# Dorico as a DAW/ Switching to Dorico



## MadLad (Jan 18, 2022)

Hey fellow composers,
I have a few questions about Dorico, I hope you could answer.

First: Are there sales? It's kind of expensive but I would definitely get it with a 30% or 40% discount.

But my main question is this:
I've seen that you can use the software with 3rd party VST libraries. So, could I use Dorico for, let's say, 90% of the way, doing all the composing, the mixing and then export my results to a DAW to do the rest (EQing, compression, maximizing, reverb and whatever else needs to be done)? Or can you possibly do all of it in Dorico? Can I use my EastWest Spaces II Plugin or any EQ plugin in Dorico and do everything in Dorico so that there's only the mastering left?

I'm currently using Staffpad for my comissions but since the Staffpad team seems to care less and less about the userbase, I'm looking for an alternative. Dorico seems to have awesome potential in that regard if you could really use it for almost all the work that needs to be done. I come from a "hand-writing" background so I never got into and never will get into "programming" music in a DAW, yet I know it's necessary. But if I could go around that with dorico where I can "compose" most of the things I need and after that "program" a few tweaks here and there that would be wonderful.

So, is Dorico, a VST library (maybe Spitfire or the EastWest composer's cloud), additional effects (like EW Spaces II, Waves Plugins, etc.) and maybe a bit of tweaking in Reaper enough to make a professional product for clients?


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## mopsiflopsi (Jan 18, 2022)

Watching this thread.


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## Bollen (Jan 18, 2022)

MadLad said:


> First: Are there sales?


Some.


MadLad said:


> Or can you possibly do all of it in Dorico?


I do, but you need something like VE Pro. Or perhaps no, I'm not that sure... But VE Pro is a must I find! Otherwise, Dorico gets unbearably slow with large projects.


MadLad said:


> I come from a "hand-writing" background so I never got into and never will get into "programming" music in a DAW


Me too!


MadLad said:


> enough to make a professional product for clients?


Absolutely, I have... Even a movie!


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## Jett Hitt (Jan 18, 2022)

I was able to get a considerable discount by doing a crossgrade from Sibelius/Dorico. I don’t recall which I used or how much I paid. I assume that you can still do this.


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## MadLad (Jan 18, 2022)

Bollen said:


> Some.
> 
> I do, but you need something like VE Pro. Or perhaps no, I'm not that sure... But VE Pro is a must I find! Otherwise, Dorico gets unbearably slow with large projects.
> 
> ...


Thank you! That's very reassuring. I have a gaming laptop with a fast processor and 24GB of ram so I think it could handle a semi-large project.



Jett Hitt said:


> I was able to get a considerable discount by doing a crossgrade from Sibelius/Dorico. I don’t recall which I used or how much I paid. I assume that you can still do this.


289€ from Finale. Wow, that's actually a good deal.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Jan 18, 2022)

MadLad said:


> Hey fellow composers,
> I have a few questions about Dorico, I hope you could answer.
> 
> First: Are there sales? It's kind of expensive but I would definitely get it with a 30% or 40% discount.
> ...


Google Dorico sale 🙂 I always do that whenever I want to find out if a product ever goes on sale. Then you can see if there are specific times of the year when it goes on sale too.


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## ssnowe (Jan 18, 2022)

For me I bought Dorico in stages when they had their sales. First bought Elements 3.5 in the summer on sale then when Black Friday came bought Pro which included a free upgrade to Dorico 4.

I see people mention VE Pro. The reason that VE Pro is used is that Dorico will load all of your VST's into memory when you open/create a new song, which can take a while. Change to another song it will generally do it again. Waiting around for Dorico to load vst's can be a real time sink.

With VE Pro essentially you load VE Pro and vst's once (either on your local pc or a remote pc) and then have Dorico load VE Pro. If you open one song or dozens you get rid of the vst load times as VE Pro is acting as an intermediary for hosting the vst's and Dorico talks to VE Pro.

You can also get an instrument plug-in called NotePerformer that allows you to quickly plug in a fairly decent (not claiming it's anywhere close to perfect) sound set for composing in Dorico.


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## jbuhler (Jan 18, 2022)

Anyone know what version of Sibelius you need to get the crossgrade. I have long been using 7.5. Or rather I have long had 7.5 installed but I rarely use it. And yes I'm well aware that Sibelius 7.5 is ancient, which is why I'm wondering if it qualifies. The Dorico site is not very helpful. Dorico seems like I might actually use it but I don’t know if I will use it enough to be willing to pay full price for it.


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## Jett Hitt (Jan 18, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> Anyone know what version of Sibelius you need to get the crossgrade. I have long been using 7.5. Or rather I have long had 7.5 installed but I rarely use it. And yes I'm well aware that Sibelius 7.5 is ancient, which is why I'm wondering if it qualifies. The Dorico site is not very helpful. Dorico seems like I might actually use it but I don’t know if I will use it enough to be willing to pay full price for it.


Here is an old sale wherein you can see that any copy qualified. However, your academic discount might be just as good.

https://blog.dorico.com/2020/08/switch-to-dorico-from-sibelius-or-finale-and-save-50-percent/


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## zolhof (Jan 18, 2022)

You have 4 inserts per channel, one FX channel and a master channel with 4 more inserts. It's more than enough for orchestral mockups, at least for me (I rely on microphones, panning, EQ and reverb) but you will still need a DAW if you want to do any serious sound design or work with audio at all.

Expression maps, custom playback techniques and playback templates offer a ton of user flexibility, but unlike StaffPad, there's nothing magical about Dorico's playback engine, you will have to teach it how to interpret your score. It's a long, tedious, and worthwhile process, so start small, one articulation at a time. Always use a reference track, IMHO this is crucial if your goal is to produce convincing mockups.

I posted these excerpts in another thread:

View attachment Love Theme D4.mp3

Reference recording
View attachment Love Theme LLL.mp3


View attachment Dogs Dorico.mp3

Reference recording
View attachment Dogs LLL.mp3


Considering I didn't touch Cubase to create these mockups, I'm pretty satisfied. In fact, the Dogs of War intro is a recreation of a mockup I had done in Cubase years ago, so I can confirm you can use Dorico 100% of the way to achieve the same results. And it was done in Dorico 3.5, without the revamped Play mode and key editor. You guys are lucky, MIDI editing pre-4.0 was not for the faint-hearted.


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## jbuhler (Jan 18, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> Here is an old sale wherein you can see that any copy qualified. However, your academic discount might be just as good.
> 
> https://blog.dorico.com/2020/08/switch-to-dorico-from-sibelius-or-finale-and-save-50-percent/


An educational crossgrade is even better! And it would be quite ironical if it was Dorico that got me to buy VEPro and get the eLicenser just before everything moved to ilok.


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## jbuhler (Jan 18, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> An educational crossgrade is even better! And it would be quite ironical if it was Dorico that got me to buy VEPro and get the eLicenser just before everything moved to ilok.


Looking at Steinberg's educational licensing and it's not valid for commercial use. I'm not even sure what that would mean for a notation program, though I presume it would apply to any audio that was generated by Dorico. But when I publish a Dorico engraved example in a book, would that be commercial use?


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## Jett Hitt (Jan 18, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> Looking at Steinberg's educational licensing and it's not valid for commercial use. I'm not even sure what that would mean for a notation program, though I presume it would apply to any audio that was generated by Dorico. But when I publish a Dorico engraved example in a book, would that be commercial use?


I suspect this is a moot point. They can say whatever they like, but how are they going to enforce it? I suppose with a book, they could recognize the font, but then again, you're an academic. Everything you publish is academic. You'll be an academic until the day you die, albeit likely an emeritus one. It's not like you're going to write a romance novel with it. And you can bet they aren't checking publications and comparing software licenses for the authors. Also, if a student buys Dorico, then graduates and produces a money-making song with Dorico, what could they possibly say or prove? I doubt seriously that anyone can listen to something and know which software produced the recording. (Except for perhaps StaffPad or some other closed system.)


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## Al Maurice (Jan 19, 2022)

@jbuhler -- It all depends on how you intend your work to be disseminated.

So if you are inserting extracts into a paper or book purely for research purposes, then it probably wouldn't be deemed as a commercial use. On the other hand if you are seeking profit from some orchestral work or score for release to the general public, then that's a different matter altogether.

But to be safe, it's probably best to check with Steinberg how and what they deem work as commercial, as their terms may be different than elsewhere. That way you will save lots of legal issues down the line, which could cause your work from being retracted by the publisher.


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## MadLad (Jan 19, 2022)

zolhof said:


> You have 4 inserts per channel, one FX channel and a master channel with 4 more inserts. It's more than enough for orchestral mockups, at least for me (I rely on microphones, panning, EQ and reverb) but you will still need a DAW if you want to do any serious sound design or work with audio at all.


I suspected at much but that's okay. Does that mean I can do as much as possible in Dorico with BBCSO for example and then export everything as is in Reaper to tweak it for a final product? What I don't want to do is correct mistakes from importing. I just want to tweak all the work I've done previously to save time.


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## ed buller (Jan 19, 2022)

MadLad said:


> I suspected at much but that's okay. Does that mean I can do as much as possible in Dorico with BBCSO for example and then export everything as is in Reaper to tweak it for a final product? What I don't want to do is correct mistakes from importing. I just want to tweak all the work I've done previously to save time.


The only thing you can't do in Dorico is Audio. The mixer is also pretty basic in term's of sends and no automation. But each track (midi) has access to all the CC lanes. And to be honest if all you are doing is final tweaking i'd just export all tracks as audio, open that in your Daw and finish. 

If you take time to set up Dorico expresion maps and VSL Vienna Ensemble Pro you can really get it all sounding very close to done in DORICO.

Best

e


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## Saxer (Jan 19, 2022)

ed buller said:


> The only thing you can't do in Dorico is Audio.


I often have to transcribe tracks or have to write additional arrangements on top of existing songs. In Dorico it's possible to attatch videos with included audio and so I made some small black dummy movies where I add the audiofile as movie sound. Exporting audio into the movie is done in Logic. Also in Logic I detect the tempo of the original audio track (including tempo changes) and save it as a midi file. In Dorico I can import the song tempo from the midi file. So the audio track is running exactly in sync with the click in Dorico.


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## MadLad (Jan 19, 2022)

ed buller said:


> The only thing you can't do in Dorico is Audio. The mixer is also pretty basic in term's of sends and no automation. But each track (midi) has access to all the CC lanes. And to be honest if all you are doing is final tweaking i'd just export all tracks as audio, open that in your Daw and finish.
> 
> If you take time to set up Dorico expresion maps and VSL Vienna Ensemble Pro you can really get it all sounding very close to done in DORICO.
> 
> ...


So that means I have two options:
1. A bit like Staffpad, I do almost all of the work in Dorico with BBCSO, edit the midi data, build expression maps to get the best sounding results and then export the instruments as audio tracks to just add Reverb, EQ, etc. etc. in Reaper.

2. I do almost all of it in Dorico with BBCSO but I export the midi data instead and tweak everything further in Reaper. That's what I want to know: Can I do the editing that you usually do in a DAW to a certain extent in Dorico (because that would be more comfortable for me) and export that work to Reaper and continue there? Because even after I think, I've mixed and composed it perfectly, I still find little mistakes to correct and if I import the midi data instead of the audio track I still have that option in Reaper, right? While I liked the instant gratification in Staffpad, I learned the hard way that I'd rather have more options to customize the midi data directly to get the perfect mix.

Sorry to bother you so much and sorry if I sound like a total noob but the whole magic behind DAW and VST libraries was always very confusing to me but it's time that I get the hang of it.


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## dcoscina (Jan 19, 2022)

MadLad said:


> So that means I have two options:
> 1. A bit like Staffpad, I do almost all of the work in Dorico with BBCSO, edit the midi data, build expression maps to get the best sounding results and then export the instruments as audio tracks to just add Reverb, EQ, etc. etc. in Reaper.
> 
> 2. I do almost all of it in Dorico with BBCSO but I export the midi data instead and tweak everything further in Reaper. That's what I want to know: Can I do the editing that you usually do in a DAW to a certain extent in Dorico (because that would be more comfortable for me) and export that work to Reaper and continue there? Because even after I think, I've mixed and composed it perfectly, I still find little mistakes to correct and if I import the midi data instead of the audio track I still have that option in Reaper, right? While I liked the instant gratification in Staffpad, I learned the hard way that I'd rather have more options to customize the midi data directly to get the perfect mix.
> ...


No apologies! That’s what this forum is for!


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## ed buller (Jan 19, 2022)

MadLad said:


> So that means I have two options:
> 1. A bit like Staffpad, I do almost all of the work in Dorico with BBCSO, edit the midi data, build expression maps to get the best sounding results and then export the instruments as audio tracks to just add Reverb, EQ, etc. etc. in Reaper.
> 
> 2. I do almost all of it in Dorico with BBCSO but I export the midi data instead and tweak everything further in Reaper. That's what I want to know: Can I do the editing that you usually do in a DAW to a certain extent in Dorico (because that would be more comfortable for me) and export that work to Reaper and continue there? Because even after I think, I've mixed and composed it perfectly, I still find little mistakes to correct and if I import the midi data instead of the audio track I still have that option in Reaper, right? While I liked the instant gratification in Staffpad, I learned the hard way that I'd rather have more options to customize the midi data directly to get the perfect mix.
> ...


It's whatever you are comfortable with . From a practical standpoint , for me at least, the idea of revisiting the midi in Cubase isn't required. I can manipulate all I need to in Dorico. In fact I just print Stereo mixes at the moment straight from Dorico, But I suspect that might be easier to do from Cubase with regard to stems and the like. So for me option 1 is it !

Remember too if you go for option 2 you will have to make sure that your starting point in Reaper is what you left Dorico with , In regard to midi. That could be a really awful situation spending time to get to where you where when you closed Dorico

best

ed


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## Bollen (Jan 19, 2022)

MadLad said:


> So that means I have two options:
> 1. A bit like Staffpad, I do almost all of the work in Dorico with BBCSO, edit the midi data, build expression maps to get the best sounding results and then export the instruments as audio tracks to just add Reverb, EQ, etc. etc. in Reaper.
> 
> 2. I do almost all of it in Dorico with BBCSO but I export the midi data instead and tweak everything further in Reaper. That's what I want to know: Can I do the editing that you usually do in a DAW to a certain extent in Dorico (because that would be more comfortable for me) and export that work to Reaper and continue there? Because even after I think, I've mixed and composed it perfectly, I still find little mistakes to correct and if I import the midi data instead of the audio track I still have that option in Reaper, right? While I liked the instant gratification in Staffpad, I learned the hard way that I'd rather have more options to customize the midi data directly to get the perfect mix.
> ...


What @ed buller said, but I'd like to add that with VE Pro you can finish everything within Dorico. Last time I worked on a film I had to match the audio pretty closely to another track the director wanted to use, so I dumped the audio file on an empty Kontakt instance and used it as the reference track. Furthermore, the sound department needed stems of the different sections i.e. horns, strings, etc both dry and wet (not the 1st time I had encountered this request) and with VE Pro it was as easy as soloing groups and exporting.

Just my 2p.


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## ed buller (Jan 19, 2022)

If you are using VE Pro...you could theoretically construct a VE Pro instance that would be accessible in the same way by Dorico and Reaper. Then it should be straightforward ....although Like Bollen I question the need !

best

e


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## MadLad (Jan 19, 2022)

Bollen said:


> What @ed buller said, but I'd like to add that with VE Pro you can finish everything within Dorico. Last time I worked on a film I had to match the audio pretty closely to another track the director wanted to use, so I dumped the audio file on an empty Kontakt instance and used it as the reference track. Furthermore, the sound department needed stems of the different sections i.e. horns, strings, etc both dry and wet (not the 1st time I had encountered this request) and with VE Pro it was as easy as soloing groups and exporting.
> 
> Just my 2p.


So, the Vienna Ensemble Pro handles 3rd party libraries with no problems? I bought BBCSO Core for a start.


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## Maximvs (Jan 19, 2022)

zolhof said:


> You have 4 inserts per channel, one FX channel and a master channel with 4 more inserts. It's more than enough for orchestral mockups, at least for me (I rely on microphones, panning, EQ and reverb) but you will still need a DAW if you want to do any serious sound design or work with audio at all.
> 
> Expression maps, custom playback techniques and playback templates offer a ton of user flexibility, but unlike StaffPad, there's nothing magical about Dorico's playback engine, you will have to teach it how to interpret your score. It's a long, tedious, and worthwhile process, so start small, one articulation at a time. Always use a reference track, IMHO this is crucial if your goal is to produce convincing mockups.
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot for posting these examples, I gather that the Dorico mockup is the first one in each example, correct?

May I ask what sample libraries have you used to create these mockups.

Best regards,

Max


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## Jett Hitt (Jan 19, 2022)

MadLad said:


> So, the Vienna Ensemble Pro handles 3rd party libraries with no problems? I bought BBCSO Core for a start.


IMO VEPro is the most magical piece of software in the music world. It handles just about everything flawlessly. There might be some headaches coming as they transition to iLok. My eLicenser has started to act up a bit since installing Dorico 4. For whatever reason, the plugin to BBCSO fails to load in VEPro, and VEPro crashed the first time I started it after installing Dorico 4. Until recently, when Sine wreaked havoc on VEPro, I never once had an issue with it in any way. It adds stability and efficiency to your system. Highly recommend.


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## Bollen (Jan 19, 2022)

MadLad said:


> So, the Vienna Ensemble Pro handles 3rd party libraries with no problems? I bought BBCSO Core for a start.


I don't have every player in the world, but all the ones I do (Kontakt, UVI, SFZ, Authentic Guitar, Vienna Player Pro, Camel Audio and HISE) work without any issues. Never had a crash except when changing buffer size whilst using Virtual Stage 2.


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## MadLad (Jan 19, 2022)

Thanks for all the replies and helpful advice! I already have BBCSO, soon I'll get Dorico 4. VE Pro will be a later purchase but I'll get that one, too. Let's hope this is a future proof approach to composing music professionally because Staffpad isn't viable anymore.

With time I'll extend the amount of libraries but I'm very content with BBCSO after messing around with it for a bit.


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## ed buller (Jan 19, 2022)

MadLad said:


> Thanks for all the replies and helpful advice! I already have BBCSO, soon I'll get Dorico 4. VE Pro will be a later purchase but I'll get that one, too. Let's hope this is a future proof approach to composing music professionally because Staffpad isn't viable anymore.
> 
> With time I'll extend the amount of libraries but I'm very content with BBCSO after messing around with it for a bit.


You'll need VE Pro. It's just soooooooooooooooo much easier. Asking Dorico to host all your samples is asking for trouble TBH. It's just seemless with it. Worth every penny TBH

best

e


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## Bollen (Jan 19, 2022)

MadLad said:


> Staffpad isn't viable anymore.


I stopped using it too, but I'm wondering what put you off? If you don't mind me asking that is...


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## Bollen (Jan 19, 2022)

MadLad said:


> Are there sales?


Here's one! https://vi-control.net/community/threads/fs-dorico-3-5-pro-on-usb-elicenser.120284/


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## MadLad (Jan 19, 2022)

Bollen said:


> I stopped using it too, but I'm wondering what put you off? If you don't mind me asking that is...


After servandus deleted the thread about the custom playback rules because of the staffpad team's reaction, I'm almost 100% sure they won't ever fix the problems the app has. They don't seem to care that much about the 3rd party libraries anymore, either.

I'm using the app to compose the soundtrack for a video game project and while you get instant gratification with everything you write, if you try to make a FINAL professional product with the app it gets extremely frustrating after a time. No matter what I do, no matter how careful I orchestrate and mix, I can't get something that I deem good enough for a commercial project. The problem is a mix between the bugs that don't get fixed and the restrictions compared to a DAW.
I still will finish the project with Staffpad because I used so much of its 3rd libraries that I don't have for my DAW and almost all the tracks are finished, anyway. As a last resort we might even have to hire a professional mixer who's able to get something worthwhile out of the stems.

With Dorico and an actual stand-alone library like BBCSO as a start, I just hope I get enough customizability to finally get good results and do everything on my own in the future. It's much closer to how the "pros" do it, compared to the rather special approach with Staffpad.

I think that is the future-proof way for me. Staffpad just seems to be a dead end. Man, I sure wish I could get my money back to invest it in this new project.



Bollen said:


> Here's one! https://vi-control.net/community/threads/fs-dorico-3-5-pro-on-usb-elicenser.120284/


I already applied for a discount since I own Finale 2014 and am a student at a university. If it works, I get it for 180€.


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## Bollen (Jan 19, 2022)

MadLad said:


> After servandus deleted the thread about the custom playback rules because of the staffpad team's reaction, I'm almost 100% sure they won't ever fix the problems the app has. They don't seem to care that much about the 3rd party libraries anymore, either.
> 
> I'm using the app to compose the soundtrack for a video game project and while you get instant gratification with everything you write, if you try to make a FINAL professional product with the app it gets extremely frustrating after a time. No matter what I do, no matter how careful I orchestrate and mix, I can't get something that I deem good enough for a commercial project. The problem is a mix between the bugs that don't get fixed and the restrictions compared to a DAW.
> I still will finish the project with Staffpad because I used so much of its 3rd libraries that I don't have for my DAW and almost all the tracks are finished, anyway. As a last resort we might even have to hire a professional mixer who's able to get something worthwhile out of the stems.
> ...


I didn't know any of that... Shame! But now that they've been bought over it might improve or turn into something better!

Did you see my post above?


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## MadLad (Jan 19, 2022)

Bollen said:


> I didn't know any of that... Shame! But now that they've been bought over it might improve or turn into something better!
> 
> Did you see my post above?


I think the MuseScore deal actually made it worse. Now, if they had been bought by Steinberg THAT would have been awesome.

Which post do you mean?


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## Bollen (Jan 19, 2022)

MadLad said:


> I think the MuseScore deal actually made it worse.


Ah good to know!


MadLad said:


> Which post do you mean?


The one right above your previous reply ⬆, we posted at the same time, thought you might've missed it.


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## MadLad (Jan 19, 2022)

Yes, I saw it. Edited my post, accordingly. I can get the deal for Dorico 4 instead of 3.5, so I'll stick with that.


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## PaulieDC (Jan 19, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> Looking at Steinberg's educational licensing and it's not valid for commercial use. I'm not even sure what that would mean for a notation program, though I presume it would apply to any audio that was generated by Dorico. But when I publish a Dorico engraved example in a book, would that be commercial use?


So if you go to a music school and Steinberg gives you a break on the price, and then you graduate and start earning an income writing music, you have to buy another instance of Dorico? I guess all companies are different... I read the licensing on other things I got with EDU (OT, FabFilter and VSL) and I'm pretty sure you can continue to just use it. Hmmmm... usually EDU can't be resold but I thought that was the only gotcha. Guess I'd better check my purchases!


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## jbuhler (Jan 19, 2022)

PaulieDC said:


> So if you go to a music school and Steinberg gives you a break on the price, and then you graduate and start earning an income writing music, you have to buy another instance of Dorico? I guess all companies are different... I read the licensing on other things I got with EDU (OT, FabFilter and VSL) and I'm pretty sure you can continue to just use it. Hmmmm... usually EDU can't be resold but I thought that was the only gotcha. Guess I'd better check my purchases!


In the case of Dorico, I believe there is an upgrade from educational to full license, so it's not quite the case of having to buy it again outright, but yes, my reading of the terms and conditions is that you can't use any educationally licensed Steinberg product for commercial purposes.


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## zolhof (Jan 19, 2022)

Maximvs said:


> Thanks a lot for posting these examples, I gather that the Dorico mockup is the first one in each example, correct?
> 
> May I ask what sample libraries have you used to create these mockups.
> 
> ...


Correct! 

Woodwinds: BBCSO, Audio Modeling
Brass: CineBrass, MSB, BBCSO
Strings: Adagio, Vista, BBCSO
Percussion: BBCSO, CinePerc


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## MadLad (Jan 19, 2022)

PaulieDC said:


> So if you go to a music school and Steinberg gives you a break on the price, and then you graduate and start earning an income writing music, you have to buy another instance of Dorico? I guess all companies are different... I read the licensing on other things I got with EDU (OT, FabFilter and VSL) and I'm pretty sure you can continue to just use it. Hmmmm... usually EDU can't be resold but I thought that was the only gotcha. Guess I'd better check my purchases!


Ok but I don't want to sell my scores, I just want to produce music with 3rd party libraries. Even if I get the educational license, I can still make money with music that's performed by a 3rd party library, right?


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## mopsiflopsi (Jan 19, 2022)

MadLad said:


> I think the MuseScore deal actually made it worse.


I think it's too soon to see any meaningful effects of the acquisition on either side. StaffPad has been busy getting the audio update out the door, MuseScore has been busy getting v4.0 out the door. I wouldn't expect any major course corrections at such pivotal moments.


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## jbuhler (Jan 19, 2022)

MadLad said:


> Ok but I don't want to sell my scores, I just want to produce music with 3rd party libraries. Even if I get the educational license, I can still make money with music that's performed by a 3rd party library, right?


none of it is very well defined, but if you start making significant money with your music you'd likely want to upgrade to a commercial license, especially if you are not affiliated with an educational institution when you are making the money from your music. Not a lawyer and all that, but that's how I would read the intention of the policy.


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## PaulieDC (Jan 19, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> In the case of Dorico, I believe there is an upgrade from educational to full license, so it's not quite the case of having to buy it again outright, but yes, my reading of the terms and conditions is that you can't use any educationally licensed Steinberg product for commercial purposes.


OK, that's better than having to buy the full boat!


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## PaulieDC (Jan 19, 2022)

MadLad said:


> Ok but I don't want to sell my scores, I just want to produce music with 3rd party libraries. Even if I get the educational license, I can still make money with music that's performed by a 3rd party library, right?


I would have said yes, until I read the EDU FAQs just now:

Are there any limitations to the education products?​There are no technical limitations to the education versions. However, *any results that were produced with education products* may not be used commercially and may not be sold.​
UGH. I think your answer is no, you can't use your EDU license for that. Because then they post this:

Is there a possibility to update / upgrade from an education version to a higher version of the software?​Yes, but not at a special education price. Updates and upgrades can be purchased at the regular price from the Steinberg online shop. By updating / upgrading your education version you receive a regular, commercially usable full version.​
I didn't see an upgrade price for EDU-->Commerical. You probably have to write them to ask what the cost from Dorico Pro 4 EDU to Commercial is.

Phooey. Not the best answer I'm afraid.

I found all this at:








Education Discount on Steinberg Products


Many Steinberg products are available at a discounted price as education versions. This discount is available for teachers, schools, institutions and more.




www.steinberg.net


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## PhilA (Jan 20, 2022)

Of course your purchase history says EDU but the license itself is identical.
I remember back in the parallel port dongle days my license and splash screen said Educational use only (Cubase) now it’s just a discount.


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## PhilA (Jan 20, 2022)

Let your conscience decide!


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## MadLad (Jan 20, 2022)

PaulieDC said:


> I would have said yes, until I read the EDU FAQs just now:
> 
> Are there any limitations to the education products?​There are no technical limitations to the education versions. However, *any results that were produced with education products* may not be used commercially and may not be sold.​
> UGH. I think your answer is no, you can't use your EDU license for that. Because then they post this:
> ...


Wow, this is giving me headache already. Now I have to ask support that they just sell me the normal crossgrade from Finale without the EDU license.


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## ssnowe (Jan 20, 2022)

With the educational discount you need to look at intent and purpose. Essentially they are trusting you to use it in the nature it is intended, educational essentially for learning purposes, otherwise pay the full price and make any amount of money you can with it.

No guardian at your door watching you, no monitoring your work or usage, simply an agreement that says “hey, we trust you, do the right thing…”

In my opinion that is rather nice and refreshing and for me personally I will do everything I can to honor that agreement.


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## ModalRealist (Jan 20, 2022)

zolhof said:


> Considering I didn't touch Cubase to create these mockups, I'm pretty satisfied.


Gosh, these were a fun listen! I’ve been considering going the Dorico route with their version 4 and these are making it really tempting. I already use Vienna Ensemble Pro and, whilst I enjoy using Cubase, I always write better music when I’m thinking in notation - despite much effort to see piano roll musically.


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## Jett Hitt (Jan 20, 2022)

For those of you using VEPro with Dorico, how are you setting up/routing VEPro? It seems like the only way that I can get it to work is by creating a separate instance for each instrument, which I'd rather not do, but I can live with it if I have to. (This may just stem from my limited understanding of VEPro.)


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## wcreed51 (Jan 20, 2022)

It works, but is just confusing by how things are labled (and not labeled) and how narrow the VST pane is in Dorico.

In the routing you need to select the VEP instance first, then the instrument you want before you can set the channel Dorico uses.


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## Jett Hitt (Jan 20, 2022)

wcreed51 said:


> It works, but is just confusing by how things are labled (and not labeled) and how narrow the VST pane is in Dorico.
> 
> In the routing you need to select the VEP instance first, then the instrument you want before you can set the channel Dorico uses.


Thank you so much. I finally figured it out with your graphic and a tip from the Dorico forums.


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## ed buller (Jan 20, 2022)

wcreed51 said:


> It works, but is just confusing by how things are labled (and not labeled) and how narrow the VST pane is in Dorico.
> 
> In the routing you need to select the VEP instance first, then the instrument you want before you can set the channel Dorico uses.


yes...this is a tad fiddly !

e


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## wcreed51 (Jan 20, 2022)

I don't think any of the Dorico team use VEP, and it shows. At least you can now hide all the unsued channels in the Mixer!


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## Leigh (Jan 20, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> For those of you using VEPro with Dorico, how are you setting up/routing VEPro? It seems like the only way that I can get it to work is by creating a separate instance for each instrument, which I'd rather not do, but I can live with it if I have to. (This may just stem from my limited understanding of VEPro.)


My latest project is a big band chart. I have one instance of VEPro to connect to the server and the Rhythm Section instruments are on this. Then for winds, trumpets and bones I have additional VEPro Event Input VSTs on ports 2, 3, and 4 to connect to the same VEPro instance.

I do all mixing in VEPro. In VEPro I have the sections bussed to stems, also a soloists bus, and these are sent to a final channel strip with mastering plugs. I can bounce this in Dorico or do a real-time bounce with the Metric Halo Session.

I have a starter Dorico big band template and a starter VEPro big band template. For a new project I just duplicate them and rename the copies. Couldn't be easier for me.

I love this setup. The Dorico mixer, while improved, is still a bad fit for me for the way I work.

**Leigh


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## ed buller (Jan 20, 2022)

wcreed51 said:


> I don't think any of the Dorico team use VEP, and it shows. At least you can now hide all the unsued channels in the Mixer!


actually they pretty much recommend it for large templates. 

e


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## Jett Hitt (Jan 20, 2022)

Another question, though not VEPro related. For those of you using expression maps, is it worth it to get the babylonwaves Cubase expression maps to use with Dorico? I will probably buy the just-released version for Logic, but I am pretty sure that I have to buy it twice to get it for Cubase, too.


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## ptram (Jan 20, 2022)

wcreed51 said:


> I don't think any of the Dorico team use VEP, and it shows.


And it would be a mistake, since many Dorico users use VEP, a natural complement to Dorico.

Paolo


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## Bollen (Jan 20, 2022)

ptram said:


> And it would be a mistake, since many Dorico users use VEP, a natural complement to Dorico.
> 
> Paolo


They should really design their own uncoupled host, since the benefit is so huge in terms of response time!


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## Maximvs (Jan 21, 2022)

zolhof said:


> Correct!
> 
> Woodwinds: BBCSO, Audio Modeling
> Brass: CineBrass, MSB, BBCSO
> ...


Thanks a lot for your kind reply and for listing all the sample libraries you used in those two examples.

I must say that your mockups directly from Dorico 4 are impressive when compared to the reference tracks... Well done!

Kind regards,

Max


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## benwiggy (Jan 21, 2022)

PaulieDC said:


> OK, that's better than having to buy the full boat!


The educational licence is just a discount on the initial purchase. Future upgrade purchases, e.g. from 4 to 5, are at the same upgrade price for all users, and your licence then becomes 'full'.


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## zolhof (Jan 21, 2022)

Maximvs said:


> Thanks a lot for your kind reply and for listing all the sample libraries you used in those two examples.
> 
> I must say that your mockups directly from Dorico 4 are impressive when compared to the reference tracks... Well done!
> 
> ...


Hi Max, very kind of you to say! Thanks!

I went a bit more in detail in another post:






Dorico playback: samples vs noteperformer


Ed, thank you for sharing your experience and being an advocate of using samples with Dorico. I've been testing the waters and I'm extremely impressed. With time, it will undoubtedly get even better. This is such a HUGE time saver! Question 1 - Have you sync'd up Dorico playback with your...




vi-control.net






Adding a few things I forgot to mention, yes, from a MIDI mockup perspective, there are no real compromises in Dorico. And if you have your samples hosted on VEPro, it's easy to import a MIDI file in Cubase, quickly assign ports/channels, and you are basically good to go. I talk further on how I keep everything organized in the link above. 

There are a few things currently disabled in Play mode, though, that may or may not affect you: tempo track and pitchbend editing. It is still possible to create regular tempo events in Write mode, and read pitchbend data, but not to edit them in Play mode.

I do a ton of tempo automation, so that was a bit of an issue for me at first. However, we can open 4.0 projects in 3.5, edit the tempo and then export the tempo track back to 4.0. Same applies to the pitchbend, I tend to give a nudge here and there on solo players (intonation), so I'm currently using 3.5 for that. Just know that any item or notation not supported by 3.5 will be removed from the project, in case you resave the file.

Anyway, @Daniel S. said the missing features will come as soon as possible, so they are definitely working on it.


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## PaulieDC (Jan 21, 2022)

benwiggy said:


> The educational licence is just a discount on the initial purchase. Future upgrade purchases, e.g. from 4 to 5, are at the same upgrade price for all users, and your licence then becomes 'full'.


Good to know. 👍


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## Maximvs (Jan 22, 2022)

zolhof said:


> Hi Max, very kind of you to say! Thanks!
> 
> I went a bit more in detail in another post:
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot for your kind reply, the other post link and all the additional information, much appreciated!

I have also read that an update is in the work for Dorico 4 to enable the tempo track and other useful things... I am sure it won't be long before we can disgard Dorico 3.5 and only use version 4  

Take care,
Max


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## Joe Grant (Oct 11, 2022)

Hello all - found this old thread. I have a few questions on Dorico. Apologies if this has been answered elsewhere. My main questions: 

* Is Dorico DAW agnostic (stand alone) or is it tied to Cubase? I know Steinberg is the developer for Dorico, but I use Studio One for my DAW. Will that present any issues? 
* This will be my first venture into notation software and want to make a wise choice on the platform from the start. Seems like Dorico is getting it right from what I have read.

Some additional context, I am an Apple user (Macbook Pro M1 Max + Ipad Pro). Looking for something accurate, flexible and user friendly interface/features.

Thanks in advance for any assistance.


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## Bollen (Oct 11, 2022)

jgrant0173 said:


> Is Dorico DAW agnostic (stand alone) or is it tied to Cubase?


Stand-alone.


jgrant0173 said:


> Will that present any issues?


No.


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## benwiggy (Oct 12, 2022)

jgrant0173 said:


> Looking for something accurate, flexible and user friendly interface/features.


Dorico is very user-friendly -- provided that you are prepared to sit down with a cup of tea and read through some of the documentation, watch some of the videos, and learn how it works. Don't expect to just gawp at the screen and understand everything that it does. 😁

It's actually very consistent in the way things work, so once you know how one thing is done, you can likely guess how that applies to something else.


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