# IPad as a MIDI controller---a viable option?



## gsilbers (Aug 26, 2010)

with AC-7 and air display available for ipad i was wondering if its a good option. in the video with eric p the air display seemed a bit slow to react. i used a midi controller in my iphone and seemed pretty fast but very small of course. 

if apple drops 100 bucks of the ipad next week with its new tv thing they are coming out with then id like to get that ipad but only if i can find an excuse like a good controller? :lol: :wink: wink wink.... (id be using to consume a lot of entertainment as well but cant just buy something that pricey for THAT i need some sort of excuse right


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## booboo (Aug 26, 2010)

I'm using AC-7 and Touch OSC on an Ipad with Logic/Mac Pro here.

It's one of the best moves I've made in the studio. I've sold my Logic Control and Remote Zero SL.

I also use Air Display on the ipad to control some plug ins with tons of 'knobs' with the touch screen.

Fantastic, streamlined, and also cheaper in the long run.


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## synthetic (Aug 26, 2010)

Air Display is the best solution I've found yet. But the faders are a bit small on the iPad to use for mixing. I'm hoping that Apple will create an iPad app to control Logic. Seems like a no-brainer...?


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## gsilbers (Aug 26, 2010)

nice! i didnt know so many (well, fast respoonse anyway) where using the ipad as a controller. 

i couldnt hook up the ac7 in my iphone, its was kinda a pita to setup. but i did try touch OSC and seemed very nice. id like to use pads to do program changes but also faders for expression /midi control.. how fast is it to change form one setup to the next or have found a way to have both /custom controllers?


and yes, logic app for the ipad should of come out months ago! !


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## whinecellar (Aug 27, 2010)

Oh my word, yes - TouchOSC is insane! Can't recommend it highly enough as the ultimate "roll your own" custom controller. To me it justifies the purchase of the iPad all on its own. 

I'm currently building a multi-page control surface that will control Logic (key commands as well as MIDI faders, etc.) as well as Kontakt scripts for LASS and other instruments. With the OSCulator app, you can also do lots of other things like run Applescripts, key macros, Automator tasks and so on. 

HIGHLY recommended!


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## gsilbers (Aug 27, 2010)

Man, you guys are making me gearjelouse!!!

Hope apple drops the price of the ipad on sept 1


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## synthetic (Aug 27, 2010)

I spent an entire day trying to program TouchOSC. It was easy to get the faders to control Logic, but getting Logic to update the display of the iPad seemed really tough. Also the faders seemed to be hardwired to tracks instead of fader banks, at least in the walkthrough I tried on the Osculator site. 

I was hoping to build a multi-page controller for Logic faders and LASS controllers. So I'd be interested to see your finished setup, Jim.


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## gsilbers (Aug 27, 2010)

synthetic @ Fri Aug 27 said:


> I spent an entire day trying to program TouchOSC. It was easy to get the faders to control Logic, but getting Logic to update the display of the iPad seemed really tough. Also the faders seemed to be hardwired to tracks instead of fader banks, at least in the walkthrough I tried on the Osculator site.
> 
> I was hoping to build a multi-page controller for Logic faders and LASS controllers. So I'd be interested to see your finished setup, Jim.




+1


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## whinecellar (Aug 27, 2010)

synthetic @ Fri Aug 27 said:


> It was easy to get the faders to control Logic, but getting Logic to update the display of the iPad seemed really tough. Also the faders seemed to be hardwired to tracks instead of fader banks



Yeah, I don't think TouchOSC was meant for 2-way communication, but I haven't really looked into that since AC-7 Pro has that covered. If you're looking for more of a Mackie/Logic Control-style app with visual feedback, AC-7 is a no-brainer.

TouchOSC excels, however, in being able to create any type of controller you can imagine for *sending* or manipulating data. And yes indeed, it's incredibly easy to create multi-page layouts, and each page can contain multiple types of controllers (rotary, faders, buttons, etc.) - see http://hexler.net/ for some screenshots.

And yes, by default Logic routes any incoming MIDI to the selected track. However, the easy workaround for this is some basic Environment cabling: In the "click & ports" layer, simply delete the cable coming from the "Sum" port on the Physical Input object, then draw a cable from your main MIDI controller's port to wherever it needs to go (Input Notes keyboard in a default song; otherwise, Sequencer Input).

Once you've done that, any incoming MIDI from other ports (including TouchOSC/OSCulator) can be used as global controller data without affecting the current track, and you can do some pretty slick stuff in the controller assignments setup. Of course, you could also build the same functionality as a Mackie Control doing this, but it would take some work in the "expert settings" area. It can get pretty nerdy, but it's not rocket science though 



synthetic @ Fri Aug 27 said:


> I was hoping to build a multi-page controller for Logic faders and LASS controllers. So I'd be interested to see your finished setup, Jim.



Well my brother, I'll happily keep you posted when it's done - I hope to make it happen in the next few weeks 

All the best,


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## gsilbers (Aug 27, 2010)

this is cool
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhH3AJ9kIXg


do u know if i can have 8 bottons and 8 faders in one screen? 
is it customizable like that?


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## whinecellar (Aug 27, 2010)

gsilbers @ Fri Aug 27 said:


> do u know if i can have 8 bottons and 8 faders in one screen?
> is it customizable like that?



Absolutely - you can do anything you want. Again, see:

http://hexler.net/software/touchosc

And/or do a google search for TouchOSC - pretty cool stuff!


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## gsilbers (Aug 27, 2010)

cool. i thought it was "set presets" on the knob/fader displays and then u assiged what parameters it would control. 
cool, that mean i can program it to have 8 faders and 8 pads to be able to control instruments banks and midi cc!! in one surface controller.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 27, 2010)

Yo Jeff, how was the latency over the network? Are you close to your router?

(Curious 'cause a friend of mine - a knowledgeable guy - still had an inconclusive answer to my question about the latency.)


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## gsilbers (Aug 27, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Aug 27 said:


> Yo Jeff, how was the latency over the network? Are you close to your router?
> 
> (Curious 'cause a friend of mine - a knowledgeable guy - still had an inconclusive answer to my question about the latency.)




well, i have the itm midilab in my iphone and the latency is very very low. almost instant. 

dunno about touchOSC


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## whinecellar (Aug 27, 2010)

gsilbers @ Fri Aug 27 said:


> cool. i thought it was "set presets" on the knob/fader displays and then u assiged what parameters it would control.
> cool, that mean i can program it to have 8 faders and 8 pads to be able to control instruments banks and midi cc!! in one surface controller.



Nope - it's not predefined. You can download some free templates to get you started (and some of them do include a basic 8-fader/button layout), but the way to go is to build your own using the free TouchOSC editor. On an iPad, you can certainly get WAY more than 8 faders & buttons on one screen 

Nick, I don't have an exact number for you re: latency, but both TouchOSC and AC-7 Pro feel instantaneous to me - no perceptible latency. I followed their recommendation to set up an ad-hoc WiFi network on my computer and connect the iPhone/iPad to that, and my main machines are in the next room from my control room.

FYI, I was concerned about adding this into my existing network which includes VE Pro running across 3 machines via ethernet - no problems whatsoever.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 27, 2010)

Thanks Jim and gsilbers.


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## synthetic (Aug 27, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Aug 27 said:


> Yo Jeff, how was the latency over the network? Are you close to your router?
> 
> (Curious 'cause a friend of mine - a knowledgeable guy - still had an inconclusive answer to my question about the latency.)



You mean with Air Display? Not instant but not bad either. Similar to VNC, not as fast as Windows Remote Desktop.


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## gsilbers (Aug 27, 2010)

hmmm... now i am htinking i could replace my mc mix... 
does ACu7 use the hui protocol?

does the touchOSC work with hui also? 
(so i can control pro tools as well)


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## whinecellar (Aug 27, 2010)

AC-7 uses the Mackie Control protocol from what I can tell on their website:

http://www.saitarasoftware.com/Site/AC-7_Pro.html

It also supports most other DAWs, so you're in luck. Touch OSC has nothing to do with HUI - it just sends out whatever commands you tell it to. Technically it uses the Open Sound Control format, and you use an app like OSCulator to map its controls to any MIDI controller/event, which can then be sent to any app you choose.


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## rJames (Aug 27, 2010)

I haven't been able to get AC-7 pro to work fully functioning with Logic.

It does the basics, but the 2way communication is not great. 

Colin Morrison said that he would be happy to help me but I haven't been as energized to seek solutions as I was when I bought it.

Latency not too bad.


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## gsilbers (Aug 27, 2010)

whinecellar @ Fri Aug 27 said:


> AC-7 uses the Mackie Control protocol from what I can tell on their website:
> 
> http://www.saitarasoftware.com/Site/AC-7_Pro.html
> 
> It also supports most other DAWs, so you're in luck. Touch OSC has nothing to do with HUI - it just sends out whatever commands you tell it to. Technically it uses the Open Sound Control format, and you use an app like OSCulator to map its controls to any MIDI controller/event, which can then be sent to any app you choose.



thx. i guess ill keep the mcmix and still use the ipad as a bank/miidi cc controller


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## gsilbers (Aug 27, 2010)

rJames @ Fri Aug 27 said:


> I haven't been able to get AC-7 pro to work fully functioning with Logic.
> 
> It does the basics, but the 2way communication is not great.
> 
> ...



ditto, 

not a good experience with AC7 at all.


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## whinecellar (Aug 27, 2010)

rJames @ Fri Aug 27 said:


> I haven't been able to get AC-7 pro to work fully functioning with Logic.
> 
> It does the basics, but the 2way communication is not great.



Can you give some specific examples? Do you feel like it's an implementation thing or could it be a network/wifi issue? Just curious...

Thanks!


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## whinecellar (Aug 27, 2010)

Man, that's a bummer - hope it gets worked out!


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## JT3_Jon (Oct 3, 2010)

any updates from you ipad users? Hows it been going? I'm following this thread with great interest!


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## [email protected] (Nov 8, 2010)

whinecellar @ Sun Oct 03 said:


> Man, it's going GREAT here, with both the iPhone and the iPad. I'm almost done with my custom TouchOSC controllers for each. One is geared for using Logic in a live show context, and the other is geared for composers using all the popular sample libraries. I'm REALLY excited about that one - no more having to remember what keyswitch does what in each library, and that's just a start
> 
> More to come!



Looking forward to your layout. Just sold my MC Control to replace it with an iPad. I still use the MC MIX Controller cause of the real faders - but i would love to come up with a custom template to control keyswitches for VSL and Symphobia. It would be great if you let us know how you did yours...

Thanks,

Matt


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## whinecellar (Nov 8, 2010)

[email protected] @ Mon Nov 08 said:


> Looking forward to your layout. Just sold my MC Control to replace it with an iPad. I still use the MC MIX Controller cause of the real faders - but i would love to come up with a custom template to control keyswitches for VSL and Symphobia. It would be great if you let us know how you did yours...



Hey Matt,

I'm slowly making progress in between other obligations. Here's a screenshot of my LA Scoring Strings articulation switcher. I'm experimenting with ways to condense it a bit, but this is about as small as I want to make the buttons. Trying to find the balance between visual clutter & productivity - I don't want to end up with too many pages of controllers 

Jim


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## a.leung (Nov 8, 2010)

Thats awesome Jim! Im working on a couple of interfaces myself (ones a SD2 interface) fun stuff lies ahead!


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## whinecellar (Nov 8, 2010)

Thanks Allan! Yeah man, the iPad is one of the most helpful purchases I've made in a long time. Once I get it dialed in, it will be crucial to speeding up my work - yours too I would guess! Keep me posted on your progress and I'll do the same


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## [email protected] (Nov 10, 2010)

@ whinecellar
This Layout looks really useful! Are you already working with this template on projects? How's that working out for you? Keep us updated!

@ booboo
how's the expression controller with a touch interface? At the moment i am using a real fader on my masterkeyboard...


How do you place your iPad in your studio? Are you using a Desk Stand?

Thanks!


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## whinecellar (Nov 10, 2010)

[email protected] @ Wed Nov 10 said:


> @ whinecellar
> This Layout looks really useful! Are you already working with this template on projects? How's that working out for you? Keep us updated!



Thanks. It is definitely useful, but I would love to find a way to condense it a bit and get some of the LASS controllers on the same page. We'll see...

As for where to put the iPad, I'm wrestling with that a bit since I already have a bunch of stuff in front of me. It comes down to priorities, but I've gotten to where I use everything I have - there's not enough room! That said, I can foresee the iPad becoming just as important as my Mac keyboard - the two will probably end up side-by-side.

I'll definitely keep you posted on further controller developments; working on some for LASS, Symphobia, VSL, EastWest, Access Virus, Logic & others...


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## gsilbers (Nov 10, 2010)

does OSC do HUI audio mixing automation -like stuff

i wanna see if my mc mix can be replace. (even though physical faders are cooler)

ideally i would want to be able to use the ipad as a controller and then switch to audio mixing in one touch. 
i know i can use the ac7 but thats opening another app go back and forth etc.


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## whinecellar (Nov 10, 2010)

gsilbers @ Wed Nov 10 said:


> does OSC do HUI audio mixing automation -like stuff
> 
> i wanna see if my mc mix can be replaced



Yes, and then some! Check out the new implementation that comes with Touch OSC/Logic 9.1.3. You could simply add any custom layers to that... this would run circles around the Euphonix stuff, IMO.


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## IFM (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm selling my Mackie control...that's all there is to it!


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## synthetic (Nov 16, 2010)

I did a mix in Touch OSC/Logic and the faders were fighting me the whole time. I was trying to hold the level at 0 and it would inch down, I had to overhsoot way above 0 to get it to stay where I wanted. SO far I've only done the one mix but I wasn't impressed.


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## [email protected] (Nov 17, 2010)

@whinecellar
Just bought my iPad yesterday - the LogicPad Layout is pretty impressive, but that's not what i am looking for. I try to build my own Layout, but could not find a manual for using Logic with Touch OSC, but without OSCulator. How do you get along?




synthetic @ Tue Nov 16 said:


> I did a mix in Touch OSC/Logic and the faders were fighting me the whole time. I was trying to hold the level at 0 and it would inch down, I had to overhsoot way above 0 to get it to stay where I wanted. SO far I've only done the one mix but I wasn't impressed.



I think the biggest benefit of OSC is not mixing - I like to have some real faders in my hand for doing a mix. But when i comes to keyswitches or effects – OSC is the way to go.


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## charlieclouser (Nov 27, 2010)

I thought the iPad could be the answer to many problems - but it turned out that it showed me why I don't like "glass mixers" - one must be looking directly at the thing to use it. If your finger should slip a little to the left or right then you're now adjusting the wrong fader in TouchOSC. Ooops. AC7 has the same problem but implemented differently, but still you have to look quite closely at the thing to use it. With hardware faderboxes you have touch feedback as to what you're adjusting and by how much. On hardware faderpacks I learned to figure out what channel I'm touching by sliding my fingers around and counting fader slots and breaks between 8-channel buckets while keeping my eyes elsewhere - the braille method.

Tried some of the screen sharing apps but they all wanted some janky driver or worse, like iTeleport which required a gmail account! Wtf indeed. Wishing there was a simple Remote Desktop client from Apple...

iPad now back to being used to browse teh interwebs and watch car crash videos on YouTube....


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## [email protected] (Dec 20, 2010)

any news on this topic - i really have a hard time with the TouchOSC Editor. Feels like back in the 80's


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## chimuelo (Dec 20, 2010)

I look forward to Whinecellars LASS implementation. 
I can see Charlie's point on the glass mixer, as I perform live and go from blazing bright specials to dark, so I feel my way around my KS88 Pro and Doepfer Fader Bank.
But I really think touching a surface for Bank/Instrument changes via MIDI Program changes will help immensely.
I am set up so I have only 22 presets attached to hardware buttons. I don't need more than that and the buttons are attached to a Global MIDI Channel, which allows me to change the Global Channel from 1-16 which means each instrument shares the buttons.
LASS is such a fine Live performer since it became an NCW instrument that I want it to have its own unique surface.
Whinecellars layout makes so much sense, and the fact I can run OSC with MIDI in parallel is the juice for me.
Besides, I have used MIDI since it's inception, and even though MIDI 2 specs have made the Infinite Response VAX77 an incredible controller ( 1-16000 instead of 1-127 ), I look to OSC to bring even more to the table.


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## [email protected] (Dec 22, 2010)

Alright Guys!

After spending some time with TouchOSC Editor and Osculator, i am happy to show off my Screenshots .

*Screen 1:* Shortcuts for various commands - a modified german version from this layout: http://tinyurl.com/22trs5a. I have to figure out which commands i really use - it's too cluttered... 

*Screen 2 & 3:* Keyswitches for VSL and Symphobia

*Screen 4:* Perform Layout with BIG buttons and Faders

*Screen 5:* various Channel Strips (Performances). a dream come true... 

Comments and Questions are welcome. Thanks for all the inspiration from the other guys...

Merry Christmas
Matt

http://i56.tinypic.com/nzosyh.png
http://i52.tinypic.com/2hqggn4.png
http://i53.tinypic.com/vymjd5.png
http://i55.tinypic.com/2cr5xdf.png
http://i51.tinypic.com/2lwrxj7.png


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## [email protected] (Dec 22, 2010)

dexterflex @ Wed Dec 22 said:


> Are you loading all symphobia patches on 1 midi channel and using the ipad to select the patches?



i load all the keyswitch patches from symphobia - there is a subfolder in every group. About 1.2 GB.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 22, 2010)

Matt, that's dope! =o


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## [email protected] (Dec 22, 2010)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Wed Dec 22 said:


> Matt, that's dope! =o



Thanks Ned - appreciate it!


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