# LEAP motion controller update ?



## bcarwell (Jun 22, 2020)

I've been watching several demos lately of the LEAP (gesture) motion controller in conjunction with sample modeling libraries. I must admit they look and sound intriguing but am wondering if they are just gimicky. Amazing things like gesture based bow changes and vibrato control, etc. but wondering if they really sound that good.

Here is but one example:



Could anybody offer up their opinion as to the current status of this approach to the quest for expression and realism ?

Specifically I am wondering:

1) What are the limitations ? Does the LEAP controller only work effectively and convincingly with a limited set of libraries like specific sample modeling libraries only ? Can it be used for example with Spitfire libs ? Is it cheesy ?

2) I had read reports that the software for LEAP was finicky, a little unreliable, a real pain getting consistent results from
gestures, poor documentation, little or no support, etc., etc. ?

3) Steep learning curve such that one should perhaps take up the violin if contemplating purchase (BTW I think around $100 plus
change on Amazon). Or would a TEC breath controller be more usable ?

4) Has it not "caught on", indicating some fundamental flaws ?

Thanks for any input !

Bob


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## bcarwell (Jun 22, 2020)

Here is one for strings:



There are a BUNCH of these demos on YouTube but I've never seen anybody talking about the LEAP on V.I. lately and wonder if its run its course.

Bob


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## bcarwell (Jun 22, 2020)

And one for Woodwinds:


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## bcarwell (Jun 22, 2020)

Here is an interesting one where a pencil is used as a virtual bow demonstrating change of bow:


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## robcs (Jun 22, 2020)

I took delivery of one two days ago! Still getting used to it. I love it so far, but I keep taking all my expression CCs down to zero by accident. If anyone has been using the leap to control volume, expression, and dynamics, I’d love to know what settings you’re using!


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## Thundercat (Jun 22, 2020)

Wow this looks amazing! Wonder why this hasn't gained a lot more traction???


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## Thundercat (Jun 22, 2020)

Can anyone confirm if this works on Mac Catalina? There marketing blurb says it's no longer supported officially on Mac, but that it works with Mac...

Thanks!

Mike


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## robcs (Jun 22, 2020)

Thundercat said:


> Can anyone confirm if this works on Mac Catalina? There marketing blurb says it's no longer supported officially on Mac, but that it works with Mac...
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Mike



I had the same concern, but I’m running Catalina and it gave me no trouble at all. I guess they’ve updated their drivers and forgot to tell anyone!


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## Thundercat (Jun 22, 2020)

robcs said:


> I had the same concern, but I’m running Catalina and it gave me no trouble at all. I guess they’ve updated their drivers and forgot to tell anyone!


Awesome! I’ll prolly pick one up then...

Thanks!


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## Rory (Jun 22, 2020)

Re the video linked in post #2, be careful about purchasing anything made by Roli. Last fall, the financial backers pulled the plug, and two months ago Roli sold JUICE, its most valuable asset, to iLok. As far as I can tell, none of the major U.S. music gear retailers has a Roli Seaboard Rise in stock.


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## el-bo (Jun 22, 2020)

robcs said:


> I had the same concern, but I’m running Catalina and it gave me no trouble at all. I guess they’ve updated their drivers and forgot to tell anyone!



And GECO still works in Catalina?


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## g.c. (Jun 22, 2020)

Aaron Venture with Infinite Brass-Woodwinds is using Leap Motion on his latest Brass update video. I wrote him about this, and he responded very strongly in favor of L.M. I have been warned away from Leap because the company no longer supports it. But since then, I've seen enough to make me want to make the "leap" (see what I did there?) when my schedule clears up enough. 
There is a brand new video on the forum, under DAWS-Cubase, using L.M. with the Chord Pad function in Cubase, another, of how many possible ways to maybe use it.
It seems that the newest version of TEC is on the same kind of technological path with there new head motion unit.
I also remember that when I 1st discovered L.M., it was free.
Look at the Cubase article, as there is a manner of routing L.M.in Cubase that may apply to other Daws.
But be aware that Leap Motion also requires the Geco-App to work (also free from the site), or as of 3 months ago, this was the case.
Please let us know , if you go on with L.M. as to your experiences with it.
Good luck!
g.c.


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## robcs (Jun 22, 2020)

el-bo said:


> And GECO still works in Catalina?


Yup. No problem with that either


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## robcs (Jun 22, 2020)

Just one warning: with two hubs, a USB SSD drive for libraries, my KK S61, a couple of external data drives, and a usb mouse attached, the leap did shut down on the second day (bizarrely it worked fine on day 1). So, you probably have to give it its own usb slot


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## el-bo (Jun 22, 2020)

robcs said:


> Yup. No problem with that either



That's strange! I was sure I'd reas that it was 32-bit. Hmmm....good to know.

Thanks!


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## el-bo (Jun 22, 2020)

robcs said:


> Just one warning: with two hubs, a USB SSD drive for libraries, my KK S61, a couple of external data drives, and a usb mouse attached, the leap did shut down on the second day (bizarrely it worked fine on day 1). So, you probably have to give it its own usb slot



Yup! It does need it's own port. This is the reason I gave up on trying to use it. Having a Macbook with only two usb ports would already have made it very inconvenient. The fact that my Apogee interface also needed it's own port sealed the deal.

Now I don't even use an interface, so that port is free. But I did decide to not bother using the LM as I thought it'd stop working as soon as I am forced into Catalina. Given what you are saying, however, regarding compatibility I might just have to dig it out of the drawer.

Cheers!


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## Pietro (Jun 23, 2020)

I have it, tried it for a month but it ended up in the closet.

Having no tactile feedback is a real problem. You never know what value your hand is currently hovering at. 0 is already a couple of cm above the device. 127? Hard to tell... 40-50cm? There's no real precision. 

I'd say, it's a gimmick. Cool in theory and on videos but it's not something to replace your other controllers with.

- Piotr


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## bcarwell (Jun 23, 2020)

Roli Seaboard Rise still listed at Sweetwater. Yikes, pricey though !

TEC with head gesturing makes me wonder if you’d get dizzy. And how many parameters does the head movement make. Seems the hand gesturing has many nuances- maybe too many to be able to separate them (e.g. some vibrato variance creeping in when you just wanted expression, etc.)

I was concerned about backers dropping out, but LEAP is still sold on Amazon. And it appears there is a decent community for support even if no corporate support. Judging also from the number of YouTube videos, I’d think if you ran into problems there would be somebody out there with a fix.

Thundercat- I too was wondering if it was flawed since it appears that it has not, as you put it, gained a lot of “traction”. And whether that was simply because people don’t know about it OR is it flawed.

Interesting that a few of you bit on it and then shelved it. I guess $100 is not a serious loss but don’t want to jump on it just because of the flashy lights.

Which brings me to my most basic question: in terms of producing an expressive, realistic traditional instrument sound like, say, a solo violin, how good is this thing. Relative to the other approaches which seem more commonly adopted, like faders for CC7,11, modwheel, TEC breath, expression pedals, conventional key switches, Cubase Expression Maps, etc., etc. I am willing to invest the learning curve time with the potential of handling a lot of real time expression in one take with ONE device IF it can produce a decent result. Note I am NOT interested at all in applying it to synths, just conventional orchestration. And inputting via Staffpad, etc. seems tedious.

I have great respect for the folks at Spitfire for example like Christian Henson and what they can produce just riding 3 faders, etc. capturing that much in real time, although I’m sure there’s a lot of post playing programming to achieve their results.

Anyway, thanks for all your input. And I hope the discussion continues for a bit, as I remain on the fence at the moment and its a bit painful on the arse.

Bob


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## el-bo (Jun 23, 2020)

bcarwell said:


> And it appears there is a decent community for support even if no corporate support. Judging also from the number of YouTube videos, I’d think if you ran into problems there would be somebody out there with a fix.



That's fine for enquiries about usage,. However, driver maintenance for OS compatibility is unfortunately well outside the purview of community support.


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## bcarwell (Jun 23, 2020)

Understood. Can anybody confirm


g.c. said:


> Aaron Venture with Infinite Brass-Woodwinds is using Leap Motion on his latest Brass update video. I wrote him about this, and he responded very strongly in favor of L.M. I have been warned away from Leap because the company no longer supports it. But since then, I've seen enough to make me want to make the "leap" (see what I did there?) when my schedule clears up enough.
> There is a brand new video on the forum, under DAWS-Cubase, using L.M. with the Chord Pad function in Cubase, another, of how many possible ways to maybe use it.
> It seems that the newest version of TEC is on the same kind of technological path with there new head motion unit.
> I also remember that when I 1st discovered L.M., it was free.
> ...


 Can't seem to find the video you referenced on the forum using L.M. with the Chord Pad function in Cubase. Could you please post a link ?
And what is the Cubase "article" you are referring to re routing L.M. in Cubase ?

Bob


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## bcarwell (Jun 23, 2020)

Can anybody confirm that L.M. is fully functional in Windows- especially Win 7 on up. Anyone on Win 7 or Win 8 ?

Bob


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## bcarwell (Jun 23, 2020)

I found this for anybody (still) interested: https://www.synthtopia.com/content/...ranging-with-cubase-a-leap-motion-controller/


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## g.c. (Jun 23, 2020)

Sorry to take awhile coming back to you Bob.
Here's that link. It's on the forum under "Your Daw, dated last Saturday.https://vi-control.net/community/threads/cubase-how-to-install-the-leap-motion-controller-and-geco-on-windows-10.94829/
g.c.


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## Bernd keul (Jun 23, 2020)

hello , i made this video with leap Motion and solo violin some years ago :



it is 6 midi cc´s assigned to targets in kontakt , and it works quite good and is very entertaining !

there is a new development :









Digital worlds that feel human | Ultraleap


Our world-leading hand tracking and haptics powers intuitive, touchless gesture control in AR/VR, interactive kiosks, digital out-of-home and automotive.




www.ultraleap.com





it is Leap Motion combined with haptic feedback ( coming from ultrasonic speakers )

just yesterday I contacted the developers , they were very nice , but they don't have a music app ready ... I will post ,when I hear from them ...


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## robcs (Jun 23, 2020)

Bernd keul said:


> hello , i made this video with leap Motion and solo violin some years ago :
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Great playing! I don't see the lack of physical feedback as a problem - to me it seems more of a matter of building up muscle memory, or just listening to the sound for feedback

What were the CC mappings you used?

BTW - have you seen the price of the Stratos? Yikes!


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## bcarwell (Jun 23, 2020)

OMG Bernd. Had NO IDEA of this technology. THANKS for calling it to my attention. For those of you who, like me, may not have heard of it, it solves the problem pointed out by Pietro of not having any tactile feedback with your hands in mid air ! Here are a couple descriptions I pulled up
https://www.ultraleap.com/ and 

Definitely worth following. The musical application implications are astounding to me..

Bob


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## bcarwell (Jun 23, 2020)

Yikes ! Only price I saw for the haptics controller was .... $7500 (no, I am not missing a decimal place between the 5 and the 0). Has to come down a few orders of magnitude for the great unwashed like me, although chump change to Hans...

Bob


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## shawnsingh (Jun 23, 2020)

I too am very interested in leap+geco. But I'm hesitant to become heavily dependent on it, only to have it stop working in a year if there is not enough active maintenance.

Is it still required to use the old v2 version of leap? (Does V2 refer to leap drivers?) Or, is it now possible to use the latest version of leap hardware and software with geco?


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## robcs (Jun 23, 2020)

shawnsingh said:


> I too am very interested in leap+geco. But I'm hesitant to become heavily dependent on it, only to have it stop working in a year if there is not enough active maintenance.
> 
> Is it still required to use the old v2 version of leap? (Does V2 refer to leap drivers?) Or, is it now possible to use the latest version of leap hardware and software with geco?



I bought my Leap a week ago, and downloaded geco at the weekend, so it seems the latest versions of everything are working


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## Mystic (Jun 23, 2020)

So it's essentially a more modern Roland D-Beam? The problem with that tech was always accuracy. You can get used to using it but you still run into issues which, in recording, can cause a lot of time reediting everything that needs fixed and in live settings, can cause unwanted results because you move the wrong way.

They were always fun to mess with but I'm not sure I'd use one in a professional setting.


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## shawnsingh (Jun 23, 2020)

robcs said:


> I bought my Leap a week ago, and downloaded geco at the weekend, so it seems the latest versions of everything are working



Just to be totally clear, did you install v1.2 or v1.4 for leap? 

I'm reading this link - https://developer.leapmotion.com/setup/desktop that strongly hints that apps that requires 1.2 are legacy and not going to be actively supported. But then geco website still says it may not work with 1.4 (https://gallery.leapmotion.com/geco-midi/), and looks like it hasn't been actively maintained for a few years. I wonder if there is any fundamental reason that geco may not work with 1.4? Or is it just a matter of limited resources, and doesn't really need too much maintenance?

Thanks!


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## bcarwell (Jun 24, 2020)

Roland D-Beam ? I am constantly amazed at the depth of knowledge and history represented in this forum. Supports the adage there is nothing new under the sun. I was clueless what it was, so had to find out:







__





D-Beam - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





It was in a bunch of Roland equipment. And as Mystic pointed out it was less "modern" (trans.: apparently only controlled one parameter of choice). I don't see the point and what it gained over a simple fader or wheel other than a "golly gee whiz" factor. LEAP appears to be a different story...

Bob


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## Mystic (Jun 24, 2020)

bcarwell said:


> It was in a bunch of Roland equipment. And as Mystic pointed out it was less "modern" (trans.: apparently only controlled one parameter of choice). I don't see the point and what it gained over a simple fader or wheel other than a "golly gee whiz" factor. LEAP appears to be a different story...
> 
> Bob


D-Beam at the time was a really fun thing for live performance to add the crowd "wow" factor but it was annoying to use in reality.


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## bcarwell (Jun 24, 2020)

Not to mention the 1928 Theremin and its resurgence in Forbidden Planet (1956), score by Bebe and Louis Barron. Notice I didn't say "music by". They were not union and credits were forced to be changed to "...electronic tonalities by". I digress but the Wikipedia on them is fascinating. "The music and the sound effects stunned the audience. During the preview of the movie when the sounds of the spaceship landing on _Altair IV_ filled the theater, the audience broke out in spontaneous applause."- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bebe_and_Louis_Barron


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## robcs (Jun 24, 2020)

shawnsingh said:


> Just to be totally clear, did you install v1.2 or v1.4 for leap?
> 
> I'm reading this link - https://developer.leapmotion.com/setup/desktop that strongly hints that apps that requires 1.2 are legacy and not going to be actively supported. But then geco website still says it may not work with 1.4 (https://gallery.leapmotion.com/geco-midi/), and looks like it hasn't been actively maintained for a few years. I wonder if there is any fundamental reason that geco may not work with 1.4? Or is it just a matter of limited resources, and doesn't really need too much maintenance?
> 
> Thanks!



I just checked and in fact I’m running Leap 2 with Geco 1.3


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## sctaylorcan (Jan 15, 2021)

Good Afternoon  A little bump on an older thread as a first-time poster! I picked up a Leap Motion in November after getting the oh-so-playable Infinite Brass and Woodwinds - and while I understand Geco to be a great and popular package, I instead ended up building out my own (only for Windows) and decided to share for free at http://www.midipaw.com for anyone who would like it.

It is designed around the compositional flow of playing in a part with one hand and "leaping" with the other hand, and uses the latest (v4) leap drivers. Just another option for those who want to try their *hand* at it (groan!) 

My personal impression is that the hardware is alive and well and supported (and going after a focused gaming/VR kind of experience, primarily) so I feel good that hardware/drivers will evolve for a bit, and with custom software I can keep up as/if it changes. My $117 CDN investment seems safe!


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## muziksculp (Jan 15, 2021)

sctaylorcan said:


> Good Afternoon  A little bump on an older thread as a first-time poster! I picked up a Leap Motion in November after getting the oh-so-playable Infinite Brass and Woodwinds - and while I understand Geco to be a great and popular package, I instead ended up building out my own (only for Windows) and decided to share at http://www.midipaw.com for anyone who would like it.
> 
> It is designed around the compositional flow of playing in a part with one hand and "leaping" with the other hand, and uses the latest (v4) leap drivers. Just another option for those who want to try their *hand* at it (groan!)
> 
> My personal impression is that the hardware is alive and well and supported (and going after a focused gaming/VR kind of experience, primarily) so I feel good that hardware/drivers will evolve for a bit, and with custom software I can keep up as/if it changes. My $117 CDN investment seems safe!


Thanks for sharing this.

So, is midipaw better than GECO ? what are the benefits of using midipaw over GECO ?

Oh.. and it's a free download. Cool.

EDIT : Ok, I checked midipaw in more detail, and it offers a lot more control options, and features than GECO does. I will have to give it a try.


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## sctaylorcan (Jan 15, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Thanks for sharing this.
> 
> So, is midipaw better than GECO ? what are the benefits of using midipaw over GECO ?
> 
> ...


Hi -- thanks for checking it out!

Admission: I never actually installed GECO, so I can't be too helpful with a comparison (so I guess I'd say "different!"), but a few key bits that I like about how MidiPaw turned out which may or may not be unique to it are:

It fits my thinking which goes "oh, I need a way to control vibrato. What motion do I want for that? What CC is it on? Okay, I'll add a rule for it..."
In the detailed rule settings, I find "tuning" the rules to my motions *very* fast and intuitive with visual feedback. I didn't even put numbers on the sliders because I found I did better with feel than with digits
I like the little hand graphic in the settings that controls how much the palm vs each finger is used to figure out overall position
I can shrink it small and pin the window on top so it plays nicely while i'm in my DAW
If you have any observations or feedback, I'm all ears


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## muziksculp (Jan 15, 2021)

sctaylorcan said:


> Hi -- thanks for checking it out!
> 
> Admission: I never actually installed GECO, so I can't be too helpful with a comparison (so I guess I'd say "different!"), but a few key bits that I like about how MidiPaw turned out which may or may not be unique to it are:
> 
> ...


Thanks for the feedback. 

I have a Leap Motion, and GECO, but haven't used it much. 

One thing I found very useful to have in the midipaw application is the ability to scale your motions, so you don't have to move your hands large distances to get a large CC value range. This can make it more practical to use. I will download midipaw, and experiment with it when I have some time. I feel this might be very useful for me. 

I also wonder if there will be other devices like/better than the Leap Motion in the future.


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## pmcrockett (Jan 15, 2021)

I use GECO a lot, so I'm definitely interested in MidiPaw. My main concern with GECO is simply that it runs on the old Leap software so future compatibly is questionable. Similar functionality while being able to run on the current drivers sounds great.


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## muziksculp (Jan 15, 2021)

pmcrockett said:


> I use GECO a lot, so I'm definitely interested in MidiPaw. My main concern with GECO is simply that it runs on the old Leap software so future compatibly is questionable. Similar functionality while being able to run on the current drivers sounds great.


I was using GECO with Leap Motion ver 3.xxx software, I had to upate the Leap Motion app to the latest version 4.1.0 so that midipaw will detect Leap Motion. It did not detect Leap Motion when I first ran Midipaw using the older version of Leap Motion (3.xxx) .


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## sctaylorcan (Jan 15, 2021)

pmcrockett said:


> I use GECO a lot, so I'm definitely interested in MidiPaw. My main concern with GECO is simply that it runs on the old Leap software so future compatibly is questionable. Similar functionality while being able to run on the current drivers sounds great.


Awesome - they are def. the same in overall objective, and prob. quite similar in execution (tho Geco is cross-platform while MidiPaw is Win-only). If you do check it out I'd happily welcome any feedback given your significant leap motion experience... It currently suits me just fine, but it's 1.x release and others may have fresh/cool ideas!


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## sctaylorcan (Jan 15, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I was using GECO with Leap Motion ver 3.xxx software, I had to upate the Leap Motion app to the latest version 4.1.0 so that midipaw will detect Leap Motion. It did not detect Leap Motion when I first ran Midipaw using the older version of Leap Motion (3.xxx) .


Totally right - Leap Motion deprecated the prior C# API bindings in 4.x, so as a newbie to the game in November, I went with the latest. I know it's possible to swap drivers back and forth by just installing the one you want again, but it'd be swell if they made things a bit more backwards compatible next time.


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## Markrs (Jan 16, 2021)

sctaylorcan said:


> Good Afternoon  A little bump on an older thread as a first-time poster! I picked up a Leap Motion in November after getting the oh-so-playable Infinite Brass and Woodwinds - and while I understand Geco to be a great and popular package, I instead ended up building out my own (only for Windows) and decided to share for free at http://www.midipaw.com for anyone who would like it.
> 
> It is designed around the compositional flow of playing in a part with one hand and "leaping" with the other hand, and uses the latest (v4) leap drivers. Just another option for those who want to try their *hand* at it (groan!)
> 
> My personal impression is that the hardware is alive and well and supported (and going after a focused gaming/VR kind of experience, primarily) so I feel good that hardware/drivers will evolve for a bit, and with custom software I can keep up as/if it changes. My $117 CDN investment seems safe!


This is a really excellent app, with all the control and flexibility that it has. This has made me want to get a leap controller!


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## fakemaxwell (Jan 19, 2021)

Just picked up a Leap Motion controller. Started with GECO, and while it worked I had a few things that felt like they didn't operate super intuitive.

Download MidiPaw and it basically solved those issues, it's much more current feeling and easier to work with. The tracking overall is smoother (could be MidiPaw, could be the drivers, either way). Gonna highly recommend it over GECO.

My only request so far is to have numerical values displayed when you're clamping the CC range. Some instruments do specific things at different ranges so it's a bit of trial and error without the numbers. Otherwise super glad to have stumbled on this.


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## sctaylorcan (Jan 20, 2021)

fakemaxwell said:


> Just picked up a Leap Motion controller. Started with GECO, and while it worked I had a few things that felt like they didn't operate super intuitive.
> 
> Download MidiPaw and it basically solved those issues, it's much more current feeling and easier to work with. The tracking overall is smoother (could be MidiPaw, could be the drivers, either way). Gonna highly recommend it over GECO.
> 
> My only request so far is to have numerical values displayed when you're clamping the CC range. Some instruments do specific things at different ranges so it's a bit of trial and error without the numbers. Otherwise super glad to have stumbled on this.


Hi, F.M.  

Thanks for taking MidiPaw for a test drive - so glad to hear it works for you!

Interesting suggestion about the numbers/precision on the CC values - I've popped up version 1.0.7.0 on the downloads page that now shows little numbers when you're moving any of the range/sliders in the detailed rule config. I'm sure plenty of folks would prefer it that way as well.

Cheers,
- Steve


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## pmcrockett (Jan 20, 2021)

I've been using MidiPaw the past few days for standard mod wheel duties and have no complaints so far. I like that pinch and grab motions are available -- GECO doesn't have those. One suggestion: it would be nice if MidiPaw automatically loaded the most recent state when you open the program.

Overall, I don't feel like I'm losing anything by replacing GECO with MidiPaw. Good work on this!


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## Be_Sharp (Jan 20, 2021)

sctaylorcan said:


> Good Afternoon  A little bump on an older thread as a first-time poster! I picked up a Leap Motion in November after getting the oh-so-playable Infinite Brass and Woodwinds - and while I understand Geco to be a great and popular package, I instead ended up building out my own (only for Windows) and decided to share for free at http://www.midipaw.com for anyone who would like it.
> 
> It is designed around the compositional flow of playing in a part with one hand and "leaping" with the other hand, and uses the latest (v4) leap drivers. Just another option for those who want to try their *hand* at it (groan!)
> 
> My personal impression is that the hardware is alive and well and supported (and going after a focused gaming/VR kind of experience, primarily) so I feel good that hardware/drivers will evolve for a bit, and with custom software I can keep up as/if it changes. My $117 CDN investment seems safe!


Sounds really interesting. I'm a leap motion + Geco user but i use macs. Any plans to make this available for macs in the future?


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## sctaylorcan (Jan 20, 2021)

Be_Sharp said:


> Sounds really interesting. I'm a leap motion + Geco user but i use macs. Any plans to make this available for macs in the future?


Ah, so sorry -- I know that lots of musicians are Mac folks, but I don't have any Apple equipment or expertise... which is really just the first problem... The Apple drivers over at LeapMotion didn't move off of the 2.3 version. I've seen lots of discussion of it on their forums, and there seem to be plenty of folks who would like it, but it looks like their dev priority right now is Windows.

Seems like GECO is the A#1 choice for Mac users!

Thx!


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## krismiller1982 (Jan 23, 2021)

Does anyone have a Leap Motion controller & GECO working within MacOS 11 Big Sur?


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## igbro (Jan 29, 2021)

Hey [email protected]
Here is definitely where I first heard about your baby!

I Highly recommend MidiPaw too.

I had forgotten my Leap Motion device for quite a long time since I purchased a TEC Breath controller 2.
I use TEC live too, this is very convenient to have both hands free in such a situation.
For composing, since head movements aren't this intuitive, I got LM out of its box and gave a try to MidiPAw.

Well, Geco works but MidiPAw does more and in a much modern way.

I like the "add gesture approach", the modern GUI and the use of the last API/Drivers allowing a few more gestures.(Grab, Pinch, speed detection)
You can have several "modules" for the same gesture and thus program several zones in the span of the selected motion.
Geco was limited by 2. Around the center, one controller for positive and one for negative motion.
Here, "dead zones" can be set. Very useful for pitch bend and precise gesture tweaking.

The "problem" with Leap Motion is that it strains the arm.

That's why I'm still using the TEC control breath controller as Expression device for intuitiveness and arm care.

Resting the left elbow on armrest and fine tuning the gesture amplitude and zones in MidiPaw, does the trick for me.

Of course, you must find the right VI capable of responding to all those events.

Aaron Venture instruments look/sound very good, but haven't try them yet.

Sample/Audio Modelling stuff are just made to be vastly controlled!

AM swam Brass and Winds kill. Strings need sonically more effort IMO but Control capacity is amazing.
SM old Kontakt brass stuff is very good too.
Chris Hein's instruments, even if they are sampled based instruments, offer a great universal interface with a lot of assignable controls. I know some in this forum dislike the overall sound of then, but they really work form me.

Remember than MidiPaw can convert motion to keyswitches for all other libraries!

This guy uses TEC+Leap Motion



SM string solo and ensemble! Wow!
Same guy, no Leap Motion here but indeed, a very controllable library.(3 videos)



All Gomez channel is about AM/SM modelling "controllable" instruments.

Cheers.

Igor


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## sctaylorcan (Jan 29, 2021)

igbro said:


> ...
> 
> I Highly recommend MidiPaw too.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Igor!!

(And thanks again for your time helping me work out that bug where MidiPaw wouldn't run with certain regional settings -- tricky to find!)

The Leap *does* indeed tire the arm, but you're right that smaller zones can help. I'm curious about TEC also and might grab one soon. Your sounds combining TEC and MidiPaw were quite amazing! I might try them once Aaron releases his strings some time in the March/April timeframe and I can complete my collection. But the libraries you linked in the videos look fantastic as well.

Cheers!


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## sctaylorcan (Feb 27, 2021)

Hi friends  Just a quick update for any folks following --> MidiPaw 1.1 for use with LeapMotion on Windows is up and available (free) on the MidiPaw site now. It incorporates much of the feedback from folks here (thank-you!!) and other early users, and I think it really rounds it out to a solid base.

1.1's major additions are some rest/resume features, a conditional rule capability, midi automation, and a few other useful bits!

If you take it for a spin and find any issues or have any suggestions, I'm all ears - either here or via the contact form on midipaw.com

Happy Composing!
- Steve


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## Pier (Mar 1, 2021)

sctaylorcan said:


> Good Afternoon  A little bump on an older thread as a first-time poster! I picked up a Leap Motion in November after getting the oh-so-playable Infinite Brass and Woodwinds - and while I understand Geco to be a great and popular package, I instead ended up building out my own (only for Windows) and decided to share for free at http://www.midipaw.com for anyone who would like it.
> 
> It is designed around the compositional flow of playing in a part with one hand and "leaping" with the other hand, and uses the latest (v4) leap drivers. Just another option for those who want to try their *hand* at it (groan!)
> 
> My personal impression is that the hardware is alive and well and supported (and going after a focused gaming/VR kind of experience, primarily) so I feel good that hardware/drivers will evolve for a bit, and with custom software I can keep up as/if it changes. My $117 CDN investment seems safe!


Great job!

Is this open source? Do you have a public repo?


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## sctaylorcan (Mar 1, 2021)

Pier said:


> Great job!
> 
> Is this open source? Do you have a public repo?


Hi, Pier - 

Thanks, I haven't open-sourced - just me-sourced so far  Not that I wouldn't be open to it at some point, but I wanted to land it as a fully-baked base to start. I also don't have much open-source experience, so wanted to learn a little more before inviting folks in or throwing the doors wide open.

Cheers!
- Steve


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## Pier (Mar 1, 2021)

sctaylorcan said:


> Hi, Pier -
> 
> Thanks, I haven't open-sourced - just me-sourced so far  Not that I wouldn't be open to it at some point, but I wanted to land it as a fully-baked base to start. I also don't have much open-source experience, so wanted to learn a little more before inviting folks in or throwing the doors wide open.
> 
> ...


Honestly, as a fellow dev I was just curious to see what you used. 

Is this a JUCE app?


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## sctaylorcan (Mar 1, 2021)

Pier said:


> Honestly, as a fellow dev I was just curious to see what you used.
> 
> Is this a JUCE app?


Ah! Nope, I just built from scratch with WPF / C#, used a C# binding of the Leap C SDK (gleaned from their Unity tools) and some integration to the Win low level MIDI APIs. I'd still kind of like to modernize / 64-bit-ize that last MIDI part, but it is working well, so kind of lower on the priority list!


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## philippe goi (Mar 6, 2021)

Test MidiPawn + Leap Motion + TEControl Breath Controller ( Samplemodeling solo cello Strings )
View attachment Samplemodeling solo cello and MidiPaw TEST.mp4


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## sctaylorcan (Mar 6, 2021)

philippe goi said:


> Test MidiPawn + Leap Motion + TEControl Breath Controller ( Samplemodeling solo cello Strings )
> View attachment Samplemodeling solo cello and MidiPaw TEST.mp4


My goodness, Philippe -- that sounds spectacular!! Thanks so much for sharing!

Just fyi, there's a later version of MidiPaw now that has some even more detailed control options - but it looks like you already have a very detailed preset. Love it!!
- Steve


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## philippe goi (Mar 6, 2021)

Thank you for this fantastic software! I will test it again to control a maximum of musical emotions , very useful to give a new dimension to the virtual interpretation by the gesture !
-Philippe


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## Kuusniemi (Apr 1, 2021)

MidPAW is great! Just one thing for me would make it better... and it's a small thing... To be able set a default state for MidiPaw. Say I have a favorite preset that I want to use most of the time, I would love to be able to just set it so it's loaded when MidiPaw starts.


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## sctaylorcan (Apr 1, 2021)

Kuusniemi said:


> MidPAW is great! Just one thing for me would make it better... and it's a small thing... To be able set a default state for MidiPaw. Say I have a favorite preset that I want to use most of the time, I would love to be able to just set it so it's loaded when MidiPaw starts.


Hi -- thanks for the kind words about MidiPaw  It's *very slowly* starting to spread a little, yay!

I read your comment this morning when I was thinking about releasing 1.1.4 today, so I multitasked one of my less-interesting work Zoom meetings (shh!) and added a "Pin The Preset" button next to the preset name. When it's set, MidiPaw will remember the currently-loaded preset when you quit, and it will auto-load that one the next time you launch. Hope that's along the right lines!

I just released it - the app should tell you next time you run, or you can go to www.midipaw.com to grab it. This version adds some velocity (directional speed) motions, has some better velocity tracking stability and tuning, more granular control of when the rules rest, allows for the configuration of multiple working spaces for those that might move their leap around, and adds the option to auto-reverse selected rules when you switch to your other hand. Other minor UI tweaks too.

Of course please let me know if u hit any issues or have other feature ideas!

Cheers,
- Steve


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## muziksculp (Apr 1, 2021)

sctaylorcan said:


> Hi -- thanks for the kind words about MidiPaw  It's *very slowly* starting to spread a little, yay!
> 
> I read your comment this morning when I was thinking about releasing 1.1.4 today, so I multitasked one of my less-interesting work Zoom meetings (shh!) and added a "Pin The Preset" button next to the preset name. When it's set, MidiPaw will remember the currently-loaded preset when you quit, and it will auto-load that one the next time you launch. Hope that's along the right lines!
> 
> ...


Hi @sctaylorcan ,

Thank You Very Much for your continued improvements, and support of MidiPaw., and also replying to posts on VI-C. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Markrs (Apr 2, 2021)

The continued work on midipaw really makes me want a leap controller, though it seems during lockdown demand has been high in the UK as they have pretty much disappeared from places like ebay


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## Anders Wall (Apr 2, 2021)

Markrs said:


> The continued work on midipaw really makes me want a leap controller, though it seems during lockdown demand has been high in the UK as they have pretty much disappeared from places like ebay


Pm


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## igbro (Apr 2, 2021)

Steve strikes again! 
I thought nothing more could be added to MidiPaw! 🤯


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## Kuusniemi (Apr 2, 2021)

sctaylorcan said:


> Hi -- thanks for the kind words about MidiPaw  It's *very slowly* starting to spread a little, yay!
> 
> I read your comment this morning when I was thinking about releasing 1.1.4 today, so I multitasked one of my less-interesting work Zoom meetings (shh!) and added a "Pin The Preset" button next to the preset name. When it's set, MidiPaw will remember the currently-loaded preset when you quit, and it will auto-load that one the next time you launch. Hope that's along the right lines!
> 
> ...


Fantastic! That is just what I meant!  A really really great product, beats GECO hands down.

Cheers,


----------



## sctaylorcan (Apr 3, 2021)

sctaylorcan said:


> Hi -- thanks for the kind words about MidiPaw  It's *very slowly* starting to spread a little, yay!
> 
> I read your comment this morning when I was thinking about releasing 1.1.4 today, so I multitasked one of my less-interesting work Zoom meetings (shh!) and added a "Pin The Preset" button next to the preset name. When it's set, MidiPaw will remember the currently-loaded preset when you quit, and it will auto-load that one the next time you launch. Hope that's along the right lines!
> 
> ...


Oooops - 1.1.4 introduced a small regression with clamped movement ranges. Fixed in 1.1.5 which is out now and all shiny  Apologies; software is hard sometimes! Cheers!


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## Markrs (Apr 13, 2021)

Well the good news is I have a Leap Motion controller now. The bad news is that the link to download the Leap SDK seems to be broken.

Hi @sctaylorcan do you or anyone else have the file (LeapDeveloperKit_4.1.0+52211_win.zip) they could share?


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## sctaylorcan (Apr 13, 2021)

Markrs said:


> Well the good news is I have a Leap Motion controller now. The bad news is that the link to download the Leap SDK seems to be broken.
> 
> Hi @sctaylorcan do you or anyone else have the file (LeapDeveloperKit_4.1.0+52211_win.zip) they could share?


Ack, so close! lol! Did you follow the link from here http://www.midipaw.com/download/ for Leap, sign in, and it's broken on the Ultraleap site? (*edit* - it seems to be working for me)


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## Markrs (Apr 13, 2021)

sctaylorcan said:


> Ack, so close! lol! Did you follow the link from here http://www.midipaw.com/download/ for Leap, sign in, and it's broken on the Ultraleap site? (*edit* - it seems to be working for me)


Yep I am following your install video. I have tried multiple browsers and privacy window. However just tried it on my phone and it works. Very strange, will just download it on that and then transfer it to the pc


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## sctaylorcan (Apr 13, 2021)

Markrs said:


> Yep I am following your install video. I have tried multiple browsers and privacy window. However just tried it on my phone and it works. Very strange, will just download it on that and then transfer it to the pc


Gah - strange indeed. Perhaps a browser or firewall is treating it as suspect? Glad you found a way to drag 'er down! Now we just hope that you like MidiPaw


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## Markrs (Apr 13, 2021)

sctaylorcan said:


> Gah - strange indeed. Perhaps a browser or firewall is treating it as suspect? Glad you found a way to drag 'er down! Now we just hope that you like MidiPaw


All working now to start the fun! This is such a great piece of software.

The only problem is going to be is I promised myself I would hold off getting Infinite Series and SWAM for a bit after buying lots of libraries. Of course now with this (I also have musikraken, but I mainly use that within iOS), and the TEC breath and bite controller, I am super keen to have those libraries.


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## sctaylorcan (Apr 13, 2021)

Markrs said:


> All working now to start the fun! This is such a great piece of software.
> 
> The only problem is going to be is I promised myself I would hold off getting Infinite Series and SWAM for a bit after buying lots of libraries. Of course now with this (I also have musikraken, but I mainly use that within iOS), and the TEC breath and bite controller, I am super keen to have those libraries.


Oh, I'm in exactly the same library boat! I have AV's two libs and will buy IS when it is out, but REALLY want SW-Modelling Solo/Ens Strings too. Trying to resist, but I know I'll lose. I've already broken the news to my lovely and most understanding wife 

Let me know if you have any issues or have great ideas for new stuff - u can email me directly via the addy on the site too. Cheers!


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## sctaylorcan (Apr 13, 2021)

...aaaaaaand it took me about 2 hours after that post to buy the library. This is why one must never speak aloud of unowned libraries :D


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## dimtsak (Apr 16, 2021)

I got a leap motion and started using it with midipaw.
Great app!
It would be really helpful if you could also save (and load) a performance rule, including all its settings (range etc).
Because as it is now, you have to change the preset, copy the rule you want, return to the first preset, and copy it.


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## sctaylorcan (Apr 16, 2021)

dimtsak said:


> I got a leap motion and started using it with midipaw.
> Great app!
> It would be really helpful if you could also save (and load) a performance rule, including all its settings (range etc).
> Because as it is now, you have to change the preset, copy the rule you want, return to the first preset, and copy it.



Hi, Dimitris -- Awesome, thanks for trying out MidiPaw!

That's an interesting suggestion about save/load individual rules, and I see the pain of the current method. What I've done so far is to keep a text document of the rules I know I'll like to re-use. When there's a rule I like I copy/paste in to the text doc, and when I want it, I copy/paste it from the text doc in to my new preset.

But I was thinking -- both my method and the load/save method would require one to know in advance that one might like to use that rule again (and so save it or copy/paste it in advance). What about the possibility of a button for "import rule" that would pop up a list of all of your presets, and you could drill in to the list of rule names on a preset and pick one to copy -- might that suit your need?

Cheers!
- Steve


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## dimtsak (Apr 19, 2021)

Hi Steve.

Yes, this would be an even better feature i think.
And it covers all needs.
Someone could create a generic preset with the most used rules, to load them from there.


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## igbro (Apr 23, 2021)

sctaylorcan said:


> ...aaaaaaand it took me about 2 hours after that post to buy the library. This is why one must never speak aloud of unowned libraries :D


HI Steve, did you buy swam 3.0 (audio modeling) or solo/ensemble from sample modeling?
I'm testing a real bowing gesture setting thanks to MidiPaw and swam 3.0 hires cc capabilites.
This is amazing and adds a creazy realism/expressivity! 
Left hand bowing( right left) with pressure (up down) and position ponte/tasto (front back). 
No need for breath controller anymore. Everything is controlled by the bow like the real thing. 
Attacks, direction changes, expression, even tremolo. 
It really needs some practice not to run out of bow, always move and being able to change direction at the right time in synchronization with right hand note.
The gesture is totally natural (for a left handed string player, ahaha) and the swam string sound I don't totally like out the box, is gaining lot of credibility there. 
For vibrato and bends, which should be logically controlled by the right hand, I really would like to have a kind of Roli thing. $$$
Maybe I'll post a video when I am really used to this, there are still some synchronization brain farts.
Cheers.
Igor.


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## sctaylorcan (Apr 23, 2021)

igbro said:


> HI Steve, did you buy swam 3.0 (audio modeling) or solo/ensemble from sample modeling?
> I'm testing a real bowing gesture setting thanks to MidiPaw and swam 3.0 hires cc capabilites.
> This is amazing and adds a creazy realism/expressivity!
> Left hand bowing( right left) with pressure (up down) and position ponte/tasto (front back).
> ...


Hi Igor -- Wow! That's amazing to hear!! I would *love* to see a video of a MidiPaw-only virtuoso performance if you make one!!

I did not buy SWAM (yet!). I came soooo close because I also want to play with the bowing, but ultimately put my most recent purchase on the Software Modeling ones (which also require practice to get playing just right) - really enjoying so far - especially the solo patches.

I looked at the SWAM docs and see you can use positional L-R motions as you are doing, but I also recently added a set of directional "Velocity" motions to MidiPaw that was meant to be used with the other bowing method (Bipolar, I think they call it?), though I never got to actually try it since I don't own the library lol! Did you try by chance? Those ones can be further tuned for responsiveness/stability in the leap tracking settings in MidiPaw. Might be that these are the way to not run out of bow. Or setting a very wide working space? Dang. So curious to try!!

Cheers!
- Steve


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## igbro (Apr 23, 2021)

sctaylorcan said:


> Hi Igor -- Wow! That's amazing to hear!! I would *love* to see a video of a MidiPaw-only virtuoso performance if you make one!!
> 
> I did not buy SWAM (yet!). I came soooo close because I also want to play with the bowing, but ultimately put my most recent purchase on the Software Modeling ones (which also require practice to get playing just right) - really enjoying so far - especially the solo patches.
> 
> ...


Didn't try the bipolar setting yet, but direct bowing. 
I wanted to have the 3 axis replicate the 3d position of the bow onto the instrument and have the most natural feeling. 
So, bowing, pressure, position towards bridge or neck. 
Of course, I'm using 14 bits, which is called "hires cc" on swam side.
It directly goes into swam, which, in this mode, interprets speed by itself and changes action accordingly. 
Running out of bow happens in the real world and forces you to have a string player (reversed) mind set. 
The choices you make to avoid this, a single bow for several notes, (say changes every 3 notes for a triplet filling), Littles strokes on each notes for accent, ressembles the real player choices and lead to a very close to the real instrument phrasing.
I'll try aftertouch for vibrato depth on right hand but traditional keybeds don't usually give good AT sensitivity. 
Sample modeling solo/ens string seem amazing too. 
Better sound right out the box imho.
But maybe, with less control habilities due to the sample based tech.


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## philippe goi (Apr 23, 2021)

New test solo violin Samplemodeling Philippe
View attachment Samplemodeling solo violin and MidiPaw Impro.mp4


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## igbro (Apr 23, 2021)

philippe goi said:


> New test solo violin Samplemodeling Philippe
> View attachment Samplemodeling solo violin and MidiPaw Impro.mp4


Wow, Il marche bien aussi le sample modeling!


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## sctaylorcan (Apr 23, 2021)

philippe goi said:


> New test solo violin Samplemodeling Philippe
> View attachment Samplemodeling solo violin and MidiPaw Impro.mp4


Wow, Philippe! Thanks for posting --- that sounds absolutely wonderful. The combination of the breath controller along with leap/midipaw really bring it to life!!

I've had a couple of hours to play with Samplemodeling stuff now as well and am making improvements in my midipaw-only technique, but given your demo I've got a ways to go lol!


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## Markrs (Apr 23, 2021)

I had some fun with midipaw, which I posted in another thread. Below are the comments I made about how I used midipaw with Unify and BBCSO






A great tip for cross fading two patches on the same channel in kontact


I've recently been interested in realitone sunset strings... which allows you cross fade two string layers in one patch.. to give a pretty cool effect... and also really simple articulation swap/blending But then I spotted a great tip/technique by Marc Jovani. Basically you load two patches...




vi-control.net







Markrs said:


> Using either musikraken on iOS/android feeding into the computer or using a leap motion with midipaw I can do quite a few transitions such as cross-fading between sul pont / detached / sul tasto and also on each with flautando, vibrato on detache (I was testing with BBCSO and none of the other articulations have vibrato), whilst also controlling mod and expression separately, all just using one hand and a few motions.





Markrs said:


> On the leap motion I had a hand twist assigned to sul pont, moving into detached, then into sul tasto and then back again. If you turned you hand up the detache went into vibrato and if it went down it went to flautando. The last bit couldn't get to work consistently as it needed to cross-fade into flautando but that often clashed with the previous cross-fades.


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## sctaylorcan (Apr 23, 2021)

Markrs said:


> I had some fun with midipaw, which I posted in another thread. Below are the comments I made about how I used midipaw with Unify and BBCSO
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very neat! I also played a bit with more simple crossfades using MidiPaw and some expression/volume automation along with the "only when" conditional rule support and it *does* give some cool expressive results!


----------



## Markrs (Apr 23, 2021)

sctaylorcan said:


> Very neat! I also played a bit with more simple crossfades using MidiPaw and some expression/volume automation along with the "only when" conditional rule support and it *does* give some cool expressive results!


It was a fun experiment, helped me try out Unify as well. My aim to in a small way replicate some of the functionality you get in physical modeled Instruments in a sample library, by cross-fading the articulations. I think it offers so interesting composition possibilities, though no where as flexible as actual physical modeled instruments.


----------



## sctaylorcan (Apr 23, 2021)

sctaylorcan said:


> Wow, Philippe! Thanks for posting --- that sounds absolutely wonderful. The combination of the breath controller along with leap/midipaw really bring it to life!!


Hi @philippe goi -- Do you mind sharing which CC's / items you have on the breath controller? Is it just dynamics, or other dimensions too? Again, sounds lovely.


----------



## dimtsak (Apr 23, 2021)

I know that it might be awful for some of you to listen, but i post it anyway 
The first day that i got leap motion and installed midi paw to use it.
Loaded SWAM cello (after clarinet), assigned some cc and started playing and experimenting.
I ve never believed that i could control an instrument in such a way in real time with my keyboard.
I just exported it as it was, with all the mistakes, just to remember the experience.


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## philippe goi (Apr 23, 2021)

sctaylorcan said:


> Hi @philippe goi -- Do you mind sharing which CC's / items you have on the breath controller? Is it just dynamics, or other dimensions too? Again, sounds lovely.


the breath controller is just assigning on CC2 (orCC11) the rest goes through midiPaw , we already arrive at a very musical result by assigning by MidiPaw cc1 (height) and cc19 vib rate( latteral), it is necessary to program his gesture but it becomes very natural with practice!


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## sctaylorcan (Apr 23, 2021)

dimtsak said:


> I know that it might be awful for some of you to listen, but i post it anyway
> The first day that i got leap motion and installed midi paw to use it.
> Loaded SWAM cello (after clarinet), assigned some cc and started playing and experimenting.
> I ve never believed that i could control an instrument in such a way in real time with my keyboard.
> I just exported it as it was, with all the mistakes, just to remember the experience.


That sounds really lovely and expressive! Is that only MidiPaw and SWAM? Also sounds like I need to add SWAM to my libraries $$


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## dimtsak (Apr 23, 2021)

sctaylorcan said:


> That sounds really lovely and expressive! Is that only MidiPaw and SWAM? Also sounds like I need to add SWAM to my libraries $$


Yes, only SWAM, leap motion and midi paw.
Nothing else


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## kerryg (Apr 25, 2021)

My Leap Motion controller languished in my junk drawer for five years - victim of "does not play well with hubs" combined with "I don't have enough ports on my laptop". I hauled it out today to try on my new M1 MacBook Pro and discovered: 
- the good news: it works and the visualizer suggests it works *even better*. The "tool recognition" recognized a conductor's baton, which made me think "hmmm..."
- the bad news: all the MIDI apps, including Geco, are now broken

In hunting for the current state of the Leap, I wound up here. Kudos on MidiPaw and - although I totally understand why this isn't practical at the moment - I really do hope to see that on OSX some day!


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## sctaylorcan (Apr 25, 2021)

kerryg said:


> My Leap Motion controller languished in my junk drawer for five years - victim of "does not play well with hubs" combined with "I don't have enough ports on my laptop". I hauled it out today to try on my new M1 MacBook Pro and discovered:
> - the good news: it works and the visualizer suggests it works *even better*. The "tool recognition" recognized a conductor's baton, which made me think "hmmm..."
> - the bad news: all the MIDI apps, including Geco, are now broken
> 
> In hunting for the current state of the Leap, I wound up here. Kudos on MidiPaw and - although I totally understand why this isn't practical at the moment - I really do hope to see that on OSX some day!


Hi -- it's a very mixed bag with Leap and Mac. I don't know why, but they haven't updated the Mac leap drivers as far as the Windows one. But at the same time, the Windows ones have removed things like tool detection. *and* there are hints (only hints) that they will be catching up the Mac drivers at some point soon. When that happens, I'd bet there's a good chance Geco gets updated (I don't know the developer, but have seen a few of his replies that suggested this)... and it would be possible for me to collaborate with a Mac developer for an osx MidiPaw. I don't have any apple gear at all!

One thought, though, since you already have a Leap -- if you also have an old Windows laptop laying around, you can always press it in to MidiPaw service by using rtpMidi on the Windows laptop with Leap and MidiPaw, and have it send through to the Mac via Midi. In theory anyway!

Cheers!


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## sctaylorcan (May 2, 2021)

Happy Sunday/Monday -- just FYI, I popped up version 1.1.7.0 tonight that adds a couple of enhancements to MidiPaw @ www.midipaw.com ... (which is a free Windows app that interprets Leap Motion movement and sends MIDI CC and other messages for expression, for those new to the thread!)

Import Rule button - allows one to import a rule from any other saved preset
"1st" Only When option - allows one to stipulate that a rule is active ONLY if it is the first active rule configured to send its particular MIDI message. This is useful to prevent successive rules from sending the same CC or keyswitch when really you just want to evaluate top to bottom.
Please let me know if you encounter any troubles. I may or may not have had access to beer while finalizing the release 

Cheers!


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## MexicanBreed (May 30, 2021)

Found a Leap controller for $40. Actually had one before and sold it off because I couldn't get on with Geco. After reading the thread, I'm looking forward to giving it another try.


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## sctaylorcan (May 30, 2021)

MexicanBreed said:


> Found a Leap controller for $40. Actually had one before and sold it off because I couldn't get on with Geco. After reading the thread, I'm looking forward to giving it another try.


That's awesome to hear! Let me know if you have any trouble or have any suggestions for MidiPaw.

I haven't updated it in a little while (compared to the quick release cadence before) because it kind of feels _complete_ now, but I'm all ears for any ideas that could/should be incorporated!

Cheers!


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## MexicanBreed (May 30, 2021)

sctaylorcan said:


> That's awesome to hear! Let me know if you have any trouble or have any suggestions for MidiPaw.
> 
> I haven't updated it in a little while (compared to the quick release cadence before) because it kind of feels _complete_ now, but I'm all ears for any ideas that could/should be incorporated!
> 
> Cheers!


Thanks, man! Your app is what got me considering the controller again. I'm glad I found a bargain on it. And sure, if there's anything I could give feedback on, I will.


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## kerryg (Jun 7, 2021)

sctaylorcan said:


> That's awesome to hear! Let me know if you have any trouble or have any suggestions for MidiPaw.
> 
> I haven't updated it in a little while (compared to the quick release cadence before) because it kind of feels _complete_ now, but I'm all ears for any ideas that could/should be incorporated!
> 
> Cheers!


Well, I know you’re already aware of this pressing need since so many virtual composers are on Mac, but I’m just going to hold up a flag for “macOS version“ again anyway :D


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## sctaylorcan (Jun 7, 2021)

kerryg said:


> Well, I know you’re already aware of this pressing need since so many virtual composers are on Mac, but I’m just going to hold up a flag for “macOS version“ again anyway :D


That's a good flag, thanks  If the Leap folks update the drivers and if I come in to possession of some kind of mac device, I'd be happy to take a shot or connect with someone who is a mac dev. Indeed, loads of composers are Mac folks!


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## Olympum (Feb 21, 2022)

sctaylorcan said:


> One thought, though, since you already have a Leap -- if you also have an old Windows laptop laying around, you can always press it in to MidiPaw service by using rtpMidi on the Windows laptop with Leap and MidiPaw, and have it send through to the Mac via Midi. In theory anyway!


Just tried this combination on MacOS using Parallels to host a Windows image ... and it's jumpy. It feels like the controller stalls every few seconds for 100~300 ms. I also tried Mimugloves Glover natively on MacOS and saw the same behaviour, it randomly stalls. Is there something that needs to be configured to make it the software run smoothly? Thanks!


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## sctaylorcan (Feb 22, 2022)

Olympum said:


> Just tried this combination on MacOS using Parallels to host a Windows image ... and it's jumpy. It feels like the controller stalls every few seconds for 100~300 ms. I also tried Mimugloves Glover natively on MacOS and saw the same behaviour, it randomly stalls. Is there something that needs to be configured to make it the software run smoothly? Thanks!


Hi - sorry, I don't know about Parallels (100% windoze here) and was thinking more about an actual Windows device that you might have access to. I imagine that hosting Win on Mac and trying to get a HW device like that going *would* be jumpy, but don't have any equipment to try. Hopefully somebody else with Parallels expertise can contribute an idea!


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## Olympum (Feb 22, 2022)

I'll try to run Windows natively on another computer. Shall I assume that the controller + Midipaw is silky smooth & normally with no latency on Windows then?


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## sctaylorcan (Feb 22, 2022)

Olympum said:


> I'll try to run Windows natively on another computer. Shall I assume that the controller + Midipaw is silky smooth & normally with no latency on Windows then?


Ooooh - now I feel like I need a lawyer 🤣 BUT yes, joking aside, for me on my modest i7 that is maybe 6 years old or so, it is indeed silky smooth  No skips or stutters or anything like that. No users have reached out for support with lagging or stalling, so I imagine they're getting along okay as well.

I run it all in the box including LoopMIDI, so I presume that with Midi coming from an external source via network there would be some _latency _but it should be more consistent. Especially if the devices are both wired network connections.

Good luck! Would love to learn how you make out!


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## Olympum (Feb 22, 2022)

Wonderful, thank you! I'll shall try over the weekend then


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## bijan (Jul 13, 2022)

Hello everyone,
I have swam cello and leap motion and geco software and TC breath controller. Everything works except leap motion. Any trick how I can get it to work?
Thanks


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## dyvoid (Jul 13, 2022)

For Geco to work, you need an older version of the Leap Motion software installed, so that may be your problem if you don't have the correct version. Personally I'd go for Midipaw instead of Geco, exactly for that reason: Geco is outdated. I've had flawless results with Midipaw.


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## bijan (Jul 13, 2022)

dyvoid said:


> For Geco to work, you need an older version of the Leap Motion software installed, so that may be your problem if you don't have the correct version. Personally I'd go for Midipaw instead of Geco, exactly for that reason: Geco is outdated. I've had flawless results with Midipaw.


Thanks for the reply. I do have midipaw installed and it detects my leap motion. I just don't know what settings I should have in there since it's not detecting my hands movement. I'll make a video showing my settings.


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## bijan (Jul 14, 2022)

Screenshot attached.
Do I need to have Geco to work? It cannot find my leap motion device. I tried installing all different kind of leap motion software from new to old and even a developer version. None of them work.

This is what I am trying to achieve:


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## dyvoid (Jul 14, 2022)

Hard to say, there are so many variables at play here and I don't have SWAM (nor a Leap Motion to test at the moment). If you can't get Geco to work with any version of the Leap software, then you should definitely go for MidiPaw. If you can already see feedback from your hand gestures in there you're very close to a solution!

So next step, I'm not sure if SWAM standalone can do this, but you need something to recognize your loopMIDI as a valid MIDI input device. Personally I set it up in Studio One and could then use it to send MIDI to any VST (Kontakt, Sine, Spitfire, whatever). There should be a way to do that with any DAW. The last step would be to set up MidiPaw to send out the correct MIDI messages that SWAM expects (or use MIDI learn if that's an option in SWAM).


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## bijan (Jul 14, 2022)

dyvoid said:


> Hard to say, there are so many variables at play here and I don't have SWAM (nor a Leap Motion to test at the moment). If you can't get Geco to work with any version of the Leap software, then you should definitely go for MidiPaw. If you can already see feedback from your hand gestures in there you're very close to a solution!
> 
> So next step, I'm not sure if SWAM standalone can do this, but you need something to recognize your loopMIDI as a valid MIDI input device. Personally I set it up in Studio One and could then use it to send MIDI to any VST (Kontakt, Sine, Spitfire, whatever). There should be a way to do that with any DAW. The last step would be to set up MidiPaw to send out the correct MIDI messages that SWAM expects (or use MIDI learn if that's an option in SWAM).


I do have MidiPaw (see my screenshot I posted). My SWAM is standalone. 

Thanks for the reply. Hopefully someone who has the setup can help further.


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## sctaylorcan (Jul 19, 2022)

Hi -- hopefully I can help -- MidiPaw is my creation lol  Geco and MidiPaw are similar programs - you only need one of them. MidiPaw works with the newer Leap drivers, Geco works with a particular older version as others have said.

It seems as if you are getting motion successfully detected in MidiPaw (because the little blue bars are moving), but it isn't sending anything to your instrument. I suggest the following:
* Set the Midi OUT option in MidiPaw to be loopMidi.
* Set the Midi IN option in MidiPaw to be the interface that your physical keyboard is connected to
* Click the little right-arrow above the Midi IN input until it lights up and/or shows a filter (this is MidiTHRU, so that your keyboard playing will be passed through to loopMidi)
* In SWAM MIDI settings, set the MIDI input to be loopMidi.
* In the SWAM MIDI customization, set the CC numbers to be the same as the CC numbers that are configured in MidiPaw so it responds to the specific motion.

I believe I have a configuration file or two for SWAM that I'd be happy to share or paste here if the above gets you moving.

Feel free to direct message me here if you need additional pointers. Hope this helps!

- Steve


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## bijan (Jul 20, 2022)

sctaylorcan said:


> Hi -- hopefully I can help -- MidiPaw is my creation lol  Geco and MidiPaw are similar programs - you only need one of them. MidiPaw works with the newer Leap drivers, Geco works with a particular older version as others have said.
> 
> It seems as if you are getting motion successfully detected in MidiPaw (because the little blue bars are moving), but it isn't sending anything to your instrument. I suggest the following:
> * Set the Midi OUT option in MidiPaw to be loopMidi.
> ...


Thank you so much for replying and creating a great application.
I followed your instructions but I am still not getting any affect from keyboard by moving my hand on the leap motion.
Here is my setting: I am not sure where I am doing it wrong.
It would be great if you can set your config file or a screenshot of your settings.

Thanks again
Bijan


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## sctaylorcan (Jul 20, 2022)

bijan said:


> Thank you so much for replying and creating a great application.
> I followed your instructions but I am still not getting any affect from keyboard by moving my hand on the leap motion.
> Here is my setting: I am not sure where I am doing it wrong.
> It would be great if you can set your config file or a screenshot of your settings.
> ...


Ah, so close  I think you have your midi IN and OUT set to the same thing, causing a loop, causing loopMidi to "mute" itself so no Midi messages are flowing at all. There are a couple of ways to route MIDI for this.

The way I do it: My keyboard midi goes to MidiPaw's midi IN, MidiPaw is set to through mode and sends everything to loop Midi, and in SWAM I only have it listen to LoopMidi. That way all notes and all CC messages come through loopMidi to SWAM.

Another possibility: Don't have MidiPaw's midi IN set to anything (and don't have through mode), have MidiPaw send everything to loop MIDI, and in SWAM check off multiple MIDI inputs - the one from loopMIDI and the one from your keyboard (and also breath controller). That way all notes come from your keyboard midi port, and all CC comes through loopMidi.

I'll attach a zip with:
1) MidiPaw String Expression swamec file -- load this as a MIDI preset in SWAM.
2) SwamStringsMidipawPreset text file. Open the file, copy the entire contents to the clipboard, and in MidiPaw hit the Paste Preset button (top left corner, 5th button from left).

Then set the Midi IN on MidiPaw to be whatever port your keyboard is connected to (mine is connected to an Akai interface).

Then in SWAM select only loopMIDI midi input.

Once you get this working, you can try changing the midi routing so you aren't using the THRU mode on MidiPaw, and you'll set SWAM to listen to the loopMidi port, your breath controller port, and your keyboard port.

Some pics of my setup below.

Good luck!!


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## sctaylorcan (Jul 20, 2022)

sctaylorcan said:


> Ah, so close


Oh - and just for clarity, just in case - you have to press a note on your keyboard to play it - then waving your hand around Leap/MidiPaw influences how that note sounds by sending CC messages.


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## bijan (Jul 22, 2022)

sctaylorcan said:


> Ah, so close  I think you have your midi IN and OUT set to the same thing, causing a loop, causing loopMidi to "mute" itself so no Midi messages are flowing at all. There are a couple of ways to route MIDI for this.
> 
> The way I do it: My keyboard midi goes to MidiPaw's midi IN, MidiPaw is set to through mode and sends everything to loop Midi, and in SWAM I only have it listen to LoopMidi. That way all notes and all CC messages come through loopMidi to SWAM.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much again. That certainly helps me to get it work. I learned I have to disable breath controller first to get leap motion working. I have a lot of modifications to do before I can both working. Thanks again


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## Vonk (Jul 22, 2022)

This seems as good a place as any to say this. I just wanted to thank @sctaylorcan for midipaw and for the support for it he gives so freely. I aquired a leap motion off ebay a couple of years ago, and for a couple of years it languished in a draw because I could never get a good result from trying out GECO. Despite having a fondness for midi controllers of all kinds, I never got to grips with it (anti-pun intended).
Then I discovered Midipaw via VI-C, and it's been a transformation - especially the automation that allows the profile to change according to the instrument loaded. A couple of months in and I'm wafting my left hand around like a lunatic. 
I really admire those who have knowledge, technical or otherwise, that share it on VI-C through pure generosity of spirit and without commercial purpose or agenda. A proxy beer will shortly be on it's way - Cheers!


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## dyvoid (Jul 22, 2022)

Totally agree! @sctaylorcan should be applauded for not only writing such an excellent piece of software, but then giving it away for free and taking time to give great support on top. It's something else.


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## sctaylorcan (Jul 22, 2022)

Vonk said:


> This seems as good a place as any to say this. I just wanted to thank @sctaylorcan for midipaw and for the support for it he gives so freely.


@Vonk and @dyvoid thank you both for the kind words  And @Vonk thank you for the virtual beer -- received and sipping on some local Canadian craft beer right now! 






I'm super happy to know that people are getting some solid use out of MidiPaw!

Cheers!
- Steve


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## sctaylorcan (Jul 22, 2022)

bijan said:


> Thanks so much again. That certainly helps me to get it work. I learned I have to disable breath controller first to get leap motion working. I have a lot of modifications to do before I can both working. Thanks again


Yes, I imagine it is complicated -- I don't have both controllers, just the Leap, though I've thought about a Breath one also. I think the best way to get both going would be to have the SWAM instrument (or the DAW if hosting the instrument in the DAW) listen to both midi ports - loopMidi & the one that the breath controller creates, but I'm kind of guessing.

Glad you're off to the races at least. With a little time and a little digging in the manual page at www.midipaw.com it should hopefully turn out very well!

Cheers!


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## Karmand (Jul 22, 2022)

Just found this thread and reporting that I use Leap Motion on Mac with Monterey 12.4 and it's works great with Logic.
I use https://mimugloves.com/glover/ Glover was on sale one day so I gave it shot because Gekko does not work past Catalina? I think?

Anyways; that cool for Mac users and Monterey/Big Sur


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## sctaylorcan (Jul 22, 2022)

Karmand said:


> Just found this thread and reporting that I use Leap Motion on Mac with Monterey 12.4 and it's works great with Logic.
> I use https://mimugloves.com/glover/ Glover was on sale one day so I gave it shot because Gekko does not work past Catalina? I think?
> 
> Anyways; that cool for Mac users and Monterey/Big Sur


I haven't used it, but Glover actually looks spectacular to me (and cross platform - Mac and Win too). How are you liking it? Is the learning curve not too steep?


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## Karmand (Jul 23, 2022)

yea, easy to configure and in the case of VSL - having to control 11, 1 and 8 with hight, roll an tilt is pretty cool. I set up three presets - one for VSL, one of SpitFire and one for EW. One thing they need to work on is auto loading the last used preset. I saved it to documents and open up 'recents' each time. I noticed lately that Glover has to load up first before Logic in Monterey 12.4 - it worked either way you did it in BigSur but now I have to remember to load up my presets first, then Logic recognizes all the motions.


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## Erik (Jul 25, 2022)

Hi,
I have installed the Gemini software, tracking seems to be OK: I see my hand in black and white in the UltraLeap Control Panel. It also appears in the MidiPaw panel, so it *is* recognized in the system.

But.....there isn't any action noticable in MidiPaw when moving my hands above the LeapMotion.
Maybe it is something very basic, but I can't find out why nothing happens. Anyone here with more knowledge? A firmware issue maybe (it is 1.7.0.2 now)?

Thanks in advance.


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## Hans-Peter (Jul 25, 2022)

Karmand said:


> Just found this thread and reporting that I use Leap Motion on Mac with Monterey 12.4 and it's works great with Logic.
> I use https://mimugloves.com/glover/ Glover was on sale one day so I gave it shot because Gekko does not work past Catalina? I think?
> 
> Anyways; that cool for Mac users and Monterey/Big Sur


May I ask with what drivers? On my end, Glover does NOT work on Monterey with the "latest" Ultraleap drivers. I'd appreciate any insight as the support team of mimu does not bother to respond to my emails.


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## Olympum (Jul 25, 2022)

Hans-Peter said:


> May I ask with what drivers? On my end, Glover does NOT work on Monterey with the "latest" Ultraleap drivers. I'd appreciate any insight as the support team of mimu does not bother to respond to my emails.


I managed to get Glover with the latest drivers running a few months ago, but the experience is a disaster. At least the latest drivers seem to stall for 300ms every second, so it's not a smooth experience, definitely not suitable as a control surface. Maybe older drivers could help, but I just could not manage to get the V2 (non-Orion) ones installed on either Big Sur or Monterey.


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## Karmand (Jul 25, 2022)

LeapMotion
Software Version: 2.3.1+31549
Firmware Revision: 1.7.0
GLOVER:
1.1.1 Jan 17 -22 Build 2465|b7b1eec1|master
Monterey 12.4 on Mac Rack 48GB Ram Big Video Card(s)


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## sctaylorcan (Jul 25, 2022)

Erik said:


> Hi,
> I have installed the Gemini software, tracking seems to be OK: I see my hand in black and white in the UltraLeap Control Panel. It also appears in the MidiPaw panel, so it *is* recognized in the system.
> 
> But.....there isn't any action noticable in MidiPaw when moving my hands above the LeapMotion.
> ...


Hi Erik - if it is tracking okay, you should see animated "bones" overlaid on the images. It's fairly common (from reports here and elsewhere) that in V5 folks are getting indications that tracking is working, when really it isn't. If that's the case, [email protected] is probably the best bet.

Fyi, the tracking you should see looks something like this in the leap visualizer / control panel:





Hope that helps!


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## Erik (Jul 26, 2022)

Hi Steve, thank you for your clear answer! I'll contact them.


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## Karmand (Oct 13, 2022)

Another short 'tip-n-trick' for compatibility with (m1) Monterey Leap Motion... upgrading Monterey seems to have 'broken' my connection to recognize the leap motion controller, so I investigated and found this trick and it works; 
I still use Glover to control CC MIDI information to Logic, so I have not tested it with other Leap Motion stuff.
dunno why, but I can reboot as normal now and it still works in Monterey ... here ya go from their form:

*Leap Motion Monterey*

I had a similar issue as yourself, using touchess_lm and the device not registering, so any third party apps (albeit the few that remain !) would be moot regardless.
out of a bit of messing about I figured that the device was still registering in some crude way but not interacting. so this is what I did, for osx Monterey build 12.2.1 (public not beta).


load up your leap motion controller and the software
in leap software, go settings : troubleshooting : recalibrate device
keep that window open and restart your (m1) Mac running Monterey
when you restart it should pickup on the recalibrate window - but I could just close this window (not the leap program itself, and it worked.

so requires a restart for usage. Also the caveat I found is that with touches_lm it now wants to become the mouse, as opposed to a secondary pointer that was a green circle and gave me feedback, but this is just a minor thing for now as I'm messing around with it.

hope the new software comes out and maybe even some beta testers are needed.

hope this helps you out.



https://forums.leapmotion.com/t/leap-motion-controller-macos-monterey-supported-soon/16961/25


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