# Does this sound strange to you? Update 8/30/2010



## h202 (Aug 27, 2010)

Ok, so I'm very hesitant to even write this, but I feel like it would be foolish of me not to get the thoughts/advice of my peers.

So, my mom met this fairly well-known producer/songwriter (worked with really big names) and they started dating. Well so my mom being a typical loving mom told the guy about her son the composer. He listened to some of my music and offered to sign me to a label. He flattered me profusely and offered to help me make my music "come alive," since my production setup is truly lacking. The end of that whole deal was that I told him that I wasn't sure how that would work since I'm more of a composer rather than a performer, plus the gear I use isn't really production worthy.

So anyway, this guy and my mom come to visit my family, and while he is here he tells me that if I ever have any ideas for a song melody, lyrics, whatever, to send them his way. He tells me about this project for a particular artist who will remain unnamed, that she was signed to one of his labels and was having her music redone by them because what she already had "sucked." He then sends me all these lyrics she wrote, and I take this as a full blown opportunity and start writing music for the lyrics. He says he is totally blown away. He said he thought the first compositions he listened to were good, but that these songs were as good as anyone he's ever worked with, which is a monumental thing to say considering who he has worked with. Then he asks me to write all the songs for her CD. Keep in mind, I have never done anything like this before.

So now he wants me to come down to the studio in two months while this artist is cutting her CD and see them producing my music. Of course I, being a complete rookie as far as professional composing goes, am completely beside myself in this situation. He seems to love almost everything I do. I can do almost no wrong. He's now sending me lyrics of his own that he says he could never do anything with, so now I'm working on that too. 

So anyway, the point of all this is to say that concerning money the only thing he's ever said was that I will get some "royalties" and that they will "flow in." He seems like an extremely genuine guy not out to cheat or take advantage of me, but the ambiguity of the money thing bothers me a lot. I once asked him about contracts and he told me not to worry about it, and that he's done a lot of business "on a simple handshake." I even told him about some of the horror stories I've read on this forum and he looked at me with a smirk and said, "don't listen to that stuff."

I haven't made a big deal out of this at all. In fact I've hardly made a peep about it, because I feel like this is a major opportunity to meet people and get my foot in the door as a professional, but on the other hand, I just want to know how to be prepared. Another thing I keep asking myself is, If my music really is that good, then shouldn't he be making sure to secure our relationship with some sort of financial terms? I just don't know...

Have any of you ever experienced anything like this and if so, was the outcome good? Any other advice?


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## RiffWraith (Aug 27, 2010)

*Re: Does this sound strange to you?*



h202 @ Fri Aug 27 said:


> ....that concerning money the only thing he's ever said was that I will get some "royalties" and that they will "flow in."



*RED FUCKING FLAG*

If you said you had a contract, I'd say that you stepped in shit. But I guarantee you that without a signed piece of paper, you are going to get screwed. Not to say he won't throw a few bucks at you, but you WILL get screwed. 

I can't tell you how many times I have said - and heard other people say - when someone refuses to do a contract, there is always a _reason_.

Think about that.

Cheers.


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## Synesthesia (Aug 27, 2010)

Depending on who the guy is, I respectfully disagree with Riff..

Paul McGuinness and U2 never had a contract.

I know many writers who don't have a contract.

If this is a big name artist and your guy is a name producer, his prod co will likely be on a 50/50 with the artist on sales/license income.

I doubt he will be after your writing royalties especially if he is in a relationship with your mother.

I may be wrong, of course, but I have written with loads of people without needing to contract first. Its understood that if one party writes the music and the other writes the lyrics its a straight 50/50 deal. 

It might be worth you casually asking if this is a normal 50 50 split in the writing royalties with the singer at some point.

Sounds like it may be a wonderful opportunity - good luck!


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## José Herring (Aug 27, 2010)

Synesthesia @ Fri Aug 27 said:


> Depending on who the guy is, I respectfully disagree with Riff..
> 
> Paul McGuinness and U2 never had a contract.
> 
> ...



I agree with this. I did a lot of record work early on and I never signed any contracts. I find film people to be more ultra paranoid about this kind of stuff.

I agree with Synthesthesia. If he's bangin' your mom then I doubt he'll screw you too. You already gave away the music without an upfront fee and he's probably thinking that he's getting songs that he doesn't have to pay for while providing a new talent a big break. The big break in your position is more important than anything else. The important thing for you is to get your foot in the door. That he's actually giving you a chance to write songs for the royalty money is a major, major break for a new comer. Most guys have to do free internships for years to get that first notable credit.

Get in there. Make the most of it. If you get a little screwed, oh well. The most important thing is that you let everybody know that you wrote the songs for the album.

The only thing to solidify at this point is to make sure that you get your named listed as composer for the songs so you can get your royalties through your PRO. And make sure you register with ASCAP or BMI.

best,

Jose


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## midphase (Aug 27, 2010)

*Re: Does this sound strange to you?*



h202 @ Fri Aug 27 said:


> So, my mom met this fairly well-known producer/songwriter (worked with really big names) and they started dating.



Don't mean to rain on your parade...but my hunch is that he's just concerned about getting a piece of your mom so he's being ultra nice to her son because that's a great way to get to...well...you know what.

He's probably working with some low grade nobody who is paying handsomely for his services and whom he doesn't give a crap about and that's why he's passing this artist your songs without any critical feedback....no producer worth his weight in salt would do that.

He figures that the resulting album will not get a deal and hence no $$$...so why bother with a contract with you?


Sorry to be such an asshole skeptic about all this...but if it's too good to be true...


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## gsilbers (Aug 27, 2010)

*Re: Does this sound strange to you?*



midphase @ Fri Aug 27 said:


> h202 @ Fri Aug 27 said:
> 
> 
> > So, my mom met this fairly well-known producer/songwriter (worked with really big names) and they started dating.
> ...




+1 i agree but dont see it as a negative. 

itll be a good opportunity to work in that biz and know people and hang out with family and know each other.

i worked with one of the top producers of commercial pop music. this guy had gold records just piled up, any artists u named he has worked with. 

still, he is a producer and even though he composes he hires string arrangers, worked with other composers, worked with the artists that knew somewhat music, 
commercial pop music is another world.

he would get the ideas down but then hired the right people to do the good work. 
and he gave a friend a chance to do a string arrangement and it worked, the guy just came out of berklee. 

most musicians in that world are self tought are have little musical education because that world is about being "real" and pop-culture-y thus things like hiphop and britneyspears stuff is what the biz thinkks folks want. 

so if you have studied and worked doing film music which is waayy more complex.. commercial pop music is a fly by in complexity, its more of being lucky and nailing 
what the consumer wants. and thats an art form on its own. u cant tell me that any U2 song is more coplex musicially than any film score ever done (except 2001 space odysey  its not putting down pop music im just saying its different and if the guys thinks you are good its maybe because u have a good musical background. 

i remember i was recording a grammy winning band and it took about a week to record just the bass for a few songs... overdub madness. 
then a friend invited me to watch a session recording for desperate housewives and i couldn't believe it. a small string section reading the music for the 1st time nailed a 3 minute cue in one take!!! and it was a hard one. and i heard it takes nothing for steve jablonsky to compose those type of cues. the guy is like a factory. 
the point is that there is more bells and whistles in pop music.

in terms of money, just mention it kindly but dont do a fuzz about it, those producers hate negative money vibes with no-bodies/noobies. if its serious stuff then they have agents and lawyers. just go with the wave for this project and see how things go. 
maybe your mom will ask him about that as well


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## José Herring (Aug 27, 2010)

*Re: Does this sound strange to you?*

@ midphase,

I don't think it's too good to be true. I honestly think it's kind of par for the course in the record field. When I first came to LA I wrote a letter to a record producer about doing some work. He called me in for a meeting. Young guy about my age. So I thought no biggy. Next thing you know we're working on an album for LaFace records. No contract and I'm negotiating with the biggest managers and producers in town. Then about a year later I called a composer about a meeting. He called me in and we met. The next day he called me on the phone about doing 12 arrangements for a platinum selling rock band. Again, no contract.


Honestly, I just think the record business works differently and I've never been burned as long as everybody know's what's up from the start. I think when you're starting out you take your chances. If h202 was sitting on three gold records in his past, then I'd be talking differently but since he's just starting out. Better sorry than safe. He's not out any personal money if he does get screwed and if he doesn't he stands to gain a lot.

And, why state the obvious. Of course he's getting the good treatment because the guy's bangin' his mother. And as long as he( record producer) likes what he's gettin' then he should treat the son(h202) well. Unless the guy is a total SOB. But if he is an SOB he'll find a way to screw h202 over even with a contract. 

I kind of see very little downside and a lot of upside. 

Jose


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## poseur (Aug 27, 2010)

*Re: Does this sound strange to you?*

the odds for this being is "too good to be true" are very, very high, imo.

what is the writer's "split", between you & the lyricist?
are these songs copyrighted by you, yet, and/or registered with one of the PRO's?

are you doing the arrangements, and not getting paid for them?

i mean..... dude.
too many red flags.

have a direct & honest chat w/the guy;
prepare yourself by writing down the questions that need answering,
bring those questions to the chat in a written format,
write down his answers.

if your perception tells you to trust the guy,
this needn't be confrontational, at all ---- just informational.
he's doing business, the artist-in-question is doing business,
and you need to admit to yourself (somehow) that you, too, are now doing business.

so?
do it well.
honestly,
with yer eyes open, and _material issues_ up on the table.

d


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## h202 (Aug 27, 2010)

*Re: Does this sound strange to you?*

So I've engaged in correspondence on this issue with the guy, so we'll know more about this soon.

I have to say I was surprised at the positive responses this situation. But having read them and also some other things on the net, it doesn't seem so far fetched, at least in the pop music world, to do these sorts of things on a verbal agreement or even a handshake. Right now, though, I'm just trying to figure out what we're shaking hands on.

As for "PROS" I ignorantly admit that I know nothing about that, so please feel free to educate me on that.

I'll keep everyone posted about what happens.


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## Synesthesia (Aug 28, 2010)

*Re: Does this sound strange to you?*



poseur @ Sat Aug 28 said:


> the odds for this being is "too good to be true" are very, very high, imo.
> 
> are you doing the arrangements, and not getting paid for them?
> 
> ...




erm.. d, are you suggesting he should get paid for arranging his own songs?

Jose - your experience pretty much matches mine in the record field.

cheers,

Paul


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## reddognoyz (Aug 28, 2010)

*Re: Does this sound strange to you?*

make sure you are getting a significant percentage of the songwriters share. If the artist is BIG, they will be the selling factor for the songs, not your compositions no matter how great they are, so I wouldn't be suprised if they want a large portion of the credit. Make sure you have a decent chunk though. 

There has to be paperwork involved, otherwise you will be totally screwed. It ò    ãzà    ãzá    ãzâ    ãzã    ãzä    ãzå    ãzæ    ãzç    ãzè    ãzé    ãzê    ãzë    ãzì    ãzí    ãzî    ãzï    ãzð    ãzñ    ãzò    ãzó    ãzô    ãzõ    ãzö ‚   ãz÷ ‚   ãzø ‚   ãzù ‚   ãzú ‚   ãzû ‚   ãzü ‚   ãzý ‚   ãzþ ‚   ãzÿ ‚   ã{  ‚   ã{ ‚   ã{ ‚   ã{ ‚   ã{ ‚   ã{ ‚   ã{ ‚   ã{ ‚   ã{ ‚   ã{	 ‚   ã{
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## midphase (Aug 28, 2010)

I think you all's eagerness to work for a spit and a handshake is (sorry to say) ridiculous and looking for trouble. Do you think Jay Z works like that? You think Chris Lord-Alge works like that? If so it's no wonder that the record industry is so riddled with tons of lawsuits and people getting screwed over.

While I admit I don't have the largest amount of years working on records, the few that I did were meticulously contracted even when I was in my early 20's fresh out of school.


I'm not saying this guy doesn't mean well...perhaps he's genuinely wanting you to get work and succeed....all I'm saying is that it all smells so amateurish (even if the guy himself has worked with big names).


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## José Herring (Aug 28, 2010)

*Re: Does this sound strange to you?*



h202 @ Sat Aug 28 said:


> So I'm not sure if he's giving me the runaround or not, but I asked him what my royalty percentages would be. Maybe the question got confused or lost in the paragraphs of the other things I wrote, because he replied with how it depends on the success of the artist.
> 
> I've been trying to be careful to communicate an anti-greedy attitude in this. Maybe that's a mistake. I just want him to know that I appreciate the opportunity, yet, I still need to know these formal details right?
> 
> So anyway, I just sent him another email asking him point blank what the split is and what the actual cents per song I would be receiving, regardless of the album's success. (These details have to be agreed upon regardless of success, correct?) There's no other way to interpret or misunderstand this email, so we will see his response.



Nah you're kind of missing the point. You've already giving up the songs so there is no split for you. Your money is coming from royalties which will be collected by radio play of the songs you compose. There's no money coming from his pocket to you. That's why he doesn't feel the need for a contract. There's no money coming from him thus no need for a contract.

Email him again and say precisely this: " For the purposes of registering the songs with my PRO I'm assuming that I'll be listed as the composer/writer for all songs. Also, I'd like to know if I'm entitled to any of the publishing royalties".

Also to be polite I would apologize for your earlier confusing emails saying that you're new to the business and are trying to just figure out how you can make money from the generous opportunity, ect.... blah, blah, blah.

Good luck,

Jose


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## kid-surf (Aug 28, 2010)

*Re: Does this sound strange to you?*

I agree with Kays' and D's suspicions and skepticism...but also Jose's thoughts on listings and politeness. You always want to say "fvck you" with a smile in this business.

QUESTION: How ***RECENT*** are this dude's big name clients? Thing is, many 'has beens' work for years on the fringe waving around their totally outdated discography (or films, or tv shows, etc). Just because someone was "the man" at one time does not still mean they are the man. Plenty of people who once produced hit records or hit films/tv shows can't their phone calls returned in the industry at present. Yet if you read their credits (as a noob) it would all look so very impressive...when the fact of the matter is that they are no longer "in the biz", not for real.

That's probably THE most important factor in all of this: Is this dude HOT right NOW - or - did he USED TO BE hot?

Sign me up as very skeptical. A guy after YOUR best interest wold be very open about all of this...he'd walk you through every step answer every question. My hunch is that this guy is trying to double dip, boink your mom AND get some free work out of it...I'm betting he's not planning on sticking around long. Hey, music people are known for being pigs, and for a reason.

You and your moms' should watch each other's backs...just say'n...

At the same time, ride this donkey as far as it can take you. But never forget that you have to watch out for you. People love to get shit fro FREE in this business. They just do. They also love to take credit. They just do.


Good luck!


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## poseur (Aug 29, 2010)

*Re: Does this sound strange to you?*



kid-surf @ Sat Aug 28 said:


> I agree with Kays' and D's suspicions and skepticism...but also Jose's thoughts on listings and politeness. You always want to say "fvck you" with a smile in this business.



of course, i didn't suggest anything other than being polite;
this is business, about which our protagonist (OP) knows not-so-much:
but, it's business:
the business of pre-emptively his rights, his copyrights,
the potential of his future & that of his family.
business can be conducted well,
when there's an effort made towards communication between parties becoming clear & distinct.

so, i think we agree, all around.

the biggest problem, here, as i see it?

our OP has no agreement in place, vis à vis THE COMPOSERS' AGREEMENT,
and is unaware of copy right "standards" & the *P*erforming *R*ights' *O*rganisations, etc.

this?
this _could become a grievous error_,
unfortunately one that composers & writers make over & over & over, again.
ime.

beyond the body of my other work (my personal music, my scores),
i'm fortunate enough to have co-written at least one very popular & frequently licensed hit,
whichall have been extremely meaningful to my life-in-general.
with clear & precise agreements, in regards to the cooperation of the writers, in place.

the OP is wise to ask questions, but imo,
surely ought to continue asking!

the questions posed to the proò â   ã•ç â   ã•è â   ã•é â   ã•ê â   ã•ë â   ã•ì â   ã•í â   ã•î â   ã•ï â   ã•ð â   ã•ñ â   ã•ò â   ã•ó â   ã•ô â   ã•õ â   ã•ö â   ã•÷ â   ã•ø â   ã•ù â   ã•ú â   ã•û â   ã•ü â   ã•ý â   ã•þ â   ã•ÿ â   ã–  â   ã– â   ã– â   ã– â   ã– â   ã– â   ã– â   ã– â   ã– â   ã–	 â   ã–
 â   ã– â   ã– â   ã–  â   ã– â   ã– â   ã– â


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## jlb (Aug 29, 2010)

*Re: Does this sound strange to you?*

Don't trust ANYONE, and get yourself a good music lawyer

jlb


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## Stephen Baysted (Aug 29, 2010)

*Re: Does this sound strange to you?*

Always wise to be skeptical and indeed on your look out for people willing to fleece you, however, I'd also agree with Paul (Synesthesia) in that contracts are not always the norm; for example, I've done loads of adverts for an agent and never had a written contract. I've always been (handsomely) paid, fully credited and retained copyright/writer's share etc for PRS. It's not uncommon at all.

But, like I said, better to be safe than sorry as long as you don't blow the gig. 

Cheers

Stephen


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## JohnG (Aug 29, 2010)

*Re: Does this sound strange to you?*

contracts are seen a bit differently in the UK at least in my experience.

For example, a contract for the same purpose in England sometimes is literally 1/4 as long.

Also, in general, the notion that one needs a contract at all in the UK can be regarded as faintly insulting, so perhaps there is some vague taint associated with the whole thing that makes it a slightly more delicate issue.

Either way, I thought there were ASCAP and BMI standard songwriters' agreements posted on their websites -- I think there were long ago. They might be useful in the present circumstance.


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## jleckie (Aug 29, 2010)

An opportunity is an opportunity. I would say run with it! And good luck!


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## kid-surf (Aug 29, 2010)

*Re: Does this sound strange to you?*

An opportunity is only an opportunity if it's an opportunity. If I had a grain of sand for every time someone promised me an opportunity I'd have my own island.

Being too eager is a great way to make sure you never face real opportunities. That's why we have agents and managers...to protect us from ourselves. 

@ D - I hear u, wasn't intending to imply that you did not feel that way. (does that sentence make any sense? I'm a little sleepy after too much food and drink)


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## h202 (Aug 30, 2010)

*Re: Does this sound strange to you?*

So I had a chat with the producer. Myself and the artist will be doing a 50/50 split (she wrote the lyrics) with the standard breakdown of the 9.1 cents divided accordingly. There will be air play and publishing royalties. I do not sell the music, but license it. The songs will all be registered under BMI copyrighted under my name and the agreed upon royalty divisions entered accordingly.

I may have missed one or two other things, but the main thing I came away with was that he's not out to cheat me, get music for free, or anything like that. This is a fellow who has been in the industry for over thirty years. Like I said he's pretty well known and well-respected so his reputation is at stake. There's just too much accountability here. He's an executive for a label that has thousands of artists. He's produced many albums. Ultimately I'm saying that if he was known for cheating folks, he should already have a reputation as such.

So I really don't have a choice. I'm skeptical too, but all signs are positive, and this could be a big break for me.

I'll keep this thread updated since I'm sure you are all curious how this turns out. I know I would be. :D


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## kid-surf (Aug 30, 2010)

> I may have missed one or two other things, but the main thing I came away with was that he's not out to cheat me, get music for free, or anything like that.



Still doesn't mean it can't happen. Just means the intent may not be there. These situations are the reason I'm glad I don't have to act as my own agent/lawyer. I just talk about the work [creative aspects only], we never talk numbers. In fact nether side does, it's mostly handled by 'business affairs' on both sides.



> This is a fellow who has been in the industry for over thirty years. Like I said he's pretty well known and well-respected so his reputation is at stake. There's just too much accountability here.



That part is a bit of a myth. People get screwed w/u anyone breaking laws.



> He's an executive for a label that has thousands of artists.



Who is their biggest client [rhetorical question designed to help you gauge their heat]?



> He's produced many albums.



How many of them where hits - and - released in the last 5 years [rhetorical question designed to help you gauge their heat]?



> Ultimately I'm saying that if he was known for cheating folks, he should already have a reputation as such.



Few people are 'known' for cheating people, otherwise they would have a hard time cheating people [general, rhetorical statement] 



> So I really don't have a choice. I'm skeptical too, but all signs are positive, and this could be a big break for me.



You always have a choice. Put that thought out of your head or you will become someone's prey at some point. It may be true that this is your big break, it's too soon to know that. Once you cash a check or get incoming calls, that's a pretty good indication of something.



> I'll keep this thread updated since I'm sure you are all curious how this turns out. I know I would be. :D



Believe it or not, this is status quo in Hollywood (you're basically writing on speculation at present). Not that I don't wish you the very best in this venture, I do. This is another way of saying, your successes or failures are most important to YOU.  So, act as your own agent/manager/lawyer until you have one.

Good luck!


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## gsilbers (Aug 30, 2010)

*Re: Does this sound strange to you?*



h202 @ Mon Aug 30 said:


> So I had a chat with the producer. Myself and the artist will be doing a 50/50 split (she wrote the lyrics) with the standard breakdown of the 9.1 cents divided accordingly. There will be air play and publishing royalties. I do not sell the music, but license it. The songs will all be registered under BMI copyrighted under my name and the agreed upon royalty divisions entered accordingly.
> 
> I may have missed one or two other things, but the main thing I came away with was that he's not out to cheat me, get music for free, or anything like that. This is a fellow who has been in the industry for over thirty years. Like I said he's pretty well known and well-respected so his reputation is at stake. There's just too much accountability here. He's an executive for a label that has thousands of artists. He's produced many albums. Ultimately I'm saying that if he was known for cheating folks, he should already have a reputation as such.
> 
> ...



sounds great! dont think its going to be your big break, but if its positive youll get another gig and another and so on to a comfortable level. and with the way the music biz is going, youll need a lot of luck!. dont get star studded hollywwood style, 
there are a lot of stories like your that didnt go anywhere or that jusst went on to another gig and another etc. just keep up the positive spirit. 

but nice job and licensing the song. you can now also use it to place it on TV and films right? thats the bet deal. even in filmscoring if you can get away w it. 

so , im a little confused on whats the cut for your mother's boyfriend who is helping you out.


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## h202 (Aug 31, 2010)

@gsilbers

The guy I'm working with is the producer. He will receive the producer's cut. It's independent from what I'm getting for composing all the songs in the album.

If this gets me started into regular projects, then it is personally a big break for me -- Since as others have already pointed out, getting in the biz is much more difficult to do without having good connections.

I'm not making any bets that this will launch me into composer stardom. I've lived long enough to know better. 

All I really want is to compose music for a living. Nothing more, nothing less. 

@kid-surf

Reputation is timeless, in all aspects of life. But I would agree that some people are good at faking a certain reputation.

Yes, I do epistemologically have a choice, but the information we have learned from other's experiences in this thread suggest I should continue, which in my mind means I have no choice.

I don't have the liberty to disclose any specific details about who I'm working with. Wish I could share, but I can't. Sorry.


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## poseur (Aug 31, 2010)

fwiw:
is there the _assumption_ that you'll also be splitting the publishing rights
with the lyricist, 50/50?
have publishing rights been discussed?

that's important for you to know;
all of it is, in fact, important to make-clear,
communicating well with the potential co-owner(s) of your music,
& then validating your agreement in some material way.

it could make the difference between dinner-for-one, dinner-for-two, or no-dinner,
a community college for yr kids, the colleges-of-their-choice, or loans,
paying half yr bills or all (or none) of them.
just sayin'!

clarity in communication can be key,
especially where "shares" are concerned.....
and, it's your responsibility (to yourself, yr family, yr work, etc) to know
which are the primary points you'll need to be distinct & clear, first for yourself.....
but, that's obvious, i guess.
in this?
do not expect a thread-posting on the 'net to satisfy yr need for complete information:
dangerous game, that.

many are those who get "screwed" over copyright & authorship
by no-one evil nor malicious,
but by a simple lack of clarity communicated (or, not) between parties concerned.
some get royally screwed,
simply owing to not having investigated (w/due diligence) the system & its "norms".

that said?
hope it goes well!
enjoy it.

best,
d


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## kid-surf (Aug 31, 2010)

I suspect you aren't understanding a few things. 

Not sure what you mean by "reputation is timeless, in all aspects of life." If you mean to imply that someone who once was known as being a star producer is always a regarded as a star producer, not true, unless it still is true. Someone can have a great rep for past accomplishments without being "in play" [i.e. important] in the industry sense - even though they may still be working in some capacity. Depends...

Choice: as in looking out for your own best interest and employing due diligence like D suggested previously, because nobody is there to do that for you presently. Producers are not wired to look out for your best interest [ask a friend in the business]. They look out for their best interest first and foremost, which is not always in line with your best interest. So on and so forth, that's why we have agents and lawyers - to make sure someone is looking out for our best interest where it counts most...the fine print.

I'm not interested in knowing who your guy is...my comments, like I said, where rhetorical. No need to apologize.

I wouldn't be pointing out these aspects to someone totally in the know. However, I've heard enough stories of people being enamored by folks who aren't really in play, but who absolutely used to be. We, here, have no way of knowing if this guy is still in play or not, that's for you to determine. We can only offer blind advice based on cryptic incomplete info. And for FREE.


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## adg21 (Sep 21, 2010)

@ poseur I'd love to know what the frequently licensed hit you co-wrote was if you can/wouldn't mind disclosing?


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## Mike Greene (Sep 21, 2010)

Since adg21 reopened the topic, I'll chime in late as well.

This sounds like a great opportunity and I'd jump in with both feet. Without contracts. Yes, *without* contracts.

Songwriters generally don't get paid upfront in the record business, so there's really nothing good that a contract would do for you. You *already* own everything you do, including your publishing share, so it's not like a contract gives you ownership or anything. All that a contract would do is bind you to allowing them to use your music at some predetermined terms. It won't *obligate* them to use your music. So why have a contract now?

Come to think of it, I've done my share of records here and I can't recall songwriters ever having contracts ahead of time. Maybe there are situations where it does happen if a songwriter has a huge amount of clout, but it's never happened here. People cowrite on spec with artists all the time. That's how it's done.

Since this looks like a co-writing situation, it's worth knowing that until you sign a contract, you own an equal share of the song. So they can't say you only wrote 10%. that's because U.S. copyright law states that until a contract to the contrary is signed, each co-writer owns the song equally, no matter what their contribution. So you're safe there.

You also own your publishing. You don't sign a contract to _keep_ your publishing. You only sign a contract to give it away. So don't tempt him by asking for one.

By the way, I should warn you that it does sometimes happen in these situations that you might have to give up the publishers share, or half the publisher's share, if you want them to use your song. Kinda like how the studios always take our publishing when we write for film or TV. That varies from situation to situation, but there's nothing you can do ahead of time to prevent it, so don't bring it up now. Wait until he's fallen in love with your songs (and your mom's lasagna!) at which time you'll have more clout.

Good luck with this!


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## Dave Connor (Sep 21, 2010)

I deleted my little joke there.

Generally if you are the author of something and would have no trouble proving it, you are okay on that part of the equation. You would simply have to review that you are properly credited on ALL pertinent legal documents. This obviously should be well understood before any one else enters into any contractual agreements with anything you have authored. Same goes for publishing. So you can say "Sure I'm game, just let me see all the paperwork before anything is carved in stone." Now the good fellow is on the hook with you personally if any agreements are signed without your approval.

You should become an affiliate with BMI or ASCAP if you haven't. If it's a royalty only situation than all that paperwork needs to be in order with all parties as well. You should of course be credited on CD's and any other media which is another thing to look out for.


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