# Mac: Time machine ... could someone loop me in?



## osterdamus (Sep 11, 2022)

I've been a mac user for years. I've been working mostly in cloud applications or have had all my files backed up via dropbox, and I've never let my laptops get too old - which have meant that I've always had usable, older hardware to fall back on. 

For this reason I've never really gotten into using Time Machine. But now that I've got Logic, audio tools, settings, multiple downloaders, iLok what not, I feel slightly uncomfortable with not having a proper backup solution for the system drive. All my sample libraries are on an external drive, btw. 

So I have some basic questions I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on:


Is it correct that if I buy an external drive and use it for Time Machine, the entire drive is dedicated to this purpose?
Taking the above question and answer into account, what would be the proper drive to go after for my 512GB main drive (2019 MBP)? I'd intuitively choose a 1 TB, to have space beyond the 512GB (especially if Time Machine supports versioning), but probably wouldn't choose 2 TB because it seems excessive for the current need and storage gets cheaper all the time.
Have you tried to recover fully from time machine after system failure back into _original_ _hardware_ and how was the experience with the licensers and all the other (music related) software and settings? A steep hill to climb or smooth sailing?
Similar question: Have you tried to recover into new hardware (that is, a different, newer machine than the source machine). How was the experience?
Thanks!


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## jblongz (Sep 11, 2022)

1. Technically the drive does not have to be dedicated. You can store other data to it. Best practice would be to partition the drive, which sets the limitation for Time Machine space. 

2. 1 TB is best for your situation, there are really cheap ssd options in they capacity. 

3/4. I have restored to same and new hardware and it’s relatively smooth. Time Machine drives are not bootable, so you’ll need another method to restore the OS, then you will be able to restore account and data during initial setup process. 

In addition to Time Machine, I also use SuperDuper to keep a bootable clone of OS drive. Their paid version does delta updates…free version wipes and writes each time.


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## osterdamus (Sep 11, 2022)

Thanks for the info, very useful. Regarding this…


jblongz said:


> you’ll need another method to restore the OS, then you will be able to restore account and data during initial setup process.
> 
> In addition to Time Machine, I also use SuperDuper to keep a bootable clone of OS drive. Their paid version does delta updates…free version wipes and writes each time.


What’s the approach here in a complete reinstall scenario? Get Mac OS from Apple for a restore? Or use SuperDuper, then transfer what I assume is the image to a bootable usb drive / key?

I’ve only ever tried reinstalling from built-in (hidden) system partition on Mac, while I’ve done plenty of OS installs for windows.


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## jblongz (Sep 11, 2022)

For reinstall or new system, I have two options: 1) Time Machine. 2) Migration Assistant with both Macs connected via thunderbolt (or boot drive of old machine connected via USB, however slow). I prefer migration assistant with connected Macs because I'm used to it. I prefer to utilize time machine specifically for mistakenly deleted or changed files. Having more than one option is great.


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## osterdamus (Sep 11, 2022)

jblongz said:


> Having more than one option is great.


Definitely. I have all my project files in Dropbox, so I feel I’m pretty good there, but when it comes to all the other stuff, I need a solution.

You mentioned cheap SSDs. I guess this disk doesn’t necessarily have to be the fastest disk or fast connection, because once it has done its first full backup, it’s all about deltas? I saw in a different thread that Samsung has 1TB for $109 USD. Is that the price point you were thinking off as well?


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## jblongz (Sep 11, 2022)

I bought these for low priority use, but they have been performing well so far:





Sandisk is established. I took a chance on Leven, not familiar with them.


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## HCMarkus (Sep 11, 2022)

Running a Mac Studio, so no more internal HD storage.

I use Seagate 8TB external HDs for Time Machine. I let TM back up my System and Current Project Drives, as well as my Photos. I rotate drives periodically.

Additional backups:

Current Project Manual Backup to External SATA SSD
Long-Term Project Backup to External HD
Archive External HD (a copy is kept off-line as well)

BackBlaze Cloud for all data except System (BB won't back up System)

I am reminded by JBlognz to do a SuperDuper clone of my System. I used to do this all the time on my Mac Pro. Time to get this going again!


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## cuttime (Sep 11, 2022)

I have read that the Time Machine drive cannot be formatted in APFS. Is this correct?


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## HCMarkus (Sep 11, 2022)

cuttime said:


> I have read that the Time Machine drive cannot be formatted in APFS. Is this correct?


No longer true under current OS. Not sure when this changed.


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## osterdamus (Sep 11, 2022)

HCMarkus said:


> I let TM back up my System and Current Project Drives, as well as my Photos.


I somehow got the notion that Time Machine was an all or nothing kind of backup. Is it possible to add specific external drives to the backup, you say? Like, if I buy a mad size HD (not SSD), would I be able to back up both system drive and my SSD with samples in one go? 

Also, is it possible to exclude folders in TM? I find that backing up the dropbox would be a waste, but also I don't want any confusion at restore time about which is the most correct image of the dropbox folder. So I'd prefer to exclude the Dropbox folder and always sync down from the Dropbox service.


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## BassClef (Sep 11, 2022)

If you go to Time Machine preferences/Options, you can exclude items... drives and or directories.


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## kevinh (Sep 11, 2022)

Kind of related to your topic but wanted to share that I used to rely on cloud backups until I had to restore a laptop (256GB) and took a week to finally restore all files. Upload from my laptop was always super fast but download and restoring was a complete pain in the behind. I now use TM and what a difference it was to restore. I was up and running within a few hours. Cloud backups sound like a great idea but in my experience unless you are restoring relatively small files, don’t waste your time. Maybe others have had better experiences. TM is the way to go.


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## osterdamus (Sep 11, 2022)

kevinh said:


> TM is the way to go.


Definitely seems like it, at least for anything outside Dropbox and to get up and running again for system files. 

I've personally have had good experience getting Dropbox data down fast on new machines, but then again I also download selectively.


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## HCMarkus (Sep 11, 2022)

kevinh said:


> Kind of related to your topic but wanted to share that I used to rely on cloud backups until I had to restore a laptop (256GB) and took a week to finally restore all files.


Ever had your studio burn to the ground? I have, in a wildfire. Local backup is not very effective in that situation.

*Direct backup of project files to SSD + Cloud for all data + TM on HD for everything.* That is the way to go. Daily session backups are quick to SSD. TM is slow, but steady. I've got about 10TB up on BackBlaze. Unlimited data for one computer costs $6/Mo with 30 days retention, $9/Mo with one year retention.

PS: BackBlaze will send you your data on an HD if you need it:



> Download files for free from the web, or have your data shipped to you on an external drive ($189) with a full refund upon return.


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## osterdamus (Sep 11, 2022)

HCMarkus said:


> I am reminded by JBlognz to do a SuperDuper clone of my System.


Your strategy seems sound with regards to direct copies and TM for user data. 

The SuperDuper image target is a disk. Do you also lift this image to cloud storage? 

Between your redundant backup strategies, how do you keep on top of which one is the recent / most relevant copy of user data? Because following your backup strategy you have a copy on SSD, cloud and also included in your TM, right?


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## kevinh (Sep 11, 2022)

HCMarkus said:


> Ever had your studio burn to the ground? I have, in a wildfire. Local backup is not very effective in that situation.
> 
> *Direct backup of project files to SSD + Cloud for all data + TM on HD for everything.* That is the way to go. Daily session backups are quick to SSD. TM is slow, but steady. I've got about 10TB up on BackBlaze. Unlimited data for one computer costs $6/Mo with 30 days retention, $9/Mo with one year retention.
> 
> PS: BackBlaze will send you your data on an HD if you need it:


Maybe use TM for main backup and cloud backup for offsite storage in case of catastrophic circumstances is the balance.


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## HCMarkus (Sep 11, 2022)

> The SuperDuper image target is a disk. Do you also lift this image to cloud storage?
> 
> Between your redundant backup strategies, how do you keep on top of which one is the recent / most relevant copy of user data? Because following your backup strategy you have a copy on SSD, cloud and also included in your TM, right?



Retaining file/folder names allows one to Merge to backups in macOS, so I just keep updating (merging) to my daily SSD backups until a project is complete. Ultimately, I transfer to longer-term storage on HD. If a long-term storage project gets recalled into action, I just keep both the original and new copies.

BackBlaze automatically backs up all data, retaining copies for one year (I pay the extra $3/Mo), after which only whatever is still on the backed up drives is retained. BB does not backup system or Time Machine drives (it won't allow this).

As I noted a bit earlier, I have neglected to create the SuperDuper image on my Mac Studio. Once I create the clone, I will allow BackBlaze to back it up, if it will let me (I think it will, but not sure). Of course, a System drive can be reconstructed from scratch if absolutely necessary, so I am not as concerned about it as I am about my data.

Time Machine just keeps adding iterations of System drive and data until the drive is full, at which time I move to a new drive and put the old one in storage. With 8TB External HDs, a drive lasts quite awhile for me. I do not backup VI Sample Data or Daily Backup SSD or Long Term Storage to TM. This saves a lot of space. The sample data is up in the Cloud, and can also easily be re-downloaded via the web if necessary.

Storage is cheap. Ideas are (or at least, _can_ be ) valuable.


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## HCMarkus (Sep 11, 2022)

I should add, I use an incremental naming convention for my projects and do a lot of "Save As"


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 11, 2022)

osterdamus said:


> I've been a mac user for years. I've been working mostly in cloud applications or have had all my files backed up via dropbox, and I've never let my laptops get too old - which have meant that I've always had usable, older hardware to fall back on.
> 
> For this reason I've never really gotten into using Time Machine. But now that I've got Logic, audio tools, settings, multiple downloaders, iLok what not, I feel slightly uncomfortable with not having a proper backup solution for the system drive. All my sample libraries are on an external drive, btw.
> 
> ...


1. I've always used a back-up partition and always thought you needed to, but Jblongz says you don't need to and he or she is probably right.

2. I'd suggest a USB bus-powered portable drive, actually I'd suggest getting two for alternate backups in case one goes bad. Seriously!

Whether you get 1TB or 2TB might be a $20 difference, so I'd recommend 2TB so you have room to store other things you want backed up without using Time Machine.

3. Yes, it really does work.

4. Migration Assistant does that, in fact I just did on a new Mac. But because I was going from Intel to Apple Silicon I didn't transfer the applications.


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## osterdamus (Sep 11, 2022)

HCMarkus said:


> I have neglected to create the SuperDuper image on my Mac Studio. Once I create the clone, I will allow BackBlaze to back it up, if it will let me (I think it will, but not sure).


Could you give us an update on this, once you have it done?



HCMarkus said:


> Time Machine just keeps adding iterations of System drive and data until the drive is full


Again pardon my TM ignorance, but does this happen because you don't set a limit to amount of increments / snapshots? If so, is there way to keep TM size more manageable, say, by setting a maximum of snapshots? 



HCMarkus said:


> The sample data is up in the Cloud


Via BlackBlaze as well?


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## HCMarkus (Sep 11, 2022)

osterdamus said:


> 1. Could you give us an update on this, once you have it done?
> 
> 
> 2. Again pardon my TM ignorance, but does this happen because you don't set a limit to amount of increments / snapshots? If so, is there way to keep TM size more manageable, say, by setting a maximum of snapshots?
> ...


1. Will do.
2. If you want to manage TM drive size, and have copies of everything on hand, you can always initialize your TM drive and let it start over. Otherwise, it will start deleting older data once it fills up. I'd recommend just get a big HD (or two) and don't worry about it. 8TB drives (external USB as Nick recommends) cost me $140 last time I picked a couple up.
3. All sample data is up on BackBlaze, my only Cloud storage.


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## osterdamus (Sep 11, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> 2TB might be a $20 difference


Interesting. Got any recommendations on 2TB drive for backup use? You know I had to ask :D

Getting an overview here of the different strategies, it seems like this could be the way: 

Use TM for incremental local backup (to disk, no cloud) for easy file recovery and migration.
Use SuperDuper for creating a bootable image backup of system drive (lift to cloud service)
Lift sample drives directly to cloud backup service.
As I see it, this would support different recovery scenarios, from the more mild ones (file outside Dropbox scope got deleted what not) to the more catastrophic of nature such as total main drive failure or sample drive failure.

Optionally exclude dropbox from TM and SuperDuper to avoid recovery confusion, although some redundancy is good in any case, so maybe not. Also, redundant local disks could be an option, but also adds to the complexity imho. 

PS. I've experienced full system drive failure before (way back, in 2008, Windows machine, not fun!) and since then I've always had local hardware redundancy as mentioned in OP. But now sound software is again making the machine more sticky, so I definitely need these backup strategies in place.


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## HCMarkus (Sep 11, 2022)

https://www.costco.com/seagate-8tb-desktop-hard-drive-with-rescue-data-recovery-services.product.100983571.html



$160 8TB with built-in USB Hub. $180 on Amazon.


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## osterdamus (Sep 11, 2022)

Testing BlackBlaze now... seems great... my internet connection, not so much, at least not for the initial backup 💤 😄


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## HCMarkus (Sep 11, 2022)

osterdamus said:


> Testing BlackBlaze now... seems great... my internet connection, not so much, at least not for the initial backup 💤 😄


It takes awhile, for sure. You may be ale to speed it up in Preferences.


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## osterdamus (Sep 11, 2022)

HCMarkus said:


> It takes awhile, for sure. You may be ale to speed it up in Preferences.


Yup yup, seems like BackBlaze is getting the most of my connection right now. At this rate we're talking days... but definitely feels good to eventually have this hosted off site.


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## jblongz (Sep 12, 2022)

osterdamus said:


> 2. Use SuperDuper for creating a bootable image backup of system drive (lift to cloud service)


I don't recommend lifting the super duper boot image to cloud service. It's purpose is for instant access if your system drive fails. You'll want it on a nearby cheap SSD so you can boot a working system (even finish some work if content is on external drives) and clone back later when you have a replacement drive/system. 

Scary to think that a dead SSD on Apple computers means huge down time and sending the whole machine to them. I'm a Mac user, but just bought an ASUS ProArt that has two NVME SSD and ram slots. I really missed swappable internals.


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## Daren Audio (Sep 12, 2022)

jblongz said:


> You'll want it on a nearby cheap SSD so you can boot a working system (even finish some work if content is on external drives) and clone back later when you have a replacement drive/system.


This is highly recommended to prevent any down time.
I have a boot disk on a USB-stick and also a SSD boot drive ready to run the MacOS externally in case the internal drive fails.


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## Wunderhorn (Sep 12, 2022)

I am not a big fan of Time Machine. If anything happens to that file you can't get in and rescue what's left because of its proprietary format.
Carbon Copy Cloner (CCC) has been reliable for me for many years. SuperDuper is good too but CCC has more options.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 12, 2022)

osterdamus said:


> Testing BlackBlaze now... seems great... my internet connection, not so much, at least not for the initial backup 💤 😄


Be careful of cloud backup. Contrary to what I was told when I signed up, it doesn't back up programs, just other stuff, i.e. you can't just restore your computer if the system drive fails.

it's still a good idea, but don't rely on it alone.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 12, 2022)

Wunderhorn said:


> I am not a big fan of Time Machine. If anything happens to that file you can't get in and rescue what's left because of its proprietary format.
> Carbon Copy Cloner (CCC) has been reliable for me for many years. SuperDuper is good too but CCC has more options.


If you back up to an attached hard drive, it's not in a proprietary format - you can get at individual files.

It's only if you use Time Machine over a network that it creates sparse images, as they're called.

I'm a huge fan of Time Machine, actually. If only there was a way to use it for cloud backups.

Is there?


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## osterdamus (Sep 12, 2022)

jblongz said:


> I don't recommend lifting the super duper boot image to cloud service. It's purpose is for instant access if your system drive fails. You'll want it on a nearby cheap SSD so you can boot a working system (even finish some work if content is on external drives) and clone back later when you have a replacement drive/system.
> 
> Scary to think that a dead SSD on Apple computers means huge down time and sending the whole machine to them. I'm a Mac user, but just bought an ASUS ProArt that has two NVME SSD and ram slots. I really missed swappable internals.


Thank you, the penny dropped now. The restore strategy I was thinking here was to as quickly as possible to get the image back into the machine. Booting form external drive didn't cross my mind (never done it on mac), but yes, now I absolutely see the benefit 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻


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## osterdamus (Sep 12, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Be careful of cloud backup. Contrary to what I was told when I signed up, it doesn't back up programs, just other stuff, i.e. you can't just restore your computer if the system drive fails.
> 
> it's still a good idea, but don't rely on it alone.


Thank for the heads up. I won't, it's just the first step. I really needed to get my sample drive backed up and for some reason the get longer this thread gets, the more sweaty I get... 😅

Time machine + SuperDuper will give the application coverage and catastrophic failure coverage.


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## osterdamus (Sep 12, 2022)

Wunderhorn said:


> Carbon Copy Cloner (CCC) has been reliable for me for many years. SuperDuper is good too but CCC has more options.


Just read through the CCC features. It seems like a good alternative to TM, but not to SuperDuper because I don't see in the feature list that it can make the backup as a bootable image?


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## osterdamus (Sep 15, 2022)

So I had my sample drive backed up Tuesday to BackBlaze - and there was much rejoicing!

One quick question for those who know: If I back up an external drive and later eject it - how will the backblaze client react to this? 

I'd assume / expect it would just keep the backup in the cloud, allowing me to download at a later time if needed. Is that the case?


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## HCMarkus (Sep 15, 2022)

BB will maintain the copy in your backup for the period you are subscribed for. The basic BB, $6/Mo retains data from disconnected drives for 30 days. For an extra $3/Mo, the period is extended to 1 Year. For an additional amount, which is based on the amount of data backed up, the period is extended indefinitely.

I pay the extra $3/Mo; makes for less worry when taking vacation. So I only need to reconnect drives within the one year period. With the standard plan, you must make sure all drives are reconnected and the computer running and Internet-accessible within the 30 days.


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## osterdamus (Sep 15, 2022)

HCMarkus said:


> BB will maintain the copy in your backup for the period you are subscribed for. The basic BB, $6/Mo retains data from disconnected drives for 30 days. For an extra $3/Mo, the period is extended to 1 Year. For an additional amount, which is based on the amount of data backed up, the period is extended indefinitely.
> 
> I pay the extra $3/Mo; makes for less worry when taking vacation. So I only need to reconnect drives within the one year period. With the standard plan, you must make sure all drives are reconnected and the computer running and Internet-accessible within the 30 days.


Cool, thanks for clarifying! 🙏🏻


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## osterdamus (Sep 15, 2022)

HCMarkus said:


> BB will maintain the copy in your backup for the period you are subscribed for. The basic BB, $6/Mo retains data from disconnected drives for 30 days.


Is what you're talking about dubbed "Version history" (fits your description, just wondering)... is see this as the only add-on at purchase time.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 16, 2022)

osterdamus said:


> Interesting. Got any recommendations on 2TB drive for backup use? You know I had to ask :D



Seagate was nasty to me years ago and I won't buy anything from them. So I'd recommend another brand just because they suck. 

Whether one brand is better than another, though, who knows - I think it's dynamic - but my backup drives are Western Digital.

This is an example of the type I'm talking about.

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/wd-easystore-2tb-external-usb-3-0-portable-hard-drive-black/6406513.p?skuId=6406513

You can get drives like that up to 5TB. I wish there was an 8TB one, but as far as I know there isn't.

That kind of 5400 RPM laptop external drive makes no noise, and they're just convenient: bus-powered (you don't have to connect power) and small.


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## HCMarkus (Sep 16, 2022)

osterdamus said:


> Is what you're talking about dubbed "Version history" (fits your description, just wondering)... is see this as the only add-on at purchase time.








File Retention Version History : Access Previous Versions of Your Files


With Backblaze's Version History feature you can easily access previous versions of your files. Click to learn more.



www.backblaze.com





Looks like it!

Also, if you retain old versions of projects on your drive, the old versions will always be part of your backup. I do a lot of "Save As" with incremental names while developing projects, so the early versions are included in my backups.


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## osterdamus (Sep 27, 2022)

Good folks, trying to figure out what the BackBlaze memory footprint is. It seems there are two continuously running applications (menu and file list) using 25MB and 33MB respectively, and a third application that only runs when performing the backup, which reached a 300MB footprint. 

Dropbox, on the other hand, takes up 0.7-1GB all the time - I've been in contact with their Twitter "support", but they're firing dark with suggestions that has nothing to do with the issue. (I know they're not directly comparable in terms of features and purpose, but hey, a gigabyte is a gigabyte 

If any of you know how to bring down Dropbox footprint, please do let me know.


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