# What to listen for when mixing?



## THW (Oct 26, 2020)

Hello,

I've been watching a ton of videos on mixing and I'm trying to apply the things I learn in my own music. While I understand why to use tools like compression and eq, I have a difficult time hearing when compression or eq are applied and struggle to really hear a difference. Some videos are presented in such a way that I think it should be obvious to the listener how improved the mix is due to that low cut filter, but I just don't hear it. My natural inclination is to listen to things like the intonation, quality and timbre of the sound, but then lose track of what I'm listening for. Honestly, this applies to quite a few effects I've experimented with, where I understand a subtle application can make a difference. I find this particularly challenging on drums and bass when making beats (although I mainly aspire to write orchestral music, I do enjoy writing instrumental hiphop as well). Any helpful tips to consider when listening for and working with compression and eq would be much appreciated! For headphones I'm using DT-880s primarily, and I have some KRK monitors. Thanks!


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## goalie composer (Oct 26, 2020)

One tip for what it's worth, go extreme with whatever it is at the beginning so you can start to train your ears to listen for something specific. Example: if you use extreme settings on saturation then you can get it in your "minds eye" what the sound is. Then pull back on it and try to get it in the pocket that 'feels good'


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## THW (Oct 27, 2020)

goalie composer said:


> One tip for what it's worth, go extreme with whatever it is at the beginning so you can start to train your ears to listen for something specific. Example: if you use extreme settings on saturation then you can get it in your "minds eye" what the sound is. Then pull back on it and try to get it in the pocket that 'feels good'


Thanks, this is indeed useful. I was experimenting with this and it certainly helped keep me focused on listening to the specific sound.


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## JohnG (Oct 27, 2020)

If you are mixing a lot of music (not just one song), the first thing is to set your sound levels so they are steady from one mix to the next. If you have a sound pressure monitor (a little hand-held device about the size of a cell phone with a VU meter) that works. Probably you can get an approximation with an app of some kind but that will depend on how good the mic on your mobile device is (and whether it's clogged etc.).

You run pink noise through your speakers and change the amplifier volume until you get the desired level, measured in dB.

Most mixing engineers I talk to mix lower than I do; way lower. I like about 88 dB, but some mix at 70 or even less. The argument for mixing lower is that you're not tricked as easily by the visceral satisfaction of "real loud sounds." I admit it's easier to hear sins of omission at low levels; if you can't hear everything at a relatively low level (your little shaker or flute part or whatever) then you know you need to turn it up or turn everything else down.

One engineer I worked with starts with the bass (song or orchestra) and builds up from there.

Also good to turn off all the percussion once in a while to make sure you haven't just covered up problems with drums.


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## mscp (Oct 27, 2020)

THW said:


> Hello,
> 
> I've been watching a ton of videos on mixing and I'm trying to apply the things I learn in my own music. While I understand why to use tools like compression and eq, I have a difficult time hearing when compression or eq are applied and struggle to really hear a difference. Some videos are presented in such a way that I think it should be obvious to the listener how improved the mix is due to that low cut filter, but I just don't hear it. My natural inclination is to listen to things like the intonation, quality and timbre of the sound, but then lose track of what I'm listening for. Honestly, this applies to quite a few effects I've experimented with, where I understand a subtle application can make a difference. I find this particularly challenging on drums and bass when making beats (although I mainly aspire to write orchestral music, I do enjoy writing instrumental hiphop as well). Any helpful tips to consider when listening for and working with compression and eq would be much appreciated! For headphones I'm using DT-880s primarily, and I have some KRK monitors. Thanks!



One tip comes to mind: read https://www.mixingwithyourmind.com

If you're looking for in-depth help, let me ask you something first: are you mixing in a treated or untreated room? The reason I ask is greatly because of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_wave


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## Rasoul Morteza (Oct 27, 2020)

These are mostly to myself, but it may be of help:

1. Make sure there is contrast/focus; having everything at the same level can be quite detrimental. Should the melodic line be of importance? If yes bring that forth and move everything else away to give it space; etc etc

2. Keep checking the mix on low and high gain levels, but make sure that your monitoring system has a fixed gain reference.

Cheers


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## Macrawn (Oct 27, 2020)

One thing that has helped me from an ears point of view is sound gym. I wasn't sure about it at first but you can try it a month see if it works for you.

It does a lot of things to help train your ears. A couple of examples are finding the cut frequency, or frequency boost. Another one provides and eq curve and you have to identify from the original and two choices which one has the shown new curve. A couple others are listening to compression. One has you listen to a sound and duplicate it on a compressor. Others for listening to pan and reverb.

I started out so bad on it, now I can hear a frequency and I know where it is more or less. I can hear compression and distortion way better too. I got a couple of reference charts that tells me places to look for for certain things on different instruments, is also helping me get used to where to look.

There are other ways to train it out on your own but the gamification way works for me.


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## Marsen (Oct 27, 2020)

JohnG said:


> If you are mixing a lot of music (not just one song), the first thing is to set your sound levels so they are steady from one mix to the next.



This.

And most important, get some serious speakers in a room with some acoustic treatment. 
Just to have " Krk's" doesn't say anything. Also just mixing on headphones can be weary.
Training your ears, compare your mixes with the ones, you like most on the same speakers/room. 
Really think about how you place speakers & equipment, acoustic treatment.


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## GtrString (Oct 27, 2020)

What you are asking about is critical listening. Critical means that you use a specific set of criteria when you listen, and these criteria can be very different depending on type of music (rock, pop, classical, film score ect.), engineering criteria as well as subjective and objective targets.

Your subjective targets can be that you mix should represent a certain type of values (something you like), and objective targets can be that the mix needs to represent others values (like a publisher, artist or director as well as use cases for the music).

So it's a big question. People jump in quick with technical (engineering and production) criteria, but the question can contain a lot more. I think one of the most important things is to develop your own taste, or become aware of what you like, and use that as criteria for listening.

You might say, of course I know what I like, but can I really rely on that? No and yes. Your taste may change over short and long periods of time, you may not be the self-aware type, and whether you can go with what you like or not, depends on who you will target with your music (no, everyone is not an option). 

My best suggestion is to get serious about your own taste, because then you can assess the typical std advice you get on YouTube ect., better. And that is also part of your question as I read it (OP). There is a great learning journey in picking your 10 favourite pieces of music, and use those as a backdrop when listening (aka "reference tracks").


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## THW (Oct 27, 2020)

I really came to the right place to ask my question. Thank you all so much!



JohnG said:


> If you are mixing a lot of music (not just one song), the first thing is to set your sound levels so they are steady from one mix to the next. If you have a sound pressure monitor (a little hand-held device about the size of a cell phone with a VU meter) that works. Probably you can get an approximation with an app of some kind but that will depend on how good the mic on your mobile device is (and whether it's clogged etc.).
> 
> You run pink noise through your speakers and change the amplifier volume until you get the desired level, measured in dB.
> 
> ...




Thanks for the helpful advice! So, I need to revisit this. When I first purchased my monitors I attempted to use the KRK audio tools app that came with the monitors to set the level. I'm also in an untreated room, and I used the iphone app on my mobile. 

In the past few days I've realized that I'm never mixing or composing at the same monitoring level, often turning it down (at request of my fiancee ) so I infact couldn't hear everything when played at a low level, and then compensating for that. I was adjusting the monitor level on my interface, and now (in studio one) on the listen bus. I feel pretty dumb about this, certainly a learning experience going back to older ideas and hearing the mix, when played at if I'm measuring correctly, around 80db on the monitors. I'm not sure about the headphones. Frustrating I never really considered this as I just focused my attention on not clipping, and would use the mod wheel to make things louder, when that's really not what I should have been doing...at all. 



Phil81 said:


> One tip comes to mind: read https://www.mixingwithyourmind.com
> 
> If you're looking for in-depth help, let me ask you something first: are you mixing in a treated or untreated room? The reason I ask is greatly because of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_wave



Thanks for the recommendation, this looks like a great reference!



Macrawn said:


> One thing that has helped me from an ears point of view is sound gym. I wasn't sure about it at first but you can try it a month see if it works for you.
> 
> It does a lot of things to help train your ears. A couple of examples are finding the cut frequency, or frequency boost. Another one provides and eq curve and you have to identify from the original and two choices which one has the shown new curve. A couple others are listening to compression. One has you listen to a sound and duplicate it on a compressor. Others for listening to pan and reverb.
> 
> ...


Another great resource, thank you for the explanation, these are certainly things I'm struggling with. 



GtrString said:


> My best suggestion is to get serious about your own taste, because then you can assess the typical std advice you get on YouTube ect., better. And that is also part of your question as I read it (OP). There is a great learning journey in picking your 10 favourite pieces of music, and use those as a backdrop when listening (aka "reference tracks").



Thank you, this is a great idea. I really need to get some proper reference tracks. I've recently been listening to some favorites on spotify and I have the streaming quality set to "very high", but I don't know what that really means. I'd like to get a reference track in my daw, but I don't have anyway to loopback with my interface, so I assume I'd have to purchase a cd, or download a high quality .wav file? 

I have a copy of the "How to train your dragon" score in the mail, and I hope to do some focused score study and work on critical listening. This is one of the most inspirational soundtracks to me personally, and I can't wait to dive in.


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## mscp (Oct 27, 2020)

THW said:


> Thank you, this is a great idea. I really need to get some proper reference tracks. I've recently been listening to some favorites on spotify and I have the streaming quality set to "very high", but I don't know what that really means. I'd like to get a reference track in my daw, but I don't have anyway to loopback with my interface, so I assume I'd have to purchase a cd, or download a high quality .wav file?



Streaming: https://www.primephonic.com ; https://www.qobuz.com
Hi-def audio: hdtracks.com


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