# Modern Composers and their Classical Influences?



## Andrew0568 (Sep 13, 2020)

I know very little about classical music but I'm interested in learning more. I recently went down a John Williams->Gustav Holst wormhole. Are there any other modern composer/classical composer associations that would good for studying?


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## RonOrchComp (Sep 13, 2020)

Shore > Wagner

At least in terms of LOTR


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## CT (Sep 13, 2020)

I'm not sure how many useful comparisons like this can be drawn. Threads of influence are sometimes really obvious but mostly they're incredibly subtle, and the obvious ones are, I think, more about specific moments and gestures than something deeper. The Shore/Wagner connection, as an example, is notable in terms of thematic depth and interweaving, but there are much stronger comparisons to be made regarding the music itself... like Holst, as it happens. That composer's relation to Williams is in the more incidental category by far.

If you were to just generally become more aware of the classical world, you'd probably start to hear these things yourself and would be more equipped to draw your own conclusions about it. That'd be my recommendation!


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## Karl Feuerstake (Sep 14, 2020)

RonOrchComp said:


> Shore > Wagner
> 
> At least in terms of LOTR


Many film composers are familiar with Wagner, or atleast others who were deeply familiar with Wagner  He cast a long shadow over programatic music, forever changing how it sounds and works - despite being a controversial person himself.

As a quick example, writing a minor 6th leap in the horns for a heroic character - Wagner. Using a minor 2nd neighbour tone in low strings and brass for a monster or villain - Wagner. It's possible someone influenced him in these conventions but he's as far back as I've managed to trace them.


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## Rory (Sep 14, 2020)

Composers of classical music learn the tools of their trade by studying their predecessors and popular/folk music. As a result, influences are inevitable. Compositions, including important ones, don’t come out of nowhere.

I strongly suspect that claims that a composer’s technique is revolutionary are based on ignorance of music history. To draw an analogy from a field in which I’m more knowledgeable, read Laurence Sterne’s 1759 novel _The Life and Opinions of Tristram Shandy, Gentleman_, and Denis Diderot’s 1785 _Jacques the Fatalist and His Master_, and it’s clear that modern novelists didn’t invent what are frequently seen as original, post-modern techniques.

I do think that studying an art’s history is useful. It contributes to enjoyment and understanding, and it certainly helps practitioners of an art master their tools. As part of that study, and assuming that one maintains perspective and isn’t inventing or overstating the influence, I don’t think that there’s anything wrong with studying the influence of Composer A or tradition/style A on Composer B.

Example? George Gershwin was clearly influenced by contemporary composers of popular music, some of whom he had worked with, when he wrote the concerto _Rhapsody in Blue_. Unsurprisingly, people have found it useful to study and understand that influence. Who was interested enough to attend the premier of _Rhapsody in Blue_? Among others, Igor Stravinsky, Sergei Rachmaninoff, Fritz Kreisler and Leopold Stokowski.


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## nolotrippen (Sep 14, 2020)

Andrew0568 said:


> I know very little about classical music but I'm interested in learning more. I recently went down a John Williams->Gustav Holst wormhole. Are there any other modern composer/classical composer associations that would good for studying?



Williams has said Elgar was his favorite (though I don't necessarily hear it). Barry liked Prokofiev and Shostakovich. Goldsmith liked Weber (though I don't know if this was his favorite).


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## SupremeFist (Sep 14, 2020)

Nyman-Purcell.


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## SupremeFist (Sep 14, 2020)

nolotrippen said:


> Williams has said Elgar was his favorite (though I don't necessarily hear it).


You like what you like but you compose what you can.


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## EthanAvry (Sep 14, 2020)

Mike T said:


> I'm not sure how many useful comparisons like this can be drawn. Threads of influence are sometimes really obvious but mostly they're incredibly subtle, and the obvious ones are, I think, more about specific moments and gestures than something deeper. The Shore/Wagner connection, as an example, is notable in terms of thematic depth and interweaving, but there are much stronger comparisons to be made regarding the music itself... like Holst, as it happens. That composer's relation to Williams is in the more incidental category by far.
> 
> If you were to just generally become more aware of the classical world, you'd probably start to hear these things yourself and would be more equipped to draw your own conclusions about it. That'd be my recommendation!



This idea of threads of influence being subtle is something I think about a lot. I feel like a lot of my own musical idols, who often span genres far outside of what I typically write, almost impact the framework of how I approach music - in the sense that it's less like I'm pulling particular moments or gestures, as you said, and more that it colors the lens through which I view music and composition. I'm not totally sure I'm explaining this all too well, so apologies for that haha!

Either way, great contribution and it's certainly something to think about!


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## CT (Sep 14, 2020)

EthanAvry said:


> I'm not totally sure I'm explaining this all too well, so apologies for that haha!



I think you're explaining it fine, and I feel the same way. If I were to say that Bach is an influence on me, what does that mean? Am I writing something that would be mistaken for his music? It's less obvious than that, and not just because I'm awful. Likewise, I'm sure that few if any of the many contemporary writers who would cite Shakespeare as an influence are using the particular English of his era.

That's the important distinction, for me. On one hand, the gradual sort of influence which is more like the passing on of tradition and philosophy and how those shape a composer's approach (and, occasionally, the results in a clearly audible way), and on the other, the more glaring instances of, say, Wagner using Berlioz's Romeo and Juliet as a "jumping off point" for Tristan.

The latter is, I guess, more sensational and conducive to YouTube videos, given the amount of "How To Sound Like X In 10 Steps" reductionism and "Top 6 Times John Williams Plagiarized" inanity.


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## b_elliott (Sep 25, 2020)

One resource you may find enriching is the Wellesz Theatre site on YouTube (contemporary classical composers). Between that and a Wikipedia search & study you may uncover composers unknown to you as yet. I sure have. 
Hope this is helpful to you!









Wellesz Theatre.


Seguici anche su TheWelleszCompany: http://www.youtube.com/user/TheWelleszCompany Wellesz Modern http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4ujwup4v1sIK12CWttascw/feat...




www.youtube.com


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## ed buller (Sep 25, 2020)

it's perhaps more useful and accurate to think that the language used by film composers since Steiner's King Kong relays heavily on Symphonic music from the late 1800's to the 1960's. Composers from Liszt to Holst, Debussy to Ligeti have been influencing ( and in some notable exceptions contributing ) to many film scores.That's really to be expected . The harmonic language that evolved from that time ( late romantic ) has a very useful tonal narrative that can be exploited by skilled composers. The best of course didn't merely write in that style but also used their ears to combine and synthesize new approaches. Close Encounters springs to mind as wonderful mix up of Ligeti and Ravel. Goldsmith too is a master of carefully placed 20th century techniques amongst more standard Wagnerian harmonies. When studying film music it behooves the student to constantly reference the original source material as apposed to the blatant lift. Star wars Dune Sea...should be heard after The Sacrifice by Stravinsky. Howard Hansons third movement of his 2nd Symphony before Bicycle Chase ET....that's not to negate JW enormous contribution......but to at least show one the path . Vaughn Williams Antartica and Star Trek TMP....etc...etc...etc...........

However part of the joy that comes from Film Music is the ability many ( good ) composers have of developing and re purposing the vocabulary of this period of musical history. It is without a shadow of a doubt "worth studying" The original composers , not just because they did it first , but because in many instances the available literature is comprehensive. There really are very few books on 'The Harmonic Language of John Williams" But I have shelves full of the same for his heroes . Just the scores only for The Planets, Dahpnes and Chloe, The Rite Of Spring, La Mer, The Sorcerers Apprentice, Appalachian Spring, Tristan and Isolde, The Pines of Rome, Scheherazade, Finlandia , Antarctica , should get your started.....................

best

ed


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## rudi (Sep 25, 2020)

nolotrippen said:


> Williams has said Elgar was his favorite (though I don't necessarily hear it). Barry liked Prokofiev and Shostakovich. Goldsmith liked Weber (though I don't know if this was his favorite).



Maybe this? (and also at 1:29)
I also hear some Walton influences..


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## rudi (Sep 25, 2020)

RonOrchComp said:


> Shore > Wagner
> 
> At least in terms of LOTR


And maybe some Sibelius too.... as well as this theme (which is also stated a bit earlier), there are plenty of moments that would fit in pretty seamlessly into LoTR:


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## Yogevs (Sep 27, 2020)

A lost of movie composers say they are very influenced by Gustav Mahler's Symphony No. 2


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