# Best Altiverb IR for Celin Dion type vocal?



## Rob Elliott (May 1, 2008)

Hey there,
Anyone suggest the best 'room' in Altiverb 6 for this type of vocal. I just finished an orchestral / vocal arrangment for a client of "God Bless America' (think big Celin Dion dramatic style).


I'll probably put the orchestral in Todd AO (love that room) - but can you suggest the best 'stage or concert hall' for the vocal?


Many thanks in advance.


Rob


(also a bit of a novice on AV6 still but for the vocal I still turn off the 'direct' botton?)


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## Scott Cairns (May 1, 2008)

Hi Rob, I dont know a specific preset, but Id suggest finding a decent sounding room and applying some pre-delay to the wet signal.

The best vox IMO are a blend between clarity (dryness) and power (reverb)

A small pre-delay will help in keeping the vocals clear and understandable, the following reverb patch then suggests the environment, or indeed the 'power' of the singer.

Just my opinion. 

-Scott.


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## synthetic (May 1, 2008)

I believe Humberto Gatica used an AMS RMX16 on Celene, which is in Altiverb.


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## Jack Weaver (May 1, 2008)

Hi Rob,

I'm sure that everyone has their opinions on this. But I don't think Altiverb by itself is going to do the trick. Since it's a convolution reverb it's not going to have all the delays & regenerated delays that you hear with Celin Dion. Convos don't have all the dynamically moving stuff that you might find in big effects-type reverbs. 

It's going to take some soft of combo of reverb & delays that you might get with one of the various Eventide Harmonizers. It's too bad that Eventide doesn't make their plugin for native systems. It is the one thing that I really miss after I abandoning my PT HD system for a Logic rig. 

Why don't you rent a harmonizer for the day or take a mix with a separate vocal track over to a local studio and do a couple of mixes. Also a hardware TC6000 or one of the big Lexicon reverbs might do it. Maybe even a mixture of them. 

But I would be surprised if Altiverb alone could do this. The type of studios that she uses have all the hardware goodies. 

Although Logic's Delay Designer and Altiverb would be fun to try for this purpose. I haven't upgraded to L8 yet so I can't say for sure. If I remember correctly, you're on a PC so that is probably out though.


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## Bruce Richardson (May 2, 2008)

Another vocal trick that almost everyone uses is doubling. If you don't want the sound of a doubled vocal, use a doubler (instead of double-tracking) and lower the doubled signal until you literally can't tell it's there...but no more.

The vocal will sound a lot "meatier," but won't sound like two people or a chorus. If you hear any chorusing, just lower it a little more.


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## Christian Marcussen (May 2, 2008)

Scott Cairns @ Thu May 01 said:


> Hi Rob, I dont know a specific preset, but Id suggest finding a decent sounding room and applying some pre-delay to the wet signal.
> 
> The best vox IMO are a blend between clarity (dryness) and power (reverb)
> 
> ...



Scott - what's the "theory" behind Pre-Delay. It's all new to me... do you use it for orchestra as well?


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## Scott Cairns (May 2, 2008)

Hey Christian, absolutely you can use it for orchestra. Just try it on brass! 

All it is, is setting an amount of time before the reverb responds to your signal.

So, for example, if you set a large concert hall, chances are your instrument could be 'lost in the wash' - but if you dial in a pre-delay first, perhaps 20ms, what you get is your instrument sounding dry for that split second *before* the reverb kicks in.

Im not an audio engineer, but hopefully my description is somewhat accurate.

Or here's one from the Wiki; _"Predelay - delay-time in msecs before the actual reverb is being bounced (effect is being played)"_

Cheers,

Scott.


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## Christian Marcussen (May 2, 2008)

Great stuff Scott. That makes good sense. Thanks.


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## Scott Cairns (May 2, 2008)

Jack has a really good point, perhaps a dedicated reverb unit would do the job more convincingly.

Bruce's trick is a good one too - my technique is a little different; I double the vocal track, compress the heck out of it, and EQ it to hype the highs and lows.

What you get is a really exaggerated vocal. But you then mix this second track in subtly, to enhance the original. (admittedly, this is used more for R&B, rap etc.)


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## Scott Cairns (May 2, 2008)

Christian Marcussen @ Fri May 02 said:


> Great stuff Scott. That makes good sense. Thanks.



No worries Christian. Pre-delay is a great way of suggesting awesome power in an instrument, hence why it works so well on brass. 

You can even play around with setting your brass to one point on the sound stage, say 11 o'clock and having the reverb bounce at around 2 or 3 o'clock (in pan positions)


Sorry for the hijack Rob.


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## musicpete (May 2, 2008)

Scott, you make some good points. However I would like to emphasize the importance of proper pre-delay selection when using impulse responses. It is very easy to end up with the typical "recorded in a bathroom from through the wooden door" effect.

Maybe a discussion of proper pre-delay technique when using IRs would be in order?


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## Rob Elliott (May 2, 2008)

Hey thanks guys for some great ideas. Because of budget and this singer's inability to get it 'right' - this side of 1000 years :oops: - I'll not do this with 'double tracking each part - but look at doing this with software and kicking the 'double' way back.


I don't want to go out and buy more software for this if I can help it (just finished a studio remodel and replacing two farm units.) Perhaps I can get this beefier sound with a combo of a digital delay in Cubase along with Altiverb? The stereo delay is not half bad that is in Cubase.

Your thoughts? Any other free or 'near free' options out there?


Thanks again guys.

Rob


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## Dan Selby (May 2, 2008)

Definitely worth experimenting with a couple of delay lines in Cubase, Rob. Regarding Altiverb, I would be looking at Samplicity IRs or other IRs of hardware reverb units rather than IRs of real acoustic spaces - algorhythmic verb tends to work very well and be really widely used with pop vocal production - you're after good, not real. Incidentally, many of Peter's IRs already have predelay since the programs he sampled are built that way.

Cheers,

Dan


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## Rob Elliott (May 2, 2008)

Thanks Dan. I should have also mentioned that I also have Wizoo W2 (which I still really like!!!) I used some of the small club sounds recently on a more 'organic' folk project - the client loved it.

I bet there are a few options in there I could find (doubled with the Cubase delay - pun intended :mrgreen: )


Thanks again.



Rob


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## Synesthesia (May 2, 2008)

Hi Rob!

One trick to turn your AV into a lexicon is to use one of the lexicon presets (vocal hall or something) from the Altiverb library (L4800 I think?) or Peter's great Samplicity project - apply a predelay of about 150 ms but time it to your bpm - find the nearest 'subdivision' to 150ms (quarter note, eighth, etc) so its in time with the music, and then apply a **very gentle** chorus to the reverb tail.

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## Dietz (May 3, 2008)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri May 02 said:


> "[...] Another way to look at what Scott said: predelay is the ka in ka-boom; boom is the reverb tail. [...]


 :lol: Thanks for that comparison, Nick - it will find its way into my (always growing) set of "quick and catchy explanations".


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## Rob Elliott (May 3, 2008)

Synesthesia @ Fri May 02 said:


> Hi Rob!
> 
> One trick to turn your AV into a lexicon is to use one of the lexicon presets (vocal hall or something) from the Altiverb library (L4800 I think?) or Peter's great Samplicity project - apply a predelay of about 150 ms but time it to your bpm - find the nearest 'subdivision' to 150ms (quarter note, eighth, etc) so its in time with the music, and then apply a **very gentle** chorus to the reverb tail.
> 
> ...


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## MacQ (May 4, 2008)

I'd never use a convolution reverb on a vocal like that ... what algorithmic reverbs do you have?

~Stu


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## Scott Cairns (May 4, 2008)

Bruce Richardson @ Mon May 05 said:


> As long as we're now joking:
> 
> Best Altiverb IR for a Celine Dion vocal?
> 
> **mute**



Yes, I was resisting the tempation too. 8)


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## Patrick de Caumette (May 4, 2008)

Bruce Richardson @ Sun May 04 said:


> As long as we're now joking:
> 
> Best Altiverb IR for a Celine Dion vocal?
> 
> **mute**



Since Bruce started: apply the IR of this room to your vocals, this will bring your vocal track very close to Celine Dion's...
http://www.toiletmuseum.com/lgpic.php?photo=internationale/stafleu2.jpg (Celine's vocal IR)

:twisted:


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## Rob Elliott (May 5, 2008)

Patrick de Caumette @ Sun May 04 said:


> Bruce Richardson @ Sun May 04 said:
> 
> 
> > As long as we're now joking:
> ...





ROFL Pat :D 



I actually have an 'alternative folk' artist coming in next Sat. Where can I get an IR like this toilet? I bet it doesn't sound as crappy as it looks. :roll:


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (May 13, 2008)

Hey Dan and Paul, thanks for the Samplicity tip.

Rob, my guess is that for vocal recordings like this the studio uses units like the Lex 960L and/or the TCE Sys 6000.

My libs have all their presets in pristine quality. 

I would not or even never use a "real hall" IR for something precious like this. Hall IRs are still too much colored by the mics, the speakers (emitters), the positioning of them, the recording approach (gun, balloon, sweep and sweep length).

You can rent a Lex or TCE for 100-150 bucks a day or try IRs from their presets.

Contact me by mail if you want to experiment with a few plates and halls.

(peter at peterroos dot com)

Cheers,

Peter


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## Rob Elliott (May 13, 2008)

Peter Roos @ Tue May 13 said:


> Hey Dan and Paul, thanks for the Samplicity tip.
> 
> Rob, my guess is that for vocal recordings like this the studio uses units like the Lex 960L and/or the TCE Sys 6000.
> 
> ...


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