# Leitmotif in film - Effective ?



## Andrajas (Feb 27, 2016)

Hello,
I just read a thread at Deniz Hughes Facebook group about someone linking a video ,explaining Howard Shores use of leitmotif in LOTR. I was kinda shocked over the responses there. She diminished Shore's music and claiming that the use of leitmotifs is not a big deal, and is not particularly effective in scoring. For me, Howard Shores score for LOTR is my favorite and I love how he uses leitmotifs through out the films.

So to my question, what do you think of leitmotifs in film/games etc? Is it outdated? 
Cheers,


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## TGV (Feb 27, 2016)

I tend to agree that leitmotivs are not particularly effective per se. No moviegoer(*) will magically understand that X is in reality the son of Y because there is a three tone overlap. I'd put it even stronger: only the most blatant, literal repetition of a theme might be a clue for anyone watching a movie. For the rest, they only hear mood/texture.

It is however a clever device that some composers have put to great use and which can help to keep music organized and coherent. I think the LOTR score is one of the best scores I've ever heard, and when you listen to it, the themes work well, but in the movie most of it is buried under the story and the images.

Is it outdated? Hell no. If it helps you write better scores, use it.

And who is Deniz Hughes anyway? She's got a bunch or youtube clips, in one of which she explains that the most important element of a composer's website is your foto. That might be true, but the says so in the most amateurish of youtube self-recorded videos, where she looks bad and her voice sounds awful. And then there's this quote on her website: "Studying composition with Deniz Hughes is like learning the philosophy of Foucault from Yoda." There are so many things wrong with that. If that's how serious she takes her own words, I say ignore her statements.

(*) speaking about the general audience, not the film composers who go to the cinema just to hear the score.


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## Pasticcio (Feb 27, 2016)

TGV said:


> No moviegoer(*) will magically understand that X is in reality the son of Y because there is a three tone overlap. I'd put it even stronger: only the most blatant, literal repetition of a theme might be a clue for anyone watching a movie. For the rest, they only hear mood/texture.


I disagree. I think subconsciously leitmotifs are extremely effective in telling the audience what is going inside a characters head. I don't think most people will say 'oh this is a recontextualization of the phrase from the final scene in act 1, which must mean X is the bad guy'. But damn sure they can sense it, maybe without realizing it. It's a detail which helps with audience's immersion in the movie. And the more immersed viewers are , the more emotionally attached they become. That's effective imo 

But why take the word from someone like Deniz(or anyone else). If Howard Shore's score to LOTR is your favorite score today, that is proof it is not outdated. I would trust my favorite film composers what makes a good score, more than anyone else.


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## ed buller (Feb 27, 2016)

I disagree too. In the best Hands (JW and his ring cycle of Star Wars movies..) It can be very helpful and effective at telling a story. But it's definitely not the only way

e


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## marclawsonmusic (Feb 27, 2016)

I think it is effective. Shore, Horner and JW have been very successful telling story with these devices, but even beyond those 'old school' guys, consider so many of Hans' movies... Even the godfather of the 'modern' film sound uses motives and devices that are attached to characters and events. If you watch Dark Knight or Man of Steel with an even remotely discerning ear, you will hear it. Or John Powell with his themes in Ice Age and HTTYD, or Danny Elfman or Alan Silvestri or...

I think Pasticcio said it very well... These devices work in a subtle way to convey emotion attached to certain characters / events... and the audience does in fact connect with it.


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## TGV (Feb 27, 2016)

Pasticcio said:


> I think subconsciously leitmotifs are extremely effective in telling the audience what is going inside a characters head. ... But damn sure they can sense it, maybe without realizing it.


First, leitmotivs are not there to tell what's going on in someone's head. It's a theme associated with a person (or group, or object).

Second, is there any proof that it does? I don't think there is. There only seems to be research into recognition of themes as such, not if exposition to a set of themes makes recollection of the association easier.


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## Farkle (Feb 27, 2016)

Andrajas said:


> Hello,
> I just read a thread at Deniz Hughes Facebook group about someone linking a video ,explaining Howard Shores use of leitmotif in LOTR. I was kinda shocked over the responses there. She diminished Shore's music and claiming that the use of leitmotifs is not a big deal, and is not particularly effective in scoring. For me, Howard Shores score for LOTR is my favorite and I love how he uses leitmotifs through out the films.
> 
> So to my question, what do you think of leitmotifs in film/games etc? Is it outdated?
> Cheers,



I would ask Bear McCreary (Battlestar Galactica, Agents of Shield, Davinci's Demons) if leitmotifs are outdated. 

Then I would ask Rohann Stevenson (Merlin) if lietmotifs are useless. 

Then I'd ask Hans Zimmer (The Dark Knight) if leitmotifs don't work. 

Then I'd compare their answers as working, award winning composers "in the trenches" to Deniz Hughes' opinion. And, make my decision.

I would also be wary of taking musical advice from a person, who commented about the piece I wrote below (box link attached). Mix is awful, but you get the idea:

https://app.box.com/s/s4yrtsuhkhq072lxq2he1pgmcw49se8f

"Michael, I'm afraid this piece isn't good; and I'm very concerned about your ability to compose music."

No further comments or constructive criticism, just a sweeping statement of absolutism. (Recognize a trend here?). 

You have to decide if what I wrote wasn't very good, and if I have no ability to write music. If you agree with her, then by all means, listen to her other opinions about music. If you don't, then perhaps she's not correct in other areas as well. 

Mike


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## ed buller (Feb 27, 2016)

TGV said:


> First, leitmotivs are not there to tell what's going on in someone's head. It's a theme associated with a person (or group, or object).
> 
> Second, is there any proof that it does? I don't think there is. There only seems to be research into recognition of themes as such, not if exposition to a set of themes makes recollection of the association easier.




with respect I think you are missing their subtlety . It isn't always an obvious thing. That's their beauty. In the right hands they can really support a story either on the surface or beneath . One of my favourites is from the Right Honourable Member from Konigstein im Taunus during the truly absurd scene in Angels and Demons, when Carmelengo McKenna legs it out of the basilica with the god-particle bomb. Here the music plays against the action and gives us this wondrous heavenly music . Heartfelt and beautiful. Makes the scene for me

E


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## JohnG (Feb 27, 2016)

It depends on the picture. If you think about those films in which it succeeds, they are (mostly) mass entertainment. Very good entertainment in the case of LOTR or Star Wars, but nevertheless there are Good Guys and Bad Guys. These films don't overload the audience with pesky ambiguity. 

Even watching the Dark Knight, though it makes nods to ambiguity and mixed feelings and so on, one is never in doubt as to who the villain is.

I think it was Thackeray or maybe Trollope who wrote, about Dickens, something like, "if you paint for the masses you must paint in bright colours." There was some resentment and envy in that, but I think it's still an accurate observation. One (very successful) director with whom I worked said "you have to hit them over the head with it" about film, at least mass films.

I am not in any way condemning these pictures, by the way. If you want esoteric, read philosophy or -- Trollope. Movies cost a lot of money now, so they almost inevitably must seek a big audience. Arguably, the most amazing feat, given that constraint, is to incorporate anything at all of sophisticated, artistic value in them.


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## Prockamanisc (Feb 27, 2016)

Yes, absolutely they work. A master craftsman (like JW) will set expectations for the theme to come so that it's much more effective when it actually arrives. Think about ET's Flying Theme- the first time we hear it is halfway through the movie, but it's been alluded to so much over the course of the film that it sounds SO GOOD. It's like Cloverfield- we know it's there, but we don't actually see it towards the end.

Although I feel it's kind of a cop-out, a lay-audience will respond to it unconsciously at first. It's not supposed to be "noticed", though, only the effects of it are supposed to be noticed, and that's the moment the audience will definitely hear and remember the main theme, and, in effect, utilize all that's been prepared in their ear up until that point.


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## ed buller (Feb 27, 2016)

JohnG said:


> "you have to hit them over the head with it" about film, at least mass films.



Hmmm...I was told..after I was quite rightly criticised for doing exactly that..."give the audience some credit..! "

a good book: 

E


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## JohnG (Feb 27, 2016)

Well, maybe depends on who said it, what he's accomplished, and what kind of picture it is. Student filmmakers with whom I worked initially held no shortage of opinions and where are they now? Not attacking your guy.

The circumstance I relate was in the case of a grab-ass comedy -- poo jokes, wacky stuff, zany plot turns. Moreover, there is nothing subtle about who is "good" and "bad" in Star Wars and, as genius as the music is -- really -- the music is not there to blur the lines about that.


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## Pasticcio (Feb 27, 2016)

TGV said:


> First, leitmotivs are not there to tell what's going on in someone's head. It's a theme associated with a person (or group, or object).
> 
> Second, is there any proof that it does? I don't think there is. There only seems to be research into recognition of themes as such, not if exposition to a set of themes makes recollection of the association easier.


I don't think there are any rules of how to use them. I mean, yes the leitmotif itself might only be a representation of the, for example, character, but depending on how they are presented in a specific moment they can clearly reflect a characters inner state.

And no, I don't have any proof :D There might have been some scientific studies done on this, I don't know, but I don't bother doing the research.


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## Daryl (Feb 27, 2016)

JohnG said:


> Well, maybe depends on who said it, what he's accomplished, and what kind of picture it is. Student filmmakers with whom I worked initially held no shortage of opinions and where are they now? Not attacking your guy.
> 
> The circumstance I relate was in the case of a grab-ass comedy -- poo jokes, wacky stuff, zany plot turns. Moreover, there is nothing subtle about who is "good" and "bad" in Star Wars and, as genius as the music is -- really -- the music is not there to blur the lines about that.


My mentor said pretty much the same thing.


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## JohnG (Feb 27, 2016)

Pasticcio said:


> There might have been some scientific studies done on this, I don't know, but I don't bother doing the research.



Ha!

I agree. It's a messy thing, music. Tom Newman asked "what makes a piece of music sad, what makes a piece of music happy?" and I think it's a good question with a startlingly long answer. 

I think of the exquisite Durfulé Requiem that I really love, and its mix of sublime (well, pretty much all of it is sublime), the beautiful, the tragic, the sense of loss. Undoubtedly, I'm imputing emotional qualities to it because it's a requiem. But that's not the whole story. There is something "in" there that stands on its own and resists being wrestled to the ground analytically.

Re-peat would probably say this is all rubbish and that music is "just" music until we lard it up with associations that aren't really in it. Which might be true, but we do tend to do that.


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## marclawsonmusic (Feb 27, 2016)

Farkle said:


> "Michael, I'm afraid this piece isn't good; and I'm very concerned about your ability to compose music."


Wow, who could say such a thing? I think it's a really nice piece of music, Mike.


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## Andrajas (Feb 27, 2016)

Great points you put out people!


Farkle said:


> I would also be wary of taking musical advice from a person, who commented about the piece I wrote below (box link attached). Mix is awful, but you get the idea:
> 
> https://app.box.com/s/s4yrtsuhkhq072lxq2he1pgmcw49se8f
> 
> ...



I'm only a member in that group because in some cases, some interesting topics come up. I do see a trend here hehe, I do really not care about what she says, and the feedback she gave you is just ridiculous. I just got a little "angry" when seeing the comment about leitmotif in the Facebook group, and that got me thinking about this, which led to this thread hehe.

Cheers,


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## marclawsonmusic (Feb 27, 2016)

TGV said:


> Second, is there any proof that it does? I don't think there is. There only seems to be research into recognition of themes as such, not if exposition to a set of themes makes recollection of the association easier.


Not sure, but the first time I rode the 'Batman ride' at Six Flags... and I heard that Danny Elfman music... it immediately brought back a flood of emotion related to the movie - heroism, courage, all that stuff. 

It inspired me enough to finish the ride without throwing up!


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## jdrcomposer (Feb 27, 2016)

While not many audiences will consciously note that "x means x" or "y is related to x", in a film as vastly packed with information as LOTR I think it does help the audience to subliminally take in and process characters and places. I took a few lessons with Deniz years ago, she seems to be more connected to the business end of composition than the actual composing process.


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## RiffWraith (Feb 27, 2016)

Andrajas said:


> She diminished Shore's music and claiming that the use of leitmotifs is not a big deal, and is not particularly effective in scoring.



Is it ok to diminish her intellect, and knowledge? Because she is coming across as someone who is not very knowledgeable on the subject of film scoring.

It's ok to not like a score, and to think it didn't work in a particular film. But to say the use of leitmotifs is not particularly effective in scoring, is like saying that sugar is not particularly effective in baking. Yeah, you can do it, but....


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## Baron Greuner (Feb 27, 2016)

edited


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## givemenoughrope (Feb 27, 2016)

I've been checking out Carter Burwell scores of the past few years (not Carol, Seven Psychopaths, In Bruge, Burn After Reading). The themes don't really represent characters but ideas/emotions or the character's conclusions I guess.I thought the Fargo tv series (jeff Russo) to be similar but I just heard an interview where he alludes to them being more tied to characters (my excuse to watch it all over again!)..

I'm kinda unclear on the difference between motifs, leitmotifs and themes. Seems like the first two are the same and can be part of a full theme. At least that's how I've always thought of them.


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## ed buller (Feb 27, 2016)

Baron Greuner said:


> Benard Herrmann never used leitmotifs and made that work. A lot of misinformed people think the shrieking strings in Psycho is a leitmotif. It's not. He didn't do leitmotifs at all.



whilst they are not obvious , and that would reasonably call into question weather they can in fact be called Leitmotifs, I think Herrmann certainly used them. The most obvious ones are in Vertigo. But HE didn't think he did. Raged against them ! But if you go to the bother of writing music, textures et al , that are to be used at specific moments. And they can be identified , then in essence THAT is a Leitmotif. It's musical story telling. It might be a person , a thing, a place ,a felling .whatever.






In North by Northwest there is a descending motif that we first hear when Roger is Kidnapped. This becomes the basic bad guy ( as there are two, or three ) material.






is the " Journey Motif". In fact as brilliant an North By Northwest is ( and it really is ) it's made up out of not a great deal of music. Probably why he managed to write it at the Kitchen table ( away from a piano ) over six weeks. But I'd humbly maintain that it's full of leitmotivs .

thank you Patricio Lopez-Guzmán : http://hitchcock.tv/essays/herrmann/bhindex.html

e


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## Baron Greuner (Feb 27, 2016)

edited


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## ed buller (Feb 27, 2016)

well I guess we disagree on what IS a leitmotif. And yes he was sometimes very simplistic in his writing. Almost a minimalist at times. David Raksin said, 'Benny had a gift for writing sequences rather than melody.' Using VERTIGO as an example, he said the church in the film was 'Our Lady of Perpetual Sequences.' 

e


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## Matt Hawken (Feb 27, 2016)

givemenoughrope said:


> I'm kinda unclear on the difference between motifs, leitmotifs and themes. Seems like the first two are the same and can be part of a full theme. At least that's how I've always thought of them.




Generally speaking, a motif is very short - perhaps one bar long, or a few notes. Sometimes it's just the sound of once particular instrument. It's bitesize. A theme is more likely to be several bars long, a melody that stands by itself. A leitmotif is a motif that's intrinsically linked with a character/object/place/mood and recurs each time that thing appears on screen or on stage.


You can google/wiki the history of leitmotif and Wagner's famous of use of it for yourself but bear in mind that it was intended to help the audience keep track of complex and lengthy plots (e.g. this guy is the baddie, this is the romance couple...) so it's often very literal or even simplistic in its application. So it works well for extended series like Lord of the Rings or Star Wars where there are dozens of characters to keep track of. But in a one-off film it's probably a bit overkill. You don't want to be bashing your audience over the head with the motif each time, or revealing more of the plot/sub-plot than you need to.


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## givemenoughrope (Feb 27, 2016)

Right, I guess I lumped LM and M together since (besides those films) we are no longer in the age of the leitmotif ala golden age Hollywood or Wagner. For one off films (or even tv) it seems more common to have a character's theme when they are introduced and then somehow return to that in a subtle, clever way...like, you would have to be really paying attention to a couple chords or intervals to hear it come back.


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## Zhao Shen (Feb 27, 2016)

Leitmotifs ineffective? Not a chance. Some films are suited better by an absence of leitmotifs - this is true, and it's done so incredibly well in many cases. But to claim that the art of leitmotif incorporation itself is ineffective is strange and unsupported by any evidence. To provide Shore's LotR as the example for getting your point across to readers? Now that's pretty laughable. To someone who is imagining the music of Middle-earth, it's pretty apparent that leitmotif could be used extremely effectively, what with the distinct cultures and races of such a world. Or you know, you could just use pretty underscore music in place of the Shire themes...


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## JohnG (Feb 27, 2016)

Just to take the other side of it, I don't agree that leitmotifs work _in general_. I think in some cases, leitmotif is or would be a disaster and makes a film inadvertently comic.

Where they are successful, they work primarily, as someone wrote, for epics with lots of characters that are, if you'll pardon me, somewhat cartoonish in their good guy / bad guy divide. And in some cases have a fair amount of humour.

I am not bashing LOTR or Star Wars, but they are not subtle in who's who. Ditto many children's tales or even some horror films.


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## Dave Connor (Feb 27, 2016)

Leitmotif is an operatic convention and term and as mentioned seems to work very well in operatic films such as Star Wars and LOTR. One step back from that are 'themes' and rare is the film that does not have discernible themes. For example, Goldsmith's brilliant Alien score has recognizable themes but certainly not Leitmotifs. It also has pure dramatic underscore. Leitmotifs tend to be rather unrelenting but that may be why they work so well in certain kinds of story telling. All the current guys like Powell, Newman and the rest seem to run themes by us a few times to give form and consistent psychology to their films. There are other approaches to be sure but even Bernard Herrmann will use themes along with his repetitive musical cells. Taxi Driver and The Ghost of Mrs. Muir have very big themes (I _think_ he returns to the title theme in Muir anyway_.)_

Film Music is theatre music and even if you have a song-score you still are not far away from the Broadway music theatre. As in anything, the success of a particular approach is dependent upon the quality of the story material, production, film-making and the composer's choices and abilities. In good hands it certainly adds to the wide appeal of well known cultural landmarks going back nearly two centuries now.


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## ed buller (Feb 28, 2016)

leitmotif is german for "leading Motif" or "guiding Motif".....it can be as short and simple as a chord...or as long and complicated as a 16 bar phrase. They fell out of favour when people like Max Steiner pretty much wrote nothing else, hence I suspect Herrmann's characteristically grumpy and dismissive response. But my opinion is that if you have a phrase , chord ,sound, whatever ! and you have a system for using it a specific points in your score....you've made a leitmotif.

Herrmann used the "Tarnhelm Motif" Throughout "Journey to the centre of the Earth"......wonder if he knew ?




e


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## Baron Greuner (Feb 28, 2016)

edited


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## JonFairhurst (Feb 29, 2016)

Of course, leitmotifs work. If not, they wouldn't be noticed or written over the decades. They are a tool in the toolbox that are effective when placed and executed well. If they're too exposed, they can be campy. (I used them in a spy parody series.) If used artfully, they can pack a punch. Just think of the James Bond theme. Sometimes, it makes us giggle, yet in uplifting moments it makes us fill our lungs with air.

They can also tell parts of the story that aren't on the screen. Imagine Peter walking down a dark trail. As soon as you hear the French horn harmonies, we know the Wolf is lurking in the shadows - or at least in the back of Peter's mind. It certainly puts the wolf in the audience's minds.

Leitmotifs aren't to be discounted, nor are they a silver bullet. Know your tools.


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## TimCox (Feb 29, 2016)

I absolutely believe leitmotif helps with storytelling. It can not only be an example of a character, it can be a place or an emotion as well. Say you establish a love theme and later the hero looks thoughtfully out to the horizon, you COULD insert a small tidbit of said love theme to establish that the character is thinking of the man/woman the theme is associated with. On the flip side, maybe there is music that plays during a moment of tragedy. You change the audience's perception of the film by bringing that back over the scene in question.

Can this be done without leitmotif? Sure! It's just another tool, it depends on how you like to tell stories. For me though, if I was writing a story, I wouldn't make a new character every time someone speaks.


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