# It is time to add Dorico to Notation Speak!



## Desire Inspires (Oct 24, 2016)

We have a new competitor.


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Oct 25, 2016)

Perhaps in another year or two, but I cannot imagine anyone putting aside Finale or Sibelius to work exclusively in Dorico. It just isn't a finished product. Too many important capabilities are missing.


----------



## Daryl (Oct 25, 2016)

Paul T McGraw said:


> Perhaps in another year or two, but I cannot imagine anyone putting aside Finale or Sibelius to work exclusively in Dorico. It just isn't a finished product. Too many important capabilities are missing.


I would say it's more a matter of months, or even weeks, than years.

There is one missing feature that is stopping me doing my current project in Dorico, and it's only a small one. There are a few workflow enhancements that would make it easier, but not essential.

Certainly for a full orchestral score there are things that will slow me down, but most of what people are griping about is playback, and that is irrelevant to me.

Having said that, I will keep up my bilingual capabilities for the foreseeable future, simply because I can't force all orchestration clients to change. However, in time I'm sure it will happen, just as they all changed form Finale and SCORE to Sibelius.


----------



## Musicam (Oct 25, 2016)

The competitor is... Oberture?


----------



## Musicam (Oct 25, 2016)

I prefer Logic X


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Oct 25, 2016)

Daryl said:


> I would say it's more a matter of months, or even weeks, than years.



I hope you are correct. I had such high hopes for Dorico, but I was primarily interested in better playback within a notation environment, which was obviously not high on the priority list for the Dorico team. For notation, I am so into Sibelius that it will be hard to leave it behind. I am just an amateur, but I have never had need for anything notation related that I could not do in Sibelius.


----------



## Daryl (Oct 25, 2016)

Paul T McGraw said:


> For notation, I am so into Sibelius that it will be hard to leave it behind. I am just an amateur, but I have never had need for anything notation related that I could not do in Sibelius.


I have been using Sibelius since 1993, so it is a bit traumatic for me as well, but there are things that Sibelius never allowed me to do, because of the tight deadlines that we often work to. Dorico will overcome those limitations.

In terms of playback, I understand what you're saying, and even though I don't need it, I fully support the need for better playback. In fact Rewire would have been a great addition for me, so that I could sync it up to Nuendo, like I do with Sibelius. However, these things will come. Just not in the first few updates.


----------



## ed buller (Oct 25, 2016)

Paul T McGraw said:


> Perhaps in another year or two, but I cannot imagine anyone putting aside Finale or Sibelius to work exclusively in Dorico. It just isn't a finished product. Too many important capabilities are missing.



iT's a great start. And yes it would be good to have them but they weren't in Sibelius at first. But just for ease of use as a score editor Dorica is already far ahead. 


e


----------



## ed buller (Oct 25, 2016)

Paul T McGraw said:


> I hope you are correct. I had such high hopes for Dorico, but I was primarily interested in better playback within a notation environment, which was obviously not high on the priority list for the Dorico team. For notation, I am so into Sibelius that it will be hard to leave it behind. I am just an amateur, but I have never had need for anything notation related that I could not do in Sibelius.



Actually it really is VERY high on their list. It will be amazing when it's finished but they wanted to get out what they had. But already you can see in the basic design of the software how good the midi side will be. Other than Overture there is nothing like it.

e


----------



## Kara (Oct 26, 2016)

I've been using Sibelius for 16 years. It's comprehensive and stable software and doing its main job very well. But, a well-working midi editor, better playback, better mixer are what I expect from a notation sofware today. If Dorico can provide these expectations, there is no reason to wait for buying it.


----------



## Daryl (Oct 26, 2016)

Kara said:


> I've been using Sibelius for 16 years. It's comprehensive and stable software and doing its main job very well. But, a well-working midi editor, better playback, better mixer are what I expect from a notation sofware today. If Dorico can provide these expectations, there is no reason to wait for buying it.


You have plenty of time to consider it, because AFAIK the crossgrade is valid until March, by which time many of the features people are missing should have been enabled, plus others that Sibelius users can only dream about.

Like you, I am a long time Sibelius user (first used it in 1993), but even an old goat like me is excited about Dorico, so that should tell you something. I've also already bought two licenses, as I want to support Steinberg and the team.


----------



## Kara (Oct 26, 2016)

Daryl said:


> You have plenty of time to consider it, because AFAIK the crossgrade is valid until March



Hi Daryl,
Good to hear that there is an option for Sibelius users. I visited their page. € 279 (without VAT) is a reasonable price for this product.
Thanks for information.


----------



## pinki (Oct 26, 2016)

ed buller said:


> But already you can see in the basic design of the software how good the midi side will be. Other than Overture there is nothing like it.
> 
> e



Not sure about that. Overture is not working on Mac and full of problems and Notion is certainly a stable and developed.


----------



## JJP (Oct 26, 2016)

Dorico looks like a fabulous program, but as a copyist it's nowhere near ready for the professional work I do. That means I also won't use it for orchestrating either. Time will tell, and I'm hopeful that Dorico will eventually give computer notation a needed shot in the arm.


----------



## ed buller (Oct 26, 2016)

JJP said:


> Dorico looks like a fabulous program, but as a copyist it's nowhere near ready for the professional work I do. That means I also won't use it for orchestrating either. Time will tell, and I'm hopeful that Dorico will eventually give computer notation a needed shot in the arm.



i'm curious. Have you tried it ?

e


----------



## JJP (Oct 26, 2016)

I have not. I've been following the development closely along with some colleagues who are in contact with some of the devs going all the way back to the early days of Sibelius. The missing essential features are what made me hold off from purchasing. I have no desire to be a beta tester for an incomplete program, much less pay for the privilege. (I may buy it and play around just out of curiosity when I have time.)

I do have high hopes for this program. Steinberg is aware of the missing features, and have plans to implement them. The workflow ideas are revolutionary and may be quite good. I won't be sure until I spend some time with it.

From a work perspective for me and several colleagues it's not worth putting the time in on it for now. The devs have admitted that it can't yet perform some basic functions we find essential like chord symbols, slashes, cues, 1st & 2nd endings.


----------



## ed buller (Oct 26, 2016)

you really should try it. Then you'll be in love. It's so much faster and easier than the competition and the missing features where always add on's to be faIR. They have kept everyone abreast of what the software will contain long before launch. As it is it's by far the most streamlined easy to use score notation program around. And yes chord symbols would be nice and I suspect they are weeks away. But really give it a go...it's fantastic.

ed


----------



## JJP (Oct 27, 2016)

I'm happy to do so, but not right now. There are some things that need to there before it's worth the trouble. I do various transcribing, orchestration, and copying work full time, so I have a pretty clear idea of what it has to do to be useful. Repeats, chords, etc are a non-starter at this point. I know they'll get there, but they aren't features which I can work around.

I'm happy to be patient while they get it all put together into a full-featured program. I don't like jumping on 1.0 of any software that I plan to use as professional tool anyway.


----------



## pinki (Oct 27, 2016)

Whilst I applaud the Dorico team I do think it's odd to release a notation program for prime time without the ability to do really basic things. I'm trying to think of an analogy in the real world.... launching a car without indicators?...a boat without an anchor....a piano without pedals...a kitchen without a sink...


----------



## Daryl (Oct 27, 2016)

pinki said:


> Whilst I applaud the Dorico team I do think it's odd to release a notation program for prime time without the ability to do really basic things. I'm trying to think of an analogy in the real world.... launching a car without indicators?...a boat without an anchor....a piano without pedals...a kitchen without a sink...


It depends on what you mean by basic. An analogy could be releasing a car without the flying option enabled.


----------



## pinki (Oct 27, 2016)

Surely not...first and second time endings/vst playback, these are very basic things for a notation program. Don't get me wrong I'm happy Dorico has come into the world...just maybe a little soon.


----------



## Daryl (Oct 28, 2016)

pinki said:


> Surely not...first and second time endings/vst playback, these are very basic things for a notation program. Don't get me wrong I'm happy Dorico has come into the world...just maybe a little soon.


However, you've slightly contradicted yourself. You're talking about notation whilst complaining about playback. The most powerful notation program that exists (SCORE) didn't use to have playback at all, nor MIDI entry, yet the 1990s version is still, in some respects, more powerful than any current notation program. I can also say quite honestly that I've only ever used playback in Sibelius, for example, for checking notes, and never used repeat playback, so for me it doesn't matter at all.

Look, the simple fact is that all of us would like to have seen a more fully featured program in v1. However, most of the things that people are complaining about are actually, in the scheme of things, cosmetic fixes. What is exciting to me is the underlying principle that governs how Dorico works, when compared with other programs. I see a lot of "next generation" marketing speak going on from many developers, with both software, hardware and sample libraries, but very rarely is it actually true. For me, Dorico actually deserves to be called "next gen".


----------



## pinki (Oct 28, 2016)

Sure, this Notation/Playback thing is central to the discussion. I remember using Encore back in the day and getting very excited about the workflow...regardless of any playback. It just seemed _right_ somehow (after sweating Sibelius for years on a Mac). I've not tried Dorico yet but it seems that people are getting excited in a similar way.

However, I do also remember very sage advice about never buying software that promises lots of updates in the future as there is no guarantee they will happen. Always purchase on the understanding that what you get is what you get, the mantra used to go!
Now, I'm sure Dorico _is_ going to be updated. However they are asking for a certain level of indulgence of their customers.


----------



## ed buller (Oct 28, 2016)

Daryl said:


> It depends on what you mean by basic. An analogy could be releasing a car without the flying option enabled.



yes that's a fair analogy. 

e


----------



## ed buller (Oct 28, 2016)

pinki said:


> I However they are asking for a certain level of indulgence of their customers.



i'm sorry I disagree. They have been incredibly honest and upfront about what this software will be offering on release. They are adding things later to expand what it is. But at the moment as they have been saying for sometime...it's just a piece of notation software. Built from the ground up to be much faster and more flexible than the competition. 

e


----------



## pinki (Oct 28, 2016)

ed buller said:


> yes that's a fair analogy.
> 
> e





ed buller said:


> i'm sorry I disagree. They have been incredibly honest and upfront about what this software will be offering on release. They are adding things later to expand what it is. But at the moment as they have been saying for sometime...it's just a piece of notation software. Built from the ground up to be much faster and more flexible than the competition.
> e


 I never said they were not honest nor not upfront: I said:
"..first and second time endings/vst playback, these are very basic things for a notation program. Don't get me wrong I'm happy Dorico has come into the world...just maybe a little soon "
Releasing software with assurances that these features will come in an update is asking the customer for some trust..that's all...nothing wrong with that. But it does go against what many advise when purchasing software and libraries.

Anyhow lets not quibble, lets celebrate another notation programme being born!


----------



## ed buller (Oct 28, 2016)

indeed..we should. I really like Daniel..I went down to his office at OLD street back in 2013 and i want them to do well. If you look at the forum on Dorico he's posting and answering questions continuously. He's on his laptop waiting to board a flight. he's answering a question in the taxi and as he's checking in to the hotel . I just think with that love and committed, for what he's helped make, it will be amazing. And i think it's already great.......so I am a tad defensive.....

e


----------



## Elephant (Oct 29, 2016)

From what I know of Daniel, he is fully aware of the requirements, and that significant sales will only come once a critical mass of features are present. Let's wish him and his team luck. For my requirements too the feature set is not broad enough yet. Hopefully we will see that change soon. 
E


----------



## shnootre (Oct 29, 2016)

I too am hoping for the best for Dorico. I'm a long-time Finale user. I know Sibelius too, but in my opinion it is inferior as a composition tool (though probably superior as a purely engraving tool - at least as far as ease of layout goes). For me the dream of being able to stay within the notation environment when making mockups (since I'm most comfortable there), and to have both high-end midi control capability and intuitive and strong layout is like the holy grail. Dealing with layout in Finale is a nightmare. But you can do absolutely anything, and I love the way it handles note input and transformation (try to change three quarter notes in Sibelius into a quarter-note triplet. You'll be trying a long time!)

I'm eager for Dorico to succeed. But I think they are presumptuous in their introductory pricing. Their crossgrade price is well more than that of Sibelius OR Finale, and while they tout themselves as the new gold standard, they very clearly are not yet. I am glad they do 70% of the stuff I need doing better than any other program. But I can't really live without the missing 30%. (and truthtfully, when it comes to notation, if there's 1% of what I need missing, the wheels generally come to a halt). 

I don't know why Dorico came out so early, when it wasn't done yet. Maybe pressure from Steinberg. Reminds me a bit of the Ello launch (I think I still get emails from them from time to time). I'd be an enthusiastic cheerleader if the pricing were commensurate to the program's current capabilities. But to release the program priced the same or higher as its competitors when it very seriously cannot yet compete instills a feeling of bad faith in me. I continue to root for them because I desperately want the program they advertise Dorico as being to exist. But I'll need to see some proof that's possible before taking the plunge.


----------



## Desire Inspires (Nov 2, 2016)

What are the top 3 things that you feel are holding Dorico back from becoming the go-to solution for Notation?


----------



## shnootre (Nov 3, 2016)

Desire Inspires said:


> What are the top 3 things that you feel are holding Dorico back from becoming the go-to solution for Notation?


I can't really give you a top three things. I don't have hands-on experience with the program, but I've heard too many "you can't yets" about it. You can't respace staves...VST support is limited...you can't add more than one articulation per note. Really, a program that bills itself as a go-to solution can have this number of "you can'ts": Zero. 

I work in Finale, which is much maligned in general. But there's nothing I can't do in it. Some things involve kinda crazy workarounds, and many things take WAY more work than it feels they should. But I've never reached a point where I absolutely couldn't accomplish (speaking here only of notation, and not playback) what I needed to get done.


----------



## Vik (Oct 17, 2017)

> It is time to add Dorico to Notation Speak!


+1


----------



## Mike Greene (Oct 18, 2017)

I've added it.


----------



## michaelrohanek (Oct 18, 2017)

I bought Dorico the day it was released because I know that Daniel and his team will deliver. It was my way of giving them some confidence in the product. Whilst it's not as featured yet, the basic philosophy of 'players' over instruments, separating 'Write' and 'Engrave' modes, and the popover data inputs are brilliant. It was designed to run on a laptop keyboard. The layouts are so clean and customisable. So far I love it, i've been using Sibelius seriously for 15 years and ready to move on. Slowly I'm moving over. This season expect drum notation, interval harmonisation, fingering, multirests, and other enhancements... don't forget it's only 1 year old. Won't be long...


----------



## Vik (Oct 18, 2017)

I actually think it may take a year it two before it’s really usable for me, for instance because I need real time recording. But things are moving in a good direction.


----------



## wcreed51 (Oct 20, 2017)

Wouldn't it make more sense to just have "Notation Speak" without naming names?


----------

