# Ableton Live 11 announced



## Locks (Nov 10, 2020)

I don't see many other Ableton Live users on this forum so I may be part of a minority in this regard. But if there are any of you out there, Ableton has just announced Live 11. There are some really great new features and as well as features that users have been requesting for quite some time that are common in other DAWs (such as comping and MPE support).

There are also a few new stock instruments (including collaborations with Spitfire Audio) effects and Max for Live devices. I'm personally pretty excited.


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## Anders Bru (Nov 10, 2020)

Damn, this is great! Comping, multiple controller lanes, synced tracks for editing, macro presets for effect racks, crazy new effects and sounds from Spitfire (which I'm guessing is from Labs...). Can't wait!


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## ReleaseCandidate (Nov 10, 2020)

Locks said:


> I don't see many other Ableton Live users on this forum so I may be part of a minority in this regard.
> 
> 
> But if there are any of you out there, Ableton has just announced Live 11. There are some really great new features and as well as features that users have been requesting for quite some time that are common in other DAWs (such as comping and MPE support).
> ...


Yes, a piano, string quartet and brass quartet. No love for woodwinds! 

But comping and multitrack editing sold the update to me!


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## Mikro93 (Nov 10, 2020)

Pretty cool stuff! But I updated to 10 less than a year ago. Not stoked about having to spend 250 euros yet


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## ReleaseCandidate (Nov 10, 2020)

Mikro93 said:


> Pretty cool stuff! But I updated to 10 less than a year ago. Not stoked about having to spend 250 euros yet



The update should cost less, Suite upgrade is 200 EUR normally and now(?) 160 EUR with that 20% less


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## Mikro93 (Nov 10, 2020)

Yes, 160 euros indeed. Still not stoked


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## ReleaseCandidate (Nov 10, 2020)

Mikro93 said:


> Yes, 160 euros indeed. Still not stoked



Actually I would have never believed, that Ableton anounces 11 before Steinberg! The last versions (8 and 9) lasted almost 5 years IIRC.


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## ReleaseCandidate (Nov 10, 2020)

Good video showing the new features


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## fourier (Nov 10, 2020)

Hi guys, I haven't even introduced myself on the forum, but thought I should - as an long-time Ableton user - share this walkthrough by Slynk (more aimed towards the EDM production, but it's a good breakdown nontheless):


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## fourier (Nov 10, 2020)

Personally I'm very excited to try out the "Midicomping"-functionality, as I never feel satisfied when I try to record instruments, and spend forever trying to correct it manually. Taking snippets you're happy with allows for a more seamless workflow, imo.


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Nov 10, 2020)

I do have Suite 10, as I like using Ableton for Sound Design and working out musical ideas


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## dcairo_CFS (Nov 10, 2020)

I'm part of the Minority that use Ableton as Main DAW also for Media composition, and it's all super exiting mainly cause they are trying to stand out by adding Creative Tools and Features that Logic or Cubase are not implementing, unfortunately they don't care much about media composers, so no SMPTE, no Marker track,no Tempo maps and apparently no Full Function in Rewire, unless they added all of this but not advertised it. Anyway MPE and Audio/Midi Comping are amazing features, just hope they will add some little '' nerdy '' function to level the competition with Media Composer ''Standard'' DAW


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## midi-et-quart (Nov 10, 2020)

Great stuff, will definitely upgrade these days. Using it mainly for sound design I am more and more tempted to use it as my main DAW, even if the switch from Cubase doesn't seem that logical in the first place. 

The stock plug-ins are just my go-to's, didn't find a 3rd party plug-in vocoder as easy to use as the one in Ableton yet.


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## jcrosby (Nov 10, 2020)

I really hope they eventually bring bounce in place to Live 11.


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## Al Maurice (Nov 10, 2020)

Ableton is hard to beat when it comes to audio, having one of the simplest workflows of most DAWs.

Just still to my mind, over the last two versions they have been playing catch up in terms of MIDI capabilities.

For those who use Ableton as their principle DAW, having access to comping, MPE support and track linking makes it far more proficient, as well as some kind of tempo following feature; so it will be interesting to see, how the beta pans out in this area.


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## scarkord (Nov 10, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> I really hope they eventually bring bounce in place to Live 11.



You can kind of do that already with Freeze then Flatten. Dubspot have a good description of the process.



> Ableton Live: Freeze and Flatten vs. Resampling | Dubspot
> 
> 
> This tutorial demonstrates how to bounce audio in Ableton Live and explains the differences between resampling audio and freezing and flattening audio.
> ...


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## mussnig (Nov 10, 2020)

Anders Bru said:


> multiple controller lanes



What do you mean exactly by this?


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## scarkord (Nov 10, 2020)

mussnig said:


> What do you mean exactly by this?


Probably the ability to view multiple envelopes at the same time on separate lanes, which I assume looks like the following screen grab from the video about MPE. It also mentions it in the section labelled 'Improved Clip Detail View'...

"New tabs for Note Parameters, Follow Actions, Envelopes and MPE provide a clearer overview of and access to parameters and properties of a Clip"


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## mussnig (Nov 10, 2020)

scarkord said:


> Probably the ability to view multiple envelopes at the same time on separate lanes, which I assume looks like the following screen grab from the video about MPE. It also mentions it in the section labelled 'Improved Clip Detail View'...
> 
> "New tabs for Note Parameters, Follow Actions, Envelopes and MPE provide a clearer overview of and access to parameters and properties of a Clip"



That's why I was asking. I saw that Live 11 has multiple lanes in some views (like MPE) but I was hoping for multiple lanes in Envelope View, e.g., to view multiple MIDI CCs at the same time. In Live 10 this is not possible and I am now using M4L-Plugins that send MIDI CC data (or alternatively use Host automation), which allows me to have multiple MIDI CCs visible at the same time in the lanes in Arrangement View. Still, I would like to have this in Clip View as well ...


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## scarkord (Nov 10, 2020)

mussnig said:


> That's why I was asking. I saw that Live 11 has multiple lanes in some views (like MPE) but I was hoping for multiple lanes in Envelope View, e.g., to view multiple MIDI CCs at the same time. In Live 10 this is not possible and I am now using M4L-Plugins that send MIDI CC data (or alternatively use Host automation), which allows me to have multiple MIDI CCs visible at the same time in the lanes in Arrangement View. Still, I would like to have this in Clip View as well ...


Agreed - will be really powerful if it works that way (fingers crossed!)


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## dcairo_CFS (Nov 10, 2020)

scarkord said:


> Probably the ability to view multiple envelopes at the same time on separate lanes, which I assume looks like the following screen grab from the video about MPE. It also mentions it in the section labelled 'Improved Clip Detail View'...
> 
> "New tabs for Note Parameters, Follow Actions, Envelopes and MPE provide a clearer overview of and access to parameters and properties of a Clip"


I Think the multiple lanes is just for MPE lnes, normal MIDI only have Velocity and Chance for the Random function, it will be inteesting to see if all the library developers wll add MPE functions and controls to their Libraries that would change everything


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## Pier (Nov 10, 2020)

Mikro93 said:


> Pretty cool stuff! But I updated to 10 less than a year ago. Not stoked about having to spend 250 euros yet



Same... I spent $300 to update to Live 10 just a year ago. Live 9 was released in 2013 and Live 10 in 2018. I really expected my investment to last a couple more years.

Also, Ableton is selling Live 10 Suite + Live 11 when it comes out for $600 to new customers. But I, an actual customer for years, have to pay 30% of that ($229) just to get the Live 11 features?

To put $229 into perspective, you can get Cubase Pro for $330 with a crossgrade from another DAW. Bitwig also has Christmas sales where you can get their full DAW for about $300 too.

Sorry for the rant guys but I'm not too happy about this. I feel like I made a mistake doubling down on Live 10.


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## ReleaseCandidate (Nov 10, 2020)

Pier said:


> To put $229 into perspective, you can get Cubase Pro for $330 with a crossgrade from another DAW. Bitwig also has Christmas sales where you can get their full DAW for about $300 too.



You pay 160 EUR for Bitwig to stay up-to-date every year, and you can't compare it to Suite (I used Bitwig, great ideas, but many very basic features are lacking - like MIDI export). Bitwig is _really_ way more expensive than Live.


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## Pier (Nov 10, 2020)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> You pay 160 EUR for Bitwig to stay up-to-date every year, and you can't compare it to Suite (I used Bitwig, great ideas, but many very basic features are lacking - like MIDI export). Bitwig is _really_ way more expensive than Live.



But you don't have to pay every year. You can wait a year or two after your 12 months have passed, and then buy the upgrade and get all the new features. Not so much with Live.

FYI in the past 4 years I've spent about $1000 on Live (Live 9 suite + Live 10 upgrade).


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## kitekrazy (Nov 10, 2020)

Pier said:


> Same... I spent $300 to update to Live 10 just a year ago. Live 9 was released in 2013 and Live 10 in 2018. I really expected my investment to last a couple more years.
> 
> Also, Ableton is selling Live 10 Suite + Live 11 when it comes out for $600 to new customers. But I, an actual customer for years, have to pay 30% of that ($229) just to get the Live 11 features?
> 
> ...



I agree. The Suite is a big waste of money and probably done with that. As one who has too many DAWs I start to keep track of the frequent upgrades. Some have become a money pit. I left Sonar some time ago but may go back because they are constantly improving it and doesn't cost anything. I'm a fan of Live but keeping up with Suite upgrades is not worth it.


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## Brasart (Nov 10, 2020)

I only use Ableton too, I have to say I'm not too keen on spending money on a new upgrade so quickly after 10 came out, especially since this update looks like a lot of utility improvements that I was expecting coming out during 10.

But who am I kidding, I love Ableton, I use it daily, I'll buy their damn update


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## ReleaseCandidate (Nov 10, 2020)

Pier said:


> But you don't have to pay every year. You can wait a year or two after your 12 months have passed, and then buy the upgrade and get all the new features.



Yes, that's one side. But you have to pay for updates of (more or less) the same version you already have to get bugfixes if you have got bad luck.



Pier said:


> FYI in the past 4 years I've spent about $1000 on Live (Live 9 suite + Live 10 upgrade).



Yes, that's the 'advange' Ableton has, as Live is the #1 DAW (not least because everybody bundles it with their hardware). But still (use Live since 5 or 6) no other DAW comes close in 'workflow' for anything but mixing (I recently discovered Mixbus and use that, before I used DP to mix) to me, and in the last months I again tried any other (except Logic), just to return to Live. So: don't buy, if it ain't worth that much for you (you can now, with a non-Lite 10 license, get the 11 beta version to try).


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## emid (Nov 10, 2020)

I have Live 10 standard installed but my basic DAW is Studio One. For me Live is awesome for jotting down the ideas, be them midi or recording. I almost daily use Live Looper with my Kieth McMillen Softstep device and transfer guitar recordings from Live by just dragging and dropping into Studio One. I do not find Live intuitive when mixing. Comping has been available in other DAWs for long time but good to see it is being implemented in Live too. The new feature of Live 11 adjusting its tempo based on incoming audio in real time is what making me inclined towards buying this as upgrade to Live 10 Suite which is £215 for me with free upgrade to 11. Undecided yet.


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## Pier (Nov 10, 2020)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> no other DAW comes close in 'workflow' for anything but mixing



Doesn't Bitwig have a similar workflow? I only demoed it a couple of times but it seemed very similar.


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## pixel (Nov 10, 2020)

Live is my 2nd DAW after Cubase. I'm skipping upgrades to 11 for both. I had hope that new versions will blend with each other in functionalities that I like in both but no. Thus I'll continue using both in current version for their specific features. 
Live is still missing option to quickly bounce to audio and disable track. 
Cubase still doesn't have native modulation tools and classic mixer insert effects are not sound designer friendly (like Live is). 
Maybe 12 will be more lucky number for me


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## Damarus (Nov 10, 2020)

Happy to see an update for Ableton, but I wish there was some more focus on.. ya know pretty much everything DJ pointed out in his video long ago about why he switched to Cubase. Most of that stuff is pretty obvious workflow enhancements.


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## ReleaseCandidate (Nov 10, 2020)

Pier said:


> Doesn't Bitwig have a similar workflow? I only demoed it a couple of times but it seemed very similar.


In most aspects but the main one: editing of MIDI and audio. In Live you have more or less one tool (the pencil) that does everything where as in Bitwig you have to change tools (pencil, eraser, knife, ...) and use the (context sensitive) menues like in a 'normal' DAWs. Bitwig is what Studio One wanted to be, a middle ground between Live and Cubase (or Reaper or Cakewalk).


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## rrichard63 (Nov 10, 2020)

kitekrazy said:


> The Suite is a big waste of money and probably done with that.


I think that depends on whether or not you want/need Max 4 Live. Without M4L, yes, Suite wouldn't be worth the extra cost.


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## Brasart (Nov 10, 2020)

pixel said:


> Live is my 2nd DAW after Cubase. I'm skipping upgrades to 11 for both. I had hope that new versions will blend with each other in functionalities that I like in both but no. Thus I'll continue using both in current version for their specific features.
> Live is still missing option to quickly bounce to audio and disable track.
> Cubase still doesn't have native modulation tools and classic mixer insert effects are not sound designer friendly (like Live is).
> Maybe 12 will be more lucky number for me



Disabling track is quite easy and quick to do: shift + 0 on a selected clip


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## KallumS (Nov 10, 2020)

Did anyone notice you can set different time signatures per track? Seriously cool. I caved.


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## doctoremmet (Nov 10, 2020)

KallumS said:


> Did anyone notice you can set different time signatures per track? Seriously cool. I caved.


That IS good news!


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## pixel (Nov 10, 2020)

Brasart said:


> Disabling track is quite easy and quick to do: shift + 0 on a selected clip



I never heard about this shortcut. Only about '0' but it's not disabling track in the way Cubase is doing it (keeping a track with all the settings but disabling all the plugins on it = no CPU usage). Live just 'mute' it.


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## mussnig (Nov 10, 2020)

Brasart said:


> Disabling track is quite easy and quick to do: shift + 0 on a selected clip



Yes, but it's not the same "disabled" as in other DAWs, where disabled tracks don't need RAM and CPU. When you disable a track in Ableton, it will still use RAM and CPU (in most cases). When you have e.g. Kontakt on a track, then you have to really deactivate the External Instrument to save CPU but afaik it will still need the RAM (I am not completely sure though). In any case, this makes it practically impossible to create huge templates ...


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## ReleaseCandidate (Nov 10, 2020)

mussnig said:


> In any case, this makes it practically impossible to create huge templates ...



But you don't need huge templates in your current project or set but in many template projects (sets) from where you select and drag your tracks. In the browser you can also search this projects for certain tracks.
And also if I don't need tracks any more I drag and drop them into a new set of the current project. Is as fast or convenient as disabling and hiding and searching and reenabling and unhiding tracks.


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## Dr.Quest (Nov 10, 2020)

Switched to Ableton 10 as my main setup a few years ago. This looks very cool!


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## Brasart (Nov 10, 2020)

pixel said:


> I never heard about this shortcut. Only about '0' but it's not disabling track in the way Cubase is doing it (keeping a track with all the settings but disabling all the plugins on it = no CPU usage). Live just 'mute' it.



Right, yes, didn't understand you meant disable as in the whole track from the mixer standpoint, I don't think this is possible afaik, or I've never came across a shortcut like this before


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## mussnig (Nov 10, 2020)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> But you don't need huge templates in your current project or set but in many template projects (sets) from where you select and drag your tracks. In the browser you can also search this projects for certain tracks.



Yes of course, that is true. I personally don't really use any templates, except for some pre-grouped and colored empty MIDI tracks (just to keep everything organized from the beginning). But I understand that many people want to have all their favorite sounds/patches just ready or a click away. I guess if you are used to working like this, it would be inconvenient to always drag some tracks from the browser just to have a quick listen ...


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## Brasart (Nov 10, 2020)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> But you don't need huge templates in your current project or set but in many template projects (sets) from where you select and drag your tracks. In the browser you can also search this projects for certain tracks.



That's how I've set up my templates indeed, I love how it works


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## mussnig (Nov 10, 2020)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> But you don't need huge templates in your current project or set but in many template projects (sets) from where you select and drag your tracks. In the browser you can also search this projects for certain tracks.
> And also if I don't need tracks any more I drag and drop them into a new set of the current project. Is as fast or convenient as disabling and hiding and searching and reenabling and unhiding tracks.



Also another thing: if you drag and drop a track from another project/template into the current project, the Delay value of the track will not be loaded (or maybe I am missing something here?) E.g., if you would like to have template sets with more or less correct preDelay values set, you will lose those values as soon as drag the track into your current project.


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## ReleaseCandidate (Nov 10, 2020)

mussnig said:


> Also another thing: if you drag and drop a track from another project/template into the current project, the Delay value of the track will not be loaded (or maybe I am missing something here?) E.g., if you would like to have template sets with more or less correct preDelay values set, you will lose those values as soon as drag the track into your current project.



That's true, I've just tested it. I've never used track delays, because I'm not a 'one articulation per track'-man. I always use some sort of switching with rack chain selectors as last resort.


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## mussnig (Nov 10, 2020)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> That's true, I've just tested it. I've never used track delays, because I'm not a 'one articulation per track'-man. I always use some sort of switching with rack chain selectors as last resort.



I've thought about this a couple of times (because sometimes I would like to have everything on one track) but I never figured how I could achieve different delays for different articulations this way. Is it possible?
Otherwise, you would of course need to move certain notes accordingly and then move them again, once you change the tempo ...

I think in Reaper and Cubase (I have neither, though) it is possible to have Macros that basically move the notes back and forth on playback, according to the currently selected articulation.


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## ReleaseCandidate (Nov 10, 2020)

mussnig said:


> I've thought about this a couple of times (because sometimes I would like to have everything on one track) but I never figured how I could achieve different delays for different articulations this way. Is it possible?



Yes, you can use some 'note delay' (these are all M4L devices, IIRC, so you need Suite) and switch that according to your articulation - but that works for positive delays only, not like track delay.
But most of the time I select all notes manually and nudge them or play the phrase in with a keyboard if it's longer. I'm way better at handling delays subconsciosly, when playing.
And yes, with expression management that's way easier, I imagine at least.


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## Locks (Nov 10, 2020)

Pier said:


> Doesn't Bitwig have a similar workflow? I only demoed it a couple of times but it seemed very similar.



IIRC, Bitwig has the involvement of several ex-Ableton developers hence the similarity in design and workflow.


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## mussnig (Nov 10, 2020)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> Yes, you can use some 'note delay' (these are all M4L devices, IIRC, so you need Suite) and switch that according to your articulation - but that works for positive delays only, not like track delay.
> But most of the time I select all notes manually and nudge them or play the phrase in with a keyboard if it's longer. I'm way better at handling delays subconsciosly, when playing.
> And yes, with expression management that's way easier, I imagine at least.



Thank you! I didn't know that and will definitely try it. And of course, positive delay only for this effect is not a problem - you still have the negative delay for the track as a whole ...


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## Pier (Nov 10, 2020)

I just can't...

Live 9 users are paying almost the same to upgrade to Live 11 as Live 10 users.


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## jcrosby (Nov 10, 2020)

scarkord said:


> You can kind of do that already with Freeze then Flatten. Dubspot have a good description of the process.


Yeah but freeze and flatten are affected by sidechain routing, and if you have a MIDI track connected to a separate VST/AU instrument track. (I.e. multi-channel, VEP, etc). If so then freezing is impossible...

The closer _version_ of this is resampling in Live, however resampling will only work as long as your CPU isn't choking... Once you get to a point where you have dropouts you can toss that out the window so you're back to square one with freeze.

The whole point of true bounce in place is to convert any and all tracks into audio without any caveats by by bouncing each selected track offline inside the session. It also gives you the benefit of bouncing multiple channels down to a single audio file, which I use in Logic all the time if I'm getting near the stem phase.

It also just seems like if they're finally going to add things like comping and multi-track editing they might as well round out the bunch by adding bounce in place...

Either way I'm on the beta waiting list and the 1st thing I'm either requesting, or voting on if already requested is bounce in place.

Also going to request or vote on:


Clip "gain handles" - (a la Studio One)
VST/AU plugin catgeorization/'virtual' folders.
More collection colors - (Why 7 ?! Who the hell settled on 7?!! )


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## Mikro93 (Nov 10, 2020)

Can you not just render your tracks and then re-import them into the project?


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## jcrosby (Nov 10, 2020)

Pier said:


> I just can't...
> 
> Live 9 users are paying almost the same to upgrade to Live 11 as Live 10 users.




Think of this... Bitwig users have to pay $170 every year to stay current. With Live you pay the upgrade once for the life of the version cycle.. At this price Live is actually the better deal overall.


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## Locks (Nov 10, 2020)

I'm pretty keen on the new CPU monitoring tools. It will be so useful being able to single out overly CPU hungry tracks early on before they become an issue.


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## jcrosby (Nov 10, 2020)

Mikro93 said:


> Can you not just render your tracks and then re-import them into the project?


Sure. But as someone who had to work that way in the days of yore that is painfully show compared to rendering inside the session. 

If you have anything on the mix bus or on your groups it becomes even slower as it has to crunch all of those numbers too. Bounce in place renders only what's inserted on the channel, or what the channel is routed to and as long as your channels are bogged down with processing it's super quick... An ideal version of this would also pull up a dialogue to include or exclude and effect tails.

It's more or less standard in every other DAW, and has been for years... No reason why Live shouldn't have this... By 2021!


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## Pier (Nov 10, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> Think of this... Bitwig users have to pay $170 every year to stay current. With Live you pay the upgrade once for the life of the version cycle.. At this price Live is actually the better deal overall.



I paid $300 a year ago to upgrade to Live 10. I could have just waited a year and get Live 11 for $200 instead of $500.

Also, AFAIK with Bitwig you can skip years and then get all the pending upgrades.


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## jcrosby (Nov 10, 2020)

Pier said:


> I paid $300 a year ago to upgrade to Live 10. I could have just waited a year and get Live 11 for $200 instead of $500.
> 
> Also, AFAIK with Bitwig you can skip years and then get all the pending upgrades.


Sure you can indeed... But BW isn't perfect and they've had a lot of bugs lately. If you get left with a nasty one when your year is up you're SOL.

And I totally get that... Unfortunately that's the reality of software. If developers caved to every requests from a user about _just missing_ the upgrade price window, or not having to pay an upgrade fee after _x _amount of months no one would pay an upgrade fee unless they were more than a version behind. That doesn't fund good development.

Development is also EXPENSIVE. If you want Ableton to continue to exist you have to pay into it from time to time. This is actually the cheapest upgrade price I've seen for Live ever. (Unlike, ahem.. NI. The _Collectors Edition_ is outright bullshit.) I see $183 when I log in, the lowest I've paid for a Live upgrade previously was $220, before that I believe it was closer to $300... While it isn't great the price is a hell of a lot better than it has been.

Personally I see the pricing as being reflective of competition from other DAWs finally starting to develop their own version of Live's unique hook... The 'Session' view. (I personally think Logic 10.5 was the actual shots fired moment for them as opposed to Bitwig... Logic is widely used and $200 gets you everything... I digress...)

We all get stuck with buyers remorse at some point... E.G. I just bought a Kontakt library for $60 the night before it got bundled with two other libraries for $40. Am I frustrated? Sure. But that's on me for impulsively buying it at full price when I did... We all wish we had a sales time machine but we don't!


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## Pier (Nov 10, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> Sure you can indeed... But BW isn't perfect and they've had a lot of bugs lately. If you get left with a nasty one when your year is up you're SOL.
> 
> And I totally get that... Unfortunately that's the reality of software. If developers caved to every requests from a user about _just missing_ the upgrade price window, or not having to pay an upgrade fee after _x _amount of months no one would pay an upgrade fee unless they were more than a version behind. That doesn't fund good development.
> 
> ...



I would agree with your arguments if more time had passed between Live 10 and Live 11.

It's perfectly fine if Ableton decides to shorten their release cycle to two three years (from five years between Live 9 and 10). In that case, the sensible thing to do would be making the decision public when they released Live 10. Or at least offer a much better deal to Live 10 users for upgrading to Live 11 than Live 9 users.

Maybe you missed it from my previous comment, but Ableton is offering the same Live 11 upgrade deal to Live 9 users with $10 of difference.


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## emid (Nov 10, 2020)

Please advice me. What will be the upgrade price from Live 10 standard to Live 11 standard? I already have Max for Live and I don't want to pay £215 to upgrade to Live 10 Suite for some samples and later free a upgrade to 11 Suite.


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## jcrosby (Nov 10, 2020)

Pier said:


> I would agree with your arguments if more time had passed between Live 10 and Live 11.
> 
> It's perfectly fine if Ableton decides to shorten their release cycle to two years (from five years between Live 9 and 10). In that case, the sensible thing to do would be making the decision public when they released Live 10. Or at least offer a much better deal to Live 10 users for upgrading to Live 11 than Live 9 users.
> 
> Maybe you missed it from my previous comment, but Ableton is offering the same Live 11 upgrade deal to Live 9 users with $10 of difference.


This isn't the 1st time actually. I don't remember if it was Live 6 to Live 7, or Live 7 to Live 8, but there was at least one previous version where the development cycle was super short.

I personally think it's partially related to Apple, and partially related to the growing demand of 4k and retina support. Live would have needed a complete UI overhaul anyway for improved visibility on high res monitors, and UI overhauls simply don't happen in a dot update... (At least with Ableton.) As someone who uses a retina display sometimes Live has become painful on the eyes... (Like seriously. I get crazy eye strain trying to Read Live's shitty tiny text.)

I also think it may have something to do with Apple/ARM. Why? OS requirement is 10.13 and beyond, i.e. metal graphics....

No idea if there's any accuracy to that but Ableton have done this in the past... It doesn't necessarily mean they're permanently moving to a 2 year development cycle. And I'm not saying this makes it sting any less. But dropping earlier OS support in the middle of a Live version wouldn't go over well.. Apple my get their rocks off doing that but it would be a bad look for Ableton.

Who knows... That's my theory... I personally don't think Ableton are doing it strictly as a "money grab". (God I hate that fucking term )


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## kitekrazy (Nov 11, 2020)

Pier said:


> I just can't...
> 
> Live 9 users are paying almost the same to upgrade to Live 11 as Live 10 users.



I don't know how that shows up as $183. I have a 9 Suite license and the upgrade to 10 is $199. My upgrade from 10 Suite is to 11 is $229.


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## Pier (Nov 11, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> I personally think it's partially related to Apple, and partially related to the growing demand of 4k and retina support. Live would have needed a complete UI overhaul anyway for improved visibility on high res monitors, and UI overhauls simply don't happen in a dot update...



That's a good point. I seem to remember reading in Live 10 they switched to a vector based UI.

Some people have complained about the new UI being sluggish though. I saw this video just yesterday:



FYI they switched to Metal on 10.1.25:









Live 10 Release Notes | Ableton







www.ableton.com


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## Pier (Nov 11, 2020)

kitekrazy said:


> I have a 9 Suite license and the upgrade to 10 is $199. My upgrade from 10 Suite is to 11 is $229.



The upgrade from 9 to 10 includes 11 when it comes out.

Also, the upgrade from 10 to 11 has a 20% discount now.


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## apollinaire (Nov 11, 2020)

A very long time Logic Pro user here, but i really love this Ableton update. I have to admit that sometimes i get the feeling the LPX is a dinosaur in comparison to Ableton (esp 11). What i'm mainly referring to is the ideology, and the experimental/futuristic "spirit" of Ableton. I love Collision, Corpus, Resonator, all the various CV integrations, Racks, plus these new Spectral FX and MPE Control and more. I wish there were similar things built-into LPX. LPX has some great plug-ins that need serious revamping/updating but i sometimes wonder if would need to be rebuilt from scratch since so many plug-ins, features have been around for decades. It's similar to building new, modern additions to an already existing old house and foundation, ultimately it 's not as efficient as building a brand new modern house from the ground up.


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## Pier (Nov 11, 2020)

apollinaire said:


> A very long time Logic Pro user here, but i really love this Ableton update. I have to admit that sometimes i get the feeling the LPX is a dinosaur in comparison to Ableton (esp 11). What i'm mainly referring to is the ideology, and the experimental/futuristic "spirit" of Ableton. I love Collision, Corpus, Resonator, all the various CV integrations, Racks, plus these new Spectral FX and MPE Control and more. I wish there were similar things built-into LPX. LPX has some great plug-ins that need serious revamping/updating but i sometimes wonder if would need to be rebuilt from scratch since so many plug-ins, features have been around for decades.



I used Logic for years and switched to Live precisely for the reason you mention. It's a more forward thinking software. You can combine effects and instruments into racks which gives you a lot of flexibility in terms of sound design and control.

Another killer feature of Live are macros. Any parameter in a rack or device can be controlled via macros. The amazing thing is that once you select a device the macros can be automatically mapped to your controller. This is probably less relevant for media composers which mostly use the modulation wheel, but it's essential when using synths.

Bitwig is similar in this regard, even more advanced. It has many (most?) of the Live features, but there's also a complete modular environment built right into the DAW.

OTOH Logic costs $200 and, as long as you keep using macOS, you will get updates for years and years. Apple could give it away for free as they only use Logic to keep selling macs.


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## Damarus (Nov 11, 2020)

Agreed with the statements above. Great native plugins and effects. Super fast workflow.

I really hope they soon look at obvious enhancements to Midi and other QoL features like:


Better velocity adjustments. (like Cubase)
Editing multiple midi clips (actually edit the midi in multiple clips, not the current half-ass version)
More advanced Midi clip editing (Like Cubase)
Better mix window with fx sends and routing
*Custom key commands* (Why isnt this a thing yet)


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## apollinaire (Nov 11, 2020)

Pier said:


> I used Logic for years and switched to Live precisely for the reason you mention. It's a more forward thinking software. You can combine effects and instruments into racks which gives you a lot of flexibility in terms of sound design and control.
> 
> Another killer feature of Live are macros. Any parameter in a rack or device can be controlled via macros. The amazing thing is that once you select a device the macros can be automatically mapped to your controller. This is probably less relevant for media composers which mostly use the modulation wheel, but it's essential when using synths.


Great points, Pier. I'm thinking i will begin to learn Abelton at some point soon and maybe, at some point be so fluid on the platform that i could switch over from LPX. Thing is, i've been on LPX for about 15 years and know it like the back of my hand. I have done so much sound-design, patches, sound banks for the built-in plug -ins/synths it's hard to part with it all. I know at the very least i could develop a work-flow using both (rewiring Ableton into LPX) and use them both for their strengths.


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## mussnig (Nov 11, 2020)

Damarus said:


> Agreed with the statements above. Great native plugins and effects. Super fast workflow.
> 
> I really hope they soon look at obvious enhancements to Midi and other QoL features like:
> 
> ...



Regarding Custom key commands: Did you have a look at Live Enhancement Suite?





Live Enhancement Suite


Live Enhancement Suite is a free workflow enhancement tool, making your Ableton Live workflow faster and efficient. Download it here.




enhancementsuite.me





I never really used it but it seems some people really like it.

Also, I recently found this very nice substitute for Expression Maps: https://www.swub.de/en/software/keyswitch-expression-map-ableton-live/

Its not free but I think the price is more than fair and I think I will try it soon. I saw it already some time ago but at that point I didn't want to reconsider my approach of having individual tracks per articulation because of differences in volume and also differences in delays. However, I learned in this thread that there are M4L devices that can help with the delay and therefore I will reconsider ...


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## rrichard63 (Nov 11, 2020)

kitekrazy said:


> I have a 9 Suite license and the upgrade to 10 is $199. My upgrade from 10 Suite is to 11 is $229.


This seems odd. Does anyone know why it's true? Since the upgrade to 10 includes a free upgrade from 10 to 11, this makes me wonder whether the free part is from 10 Suite to 11 standard rather than to 11 Suite.


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## Damarus (Nov 11, 2020)

mussnig said:


> Regarding Custom key commands: Did you have a look at Live Enhancement Suite?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah LES is great - most of it is based on simple features that should already be in Ableton.. 


That keyswitch device is interesting though!


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## ReleaseCandidate (Nov 11, 2020)

mussnig said:


> Also, I recently found this very nice substitute for Expression Maps: https://www.swub.de/en/software/keyswitch-expression-map-ableton-live/



Looks like he more or less made a visual frontend to the rack's chain selector. The difference to only using this is that you see the name of the rack layer in the automation lane instead of the index of the current layer and not only in the rack device.
Bitwig does this better and shows the layer's name in the automation lane (but you need an instrument switcher device that is only availabe in Studio).

You know how you can use a dummy Drum Rack to name certain keys to use as e.g. key switches (that's easier in Live as in Bitwig)?


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## jcrosby (Nov 11, 2020)

Pier said:


> That's a good point. I seem to remember reading in Live 10 they switched to a vector based UI.
> 
> Some people have complained about the new UI being sluggish though. I saw this video just yesterday:
> 
> ...



Interesting! Ever since 10.1.25 I get a red screen if I have Kontakt in any project. They said some other users have had the issue and confirm it's related to NI products and 10.1.25. I actually had to email support and have them tell me how to set Live back to OpenGL for the time being...

I really do think it's partially to do with graphics support and typical Apple nonsense... And I also hope they don't move to a shorter 2 year development cycle. It's starting to become exhausting keeping everything working 

Anyway definitely didn't want to dilute your point yesterday. Live certainly isn't cheap and I see how it can be frustrating..


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## mussnig (Nov 11, 2020)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> Looks like he more or less made a visual frontend to the rack's chain selector. The difference to only using this is that you see the name of the rack layer in the automation lane instead of the index of the current layer and not only in the rack device.
> Bitwig does this better and shows the layer's name in the automation lane (but you need an instrument switcher device that is only availabe in Studio).
> 
> You know how you can use a dummy Drum Rack to name certain keys to use as e.g. key switches (that's easier in Live as in Bitwig)?



Well, one of the differences is that with this device, you really get discrete values in the automation lane and it kind of snaps to those values, when you want to adjust it. If you just automate the chain selector that's not possible (and also does not show you the correct names). If you use e.g. some patches from Spitfire you can also activate Articulation automation in Live which will show you automatically the correct names but again, the automation lane is not going to have discrete values (so it's not going to snap).

Yes, I know about the dummy Drum Rack (should also be possible with other racks) but I am not quite happy with that solution - especially if the keyswitches are two octaves below of where the instrument range is (of course, in most patches you can change this).

I also like that this device from the link can display the pitch range of an instrument, protect the automation lane and apparently it can also take care of delaying the notes a bit, so that the keyswitches trigger before the note would be played.


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## ReleaseCandidate (Nov 11, 2020)

mussnig said:


> Well, one of the differences is that with this device, you really get discrete values in the automation lane and it kind of snaps to those values, when you want to adjust it. If you just automate the chain selector that's not possible (and also does not show you the correct names).



Yes, that's what I tried to say above 




mussnig said:


> I also like that this device from the link can display the pitch range of an instrument, protect the automation lane and apparently it can also take care of delaying the notes a bit, so that the keyswitches trigger before the note would be played.



Ah, I see.


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## drews (Nov 11, 2020)

Not going to lie, I’m fairly salty that as a suite user who recently paid $700 bucks or whatever for their software that I have to now spend an extra $200 to get poly after touch support. What DAW nowadays doesn’t have poly AT? If they’ve really been working on it for a while then they should have released it in a 10.6 update for free, I shouldn’t have to pay $200 just to have my “premium” software finally have parity with every other free software


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## jcrosby (Nov 11, 2020)

mussnig said:


> Regarding Custom key commands: Did you have a look at Live Enhancement Suite?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can't believe I didn't know about this, thanks. Going to install this now and see what I think...


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## emid (Nov 11, 2020)

rrichard63 said:


> This seems odd. Does anyone know why it's true? Since the upgrade to 10 includes a free upgrade from 10 to 11, this makes me wonder whether the free part is from 10 Suite to 11 standard rather than to 11 Suite.



It's in the Live 11 Pre-order FAQ



> *I own Live 10 Standard, can I pre-order Live 11 Standard?*
> The pre-order offer is only for Live 11 Suite, not Standard.
> 
> However, if you own Live 10 Standard or Live 10 Standard EDU and upgrade to Live 10 Suite during the discount campaign, you will automatically receive a free upgrade to _Live 11 Suite_.


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## paulmatthew (Nov 13, 2020)

Locks said:


> I'm pretty keen on the new CPU monitoring tools. It will be so useful being able to single out overly CPU hungry tracks early on before they become an issue.


It's a bummer that the cpu track monitors are only available in the session view. It would be more handy to also have it available in the arranger view on the right side of each track just under where the sends are shown.


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## mussnig (Nov 13, 2020)

paulmatthew said:


> It's a bummer that the cpu track monitors are only available in the session view. It would be more handy to also have it available in the arranger view on the right side of each track just under where the sends are shown.



Is there any official place where users can request/suggest features?


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## ReleaseCandidate (Nov 13, 2020)

mussnig said:


> Is there any official place where users can request/suggest features?





Feature Wishlist - Ableton Forum


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## Brasart (Nov 13, 2020)

I once asked support for a fix/new feature, to which they directed me here to make suggestions: https://ableton.centercode.com/home.html

I think this might be a better place to voice needs than their forums.


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## Technostica (Nov 13, 2020)

Pier said:


> I would agree with your arguments if more time had passed between Live 10 and Live 11.
> 
> It's perfectly fine if Ableton decides to shorten their release cycle to two years (from five years between Live 9 and 10).


The gap between ten and eleven will be three years not two.
If they make the upgrades more frequently but not so expensive that seems reasonable.


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## ReleaseCandidate (Nov 13, 2020)

Brasart said:


> I once asked support for a fix/new feature, to which they directed me here to make suggestions: https://ableton.centercode.com/home.html



That's true. But you cannot enter (well, you need applicate to get into the forums, which now also takes time because of the 11 announcement) the beta forums without having at least Live Standard.


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## paulmatthew (Nov 13, 2020)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> That's true. But you cannot enter (well, you need applicate to get into the forums, which now also takes time because of the 11 announcement) the beta forums without having at least Live Standard.


I have just entered the suggestion in the beta forums under this very topic.


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## nglez (Nov 13, 2020)

I'm playing with the Beta and I love it. For people who complain about the pricing, I actually think it is not that bad, considering all the things you get out of the Box with Live Suite (killer stock plug ins, and stock synths, + M4L!!), you could go a long way with the stock stuff, the only thing you would need to purchase separately is Kontakt. also incremental point updates so far have always been free and usually bring some nice new features (for e.g cv tools). I also am a Cubase user an I think the Live update is a lot more impressive than Cubase 11, I will probably not upgrade right away (although I really could use that new export queue thingy  ) I really wish I could do everything in Live, as it really gets my creative juices flowing but unfortunately I need to get back to Cubase for scoring related things, Live is horrible with video (especially on WIN), markers, tempo maps etc and compared to cubase the midi editor still feels a bit clunky.


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## nglez (Nov 13, 2020)

dcairo_CFS said:


> I'm part of the Minority that use Ableton as Main DAW also for Media composition, and it's all super exiting mainly cause they are trying to stand out by adding Creative Tools and Features that Logic or Cubase are not implementing, unfortunately they don't care much about media composers, so no SMPTE, no Marker track,no Tempo maps and apparently no Full Function in Rewire, unless they added all of this but not advertised it. Anyway MPE and Audio/Midi Comping are amazing features, just hope they will add some little '' nerdy '' function to level the competition with Media Composer ''Standard'' DAW



I feel you, just a couple of basic things like quick marker navigation, tempo maps etc would already make a huge difference. Unfortunately Rewire is on its way out anyways, Propellerheads is not maintaining and supporting that anymore...


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## jcrosby (Nov 13, 2020)

mussnig said:


> Is there any official place where users can request/suggest features?


Also you can sign up for the public beta.





__





Join the Live 11 Public Beta test!






ableton.centercode.com





Also I've been in the Live 10 beta since jan. 2018. Abelton have more or less not been replying to feature requests in the Live 10 beta for well over a year. The only real chance of getting eyes on a request for 11 is to register for the Live 11 beta and make requests there.


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## mussnig (Dec 21, 2020)

Does anyone know how long one needs to wait to join the beta? I've been waiting more than a month now ...


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## jcrosby (Dec 22, 2020)

mussnig said:


> Does anyone know how long one needs to wait to join the beta? I've been waiting more than a month now ...


It took a couple of weeks for them to open it up and I signed up within the 1st 24 hours...


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