# VEP Multiport template for logic??



## reddognoyz (Mar 10, 2015)

It's been my understanding that the core load in Logic is much better balanced with instruments being hosted in their own vframes in Logic. Is this still the case? Is using the multiport template from VEP counter to this ?? Or have there been inprovements in Logic and/or VEP that make using a multiport solution in Logic a better option these days

From VSL:



"Dear Logic & Vienna Ensemble PRO 5 users, 

We have just uploaded the brandnew 16 Port Multiport Template Song for Logic X PRO 10.1 or higher!

Up to 256 MIDI Channels available within 1 VE PRO instance (without using Event Input Plug-ins!!)
No more dropouts and hanging notes due to the increased internal buffer size since Logic PRO X 10.1

Check out the great overview in this starting template, conveniently organized with Track Stacks and documented in the updated VE PRO 5 manual (page 45)."


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 10, 2015)

I'd be interested to hear your results if you have the patience to try. 

For me the main advantage to separate instances is just convenience.


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## Louis XIV (Mar 10, 2015)

reddognoyz @ Tue Mar 10 said:


> Check out the great overview in this starting template, conveniently organized with Track Stacks and documented in the updated VE PRO 5 manual (page 45)."


Hi,
I had a look at the Manual p45 and there is a download link to some templates but I could not find any new Template for Logic X 10.1. Could you provide a direct link to it so I can try it out?
Thanks,

L


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## dgburns (Mar 10, 2015)

Stuart-
logic used to be able to process 127 data events,now it has been raised to over 500.Not knowing the real number,I was told VSL tested it and got over 500 events before dropouts started occurring.Vsl also said that their vepro plugin needed to divide this number by three to get the real number of available data events that vepro would handle.This was a while back,and a promise of only a divide by two was in the pipeline in a future update to vepro.So for the old lpx and lp9,that meant 127 divided by three,which is not alot of data events to process,and data dropouts could easily be achieved with a modest amount of cc data across midi channels,especially on the higher numbers as Logic processes data from midi chn 1 and going up to midi chn 16 last.
While we may not need more then some midi notes and a bit of cc11 and cc1 for the most part,it is still light years behind Cubase,which can handle over 16000 events per the same multiport.Again not knowing the real number,I say this with some caution that I approximate the numbers.

The main problem with the multiport is the data dropout issue.You just won't know when data is just not getting through if you have a dense amount of midi being generated.Because of this,using more vep connections COULD avoid the issue if you are concerned,but it's a tradeoff to more ethernet traffic and general overhead.Balancing cpu load in Logic doesn't seem to be an issue for me if I use mutliports or not.Others may have other experiences,but the general vibe is to run more connections,as Logic seems to handle this well.No doubt Kay Asher has advised you as such anyway.
the fact that the new versin has a larger data capacity,and that vepro can,or will soon only divide the number in half,shows some improvement is upon us.
one thing you can do is bounce out sections of midi as audio to avoid the bottleneck,or if you're concerned,it's what I've gotten into the habit of doing if I hear strange stuff start to happen on playback.


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## marclawsonmusic (Mar 10, 2015)

reddognoyz @ Tue Mar 10 said:


> It's been my understanding that the core load in Logic is much better balanced with instruments being hosted in their own vframes in Logic. Is this still the case? Is using the multiport template from VEP counter to this ?? Or have there been inprovements in Logic and/or VEP that make using a multiport solution in Logic a better option these days
> 
> From VSL:
> 
> ...


I spent dozens of hours toying with my Logic / VEPro setup trying to squeeze as much horsepower out of it as possible, and my experience was that Logic's CPU use is based on how many *multi-instruments* you have active (either in Live Mode or Playback), versus how many *instrument plugins* you are using.

So, let's say you squeeze 256 VI's into one viframe and connect to it using a _single _VEPro Software Instrument plugin. With the multiport environment, you will still have 16 multi-instruments tied to that Software Instrument (one per MIDI port), and if you are recording on _any_ of those multis, then all of them will be 'active', and thus consume more CPU than if you had 16 instrument plugins pointed at 16 viframes (you would only be using one at a time).

At least, this was my experience... and why I settled on Jay's approach of having more instances / instruments. I even took things a step further and leave my VEPro instances bypassed / deactivated until I need them. My CPU meter barely budges even with 550 MIDI tracks.

Anyway, I'm certainly not knocking the multiport environment. If you get it to work, then kudos to you. It's just that Logic doesn't care as much about having lots of Software Instrument plugins compared to some other DAWs.


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## marclawsonmusic (Mar 10, 2015)

dgburns @ Tue Mar 10 said:


> Stuart-
> logic used to be able to process 127 data events,now it has been raised to over 500.Not knowing the real number,I was told VSL tested it and got over 500 events before dropouts started occurring.Vsl also said that their vepro plugin needed to divide this number by three to get the real number of available data events that vepro would handle.This was a while back,and a promise of only a divide by two was in the pipeline in a future update to vepro.So for the old lpx and lp9,that meant 127 divided by three,which is not alot of data events to process,and data dropouts could easily be achieved with a modest amount of cc data across midi channels,especially on the higher numbers as Logic processes data from midi chn 1 and going up to midi chn 16 last.
> While we may not need more then some midi notes and a bit of cc11 and cc1 for the most part,it is still light years behind Cubase,which can handle over 16000 events per the same multiport.Again not knowing the real number,I say this with some caution that I approximate the numbers.


I ran into this 'glitch' as well and submitted a fairly detailed analysis to VSL on it last year. Martin was kind enough to work with me to determine the root cause, which was that Logic had an internal buffer size of *127 simultaneous MIDI events *that could be sent to a Software Instrument plugin. This is further reduced by VSL's multiport environment, which adds two additional MIDI messages for every single MIDI event that occurs (these are MSB / LSB codes that route the MIDI message to the correct 'port').

So, dgburns is exactly right, the 127 event limit got shrunk even further by 1/3, which is why people had problems with dropped notes / events. I believe Martin said the new limit in Logic 10.1 is 512, which is a modest improvement, but it is still cut by 1/3 due to the way the multiport environment works.

If anyone wants to go into super-hacker mode, I actually re-worked the multiport environment to only use 1 additional MIDI message, so you could conceivably get 256 simultaneous MIDI events. PM me if you want details...

Anyway, good times. I'm glad my template is running OK without all these shenanigans. I spent way too many hours getting it sorted and have no desire to start over again. If you try it out, Stuart, keep us posted in case you are THE ONE who achieves a higher state of nirvana.


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## Audio Birdi (Mar 10, 2015)

marclawsonmusic @ Wed 11 Mar said:


> My CPU meter barely budges even with 550 midi tracks.



Hi there Marc, how did you manage to squeeze 550 midi tracks out of logic? :o. 

I keep on getting stung with the 255 track limit whilst I complete my template in Logic,

Thanks in advance.


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## marclawsonmusic (Mar 10, 2015)

KaBirdi @ Tue Mar 10 said:


> marclawsonmusic @ Wed 11 Mar said:
> 
> 
> > My CPU meter barely budges even with 550 midi tracks.
> ...


I am not sure what the 255 track limit is? Maybe 255 software instrument tracks?

I have about 70 software instrument tracks - one for each instance of VEPro. I then have a multi-instrument in the environment with however many MIDI channels I need for that software instrument / VEPro instance. 

From there, I create External MIDI tracks (one for each channel - about 550 now) and reassign them to the appropriate MIDI channel on the multi-instrument. I put these in folder track stacks for convenience.

I then setup busses for all my software instruments into groups (generally by library cause I apply the same kind of FX by library). But, I can still add FX at the instrument level too if I need to.

Anyway, there are some limitations with this approach, but I am able to get what I need out of it... (for now)

At one time, I seriously considered switching to Cubase because it can handle so much more workload, but I have invested too much time into Logic so I haven't given up... yet.


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## Audio Birdi (Mar 10, 2015)

marclawsonmusic @ Wed 11 Mar said:


> KaBirdi @ Tue Mar 10 said:
> 
> 
> > marclawsonmusic @ Wed 11 Mar said:
> ...



Yep. I'm mainly using software instruments. Some multi-timbal / multi-output. 

So you can have an unlimited amount of external midi tracks within logic? Great news :D. Are you using the normal "external midi" option that logic provides or the "instrument" layer / object within the environment?

I've got 68 instances of VEP in instrument tracks right now. Some multi-instrument as some instances of VEP consist of percussion patches. 

How do you go about mixing within logic using thi setup method ? Via each external midi track or using the VEP software tracks / multi-output tracks?

Thanks.


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## marclawsonmusic (Mar 11, 2015)

KaBirdi @ Tue Mar 10 said:


> So you can have an unlimited amount of external midi tracks within logic? Great news :D. Are you using the normal "external midi" option that logic provides or the "instrument" layer / object within the environment?


Not sure about 'unlimited', but I can verify there isn't a 255 track limit with External MIDI tracks. Yes, I am just using the normal 'External MIDI' option when creating new tracks.



KaBirdi @ Tue Mar 10 said:


> How do you go about mixing within logic using thi setup method ? Via each external midi track or using the VEP software tracks / multi-output tracks?


Each Software Instrument / VEPro instance has its own stereo (or multiout) return. I have these routed to busses - so for instrument tracks HS V1, V2, VA, VC and CB, those go to a main 'Hollywood Strings' bus. Most of the time I mix at the bus level, but can always go back to the instrument if needed.

Hope this is helpful.


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## EastWest Lurker (Mar 11, 2015)

Personally, I think the Multiport layer creates more issues than it solves.

Ocam's razor.


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## reddognoyz (Mar 11, 2015)

I am with Jay on this.
I just set up a new template and went with the one instance per instrument set-up. working well. 

I am a DP guy and VSL is in the middle of a pretty significant update for VEP-DP. I was really wondering if there was a similar quantum improvement for Logic.


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## A.G (Mar 11, 2015)

The NRPN (LSB/MSB) Port recalling method is not good at all. It triples the original MIDI message which boosts the MIDI buffer (bandwidth) specially with continuous Control Change messages. A few Audiogrocery (VEP) customers asked me if I can add a VEP Port recall feature in the upcoming Logic Articulation Maps PRO (AM-Extra 3.0). There is no problem to add such feature so you can assign the Port number in each Articulation Map. However I do not love the idea of the current NRPN method. I sent a request to the VSL support if there is a better way (using a Bank message combined with any other one or even NRPN) to send such Port recall data one time *only* (during the Port change). I'm still waiting for the VSL support reply.


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## EastWest Lurker (Mar 11, 2015)

Thanks for weighing in on this Ivan and confirming the conclusions I reached.

Ivan knows the Logic Pro environment like few others.


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## 100khz (Mar 17, 2015)

marclawsonmusic @ Wed Mar 11 said:


> KaBirdi @ Tue Mar 10 said:
> 
> 
> > I have about 70 software instrument tracks - one for each instance of VEPro. I then have a multi-instrument in the environment with however many MIDI channels I need for that software instrument / VEPro instance.
> ...



how do you address automation in this template system? Whats your workflow for automation in multiport template?


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## marclawsonmusic (Mar 17, 2015)

100khz @ Tue Mar 17 said:


> how do you address automation in this template system? Whats your workflow for automation in multiport template?


Just to be clear, I don't use the multiport environment layer. My setup is pretty much the 'Jay Asher' configuration, with some tweaks / changes based on my own workflow needs.

In terms of automation, I use MIDI CCs for most things. If you need track automation, it has to be done at the software instrument track or one of the bus tracks. Whenever I have needed to do this, it has worked for my purposes. YMMV of course.


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## Audio Birdi (Mar 17, 2015)

100khz @ Tue 17 Mar said:


> how do you address automation in this template system? Whats your workflow for automation in multiport template?



Hi there 100khz,

Upon checking Jay Asher's own topics on setting up templates, i decided to go for 1 VEP instance per instrument track.

I use multi-output based VEP instances, so this way, I can split up individual patches and give them their own Auxiliary track in order to keep the ability to add inserts / sends per track. Automation can be altered per track this way too, enabling complete flexibility.

I shall be using Audiogrocery's Channel Switcher PRO MIDI FX scripter plug-in to switch articulations of various orchestral instruments. Whilst using the Articulation Mapper PRO plugin to assign keyswitches to CC messages and be able to use automation based articulation switching for pre-configured keyswitch master patches. 
This will all be done via Liine Lemur.

Here's a link to my template so far. (Logic Pro X) All instances are decoupled so you won't be loading any instruments within VEP. If anybody has any suggestions, advice is always appreciated! 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2X4jSlPnxifOC1FMFhPMEtlRmc/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2X4jS ... sp=sharing)

Thanks.

EDIT: By using this method, I ended up using 10% less CPU power on my slave PC!


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## 100khz (Mar 17, 2015)

thanks marc and kabir. I am also inclining towards 1 instrument with 1 VEP instance approach as Jay has suggested. Worried about screen real estate with expected VEP viframes to reach above 25. Since i bounce tracks immediately, i will disable VEP instances immediately after use.

Kabir, thanks for the template link, can't open it though, logic got struck at loading.

To sum up what i get:

A. 1 VEP instance per instrument track.

B. Aux tracks of the multi timbral VEP instance - for inserts and automation.

C. Large number (above 25) VEP viframes distributed on master and slave computers.

D. Since i bounce the tracks immediately, will disable the VEP AU to save CPU and LAN bandwidth.

Issues:

1. Distributing stuff in various viframes containing parts of same instrument type in more than 1 viframe - So i think a naming like woodwinds 1, 2, 3 can be done.


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## Audio Birdi (Mar 17, 2015)

100khz @ Tue 17 Mar said:


> thanks marc and kabir.
> 
> Kabir, thanks for the template link, can't open it though, logic got struck at loading.



There's 68 instances of VEP in that template.  

You may have to give it a while for everything to open, unless it's gone and decided to crash whilst opening :(.


Edit: 
turns out I can't do a straight swap and keep all the aux channels in Logic, it'll just go back to the single track and I've have to press the small "+" to get the multi-out aux channels back and re-name everything again. :/. 

that's how I've gone about using a patch per track and keeping the ability to insert individual EQ, sends, automation per track if you wanted to know .


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## windshore (Mar 17, 2015)

Sorry for what is a boneheaded question, but your VEP server window has to be out of control with dozens of instances right? 

There's no way to organize it right? If you need to get to a VEP instance you must raise from the plugin in your DAW...?


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## Audio Birdi (Mar 17, 2015)

windshore @ Tue 17 Mar said:


> Sorry for what is a boneheaded question, but your VEP server window has to be out of control with dozens of instances right?
> 
> There's no way to organize it right? If you need to get to a VEP instance you must raise from the plugin in your DAW...?



I have ticked "open instances minimized upon load" within the preferences section of VEP Server. So window upon window won't be cascading the whole screen. I use Microsoft Remote desktop to connect to my slave .

I've planned out all the instances and instruments I wanted in my template inside a spreadsheet before going ahead and building it . I did this to check how much RAM would be used overall, turns out I am using 10gb less than intended as I didn't account for the same samples being contained in similar patches (e.g. slur legato / port and staccato slur legato / portomento).

Annoyingly you can't move instances around after creating them inside the server window, but the planning of this template helped with not needing to open up instances.

Since I've named everything coherently, finding tracks / instances / patches between VEP and Logic is very easy in terms of navigation.

Images are attached to this post.


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## windshore (Mar 17, 2015)

ok, that makes sense - numbering the instances in VEP. Thanks for tip!


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## Audio Birdi (Mar 17, 2015)

No problemo! 

The annoying thing is that even if you change the number of the instance, there is no way of having it automatically moved to the correct order in where that number is supposed to go :(. 

Something to watch out for, hence planning helps .


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## windshore (Mar 17, 2015)

Crap! lol... thanks for the warning.
You'd think Vienna would figure out a better way to organize!


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## 100khz (Mar 18, 2015)

Kabir thats amazing. thanks for sharing. VEP instance naming seems great. I like the fact the instances are 55. So, you have them all connected all the time or enable them on need basis? And are these on a slave computer taking LAN bandwidth?


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## Audio Birdi (Mar 18, 2015)

100khz @ Wed 18 Mar said:


> Kabir thats amazing. thanks for sharing. VEP instance naming seems great. I like the fact the instances are 55. So, you have them all connected all the time or enable them on need basis? And are these on a slave computer taking LAN bandwidth?



All instances remain loaded at all times. There are 68 instances in total but can't show them all at once due to screen resolution . 

All my samples run off a slave. Using external HDDs right now but I intend on buying SSDs once I have the funds. Need 1.6tb worth but shall invest in 2tb in total eventually . 

Kind regards,
Kabir


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## 100khz (Mar 18, 2015)

Good to know that 68 of them are connected all the time. Will try it with my template. 

regarding automation on aux tracks, we need to make a track out of a aux track to automate it. So, isn;t it duplication of tracks in the track list? Is it a workflow hindrance?


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## Audio Birdi (Mar 18, 2015)

If you have each patch as a Seperate midi channel and Seperate instance of PLAY/Kontakt within a VEP instance, you can then select a 16xstereo version of VEP within logic. Go to the mixer page and then click the small + symbol to get your multi output aux tracks. Doing it this way will avoid duplication of tracks 

Hope this help.


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## EastWest Lurker (Mar 18, 2015)

And all those auxes go to 1 core. Not a good idea IMHO.


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## Audio Birdi (Mar 18, 2015)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed 18 Mar said:


> And all those auxes go to 1 core. Not a good idea IMHO.




Do you mean whilst playing in notes whilst recording, Jay? 

As that does occur when trying to record on any instrument / aux track. 

But when using a blank audio track when playing back, all the processing is evenly distributed.


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## 100khz (Mar 18, 2015)

KaBirdi @ Wed Mar 18 said:


> If you have each patch as a Seperate midi channel and Seperate instance of PLAY/Kontakt within a VEP instance, you can then select a 16xstereo version of VEP within logic. Go to the mixer page and then click the small + symbol to get your multi output aux tracks. Doing it this way will avoid duplication of tracks
> 
> Hope this help.



yeah, but when you automate these aux tracks for volume etc, we will need to create an automation track for these aux tracks. These aux automation tracks will be duplicate since there will an original instrument track and then an automation aux track sitting next to it in the track list. Thats what i meant.


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## marclawsonmusic (Mar 18, 2015)

windshore @ Tue Mar 17 said:


> Crap! lol... thanks for the warning.
> You'd think Vienna would figure out a better way to organize!


Hey Mark,

Martin chimed in on an earlier thread and said re-ordering instances is something he is looking at implementing in a future release. It will certainly make things easier for those of us with larger metaframes.

Best,
Marc


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## samphony (Mar 18, 2015)

marclawsonmusic @ Wed Mar 18 said:


> windshore @ Tue Mar 17 said:
> 
> 
> > Crap! lol... thanks for the warning.
> ...



That are good news. I've made a feature request at VSL formus a while ago for exactly that


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## windshore (Mar 18, 2015)

Very good news and something that is past due really. Keeping all this stuff organized is a bigger and bigger problem every year.


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## esencia (Apr 19, 2015)

KaBirdi @ Wed Mar 18 said:


> windshore @ Tue 17 Mar said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry for what is a boneheaded question, but your VEP server window has to be out of control with dozens of instances right?
> ...



Wow! thank you so much for sharing your setup!

I've just bought VEP 1 month ago, but I could´t imagine that so many VEP instances would fit into one single server without performance issues ! wow
May I ask you a couple of questions?

Whats your ram and cpu for that vep server? and after loading that bunch of instance whats your ram used (probably it'll depend on your kontakt ram load memory setup)

All your instances are base on kontakt inside?

Is it worth to split violin 1 and violin 2 in different instances? 

why is better that than having just one instance for all the strings and use multi outputs within that instance?


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## imgood808 (Oct 10, 2015)

Thank you for this template, it works wonderfully. Are there situations where you still change and route cc's to ve pro or the instruments?

(if so I need a for-dummies tutorial as I have not been able to find one yet)


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## esencia (Oct 11, 2015)

Hi all,

I think that another way to work is.. instead of using a big template with environment objects , we could try to build Logic Patches that will include the multi with VEP instance within for a specific instrument section or so..
I've been chatting with Ivan (a great guy), about this issue trying to find the perfect solution.. But it´s not so obvious..

Imagine that you have an external mixer control as artist Mix or mackie or whatever.. That´s really useful when you need to create volumen&pan automation and so.. 
And also.. you want to keep the Ivan's Logic Toolkit for articulations adjusted for that specific instruments within that logic patch.. 

The challenge then is .. how to deal with these two requirements to build a easy to use patch that you could load fast within logic to load the right section when you'll really need it...

As you know before Logic v10.2 , there were a bug when you were trying to save a patch with a summing multi instrument…
Now, that issue it´s fixed. But there is still one issue here, if you change the volume of a specific track (as you need to do using your external midi controller as Artist Mix), all of the multi tracks under the same multi will also be modified as they are working as a multi and there is no volume separation per each midi track. 
The only way I know to solve it, is using environment and using several objects that you link to the main multi track, it will be able to split them all.. but.. this configuration (environment objects), cannot be save within the patch (because the environment setup is not saved with patch info).

Different approaches:
1.-Create a software instrument track (not multi instrument), then, select a multi instrument for that track (kontact 16x for example). Then go to mixer, and click in that track to the +,and create aux tracks .. 16x aux tracks. Then you go over each aux channel with right click and create a track for it.. 
Then, you’ll have 16 aux tracks for each of multi midi instruments, and the volumen is independent. BUT, this solution.. has a big problem.. You cannot use scripter with aux tracks, so you won´t be able to manage keyswitching using that tool…unless you create a track for midi and another track with an aux for external volume control..and I think that it will be a little tricky because you'll have duplicated tracks per instrument.

2.-Another proposal from Ivan would be. Draw an Articulation TBA Automation and Volume & Pan RBA for each MIDI Track/Channel of the Multi-Timbral Instrument disabling the "*Control Change 7/10...*" in the Logic MIDI Settings. The problem is that with this method you cannot create the automation directly from external midi artist mixer.

3.-Another option would be using Kontakt Host ID learning and TBA, as well as RBA using same controller CC13 for Volume and CC14 for Pan. But it happens the same with the external mixer...

What do you think about this? don´t you think that would be great to work under this "patches method" instead of loading a big template?
any workaround that you may have found to use patches, external control and Logic toolkit?


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 11, 2015)

I am not a fan of the modular approach but if anyone will find a way to make it viable it is Ivan.


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## kunst91 (Oct 11, 2015)

I have never been able to make multi-timbral work efficiently with Logic, and I think that's because Logic X was designed with a different approach in mind.
The modular approach is definitely interesting, especially for someone with limited processing/RAM, but regardless I think the most efficient way to use Logic X is with mono-timbral instrument tracks.


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## esencia (Oct 11, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> I am not a fan of the modular approach but if anyone will find a way to make it viable it is Ivan.


Why don´t you like this approach? what´s your favourite setup?


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 11, 2015)

Do a search, please. I have explained my preferred VE Pro template workflow many times.

I don't like the modular approach because when I am composing I don't want to have to interrupt the process making decisions on what to load next and waiting to load things.


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## mc_deli (Oct 11, 2015)

esencia said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I think that another way to work is.. instead of using a big template with environment objects , we could try to build Logic Patches that will include the multi with VEP instance within for a specific instrument section or so..
> I've been chatting with Ivan (a great guy), about this issue trying to find the perfect solution.. But it´s not so obvious..
> ...



Brilliant, thanks for posting this. I have been grappling with this for a few months and I have been through these options.
- I am now using Logic patches with multis for everything
- For non articulation switching VIs, like synths, drums etc. I use multis and the + aux track method. These tracks are likely to chop and change and need volume and pan moves during tracking. They don't need scripter.
- For articulation switching VIs, like orchestral, I use VEPro multis with Kontakt/VSL multi-output instruments. These tracks are less likely to need volume changes during tracking. The balance is set in Kontakt/VSL. I then use Ivan's AG Expression Mapper Scripter to see articulations in the automation lane. I am using one Logic multitimb/VEPro for CS2, one for BerlinWW etc. And I add the on/off buttons to the track header to get around the lack of individual track mute!
- For articulation switching solo insts, like Cello, acoustic guitar, they get their own Kontakt instance without VEPro, so the articulation lane is available and easy volume control
- And I have an external MPD232 for CC sliders and Logic's active fader. CC moves are easiest seen in the step editor.
- And I have taken to using summing track stacks for everything
- And I have 24 auxes for bussing/effects and all VEPro based patches in the template from the off

I have only been working like this a few weeks but it seems great so far. The biggest artic-based libs are in VEPro and running more efficiently. The more I use non-orch multis, the more Logic patches I save for faster set ups. For hybrid work this seems really good!

Drawbacks so far:
- Logic always forgets the track header config so I always have to turn on the on/off button feature!
- Sometimes Logic doesn't remember the automation lane setting for a track stack's tracks, so I have to select all the scripter lanes from the drop downs
- It takes a little while to add a new artic-based library due to writing in the Exp Mapper scripter text (but this gets easier after the third time!)
- One VEPro instance (VSL Harp) keeps corrupting and likes to be raised to resume normal service
- Bounce replace all - for mixing - is full of unexpected behaviours (due to how new track stacks are I think)
- I am still working out the best way to handle bus routing and sends with the saved patches - with this modular patch based working, it seems that there is a point during the writing phase of a track when most of the patches have been deployed and that is the time to delete unused tracks and patches and do all bus and send routing.

(Apologies for the long post but I spent so long on this stuff, I hope it is useful for someone else. Thanks to Ivan, Jay and others for the help)


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## esencia (Oct 12, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Do a search, please. I have explained my preferred VE Pro template workflow many times.
> 
> I don't like the modular approach because when I am composing I don't want to have to interrupt the process making decisions on what to load next and waiting to load things.


Sorry Jay,

I did not mean to bother you with my question...


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## mc_deli (Oct 12, 2015)

... oh yeah but the two things that would really help, well three things:
- Aux tracks should accept RBA (and/or scripter should be available on all track types)
- All multitimbral midi tracks should have independent volume/pan (so we wouldn't have this bizarre choice of different ways to make multitimbral VIs)
- The mixer window should be more configurable (with a mix of aux types, including multitimbral midi tracks, the mixer window is no longer navigable)


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 12, 2015)

esencia said:


> Sorry Jay,
> 
> I did not mean to bother you with my question...



Not a bother at all, just saving some myself time and effort writing a long and redundant post. If you cannot find it however, then I will be happy to do so again.


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## A.G (Oct 12, 2015)

Hi guys, here are some news about my latest tests.

*Pros*

Here is the test setup:
*1.* Some time ago I posted a free Environment Macro tool which optimizes CC98 & CC99 and shows the VEP Port number as 1, 2 etc not zero based 0 ,1 ,2 etc. I created a simple Logic Template with say four Multis and
four AG VEP Port Macro tools patched after each Multi Instrument in the Environment. In this case we have
four Ports and 64 MIDI tracks (Channels 1-16 per Multi).
*2.* You insert four MIDI FX Scripters into the Software Instrument (VEP) Channel Strip. You load the AG Multi Tracks Switcher into each Scripter - as you know each Plugin supports up to 16 MIDI Channels (Articulation Channel Menus). You create one Software Track in the Main Window where you create Automation lanes for each Scripter 1,2,3,4.
*3.* You load four Kontakt Instruments in VEP and set each Kontakt instance to Plugin/Port 1, 2, 3, 4.
For example Kontakt 1 (Woodwinds); K2 (Brass); K3 (Percussion); K4 (Strings).
*4.* You create Articulations Maps for Scripter 1, (Woodwinds); Scripter 2 (Brass) etc.
*Note:* You have to set CC98 & CC99 for each Articulation Map cause we need that for the VEP Multiport. You have to go to each AG Multi Switcher Preferences ->Message Order, enable this Setting and set the following message order: Program Change 1st; CC_A 2nd; CC_B 3rd; KS 4th. We need that order cause CC98 & CC99 must be sent before KS1 or KS2 when you switch an Articulation Map.
*5.* Finally you can compose music and record MIDI Regions for each Multi Instrument in Logic. You go to the Software Instrument track (VEP) and create Automation lanes for:
1. Scripter 1 (Piccolo, Flute, Oboe etc);
2. Scripter 2 (Trumpet 1, Trumpet 2, Trombone etc)
end so on.

You can draw Articulation Control points automation for each Instrument and everything works as expected however there are some problems (see Cons below)

*Cons*

*1.* It is not comfortable to go back and forth to the VEP Automation lanes and the MIDI Tracks though you have stack/folder tracks. Each Automation lane must be under its MIDI Track - this is best.
*2.* When you close the Automation View and open it again the Articulations lanes are gone - they stack to one. This is a serious problem which Apple had to fix long time ago.
*3.* To be honest I did not note any RAM optimization.
*4.* VSL guarantee that there is enough MIDI bandwidth for the tripled MIDI Messages. As a long time MIDI expert I do not believe that (I have spent ages in the Logic Environment researches and tests) - the MIDI bandwidth can be boosted easily with multiple continuous CC coming from several Multis at a given time in case it is tripled.

So for now I think we need a clear approach. Maybe a powerful complex Environment Macro Ensemble with Smart Articulation Maps Preset Headers (I have designed such for Logic SC Mixer snapshots and RMX Power Control), or we must wait for VST3.
There are some other alternatives such as using Multi-Timbral Instruments with the Logic External Instrument, IAC , AG Articulation Switcher and VEP as stand alone multi port instance. In this scenario you need a hardware with multiple audio I/O or to use some tools such as Soundflower etc.

Best,
Ivan


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 12, 2015)

A.G said:


> *Cons*
> 
> *4.* VSL guarantee that there is enough MIDI bandwidth for the tripled MIDI Messages. As a long time MIDI expert I do not believe that (I have spent ages in the Logic Environment researches and tests) - the MIDI bandwidth can be boosted easily with multiple continuous CC coming from the several Multis at a given time in case it is tripled.



i agree, Ivan.


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## samphony (Oct 12, 2015)

Just wait until the new AU3 version of VEP will be available!


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## Noizmak3r (Jan 10, 2016)

I tried this modular approach of vframe per instrument and it made my cpu usage skyrocket even when nothing was playing in logic. Why is this?


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## vewilya (Jan 10, 2016)

samphony said:


> Just wait until the new AU3 version of VEP will be available!


Am I wrong to assume that we can expect a Logic update in the near future that'll implement the AU3 changes that El Capitan provided??? I have been wrong before!!
But this would be a game changer for us Logic users wouldn't it?


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## samphony (Jan 10, 2016)

vewilya said:


> Am I wrong to assume that we can expect a Logic update in the near future that'll implement the AU3 changes that El Capitan provided??? I have been wrong before!!
> But this would be a game changer for us Logic users wouldn't it?



I don't think it will be a total game changer but rather another opportunity to setup and connect stuff. It might introduce other problems like the ones cubase users experience in regards to asioguard and VEP.


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## vewilya (Jan 10, 2016)

samphony said:


> I don't think it will be a total game changer but rather another opportunity to setup and connect stuff. It might introduce other problems like the ones cubase users experience in regards to asioguard and VEP.


Yes. Game changer is a too strong term perhaps. Wouldn't know about Cubase but I've been fiddling around with DP9 and a huge template (700 or so tracks). I set it up with the Vepro5-MAS plugins and put them in v-racks. Works great I have to say!


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## snattack (Jan 13, 2016)

Probably already been written somewhere, but just wanted to add this: I migrated to Logic recently, and I'm using a combo of the VEP multiport template (for Percussion) and single instrument channels.

The biggest disadvantage imo is the inability to use Midifx scripts on midi channels added through the environment multi. Also, it sucks in core distribution.


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