# How to compose for flute and piano



## Frankly-h (Jan 11, 2015)

Hi,
I'm trying to write for flute and piano without using any samples. I sit behind the piano and compose, and I have some ideas about what I want the flute to do over a particular phrase or progression but it is really difficult to "hear" the flute as well.
Any ideas?
P.S.
I'm not going to use any samples before the composition is over.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 11, 2015)

Frankly-h @ Sun Jan 11 said:


> Hi,
> I'm trying to write for flute and piano without using any samples. I sit behind the piano and compose, and I have some ideas about what I want the flute to do over a particular phrase or progression but it is really difficult to "hear" the flute as well.
> Any ideas?
> P.S.
> I'm not going to use any samples before the composition is over.



Buy and repeatedly listen to something like Rampal's recordings, (with Stern, Accardo, and Rostopovich) of the Mozart Flute Quartets. 

Do that enough and you will never have that problem again.


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## bbunker (Jan 11, 2015)

Easy! Here's my patented, three-step formula:

Write something. Give it to a flautist, and listen to what comes out. Compare with what you had in mind. Repeat...a lot.

Have fun...


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 11, 2015)

bbunker @ Sun Jan 11 said:


> Easy! Here's my patented, three-step formula:
> 
> Write something. Give it to a flautist, and listen to what comes out. Compare with what you had in mind. Repeat...a lot.
> 
> Have fun...



Depends on how good the flautist is


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## bbunker (Jan 11, 2015)

Jay,

LOL!

You must have met some of the musicians I've worked with.


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## Frankly-h (Jan 11, 2015)

@ bbunker, I don't have the luxury of hiring live players before the piece is over, so that is out of question.

@Jay, thanks, but I'm looking for duets.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 11, 2015)

Frankly-h @ Sun Jan 11 said:


> @ bbunker, I don't have the luxury of hiring live players before the piece is over, so that is out of question.
> 
> @Jay, thanks, but I'm looking for duets.



It doesn't matter, it is the sound of the flute you want to get in your inner ear.

That said, Poulenc wrote a lovely sonata for flute and piano.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3heLhtGQpJk


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## bbunker (Jan 11, 2015)

This should keep you busy for...oh, the next lifetime:

http://imslp.org/index.php?title=Category:For_flute,_continuo&transclude=Template:Catintro


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## Frankly-h (Jan 11, 2015)

Oh, yes. Love that one. Prokofiev's is fantastic as well.


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## Frankly-h (Jan 11, 2015)

Haha. Good one!


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## Mahlon (Jan 12, 2015)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Jan 11 said:


> It doesn't matter, it is the sound of the flute you want to get in your inner ear.
> 
> That said, Poulenc wrote a lovely sonata for flute and piano.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3heLhtGQpJk



Ah, yes, Poulenc. That's a great one.

Mahlon


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## Mahlon (Jan 12, 2015)

And you can't go wrong with Phillipe Gaubert if you're liking the Frenchies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-094GAiZ3a4

Mahlon


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## Dave Connor (Jan 12, 2015)

I've always liked the Hindimith: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfegCvpSM5g

Since you're writing for a single monophonic instrument and piano you're only faced with an 'accompaniment and melody situation' which is one of the most rudimentary things one can do in composition. You can almost ignore what the solo instrument is and just write melodically as long as range issues are considered. You can research the instrument's idiomatic history but even that is almost unnecessary.


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## bbunker (Jan 12, 2015)

I don't know, Dave, there's simple resources in two instruments, but surely not JUST accompaniment and melody, right? I mean in the Schubert Sonatina (for Violin, not flute, of course!):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqE78gELzWw

By the time we get to the development section, the texture has included complete Monody with both instruments playing in unison, a 'traditional' soloist playing melody accompanied by accompanimental texture (but with a countermelody from that accompanist!), more unison playing, the piano playing the melody while playing accompanying chords in the left hand while the soloist plays a countermelody, and piano playing the melody while the soloist plays accompanimental chords. Well, that last one isn't an option for flute, but...

I'm being a bit contrary, but for me, one of the biggest challenges, and the biggest thrills in pieces for two instruments, is exploring all of the diversity of texture possible with two musicians. I mean, there's a whole little world of possibilities in combining flute and piano, why not use it?!?


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## Dave Connor (Jan 12, 2015)

bbunker, I was addressing the challenge that our friend was seeming to voice. As far as a compositional challenge, this is a very basic one where the composer is writing a tune with accompaniment. Very often music by the masters is simply transcribed for another instrument (from one wind to another for example or a string instrument in one register transcribed to string or even other instrument in another register.) 

My point is that melody and accompaniment is a basic compositional form where the melodic material could be played on any number of musical instruments historically. The choice of writing and exploiting the characteristics of a specific instrument may be another matter but even so this is not a daunting task. One could in fact write a piece for melody and accompaniment and decide what the melodic instrument is going to be later and make adjustments. Or write it for a specific instrument and swap it for another later. The literature is flooded with examples of this principle. In the end I was just saying not to worry about it; write a nice tune and accompaniment.


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## bbunker (Jan 12, 2015)

Sorry, Dave...I think I misunderstood you a bit there. You've sure got a point - how many pieces from the 19th century say something along the lines of "Divertimento for Flute or Violin or Oboe or Twelve-reeded-apfelhorn and piano?!?"


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## Dave Connor (Jan 12, 2015)

bbunker @ Mon Jan 12 said:


> Sorry, Dave...I think I misunderstood you a bit there. You've sure got a point - how many pieces from the 19th century say something along the lines of "Divertimento for Flute or Violin or Oboe or Twelve-reeded-apfelhorn and piano?!?"



This is about 19th century composition practice? That eliminates at least two centuries worth of compositions in which the piece would in fact be for keyboard and "treble instrument." Incredibly common back then and still incredibly common today which is why Marching Bands play Michael Jackson songs and millions of people instantly recognize them. Why? Because it's a tune on top of chords i.e. the compositional thought and impulse was basic and translates into other instrumentation. The compositional thought behind a piano and flute or piano and oboe or piano and clarinet piece is just not that far apart. It is also simpler than a woodwind quintet, chamber symphony or piece for choir and percussion because far more compositional elements are involved by the increased number of instruments. I don't say easier I say simpler than….

Samuel Barber's most famous work, Adagio for Strings seems like a stunningly insightful work for string instruments. It is a transcription of a choral piece he wrote. What that means is that the original compositional thought was not limited to any instrumentation but was far more the application of a science to a form involving the range of the human voice. My point is (once again) that the thought behind a piano and treble instrument is similar enough as to be almost interchangeable and indeed one of the simpler forms to write for.


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## bbunker (Jan 12, 2015)

Sorry, Dave, but I had been agreeing with you by calling out a specific historical practice. I thought it was clear when I was referencing the habit of a lot of lesser composers of the late 19th century to list a whole range of instruments who the piece was ostensibly for, that it was a specific example of the general flexibility of instrumentation in that genre of pieces.

In listing one specific example, I hadn't intended to have ruled out anything else. I didn't somehow mean to suggest that the OP was interested only in the performance practice of the late 19th century. I thought that was relatively clear when one of my first posts was to suggest a whole page of flute and continuo pieces. Sorry for the confusion!

In a subtle irony, I've been working most of this evening in transcribing an art song I wrote last year into a version for winds and voice for a performance next month. If you're looking for someone to suggest that there are hard and fast restrictions on instrumentation in chamber music then I'm probably not your guy. 

I still would kind of disagree that a work for piano and solo instrument is one of the simplest or easiest to write for. That seems kind of like saying that chess is one of the easiest games to play, since the rules are simple - it's the sophisticated and cultured way that the voices interact (or that the player develops a strategy, in the analogy) that provides the work with the gravitas of the sublime.


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## Dave Connor (Jan 12, 2015)

bbunker @ Mon Jan 12 said:


> Sorry, Dave, but I had been agreeing with you by calling out a specific historical practice. I thought it was clear when I was referencing the habit of a lot of lesser composers of the late 19th century to list a whole range of instruments who the piece was ostensibly for, that it was a specific example of the general flexibility of instrumentation in that genre of pieces. .


Oh man, I really thought you were joking! So there is a piece like that? Funny! 

I was referring to the general sense one has in approaching a piece; so piano and this or piano and that is the same general approach in that sense. Now, writing idiomatically for an instrument such as piano and oboe is indeed a world apart when it comes to the finer things of oboe vrs., clarinet but you're still managing a single melodic line agains a piano etc. Your point was totally valid and I didn't mean to invalidate it. I was only saying I had valid point as well I thought.

We're Good! : )


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## bbunker (Jan 12, 2015)

All good indeed, Dave!

It's about time to put on some Bach and grab whatever Ale is chilling in the fridge.

It struck me how a good way to learn how to write for flute might be to look at arrangements of pieces originally for other instruments that have been transcribed for flute - since you can see where octaves have been changed, where they've changed the key of the piece to better fit, that kind of thing. Like reverse-engineering!


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## Frankly-h (Jan 18, 2015)

It's a bit more difficult than melody and accompaniment for me, Dave. I'm not really interested in melodic structures that shape the piano's harmonic structure. I like doing it the other way around, however, the piece is not really melodic. That is why I have some difficulty. It's getting better though. Making progress steadily, but rather slowly!


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