# Emotional film music melodies



## germancomponist (Apr 1, 2011)

Listen to this examples:

http://screenarchives.com/title_detail.cfm?ID=7189

I love compositions like these. Very emotional melodies. I am missing melodies in our modern film scoring time. What do you think is the reason?


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## rayinstirling (Apr 1, 2011)

Gunther,

It's an age thing, and we ain't getting any younger :cry:


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## germancomponist (Apr 1, 2011)

Hm, Ray,

and this could be the reason? I am not sure.


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## mverta (Apr 1, 2011)

Lack of skill. Writing good melodies is really, really, really hard. Writing so-so melodies is far easier. Writing ostinatos, and just avoiding the whole thing, is easiest.

You know what most composers do now? They do "vibe impressions." Like, the flavor of a thing is there, but it has no internal cohesion; no actual structural story. I hear this in 90% of demos. "It's 'pirate' music!" No, it's an impression of pirate music. It's like if you heard pirate music once a long time ago, and you tried to sum it up in 5 seconds. 

I caught a few seconds of the cartoon Tom & Jerry the other day, and I just closed my eyes and took in how freakin' solid the music was. I mean, like, from a different galaxy than your average Oscar contender these days. Transcendentally legit. I almost TiVo'd it so I could transcribe the stuff later because I know it's the shit. Players, too... just monster players being able to do all that insane meter work.

_Mike


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## adrianallan (Apr 1, 2011)

I agree 

Too much time spent nowadays loading patches and not enough being involved in a vibrant playing culture. Playing is where it all begins, not sampling etc.

I believe that nobody teaches one how to write a melody - you have to absord thousands of pieces and they somehow regurgitate themselves in a novel way. 

Again, if you don't spend years playing other people's melodic works, you won't have a subconscious idea of how to write a good tune. 

I also think that the fact that good melodies are unfashionable in classical music now doesn't help either - it's all about proving your ego.

Think back to the days when every bar had its resident musicians or piano player and now we have h-fi, wi-fi, karaoke, you name it - but not a living, breathing music culture.


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## David Story (Apr 1, 2011)

Desensitized producers. There are composers willing and ready to write melodies, though Mike is right about not many today.

Composers who worked through the transition say that producers and directors started to like the electronic textures and sound design. Any hint of a melody was "drawing attention".

The audience still likes tunes, people ask me "why is there just sound effects?" Including kids.

Thanks for the link Gunther.


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## EthanStoller (Apr 1, 2011)

mverta @ Fri Apr 01 said:


> I caught a few seconds of the cartoon Tom & Jerry the other day, and I just closed my eyes and took in how freakin' solid the music was. I mean, like, from a different galaxy than your average Oscar contender these days. Transcendentally legit. I almost TiVo'd it so I could transcribe the stuff later because I know it's the shit. Players, too... just monster players being able to do all that insane meter work.


Scott Bradley was brilliant! You should check out this FSM CD: http://www.screenarchives.com/title_detail.cfm?ID=6436


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## mverta (Apr 1, 2011)

WOW! Ordered that immediately. That's probably my June, right there.


By the way, on melodies: Just about every other toy my 7-month-old has plays Mozart, Bach, and Beethoven. Great work endures.



_Mike


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## Andreas Moisa (Apr 1, 2011)

I really think, it's the directors and producers who don't give melodies a chance. Maybe you like the cue I did for a short film a few years ago 

http://snd.sc/eNR9dq


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## rJames (Apr 1, 2011)

I think the reason that we aren't hearing wonderful melodies in film music as we did in the past is because film music reflects the popular music world.

When Henry Mancini was writing for film, popular music was very melodic. Moon River was from a filmscore and was a popular hit. Popular music has been getting more "hook line," and beat oriented for a couple of generations and the film music is following.


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## Lex (Apr 1, 2011)

Honestly it's apple and oranges. Can anyone name a single movie produced in last 5 years where a cheesy cheese like "long long trailer" would fit without being a musical joke?

It works in "long long trailer" and original T&J are masterpieces (in context), but does this style of writing fits any for of modern cinema?

And let's not forget that this kind of writing leans heavily on the Ballroom music of the 40s and 50s, which ,in context, makes it as pop as putting a Katey Perry song in a rom-com today.

There are different kinds of melodies, and there are plenty of them in modern film scoring. Weather or not they are the kind of melodies you react and connect to is a different question.

Alex


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## Hannes_F (Apr 1, 2011)

Andreas Moisa @ Fri Apr 01 said:


> I really think, it's the directors and producers who don't give melodies a chance. Maybe you like the cue I did for a short film a few years ago
> 
> http://snd.sc/eNR9dq



Nice! Salonensemble at it's best.

Of course - old-fashioned and purposely so.

Question would be whether great emotional film music melodies can be created within a contemporary approach. I think, yes.


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## mverta (Apr 1, 2011)

I did an experiment recently with a number of friends across the country - we all shot video asking strangers at malls and parks, places like that, about 500 people, from an extremely wide demographic - 14 to 65 - west coast, midwest, east coast, girls, guys, etc. to hum the theme from any film produced in the 21st century. To help, we gave them a list of the top 10 highest grossing films. In total, 73 people could sing or remember even a single note - anything - from any one of these movies, which grossed billions of dollars. They were all kids, and the theme was from Harry Potter.

Guess what happened when we asked them to sing Raiders, Star Wars, E.T., Jaws, or Close Encounters? We're editing the piece now and it'll appear as part of a video series I'm doing called Settling the Score. 

Great work endures. They're still lining up to see the Mona Lisa; we're still reading Romeo and Juliet. They're regularly selling out concerts for music Williams wrote 30 years ago, and selling zero tickets to hear just about anything else (film-music wise, I mean). Disposable, forgettable music wafts through the mediasphere like farts on the wind. The new stuff isn't staying with people, isn't memorable; it isn't becoming part of the definition of their lives; it isn't making the lasting, contributory impact it used to. The only music the "everyman" came up with was the one theme written by the guy who still writes like it's 30 years ago. 


It's not just music. We did the same test asking about great lines of dialog from the same group of movies. The youngest demographic utterly failed on this one, save for some really obscure lines from a couple of the movies. The adults had pages of great lines, from On the Waterfront to The Shining to Dirty Harry, to Scarface, to Star Wars, just tons of them...



Anyway, interesting stuff. We asked other questions, too, but I don't want to spoil the whole thing. 


_Mike


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## rayinstirling (Apr 1, 2011)

Ok I'll own up. The first music in a picture I remember is from Oklahoma.
I still remember the Surrey with the fringe on top even though I've never really watched any re-run since it's release. I was five and I didn't really appreciate it much.
After that the next music I remember as if it were yesterday was the gunfight scene in For A Few Dollars More. Certainly not a symphonic ballad LOL


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## mverta (Apr 1, 2011)

We asked about TV Show themes, too. More 21st Century fail on that one.  


_Mike


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## Lex (Apr 1, 2011)

Memorable is just easy to remember. How many of them would remember Madonna's "Like A Virgin" or even worse MJ's "Bad"? Would this prove that these works are comparable to something like Mona Lisa?

And how many of the people in question could hum a single note from Munich, Schindler, Geisha, Azkaban, Catch Me? Works that are in my opinion equally, if not more, genius to his adventure/children themes that anyone can whistle? Does the fact that not many can whistle Munich makes it lesser work compared to E.T?

Should we praise the genius of "Three Blind Mice"? So many people remember it, and it stood the test of time, far longer then Williams.

I guess for me it comes down to what should be the purpose of music. If it's purpose is to take you on a journey, makes you think, feel wide range of emotions, then I don't see how weather one can whistle it back after the music has stopped has any meaning.

And also, I have to ask...countless times, while reading this forum, I wonder what does listening to Raiders theme or Star Wars opening makes you feel or think about?
Question is for everyone not just Mike.

Alex


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## mverta (Apr 1, 2011)

Alex, you're failing to make a distinction which is actually one of the great reasons for the study: we asked the everyman about _orchestral_ music, specifically film and television music, which most people don't listen to. Pop songs, with their simplicity, are also slathered on the soundscape and repeated ad infinitum. They're in the car, at the store, at the prom, in the elevator. 

It's when music that is NOT popular music, and is not simple; is not part of their usual listening patterns and predelictions; when _that_ music makes it into the popular lexicon and is retained, that is an achievement of incredible note.

If it doesn't stay with you, it isn't part of you. We definitely feel that music which is transitory, forgettable, and disposable is inferior to music which people retain and embrace, even when it's not "their type of music." Nothing in our test diminishes works like Munich. What we wanted to know was what they retain, from whom, and from what period. That many great scores didn't make the Collective Conscious Filter doesn't diminish the ones that did, either. But there was unquestionably an awful lot of retention among scores from the 80's, and virtò %   A1 %   A2 %   A3 %   A4 %   A5 %   A6 %   A7 %   A8 %   A9


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## David Story (Apr 1, 2011)

Lex @ Fri Apr 01 said:


> Should we praise the genius of "Three Blind Mice"?



Yes. 

Mike, I hope your wonderful film asks: why?

I'm convinced that composers, performers and audience can write, play and remember melodies.

It's producers that have gotten so desensitized, they literally are scared to have a melody in their film. Of course, there are themes. But a great melody, like Hedwig's Theme, elevates you into a higher level of reality. 

I've seen it happen, where a director wants a melody, and is convinced that it's "too much". Even editors and some composers think this way. So a functional little theme is all that's left.

In other words, we've been dumbed down by businessmen.

Small films are where melody will come back, after a few of them hit big.


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## mverta (Apr 1, 2011)

David, we do indeed ask why. And we explore the society-wide trend of decoupling quality from success. It's pandemic. 


_Mike


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## Ashermusic (Apr 1, 2011)

mverta @ Fri Apr 01 said:


> rJames @ Fri Apr 01 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not a music historian, far from it, but your thesis puts the unmemorable music of Shoenberg (you name the others please) and his ilk into the category of not very good because the music doesn't stay with you.
> ...



Schoenberg was an excellent composer who certainly wrote "good music" but obviously exploring tonal melody was just not an area of interest for him. It does not invalidate him as a great composer but it made him an unlikely candidate to be a great film composer, where the ability to write a great melody SHOULD be an essential tool in the toolbox.


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## rJames (Apr 1, 2011)

mverta @ Fri Apr 01 said:


> Schoenberg?!! _ Schoenberg._ Good music?! Check, please.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, you're quite right my sentence is badly written. I should have reread it before posting. (I don't really believe that you didn't understand what I was getting at but it is certainly easier to attack my sentence structure than my argument)

Its pretty clear that you believe that current composers _can't_ write good melodies. It seems obvious to me that composers (throughout history) are driven by artistic, creative and commercial considerations. 

If you are decrying the devolution of the audience and the artists that pander to them you can just get in line with thousands of elitists throughout history who believed that their opinion of what should happen is more important than what has actually happened.

What that sentence means is that you just need to get over yourself and let the state of the art be what it is.


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## re-peat (Apr 1, 2011)

Ashermusic @ Sat Apr 02 said:


> (...) the ability to write a great melody SHOULD be an essential tool in the toolbox.


I don't think it should. Great melodies (truly great ones, I mean) are very much like rare diamond presents that you occasionaly get and only from very, very few composers. Most of them get by very well (and do a splendid job) with the fairly common ability of writing decent, functional tunes. Take Hans Zimmer for instance: never written a single great melody in his life (and I doubt very much he has the ability to do so), but that never stopped him from becoming the most revered filmcomposer of recent years. (And before anyone says that ‘Gladiator’ has a great melody: well, sorry, but that's not my idea of a great melody).

I also disagree with Mike when he says that 'skill' is the main requirement for great melody. Greatness in melody comes from an entirely different place, I believe. It's a very unique talent that not too many people are blessed with. In all of film music, I can only name maybe 5 or 6 composers who, I think, have or had it: Morricone, Mancini, Williams, Rota, Barry and Waxman.
Sure, writing a great melody often means a lot of very hard work, but something else is needed in the first place: some flash of un-analyseable magic. Inspired talent.
Besides, if 'skill' was all there is to it, how come Williams hasn't come up with a single great melody in the past 15 years? (There's still the occasional good melody, but there aren't really great ones anymore.) His skills certainly haven't diminished (quite the contrary), but that special something isn't there anymore for some reason (*). That special something that made the melodies of most of his 70's and 80's work such sublime and indestructible classics.
If there’s nothing but skill, you get these contrived and laboured melodic concoctions as can be found in, say, ’The Crystal Skull’ or the last three ‘Star Wars’ installments. Very skillful melodies perhaps, yes, but lacking all sparkle of enduring greatness.
_(*) I’m beginning to think it might have got something to do with age: many people of exceptional melodic ability seem to gradually loose it, once they approach and get past 50 or so. Take McCartney for instance, or Bacharach. Or Brian Wilson. Or indeed all of those 6 composers which I mentioned earlier. Maybe it’s something in the brain that slowly stops working the way it used to? I don't know._

Like Alex, I also believe that the ‘Williams’-kind of melodic writing often sounds very old-fashioned these days (except for the Disney-variety of family films, or fantasy films, or the kind of feelgood films that draws crowds to the theatres around the holiday season). That lush melodic approach to filmscoring just doesn’t fit today’s harder, grittier movies. Can you imagine films like ‘Inception’, or ‘The Departed’, ‘Pulp Fiction’, ‘No Country For Old Men’, ‘Silence Of The Lambs’ or ‘Seven’ with a richly melodic score? Would ‘Seven’ have gained from a memorable, skillfully written main theme? No, it wouldn’t. It doesn’t need it. In fact, it's much better off without it. Different type of film. 
All the melodic skill (and/or talent) in the world simply would be completely out of place in this type of films.

_


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## lux (Apr 1, 2011)

re-peat @ Fri Apr 01 said:


> I also disagree with Mike when he says that 'skill' is the main requirement for great melody. Greatness in melody comes from an entirely different place, I believe. It's a very unique talent that not too many people are blessed with. In all of film music, I can only name maybe 5 or 6 composers who, I think, have or had it: Morricone, Mancini, Williams, Rota, Barry and Waxman.
> Sure, writing a great melody often means a lot of very hard work, but something else is needed in the first place: some flash of un-analyseable magic. Inspired talent.



I fully agree with this statemement. I would personally add Alan Silvestri to that short list.


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## givemenoughrope (Apr 1, 2011)

The 'emotional melody' department in film music for me means Morricone, Mancini, Delerue.

I actually think that the increasing lack of melody in film scores over the last couple decades has been a reaction to John Williams. I'd rather hear Scelsi anyway.


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## midphase (Apr 1, 2011)

Thank you for mentioning Morricone...when it comes to great melodies, he's just as strong as Williams. (John Barry should be in there too...and Goldsmith of course).

Speaking of which...does Jaws have a good melody? What about Psycho? They're both highly memorable cues....but I wouldn't callò %   P† %   PØ² %   PÙU %   PÚ" %   Pë= %   Pðá %   PñŸ %   Pøn %   Pø %   Pù¥ %   Pùâ %   Pû %   Pûd %   Pýe %   PýË %   Qí %   QM %   Q é %   QP %   Q$k %   Q$¿ %   Q2Æ %   Q3 %   Q|K %   Q|” %   Q”  %   Q”º %   Q¥: %   Q¥w %   Q¾ %   Q¾B %   QÅh %   QÅ} %   QÈ %   QÈ( %   QîÖ %   Qîö %   R… %   R• %   Ri %   R‹ %   R)\ %   R)¶ %   R‹$ %   R‹¹ %   R§N


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## lux (Apr 2, 2011)

somehow application and craft come from a motivational impulse, which i think its connected to talent. If you have no talent at all you'll prolly find difficult to apply and earn skills, every minute of study/excercise will probably sound like a forceful due.


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## Rob (Apr 2, 2011)

mverta @ 2nd April 2011 said:


> Schoenberg?!! _ Schoenberg._ Good music?! Check, please.
> _Mike



I suppose this is bad music... 0oD 

www.robertosoggetti.com/Verklaerte.mp3

that's just an appetizer of "Verklaerte nacht" which is like 20 minutes, but gives the idea of the quality of the writing...


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## re-peat (Apr 2, 2011)

midphase @ Sat Apr 02 said:


> Speaking of which...does Jaws have a good melody?


'Jaws' is one great melody after another. Its main title may not be the most hummable tune in the history of music (although it's a startling piece of melodic creativity nonetheless, I think), but most of the rest of the score is Williams at his melodic best. "Out To Sea", “One Barrel Chase", "Tourists On the Menu", ... a veritable fountain of melodic genius.



David Story @ Sat Apr 02 said:


> (...) I agree it comes from a different place, but not that it's a unique talent.


We strongly disagree here, David. It very much is a unique talent, I believe. Quite rare, even. Sure, everyone with enough talent, and willing to put in a bit of effort, can come up with a reasonably solid tune, but the musical gift that produces the ‘Flying Theme’ from ‘E.T’., the ‘March Of The Villains’ from ‘Superman’ (both Williams), the love theme from ‘Romeo and Juliet’ (Tchaikovsky), ‘The Washington Post' (Sousa), ‘I Say A Little Prayer’ (Bacharach), 'The Magnificent Seven' (E. Bernstein), ‘Surf’s Up’ (Wilson), ‘I’m Looking Through You’ (McCartney), 'The Emperor Waltz' (Strauss jr.), ‘The Persuaders’ (Barry), the melodic string-of-pearls that is ‘The Sound Of Music’ (Richard Rodgers) or 'Carmen' (Bizet) … that is really quite an exceptional thing, in my opinion.
One can indeed learn about how to write a decent melody, but writing a really great one? No, sorry, I don't think that can’t be learned at all, no matter how much you study. You either have that gift or you don’t. And very, very few do.
And yes, with some people, it takes a lot of work for them to carve away at the rough melodic idea in order to arrive at its most perfect shape (Beethoven is indeed a well-known example, as is the famous 5-note tune from 'Close Encounters'), but that mysterious thing which lifts a melody above the banal, which makes it speak to people from all ages, cultures and/or walks of life, that is, I believe, something which can neither be studied, worked at, analyzed or explained.

_


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## lux (Apr 2, 2011)

yeah, ‘The Sound Of Music’, plain fantastic. 

I'm also a big fan of Mascagni's Cavalleria Rusticana, a true melodic gem which i rarely, not to say never, see mentioned.


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## mverta (Apr 2, 2011)

But again, we see in this thread failure to distinguish between popular and enduring; between "effective" and enduring; between "but I really like it" and enduring.

You can really like stuff that's essentially substance-less. McDonald's doesn't sell any shortage of food, and yet it has so little actual nutritive value that it doesn't decay if left sit out for 12 years. It's crap non-food that's got an entire society obese and 1 in 3 kids with diabetes. But they sell the shit out of it. Quality decoupled from success.

People stood in line for days to get the iPhone4, knowing it had widely-reported basic design issues, even after Apple came out and told people they had to hold it differently for it to work. Quality decoupled from success. It's everywhere; it's pandemic.

Popular and enjoyable may be nothing but fleeting, transitory qualities. Work that endures has more. Our questions were simple, "Can you sing the theme to...?" Most interesting were the people who could sing themes for movies they'd never seen. Why? Because the music has been so widely integrated into the lexicon that it's become part of the collective conscious. This is also true with dialog. A frightening number of people mentioned, "Say hello to my little friend," as a movie quote and had never actually seen Scarface. Scarface is a great movie. Great enough to permeate the culture deeply. Great work endures.


Time and history provide the ultimate perspective on what we _truly_ value; on what _really_ contributes to the human condition. This is why there are zero athletes in the history books. Zero. 

I'm not talking about some 100-years of baseball compendium; that's not a history book. I'm saying that people remember DaVinci, Michelangelo, Socrates, Newton, Ceasar, Napoleon... we've got Generals, Tyrants, Artists, Explorers, Philosophers, Teachers, Inventors, just about everybody. Zero athletes. Name the most popular athlete from the 5th century? You can name plenty of other people from the 5th century. 

But, you see, as cool as sporting events are - I mean, who doesn't dig a live, hotly-contested playoff? - and despite that such contests have been part of culture since the beginning, ultimately, jocks don't really matter much as individuals in the big picture. I've played sports most of my life, love it, but could never argue its societal contributory value as being anywhere near what the arts are capable of. And, ultimately, neither does society. As far as history is concerned, the only athlete really worth mentioning was the guy who shouted, "Nike!" and he was a messenger, not a marathon runner. Now, if an athlete does something more contributory than playing his sport - like, say, being the first black baseball player, which advances human rights - then you got something. But popular doesn't mean enduring. Enduring is something far more precious. You can besmirch John Williams all you want, but he has created orchestral music which has permeated popular culture moreso than by any other single human in 200 years, in a century where orchestral music isn't even the "norm." That's a gift to society of almost incalculable value.

And you know what? That _is_ old-fashioned. That's the problem.


_Mike


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## re-peat (Apr 2, 2011)

Now you've started a whole different discussion, Mike. One which I have nothing to contribute to because I agree entirely with what you're saying. From the first to the last word.

But just out of curiosity: which of those examples that I gave, fall, according to you, in the categegory 'popular & enjoyable' rather than the category 'enduring'. In my opinion: _none_. I truly think these are all magnificent examples of that rare thing that is a great melody. If Richard Rodgers, for instance, isn't a melodic genius of the first order, as good as any before or since, I don't know who is. And I don't like the "Washington Post" because it is popular, but because, above all, it's a divinely inspired piece of truly great music. As enduring as they come, in fact.

(I chose these examples quite specifically from various genres of music, to illustrate that this sort of musical greatness isn't limited to areas of musical activity which require thorough study before being able to make a worthwile contribution to it.)

_


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## mverta (Apr 2, 2011)

Well, enduring work is enduring work. History determines that, not me. But while we asked about themes, I've never believed that themes are the only, or necessary quality. They just happen to be the unifying element that connects the everyman and the musician most of the time. You can have a memorable theme which doesn't endure. But so far we've rarely seen the reverse - again, with the typical non-musician on the street - which comprises most people. As for where the inspiration comes from for greatness... beats me. I'm still looking for it; I'll let you know when I find it.


Incidentally, Hans used to write heavily thematic work. I remember actually digging Backdraft's theme quite a bit; I still catch myself humming it from time to time. He's doing stylistically different stuff now, which I actually dig on a lot of levels (much as I hate the other 99.999% of people who are just doing pale imitations of what he's actually about).

_Mike


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 2, 2011)

I like a lot of what you have written, Alex.


> Many people can enjoy music on a deeply emotional level without being able to hum back a single line once the music stops. This does not makes the music forgettable and certainly not disposable as you say.
> And also, I have to ask...countless times, while reading this forum, I wonder what does listening to Raiders theme or Star Wars opening makes you feel or think about?



I can't sketch out a Bacon painting, and in some cases, can barely make out what's going on , but I sure remember the feeling I get from his style, and will not forget his work. 

Who cares, seriously, if anyone can sing your soundtrack? It wasn't made to be sung or remembered, but rather to blend in with the rest of the sound (dialog, fx), the story, and the film in general. If textural music helps you translate complex emotion better than any diatonic melody, more power to you! _-) 

As for the question, when I hear the music I think of battles, collectible toys, actresses playing dumb babes and McDonalds/Coke. What can I say? I was too old to really fall head over heels with that whole scene like so many have. My first memories of Williams are from the 60s.


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## lux (Apr 2, 2011)

Who needs a calendar to recognize a great melody? That just doesnt make sense.

And durability doesnt define any peculiarity. As a matter of fact national hymns are among the most durable music existing while being for the most part boring as hell. So what?


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## mverta (Apr 2, 2011)

Paintings are an entirely different medium. Nobody on the street could accurately reproduce The Scream given a pen, and yet 90% of them have seen the damn thing, while the same people can nail the best Williams themes.

Again, themes themselves aren't the end-all-be-all, they're just an awfully conspicuous common factor amongst the most enduring work.

As for your utter dismissal of film music as an independent cohesive entity: the most enduring soundtracks are so because they survive on their own outside of the picture and the context of the film. This while managing to actually serve dual masters. When I write music for film, I'm sure as shit not trying to write something that will hide and blend. I'm trying to write music that will hide when appropriate, shine when appropriate, and be a completely satisfying experience on your iTunes months later, when the credits have long since rolled out. Yeah, I'm making it to be sung, remembered, _and_ work in the film appropriately. So is Williams, by the way, which is why so many otherwise disinterested people have his music ingrained into their lives. There isn't a swimming pool crowd on the planet that doesn't get smiles from the guy doing the Jaws motif.


lux: AGAIN: you don't understand the distinction between ritualistically repeated hymns, replete with expectation and social pressure, and people voluntarily embracing such on their own? Those are practically opposite scenarios. As for the calendar: you don't need it to define anything, it just lets you know who was worth remembering, and who wasn't. Romeo and Juliet? Check. A billion otherwise entertaining plays? Not so much. The ability to endure is the highest honor.


_Mike


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## lux (Apr 2, 2011)

mverta @ Sat Apr 02 said:


> lux: AGAIN: you don't understand the distinction between ritualistically repeated hymns, replete with expectation and social pressure, and people voluntarily embracing such on their own? Those are practically opposite scenarios.
> 
> 
> _Mike



Well, of course no. I dont have any significant link with the entire humanity. So for what it worths i cannot reocgnize if a melody "has been embraced" or not. What is a parameter? Number of performances? (not good). Number of TV/Radio appearances? (neither good). Number of times i've heard a melody hummed on the bus? (erh..). 

In all honesty, durability is a matter of random and unpredictable factors. Which often have little or nothing to do with the object.

Can you honestly point me to any "authentic" durability? Speaking things as facts, when theyre probably not, makes things a bit complicated when discussing, i say without a polemical intent. But saying "History determines that" is more or less like saying nothing. What history? where? who?


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## mverta (Apr 2, 2011)

Uh-huh.


Personally, as a composer, I try to write academically solid, but entertaining music for non-musicians, because most of the world is non-musicians. If it was for me, I would just sit at home, listen to my mock-ups and masturbate, I guess. So I've considered staying in touch with what the everyman thinks and feels of paramount importance. When I was 11 I began playing piano at parties, and used to prepare song lists with specific people-manipulation goals in mind. (7pm, make the room quieter; 8pm make the women come closer; 9 pm make the men come closer, etc.) I wanted to find out what sort of musical triggers people share. Many, as it turns out. But yeah, you have to stay connected if that's your goal. Having a "significant link" with the entirety of humanity isn't that tough. People are the same everywhere.

As for the entire record of human history not being an "authentic" measure of durability... if you say so. And maybe we're not really here at all. Maybe we're the figment of the imagination of a super-luminal being seemingly trapped forever at the Schwarzchild Radius of a star that went black hole before time began. So yeah, don't bother writing good melodies I guess.


_Mike


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 2, 2011)

Maybe I have a problem with this whole 'memorable' thing. Who cares if you can remember it? I remember a lot of very bad pop songs because they're 'memorable'. I remember Katie Perry's Teenage Dream hook, but I sure wish I didn't. 

I think the current state of melody downsizing only reflects what's going on in pop music. I sometimes miss Hall and Oates (never, ever thought I'd say that), but that time is over. 

Movies are not art, except those that are (art films, auteur films). Movies are there to push popcorn and coke. Strong melodies might make you remember the good time you had watching that blockbuster next time you pass by a coke machine.

As for the Jaws theme being so memorable: 2 notes repeated over and over (I know there's more, but most people don't) and a sort-of-realistic shark shot close-up by a great director. Take away the shark and low repeated notes, and no-one, IMHO, will remember that score. They remember the motif like the Psycho shower scene. It's not a melody that they remember, it's the sound of the high strings and the feeling it gave them when coupled with the killing. Just like Jaws, except it played in a different frequency range.


----------



## mverta (Apr 2, 2011)

I covered the difference between pop music and popularly embraced orchestral music already. I also clarified the distinction between memorable and enduring.

_Mike


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## mverta (Apr 2, 2011)

ChrisAxia @ Sat Apr 02 said:


> I agree completely, and I also realise how fortunate I am to be scoring projects where I am encouraged to be melodic. I've had so many composer friends tell me "The director doesn't want me to write melodies/themes. You're very lucky that you get to do this."



I think you should give yourself more credit than this. We make choices about whom we work for, too, and under what circumstances. Though, admittedly, I haven't had to deal with a director who expected something different from me than what he hired me for. I often wonder if composers know the adage about never putting on one's demo what you don't want to get hired for. Lots of people put stuff on their demo they don't actually want to do, because it shows "range." And then they get hired to do that stuff and complain. Can't have it both ways!


_Mike


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 2, 2011)

Mike, the complaining part - isn't that part of the reward of doing this for a living? :wink: 

I don't know about you, but bills dictate what goes onto my demo!


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## ChrisAxia (Apr 2, 2011)

mverta @ Sat Apr 02 said:


> ChrisAxia @ Sat Apr 02 said:
> 
> 
> > I agree completely, and I also realise how fortunate I am to be scoring projects where I am encouraged to be melodic. I've had so many composer friends tell me "The director doesn't want me to write melodies/themes. You're very lucky that you get to do this."
> ...



Hehehe. Good point, Mike! Well, I am lucky that the current team I'm working for are fans of the 'melodic' composers. The main editor in particular is a big film score fan and has very good musical taste and sensibilities IMO. It's also great to be working with people that really appreciate music and the benefit it brings to their projects. I attended the dub for one of them a few days ago, and was pleasantly surprised how nicely the dubbing engineer balanced the music with the dialogue - pushing the music up where it needed to 'breathe', dipping it when it should be 'hidden', and all with very smooth transitions, unlike some dubs I've experienced previously. It was nice to leave the dub smiling for a change!

~Chris


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## Lex (Apr 2, 2011)

ChrisAxia @ Sat Apr 02 said:


> Why are so many directors insisting that composers stay away from melody?
> 
> ~C



A lot of the times it's because on "mortal" budget projects the composer who got the gig can't do it right and ends up with a stinky plate of stale cheesy cheese. If I was a producer and had to make that kind of hard choice I would also always go with a generic pulsating sound bed then with a bad melodic theme.

I mean the start of this topic is case in point. If i hired a guy in 2011 for a rom-com and he comes back with something sounding like "long long trailer" with a touch of T&J for funny scenes, I would tell him to just stick to non thematic simple background music and add a bit of acoustic guitar and piano here and there.

As it has been mention here, writing a good melody that connects and speaks about the movie is not easy at all. 

Alex


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## mverta (Apr 2, 2011)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Apr 02 said:


> I don't know about you, but bills dictate what goes onto my demo!



Oh, there's nothing wrong with that! It's the complaining part I was addressing. "Gee, you're lucky..." Not really. They just bought what you offered them! No, I get doing what we have to do to get hired, but one of my absolute main pieces of advice for new guys is not to overly worry about getting the job; worry about what happens when you _get_ the job!

We spend so much time desperately pounding on the door, "Let me in! Let me in!" And yes, obviously networking and hustling and doing demos is critical. Crucial. But sometimes we get myopic about the pursuit and then suddenly one day the door opens and they say, "Okay, impress us." Just deciding to go get the job is a little like deciding to fall in love. You can make sure to be at the bar on Friday night, but _you_ have to have it together, yourself.

This is actually what's behind a lot of composers who get their Big Shot, and then immediately you notice their work plateaus or declines. It's because they hadn't planned on the phone ringing 24/7 for 5 straight years. They don't have a big enough toolbox to handle that much volume. And now with the phone ringing, they can't stop and take that all-important time to explore new ideas and directions and build up their arsenal. So they just re-tread and flap their arms just to stay above water.

So my advice is embrace your down time; embrace the freedom and shed like it's your last day on Earth, every day. Because tomorrow that phone might ring, and it might not stop for a long time, and what you do during that period may be the bulk of your legacy and long-term value. 

And if you get hired to do that thing on your demo that you actually don't like doing, you can bet the universe will make sure that's what you get hired for for the rest of your life! David Newman's a way better composer than just for comedy films. But...


_Mike


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## lux (Apr 2, 2011)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Apr 02 said:


> lux @ 2/4/2011 said:
> 
> 
> > why i have the sensation that every discussion about inner nature of the music falls short because every musician tend to evidence the importance of his own strenghts? And i'm not considering myself out of this.
> ...



this is true also. But my perception is that is the working side which creates the most issues here. When it comes to just likings is more a matter of "love", "hate", and in general a discussion which have more of a fun appeal. Its like when we synth geeks get a discussion about Op-x being a good Oberheim emulation or Zebra 2 being the mother of all synths.

When the discussion is susceptible to pertain a work dimension things change radically and everything becomes dangerous and ominous.

The working side is involved in this case. Melodists, arraò '   ÇÊ‘ '   ÇÊ” '   ÇÓ| '   ÇÓ‹ '   ÇÝ '   ÇÝR '   Çö¯ '   Çö÷ '   È
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## Ashermusic (Apr 2, 2011)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Apr 02 said:


> > Why are so many directors insisting that composers stay away from melody?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No by and large it has to do with producers wanting to be "hip" and au courant. They are not non-conformists, they are just conforming to what their circle of friends are saying.

It is more like middle age men shaving their heads, getting tats, and wearing an ear ring because they think it makes them loo badass.


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## Ashermusic (Apr 2, 2011)

mverta @ Sat Apr 02 said:


> But again, we see in this thread failure to distinguish between popular and enduring; between "effective" and enduring; between "but I really like it" and enduring.
> 
> You can really like stuff that's essentially substance-less. McDonald's doesn't sell any shortage of food, and yet it has so little actual nutritive value that it doesn't decay if left sit out for 12 years. It's crap non-food that's got an entire society obese and 1 in 3 kids with diabetes. But they sell the [email protected]#t out of it. Quality decoupled from success.
> 
> ...



Yep.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 2, 2011)

Great post Mike!!



mverta @ 2/4/2011 said:


> Oh, there's nothing wrong with that! It's the complaining part I was addressing. "Gee, you're lucky..." Not really. They just bought what you offered them![...]


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## wst3 (Apr 2, 2011)

I think the question is a good one, and I think the study is a great start to answering it, but, that comes with the anticipated prejudices that I carry around with me.

There are many inter-related influences, but I think it boils down to the music we get today for film, TV, and popular radio is what the current crop of music purchasing, advertising influenced people want to hear. They do not have the time to listen to melodic development, they want the hook.

I say this as a 50 something that was "forced" to listen to enduring music in school, and even worse, forced to play/sing that stuff in the various bands, orchestras, and choirs that I participated in all through my education. It ranged from the classics through what we called modern composers (Holtz, Copland, Barber, etc) to big band and jazz standards. We did play some more modern stuff, like Jimmy Webb, but really, thinking about it now, I think the most modern pieces we played were Herbie Hancock's Chameleon and Ides of March's Vehicle. When we begged to do some Chicago or BS&T in jazz band the director told us we could play them only if we transcribed them. (To this day I want to write one horn chart as cool as almost anything Pankow wrote!)

So it was conditioning... we liked what we listened to, and we demanded the same from our popular music. Sometimes it delivered, some times it did not.

Even my parents made me listen to classics, big bands, and a LOT of Frank Sinatra (dang those arrangements are cool!)

As the father of young children I try to expose them to the same stuff I listened to, but it's difficult to get them to sit still that long. My son has started digging up some interesting stuff on u-toob, he is currently fascinated with scat singers, but he still tends to drift to techno versions (who knew there was a techno cover of "I'm a Scat Man?"

The market place drives the producers, who drive the directors, who drive the composers. And the drive right now is for easily digested bits.

That said, I finally watched "Inception" last night (I'm way behind on movie viewing!), and while I don't think that the score compares, in terms of melody or development, to movies I grew up with (I'm not humming the theme today) I did think it was very effective in underscoring the story and building tension. It is one of the first Zimmer scores that I've really liked, and I did not pick up on the fact that it was his till the end when I noticed that spicatto thing.

The strange thing is that we also watched "Despicable Me", which Mr. Zimmer produced, and maybe it is just the demands of animation, but I liked it a lot. It was more musical, for lack of a better term.

Anyway, I am anxious to see/read/hear the results of the survey!


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## David Story (Apr 2, 2011)

Thoughtful post!


Ashermusic @ Sat Apr 02 said:


> mverta @ Sat Apr 02 said:
> 
> 
> > But again, we see in this thread failure to distinguish between popular and enduring;


True. But there's a reason. The OP is about emotional melodies- that can be a good melody, doesn't have to be great and enduring. Great is rare, and I believe that great melodies come from composers who mostly write good melodies. And occasionally find something timeless and/or enduring.
JW did not know he was writing a great melody in Star Wars. He was going for good.
Same with RR in Sound of Music.



> Quality decoupled from success.


I usually agree with Jay, but this time, I think there's more to it than producers following a trend. Though that does plays a role with some.
Producers have chosen to take no chances on melody. They don't care if the public is deprived. People have to get music, and will buy disposable stuff if they are not given a choice.
It's not a new kind of music- it's a new kind of producer, more into accounting and techno porn.



> And you know what? That _is_ old-fashioned. That's the problem.
> 
> 
> _Mike





> Yep.



A timeless melody isn't old-fashioned. It's just not the current business model. Which means if you can distribute it, you can get an audience. And I believe your film will get a big audience. For a documentary  Thanks!

EDIT
Lux, You're right. Sound designers and composers do see each other as a threat. That's because they often are after each other's job. Every time I suggest we work together, I get dismissed as naive. So we fail apart. 
Eventually, the public need for new melodies will bring a few composers up from the bottom. But we can speed up the process, and spread the wealth.


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## Lex (Apr 2, 2011)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Apr 02 said:


> As for the question, when I hear the music I think of battles, collectible toys, actresses playing dumb babes and McDonalds/Coke. What can I say? I was too old to really fall head over heels with that whole scene like so many have. My first memories of Williams are from the 60s.



Thanks Ned! You are the only one who responded to this so far... 


Alex


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## Lex (Apr 2, 2011)

mverta @ Sat Apr 02 said:


> Uh-huh.
> 
> 
> Personally, as a composer, I try to write academically solid, but entertaining music for non-musicians, because most of the world is non-musicians.
> ...



This would be an equivalent of a painter making a painting so that people have something colorful to hang on their beige wall....while being academically solid of course. 

It's always interesting to see how many different approaches to art there are, which is great, i guess, because there are so many different ways people understand or enjoy art.

Alex


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 2, 2011)

But, are we talking about art, or are we talking about music that helps movies sell popcorn and coke?


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## Lex (Apr 2, 2011)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Apr 02 said:


> But, are we talking about art, or are we talking about music that helps movies sell popcorn and coke?



Well, I got the impression Mike was talking about more then selling popcorn.
And if we are talking about helping selling popcorn then weather people can remember and whistle back a tune 20 years after is meaningless...in this case how much profit the movie made (or the soundtrack?) is the only thing that matters.

By that logic James Horner is far "better" then Williams?...... No?



Alex


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 2, 2011)

I guess I just don't just the value of a score by whether or not I can hum it. But I can appreciate the value of melody, the challenge. I'm as sensitive to beautiful melodies as anyone! In fact, I have to write a theme right now!


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## whinecellar (Apr 2, 2011)

mverta @ Sat Apr 02 said:


> You can besmirch John Williams all you want, but he has created orchestral music which has permeated popular culture moreso than by any other single human in 200 years, in a century where orchestral music isn't even the "norm." That's a gift to society of almost incalculable value.



Mike, you should really write a book; you are as talented with words as you are with music, and I always enjoy reading your intelligent & articulate views on this stuff.

Back to the point, you nailed it. Eventually some young director/composer duo (a la Spielberg/Williams) will come along and deliver a great story with an incredible, highly melodic score which reminds the public of what they've been missing since melodies have gone out of fashion, and everyone will cry "genius!" Well, perhaps not everyone here I suppose 

I have yet to find one person with the "blah, who cares about melody" attitude who wouldn't give anything to write one as memorable and well-loved as one of Williams' - if they were truly honest anyway.


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## jlb (Apr 2, 2011)

There is this whole '*serve the film, serve the film*' mantra going on I have noticed. Why can't film music be melodic and satisfying *AND* serve the film also. When I used to watch films in the 80s the music somehow stayed with you after the film, you thought, the music in that was great, I think I will buy the soundtrack to that. I am thinking of the Williams stuff, Top Gun, Vangelis, The Untouchables etc. Now the music has gone from your head and soon as you leave the place. It leaves no impression on me whatsoever. You see the 'Soundtrack Available' in the credits and think why the hell would I want to buy the soundtrack to that?

jlb


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## lux (Apr 2, 2011)

Lex @ Sat Apr 02 said:


> Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Apr 02 said:
> 
> 
> > But, are we talking about art, or are we talking about music that helps movies sell popcorn and coke?
> ...



James Horner is very good and inspiring.


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## mverta (Apr 2, 2011)

When Williams hit it big in the late 70's, orchestral music was "out," too, for the most part. The success of the score for Star Wars is largely credited for bringing back the age of orchestral scores, and it was in the wave of that that we got the best Williams stuff, and gems like Star Trek II, and Back to the Future.

Oh, and whine... thanks! 

_Mike


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## germancomponist (Apr 2, 2011)

So many good posts here! Thanks a lot to all!



whinecellar @ Sat Apr 02 said:


> Mike, you should really write a book; you are as talented with words as you are with music, and I always enjoy reading your intelligent & articulate views on this stuff.



+1

For me, it is always a pleasure to read Mikes views.


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## germancomponist (Apr 2, 2011)

Andreas Moisa @ Sat Apr 02 said:


> I really think, it's the directors and producers who don't give melodies a chance. Maybe you like the cue I did for a short film a few years ago
> 
> http://snd.sc/eNR9dq



I like it very much, Andreas! Thanks for the link!


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## germancomponist (Apr 2, 2011)

I am missing a comment from Guy Bacos....? 
Guy?


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## givemenoughrope (Apr 2, 2011)

Just curious, is anyone here not a big John Williams fan or is he the solid favorite? I was born in '78, basically with the plastic green light saber in hand but it wasn't anything by JW/SS that got me into film or film music in any meaningful way as an adolescent/young adult.


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## Peter Alexander (Apr 3, 2011)

In sticking with Gunther's question, I offer these thoughts.

First, especially at the college level, comp majors are not encouraged to be melodic. They're encouraged to write "art" music, 12-tone, etc., but not melodic. 

Second, not only are they weak at melodic writing more than a few will have problems harmonizing a melody. 

Thankfully I went to Berklee where you had to write, write, write and write some more.

When Bernstein was at Harvard, he studied counterpoint with a man named A.T. Merritt. One of the things Merritt had his students do was to sing pure melody - chant. And that's where they started - singing pure melody. 

In textbooks from the late 19th and early 20th century, writing strong melody was a requirement, along with being able to harmonize the melody. I have the composition textbook that Ravel's teacher wrote - strongly, strongly about creating good melodies and learning how to write strong melodies by learning how to study the work of the great masters. 

It takes Diane Warren one week to write a complete song. That's starting at 9 and finishing at 5 or 6 - five days a week or more. One song every 40 hours. '

Cole Porter would take two weeks to write one song and lyric.

When speaking about Mancini and Goldsmith, you cannot eliminate three factors:

1. their jazz background
2. they both studied in L.A. with Mario Tedesco-Castelnuovo
3. They both studied in L.A. with Ernest Krenek for atonal counterpoint

In short, they had well rounded training. 

Bacharach, don't forget, studied in Paris and his teachers included Darius Milhaud, Henry Cowell, and Bohuslav Martinů.

For emotional film melodies, how about Michel Legrand who studied at the Paris Conservatory from 11-20 and also studied privately with Nadia Boulanger. 

These folks did what they did because they put the time in to do so.


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## antoniopandrade (Apr 3, 2011)

lux @ Sat Apr 02 said:


> re-peat @ Fri Apr 01 said:
> 
> 
> > I also disagree with Mike when he says that 'skill' is the main requirement for great melody. Greatness in melody comes from an entirely different place, I believe. It's a very unique talent that not too many people are blessed with. In all of film music, I can only name maybe 5 or 6 composers who, I think, have or had it: Morricone, Mancini, Williams, Rota, Barry and Waxman.
> ...



Interesting topic. And on this note, Alan Silvestri visited Berklee this past week and had a series of Masterclasses where he discussed his scores, movies, life and music in general. He had something interesting to say on this subject. Apparently, for the past couple of years, directors have been avoiding themes. He said that aside from Bob Zemeckis, no other director would ask him for a theme in this decade. 

He also mentioned that the first time he met Steven Spielberg (when he was writing the score for Back to the Future) the first thing that Steven "said" to him was hum the main theme for movie, in it's entirety!


As an addendum, I also think that composers these days have very short deadlines that are completely ludicrous and incompatible with the time it takes to develop and mature a REALLY good melody.


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## germancomponist (Apr 4, 2011)

antoniopandrade @ Mon Apr 04 said:


> As an addendum, I also think that composers these days have very short deadlines that are completely ludicrous and incompatible with the time it takes to develop and mature a REALLY good melody.



Wrong! 

It seems that "Short deadlines" is nowdays the mega ultra argument for lack of skill!


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## antoniopandrade (Apr 4, 2011)

germancomponist @ Mon Apr 04 said:


> antoniopandrade @ Mon Apr 04 said:
> 
> 
> > As an addendum, I also think that composers these days have very short deadlines that are completely ludicrous and incompatible with the time it takes to develop and mature a REALLY good melody.
> ...



Could you please elaborate on how this is just "wrong"?

I've heard on multiple occasions, from multiple composers that the deadlines today are a lot tighter than say 20 years ago. Also heard it from Alan Silvestri himself, stating that there's less room and time for trial and error. Isn't it part of the process that you show your director a good theme, and he asks for a re-write, upon which you come up with a better theme? In my opinion, that process would really help for the composer to build something truly appropriate for the movie, but it seems we're getting less and less of that nowadays.


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## mverta (Apr 4, 2011)

It's wrong because you can learn to do it; it's not impossible. The cure for deadlines is serious craft. If you can really, really do it, you can do it right now, on command. In fact, I've found ridiculous deadlines to often be the limiting factor which forces me to go with my first, gut instinct many times, which is usually better than the overly-thought version.

Now, there are limitations, and things within reason, of course. The fastest I've ever gone was 84 minutes in 5 weeks, and I'll never accept that again. But generally, I look at a film, and make a mental note about which scene/ideas are going to take the most time, and begin them early if I can, so I have the most time to review/revise. 

I'm not defending the ridiculous deadlines; I'm saying that we can deal with them and still get good melodies out. It's just another skill. And plus... you should be spending every second between films shedding your ass off, and building a notebook of themes, ideas, motifs, progressions, orchestrational colors... 


_Mike


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## lux (Apr 4, 2011)

I agree about deadlines being a manageable issue with pratice. Of course having a lot of time means you can turn back on your own steps several times if youre not convinced and that could be an advantage sometimes (not always but sometimes)

But still there is no or little connection between serious craft and the quality of the melodies (which is Antonio's main concern). A great melody can be hummed or whistled in twenty seconds if you got serious talent. Craft serves the ability to develop a melody into a more complex work in a reasonable amount of time.


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## mverta (Apr 4, 2011)

That seems like a very difficult distinction to make. Certainly in my life, it was craft which helped me learn to write focused melodic lines. I was not born with a melodic gift - my first compositions were chord progressions, which had an internal melody, as far as I was concerned, but nobody else could hear it. Perhaps for some it is innate, and for others, the product of study. 



_Mike


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## Ashermusic (Apr 4, 2011)

I started out as a singer/songwriter and writing a good melody is the easiest part for me. Rhythm was the hard part and still challenges me. 

The best help for me was in the 70's when I had a band buying a Hohner Clavinet and trying to cop Stevie Wonder and Herbie Hancock licks.


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## Lex (Apr 4, 2011)

mverta @ Mon Apr 04 said:


> I was not born with a melodic gift - my first compositions were chord progressions, which had an internal melody, as far as I was concerned, but nobody else could hear it. Perhaps for some it is innate, and for others, the product of study.
> 
> _Mike



Which makes me think, can one learn trough study how to express it's emotions trough melody?....if melodic gift is not there?

Alex


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## Stephen Baysted (Apr 4, 2011)

Peter Alexander @ Mon Apr 04 said:


> In sticking with Gunther's question, I offer these thoughts.
> 
> First, especially at the college level, comp majors are not encouraged to be melodic. They're encouraged to write "art" music, 12-tone, etc., but not melodic.
> 
> ...




Peter there's so much in there that I agree with and that is borne out by teaching composition at University! 

There's an aspect to this that hasn't been brought up yet I think - and that is the fact that in contemporary film music modality rather than tonality is largely holding sway; and that leads, inevitably, to different melodic priorities and teleologies. There seems also to be a fundamentally Wagnerian approach to thematic material which leads to short bursts of 'melody' rather than longer lines with purpose and tonal direction. 

Cheers

Stephen


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## lux (Apr 4, 2011)

mverta @ Mon Apr 04 said:


> That seems like a very difficult distinction to make. Certainly in my life, it was craft which helped me learn to write focused melodic lines. I was not born with a melodic gift - my first compositions were chord progressions, which had an internal melody, as far as I was concerned, but nobody else could hear it. Perhaps for some it is innate, and for others, the product of study.
> 
> _Mike



yup i think that makes sense

Luca


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## mverta (Apr 4, 2011)

Lex @ Mon Apr 04 said:


> Which makes me think, can one learn trough study how to express it's emotions trough melody?....if melodic gift is not there?



Well, gee, I sure hope so. 


_Mike


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## lux (Apr 4, 2011)

Reading what Mike said, speaking about his early experience, chords progressions with voice leading can represent a rich emotional musical paint _au pair_ with a good melody imo.


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## Stephen Baysted (Apr 4, 2011)

lux @ Mon Apr 04 said:


> Reading what Mike said, speaking about his early experience, chords progressions with voice leading can represent a rich emotional musical paint _au pair_ with a good melody imo.



Yes it can of course, but it's not the same thing as writing a melody and then harmonising it. 

There was an extensive and well documented debate about this very thing during the middle of the 18th century amongst music theorists and composers, where melody had been seen very much as the by product or an accidental consequence of harmonic movement; the 'new' thinking was that melody needed to take back its rightful position as the most important musical mechanism with harmony serving it. 

Cheers

Stephen


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## David Story (Apr 4, 2011)

> Which makes me think, can one learn trough study how to express it's emotions trough melody?....if melodic gift is not there?
> 
> 
> Well, gee, I sure hope so.



The contour of a melody outlines the emotions it evokes. At it's most simple, positive intervals = positive emotions, negative = negative. EG, Raiders March contrast with Vesti la giubba.
That can be learned, and conformed to action.

The coexistence of multiple emotions is more subtle and less formulaic.EG Chopin prelude in E minor op 28. There are conventions used brilliantly, and the inexplicable.

This kind of art can't be codified, though we can copy it when we require the sublime.


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## Peter Alexander (Apr 4, 2011)

In the past, melodic writing was learned from folk tunes and hymn tunes.

More formalized came from learning counterpoint from Fux, Cherubini, which gave guidelines for creating singable melodies. In Counterpoint by Fux, I brought out these principles. 

Then in online classes, students picked 5 songs of THEIR choosing. regardless of the style and had to analyze the melodies based on Fux's guidelines. Over 90% of the time, the guidelines that worked yesterday were found to work in today's top songs.

@Rousseau - With Fux you learn to write in each mode so you have an expanded vocabulary harmonically. When Fux's approach is then dropped into modal writing as taught by jazz schools, your tonal vocabulary is even larger. 

Regarding Wagner: Wojo! Wojo!


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 4, 2011)

Guys,

Is it possible that a generation of directors do not want the music to be memorable? 

That some do not want the music to 'take over' the viewer's attention, and would prefer it blend in with the sound design? 

Are some afraid of the music making the film seem 'dated'? 

Do some directors think in terms of using Source (songs) for drama/emotion (melody in the singing), and Score for action/transition only?

Just askin'


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## mverta (Apr 4, 2011)

You can't hope to have an understanding of this issue unless you concede first and foremost that the level of craft amongst not just newbies, but most of the current crop of young composers is a mere fraction of what it used to be. An embarrassingly low fraction. You can quantify this 1000 ways. Some of it isn't their fault; we don't have the master/apprentice relationship opportunities our predecessors had. People like Goldsmith and Williams, in addition to a buttload of formal training, wrote and wrote often for live players, under tutelage. It was on-the-job training of the highest order. And this in an environment that fostered, rewarded, and revered that level of skill, to say nothing of the fact that without it, you simply couldn't compete at all. All of that is gone. This isn't to say you can't learn, but you have to work much harder, and be much more resourceful. Now, if you can't concede the galaxy-wide gulf in craft between those generations and this, then all bets are off. Because this is key.

Ultimately, young directors choosing poorly skilled/not-able-to-sustain-thematic-long-form-development composers is a self-selecting set. These directors don't want what they can't get. That's not just a coincidence, it's a sociological reality with parallels in countless aspects of life. Most of them have grown up without having any really great scores to compare to, and didn't come up in an environment which was constantly teaching them the distinction in the first place. They know what they know, have enjoyed mostly theme-less movies in their lives, and quite literally have no idea what they're missing, and thus no way to value it. And even when they do value that, who's going to give them the next truly John Williams-quality John Williams? Honestly... nobody.

I have met a few young directors who are the exception, but by-and-large, they want what they've always heard - this sort of watered-down "vibe" music without any real structure or internal story. That's the language they know. I am pig-headed and stubborn enough to have a coerced a few otherwise reluctant directors to let me show them that they don't have to make those sorts of choices; that strong thematic work can blend as well as anything, and yet bring a dimension and depth to their work they can only otherwise dream of. In most cases, since it's true, they ultimately get it. But I've also encountered this weird, depressing hybrid: They like it, they agree it's better, but ultimately, all of the music is so disposable in their view, that it doesn't _really_ matter either way. So it's not just that they don't get other approaches to music, it's that they've grown up and had their sensibilities shaped in such a barren wasteland of music of all types, that its entire contributory value is largely lost on them.

This is a tricky scenario. Raise a guy in a shitty small town, and he may pine for the city, finally getting out when he can, and experience wonders he could only dream of before. He'll never be able to go back, nor want to. But keep that kid in the shitty small town long enough, and he'll never be able to embrace the city; he'll end up decrying it, and denying it; never seeing more, never learning more, never expanding his horizons. And he'll stay perfectly happy, as long as he stays at home. It happens every day. 


The only constant is change, and in the final analysis, some music is returned to over and over again - it endures - and most does not. We may never know exactly why some pieces last for centuries, but we would be wise to acknowledge that strong themes are a common denominator most of the time, and good strong craft helps to shape melodies. 

I think until we're presenting directors with the compelling can-be-proven arguments for a superior product, regularly, we're fighting too many forces and biases to be successful, because these young directors aren't unhappy with what they've got! They've never been to the big city.


_Mike


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 4, 2011)

mverta @ Mon Apr 04 said:


> You can't hope to have an understanding of this issue unless you concede first and foremost that the level of craft amongst not just newbies, but most of the current crop of young composers is a mere fraction of what it used to be. An embarrassingly low fraction. You can quantify this 1000 ways. Some of it isn't their fault; we don't have the master/apprentice relationship opportunities our predecessors had. People like Goldsmith and Williams, in addition to a buttload of formal training, wrote and wrote often for live players, under tutelage. It was on-the-job training of the highest order. And this in an environment that fostered, rewarded, and revered that level of skill, to say nothing of the fact that without it, you simply couldn't compete at all. All of that is gone. This isn't to say you can't learn, but you have to work much harder, and be much more resourceful. Now, if you can't concede the galaxy-wide gulf in craft between those generations and this, then all bets are off. Because this is key.
> 
> Ultimately, young directors choosing poorly skilled/not-able-to-sustain-thematic-long-form-development composers is a self-selecting set. These directors don't want what they can't get. That's not just a coincidence, it's a sociological reality with parallels in countless aspects of life. Most of them have grown up without having any really great scores to compare to, and didn't come up in an environment which was constantly teaching them the distinction in the first place. They know what they know, have enjoyed mostly theme-less movies in their lives, and quite literally have no idea what they're missing, and thus no way to value it. And even when they do value that, who's going to give them the next truly John Williams-quality John Williams? Honestly... nobody.
> 
> ...



+1 to all of it.


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## David Story (Apr 4, 2011)

> because these young directors aren't unhappy with what they've got! They've never been to the big city.


+1

Music education for all. 

It's not just creatives who are feed vibe music. They mostly reflect the culture that everyone gets.

When we lost music ed in elementary school, the race to the bottom was on.
Expose kids to art music, to elevate grown-ups.

If you don't listen to quality music, you may reject the change from bland. 

A few directors get music, enough to be persuaded by superior quality content.
We need to reach out to the next wave, so more know how to listen.


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## re-peat (Apr 4, 2011)

Mike,

A somewhat narrow look on what kind of music films are best served with, if you don’t mind me saying so.
The kind of music that you obviously have most affinity with (and me as well as it happens), is but one of many, many possibilities to score a film. Like I said before, many of today’s movies are much better off _without_ that sort of music.

If a director doesn’t opt for the full-orchestral treatment, that doesn’t necessarily mean that he doesn’t know what he is missing. It might very well mean that knows perfectly well what he doesn’t want. 

The art of moviemaking and filmmusic grow together, they’re very much linked to one another. At the moment, both may have arrived at a stage that you may not feel entirely comfortable with, but does that mean that the current choices (made by directors and composers) are any less valid or meaningful? I don’t think so.
There is a time and a place for richly developed and masterfully crafted orchestral scores, sure, but many of today’s films, it seems to me, provide neither. And I don't think there's anything intrinsically wrong with that.

To blame the current state of fim music (in as much as you seem to find fault with it, that is) all on incompetent composers and short-sighted directors is a bit of unimaginative argument, I feel.

Besides, creating a good, efficient ‘atmospheric’ score requires just as much musical empathy, know-how, technique and dramaturgical insight than a full-blown orchestral one. It’s a substantially different craft, obviously, but I would never presume the latter to be always and automatically (artistically or functionally) superior to the former.


_


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## germancomponist (Apr 4, 2011)

I see your point, Re-Peat. 

But you can write great and/or emotional melodies not only with a full orchestra. Sometimes, for example, only a harp can transpose it very well.


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## mverta (Apr 4, 2011)

Re-peat, I never said any of that. In fact, I've said a number of times in the thread that films can be served by other types of music, which can be perfectly effective, enjoyable and yet forgettable, ultimately. I dig Howard Shore's _The Fly_ score, which fits into this category. 

But we're talking about the conspicuous absence of thematic scores as even an option, and the reason isn't particularly elusive: A good thematic score is more than a good theme: it's strong, highly skilled long-form symphonic-style developmental writing which can't be approximated by today's crop of low-skill composers. As I said, if you can't acknowledge the universe of difference in raw skill and training alone, then I don't know what to tell you. It's there. The kids can't do it, the directors have never had it, so nobody wants it. And that's how things go. People don't want what they can't have. And what they want is generally a product of what they're given.

The world was not clamoring for the ability to post banal, narcissistic, pointless minutiae of their lives, to serve as nothing but excuses for repliers to draw attention to their own irrelevant non-contributions, but 500 million Facebook users later, it's omnipresent. 

Nobody was saying, "Gee, our films would be so much better if only we could get rid of all this pesky musical cohesiveness and structure, and just have a lot of drums and loops." But, 500 million comic book movies later, it's omnipresent.



_Mike


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## givemenoughrope (Apr 4, 2011)

mverta @ Mon Apr 04 said:


> The world was not clamoring for the ability to post banal, narcissistic, pointless minutiae of their lives, to serve as nothing but excuses for repliers to draw attention to their own irrelevant non-contributions, but 500 million Facebook users later, it's omnipresent.



Social networking sites are continuing to play a huge role in what is happening in the Middle East. China, Iran, Israel and many others have either censored or attempted to censor such sites. I wouldn't call them pointless. 

Mike, I agree that film music is too "padded", interchangeable and not nearly as much about tying the story together as it should, melodically or otherwise. Maybe you could analyze some clips of JW or JG and compare to some more recent stuff since you obviously feel strongly about this. I'd be curious to really understand what you think is lacking in specific examples as opposed to just reading "structure" vs. "drum loops."


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## whinecellar (Apr 4, 2011)

mverta @ Mon Apr 04 said:


> The world was not clamoring for the ability to post banal, narcissistic, pointless minutiae of their lives, to serve as nothing but excuses for repliers to draw attention to their own irrelevant non-contributions, but 500 million Facebook users later, it's omnipresent.
> 
> Nobody was saying, "Gee, our films would be so much better if only we could get rid of all this pesky musical cohesiveness and structure, and just have a lot of drums and loops." But, 500 million comic book movies later, it's omnipresent.



Wish I could fit this on a bumper sticker


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## mverta (Apr 4, 2011)

givemenoughrope @ Mon Apr 04 said:


> Social networking sites are continuing to play a huge role in what is happening in the Middle East. China, Iran, Israel and many others have either censored or attempted to censor such sites. I wouldn't call them pointless.



It's not 500 million users spawning revolutionary change on their Walls, it's mostly tragically self-absorbed drivel, and I suspect you know that.  But, with 500 million users, however, yeah I would imagine a few figured out something useful to do with it.

As for helping to illustrate the contrasting differences between what we have and what we could have: stay tuned.


_Mike


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## givemenoughrope (Apr 4, 2011)

I get your point (i think), but people had pointless wastes of time pre-Facebook/blogs only it was thrusted upon them in the form of TV, bad movies, magazines, sports, etc. Now at least they are part of the creation or passing-along of it. What's important or entertaining to one person may not be to another. Besides, the people you are referring to were probably just as narcissistic before they ever touched a computer. 

How many your "what we could have" examples will be from Spielberg movies? All of them? I ask b/c many films aren't competing in that arena.


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## toddkreuz (Apr 4, 2011)

I think if Star Wars had been a totally crap movie, Williams wouldnt have near the acclaim he has now, and that theme would have been forgotten. 
(as great as it is)


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## bluejay (Apr 5, 2011)

I'm surprised at that survey Mike. No one could hum or sing themes from Lord of the Rings? 

I mean no matter what you think of that score, it is filled to the brim with themes that are easy to remember. I guess it doesn't have a big "this is the main theme!" opening moment like Star Wars or Superman ... or the advantage of 30 years of being absorbed into popular culture and quoted all over the place.


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## mverta (Apr 5, 2011)

Nope, no LoTR at all. And you're right it hasn't had 30 years of being absorbed into the culture and being quoted all over the place. The films were successful but disposable. As has been mentioned in this thread good and enduring are different things. Enduring is something very special.


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## mverta (Apr 5, 2011)

Uh... what?


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## whinecellar (Apr 5, 2011)

toddkreuz @ Tue Apr 05 said:


> I think if Star Wars had been a totally crap movie, Williams wouldnt have near the acclaim he has now, and that theme would have been forgotten.
> (as great as it is)



Respectfully, Star Wars WAS a "crap movie" that wouldn't have become what it has if not for JW's contribution. Lucas wanted to use known classical pieces - thank God Spielberg talked him into a meeting with JW. Can you imagine Han Solo chasing stormtroopers down the halls of the Death Star to the 1812 Overture?! Now if only the two of them had had the sense to never release Indy 4, but I digress 

Bear McCreary had some great quotes in a recent interview about how music can totally boost - or pull down - the overall production value of a film, and he's dead-on right about it. Something along the lines of "you can close your eyes but not your ears..." I'm out and about at the moment but I'll post them later...


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## toddkreuz (Apr 5, 2011)

whinecellar @ Tue Apr 05 said:


> toddkreuz @ Tue Apr 05 said:
> 
> 
> > I think if Star Wars had been a totally crap movie, Williams wouldnt have near the acclaim he has now, and that theme would have been forgotten.
> ...



Yeah, now that i think about it, it was pretty horrible.

Thanks for helping me see the light. 

TK


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## Steve Martin (Apr 6, 2011)

With all this talk of film melodies, one that I have really enjoyed is Andrew Lockington's theme from the City of Ember, called "One Last Message".


I also love his film music for "Journey to the Centre of the Earth" - very melodic, and tonal, and really beautiful writing for orchestra.

There's an interview with Andrew where he talks about his writing of the music for this film.

http://www.runmovies.eu/index.php?view= ... om_content

There's also footage released from “Journey To The Center Of The Earth” recording sessions right at the bottom of this page. This footage was filmed in October of 2007 at Air Studios in London, UK.

Here's the Link:

http://www.andrewlockington.com/

I just Love Andrew's writing for the Journey to the Centre of the earth score, and the City of Ember "One Last Message" music. 

Just thought I'd share it. 


Steve


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## whinecellar (Apr 6, 2011)

toddkreuz @ Wed Apr 06 said:


> Respectfully, Star Wars WAS a "crap movie"
> 
> Yeah, now that i think about it, it was pretty horrible.
> 
> Thanks for helping me see the light.



Funny thing is, I say that as a huge Star Wars fan (well, until Lucas forgot how to tell a good story anyway). Lucas has repeatedly acknowledged the massive debt he owes Williams, and has even described the music as a character important as any onscreen.

It's been a while since we've seen a film like that...


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 6, 2011)

I was 15 when Star Wars came out. I was into hard sci-fi, and for me, the film was just awright (as the Dog would say). And the music sounded dated, I didn't care for it. Alien, OTOH, was more my thing, the soundtrack as well. Now, of course, I have come to really enjoy and appreciate Williams, but I think there's a bunch of us older farts who never fell head over heels with the western in space.


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## givemenoughrope (Apr 6, 2011)

I like that Altered States track someone posted above. The rest of the score is wild! Too bad the flick isn't so great. It could have meant a great career in film for Corigliano. 

For me, the absolute first thing that comes to mind in regards to "Emotional film music melodies" is this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5Bcdmki ... re=related

I can't actually decide if it's the melody/piece that is great or just it's context in the film (Contempt, not Casino) that makes it memorable/emotional for me. Maybe it doesn't matter.

I hope people keep posting some good ones.

(Creepy tidbit: I pretty sure that I could see George Delerue's grave from my house with binoculars.)


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## toddkreuz (Apr 6, 2011)

Chord progressions ARE melodies,

And melodies ARE chord progressions.


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## poseur (Apr 6, 2011)

toddkreuz @ Wed Apr 06 said:


> Chord progressions ARE melodies,
> 
> And melodies ARE chord progressions.



ornette coleman, don cherry ::::: *harmolodics*.

dt


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## mverta (Apr 6, 2011)

Arguably so, but it was my mother who told me that my songs didn't have any melodies, and that was the first time I ever considered that people might not hear my music the same way I did. In many ways her little comment changed everything for me.


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## givemenoughrope (Apr 6, 2011)

Poseur,
I love Ornette, Don Cherry, Dewey, etc. but PLEASE, define 'harmolodics'...and in English, not in Ornette.


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## David Story (Apr 6, 2011)

Melodies

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sRM41K6 ... 75415C4D19

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vYY0aRH46I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcXiJibB ... re=related

3 different eras, yet melody is a character in the movie.


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## whinecellar (Apr 6, 2011)

givemenoughrope @ Wed Apr 06 said:


> define 'harmolodics'...and in English, not in Ornette.



I'm not sure that can be done, even in English: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmolodics 

In the meantime, if melodies = chord progressions, I'd love to hear someone hum the chord progression (or the "harmolodics") from any familiar score...


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## mverta (Apr 6, 2011)

If you can't handle Harmolodics, then you surely won't be able to conceive of my own musical revolution, known as Uncertonality, defined as: A musically existential state of being in defiance of causality, in which intonation, pitch, rhythm, and form co-exist within a single quantum domain, yet cannot be identified co-temporaneously or within any single dimensional node, yet manages to produce some really shitty music.


Give me 2 more minutes and I'll happily pull out another half-dozen musicological doctoral theses for you. 



_Mike


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## whinecellar (Apr 6, 2011)

We're quickly venturing into "Futureman" territory... he even has some stuff to say about the golden ratio as it pertains to the "Close Encounters" hook:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HHsS4ge ... re=related

Alright, enough wasting bandwidth for me. It's been fun, but back to actual music...

P.S. well done Mike


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## mverta (Apr 6, 2011)

Yes, I'm just procrastinating, too. 237 measure of articulations to put in. The notes were painful enough. 


_Mike


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## whinecellar (Apr 6, 2011)

mverta @ Wed Apr 06 said:


> The notes were painful enough.



No doubt, but look at the bright side: they probably make sense...


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