# Score study recommendations - Bergensen/Powell-esque



## Jetzer (Jan 9, 2017)

I was listening to this, and want to learn more about it:


I could transcribe this one + a couple of other Bergensen or Powells pieces, but what would be any good (classical) scores I could check?

I especially want to learn how the strings are written.


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## WhiteNoiz (Jan 9, 2017)

-

http://vi-control.net/community/threads/the-hollywood-sound.56820/#post-4006611

You can extrapolate the principles from those... There are some fan-made ones on musescore you could use as starting points and piano reductions on YT. And also doing them yourself. It can still be useful, albeit a bit of a shot in the dark without the original reference/score.

http://vi-control.net/community/threads/trailer-music-sheets.45177/


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## Jetzer (Jan 9, 2017)

Thanks @WhiteNoiz 

I agree, piano reductions & transcriptions are good to do but you never know if you did it right if there isn't a score to look at.


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## Mars (Jan 9, 2017)

You've probably already found this I guess : 
http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title...score-full-score-digital-sheet-music/20158495

The price is attractive but that's not matching perfectly the album version, which is a bit disturbing. 

But there's a very good "amateur" transcription on Musescore which I highly recommend (and every instruments are in C - which is easier to read): 
https://musescore.com/user/20635/scores/1150871


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## JohnG (Jan 9, 2017)

As far as what's available, there are John Williams Study Scores out there that one can buy or borrow from a library. They are not exactly TSFH but some of the pieces from Star Wars, especially the later ones, have passages that might work for what you're aiming to learn. If you could lay your hands on the original score, rather than an arrangement, of How To Train Your Dragon, you'd be right on it.


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## Blackster (Jan 9, 2017)

Here are my thoughts about how to write like that: I would always make sure first that you decide THE FUNCTION of each section in a particular passage. Because you are curious about the strings: What is the function in each musical section? Is it doubling the melody, is it a counter line, or just a free line on a scale to bridge into a new part, is it part of the harmony (like being part of the chord structure), is it there to create some rhythmic sparkle (like an ostinato). Once have decided what FUNCTION you wanna hear in each part of the strings, it is not really complicated, here are some examples from the piece you posted (by Bergersen)

1) Beginning: Strings are totally harmony presented in a rhythm; low strings give the root and a little movement on scale tones
2) from 0:20 ... now that the root and the scale is established, the horns take over the melody, there is no need for the high strings to stay in their static harmony part anymore as the rhythm is emphasized by the low strings which are playing the root anyway. So what can you do in the high strings to create some interest? - keep the rhythm and play some arpeggios on the scale around the horns line ... also, the high runs in the strings prepare for the shift of the tonal center at around 0:30
... 
..
and so on ... this is the way I would analyze the piece and then mimic some of the movements you liked. Do not copy any of the melodic content, though, as this will get you into legal problems  ... 
[as you probably know anyway ...  ... ]


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## ctsai89 (Jan 9, 2017)

WhiteNoiz said:


> -
> 
> http://vi-control.net/community/threads/the-hollywood-sound.56820/#post-4006611
> 
> ...





i wouldn't say the mozart one is good for this. I mean the violins barely play anything in the high range and it's doing double 16th notes the whole time. Mozart is always boring to me but that's just me. 

anyways: Scriabin's symphony no 1, 2, 3, poem of ecstasy, check them out if you havent. 

Wagner's Die meistersinger overture.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEUjVq8rcn4


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## Jetzer (Jan 9, 2017)

Thanks all! That Powell score looks interesting.


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## bennyoschmann (Jan 9, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> i wouldn't say the mozart one is good for this. I mean the violins barely play anything in the high range and it's doing double 16th notes the whole time. Mozart is always boring to me but that's just me.
> 
> anyways: Scriabin's symphony no 1, 2, 3, poem of ecstasy, check them out if you havent.
> 
> Wagner's Die meistersinger overture.




Sorry, I really disagree with that statement. Wagner's and Scriabin's harmonic language is heavily based on chromaticism and Wagner's orchestration works mostly with mixed colours (German Romantic School), whereas Powell/Bergersen pieces work with much more separated colours. Wagner's endless melodies are the opposite of the closed form 8-/16-bar themes you find in Powell/Bergersen pieces. Don't get me wrong, the pieces you've mentioned are brilliant compositions, but muscially they are working in a totally different way.

I think the examples posted by @WhiteNoiz are excellent. John Powell also has a lot of British qualities in his harmonies. Definitely check out "Jupiter" (and all the other movements) from Gustav Holst's "The Planets", which is probably the most influential work for most film composers.


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## ctsai89 (Jan 9, 2017)

bennyoschmann said:


> Sorry, I really disagree with that statement. Wagner's and Scriabin's harmonic language is heavily based on chromaticism and Wagner's orchestration works mostly with mixed colours (German Romantic School), whereas Powell/Bergersen pieces work with much more separated colours. Wagner's endless melodies are the opposite of the closed form 8-/16-bar themes you find in Powell/Bergersen pieces. Don't get me wrong, the pieces you've mentioned are brilliant compositions, but muscially they are working in a totally different way.
> 
> I think the examples posted by @WhiteNoiz are excellent. John Powell also has a lot of British qualities in his harmonies. Definitely check out "Jupiter" (and all the other movements) from Gustav Holst's "The Planets", which is probably the most influential work for most film composers.



actually i have an idea what you're saying but can you clarify what you mean by separated colors or mixed colors just in case? 

I don't really segregate different kinds of orchestration so I can't care about the difference as long as it works well. 

But really I was only pointing out that strings playing fast 16th notes is not hard to "write" at all. You pretty much won't even have to worry about bowings. 

The hardest thing for non string players about writing for strings, is when it comes to soaring melodic passages with legatos.

if you can write for strings as well as Scriabin or Wagner (and other late romantic composers) has written, then you pretty much have all the knowledge for scoring for strings. 

Powell and Bergersen's string writings aren't just limited to fast tremolo, staccatos and the stuff they almost always do in baroque/classical era. Though more often times than not they do lean towards that style. 

http://media.soundsonline.com/mp3/2466_Soaring-Over-Hollywood.mp3


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## tonaliszt (Jan 9, 2017)

IIRC, Bergersen has stated that Mahler is a large influence on his FFF orchestrations.


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## bennyoschmann (Jan 10, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> actually i have an idea what you're saying but can you clarify what you mean by separated colors or mixed colors just in case?
> 
> I don't really segregate different kinds of orchestration so I can't care about the difference as long as it works well.



Not sure what the English equivalents are, but in German we distinguish "Spaltklang" and "Mischklang". Spaltklang is exactly what you hear in the Mozart example: The choir is doing the melody (in chords), the woodwinds and the trombones are playing the harmonies, trumpets and timpani accentuate and play these fanfareish figure, the strings are providing the rhythmic motor. All the individual functions in the orchestration are clearly separated from each other by different colors. Of course there can be doublings, but they are kept relatively simple.

In contrast Wagner's orchestrations uses a lot more mixed colors for the individual functions (Mischklang). He often uses thick doublings (e.g. Violins 1 + English Horn + Clarinet 1 + Horn 1 for one line, Violas + Clarinet 2 + Horn 3 for another line) and constantly changes them. Also his harmony voicings are often interlocked instead of stacked, resulting in a warm and thick, but blurry sound with less contours.

I think the Bergersen piece - as most film music btw. - stands more in that first tradition (Spaltklang) with clearly separated colors for the different functions and rather simple doublings leading to a transparent sound with strong contours. Even if the harmonic language is a totally different one and the variety of articulations is much wider than in the Mozart piece, both pieces share a lot of similarities in how the orchestration is organized.


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## trumpoz (Jan 10, 2017)

To add to the comment on Holst's The Planets the score is relatively cheap. If you ever need to know what the chord for blowing up the Death Star is - it is found in Mars.


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## ctsai89 (Jan 10, 2017)

bennyoschmann said:


> Not sure what the English equivalents are, but in German we distinguish "Spaltklang" and "Mischklang". Spaltklang is exactly what you hear in the Mozart example: The choir is doing the melody (in chords), the woodwinds and the trombones are playing the harmonies, trumpets and timpani accentuate and play these fanfareish figure, the strings are providing the rhythmic motor. All the individual functions in the orchestration are clearly separated from each other by different colors. Of course there can be doublings, but they are kept relatively simple.
> 
> In contrast Wagner's orchestrations uses a lot more mixed colors for the individual functions (Mischklang). He often uses thick doublings (e.g. Violins 1 + English Horn + Clarinet 1 + Horn 1 for one line, Violas + Clarinet 2 + Horn 3 for another line) and constantly changes them. Also his harmony voicings are often interlocked instead of stacked, resulting in a warm and thick, but blurry sound with less contours.
> 
> I think the Bergersen piece - as most film music btw. - stands more in that first tradition (Spaltklang) with clearly separated colors for the different functions and rather simple doublings leading to a transparent sound with strong contours. Even if the harmonic language is a totally different one and the variety of articulations is much wider than in the Mozart piece, both pieces share a lot of similarities in how the orchestration is organized.




thanks for explaining.

In my opinion though, grouping diffferent kinds of orchestration in different categories, especially in our times, can limit one's orchestration abilities. 

It's not surprising that Wagner's orchestration would be more complex, since he learned from the past for things that have already been done. And therefore his orchestration don't only involve the simple kind but a more advanced kind altogether.

it wouldn't hurt, to study some of the later romantic orchestrations when in fact Mahler (a Wagnerian, Scriabin is also a Wagnerian) had been one of Bergersen's inspiration.


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## mike_solar (Jan 10, 2017)

I've always heard a touch of Vaughan Williams sound in John Powell's work. For a reference to HTTYD, and available for score study (note there are versions for both full orchestra and band):


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## Jetzer (Jan 12, 2017)

Thanks @mike_solar


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## Mars (Jan 13, 2017)

I was listening to the London Symphony from Vaughan Williams yesterday, and immediately thought about this topic. 
Luckily, the score is also available, and it's cheap :


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## bennyoschmann (Jan 14, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> thanks for explaining.
> 
> In my opinion though, grouping diffferent kinds of orchestration in different categories, especially in our times, can limit one's orchestration abilities.
> 
> ...



I never said one should limit on just one style of orchestration, but the @Jesse Heslinga asked specifically for something similar to the posted example. I just can't hear a lot of Wagnerian traits in this example (& John Powell's scores), whether it is orchestration, harmony, melody or structure.

Also, orchestration is not about how big your palette of colors is, but rather how you organize your colors. Therefore grouping different kinds of "organization concepts" can be indeed very useful. 

Of course it wouldn't hurt to study some Wagner and other Wagnerian composers, but their orchestration is often so inseparable with their concept of harmony and melody that it is really difficult to adapt their style of orchestration to one's own work. A more easily accessible style of orchestration from the romantic era - which serves way more as a role model for most film scores orchestration-wise IMO - is the Russian school, all above Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov.


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 14, 2017)

bennyoschmann said:


> Of course it wouldn't hurt to study some Wagner and other Wagnerian composers, but their orchestration is often so inseparable with their concept of harmony and melody that it is really difficult to adapt their style of orchestration to one's own work. A more easily accessible style of orchestration from the romantic era - which serves way more as a role model for most film scores orchestration-wise IMO - is the Russian school, all above Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov.



Well, no offense but that isn't true. You can adopt _any_ style to your own vision, even if it seems at first diametrically opposed to it. Where there's a will there's a way. What you said could be applied to pretty much any of the great composers, really. All respect, but perhaps you didn't think that one out enough. Meant in a friendly way, btw.

If you worry to much about what to read for scores, you're just taking time away from your studies.

You can pick up and apply all kinds of things for film composition from Wagner's scores (though a Wagnerian myself, I recommend Gustav Mahler and Richard Strauss first for orchestration, as things naturally changed in terms of orchestration after Wagner's time...John Williams is a great one to check out for even more modern orchestration, if you can afford the scores).

And don't forget about how the synth, Rock drum kit, and electric guitar (for just a few examples) have been incorporated into modern day orchestral writing; checking out Zimmer's "Man of Steel" or "Dark Knight Rises" scores can really help in that area (there are also inexpensive editions of those latter works that work fine for education).

I recommend first getting the monumental The Study of Orchestration by Samuel Adler. It is simply one of the (if not THE) bible on orchestration, and the kind of high price will pay off for you again and again over the years. Get that book before anything if you're a relative novice.

So, a succinct list:

1) Adler
2) Richard Strauss "Salome"
3) Gustav Mahler Symphony no. 6
4) Richard Wagner "Tristan und Isolde"
5) John Williams (pick your favorite)
6) Jerry Goldsmith " " "
6) Zimmer...

it might be a big help to just go watch the classics by John Carpenter, you might be surprised at how you can pick stuff up just by listening to the movies. Williams (and his cohorts like the excellent Morricone) tend toward the minimal-but-often-devastatingly-effective. Besides, Zimmer has been forthright concerning his influence from John.

In fact, generally become more mindful of the scores when you watch movies, because that kind of conscientious listening can be quite rewarding in itself.


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## bennyoschmann (Jan 14, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> Well, no offense but that isn't true. You can adopt _any_ style to your own vision, even if it seems at first diametrically opposed to it. Where there's a will there's a way. What you said could be applied to pretty much any of the great composers, really. All respect, but perhaps you didn't think that one out enough. Meant in a friendly way, btw.



I probably didn't phrase that well enough. Sure I agree that you can learn something from any score/composer, but it's something different to just pick up a few favourite instrument combinations or to really understand how a composer thinks orchestrationally. In my opinion in Wagner's case this is more difficult to get, because his orchestration is so inseparably linked to the other musical parameters - more than the orchestration of any other composer I can think of. So what I simply meant is that there are more easily accessible composers than Wagner in terms of orchestration. If you already did some orchestration studies, Wagner is totally fine and will expand your horizon, but if you just started to learn orchestration, you can get overwhelmed quickly. In my opinion there are simply much quicker and more efficient ways to learn that certain style of orchestration, which @Jesse Heslinga is looking for.


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