# Union questions



## jaketanner (May 8, 2017)

Hello...after reading an old thread here from years ago...I was wondering how important it is to join a union in order to get scoring work for an actual TV series or even a movie nowadays? 

Is is possible to get your foot in the door without a union?

Are there any composers here that are making a living without a union? 

Just trying to gather as much information as possible so that I can better focus my efforts. Thanks for the replies.

Jake


----------



## chillbot (May 8, 2017)

jaketanner said:


> Are there any composers here that are making a living without a union?


Every working composer in LA? Maybe you need to gather as much information as possible.


----------



## jaketanner (May 8, 2017)

chillbot said:


> Every working composer in LA? Maybe you need to gather as much information as possible.



That's the point..to gather information. So you are saying that a union is NOT needed? I'm a recording engineer, and I don't need a union to work on major label projects...not sure how it works in the scoring world.


----------



## Lawson. (May 8, 2017)

jaketanner said:


> That's the point..to gather information. So you are saying that a union is NOT needed? I'm a recording engineer, and I don't need a union to work on major label projects...not sure how it works in the scoring world.



There isn't a composer union that I'm aware of.


----------



## chillbot (May 8, 2017)

jaketanner said:


> So you are saying that a union is NOT needed?


Sorry, what I'm saying is there isn't a union for composers.

EDIT: what Lawson said.


----------



## jaketanner (May 8, 2017)

Ah...Thank you very much for clearing that up. That's a bit of a relief...lol


----------



## Lawson. (May 8, 2017)

Maybe try checking out this? It's not a union though. https://www.thescl.com/home


----------



## jaketanner (May 8, 2017)

Lawson. said:


> Maybe try checking out this? It's not a union though. https://www.thescl.com/home



Thanks for that link, gonna check it out. But from the consensus, there is no union that prevents anyone from getting hired for a major project, like there would be for other jobs within that field..like a sound engineer, or even a musician performing the score?


----------



## Lawson. (May 8, 2017)

jaketanner said:


> Thanks for that link, gonna check it out. But from the consensus, there is no union that prevents anyone from getting hired for a major project, like there would be for other jobs within that field..like a sound engineer, or even a musician performing the score?



You're welcome, and that is correct.


----------



## NoamL (May 8, 2017)

Jake, are you a member of ASCAP/BMI/SESAC yet?


----------



## C.R. Rivera (May 9, 2017)

Lawson. said:


> There isn't a composer union that I'm aware of.



I see that some one has posted the ASCAP organization. I wonder, however, is it considered a union as well, it is actually the "American Society for Composers, Authors, Playwrights"

---perhaps, not so funny, but as an historian I have fun with the word ASCAP when describing enforcement mechanisms, especially is you describe a gang action


----------



## Farkle (May 9, 2017)

ASCAP and BMI are not unions, as one of the powers a union traditionally has is the ability to "collectively bargain" on behalf of its' members, for wages, benefits, etc. There *IS* an American Federation of Musicians, which performers, orchestrators, contractors, etc. can be members of. That IS a union. Composers can be members of it as well, but the AF of M will not represent, negotiate, or get involved in the affairs of the composer.

So, for example, when I was an orchestrator at the AF of M, anyone who hired me would have to do so through an AF of M contract... but if I composed for a client, even though I was a member of AF of M, I had to do my own contract, my own negotiations, etc.

Mike


----------



## JJP (May 9, 2017)

Farkle explained it well. In the USA composers do not currently have a union for variety of complicated reasons. On a union film, the composers are often the only people in the room without union representation.

The two unions that cover musicians on a film are the American Federation of Musicians (AFM), and the Screen Actors Guild / American Federation of Television and Radio Artists (SAG/AFTRA). SAG/AFTRA only represents singers. The AFM represents everyone else, which usually includes on-camera musicians who don't have a speaking role.

ASCAP is not a union. It actually stands for the "American Society of Composers, Authors and Publishers". Publishers are a very important part of the organization as they control half the ASCAP board. ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC are performing rights organizations (PROs) that negotiate and collect licensing fees on behalf of their members. Unlike a union, they do not negotiate working conditions, pay, and benefits.

The Society of Composers and Lyricists (SCL) is more of a club from a legal standpoint. It works to advocate for and educate the composer community through meetings, workshops, screenings, social events, and political advocacy. The SCL also has a unique intern/mentor program in Los Angeles and New York for upcoming composers. The SCL has no legal status to represent its members in negotiations.

As a general note for others reading this, a union or a PRO generally will not help you find work. That is not their purpose. They serve the needs of people who are already working in the industry. The SCL may or may not help you find work, but regardless they are a good resource for networking with other composers and learning about the business, especially if you live in New York or Los Angeles.


----------



## jaketanner (May 9, 2017)

NoamL said:


> Jake, are you a member of ASCAP/BMI/SESAC yet?



I am a member of SESAC, but it's not a union. I don't want to join a union unless it's needed to get the bigger gigs..that's why I asked. but doesn't seem to be the case.


----------



## NoamL (May 9, 2017)

I mentioned ASCAP because you mentioned wanting to join a union to get scoring work. Well, that's not how it works, but ASCAP has many conventions, panels, workshops and so on. It won't get you a job but you'll learn more about the industry, meet working composers and form connections.

You also definitely want to join a PRO to get revenue from when you DO have work, so it seems you have that covered.

Another organization to join is SCL. They have a great calendar of events. They even screen movies with the composer - I saw _Big Hero 6_ and Henry Jackman and the director held a great talk afterwards about breaking the story and how that worked with the music.


----------



## jaketanner (May 9, 2017)

NoamL said:


> I mentioned ASCAP because you mentioned wanting to join a union to get scoring work. Well, that's not how it works, but ASCAP has many conventions, panels, workshops and so on. It won't get you a job but you'll learn more about the industry, meet working composers and form connections.
> 
> You also definitely want to join a PRO to get revenue from when you DO have work, so it seems you have that covered.
> 
> Another organization to join is SCL. They have a great calendar of events. They even screen movies with the composer - I saw _Big Hero 6_ and Henry Jackman and the director held a great talk afterwards about breaking the story and how that worked with the music.



Sorry..I meant I only wanted to join, if it was necessary to get jobs..I wasn't sure if they were unionized jobs or not, like in other aspect of the film industry. But thank you so much...everyone here answered all my questions, much appreciated.


----------



## bc3po (May 12, 2017)

jaketanner said:


> Hello...after reading an old thread here from years ago...I was wondering how important it is to join a union in order to get scoring work for an actual TV series or even a movie nowadays?
> 
> Is is possible to get your foot in the door without a union?
> 
> ...


No. You don't need to be a memeber of the union. There's no composers union, only a musicians union. AFM local 47, which you won't need to join until you work on a project that records in town (LA). All scoring sessions in town are almost always union, so to be a "part" of that session (i.e. Conductor, booth reader, etc....) you will have to join the union then. And you'll want to be on contract for those sessions when the time comes for benefit reasons. It's kind of confusing but it's a problem that will present itself and resolve itself when the time comes. I wouldn't worry about it now.


----------



## JJP (May 12, 2017)

bc3po said:


> There's no composers union, only a musicians union. AFM local 47,


Just to be clear, the AFM covers all of the USA and Canada. Local 47 is just the Los Angeles local. There are locals across the USA and Canada. New York (802) and other cities do a bit of union scoring for film and TV as well.

The AFM also represents musicians in symphony orchestras, musical theater orchestras and bands, live TV, record dates, touring shows, and other musical venues.


----------



## jaketanner (May 12, 2017)

bc3po said:


> No. You don't need to be a memeber of the union. There's no composers union, only a musicians union. AFM local 47, which you won't need to join until you work on a project that records in town (LA). All scoring sessions in town are almost always union, so to be a "part" of that session (i.e. Conductor, booth reader, etc....) you will have to join the union then. And you'll want to be on contract for those sessions when the time comes for benefit reasons. It's kind of confusing but it's a problem that will present itself and resolve itself when the time comes. I wouldn't worry about it now.




Thanks for the info. I am not much of a conductor, that was my grandfather's role..lol. he conducted at the Met in NY, and la Scala in Milan. But, if I do join, then I will be eligible to perform any piano driven parts if that happens to be the case. But as you said, nothing to worry about now, I am still in the infancy stages..just want to know what the steps are and be prepared.


----------



## chimuelo (May 12, 2017)

JJP said:


> Just to be clear, the AFM covers all of the USA and Canada. Local 47 is just the Los Angeles local. There are locals across the USA and Canada. New York (802) and other cities do a bit of union scoring for film and TV as well.
> 
> The AFM also represents musicians in symphony orchestras, musical theater orchestras and bands, live TV, record dates, touring shows, and other musical venues.



And for paying monthly dues as a contractor + occasional work dues you get Green Sheet jobs.
Otherwise, the only benefit is burial.
Which hasn't adjusted to inflation for 10 years now, probably Local dependent.

I'm able to schedule green sheet gigs to coincide with events I've contracted in most MidWest towns. Had to pass on a recent STL gig due to flooding.
Like most trades it's up to you to make the best of what they offer.
I still wish they'd have Business agents enforcing by-laws.

Paducah, KY believe it or not is the best Local I've ever seen for enforcing laws on the books.
I had a guy card me there that looked like a Iron Worker.
His jaw dropped when I pulled 3 cards of the various Unions I belong to.
I told him the event was done by an NGO and he still tried to get work dues by the sponsor and me.
Check only, made out to the Local.
Negotiable too.


----------



## JohnG (May 12, 2017)

Hi Jake,

Plenty of good advice here. Unless you want work as a union performer, conductor, orchestrator or copyist, you don't need to join any union. I was a member of the AF of M local 47 for many years but am not anymore, for example. As a composer it's not only unnecessary but can sometimes put you in an awkward position.

As a composer, unless you are not going to get union jobs as, say, a conductor or orchestrator, I personally wouldn't join today. Everything is idiosyncratic, though, so your situation could differ.

Kind regards,

John


----------



## JJP (May 13, 2017)

chimuelo said:


> And for paying monthly dues as a contractor + occasional work dues you get Green Sheet jobs.
> Otherwise, the only benefit is burial.
> Which hasn't adjusted to inflation for 10 years now, probably Local dependent.


Definitely depends on the local. Both my wife and I get our health insurance through Local 47. The AFM also enables us to get new use and reuse payments, secondary markets payments, and AFM-SAG/AFTRA fund payments for our TV, film, and recording work. You don't make a decent living on session fees alone.

The local has also been helpful in getting us paid on some live gigs over the years when employers were being difficult.


----------



## chimuelo (May 13, 2017)

Excellent. Curious if it's through the Carpenters Tri-State program?
In Las Vegas that was an option not long ago and a friend needed an expensive procedure done.
Sent him to UCLA. Everything 100% covered.


----------



## JJP (May 13, 2017)

chimuelo said:


> Excellent. Curious if it's through the Carpenters Tri-State program?
> In Las Vegas that was an option not long ago and a friend needed an expensive procedure done.
> Sent him to UCLA. Everything 100% covered.


Local 47 has their own health plan through Blue Shield of California.

The sad fact is that there are two health plans, so contributions get split between them based on the type of work done (film/TV vs live performance, record dates, etc.). That can make it tough for a lot of people to qualify if their work is spread among different areas. The reasons for this are long and complicated, and it needs to be fixed.

The good news is that film work goes into a flex plan which is a bit like a medical savings account. You can use the money to pay for any health costs - including premiums on another plan.


----------



## chimuelo (May 13, 2017)

Totally understand, a larger revenue intake and perceived rates/fairness, etc.
Long and complicated, heard that before.
Usually if you can't explain something with sentences, and require dozens of pages, the underwriters themselves aren't sure of what their role is.

Best wishes to you and your family.
International Brotherhood.....Hooah.


----------



## bc3po (May 13, 2017)

jaketanner said:


> Thanks for the info. I am not much of a conductor, that was my grandfather's role..lol. he conducted at the Met in NY, and la Scala in Milan. But, if I do join, then I will be eligible to perform any piano driven parts if that happens to be the case. But as you said, nothing to worry about now, I am still in the infancy stages..just want to know what the steps are and be prepared.


And if it's your session for an ensemble, you'll be "session leader" or "booth reader" no matter what.


----------



## bc3po (May 13, 2017)

JJP said:


> Local 47 has their own health plan through Blue Shield of California.
> 
> The sad fact is that there are two health plans, so contributions get split between them based on the type of work done (film/TV vs live performance, record dates, etc.). That can make it tough for a lot of people to qualify if their work is spread among different areas. The reasons for this are long and complicated, and it needs to be fixed.
> 
> The good news is that film work goes into a flex plan which is a bit like a medical savings account. You can use the money to pay for any health costs - including premiums on another plan.


It is hard. We were recording weekly for Person of Interest and it didn't really make sense for me to get insurance through the union. I was literally right on the line.


----------



## bc3po (May 13, 2017)

JJP said:


> Local 47 has their own health plan through Blue Shield of California.
> 
> The sad fact is that there are two health plans, so contributions get split between them based on the type of work done (film/TV vs live performance, record dates, etc.). That can make it tough for a lot of people to qualify if their work is spread among different areas. The reasons for this are long and complicated, and it needs to be fixed.
> 
> The good news is that film work goes into a flex plan which is a bit like a medical savings account. You can use the money to pay for any health costs - including premiums on another plan.


It is hard. We were recording weekly for Person of Interest and it didn't really make sense for me to get insurance through the union. I was literally right on the line.


----------



## chimuelo (May 14, 2017)

I posted here years ago how Burn Notice and Person of Interest had such fresh ideas about music I ended watching them more.
Hats off if that was you.
The storyline jumps around so much in POI conventional thinking must be hard to apply.


----------



## bc3po (May 14, 2017)

chimuelo said:


> I posted here years ago how Burn Notice and Person of Interest had such fresh ideas about music I ended watching them more.
> Hats off if that was you.
> The storyline jumps around so much in POI conventional thinking must be hard to apply.


Oh thank you. Yeah, it was a fun one!


----------

