# Full buyout TV ad music fee



## vicontrolu (Sep 1, 2017)

Hi people,

I have the chance to take a job consisting in doing the main theme for a specific brand´s product. The files i should deliver are: 20s TV ad version + 10s TV ad version + 8s intro for some web stuff..all of them being modifications/adaptations of the same theme.

The only requirement i got from the company is that it is an absolute complete full buyout: they own copyrights, any kind of possible generated royalties, no time limit...they want everything.

Its my first porject of this kind so i am quite lost on what to ask for specifically. I know there are many variables to take into account so letme clear this up for you:

- I am an experienced music composer but not for this media: my name is not known in agencies, directors, etc.
- I wont work for less than what i think its fair. I am quite stable with my income. I do want to jump to do music for other media though so i really want this to happen.
- I live in a southern EU country (PIG) 
- The ad is gonna be aired worldwide, since the product will be sold in different countries (not sure how many, but many)


I´ve gotten some numbers from the internet (8000 pounds for UK and 9500 euros Ireland). I have the feeling this is not realistic in this situation given the geography and my current expertise in TV ads, although i am confident i can do a great job and there will be no complaints on quality. Not sure if i should charge also for the different music edits or how to.

Any one care to give 2cts about it?

Thx


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## Jeremy Spencer (Sep 1, 2017)

Have you asked what their budget is?


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## spikescott (Sep 1, 2017)

I would strongly caution against such a deal unless it was for _considerable_ renumeration. If it is going worldwide & in perpetuity then you must consider how much potential earnings from royalties & licensing for territories you would lose by granting a full buy-out. Once you have granted those rights away, you have no claim on it whatsoever. It is theirs, to collect royalties from or sell on as they choose.
In the UK the law states that a corporate body or company cannot be a composer, it has to be an individual or collection of individuals. Publishers can of course stake a claim as a company (no more than 50% of the rights) - but not for the writers share (the other 50%). I assume they have a publishing company set up, but also must set themselves up as individual writers if they are attempting to claw back some writers share royalties via PRS/BMI/ASCAP etc., of which they must register with also.
In my experience companies offering these kind of deals very rarely value the worth of your renumeration to anywhere near the correct amount. They are not only trying to save a whole heap of money, they are possibly trying to make money back (via royalties) at your expense too. IMO it is shady practice & I would avoid unless BIG bucks.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Sep 1, 2017)

I have done a few like this, and I sold them for around $1000. One of them literally took be about an hour to compose and deliver, so it was $1000 I didn't have in the first place, and it took me an hour of my time. Regardless, get a lawyer to review the contract.


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## spikescott (Sep 1, 2017)

Wolfie2112 said:


> I have done a few like this, and I sold them for around $1000. One of them literally took be about an hour to compose and deliver, so it was $1000 I didn't have in the first place, and it took me an hour of my time. Regardless, get a lawyer to review the contract.



That's another way of looking at it! Not bad for an hour's work


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## gsilbers (Sep 1, 2017)

the 9k figures are reasonable if its a known brand and the marketing establishes the product identity.


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## Richard Wilkinson (Sep 1, 2017)

vicontrolu said:


> it is an absolute complete full buyout: they own copyrights, any kind of possible generated royalties, no time limit...they want everything.



For a start, you are entitled by law to the writers share of royalties. If they're trying to claim that share, they are acting illegally and should be told/reported as such.

For a worldwide ad, in perpetuity you should be either quoting (possibly significantly) north of 10k, or at the very least signing a contract which licences the music to them for a year or two with a pre-agreed fee for renewing that schedule. Check PCAM for their standard contract.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Sep 1, 2017)

Rates have changed over the years, and are lower than they used to be.
There is no need to argue with them and try to change the clauses, since they are set on a buyout.
If it is a world-wide distribution, but not a high end luxury product, 10K may be ok.
In the past I would have charged 20K for this but those days are over.

If you consider that it probably will take you a couple of days, or an afternoon to do this, and despite the fact that they will own your theme, it is still a good thing for you.
I advise you to avoid playing hard ball with them if you want the gig, but rather justify your rate of 10k because it is a multi format, multi markets gig...

Good luck!


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## LamaRose (Sep 1, 2017)

It's a good payday, and if you write something credible, it's also great advertising for your services.


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## meaks (Sep 1, 2017)

Hi, if that helps...
Personally, actually (it doesn't happen a lot ), my allowed fee for a *Worldwide* *TV ad* (Examples: L'OREAL, 7UP, ARTISTRY, NIKE, ADIDAS and Others...) in 45/35/20/15s is 7000-10000 Euros, it's not buyout, it's renewable between 1-5 Years, depends on the contract, i share my royalties 50/50 with the production i work with, and they are for my part: 1-2 years of exploitation, 20000-50000 Euros, it depends on the number of countries, and more important, the categories of countries... I work in France.
Good Luck !


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## Greg (Sep 1, 2017)

10k USD sounds right by me. 20-30k if it were a 1-2 minute tune. Good luck with the gig.


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## vicontrolu (Sep 1, 2017)

Thank you guys, gotta love this forum.



meaks said:


> ... i share my royalties 50/50 with the production i work with, and they are for my part: 1-2 years of exploitation, 20000-50000 Euros, it depends on the number of countries, and more important, the categories of countries... I work in France.
> Good Luck !



Because i am very inexperienced with TV licenses and business, it comes to me as a surprise that there are royalties associated with broadcasting ads. To me a royaltie is just a % of something that is sold to a final user, like when selling CDs or gig tickets. In this case, is the ad sold to the TV channel? I just fail to understand how the money flux works in this case.

Also, i see that you have ASCAM and BMI in the states dealing exclusively with royalties. We dont have anything like that here (just some dealing with copyrights) which makes it harder to get deep into this matter.

I am on the fence of hiring the services of a lawyer that would come with me to a meeting and try to change their mind about the full buyout -i think they just had a bad experience in the past and now they are afraid of more problems coming from this- or just forget about it and ask for something less than 9K (its not a big brand and i am not a big composer).


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## Patrick de Caumette (Sep 1, 2017)

vicontrolu said:


> Thank you guys, gotta love this forum.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Bringing a lawyer at a meeting for this type of gig is a big mistake.
Having worked for the advertising industry for many years (until I got really tired of it and the industry started using library music a lot more), one thing I can tell you is that agencies do not like vendors (i.e. the composer) that make waves.
They want to work with friendly, easy going people, problem solvers.
I am the first one to stand up to defend my rights, but in this case, you are going to lose that battle and will never be called again for a gig by these people if you bring a lawyer with you for a meeting...
Look at it as a way to make good money quickly, not as an unfair transaction where your masterpiece is getting stolen from you for a couple of $.
Same goes for the video game industry, you are not getting any royalties and it's a buyout.
This used to piss me off to no end, but like it or not it's a reality, and bills need to get paid.
I'm not sure that you are looking at it realistically...


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## JohnG (Sep 1, 2017)

agree w/Patrick

Charge enough so that you can convince yourself you're getting two things:

1. a fair up-front fee, plus

2. the present value of the future payments you're foregoing. 

Then forget about it and write something else.


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## vicontrolu (Sep 2, 2017)

You are totally right. Thanks for the wise advice.


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## meaks (Sep 2, 2017)

Agree w/Patrick too.
I have luck working with a company that deals that way for me. In addition to the fact that, in a lot of countries in Europe, you get paid every time your work is broadcasted on TV.
That said, I remember dealing with companies in a buyout form and i did exactly what JohnG suggest you.
Good luck !


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Sep 2, 2017)

Yeah, Patrick's right, for a gig of this size, bringing a lawyer with you is overkill.


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## mouse_anon (Oct 1, 2018)

Where do you even find gigs like that?


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## Pudge (Oct 1, 2018)

Dont let them fuck you around and make false promises i.e "we got more work for you, but we cant afford this. Can we do it cheaper?" Lots of them like to spoon feed shit and once they get what they want, you'll hear nothing from them.


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