# Performance issues on new 4930 build [now about general performance stuff]



## Guy Rowland (Mar 21, 2014)

So I have my shiny new high spec PC - done some semi-urgent initial work and its running ok, but had to run the buffer settings very high (1024). So now trying to get the bottom of it, and LatencyMon has reported a sorry state of affairs. First of all specs:

i7-4930 3.4ghz with Noctua NH-D14 fan
Asus x79 deluxe
RAM 64gb
OS drive Crucial 240gb SSD
Various SSD sample drives and regular drives for media
PSU Seasonic 650w
2x Asus GT610 fanless graphics cards
RME Babyface
Win 7 pro 64 bit
Cubase 7.5.10

Should be pretty good, right?

So I read to roll back the graphics card drives to 2012 versions, because of CUDA problems, but it doesn't seem to have made any difference. I get this general message from LatencyMon



> Your system appears to be having trouble handling real-time audio and other tasks. You are likely to experience buffer underruns appearing as drop outs, clicks or pops. One or more DPC routines that belong to a driver running in your system appear to be executing for too long. One problem may be related to power management, disable CPU throttling settings in Control Panel and BIOS setup. Check for BIOS updates.



I think I've updated the bios stuff to latest versions - there are scores of different drivers on the website so I don't know if I've missed anything crucial though. I'll post the full report below so if people quote this post it's not quite so verbose. Any ideas of things to try gratefully received.


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 21, 2014)

*Re: Performance issues on new 4930 build*

Full LatencyMon report:

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
CONCLUSION
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Your system appears to be having trouble handling real-time audio and other tasks. You are likely to experience buffer underruns appearing as drop outs, clicks or pops. One or more DPC routines that belong to a driver running in your system appear to be executing for too long. One problem may be related to power management, disable CPU throttling settings in Control Panel and BIOS setup. Check for BIOS updates. 
LatencyMon has been analyzing your system for 0:14:17 (h:mm:ss) on all processors.


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
SYSTEM INFORMATION
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Computer name: MUSIC-PC
OS version: Windows 7 Service Pack 1, 6.1, build: 7601 (x64)
Hardware: ASUSTeK COMPUTER INC., X79-DELUXE
CPU: GenuineIntel Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4930K CPU @ 3.40GHz
Logical processors: 6
Processor groups: 1
RAM: 65474 MB total


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
CPU SPEED
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Reported CPU speed: 3402.0 MHz
Measured CPU speed: 2154.0 MHz (approx.)

Note: reported execution times may be calculated based on a fixed reported CPU speed. Disable variable speed settings like Intel Speed Step and AMD Cool N Quiet in the BIOS setup for more accurate results.


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
MEASURED INTERRUPT TO USER PROCESS LATENCIES
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
The interrupt to process latency reflects the measured interval that a usermode process needed to respond to a hardware request from the moment the interrupt service routine started execution. This includes the scheduling and execution of a DPC routine, the signaling of an event and the waking up of a usermode thread from an idle wait state in response to that event.

Highest measured interrupt to process latency (µs): 10439.134096
Average measured interrupt to process latency (µs): 3.558781

Highest measured interrupt to DPC latency (µs): 9251.439170
Average measured interrupt to DPC latency (µs): 0.669858


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
REPORTED ISRs
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Interrupt service routines are routines installed by the OS and device drivers that execute in response to a hardware interrupt signal.

Highest ISR routine execution time (µs): 98.756614
Driver with highest ISR routine execution time: dxgkrnl.sys - DirectX Graphics Kernel, Microsoft Corporation

Highest reported total ISR routine time (%): 0.085464
Driver with highest ISR total time: USBPORT.SYS - USB 1.1 & 2.0 Port Driver, Microsoft Corporation

Total time spent in ISRs (%) 0.195895

ISR count (execution time <250 µs): 2630064
ISR count (execution time 250-500 µs): 0
ISR count (execution time 500-999 µs): 0
ISR count (execution time 1000-1999 µs): 0
ISR count (execution time 2000-3999 µs): 0
ISR count (execution time >=4000 µs): 0


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
REPORTED DPCs
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
DPC routines are part of the interrupt servicing dispatch mechanism and disable the possibility for a process to utilize the CPU while it is interrupted until the DPC has finished execution.

Highest DPC routine execution time (µs): 10124.408289
Driver with highest DPC routine execution time: ataport.SYS - ATAPI Driver Extension, Microsoft Corporation

Highest reported total DPC routine time (%): 2.449004
Driver with highest DPC total execution time: ataport.SYS - ATAPI Driver Extension, Microsoft Corporation

Total time spent in DPCs (%) 3.515039

DPC count (execution time <250 µs): 9418049
DPC count (execution time 250-500 µs): 0
DPC count (execution time 500-999 µs): 524
DPC count (execution time 1000-1999 µs): 40
DPC count (execution time 2000-3999 µs): 52
DPC count (execution time >=4000 µs): 0


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
REPORTED HARD PAGEFAULTS
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Hard pagefaults are events that get triggered by making use of virtual memory that is not resident in RAM but backed by a memory mapped file on disk. The process of resolving the hard pagefault requires reading in the memory from disk while the process is interrupted and blocked from execution.

NOTE: some processes were hit by hard pagefaults. If these were programs producing audio, they are likely to interrupt the audio stream resulting in dropouts, clicks and pops. Check the Processes tab to see which programs were hit.

Process with highest pagefault count: avgrsa.exe

Total number of hard pagefaults 21533
Hard pagefault count of hardest hit process: 14702
Highest hard pagefault resolution time (µs): 309405.835097
Total time spent in hard pagefaults (%): 0.149913
Number of processes hit: 31


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
PER CPU DATA
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
CPU 0 Interrupt cycle time (s): 23.274234
CPU 0 ISR highest execution time (µs): 62.604644
CPU 0 ISR total execution time (s): 1.696370
CPU 0 ISR count: 857185
CPU 0 DPC highest execution time (µs): 10053.395356
CPU 0 DPC total execution time (s): 9.612707
CPU 0 DPC count: 5033320
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
CPU 1 Interrupt cycle time (s): 8.063885
CPU 1 ISR highest execution time (µs): 0.0
CPU 1 ISR total execution time (s): 0.0
CPU 1 ISR count: 0
CPU 1 DPC highest execution time (µs): 420.569959
CPU 1 DPC total execution time (s): 0.508648
CPU 1 DPC count: 55165
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
CPU 2 Interrupt cycle time (s): 8.629618
CPU 2 ISR highest execution time (µs): 0.0
CPU 2 ISR total execution time (s): 0.0
CPU 2 ISR count: 0
CPU 2 DPC highest execution time (µs): 142.216049
CPU 2 DPC total execution time (s): 1.830165
CPU 2 DPC count: 138318
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
CPU 3 Interrupt cycle time (s): 177.362613
CPU 3 ISR highest execution time (µs): 98.756614
CPU 3 ISR total execution time (s): 8.145927
CPU 3 ISR count: 1719403
CPU 3 DPC highest execution time (µs): 10124.408289
CPU 3 DPC total execution time (s): 165.663965
CPU 3 DPC count: 3816810
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
CPU 4 Interrupt cycle time (s): 8.096599
CPU 4 ISR highest execution time (µs): 95.103762
CPU 4 ISR total execution time (s): 0.181403
CPU 4 ISR count: 41105
CPU 4 DPC highest execution time (µs): 101.987948
CPU 4 DPC total execution time (s): 0.747835
CPU 4 DPC count: 101041
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
CPU 5 Interrupt cycle time (s): 9.779510
CPU 5 ISR highest execution time (µs): 27.264550
CPU 5 ISR total execution time (s): 0.059384
CPU 5 ISR count: 12371
CPU 5 DPC highest execution time (µs): 122.493827
CPU 5 DPC total execution time (s): 2.562603
CPU 5 DPC count: 286690
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________


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## kitekrazy (Mar 21, 2014)

Why 2 graphic cards?

Why would AMD Cool N Quiet be in the BIOS?

Check power settings in W7 to make they are set to max or whatever it is.


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## EastWest Lurker (Mar 21, 2014)

Hmmm, maybe I won't upgrade my i7 950 after all


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 21, 2014)

*Re: Performance issues on new 4930 build*

Ha... you're not going to believe what it was!

So I tried disabling all services one by one, went into the bios and switched off the wifi, bluetooth, onboard sound and turbo boost for the CPU. Nada.

Windows Update, ditched AVG... nada.

Then I read the maddest thing somewhere on the internet, about a guy in my position who found that simply putting a disc in the DVD drive solved all his problems. Totally out of ideas, I did it thinking what a waste of time it was... and that was it. In an instant, everything cleared up. The huge red bars all vanished, latency reports now near zero.

I know this is all going to give the mac supporters even more ammo!

The minor sting in the tail is that there appear to be no new drivers or firmware for this drive (Pinoeer BDR-208EBK) and its not even supported in the UK (!) So keeping a disc in really is the solution for now, I'll see if it has any side effects. How ludicrous...

Right, FINALLY I can put this new computer through its paces.


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## EastWest Lurker (Mar 21, 2014)

*Re: Performance issues on new 4930 build [SOLVED - LUDICROUS]*

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Pietro (Mar 21, 2014)

*Re: Performance issues on new 4930 build [SOLVED - LUDICROUS]*

A bit of a relief, as I've ordered my new machine, that is nearly exactly the same. Just a bit different RAM, different Blu Ray drive and graphics cards (210 instead of 610).

As for 2 graphic cards - I'm getting those too. This is the cheapest 4-monitor option with 2 DVI Dual Link ports for high resolution monitors.

- Piotr


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 21, 2014)

*Re: Performance issues on new 4930 build [SOLVED - LUDICROUS]*



Pietro @ Fri Mar 21 said:


> A bit of a relief, as I've ordered my new machine, that is nearly exactly the same. Just a bit different RAM, different Blu Ray drive and graphics cards (210 instead of 610).
> 
> As for 2 graphic cards - I'm getting those too. This is the cheapest 4-monitor option with 2 DVI Dual Link ports for high resolution monitors.
> 
> - Piotr



Good call on the different Blu Ray drive :D And thanks v v much again (Piotr was helping me brianstorm the beast). 

I'm just playing with the new template now - everything is suddenly solid as a rock. I'm on 256 and it feels like its barely awake - the performance meter was all over the place before even on something as unchallenging as going through patches. I'll load an old busy project shortly for a more realistic test.


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 21, 2014)

*Re: Performance issues on new 4930 build [SOLVED - LUDICROUS]*

Yup - super-happy now. Old Cubase projects with templates are loading at 256 (latency of 7ms in and out, more than good enough for me), no streaming issues I can hear, and peak CPU use I don't think went above 25%. A non-template electronic project with shed loads of Omnispheres, Nexus 2s, Syluses and FX peaks at about 50%. Pro Tools busy audio dubbing sessions with loads plugins hover around 20%.

I just got to remember that in order to keep this performance I've got to have Martha Marcy May Marlene sat in the Blu Ray drive. There's a tip you don't see on the Steinberg forums.


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## rgames (Mar 21, 2014)

*Re: Performance issues on new 4930 build [SOLVED - LUDICROUS]*

My experience w/ X79 Deluxe is that the BIOS is buggy - I have to leave my USB Blu-Ray drive turned off when I boot / shut down or the system hangs sometimes. I tried the "leave disk in" trick and it didn't work for me.

Seems you should be able to do better than 256 but it doesn't really matter once you get down that low.

rgames


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## Pietro (Mar 21, 2014)

*Re: Performance issues on new 4930 build [SOLVED - LUDICROUS]*



rgames @ Fri Mar 21 said:


> I have to leave my USB Blu-Ray drive turned off when I boot / shut down or the system hangs sometimes.



Perhaps the problem is that when the drive is connected, BIOS is using it as a first boot device. That should be easily fixable. Just fiddle in BIOS and see if there's a boot devices priority. Should be set to hard drive, then anything else (but I would turn everything else off anyway).

Sometimes, when PC builders install Windows for you, they set the DVD/BL drive as a first boot device, and then forget to change it to hard drive. Maybe that's also the motherboard default.

I used to have problems booting my previous machine when a USB flash drive was plugged in. It was trying to boot from it instead of hard drive. Settings in BIOS allowed me to fix this easily.

- Piotr


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## marclawsonmusic (Mar 21, 2014)

*Re: Performance issues on new 4930 build [SOLVED - LUDICROUS]*



Guy Rowland @ Fri Mar 21 said:


> I just got to remember that in order to keep this performance I've got to have Martha Marcy May Marlene sat in the Blu Ray drive. There's a tip you don't see on the Steinberg forums.



Truly unbelievable. Have you tried disabling the drive? That's gotta be a driver / BIOS issue.

Really wild... wow. (o)


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## rgames (Mar 21, 2014)

*Re: Performance issues on new 4930 build [SOLVED - LUDICROUS]*



Pietro @ Fri Mar 21 said:


> rgames @ Fri Mar 21 said:
> 
> 
> > I have to leave my USB Blu-Ray drive turned off when I boot / shut down or the system hangs sometimes.
> ...


I tried messing with that and it didn't change anything. The problem is that it just disappears from the BIOS - it doesn't show up as a boot device or non-boot device - it simply doesn't show up. Then the system hangs...

I used the drive on my previous system and it worked fine, so it's clearly a problem with the motherboard.

It's not a big deal, just an annoyance. The X79 Deluxe BIOS is just buggy. It's made for tweakers, not people who actually want to get things done.

rgames


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## mk282 (Mar 21, 2014)

I would definitely check if the BD drive is set as first priority boot drive. If so, change it so it isn't.


Also, get a Samsung BD drive.


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## Ozymandias (Mar 21, 2014)

Guy,

Out of curiosity, was this drive pre-installed in your machine? (You'd expect a DAW builder to notice a 10000µs DPC spike...)


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 21, 2014)

mk282 @ Fri Mar 21 said:


> I would definitely check if the BD drive is set as first priority boot drive. If so, change it so it isn't.



I've just set the BIOS to only "see" the C drive on booting. BD drive behaviour the same in Windows - happy when full and very grumpy when empty (much like its owner). It might hopefully stop that endless cycling when discovering drives that happens when booting up though - was exactly the same with my P67 on the previous machine.

I suspect my bonkers issue is different to Richard's hanging on boot, that sounds like a whole different hell.




Ozymandias @ Fri Mar 21 said:


> Guy,
> 
> Out of curiosity, was this drive pre-installed in your machine? (You'd expect a DAW builder to notice a 10000µs DPC spike...)



It was preinstalled. There was so much wrong with the build and install I barely know where to start, but in this case I might give them the benefit of the doubt... if a CD happened to be in the drive when they ran tests (they did run tests, didn't they?!) then all would have appeared normal. Who'd ever think to check both states?! It's a totally freaky thing.



rgames @ Fri Mar 21 said:


> Seems you should be able to do better than 256 but it doesn't really matter once you get down that low.



Yes, I agree on both counts. I nearly tested 128 but I honestly can't see much point and I'm never happier than when a system is running at 25% of capacity. That said, I definitely notice the difference between 256 and 512, which has been my standard setting til now and a very nice benefit of the new build - 512 is ok, but 256 really does sound instant to me.


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## chimuelo (Mar 21, 2014)

*Re: Performance issues on new 4930 build [SOLVED - LUDICROUS]*

What a pain this was.
I never have even heard of freinds having this kind of difficulty from a DAW builder before.
Glad you got it worked out.


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## Mahlon (Mar 21, 2014)

*Re: Performance issues on new 4930 build [SOLVED - LUDICROUS]*

Guy, I can't remember. Are you using a Babyface?

Mahlon


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 21, 2014)

*Re: Performance issues on new 4930 build [SOLVED - LUDICROUS]*



Mahlon @ Fri Mar 21 said:


> Guy, I can't remember. Are you using a Babyface?
> 
> Mahlon



Indeed - I even tried unplugging that at one point in the hunt, but of course it made no difference.

Love the Babyface and totalmix.


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## kitekrazy (Mar 21, 2014)

This is the strangest thing I've heard and lucky for you it got solved. I've thought of now having an optical drive in my next POY. It worries me in building a DAW the "ya get what you pay" is a rule of thumb.


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## Pietro (Mar 22, 2014)

kitekrazy @ Sat Mar 22 said:


> It worries me in building a DAW the "ya get what you pay" is a rule of thumb.



For top shelf parts like these, I'd expect flawless performance.

- Piotr


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 22, 2014)

kitekrazy @ Sat Mar 22 said:


> This is the strangest thing I've heard and lucky for you it got solved. I've thought of now having an optical drive in my next POY. It worries me in building a DAW the "ya get what you pay" is a rule of thumb.



Solid Hawk, who did mine, weren't cheap, but they weren't super-expensive either. They had a flawless reputation as a dedicated DAW builder, but in the end they may as well have poured a sack of gravel in with the components after their first build.

Then they replaced the faulty power supply with one at half the price without telling me... sheesh. After a lot of back and forth they finally delivered a good daw in terms of the physical build, but I don't think it was set up especially well in windows. For example they'd set up 64GB of virtual memory on the C drive and 45gb allocated for hibernation - that 240gb boot drive was two thirds full without anything installed.

etc etc

Anyway, it's pretty good now.... strangely although the C drive is benchmarking well, it seems quite slow in practice. Off to play around some more...

EDIT - on the last point, all is well, just a wrong project setting in Cubase was making stuff load slowly.


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## Daryl (Mar 22, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Sat Mar 22 said:


> kitekrazy @ Sat Mar 22 said:
> 
> 
> > This is the strangest thing I've heard and lucky for you it got solved. I've thought of now having an optical drive in my next POY. It worries me in building a DAW the "ya get what you pay" is a rule of thumb.
> ...


Where did you hear about them? You are the only person I've ever heard mention their name. I also can't find them in the Companies House register, so they must be trading under a different name from their company name. Do you know how long have they been in operation?

D


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 22, 2014)

Daryl @ Sat Mar 22 said:


> Where did you hear about them? You are the only person I've ever heard mention their name. I also can't find them in the Companies House register, so they must be trading under a different name from their company name. Do you know how long have they been in operation?
> 
> D



Hi Daryl - Solid Hawk had the most poll recommendations in SCOREcast London's forum in a post about new builds. Here's their website - https://www.solidhawk.co.uk/ . There's sections there about the company and lots of laudatory quotes from happy customers via Trust Pilot. I guess they must be registered under another name at Companies House (?)


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## Pietro (Mar 22, 2014)

Just installing Windows on mine. Keep your fingers crossed :D.

- Piotr


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## khollister (Mar 22, 2014)

I had a similar experience with a (yup, Pioneer) BD drive I put in the 2010 MP. The drive would periodically try to access a disc if I don't keep a blank disc in it.

I have a LG BD in my 4930 box with no issues.


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 22, 2014)

Good luck Piotr!

Interesting, Keith. The Pioneer is actually considerably more expensive than the Samsung or LGs I've just looked up - so looks like (as I've long suspected) you really don't always get what you pay for. Thus far at least there's been no side effects of leaving a disc in - if it stays that way and continues to work normally otherwise I'll just leave it as is I think.


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## mk282 (Mar 22, 2014)

I'd definitely swap that Pioneer if I were you, Guy. Just because. :D


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## Pietro (Mar 23, 2014)

*Re: Performance issues on new 4930 build [SOLVED - LUDICROUS]*

So far so good!

What used to be impossible to play at 30ms latency with my old PC and E-MU 0404 USB, is now playing in real time just fine at 10ms . The CPU has still some headroom (30-40%). Though the ASIO metter is peaking at times (still very workable).

Can't wait to plug in my new Fireface UCX on tuesday. I'm hoping for some further improvements on the ASIO load field with that new interface.

No constant issues with latencies over here. Some very sparse random spikes a couple of times an hour, sometimes none. It's cool and quiet here and so far I'm happy. Finally I can get back to work. A lot to catch up after crappy 3 weeks!

- Piotr


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 23, 2014)

Excellent news Piotr!


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## rgames (Mar 23, 2014)

*Re: Performance issues on new 4930 build [SOLVED - LUDICROUS]*



Pietro @ Sun Mar 23 said:


> Some very sparse random spikes a couple of times an hour, sometimes none.


That's my experience, too, with the 4930k and X79 Deluxe. So if you figure out how to make it go away, please let us know. It's not a real problem, just an annoyance.

It must be the motherboard/BIOS because I'm using exactly the same hardware and software that I did on my i7 920 and it never did that, even when running my full template at ~3 ms.

EDIT: actually, there is one difference: my i7 920 had a PCI firewire card and my new machine has a different PCIe firewire card. Since I'm using a Fireface 800 for audio, that could be the cause. Also, the external BD that is causing my system to hang is an LG. I have an internal LG that works fine.

rgames


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 23, 2014)

How do you guys monitor the ASIO meter? I've not noticed anything audible yet.


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## rgames (Mar 23, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Sun Mar 23 said:


> How do you guys monitor the ASIO meter? I've not noticed anything audible yet.


I just do it by ear - sometimes I go days with no pops/stutters then one day, working on the same project, I'll get a couple pops/stutters every hour. For me, the behavior is the same with buffers between 64 and 1024, so it's probably not related to the sound card.

I wish I could just ignore it because it really doesn't matter, but my anal-retentiveness comes out in full force every time it happens and I waste time trying to find the pattern that links it to the last time it happened...

rgames


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## Pietro (Mar 23, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Sun Mar 23 said:


> How do you guys monitor the ASIO meter? I've not noticed anything audible yet.



In Cubase you have that Performance metter (F12 key), which shows ASIO load - realtime and average (including peaks). Realtime peak gives me a short glitch. If average load peaks, then the audio is nothing but a continuous glitch.

Regarding the occasional latency spikes, I have a hunch it's either bluetooth or wi-fi, which I don't use (I prefer it over wire). Also, I noticed, when left for too long, DPC latency checker is going nuts with continuous, super high peaks. Which are mysteriously gone when you just close it and reopen.

- Piotr


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## DenisT (Mar 23, 2014)

*Re: Performance issues on new 4930 build [SOLVED - LUDICROUS]*

Wow, we are on the same boat, Guy. Just build my new computer with the exact same Mobo and CPU. Here is mine :

CPU Intel S2011 6 Core - i7 4930K
RAM G.Skill RipJaws Z Series 32 Go (4 x 8 Go) DDR3 1866 MHz CL10
HD 2 x Western Digital Caviar Black 2 To SATA 6Gb/s
SSD Samsung SSD 840 EVO 120 Go
SSD Samsung SSD 840 EVO 500 Go
Noctua NH-D14 SE2011
GPU ASUS GeForce GTX 780 DirectCU II OC PCI-E N
Fractal Design Define R4
PSU Seasonic X-750 (SS-750KM3) 80PLUS Gold
Windows 8.1 64bit

LatencyMon gave me the exact same message. But I have to RMA the X79-Deluxe since the wi-fi is unusable, and the BIOS update failed. So I can't even boot the computer...yay! :lol: 

I'll try the DVD-thing, I'll let you know if it worked for me when I'll get my rig back on track.

BTW, did you update the BIOS without any trouble ? I used the Flashback option, and it failed :mrgreen:


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 23, 2014)

Piotr - gotya, yes that is what I've been looking at. I know there's discussion of VST performance and ASIO being different, just checking I was looking at the right thing.

Denis - funnily enough, my wifi is terrible too, but I hear its standard for the mobo to never really work. I've decided to let that go. But a non-booting board is a more serious state of affairs, I agree. I haven't used the flash update, just the stuff from the Asus site via Windows, that's been fine.

What drive do you use? I'd be surprised if it was the same thing, I figure mine is a pretty rare fault since no-one here seems to have heard of this before.


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## DenisT (Mar 23, 2014)

*Re: Performance issues on new 4930 build [SOLVED - LUDICROUS]*

I use an Asus optical drive : http://www.asus.com/Optical_Drives/BC12D2HT/


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## Pietro (Mar 23, 2014)

I have a 3 years old LG Blu Ray and it runs with no problems (though I've never actually had any Blu ray discs in it).

I had my BIOS updated with a BIOS programmer (hardware thingy), as part of the PC assembly service. I read about the unfortunate USB Flashbacks before I bought the motherboard. It can still be updated with a programmer tool. BIOS chip is removable and replaceable.

Denis, do you have 8x4GB or 4x8? I had to go with a slim CPU cooler (U14S) in order to have all 8 RAM slots be safely populated by high profile memory sticks (I have a 64 quad set 8x8GB Kingston HyperX Beast)

- Piotr


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 24, 2014)

*Re: Performance issues on new 4930 build [SOLVED - LUDICROUS]*

Huh - this is interesting. While I was (again) working on the new template, I started noting the ASIO spikes and thought it was what Richard and Piotr might be reporting. But then they started getting very frequent and weren't reported by DPC latency checker, so figured it was something else.

And it was... turns out its the instance of Play I put into Cubase directly. Hosted in VE Pro 4 it seems to behave impeccably, but it makes my C 7.5.1 go ASIO nuts. Switching it off at the rack makes everything come good.

Should I be fiddling with the engine settings or something? (ah, this takes me back). Otherwise my options are to forget Play again (though I always used to be able to load Play 3 on an adhoc basis without trouble) or host a coupled instance in VE Pro (which stands apart from the permanent template, and will thus save locally with the project).

EDIT - a quick Google says Play 4 and Cubase 7 don't play nice at least in windows 7 - can others here confirm?


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## Pietro (Mar 24, 2014)

*Re: Performance issues on new 4930 build [SOLVED - LUDICROUS]*

Strange. I don't get any special ASIO spikes from PLAY compared to other VSTs. Even a single instrument from AEON Melodic in Kontakt can bring my ASIO realtime up to 50%. It doesn't necessarily translate to two instruments=100%. Not sure how it works really. Whole very busy arrangment, that I wasn't able to play before is about 70-80% realtime, and it uses Hollywood Strings and Brass (and layered with Symphobia, LASS, Cinebrass).

I think, as long as it doesn't spike frequently for no reason, we should be ok. But I see yours is spiking with nearly nothing playing?

- Piotr


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 24, 2014)

*Re: Performance issues on new 4930 build [SOLVED - LUDICROUS]*



Pietro @ Mon Mar 24 said:


> Strange. I don't get any special ASIO spikes from PLAY compared to other VSTs. Even a single instrument from AEON Melodic in Kontakt can bring my ASIO realtime up to 50%. It doesn't necessarily translate to two instruments=100%. Not sure how it works really. Whole very busy arrangment, that I wasn't able to play before is about 70-80% realtime, and it uses Hollywood Strings and Brass (and layered with Symphobia, LASS, Cinebrass).
> 
> I think, as long as it doesn't spike frequently for no reason, we should be ok. But I see yours is spiking with nearly nothing playing?
> 
> - Piotr



Yes, it's a pretty definitive test here. I've just loaded an adhoc instance of VE Pro coupled, and all is well with real time peaks hovering around 25%. As a final check, I then switched on the local instance in the Instrument rack, waited 10 seconds and VOOOOM - ASIO peaks hit 100%, with nothing playing.

Our systems are pretty similar, its odd that we get totally different results. I guess these things can depend on graphics drivers or anything though.

It's a minor pain to go through VE Pro, only mainly because as I update the main template I have to remember to close the Cubase project first, or else it will save the adhoc Play instance with the rest of the template. Also I may need to turn up the buffer on old projects that use Play.


----------



## Pietro (Mar 24, 2014)

Just one thing to check. Cubase empty project is defaulted to 88.2KHz. For me, anything at 88.2KHz eventually goes ASIO wild, often with nothing playing on this and previous machines. I have to switch interface and project settings to 44.1KHz, then it's all normal. But I'm gonna test your situation later today, though I don't use VEP.

I've also left some drivers not installed but have my nVidia drivers up to date.

Regarding Wi-fi. I'm not using it, I prefer to go over wire, but I see the motherboard has an external antena, which you may want to plug in to improve your signal detection.

- Piotr


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## DenisT (Mar 24, 2014)

Pietro @ Mon Mar 24 said:


> Denis, do you have 8x4GB or 4x8? I had to go with a slim CPU cooler (U14S) in order to have all 8 RAM slots be safely populated by high profile memory sticks (I have a 64 quad set 8x8GB Kingston HyperX Beast)
> 
> - Piotr



Right now I have 4 x 8Go (32Go), but I think I should get 8x8Go since Hollywood Strings is pretty huge. >8o


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 24, 2014)

Pietro @ Mon Mar 24 said:


> Just one thing to check. Cubase empty project is defaulted to 88.2KHz. For me, anything at 88.2KHz eventually goes ASIO wild, often with nothing playing on this and previous machines. I have to switch interface and project settings to 44.1KHz, then it's all normal. But I'm gonna test your situation later today, though I don't use VEP.
> 
> I've also left some drivers not installed but have my nVidia drivers up to date.
> 
> ...



Sample rate - I'm on 44.1. (tangent - I found the other day that Toontrak really doesn't like 48k - takes 1m to load a kit at 48, 8 secs at 44.1!)

Wifi - it worked initially (after an hour or two of getting the new drivers and config) then it's never worked since (though its enabled, says its connected and I have the antanne in). Just google it - basically the wifi is crap, everyone agrees. Not fit for purpose, so I've just disabled it.

There's always something, isn't there? I'm currently fighting with the EuCon which, suddenly, has stopped auto-banking in Cubase. Pro Tools ok, set up ok, got rid of it in devices and reconnected... sigh. I must have composed for nearly 90 minutes before this ground me to a halt.


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## mk282 (Mar 24, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ 24.3.2014 said:


> (tangent - I found the other day that Toontrak really doesn't like 48k - takes 1m to load a kit at 48, 8 secs at 44.1!)



Because they're resampling the samples while loading to match the project, it takes longer to load.


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 24, 2014)

mk282 @ Mon Mar 24 said:


> Guy Rowland @ 24.3.2014 said:
> 
> 
> > (tangent - I found the other day that Toontrak really doesn't like 48k - takes 1m to load a kit at 48, 8 secs at 44.1!)
> ...



Indeed.

Found my EuCon problem - Cubase preferences "sync project window to mix console". Quite logical really.


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## Pietro (Mar 24, 2014)

*Re: Performance issues on new 4930 build [SOLVED - LUDICROUS]*

As a follow-up. Everything seems fine over here, including PLAY, and Kontakt 5.3.10. No sturdy ASIO spikes for no reason, nothing crashed yet (knock on wood!), even E-MU 0404 USB which used to give me BSoD once in a while.

My wi-fi works too, when I connect the antena. It's obviously slower than lan cable (twice as slow, according to speedtes), but I can see it being usable. I get nearly full signal from a router that is behind a thick wall and 7 meters in straight line from the computer.

But it's really surprising, after buying a top of the line motherboard, you'd think there should be nothing crappy about it. Yet some experience issues like broken BIOS flash or missing Wi-Fi. 

Anyway, so far all is well. Tomorrow I check the difference with RME connected and compare ASIO performance. Can't wait to hear and see it!

- Piotr


----------



## rgames (Mar 24, 2014)

*Re: Performance issues on new 4930 build [SOLVED - LUDICROUS]*



Pietro @ Mon Mar 24 said:


> But it's really surprising, after buying a top of the line motherboard, you'd think there should be nothing crappy about it. Yet some experience issues like broken BIOS flash or missing Wi-Fi.


You need to consider ASUS' market - the benchmarkers. The X79 Deluxe is designed to provide countless hours of tweak options that are measured against performance on synthetic benchmarks. It is not intended to be a productivity enhancer (which is why high-end computers rarely use tweaker motherboards).

Tweakers know the wireless connection is crap, and the USB connections are not the best, and the BIOS is not the most stable, but they don't care. Correspondingly, ASUS doesn't put much emphasis on those peripherals.

It used to be the case that tweaker motherboards were best for DAW use because the tweaks helped improve DAW performance. But the advantage of those tweaks disappeared several years ago, so the benefit of tweaker motherboards has diminshed.

The result is that the X79 Deluxe and other tweaker boards might not be the best choice for DAW use. However, they're certainly "good enough".

rgames


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## Pietro (Mar 24, 2014)

*Re: Performance issues on new 4930 build [SOLVED - LUDICROUS]*

It's interesting. The reason I picked this motherboard was that it seemed to be targeted at professional users. The lot of SATA ports, LAN and WiFi options, bluetooth, tweaking possibilities, good reviews and a promiss of longevity. But also, it wasn't specially advertised for gamers, like Sabertooth or Rampage, which is what I would never trust for a DAW as a thing too much focused on overclocking options and all that crap.

So it wasn't one of those super gaming motherboards, I would expect it to be rock solid without useless fireworks and stuff.

Anyway, for me so far it's working very well. Feels good to see offline export progress bar in Cubase move so fast :D.

One non-hardware (I think) related problem I've noticed is when I try to render audio after a while working on a project, Cubase gives me an error and needs to close down. I can reload the project and render right away with no error after that. It happened on my previous PC, but only on a fresh Windows install. Not sure what could be causing this. I'm gonna have to look at the crash logs.

- Piotr


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 25, 2014)

*Re: Performance issues on new 4930 build [SOLVED - LUDICROUS]*



Pietro @ Mon Mar 24 said:


> It's interesting. The reason I picked this motherboard was that it seemed to be targeted at professional users. The lot of SATA ports, LAN and WiFi options, bluetooth, tweaking possibilities, good reviews and a promiss of longevity. But also, it wasn't specially advertised for gamers, like Sabertooth or Rampage, which is what I would never trust for a DAW as a thing too much focused on overclocking options and all that crap.
> 
> So it wasn't one of those super gaming motherboards, I would expect it to be rock solid without useless fireworks and stuff.
> 
> ...



Yes, I agree on your mobo comments - Richard, I think you're slightly overstating the case that the deluxe is purely for overclockers (the Rampage IV most obviously fits that bill). While it does have a lot of tweaker options, the feature set suggests much broader appeal. In short, its not unreasonable to expect things to work smoothly. For me they do, with the exception of wifi. And some of those tweaks are useful for setting up fan speeds etc.

I've not encountered or heard of that render issue Piotr. Strange you had it on the previous PC and this one.

Today is RME day, isn't it? Let us know how it goes....


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## Pietro (Mar 25, 2014)

RME plugged in. I can work at 512 buffer. Lower is still workable, but with frequent ASIO spikes and glithces. Tried this on the same big project as before.. The improvement over E-MU 0404 USB isn't as big as I was hoping for. Like maybe up to 10% at similar latencies . Still, much better than UR28M, that I had to return due to incredibly crappy ASIO performance (worse than E-MU!).

The sound is great. Most of its features are an overkill for me, but I can see them being usable in the future. Almost killed my speakers (and neighbours). I'm a noob :D.

- Piotr


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 25, 2014)

Pietro @ Tue Mar 25 said:


> RME plugged in. I can work at 512 buffer. Lower is still workable, but with frequent ASIO spikes and glithces. Tried this on the same big project as before.. The improvement over E-MU 0404 USB isn't as big as I was hoping for. Like maybe up to 10% at similar latencies . Still, much better than UR28M, that I had to return due to incredibly crappy ASIO performance (worse than E-MU!).
> 
> The sound is great. Most of its features are an overkill for me, but I can see them being usable in the future. Almost killed my speakers (and neighbours). I'm a noob :D.
> 
> - Piotr



Interesting. Wonder where those spikes are coming from? Worth turning some stuff on and off at the rack to see if there's a single culprit?

For comparison, hosted in cubase I have

2x Omni
4x Nexus2
1x Stylus
EZD
1x Kontakt 5
1x Engine
2x SIR2 instances
Various undemanding Waves plugins

And VE Pro:
7 fully stocked 8 channel instances, mostly K4 and K5, 2 Play (1 for saving in each project), 1 engine
The most demaning library I think is LASS 2 (reverbs disabled).

And 256 seems pretty effortless.


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## Diffusor (Mar 25, 2014)

Yeah, I've seen dvd/cd rom issues a lot in the past. Namely, Autorun.... Turning that off can fix glitches. Crazy I know. I think it was because the system was constantly querying the dvd-rom to see if it had any media. Guy, try turning off Autorun. Maybe the reason it stops when you have a disc in is that it doesn't query if there is a disc in.

Secondly, as far as DPC Latency, I suggest not running any Nvidia drivers. They are garbage for the most part for audio work and will cause DPC issues I have found, since they prioritize video for gaming. I just run the generic Microsoft graphics drivers for my NVS450 with 3 monitors and it's flawless; solved some DPC spikes I was having. I run my DAW with VE Pro slaves at a 128k buffer and it's rock solid.


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 25, 2014)

Diffusor @ Tue Mar 25 said:


> Yeah, I've seen dvd/cd rom issues a lot in the past. Namely, Autorun.... Turning that off can fix glitches. Crazy I know. I think it was because the system was constantly querying the dvd-rom to see if it had any media. Guy, try turning off Autorun. Maybe the reason it stops when you have a disc in is that it doesn't query if there is a disc in.
> 
> Secondly, as far as DPC Latency, I suggest not running any Nvidia drivers. They are garbage for the most part for audio work and will cause DPC issues I have found, since they prioritize video for gaming. I just run the generic Microsoft graphics drivers for my NVS450 with 3 monitors and it's flawless; solved some DPC spikes I was having. I run my DAW with VE Pro slaves at a 128k buffer and it's rock solid.



Good thought re autoplay - just tried it though and it doesn't make any difference in my case.

I'm on the nVidia drivers from 2012 (I read that era plays much nicer with audio). No glitches or issues for me, everything flawless as long as there's a disc in the drive (!) Might be worth you trying an older or generic driver though, Piotr?


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## Diffusor (Mar 25, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Tue Mar 25 said:


> Diffusor @ Tue Mar 25 said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, I've seen dvd/cd rom issues a lot in the past. Namely, Autorun.... Turning that off can fix glitches. Crazy I know. I think it was because the system was constantly querying the dvd-rom to see if it had any media. Guy, try turning off Autorun. Maybe the reason it stops when you have a disc in is that it doesn't query if there is a disc in.
> ...



That's cool. On my last two systems, a x58 and my new x79 rig, no Nvidia driver played nice including the older ones. Just came to realization if you don't play games you really don't need anything fancy in specialized video drivers.


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## Pietro (Mar 25, 2014)

Hm... It doesn't seem to be graphics oriented really. I think it's one of the plugins. I have like 6 QL Spaces in that project, some with very long impulses and additional delays on it.

But how do you install "generic" drivers? Windows Update installs latest nVidia drivers anyway.

- Piotr


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## Diffusor (Mar 25, 2014)

Pietro @ Tue Mar 25 said:


> Hm... It doesn't seem to be graphics oriented really. I think it's one of the plugins. I have like 6 QL Spaces in that project, some with very long impulses and additional delays on it.
> 
> But how do you install "generic" drivers? Windows Update installs latest nVidia drivers anyway.
> 
> - Piotr




Unistall Nvidia drivers in Control Panel. Go to the root of C: drive and delete the Nvidia folder; if you don't Windows will search here and install the same drivers. Also delete any Nvidia folders left over in your Program folder. Turn off auto update in Windows Update. Then restart and let Windows install the drivers. It shouldn't grab the Nvidia branded drivers but Microsoft ones. If you are still having problems installing turn off your network card and repeat the process.


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## Pietro (Mar 25, 2014)

Sorry, as a word of warning:

I checked, and those are exactly the same drivers, only that when installing from nVidia installer, you can chose what NOT to install, while Windows Update will automaticaly do typical installation with all the crap you don't want.

And for me, after it installed, it says it's not installed properly and says to try again (I have two cards, maybe that's the cause of it). Going to uninstall it and reinstall from the original installer. This didn't work well.

- Piotr


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 25, 2014)

Pietro @ Tue Mar 25 said:


> Sorry, as a word of warning:
> 
> I checked, and those are exactly the same drivers, only that when installing from nVidia installer, you can chose what NOT to install, while Windows Update will automaticaly do typical installation with all the crap you don't want.
> 
> ...



Try the previous version from 2012 - that seems to have solved a lot of people's sound-related issues from reading around.


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## Diffusor (Mar 25, 2014)

Pietro @ Tue Mar 25 said:


> Sorry, as a word of warning:
> 
> I checked, and those are exactly the same drivers, only that when installing from nVidia installer, you can chose what NOT to install, while Windows Update will automaticaly do typical installation with all the crap you don't want.
> 
> ...



What did the Device Manager say the video cards driver was under the Driver panel? It should say something like "Microsoft WDDM....2009" or some such, not Nvidia. Sounds to me like it's still getting the Nvidia driver from somewhere. When I did it it didn't install any extras or Nvidia control panel.


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## Pietro (Mar 25, 2014)

*Re: Performance issues on new 4930 build [SOLVED - LUDICROUS]*

Windows update was named "nVidia - WDD something" already. My guess is, unless you have a very old card (or none), it's installing the drivers supplied to Microsoft by nVidia.

Either way, I'm not getting DPC Latency spikes, everything runs between 50-70 (I think micro seconds?). I'm just getting sporadic ASIO spikes during playback of bigger projects. Why would I blame graphics driver for it?

Guy, what was the CUDA problem for you?

- Piotr


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 25, 2014)

I thiiiink you're right, if latency is ok it's unlikely to be the graphics. I can't remember where I read about cuda and audio now - worth a google though.


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## Diffusor (Mar 25, 2014)

*Re: Performance issues on new 4930 build [SOLVED - LUDICROUS]*



Pietro @ Tue Mar 25 said:


> Windows update was named "nVidia - WDD something" already. My guess is, unless you have a very old card (or none), it's installing the drivers supplied to Microsoft by nVidia.
> 
> Either way, I'm not getting DPC Latency spikes, everything runs between 50-70 (I think micro seconds?). I'm just getting sporadic ASIO spikes during playback of bigger projects. Why would I blame graphics driver for it?
> 
> ...



Are you running VE Pro on slaves when you get these ASIO spikes? I was having the same happening with perfect DPC Latency. Ended up being a network card setting. Disabling Interrupt Moderation solved those for me; also tuned off all Green Ethernet energy saving stuff. Jumbo frames was also causing some network audio dropouts so I disabled that as well. Since I made all these tweaks I can run my x79 DAW system at a 128k audio buffer with 2 VE Pro buffers.


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## Pietro (Mar 26, 2014)

I don't use VE Pro, I host plugins in Cubase.

And unfortunately, since 7.5, opening Kontakt window causes a short Cubase interface freeze and realtime ASIO spike even if nothing is playing. This happened before on either ATI or nVidia on my previous computer. This doesn't happen with PLAY, Omnisphere, minimoog or some other plugins. So most likely, VE Pro handles these situations better.

I have some Valhallas and QL Spaces instances in that project, I'm testing with. But the spikes, besides the ones from recalling Kontakt windows may be related to Cinebrass. Maybe mic positions or something, I don't know. It's not very bad, but slighly worrying, especially that CPU load is at 50-60% max and I'm getting these.

I'm gonna try updating the Marvell drivers. Maybe something about it, I think the drive with Cinebrass is connected to it.

- Piotr
edit:
Oh and thanks, regarding network and power saving. Everything is set to best performance, no power saving. I've uninstalled and disabled Wifi and Bluetooth too.


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## Pietro (Mar 26, 2014)

*Re: Performance issues on new 4930 build [SOLVED - LUDICROUS]*

Ok, a bit of further testing over here. It seems that Cubase 7.5.x and Kontakt 5.3.x don't like each other too much. I installed trial of VE Pro 5, and loaded Kontakt with a single patch of Minimal 24bit Fast patterns. Then I made an instrument track in Cubase with the same, and rack instrument, with the same.

I press one chord and see what happens.

*Kontakt as instrument track * - one chord, BAM! 100% ASIO spike, then settles at around 20% realtime ASIO. Switching patterns using presets makes a spike for each switch, resulting in soft clicks, short glitches.

*Kontakt as rack instrument* - one chord, BAM! The same, then settles around 15% realtime ASIO. Still clicks and glitches.

*VE Pro *- ASIO metter barely even moves. If I hold the keys to keep it playing - all good, barely 2-3% realtime load. So little, it's difficult to tell exactly. Audio is rock solid even if I switch patterns like crazy while it keeps playing.

I think it's about time I give VEP more thought :D.

And even though, I like and use some of the new features in Cubase 7.5, I think they screwed something up in there. Everything started falling apart since that version (and Kontakt 5.3 of course, which is another story).

- Piotr


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## apessino (Mar 26, 2014)

*Re: Performance issues on new 4930 build [SOLVED - LUDICROUS]*

I use Cubase 7.5.1 on Win7 with LOTS of Kontakt 5.3 instances and have none of the problems you are experiencing (I use VEPro for some projects and load directly in Cubase for others).

It is something with your system... I'd keep looking if I were you. 8) Maybe your audio interface?


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## Pietro (Mar 26, 2014)

*Re: Performance issues on new 4930 build [SOLVED - LUDICROUS]*

Hm... Do you have Minimal to verify this? Normal, multisampled instruments don't do it.

Audio interface is new, just received it yesterday. It's supposedly great with ASIO (RME Fireface UCX via USB). I may try different USB port if that makes any difference.

To me it seems like software issue... Why would VEP work flawless, while Kontakt in Cubase spiked with just one pattern triggered? I'm open to test other ideas.

- Piotr


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## apessino (Mar 26, 2014)

*Re: Performance issues on new 4930 build [SOLVED - LUDICROUS]*

Sorry, I don't have Minimal... I didn't realize the problem was confined to that library. 

I do have Da Capo, is that close enough? :D


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## Diffusor (Mar 26, 2014)

*Re: Performance issues on new 4930 build [SOLVED - LUDICROUS]*



Pietro @ Wed Mar 26 said:


> Hm... Do you have Minimal to verify this? Normal, multisampled instruments don't do it.
> 
> Audio interface is new, just received it yesterday. It's supposedly great with ASIO (RME Fireface UCX via USB). I may try different USB port if that makes any difference.
> 
> ...



What are your Multiprocessing settings in Kontakt? If it's off try it on, and vice versa.


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## Pietro (Mar 26, 2014)

I will try this with other libraries tomorrow. But I can already see, plugins via VEP take much less ASIO load for some reason.

I have multiprocessing on. Will try that off.

CPU actually doesn't spike. It has still a lot of headroom, I'm looking at performance window metters (not the same as the one at transport bar).

Tomorrow I will continue. In the meantime, it doesn't stop me from working. Everything plays rather smoothly despites these ASIO spikes under some conditions.

- Piotr


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 26, 2014)

Pietro @ Wed Mar 26 said:


> I will try this with other libraries tomorrow. But I can already see, plugins via VEP take much less ASIO load for some reason.



For me that's always been true on multiple machines. A couple of years ago I tried loading LASS 2 into Cubase direct and it sorta fell over. Ditto Sonar (I think that was even worse). But VEP - it just sails through effortlessly.


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## Pietro (Mar 26, 2014)

Yeah, so it seems!

And again it's a surprise. Previously I had UR28M for a moment. One would think it would have great ASIO drivers. Steinberg, the inventor of ASIO, but nope .

Now one would think, Steinberg Cubase would handle VST best. VST, the invention of Steinberg :D. But nope, VEP seems to handle it far better.

This is crazy.

- Piotr


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 26, 2014)

*Re: Performance issues on new 4930 build [SOLVED - LUDICROUS]*

Yeah, it is a curious thing and your logic is impeccable. What do VSL do so right that others can't seem to manage?

I'm still on VEP 4 - I haven't seen anything in VEP 5 that I'd really need - and it's absolutely stunning really.

BTW, a minor tangent, but is it generally figured Kontakt 5.3.1 is an improvement on 5.3.0 for Windows users? I hear Session Strings doesn't load. I only have 1 track in my template (for those disco scoops and falls), but I could live without it for a bit if it made everything else more stable.


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## Pietro (Mar 27, 2014)

*Re: Performance issues on new 4930 build [SOLVED - LUDICROUS]*

Ok a few more tests. Let's do Da Capo:

I load 24bit all sections patch. Don't change anything in it. Just play one note and observe the performance window:

Kontakt as *instrument track *or rack -> spike 25% on note on and 15% on note off.
Kontakt in VEP -> barely any movement. Difficult to say if there's anything playing. ASIO is rock solid.

Cinebrass Pro, 12 horns. Press sus pedal and play as much and fast as possible. Bring it to max of 300 voices.

instrument track -> easily goes up to 100% realtime ASIO (at 256 buffer). CPU load (task manager) shows around 20% at most.
VEP -> realtime peak is barely moving, the average load goes up to 5%. Same CPU load.

Can you guys try this yourself and post your results? Remember to look at your performance window, not ASIO metter on transport bar.

Thanks!
- Piotr


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 27, 2014)

*Re: Performance issues on new 4930 build [SOLVED - LUDICROUS]*



Pietro @ Thu Mar 27 said:


> Ok a few more tests. Let's do Da Capo:
> 
> I load 24bit all sections patch. Don't change anything in it. Just play one note and observe the performance window:
> 
> ...



Yup, ditto - identical results.


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## apessino (Mar 27, 2014)

*Re: Performance issues on new 4930 build [SOLVED - LUDICROUS]*

Yes, same here. That is what you get, but... what is the problem again? You are comparing entirely different things.

For starters, load measurement is an estimate, the degree of precision of which is dependent on a multitude of program-specific parameters. We don't even know how VE Pro or Cubase do their calculation. This is a million times more complicated still in multicore architectures.

The green load in Cubase and the CPU load percentage in VE Pro are smoothed out over a significant interval - any high frequency oscillations are lost, so they remain low and relatively stable. If these go high then you have a real problem...

The blue bar, on the other hand, is a short term peak held for a little while. The fact that it spikes does not mean anything at all just that a noisy bit of activity is happening. Of course it is going to bump when you press a note. AFAIK VE Pro does not have a similar readout (and again, even if it did the comparison would be moot).

Everything worked fine for me even with the 12 horns blasting at 300 voices. While I use and love VE Pro I cannot say that I have seen a significant improvement in CPU performance over just running the instances in Cubase. It sure isn't obvious, at least.

I would not worry about the read outs unless you are having some pops or dropouts or other symptoms of CPU overload.


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 28, 2014)

Appeasino - interesting, but it's never been purely esoteric for me (as mentioned above). LASS 2 falls over in Cubase, is perfectly happy in VE Pro . I think it's widely accepted that VE pro is the most efficient host out there.


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## Pietro (Mar 28, 2014)

Yes, thanks for testing!

I understand realtime ASIO should show activity, though I am not looking at the performance window out of pure curiosity. It's because while hosted directly in Cubase, such tests result in audio artifacts and I have to raise buffer, while VEP seems to handle it completely effortlessly, even if I lower the buffer.

Big projects don't do glitch-free on this machine, and they should. The CPU runs at 50-60% max.

So my conclusion is, in big projects with loads of stuff going on, I should be hosting Kontakt in VEP, to smoothen out and maximize performance.

- Piotr


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 28, 2014)

Agreed, Piotr. Its a very interesting test, must admit I didn't think it was quite as marked a difference as its turned out to be, but VE Pro is the way to go for demanding stuff.

Did you try the same test with any of Play, VSL, Engine btw? As I said earlier, Play 4 even doing nothing is a disaster here in Cubase, but super-chilled in VEP.


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## Pietro (Mar 28, 2014)

Haha. Let's switch. I give you my PLAY working just fine, and you give me your projects not freezing while loading. Deal?

If I do the same test with Hollywood Brass and bring horns legatos to 300 voices, I only get like a 15-20% increase in realtime ASIO. For a "phrase" like this, I think that's quite fair.

I'm gonna test this later more in details, when I finish project, that I couldn't load yesterday. I think it was Da Capo causing it. Maybe I have corrupted files or something, like you suggested. Sometimes it works to just remove it, let the project load without it, then move it back and reload. It's one of the biggest mysteries for me.

- Piotr


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## DenisT (Apr 3, 2014)

I'll get a brand new X-79 Deluxe Mobo in the next few days (for free), the one I had was litteraly dead because of my unsuccessful BIOS update (but the store didn't know that) :mrgreen: Oops.


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## Pietro (Apr 3, 2014)

ASUS knows they had a faulty BIOS Flashback function, so I think they are accepting the returns because of this.

- Piotr


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## devastat (Apr 3, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Fri Mar 28 said:


> Did you try the same test with any of Play, VSL, Engine btw? As I said earlier, Play 4 even doing nothing is a disaster here in Cubase, but super-chilled in VEP.


I'm also experiencing ASIO spikes with the latest version of Play 4 in Cubase 7.5 while doing nothing. 

Interestingly enough, downgrading to version 4.0.23 makes the ASIO spikes to disappear in my case.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 3, 2014)

Weird, huh? Piotr, you're definitely on Play 4.1.8 and Cubase 7.5.1? Weird how some folks get these things and some don't.

I decided rather than spend a month tracking it all down, I'd just host in VE Pro. Like the background loading so I'll stick on this version until / unless a fix comes along for those of us afflicted.


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## Pietro (Apr 4, 2014)

I'm on PLAY 4.1.8 64 bit and Cubase 7.5.10 64bit. This is weird. Can you guys make a screenshot or video with this problem? Or a way to reproduce?

If I just open PLAY in Cubase with nothing in it, my ASIO metter's peak is one or two pixels wide.

- Piotr


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 4, 2014)

I'm away for a few days Piotr, but I can do one next week.


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## guitarman1960 (Apr 5, 2014)

As someone who is just ordering a new PC build using an i74770k with 32Gb Ram I must say I'm pretty shocked and disturbed by all these problems you guys are having on much much higher specc'ed machines!
I'm still on Cubase 5 at the moment, although have also been experimenting with Reaper, and I have to say I can load and run smoothly many many more tracks of Kontakt libraries in Reaper even on my old laptop!

How much of these problems are really Cubase? When you think how much Cubase costs and how little Reaper costs it's shocking that in some ways Reaper actually seems to perform better.


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## kitekrazy (Apr 5, 2014)

guitarman1960 @ Sat Apr 05 said:


> As someone who is just ordering a new PC build using an i74770k with 32Gb Ram I must say I'm pretty shocked and disturbed by all these problems you guys are having on much much higher specc'ed machines!
> I'm still on Cubase 5 at the moment, although have also been experimenting with Reaper, and *I have to say I can load and run smoothly many many more tracks of Kontakt libraries in Reaper even on my old laptop!*
> 
> How much of these problems are really Cubase? When you think how much Cubase costs and how little Reaper costs it's shocking that in some ways Reaper actually seems to perform better.



That is where Reaper rules. (also in price) They basically focus on improving an audio engine where the others also have their own proprietary synths and plugins. 

Their VST bitbridge has always been the best. It takes up less than 10mb on your drive. Has a portable version.

Some people might miss certain features like a staff editor and other things. My only gripe is for what Reaper does the documentation could be a lot better.


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## kitekrazy (Apr 5, 2014)

DenisT @ Thu Apr 03 said:


> I'll get a brand new X-79 Deluxe Mobo in the next few days (for free), the one I had was litteraly dead because of my unsuccessful BIOS update (but the store didn't know that) :mrgreen: Oops.



How did you manage to do that?


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 7, 2014)

Well this is very very strange....

I thought I'd do a quick 60 second demo of the Play 4 problem in cubase 7.5. I opened a blank project, inserted Play as a rack instrument and the Performance meter goes nuts as per normal. Removed the track, put a K5 in to confirm normal behaviour, and everything is indeed normal. Removed that back to a blank project. Ready to record and show the world my crazy fault, I fired up Camtasia, started recording, inserted Play into the project and.... oh. Everything is fine - no CPU overload.

Odd.

Closed project, new project - still fine. Restarted PC, still fine. Put into an existing project, fine. Closed Camtasia (could THAT have had an effect?!) - still fine. Rebooted the entire PC - still fine.

Fine fine fine fine fine.

Now I can't break it, no matter what I do. Which is great of course - everything works ok. But I can't for the life of me think of a rational reason why it was consistently bad and then as if by magic cleared up the second I tried to demo the fault. It's like going to get the car fixed, right?

I'll keep trying it periodically and see if the madness returns. If it doesn't - yippee, I'm safe to use it in everyday projects.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 7, 2014)

To console myself in being unable to break Play / Cubase, I thought I should demo the thing that created the thread in the first place, which delightfully is still as insane as it ever was. Here is my mad Blu Ray problem:

http://youtu.be/MeavcII9sho


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## Pietro (Apr 7, 2014)

Lol, this is crazy. The weird PLAY problem and the one with your Blu Ray drive. I'm not sure which one is it.

But looking at your DPC latency, it seems like you still have a bit higher latency than me. I've managed to work mine down to around 15-40 microseconds, with absolute peak at around 104 (in 10 minutes tests).

What I did, to significantly improve it, was turning the High Precision Event Timer in BIOS off. I think it's not useful in audio, if at all.

Also, if I just turn my network devices, it even cuts it by half, with 9 being the one I see the most in the metter (currently it's 15-17).

- Piotr


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 7, 2014)

Pietro @ Mon Apr 07 said:


> Lol, this is crazy. The weird PLAY problem and the one with your Blu Ray drive. I'm not sure which one is it.
> 
> But looking at your DPC latency, it seems like you still have a bit higher latency than me. I've managed to work mine down to around 15-40 microseconds, with absolute peak at around 104 (in 10 minutes tests).
> 
> ...



Thanks Piotr, I'll try that bios tweak. TBH I'm pretty happy with it performance-wise so I'm not sure I'll need to do too much else - I use the gigabit ethernet routinely anyway.


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## devastat (Apr 7, 2014)

Here is a short video of my PLAY problem in Cubase. I am getting ASIO spikes when I am moving the mouse as can be seen here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDJOxVUEaSw&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDJOxVU ... e=youtu.be)


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## Pietro (Apr 7, 2014)

Very strange. Have you checked if you have latest iLok drivers installed? And is it a fresh install of PLAY or an update of previous install?

- Piotr


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## devastat (Apr 7, 2014)

Pietro @ Mon Apr 07 said:


> Very strange. Have you checked if you have latest iLok drivers installed? And is it a fresh install of PLAY or an update of previous install?


Latest version of iLok and doing always a clean install. 

PLAY 4.0.32 seems to work better, altho the problem still occurs to some extent. A really strange problem indeed.


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## Diffusor (Apr 7, 2014)

Pietro @ Mon Apr 07 said:


> Lol, this is crazy. The weird PLAY problem and the one with your Blu Ray drive. I'm not sure which one is it.
> 
> But looking at your DPC latency, it seems like you still have a bit higher latency than me. I've managed to work mine down to around 15-40 microseconds, with absolute peak at around 104 (in 10 minutes tests).
> 
> ...



You wanna leave the high precision timer on, absolutely. The lower DPC means nothing. A DAW builder I trust related this information to me.


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## rgames (Apr 7, 2014)

Diffusor @ Mon Apr 07 said:


> The lower DPC means nothing.


+1

If DPC latency checker shows a problem, then you have a problem. But the actual value of the DPC latency is basically meaningless - I've had systems that have widely varying DPC Latency values but the same performance in terms of running a DAW.

Guy - your experience with flaky behavior (problem appears then disappears for no apparent reason) is consistent with mine. It's just a flaky motherboard.

rgames


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 8, 2014)

That's several people saying to leave the high precision timer on (whatever it is), so I'll keep the status quo. Like I say, very happy now with general performance, so don't feel the need to push anything further.

Richard - hmmm nymmm hmm. I'm not sure I can attribute any of my strange things to the mobo, it has been rock solid as far as I can tell. Its not generally erratic, both of my problems have been very specific. In the case of the blu ray drive, I'm blaming the blu ray drive. In the case of Play / Cubase, that really could be anything anywhere, but to me (a self-confessed layman when it comes to PCs really) the mobo wouldn't be high up my list of suspects.

One thing that has come out of this and a lot of the recent threads is actually what a poor performer Cubase is. I've encountered many issues myself, and read about many more. Given that Play has always behaved itself for me in VE Pro on this system, Cubase itself is no1 on my suspect list.


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## Pietro (Apr 8, 2014)

Yup, same here. Although, I have no problems with PLAY, Cubase is my suspect no. 1 at the moment, and I can't see why I would blame the motherboard for performance issues if they only appear with one of plugins (in my case Kontakt) and none other. And the same plugin works in VEP like a charm.

To be honest, I think. Cubase 7.5 seems to be not very well done. They keep adding features, but leave the core unchanged since ages. Like Sibelius . Also getting slower and slower with each version.

I left the Event Timer off. It didn't change anything performance-wise. I don't touch it now then .

- Piotr


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## guitarman1960 (Apr 8, 2014)

Don't want to seem like a Reaper Fanboy :D but just as an experiment try running the same VSTi's in Reaper, bet you will be very impressed with the performance!!


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## Ryan (Apr 8, 2014)

devastat @ 7/4/2014 said:


> Here is a short video of my PLAY problem in Cubase. I am getting ASIO spikes when I am moving the mouse as can be seen here:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDJOxVUEaSw&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDJOxVU ... e=youtu.be)



Dude. Your GFX-card is somehow dead, outdated or need new drivers. 
My 5 cents.

EDIT: I'm been reading trough this thread. Why do people still need a DVD/BD-player? It's all USB now! I decouple my DVD-player 2 years ago. I haven't missed it since.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 8, 2014)

Guitarman - I last tried Reaper a couple of years ago and strongly didn't like it. Would take far too long to list the issues and missing features I'd need - it felt like the Linux of DAWs, with all the good and bad that that suggests. Apart from anything else, I am tied to Cubase because I need midi control over EuCon, and Cubase is the only DAW that does this. So Reaper out of the question.

Ryan - I definitely need a DVD writer, I often have to deliver on DVD as part of a delivery requirement. Blu Ray is more of a nicety.


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## Ryan (Apr 8, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ 8/4/2014 said:


> Guitarman - I last tried Reaper a couple of years ago and strongly didn't like it. Would take far too long to list the issues and missing features I'd need - it felt like the Linux of DAWs, with all the good and bad that that suggests. Apart from anything else, I am tied to Cubase because I need midi control over EuCon, and Cubase is the only DAW that does this. So Reaper out of the question.
> 
> Ryan - I definitely need a DVD writer, I often have to deliver on DVD as part of a delivery requirement. Blu Ray is more of a nicety.



oh, I haven't been doing that, like ever. But, if you do it. I understand why you have it.


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## Pietro (Apr 8, 2014)

Ryan @ Tue Apr 08 said:


> EDIT: I'm been reading trough this thread. Why do people still need a DVD/BD-player? It's all USB now! I decouple my DVD-player 2 years ago. I haven't missed it since.



For one, Komplete 8 will only install from DVD .

- Piotr


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## Ozymandias (Apr 8, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Tue Apr 08 said:


> Linux of DAWs



As a Reaper user, I think that's pretty accurate. :lol:


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## devastat (Apr 8, 2014)

Ryan @ Tue Apr 08 said:


> Dude. Your GFX-card is somehow dead, outdated or need new drivers.
> My 5 cents.



I've been wondering as well if it has something to do with my GPU and or the drivers (I'm using Radeon HD 6970), altho I do have the latest drivers installed. 

The problem occurs only with PLAY 4 so I'm also wondering whether I have a problem in my system, or if the problem is in PLAY.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 8, 2014)

devastat @ Tue Apr 08 said:


> I've been wondering as well if it has something to do with my GPU and or the drivers (I'm using Radeon HD 6970), altho I do have the latest drivers installed.
> 
> The problem occurs only with PLAY 4 so I'm also wondering whether I have a problem in my system, or if the problem is in PLAY.



I'd had a problem with Waves plugins on 2x Radeon graphics cards, just grey guis. GeForce work fine. In fact, ONLY GeForce can run Waves on more than 1 card, it seems. Something to do with the OpenGL spec (I don't pretend to know what that's about). Anyway, at the very least it shows that graphics card drivers can affect certain plugins in certain ways.


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## Ryan (Apr 8, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ 8/4/2014 said:


> devastat @ Tue Apr 08 said:
> 
> 
> > I've been wondering as well if it has something to do with my GPU and or the drivers (I'm using Radeon HD 6970), altho I do have the latest drivers installed.
> ...



Yes, I change my GPU and that fixed the OpenGL bug etc.


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## blougui (Apr 8, 2014)

I'm having ridiculous (read massive) peaks in Cubase 7 with a i7 3770 and 16 gig ram at 256.
Sometimes, just the release of 2 instruments of MURAL (violin 1 & 2) make the CPU hit the mark.
Can't play some Breaktweaker presets with just one instance.

Outside cubase : CPU load is not above 7 or 10 %.

Could it be some VST bridge somewhere ? 

Or an inadequate hard drive ? My sample drive is not the same as the apps one.

I'm not connected and it's an only DAW PC. it's deadfull and keeping off it now, cause it's driving mad and have no idea where to look for, what to do. And cannot imagine how one can run som many VST tracks as I'm tied to so few midi tracks. Even audio tracks or freezed tracks are pretty limited. And it seems to worsen as time goes by - it's worse after a couple of hours of work;

- Erik


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 8, 2014)

Hard to say exactly what the problem is Erik, as I've proved it can be anything. For Cubase, I guess switching ASIO guard on / off, mutlithreading on / off may make a difference. 7.5.2 is out tomorrow, wonder if that'll make things better / worse?


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## blougui (Apr 8, 2014)

Hello Guy,
thanx for chiming in. I'm not on Cubase 7.5 but on the last 7 update.

I tried to demo B2 reverb and had the peaks on some presets on just one single sound. Crazy. I feel like 5 years back, when I quit DaW because of such issues - could'nt play my PLAY libs so... And could'nt afford a new PC. I started playing piano on its one instead  i've built my own configuration a year ago. I find I spend most of my time searching for the origine of the problem than writing.
At least I'm not a professionnal... (being one, I guess I would hire someone or spend the rest of my time reinstall Win 7 and my software from scratch...)

- Erik


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## blougui (Apr 8, 2014)

I wonder if VEPro would settle this - but at 235€ I cannot hope it'ld work : I am not eligible for a demo (just have an old Solo strings lib).

One question : is VST Bridge working in the background if no plugin is inserted in the project ?

I almost feel like something went wrong since the day I had to connect my PC to the web to register Omnisphere. May be just a coincidence.

Edit : I see there's a new Cubase 7 update. I'll check that tomorrow.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 9, 2014)

Lots of positive noises over on the Steinberg forum regarding 7.5.2 and ASIO spikes having disappeared. Have a feeling that this update will be one of those golden ones - installing tomorrow.


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## Pietro (Apr 10, 2014)

Not much of a difference over here, I'm affraid .

- Piotr


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 10, 2014)

Pietro @ Thu Apr 10 said:


> Not much of a difference over here, I'm affraid .
> 
> - Piotr



Yes, I report much the same here too. I have been working on a legacy project this afternoon, and it was clicking and popping all over the place. Turned out there was a blank instance of Play in it - powered off at the rack and normality restored.

I'll successfully demo it one day. I will you know.

Everything else is working smoothly, but is was before too.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 17, 2014)

I've been getting a few issues with the rig lately, basically everything freezes - it's just power off time. A couple of times its done a variation where it gets drunk and the mouse moves with this sluggish drunken delay, but you can't make it do anything - again its power off to restore. It's done it twice when performing CPU intensive tasks (both times iZotope insight analysing at 30m file), but also when I left it on over lunch doing nothing. Launching Play in PT10 set it off earlier. Some of these things seems specific actions that it doesn't like, but other times (like the idle at lunchtime one) it just seems random.

It's not starting up giving me stern messages, I don't know how to diagnostically check what's been happening. Any clues where to start looking?


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 22, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Thu Apr 17 said:


> I've been getting a few issues with the rig lately, basically everything freezes - it's just power off time. A couple of times its done a variation where it gets drunk and the mouse moves with this sluggish drunken delay, but you can't make it do anything - again its power off to restore. It's done it twice when performing CPU intensive tasks (both times iZotope insight analysing at 30m file), but also when I left it on over lunch doing nothing. Launching Play in PT10 set it off earlier. Some of these things seems specific actions that it doesn't like, but other times (like the idle at lunchtime one) it just seems random.
> 
> It's not starting up giving me stern messages, I don't know how to diagnostically check what's been happening. Any clues where to start looking?



Lil bump for this question. PT10 10.3.7 has just crashed the whole system twice in as many hours - suspect its due to auto-saving screwing up, but not sure. As before, I have to turn the power off, but get none of the customary messages on next boot up - no idea where to look for logs etc to fault find.


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## TravB (Apr 22, 2014)

Guy,

Are you familiar with the Windows 7 event log? It can be a great resource to help identify the cause (or at least the circumstances) leading to crash.

If you haven't used it before, you can find it in the Control Panel > Administrative Tools > Event Viewer.

Once there, expand Windows Logs and click System. There's a TON of information here, so it may help to use the Filter Current Log option at the right, and select Error as the type of log information you want to view. 

As you can see, the error logs are time/date stamped, so you may be able to tie a particular error event (or events) to a specific shutdown you've experienced. Hope that helps.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 23, 2014)

TravB @ Wed Apr 23 said:


> Guy,
> 
> Are you familiar with the Windows 7 event log? It can be a great resource to help identify the cause (or at least the circumstances) leading to crash.
> 
> ...



Thank you - no, I hadn't seen this before. Looking at it, I seem to have the right number of crirtical events, but it's just an Event ID 41 Kernel-Power, which from a quick google means "restart after a clean shutdown", which I know of course. There wasn't any more info. I trawled through the application and system logs before one event such restart, I couldn't find anything at all. It looks to me (I'm not very savvy with these things mind) that whatever the fault is is instantly critical, and there isn't a chance for any part of the system to even write a fault ID.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 23, 2014)

Eek, it feels like my system might be going down... 2 system-wide crashes in the last hour, the 2nd of which I'd barely opened PT. The first of these was proceeded by the system stalling and acting drunk, PT threw up an error which said "audio processing could not complete due to conflicts with CPU tasks or a potential clocking issue". Nothing in the Event Viewer in application or system though.

Getting worried.... RAM? Mobo?


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## marclawsonmusic (Apr 23, 2014)

Sorry to hear of your troubles, Guy. A couple of random thoughts...

Do you use "Run as Administrator" when starting your audio apps (Cubase, PT, VEPro)?

Have you disabled Indexing Service on your hard drives? Especially drives recording audio.

Is there any kind of anti-virus or anti-malware software running?


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## TravB (Apr 23, 2014)

Guy, so sorry to hear you're having that much trouble with your shiny new system. I'm curious, the company who built your computer, are they generic computer builders or are they experienced DAW builders? There's quite a bit of difference in my experience, and there was a time where I spent a significant amount of my life designing and building custom DAWs -- I never have and never would deliver a product with the troubles you've described.

Having said that, these instant shutdowns are a serious concern, but could be caused by a number of issues. First, I'd try to rule out thermal shutdowns, which can happen just like you're describing. If possible, take off the side panel of the system, boot up, and watch to ensure that all the case fans and especially the CPU fan(s) are running during use. Next I'd install an app to monitor CPU core temps (do a google search for CoreTemp).

If fans are working properly and temps are well within specified ranges, then we can move on to RAM testing and/or possible power supply issues.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 23, 2014)

marclawsonmusic @ Wed Apr 23 said:


> Sorry to hear of your troubles, Guy. A couple of random thoughts...
> 
> Do you use "Run as Administrator" when starting your audio apps (Cubase, PT, VEPro)?
> 
> ...



I'm always logged in as administrator - does "run as administrator" do anything if you're in that mode?

I've not disabled indexing - doing that now. (EDIT - actually I'll come back to it, clearly its going to take hours).

I'm running MS Eecurity Essentials - Piotr recommended that to me over AVG. I'd like to keep something running as the computer is on the net.

Thanks for the suggestions.


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## Pietro (Apr 23, 2014)

I would check your CPU thermal condition. I haven't seen this on my machine. So far, apart some ASIO spikes, that are still there, which I can live with for now, I get no other issues.

If the computer shuts down just like that on it's own, especially during heavier tasks, then your CPU cooling could be your usual suspect. Could be that the fan is failing, or the paste on the CPU isn't distributed properly, rendering the cooler totally inefficient.

Check your CPU temperatures in idle and in heavier load.

- Piotr


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## marclawsonmusic (Apr 23, 2014)

I must have missed the part about the system shutting down on its own? I thought it was just freezing up.

I agree that if the system just shuts itself off, you should explore CPU / GPU temps. Those components have a failsafe when they get too hot - they shut down to prevent melting. I have used this tool to check CPU / GPU temps in the past --> http://www.cpuid.com/softwares/hwmonitor.html

Disabling indexing is important... especially if you are printing audio files, splicing audio, etc. Each of those little WAV and fade files is getting indexed for searching (something you probably don't need), and the CPU is trying to do this at the same time you are working.

You can obviously disable indexing on individual drives, but you can also just turn it off altogether in Control Panel > Administrative Tools > Services. Just find "Indexing Service" and click "Stop" (might want to set Startup Type to "Manual" as well). Or, to get rid of it altogether, go to Control Panel > Programs and Features > Turn Windows features on or off and uncheck "Indexing Service".

In terms of "Run As Administrator", Windows 7 introduced a lot of new security features, and some programs just don't do well unless they have full access to the registry and filesystem. It doesn't matter if your user account is setup as a "computer administrator", there are just some things that only the actual "Administrator" account can do.

So, you might want to try starting your audio programs by right-clicking the icon and selecting "Run As Administrator". If this resolves some issues, you can actually create a shortcut that ALWAYS runs the program as Administrator.

On MS Security Essentials, you might want to disable real-time scanning. Or just shut it down altogether (at least to troubleshoot). Again, this is a process that is scanning your memory (and hard disk) while you are using the computer, so it is taking up some of your horsepower to do those things.

Any of these things could be causing the hiccups you are experiencing. It might be wise to disable them one-at-a-time to see if one is the culprit.

Good luck, sir.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 23, 2014)

Thanks Piotr and Marc - and yes, Marc you are correct, it's just freezing rather than shutting down on its own. AFAIK all temps are supercool, nothing seems stressed (apart from me).

I think it's probably not related to real time access or anything. The last time it went, I'd loaded a protools session and was just going down some tracks switching them off input. Voom. It hadn't accessed any audio at all.

It's not done it this afternoon since the double earlier. I think it's only crashed when using PT, but can't be sure.... it may have crashed Cubase once too.

I'll try those other tricks, thanks Marc.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 24, 2014)

Latest debugging report...

Twice PT has stalled for a few seconds, and I caught it on 95% CPU when it happened, but both times it recovered on its own. Then as I went to type this fascinating factoid into this thread, the PC seized (along with Task Manager, so no useful info there)

The PT stalls aren't synchronus with auto-save, and never leave anything in the event log (still ditto on the system seizures as well). I've updated PT from 10.3.7 to the latest (and final?) 10.3.8; real-time protection was already off in Security Essentials (whoops), Indexing is already off and running as administrator. 

More and more its looking like hardware to me? Surely a duff driver would leave a trail in the event log?


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## TravB (Apr 24, 2014)

Sorry Guy, I misunderstood one of your previous comments as your system was shutting itself down. Clearly that is not the case here, and you are not having thermal issues. What you are describing now is completely different, and I'm leaning towards the issue not being hardware related at all.

High CPU usage typically does not indicate a hardware failure. If these freezes only happen in ProTools, that is very telling. There's a poorly coded driver, plugin, or configuration that is not playing well with others. But maybe they happen in ProTools because your always using ProTools?

If this were a true hardware defect problem, such as a failing motherboard, RAM, or wonky power supply, I would expect the freezing to be happening outside of ProTools usage as well.

Next time you get the high CPU utilization, check the Task Manager to see if you can spot which process is hogging the CPU.

Have you disabled any and all BIOS options that relate to energy saving and CPU throttling? Disabled core parking in the registry?


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 24, 2014)

TravB @ Thu Apr 24 said:


> If this were a true hardware defect problem, such as a failing motherboard, RAM, or wonky power supply, I would expect the freezing to be happening outside of ProTools usage as well.
> 
> Next time you get the high CPU utilization, check the Task Manager to see if you can spot which process is hogging the CPU.
> 
> Have you disabled any and all BIOS options that relate to energy saving and CPU throttling? Disabled core parking in the registry?



It is happening when PT isn't the focus, but it's running in the background (it crashed when I was in Chrome earlier). I can't be 100% sure if it's ONLY when PT is running - at the moment I'm running PT 70% of the time and Cubase 30% I'd say.

The high CPU for the freeze was PT's exe process - whether or not that's related the siezure I'm not sure but I suspect so.

I'll check on BIOS for throttling as I can't remember where that ended up. No idea what core parking is, I'll do some trawling.


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## TravB (Apr 24, 2014)

The trend for several years now among motherboard manufacturers is to produce "greener" products in an effort to conserve energy. A noble cause, but these power saving methods have no place in a DAW.

BIOS settings and terminology vary quite a bit, but disable entries pertaining to EIST, C1, C3, C States, or ANYTHING that may try to dynamically change the CPUs clock frequency (aka throttling). While you would most likely never notice any of this throttling while surfing the web or editing a spreadsheet, pops/clicks/dropouts are likely in a realtime audio stream which we simply cannot risk in a DAW.

CPU Core Parking is another example of energy saving, but done at the Windows level. For maximum performance, we want all cores to be available and ready at all times, not dynamically switched on and off. A simple registry edit will disable core parking. Launch regedit and search for this key:

0cc5b647-c1df-4637-891a-dec35c318583

Once found, change the Val Max parameter from 64 to 0. Press F3 to find another entry and do the same. Press F3 again to ensure there are no more entries. Exit the registry and reboot. That's it, no more core parking.

Disclaimer: Changes to BIOS and/or the Windows registry can cause a system to become unstable or unbootable. Know how to recover your BIOS and backup your registry.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 24, 2014)

TravB @ Thu Apr 24 said:


> The trend for several years now among motherboard manufacturers is to produce "greener" products in an effort to conserve energy. A noble cause, but these power saving methods have no place in a DAW.
> 
> BIOS settings and terminology vary quite a bit, but disable entries pertaining to EIST, C1, C3, C States, or ANYTHING that may try to dynamically change the CPUs clock frequency (aka throttling). While you would most likely never notice any of this throttling while surfing the web or editing a spreadsheet, pops/clicks/dropouts are likely in a realtime audio stream which we simply cannot risk in a DAW.
> 
> ...



Thanks Trav, appreciate the effort (as I type another post on the laptop while I reboot .... again.... but I must admit those suggestions just don't feel right for my symptoms. With throttling etc, I'd expect skips, pops, short freezes, not catastrophic failures without warning, which is what I'm getting - surely?


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## TravB (Apr 24, 2014)

Guy, I understand and agree that CPU throttling *may* not be the direct cause of the trouble you are experiencing. However, the first rule of troubleshooting of any kind is to eliminate the simple/cheap stuff first. Getting your computer appropriately configured for DAW use is relatively easy and inexpensive. Then, move on to increasingly more complex and expensive options. 

Just curious, did your system configure the BIOS and Windows for DAW use or was that left up to you?


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 24, 2014)

TravB @ Thu Apr 24 said:


> Guy, I understand and agree that CPU throttling *may* not be the direct cause of the trouble you are experiencing. However, the first rule of troubleshooting of any kind is to eliminate the simple/cheap stuff first. Getting your computer appropriately configured for DAW use is relatively easy and inexpensive. Then, move on to increasingly more complex and expensive options.
> 
> Just curious, did your system configure the BIOS and Windows for DAW use or was that left up to you?



In theory it's all set up - it was audio specialists SolidHawk. However, they made numerous blunders so I wouldn't trust anything of course.

I just found this thread that looks hauntingly familiar symptoms - http://duc.avid.com/forumdisplay.php?f=93 . Finger pointing at AAX 32 bit. One quirk on my system is that not all plugs are showing up in AudioSuite, even though they're installed on the system. Think I'm gonna trash prefs and ditch all AAX 32.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 24, 2014)

OK - changes made.

Edited registry to disable core parking

Trashed PT prefs

Made following bios tweaks (Asus x79 Deluxe):

Intel speedstep turned from auto to off
Internal pll overvoltage off switched from auto to disabled

These are set as is (not sure what is relevant)

CPU core ratio auto
AI overclock tuner auto
Turbo off
CPU vcore voltage offset mode
EPU power saving disabled

I've left the AAXs for now, hoping something here has made a difference. Too many aax plugs I'm using in current projects!


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## TravB (Apr 24, 2014)

As a rule, I don't use or recommend 32-bit plug-ins with a 64-bit OS. I fully understand that people do and everything works well and I'm truly happy for them. However, in my experience, I've seen/heard/read of numerous problems that just go away once the 32-bit plugs were eliminated.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 24, 2014)

TravB @ Thu Apr 24 said:


> As a rule, I don't use or recommend 32-bit plug-ins with a 64-bit OS. I fully understand that people do and everything works well and I'm truly happy for them. However, in my experience, I've seen/heard/read of numerous problems that just go away once the 32-bit plugs were eliminated.



It's a way of life in PT10 - there's literally no other option.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 25, 2014)

Happy to report an entirely blemish-free day. You have to be careful calling a random, sporadic fault fixed, but after 8 freezes in the previous 3 days - 4 of which were yesterday - its encouraging news. It all feels rock solid, not as much as a blipette.

The problem of fixing something like this (if indeed I have) when in desperation I try 4 things at once is that I never can be sure of what actually fixed it. Was it the core parking? The BIOS tweaks? Junking PT prefs? I may never know.

Speaking of PT, lots of plugs still not showing up in AudioSuite even after trashing prefs, but that's a whole other issue.

Thanks again to Trav in particular for ideas and help.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 28, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Fri Apr 25 said:


> You have to be careful calling a random, sporadic fault fixed



You do indeed - sadly I'm still where I was, it was the laws of randomness it seems.

So still system-wide freezing (probably connected to PT10), and all suggestions gratefully received once again.


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## TravB (Apr 28, 2014)

Guy, so sorry to hear you're still having trouble, but I actually expected it because I still don't believe you've found the true cause of the freezes yet. Dammit, a well-designed and built modern DAW just should NOT be this problematic.

My next suggestion would be to run a comprehensive memory test to rule out faulty RAM. You can download a free memory tester from www.memtest86.com. There's good detailed instructions at the website on how to download and create a bootable flash drive or CD for the testing, as well as how to run and read the results.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 28, 2014)

Yes indeed - I haven't run memtest on this machine yet, I'll do that after my session today. The worst thing is finding an error and then having to track it down to one of the 8 sticks....


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 28, 2014)

Well, passed memtest. Mobo perhaps?


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## TravB (Apr 28, 2014)

Bad memory was a longshot, but good to know it is ruled out. I really doubt it is the motherboard (still possible of course). My gut instinct tells me you still have a driver or possibly a plug-in that just isn't playing well with others.

Do you have any external hardware, such as a MIDI controller or audio interface plugged into a USB3.0 port? If so, please move to a USB2.0 port and restart/retest. While one would normally think those drivers are the same or compatible, I've seen several DAW issues caused by these relatively new USB3.0 ports, at least early on. Worth a try, again falling under the "test what is cheap and easy" before moving on to more complex/expensive solutions.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 28, 2014)

Thanks as ever Trav, very much appreciated. Interesting idea. It's only portable USB drives in those sockets, but it's via a hub - I could try unplugging that hub actually.

Might be a couple of days til I resume the hunt as I'm away til Thursday though.


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## Pietro (Apr 29, 2014)

Might be a clue. Pro Tools and PLAY, that seem to give you troubles, even when not used together, have at least one thing in common. iLok.

Worth to try moving it around or something.

- Piotr


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 29, 2014)

Pietro @ Tue Apr 29 said:


> Might be a clue. Pro Tools and PLAY, that seem to give you troubles, even when not used together, have at least one thing in common. iLok.
> 
> Worth to try moving it around or something.
> 
> - Piotr



You mean to a different USB socket? It's currently in a powered USB2 hub - will try switching that next (also have updated BIOS chipset).


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## Pietro (Apr 30, 2014)

Yeah, worth a try.

Thanks for remiding about chipset update.

- Piotr


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## rgames (Apr 30, 2014)

Keep in mind that Memtest isn't really an "all clear" test - it's a "you might have a problem" test.

In other words, if Memtest says you have a problem, you probably have a problem.

But if Memtest gives you the all-clear, you still might have a problem.

Memory problems almost always result in BSOD, so if your're getting BSOD then memory is a good thing to tweak and/or swap. If you're getting crashes but not BSOD then it's probably not the memory. Again, though, there's no absolute certainty in that trend - it's just a trend and there are exceptions.

rgames


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## Guy Rowland (May 1, 2014)

rgames @ Wed Apr 30 said:


> Keep in mind that Memtest isn't really an "all clear" test - it's a "you might have a problem" test.
> 
> In other words, if Memtest says you have a problem, you probably have a problem.
> 
> ...



Thanks Richard - I know in theory you are meant to leave it running for days, aren't you? It was one clean sweep (about 4 1/2 hours). That said, I don't get BSODs, its just the system freeze, so I think it's unlikely to be the culprit.

Next stop is to put the iLoks straight into the machine and not the hub. That said, I might wait til my next PT sessions for that (I'll be on Cubase for the next few days I think), just to see if anything untoward happens to the rest of the system.


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## marclawsonmusic (May 21, 2014)

Hi Guy,

How are things going with your build now?

I recently had some weird pops and clicks coming from my slave PC and something on this thread saved my ass. I disabled the BIOS-level CPU power management and viola... no more pops.

Anyway, just wanted to say thanks for this thread and also check in on your situation.

Cheers,
Marc


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## marclawsonmusic (May 21, 2014)

TravB @ Thu Apr 24 said:


> The trend for several years now among motherboard manufacturers is to produce "greener" products in an effort to conserve energy. A noble cause, but these power saving methods have no place in a DAW.
> 
> BIOS settings and terminology vary quite a bit, but disable entries pertaining to EIST, C1, C3, C States, or ANYTHING that may try to dynamically change the CPUs clock frequency (aka throttling). While you would most likely never notice any of this throttling while surfing the web or editing a spreadsheet, pops/clicks/dropouts are likely in a realtime audio stream which we simply cannot risk in a DAW.
> 
> ...



This is the post I am referring to. Thank you TravB for helping me out as well :D


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## olajideparis (May 21, 2014)

Jeez Guy you and I have similar builds and we're both experiencing headaches. I just reinstalled my system the other day and that didn't seem to do the trick, still having some hangups and crashes with Cubase and VEP when running VIs otherwise its fine in projects without Virtual Instruments. I think I'm gonna give purffect audio a ring and see what they suggest at this point I'm committed to buying a new mobo and video card if that's what it's going to take to bring some stability.


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## Guy Rowland (May 22, 2014)

Glad the thread's been helpful to others, Marc. And for you and Olijade - for me now everything is fine except:

1. Play 4.1.7 in Cubase 5.2.0 still spikes (fine hosting in VE Pro 4)

2. I may still be getting system freezes within PT 10. I'm 99.9% sure all the freezes have only happened when PT is running. Since I did the last tweaks above, I've had three freezes, but all have happened when trying to load 1 specific version of 1 project. Once it was finally opened and resaved, it's been fine. Its could be a plugin issue or anything really I guess.

Olajide, it's so wearing tracking down this stuff, eh? I know there's been problems with Kontakt 5.3.0 crashing stuff out - I had a spell of it too in Cubase and VE Pro - but 5.3.1 seems to have restored normality so far. Been working a lot with Cubase and VE Pro over the past few days, and I'm glitchless, happy to report.


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## TravB (May 22, 2014)

Guy - Glad to see that you're making progress. Tracing the crashes to a single project is most helpful. I've encountered similar situations over the years with various DAW clients on several platforms -- sometimes a particular project crashes for no good reason. In just about every case, I recommend exporting the audio/midi from the project and rebuilding it in a new project which solved the crashing. Due to their complexity and having to interface with a huge variety of hardware and software (especially plugins), project files can become corrupt.

Olajideparis - Consulting with Jim Roseberry at StudioCat (aka Purrfect Audio) is always an excellent idea. I've successfully designed and built several dozen DAWs over the years for friends and clients, but Jim has done hundreds if not thousands. I've found his DAW experience to be second to none, and he's who I go to when I need DAW help or advice.


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