# Film-maker decisions ruined my score!



## badabing (Aug 7, 2019)

Posting this anonymously as I don't want to badmouth in public, but needed a place to vent as well as hear the experiences of others and work out what I might be able to do differently in future. I'm fairly new to composing for screen and recently got hired to do a film which I was very happy about, worked enthusiastically on what I was told were the final edits, creating all the right moments of tension and release, space, punctuation, drama and emotion, keeping in touch with producers who seemed very happy with what I was doing. 

Then when the post-production was happening the sound people told me my cues didn't line up, so I asked them to send me their edit which was of course different to mine! So I set about redoing and retiming everything where I could, had to do a few fudges but basically got it back in shape. Producers were understanding about my frustration and to their credit paid me a bit more. 

Then the project comes out and the edit is all different again, different takes of scenes have been substituted and the cues are totally off , with many of the moments I'd worked to create basically ruined. Plus they've made really odd decisions like putting ambient sound recordings (or actually I think it's just the ambient noise the cameras captured, as they change with each shot in a way that sounds really amateurish) over what should have been music-only sequences, and not starting cues with a scene but then letting it run on too long into the next scene. 

Just sort of a mess and a slightly crushing experience, as although I was being paid which was amazing I put other things aside to work on this and was hoping it would be a calling card for more work in future. Now I'm not really happy to show it to people, because if I was watching it I'd think the composer didn't know what they were doing. The people making this project are really nice but quite green themselves, and now I also have a dilemma about whether to tell them that I'm not happy... in one way I think it's important that they know for future reference but another part of me doesn't want the drama. 

Is my experience a common one among composers here? I mean I get from a film-makers POV you might just be wanting to tinker with the edits until late in the process but how the hell am I supposed to score something that isn't basically finished? Not sure how unrealistic this expectation is but it seems pretty fundamental to know what you're composing for! Anyway, would be interested to compare notes with others on this stuff.


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## robgb (Aug 7, 2019)

I don't do music for movies and have no real desire to, but after working in the movie business as a screenwriter for many years, I can tell you that change is the nature of the business, and the guys in the trenches are usually an afterthought. This is especially true for screenwriters, but I would imagine it's at least partly true for some composers. And it's my understanding that a locked picture is a rarity these days.

There are, of course, always exceptions. Or maybe what happened to you is an exception—I hope so. But, really, the only thing you can do is carry on. Hopefully the next project will be more professional/pleasant.


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## MikeH (Aug 7, 2019)

Completely normal. Ideal? No. But it’s the nature of the business. It’s a work for hire, and once you hand it over to them they can use it however they wish (or not at all).

If you’re in this for the long haul you have to figure out a way to believe in what you’re doing and be artistically satisfied, yet also be willing to hand it over and let it go once it’s out of your hands. Do the best you can with the current project/bosses and move on to the next. Rinse and repeat!

Goldsmith, Williams, Horner, Herrmann, Barry...it’s happened to the best.


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## chillbot (Aug 7, 2019)

Who are you really! It occurs to me that making a new account is a good way to bypass me having blocked you. Not saying I blocked you. But it's possible.


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## chrisr (Aug 7, 2019)

Everyone has similar tales, although in your case the production seems to have been particularly inept!

My worst experience was a hard cut near the end of the film - which I hit with gusto - slightly against my better judgement, but on balance I think it worked, so I went with the 'big statement'. Now, bear in mind I attended the dubbing mix for this movie - and left happy. But sat in the cinema with my family, the cut had been changed from a hard cut to a fairly soft cross-fade (in the online/grade - after the dub) - and that cue seemed completely inappropriate and amateurish as a result.

Back when I was a sound engineer I once mixed a TV/cinema spot that had music composed by Morricone. I can tell you that what was sent to me for that mix was just perfect as delivered (which you might expect) - should have been the easiest job ever - but after 2 hours with the director it had been pretty well butchered I'm afraid. I hated the experience but obviously the (clearly tone deaf) director thought he knew best. It goes to show - it really does happen to the best of them!


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## Beluga (Aug 7, 2019)

IME it is best to not get too attached emotionally to your work on commission, every time I really was into a piece of music I was creating it turned out to be a bad experience somehow. It is best to take your distances and just deliver what is needed/desired. And it helps to have a creative side activity (project) where you can put your own ideas and write music just for your enjoyment.


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## Desire Inspires (Aug 7, 2019)

You got paid, so leave the issue alone. On to the next one!


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## robgb (Aug 7, 2019)

Beluga said:


> IME it is best to not get too attached emotionally to your work on commission,


While I understand your point, I don't get the impression that he's too attached emotionally. He (or she) simply wants the work to actually WORK with the picture, and at this point it doesn't, and makes him/her look inept as a film composer. Not an impression you want to make when looking for more jobs.


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## Desire Inspires (Aug 7, 2019)

robgb said:


> While I understand your point, I don't get the impression that he's too attached emotionally. He (or she) simply wants the work to actually WORK with the picture, and at this point it doesn't, and makes him/her look inept as a film composer. Not an impression you want to make when looking for more jobs.



We need to see the film to see if the OP is posting a true story.

@badabing Where can we see this movie?


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## Tice (Aug 7, 2019)

If the director doesn't have an ear for this stuff and makes decisions without relying on your ear concerning your field of expertise, there's not much that can be done about it if you only find out after release. Movies, like most creative efforts, are a collective effort where everyone makes the work of everyone else look good, idealy. If you can choose what to say yes to, choose directors who understand this. If you can't choose your projects, you're subject to the powers of chance. It can help to try and be really involved with the director's vision by asking to observe it more closely. This can help you spot things from your own field that they might miss out on. But you can't comment on a music problem during the editing process if you're not there to see it.


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## Jdiggity1 (Aug 7, 2019)

Definitely a common story.
One of my personal highlights was after a film was "finished" (score included), the director decided to shuffle around the scenes so they were no longer in chronological order.
Feels like all that careful thought and planning you put into your work was for nothing. Very deflating.

But... it'll make it easier to accept the next time it happens (which it will).

Just think of rejected cues/scores as a bit of muscle flexing. If nothing else, it helps keeps you musically 'in shape'.


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## NoamL (Aug 7, 2019)

Definitely something wrong here. You are the composer, you *are* a postproduction department lead, working under the supervision of the director & producers. Ask yourself why you weren't kept in the loop on picture updates including automatically being sent a copy of each fresh reel. Conforming the music to pic changes is part of your job (or your hardworking assistant's job  ) it is not something you should "find out about." Sounds like a combination of novice composer & even more novice director.

As for picture lock it pretty much doesn't exist anymore. Keeping up with the picture is part of your job.  but like I said above the problem is not that the picture changed, it's that the director either is so uninterested in your music that he didn't keep you in the loop, or he didn't know he needed to, or something like that...


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## robgb (Aug 7, 2019)

Desire Inspires said:


> We need to see the film to see if the OP is posting a true story.
> 
> @badabing Where can we see this movie?


Clearly he or she prefers to remain anonymous, so I doubt we'll be seeing the movie.


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## robgb (Aug 7, 2019)

Tice said:


> If the director doesn't have an ear for this stuff and makes decisions without relying on your ear concerning your field of expertise, there's not much that can be done about it if you only find out after release. Movies, like most creative efforts, are a collective effort where everyone makes the work of everyone else look good, idealy.


Personally, I can't imagine directing a picture without paying close attention to the music and making sure its right. The great directors may not know how to create music, but they certainly know how to use it, and collaborate with their composers toward that end. Spielberg comes to mind. Hitchcock. It seems pointless to even BE a film director if you don't understand the fundamental importance of film and music and how they have to work together organically to create the whole.


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## JohnG (Aug 7, 2019)

It's less common outside the US, but common enough in USA, though yours seems to be an unusually egregious example.

Sorry man.

You might be interested, maybe comforted, to read / listen to James Horner's rant about Terrence Malick and Horner's score to The New World. I mean maybe it's schadenfreude and therefore wicked but it is quite something.


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## Jeremy Gillam (Aug 7, 2019)

I think this is the interview John mentions:


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## Desire Inspires (Aug 7, 2019)

robgb said:


> Clearly he or she prefers to remain anonymous, so I doubt we'll be seeing the movie.



Like I said, I want to see the movie.

@badabing, let us see the movie.


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## JohnG (Aug 7, 2019)

That is the one. It starts somewhere around 20 minutes.


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## CT (Aug 7, 2019)

JohnG said:


> You might be interested, maybe comforted, to read / listen to James Horner's rant about Terrance Malick and Horner's score to The New World. I mean maybe it's schadenfreude and therefore wicked but it is quite something.



I loved Horner, but never understood how he could be so genuinely peeved and surprised about all that. Had he never seen one of Malick's movies before?

This sounds like a very interesting interview though.


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## Jeremy Gillam (Aug 7, 2019)

JohnG said:


> That is the one. It starts somewhere around 20 minutes.


I'm glad you mentioned this interview, I hadn't heard it before and am glad I was able to dig it up. James' blunt and refreshing honesty and constant insistence that music and film should come from the heart are inspiring. He left a tangible hole when he departed too soon.


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## stonzthro (Aug 7, 2019)

I've had that happen more than not. Editing to the last second and then some is very, very common. I think it is best to just make sure your director is happy with the music - if it works for her/him, that really is the business goal for you. I would guess that if you seemed upset at the music not lining up the first time, they would probably not call you and tell you about the last, last minute edits. 

Bridge may be on fire - probably good to check in and let them know you are grateful for the experience (or something along those lines). 

Unless you just never want to see them ever again. 

Film making is hard.


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## Stanoli (Aug 8, 2019)

Here is what Hans Zimmer has to say:

I was thinking that the way I've been working recently, where I write things ahead of them shooting, is actually the better way of going. Film making technology has changed so much in recent years, especially with computer graphics, that they can now push it right up to the last moment. The old way of writing a score where you wait for a locked picture, a defined cut, and spend those last six to 12 weeks, or whatever, writing and doing the movie, then going on to a scoring stage, I just don't think that method applies anymore. So it makes sense to try and get some of the work done ahead of those 12 weeks, just so you and they have something to work from when you do need to sit down and think about the score with the picture. You'll probably have more influence over the picture's style and it solves some of those pesky temp score problems.





__





Hans Zimmer - Part 2 - Interview


In the first part of our interview with Hans Zimmer we discussed Pirates of the Caribbean and Hans' approach to writing a suite of themes for each of his movies. Now, in the second part of our exclusive three-part interview, Hans tells how he got involved in one of the year's other...




www.soundtrack.net


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## MauroPantin (Aug 8, 2019)

Sorry to hear you had trouble. Unfortunately, it's the director and producer's baby and for what I hear this happens a ton.

Incidentally, that was not the first time James Horner had trouble with the director refusing to commit to a locked picture. Have a look at this snippet of an interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzati0Am5GE (James Horner on scoring &quot;Aliens&quot;)


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## averystemmler (Aug 8, 2019)

stonzthro said:


> Film making is hard.



I think this is the thing to remember. It's frustrating when your hard work is compromised, but that happens because there are a lot of moving parts. At the end of the day, it's the film's music, and the film will do with it what it pleases.

I once had several episodes of a show I worked on air with the music as a phasey disaster. Somehow in the editing workflow, my music was being baked into the picture and then added again, a few milliseconds offset.

Making stuff is hard.


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## MikeH (Aug 8, 2019)

Some good advice from Jerry at 6:19


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## Greg (Aug 8, 2019)

If you got paid, you're winning. Getting $$ is the hardest part about working on indie films.


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## Tice (Aug 8, 2019)

Greg said:


> If you got paid, you're winning. Getting $$ is the hardest part about working on indie films.


I don't know about that, I mean any work of mine that's bad is still going to be out there forever, looking bad to any future employers. And even without that, my own ears would hate me forever and a day.


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## robgb (Aug 8, 2019)

Stanoli said:


> I was thinking that the way I've been working recently, where I write things ahead of them shooting, is actually the better way of going. Film making technology has changed so much in recent years, especially with computer graphics, that they can now push it right up to the last moment. The old way of writing a score where you wait for a locked picture, a defined cut, and spend those last six to 12 weeks, or whatever, writing and doing the movie, then going on to a scoring stage, I just don't think that method applies anymore.


Technically, of course, he's right. But I can't imagine that scoring to script is even close to being as effective as scoring to finished picture.


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## robgb (Aug 8, 2019)

MikeH said:


> Some good advice from Jerry at 6:19


Especially when he talks about over-scoring a picture. Something that's so prevalent today.


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## VinRice (Aug 8, 2019)

averystemmler said:


> I think this is the thing to remember. It's frustrating when your hard work is compromised, but that happens because there are a lot of moving parts. At the end of the day, it's the film's music, and the film will do with it what it pleases.
> 
> I once had several episodes of a show I worked on air with the music as a phasey disaster. Somehow in the editing workflow, my music was being baked into the picture and then added again, a few milliseconds offset.
> 
> Making stuff is hard.



In the UK there was a screw-up for about six Formula 1 races where Brian Tyler's theme music was being being broadcast twice simultaneously with a slight phase offset. Absolutely horrendous.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Aug 8, 2019)

badabing said:


> Posting this anonymously as I don't want to badmouth in public, but needed a place to vent as well as hear the experiences of others and work out what I might be able to do differently in future. I'm fairly new to composing for screen and recently got hired to do a film which I was very happy about, worked enthusiastically on what I was told were the final edits, creating all the right moments of tension and release, space, punctuation, drama and emotion, keeping in touch with producers who seemed very happy with what I was doing.
> 
> Then when the post-production was happening the sound people told me my cues didn't line up, so I asked them to send me their edit which was of course different to mine! So I set about redoing and retiming everything where I could, had to do a few fudges but basically got it back in shape. Producers were understanding about my frustration and to their credit paid me a bit more.
> 
> ...




Oh yeah...get used to this! After having worked on over 50 feature films in various capacities, I can tell you that these sort of things happen quite often. Well, in this case it is a post-production nightmare, with two different copies being used. In any case, the edit got changed in the end. This happens all the time. 

And nothing anyone, including me says here will make you OK with it, except experience. With time, some things will get better, some won't. You will know how to deal with it all or when to throw a fit!

There is an overwhelming sense here and on some Facebook groups where musicians seem to be always afraid of getting fired or being non-confrontational about some things. If something bothers you, tell them upfront. If they are not listening - shout! 

Of course, with the aim being to find the best solution possible.


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## Stanoli (Aug 8, 2019)

robgb said:


> Technically, of course, he's right. But I can't imagine that scoring to script is even close to being as effective as scoring to finished picture.



It can be even more effective if the director starts to cut his scenes to the music.
In fact filmdirectors do that all the time with mock-ups.
So why not use the final music instead from the beginning.
And composing is much more satisfying this way.


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## Dietz (Aug 8, 2019)

Tanuj Tiku said:


> If something bothers you, tell them upfront. If they are not listening - shout!


This seems to be a cultural thing, too. In the US, "the customer is always right", so it seems as you are expected to bend backwards there, just to please them. That's not so common in other places, though.


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## Desire Inspires (Aug 8, 2019)

You guys are way too emotional about your “work”. 

Everyone makes a bad movie, song, soundtrack, score, etc. here and there. An Oscar winner can make a box office dud. So just do the work, then do some more, then do more work. 

Nobody is going to stop working with you unless you are a terrible person to be around. One bad work doesn’t destroy your career. You just have to work to do better the next time.


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## Billy Palmer (Aug 8, 2019)

I'm familiar with this situation in the games industry. It doesn't only happen to composers, I've spoken to freelance artists and modellers who've had their work mangled/implemented in the most bizarre ways by the developer. 

It's just the nature of work for hire. 
Do your best. Communicate. Try to make the developer/director respect and value you, so that they will always consult you over the final build/cut. 
For whatever reason, this won't always happen. Move on, and make sure you can present the best possible version of your work on your website/showreel.

I'm kind of relieved to hear this happens in the film industry too lol.


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## dgburns (Aug 8, 2019)

Even when it all goes according to plan, something somewhere might get glitched and ruin your intent. Case in point, a film I worked on that got into Tribeca Film Fest in NY. Happy as a boy scout, I get on a plane and join the film crew, some come as far away as Europe. So what happened? The craziest playback issue I ever heard, the soundtrack sounded like it was being flushed down a big toilet, a big juicy swirling tremolo/vibrato that I think you just needed to hear in person to really comprehend. Strange thing is, the dialog was fine- somehow escaping the carnage.
I shrank in my chair and looked at the ceiling until the thing was over, counting the seconds to bolt out and grab some alcohol somewhere. After the film, the director comes over and I can feel the tension. 

‘did you hear that weird sound thing?’ he asks, 
‘sure did’ I replied with poker face

He continues ‘wow, wonder why we didn’t come up with that in post, it was weird, but it worked for me too, very psychedelic! Groovy dude, good work, well gotta go, see you later’ and with that he trots off to talk to media.

Turns out it was a bad film dub and the playback was pooched, but the masters are fine.

My beautiful choirs, my epic grand perc, my carefully written orchestra, my glorious APPROVED score, all flushed down the toilet. But strange as it all was, the director had a point, and I chuckled and well, he dialed me up a few months later to attach me on another project. Glad I kept my mouth shut, and my sense of humour with tongue firmly planted in cheek.

Just goes to show. (been working on a big motif surround toilet flushing sound ever since then)

this is a true story.


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## GtrString (Aug 8, 2019)

In the end, their as* is on the line too, when the whole world are watching, and they will bang their heads against the wall, realizing the bad desicions. Seems like you were working in “silos”, where one team didnt know what the other one was doing, and there should have been more organizing communication between you during the edit process (in this case more is more). Communication is an organizing tool, and in this case advanced skills were needed. Like meta-communication about not only the task at hand, but also talk about how you talk (and not talk) about the task at hand, and what changes in the way you were talking about the tasks that could strenghten the process and in the end, the final product.

I once had a boss giving me the heats for not telling him the important risks before a meeting, leaving him to look bad in the spotlight. If something is wrong, you HAVE to say it, otherwise it is basically a betrayal. Even though it can be hard to break it, people get mad and teary, they will be happier in the end knowing they at least had the chance to do things right.

There is also acknowledgement in the belief that they can handle a tough call. You have to give that respect to collaborators to be able to make great things, even if it is not returned, imho. If they then chose otherwise anyway, you will at least be given the credit for trying when the project crashes.


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## lokotus (Aug 9, 2019)

You are working for the vision of the producer / Director etc. Even if your own artistic input is important, the final result vision "does not" belong to you.
Whenever theres is a "synthesis of the arts" (google Wagners Gesamtkunstwerk) there will always be shortcomings with on particular art form (in this case your music).
If the producers / Directors are happy with the end result you should be happy to and go on with the next project by working with them again or choosing another one to work with.

If you don't like this situation too often balance it out by doing our own projects where the final artistic decision belongs to you individually (writing own album / music, producing and directing your own movie and writing the music for it...)
If you want to stay in film music you can also balance it out by trying to find somebody who has a "genius" understanding of the "synthesis of the arts" and this results in a vision / final result everybody will be happy with concerning his/her own input or work. Cheers, lokotus


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Aug 9, 2019)

Nobody wants to say it, but quite frankly it also seems to me that a lot of producers, directors etc. are dumbasses. I had my run-ins with dumbasses. Yeah it's their baby and all, but they were dumbasses.


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## Leon Willett (Aug 9, 2019)

One time a director took the brass completely out of an action cue (a fantasy sword fight!), leaving only random woodwind and string twiddles with huge gaps. I was mortified LOL :D


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## Tice (Aug 9, 2019)

On the flip-side, it also happens that they come up with ideas that make your work better.


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## Drundfunk (Aug 9, 2019)

badabing said:


> Posting this anonymously as I don't want to badmouth in public, but needed a place to vent (...)


For some reason I thought "What if this guy is actually Hans Zimmer?!" and the sillyness of that thought made me laugh for 5 minutes straight.

I have one story like that. It was a project where I got on last-minute and it became very clear soon that the director was an absolute amateur, especially with regard to audio in general. Constantly made me change things for the worse, because he simply knew better, until a point where I said "F*ck it! Can't have my name attached to this" (It was just bloody awful). I finished it and the director was happy with it. I made them delete my name from the credits and told them to never call me again. Usually I'm very lucky tho. Most of the time I doesn't feel like I'm working for someone but with someone on a vision. Makes the process a lot easier, with a lot of respect towards the work of the other person. With that also comes a lot of trust and healthy discussions about stuff, and most of the time I'm probably more involved in the project as a whole, than I should be. But it's fun and I like it that way.


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## AlexRuger (Aug 11, 2019)

I’ve dealt with much worse on projects where people REALLY ought to have known better. Unfortunately this thing is par for the course, and yes, it’s utterly maddening. 

I’m gonna go ahead and disagree with the people who suggest that you don’t become too emotionally attached. I tried that for years, I read the War of Art and internalized it, I told myself that “I’m a professional making a product,” as if that means I shouldn’t have strong opinions about my work. All that happened was I lost emotional connection my music entirely, and guess what? That results in shitty music. 

Sure, don’t remain attached to a cut and always conform to the best of your abilities. Make the new cut work and don’t be afraid to throw out something from the old cut that just won’t work with the new. Don’t be attached to the old at the expense of the new, I suppose I should say. It’s the job and there’s no way around that. 

But absolutely remain emotionally attached to your music. It’s music! How can you not? Remaining “emotionally attached” is just another way of saying “you give a shit about making good music,” and if one of the filmmakers is tearing the score to threads, you have every reason to (kindly but firmly) put your foot down. Explain to them that they’re destroying the music and thus the film, perhaps even more so. Propose a fix. 

Yes, they’re often dumbasses. There’s idiots everywhere in every position at every level, in every industry, in every country. There’s also a lot of really talented people who just don’t have an ear for music and will think what they’re doing is just fine, when to someone with even a modicum of musical common sense will hear that, no, a hard cut on a reverb tail or an unprovoked modulation or etc etc etc sounds terrible in 99.9% of cases. 

Endure the necessary evils, be proud of your work and make it as good as possible, and don’t be a dick (unless it’s one of those exceedingly rare moments where you know it’ll help get the point across, and yes those do exist). That’s the best you can do as a composer. 

Oh, and always make the soundtrack exactly what you want it to be. With indie films, it’s what most people will hear anyway.


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## badabing (Aug 13, 2019)

Thanks everyone for the replies, really interesting perspectives here and my experience certainly doesn't seem to be unique. There's too much to respond to individually but just to come back on some things which stuck with me as I was reading through: 

I definitely don't think I'd want to be creating music that I wasn't emotionally engaged with, at least at the early stages, although I recognise that at a certain point I have to let go and that the film-makers are going to do what they think is right. For me I discovered that during the writing stage I have to be emotionally engaged with the characters and the story in order to 'feel' my way around the music, that's my guide. Obviously I'm not still feeling like that when I'm on my 600th version of the mix! But emotion is effectively my initial map as I sketch out the score.

Part of my frustration in this case was really that I think their decisions have weakened the overall work, not just my part in it, they really threw away some of the opportunities they had in the edit, and as a result the critical/audience response hasn't been great which is a shame for everyone who was involved in making it. I suppose having dabbled in film-making myself I'm probably frustrated that I didn't have more control over the end product! 

Another composer I was speaking to recently who's just scored a film was saying that they had a showing of the final edit to the creative team where they were all able to feed back on the final product, which I think would have been a great idea here, alas I think the film-makers being quite new to the process haven't got that stuff nailed down. Maybe there was also a lack of confidence in making last minute changes and being nervous to ask for feedback in case it was negative, but I think it could have saved the film really.

All that said I do have huge admiration for anyone who can get a film or series finished though, it's a daunting task and when all the moving parts are taken into consideration I'm not sure I could do any better. The film-makers in this case are really good people and I'm still incredibly grateful for the opportunity they gave me. The final result was a disappointment but I'm kind of over it now, it's a shame that it won't be the worldwide smash hit that would have put us all on the map but I've dusted myself off and am ready for the next challenge!


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## Jeremy Spencer (Aug 13, 2019)

badabing said:


> I definitely don't think I'd want to be creating music that I wasn't emotionally engaged with, at least at the early stages, although I recognise that at a certain point I have to let go and that the film-makers are going to do what they think is right.



You need to just write what the director/producer wants, and leave any type of emotional attachment at the door.....right from the get-go. Remember, it's about their vision, not yours (unfortunately). At the end of the day, we are just work-for-hire, and are a fart in the wind in the big scheme of things. Just enjoy the craft itself. One thing learned early on is that you need a really thick skin if you want to succeed as a composer for film, tv, etc. This a reason I prefer composing for live theatre; to me it's much more organic and there's a lot more breathing room when it comes to creative input.


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## X-Bassist (Aug 13, 2019)

If the OP is still reading this, I want to offer him a different point of view.

Personally, when I take a job it’s less about the money involved, more about the deadline. The reason is I ask them to lock the cut before I work on it. Yes, live in LA and yes, this is unusual, but I have yet to have someone turn me down. Now if this is a huge film with a tight deadline this might not be possible, but recuts should be less as well (ok, sometimes they still recut). I let them know they should keep cutting until they are happy, then lock the cut, but I would need it by (calculated date) to make the deadline (if there is one). If they don’t know the deadline ask them about what festivals or premieres they may want to submit to, them find out those submission deadlines. In most cases you can get a date or timeframe that is a cutoff.

The key is to talk about all this when your first approached. Find out the deadline and really watch the film (and take notes) so you know how much time it will take you. Then subtract the former from the latter. Let them know the amount of time and effort a locked cut will save. Whether SFX, Music, or Mix (I do all three) your efforts will always sound best on the first pass, and get worse as you recut. So it’s worth it to wait. Sometimes I porposely take a lower rate film just so I can say “There is no MONEY for recutting tracks, so it needs to be a locked edit”. AND, every time, I define what a locked cut is “A picture cut that does not get edited again and is locked down for the sound mix”. I have gotten clients that keep sending another locked cut, and another locked cut... no joke. Define what your talking about right at the beginning so there is no question.

Except for bigger films I’ve usually found they have the time, they just don’t realize how much it helps to lock the cut. Also I tell them NOT to watch the film while I work on it- so that they can be “fresh” for the mix “like the people going to see your film who are watching it for the first time”. They usually like the idea and agree they need to be fresh for the mix (which IS important) BUT also keeps them from making changes (if they don’t watch it, they usually don’t start doubting the edit, but the more they watch...).

Watching a film with bad/no sound over and over is one of the worst things a pic editor/producer/director can do. It causes doubt in the mind and makes them nervous, which all goes away when they hear good sound, which speeds up the film and makes it all come together. Encourage them to take a break after the pic is delivered and do something else, even work on another film or watch their favorites, it will get them more excited for the mix and keep them from doubting themselves. Then when you get them to the mix, and that first pass, is a wonderful experience for them... and for you.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Aug 13, 2019)

X-Bassist said:


> I have gotten clients that keep sending another locked cut, and another locked cut



I've done a ton of shorts, but only three feature-length films.....two of which had cuts/edits even AFTER the declaration of the final cut. It can be very frustrating, especially when the final product has cues that aren't even in sync with what was intended.


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## John Judd (Aug 14, 2019)

When I was first starting out, a co-writer of mine that had worked on a bunch of short films used to tell me: ‘make the idiot assumption’. He used to preach that you make the best piece of art you can, hand it off, and then somewhere in the process there just might be some person that makes an idiotic decision regarding your music. 

Sure enough, immediately after hearing this advice I worked on a fixed tempo track for a short. I was really thrilled with the outcome. The final cut of the film was amazing and I know the music was a perfect fit. The whole thing was top shelf and I was proud to be a part of it. Everyone was thrilled at how it had turned out. Fast forward a month: after all seemed complete, someone in the process decided that they wanted a slower vibe. They took my fixed tempo track of 132 and stretched it to almost 100. Oh the humanity. I was horrified. You could hear artifacts + warbling in the time stretching they had applied. The overall energy of the track was destroyed and I was totally crushed.

Trust me: make the idiot assumption.


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## StevenOBrien (Aug 19, 2019)

I had an incident while I was scoring a show once. The editor, producer, and I spent several days hashing out how the music for the first five minutes of the show would go, and after working through about ten sketches, we got to a point where we were all happy with the outline of the music, and I got the go ahead to do the final version. The deadline was very tight, so I stayed up until 2AM that night finishing everything up, delivered the mix, and went to bed, ready to move on to the other cues.

The next day, I got an email from the editor saying that the director had reviewed the cut with the music, and suddenly decided he wanted a drastically different direction to both the cut and the music. Less emotional, more comedic, which would involve completely rewriting (and recutting, which meant rewriting while it was being recut) the whole five minutes.

Very frustrated by this, instead of immediately starting work on the intro from scratch again, I decided to take a break from and spend some time working on a different part of the show (with the editor's blessing). It's a good thing I did, because a few hours later, I got another email from the editor saying that the director had come back into the room while he was recutting the intro (again), and started giving yet more contradictory instructions which were now more in line with how the intro was originally cut.

At one point, the director suggested "And we should probably cut back to a more emotional piano track here", at which point, the editor pulled up my original cue and said "why not this?", to which the director replied "Yeah, that'll work. That's great. Why didn't you want to use that?".


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## Symfoniq (Aug 19, 2019)

StevenOBrien said:


> At one point, the director suggested "And we should probably cut back to a more emotional piano track here", at which point, the editor pulled up my original cue and said "why not this?", to which the director replied "Yeah, that'll work. That's great. Why didn't you want to use that?".



I'm 99% sure I know this guy.


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## JEPA (Aug 19, 2019)

StevenOBrien said:


> I had an incident while I was scoring a show once. The editor, producer, and I spent several days hashing out how the music for the first five minutes of the show would go, and after working through about ten sketches, we got to a point where we were all happy with the outline of the music, and I got the go ahead to do the final version. The deadline was very tight, so I stayed up until 2AM that night finishing everything up, delivered the mix, and went to bed, ready to move on to the other cues.
> 
> The next day, I got an email from the editor saying that the director had reviewed the cut with the music, and suddenly decided he wanted a drastically different direction to both the cut and the music. Less emotional, more comedic, which would involve completely rewriting (and recutting, which meant rewriting while it was being recut) the whole five minutes.
> 
> ...


...when people think they know better than the composer...


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## JEPA (Aug 19, 2019)

I think the worse case in the history of film music was between Alex North and Kubrick in "2001 A space odyssey" where the whole score was rejected... what a pity


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## JEPA (Aug 19, 2019)

Another case one was the last Blade Runner and Johannson's score...


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## JEPA (Aug 19, 2019)

JEPA said:


> Another case one was the last Blade Runner and Johannson's score...


...and I am very furious about that...


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## AlexRuger (Aug 19, 2019)

What's the story with Johann and BR2049? I really loved Hans and Ben's work on that.


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## X-Bassist (Aug 19, 2019)

AlexRuger said:


> What's the story with Johann and BR2049? I really loved Hans and Ben's work on that.











‘Blade Runner 2049’ Soundtrack: Denis Villeneuve Finally Reveals Why Jóhann Jóhannsson Left the Project


The three previously collaborated on “Prisoners,” “Sicario,” and “Arrival.”




www.indiewire.com





Johann apartently tried something different and they didn't think it worked. So they wanted something closer to the original's Vangellis music. This is often the response of producers that don't know what to do when the music is not working for them (go back to the last thing that did work). Pretty typical. After seeing the film, it sounds like they got what they were looking for.

And this is the difference between a film composer and a music artist, the producers and directors always have the final say. Everyone in production and post are serving that vision, even if (like actors) they don't realize it.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Aug 20, 2019)

JEPA said:


> Another case one was the last Blade Runner and Johannson's score...



Or Danny Elfman's entire score for The Wolfman...


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## TimCox (Aug 20, 2019)

It happens. It happens a lot! In the best of situations they have a very talented music editor to make it all work, in your case, well...! At least they gave you a new cut, I worked on a film that has all manner of bizarre decisions including fading in an end credits pop song in a completely different and conflicting key over my wonderful "swell to end credits" moment. There's also messed up timing for several cues due to cuts but I was never given another cut to fix them! It's bad. It happens. Don't let it get to you, it's a creative whole and chances are they know they fumbled


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## Farkle (Aug 20, 2019)

NoamL said:


> As for picture lock it pretty much doesn't exist anymore....




Ehhh, you just gotta find the right director, Noam... They are out there... and it's a goddamn _paradise _working on those projects. 

Mike


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## Dave Connor (Aug 20, 2019)

Continuous picture edits are very common and the production team will often push things to the very end. What is unusual and highly unprofessional would be not notifying the composer of any (let alone last minute) changes. That serves no one and would normally result in heads rolling since the music is found to be out of sync on stage (the last place you would want that kind of major surprise.) Any composer would be furious about that but the director would go ballistic. Sound people would hardly figure in the discussion unless they were directly responsible.


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## AlexRuger (Aug 21, 2019)

Farkle said:


> Ehhh, you just gotta find the right director, Noam... They are out there... and it's a goddamn _paradise _working on those projects.
> 
> Mike


Yup, I'm lucky to have a few of those. Working with talented, competent directors who really care about music is heaven.


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