# LASS / Spitfire - In the same room tutorial - Air Lyndhurst



## Black Light Recordings (Aug 31, 2014)

I was experimenting with some IRs from Numerical Sound in order to put LASS "in the same room" as Spitfire Trumpet Corps and Low Brass (Air Lyndhurst). Here is a quick vid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSbEBCBRQo4

Let me know what you guys think.

g
http://www.BlackLightRecordings.com


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## Ethos (Sep 8, 2014)

Thanks for sharing this. It's always great to see how people are blending their libraries. I have LASS and use it a lot -- although much less than I used to. Is it just me or is LASS starting to sound a bit "dated" when compared to other libraries? I'm just getting my feet wet with Berlin Strings and I also have 8dio's Adagio stuff. 

I'm wondering what Audio Bro might be working on at the moment...


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## ysnyvz (Sep 8, 2014)

No offence but I think trying to make LASS sound like Spitfire libraries is pointless
I mean why do you think Paul and Christian spend all that time and money to record whole orchestra in Air Lyndhurst with a lot of mics?


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## Walid F. (Sep 8, 2014)

ysnyvz @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> No offence but I think trying to make LASS sound like Spitfire libraries is pointless



Pointless? It's more like the _whole point_ of using reverbs; to make libraries sound as if they are in certain spaces (or just made up spaces).

And TS, that's a 5min vid of explaining and talking - not very short if i just wanna hear comparison!! Try just showing us 30-40 seconds clip of the two playing after each other next time. As I quickly just spend a minute or two and brace through VI Control for some quick news or some fun stuff to read - or listen to!



W.


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## paulmatthew (Sep 8, 2014)

ysnyvz @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> No offence but I think trying to make LASS sound like Spitfire libraries is pointless
> I mean why do you think Paul and Christian spend all that time and money to record whole orchestra in Air Lyndhurst with a lot of mics?



It is not pointless. It makes perfect sense , especially if you are using other Spitfire libraries and a string library from another developer . The logical move is to make the strings blend with the Spitfire libraries rather than the other way around. Why do you think composers spend all that time on blending their libraries? Because it works


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## ysnyvz (Sep 8, 2014)

Walid F. @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> Pointless? It's more like the _whole point_ of using reverbs; to make libraries sound as if they are in certain spaces (or just made up spaces).


let me try to clear my point.
I think using reverb and making dry libraries sound like recorded in Air studios are very different things
Even if you have IR of Air Lyndhurst and use it for LASS, the sound will still be different than Spitfire libraries
Why? Because one is real and the other is just imitation
Plus Spitfire records orchestra to analog tape with multiple mic positions


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## ysnyvz (Sep 8, 2014)

paulmatthew @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> Why do you think composers spend all that time on blending their libraries? Because it works


and why do you think Spitfire, Cinesamples, Orchestral Tools etc. try to record all of their orchestral libraries in same room even with usual seating positions?
I don't think it works. I'm sorry but this is my opinion.


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## paulmatthew (Sep 8, 2014)

I agree , it's better to have all your libraries from one developer recorded in the same room , but for a lot of us that's not a reality and we have already bought different sections from different developers in the past few years. Some developers , including Spitfire , still haven't completed releasing their full orchestral sections yet .


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## clarkus (Sep 8, 2014)

Logicology, can you give me as fulsome a review of your Berlin Strings as you have time for? It is seriously underrepresented in this Forum, I love the demos & would like to know your experience. There's been some grumbling & critique here & there, problems that needed to be addressed (or perhaps were addressed?) I am not up-to-speed. 

Also, ysnyvz, not to throw gasoline on this little fire, but none of these libraries are "real."

Spitfire recorded their strings in a hall. Many people like the sound of that (I do), but on the other hand you are stuck with that hall & there are issues some have grappled with involving build-up of low frequency room noise when using multiple samples of this kind. Also, everything is in the hall they elected, and that's not always a good marriage with samples & synths one wishes to use.

Just to get away from LASS for a moment, Vienna sampled in an anechoic chamber & avoided the issues of marrying the string performances to a hall. That means (of course) you need to assign reverb. Not everyone likes that extra step (or the result). But there are pros and cons on both sides.

In any case, none of these results are "real." Real is sitting in Davis Symphony Hall in SF listening to MTT conduct the SF Symphony. The rest of it is our little community working our wizardry with reverb and panning.


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## ysnyvz (Sep 8, 2014)

paulmatthew,
I didn't say you can't use different developers' libraries in same track 
I have different libraries and I use reverb, eq etc. like everybody else. My point is Real Room is different than Virtual Reverb. What I'm saying is that there are reasons these developers use these techniques and famous stages/halls

clarkus,
I think you misunderstood topic here. I wasn't comparing samples with real instruments. Topic is 'Room' here 
So what I mentioned 'Real' is Air Lyndhurst not samples.
I didn't say Spitfire is superior to other developers. Yes I know what VSL does and every library has pros and cons. I wasn't comparing developers either.
Also not sure why you are talking about Berlin Strings and requesting review.


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## renochew (Sep 8, 2014)

@ysnyvz
No one here trying to argue the obvious fact that a reverb can't replace the true recording in a room, is there?

A fellow try to show some hints of blending two different library. And your first comment is that it is "pointless", people try to tell you that there is situation that you do need to do it. Do you agree that there is a point now?


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## germancomponist (Sep 8, 2014)

A reverb can't replace a real room, no doubt about this!

But, it for sure makes sence to try the best using of your eq's and reverbs, if u work with more than one libary, recorded at different places!


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## clarkus (Sep 8, 2014)

Hullo again! I was asking about Berlin Strings beacuse Logicolgy said in his post (above):

"Is it just me or is LASS starting to sound a bit "dated" when compared to other libraries? I'm just getting my feet wet with Berlin Strings and I also have 8dio's Adagio stuff. "

I would like to know more about this user's experiences with this library.

Over.


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## germancomponist (Sep 8, 2014)

clarkus @ Tue Sep 09 said:


> Hullo again! I was asking about Berlin Strings beacuse Logicolgy said in his post (above):
> 
> "Is it just me or is LASS starting to sound a bit "dated" when compared to other libraries? I'm just getting my feet wet with Berlin Strings and I also have 8dio's Adagio stuff. "
> 
> ...



LASS dated??? Lol!!!


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## ysnyvz (Sep 8, 2014)

renochew @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> A fellow try to show some hints of blending two different library. And your first comment is that it is "pointless", people try to tell you that there is situation that you do need to do it. Do you agree that there is a point now?


Yes I think it's still pointless and it's not a personal thing. I'm talking about topic not OP.
Of course everyone can use any effect to change sound of a sample library. You can make LASS sound wetter, bigger, warmer, darker etc. but it will still be LASS. It won't turn to MURAL.
I mean for example VSL has a lot of orchestral libraries and they're very dry so you can use reverb and eq, right?
Then why there are a lot of other developers who make ambient libraries? 
As I wrote before I don't think that blending different libraries idea works. You just change the sound of them, you don't put them in same room.


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## clarkus (Sep 8, 2014)

ysnyvz, you say:

"I didn't say you can't use different developers' libraries in same track."

And then you say:

"As I wrote before I don't think that blending different libraries idea works."

So, um, what ARE you saying exactly?


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## ysnyvz (Sep 8, 2014)

Clarkus i say you can use different libraries and fx in same track but that doesn't put them in the same room. Especially libraries like Lass and Spitfire. Hope it's clear now


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## The Darris (Sep 8, 2014)

ysnyvz @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> No offence but I think trying to make LASS sound like Spitfire libraries is pointless
> I mean why do you think Paul and Christian spend all that time and money to record whole orchestra in Air Lyndhurst with a lot of mics?



Firstly, the obvious point is that you will never get LASS to sound like Spitfire's libraries. However, the point being here is that the OP (and many others) really like the sound of Air Lyndhurst which is why we go out of our way to mix our template with that sound in mind. Sure, you may be the one who says that you should just use the same libraries from one developer for a single cohesive sound but the fact remains that some libraries do things better than others. If you want to limit yourself because you don't want to mix libraries together and spend the time to figure out reverb settings to sound like Air, that is your prerogative. 

Calling this concept pointless is rather....well....pointless. No offense though. I don't know if you have used LASS (I haven't) but I can tell you from just looking at videos and others using it in context shows that it can do a lot that Mural, Sable, Albion, etc cannot possible do due to scripting and functionality of the library which is something that I am highly attracted to but have yet to fork over the money for. 

Finally, LASS is a lot dryer and since it is the user's strings library that they have to work with, their only option is to mix it to sound as if it were in Air. At least, if you want to get a somewhat accurate representation of an orchestra playing together in the same space.


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## ysnyvz (Sep 9, 2014)

The Darris @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> Firstly, the obvious point is that you will never get LASS to sound like Spitfire's libraries.


Yes that's why I said it's pointless.
But obviously you focused on my first post. I tried to explain a few times. As I wrote before, I am not comparing different libraries. I'm not saying LASS is a bad library. I'm not saying is Spitfire libraries are better than anything else. I am talking about specific things like "LASS and Spitfire in same room" and "Real Room vs. Virtual Reverb"
Here I will try again. Let's say you went to Air Lyndhurst and shouted in the middle of room for a second. You will hear two sounds. First, vibraton of your bones in your middle ear. Second, vibration of room which is called "Echo". Now room itself and everything in the room can make this echo unique and complex. And reverb plugins work in a very simple way comparing to this. May be someday 3d rendering reverbs will come out and we will get closer to the real thing.


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## Guy Rowland (Sep 9, 2014)

Sounds perfectly good to me, g.

I see the thread is already off on the tangent it probably won't be able to shake. Of course the two won't sound exactly the same, of course you'll never get the space to respond in an identical fashion. Like all VIs and all samples, you're just performing tricks and slight of hand. Spitfire do their own tricks to capture that space and make it playable of course. But no-one should kid themselves that playing a keyboard of tiny individual samples recorded in a given room all stitched together in real time is the same as those great musicians playing the same line live in that space. It takes great skill from developer and user to fool the ear well. So all developers are using bags of tricks, none of them capture "reality" (except phrases, which have their own obvious limitations) - you just have to choose your tricks, then add some more of your own to try to make them fit together.

On a continuum, you have totally dry libraries at one end. They might be able to stitch together those samples pretty well, but will need totally artificial space round them. At the other end, you have the ambient libraries - typically its very hard to stitch those samples together well without compromising that space that made you record there in the first place. I notice that CineStrings actually almost treated their legato patches like a dry library, truncating all those real space tails to make the joins good, then replace with artificial reverb to make up the shortfall - worked very well to my ears. LASS is towards the drier end, but nowhere near as dry as VSL or Sample Modelling.

(nb - if you don't use true legato, the problems of ambient libraries are way easier to deal with)

All you're after is some trickery to fool the ear enough so that all your different sample libraries sound roughly consistent, and sounds to me like you're doing a perfectly fine job there. Carry on!


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## MichaelL (Sep 9, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Tue Sep 09 said:


> (nb - if you don't use true legato, the problems of ambient libraries are way easier to deal with)




???? Do you mind elaborating Guy?

I appreciate this thread. Very timely for me.

Earlier this year, I bought VSS and the Numerical Sound IR's for the very same reason...to see if a I could approximate the Air Lyndhurst sound....not Spitfire's. I have haven't had a chance to try it yet. I also bought Numerical's Timbral Impulse collection for LASS. 

One bug that's been holding me back is that the Numerical IR's apparently work with Altiverb 6, but not 7. (maybe that's been fixed)

_Michael


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## Guy Rowland (Sep 9, 2014)

MichaelL @ Tue Sep 09 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Tue Sep 09 said:
> 
> 
> > (nb - if you don't use true legato, the problems of ambient libraries are way easier to deal with)
> ...



Let's say you're playing C to G in a legato phrase. Sample 1 will be C sustain, sample 2 will be the legato transition from C to G (very short, usually), then Sample 3 will be the G sustain. As you play these two notes, the sampler has to play these three samples seamlessly so you can't hear the join, crossfading by varying amounts.

The problem with ambient legato comes from the tails, especially from Sample 2. That transition echoes around the hall. You might well be ok on this simple example, but if you then play a scale up through A, B and C fairly rapidly, you end up with these tails all over the place, and it all turns to mush. So what CineSamples did with CineStrings (I only get this this just by listening) is that they truncated all those Sample 2s so you could play nimbly, of course creating a new problem that the space collapses before your very ears. Their solution is to use artificial reverb to glue the joins - pragmatically that works pretty well actually, even though you're effectively doing away with at least part of the very thing that made you record there in the first place.

Orchestral Tools and Spitfire have tried a new solution where different speeds of transition are recorded, and the sampler chooses different samples depending on how fast you play. I've played with the Sable legato speed detection patch, and it works very well. In general however, if you're working with dry samples, all those transitions are much, much easier to make smooth and not hear the joins. So it CAN be done with ambient libraries - at least considerably better than days of old - but as a developer you'd need to factor in a lot more time into your editing and programming to make it comparable with a dry library.

So needless to say, regular patches don't have these problems to contend with.


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## MichaelL (Sep 9, 2014)

Thanks Guy!


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## paulmatthew (Sep 9, 2014)

That's great info Guy. It's good to know these things about libraries . Have you written any articles pertaining to this yet? I'd be interested in reading more on this topic.


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## clarkus (Sep 9, 2014)

Thanks for your comments, Guy. Educational, for sure. I didn't know that it was the transitions creating all this trouble.

Getting back to the OP:

"I was experimenting with some IRs from Numerical Sound in order to put LASS "in the same room" as Spitfire Trumpet Corps and Low Brass (Air Lyndhurst). Here is a quick vid. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSbEBCBRQo4 

Let me know what you guys think. 

g 
www.BlackLightRecordings.com"

I like the reverb results, which is what you were going for, g. 

In the course of processing it sounds (to my ears) that the actually timbre of Lass moved farther away from Spitfire rather than closer. This is based, of course, on a small sample of material played low-fi over YouTube, so should be taken with several grain of salt. But what I wondered is about the FabFilter EQ cuts that you introduced, which look to me a bit radical. I totally get why you're rolling off that low-end. But wondered why the big slice taken out of the mids, and if that may be contributing to the considerably darker sound of LASS in the end-product. 

Obviously, you came to that choice based on your ears (as you say). I'd be interested what the side-by-side comparison would be without the EQ. 

And there's no reason LASS need sound the same, as the point is to complement one library with another.

Do you find after going to this trouble that you're able to create sections that are fuller & more "realistic." Or is the point, for you (as Guy & Darris & others have talked about) to have access to the different features & articulations of the various libraries?

I sometimes wish one could bookmark threads within this Forum, and / or that there was a way to link them, as this topic of "How to make different libraries live together" is a big one that a lot of people have written about. Great conversations seem to come & go sometimes & it's not always easy for me to dredge them up, even with a keyword search.

Or is there a way to use this Forum more usefully that I've missed?

And sorry if that's off-topic.

Thanks, g, for sharing your experience & results.


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## Guy Rowland (Sep 9, 2014)

paulmatthew @ Tue Sep 09 said:


> That's great info Guy. It's good to know these things about libraries . Have you written any articles pertaining to this yet?



No - I'd feel very under-qualified, I'm strictly a non-programmer who has just had this as a hobby horse for years!


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## MichaelL (Sep 11, 2014)

[quote="clarkus @ Tue Sep 09, 2014 11:30 am"
In the course of processing it sounds (to my ears) that the actually timbre of Lass moved farther away from Spitfire rather than closer. ....

And there's no reason LASS need sound the same, as the point is to complement one library with another.

[/quote]


+1

Numerical addresses LASS timbral issues with this: http://numericalsound.com/hollywood_sound_ti_lass.html

I'm not sure how much farther it goes than LASS's "stage and color." I haven't had a chance to use it yet.


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## clarkus (Sep 11, 2014)

Would be interesting - as always - to hear the processed result next to same passage played with another library. This is really the cruelest test for sampled string libraries, to hear these passages naked.


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## Black Light Recordings (Sep 15, 2014)

Wow guys. I was out of the country all last week so I missed all of this real time. Thanks for all of the input. Let's see hear:

ysbyvz – The point is not to get LASS to sound like Mural. If that were the case, I would just USE Mural (I own them both). The point is do be able to use Trumpet Corp and SF Low Brass in the same composition with LASS and have the listener's ears not tell them “something is off”. The timbre of the two is still and always will be different. That't not was I was going for. “In the same room” is always a bit of a stretch in terminology. “Getting LASS to sound like it is in a room that is close enough to the room Spitfire Libraries were recorded in so that a composition that uses both doesn't sound freaky” would have been way to long of a subject for the post. 8) 

Logicology – I don't think LASS sounds dated. The reason I replaced Mural with LASS in my template is because I do a lot more divisi writing now. Writing a unison line that splits into divisi for thirds then comes back to unison sounds amazing in LASS. Keeping the same number of players keeps the orchestral weight the same and it rewards composers who write with orchestral balance in mind.

Guy – As always, thanks for the knowledge. One more nugget to put in the arsenal.

Clarkus – I think the ultimate test will be when I compose an entire piece. If Trumpet Corp, Low Brass, and LASS sit well together in the mix and sound natural together then this works. Nothing is perfect but if the average listener (who has no idea what VI Control is) likes it in context; then I did my job.

g


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## jcs88 (Sep 22, 2014)

I know LASS 2.0 was just released, but I wish LASS would have a complete UI/GUI overhaul. I don't find the sound dated (thought quite dry at first instances can make it seem so), but I feel I've wasted my money because I hardly use the library. Maybe time to set up a track stack in Logic with it.

Definite merit in trying to put things in the same room though - my sample library too is a patchwork of different developers. I've not got there yet, so appreciate videos like this.


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## Guy Rowland (Sep 22, 2014)

jcs88 @ Mon Sep 22 said:


> I know LASS 2.0 was just released, but I wish LASS would have a complete UI/GUI overhaul. I don't find the sound dated (thought quite dry at first instances can make it seem so), but I feel I've wasted my money because I hardly use the library. Maybe time to set up a track stack in Logic with it.
> 
> Definite merit in trying to put things in the same room though - my sample library too is a patchwork of different developers. I've not got there yet, so appreciate videos like this.



Here's the thing with LASS - it needs more time spent upfront with it than other libraries, but the trade off is that, once done, it needs less time spent with it in day to day use than other libraries. It's a programming masterpiece. It's definitely best used as part of a template, not adhoc loading. Basically you need to first decide how you'd like to work with it, spend a day or two making it do what you want, then forget all about that painful setting up and just use it. With great power comes great responsibility or something - it's so versatile it can be daunting.

I do have a little video of how I set mine up, just going through the basic concepts really - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFrhtGthJfA


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## jcs88 (Sep 22, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Mon Sep 22 said:


> jcs88 @ Mon Sep 22 said:
> 
> 
> > I know LASS 2.0 was just released, but I wish LASS would have a complete UI/GUI overhaul. I don't find the sound dated (thought quite dry at first instances can make it seem so), but I feel I've wasted my money because I hardly use the library. Maybe time to set up a track stack in Logic with it.
> ...



I've got that bookmarked but yet to watch it. It's my mission for this weekend once this project is out of the way. I'm really getting on with Patches in Logic, one load for all my CS2 Longs etc. I think I'll do as you say - fiddle with Lass until it's all sitting nicely, then save it as a patch. I will struggle a little with the A.R.C as I generally have one track - one Kontakt instance - one articulation, which makes the stage/colour stuff a little long in the tooth.

Thanks again, Guy~


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## murrthecat (Oct 8, 2014)

The 'Batman' Stage and Color setting in LASS... 

wouldn't it be a good starting point to get closer to an Air Lyndhurst sound?
It sounds warm and full enough to my ears.

I remember that's what Guy uses (or used?).


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## Guy Rowland (Oct 8, 2014)

murrthecat @ Wed Oct 08 said:


> The 'Batman' Stage and Color setting in LASS...
> 
> wouldn't it be a good starting point to get closer to an Air Lyndhurst sound?
> It sounds warm and full enough to my ears.
> ...



I keep changing my mind on the tone, and which way to go to be honest, but Batman sounds good to me too. I still use that profile for the color, and put my own room round it (though apart from anything else that's just to keep the Kontakt resources light). Airy is another good one.


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## murrthecat (Oct 8, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Wed Oct 08 said:


> murrthecat @ Wed Oct 08 said:
> 
> 
> > The 'Batman' Stage and Color setting in LASS...
> ...



I keep changing my mind on the tone, too, Guy! When I turned the Batman profile on yesterday, I quite liked the reverb, too. "Lost" is another good one for me when I need a dark, punchier sound. Darker colors work better for me. I'll check "Airy" but I remember it is on the brighter side.


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## clarkus (Oct 8, 2014)

Is this "auto arranger" business within LASS? & what is it doing? The explanation I'm hearing here is that it's taking 16 violins & breaking them into small sections. But in what sense? Are the strings coming in less precisely together for more realism, or is it working with the spatial relationship? Whatever it's doing, I suddenly like LASS.


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## Guy Rowland (Oct 8, 2014)

clarkus @ Wed Oct 08 said:


> Is this "auto arranger" business within LASS? & what is it doing? The explanation I'm hearing here is that it's taking 16 violins & breaking them into small sections. But in what sense? Are the string coming in less precisely together for more realism, or is it working with the spatial relationship? Whatever it's doing, I suddenly like LASS.



So with (full) LASS you have four sections that make up an ensemble - A, B, C and First Chair - 8 players, 2x4 players and solo in the case of violins. All of these groups were recorded separately - different players and instruments I understand. Auto Arranger splits up chordal playing so its the right number of total players playing, as opposed to 3x16=48 players in a triad. On top of that, there are complex rules you can set up on the Auto Arranger page to muck about further with timing and tuning, what instruments lead and so on. If you like string writing using chords, it's still the best system out there - to me that AA switch is quite subtle but it's like a real / not real switch.


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## clarkus (Oct 8, 2014)

Hi, Guy - Are some of the "complex rules" implemented in the default setting (i.e. you hit the button & this is what you get), or have you tweaked it a bit.

I'm following this up in a more granular way as I agree: the results are terrific!


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## Guy Rowland (Oct 8, 2014)

clarkus @ Wed Oct 08 said:


> Hi, Guy - Are some of the "complex rules" implemented in the default setting (i.e. you hit the button & this is what you get), or have you tweaked it a bit.
> 
> I'm following this up in a more granular way as I agree: the results are terrific!



Yes - their multis have them all set up good to go. Can't remember off the top of my head if there's a default without using a multi - I think there is (based on 3 parts), and it's what I normally use. I'm not sure I've ever tweaked the 2nd page with the real minutiae, just the main page with the basic rules.


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## pixel (Oct 8, 2014)

Thanks *Black Light Recordings*. I think that you make a good job with it. Of course I have only ears, not PRO ears so I'm far away from be an oracle :wink: 

For sure one day I'll find it usefull

Ps. talking about pointless is pointless


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## Black Light Recordings (Nov 5, 2014)

jcs88 @ Mon Sep 22 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Mon Sep 22 said:
> 
> 
> > jcs88 @ Mon Sep 22 said:
> ...



Hey JCS the new preset multis from Audiobro can speed up your setup time as well.


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