# Why do I dislike very loud and sustained brass in orchestral music ?



## muziksculp (May 31, 2022)

Hi,

I'm wondering if this is just me, or anyone else shares this taste detail in orchestral music. 

Simply put, I'm not a fan of heavy use of very Loud and sustained Brass, i.e. in chordal writing. Sorry, but they just give me a headache, and ear fatigue, I don't mind the very short loud brass accents on specific beats for highlighting some parts of a musical phrase, or adding a bit of excitement, i.e. layered with Timpani, Cymbals, ..etc. but it is the long, sustained, and loud brass that I just can't relate to musically. It frequently sounds like cars honking in heavy traffic.  Maybe this is one of the reasons I love the Brass of the BBCSO Pro library.

I just wanted to get some feedback on this from other forum members, and if there is anyone who shares my taste, or the way of using brass in orchestral music. 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## José Herring (May 31, 2022)

I think you are entitled to your opinion but in all honesty I think you're going to find little agreement because this stuff sounds GREAT!!!!


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## Zanshin (May 31, 2022)

Brass is the best orchestra section.


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## José Herring (May 31, 2022)

And BBCSO brass for as much as it is maligned actually does a good job of sounding like classical brass.


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## I like music (May 31, 2022)

We know you're all about 'them strings... 

I'm not surprised. 

Do you mean traditional brass stuff from 20th century and before? 

Or the more modern "epic" approach?


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## José Herring (May 31, 2022)

I like music said:


> We know you're all about 'them strings...
> 
> I'm not surprised.
> 
> ...


If he means the "epic" brass then I can agree with that. It's really overbearing and artificially distorted. But, traditional brass sounds fantastic. I honesty haven't met anybody that does just love brass stuff.


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## Cdnalsi (May 31, 2022)

I also love BBCSO and am not a fan of the 'trend' of overly loud brass in an orchestra. And for me it goes a little bit further than just mixing: I've heard countless mockups and cues that just feature a totally unrealistic amount of brass instruments just so they would get that effect.

For me it's a toss-up between overly loud brass or the 'epic' percussion fads that I don't know which I hate more


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## muziksculp (May 31, 2022)

I like music said:


> the more modern "epic" approach


Yes, mostly This, but sometimes some of the classical repertoire can also get quite annoying to my ears.


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## muziksculp (May 31, 2022)

i.e. I love how Haydn used Brass in his symphonies.


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## Robo Rivard (May 31, 2022)

I love sackbuts.


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## muziksculp (May 31, 2022)

Zanshin said:


> Brass is the best orchestral section.


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## Saxer (May 31, 2022)

fff-brass is like an open synth filter. OK for climax parts but nothing for longer sustains. Good brass is dynamic as hell.

The more overtones the more there is the duty to modulate. Solo strings, sax, distorted guitar... all sounds ugly without vibrato, modulation, bending, and dynamic movement. Same for brass sections.

Good orchestras and big bands don't play loud. Fortissimo happens maybe twice per evening and just for a couple of beats. But for these beats it's WOW! Contrast is everything.

And Braaaams are out.


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## muziksculp (May 31, 2022)

Saxer said:


> fff-brass is like an open synth filter. OK for climax parts but nothing for longer sustains. Good brass is dynamic as hell.
> 
> The more overtones the more there is the duty to modulate. Solo strings, sax, distorted guitar... all sounds ugly without vibrato, modulation, bending, and dynamic movement. Same for brass sections.
> 
> ...


Exactly the way I think of Brass usage in Orchestral music. 

But, I hear a lot of the super loud, ff-fff sustained brass in some of the more modern, epic style music these days, and even in some classical orchestral works, that my ears don't enjoy.


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## Saxer (May 31, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> But, I hear a lot of the super loud, ff-fff sustained brass in some of the more modern, epic style music these days, and even in some classical orchestral works, that my ears don't enjoy.


I think I know what you mean:



It's silly.


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## Zanshin (May 31, 2022)

muziksculp said:


>


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## muziksculp (May 31, 2022)

Zanshin said:


>



LOL.


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## muziksculp (May 31, 2022)

Now this type of Brass I love :


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## kitekrazy (May 31, 2022)

As a brass player I'm a fan of Bruckner symphonies. I loved how he wrote for brass except some tuba parts were in the same register as trombone.

I find epic is the new yawn so I kinda get what the OP is sayin


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## Zanshin (May 31, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Now this type of Brass I love :



I love John Barry. I guess we have some overlap after all


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## FireGS (May 31, 2022)

José Herring said:


> I think you are entitled to your opinion but in all honesty I think you're going to find little agreement because this stuff sounds GREAT!!!!



I have a bit better recording/performance for that ending, IMO. NO idea who or what or when or where it's from, but I've saved it for like a decade. Skip to 5:05

View attachment TheGreatGatesOfKiev.mp3


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## mscp (May 31, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm wondering if this is just me, or anyone else shares this taste detail in orchestral music.
> 
> ...


Can you show me music that gives you a headache? I'm curious.


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## muziksculp (May 31, 2022)

mscp said:


> Can you show me music that gives you a headache? I'm curious.


LOL... Are you sure you want a headache ?


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## Trash Panda (May 31, 2022)

How do you feel about heavily distorted guitars and pounding drums?


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## muziksculp (May 31, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> How do you feel about heavily distorted guitars and pounding drums?


They also qualify for headache inducing music/sounds.  

But, I do enjoy them from time to time, more than long sustained fff Brass smashing my eardrums.


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## Trash Panda (May 31, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> They also qualify for headache inducing music/sounds.
> 
> But, I do enjoy them from time to time, more than long sustained fff Brass smashing my eardrums.


Then I think the answer to your original question is you might not be a fan of audibly intense music. 

One kind of cool thing (to me) I learned since getting into sample libraries is that distorted guitars blend very naturally with ff+ brass. \m/


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## muziksculp (May 31, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> One kind of cool thing (to me) I learned since getting into sample libraries is that distorted guitars blend very naturally with ff+ brass. \m/


LOL... Then, enjoy that combo.  I will have to excuse myself.


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## fudge (May 31, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> How do you feel about heavily distorted guitars and pounding drums?





muziksculp said:


> They also qualify for headache inducing music/sounds.
> 
> But, I do enjoy them from time to time, more than long sustained fff Brass smashing my eardrums.


I take it this must be your worst nightmare then


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## Trash Panda (May 31, 2022)

fudge said:


> I take it this must be your worst nightmare then



The guitarist is playing the song incorrectly and it's making me irrationally angry. 

And I think Skulp's biggest headache would be my Dancing Mad cover. Distorted guitars, pounding drums and BLARING BRASS all over the shop for 18+ minutes.


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## Cheezus (May 31, 2022)

FireGS said:


> I have a bit better recording/performance for that ending, IMO. NO idea who or what or when or where it's from, but I've saved it for like a decade. Skip to 5:05
> 
> View attachment TheGreatGatesOfKiev.mp3


My wife always watches Japanese shows via Taiwanese television and they never pay for the music license so instead they always use 5:05 whenever they are about to reveal something exciting. That one snippet is burned into my brain forever as a result.


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## Robo Rivard (May 31, 2022)

fudge said:


> I take it this must be your worst nightmare then



AMAZING! I love it!... At last, some real BLACK metal!


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## GtrString (May 31, 2022)

… haha, but it’s a bit like saying you don’t like X, Y and Z in the alphabet..


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## lux (May 31, 2022)

cause too many times sample libraries allow you to write for brass like you're going to kill the players in real life. So basically you're listening someone murdering the brass players. Your subconscious knows that and feels sad for them.


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## Chris Schmidt (Jun 1, 2022)




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## fudge (Jun 1, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> The guitarist is playing the song incorrectly and it's making me irrationally angry.


The drummer had to rewrite the solo too. I'm convinced Danny Carey has two extra arms.


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## mscp (Jun 1, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> LOL... Are you sure you want a headache ?


sure. send me a YT link of a tune you consider annoying because of the brass section.


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## PaulieDC (Jun 1, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Now this type of Brass I love :



I love brass but I'm also a huge strings nut like you. I had to compose a piece for my Berklee class that requires all 4 major parts of course, so I added brass at the end (I know... cliche) and while I was happy enough with it, the middle section was my planned favorite, and that was repeating the main theme with Celli, my favorite orchestral instrument on the planet. Then I said "OK, let's add brass in here somewhere". Very amateur attitude I realize and hopefully I'll grow up regarding brass. I bet if I go back and listen to many of the classic pieces, there's more brass that I love than I'm realizing.

I do love how John Williams uses the lower dynamic brass, playing as soft as physically possible in places. How about the opening riff for Indiana Jones? LOVE IT. And what would Imperial March be without brass? Oh my, the main Back to the Future theme or _Bolero_ or George Gershwin pieces... and I just remembered Theme for Modern Man and the theme for 2001: Space Odyssey. _OK, thank you for posting this_, I think I need to go back and rethink and re-appreciate!

NOW, crank up _Earth, Wind and Fire_ or older Chicago tunes and you have my attention. OH, _anything_ Glenn Miller or any of the classic crooners with a huge brass band behind them and I'm in sonic bliss.


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## Manaberry (Jun 1, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm wondering if this is just me, or anyone else shares this taste detail in orchestral music.
> 
> ...


People are not very good at mixing brass, so we must pray for them to just have a ppp library :D
I love brass and what it brings, but I agree with you at some point. Still, I enjoy the writing of Don Davis, Gordy Haab, Christophe Beck, and Bear McCreary.


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## Henu (Jun 1, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> How do you feel about heavily distorted guitars and pounding drums?


As a long-time metalhead, I need to chime in on this. I dislike the obnoxiously loud brass myself, but it's more about the _perceived loudness_ than anything else. Besides orchestral music, my favourite genre is black metal which is certainly rather screechy and overwhelming to the uninitiated- but I could listen that stuff for hours compared to your typical traileresque "epic music" whatsoever. Too loud is too loud, and it's not about the listening volume but the perceived volume and the overly distorted and squashed, tiring sound.

And now some off-topic concerning dynamics and perceived loudness, por favor.

The thing with especially black metal is that it's not squashed into that fucking loud mush where everything becomes a distorted wall of noise, but it's actually rather dynamic music. Trailer stuff and that superloud distorted brass isn't, as well as modern death metal. Taking this thread even more into completely off-topic, compare these two metal album productions and you can easily spot the difference. Which one could you listen an albumful?

"The trailer braaaam experience"



"The classical music experience"



/oldmanyellsatclouds


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## SupremeFist (Jun 1, 2022)

Zanshin said:


> Brass is the drunkest orchestra section.


Fixed that for you.


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## muziksculp (Jun 20, 2022)

i.e. I find quite a big chunk (not all) of Michael Giacchino's scores to be overly Brass heavy, I mean heavy handedly annoyingly to listen to, and orchestrally over used, and not confirming to my taste to make a musical statement. 

Having wrote this, I still like a lot of his scores, but some of the ones he over does the heavy brass, I'm not a fan of.


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## Marcus Millfield (Jun 20, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm wondering if this is just me


Yes. Go see a priest, this is heresy.

😘


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## muziksculp (Jun 20, 2022)

Marcus Millfield said:


> Yes. Go see a priest, this is heresy.
> 
> 😘


Hmmm... I see a trumpet in your Avatar.


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## Marcus Millfield (Jun 20, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hmmm... I see a trumpet in your Avatar.


I am obliged to answer this way by the Brotherhood of teh Brass. If not, I'm expelled as a member...

Trumpeter myself and have sat in orchestral and big band sections for 30 years. Also worked as a brass educator and conducted an amateur English brass band. So maybe I'm a bit biased


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## muziksculp (Jun 20, 2022)

Marcus Millfield said:


> I am obliged to answer this way by the Brotherhood of teh Brass. If not, I'm expelled as a member...
> 
> Trumpeter myself and have sat in orchestral and big band sections for 30 years. Also worked as a brass educator and conducted an amateur English brass band. So maybe I'm a bit biased


I love Brass. and Brass Players. But, It's composers that think that the louder, and denser brass they inject into their orchestration the better their music will sound, and get their musical message to their audience, but that's not the case. 

It's like screaming all over the place, rather than politely stating a musical idea. 

Oh.. and my ears are the real judge of music, if they don't like what they hear, I have to accept it


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## Loerpert (Jun 20, 2022)

I love loud brass, but I hate how it's used in trailer music. I think I don't like trailer stuff in general though.


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## muziksculp (Jun 20, 2022)

Loerpert said:


> I love loud brass, but I hate how it's used in trailer music. I think I don't like trailer stuff in general though.


Not only trailer music, even soundtracks. Some composers over do the brass, thinking it sounds great, I don't buy that.


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## Marcus Millfield (Jun 20, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I love Brass. and Brass Players. But, It's composers that think that the louder, and denser brass they inject into their orchestration the better their music will sound, and get their musical message to their audience, but that's not the case.
> 
> It's like screaming all over the place, rather than politely stating a musical idea.
> 
> Oh.. and my ears are the real judge of music, if they don't like what they hear, I have to accept it


I have that too. It's the energy buildup that just feels wrong in my body after a while. There is such a thing as too much. This goes for any instrument that is blatantly overused.

I have this with triple high C squealing trumpets. I cannot stand that testosterone-crazed, phallus compensating BS for more than a few notes. And that's coming from a trumpeter, for whom that stuff supposed to be Valhalla.


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## Vik (Jun 21, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I'm wondering if this is just me


No.


kitekrazy said:


> epic is the new yawn


I've never heard that opinion being stated in such a non-diplomatic way before, but I understand what you mean.


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## ed buller (Jun 21, 2022)

José Herring said:


> And BBCSO brass for as much as it is maligned actually does a good job of sounding like classical brass.


Horns only go to F

best

e


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## Roger Newton (Jun 21, 2022)

My Horns go to 11.


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## Chris Schmidt (Jun 21, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Not only trailer music, even soundtracks. Some composers over do the brass, thinking it sounds great, I don't buy that.


I think it was John Williams who said that it's best to spend most of the time writing for instruments in the mp - mf range because that's where their true timbre lies.

Whispers and screams tend to make voices all sound much more similar


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## Loerpert (Jun 21, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> I think it was John Williams who said that it's best to spend most of the time writing for instruments in the mp - mf range because that's where their true timbre lies.
> 
> Whispers and screams tend to make voices all sound much more similar


_You can never have enough mp - mf brass libraries _~ John Williams


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## Pier (Jun 21, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Not only trailer music, even soundtracks. Some composers over do the brass, thinking it sounds great, I don't buy that.


Maybe directors ask for it?


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## muziksculp (Jun 21, 2022)

Pier said:


> Maybe directors ask for it?


Maybe, the tasteless ones


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## Roger Newton (Jun 22, 2022)

Few people don't realise how dangerous Brass can be to your health. For example, take this 1970s album cover below. Tasteless? Moi?


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## Roger Newton (Jun 22, 2022)




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## RogiervG (Jun 22, 2022)

Roger Newton said:


>


that makes me think... the term being horny, does that come *no pun intended* from horns players doing loud braahms? (yo dude, check me out, i am horny right now with my braahms) hmmmmmm

I know where it originates from.. but play along..


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## Saxer (Jun 22, 2022)

RogiervG said:


> that makes me think... the term being horny, does that come *no pun intended* from horns players doing loud braahms? (yo dude, check me i out, i am horny right now with my braahms) hmmmmmm
> 
> I know where it originates from.. but play along..


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## Marcus Millfield (Jun 22, 2022)

So, brass players are the cool kids now? 😎


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## Bluemount Score (Jun 22, 2022)

Roger Newton said:


>


Ok!


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## Loerpert (Jun 22, 2022)

Saxer said:


>


Tromboner garantueed!


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## Roger Newton (Jun 23, 2022)

It can also be fun when you practice.


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## Chris Schmidt (Jun 23, 2022)

Roger Newton said:


>


Bruh


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## dcoscina (Jun 23, 2022)

Big fan of Wagner’s Prelude in Parsifal. And Goldenthal’s use of loud brass at the beginning of Wreckage and Rape from Alien3. The way he builds to that brass statement is incredible:


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