# MSS: LEGATO ONLY Discussion/Contributions



## Batrawi (Feb 20, 2021)

Yes, _another_ thread...! Sorry? Not sorry!

Legato (at least to me) is the "Spinal Cord" of any musical structure. To many of us, it is a very important factor (if not the most important one) when trying to decide whether we need to buy a new string library or not.

Due to how MSS seems to be loaded with a lot of other cool features, I found it very difficult to maintain a focused/constructive/informative discussion about legatos without being quickly drowned by other discussions in the other MSS thread... hence, I felt this subject deserved a dedicated separate thread.

And just for sake of clarity, when evaluating legato, it's simply about evaluating normal legato playing simple exposed melodic mono lines... As simple as that (not portamento, not glissando, not chords with poly legato or auto divisi on etc..)

That said, those who already own MSS, please try to contribute with any clear musical legato lines and your thoughts about it. But before that, please be fair to the library and to yourself... give yourself enough time until you're comfortable with all available legato tweaks and settings that gets you close to what you believe is sufficiently musical to your taste

If unsure or have any concerns, remember you can reach out directly to @dxmachina (email/pm) for any tips as he kindly suggested/encouraged

also, I have made some suggestions here that might be a good starting point anyway:

1-Load only 1 divisi section (say for ex. Violins 1A)
2-turn off Auto-Divisi
3-turn off all onboard Fx/ERs/IRs/Reverb or what so ever...
4-turn off the "Auto" button above "LegSpeed-Mode"
5-dial the "LegSpeed-Mode" knob all the way down
6-dial the "Trans Spd" knob all the way down
7-(optional/warning: only for freaks who can get their hands dirty any time!) in addition to all of the above click on the patch wrench icon to go under the hood and apply the "Pixelpoet trick" posted *here*
...this might look like a duplication of some of the steps you already applied on the GUI above, but trust me, sometimes it might give you an extra degree of control, so it's worth the try

In the meantime, we (potential buyers) will jump in based on what we will hear or have already heard so far from the available legato examples

Ok, lets get this discussion going...


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## novaburst (Feb 20, 2021)

This is just a setting that owners need to do and can experiment with bow on or off, it is vitle to use custom to get what ever legato results you need if i have time will post sound examples


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## Batrawi (Feb 20, 2021)

ok, so what are your thoughts (you listeners) so far? for me I still could not hear any audible legato transition, but that's also because what I've seen so far is that users keep the legato parameters in their default settings which I understand are optimised for divisi/poly legato playing as opposed to lyrical lines. Also lots of reverbs/effects are left on which gives an overall blurry sound.


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## Evans (Feb 20, 2021)

I went ahead and picked up library. I tried the PixelPoet trick. I don't see "sample start" as an option. I'm moderately familiar with working behind the wrench, but maybe someone else can try to see if I'm missing something.


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## Batrawi (Feb 20, 2021)

Evans said:


> I went ahead and picked up library. I tried the PixelPoet trick. I don't see "sample start" as an option. I'm moderately familiar with working behind the wrench, but maybe someone else can try to see if I'm missing something.


So you did need to go behind the wrench to apply the trick? was that because the transition parameters on the GUI did not have a noticeable impact in the first place or what?


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## Evans (Feb 20, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> So you did need to go behind the wrench to apply the trick? was that because the transition parameters on the GUI did not have a noticeable impact in the first place or what?


I only took a few minutes with it for the Expanded set, as I'm needing to download the main library and Batch Resave everything. But my impression is that the knob settings add incremental nuance and corrections, as desired.

They don't, however, drastically change the playing style.

As I stated in the other thread a few minutes ago, this is like BBCSO, Afflatus, Synchron Strings Pro, Dimension Strings, or Berlin Strings legato. This isn't CSS/Vista/Nashville.

EDIT: And my apologies if I don't return to this thread for additional commentary or examples this weekend. It's family time, and I've signed up my kid for some Evenant courses that she wants to watch together. I'll be multi-tasking here on my phone, at best.


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## muziksculp (Feb 20, 2021)

@Batrawi,

Good move to open this new focused topic on MSS Legato. 

Looking forward to hear some wonderful Lyrical, emotional phrases played legato style with MSS. 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## Batrawi (Feb 20, 2021)

Evans said:


> This isn't CSS


By the way, it turned out not to be too much to ask for if MSS can be like CSS. cause LASS (which is what? 10 years old now?) turned out that it can be as expressive as CSS with the PixelPoet trick... So I can't imagine that AudioBro could have taken a less inferior approach in sample editing/scripting that could potentially make MSS less expressive that what LASS can be already.


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## Casiquire (Feb 20, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> By the way, it turned out not to be too much to ask for if MSS can be like CSS. cause LASS (which is what? 10 years old now?) turned out that it can be as expressive as CSS with the PixelPoet trick... So I can't imagine that AudioBro could have taken a less inferior approach in sample editing/scripting that could potentially make MSS less expressive that what LASS can be already.


That's just the thing though, LASS *is* their ultra expressive library. This is not. No need to make the same library twice. This is their modern, clean, precise, pop/rock/hybrid/experimental sounding library. It's intended to be different.

I'm not sure that the Pixelpoet trick would be effective here because according to the devs, the Legato Speed knob does push the transition back already, and as i play it, I can feel the legato delay and it does sound a bit slower. I think that's all that the trick would do as well. 

I'd love a discussion about the legatos and user tips and tricks. I think ultimately, if you don't like what you're hearing, it might not be the tool for you, and that's ok!


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## muziksculp (Feb 20, 2021)

I think I'm just going to wait for *LASS 3*.

*Sonokinetic Strings* will be out in April, which also offers divisi. I'm very interested, and optimistic about this release.


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## Batrawi (Feb 20, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> LASS *is* their ultra expressive library.


But that's what we've just recently discovered, with the PixelPoet trick🙂 otherwise, LASS standard legato was just as direct as MSS legato, which explains your point here:


Casiquire said:


> according to the devs, the Legato Speed knob does push the transition back already, and as i play it, I can feel the legato delay and it does sound a bit slower



My guts tells me though, that their GUI trans speed knob could be limited to certain threshold so that the legato, even with maximum delay, would still be playable as per AB's preference/standards (like LASS standard legato)... However if the full legato transitions have been preserved (like it is the case with LASS) then we can still access them via the PixelPoey trick... this is just my hope


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## muziksculp (Feb 20, 2021)

@Batrawi,

For beautiful sounding Lyrical, and expressive legato strings I would recommend Strezov Sampling's *Afflatus*.

I don't know if you have this library, but if you don't , you might want to check it out.

Here is a real time playing using Afflatus video showing the lyrical side of these strings. Just load and play, beautiful legato transitions, and very lyrical.



Another demo track played in real time using Afflatus.


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## Casiquire (Feb 20, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> But that's what we've just recently discovered, with the PixelPoet trick🙂 otherwise, LASS standard legato was just as direct as MSS legato, which explains your point here:
> 
> 
> My guts tells me though, that their GUI trans speed knob could be limited to certain threshold so that the legato, even with maximum delay, would still be playable as per AB's preference/standards (like LASS standard legato)... However if the full legato transitions have been preserved (like it is the case with LASS) then we can still access them via the PixelPoey trick... this is just my hope


LASS has been praised for its legato long before that trick became known. The default still sounds great to this day, better than most other libraries I use


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## BasariStudios (Feb 20, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> LASS has been praised for its legato long before that trick became known. The default still sounds great to this day, better than most other libraries I use


Does that mean i should just go and buy LASS instead of MSS?
Anyways there will be LASS3 at some time in the future.


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## Evans (Feb 20, 2021)

My personal opinion is that you, specifically, should not buy any more strings at this time. See what else comes out this year and hit some year-end sales.


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## Casiquire (Feb 20, 2021)

BasariStudios said:


> Does that mean i should just go and buy LASS instead of MSS?
> Anyways there will be LASS3 at some time in the future.


I'm definitely the wrong person to be giving library advice haha I'd just tell you to buy everything under the sun! But i think this is a useful thread to see and hear what sounds can come from MSS. It's very flexible and i think it might have some tricks left to discover. I just don't think that particular trick is the one that can change the sound so much. But I'm definitely keeping an eye on this thread


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## Vladimir Bulaev (Feb 20, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> LASS has been praised for its legato long before that trick became known. The default still sounds great to this day, better than most other libraries I use


As they say, everything is known in comparison. This trick does wonders with LASS. From an ugly catfish turns into a beautiful swan. But personally, I have already been corrupted by CSSSSS and for this reason the unconvincing legato of the other libraries does not satisfy me.


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## Batrawi (Feb 20, 2021)

Evans said:


> I went ahead and picked up library. I tried the PixelPoet trick. I don't see "sample start" as an option. I'm moderately familiar with working behind the wrench, but maybe someone else can try to see if I'm missing something.


Enjoy your time with family Evans, and get back whenever you feel relaxed or have the time to contribute. On your point regarding not finding the "sample start" thing, I think might not be shown by default in some instruments, so check this when you have the time


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## Evans (Feb 20, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> Enjoy your time with family Evans, and get back whenever you feel relaxed or have the time to contribute. On your point regarding not finding the "sample start" thing, I think might not be shown by default in some instruments, so check this when you have the time


To clarify, I had no issue locating "constant," per the instructions. But "sample start" was not an option in the far-right dropdown once "constant" was selected. I tried several variations of Groups (noticing which ones were activated while playing), across two instruments, just to make sure.


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## Batrawi (Feb 20, 2021)

Evans said:


> But "sample start" was not an option in the far-right dropdown once "constant" was selected.


well that's strange bummer 😕


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## muziksculp (Feb 20, 2021)

I'm a bit surprised that you expect a Kontakt trick is needed to improve MSS legatos, given AudioBro has provided the user a selection of legato control parameters to tweak it to taste. 

Personally, I think this library is not going to satisfy a lot of legato experts, and fans. It just doesn't seem to deliver what you want to hear, so just look for another library that does. Just my 3-Cents.


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## Evans (Feb 20, 2021)

I had a few minutes and did the trick again.

I'm a goof and looked in the wrong place the first time in my haste (same screen, different MOD section about 20 px below). My sincere apologies. I blame it on not having looked here in a while, even though it used to be my jam some versions ago.

To be honest, I'm not highly invested in testing it out with a lot of different knob settings, since it's not going to be my go-to for lyrical playing, anyway.

*Maybe someone else will be interested in moving further, since I can at least confirm that it's feasible.* There could be some good fun in testing out sample start changes with a whole variety of knob changes. 

That's the part I don't care much to get into.


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## Batrawi (Feb 20, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I'm a bit surprised that you expect a Kontakt trick is needed to improve MSS legatos, given AudioBro has provided the user a selection of legato control parameters to tweak it to taste.


I explained several times why that might still work beyond the GUI parameters.. last time just a page ago:


Batrawi said:


> My guts tells me though, that their GUI trans speed knob could be limited to certain threshold so that the legato, even with maximum delay, would still be playable as per AB's preference/standards (like LASS standard legato)... However if the full legato transitions have been preserved (like it is the case with LASS) then we can still access them via the PixelPoey trick.



in all cases, lets wait and see if users can post any (ANY) good melodic examples with MSS, be it with the GUI parameters, be it with the trick, be it with the intuition patches... I don't care


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## muziksculp (Feb 20, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> lets wait and see if users can post any (ANY) good melodic examples with MSS, be it with the GUI parameters, be it with the trick, be it with the intuition patches


So far non of the lyrical, melodic legato MSS demos have impressed me, both sonically, and in terms of legato, and expressive qualities, compared to what a library such as Afflatus offers, and that's without any fussing around with the GUI/Controls/Settings. 

It's a Day and Night difference.


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## BasariStudios (Feb 20, 2021)

UGH! I feel like splurging almost 800 bucks and just try it and
make the demos my self...i know i can do it and get into its
details but at 800 bucks...i don't know.


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## Pablocrespo (Feb 20, 2021)

I am not listening anything I like, don’t know if new users are making a disservice to the library or if this is the best possible results. 

And I want to like it so much, but hear legato transitions overlapping with the following sustains, and other problems


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## Batrawi (Feb 20, 2021)

BasariStudios said:


> UGH! I feel like splurging almost 800 bucks and just try it and
> make the demos my self...i know i can do it and get into its
> details but at 800 bucks...i don't know.


I feel exactly the same way but with $400 instead which is still a high risk to take if I eventually get stuck with what I hear. There are good things to like about the library and I like the sound though..


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## BasariStudios (Feb 20, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> I feel exactly the same way but with $400 instead which is still a high risk to take if I eventually get stuck with what I hear. There are good things to like about the library and I like the sound though..


Same here too...don't know what to do.


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## Noeticus (Feb 20, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> Yes, _another_ thread...! Sorry? Not sorry!
> 
> Legato (at least to me) is the "Spinal Cord" of any musical structure. To many of us, it is a very important factor (if not the most important one) when trying to decide whether we need to buy a new string library or not.
> 
> ...


I hope that Audiobro creates a single button I can press that will do all this.


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## Batrawi (Feb 20, 2021)

BasariStudios said:


> Same here too...don't know what to do.


the sanest thing to do is wait and hear what others can contribute with until the intro price ends. If nothing impressed us until then, I think our decision not to buy would even be easier when the price goes higher and especially that other interesting libraries are anticipated in that period


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## novaburst (Feb 20, 2021)

Evans said:


> To clarify, I had no issue locating "constant," per the instructions. But "sample start" was not an option in the far-right dropdown once "constant" was selected. I tried several variations of Groups (noticing which ones were activated while playing), across two instruments, just to make sure.


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## Evans (Feb 20, 2021)

See update in subsequent post


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## BasariStudios (Feb 20, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> the sanest thing to do is wait and hear what others can contribute with until the intro price ends. If nothing impressed us until then, I think our decision not to buy would even be easier when the price goes higher and especially that other interesting libraries are anticipated in that period


What's your wife saying? Is she buying it?


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## Batrawi (Feb 20, 2021)

BasariStudios said:


> What's your wife saying? Is she buying it?


with that legato, I'm afraid to ask her


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## AEF (Feb 20, 2021)

Could someone direct me to the “PixelPoet trick?”


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## Batrawi (Feb 20, 2021)

AEF said:


> Could someone direct me to the “PixelPoet trick?”


it's linked in the first post


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## Pixelpoet1985 (Feb 20, 2021)

Evans said:


> To clarify, I had no issue locating "constant," per the instructions. But "sample start" was not an option in the far-right dropdown once "constant" was selected. I tried several variations of Groups (noticing which ones were activated while playing), across two instruments, just to make sure.


I'm not a Kontakt pro, but if I remember correctly, "sample start" is only available if you choose "sampler" mode instead of "DFD".


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## Evans (Feb 20, 2021)

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> I'm not a Kontakt pro, but if I remember correctly, "sample start" is only available if you choose "sampler" mode instead of "DFD".


I was wrong in a different part of it. Read further in the thread and you'll see my update.


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## Soundbed (Feb 20, 2021)

I'm not sure how to do step 1.

"1-in Group Editor select the groups and ONLY those groups that contain legato transitions (make sure to deselect everything else)"

How do I know what to select?

Here's the 1,184 groups in MSS Cellos:


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## Evans (Feb 20, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> I'm not sure how to do step 1.
> 
> "1-in Group Editor select the groups and ONLY those groups that contain legato transitions (make sure to deselect everything else)"
> 
> ...


Set some midi notes to cycle in your DAW. The activated ones will have the text turn orange-ish.


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## Soundbed (Feb 20, 2021)

Evans said:


> Set some midi notes to cycle in your DAW. The activated ones will have the text turn orange-ish.


Yep so am I expected to do that for every note transition I want to test though?


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## Pixelpoet1985 (Feb 20, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> I'm not sure how to do step 1.
> 
> "1-in Group Editor select the groups and ONLY those groups that contain legato transitions (make sure to deselect everything else)"
> 
> ...


I do it on the left side where your libraries are. Somewhere at the top there is a button that switches the view to "expert" or something like this. It's more clear and organised then.

In LASS the groups are named with numbers for each 12 intervals up or down (NormU1, NormD1, etc. while "norm" stands for legato, the others stand for port or gliss)


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## Evans (Feb 20, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Yep so am I expected to do that for every note transition I want to test though?


I think the way the grouping works is that you're going to just worry about one per mic/mix position.


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## Evans (Feb 20, 2021)

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> I do it on the left side where your libraries are. Somewhere at the top there is a button that switches the view to "expert" or something like this. It's more clear and organised then.
> 
> In LASS the groups are named with numbers for each 12 intervals up or down. (NormU1, NormD1, etc.)


Yes, definitely easier to browse if you use Expert mode, above the Libraries button. Instead of turning color, I think the active groups have a speaker icon next to them.


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## Pixelpoet1985 (Feb 20, 2021)

Evans said:


> I think the way the grouping works is that you're going to just worry about one per mic/mix position.


Good hint, too! In LASS we only had one mix.


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## Soundbed (Feb 20, 2021)

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> I do it on the left side where your libraries are. Somewhere at the top there is a button that switches the view to "expert" or something like this. It's more clear and organised then.
> 
> In LASS the groups are named with numbers for each 12 intervals up or down (NormU1, NormD1, etc. while "norm" stands for legato, the others stand for port or gliss)


That may be the single most important thing I've learned today! I see a group named, aptly, Legato. I think all the other group are attacks and other pieces.

Slowly reloading 42,000 samples...


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## Soundbed (Feb 20, 2021)

Okay so here's how it sounds -- except there was way too much loud legato overlap with Trans Vol at "noon" so in these recordings I have it at -6dB. I'd actually like the ability to lower it even more. I'll rely on the rest of you to analyze how it sounds. This is the mix mic. Cellos B (I like them more, and they sound more like LASS to my ear.)



For comparison / contrast, here's Cellos A which I did NOT apply the Pixelpoet trick to ... same MIDI. The color of the A Cellos is already quite different from the B Cellos. I (personally) still wanted to turn down the Trans Vol about -0.7dB. One thing I did that is not in the steps is lower the overall Trans-Spd all the way down for both examples as well. I assumed you meant to indicate that, rather than keeping it at noon.


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## AEF (Feb 20, 2021)

Here's my attempt at espressivo with MSS on V1. Can't figure out articulation sets in logic with it yet, so it's pretty static.


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## molemac (Feb 20, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Okay so here's how it sounds -- except there was way too much loud legato overlap with Trans Vol at "noon" so in these recordings I have it at -6dB. I'd actually like the ability to lower it even more. I'll rely on the rest of you to analyze how it sounds. This is the mix mic. Cellos B (I like them more, and they sound more like LASS to my ear.)



Not convinced this sounds very real


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## Soundbed (Feb 20, 2021)

molemac said:


> Not convinced this sounds very real


Thanks for listening. The legato transitions sound very "generic" and "unobtrusive" to me (unless I turn them up).

@molemac Do you -- or do others here -- think MSS might serve media composers who are looking to make ... effectively, "background music" for tv, film and games?

I keep thinking about the word "Scoring" in the product title.... Like ... underscore.


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## Evans (Feb 20, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> I keep thinking about the word "Scoring" in the product title.... Like ... underscore.


Yes. I can let someone else be the melodic/lyrical "legato" library for when the Disney princess sings her "I want" song.


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## molemac (Feb 20, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Thanks for listening. The legato transitions sound very "generic" and "unobtrusive" to me (unless I turn them up).
> 
> @molemac Do you -- or do others here -- think MSS might serve media composers who are looking to make ... effectively, "background music" for tv, film and games?
> 
> I keep thinking about the word "Scoring" in the product title.... Like ... underscore.


I think you might be right if their demos are anything to go by and the attempts at exposed lyrical (melodic legato )examples here so far.


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## Casiquire (Feb 20, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Thanks for listening. The legato transitions sound very "generic" and "unobtrusive" to me (unless I turn them up).
> 
> @molemac Do you -- or do others here -- think MSS might serve media composers who are looking to make ... effectively, "background music" for tv, film and games?
> 
> I keep thinking about the word "Scoring" in the product title.... Like ... underscore.


I think it's exactly right for pop, rock, hybrid, and experimental music


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## borisb2 (Feb 20, 2021)

Evans said:


> As I stated in the other thread a few minutes ago, this is like BBCSO, Afflatus, Synchron Strings Pro, Dimension Strings, or Berlin Strings legato. This isn't CSS/Vista/Nashville.


Owning MSS I would say this sums it up perfectly. MSS legato is surely good enough for any type of ensemble playing (like in all demos etc). Together with the powerful First chairs you can go even further - but it wont replace the other pool like CSS, Vista, ConMoto or NSS - thats just too much to ask from one library.

I optimized now to a lighter template where I have MSS, BS and CSS sitting alongside.. what a powerful combo 👍👍


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## muziksculp (Feb 20, 2021)

borisb2 said:


> Owning MSS I would say this sums it up perfectly. MSS legato is surely good enough for any type of ensemble playing (like in all demos etc). Together with the powerful First chairs you can go even further - but it wont replace the other pool like CSS, Vista, ConMoto or NSS - thats just too much to ask from one library.
> 
> I optimized now to a lighter template where I have MSS, BS and CSS sitting alongside.. what a powerful combo 👍👍


Sorry, but I wouldn't group Afflatus with the other libraries listed here. It's in a very different class, especially when it comes to Lyrical, and Polyphonic Legato.


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## Tom Ferguson (Feb 20, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> @Batrawi,
> 
> For beautiful sounding Lyrical, and expressive legato strings I would recommend Strezov Sampling's *Afflatus*.
> 
> ...



Oooh, love the first demo. Super Joe Hisaishi/Spirited Away (especially 'A Road to Somewhere'). Nice!


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## BasariStudios (Feb 20, 2021)

So what is the consensus here? We buying or not?
I am waiting on Batrawi.


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## Duncan Krummel (Feb 20, 2021)

Since it's relevant to this thread as well, I'll copy my post over here. MSS' legato, by default, isn't as smooth as I'd like it, and it isn't as pronounced as I'd like it. Until/unless there are ways of pushing this further than the front-facing controls allow, or AudioBro updates this, the legato isn't usable in more neo-romantic settings. However, it is _fantastic_ at supplementing CSS:



> HA! I just knew it; MSS is certainly not going to replace CSS as my main workhorse strings library, _however_, it is most certainly going to augment it. Here are some demos of MSS, CSS/S, and then layered. One of CSS/S' biggest points of controversy - other than varying delay offsets - is its dark tone. I love the tone of CSS, but I'll also fully admit that it isn't appropriate for every piece. EQ can help, but it's not the same as a brighter source material. MSS is perfect for brightening, thickening, and turning CSS into a symphonic string section.
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/nmj21ifuo9ajgo0/AAA5xXGTojL_aFkmpoTtu9iaa?dl=0
> Note: CSS/S examples are the mix mic, whereas CSS/S + MSS examples are only close and main. MSS tracks are NOT default patches, and for the combined examples they are -5.6db.
> ...


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## muziksculp (Feb 20, 2021)

I'm hoping that AudioBro will add the legato edit trick/functionality that was mentioned here by using the Kontakt editor, to *LASS 3*, via a knob on the GUI, to be able to join an early legato transition to the sustain note, and obtain a longer legato transition, that sounds more lyrical, and expressive.


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## biomuse (Feb 20, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Okay so here's how it sounds -- except there was way too much loud legato overlap with Trans Vol at "noon" so in these recordings I have it at -6dB. I'd actually like the ability to lower it even more. I'll rely on the rest of you to analyze how it sounds. This is the mix mic. Cellos B (I like them more, and they sound more like LASS to my ear.)
> 
> 
> 
> For comparison / contrast, here's Cellos A which I did NOT apply the Pixelpoet trick to ... same MIDI. The color of the A Cellos is already quite different from the B Cellos. I (personally) still wanted to turn down the Trans Vol about -0.7dB. One thing I did that is not in the steps is lower the overall Trans-Spd all the way down for both examples as well. I assumed you meant to indicate that, rather than keeping it at noon.



B sounds better to me.


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## Casiquire (Feb 20, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Sorry, but I wouldn't group Afflatus with the other libraries listed here. It's in a very different class, especially when it comes to Lyrical, and Polyphonic Legato.


Have to be honest, i haven't heard anything from Afflatus that struck me as game-changing


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## Duncan Krummel (Feb 20, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I'm hoping that AudioBro will add the legato edit trick/functionality that was mentioned here by using the Kontakt editor, to *LASS 3*, via a knob on the GUI, to be able to join an early legato transition to the sustain note, and obtain a longer legato transition, that sounds more lyrical, and expressive.


If this works to improve the legato transitions - and I'll be honest, I'm not sure it applies to MSS in the same way - I'd really hope AudioBro would implement it in the GUI like you've said. I don't own full Kontakt, and dislike it enough that I will probably never buy it, so this would be the only way to make it accessible to myself and others with Kontakt Player.


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## Batrawi (Feb 20, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Okay so here's how it sounds -- except there was way too much loud legato overlap with Trans Vol at "noon" so in these recordings I have it at -6dB. I'd actually like the ability to lower it even more. I'll rely on the rest of you to analyze how it sounds. This is the mix mic. Cellos B (I like them more, and they sound more like LASS to my ear.)
> 
> 
> 
> For comparison / contrast, here's Cellos A which I did NOT apply the Pixelpoet trick to ... same MIDI. The color of the A Cellos is already quite different from the B Cellos. I (personally) still wanted to turn down the Trans Vol about -0.7dB. One thing I did that is not in the steps is lower the overall Trans-Spd all the way down for both examples as well. I assumed you meant to indicate that, rather than keeping it at noon.



Many thanks @Soundbed for taking the time & effort tweaking and putting those videos together. Really appreciated.

For the first video where you used the PixelPoet trick, I could barely hear any transitions though because I see you've decided to reduce the trans volume quite a bit (-6dB is a LOT I think!). My analysis why you felt the need to reduce it that much is:
1-Your fingers are tricking your ears(?): so if the trick actually worked here, and the transition became "slower" under your fingers your brain may have deceptively translated that as "louder" to you. (that happens to me when I overtweak things so don't be surprised🙂) and...
2-You left the sustain attack slider on "Cres": I don't know if that is relevant, but Cres sustain naturally starts with a low dynamic/volume after the legato transition. So maybe keep the sustain attack at "normal" instead which probably would be more naturally balanced with the legato transition volume (at noon, not -6dB)


----------



## muziksculp (Feb 20, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Have to be honest, i haven't heard anything from Afflatus that struck me as game-changing


Hi @Casiquire,

I never said Afflatus is a game-changer. 

I said it's in another class, meaning it offers a different type of strings functionality when compared to the other libraries it was grouped with. It has a very wonderful timbre, and expressiveness that imho. non of the other libraries offer, it features come at a steep price, I initially thought it was a hyped library, and once I began discovering the library, I realized that I was wrong, and it is really a very special library.

Just like many here feel CSS is the Legato Champion of Strings, (I personally am not a big fan of CSS sound/timbre), for my taste Afflatus is a top of the line Strings library when it comes to expressive, lyrical string lines, and offers a nice variety that CSS, and the other mentioned libraries don't.

LASS 2.5 is another very popular library, which I'm not a big fan of, but I'm hoping that once it is dressed up as LASS 3, I will enjoy using it, and maybe it will become one of my favorite libraries. We shall see.

Oh.. I should also add, that what I will consider a Game-Changer Strings library, is when a Physically Modelled Strings Library, for both Solo and Ensemble Strings can sound as close as possible to real strings, especially in timbre, they are already super flexible, and agile as far as playability goes, and without a gazillion key-switches, it's only a matter of time, and we will see a real game changer, I'm very confident.


----------



## rampant (Feb 20, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @Casiquire,
> 
> I never said Afflatus is a game-changer.
> 
> ...


No offense, but why are you still posting in here and the other Modern Scoring Strings thread? You yourself asked not to bring other libraries into the discussion and stating, "If you prefer the sound of [one library] to MSS, then there is no point in buying MSS". Yet here we are, with you drawing comparisons to Afflatus.

You have had very little in the way of actual, helpful contribution to the conversation in either this or the main topic. All you have done is consistently remind us how you are flip-flopping on the library, hearing "awesome sounding legato quality" last Tuesday. You felt less encouraged to buy it on Thursday, and then you wanted to "stay far away from MSS". Then you jumped to "having more faith in [the] library" and potentially buying it one day in the future -- not because of the sound, or tone, but because one of the developers replied to the thread...? It's unlikely they'd be able to change that much in the library without re-recording a ton of legato transitions.

Then you told us you were going to "just wait for LASS 3" as "non (_sic_) of the lyrical, melodic MSS demos have impressed me... in terms of legato, and expressive qualities" yesterday (despite the apparently awesome sounding legatos a few days prior?), all of which culminated in your final opinion that you have "decided to pass on MSS, and its Legato Expansion".

So, if you're done, would you perhaps consider not spamming the MSS threads with unnecessary posts that don't help anyone find useful information that may contribute to their decision whether or not to purchase the library?


----------



## Pixelpoet1985 (Feb 20, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> legato edit trick/functionality


Pardon? ... Pixelpoet Trick! Let‘s stay with it!


----------



## Pixelpoet1985 (Feb 20, 2021)

I repeat my request from the other thread: 

Besides Duncan, could anyone post more demos/videos of the legatos with more close and stage mics involved (without reverb)? I always hear the mix.


----------



## Duncan Krummel (Feb 20, 2021)

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> I repeat my request from the other thread:
> 
> Besides Duncan, could anyone post more demos/videos of the legatos with more close and stage mics involved (without reverb)? I always hear the mix.


Not sure if I _had_ clarified this, but all of my demos have used the close and stage mics, no mix. Separately, that’s a different story.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985 (Feb 20, 2021)

Duncan Krummel said:


> Not sure if I _had_ clarified this, but all of my demos have used the close and stage mics, no mix. Separately, that’s a different story.


Yes, you had, that‘s why I said "besides". Maybe it wasn‘t clear.

I don‘t want to hear them separately, although this would be welcome. I‘m happy with just the stage (=tree?) + close combination.


----------



## Russell Anderson (Feb 21, 2021)

rampant said:


> No offense, but why are you still posting in here and the other Modern Scoring Strings thread? You yourself asked not to bring other libraries into the discussion and stating, "If you prefer the sound of [one library] to MSS, then there is no point in buying MSS". Yet here we are, with you drawing comparisons to Afflatus.
> 
> You have had very little in the way of actual, helpful contribution to the conversation in either this or the main topic. All you have done is consistently remind us how you are flip-flopping on the library, hearing "awesome sounding legato quality" last Tuesday. You felt less encouraged to buy it on Thursday, and then you wanted to "stay far away from MSS". Then you jumped to "having more faith in [the] library" and potentially buying it one day in the future -- not because of the sound, or tone, but because one of the developers replied to the thread...? It's unlikely they'd be able to change that much in the library without re-recording a ton of legato transitions.
> 
> ...


Something’s been cooking for awhile, in this kitchen


----------



## Pixelpoet1985 (Feb 21, 2021)




----------



## Batrawi (Feb 21, 2021)

AEF said:


> Here's my attempt at espressivo with MSS on V1. Can't figure out articulation sets in logic with it yet, so it's pretty static.


thanks @AEF . Those lines are played with the default settings, correct? or have you applied any certain tweaks?
Again the library's tone sounds wonderful to my ears, but there is hardly any noticeable connection between the notes which deprives them from realism/musicality.


----------



## Batrawi (Feb 21, 2021)

For users who've reached their limits tweaking the transitions with no good luck so far, here is also another useful déjavu for you:

In this old video @3:06, Cory is suggesting a trick to workaround the dead legato transitions in AB's NI SySS. I don't think the trick is superior to the Pixelpoet trick which wasn't known back then, but at least it can work similarly on MSS front end GUI for those who can't go under the hood to apply the Pixelpoet trick (@Duncan Krummel ). The trick doesn't solve all problems but at least it makes the legatos sound more expressive in some situations (jump to 10:26 to hear the results)


----------



## dxmachina (Feb 21, 2021)

Probably worth mentioning at this point that there _will_ be an update (prior to us ending any intro period pricing). It may be significant for those following this thread. I wouldn't get too in the weeds under-the-hood (unless you enjoy it).


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## Zedcars (Feb 21, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> For users who've reached their limits tweaking the transitions with no good luck so far, here is also another useful déjavu for you:
> 
> In this old video @3:06, Cory is suggesting a trick to workaround the dead legato transitions in AB's NI SySS. I don't think the trick is superior to the Pixelpoet trick which wasn't known back then, but at least it can work similarly on MSS front end GUI for those who can't go under the hood to apply the Pixelpoet trick (@Duncan Krummel ). The trick doesn't solve all problems but at least it makes the legatos sound more expressive in some situations (jump to 10:26 to hear the results)



Hmm, interesting. A few tips there to try. However the stereo trick he employs makes it sound like the musicians are all in Covid 19 seating positions! Ie much too far apart. The wideness of the basses being the most unnatural.


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## Soundbed (Feb 21, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> Many thanks @Soundbed for taking the time & effort tweaking and putting those videos together. Really appreciated.
> 
> For the first video where you used the PixelPoet trick, I could barely hear any transitions though because I see you've decided to reduce the trans volume quite a bit (-6dB is a LOT I think!). My analysis why you felt the need to reduce it that much is:
> 1-Your fingers are tricking your ears(?): so if the trick actually worked here, and the transition became "slower" under your fingers your brain may have deceptively translated that as "louder" to you. (that happens to me when I overtweak things so don't be surprised🙂) and...
> 2-You left the sustain attack slider on "Cres": I don't know if that is relevant, but Cres sustain naturally starts with a low dynamic/volume after the legato transition. So maybe keep the sustain attack at "normal" instead which probably would be more naturally balanced with the legato transition volume (at noon, not -6dB)


I figured you’d ask for this. I’ll show you what it sounds like. I don’t think cresc affects anything other than the first note but I’ll try again later today. Are the phrases played okay though? I mean, are you going to be able to hear wha you want with these notes and mod wheel?


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## Evans (Feb 21, 2021)

I applaud Audiobro for the long intro period pricing and update statement. It's more than what I think most developers offer.


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## Soundbed (Feb 21, 2021)

dxmachina said:


> Probably worth mentioning at this point that there _will_ be an update (prior to us ending any intro period pricing). It may be significant for those following this thread. I wouldn't get too in the weeds under-the-hood (unless you enjoy it).


I don’t, I really don’t. I have other things to do. But I’m game, for now, because I am learning a little bit.


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## FireGS (Feb 21, 2021)

Russell Anderson said:


> Something’s been cooking for awhile, in this kitchen


Pot boiled over! They're not *wrong*, though.


----------



## soulofsound (Feb 21, 2021)

Russell Anderson said:


> Something’s been cooking for awhile, in this kitchen


Big fan here of (sic).


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## Batrawi (Feb 21, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> I figured you’d ask for this. I’ll show you what it sounds like.


Ok that sounds threatening 😶 if it's gonna sound that bad then don't bother posting it🤣



Soundbed said:


> I don’t think cresc affects anything other than the first note


That's a bit confusing, cause in the legato videos/walthrough, I remember seeing this slider jumping like crazy(between Cres/Normal/hard attacks) _when overlaping the notes_!!! besides, I recall this was also mentioned in AB's guides that the variable note attacks are used to give interesting variations in legato transitions...!




Soundbed said:


> Are the phrases played okay though?


I think they are perfect for what I need!

Thanks a million again @Soundbed 

Just to be sure though I wanted to check with you that in step 1 in the pixelpoet trick, you selected *the legato transitions only *correct? you will find those blinking in orange colour *momentarily* when you overlap the notes. I'm asking this because you will also be seeing the sustains samples continuously showing in orange as well but you should NOT select those


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## Casiquire (Feb 21, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> Ok that sounds threatening 😶 if it's gonna sound that bad then don't bother posting it🤣
> 
> 
> That's a bit confusing, cause in the legato videos/walthrough, I remember seeing this slider jumping like crazy(between Cres/Normal/hard attacks) _when overlaping the notes_!!! besides, I recall this was also mentioned in AB's guides that the variable note attacks are used to give interesting variations in legato transitions...!
> ...


I do believe the slider jumps around to indicate your velocity, but it does not affect the attack you hear when playing legato. Which makes sense when you think about it--if the idea was to hear a different attack while playing legato, that would affect the transition. So they would need to record even more legato transitions


----------



## Duncan Krummel (Feb 21, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> For users who've reached their limits tweaking the transitions with no good luck so far, here is also another useful déjavu for you:
> 
> In this old video @3:06, Cory is suggesting a trick to workaround the dead legato transitions in AB's NI SySS. I don't think the trick is superior to the Pixelpoet trick which wasn't known back then, but at least it can work similarly on MSS front end GUI for those who can't go under the hood to apply the Pixelpoet trick (@Duncan Krummel ). The trick doesn't solve all problems but at least it makes the legatos sound more expressive in some situations (jump to 10:26 to hear the results)



Batrawi, here's the first demo with variations in the attack type, and then 3 different versions of transition speeds; there's the default setup with auto mode enabled on legato and the transition speed at 12 o'clock, there's a Slowest Leg version with the transition slider pulled all the way down and the auto mode disabled and pulled all the way down, and then there's a Fastest Port version with the transition and Port sliders set all the way up.

For fun, there's a Drunken Gliss version with the norm attack type and the gliss slider pulled all the way up.









MSS Demo #1 Part 2


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com





Edit: Forgot to mention, this is only divisi section A, with just the mix mic active (I _do _like the mix mic, but haven't shown it any love so far).


----------



## muziksculp (Feb 21, 2021)

rampant said:


> No offense, but why are you still posting in here and the other Modern Scoring Strings thread? You yourself asked not to bring other libraries into the discussion and stating, "If you prefer the sound of [one library] to MSS, then there is no point in buying MSS". Yet here we are, with you drawing comparisons to Afflatus.


Hi @rampant,

My post was a reply to another post mentioning other string libraries in the MSS post. I should have not bothered replying, so yes, sometimes I get carried away replying to forum posts.

Anyways ..I'm done with my MSS posts, no more interest in this library. 

I already decided I'm not buying it or its legato expansion, I will just wait for LASS 3 . 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Batrawi (Feb 21, 2021)

Duncan Krummel said:


> Batrawi, here's the first demo with variations in the attack type, and then 3 different versions of transition speeds; there's the default setup with auto mode enabled on legato and the transition speed at 12 o'clock, there's a Slowest Leg version with the transition slider pulled all the way down and the auto mode disabled and pulled all the way down, and then there's a Fastest Port version with the transition and Port sliders set all the way up.
> 
> For fun, there's a Drunken Gliss version with the norm attack type and the gliss slider pulled all the way up.
> 
> ...


These are excellent demonstrations of the different settings @Duncan Krummel -Thanks!

I liked the 'slowest leg' versions best. Yet, as you said, the legatos here are still far from being close to something like CSS in terms of realism & smooth morphing into the following sustain note. I'd wish they were still slower/more pronounced... or simply put, just capturing the actual legato interval *as recorded *... hopefully that's something AB is considering to unlock in the upcoming update.

By the way, the gliss versions were fun and actually (unexpetedly) interesting! They seem very useful in yielding Mancini-like results when used with care


----------



## soulofsound (Feb 21, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @rampant,
> 
> My post was a reply to another post mentioning other string libraries in the MSS post. I should have not bothered replying, so yes, sometimes I get carried away replying to forum posts.
> 
> ...


His criticism is undeserved, i think. If you can say whatever you like, including changing your mind or contradicting yourself, then it's proof we're not living in a totalitarian state. Which is ultimately what you want.


----------



## Batrawi (Feb 21, 2021)

Duncan Krummel said:


> Since it's relevant to this thread as well, I'll copy my post over here. MSS' legato, by default, isn't as smooth as I'd like it, and it isn't as pronounced as I'd like it. Until/unless there are ways of pushing this further than the front-facing controls allow, or AudioBro updates this, the legato isn't usable in more neo-romantic settings. However, it is _fantastic_ at supplementing CSS:


@Duncan Krummel question about the ostinati part at the end of your demo#2.. have you played any of those manually with CSS/S' regular legato patches? or were those all with MSS' pre-recorded ostinati?


----------



## Duncan Krummel (Feb 21, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> @Duncan Krummel question about the ostinati part at the end of your demo#2.. have you played any of those manually with CSS/S' regular legato patches? or were those all with MSS' pre-recorded ostinati?


Where CSS and/or CSSS was used, they’re played as well with the fastest legato speed. They work really well at this tempo, but you can also start to hear the repetition of samples if you listen closely.


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## Soundbed (Feb 21, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> Ok that sounds threatening 😶 if it's gonna sound that bad then don't bother posting it🤣
> 
> 
> That's a bit confusing, cause in the legato videos/walthrough, I remember seeing this slider jumping like crazy(between Cres/Normal/hard attacks) _when overlaping the notes_!!! besides, I recall this was also mentioned in AB's guides that the variable note attacks are used to give interesting variations in legato transitions...!
> ...


Not threatening haha -- or should I say mwahaha -- but yesterday it sounded way too loud to my ears ... today they sounded a little too loud, so I was settling for turning them down around -2.4dB or so.

But I recorded a new video at 0dB (yay).

And with the close mics this time (double yay).

~

(As @Casiquire mentioned) The cresc or accent or norm gets applied to the beginning ("attack") part of the phrase only, as I understand, then transitions to the sustain, then all the legatos, then the RT / release tail if enabled.

So the anatomy, I think, should be: 

[Cresc | Norm | Accent] + [Sustain] + [Legato] + [Sustain] + [Legato etc.] ... + [Release Tail] 

... where the + represents a crossfade (? or some phase aligned edit?). This is also what the manual indicates: the Cresc and Accent and Norm beginning do not alter the legato transitions (I posted the manual snipped in the other thread).

When the legatos are many and fast I don't know what the [Sustain] parts might be doing or not doing though -- they might not have time to begin.

~

Yes I selected the legato transitions only. I go through it again in the latest video, where I'm actually speaking as well (yay? jk).

~

The video is It's edited to bring others into the conversation in case anyone was interested (God help them, lol).

I tried a few combinations, hope I got what you @Batrawi and @Pixelpoet1985 wanted to see and hear executed, plus I did some other random demos and explanations of related / adjacent / complimentary features along the way.

I'll make a new post with the video when it's ready ... here's the chapter markers so far ... 0:00 VC B Mix Mic + Pixelpoet (panned) mf 0:28 Intro & Setup 1:29 The Pixelpoet trick (description) 3:23 Legato transitions +6dB 4:50 Transition controls 7:42 Legato Transitions 0dB to -1dB 8:12 Dynamic layers (mod wheel) 9:30 Will velocity affect legato transition volume? 10:56 Legato Transitions -2dB 11:41 Legato Transitions -3dB to -2.3 and mod wheel 14:17 Cellos A (no Pixelpoet trick applied) & pan center 15:44 Cellos B (center) Legato Transitions 0dB 16:23 Legato transitions -2.4dB 16:55 THE PIXELPOET TRICK (close mics)


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## Batrawi (Feb 21, 2021)

Duncan Krummel said:


> Where CSS and/or CSSS was used, they’re played as well with the fastest legato speed. They work really well at this tempo, but you can also start to hear the repetition of samples if you listen closely.


I thought they were too good to be true! and no, in context, it's extremely difficult to hear any repetitions especially when manipulating dynamics & tempo as you did. That's another testimony to CSS and that when legato transitions are captured right and kept within the legato script/performance they can work wonders..


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## Batrawi (Feb 21, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Not threatening haha -- or should I say mwahaha -- but yesterday it sounded way too loud to my ears ... today they sounded a little too loud, so I was settling for turning them down around -2.4dB or so.
> 
> But I recorded a new video at 0dB (yay).
> 
> ...


That's some excellent content I can't wait to see... much much appreciated


----------



## Soundbed (Feb 21, 2021)

Here are some tests using the @Pixelpoet1985 trick on the close mic using the same MIDI "approved" by @Batrawi plus a whole bunch of other ramblings, explorations and explanations.

My question for YOU is: what do you think of the legato transition sounds themselves?

I played them too loud (+6dB at 3:23 and 26:07) to feature them, and with LegSpeed at noon and at the shortest / fastest as described in the steps (not at the longest / slowest like @Duncan Krummel posted above). So you should be able to hear them ... what do y'all think of them?

0:00 VC B Mix Mic + Pixelpoet (panned) mf
0:28 Intro & Setup
1:29 The Pixelpoet trick (description)
3:23 Legato transitions +6dB 
4:50 Transition controls
7:42 Legato Transitions 0dB to -1dB
8:12 Dynamic layers (mod wheel)
9:30 Will velocity affect legato transition volume?
10:56 Legato Transitions -2dB
11:41 Legato Transitions -3dB to -2.3 and mod wheel
14:17 Cellos A (no Pixelpoet trick applied) & pan center
15:44 Cellos B (center) Legato Transitions 0dB 
16:23 Legato transitions -2.4dB (*still mix mic)
16:55 THE PIXELPOET TRICK (close mics) pt. 1
18:25 LASS Legato 19:38 EWHO Celli Leg Slur Ni
21:10 CSS Legato 22:10 THE PIXELPOET TRICK pt. 2
24:15 MSS EQ and Insert Controls
26:07 Pre-Tests +6dB (too loud)
28:03 Recorded attacks, Release Tails & Custom Envelopes
31:24 The experiment using cresc notes starts
34:40 Legato transitions -2.4dB (*close mic)
36:10 Leg-Speed Controls at noon
39:45 THE EXPERIMENT
40:55 Legato transitions -1.2dB + Fabfilter Dyn EQ
43:08 Scales, Runs, Trills, Ostinatos, Shorts
48:10 Dynamic Layers, Port, Gliss & Outro



One thing I noticed as the video was uploading: I've still got the CC+Vel dynamics selected. I'd made a mental note to change that to CC only, but did not do it. I didn't hear it affecting the legato transition volumes (9:30) but I wonder about the extent to which it was impacting the sustained and note attack portions.

Time for lunch. Happy Sunday.


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## Batrawi (Feb 21, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Here are some tests using the @Pixelpoet1985 trick on the close mic using the same MIDI "approved" by @Batrawi plus a whole bunch of other ramblings, explorations and explanations.
> 
> My question for YOU is: what do you think of the legato transition sounds themselves?
> 
> ...



Ok... I'm gonna need to make some pop-corn first.. and probably I'll fall asleep before I can even finish this behemoth deep dive video, but will definetly come back with my thoughts as soon as I'm able to digest all this. Can't thank you enough @Soundbed ...take a good rest, this community needs you👍


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## Pixelpoet1985 (Feb 21, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Here are some tests using the @Pixelpoet1985 trick on the close mic using the same MIDI "approved" by @Batrawi plus a whole bunch of other ramblings, explorations and explanations.
> 
> My question for YOU is: what do you think of the legato transition sounds themselves?
> 
> ...



Thanks for your effort! I need coffee now. 

I have a question on the legato speed. As you had the "auto" mode on, the faster you were playing the lower the knob was. So it's actually the opposite of what some of us were thinking.

Wouldn't this mean that you have to pull the knob all the way up to get a slower legato? For the trick it's correct, but maybe the sample start can't be pushed forward in the wave editor (you can select it at the top of the instrument next to group/mapping editor). There you can see if it's possible.

If it's possible, than the "trick" should sound exactly like if you would pull the knob all the way up. Sorry @Batrawi, actually, I suggest to stop fidgeting with the "trick". That's the job of the knob.


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## Soundbed (Feb 21, 2021)

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Thanks for your effort! I need coffee now.
> 
> I have a question on the legato speed. As you had the "auto" mode on, the faster you were playing the lower the knob was. So it's actually the opposite of what some of us were thinking.
> 
> ...


So you didn’t want the legatos faster? 😳 I was wondering why @Batrawi liked the slowest legatos from @Duncan Krummel. And I couldn’t figure out why the steps said to turn the knob “down” to the left.


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## lettucehat (Feb 21, 2021)

Not to derail, but is there any way to hear the Pixelpoet trick in LASS where it originally started? I assume the LASS in that most recent video is just default LASS but maybe I'm wrong.


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## Pixelpoet1985 (Feb 21, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> So you didn’t want the legatos faster? 😳 I was wondering why @Batrawi liked the slowest legatos from @Duncan Krummel. And I couldn’t figure out why the steps said to turn the knob “down” to the left.



Did I say this? I can't remember. 🙈 🙊 Actually, @Batrawi insisted on the trick to be tested with the library. Your effort was not in vain.

But my guessing with the knob was right? I think @Duncan Krummel also pushed the knob down; but this doesn't result in a slower legato, does it?


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## ned3000 (Feb 21, 2021)

Here's a quick mockup of Jurassic Park w/ MSS. Could be improved with more tweaking but I think it gives a decent idea of the sound for that kind of thing. The mix is close mics only with some solo viola mixed with the section and a moderate amount of external reverb.

Maybe it's just me but I've tried to do that passage before with other libraries and it's actually pretty hard to get the articulations to sound natural with the repeated notes. I think MSS handles it the best of the ones I tried (including CSS, EWHS, and a couple of others.)


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Feb 21, 2021)

ned3000 said:


> Here's a quick mockup of Jurassic Park w/ MSS. Could be improved with more tweaking but I think it gives a decent idea of the sound for that kind of thing. The mix is close mics only with some solo viola mixed with the section and a moderate amount of external reverb.
> 
> Maybe it's just me but I've tried to do that passage before with other libraries and it's actually pretty hard to get the articulations to sound natural with the repeated notes. I think MSS handles it the best of the ones I tried (including CSS, EWHS, and a couple of others.)



I noticed this with my SSP vs MSS comparison too, but MSS sounds muffled for some reason, even with close mics. There's no separation or clarity to the strings. Could be the mix though.

Here's a CSS / CS2 version I found of the same passage from Anne-Katherin Dern as a comparison:


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## molemac (Feb 21, 2021)

ned3000 said:


> Here's a quick mockup of Jurassic Park w/ MSS. Could be improved with more tweaking but I think it gives a decent idea of the sound for that kind of thing. The mix is close mics only with some solo viola mixed with the section and a moderate amount of external reverb.
> 
> Maybe it's just me but I've tried to do that passage before with other libraries and it's actually pretty hard to get the articulations to sound natural with the repeated notes. I think MSS handles it the best of the ones I tried (including CSS, EWHS, and a couple of others.)



I keep really wanting this to sound good but that doesn’t sound like strings


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## Trevor Meier (Feb 21, 2021)

dxmachina said:


> Probably worth mentioning at this point that there _will_ be an update (prior to us ending any intro period pricing). It may be significant for those following this thread. I wouldn't get too in the weeds under-the-hood (unless you enjoy it).


This is good to hear. I love the tone of the library, and the ostinatos are killer. But nothing I’m hearing in the bread-and-butter playing is making me want to take the plunge. The legatos and releases just don’t sound musical to my ears, and not being able to connect ostinatos into regular legato playing wastes one of the great potentials of the library.

That said - I’m excited to hear what updates you can bring. I’d love to jump on this before the intro is over!


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## molemac (Feb 21, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Here are some tests using the @Pixelpoet1985 trick on the close mic using the same MIDI "approved" by @Batrawi plus a whole bunch of other ramblings, explorations and explanations.
> 
> My question for YOU is: what do you think of the legato transition sounds themselves?
> 
> ...



Great experimentation. The changes are all quite subtle but dont ever hit a sweet spot for all, so a lot of cc riding and user fiddling is needed I guess . Maybe on the updates the Auto feature will remove all the customisation needs. For me it confirms Lass cellos are better sounding and have better legato than MSS (even CSS?) which is a bit of a let down for MSS. Although I thought the portamento examples at 51 were pretty good and could be useful for variation. Can you change the portamento vol ?

BTW was the Lass example at 1825 using pixel trick ?


----------



## Duncan Krummel (Feb 21, 2021)

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> But my guessing with the knob was right? I think @Duncan Krummel also pushed the knob down; but this doesn't result in a slower legato, does it?


I just confirmed that my settings were correct. Dragging the dial UP results in faster transitions, dragging it DOWN results in slower transitions. This is confirmed on the transitions dial with the help text:

"Transition Speed: Controls the transition speed relative to the values used for each transition type in the full transition speed editor. Lower values will create more pronounced transitions but will perform slower. Higher values will yield fast-playing and smooth sounding transitions, but may lose realism."

I confirmed the Leg Speed dial by ear.


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## Soundbed (Feb 21, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> MSS sounds muffled for some reason, even with close mics. There's no separation or clarity to the strings


Yeah. I haven’t found ways to EQ life into the basic tone yet. 😋 I will probably use them to “add body” in hybrid orchestral pieces. I often (always?) layer strings, personally. But I also add synths.  I’ll use the FC / soloists and other libraries (like Tundra) for detail. 


molemac said:


> Great experimentation. The changes are all quite subtle but dont ever hit a sweet spot for all, so a lot of cc riding and user fiddling is needed I guess . Maybe on the updates the Auto feature will remove all the customisation needs. For me it confirms Lass cellos are better sounding and have better legato than MSS (even CSS?) which is a bit of a let down for MSS. Although I thought the portamento examples at 51 were pretty good and could be useful for variation. Can you change the portamento vol ?
> 
> BTW was the Lass example at 1825 using pixel trick ?


Thanks. I assume the port vol will change too, all automatable of course. 

No I’ve got no incentive yet to try the trick on LASS personally. ... Haven’t heard any examples before and after though.


Duncan Krummel said:


> I just confirmed that my settings were correct. Dragging the dial UP results in faster transitions, dragging it DOWN results in slower transitions. This is confirmed on the transitions dial with the help text:
> 
> "Transition Speed: Controls the transition speed relative to the values used for each transition type in the full transition speed editor. Lower values will create more pronounced transitions but will perform slower. Higher values will yield fast-playing and smooth sounding transitions, but may lose realism."
> 
> I confirmed the Leg Speed dial by ear.


I wonder why Auto turns the speed counterclockwise when playing faster passages. For more “blur”?


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## Batrawi (Feb 21, 2021)

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> If it's possible, than the "trick" should sound exactly like if you would pull the knob all the way up. Sorry @Batrawi, actually, I suggest to stop fidgeting with the "trick". That's the job of the knob.



I have to disagree...

1-It's the job of the GUI knob *only to a certain limit. *Listen to Duncan's demos (labelled "slowest legato") where you can hear the transitions but still barely audible and lacking realism, hence..

2-the purpose of experimenting with the PixelPoet Trick *in search of that missing extra portion of the transition. *Now listen to @Soundbed video (and by the way he got everything set up right )where you will find the trick introducing that extra portion of the transition.. hence the loudness that Soundbed had to tame with the transition Volume knob...


*So, did the trick work?*
_Yes it did_. _At least we now know that the real/full transitions seem to be preserved in the samples -- so I assume it should not be an issue of re-recording or re-cutting original recordings_

*But did it work as expected (as it worked with LASS for example)?*
_I don't think so. Now that the trick introduced that extra portion of the transition, the whole/full transition became longer that it seems to be clashing with the following sustained note which now relatively starts earlier than it should -- So the new anatomy (as I hear it) became like this: 
[Cresc | Norm | Accent] + [Sustain] + [Legat*@%#$*ustain] + ... + [Release Tail]

I assume this only should be a matter of re-scripting, re-timing and re-balancing the samples against each other._

*what do I think about the sound of the legato transition itself now that we were able to better hear it after applying the trick?*
_Honestly I still can't judge. I still can't hear it in its optimized state based on the above. However, it obviously sounds loud as warned by Soundbed, and I do hear like an attack on the bow as opposed to fingered legato (any expert string player can please chime in as I'm not totally sure)... it's hard to describe, but to put it easy, it sounded like an ensemble of Tina Guo Cellos playing together if that makes sense... (and btw Tina Guo Cello is a bow change legato if I'm not mistaken)_

*My personal thoughts after @Soundbed 's video?*
_-This library looks serious *DEEP* and has some really nice & warm recordings and preserved samples that I think can still be optimized/improved... I mean com'on we amateurs/non-experts in Kontakt were able to effortlessly improve LASS legato with a simple trick already* -- So should it be the case with MSS, but with the support of the developers who are hopefully listening..
-Another (irrelevant) thought is, @Soundbed is funny as hell (I laughed a lot in this video ) and a really good presenter who seems to have other valuable contents on his channel which I'll have to explore later-- So you got a new follower/subscriber 

*for those who are still wondering how the trick works effortlessly with LASS (@lettucehat I saw you were asking), here is an example I posted previously alternating between default legato(first) vs PixelPoet Legato(second).. 
as you'll hear, with that trick activated (which is basically capturing the whole legato performance as originally recorded) LASS can compete with TOP legato libraries till today! and I hope that this would also be the case with MSS..._
View attachment LASS Legato - Normal vs Edited.mp3


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## Pixelpoet1985 (Feb 21, 2021)

molemac said:


> I keep really wanting this to sound good but that doesn’t sound like strings


It really seems we all prefer different things, for me it sounds like strings again.

Maybe the recording technique. They use a close (stereo) microphone different to other libraries, maybe it‘s the sound aesthetic which isn‘t familiar? Reminds me of VSL. Don‘t know. It‘s a close studio (pop) sound.


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## Batrawi (Feb 21, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I noticed this with my SSP vs MSS comparison too, but MSS sounds muffled for some reason, even with close mics. There's no separation or clarity to the strings. Could be the mix though.
> 
> Here's a CSS / CS2 version I found of the same passage from Anne-Katherin Dern as a comparison:





molemac said:


> I keep really wanting this to sound good but that doesn’t sound like strings



I agree with @molemac. Again (as I said it like 100 times now) the realism is completely destroyed due to how the notes connect. But aside from that @ned3000 , haven't you used the same-note-rebow in this jurassic park piece? I thought it was a good opportunity to show how the library handles that especially tha it has true same-note-rebowing if I remember correctly...

Another question to everyone, am I the only one hearing the legato is very direct or as if it's a bow-change legato?


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## molemac (Feb 21, 2021)

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> It really seems we all prefer different things, for me it sounds like strings again.
> 
> Maybe the recording technique. They use a close (stereo) microphone different to other libraries, maybe it‘s the sound aesthetic which isn‘t familiar? Reminds me of VSL. Don‘t know. It‘s a close studio (pop) sound.


The sound aesthetic is familiar having been lucky enough to do a lot of recording chamber sized and orchestral strings in various London studios. In an ideal world you book Abbey rd , Air and Angel studios before it closed and Mark Knopfflers British Grove which is a relatively small room In comparison. Whilst I like the close sound and you would often hear the engineer work on close mikes whilst he is setting the sound up for recording, the room sound is important and this sounds to me like close with an external reverb which doesn’t allow the strings to sing. Often in smaller rooms strings can sound a little boxy which is why everyone wants a studio like AR So you dont need to add too much externalverb. 
I am sorry I cant speak from personal experience not having bought the library yet which I probably will for all the great things it can do, but from what I have read here, it seems people are not liking the room sound of MSS so disabling the mix and only adding a little stage and or external verbs. I think your average non Vi control listener/punter without knowing why, ( particularly which has better legato transitions) would pick the CSS over the MSS version of this if asked which one sounded more like real strings.


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## Pixelpoet1985 (Feb 22, 2021)

molemac said:


> The sound aesthetic is familiar having been lucky enough to do a lot of recording chamber sized and orchestral strings in various London studios. In an ideal world you book Abbey rd , Air and Angel studios before it closed and Mark Knopfflers British Grove which is a relatively small room In comparison. Whilst I like the close sound and you would often hear the engineer work on close mikes whilst he is setting the sound up for recording, the room sound is important and this sounds to me like close with an external reverb which doesn’t allow the strings to sing. Often in smaller rooms strings can sound a little boxy which is why everyone wants a studio like AR So you dont need to add too much externalverb.
> I am sorry I cant speak from personal experience not having bought the library yet which I probably will for all the great things it can do, but from what I have read here, it seems people are not liking the room sound of MSS so disabling the mix and only adding a little stage and or external verbs. I think your average non Vi control listener/punter without knowing why, ( particularly which has better legato transitions) would pick the CSS over the MSS version of this if asked which one sounded more like real strings.


I agree. I don't have any recording experience, but am familiar with both sounds. So you were talking about the legato not sounding like strings? I only wanted to say that the overall sound definitely sound like strings (neglecting the legato here).


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## ned3000 (Feb 22, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> @ned3000 , haven't you used the same-note-rebow in this jurassic park piece? I thought it was a good opportunity to show how the library handles that especially tha it has true same-note-rebowing if I remember correctly...


I actually found that using the sustain pedal (which I believe is the way to get the re-attacks) didn't work very well in that case. Sounded better with normal attacks w/ the previous note off very close to the next note on. It's possible that there's some setting that would have improved that though; didn't get too deep into the options.


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## Soundbed (Feb 22, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> I have to disagree...
> 
> 1-It's the job of the GUI knob *only to a certain limit. *Listen to Duncan's demos (labelled "slowest legato") where you can hear the transitions but still barely audible and lacking realism, hence..
> 
> ...


Wow those LASS examples are very impressive.

I’m glad my efforts weren’t “in vain” so to speak; you were able to draw more conclusions than I was so thank you 🙏.

Also happy you found the video amusing. It’s important to have fun while exploring sound.

About the transition sound - yes it sounds a little bow-y to me. I wasn’t sure if it was increased pressure though. Didn’t quite sound like a change in direction but didn’t quite sound like neatly timed fingered transitions from all players to me either. I’d be interested in string players’ opinions too. I played French horn in high school band, so I have less direct experience.


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## Batrawi (Feb 22, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Wow those LASS examples are very impressive.


Yep- LASS samples & infrastructure are crazy well implemented considering its age to respond SO WELL to this trick... so I'd be quite surprised if MSS can't potentially do the same or even better (considering it's a leap froward from LASS)!!


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## Noeticus (Feb 22, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> Yep- LASS samples & infrastructure are crazy well implemented considering its age to respond SO WELL to this trick... so I'd be quite surprised if MSS can't potentially do the same or even better (considering it's a leap froward from LASS)!!


Well, we will see soon, as there is an MSS update coming soon!


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## PerryD (Feb 22, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> @Batrawi,
> 
> For beautiful sounding Lyrical, and expressive legato strings I would recommend Strezov Sampling's *Afflatus*.
> 
> ...



Or you could pour a little reverb syrup on S&ES. Ha! Bad musical example here but they _can_ be wonderfully lyrical.


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## muziksculp (Feb 22, 2021)

PerryD said:


> Or you could pour a little reverb syrup on S&ES. Ha! Bad musical example here but they _can_ be wonderfully lyrical.


Hi @PerryD ,

I'm guessing S&ES is referring to Sample Modeling Solo & Ensemble Strings. If it's not, I'm not sure what library you are referring to. 

I'm currently working on building a custom template with them, using MIR-Pro, and Fabfilter Pro-R. and some additional custom edits. Yes, they can be super lyrical, they are also very agile, flexible, and expressive. 

Thanks.


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## PerryD (Feb 22, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @PerryD ,
> 
> I'm guessing S&ES is referring to Sample Modeling Solo & Ensemble Strings. If it's not, I'm not sure what library you are referring to.
> 
> ...


Yes, Samplemodeling.  I am using Fabfilter Pro-R as well. "Chapel 1" in this case.


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## muziksculp (Feb 22, 2021)

PerryD said:


> Yes, Samplemodeling.  I am using Fabfilter Pro-R as well. "Chapel 1" in this case.


I don't want to pollute this thread with other library discussions, you might want to read my posts here : https://vi-control.net/community/th...-ensemble-strings-released.84409/post-4768699

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## hendyb (Feb 22, 2021)

Is there any information how to do the PixelPoet trick in LASS 2.5 btw?
The example below sounds so good. 

I hope the audiobro team can do their magic and get us a great legato transition result.



Batrawi said:


> I have to disagree...
> 
> 1-It's the job of the GUI knob *only to a certain limit. *Listen to Duncan's demos (labelled "slowest legato") where you can hear the transitions but still barely audible and lacking realism, hence..
> 
> ...


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## Batrawi (Feb 22, 2021)

hendyb said:


> Is there any information how to do the PixelPoet trick in LASS 2.5 btw?
> The example below sounds so good.
> 
> I hope the audiobro team can do their magic and get us a great legato transition result.


yep it's linked in the first post, in the blurred section


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## Pixelpoet1985 (Feb 23, 2021)

hendyb said:


> Is there any information how to do the PixelPoet trick in LASS 2.5 btw?
> The example below sounds so good.
> 
> I hope the audiobro team can do their magic and get us a great legato transition result.


In general, I would say the legatos are quite fine as they are; this allows to play faster passages, too. For smoothing the legato a little bit, you can try to play with the sustain pedal. Works wonders!

Consider that my "trick" introduces some lag while playing.


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## Casiquire (Feb 23, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Yeah. I haven’t found ways to EQ life into the basic tone yet. 😋 I will probably use them to “add body” in hybrid orchestral pieces. I often (always?) layer strings, personally. But I also add synths.  I’ll use the FC / soloists and other libraries (like Tundra) for detail.
> 
> Thanks. I assume the port vol will change too, all automatable of course.
> 
> ...


Doesn't it seem logical to use faster transitions in faster passages? Or am i misunderstanding something


ned3000 said:


> I actually found that using the sustain pedal (which I believe is the way to get the re-attacks) didn't work very well in that case. Sounded better with normal attacks w/ the previous note off very close to the next note on. It's possible that there's some setting that would have improved that though; didn't get too deep into the options.


Rebows use the repeat key which i believe is A0


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## Batrawi (Feb 23, 2021)

dxmachina said:


> Probably worth mentioning at this point that there _will_ be an update (prior to us ending any intro period pricing). It may be significant for those following this thread. I wouldn't get too in the weeds under-the-hood (unless you enjoy it).



On this note, I was just checking AB's forum to find that there was already another thread created by one of the members suggesting MSS legato improvements... what impressed me though is how AB's response was so readily comforting & showing that not only they've been already closely and silently following users & market feedbacks (and I trust you know how some of those are really ugly and destructive ones) but also fastly yet steadily working in conjuction to adapt this giant complex beast which they have just released in accordance with the customers needs!!... I know I'm probably just restating the obvious and this is not new to AB, but this whole situation really dwarfs the concerns I personally have at the moment with this library.. this kind of proffesional dedication, humbleness & fairness towards customers is just beyond anything that I've seen from other bigger developers and is hard to believe is coming out just from only 2 guys!! So at this stage, the only thing I'm doubting is how long I'm gonna be able to resist to grab MSS even before hearing anything from this coming update.. even though it might or might not adress the most cruicial thing to me... even though AB are not putting any pricing/timeframe pressures until everyone is fully aware of what s/he is getting. So hats off to Audiobro!


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## Soundbed (Feb 23, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Doesn't it seem logical to use faster transitions in faster passages? Or am i misunderstanding something



You took the words out of my mouth


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## Batrawi (Feb 23, 2021)

As we wait for that update to drop, I think we haven't heard any examples of same-note-legato/same-note-rebow yet. I guess these must be different from note attacks, no? If anyone has the time can you post an quick example? just a single note rebowing should be fine I guess...


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## Duncan Krummel (Feb 24, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> As we wait for that update to drop, I think we haven't heard any examples of same-note-legato/same-note-rebow yet. I guess these must be different from note attacks, no? If anyone has the time can you post an quick example? just a single note rebowing should be fine I guess...


Actually my first demo makes use of several same note transitions using the rebow setting in MSS, though not exposed. I can demonstrate this in isolation tomorrow.


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## Soundbed (Feb 24, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> As we wait for that update to drop, I think we haven't heard any examples of same-note-legato/same-note-rebow yet. I guess these must be different from note attacks, no? If anyone has the time can you post an quick example? just a single note rebowing should be fine I guess...


I'll add it to the mega-walkthrough I'm building, which keeps getting longer.

Quick observations:


These rebows sound much more realistic if you automate RT (release tails) OFF during any rebow. This does not happen automagically. If you leave the RT ON, it sounds like overlapping audio and critical listeners (i.e., on VI-Control) will probably say it doesn't sound like "real strings" and sounds "synthy". 😉
The keyswitch (e.g., A-1) essentially "takes over" the held note, so you can lift up the note you were depressing and legato from its rebow into a new note (or rebow again pressing the original note again, which "takes over" from the keyswitch that is holding the sustained pitch).
The rebows sound most prominent at the lowest range and "tend" to get less audible as I move up the range. The effect is (predictably?) more subtle if more divisi are playing. There's a little more definition when isolating divisi groups.
It seems you can rebow with the cresc, norm or accent note starts. (Furthermore my initial tests sound like velocity of the rebow key might play a role even if the dynamics control are set to CC only, but my ears might be fooling me – or round robin note attacks are confusing my ears.)
Pretty sure I've never used a rebow system that is so involved, with so many variables to consider.

To be honest everything in this library takes time to explore because there's so many divisi to explore and they each sound subtly different. Every time you think you know what you're hearing, you can get a slightly different perspective on "it" [that feature] by changing to a different divisi.

[Edit - deleted last part]


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## Casiquire (Feb 24, 2021)

I love the sound of it. It's subtle, like it normally is with live strings. But subtlety is not entirely in fashion here lol! I think people might be expecting to hear a dramatic bow hammering. It's really a gentle pulse. I don't have the full library so I'm not sure how it reacts to the accented sustain if someone's looking for more grit, but at that point I'd just use a sustain with a hard attack anyway


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## molemac (Feb 24, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> I'll add it to the mega-walkthrough I'm building, which keeps getting longer.
> 
> Quick observations:
> 
> ...





Casiquire said:


> I love the sound of it. It's subtle, like it normally is with live strings. But subtlety is not entirely in fashion here lol! I think people might be expecting to hear a dramatic bow hammering. It's really a gentle pulse. I don't have the full library so I'm not sure how it reacts to the accented sustain if someone's looking for more grit, but at that point I'd just use a sustain with a hard attack anywayHaving read comments by Andrew and Sebastien on the Audiobro forum, I am pretty sure they are going to nail the legato issue and give us quite a few new options which is amazing really. They also mentioned possibly extending intro so we have more time to evaluate v1.1. So great that they are able to do that and take on board the comments here.





Casiquire said:


> I love the sound of it. It's subtle, like it normally is with live strings. But subtlety is not entirely in fashion here lol! I think people might be expecting to hear a dramatic bow hammering. It's really a gentle pulse. I don't have the full library so I'm not sure how it reacts to the accented sustain if someone's looking for more grit, but at that point I'd just use a sustain with a hard attack anyway


Having read comments on the Audiobro forum, I am pretty sure they are going to nail the legato issue and give us quite a few new options which is amazing really. They also mentioned possibly extending intro so we have more time to evaluate v1.1. So great that they are able to do that and take on board the comments here. Obviously in their interests too but still not many libraries are collaborative in this way.


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## Lazer42 (Feb 24, 2021)

molemac said:


> Having read comments on the Audiobro forum, I am pretty sure they are going to nail the legato issue and give us quite a few new options which is amazing really. They also mentioned possibly extending intro so we have more time to evaluate v1.1. So great that they are able to do that and take on board the comments here. Obviously in their interests too but still not many libraries are collaborative in this way.


What is being said in the forum which gives this particular expectation?


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## molemac (Feb 24, 2021)

Lazer42 said:


> What is being said in the forum which gives this particular expectation?


Top
Re: The Legato "Issue"​

by *Sebastian K* » Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:29 pm .

The one important thing to know is that we're not replacing the existing legato... just supplementing with some extraordinary new abilities. So there will be a mode that is more laggy and will gain cleaner transitions as a result, but you'll be able to dial that in to your taste. So hopefully whether you like a fast/smear legato or a laggier/clean legato (or anywhere in between) you'll be able to find the settings you like the sound/performance of. We're finding it reallyenjoyable to work with here in testing. Similar, the "schmaltzy" legato is a supplement... and will have a nice level of control.


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## Noeticus (Feb 24, 2021)

Yes, the MSS update will bring new power to one of the most detailed String Libraries in the history of man!

:emoji_fire: :emoji_fire: :emoji_fire:


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## GingerMaestro (Feb 24, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I noticed this with my SSP vs MSS comparison too, but MSS sounds muffled for some reason, even with close mics. There's no separation or clarity to the strings. Could be the mix though.
> 
> Here's a CSS / CS2 version I found of the same passage from Anne-Katherin Dern as a comparison:



I think there must be a wrong note in the score you guys are using to mock this up, I’ve heard it before. Last 8th (quaver) note of Measure Three should be a D natural. It should be a straight Bb over D chord.


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## Lazer42 (Feb 24, 2021)

GingerMaestro said:


> I think there must be a wrong note in the score you guys are using to mock this up, I’ve heard it before. Last 8th (quaver) note of Measure Three should be a D natural. It should be a straight Bb over D chord.


I think what you're hearing may be not that the D is wrong, but that there is a G in there as well so it's basically a Gm7/D. You can see it here: https://fdocuments.in/document/john-williams-jurassic-park-highlights-orchestral-scorepdf.html

I am trying to dig up the original orchestral score, which I think have been able to find before, to see what it had. I would agree that based on the sound of the original recording the G should not be there.

EDIT: here is. if I'm not mistaken, the original. You'll have to dig through and find the exact cue, though. I haven't found it yet. https://dokumen.tips/documents/john-williams-jurassic-park-scorepdf.html

EDIT 2: I found it on page 59, I think. It's always a bit hard to read these hand written scores, but I think we can see in the celli a Bb and an F, with the F moving to a G on the last 8th note of the measure - so it may be that these scores which are arranged for popular consumption and which are as I understand it often simplified from the original just puts the G on the beat itself.


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## GingerMaestro (Feb 24, 2021)

Lazer42 said:


> I think what you're hearing may be not that the D is wrong, but that there is a G in there as well so it's basically a Gm7/D. You can see it here: https://fdocuments.in/document/john-williams-jurassic-park-highlights-orchestral-scorepdf.html
> 
> I am trying to dig up the original orchestral score, which I think have been able to find before, to see what it had. I would agree that based on the sound of the original recording the G should not be there.
> 
> ...


Interesting...I’m not hearing Gminor on the Original sound track. These are the relevant bars from the printed score, which although a reduced orchestration, the harmonies match the recording...either way the mock-up version sounds weird to my ear !


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## Lazer42 (Feb 24, 2021)

GingerMaestro said:


> Interesting...I’m not hearing Gminor on the Original sound track. These are the relevant bars from the printed score, which although a reduced orchestration, the harmonies match the recording...either way the mock-up version sounds weird to my ear !


I agree that I don't here it in the soundtrack, but I think this may be because the G isn't (supposed to?) come in until the off-beat and so it winds up blending into the sound of the melodic line. If I slow the soundtrack version down to half speed I can sortof hear it, but definitely not on the beat.


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## BasariStudios (Feb 24, 2021)

Lazer42 said:


> EDIT: here is. if I'm not mistaken, the original. You'll have to dig through and find the exact cue, though. I haven't found it yet. https://dokumen.tips/documents/john-williams-jurassic-park-scorepdf.html


Holy F!!! I opened that Document and i got so scared and closed it right back.


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## Batrawi (Feb 24, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> So at this stage, the only thing I'm doubting is how long I'm gonna be able to resist to grab MSS


..and I did not expect it would be that quick


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## BasariStudios (Feb 24, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> ..and I did not expect it would be that quick


Same here, i am ready to click buy.
What's your Wife saying?


----------



## Batrawi (Feb 24, 2021)

BasariStudios said:


> Same here, i am ready to click buy.
> What's your Wife saying?


I convinced her that I'm buying a ring...


----------



## Oliver (Feb 25, 2021)

a ring to bind you... forever? :-D


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## Raphioli (Feb 25, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> I convinced her that I'm buying a ring...


That sure does look like "that ring".
I think I'm being drawn towards it...


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## Batrawi (Feb 26, 2021)

...OK so this is a quick lyrical example(mockup) I put together - with legato tweaks I made at the front & back ends of the GUI (so I won't go into details as AB are already working on leg. improvements)- but all I want to say is that this library is definitely capable of lyrical writing (with expressive legato as CSS)... so hopefully AB will nail it!
View attachment MSS-Batrawi-Test.mp3


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## novaburst (Feb 26, 2021)

May I ask what you it did sound very nice


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## Sovereign (Feb 26, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> ...OK so this is a quick lyrical example I put together - with legato tweaks I made at the front & back ends of the GUI (so I won't go into details as AB are already working on leg. improvements)- but all I want to say is that this library is definitely capable of lyrical writing (with expressive legato as CSS)... so hopefully AB will nail it!
> View attachment MSS-Batrawi-Test.mp3


While I don't like the tone/timbre of MSS, this is quite an improvement. I presume that enough of the transitions were available in the backend to make this happen. Too bad VSL is so stubborn with Synchron Pro, a similar improvement could be achieved if you can move the startpoints of the transitions further back as you can see here.


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## amorphosynthesis (Feb 26, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> won't go into details as AB





Batrawi said:


> so hopefully AB will nail it!


If I were AB,I would definitely hire you!!!!!


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## I like music (Feb 26, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> ...OK so this is a quick lyrical example I put together - with legato tweaks I made at the front & back ends of the GUI (so I won't go into details as AB are already working on leg. improvements)- but all I want to say is that this library is definitely capable of lyrical writing (with expressive legato as CSS)... so hopefully AB will nail it!
> View attachment MSS-Batrawi-Test.mp3


Now this is interesting ... very nice.


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## Russell Anderson (Feb 26, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> ...OK so this is a quick lyrical example I put together - with legato tweaks I made at the front & back ends of the GUI (so I won't go into details as AB are already working on leg. improvements)- but all I want to say is that this library is definitely capable of lyrical writing (with expressive legato as CSS)... so hopefully AB will nail it!
> View attachment MSS-Batrawi-Test.mp3


My eyebrows physically went upward on my head


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## Toecutter (Feb 26, 2021)

Sovereign said:


> While I don't like the tone/timbre of MSS, this is quite an improvement. I presume that enough of the transitions were available in the backend to make this happen. Too bad VSL is so stubborn with Synchron Pro, a similar improvement could be achieved if you can move the startpoints of the transitions further back as you can see here.


MSS is very playable, Batrawi demo is a great example of that, but why it has to sound this thin and sterile?! It just defeats the purpose to me, almost like Audio Modeling where you can do pretty much anything you want with the instrument but it sounds like 💩


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## Batrawi (Feb 26, 2021)

take into consideration, the sound may particularly sound bad in this example as it seems that the mp3 quality I exported wasn't that good in the first place. I also only used the close mics here and I boosted the "brightness" knob.. these of course may not be the perfect mixing combination (they are careless in fact) and there is a lot to explore with the other mics & eq presets etc.. but that wasn't the purpose of this example


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## Raphioli (Feb 26, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> ...OK so this is a quick lyrical example I put together - with legato tweaks I made at the front & back ends of the GUI (so I won't go into details as AB are already working on leg. improvements)- but all I want to say is that this library is definitely capable of lyrical writing (with expressive legato as CSS)... so hopefully AB will nail it!
> View attachment MSS-Batrawi-Test.mp3


I think Audiobro should hire you as a beta tester. Thats a huge improvement


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## Lazer42 (Feb 26, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> ...OK so this is a quick lyrical example I put together - with legato tweaks I made at the front & back ends of the GUI (so I won't go into details as AB are already working on leg. improvements)- but all I want to say is that this library is definitely capable of lyrical writing (with expressive legato as CSS)... so hopefully AB will nail it!
> View attachment MSS-Batrawi-Test.mp3


That sounds much better than the vast majority of what I've heard so far. Was anything done to the basic tone here (eq, reverb, effects, etc.) apart from what was done to the legato transitions?


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## Evans (Feb 26, 2021)

Thanks for getting your hands dirty, @Batrawi. I only picked up MSS to use as some textural elements, so hyper up-front, lyrical legato isn't my focus for it. But this does sound a lot better.


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## Casiquire (Feb 26, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> ...OK so this is a quick lyrical example I put together - with legato tweaks I made at the front & back ends of the GUI (so I won't go into details as AB are already working on leg. improvements)- but all I want to say is that this library is definitely capable of lyrical writing (with expressive legato as CSS)... so hopefully AB will nail it!
> View attachment MSS-Batrawi-Test.mp3


I think even with their improvements, it still might be useful to know what you did!


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## BasariStudios (Feb 26, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> ...OK so this is a quick lyrical example I put together - with legato tweaks I made at the front & back ends of the GUI (so I won't go into details as AB are already working on leg. improvements)- but all I want to say is that this library is definitely capable of lyrical writing (with expressive legato as CSS)... so hopefully AB will nail it!
> View attachment MSS-Batrawi-Test.mp3


Hold on...wait...she went for it?


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## AEF (Feb 26, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I think even with their improvements, it still might be useful to know what you did!


seconded!


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## rottoy (Feb 26, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> ...OK so this is a quick lyrical example I put together - with legato tweaks I made at the front & back ends of the GUI (so I won't go into details as AB are already working on leg. improvements)- but all I want to say is that this library is definitely capable of lyrical writing (with expressive legato as CSS)... so hopefully AB will nail it!
> View attachment MSS-Batrawi-Test.mp3


Now THIS is what I'm talking about! A massive improvement.


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## Vladimir Bulaev (Feb 26, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> ...OK so this is a quick lyrical example I put together - with legato tweaks I made at the front & back ends of the GUI (so I won't go into details as AB are already working on leg. improvements)- but all I want to say is that this library is definitely capable of lyrical writing (with expressive legato as CSS)... so hopefully AB will nail it!
> View attachment MSS-Batrawi-Test.mp3


 In this example, modern scoring strings?


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## muziksculp (Feb 26, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> MSS is very playable, Batrawi demo is a great example of that, but why it has to sound this thin and sterile?! It just defeats the purpose to me, almost like Audio Modeling where you can do pretty much anything you want with the instrument but it sounds like 💩


I think it sounds thin because he is using only the close-mics, and no reverb. So, it's quite normal that strings with no acoustics are not going to sound rich, and thick.

I like what @Batrawi was able to get MSS legatos to do after his edits. Which gives me hope that the 1.1 Update will do something similar, or even better if AB provide the needed parameter controls to do this from the GUI.

I will re-evaluate MSS, and Legato Expansions after the 1.1 Update has been released.


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## muziksculp (Feb 26, 2021)

@Batrawi,

Thanks for your legato edit demo. I hear a very noticeable legato improvement.

Have you shared your edit with AudioBro ? I think it will be a good idea that you do so if you have not, so they know about it, and what parameters you edited, while they are working on the 1.1 update. 

I'm going to re-evaluate MSS, and Leg-Expansion once the 1.1 Update is out. 

*Congratulations ! * you got MSS  and hope that the 1.1. update improves MSS Legatos, and other details considerably.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Batrawi (Feb 26, 2021)

what I did here is the PixelPoet-Trick BUT I also selected the sustain sample group... apparently offsetting the sample start for those as well allowed the legato-end to connect more smoothly with the sustain-beginning without the loud "clash effect" we heard in the @Soundbed experiment..(but still I feel there is a little blur in the transitions that i trust AB will iron out easily). In the GUI I've set the normal leg. spd to the slowest and kept global leg. spd at noon (don't ask me why but I felt the leg. sounded better this way)... Finally, this is also "just another experiment" and what might have worked well for this tempo might not work in another, so I don't recommend it as I'm sure AB will come out with a much sophisticated model which will allow all those tweaks with few clicks and with much cleaner transitions


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## Batrawi (Feb 26, 2021)

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> In this example, modern scoring strings?


yes


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## Batrawi (Feb 26, 2021)

Lazer42 said:


> Was anything done to the basic tone here (eq, reverb, effects, etc.) apart from what was done to the legato transitions?


ALL default fx were truned off. this was just the close mic with "brightness" turned to the max.


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## Raphioli (Feb 26, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> what I did here is the PixelPoet-Trick BUT I also selected the sustain sample group...



I'm sure everyone knows we have lots of acronyms for various things (especially when it comes to library names).
I think this PixelPoet trick deserves an acronym (PPT) because of how good it is.

Jokes aside, the results was amazing and felt there was huge improvement.
Thanks for sharing!


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## Evans (Feb 26, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> what I did here is the PixelPoet-Trick BUT I also selected the sustain sample group.


Huh... interesting. I'm not exactly sure what it's doing under the hood, but this does sound "better" for certain uses.


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## Noeticus (Feb 26, 2021)

Raphioli said:


> I'm sure everyone knows we have lots of acronyms for various things (especially when it comes to library names).
> I think this PixelPoet trick deserves an acronym (PPT) because of how good it is.
> 
> Jokes aside, the results was amazing and felt there was huge improvement.
> Thanks for sharing!


PixPT


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## Tom Ferguson (Feb 26, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> ...OK so this is a quick lyrical example I put together - with legato tweaks I made at the front & back ends of the GUI (so I won't go into details as AB are already working on leg. improvements)- but all I want to say is that this library is definitely capable of lyrical writing (with expressive legato as CSS)... so hopefully AB will nail it!
> View attachment MSS-Batrawi-Test.mp3


Damn that's miles better than default. Makes me wonder what other libraries could be seriously improved with some tweaks like this! (maybe another thread?)


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## lettucehat (Feb 26, 2021)

see, that's a great sounding legato and it has nothing to do with sounding like CSS or any other romantic library. not even close. but it sounds like actual players connecting notes. only question is what happened that the most fundamental articulation came out so different from this?


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## Raphioli (Feb 26, 2021)

lettucehat said:


> see, that's a great sounding legato and it has nothing to do with sounding like CSS or any other romantic library. not even close. but it sounds like actual players connecting notes. only question is what happened that the most fundamental articulation came out so different from this?


Exactly.
When people were talking about bad legatos, it didn't mean we wanted MSS to sound like CSS.
We just wanted a good smooth musical legato with MSS's timbre/sound.


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## ism (Feb 26, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> MSS is very playable, Batrawi demo is a great example of that, but why it has to sound this thin and sterile?! It just defeats the purpose to me, almost like Audio Modeling where you can do pretty much anything you want with the instrument but it sounds like 💩


I'm starting to get the feeling that maybe you just don't like the sound, and that maybe, therefore, this isn't quite the right library for you.


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## soulofsound (Feb 26, 2021)

I think MSS sounds great. You can engineer the sound to match musical environments impossible to achieve in my view with other libraries. The dynamic range also helps a lot. Try writing very soft textures like you find in almost every Sondheim recording. I don't see how you do that with CSS or Vista. It needs restraint and purity. Then when you dial the mod wheel MSS has enough to shine, i think. My two cents.


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## molemac (Feb 26, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> ...OK so this is a quick lyrical example(mockup) I put together - with legato tweaks I made at the front & back ends of the GUI (so I won't go into details as AB are already working on leg. improvements)- but all I want to say is that this library is definitely capable of lyrical writing (with expressive legato as CSS)... so hopefully AB will nail it!
> View attachment MSS-Batrawi-Test.mp3





ism said:


> I'm starting to get the feeling that maybe you just don't like the sound, and that maybe, therefore, this isn't quite the right library for you.


Yes much much better, have been converting my Lass to PIX too. Could you please do us a favour and repost it with some love to the sound (Ir reverbs etc and a bit more 2nds in the mix) and for me anyway remove the portamentos (they scream out sample library). I think that would help push MSS up a gear in the real sounding dept.


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## BasariStudios (Feb 26, 2021)

All i know is that Batrawi's Wife bought him his MSS
and the guy was under Pressure to Improve it.


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## Casiquire (Feb 26, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> MSS is very playable, Batrawi demo is a great example of that, but why it has to sound this thin and sterile?! It just defeats the purpose to me, almost like Audio Modeling where you can do pretty much anything you want with the instrument but it sounds like 💩


Doesn't help that in that particular example, the Brightness knob is turned all the way up. The legato does sound great though


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## karender (Feb 26, 2021)

Can we expect something like Audio Imperia did? So we can change the sample start for everything with the same value then compensate from D.A.W.
Isn't this pixelpoet trick?





By the way, are sample start delays different on each articulation?


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## Pixelpoet1985 (Feb 26, 2021)

Tom Ferguson said:


> Damn that's miles better than default. Makes me wonder what other libraries could be seriously improved with some tweaks like this! (maybe another thread?)


For other libraries you need my permission; there will also be a little adaptation fee. 😂 

Just joking! (That ship has sailed.) It can definitely work, but only with libraries that have the originally recorded (longer) transitions preserved, so that you are able to offset the sample start.


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## Casiquire (Feb 26, 2021)

karender said:


> Can we expect something like Audio Imperia did? So we can change the sample start for everything with the same value then compensate from D.A.W.
> Isn't this pixelpoet trick?
> 
> 
> ...


That's supposedly what the legato speed knob does


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## Obi-Wan Spaghetti (Feb 27, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> what I did here is the PixelPoet-Trick BUT I also selected the sustain sample group... apparently offsetting the sample start for those as well allowed the legato-end to connect more smoothly with the sustain-beginning without the loud "clash effect" we heard in the @Soundbed experiment..(but still I feel there is a little blur in the transitions that i trust AB will iron out easily). In the GUI I've set the normal leg. spd to the slowest and kept global leg. spd at noon (don't ask me why but I felt the leg. sounded better this way)... Finally, this is also "just another experiment" and what might have worked well for this tempo might not work in another, so I don't recommend it as I'm sure AB will come out with a much sophisticated model which will allow all those tweaks with few clicks and with much cleaner transitions


While I'm pretty sure they read this, but you need to make sure that they do and hear it.


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## Obi-Wan Spaghetti (Feb 27, 2021)

lettucehat said:


> see, that's a great sounding legato and it has nothing to do with sounding like CSS or any other romantic library. not even close. but it sounds like actual players connecting notes. only question is what happened that the most fundamental articulation came out so different from this?


Maybe wanting to do everything made them lose sight of what is really important? I'm mostly thinking about divisi, a feature they seem attach a lot of importance to(and I'm not sure it's warranted). And they end up testing legatos in divisi mode and sort of scipped testing legatos phrases?


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## Casiquire (Feb 27, 2021)

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> Maybe wanting to do everything made them lose sight of what is really important? I'm mostly thinking about divisi, a feature they seem attach a lot of importance to(and I'm not sure it's warranted). And they end up testing legatos in divisi mode and sort of scipped testing legatos phrases?


It's absolutely warranted. There's a lot of romantic-era string writing that no library other than LASS can do


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## Lazer42 (Feb 27, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> It's absolutely warranted. There's a lot of romantic-era string writing that no library other than LASS can do


I know tat opinions tend to be split on this. Some people think it is essential, while others think divisi in libraries always sounds bad. I personally have no opinion.


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## Casiquire (Feb 27, 2021)

Lazer42 said:


> I know tat opinions tend to be split on this. Some people think it is essential, while others think divisi in libraries always sounds bad. I personally have no opinion.


Right, it depends on the type of music you write and want to record. If you write that type of music though, it's as necessary as individual sections


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## Obi-Wan Spaghetti (Feb 27, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> It's absolutely warranted. There's a lot of romantic-era string writing that no library other than LASS can do


I was referring to the divisi script mostly. I mean it's nice bonus feature but good longs/legatos should be the priority, then you add more feature like divisi script. 

I have mix feelings about divisi sections. Aside from the obvious, one advantage is you get more strings for your $. As in more sections from small to big sections. But they better play well together or else you could end up with ordinary to mediocre results. A disadvantage is that managing all those sections could be more complicated. An other advantage i see is one could mix articulations like legatos and portamento, i bet that can be useful sometimes. Also, more sections mean you can offsets each section to give the part more realism sometimes, like in real life. But the part that worry me most is how well and homogenize can the results be if they're not recorded together? Emphasis on "together" here. But, the benefits makes me very curious and I'd like to try. Plus there's so much extra in MSS that it could never really be a bad investment imo.


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## Casiquire (Feb 27, 2021)

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> I was referring to the divisi script mostly. I mean it's nice bonus feature but good longs/legatos should be the priority, then you add more feature like divisi script.
> 
> I have mix feelings about divisi sections. Aside from the obvious, one advantage is you get more strings for your $. As in more sections from small to big sections. But they better play well together or else you could end up with ordinary to mediocre results. A disadvantage is that managing all those sections could be more complicated. An other advantage i see is one could mix articulations like legatos and portamento, i bet that can be useful sometimes. Also, more sections mean you can offsets each section to give the part more realism sometimes, like in real life. But the part that worry me most is how well and homogenize can the results be if they're not recorded together? Emphasis on "together" here. But, the benefits makes me very curious and I'd like to try. Plus there's so much extra in MSS that it could never really be a bad investment imo.


I do wonder about the recording process for LASS because of how well they play together. I'm sure they have some tricks for blending, like how Dimension Strings literally did play together. It does indeed come with a lot of advantages. It might not work for every library, but i definitely need a lot of options


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## Obi-Wan Spaghetti (Feb 27, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> ...OK so this is a quick lyrical example(mockup) I put together - with legato tweaks I made at the front & back ends of the GUI (so I won't go into details as AB are already working on leg. improvements)- but all I want to say is that this library is definitely capable of lyrical writing (with expressive legato as CSS)... so hopefully AB will nail it!
> View attachment MSS-Batrawi-Test.mp3


Di you try to do that with the extended legatos? Cause, aside for the Sul Tasto, those didn't sound very smooth either it seems. I think they might benefit from your edit trick. Thanks.
edited: oops! i forgot it's not you trick! hehe!


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## Soundbed (Feb 27, 2021)

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> I'm mostly thinking about divisi, a feature they seem attach a lot of importance to(and I'm not sure it's warranted). And they end up testing legatos in divisi mode and sort of scipped testing legatos phrases?


On the other "main" thread one of the Devs (dxmachina) mentioned he usually prefers to write without using their own auto-divisi, if I recall correctly.


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## Obi-Wan Spaghetti (Feb 27, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> On the other "main" thread one of the Devs (dxmachina) mentioned he usually prefers to write without using their own auto-divisi, if I recall correctly.


Yea i though that was surprising.


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## Soundbed (Feb 27, 2021)

While y'all are testing legato, don't forget you can "layer" shorts like Martelé over your arco legatos.

I know some people hate layering shorts with legato, but I was testing MSS against Con Moto which often sounds like a bowed transition rather than fingered. And to get MSS sounding snappy and responsive like Con Moto, I found layering the Martelé (or maybe, just maybe, the staccato) was getting me much closer.

Shift click to add. To change the settings for each without "de-selecting," click the gear / cog for each articulation and it will stay "on" but the controls underneath will appear, allowing you to adjust them.

Also the gear (or "cog") under the dynamics wheel has 4 choices (CC, Vel or combos) so your shorts (e.g., martelé) can ride with the mod wheel together or separately with the velocities.

Finally, to get them as responsive as Con Moto I was starting all notes as an Accent and all transitions as Leg.


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## Casiquire (Feb 27, 2021)

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> Yea i though that was surprising.


That's how i use it too. Independent timing and dynamics breathe more life and realism into it


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## Casiquire (Feb 27, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> While y'all are testing legato, don't forget you can "layer" shorts like Martelé over your arco legatos.
> 
> I know some people hate layering shorts with legato, but I was testing MSS against Con Moto which often sounds like a bowed transition rather than fingered. And to get MSS sounding snappy and responsive like Con Moto, I found layering the Martelé (or maybe, just maybe, the staccato) was getting me much closer.
> 
> ...


Do you dislike the built in bow change articulation?


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## Soundbed (Feb 27, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Do you dislike the built in bow change articulation?


It’s way more subtle than con Moto don’t you think?


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## samplin (Feb 28, 2021)

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> I was referring to the divisi script mostly. I mean it's nice bonus feature but good longs/legatos should be the priority, then you add more feature like divisi script.
> 
> I have mix feelings about divisi sections. Aside from the obvious, one advantage is you get more strings for your $. As in more sections from small to big sections. But they better play well together or else you could end up with ordinary to mediocre results. A disadvantage is that managing all those sections could be more complicated. An other advantage i see is one could mix articulations like legatos and portamento, i bet that can be useful sometimes. Also, more sections mean you can offsets each section to give the part more realism sometimes, like in real life. But the part that worry me most is how well and homogenize can the results be if they're not recorded together? Emphasis on "together" here. But, the benefits makes me very curious and I'd like to try. Plus there's so much extra in MSS that it could never really be a bad investment imo.


Hi

Divisi sections are invaluable to me, but it depends on what music you are writing, so if it works for you without then its all good.
I use them for

separate strings harmonies which can sound over whelming if you’re using a 32 violin section x 3

also I can put the different sections in a different space which helps definition.

Humanizing the timing between the sections can add some nice realism.

Layering with another library 

each divisi also has a different sound so gives more choice.

That’s just a few things I can think of right now. There are all full mixes which ~I use a lot , but when I need that extra harmony or effect they are nice.

m


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## Casiquire (Feb 28, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> It’s way more subtle than con Moto don’t you think?


Well sure but that's an awfully low bar, given how exaggerated CM is. Live musicians try to smooth out their bow changes. Would be nice if there were a slider for how intense you want the effect but in 2021 it's uncommon for a library to even offer both


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## Obi-Wan Spaghetti (Feb 28, 2021)

samplin said:


> Hi
> 
> Divisi sections are invaluable to me, but it depends on what music you are writing, so if it works for you without then its all good.
> I use them for
> ...


Harmonies is what i meant when mentioned the obvious. And these are all good points.


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## Hanu_H (Feb 28, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> ...OK so this is a quick lyrical example(mockup) I put together - with legato tweaks I made at the front & back ends of the GUI (so I won't go into details as AB are already working on leg. improvements)- but all I want to say is that this library is definitely capable of lyrical writing (with expressive legato as CSS)... so hopefully AB will nail it!
> View attachment MSS-Batrawi-Test.mp3


This sounds really good. I was a bit worried about the legato and the sound of the sustains but this gives me hope. Waiting for the 1.1. before I make my decision.


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## molemac (Feb 28, 2021)

Hanu_H said:


> This sounds really good. I was a bit worried about the legato and the sound of the sustains but this gives me hope. Waiting for the 1.1. before I make my decision.


I’m in the same boat. Any news on when to expect 1.1 ?


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## BasariStudios (Feb 28, 2021)

F IT! I am pulling the Plug, my BDay tomorrow, my Wife's
Gift, i was thinking of what but i really want this with a hope
that the update will fix few things.


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## Evans (Feb 28, 2021)

molemac said:


> I’m in the same boat. Any news on when to expect 1.1 ?


I don't believe they've said, neither here nor on their own site. But they have said that they'll give people the opportunity to get in on the intro price after the update arrives.


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## BasariStudios (Feb 28, 2021)

I can't Wait!!!


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## Casiquire (Jul 19, 2021)

ka00 said:


> Bringing this thread back to life. Apologies if it's been discussed anywhere, but this might actually be a feature request. I'll send it to AudioBro if it makes sense, but I want to run it by the hive mind here first.
> 
> I like how the automatic parameters - like transition speed, legato offset transition volume work without much need to tweak. But what I'm wondering is if you assign a CC to each of these three parameters - is there a way that your DAW could write those automatically generated values down to CC lanes you've specified?
> 
> ...


I'm not sure about that question exactly, but as a workaround, could you automate the "auto" button instead? Then switch off auto for the parts you want to teeak


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## ka00 (Jul 19, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I'm not sure about that question exactly, but as a workaround, could you automate the "auto" button instead? Then switch off auto for the parts you want to teeak


Oh that’s a good idea. Didn’t realize you could do that. Much simpler! Thanks!


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## Phryq (Jan 20, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> Right, it depends on the type of music you write and want to record. If you write that type of music though, it's as necessary as individual sections


When does divisi sound bad?


Is there any way to off-set legato so that shorts and longs line-up? CSS has that 3rd party Kontakt Script IIRC; would be nice if it were just build into the instrument. I wouldn't mind a 600ms delay if it's consistent.


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## Trevor Meier (Jan 20, 2022)

Phryq said:


> When does divisi sound bad?
> 
> 
> Is there any way to off-set legato so that shorts and longs line-up? CSS has that 3rd party Kontakt Script IIRC; would be nice if it were just build into the instrument. I wouldn't mind a 600ms delay if it's consistent.


This is probably one of MSS’ best workflow features: automatic lookahead. When turned on, there’s a track delay of 400ms (440ms if you use auto-divisi). The engine automatically lines up all of the shorts, legatos, ostinato etc so they play in time.


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## Casiquire (Jan 20, 2022)

Phryq said:


> When does divisi sound bad?
> 
> 
> Is there any way to off-set legato so that shorts and longs line-up? CSS has that 3rd party Kontakt Script IIRC; would be nice if it were just build into the instrument. I wouldn't mind a 600ms delay if it's consistent.


That Lookahead feature with MSS is killer. Consistent 400ms. 

I'm not sure i understand the question, but some individual sections of LASS have tuning issues. When you blend all the sections you don't hear any of the tuning issues, so you only hear then occasionally when those sections are in isolation. That's about the only divisi downside I'm aware of


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