# My Perfect Pitch Training In 2021



## Jason Sioco (Aug 20, 2021)

https://jasonsiocoblogs.wordpress.com/2021/08/20/my-perfect-pitch-training-in-2021/


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## Romy Schmidt (Aug 20, 2021)

Jason Sioco said:


> https://jasonsiocoblogs.wordpress.com/2021/08/20/my-perfect-pitch-training-in-2021/


This might help a bit: https://www.music-chords.com/

Click "Practice Relative & Perfect Pitch"


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## SupremeFist (Aug 20, 2021)

The name "perfect pitch" is confusing because a lot of people assume that it has something to do with musical skill (it's "perfect", right?). I think "absolute pitch" is a better term. (I don't have it but I know that it causes some people more pain than pleasure.)


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## Macrawn (Aug 20, 2021)

Relative pitch between intervals is useful. 

I always thought perfect pitch as identifying the pitch in isolation. I think that is impossible and a useless skill. It only matters in conjunction with other notes. 

If someone for example can reproduce a note say via signing in perfect pitch in isolation, it's only because of the constant practice daily because it all depends on memory of that note. It's something that will just disappear totally without that kind of practice. 

Relative pitch doesn't disappear. People don't need to practice that constantly once they have mastered it. Just maybe keep their chops up with it. And that is extremely useful in playing. 

Absolute pitch is something that can't be mastered or attained and once you have it, it's gone. Plus it has no real world use lol. The reason is music doesn't exist in isolation. The information only exists relative to something else.


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## kgdrum (Aug 20, 2021)

Macrawn said:


> Relative pitch between intervals is useful.
> 
> I always thought perfect pitch as identifying the pitch in isolation. I think that is impossible and a useless skill. It only matters in conjunction with other notes.
> 
> ...


If I’m understanding what you’re trying to say I think your assumption is incorrect.
My brother has perfect pitch,he’s not a musician and he’s 68 years old and hasn’t played a musical instrument since he was 8 or 9 years old(he briefly played piano & trombone as a kid).
He can identify any note 100% of the time, if he sits down at a piano (after decades)he can sit down at the piano and noodle and instantly sound musical. 
My late Mom was the same,she couldn’t read music but could hear almost anything and play it back by ear even classical music if her chops were up to the task. 
She lived in Zurich in the 50’s and met a professor from a conservatory who wanted to check out her abilities.
He played a classical piano piece once,my dad who she eventually divorced never gave her credit for anything.
He said the the professor was in tears hearing her playback the piece.
She quit studying piano at a very young age maybe at 10 or 12 because she was math-phobic and hated trying to read music.
Perfect Pitch useless? I think not, I always found it ironic two members of my family had perfect pitch and they couldn’t care less and me the compulsive musician in the family didn’t have that gift.
In my moms later years she used to love having a beer and play Beatles songs,while singing dirty limericks (yes she was a trip!) or any song that happened to pop into her head.
Perfect Pitch is a gift I certainly wouldn’t mind having. 👍


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## Macrawn (Aug 20, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> If I’m understanding what you’re trying to say I think your assumption is incorrect.
> My brother has perfect pitch,he’s not a musician and he’s 68 years old and hasn’t played a musical instrument since he was 8 or 9 years old(he briefly played piano & trombone as a kid).
> He can identify any note 100% of the time, if he sits down at a piano (after decades)he can sit down at the piano and noodle and instantly sound musical.
> My late Mom was the same,she couldn’t read music but could hear almost anything and play it back by ear even classical music if her chops were up to the task.
> ...


Playing a tune back by ear isn't what I'm talking about. That has to do with the relationship between intervals and plenty of people can do that and it's very useful. The best musicians can hear something and play it back.

Perfect pitch is simply I pick up an untuned guitar and I tune the e string without hearing anyone play the e note. It's dead reckoning. Then I pick up a tuner and it is exactly on the correct tuning. Kinda useless skill really. Most people can pick up a guitar and say tune the whole guitar to say one string and that's great and useful, but that's relative pitch not absolute pitch.


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## kgdrum (Aug 20, 2021)

Macrawn said:


> Playing a tune back by ear isn't what I'm talking about. That has to do with the relationship between intervals and plenty of people can do that and it's very useful. The best musicians can hear something and play it back.
> 
> Perfect pitch is simply I pick up an untuned guitar and I tune the e string without hearing anyone play the e note. It's dead reckoning. Then I pick up a tuner and it is exactly on the correct tuning. Kinda useless skill really. Most people can pick up a guitar and say tune the whole guitar to say one string and that's great and useful, but that's relative pitch not absolute pitch.


I know what perfect pitch is,lol 
They both had perfect (absolute)pitch and I’m sure this helped them approach music even though they could ignore it for several years even decades………and never lose their abilities.


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## Macrawn (Aug 20, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> I know what perfect pitch is,lol
> They both had perfect (absolute)pitch and I’m sure this helped them approach music even though they could ignore it for several years even decades………and never lose their abilities.


But you equated playing back something to perfect pitch and those are unrelated. Plenty of people without perfect pitch can hear something and play it back. 

As far as perfect pitch goes, I still don't believe they really had it and if you can show me a documented case of it you could turn me into a believer. 

Even so, I think perfect pitch would be a fools journey and would have very little value for creative work. 

But relative pitch and playing things back by ear in a "relative" key even if it was off is extremely useful.


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## d.healey (Aug 20, 2021)

Are you the same guy that posted the How/why I'm going to be famous manifesto?

From your description it doesn't sound like you have perfect/absolute pitch and I've seen zero evidence to show that it can be developed by adults.


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## MartinH. (Aug 20, 2021)

d.healey said:


> Are you the same guy that posted the How/why I'm going to be famous manifesto?


Yes, he is.


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## kgdrum (Aug 20, 2021)

@Macrawn

Macrawn: “As far as perfect pitch goes, I still don't believe they really had it and if you can show me a documented case of it you could turn me into a believer.”


My uncle was a Juilliard trained concert touring educator/pianist ,he had relative pitch,people in my family know who had it(only Mom & Bro) and who didn’t.
Both my mom and bro were confirmed with perfect pitch numerous times.
My brother (68 years old)hasn’t touched a musical instrument since he was a child. If you play any note at any time he knows what the note is.
I’m glad you’re so knowledgeable about people you don’t know & have never encountered. Having the ability to understand complete strangers gifts and ascertain what’s true or false without any direct interaction is astounding!
Even if what you think is based on your misinformed extremely biased false assumptions!

*Bravo! 👍

p.s. *
If the music thing doesn’t work out for you have you thought about a position on the Psychic Network?


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## Jason Sioco (Aug 20, 2021)

d.healey said:


> Are you the same guy that posted the How/why I'm going to be famous manifesto?
> 
> From your description it doesn't sound like you have perfect/absolute pitch and I've seen zero evidence to show that it can be developed by adults.


* In a span of 31 days or a month, I practice Perfect Pitch 89% of the time, meaning Perfect Pitch is my life and a pivotal part of my day.

* I have 4 volumes of Playlists and counting, a grand total of 170 videos on my YouTube channel where I demonstrated real perfect pitch that I screen recorded in real time. I can't fake that.

* I am a proof of ample evidence that it's HIGHLY POSSIBLE for adults to develop Perfect Pitch. February 2019 was the time I began experiencing more consistent success with Perfect Pitch and I'm sill going strong in 2021.

* The number one thing on my mind right now is that I should turn my ear training principles and ideas for both Perfect Pitch and Relative Pitch into a mobile app. I have brilliant and revolutionary ideas for the perfect ear training app, but lack the know-how to create it. That's why I'm practicing coding right now and I started a few days ago. I also discovered Adobe Phonegap Build and J-Query Mobile for app creation. And I also learned that all I need is NotePad and creating a zip file to make the magic happen.

* I plan to sell each app for relative pitch and perfect pitch for $9.99 and the expansion packs of it for $5. So at least I get some money in return and I am not price gouging like those EarMaster and Rick Beato charlatans who make scam ear training apps.


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## d.healey (Aug 20, 2021)

Jason Sioco said:


> I have 4 volumes of Playlists and counting, a grand total of 170 videos on my YouTube channel where I demonstrated real perfect pitch that I screen recorded in real time. I can't fake that.


~Links please~

Found it - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4ZM-VvKO7oREcfjEU8Eqig/videos

In which videos do you demonstrate perfect pitch?



Jason Sioco said:


> J-Query Mobile for app creation


I recommend framework7 instead of jquery - https://framework7.io/


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## Jason Sioco (Aug 20, 2021)

d.healey said:


> ~Links please~
> 
> Found it - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4ZM-VvKO7oREcfjEU8Eqig/videos
> 
> ...


In which videos do you demonstrate perfect pitch?
Too many to point out which one to watch. You can try looking at my most recent take:



Ignore those videos that have column charts in the thumbnail. That's my weekly report. 

I will check out framework7. Thanks for the recommendation! If there's any recommendation for the audio aspect of app creation and coding. That would be a great.


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## ChickenAndARoll (Aug 20, 2021)

Jason Sioco said:


> In which videos do you demonstrate perfect pitch?
> Too many to point out which one to watch. You can try looking at my most recent take:
> 
> 
> ...



What you're developing is pitch memory, not perfect pitch. People with perfect pitch don't have to put any effort into thinking about the note, they just instantaneously know the pitch like how people are able to look at a shirt and name what color it is without thinking. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't keep working on this since people with really good pitch memory can make it appear as if they have perfect pitch


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## ChickenAndARoll (Aug 20, 2021)

In addition, it's been proven that as people with perfect pitch age, their perfect pitch starts to diminish in accuracy until they completely lose it. So in that regard, you might be better off NOT having perfect pitch since you'll only keep getting better with practicing your pitch memory. 


Here's a great video by Adam Neely talking about this:


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## Arbee (Aug 20, 2021)

Would this thread be more appropriate in the Members Updates & Self Promotion section?


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## MartinH. (Aug 20, 2021)

Arbee said:


> Would this thread be more appropriate in the Members Updates & Self Promotion section?


I vote drama zone instead.

The shit OP wrote about covid 19 vaccines is so wildly inaccurate, it invalidates all else he says. Y'all are wasting your time talking to him. I believe he's only interested in using this forum to boost his pagerank anyway, by linking back to his blog. Just check how many of his threads are just a link to his own blog, and how little participation there is outsite of these self promotion threads.




Nick Batzdorf said:


> He is?!
> 
> That's frightening.



@Nick Batzdorf: yes, this is his latest thread.


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## Henu (Aug 21, 2021)

ChickenAndARoll said:


> Here's a great video by Adam Neely


It's not great. I checked out the first examples and because I was a bit puzzled about his claims that people with perfect pitch would easily fail on those and many things weren't accurate at all if you ask me (having that absolute pitch myself). For what it comes to the video in general, I feel like this is the equivalent of "why you don't want to have super-athletic genes because you're gonna get old anyway".

Perfect/absolute pitch is a _bonus_. It's like having been born with superfast legs and decide to pursue a career in running in olympics. Does that mean that people who don't have it can't run better? Or does that mean that those born with that bonus are always going to better than the rest?
While we can't born again with superfast legs (I wish we could!), it doesn't mean we can't train our legs to be superfast. Even faster than the people who got the trait but never took full advantage of it. And hell, even if they _did_, we could still win.

Some people might perceive perfect pitch as the Holy Grail which would instantly grant them superpowers and "if I only had it, it would remove all obstacles from my way and I'd be already scoring the next blockbuster movie". The truth is that it's more like practicing to use a sword in an RPG and being handed one that has a +3 bonus against humanoids. Handy, yes, but not giving you the opportunity to win the game instantly. You don't need perfect pitch to success as much as you don't instantly succeed while having it. At the end of the day, it all falls to us and what we're going to do with the traits we've been given.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Aug 21, 2021)

Perfect/absolute pitch is really only handy when it comes to transcribing music and analyzing music on the fly, in my experience. Having a combination of perfect pitch and developed relative pitch is the ultimate combo, but relative pitch alone is extremely valuable and shouldn't be underestimated.


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## Craig Duke (Aug 21, 2021)

A short paper on AP by Daniel Levitin (who also wrote a nice book called 'This is Your Brain On Music').

*Daniel Joseph Levitin* is an American-Canadian cognitive psychologist, neuroscientist, writer, musician, and record producer.



http://www.lifesci.sussex.ac.uk/home/Chris_Darwin/PerMuSo/pdfs/Levitin_Rogers_Tics.pdf


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## NYC Composer (Aug 22, 2021)

ChickenAndARoll said:


> In addition, it's been proven that as people with perfect pitch age, their perfect pitch starts to diminish in accuracy until they completely lose it. So in that regard, you might be better off NOT having perfect pitch since you'll only keep getting better with practicing your pitch memory.
> 
> 
> Here's a great video by Adam Neely talking about this:



Exactly what has happened to me. At 67, the perfect pitch I had as a younger man is greatly diminished. I THINK I can still tell you what notes you’re playing with my eyes closed, but now it’s touch and go.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 22, 2021)

Chicken and Gaffable...Thanks for your concern, but it doesn't much matter. I either have Imperfect Pitch or a very high level of relative pitch at this point. It's not a problem writing music.


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## Justin L. Franks (Aug 23, 2021)

I have perfect pitch. While it does come in handy at times, I believe its drawbacks outweigh its advantages overall.

Here are a few examples: 

1. Musicians are overly fascinated with perfect pitch. Whenever I am talking with a group of musicians, someone almost invariably mentions that I have it. And then they play the "guessing game" and are amazed that I can recognize notes in isolation.

This gets old *really* fast. To me, it is like being asked "What color is this book?", and people getting surprised and congratulatory that I can tell them it is blue.

2. Playing transposing instruments. My main instrument is piano (lessons starting at age 4 and going all the way through high school and undergrad college). I also learned clarinet starting in 4th grade. I was a decent player, but my perfect pitch always held me back. I would see a G written on the music, play a G on the clarinet, but would hear an F. I had to actively ignore the "disconnect" between what I was reading/playing and what I was hearing, so I never was able to be anything better than somewhat competent on the clarinet. I tried an alto sax once, but that was basically impossible for me to play due to its much larger amount of transposition.

3. Singing in church. If the organist transposed a song to something other than what was in our hymnbooks, I simply could not sing along.

And many more similar issues.

A good sense of relative pitch really is all you need. If I could get rid of my perfect pitch, I would, without any hesitation.


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## jamwerks (Aug 23, 2021)

This pretty much explains it all...


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## NYC Composer (Aug 23, 2021)

Transposition is a bitch, same problem here.


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## Henu (Aug 23, 2021)

Justin L. Franks said:


> Playing transposing instruments.


THIS IS THE SEVENTH HELL OF ALL HELLS.


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## Vik (Aug 23, 2021)

Rick Beato, who has made the video below and many others, has come to the conclusion that over a certain age, one cannot train oneself to achieve perfect pitch recognition. Check the video, it's quite impressive.



He's probably right, but it's only after 50 that I got some glimpses of that kind of pitch recognition. For instance, I sometimes hear a note and think 'isn't that the opening note in a certain piece?', and I'm right in more cases than I expected. It also works the other way round: if I have worked a lot on a piece, and try to whistle or hum it, I'm also, in many cases, finding the right note without trying. I guess most of it has to do with memory.


Justin L. Franks said:


> 3. Singing in church. If the organist transposed a song to something other than what was in our hymnbooks, I simply could not sing along.


There's also a story where a composer heard one of their own pieces played in another key, and didn't recognise it.


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## FlyingAndi (Aug 23, 2021)

Jason Sioco said:


> * I have 4 volumes of Playlists and counting, a grand total of 170 videos on my YouTube channel where I demonstrated real perfect pitch that I screen recorded in real time. I can't fake that.


There would be so many ways to fake that...


Jason Sioco said:


> I am a proof of ample evidence that it's HIGHLY POSSIBLE for adults to develop Perfect Pitch.


In your blog you write "I currently have 5% pp mastery".
In a 12-tone-scale with equal temperament the chance of guessing the right number is 8.3%.
So what does 5% pp mastery mean?


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## Jason Sioco (Aug 27, 2021)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> Perfect/absolute pitch is really only handy when it comes to transcribing music and analyzing music on the fly, in my experience. Having a combination of perfect pitch and developed relative pitch is the ultimate combo, but relative pitch alone is extremely valuable and shouldn't be underestimated.


Ughh...I use relative pitch to transcribe. XD


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## Jason Sioco (Aug 27, 2021)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> Perfect/absolute pitch is really only handy when it comes to transcribing music and analyzing music on the fly, in my experience. Having a combination of perfect pitch and developed relative pitch is the ultimate combo, but relative pitch alone is extremely valuable and shouldn't be underestimated.


ughh...I use relative pitch to transcribe. When I listen to real music, the faculties that I am mostly using is relative pitch. I am yet to use Perfect Pitch in an actual play by ear situation.


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## GNP (Aug 27, 2021)

I've seen many perfect pitch folks who couldn't tell shit when it came to relative pitch. As a composer, I find that relative pitch is a much more useful tool than a circus performing show like perfect pitch. Perfect pitch to me is probably the most useless skill one can have.


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## Jason Sioco (Aug 27, 2021)

FlyingAndi said:


> There would be so many ways to fake that...
> 
> In your blog you write "I currently have 5% pp mastery".
> In a 12-tone-scale with equal temperament the chance of guessing the right number is 8.3%.
> So what does 5% pp mastery mean?


Like what?! How do I fake my perfect pitch? XD One of my principles in life is I DO NOT gain wealth by dishonesty. Yes, my ultimate goal is to be famous; but at least I'm working on it the honest way.

Practicing Perfect Pitch is my first activity of the day and I have other stuff to do after that. I'm basically doing one activity after another until it's late at night. There's no space of time for me to fake or rehearse my perfect pitch videos. XD


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## d.healey (Aug 27, 2021)

Jason Sioco said:


> Practicing Perfect Pitch


You can't practice perfect pitch, you either have it or you don't have it. There's no I have it 50%, that's the same as not having it. Focus on your relative pitch.


Jason Sioco said:


> Like what?! How do I fake my perfect pitch?


In those videos you could simply have a guitar tuner off screen that is telling you the pitch. Or you've memorized the sequence - I can't tell from your video if it's a random sequence but it looks to me like a series of flash cards that you've memorized.


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## Karl Feuerstake (Aug 27, 2021)

Jason Sioco said:


> Like what?! How do I fake my perfect pitch? XD One of my principles in life is I DO NOT gain wealth by dishonesty. Yes, my ultimate goal is to be famous; but at least I'm working on it the honest way.
> 
> Practicing Perfect Pitch is my first activity of the day and I have other stuff to do after that. I'm basically doing one activity after another until it's late at night. There's no space of time for me to fake or rehearse my perfect pitch videos. XD


Well you're becoming pretty famous around here, but perhaps not for the reasons that you'd like to be. Sometimes too much energy towards one thing can make that thing unattainable.

If you want to be remembered for having written great music, then perhaps it'd be wiser to just spend more and more time writing music (training your writing skills), rather than training your interpretive skills? Don't get me wrong, relative pitch is useful, but I'd question the necessity to have perfect pitch to be a great composer.


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## Justin L. Franks (Aug 27, 2021)

Jason Sioco said:


> Like what?! How do I fake my perfect pitch? XD One of my principles in life is I DO NOT gain wealth by dishonesty. Yes, my ultimate goal is to be famous; but at least I'm working on it the honest way.
> 
> Practicing Perfect Pitch is my first activity of the day and I have other stuff to do after that. I'm basically doing one activity after another until it's late at night. There's no space of time for me to fake or rehearse my perfect pitch videos. XD


There are a plethora of "learn perfect pitch as an adult" instructionals which are scams. Maybe you've figured out a way, but the odds simply are not in your favor, so people's caution is justified.

I'm not calling yours a scam. I just don't know if perfect pitch can be learned, but I definitely lean towards "no, it cannot". Pitch memory, sure, it can be. Maybe that is what you are actually doing.

The scammy perfect pitch training (again, not saying yours is), they all prey on musicians' fascination with perfect pitch and their fear that without it, they will be held back.

But it won't hold you back. It is useful in some narrow circumstances, but having it _will_ actually hold you back in some ways, a few of which I already mentioned earlier in the thread.


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## FlyingAndi (Aug 27, 2021)

Jason Sioco said:


> Like what?! How do I fake my perfect pitch?


I didn't say you were doing it, only that it would be easy to fake. @d.healey gave some good examples. 
Now what about the 5% mastery?


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## ryans (Aug 27, 2021)

Justin L. Franks said:


> I have perfect pitch. While it does come in handy at times, I believe its drawbacks outweigh its advantages overall.
> 
> Here are a few examples:
> 
> ...


Number 2 and 3 made no sense to me so I asked my partner (Who has absolute pitch and is a studio horn player) and she can't make sense of it either.

According to her having absolute pitch is an advantage in both those cases.


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## Alex Fraser (Aug 27, 2021)

ChickenAndARoll said:


> In addition, it's been proven that as people with perfect pitch age, their perfect pitch starts to diminish in accuracy until they completely lose it. So in that regard, you might be better off NOT having perfect pitch since you'll only keep getting better with practicing your pitch memory.
> 
> 
> Here's a great video by Adam Neely talking about this:



I have perfect pitch. Not self taught, just...well...I have it.

The above is absolutely correct. At 43 years old, I'm starting to lose it. I can be a whole tone out and it takes me more time to mentally "isolate" a note or the key a piece of music is being played in. It's slightly disappointing, but I was warned about this years ago.

IMHO, it's not really a skill that's worth ploughing too much time into if you're going the traditional composer/producer route. You'll reap more benefits by focusing elsewhere. I guess it's more useful (as Chris says) in a more traditional/classical role.

Side issue: Having PP is *not* helpful when playing a keyboard that's been transposed..


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## Justin L. Franks (Aug 27, 2021)

ryans said:


> Number 2 and 3 made no sense to me so I asked my partner (Who has absolute pitch and is a studio horn player) and she can't make sense of it either.
> 
> According to her having absolute pitch is an advantage in both those cases.


When I see a 'G' written on music for my clarinet, I am expecting to hear a 'G'. And I don't, because a 'G' played on clarinet is actually an 'F'. So there is a disconnect between what I am expecting to hear, and what I actually hear.

With an Eb instrument like alto sax, or an F instrument like a horn, that 'disconnect' is even greater.

I can't see how this could be considered an advantage.


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## Justin L. Franks (Aug 27, 2021)

Alex Fraser said:


> Side issue: Having PP is *not* helpful when playing a keyboard that's being transposed..


Yup! That is exactly like trying to play a transposing instrument. You don't hear what you expect to hear, and it throws you off.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Aug 27, 2021)

Justin L. Franks said:


> Yup! That is exactly like trying to play a transposing instrument. You don't hear what you expect to hear, and it throws you off.


Yep! This is where perfect pitch is an absolute curse and a nightmare. When I’m at an accompanying gig and the singer needs the song transposed down a half or whole step, if I don’t know the song well enough, you can bet I’ll be nervous. Hitting the transpose button does NOT work in this scenario 😂


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## ryans (Aug 27, 2021)

Justin L. Franks said:


> When I see a 'G' written on music for my clarinet, I am expecting to hear a 'G'. And I don't, because a 'G' played on clarinet is actually an 'F'. So there is a disconnect between what I am expecting to hear, and what I actually hear.
> 
> With an Eb instrument like alto sax, or an F instrument like a horn, that 'disconnect' is even greater.
> 
> I can't see how this could be considered an advantage.


Ok personally I do understand some of the logic there, but her response: 

"Playing the horn requires me to transpose in my head all the time. If absolute pitch is making this more of a challenge I wouldn't know. I've always had it and have no reference of what it would be like to not have it. No two people hear music the same way and we all adapt with the senses available to us. I would not want to give up one of my senses"

She certainly doesn't have any problems transposing so my guess is experience is allowing her to remember what is going to come out of the instrument rather than be distracted by some expectation?

I dunno, by the way not trying to be argumentative here  , I just find this interesting.


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## Alex Fraser (Aug 27, 2021)

ryans said:


> She certainly doesn't have any problems transposing so my guess is experience is allowing her to remember what is going to come out of the instrument rather than be distracted by some expectation?
> 
> I dunno, by the way not trying to be argumentative here  , I just find this interesting.


Indeed, really interesting. Perhaps it’s your wife’s horn playing training that’s giving her an edge?

I don’t remember having many issues learning the clarinet years ago (with pp) so maybe it’s possible to “overide the pitch expectation” with enough familiarity with an instrument, like you suggest.

Going back to the “playing a transposed keyboard” issue. It’s certainly doable, just…uncomfortable? Probably fair way to describe it.


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