# Need Advice on Writing for Choir and Orchestra



## waveheavy (Jun 28, 2015)

As per the traditional choir, how do you apply SATB to a combination of female and male voices?


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## waveheavy (Jun 28, 2015)

waveheavy said:


> As per the traditional choir, how do you apply SATB to a combination of female and male voices?



I guess, what I'm asking is, how do you traditionally spread the female and male voice ranges. Should male voices only every cover tenor and bass?


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## muk (Jun 29, 2015)

It's a bit of a curious question, as the SATB you mention as reference ARE the human voices. There is not a lot of room to do it differently, because the range of the human voice is obviously limited. So, no, a tenor can not sing in the soprano range (let's forget about counter-tenors for a moment, as you don't usually have them in a choir). And neither can a bass. Adjacent voice registers can cross each other, but a bass will never sing in the soprano register. Use the basses in the bass register, tenor in the tenor register and so on. Females will cover the soprano and alto register, males the tenor and bass.
Just a reminder to avoid confusion: the tenor is often written in the suboctave clef. It's a treble clef with a little 8 beneath it - which means that it is one octave lower than the treble clef. Upon first glance it may look as the tenor are in the same range as the altos, but they are lower.

Read up about the singing voices and their ranges, that way you won't end up writing unsingable stuff.


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## bbunker (Jun 29, 2015)

Well...there are boy choirs in the Anglophonic world, which perform SATB material and are entirely male voices, but I wouldn't guess that that's what you're referring to.

If you're using the idea of "SATB" purely academically and not literally, so that the question is more of a "could you distribute the voices of traditional harmony differently than just women on top and men below?" then the answer would be "yes, there are a number of ways that voices are combined in active choirs. There are SSA and SAA pieces, where the 'bass' is sung by the Altos. And there are TTB, TBB and TTBB pieces for sure, but the 'Soprano' part is sung in a Tenor's range - it would only ever be a 'Soprano' by nature of positioning.


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## Farkle (Jun 29, 2015)

Hi, there!

To chime in on your question, I'm a big believer in "compose and orchestrate in a way that is natural for the performers, and allows you to move forward quickly." So, I really try to keep an SATB spread in my voicings, meaning, the sopranos are always in their range, always above the altos, the altos are always in their range, etc. I try not to voice cross too much.

Now, in another point, I feel like there are two main "ways" to score for choir with orchestra. The first way is to score choir in an SATB context, where it's really like a 3-part vertical "chord" between soprano, alto, tenor, and the bass is functioning, well, as a bass.  That structure works well in an orchestral context, where the choir is functioning as the main point of attention; maybe the strings and winds are supporting/counter-playing against it, but the choir is kind of the "main point" at that point of the orchestration.

But, you can ALSO score the choir like so. Divide the women up into a 3-part chordal structure, and then double that exact structure an octave below in the men (Tenor, Bari, Bass). You get an octave doubled triad, that sounds really big and epic.

Here's a great example from Vaughan Wiliams Sea Symphony (first :20 when the choir chants "Behold the Sea")



And, John Williams takes a variation of that (5-part stacked chordal structure) on "Duel of the Fates"



This second structure works really well when the choir is part of the total orchestral texture, and totally does the "epic" thing really well.

Is this what you were asking about?

Mike


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## Luke W (Jun 29, 2015)

I agree with everything mentioned and would add a caution: just because your hands can play it on piano doesn't mean it will automatically work just as well for voices. As you compose a section, stop and sing (not play!) each part through individually. If you have trouble singing the intervals or making the line sound musical, then the choir will too. The best part writing is when each voice part is musical and singable on its own.


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## waveheavy (Jul 1, 2015)

Just what I was looking for. Thanks a million folks!

I had planned to use a strict SATB context, but also with the female and male sections each performing separate parts at different times with the orchestra. So I didn't want to mess up with assigning an alto part to the men's choir section, etc. I have a basic understanding of writing for choir SATB, but I've not done anything where the orchestra is only accompanying the choir. Usually the other way around. 

The other problem I'm having wrapping my head around this, when considering composition where the orchestra is the accompaniment most of the time, I keep thinking of opera pieces.


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## Farkle (Jul 1, 2015)

waveheavy said:


> Just what I was looking for. Thanks a million folks!
> 
> I had planned to use a strict SATB context, but also with the female and male sections each performing separate parts at different times with the orchestra. So I didn't want to mess up with assigning an alto part to the men's choir section, etc. I have a basic understanding of writing for choir SATB, but I've not done anything where the orchestra is only accompanying the choir. Usually the other way around.
> 
> The other problem I'm having wrapping my head around this, when considering composition where the orchestra is the accompaniment most of the time, I keep thinking of opera pieces.



Using the SATB will work A-OK, if you decide to have each section performing separately (just a men's section, just a women's section), scoring the TB and SA in thirds works beautifully. Singers tune to thirds and sixths very well, so that will give you a nice, rich coupling.

Hm. Regarding orchestra as the accompaniment? Opera (especially the 19th century italians, Bellini, Rossini) is a great place to check out. Also, check out Samuel Barber's "Knoxville: Summer of 1915". Very delicate open orchestral accompaniment for a solo voice. That can give you some good orchestration ideas.


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## waveheavy (Jul 2, 2015)

Thanks again for the tips!

Dave


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## waveheavy (Jul 20, 2015)

Farkle said:


> Hi, there!
> 
> Now, in another point, I feel like there are two main "ways" to score for choir with orchestra. The first way is to score choir in an SATB context, where it's really like a 3-part vertical "chord" between soprano, alto, tenor, and the bass is functioning, well, as a bass.  That structure works well in an orchestral context, where the choir is functioning as the main point of attention; maybe the strings and winds are supporting/counter-playing against it, but the choir is kind of the "main point" at that point of the orchestration.
> 
> ...



Yes, thanks Mike,

The more I think about what you said there, the more useful it becomes for what I'm doing. I've noticed John Williams likes to spread out the strings in multiple octaves for a big string sound too. In the tutti parts of what I'm working on, your idea of separating the female and male sections in octaves might work great. Thanks!

Dave


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## wpc982 (Jul 20, 2015)

Before you start writing 8 voice 7th chords read in a harmony book about allocating voices in more than four parts. Crudely duplicating a perfectly good 4-voice texture up or down an octave will result in a crude sound, less good than the original, nearly always.


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## Farkle (Jul 21, 2015)

waveheavy said:


> Yes, thanks Mike,
> 
> The more I think about what you said there, the more useful it becomes for what I'm doing. I've noticed John Williams likes to spread out the strings in multiple octaves for a big string sound too. In the tutti parts of what I'm working on, your idea of separating the female and male sections in octaves might work great. Thanks!
> 
> Dave



You are quite welcome! As always, take this idea as one man's idea, and definitely check it against existing scores (especially JW scores, always a master class in orchestration!). 

Best,

Mike


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