# Is it ok to copy orchestration?



## erica-grace (Feb 8, 2019)

I am not asking from a legal perspective, but an ethical one.

Say I have some John Williams sheet music, from Hal Leonard. I write a melody and chord progression that is in no way similar to, say, the Jurassic Park theme. But instead of orchestrating this myself, which I am still learning how to do, I sit there and say, "ok - he used the trumpets to play the main melody, and so will I. He did this with the strings, and this with the low brass, etc. So will I."

Again, I am not copying notes - if I did, it wouldn't sound right anyway. I am using notes that work in my music - not his. But I am copying the ideas behind those notes, methods, section combinations, and so on.

This is not simply for learning purposes, if it were, I would not even think of asking. This is for a piece of music that will be released, and might earn me money.

What do the rest of you think?


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## Desire Inspires (Feb 8, 2019)

Do it.


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## gsilbers (Feb 8, 2019)

thats what john williams has been doing for like 60 years. do it. just try to use other references than only john williams.


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## Chr!s (Feb 8, 2019)




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## jbuhler (Feb 8, 2019)

erica-grace said:


> I am not asking from a legal perspective, but an ethical one.
> 
> Say I have some John Williams sheet music, from Hal Leonard. I write a melody and chord progression that is in no way similar to, say, the Jurassic Park theme. But instead of orchestrating this myself, which I am still learning how to do, I sit there and say, "ok - he used the trumpets to play the main melody, and so will I. He did this with the strings, and this with the low brass, etc. So will I."
> 
> ...


I think it depends on how characteristic the orchestration you are modeling is. But the thing of it is: the orchestration is designed to suit the material, and usually the more characteristic the orchestration the more it is designed to suit the material. Hence, there is a lot that can go wrong (or at least sound awkward) when trying to copy orchestration in this way. But if you had the happy accident that the orchestration you are modeling does suit your material and your material is distinct from the piece whose orchestration you are modeling, I don’t think anyone would object.


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## Crowe (Feb 8, 2019)

Does it work with your piece? Will the orchestration evoke the feeling you want to this way?

There is value in being able to do what Williams does, but is that actually the sound you want for this work? If so, I don't really see an issue.


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## Living Fossil (Feb 8, 2019)

erica-grace said:


> This is not simply for learning purposes, if it were, I would not even think of asking. This is for a piece of music that will be released, and might earn me money.
> 
> What do the rest of you think?



Of course, do it. That's how tradition works.


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## NoamL (Feb 8, 2019)




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## erica-grace (Feb 8, 2019)

So, I guess that's a "no" then? 

Seriously, thank you for all of the replies


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## Jdiggity1 (Feb 8, 2019)

NoamL said:


>



Howard Hanson copies John Williams too?!?!? :O


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 8, 2019)

Hell, I copy the notes as well, not just the orchestration.


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## novicecomposer (Feb 8, 2019)

Imitate but add your tiny ideas a little by little. Innovation starts from there. Early Beethoven's music so much sounds like Mozart's and Mozart's like Haydn's.

Now some guys always sound like Zimmer, JW, just the same movie trailer sounds we always hear. While their copying ability is admirable (it takes lots of skills to copy well after all) nobody will remember them hundreds years later.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Feb 8, 2019)

NoamL said:


>



hehe uncanny


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## Quasar (Feb 8, 2019)

Think of another genre of music: I listened to Cream's _Disraeli Gears_ and really liked the sound. So now I'm thinking of writing a rock song that has a drum kit laying down a rhythm, an electric bass guitar to enforce that rhythm as well as play some root tones and melody, an electric guitar that plays both solo leads and chords, and a vocalist who sings words.

It will be my own song, but I'm copying their instrumentation. Is that okay?


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Feb 8, 2019)

Quasar said:


> Think of another genre of music: I listened to Cream's _Disraeli Gears_ and really liked the sound. So now I'm thinking of writing a rock song that has a drum kit laying down a rhythm, an electric bass guitar to enforce that rhythm as well as play some root tones and melody, an electric guitar that plays both solo leads and chords, and a vocalist who sings words.
> 
> It will be my own song, but I'm copying their instrumentation. Is that okay?


ur going to jail m8


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## bachader (Feb 9, 2019)

I think there is no such thing as unique/original orchestration in orchestral music after 400 hundreds of classical music. Even great composers like JW , Jerry Goldsmith heavily relied on the the orchestration style of earlier classical composers, mostly romantic era. Compare Debussy with soundtrack of Papillon, or Star Wars with Planets of Holst. In fact, many times directors/producers/music editors sometimes compel composers to produce nearly a replica of the temp track and many composers are probably copying the full orchestration of the temp track and change melody and a few more things to avoid royalties. Feel free to copy any orchestration. They are probably not original either.



erica-grace said:


> I am not asking from a legal perspective, but an ethical one.
> 
> Say I have some John Williams sheet music, from Hal Leonard. I write a melody and chord progression that is in no way similar to, say, the Jurassic Park theme. But instead of orchestrating this myself, which I am still learning how to do, I sit there and say, "ok - he used the trumpets to play the main melody, and so will I. He did this with the strings, and this with the low brass, etc. So will I."
> 
> ...


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## mikeh-375 (Feb 9, 2019)

Erica,
@jbuhler touched on the best way to score imv. You might want to consider thinking of instruments _as_ you compose, not really as an afterthought or a process after composing. (apologies if you don't think that way ). Learning instruments characteristics and then exploiting them in the composing really is the best way to go about it - it's what Williams and countless other greats do. This also applies to midi scoring imv for the most effective DAW music.
I know I sound like a broken, repeating record in this forum, but learning to write for the instrument(s) strengths, learning the physical and acoustical mechanics of foreground and background writing and the techniques of instrumental combination over a prolonged period of study and exercise is the only way to get you right up in the JW ballpark. Do that and you wont need to ask the question anymore because the composing and scoring become one to unite in a powerful expressive combination. Remember, scoring is composing too.
BTW Like others, I don't see a problem with copying scoring procedures, but make sure your notes are nowhere near any temp or reference track....I speak from great experience in this..


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## Saxer (Feb 9, 2019)

Best way to learn is copying plus experimentation.

But you have to remember that a lot of orchestration decisions are simply made by practical reasons. Maybe trumpets just had a high part and before they go on comping with staccato they'd better have a few bars rest to relax. Or the beginning middle line fits exactly into horn range but goes up at the end so it's better to give it to the clarinets. Or the brass goes up so it's better to double the lower string chords with another section to keep the volume in balance.
So when copying orchestration it's also important to understand why it is done that way. Everything can collapse just because you are in another key or your themes cover different ranges inside the key.


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## Ben H (Feb 9, 2019)

erica-grace said:


> Is it ok to copy orchestration?



Possibly not, if recent court rulings are anything to go by.

Take for example the recent "Blurred Lines" court case where they ruled that the two songs had a similar "vibe" to them, because they shared the same sort of instrumentation and feel, even though no notes/melodies/parts were actually copied from the original tune.

Not good for composers these days, that are asked to create "sound-alikes." The line is now even easier to cross.

Of course, it would still require someone to accuse you of having similar orchestration to their own piece, and then choose to sue you. But it is now not without precedent.


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## DivingInSpace (Feb 9, 2019)

Ever heard the expression Good artists copy, Great artists steal? An often misunderstood saying that some people use as an excuse to illegally sample or plagiarize other peoples work, when in reality what it means is exactly what you are asking about. Steal ideas, don't copy material. The ideas you are stealing here is the arrangement of Williams, which is in my opinion in no way is a bad thing, there is no reason to reinvent the wheel every time you compose.


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## bachader (Feb 9, 2019)

This is interesting. Not orchestral though. The similarity is not due to orchestration, IMO. The melodic bass make it sound similar. Some else could sue Marvin Sue for syncopated rhythm and so on. It could go insane.





Ben H said:


> Possibly not, if recent court rulings are anything to go by.
> 
> Take for example the recent "Blurred Lines" court case where they ruled that the two songs had a similar "vibe" to them, because they shared the same sort of instrumentation and feel, even though no notes/melodies/parts were actually copied from the original tune.
> 
> ...


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## AllanH (Feb 9, 2019)

I think the answer to a very large extent is "yes", or at least presumed to be "yes" in most textbooks. I'm sure I'm picking up ideas when I study the orchestrations I have. I don't deliberately copy them, but I could certainly coincidentally do so. 

I'm not even sure how I could copy a specific orchestration if the melody/harmony/structure is different; at "best" I'd be inspired by it.

Interesting question!


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## AllanH (Feb 9, 2019)

Ben H said:


> Possibly not, if recent court rulings are anything to go by.
> 
> Take for example the recent "Blurred Lines" court case where they ruled that the two songs had a similar "vibe" to them, because they shared the same sort of instrumentation and feel, even though no notes/melodies/parts were actually copied from the original tune.



This is actually a dangerous ruling in that it established that a certain "vibe" can be copyrighted. That will hopefully be challenged at some point, as that's pretty crazy.

I'm sure the attorneys are off desperately trying to buy the rights to some original recording from the 50s or 60s of "the first" I–vi–IV–V (and similar) progressions. There's a goldmine waiting to be found.


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## DivingInSpace (Feb 9, 2019)

AllanH said:


> This is actually a dangerous ruling in that it established that a certain "vibe" can be copyrighted. That will hopefully be challenged at some point, as that's pretty crazy.
> 
> I'm sure the attorneys are off desperately trying to buy the rights to some original recording from the 50s or 60s of "the first" I–vi–IV–V (and similar) progressions. There's a goldmine waiting to be found.


Yeah, this is directly crazy in my opinion. Shows what good lawyers (and maybe money under the table) can do. I thought the Stairway to Heaven case was problematic, but this.. Damn.


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## ZenFaced (Feb 9, 2019)

Absolutely. Most, if not all masters, have looked at predecessor scores for ideas.


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## Parsifal666 (Feb 9, 2019)

You BETTER!


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## JPQ (Feb 9, 2019)

Instrument ccomintations whch work real orchestra is limited and some insturment combinations and palying techniques are onnected speffic emotions etc. no one cannopt copyright them.


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## JJP (Feb 10, 2019)

If what you wrote is in no way similar to Williams, but you want to use the same type of orchestration that's fine. All you are doing is using the same techniques Willams used to orchestrate his music. That's done all the time. Nobody owns instrument combinations and playing techniques.


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## JohnG (Feb 10, 2019)

I thought the language used by plaintiffs in "Blurred Lines" was the two songs possessed "a constellation of similarities."

Either way, the defence didn't do themselves any favors by admitting that they were thinking of that specific song when composing their hit.

I think it was a legal aberration that only could have come about because of particular circumstances. But I'm no lawyer.


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