# Are we REALLY in the diminishing returns zone now?



## Lee Blaske (Jan 5, 2018)

I know I've said this before, but I wonder if we've really reached the point of diminishing returns when it comes to sample library development. Are there anymore major breakthrough libraries on the reasonably immediate horizon, or are we kind of in a holding zone where there will be incremental improvements/differences, and developers putting out products that in some way/shape/form imitate the products of others (e.g. low dynamic libraries, textural libraries, extended technique libraries, etc.)?

It just seems to me that a number of the products we had been awaiting from major developers that have recently been released are not the game changers some of us thought they might be.

I bought VSL Synchron Strings I during the early bird period. With all of the videos about the Synchron stage, the players, the technology involved, and the fact that VSL has been in this business for years, I thought it would be a MAJOR step forward. An earth shattering improvement over the rest of the field. Now that I've had my hands on it for awhile, I think it's a nice library, but in a lot of cases, I believe I already have a number of options that are better.

Same goes for Hollywood Choirs, which I'm on the fence about buying. It just doesn't sound that different to me than the original. I don't see it being capable of singing a jolly Christmas carol, or a serene, touching, lovely choral piece. It seems that it's still mainly for that serious choir sound in ponderous film and trailer music.

I'm looking forward to the Eric Whitacre library, but I fear that might be a disappointment, too (because I'm not sure Spitfire really wants to invest the time in making a word builder). Time will tell...

Maybe I'm missing some things, but it seems to me that we're not seeing truly amazing, jaw-dropping products anymore. For this past year, the one exception I can think of to that might be Superior Drummer 3. I do think that product really took a giant step forward. It is, however, a product that is so deep that I don't personally think I have the time to invest in it to really use it to full potential (and actually, the way I work doesn't really exploit a lot of the amazing things it can do).

There are products that come around that fill useful gaps, and are cool. I'd list Realitone's Screaming Trumpet as one of those. Not regretting that purchase.

And FWIW, some of the features that developers tout as major sell points just don't seem to be a big deal, at least to me. I don't need 23 mic positions and every surround sound format known to man. I'd rather just have a couple positions that sound REALLY GOOD. If somebody needs to put something in a a unique space, there are endless plug-ins for doing that.

What might be the next major thing to happen that will cause all of the other developers to scramble to catch up?


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## lucor (Jan 5, 2018)

I agree that we're seeing a lot of the same old (which isn't necessarily bad thing IMO), but there are some developers that are still very innovative and are pushing the boundaries. For me those are first and foremost _Performance Samples_ and _Musical Sampling_. I think (and hope) that their focus on rather small but really playable libraries, that are fantastic for specific purposes, will be something that we'll see more and more in the future. I'm really tired of those giant libraries with a gazillion mic positions as well.
And then there is of course physical modeling, like Sample Modeling and SWAM. Advances in physical modeling might be the biggest technical breakthrough on the horizon, even though I still don't think that they will ever completely replace traditional samples.


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## synergy543 (Jan 5, 2018)

Are samples up to the level of real orchestral instruments yet? 
I think Rowan Atkinson sort of sums it up here.


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## noises on (Jan 6, 2018)

lucor said:


> I agree that we're seeing a lot of the same old (which isn't necessarily bad thing IMO), but there are some developers that are still very innovative and are pushing the boundaries. For me those are first and foremost _Performance Samples_ and _Musical Sampling_. I think (and hope) that their focus on rather small but really playable libraries, that are fantastic for specific purposes, will be something that we'll see more and more in the future. I'm really tired of those giant libraries with a gazillion mic positions as well.
> And then there is of course physical modeling, like Sample Modeling and SWAM. Advances in physical modeling might be the biggest technical breakthrough on the horizon, even though I still don't think that they will ever completely replace traditional samples.


I entertained high hopes of physical modelling becoming the way forward when I bought my Yamaha Vl1 in 1996. I still use and love this instrument as much now as I did back then. Highly expressive with natural envelopes, and very musically satisfying. However somehow, listening to recent PM products, I still struggle to find any improvements in what they achieve in terms of emulations of real instruments beyond their well documented expressiveness. On the sampled front, there have been, and will continue to be vast improvements in the solo instrument arena. Huge leaps forward have been achieved by Embertones J Bell instrument, and Vir Harmonics, Bohemian Violin, for instance, rendering previous solo violin offerings all but obsolete. Listening to the achievements of the likes of Thomas Bergesen's compositions dating back from the EWQLSO (2009) virtual instruments have been capable of so much for some time already. Better use of the incredible tools we have access to will remain where personal achievement will lie. Great times to be alive!!


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Jan 6, 2018)

I think the only real development that can be made with samples is to have better algorithms to detect the playing and then put the correct samples together to form the desired articulation, phrasing, etc.

Other than that, I think its up to physical modelling but that probably won't be great for a very long time and won't come from companies like Spitfire.


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## Arbee (Jan 6, 2018)

Perhaps we'll reach a point of technical complexity where it is just simpler and cheaper to hire live players


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## Geoff Grace (Jan 6, 2018)

I think the next leap forward will be implemented with Artificial Intelligence. We're already seeing hints of its potential in effects products such as Adaptiverb and Neutron. It shouldn't be long before it's brought to bear in virtual instruments.

Best,

Geoff


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## C.R. Rivera (Jan 6, 2018)

"In the year 2525
If Libraries still thrive
If MIDI still survives..."


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## Saxer (Jan 6, 2018)

It's simply a question of expectations. A few years ago a lot of features were not available. Things like multiple room mics, legato, dynamic control by CC, round robin, release samples etc. Now they are. Until Wallanderinstruments and later Samplemodeling I was searching for useable pop/jazz brass for decades. Now the search is over. If I find something better or easier or just different for variation I'll get it. But I don't feel that as a 'diminishing returns zone'. I don't want to be entertained by new published jaw-dropping libraries. I want to use them. I'm really happy that a lot of innovation happened in the virtual instrument world during the last years. I'm in the comfort zone right now.


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## Vardaro (Jan 6, 2018)

Both Sample Modeling and Swam have used a small base of samples plus extensive scripting.
Swam-S, for the solo strings, abandons samples altogether, and the results are tonally disappointing, as are the strings in Wallander (Noteperformer) and Synful.

So?


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## Ashermusic (Jan 6, 2018)

Ironically, in some ways the closer it comes to the real thing the more dissatisfied people get. It used to be "oh, sounds good, for MIDI" but now it is "Geez, I can almost get there but not quite."

Personally, because I love musicians, I hope it never does get there.


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## thereus (Jan 6, 2018)

There are lots of rote tasks the composer has to do that can be automated and there are lots more musicality details that can be improved and can become standard. Many of these are about “interpretations” and having the variability of sounds to enable those interpretations and the automation of that Work. 

Instrument attack and release variation
Phrasing
Orchestral balancing
Greater layering and cross-fading
Automating room / reverb /placement / inter-instrument resonance
Modelling of Ensembles
All aspects of orchestration, mixing and mastering

Also anything involving singing is pretty primitive at the moment.

There is still much more that can be done with current practices of sampling and scripting although some of this would require some fundamental architectural changes away from note-by-note Midi processing in DAWs and VSTs.

The new technologies of machine learning, AI and increasing sophistication of physical modelling offer huge opportunities for improvements also but it is not really clear that there are business models that would support the kind of development that those would take at the moment given the investment involved.


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## Mike Fox (Jan 6, 2018)

Ark 3 is a game changer.

Musical Sampling has done some incredible stuff too.

CSS seems to be the string library that a lot of people always wanted.

ProjectSAM has also done some really unique things.

I dont think we'll ever see a major leap forward all at once. It will be a gradual, evolving process. Thats just how technology works, and its pretty amazing how far weve come in the last 10-20 years.


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## DSmolken (Jan 6, 2018)

A choir that can take lyrics input in plain English or Latin, and will quickly produce intelligible results, would be a massive improvement over what's out there.


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## Craig Sharmat (Jan 6, 2018)

I will agree with Mike, Ark 3 is a new approach and really added something unique this year (I do demos for OT). It is almost a must buy.
Strikeforce with it's implementation and simplicity made programming drums so intuitive it is really hard to make it sound bad (I don't do demos for them). Last years Modo Bass which seemed to come out of nowhere is a terrific physical modeling plug in. Superior Drummer 3 as mentioned above is a crazy good plug but I will likely never use most of what it can do.


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## Casiquire (Jan 6, 2018)

That's the thing about innovation. It comes out of stagnation when everyone thinks nothing new can ever be created.


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## driscollmusick (Jan 6, 2018)

DSmolken said:


> A choir that can take lyrics input in plain English or Latin, and will quickly produce intelligible results, would be a massive improvement over what's out there.


And soloists!


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## Alex Fraser (Jan 6, 2018)

To address the OP - quite possibly. The rate of progress has slowed, for sure.
But to flip the question around a little....how many musicians and composers can actually use their DAWs and libraries to maximum effect? I'd suggest that in many cases, it's us - the composers - who need to catch up..


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## Lee Blaske (Jan 6, 2018)

mikefox789 said:


> ProjectSAM has also done some really unique things.



ProjectSAM is an interesting company. I like the way they continue to support their products and add value. I've got Symphobia 1, and I had some of their earlier brass libraries (didn't upgrade in time, though, so I can't use them now). Whenever I see they have a sale, I consider buying some of their other products. But, the thing (at least for me) that seems impressive about ProjectSAM libraries are those huge multis where you're playing the whole orchestra at once. I think that would be great for live, but it seems to me that if you're not live, you'll always get better results playing and controlling all of those individual elements separately (and I've already got all of those things covered in multiple libraries).


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## Lee Blaske (Jan 6, 2018)

Craig Sharmat said:


> I will agree with Mike, Ark 3 is a new approach and really added something unique this year (I do demos for OT). It is almost a must buy.



I've got Ark 3 and like it. I suppose I need to get into it more.

But how would you sum up what's new and unique about the approach?


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## kitekrazy (Jan 6, 2018)

I find it interesting when people use the term "outdated or old". Do the samples get mold or need refrigeration? Only the workflow involved would be outdated.


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## kimarnesen (Jan 6, 2018)

I think we are just in the beginning of having libraries that let you play all kinds of articulations without any programming and keyswitches. So I hope playability will be the focus for developers now, as we have the sounds; almost everything has been sampled. So more of that, please!


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## Quasar (Jan 6, 2018)

kitekrazy said:


> I find it interesting when people use the term "outdated or old". Do the samples get mold or need refrigeration? Only the workflow involved would be outdated.


LOL I've always reacted the same way to this. 

Interesting discussion. I don't think there is a one size fits all answer to the diminishing returns question. It's a moving target in terms of people using these tools in different ways with different expectations for different end purposes. For the mock-up artist "realism" might be a holy grail, whereas for others of us it doesn't mean much of anything at all.

As has already been said, I very much like the leaner, meaner, more instantly "playable" approach undertaken by Performance Samples et al, which is more specialized, focusing on doing a smaller number of things really well. I doubt we're at a point of diminishing returns yet in terms of UI design and workflow or in terms of physical modelling or hybrid approaches to advance VI creation.

On the other hand, once you have what you need to work with, anything can be seen as diminishing returns for you personally, no matter how improved or innovative the Next Great Thing might be. In 2016 I was lamenting the fact that there were so many cool VIs and libraries out there that I didn't have or couldn't afford and that my sonic palette was so limited. But I've been working diligently and trying to shop wisely and frugally to fill all of the perceived holes, and today I can't honestly say that I lack anything. Sure, there are some high-end libraries I'd like to have if I could, but I certainly don't _need_ them. Rather, I've accumulated more stuff than I even know how to use well, to where it can be paralyzing. So even if I had a blank check to acquire EVERYONE'S expensive EVERYTHING bundles, this would only be diminishing returns for me at this point.


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## Mike Fox (Jan 6, 2018)

Lee Blaske said:


> ProjectSAM is an interesting company. I like the way they continue to support their products and add value. I've got Symphobia 1, and I had some of their earlier brass libraries (didn't upgrade in time, though, so I can't use them now). Whenever I see they have a sale, I consider buying some of their other products. But, the thing (at least for me) that seems impressive about ProjectSAM libraries are those huge multis where you're playing the whole orchestra at once. I think that would be great for live, but it seems to me that if you're not live, you'll always get better results playing and controlling all of those individual elements separately (and I've already got all of those things covered in multiple libraries).



I probably have more respect for ProjectSAM than any other developer. They truly value their customers, and the fact that they keep updating and adding to their libs totally proves that. I suppose it is a great way to stay relevant. Those multis have gotten me out of serious binds, and often provide really good skecthing ideas/inspiration.


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## Mike Fox (Jan 6, 2018)

Lee Blaske said:


> I've got Ark 3 and like it. I suppose I need to get into it more.
> 
> But how would you sum up what's new and unique about the approach?


The way they recorded the strings to match the percussion is genius. Its just so damn aggressive. There are also articulations that Ive yet to hear from any other lib, and the realism of some of the patches are unparalleled. The workflow just feels so much different, and is insanely efficient. I feel like there are so many possibilities with Ark 3. Others might feel differently, but this is how Ive connected with it.


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Jan 6, 2018)

Ashermusic said:


> Ironically, in some ways the closer it comes to the real thing the more dissatisfied people get. It used to be "oh, sounds good, for MIDI" but now it is "Geez, I can almost get there but not quite."
> 
> Personally, because I love musicians, I hope it never does get there.


I completely agree. It seems the more we push for 'realism' we are really saying we want to replace the real.
But that will not happen, because you cannot replace what is real, without replacing it with something identical.
Why replace something with the same thing, why not just keep the original 

The end of realism then is the original 
Back to the start...

I too hope they realise this and just accept, real enough to use for mock-ups and small budgets. But if the finances are there for the real, then it seems self-explanatory for me


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## jononotbono (Jan 6, 2018)




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## CT (Jan 6, 2018)

kimarnesen said:


> I think we are just in the beginning of having libraries that let you play all kinds of articulations without any programming and keyswitches. So I hope playability will be the focus for developers now, as we have the sounds; almost everything has been sampled. So more of that, please!



This is what I think, too. Combining as much as possible into single "performance patches" is something I'm excited to see become more common and refined. That, and increasing the leanness and efficiency of VI's overall when it comes to computing power.

The big developers have most aesthetic bases covered, and covered well. The sound is very much there. I expect future "wow" moments to be more related to the above stuff.


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## Lee Blaske (Jan 6, 2018)

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> I too hope they realise this and just accept, real enough to use for mock-ups and small budgets. But if the finances are there for the real, then it seems self-explanatory for me



It would sure be great if the money was there for rooms full of live musicians. But it hardly ever is anymore. 

But it goes beyond that. The TIME is hardly ever there to plan for and call a group of live players and to prepare charts. And, the endless number of demo options needed to land a job plus the endless revisions requested up to the last minute also add immense complications. Also to be considered is the fact that an awful lot of music being used today comes out of libraries. And, library music is usually made today on a prospective basis (i.e. no guarantee that the piece of music being made will ever be used or make money). So, it's difficult to assemble finances to invest in a lot of player hours for something with an uncertain future.

Weirdly, or maybe not so weirdly, it's the composers who really crave the live musicians. From what I hear being used in countless productions these days, the people actually producing the shows and choosing/paying for the music are pretty darned happy with stuff that can be slammed together with samples, loops and virtual instruments.


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## nas (Jan 6, 2018)

The Joshua Bell violin by Embertone has convinced me we are NOT in the diminishing returns zone yet.


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## Paul Grymaud (Jan 6, 2018)

What a fucking good sound ! The new Cavernphonic strings... Gosh, I gotta buy it.


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## mc_deli (Jan 6, 2018)

Diminishing returns - ha! Fiddling while Rome burns!


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## joebaggan (Jan 6, 2018)

I'd say the diminishing returns problem isn't the technology. The tools are better than they've ever been. The problem is more with the digital musicians creating a lot of the homogenous, indistinguishable, re-tread music with it. Hello Hollywood "epic" soundtrack!


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## Jaap (Jan 6, 2018)

The earlier mentioned Ark 3 is a great new and smart approach, but for me even more is Novo Modern Strings with a first real hybrid approach and I hope to see more of this kind of evolvement in the future. Doesn't need to be persé the hybrid as for use in cinematic music, but I think exploring new ventures and sound worlds derived from acoustic instruments and build new ones upon that would be great!


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## Geoff Grace (Jan 6, 2018)

Paul Grymaud said:


> What a fucking good sound ! The new Cavernphonic strings... Gosh, I gotta buy it.


This may be the first time in my relatively long life that I've ever seen the words "fucking" (dirty) and "gosh" (clean) in the same paragraph. Talk about hybrid!

Best,

Geoff


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## emasters (Jan 6, 2018)

joebaggan said:


> I'd say the diminishing returns problem isn't the technology. The tools are better than they've ever been. The problem is more with the digital musicians creating a lot of the homogenous, indistinguishable, re-tread music with it. Hello Hollywood "epic" soundtrack!



Similar perspective here -- it's not the tools, but rather the way they are creatively (or not so creatively) used and applied.


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## gsilbers (Jan 6, 2018)

i think the orchestra from sonuscore and sonokinetiks seems very advance. the kontakt engine helps get more life and cool things out of samples. programming really fast strings spic to be on just a short passage or provinding inpsiration or help for the many types of orchestration/compositional effects seems to be a step forward. i dont know how else would it be moving forward in sampling. orchestra and live instruments have been sampled to death. unless you want for example, start gettinginto recording 100 tuba players all at once. which i guess 8dio is doing. 
the novo strings is another great example of a an advance kontakt engine. giving the user a huge amount of power to sculp a hyrbid sound from an organic familiar source.


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## JJP (Jan 6, 2018)

Lee Blaske said:


> Weirdly, or maybe not so weirdly, it's the composers who really crave the live musicians. From what I hear being used in countless productions these days, the people actually producing the shows and choosing/paying for the music are pretty darned happy with stuff that can be slammed together with samples, loops and virtual instruments.



*Off topic response*

I think it's more a question of the project. I do a lot of live TV work where having a live band or orchestra is seen as crucial to the vibe of the show. I'm also surprised at how many Netflix productions are popping up on recording stages in LA with union musicians. Those usually don't have particularly large budgets for music. Also the recent video game awards, which was only streamed, not broadcast, had a live orchestra of LA union players.

*Back on topic
*
I still think there is a lot to be done with manipulating how samples and articulations are selected to make samples more playable. This may mean a completely new sample player that goes beyond what Kontakt et al. can do. Perhaps somebody like VSL will surprise us in this area. They've done it before.


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## gsilbers (Jan 6, 2018)

The next breakthrough






bigger orchestras


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## Casiquire (Jan 6, 2018)

If anyone's interested, I won't even charge you for stealing this idea. But since the beginning of my journey with samples I've wondered why nobody is making a more integrated solution. A situation where you plug in notes into your notation software and it detects which samples fit the best. The advantage here is that it's proactive, not reactive. No need to purge samples, only the right ones will load in the first place. No legato delay. You could have more sampled phrases instead of all legato Frankensteins. Etc. Etc. Then adjust as needed.


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## conan (Jan 6, 2018)

My money’s on adaptive cloud-based artificial intelligence driven performance legato. That will be the biggest innovation since the autoharp.


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## JJP (Jan 6, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> A situation where you plug in notes into your notation software and it detects which samples fit the best. The advantage here is that it's proactive, not reactive.



That ends up being a benefit and a problem. How does the software know how you want it phrased and articulated? Perhaps the ability to choose a particular style first will get you part of the way, but there still may be a lot of tweaking needed.


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## Casiquire (Jan 6, 2018)

JJP said:


> That ends up being a benefit and a problem. How does the software know how you want it phrased and articulated? Perhaps the ability to choose a particular style first will get you part of the way, but there still may be a lot of tweaking needed.



Of course, you can swap anything out or adjust velocities and crossfades. Thing is it doesn't really introduce any problems we don't already have today, but it allows for a ton of saved time and more natural expression. Problem is, it would be a coding nightmare. I'm sure people said that about legato, but still.


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## Sears Poncho (Jan 6, 2018)

I have Garritan Harps (the full version). It's become one of my favorite programs of all time. Here's why (and how it relates to this topic): it changes the way I play and think. The tuning allows me to play amazing glissandi that I could never do in "piano mode". I can play Bisbigliando because I can tune 3 keys to the same note. When I write, I think I am trying to write for harp instead of "harpist plays piano part", and the program encourages me to think like that.
I can see that for other instruments as well. For strings, have one key play open e and the next one fingered e, for fiddling or string crossing effects. Onscreen keyboards that have keys that turn red when bow is running out, showing the player how long a string player can hold a note. Keys that turn blue when a woodwind player is going to need to breathe. Warning signs- "Brass are gonna be too damn loud".


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## erica-grace (Jan 6, 2018)

JJP said:


> How does the software know how you want it phrased and articulated?



Vulcan Mind Meld?


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## gsilbers (Jan 6, 2018)

erica-grace said:


> Vulcan Mind Meld?


ha! i always thought it was "Melt".


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## NYC Composer (Jan 6, 2018)

I want A.I. to choose better phrasing and articulations than what I intended. Oh-and while it's at it, it can choose some better notes too. 

Then it can come up with a better title, tag and log it, then bring me an expresso.


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## synergy543 (Jan 6, 2018)

I want A.I. to play an ensemble with multiple players each responding very slightly differently (with timing, dynamics, vibrato, etc.) to my input. With variable controls like the humanize pitch function on VSL's VI-Pro to adjust variations (user selectable rather than just random), this could make ensembles sounds much more realistic.


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## erica-grace (Jan 6, 2018)

gsilbers said:


> a! i always thought it was "Melt".



We are talking about Vulcans - not cheese!


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## erica-grace (Jan 6, 2018)

Regarding AI - sounds nice and all, but you still have to start with samples. Samples played by musicians - and how those musicians play will largely dictate how your final product sounds. So while AI may make things quicker and easier, it isn't necessarily going to give you a better final product.



NYC Composer said:


> I want A.I. to choose better phrasing and articulations than what I intended.



But the samples need to be there in the first place. The developer will already have had to record those articulations and phrasing - AI is not going to be able to give you phrasing that has not already been recorded. If you have a single long note played, will AI turn that into staccato? Well, it can shorten the note, but then it won't sound like it was played staccato, thereby making things worse - not better. Will AI be able to take that long note and do a crescendo and dimuendo? Sure - but that can already be done without AI. Maybe it can do it faster, but it won't be able to do it better.

Unless of course, you are talking about "correctly" choosing the proper samples (phrasing and articulations) from a HUGE pool (already recorded by the developer), but that can already be done without AI. Maybe it can do it faster, but it won't be able to do it better.


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## creativeforge (Jan 6, 2018)

JJP said:


> That ends up being a benefit and a problem. How does the software know how you want it phrased and articulated? Perhaps the ability to choose a particular style first will get you part of the way, but there still may be a lot of tweaking needed.



One word: PRESETS.


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## Lee Blaske (Jan 6, 2018)

gsilbers said:


> The next breakthrough
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They're going to have to increase cartage fees for that.


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## Sears Poncho (Jan 6, 2018)

The Embertone Josh Bell violin has a demo mp3 of Mendelssohn. I can tell immediately that it's fake because of the lack of open E notes. This would be something that AI might help with. Maybe it could recognize patterns where open E made sense, have some sort of "thinking mode" that made choices like that. Naturally the samples would need to be there, but it's something that a non string player might not understand yet the program could "suggest".

The same with gliss/portamento, or trombone slides. In real life, they are usually at a place where the person needs to shift. I'm a pro orchestrator, but I'd love to have a program "suggest" various techniques like that in winds and brass.


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## thereus (Jan 6, 2018)

erica-grace said:


> Regarding AI - sounds nice and all, but you still have to start with samples. Samples played by musicians - and how those musicians play will largely dictate how your final product sounds. So while AI may make things quicker and easier, it isn't necessarily going to give you a better final product.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Faster is good.

The real fun can start when the machine can play a whole phrase and also change the sounds of each note in that phrase in a musical way as a player does. A combination of both phrasing intelligence and physical (sample) modelling on steroids. The tech is almost available in theory but not nearly practical/viable for such a small audience as the composer community / cottage developer industry as yet, especially since we demand everything without latency while using Von Nuemann architecture, dumb playback engines and a hopelessly inadequate 40-year-old protocol for actually defining the music. There are many other industries ahead of us in the queue.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 6, 2018)

I always assumed that the MIDI protocol would evolve and be made practical by the use of adapters, so that legacy devices wouldn't be orphaned. Obviously, it never happened.


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## thereus (Jan 6, 2018)

NYC Composer said:


> I always assumed that the MIDI protocol would evolve and be made practical by the use of adapters, so that legacy devices wouldn't be orphaned. Obviously, it never happened.



It works for percussion instruments, more or less. Thank God for Steve Reich. At least we have one genre where everything sounds like a percussion instrument.


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## dpasdernick (Jan 6, 2018)

synergy543 said:


> I want A.I. to play an ensemble with multiple players each responding very slightly differently (with timing, dynamics, vibrato, etc.) to my input. With variable controls like the humanize pitch function on VSL's VI-Pro to adjust variations (user selectable rather than just random), this could make ensembles sounds much more realistic.



I want AI to just put money in my bank account. 

I agree with Jay when he said the closer you get with samples the more you realize how fake they are. Especially solo instruments like a sax. 

No one has cracked that yet. Certainly raw sampling will not replace a sax. Add to that trying to play a wind instrument with a piano keyboard also creates a lost in translation result. 

I'm with the OP. Diminishing returns is where we are.


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## kimarnesen (Jan 6, 2018)

I want to see a orchestral library where you have more control over each instrument. Like really adjusting each of the 16 1st violins individually, like their colors and style of playing. Maybe that a few of them are nervous about their performance, OK, maybe that’s too much  but yeah, more control. 

Especially for a choir library, like mics and settings for each singer so you can spread the singers around in the room for a surround effect, or create soli groups.


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## robgb (Jan 6, 2018)

Sears Poncho said:


> I can tell immediately that it's fake because of the lack of open E notes.


Is this seriously a concern? 99.9% of the population don't even know what a sample library is.


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## rgarber (Jan 6, 2018)

Well, I dunno... *scratching head* Take that N thread for instance. They are just head over heels for it .... but come to think of it, I don't know just what N is!


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## NYC Composer (Jan 7, 2018)

N is love. N is life.


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## GtrString (Jan 7, 2018)

We have the idealists, who keep pushing the boundaries of sampling (trying to make digital as close to analog as possible), and the realists who work from the parameters of the limitations in the digital domain, trying to make useful tools for us composers by offering new combinations and ways to manipulate sound. The human ear is so limited, that the theoretical differences means less and less in practical use (and in a recording mix). Think about it, QUANTUM computers are being developed in this writing moment, so there is no valid reason why we should think we are on the brink of possible developments. The digital revolution is still just a baby.


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## DavidY (Jan 7, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> If anyone's interested, I won't even charge you for stealing this idea. But since the beginning of my journey with samples I've wondered why nobody is making a more integrated solution. A situation where you plug in notes into your notation software and it detects which samples fit the best. The advantage here is that it's proactive, not reactive. No need to purge samples, only the right ones will load in the first place. No legato delay. You could have more sampled phrases instead of all legato Frankensteins. Etc. Etc. Then adjust as needed.


As a total newbie to this, I have wondered how people keep track of the huge numbers of samples available.

I can see it's not so bad when it's a more familiar sound which exists in the real world (eg. a pizzicato), although even then I wouldn't claim to know every articulation on orchestral instruments.

But how do people keep track of all those "evolutions"/ synth sounds etc and know/remember which one to choose? Do the better DAWs have features to help with this?

I have been thinking about this as a feature suggestion for 'N'. Imagine if it analysed all your sounds in the background after you load a new library and produced a database? (Maybe it would silently move the modwheel as well as part of the analysis.) And then keep track of which ones you include in compositions and almost as importantly the ones you take out. It could even have some sort of cloud database which analyse what other folks do as well.

Of course computer assistance could go too far... 

"It looks like you're writing a piece of Scandi Noir. Would you like me to build a template of intense, brooding sounds?"
"You have used that sample in the last 17 compositions in a row. Would you like to use this as an alternative?"


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## FriFlo (Jan 7, 2018)

I think the problem is that all products have gone that mass market route. Look at how prices of sample libraries have gone down in the last decade! This is good in that sense that as a professional you can easily afford to just buy almost any product out there and pick and choose. But it also has some drawbacks:
Think about VSLs Herbert Tucmandel for a moment. When he started VSL they had a lot of time for various experiments with hardly any competition at all, funding money based on some experiments he did with his Cello (I clearly remember the videos about his pioneering work). Nowadays it is probably hard to get any funds at all so most developers have to slowly build their own funds by releasing small products. 
There are some companies that do take their time to get the products right (unfortunately, I cannot include VSL there, currently). But those developers, like Cinematic Studio, have to be very careful to choose their target market! Cinematic Studio Strings is a great product, but it is pretty narrow regarding articulations and I am not sure we will see a lot of expansions on those strings... for the vast majority of potential customers, strings are just fine - no need for a sul ponticello expansion and those kind of things! But with those prices, you just need to sell your product to a huge number of people. IMO, we will probably not see big leaps of progress anymore with libraries. What I would hope for would be one company to step by step provide a full orchestra with all the detail you could imagine and the greatest thoroughness applied to the quality. There, VSL was my champion of hope and I still have hope they could do it, simply because they have the recourses and experience, but currently I am not so sure they can follow through with it. 
I would like to see a developer who dares to really experiment with test recordings, until he may find the best way of accomplishing his goal. With most current products I rather get the feeling, every recording needs to become a product, as test recordings would be to expensive to get the return in a final product! Not to blame any developers, just to point out the weakness of our economic situation ...


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## DSmolken (Jan 7, 2018)

Jaap said:


> The earlier mentioned Ark 3 is a great new and smart approach, but for me even more is Novo Modern Strings with a first real hybrid approach and I hope to see more of this kind of evolvement in the future. Doesn't need to be persé the hybrid as for use in cinematic music, but I think exploring new ventures and sound worlds derived from acoustic instruments and build new ones upon that would be great!


Yeah, I made an instrument like that a few years ago because a friend sampled his replica of medieval bagpipes and they weren't really the kind of bagpipes many people need, so I thought, hey, maybe I can turn them into a simple subtractive synth. Then I did one from double bass samples, figured out what weaknesses it had, and now I have three strings, two sax and one tuba also doing that, adding little refinements each time. Using sampled breath noise as a noise oscillator, that kind of thing.


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## FriFlo (Jan 7, 2018)

As Metropolis Ark 3 was mentioned: yes, I think OT do a great job at trying to really provide useful stuff, but branding it in a clever way to sell those libraries to a bigger audience. If you look at the contents you will be pleased to find lots of patches that enable you to write pretty niche stuff (I just love those sloppy string quintet shorts!), but the library is branded as if it just was about trailer sound. Sometimes, I just wish all that branding and marketing wasn't necessary...


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## Casiquire (Jan 7, 2018)

synergy543 said:


> I want A.I. to play an ensemble with multiple players each responding very slightly differently (with timing, dynamics, vibrato, etc.) to my input. With variable controls like the humanize pitch function on VSL's VI-Pro to adjust variations (user selectable rather than just random), this could make ensembles sounds much more realistic.



Sounds like the Dimension series to me!


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## PeterN (Jan 7, 2018)

After two years there will be the first Garageband and Logic Pro XIV singer. Like the drums, u can choose "Laura", "Mark", "Frank" and who not. Explanation of voice type, maybe even "Bruce S" with a raspy voice and "Bob D" with a nasal one. Reagge guy will have a joint smoking in the pic u choose. Says hes from California. Then u write ur lyrics in some field and you dont need to hire that singer anymore.

When that stuff starts to write the lyrics/poetry too, heh.

And after 15 years outer space aliens will introduce completely new type of sounds, on frequencies we were totally unaware of. These are not called frequencies, but 4D gamma-supernovies. Namely, it is discovered that frequencies are 4 dimensional. This will influence music more than Rock n Roll. Spitfire will be first with library on this. Spitfire will change its name to SpaceShuttleColumbia. Over here it will be called SSC. The "developer gods", will also face competition from outer space.


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## ptram (Jan 7, 2018)

Sound developers are doing great. As a user of Logic, I’m on the contrary disappointed by how they can't still make musical symbols match sound articulations. My guess is that their top management is thinking to music as just hip-hop, ignoring anything else nherited by this great program.


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## Sears Poncho (Jan 7, 2018)

robgb said:


> Is this seriously a concern? 99.9% of the population don't even know what a sample library is.


McDonalds is the most popular restaurant. People watch reality garbage on tv. What's your point?

Yes, it's a big concern for people who want to be good at their jobs and good at music. 99% of people would be happy with crap. I'm not them and I'm happy about that.  Most people around here aren't them, and I'm happy about that at all. By your criteria, we should all be using floppy discs with our 1987 Roland keyboards, since 99% of people would think that's fine.

BTW.. I think if you heard an actual example of what I'm talking about with strings, you'd say "Aaaaaaah, I had no idea". Yes, it would make a big difference.


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## StevenOBrien (Jan 7, 2018)

I think sampling is a dead end. Physical modelling is capable of doing SO much more than current offerings, but nobody is really pushing it to its limits yet either in terms of realism, or in terms of making it as easy to program as a sample library.


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## Harzmusic (Jan 7, 2018)

FriFlo said:


> I would like to see a developer who dares to really experiment with test recordings, until he may find the best way of accomplishing his goal. With most current products I rather get the feeling, every recording needs to become a product, as test recordings would be to expensive to get the return in a final product! Not to blame any developers, just to point out the weakness of our economic situation ...



That is very much how I see it, and I partly blame every developer who drastically dropped their prices for existing products in the last decade. I feel like some of them said "Hey, we recouped our investment and made some profits, might as well just ruin the market now".
Who will risk putting in a lot of work and research and funds into a new library, if you have to compete with the prices of already established players? Samples don't really age, what sounded great a decade ago, still sounds quite good today, even though methods and scripting have evolved. And there is no natural scarcity in digital products and licences, you can make as many copies as you like. So why would the big players not sell their old products at an extremely competitive price point?

Hollywood Strings Gold used to cost almost 4 figures. I remember picking it up for 99€ at a clearance sale. It is not the best library, but it is a million times better than anything new anybody could release for 99 bucks.
To at least recoup your investment AND put out a product that is close to the quality of HS, you would need to release it at a way higher price point. Like HS was originally released at a higher price point, because the intial investment was enormous. But the lower price makes it almost impossible to compete at that level.

The market is saturated in a way, so technically there is still room for improvement, but hardly anyone can afford to take the risk for research. There's just not much money in it, because the majority of people can't even make the best out of the things that are already out there and wouldn't pay the price that something actually new and extensive would cost.
So the consumer market for trailer-kiddies who want an easy way to make big boom epic stuff with a single click just makes sense if you want to make a living. So you market to them, and try to create something that the professional crowd can also have some decent use for.
The alternative is smaller, specialized libraries like Jasper and the guys at musicalsampling do, filling in very specific gaps in the market.

So yeah. We might just be at a point, where the industry has backed itself into a corner and doesn't evolve at the pace it once did.
But I agree, there is a lot of room for innovation especially in the way we treat MIDI-Data.


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## Ashermusic (Jan 7, 2018)

Harzmusic said:


> So the consumer market for trailer-kiddies who want an easy way to make big boom epic stuff with a single click just makes sense if you want to make a living. So you market to them, and try to create something that the professional crowd can also have some decent use for.
> The alternative is smaller, specialized libraries like Jasper and the guys at musicalsampling do, filling in very specific gaps in the market.
> 
> So yeah. We might just be at a point, where the industry has backed itself into a corner and doesn't evolve at the pace it once did.
> But I agree, there is a lot of room for innovation especially in the way we treat MIDI-Data.



Bam.


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## Craig Sharmat (Jan 7, 2018)

Lee Blaske said:


> I've got Ark 3 and like it. I suppose I need to get into it more.
> 
> But how would you sum up what's new and unique about the approach?



Well they say it is a beating orchestra and the percussion well is nice but not groundbreaking. What is most interesting, at least for me and it took a few minutes before I realized it is all these tempo'd patches are like micro phrases, far more malleable than larger phrase based libraries. The ability to work with real sounding snapshots gives Ark 3 it's uniqueness and I can see other libraries spawning from this approach. In a sense 8dio and Berlin Strings also have approached this with long notes using arcs or dynamic patches. ARK 3 gives you the tools to kind of work like Project Sam in that you get nice working sections recorded together but Ark 3 gives these micro phrases that sound real. I hope OT does an Ark4 or what ever number with smaller sections just to broaden the spectral palette, Ark 3 is pretty big sounding.


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## bigcat1969 (Jan 7, 2018)

Nice insights on this thread. Love the forum because of these types of discussions.

Physical modelling seems to be much farther from its peak than sampling is and might offer some amazing jumps in the future. PianoTeq is now pretty close to the real thing imo and the tweaking potential is impressive and what is it called Modo Bass seems impressive based on comments and some demos, I don't own it. True orchestral instruments might be harder to do as the attempts so far don't seem that good.

As mentioned the market is over saturated and the price of instruments has dropped so much that I'm not sure it can bear experiments that fail to generate revenue and sadly piracy doesn't help. Still it does seem like even the big companies are trying to stretch their wings somewhat and some smaller companies have created some cool instruments or collections that seem original in some way.

In the freebie world there has been significant movement forward in the last few years imo though I'm obviously biased. Mr. Smolken for instance has some lovely sfz instruments that are beyond what was out there before he came along. The VSCO Community has has some very nice free instruments and a number of chaps have created composite orchestras using PD, CC and the like samples that are quite nice for starters.


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## Montisquirrel (Jan 7, 2018)

Whatever will be released in the future, I only wish the people in online forums will write the whole names of it and stop using abbrevations, so I know that they are talking about. Or the developers just stop using names with "C" and "S".


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## chillbot (Jan 7, 2018)

Montisquirrel said:


> Whatever will be released in the future, I only wish the people in online forums will write the whole names of it and stop using abbrevations, so I know that they are talking about. Or the developers just stop using names with "C" and "S".



But... but... all my hard work...

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/glossary-of-vi-c-abbreviations.67167/


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## NoamL (Jan 7, 2018)

IMO the next quantum leap forward is *a* *MIDI lookahead feature in your DAW.*

MIDI lookahead will enable performance scripts to be much better. For instance Spitfire, OT and so on have performance patches with "speed detection" / "adaptive legato." It sounds fancy but it's just a bit of script inside of Kontakt that stores the number of milliseconds since the last note (or last N notes, let's say). If that stored variable is low enough, then the script switches to "fast run" samples for future notes. The problem with this approach is that Kontakt has no way of knowing that the first note in a run _will be_ part of a run, since there is no previous note. This creates an artificial effect that sticks out badly... the first note of a run is a regular sustain and only the 2nd and further notes are fast run samples. With MIDI look-ahead, your sampler will be able to interpret UPCOMING notes as being parts of phrases, runs, etc and this will enable much more intelligent scripting.

Another reason for MIDI lookahead is to enhance sample libraries with preroll sampling. Developers like Performance Samples and Cinematic Studio are showing the world that you get much better results if you DON'T chop off the start of a sample to "make it playable." However, this requires each track to have a negative delay programmed to match the amount of preroll; and this workaround solution is insufficient when an articulation uses multiple lengths of preroll (for example different lengths of legato transition). With MIDI lookahead, the DAW will be able to inform Kontakt of upcoming notes and Kontakt can send the audio back "early" on a sample-by-sample basis, such that each sample lines up perfectly with the grid.


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## Craig Sharmat (Jan 7, 2018)

chillbot said:


> But... but... all my hard work...
> 
> https://vi-control.net/community/threads/glossary-of-vi-c-abbreviations.67167/



Yeah but Dec (December) 7th is like so yesterday.


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## bigcat1969 (Jan 7, 2018)

Actually the midi look ahead question was one of my first when I started 'making' instruments as it seemed like such and obvious feature. I was and am stunned that it doesn't exist.


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## DSmolken (Jan 7, 2018)

MIDI lookahead will also be huge for vocals, as it could do all the adjustment of timing for phonetic transitions that software like Vocaloid does, and you could just use MIDI imported straight from a regular score.


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## novaburst (Jan 8, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> But to flip the question around a little....how many musicians and composers can actually use their DAWs and libraries to maximum effect? I'd suggest that in many cases, it's us - the composers - who need to catch up..



The breakthrough is already hear and has been hear for many years,

I think a lot of people feel that when a breakthrough comes they believe it takes away all the hard work that you need to invest to make it sound or work correctly.

Many are also comparing the new with the the old and it does not necessarily work like that, also many believe it should work like the old or what already been developed.

This attitude trips alot of people up and courses them to lay aside great products.

Let us take Lass for example, I have heard this library in mockups and it sounds ok, I have also heard it on other mockups and it can sound out of this world simply because the user understands the DAW and the library and is willing to invest time and hard work in their work.

Some can already see the breakthrough in many librarys where others appear to be blind,

You find that people who understand breakthroughs in their Librarys will not be purchasing library after library after library and yet another library.

You may have the best guitar, maybe a fender Stratocaster but it just want make you a good guitarist without the hard work.

Becuase samples of late are indeed sounding more realistic the approach is almost like the real Instrument.

Hard work or even harder work.


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## Geoff Grace (Jan 9, 2018)

Craig Sharmat said:


> Yeah but Dec (December) 7th is like so yesterday.


It was "a date which will live in infamy."

Best,

Geoff


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## reutunes (Jan 9, 2018)

C.R. Rivera said:


> "In the year 2525
> If Libraries still thrive
> If MIDI still survives..."



Oh gosh - I haven't heard about that song for ages. Grifter Records asked me to remix a cover of it a few years back and wanted a kind of distorted techno reswizzle. Listen if you dare...


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## Darren Durann (Jan 9, 2018)

2025: people realize that they spent a hell of a lot of money on things that they stopped using at all once they lost interest in

a) writing music and/or

b) going into insane levels of credit card debt for things that have been repackaged to death. The whole "intoxicated by spending" thing is a very dangerous game to play, and not just from a financial standpoint.

Not meant cynically or sarcastically in the least. Just musing, so I hope no one takes it the wrong way. Today my defaults for final mockups are_* still*_ (after 12 years) mostly the Hollywood and SD series by EW. And I get paid.


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## Darren Durann (Jan 9, 2018)

Oh, I should mention, nope haven't received free anything from anybody. Also, there are Spitfire libraries I LOVE (a couple of the Chris Hein as well).

In fact, I should mention that I don't use EW for some solo instruments. I use CH for solo violin and sometimes woodwinds, and Adagio Bass and Viola (I never bother with the ensembles in Adagio...EW and SF are far better alternatives imo).


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## MarcelM (Jan 9, 2018)

i think there will be always someone like alex wallbank coming out of nowhere with a new kickass library and there is still plenty of room for improvement.

i also think there are alot of developers which want to make some easy and fast money (hello eastwest) and hype their libs a bit too much.


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## Syneast (Jan 10, 2018)

Lee Blaske said:


> I wonder if we've really reached the point of diminishing returns when it comes to sample library development.


I am starting to wonder if I have reached my personal point of diminishing returns with samples in general.

I don't know if anyone remembers Dance Ejay, the loop based music making "game" that came out in 1997. It kind of started me off in music production, but I left it when I got sick of arranging other people's sounds and instead wanted to make my own. I think I am slowly reaching that point again with orchestral samples. They all sound perfectly fine these days, no matter which developer you choose, because most of them use award-winning engineers and musicians and expensive spaces and equipment.

I mean no disrespect here, but I personally can't help but feel somewhat fake when I use samples. Like buying a gourmet dinner prepared by a star chef, chopping it up, putting on your own table and serving it to people as your own. That's perfectly understandable if you own a restaurant and need to provide quality food for cheaper than you can make it yourself, but if I was just cooking for fun in my spare time I'd start to wonder what the hell I'm doing.



Lee Blaske said:


> What might be the next major thing to happen that will cause all of the other developers to scramble to catch up?


Next thing that will seriously impress me is if someone finds a way to make this sort of thing easier to do:



Then again, if it's easy to do I guess it's not really that impressive.


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## Darren Durann (Jan 10, 2018)

Syneast said:


> Next thing that will seriously impress me is if someone finds a way to make this sort of thing easier to do:
> 
> 
> 
> Then again, if it's easy to do I guess it's not really that impressive.




I'd honestly be depressed if I did something like that, not much to be proud of there imo. Whoever did that apparently was hoping people who actually wrote music wouldn't listen to it.

No offense to enthusiasts. Really.


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## thereus (Jan 10, 2018)

Syneast said:


> I am starting to wonder if I have reached my personal point of diminishing returns with samples in general.
> 
> I don't know if anyone remembers Dance Ejay, the loop based music making "game" that came out in 1997. It kind of started me off in music production, but I left it when I got sick of arranging other people's sounds and instead wanted to make my own. I think I am slowly reaching that point again with orchestral samples. They all sound perfectly fine these days, no matter which developer you choose, because most of them use award-winning engineers and musicians and expensive spaces and equipment.
> 
> ...




None of them are paying attention to the conductor. Bloody amateurs.


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## Pier (Jan 10, 2018)

Geoff Grace said:


> I think the next leap forward will be implemented with Artificial Intelligence. We're already seeing hints of its potential in effects products such as Adaptiverb and Neutron. It shouldn't be long before it's brought to bear in virtual instruments.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Geoff



Indeed.

It's way easier to train a computer to figure out how to reproduce realistic results than to develop an algorithm by hand to model whatever you wish to model.

For example we spent decades with voice recognition algos but it has been mostly solved in a couple of years with AI.

I recently saw this cloud generation powered by AI which produces realistic results and consumes a fraction of the CPU required by traditional simulation algos.



This same idea can be applied to sound but virtual instrument companies (Spitfire, etc) don't have the technical know how, and AI companies don't really care about sound. Man I wish I could work on a project like this.


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## whinecellar (Jan 10, 2018)

Only read the first post on this thread, but yeah, it definitely resonates with me. Like many of you, I started all this in earnest back in 2004 with EWQLSO Platinum. I’ve added most of the big guns along the way and I’m glad for the tonal options, but other than very specific niche stuff, I’ve got all the orchestral stuff I need – and plenty that I rarely touch. And like someone said above, so much of my template to this day consists of EWQLSO - that may be the best investment I ever made. Just today I was going through all my string options for a violin line, and lo and behold, the best sounding option for that track was LASS.

So yeah, it would take a massive leap forward in ergonomics/ease-of-use to get me to spend any more money. Between HS, LASS, CSS, CSSS, Spitfire, Joshua Bell, and Symphobia for effects, there’s little to nothing I can’t do. What a great “problem” to have


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## Darren Durann (Jan 10, 2018)

I do have what I need...but I have to be come out a bit here: i know as much as anyone that getting new libraries can be fantastically inspiring. After buying the SF Bernard Herrmann Toolkit upon release, the rest of 2017 for me was pretty much spent using it. Inspiration+ actual material for my third symphony, not to mention my Concerto no. 1, came directly from that Toolkit. It was a wonderful surprise when I first learned about it, as obviously guys like Herrmann and Rozsa and Alfred Newman are tops for me.

I remember when I first got both the Albion One and Legacy I really felt inspired to sketch like crazy. The hall(s?) those libraries were recorded in go so well together for sketches imo. You can get a very good sound, because you won't be worried about having to mix it in with a dry library, or one that sounds a lot like a whole different room...or hall.

Same with when I first bought Iceni, Albion IV, the Hein woodwinds and violin.

So I finally came clean: I can be a ridiculous consumer too lol!


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## Quantum Leap (Jan 17, 2018)

Heroix said:


> i think there will be always someone like alex wallbank coming out of nowhere with a new kickass library and there is still plenty of room for improvement.
> 
> i also think there are alot of developers which want to make some easy and fast money (hello eastwest) and hype their libs a bit too much.



Don’t confuse East West’s business strategies with the products themselves. When we really jumped into the orchestral market and made EWQLSO, we did everything humanly possible to make a great product in the one week of recording time the hall granted us. We hired a rockstar engineer and we worked 7 - 16 hour days in a row. We made good use of every second we had. We far outsold Vienna who had millions and the Viennese government financing them. Do you know how difficult that was? We managed that because we had some real love for what we were doing, and some experience in film music. Same goes for most of the products. When a company is willing to truly invest in a product, the composer benefits. Many here cheer loudly for libraries that were created on a small budget. That doesn’t make them superior. Often it’s the opposite. I applaud all efforts and flavors, but you really don’t want to discourage those that have the resources to make something grander. And of course support the little guy as well. Some of the low budget libraries are amazing!! For the Hollywood series, we went all out. You are a fool to condemn that kind of dedication. It’s all blood sweat tears and money. It doesn’t matter if there are dark rumors and uncomfortable truths out there about a company. Millions hate Apple and Microsoft. It’s mostly all BS. This forum went nuts over Cinesamples in spite of the fact that Hollywood Brass was a far superior product with ten times as many samples. One day of recording couldn’t compete with what we did. I mean, I even brought in Thomas Bergersen to make sure that it was the bomb. I gave away half my income just for the little bit of extra sauce and genius. That’s not greed my friends. Going balls to the wall doesn’t make us evil. 3 years of work isn’t fast money. We deserved the success we got with the Hollywood Series. If it weren’t for PLAY being not up to the gargantuan task of a million samples, the response would have been even better. (It actually is now, by the way, only took 8 Years!) And as far as hype goes, Well just look at what Cinesamples did with their one day of recording. Same goes for some of the other developers, with notable exceptions like Project Sam. So in response to the post I quoted above, you are 100% dead wrong. It is the polar opposite. Do you know what I went through to create SD3? You wouldn’t believe me if I told you, but it did involve filling an 18 wheeler with 1000 dusty, lsd coated percussion instruments and driving it down from the Bay Area. Spending 4 days straight with Mickey Hart, who sleeps one hour at a time and then works for 6 straight. His assistant almost had a nervous breakdown and the engineer quit mid session. Just convincing him to do it was almost impossible. He only did it because of the world class studio we have. After SD2, we had to do something epic. Our recent choir library attempts to achieve something insanely difficult to pull off. It is a huge accomplishment. People complain that they may have to tweak the words. It makes me smile. Do you realize how much work it is to write for and record a real choir?? I do it all the time and it’s a ton of work. I know how all this resentment was born and many are to blame, including us, but some of you have gotten lost in all of this. Tons of great tools out there. You can do almost anything with what’s available now. It’s is indeed a time of diminishing returns, so don’t hate those that are willing to spend real money and effort on new projects. Its like voting for people that actually make your life worse.


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## Dietz (Jan 18, 2018)

Here we go again .... *sigh* ... just when everybody thought that this ridiculous, old, unilateral enviousness had finally passed.



Quantum Leap said:


> [...] We far outsold Vienna who had millions and the Viennese government financing them. [...] Its like voting for people that actually make your life worse.



Please try to live up to your last sentence and stop spreading fake news.

VSL started with literally nothing, not with "millions". "Governmental financing" is simply wrong; the concept of concerted governmental aid is something you seemingly can't grasp from your US-biased POV, without understanding the tax system, the economics and the ethics of a social democratic European city in the 21st century. I assume you will call this "communism", or something like that. 

BTW: Herb still rides his bicycle to get himself to the studio (at least as long as there's no snow on the streets ... ). It seems as VSL constantly misses the "rockstar" target, that's true.


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## DS_Joost (Jan 18, 2018)

Heroix said:


> i think there will be always someone like alex wallbank coming out of nowhere with a new kickass library and there is still plenty of room for improvement.
> 
> i also think there are alot of developers which want to make some easy and fast money (hello eastwest) and hype their libs a bit too much.



I also want to chime in on this. Yes, EastWest hypes their products. Why? Because they need to sell. There is nothing wrong with that.

In fact, the hate for EastWest and their products, and everything they do, is becoming comical. What more do these guys need to do for members of this forum to stop hating them? You can buy their flagship orchestral library for 599 in a sale. Five-Frickin-Ninety-Nine?! This is one of the most complete (of not the most complete), deep sampled, articulation rich, fantastic sounding, flexible and inspiring libraries out there. For, again: 5-9-9!

Some companies keep charging those prices for half developed, bug ridden, and incomplete libraries (*cough Spitfire cough*), and yet, people seem to adore them because they have 'muh AIR sound'. Sorry to sound so denigrating but I'm embarrassed by the sheep mentality of some people on this forum. Just because some outspoken members have a completely stupid grudge against a company, a person or a sampler, doesn't mean the product is not good. Listen with your own ears. If you don't, your loss.

Then there is the blatant hate for Play. I'm going to tell you guys something: yes, Play used to be buggy and slow. But for the last two years, Play has been updated, refined and has actually become better than Kontakt when it comes to loading times and stability. It loads a 1.5 gig 1st VLN Legato patch in under 3 seconds. Kontakt takes longer, for half the memory on the same drive. I cannot remember the last time Play crashed on me, when at the same time, Native Instruments seem to destabilize their sampler with every single update they put out. And don't get me started about removing perfect features in return for far inferior ones (adding a library? Native Access? Bugger off with that stuff. Where is my button to just add a library? Oh, I've moved it to another drive. Well good look with adding that buddy). But since Native Instruments have an iron grip on the sampler world, they can do nothing wrong. Well, I'll tell you, if everything moved to Falcon tomorrow, I would throw a party to celebrate that, because it's a much more capable sampler than anything ever released.

And to get back to hyping your product. Your beloved Spitfire is sending out emails, sketchy advertising, dumping the commercial threads with hype after hype after hype every single week, and you say nothing about that? Now that's a company that needs to be put back into place. It gets very tiresome coming on this forum and seeing nothing but Spitfire, Spitfire, Spitfire and more Spitfire.

Yes, Spitfire has great products. Also a lot of mediocre ones, or products sold for premium prices that seem chopped up from a greater product that could've easily been sold as a whole. How many EVOs, Albions and Olafur Arnald libraries do we need?

I have Albion One. I deeply regret buying it, not because it sounds bad, but I've constantly got the feeling that it's almost complete. Almost. Just buy another Albion to complement it so you get the articulations that you miss, after which you can buy another Albion because that has just gotten that articulation that you'd need to get that emotion across. All for a premium price of course. And until you do, they will send you dozens of emails a year and flood the forums with advertising with yet another HZ perc library, this time not the big drums, not the solos, but Hans Zimmer's personal hand performance on his car desk whilst driving the LA highways. Which will of course get another expansion with two more microphone positions and a mix by Junkie XL. For just 299. Gotta keep up with those releases guys!

To clarify: nothing against HZ and JXL. I love them. Just used it to get a point across.

Edit: I have nothing against Spitfire and the people working there. I just used it to point out some glaring bias of this forum against some companies, and the blind love for others.


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## Ashermusic (Jan 18, 2018)

Nick probably should have left naming other companies out of it, but I totally believe in the his sincerity and passion and dedication that he has brought to his sampling, and his composing. He raised the bar for all the others to shoot for and few have been in his league.


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## NoamL (Jan 18, 2018)

bigcat1969 said:


> Actually the midi look ahead question was one of my first when I started 'making' instruments as it seemed like such and obvious feature. I was and am stunned that it doesn't exist.



You can see why it will likely never happen: DAWs would need an "ingest MIDI" feature where all the MIDI information in the entire session is sent to Kontakt the moment playback starts. Kontakt would have to hold onto the MIDI, figure out all the prerolls on a sample by sample basis, and send back audio at the right times.

It's a pipe dream. No sample library dev is going to make a wholly lookahead-dependent library until Kontakt creates the protocol. Kontakt won't act because it would have to get all the DAWs on board at the same time.

Also, no offense, but most users are unsmart and prefer "instant playability & response." (which has nothing to do with real acoustic instruments) You see it on this forum all the time. So Kontakt and the DAWs are not going to implement a "feature" that actually takes users _away_ from the instant-MIDI-keyboard-response paradigm. The library that came the closest to breaking free of it, CSS, apparently has fielded endless tech-support headaches and "I like everything but..." reviews because people don't even understand how to program negative delay.

EDIT: to add - I think the articulation switching problem (which has led to most music using consistent articulations for long periods of time, such as endless spiccato ostinatos, instead of articualtion-mixing musical figures like pre-MIDI-composing) is mostly a preroll problem.


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## Darren Durann (Jan 18, 2018)

Sample libraries seems to be becoming a collector's market. This part of the forum reminds me a lot of such forums I've frequented before: the "getting" of something seems to be the main goal (even if some folks just don't like admitting to it).

There can be a certain amount of exhilaration in buying, especially when you feel you're getting state of the art stuff that, when/if-ever you decide to learn something about actual composition, harmony, counterpoint, instrumentation, might be very helpful. And hey, when/if you lose interest (or you go into a 3rd mortgage over it), you can always chalk it up to a "phase".

Not to meant to be cynical or demeaning to anyone in the slightest.


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## Sears Poncho (Jan 18, 2018)

DS_Joost said:


> In fact, the hate for EastWest and their products, and everything they do, is becoming comical. What more do these guys need to do for members of this forum to stop hating them?



Well, your post certainly didn't help. When you say crap like "your beloved Spitfire" and put down and disparage other products, do you actually think that's helping? Because...wow. 

I don't own any E/W products, nor do I have any opinion on them. But when posts like yours are made, I certainly don't feel warm and fuzzy about the company.


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## Casiquire (Jan 18, 2018)

Nick Phoenix is very passionate and that's great, it has lead to some fantastic sounding libraries. But as far as I'm concerned the issue with EW isn't "hype", it's a whole atmosphere of disregard for existing customers and support for products. There are still intervals in Symphonic Choirs that are unplayable with portamento active, particularly in the tenors; Hollywood Brass, despite being one of their best products, still has a totally unusable Playable Runs patch for 2 french horns in the Gold edition even though I submitted a ticket about it literally years ago. Even the forums adopted some of this toxic attitude toward customers at one point maybe three years ago which all turned me off enough to walk away from them as a developer.

Anyway though things might be stagnating at the moment but that's no sign of what the future holds. There's still a ton that I want to do that libraries can't do, and technology is still only improving.


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## Darren Durann (Jan 18, 2018)

Sears Poncho said:


> Well, your post certainly didn't help. When you say crap like "your beloved Spitfire" and put down and disparage other products, do you actually think that's helping? Because...wow.
> 
> I don't own any E/W products, nor do I have any opinion on them. But when posts like yours are made, I certainly don't feel warm and fuzzy about the company.



I don't think that's a good reason to keep you from trying out their wares. Nobody's opinion should be influencing your decisions in that regard. But I could be wrong.


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## Rodney Money (Jan 18, 2018)

Quantum Leap said:


> Don’t confuse East West’s business strategies with the products themselves. When we really jumped into the orchestral market and made EWQLSO, we did everything humanly possible to make a great product in the one week of recording time the hall granted us. We hired a rockstar engineer and we worked 7 - 16 hour days in a row. We made good use of every second we had. We far outsold Vienna who had millions and the Viennese government financing them. Do you know how difficult that was? We managed that because we had some real love for what we were doing, and some experience in film music. Same goes for most of the products. When a company is willing to truly invest in a product, the composer benefits. Many here cheer loudly for libraries that were created on a small budget. That doesn’t make them superior. Often it’s the opposite. I applaud all efforts and flavors, but you really don’t want to discourage those that have the resources to make something grander. And of course support the little guy as well. Some of the low budget libraries are amazing!! For the Hollywood series, we went all out. You are a fool to condemn that kind of dedication. It’s all blood sweat tears and money. It doesn’t matter if there are dark rumors and uncomfortable truths out there about a company. Millions hate Apple and Microsoft. It’s mostly all BS. This forum went nuts over Cinesamples in spite of the fact that Hollywood Brass was a far superior product with ten times as many samples. One day of recording couldn’t compete with what we did. I mean, I even brought in Thomas Bergersen to make sure that it was the bomb. I gave away half my income just for the little bit of extra sauce and genius. That’s not greed my friends. Going balls to the wall doesn’t make us evil. 3 years of work isn’t fast money. We deserved the success we got with the Hollywood Series. If it weren’t for PLAY being not up to the gargantuan task of a million samples, the response would have been even better. (It actually is now, by the way, only took 8 Years!) And as far as hype goes, Well just look at what Cinesamples did with their one day of recording. Same goes for some of the other developers, with notable exceptions like Project Sam. So in response to the post I quoted above, you are 100% dead wrong. It is the polar opposite. Do you know what I went through to create SD3? You wouldn’t believe me if I told you, but it did involve filling an 18 wheeler with 1000 dusty, lsd coated percussion instruments and driving it down from the Bay Area. Spending 4 days straight with Mickey Hart, who sleeps one hour at a time and then works for 6 straight. His assistant almost had a nervous breakdown and the engineer quit mid session. Just convincing him to do it was almost impossible. He only did it because of the world class studio we have. After SD2, we had to do something epic. Our recent choir library attempts to achieve something insanely difficult to pull off. It is a huge accomplishment. People complain that they may have to tweak the words. It makes me smile. Do you realize how much work it is to write for and record a real choir?? I do it all the time and it’s a ton of work. I know how all this resentment was born and many are to blame, including us, but some of you have gotten lost in all of this. Tons of great tools out there. You can do almost anything with what’s available now. It’s is indeed a time of diminishing returns, so don’t hate those that are willing to spend real money and effort on new projects. Its like voting for people that actually make your life worse.


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## Sears Poncho (Jan 18, 2018)

Darren Durann said:


> I don't think that's a good reason to keep you from trying out their wares. Nobody's opinion should be influencing your decisions in that regard. But I could be wrong.



Agreed. There are lots of excellent choices out there though. I tend to support "The company" as well as the product. Most of the companies I've purchased from have been beyond polite, helpful if needed, etc. I feel good supporting them. And I will continue to support them, and it's not just a product I am purchasing.


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## Ashermusic (Jan 18, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> here are still intervals in Symphonic Choirs that are unplayable with portamento active, particularly in the tenors; Hollywood Brass, despite being one of their best products, still has a totally unusable Playable Runs patch for 2 french horns in the Gold edition even though I submitted a ticket about it literally years ago. Even the forums adopted some of this toxic attitude toward customers at one point maybe three years ago which all turned me off enough to walk away from them as a developer.



Yes and of course the competition's equally large libraries are all glitch free or all problems were corrected. I have read that repeatedly here. (Where is the eyeroll emoji when I need it?)


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## DS_Joost (Jan 18, 2018)

Sears Poncho said:


> Well, your post certainly didn't help. When you say crap like "your beloved Spitfire" and put down and disparage other products, do you actually think that's helping? Because...wow.
> 
> I don't own any E/W products, nor do I have any opinion on them. But when posts like yours are made, I certainly don't feel warm and fuzzy about the company.



First of all, I have no affiliation with EastWest whatsoever. I don't know if you thought that, but it's important to know because my opinion isn't EastWest's. So don't hold my opinion on that company. My opinion says nothing about EastWest as a company, but how I myself view them.

Second, I used Spitfire because that was the best example of the bias on this forum towards certain developers. People lay things on EastWest that are just as bad, or in the case of hype generation, worse with others. But somehow they always seem to get a pass. On the subject of customer care, or support, I have been helped greatly by EW's support as well.

Every company has faults. No doubt about that, and we should be critical about them. We shouldn't, however, lay on one company what we don't on others. That's called being hypocritical. And there are a lot of hypocritical people here.

If you want my opinion on this topic: yes, we really are in the realm of diminishing returns. I've yet to find an orchestral library that beats the Hollywood Orchestra in terms of realism and flexibility. The only thing I can think of, is better programming. The problem is that flexibility, realism and playability is a complex and difficult mix of things. It's clear that it's almost impossible to have all three at equal levels, and I don't think we'll get there in a long time. It's not an and/and situation, but more either/or. Realism and tweakability inevitably comes with complexity. Playability and accessibility inevitably comes with less tweakability and in most cases also realism.

The big strides in terms of sampling have been made. The future lies in the programming.


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## Quantum Leap (Jan 18, 2018)

Dietz said:


> Here we go again .... *sigh* ... just when everybody thought that this ridiculous, old, unilateral enviousness had finally passed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dietz, Once again you prove how different you are from Herb. I apologize if what I said about VSL was rude. Wasn’t thinking. I am one of the majority here in the US that want that cancerous donkey $hit in the whitehouse removed kicking and screaming. My wife is from Germany and I was just in Vienna. I am a fan. There is nothing wrong with the financing you guys received. It was scary for us as a developer to show up at NAMM and realize what we were up against way back then. But VSL did miss the rockstar target. You could have buried all of us if your original recordings sounded better. I do envy you guys as a company, except for you and your pit bull role.


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## thereus (Jan 18, 2018)

Quantum Leap said:


> Dietz, Once again you prove how different you are from Herb. I apologize if what I said about VSL was rude. Wasn’t thinking. I am one of the majority here in the US that want that cancerous donkey $hit in the whitehouse removed kicking and screaming. My wife is from Germany and I was just in Vienna. I am a fan. There is nothing wrong with the financing you guys received. It was scary for us as a developer to show up at NAMM and realize what we were up against way back then. But VSL did miss the rockstar target. You could have buried all of us if your original recordings sounded better. I do envy you guys as a company, except for you and your pit bull role.


Oh dear


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## Darren Durann (Jan 18, 2018)

Ashermusic said:


> Yes and of course the competition's equally large libraries are all glitch free or all problems were corrected. I have read that repeatedly here. (Where is the eyeroll emoji when I need it?)



Tina Fey owns!


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## Ashermusic (Jan 18, 2018)

Darren Durann said:


> Tina Fey owns!




LOL!


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## gsilbers (Jan 18, 2018)

oh this thread is priceless..


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## blougui (Jan 18, 2018)

Darren Durann said:


> Sample libraries seems to be becoming a collector's market. This part of the forum reminds me a lot of such forums I've frequented before: the "getting" of something seems to be the main goal (even if some folks just don't like admitting to it).
> 
> There can be a certain amount of exhilaration in buying, especially when you feel you're getting state of the art stuff that, when/if-ever you decide to learn something about actual composition, harmony, counterpoint, instrumentation, might be very helpful. And hey, when/if you lose interest (or you go into a 3rd mortgage over it), you can always chalk it up to a "phase".
> 
> Not to meant to be cynical or demeaning to anyone in the slightest.


I must say I kind of agree with you.
Partly because I come from other products forum - hardware synth, board games, photographic APN...


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## gsilbers (Jan 18, 2018)

Rodney Money said:


>



this cracked me up! lol.


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## NoamL (Jan 18, 2018)

thereus said:


> Oh dear



I was all ready to like that post until the last couple lines :\

As for EW vs Spitfire, I've received 28 marketing emails from SA in the past three months, 7 from EastWest. Also, PLAY might have been a mistake, but in the state it is now, it finally works as well as Kontakt at least for me. The only pain with is it is having the dumb iLok plugged in; but otherwise there is no reason not to try their libraries especially with the great Cloud offer. 

But IMO EastWest and VSL have faced some great competition from newer developers. Some parts of EW's catalog still hold up (the 6 French Horns from Hollywood Brass! OMG).


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## Casiquire (Jan 18, 2018)

Ashermusic said:


> Yes and of course the competition's equally large libraries are all glitch free or all problems were corrected. I have read that repeatedly here. (Where is the eyeroll emoji when I need it?)



I never said that. However out of the many VSLs I own, I can't think of any patch that's entirely unusable from start to finish for six years or however long HB has been out. Can't think of any intervals in Embertone's intimate strings that can't make their way into a final mix. And I can overlook a small developer that can't keep up with every little detail and glitch, but if they were to also start blocking forum users at the slightest criticism, I'd be out. I'm consistent like that!


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## Phillip (Jan 18, 2018)

The returns are diminishing if you are after increasing realism. Otherwise, a lot f interesting things are happening in the field.


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## novaburst (Jan 19, 2018)

StevenOBrien said:


> I think sampling is a dead end. Physical modelling is capable of doing SO much more than current offerings, but nobody is really pushing it to its limits yet either in terms of realism, or in terms of making it as easy to program as a sample library.



Not so sure about this statement, better mics better recording equipment, better halls, better performance, this is all you can do especially when it comes to orhcestral samples, some library's have been around for a long time but they are still sound great and are preferred to use because of that sound and tone. East west, VSL, 8dio some of there early library's are very hard to beat.

Getting accustom with your sample library, I guess the more you use it the easier it gets.

What are we looking for when we are using sample library's or doing muckups.

When we listen to a live performance that is performed well we say that was a great performance but if you wanted to you can just as easy listen and focus on the mistakes that the orchestra made and I guarantee you can find many, but a great performance gets us to focus on the musical piece.

And its the same as sample library's what do we do when we are listening to a mock-up are we just focusing on how bad the articulations sound or how bad the hall is or how bad the famous leggatos sound, because if you just focus on these things you will never hear a great library or a great mockup piece you will just hear mistakes.

I think orhcestral library's have come a long way, and when put together well in a mock-up you don't hear the strings or horns or percussion, you hear a great performance as a whole.

Orhcestral library's have really become a part of the music world to the point they no longer need to be in the background.

I think the issue of this age we are in is we have become so critical to the point we want perfectness way way way beyond our capabilities any little mistake is enough to bring down the whole library.

We offten forget what the library is there for, it's not there to just be critical about, it's there to be used, and I think if we use our sample library's more we will become less and less critical about them.


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## Sears Poncho (Jan 19, 2018)

Phillip said:


> The returns are diminishing if you are after increasing realism.


I'm a symphony musician. Yesterday, after spending several hours working with vsts, I went to rehearsal. Not even close.  Hearing an excellent cello section from across the stage is worlds apart from hearing a vst. One of the reasons: there were 10 personalities over there, regardless of the noble attempt to "play as a section". One's real into it, one's emoting, one is playing it safe. The young ones are hyper, the older ones have played this piece for 30 years and can lay it down cold, on and on. Can't do that yet with vst.


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## Ashermusic (Jan 19, 2018)

Sears Poncho said:


> I'm a symphony musician. Yesterday, after spending several hours working with vsts, I went to rehearsal. Not even close.  Hearing an excellent cello section from across the stage is worlds apart from hearing a vst. One of the reasons: there were 10 personalities over there, regardless of the noble attempt to "play as a section". One's real into it, one's emoting, one is playing it safe. The young ones are hyper, the older ones have played this piece for 30 years and can lay it down cold, on and on. Can't do that yet with vst.



Yep. And I for one am glad.


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## Voider (Jan 19, 2018)

Lee Blaske said:


> It just seems to me that a number of the products we had been awaiting from major developers that have recently been released are not the game changers some of us thought they might be.



Use decent SFX plugins in an innovative way, program your own patches - the innovations, the game changer starts with you, not with them. Nothing that comes from factory delivered to everyone will be a game changer because everyone is using it. If you want something very special, you gotta create it yourself.


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## Darren Durann (Jan 19, 2018)

Hans Zimmer said it himself (forgive me as this is a paraphrase): "...there's no such thing as an orchestra at your fingertips". No library, or set of, can be anywhere near as wonderfully edgy, powerful, subtle as a live orchestra.

I do have to hand it to technology though. In the past decade I've been able to play mock ups for regular, casual listeners and most of them were convinced it was a real orchestral recording. The people who weren't fooled were the pick-everything-apart type of people who seem to have found a home here, and of course conductors, orchestral musicians...library programmers.

I should mention, when I played abovementioned mock ups, the most easily fooled were people in the Pop (and I include Rock, Metal, Country, Rap, etc in that category) music world. Anyone who played an orchestral instrument, conducted or had their compositions played in concerts, etc, at best would praise how good the mock up was done. They knew, and that's the way it not only should but probably will always be. An orchestra is an orchestra, don't fool yourself or anyone else pretending you're "100%" natural sounding, because trust me...you aren't.


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## robgb (Jan 19, 2018)

Sears Poncho said:


> When you say crap like "your beloved Spitfire" and put down and disparage other products, do you actually think that's helping? Because...wow.


While I agree his comment was a bit over the top, he does have a point about this place being full of Spitfire fan boys, some of whom are ready to jump on anyone who mentions VSL or 8Dio or East West. I have some Spitfire libraries and I just started using some East West stuff, and I honestly don't get the hate. I think their Composer Cloud is a pretty brilliant idea, and wish Spitfire would consider doing something similar. Oh, and to my ears, Hollywood strings sounds every bit as good (or, frankly, better) as the strings on, say, Albion One, so I'm not sure why Spitfire gets all the love... EW may have older libraries, but they are by no means lesser, and I think too many people get wrapped up in branding, like the old Mac v PC nonsense.


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## robgb (Jan 19, 2018)

Voider said:


> Use decent SFX plugins in an innovative way, program your own patches - the innovations, the game changer starts with you, not with them. Nothing that comes from factory delivered to everyone will be a game changer because everyone is using it. If you want something very special, you gotta create it yourself.


Or you can take what the factory delivered and tweak the hell out of it until it becomes "yours."



Darren Durann said:


> In the past decade I've been able to play mock ups for regular, casual listeners and most of them were convinced it was a real orchestral recording.



A point I try to make regularly. Are we composing for other composers or for the average listener (or director... )?


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## Alex Fraser (Jan 19, 2018)

robgb said:


> While I agree his comment was a bit over the top, he does have a point about this place being full of Spitfire fan boys, some of whom are ready to jump on anyone who mentions VSL or 8Dio or East West.


How ridiculous. I'm offended. Just because I like Spitfire stuff, it doesn't mean I'm a "fan boy."

Sure, maybe I make my family watch Paul's walkthrough videos and create Olafur Arnalds fan art.
And maybe I've spent too long on planning my pilgrimage to Air Studios.
And maybe spending three days on Google maps, trying to work out where Christian Henson lived from his videos wasn't time well spent...

But that doesn't make me a "Fan Boy."


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## Casiquire (Jan 19, 2018)

robgb said:


> While I agree his comment was a bit over the top, he does have a point about this place being full of Spitfire fan boys, some of whom are ready to jump on anyone who mentions VSL or 8Dio or East West. I have some Spitfire libraries and I just started using some East West stuff, and I honestly don't get the hate. I think their Composer Cloud is a pretty brilliant idea, and wish Spitfire would consider doing something similar. Oh, and to my ears, Hollywood strings sounds every bit as good (or, frankly, better) as the strings on, say, Albion One, so I'm not sure why Spitfire gets all the love... EW may have older libraries, but they are by no means lesser, and I think too many people get wrapped up in branding, like the old Mac v PC nonsense.



I agree, some of the Hollywood series is wonderful in sound. And you're right that this forum is pretty Spitfire obsessed! Lol


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## Darren Durann (Jan 19, 2018)

I like Spitfire libraries, a couple of them a LOT (look at my avatar and you'll guess). However, Rob has a point.

The BHOT was the first SF library that made me realize just how uncomfortably wet SF libraries are in general. In comparison to so many of their products, the dryness of BHOT really stands out as something one can work into other libraries, the room sound otherwise is just a real bitch to sit in a mix.

I've heard LCO has a similarly dry and somewhat interestingly niche thing going for it, so I probably will make that my last SF purchase for a while. That could change should they put out more friendly-to-working-with-other-libraries products.


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## robgb (Jan 19, 2018)

Darren Durann said:


> I've heard LCO has a similarly dry and somewhat interestingly niche thing going for it, so I probably will make that my last SF purchase for a while.


I almost pulled the trigger on it when it was in my wish list, but decided do I REALLY need another string library?

By the way, I've used Acon Deverberate to take out some of the wetness from Albion One, but once I did I realized the strings sound like any other strings...  Maybe Air studios is really all they have going for them. LOL.


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## Darren Durann (Jan 19, 2018)

robgb said:


> By the way, I've used Acon Deverberate to take out some of the wetness from Albion One, but once I did I realized the strings sound like any other strings...  Maybe Air studios is really all they have going for them. LOL.



I do really like the AIR sound, but it just sticks to some of their stuff like glue. I've had some headaches integrating Iceni into mixes which feature other, drier libraries. Shit, that goes for all the other Albions as well, though IV seems to be more...I guess "objective" might fit here.


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## Darren Durann (Jan 19, 2018)

robgb said:


> I almost pulled the trigger on it when it was in my wish list, but decided do I REALLY need another string library?



One of the things that stops me is how I've come so far in manipulating Hollywood Strings to my will. It took a loooooong time to get a great workflow going, but today I can do so much and so much more expeditiously even when just sticking to that. When I consider another library, I always keep in mind my imperative to learn the library inside and out (I'm a big believer in getting all you can get out of a sample library which means a lot of manual time).

The last time I punked out my will was on the abovementioned BHOT, but that was an essential purchase for me anyway, given my adoration of that era of film music. But in general, it takes time to learn libraries through and through, and if the buyer isn't learning how to exploit it to his or her best advantage, then that's pretty sad. These libraries aren't cheap, so I do hope people aren't cheating themselves when it comes to learning to use what they bought to their best capabilities.


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## Sears Poncho (Jan 19, 2018)

Sears Poncho said:


> I'm a symphony musician. Yesterday, after spending several hours working with vsts, I went to rehearsal. Not even close.



We rehearsed a piano concerto tonight. Yeah, piano vsts aren't close either.  When sampling one note at a time, well, the sound doesn't really work like that. A dense passage in a hall sounds like a carnival, it's 3-dimensional. Someone needs to invent "polyphonic sampling" that would sample many notes together, because it sounds different than individual notes played at the same time.

As for the orchestra- I wish developers and enthusiasts could sit in the orchestra for a rehearsal. It's the "noises" that stick out- harmonics whistle, e strings ring and stand out. The concept of "ethereal angelic harps" is funny, harps are big noisy mothers.  There's 80 people, it's noisy. Valves and keys clicking and fingers hitting strings and even feet shuffling. Chairs moving, music stands being bumped, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria!


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## Casiquire (Jan 19, 2018)

I do have to say though, sort of closer to the original topic, I don't think Spitfire is one of the companies doing anything truly outside the norm. We're seeing some minor innovations mainly in playability at the moment and Spitfire, EWQL,VSL, etc, haven't even come to that level yet. Spitfire and EWQL have arguably come out with some of the most well-recorded and best out-of-the-box sounding libraries instead.


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## Casiquire (Jan 19, 2018)

Sears Poncho said:


> We rehearsed a piano concerto tonight. Yeah, piano vsts aren't close either.  When sampling one note at a time, well, the sound doesn't really work like that. A dense passage in a hall sounds like a carnival, it's 3-dimensional. Someone needs to invent "polyphonic sampling" that would sample many notes together, because it sounds different than individual notes played at the same time.



This is where modeled pianos come in! Can't get enough of Pianoteq, and sure it has a long way to go to perfection, but it takes what you're talking about fully into account.


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## Sears Poncho (Jan 19, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> This is where modeled pianos come in! Can't get enough of Pianoteq, and sure it has a long way to go to perfection, but it takes what you're talking about fully into account.


Does Pianoteq still have a demo? I tried it several years ago, I think it was version 2 or 3 at the time. I'm sure it's come a long way.

EDIT: They do have a demo, I will check it out.


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## Casiquire (Jan 19, 2018)

Sears Poncho said:


> Does Pianoteq still have a demo? I tried it several years ago, I think it was version 2 or 3 at the time. I'm sure it's come a long way.



My understanding is you can use it at any time, not time-limited, but not all notes can be played. Also make sure that whatever you do, you turn the Condition slider down to some 75 or so, maybe even lower to taste. The sound is far too precise and clean by default and that's a quick way to add some realistic grit.

As I mentioned it's not 100%, but I counter-intuitively find it a more natural sound than many sampled libraries due to its treatment of resonance and the way that you never hear the "same sample" twice.


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## Sears Poncho (Jan 19, 2018)

8 notes are disabled (silent): F#1, G#1, A#1, C#5, D#5, F#5, G#5 and A#5.


I can still play "Heart and Soul" then!


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## Casiquire (Jan 19, 2018)

The new Steinways sound nice but I wouldn't miss the Bleuthner either, the resonance is beautiful. I even turn it up a bit from the default.

Arturia sounds fantastic also, though I've never used it myself.


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## robgb (Jan 20, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> Arturia sounds fantastic also, though I've never used it myself.


I own it and love it.


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## Jerry Growl (Jan 20, 2018)

I wonder if it already exists and I just did not find it:
For string libraries I still anticipate a library that can offer expressive x-fading patches that go from 'clean, steady' regular sounds morphed towards a more unsteady, bewildered and incoherent playing (blurred slurs, blurred attacks, irregular vibrato, slight tuning 'problems' towards the extreme end) to increase further emotional expression &realism

O, but that already exists, there is Spitfire LCO​
Yes, and it sounds really ok for a chamber section... it's just they're pretty hard to fit in to other libraries. You can't just put them a bit to back another group of strings. You can't replace your regular strings with them. It's not quite ideal

So something like Spitfire LCO's set of articulations, but from within regular orchestral string sections and possibly with extended layer steps x-fading from clean to overly expressive (not so nice sounding by itself, but to throw them in when things get hot) MA3 has crossfades to clusters. That's good. But I think I mean crossfades to 'unclean' expressivo performance by string players.

So to deliberately sound less clean & tight & fancy & well mannered (as most libraries) when called for. Not per se to the extreme, but why not go a bit further while you' re at it.


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## Darren Durann (Jan 20, 2018)

Jerry Growl said:


> I wonder if it already exists and I just did not find it:
> For string libraries I still anticipate a library that can offer expressive x-fading patches that go from 'clean, steady' regular sounds morphed towards a more unsteady, bewildered and incoherent playing (blurred slurs, blurred attacks, irregular vibrato, slight tuning 'problems' towards the extreme end) to increase further emotional expression &realism
> 
> O, but that already exists, there is Spitfire LCO​
> ...



I owe you an extreme thanks for providing specifics re: LCO. I didn't know that. I thought because they were recorded purportedly dry they'd play well with others.


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## Casiquire (Jan 20, 2018)

Sounds a bit like LASS aleatoric patches to me.

http://audiobro.com/lass-2-0-aleatoric-instruments-tutorial/


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## Pianolando (Jan 20, 2018)

I think that we (sound wise) really have been in the diminishing returns zone since Hollywood orchestra was released, and when was that...2012-2015 or something? If I listen to some of those demos, they are definitely up to par with anything released today, at least to my ears.

Prices has decreased a lot since then, engines are better, more user friendly and less buggy, sound of other major releases has been different and sometimes arguably better but I don’t think by a big margin and more different than better. Maybe we even have been in this zone since Vienna’s Special Edition, which was very reasonably priced back in the day and sounded pretty great. Sure, today’s releases are better...but not THAT much better.

Just my 2c.

EDIT: my reasoning is only valid for general orchestral use, special instruments and even solo strings are still improved on imo.


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## kitekrazy (Jan 21, 2018)

robgb said:


> While I agree his comment was a bit over the top, he does have a point about this place being full of Spitfire fan boys, some of whom are ready to jump on anyone who mentions VSL or 8Dio or East West. I have some Spitfire libraries and I just started using some East West stuff, and I honestly don't get the hate. I think their Composer Cloud is a pretty brilliant idea, and wish Spitfire would consider doing something similar. Oh, and to my ears, Hollywood strings sounds every bit as good (or, frankly, better) as the strings on, say, Albion One, so I'm not sure why Spitfire gets all the love... EW may have older libraries, but they are by no means lesser, and I think too many people get wrapped up in branding, like the old Mac v PC nonsense.



Sad how we treat software like they are religions.


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## novaburst (Jan 21, 2018)

robgb said:


> this place being full of Spitfire fan boys, some of whom are ready to jump on anyone who mentions VSL



VSL........... anyone


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## Casiquire (Jan 21, 2018)

novaburst said:


> VSL........... anyone



MY SPITFIRE EATS IT FOR BREAKFAST


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## Jerry Growl (Jan 22, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> Sounds a bit like LASS aleatoric patches to me.
> 
> http://audiobro.com/lass-2-0-aleatoric-instruments-tutorial/


Thanks. Sounds really interesting. Isn't going to work in fast string parts, but for slow parts this comes really close to what I was looking for!


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## Casiquire (Jan 22, 2018)

Jerry Growl said:


> Thanks. Sounds really interesting. Isn't going to work in fast string parts, but for slow parts this comes really close to what I was looking for!



Yeah I'm not sure where to go for fast! My best bet would be libraries with many sections so that you can custom detune a lot of different moving parts.


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## CGR (Jan 23, 2018)

Sears Poncho said:


> dogs and cats living together


Ahhh, a Bill Murray fan I see.


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## Rodney Money (Jan 23, 2018)

Just for my own personal clarity, Quantum Leap is East West and Ionian is VSL, correct?


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## blougui (Jan 23, 2018)

Yes Rodney.


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## Cryptyc (Jan 24, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> To address the OP - quite possibly. The rate of progress has slowed, for sure.
> But to flip the question around a little....how many musicians and composers can actually use their DAWs and libraries to maximum effect? I'd suggest that in many cases, it's us - the composers - who need to catch up..



^x1000.

Take the time to learn your libraries inside and out, and that should keep you plenty busy.

I look forward to Tari's Libraries the most


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## kitekrazy (Jan 25, 2018)

Cryptyc said:


> ^x1000.
> 
> *Take the time to learn your libraries inside and out, and that should keep you plenty busy.*
> 
> I look forward to Tari's Libraries the most



That should be taken even when a beginner gets Kontakt. There are some gems in there and for a beginner the orchestra should be a great start.


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## Cryptyc (Jan 26, 2018)

kitekrazy said:


> That should be taken even when a beginner gets Kontakt. There are some gems in there and for a beginner the orchestra should be a great start.



Indeed. Kontakt has some real nice stuff in there


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## shapednoise (Mar 14, 2018)

DS_Joost said:


> I also want to chime in on this. Yes, EastWest hypes their products. Why? Because they need to sell. There is nothing wrong with that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hans does not drive.


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## Shubus (Mar 15, 2018)

Arbee said:


> Perhaps we'll reach a point of technical complexity where it is just simpler and cheaper to hire live players


Yes but those of us who live in the boonies would have to return to civilization for that!


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## NYC Composer (Mar 15, 2018)

shapednoise said:


> Hans does not drive.


Charlie don’t surf.


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## Vik (Mar 16, 2018)

Lee Blaske said:


> I wonder if we've really reached the point of diminishing returns when it comes to sample library development


There's a lot to be done still. And once one company starts to implement something great, many of the others will follow - sooner or later.

• Very few string libraries offer divisi sections. 

• Very few string libraries have auto-divisi.

• Very few string libraries have (convincing) polyphonic portamento.

• Very few libraries have 5+ (or even 4) dynamic layers.

• Very few libraries are modular (meaning that you can choose between various sections sizes, not only divisi).

• Many libraries have placed the legato and non-legato options in separate presets, it's better to be able to switch between legato and non-legato on-the-fly using as an simple method as possible.

• Very few libraries come with a built-in auto-arranger script (a la LASS). 

• Special artics, like flautando often come with only one dynamic layer. 

• Many of us need to use several libraries to get that various kind of string sounds we want (lush, lyrical, with 'bite' etc), I believe that in the future, we'll see libraries which offer what we need several libraries today for - in one package. That's a mush better solution than having to switch between several libraries to get things done in.

• I think we'll see more and more companies which allow purchase of only one instrument (eg Violin 1). That's useful because we usually can't demo a library, so buying into one of the instruments to try it out would be a good substitute for that. 

• Many libraries miss proper sounding rebowing samples (with a simple UI). 

And so on...

So..."diminishing returns"? No way. This has just started!


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