# Headphones for general use



## Rohann (Nov 24, 2017)

Hi folks,

Been reading around here for recommendations, and am considering picking up some headphones for general use. I know they're not ideal for professional mixing and won't be using them exclusively as such, but I'm hoping for a multipurpose pair while I don't have my own be-loud-whenever studio space.

Since Sennheisers are quite expensive here comparatively ($400+), I'm considering DT770/880/990, AKG M50x, K701/702, etc. All seem to be between $150 (the AKGs only) to about $250. Primarily composing/mixing VIs (orchestral and some electronic/sound-design) so I _think _soundstage is important, as well as instrument separation. Also hoping to just track guitar and listen to music. Not sure I'll be doing mic recording with them but it might be worth considering, though low down on the priority list I would think.

Any tips? Open vs closed back? 250ohm vs 600 vs 80?

Also, do you get your actual headphones calibrated or would a reference program simply use a specific calibration equivalent for a particular brand/model?


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## jcrosby (Nov 25, 2017)

For SW you want either a supported pair or expect to send them in...

Headphones like speakers are ultimately a combination of personal taste and affordability. Personally my favorite pair of cans for both mixing and listening are Hifi cans, NAD-VISO HP50s. Although they're not 'standard' they just suited my preference... (Although later I found out Bob Katz is a pretty big fan of them so I can't stress enough to let your ears be your guide...)

I personally like closed back as I want to hear as much close up detail as possible... ( I also don't like headphones for imaging so the whole soundstage argument is moot AFAIC. We don't hear imaging in cans the same way we do in speakers and I've never experienced front to back and height in cans the way I do on speakers... Although there's a piece of software I use that does a pretty remarkable job recreating it on phones...)

I'd recommend finding a Hifi shop that carries Sennheisers and other cans people recommend or you're interested in and do a bunch of listening. Even pick a couple outliers and see what you think... I walked into my hifi assuming I'd settle on Sennies but walked out with the NADs very unexpectedly...


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## Rohann (Nov 25, 2017)

Thanks, good points. What software do you use? Is getting a Sonarworks supported pair worth it?

Re: soundstage. Good point. I suppose I'd like a decent soundstage purely for the listening aspect, but only so long as it doesn't degrade mixing capabilities (I know it can sound exaggerated through headhones vs monitors, i.e. panning, etc). I'll try and have a listen today and see what I think. If anyone has pointers on things like extended use comfort, ear fatigue, exaggerated frequencies, etc I'd appreciate it.


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## TheNorseman (Nov 25, 2017)

I have been using ATH-M50's for almost a decade now. Use them for mixing and everything, mixes come out great. Paid $150 for them and can't use anything else now.


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## Rohann (Nov 25, 2017)

Did you compare them to others at the time or was it more a case of liking and learning their sound well? I wonder if Charlie is still using his M50x's...
Any ides on open vs closed and 250 vs 80 Ohm?


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## bjderganc (Nov 25, 2017)

I recently went with a pair of 80 ohm 770s to compliment my 650s. The 650s are super nice but very hard to travel with. No experience with the 880/990s, but open headphones require a fairly quiet space, or otherwise you'll find yourself cranking the volume. Tracking with open headphones is something to be avoided, IMHO. Using them outside or at a coffee shop won't work either, in case you had that in mind.

The impedance you choose depends on the amp you're using to drive the headphones. With a higher impedance headphone you'll need a more powerful amp. There are also some minor differences in the frequency response, but probably nothing to get excited about. The 80 ohms are great for general use because they can be driven by something as small as your phone. 250 ohms and above are a little iffy for phone and laptop onboard sound, but may work.

DT770s also have solid isolation are pretty comfortable. The M50x is a good choice too, but I would take the 770 every time.


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## TheNorseman (Nov 25, 2017)

Rohann said:


> Did you compare them to others at the time or was it more a case of liking and learning their sound well? I wonder if Charlie is still using his M50x's...
> Any ides on open vs closed and 250 vs 80 Ohm?



No, if I remember correctly, I think someone on the Andy Sneap forum recommended them as a budget headphone since I was a broke college kid at the time. I just have used them for so long now that any time I try to switch to something else, my mixes don't come out right at all.


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## Rohann (Nov 25, 2017)

bjderganc said:


> I recently went with a pair of 80 ohm 770s to compliment my 650s. The 650s are super nice but very hard to travel with. No experience with the 880/990s, but open headphones require a fairly quiet space, or otherwise you'll find yourself cranking the volume. Tracking with open headphones is something to be avoided, IMHO. Using them outside or at a coffee shop won't work either, in case you had that in mind.
> 
> The impedance you choose depends on the amp you're using to drive the headphones. With a higher impedance headphone you'll need a more powerful amp. There are also some minor differences in the frequency response, but probably nothing to get excited about. The 80 ohms are great for general use because they can be driven by something as small as your phone. 250 ohms and above are a little iffy for phone and laptop onboard sound, but may work.
> 
> DT770s also have solid isolation are pretty comfortable. The M50x is a good choice too, but I would take the 770 every time.


Thanks for the tips! Good points re: tracking. It won't be for mic tracking (at least for now), and likely not for taking to a busy place. I'm not sure I want them open as the place I'm working won't always be noise free, but I'm still open to it. I suppose too much detail isn't the best idea either if one wants subtlety to translate to monitors or speakers but I suppose it's a process of learning them well.

The local store only had Focal Spirit Pro's (recommended to me by an audio engineering friend) and M50x's. The Focal Spirits were considerably less comfortable (I wear glasses, which I didn't find that annoying short-term with either really but the 50's were adjustable and more comfortable all around), and sounded sort of...narrow? Or "closed". Not much low end, and instruments didn't sound particularly separated. Also not sure if that's because they're more honest than the 50's...
The 50x's sounded decent to my ear -- not exaggerated and bassy but everything was present and relatively separated. Probably doesn't help that the store didn't really have a hi-fi source.


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## T-Funk (Nov 26, 2017)

I am big AKG headphone fan. For general-purpose use and studio monitoring, I use either the K240 MKII (semi-open) or AKG K271 MKII (closed).

I also have the AKG K712 PRO (open) and Q701 (semi-open) models that I keep in my project studio for mixing and other engineering-related tasks.

The AKG Q701 headphone are presently discontinued, but still available at some online retailers at a discounted price. I would highly consider them as a first option for general-purpose or studio engineering needs, if you find a good price.


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## Rohann (Nov 27, 2017)

I looked for some Q701's but they seem more expensive than HD 650's here in Canada ($600+).
My eventual studio space will be quiet and isolated (in 6 mos to a year, hopefully), but I'm concerned that for the time being my space won't be terribly quiet as it will likely be shared. I understand the downaides of closed back headphones and am not looking forward to them, but are they better than having sound bleed and the like? Also, any recommendations for halfway decent mixing phones that are closed? I'm concerned about ear fatigue/hearing loss/etc, but I'm not sure I have another option at this point.


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## chimuelo (Nov 27, 2017)

Beyerdynamic dtt on sale @ Amazon for 142 USD.
A decent one size fits all handcuffed to desktop solution.


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## Rohann (Nov 27, 2017)

chimuelo said:


> Beyerdynamic dtt on sale @ Amazon for 142 USD.
> A decent one size fits all handcuffed to desktop solution.


770's?

If only import, shipping and exchange didn't amount to the price difference...

PS -- I think I may have found a solution -- my room may not be as noisy or shared as once suspected. Is the sound bleed-in _severe_ with open-backed headphones (i.e. voices in another room or on another floor?)?

I'm considering the DT880's, and possibly (eventually) the M50x's for tracking/listening/etc later, as they're rather cheap. DT880 premium 600ohm is $243 on Amazon.ca right now, cheaper than the pro model (oddly).

Would an 18i8 appropriately power a 600ohm headphone? I'm not looking to go crazy with a headphone setup re: amps and the like, so I'm hoping the sound will suffice through the 18i8 (it's AC, not USB powered). Would the 250 be a better option?




T-Funk said:


> I am big AKG headphone fan. For general-purpose use and studio monitoring, I use either the K240 MKII (semi-open) or AKG K271 MKII (closed).
> 
> I also have the AKG K712 PRO (open) and Q701 (semi-open) models that I keep in my project studio for mixing and other engineering-related tasks.
> 
> The AKG Q701 headphone are presently discontinued, but still available at some online retailers at a discounted price. I would highly consider them as a first option for general-purpose or studio engineering needs, if you find a good price.


The complaint I've heard about K701's and 702's are that the highs are rather harsh and the low end isn't particularly prominent. The Q701 is unfortunately expensive.

The K240 MKII's are only $190. Any comparison to the Q701's?


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## jonathanprice (Nov 27, 2017)

Rohann said:


> I looked for some Q701's but they seem more expensive than HD 650's here in Canada ($600+).
> My eventual studio space will be quiet and isolated (in 6 mos to a year, hopefully), but I'm concerned that for the time being my space won't be terribly quiet as it will likely be shared. I understand the downaides of closed back headphones and am not looking forward to them, but are they better than having sound bleed and the like? Also, any recommendations for halfway decent mixing phones that are closed? I'm concerned about ear fatigue/hearing loss/etc, but I'm not sure I have another option at this point.



I've got the Q701's and they're a great help coming up with a pre-mix before I use speakers. When I used to use closed cans, my bass was always off. Now I'm 90% there with a headphone mix. But if you do happen to find discounted Q's, be warned the "soft" head-rest ridges created two dents in the top of my head. I had to flip the head-rest behind behind my head (which puts a little more pressure on my ears) and it took four months for the dents to disappear. I felt like a bowling ball without a thumb-hole.


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## T-Funk (Nov 28, 2017)

Rohann said:


> The complaint I've heard about K701's and 702's are that the highs are rather harsh and the low end isn't particularly prominent. The Q701 is unfortunately expensive.
> 
> The K240 MKII's are only $190. Any comparison to the Q701's?



In general, AKG headphones do not accentuate the bass, but I do not find them shy in the low-end. Overall, IMO, AKG headphones are good for clarity and detail.

In regards to the comparison between the Q701 and K240 MKII, the Q701's are definitely the better headphone in build quality and sound reproduction. However, the K240 MK II is not a bad headphone by any means. I mostly use the K240 MKII for practicing on my digital piano and an alternative studio mixing headphone.

If I recall correctly, the AKG K240 is still sold and has the same internal components as the K240 MK II at a much lower cost. If budget is a consideration, I would opt for the non-MK II version of the K240.


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## Synetos (Nov 28, 2017)

I used DT 770 Pro, which I liked...until I bought Sennheiser HD800s. I love the HD800s. Extremely comfortable, amazing sound, and totally worth the small fortune (~$1500) i paid for them. I can wear them for hours. I like the open back. They breath, and my ears never sweat. I added Waves NX Virtual mix room plugin. I dont use the bluetooth tracking, but with the plugin, I don't really even need to use studio monitors for mixing. YMMV.


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## elpedro (Nov 29, 2017)

for general use I use ultrasone headphones, they have very low EMF emissions and sound great.The low electromagnetics make them great for long sessions, they produce less fatigue.The lower end models are quite cheap.


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## Rohann (Nov 30, 2017)

elpedro: What model?

Ok so after a bit more reading and searching, I've found DT880 600ohm for $250, HD600 for $350, M50x for $180, and AKG702 for $270. Some of the others listed seem discontinued.

While I'm all for saving money, I want something worthwhile as a longer term investment, as reference or otherwise. With the HD 600 on sale as well as the DT880, any opinions on whether or not the Senns are worth the extra cash for monitoring/mixing/reference? The DT's sound treble detailed but I'm worried about ear fatigue and mix translation. The HDs seem balanced but I'm unsure about the "veiled" nature of their sound. The AKGs sound like they lack low end detail and apparently the bumpy headband is quite uncomfortable (haven't tried these specifically but bumpy headbands bother me on other models).


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## elpedro (Nov 30, 2017)

Rohann said:


> elpedro: What model?
> 
> Ok so after a bit more reading and searching, I've found DT880 600ohm for $250, HD600 for $350, M50x for $180, and AKG702 for $270. Some of the others listed seem discontinued.
> 
> While I'm all for saving money, I want something worthwhile as a longer term investment, as reference or otherwise. With the HD 600 on sale as well as the DT880, any opinions on whether or not the Senns are worth the extra cash for monitoring/mixing/reference? The DT's sound treble detailed but I'm worried about ear fatigue and mix translation. The HDs seem balanced but I'm unsure about the "veiled" nature of their sound. The AKGs sound like they lack low end detail and apparently the bumpy headband is quite uncomfortable (haven't tried these specifically but bumpy headbands bother me on other models).


I have the 550's,but there are all new models now.


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## SchnookyPants (Nov 30, 2017)

AKG K 240 Mk II - $149usd @ B&H:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/555359-REG/AKG_2058_Z_00190_K_240_MK_II.html

I like 'em.


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## Synetos (Nov 30, 2017)

Obviously, I am biased toward the HD800s. I dont hear any "hype or veiled" anything. Frankly, I would suggest you choose comfort as a pretty large determining factor. My ears fatigue when they get hot and the cans/band are pinching my head. I have never worn any headphones that are more comfortable than the HD800s

Honestly, you can mix on anything...once you understand how it translates. It really no different than getting use to your studio monitors. If possible, I would just go find a Guitar Center, or other source and try them on...and listen. Prob wont find the highend options there, but you may find some of the middle of the road options.

In my setup, I use the HD800S with a Dangerous Source amp. I am supper happy with that combo. I also have JBL4328P and JBL4312SP subs. I prefer to mix with my HD800S headphones. They take the low end all the way down to 4hz. I can hear everything.

Actually, the HD800 spec says 10-44,100 at -3db and my JBL4328P is only 43-22,000 at -3db The Subs are 27-250 @-6db. Basically, my headphones cover more of the spectrum (evenly) than my studio monitors. No wonder I like mixing on them.


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## Rohann (Nov 30, 2017)

Synetos said:


> Obviously, I am biased toward the HD800s. I dont hear any "hype or veiled" anything. Frankly, I would suggest you choose comfort as a pretty large determining factor. My ears fatigue when they get hot and the cans/band are pinching my head. I have never worn any headphones that are more comfortable than the HD800s
> 
> Honestly, you can mix on anything...once you understand how it translates. It really no different than getting use to your studio monitors. If possible, I would just go find a Guitar Center, or other source and try them on...and listen. Prob wont find the highend options there, but you may find some of the middle of the road options.
> 
> ...


After trying a few (I only have access to Focal Spirit Pros, M50xs and a few lower end models) I can completely see the merit of comfortable headphones. The Spirits had bumps in the headband that made them an immediate non-option.
Re:learning headphones. True, and good point. I think comfort is important again here though -- ear fatigue tends not to be comfortable so a harsh headphone will likely be unpleasant after a while.

Have you tried the 600s, DT880s or the like? I'm strongly considering the 600s now due to comfort and them not being fatiguing. HD800s are too expensive but I'm curious what they sound close to. I'm wondering if the bass extends far enough and whether the highs are clean enough to be analytical with on 600s.


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## charlieclouser (Dec 1, 2017)

Rohann said:


> Did you compare them to others at the time or was it more a case of liking and learning their sound well? I wonder if Charlie is still using his M50x's...
> Any ides on open vs closed and 250 vs 80 Ohm?



Still loving the M-50x. I recently tried @vrocko Audeze LCD-X and they were very very nice, but are they worth $1,700? I dunno - I really dislike headphones and only use them for about 10 minutes a day, just as a mix checker, so maybe that's not worth it for me.

It's like everything that I could hear in the LCD-X was present in the M-50x, but just more squashed together. Not as easy to separate elements on them. But for me that's not a huge deal - I mainly use headphones to check eq and zoom in on stuff, not to actually balance a mix or work on "dimension" or "space".


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## Synetos (Dec 1, 2017)

Rohann said:


> After trying a few (I only have access to Focal Spirit Pros, M50xs and a few lower end models) I can completely see the merit of comfortable headphones. The Spirits had bumps in the headband that made them an immediate non-option.
> Re:learning headphones. True, and good point. I think comfort is important again here though -- ear fatigue tends not to be comfortable so a harsh headphone will likely be unpleasant after a while.
> 
> Have you tried the 600s, DT880s or the like? I'm strongly considering the 600s now due to comfort and them not being fatiguing. HD800s are too expensive but I'm curious what they sound close to. I'm wondering if the bass extends far enough and whether the highs are clean enough to be analytical with on 600s.



No, I have not tried any headphones other than the DT770 and HD800s in my studio.
Here is a link to a discussion on the HD600/650 and HD800. Maybe you will find something useful in there.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/senn-hd600-650-fans-on-the-hd800-owners-only.429123/


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## Rohann (Dec 1, 2017)

charlieclouser said:


> Still loving the M-50x. I recently tried @vrocko Audeze LCD-X and they were very very nice, but are they worth $1,700? I dunno - I really dislike headphones and only use them for about 10 minutes a day, just as a mix checker, so maybe that's not worth it for me.
> 
> It's like everything that I could hear in the LCD-X was present in the M-50x, but just more squashed together. Not as easy to separate elements on them. But for me that's not a huge deal - I mainly use headphones to check eq and zoom in on stuff, not to actually balance a mix or work on "dimension" or "space".


Thanks Charlie, that's helpful. I'll likely end up picking some up at some point for reference. Glad to see so much positive feedback on them.
Ideally I'd rather not use them for extended periods of time, but I'm hoping to find something midrange worth keeping for the time being.
As much as HD800s and LCDX cans seem amazing, I would way rather save that cash for eventual studio building/monitor purchases.


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## Symfoniq (Dec 1, 2017)

I find my particular ATH-M50X headphones rather harsh in the high frequencies. If I used headphones more often, I'd probably buy something else, but I still think they're decent for the price.


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## Rohann (Dec 1, 2017)

Synetos said:


> No, I have not tried any headphones other than the DT770 and HD800s in my studio.
> Here is a link to a discussion on the HD600/650 and HD800. Maybe you will find something useful in there.
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/senn-hd600-650-fans-on-the-hd800-owners-only.429123/


Thanks!

It seems difficult to find consensus between composers/engineers on this topic, and also to figure out who knows what good mixes sound like (I.e my Adams/Genelecs in my treated studio vs my 5" Rockits in my bedroom). The HD800s seem amazing but price wise it's a no-go for me.


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## vrocko (Dec 3, 2017)

charlieclouser said:


> Still loving the M-50x. I recently tried @vrocko Audeze LCD-X and they were very very nice, but are they worth $1,700? I dunno - I really dislike headphones and only use them for about 10 minutes a day, just as a mix checker, so maybe that's not worth it for me.
> 
> It's like everything that I could hear in the LCD-X was present in the M-50x, but just more squashed together. Not as easy to separate elements on them. But for me that's not a huge deal - I mainly use headphones to check eq and zoom in on stuff, not to actually balance a mix or work on "dimension" or "space".


Charlie's description is spot on. IMHO, the M-50's are very hard to beat, especially anywhere near the price range. Even though I own the Audeze's, I only use them to find problem frequencies and check the bottom end that my crappy room does not reveal. The M-50's are great all-around headphones being that they are closed back. I own the M-50's and the Beyerdynamic DT880 (Open Back) and they would be my choice if I didn't have the Audeze's.


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## conan (Dec 3, 2017)

Synetos said:


> Obviously, I am biased toward the HD800s. I dont hear any "hype or veiled" anything. Frankly, I would suggest you choose comfort as a pretty large determining factor. My ears fatigue when they get hot and the cans/band are pinching my head. I have never worn any headphones that are more comfortable than the HD800s
> 
> Honestly, you can mix on anything...once you understand how it translates. It really no different than getting use to your studio monitors. If possible, I would just go find a Guitar Center, or other source and try them on...and listen. Prob wont find the highend options there, but you may find some of the middle of the road options.
> 
> ...



I also love the HD800. I can track with them tirelessly with precise but non-fatiguing detail. I can get incredibly close to a final mix without using any correction software if I must (cans are never ideal for mixing), although I will always perform final tweaking with my PSI, PMC, or Genelec monitors. They weren't cheap, but they are one purchase I've never regretted.


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## Rohann (Dec 3, 2017)

vrocko said:


> Charlie's description is spot on. IMHO, the M-50's are very hard to beat, especially anywhere near the price range. Even though I own the Audeze's, I only use them to find problem frequencies and check the bottom end that my crappy room does not reveal. The M-50's are great all-around headphones being that they are closed back. I own the M-50's and the Beyerdynamic DT880 (Open Back) and they would be my choice if I didn't have the Audeze's.


Haha, Audeze's would be great but I'd way rather spend the cash on my studio. Charlie's description is indeed helpful; I'm sure I'll grab them down the road (maybe soon), but it seems like they may not be the best idea for more extended use. I'm realizing comfort is probably one of the biggest factors in longer listening.

I think something I'm wondering too is -- precisely what is one looking for in a pseudo-mixing/reference phone?

I would think:
-Clarity -- the ability to hear frequencies correctly/accurately and not have to overcompensate
-Transparency/"soundstage" -- where instruments are sitting in a mix and what kind of "Space" they're occupying
-Fatigue prevention -- something worth using for extended periods without getting significant fatigue (either from the pads/headband or the speakers themselves)

I'm really not shooting for something that can match higher end monitors, just something that is usable/relatively accurate for mixes/reference (comparable to/hopefully better than HS80Ms in a semi-treated room). Does a plugin like Sonarworks more or less compensate for the majority of difference between medium and semi-high end phones?

HD800's really do sound fantastic but they seem more of a "down the line" purchase. Kind of like purchasing high end monitors before having a proper studio space or a treated room.


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## Rohann (Dec 13, 2017)

Thanks again for all the help. Went with DT880's (600ohm) as they're on sale for $214, compared to K702's at $330 and the HD600's went back up to $450. I also heard the 880 was like a less-good version of the HD800's which many seem to love.

Trying some songs out through my 18i8, the highs really don't bother me as I don't monitor at high volumes, but there seems to be a bit of a lower-mid lack. Opeth doesn't sound particularly "fun", which I don't mind, but I'm worried about mixing kickdrum frequencies and the like properly.

I did trial Sonarworks' Headphone correction (not that I think it necessarily perfectly corrects, but I digress), and A/Bing it, with the correction applied it sounds much more similar to my monitors -- highs are very slightly lowered, and there's just enough low end added to be able to hear a kickdrum sound "punchy" without sounding bass heavy. Good mixes sound good without sounding hyped. I wonder if a slight EQ via Sonarworks is worth it? Or is the 18i8's lack of a good amp? Volume is at about 3/4 on the headphone volume knob, so relatively high, but that's with system volume not quite all the way up. I don't think I'm picking up any distortion, though sibilant recordings do seem more transparent.


PS -- Any recommendations for a complimentary closed-back phone? Looking for one for tracking, referencing and simply pleasurable listening. Doesn't need to be perfectly flat, but somewhat more honest that cheap phones would be nice, as it's nice to be able to hear clearer sound during listening with a wider soundstage. Considering the M50x but the 770's are the same price or cheaper here, as are Grado SR60/80's.


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