# Help With Mic Mixing Orchestral Tools



## JohnBMears (Jan 11, 2019)

So I have never established a good workflow for this and I am looking for guidance. 

So, you just finished a mockup using Berlin Brass. All 11 instruments used (3 tpt, 3 bone, 4 horns & 1 tuba). Used tree only during programming to both save RAM and have a single perspective. 

Then you finish the woodwinds parts using BWW Revive, all single instruments, all tree mics. 

You don't have Berlin Strings, so you use CSS and HWS Diamond.

CSS's mix mic gets most of the job done to my ear and while HWS doesn't offer a mix option, it is so dry that using the mains and close pretty fit the bill for me.

Then there's Orchestral Tools, Berlin WWs and Brass.

So here is where I go wrong and start completely screwing up my balance, turning on more mics and fiddling with the faders. 

What do you all do at this exact point? Who uses the Auto-Gain switch in Capsule? Does anyone print out each microphone to its own track and automate as if it were recorded live? I find the F Horns to be the most in need. They are lost and blurry in that room to my ears. They sound lovely but lack so much clarity. 

In the perfect world of unlimited RAM would you recommend turning on all the mics? There would just seem to be an endless task of tweaking each mic fader by 1 or 2 dB.

In short, I'm looking for the best way to get a mic mix for Berlin Brass that more closely resembles what I hear in the mic mix of CineBrass or or CSB. 

NOTE: I realize that compared to those other 2 libraries, Berlin Brass will always sound more roomy due to where/how it was recorded, but where have you found good starting point for levels on a building a mic mix?


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Jan 13, 2019)

Hi @JohnBMears

I use mostly OT libraries and here is a method I've been using since last year and that I think works great.

I don't like using the Auto-Gain in CAPSULE, and mixing different microphones inside Kontakt always seemed like an incredibly tedious task to me ! Way more comfortable to have actual faders in your DAW.

So in my template, every instrument track containing a multi-miced orchestral instrument gets 3 outputs : Close, Tree, Room. For instance, for Berlin Brass I'll route Close 1, Close 2 and ORTF to a main "_Close_" output, Tree to "_Tree_", AB & Surround to "_Room_". I don't mess with individual volumes, like Close 2 related to ORTF or anything like that. That's my rule for not getting crazy  If I don't like the sound of a microphone position, I just deactivate it.

I'll do that for every instrument, and build 3 "sub-mixes" : All the "Close" from all my libraries, all the "Tree" and so on. I find it easier this way to get a proper balance of everyone.

If you're looking for something specific to Berlin Brass, I would say the ORTF mics are usually a great starting point as a balance between close and ambiance. They definitely can "replace" the Tree mics if you find them too wet, and could be your main ones.


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## JohnBMears (Jan 13, 2019)

whitewasteland said:


> Hi @JohnBMears
> 
> I use mostly OT libraries and here is a method I've been using since last year and that I think works great.
> 
> ...



Thank you SO much for sharing- this would surely be an amazing method. Do you use single articulation OT patches per track or do you use the multi that has the slots to customize? I'm guessing you're in Cubase (deactivate track)? I don't think Logic has that as a RAM saving feature so now I guess I need to come up with a way to save RAM if I am loading multiple mics from the get-go. 

I truly appreciate you taking the time to reply. Your mockups are incredible and I am lucky to glean some knowledge from you!

JOHN


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Jan 14, 2019)

Thank you @JohnBMears !

You're right, I'm using Cubase. I don't know Logic at all, but if it doesn't have a similar function, surely you have some way to Freeze the track ? Even with the Disable track feature of Cubase, I always freeze everything once I'm done with the programming, as I'm working on a laptop with "only" 24GB RAM. So use only one mic, do your programming, load the other mics and freeze, maybe ? That's another benefit of this "multi out" approach, you can bounce everything and focus on the balance later.

I'm using single articulation patches only when they don't have a Multi counterpart, so that would mean all the Legato patches with different types of attacks, vibrato etc, the Playable Runs patch, etc. For everything else, Multis  And I always keep an empty Multi for each instrument, that I would use for all custom articulations needed for the piece.


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## OleJoergensen (Jan 14, 2019)

You do these mockups with Orchestral tools and only 24 GB ram, vow! That means you bounce a lot of tracks and ends up with many audio files to mix...?


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Jan 14, 2019)

@OleJoergensen : Just use the Freeze function in Cubase, actually 
But yeah, it's a bit of a juggling act.


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## grnprplorngyllw (Oct 28, 2020)

whitewasteland said:


> Hi @JohnBMears
> 
> I use mostly OT libraries and here is a method I've been using since last year and that I think works great.
> 
> ...



Hi!
How do you route Berlin Woodwinds' different mics to different Kontakt outputs? Is it possible I need the Revive expansion?
Thanks!


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## Germain B (Oct 29, 2020)

I've been juggling too with those mics recently, and I'm still not totally satisfy.
I want to have the placement's depth but I don't want instruments to get drown so....

I'm now in this configuration :
-Strings : Mostly Close mic + a bit of Tree (around -25 or -20dB)
-Woodwinds : Half Close, Half ORTF and a bit of Tree
-Brass : ORTF and between -15 and -20dB Tree (Sometimes I add a bit of Close when I want extra bite). I try to get horns and tuba closer to the woodwinds' configuration than the brass one.
-Percussions : depends... Mostly Tree but I might bring up the Close/Spot (for cleaner transients when needed) and the AB/Surround mic (Piatti, Bells...)

But it's constantly evolving... I will keep an eye on this thread.
I work with 32GB of ram and I haven't face problem yet.


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## grnprplorngyllw (Nov 8, 2020)

grnprplorngyllw said:


> Hi!
> How do you route Berlin Woodwinds' different mics to different Kontakt outputs? Is it possible I need the Revive expansion?
> Thanks!



Allright, i figured it out. You do need the Revive version.


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## tim727 (Dec 28, 2022)

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> Hi @JohnBMears
> 
> I use mostly OT libraries and here is a method I've been using since last year and that I think works great.
> 
> ...


@Emmanuel Rousseau I'm very intrigued by your approach as I was thinking to do something very similar. I have a question for you though. Do you maintain the "CTR" separation all the way up from the individual instruments through the sections? Let me illustrate what I'm asking with an example:

Let's say in a given track you have loaded BS Violins, Ark 4 Violins, BS Cellos, and Ark 4 Cellos. Does your routing then look like so?

BS Violins Close --> Violins Close --> Strings Close
BS Violins Tree --> Violins Tree --> Strings Tree
BS Violins Room --> Violins Room --> Strings Room
Ark 4 Violins Close --> Violins Close --> Strings Close
Ark 4 Violins Tree --> Violins Tree --> Strings Tree
Ark 4 Violins Room --> Violins Room --> Strings Room
BS Cellos Close --> Cellos Close --> Strings Close
BS Cellos Tree --> Cellos Tree --> Strings Tree
BS Cellos Room --> Cellos Room --> Strings Room
Ark 4 Cellos Close --> Cellos Close --> Strings Close
Ark 4 Cellos Tree --> Cellos Tree --> Strings Tree
Ark 4 Cellos Room --> Cellos Room --> Strings Room

This is the type of template that I've been considering setting up. My sense is that the main advantage here is that you can control the levels for any given mic position for a whole specific instrument type (i.e. raise the "room" level for all violins, lower the "close" level for all cellos, etc) ... but you can also do likewise for the entire section (i.e. raise the "close" level for the strings as a whole relative to the brass, raise the "room" level for the percussion as a whole relative to everything else, etc). This also would allow you to apply any processing (EQ, reverb etc) on a mic by mic basis, which seems like it could also be potentially advantageous. That said there is maybe also a drawback to that, which is that you have a lot of duplication of EQ or reverb inserts or sends, depending on the details of the template since there are now three times as many "paths" for the audio to take as what there would be without a "separate mic outputs" approach. For instance let's say I wanted to apply EQ to flute 1 as a whole. I can't really do that in a specific location using this approach. Instead I would need to stick an EQ on Flute 1 Close, Flute 1 Tree, and Flute 1 Room. 

I'm very curious to hear more details of your approach!


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Dec 28, 2022)

tim727 said:


> @Emmanuel Rousseau I'm very intrigued by your approach as I was thinking to do something very similar. I have a question for you though. Do you maintain the "CTR" separation all the way up from the individual instruments through the sections? Let me illustrate what I'm asking with an example:
> 
> Let's say in a given track you have loaded BS Violins, Ark 4 Violins, BS Cellos, and Ark 4 Cellos. Does your routing then look like so?
> 
> ...


Hey! The setup you're describing looks a lot like what I've been using for a while, but like you perfectly said in your post this level of separation and detail also comes with big flaws. 

I finally found it too difficult to work with in real life scenarios where I have to submit full pieces of music in very short amounts of time. This method also brought some complications for stemming. 

These days my workflow is totally different and I'm using Cubase Quick Controls to balance microphones for each instrument with the help of a tablet using TouchOSC. So it's like, select a track in Cubase, tablet shows current mic balance, raise close mics a bit, lower room mics a bit, select another track and repeat 

So, one output per instrument, but with some touch control to keep things fast and spontaneous. 

I hope this helps!


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## tim727 (Dec 28, 2022)

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> Hey! The setup you're describing looks a lot like what I've been using for a while, but like you perfectly said in your post this level of separation and detail also comes with big flaws.
> 
> I finally found it too difficult to work with in real life scenarios where I have to submit full pieces of music in very short amounts of time. This method also brought some complications for stemming.


Ah interesting ok. I'm curious, since you said your timelines made it difficult to work with this type of template, what specific aspect(s) of the template ended up making the production process more time consuming?


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Dec 28, 2022)

tim727 said:


> Ah interesting ok. I'm curious, since you said your timelines made it difficult to work with this type of template, what specific aspect(s) of the template ended up making the production process more time consuming?


Specifically, I would say 1) the EQ / inserts / sends duplicates and 2) on a more psychological level the "too much groups, too much faders, too much choices" aspect


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## tim727 (Dec 28, 2022)

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> Specifically, I would say 1) the EQ / inserts / sends duplicates and 2) on a more psychological level the "too much groups, too much faders, too much choices" aspect


Both points make sense. Thank you for providing your perspective!


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## Beat Kaufmann (Dec 28, 2022)

JohnBMears said:


> ...
> 
> So here is where I go wrong and start completely screwing up my balance, turning on more mics and fiddling with the faders.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, I don't have your library. But it probably works about the same for everyone with different room microphones. With the different microphones you have the possibility to play an instrument either far away or at the front of the stage. 
Presumably there are so-called basic presets for all instruments, which the manufacturer has tuned in such a way that a kind of depth gradation of the instruments is created. So in the back percussion brass, then in the middle of the stage probably the wood instruments and in front the strings. So that we understand each other correctly: This is about the acoustic impression where instruments play - front center - back. It is therefore important that actually those microphones could be added that are (would be) necessary for getting those positions. If you have too little memory, you will probably have to process section by section and then bounce each one.
Here's a tip, if you're not already using it: Combine whole sections into one bus channel. If the section is mixed in itself in the correct volume ratio, you can then adjust the whole section with only one control with others that are also combined in this way.

If you want to combine a library with another, then you can use the different microphones to match them spatially - and yes: working with samples is always time-consuming if you want to do it well. With different products, there's also the mentioned adjustment work.

Beat


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## FrozenIcicle (Jan 3, 2023)

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> Hey! The setup you're describing looks a lot like what I've been using for a while, but like you perfectly said in your post this level of separation and detail also comes with big flaws.
> 
> I finally found it too difficult to work with in real life scenarios where I have to submit full pieces of music in very short amounts of time. This method also brought some complications for stemming.
> 
> ...


Yep the multiple mics per instrument setup works really well with band mixing, but with orchestra samples having 100 instrument tracks in one template (spic, legato, sus, etc) you’re then tripling to 300 tracks. Your new method is essentially just mixing in Sine is it not? I wish we could just have the luxury of mixing real recordings 😫


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Sunday at 9:19 AM)

The Berlin Studio reverb plugin might be helpful, as it offers several acoustical perspectives of the Teldex Studio, which you can use for instance in aux/send channels for orchestral groups.


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