# How many elitist musical snobs are successful?



## jononotbono (Aug 19, 2020)

I’m just musing over a few thoughts and absorbing the number of incredible musicians, composers, sound designers and everyone else in between that I’ve ever had the fortune to meet over the years. Every single one of them have been humble, kind and open minded. All successful. I’ve also met a lot of cretinous people over the years but they have never been successful. Big fish in a little pond type state of affairs.

And this got me thinking. How many people, who are incredibly successful, are elitist snobs? You know, nasty bitchy ivory-tower living elitists that think, sorry, KNOW they are better than everyone else? Snobs that happily snub other people’s artforms, entire genres and styles, into the toilet without a care in the world? 😂

I’d love to think not many but perhaps that’s just me being naive and wishful thinking? I always get the impression that the most successful film and tv composers are really nice, kind and open minded people. I mean, I can’t imagine someone like John Williams being a vicious elitist snob! Just the thought of that is making me laugh! But hey, maybe I’m wrong 😂

Just curious.


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## asherpope (Aug 19, 2020)

Not sure if he was particularly elitist, but Lou Reed seemed to be a nasty piece of work. I agree with your theory though


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## Rory (Aug 19, 2020)

You've spent enough time in New York to know that there are plenty of successful people who are fairly arrogant. There's no reason to think that composers are in some kind of special category where everyone who is successful is "humble, kind and open minded". If you want the name of someone really, really famous, there's a rather important New York composer, now deceased, who comes immediately to mind. I'll leave it to others to flag the name


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## dzilizzi (Aug 19, 2020)

I think the more famous some people get the nastier they seem to be. I don't know if this is a result of feeling like everyone wants something from you and the only way they take "No" is if it is done in a nasty manner. Or if they started out not so nice, and just got worse. Fortunately, I think most famous people are just like us with a bit more money. 

That said, I think composers, sound designers, etc... are mostly only famous to other musical people who are interested in the same music. And maybe film buffs. I had no idea who Hans Zimmer was until I started hanging out here. I'd heard his music, of course. But it wasn't something I could sing to, so I didn't really pay attention to the composers. Now, I'm more interested.


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## CT (Aug 19, 2020)

Rory said:


> there's a rather important New York composer, now deceased, who comes immediately to mind. I'll leave it to others to flag the name



If we're thinking of the same person, I wonder how "successful" I'd deem him. Important, as you said, in his field, sure. But did he reach a meaningful audience, or did his penchant for the exact myopia that jono is describing condemn him to academic obscurity from the outset?


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## Rory (Aug 19, 2020)

Mike T said:


> If we're thinking of the same person, I wonder how "successful" I'd deem him. Important, as you said, in his field, sure. But did he reach a meaningful audience, or did his penchant for the exact myopia that jono is describing condemn him to academic obscurity from the outset?




I said "really, really famous"


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## CT (Aug 19, 2020)

Ignore my allusion, then... I love everyone!


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## jononotbono (Aug 19, 2020)

Rory said:


> You've spent enough time in New York to know that there are plenty of successful people who are fairly arrogant




I don't recognise anyone because they are all wearing masks!


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## jononotbono (Aug 19, 2020)

Has anyone actually met anyone (film, TV, Video Game composers) that they we’re expecting to be really nice but in real life they turned out to be complete and total tyrannical monsters? Their public persona was just a ruse? 😂


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## NekujaK (Aug 19, 2020)

I met Jerry Lewis once and witnessed him have a complete psychotic meltdown in which he individually singled out and openly berated every worker on his crew, in front of about 70 people. Real class act.

I know... not a composer - but 40 years later, that memory is still burned into my psyche.


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## SupremeFist (Aug 19, 2020)

I met Eddie Van Halen once and he was incredibly sweet and modest. Having seen a few other celebrities up close my impression is that people at the very top of their game are often humble; it's the less talented ones scrambling up the greasy pole after them who are likely to be dicks.


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## davetbass (Aug 20, 2020)

In those jobs that seem to depend so much on working with people, maybe the egomaniacs and divas get winnowed out a little, or become singers instead, I think that's where the usage of "diva" comes from. Critics and teachers however, almost have to be a bit elitist to justify their existence, if you take a course on jazz and the teacher is all like: "Kenny G, John Coltrane, it's really just a flip of the coin" You might be a bit disappointed.


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## mikeh-375 (Aug 20, 2020)

I've worked with a lot of good people and can only recall one person, a cellist, who was happy to dish out snide remarks during a recording session. He is a very good cellist with solo albums out, excellent in fact, but boy, I made a note to never use him again. As for composers, well I did meet Goldsmith who was charming but harried as he was in the middle of recording 'Medicine Man'. As to other composers, some where stand off-ish and others just got drunk. I was a proud member of the latter club.
I had more trouble with duplicitous producers and especially arrogant agency types.


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## GtrString (Aug 20, 2020)

Have you seen The asshole Theory?


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## mikeh-375 (Aug 20, 2020)

^^^lol.."asshole-ery"


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## Fredeke (Aug 22, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> How many people, who are incredibly successful, are elitist snobs?


There are some. Have you read some of Olivier Messiaen's interviews, for example? He was clearly a genius, and unaguably successful, but the extent to which he took himself seriously was downright comical! (How about Salvador Dali? ... Picasso?)

Me, on the other had... I have to confess I've been more proud than good sometimes.

Oh, and let's not forget the time when Karajan fancied himself a sound engineer...


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## SupremeFist (Aug 22, 2020)

Fredeke said:


> There are some. Have you read some of Olivier Messiaen's interviews, for example? He was clearly a genius, and unaguably successful, but the extent to which he took himself seriously was downright comical!


I think you get a free pass on that if you survived a Nazi prison camp.


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## Markrs (Aug 22, 2020)

Not a composer, but Miles Davis is famous for being an awful person with many many stories of him being awful to just about everyone in his life.


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## Fredeke (Aug 22, 2020)

Markrs said:


> Not a composer, but Miles Davis is famous for being an awful person with many many stories of him being awful to just about everyone in his life.


Right. Many actors and directors follow this trend too. (Jean-Luc Godard might be the finest example)


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## JohnG (Aug 22, 2020)

"You see I am holding a cigar? You see it is UNLIT? WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH YOU PEOPLE?"


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## Fredeke (Aug 22, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> I think you get a free pass on that if you survived a Nazi prison camp.


Ah. I didn't know that about him.


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## JohnG (Aug 22, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> How many people, who are incredibly successful, are elitist snobs? You know, nasty bitchy ivory-tower living elitists that think, sorry, KNOW they are better than everyone else?



IDK, Jono. I get that it's more fun if nobody is overly convinced of his own greatness, but then again, how else do we get architects whose work costs millions to realise, composers whose work costs hundreds of thousands to bring off, sculptors willing to start chiseling a beautiful lump of very expensive marble -- I mean you have to be confident. 

You have to know a lot, and inevitably, there comes a time when someone offers a suggestion that is pretty childish, unworkable, or just plain dumb-dumb. Sometimes that is annoying and sometimes we don't fully maintain mastery of our composure [throws phone across room].

Composers in the media music world occupy an odd position. We are not merely house painters, but neither are we The Guy -- The Artist. We are somewhere in between; what we do takes a lot of knowledge and some level of skill and experience; plus, typically there is nobody who knows 1/10 as much about music as we do. That said, nobody is looking for someone who thinks he's Leonardo da Vinci. [Besides, sometimes we _are_ just house painters...]

*Intelligent Discussion, Please*

Maybe I bug people, but I think it's incumbent on me to have an opinion when it comes to music -- what the music's role is, what the instrumentation should be, tempo, dynamics -- all of it. I always have a very detailed idea of what I'm trying to do with a scene -- excruciatingly detailed. I can write, and have written, three pages of what my intentions are for a single, relatively short cue. So absolutely 100% I have an opinion and an intention. 

Maybe some people with whom I work ask, "who does this guy think he is?" IDK

Maybe what you are getting at is that, whether it's a movie or a family or a job site, we are one of many; others on the project can improve our work if we listen very carefully to what they are saying. Nearly always, there is some kernel that can make our work better.

So, I have a very elaborate and detailed point of view and am not afraid to convey it and try to persuade others that I'm right, but I hope I'm not such a goofball as to think there's no other way to look at something.

*Expertise is Not Necessarily Elitism*

Historically, about every 80 years or so, attacking "the elite" and blaming them for all our problems surges in popularity. That's what fascists, communists, and populists of all stripes have always done, quite successfully.

But some of those "elite" people actually know stuff that we ordinary folk don't know. Anybody know how to treat my eye problems? Usually people called "doctors" know that. Fly the plane? Conduct the orchestra? Operate the mixing board?

So I guess maybe what you mean is that saying / thinking, "don't you know who I AM??" is pretty dick-ish, along with all the behaviour that often goes along with that.

Agree.


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## JohnG (Aug 22, 2020)

One other thought.

Most people who gravitate toward the "elite musical snob" thing don't end up in media music, or at least don't get anywhere.

In fact, I sometimes think there's an inverse relationship between education and success in media music, or at least an inverse relationship between _elite_ education (Oxford, Harvard, Stanford) and media music.

If you have those apparent advantages, you might think 'it's just a matter of time until these people work out how great I am.' 

By contrast, if you never had a chance to study and had to scrap, you realise from your experience of life that nobody is going to hand you anything, nobody deserves anything they haven't scrambled for, and that life is pretty much luck, working insanely hard, and taking risks by agreeing to take on challenges you know you're not prepared for.

If you're "well educated" you assume you must be prepared to conduct an orchestra. If you aren't educated, you probably already know that if you say, "no," it might be a long time / never before you get another shot.


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## Rory (Aug 22, 2020)

Nobody ever said that Leonard Bernstein lacked ego. Jamie Bernstein, in_ Famous Father Girl_, writes about her 28th birthday party. In front of the guests, Bernstein "gestured to a crease in his forehead and said to [Jamie,] ‘You see this line here that runs right down the middle? That’s the Line of Genius. You don’t have one.’ ”

Bernstein was a complex guy. The same man who could humiliate his daughter in public, and occasionally do the same to fellow musicians, also took aim at snobbery in classical music, both in his _Young People's Concerts _and at performances of the New York Philharmonic.


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## wst3 (Aug 22, 2020)

I've been fortunate to meet many famous and successful people in the music and audio sphere. Happy to name those that were humble and generous, but the list is long. Really long<G>!

I can recall only one artist who surprised me, and I am not naming names in case it was just a bad day, but I was really disappointed! This artist remains one of my artistic heroes, but if I never meet them again I'm good.

Maybe I've been lucky? My experience is that most successful folks realize that their success is due to others as well, and they are grateful.

The other possible explanation is that I avoid folks who think they are all that...


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## JohnG (Aug 22, 2020)

Gratitude and humility. If people only learned those in school, how great would that be?

Vanity sucks. Especially for those pitiable folk who just aren't that good-looking.


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## nolotrippen (Aug 22, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> Has anyone actually met anyone (film, TV, Video Game composers) that they we’re expecting to be really nice but in real life they turned out to be complete and total tyrannical monsters? Their public persona was just a ruse? 😂



Nope. They've all been very nice and patient: Jerry Goldsmith, Elmer Bernstein, John Barry, Lalo Schiffrin.


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## brek (Aug 22, 2020)

I partner with a well known artist. We periodically interact with established composers and other artists. As a "nobody" working with a household name, it's telling to see how I am treated - especially as it's easy to assume I'm just an "errand boy". True to Jono's thesis, the vast majority of them are kind and respectful. Only one has been a jerk.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Aug 22, 2020)

Haven't we all been acting like assholes at one point or another honestly?  
Not sure it's possible to _define_ a person as an asshole. Like, someone who's always acting as such.


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## b_elliott (Aug 22, 2020)

Check this short video for Hollywood snobbery back when Zappa recorded the original Lumpy Gravy. Emil describes the reactions. It appears Zappa was not tearing arseholes to get things done. But this is one example only. (Pardon me I am on a year long Zappa study frenzy so I see/hear things.)


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## b_elliott (Aug 22, 2020)

oops. The link I meant to include:


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## TomislavEP (Aug 24, 2020)

Interesting topic. I would start from the relativity of the word "successful", which most people associate with being "rich and famous". I firmly believe that there are many truly great artists, scientists, etc. who are neither "rich and famous" even though they've dedicated their entire being and life to art or science. Those the ones who never had the fortune of being adequately recognized for their passion and work by society. Such people are the kindest and the most humble and noble ones by their very nature.

The second category is those who are excellent in doing what they do but also fortunate enough to be recognized and sought for, and possibly - consequently - "rich and famous" as well. Many of those stay humble and rather "down to earth" despite their success, with the attitude of "I'm just doing what I do". There are a lot of exceptions from the rule, naturally.

Finally, there are "stars". The people who are not only "rich and famous" and decorated ones, but also omnipresent in the media and life in general. I think that those tend to be the most arrogant, self-righteous, and snobbish of them all, though not all of them, of course.

It is all relative...


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## ProfoundSilence (Aug 24, 2020)

JohnG said:


> "You see I am holding a cigar? You see it is UNLIT? WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH YOU PEOPLE?"


im sorry m'lourd - more coffee m'lourd? I shant neglect it again m'lourd.

Really though, you've got to have somewhat of an ego to be a composer... after all - why should 60 trained and excellent musicians waste their time playing YOUR music.


so we're a bunch of pretentious narcissists who aren't team players - selfish enough to control "OUR" vision, passive aggressively "out classing" each other on the internet. By default - other composers aren't likely to be future clients and are only more likely to be future competitors. 

I try to frequently remind people that my only expertise comes from spending a lot of money and trying to get software to work - and uhh.. I guess I know a good lot about music theory but I never write music so that's no good really.

I wouldn't even make a good assistant to a composer, I don't have the attention span to do the grunt work anways.

short version: don't listen to me unless your goal is entertainment, or opinions on what to blow your money on(because I've blown a lot of money for the sake of science)

slowly passing that crown(and the debt that goes with it) to @jononotbono


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## stixman (Aug 24, 2020)

Buddy Rich ruled with a rod of iron lol


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## GtrString (Aug 24, 2020)

Assholes comes in all colors and sizes, and if they are too tight, its very hard to get through!


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## Ashermusic (Aug 24, 2020)

JohnG said:


> I
> *Expertise is Not Necessarily Elitism*.



Indeed. In this anti-intellectual era where the prevailing cultural ethos has decided that knowledge is not necessarily power, more people need to be willing to say this.

Sure, pure talent can always rise to the top, but given equal talent, the more you know, the better you will be.


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## Daryl (Aug 24, 2020)

There is also a problem with perception. Having spent 4 years learning to conduct (yes proper lessons, an'all) and 30 years of professional conducting under my belt, it is highly irritating when someone, who has next to no experience, tries to tell me how to do the job. No matter how tactful I try to be, they keep pushing with their "opinions", and eventually I just cut them down to size. Is that me being an arsehole? Elitist? Or just running out of patience? I don't know.


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## Ashermusic (Aug 24, 2020)

Daryl said:


> There is also a problem with perception. Having spent 4 years learning to conduct (yes proper lessons, an'all) and 30 years of professional conducting under my belt, it is highly irritating when someone, who has next to no experience, tries to tell me how to do the job. No matter how tactful I try to be, they keep pushing with their "opinions", and eventually I just cut them down to size. Is that me being an arsehole? Elitist? Or just running out of patience? I don't know.



No, Daryl, it makes you a professional.


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## JohnG (Aug 24, 2020)

Daryl said:


> Is that me being an arsehole? Elitist? Or just running out of patience? I don't know.



Yes. You should become a prison guard instead.


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## chillbot (Aug 24, 2020)

Daryl said:


> Is that me being an arsehole? Elitist? Or just running out of patience? I don't know.


So much of this depends on the context, the delivery, the personality. As @Mike Greene likes to say (paraphrasing) "read the damn room you twat!" Two different people could react in the same way and say the same words and one would come off as an elitist prick and the other as warm and jovial. What do they call it, tact? I dunno I never had much. Also probably in part why we fight so much on the internet, no context/delivery/inflection.


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## Daryl (Aug 24, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Yes. You should become a prison guard instead.


If I can keep an orchestra under control. a few prisoners is no problem...!


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## mikeh-375 (Aug 24, 2020)

Daryl said:


> If I can keep an orchestra under control. a few prisoners is no problem...!


depending on the circumstances, half the brass section might be in prison at any given time....


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## wst3 (Aug 24, 2020)

Circumstances do matter. I've had experiences where someone famous struck me as obnoxious (at best) only to realize later that perhaps I contributed somewhat to that outcome.

Daryl's point is important! Don't be a pest and you'll probably be treated well.

And in fairness to the alleged guilty - in a couple of cases the person who treated me in a way I did not enjoy later made up for it, usually in spades, and also let me know where I had stepped over the line. A lesson if you will, and one for which I was grateful.

Cool thread - and Daryl, please don't give up music for the life of a prison guard, we'd miss you here<G>!


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## MA-Simon (Aug 24, 2020)

GtrString said:


> ssholes comes in all colors and sizes, and if they are too tight, its very hard to get through!


But at the end of the day, you want them to be tight. That is how you know you are succesfull.


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## JohnG (Aug 24, 2020)

wst3 said:


> and Daryl, please don't give up music for the life of a prison guard, we'd miss you here<G>!



Hold on now! 

You don't want to disregard the benefits of being a prison guard too hastily!


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## dzilizzi (Aug 24, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Hold on now!
> 
> You don't want to disregard the benefits of being a prison guard too hastily!


This is true. The pay is decent. And if you survive until retirement, they usually pay a pension. Plus the people you work with are so nice!


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## JJP (Aug 24, 2020)

Daryl said:


> No matter how tactful I try to be, they keep pushing with their "opinions", and eventually I just cut them down to size. Is that me being an arsehole? Elitist? Or just running out of patience? I don't know.



This reminds me of a funny story. There is a guy running around with a lot of money, convinced of his greatness, who is writing his own musical and running through many of the good people in the biz. (I had the distinct pleasure of working on this project for a brief period of time.)

At one point he hired a very well-known music director to orchestrate and conduct a recording for the project. During the recording, in front of the orchestra, this guy informed the conductor of his disappointment that the conductor wasn't using more Italian when addressing the orchestra.  

The conductor received the comment calmly. He turned to the orchestra and said, "Once more, con formaggio."

The guy was not impressed.


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## Fredeke (Aug 25, 2020)

Daryl said:


> There is also a problem with perception. Having spent 4 years learning to conduct (yes proper lessons, an'all) and 30 years of professional conducting under my belt, it is highly irritating when someone, who has next to no experience, tries to tell me how to do the job. No matter how tactful I try to be, they keep pushing with their "opinions", and eventually I just cut them down to size. Is that me being an arsehole? Elitist? Or just running out of patience? I don't know.


Every time I manage to deal with that with tact, I experience it as a small victory.
It is not easy, and sometimes I make an ass of myself when clearly it's the other party who deserved the label.
(But also sometimes it's just me, because the other was right after all - it's not always easy to see in the heat of the moment)

Here's an anecdote (otherwise this post would be too short) :

I was a boom operator on a short movie. We were all fresh out of school and learning the business. We were shooting in a very small room, and finding where to hold the mike was not easy. At some point I asked for a few seconds to find the exact height threshold. As I was taking in my own marks, the assistant director was saying "too low... too high... a little too low... ahh..." - I felt myself boiling inside and just managed to mutter "please man" - to which he answered "I'm just helping", and then I burst into laughter and answered in front of everyone "no actually you're not helping". He shut up, we went along fine for the rest of the production, and the crew praised my professionalism.

But some other times, I wasn't that well inspired :-/


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