# A-list composer copies Zimmer?



## MoonFlare (Mar 21, 2013)

Hi,

Almost eight bars in one of the most central cues in the first transformer score is identical to that of a cue in King Arthur's score:

King Arthur (2004):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yh0ikXWNFyE (9:54)

Transformers (2007):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87Ji4Taw3aE (1:31)


Now, how can this be "legal"? Wouldn't this be considered plagiarism? Or have Jablonsky licensed this part from Zimmer?

Zimmer: you are welcome to comment on this.


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## BoulderBrow (Mar 21, 2013)

Hmm I wouldn't describe them as identical personally although I've certainly heard similar pieces in the past (but not limited to just these two)


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 21, 2013)

Oh joy, another Zimmer plagiarism thread, these always end well. Moon, could you point to the exact time in each you think is plagiarism? Just gave them a spin and they sound totally different to me, but haven't the patience to A/B throughout both.


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## MoonFlare (Mar 21, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Thu Mar 21 said:


> Moon, could you point to the exact time in each you think is plagiarism? Just gave them a spin and they sound totally different to me, but haven't the patience to A/B throughout both.



Hi,

Time is already specified if you look to the right of the links.



Guy Rowland @ Thu Mar 21 said:


> Oh joy, another Zimmer plagiarism thread, these always end well.



And I interpret this as a positive thing, that _they end well_ refers to the joy of thinking about all the new insight that will be brought to the table.


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## dgburns (Mar 21, 2013)

They work together.That in itself tends to make people influence each other.I listened to the cues,they are similar,not identical in my humble opinion.We all tend to repeat ourselves,especially when encouraged by those who hire us.There's nothing bad here.

I once heard a comparison between the JW Superman theme and a cut from Korngold.Man,they were IDENTICAL in every way except for the perc which JW beefed up.I'm not sure how that came about,but seems more troublesome then what you point out here.

I'm comcerned by the thread because,while your intentions are likely good,I interpret an accusing tone here,and I'm not sure it will be recieved in a good natured way.


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 21, 2013)

MoonFlare @ Thu Mar 21 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Thu Mar 21 said:
> 
> 
> > Moon, could you point to the exact time in each you think is plagiarism? Just gave them a spin and they sound totally different to me, but haven't the patience to A/B throughout both.
> ...



I didn't think that could be right - they're different tune, chords and orchestration?! Similarish feel is about as close as it gets for me.


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## R.Cato (Mar 21, 2013)

Like Guy I also can't see any big similarities. Especially at the exact time you've posted.

But wait, when you listen to the whole melody the first interval seems to be identical. ---> Plagiarism!!!! :lol:


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## MoonFlare (Mar 21, 2013)

dgburns @ Thu Mar 21 said:


> They work together.That in itself tends to make people influence each other.I listened to the cues,they are similar,not identical in my humble opinion.We all tend to repeat ourselves,especially when encouraged by those who hire us.There's nothing bad here.
> 
> I once heard a comparison between the JW Superman theme and a cut from Korngold.Man,they were IDENTICAL in every way except for the perc which JW beefed up.I'm not sure how that came about,but seems more troublesome then what you point out here.



But can you actually make a score that simple without having trouble with it? I would say it's too close.




dgburns @ Thu Mar 21 said:


> I'm comcerned by the thread because,while your intentions are likely good,I interpret an accusing tone here,and I'm not sure it will be recieved in a good natured way.



OK, you are allowed to think that, but why do you interpret it that way? That is, what is "triggering" the wrong interpretation?


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## reddognoyz (Mar 21, 2013)

They do, or have worked together in the past. They don't sound that similar to me anyway. They are both amazing composers, just amazing. Steve J's work on Gangster Squad is great, I was listening to it yesterday btw.


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## RiffWraith (Mar 21, 2013)

1st off, you can copy exact times with a r-click on the timeline, and selecting "copy video URL at timeline".

Secondly...



MoonFlare @ Thu Mar 21 said:


> Now, how can this be "legal"?



Easy - they aren't the same. Only if they were the same would it not be legal.

"KA" is

D A G A / C F E D

over D/F/C/D

"T" is

G D C F / D F G / Bb A Bb

over D/F/Bb/C/D

Both are in the same key and time sig, but the notes are different, and are played in a different timing structure. They are similiar in a way, but they dont sound like one another, and this is far from being plaigarism.

Cheers.


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## mark812 (Mar 21, 2013)

http://zackhemsey.blogspot.com/2011/07/ ... onsky.html


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## dgburns (Mar 21, 2013)

MoonFlare @ Thu Mar 21 said:


> dgburns @ Thu Mar 21 said:
> 
> 
> > They work together.That in itself tends to make people influence each other.I listened to the cues,they are similar,not identical in my humble opinion.We all tend to repeat ourselves,especially when encouraged by those who hire us.There's nothing bad here.
> ...



just sounds like you're calling them out on copying,and then asking for input from the guy to defend himself.glad to know it's not malicious,so much around here is it seems.


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 21, 2013)

RiffWraith @ Thu Mar 21 said:


> 1st off, you can copy exact times with a r-click on the timeline, and selecting "copy video URL at timeline".



What a great tip, cheers.


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## MoonFlare (Mar 21, 2013)

RiffWraith @ Thu Mar 21 said:


> 1st off, you can copy exact times with a r-click on the timeline, and selecting "copy video URL at timeline".
> 
> Secondly...
> 
> ...



I still think it sounds very similar though. Anyway, thanks for this!


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## MoonFlare (Mar 21, 2013)

dgburns @ Thu Mar 21 said:


> MoonFlare @ Thu Mar 21 said:
> 
> 
> > dgburns @ Thu Mar 21 said:
> ...



No, that was not my intention. And Jablonsky is not on this forum anyway, so I'm not sure what I would hope for if that was my goal.


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## MikeH (Mar 21, 2013)

MoonFlare @ Thu Mar 21 said:


> And Jablonsky is not on this forum anyway, so I'm not sure what I would hope for if that was my goal.




You never know who is lurking around


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## pkm (Mar 21, 2013)

I don't think this would even be a blip on the radar of a musicologist. The chord structure, melody, and orchestration are all plenty different.


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## dormusic (Mar 21, 2013)

Well....
When spitfire, one of the most respected sample library producers out there, are working on "HANS ZIMMER PERCUSSION" what would you expect? The film music industry is obsessed with f***ing Zimmer all over. EPIC this EPIC that... my ears bleed every time his name is mentioned.


*Disclaimer: Hans Zimmer is a talanted producer and composer, too bad it doesn't show in his works.


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## passenger57 (Mar 21, 2013)

I just had to chime in, but I have to say this petty thread is lame. Hans is nice enough to take time out of his busy schedule to comment on various topics from time to time - not this Mickey mouse, amateur hour kind of thing. There should be a 'kids table' in this forum. :lol:


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## jleckie (Mar 21, 2013)

I completely agree with paasenger57


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## Dean (Mar 21, 2013)

just stop it,enough with the Zimmer already. D


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## Sasje (Mar 21, 2013)

I can't really detect the supposedly identical piece? I agree with BoulderBrow, some tunes are common heritage. 
I hear a lot of Irish tunes or folk tunes in many works, especially for flute. They all sound somewhat identical because it is a certain style/personality.

The same goes for Bransle's, music used in renaissance dances. I once heard a variation on a famous medieval bransle in one of Zimmer's work. 
Plagiarism? no not really. I actually applaud that because I love a composer who digs into the past and be inspired by beautiful dances and folk music. 

Here's the example:

Bransle by Michael Praetorius.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6DjzjgxBTM

.


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## MichaelL (Mar 21, 2013)

MoonFlare @ Thu Mar 21 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Now, how can this be "legal"? Wouldn't this be considered plagiarism?




From a lawyer's perspective:

As a defense to plagiarism or infringement a composer can argue that he /she was influenced by the work of long dead composer, whose works are in the public domain.

As far as comparing the music structure...chords, melody, orchestration etc, that really doesn't matter so much. In the US, the legal test boils down to what the "average" listener perceives, not what a musicologist can prove.


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## Ed (Mar 21, 2013)

Sheesh if thats a "copy" Im in big trouble. 

I have much better examples of "copying", I cant even see these as being all that similar. Not sure how you define "identical" lol.


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## 667 (Mar 21, 2013)

Hahaha they're not even close.

Another stellar MoonFlare thread :roll:


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## Alex Cuervo (Mar 21, 2013)

667 @ Thu Mar 21 said:


> Another stellar MoonFlare thread :roll:



Indeed.


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## Caedwallon (Mar 22, 2013)

C'mon, MoonFlare. You need to find a more healthy hobby on the internet. 

I recommend looking at lolcats and pictures of babies. If you're a man like me, you'll need to punch through walls to regain your masculinity after every lolcat session but it's awesome while it lasts.


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## MoonFlare (Mar 22, 2013)

MichaelL @ Fri Mar 22 said:


> MoonFlare @ Thu Mar 21 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi,
> ...



OK, so what is the "smallest" thing you can do to make e.g. two themes different from each other - without risking plagarism? Let say you have a very simple theme consisting of 8 notes. Would it be enough to change for instance two of these notes, and keep everything else?

I think the bars in question is based on the same (identical) idea. I know they're not completely the same.

Also, there is some noise in this thead that I simply ignore. What? I can't hear you...


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## JAM (Mar 22, 2013)

To me, they sound like two different pieces. (o)


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## MoonFlare (Mar 22, 2013)

JAM @ Fri Mar 22 said:


> To me, they sound like two different pieces. (o)



Yes, of course. I'm talking about the 6-7 bars that are quite similar.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 22, 2013)

What a useless thread. Who cares? And just another opportunity for someone (Dor in this case) to put down another VI-Control forum member's music. Sad.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 22, 2013)

MoonFlare @ 21/3/2013 said:


> Zimmer: you are welcome to comment on this.



Maybe it's a cultural thing, maybe it's generational (I don't know your age), but the way this is phrased, it's like you and Hans are having a debate in the schoolyard, and I find it insulting. I think it's that I was raised with the kind of manners that meant that one doesn't call someone just by their last name unless we're good friends, on the same sports team, or I'm a teacher trying to get a student's attention.

How impertinent.


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## Resoded (Mar 22, 2013)

Ned Bouhalassa @ 22nd March 2013 said:


> MoonFlare @ 21/3/2013 said:
> 
> 
> > Zimmer: you are welcome to comment on this.
> ...



Well in all fairness, this could just as well be interpreted the other way around, using his first name could give the impression that you pretend to know him in person. Maybe you're right that it's a cultural thing.

Though, come to think of it, I guess you're right if HZ is seen as a fellow forum member. Pretty much everyone call each other by the first name on this forum.

PS: I for one prefer to be called Your Majesty or Count Daterape.


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## Christof (Mar 22, 2013)

> Zimmer: you are welcome to comment on this.


 :lol: You invite Hans Zimmer to comment on this embarrassing
thread!How generous

He must be very grateful for that!
Back to work guys!

@Dor: you should head along to this thread
http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30371

and answer the main question with YES!!


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## MoonFlare (Mar 22, 2013)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Fri Mar 22 said:


> MoonFlare @ 21/3/2013 said:
> 
> 
> > Zimmer: you are welcome to comment on this.
> ...



I know Zimmer is on this forum, and he was merely welcomed to add his comment if any. I have not called anybody out! Zimmer has done nothing wrong according to this thread anyway, so why would I call him out!? What you write doesn't make sense!

You indicate that it may be a cultural thing. And obviously you are raised in some kind of way that makes you react to my thread. I have no problem with you explaining that you find my post insulting. And even if it sounds to me like you were raised during the Victorian age, I respect this. If you had stopped there, it would be OK. But you couldn't, could you? You had to include a sentence that states I'm being rude.

What you actually do are two things. First, you choose to think that being rude was my intention and that I wrote the first post this particular way intentionally. You could have asked, or waited for my response, but you didn't. You interpreted it as I intentionally wrote the thread in an insulting way. Why do you do that? Have you read the other posts I wrote in this thread? 

Second, if you actually think there are cultural differences (which there obviously are), why couldn't you give me the benefit of the doubt before stating for the world that I'm rude? 

What about this:



Ned Bouhalassa @ Fri Mar 22 said:


> What a useless thread. Who cares? And just another opportunity for someone (Dor in this case) to put down another VI-Control forum member's music. Sad.



This is way more explicit than what I wrote in my first post. You claim that my contribution is worth nothing. Who are you to interpret my post in this way and destroy my thread? Tell me why your statements are not insulting to me?

I ask whether the music is a copy (can you see, I even have a question mark in the title, wow!), and whether such "identical" parts are legal. You interpret it the wrong way.

You are sitting on your high horse stating that I'm rude. Read mine and your posts again and tell me who is rude!


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## MoonFlare (Mar 22, 2013)

Resoded @ Fri Mar 22 said:


> Ned Bouhalassa @ 22nd March 2013 said:
> 
> 
> > MoonFlare @ 21/3/2013 said:
> ...



Hi Resoded,

Yes, you are right. In Scandinavia I guess we would use the last name rather than the first name to address someone we don't know. Thanks for your comment!


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 22, 2013)

It's like deja vu all over again.


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## Ed (Mar 22, 2013)

MoonFlare @ Fri Mar 22 said:


> I think the bars in question is based on the same (identical) idea. I know they're not completely the same.



Well first of all you said it was identical and a copy, is there a langauge barrier issue? In english that means they are "completely the same". Thats what identical copy means. 

Secondly this is not the same idea, I wouldnt have even thought the two sounded similar and still cant hear the "same identical idea" even when you specifically pointed it out.

There ARE people who do copy, and this kind of score does get ripped off quite a lot. I mean Hans has complained(?) about trailers using the batman style string ostinatos, but its people like Steve J and Harry GWilliams that are still using the same style are equally to "blame" or more for everyone using it, and these are guys that came out of MV and RemoteC. People do copy stuff and people do get too close all the time, a copy of Mind Heist Inception trailer is in the Transfomers score you posted, that is really way too close. But this? By these standards of "identical" and "copy" then just about all music is identical to each other. This is a bad example, accept it and stop, or accept it and come up with a better example.


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## Rctec (Mar 22, 2013)

Thank You, Moonflare, for granting me permission to comment on your self-important thread.
F*King Arthur is just a pile of silly epic music for a very silly movie. Steve worked on it (just as I have worked on some of his movies), but that doesn't mean he used any of it.
Now, Moonflare, be a good chap and bugger off. Write some music that is not influenced by current trends, invent the next big thing and stop trying to get everyone's attention by discovering imaginary crimes.


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## Ryan (Mar 22, 2013)

Ohh :D


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## givemenoughrope (Mar 22, 2013)

Damn! 

That response was silly epic. 

hi 5, hans.


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## Tatu (Mar 22, 2013)

BOOOM!!

Sir, you are awesome.


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## nikolas (Mar 22, 2013)

And here we are ladies and gents. A perfect way to close this moronic thread!

Thank you Hans Zimmer for the lovely ending to an awful thread!

Darnit! I can't lock the thread... I'm not a mod in this forum! (thought I was)... Oh well... I'll wait for John to close it, but in the meantime my extended thanks to Hans Zimmer for this post!


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## jaeroe (Mar 22, 2013)

if you close it.... how are we supposed to bump so everyone else can enjoy and H's awesome response?....


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