# VI Control Counterpoint study group (J. J. Fux book)



## cadalac (Jul 11, 2014)

Hello all,

Would anyone be interested in doing a counterpoint study group based on Joseph Fux's famous book: Gradus ad Parnassum?

This book is a classic written in 1725 and is said to have been studied by Mozart, Beethoven and Hayden. It's also public domain.  

I thought a study group would be beneficial because we could share our ideas on the counterpoint exercises and discuss parts of the book that may be ambiguous or difficult to understand.

As for the format, I was thinking maybe a new thread for each of the 15 chapters (one a week or something), but I'm open to other ideas.

Is anyone interested?


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## Izolus (Jul 11, 2014)

You can definitely colour me interested.

I'm always up for a chance to learn, 'specially since it's public domain .


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## synergy543 (Jul 11, 2014)

A study group is a great idea. Good luck.


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## cadalac (Jul 11, 2014)

*Izolus*: Glad your interested, I listened to some of your music and noticed you often use a baseline with a melody, so you might find counterpoint useful. o=< 

*synergy543:* Thanks for suggesting an alternate available book. Two things came to me though when I looked through it First, I would estimate that it would take roughly 6 months to get through it. A little heavy for me personally (I think we might be able to do Gradus ad Parnassum in roughly two). Second, I personally like to focus on one thing at a time when I'm learning. But if the majority prefer this or another book, that's fine with me. o 

I do agree though that anyone who studies counterpoint should know at least the basics of harmony.


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## Izolus (Jul 11, 2014)

Thank you very much for listening to some of my music, all opinions are appreciated .

In terms of which book, I'm good with either. However I agree that the Stewert MacPherson book may be a little too long for the group study.

Ultimately I'm happy to learn anything .


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## ModalRealist (Jul 11, 2014)

I'd be interested in this. Very happy to use the Fux text.


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## Peter Alexander (Jul 11, 2014)

I have a new translation out called Counterpoint by Fux: The Instant Composer.


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## Peter Alexander (Jul 11, 2014)

cadalac @ Fri Jul 11 said:


> *Izolus*: Glad your interested, I listened to some of your music and noticed you often use a baseline with a melody, so you might find counterpoint useful. o=<
> 
> *synergy543:* Thanks for suggesting an alternate available book. Two things came to me though when I looked through it First, I would estimate that it would take roughly 6 months to get through it. A little heavy for me personally (I think we might be able to do Gradus ad Parnassum in roughly two). Second, I personally like to focus on one thing at a time when I'm learning. But if the majority prefer this or another book, that's fine with me. o
> 
> ...



This book is still under copyright and is not PD. If you download it you're bootlegging it.


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## cadalac (Jul 12, 2014)

Hi Peter, Thanks for your input. I removed the link to copyrighted version.

Surprisingly I wasn't able to find a public domain text in English. Should we just purchase the text or look for something else in the public domain? I'd vote for purchasing the book.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Study-Counterpoint-Johann-Joseph-Fux/dp/0393002772/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1405177940&sr=1-1&keywords=counterpoint (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Study-Counterpo ... unterpoint)


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## Rob (Jul 12, 2014)

On IMSLP there are the public domain French, German and latin versions, if you know the languages...


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## Peter Alexander (Jul 12, 2014)

cadalac @ Sat Jul 12 said:


> Hi Peter, Thanks for your input. I removed the link to copyrighted version.
> 
> Surprisingly I wasn't able to find a public domain text in English. Should we just purchase the text or look for something else in the public domain? I'd vote for purchasing the book.
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Study-Counterpoint-Johann-Joseph-Fux/dp/0393002772/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1405177940&sr=1-1&keywords=counterpoint (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Study-Counterpo ... unterpoint)



There isn't one. Dr. Mann's copyrights passed to his children and the book is now published by Dover (I believe). 

Mine is also available, though different from Dr. Mann's in that I show you that Fux's training is how to write in each mode.


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## ModalRealist (Jul 12, 2014)

Since I already own a printed copy of Mann's translation, my vote goes for using that.


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## Izolus (Jul 12, 2014)

I'm okay with purchasing a copy as well, so long as there's some time for it to get delivered .


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## Peter Alexander (Jul 12, 2014)

All our stuff is download and I also have a version with video lectures.


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## Izolus (Jul 13, 2014)

Ooh, now that is a selling point .

Cool, I'm good with this then .


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## cadalac (Jul 13, 2014)

Perfect. I think I'll start with Mann's text and buy Peter's course later to compare notes and fine tune my skills.

When everyone has a text we can start. (I can temporarily use the french text if my book doesn't come fast.)

Also if we're only 3 we might consider doing the group by PM or email to avoid clogging to forum.


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## clarkus (Jul 13, 2014)

I'm coming to the table late. I can order the book. Could you inform me via personal message if you take this off the regular forum posts? 

Also wondering how you are planning to do this. 

Many ways to go, but the easiest ( and thus, perhaps most likely to succeed) is simply to give everyone a chapter & assignment with a reasonable length of time to complete each of those. If anyone wants to post their music in some fashion, we could do so, or there could be discussion of questions that come up.

But my personal vote would be to use the mild pressure exerted by having this be group-oriented to keep us moving ahead, and not to try to emulate an online course.

Unless you already have some format set up to facilitate sharing of work & so on.

Personally, for me, I'd likely work with pencil @ the piano. Playing all the exercises into MIDI to share / discuss might get a bit onerous giving everything else I'm doing.

But that's just my opinion.

Studying counterpoint is a great idea.

thanks - Clark


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## ModalRealist (Jul 13, 2014)

I agree with Clarkus about format. I suggest that we emulate the Collaborative Learning Project threads that darthmorphling used to run. So: whoever "leads" the group (cadalac, if you're willing?) starts a thread for that fortnight (or whatever time period) which specifies what we're reading, and exactly what exercises we'll all do and post. Then we all go off and read, do the exercises, and post the results (for counterpoint, probably notation - whether computer or hand-written - and accompanying audio).


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## spoon (Jul 13, 2014)

I'd like to join, please.
I am new to counterpoint though, if that's ok?

Marco


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## Izolus (Jul 13, 2014)

I quite like ModalRealist's suggestion for how this is organised. I think it'll be best to do this on the thread (if we're allowed ofc ) because it's easier to communicate with each other.

Also I'll make sure that if there's any changes to the organisation of this that everyone is contacted. I've gotta lot of free time so I'm cool with it .


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## JimmyPoppa (Jul 14, 2014)

Hello,

I would also be interested in this. I ordered the book and it should arrive on Wednesday.

Be Well,

Jimmy


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## clarkus (Jul 14, 2014)

Cadalac, can you clarify what you are thinking as far as how to do this / how you'd like to proceed, step-by-step. A few of us here (like me) are suggesting a simple "do the assignment in a reasonable period of time" approach.

When you say "Do the group by PM or e-mail" I am wondering if you imagine more an online class approach. With time-zone differences, people's schedules & so on, I don't think that will fly. I, for example, am off for two weeks as of July 29.

But I AM into it. 

Maybe you could lay out what you had in mind?


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## cadalac (Jul 15, 2014)

Welcome clarkus, spoon, Jimmy Poppa. Thanks for joining us.

Clarkus, it seems the majority like what you proposed, so we can have the study group run openly on the forum. We can also operate similarly to the collaboration project threads.

Like you I'm not wanting this to be an "online course". I think the focus here should be on quality discussions and I want everyone to get the most out of the group setting. 

I also agree that working with notation will be the most efficient way. Though audio could also be useful sometimes, as someone might be working within the wrong octaves or something. That way the group could help. Also towards the end people might be wanting to share their work.

As for the format of the group, I was thinking basically of doing it the way ModalRealist mentioned. (And no I don't mind leading the group.)


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## cadalac (Jul 15, 2014)

Just a note for everyone who has ordered the book: The author does the exercises for voices. While you wait for your books to come in, you may want to get familiar with the 4 clefs used, as well as human voice ranges etc.

PS. sorry for my delayed response. I was out of town for a bit.


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## synergy543 (Jul 15, 2014)

cadalac @ Tue Jul 15 said:


> I also agree that working with notation will be the most efficient way. Though audio could also be useful sometimes, as someone might we working within the wrong octaves or something. That way the group could help. Also towards the end people might be wanting to share their work.



Check out *Noteflight.com?* Its an excellent way for groups to collaborate using music notation. 
And the price is right (free).


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## clarkus (Jul 16, 2014)

Not that this is going to break anyone's heart, but I think on reflection I'm not going to get aboard. It has to do with the Fux book and the exercises involving tenor & alto clef. I don't read tenor & alto clef, and at this stage in my life I'm not going to learn.

I went through the Piston counterpoint book a few years ago with a pno. player friend, where most of the examples are in grand staff. If I were setting this up, I'd probably suggest that text (we did not do all the exercises & I recognize I could get more from the book, which is quite well laid out). But I don't want to sabotage your fun.

The "clefs" thing is a holdover from an era when tenors sang in tenor clef and altos sang in alto clef. Of course, violas read alto clef, and the high notes in bassoon still employ tenor, so it is a great skill to have from the POV of reading orchestra scores. I'm always taking that extra minute to count the staff lines. But I've got a "How many hours in the day" problem.

Anyway, carry on, stalwart souls!


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## ModalRealist (Jul 16, 2014)

Clarkus, just to let you know, the Fux book doesn't actually have "exercises" in it that one does oneself. It's written as a dialogue between Aloysius, a master musician, and Josephus, his student. The music printed in the book are examples of Aloysius' instruction and Josephus' own work. So, while I guess reading alto and tenor clefs would improve your experience of the book, it's hardly necessary: everything is spelt out by the dialogue itself. I'm pretty sure most of it would make perfect sense. The staves even have the numeric interval between counterpointed notes indicated on them!


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## cadalac (Jul 16, 2014)

Should we start the discussion for chapter one next week? I'm Still waiting for my book. :cry: 

Also could everyone send me a PM if you've ordered the book and are joining the group?


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## MA-Simon (Jul 18, 2014)

:lol: I am so glad I did not have to call _my_ teacher: "Venerable Master"


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## clarkus (Jul 18, 2014)

Hi, Modal Realist - I have to gently disagree that the examples aren't important.

As mentioned, I went through the Walter Piston book on Counterpoint with a friend from one end to another. The examples in any given book are vital. You can describe music and you can lay out rules, but seeing and hearing well-chosen examples of work executed ... well, let's just say it's a really good idea. "Cross-relation" stays in my mind as one concept that I really had trouble getting, but seeing and hearing examples of it made it clear, and useful. All manner of embellishments, suspension, anticipation & so on, need to be seen at work in real music for their full impact & potential to be experienced. There are even specific composer's tricks that that you can pick up from Chopin, Faure, etc.

I think getting conversant with tenor & alto clef is a really good idea, by the way. It's just not what I need to do right now.

Soldier on.


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## ModalRealist (Jul 18, 2014)

clarkus @ Fri Jul 18 said:


> I think getting conversant with tenor & alto clef is a really good idea, by the way. It's just not what I need to do right now.



Cool. Flicking through the book, most of the exercises actually seem to be in Treble and Bass clef... although they also have the tenor/alto clef sign written to the left as well... which is confusing me, because reading the pitches off the staves, it makes sense if the treble and bass clefs are correct (but then I'm not sure what the tenor/alto clef sign is doing hovering around). Oh well! I guess that's exactly what this group will be for figuring out!


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## cadalac (Jul 18, 2014)

I think I got it. All exercises are in the treble clef (with the occasional base clef). The C-clefs before only indicate the octaves. So we actually won't need to learn new clefs. Sorry for the misinformation.


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