# Nothing to do with Michael Jackson



## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 30, 2005)

> Scientology in 1952 then proved that man was a soul with conclusive evidence. Whether you believe that or not doesn't really make a difference. It's true or not true and there's a lot of evidence in Scietology that man is a composite of three different things. 1) His soul or life force reigns as the chief awareness unit. 2) Then this soul uses a mind which surounds and is contained in the body. These things are three seperate things that interrelate in this universe.



How can one possibly proove that or anything else of a spiritual nature? It's all how you decide to look at it, isn't it?

The big objection I have to the Christian right is their idea that nobody else can be equally right - either Christ is the "one way" or he's not, and since he is, everyone else is wrong. To me that's nursery school philosophy!

I'm not putting down Scientology or saying it's equally inflexible, because I know nothing about it. But a lot of people don't believe there's any difference between the three things you mention. It's absolutely impossible to "prove" who's right, any more than you can "prove" that any spiritual belief is right or wrong. That's the nature of spiritual things.

By the way, we absolutely are animals. Any biologist can prove that. What's more, we're not all that much more complicated than some animals. Koko the gorilla is supposed to have an IQ of about 90!


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## Scott Rogers (Jun 30, 2005)

..........


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## Ed (Jun 30, 2005)

Are there any bad points to Scientology. A dark side?

A quick glance at their website shows them to be more of a spiritual thing a bit like Taoism. Didnt see much of a problem with it. 

I seem to remember reading that the founder invented it to make money,and that the difference between a cult and a religion was how many people followed it. I wonder where I saw those quotes. Could probably find it on google if I werent so lazy. :D 

Ed


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## José Herring (Jun 30, 2005)

I'm almost dreading coming here these days. It's like everytime I think I'm out I get pulled back in again!!! :lol: 

There's another argument for putting your DAW on a computer seperate from the internet!

No all joking aside. It could get very lengthy in explaining this. 

As far as proof. There is. Please be sure that i'm not asking you to believe anything. Scientology isn't that kind of religion. Check the MJ thread to an article called personal integrity. You can be a scientologist and not "believe" anything. I really don't. Never really have. I think that people lump all religions together. There is no belief system in Scientology and nobody has ever been kicked out for not believing something in Scientology. 

Scientology mostly consist of a set of tools that a person can use to live better with himself, his environment and with others. That's what it is. And, through those tools you can discover what's true for you.

It's what works. That's what's important and the better something works the more true it is.

So as to move off the realm of the spirit I'll just stick to the body for right now.

The first study that lead to Scientology was Dianetics. In Dianetics the author did an experiment. That experiment involved some living cells. In this experiment he discovered that cells had an intelligence. And, he then concluded that that intelligence was geared towards one thing....Survival. 

With that as the motivating principle of life a scale was made up. At the top of the scale you have higher emotions (or life force) such as enthusiasm and cheerfulness. At these states life is easier and much more fulfilling. At the bottom you have death. The trust of survival as away from death and towards higher degrees of livingness which in my opinion is measured in terms the amount of happiness one is cabable of--IMO. People alive are on a scale somewhere in between Death and higher levels of happiness.

So, this survival force is what animates a body. Just above dead you have a state called Apathy. This state is close to death and is characterized by an inability of a person to feel or perceive much of anything. That's your guy that is kind of dull and dead and woodened. Just above apathy you have various fear bands. Those are the bands that the person is alive but is in some state of anxiety, fear, ext.( just bellow this is grief and depression btw)

Just above fear is hate. Just above hate are antagonistic people. Just above that is content. Then you get into higher life bands of emotion, cheerfull, interest and enthusiasm.

So just within the living organism itself is various bands of life.

How that ties into the spirit we'll have to leave it at that for now.

Best way to learn is to buy and read Dianetics and then read Fundamentals of Thought by L. Ron Hubbard. 

That way you can decide for yourself with out even visiting a church whether or not it makes sense to you. If not, then okay. 
But just remember just because you don't think so doesn't mean it's not true.

To dead body it can perceive living people. To somebody in apathy they can't perceive that somebody could actually have feelings and tend to discount that. To people that are in a hate band they can't perceive that somebody could actually love.

People low on the scale have a certain reality. People higher on the scale have a different reality.

I personally have a reality that extends quite a bit beyond what people consider to be normal so I don't share it much anymore. Haven't really shared much of what I can do with anybody. Though people do notice it time to time and look at me funny.

Ah, maybe someday I'll let people in on my secret on how I discovered that the spirit is seperate from the body. But, not today.

Jose :lol:


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## gamalataki (Jun 30, 2005)

I've got a question for you Scientologists. How do you get off the mailing and phone lists?? Eleven years ago I saw a flyer advertising Mark Isham giving a speech on film music. I had just moved to LA and had to get directions to a place called the CELEBRITY CENTRE (I think). In order to get in I had to give my name, address and phone number. I didn't think anything of it at the time, but despite repeated requests both in writing and by phone, they will not stop sending me catelogs with price lists attached and advertisments for everything they host. I once moved and left no forwarding address, but they still keep coming. Only every once in a while will I notice "Church of Scientology" on my caller ID, but never a message. I've known people who practice Scientology and I've never had a bad experience with them or had any of them preach to me, so I have no problem if that's your faith, but how do I get off their contact list.
BTW, from what I've read about the Church, it seems to be a common sense approach to self awareness and self exploration for life, which mirrors a lot of my personal philosophys. Fortunately I don't need someone else to point this out for me.


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## José Herring (Jun 30, 2005)

Ed said:


> Are there any bad points to Scientology. A dark side?
> 
> A quick glance at their website shows them to be more of a spiritual thing a bit like Taoism. Didnt see much of a problem with it.
> 
> ...



Ah man, sucked in again. Dude's I gotta work. The Winkle producer is coming over tomorrow. ahhhh...right. Winkle. Let's put it in perspective.

Yeah you're right ED. Scientology is founded in studies in eastern religions. Tao te Tching and Buddhism are at it's root. The major difference is that there's an exact path so that anybody can become and Bohdi or spiritually enlightened one or in Scientology it's called a clear.

I'm almost to Clear. Life is different as you move up to clear. Easier to understand. Better communication able to have more love for things and people. Emotionally you feel better. Mind works quicker, ect. Those are some of things that I experienced.

The difference between the Tao and Buddha is that not everybody will reach Bodhi. In scientology everybody can.

As far as a dark side, I haven't really seen it. It's a tough game. It cost money as it takes about 4 staff members to help one person go to Clear. There's a lot of work involved and there's not a lot of time left. Society is degenerating at an alarming rate and so we have to move fast to save it. And, we're moving in the face of some pretty hard opposition from people that make a lot of money hurting others.

Dark side. No. Intense side. Ooooooh Yeah!!!

Now that I'm no longer in hiding I'm free to be myself. Oh, oh. Watch out!!! :o And, you thought that Tom Cruise was over the top. OOOweee you ain't seen nothin' yet baby.

Jose :lol:


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## José Herring (Jun 30, 2005)

gamalataki said:


> I've got a question for you Scientologists. How do you get off the mailing and phone lists?? Eleven years ago I saw a flyer advertising Mark Isham giving a speech on film music. I had just moved to LA and had to get directions to a place called the CELEBRITY CENTRE (I think). In order to get in I had to give my name, address and phone number. I didn't think anything of it at the time, but despite repeated requests both in writing and by phone, they will not stop sending me catelogs with price lists attached and advertisments for everything they host. I once moved and left no forwarding address, but they still keep coming. Only every once in a while will I notice "Church of Scientology" on my caller ID, but never a message. I've known people who practice Scientology and I've never had a bad experience with them or had any of them preach to me, so I have no problem if that's your faith, but how do I get off their contact list.
> BTW, from what I've read about the Church, it seems to be a common sense approach to self awareness and self exploration for life, which mirrors a lot of my personal philosophys. Fortunately I don't need someone else to point this out for me.



Can't answer that. I'm on the mailing list too. I once went in to Celebrity Center and asked for them to remove me from the phone list. They did.

That's the best that I can do.

BTW, Scientology is much more than a common sense approach to self exploration. You should check out a book or two.


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## gamalataki (Jun 30, 2005)

josejherring said:


> Can't answer that. I'm on the mailing list too. I once went in to Celebrity Center and asked for them to remove me from the phone list. They did.
> 
> That's the best that I can do.
> 
> BTW, Scientology is much more than a common sense approach to self exploration. You should check out a book or two.



Thanks Jose. Common maybe wasn't the right word, but from what I've read and heard, I've practiced a lot of the Scientology lessons throughout my life. Not without mistakes and trial and error though. I'm a seeker and am always looking for ways to improve.

I have recently connected the Internet to my DAW and yes it's distracting, if not a downright creativity killer.


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## Ed (Jun 30, 2005)

josejherring said:


> Yeah you're right ED. Scientology is founded in studies in eastern religions. Tao te Tching and Buddhism are at it's root. The major difference is that there's an exact path so that anybody can become and Bohdi or spiritually enlightened one or in Scientology it's called a clear.



Thanks Jose. Im an atheist, to be perfectly honest. But Im still interested in pantheism, and as a psycology I know the kind of "spiritual development" thing really does help. 

So my question is, what do you actually have to do to to become a "clear", in a nut shell? Meditation and stuff?

Ed


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## Jon Paouli Trapek (Jun 30, 2005)

* I personally have a reality that extends quite a bit beyond what people consider to be normal so I don't share it much anymore *

Are YOU Batman?!! :shock: :shock: 

Seriously Jose, I've read enough of your posts to have gone and ordered Dianetics off of Amazon so I can see what the fuss is about. A lot of what you've said intrigues me.


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## José Herring (Jun 30, 2005)

Ed said:


> josejherring said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You don't have to believe in God to be a Scientologist to be quite honest. It's not a worshiping religion.

The best way to find out about Clear is to read Dianetics. That's way you can decide for yourself if you want it.

Basically to become a Clear is far different than what other religions have approached spirituallity. There's not much in common with past religious practices.

In a real brief nutshell here it goes: This is actually pretty hard to explain so there's going to be a lot of information missing. Bare with me.

It was discovered in Diantics that every person has a reactive mind. That is the portion of the mind that works on a totally stimulous response basis that isn't under the volitional control(will) of the person himself. This reactive mind caused people to react in unpredictable ways and makes a person have unwanted emotions, unwanted physical pains and directs his thought towards counter-survival intentions. It's what makes people unhappy and makes people snap or engage in harmful things.

This reactive mind stores all the physical pain and moments of grief in ones lifetime. Then, when the person is under some stress again it can take over and dictate the behavior and thoughts and emotions of any given sitution.

It's like when you hear a song on the radio that reminds you of your first love that ended in dissaster. You feel horrible all day and you can't shake it easily even though you want to.

Well as people progress through life they have lots of moments of pain. They can't face it and then the reative mind kicks in even harder. It's a vicious cycle and a hard mechanism to beat. Eventually even the best of us have a hard time facing the day.

Well through Dianetics and Scientology practices you can safely peal off the charge associated with unpleasant memories and when you've gotten all the charge off you've been cleared. You still remember but the memeories aren't painful anymore.

What happens in this process is that the natural thrust of a person, his survival thrust, then resurges and the person is more alive. Capable of more things and capable of being a happier person.

Like I said. There's a lot that's missing. I would refer you to the Dianetics website. They have a free course on it. It will give you more info.

And, don't worry. I don't think you have to give your address or phone. 

Jose :wink:


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## José Herring (Jun 30, 2005)

Jon Paouli Trapek said:


> * I personally have a reality that extends quite a bit beyond what people consider to be normal so I don't share it much anymore *
> 
> Are YOU Batman?!! :shock: :shock:
> 
> Seriously Jose, I've read enough of your posts to have gone and ordered Dianetics off of Amazon so I can see what the fuss is about. A lot of what you've said intrigues me.



Cool, good luck with it. If you have any trouble with it let me know. Also, visit the website that's listed on the book.

I wish I were Batman. Then I'd have Catwomen after me. :oops: 

Jose


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 30, 2005)

You know, the concept that we have all this baggage that causes us to react the way we do seems very close to what psychoanalysis is all about. It's a very '70s idea, actually - not that there's nothing to it.


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## José Herring (Jun 30, 2005)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> You know, the concept that we have all this baggage that causes us to react the way we do seems very close to what psychoanalysis is all about. It's a very '70s idea, actually - not that there's nothing to it.



Dianetics was written in 1950. Gee, I wonder where they got it from? :roll: 

Jose


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## synergy543 (Jul 1, 2005)

What the bleep do we know? Interesting movie if you haven't seen it.


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## Brian Ralston (Jul 1, 2005)

There are a lot of interesting reads and alternate views on Scientology..that is for sure. 

http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/origin-p.htm

http://www.xenu.net

http://www.xenutv.com/

Here is an illustrated version of this "alternative" view.

http://www.xenu.net/archive/scientology_illustrated/


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 1, 2005)

Oh, Synergy. :(

That was THE biggest piece of crap I've ever seen in my life. Really.

Just a total load of useless bollox.


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## choc0thrax (Jul 1, 2005)

I don't know why i'd want to remove my pains away...how could I ever write music then? 8)


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## Simon Ravn (Jul 1, 2005)

I always preferred Rob Hubbard over Ron Hubbard.


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## José Herring (Jul 1, 2005)

choc0thrax said:


> I don't know why i'd want to remove my pains away...how could I ever write music then? 8)



I know. A lot of people think that.

Actually music doesn't come from your pains. It comes from you. The creator. If you want to write about your pains you can still do that. But why live with them mentally and physically(the mind is connected to the body btw so emotional pain can result in a lot of sickness) torturing you everyday?

I just got tired of being sick, and down and drinking 2 or 3 beers a night so that I could go to sleep only to wake up feeling worse. So I decided that my health and feelings were more important to me than anything.

Funny thing is as I became healthier, smarter and happier I became an even better musician. Because all the failures and upsets in music that happened as I was learning didn't bother me anymore. And, having gone to Juilliard there was a lot of "baggage" associated with music. OOUUUCH.

What get's me is that there are people out there that are still better at this then I am.

I GOT SO MUCH WORK TO DO!!!!! :lol: 

Jose


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## Jon Paouli Trapek (Jul 1, 2005)

Simon Ravn said:


> I always preferred Rob Hubbard over Ron Hubbard.



Then I'll put in a vote for Old Mother


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 1, 2005)

And Freddie Hubbard is good.


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## José Herring (Aug 14, 2005)

Bringing this subject back. Though I hesitate somewhat. 

Just listen to a Scientology lecture that helped to shed a better light on the religious philosophy. Don't know if it will make sense to anybody but it does to me and I thought it was cool so I'll share it in case anybody is interested.

This lecture dates back to 1955 and basically states that Scienotology takes a different approach than other religious, mental and spiritual practices. Other practices assume that there is something wrong with you. Then go about trying to fix what's wrong with you. Scientology finds what's right about you then works with that to increase the person spiritually.(Spiritually meaning, the non-material parts of a person, his intelligence, emotions, thoughts, ect.) By increasing you in this way Scientology can make you more intelligent, better able to control your own emotions and better able to have control over your environment.

Funny that it's taken me this long to hear this lecture. Because it explains exactly what's happening to me. My IQ over the years has gone up from 104 to 141. I rarely if ever get that upset about things. I don't spend more than 2 seconds a day depressed about things. I'm seldom very worried about stuff. Even when things get out of hand I'm still able to pull things back on course. That's been rather handy considering what I'm going through these days.

Got me thinkin' about what I do well in life and trying to expand from that base rather than trying to work on my faults. I figure I got faults. Big deal. What do I do that's good and right? I'm going to focus on that only for a while.

Interesting Journey.

Just my thoughts. No need to respond really.

Jose


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## IvanP (Aug 14, 2005)

Mmmm please can anyone explain to me how some guy who talks about this evil psichiatric and this outworldish phenomenon that should bind us altogether when we are dead (and if we have enough money of course) has managed to convince so many people??

You know, I'm only european


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## PaulR (Aug 14, 2005)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Koko the gorilla is supposed to have an IQ of about 90!



Holy Sh!t! That's more than most humans!

Not really surprised though.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 14, 2005)

Folmann,

I now exaktely what u meen. Not that I woud. I mean coud use that for gooding my life, jerk! I now that u cecretly think my stuph suks. Scru u than. !


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## José Herring (Aug 14, 2005)

Folmann. It's funny that you always say the Scientology is so old and so antiquated then you quote some guy that probably got those things from Scientology. Those 7 "meta" catagories are covered in some very basic courses in Scientology. Those aren't intelligence those are skills that can be learned. Intelligence underlies those things in that people of higher intelligence can learn skills more easily. 

If you know so much about the subject answer this question: 

What are the real methods the mind uses to think?


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## PaulR (Aug 14, 2005)

Folmann said:


> Its interesting that Scientology is still using IQ, since both psychology and psychiatry left it many years ago. The terminology was invented by a selfproclaimed psychologist named Alfred Binet in late 1880?s, which is kinda ironic since Scientology despise this "pseudo-science".



I knew it was a Frenchman in the late 19th century - but I didn't know that. I thought it was a simple test at that point - to test for autism in children.


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## José Herring (Aug 14, 2005)

PaulR said:


> Folmann said:
> 
> 
> > Its interesting that Scientology is still using IQ, since both psychology and psychiatry left it many years ago. The terminology was invented by a selfproclaimed psychologist named Alfred Binet in late 1880?s, which is kinda ironic since Scientology despise this "pseudo-science".
> ...



That's cool. It's been know for a long time that I'm autistic. I'm always the first to admit that I don't know anything. That's the only way I keep getting better. :wink: 

Matter of fact the more I study the more I realize I don't know jack! :lol: 

I better keep studying.

Jose


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## Frederick Russ (Aug 14, 2005)

Nothing like religion or politics to start a debate. Jose my friend, personally I could care less what your religion is. If it works for you that's okay in my book. 

Just a reminder however to realize when viewing the responses is that there is a big difference between malintent vs healthy skepticism. By posting a subject so close to one's heart such as one's own religious views on a public forum you should probably expect that not everyone will agree with your viewpoint or your personal choices. But you probably already knew that.

While I'm neither a scientist or a religious scholar I do know that some things - especially when regarding matters of the heart and our beliefs - cannot always be explained by conventional means. In those times when they can be explained then that's great - but life has proven time and again that phenomena isn't necessarily laid out as tidy as that 100% of the time. That said, I'm also not advocating that we should ignore the conventional ways of discovering our truths through science where possible. Science is valid,0add4bc6551.jpg [email protected]öúƒ2 ? û ‚ºBJ3a0678b0 2049530992499caba7f36dd.jpg Z@öúžƒ22  c  ªºBJc3bc980e 8http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/204/ayeayeavatar1od.jpg   < @÷úŸƒ22  ˜ ÈºBJ435564d6 13247009264830f3e94b26d.jpg Z@öú ƒ22  c  '»BJc3bc980e 8http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/204/ayeayeavatar1od.jpg   [email protected]þú¡ƒ22  Ñ l»BJ4b5229d1   Z@öú¢ƒ)2   c   »BJc3bc980e 8http://img6


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## Scott Cairns (Aug 14, 2005)

Scientology has always interested me. I hear the courses are great for creative people, they can remove a lot of psychological blocks, inhibitions and so forth.

The other side of the coin is that I hear its a money-sucker (sorry, not trying to have a dig, just saying plainly what Ive heard).

A friend of mines parents are apparently high up in Scientology, her mother flies all over the world opening new centres for the organisation.

She openly admitted to me once that her parents would be much better off financially if not for Scientology. They're in their 50s and have rented for their whole life. I know financial security is not the be-all-and-end-all. But monetary comfort is nice too. 

I dont know, if I knew Icould do a couple of courses here and there, no strings attached, Id probably do them. But if I were to be hounded to come back, do more courses, improve to the next level etc, that would irk me too much to even bother.


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## José Herring (Aug 14, 2005)

How deep do you want the rabbit hole to go? Because I could patty cake it for you. Or I could take you back 10,000 years. :wink: 


Jose


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## José Herring (Aug 14, 2005)

Scott Cairns said:


> Scientology has always interested me. I hear the courses are great for creative people, they can remove a lot of psychological blocks, inhibitions and so forth.
> 
> The other side of the coin is that I hear its a money-sucker (sorry, not trying to have a dig, just saying plainly what Ive heard).
> 
> ...



Yes it does help creatively. It cost yes. You have to do it at your own pace.

Best thing for you Scott might be to do some courses from home. Just talk to your moms friend or call a Church of Scientology mission.

As far as going broke I wouldn't know. My plan is to use what I know to make big bucks first then worry about paying for Scientology. I know that Chick and Mark Isham aren't hurtin' any. I know another composer using the technology and he's makin' about $42,000/ week. 

I guess it depends on what skills you have. 

Cheers,

Jose


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## José Herring (Aug 14, 2005)

joke dude. Lighten up.


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## Scott Rogers (Aug 14, 2005)

..........


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## José Herring (Aug 14, 2005)

Scott Rogers said:


> Folmann said:
> 
> 
> > I would not fit your rabbit hole...


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## José Herring (Aug 14, 2005)

What peers are you talking about? Maybe it doesn't work for your peers? Are your peers better than my peers? :wink: 

Actually judging by the number of scientist I've met involved in Scientology I'd say it works for your peers too.

I think for Scientology to be recognized officially by any scientific journals they would have to wake up and admit that man is more than just an intelligent monkey. Which isn't going to happen anytime soon. They cling to that belief like crazy. Even though there isn't any proof of that either.

So yes Folmann. I bow to your superior intellect and in my childish ways I'll just keep getting smarter, healthier, happier and more in control of myself and environment. Then maybe someday I'll catch up to you. 8) 

Jose


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## José Herring (Aug 14, 2005)

choc0thrax said:


> josejherring said:
> 
> 
> > I'll do a scientific experiment on you. I'll run you through a Scientology process designed to improve your memory.
> ...



Free.


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## José Herring (Aug 14, 2005)

hah. :lol: Alright buddy.

Jose


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## Rodney Glenn (Aug 15, 2005)

Simon Ravn said:


> I always preferred Rob Hubbard over Ron Hubbard.



Hehe...same here. :D


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