# What's Up with Auddict's Master Brass?



## Cory Pelizzari (May 7, 2018)

UPDATE - I was cross-checking some of the affected waves with Thorsten Meyer of Strong Mocha, and he sent myself and Dorian from Auddict an example of him fixing one of these waves with RX6 within minutes - so apparently this problem was easily fixable this whole time, but someone from Auddict has been neglecting to address it.

Before and after editing:


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## rottoy (May 7, 2018)

Damn, that is a pretty disappointing trail of events from a company that I actually like.


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## Cory Pelizzari (May 7, 2018)

rottoy said:


> Damn, that is a pretty disappointing trail of events from a company that I actually like.


I know, right. I really enjoy their Drums of the Deep libraries, and I even like Hexeract.


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## lpuser (May 7, 2018)

How did you come to these conclusions? Did you crosscheck on another system? No trying to defend anyone, but there are walkthrough videos etc. of which none do show any clicks etc. You can hear them playing longer notes without any artefacts.



You are aware that clicks etc. can be caused by driver conflicts and disk drives not being able to stream a certain amount of of samples in time?


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## fretti (May 7, 2018)

Actually kept an eye on it as it's on sale for ~170€...
Thanks for saving me there


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## Jerry Growl (May 7, 2018)

Those pops are really unnerving. But you can only point the finger when the problem turns up to every user on different platforms.

I had a similar experience with 8Dio's wonderful Upright Piano. I downloaded and installed the normal way and found out pops at a specific mic position happening 100% predictable at some transitions of notes. I felt really upset. I was planning to get things straight. I just held myself from sending a furious mail, because you never know.. 

So I wrote a polite mail sending a soundcloud link with the problem clearly stated, and I was replied quickly, politely and friendly. However they weren't able to reproduce my pops at their end of the line on their system.

So after a while I received the suggestion to re-install the librabry. And that was it. Pops gone. Everybody happy. Bad installation. That just happens. Is it my disk reading/writing errors? Copy errors? Unzip errors? I have no idea.


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## Cory Pelizzari (May 7, 2018)

lpuser said:


> How did you come to these conclusions? Did you crosscheck on another system? No trying to defend anyone, but there are walkthrough videos etc. of which none do show any clicks etc. You can hear them playing longer notes without any artefacts.
> 
> 
> 
> You are aware that clicks etc. can be caused by driver conflicts and disk drives not being able to stream a certain amount of of samples in time?



I don't want to sound rude, but if you had actually paid attention to my video you would have seen that I pulled up some wave file examples - there's no need to be contrarian just because you weren't convinced on your first viewing. I can understand your confusion if you've seen videos without these issues, but remember that the issues are present in certain, not all, notes - and if the videos are from the provider then they would be careful not to show any of these issues.


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## Cory Pelizzari (May 7, 2018)

Jerry Growl said:


> Those pops are really unnerving. But you can only point the finger when the problem turns up to every user on different platforms.
> 
> I had a similar experience with 8Dio's wonderful Upright Piano. I downloaded and installed the normal way and found out pops at a specific mic position happening 100% predictable at some transitions of notes. I felt really upset. I was planning to get things straight. I just held myself from sending a furious mail, because you never know..
> 
> ...


As I mentioned in the video, I have re-downloaded and re-installed the library and contacted support for a year. Their silence, and the fact that there is a dedicated thread on this site regarding the issue, is evidence that it is a general problem.


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## Jerry Growl (May 7, 2018)

Cory Pelizzari said:


> As I mentioned in the video, I have re-downloaded and re-installed the library and contacted support for a year. Their silence, and the fact that there is a dedicated thread on this site regarding the issue, is evidence that it is a general problem.


Wow. That's just not professional from their side then. You can't let such an error pass.

And if this happens to everyone at the exact same spots, it just seriously needs to be fixed. 

In fact that would make it a miracle they didn't detect these drops while programming. 

So hopefully for them it's still a read/write issue. What samplerate/bitrate do you work in? Could you access the individual sample and check out if it's the actual recording of the sample that has the drop in it? Or if it's due to sloppy programming that these drops occur?


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## Cory Pelizzari (May 7, 2018)

Jerry Growl said:


> Wow. That's just not professional from their side then. You can't let such an error pass.
> 
> And if this happens to everyone at the exact same spots, it just seriously needs to be fixed.
> 
> ...


Yeah, if you watch the video you'll see I pull up some waves that have pops in them.


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## rottoy (May 7, 2018)

I wonder if it's a dirty signal path from the recording sessions themselves, or an encoding error producing faulty wave files. 
Either way, this would be the epitome of a production nightmare as a fellow sample library developer.


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## aaronventure (May 7, 2018)

Yikes. I mean, even if they decided that they're going out with these samples, you can do at least a 90% fix on these pops with audio reparation software or even cut them with simple editing procedures (it should be painless for sustained notes).


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## Jerry Growl (May 7, 2018)

Cory Pelizzari said:


> Yeah, if you watch the video you'll see I pull up some waves that have pops in them.


Yes well the video didn't show where you pulled them from. Glad we cleared out downmixing isn't the same.

To get the actual sample you would need to be searching through TPT2sus347.wav or whatever they named the culprit among the actual sample data


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## robgb (May 7, 2018)

lpuser said:


> How did you come to these conclusions? Did you crosscheck on another system? No trying to defend anyone, but there are walkthrough videos etc. of which none do show any clicks etc. You can hear them playing longer notes without any artefacts.
> 
> 
> 
> You are aware that clicks etc. can be caused by driver conflicts and disk drives not being able to stream a certain amount of of samples in time?



I have the same issues.


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## Cory Pelizzari (May 7, 2018)

rottoy said:


> I wonder if it's a dirty signal path from the recording sessions themselves, or an encoding error producing faulty wave files.
> Either way, this would be the epitome of a production nightmare as a fellow sample library developer.


That's the thing, and that's why I believe they've been quiet. Obviously RX hasn't worked and they're scratching their heads arguing if there's enough warrant to re-record a bunch of samples. But what they should do regardless, is openly admit to it rather than deny it, and if the problem can't be fixed or the library can't be re-recorded, they need to pull the library from their site, because a faulty product is a faulty product. That's where the possible PR nightmare could come in. The ball's in their court.


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## Cory Pelizzari (May 7, 2018)

Jerry Growl said:


> Yes well the video didn't show where you pulled them from. Glad we cleared out downmixing isn't the same.
> 
> To get the actual sample you would need to be searching through TPT2sus347.wav or whatever they named the culprit among the actual sample data


Watch the video in 1080p and you can actually see the names of the files. I pulled them straight from the samples folder.


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## Jerry Growl (May 7, 2018)

Audio drops? In a modern production? That's a go to jail card.


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## leon chevalier (May 7, 2018)

I've contacted them (in a very polite way) many times for another issue, and they never replied to my emails...


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## Cory Pelizzari (May 7, 2018)

leon chevalier said:


> I've contacted them (in a very polite way) many times for another issue, and they never replied to my emails...


Unfortunately this kind of response to customers is something certain developers believe is just part of the business - the focus is put on marketing and advertising, GUI artwork and coming up with the next big money-maker, and any problems customers have are often put on the "remember to do" list and are forgotten. Some developers don't seem to understand that keeping their buyers satisfied yields long term benefits. That's why Spectrasonics is still on top of their game, while East West have resorted to the Composer Cloud to bring in new buyers and have waned in popularity and quality over the years. It's not like they do it on purpose - they just don't seem to understand the way things work outside their dreams and aspirations.


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## lpuser (May 7, 2018)

Cory Pelizzari said:


> I don't want to sound rude, but if you had actually paid attention to my video you would have seen that I pulled up some wave file examples - there's no need to be contrarian just because you weren't convinced on your first viewing.



Well, you have neither shown where the audio files came from nor did you highlight what you did to crosscheck your assumptions prior to making that video, like e.g. checking on another system, testing in another sample editor, increasing buffer size, checking Kontakt settings etc.?

I am not saying you don´t have a point, but it is a bold statement to suggest that independent, well-known reviewers deliberately trick potential customers into buying a faulty product by not playing certain notes.


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## Quasar (May 7, 2018)

I have Master Brass, opened two Octohorn instances - there is both an original and a v1.1, I don't remember the details surrounding this - tried the legato and no legato, played all the notes chromatically both slow and fast, and I'm not able to reproduce anything like the popping/clicking artifacts shown in the video, which I agree are very bad.

I haven't gone as far as opening individual .wavs and trying those in isolation, but I can if I get some time over the next day or so.


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## robgb (May 7, 2018)

Cory Pelizzari said:


> That's the thing, and that's why I believe they've been quiet. Obviously RX hasn't worked and they're scratching their heads arguing


I've edited a couple of the wav files and was able to get rid of the clicking. So I'm not sure why they couldn't also.


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## robgb (May 7, 2018)

Quasar said:


> I have Master Brass, opened two Octohorn instances - there is both an original and a v1.1, I don't remember the details surrounding this - tried the legato and no legato, played all the notes chromatically both slow and fast, and I'm not able to reproduce anything like the popping/clicking artifacts shown in the video, which I agree are very bad.
> 
> I haven't gone as far as opening individual .wavs and trying those in isolation, but I can if I get some time over the next day or so.



It took me a total of five seconds to find the loud clicking/popping in the instrument, and another minute to find the offending wav files. And my system is rock solid.


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## Cory Pelizzari (May 7, 2018)

Quasar said:


> I have Master Brass, opened two Octohorn instances - there is both an original and a v1.1, I don't remember the details surrounding this - tried the legato and no legato, played all the notes chromatically both slow and fast, and I'm not able to reproduce anything like the popping/clicking artifacts shown in the video, which I agree are very bad.
> 
> I haven't gone as far as opening individual .wavs and trying those in isolation, but I can if I get some time over the next day or so.


When looking you need to have all the mic positions active and test all the notes at each dynamic layer with the mod wheel - the clicks and pops are present in some mic positions and not others, are louder in some mics and not others, and in certain dynamic layers. That's why some people find these issues easily and others don't. The reason I initially found them so quickly is because I was playing the instrument expressively with the modwheel and with all the mics on, so the problems started appearing very fast.


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## Cory Pelizzari (May 7, 2018)

robgb said:


> It took me a total of five seconds to find the loud clicking/popping in the instrument, and another minute to find the offending wav files. And my system is rock solid.


Exactly - I posted an update below the video about this.


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## robgb (May 7, 2018)

Here's just one example. The click comes about a quarter of the way in:


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## Cory Pelizzari (May 7, 2018)

lpuser said:


> Well, you have neither shown where the audio files came from nor did you highlight what you did to crosscheck your assumptions prior to making that video, like e.g. checking on another system, testing in another sample editor, increasing buffer size, checking Kontakt settings etc.?
> 
> I am not saying you don´t have a point, but it is a bold statement to suggest that independent, well-known reviewers deliberately trick potential customers into buying a faulty product by not playing certain notes.


Once again, your suspicion of my motives is a rather paranoid attitude to take. I'm not going to spend laborious amounts of time to prove to your personal satisfaction that what I state is true. The proof is in the pudding. If you would like to put your comment where your wallet is, I highly encourage you to purchase the library and contact me when you do so. I will then send you a list of the samples that are affected, and you can look them up personally for yourself. When you do find the files (and you will) maybe then you'll be satisfied, and I won't have to bend over backwards to convince you just because you believe being contrarian is the more intelligent thing to do in this case. If you think I'm asking too much of you, then think about what you are expecting me to do to provide you with the proof you seek. If you'd rather not go through with the offer I made, I suggest you take your suspicions over to the forum thread for issues concerning Master Brass here: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/master-brass-update.70063/ and you can tell those users that they're just imagining the problem.


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## Thorsten Meyer (May 7, 2018)

The sample list Cory send me does have the issue he describes, I could fix it in RX6. I did inform Auddict about my findings, let them respond pls to learn more about their planned next steps.


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## Cory Pelizzari (May 7, 2018)

robgb said:


> I've edited a couple of the wav files and was able to get rid of the clicking. So I'm not sure why they couldn't also.


The update regarding the ability for an RX fix has been added under the video in this thread.


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## amorphosynthesis (May 7, 2018)

Cory Pelizzari said:


> I'm not going to spend laborious amounts of time to prove to your personal satisfaction that what I state is true. The proof is in the pudding. If you would like to put your comment where your wallet is, I highly encourage you to purchase the library and contact me when you do so.


I am one of these ppl that purchased the library(glad that I did on a VSTbuzz I think offer) and also contacted auddict concerning some other issue with the legato transitions(I don't remember exactly what was the issue to be honest)...but never got a reply.
I really like some of their libraries but Master Brass is....good sounding and full of little glitches here and there,enough to make you regret you have ever purchased.


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## fretti (May 7, 2018)

robgb said:


> Here's just one example. The click comes about a quarter of the way in:


Now I'll really have to test in the future wether it's my speakers or the samples, as they also sometimes give such noises...


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## Cory Pelizzari (May 7, 2018)

fretti said:


> Now I'll really have to test in the future wether it's my speakers or the samples, as they also sometimes give such noises...


That would be a problem, yes. If you're checking for something it's better to use headphones so the sound goes right into your ears - but if you're actually getting pops from your audio interface, you may want to get that sorted out first.


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## fretti (May 7, 2018)

Cory Pelizzari said:


> That would be a problem, yes. If you're checking for something it's better to use headphones so the sound goes right into your ears - but if you're actually getting pops from your audio interface, you may want to get that sorted out first.


Yeah, still on my Presonus Audiobox Usb, with wich I already had problems a few years ago, where -when turning the volume knob- my speakers went crazy (sometimes only one, sometimes none playing and so on...). Spent much though over last year on samples, so now that I'm equipped with everything there I'm going to work on my hardware. But at least now i know that it could not be my speakers but to check also the samples/the VI's themselves for that...


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## Robo Rivard (May 7, 2018)

I have the trombones and just checked them note by note: same pops here and there. Are these all over the place, or concentrated into one or two mic positions?


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## Cory Pelizzari (May 7, 2018)

Robo Rivard said:


> I have the trombones and just checked them note by note: same pops here and there. Are these all over the place, or concentrated into one or two mic positions?


They're a bit all over the place. The horns have them on certain dynamic layers for certain transitions in certain mic positions, and they're louder in some mics than in others. It's not consistent, so I've had to search through all the waves to find the problem ones. It's a real pain.


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## Quasar (May 7, 2018)

Cory Pelizzari said:


> When looking you need to have all the mic positions active and test all the notes at each dynamic layer with the mod wheel - the clicks and pops are present in some mic positions and not others, are louder in some mics and not others, and in certain dynamic layers. That's why some people find these issues easily and others don't. The reason I initially found them so quickly is because I was playing the instrument expressively with the modwheel and with all the mics on, so the problems started appearing very fast.


I activated all of the mic positions in legato octohorn, and just started noodling with modwheel moving randomly. Not fun to listen to, and perhaps not exhaustively comprehensive in terms of all dynamics for each note, but not full of noises either.

there is a sort of weird sucking sound at about 00:12:

""


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## lpuser (May 7, 2018)

Cory Pelizzari said:


> Once again, your suspicion of my motives is a rather paranoid attitude to take.



Calm down buddy. You were the one insulting people. I asked a few legit questions from a pure support point of view, being beta tester for some leading audio software developers since over 30 years. You did not reply to any of those, although you could have simply said "all checked - no solution". That would have been perfect, but obviously not your cup of tea. Instead you were suggesting that other testers did hide these issues ON PURPOSE, which is an absolute no-go, because NOBODY I KNOW would every do this! But hey ... these are days of the internet, so what do I expect.


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## Cory Pelizzari (May 7, 2018)

Quasar said:


> I activated all of the mic positions in legato octohorn, and just started noodling with modwheel moving randomly. Not fun to listen to, and perhaps not exhaustively comprehensive in terms of all dynamics for each note, but not full of noises either.
> 
> there is a sort of weird sucking sound at about 00:12:
> 
> ""



Try searching for this sample in the Octohorns sample folder - normleg_roompair_65_77_28_28


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## Quasar (May 7, 2018)

robgb said:


> Here's just one example. The click comes about a quarter of the way in:



Found the #71 wav, and yes, I do have exactly the same click.


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## Quasar (May 7, 2018)

Cory Pelizzari said:


> Try searching for this sample in the Octohorns sample folder - normleg_roompair_65_77_28_28


 As I dig in a little bit more I am seeing the problem. One would think it wouldn't be a big deal for Auddict to clean this up. It's not hard to remove pops and clicks in almost any audio editor, and there are about a zillion plugs, some free, that can help you do this.


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## MatFluor (May 7, 2018)

Makes you question Quality Control, Beta Testing and Customer Service.


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## Cory Pelizzari (May 7, 2018)

lpuser said:


> Calm down buddy. You were the one insulting people. I asked a few legit questions from a pure support point of view, being beta tester for some leading audio software developers since over 30 years. You did not reply to any of those, although you could have simply said "all checked - no solution". That would have been perfect, but obviously not your cup of tea. Instead you were suggesting that other testers did hide these issues ON PURPOSE, which is an absolute no-go, because NOBODY I KNOW would every do this! But hey ... these are days of the internet, so what do I expect.


Where is this proof that I've gone around "insulting people"? I gave you a clear retort and a means to prove me right or wrong, as you were questioning whether I was telling the truth or not. I have not accused anyone of testing the library and not reporting problems. The evidence suggests that these problems were either a) not found during the beta testing, but eventually found by customers, or b) were in fact reported during testing, and Auddict disregarded these issues and released the library anyway. The problems are specific for certain mic positions, during certain articulations at certain dynamics. They are just as easy to miss as they are to find. I think you may have misconstrued my defence of truth as an attack on testers and reviewers. Like I said, the proof is there for many users of this library. It was not my intent to personally offend you or be short with you - from my perspective you appeared to be saying I was just making all this up and it wasn't true. I apologise for that confusion.


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## Quasar (May 7, 2018)

However one wishes to interpret amyone's motives, QC competence, marketing or whatever, the objective, indisputable fact is that these offending artifacts do exist in some of the samples.

I never noticed this before because I bought the library on one of those warehouse 80% off deals that was "too good to pass up", and confess I haven't used it much at all... But since the problems are clearly there, Cory should be commended for bringing the issue to light, and IMHO Auddict now has a responsibility to provide a fix. No reason to argue about anything.


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## robgb (May 7, 2018)

amorphosynthesis said:


> also contacted auddict concerning some other issue with the legato transitions(I don't remember exactly what was the issue to be honest).


I can hear an occasional timing glitch in the legato that causes a faint, annoying whooping sound on a couple of notes.


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## robgb (May 7, 2018)

Auddict is reportedly working on an update. We'll see.


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## Quasar (May 7, 2018)

robgb said:


> Auddict is reportedly working on an update. We'll see.


Cool. But hopefully this issue with the samples isn't just the outer edge of a much deeper, dark, heinous conspiracy:


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## Consona (May 8, 2018)

Well, I have Cinematic Strings 2 and some patches are full of these pops and noises and thuds. And since I think there's like 0 percent chance it will get any update, I just use de-click and de-noise plugins on those tracks, I'm really happy with the result and the problem is solved. Do I wish those patches were without those problems right out of the box? Of course. But now when I know there are some options how to overcome the problem, I'm ok with using those libs. But I don't want to say it's ok to release something like that. I still needed to make an additional purchases to get rid of the problems, which is not a good sign.


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## fretti (May 8, 2018)

Consona said:


> Well, I have Cinematic Strings 2 and some patches are full of these pops and noises and thuds. And since I think there's like 0 percent chance it will get any update, I just use de-click and de-noise plugins on those tracks, I'm really happy with the result and the problem is solved. Do I wish those patches were without those problems right out of the box? Of course. But now when I know there are some options how to overcome the problem, I'm ok with using those libs. But I don't want to say it's ok to release something like that. I still needed to make an additional purchases to get rid of the problems, which is not a good sign.


Haven‘t used it in a while but I can‘t remember that they had those, gotta look into that later...
Yeah it‘s not good to release stuff like that, I think the low sustain strings from OTs MA1 for example have one or two detuned notes somewhere (if I remember correctely) where I can‘t understand how no one realized that. Or the legatos from HZ strings...though at least Spitfire works on it and will update hopefully soon


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## Consona (May 8, 2018)

fretti said:


> Haven‘t used it in a while but I can‘t remember that they had those, gotta look into that later...


Load something like Basses pizz or shorts, full of thuds and noises. Or the lowest octave of Celli legato has really noticeable click in the legato transition. Some Violions and Violas shorts have clicks and pops, etc.


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## James Marshall (May 8, 2018)

@Auddict - care to chime in?


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## Auddict (May 9, 2018)

We are going through all samples now - moved to top priority. No excuses at all, we have a lot more BETA testers now and QC before releases than we used to (we need to, with such fast and unexpected growth). All users can expect new links delivered to them very soon with a download to the Master Brass with all samples checked and if necessary, cleaned - of course this will be interchangeable with the existing version, so users can simply swap the library (or indeed just the samples folder) out. Biggest apologies for this!


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## Thorsten Meyer (May 9, 2018)

Auddict said:


> We are going through all samples now - moved to top priority. No excuses at all, we have a lot more BETA testers now and QC before releases than we used to (we need to, with such fast and unexpected growth). All users can expect new links delivered to them very soon with a download to the Master Brass with all samples checked and if necessary, cleaned - of course this will be interchangeable with the existing version, so users can simply swap the library (or indeed just the samples folder) out. Biggest apologies for this!



Thank you for coming back, I look forward to the fixed version.


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## Grizzlymv (May 9, 2018)

Auddict said:


> We are going through all samples now - moved to top priority. Biggest apologies for this!


Thanks for the follow up guys. Looking forward for the fix.


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## Auddict (May 17, 2018)

Just a quick message to let everyone know that this fix is almost ready and out, we have not forgotten


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## Leon Portelance (May 17, 2018)

I bought Master Brass from a seller, but it was reported to you (Auddict),


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## Auddict (Jun 6, 2018)

OK we've got the fix ready, and will be announcing this via e-mail soon to all customers - in the mean time, anyone who wants to download the cleaned update please drop an e-mail to [email protected]  Apologies for the delay!


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## Mucusman (Aug 13, 2018)

Well, gave up waiting for an email from Auddict, so I emailed Auddict directly using the address above... days later, still waiting for any reply/links...


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## James Marshall (Aug 14, 2018)

Mucusman said:


> Well, gave up waiting for an email from Auddict, so I emailed Auddict directly using the address above... days later, still waiting for any reply/links...



Just to give you a bit of hope, I did contact them using the same address and received the update. They did take about three days to get back to me. I had a quick skim through the presets and the clicks and pops do seems to be generally improved, although I haven't had a chance to test extensively.

Good luck!


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## Robo Rivard (Aug 14, 2018)

James Marshall said:


> Just to give you a bit of hope, I did contact them using the same address and received the update. They did take about three days to get back to me. I had a quick skim through the presets and the clicks and pops do seems to be generally improved, although I haven't had a chance to test extensively.
> 
> Good luck!


I sent an email in June, with the proof of purchase, and never got an answer.


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## AllanH (Aug 14, 2018)

hmm. I haven't heard anything either. It's really strange behavior as they stated here two months ago than an update was imminent.


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## Leon Portelance (Aug 14, 2018)

I sent an email and they sent me the update right away.


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## Robo Rivard (Aug 14, 2018)

That's not funny.


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## paulmatthew (Aug 14, 2018)

AllanH said:


> hmm. I haven't heard anything either. It's really strange behavior as they stated here two months ago than an update was imminent.


Never saw the additional Angel Strings walkthrough that they were supposedly doing .


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## Robo Rivard (Aug 14, 2018)

That's what I wrote them on June 6th:

"Hi there,

I just saw on V.I. Control forum that you are releasing an update for the Masterbrass products.

I own the Trombones. Here's the receipt:

Dear Robert Rivard,

This notification is just a friendly reminder (not a bill or a second charge) that on 13-Mar-2017, you placed an order from Auddict Store. The charge will appear on your bill as "FS *auddict.com". This is just a reminder to help you recognize the charge.

------------------------------------
Order Summary
------------------------------------
Order ID: AUD (my personal order number)

Auddict Master Brass: Trombones

Order Total: US$55.50"


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## richardt4520 (Aug 15, 2018)

I've got the whole set of brass. Other than clicks and general weirdness from time to time, my only other complaint is lack of a ff bell rattling dynamic layer. The instruments sound sweet and rich otherwise. I shot them an email yesterday requesting the updates, but I'm not holding my breath since i emailed a different question to them weeks ago. They never responded....


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## Cory Pelizzari (Aug 17, 2018)

AllanH said:


> hmm. I haven't heard anything either. It's really strange behavior as they stated here two months ago than an update was imminent.


Exactly what I expected to be honest. This thread will in time prove whether or not they even care about quality control. Even their new libraries are shipping with substantial flaws.


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## Cory Pelizzari (Aug 17, 2018)

Mucusman said:


> Well, gave up waiting for an email from Auddict, so I emailed Auddict directly using the address above... days later, still waiting for any reply/links...


Let's hope the sampling market doesn't turn into Steam where games are released in "alpha" and never, ever patched.


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