# Are irregular time signatures changes "wrong"?



## porrasm (Nov 5, 2021)

The reason I'm asking is that in my head I hear a melody which has a 4 bar progression but the first 2 bars are 7/4, the 3rd one is 6/4 and the fourth is again 7/4. The melody works if it's 7/4 for the 4 bars as well, but it kinda sounds more natural and fluid if the 3rd bar is 6/4 and that's what I heard in my head originally.

Does this kind of abrupt time signature change has named term or something? Should I stick to the full 7/4 if that one works as well cause maybe it gets too confusing otherwise?


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## PedroPH (Nov 5, 2021)

I think these are called "mixed meters":






Time signature - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





It's not wrong, and it's not that uncommon, I think. If it sounds good in your head, then it's fine.


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## GigStage (Nov 5, 2021)

For example, progressive metal is full of odd time signatures.
So, I agree: if something sounds good for you - then go for it!


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## PedroPH (Nov 5, 2021)

Here's a video about Jerry Goldmith's use of mixed meters:


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## porrasm (Nov 5, 2021)

PedroPH said:


> I think these are called "mixed meters":
> 
> 
> 
> ...





PedroPH said:


> Here's a video about Jerry Goldmith's use of mixed meters:



Thanks for the links, gotta check that video later. I'll stick with the original rhythm.


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## chillbot (Nov 5, 2021)

Changing time signatures often is not only not "wrong" it can be quite delightful and is also an absolute necessity when working with picture.

Putting a pause/breath at the end of a phrase always works 100% of the time. Like a 5/4 bar at the end of a 4/4 phrase or throw in a 2/4 bar.

Another trick is that time sig changes always work so long as you own it, no hesitation. Make sure it always sounds deliberate and not a mistake. And if you have a whole orchestra playing even better because if everyone is playing it will never sound like a mistake.


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## AudioLoco (Nov 5, 2021)

chillbot said:


> an absolute necessity when working with picture.


When cues are constantly chopped and moved under your feet.....


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## MA-Simon (Nov 5, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> under your feet.....


uhm, excuse me for saying this, but, just fuck it, like you would in real life. The same rythm gets boring eventually.


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## Tusker (Nov 5, 2021)

In violent agreement with everybody, I think mixed meter can be transcendent. Here is an example from Tchaikovsky …


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## Michel Simons (Nov 5, 2021)

Yeah, go for it. I remember this piece of music a guitar playing friend of mine had written and the keyboard player of his band managed to decode it and it went far beyond your example when it comes to time signature changes. But it sounded good and that's the only thing that counts. Then again, I probably listened to too much progressive rock anyway.


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## Chris Harper (Nov 5, 2021)

I only have one rule: If it sounds good, it is good.


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## Geomir (Nov 5, 2021)

The Dance of Eternity by Dream Theater has more than 110 time signature changes in less than 6 minutes. I have watched it live and I was totally stunned.




Everything is allowed in music when you know how to do it. So if you like the result and sounds good to you, then totally go for it!


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Nov 5, 2021)

Currently writing a piano concerto... mixed meter FTW:


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## José Herring (Nov 5, 2021)

porrasm said:


> The reason I'm asking is that in my head I hear a melody which has a 4 bar progression but the first 2 bars are 7/4, the 3rd one is 6/4 and the fourth is again 7/4. The melody works if it's 7/4 for the 4 bars as well, but it kinda sounds more natural and fluid if the 3rd bar is 6/4 and that's what I heard in my head originally.
> 
> Does this kind of abrupt time signature change has named term or something? Should I stick to the full 7/4 if that one works as well cause maybe it gets too confusing otherwise?


I rather enjoy mixed meters. But, I also try and remember that when faced with having to learn Stravinsky's Rite of Spring, one conductor asked Stravinsky to write a 4/4 version of the ballet so it would be easier to conduct. I always remember that because a meter isn't the rhythm of a piece and you don't have to follow the pattern of any meter.


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## mikeh-375 (Nov 5, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Currently writing a piano concerto... mixed meter FTW:


coincidentally, me too...6 mins into mine.

@porrasm, if you're concerned about your mild example of time sig change, take a look at the last few pages of 'The Rite of Spring' for reassurance as to what can be done. Just one thing though, did you consider syncopation instead? (it's hard to know without seeing your music if time sig changes are the only option).


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## GNP (Nov 6, 2021)

Whatever is in your head, just put it down first, and then slowly make it economical and easier to play.
Then, good players should be able to handle anything.


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## KEM (Nov 6, 2021)

@porrasm time for you to start listening to Meshuggah


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## Pier-V (Nov 6, 2021)

Takashi Yoshimatsu was the first composer who made me feel mixed and irregular meters as an absolute necessity in music and something completely natural. (Unfortunately sometimes the scores of his works disappear from Youtube, maybe because of copyright issues?)



Some people even manage to go the extra mile and enjoy the craziest stuff (this one below slowly became a meme from 0:54 onwards)


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## darkogav (Nov 6, 2021)

Not at all. Irregular and odd time sigs are the greatest. But unfortunately, people are too dense and have too little attention span to comprehend complex music, hence everything is in 4/4 kick on the floor.


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## Dietz (Nov 6, 2021)

Last year, I mixed this great piece of music for a Japanese band:






The only advice they gave me was, "Make it sound danceable!" 

:-D


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## GdT (Nov 6, 2021)

Only thing is when it comes to conducting - it needs a lot more concentration and preparation.
Unless you get one of those wooly woofer guys who don't bother to beat time and just prance about and wave their fingers airly.


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## Gene Pool (Nov 6, 2021)

Stravinsky at times uses multimeters in ways that do not indicate the true rhythmic effect of the music. In other words, as a notation device within which he embeds an asynchronous polymetric effect, which is divided by the orchestration, each of which is its own multimeter strand.

This example is from the _Sacrificial Dance_ in ROS, leading up to, but not including, the death of the virgin.

The top stave is the actual music: two multimeter strands (i.e., asynchronous polymetric), separated into upper and lower elements.

The upper element is scored for nearly the whole orchestra, except for horns* and the instruments used for the lower element. The rhythms are all based on "A"; A-sub is the middle subset of A; A-trunc is A without its last note (truncated). This techniques of subsets and truncations of rhythms and lines is one of Stravinsky's signature moves.

(*The horns punctuate certain notes of the upper element, scattered throughout.)

The lower element is scored for bassoons, timpani**, bass drum, and basses. This element is (largely) rhythmically non-motivic, providing a (mostly) steady pulse that provides syncopation to the upper element (i.e., very few synchronous notes). Stravinsky uses this rhythmic dissonance to propel the drama of the sacrifice forward to its conclusion.

(**The _Sacrificial Dance_ was originally scored for two timpanists, but in later revisions Stravinsky consolidated the parts for one player.)

The numbers above the upper element and below the lower element indicate the *actual* metric groupings, with 16ths as the rhythmic pulse.

The bottom stave indicates the notated meters of the 1913 version. Each primary beamed group is a whole bar. (In later versions Stravinsky consolidated some of the meters to reduce the number of meter changes, but the music effect itself remains the same as the original.)


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## Brian2112 (Nov 6, 2021)

I would say the only thing that is wrong is 4/4. It's like playing a maj7 chord in root position. I avoid it like the plague unless your writing pop tunes and if anyone is, I am profoundly sorry.


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## Pier-V (Nov 6, 2021)

Isn't that a bit excessive though? I mean, for example if you write a composition that is completely in 15/16 except for one single measure in 4/4, the 4/4 bar is the real star right?


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## Brian2112 (Nov 6, 2021)

Pier-V said:


> Isn't that a bit excessive though? I mean, for example if you write a composition that is completely in 15/16 except for one single measure in 4/4, the 4/4 bar is the real star right?


Good point. 
I'm a drummer so I'm just tired of 4/4 lol.
Also, I'm all about Excessive.


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## Pier-V (Nov 6, 2021)

Fair enough then! Now I will go to Youtube and listen to a one hour long tabla improvisation to elevate my spirit and exorcize my sins...


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## Brian2112 (Nov 7, 2021)

No. This should do it.

I mean, shit, it evens out after about 12988^10 bars anyway.


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## chibear (Nov 7, 2021)

In one of the Hamlisch competitions I used poly meter: 3/4 against a 4/4 rhythm (the roller coaster section after the falling pianos around 2:30). Considering the way one of the judges whined about it I guess I went too far lol 😜

To the OP: if it fits your vision, use it; if you are using it in an attempt to appear sophisticated you will probably fail.


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## Trash Panda (Nov 7, 2021)

If changing time signatures is wrong, I don’t want to be right.


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## porrasm (Nov 7, 2021)

chibear said:


> In one of the Hamlisch competitions I used poly meter: 3/4 against a 4/4 rhythm (the roller coaster section after the falling pianos around 2:30). Considering the way one of the judges whined about it I guess I went too far lol 😜
> 
> To the OP: if it fits your vision, use it; if you are using it in an attempt to appear sophisticated you will probably fail.



It's purely what I heard in my head, I only realized it didn't fit a normal 7/4 when I tried to record the MIDI. With an orchestra playing it, it sounds very natural IMO and I'm quite happy how it turned out.

I might post a WIP preview of that part.


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## Bernard Duc (Nov 7, 2021)

GdT said:


> Only thing is when it comes to conducting - it needs a lot more concentration and preparation.
> Unless you get one of those wooly woofer guys who don't bother to beat time and just prance about and wave their fingers airly.


Not really, a half decent conductor should be able to deal with any meter change thrown at them without any problem. The only issue is reading, that's why we make them so big in film music. :

I need to precise: I'm talking about common meters, not about very fast 4/4 going to 7/8 mixed with some 3/16 and some tempo changes thrown in à la Stravinsky. But for a trained conductor, doing 4/4 all the time or 5/4 3/4 6/4 3/8 4/4 is basically the same, just use big time signatures if we are sight reading.


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## Living Fossil (Nov 7, 2021)

GdT said:


> Only thing is when it comes to conducting - it needs a lot more concentration and preparation.


It depends on different aspects.
Sometimes, if you have few time to rehearse things and there are things that rely on a precise timing, changing the meter may make it much easier for the musicians to play together.

If the following example had to be played by two performers:





with the following version the musicians would be most like more in sync (and it's also easier to get the intention right):


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## mikeh-375 (Nov 8, 2021)

Living Fossil said:


> It depends on different aspects.
> Sometimes, if you have few time to rehearse things and there are things that rely on a precise timing, changing the meter may make it much easier for the musicians to play together.
> 
> If the following example had to be played by two performers:
> ...


....funnily enough I found the top to be easier reading. I'm sure jazzers would too....YMMV of course...
Whatever, It's good to highlight the real and psychological difference between meter and syncopation and its potential effect on performance.


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## Marcus Millfield (Nov 8, 2021)

Mixed meters are fine. If you want musicians to workout a bit, add nested tuplets (triplets in quintuplets for example) for added brainwork.


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## Living Fossil (Nov 8, 2021)

mikeh-375 said:


> ....funnily enough I found the top to be easier reading. I'm sure jazzers would too....YMMV of course...
> Whatever, It's good to highlight the real and psychological difference between meter and syncopation and its potential effect on performance.


I agree there can be different views on this subject.
My experience is that classically trained musicians tend to have a certain range of "interpretation" of the amount of syncopation (which has also to to the fact that historically syncopations are much diverse in their execution as the notation may suggest). 
And while these things have usually less importance when working with fix small ensembles (who know each other inside out) they might be an issue with ensembles who don't work together intensely over a longer period of time.


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