# Woodwinds quality?



## Rob (Jul 28, 2008)

hi, I'd like to have an opinion on the sound quality of the wivi woodwinds I'm trying to incorporate in my music... I think they are very usable, but I need fresh ears to have a more objective judgement. Thank you

http://www.robertosoggetti.com/DanceAntique.mp3

different EQ version:

http://www.robertosoggetti.com/DanceAntiqueEQ.mp3


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## re-peat (Jul 28, 2008)

Roberto,

Your music always has such overwhelming beauty that, as far as I'm concerned, the quality of the individual sounds doesn't matter one bit. Here again: the only thing I hear is a gorgeous piece of music, and it would never occur to me to say something about the sounds you used - that seems totally besides the point to me. 

But, since you specifically ask, here's a few thoughts (very cautiously and humbly served): the WIVI oboe doesn't rank among Arne's finest achievements, I believe. I bought it as well, but I hardly ever use it because it doesn't have enough 'double reed colour' in its timbre (and any attempt to bring that out immediately produces even less desirable side-effects). The WIVI oboe, to me, always sounds like an undefinable, hybrid woodwind of some sorts, but seldom like a believable oboe ...

The WIVI clarinet, on its own, can be a bit problematic as well: if you're not careful, you end up with this somewhat empty, thin and hollow tube-y sound. Reminiscent of a clarinet, yes, but still a long way from a believable impersonation. That problem doesn't manifest itself all that much in this particular piece, but still: a clarinetsound with more velvety warmth and a full round tone would, I think, be an improvement.

If I'm honest, the moment the muted strings enter is for me a weaker moment than anything that came before - from a 'believability' point of view, I mean. It's not so much the strings themselves (even though I find their gloss bordering on the synthethic), but maybe more the fact that they possess entirely different acoustical characteristics than the modeled winds. Or maybe it's got something to do with the ambience and placement? I don't really know. It's an extremely subtle thing and impossible to describe accurately, but something doesn't quite fit between those two sections (strings & winds).

But again: I've only mentioned all this because you asked. If you hadn't, I would simply have reacted with: gloriously beautiful music.

_


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## rayinstirling (Jul 28, 2008)

All of what re-peat said but mostly.

gloriously beautiful music

Ray


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## Rob (Jul 29, 2008)

Thank you very much, Piet for your comment... I 
second everything that you say. The reason why I 
keep using the wivi instruments is they are so 
malleable and expressive. They allow me to take 
care of the phrasing which I feel is a vital part 
of composing. As for strings, you're absolutely 
right, they seem to be on a completely different 
plane than the winds; I'll try and do something, 
looking for the right eq and spatial placement. 

Again thank you,

Roberto


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## Rob (Jul 29, 2008)

Ray and Gunther, thank you very much!

Roberto


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## re-peat (Jul 29, 2008)

Rob @ Tue Jul 29 said:


> (...) The reason why I keep using the wivi instruments is they are so malleable and expressive. They allow me to take care of the phrasing which I feel is a vital part of composing. (...)



I know. That's precisely the reason why Synful (and later, WIVI) was such a profound revelation to me as well. A true, expressive performance is indeed MUCH more musically satisfying and convincing, than the fairly trivial success of being able to achieve some superficial likeness to a real instrument by stitching together dead samples.
Having said that, there are moments when timbre - pure timbre - becomes as much a part of the composition as any other musical element, and at those moments it's nice to have something available which delivers just that: good sound (even if some expression has to be sacrificed in the process). But you know all this better than anyone else, I'm sure.

_


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## Rob (Jul 29, 2008)

re-peat @ 29th July 2008 said:


> Having said that, there are moments when timbre - pure timbre - becomes as much a part of the composition as any other musical element, and at those moments it's nice to have something available which delivers just that: good sound (even if some expression has to be sacrificed in the process).
> 
> _



exactly... 
still, I want to get the best I can out of these instruments... I've done a frequency analisys of the piece, and have found that the wivi instruments have a narrower range than the strings, with a boost between 250 and 2000 Hz, so I've dig a hole in the wivi eq, and compensated with some high freq. (12K). This has also brought some annoying distortion in the highs, but also given some "air" to the winds ( :D ). Here is the eqed version, I've also reinforced the violas.

http://www.robertosoggetti.com/DanceAntiqueEQ.mp3


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## Craig Sharmat (Jul 29, 2008)

the writing is of course very nice, I am not sure how much improvement will happen tonally with these instruments. I can hear the flow and expressiveness, which of course is great, but I think there is inherent problems with the sounds you may not be able to overcome compared to real instruments.


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## Rob (Jul 29, 2008)

thank you, Craig... well I hope this wivi technology has room for improvement, I don't really know nothing about this kind of synthesys. I know Arne is about to release a major update of his player, we'll see, it might be a step in the right direction...

Roberto


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## re-peat (Jul 29, 2008)

Roberto,

Mmm, I think that you've lost more than you gained with that second version. Some of the woodwinds - the oboe in particular - are coming dangerously close to sounding somewhat unpleasant and the whole track has acquired a noticeably _processed_ feel, which I don't think is your intention. The stronger violas however are a definite improvement.
How about carefully restoring some of the high end in the strings - only very mildly though, otherwise that synthy gloss will comòt=   €Ôt=   €Ô	t=   €Ô
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## synthetic (Jul 29, 2008)

Lovely piece. I also prefer the original mix. Perhaps a narrow peak boost in the high end (10k-20k) would be better for adding some air. 

Wivi, yeah. I really _want_ to like Wivi, but it always sounds a bit lifeless to me. The horn is nice sometimes. I much prefer using Sonic Implants or Westgate samples then adding expression and DEF to that.


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## Rob (Jul 30, 2008)

re-peat @ 29th July 2008 said:


> Just curious: have you any alternatives for the WIVI oboe? The XSample oboe, for instance, has a very nice tone (and so does the XSample _oboe d'amore_) and is programmed in such a way that it is capable of a good amount of expression as well. And the instrument from Westgate isn't to be laughed at either. Since the oboe is performing such a prominent part in the music, it might be an idea to look into these.
> I actually often combine sampled and modeled instruments, even within one and the same phrase: the sampled notes keep the believability on an acceptable level while the modeled ones lend the phrase a depth and expression which is beyond the reach of samples. It doesn't work with every type of melody of course, but it often does and when it does, it's usually a substantial improvement.
> 
> _



here I have a version with the westgate oboe, legato patch:

http://www.robertosoggetti.com/DanseAntiqueWG.mp3

and yet a different mix, following your suggestion (I have re-eq the oboe, though, I seem to be unable to keep my hands from touching things  )

http://www.robertosoggetti.com/DanseAntique3.mp3

still, I like the wivi better... 

Roberto


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## Rob (Jul 30, 2008)

synthetic @ 29th July 2008 said:


> Lovely piece. I also prefer the original mix. Perhaps a narrow peak boost in the high end (10k-20k) would be better for adding some air.



thank you very much, synthetic



> Wivi, yeah. I really _want_ to like Wivi, but it always sounds a bit lifeless to me. The horn is nice sometimes. I much prefer using Sonic Implants or Westgate samples then adding expression and DEF to that.



that's strange, I feel the opposite... I like wivi for its liveliness. It shows, if it was ever needed, that each one has different ways of perceiving music.

Roberto


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## Pedro Camacho (Jul 30, 2008)

I liked the composition and melodic decisions of your music.

I would just warn you to be careful when you write polyphonic stuff like this (a mimic of harmony in Baroque / Classical / Romantic period).

I can hear some parallel fifths right in the beginning which is considered as a big polyphony error for pieces of this type. 

Don't get me wrong, I believe there is no right or wrong in music but in this context that is an error. If this piece was made under a different context (both harmonically and in terms of polyphony) this would not be considered an error.

Anyway I also agree with Craig, the piece would gain a completely "new life" is you used more real like sounds.

For Woodwinds only, I think VSL have some excellent sounds, try them.

I liked the motif development you achieved and expression with the instruments at your disposal.


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## Rob (Jul 30, 2008)

Pedro Camacho @ 30th July 2008 said:


> I liked the composition and melodic decisions of your music.
> 
> I would just warn you to be careful when you write polyphonic stuff like this (a mimic of harmony in Baroque / Classical / Romantic period).
> 
> ...



:shock:


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## Rob (Jul 30, 2008)

re-peat @ 30th July 2008 said:


> Roberto, I agree: I prefer the WIVI-performance as well, as far as the oboe is concerned - it definitely serves the music best. (If one could only transplant some of the Westgate's timbral characteristics into the WIVI's performance ...)



yeah, that'd be great... I'm under the impression that wivi instruments only follow the original model to a certain number of overtones, maybe an improvement could be going up yet some more... but I might be completely wrong



> The best strings I've heard thusfar however are in the WG-version (not 'DanceAntique3', but 'DanceAntiqueWG'). So, if I may make one more suggestion: the original version, but with the strings from the WG-version.
> 
> _



I will do it, thanks Piet for your kindness

Roberto


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## Frederick Russ (Jul 30, 2008)

Hi Rob - lovely writing.

Sampled and/or modeled instruments - as good as they can be - are put to the acid test when placed in isolation with the many solo parts you have in the beginning. The only way I can see this improved from a realism standpoint based on the current writing of this is to add real instruments although VSL might be another choice - especially when the recorded stereo width is narrowed for woodwinds. Sampled/modeled instruments are inherently more suited being placed in layers to hide some of the flaws that reveal them as synthetic.

I admire your effort in going for realism but you're bouncing against the limitations of sampled/modeled instruments. Some can be made to sound incredibly realistic through hours of massaging and editing - but in the end, a good live player can add so much life and body to the piece. I'm sure there are some fine players in Italy? Check them out and try your hand at recording some.


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## Rob (Jul 30, 2008)

Frederick Russ @ 30th July 2008 said:


> Hi Rob - lovely writing.
> 
> Sampled and/or modeled instruments - as good as they can be - are put to the acid test when placed in isolation with many the solo parts you have in the beginning. The only way I can see this improved from a realism standpoint based on the current writing of this is to add real instruments although VSL might be another choice - especially when the recorded stereo width is narrowed for woodwinds. Sampled/modeled instruments are inherently more suited being placed in layers to hide some of the flaws that reveal them as synthetic.
> 
> I admire your effort in going for realism but you're bouncing against the limitations of sampled/modeled instruments. Some can be made to sound incredibly realistic through hours of massaging and editing - but in the end, a good live player can add so much life and body to the piece. I'm sure there are some fine players in Italy? Check them out and try your hand at recording some.



hi Frederick, thank you very much. I know you are right, but as long as I don't have a real reason many of my music will remain in the sampled state... we have òtŠ   €æûtŠ   €æütŠ   €æýtŠ   €æþt‹   €æÿt‹   €ç t‹   €çt‹   €çt‹   €çt‹   €çt‹   €çt‹   €çt‹   €çt‹   €çtŒ   €ç	tŒ   €ç
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## lux (Aug 1, 2008)

eh...parallel fifths...i remember i got some prize at that in my college gymnic games.

Molto bello ed espressivo come al solito Roberto.


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## Rob (Aug 1, 2008)

lux @ 1st August 2008 said:


> eh...parallel fifths...i remember i got some prize at that in my college gymnic games.



:D :D :D I was a master at Parallel octaves, much higher...



> Molto bello ed espressivo come al solito Roberto.



grazie Luca, il tuo parere e' sempre molto apprezzato...

Roberto


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## Ed (Aug 1, 2008)

Rob @ Wed Jul 30 said:


> hi Frederick, thank you very much. I know you are right, but as long as I don't have a real reason many of my music will remain in the sampled state... we have great players, and I personally know many, but only when I get a payed commission to compose I enter the recording studio. Or when I'll make up my mind and record my own cd...



If you really feel ready and confident to get a paid commission I would go and record several real musicians if you have the talent and equipment around, that way you will make your music sound more attractive to potential directors or producers or whoever.


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