# Motorised Faders For Midi CC - Why No Options?



## procreative (Jan 9, 2017)

I have seen this thread but did not want to wreck it: http://vi-control.net/community/threads/faderctrl-universal-midi-controller.58734/

Looks a very nice unit, but to me $250 for non motorised faders seems a lot (but I do get its due to low build numbers).

Now take a product like this: http://iconproaudio.com/product/platform-x/





Has motorised faders, low cost etc. BUT I do not think even though it says it can be custom mapped, it will have midi feedback enabling bi-directional communication.

Thing is having the faders show the current position of a CC in a track has its uses:

1. Fader is always in the right position, no more twiddling it to get it to sync.
2. Overdubbing changes becomes easier.

Now I know (at least in Logic) you could fiddle about in the environment to make the controls input CC data, but not sure how you would create midi feedback.

So why are there no options out there?


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## ThomasL (Jan 9, 2017)

The cost would be greater than its use. If it only ticks of those two points on your list I'd say why bother?

If you want MIDI feedback on something like this from Logic then you'd need to bug Apple about it. You need to have some sort of setup so that Logic knows what CC you have on each fader, everytime you select another channel it needs to check what that channels CC values are and send that, if you select a different CC for a fader then Logic needs to send THAT info over again. It is something that is not in the MIDI standard. Each and every DAW maker would have to implement it.

"But all this already works for volume and pan", yes. But EVERY track have volume and pan, audio as well as MIDI.

I see this come up now and again and I just can't understand the need. How many seconds/month do you save, really?


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 9, 2017)

procreative said:


> So why are there no options out there?



[COUGH - Avid Artist and Cubase. Aside from the others further up the respective ranges, it's literally the only option for motorised CC, volume, pan, aux control that follows your channel movements in the DAW and is the reason I switched to Cubase 5 or 6 years ago. Still nothing to challenge it]


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## procreative (Jan 9, 2017)

ThomasL said:


> The cost would be greater than its use. If it only ticks of those two points on your list I'd say why bother?
> 
> If you want MIDI feedback on something like this from Logic then you'd need to bug Apple about it. You need to have some sort of setup so that Logic knows what CC you have on each fader, everytime you select another channel it needs to check what that channels CC values are and send that, if you select a different CC for a fader then Logic needs to send THAT info over again. It is something that is not in the MIDI standard. Each and every DAW maker would have to implement it.
> 
> ...



Honestly, I get your points, but without midi feedback the controls dont know what position they are in so when you try to record CC data, unless you move the controls min/max, they are not in the right position physically so will not record the data from the correct point.

For example I have Komplete Kontrol and in Midi Mode, the 8 continuous controllers can theoretically turn infinitely. But in midi mode they default to showing as if at 127 or max. But when you try to use them the data they spit out is not.

And if you want to punch in and change the data, you have no point of reference.


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## procreative (Jan 9, 2017)

Guy Rowland said:


> [COUGH - Avid Artist and Cubase. Aside from the others further up the respective ranges, it's literally the only option for motorised CC, volume, pan, aux control that follows your channel movements in the DAW and is the reason I switched to Cubase 5 or 6 years ago. Still nothing to challenge it]



Wish I could justify moving from Logic, but just for this feature alone (and maybe Expression Maps) its a bit too little to make me do it.

Out of interest why does this only work in Cubase, have they programmed a special mode just for it?


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## ThomasL (Jan 9, 2017)

So what you really want is a controller that "softly takes over" the data, in other words, sends relative data changes, not absolutes.

That has very little to do with MIDI feedback.


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## procreative (Jan 9, 2017)

Well that is okay, but I would prefer what Guy said he already has. A fader that controls say CC11 on a focused track, that when I switch to a track with data on it or one with a default level of say 100, updates and always enters data at the position it starts from because the fader is showing what is in the track not some physical position.


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## tack (Jan 9, 2017)

I do this with Reaper, using a custom script (which I will share at some point). I have the Platform-M and use it in custom mode. Some of my faders I use for volume and automation (either with my DAW or RME TotalMix FX), others I use for CC control. All of them are bidirectionally synced. Last CC values per track are remembered and the CC faders are adjusted on track select. (Also my Kontrol S88 encoders are also synced on track select.)

I agree this really should be easier in all DAWs out of the box.


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## procreative (Jan 9, 2017)

Doubt this can be done in Logic unfortunately. Just don't understand why this has never been implemented seeing as Midi CC has been in Midi spec since day one more than 30 years ago. And why neither Eucon or MCU protocols dont have a native Midi layer is daft.

I know I once managed bi-directional in a D8B using Midi but it involved cabling every track with Transformers so was totally impractical for every day use. But that was for volume.

Guess that answer my question on the Platform-X I asked Icon, that it cannot natively do bi-directional CC.


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 9, 2017)

procreative said:


> Out of interest why does this only work in Cubase, have they programmed a special mode just for it?



Well kind of - Cubase has 8 Quick Controls for each track which can control pretty much anything in a plugin or on the track, including midi CCs. The special trick is that by pressing and holding the EQ button, the Avid Artist can control the 8 Quick Controls, complete with dynamic labels so you never get lost and always know where you are. And - this can't be overstated - only the EuCon protocol can automatically follow you as you move around the DAW. Have a 1,000 track template? No problem, the surface simply follows whatever track you click on. With Mackie / Hui, you have to manually bank, a chore that would send me to the asylum on a large project.

So it works great - and the QCs have presets, you can copy them from track to track etc. The only drawback is that you have to record it as automation data in the project window, so it doesn't appear as midi controller data in the key editor. Personally I'm fine with it, not 100% perfect but no deal-breaker for me.


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## procreative (Jan 9, 2017)

Well in Logic, the Mackie Control does automatically bank to whatever page the track you are on so maybe thats a flaw with the Cubase version of it. Logic has Smart Controls, so I wonder if they would respond as you can define what these are for a track and these also record as automation. BUT I cannot work out if you can create a Smart Control template to be the default for all Software Instrument tracks.

And I am not about to buy an Artist Mix to try...

Its so stupid that I have a Mackie Control but its too dumb to have any mode other than one at a time and the choices are either Mackie Control, Logic Control or HUI. Pity unlike the Komplete Kontrol it does not have an assignable "Midi Mode".


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## Pixelee (Jan 9, 2017)

So it works great - and the QCs have presets said:


> Could you clarify this part? What's QC and this automation applies for plugins or midi ccs?


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## procreative (Jan 9, 2017)

Pixelee said:


> Could you clarify this part? What's QC and this automation applies for plugins or midi ccs?



Quick Controls, its the Cubase version of Smart Controls in Logic I think.


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## Karsten Vogt (Jan 9, 2017)

procreative said:


> Looks a very nice unit, but to me $250 for non motorised faders seems a lot (but I do get its due to low build numbers).


Actually, it's pretty cheap. 8x100mm Faders are about 80 bucks, the micro controller costs 25$. I don't know about the case (20$?), cables, tin-solder. And that's only the hardware. This thing has to be assembled and tested. And there is software development. Ok, most of the software code is freely available. I wouldn't build that thing for that little margin.

I got a Faderport 8 and I love it. 



This guy seems to do these tutorials for newbies or kids (dunno), but you should get the idea.


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## procreative (Jan 9, 2017)

Well when you consider the above product. Its bigger sibling the Platform M sells for about $285 and this other version is more cut down so I would estimate it will be more like $230 ish.

Except it cannot automate its faders in CC mode (it has one).

So back to square one especially in Logic Pro.

Visually it looks a nice little unit but as they are passive faders and nothing else?


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## Karsten Vogt (Jan 9, 2017)

Well, there is a reason for the icon stuff being so cheap. Friend of mine ordered a Platform M. The faders were a bit noisy yet ok but the buttons were terrible. Skewy and some wouldn't pop back into position. 
Platform M is 299€, too much for the quality.


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## procreative (Jan 9, 2017)

I do not disagree the build quality might not be better as its built by hand and the case looks nice, but to me $250 for something that does what a lot of other dumb controllers can do is too much and no scribble strips to show what each fader does...

But that aside, seems nobody has a solution for cc controllers that are bi-directional.


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## tack (Jan 9, 2017)

procreative said:


> Except it cannot automate its faders in CC mode (it has one).


I'm not sure what you mean. It can receive MIDI CCs as input and sync the faders to the current values. The limitation seems to more to do with DAWs than the control surface. If you can get your DAW to send current CC values on track select (as I've done with Reaper) then it works well. (Sorry, above I had said I had the Platform-X but I meant I had the Platform-M. Edited to correct.)

Oh, unless you were talking about the Platform-X just then? I'm surprised that iCON said it can't do bidirectional CCs as I'd expect it should work like the Platform-M which can. Unless the question was phrased ambiguously?

Here's what I sent iCON about the Platform-M:



> Greetings iCON team,
> 
> I am considering purchasing the Platform M and I have a (hopefully) simple question about the product behaviour that I wasn't able to see described in the manual:
> 
> When a fader is set to user defined mode -- for example, suppose it is configured to send CC7 on channel 4 -- is it possible to set the motorized fader's position by sending it a specific CC7 value on channel 4?



Here was their reply:



> [...]You may assign a specific CC value to any fader on Platform M. Apart from the CC7 value, there is another value will be send to the fader and that is 0-127 which will determine the fader position. So, you may send a CC7 + the position value between 0-127 to the fader.[...]


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## tack (Jan 9, 2017)

Karsten Vogt said:


> The faders were a bit noisy yet ok but the buttons were terrible. Skewy and some wouldn't pop back into position.


I agree with this. "A bit noisy but ok" is true, and I have also noticed they don't move for fairly small value deltas. I don't necessarily have a problem with the buttons though. The encoders are a bit rough feeling.

I'd happily buy something else but the limiting factor for me isn't budget but space. The Platform-M is perfect in size for my desk. Other options I looked at were much too deep or tall.


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## procreative (Jan 9, 2017)

tack said:


> I'm not sure what you mean. It can receive MIDI CCs as input and sync the faders to the current values. The limitation seems to more to do with DAWs than the control surface. If you can get your DAW to send current CC values on track select (as I've done with Reaper) then it works well. (Sorry, above I had said I had the Platform-X but I meant I had the Platform-M. Edited to correct.)



Well they replied to me that they didnt think it was Bi-Directional in non-MCU mode.

Now theoretically you can do what you say. But maybe Reaper is unique, Cubase as far as I know is the only DAW that can get close. But Logic Pro will not do this, you just cannot map controls and get midi feedback.

It would require a control surface plugin. But none of the ones in Logic are anything other than Eucon, MCU, HUI or Logic Control emulations from what I have seen.

By the way Platform X is the XT of the M, even more compact. Not on sale yet, but perfect for this type of use. If only there were a way to do CC control with fader feedback.


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## Ashermusic (Jan 9, 2017)

procreative said:


> I do not disagree the build quality might not be better as its built by hand and the case looks nice, but to me $250 for something that does what a lot of other dumb controllers can do is too much and no scribble strips to show what each fader does...
> 
> But that aside, seems nobody has a solution for cc controllers that are bi-directional.



Try finding _anything_ in that price range with quality, good feeling, fairly long throw faders. If they exist, I am not aware of them.


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## FriFlo (Jan 10, 2017)

And this is me ranting once more regarding that topic ... it is about time that daw developers think about a good bidirectional midi support for sample libraries! Not only for the sake of motorized faders, but also for the incredible possibilities of total access and instant overview of all parameters of every software instrument and library instrument within your template. You can set this up very easily with e.g.Lemur on an iPad. So, you can see instrument name, all CC parameter values and keyswitches as they are currently are. All available, labeled by names, color coded and ready for touch access at one glance on your iPad as you select a track. I kind of made that work, but it is a pita to set it up and requires a utility program running and almost programming skills (I use max msp for that).
Cubase is closest to what would be needed, these are the problems:
Quick controls can be used to generate feedback for CCs, but ...
... there are only 8 parameters available per track, which is not enough! We need all instrument parameters integrated in this way.
... there is no touch option to overwrite existing values and turn back to existing values, once you let go the fader.
... for midi editing it is essential to be able to see notes and CCs aligned in one window with instant access and all editing tools that the key editor offers. Quick controls don't show up there ...
IMO it is about time that people join forces and demand that kind of functionality from Steinberg. I will probably make a video this year and start some petition.  If time allows ...


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## procreative (Jan 10, 2017)

FriFlo said:


> And this is me ranting once more regarding that topic ... it is about time that daw developers think about a good bidirectional midi support for sample libraries! Not only for the sake of motorized faders, but also for the incredible possibilities of total access and instant overview of all parameters of every software instrument and library instrument within your template. You can set this up very easily with e.g.Lemur on an iPad. So, you can see instrument name, all CC parameter values and keyswitches as they are currently are. All available, labeled by names, color coded and ready for touch access at one glance on your iPad as you select a track. I kind of made that work, but it is a pita to set it up and requires a utility program running and almost programming skills (I use max msp for that).
> Cubase is closest to what would be needed, these are the problems:
> Quick controls can be used to generate feedback for CCs, but ...
> ... there are only 8 parameters available per track, which is not enough! We need all instrument parameters integrated in this way.
> ...



Well at least in Cubase you have Quick Controls, in Logic we only have "Smart" controls but they dont offer bidirectional midi. I spent about 2 hours last night experimenting and got nowhere.

Maybe we are in the minority as most people seem to say "what do you need that for". I just find it silly that you have to wiggle a controller to make it align with the data in the DAW and that switching tracks does not update said fader.

And I have looked and looked and there just is not a solution out there. Maybe its possible with TouchOSC but a physical fader is so much more instant and obvious (to me).


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## FriFlo (Jan 10, 2017)

Logic is behind in a lot of things, but that was a "logical" (pun intended) consequence of being bought by apple and making it darn cheap in the app store. I appreciate the fact, that it is so inexpensive and you got free updates for many years since version 10. But it was kind of predictable, it would not be on the front line with cutting edge new stuff ...
That being said, for the money you pay each year for the upgrades, Steinberg did not really do great features and was slow and lazy in fixing old problems. I am currently not really happy with any DAW, as far as I can see. Not to say, there are not great options out there, depending on how you like to work and what your focus is on! But for orchestral library handling, every DAW out there is more or less years behind what would have been possible for about 5 years now (and actually not that complicated or resource hungry)!
That is why I think, there should be kind of a lobby group of film composers to push that forward. The only problem is, that people would have to know, what they could have and what it would do great for them and you have to be really deep into technology to fancy that. Let's see, I might try to present that idea this year ...


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## jcrosby (Jan 17, 2017)

Motorized control of MIDI would be very useful. (and for those that have it consider me envious ) Sure seems like a more useful way to take advantage of a motorized surface than just as a mixer controller... 
I wonder if Logic's Scripter might offer a way around this? 

I've read some tutorials here and there but they're all pretty rudimentary. I'd imagine scripter can go deeper than where most of these leave off... Anyone familiar enough with scripter to know if it might provide an answer?


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## procreative (Jan 17, 2017)

I have spent days hunting for solutions out there, none exist. I also experimented and found a way using the environment in Logic, but its unworkable as it requires a Transformer and Midi object on every track separately - impractical for a large template. Plus I reckon on playback every track would be trying to communicate as there would be no Track Focus so all tracks would be sending data.

The only possible way is if a dev were to find a way to write a Midi Controller plugin for Logic, but I have a feeling the stuff used for the MCU relies on automation data and CC just will not ever work bidirectional in the same way.

I think Guy's Cubase solution using what it calls Quick Controls is the likely solution basically using automation to drive a CC. Alternatively some way of sending automation to the faders driven by a CC basically hacking an MCU fader to send out CC data to the track but automation to the fader.


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## jcrosby (Jan 17, 2017)

Hmmm, yeah I know it's possible in the environment but as you said it's a less than ideal solution... I posted basically the same question on Logicprohelp just to see what some of the ninjas over there say... I'm sure the consensus here is right but every once in a while those guys pull a rabbit out of a hat I didn't know was right there the whole time... I'm going to send a nagging email to icon as welll, fruitless as it may be...


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## procreative (Jan 18, 2017)

Icon support told me they would look into it, their Platform X product would be perfect as a CC controller (when its released) and the optional add-on display is a masterstroke.

I am not hopeful that there is a solution (with Logic) unless Apple make some fundamental changes to its core features (which given their more consumer philosophy these days is less likely).

Still feel that even in 2017, there are some major workflow issues for writing in a DAW mostly related to ergonomics and control. The whole CC/Automation lane stuff is still very cumbersome to manage.


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## jcrosby (Jan 19, 2017)

procreative said:


> Still feel that even in 2017, there are some major workflow issues for writing in a DAW mostly related to ergonomics and control. The whole CC/Automation lane stuff is still very cumbersome to manage.



Couldn't agree more... I've thought about this for some time myself and still don't understand why DAWs haven't streamlined MIDI automation since it's become integral to most modern music, regardless of genre...


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## Nmargiotta (Jan 21, 2017)

procreative said:


> Well in Logic, the Mackie Control does automatically bank to whatever page the track you are on so maybe thats a flaw with the Cubase version of it. Logic has Smart Controls, so I wonder if they would respond as you can define what these are for a track and these also record as automation. BUT I cannot work out if you can create a Smart Control template to be the default for all Software Instrument tracks.
> 
> And I am not about to buy an Artist Mix to try...


I have an Artist Mix a few of them, and have tried and It doesn't work they way you'd like it to. I spoke with Avid about this as well as Apple at NAMM yesterday.. basically Avids viewpoint is "we make the eucon protocol and it is up to the DAW dev teams to choose how its implement when we send over the SDK." Apple's dev wasn't 100% the guy to talk to as he wasn't working heavily in the midi environments side of things but he said being that in the Environment the fact I converted the fader data to CC data with transformer logic should be able to write that in as midi. Currently the only work around I have been able to make work is write the fader data on a separate track in 'latch' mode and then playback the recoded midi with the track automation playing through while recording and it will write in the fader movement as CC data on the midi region. Now that is unusable. The Logic dev suggested there is a bug possibly with logic not being able to communicate what is happening in Environment with what is being processed in the event list. Which is absolutely the fact because the event list while tracking CC data isn't able to properly 'record' it. You can see here what the event list is doing. Now I haven't tried any of this in 10.3 yet so i am hoping maybe this was addressed. Either way I would love to get this to work as the Artist mix already has its home on my desk and the faders are beautiful.


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