# The end of soundtrack composers?



## cmillar (Jan 10, 2019)

Something to ponder:

*What Netflix’s ‘choose-your-own-soundtrack’ paradigm reveals about the future of the music industry*

https://www.musicbusinessworldwide....veals-about-the-future-of-the-music-industry/

hmmm.. if this is really so, then all the more need to put creative efforts into live music with live musicians, or just write songs... forget about soundtracks....who's gonna' even know what one is/was in another generation if this is prophetic and plays out in the long run?


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## TimCox (Jan 10, 2019)

I think this article is just a panic piece. In Bandersnatch you're only choosing between two instances of licensed music in a scene that would've had that in the first place. It's not truly "choose your own soundtrack" as is implied. I don't think composers have anything to worry about


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## charlieclouser (Jan 10, 2019)

I'm not buying it. I watched Bandersnatch, went through all the permutations and options, and at the end I just didn't really care about the story anymore, I just wanted my workday to be over. Because that's what it started to feel like - work. 

"Oh crap, I have to pick up the remote again and decide AGAIN. It's only been like two minutes! And I better remember which I chose so I can go back and choose the other option next time. I wonder if I should be keeping notes, or maybe create a flowchart to track which options I've chosen?"

If you asked me right now what it was about, I couldn't even tell you with any certainty. Something about a kid who was part of an experiment carried out by his dad, or a scientist pretending to be his dad, or maybe he was inside the game he was trying to create, or maybe he was a time-traveller from a future where Netflix exists and you know what I don't even care where's the remote hit cancel and pull up Narcos season two I came here to be told a story not write one and now I'm tired anyway goodnight.

A novel idea, sure. Well executed, yeah. But definitely more suited to those who live in the RPG / gamer mindset 24/7. 

The thing about RPG and things like that is that it seems like the "storyline" just isn't strong enough or interesting enough to be told in a linear fashion. Often there isn't even a storyline, just a series of scenarios that, if the player can be convinced they're now "invested in" stringing them together, just might feel worthy of the time spent.

But since the dawn of time, people want to be told a story. A complete story. Not everybody wants to write the damn thing - that's what the writers are for. Couldn't they decide on a single, compelling line with a satisfying conclusion, a message? Maybe they didn't even have one. Maybe they spent so many hours with their flowcharts figuring out how the multiple options could be joined seamlessly that they lost the plot - if there even was one.

So I think that things like Bandersnatch will suck up about as much air as "choose your own adventure books" do in the bookstore. They exist. There's a whole shelf of them, but there's not whole stores devoted only to them. They're an interesting option to try to get young kids to read, but I seriously doubt that user-controlled films will ever be more than an interesting novelty.


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## PaulBrimstone (Jan 10, 2019)

@charlieclouser Amen. Wasn't this choose-your-own-ending palaver already tried out years ago, to a chorus of yawns?


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## dgburns (Jan 10, 2019)

I see two streams going forward- the static story and the interactive storyline.

I think telling a story in a linear fashion is what we all dreamed of doing, I did anyway. And yet, there seems to be this desire on the part of the audience to be part of the narrative. 

We are entering a new era, I feel I should be open to new possibilities, even if they scare the hell out of me.


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## cmillar (Jan 10, 2019)

I like what Charlie says.

Yeah...wouldn't most people just want to 'veg-out' and relax and watch a movie or TV show after a hard day at work? Who has the energy or interest to play these kind of 'interactive' films of shows?...really?....people do/have done that?

More fun to play with a remote-control toy car than choose someone else's music and not really pay any attention to the real story line while being distracted by having to make musical choices based on someone else's ideas of what should fit (or what they're trying to sell or promote to make themselves look good!)


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## charlieclouser (Jan 10, 2019)

Yeah, I don't think audiences will ever grow bored with being told a story - I think they're growing bored with being told *uninteresting* stories. Giving them a semblance of control doesn't fix the problem, it just throws a bright shiny object up in hopes that nobody will notice the uninteresting-ness of the story at hand - like jingling keys in front of a baby.


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## givemenoughrope (Jan 10, 2019)

My Bandersnatch ended with the kid growing up to be David Cameron and stuffing that pig on tv hours after the hostage was released. I’m kidding of course. 

Yea...I liked the idea of it but thought it would have been more interesting to just have a compelling episode with a beginning, middle and end that worked...and then, go back, watch it again and start the CYOA thing by between the middle and the end. I think the whole choice of music thing was just a proof of concept idea.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Jan 10, 2019)

As I understand it, a lot of storytelling craft has to do with set ups and payoffs--things that demonstrate intention behind each element that is introduced. If the story can go in a bunch of different directions, I think I'd feel adrift.


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## Daniel James (Jan 10, 2019)

Interactive stories just turn movies into games though. Games have had adaptive music systems for years....if anything it leads to more work for composers.

They could technically create this 'have your own score' thing already, but with so many different pallettes you would have to either create or licence every possible taste. I just don't see it happening. If anything they move to adaptive musical system and then movies will just be scored more like games.

Thats how I see it at least.

-DJ


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## Akarin (Jan 11, 2019)

I can't add more to what Charlie Clouser said. But I noticed in the article that the author wrote "Eurythmics". He's probably unaware about the Brexit. It's just "Rhytmics" now. 

(I'll show myself out)


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## Mornats (Jan 11, 2019)

charlieclouser said:


> So I think that things like Bandersnatch will suck up about as much air as "choose your own adventure books" do in the bookstore. They exist. There's a whole shelf of them, but there's not whole stores devoted only to them. They're an interesting option to try to get young kids to read, but I seriously doubt that user-controlled films will ever be more than an interesting novelty.


 
Warlock of Firetop Mountain was a classic mate! 

I've not yet watched Bandersnatch but I would probably only go through one route instead of going back. I don't know yet if the fear of missing out would eat away at me or not.


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## Crowe (Jan 11, 2019)

Daniel James said:


> Interactive stories just turn movies into games though. Games have had adaptive music systems for years....if anything it leads to more work for composers.
> 
> They could technically create this 'have your own score' thing already, but with so many different pallettes you would have to either create or licence every possible taste. I just don't see it happening. If anything they move to adaptive musical system and then movies will just be scored more like games.
> 
> ...



It works the other way as well. Detroit: Become Human was, ignoring its desperate attempts to be profound, more of a movie than a game. A movie that was constantly interrupted 'choose your own adventure'-style.

The idea that a movie would be interrupted by the inane decision of what music I want to have carry it would annoy me to no end.


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## Saxer (Jan 11, 2019)

Cool... now you get work for multiple composers per movie for the audience to choose from.
Next step would be a wish list for the main actors per movie. I want Eddie Murphy as James Bond.


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## MartinH. (Jan 11, 2019)

Telltale games just went bankrupt with multiple choice style games last year, I don't think they are betting on the right horse here.


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## pmcrockett (Jan 11, 2019)

IMO, even video games haven't yet gotten interactive storytelling completely right. It's a bit early to be hoping that film and TV will do it well.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jan 11, 2019)

I think that anything "interactive" sucks. Storytelling should be left to the author, without interruptions and gimmicky nonsense. This is true for books as well as films.

Video games that try to be cinematic and tell too much story suck as well. The best thing about video games is actual play. Games that are all about that are the best ones.

Any medium should play to its strenghts. It's the only thing that makes sense.


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## Crowe (Jan 11, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I think that anything "interactive" sucks. Storytelling should be left to the author, without interruptions and gimmicky nonsense. This is true for books as well as films.
> 
> Video games that try to be cinematic and tell too much story suck as well. The best thing about video games is actual play. Games that are all about that are the best ones.
> 
> Any medium should play to its strengths. It's the only thing that makes sense.



Honestly, I could not disagree more with this statement. My favorite genre of games are jRPGs and the deeper the story and character-development, the better. If you think that 'the best games' are only about gameplay you obviously haven't played Persona 5.

The idea that story-telling would not be one of the strengths of the format of Video Games is inherently faulty. It's like saying that Documentaries suck because films should exclusively deal with telling stories.

Personally, I don't like games that don't have a story or plot. Different strokes for different folks and all that.


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## Crowe (Jan 11, 2019)

MartinH. said:


> Telltale games just went bankrupt with multiple choice style games last year, I don't think they are betting on the right horse here.



Telltale's problem wasn't that their type of games are inherently bad. Their first few games we're quite critically praised. Telltale just figured that if they kept repeating the same formula over and over and over again people wouldn't wise up.

If you keep making the movies with the exact same plot and story-progression, even fans are going to get bored.


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## MartinH. (Jan 11, 2019)

Shiirai said:


> Telltale's problem wasn't that their type of games are inherently bad. Their first few games we're quite critically praised. Telltale just figured that if they kept repeating the same formula over and over and over again people wouldn't wise up.
> 
> If you keep making the movies with the exact same plot and story-progression, even fans are going to get bored.



I only played a bit of The Walking Dead episode 1 and Game of Thrones episode 1, and to me those feel kind of like a multiple choice test - a weird mix of tedious, stressful and boring. I always felt I'm missing out on half the content. I much prefer a linear story like in The Last Of Us. 



Shiirai said:


> Different strokes for different folks and all that.


True.


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## Crowe (Jan 11, 2019)

MartinH. said:


> I only played a bit of The Walking Dead episode 1 and Game of Thrones episode 1, and to me those feel kind of like a multiple choice test - a weird mix of tedious, stressful and boring. I always felt I'm missing out on half the content. I much prefer a linear story like in The Last Of Us.



The Last of Us is amazing and a definitive argument for plot-driven narratives in video games if ever there was one.

Also dat soundtrack <3


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jan 11, 2019)

Shiirai said:


> Honestly, I could not disagree more with this statement. My favorite genre of games are jRPGs and the deeper the story and character-development, the better. If you think that 'the best games' are only about gameplay you obviously haven't played Persona 5.
> 
> The idea that story-telling would not be one of the strengths of the format of Video Games is inherently faulty. It's like saying that Documentaries suck because films should exclusively deal with telling stories.



No. It's of course normal that people enjoy different things, and JRPGS are obviously popular, but I feel that your premise is actually inherently faulty. You're not enjoying the "game", but the narrative. Which is OK. People also love "visual novels". But just like storytelling in RPGs, that content can hardly be categorized as "game". It's a passive component in an active medium. 

Many RPGs are captivating as a narration, but fairly shallow as games (there are exceptions of course). Which circles back to my assessment that games that excel at pure _play_ are the ones that most effectively harness the best potential of the medium.


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## Crowe (Jan 11, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> No. It's of course normal that people enjoy different things, and JRPGS are obviously popular, but I feel that your premise is actually inherently faulty. You're not enjoying the "game", but the narrative. Which is OK. People also love "visual novels". But just like storytelling in RPGs, that content can hardly be categorized as "game". It's a passive component in an active medium.
> 
> Many RPGs are captivating as a narration, but fairly shallow as games (there are exceptions of course). Which circles back to my assessment that games that excel at pure _play_ are the ones that most effectively harness the best potential of the medium.



And yet again I have to disagree, because I cannot stand visual novels or games without gameplay. It needs both. My mentioned Persona 5 would've never worked without it's combination of amazing mechanics, wonderful music and gripping story. This is actually the strength of video games.

I actually do 'enjoy the game', as you say. Grandia isn't my favorite game ever because of it's (granted cliche) narrative, but the combination of Characters, Story, Exploration, Battle mechanics and its awesome Soundtrack.

I do not disagree most rpg's are fairly shallow, which is probably why, even as my favorite genre, I don't actually *like* many of them. But those I *do* like, have got it all. Not just one or the other. I firmly believe that games that only excel at pure play are *not* making effective use of the medium, at all.


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## Soundhound (Jan 11, 2019)

Choosing sets would also be tons of fun. Imagine Game of Thrones in Hackensack, New Jersey for example. The Sopranos going about their business in a colony on Mars. The Kilgour Trout-like possibilities are endless.

Maybe cgi in dead actors too? Lawrence Olivier in Bridesmaids? The future looks bright indeed.





Saxer said:


> Cool... now you get work for multiple composers per movie for the audience to choose from.
> Next step would be a wish list for the main actors per movie. I want Eddie Murphy as James Bond.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jan 11, 2019)

Shiirai said:


> I firmly believe that games that only excel at pure play are *not* making effective use of the medium, at all.



But that was never what I said. I said that the games that excel at pure play are the best examples of the medium. But I didn't say that in a very good game cannot or must not have other qualities like narrative, presentation, music etc. Obviously the perfect package will always be the best.

But games start and end with play. If the core gameplay, which is always a cognitive and/or sensomotoric experience/challenge, isn't up to snuff, it's not a good game.

Great game design with great story, presentation etc. = great game.
Great game design with no story etc. = still a good, possibly still brilliant game.
A game with a captivating story, but dreadful core gameplay (or none to speak of) = not a good game.


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## Fab (Jan 11, 2019)

Read the article, It sounds like a weak argument.

However this thread has some great contrasting opinions!


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## dgburns (Jan 11, 2019)

Can’t help but comment on the fact that many screenplays, and the resulting stories I am lucky enough to have worked on, pretty much all come from the same mold.

The three act, start from the point of no return to a climax, when all the world is at stake, and conclude in the end like nothing happened (lol). 

There must be more to life then a greek tragedy retold add nauseum. (and a really destructive car chase)

Well, ok there is the thriller, that conservative construct where the ‘bad guy’ is ostracized from society so we can better define our borders of what’s safe and what’s not acceptable by pointing the finger at the ‘freak’. Ie every cop show like ‘Criminal minds’.

At least the hero’s quest plots are straight up, maybe that’s why I like LOTR so much. 

I get the whole concept that we go from a state of ignorance to knowing, that’s the whole point of ‘falling in’ on a story, especially the hero’s quest, but I would love to see something new.


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## Chr!s (Jan 11, 2019)

I'd heard people talking about this, but never knew what it was or what apparently made it special.

I don't regret canceling my Netflix subscription yet.


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## gsilbers (Jan 14, 2019)

Maybe I read it too fast or my reading comprehension is off... but this article and ideallogy of choose your own sound track seems to be based on those radio hit songs that are placed on movies... like giving an option to choose 70s music or 80s music in what the dude from guardians of the galaxy2 listens when he puts on his head phones. But the score will remain the same from Tyler bates.

That idea seems fine if they implement correctly. Have a way for listeners to explore more sound tracks. Seems gimmicky to say the least, imo. It cool if it works. Maybe like video games style of entertainment. 


I do see a more important issue w Netflix. Their strong will against paying good royalties and trying to do buy out of score to not pay royalties on their shows. That to me is way more important since streaming has taken over broadcast in all ways and forms... it somehow BMI and ascap haven’t realized it.


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## ryst (Jan 15, 2019)

All I see this as is another attempt to keep people interested and engaged. Because it seems like movie makers are running out of original ideas, and we're still in the wild west as technology keeps progressing and changing how we watch movies and listen to music. So it's a time to "throw it on the wall and see what sticks". 

Also, the article doesn't mention anything about "the end of soundtrack composers", only the OP does in his/her title, which is quite misleading.


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## cmillar (Jan 17, 2019)

Misle


ryst said:


> Also, the article doesn't mention anything about "the end of soundtrack composers", only the OP does in his/her title, which is quite misleading.



Sure...that's why I started the thread...to get some thinking going....misleading?...then it served it's purpose for sake of discussion.

(...not like I'm a politician or anything!)


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## Tice (Jan 17, 2019)

I think that if you gave people enough power to alter the music in their game, then at the same time you give them the ability to destroy the experience. I reckon something similar to cheat codes/god mode can happen: players can enjoy god mode for a short while, but at the same time they reduce the long-term enjoyment of the game. Having ultimate freedom in choosing your own soundtrack will mean that players may see it as fun to have death metal play during a romantic kiss scene, but that enjoyment is short-lived and will ruin long-term enjoyment. On top of that, choosing your own experience means you get the experience YOU can come up with. The experience someone else can come up with is more surprising.


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## Cinebient (Jan 18, 2019)

Mmmhhh....maybe it even could be the opposite. Give the user some choices....but then you can compose 3 or more soundtracks for a movie/game. So more work for soundtrack composers


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## ryst (Jan 18, 2019)

cmillar said:


> Misle
> 
> 
> Sure...that's why I started the thread...to get some thinking going....misleading?...then it served it's purpose for sake of discussion.
> ...



You don't have to be a politician to create misleading, click-bait titles to your posts.


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