# What every creative person needs to know



## Uncle Peter (Sep 22, 2020)

Jordan Peterson on creativity.


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## gamma-ut (Sep 22, 2020)

I think you mean "Jordan Peterson deploying the same level of insight as the average concerned parent". 

Do they let just anyone teach psychology these days?


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## Cheezus (Sep 22, 2020)

Having a hard time thinking of anyone with less credibility in 2020 than Peterson.


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## Greg (Sep 22, 2020)

Youtube has entered the chat.


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## SupremeFist (Sep 22, 2020)

I can confirm that eating nothing but beef and then lapsing into a coma in Russia did not do much for my compositional productivity.


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## Ivan M. (Sep 22, 2020)

Peterson is a great thinker. It's easy to mock anyone when you're not challenged by a reply. He understands people better than most as he works as a therapist. 
What he said there is completelly true. Some of it might be obvious to you, but here he's speaking to students, future psychologists, therapists, psychiatrists or whatever, who are not artists, but who do need to understand people.


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## Ivan M. (Sep 22, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> I can confirm that eating nothing but beef and then lapsing into a coma in Russia did not do much for my compositional productivity.



He was going through a very rough time, which would crush many people. Doctors gave him benzodiazepines to help him cope. Subscribing benzos is not uncommon, but it's not recommended practice, as they have addictive properties. Which unfortunatelly manifested in him when he tried to stop taking them. He was transported to Russia by his family, not his own idea, where he was put into induced coma, while his organism cleans from benzos. And it did help.
This is no joking issue.


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## gamma-ut (Sep 22, 2020)

Yes this man is totally not a quack: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2018/08/the-peterson-family-meat-cleanse/567613/


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## InLight-Tone (Sep 22, 2020)

Ivan M. said:


> He was going through a very rough time, which would crush many people. Doctors gave him benzodiazepines to help him cope.



WE ALL go through very rough times. He chose drugs to cope not unlike any other addict. Prescription or illegal drugs are no different, in fact prescription drugs can be far WORSE!


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## Ivan M. (Sep 22, 2020)

InLight-Tone said:


> WE ALL go through very rough times. He chose drugs to cope not unlike any other addict. Prescription or illegal drugs are no different, in fact prescription drugs can be far WORSE!



You made your best effort to discredit the man. Why? Negate and relativize his suffering, blame doctors mistake on him, make prescription drugs look worse than drugs, just to prepare an emotionaly fabricated premises so that you can draw a conclusion and equate him to an irresponsible addict not worth listening to? 
That's an utterly weak argument, a sophism. Is it because you don't like him? He speaks stuff you don't like to hear?


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## Cheezus (Sep 22, 2020)

Jordan Peterson has such an inherently political persona I feel like a thread about him probably belongs in the political subforum.


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## Crowe (Sep 22, 2020)

InLight-Tone said:


> WE ALL go through very rough times. He chose drugs to cope not unlike any other addict. Prescription or illegal drugs are no different, in fact prescription drugs can be far WORSE!



That's idiotic. If it wasn't for antidepressants I'd be dead now.


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## SupremeFist (Sep 22, 2020)

Ivan M. said:


> This is no joking issue.


I'm quite sure Dr Peterson would agree that anyone who seeks global fame with a book purporting to set out the rules for life is also a fair target for mockery.


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## InLight-Tone (Sep 22, 2020)

Shiirai said:


> If it wasn't for antidepressants I'd be dead now.


Actually that statement is idiotic. Antidepressants have helped you ADAPT to a deadly situation. The REASON WE're depressed is because WE try to LIVE a LIFE away from LIFE, i.e., Sun/Light, Air, Water & Earth. The greater the degree of separation, the greater the depression...


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## Living Fossil (Sep 22, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> I'm quite sure Dr Peterson would agree that anyone who seeks global fame with a book purporting to set out the rules for life is also a fair target for mockery.



While i don't think that anybody who writes a book does it because he seeks global fame (usually people write books because they are convinced that what they have to say has some relevance), i think that he would agree that everybody who states controversial opinions will get targeted by mockery. 

Nevertheless, it seems a bit pathetic to me that it's obviously completely impossible nowadays to discuss a specific topic if the person who stated it is a controversial one.
What Peterson says in that video is straight on to the point. 
Also if one disagrees with everything else he thinks or says, this topic wasn't about Peterson in general but about a specific short video.


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## InLight-Tone (Sep 22, 2020)

Nova said:


> That is a fantastically tone-deaf and ignorant take on depression.


To say that, means to me you haven't given the mechanics of depression much thought. That's my story and I'm sticking to it....


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## Cheezus (Sep 22, 2020)

If you can fill in the blank for the following sentence:

"Jordan Peterson DESTROYS _____ with FACTS and LOGIC"

You'll know exactly why it's impossible to discuss any topic that Jordan Peterson brings up without it becoming political.


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## anjwilson (Sep 22, 2020)

Cheezus said:


> If you can fill in the blank for the following sentence:
> 
> "Jordan Peterson DESTROYS _____ with FACTS and LOGIC"
> 
> You'll know exactly why it's impossible to discuss any topic that Jordan Peterson brings up without it becoming political.



I don't like Peterson. Regardless, the genetic fallacy is never a reasonable tactic.


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## Cheezus (Sep 22, 2020)

anjwilson said:


> I don't like Peterson. Regardless, the genetic fallacy is never a reasonable tactic.


The dude has a brand, it's the whole reason anyone even knows his name. I've just never encountered a Jordan Peterson thread that didn't devolve to political bashing.


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## Crowe (Sep 22, 2020)

InLight-Tone said:


> Actually that statement is idiotic. Antidepressants have helped you ADAPT to a deadly situation. The REASON WE're depressed is because WE try to LIVE a LIFE away from LIFE, i.e., Sun/Light, Air, Water & Earth. The greater the degree of separation, the greater the depression...



The fact that you're *so* certain you can't be wrong about something you clearly know nothing about would be funny if you weren't part of the problem.

But please, by all means. Keep telling me about me and my life.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Sep 22, 2020)

Ivan M. said:


> he's speaking to students, future psychologists, therapists, psychiatrists



That's the insane part.


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## gamma-ut (Sep 22, 2020)

Living Fossil said:


> What Peterson says in that video is straight on to the point.



How so? Unless I'm missing some nuance here, it's basically "son, why can't you get a proper job?" expanded to five or six minutes, hence my initial comment. He divides the population into creative/non-creative, which seems an arbitrary distinction for a psychologist to make. It would seem more realistic to look at these things on a continuum. Most people are creative in some sense: the difference is more one of degree. And he divides work into creative/non-creative, which also seems somewhat arbitrary as there are plenty of jobs that need some semblance of creativity. 

And he ignores the issue of craft. Some things need practice and lots of it. Maybe you get lucky and find a job that either provides sufficient time to practice the "hobby" or you find one that overlaps enough to make the practice part of the job. But there's no getting around Peterson's "advice" is going to result in a lot of unhappy people if taken at face value simply because it's such a naive and simplistic analysis, not least because it kicks off with the idea that the sole motivation for creativity is financial. People often create because they are driven to create. Some get lucky and make money off it. You've got to hope that lecture gets better from there (and wonder why anyone's promoting this segment).

He speaks as though he's heard of creative people but never actually met or studied any.


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## Living Fossil (Sep 22, 2020)

gamma-ut said:


> How so? Unless I'm missing some nuance here




Yes, you completely miss the quintessence of what he says (it's not a "nuance" you get completely wrong, it's more the whole video, i guess).
But honestly, i don't have neither the time nor the intent to explain it to you.
Maybe watch it again, but this time tell yourself that instead of JP it's somebody you like who is telling the same things, if it's antipathy that reduces your ability to grasp what he speaks about.


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## Ivan M. (Sep 22, 2020)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> That's the insane part.



Why?


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## muk (Sep 22, 2020)

Well, I know nothing about Peterson. Hadn't heard of him before. That video? Shoulder shrugs. It's not about creativity at all. What he says is that you shouldn't launch a startup company. All the difficulties he mentions? They have nothing to do with creativity, but with launching a succesful business. So essentially he is saying that launching a career as freelancer is very difficult, therefor you shouldn't do it. The first part is uncontroversial in my opinion. Every business teacher will tell you the same. It's not like he is telling something original. Whether the conclusion is right as well, that's up for discussion. In any case a fair warning about the difficulties and the odds can not hurt.

Of course he is totally black or white about it, which is obviously not the reality. You either win the lottery als self-made entrepreneur, or you are doomed to a life in misery? Well, there are countless people who prove otherwise. There are many composers earning a decent living out of production music, for example. Not getting amazingly rich or famous, nor being poor. It's not either or. In fact, for most people it probably won't be either of the two extremes, but somewhere in between. So in my opinion he is exaggerating to make a point. A point that is not wrong. Trying to launch a career as self-employed person is risky. Yet it can work, even if you don't 'win the lottery', so he is not telling the whole story either.

I am wondering though why a psychologist should be the best person to give advice about launching a self-employed career. If I was thinking about taking such a career-path, I would seek counsel elsewhere.


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## dcoscina (Sep 22, 2020)

gamma-ut said:


> I think you mean "Jordan Peterson deploying the same level of insight as the average concerned parent".
> 
> Do they let just anyone teach psychology these days?


I dunno, when I was studying Jazz in university, one of my profs flat out said there was no money nor a career in jazz. I think it's not horrible to tell people the hard time they are in store for if they choose this path.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Sep 22, 2020)

Ivan M. said:


> Why?



Cause he's a certified whacko who acts as a humanities professor, but actually subscribes to a bizzare mix of backwards Christianity, far right mythology and some truly far out Ron L. Hubbard type shit.


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## MartinH. (Sep 22, 2020)

What a depressing thread. Wanna shit on Dr. K too while you're at it?


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## Ivan M. (Sep 22, 2020)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Cause he's a certified whacko who acts as a humanities professor, but actually subscribes to a bizzare mix of backwards Christianity, far right mythology and some truly far out Ron L. Hubbard type shit.



Why do you think that? And I'm also curious what is "far right mythology"?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 22, 2020)

What a clickbait title! 

Jordan Peterson is not even marginally intelligent. I saw him on Bill Maher - who I've long since canceled for being an uninformed, obnoxious jerk - and had no idea who he was, but I couldn't understand why such a boring dolt would be on television.

Then I found out that he actually has a following! People actually listen to what that dipshit says about being a parent!!!


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## InLight-Tone (Sep 22, 2020)

Shiirai said:


> The fact that you're *so* certain you can't be wrong about something you clearly know nothing about would be funny if you weren't part of the problem.


This part I'm certain about:
"The REASON WE're depressed is because WE try to LIVE a LIFE away from LIFE, i.e., Sun/Light, Air, Water & Earth. The greater the degree of separation, the greater the depression... "

The body is composed of 30+ Trillion cells and some 40+ Trillion bacteria. Those cells are programmed to be in the LifeStreams mentioned above. When they are deprived they become unhappy, and no amount of mental trickery, or drug therapy, etc., can fool them, and that COLLECTIVE unhappiness, will drag your mind down with them. 

Big city (Living/Dying), staying indoors most of the time, and staring at screens all day for money, is the perfect recipe for depression...


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## InLight-Tone (Sep 22, 2020)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Cause he's a certified whacko who acts as a humanities professor, but actually subscribes to a bizzare mix of backwards Christianity, far right mythology and some truly far out Ron L. Hubbard type shit.


Mixed with a liberal dose of anti-depressants. He's all over YouTube as a motivational speaker...


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## Craig Duke (Sep 22, 2020)

For anyone needing a lift after listening to Jordan Peterson's "Everybody Says Don't", Stephen Sondheim, via Sutton Foster, say 'do' and don't be afraid.


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## Fredeke (Sep 23, 2020)

Cheezus said:


> Jordan Peterson has such an inherently political persona I feel like a thread about him probably belongs in the political subforum.


I don't agree. Even though his political stance is why I got to know about him, after hearing him on a variety of subjects I can tell that controversy is the least interesting thing about him. (And his speech on creativity is no more political than any other VI discussion.)

I think this should go directly to the Drama Zone - maybe not yet, but soon enough it would seem.


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## marclawsonmusic (Sep 23, 2020)

anjwilson said:


> I don't like Peterson. Regardless, the genetic fallacy is never a reasonable tactic.



Neither is ad hominem, which is prevalent in this thread.


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## penfever (Sep 23, 2020)

I have watched many hours of Dr. Peterson's videos, as has my wife. I hope you won't mind if I share my thoughts, but given how this thread is going, I suspect some of you will.

Something like 700 hours of this man's life have been posted to YouTube. That doesn't happen to a normal human being. So no, Jordan Peterson is not normal. He eats only meat and talks about lobsters and uses Disney movies to make points about the work of Carl Jung, another outtre intellectual. He's opinionated and decidedly off-message with regards to the 'woke for 2020' set, albeit not so with regards to the mainstream, as his popularity can attest.

What is critics seem to miss is that his outspokenness, and the silly reactions he provokes, are surely part of his appeal. He is authentically courageous in the face of criticism, which precious few people are these days. He faces it and attempts to respond rationally, instead of resorting to personal attacks or ignoring his critics. And he is wrong, certainly, as all public intellectuals are at times. Hegel had some extremely weird ideas, Nietzsche was full of them. John Locke wrote kinky poetry when he wasn't opining about the rights of man. Goethe was practically in love with Satan, as was Milton.

What I personally like about him (at his best) is that he can be interesting, and thought-provoking. His somewhat ridiculous habit of leaping from one topic to another has, for me, the pleasant side effect of forging novel connections I wouldn't have made otherwise. For instance, one of my favorite ideas of his is, "You should try to have an honest relationship with what interests you." Have I heard it elsewhere? Sure. But his version sticks with me better. It's part of why I still pursue music, albeit not as a career.

Note that that idea, like most of his ideas, is completely uncontroversial and unpolitical.

I have no problem with anyone presenting counterfactuals to any claim he (or anyone) advances, although I'm more likely to be convinced by well-reasoned evidence than appeals to emotion. Some of his more political stances are highly debatable, and I personally don't buy them. 

What I don't understand about the reaction to Peterson (and Friedersdorf, and McWhorter, and Matt Taibbi and all the centrists) is how angry and emotional people get when their names are so much as mentioned. Why do you feel the need to hijack a thread, posted in good faith as an attempt to be useful, with ad hominem raging against the source? What is so threatening about ideas other than your own?


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## Uiroo (Sep 23, 2020)

Read his book, watched his interviews, his lectures, agree with most of it.
As a Jordan Peterson "follower", it has been very interesting encountering critique of this person.

It's rarely civil, almost never respectful to him or people who like him, and it never seems well intentioned.
If you guys are finished venting, you might consider that it's likely that not all people who subscribe to his ideas are far right idiots.


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