# I need "career" advice



## G.E. (Jan 5, 2014)

I know some people don't like to answer this type of questions but please go ahead and answer no matter how harsh your answer will be.

So I want to be a composer but my real job is software programmer.I make quite a lot of money,at least it's more than enough for my needs.But I'm extremely unhappy and I hate my work.I'm actually a decent programmer but I chose this path because I was thinking only about the money.I basically hate my life haha. 

I want to some day be a full time composer but the problem with that is that I literally learned the words "chord" and "scale" for the first time ,no more than a year and a half ago.I have no real experience and most importantly I work 10-11 hours a day most of the time and when I come home it's already night time.Who has the energy to practice composing after coming home at 9 PM every night? I'm not trying to make excuses but I just can't do it.I still spend my entire weekend messing around with music,trying to learn something but that's not enough.I just want more time to make music.

I'm 21 years old and I'm thinking that maybe(just maybe) I still have a chance to do something I actually love for a living.I basically have enough money saved up to last me at least 3 years.I'm thinking of quitting my job so I can have time to learn all I want about composing.Am I crazy ? 

Fuck the money ! I was just thinking the other day...I can afford any sample library I want but there are still people out there who can make better music than I do by using just free vst synths and a free DAW haha.

Here are my latest tracks:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMB5-PeCrW0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AkYC78E_TI

I know they are not much right now since I have very little experience.But do you see any potential in me ? Do you think that I have what it takes to maybe in a few years be able to make a living composing ?

I say that my tracks aren't much but maybe I should take myself more seriously and believe that I'm better than I actually am.I seem to notice that people who make music much worse than me, actually have "fans" who take them seriously just because they think so much of themselves.That blows my mind !

So I already learned a lesson.No matter how shitty your music is,if you take yourself seriously,others will do the same haha.


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## AC986 (Jan 5, 2014)

G.E. @ Sun Jan 05 said:


> Fuck the money ! I was just thinking the other day...I can afford any sample library I want but there are still people out there who can make better music than I do by using just free vst synths and a free DAW haha.



Then that may be a bit of an issue straight off the bat right?

What I would do before you get hasty is to maybe write 12 tracks all in the same genre/style and send them to music libraries and see if they will take them on, or at least ask for something else.

That way you keep your day job and see how music pans out at the same time and no damage done.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 5, 2014)

At your age, I was still trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my life. 30 years later, and lots of hard work, and ups and down, I've achieved my version of success (I do what I love everyday, and get well-paid for it too). It's terrific that you've already realized that you're going in the wrong path, one that gives you grief instead of joy.

Yes, you have enough talent to have a career, but it's going to take a while, so enjoy the trip to get 'there'. The most important thing is that you stay in touch with your heart, your artistic needs and aspirations.

Now lend me some money to buy another synth.

:lol:


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## Martin K (Jan 5, 2014)

I'd say do it!  

There's nothing worse than waking up every morning knowing you'll hate what you're about to do that day. Sounds to me like you're in a better position (financially) than most to actually do something about it.

Yeah you got plenty of potential, but as mentioned already, it takes time and a lot of hard work. If you get paid more than you need and got 3 years worth of savings at 21, what do you really have to lose? You can always go back to programming later if money becomes an issue.

best,
Martin


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## rgames (Jan 5, 2014)

Of course the odds are against you, but since you're only 21, you have plenty of time to change course if those odds are realized. As already said, keep your programming chops up-to-date and you can always go back. You should know in 3-4 years whether or not it will actually work out. And that's fine.

But you have to *really* want it. I mean that in a crack cocaine sort of way (not joking). The fact that you're thinking about it rationally is a bad sign. But again, you have time to recover from a potentially bad move.

Wandering around in your twenties is fine. Wandering around in your thirties is sketchy. Wandering around in your forties is bad. So try what you want but make sure you have a path forward by your late twenties.

The only thing you must *not* do is bury yourself under a pile of debt that you can't repay in 3-5 years (unless it's for a real estate purchase, like a house). That will leave a burden to both yourself and the society within which you live.

rgames


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## mr (Jan 5, 2014)

Hi G.E.,

after reading your post, a few things came to my mind, because I was in a similar situation a couple of years ago. I am just going to write them down and apologize if they are missing some overall structure.

1. Be sure to really identify your the underlying problem. Being unhappy with your current job as a programmer and wanting to become a composer are two different issues. You shouldn't quit your job and become a composer because you hate your current job as a programmer. I would suggest to ask yourself "Why am I unhappy with my current job" first. Maybe it is because you work all by yourself all day, maybe because you sit in front of a screen a lot, maybe you don't get along with your current client (all of this will happen to you as a composer, too). After all, you did chose to become a programmer and you seem to be good at it. 

2. The money thing - although money is not everything, depending on your income level, more money does make you happier. The quality of your life will increase a lot, if you make 70k instead 30k a year, but if you go from 130k to 170k, the increase in "happiness" might not as big.

3. You are young, you probably don't have wife/kids yet, so why not try something? 

4. If you try it for a few years, the "true costs" however are: 
+ All of your living expenses (including healthcare etc.), assuming you live of your savings
+ The money you don't make as a programmer in that time
+ The difference between your future programmer salary (in three years you will have advanced in your career as a programmer, thus higher income) and composer salary (assuming prog. salary will be higher for some time for various reasons)
Might be well worth it though 

5. You will be up against those who started with music when they were kids and (much more important) want to do nothing else but make music. Ask yourself: Is "writing/composing music" the only thing that fulfills you? Because you will have to pitch against those whose answer is "yes".

6. If you enjoy writing beautiful melodies with lush chords, if you enjoy to really take your time to finish a track, if you like to do music when you feel like it, if you like to compose only when a good idea comes, then you might not have much fun with the daily working routine as a composer. When I started a temporary job as inhouse composer/producer, one of the toughest challenges was the constant need to be creative (of some sort). You come in in the morning, get your briefing, really have no idea what to do but at the same time know you have to present a layout before lunchbreak, and tomorrow it will be the same thing again 
I got used to it though 

Anyways - music can be an amazing hobby to enjoy!!

7. At least in central Europe, many composers are self-employed. So besides being a good composer, it helps if you are comfortable with talking to potential clients (sell your product) and with everything else that comes with being an entrepreneur.

8. In the end, nobody can make this decision but you. The stuff I said was certainly not meant to discourage. If you really really want to do it, go for it.

All the best!


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## G.E. (Jan 5, 2014)

There's a lot to think about...Thanks for all the great advice ! When I'll be the top composer in Hollywood I'll remember that you were the ones who gave me advice in the beginning.Just kidding obviously haha.I would be happy just to score a few indie films here and there. 



mr @ Mon Jan 06 said:


> 5. You will be up against those who started with music when they were kids and (much more important) want to do nothing else but make music. Ask yourself: Is "writing/composing music" the only thing that fulfills you? Because you will have to pitch against those whose answer is "yes".



This actually is my main,if not only concern.Composing music is all I want to do and I'm perfectly fine with all the challenges of needing to write something when I don't feel like it.That's actually what I do for my current job hehe.

But the real concern is that I'm going up against people who have been doing it since they were kids and I don't know if I stand a chance.
On the other hand I look at Daniel James (I assume many of you know him since he's a member on this forum) and I can see myself composing at his level in 4 years maybe if I work hard enough.(I'm NOT saying that he's not a great composer.I love his music and he's a great inspiration for me)
I think he mentioned that he started composing after finishing college when he was about my age.I know he had some prior musical experience before that but I'm not sure exactly what kind or how much.


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## kdm (Jan 5, 2014)

I will echo some of mr's advice perhaps from a different perspective.

Leaving a successful programming career is a dangerous move. What if composing doesn't work out? No matter how talented you are, the odds are against you - it is a very difficult career - one of the top 10 most challenging in the world.

You can't always go back to programming if you leave too much of a gap in your experience when you are competing with sharp programmers who stayed within the field from day 1 after an impressive college degree program. You are in what I would say is the most flexible career today, if you stick with it. I left engineering development (hardware/software) for music years ago. Now I can't go back. It's a one way ticket after about 8-10 years. Your likelihood of making in composing what you can in programming are even more slim than just making a basic living composing (this isn't based on your music, just the industry itself). 

Composing is often more about selling yourself than it is about being incredibly talented, so some who seem to have less than prodigy-level talent can be successful. But, and this is a very big *BUT* - that is the exception, not the rule. There are incredibly talented composers here, and thousands more not on any forum, that for whatever reason - and usually not for lack of exposure, talent to salesmanship - are not making a living. 

The industry is changing rapidly, and not for the better. Budgets are declining faster than any other field as far as I can tell (the arts in general are in serious jeopardy in the US at least). The prospects of there being a good path to making a living 5 or 10 years from now are very bleak. The top end will remain, but the midrange, which used to support 95% of the composing careers and build the future top end artists, may not survive much longer. There will likely be no entry point for prospective composers to "work their way up" without landing an assisting gig with an established composer, and those options are very very few. 

Think about what you will do if you decide to leave the single life and have a family. Pay for kids' college? Pay for healthcare (which is quite expensive now for self-employed people, like us)? Pay for new libraries? The composers that buy every new library are either successful (and single, or very successful with a family), or working good paying day jobs. 

Think about how you will transition from making a few hundred here or there to whatever you need to support yourself or a family, save for retirement, etc. It's that transitional area from living off of your savings to paying all of your bills, and then some, that is the most challenging part of this career.

Think long term here. You might have some talent now, but it really takes quite a lot of talent (among other things), to truly stand out when it counts early on, and then again to truly become successful enough to survive the long haul. And even if you hit some success in 5, 10 or 20 years, how long will it last? Long enough to save for retirement? Unfortunately, the odds there are also heavily against all of us, regardless of talent and success now. 

I know this isn't the "pursue your dreams" reply you might prefer to hear, but as mr suggested, separate your dislike for your current job from the dream of composing. 

Have you ever thought of moving within the programming field to a more creatively satisfying position or company? Once you leave, and run out of money, you won't be able to keep up with the latest libraries, or buy the latest gear - you will have nothing buy your raw talent and networking skills to support you.

Be brutally honest with yourself and your chances of being successful in either career, or you could end up regretting your decision 20 years down the road. If I were you, I would give it a bit more time to sort out and evaluate your potential before making a move.


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## Daryl (Jan 5, 2014)

I think the best thing you can do is be determined to learn as much as you can about music. This doesn't necessarily mean take a course of any sort, but if you have a genre that you think you would want to write in, you need to learn as much as possible about it.

You are right that there are many other people wanting to do the same thing as you. Possibly they are all as talented or more talented than you are. So you have to make sure that you have something to offer that they don't. You can't reply on luck. You must be as good as you possibly can, so that when you do get your chance, you blow the competition out of the water.Forget money. Learn to live on as little as possible. People who get used to a certain income often struggle if it goes down. I would never have got into composing full time if I had needed to keep up a certain level of income.

D


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## markwind (Jan 5, 2014)

Hey ,

Great Topic mate. I'm much in the same boat as you, in terms of making that switch. Difference is, i'm 28 and started composing 2013, but I'm more then committed to make this work. I never really thought about music in the sense of making it myself, I kind of grew to that realization. But once I realized it, I simply felt home, where so many of my traits finally connect with what I actually want to do. I have the confidence I can make this work, building up a proper network, and growing as a composer. 

And I have to be frank, I would go into this path, regardless of what anyone would say to me. Even if everyone on this forum would recommend me to do something else . Which is really atypical for me if you know me even a little. And of course negative feedback hurts a little, even though I always gladly take it in consideration, but once I decided I am somehow going to make life work as a fulltime composer, things clicked in a way deep enough that it doesn't deter me. Which doesn't mean I never doubt, myself, my future, my music, but I try to really rise above that doubt on my own accord if that makes any sense.

Will everything pan out as I hope it will? No-one knows, but I am enjoying myself thoroughly trying to build it all up . I'm not sure if you can take anything out of this, as I'm certainly in the same boat as you, but if I would put any sort of advice into words, then i'd say; not to look at what other people are offering, being able to do, how they made it work, focus on you, your work, your music, the feeling in your music, the people you get to know. The best thing, about starting off so relatively late in life for me, is how I can translate life experiences into this new thing I'm building up and how incredible self-damaging, self-doubt is.

Should you choose/try to be a composer? I believe there shouldn't be an answer in this or any topic/forum, anywhere. If you haven't found your answer yet, then trust that it comes to you in time. Because I believe it's strongly connected with a sense of who you are and that sense only develops over time. 


I really don't go with quotes often, but Powels is pretty strong:

"I always say - if someone you respect tells you that you should give up, then you should give up... and if you do give up...... then you should give up......what the fuck are you listening to that tosser for. If you are going to take advice from anyone, only take the advice that you want to hear. If fear of how long it might take you to achieve your goal is that important to you, then perhaps..."
http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/show ... hp?t=23577


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## G.E. (Jan 5, 2014)

@kdm If those things weren't on my mind I would've already quit my job by now instead of sitting here having anxiety and panic attacks about my life haha.

Warning ! The following paragraphs are going to be extremely corny :

I've recently read a book called Mastery by Robert Greene and it only reinforced my beliefs.Maybe some of you are familiar with it but basically the overall message of the book is that mastery can only be achieved if you're doing something that you truly enjoy and feel passionate about.

After that I sat back trying to remember the days of my childhood and realized that I was always into more creative things than anything else.As a kid I self taught myself how to draw and many other things.I'm still a pretty damn good drawer though haha.Also my biggest fantasy was to be a musician, but as I grew older,all my creativity got killed by society and my parents pushing me to be just another cog and to do what pays more. Programming doesn't really allow me to be creative.

This is gonna sound even more corny but I remember when I decided to make up for lost time and finally started learning piano,everything made sense.I could learn and make music all day.When I finally get to work on some music I some times get so into it that I spend the whole day in front of my DAW and keyboard,even forgetting to eat.

But then I come back to reality and remember that I have bills to pay haha.
Mark I admire that you have the balls to do this at 28 but I still can't decide.


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## ryanstrong (Jan 5, 2014)

Personally I don't see why you can't do both. I do. I actually do composing plus a million other things.

If you are working for a corporation as a software programmer why not do it freelance/solo so you still have a stream of income and you are able to make your own hours, then work on music and composing while your not programming.

It's also a great way to make composing clients too - as a graphic designer a director contacted me about doing the poster and DVD artwork for his film, I had asked if he had a composer and he said not yet so I pitched him a couple cues to a scene or two and I ended up landing the job to score my first feature film and now we are working on another feature together.

Just a thought!


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## G.E. (Jan 5, 2014)

ryanstrong @ Mon Jan 06 said:


> Personally I don't see why you can't do both. I do. I actually do composing plus a million other things.
> 
> If you are working for a corporation as a software programmer why not do it freelance/solo so you still have a stream of income and you are able to make your own hours, then work on music and composing while your not programming.
> 
> ...



I work from 9-10 AM to 8-9 PM.It depends...When we're really close to a deadline I even get home at 11 PM.So this job is a no-no.Finding another job with a better schedule in this economy? Good luck with that ! I don't have the connections to work freelance as a programmer.I do have a blog where I make a few bucks from ad revenue but it's not enough to live on.I do have a few ideas bouncing around my head though,including getting into graphic design because I know my way around photoshop but again,I need to establish those connections first.


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## Justin Miller (Jan 5, 2014)

How many jobs have you actually done composing? The actual process of working with others (directors, producers, etc.) is entirely different from just composing on your own... It can be better, but also much more stressful and disheartening. If you haven't done many paying gigs yet, I'd wait until you actually see how the business end of the composing job works.


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## choc0thrax (Jan 5, 2014)

G.E. @ Sun Jan 05 said:


> I know some people don't like to answer this type of questions but please go ahead and answer no matter how harsh your answer will be.
> 
> So I want to be a composer but my real job is software programmer.I make quite a lot of money,at least it's more than enough for my needs.But I'm extremely unhappy and I hate my work.I'm actually a decent programmer but I chose this path because I was thinking only about the money.I basically hate my life haha.
> 
> ...



Since you're still quite new to composing I have to wonder if you've scored to picture before? I used to happily noodle around and make music and thought a career composing would be nice until I actually had to score to picture.

I fucking hated it.

Like I wanted to kill someone. I quickly quit my dreams after that and went into a similar but different creative field. 

While you don't seem to care much about money at this point and are probably willing to work hard there's a lot more to it. Like, how is your ability to cope with despair? And are you good at letting relationships fall by the wayside and die?


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## dannthr (Jan 5, 2014)

What kind of programming do you do?


Is it really your parents fault for not letting you become a composer?

Your claim to have wanted it all your life if only society would have let you is a bit dramatic.

Why did you pick Programming over Electrical Engineering, Business, or Law--or some other lucrative career path? Were your parents the ones that pushed you into programming, did they demand it? Code or die?

A career in composition requires momentum. You don't just suddenly have the qualifications and get work--that's not how things go down.

There are three main things required to get work composing and if you do not have all three, you will NOT get work:

1) Production Skill - You have to be able to deliver quality production--you have to know the tech, know how to handle it, understand the media, and know how to deliver on-time and at specification.

2) Apparent Talent - You have to appear talented. I don't care for the word "talent" because it's the lay-person's excuse for why they aren't good at something and it explains-away the everyday hard work required to be excellent at your art and pretends it's some kind of inherited trait. Nonetheless, you have to appear talented to the gate-keepers to work. This doesn't mean that you have to have skill or be an excellent craftsman to get work--you just have to look like it. For most of your career, this will only be apparent from your credit list as most people aren't interested in engaging unproven "talent."

3) Network. There aren't really like job postings for this sort of work (it happens, but for legitimate work, it's extremely rare) because there are so many people that do this work that most producers, directors, or supervisors in a position to hire a composer will just draw up a mental list of people they feel would be perfect for the gig. For many composers, this means that they will be expected to only be capable of the kind of work they've already done in previous gigs--so type-casting is very common. But, and this is probably one of the most important aspects of this sort of job, you have to be known for them to even put you on a short list of potential candidates.

Because of this, you're job is to be known, to be known for your production savvy and your apparent talent.

And working composers work the same hours you're working now because in this job, there isn't time off, there's just time you're not spending in your studio. 

A freelancer just means you're working ever free hour you have.

And if you don't have work right now, then one or all three of these things are weak for you. So when you aren't working, every free hour you have needs to be spent working on these three things.

I don't know what you're capable of achieving in 4 years of study, but you might as well start devoting every free hour you currently have toward this endeavor, since you only spend 60 hours a week at your current job.

It should be pretty easy to add at least 20 more hours and if you're serious, you could definitely put in 40 more.

I think you need to stop blaming other people for your situation, it's not your parents fault, it's not your jobs fault, etc., etc., etc.

Just start composing and take it seriously. 

You're not starting a new career-path, buddy, you're taking on a life-long attempt to master an art form.


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## G.E. (Jan 5, 2014)

No jobs composing,no experience.I do like to take my favorite trailers/scenes and score them for fun but that's obviously noting like a real work situation.Of course I don't expect it to be all rainbows and unicorns.Nothing in this world is...

If I don't have time to actually get better at this I will never have the chance to get a paying gig and see how it all works.Does that make sense ?



choc0thrax @ Mon Jan 06 said:


> Like, how is your ability to cope with despair? And are you good at letting relationships fall by the wayside and die?



Despair ? Wait,what ??? But yes,I'm already very good at letting relationships fall by the wayside actually... It can't be any worse than it is now in that regard.


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## G.E. (Jan 5, 2014)

dannthr @ Mon Jan 06 said:


> What kind of programming do you do?
> 
> 
> Is it really your parents fault for not letting you become a composer?
> ...



I loved your no-bullshit post and I appreciate it.I agree with you on almost everything,especially the part about talent.But I can't agree on the part about parents.Ask any psychologist and you will see that for the most part we are what the people around us and our parents make us.Especially when we're very young.I obviously deserve most of the blame.But I'm not really trying to blame anyone.I just want to make some changes. I'm not complaining about working long hours.I'm mostly complaining that I don't get that much time to focus on what I actually like.


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## Ed (Jan 5, 2014)

G.E. @ Sun Jan 05 said:


> No jobs composing,no experience.I do like to take my favorite trailers/scenes and score them for fun but that's obviously noting like a real work situation.Of course I don't expect it to be all rainbows and unicorns.Nothing in this world is...



From my experience, even if your goal is to score Hollywood features, start in at the bottom with a catalogue of library music. I would suggest this to any young composer. It would be harder later in life switching careers, especially those with families, but for them I would say its probably even more important they do it this way.

If you like trailers, and trailer music, as much as I hate to invite even more people to do what I do, if you can write great trailer/promo music libraries WILL want it. If you write enough and its in a library with good distribution and reputation you will get plays and good to very very good royalties coming in. 

If you dont do this and just try and just get film scoring jobs, then its extremely risky, because even if you get 1 good job, and even if it pays decently, you then have to get the next and the next and the next. You're also always living on the edge of financial ruin. Library music can be your only career, but it can also be a way to make sure you will always have some money coming in. I cant say how good you are, I can only assume you are good. "Trailer Music"/"Promo Music" can be learned and if you really set your mind to it you can learn to do it and do it well, and then you can spend a few years writing as many quality tracks as you can and getting them published then by then you'll be in a good shape. It depends what financial state you want to be in by the end of that, but I'd say after 3 years of dedicated work in this area you *could *be earning very good money on royalties alone (and/or licences.) 

After that? Do what you want. But now you would actually be able to, financially speaking. For someone with a family already or intending to change careers, they can now do this relatively comfortably even its taken a bit longer.

As someone starting out you'll not have a ton of libraries, however you don't need them necessarily to write this kind of music. Specific software can be very useful, and its these I would invest in, but if you are good at sound design and use what you have you could do everything theoretically with Zebra and free stuff you find everywhere. You might not be able to get a specific sound, but I think its less about a specific sound in an orchestra library (coming from someone who has loads and loads of libs) its looking at your colours and seeing what you can paint with them. Hope that makes sense....


EDIT: 

Hope you see this edit... I just listened to those tracks. I'd say based on those tracks, you definitely do have what it takes to write the kind of music necessary. Not because they are tracks that are "correct", but because I can see the right potential for learning what you'd need to learn. I could suggest other avenues for your music, such as looking at Indie games, and they could and probably should be things you look at as well, but what i suggested IMO is the best option for you.


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## dannthr (Jan 5, 2014)

Again, what kind of programming do you do?


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## G.E. (Jan 5, 2014)

@Ed Trailer music is actually very appealing to me.Thanks for the advice ! Good stuff ! I didn't even know there are libraries looking for this kind of stuff.



dannthr @ Mon Jan 06 said:


> Again, what kind of programming do you do?



C,C++,Java,PHP,etc...I do a lot of stuff


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## Ed (Jan 5, 2014)

Hey just made an edit G.E. For what its worth. Not saying Im right, just that its my experience.


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## G.E. (Jan 5, 2014)

Ed @ Mon Jan 06 said:


> Hey just made an edit G.E. For what its worth. Not saying Im right, just that its my experience.



I'm willing to explore all possibilities as long as I get to write music.trailers,films,games,commercials,whatever really... I would especially enjoy trailer music because Two steps from hell type of tracks are what initially got me interested in doing this.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 5, 2014)

Forget trailers, that's flooded with stuff that a million times as good as you. No offense.
Look for something where there's still lots of growth. 
Spend time developing your own sound.
Take chances, spend hours noodling.
Jam with others.
MEET YOUNG DIRECTORS/EDITORS, and make friends, offer free stuff. When they grow, they'll take you with them.
And above all... don't listen to us!! 
:wink:


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## dannthr (Jan 5, 2014)

No, not what languages do you code in--what kind of work do you do? What _kind_ of programming do you do?

Do you develop medical informatics software for hospitals? Do you develop Operating Systems for cellular phones? Do you program tools for biotech companies? Do you ___________ for ___________?

What kind of programming do you do? What is your job? Why do you hate it? Do you merely hate it because it requires you to program code? Then why did you go into programming? Was your father a programmer and his father before him? Were you expected to uphold the family crest of programming?

Again, what is your job and why did you choose it?

Why did you pick programming over Mechanical Engineering? Why did you pick programming over becoming a Doctor? Why did you choose programming and why are you so eager to leave it?

Programming alone isn't a job--what you do while your programming is your job, so what is that? What do you work on, what do you develop?


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## G.E. (Jan 5, 2014)

That's irrelevant really.There's no point in discussing why I picked this over mechanical engineering.


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## marclawsonmusic (Jan 5, 2014)

G.E. @ Sun Jan 05 said:


> I know some people don't like to answer this type of questions but please go ahead and answer no matter how harsh your answer will be.



Since you probably know HTML, you will appreciate this... 

<rant>
You asked for it, so here goes...

You do not have the obstacles that many "older" folks have. You didn't say anything about kids, so I assume you don't have any? If you do, try composing when you have a house full of kids and a wife that you care about (many guys on this board do)... Oh yeah, you STILL have to work that day job to pay for all of it...

But, no, maybe that didn't work out and you are divorced? OK, well now you have to pay child support. Try composing when you once had kids, but lost them cause your ex is a spiteful bitch (again, many guys on this board, too). Now, you never see your kids (whom you still care about very much), but still have to pay for them... Well, _not exactly_... Because your "child support" check actually goes to your ex and her NEW GUY (you know, the same guy she was cheating on you with when you were still married to her?), and their yearly vacation. Oh, and a new car too... And don't forget the monthly maid service! You live in a shack, your kids don't have shoes, haircuts, or basic necessities, but the ex gets her new car and that fucking vacation!!!

So NOW the high-paying IT job has become a prison... not a means to YOUR ends, but a means to SOMEONE ELSE'S end... Oh yeah, and you still want to write music? SURE... do it in your spare time, but DON'T LOSE THAT HIGH-PAYING IT JOB. If you do, the ex will file contempt and you (my friend) will go *STRAIGHT TO FUCKING JAIL*... you won't pass GO, you won't collect $200... You'll just be in there with the other loser "deadbeat dads". 

So, yeah, talk about angst? That's some real angst, buddy.
</rant>

My point is this... it's all about perspective. You, my friend, have the world at your fingertips, but just don't see it.

Bottom line... decide what you want to do and do it. "Do or do not... there is no try", eh? If you are working too much, then work less. If you want to take 3 years off to write music, do it. Quit writing about it on a forum and just do it. Nothing is standing in your way.

Oh, you asked about "talent"? Let me give you a quote from someone much wiser and more successful than me (Stephen King):

*"Talent is cheaper than table salt. What separates the talented individual from the successful one is a lot of hard work."*

On that note, I need to get to work. 

Long days and pleasant nights, young man!


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## G.E. (Jan 5, 2014)

marclawsonmusic @ Mon Jan 06 said:


> G.E. @ Sun Jan 05 said:
> 
> 
> > I know some people don't like to answer this type of questions but please go ahead and answer no matter how harsh your answer will be.
> ...



My favorite post so far.Though I hope you weren't talking about yourself.I see your point.


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## kmlandre (Jan 5, 2014)

Hi G.E.-

If your programming skills are as sharp as you say they are, why not consider moving into contracting? Get yourself a three-month gig, then take three months off to devote entirely to composing, then pick up another short-term contract. I work the nerd sector myself and in my market that's a fairly easy thing to do, especially since you don't have a wife, kids, or (presumably) a mortgage to consider.

I went and listened to a number of your other works on YouTube tonight, and you definitely have talent. However, there's a few instrumentation skills that could be improved (voice leading, familiarity with the instruments to evoke a realistic performance, large scale structuring of a piece, etc.). 

These are all mere "skills", though, and can largely be learned through classes, reading, and practice. If you already have the base talent - which you do - it's merely a matter of applying focus. It's not like trying to teach calculus to a gerbil.

I'd start with Peter Alexander's courses (I'm not affiliated with him, btw - I just like his self-paced approach and they're definitely affordable) and see what kind of improvements you notice in your writing.

And if you don't already know how, LEARN TO NOTATE! Yes, it's a somewhat archaic skill and yes it can be a real headache maker at first, but you'll find your ability to analyze other people's music and your own is far and away worth the trouble. And if you ever get to put your music in front of other people, you'll be miles ahead.

But in the end, you may find that the business of music is really that - more business than music - and you'll be forced to continue to cramp the joyous act of writing into as small a space as you do now. 

You'll have to simply accept that - it's the way things work - or devote yourself to "amateur" pursuits, in which you'll have more time to do what you want, but less fame/reward/options. Either choice can be extremely rewarding, but be sure not to confuse the options of either path.

Kurt M. Landre'
http://www.SoundCloud.com/kmandre


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## markwind (Jan 6, 2014)

G.E. @ Mon Jan 06 said:


> But then I come back to reality and remember that I have bills to pay haha.
> Mark I admire that you have the balls to do this at 28 but I still can't decide.



Then why decide now? If you can't, then who is making you? Why is this an issue that needs answering as opposed to you finding out over time? You can read everyone's opinion about this matter, experienced and unexperienced, but the fact remains is you can't decide. Unless you truly need concrete pros and cons, there's only time that will tell.


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## Jetzer (Jan 6, 2014)

Ned Bouhalassa @ January 6th said:


> Forget trailers, that's flooded with stuff that a million times as good as you. No offense.
> Look for something where there's still lots of growth.
> Spend time developing your own sound.
> Take chances, spend hours noodling.
> ...



Love this post  

Lot's of good advice around here. Some really realistic, to the point, others in a more positive sort of "go for it" fashion. I am sort of in the same boat, around the same age. The thing is, I have a part-time job, still live at home which means I can save good amounts of money. Right now I am just focusing on becoming better as a composer and making contacts. I have plans for making an album as well as composing for media. 

Am I ever going to make a living out of this? I have no idea, but I am going to try. I have graduated as a marketeer, a wide and interesting field but not what I really want to do. Still, if needed, I might get a job in that field. I am only 22 and already (think I) know what I want to do for a living. Hell, I know people of fifty who still have no clue. That is something valuable. How many people go out of college knowing exactly what they want to do? To actually do it and make a living is another thing, but at this age I think it is stupid not to even try. Along the way I will get to know lot's of interesting creative people, even if it doesn't make me any money, it might get me some new friendships. 

Part-time programmer, part-time composer is not an option?


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## Peter Alexander (Jan 6, 2014)

Based on what you wrote, I think you can make it for these reasons:

1. You've identified what you want.
2. You've identified you're not happy in what you're doing and you want a change.
3. You've identified you know how to plan and save.
4. You've identified that you're confident in yourself.

4 good success traits. So start here.
http://www.amazon.com/Think-Grow-Rich-Original-Unedited-ebook/dp/B009P4MH26/ref=sr_1_4?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1389001031&sr=1-4&keywords=think+and+grow+rich (http://www.amazon.com/Think-Grow-Rich-O ... +grow+rich)

Set an action plan for yourself. Composers who've had the most long term success did not learn from a formal school but rather from selected books and private teachers. Take piano lessons and get up to at least grade level 2 (4 is better) with your keyboard skills. This will save you hours of production time over the years.

Build a solid foundation and you'll get there faster. Slow is fast.


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## Daniel James (Jan 6, 2014)

Hey G.E,

Its certainly a tough industry to get into but if you have a good foundation to work from its totally achievable. Like you mentioned in your post getting to my 'level' of composition probably wont even take you 4 years, I am not particularly good at 'scoring'....but I AM good at being me. 

Now I listened to your cues and I can clearly hear you lifted whole sections of my track Hills Of Mist for your Land Of The Brave cue and that makes me worry a little a bit about your career direction. While you may easily be able to get to my skill level when it comes to programming in 4 years you shouldn't get there by just repeating the things I do...you should at look at the artistic choices I made while creating them and use the theory or principle behind it to write something completely unique to you....otherwise after the 4 years of trying to get to where I am you may find you have picked up alot of my bad habits which will make parts of your work be reminiscent of mine (or any other composers you borrow techniques from)....the major problem with that is you will be competing with the composers you borrowed from, who had those skills 4 years ago and have used the 4 years to refine their own voice. 

Now don't take this as me taking a dig or anything at you, and I don't mind the parts of my cue being lifted (although a credit would be nice) because I know you are still learning and pushing for the ambition of being a composer which I 100% support. You just have to be careful that you are not learning the 'wrong way' as imitation will only get you so far. In the position you are in now, copying other composer is a great learning tool, just make sure you dont start accepting imitation as the way to get the job done.

-DJ


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## AC986 (Jan 6, 2014)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sun Jan 05 said:


> Forget trailers, that's flooded with stuff that a million times as good as you. No offense.



That's the best thought here so far. 

Then look at the other styles which are legion. Then there's going to 250 guys and gals on this forum alone that can do it better than you right now. No offence either.

Think you can do minimalist music better than me? Prove it. 
Think you can do ambient music better than Ned? Prove it.
Think you can write JW style better than Verta? Prove it.
Think you can do Thomas Newman better than Ed? Prove it.
Think you can do bombast better than Daniel? Prove it.
Can you Rock a Riff like errrrr Riff? Prove it. 
Can you talk the hind legs off a donkey like Jay? You proved it already!
And so on.
I could make this joke ridden but that's not going to help.

Not trying to be the neighbour from hell here, just playing Devils advocate.

Ed said it to you and I said it at the top. Get into writing a style for a library and see what happens first before you go jacking in your job. It's good advice, but at the same time good luck in your venture.


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## TheUnfinished (Jan 6, 2014)

I'd say two things...

1) If you're still unsure over whether to make this jump, bear in mind that those people you're "competing" with probably didn't hesitate and have been doing it for years.

2) However, you're 21. If you start now, you can still take many more years than the three you can currently afford to get where you need to be. I'm 38. I started taking music seriously only about two and a half to three years ago. So... it's also never too late, if you feel you're not ready to make the jump yet.

I'm always one for taking a risk. You've little to lose at the moment. Take advantage of that to discover your own voice, don't be a carbon copy of someone else. You can only go so far being a cheap version of 'Composer A' - because when the serious money/job turns up, people will go for Composer A and not you, because they don't need you anymore.


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## G.E. (Jan 6, 2014)

Daniel James @ Mon Jan 06 said:


> Hey G.E,
> 
> Its certainly a tough industry to get into but if you have a good foundation to work from its totally achievable. Like you mentioned in your post getting to my 'level' of composition probably wont even take you 4 years, I am not particularly good at 'scoring'....but I AM good at being me.
> 
> ...



Daniel,I can see that you are a little offended but I swear I didn't try to intentionally copy that from you lol.I did listen to your track like a week before and when I tried to do my own celtic thing,the melody came out sounding similar.You have to agree that it's fucking hard to write in a pentatonic scale without all melodies sounding the same.I could also say that you lifted the melody from Concerning Hobbits but I know you didn't because it's just hard to write in that scale without sounding similar to what others have done.I don't want you to think that I'm the type of person who likes to steal stuff from other composers.I don't even like to use a pre-baked loop because I would feel like that track wouldn't be my own.

Anyway,I apologize if I offended you but I didn't mean to.I actually really look up to you and despite what you say I think you ARE very good at 'scoring' besides being good at being you haha.


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## AC986 (Jan 6, 2014)

And you're also assuming that Daniel actually knows what a Pentatonic scale is. :mrgreen: 

I had to look it up.


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## G.E. (Jan 6, 2014)

Peter Alexander @ Mon Jan 06 said:


> Based on what you wrote, I think you can make it for these reasons:
> 
> 1. You've identified what you want.
> 2. You've identified you're not happy in what you're doing and you want a change.
> ...



Thanks for the recommendation and advice,I read that book already.My piano skills are decent so far but I definitely need to work on getting better.I'm not sure what level 2 would be but I can easily play with both hands as long as the bass part isn't too complicated.For example I can arpeggiate chords in my left hand while playing a melody with the right hand.But that's as far as my skill can take me for now.I still continue to practice though.


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## Daniel James (Jan 6, 2014)

G.E. @ Mon Jan 06 said:


> Daniel James @ Mon Jan 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Hey G.E,
> ...



Not offended at all, was just very clear that your track (even if subconciously) copied parts of my cue. And again like I say I only bring it up to draw your attention to the fact that imitation may get you some work but thats all it would ever be, because the people you copy are off trying new things. )

@adriancook: lol I know what pentatonic is....and haha I love being the "Bombastic" example 

-DJ


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 6, 2014)

We all borrow. The trick is to do it well.


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## Ryan (Jan 6, 2014)

I wise man once told me: Road to success is; don't try to sound as everyone else. 

Great success, Yasjemasj  (Borat)


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## Daniel James (Jan 6, 2014)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Jan 06 said:


> We all borrow. The trick is to do it well.



This!

Also while in your head you may feel you have taken an idea from someone else, if you are creative with it, it may sound completely new to other people. 

-DJ


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## G.E. (Jan 6, 2014)

Daniel James @ Mon Jan 06 said:


> Not offended at all, was just very clear that your track (even if subconciously) copied parts of my cue. And again like I say I only bring it up to draw your attention to the fact that imitation may get you some work but thats all it would ever be, because the people you copy are off trying new things. )
> 
> @adriancook: lol I know what pentatonic is....and haha I love being the "Bombastic" example
> 
> -DJ



I'm glad you're not offended because I really hope some day we can be friends and have a beer over a chat at Game Music Connect haha.While I definitely love learning from you,believe me,sounding like someone else is the last thing I want to do.Thanks for the advice and for making those youtube videos.Not many people are willing to do that and it's very helpful for people like me just starting out.

Cheers


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## KEnK (Jan 6, 2014)

A more realistic response

The Vow of Poverty

Think you can deal w/ it?
Try it for a month
Spend nothing no movies no restaurants
can't afford to join your friends for a beer
No fun
Eat only 6 days/week
Just rice and beans the rest of the time.

This is the reality lived by most musicians
Try it on for "size" before you let some fantasy notions lead you astray.

The music business has gone to hell over the last decade or so.
The odds are seriously stacked against you ever making even the most meager living.

These are the cold hard facts, w/o any hopeful window dressing.

You should only do this because you "must".
Not because you think it might be more fun than the crappy job you have now.
Are you obsessed w/ it?
If so, why aren't you doing it already?

You might think I'm painting a grim picture,
but it's actually a B&W photograph of the most likely scenario.

Music is not a "career",
It's a calling.

k


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## G.E. (Jan 6, 2014)

KEnK @ Mon Jan 06 said:


> A more realistic response
> 
> The Vow of Poverty
> 
> ...



I hear you.I'm not living in some fairy tale land,trust me.Hopefully I won't have to rely just on music to make a living,though I would like it to be my main occupation.

I have many skills and ideas already but I need to first secure some free time to work on music.
Here's an idea.Since I know a thing or two about software development,maybe some day I could partner up with someone and develop vsti,sample libraries hehe.That would be fun.Of course,there's no point in speculating right now.


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## AC986 (Jan 6, 2014)

Daniel James @ Mon Jan 06 said:


> @adriancook: lol I know what pentatonic is....and haha I love being the "Bombastic" example
> 
> -DJ



You're way ahead of me. I'll swim over sometime and we can discuss it. o=< :mrgreen:


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## AC986 (Jan 6, 2014)

G.E. @ Mon Jan 06 said:


> but I can easily play with both hands as long as the bass part isn't too complicated.For example I can arpeggiate chords in my left hand while playing a melody with the right hand.



So what's you're main instrument?


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## G.E. (Jan 6, 2014)

adriancook @ Mon Jan 06 said:


> G.E. @ Mon Jan 06 said:
> 
> 
> > but I can easily play with both hands as long as the bass part isn't too complicated.For example I can arpeggiate chords in my left hand while playing a melody with the right hand.
> ...




Well...piano is not only my main instrument but also my ONLY instrument.I don't really have any interest in picking up other instruments though.Piano is the most versatile instrument in the world and it's perfect for composing.


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## AC986 (Jan 6, 2014)

G.E. @ Mon Jan 06 said:


> adriancook @ Mon Jan 06 said:
> 
> 
> > G.E. @ Mon Jan 06 said:
> ...



OK. That's a good start when you're using a computer to make music with samples.

You probably need the Norwegian School of Keyboard Training. This will aid you in your quest to becoming an Oscar winning composer.

Why is playing important? Well it's not that important when using a computer. Many guys here use something like Sibelius software and everything is done with a mouse and it all sounds good.

BUT! (points index finger at the sky) If you can play well without thinking about it, it means you can improvise fast. Ideas come quickly, or should do if you can eventually do that. Although, it's not completely necessary.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 6, 2014)

Learn other instruments, it's essential for a composer, IMO.

Perhaps this thread will become a stickie.


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## G.E. (Jan 6, 2014)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Jan 06 said:


> Perhaps this thread will become a stickie.



God,I hope not haha.

I may try other instruments once I feel like I'm good enough at piano.I do have a violin collecting dust but I hear it's almost pointless to start learning that at my age since it's a very difficult instrument.


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## MacQ (Jan 6, 2014)

You might consider adapting your programming knowledge and learning KSP (Kontakt scripting). Then at least you'll be in demand to script Kontakt instruments, and you can get maybe a small bit closer to your goal.


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## Peter Alexander (Jan 6, 2014)

Look at the Berklee keyboard method. Four volumes, do-able in a calendar year.

Many major composers also learned to play violin so that their string parts were playable.


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## G.E. (Jan 6, 2014)

MacQ @ Mon Jan 06 said:


> You might consider adapting your programming knowledge and learning KSP (Kontakt scripting). Then at least you'll be in demand to script Kontakt instruments, and you can get maybe a small bit closer to your goal.



Definitely an idea worth exploring.



Peter Alexander @ Mon Jan 06 said:


> Look at the Berklee keyboard method. Four volumes, do-able in a calendar year.



Will do. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction !


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## TGV (Jan 6, 2014)

There's a lot of (conflicting) advice above, so I'm going to give you another. Get another job. Your hours are too long, and you don't like it. So change if you can. Preferably to a 3 or 4 day job. Some employers have 9 hour work days, and 27 hours isn't bad. Spend half a day resting, and the rest on music. See how far you get following courses. You're still young, so you can push it a bit. Also put effort in your social network. Not only for music, but also for the possibility to find another job in case something goes awry.


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## kmlandre (Jan 6, 2014)

G.E. @ Mon Jan 06 said:


> I may try other instruments once I feel like I'm good enough at piano.I do have a violin collecting dust but I hear it's almost pointless to start learning that at my age since it's a very difficult instrument.


I'd definitely disagree there. I spent quite a bit of time teaching adult cello students and while none of them will ever be YoYo Ma, some of them improved enough to be comfortable playing with the local community orchestra.

Also, it's not so much that you become an expert at any given instrument, but that you learn some of the limitations of the instrument so that the parts you write for them (virtual or real) are more realistic and achievable.

Kurt M. Landre'
http://www.SoundCloud.com/kmlandre


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## G.E. (Jan 6, 2014)

kmlandre @ Mon Jan 06 said:


> G.E. @ Mon Jan 06 said:
> 
> 
> > I may try other instruments once I feel like I'm good enough at piano.I do have a violin collecting dust but I hear it's almost pointless to start learning that at my age since it's a very difficult instrument.
> ...



Is cello easier than violin ? It seems like it would be.


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## Daryl (Jan 6, 2014)

G.E. @ Mon Jan 06 said:


> Is cello easier than violin ? It seems like it would be.



No, it's not easier. Just less painful on the ears, when listening to a beginner.

D


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## iaink (Jan 6, 2014)

G.E. @ Mon Jan 06 said:


> Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Jan 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Perhaps this thread will become a stickie.
> ...



Leave it to a 21 year old to think 21 is too old to try something.


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## germancomponist (Jan 6, 2014)

Daryl @ Mon Jan 06 said:


> G.E. @ Mon Jan 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Is cello easier than violin ? It seems like it would be.
> ...



For my taste it is easier, at least for me as a guitar player... .


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## kaiyoti (Jan 6, 2014)

I second what TGV said.

I too am in the software industry, and I honestly don't know why you can't look for another job that you'll love (assuming you really meant it when you said f* the money). 

Here's my advice, you're 21... you've clearly have not had enough programming jobs to hate your life. I worked at a startup company that struggled. Survived multiple rounds of layoffs. Late hours since everyone wore multiple hates. Did I love the job? I wouldn't say I hate it, but definitely not a comfortable life. Eventually the company is bought out by a major enterprise company, and all of a sudden it changed from "you should be working on X" to "what would you like to work on?" from my management. I have flexible hours, earning super competitively... 

Exactly the same as what TGV said, make connections. I've learned in the startup that it's not so much always about making yourself better, part of career is making connections. Almost everyone in the company was somehow connected to another from previous employments. 

Not saying music isn't the best choice because I'm not a fortune teller, but considering the fact that you believe you're a pretty good software programmer, I wouldn't give up that skillset just yet.


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## jaredcowing (Jan 6, 2014)

germancomponist @ Mon Jan 06 said:


> Daryl @ Mon Jan 06 said:
> 
> 
> > G.E. @ Mon Jan 06 said:
> ...



Celli don't have frets 

Regarding the topic: The world needs programmers- I fear the last thing it needs right now is another composer. In any society, you never want to be something that nobody needs. Even if you're a solid composer with talent, great theory chops and killer gear, there's no guarantee you'll make even a cent from your music. Because of how technology has made the barrier to entry much lower, the business is flooded with aspiring composers and employers know they can spend less and less on music budgets because composers will do anything for the gig, often even if it means writing for free. My advice is to keep a day job and be a composer by night, testing the waters and building your skills without the threat of going broke. Who knows, if you are very, very lucky, it'll go somewhere.
If you hate your job, find another programming job you like- trying to make music your breadwinner when you have the skills to program is just lunacy. Besides, you'll love your music more when it's a passion project rather than "work."


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## JT (Jan 6, 2014)

Keep your day job, money does matter in today's world. There's a lot of people who would love your job, just to survive and provide for their family. 

You think you don't have time to compose because you work 11-12 hour days. Put in 3 or 4 hours on music after work. I'll be good preparation for those 18 hour days you'll need to put in as a composer. 

The skills you describe for yourself put you behind. The odds are against you. But it's all up to you. If you want something and are willing to sacrifice and put in the time, then do it. But don't give up what you have now until your music skills are at a competitive level.


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## Jaap (Jan 6, 2014)

I haven't heard your music, but based on the comments here you got the skills, so that is good.

I hope you realise you are in a good position. You are a programmer, with from what I understand some nice languages in your pocket.
My advice would be try to explore programming in the audio field. There is always a great demand for audio programmers.

Maybe you can land a nice inhouse job at a gamestudio as (audio)programmer and see how the things work there, help out if needed and promote yourself and network your way up.


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## G.E. (Jan 6, 2014)

Already made my decision.Tomorrow I'm giving my 1 month's notice and quitting this job.I don't want to look back 10-20 years from now and think that I could've been living my dream and didn't take the chance.I would like to find another job that will allow me to pursue this music thing as well but that's unlikely.I have friends who have been unemployed for over a year,even 2 years and they still are.They might say on the news that things are looking up but the economy is still just as bad and there are no jobs.People still get fired.Those same friends will probably kill me when I tell them I gave up a perfectly good job to pursue foolish dreams.Am I naive and stupid for doing this ? Maybe...

I think it will work out.I will find a way to make money while still having time to make music.Anyway,thanks for all the advice ! I really appreciate it.Hope next time I write in this part of the forum asking for advice,it will be about how much should I charge for my first feature film haha.

By the way,I think I'll start looking into kontakt scripting and see what it's all about.


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## edhamilton (Jan 6, 2014)

Move to LA and get a programming gig that holds to 8 hours a day.

Spend every other hour shedding, studying, and meeting people.

There will come a point where music will naturally take over.
5 hours a day of shedding mon-fri plus 20 hours on weekends = 45 hours of music work. Surely enough to develop your skills. 

You'll wake up at age 26-28 with skills, a career without any need to starve.

just a thought.


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## mr (Jan 6, 2014)

choc0thrax @ Mon Jan 06 said:


> Since you're still quite new to composing I have to wonder if you've scored to picture before? I used to happily noodle around and make music and thought a career composing would be nice until I actually had to score to picture.
> 
> I fucking hated it.
> 
> ...



definitely many +1s

I would also suggest to try this first. Get yourself a student short to score on the weekends or after work or on vacation. But it has to be like a real world experience, one where you work with/for the director (or even more people). Don't just write music to some scene/trailer all by yourself.


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## givemenoughrope (Jan 6, 2014)

I would go with what Ed Hamilton said.

If you teach me some basic programming, I'll show you absolutely everything I know about samples, writing, clients, etc. 

If I had programming skills and lived in or near LA, Berlin, or Tokyo I'll be sending a resume to someone like Native Instruments.


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## Creston (Jan 6, 2014)

I left my okay banking job at age 21 and spent a couple of months in LA renting a house (I'm from the UK). I didn't even know I wanted to be a composer, I just wanted to make some music (ambient, but also wanted to be a rockstar).

I play guitar since age 11, I'm not a great player. I still just get by with simple piano stuff. 

I've made money doing various things over the last 9 years. I have no degree, no A levels/GSCEs. I just get by doing music now. I'm not working 80 hours a week. I had busy times and then quiet times. Thing is, I can't do much else. I've become unemployable. If I had a plan B, I don't think I'd have got as far as I have. 

I've been quite lucky as I got my first doc scoring gig by chance after sending some music to a music supervisor. I wasn't even into the idea of writing music for someone else. Thing is, before you do all this, be honest with yourself as to whether your music is good. Some people just don't have it IMO. 

If I was you with the amount of money you have, I'd do some travelling for a few months. If you get into this, there's a chance you could just miss your early 20s and regret it later on. You might explore the world enough to realise you don't want to spend your life staring at a DAW smelling of body odour thinking what the fastest meal you can make is. I was slack with my career progress in my early 20s (it's only become full time in the last 3 years) but I'm glad I had chance to get drunk, spend days on the beach, ride my bike, spend the day learning whole albums on guitar etc.


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## Jetzer (Jan 6, 2014)

G.E. @ January 6th said:


> Already made my decision.Tomorrow I'm giving my 1 month's notice and quitting this job.I don't want to look back 10-20 years from now and think that I could've been living my dream and didn't take the chance.I would like to find another job that will allow me to pursue this music thing as well but that's unlikely.I have friends who have been unemployed for over a year,even 2 years and they still are.They might say on the news that things are looking up but the economy is still just as bad and there are no jobs.People still get fired.Those same friends will probably kill me when I tell them I gave up a perfectly good job to pursue foolish dreams.Am I naive and stupid for doing this ? Maybe...
> 
> I think it will work out.I will find a way to make money while still having time to make music.Anyway,thanks for all the advice ! I really appreciate it.Hope next time I write in this part of the forum asking for advice,it will be about how much should I charge for my first feature film haha.
> 
> By the way,I think I'll start looking into kontakt scripting and see what it's all about.



People who are programmers are unemployed for years? Always thought the world was in great need of more talented programmers. But maybe thats just my naive way of thinking. 

Good luck with your decision. I am sure it will work out.

+1 on the traveling in your 20s and having fun (in general)


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## G.E. (Jan 6, 2014)

Creston @ Mon Jan 06 said:


> I left my okay banking job at age 21 and spent a couple of months in LA renting a house (I'm from the UK). I didn't even know I wanted to be a composer, I just wanted to make some music (ambient, but also wanted to be a rockstar).
> 
> I play guitar since age 11, I'm not a great player. I still just get by with simple piano stuff.
> 
> ...



I can't be honest with myself as to whether my music is good because I obviously don't think it's that good at this moment.But if I think about it,with the little time I had to practice so far I'm quite proud of where I'm at.Yeah,I'll say it...I've been around forums and seen plenty of people who have been doing it for about the same time as me and I think that I'm so much better than them.I'm sorry if I sound too cocky.If in this past year and a half I actually had the time to make music and study for more than a few days a month I think I would be twice,maybe 3 times as good right now.

And I don't really believe in talent.I think anyone can do anything they want as long as they are passionate about it and commit to mastery.


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## G.E. (Jan 6, 2014)

JH @ Tue Jan 07 said:


> G.E. @ January 6th said:
> 
> 
> > Already made my decision.Tomorrow I'm giving my 1 month's notice and quitting this job.I don't want to look back 10-20 years from now and think that I could've been living my dream and didn't take the chance.I would like to find another job that will allow me to pursue this music thing as well but that's unlikely.I have friends who have been unemployed for over a year,even 2 years and they still are.They might say on the news that things are looking up but the economy is still just as bad and there are no jobs.People still get fired.Those same friends will probably kill me when I tell them I gave up a perfectly good job to pursue foolish dreams.Am I naive and stupid for doing this ? Maybe...
> ...



Well not just programmers...But yes, some of them are.


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## Jetzer (Jan 6, 2014)

G.E. @ January 6th said:


> JH @ Tue Jan 07 said:
> 
> 
> > G.E. @ January 6th said:
> ...



I assumed you were just talking about programmers, my bad. Guess it is not easy for anyone these days, whatever field. Still think it is easier for good programmers to find some kind of employment, than an art history teacher or something. Just rambling...

Back to topic. 

I don't think it as bad as some people make it think it is. Like the world for composers is getting worse and all. It comes both ways, there are more people doing it nowadays because of cheap technology. On there other hand, technology gives us a thousand more ways to connect with people. The world and landscape will change, try to be part of it.


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## Greg (Jan 6, 2014)

Face the 'what-ifs' and just do it..


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## markwind (Jan 6, 2014)

JH @ Mon Jan 06 said:


> I don't think it as bad as some people make it think it is. Like the world for composers is getting worse and all. It comes both ways, there are more people doing it nowadays because of cheap technology. On there other hand, technology gives us a thousand more ways to connect with people. The world and landscape will change, try to be part of it.



Nice one .


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## G.E. (Jan 6, 2014)

JH @ Tue Jan 07 said:


> I don't think it as bad as some people make it think it is. Like the world for composers is getting worse and all. It comes both ways, there are more people doing it nowadays because of cheap technology. On there other hand, technology gives us a thousand more ways to connect with people. The world and landscape will change, try to be part of it.



I would like to think that with more accessible technology for composers also comes the same accessibility for film makers and such.It wouldn't make sense for me if it were otherwise.


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## jaredcowing (Jan 6, 2014)

G.E. @ Mon Jan 06 said:


> JH @ Tue Jan 07 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think it as bad as some people make it think it is. Like the world for composers is getting worse and all. It comes both ways, there are more people doing it nowadays because of cheap technology. On there other hand, technology gives us a thousand more ways to connect with people. The world and landscape will change, try to be part of it.
> ...



Yes, I'd wager there are many more filmmakers and films out there than 20-30 years ago. The scene has also become much more decentralized, so you don't need to be in LA anymore to make movies, which for most people is good news. All this change in the scene has certainly opened doors, despite all the ones that are closing. There was a report going around awhile ago that said the recent boom in casual games/apps has caused a surge in demand for composers- whether or not it's a sustainable trend, it's very welcome news. This change is also something that you probably can't fight even if you wanted to, so I agree that we have to find the opportunities where they appear.
I'd still be pragmatic- though more people are making films and games, alot of these are of the "copy & credit" no-budget variety. There's only so much content the market can take before we become oversaturated. Look at YouTube- it's exploded with creativity (and some garbage too) but very very few people can make decent money from the content they post there- the payout rates are notoriously low. This isn't to say it's impossible, but the competition is exceptionally fierce and unless there's guaranteed assurance of a minimum level of income, I'd cling to a paying day job dearly as it's the only thing that'll help you outlast all the composers who decided to go "all-in" and then go broke/burn out.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 7, 2014)

jaredcowing @ 6/1/2014 said:


> I'd cling to a paying day job dearly as it's the only thing that'll help you outlast all the composers who decided to go "all-in" and then go broke/burn out.



I can't agree less! Go all-in if you really want a career in scoring. You're young enough to absorb the blows. Go stealth, spending-wise.


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## PMortise (Jan 7, 2014)

I say ditch "plan B" and go all-in (with your eyes open, of course). Better to fail doing what you believe in than living a life of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNzBgR0UoYo (regret.)


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## jaredcowing (Jan 7, 2014)

Hmm, I very much get the "what if"/regret factor- I don't think a day job needs to get in the way of your other pursuits, so long as your day job allows you the time to pursue music as well. And if the music takes off, then you're ready to shed the day job.
Now, if there are savings to live off, or there's a minimum level of music income you can count on, or even relatives to stay with for awhile, perhaps "plan B" isn't as important. But if you have bills to pay, and nobody to move in with/cover for you if you happen to fall short, you need to be smart. If I'd moved to LA with no job, by now I'd probably be broke (and in default!) and back on the east coast licking my wounds. Fortunately, I planned and landed a day job before I moved here, so I'm still here attending the screenings/panels and networking in the evenings. Not tooting my horn, just want to stress that you need to know if "fail" means you just don't make headway on your music and go back to your former life, or if it means losing the roof over your head. But, each person's situation is different so I'll admit that some people might have the resources to give the music their full time, in which case go for it!!


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## G.E. (Jan 7, 2014)

I'm thinking of moving back in with my parents.That would save me a ton of money but at the same time it would feel like regressing, so I'm on the fence about that.I definitely need a plan B but plan A comes first.


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## givemenoughrope (Jan 7, 2014)

You want to score films or do trailers but your music isn't currently as good as other trailer music (I'm not bragging or putting you down, I couldn't currently compete with other trailer composers either) and you seem to have sorta lifted some ideas from forum member Daniel James. Whatever. (If you are going to steal, don't steal one thing, steal two completely different things and combine them…then make them your own.)

This might sound weird or presumptuous…but it seems like you are trying to distance yourself from who you are by wanting to jump from programming to composing. Don't try to be anyone else. Your programming chops and that mode of thinking/problem-solving are an ASSET to you. I wish I had them. Do you realize how valuable an employee you could be with serious composing/production (which you will no doubt get way better at exponentially in the next few years) AND computer programming!? We all make music with computers! Duh! Don't give up programming. Just do more composing! You'll be a beast if you're really good at both.


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## Arbee (Jan 7, 2014)

I'm someone who jumped from medical science into music full time at 21 (and with a wife who is still with me :o ). I then made another career switch in my mid-30s, the reverse to your situation. A career counsellor advised me that the mental processes in creating music and creating software were very similar (patterns and logic relationships plus creativity), and once I had the raw programming skills I'd be off and running. As it turned out, I duxed my programming course and started what has been a very successful and enjoyable career (now an Asia Pacific CIO). I'm now starting to head back the other way again towards music many years later. Painfully slow with the time I have available, but steady and rewarding progress nonetheless. 

My only advice, and particularly at 21, is "don't die wondering". Having said that, keep in touch with the skills you already have, you may want them again one day.

Best of luck!

.


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## G.E. (Jan 7, 2014)

givemenoughrope @ Tue Jan 07 said:


> You want to score films or do trailers but your music isn't currently as good as other trailer music (I'm not bragging or putting you down, I couldn't currently compete with other trailer composers either) and you seem to have sorta lifted some ideas from forum member Daniel James.



Hey,I completely understand and I don't think you're putting me down but maybe you missed some points I already mentioned if you didn't read all of my posts.I'm basically a beginner so naturally as of now I can't compete with other people who have been doing it for a long time(About a year and a half ago was the first time I even laid my hand on a piano).But I really believe I can be so much better if only I would have time to practice.And the whole point of me quitting my job is to have time to improve because at my current level nobody would want to pay for my music.I'm 100% aware of that.

Second thing,about lifting ideas from Daniel James...I didn't intentionally sit down and decided to copy his melody.There aren't that many possible combinations in that pentatonic scale to get the specific celtic vibe I was looking for.So that melody ended up sounding more similar than I would've wanted.If I had realized that it turned out so similar I wouldn't even have posted that piece on this forum where I know very well Daniel is an active member.But 70% of the piece is my own anyway.

Plus I can name at least 4 others with a similar melody.Listen to all of these and see that they used almost the same intervals and scale:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyN_bPRBI4c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pGaz_qN0cw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4hSkWmxHrA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8u4VLk0iTI

But I've learned my lesson.Never compose in that scale ever again !


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## Markus S (Jan 8, 2014)

Hey,

here is my take on things :

First of all (read this somewhere), rarely great adventures start with a reasonable choice. So if you feel you have to do this to complete your life go for it.

HOWEVER, I'd go there carefully. Already for the simple reason that you might hate writing music on commission as well. Until you really tried it out, you can't be sure you'll enjoy it. It's not all fun and games.

So secondly, try to use you skills as programmer to get a unique profile. Maybe look into the game market and start as a programmer, or even sound programmer and then audio director. This could be a nice door in.

Thirdly, maybe you can work half time in your job, if you earn that much, to secure your income. Careful your actual writing and mixing skills are far from the required level now. You have to work A LOT (you know this already), but of course everyone has to.

And last but not least - copyright can't be claimed for scales. 

Good luck,


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## dubdecember (Jan 16, 2014)

Haven't been here in a while but saw this and wanted to chime in.

I decided to pursue film / tv scoring when I was 21 years old. I was at a competitive top 25 US university getting straight A's in more typical subject area. I received job offers upon graduating. But I had an epiphany about wanting to put music first, so I took on an accelerated course load to graduate early and pursue it.

I am now 27 and I have written additional music for other composers on almost all the major networks. Through a music library I have recorded with an orchestra several times and licensed to trailers for every major studio, with substantial earnings on those licenses. I have built relationships with commercial music houses and scored several national spots. Last year I scored a very good feature documentary narrated and produced by a well-known actor. I have started landing some other solid credits in my own name. My schedule is currently packed with interesting work and I have some highly promising and desirable gigs in my periphery.

However, I had the financial resources and family support to take 2 - 3 years after college to move back home, barely make any money and just work on music. I grew up in LA with family in the industry, so it was somewhat easy for me to start finding connections to all sorts of people. I took classes through UCLA extension, found mentors, networked a ton, scored a lot of student films from UCLA, USC and AFI, and wrote a lot of library tracks with no upfront money. It has all paid off tremendously. I now make a very good living writing music. But it's impossible to deny what an advantage I had at the beginning.

I also had played piano and composed since I was six, much of which was under the guidance of an exceptional teacher. I learned Cubase when I was 13 and wrote electronic music through all of high school and college. So I had already a very good base for pursuing music.

If I were in your shoes I would do a little soul-searching, save a bunch of money, work on your skills and reel (even 1 - 3 hours a day), and then see if you can get: A) an assistant gig with a working composer, or B) accepted to a quality film scoring program that can land you said assistant gig (you may need to take out a loan). From there you start building experience, branching out, earning a living, etc.

If you are a programmer you should be able to find ways to shift to freelance. Living as a programmer part time with little expenses could be a good way to segue into music and ensure you are doing what you want.

If you are struggling in 3 - 6 months to transition to freelance programming work you might want to consider that composing freelance will be a million times harder. Programming is in-demand and if you are any good you should be able to find work, I would imagine.

Your pieces indicate that you have a good enough ear to find a role in this industry, so if you feel strongly enough it would definitely be worth exploring.

Hope this helps, good luck!

EDIT - In case you are wondering, it took 3 - 4 years before I started earning my full living writing music.


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## epmalm (Jan 17, 2014)

Don't get married and designate your time to what you love doing


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## G.E. (Jan 17, 2014)

epmalm @ Sat Jan 18 said:


> Don't get married and designate your time to what you love doing



Best advice ever :lol:


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## Desire Inspires (Sep 8, 2017)

Did the OP ever quit the day job and go full time into creating music? If so, how has it turned out so far?


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## Steinmetzify (Sep 8, 2017)

Desire Inspires said:


> Did the OP ever quit the day job and go full time into creating music? If so, how has it turned out so far?



Interesting read. I checked his YT page, dude hasn't posted any music since 10/2014. He's posted some video game gameplay vids the last few years and that's it. Wonder if he gave up or if he's just not using YT to showcase his work.

Twitter profile inactive as well.


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## Desire Inspires (Sep 8, 2017)

Steinmetzify said:


> Interesting read. I checked his YT page, dude hasn't posted any music since 10/2014. He's posted some video game gameplay vids the last few years and that's it. Wonder if he gave up or if he's just not using YT to showcase his work.
> 
> Twitter profile inactive as well.



I take it that he stayed at his day job. Wise move if he did.

No need to dive face first into a concrete wall. Making music is easy to some degree, but getting paid from music is hard. Many skilled and gifted people struggle to buy food and pay rent from their talents. Meanwhile, average people willing to fill out spreadsheets and enter data for 40 hours a week can make 50K a year and live a decent quality of life.

The grass isn't greener on the other side; it's artificial turf. Stay put until the money rolls in is what I say.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Sep 8, 2017)

Actually my opinion is that it is actually not that of a idea trying to start a career as a music composer when the main motivation is to make good or descent money. Music was for the majority of musicians never something where you could get rich with. Sure there are exception of a few who did make and still make some good money. But these are a few. Escpecially nowadays that the entry level to be a "composer" is pretty low makes the competition pretty high. It is then very difficult to set yourself apart. So how that can happen? I for myself said to me: I do what I love. Because only things I really love I can be good at. So sure I could decide become another HZ Clone Epic Composer, but I hate that shit with a passion. And I wouldn´t be good in that because I don´t gain any love to it. So my advice is: Try to make yourself a plan and go by your instincts and do things what you really love and try to be better than others in that field. Specialisation is the key. You will when are really good find clients who value your skills and will pay you for that. Sure..you need to do a lot of networking because nobody is coming to you on white horse and will tell you: Man..you music is soo fantastic I want you!..No..Nobody knows you in the beginning, so apart from your music the most important part is networking. I for myself love classic Soundtrack, I love concert works, and that is what I do as my composing job. But I tell you the first 2 years were pretty hard for me. I did have no references in this job, not actually one. Now I have more than 100 after 5 years in the business. And I am not getting rich from that, but I can say that I do "composing" as a living. But when I would do it just for the money, I would do some other job for sure.


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