# Jerry Goldmsith & John Williams Action Music Tips



## ed buller (Nov 5, 2018)

Both used Pitch sets a lot in the seventies to generate very tense and edgy drama. 

JW:



JG:




as used by Bartok




Lesson:



Best Ed


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## DANIELE (Jan 10, 2019)

I don't undersand well what Pitch Set is? Could someone explain it to me?


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## Murphy (Jan 10, 2019)

DANIELE said:


> I don't undersand well what Pitch Set is? Could someone explain it to me?


I can’t directly explain but the following document might be of use:
https://www.fransabsil.nl/archpdf/tonesets.pdf


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 10, 2019)

Murphy said:


> I can’t directly explain but the following document might be of use:
> https://www.fransabsil.nl/archpdf/tonesets.pdf



If I were visiting from Mars and someone told me that Stravinsky and Bartok used an absurd system like that, I'd tell them they were nuts and go on to the next planet.


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## ed buller (Jan 10, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> If I were visiting from Mars and someone told me that Stravinsky and Bartok used an absurd system like that, I'd tell them they were nuts and go on to the next planet.


you doubt it ?

best

e


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 10, 2019)

ed buller said:


> you doubt it ?
> 
> best
> 
> e



Oh, I'm an Earthling through and through. I don't doubt it for one minute.


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## ed buller (Jan 11, 2019)

DANIELE said:


> I don't undersand well what Pitch Set is? Could someone explain it to me?



A pitch set is just a fancy name for a small collection of pitches. These are expressed by no's representing all the pitches in an octave so 1 to 11 .They are expressed that way as it's the intervals that are important NOT the actual pitches. So 0,1,3, is a popular pitch set. JW uses this a lot. If we make 0=middle C then 1 would be C# and 3 would be D#. Pitch sets can be transposed and we STILL use the same numbers !....so it's just the intervals that are important.


We can play a pitch set any way we want. It's NOT a tone row, It is JUST a reservoir of pitches for use. We can use two or more simultaneously . In the Bartok example above after the drums (20:11) you'll hear the pitch set played Downwards then Upwards , rotating around 0. The real pitches are A,G#,F,G#...then A,Bb,C#Bb...we express this as a pitch set [0,1,4] You will here it come in again transposed as a harmony...then again and again....In fact this section is pretty much ALL 0,1,4

best ed


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 11, 2019)

ed buller said:


> So 0,1,3, is a popular pitch set.



So is the continuation of the scale that usually implies - half step up, whole, half, whole... It's a diminished half boson emergent schwarzchild radius scale.


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## ed buller (Jan 11, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> So is the continuation of the scale that usually implies - half step up, whole, half, whole... It's a diminished half boson emergent schwarzchild radius scale.


with dihedral baffling to the 9nth power !

best

ed


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## DANIELE (Jan 13, 2019)

ed buller said:


> A pitch set is just a fancy name for a small collection of pitches. These are expressed by no's representing all the pitches in an octave so 1 to 11 .They are expressed that way as it's the intervals that are important NOT the actual pitches. So 0,1,3, is a popular pitch set. JW uses this a lot. If we make 0=middle C then 1 would be C# and 3 would be D#. Pitch sets can be transposed and we STILL use the same numbers !....so it's just the intervals that are important.
> 
> 
> We can play a pitch set any way we want. It's NOT a tone row, It is JUST a reservoir of pitches for use. We can use two or more simultaneously . In the Bartok example above after the drums (20:11) you'll hear the pitch set played Downwards then Upwards , rotating around 0. The real pitches are A,G#,F,G#...then A,Bb,C#Bb...we express this as a pitch set [0,1,4] You will here it come in again transposed as a harmony...then again and again....In fact this section is pretty much ALL 0,1,4
> ...



Thank you for the explanation, I think I understood this, I still don't understand well the movement for using this technique.

I should choose a tonic and then "rotate" around it, am I right? So there's should be always the tonic in the pitch set or should I move diatonically or maybe chromatically?


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## ed buller (Jan 13, 2019)

DANIELE said:


> Thank you for the explanation, I think I understood this, I still don't understand well the movement for using this technique.
> 
> I should choose a tonic and then "rotate" around it, am I right? So there's should be always the tonic in the pitch set or should I move diatonically or maybe chromatically?



If by "Tonic" you mean the lowest not of the set then use. You have to always find what's called the prime form of a set to make sure you have the lowest note. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_theory_(music)

good explanation






in this video The composer first creates his pitch sets. You can see that the second one contains notes from the first. The first is also the first tetrachord of an Octatonic scale ! 

So with this material he finds all sorts of things . First look for Triads as they help establish harmony .
He gets three. Then he also looks for harmonic flavor. Again it's this restricted Harmony that is such an important part of the sound. 

That's how you create such a strong mood. 


best

ed


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## JohnG (Jan 13, 2019)

You can even think of modes as pitch sets, since they sometimes create major or minor chords in unexpected places.

I use them all the time -- octatonic, phrygian -- whatever. They help create some element of the unexpected while still feeling cohesive.




ed buller said:


> So with this material he finds all sorts of things



...including some of the most hideous samples I've heard in some time.

Still fun, theoretically, but yikes!


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## jbuhler (Jan 13, 2019)

ed buller said:


> If by "Tonic" you mean the lowest not of the set then use. You have to always find what's called the prime form of a set to make sure you have the lowest note.


The idea is one of identity conditions. What you want to do is be able to say that these two collections of pitches are identical, or one is a subset of the other, or that they share some measure of resemblance. But you also want to abstract this relation from any set of pitches, much as all major chords resemble each (regardless of their root or inversion) and all minor chords resemble each other, etc. (except major and minor are ironically the same pc-set [0,3,7]). 

The identity of the PC-set for two motives or chords tells us that they are equivalent or inversionally equivalent. Trichords are a convenient way of taking apart non-tonal music, but you have to be careful because there are only 12 unique ones, so using them as the primary unit of analysis tends to make it seem like all music is highly unified. But the relaxed identity conditions, which are indifferent to pitch order and presume octave equivalence, is really responsible for this impression of unity. I find it useful but limited as an analytical tool, since it tends to make identities out of things that don't seem that related on the one hand but enforce differences that often seem less than salient.


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## JohnG (Jan 13, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> I find it useful but limited as an analytical tool, since it tends to make identities out of things that don't seem that related on the one hand but enforce differences that often seem less than salient.



I agree. I prefer Hanson's _pmnsdt_ analysis. Even though it has some of the same issues, chords with the same characteristics sound more coherent to me. 

Warning: there is a lot of pretentious rubbish about this (and other) "modern" theories. If you ignore the pedantic stuff, it's easy to use. 

How? 

suppose you just created a passage of four or eight bars that you love but doesn't have traditional chord progressions with 5th relations or triads or something. How do you write "more of that but different?" Hanson's chord analysis can help -- quickly and with relatively limited pain and suffering.


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## tonaliszt (Jan 13, 2019)

My Favorite film cue using pitch sets. A-Bb-E-F. The whole opening is just those notes - amazing!


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## The Darris (Jan 13, 2019)

Look, I'm that guy who's totally into the most tonal cheesy music possible as well as the most atonally pretentious stuff out there. The biggest thing I learned in my formal music education was that tone sets or 12-tone 'rows' (etc) basically act no differently than writing in specific modes or keys. You are basically creating a scale which acts as your key and how you move within that is very similar to any other piece of music. You develop a functioning rhythm and pattern within those notes and go from there. How you modulate or move around within that frame work is limitless, much like working in a regular key-signature. You can simply choose to stay in that key or borrow chords from other keys and float around the tonic, etc. It's honestly no different. The biggest thing I can hear in these examples are that despite the lack of pitches the composers are using, they all keep a basic form of rhythmic/melodic structure that gives the listener something to grab onto and stay connected to the music's flow. It's basically just repetition and modulation that keeps it interesting. They do all of that as well as supporting the film's sequence it's attached to. 

It's fun to analyze pieces like these as well as the more traditional early 20th Century music and those that developed out of the 2nd Viennese School but I find it very difficult to effectively follow those "rules" when writing to picture. I let my education influence me but I try not to get caught up in trying to follow a tradition. That's just me though. 

Cheers,

Chris


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## Craig Duke (Jan 13, 2019)

The following description is from another video by Frans Absil starting here:  Worth a listen.






I use his Pitch Class Set tool to generate the sets for the first two measures above. Tool: https://www.fransabsil.nl/htm/toneset.htm If you want to play with pitch class sets, there's no reason, at first, to learn how to make the transformations by hand/brain (addition and subtraction, a few other conversions, based on a few simple rules -- still a PITA).

The tools shows two sets in one view. It allows you to alter each set using transposition (you know), inversion (mirrored across an axis of the root "0"), and complement (a set of all the pitches the set it compliments doesn't have -- probably a better way to say that). Between the two pitch circles, the tool also shows, in another circle, the common tones between the sets.

1. Choose Pitch Class Set 6-33 in the tool (per the example). 6 is the number of pitches in the set. 33 is a number Alan Forte used to describe this particular set in his book. I still have my copy from 19XX, a long time ago.

2. The tool shows 6-33 including intervals 1 4 3 2 4 1, where the left to tight position indicates the interval count starting with m2, M2, m3, ... tri-tone. (see tool picture). The set contains: 1 m2, 4 M2, 3 m3 etc. Compositionally, this is a starting point for choice. 

3. Measure 1: In the score, he shows the set as "I5" which means invert the original set and transpose it up 5 half steps. You can set PC Set 1 in the tool to I-5 of 6-33 using the transpose up/down buttons and inversion button. Note how the display shows the root is now at F and State as "I" for inversion. The pitch circle shows the pitches for I-5.

4. The pitch content of measure two is "O6." "O" meaning the original set and "6" meaning transposed up 6 half steps. So, for PC Set 2 in the tool, hit up transpose button 6 times.

5 Again, the pitch wheel in the middle shows common tones between the two.

6. The remaining measures of his example alternate between transposed inversions and transposed originals. I believe he repeats each group three times in the audio with different orchestrations for each. Other versions in the video play with different voice leading approaches on the same group of sets. 

Anyway, its a useful tool.


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## ed buller (Jan 13, 2019)

tonaliszt said:


> My Favorite film cue using pitch sets. A-Bb-E-F. The whole opening is just those notes - amazing!





Oh The Magic of Fred Steiner !.....Wonderful composer. This episodes music ended up all over Star Trek with good reason. Fabulous music

best

e


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## Leandro Gardini (Jan 14, 2019)

Maybe is it completely escaping from my mind but I have spent a considerable amount of time analysing and applying John Williams action cue techniques and I never identified any sort of pitch class in his music.
If someone have noticed this technique in any part of his music please point it to me but simply stating that he uses such technique just because of some kind of similarities in dissonance makes no sense to me.


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## mikeh-375 (Jan 14, 2019)

I can't answer definitively Leo, but judging by works like JW's cello concerto, he has a solid grip on his language as one would expect from a master and I'm betting that includes pitch class sets if he felt the need. One wonders about his harmonic procedures for something like Close Encounters.


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## ed buller (Jan 14, 2019)

leogardini said:


> Maybe is it completely escaping from my mind but I have spent a considerable amount of time analysing and applying John Williams action cue techniques and I never identified any sort of pitch class in his music.
> If someone have noticed this technique in any part of his music please point it to me but simply stating that he uses such technique just because of some kind of similarities in dissonance makes no sense to me.



there are so many. He uses them as little cells to exploit all over the place. Mostly three pitches but sometimes four. He uses them like little reservoirs to tap into for consistent intervalic sonorities, though he does transpose them all the time. Perhaps a useful place to start would be this forum. There are a lot of very knowledgeable JW fans. The most obvious JW pitch set scores are the earlier dissonant ones. His fav [ 0,1,3,] can be heard throughout . The Poseiden Adventure , Towering inferno, Earthquake, The Eiger Sanction , Jaws......also more recently in Minority Report. It's a very common "go to" for his textural stuff . As to ostinatos in Action cues that tends to more likely be Hungarian minor and Ukraian Dorian modes .

Both JW and Jerry Goldsmith recieved tuition From Ernst Krenek and perhaps it's from Him that they both learned Pitch set use. Bot by the sixties any lover of Bartokian Harmony ( and they both adored him ) would be plundering such a technique. 



http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/search/&q=" Pitch Sets"&search_and_or=or&sortby=relevancy


Best Ed


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## Leandro Gardini (Jan 14, 2019)

ed buller said:


> there are so many. He uses them as little cells to exploit all over the place. Mostly three pitches but sometimes four. He uses them like little reservoirs to tap into for consistent intervalic sonorities, though he does transpose them all the time. Perhaps a useful place to start would be this forum. There are a lot of very knowledgeable JW fans. The most obvious JW pitch set scores are the earlier dissonant ones. His fav [ 0,1,3,] can be heard throughout . The Poseiden Adventure , Towering inferno, Earthquake, The Eiger Sanction , Jaws......also more recently in Minority Report. It's a very common "go to" for his textural stuff . As to ostinatos in Action cues that tends to more likely be Hungarian minor and Ukraian Dorian modes .
> 
> Both JW and Jerry Goldsmith recieved tuition From Ernst Krenek and perhaps it's from Him that they both learned Pitch set use. Bot by the sixties any lover of Bartokian Harmony ( and they both adored him ) would be plundering such a technique.
> 
> ...


There are many ways we can analyze the same thing but talking specifically about the appearance of 0,1,3 interval relation I don't think Williams thinks in pitch class.
We may conjecture for days about how someone else think music and not come close to a conclusion or anything practical because in the end the only one who really know about how John Williams think music is John Williams.
Though, more than conjectures and words, what most matter is applied results.
I have written a short article about the John Williams harmonic language.

https://www.leandrogardini.com/single-post/2017/02/04/The-John-Williams-Harmonic-Language

This is just a fragment of my studies and, according to my observations and practices, I must say that John Williams does not use pitch class in his compositions, at least not in the sense of the traditional geometrical way that all these tutorials and books teach.


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## ed buller (Jan 14, 2019)

ed


leogardini said:


> There are many ways we can analyze the same thing but talking specifically about the appearance of 0,1,3 interval relation I don't think Williams thinks in pitch class.
> We may conjecture for days about how someone else think music and not come close to a conclusion or anything practical because in the end the only one who really know about how John Williams think music is John Williams.
> Though, more than conjectures and words, what most matter is applied results.
> I have written a short article about the John Williams harmonic language.
> ...




Hi. as you say it's impossible without the help of the composer to clearly establish exactly what was in his mind when he constructed a piece. However I have to disagree . I think the evidence that JW uses pitch sets as a compositional tool is overwhelming and bearing in mind who taught him , Highly likely

best


ed


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## jamwerks (Jan 14, 2019)

Very interesting subject here!

Yes 0,1,3 could just be modal (there are two or three of those cells in most modes), or it could be used outside or as a complement to his normal modal writing.

Great harmonicists like JW, JG (and Alexandre Desplat) do a combo of both I think.

For anyone interested in pitch class set theory (and we all should know this stuff imo), here is one of the definitive books on the subject.


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## ed buller (Jan 14, 2019)

jamwerks said:


> For anyone interested in pitch class set theory (and we all should know this stuff imo), here is one of the definitive books on the subject.



The Bible

best

e


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## ScoreFace (Jan 14, 2019)

Wow, never heard of that! I'm afraid that diving into this topic will open a door that will take all my free time


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## Leandro Gardini (Jan 14, 2019)

ed buller said:


> ed
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am not sure what is the overwhelming evidences you are referring to. I've been studying his compositions for more than 6 year and never found anything that could relate to pitch class.
The simple fact that John avoids geometric harmonies put all these conjecture about pitch class out of question.
Or maybe we are having different considerations of pitch class variation?!

I have intensively studied EIS for more than 3 years and this is one of the best composition course I've ever seen, however I hardly ever use EIS techniques today. Likewise, taking into consideration with whom John Williams studied does not explain or prove anything about his current approach to composition.
It is the same nonsense thing that I've heard multiple times "If you want to understand John Williams study the masters that he studied".
Nothing can be more confusing than trying to understand someone by studying someone else.
I understand the approach to study the influences but there is few more ineffective ways than this.

I respect every effort to explain the work of the composer in question but none of the explanations out there brought me even close to understand his scores. That is why, few year ago, I decided to to make my own researches on William's scores and only stop until I find out something about. It took me a long time to understand the first patterns but as I progressed the other ones seemed to come up easier and easier.

Anyway, I am not trying to convince you of anything. If you prefer to believe in what you believe that is more than fine for me. I just wanted to make sure we are on the same page regarding the analysis.
My bad ego for some time made feel the urge to prove you that I know what I am talking about but I don't think this is the case.


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## ed buller (Jan 14, 2019)

well I'll just have to wait for your book and see where you are coming from because the people I trust who helped me study John Williams showed me how the pitch set's exist and get used. ( read the link I posted ) . As to dismissing who he studied with i find that a little silly !. But each to his own. When is your book coming out ?

best


ed


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## jamwerks (Jan 14, 2019)

I've studied a few JW scores, looking closely at his harmonic vocabulary. To generalize, I find 5% pitch sets, and 95% modes. Sometimes pedal points under pitch class set chords or figures (that don't relate to modes), somtimes other techniques. Would be a long answer...


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## ed buller (Jan 14, 2019)

jamwerks said:


> I've studied a few JW scores, looking closely at his harmonic vocabulary. To generalize, I find 5% pitch sets, and 95% modes. Sometimes pedal points under pitch class set chords or figures (that don't relate to modes), somtimes other techniques. Would be a long answer...



that's interesting. I see a lot of Modes too. Especially of Hungarian Minor and Ukrainian Dorian. He seems to get a lot of triadadic material from these.

best


ed


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## jamwerks (Jan 14, 2019)

The one outstanding JW mode to my ears is harmonic-major (C D E F G A-flat B C) and the different modes of that master mode. Next week I'll post some cheat sheets of all the possible 7 note modes.

JW isn't the first to use it, but he's the first to so blatantly use it. Most of JW's favorites use that. Maybe I'll post some things later.

The famous "The Sea" by Debussy, first mov. starts with a pentatonic passage, then bars 6-12 how do you explain that? It's….. yes you guessed it. Harmonic-major (well the jux-opposition of two actually).

The second most used mode by JW is probably the octatonic (dimished) scale. "The Forest Battle" is really a textbook exercise in that scale. There's a lot of octatonic in "The Rite of Spring" and also a lot of pitch class set stuff.

The first dabbles at pitch class set music that I know of is Scriabin


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## ed buller (Jan 14, 2019)

jamwerks said:


> There's a lot of octatonic in "The Rite of Spring"



Loads...although there is some debate about this but I'm sold. 

essential reading:



best

ed


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## jamwerks (Jan 14, 2019)

Just for fun, from "The Rite of Spring", the famous repeated chords in the 8 horns at rehersal 13.
That's Lydian #2 harmony (6th degree of the harmonic minor scale).


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## ed buller (Jan 14, 2019)

such a scamp !!


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## TimCox (Jan 14, 2019)

I think the simplest way to imitate John Williams action music is to use an octatonic scale with all major chords (and some 9s for jazzy flavor). Make sure it sounds like it's spur of the moment too (which he's a master of).


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## Leandro Gardini (Jan 15, 2019)

ed buller said:


> well I'll just have to wait for your book and see where you are coming from because the people I trust who helped me study John Williams showed me how the pitch set's exist and get used. ( read the link I posted ) . As to dismissing who he studied with i find that a little silly !. But each to his own. When is your book coming out ?
> 
> best
> 
> ...


The book is not going to be released anymore but instead I will prepare an online course which I don't have an estimate of the release date.


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## mikeh-375 (Jan 15, 2019)

jamwerks said:


> Just for fun, from "The Rite of Spring", the famous repeated chords in the 8 horns at rehersal 13.
> That's Lydian #2 harmony (6th degree of the harmonic minor scale).



I always think of that chord as simply bitonal. Just goes to show how different interpreting theory can be.


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## mikeh-375 (Jan 15, 2019)

ed buller said:


> there are so many. He uses them as little cells to exploit all over the place. Mostly three pitches but sometimes four. He uses them like little reservoirs to tap into for consistent intervalic sonorities, though he does transpose them all the time. Perhaps a useful place to start would be this forum. There are a lot of very knowledgeable JW fans. The most obvious JW pitch set scores are the earlier dissonant ones. His fav [ 0,1,3,] can be heard throughout . The Poseiden Adventure , Towering inferno, Earthquake, The Eiger Sanction , Jaws......also more recently in Minority Report. It's a very common "go to" for his textural stuff . As to ostinatos in Action cues that tends to more likely be Hungarian minor and Ukraian Dorian modes .
> 
> Both JW and Jerry Goldsmith recieved tuition From Ernst Krenek and perhaps it's from Him that they both learned Pitch set use. Bot by the sixties any lover of Bartokian Harmony ( and they both adored him ) would be plundering such a technique.
> 
> ...



Ed, do you think Williams is just using motivic development rather than what might be construed as a serial/atonal formalism? Just asking as I haven't studied him to such an extent. I can believe he might use pitch classes in his concert music to develop material, but am not sure if this discussion relates to that or film (or both). I see his film work as good old honest motivic development, but perhaps pitch class is being defined in the same way.


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 15, 2019)

leogardini said:


> The book is not going to be released anymore but instead I will prepare an online course which I don't have an estimate of the release date.



Well, that makes it more convenient, thank you.

I have an action movie music tip for @Spitfire Team: Composer's Toolkits, one for each composer. Make Jerry first (for me, as he's my very favorite film composer who isn't Bernard Herrmann).

It's true, in the case of Jerry we'd be working with samples inspired nearly as much by JG's orchestrators, Alexander Courage and Arthur Morton. But still, those men had a part in such Monolithic epics as Wind and the Lion, Boys From Brazil, Capricorn One, Total Recall (though I believe JG took most of the orchestration tasks on himself later in his career).

I'm not as much in Williams, but I'd pay for a CT featuring his name in a heartbeat...I'm sure plenty here would fork over for *both*, really.

JG was the MAN as far as syncopated action music (often with experimental edges), while JW was more ornate: bigger orchestras, major keys.


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## ed buller (Jan 15, 2019)

mikeh-375 said:


> Ed, do you think Williams is just using motivic development rather than what might be construed as a serial/atonal formalism? Just asking as I haven't studied him to such an extent. I can believe he might use pitch classes in his concert music to develop material, but am not sure if this discussion relates to that or film (or both). I see his film work as good old honest motivic development, but perhaps pitch class is being defined in the same way.


it's always contextual . If it is part of a line almost certainly , but as part of his vertical sororities i'd say pitch set but who knows !

best

ed


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