# Scoring Budget for The Village posted online



## synthetic (Mar 2, 2006)

I think the JNH electronic package is to charge the production for using his personal equipment. The way Hollywood works is that the production either rents gear for the operator to do their work, or the operator buys their own gear and rents it to the production (making the money himself). Either way, the production has to pay for the use of the equipment. Same with the music editor stage: it's probably his usual room, but those Genelecs have paid for themselves many times over. 

Oh, the orchestra line includes the conductor and setup. Interesting to see the union scales: first chair automatically gets double scale. And what does "estimate 12 minutes per day" mean, is that their break schedule?


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## choc0thrax (Mar 2, 2006)

12 minutes of recorded music per day? What is the 20k for midi file transfer?


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## synthetic (Mar 2, 2006)

choc0thrax @ Thu Mar 02 said:


> 12 minutes of recorded music per day?



Wow, I hope not. That doesn't seem like much for a day of recording. 



> What is the 20k for midi file transfer?



I assume that's including MIDI sequence to notation conversion. For example, he plays a cue to picture and the orchestrator turns that into full score.


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## choc0thrax (Mar 2, 2006)

How much music are they normally allowed to record for 6 hours of sessions?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 2, 2006)

And if anyone was wondering why movies cost $10...


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## choc0thrax (Mar 2, 2006)

Well I think howard is getting an appropriate amount. Some of the others though are making a little too much... I never thought much of Shamalyalallaylan. Has anyone seen his homemade movie I think on the Signs DVD? How did this guy end up where he is.


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## Thonex (Mar 2, 2006)

choc0thrax @ Thu Mar 02 said:


> How did this guy end up where he is.



He wrote and directed The Sixth Sense.... not too shabby.


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## Lex (Mar 2, 2006)

Thanks for the link Synthetic...awesome stuff, very usefull...

Am I reading this thing right? Bryce Dallas Howard got 150 grand for a leading role???? wtf

Alex


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## Patrick de Caumette (Mar 2, 2006)

choc0thrax @ Thu Mar 02 said:


> What is the 20k for midi file transfer?



The orchestrator gets extra fees for working off midi files.
James NH obviously is using a notation program or a sequencer.

Man, the orchestrator salary ratio to the composer is pretty lame :???: 
(but I believe the best of them can get a cut of something...?)


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## Waywyn (Mar 3, 2006)

Patrick de Caumette @ Fri Mar 03 said:


> James NH obviously is using a notation program or a sequencer.



yes, i remember a video and he stated and demonstrated that he is working with Cubase or Nuendo ... so he is working like most of us ... and i think it states that you don't have to sit in front of the piano for 30 mins, have a complete 120 mins movie score in your head and write it down on charts, so that the copier just need to do the sheets 


hehe the funny thing is this bill against a rock band recording. there is no cocain and womens budget


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## Waywyn (Mar 3, 2006)

...


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## Scott Cairns (Mar 3, 2006)

Wow, what an interesting read. As for the 12 minutes a day, I think thats within limits for a good orchestra (like the L.A. players.) 

I remember reading that there is a maximum they can record in a day though under union rules.


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## madbulk (Mar 3, 2006)

yeah, I found the ratios between JNH, orchestrator, and copying a little surprising. Might be a good wage, but respectively, a little undervalued here I'd have thought.


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## PaulR (Mar 3, 2006)

Scott Cairns @ Fri Mar 03 said:


> Wow, what an interesting read. As for the 12 minutes a day, I think thats within limits for a good orchestra (like the L.A. players.)
> 
> I remember reading that there is a maximum they can record in a day though under union rules.



I think it's 3 minutes of recorded music per 3 or 4 hour session under union rules. It's to do with not taking advantage of musicians sight reading abilities.


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## Markleford (Mar 3, 2006)

madbulk @ Fri Mar 03 said:


> yeah, I found the ratios between JNH, orchestrator, and copying a little surprising. Might be a good wage, but respectively, a little undervalued here I'd have thought.


Not having seen these sort of breakdowns before, I wonder if JNH just gets more than typical yet all the rest of the numbers are in line with a budget this size? Thus the actual rate would be the same whether they worked with another composer, only with JNH the gap is larger?

- m


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## Waywyn (Mar 3, 2006)

madbulk @ Fri Mar 03 said:


> yeah, I found the ratios between JNH, orchestrator, and copying a little surprising. Might be a good wage, but respectively, a little undervalued here I'd have thought.



sorry i made a mistake in my first post 

well, the orchestrator is just there to prepare everything for the orchestra. so where is the problem. he maybe worked 3 weeks to 1 month on that and gets around 60000?

JNH was creating all that stuff and it took him maybe a around 3-4 months or so? dunno, but creative jobs and just doing some writing down (don't wanna say, that this is no challenging job) and preparing is a big difference imho.

but the copying sound a bit too much for me? even if they print the charts on big paper with expensive ink, it shouldn't be that much. or is there are copying of files, transfers, conversion of the data calculated?


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## Scott Rogers (Mar 3, 2006)

..........


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## Waywyn (Mar 3, 2006)

yes, sure it helped, thanks for the insight.

but i don't understand why copying needs a whole team. isn't it just one chart which has to be multiplied or maybe printed on special size paper?


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## synthetic (Mar 3, 2006)

The orchestrator and copyist are paying their dues. I think this is a standard fee for an A-list composer.


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## Scott Rogers (Mar 3, 2006)

..........


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## synthetic (Mar 3, 2006)

I just emailed a friend who has recorded some big feature films. He told me that 12 minutes a day is slow, but not abnormal. He just recorded a score with 80 minutes of music in four days, (averaging 20 minutes a day) plus eight days (!)to mix.


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## Aaron Sapp (Mar 4, 2006)

You know, I'm all for film composers getting paid the big bucks, and I certainly wouldn't complain, but... a $1,300,000 composing fee for say, ninety minutes of music ~ doesn't that seem a bit much? That roughly translates to $14,400 per minute of music, or $240 per second of music.  Reading Richard Davis's "Guide to Filmscoring" book, I thought the most film composers got paid was like $600k. Now I'm hearing $1.3 million!

Again, I wouldn't complain, but WOW. It would almost be justifiable if he had to write, orchestrate, produce, notate, and copy - but all the man really has to do (assuming) is load up his sequencer and write really. I'm sure he doesn't even have to really polish up those mock-ups either.  

I understand you're paying the composer for years and years of scoring experience, ect., but it seems the higher up you are, the more resources you have at your disposal, the (dare I say) easier it is for the composer to produce a score. It's frustrating when mediocre composers (not JNH) earn this much money producing crap scores while talents like Thomas J, who could obliterate half the talent in Hollywood, are earning a fraction of that.

And of course, when you reject a score like Yared's "Troy"....


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## choc0thrax (Mar 4, 2006)

I don't think that's too much. Look at these actors that get 25 million and personal jets and stuff and don't even do as much work. While Thomas doesn't make nearly as much as JNH I don't think he is too bad off...after watching video of him crashing through furniture in his convertible...maybe he has too much money.


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## Scott Cairns (Mar 4, 2006)

I think the top composers are commanding around the 1 million mark for the same reason as a celebrity actor; they have a certain "something" to bring to the film that will add to its appeal. 

Its like a bankable assett, Bruckheimer wants an over-the-top action film that looks and sounds larger than life, he knows a composer around town that can deliver that type of sound.


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## synthetic (Mar 4, 2006)

Attaching names to your project makes it much more likely that the film will get made. If a name gets to that level, and he's contributing to the heart and soul of a project, then that person should be compensated. And the compensation should be in ratio to the size of the picture. 

I wonder what Williams gets for a picture. :shock:


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 5, 2006)

It's been about 15 years, but when I was orchestrating the most I got was about $1800 a week.


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## Waywyn (Mar 6, 2006)

Scott Rogers @ Fri Mar 03 said:


> Waywyn @ Fri Mar 03 said:
> 
> 
> > but i don't understand why copying needs a whole team. isn't it just one chart which has to be multiplied or maybe printed on special size paper?
> ...



cool, thanks again for the info


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## José Herring (Mar 6, 2006)

I really feel for the orchestrators. Man I think they're getting ripped off. Especially in a James Newton Howard score where nothing is written down and the orchestrator actually has to take midi files and transfor them to full score. That can't be easy.

Well I've met Jeff Atmajian and a few other top orchestrators and they seem to be doing quite well for themselves. So there must be some sort of back end compensation or royalty sceme in place because if this is all they're getting for a feature like Kong then it ain't enough to be buying houses and cars and stuff which they all have.

Jose


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## Brian Ralston (Mar 6, 2006)

josejherring @ Mon Mar 06 said:


> I really feel for the orchestrators. Man I think they're getting ripped off. Especially in a James Newton Howard score where nothing is written down and the orchestrator actually has to take midi files and transfor them to full score. That can't be easy.
> 
> Well I've met Jeff Atmajian and a few other top orchestrators and they seem to be doing quite well for themselves. So there must be some sort of back end compensation or royalty sceme in place because if this is all they're getting for a feature like Kong then it ain't enough to be buying houses and cars and stuff which they all have.
> 
> Jose



You guys have to also remember that the orchestrator and copyist jobs are union controlled. The composer...is not. A lot of orchestrators like the fact that they can count on getting a set fee regardless of the nature of the work. If a cue gets re-written for the 12th time...they get paid again for re-orchestrating the same cue. There is a set fee for orchestrating a 4 bar page of score. The composer...does not get paid for coming up with 30 some odd themes that all get tossed out in the end. 

This lack of union influence also allows the composer to pretty much negotiate whatever price he wants. There is no set fee big or small. If the production feels a certain composers participation is worth it...they will pay that person accordingly. It also means that there are a lot of composers with talent working on smaller budget films that may only be getting a few thousand dollars for their entire score. An amount well under their worth. But if those guys want to use an orchestrator...they still have to come up with the union rate...which is near impossible at those lower "all in" fees. 

So..there is tradeoff in the big picture of ones career.

If that is what a production wants to pay JNH. I can only see that as a good thing. If the union feels the orchestrators job is worth more than what they get, they can change their rates and see what happens. No one is forcing them to continue to be orchestrators. And believe me...these guys get so much work, they are all doing alright. And there is no back end royalty for the union jobs unless you are referring to re-use fees. But that is not really a royalty in the true sense of the word. There is no "ownership" to their work. It is all work for hire. 

The problem here seems to come from people's perception of the % difference between what JNH made on this project and what his orchestrators made in comparison. I would argue that the orchestrators would have made the same if a different lead composer was paid only $40,000 for a creative fee. And in that case, Jeff would have made more than the composer.


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## James (Mar 13, 2006)

M.Night Shyamalan is one of my favorite directors, and he might have high budget movies, but at the end, he serves us well. This is why it costs $9.50 for a movie ticket today.


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## neoTypic (Mar 13, 2006)

Very interesting insight on job functions to be gleamed here.

Thanks for sharing.


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## Ed (Mar 13, 2006)

James @ Mon Mar 13 said:


> M.Night Shyamalan is one of my favorite directors, and he might have high budget movies, but at the end, he serves us well. This is why it costs $9.50 for a movie ticket today.



$9.50 is about Â£5.50 in our money, I just checked. A normal movie ticket over here (In Guildford Odeon for example) is over Â£7! Â£5.50 would be back to the cheap old days!


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## Simon Ravn (Mar 13, 2006)

Jesus Christ... I am obviously living in the wrong country here. The budget for the music alone is 2-3 times higher than the total budget for the movie I am working on... And my fee? I can't even metion it :twisted:


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## kid-surf (Mar 13, 2006)

Well, I'll tell you what's crazy. (what I find crazy)


Even with a decent "indie" budget they still wanna pay everything else off before they make any sort of allowances for the composer. I mean, the last thing I was on I was hoping they wouldn't hire anyone to mix my cues, or a music editor, or anything else really...... 

With a 5 mil budget (which is pretty ok for an indie) their last concern was what "my" fee was. Composers are in the worst spot out of everyone because everyone else's job (they feel) has a "set" value (union). Where ours doesn't. It's more like, "whatever we have left, after we pay the dude who made the deli tray, that's the composer fee"....... 

I mean, get real guys, it's not like we have all that much to do with the film......... what's a little music hear and there compared to a beautiful deli tray that is simply delicious! Not even close guys... _hand me an apple please, and a bottle of water... oh and one of those cookies too._ Yummy! 

Pretty cool huh!!!  We have so much power it's sick!!!! (Well, some of you guys may be doing big budget stuff, so i speak for us pee-ons) :mrgreen: 


Interesting thread though........


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## José Herring (Mar 13, 2006)

I hear you Kid!!!

I was working on a film and the producer let slip how much his Kraft service bill was( that's the catering for anybody who doesn't live in Hollywood). All I could think of when I heard the number was, [email protected]#[email protected]#kers blew out of their arses litterally 15 times the amount that I had to do the whole f$%kin' score to their entire piece of crap movie!!!

Every time I see the film on TV the same thought comes back.

Yes, I'm a little bitter. :evil:


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## kid-surf (Mar 13, 2006)

Sapp ---- you are so naive that it's cute (on "you")  I mean that in the best way..........


Ok, you're forgetting how much money some of these films are making. You are also forgetting that the "composer" is often the most experienced person on the team. Are you cool with an actor making 5 Mil when they just started acting 4 years ago? And so you wanna make, what, 50 grand because your fee is too high? Huh? Too high for what? 

Think of it this way..... those fees are back pay for the YEARS they didn't make shit. Does that make more sense to you know son? :D

Those guys have more eyes on their work as well, more pressure. A well known composer told me over the phone "it's best to fuck up out of sight". Those guys have more help, but they also have more riding on whether or not they fuck up.


Here's the other thing. Thomas J is good. Sure. But not all films in Hollywood are about big orchestral cues (not saying Thomas J can't do other stuff -- and well, I'm not trying to talk smack on Thomas anyway -- or assuming to know what his range is). But sometimes directors like guys they can count on. It's as simple as that. Also, there are many films on the lower level where they don't want big orchestral cues, whether they are well written or not. A film I'm trying to get right now (3 mil budget) the guy doesn't want ANY music (so he says right now), so right, I'm gonna try to convince him to use me, and go with something that is almost invisible. Obviously I take the no music comment in composer terms to mean "an invisible score" (that sure as hell isn't orchestral), not "no music at all". Not the kind of cues that composers would say "wow" about. Know what I mean? But the film is the reason the cues are written in the first place, not so the composer can shoot his music wad. Know what I mean?


But all those A-list guys have paid their dues. They've all dealt with some pretty crazy stuff... years of it. That speaks volumes to a 'studio'. Until you've been there you really can't talk smack on their skills. You are also forgetting such a key factor which is "Composers are also psychologists" more or less. It's also the composers job to make the director, producer, and everyone else feel at ease at a time where everyone is stressing pretty hard. It's way more than just the music, is my point.


But there are directors that will take chances on guys who don't have a million credits. I was speaking to one such director at a Golden Globes party about that very thing a few weeks back (he brought it up btw). A critically acclaimed director. He was telling me that for him it's so much about how he vibes with someone and that if he feels comfortable "being around" that person that he knows they'll be able to deliver a score he likes. (So of course my next sentence to him was "So... do you like me?" :D )

Sapp it's not always about "the music"........


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## kid-surf (Mar 13, 2006)

josejherring @ Mon Mar 13 said:


> I hear you Kid!!!
> 
> I was working on a film and the producer let slip how much his Kraft service bill was( that's the catering for anybody who doesn't live in Hollywood). All I could think of when I heard the number was, [email protected]#[email protected]#kers blew out of their arses litterally 15 times the amount that I had to do the whole f$%kin' score to their entire piece of crap movie!!!
> 
> ...





:mrgreen: I know I'm not supposed to laugh, but the way you put that struck me.


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## James (Mar 14, 2006)

Ed @ Mon Mar 13 said:


> James @ Mon Mar 13 said:
> 
> 
> > M.Night Shyamalan is one of my favorite directors, and he might have high budget movies, but at the end, he serves us well. This is why it costs $9.50 for a movie ticket today.
> ...




Really? its $9.50 here, lol :mrgreen:


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