# Mike Verta: Counterpoint 1



## aaronventure

I got this class a while ago and was quite impressed but somehow never wrote a review about it.

You've probably heard about it. Counterpoint. Might have even done a Google search, ran into "species counterpoint", a talk of rules and whatnot, but never really grasped it completely.

Well, *LOOK NO FURTHER!*

Good old marketing speech aside, this is a fantastic class. After the introduction, you will have zero confusion or dilemma about what counterpoint is. Next, Mike proceeds to play in a melody in strings, to which he writes a bunch of different counter-lines for various different instruments. *Yes, DAW playback, screencast, samples - concrete examples.*

He explains and demonstrates his reasoning for every iteration, what its effects are, common uses and what's the essence of them.

Not being much of a theory guy, the class helped me further understand counterpoint and clear any doubts I've had. I've learned how to quickly and effectively use counterpoint as a simple developmental tool that just _works. _

I can't recommend this class enough.

There's also a 40% sale right now (code: UNLEASHED), making it *$18. *For the price of 4 beers you will be able to effortlessly add movement and interest to your music, have a laugh or two and generally learn a lot.

Counterpoint 1


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## paulmatthew

Thanks for the review . I bought Theory 1 last night . I'm planning to get Counterpoint 1 and maybe one or 2 other master classes soon. I've been purchasing and doing a lot of online courses this holiday season rather than buying libraries. Best to learn putting things together with what I already have. My brain is fried right now between learning sound design and composition and working 1 on 1 with one of my favorite producers in electronic music . It's a whirlwind but things are clicking . Any thoughts on any of Mike's other master classes?


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## aaronventure

paulmatthew said:


> Thanks for the review . I bought Theory 1 last night . I'm planning to get Counterpoint 1 and maybe one or 2 other master classes soon. I've been purchasing and doing a lot of online courses this holiday season rather than buying libraries. Best to learn putting things together with what I already have. My brain is fried right now between learning sound design and composition and working 1 on 1 with one of my favorite producers in electronic music . It's a whirlwind but things are clicking . Any thoughts on any of Mike's other master classes?



If you didn't take them, Comp 1, Comp 2 and Orchestration these are the foundation for Mike's teaching style and philosophy.

All That Jazz is also very important, I'd say. It's not about learning jazz, but about the impact of jazz and what it teaches us.

Once you have these, you can go wherever you want with other classes - to whatever interests you. All of them are very good, and you'll learn important things from every single one.


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## paulmatthew

Thank you for the information. I'll look into those .


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## Ilko Birov

I recently purchased Mike Verta's Composition 1 and Orchestration 1. 
Thanks for the positive review! Just got Counterpoint 1, and am looking forward to it!


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## Ellest

paulmatthew said:


> I bought Theory 1 last night



TBH, I think you'd only find Theory 1 helpful if you have no Music Theory background whatsoever. I'm by no means a music major/minor (I only took basic theory and some composition in college) and I'm pretty much self-taught, but the material covered in Theory 1 was too basic for me. With that said, I did find a couple of interesting approaches to certain things I've not seen elsewhere (and I've watched a ton of Youtube Videos and read a bunch of articles).


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## AdamAlake

Bought the class a week ago, immensely helpful.


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## Ronny D. Ana

Who long are the masterclasses of Mike Verta and why do all of the demos or sketches not work for me? Do they have special prereqs? I am Using chrome or edge and Windows 10, any ideas? And what software do i need for Mikes masterclasses (would not attend one if it would not work for me)?
Thanx in advance for any hints


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## tack

Ronny D. Ana said:


> Who long are the masterclasses of Mike Verta


See this spreadsheet.



Ronny D. Ana said:


> why do all of the demos or sketches not work for me


Yeah, not sure. They're broken for me too (except for The Race since it's an embedded Youtube video).



Ronny D. Ana said:


> Do they have special prereqs? I am Using chrome or edge and Windows 10, any ideas? And what software do i need for Mikes masterclasses (would not attend one if it would not work for me)?


Any HTML5 capable browser should do. The classes are served up from Vimeo, so if you can play a video on vimeo.com, you're good to go.


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## Ronny D. Ana

Thanx a lot, that answers all my questions. 
I tried to contact Mike via https://mikeverta.com/category/words/
Maybe he has a solution


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## PeterN

Any Masterclass out there with Vertas take on phrase libraries? (Sonokinetic and such).

Or has he touched this issue in any particular class?

I have realized they limit an overall melodic movement, but at times provide a realism that, say, just layering staccatos cant do. But its “gluey” - if such a word even exist.

And if there is none of this type of Masterclass, then thats on a “wishlist”, Mike. From a guy who has become big fan of the practical approach, professionalism, and, shall we say, honesty, in these classes. Great job.


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## AlexanderSchiborr

PeterN said:


> Any Masterclass out there with Vertas take on phrase libraries? (Sonokinetic and such).
> 
> Or has he touched this issue in any particular class?
> 
> I have realized they limit an overall melodic movement, but at times provide a realism that, say, just layering staccatos cant do. But its “gluey” - if such a word even exist.
> 
> And if there is none of this type of Masterclass, then thats on a “wishlist”, Mike. From a guy who has become big fan of the practical approach, professionalism, and, shall we say, honesty, in these classes. Great job.



Well, I am not speaking for Mike, but from what I know about him, this will not happen because exactly this is something what he tries to avoid: using phrase libraries to write music with. I get your point though that sometimes phrase libraries can enhance certain orchestral textures, but actually I don´t see that as a mandatory skill to enhance your writing or orchestration per se. I would say, it is something minor in my opinion. Good sounding orchestral music is completely independent of such phrase libraries.


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## PeterN

Thanks for reply Alexander.

Issue is specific in low end, brass doing realistic staccato movements and such. (And not talking epic here, just realism). The phrase stuff stands out doing it, layering it yourself will leave the machine sound, just a taste of unrealistic sound.


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## AlexanderSchiborr

PeterN said:


> Thanks for reply Alexander.
> 
> Issue is specific in low end, brass doing realistic staccato movements and such. (And not talking epic here, just realism). The phrase stuff stands out doing it, layering it yourself will leave the machine sound, just a taste of unrealistic sound.



Well are you talking about repitition low brass stabs and staccs? Such thing?


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## PeterN

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Well are you talking about repitition low brass stabs and staccs? Such thing?



Yup, lets say the low brass does A, C, F, A, C, F or whatever similar pattern. In a pattern under melody (and possibly under countermelody too). Personally I find phrase libraries giving lot more realism than layering this yourself. But occasionally you need to glue this stuff in, and mix it with stuff you layered yourself, and theres an overall limit in freedom. (Well, at least, that how I do it on some tracks).

Then theres also phrase libraries like Expressivo, or Spitfire IV etc, I cant imagine anyone tweak out sounds like that just layering it yourself.

Not meaning to hijack this thread. If Verta would have an opinion on possible usefullness of phrase libraries it would be interesting to hear his take on this.


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## PeterN

Sorry Alex in case you misunderstood. Didnt mean you were hijacking the thread - and I do appreciate your opinion after hearing the great stuff you make - it was meant as - I didnt - want to hijack this thread with personal layering questions.

Just curious if Verta has any take on this phrase stuff, and if not, looking forward to hear it one day.


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## JeffvR

PeterN said:


> Any Masterclass out there with Vertas take on phrase libraries? (Sonokinetic and such).
> 
> Or has he touched this issue in any particular class?
> 
> I have realized they limit an overall melodic movement, but at times provide a realism that, say, just layering staccatos cant do. But its “gluey” - if such a word even exist.
> 
> And if there is none of this type of Masterclass, then thats on a “wishlist”, Mike. From a guy who has become big fan of the practical approach, professionalism, and, shall we say, honesty, in these classes. Great job.



He talked about using ProjectSAM clusters and such in a horror type of film (SCORING 1). He uses it there, just for the speed. But he doesn't layers it endlessly so it's still playable for a real orchestra. And when sheet music is needed he's still able to write down what's been played. I can't recall he talks about phrase libraries but I can imagine he hates it.


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## PeterN

Yea, well, first off, I shouldnt have mentioned Spitfire IV since its not phrase. (I dont have it, but thats my understanding). And the Expressivo can also be seen as specific articulations, not necessarily only phrase. Am I right?

So back to basics. I get into the definition of phrase here now, where is the line drawn between a phrase and an articulation type of sound.

But if we take Sonokinetic, and their Minimal for example. You got these ready phrases for, say, low brass, and they sound more realistic than building them up yourself. Of course we may get into issues with reverb, freedom of movement, sound of instrument, and other stuff, but if you strive for realism, (with virtual orchestra), why would anyone dish them like that? Particularly the low brass make a pumping sound, you cant layer that as realistically yourself. What I do I sometimes cut some of these phrases, and put them under, say, a climax, and it can work great. Just curious. CAN they be used - may they be used - or should they be avoided - whats the opinion of a senior 

(And another point here with phrase libraries - they can be used as a tool for learning orchestration. And for testing stuff, i.e. rather than putting in plenty time in trying various types of layering, you can test stuff with phrases. Cant see anything wrong with that either.)


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## MatFluor

As far as I saw, there are two very hardened sides to this:

- "Never use Phrase libraries! You don't have control, you're cheating, you sound exactly the same as others with the same phrase library, it makes you lazy, your client could even start to hear the phrases after time"

- "Use whatever works! If you need a realistic sounding brass phrase in a pinch, then use it. Be it for inspiration or for final cues - phrase libraries are your friend! Don't use them exclusively, but hey, it's about working, and you use whatever tools make the client happy in the end"

I'm more in the second group. As long as I don't overuse phrases, and still know what I'm doing (which with Sonokinetic is given to a degree), then I'm good. In the end - the client needs to be happy, the cue has to serve the product. It can be a subtle line behind everything to give a dash of realism into it, it can be a prominent part of the accompaniment. If the client is happy, I am happy. That's my job, not to have everything "100% selfmade". If I can get some help, I take it. I still try to use them as seldom as possible - but there have been some instances where a phrase from Capriccio was *just* the thing I needed in the mockup. I try to do it with my standard VIs - doesn't sound quite good, I look through some phrases, try them out, and BAM - that's the sound I need. IMO nothing's wrong with that.


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## Will Blackburn

love mikes classes, need to get this counterpoint one soon.


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