# Moving brass to the back of the room without reverb



## Dan Drebing (Nov 23, 2016)

First some quick context: I am trying to decide if I need replacements for my Hollywood Orchestra samples because I don't like the room size information in the samples OR if I'm just not properly mixing them and not getting the sound I want.

In another thread about the Hollywood Orchestra, Jeremiah Pena posted this track which he made with only the Hollywood Orchestra and free Bricasti M7 IRs floating around on the internet (not accounting of all other production plugins): 

Here is another track whose brass sound I like, but is not Hollywood Orchestra: 

All of the brass in the HZ Batman soundtracks has a great quality of clarity + depth too.

I really like the slappy sound of the brass, which sounds like it's way back in the hall to me. When trying to get the same sound using reverb, I think I've just been creating a mushy mess () and a slightly less mushy mess ()

The issue seems to be use too little reverb and the hall disappears, or use too much and all the life gets sucked out and everything is washy mush (additionally, the reverb and instruments sound like they are separated somehow). Is using a delay the key to getting this sound, or am I just not mixing reverb correctly? I've tried using instrument family specific verbs, as well as global verbs ( I also have trouble getting strings to sound clear with a deep hall sound, but the issue is more pronounced with brass).

The reason I'm asking is because I'm trying to decide if I should grab the Spitfire strings and brass during their sale in order to resolve this issue (because of their hall sound) or if I'm going to continue running into the same issue because I'm fundamentally misunderstanding how to mix to get this sound (in which case I should save my money)?


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## Patrick (Nov 23, 2016)

Hi Dan,
are you using a reverb that can produce the early reflections and the tail separately?
If that is the case, you can put an instance of a reverb plug in on your instrument channel or a group channel with your whole brass ensemble and turn on only the early reflections to move them further back. Then you could have a reverb instance on your master or on an FX-channel that you send the signal to via a send.

There is a ton of helpful advice in these threads, although it is not the easiest thing to wrap ones head around. I started trying stuff out and quickly found a way that works for me.

http://vi-control.net/community/thr...o-use-2-different-reverbs.56062/#post-3994360

http://vi-control.net/community/threads/reverb-and-routing.44266/#post-3858477


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## jeremiahpena (Nov 23, 2016)

For The Mighty Airship Chase, everything was being sent at 0db to the "06 Scoring Stage" M7 impulse (just a single instance for the entire orchestra). Nothing any more complex than that. I've stuck with that same impulse response for most of my orchestral stuff for years.

Here's just the brass from that track: https://clyp.it/yd1pu1gw There's some pretty shoddy programming in the low brass at the end, but I did the whole track in about 8 hours and didn't bother to go back and fix anything after the first version.

I'll send instruments to the reverb at different levels depending on the sample library. Hollywood Orchestra gets between -6 to 0dB, Spitfire gets -12 to -6dB depending on the mics used, CSS gets -6dB. If I need a drastically different sound I'll sometimes use a different M7 IR, or Cubase's REVelation reverb for big washy tails.


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## Dan Drebing (Nov 23, 2016)

Thanks for the quick responses guys.

Patrick - thanks for the helpful links. I've read a lot of threads on here, but have never nailed a sound I really like (when using only orchestra, I can get things to sit well when I have sound design elements to map out the space). I don't have a reverb that lets me control ER and tail separately. I've been using the Bricasti IRs in Waves IR-L, but I could upgrade to get IR-1 which lets you do that. I've also been using QL Spaces which doesn't have that control.

Jeremiah - thanks for posting that naked stem, that's super helpful. I'm surprised by how dry everything is. I can hear the quality on the french horns that I'm looking for though. Their reverb tail sounds a lot shorter than when I was using that IR which makes me think that I'm not dialing it in properly, but it also makes me think that I'm not balancing instruments properly and that that's creating more issues. Also 8 hours?


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## jeremiahpena (Nov 23, 2016)

Dan Drebing said:


> Thanks for the quick responses guys.
> Jeremiah - thanks for posting that naked stem, that's super helpful. I'm surprised by how dry everything is. I can hear the quality on the french horns that I'm looking for though. Their reverb tail sounds a lot shorter than when I was using that IR which makes me think that I'm not dialing it in properly, but it also makes me think that I'm not balancing instruments properly and that that's creating more issues. Also 8 hours?



I use the IR in Native Instrument's Reflektor, with default settings:






I thought maybe Reflektor might be doing something different with it, so I just loaded the IR in REVerence, also default settings. If there's a difference, I can't hear it.


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## MarcelM (Nov 23, 2016)

Dan Drebing said:


> Thanks for the quick responses guys.
> 
> Patrick - thanks for the helpful links. I've read a lot of threads on here, but have never nailed a sound I really like (when using only orchestra, I can get things to sit well when I have sound design elements to map out the space). I don't have a reverb that lets me control ER and tail separately. I've been using the Bricasti IRs in Waves IR-L, but I could upgrade to get IR-1 which lets you do that. I've also been using QL Spaces which doesn't have that control.
> 
> Jeremiah - thanks for posting that naked stem, that's super helpful. I'm surprised by how dry everything is. I can hear the quality on the french horns that I'm looking for though. Their reverb tail sounds a lot shorter than when I was using that IR which makes me think that I'm not dialing it in properly, but it also makes me think that I'm not balancing instruments properly and that that's creating more issues. Also 8 hours?



jumping in here to give advice. if you really wanna purchase a conv reverb where you can seperate ER and TAIL then i highly recommend reverberate 2. it also comes with bricasti m7 fusion IR which are way better than the free ones around. its a steal for the money and maybe it will be even on sale @black friday? dunno 

the advice i got myself here is actually that you dont use ER on wet librarys and just add a tail. with additional ER it will start to sound muddy. well hollywood orchestra is pretty dry, so with it youre fine but with other librarys you should just give it a tail.


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## Dan Drebing (Nov 23, 2016)

I'll try out Reflektor - I have no idea to what degree different reverb units can make the same IR sound different, but IR-L is pretty old at this point I think so it's definitely possible.

If I find any big results I'll post some examples.


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## MarcelM (Nov 23, 2016)

there wont be a difference. the IR make the BIG difference between different convolution reverbs.


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## Dan Drebing (Nov 23, 2016)

Heroix said:


> the advice i got myself here is actually that you dont use ER on wet librarys and just add a tail. with additional ER it will start to sound muddy. well hollywood orchestra is pretty dry, so with it youre fine but with other librarys you should just give it a tail.



Thanks for the rec! I'm glad to see they have a free demo (maybe a black Friday sale too).

One thing I'm trying to figure out is if Hollywood Orchestra + appropriate reverb settings can get /that/ sound i hear in my head, or if it makes more sense to buy samples recorded in bigger halls and not have to worry about engineering things myself as much. It's probably just a matter of taste.


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## MarcelM (Nov 23, 2016)

with the right use of reverb you will be absolutly fine with the hollywood orchestra. youre probably using just too little reverb. try the reverberate demo and use the m7 large hall. send the brass like -10 db and have a listen. berlin hall is also very nice.

reverberates send are a little bit lower compared to other plugins, but you also can adjust this by the gain inside the plugin.


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## desert (Nov 23, 2016)

Dan Drebing said:


> Thanks for the quick responses guys.
> 
> Patrick - thanks for the helpful links. I've read a lot of threads on here, but have never nailed a sound I really like (when using only orchestra, I can get things to sit well when I have sound design elements to map out the space). I don't have a reverb that lets me control ER and tail separately. I've been using the Bricasti IRs in Waves IR-L, but I could upgrade to get IR-1 which lets you do that. I've also been using QL Spaces which doesn't have that control.
> 
> Jeremiah - thanks for posting that naked stem, that's super helpful. I'm surprised by how dry everything is. I can hear the quality on the french horns that I'm looking for though. Their reverb tail sounds a lot shorter than when I was using that IR which makes me think that I'm not dialing it in properly, but it also makes me think that I'm not balancing instruments properly and that that's creating more issues. Also 8 hours?


I've always found your tracks to simulate space perfectly, I'm actually surprised you're only using Spaces. :O


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## Dan Drebing (Nov 23, 2016)

desert said:


> I've always found your tracks to simulate space perfectly, I'm actually surprised you're only using Spaces. :O



Thank you for the kind words! I wonder if I lose objectivity from listening for too long to the same material...


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## Dan Drebing (Nov 23, 2016)

Heroix said:


> with the right use of reverb you will be absolutly fine with the hollywood orchestra. youre probably using just too little reverb. try the reverberate demo and use the m7 large hall. send the brass like -10 db and have a listen. berlin hall is also very nice.
> 
> reverberates send are a little bit lower compared to other plugins, but you also can adjust this by the gain inside the plugin.


I really like it so far. Using it in conjunction with a couple other reverbs, instead of only one or maybe 2, is really helping give it the "back wall" without reducing clarity. I'll have to wait and see how it sounds when I listen tomorrow to see if it's just new sound hype or if it has real staying power. Thanks for the recommendation.


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## MarcelM (Nov 24, 2016)

actually desert up there was right and i also liked your tracks. spaces is a very very good reverb too. send some more DB to spaces and post something again (maybe another example where u use reverberate).


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## WhiteNoiz (Nov 24, 2016)

What I hear is their tracks are just mixed louder... Jeremiah's is quite normal levels-wise for my standards. Beijbom's is super compressed/limited, to the point I can barely listen to it and not get confused/get a headache. And I like yours just fine... Try maybe some harmonic exciters, width/panning reduction, saturation, delays, some creative EQ. Compression/limiting would be my last resort... Except maybe some busscomp to make it more unified/compact/tight. Try these, I think you'll open some new possibilities. (Of course, I still make mistakes and experiment all the time myself; don't mean to sound like I know everything)

For example, this sounds great to me:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=RR9kT8PL6ZA

Tight, open, you can tell the dynamics/volume differences apart, there's contrast. You want width/spaciousness, not loudness. I think that's some of the best advice I've got.

@jeremiahpena That trombone slide is a 3TB cresc (slow?) patch with external pitch-bending, correct? Just tried it and it sounds almost the same. Or maybe I'm missing something?


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## jeremiahpena (Nov 24, 2016)

WhiteNoiz said:


> @jeremiahpena That trombone slide is a 3TB cresc (slow?) patch with external pitch-bending, correct? Just tried it and it sounds almost the same. Or maybe I'm missing something?



It's from the low brass effects. Either LB Cres Split Slw or LB Cres Split, can't remember which one.


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## Dan Drebing (Nov 24, 2016)

WhiteNoiz said:


> Try maybe some harmonic exciters, width/panning reduction, saturation, delays, some creative EQ. Compression/limiting would be my last resort...



Thanks for the detailed advice! I'm not a great mixer and have gotten into trouble with compression before, so I'll try your alternative tools.

The one thing that confused me was panning reduction- I'm always trying to get a nice wide sound, how does panning reduction help the end result? Are you taking about reducing the stereo width of each channel and then placing them in the field more easily, or affecting the width of the mix as a whole?


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## Creston (Nov 24, 2016)

Watching the tiiiide role awayyyy..

I read the thread title of this 3 glasses of red wine deep.


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## WhiteNoiz (Nov 25, 2016)

Dan Drebing said:


> reducing the stereo width of each channel and then placing them in the field more easily



Yeah, sorry for the confusion. In the sense that sounds occupy more space to the left or right depending on where they sit (don't forget that a lot of [solo at least] sounds are mono sources in reality, and a section is indeed made of differently spaced mono sources blending, which again is aided in its partial fakeness by buss comping). It builds up to bigger homogenous and different sections, etc. You can pan the left or right channel of a signal or reduce them both. I mostly use Sleepy Time Dual Panner for this (it's free and 64bit; really handy). This is helped also by reverb pre-delay and delay offsets and ERs ("bounces from walls"/reflections/distance). You can also peak some frequencies with slightly high resonance to create room coloration spots (I do this mostly on basses/lobrass/... for extra weight; note: drier basses [before reverb; usually], don't create a mess - exciters help with this, too). Also cutting some mids/highs can create the sense of more distance* (especially on HB, which is really bright/in-your-face!; I do some generous cuts on it, haha), with the added benefit that it makes strings softer and more "muted"). You could also try Proximity (it's also free). Depends on the plug-in, how it'll sound... I'd generally try to get wideness with the reverb, not by widening the signal (although that can work, too). That's my take on it, at least. (ERs/impulses of real places help, too)

*Generally high freqs decay/are absorbed faster, basses are more wavy-shaky/vibrating and travel greater distances (Oh, and follow your gut and some reference tracks!)

Generally, the drier the lib the more of these treatments (for example, barely if at all with something like Spitfire, probably a lot with something like VSL; make sure you actually need to edit, it's an easy trap to fall into).

See stuff like this: http://physics.stackexchange.com/qu...requency-sounds-really-carry-longer-distances

Also, have you read the manuals? They have some good info:


> *Creating a Soundscape*
> Whether listening to an orchestra live on a stage or from a stereo recording, we’re all used to hearing the sounds of the various instruments coming at us from different directions. In a traditional symphonic layout for an entire orchestra, for example, we expect the violins to be on our left, and the cellos and basses on our right. There are two reasons we might want to continue this practice. The first is to trick the listener’s ear into perceiving a recording of a live performance. Even when everyone understands that the piece was created inside a computer, emulating a traditional sound can have its benefits. The second reason is that it’s easier for the human ear to hear two similar sounds as separate when it perceives them as arriving from different locations. If the trumpets and the trombones are doubled, or even playing an octave apart, they will stand out from each other better when they seem to be in separate locations in the soundscape that surrounds us.
> 
> *Panning*
> ...



https://scoringfilm.net/2012/06/23/full-orchestra-placement/
(...)

Yeah, I also avoid compression partially because I'm not so good at it.



jeremiahpena said:


> It's from the low brass effects. Either LB Cres Split Slw or LB Cres Split, can't remember which one.



Ok, thanks (checked only Tromb fx). The cresc detune sounded pretty smooth actually... It was a good idea, anyhow. It could be useful to do slides on any note, with more control over them.


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