# Not renewing Pro Tools "subscription"



## JohnG (Jun 24, 2019)

$399 a YEAR!!?? Crazy. 

Did download the latest update and installed yesterday though.


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## sourcefor (Jun 24, 2019)

Yeah they lost me along time ago!!!


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## chillbot (Jun 24, 2019)

I like that I could buy a month for the month that I needed it and then not renew. But yeah, is there no longer a way to buy it outright?


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## Jeremy Gillam (Jun 24, 2019)

I bought a Pro Tools Ultimate perpetual license earlier this year but I realized it was a mistake and ended up selling it. The reason being that after the first year they charge $399/year for the upgrade and support plan, which seems pretty steep especially after they delayed a compatibility update by five months earlier this year. But where they REALLY F*&^ you over is if you let your upgrade and support plan lapse, because if that happens and you don't have an active one they charge (I believe) $999 to reinstate it. So if you just want to bump up a version every three years they are going to bleed you for a thousand bucks.

It is possible that I have my facts wrong and they may have changed the reinstatement policy in the recently announced pricing updates, but it really seemed like the final straw for me so I've opted to try to do everything in Cubase on PC. (Apple's absurdly overpriced new Mac Pro is a separate piece of the Pro Tools puzzle, but the Apple story is similar to the Avid one in my opinion).


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## JohnG (Jun 24, 2019)

Jeremy Gillam said:


> It is possible that I have my facts wrong



You don't. You are entirely correct.



chillbot said:


> is there no longer a way to buy it outright?



See @Jeremy Gillam post above. I bought a "perpetual" license, but that requires that I perpetually pay $399 a year to get updates. So it's really a one-year license but the software doesn't expire as such.

Put another way, you can keep using what you bought indefinitely, as long as your plugins etc. remain compatible with the OS that you're using for PT.


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## chillbot (Jun 24, 2019)

What if you bought the full version before the subscription model came out. Are you just stuck at your current version?


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## JohnG (Jun 24, 2019)

chillbot said:


> What if you bought the full version before the subscription model came out. Are you just stuck at your current version?



They've been through so many gyrations I don't know if there's a single "yes" or "no" to your question. For ten years I stayed on Lion (or something) and PT v9.03 (or something like that). Finally couldn't stand it and updated when I heard the latency compensation had more than doubled.

Guess it's another 10 years then!


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## chillbot (Jun 24, 2019)

It used to be the software was free because it wouldn't run without the PT hardware, remember that? I don't know if I miss that or not, seems almost better in some ways. I'm just glad I don't need it except for a month or two for certain projects.


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## Morning Coffee (Jun 24, 2019)

I suffer from AVID anxiety. 

I previously had a Pro Tools 12 perpetual license in 2016. When it came time to renew in 2017, I unfortunately misunderstood their plans/upgrades/smoke and mirror packages and picked up a one year subscription (thinking that the word 'subscription' meant that when the subscription period ended, that I would get to keep everything up until that point, just like a magazine subscription for example). I also thought a perpetual license was a license that would never expire, boy was I wrong!

To cut a long story short, in the process of buying a subscription back then, I ended up losing the Pro Tools 12 "Perpetual" license. Avid would not give it back and said that at the end of the subscription period I would either have to subscribe again, buy another perpetual license or go back to Pro Tools 11, (which I also have a Perpetual license for).

I spent almost 6 months arguing with them about it, but they would not budge. In the end they decided that they would, in their words, make me a "generous" offer, and would reinstate my Pro Tools 12 license for $99 so that I wouldn't have to pay full price for a perpetual license (which I previously owned!). After all the stress I had dealing with them, I just paid to have my license reinstated and cut my ties with the company.

I still have not installed PT12 on my iLok or computer since then, so not sure what to expect when I do try it in future, considering that PT12 is a generation ago.


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## ironbut (Jun 24, 2019)

Yeah.
I've got a std. perpetual I've been paying $99 a year for.
That price doubles next month so I'm planning to pay before the price increase and see if I think it's worth it next year.
I don't do as much editing as I used to do and that's the only reason I have keep PT.
I checked out a couple of the threads on Slutz and Duc and people _saying_ they've had it with Avid.


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## 5Lives (Jun 24, 2019)

Given what they added over the past 12 months, I don't feel I have gotten $99 out of my subscription. That alone was leading me to not upgrade again...then the price increase happened on top of that. Granted, I rarely open PT these days - so many other great options for us hobbyists.


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## artomatic (Jun 24, 2019)

"AVID" is now for some users "AVOID".
So sad. It's like extortion in the worst way. 
Seems they want to continue pleasing their stockholders and not care about their loyal customers.
I've had Pro Tools since it was a 4-track digital production system (ProEDIT with ProDECK) in the early 90s. 
Invested heavily with Digidesign software/hardware a few years back and recently with Avid's HDX system. 
I feel trapped since I'm so used to its workflow. 
BUT to continue shelling $400 a year for the measly updates is insulting. 
And when I stop paying for their subscription, reinstatement is a whopping $1k (if they'll still allow it)!
Their subscription model, including their current price increases will undoubtedly result in countless hobbiests to jump ship.
Sadly, I'm looking for another DAW - which means investing a good amount of time learning it.
But at least the price/updates will not be as sinful as Avid's.
Enough is enough!
I will no longer allow this greedy company to extort me.


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## storyteller (Jun 24, 2019)

Their "trade in your perpetual license for a cheaper subscription" model is slimy. It really is the worst concept with zero intentions of benefiting the end user. They are literally trying to take back what they sold you and force you to enter into a subscription model. I stopped renewing ProTools at v12.7.


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## givemenoughrope (Jun 24, 2019)

I bought PT11 pre-subscription. So I dunno.

Maybe some egghead/hero will make a Reaper template of PT and some software that makes the session into an actual PT session/file.


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## dzilizzi (Jun 24, 2019)

I picked up 3 years at Sweetwater for $99/year (the max they sell) I've had a perpetual since 2006 and still find it easier to use than Cubase. But the main reason for me to keep it right now is they use it at the community college I go to so I can work on stuff at home when I travel for work. 

If you have the Sweetwater card, it's got 24 months no interest financing. I'm hoping they either realize they are making a mistake before my 3 years runs out, or I may just freeze my system. Okay, I'm on Windows. I can still use 11 and 10. I won't actually have to freeze anything.


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## jamwerks (Jun 24, 2019)

$400/year is of course peanuts for a scoring stage, but too much for an orchestrator that just opens it twice a week for the midi files. Too bad they can't successfully do different versions responding to different needs!

Are any productions accepting Nuendo files for deliveries?


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## Michael Antrum (Jun 24, 2019)

Avid seem intent on doing a ‘Quark Xpress’.

What with pressure in the video side from Black Magic Design’s Resolve and their alienation of younger/poorer students and musicians using other DAW’s they seem to be sabotaging their own business.

They’ve forgotten who their customers are, in the chase for short term cash. The way I read their announcement, it seems clear to me that they want to transition their business to 100% rental, and they are going to remove permanent licences from their customers over the next few years. Probably slowly at first, and then they will stop selling them leaving people stuck on old versions.


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## Fredeke (Jun 25, 2019)

Yeah they've lost me too, a while ago.
It is the most reliable DAW (or used to be, when I was using it - I don't know about now), but not even that justifies their business practices, to me anyway. I feel I would essentially be working for them.


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## TomislavEP (Jun 25, 2019)

A couple of years back, I've missed an opportunity to upgrade from PT11 to PT12 for 99$ + VAT and I've passed thinking that PT12 won't bring too many "earth-shattering" new features. Although I was kind of wrong, the price of the Reinstatement Plan had drove me away toward REAPER and I couldn't be happier. Not only I'm way more productive now due to the unique flexibility and power of this DAW, but Cockos' ethos especially when it comes to the retail price and the updates / upgrades policy is much more fair toward the end-users. The price of PT was always relatively high, but at least the updates within the major version were free and you were even eligible to a free upgrade to the next version in some cases (I'm not sure if this still stands today). Of course, this is all relative even with the new AVID politics when talking about the big businesses, but many of us don't fit into this particular category.

Personally, I've kept PT11 on my system only for backward compatibility with my older projects. Although the versions older than PT12 are not officially Windows 10 compliant, I've haven't experienced any serious issues myself, though I must admit that I very seldom use PT these days.


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## Fredeke (Jun 25, 2019)

chillbot said:


> It used to be the software was free because it wouldn't run without the PT hardware, remember that? I don't know if I miss that or not, seems almost better in some ways. I'm just glad I don't need it except for a month or two for certain projects.


We may come back to that. If you'll indulge my speculations...
Since no brand of computer/OS is reliable anymore (Jobs' Macs used to be very reliable, but that era is over), we might need to rely on proprietary hardware for relative stability under an unstable system again, like we did 15 to 20 years ago: PT5 under MacOS 9, the original Sadie under Windows 95, the Virtua desk under Windows 3.11 (!), or Radar with own proprietary hardware and OS - remember those? Freaking expensive, right?
Of course that's only if manufacturers and publishers see this model as viable in today's market... And hopefully without segregating their ecosystems too much.
Otherwise we'll just be stuck with unreliable computers for now. We've been there in the past. It's no fun, but hey.


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## Daryl (Jun 25, 2019)

jamwerks said:


> $400/year is of course peanuts for a scoring stage, but too much for an orchestrator that just opens it twice a week for the midi files.


Too much? It's about 8 pages of orchestrations. Maybe one cue a year. Hardly that expensive.


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## Daryl (Jun 25, 2019)

Fredeke said:


> We may come back to that. If you'll indulge my speculations...
> Since no brand of computer/OS is reliable anymore (Jobs' Macs used to be very reliable)...



What do you call "reliable?". We use 4 studios, 5 days a week, every week of the year, and there are very few problems, certainly fewer than in the previous eras. I don't mean to be argumentative, but what is your benchmark for "reliable"?


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## JEPA (Jun 25, 2019)

FYI guys:

Harrison MixBus *opens* Pro Tools projects (it's in beta state)
other systems with HD: Digital Performer & Motu
other systems with HD: Nuendo & Yamaha

Best performance: Reaper
all along best DAW: Sequoia (integration to most HD systems)


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## Fredeke (Jun 25, 2019)

Daryl said:


> What do you call "reliable?". We use 4 studios, 5 days a week, every week of the year, and there are very few problems, certainly fewer than in the previous eras. I don't mean to be argumentative, but what is your benchmark for "reliable"?


My own experience being more anecdotic than yours, I'll accept if I'm wrong. However here's my argument.

I bought a 2015 Macbook Pro, and I've had a lot of problems I never had with my 2005 MBP, like glitches and dropouts, random MIDI latencies (???), and other issues I'm sorry to say I gladly forgot about when moving away from Mac.
Even when booting up, the startup screen effects (like fades etc.) were glitchy from the very first time (and the dual monitor support made them worse), while they were smooth and glitchless in my previous Mac. Not that this matters in itself, but it gave an ominous bad quality feel from the start - which only confirmed itself later on.
Then a friend bought a MBP for movie editing that same year, and had frustrating issues, like: the USB port believes the HD is disconnected (when it is not), then reconnects and disconnects again, many times in a couple of seconds, covering up the entire screen with warning messages that she has to close one by one manually, before she can even see what she was working on again.
So, sure, those are only two experiences, but it was enough to steer me away from Mac for good. Now I get mad at Windows' issues, but at least I don't get mad at how much I paid for that piece of bugware on top of it. To me, today's Apple quality doesn't justify their prices anymore. (And frankly, while still not great for real time, Windows is much better than it used to be.)

I'm wondering, which generation of Macs do you use? Because older ones are still great... And do you have a technician whose main job is to maintain the computers in your studios, so that you don't have to deal with that yourself? I would love that, but can't afford it.


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## Daryl (Jun 25, 2019)

Fredeke said:


> I'm wondering, which generation of Macs do you use? And do you have a technician whose main job is to maintain the computers in your studios, so that you don't have to deal with that yourself?


We use Windows...! We only have Mac Minis for Final Cut, opening Logic projects and a couple of museum pieces for running Keymap Pro. We changed all studios to Windows based in 2008 (I think). The computers don't need to be maintained, other than shifting things off drives to the back-up storage systems. The change over to Windows 10 was not without its glitches, but everything is now working well.


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## Fredeke (Jun 25, 2019)

Daryl said:


> We use Windows...! We only have Mac Minis for Final Cut, opening Logic projects and a couple of museum pieces for running Keymap Pro. We changed all studios to Windows based in 2008 (I think). The computers don't need to be maintained, other than shifting things off drives to the back-up storage systems. The change over to Windows 10 was not without its glitches, but everything is now working well.


Yes, I agree Windows has got better. I thought you were talking about Macs. I'd say both are about the same quality/reliability nowadays.
Isn't it funny to see how Bill Gates' departure seems to have done Microsoft as much good as Steve Jobs' passing has been bad for Apple? Well, funny and predictable, too - given the characters.

- But hey, this thread is digressing and it's all my fault.
I'll try to drop the matter...


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## chocobitz825 (Jun 25, 2019)

They say you have to vote with your wallet. Just cancelled my renewal now. I cant support their business model and I probably open Pro Tools 2-3 times a year at this point. Good to hear Harrison is beta for support. Ill try that out for a while since i like that DAW way more than pro tools.


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## ProfoundSilence (Jun 25, 2019)

so glad I never have to touch protools. 

That's some real predatory stuff there... the reality is that the more they screw paying customers, the more will flock to other platforms - or simply pirate it instead. If I paid for a perpetual license only to get shafted like that, I'd not feel an ounce of guilt torrenting it until the company bankrupted. I'm not saying every daw should be the price of reaper, but clearly - people are willing to spend the money at a reasonable amount, and if you're not getting the people who are now using other platforms - it's because PT sucks, and other options are now getting attention despite pretty much decades of professional monopoly to carry your IP.


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## Daryl (Jun 25, 2019)

JEPA said:


> FYI guys:
> 
> Harrison MixBus *opens* Pro Tools projects (it's in beta state)


With a huge number of caveats. Opening Pro Tools projects as Pro Tools does it would require breaking the encryption, so would be illegal. FWIW one has always been able to open PT5 files in 3rd part software. It was afterwards that they encrypted the files to stop it.


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## Daryl (Jun 25, 2019)

I understand that people (including me) don't like the subscription model, but I'm afraid if you want to work with the top studios, you have no other option. There is no alternative.


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## Guy Rowland (Jun 25, 2019)

On the re-instatement option, it might be about to get worse. Avid have yet to confirm that the reinstatements will work at all after July 1st, most unclear on regular Pro Tools in particular. Once lapsed, it could never be re-activated to get an up to date version.


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## Michael Antrum (Jun 25, 2019)

Daryl said:


> I understand that people (including me) don't like the subscription model, but I'm afraid if you want to work with the top studios, you have no other option. There is no alternative.



For now.....


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## Fredeke (Jun 25, 2019)

Daryl said:


> I understand that people (including me) don't like the subscription model, but I'm afraid if you want to work with the top studios, you have no other option. There is no alternative.


I'm afraid you're right.



Michael Antrum said:


> For now.....


I hope you're right.


No, seriously, there's a risk of segregating pros into two categories: the super badass who work for Disney on one hand, and the more modest ones who work for youtubers and self-produced bands, along with the casual amateur. Not that those cateories don't exist already, but they're far from airtight. They could become it.

But whether such a split is sustainable remains to be seen.


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## Daryl (Jun 25, 2019)

Michael Antrum said:


> For now.....


Given that the top studios have unlimited access to Avid, regularly get asked what they want, and are generally treated very well, why do you see that changing? Which hardware/software company is going to replace Pro Tools?


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## ironbut (Jun 25, 2019)

I've been a big fan of Reaper and with the last few upgrades Logic too.
While PT hasn't done much but add Falcon and moved some of the functions of HD to Std, the other DAWs have made tremendous strides and added the functions that set PT ahead.
I can't see the big studios giving up all the hardware integration that HDX offers but if I owned one of those I'd be worried that Avid has gone for broke with this latest price increase.


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## Fredeke (Jun 25, 2019)

There's one feature I think Pro Tools trumps the competition with: the ability to work simultaneously on the same project from two different studios, via the net. Or at least that's what I understood from an ad. Can someone confirm it?

Oh, and btw, the French importer of Avid products quit a couple of years ago, because the plans were getting too complicated to keep up with (and, I suppose, their margin was too thin).


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## dzilizzi (Jun 25, 2019)

ironbut said:


> While PT hasn't done much but add Falcon ....


Right after I went and bought it. So annoying. Though I guess when my license runs out, I will still have Falcon.


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## JJP (Jun 25, 2019)

I'm not a fan of Avid's subscription model, but I'm one of those people who has PT files being sent to me every week. It's essential for the work I do, so it's not a dealbreaker to pay $400/year. Working that expense back into my billing will hardly be a blip over the course of a year.

As Daryl said, it's the standard for work with large studios. It does what it does very well. You got me, Avid.


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## ironbut (Jun 25, 2019)

I think that Pyramix/Merging Technologies is the only DAW that's really challenged PT in the large multi media facilities but they are even more $$$ (I still have a PC with XP and Pyramix in storage).
And setting up an entire educational system with licensing still makes them a tough nut to crack in that setting.


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## JJP (Jun 25, 2019)

Pyramix is indeed a wonderful platform, superior to PT in some areas. As you mention, it doesn't have the traction in the industry of PT. Plus, I think many people are like me and don't want to have to learn another program when PT does what they need already.


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## Michael Antrum (Jun 25, 2019)

Daryl said:


> Given that the top studios have unlimited access to Avid, regularly get asked what they want, and are generally treated very well, why do you see that changing? Which hardware/software company is going to replace Pro Tools?



Because a lot of the upcoming youngsters will be used to other systems, and will start asking for those systems to be available - exactly what happened to Quark. Repro houses that were Quark & Mac centric were asked by their customer for other workflows, and over the space of a couple of years the market changed.

Studios are businesses, will provide customers with what they want. If a new upcoming artist wants his work done in Logic or Studio One - then the studios will soon start to offer it.


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## Daryl (Jun 25, 2019)

Michael Antrum said:


> Studios are businesses, will provide customers with what they want. If a new upcoming artist wants his work done in Logic or Studio One - then the studios will soon start to offer it.



This is true, but when it all falls apart on the session, and the software is "to blame" the youngster will never risk their money again.


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## JohnG (Jun 25, 2019)

Daryl said:


> This is true, but when it all falls apart on the session, and the software is "to blame" the youngster will never risk their money again.



100%

Things go wrong -- they do. And if you use PT it is that much less likely that the blame is laid at your doorstep. Also, in case people chime in with, "it's only because it's industry standard," I would say from my own experience it's not just that. PT is an excellent audio platform, with zero latency (close to zero) for recording. It behaves predictably and all the engineers know how it works.


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## David Cuny (Jun 25, 2019)

Daryl said:


> With a huge number of caveats. Opening Pro Tools projects as Pro Tools does it would require breaking the encryption, so would be illegal. FWIW one has always been able to open PT5 files in 3rd part software. It was afterwards that they encrypted the files to stop it.


Since this encryption exists solely for the purpose of locking users out of their own data files, there's a good possibility that this would fall under the "Right to Repair."

That said, IANAL (and don't play one on the internet), and I wouldn't want to _my_ software to be on the bleeding edge of that lawsuit. 

So yes - a huge number of caveats.


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## JEPA (Jun 25, 2019)

chocobitz825 said:


> Good to hear Harrison is beta for support.


I have already opened 3 projects with Harrison MixBus


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## JEPA (Jun 25, 2019)

Daryl said:


> With a huge number of caveats. Opening Pro Tools projects as Pro Tools does it would require breaking the encryption, so would be illegal. FWIW one has always been able to open PT5 files in 3rd part software. It was afterwards that they encrypted the files to stop it.


I don't think Harrison guys would want to be breaking the law. Maybe they have an agreement?
And of course not all the project opens "as it is". For me the important thing was the audio files and tracks. Arrangement was a little bit chaotic but I knew were the files belong. After years and years I could open and save again old precious projects and work with it in my new system today


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## Daryl (Jun 25, 2019)

JEPA said:


> After years and years I could open and save again old precious projects and work with it in my new system today


Yes, that is the purpose. New projects, forget it.


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## Michael Antrum (Jun 25, 2019)

Just Got back from a Stray Cats concert. God I miss the 80’s.......

I do appreciate that ProTools is the industry standard, but when you read things like these, you wonder how long that will continue.
_
‘I work with 3 or 4 new interns a year at one of the studios I engineer for. Not one of them in the past 4 years has any real Pro Tools experience. I couldn't leave them alone tracking even a solo vocal, or have them route anything or perform even simple edits. It's already happening, none of them own a license, and some are mid20s when they're here. But as another poster in another thread said, no it's the studio's fault for not teaching them it, it's just not 'pro' enough..... Because you can't be a 'proper' studio without HDX... The owners are Cubase/uad lovers from a dance background and the interns do all their work for them in it. I bring my own iLok to run PT (infact I installed my own boot drive to the machine, so i can mirror my home set up and plugins!) but they do have a copy of 11 for anyone else who comes in. I bought my first copy of LE 7.4 and MBOX2 Mini at 18... those were the days! Then it was PT M-Powered with ProFire2626... and etc etc.
Younger generation have no interest in Pro Tools at all. Why would they? It's buggy as ****, expensive, and badly optimised. And more and more music creation is moving away from needing PT. Everyone uses logic it seems. Any artists that come in, never want to take PT session away if it's not an end-to-end delivery. They want stems for logic....’
_
And...
_
‘It makes me wonder about my future interns. The prohibitive cost of entry for Pro Tools will preclude your average 19 year old’s accessibility. In the long term, that could mean fewer-still useful young people in professional music studios that make their way as engineers (and there are already so very few), and eventually, a phasing out of pt altogether. 

I intend to start polling my current interns to find out what DAWs they and their peers use, with an eye towards switching away from exclusive pt use at my commercial room in the near future.’
_
There are fewer and fewer recording studios - lots of well known operations have ceased trading, and more and more people are building their own studios at home. It seems that Avid might well not have enough major studios to derive enough income from - so why do they seem hell bent on alienating the volume market - amateurs, hobbyists and students.

Anyway, I’m sure Avid know what they are doing.

Edit: oh - it seems the post I was replying to has been deleted...


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## dzilizzi (Jun 25, 2019)

Michael Antrum said:


> Anyway, I’m sure Avid know what they are doing.




Unfortunately, it is very much reminding me of Sonar right before Cakewalk went out of business. It was just fortunate Bandlab picked it up. One of the biggest problems I had as a younger person starting out with ProTools was the RTAS then AAX plugin format. There are almost no free plugins in those formats. But there are tons in vst and au. So not only is it expensive, you can't even take advantage of all the great free stuff out there. So if you are broke, you might as well use Cakewalk or Reaper to get started. Or Logic if your parents will buy your Mac.


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## Geoff Grace (Jun 25, 2019)

Michael Antrum said:


> _‘I intend to start polling my current interns to find out what DAWs they and their peers use, with an eye towards switching away from exclusive pt use at my commercial room in the near future.’_


I expect that their answer will be Ableton Live.

Platforms come and go. Remember tape?

Best,

Geoff


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## JEPA (Jun 26, 2019)

Geoff Grace said:


> I expect that their answer will be Ableton Live.
> 
> Platforms come and go. Remember tape?
> 
> ...


That's because I bought for some months a bargain license of Ableton Live to have the upgrade path.... and there a friend of mine came with a project for radio broadcast in Ableton Live, I could deliver successfully! 

So we have four DAWs + AVID, FinalCut to offer and work with


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## robgb (Jun 26, 2019)

dzilizzi said:


> or Reaper to get started


Or maybe to use forever, since it's at least as good as and probably much better than Pro Tools.


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## dzilizzi (Jun 26, 2019)

robgb said:


> Or maybe to use forever, since it's at least as good as and probably much better than Pro Tools.


For me, the fanboy response I usually get about Reaper really turns me off on it. And someday, I may give it a try. But until it has a chord track like Cubase, I can't see me using it any more than I do S1.


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## Quasar (Jun 26, 2019)

robgb said:


> Or maybe to use forever, since it's at least as good as and probably much better than Pro Tools.


As a Reaper user I can well relate to the Pro-Tools subscription pain. The license is good for two whole number versions, after which you have to pay again if you want to stay current.

So based on past release cycles, Reaper is costing me $60 approximately every 7 years! Highway robbery man...


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## JJP (Jun 26, 2019)

Michael Antrum said:


> ‘It makes me wonder about my future interns. The prohibitive cost of entry for Pro Tools will preclude your average 19 year old’s accessibility.



Oh my. There are so many things about this post that concern me. Interns at 19 being expected to come in and know how to run a session with ProTools? Expecting to leave interns alone to track a solo vocal? In the USA those would be kids just out of high school. That's not a place I want to be recording.


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## Fredeke (Jun 26, 2019)

Quasar said:


> As a Reaper user I can well relate to the Pro-Tools subscription pain. The license is good for two whole number versions, after which you have to pay again if you want to stay current.
> 
> So based on past release cycles, Reaper is costing me $60 approximately every 7 years! Highway robbery man...


I second this. I've been using Reaper for nearly 15 years (on both platforms), and it cost me 2x $60. As version 6 is coming, I may need (or rather want) to pay $60 again. In total, that will be equivalent to $12 per year (not adjusted for inflation )

Note that if you don't register, Reaper is still fully functional - you just get a nagging splash box at startup. I guess some could live with that, but I feel so respected by the publisher that I am glad to pay.

A feeling of trust is also essential to rely on a tool I use everyday. I get that from Cockos (Reaper), Renoise, Ghisler (Total Commander)... Avid only elicits distrust in me: The ilok makes me feel like I'm watched in my home all day long - like there's no trust, and their ever changing pricing practices would make me feel like their hostage. Reaper never changed its price in 15 years.


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## Fredeke (Jun 26, 2019)

JJP said:


> Oh my. There are so many things about this post that concern me. Interns at 19 being expected to come in and know how to run a session with ProTools? Expecting to leave interns alone to track a solo vocal? In the USA those would be kids just out of high school. That's not a place I want to be recording.


One of the best engineers I know started this way. And yes, on ProTools. He was good from the start, and only got better over the years. Of course that was before everybody wanted to be an engineer...


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## JohnG (Jun 26, 2019)

robgb said:


> Or maybe to use forever, since it's at least as good as and probably much better than Pro Tools.



Can Reaper accommodate zero latency recording? That would be quite interesting.


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## Fredeke (Jun 26, 2019)

JohnG said:


> Can Reaper accommodate zero latency recording? That would be quite interesting.


Not that I know of. Very low latencies can be achieved, with a fine-tuned system and a good interface driver (like non-USB RME's): I know someone who got it as low as 1ms, though I'm happy with my modest 6ms. But that apparently remains one of PT's strong suits - if you buy one of their $7k to $20k interfaces, right?

Also, nobody is pausing to ask whether it's fair to compare a $60 soft to a $600 (sorry, $1000 - no, wait - oh I don't know anymore) soft... I'm not saying it isn't. But I don't know.

Anyway, doesn't minimum latency depend more on the hardware (and its drivers) than on the software? How does PT fare, latency-wise, with third-party hardware?


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 26, 2019)

Fredeke said:


> Anyway, doesn't low latency depend more on the hardware (and its drivers) than on the software?



Yep, and you can get zero-latency recording with something as simple as a Steinberg UR22 USB interface.


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## robgb (Jun 26, 2019)

dzilizzi said:


> For me, the fanboy response I usually get about Reaper really turns me off on it. And someday, I may give it a try. But until it has a chord track like Cubase, I can't see me using it any more than I do S1.


I guess it's no worse than the Pro Tools fanboy response. Or the Logic fanboy response. Or the Cubase fanboy response. People like what they like, use what they prefer, and calling them fanboys isn't really productive.



JohnG said:


> Can Reaper accommodate zero latency recording? That would be quite interesting.


Well, I'm not absolutely sure Pro Tools or any other DAW can achieve zero latency (despite any claims), but I've never once had a single issue with latency in Reaper.


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## Fredeke (Jun 26, 2019)

robgb said:


> Well, I'm not absolutely sure Pro Tools or any other DAW can achieve zero latency (despite any claims)


Zero latency is technically impossible without bypassing the computer entirely (which many prosumer interfaces provide as a monitoring option). What Avid actually means is ultra low latency: 0.7ms if I remember well (but only with their expensive interfaces, otherwise it's something like 1.5ms). And other brands may just refer to the computer-bypass trick.


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## robgb (Jun 26, 2019)

Fredeke said:


> Zero latency is technically impossible without bypassing the computer entirely (which many prosumer interfaces provide as a monitoring option). What Avid means is ultra low latency: 0.7ms if I remember well (but only with their expensive interfaces, otherwise it's something like 1.5ms). And other brands may just refer to the direct monitoring trick.


This article suggests to me that latency can be a problem with Pro Tools. So I'm not sure what the zero latency claims are about:

https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/ho...one-noticed-how-important-it-is-free-tutorial


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## dzilizzi (Jun 26, 2019)

robgb said:


> I guess it's no worse than the Pro Tools fanboy response. Or the Logic fanboy response. Or the Cubase fanboy response. People like what they like, use what they prefer, and calling them fanboys isn't really productive.


The Reaper love is not bad here. You all are very good talking about the pros and cons. I first heard about Reaper over on Gearslutz and according to the users there, it can do no wrong. It is the most perfect DAW ever! Everyone complains about ProTools and Cubase and we use it anyway. That's what I meant by fanboys. It is not a logical love to me. After hanging out here, I've actually thought about trying it.


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## JohnG (Jun 26, 2019)

Interesting, @Fredeke thanks.

You can do near-zero latency on Digital Performer too, as long as you use their Cuemix setup. I've not met an engineer who does use it but it's possible.

Just one minor (but to me, meaningful) correction to your post, which is that the HD-Native Thunderbolt PT interface is about $1,000. Still not nothing, but not nearly as expensive as once they were. 

It's not _quite_ as low-latency as HDX, but a lot more affordable for small / home studios. 

There are plenty of posts comparing HDX to HD Native Thunderbolt on duc.avid.com -- this being one:

Posted by Matt Hepworth on duc forum: "96kHz with HDN [HD Native interface] at 64 buffer is slightly lower than 44.1kHz on a TDM system, but it's over three times the latency of 96kHz (0.48ms) with a TDM system (if you're using HD I/O with both systems for a fair comparison). HDX at 96kHz is 0.50ms. TDM and HDX are that low REGARDLESS OF BUFFER.

HDN is 1.67ms, but only at 96kHz and with a buffer of 64. At a buffer of 128 it's unusable for tracking for most artists trying to record vocals, saxophone, etc.."

I don't know Matt at all; there are a lot of people who seem knowledgeable there but -- it's the internet.

I've recorded with the HD Native Thunderbolt and it's fine if you set the buffer to 64. I record at 48k typically, unless it's an orchestra at a recording venue, and then the engineer does everything so I remain blissfully ignorant.


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## Fredeke (Jun 26, 2019)

JohnG said:


> Just one minor (but to me, meaningful) correction to your post, which is that the HD-Native Thunderbolt PT interface is about $1,000. Still not nothing, but not nearly as expensive as once they were.


I stand corrected. Last time I checked (in 2015), their cheapest interface was $7000. But I see now I'm not up to date.

ps: I would love to set my buffer at 64. But 256 is more like it (128 for ultra-light sessions, 512 for cpu-intensive ones)


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## robgb (Jun 26, 2019)

dzilizzi said:


> I first heard about Reaper over on Gearslutz and according to the users there, it can do no wrong.


Call me a little skeptical. I haven't read much about Reaper at Gearslutz, but I imagine that people are hyped about Reaper because it is so customizable and can do just about anything you want it to—within reason. I don't think that's saying it can do no wrong. Like any software, it has glitches, problems from time to time. Fortunately, new releases to fix any problems and to make improvements come out monthly.


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## JohnG (Jun 26, 2019)

robgb said:


> This article suggests to me that latency can be a problem with Pro Tools



If so, that's really not accurate. The one real advantage (_not_ attributable to its being "the industry standard") PT has going for it is low/near-zero latency. 

Otherwise its continued dominance, I think really would be solely attributable to it's being the legacy industry standard. Mind you, it's good for other things, but that latency thing is tough to crack.

The other advantages (all the engineers use it, all the dub stages I've seen use it, all the really large studios use it....) are more a matter of it being there first. That's not nothing, but over time that would be easier to change.


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## Fredeke (Jun 26, 2019)

robgb said:


> Call me a little skeptical. I haven't read much about Reaper at Gearslutz, but I imagine that people are hyped about Reaper because it is so customizable and can do just about anything you want it to—within reason. I don't think that's saying it can do no wrong. Like any software, it has glitches, problems from time to time. Fortunately, new releases to fix any problems and to make improvements come out monthly.


Reaper can do some wrong, and I've done plenty of wrong with it !


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## robgb (Jun 26, 2019)

JohnG said:


> You can do near-zero latency on Digital Performer too, as long as you use their Cuemix setup. I've not met an engineer who does use it but it's possible.


I'm not really sure what the issue is. I have an inexpensive Behringer UMC202HD and I can get zero latency for my live playing by simply using the direct monitor. It really has nothing to do with the software—although latency is very, very low on my Kontakt instruments as well.


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## dzilizzi (Jun 26, 2019)

robgb said:


> Call me a little skeptical. I haven't read much about Reaper at Gearslutz, but I imagine that people are hyped about Reaper because it is so customizable and can do just about anything you want it to—within reason. I don't think that's saying it can do no wrong. Like any software, it has glitches, problems from time to time. Fortunately, new releases to fix any problems and to make improvements come out monthly.


There are a few that would jump on every DAW complaint thread and extol the virtues of switching to Reaper. It was annoying, especially when you just want to fix whatever is wrong and go on with your project.


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## Fredeke (Jun 26, 2019)

dzilizzi said:


> There are a few that would jump on every DAW complaint thread and extol the virtues of switching to Reaper. It was annoying, especially when you just want to fix whatever is wrong and go on with your project.


I must agree. I am a Reaper convert myself, but I don't get why we're talking so much about it in a PT thread.
How about switching to Adobe Audition, for a change? (It has nice colors and can play several tracks at once!)


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## JohnG (Jun 26, 2019)

robgb said:


> I'm not really sure what the issue is.



I know what you mean -- if there are these other ways to do it, why would people continue to pay so much for Pro Tools?

For large studios, it's reliability and really an astonishing capacity for tracks. At a large orchestra session for a film, there may be a hundred tracks (stereo) playing back with pre-records and a dozen or more mics rolling during take after take, pickups and all that. When the orchestra's $10k an hour, or more, you simply can't run out of headroom on the recording device, or run into some other limitation.

For me, it's working with other people, my customers and engineers and studios. They ALL use Pro Tools. Just sent a session to Abbey Road and they flew it in in seconds; we recorded the group and then I get the session back.

To some extent these "advantages" are more an "industry standard" thing than a clear performance advantage. But low latency with a huge session -- that's indispensable.


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## robgb (Jun 26, 2019)

Fredeke said:


> I must agree. I am a Reaper convert myself, but I don't get why we're talking so much about it in a PT thread.
> How about switching to Adobe Audition, for a change?



I brought it up because someone suggested that Reaper might be a good place to "start" before graduating to another DAW. I just wanted to point out that Reaper is not a "starter" DAW, but a sophisticated piece of software that holds its own against other DAWs.


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## Fredeke (Jun 26, 2019)

robgb said:


> I brought it up because someone suggested that Reaper might be a good place to "start" before graduating to another DAW. I just wanted to point out that Reaper is not a "starter" DAW, but a sophisticated piece of software that holds its own against other DAWs.


Yeah, don't worry. I plead guilty.



JohnG said:


> To some extent these "advantages" are more an "industry standard" thing than a clear performance advantage. But low latency with a huge session -- that's indispensable.


I never pushed any DAW that far, so I really can't speak to that. But I'm afraid you're right. I wouldn't dare try and push my home setup so far. I've recorded up to 24 tracks simultaneously and everything went well - but 240 tracks?


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## robgb (Jun 26, 2019)

JohnG said:


> I know what you mean -- if there are these other ways to do it, why would people continue to pay so much for Pro Tools?


You've completely ignored that there are other ways to do it, as I pointed out. I'm glad the big studios use Pro Tools and it's something they can rely on. And they can certainly afford the ridiculous price they pay for that one feature that may or may not matter. Good on them. But when I work with studios, I simply deliver stems and the choice of DAW means little in that regard, so clearly your demands are different than mine.


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## dzilizzi (Jun 26, 2019)

robgb said:


> I brought it up because someone suggested that Reaper might be a good place to "start" before graduating to another DAW. I just wanted to point out that Reaper is not a "starter" DAW, but a sophisticated piece of software that holds its own against other DAWs.


LOL! That was me. And I didn't mean it was a starter DAW, just that it is affordable for a student which makes it a first choice. Every other DAW is in the hundreds of dollars to get into, even with the educational discounts. Who can afford that on a student budget?


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## Daryl (Jun 26, 2019)

robgb said:


> But when I work with studios, I simply deliver stems and the choice of DAW means little in that regard, so clearly your demands are different than mine.


Then how do you deal with Playlists and multiple takes that need editing afterwards?


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## JJP (Jun 26, 2019)

I love how this whole discussion has shifted to the argument that software used in professional-level studios should be priced to be affordable to students... even high-school students.


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## dzilizzi (Jun 26, 2019)

Yeah, sorry. Blame my ADD. I get off topic easy. I'm going to go away now.


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## JohnG (Jun 26, 2019)

Rob, I haven't at all ignored you; on the contrary, I acknowledged what you said and I think you make good points.

Personally, if I ran Avid, I would try to narrow the gap between pricing of PT and alternatives, so that there is somewhat less incentive for larger facilities to change to something else. I reason that, given that your biggest customers (Sony etc.) are also run as businesses, at some point they might get fed up if someone else offers a large-scale, zero/low latency alternative that is reliable even for huge sessions.

In the mean time, I don't think I need every upgrade so that's why I didn't renew.


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## Michael Antrum (Jun 26, 2019)

JJP said:


> I love how this whole discussion has shifted to the argument that software used in professional-level studios should be priced to be affordable to students... even high-school students.



You want the upcoming next generation to be learning and using your tools - so when they graduate to professional status, they take your tools with them. That’s why companies such as Autodesk have really serious discount student packages available to them for things like Maya & 3D Studio Max.

I know younger filmmakers who have been doing some great work with the free version of Da Vinci Resolve. When they need to put their hands in their pockets for more capable solutions, who do you think is more likely to benefit from that ?

When you could get an MBox 2 and a lower protools license for around £400 (IIRC) it was such a smart move on their behalf. Now they are pricing themselves out of this market.

Doesn’t have to be the full fat Pro Tools ultimate you’d find in a high end studio, which I can see would be quite understandably more expensive. But a capable package for a reasonable price for student and hobbyists makes a great deal of sense in the long term.

Don’t see what is so controversial about that as a discussion point.


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## MauroPantin (Jun 26, 2019)

As someone not located in the US or Europe (I'm in Argentina): I can tell you guys that even though a PT subscription or license is part of the cost of business, at that price the amount of goods and services you can procure here makes it absolutely crazy to go for it. This is due to the exchange rate. You go for Reaper, it is what I've done and most mid-size studios do here. It is highly customizable, very reasonably priced and gets the job done. Few people here care about the 3-4ms diff in latency when you are talking about an overhead of around $1500 over a 5-year period that you can cover with just $225 and entitles you to two full version upgrades. I've used PT and I've used other daws... It is the standard now but it will change over the next few years. There's nothing to miss.


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## Quasar (Jun 26, 2019)

robgb said:


> I'm not really sure what the issue is. I have an inexpensive Behringer UMC202HD and I can get zero latency for my live playing by simply using the direct monitor. It really has nothing to do with the software—although latency is very, very low on my Kontakt instruments as well.



I don't care about literal "zero latency" monitoring. When playing VIs that generate MIDI and run through an audio interface and a computer and perform DA/AD conversion, it seems that the laws of physics will mandate some latency. What I care about is the RTL being = or >10ms, which is enough to both play and monitor in de facto real time IMHO. Even with live musicians, you're going to have a certain amount of latency due to the positioning of the players in the room, so mathematical zero is neither attainable nor desirable in either physical space or virtual space... My simplistic way of looking at it anyway...

...I agree that the _fanboi _DAW stuff obviously gets ridiculous when comparing workflow, features etc., but when comparing pricing and marketing it's perfectly appropriate to advocate for a product that is fairly priced and has righteous CP as opposed to a product that costs a gazillion dollars per year and requires Big Brother dongle/cloud oversight. Reaper, besides being a wonderful, deep and full-featured DAW, is also a shining light in terms of how software should be presented and sold. I've never seen or used Pro Tools, but everything I've read about Avid's business model leads me to believe that they're on the diametric opposite end of this spectrum.


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## Michael Antrum (Jun 26, 2019)

Now for a DAW joke.

How can you tell if someone uses Reaper ?











Don’t worry - they’ll tell you.

(With apologies to reaper users, for whom I have nothing but respect.....)


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## JohnG (Jun 26, 2019)

so...it's a Reaper thread now?

If you've "never seen or used Pro Tools," I don't think that's the ideal position from which to comment, even though I sort of agree with you.

It's a cost/value proposition that absolutely does not work for everyone. That said, the first round of PT stuff was over $10k, over 10 years ago, so it's much more affordable than that now.

...except for the subscription.


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## dzilizzi (Jun 26, 2019)

Well, I guess we can only complain for so long before the subject gets changed.


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## MauroPantin (Jun 26, 2019)

To me more than the cost of the subscription it is the added uncertainty of the whole deal, when looking at this in dynamic terms rather than static. 

The numbers might look good right now to get the subscription, and all of the compatible gear, and the plugins, and the training, and all of the other associated costs of using it. Then, two years from now, imagine the subscription cost changes again... Something like "In an effort for AVID to continue to provide professional audio software of the highest quality we will be re-focusing our business on major clients and leading studios. This is a big move for us and we hope you'll be joining us in this new era..." yada yada "oh BTW it is now $700 a year". You don't own a PT rig you can just choose not to update. Does the cost/value work out now? 

You have this entire capital already invested around using PT, Avid takes advantage of that with this price hike, and there's no guarantee that it will not happen again. Everything changes and every company out there could do this, but they usually don't. And Avid's track record isn't stellar in the "treatment of their customers" department. In the end this means you are:

A) slightly less competitive 
or 
B) losing a bit of revenue due to the increased overhead 
or 
C) changing your entire workflow and losing the invested capital in plugins and training (and also, time learning to work in some other DAW). 

Really think about this: They get to influence a major aspect of your business at any given time based on the needs of their shareholders. I'm not quite comfortable with that, nor do I think it is the best choice for the small studio or lone-wolf composer. Remember Entertainment720: Keeping a low overhead and running a lean business is a major factor if a dry spell hits (or if you have absolutely positively no customers, as was their case).


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## robgb (Jun 26, 2019)

Daryl said:


> Then how do you deal with Playlists and multiple takes that need editing afterwards?


By using Reaper's take system.


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## robgb (Jun 26, 2019)

Re: the whole subscription model. This, to me, is a lose-lose for any creator. What seems like a minor amount of money every month turns into hundreds and then thousands over an extended period of time with no hope of ever owning the software. I had this problem with with Adobe Creative Cloud, which is why I switched from a twenty year user of Photoshop to a very happy user of Affinity Photo. Subscription models are designed to benefit the software developer, not the end user. Anytime a company goes subscription, it's time to run in the opposite direction. 

You could argue that a subscription model allows you to try out the software at a reasonable price, but that short term gain could wind up costing you plenty in the long run.


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## dzilizzi (Jun 26, 2019)

robgb said:


> Re: the whole subscription model. This, to me, is a lose-lose for any creator. What seems like a minor amount of money every month turns into hundreds and then thousands over an extended period of time with no hope of ever owning the software. I had this problem with with Adobe Creative Cloud, which is why I switched from a twenty year user of Photoshop to a very happy user of Affinity Photo. Subscription models are designed to benefit the software developer, not the end user. Anytime a company goes subscription, it's time to run in the opposite direction.
> 
> You could argue that a subscription model allows you to try out the software at a reasonable price, but that short term gain could wind up costing you plenty in the long run.


They only one I've seen that I like is EW Composer Cloud. You can own the products. And if you need something once, pay for a month. No requirements for extended subscriptions. No penalties if you want it only 2 months in a year. And if you like something, you can buy it. 

I quit using Adobe Photoshop for the same reason. It is just too expensive and there are other options.


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## robgb (Jun 26, 2019)

dzilizzi said:


> They only one I've seen that I like is EW Composer Cloud. You can own the products.


I agree that EW does it right by giving you a choice. You aren't locked in.


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## Quasar (Jun 26, 2019)

JohnG said:


> so...it's a Reaper thread now?
> 
> If you've "never seen or used Pro Tools," I don't think that's the ideal position from which to comment, even though I sort of agree with you.
> 
> ...


In fairness, I made no comment regarding the Pro Tools DAW per se, because you are quite right that I am not qualified to have an opinion. I only commented on Avid's business practices regarding cost, licensing and copy protection, which I have acquainted myself with. You don't need to own the product to familiarize yourself with their marketing and the sort of deal they offer.

Since I've never used PT, I can't competently assert that it's not worth the cost, however expensive. But the fact that you and many other PT and ex-PT users "sort of agree" with me indicates that I'm not too far off-base in believing it to be absurdly, even surrealistically overpriced, exploiting culturally-ingrained notions people tend to have about "professionalism" and all of that... I'll never know first-hand, and I'm 100% fine with that.


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## Daryl (Jun 27, 2019)

robgb said:


> By using Reaper's take system.


So how are you going to open the Pro Tools session in Reaper to load Pro Tools' Playlists into Reaper? Have you tried it?

Look, I'm no evangelist for Pro Tools, but for anyone recording in a Pro Tools based studio, unless the editing is done on the session, and consolidated files bounced out, there is no easy way to transfer the information to another format. Even OMF or AAF are not going to work very efficiently. It's far better just to stump up the money, edit in Pro Tools, and then transfer everything over, if you don't want to mix in Pro Tools.


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## Daryl (Jun 27, 2019)

Quasar said:


> Since I've never used PT, I can't competently assert that it's not worth the cost...


Whether or not it's worth it is entirely in the eye of the beholder. For someone who uses samples and works in their home studio, I doubt it. For someone who is recording at large, orchestral studios once a year, it is worth it. In those terms, the cost is tiny.


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## Guy Rowland (Jun 27, 2019)

Just to reiterate for those affected - Avid have yet to confirm what reinstatement options there are after July 1st, with the distinct possibility that there will be no option to reinstate to a permanent license after that point. This is in 4 days time.

Customer service have apparently told someone who has enquired initially that "_Based on the price change that will take place on July 1, unfortunately, there will be no upgrade reinstatement plan available anymore. The only options to get to the latest version of Pro Tools, if you have an expired annual update and support plan, are to purchase either an annual or monthly subscription_". But then subsequently that _"I just received word from my team, that upgrades are still being evaluated. Rest assured that we are going to update further you regarding this"_.

4 days time.


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## dzilizzi (Jun 27, 2019)

Daryl said:


> So how are you going to open the Pro Tools session in Reaper to load Pro Tools' Playlists into Reaper? Have you tried it?
> 
> Look, I'm no evangelist for Pro Tools, but for anyone recording in a Pro Tools based studio, unless the editing is done on the session, and consolidated files bounced out, there is no easy way to transfer the information to another format. Even OMF or AAF are not going to work very efficiently. It's far better just to stump up the money, edit in Pro Tools, and then transfer everything over, if you don't want to mix in Pro Tools.


The audio files are still there. Switching a session from a Mac to PC without properly saving first, I lost the session and had to import it all into my version for a school assignment. Fortunately, other than the vocals, it wasn't a complicated session. All the takes are there. If they are labeled well, it can be done. Not that I would recommend it.


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## Daryl (Jun 27, 2019)

dzilizzi said:


> The audio files are still there. Switching a session from a Mac to PC without properly saving first, I lost the session and had to import it all into my version for a school assignment. Fortunately, other than the vocals, it wasn't a complicated session. All the takes are there. If they are labeled well, it can be done. Not that I would recommend it.


Of course they are there. However, it would be an absolute nightmare to deal with all of that, simply because one was too mean to shell out for a subscription. Even one full orchestra project per year would pay for itself many times over.


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## dzilizzi (Jun 27, 2019)

Daryl said:


> Of course they are there. However, it would be an absolute nightmare to deal with all of that, simply because one was too mean to shell out for a subscription. Even one full orchestra project per year would pay for itself many times over.


If I was recording orchestras, you can bet I would be using Pro Tools or maybe Nuendo. For me, most of my recording is vocals. Everything else is usually virtual instruments. And? I bought 3 more years at $99. My current update plan runs out in September. By that time, I'm hoping they will either have changed policy again or I will have figured out how to use one of my other DAWs well enough to replace it.


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## gamma-ut (Jun 27, 2019)

MauroPantin said:


> Remember Entertainment720: Keeping a low overhead and running a lean business is a major factor if a dry spell hits (or if you have absolutely positively no customers, as was their case).



This is a key point. Right now, things are probably as good as they are going to be for a while, especially for Avid. Post-production and media composing are doing well simply because of the sheer volume of stuff being made to service a sudden expansion in streaming channels and games/VR-type entertainment. This is not going to last. Sooner or later, Amazon and Netflix are going to stop thinking "land grab" but "where do we start cutting and rely on our back catalogue?"

A subscription that demands you keep paying is very uncomfortable, especially if you can't get work to support it or the amount you do gets pulled disproportionately into servicing it. And businesses stop thinking about the short-term tax advantages of service payments vs capex.

Plus, Avid has demonstrated that the pricing trend is going one way: up. They've done it once and when the exec bonus calculations are made and come up short, they'll do it again.(Until they have a change of management again that decides what they really need to do is capture hobbyists).


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## Fredeke (Jun 27, 2019)

JohnG said:


> so...it's a Reaper thread now?


Yeah... That seems to be this forum's curse.
Maybe Mike should set up a Reaperward Derailment Zone, along the Drama Zone 



JohnG said:


> If you've "never seen or used Pro Tools," I don't think that's the ideal position from which to comment, even though I sort of agree with you.
> 
> It's a cost/value proposition that absolutely does not work for everyone. That said, the first round of PT stuff was over $10k, over 10 years ago, so it's much more affordable than that now.
> 
> ...except for the subscription.



I've used ProTools and loved it. But in my modest business, it's not sustainable.

And sure, they've made some less expensive versions, as a response to the competition - with limitations the competition doesn't have.
But the equivalent of what cost $10k 10 years ago is not cheaper today, is it?


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## robgb (Jun 27, 2019)

Daryl said:


> So how are you going to open the Pro Tools session in Reaper to load Pro Tools' Playlists into Reaper?


AA Translator.


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## JohnG (Jun 27, 2019)

Hi Rob -- I think you've solved quite a few problems that people have raised in this thread. I wonder if you have the interest in starting a new thread about how to get things done -- low/zero latency etc. -- without too much fancy kit?

A lot of composers can make a decent living using midi and supplementing by recording soloist(s) in their homes / apartments. Maybe they don't want or can't afford the overhead of Pro Tools and all that, and your advice could be useful?

For me PT is mostly for collaboration, since a lot of my work in the last years has been overseas / geographically dispersed. But that's not necessarily routine, so your approach might really help people.

Either way thanks for persisting with your comments. I think you have made many good points.

Kind regards,

John


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## JohnG (Jun 27, 2019)

Fredeke said:


> But the equivalent of what cost $10k 10 years ago is not cheaper today, is it?



Yes, far cheaper. My setup was cheaper even though I had to replace my Mac as well and buy Thunderbolt housing for external drives. The main savings is that you can use the $1,000 box (HD Native Thunderbolt) instead of buying an expensive rack of PT interfaces and HD or HDX cards.

Don't quote me on this because (since I already had PT interfaces so I didn't focus on it) it's possible the latency is not as good with 3d party interfaces going into the HD Native Thunderbolt box, or there are additional limitations. But for me the setup was much less expensive to get much better functionality.

I needed just about exactly what the HD Native solution provides, which is 64 (mono) simultaneous inputs (if I remember correctly) but high / (for my purposes practically unlimited) playback track count. That's sufficient to record in one pass spits for pre-production for an orchestral / hybrid piece.

Kind regards,

John


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## Daryl (Jun 27, 2019)

robgb said:


> AA Translator.


Yes, that's what I've done in the past, but there is too much missing to use it for a big project.


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## Guy Rowland (Jun 27, 2019)

Avid have finally spoken and the good news is that reinstatements remain for both Ultimate and Vanilla, currently at the same prices. That means for Vanilla, its actually less of a penalty now to wait a year than it was.

http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=405253

[post edited as I originally stupidly said Ultimate in the last sentence, which hasn't changed.]


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 27, 2019)

I hate to say it, but $24 per month is not too bad for the regular version. I have been just using the "as needed" subscription when I'm required to use it. Even for $30 that's pretty decent.


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## AllanH (Jun 28, 2019)

Michael Antrum said:


> You want the upcoming next generation to be learning and using your tools - so when they graduate to professional status, they take your tools with them. That’s why companies such as Autodesk have really serious discount student packages available to them for things like Maya & 3D Studio Max.
> ...


AutoDesk has it figured out. At least high school students get every Autodesk product for free personal use at home. It's also free to the schools. 1000s of HS students leave school knowing Maya, 3D studio, Autocad, Inventor ...

EDIT: I meant to also add, that I wish Avid understood that getting your technology in front of students is critical, or at least very important, to the long-term strength of the business. I still have to see a single PT installation in K-12, even though I'm sure it exists somewhere. With today's focus on career technical education, Avid is leaving a lot of money on the table.


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## X-Bassist (Jun 29, 2019)

AllanH said:


> AutoDesk has it figured out. At least high school students get every Autodesk product for free personal use at home. It's also free to the schools. 1000s of HS students leave school knowing Maya, 3D studio, Autocad, Inventor ...
> 
> EDIT: I meant to also add, that I wish Avid understood that getting your technology in front of students is critical, or at least very important, to the long-term strength of the business. I still have to see a single PT installation in K-12, even though I'm sure it exists somewhere. With today's focus on career technical education, Avid is leaving a lot of money on the table.



Avid have never been smart with the future or long time customers. Personally I’m stocking up on my support plan since there is no limit as long as you purchase before July 1st. $99/year for 5 years is now looking good. Though I’m not happy about paying it now, at least it covers me until 2025. Perhaps by then they will lose a huge market share, get bought out (at least digidesign) by a better company who will realize the biggest market nowadays is home studios and businesses that can’t afford $400 or even $200 a year.

Honestly, 128 voices (mono or stereo) unlimited midi tracks and track folders is all I really need (and am still paying in the hopes they will add the latter 2). I think these changes just reflect the slow downfall Avid as a video editor, even many long time users have switched to something else by now (even here in Los Angeles) and Pro Tools is their last cash cow still being used widely.

Hopefully Netflix will buy Digidesign before Avid goes down.


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## Fredeke (Jun 29, 2019)

X-Bassist said:


> Hopefully Netflix will buy Digidesign before Avid goes down.


or Disney will


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## robgb (Jun 29, 2019)

Wolfie2112 said:


> I hate to say it, but $24 per month is not too bad for the regular version.


That's over $500 after two years of steady usage. Sounds pretty bad to me.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 30, 2019)

robgb said:


> That's over $500 after two years of steady usage. Sounds pretty bad to me.



Yes, if you look at it like that. But if you’re using it for paid work, that’s like three frappacinos at Starbucks every month. It’s all relative.


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## Fredeke (Jun 30, 2019)

Yeah, it all comes down too which schoolyard you're playing in. The big guys, or the kindergarden. (Me, I'm the kindergarden type.)

But as some have mentioned, it's pretty shortsighted because more and more youngsters will have no ProTools experience - which in itself means nothing, but they'll have great experience with cheaper software - so Avid has better pray other software never matches their performances !

Then again... it's the same story in every field: I do a bit of photography too, and it's true that as you go up in prices, the price difference increases more and more, for improvements that get more and more tiny. But if you absolutely need the tiny improvement, and you need it right now (as you sometimes do), then you've got no choice.

Avid decided to differenciate themselves from the masses. Let's hope for them they can deliver.


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## ironbut (Jun 30, 2019)

I hope for the best for the Pro Tools guys. 
Avid,.. not so much.

Anywho, no matter what side of the debate you're on. tonight's the last night for renewing your perpetual licenses at the old price.
Personally, I ponied up my hundred bucks so (hopefully) I'll get a 64 bit version of PT for the day that I decide I have to upgrade to osx Catalina.


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## Fredeke (Jun 30, 2019)

ironbut said:


> I hope for the best for the Pro Tools guys.


The guys will be all right, whichever tool they use.

I threw my copy of ProTools into the trash personally (sometimes I make impulsive choices!)
I was fed up with the anti-piracy hinderances. A legitimate customer shouldn't have to put up with them.


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## X-Bassist (Jun 30, 2019)

ironbut said:


> I hope for the best for the Pro Tools guys.
> Avid,.. not so much.
> 
> Anywho, no matter what side of the debate you're on. tonight's the last night for renewing your perpetual licenses at the old price.
> Personally, I ponied up my hundred bucks so (hopefully) I'll get a 64 bit version of PT for the day that I decide I have to upgrade to osx Catalina.



True. Keep in mind you CAN buy several years worth at $99/ year and your Protools account will advance the expiration date. You just have to purchase before the end of today (they can be applied to your account anytime). If you buy from avid they will automatically be applied, but from JRR shop or Sweetwater they can be applied later. Hopefully by 2025 something more reasonable will be worked out, but until then I got updates for about $8/month... while maintaining my perpetual licences if I decide to keep it for years after that. Seems to be the most reasonable option for staying on the platform.


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## Geoff Grace (Jun 30, 2019)

For those who are just starting out, it's not much; but there is the free Pro Tools | First.

Best,

Geoff


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 30, 2019)

Complaining about upgrading Pro Tools is nothing new - in the '90s it was hardware upgrades every time Apple changed computer slots - but the argument was always that your existing system would continue to work, nobody was forcing you.

I've had a longstanding rule not to put any time-bombed software on my machines, and subscription software is a deeper level of that.


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## dzilizzi (Jun 30, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Complaining about upgrading Pro Tools is nothing new - in the '90s it was hardware upgrades every time Apple changed computer slots - but the argument was always that your existing system would continue to work, nobody was forcing you.
> 
> I've had a longstanding rule not to put any time-bombed software on my machines, and subscription software is a deeper level of that.


As long as your OS doesn't automatically update and kill your compatibility.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 30, 2019)

dzilizzi said:


> As long as your OS doesn't automatically update and kill your compatibility.



Can you turn that off with Windows 10?

I use Pro Tools on a Mac, and Windows 7 doesn't auto-update.

The next macOS will kill 32-bit programs, so I'm not going to do it. My current machine is frozen, in fact I'm probably going to put in an older OS on a separate SSD as well (120GB SSDs are now $20).


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## dzilizzi (Jun 30, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Can you turn that off with Windows 10?
> 
> I use Pro Tools on a Mac, and Windows 7 doesn't auto-update.
> 
> The next macOS will kill 32-bit programs, so I'm not going to do it. My current machine is frozen, in fact I'm probably going to put in an older OS on a separate SSD as well (120GB SSDs are now $20).


So I keep telling my personal computer not to update, but it keeps changing the settings on me. So far, it hasn't been an issue because my music computer was on Win 7 but I am updating and testing it out. If it turns out to be a problem, I may go back to 7 and just be offline unless necessary. 

I will have to make sure I back up more often too. My OS drive only has programs on it, so hopefully it won't mess everything else up.


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## Fredeke (Jun 30, 2019)

My computer never saw the net and never will. That's how you disable automatic updates


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## dzilizzi (Jun 30, 2019)

Fredeke said:


> My computer never saw the net and never will. That's how you disable automatic updates


NI has made it impossible not to get online. if I didn't love my Kontakt libraries so much, I wouldn't use it. I actually love my iLok just because it makes it so I don't have to go online for most of my programs. Everything can be done on a different computer. Though even with the ilok, ProTools wants to phone home every once in a while.


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## Daryl (Jul 1, 2019)

Fredeke said:


> My computer never saw the net and never will. That's how you disable automatic updates


That's how I used to do it, but eventually I just had to join the 21st Century. I do have two "museum" Mac Minis though, to run Keymap Pro.


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## Morning Coffee (Jul 1, 2019)

I still have Pro tools 8 LE as an emergency backup. It was hassle free to install. The idea was that you would install the software which you got on a cd, then you'd enter the identification number that came with the software CD. It's an easy and fantastic system! No need for the internet, unless you need updates I guess.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 1, 2019)

Fredeke said:


> My computer never saw the net and never will. That's how you disable automatic updates



That was the conventional wisdom in 1994. You also wanted to turn off the menu bar clock, because it ate into your horsepower. Zip drives were great back then, because of all the storage. Bummer that Syquest went out of business.



I just did a quick search:

https://www.thewindowsclub.com/turn-off-windows-update-in-windows-10


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