# What is the ideal mic and mic setup for recording violin?



## Nigel Andreola (Jul 12, 2022)

My sister would like to record violin for me at her place. She doesn't have any recording gear. 

What would be an ideal package of recording gear for her? 

I'm looking for a warm, close, dynamic studio sound with a lot of detail.

I'm assuming she would need an audio interface, a good mic, or stereo pair of mics, and a nice mic stand. 

For violin, what type of mic or mics and what mic pick up pattern should be considered?

Where should the mic or mics be placed in the room and in relation to her violin? 

Should she record in as dry a place as she can, like her walk in closest, or is it good to have a little room sound for stringed instruments? To mix with other instruments, I think I'd prefer dry, but I'd be concerned the violin wouldn't sound right if recorded that way.

Nigel Andreola


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## synthetic (Jul 12, 2022)

I would go with a room with some reverb in it. Don't mic a violin up close, get at least 5 feet away. Violin miked too close is edgy and buzzy. But you'll pick up more noise that way, might need to unplug the refrigerator during takes. 

A condenser microphone is the traditional choice for a violin. You could also try a ribbon microphone, a moderately-price ribbon may be less "edgy" than a moderately-priced violin. Omnidirectional tube condenser if in a great room and you have a bit more to spend. Otherwise cardioid is fine. I wouldn't record solo violin in stereo. Most of all experiment, do a few recordings at different distances and see which you like best.


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## Nigel Andreola (Jul 12, 2022)

synthetic said:


> I would go with a room with some reverb in it. Don't mic a violin up close, get at least 5 feet away. Violin miked too close is edgy and buzzy. But you'll pick up more noise that way, might need to unplug the refrigerator during takes.
> 
> A condenser microphone is the traditional choice for a violin. You could also try a ribbon microphone, a moderately-price ribbon may be less "edgy" than a moderately-priced violin. Omnidirectional tube condenser if in a great room and you have a bit more to spend. Otherwise cardioid is fine. I wouldn't record solo violin in stereo. Most of all experiment, do a few recordings at different distances and see which you like best.


Thank you! That's very helpful. Do you have any brands or specific mic models that you prefer?


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## synthetic (Jul 12, 2022)

What is your budget? Interfaces at the $150-200 range are mostly similar and fine. Mic cable and stand are all pretty similar. Microphone is where to invest your money.

[edit] This is probably the easiest way to get started: 








Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 Studio Pack (Gen 3)


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If you have more to spend look at other microphones. Neumann and AKG are good brands. If you ask 40 people on here for a mic recommendation you'll get 90 answers. But if you can afford it, a nice microphone is an investment that will last your whole career.


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## Nigel Andreola (Jul 13, 2022)

synthetic said:


> What is your budget? Interfaces at the $150-200 range are mostly similar and fine. Mic cable and stand are all pretty similar. Microphone is where to invest your money.
> 
> [edit] This is probably the easiest way to get started:
> 
> ...


Thank you. That might be a good package for her to get started. I do think a better mic would be needed though. From what I hear online, that mic is less than stellar. I'm thinking less than $1000 for a bundle would be good. I'm not sure I can afford Neumann. The sales rep at Sweetwater recommends the Earthworks 30k Omni Measurement Mic pared with a Solid State Logic 2x2. He says if I'm looking for an accurate transparent mic setup with a very clean sound, that this would work very well. He also says because of this, how good it sounds will depend on the room and how good her violin sounds. I'm assuming harshness can be fixed with EQ? I don't mind playing with EQ. Like you, he said I should record in a room that allows some space and natural reverb.

This mic is a bit on the expensive side for me. Are there any other omnidirectional mics that you might recommend that are a little cheaper?


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## synthetic (Jul 13, 2022)

That's a very odd choice IMO. First of all, a measurement mic is designed for measuring accurate room response, not to sound musical. Second, a small-diaphragm condenser is going to get closer to that edgy sound that is hard to avoid on solo violin. Third, omnidirectional depends on how great the room is. It's going to capture much more of the room tone, which you may or may not want. I would stick to large-diaphragm cardioid especially for a recording beginner. 

SSL interface is probably good, I would look at the new UA interfaces too. Figure another $50-100 for a mic stand and cable, and I'll assume you have headphones already. If that leaves me with ~$700 for a mic, I'd look at the Neumann TLM102, Shure KSM32, Rode NTK, SE Electronics T2, Lauten Audio LA-320. You could also look at Warm Audio and Audio Technica though I don't personally love those. Try to find some recording examples with those and others in your price range.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 13, 2022)

"Measurement mic" often just means that it's a flat omni mic without an opinion. B&K and Earthworks are two examples, and they'd both do a good job on violin (if you have a decent room).

But if I were buying one mic to use for violin and probably other things, I too would choose a large diaphragm condenser - one that's fairly flat rather than one with a character.

If there's a standard position for recording violin with a single mic, it's probably about 3' above and in front. However, that's just one way. You could also use a clip-on mic. I have an old Audio-Technica ATM35HE, a clip-on condenser that works pretty well for lots of things. Who knows what the current model is.

Also, using multiple mics at different distances is perfectly legal, although it adds complexity. The famous 3:1 rule is a safe bet: the second mic should be 3x the distance the first one is from the source (to avoid phase issues).


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## ChrisHarrison (Jul 13, 2022)

Itzhak Perlman uses Royer Ribbon mics.


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## Joe_D (Jul 13, 2022)

Record in the best sounding room you can. Random or irregular reflections help recorded string sound a lot! Regular reflections like flutter echo (from parallel hard surfaces) don't sound good, though. Room treatment can help (you can make some diffusors or RockWool absorbers yourself if you are on a low budget).

Then, I'd go stereo, because it often results in a much richer and more "alive" recording. I'd get a matched pair of condensers to start with. There are plenty of decent pairs of small diaphragm condensers (SDC's) that you could get in your budget range. You can try to get a pair that has both cardioid and omni capsules (or a pair of the Shure KSM141, which have switchable polar patterns), and then you can experiment with many of the different mic'ing techniques, all of which will sound different.

SDC's are easier to place than a pair of LDC's (which can also work well). As for LDC's, there are less options for a pair with switching polar patterns in your price range. A pair of CAD M179's would work; they're detailed and extremely versatile (even offering the figure 8 polar pattern and intermediary patterns), but are maybe a bit harsh in the high treble (though very useable). They're also cheap, which could leave enough in your budget to pick up a pair of ribbon mics to experiment with. Strings sound great with ribbons, but you do need mic preamps that are quiet and have at least 60 db of clean gain for best results--that might be hard to find in your price range.

I haven't used the 3u Audio Warbler series LDC's, but I have heard a ton of recorded examples that sounded very nice (best bought straight from 3U Audio), and a pair of their switchable polar-pattern ("D" version) and also switchable voicing LDC's would be in your budget and would be quite versatile.

I would start with a cheap-ish but decent interface to start with (something like Focusrite or Presonus with better than their entry-level mic preamps--look at the specs and read reviews). Lower noise floor, larger dynamic range, lower distortion, and higher gain are better.


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## Nigel Andreola (Jul 14, 2022)

Joe_D said:


> Record in the best sounding room you can. Random or irregular reflections help recorded string sound a lot! Regular reflections like flutter echo (from parallel hard surfaces) don't sound good, though. Room treatment can help (you can make some diffusors or RockWool absorbers yourself if you are on a low budget).
> 
> Then, I'd go stereo, because it often results in a much richer and more "alive" recording. I'd get a matched pair of condensers to start with. There are plenty of decent pairs of small diaphragm condensers (SDC's) that you could get in your budget range. You can try to get a pair that has both cardioid and omni capsules (or a pair of the Shure KSM141, which have switchable polar patterns), and then you can experiment with many of the different mic'ing techniques, all of which will sound different.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the information and recommendations. I do like the idea of a matched pair for stereo! 

As far as preamp gain and ribbon mics, if the signal is quiet, would bringing up the gain once I bring the recording into my DAW be an option, or, would I need the gain to pick up a better range of dynamics? What is your opinion on buying used or vintage microphones?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 14, 2022)

ChrisHarrison said:


> Itzhak Perlman uses Royer Ribbon mics.


Which ones, just out of interest?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 14, 2022)

You'll notice how every opinion here is met by someone else who has an opposing one.

If I were recording a solo violin, I'd probably use my pair of small-diaphragm condenser mics (Oktava MK019) in stereo - coincident - about 3' away. Then I'd use my best large-diaphragm condener (Audio-Technica AT 4050) to get some room sound and a round out the tone.

And why not, I'd probably use my clip-on mic for good measure.

That would be the starting point. The mix of all four, who knows.


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## MartinH. (Jul 14, 2022)

Nigel Andreola said:


> My sister would like to record violin for me at her place. She doesn't have any recording gear.
> 
> What would be an ideal package of recording gear for her?
> 
> ...


Maybe it's worth considering how much effort you both want to invest into setting up and maintaining the recording setup. I could see a standalone recording device with built in mics and a mic stand mount being a decent compromise for ease of use. But I have no experience recording instruments with these, so feel free to disregard my post.


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## ChrisHarrison (Jul 14, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Which ones, just out of interest?


not sure actually. My violin professor uses them for that reason. I can find out. As far as gain, I’m pretty sure ribbons require a nice high gain mic pre. This is more fancy stuff.

The comment about the room is the right idea really. Someone more experienced would be more helpful as far as options.


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## ChrisHarrison (Jul 14, 2022)

A google search shows lots of responses. Coles ribbons, rca ribbons.

Totally not an expert, check this interesting article https://books.google.com.mx/books?id=3zX7DwAAQBAJ&pg=PT90&lpg=PT90&dq=what+microphones+does+itzhak+perlman+use&source=bl&ots=vqM3aetvNi&sig=ACfU3U1RighOpOyVhI4Mm0pJa-ZFzHdSWA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi1xJjnw_n4AhWSJEQIHX43C4gQ6AF6BAgUEAI#v=onepage&q=what microphones does itzhak perlman use&f=false

Would love to hear from some classical engineers.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 14, 2022)

ChrisHarrison said:


> not sure actually. My violin professor uses them for that reason. I can find out. As far as gain, I’m pretty sure ribbons require a nice high gain mic pre. This is more fancy stuff.



I know exactly why he uses a Royer mic, and anyone who's used one also does: they sound phenomenal! It's a very different, more natural sound than a condenser.

Also, they have some models with active electronics to raise the level, otherwise you need a mic preamp with a lot of gain. My Millennia one can be modified (by anyone who can use a soldering iron) for more gain, at the expense of a little noise if you use the gain.


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## Pier (Jul 14, 2022)

Nigel Andreola said:


> The sales rep at Sweetwater recommends the Earthworks 30k Omni Measurement Mic pared with a Solid State Logic 2x2. He says if I'm looking for an accurate transparent mic setup with a very clean sound, that this would work very well.


LOL that's super weird. Don't do this.

The biggest problem will be the room, not the gear, unless you have access to a recording room of course.

If you have a room that sounds nice and is silent then yeah, recording at a distance to capture a bit of ambience is the way to go. But my guess is that you probably don't have that so maybe record closer and add reverb in post.

The Motu M2 has fantastic AD conversion and super low noise preamps. If you plan on recording more than 2 mics you might as well get the Motu M4 for a bit more. The M4 also includes a mix monitor knob to chose how much of the DAW or the raw signal you want to hear in the monitoring.

For the mics I'd recommend Lewitt. Super bang for your buck. If you want stereo, get a matched pair of LCT 040 for about $200. Look up youtube reviews, they are fantastic and will capture all the detail.

With the MOTU and the LCT for about $400 you will have a really good stereo recording kit on a budget.

You could instead get 2 different mics a SDC and a LDC, or maybe a ribbon one. It all depends how much you want to spend and how critical the recording is.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 14, 2022)

Pier said:


> LOL that's super weird. Don't do this


It's actually not as weird as it sounds. You could run into problems with the room (because the mic is omni), but you can put the Earthworks very close up without getting any proximity effect at all.

The word "measurement" gives the wrong impression. It's just a very flat omni mic, and its really small capsule is why it's so uncolored.


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## proggermusic (Jul 14, 2022)

Earthworks mics can sound great. That's not a bad call at all, honestly – although if it's a terrible-sounding room, yeah, good recordings won't happen. But that'll be true with any microphone. An omni will pick up more room sound than a cardioid or hyper-cardioid pattern, but a good pair of omni mics in a good-sounding room will be a great way to capture a lovely recording by a good violinist, and any mic in a bad room will still sound bad. 

An "ideal setup" for recording violin would probably be something along these lines:

• A phenomenal-sounding room (and a wonderful player, the most important part!)
• A pair of Schoeps SDCs with MK4 (cardioid) or MK2 (omni) capsules
• Two channels of excellent clean preamps and conversion

...This'll set you back a solid $4k-5k. That's probably not doable. So here's what I'd recommend:

• A pair of Line Audio CM4 SDCs. (Crazy affordable but excellent quality, utterly clean and neutral mics, wide-cardioid pattern that's great for acoustic instruments.)
• A MOTU M4 interface. (Very good clean preamps and converters in an easy, affordable interface with good quality.)


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## X-Bassist (Jul 15, 2022)

Mics are an interesting thing. I recorded and mix strings live and in studio, and although I love my expensive mics, the difference between an expensive setup (3k for mic, 2k for preamps) and a cheaper setup (a good $250 mic and $300 i/o) is not as big as it used to be.

For live strings I’ve used a simple Shure A87 condenser cardiod ($230) for violin and cello and gotten a great sound out of it. Don’t use an Omni unless you have a great sounding room (Stick to a cardiod condenser). On violin you can mic it 18” to 2’ directly above and get a good sound (closer it gets too much Rosen, scratchy, farther and you’ll hear more of the room). For cello you can get closer (6” to 10”) from the lower front, pointed toward one of the two holes near the base. If you have time try different distances, an inch or two closer or farther can make a big difference. Try moving the mic around too, sometimes being a little off center will reduce the scratchyness without getting more distant (and adding more room sound). Record some tests and listen back before you record takes. You can find a sweet spot for your instrument/room/ mic.

Violin is not too difficult to get a good sound with a decent mic, you just get a little more detail and clarity the better the mic, but to begin with a decent mic, some good eq (Fabfilter Q3), and a great reverb (Cinematic Rooms, Lexicon Reverb bundle, Altiverb) will go a lot further than an expensive mic setup. Exposed strings really need a great reverb (I usually mix at least 2 or 3 together to get a smoother sound).


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## Nigel Andreola (Jul 15, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> It's actually not as weird as it sounds. You could run into problems with the room (because the mic is omni), but you can put the Earthworks very close up without getting any proximity effect at all.
> 
> The word "measurement" gives the wrong impression. It's just a very flat omni mic, and its really small capsule is why it's so uncolored.


The sales man did bring up to me the proximity effect. It was one of the reasons for choosing the Earthworks mic.


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## Pier (Jul 15, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> It's actually not as weird as it sounds. You could run into problems with the room (because the mic is omni), but you can put the Earthworks very close up without getting any proximity effect at all.
> 
> The word "measurement" gives the wrong impression. It's just a very flat omni mic, and its really small capsule is why it's so uncolored.


I didn't mean it because it's a measurement mic, but because it's omni.

Personally the only application I've seen omni mics commonly used are for field recordings and impulse recordings, that sort of thing. I'm sure they are used in recordings as a secondary mic to capture the ambience, when the room is deemed worth to capture, which is not that common.

The other aspect is that, yeah maybe an omni makes sense for someone to expand a collection of mics, but as a first and only mic? It's a bit specialized for that. And even if it worked for recording a violin in Nigel's current situation (I doubt it) it will probably not work in other situations in the future.



Nigel Andreola said:


> The sales man did bring up to me the proximity effect. It was one of the reasons for choosing the Earthworks mic.


I really wouldn't worry about the proximity effect when recording a violin.

First, violins have practically no low end. You cannot boost what doesn't exist.

Second, you need to be really close to the mic, inches away, for the effect to kick in.


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## Nigel Andreola (Jul 15, 2022)

From the recordings I've herd on YouTube, ribbon mics have a lot of character between models. A lot more than other types I've mics I've been looking at which tend to either be bright or dark.

I've been using the Best Service Emotional Violin for mockups. On the product page it says, "... two Neumann KM184 and U87 microphones were used very closely." By very closely I'm assuming they mean something like three feet? Also the instrument does not give you mic options, so I'm guessing they blended them? I might be able to afford one KM184, but a matched pair is out of my budget. Using a pair of U87s, appears to me to be entering bragging rights territory? I've her them compared to mics in the $1k USD range, and the difference is very hard to detect.

I guy on YouTube is using an AT4033A which sounds nice with his violin.

I'm actually wondering if something like the Zoom h6 could work. She could plug that into her Surface Pro and use the onboard stereo mics to record her violin. Any thoughts?

My other sister uses a Sterling Audio omni LDC to record her cello.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 15, 2022)

Pier said:


> I didn't mean it because it's a measurement mic, but because it's omni.
> 
> Personally the only application I've seen omni mics commonly used are for field recordings and impulse recordings, that sort of thing. I'm sure they are used in recordings as a secondary mic to capture the ambience, when the room is deemed worth to capture, which is not that common.
> 
> The other aspect is that, yeah maybe an omni makes sense for someone to expand a collection of mics, but as a first and only mic? It's a bit specialized for that. And even if it worked for recording a violin in Nigel's current situation (I doubt it) it will probably not work in other situations in the future.



I don't disagree - especially about the Earthworks mic being a somewhat quirky choice as a first or only mic - but those mics work really well on pianos close up. You need two of them for that, of course, in fact you'd want two of them in general.

While I haven't tried them on much else (that I remember - this was over 20 years ago), spaced omni mics aren't unusual for recording ensembles.

What I wonder is whether that salesperson at Sweetwater knows something specific that caused him/her to make that unusual recommendation, i.e. maybe s/he's recorded solo violin with that mic.


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## Pier (Jul 15, 2022)

Nigel Andreola said:


> From the recordings I've herd on YouTube, ribbon mics have a lot of character between models. A lot more than other types I've mics I've been looking at which tend to either be bright or dark.
> 
> I've been using the Best Service Emotional Violin for mockups. On the product page it says, "... two Neumann KM184 and U87 microphones were used very closely." By very closely I'm assuming they mean something like three feet? Also the instrument does not give you mic options, so I'm guessing they blended them? I might be able to afford one KM184, but a matched pair is out of my budget. Using a pair of U87s, appears to me to be entering bragging rights territory? I've her them compared to mics in the $1k USD range, and the difference is very hard to detect.
> 
> ...


Ribbon mics are a bit like tube preamps or tape. If you're 100% sure that's the kind of thing you want, go for it. OTOH recording with coloration/character/etc limits your options afterwards. Personally I prefer to record as clean and neutral as possible and then decide in post, even if it's less authentic in a way.

Another point is that produced sample libraries like Emotional Violin involve a lot of post work after the recording. I wouldn't attribute the sound you hear in the library to just to the mics. And don't forget the room, the skill of the player to produce a certain tone, the instrument itself, the skill of the recording and mixing engineer, etc, etc.

Beware of portable recorders like the H6. In some models when using the on-board mics, you will get more noise than when using an external XLR mic. Also the Zoom models are not great as audio interfaces regarding latency, stability of the driver, etc. Do your research. Personally, if I was buying a portable recorder on a budget, I'd be looking at the newer models like the Zoom F series. But really, most budget interfaces like the Motu M2 will give you better specs than even pro portable recorders.

Regarding the type of mic this is what Neumann has to say about LDC vs SDC:



> To this day, the main technical advantage of large diaphragm condenser microphones is their noise performance. The Neumann TLM 103, for instance, has a self-noise of only 7 dB-A. That’s about 6 dB lower (i.e. half the noise voltage) than the self-noise figure of a state of the art small diaphragm microphone such as the Neumann KM 184. However, in all other respects, the small diaphragm condenser is the superior type, technically speaking.


Violins tend to be loud, I really don't think mic self noise will be an issue.


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## ChrisHarrison (Jul 15, 2022)

Classical musicians consider the hall a big part of the sound. I think room matters most honestly. If I was doing a quarter recording, I would find a great room before a great mic hands down for sure.


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## Nigel Andreola (Jul 15, 2022)

Pier said:


> Ribbon mics are a bit like tube preamps or tape. If you're 100% sure that's the kind of thing you want, go for it. OTOH recording with coloration/character/etc limits your options afterwards. Personally I prefer to record as clean and neutral as possible and then decide in post, even if it's less authentic in a way.
> 
> Another point is that produced sample libraries like Emotional Violin involve a lot of post work after the recording. I wouldn't attribute the sound you hear in the library to just to the mics. And don't forget the room, the skill of the player to produce a certain tone, the instrument itself, the skill of the recording and mixing engineer, etc, etc.
> 
> ...


I'm with you about character and coloration. I'd rather have accuracy and play with adding my own character once I bring the recording into my DAW. What I do not want is an attenuated high end that might make the violin sound harsh and need lots of EQing after the fact. I also would not want too much high end roll off. From what you and others are saying on this forum and what I see online, a small diaphragm typically give better accuracy. LDC appear to be ideal for spoken voice, where a pleasant but possibly colored sound, without the need for processing, is desired for live streaming etc. It does appear that LDC come in different flavors for different recording uses. In the end, I guess all that matters is if it sounds good with her violin and her room.


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## Nigel Andreola (Jul 15, 2022)

ChrisHarrison said:


> Classical musicians consider the hall a big part of the sound. I think room matters most honestly. If I was doing a quarter recording, I would find a great room before a great mic hands down for sure.


I do agree with that; however, for my sister, I want recording to be convenient for her so she needs a home setup.


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## Pier (Jul 15, 2022)

Nigel Andreola said:


> I'm with you about character and coloration. I'd rather have accuracy and play with adding my own character once I bring the recording into my DAW. What I do not want is an attenuated high end that might make the violin sound harsh and need lots of EQing after the fact. I also would not want too much high end roll off. From what you and others are saying on this forum and what I see online, a small diaphragm typically give better accuracy. LDC appear to be ideal for spoken voice, where a pleasant but possibly colored sound, without the need for processing, is desired for live streaming etc. It does appear that LDC come in different flavors for different recording uses. In the end, I guess all that matters is if it sounds good with her violin and her room.


Respectfully, I think you might be overthinking it 

Yes, there are tonal differences between mics, but it's not like one mic will give you muffled high end and another super hyped harsh high end that will fry your ears. The player, the instrument, the room, and mic positioning will have a bigger impact in the final sound (given a minimum quality of recording gear).

BTW here's @venustheory using the Lewitt mics I mentioned before to record a viola for a sample library (take note, this is probably his first time playing a viola):


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## Nigel Andreola (Jul 15, 2022)

Pier said:


> Respectfully, I think you might be overthinking it
> 
> Yes, there are tonal differences between mics, but it's not like one mic will give you muffled high end and another super hyped harsh high end that will fry your ears. The player, the instrument, the room, and mic positioning will have a bigger impact in the final sound (given a minimum quality of recording gear).
> 
> BTW here's @venustheory using the Lewitt mics I mentioned before to record a viola for a sample library (take note, this is probably his first time playing a viola):



Thank you, that does give me some relief. I have noticed a bit of fanboy attitude with mics, especially super expensive ones. So if I take someone's mic advice, like yours, and just go for it, I don't have to worry too much about what I've bought being completely inadequate. What matters is getting that human performance, which, even if not as perfectly recorded as a sample library, I think will sound better to most listeners simply by being real. I'm not too concerned about performance. My sister is very good. Whatever she does will sound better than the hours and hours of my tweaking my performance of a sampled instrument will.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 15, 2022)

Pier said:


> Ribbon mics are a bit like tube preamps or tape. If you're 100% sure that's the kind of thing you want, go for it. OTOH recording with coloration/character/etc limits your options afterwards. Personally I prefer to record as clean and neutral as possible and then decide in post, even if it's less authentic in a way.


Actually, one of the Royer ribbon mics I used sounded the most natural of any mic I've ever heard. It was the SF1, which they've since replaced with a stereo version (SF12).

The other one I tried, the R121, had more of a round, smooth sound. It was the first mic they came out with.

This was also over 20 years ago, probably 25. It's remarkable how one remembers things like that so clearly!

Really great mics. At the time their main innovation was making ribbon mics that could stand up to normal use, in fact ribbon mics were so fragile that no one bought them anymore. But I assume other companies have caught up with that.


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## proggermusic (Jul 16, 2022)

The Audio-Technica AT40xx series are very respectable mics that are reasonably priced. I own an AT4033 like the one you mentioned and it's very good, I've done tons of professional work with it (mostly recording saxophones and woodwinds) and it's a great mic for the cost. The AT4040 and AT4050 are very good too.

I'd still take a good look at the Line Audio mics. They're handmade in Sweden and shockingly affordable, and pretty ideal for recording bowed strings. You can get a pair for like $300.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 16, 2022)

proggermusic said:


> The Audio-Technica AT40xx series are very respectable mics that are reasonably priced. I own an AT4033 like the one you mentioned and it's very good, I've done tons of professional work with it (mostly recording saxophones and woodwinds)



The AT4033 is a bright mic, if I'm thinking of the right model.

My friend Dave Moulton did a shoot-out of various mics on singers when I was at Recording magazine (this really is going back) and the people in the booth liked it better than a whole bunch of expensive mics - even though the singer was there and they knew it had a color.

The AT4050 is a neutral mic, quite different. Using the 4033 on sax is probably closer to the AKG 414, which of course is popular for a hot sax sound.


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## proggermusic (Jul 16, 2022)

Hmm, yeah, the 4033 has a bit of high-end lift, but the 4050 does too in my experience. But with the 4033, I've been able to get a huge variety of great sounds out of it just by experimenting with positioning. It's really quite good for acoustic instruments of all kinds, particularly if you take time to get the positioning right.

I recorded on a c414 B-ULS that was very pleasant and neutral. The new ones are definitely much brighter, and the smooth jazz guys love recording on the transformerless ones... not a sound I like much.


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## aaronventure (Jul 17, 2022)

For the overall recording setup, I would look to get 3 microphones. As others have pointed out, the sound of your violin recording will also be dependent on the sound of your room and it would be good to have options to experiment until you find the sound you like. 1 mic will have you resorting to reverb just to get a stereo sound. Two mics will let you record in stereo, but the polar pattern you pick will limit the technique options available to you. Three will give you a lot more flexibility, since you can mic the violin up close and put the other two in the room, or do anything in between.

I read you're aiming for a smaller budget. In that case, looking at Rode mics is a good idea. These are very good mics for the asking price. The Audio Technica cheaper range as well. For three mic inputs, in the lower price range you're looking at either the Focusrite Scarlett 18i8 3rd gen or the Presonus 68c. Regarding mic choices, here are some ideas:

- Rode NT55 matched pair + Rode NT-2. This gives you a pair of matched small diaphragm condensers with switchable cardioid/omni capsules, and a single large diaphragm condenser with a switchable polar pattern which gives you more flexibility when deciding how to mic up your violin. You can try M/S, XY, AB omnis + close miking and others and see what works best for you. The total here for the mics should be around $1000. I believe the NT55 pair is the cheapest matched pair of quality small diaphragm condenser omni mics you can get, other than the Oktava 02 set, which is pretty hard to find nowadays due to the war (there are a few on Reverb from different parts of the world).

- straight up just three Rode NT-2 mics. Cheaper than the suggestion above, but also less natural sounding than the NT55 pair. More flexible, though, since you can get three figure eights now, letting you do a room Blumlein with another mic up close, which is a nice oldschool sound (with great mono compatibility).

- Rode NT5 pair (just the cardioid capsules) + a bit better third mic. Can be a cheaper Neumann, the TLM 102, but that leaves you with just three cardioid mics. All pretty good ones, but not much flexibility. If you want more flexibility, I would look at the Audio Technica AT 4050. Good natural mic with a switchable polar pattern. Should do better than the Rode NT-2 when set up close to the violin. If, instead of the neutrality, you're looking to get some character, Rode makes a very good tube mic for its price, the K2. If you want a ribbon, the SE Electronics VR2 is in this price range. Rode also has an interesting active ribbon in this price range, though in this case you are stuck with the figure-8 pattern for the third mic. With all that said, this would be a pretty bold, character-driven setup. I would not make it as my first mic purchase.

- spend a bit more and get the Rode NT55 pair (the set with omni + cardioid capsules) along with a better third mic as listed in the previous point. Personally, I would pick the AT 4050 as the safest choice. Compared to the Rode NT-2, both are well built with good electronics and let you change the polar pattern, but the AT4050 sounds more natural with less color in the highs, which is something you'd want in a violin mic. If you can afford it, I would go with this.

Some examples of setups with this choice of mics:
- AT4050 close above and in front of the violin, NT55 back in the room with omni capsules. Experiment with different distances here and different patterns on the AT4050.
- NT55 in XY closer, AT4050 back in the room in figure 8, pointing to the sides. Use it either as a mono room mic, or turn it into the side channel.
- M/S with AT4050 in figure 8 and one Rode with a cardioid capsule, with the other rode either very close up or back in the room, depending on how close you put the M/S configuration
- NT55 in omni, AB, 30cm, somewhat close to the violin. AT4050 in figure 8 at the same distance, used for adding more focus (now we're truly experimenting!)


If you're looking to stay under $1000 along with the interface, get a pair of Audio Technica AT 2050 mics for flexibility, for the third either the Rode NT-2 or a small cardioid mic, like a single Rode NT5 cardioid.

Overall, I'd say three slightly colored mics but with more flexibility would be a better choice than two or one high quality natural sounding mic with fewer options (I think buying just a single ribbon is the worst thing you can do in this case). You would have to do some EQ-ing and be more careful about positioning (which means more trial and error in the beginning), but that's fine. 

If you can, get the NT55 matched pair set and an AT 4050.


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## Levitanus (Jul 17, 2022)

I pick up violins on the RM-Biv when it is possible. But this is the best choice for Europe, otherwise the delivery costs will be greater, than microphone itself)

P.S. a pair with preamps and stereo-holder will cost about of $1000. The single mic is about of $200


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 17, 2022)

proggermusic said:


> Hmm, yeah, the 4033 has a bit of high-end lift, but the 4050 does too in my experience. But with the 4033, I've been able to get a huge variety of great sounds out of it just by experimenting with positioning. It's really quite good for acoustic instruments of all kinds, particularly if you take time to get the positioning right.
> 
> I recorded on a c414 B-ULS that was very pleasant and neutral. The new ones are definitely much brighter, and the smooth jazz guys love recording on the transformerless ones... not a sound I like much.



The 4033 is a very good mic. It's not an LDC - which is neither good nor bad, just a comment.

The 4050 does have a very slight rise at the top, however as mics go I personally wouldn't describe it as particularly bright. But the main point is that it's not a character mic, especially if you use it in omni.

Is this 4050 chart accurate? I don't know, nor do I know what position it was in to make this sweep (presumably not hypercardioid!). It was just on the Internet, but it does agree with me therefore I like it.


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## Nigel Andreola (Jul 17, 2022)

aaronventure said:


> For the overall recording setup, I would look to get 3 microphones. As others have pointed out, the sound of your violin recording will also be dependent on the sound of your room and it would be good to have options to experiment until you find the sound you like. 1 mic will have you resorting to reverb just to get a stereo sound. Two mics will let you record in stereo, but the polar pattern you pick will limit the technique options available to you. Three will give you a lot more flexibility, since you can mic the violin up close and put the other two in the room, or do anything in between.
> 
> I read you're aiming for a smaller budget. In that case, looking at Rode mics is a good idea. These are very good mics for the asking price. The Audio Technica cheaper range as well. For three mic inputs, in the lower price range you're looking at either the Focusrite Scarlett 18i8 3rd gen or the Presonus 68c. Regarding mic choices, here are some ideas:
> 
> ...


Thank you for the detailed advice! It is worth noting that my sister's place is in the country and has wood floors, which I'm told can be good for recording violin. I do like your suggested bundle of a matched pair of NT55 and an AT 4050. I'll look into getting her an interface right away. I'm not sure if we can get all three mics at the same time. Do you recommend we start with a matched pair of NT55?


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## venustheory (Jul 17, 2022)

FWIW: the best mic is the one you have.

All options open? Good ribbon + condenser for M/S recording like an acoustic guitar + an omni room mic.

Basic setup? Pair of SDCs for stereo or just a humble LDC about 3 feet away.


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## Beat Kaufmann (Jul 17, 2022)

Here is my contribution, after many suggestions have already been made.

If you record a violin solo, you should choose a stereo setup. So if it is added as a solo instrument to a whole orchestra, a stereo spot microphone is usually sufficient.
For the stereo setup, it is best to choose a stereo configuration that also has a time difference between the microphones (e.g. ORTF not X/Y)

The position of the microphones should be chosen about 1-1.5m above the violin top, because that is where the highest overtones are present as well (below the violin you have the least of them). If the sound is a bit too sharp, you can move something to the side, but nevertheless, point the microphones towards the violin top.

The pair of NT55 will work just fine. An additional AT 4050 is not required to start (luxury version). If you use a third microphone, you should compensate the time difference the AT4050 and the NT55. The following applies here: Each additional microphone is initially a problem and not a gain! So you have to know exactly what you want to achieve with the sound of the 3rd microphone...
Pocket recorders such as e.g. Zoom H4, H6 in connection with NT55 are sufficient as recording devices. I would set twice the recording clock frequency as is finally needed. with CD 44.1kHz i.e. 88.2kHz and with 48kHz (video) then 96kHz. 24-bit resolution, of course.

One last important note: Ideally, the room above the violin is very high so that no reflections from the ceiling also get into the microphones installed above the violin. Of course, a recording that is as dry as possible is the most flexible, in order to adapt it to all possible situations later on. You can always add space - taking away is more difficult. So add some little tail to your taste after recording the violin dry.

All the best
Beat

---------------------------------------------
Here is an example related to an orchestral recording: 

Main microphones 2x Schoeps (above the conductor) 
Solo violin 1x Neumann KM184 (above the violin)


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## JohnG (Jul 17, 2022)

I think the most useful advice is to experiment with the angle and distance of the mic. Try far away, close, and medium; aimed at the fingerboard, above it, and maybe off to the side. Ask your performer to record (and make notes!) so you can compare.

I’m very willing to tolerate extra noise to keep the mic a little further away, but it’s down to you — what YOU like. If you want a distant sound, I don‘t agree with putting the mic super close to the instrument and then trying later to use reverb and EQ etc. to place it sonically further away. I have never been satisfied with that approach and, even if it’s theoretically possible, you have to know more than most composers do in order to bring it off.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 17, 2022)

Beat Kaufmann said:


> For the stereo setup, it is best to choose a stereo configuration that also has a time difference between the microphones (e.g. ORTF not X/Y)


Beat, can I ask why you like ORTF better than XY (or coincident pairs, my lazy choice) for a solo instrument?


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## Joe_D (Jul 17, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Beat, can I ask why you like ORTF better than XY (or coincident pairs, my lazy choice) for a solo instrument?


I'm not Beat, but Beat already gave the reason: 

In XY, signals reaches the mics at almost the same time, therefore the stereo imaging is created by the level difference between the left and right channels.

In ORTF, since the microphones are spaced apart (as are, ahem, our ears), most signals reach the two mics at different times, giving a time-delay signal that our brain is able to use to determine imaging. There is also a level difference (as in XY), so our brain gets considerably more imaging information with ORTF.

XY can be preferable if the signals will later be mixed to mono, as there will be almost no phase cancellation since the signals arrived at the same time. With ORTF, the arrival time difference between the two mics will cause phase cancellation (or reinforcement) at various frequencies when mixed to mono. How big of a problem this will be depends on the circumstance and usage of the signals in a mix.


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## Pier (Jul 17, 2022)

Joe_D said:


> I'm not Beat, but Beat already gave the reason:
> 
> In XY, signals reaches the mics at almost the same time, therefore the stereo imaging is created by the level difference between the left and right channels.
> 
> ...


Yes ORTF has a wider sound in some circumstances but I guess what Nick wanted to know is rather why that would be preferable for a solo instrument.


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## aaronventure (Jul 18, 2022)

Nigel Andreola said:


> Do you recommend we start with a matched pair of NT55?


Yes.


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## Beat Kaufmann (Jul 18, 2022)

Joe_D said:


> I'm not Beat, but Beat already gave the reason:
> 
> In XY, signals reaches the mics at almost the same time, therefore the stereo imaging is created by the level difference between the left and right channels.
> 
> ...


Thank you Joe_D
I couldn't have said it better myself. 

If you want a mono compatible stereo configuration then the M/S configuration is good choice as well. It offers a more beautiful spatial image than XY. Unfortunately, M/S requires either a special M/S microphone, or you build an M/S configuration yourself. Then one microphone with an 8 as characteristic is necessary. The other can be a cardioid or an omni. Not everyone necessarily has such a microphone with an 8 in his collection...



Pier said:


> ORTF...but I guess what Nick wanted to know is rather why that would be preferable for a solo instrument.


Although a violin, a flute, or even other small instruments are more or less mono sound sources, they are "acoustic" instruments. 
This means, we are used to hearing these instruments "spatially" as well. So it is not a question of using stereo miking to reproduce the violin broadly like an organ, but to place it in a room. ORTF is good because the microphone distance is similar to our ears. In headphones it sounds very convincing - but also over loudspeakers. Because the localization of a sound source is also good with ORTF, the violin remains - despite stereo - a punctual sound source. M/S is also suitable, because the violin is actually recorded mono (with the cardioid mic), with the 8s microphone still the stereo space is added. AB-stereo is not very suitable because the localization is poor. So the violin then sounds wonderfully spatial, but it does not sound exactly from one place, but somehow from everywhere. So AB-stereo is therefore better suited for large instruments (choir, organ, piano,...) With a choir, you don't want to be able to locate each singer individually, but rather perceive the whole choir as "one instrument". AB gives that nice stereo sound we know without "seeing" each single singer.
All of those different stereo setups have their advantages and disadvantages - which leads to the different preferred areas of application.
------------------------------------
Of course, it always depends on the effort you want to put in. Here at the example of a cello - possible microphones for a more elaborate recording... 




A big problem here is the compensation of the time differences, and that in the end a cello is reproduced from the mix of all microphones that sounds naturally spatial. Not easy!

Beat


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## proggermusic (Jul 18, 2022)

@Nick Batzdorf – Frequency plots never tell the whole story, but yeah, that looks pretty accurate for how the AT4050 I've used behaves. They're very very good mics, particularly for the price (as with the other AT40xx), and you'll be hard-pressed to find a better multi-pattern LDC in that range, for sure. And you're right, the 4033 is a medium-sized capsule, a bit smaller than the 4040 ad 4050 caps, plus it's electret! But for whatever reason, its odd mix of ingredients makes for a great little mic.

Incidentally, in case you haven't heard about them: the real heir to the AKG throne these days is Austrian Audio. They're former AKG engineers who bought the old facility in Vienna after Samsung bought AKG and gutted it, moving all production to Hungary or southeast Asia. Austrian Audio is doing great stuff, and they're reasonably priced too. The same people who made the old AKG capsules by hand are making them for Austrian in the same facility with very high standards. If I'm ever in the market for a 414-like mic, I'm skipping AKG and going for an Austrian OC818, no question. (They're also excellent mics for acoustic instruments but they're out of OP's budget, probably! Not by much, though.)


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## ChrisHarrison (Jul 18, 2022)

Cool! I think it’s important to go around the space and try some different rooms for the sound. I have an AT4040 pair and it’s all I’ve used for everything since I got them when I was 15.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 18, 2022)

proggermusic said:


> @Nick Batzdorf – Frequency plots never tell the whole story, but yeah, that looks pretty accurate for how the AT4050 I've used behaves. They're very very good mics, particularly for the price (as with the other AT40xx), and you'll be hard-pressed to find a better multi-pattern LDC in that range, for sure. And you're right, the 4033 is a medium-sized capsule, a bit smaller than the 4040 ad 4050 caps, plus it's electret! But for whatever reason, its odd mix of ingredients makes for a great little mic.
> 
> Incidentally, in case you haven't heard about them: the real heir to the AKG throne these days is Austrian Audio. They're former AKG engineers who bought the old facility in Vienna after Samsung bought AKG and gutted it, moving all production to Hungary or southeast Asia. Austrian Audio is doing great stuff, and they're reasonably priced too. The same people who made the old AKG capsules by hand are making them for Austrian in the same facility with very high standards. If I'm ever in the market for a 414-like mic, I'm skipping AKG and going for an Austrian OC818, no question. (They're also excellent mics for acoustic instruments but they're out of OP's budget, probably! Not by much, though.)


Thanks.

Not to nitpick (but instead to nitpick  ), I wouldn't really use "for the price" when describing the AT4050. Sure there are better mics available, but... okay, obligatory car analogy: it's sort of like saying a BMW 325i is good for the price.


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## Nigel Andreola (Jul 18, 2022)

Thank you everyone for your knowledgeable, detailed and thoughtful help! My sister and I can now make an informed purchase.


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## proggermusic (Jul 19, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Not to nitpick (but instead to nitpick  ), I wouldn't really use "for the price" when describing the AT4050. Sure there are better mics available, but... okay, obligatory car analogy: it's sort of like saying a BMW 325i is good for the price.


Oh don't worry, I can nitpick about mics all day!

There are quite a few mics that I prefer to the ATs at this point, but I'm very spoiled and have access to high-end stuff. I've been lucky to be a session musician for a long time, working with some great studios before putting together my own at home, so I was able to develop some pretty specific tastes when it comes to what I like to record on. The Neumann u87ai works best for me, personally, even more (thankfully) than the uber-expensive vintage Neumanns and RCAs I've gotten to track on in the past, so the 87 is what I use for nearly all of my work. I'd seldom pick the 4050 over the 87 for most applications, given the choice – but if all I had to work with was a 4050, I'd be perfectly happy, it's extremely practical and useful, does its job with thorough competence!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 19, 2022)

proggermusic said:


> Oh don't worry, I can nitpick about mics all day!
> 
> There are quite a few mics that I prefer to the ATs at this point, but I'm very spoiled and have access to high-end stuff. I've been lucky to be a session musician for a long time, working with some great studios before putting together my own at home, so I was able to develop some pretty specific tastes when it comes to what I like to record on. The Neumann u87ai works best for me, personally, even more (thankfully) than the uber-expensive vintage Neumanns and RCAs I've gotten to track on in the past, so the 87 is what I use for nearly all of my work. I'd seldom pick the 4050 over the 87 for most applications, given the choice – but if all I had to work with was a 4050, I'd be perfectly happy, it's extremely practical and useful, does its job with thorough competence!



Yes.

I'm just talking about a typical project studio context, in which most people - even with very serious set-ups - may have one or three exotic mics but then fill in with more proletarian ones.

We don't disagree, though - it's not an exotic mic.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 19, 2022)

Pier said:


> Yes ORTF has a wider sound in some circumstances but I guess what Nick wanted to know is rather why that would be preferable for a solo instrument.


That's right.

Again, I'm not disagreeing, just curious.


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## ZenBYD (Jul 25, 2022)

There's good stuff in this thread 

ideally, 2 x Royer Ribbons - spaced or XY depending on how wide you want it - into an API or Neve pre... then into your DAW. At that point you've got the chain down, to make it sound better you need a better violin or a better violinist (in this case, I know that's not possible!)

there's a new Neve audio interface in town which might be worth a look. royers aren't cheap but you can rent them if you need just a couple days with them.


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