# DAW alternatives Notion, Overture, Dorico?



## Paul T McGraw

After years of praying for a true notation based alternative to a DAW, finally we have (or are about to have) multiple alternatives. HURRAH! I have tried using a DAW, two of them in fact, and I just don't like them. I like working with notation.

I use Sibelius, and I really like Sibelius, for notation. I really appreciate the NotePerformer soundset for Sibelius. NotePerformer rekindled my interest in compositing as a hobby. But I want to be able to use my Vienna Symphonic Library instruments and other VST instruments. And I want to be able to use multiple libraries in one score. But doing so is anything but easy or versatile for me in Sibelius. As a result I am seriously considering alternatives to Sibelius. Obviously I am not alone, because we are about to have THREE alternatives for Notation oriented users.

*Notion 6* has been released and looks awesome in many ways. It has a "sequencer overlay" view that seems to offer lots of DAW like editing within a notation framework, and it appears to be tightly integrated with the Presonus Studio One DAW if one wants to go that route. It has the giant advantages of being available right now, and being backed up by a well established company with a history of making steady feature improvements. Negatives - not sure, but has Notion had difficulty in getting users to consider it a "pro" level competitor?

*Overture 5*, is currently available in Beta form, and seems to have attracted a loyal following. It is a very feature rich program that also offers full VST support and MIDI editing within the score. If everything will work as planned, it seems to offer everything I could want. Negatives - still in Beta, and I think (I may be wrong) it is a one man show, so if something happens to the developer, no more fixes or improvements.

*Dorico* is yet to be released. It will have some DAW like features. But the exact release date could be pushed back and the primary focus of the development team seems to be high level music publishing, not composing and playback. Negatives - I am 63 and I don't want to wait. I want a "better for me" software solution right now.

For me, money is not an issue. The prices are low, $150 for Notion to $250 for Overture, and perhaps $500 for Dorico. Which compared to a few new instrument libraries is really cheap. The issue is where to invest my time. I still have to work full time and meet family obligations. I would like to spend my limited music time composing, but I also want to hear what I compose with great sound. I don't have time to buy both Overture and Notion and learn to use them, then decide which is better. I don't want to wait for Dorico. Who knows if it will be released this year or not?

So HELP! Anyone tried both Overture and Notion? Any advice or comments would be appreciated.


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## d.healey

Don't forget Reaper - It's notation feature is actively being developed and considering it had no notation at all a year ago they have made incredibly fast progress and are good at responding to user suggestions and feedback


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## Vik

Paul T McGraw said:


> I have tried using a DAW, two of them in fact, and I just don't like them.


Which DAWs did you try that you didn't like? I ask because it seems to be an agreement here about Cubase being the best DAW for use with orcs. libraries, and also - it's worth noting that Dorico will get Expressions Maps, some kind of Mixer and Piano roll etc. 

"After years of praying for a true notation based alternative to a DAW..."
I know what you mean. "Nobody" wants to keep switching back between a notation program and a DAW. My assumption is that Dorico will get good integration with Cubase after a while, and maybe some kind of interfacing with other DAWs are planned as well. That would be a good idea.


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## Paul T McGraw

Vik said:


> Which DAWs did you try that you didn't like? I ask because it seems to be an agreement here about Cubase being the best DAW for use with orcs. libraries, and also - it's worth noting that Dorico will get Expressions Maps, some kind of Mixer and Piano roll etc.



I have purchased and tried to use both Cubase and Sonar. I have no technical complaints about either program. I simply don't like the fact that they are not notation based. They both seem to do what they are supposed to do. It is a personal preference for notation.

Dorico has been so long in development that I am suspicious that actual retail release may be delayed. As a business move, the publisher could be dangling the release of Dorico out there to keep people like me from committing to another solution. Overture 5 in particular seems to have all of the playback and VST integration that Dorico promises. But perhaps I am being cynical.


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## Vik

There's some information here. 
https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=246&t=100753&start=25#p557919
They plan to release it in Q4 this year, which for me is so soon that I wouldn't buy something else before that. Remember, time runs fast for oldies like us.


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## InLight-Tone

Vik said:


> "After years of praying for a true notation based alternative to a DAW..."
> I know what you mean. "Nobody" wants to keep switching back between a notation program and a DAW. My assumption is that Dorico will get good integration with Cubase after a while, and maybe some kind of interfacing with other DAWs are planned as well. That would be a good idea.



Steinberg better step it up with the recent upgrades to Studio One and Notion laying their foundation for integration, though primitive at present...


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## pinki

There is a demo of Overture. If you are on a Mac I would urge caution as it is not ready yet.


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## dcoscina

The last overture update is solid on Mac. I've had no crashes since I updated


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## Paul T McGraw

dcoscina said:


> The last overture update is solid on Mac. I've had no crashes since I updated



I use a PC. Do you, as an Overture user, think that it is difficult to learn to use Overture? I have become so accustomed to using Sibelius that I no long even plug in my midi keyboard. I just type in my ideas on the keyboard.


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## dtcomposer

I think you should wait for Dorico. I've been following it closely, and it looks to be a better version of Overture/Notion as far as midi is concerned, and a MUCH better option for making a professional score. That, and the eventual tie-in to Cubase workflows in future versions makes it a pretty attractive option if you are going to pick up a new program.

I was not very impressed at all with Overture or Notion when I tried them out. Dorico also has a crossgrade price around $250 or so for owners of Sibelius if I remember correctly.


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## Maximvs

Dorico may not have all the bells and whistles in the playback and VST integration from the outset. I have been looking at Overture 5 with great interest and the soon to be released major 5.1 update will be a considerable step forward for O5.


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## Guillermo Navarrete

Hello, 

Well, the first Beta of Dorico is out, you can subscribe and if you get accepted you could experience first hand if the software is for you or not: 

https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=246&t=100753

Best regards,
GN


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## ModalRealist

@Guillermo Navarrete is it possible for you to say whether Dorico will allow editing MIDI CCs with a graphical interface? (I.e. painting them into the CC lane as in Cubase.)

The official screenshots show a piano roll editor - for tweaking MIDI note lengths, I'm guessing. If one can also draw in CC curves then, for me, Dorico will be a no-brainer.


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## Paul T McGraw

Steinberg has invested a lot of money in creating Dorico. They have been paying the salaries of the software development team, plus rent, plus overhead for about 5 years now. I can't imagine Steinberg failing to fully support the product and invest in future upgrades, fixes and improvements. That, to me, is the biggest reason to give it full consideration.

With that said, I really question when the program will actually be released, and how long it will be before the features I would most want are included. For example, the creation of midi CC curves, as @ModalRealist posted, and other parameters, such as easy handling of keyswitch notes, may or may not be addressed in the initial release. And I hate the "piano roll". Why not show the midi data with an actual staff? And the emphasis on high level publishing as the first priority worries me.

The lack of tutorial videos and videos of actual workflow is really annoying. There are a few Notion videos, but what I have seen in the videos is the biggest reason I don't just give it a try. Trying to use Vienna Ensemble within Notion looks incredibly cumbersome. I understand why Overture 5 has no videos yet. It is just one guy, or perhaps a very small team. But there is no reason why Dorico could not have plenty of videos out, IF the program features are finalized and they are truly preparing for retail release in a very short time.


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## dcoscina

Overture is said to have a built in library of sounds coming out this Fall. Until then, I still maintain Notion succeeds over any other composition program because its sound/articulations are transparent. The composer simply needs to indicate a slur, or playing technique and the program will automatically select and play it. No assigning MIDI channels or patches to a staff/instrument, bla bla bla. I used Note Performer with Sibelius 7 for a while but it didn't have the breadth of techniques Notion has. I mean Notion has metered tremolo, trills up to a perfect 4th, etc. It might not be super realistic but it's enough to give the composer a sense of the coloration of what they are after. But different strokes for different folks.


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## dcoscina

Paul T McGraw said:


> I use a PC. Do you, as an Overture user, think that it is difficult to learn to use Overture? I have become so accustomed to using Sibelius that I no long even plug in my midi keyboard. I just type in my ideas on the keyboard.


Overture has a bit of the old Passport Encore GUI in it which is what I cut my teeth on in the 90s so it's not a problem for me but honestly, I still prefer Notion. I mostly just deal with note input and can forget all the DAW stuff until I need to export a Notion file into DP9 or Cubase 8.5


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## Paul T McGraw

dcoscina said:


> Overture has a bit of the old Passport Encore GUI in it which is what I cut my teeth on in the 90s so it's not a problem for me but honestly, I still prefer Notion. I mostly just deal with note input and can forget all the DAW stuff until I need to export a Notion file into DP9 or Cubase 8.5



Thank you for posting this. So you still need to export into a DAW. This is exactly what I would hope the new generation of notation programs would avoid, the necessity of importing into a DAW for a better rendering of the composition.


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## Guillermo Navarrete

Hello,



ModalRealist said:


> @Guillermo Navarrete is it possible for you to say whether Dorico will allow editing MIDI CCs with a graphical interface? (I.e. painting them into the CC lane as in Cubase.)
> 
> The official screenshots show a piano roll editor - for tweaking MIDI note lengths, I'm guessing. If one can also draw in CC curves then, for me, Dorico will be a no-brainer.



The following thread might answer your question: https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=246&t=97360 Until now I haven't find myself the time to really get to know the software, as the Beta has not been available so long. 

A quote from Daniel on that thread: 



> The intention is that you will indeed be able to draw controller curves in the automation lanes for each instrument in Play mode, yes.



@Paul T McGraw Dorico has only been in development for 3 years, not 5 and it actually has not arrived to the 3 year mark. And it will be delivered on the Q4 of this year. 

Best regards,
GN


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## Paul T McGraw

Thanks for your responses @Guillermo Navarrete and I appreciate your viewpoint. Are you an official spokesperson for Steinberg? I ask because I notice you use a Steinberg logo for your photo.

I was curious about exactly how long it has been since Steinberg hired the Sibelius team, so I did a little research. Avid fired the Sibelius team in the summer of 2012, four years ago. Stories that Steinberg had hired the entire Sibelius team began to circulate in November 2012, and Spreadbury created his first blog post about creating the new software on February 20,2013. So my memory was off. Not five years, more like 3.5 or so years so far. Still, that is a big investment by Steinberg, which is a good thing, not a bad thing.

Fourth Quarter is just 32 days away at this point. With Dorico only now doing public Beta tests. I hope you are correct that it will be released in the 4th quarter.


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## Guillermo Navarrete

Hello,



Paul T McGraw said:


> Thanks for your responses @Guillermo Navarrete and I appreciate your viewpoint. Are you an official spokesperson for Steinberg? I ask because I notice you use a Steinberg logo for your photo.
> 
> Fourth Quarter is just 32 days away at this point. With Dorico only now doing public Beta tests. I hope you are correct that it will be released in the 4th quarter.



Yes I am, as stated on my signature. 

Best regards,
GN


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## Haakond

I bought Notion 6 the day it was released, so I have used it for some days on my computer. Used Sibelius 7.5 until now. Notion is much quicker and easier to use, and PreSonus also have a Notion iOS app for iPhone and iPad (I don´t know if there is a Android version), so you can compose on your computer, and continue on your mobile device (works really good). I find it also much easier to put in articulations too, as each instrument has its own articulation page. Notion lacks of some instruments that Sibelius had, like recorder and other ethnic, but features the most used orchestral and band instruments. 

Sibelius has more options on the layout, which I find the biggest disadvantage on Notion. 
I have not tried to link Notion to Logic with rewire yet, so I can´t comment on this.


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## Elephant

dcoscina said:


> Overture is said to have a built in library of sounds coming out this Fall. Until then, I still maintain Notion succeeds over any other composition program because its sound/articulations are transparent. The composer simply needs to indicate a slur, or playing technique and the program will automatically select and play it. No assigning MIDI channels or patches to a staff/instrument, bla bla bla.



Precisely. For people who want audio feedback from their scores, that is pretty vital. The Sib inbuilt playback leaves quite a bit to be desired, but at least it has (at least as far as I can tell with the articulations I use) that transparency. If anyone is aware of any other library/soundset combination that also has that transparency but that sounds a bit better, I would love to know. (I have tried NP btw) Unless something interesting turns up, I am sticking with Sib until I can trial Dorico.

Thanks !


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## JonFairhurst

Yeah, Note Performer improves Sibelius greatly, but it's really for hearing your compositions, rather than for creating great recordings. I'm still of the mind that great recordings need to be "performed." Maybe this means playing it in. Maybe it means making fine adjustments, note by note, with a mouse. Maybe it's played in and cleaned up. While a computer may be able to make things sound human, unless it can read your mind, it can't perform things the way that you'd perform things.

As an example, think of a good pianist playing Fur Elise. One piano teacher might stress the metronome and try to get the student to play regularly. Still, the human element will emerge. Another teacher might stress expression as the tempo rolls like a series of waterfalls: the two note pattern slows and builds anticipation until the faster notes accelerate down the face of the cliff. Where are you on this spectrum? And what is the chance that the computer would know and be able to emulate your personal style?

Anyway, it's good to know if the goal is to simply get aural feedback, to demonstrate a composition with a simple rendering, or to deliver an end product.


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## Vavastrasza

I use Notion as my main music creation program. It's worth mentioning that it's highly unstable. For me, it crashes constantly. I've got into the habit of saving scores I'm working on every time I add a few notes. Of course I can't rule out the possibility that something in my specific computer set-up is causing this, but I have heard similar comments from some other users. The transition from 5 to 6 doesn't seem to have changed anything with regards to this crash-prone quality.

For that reason, I've been looking for alternatives. I demoed Finale and Sibelius but neither handles screen scaling properly. Their GUIs were microscopic on my screen. Notion is better, although VST GUIs look much smaller in Notion 6 than Notion 5. (Presonus have promised to fix this, however). Using VSTs with them also seemed more problematical.

For these reasons I've stuck with Notion for now, but I will certainly be taking a close look at Dorico once it is released.


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## InLight-Tone

Dorico indeed looks great and I'm sure it will be a well done app. The problem with it, is that it may take eons before they integrate it into Cubase which would be my wish and probably many others...


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## Guillermo Navarrete

Hello, 

For the OP, Dorico will be available next week, so you will not have to wait that long  in case you have not made up your mind. 

Best regards,
GN


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## dcoscina

Vavastrasza said:


> I use Notion as my main music creation program. It's worth mentioning that it's highly unstable. For me, it crashes constantly. I've got into the habit of saving scores I'm working on every time I add a few notes. Of course I can't rule out the possibility that something in my specific computer set-up is causing this, but I have heard similar comments from some other users. The transition from 5 to 6 doesn't seem to have changed anything with regards to this crash-prone quality.
> 
> For that reason, I've been looking for alternatives. I demoed Finale and Sibelius but neither handles screen scaling properly. Their GUIs were microscopic on my screen. Notion is better, although VST GUIs look much smaller in Notion 6 than Notion 5. (Presonus have promised to fix this, however). Using VSTs with them also seemed more problematical.
> 
> For these reasons I've stuck with Notion for now, but I will certainly be taking a close look at Dorico once it is released.


What platform are you using Notion on? Once in a while it crashes but I haven't had too many issues with it except it doesn't like some of my input MIDI keyboards like my PC3x and Korg Microkey 37....which is odd. Other than that, it's not too bad. I also own Overture 5 but haven't really delved into it fully yet. I am still awaiting their integrated library release. I like to hear what I'm composing for instant feedback and while Notion's sound set isn't perfect, it's got a ton of sampled arts which give it an advantage over many other notation programs insofar as the compositional process is concerned. 

If Dorico turns out to be as good as I think it will, I will probably use that for my finished scores but will still compose into Notion partly because it exists on multiple platforms- like iOS- which is really still unprecedented at this point


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## peter5992

To the OP:

I am a Sibelius user (since version 5, currently on 8.4.1) and have Notion 6 as well (since version 4). Notion 6 promised tight integration with DAW, but upon closer view that is disappointing ... there is no synchronization between what you do in your sequencing program, and in your notation program. Not to mention that I find it clunky to use.

When it comes to engraving, I really like Sibelius. Very intuitive to use, and you can work pretty fast. A couple of months ago I was at Skywalker Sound as assistant orchestrator / copyist, we had to orchestra about 30 minutes of music for a medium sized orchestra (1111-2 horns-harp-strings, about 26 players in total if I remember correctly) in less than 24 hours, working off PT sessions / midi sessions we received from the six fellows (Sundance Composer Lab). Total rush but we got it all done in time for the recording session, with no drama (no sleep either). See below. 

http://www.avidblogs.com/sundance-film-composer-lab-at-skywalker-sound/ 

Playback in Sibelius is ok to check notation but obviously not broadcast quality; the NotePerformer plugin is a great improvement (loading is very fast too). For years I've been trying to get better playback with 3rd party VSTs and soundsets but frankly it's a PITA, and the end result is unimpressive. I end up exporting a midi file to Reaper, which is a very nice program by the way. Very useful for film composition / music production. 

But I'm having really very high hopes of Dorico - just released today. The engraving is spectacular (you should have seen the demo, yesterday! surreal) but where it really gets interesting is the playback mode - not in the current edition but in due course it will have a pretty complete "mini DAW" to do what you would normally do in a DAW:

a. use your own VSTs (VST3 only, with a few exceptions) which you can easily select from a dropdown menu similar to Cubase
b. create your own expression maps such that eg dynamics / technique / expression text, is automatically translated into the "correct" midi information to trigger whatever sample you are using (eg dynamics / velocity translated into expression for EastWest's Hollywood Strings powerful system patches)
c. insert effects (EQ, compression, reverb) (this is already in version 1)
d. create busses for separate reverbs 
e. tweak midi note (length but also control messages)

and then, for film, and also in later releases:

a. import video
b. add time code
c. add hit points

If this is going to work the way I think it's going to work, sounds like heaven doesn't it? All done in one program so no need to do everything twice. Well, some stuff probably is too tedious so you may have to export, but 95% of the work can be done in Dorico - I hope. 

This is NOT yet available in the first release, but I have every faith in Daniel and his team -- when it comes to designing notation program they are really the best in the business.


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## Paul T McGraw

@peter5992 thanks for sharing your experiences and your hopes for Dorico. It was fascinating reading about your project. I had high hopes for Dorico, and I sincerely wish your dreams for it will happen.


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## Jos Wylin

dcoscina said:


> What platform are you using Notion on? Once in a while it crashes but I haven't had too many issues with it except it doesn't like some of my input MIDI keyboards like my PC3x and Korg Microkey 37....which is odd. Other than that, it's not too bad. I also own Overture 5 but haven't really delved into it fully yet. I am still awaiting their integrated library release. I like to hear what I'm composing for instant feedback and while Notion's sound set isn't perfect, it's got a ton of sampled arts which give it an advantage over many other notation programs insofar as the compositional process is concerned.
> 
> If Dorico turns out to be as good as I think it will, I will probably use that for my finished scores but will still compose into Notion partly because it exists on multiple platforms- like iOS- which is really still unprecedented at this point



I've been using Notion for some years now (from Notion 2 on and so far I didn't experience many crashes. Once in a while it could happen, but rather seldom. I particularly like the work speed and clear and intuitive interface. The huge instrument library is a blessing to load and work fast, but is not meant or designed to be the end result for a good performance. Now Notion 6 can rewire the entire score in midi to Presonus Studio One 3 in no time. Every single detail is exported in the DAW, so that you can start immediately building a mockup meeting the present day standarts.

So far, I've been using Finale and Notion. Both have great advantages (Finale mainly as engraver and printing program with lots of possibilities of cleaning up parts and scores to a decent presentation; Notion for work speed and LSO instrument integration and performance + now the rewire capabilities towards Studio One.

As to the crashes: Notion is pretty sensible for OS changes. Make sure that you always download the latest Notion version as the Operating System changes, as well as the drivers for external music gear.


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## 5Lives

I too have found Notion to be much faster and more intuitive to work with. It may be more simple than the others, but does what I need. Plus, only one that has handwriting input, which makes it pretty fast - along with the great iPad Pro app (which also supports handwriting input).


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## dcoscina

5Lives said:


> I too have found Notion to be much faster and more intuitive to work with. It may be more simple than the others, but does what I need. Plus, only one that has handwriting input, which makes it pretty fast - along with the great iPad Pro app (which also supports handwriting input).


Agreed. It's music xml export is pretty solid too so in cases where I need greater engraving features, I just import the file to Sibelius 7.5 and finish it off there with minor adjustments


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## Jos Wylin

Indeed, xml is a great function and can solve the minor side of Notion: layout. The layout possibilities are rather limited, but will in most cases just do for live performance.
Another flaw is the lack of playable ornaments. The trills don't always work for all instruments, the mordents are missing completely (despite a lot of feature requests on their forum), but as a whole, Notion is a fine and easy to learn professional notation/playback tool. The combination with Presonus Studio One (3) is a big advantage for detailed performance.


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