# If you could record with real musicians, what would you choose?



## Joram (Feb 25, 2017)

I have a question for the more experienced composers and orchestrators on this forum. There are many interesting orchestral libraries and some of these are quite good. But still, working with real musicians is for many the ultimate choice. But if you could choose only one section of the orchestra to record with, what would be your choice? And as interesting: why? Do you have experience with recording different section and what were the results. Very much looking forward to your answers. Many thanks in advance!


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## Stiltzkin (Feb 25, 2017)

Strings, probably a string quartet over a full section; there's little you can't do with the string section in terms of mood. You can do percussive elements, soaring melodies over thumping cello and viola, a wide dynamic range, various timbrel choices to choose from, 1/2 1/4 tones, harmonics, any length of note you could ask for... The list really does go on - there's not much I can say AGAINST a string quartet really!


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## Smikes77 (Feb 25, 2017)

I`m sure I saw a vid on YouTube where Danny Elfman said he keeps the strings as VIs, but replaces the choir...I`ll try and dig it out.


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## Claude_Ruelle (Feb 25, 2017)

Brass! In my opinion, this is the hardest section to get right on VI.


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## Rodney Money (Feb 25, 2017)

A lot of great answers so far, but working with live performers all the time I am going to have to say choirs.


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## Parsifal666 (Feb 25, 2017)

I have the great fortune to have a small local orchestra and church choir (I live in a small town) perform my music for my tiny following several times a year. So...I guess I wouldn't mind working with a Strauss-ian scale orchestra, something bigger. I've recorded with fairly large orchestras outside of my town before, but over six years ago. So yes, I'd like to have the big symphony orchestra at my disposal.


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## Saxer (Feb 25, 2017)

Depends on the music.


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## Ashermusic (Feb 25, 2017)

Saxer said:


> Depends on the music.



Yep, totally depends on the music.


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## wst3 (Feb 25, 2017)

can't pick just one!


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## Joram (Feb 25, 2017)

Saxer said:


> Depends on the music.


I can imagine that, but I am eager to know your thoughts are on what it depends on.


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## Stiltzkin (Feb 25, 2017)

Joram said:


> I can imagine that, but I am eager to know your thoughts are on what it depends on.



The musical content requirement (ie mood, setting, time period or whatever - like for a jazz style musical you're more likely to go with brass band), but to be honest you could just arrange it for a different section - they're not really playing the game of "if you HAD to pick just one section to record for the rest of time, which one would it be" but rather replying as "what is the best section to record a piece of music". Which while it can be a real world setting, often I find that when restricted to a particular budget, you find yourself composing to a set orchestral pallet anyway - so you could even say it depends on the film/medium. But that's really getting away from the original question you posed


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## Saxer (Feb 25, 2017)

Joram said:


> I can imagine that, but I am eager to know your thoughts are on what it depends on.


Mainly how good or bad something it is to realize with samples. Hard to replace I would say: melodic parts, especially if the melodies consists of many different articulations (long tied to short notes, trills and ornaments, emotional dynamics, blurred textures, dead notes etc.). Easy(er) to replace: staccato ostinatos, simple pads, comping parts, pianos and percussion. Lower register easier than higher. Still hard to do: legato ostinatos. And certainly all instrument specific articulations which are not sampled yet and parts where you want the musicians personality.


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## whinecellar (Feb 25, 2017)

Another +1 to "depends on the music." I took the past year away from other work to pursue a lifelong dream of recording my own record, thanks to a successful Kickstarter campaign. I had hoped to record an entire orchestra but opted to just record a larger string section instead; that will make a bigger difference to my end result.

Despite the music being very adventurous, I'm confident I can get what I want with current brass, wind and percussion libraries. All you have to do is listen to the demos of the better programmers these days - just about anything is doable. But live strings on exposed stuff - nothing beats it. Obviously the LSO at Abbey Road or Air would be ideal, but that's a sandbox few of us get to play in


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## JohnG (Feb 25, 2017)

As good as virtual instruments are, it's amazing what you can fake. Usually the one hardest to bring off is brass, a section far more nimble and with a much wider dynamic range than samples usually deliver.

But if the piece "features" choir, definitely choir.


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## givemenoughrope (Feb 25, 2017)

Vangelis and both drummers from The Melvins
And 1,000 automobile horns honking into the entrance of the Holland Tunnel.


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## Greg (Feb 25, 2017)

Choir no doubt.


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## novaburst (Feb 25, 2017)

Greg said:


> Choir no doubt.



yep defo got to be choir, to have them say full whole words, instead of oooohs and arrrrrs all the time would be bliss


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## AllanH (Feb 26, 2017)

I'd say solo instruments.


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## desert (Feb 27, 2017)

Brass so I don't need to CC draw everything breath!


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## Joram (Feb 27, 2017)

AllanH said:


> I'd say solo instruments.


Of course, but that wasn't the question.


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## Joram (Feb 27, 2017)

Many thanks for the answers until now! Interesting that nobody choose the wood section.


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## Rodney Money (Feb 27, 2017)

Joram said:


> Many thanks for the answers until now! Interesting that nobody chose the wood section.


Well, my friend, there is a psychological reason why people choose what they picked. All our lives we have heard that strings are the backbone of the symphony orchestra, but all players truly know including the conductor that the trumpets really conduct the ensemble from the back. But because of this false doctrine concerning strings, developers have placed emphasis on not only getting them as close as possible to the real thing but also supplying articulations that only fairies and warlocks have heard of. So because of "string theory," musicians naturally choose strings since it is falsely engraved in their psyche that "they are so important" filling up the sonic "space." 

For the most part in the VI media world woodwinds play solos or runs, so "for the most part" people have that covered and forget that low woodwinds are absolutely beautiful at doubling low strings and brass, a choir of clarinets sounds just like a living breathing, warm pipe organ, and 2 altos, tenor, and barry sax sound like a warm fuzzy coat when accompanying double reeds like oboe. Who knew?

Percussion, plucked strings, and pianos are easier to sample realistically compared to other strings, woodwinds, and brass especially since you do not have to think about legato. You just need to understand how to appropriately program those sounds. Plus everyone in the world is a piano player, who needs to hire one?

People who voted brass truly understand that the sample world has not yet focused on the expressiveness that brass can really accomplish especially in solos and warm choirs. If you need brahmmms, whole-note epic horn lines, short low brass stabs doubling the epic percussion, background horn chords, and fanfare short trumpets, yeah we samples got you covered, but if you need an expressive trumpet to demonstrate an emotional line for a client then I'm grabbing Tina Guo Cello asking the client to imaging a trumpet until we get to the studio.

Of all the sampling world the choirs seem like they are more like toys than tools IMHO. Unless you need prerecorded phrases, shorts, ooo's, ahhhh's, or weird Latin Phrases that sound cool but meaningless translates to, "To God be the glory of fish with laryngitis" then choirs are still worlds behind in the sampling world. VI's have caused choirs to be afterthoughts and background instead of composers who used to know that the words were the most important stressing over the emphasis of each syllable and making sure words like "the" and "is" don't fall on a downbeat. The real answer is "it depends on the piece." If I am writing a piece that emphasizes mallet percussion like my "Meditation" then I am going to get a live vibraphone player, but if I am trying to truly pick the weakest of the sampling world that should truly have the most impact on my music then choirs is definitely my pick out of your list.


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## Flaneurette (Feb 28, 2017)

Winds. Especially emotional demanding pieces for oboe, clarinet, English horn. So delicate and fragile...

Strings are covered by samples adequately, except for maybe a soloed cello, violin or a viola da gamba. Percussion, piano and keyboard are the least of my worries.


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## dariusofwest (Feb 28, 2017)

Depends on the piece really. However, strings are my first choice, followed by brass.


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## bbunker (Feb 28, 2017)

I don't know if I exactly understand the question - is this a functional 'if you're doing a low-budget film and could only afford one section and imagine that they're all the same cost' kind of thing, or a less practical 'what would you write for if you knew you could have it recorded but it could only be one section' thing?

I guess it kind of goes almost without saying that it depends on the piece. Because, you know...it'd be a bit counterproductive to bring in the strings when the piece is for concert band. Or is this only for a traditional, legit orchestral piece? Because choir's included on there...not many cantatas being written today. Or is the idea being what you'd replace if you had an epic bludgeon you were working on? I guess I'm probably missing the point entirely.


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## bbunker (Feb 28, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> Well, my friend, there is a psychological reason why people choose what they picked. All our lives we have heard that strings are the backbone of the symphony orchestra, but all players truly know including the conductor that the trumpets really conduct the ensemble from the back. But because of this false doctrine concerning strings, developers have placed emphasis on not only getting them as close as possible to the real thing but also supplying articulations that only fairies and warlocks have heard of.



LOL! Spoken well and truly like a brass player. Insert "How many trumpet players does it take to screw in a light bulb" joke here.

Your reasoning is also a little unsound here - the 'backbone' of the orchestra and those who 'conduct from the back' aren't necessarily the same thing. After all - who is it that those brass Napoleons are trying to boss around? The strings, the backbone of the orchestra! Boom. Mic Drop.


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## Rodney Money (Mar 1, 2017)

bbunker said:


> LOL! Spoken well and truly like a brass player. Insert "How many trumpet players does it take to screw in a light bulb" joke here.
> 
> Your reasoning is also a little unsound here - the 'backbone' of the orchestra and those who 'conduct from the back' aren't necessarily the same thing. After all - who is it that those brass Napoleons are trying to boss around? The strings, the backbone of the orchestra! Boom. Mic Drop.


Oh my friend, let me introduce you to our trumpet god Bud Herseth, God rest his soul, before his death principal trumpet player of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra from 1948-2001. Listen to what he says at the beginning of the video concerning "never been promoted."


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## Joram (Mar 1, 2017)

bbunker said:


> I guess I'm probably missing the point entirely.


You work your brain too hard, bbunker  The question came to my mind when I was thinking about the many libraries that are available. There should be a reason why there are so many and even a few really good ones. I guess most people who filled in the poll are not completely satified with strings, brass and choir libraries. I do not know why they chose these groups more often. That could depend on the style of music they write, their knowledge of instrumentation, the sensitivity of the human ear in general but I am sure there are more factors.


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## mwarsell (Mar 11, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> Oh my friend, let me introduce you to our trumpet god Bud Herseth, God rest his soul, before his death principal trumpet player of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra from 1948-2001. Listen to what he says at the beginning of the video concerning "never been promoted."




The interviewers are orgasmic.


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## JPQ (May 2, 2017)

I cannot voteanymore but i say strings. becouse i can t hink tune purely with strings what i then add synths. and i mean synths not even orchestral samples.


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## ceemusic (May 2, 2017)

As a horn player years ago I performed with Wind quintets so yeah, I'd vote for that Would love to do that again.


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## Parsifal666 (May 3, 2017)

desert said:


> Brass so I don't need to CC draw everything breath!



lol! Been there.

Before I started working with orchestras, I would probably have picked strings. But it would have to be a ridiculously huge brass section for _*DA POWAH!*_

There's nothing like having a big brass section play your heroic/dramatic theme at full force. Plus, personally interacting with those sections in order to more accurately interpret a piece of your own making is positively _thrilling_!  .

As much as I adore my libraries, I find myself often longing for that brass _presence_ that live ensembles provide. That kind of brass can be so there that it can seem to take an at times exhilaratingly monstrous life of its own; almost like one of those ancient, Elder gods of Lovecraftian lore. The kind that would strike you crazy if you ever looked close 'pon it. Continent sized (or larger).

Oh, join together the 200 horns and begin the arcane litany! "Nyarlathotep! (insert cluster ), "Cthulhu!" (cue the Wagner Tuba Apocalypse).


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## Joram (May 3, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> I find myself often longing for that brass _presence_ that live ensembles provide. That kind of brass can be so there that it can seem to take an at times exhilaratingly monstrous life of its own


I know exactly what you mean.


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## bryla (May 3, 2017)

I would choose musicians that are openminded and inspiring to work with


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## MA-Simon (May 3, 2017)

Love the sound of small mixed quartet/sextet stuff for games:



Edit: Huh, I did not know vi-control could embed this stuff, sexy.


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## ontracktuts (May 8, 2017)

I don't see the choice to choose a Big band Brass section. That would be awesome! Its quite tricky programming in that type of brass and getting is to sound authentic. That would be great to record with a proper huge brass big band setup. That punchy brass!


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