# Love/hate relationship with Logic Pro X



## spikescott (Jun 12, 2015)

I'm getting extremely frustrated with Logic Pro X. As a a busy professional media composer, I have deadlines to hit. I don't need buggy tools. They interrupt workflow and cause much annoyance. For the most part, I love Logic and have been using versions of it since the early days of Emagic. 

Right now though, it's causing a great deal of distress. For the first time I'm seriously looking around at other DAWs, even though I know the learning curve will be vast.

Anybody else in a similar situ? If so, have you made the jump and to what?


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## clisma (Jun 12, 2015)

What specifically are you encountering that hinders your process?

Personally, I get along with X well enough, despite the occasional hiccup and absence of elegant solutions to simple problems (I.e. An easy way to print stems, although I have a decent workaround). But often, I work with digital performer, which of course has its own great advantages and solid shortcomings. I suspect the same can be said for virtually anything out there. Grass is always greener...


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## spikescott (Jun 12, 2015)

I'm getting various mysterious little bugs - like random automation that's completely hidden, phantom soloing, partial soloing where some tracks are still audible etc. Its the time in takes to unearth what is going on & then cure it (if possible) that is totally disruptive.

In general I think Pro X has been a good update, but proving to be buggy and these bugs are getting under my skin. I have ProTools (10), but I use that strictly for audio.


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## clisma (Jun 12, 2015)

I've heard of some of these problems before (phantom soloing) and they can be difficult to deal with, other than restarting the app. As a thought: if you are starting from a template, especially if it carried over from previous versions of Logic, it could be an issue. If not, disregard. 

I haven't used Pro Tools for MIDI in years, but I remember not being pleased with their implementation, though that may have changed by now. VI handling could be another issue from what I understand, unless you use Vienna Ensemble. 

If you are doing any kind of scoring to picture, I think DP has some fantastic features: unparalleled tempo/marker/hit-point tools, chunks (letting you have many sequences with the same sound-set in a project file), V-Racks (goes along with the chunks idea), etc, to name a few. 

Problems for me with DP: interface is a bit too busy and nowhere near as elegant and minimalistic, yet effective, as Logic. It also tends to have icons that are just too small, so I zoom around a lot. Mixer is a bit clunky, though flexible. And midi manipulation, while quite thorough, seems less precise and requires a bit more clicking. 

However, I think for audio work it is superior to Logic, also allowing you to print plugin effects to an audio file, rather than only apply it in real time. 

In the past I've used Cubase and really liked it for MIDI. Intuitive, powerful and well thought-out. Good score editor to boot (for that time at least). I moved away from it because it was in the days before the redesign of its mixing facilities. 

Hope this helps a bit.
Luc


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## clisma (Jun 12, 2015)

By the way, if you can, please do report these bugs to apple via this form:

https://www.apple.com/feedback/logic-pro.html

They won't reply for confirmation, but in my experience it does help if the community posts bugs in numbers. They are eventually addressed.


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## gpax (Jun 12, 2015)

clisma @ Fri Jun 12 said:


> By the way, if you can, please do report these bugs to apple via this form:
> 
> https://www.apple.com/feedback/logic-pro.html
> 
> They won't reply for confirmation, but in my experience it does help if the community posts bugs in numbers. They are eventually addressed.


I actually have received replies from them on two different occasions since LPX was released, asking me to provide more details. So you never know...


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## clisma (Jun 12, 2015)

gpax @ Fri Jun 12 said:


> clisma @ Fri Jun 12 said:
> 
> 
> > By the way, if you can, please do report these bugs to apple via this form:
> ...



Great to know! Means it's working better than expected and they take it seriously. But there is a lot to be done still.


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## mc_deli (Jun 12, 2015)

The laggy GUI is killing me. A few odd things with automation and patch saving I can handle. The unintuitive mixer window that won't lock channels in place drives me fairly nuts. But the painfully slow window resizing and horrible lag with region dragging that I am experiencing leave me fuming most days :( Easily the worst user experience since Logic 6 for me.


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## clisma (Jun 12, 2015)

mc_deli @ Fri Jun 12 said:


> The laggy GUI is killing me. A few odd things with automation and patch saving I can handle. The unintuitive mixer window that won't lock channels in place drives me fairly nuts. But the painfully slow window resizing and horrible lag with region dragging that I am experiencing leave me fuming most days :( Easily the worst user experience since Logic 6 for me.



Aside from the automation bit (for me in the CC pane of the Piano Editor) I haven't had any of these issues. I would have especially noticed the lag in resizing windows. 

About that: do you resize windows to random sizes or do you like to approximate a couple or so that you always reuse? I ask because I've been using this little utility for a couple of years now and it makes the process of resizing windows to preconfigured sizes in any app much easier and faster: http://manytricks.com/moom/

Once set up, it's a breeze to use with your favorite, system-wide key command.


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## olajideparis (Jun 12, 2015)

Long time Logic Pro user, made the jump to Cubase a couple years ago couldn't be happier. There's a reason a lot of Logic users are moving to Cubase these days, Logic has lost its competitive edge and its buggy as all hell. Make the move you won't regret it.


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## Soundhound (Jun 12, 2015)

Is Cubase less buggy than Logic? I'm so sick of Logic bugs, I lose so much time to that crap! I have nothing to compare it to though, I've been using it the last 10 years, last thing I really used was Performer before it was DP (I took a few decades off) I have been looking around but haven't tried anything else out yet. It would be lovely to just turn things on and write instead of troubleshooting all the time.


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## olajideparis (Jun 12, 2015)

Cubase is not perfect by any means but I haven't experienced anywhere near the number of bugs with it in the year and a half I have been using it as I did with Logic. With Logic it was a constant thing and there was always something different going wrong with it.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 13, 2015)

olajideparis @ Fri Jun 12 said:


> Long time Logic Pro user, made the jump to Cubase a couple years ago couldn't be happier. There's a reason a lot of Logic users are moving to Cubase these days, Logic has lost its competitive edge and its buggy as all hell. Make the move you won't regret it.



And yet I continue to get hired by people to help them switch from Cubase to Logic Pro and they don't go back.


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## DHousden (Jun 13, 2015)

I actually switched from Pro-Tools to Logic X when Avid changed the format from RTAS to AAX, as it rendered the majority of my sample libraries obsolete at the time! Some things I love, some things I find aren't particularly logical at all! Overall, it's great for the pricepoint, but the bugs are the worst. I run reasonably small sessions on a reasonably powerful system and it's constantly tripping out over various things. 

I've since gone back to Pro-Tools as everyone's got on board with the compatibility now, but I find working with MIDI far less intuitive now that I've got used to Logic. I've been considering a move to Cubase as a happy medium between the two, but dreading having to learn another DAW from scratch again!


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 13, 2015)

Not to be an Apple apologista nor deny that LP X has bugs but I consistently find that when I help people who are having trouble with it, I quickly realize they just don't know the app well enough to use it efficiently.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 13, 2015)

I have a client who switched from DP last year and he has been constantly frustrated because he expected to work like DP, which of course it does not. But he persevered and I helped him and now he just finished a project in Logic Pro and he wrote me, "Logic worked brilliantly."


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## DHousden (Jun 13, 2015)

That's the thing, Logic is brilliant but there just seems to be no consistency with it. Sometimes I can run a 40+ track session seamlessly, others it decides to make tough work of a 10 track sketch of ensemble patches! To be fair, it's a very rare occasion when it really goes to pot, but the little niggles occur on a fairly regular basis. If the problems lie with my system set-up or personal skill set, then that's great because it would be a brilliant piece of software if it was more stable!


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 13, 2015)

DHousden @ Sat Jun 13 said:


> That's the thing, Logic is brilliant but there just seems to be no consistency with it. Sometimes I can run a 40+ track session seamlessly, others it decides to make tough work of a 10 track sketch of ensemble patches! To be fair, it's a very rare occasion when it really goes to pot, but the little niggles occur on a fairly regular basis. If the problems lie with my system set-up or personal skill set, then that's great because it would be a brilliant piece of software if it was more stable!



Well anytime you want to hire me..... 8)


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## olajideparis (Jun 13, 2015)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jun 13 said:


> olajideparis @ Fri Jun 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Long time Logic Pro user, made the jump to Cubase a couple years ago couldn't be happier. There's a reason a lot of Logic users are moving to Cubase these days, Logic has lost its competitive edge and its buggy as all hell. Make the move you won't regret it.
> ...



Well there are bound to be people going both ways due to personal preferences but by and large the Logic defectors I have encountered have been very happy with the move. Charlie Clouser is the latest Logic veteran I have heard of making the move to Cubase and though there seems to be some growing pains he seems basically happy. Now if Steinberg doesn't watch carefully at what Studio One is doing then I think you'll see more Logic users jumping ship to Studio One in the future. By all accounts that is a lean, mean, forward-thinking DAW! I have to say I am impressed with it myself but not enough to move away from Cubase but there may come a time where it makes sense. In any case I couldn't imagine ever going back to Logic, every time I go back to work in it to access an older project I am reminded of why I left it in the first place. 

It may be the right tool for some people but it definitely is not and never will be again for me and based on my knowledge of both programs I often encourage others who felt let down by it to explore Cubase. But every so often I run into somebody who is set on sticking with Logic and I end up referring them to you, not sure if any of these people have followed through and actually made appointments but on that note I may want to put you in touch with my Dad and uncle at some point. They are both Logic users in the LA area and can always use some tips, though they are more on the songwriting side of things than composition.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 13, 2015)

I doubt that Charlie's change will stick because he uses the EXS24 to a greater extent than anyone I know.

It will be interesting to see though because Charlie is a power user for sure.

And thanks for the kind words Olajilde.

BTW, let me be clear that if someone transitions for Logic Pro to another app and is happier, I am happy for them.


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## stonzthro (Jun 13, 2015)

So you DON'T get a spiff from Apple for user retention? And this whole time I thought you were only pretending to love Logic! 

It's like I don't even know you Jay!


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## charlieclouser (Jun 13, 2015)

olajideparis @ Sat Jun 13 said:


> Charlie Clouser is the latest Logic veteran I have heard of making the move to Cubase and though there seems to be some growing pains he seems basically happy.



Yeahhhh...... I'm not totally sold on Cubase yet. So much stuff I just don't need, so many things that are just not there at all:

- In Logic, you can assign a single key command to "toggle mute", but in Cubase it's one key to mute, and another to unmute. Super annoying. I was able to make a Logical Preset that accomplished toggle mute from a single key, but... hassle.

- In Logic, you can "re-use" key commands, and it will figure out which one to use based on what window is topped. I've relied upon this for years and it's pretty, well.... Logical.

- Logic's "hold control key to lasso a zoom range" - can't live without it.

- Logic's "object solo" in the Arrange window - can't live without it.

I do like some of the stuff in Cubase, but as I set out to replicate my 200+ EXS template from Logic over in Cubase / Kontakt / VEPro I realized that it took so many more clicks, so much more setup, so many more files to save (VEP frames, Kontakt multis, etc.) just to get to the same place I was at in my twelve-year-old Logic template that loads from a single document... I dunno. 

If I was doing everything in Kontakt, or trying to do big orchestral simulations with libraries that are just "load factory preset and never touch it again" mode, maybe... but I never do that stuff. I can appreciate the unlimited number of tracks / aux busses / MIDI channels, and I do like the enhanced support for VEPro that you get when using the VST spec as opposed to the AU spec - but so much of that is stuff that I simply don't need.

Then there's the issue of EXS24. The ability to "Include Assets" in Logic's Save dialog, and have it copy all EXS instruments and samples over to the project folder.... man, that's a huge one. My song files are completely transportable. With one click I can put an entire project onto a USB stick and I could go to the Apple store and load up any cue I've ever done on a machine on the floor in two minutes. If I need to move a project to the B rig I don't have to worry if the B rig has all the Kontakt libraries authorized, etc. 

When I actually look at how I work, 95% of my time is spent doing very basic stuff, and I appreciate that this is the stuff that I can do super-fast in Logic. I don't even use automation! Not because it's broken in Logic (it very well might be) but because I just don't need it. 

For the way I actually wind up working, and the things I actually "need", Logic is still way out in front. I recognize the "superiority" of Cubase, and that's what appealed to the techno-fetishist in me, but it's sort of like an exotic supercar, whereas Logic is sort of like a Corvette. The supercar is technically better on paper, with a higher top speed, advanced all-wheel-drive with sophisticated traction control that you can set via a knob on the steering wheel - but all I need is fast zero-to-60 times. I don't need to go 220 mph, I just want to feel brutal acceleration up to highway speed and then cruise in comfort, without needing an expensive "engine-out" service and new tires every 3,000 miles. 

I'm still undecided if I'll actually switch. I bought Cubase and started learning it partly our of curiosity, partly out of fear that MacOS / Logic might morph into something I just can't deal with - but switching to a bunch of windows machines kind of makes me cringe even harder.

So... yeah... not totally convinced yet.

And, regarding these bugs and issues people seem to have with Logic, I have not experienced any of that stuff - phantom solo, whatever. Everything works as expected on my rig. Some things look worse, like the grey-on-black user interface in the EXS editor, but that's a "feature, not a bug". I did build a new template from scratch in Logic X instead of importing a Logic v9 template - maybe this has something to do with it?


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## olajideparis (Jun 13, 2015)

Well Charlie, your needs are certainly unique! I think its great you were at least willing to give Cubase a try and were objective enough to acknowledge its technical superiority over Logic while simply admitting that you didn't need it's advanced feature set. As for the EXS 24 that is not among the few things I miss from Logic but my guess is you have accumulated a very large custom EXS24 library over the years which you rely upon for your daily work. So yeah, in your case it very well could be that Logic is the best program for your workflow. I wish more people would have the courage to at least try a new DAW to form their own opinions about it, its really not as difficult as people let on.


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## charlieclouser (Jun 13, 2015)

Yeah, I don't have a problem learning a new DAW, even at my advanced age! I spent a few hours a day for maybe a week just fiddling with Cubase, spent four hours with a Cubase expert sitting next to me, and that was it. I was up and running within an hour on the first day, and after a couple of hours setting up my own key commands to more or less match what I have in Logic, I was able to basically get to work if needed. Spending four hours with the Cubase expert was more about dissecting a huge template that he brought over and hearing how some of the RC guys with huge setups are laying things out. Over the years I've used more than a dozen different recording / sequencing environments, and these days I use 3 or 4 regularly (Logic, ProTools, Ableton, Reason) so learning another one is not really a big deal. I still have a lot to learn, but I could work effectively in Cubase today if I had to.

A lot of it comes down to whether you like things to be simple or complex. Watching those JunkieXL videos about his zillions of drum maps across multiple slaves gives a good example. He's got like 3,000 Kontakt instruments with multiple velocities of a single drum on each one, whereas I've got basically the same 3,000 drum instruments living in just 32 instances of EXS - and it all loads up on one machine. What takes up a whole MIDI channel, VEPro slot, and Kontakt instrument on his rig occupies just one of the 88 notes on just one MIDI channel on my rig. When he wants to create a pattern with some accents on rim hits, or complex articulations of tabla drums, he'd have to move some notes from one track to another, balance levels between multiple instruments, etc. When I want to do it I just play in real-time on a single, cheap and cheerful EXS instance. Same sound, different process. He gets to look at the data "sideways" whereas I'm looking at it "vertically" but there's really not going to be much difference in the sound when all is said and done.

There's a lot of parallels between music tech and cars - I have two 1970 Dodge muscle cars that both came from the factory with the same 440 engine and 727 transmission - different models, but same drivetrain in both. One is basically stock, and the other is fully "built", with a stroker motor with roller cam, high-flow fuel pump with return lines, worked-over transmission, blah blah blah. 

Guess which one is more fun to drive and always just works, and which one is sort of "too much" and always has something that needs attention, upgrading, or repair? The "built" car is not even THAT much faster than the stock one. Sounds way more savage (and cost a hell of a lot more), but the "built" car is on its second engine since I've had it - the first one went into grenade mode and blew the hood clean off the car under full throttle. Engine was toast, shrapnel everywhere. Get out the checkbook.

On the stock car I had the starter relay go bad, so turning the key wouldn't start the engine. Six inches of wire, two alligator clips, bypass that shit, and vroom-vroom. (Just make damn sure it's in park!) On the "built" car, when something goes wrong, it's on the back of a flatbed. Time to get out the checkbook.

My wife won't even ride in the "built" car any more - she's afraid it's going to burst into flames... again. 

That's kind of how I feel when comparing my Logic rig to a Cubase rig. If something gets weird in the Logic rig I can fix it with a piece of wire and possibly a hammer. If something goes wrong on the big Cubase / VEPro / Kontakt rig, it's more like "call the flatbed". It's not even a money thing - it's more about the time, hassle, and "fragility" of a more complex setup that I shy away from. As soon as I spend a week setting up a Lemur template or whatever, and get to the point where I can't live without it, the freakin' company will probably go out of business - or get bought by Apple and shut down, like Camel Audio or Redmatica.

In the long run my thought process is like, "It's only music. We're not launching the space shuttle here. Lives are NOT at stake." Sound is most important, workflow is second, but if you can get the sound you want in either platform, then I'll use the one whose workflow is the most comfy and suitable for long drives at speed.


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## rickdeckard (Jun 13, 2015)

charlieclouser @ Sat Jun 13 said:


> olajideparis @ Sat Jun 13 said:
> 
> 
> > Charlie Clouser is the latest Logic veteran I have heard of making the move to Cubase and though there seems to be some growing pains he seems basically happy.
> ...



Hello Charlie, if i'm not wrong in Cubase you have the "Mute Object" that is a toggle single key command that works exactly like in Logic, I use it all the time.

I have a question for all the Logic Pro X users: I encountered countless bugs or strange behaviours, but somehow i can live with most of them, but my biggest problem with Logic is that sometimes when i bounce a track and listen to it again, it's "wrong", i mean maybe one note is stuck, maybe one cc gets ignored, maybe an effect gets bypassed...and it's completely random and inconsistent.
does it happen to you too?

all the best!
rick


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## DHousden (Jun 14, 2015)

Yup I've experienced that on the odd occasion Rick. Most common annoyance for me is midi notes not sounding in the piano roll when clicked. Have to reopen Logic and it all works fine again. So bizarre, it's the inconsistency which is most annoying though. It can work perfectly for months and then out of nowhere, on a relatively small session, odd things can happen.

Charlie's experience with Cubase hasn't exactly sold it to me though, I may just force myself to get used to writing in Pro-Tools again to be honest!


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## Soundhound (Jun 14, 2015)

I get that same thing, notes not sounding when clicked on in the piano roll. Sometimes switching to another midi region and then back again will fix it, sometimes not. It seems related to, but not always, the piano roll not reflecting the currently selected midi region. When that happens switching to another screenset (and back again) will fix it, sometimes not. In that case I have to either reload the project (revert to command is sometimes enough) other times I have to reboot Logic.


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## olajideparis (Jun 14, 2015)

I love pro tools for tracking and editing audio, but it would in no way be superior to either Logic or Cubase for midi based composition.


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## samphony (Jun 14, 2015)

Just as a FYI the new AU v3 will allow 256midi ports x 16ch.


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## DHousden (Jun 14, 2015)

Yeah that was my understanding as well, but it's what I was taught on, and I still use it to mix at the moment. Not to mention it's solid as a rock for me in terms of performance, which is paramount. As I mentioned earlier, I was considering Cubase as a happy medium but I've heard it doesn't run as well on Mac as it does for PC? Plus I value simplicity of approach, and I can't see myself taking to it particularly well if it's as Charlie described!


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## olajideparis (Jun 14, 2015)

Cubase does seems to run slightly better on Windows than on Mac but its not a huge difference. Its perfectly fine on OSX for the most part.


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## charlieclouser (Jun 14, 2015)

samphony @ Sun Jun 14 said:


> Just as a FYI the new AU v3 will allow 256midi ports x 16ch.



Okay, now we're talking. This is HUGE for VEPro users. Hopefully VSL will get right on that and roll out an update in a timely manner....


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## charlieclouser (Jun 14, 2015)

DHousden @ Sun Jun 14 said:


> Yeah that was my understanding as well, but it's what I was taught on, and I still use it to mix at the moment. Not to mention it's solid as a rock for me in terms of performance, which is paramount. As I mentioned earlier, I was considering Cubase as a happy medium but I've heard it doesn't run as well on Mac as it does for PC? Plus I value simplicity of approach, and I can't see myself taking to it particularly well if it's as Charlie described!



Well, Cubase doesn't HAVE to be crazy complex on the screen - you can customize the user interface to an insane degree, choosing what elements and controls to show or hide way beyond what you can do in Logic, so it's possible to have a "stripped down" look or a "show me every single button" look. But when you compare the two Cubase reminds me of a Formula One steering wheel!


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## olajideparis (Jun 14, 2015)

WOW! I had no idea they looked like THAT!!!


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## charlieclouser (Jun 14, 2015)

After watching Doug Wyatt's presentation on the new AU3 spec at WWDC 2015, it occurs to me: If I were a plugin developer, I'd feel much more confident developing for AU3 than VST, since the AU spec is at the OS level, with very complete support and documentation (and arena-sized presentations) provided by the company that's providing the hardware and the operating system. Probably a bit more confidence-inspiring than digging through Steinberg's documentation on the VST spec, and hoping that it all plays nicely with various versions of Windows, various hardware combinations, etc.

The stuff about being able to sell AU plugins in the App stores will probably be great for developers, and may finally start to erode iLok usage on Mac, since App store downloads are authorized to your iCloud account. This might also mean that, like Logic, a single purchase will work across all computers that are tied to your account - so buy it once, install it on your DAW, three slaves, and your laptop, with no serial numbers, iLoks, challenge / response, auth servers, etc.

Never mind the improved implementation for plugins and audio interchange with iOS units like iPads, etc. This might mean that we'll soon be using multi-touch plugins and synths on iPad without routing audio via the little headphone cable!

Now I'm excited about AU and Apple's audio team again...


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## samphony (Jun 14, 2015)

@charlie
Exactly my observations as well. 
Logic is the only DAW that I know of that allows multiple arrange/mixer window layout. 
Until yesterday while chatting with Steve duda I didn't know that logic allows 3rd party midi FX in the midi fx slot like it does with AU. 

I'm confident that we see more outstanding updates to logic in the future.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 15, 2015)

olajideparis @ Sun Jun 14 said:


> Cubase does seems to run slightly better on Windows than on Mac but its not a huge difference. Its perfectly fine on OSX for the most part.



Two years ago with a promise from me not to name him a Steinberg guy said to me, "Yeah, Cubase still runs better on a PC."

My motto has always been, "Choose the software you want to run then get the machine that runs it best." So if I ever had to switch I would keep my Mac for my non-musical tasks and buy a second PC for music.


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## Tatu (Jun 15, 2015)

OT, but.. I wonder how many current plugin developers are willing to give Apple a solid 30%(?) cut from sales through App Store?


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## luke_7 (Jun 15, 2015)

For me and other friends i know of Cubase pro 8 runs better on Mac. Yep Cubase pro 8


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## gsilbers (Jun 15, 2015)

charlieclouser @ Sun Jun 14 said:


> samphony @ Sun Jun 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Just as a FYI the new AU v3 will allow 256midi ports x 16ch.
> ...



Nice!
that was the whole reason I was trying out Cubase. logic + VEP with huge templates is not good at all.


also, logic should also come up with the new redmatica sampler. and in the future , with a new camel synth. 

redmatica is now inside main stage
http://createdigitalmusic.com/2015/02/a ... -software/
so hopefully a new redesign sampler will be in logic. 
its hard for apple to miss the advantages of having a sampler like kontakt that has 3rd party developers who can code in it and maybe also have the chance to somehow charge them ;- )


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 15, 2015)

[quote="gsilbers @ Mon Jun 15, 2015 6:15 logic + VEP with huge templates is not good at all. [/quote]

It is if you have a powerful enough rig to run what you want to run and you know how to set it up efficiently.

My Logic Pro-VE Pro functions beautifully and everyone who comes to my studio agrees.


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## vewilya (May 11, 2016)

charlieclouser said:


> Okay, now we're talking. This is HUGE for VEPro users. Hopefully VSL will get right on that and roll out an update in a timely manner....


Hey Charlie. Great respect for your work! Interesting discussion as well. It's almost a year now and there's no AU3 port for Vepro5... This would be very welcome indeed. 
Greetings Urs


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## samphony (May 11, 2016)

vewilya said:


> Hey Charlie. Great respect for your work! Interesting discussion as well. It's almost a year now and there's no AU3 port for Vepro5... This would be very welcome indeed.
> Greetings Urs


VSL is working on that. Users will have to upgrade to 10.11.x and later. AFAIK


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## vewilya (May 11, 2016)

samphony said:


> VSL is working on that. Users will have to upgrade to 10.11.x and later. AFAIK


I read that on the VSL forums. It's been a while now though and I'm wondering if we'll see an update soon?!? I think this is greatly needed also for Logic in competition with other DAWS like Cubase (!!) and DP.


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## samphony (May 11, 2016)

vewilya said:


> I read that on the VSL forums. It's been a while now though and I'm wondering if we'll see an update soon?!? I think this is greatly needed also for Logic in competition with other DAWS like Cubase (!!) and DP.



I don't mind if they need time to make long term tests. I'm guessing but due to logics hybrid engine (equivalent to Cubendos AG2) a multiport version might cause new performance issues that need to get solved first!


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## URL (May 11, 2016)

I switch to Cubase from Logic X and could not be happier


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## vewilya (May 11, 2016)

Yeah you're probably right. It's just frustrating with a big template. It's so easy in DP9 for example. Very powerful. So I get impatient. But you're right. I hope it'll be worth the wait. Because I do love my Logic. Let's see...


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## whinecellar (May 11, 2016)

Yeah, I'd have to agree that with few exceptions in my 23 years on Logic, the current level of inconsistent flakiness is at an all-time high. Tools randomly changing when hitting play. Track icons randomly changing. Graphics glitches and that maddeningly slow GUI. The removal of long-used conventions like the customizable color palette & other colors. The ridiculously large fonts & inability to unlink the audio bin window. Soloing folders includes content from OTHER folders. Bounce in place includes audio from non-selected regions. Piano roll windows not showing selected region content. I could go on.

I'm working on a project right now that has me recalling older sessions in Logic 9, and going back to that is a breath of fresh air: the GUI is literally instant even on a 4k display. Project management in the audio bin is FAR easier to use. It just feels far more streamlined and efficient. For whatever bugs it had (very few in my daily use), they were all avoidable and consistent.

Honestly I still adore Logic for the most part, and when it works, it is like a magnificent vintage BMW. But when it acts up, well, it's like a vintage BMW. I've never been more tempted to check out the competition, except I don't have time to learn it. Then again, I've given serious thought to going back to 9.1.8 and freezing my rig for a while...


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## Ashermusic (May 11, 2016)

whinecellar said:


> Yeah, I'd have to agree that with few exceptions in my 23 years on Logic, the current level of inconsistent flakiness is at an all-time high. Tools randomly changing when hitting play. Track icons randomly changing. .



Not seeing that stuff here.


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## whinecellar (May 11, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> Not seeing that stuff here.



Jay, you should just copy & paste that text by default in these threads 

Yes, obviously not everyone is seeing this stuff, but a lot of people are. I keep hoping for improvements, especially since I've been in contact with the dev team on these issues. The frustrating thing is I'm *not* a newbie; as a 23-year veteran who knows my way deep into the app, I know how to set up & maintain it. I've done tons of troubleshooting, and these are all confirmed issues. The problem is that they don't happen for everyone. So here we are...


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## Ashermusic (May 11, 2016)

whinecellar said:


> Jay, you should just copy & paste that text by default in these threads
> 
> Yes, obviously not everyone is seeing this stuff, but a lot of people are. I keep hoping for improvements, especially since I've been in contact with the dev team on these issues. The frustrating thing is I'm *not* a newbie; as a 23-year veteran who knows my way deep into the app, I know how to set up & maintain it. I've done tons of troubleshooting, and these are all confirmed issues. The problem is that they don't happen for everyone. So here we are...



I am on the Logic Pro Help forum a lot, which unlike this place, has lots and lots of them and while some people do have issues of course, including me with the score editor links, I am not seeing reports of "Tools randomly changing when hitting play. Track icons randomly changing."

So I can only conclude that there are some system specific problems going on for you, because I know you know what you are doing with Logic.


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## kunst91 (May 11, 2016)

I personally don't understand all the hubbub about logic 9. Recent updates to X have made for a far smoother and more flexible work experience than any of my time on 9


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## whinecellar (May 11, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> I am not seeing reports of "Tools randomly changing when hitting play. Track icons randomly changing."
> 
> So I can only conclude that there are some system specific problems going on for you, because I know you know what you are doing with Logic.



Indeed, it's troubling stuff, and thankfully not too common - but it has been pretty well reported from what I've heard. I'm just one of the unlucky ones I suppose


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## Baron Greuner (May 11, 2016)

I think you've been unlucky. Logic X seems a lot more stable to me than 9.


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## vewilya (May 11, 2016)

I think a lot of people reported all kinds of stuff to Apple concerning Logic X bugs, etc. 
I do hope they're still interested in keeping this thing alive and competitive. The last couple of upgrades were in the right direction but a lot of bugs are still happening. As in all other DAWs I guess. But with MOTU and Steinberg you just get a different vibe I guess. They're pushing their software forward. With improving old stuff and adding lots of new features. Maybe even too many feats and God knows whether we need those. It shouldn't compromise stability and general workflow... 
Logic folks are great I think. Very knowledgeable and helpful. They make stuff work somehow despite all bugs and maladies going on. I think this forum proves that. Not sure about Apple though... I mean the makeover of some plugins GUI left me puzzled a bit. You open up distortion 1, 2 and Expander and you've got 3 different skin sets going on. I mean they all work great, it just feels weird to me that they didn't unify the thing as they would anywhere else. (though I think we had the same kind of icon constipation going on with iOS 8 (??) I remember vaguely).
Well anyway. Still in love with this DAW. Can't seem to abandon it. Hoping for the best...
Greetings to you all.
U


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## A3D2 (May 11, 2016)

whinecellar said:


> Yeah, I'd have to agree that with few exceptions in my 23 years on Logic, the current level of inconsistent flakiness is at an all-time high. Tools randomly changing when hitting play. Track icons randomly changing. Graphics glitches and that maddeningly slow GUI. The removal of long-used conventions like the customizable color palette & other colors. The ridiculously large fonts & inability to unlink the audio bin window. Soloing folders includes content from OTHER folders. Bounce in place includes audio from non-selected regions. Piano roll windows not showing selected region content. I could go on.
> 
> I'm working on a project right now that has me recalling older sessions in Logic 9, and going back to that is a breath of fresh air: the GUI is literally instant even on a 4k display. Project management in the audio bin is FAR easier to use. It just feels far more streamlined and efficient. For whatever bugs it had (very few in my daily use), they were all avoidable and consistent.
> 
> Honestly I still adore Logic for the most part, and when it works, it is like a magnificent vintage BMW. But when it acts up, well, it's like a vintage BMW. I've never been more tempted to check out the competition, except I don't have time to learn it. Then again, I've given serious thought to going back to 9.1.8 and freezing my rig for a while...


@whinecellar I totally understand you. I'm very used to work with Logic as well, and I can work very very quickly in Logic 9 and I will continue to use it until maybe a new more stable (or more revolutionary improved) of Logic is released in the future. L9 is just so stable on my system and I can continue to use it with new recent plugins etc, so why bother upgrading. As long as it sounds great and works fine, I'm set . A painter also doesn't buy new canvasses when he still has old ones just because newer ones are released. Sometimes sticking to what you know and 'works for you' can help you to be more productive.


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## Matt Riley (May 11, 2016)

whinecellar said:


> Soloing folders includes content from OTHER folders


You are talking about folder tracks stacks right? This happened to me too. If you flatten all your stacks and then create them again, this problem should go away.

For the other issues, have you tried rebuilding your template importing from the file browser?


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## robharvey (May 11, 2016)

A3D2 said:


> @whinecellar I totally understand you. I'm very used to work with Logic as well, and I can work very very quickly in Logic 9 and I will continue to use it until maybe a new more stable (or more revolutionary improved) of Logic is released in the future. L9 is just so stable on my system and I can continue to use it with new recent plugins etc, so why bother upgrading. As long as it sounds great and works fine, I'm set . A painter also doesn't buy new canvasses when he still has old ones just because newer ones are released. Sometimes sticking to what you know and 'works for you' can help you to be more productive.




I think there is merit in what you're saying. What with logic 9 running i 64-bit mode you probably won't need to upgrade. Especially if you aren't using stock plugins!

I've been running logic 10 for a while now and love it. What made me upgrade was I had a bit of spare cash and wanted to try it. Ended up keeping it.


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## Ashermusic (May 11, 2016)

A3D2 said:


> @whinecellar I totally understand you. I'm very used to work with Logic as well, and I can work very very quickly in Logic 9 and I will continue to use it until maybe a new more stable (or more revolutionary improved) of Logic is released in the future. L9 is just so stable on my system and I can continue to use it with new recent plugins etc, so why bother upgrading. As long as it sounds great and works fine, I'm set . A painter also doesn't buy new canvasses when he still has old ones just because newer ones are released. Sometimes sticking to what you know and 'works for you' can help you to be more productive.



But LP X has so many workflow enhancements that are so helpful like faster loading, track stacks, VCA groups, the ability to move multiple tracks in the track list instead of one at a time, better core distribution, not to mention the additions of Alchemy, Drummer, Drum Machine Designer, better looking retina ready plug-ins, improvements to the Compressor, B3, electric piano instruments et al.

When I go back to LP 9 now, I really miss all that.


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## A3D2 (May 11, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> But LP X has so many workflow enhancements that are so helpful like faster loading, track stacks, VCA groups, the ability to move multiple tracks in the track list instead of one at a time, better core distribution, not to mention the additions of Alchemy, Drummer, Drum Machine Designer, better looking retina ready plug-ins, improvements to the Compressor, B3, electric piano instruments et al.
> 
> When I go back to LP 9 now, I really miss all that.


@Ashermusic I understand that it might be difficult to go back once you've gotten used to Logic X, I would probably also have gotten used to it if I had bought it. And those features you mention do sound interesting, but they are not crucial to me: especially the retina visuals and drummer are just things that wouldn't be much of a benefit to me. Also the upgrades to the stock plugins don't really matter for me because I mostly use external plugins. The workflow enhancements would be handy though, but I have found ways that work for me in L9 so that I don't 'really' need these enhancements to be able to work well. It all has do to do with what you're used to I guess. Once you know what a program can do and what it cannot, you find your ways to deal with it's limitations.

To give you guys an extreme example of a guy who also sticks to the composing 'canvas' he knows:
Fatboy Slim most of the time (at least that is what I've read) still uses an Atari 520ST to compose music in his studio


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## Ashermusic (May 11, 2016)

Fair enough, I understand that reasoning.


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## whinecellar (May 11, 2016)

Matt Riley said:


> You are talking about folder tracks stacks right? This happened to me too. If you flatten all your stacks and then create them again, this problem should go away.



No, I'm talking about the older actual folders. There are several bugs related to using those, which is a shame as they're still ideal for navigating large templates - even more so than track stacks.



Matt Riley said:


> For the other issues, have you tried rebuilding your template importing from the file browser?



I actually built a brand new template completely from scratch in Logic X after a fresh install of everything - being very careful to keep it as basic as possible and avoid anything likely to cause corruption as in past versions (environment tweaks, lots of auxes, crazy routing, etc.). All that's in it are a bunch of multitimbral VE Pro plugins and a handful of EXS instruments. I also started with fresh prefs too, so it's as clean as it gets... and I've seen these issues on other sessions, brand new songs, etc.


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## dgburns (May 11, 2016)

whinecellar said:


> Yeah, I'd have to agree that with few exceptions in my 23 years on Logic, the current level of inconsistent flakiness is at an all-time high. Tools randomly changing when hitting play. Track icons randomly changing. Graphics glitches and that maddeningly slow GUI. The removal of long-used conventions like the customizable color palette & other colors. The ridiculously large fonts & inability to unlink the audio bin window. Soloing folders includes content from OTHER folders. Bounce in place includes audio from non-selected regions. Piano roll windows not showing selected region content. I could go on.
> 
> I'm working on a project right now that has me recalling older sessions in Logic 9, and going back to that is a breath of fresh air: the GUI is literally instant even on a 4k display. Project management in the audio bin is FAR easier to use. It just feels far more streamlined and efficient. For whatever bugs it had (very few in my daily use), they were all avoidable and consistent.
> 
> Honestly I still adore Logic for the most part, and when it works, it is like a magnificent vintage BMW. But when it acts up, well, it's like a vintage BMW. I've never been more tempted to check out the competition, except I don't have time to learn it. Then again, I've given serious thought to going back to 9.1.8 and freezing my rig for a while...



we tend to see things the same way.I was taken back alot when X came out.After a year of intensive work though,I'm a bit over the shock.The current version with the current mac os is about as good as LPX has been for me.I've put out an alarming amount of music over the year,and LPX,under the way I work,and in the template I set up,has not let me down for more then the odd niggle ,mostly due to the mac needing a restart,yada yada yada ....

i've done my fair share of lpx bashing,but I also need to come clean and say quite a few times It was also user error,that is MY ERROR.(yup,heard that right)

Having gone back into L9 it just seems old now.I've gotten used to the (my hacked) colours and I'll write in LPX before I'll go to anything else,like Cubase ,because it's just something I know well under stress / crunch time etc.

As I see it,it was a bit shaky outof the gate,but it's now pretty good,and likely only going to get better.Just wish sound diver was still part of it.

I've run into times when I needed to flush the prefs,so What I've done is trashed the prefs,re-written new ones,placed them somewhere safe,and just re-insert those if I suspect the prefs are corrupt.Saves me having to re enter the i/o labels all over again.

LPX/mac/interface/user/music are so variable it's hard to locate what might be ailing another fellow user.Just wish everyone's ride was as good as mine.


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## charlieclouser (May 11, 2016)

For what it's worth, I am strapped to a bullet at the moment with two shows - more than an hour a week of score to deliver, and LPX 10.2.2 is just cruising along. The only crash I had was from some crazy freeware grain-stretching plugin a few weeks back, and I did go under the hood and change some of the font sizes and colors, so it looks great and readable on my 32" 4k display. I'm just flying on this rig now. No weird bounce issues that others have had, etc. I am also working from freshly-built-from-scratch templates most of the time, but I do need to load 2-year-old Logic v9 songs and do a "Save As" and modify them for use in this year's series - and no problems whatsoever (so far). 

All on one Mac Pro cylinder, no VEPro, mostly EXS but maybe 16 Kontakt's per song sometimes. On my all-SSD rig songs load in a few seconds. Loving it.


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## samphony (May 12, 2016)

I'm in the same situation as @charlieclouser its cruising. I still use old school folders for arrangements variations etc. no VEPRO at the moment. I tend to convert most sample libs to exs and then alchemy.


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## kunst91 (May 12, 2016)

Im on a quad core trashcan, 64 GB RAM running LPX with 128+ EXS, Kontakts, u-he, NI, etc. with logic stock compressors, eq, distortion, etc.; ton of fab filter, sound toys, valhalla plus Live running in rewire for loops and sample mangling. One machine, No VEP. Haven't had a single crash in the 8 months since I've been working this way.

I actually find that the high clock speed of the quad core works really well for me. Although I may upgrade down the line to the E5-1660 which has 6 cores at 3.7 (equivalent to the clock speed of the stock quad core). Logic 10.2.2/trashcan is such a smooth combo


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## samphony (May 12, 2016)

kunst91 said:


> Im on a quad core trashcan, 64 GB RAM running LPX with 128+ EXS, Kontakts, u-he, NI, etc. with logic stock compressors, eq, distortion, etc.; ton of fab filter, sound toys, valhalla plus Live running in rewire for loops and sample mangling. One machine, No VEP. Haven't had a single crash in the 8 months since I've been working this way.
> 
> I actually find that the high clock speed of the quad core works really well for me. Although I may upgrade down the line to the E5-1660 which has 6 cores at 3.7 (equivalent to the clock speed of the stock quad core). Logic 10.2.2/trashcan is such a smooth combo



Why not upgrade to the 3.0 10core?


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## kunst91 (May 12, 2016)

samphony said:


> Why not upgrade to the 3.0 10core?



Yeah I've thought of that too. Any CPU upgrade will be way down the line as I can't afford it right now. I really like the 3.7 clock speed, and the thought of that plus a couple extra cores is pretty sweet


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## vewilya (May 12, 2016)

samphony said:


> I'm in the same situation as @charlieclouser its cruising. I still use old school folders for arrangements variations etc. no VEPRO at the moment. I tend to convert most sample libs to exs and then alchemy.


How do convert sample libs to EXS24? Don't expect you to answer this here in this thread. Maybe there's a link that you could point me to. Been looking for some insight on this...


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## samphony (May 12, 2016)

vewilya said:


> How do convert sample libs to EXS24? Don't expect you to answer this here in this thread. Maybe there's a link that you could point me to. Been looking for some insight on this...


No worries. I. Don't use a converter. I just resample interesting stuff. It might not sound like the raw material from the libs but more like my own. I like to create my own samples. I'm also not talking about converting say BML sable or something that is heavily scripted. For me it's about randomness and happy accidents that keep me excited not holding that one note and make it the exact same patch and sound I had in kontakt from let's say heaviocity etc


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## kunst91 (May 12, 2016)

vewilya said:


> How do convert sample libs to EXS24? Don't expect you to answer this here in this thread. Maybe there's a link that you could point me to. Been looking for some insight on this...



For unprotected kontakt libraries I do what Charlie does--delete groups I don't need and resave patch and samples, then create an exs instrument from those raw wav files. For protected kontakt player stuff and heavily scripted libraries I don't really touch those as that's quite a deep rabbit hole, unless it's a simple hit or pad sound (DM-307 was pretty simple to convert as most of those sounds are just single hits with no RR). These days I haven't been doing much real orchestral simulation anyway so that's not a big deal.

I resample stuff too, but that's situational--"Oh that's a cool sound, let me save that for later"

Charlie has probably posted about this at greater depth somewhere on the inter webs


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## vewilya (May 12, 2016)

Thanks guys. Much appreciated... U


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## IFM (May 12, 2016)

charlieclouser said:


> For what it's worth, I am strapped to a bullet at the moment with two shows - more than an hour a week of score to deliver, and LPX 10.2.2 is just cruising along. The only crash I had was from some crazy freeware grain-stretching plugin a few weeks back, and I did go under the hood and change some of the font sizes and colors, so it looks great and readable on my 32" 4k display. I'm just flying on this rig now. No weird bounce issues that others have had, etc. I am also working from freshly-built-from-scratch templates most of the time, but I do need to load 2-year-old Logic v9 songs and do a "Save As" and modify them for use in this year's series - and no problems whatsoever (so far).
> 
> All on one Mac Pro cylinder, no VEPro, mostly EXS but maybe 16 Kontakt's per song sometimes. On my all-SSD rig songs load in a few seconds. Loving it.



Charlie you rock. I've been on C8.5 for a while after years of LPX and think that I'll go back to LPX. I really miss the plugins and although I like Midi editing in C8 better I can't have as large of a template in C8 as I can in LPX now that Ram is not my limiting factor.


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## samphony (May 12, 2016)

IFM said:


> Charlie you rock. I've been on C8.5 for a while after years of LPX and think that I'll go back to LPX. I really miss the plugins and although I like Midi editing in C8 better I can't have as large of a template in C8 as I can in LPX now that Ram is not my limiting factor.



Imagine once the logic team add workflow enhancements like track management, deactivate tracks. It only can get better.


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## jonathanwright (May 13, 2016)

After a few years on Cubase I was reintroduced to Logic last year for a project. Since then I've found myself choosing to use it on new projects more and more, I find it extremely stable.


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## garyhiebner (May 13, 2016)

Ah! the good ole Logic and Cubase debate! Which one will win?

I've just started experimenting with Cubase, and man it has some great features that are winning over Logic. Like its extra MIDI editing capabilities and VST Expression maps. Tough one.


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## A3D2 (May 13, 2016)

In the end, which DAW you use to compose doesn't matter: it also doesn't matter which version it is.
If it works for you, it works. And if it doesn't, you should consider another option. It's as simple as that.
In the end it's the music that counts, the DAW is just a means: you can have the best DAW ever and write bad music . And update-wise my philosophy personally is: 'if it isn't broke, don't try to fix it', but I can understand people update when you need some new features that can improve your workflow . Just don't do it in the middle of a project


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## URL (May 13, 2016)

I'm been using Logic for many years and its a really fantastic daw and stable, I moved to Cubase and the short time I have used Cubase it seems very stable on OS X Yosemite. I must say I'm impressed by Cubase in midi editing and connected to Vep5 midi and audio routing it works very well. It feels like Cubase ned a little more "horse power" in action?


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## Ashermusic (May 13, 2016)

garyhiebner said:


> Ah! the good ole Logic and Cubase debate! Which one will win?
> 
> I've just started experimenting with Cubase, and man it has some great features that are winning over Logic. Like its extra MIDI editing capabilities and VST Expression maps. Tough one.



Not me. I commented on what Apple did with Logic Pro after acquiring it from a marketing standpoint. I don't care for DAW wars. I use Logic mostly because I have since 1.0 and Notator, its antecedent, before that and know it super well. If I were starting from scratch today, I don't know, I would have to spend time with power users of all of them and decide.


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## pdub (May 13, 2016)

LPX here and working great. I abandoned Cubase after 6.5. They ruined the best DAW mixer in my opinion with 7.0 I've thought about going back but after the 8.5 demo I still feel that way. I've recently moved to Studio One 3 for mixing which I prefer over Logic. 

I use Logic for composing though. I find it very stable, flexible and creative. I do get much better performance with Logic on big VI sessions by using VEP on the same machine.


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## Vik (May 14, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> I use Logic mostly because I have since 1.0 and Notator, its antecedent, before that and know it super well.


Me too. But if I would have started today, I would have started with Cubase - because it seems that Apple isn't even trying to compete with Steinberg (or other companies) in the areas that are important to me - and haven't been doing that for a long time.


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## Ashermusic (May 14, 2016)

Understandable. Five months ago I sat down with a Cubase user and he showed me how he works with it. I saw things I really like and things I do not. But the thing is, once you have used one DAW for a long time it trains you to think the way it thinks. 

If I could go back in time and have to choose between the current versions of Logic, Cubase, and DP, which would I choose? Not sure.


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## Vik (May 14, 2016)

Steinberg/Cubase has many pros compared with Apple/Logic (for work with VI instruments/composing/notation). Which pros does Apple/Logic have in this context?


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## jonathanwright (May 14, 2016)

Of course the flip side is in a couple of years time the situation could be reversed if either company decides on a change of direction.


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## Ashermusic (May 14, 2016)

Vik said:


> Steinberg/Cubase has many pros compared with Apple/Logic (for work with VI instruments/composing/notation). Which pros does Apple/Logic have in this context?



I could cite them all but then we get into a DAW war that goes nowhere. So I will pass, thanks. 

Logic users know what they like and do not like about it as do Cubase users as do DP users and I know lots of people who have gone from one to the other. Some have stayed with the new choice while others have returned to their original choice. 

In the end it is less about the choice and more about the user's skills with it.


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## Saxer (May 15, 2016)

Vik said:


> Steinberg/Cubase has many pros compared with Apple/Logic (for work with VI instruments/composing/notation). Which pros does Apple/Logic have in this context?


For me mainly it's 'my' workflow. A feature list doesn't mean anything to me. In Logic I can have screen sets where all windows I need are permanently open. I rarely have to open or close any windows (exept plugins). The repeating window open/close movement just to have a look into editors makes any hardcore Logic user mad! If I need another window configuration I change the screen set. That's one of the things new Logic users don't have because you have to create your own screen sets yourself following your needs. But if you are a long time user it's your home. Same with key commands. There are about 1500 key commands in Logic and most of them are not assigned to keys. So you assign them when you need them. Once a year I go through and find new ideas for my workflow. Some are integrated forever and some get lost. Lots of things of Cubases Logical editor or other sub-windows can be done by key commands. And I do all my notation in Logic, from lead sheet to big band and orchestra. Maybe a change to Cubase will be interesting when Steinbergs new notation program will be out and integrated into Cubase. But until then I'll probably stay with Logic.


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## Vik (May 15, 2016)

Saxer said:


> A feature list doesn't mean anything to me. In Logic I can have screen sets where all windows I need are permanently open.


Hi Saxer, 
for many users features (or even one single feature one DAW has which another DAW hasn't) matter... and actually, isn't that what you also say, that Logic's screen set features makes a difference for you?


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## Saxer (May 15, 2016)

Vik said:


> Hi Saxer,
> for many users features (or even one single feature one DAW has which another DAW hasn't) matter... and actually, isn't that what you also say, that Logic's screen set features makes a difference for you?


Ok... what I tried to say was that the number of features doesn't necessarily mean a quality difference. It's not about making countable points in a ranking system. If somebody says: "My wife can run faster than yours" it doesn't mean you have to get divorced as soon as possible.


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## Vik (May 16, 2016)

I certainly agree about the wife thing.  But apart from the obvious things we need from our music software (stability/performance, good workflow... and certainly that it doesn't take out focus away from music itself), features/functions are IMO really important. With Logic you can risk playing three notes and only two of them are shown in score unless you manually edit something. Or that simple triads are displayed with the wrong accidentals so you have to edit them manually to give them the normal visual look of a triad. Overlapping notes are also, as a default, looking confusing/wrong in score. 

And it's not important to me whether these issues are seen as "bugs" or "lacking features/functionality", but the bottom line for me is that there are dozens of improvements which could have been implemented in Logic over the last years which I know would help me focus more on the musicality of what I work on instead of editing things to get things right. 

Therefore I think Apple is making a major mistake in terms of... which areas within Logic that is given the most love and attention from them. Nowadays it seems to be more about focusing on helping those who don't have a lot music skills then to help those who have. I think both these groups are important, but I have a feeling that Apple, as a corporation, things that "we have provided the tools, now it's up to you - create whatever kind of music you want with them - there's nothing more we can do (except bugfixes)". 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I can think of dozens, if not hundreds of minor and major changes in Logic which would have contributed to a better.... end result; better compositions, more people diving into the actual musical aspects of the song they're working instead of a slightly metter mix; more touching moments in those who listen to what we create. 

And i believe all this even if I know that one can compose great music with a pencil and some paper, simply because... since we, after all, actually create music with DAWs and VIs and sometimes notation, those tools should be as brilliant as possible - from a _musical_ perspective.


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## Saxer (May 16, 2016)

Ok, I can't follow your 'downs' in Logics score. And the last updates had 'pro'-features only. I don't know if you are using Logic and are up to date with updates and how to work with notation etc...
I don't want to go into a 'which one is better' battle. I just wanted to show why I use it and that there are good reasons to do it. And I would never be one of the last defenders of Apple politics and whatever. There's always a big wish list and no App is perfect. But I have Logic, Cubase, Ableton, Reaper and more on my machine and I'm using Logic for good reasons.
There was a big change between Logic 7 and 8. Logic 7 was a real pro application. It was harder to start as a beginner but much more individual in creating your workflow. From Logic 8 they implemented an easier beginner modus and it looked more like Cubase. If you use Logic like Cubase (opening/closing windows all the time) Logic will never be the "better Cubase". But if you use Logic with it's pro workflow features it will be the better Logic.


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## Vik (May 16, 2016)

Saxer said:


> Ok, I can't follow your 'downs' in Logics score. And the last updates had 'pro'-features only. I don't know if you are using Logic and are up to date with updates and how to work with notation etc...


I'd humbly say that I probably know Logic better than 99% of the other Logic users out there.  But for me it isn't mainly about "pro" vs "amateur" features, because most of the many features and functions I miss in Logic as a pro would have gotten a very warm welcome from noobs and amateurs if implemented. Maybe it's even the best DAW out there for my needs, because in spite of what Steinberg is doing, Cubase also have some serious workflow stoppers on board (eg the need to open/close windows a lot). I only wish Apple - with their expertise in workflow - would at least try to compete with what Steinberg is doing with notation (new app being presented tomorrow), with CC automation, with expression mapping and so on. So far, it looks as if they aren't even trying, and the Artculation ID protocol, which has been around since the Logic 9 days, certainly hasn't been a priority from what I can see. Logic may be more elegant that Cubase, workflow wise, but Steinberg is working harder on making a good solution for composers, especially those of us who often need notation.

I'm sure Apple is working in Logic 11, I'm just not as optimistic about Logic's development due to what seems like a major difference between Apple's priorities for Logic so far - and mine. I don't need more synth sounds or loops or EQs or compressors. And the world in general seems to need more great compositions more than it needs


spikescott said:


> I'm getting extremely frustrated with Logic Pro X. As a a busy professional media composer, I have deadlines to hit. I don't need buggy tools. They interrupt workflow and cause much annoyance. For the most part, I love Logic and have been using versions of it since the early days of Emagic.
> 
> Right now though, it's causing a great deal of distress. For the first time I'm seriously looking around at other DAWs, even though I know the learning curve will be vast.
> 
> Anybody else in a similar situ? If so, have you made the jump and to what?


I'm in the same situation, and have been thinking of other possible DAWs since the release of Logic X – Cubase in particular – but haven't jumped ship yet. Have you (I'm asking because your post is from last year)?


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## Ashermusic (May 16, 2016)

Bear in mind Vik that people who want to do the kind of orchestral reproduction many of us here do is a tiny part of people who use DAWs like Logic. There are _way_ many more doing pop, hip hop, and EDM. So for instance Drummer and Alchemy being added pleases many more users than the inclusion of Articulation IDs.

When I teach my Logic Pro X for Songwriters class at the Songwriting School of Los Angeles and the Apple Certified classes at Garnish Music Productions and I show them Drummer and Machine Drum Designer, they go crazy with excitement. If I mention sul ponticello, they look at me like I am speaking Swahili.


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## samphony (May 16, 2016)

Vik said:


> I'd humbly say that I probably know Logic better than 99% of the other Logic users out there.  But for me it isn't mainly about "pro" vs "amateur" features, because most of the many features and functions I miss in Logic as a pro would have gotten a very warm welcome from noobs and amateurs if implemented. Maybe it's even the best DAW out there for my needs, because in spite of what Steinberg is doing, Cubase also have some serious workflow stoppers on board (eg the need to open/close windows a lot). I only wish Apple - with their expertise in workflow - would at least try to compete with what Steinberg is doing with notation (new app being presented tomorrow), with CC automation, with expression mapping and so on. So far, it looks as if they aren't even trying, and the Artculation ID protocol, which has been around since the Logic 9 days, certainly hasn't been a priority from what I can see. Logic may be more elegant that Cubase, workflow wise, but Steinberg is working harder on making a good solution for composers, especially those of us who often need notation.
> 
> I'm sure Apple is working in Logic 11, I'm just not as optimistic about Logic's development due to what seems like a major difference between Apple's priorities for Logic so far - and mine. I don't need more synth sounds or loops or EQs or compressors. And the world in general seems to need more great compositions more than it needs
> 
> I'm in the same situation, and have been thinking of other possible DAWs since the release of Logic X – Cubase in particular – but haven't jumped ship yet. Have you (I'm asking because your post is from last year)?



The only thing I can say is that they are taking Logic (audio music applications) very serious. Of course the minority needs classical composition feature sets in logic. But from my experience trying to jump ship to a new DAW from one that you know inside out isn't done very easily.


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## Vik (May 16, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> Bear in mind Vik that people who want to do the kind of orchestral reproduction many of us here do is a tiny part of people who use DAWs like Logic.


I know, and that's exactly what I like about Steinberg - that they keep focus on making a good score editor, and implemented eg Expression Maps a long time ago *in spite of* the fact that most users don't ask for such functionality. 

If Yahama can afford prioritising such functionality, Apple can too. If they want to.


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## Vik (May 16, 2016)

samphony said:


> The only thing I can say is that they are taking Logic (audio music applications) very serious.


Hi Samphony, I'm sure you are right - but that's not actually what I'm worried about. 
My concern is about which part of the music making crowd/business they are serious about. 



> Of course the minority needs classical composition feature sets in logic.


Also true, but most of the features I miss in Logic would be at least as welcome for those who only occasionally need to work on a string track, and for those who aren't "pro" enough to want complicated stuff - but who occasionally need to print out a melody or some simple chords without too much hassle.The real "conflict", IMO, isn't between pros and amateurs.


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## Vik (May 17, 2016)

Vik said:


> I don't need more synth sounds or loops or EQs or compressors. And the world in general seems to need more great compositions more than it needs


Oops, that sentence was supposed to end with "better sounding mixes". Don't know what happened.


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## samphony (May 17, 2016)

Vik said:


> Hi Samphony, I'm sure you are right - but that's not actually what I'm worried about.
> My concern is about which part of the music making crowd/business they are serious about.
> 
> 
> Also true, but most of the features I miss in Logic would be at least as welcome for those who only occasionally need to work on a string track, and for those who aren't "pro" enough to want complicated stuff - but who occasionally need to print out a melody or some simple chords without too much hassle.The real "conflict", IMO, isn't between pros and amateurs.



If time allows I invest some energy to create mockups of features the logic team could consider to implement and send them directly. If they will implement these enhancements is written on another wall.


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## AlexRuger (May 17, 2016)

charlieclouser said:


> In Logic, you can assign a single key command to "toggle mute", but in Cubase it's one key to mute, and another to unmute. Super annoying. I was able to make a Logical Preset that accomplished toggle mute from a single key, but... hassle.



There's a mute/unmute command, both for tracks and audio/midi regions. This is a non-issue, you just found the wrong command.



charlieclouser said:


> Logic's "object solo" in the Arrange window - can't live without it.



I've always felt that this is Logic's workaround to not having a "select track based on edit selection." If you set this up in Preferences, whenever you click an audio region or midi region or whatnot, that track will now be selected, so your workflow won't change (in both Logic and Cubase, you would select a region and then solo, that's it).

I can't stand working in Logic for that reason...I select a midi region on track A and expect that track to be selected, but when I hit the "solo track" key command, it solos track B (or C, or D, or E...). Madness!



charlieclouser said:


> I do like some of the stuff in Cubase, but as I set out to replicate my 200+ EXS template from Logic over in Cubase / Kontakt / VEPro I realized that it took so many more clicks, so much more setup, so many more files to save (VEP frames, Kontakt multis, etc.) just to get to the same place I was at in my twelve-year-old Logic template that loads from a single document... I dunno.



I've helped a lot of composers get up and running with Cubase, so if you supply the six-pack I'll happily come by and help iron out some of these issues!

EDIT: just realized you posted that a year ago. But the offer still stands!


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## charlieclouser (May 17, 2016)

AlexRuger - I should explain how I use Logic's "object solo" or "solo regions" function to print stems and why I love it so much. When I'm working on tv stuff I don't bother booting up the ProTools stem recorder - instead I just bounce inside Logic. Why? Because I am always deciding on the fly what tracks / sounds will go to what stem. Otherwise I'd wind up with many cues having stuff only on two out of eight stems, and those two stems would be crowded with sounds that they might want to separate on the stage. 

I don't do orchestral simulation, so it makes no sense for me to have "strings low" - "strings high" or whatever. For tv I print anywhere from three to eight stems, and I decide on a per-cue basis what goes where to give them the most flexibility on the stage from a music editing and mixing standpoint. Why put that one bowed cymbal scrape all bundled in with all the percussion when there's a perfectly good empty piano stem next to it? You know they're going to call me from the stage and say, "could you separate out that one bowed cymbal zinger for us?" 

So, if I want to decide on the fly to move a single instrument from one stem to another, I've got to re-assign the output bussing on that instrument's track, AND move its sends from DRMverb-front, DRMverb-rear, DRMdlay-front, and DRMdlay-rear over to the corresponding sends for the effects that are routed to the stem sub master for whatever stem I'm moving it to. That's five trips to the pop-up menu per thing I want to move. (Maybe Cubase has a "send routing follows output routing" feature but I doubt it - how would that even work?). So what I do when I want to decide what sounds go on what stem is to assign colors to the regions in the Arrange window. Drums are red, Keys are green, Orchs are blue. Then when it's time to print the drum stem, I select a red object, hit my command key for "select equal-colored objects" (or just lassoo the damn things), hit "object solo" and bounce the stereo output. Now only those objects will play, but the mixer and all effects are all active - so no effect gets skipped because it's not been routed correctly. Yes, that means I have to bounce the cue multiple times (once for the mix and once for each stem) but this is still quicker and fewer clicks than re-routing everything all the time.

And the added benefit of doing it this way is that I am forced to listen to each stem bounce all by itself. I catch so many little errors that I would never have heard if I was always listening to the composite mix. I also catch stuff like, "oh, I should move that bowed cymbal, there's an incoming drum part overlapping" and then I can look at my pretty-colored regions and think, "hey, there's nothing green playing right then, let me just re-color that bowed cymbal green and re-do the bounce." Now the bowed cymbal is all by itself in the middle of some empty space on the Keys stem.

Since my scores are just a murky smorgasbord of random sounds, the mixers don't care if the piano is on the drums stem if there's no drums on that cue - they'd prefer things to be as separated as possible without going to a ridiculous number of stems. If I wanted to obey strict stem rules I'd have to deliver 16 stems (at least) and most of the time 3/4 of them would be empty. Ain't nobody got time for that!

Now, on movies, I do give them tons of stems with more strict routing rules, but for tv it's grab-n-go and this seems to work.

So, object / region solo is crucial to how I work. Does Cubase even have something like this? Where only selected regions will play (without muting unwanted regions, because I use that to keep stuff that I don't want to hear "on hand" without deleting it)? Object solo is sort of a second level of region muting, where you can still use region muting to build an arrangement and then go to the second level of muting (object solo) where you can pick a subset of non-muted regions and only those will play - but the whole mixer and all effects and plugins are active.


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## AlexRuger (May 17, 2016)

Right, gotcha. A composer I do some additional writing for (he works in Logic, so on that gig so do I) does something similar: stems are printed by using the object solo, grouped by color. Totally see where you're coming from. It's a sweet feature that I wish other DAWs would adopt.

No, Cubase wouldn't work with that precise workflow, as it doesn't have an object solo feature. There are a number of ways you could print stems just as quickly (while retaining send fx and all that), but it probably isn't worth the time investment/workflow change unless there's a few other killer features that entice you over to Cubase, which doesn't sound like is the case.


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## Vision (May 17, 2016)

charlieclouser said:


> For what it's worth, I am strapped to a bullet at the moment with two shows - more than an hour a week of score to deliver, and LPX 10.2.2 is just cruising along.
> 
> All on one Mac Pro cylinder, no VEPro, mostly EXS but maybe 16 Kontakt's per song sometimes. On my all-SSD rig songs load in a few seconds. Loving it.



Since the 10.2.2 update, the CPU spike overload issue has been solved for the most part. This was a major fix in my opinion. I don't use vepro either. I'm all in one using a Mac 3.46ghz 12core, maxed out ram, all pci-e ssd's for system and samples. Logic is screaming for me. Not perfect, but way more effecient than ever before. I do wish however they would fix the lag when switching from track to track using kontakt when instrument link is on. It tends to get annoying at times.


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## dgburns (May 18, 2016)

charlieclouser said:


> AlexRuger - I should explain how I use Logic's "object solo" or "solo regions" function to print stems and why I love it so much. When I'm working on tv stuff I don't bother booting up the ProTools stem recorder - instead I just bounce inside Logic. Why? Because I am always deciding on the fly what tracks / sounds will go to what stem. Otherwise I'd wind up with many cues having stuff only on two out of eight stems, and those two stems would be crowded with sounds that they might want to separate on the stage.
> 
> I don't do orchestral simulation, so it makes no sense for me to have "strings low" - "strings high" or whatever. For tv I print anywhere from three to eight stems, and I decide on a per-cue basis what goes where to give them the most flexibility on the stage from a music editing and mixing standpoint. Why put that one bowed cymbal scrape all bundled in with all the percussion when there's a perfectly good empty piano stem next to it? You know they're going to call me from the stage and say, "could you separate out that one bowed cymbal zinger for us?"
> 
> ...



Respectfully-if your method works for you and the mixer,that's great.I can't help but walk away from your process thinking otherwise.Seems to me your tv work fits into a non orchestral score,but that doesn't mean you couldn't create a really cool/awesome stem array that better matches the elements.OK,I have heard some of your work,but I haven't studied it super close.That said,I imagine off the top me head a potential stem offering like this-

1-loop material rythme lo/hard/heavy stuff
2-loop material lighter/higher
3-loop melodic
4-low end bass/synth/boom
5-pads melodic
6-guitars
7-risers/swoosh/cymbals /swells
8-hits
9-special fx

Obviously an A and B mix,so you can checkerboard if you need overlap.I imagine you currently use one bus feed to all your subs so you can use the arrange solo to print.Ok,that works,but just because the show has a unique sound,doesn't mean you can't create a real cool layout.Obviously the show will go for a while.I'm sure the mixer would like a cymbal swell on a track other then the one named "piano stem".

respectfully submitted,
David


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## whinecellar (May 18, 2016)

Got a SERIOUS new issue that I've never seen before. Just invoked "bounce in place." I hit play afterward and half my tracks aren't playing. Lo and behold, a bunch of them are all of a sudden assigned to "no output" - I've lost all those tracks, their plugins, automation, EVERYTHING! The regions are all there, but all their channel strips are GONE.

This is in addition to another "bounce in place" bug, where the resulting audio contains regions that were NOT selected when hitting the key command for BIP.. That is MADDENING and has been happening ever since Logic X for me.

Obviously there's some sort of corruption in this session file, and I suspect it may have to do with importing some tracks from an earlier version of the project done in Logic 9. Still, this is MAJOR data loss. I tell you, for all its improvements, Logic X has been by far the flakiest, most frustrating version in 23 years for me. Glad some of you are faring better, but I've had it... since my template is nothing but VE Pro, I think I'm rolling back to 9.1.8. I used that version for years and it was rock solid. I never had crap like this happen...


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## Ashermusic (May 18, 2016)

Haven't seen that here, but boy, I feel your pain Jim.

So maybe leave things that were done in Logic Pro 9 and do only new stuff in LP X?


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## Heinigoldstein (May 18, 2016)

I opened my template this morning and had exactly that issue too. Never had it before. 
But it has nothing to do with bip or similar in my case. All Clarinette channel strips were gone - no output, no plug ins, but regions. It might have to do with track stacks, because it were only the Clarinettes and they are stacked. And I copied some environment stuff from my old 9 template yersterday before closing Logic.


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## whinecellar (May 18, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> Haven't seen that here, but boy, I feel your pain Jim.
> 
> So maybe leave things that were done in Logic Pro 9 and do only new stuff in LP X?


Jay, your sympathy means a lot - thank you! This one is a major head scratcher... never seen anything like it. After rebooting, I opened that session file again, then Undo History. I undid everything one at a time while watching the track list to see if they came back, and sure enough, they did! And oddly enough it wasn't BIP that triggered it - it was moving some tracks around within a folder. So odd! I won't use that session for fear of corruption, but it was interesting to see.

I too wonder if it's related to track stacks, because all the tracks I imported from the Logic 9 version are in a new track stack, and they were largely the ones affected.

And yeah Jay, I try to stay exclusively in 9 or X, but in this case I wanted to pick up a session from 2009 and add to it using my current template - so the only way to do that was to import tracks. I've never tried it before because it seems too complicated, and ironically, because I fear corrupted files like this. So here we are 

From now on, I'll go back to simply importing audio stems from older versions instead of actual tracks & data. Lesson learned...


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## 5Lives (Aug 28, 2016)

I too am in the process of switching back to Logic X from Cubase 8.5. Cubase is really quite great, but there is something about Logic's layout and workflow that just seems...logical to me. Both companies seem to continue improving their products too (certainly would love some stuff from Cubase in Logic, like seeing note names on MIDI notes and multiple CC lanes and better multi-track MIDI editing. But loving SkiSwitcher for articulations. Better than expression maps IMO!), so hopefully the future is bright in the DAWverse.


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