# New Spitfire and Charlie Clouser collab?!



## Toecutter (Jul 19, 2021)

Unexpected but awesome, I'm ready!

"Our next library was created with the composer of one of the most frightening franchises of all time. Who could it be?"


----------



## Alchemedia (Jul 19, 2021)

Charlie Carpenter? 
Looking forward to the SAW EVOs.


----------



## Toecutter (Jul 19, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> John Carpenter?


That's Charlie's place


----------



## jononotbono (Jul 19, 2021)

I had a feeling this was gonna happen from a couple of years ago and Charlie attending NAMM and speaking with SA. Plus some CH videos featuring him.

I’m very much looking forward to this


----------



## davidson (Jul 19, 2021)

I might be jumping the gun, but hopefully this could mean a Trevor Morris viking library is in the works too


----------



## Mornats (Jul 19, 2021)

Ears wide open for this one!


----------



## dunamisstudio (Jul 19, 2021)




----------



## Daniel James (Jul 20, 2021)

SO fucking ready for whatever this is. Charlie has an ear for quality 

-DJ


----------



## Tfis (Jul 20, 2021)

Police Academy brass band!!!


----------



## styledelk (Jul 20, 2021)

I guess I should look up who this is.


----------



## doctoremmet (Jul 20, 2021)

styledelk said:


> I guess I should look up who this is.


Do a search on the forum. He is a very valued contributor. Also a composer of great film scores, and a former member of seminal band Nine Inch Nails. A fantastic musician, a very inspiring composer and a very generous person, who shares a lot on here, answers questions with patience and really cares about this website’s mission statement (“musicians helping musicians”).


----------



## styledelk (Jul 20, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Do a search on the forum. He is a very valued contributor. Also a composer of great film scores, and a former member of seminal band Nine Inch Nails. A fantastic musician, a very inspiring composer and a very generous person, who shares a lot on here, answers questions with patience and really cares about this website’s mission statement (“musicians helping musicians”).


I knew I'd seen the name appearing here a bunch! I haven't actually seen any of the films and shows he's scored (or really got into NIN), but I can definitely see the overall mood working now.


----------



## ChristopherDoucet (Jul 20, 2021)

Utterly exciting!


----------



## VSriHarsha (Jul 20, 2021)

The Horror Toolkit ?


----------



## Toecutter (Jul 20, 2021)

22 July


I was expecting some SAWey sounds and got big percussion instead! So, not a one-trick pony kind of library, I like that... CC Toolkit?


----------



## muziksculp (Jul 20, 2021)

*Interesting !*


----------



## Zedcars (Jul 20, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> *Interesting !*








Is "interesting" a euphemism for "sucks"?


I've noted over the years, when someone says, "interesting piece" or something similar, it inevitably precedes a lot of negative commentary. I've heard the word thrown around as a the only comment, as in, "interesting," which also feels like a subtle indication that the person either doesn't...




vi-control.net


----------



## Toecutter (Jul 20, 2021)

Zedcars said:


> Is "interesting" a euphemism for "sucks"?
> 
> 
> I've noted over the years, when someone says, "interesting piece" or something similar, it inevitably precedes a lot of negative commentary. I've heard the word thrown around as a the only comment, as in, "interesting," which also feels like a subtle indication that the person either doesn't...
> ...


@muziksculp is triggered by the lack of strings in the video XD


----------



## SupremeFist (Jul 20, 2021)

Yeah but what is the legato like?


----------



## Alchemedia (Jul 20, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> Yeah but what is the legato like?


A Hack Saw?


----------



## KEM (Jul 20, 2021)

I can definitely get behind this!!


----------



## charlieclouser (Jul 21, 2021)

....


----------



## KEM (Jul 21, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> ....


LETS GO


----------



## Ollie (Jul 21, 2021)

Only runs in EXS24.


----------



## Daniel James (Jul 21, 2021)

Ollie said:


> Only runs in EXS24.


----------



## onnomusic (Jul 21, 2021)

Ollie said:


> Only runs in EXS24.


That would be so epic. I think SA at least owns him to release it in EXS as well


----------



## Drundfunk (Jul 21, 2021)

Guys, I think I beat depression! For a whole year I didn't really give a shit about any of this, but now I feel kinda excited... . What a weird feeling....


----------



## jcrosby (Jul 21, 2021)

KEM said:


> LETS GO


of your butt?


----------



## wilifordmusic (Jul 21, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> ....


Okay.


----------



## davinwv (Jul 21, 2021)

wilifordmusic said:


> Okay.


I have an 11-year-old son. When he was younger and wanted us to get ready to see something amazing, he would say, "Prepare your buttholes!" 🤣


----------



## Alchemedia (Jul 21, 2021)

davinwv said:


> I have an 11-year-old son. When he was younger and wanted us to get ready to see something amazing, he would say, "Prepare your buttholes!" 🤣


Exactly what did that entail?


----------



## wilifordmusic (Jul 21, 2021)

Kinda like this.


----------



## Mike Fox (Jul 21, 2021)

wilifordmusic said:


> Kinda like this.


Or was it more like this?


----------



## Alchemedia (Jul 21, 2021)

Snap snap, grin grin, wink wink, nudge nudge, know whatahmean, know whatahmean, say no more?


----------



## constaneum (Jul 21, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> Yeah but what is the legato like?


A new performance legato called Percussive legato


----------



## davinwv (Jul 22, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> Or was it more like this?


"I'll teach you to be happy . . . I'll teach your grandmother to suck eggs!"

I was a huge Ren & Stimpy fan back in the day!


----------



## Niah2 (Jul 22, 2021)

Ren & Stimpy was a riot !


----------



## tompayu (Jul 22, 2021)

Maybe they should cool it with the new libraries until they fix the old ones...

Still waiting on a patch for Studio Strings Pro where several patches load no samples. And yes - Spitfire know about it. They just don't care.

So, what will be broken in this new library that they'll never fix?! Drum roll, please!


----------



## mussnig (Jul 22, 2021)

As usual, the demo tracks were already posted on soundcloud before the announcement.


----------



## Evans (Jul 22, 2021)

I'm pretty sure I'm more than covered in this area for my needs (minimal as heck), but I'm pretty interested in seeing the UI for such a release. Hopefully, they stretched themselves a bit.


----------



## Stringtree (Jul 22, 2021)

That reverse tempo sync is wicked. One of the best release videos. I'm in trouble because I was supposed to be doing something else and I can't stop watching. Yeah, kinda I want this.


----------



## muziksculp (Jul 22, 2021)

100 GB !


----------



## from_theashes (Jul 22, 2021)

So Damage 2 by Spitfireaudio?

just kidding… but… I mean… kinda xD


----------



## SupremeFist (Jul 22, 2021)

Very disappointed these awesome deafening drums still have the notorious sucking sound in the legatos. It's 2021!


----------



## shropshirelad (Jul 22, 2021)

tompayu said:


> Still waiting on a patch for Studio Strings Pro where several patches load no samples. And yes - Spitfire know about it. They just don't care


I had this issue but they fixed it for me - sent me some updated files a couple of months ago.


----------



## sostenuto (Jul 22, 2021)

from_theashes said:


> So Damage 2 by Spitfireaudio?
> 
> just kidding… but… I mean… kinda xD


Hoping this point gets detailed focus. Non-percussionist here and Damage 2 cost is pennies less. 
Truly want to sort these two from percussionists' perspective.


----------



## GMT (Jul 22, 2021)

I'm only interested if it was obsessively curated in a brutalist architecture glass and steel studio.


----------



## charlieclouser (Jul 22, 2021)

from_theashes said:


> So Damage 2 by Spitfireaudio?
> 
> just kidding… but… I mean… kinda xD


I have Damage2 (and the original as well) and LAMP, JXL, Strezovs... pretty much every single percussion library ever made since the original Bob Clearmountain audio sample CDs. But none of them can give me the sound I want. That's why I still record my own drums for my projects... until now. With Hammers I can finally get my sound in a plugin! Finally!

Put Hammers up next to LAMP / Damage2 / JXL and you should be able to hear the difference between their approaches and ours. 

Don't get me wrong, I have and like all of those libraries, and they're all fine products. But they don't have the sound I picture in my head.... Hammers does.

Hope you all like it as much as I do!


----------



## Daniel James (Jul 22, 2021)

My initial thoughts from seeing the video.

I'll preface this by saying I love Charlies scores, he is an incredible composer and has a great ear for quality. Any critiques I have here are strictly about the product itself and is not meant to be anything personal. One of the reasons I hate brand named libraries, makes critiquing them turn toxic if I say the wrong thing to piss of a fan or even worse the 'brand name' gets offended, which isn't the aim. But here we go.

Firstly the sound is incredibly comparable in tone and size to the Heavyocity Damage and Master Ensemble collection libraries. To the point when I was sent the trailer earlier I thought that's what I was hearing (not knowing the library was a perc library yet) EDIT: I saw Charlies post above that he has all the other perc libraries and they couldn't give him the sound where Hammers does. I can appreciate you have a very very critical ear, particularly for your own library. But to me, Hammers sonically falls right into that mix of libraries you mentioned, no better or worse, but definitely (to me) its in that same ballpark, with the differences being subtle enough I might struggle in a blind test. I might not but that's the initial feeling I got hearing it back. (again I know you disagree there but I can't change how I initially felt it)

Some of the lower sounds seem to have some of that low mid mud collecting sound. That tends to happen more with libraries that are designed to be punchy in isolation but it makes them a bit harder to sit with other elements. The demos on the site don't really layer with much else to demonstrate, but I am sure we will see how they sound raw in a mix soon with user demos. There is one demo with orchestra but in a few ways, it to me didn't impress with the library ability to blend, but that was just one demo.

100gig is too much. Particularly for the somewhat averagely sized instrument list. Again I feel like we have had comparable results for quite a few years with much smaller footprint. I understand the option of extra mics and the such which contribute to these silly file sizes, but I would be interested to see some research done into how many people utilize those and how many would rather just have the basic set up as a separate download so that they can use more libraries per drive. Maybe splitting up the downloads into varying degrees of download size with more mics at the larger sizes.

17gig RAM - In the video premier, Charlies Spitfire player was showing 17gig of ram usage. That seems steep, but with 100gig library I guess like the other Spitfire Player powered library it can stack up quick. Which does worry me, how does the Spitfire player with the streaming? after having it struggle so hard on previous libraries I am always skeptical.

Spitfire Player - I have made my opinions on this quite clear, although I do know that using percussion from their other libraries in the SFP has been a bit more cumbersome that the usual Kontakt approach. Really hoped this one would be the perfect library to introduce multitimbral playback but it seems to still be one instance per patch?

The price seems ok, but just.

The Loops are cool but I feel like I was already hearing very distinct ones repeated in the few demos on Spitfires site already. So I do fear that the cool ones will be spottable super quickly and therefore un-usable long term as is.

On the good side. The tone is very clean and punchy. The low drums sound quite heavyocity but the metallic and reverse sounds are undeniably Charlie sounding. I have heard those types of sounds in the Resident Evil and Saw franchises so to be able to use them in my own work is exciting.

For me, I like the sound of this, particularly the punchy yet not harsh transients but I will probably buy it but more so because I like Charlie's work and I love percussion. Although I fully expect to get very little use out of it, as I do with all Spitfire Player libraries. I also imagine that it would be one of the first libraries to be bumped if I need hard drive space, 100gig for the practical use of what I get from it doesn't justify the hardrive space if I can do the same with DAMAGE.

These are just my opinions. If you see it differently that's all good. Have a great time writing music with it 

-DJ


----------



## muziksculp (Jul 22, 2021)

The 100 GB kills this library for me. I think 20-40 GB would have been attractive. But 100 GB is not.

I really don't want to use up that much space for a Perc library.

Developers : make a note of this, please be mindful about SSD requirements. We have limited space to install libraries.


----------



## SupremeFist (Jul 22, 2021)

GMT said:


> I'm only interested if it was obsessively curated in a brutalist architecture glass and steel studio.


According to the website it was only "curated" once, by Charlie, whereas eg Solstice was curated a full 17 times (iirc) by CH. So I'm worried it's not curated enough.


----------



## SupremeFist (Jul 22, 2021)

I don't get why people complain about 100gb or whatever though. Storage space is just a consumable in this field: it's a cost of doing business, like reams of paper for a writer.


----------



## Evans (Jul 22, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> I don't get why people complain about 100gb or whatever though. Storage space is just a consumable in this field: it's a cost of doing business, like reams of paper for a writer.


I think that's a silly comparison, but I'll stop complaining when drive space costs the same as a stack of paper, then. That's not even considering a lack of available ports for external SSDs and oh-so-many hubs. That's my _real_ problem.


----------



## from_theashes (Jul 22, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> I have Damage2 (and the original as well) and LAMP, JXL, Strezovs... pretty much every single percussion library ever made since the original Bob Clearmountain audio sample CDs. But none of them can give me the sound I want. That's why I still record my own drums for my projects... until now. With Hammers I can finally get my sound in a plugin! Finally!
> 
> Put Hammers up next to LAMP / Damage2 / JXL and you should be able to hear the difference between their approaches and ours.
> 
> ...


Fair enough… and for you as a professionell, I‘m glad you found exactly what you where looking for.
But for hobbyists or people not making a living with composing, it really is a library very close to Damage 2… and most of us have to decide, where to drop those 300 bucks (and many, like myself, already bought D2)
But don’t get me wrong… I‘m really not saying, that it’s a bad thing! It’s a great sounding library and it’s always great to have different libraries with different timbres and features! And some will just grab both^^


----------



## muziksculp (Jul 22, 2021)

Plus, i.e. I have plans to add other libraries that are more important for me, that also need some decent amount of SSD space, so we have priorities, this is not the only library I have to allocate space for.


----------



## SupremeFist (Jul 22, 2021)

Evans said:


> I think that's a silly comparison, but I'll stop complaining when drive space costs the same as a stack of paper, then. That's not even considering a lack of available ports for external SSDs and oh-so-many hubs. That's my _real_ problem.


I mean, 100Gb of SSD space literally costs about £10, which is right in the ballpark for a ream of decent paper? These are just infrastructure costs one has to suck up.


----------



## sostenuto (Jul 22, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> I have Damage2 (and the original as well) and LAMP, JXL, Strezovs... pretty much every single percussion library ever made since the original Bob Clearmountain audio sample CDs. But none of them can give me the sound I want. That's why I still record my own drums for my projects... until now. With Hammers I can finally get my sound in a plugin! Finally!
> 
> Put Hammers up next to LAMP / Damage2 / JXL and you should be able to hear the difference between their approaches and ours.
> 
> ...


Realistically _ expect personal 'keyboardist /non-percussionist' ignorance, ease-of-use points to be low on priority list during early release period. Damage 2 videos, so far, have raised serious concern about extracting top features with myriad controls. Easy for many, not so here. Will be delaying decision and hoping for much more access to useful 'Hammers' discussion /videos. 
Many thanks @ charlieclouser ! 👏🏻


----------



## charlieclouser (Jul 22, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> I don't get why people complain about 100gb or whatever though. Storage space is just a consumable in this field: it's a cost of doing business, like reams of paper for a writer.


Hammers is pretty massive to be sure. All the single hits are 9x round-robin and at least 5x velocity (some more) times 8 to 12 stereo signals, and then there's the loops and the warps, which are each 8+2 bars of audio material times 8 to 12 stereo signals... so drive space goes fast.

At the moment I'm at 16tb for Kontakt plus 4tb for all non-Kontakt and 4tb for EXS.... for now.


----------



## SupremeFist (Jul 22, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Hammers is pretty massive to be sure. All the single hits are 9x round-robin and at least 5x velocity (some more) times 8 to 12 stereo signals, and then there's the loops and the warps, which are each 8+2 bars of audio material times 8 to 12 stereo signals... so drive space goes fast.
> 
> At the moment I'm at 16tb for Kontakt plus 4tb for all non-Kontakt and 4tb for EXS.... for now.


9x round-robin is awesome! 🤘🏻


----------



## charlieclouser (Jul 22, 2021)

sostenuto said:


> hoping for much more access to useful 'Hammer' discussion /videos.


There's, I think, four or five more videos that are either on Spitfire's site already or will be there soon...

1 - The "first look" which is me and Christian doing a two-studio Zoom type of discussion and semi-walkthrough.

2 - Christian's walkthrough (without me going off on tangents)

3 - "Scoring SPIRAL:SAW" where I play through and break down a big cue from the ninth Saw movie and show how I used Hammers for big action drums as well as using Warps for tension-synth pulses.

4 - "Behind the samples" which is a documentary we shot during the recording sessions.

5 - We shot another video of me building a percussion-only track from scratch using Hammers but it's not up yet, not sure if they scrapped it or are waiting or just didn't finish editing it in time or what.


----------



## charlieclouser (Jul 22, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> 9x round-robin is awesome! 🤘🏻


Yeah, and of course if you want to wind up with 9x round-robins that are clean and all match each other, you've got to record at least 16 so you have enough to discard any naff hits to get a set that match. It was a LOT of audio recorded on the sessions - nearly 2tb - and that's before I started with the processing and warps.


----------



## sndmarks (Jul 22, 2021)

Congratulations on the release, Charlie. The library sounds tremendous!

And your studio (and, I presume, home) look amazingly peaceful and beautiful. Just wow!

I really love the way you've got your mixer/monitor (?) page with the channels collected but separated. is that a Logic thing or some fancy solution you came up with?


----------



## charlieclouser (Jul 22, 2021)

sndmarks said:


> Congratulations on the release, Charlie. The library sounds tremendous!
> 
> And your studio (and, I presume, home) look amazingly peaceful and beautiful. Just wow!
> 
> I really love the way you've got your mixer/monitor (?) page with the channels collected but separated. is that a Logic thing or some fancy solution you came up with?


Thanks! That screenshot from my Logic template is showing my stem sub-masters in Logic's Environment window. I build my whole array of Objects for Instruments, Audio Tracks, Auxes for stem sub-masters and per-stem send effects ahead of time, and then turn OFF "Automatic management of channel strip objects" so nothing gets added or deleted as I work.

Then I clean up how things are laid out on screen in the Environment by dragging things around and using the various "Clean Up" functions like "Align Objects" etc. to get everything in nice clean rows.

The colored labels beneath the groups of Objects are not the Label Objects that Logic has; they are simply Fader Objects with some tricky settings to make them look like ornaments. Basically, in the Environment, create a new Fader Object, make sure it's selected, and then set the parameters in the box in the upper left of the Environment window like this:






This makes the Fader act as a pop-up menu (like for choosing from a list of presets on a hardware synth), but whose range is "0 - 0" so it only has one value and nothing happens if you click on it (the pop-up-ness has no effect when there's only one possible value to select).

I also create a dummy MIDI Instrument Object and stash it somewhere on the Click + Ports layer, and then make sure it has no MIDI destination port assigned. Then I can assign all of these ornament objects to use that dead-end as a destination so no weird MIDI data gets sent anywhere when I'm clicking around. That dummy MIDI destination is called "-------" in this example, so that's why in this example Output = "-----" and it's the same with the Input field.

The other important stuff is Style = As Text and Range = 0 - 0.

The name of that Object is " - " so it has basically an invisible name, which is good because the actual name of the Object appears underneath it, not in the colored part. The colored part displays the text stored in the current value of the pop-up, and since there's only one possible value, it stays constant. To enter the text you want displayed in the colored part, double click the Object and it will open the window where you'd enter all 128 names of the patches in your hardware synth (if you were using the pop-up to send program changes and you wanted to see the actual names). That window looks like this:






And you only need to concern yourself with the very first entry. Double-click it to enter the desired text and then close the editing window. Now your Object will display that text in the colored portion. Shown is the editing window for the orange Object displaying the text "A - DRUMS".

Now you can assign a color, drag the lower right corner to resize the Object, position it as you want.

Then you can duplicate it, double-click the duplicate to enter different text, and assign a different color for each of the other Objects you want.


----------



## Geoff Grace (Jul 22, 2021)

*Charlie*, I just want to use this opportunity to say that your contribution as a forum member here all these years has been outstanding. Thanks for sharing your work methods in such detail.

I need another percussion library like I need a hole in the head (I started with Bob Clearmountain too), but I want to buy this anyway just to give something back.

Best,

Geoff


----------



## Flyo (Jul 22, 2021)

Hammers or LAMP? I almost ready to pull trigger on total bundle of AUDIOOllie!


----------



## doctoremmet (Jul 22, 2021)

Geoff Grace said:


> *Charlie*, I just want to use this opportunity to say that your contribution as a forum member here all these years has been outstanding. Thanks for sharing your work methods in such detail.
> 
> I need another percussion library like I need a hole in the head (I started with Bob Clearmountain too), but I want to buy this anyway just to give something back.
> 
> ...


+1 @charlieclouser Great job! Congratulations with this release.


----------



## pranic (Jul 22, 2021)

The library sounds great! Congrats to you, Charlie and the rest of the Spitfire team! I had to pick up a new SSD today to make enough room, but it'll be downloading as soon as I drop the drive in my system! Really inspiring, and I'm excited to map the pads on my Alesis Strike Multipad!


----------



## SupremeFist (Jul 22, 2021)

pranic said:


> I'm excited to map the pads on my Alesis Strike Multipad!


Hmmmmmmm, I have absolutely no objective need for this library, but as someone who just started learning drums on a Roland e-kit last summer, are you saying I could map those to this and rock the hell out? Because that is very tempting....


----------



## charlieclouser (Jul 22, 2021)

Geoff Grace said:


> *Charlie*, I just want to use this opportunity to say that your contribution as a forum member here all these years has been outstanding. Thanks for sharing your work methods in such detail.
> 
> I need another percussion library like I need a hole in the head (I started with Bob Clearmountain too), but I want to buy this anyway just to give something back.
> 
> ...


Hahaha thanks man! I learn more than I teach on here, so it's a good deal for me too!

Trivia - I did all the drum sound replacement / reinforcing on every song on Marilyn Manson's first album using only Bob Clearmountain volume 1 and 2. Schedule was tight and Reznor didn't want me endlessly fishing around in my 128mb 3.5" magneto-optical disc library (remember those?) for cool samples, and arguing with him and Manson about which snare to use, so I was only allowed Bob 1 and Bob 2 for the gig.


----------



## charlieclouser (Jul 22, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> Hmmmmmmm, I have absolutely no objective need for this library, but as someone who just started learning drums on a Roland e-kit last summer, are you saying I could map those to this and rock the hell out? Because that is very tempting....


Absolutely! But there are zero "normal" hi-hats or cymbals. It's "rock drum instruments" for lots of the bass drums, toms, roto-toms, and snares, but it's not an ordinary rock kit at all.

But it is sooooo much fun to play from e-kit, multi-pad, or MPC pads. I have all three and each works great.


----------



## Braveheart (Jul 22, 2021)

I’m watching the walkthrough. It really is sounding amazing. Spitfire should make a giveaway of this library, based on guessing the number of time Christian says ‘curated’, ‘amazing’ and ‘fantastic’ during the walkthrough.


----------



## charlieclouser (Jul 22, 2021)

.... and I beat the sample editing team over the head with my proof-reading of the start point editing. Shit came out razor tight, no funny business, no dead air, no wobbly patterns when you quantize to 100%. They nailed it - but I double-checked *everything*.

And all of the processing, EQ-ing, compressing, everything related to "the sound" is 100% all my doing. So if there's too much bottom end on the toms it's my fault and mine alone!


----------



## SupremeFist (Jul 22, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Absolutely! But there are zero "normal" hi-hats or cymbals. It's "rock drum instruments" for lots of the bass drums, toms, roto-toms, and snares, but it's not an ordinary rock kit at all.
> 
> But it is sooooo much fun to play from e-kit, multi-pad, or MPC pads. I have all three and each works great.


Nice... but you're a drummer originally right? I have come from classical piano and clarinet through rock guitar and jazz tenor sax to finally appreciating the pure beauty of hitting things.


----------



## charlieclouser (Jul 22, 2021)

Braveheart said:


> I’m watching the walkthrough. It really is sounding amazing. Spitfire should make a giveaway of this library, based on guessing the number of time Christian says ‘curated’, ‘amazing’ and ‘fantastic’ during the walkthrough.


Hahaha you should see the raw footage - many more occurrences were edited out! Along with me saying "So it's a simple matter to..." a few dozen more times.


----------



## kgdrum (Jul 22, 2021)

The library sounds very impressive although as others have mentioned a 100g percussion library is a bit off-putting for people that have storage constraints.
I love Charlie’s work, instincts and ears so I have no doubt this release is wonderful as far as content and sound goes but I’m really leery of the Spitfire Player.
If this had been a Kontakt release it would be a definite buy from me but as it is a Spitfire Player release I must say unfortunately I will not even consider this or any major Spitfire purchase that relies on the Spitfire Player in its present form. 
If they make some major changes and improvements to their proprietary player I will reconsider but as the Spitfire Player as it is presently it’s a NO-GO for me.
Sorry Charlie ❤️


----------



## charlieclouser (Jul 22, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> Nice... but you're a drummer originally right? I have come from classical piano and clarinet through rock guitar and jazz tenor sax to finally appreciating the pure beauty of hitting things.


Yup. Started playing drums almost exactly 50 years ago. Third grade. Eight years of age. Do the math. I'm old.

Got my first Ludwig Vista-Lite kit in 1974 at age 11. Dang I'm old.


----------



## Braveheart (Jul 22, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Hahaha you should see the raw footage - many more occurrences were edited out! Along with me saying "So it's a simple matter to..." a few dozen more times.


That’s funny! I’m halfway through the walkthrough and I already lost count!


----------



## KEM (Jul 22, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Hahaha thanks man! I learn more than I teach on here, so it's a good deal for me too!
> 
> Trivia - I did all the drum sound replacement / reinforcing on every song on Marilyn Manson's first album using only Bob Clearmountain volume 1 and 2. Schedule was tight and Reznor didn't want me endlessly fishing around in my 128mb 3.5" magneto-optical disc library (remember those?) for cool samples, and arguing with him and Manson about which snare to use, so I was only allowed Bob 1 and Bob 2 for the gig.


Now that’s a really cool story!!


----------



## charlieclouser (Jul 22, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> The library sounds very impressive although as others have mentioned a 100g percussion library is a bit off-putting for people that have storage constraints.
> I love Charlie’s work, instincts and ears so I have no doubt this release is wonderful as far as content and sound goes but I’m really leery of the Spitfire Player.
> If this had been a Kontakt release it would be a definite buy from me but as it is a Spitfire Player release I must say unfortunately I will not even consider this or any major Spitfire purchase that relies on the Spitfire Player in its present form,If they make some major changes and improvements to their proprietary player I will reconsider but as the Spitfire Player as it is presently it’s a NO-GO for me.
> Sorry Charlie ❤️


It's all good. I admit to not using the Spitfire player that much until this project, but now I'm hooked. It did not crash, glitch, or mess up in any way... not one single time in all the phases of testing Hammers over the last year, so I'm a believer now.

And it runs just fine on my weak-sauce 8-year-old Mac Pro 6,1 cylinder with the slow-ass 2.5gHz 12-core CPU, 64gb RAM, streaming off Samsung 2.5" SATA Evo drives in a Black Magic MultiDock connected via TB2. 

The trailer music was done using about 30-40 instances of Hammers at once, with zero plugins or processing on any of the individual tracks (limiter on the master stereo pair though) and with zero freezing of tracks. All 100% live MIDI tracks.


----------



## Stringtree (Jul 22, 2021)

I'll buy the drums, but I could watch hours of this because things are so simply put. Everybody involved did it up right. So many things to learn from many angles. A good story. Clean drums or dirty drums, these all seem like characters to me. I heard one hit and started cackling because it had so much bwowwww. Great video, talent, product, release fanfare.

@SupremeFist wrote about mapping it to his Roland. So, too, do I have a Roland. None of my existing stuff would map to the E-kit as would these, sonically. I can't wait to play the godkit I make with this.

A great pleasure, for sure. I didn't hear anything beyond the edge of whack for this one.


----------



## SupremeFist (Jul 22, 2021)

Stringtree said:


> @SupremeFist wrote about mapping it to his Roland. So, too, do I have a Roland. None of my existing stuff would map to the E-kit as would these, sonically. I can't wait to play the godkit I make with this.


GODKIT!! 🤘🏻🤘🏻🤘🏻


----------



## Geoff Grace (Jul 22, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Hahaha thanks man! I learn more than I teach on here, so it's a good deal for me too!
> 
> Trivia - I did all the drum sound replacement / reinforcing on every song on Marilyn Manson's first album using only Bob Clearmountain volume 1 and 2. Schedule was tight and Reznor didn't want me endlessly fishing around in my 128mb 3.5" magneto-optical disc library (remember those?) for cool samples, and arguing with him and Manson about which snare to use, so I was only allowed Bob 1 and Bob 2 for the gig.


Great story, *Charlie*. Thanks for sharing! Certainly, if you want to get something done on time, it helps to impose limits; and of course, the Clearmountain sampling CDs weren't bad limits to impose.

And I _do_ remember magneto-optical. I, myself, was heavily invested in SyQuest; but I parted with my last SCSI drive a decade ago.

Best,

Geoff


----------



## Braveheart (Jul 22, 2021)

‘There’s an ocean of possibilities with this library, and I can’t wait to see you surf to it’ - Christian . 

Well, let’s hope with those massive hits, nobody will crash too hard on the waves.


----------



## Alchemedia (Jul 22, 2021)

So my guess "Clouser's ClawHammer" wasn't far off after all.  
Congrats Charlie!


----------



## Geoff Grace (Jul 22, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Yup. Started playing drums almost exactly 50 years ago. Third grade. Eight years of age. Do the math. I'm old.
> 
> Got my first Ludwig Vista-Lite kit in 1974 at age 11. Dang I'm old.


You're not old from my perspective. I started playing piano in 1965 and drums in 1970.

Considering that I'm lucky enough that my parents are both still alive, I can't lay claim to being old either, as there's a striking difference between their current abilities and mine. I have no problem calling myself "middle-aged," however.

Best,

Geoff


----------



## kgdrum (Jul 22, 2021)

Geoff Grace said:


> You're not old from my perspective. I started playing piano in 1965 and drums in 1970.
> 
> Considering that I'm lucky enough that my parents are both still alive, I can't lay claim to being old either, as there's a striking difference between their current abilities and mine. I have no problem calling myself "middle-aged," however.
> 
> ...


It appears we are around the same age so I have no qualms referring to myself as an old fuck but ironically anyone that knows me well will confirm I have the mind and maturity of a very immature 12 year old juvenile delinquent. 😜


----------



## doctoremmet (Jul 22, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> It appears we are around the same age so I have no qualms referring to myself as an old fuck but ironically anyone that knows me well will confirm I have the mind and maturity of a very immature 12 year old juvenile delinquent. 😜


Wait? You’re not 12 yo?


----------



## kgdrum (Jul 22, 2021)

@doctoremmet
I’m sorry I lied to you during our private “chat” 😂

I just hope it was as good for you as it was for me! 👍


----------



## IFM (Jul 22, 2021)

Sold! I just got an Alesis kit too to turn into a percussion station (not set up as a traditional kit) and this is EXACTLY what it needs!


----------



## José Herring (Jul 22, 2021)

IFM said:


> Sold! I just got an Alesis kit too to turn into a percussion station (not set up as a traditional kit) and this is EXACTLY what it needs!


Sounds like fun. 

Last year I got an Arturia Beat Step Pro and haven't even turned it on but once so far but these drums and the consistent keymap make it idea for drum style controllers. 

Plus my beatmap pro can be used as a CV sequencer for my Eurorack modules. 

It's going to be a fun year.


----------



## NYC Composer (Jul 22, 2021)

Hey, as long as it has Charlie's secret SAWs-all good.


----------



## Soundbed (Jul 22, 2021)

Great library. It was an instabuy for me. I haven't watched any videos or walkthroughs yet other than the trailer.

If you're one of those types who want to hear a monkey mash a MIDI controller with no talking, this is for you... a 24 minute "grab and smash" video. Smashing keys to hear the general idea of things.

I'll be using it a lot. Thank you for this, @charlieclouser !





PS - here is a great post (linked below) with a bunch of details. I'd already uploaded my video when I saw these but I will be going back later and spending some time with these organizational nuggets!





__





Out Now - Hammers by Charlie Clouser


OUT NOW - HAMMERS Make an impact with this comprehensive collection of drums and percussion instruments. Created in collaboration with composer Charlie Clouser (Saw, Wayward Pines, Nine Inch Nails), Hammers features more than 1,000 sounds across 58 drums, including detailed hits, ensembles...




vi-control.net


----------



## Trash Panda (Jul 22, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> It's all good. I admit to not using the Spitfire player that much until this project, but now I'm hooked. It did not crash, glitch, or mess up in any way... not one single time in all the phases of testing Hammers over the last year, so I'm a believer now.
> 
> And it runs just fine on my weak-sauce 8-year-old Mac Pro 6,1 cylinder with the slow-ass 2.5gHz 12-core CPU, 64gb RAM, streaming off Samsung 2.5" SATA Evo drives in a Black Magic MultiDock connected via TB2.


Try it on a Windows PC and you might not be as much of a believer in the Spitfire player. 

Congrats on the release! Sounds dope.


----------



## Flyo (Jul 22, 2021)

Somebody have in LAperc and Hammer? I was amazed by the dynamic sequencer function of LAMP. In pure term of sounds what you consider the most useful and better sounding library?


----------



## Soundbed (Jul 22, 2021)

To those who feel 100GB is a lot for a sampled drum / percussion library (with loops at various tempos), I wonder how many GB is too much for a sampled piano?

/rhetorical


----------



## itsyourself (Jul 22, 2021)

This is great. Clearly a meticulously recorded and conceived library, but for me what is by far most exciting is the way you have thought about the layout and interaction with the user. The loops, warps and hits are fantastically well 'curated' in a way that I can see how you can get much more organic, developing rhythms than normal with sample libs. That alone is worth the price, especially with the variations in warps based on the source material which you can mix and match in all sorts of creative ways.
You have whetted my appetite now though, Charlie. I would love to see this design concept applied to other percussion, aside from the epic, movie stuff. It could be great with an array of smaller, diverse percussion and percussive instruments, like balafons and mallets etc, as well as more modest drum kits. I hope Spitfire and you are thinking the same!
I do think Spitfire, and others, have matured the whole sample lib thing. With Solstice and this the creative possibilities, the warping and mixing are much more interesting and creative than the old concept of a carefully sampled instruments with a few oddball patches thrown in at the end.
Great work.


----------



## sopwith (Jul 22, 2021)

Dang - if I'd known this was coming, I woulda bought this instead of JXL. As a non-Damage-owner, it looks like it covers a lot of ground.


----------



## charlieclouser (Jul 22, 2021)

Flyo said:


> Somebody have in LAperc and Hammer? I was amazed by the dynamic sequencer function of LAMP. In pure term of sounds what you consider the most useful and better sounding library?


I also like the dynamic sequencer in D2, it's quite clever... but I wind up not using that part of it very often because I just use either note-repeat on the MPC pad, which controls dynamics with pressure on the pads, or else I use an arpeggiator inside Logic which has mod wheel > dynamics. Obviously each has pros and cons but that's where I wound up. And of course the MPC pad or Logic arpeggiator solutions work with ANY library, not just those that have the dynamic sequencer built-in to the UI.

Most of the time I just use pressure-note-repeat on the MPC pads because having the sequencer in the sampler means that the notes you have in your DAW tracks are just the long notes that then trigger the sequencer.... unless you drag-n-drop the MIDI, if the instrument offers that. And using the Logic arpeggiator is similar unless you do a loop-back to re-record the MIDI, which is a bit clumsy to say the least.

As to the comparing the sound between Hammers and other libraries, obviously I'm biased towards Hammers, but if you load up any library and just listen to the close mics, with all the cavernous reverbs disabled, then you can really hear what the drums, recording chain, and processing sound like. So many libraries just have monstrous epic reverb on them, and everyone's (including mine) first reaction is to go, "WHOA sounds epic, add to cart" and it might not be until later when you're trying to work with those sounds for real that you find that they are not as beefy as the warehouse-sized reverb made them seem. Some libraries don't even let you get to the close mics, or get to a more dry and revealing sound, so that's not an issue for those - but then you're stuck with the one character of sound they come with.

For many (most?) people that's not a problem... but for me it is, hence... Hammers.

I've bought a ton of percussion libraries where "Mix 1" sounds great, but if you solo the mics you reveal toms that sounds like cardboard boxes being played with whiffle-ball bats, and epic taikos that sound like dropping a stained mattress out a fourth-story window onto the roof of an abandoned car. 

Not what we were going for here!


----------



## kilgurt (Jul 22, 2021)

Congratulations on this release, Charlie. Bonzo lives! Where can I find some detailed information about the mics and pres used for the production? Are those large condensers (above the Roto-Toms) Rode NT-1000s?


----------



## Flyo (Jul 22, 2021)

It will be cool if somebody having the main percussion libraries do a example demo of some of the sounds/ hits only with close mic on and then with others mics, in order to have a real approach of the sound of each one. LAMP - OT TOM - Damage 2 - Hammers


----------



## charlieclouser (Jul 22, 2021)

Flyo said:


> It will be cool if somebody having the main percussion libraries do a example demo of some of the sounds/ hits only with close mic on and then with others mics, in order to have a real approach of the sound of each one. LAMP - OT TOM - Damage 2 - Hammers


I would love to see that! I've done it myself - you can be sure I did a lot of comparisons during the recording, processing, mixing, and overall development of Hammers.

But I think I'll leave it to a neutral party to make such a comparison video.... wouldn't seem right for me to do it.


----------



## Daniel James (Jul 22, 2021)

Listening through again, my favourite part about what I have heard so far is the punchy yet not harsh transients. That is a tricky skill!

-DJ


----------



## Scottyb (Jul 22, 2021)

This sounds VERY, very good!! Love the 9x RR too! Makes a big difference! I will spend some more time checking this out tonight! Don't mind the 100GB at all - it's worth it! I have to ask. Any chance at all of NKS version of this? : /


----------



## Flyo (Jul 22, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> I would love to see that! I'vedone it myself - you can be sure I did a lot of comparisons during the recording, processing, mixing, and overall development of Hammers.
> 
> But I think I'll leave it to a neutral party to make such a comparison video.... wouldn't seem right for me to do it.
> 
> ...





charlieclouser said:


> I would love to see that! I've done it myself - you can be sure I did a lot of comparisons during the recording, processing, mixing, and overall development of Hammers.
> 
> But I think I'll leave it to a neutral party to make such a comparison video.... wouldn't seem right for me to do it.


Yess of course, it’s ideal to somebody this demo of different libraries. Thank you for this amazing library, info and reply to all this


----------



## charlieclouser (Jul 22, 2021)

kilgurt said:


> Congratulations on this release, Charlie. Bonzo lives! Where can I find some detailed information about the mics and pres used for the production? Are those large condensers (above the Roto-Toms) Rode NT-1000s?


During the preparation of the marketing materials, I typed up a massive document that goes into excruciating detail about every drum, microphone, mic position, preamp, eq, process, blah blah blah. It was well beyond my usual 10,000 character posts on this forum! 

The Spitfire guys have it, and are going to use it, in some form or other, for either the user manual, or some deep-dive document, or something. If they don't, I'll make a thread, but maybe Mike will have to pay for more server space to hold the thread!

But, in short the recording chain 100% class-A electronics, and basically was:

Close Mics = Rode NT-2a (x4) into my CraneSong Spider Class-A mic preamps. We tried a bunch of different mics and these were the only ones that sounded good and didn't suffer from capsule breakup at extreme SPL. They have a super-detailed yet neutral tone, which was what I wanted for the close mics - no mojo, but no crap either. We could have used a 57 or 421 but I've always thought those sound like ass. And 451's or KM84's wouldn't have been the right choice for big surdos etc.

Overheads = Neumann M-149 matched set into my AMS Neve 1084 pair (re-issues). The Lord of all Microphones into the Lord of all mic preamps. What could be better? The M-149's make everything sound great. I've had vintage 1073's forever but no two ever seem to sound the same (and one always seems to fail at the wrong moment), so for a true stereo pair the AMS Neve re-issues were the way to go. 

Room Mics = Schoeps SDC omnis into CraneSong Spider. We tried cardioid and omni, SDC / LDC / Tube mics on the room an the Schoeps won the shootout. Their omni mics are neutral and DEAD quiet, and seemed to pick up a more true picture of the back half of the room which has weird nooks and crannies where the sound bounces around, stacks up, and comes back - and the Schoeps seemed to capture all that better. These were way up high, about 12 feet up if I remember correctly.

Catwalk and Chimney mics = My vintage AKG 451's into the Spider. Catwalk mic was 20-ish feet up pointed straight down at the kit, chimney mic was about 3 feet up the chimney of the wood-burning fireplace you can see in some of the photos and videos. For bottom-heavy drums I carefully processed the chimney mic, which picked up a monster amount of low-end because it was basically up inside a tube, and turned that into the "Sub" signal. For drums which didn't have any decent sub content (roto-toms, darbukas, frame drums, snare, scrap, etc.) I took the Catwalk and Chimney mics, painstakingly time-aligned them by eye / ear / phase meter, processed them individually to get a decent (but kind of weird) stereo image, and then smashed the hell out of the pair to create the Crush signal on those drums.

So it was usually a ten-channel recording. If there were four close mics on the recording (like on the four-player ensembles) then I mixed them down into a single stereo pair - but I processed and manicured them individually before mixing down to stereo.


----------



## NYC Composer (Jul 22, 2021)

itsyourself said:


> This is great. Clearly a meticulously recorded and conceived library, but for me what is by far most exciting is the way you have thought about the layout and interaction with the user. The loops, warps and hits are fantastically well 'curated' in a way that I can see how you can get much more organic, developing rhythms than normal with sample libs. That alone is worth the price, especially with the variations in warps based on the source material which you can mix and match in all sorts of creative ways.
> You have whetted my appetite now though, Charlie. I would love to see this design concept applied to other percussion, aside from the epic, movie stuff. It could be great with an array of smaller, diverse percussion and percussive instruments, like balafons and mallets etc, as well as more modest drum kits. I hope Spitfire and you are thinking the same!
> I do think Spitfire, and others, have matured the whole sample lib thing. With Solstice and this the creative possibilities, the warping and mixing are much more interesting and creative than the old concept of a carefully sampled instruments with a few oddball patches thrown in at the end.
> Great work.


The lighter library could be called “Nails.”


----------



## NYC Composer (Jul 22, 2021)

Geoff Grace said:


> Great story, *Charlie*. Thanks for sharing! Certainly, if you want to get something done on time, it helps to impose limits; and of course, the Clearmountain sampling CDs weren't bad limits to impose.
> 
> And I _do_ remember magneto-optical. I, myself, was heavily invested in SyQuest; but I parted with my last SCSI drive a decade ago.
> 
> ...



I have a bunch of dead Jaz drives and 650 meg magneto optical drives somewhere.

I believe Eric Persing and Bob Daspit had an entire 650 full of newly recorded orch samples for Roland go bad (shudder.)


----------



## heisenberg (Jul 22, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> To those who feel 100GB is a lot for a sampled drum / percussion library (with loops at various tempos), I wonder how many GB is too much for a sampled piano?
> 
> /rhetorical


The amount of samples devoted to pedal squeaks and breaths in VSL's Steinway 274 is breaktaking. I think it is pretty funny but I am sure many around here would be pissed by it. 8TB SSDs are coming out.


----------



## sostenuto (Jul 22, 2021)

heisenberg said:


> The amount of samples devoted to pedal squeaks and breaths in VSL's Steinway 274 is breaktaking. I think it is pretty funny but I am sure many around here would be pissed by it. 8TB SSDs are coming out.


...... as well as cheaper DDR4 - 32GB


----------



## heisenberg (Jul 22, 2021)

Good to know! If you haven't heard the pedal noises on the VSL Steinway, get yourself a demo. Gorgeous and splendidly indulgent.


----------



## muziksculp (Jul 22, 2021)

I wonder how much space the loops of this library are taking up, compared to the samples ?


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Jul 22, 2021)

Drive space is cheap - and getting cheaper - so no concerns about the size. Easy fit on a 4TB SSD.

Sounds fantastic - nothing like Damage 2. Just listening to the variety of mic sources should’ve indicated that. And while D2 is great, there’s room for other libraries - LAMP brings its own thing to the table, etc. Love the workflow care put into Hammers. Some very unique and intelligent decisions designed around flexibility and speed. OT could learn a thing or two for their JXL Perc release.


----------



## muziksculp (Jul 22, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Easy fit on a 4TB SSD


4TB SSD is not cheap.


----------



## Alchemedia (Jul 22, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> 100 GB !


Fortunately you have the option not to download from NI.


----------



## muziksculp (Jul 22, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> Fortunately you have the option not to download from NI.


NI ? What's that have to do with this library ?


----------



## sopwith (Jul 22, 2021)

Me watching the videos:

"Wow look at that incredible studio, what Bond-lair facility is that?!"

Charlie's narration:

"So we recorded this at my house..."


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Jul 22, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> 4TB SSD is not cheap.


Neither are sample libraries, but some of us seem to be constantly buying them!


----------



## Alchemedia (Jul 22, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> NI ? What's that have to do with this library ?


Perhaps a bit of a tangent, but Landforms is also 100GB and downloading via NI was apparently a hassle.


----------



## muziksculp (Jul 22, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> Perhaps a bit of a tangent, but Landforms is also 100GB and downloading via NI was apparently a hassle.


I see. I didn't bother getting Landforms. I know Spitfire's Servers are quite fast for downloads, but that's not my main focus here, it's more the size of the library. Remember, these are perc. hits, not sustains, or legatos. I really don't think I need another perc. library at this time. But I'm sure many others feel this one is very special, and useful to have.


----------



## charlieclouser (Jul 22, 2021)

sopwith said:


> Me watching the videos:
> 
> "Wow look at that incredible studio, what Bond-lair facility is that?!"
> 
> ...


Yup. Right in my living room. Okay, it's not a normal living room, but still.... it's a room, and I do live in it, so....


----------



## Soundbed (Jul 22, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> these are perc. hits


I compared them to a piano because they sustain. You need to wait for every round robin of every drum hit to ring out.


----------



## muziksculp (Jul 22, 2021)

@Soundbed ,

I'm guessing you also have Damage 2, and now that you have Hammers, what do you think is the biggest difference between them in a general sense, no need to go into too many details ? 

i.e. Which one of these two libraries would you go to first to write an action cue rhythm/perc track ?

I noticed Hammers doesn't have some of the exotic drums that Damage 2 has, i.e. Taikos. , I also need to watch more videos of Hammers to see what it offers in more detail. Also which one do you think is better suited for the softer, more texture, and less boombastic drum/perc. sounds ?

Thanks.


----------



## sopwith (Jul 22, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Yup. Right in my living room. Okay, it's not a normal living room, but still.... it's a room, and I do live in it, so....


Your place is incredible; awesome to hear your take on how the surfaces and materials influence your signature sounds.


----------



## Soundbed (Jul 22, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> @Soundbed ,
> 
> I'm guessing you also have Damage 2, and now that you have Hammers, what do you think is the biggest difference between them in a general sense, no need to go into too many details ?
> 
> ...


Hi, yes I have Damage 2 and it’s very much a Heavyocity follow-up to Damage.

The aesthetic is largely summarized for me by that “Punish” knob.

It’s quite easy to pull up distorted, sound designed drums and highly processed drums. Not that that’s all there is — but I don’t often reach for it first, for that reason. I (still) often start with Heavyocity Master Sessions instead of Damage 2. They are processed, but to sound more “cinematic,” which fits my typical sensibilities for starting rhythm work on a cue. They (Master Sessions) sound like cinematic drums, not distorted cinematic drums. Anyway Damage 2 is a smorgasbord of a wide variety of sounds that can be punished. And a lot of it easily fits into a category of “distorted drums” that I add later; after I’ve built the foundation of a cue. I don’t go to it first for Taikos for instance (maybe I need to revisit them again?)….

Hammers — first impression from tonight playing with it, still having watched zero of the Spitfire walkthroughs — is a fairly different tool, to me, from most anything else I’ve got. The aesthetic is so much more focused and defined. Less general (like Damage 2). Not a smorgasbord. It’s got a more … and I hesitate to use this word because I know what it means to me but not sure if it translates to others — Hammers has a more “muted” intensity. The sonic signature is carefully crafted to be fairly clean and punchy (at least the default mix when I open the plugin, I haven’t even looked at all the mix options yet) and ‘modern’ i.e. contemporary and even commercial sounding but very stylistically defined.

wow those are still really general words

It’s sort of like the difference between a really expensive rocker outfit that is intentionally distressed and carefully ripped and worn out direct from the store to look aged and rugged/ragged (Damage 2) versus a really nice suit coat that is extremely well tailored but still worn by someone with a t shirt underneath and stubble and tousled hair (Hammers). Not sure if that makes sense but the idea is that many people could get a stylist to help shop for the perfectly ragged clothes — whereas a well tailored suit coat often still needs that extra attention to make sure it fits the wearer ‘just right’ and it wouldn’t look out of place in a higher end venue.

It’s easy to “stretch” the analogy / imagery too far,  … but that default mix in Hammers feels like that tailored suit coat to me. Narrower and more defined aesthetic, more of a “muted” intensity (whereas Damage 2 might be a “coming apart at the seams intensity”) and the saturation / distortion in the loops/warped section seems to focus on the deeper and more understated side of things. I could blabber on but those are some first impressions.

I think I have some exploring to do with other mixes in Hammers this weekend.


----------



## heisenberg (Jul 22, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> Perhaps a bit of a tangent, but Landforms is also 100GB and downloading via NI was apparently a hassle.


It was 70 GBs and prone to d/l errors. Awesome library.


----------



## kilgurt (Jul 23, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> The Spitfire guys have it, and are going to use it, in some form or other, for either the user manual, or some deep-dive document, or something. If they don't, I'll make a thread, but maybe Mike will have to pay for more server space to hold the thread!
> ...


Thanks Charlie for your comprehensive answer! Fantastic library!


----------



## Monkberry (Jul 23, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Hi, yes I have Damage 2 and it’s very much a Heavyocity follow-up to Damage.
> 
> The aesthetic is largely summarized for me by that “Punish” knob.
> 
> ...


Perfect description of Hammers vs. Damage 2. This is what is drawing me toward purchasing Hammers when I recently decided there is nothing in the percussion category I could possibly ever need at this point.


----------



## holywilly (Jul 23, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Hi, yes I have Damage 2 and it’s very much a Heavyocity follow-up to Damage.
> 
> The aesthetic is largely summarized for me by that “Punish” knob.
> 
> ...


Your post ignite my desire to get this one, just like strings libraries, I have tons and still missing one.


----------



## axb312 (Jul 23, 2021)

Looks like these signature drum libs are in and profitable for developers.


----------



## Grizzlymv (Jul 23, 2021)

So far, great sounds and I think I might use it quite a bit, great work Charlie and Spitfire crew! That being said, I think I'm running into some issues and I'm not sure if it's my setup only or others have similar issues. Might just be a code 18 problem mind you..  

I can't seem to have the reverse working at all. I did try to replicate the example Charlie was doing on the First Look video at 24:53, but still here the reverse stays grayed out whatever I do, whatever instrument I load or mic enabled. 

I'm running it on Windows 10 / Cubase 10.5 so I'm not sure if others have the same issues.


----------



## davidson (Jul 23, 2021)

What's the USP of this library? Is it _just_ that it sounds great? I say 'just' in the nicest possible way obviously


----------



## Soundbed (Jul 23, 2021)

davidson said:


> What's the USP of this library? Is it _just_ that it sounds great? I say 'just' in the nicest possible way obviously


Couple things. First, did you read this post?





__





Out Now - Hammers by Charlie Clouser


OUT NOW - HAMMERS Make an impact with this comprehensive collection of drums and percussion instruments. Created in collaboration with composer Charlie Clouser (Saw, Wayward Pines, Nine Inch Nails), Hammers features more than 1,000 sounds across 58 drums, including detailed hits, ensembles...




vi-control.net


----------



## muziksculp (Jul 23, 2021)

holywilly said:


> Your post ignite my desire to get this one, just like strings libraries, I have tons and still missing one.


Hehe.. that reminds me of someone I know.


----------



## richmwhitfield (Jul 23, 2021)

Grizzlymv said:


> So far, great sounds and I think I might use it quite a bit, great work Charlie and Spitfire crew! That being said, I think I'm running into some issues and I'm not sure if it's my setup only or others have similar issues. Might just be a code 18 problem mind you..
> 
> I can't seem to have the reverse working at all. I did try to replicate the example Charlie was doing on the First Look video at 24:53, but still here the reverse stays grayed out whatever I do, whatever instrument I load or mic enabled.
> 
> I'm running it on Windows 10 / Cubase 10.5 so I'm not sure if others have the same issues.


If you click on the ellipsis top-right, there is an option 'ENABLE REVERSE' - try that


----------



## Symfoniq (Jul 23, 2021)

I have Damage 2, but I'm more curious about how Hammers compares to LA Modern Percussion, which I also own.

However, I might just go ahead and get Hammers on account of Charlie being such a helpful member of the community. I'm sure it would get some use.


----------



## Grizzlymv (Jul 23, 2021)

richmwhitfield said:


> If you click on the ellipsis top-right, there is an option 'ENABLE REVERSE' - try that


oh wow. that was not an obvious find. thanks for that! works now!


----------



## charlieclouser (Jul 23, 2021)

Grizzlymv said:


> So far, great sounds and I think I might use it quite a bit, great work Charlie and Spitfire crew! That being said, I think I'm running into some issues and I'm not sure if it's my setup only or others have similar issues. Might just be a code 18 problem mind you..
> 
> I can't seem to have the reverse working at all. I did try to replicate the example Charlie was doing on the First Look video at 24:53, but still here the reverse stays grayed out whatever I do, whatever instrument I load or mic enabled.
> 
> I'm running it on Windows 10 / Cubase 10.5 so I'm not sure if others have the same issues.


*TL;DR = Look under the "three dots" menu in the upper right to find the "Enable Reverse" toggle.*

Full explanation:

Click on the little "three dots" icon at the upper right of the UI and in the drop-down menu you will see options like:

• *DYNAMICS *= You can choose *Full Velocity Range*, which is the normal behavior you'd expect; *Vel Mapped To Dynamics*, which disables incoming MIDI note velocities and dynamic layers are selected via Mod Wheel; or *Compressed Velocity High / Low*, which squashes the velocity curve in either direction.

• *VELOCITY *= You can choose between four different scaling curves for incoming MIDI note velocities.

• *CC MAPPINGS *= Here you can Clear or Reset all mappings of UI controls to incoming MIDI Control Change.

• *SYNC TO TEMPO *= Here you can disable host tempo sync entirely if desired.

• *STRETCH MODE *= Here you can choose what time-stretch mode is used to match Loops and Warps to the host tempo. Choices include: *Default *which I believe is Elastique; *Retro Pitch* which is old-school sampler style where the samples are simply pitched up or down to match the host tempo; *CPU Friendly (Granular)* which is exactly what you think but is great for special effects, and *Low / Mid / High Elastique *to balance sound vs CPU hit. At one point we considered making Retro Pitch the default to reduce load times and CPU hit on less-powerful systems but I think the team made a last-minute breakthrough on improving performance so the default may now be Elastique. In any case, Retro Pitch has massively lower CPU hit, and no chance of affecting transients (other than the change in pitch of course) and is actually what I use a lot of the time, especially on Warps. But if you are trying to use the 70 BPM Loops at a host tempo of 120 BPM then you will definitely not want the munchkin-ization of upward pitch shift, so you'll want to use one of the Elastique modes. But if you're using Loops at a slower tempo than their original, Retro Pitch will shift their pitch down and everything gets juicy and fat, just the way I like it.

• *VOICE CHOKING *= This controls whether single hits will choke Ruffs and Rolls in the Hits patches. With this turned ON, playing a Hit will interrupt the Roll or Ruff, which is especially useful with the Ruffs where I usually do not want to just let the Ruff play out and put its built-in end hit wherever it would fall naturally - I want to manually place a Hit at the desired point in time and not have to worry about going in and manicuring the length of the MIDI note that triggers the Ruff (by "prevent overlaps" or whatever). With Voice Choking ON this happens automatically - the Hit will choke the Ruff (and the Roll). But this might not be right for everyone, so we provided the option to disable this.

• *LOOP END *= This toggles the automatic triggering of End Hits whenever you release the MIDI note that triggers a Roll or a Loop. If you quantize your note lengths this can be a great feature, but can be confusing to some users when unexpected hits occur as they release the key on a Loop or Roll, and if you don't quantize your note lengths those hits will sound out of time, so we made the default condition OFF. I actually rarely use this feature, preferring to manually place an individual single hit after a Roll or Loop, but its a cool feature that lets you use the mod wheel to swell a Roll and then automatically trigger a hit exactly when you let go of the note, so we included the option but made it default to OFF.

• *ENABLE REVERSE *= This is turned OFF by default to reduce load times and memory requirement. Not everyone wants or needs reverse enabled on every single patch that loads, so we made the default condition OFF.


----------



## charlieclouser (Jul 23, 2021)

Please also take a look under the "*COG*" menu in the upper right of the UI, especially the* Settings > Interface* tab. This is where you'll find options to:

• Control the default condition for Collapse / Expand the UI when the plugin is opened.

• Set the default enlargement for the UI by typing in an enlargement factor, as well as "Get" the current size and "Set" that as the default.

• Control whether or not to display key switches as illuminated keys on the on-screen keyboard.

• Control whether samples are unloaded automatically when a Signal fader is at the bottom.

• Choose db or percentage for displayed gain values.

• Make controllers global when changing techniques.

• Enable or Disable host automation for controls that are assigned to MIDI CC's.

• Change the UI knob drag type from circular to vertical.

• Disable any warning resulting from missing samples.

• Disable the auto-pop-up of parameter displays.

• Enable or Disable the automatic mic group exclusivity in the Signals page, so you can layer Mix 1 / 2 / 3 with any of the individual mic signals. This defaults to Enabled in order to prevent a situation where a Mix 1 / 2 / 3 Signal is combined with some / all of the individual Signals that its comprised of, which could result in phasing or other unexpected sonic results. Originally there was no option to Disable this Exclusivity, and enabling any one of Mix 1 / 2 / 3 would automatically disable the other two Mix Signals as well as all of the individual signals. But, all of the individual Signals could be freely Enabled to use them in any combination. During testing we realized that in many cases, you could stack Mix 1 / 2 / 3 with each other and / or with the individual mic Signals without hearing any weirdness, phasing, flanging, etc. - the sound just sounded louder and bigger. BUT technically the "correct" way to use Hammers would be to have Mix 1 / 2 / 3 be Exclusive with each other, and with any of the individual Signals, so we made that the default behavior. But you can turn it off and stack and stack and stack your Signals for bigger more better sound. Just be aware that if you hear any phasing / flanging / weirdness, this is why.

• And finally, you can decide whether the default condition for Reverse Samples is Enabled or Disabled. Set this to Disabled if you want things to load faster and use less RAM, forcing you to manually decide to Enable the Reverse Functionality under the "three dots" on a case-by-case basis. Set this to Enabled if you want to always have Reverse Functionality be Enabled by default, even though patches will take longer to load and use more RAM.


----------



## Grizzlymv (Jul 23, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> • And finally, you can decide whether the default condition for Reverse Samples is Enabled or Disabled. Set this to Disabled if you want things to load faster and use less RAM, forcing you to manually decide to Enable the Reverse Functionality under the "three dots" on a case-by-case basis. Set this to Enabled if you want to always have Reverse Functionality be Enabled by default, even though patches will take longer to load and use more RAM.


Ahhh. That make much more sense now!! Thanks A LOT for the detailed explanations! As a newcomer to the Spitfire engine, those are very good things to know!  The more I use it, the more I like it. So much different than other perc libs in its execution. Thanks again for doing this!


----------



## charlieclouser (Jul 23, 2021)

There's also some really cool features on the bottom half of the main page of the UI, divided into three sections - Technique, Signal Mixer, and Controllers. Most of the options you'll find in these sections are pretty self-explanatory, but there are a few unusual bits that might confuse some folks.

In the *TECHNIQUE* tab (the left-most one with the little waveform icon), for the Hits patches this is where you choose what playing technique, single vs 2-player vs 4-player, etc., and for the Loops and Warps patches this is where you choose which tempo group of samples you'll hear. You can manually click on the large icons to select a Technique, and there are some further controls on the right side of the UI. Most are obvious, but the TRIGGER settings has some new and unusual options that might be not so obvious.

• *TRIGGER* tab = This is where you can control how to switch between the Techniques displayed to the left. You can choose *NONE* which is manual selection by clicking on the icons; *KEYSWITCH* which operates as expected and allows you to pick the key which will activate the currently selected technique and whether it will behave in Normal or Latching mode; *CC RANGE* which allows you to choose a CC# and value range to select the current technique; *VEL RANGE *which allows you to specify a MIDI velocity range for the current technique and thereby build custom velocity stacks; *MIDI CHANNEL* which allows for simple multi-timbral use in a single plugin instance; *SPEED* which lets you switch between techniques depending on how close together notes are in milliseconds (amazing for some drums, try it!); *PROGRAM CHANGE* which uses ordinary MIDI Program Change events to select a technique; and *HOST TEMPO *which will select the current technique based on the current tempo in your DAW.

That last option, *HOST TEMPO*, can be absolutely amazing or slightly confusing, so it bears discussing in depth. When *HOST TEMPO* is chosen as the method for selecting techniques, you specify a range of incoming tempo that will call up the current technique. This can be great for automatically selecting between different drum types in the Hits patches as a cue with tempo changes plays, but in the Loops and Warps patches it can automatically switch to the tempo group of samples that is closest to the current tempo. This, however, can be confusing - if you have a cue with tempo changes and the selected group of Loops / Warps is automatically changing as it plays back, you might find that the Loop you expect to find under a given note is different than it was a few bars earlier. So pay careful attention to what's going on in that section of the UI - if anything weird or unexpected starts happening, that might be what's up.


----------



## SupremeFist (Jul 23, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> There's also some really cool features on the bottom half of the main page of the UI, divided into three sections - Technique, Signal Mixer, and Controllers. Most of the options you'll find in these sections are pretty self-explanatory, but there are a few unusual bits that might confuse some folks.
> 
> In the *TECHNIQUE* tab (the left-most one with the little waveform icon), for the Hits patches this is where you choose what playing technique, single vs 2-player vs 4-player, etc., and for the Loops and Warps patches this is where you choose which tempo group of samples you'll hear. You can manually click on the large icons to select a Technique, and there are some further controls on the right side of the UI. Most are obvious, but the TRIGGER settings has some new and unusual options that might be not so obvious.
> 
> ...


Dude, Spitfire should pay you even more money to write their manuals.


----------



## Evans (Jul 23, 2021)

Heck, I'm not at all sure if this library is something I'm interested in, but I greatly respect and appreciate the incredibly thorough and thoughtful responses that are being given in this thread. So much so that I may go ahead and give it a stronger look.


----------



## sostenuto (Jul 23, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> There's also some really cool features on the bottom half of the main page of the UI, divided into three sections - Technique, Signal Mixer, and Controllers. Most of the options you'll find in these sections are pretty self-explanatory, but there are a few unusual bits that might confuse some folks.
> 
> In the *TECHNIQUE* tab (the left-most one with the little waveform icon), for the Hits patches this is where you choose what playing technique, single vs 2-player vs 4-player, etc., and for the Loops and Warps patches this is where you choose which tempo group of samples you'll hear. You can manually click on the large icons to select a Technique, and there are some further controls on the right side of the UI. Most are obvious, but the TRIGGER settings has some new and unusual options that might be not so obvious.
> 
> ...


Amazing new product _ maybe even more amazing Thread(s) _ {both Commercial & Sample Talk}.
First time ever, but will be Copying /Pasting these 'tutorial' posts, then printing /collating for easy access. May be best User Manual when finished.

(_Oops _ @ SuprmeFist) ...... was composing during your Post #141_).


----------



## kgdrum (Jul 23, 2021)

I have a question for anyone thoroughly familiar with Spitfire’s player.
As someone who has totally shied away from the Spitfire player are all or most these functional details and amazing tips that @charlieclouser has been skillfully explaining apply to all of the Spitfire products that utilize their proprietary player or do most of these details only apply to the Player as it’s being utilized in Hammers ?

Thanks,
KG


----------



## emasters (Jul 23, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> Dude, Spitfire should pay you even more money to write their manuals.


Agreed! I read the Spitfire manual last night. It does well to describe the player. But the depth Charlie has shared here, would actually make the manual useful.


----------



## muziksculp (Jul 23, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> do most of these details only apply to the Player as it’s being utilized in Hammers ?


Yes, I think they are mostly specific to Hammers.


----------



## kgdrum (Jul 23, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Yes, I think they are mostly specific to Hammers.


Thanks 👍


----------



## charlieclouser (Jul 23, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> I have a question for anyone thoroughly familiar with Spitfire’s player.
> As someone who has totally shied away from the Spitfire player are all or most these functional details and amazing tips that @charlieclouser has been skillfully explaining apply to all of the Spitfire products that utilize their proprietary player or do most of these details only apply to the Player as it’s being utilized in Hammers ?
> 
> Thanks,
> KG


Some of the features in the Spitfire player are unique to Hammers... for now. I really pushed their dev team to figure out how to implement these Hammers-specific features, but now that they are in the codebase, if any of them might prove useful in other libraries, I hope we'll start to see updates rolling out sooner or later.

Some features are in other libraries already, but maybe not with the level of control that we'd all like. For instance, "End Hit triggered by Note Off" IS present in the tympani rolls in BBCSO, but you can't turn it off. So that's one right off the top of my head. I definitely want to be able to play soft tympani rolls legato-style across multiple pitches without having end hits auto-trigger whenever I release a note, so that's definitely one I'll be waving the flag for.

And other bits of the codebase for new features first seen in Hammers may prove useful in unexpected ways in other libraries, maybe even with a different UI control. Normalize is one I'd love to see in orchestral libraries, so I can focus on the softer articulations but still have them play loud, if that makes sense - but maybe it would be called something different in the context of a strings library, or the knob would work in the opposite direction, or something.


----------



## kgdrum (Jul 23, 2021)

@charlieclouser

Thanks for the informative explanation 😊


----------



## Soundbed (Jul 23, 2021)

@charlieclouser I copy/pasted your most helpful posts and put them into a document. Let me know if you'd like me to remove it (?)

...attached as both rtf (zipped) and pdf


----------



## Soundbed (Jul 23, 2021)

sostenuto said:


> First time ever, but will be Copying /Pasting these 'tutorial' posts, then printing /collating for easy access. May be best User Manual when finished.


attached mine above ... unless I get asked to remove


----------



## muziksculp (Jul 23, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> attached mine above ... unless I get asked to remove


Hi @Soundbed 

Thank You so much for the pdf docs. I will even print them, and put them in a folder, even though I haven't purchase Hammers yet  

These are so useful to have, why would you be asked to remove them ? makes no sense when you are trying to be so helpful here. 

I also appreciate how @charlieclouser was instrumental in enhancing the Spitfire Audio Player's features for Hammers, and is also pushing some of these new features to be added to other Spitfire Player based libraries. I would love it if he maintains a close relationship with the Spitfire Audio Development team to recommend specific improvements to their player as it evolves. 

I see good times ahead. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## easyrider (Jul 23, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @Soundbed
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I watched the release video and I reckon they are working on something as we speak.

It was hinted by @christianhenson and @charlieclouser 😎


----------



## muziksculp (Jul 23, 2021)

easyrider said:


> I watched the release video and i reckon they are working on something as we speak.


Something for Hammers ? or for their other libraries ? 

I'm just glad that there is a push for improving their Player with useful features. Lots of Thanks to @charlieclouser


----------



## Soundbed (Jul 23, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> why would you be asked to remove them


he can edit his posts ... he cannot edit a PDF of his posts someone already downloaded ... only want to be respectful of that


----------



## easyrider (Jul 23, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Something for Hammers ? or for their other libraries ?
> 
> I'm just glad that there is a push for improving their Player with useful features. Lots of Thanks to @charlieclouser


Another Lib.


----------



## itsyourself (Jul 23, 2021)

This is the beauty of collaboration and reaching out, one of Christian's great merits at getting people involved. A lot of these techniques will be a great leap forward for other libs.


----------



## charlieclouser (Jul 23, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> he can edit his posts ... he cannot edit a PDF of his posts someone already downloaded ... only want to be respectful of that


It's absolutely fine by me that you made a PDF and posted it. Although if I'd known that I was writing an unofficial owner's manual I might have proofread it a little better! 

But it's fine. Maybe when I am bored one night I will touch it up and expand upon it, but for the most part it seems nobody needs to have the more common and basic features explained, just the weird / new ones mostly.


----------



## charlieclouser (Jul 23, 2021)

itsyourself said:


> This is the beauty of collaboration and reaching out, one of Christian's great merits at getting people involved. A lot of these techniques will be a great leap forward for other libs.


Yes, Christian was *relentless* in his persuading and prodding for us to do something, anything, together. Over the course of a couple of years he kept revisiting the subject until he broke my will and I could resist no longer!

His enthusiasm for new sounds and new collaborators is bottomless, and I'm grateful he deemed me worthy!

I'm quite pleased to be a part of the extended Spitfire family, and the entire experience has been great from my end.... and rest assured we're already brainstorming on what we might do next together.

I kind of wanted to get these drums out of the way first since I knew it would be the most logistically complex to record, and would require the most serious investment of time on my part to process and mix the recordings and prepare them for editing. For me this was not by any means a case of showing up to supervise the sessions and then walking away and waiting for the results - I didn't let the Spitfire team start on any editing until I had spent months tweaking the recordings and editing the Loop performances, and then once they started digesting that content I dove into doing the Warps, which was another stupidly long process. It all took FAR longer than I thought it would to complete my end, but I couldn't just shove it out there half-baked. Glad people seem to be liking it so far!


----------



## muziksculp (Jul 23, 2021)

@charlieclouser ,

I noticed that Christian Henson showed a Low-Pass filter option available in Hammers, I love messing around with filters to distort, and tweak percussive sounds, so maybe a few more types of filters, could be added in the future, I also didn't hear too much of an effect when C.H. tweaked the filter knob all the way up, not sure why. How good is the LPF filter in Hammers for sound sculpting the sounds further, also dynamically automating the filters can lead to some crazy, and unique very dynamic sounds


----------



## itsyourself (Jul 23, 2021)

That's great to hear, Charlie. I'm sure the programmers like being pushed to come up with new solutions and techniques too. Can't wait to see what you come up with next, now you have a good working relationship. I especially like the thought you've put into playing it, and interacting with it in a live way to get organic results, like you would with a traditional musical instrument. That makes the whole sample lib experience so much more musical and enjoyable. With older libs I always felt it was more like programming than playing music. Your approach is definitely the latter.
(Now you've got the engine, wouldn't be hard to do a percussion and tuned percussion version, would it?)


----------



## David Kudell (Jul 23, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> I'm quite pleased to be a part of the extended Spitfire family, and the entire experience has been great from my end.... and rest assured we're already brainstorming on what we might do next together.


May I suggest something with that giant metal plate contraption in your studio? I had the pleasure (or displeasure?) of hearing it when we filmed your LA Creatives episode and it was quite possibly the scariest sound I’ve ever heard.


----------



## Niah2 (Jul 23, 2021)

David Kudell said:


> May I suggest something with that giant metal plate contraption in your studio? I had the pleasure (or displeasure?) of hearing it when we filmed your LA Creatives episode and it was quite possibly the scariest sound I’ve ever heard.




Would love that too since I saw this video years ago !


----------



## charlieclouser (Jul 23, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> @charlieclouser ,
> How good is the LPF filter in Hammers for sound sculpting the sounds further


The filter in Hammers is definitely not a sound sculpting filter, it no resonance control, and a very narrow range that was tweaked specifically to be used as a way to simulate the effect of playing more softly when using Loops that have only a single dynamic layer. It’s a “soft dynamics” filter as opposed to any sort of creative mangler.

We all have a zillion great creative filter plugins - even the stock ones in Logic are killer - so I deemed it not too important to try to develop and test one from scratch for Hammers. If we had tried to do that, it wouldn’t be released for another two years!

Besides, there are the Warps Loops, so I’ve done a lot of the work already....


----------



## muziksculp (Jul 23, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> We all have a zillion great creative filter plugins


Yes, that's what I thought, it's wise you didn't bother with adding sophisticated filters, and make us wait another 2 years for this library  I have a good selection of filter plugins I can use, so no problemo.

I don't use Logic Pro, my DAW is Studio One Pro 5/Windows 10 it has some good filters as well, but I prefer third-party dedicated filter plugins. 

Thanks.


----------



## John R Wilson (Jul 23, 2021)

Sounds very nice. I love how clean, clear and punchy this library sounds! Not a library I will get at the moment though as I have enough percussion libraries. Shame I cant try it out.


----------



## alchemist (Jul 23, 2021)

Just downloaded and had a quick play through some mics and sections, so much to explore but already very impressed by the sound. Would never have believed you if you told me growing up one day I'd own a library recorded by Charlie Clouser.. we're so spoiled these days and I love it haha


----------



## itsyourself (Jul 24, 2021)

Thanks for the tip off about Chas Smith and his amazing instruments. Here is a short profile of him:


----------



## Russell Anderson (Jul 25, 2021)

Symfoniq said:


> I have Damage 2, but I'm more curious about how Hammers compares to LA Modern Percussion, which I also own.
> 
> However, I might just go ahead and get Hammers on account of Charlie being such a helpful member of the community. I'm sure it would get some use.


This is my question as well. I actually plan on getting Damage 2, but I want to pair it with something a little cleaner... I think? It doesn’t help that I can’t find a systematic breakdown of it like @Cory Pelizzari has for LAMP on Youtube, which was insanely helpful. I haven’t even been able to find a full instrument list, just soaring reviews.

I’m really curious to hear peoples’ thoughts on these 3;
Hammers vs. LAMP and
Hammers vs. Damage
(pretty comfortable with LAMP vs. Damage)

The whole mix 1-3 thing seem to put it in this in-between-y spot. I should add that this library does sound great. Some of the muted hits, metals, and mixes are super amazing.


----------



## zeng (Jul 25, 2021)

Hello all, and thank you Charlie and Spitfire for this great library. I have a very short question; are loops in midi form and can we drag n drop them for editing? Or just audio loops?


----------



## wilifordmusic (Jul 25, 2021)

zeng said:


> Hello all, and thank you Charlie and Spitfire for this great library. I have a very short question; are loops in midi form and can we drag n drop them for editing? Or just audio loops?


From one of the videos, "audio performances only" no midi exists.


----------



## Soundbed (Jul 25, 2021)

Russell Anderson said:


> This is my question as well. I actually plan on getting Damage 2, but I want to pair it with something a little cleaner... I think? It doesn’t help that I can’t find a systematic breakdown of it like @Cory Pelizzari has for LAMP on Youtube, which was insanely helpful. I haven’t even been able to find a full instrument list, just soaring reviews.
> 
> I’m really curious to hear peoples’ thoughts on these 3;
> Hammers vs. LAMP and
> ...


LAMP is pretty different from Hammers imho. Both in use and in sound. I probably won’t be using it as much, now that I have Hammers. So far I like the processing @charlieclouser did in Hammers more than what I do with LAMP. However if I need to start with excellently recorded samples and treat them with a different aesthetic not in Hammers, then I will pick LAMP. 

(I gave my thoughts versus Damage2 in a previous post.)


----------



## easyrider (Jul 25, 2021)

@charlieclouser whats that Alesis Q88 midi keyboard like?


Asking for a friend


----------



## David Kudell (Jul 25, 2021)

Russell Anderson said:


> This is my question as well. I actually plan on getting Damage 2, but I want to pair it with something a little cleaner... I think? It doesn’t help that I can’t find a systematic breakdown of it like @Cory Pelizzari has for LAMP on Youtube, which was insanely helpful. I haven’t even been able to find a full instrument list, just soaring reviews.
> 
> I’m really curious to hear peoples’ thoughts on these 3;
> Hammers vs. LAMP and
> ...


Hammers has so many other cool features that it’d make a great compliment to either, especially for the modern underscore stuff. I love LAMP, you should definitely check out the $3 Taste library to get a idea of the sound.


----------



## charlieclouser (Jul 25, 2021)

easyrider said:


> @charlieclouser whats that Alesis Q88 midi keyboard like?
> 
> 
> Asking for a friend


Terrible. I love it. The Q88 is just a rebadged M-Audio Keystation 88es - except it doesn't have those annoying transport control buttons right where my right wrist needs to rest to reach my trackball. However, the Alesis does have a slightly different ROM, or something, that causes it to connect intermittently when using the USB output. Logic would keep flashing that "The number of MIDI inputs has changed" notification out of nowhere.

So what's a guy to do? Simple. Buy a Keystation to replace the Alesis, then take the top panel from the Alesis, swap all the sub-boards in the top panel with those in the Keystation, and stick the Alesis-top-panel-with-Keystation-boards onto the Keystation bottom half.

Voila - an unholy hybrid that is actually a Keystation with all Keystation guts but with an Alesis top panel and hideous logo.

Doesn't matter anyway as both are discontinued, but I have a few stashed.

I did get the Keystation 88mk3 and it's a basically the same clacky (but fast) synth action key bed with a clean and smooth top panel, but it's a little smaller and thus is not an exact drop-in replacement in my precisely aligned setup, so it's still in my storage room. Alesis also does a rebadged version I think called the Q88mk2. 

All of them are terrible, worth every penny of the sub-$300 price.


----------



## easyrider (Jul 25, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Terrible. I love it. The Q88 is just a rebadged M-Audio Keystation 88es - except it doesn't have those annoying transport control buttons right where my right wrist needs to rest to reach my trackball. However, the Alesis does have a slightly different ROM, or something, that causes it to connect intermittently when using the USB output. Logic would keep flashing that "The number of MIDI inputs has changed" notification out of nowhere.
> 
> So what's a guy to do? Simple. Buy a Keystation to replace the Alesis, then take the top panel from the Alesis, swap all the sub-boards in the top panel with those in the Keystation, and stick the Alesis-top-panel-with-Keystation-boards onto the Keystation bottom half.
> 
> ...


NICE! 👍😂

Im using an old Roland F-130R piano I dismantled to fit under my desk. 🤓


----------



## Zedcars (Jul 25, 2021)

Hi Charlie and SA dev team. I've just started playing with it in the last 10 minutes but so far it seems pretty deep (deep maaaan!).

Feature Request: Ability to switch Loops to half-speed so that it is still following the tempo but does so at 0.5x speed. Actually, this idea could be expanded to include 2x and even 1/3 time to give a triplet feel. And also a swing knob?? Might not be possible, but thought it was worth asking.


----------



## charlieclouser (Jul 25, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> LAMP is pretty different from Hammers imho. Both in use and in sound. I probably won’t be using it as much, now that I have Hammers. So far I like the processing @charlieclouser did in Hammers more than what I do with LAMP. However if I need to start with excellently recorded samples and treat them with a different aesthetic not in Hammers, then I will pick LAMP.
> 
> (I gave my thoughts versus Damage2 in a previous post.)


Glad you're liking the sound of Hammers. Here's a thesis-length diatribe on the sound:

The reasoning behind the sound of Hammers was that I grew exhausted of needing to do major processing to libraries X-Y-Z, struggling to get a phat and juicy sound that matched whatever drums I had recorded myself - and that I heard in my head. They just wouldn't match up without putting in major work every single time. Often their close mics sounded like thwacks on cardboard - no juice and no beef - and the rooms were just so huge that playing any kind of fast patterns unleashed a cloud of overlapping reverb mud that I couldn't use. For isolated "boom-boom" parts, fine - but not actual "drum parts". And I think it's always easier to add reverb than to take it away.

Early in the stage when Christian was trying to convince me to do something like Hammers, I sent him a random two-bar loop of some toms from something I had recorded at my place and processed as I usually do - and that's when he really turned his persuasive skills up to eleven!

But at first I was reluctant to record the library at my place. It's one thing to record performances for my own scores here - any rough edges will likely be covered up by other instruments or by the SFX of some on-screen victim screaming while his arm gets pulled off or whatever. But those rough edges won't fly in a commercially released sample library. Someone will start a forum thread or make a Youtube video talking about some microscopic defect if they can find any.

So in the planning stages I actually recorded a test set of single hits here, just three toms, a frame drum, and a darbuka. Four velocity layers, nine round robins, with three stereo pairs of mics - close, overheads, and room - and then I went to a beautiful scoring stage (that shall remain nameless), hauled all my drums, mics, and gear in there, and recorded the exact same set of samples through the exact same gear and with the exact same mics and mic placements, using none of their gear at all, just their room.

I then did some light processing, mixed down the three pairs into a "Mix 1", and chopped and mapped the samples into Kontakt. I sent these playable sample instruments to the Spitfire team to compare and help decide whether to record at my place or at the fancy-schmancy scoring stage.

While the bigger room had a lovely (and longer) reverb decay, the reverb sounded oddly separated from the drum sounds unless you boosted the room mics and let them start to take over. There was always some long reverb behind the close and overhead mics that was quiet but was still there, and sounded like an effects send to a Bricasti that was mistakenly not turned all the way off.

To my surprise, it sounded weirdly fake.

With enough processing (transient designers, etc.) I could reduce, but not eliminate, the level of that ghost reverb, but I couldn't really do anything about the length of it without really making it sound more fake and (to me) worse. I then tried adding short reverbs to the recordings from the stage, hoping that it would help to bridge the gap and blur that uncanny-valley-sounding separation between the drums and the room, and then things really started to sound fake. I have thousands of IR files, from dozens of sources, and I also have every plugin reverb known to man as well as an H-9000 and some TC hardware reverbs - and I tried them all. I even took my files to a buddy's place who has an AMS, a 480, a TC6000 with all the options, and a Bricasti, and we did our best there, working with the sampled and mapped instruments to get a sound, and then bouncing the raw recordings through the hardware, and I chopped and mapped those results as well. But it all sounded like fake short reverb with weird ghostly long reverb behind it.

So then I did some quick tests where I added longer reverb to the test recordings from my place to see if I could lengthen that sound and successfully simulate a bigger space. I expended very little effort on those tests, only making it about four presets deep into my IR library before I printed those results as well and sent them to the Spitfire team.

The decision was unanimous - my place sounded more aggro. For these drum recordings, my assumptions held - it's easier to add reverb than it is to remove it, and artificial / added reverb works better when it's long than it does when it's short. Algorithmic or convolution didn't matter - it was all about the early reflections that are captured at the moment of recording, and in a big scoring stage those just don't exist in the same form as they do in a smaller, denser, brighter, harsher space like at my place. On the stage, the walls are just too far away and too well-treated to create that burst of density that the hard surfaces and asymmetrical shape of my place just naturally had.

When's the last time you saw a scoring stage (or any "drum room") with anything other than a wooden floor? Concrete floors are usually a no-no unless it's the "loading dock" room at A&M / Henson or whatever, and are usually only used for special effects. And walls of glass and shot-blasted concrete block? Fuhgeddaboudit. Nobody in their right mind would build a drum room that way. But I would.

The micro-porous surface texture of the shot-blasted concrete block walls behaves very differently to a painted block wall, or even a non-shot-blasted one - it's like a micro-diffuser or something. Happy accident I guess. But it's the asymmetry in the shape of the space that makes the biggest difference. That one wall that's angled at 15 degrees from parallel, with a little glass alcove next to the front door, the catwalk with wooden treads and perforated metal sheets below the railings, the weird alcove in the kitchen area, the stairway at the back that's also angled 15 degrees and gets narrower as it ascends, the loft area at the back, the partition wall that doesn't quite reach the ceiling - it's a weird space for sure. Very much the result of major creative whimsy on the part of the architect!

Another aspect that contributes to the drum sound I like is that sunken seating area by my fireplace. Conventional wisdom seems to be to put the drums up on a drum riser, supposedly to let the low end "breathe" or whatever. And, indeed, at my previous house, which also had a sunken living room and was all concrete and glass, at first I put the drums up on the higher level to simulate that effect, and I even brought in an actual 8x8x2 drum riser at one point. But once I tried putting them down "in the pit" I found an unexpected result: The low end was more controlled, and was still very much in effect on the close and overhead mics, but the energy being thrown out into the room was more organic, brighter, and much less muddy and boomy. That was a lightbulb moment. So when I found this house with a similar setup I knew it would work.

And it does. A couple of rugs in the pit to control the brightness down there, point the drums out into the room, and I can easily get a balanced sound from all the mic positions, and all of them take processing well, which allows me to eq and compress at will without bringing up a cavernous, booming, muddy mess.

On trick that may be helpful for people trying to lengthen the reverb character of Hammers, besides just using the built-in convolution reverb and the dozen IR files we provided, or just slapping on a longer reverb from Seventh Heaven , VSS3, UAD, or ReLab, would be: Try routing just the Room mic channels from Hammers to a separate output, and put the longer reverb only (or more heavily) on those. Sometimes this lets you get wetter and helps the blend more. When you remove (or reduce) the sharp transients of the Close / Overhead mics from the reverb send more of the fakery disappears into the murk. If anyone is struggling with adding reverb to Hammers that would be my first suggestion. Most of the time this won't be needed, but for advanced users trying to precisely match the sound of Hammers with other libraries it might help. I actually never feel the need to go that far - usually a good dose of "Todd-AO Stage" IR on the whole output sounds great, but I did try this technique and it will allow you to get down into the weeds with the balance between wet and dry more precisely. And, of course, having the Room mics on a separate output lets you compress / eq / reverb / transient designer things endlessly as well. It's almost worth the supreme hassle of dealing with separate outputs in Logic!


----------



## muziksculp (Jul 25, 2021)

Hi @charlieclouser ,

I love reading your posts about the making of Hammers, and many of the details you mention. It's wonderful to see your spirit of sharing your experience on this forum. I feel your love to your craft.  

OK... I decided, I'm buying Hammers today. 

Thanks to all the effort, and creative energy you put into this project, along with the SA development team.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## charlieclouser (Jul 25, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @charlieclouser ,
> 
> I love reading your posts about the making of Hammers, and many of the details you mention. It's wonderful to see your spirit of sharing your experience on this forum. I feel your love to your craft.
> 
> ...


Hahaha thanks man! Enjoy Hammers!


----------



## muziksculp (Jul 25, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Hahaha thanks man! Enjoy Hammers!


I'm sure I will.

Thanks 😎👍


----------



## muziksculp (Jul 25, 2021)




----------



## Grizzlymv (Jul 25, 2021)

Zedcars said:


> Feature Request: Ability to switch Loops to half-speed so that it is still following the tempo but does so at 0.5x speed. Actually, this idea could be expanded to include 2x and even 1/3 time to give a triplet feel. And also a swing knob?? Might not be possible, but thought it was worth asking.


I thought of exactly the same while I was trying to use the loop in one of my track. wasn't able to fit them at their current speed (way too fast for that particular track), but having the option to run them half speed would definitely have been great. As long as it doesn't alter the pitch though, which I'm not sure how great it would turn out given it's recorded loops and not a midi performance. But if possible, definitely something I'd like to see there!


----------



## muziksculp (Jul 25, 2021)

Grizzlymv said:


> I thought of exactly the same while I was trying to use the loop in one of my track. wasn't able to fit them at their current speed (way too fast for that particular track), but having the option to run them half speed would definitely have been great. As long as it doesn't alter the pitch though, which I'm not sure how great it would turn out given it's recorded loops and not a midi performance. But if possible, definitely something I'd like to see there!


Midi-Loops would have been more useful, although I rarely, or almost never like using Loops.


----------



## charlieclouser (Jul 25, 2021)

Grizzlymv said:


> I thought of exactly the same while I was trying to use the loop in one of my track. wasn't able to fit them at their current speed (way too fast for that particular track), but having the option to run them half speed would definitely have been great. As long as it doesn't alter the pitch though, which I'm not sure how great it would turn out given it's recorded loops and not a midi performance. But if possible, definitely something I'd like to see there!


Half-speed would be an interesting option for sure, I'll be sure to mention it to the dev team. But you can be sure that a pitch-corrected half-speed loop will show major artifacts no matter what stretch engine is used.

When I use half-speed audio loops (which is quite often actually) it's always in Ableton and always using the equivalent of the Retro Pitch algorithm in Hammers. The loops get slowed down and NOT pitch-corrected, resulting in an underwater, slowed-down-old-school style sound. I use this for a special effect and not as a way to use a 150BPM loop at 75BPM and hope that it still sounds realistic. 

But I agree it would be a good option to have in Hammers, especially for the Warps where realism has already flown out the window!

One cool thing I've done a few times: I've had a few cues that gradually got faster towards the end, like from 110 to 140 BPM or similar, and I had some of my drum performances in Ableton with the time-stretch mode set to whatever the Ableton equivalent of our Retro Pitch is. Then, as the tempo gets faster, the loops start pitching upwards to follow the tempo changes. I only did this for a few elements in a bigger stack of tracks, otherwise the whole thing would have just sounded like playing the tape faster as it went, but when those few elements had their pitch tracking the tempo it was a cool effect and added to the urgency towards the end of the cue.

This exact same effect can be achieved in Hammers using the Retro Pitch stretch mode. As the host tempo changes, the loops will be re-pitched to follow, both upwards and downwards. A very cool effect when used for special occasions.


----------



## charlieclouser (Jul 25, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Midi-Loops would have been more useful, although I rarely, or almost never like using Loops.


I guess the reason I never considered having MIDI loops was that I've never used them, unless it's in something like Action Strikes where the whole thing is made from single hits that are playing carefully manicured MIDI files - and in that library I don't think you can drag-n-drop those MIDI files into your DAW to mess with them further, they are just acting as if they were audio loops but without the possibility of artifacts from time-stretching. By the time i've auditioned and selected which MIDI loop to use I could have just programmed my own in less time and moved on.

While it would be possible to create a library of MIDI files that replicate the audio loops in Hammers, I sure don't look forward to that task! And some of the loops couldn't be sonically duplicated using the single hits we sampled, things like the brushes on darbuka rims, jazz-style brushing on the frame drums, etc. That type of thing can really only exist as a recorded audio performances. And speaking as someone who has attempted to map sampled jazzy brushing into playable single-hit maps I shudder at the thought. But for the main toms, surdos, and more basic loop performances it would surely work pretty well.

How to go about integrating a drag-n-drop MIDI file player into the Spitfire engine would be a question for the dev team. However, if such a thing existed it would also give the ability to add many more MIDI loops beyond those that just duplicate what's been played in the audio loop performances, so it might be worth a look on their part.


----------



## Zedcars (Jul 25, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Half-speed would be an interesting option for sure, I'll be sure to mention it to the dev team. But you can be sure that a pitch-corrected half-speed loop will show major artifacts no matter what stretch engine is used.
> 
> When I use half-speed audio loops (which is quite often actually) it's always in Ableton and always using the equivalent of the Retro Pitch algorithm in Hammers. The loops get slowed down and NOT pitch-corrected, resulting in an underwater, slowed-down-old-school style sound. I use this for a special effect and not as a way to use a 150BPM loop at 75BPM and hope that it still sounds realistic.
> 
> But I agree it would be a good option to have in Hammers, especially for the Warps where realism has already flown out the window!


The way I envisioned this working much more transparently, is to have the devs run all these loops through Melodyne and then export as MIDI (this retains the hit velocities and timing nuances). Then have a (for want of a better phrase) Flexi-Loop counterparts which replicate all of the loops using the single hits. The plugin would need to be able to play back the MIDI files/phrases internally. These could then be freely manipulated within the plugin to use swing, half-time, double-time, 1/3 time etc. Some very very interesting possibilities would open up if this could be done.

However, I recognise this will be a ton of work and may not be a direction you wish to go in.

Alternatively, the loops could be made available as MIDI files separately. Although, that doesn't sound as nice as having it all built in to the plugin.

Edit: Only just saw your reply above which addresses my points.


----------



## muziksculp (Jul 25, 2021)

Honestly, if Hammers didn't include any loops, I would be very happy with it, and not complain about not having loops. Sorry, but I'm Not a fan of loops, be they midi or audio. Plus, I would also save some extra SSD space.


----------



## charlieclouser (Jul 25, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Honestly, if Hammers didn't include any loops, I would be very happy with it, and not complain about not having loops. Sorry, but I'm Not a fan of loops, be they midi or audio. Plus, I would also save some extra SSD space.


Well, maybe Spitfire can be convinced to release a "lite" version that's just the hits, with no Loops or Warps. Call it "Hammer Hits" or something? Or split it into two sub-versions, just the hits and just the loops+warps. Buy one, upgrade to both for the difference in price? That's on them to decide. But it might be a cool option.


----------



## charlieclouser (Jul 25, 2021)

Zedcars said:


> The way I envisioned this working much more transparently, is to have the devs run all these loops through Melodyne and then export as MIDI (this retains the hit velocities and timing nuances). Then have a (for want of a better phrase) Flexi-Loop counterparts which replicate all of the loops using the single hits. The plugin would need to be able to play back the MIDI files/phrases internally. These could then be freely manipulated within the plugin to use swing, half-time, double-time, 1/3 time etc. Some very very interesting possibilities would open up if this could be done.


For sure this would be a cool idea, I'll be mentioning it to the team in our follow-up on the release.


----------



## Geoff Grace (Jul 25, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Honestly, if Hammers didn't include any loops, I would be very happy with it, and not complain about not having loops. Sorry, but I'm Not a fan of loops, be they midi or audio. Plus, I would also save some extra SSD space.


I don't normally use loops either; but as these are parted out construction-style, I may wind up using bits and pieces here and there.

Best,

Geoff


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Jul 25, 2021)

MIDI loops never sound the same as actually recorded loops, especially if you are going to re-arrange the MIDI notes. You mess with all that bleed and decay of the original recording. The loops in Hammers are as Geoff put it "construction" loops - intelligently broken down into sections (but not individual hits), so you do get some flexibility but still retain that performed feel to them. If you want MIDI loops, just use individual hits and go to GrooveMonkey or something (or program your own sequences).


----------



## Zedcars (Jul 25, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> MIDI loops never sound the same as actually recorded loops, especially if you are going to re-arrange the MIDI notes. You mess with all that bleed and decay of the original recording. The loops in Hammers are as Geoff put it "construction" loops - intelligently broken down into sections (but not individual hits), so you do get some flexibility but still retain that performed feel to them. If you want MIDI loops, just use individual hits and go to GrooveMonkey or something (or program your own sequences).


This is true. But if there were MIDI loop counterparts as well, they would not be replacing the live loops, merely adding flexibility.


----------



## wilifordmusic (Jul 25, 2021)

Charlie, perhaps just an add-on/separate library of midi loops performed by you using the single hits in Hammers.
Authentic Charlie Clouser drumming magic with the ability to adjust the loop speeds and substitute different instruments to take it even further.
Shoot, I'd buy that just to try in other libraries as well.

And yes, after payday I'll be picking up Hammers.


----------



## Toecutter (Jul 25, 2021)

sopwith said:


> Dang - if I'd known this was coming, I woulda bought this instead of JXL. As a non-Damage-owner, it looks like it covers a lot of ground.


Yep I almost fell for it XD I don't write music that calls for modern drums but I collect percussion samples (one never kown when that one hit will come in handy) and my initial impressions based on the first look video was that Hammers sounded like something between modern pounding stuff and tasty organic drums. I'm glad I skipped JXL perc because that one didn't connect with me. And the way it's mapped is just weird imo. Hammers was an instant purchase after I watched the first look video, it's all Charlie ofc but Spitifre don't forget we're using Hammers too 

Digesting Charlie's posts, I'm fucking floored with his comitment here. The library is good enough and I would be satisfied with my purchase as is but reading all the tips and absorving a veteran's knowledge is just next level. Thanks for your contribution and pushing the Spitfire player to its limit @charlieclouser !!


----------



## charlieclouser (Jul 25, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> Digesting Charlie's posts, I'm fucking floored with his comitment here. The library is good enough and I would be satisfied with my purchase as is but reading all the tips and absorving a veteran's knowledge is just next level. Thanks for your contribution and pushing the Spitfire player to its limit @charlieclouser !!


Hey, you're very welcome - it's the only way I'm comfortable working. If I'm going to do something like this, I want to do it right and thoroughly or not at all.

And I do have the D and D2, JXL, and LAMP libraries, as well as pretty much every other one out there, and they've all got their strengths and weaknesses, just like Hammers. But I wanted Hammers to address a very particular gap that I perceived in other libraries, and most of all, to make something that I could and would use right out of the box every day. Massive credit to the Spitfire player dev team for not getting fed up with all my ludicrous requests as the thing took shape, and to their sample edit team for getting all zillion of those start points razor-tight.

We're already scheming about what to collaborate on next, and I think there's another big gap in the sample library market that we can address.... but we shall see....


----------



## wilifordmusic (Jul 25, 2021)

String Quartet without all the weird room sound and funky vibrato?
With boots on?


----------



## Russell Anderson (Jul 25, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> LAMP is pretty different from Hammers imho. Both in use and in sound. I probably won’t be using it as much, now that I have Hammers. So far I like the processing @charlieclouser did in Hammers more than what I do with LAMP. However if I need to start with excellently recorded samples and treat them with a different aesthetic not in Hammers, then I will pick LAMP.
> 
> (I gave my thoughts versus Damage2 in a previous post.)


Have you had time to play with the Mix 2 + 3?

I like how the library can sound both contained and big at the same time and can flex around either pole, it has a really good type of studio sound. The metals are also surprisingly cool and the integration of reverse hits is extremely useful, overall very good I think, great workflow for a great sound.


----------



## José Herring (Jul 25, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> His enthusiasm for new sounds and new collaborators is bottomless, and I'm grateful he deemed me worthy!
> 
> I'm quite pleased to be a part of the extended Spitfire family, and the entire experience has been great from my end.... and rest assured we're already brainstorming on what we might do next together.



A Charlie Clouser Albion series. Sawbion

edit: I'm being serious too. I'd be down for a library in the style of the Saw franchines. Dark, gritty, heavy brass, strings, low woodwinds and synths.


----------



## jcrosby (Jul 25, 2021)

José Herring said:


> A Charlie Clouser Albion series. Sawbion
> 
> edit: I'm being serious too. I'd be down for a library in the style of the Saw franchines. Dark, gritty, heavy brass, strings, low woodwinds and synths.


I'd prefer the moniker Albi-ouser  It has a certain ring to it...


----------



## Soundbed (Jul 26, 2021)

Russell Anderson said:


> Have you had time to play with the Mix 2 + 3?


Yes. They all sound great.


----------



## geronimo (Jul 26, 2021)

In this regard, by operating from the SIGNAL Mixer page, the Mix 1, 2 and 3 sliders, this cuts and cancels the previous one selected; this does not happen for the other faders for the following signals. 

We can combine them except the first three, I have the impression. t's a bit confusing, isn't it?


----------



## mussnig (Jul 26, 2021)

geronimo said:


> In this regard, by operating from the SIGNAL Mixer page, the Mix 1, 2 and 3 sliders, this cuts and cancels the previous one selected; this does not happen for the other faders for the following signals.
> 
> We can combine them except the first three, I have the impression. t's a bit confusing, isn't it?


I don't have the library yet but I think it was mentioned that you have the option to turn this behavior off in the settings of the plugin.

As far as I understand the mixes stand for themselves and are not designed to be combined with the other signals (I guess you might encounter phasing but maybe not). So if you do this it's kind of your own responsibility (in terms of sound).


----------



## geronimo (Jul 26, 2021)

Yes, you're right _

So I found in Settings -> Interface: Enable automatic exclusive mic group behavior Option. Need to have it on Disable in my choice of work; thank you _


----------



## zeng (Jul 26, 2021)

Well, are you going to use any plugin such as "compressor" on Hammers? Or is it enough by itself on recordings?


----------



## stixman (Jul 26, 2021)

I used to go out and get hammered now I go to VI-Control forum and get a Hammering 😜


----------



## charlieclouser (Jul 26, 2021)

geronimo said:


> In this regard, by operating from the SIGNAL Mixer page, the Mix 1, 2 and 3 sliders, this cuts and cancels the previous one selected; this does not happen for the other faders for the following signals.
> 
> We can combine them except the first three, I have the impression. t's a bit confusing, isn't it?


Although this behavior can be disabled, the reason we made Mix 1/2/3 exclusive to the other individual mic positions in the Signals page is because the individual mic positions are what were used to create the Mixes, and it is possible that if you enable a Mix AND one or more individual mic positions then you might hear phasing / flanging / other weird and undesirable sonic results. So this was done to prevent users from just enabling all faders and getting weird sounds and thinking something is wrong.

But we recognize that this will not happen in every combination of Signals, and also some users may be using individual outputs to process the various Signals in ways that will prevent the phasing / flanging, so we made it an option - but we left the default behavior that the Signals are exclusive until the user manually enables the non-exclusive behavior.


----------



## geronimo (Jul 26, 2021)

Many thanks for the clarification; it's quite logical and emanates from a great consideration of the user.


----------



## Zedcars (Jul 27, 2021)

Has anyone tried this with the Sensel Morph with drum overlay? I have been thinking about getting a drum trigger specifically for Hammers. I used to play drums when I was 16-17 but have only been a finger drummer since (still have my drum sticks in a cupboard somewhere). I wonder if there are better options or if the Sensel will be a great option for me? I like the idea of changing the overlays and having an MPE capable device.


----------



## Evans (Jul 27, 2021)

This is one of my few "wow, this was a good purchase" reactions within the first few key presses. Another being Berlin Strings Special Bows, and Afflatus being another.

It _feels_ as good as it sounds. Or, rather, there's no room for distinction. The feel and the sound are the same entity, and it rips.


----------



## andyhy (Jul 27, 2021)

easyrider said:


> NICE! 👍😂
> 
> Im using an old Roland F-130R piano I dismantled to fit under my desk. 🤓


Good job. I was told my old Roland Fantom G8 with its 88 weighted keys wasn't compatible with Windows 10. I was about replace it when I spotted a fix on the internet for the Win 8 driver, so I made the changes recommended using notepad and voila it works fine. Admittedly every time there's a major Windows 10 update (emphasis major as most regular updates don't require it) I have to go through the unregistered driver acceptance process again but that's a small price to pay. I can even use the built-in 8 sliders and 4 knobs for dynamics etc. Don't need a separate midi controller. Similarly the Zoom R16 I use gives me a lot of additional control over tracks. Taught me a lesson that you don't have to keep on buying new kit if you can adapt what you already have. Very tempted by Hammers as a result of the @charlieclouser walkthroughs and his very helpful comments in this forum. Great guy!


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Jul 29, 2021)




----------



## kevinh (Jul 29, 2021)

Scottyb said:


> This sounds VERY, very good!! Love the 9x RR too! Makes a big difference! I will spend some more time checking this out tonight! Don't mind the 100GB at all - it's worth it! I have to ask. Any chance at all of NKS version of this? : /


I downloaded and to my surprise shows up in KK w/previews. I didn’t see NKS listed anywhere so was a happy surprise. All controls are mapped so really nice.


----------



## charlieclouser (Jul 30, 2021)

kevinh said:


> I downloaded and to my surprise shows up in KK w/previews. I didn’t see NKS listed anywhere so was a happy surprise. All controls are mapped so really nice.


Yes, I believe NKS was included from the start. I don't use an NI keyboard or NKS or KK so I could not test, but that's an aspect that is important to many users so Spitfire wasn't going to let that one slide...


----------



## kevinh (Jul 30, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Yes, I believe NKS was included from the start. I don't use an NI keyboard or NKS or KK so I could not test, but that's an aspect that is important to many users so Spitfire wasn't going to let that one slide...


Awesome library. Congrats. NKS is pretty important for my workflow and I couldn’t find any info it was supported. Glad it is


----------



## Fever Phoenix (Jul 30, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Yes, Christian was *relentless* in his persuading and prodding for us to do something, anything, together. Over the course of a couple of years he kept revisiting the subject until he broke my will and I could resist no longer!
> 
> His enthusiasm for new sounds and new collaborators is bottomless, and I'm grateful he deemed me worthy!
> 
> ...


thank you for all the insight and congratulations on the release. I look forward to check it out!


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Aug 3, 2021)




----------



## soulofsound (Aug 3, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


>



I think it sounds quite nimble and refined, classy, like that awesome intro from Spectre. Nothing like the architect's brutalist dream they seem to think is necessary to talk about in the marketing drivel.


----------



## muziksculp (Aug 8, 2021)




----------



## soulofsound (Aug 8, 2021)

He kicks ass with those drums (and the awesome loops). There is a little machine gun effect i am quite allergic for. They had it in the AR flutes they recently released too.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Aug 8, 2021)

soulofsound said:


> He kicks ass with those drums (and the awesome loops). There is a little machine gun effect i am quite allergic for. They had it in the AR flutes they recently released too.


If you want to hear some "kick ass" programming with this, check out Christian's or Paul's videos (and of course, Charlie's walkthrough of his SAW track - though different style of programming there).

No machine gun effect I'm hearing over here (and I imagine Charlie's ears wouldn't have allowed it to go out with that).


----------



## soulofsound (Aug 8, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> If you want to hear some "kick ass" programming with this, check out Christian's or Paul's videos (and of course, Charlie's walkthrough of his SAW track - though different style of programming there).
> 
> No machine gun effect I'm hearing over here (and I imagine Charlie's ears wouldn't have allowed it to go out with that).


You don't hear it in the toms? Must be me then.


----------



## charlieclouser (Aug 8, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> No machine gun effect I'm hearing over here (and I imagine Charlie's ears wouldn't have allowed it to go out with that).


Yeah, there shouldn't be any machine-gun effect when using any of the single hits patches. It is possible to restrict the number of round-robins using controls in the UI to force machine-gunning should you want this, but the default behavior for single hits patches is 9x round-robin across every dynamic layer. We recorded a minimum of 16 hits for every dynamic layer so that we could pick the best 9 of them to get the smoothest round-robin behavior.

The round-robins match VERY closely to each other, and this is on purpose - I hate hearing a little tap-dance pattern of not-very-closely-matched round-robin samples cycling around. It's always annoying to me when I can hear enough difference in tone or attack between the round-robins so that I can actually count them as they go by. To my ears they should be as close as possible to each other without actually being the same sample repeated.

Be aware that the end hits that are part of the Loops + Warps patches are just single samples with no dynamic layers or round robins, so if you're programming an actual part with those (which would be pretty awkward due to the mapping) then it is possible to trigger the same sample twice in a row, and of course this can also happen when re-triggering the Loops to create a new pattern, but that's expected and correct behavior.


----------



## andyhy (Aug 8, 2021)

muziksculp said:


>



I totally agree with Daniel James, the GUI for all the SA Player libraries definitely needs a rethink. The sounds of Hammers are great but the GUI is nowhere near comparable in terms of user-friendliness and its funerial appearance is not exactly inspiring. The @charlieclouser contribution to Hammers is superb but for me in terms of access to functions and appearance the SA GUI is a disappointment compared to say something like Heavyocity Ensemble or Damage 2. As a hobbyist I can spare the time to study the manual but if I was a working composer time is money. Just my opinion, you don't have to agree with me.


----------



## Evans (Aug 9, 2021)

Yeahhh, this could easily be its own forum topic with dozens of pages. The SA Player UI/UX itself is a detriment to succeeding with what are some amazing recordings.

One thing Daniel called out about 2/3 into the video that is uniquely a problem for Hammers (well, I assume also for other _percussion_-focused SA Player libs) is how hidden the keymapping descriptions are.

VSL does better on this with Synchron Player, given that the keyboard graphic has text above each zone that shows each zone's intent. The text is ridiculously small, but at least it exists without having to roll over it.

If it's going to be so hidden for SA Player, I'd at least like the option to remap the zones or keys to personal taste (a much bigger development effort, perhaps), as you can with Strezov's X3M instruments or Damage 2's ensemble designer.

As Daniel said, it's like Spitfire Audio does the minimum needed, Player-wise, to get a release out. That's fine if you're a SaaS company expected to continually iterate on your product. Not so for VIs that go into templates and need minimal disruption from there onward.

Obviously, Charlie himself has put a lot of thought and expertise into recordings and presentation here. But SA could have done him better.


----------



## holywilly (Aug 9, 2021)

One thing I like about Hammer’s keymap is the consistency, that’s a kudos. However I wish the mic positions in Spitfire plugin allows us to mute and solo instead of on and off.
@Spitfire Team should really be reading this thread.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Aug 9, 2021)

Evans said:


> As Daniel said, it's like Spitfire Audio does the minimum needed, Player-wise, to get a release out. That's fine if you're a SaaS company expected to continually iterate on your product. Not so for VIs that go into templates and need minimal disruption from there overall.


Nah, I disagree there. As Charlie has mentioned in this thread and the Commercial one, Spitfire added a bunch of new functionality into the player to support his vision. Want to see the bare minimum effort? Check out JXL Perc - OT didn’t do a single thing in SINE to make it more conducive to a percussion library. Same issue with Tallin (especially for the choirs).


----------



## GMT (Aug 9, 2021)

I know nothing about programming or the necessary skills for creating a player, but it seems that many companies have serious problems at the outset. Play was a disaster for ages. I only tried Sine once with a freebie and didn't have much success. Spitfire's player has its own issues, at least for me. Slow loading times, cpu hungry, and for some reason, it crashes my sessions from time to time. I'm not so bothered by the gui, but I understand why some are. 

Makes you appreciate how good Kontakt really is, I guess.


----------



## tmhuud (Aug 9, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Nah, I disagree there. As Charlie has mentioned in this thread and the Commercial one, Spitfire added a bunch of new functionality into the player to support his vision. Want to see the bare minimum effort? Check out JXL Perc - OT didn’t do a single thing in SINE to make it more conducive to a percussion library. Same issue with Tallin (especially for the choirs).


That’s a good point AND it’s curated!


----------



## Evans (Aug 9, 2021)

I'll concede that "bare minimum" in such strict words is (only slightly, imo) unfair for Hammers, but I'll stand by my low key rage (yes, I'm being dramatic) in respect to how rigidly SA locks themselves into the Player UI. I don't want a different UI each time, I just want a more thoughtful SA Player.

It feels like there are multiple, potential "quality of life" improvements that are obvious yet ignored in favor of some aesthetic standard they've chosen to stick with, or feel stuck with themselves.


----------



## charlieclouser (Aug 9, 2021)

As the years have gone by and my SSDs have filled up, I've come around to liking and preferring company-wide unified UI designs. Learn the ropes for product A, already be up to speed when product B is finished downloading.

From an artistic and design standpoint, I do admire slick and minimalist UI designs like the stuff from String Audio, but in some cases (like with my most recent purchase, Wave) I actually had to read the manual. The horror! But this shouldn't be needed. Why? Because, let's be real - a Kontakt library, *any* Kontakt library, is 90% a re-skin of the same handful of internal Kontakt fx modules like EQ, compression, reverb, etc. with perhaps some slick layer mixing, step sequencers, and stuff like that on top. The rest is 40-year-old sampler controls, like sample start point, velocity response curve, blah blah blah. Old hat. Even custom players like Sine, Spitfire, or Vienna are basically doing the same stuff for the most part.

So to me it feels like a bit of a waste of time to have to learn how to operate the same old, same old controls just because they've been re-skinned with a fancy new look. I actually breathe a small sigh of relief when I load up some cheap-n-cheerful Kontakt library that uses the Photosynthesis engine, because I know what it does and where to find the controls I want to grab, and I can just get down to work quickly without wondering if there's something amazing hiding behind an unfamiliar UI control. For a while there seemed to be a trend to try and make Kontakt libraries look like they could actually do more than the normal set of Kontakt fx modules, by creating uber-slick UI skins to give the illusion that something new was under the hood - which was never the case.

I'm pretty much long past the point of being inspired by the UI of a synth or library - I already know what I want to do, but where the hell is the filter envelope?!? Spitfire's EDNA engine in Kontakt still makes me groan when I load it up, but the consistency across many of their orchestral Kontakt libraries is a bit of a relief, even if the controls are microscopic on a 4k display. At lease you know at a glance what can be done and how to do it. (Just don't get me started on cyber-mechanical 3d background textures where elements look like they're clickable controls but are just part of the wallpaper....)

So I kind of like the direction that Spitfire (and others) are moving toward, which is a unified skin that can be applied to a variety of different sample content pools. I might not use HZ Strings for months (years?) at a time, but when I do it's no longer a mystery where the reverb depth control is.

If people don't like where the keyswitch controls or other stuff are in the Spitfire player, I understand. I never use key switches, so... whatever... but I get it. But I definitely understand and approve of the concept of moving toward a unified UI design. Unless the underlying engine is doing something totally radical that requires new methods of visualization and control - like granular-wavelet DNA-recombination tomfoolery - and is just a plain old sample player at heart, I actually prefer the unified UI approach.

Although I think I agree that I'd prefer conventional mute+solo switches on the Signals page of the Spitfire player...


----------



## Daniel James (Aug 9, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> As the years have gone by and my SSDs have filled up, I've come around to liking and preferring company-wide unified UI designs. Learn the ropes for product A, already be up to speed when product B is finished downloading.
> 
> From an artistic and design standpoint, I do admire slick and minimalist UI designs like the stuff from String Audio, but in some cases (like with my most recent purchase, Wave) I actually had to read the manual. The horror! But this shouldn't be needed. Why? Because, let's be real - a Kontakt library, *any* Kontakt library, is 90% a re-skin of the same handful of internal Kontakt fx modules like EQ, compression, reverb, etc. with perhaps some slick layer mixing, step sequencers, and stuff like that on top. The rest is 40-year-old sampler controls, like sample start point, velocity response curve, blah blah blah. Old hat. Even custom players like Sine, Spitfire, or Vienna are basically doing the same stuff for the most part.
> 
> ...


Again mate I love and respect your work greatly but in response to this one.

Firstly we can't let our own experience and wisdom cloud our judgment when designing a _product _for other people. Spitfire very intentionally targets new and upcoming composers. So while _*we*_ know roughly the ins and outs of how a sampler works, or general knowledge like how MIDI drums are usually laid out.....there is no guarantee that a new user will be able to work out how to even access all the content. We can't assume anything is easy to understand. The second you do someone could be confused and not like your product leading to bad word of mouth or they may miss whole aspects or features from your library that makes it unique and that you spent time on, again leaving them slightly disappointed. Whereas had you mad those elements obvious and encourage experimentation, your customer will have a better experience and be more likey to firstly purchase more from you but secondly become more invested themselves. It feels almost patronizing to type that out because its like Business 101, and I think that's why it frustraits me when I see it being dont by a team run by a marketing department. The _have_ to know this, which makes it feel like they just dont care.

So as a developer your attitude should never be 'they will figure it out, because I can' It should be 'How can I make sure all the cool stuff is obvious, even to those who dont even know, they dont know this feature exists as a thing' (not putting words in your mouth, just using this as an example of general attitude developers can have)

You should be making all the options and features as obvious and apparent as possible. This a tool not an art installation. I dont mind the minimalist graphics per-se.... it's more the wasted space, the hidden menus, the unlabelled options, the lack of common sampler features, that lack of information on special mappings that some patches have, or an indication on which patches use the reverse feature without me having to check a separate window for every patch.

Again I know people keep going back to 'Just read the manual', which is missing my point. We know, just by the question being publically asked so many times, that not everyone reads the manual, even when they are confused. They just don't, it may seem illogical to you who does, but we know, based on peoples on admission that they do not. So you shouldn't then continue to act and operate under the assumption they do, because to you not doing so is illogical. You can't think for other people in this manner (general statement not directed personally)

Your comment about not using HZ strings but when you do, because all the UI's are the same eventually you would figure out where the reverb was and upon coming back to HZ strings later you will now know where it is for that too.... this all assumes that customers keep investing after their first purchase. Like if someone buys this library and are underwhelmed with it, because either features that make it special were hidden off to the side or they didn't know were there, there is the possibility that they may not want to buy more, meaning they will never 'eventually find the reverb'. So would it not make more sense to make the user experience more seamless with features obvious to a *first time* user....increasing the possibility they will keep investing? Nothing about the Spitfire UI encourages me to explore and investigate. And when you have competing products that *do* make it easy to navigate and the sounds are comparable, minimalism seems a foolish soap box to stand on. Again these are tools, not art. I should never have to 'expore' or 'go on a curated adventure' to find the fucking reverb. 😂 

-DJ


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Aug 10, 2021)




----------



## Toecutter (Aug 10, 2021)

andyhy said:


> As a hobbyist I can spare the time to study the manual but if I was a working composer time is money.


Yea time is money but a professional should learn their tools no matter what, it doesn't kill to read the manual, composers shouldn't be different than say a doctor who spends their whole lives buried in books and studying. Hammers isn't exactly rocket science XD But I agree that the player needs improvements and I'm grateful to Charlie for taking SF out of their comfort zone and adding custom features to the player.


----------



## Grizzlymv (Aug 10, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


>



that's quite nice! What I find actually funny is that I do the complete opposite process so far with the lib. I never really liked to start from a loop and change it, I usually start creating a drum pattern with the solo instruments, and then enhance it with some subtle loops the slowly join in the backdrop and evolve. But the main beat remains the pattern created with the individual drums. I find that there's some more discrete loops in this lib that fits this purpose perfectly. But some are more difficult to use in such approach, hence the reason why I hope they would eventually support half/double speed for the loops so we can get a bit of more flexibility there. Finger's crossed in a future update, but that being said, it's by no mean a showstopper. I just love this lib and it quickly became my go to one for percs!


----------



## muziksculp (Aug 10, 2021)

I Never like using loops. Be it at the Beginning, middle or at the end of a production.


----------



## charlieclouser (Aug 10, 2021)

Working with programmed single hits while also manipulating loops - if done correctly and well, and working towards the pattern you want instead of being forced down some side street by the content of the loop - will always produce more convincing, realistic, and lifelike results than anything that can be achieved by working with single hit sample sets alone. After 40+ years of playing, programming, and recording drums, that's my view and I'm sticking to it.

It doesn't matter if it's taking two beats of a tambourine loop and tucking it behind a programmed part, snipping out just the snare drags from a hiphop loop and hiding them behind your single hits, or taking some awesome and epic cinematic drum performance and slicing and dicing and rearranging the whole darn thing until you bend it to your will... loops are your friend. Well, mine anyway. 

Sometimes it's not as simple as re-triggering chunks of loops and banging in some single hits over the top. In fact, I usually go much further than that, taking the audio of the loops into the timeline in Ableton and doing massive amounts of editing, layering, and mixing, or using ReCycle to cut the loop into slices (with its amazing FW <> BW tails) and then mapping those to a sampler... and those techniques are certainly possible with the content in Hammers. Make a dummy MIDI trigger track, bounce-in-place, and get down to work. But in terms of what's practical to package into a MIDI + Sample playback instrument, I feel we made the best choices as to how to present the content.

As good as single hit sample sets can get, no matter how many round-robins or dynamic layers you've got on tap, those samples will never overlap and interact the way real sounds do within a performance loop - whether or not this matters in context is up to the user to decide. But mixing the two programming techniques is the best path towards a realistic result. And that's why I was adamant that Hammers contain live performances edited into loops with end hits. With eight bars to work with in every performance, the chance of hearing "loopy-ness" is minimized. Beyond eight bars we might as well have just provided four-minute jam sessions as audio and let the user hack their way to a result - that's what I do when I record myself - but few customers will have the patience or skills for that.


----------



## José Herring (Aug 10, 2021)

Reason has a new sample player that can do the above. I'm beta testing it now and it's pretty damn cool tool to use as well. 

Looking forward to finding its capabilities.


----------



## muziksculp (Aug 10, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Working with programmed single hits while also manipulating loops - if done correctly and well, and working towards the pattern you want instead of being forced down some side street by the content of the loop - will always produce more convincing, realistic, and lifelike results than anything that can be achieved by working with single hit sample sets alone. After 40+ years of playing, programming, and recording drums, that's my view and I'm sticking to it.
> 
> It doesn't matter if it's taking two beats of a tambourine loop and tucking it behind a programmed part, snipping out just the snare drags from a hiphop loop and hiding them behind your single hits, or taking some awesome and epic cinematic drum performance and slicing and dicing and rearranging the whole darn thing until you bend it to your will... loops are your friend. Well, mine anyway.
> 
> ...


OK. Thanks for your helpful feedback. 

I will be flexible, and open-minded, and take your advice, and see if I can begin liking to use some loops in my rhythm tracks to get the momentum, or groove going forward, and act as a guide/backbone for the single hit samples. 

I think the issue for me is going to be choosing the suitable loop for my taste, or project. I'm guessing one can also use other loops from outside of this library to kick-start things.


----------



## charlieclouser (Aug 10, 2021)

José Herring said:


> Reason has a new sample player that can do the above. I'm beta testing it now and it's pretty damn cool tool to use as well.
> 
> Looking forward to finding its capabilities.


Yeah, I saw that. It looks to be the successor to Dr. Rex or Dr. Octo-Rex, but perhaps it also integrates the slicing functionality of ReCycle as well, meaning that we don't have to go to a standalone app to slice loops. Very intriguing....

As long as it does the one thing that *only* ReCycle does - by doing a bit of slick frontwards-backwards crossfade-loop trickery, ReCycle can add synthetically-created tails to slices that would otherwise sound chopped short - and this is absolute magic. There's a hundred loop-slicing apps, plugins, and instruments out there but I haven't found a single one that does what ReCycle does (although if anyone knows of one, let me know!). I sure hope that the new sampler in Reason can do it....


----------



## mscp (Aug 10, 2021)

José Herring said:


> A Charlie Clouser Albion series. Sawbion
> 
> edit: I'm being serious too. I'd be down for a library in the style of the Saw franchines. Dark, gritty, heavy brass, strings, low woodwinds and synths.


The "Out of The Clouser" series.

I want my commission if you use it! haha.


----------



## charlieclouser (Aug 10, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> OK. Thanks for your helpful feedback.
> 
> I will be flexible, and open-minded, and take your advice, and see if I can begin liking to use some loops in my rhythm tracks to get the momentum, or groove going forward, and act as a guide/backbone for the single hit samples.
> 
> I think the issue for me is going to be choosing the suitable loop for my taste, or project. I'm guessing one can also use other loops from outside of this library to kick-start things.


At the risk of sounding seditious / traitorous, check out Deep Percussion Beds by CineSamples. The sonics are immaculate, it's not "rock drums in a cinematic setting" like Hammers but rather more "normal" cinematic percussion sets, and the loops are very moldable. They have great feel and dynamics, and have a wide variety of time signatures and tempi, and come as complete construction kits that are broken down into stems. Although this is a different approach than I took with Hammers, and is more likely to push you toward a pre-ordained destination, those loops really respond well to editing and repurposing. 

However, Deep Percussion Beds is a Kontakt library, so if you really want to get into serious editing and repurposing, you'll have to export the WAV files, or bounce to disc, or do whatever you need to do in order to get the audio out of there.

But I used those loops a ton on some short-turnaround tv series and I was always able to push and shove them enough to get them to play MY patterns instead of what was provided. And they do sound delicious.

BTW: I much prefer Volume 1 over Volume 2, but your mileage may vary.


----------



## muziksculp (Aug 10, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> At the risk of sounding seditious / traitorous, check out Deep Percussion Beds by CineSamples. The sonics are immaculate, it's not "rock drums in a cinematic setting" like Hammers but rather more "normal" cinematic percussion sets, and the loops are very moldable. They have great feel and dynamics, and have a wide variety of time signatures and tempi, and come as complete construction kits that are broken down into stems. Although this is a different approach than I took with Hammers, and is more likely to push you toward a pre-ordained destination, those loops really respond well to editing and repurposing.
> 
> However, Deep Percussion Beds is a Kontakt library, so if you really want to get into serious editing and repurposing, you'll have to export the WAV files, or bounce to disc, or do whatever you need to do in order to get the audio out of there.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tip.  

I will check them out.


----------



## José Herring (Aug 10, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Yeah, I saw that. It looks to be the successor to Dr. Rex or Dr. Octo-Rex, but perhaps it also integrates the slicing functionality of ReCycle as well, meaning that we don't have to go to a standalone app to slice loops. Very intriguing....
> 
> As long as it does the one thing that *only* ReCycle does - by doing a bit of slick frontwards-backwards crossfade-loop trickery, ReCycle can add synthetically-created tails to slices that would otherwise sound chopped short - and this is absolute magic. There's a hundred loop-slicing apps, plugins, and instruments out there but I haven't found a single one that does what ReCycle does (although if anyone knows of one, let me know!). I sure hope that the new sampler in Reason can do it....


I'll test it out late tonight and let you know specifically if it can do that. 

I think since it's out to Reason+ subscribers I'm not violating any NDA by talking about it even though I'm testing the release of Reason 12 for Sept for the rest of us who don't want to tithe to the company formerly known as Propellarheads.


----------



## Mike Fox (Aug 10, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I Never like using loops. Be it at the Beginning, middle or at the end of a production.


Loops ain’t my thing either. I’ve tried, and tried, and tried, but it always feels off and weird to me.

But mad props to the blokes who can take loops and tweak, morph, mangle, and really make them their own, cuz my brain sure as hell doesn’t work that way.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Aug 10, 2021)

PercX is great too - loops but fully deconstructable. Great to pair with Hammers (same with LAMP grooves and Damage 2 loop designer). Loops are great once you figure out how to incorporate them.


----------



## muziksculp (Aug 10, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> PercX is great to


I came across this one a little while ago, I will check it again. 

Thanks for mentioning it.


----------



## muziksculp (Aug 10, 2021)

Actually, checking out some of the PercX videos reminded me of Stylus RMX. I wonder if Stylux RMX 2.0 will ever be released ? It was so popular a while ago, I would love to see them release a new, much more capable, modernized version of it. Also PercX is 50% Off.


----------



## Zanshin (Aug 10, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Actually, checking out some of the PercX videos reminded me of Stylus RMX. I wonder if Stylux RMX 2.0 will ever be released ? It was so popular a while ago, I would love to see them release a new, much more capable, modernized version of it. Also PercX is 50% Off.


It’s always 50% off.


----------



## muziksculp (Aug 10, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> It’s always 50% off.


Oh.. Didn't know that. (THANKS). 

Do you use PercX ?


----------



## Zanshin (Aug 10, 2021)

I own it. I never got farther than playing around with it. It has some really cool features though and I wish they had opened it up to import external loops like Rex files.


----------



## Daniel James (Aug 10, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> At the risk of sounding seditious / traitorous, check out Deep Percussion Beds by CineSamples. The sonics are immaculate, it's not "rock drums in a cinematic setting" like Hammers but rather more "normal" cinematic percussion sets, and the loops are very moldable. They have great feel and dynamics, and have a wide variety of time signatures and tempi, and come as complete construction kits that are broken down into stems. Although this is a different approach than I took with Hammers, and is more likely to push you toward a pre-ordained destination, those loops really respond well to editing and repurposing.
> 
> However, Deep Percussion Beds is a Kontakt library, so if you really want to get into serious editing and repurposing, you'll have to export the WAV files, or bounce to disc, or do whatever you need to do in order to get the audio out of there.
> 
> ...


Thanks man, not sure if you know that or not but that library was arranged by me and Alex Pfeffer alongside the Mikes back in the day. So for it to come up as an example of what _you_ consider quality is genuinely awesome and flattering 

I do feel like the ability to get inside the patch with the wrench icon in Kontakt is much more flexible than what one can do with the loops inside Spitfire Player. But while we are on that note, any chance we can get the hammer loops as .wav files? to save us having to do the bounce to disk to get it out of the SFP? 

Having access to the loop and warps as a folder of wavs means they will get 1000% more use out of me. I have so many tools for manipulating wav files in cool ways. But I don't want to spend the time rendering every sample out of the SFP.

-DJ


----------



## José Herring (Aug 11, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Yeah, I saw that. It looks to be the successor to Dr. Rex or Dr. Octo-Rex, but perhaps it also integrates the slicing functionality of ReCycle as well, meaning that we don't have to go to a standalone app to slice loops. Very intriguing....



As far as I can tell so far it doesn't come close to ReCycle in terms of being able to manipulate individual slices. In that regard so far Mimic is turning out to be a disappointment. It really isn't a capable loop player even on par with Dr. Rex. For me, I haven't figured out a way to even select individual slices in Mimic. In order to get control and edit slices individually you have to load up an already sliced loop and put each slice in its own slot in what's called a "mutli slot". Then you can have control over the pitch, reverse, ect of that slice. Problem is they only give you 8 slots so they run out in a hurry. That's 8 slices of a rex file. that just isn't enough. 

It's interesting but it's not quite what I expected. Cool thing is that you can use all modes simultaneously so you can have a loop playing along with a sample instrument and can come up with some cool little playable pitched beats, ect.. But as far as manipulating and chopping up actual drum patterns it is severely limited in that capacity. Far less capable of manipulating an individual slice than Dr. Octo-Rex or even the older version Dr. Rex. The only thing it can do as far as I can see is immediately detect hit points then map them out across your keyboard so you can play them like a Rex file via midi. You can have control over the sequence of playback that way. 

I'm not saying it's bad or anything. I came up with some pretty cool pads right a way and the ability to actually play a loop like a rex file just by dragging and dropping it in is cool. You can chop up some synth rhythms and play them on the fly while changing pitch pretty easy. 

I still have a lot to learn about it but after spending 30 minutes trying to find a way to select an individual slice for processing and then being limited to 8 slots on the multi slot is just too limiting for much use as a loop player/mangler. 

Looking into Live and Recycle next. I at one point had ReCycle so I'm going to look to see if I still have a license. I'd rather use Live though as it's so ingrained in me to have everything on a timeline when I compose it's hard for me to use a standalone program to beat slice.

I have more to learn on it and I hope I'm wrong but I wouldn't be tossing ReCycle just yet. Though in the future I hope Mimic turns to incorporate more than it has so far.


----------



## Kony (Aug 11, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> And that's why I was adamant


I knew I'd seen you somewhere before!


----------



## charlieclouser (Aug 11, 2021)

José Herring said:


> Looking into Live and Recycle next. I at one point had ReCycle so I'm going to look to see if I still have a license. I'd rather use Live though as it's so ingrained in me to have everything on a timeline when I compose it's hard for me to use a standalone program to beat slice.
> 
> I have more to learn on it and I hope I'm wrong but I wouldn't be tossing ReCycle just yet. Though in the future I hope Mimic turns to incorporate more than it has so far.


Well, now that you've reported in regarding Mimic, I'm sad. Not nearly as sad as I am now that ReWire has been deprecated though... without the ability to ReWire Ableton behind Logic I think I may just retire.

ReCyle is probably on the chopping block too... it hasn't been updated forever, and I still have trouble getting it to perform reliably even on an old MacOS Mojave system. To be honest I haven't used it seriously since my record-making days, where I'd get down into the weeds taking a handful of hiphop loops, disassembling them, and getting them all to play *exactly* the pattern that the live drums were playing. Once every single hi-hat and snare drag are exactly lined up behind the live drums, everything falls into place, the clouds part, and a heavenly choir begins to sing. Well, more like Rob Zombie begins to sing, but you get the idea.

The time-stretch algorithms in Ableton are so good that I haven't needed to go into ReCycle forever - but it is still amazing to use ReCycle when extracting single hits from loops of *cough* questionable legality *cough* Led Zeppelin drum outtakes *cough*. The ReCycle workflow is pretty archaic by today's standards - manually loading, slicing, and exporting individual files - but the underlying technology is so simple and works so well that I'm really surprised that it hasn't appeared in other more modern tools.

One of the stretching algorithms in Ableton is very similar to what ReCycle does - it can fill in the gaps created when rearranging a drum part without doing a granular stretch, but it isn't exactly the same, and it doesn't do anything related to exporting slices with synthetic FW <> BW tails.

.... sgh....


----------



## charlieclouser (Aug 11, 2021)

Daniel James said:


> any chance we can get the hammer loops as .wav files? to save us having to do the bounce to disk to get it out of the SFP?


Yeah, I seriously doubt that Spitfire will unlock the loop and warp content in Hammers as WAV files due to piracy concerns. I actually mentioned this at the beginning of the project but it went nowhere.

But for a sufficiently dedicated (obsessed?) user it's a trivial matter to create a dummy MIDI track that triggers all the loops, do an offline bounce at the loop's original tempo, and then use Logic's repeat-cut, batch-rename, and "export regions as audio files" features to extract the loops as audio. I do that all the time with various locked Kontakt libraries since I never use loops inside a keyboard-triggered sample playback engine. I even have a "sample extraction" Logic template set up for that purpose just so I don't have to manually build one each time.


----------



## José Herring (Aug 11, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Well, now that you've reported in regarding Mimic, I'm sad. Not nearly as sad as I am now that ReWire has been deprecated though... without the ability to ReWire Ableton behind Logic I think I may just retire.



Yes I'm a bit disappointing in Reason Studios for this release. It seems half baked, or maybe they were half baked trying to figure out how to do a Grain, Dr. Rex, Kong mashup and only seeming to get about 1/10th of the capabilities of each in there.

As far as the degradation of ReWire, it is a bummer. I mean at least Reason offered up the Rack Plugin as a sort of replacement which I was fine with because I honestly only used the Rack anyway, but for Live. Urgggg...It would be integral to my workflow and it was when I used Live back in the Live 8 days. Still love the program and it's time to see if I still qualify for some sort of upgrade after 10 years.


----------



## charlieclouser (Aug 11, 2021)

José Herring said:


> but for Live. Urgggg...It would be integral to my workflow and it was when I used Live back in the Live 8 days. Still love the program and it's time to see if I still qualify for some sort of upgrade after 10 years.


I've been on Live since v1, and having it ReWired behind Logic is absolutely a critical part of my workflow. ReWire does things that no other solution can provide:

• Tempo changes in Logic happen sample-accurately in the ReWire slave, without manually building a tempo map in the slave. Gradual or instant, they're perfect. And all of the loops, edits, and automation present in the slave tracks perfectly. This lets you do really cool stuff like have a gradual speed-up in Logic, with loops in Live set to "transpose mode", and as the cue speeds up the loops in Live will speed up AND pitch up. I've used this a lot to have a few elements of the drum parts get higher in pitch as some frantic beat-down cue gets faster and faster towards the end. It's just so great. We simulated that ability in Hammers; the Retro Pitch stretch mode operates like this, so that's some consolation.... but....

• If you have an MCU control surface configured in Logic, it still controls Logic when Live is in the foreground, so you still have dedicated transport controls even when Logic is in the background. Most importantly, when you configure the FF + RW buttons on the MCU to jump to next + previous marker, and turn Cycle on, you can switch over to Live and use those buttons to jump around to your various markers, and the Cycle Range is highlighted in Live's time ruler. This means you don't even need to build out a marker track in Live. You can just flip through your Logic markers and build your arrangement in Live purely by visual inspection of the hightlighted ranges in Live's time ruler. So good.

• Of course you can siphon the audio from Live back into Logic on as many channels as you need, without any SoundFlower or LoopBack or clumsy external audio routings. Levels are exact and timing is perfect. Most importantly, when it's time to bring the elements you've built in Live back into Logic, you can do an offline bounce in Logic and that bounce happens with all the complex tempo changes in place - and it's FAST. I just use Logic's region solo to "solo nothing" so that all audio pathways are open but no regions in Logic will play, set a Cycle range, do the bounce, and drop the resulting audio file into Logic's timeline at the beginning of the Cycle range. It's fantastic.

The only drag is that meter changes do NOT transfer across from the ReWire master to the slave.... or maybe they do but Live is permanently stuck in 4/4. It seems that ReWire works on a basis of beats, which usually equate to quarter notes in Logic, so if you have a bunch of 5/8 bars or whatever in Logic, the bar lines in Live don't match up. But it doesn't really matter because the BEAT lines DO match. So I can live with that.

But I don't know what I'll do in a post-ReWire world. Really sucks.


----------



## borisb2 (Aug 11, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> BTW: I much prefer Volume 1 over Volume 2, but your mileage may vary.


Got only vol2 back in the days.. what was different in vol1?


----------



## José Herring (Aug 11, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> I've been on Live since v1, and having it ReWired behind Logic is absolutely a critical part of my workflow. ReWire does things that no other solution can provide:
> 
> • Tempo changes in Logic happen sample-accurately in the ReWire slave, without manually building a tempo map in the slave. Gradual or instant, they're perfect. And all of the loops, edits, and automation present in the slave tracks perfectly. This lets you do really cool stuff like have a gradual speed-up in Logic, with loops in Live set to "transpose mode", and as the cue speeds up the loops in Live will speed up AND pitch up. I've used this a lot to have a few elements of the drum parts get higher in pitch as some frantic beat-down cue gets faster and faster towards the end. It's just so great. We simulated that ability in Hammers; the Retro Pitch stretch mode operates like this, so that's some consolation.... but....
> 
> ...



I hear you. 

Reason in Rewire mode for the most part had solved that changing meter and odd time signature problem and while back and it was working fairly well. Not perfect but at least it would track and change the bars on the fly as long as one didn't get too crazy and start writing in 9/16 or something. 

I honestly originally thought you meant that ReWire had no future but that Ableton was still using it. In researching my upgrade options I realized that they dropped ReWire out completely. Whoa! How the hell are we suppose to use it now?!!

I know when I was working with Clay Duncan way back he used ReWire at first but then ended up putting Live on a separate computer and using midi machine control to control it but MMC was clunky compared to ReWire. It didn't have any tempo capabilities if I recall so they'd all have to be set manually and forget about bar changes and all Audio needed to be rendered in Realtime. Which Clay didn't mind because he would always do that anyway. I minded because I really don't have the patience. 

I'm looking over the various options to replace ReWire, it's looking bleak to say the least.

I do qualify for an upgrade to Live 11 at a decent discount and I might just get Live 11 Standard for now, but honestly I'm not sure how I could use it as I don't readily have spare computers to run it on. MAJOR BUMMER!


----------



## Daniel James (Aug 11, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Yeah, I seriously doubt that Spitfire will unlock the loop and warp content in Hammers as WAV files due to piracy concerns. I actually mentioned this at the beginning of the project but it went nowhere.
> 
> But for a sufficiently dedicated (obsessed?) user it's a trivial matter to create a dummy MIDI track that triggers all the loops, do an offline bounce at the loop's original tempo, and then use Logic's repeat-cut, batch-rename, and "export regions as audio files" features to extract the loops as audio. I do that all the time with various locked Kontakt libraries since I never use loops inside a keyboard-triggered sample playback engine. I even have a "sample extraction" Logic template set up for that purpose just so I don't have to manually build one each time.


You see, I don't have that kind of dedication to _these _specific loops. It just means I will more likely use alternatives, with my deflated impression of the library remaining where it is. I mean with things like loopcloud where everything is auto-tagged even my own samples, the idea of having to manually go through loops I don't even know if I care for yet just doesn't seem appealing.

The loops could be incredible in one of the many cool tools for manipulating loops that exist, that blow SFP out of the water. It would make the content considerably more useable.

And the piracy angle, sure I understand, but when you have so many royalty free loops in the world now through splice, Loopcloud, Noiiz, one of the dozens of other websites. All of the other sample libraries that provide open wav formats. I honestly don't see there being a huge piracy rush for warp 7 on a tom loop. The individual hits, sure keep them protected, but the loops....I think you may be overvaluing them in today's market to use piracy as the main reason to not provide wavs. I mean you yourself know that would be beneficial, why else show us the long way round to doing it right?

Just another one of those things.


----------



## muziksculp (Aug 11, 2021)

@Daniel James ,

I enjoyed your video avin a look at Action Strings 2, do you think NI will release an Action Strikes 2 in the near future, with some cool new features, inlcuding drag-n-drop of midi to DAW ? what's your guess about this ?


----------



## charlieclouser (Aug 11, 2021)

Daniel James said:


> You see, I don't have that kind of dedication to _these _specific loops.


Good. Then don't use them.


----------



## charlieclouser (Aug 11, 2021)

borisb2 said:


> Got only vol2 back in the days.. what was different in vol1?


It was a little more open and natural sound, and the patterns were a little more easy and open, and easier to edit into other performances.


----------



## charlieclouser (Aug 11, 2021)

José Herring said:


> I'm looking over the various options to replace ReWire, it's looking bleak to say the least.


I wish Logic would add support for Ableton Link or whatever it's called. That seems to be their solution to replace ReWire, but I don't know if it has any audio capabilities or if it's just a sync solution. I guess I'll find out sooner or later.


----------



## Daniel James (Aug 11, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Good. Then don't use them.


There's that good ol Spitfire attitude. But in all seriousness, I won't, and I know you don't give a fuck about that. But I also know you know it would be better for composers, I have seen you mention the utility of loops as wavs previously I believe.

And even with your name on the box, your desire to have them as wav's from the start and your understanding of the utility of open wavs. Still not happening, because someone else said so?

I respect you a lot Charlie so it really sucks to see you flippantly respond to that bit with the whole 'good [go fuck yourself then]' attitude. If you know where I am coming from, why hit me with the 'well if you don't like it don't use it' that kind of argument feels so way below you. What I suggested wouldn't be an impossible or difficult change and would make the library instantly more useable for many people, again something I can almost guarantee you know. And when I am suggesting possible changes its not coming from a selfish place, I don't particularly _need_ Hammers personally in my work, but I speak more generally for the people who do work and think in similar ways to me when it comes to music production. Again something I am sure you know by now. I am offering the suggestions with the understanding that such a small change to the file structure could potentially make the library more usable for more people, leaving less disappointed and more satisfied customers. I am not being the portrayer of objective truth, I am just saying how I see it from where I am standing. So to say to me 'Good, Dont use them' is to miss the point of my suggestion. Cause I don't give a fuck, I just offering you ways to make it easier to reach the target audience that works like me. Of which there are a few. Its literally the purpose of messageboards like this, to share these kinds of suggestions....unless of course we were hoping for a positive comments only? You don't have to listen to me of course, and judging by the tone you wont...even out of spite perhaps... But to disregard it completely with such flippancy it just disappointing I guess.

But sure, if we are getting to that catty part of the thread, I will leave you to it. I guess I came in with higher hopes for composer focused features and changes with your name attached. But I guess, as you suggested by them not letting you do it your way with the .wavs its just another 'Spitfire library'

-DJ


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Aug 11, 2021)

Spitifre really cranking out the great content for this library!


----------



## David Baran (Aug 11, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Yup. Started playing drums almost exactly 50 years ago. Third grade. Eight years of age. Do the math. I'm old.
> 
> Got my first Ludwig Vista-Lite kit in 1974 at age 11. Dang I'm old.


Holy shit! I read stuff like this and I am just instantly humbled and amazed by the sheer amount of talent, mastery, and experience that guys (legends) like you have after all that time.

50 years...That is just so much experience! 

The amount of applicable knowledge, and wisdom that you have in your head tempered by life experience and murphy's law, has to be tremendous. I am just fascinated by people who started at such a young age and invested so much time into their careers. 

Thank you for putting out this library along with Spitfire and for giving us some of that experience and knowledge that you have accumulated over the decades.


----------



## charlieclouser (Aug 11, 2021)

Daniel James said:


> But sure, if we are getting to that catty part of the thread, I will leave you to it. I guess I came in with higher hopes for composer focused features and changes with your name attached. But I guess, as you suggested by them not letting you do it your way with the .wavs its just another 'Spitfire library'


Oh for fuck's sake.

- Can we have the WAVs?
- No. But you could do X.
- Well, I don't like it enough to do X.
- Then don't.

And there it is. "No" is a complete sentence. Has Spitfire ever given the WAVs? No. Did OT give the WAVs for JXL Perc? No. Did I complain? No. Did I bounce them and turn them into EXS maps? In minutes. 

It's only a sample library. Buy it or don't, use it or don't, it's not a big deal.


----------



## borisb2 (Aug 11, 2021)

David Baran said:


> ... that experience and knowledge that you have accumulated over the *decades*.


uhh ..  ... all good. I'm sure Charlie can handle it

I - started playing drums almost exactly 50 years ago as well .. didnt last long, big mistake, switched to keys ever since


----------



## charlieclouser (Aug 11, 2021)

borisb2 said:


> I - started playing drums almost exactly 50 years ago as well .. didnt last long, big mistake, switched to keys


Hahaha I switched from drums to drum machines! But I was never that great a drummer anyway, and the amount of hardware, heads, sticks, miscellany... it drove me up the wall. Somehow I could never escape it though, and I still have way too many stands, cages, clamps, felts, mufflers, moon gels.... it's worse than guitars! At least guitars take up less space. And you can hang them on the wall and they'll look cool. But drums? Just a hassle no matter how you slice it. Ask my wife what we use the "junk bedroom" for. Or the storage room. Or the machine room. Or the shower in my studio. Or those three giant road case trunks in the garage. Or...

... wait, on second thought, better not ask her.


----------



## charlieclouser (Aug 11, 2021)

David Baran said:


> Holy shit! I read stuff like this and I am just instantly humbled and amazed by the sheer amount of talent, mastery, and experience that guys (legends) like you have after all that time.
> 
> 50 years...That is just so much experience!


Well, I've been lucky enough to learn some things the hard way (by trial and error) and some things the easy way (by working with true experts). It's one thing to sit by yourself endlessly trying to figure out how to prevent a drum stand from rattling, it's another to be on tour with an A-list crew and watch the old hands use the tricks they learned on tour with U2 or whatever. There's a world of difference between loading in my kit from a crappy car double-parked in front of CBGB and watching the NIN crew bolt down every piece of my kit permanently to a riser for quick setup - I can't even remember all of the steps in between those two extremes!

But if one stays in the game long enough, it's impossible not to brush up against the keepers of the ancient wisdom sooner or later, so I soak it up when I can.


----------



## Daniel James (Aug 11, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Oh for fuck's sake.
> 
> - Can we have the WAVs?
> - No. But you could do X.
> ...


Ok.

- Can we have the wavs.
- No, I wanted that too but Spitfire wont let me
- Could we put this specific rationale to Spitfire in the hope they will release wavs?
- Just do it yourself?
- That doesn't change the issue of it being unuseable for everyone else and those who don't know how. And defeats the point of why I am asking.
- Good, Don't use it then.....wat
- *produces oversimplified condescending list*

JXL Perc didn't have loops did it? so you rendered out all the individual hits? good for you but not what we are talking about here, I am being specific to the loop content. Again just because _*YOU*_ know the process to render out all of the loop wavs doesn't mean new composers will, or know that they even could, Without that being obvious on the UI. Direct competition like DAMAGE doesn't require one to render out loops as often because they tag their loops pretty well, to the point if I am in need of a type of sound, its straightforward to find where its going to be. Again I could if I wanted just render them myself but again not the point I was making.

Just so we are clear I am only pointing to something that could be suggested to make the content more useable on a general level, this has fuck all to do with me liking it or not on the personal level.

You yourself said you suggested the idea, meaning my logic can't off here. So why are we getting aggressive over this all of a sudden.

-DJ


----------



## dunamisstudio (Aug 11, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> But for a sufficiently dedicated (obsessed?) user it's a trivial matter to create a dummy MIDI track that triggers all the loops, do an offline bounce at the loop's original tempo, and then use Logic's repeat-cut, batch-rename, and "export regions as audio files" features to extract the loops as audio. I do that all the time with various locked Kontakt libraries since I never use loops inside a keyboard-triggered sample playback engine. I even have a "sample extraction" Logic template set up for that purpose just so I don't have to manually build one each time.


Does Cubase have the same feature that Logic does?


----------



## borisb2 (Aug 11, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> But if one stays in the game long enough, it's impossible not to brush up against the keepers of the ancient wisdom sooner or later, so I soak it up when I can.


sorry, wayy off topic .. but did I really see an Emax II in your studio-rack? .. nice


----------



## charlieclouser (Aug 11, 2021)

dunamisstudio said:


> Does Cubase have the same feature that Logic does?


That I do not know.


----------



## charlieclouser (Aug 11, 2021)

borisb2 said:


> sorry, wayy off topic .. but did I really see an Emax II in your studio-rack? .. nice


Emax I with USB floppy replacement! The II had more memory and “better” sound quality, but digital filters and not as crunchy. Although I did have a bunch of Emax II’s from the NIN era because we used them for all onstage keyboard sounds, they’re all gone now.


----------



## JohnG (Aug 11, 2021)

just used Hammers on a track for a Netflix movie I'm on. Excellent-sounding library and extremely consistent to play -- no jumps, no delays from one round robin to another, no sudden dropouts for no reason (ahem competitor drum libraries) and super easy to dial in the sound.

Nice work, Charlie.


----------



## borisb2 (Aug 11, 2021)

was stuck on Akai's .. oh man, wasn't the plan, feels like going back in time now .. needless to say I used all Bob Clearmountain CDs as well .. and the Prosonus Strings 

For this chat alone I think I have to buy Hammers today .. thanks for bringing back good memories!

/end off-topic now


----------



## charlieclouser (Aug 11, 2021)

JohnG said:


> just used Hammers on a track for a Netflix movie I'm on. Excellent-sounding library and extremely consistent to play -- no jumps, no delays from one round robin to another, no sudden dropouts for no reason (ahem competitor drum libraries) and super easy to dial in the sound.
> 
> Nice work, Charlie.


Thank you sir, glad you found a use for it! I definitely beat up on the Spitfire team about start point edits and velocity-split smoothness, but they did a great job.


----------



## charlieclouser (Aug 11, 2021)

borisb2 said:


> and the Prosonus Strings


Believe it or not, I still use a set of samples from that ProSonus strings library that came on audio CD - the section marcato has a great "chomp" to it, and even though it's only one dynamic layer with no round-robins, the tone is awesome, especially when you stretch the map so the lowest samples get pitched down. It's been in my template for decades and I still use it on everything, almost like a reverb return, basically as a way to add weight behind more sophisticated short strings.

Plus after all the hassle of manually sampling from audio CD into the S-1000, and then hand-truncating and mapping everything, I still feel like I haven't gotten enough payback from those samples!

(Just kidding, they've paid their debt to me many times over...)


----------



## NYC Composer (Aug 12, 2021)

I sampled the Presonus tuba from their audio CD...still sounds ok to me. I think those were recorded at McGill University in Toronto?


----------



## holywilly (Aug 12, 2021)

I really love Hammers, it’s my most frequently used Spitfire library, the warps and loops are my go to for building foundation. I’ve been enjoying Hammers and heavily used in my movies and TV projects.


----------



## charlieclouser (Aug 12, 2021)

holywilly said:


> I really love Hammers, it’s my most frequently used Spitfire library, the warps and loops are my go to for building foundation. I’ve been enjoying Hammers and heavily used in my movies and TV projects.


...


----------



## THW (Aug 12, 2021)

Currently downloading! Real excited, reading through this thread and the “creating a propulsive track” video sealed the deal for me. Thank you @charlieclouser and @Spitfire Team ! I never thought to use the note repeat function like as Charlie does in the video. Beyond an incredible compositional tool, I think I’ll learn a ton using the library.


----------



## charlieclouser (Aug 12, 2021)

THW said:


> Currently downloading! Real excited, reading through this thread and the “creating a propulsive track” video sealed the deal for me. Thank you @charlieclouser and @Spitfire Team ! I never thought to use the note repeat function like as Charlie does in the video. Beyond an incredible compositional tool, I think I’ll learn a ton using the library.


...


----------



## Toecutter (Aug 13, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> I actually mentioned this at the beginning of the project but it went nowhere.


Thanks for being so open about the stuff that goes behind the curtains. On that note, I'm curious if there were other features that you tried to include and weren't possible or rejected? Maybe as an update or Hammers 2?

I really like the unique stuff you added to the SF player but the thing I miss the most is using it as a mutli timbral instrument like Kontakt. Especially for percussion, I'd much rather load a few instances with all my drums in different midi ch instead of dozens of instances with individual drums. Don't you miss it too? Maybe something you could persuade SF to implement? XD


----------



## sopwith (Aug 13, 2021)

Purchased, holy smokes this thing is comprehensive. The processed warp variation FX chains are all incredibly unique, and there's literally a dozen of them. Great recordings across the board, makes JXL Percussion look like a "Discover' freebie.

Took me a minute to figure out how the keyboard mappings work and why the samples are layed out that way, but it's very easy to play now that I've got it. Reading the manual definitely helped.


----------



## charlieclouser (Aug 13, 2021)

sopwith said:


> Purchased, holy smokes this thing is comprehensive. The processed warp variation sounds are all incredibly unique, and there's literally a dozen of them. Great recordings across the board, makes JXL Percussion look like a "Discover' freebie.
> 
> Took me a minute to figure out how the keyboard mappings work and why the samples are layed out that way, but it's very easy to play now that I've got it. Reading the manual definitely helped.


As much as I cringe at watching the three videos we made, two of them - the one with me and Christian, and the one where I build a percussion track from scratch - have some good explanations of the theory behind my mapping scheme and how to work very quickly within it. Glad you're liking Hammers!


----------



## charlieclouser (Aug 13, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> Thanks for being so open about the stuff that goes behind the curtains. On that note, I'm curious if there were other features that you tried to include and weren't possible or rejected? Maybe as an update or Hammers 2?
> 
> I really like the unique stuff you added to the SF player but the thing I miss the most is using it as a mutli timbral instrument like Kontakt. Especially for percussion, I'd much rather load a few instances with all my drums in different midi ch instead of dozens of instances with individual drums. Don't you miss it too? Maybe something you could persuade SF to implement? XD


Ya know, I think we got pretty much everything on my hit list included in Hammers. The Spitfire player dev team really stepped up and implemented the reverse functionality even better than I thought would be possible. Tempo-synced reverse hits at the bottom of the loop maps?!?! Adjustable-prelap tempo-synced reversed single hits??!? It's all good.

As to multi-timbral use, I literally have never used that feature in Kontakt a single time, so it's no surprise I never thought it important to add to the SF player. Plus I think I had already realized that wasn't available in earlier player releases, so I didn't even suggest it. I usually want a separate full channel strip for every sound, and besides, Logic makes working with multi-timbral instances and multiple outputs a real pain, so I never use it.

The only time I ever load more than one NKI into Kontakt is when I'm doing rock drums, and this is another bit of mapping tomfoolery that I developed almost 30 years ago, back in the Akai era, which is still a cool technique today. Here's how it works:

I have a standardized mapping for rock drum kits. It's similar to a general MIDI drum map, but expanded here and there. For instance, I use a span of an octave for hi-hats, ranging from tight to open as you move up the keyboard, two adjacent keys for kick (main hit and softer hit, or left and right for double-kicks), six keys for snare, two adjacent keys for each of six toms, so that uses up a whole octave, etc. But it's always the same and has been since the Akai S-1000.

The thing about the S-1000 architecture which was unique in its day - and translates directly into Kontakt - is that you could have multiple "programs" (aka multi-sample maps) that were all on the same MIDI channel. If those programs had samples mapped to the same key, when you play that key they'll all trigger, for a "stacked" or layered sound. So what I'd do is create a separate program for every set of kick samples, every set of snares, etc. - but each map uses the same MIDI notes as all other drums of that type - kicks on B0 and C1, snares on C#1 through F#1, etc.

Then, on the S-1000 you could load them all up and create a whole kit that plays as though it's a single map, but is actually separate programs for each "drum". But each program can have its own output assignment, level, etc. If you want a program NOT to play, you could leave it loaded but just change its MIDI channel to an unused one. This was pretty unique, since most other samplers had a "one MIDI channel = one program" architecture.

But most importantly, if you wanted to stack two sets of kick drum samples, just load the two programs and set them to the same MIDI channel. You could even send them out of separate outputs if you wanted to process them individually. And you don't have to stop at two - I'd usually use at least four stacked elements for each drum, so a typical kick drum in my Akai era consisted of a main "point" map with a nice click attack, a "tone" map that sounded more round, a "boof" map that was usually an illegal Led Zep kick like The Ocean or Kashmir, and "electro" map that was a 909 or synthesized kick. And each of those maps could be a whole set of samples with velocity ranges etc., so you could have a single-sample map like a 909 or Zep stacked with multiple-velocity-layer maps like my own samples. Multiply that concept across all the drums and I'd wind up with a drum kit made up of dozens of separate maps, but all on the same MIDI channel, all playing "stacked", and all performable in real time from the keyboard, e-drum kits, multi-pads, or - most importantly - incoming MIDI from a d-drum brain that was being triggered by audio tracks on tape. That's the setup I used for sample augmentation or drum replacement on live drums for years.

... and this technique transfers perfectly over to Kontakt. Just make individual NKIs for each set of samples, map them all the identically for each drum category, and load as many as you want into a single Kontakt instance and set them all to port 1 + MIDI channel 1. My rock drums library for Kontakt has a few hundred NKIs in each of the kick / snare / toms / hats / rides / crashes folder, and I can load as many as I want and just jam 'em all on port 1 + channel 1. Using this technique you can make monstrously huge drums in a single Kontakt instance - but it's not multi-timbral per se, because it's still only using a single incoming MIDI channel - so there's no pain and suffering on the Logic side. Since you only have a single MIDI track that triggers all of the stacked kick maps, you don't have to make MIDI edits more than once. Having six identical MIDI tracks, each triggering a different layer of your stacked sound, makes editing of the MIDI a huge pain.

So if I need more tone from the kick I can load up an 808 or 909 and since they're all mapped the same way they will stack up without requiring additional MIDI channels or DAW tracks. I can re-pitch, mute, solo, mix, route to separate outs - all inside Kontakt, without requiring any funny business on the MIDI side. It's so good.

And if for some reason I DO want to have different MIDI for the point kick and the 909 kick, simple - just change the MIDI channel for one of the maps.

But this technique works best with rock drums, where the number and type of individual drums is pretty consistent - kick, snare, toms, hats, etc. With cinematic drums there's more wild cards so it's not a 1-to-1 analogy, and it's less likely that you'll want to stack four different taiko maps and have them all triggering from a single MIDI performance. But you can still do it if you want, and with the consistent mapping in Hammers it's quite simple - although since the SF player doesn't have the "rack" analogy of Kontakt, it's a little more complex to implement. I show a bit of this in the "creating a propulsive track" video where I take a manicured MIDI performance from the Surdos single hits and copy it to the toms single hits and just let 'er rip without any further editing. Good mapping hygiene has its benefits.

That rock drums technique I developed on the Akai was so useful to me for so many years that I'm still a fiend for consistent, precise, repeatable mapping, no matter what the sample sets consist of.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Aug 13, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> As much as I cringe at watching the three videos we made, two of them - the one with me and Christian, and the one where I build a percussion track from scratch - have some good explanations of the theory behind my mapping scheme and how to work very quickly within it. Glad you're liking Hammers!


All of the videos around Hammers have been stellar!


----------



## holywilly (Aug 14, 2021)

Are we expecting the second or third installment of Hammers? With different drums.


----------



## sopwith (Aug 14, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> As much as I cringe at watching the three videos we made, two of them - the one with me and Christian, and the one where I build a percussion track from scratch - have some good explanations of the theory behind my mapping scheme and how to work very quickly within it. Glad you're liking Hammers!


Yep watching you play in the parts was what made it all click, along with turning off two handed layout and then reading the info panel descriptions as I moved through each block. Makes total sense now, loads of fun to play on Push in chromatic mode. Phenomenal library and I'm just scratching the surface.


----------



## sopwith (Aug 14, 2021)

Also, I now desperately want the Warps effects chains as a separate plugin which I can run anything through.


----------



## Toecutter (Aug 14, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Ya know, I think we got pretty much everything on my hit list included in Hammers. The Spitfire player dev team really stepped up and implemented the reverse functionality even better than I thought would be possible. Tempo-synced reverse hits at the bottom of the loop maps?!?! Adjustable-prelap tempo-synced reversed single hits??!? It's all good.
> 
> As to multi-timbral use, I literally have never used that feature in Kontakt a single time, so it's no surprise I never thought it important to add to the SF player. Plus I think I had already realized that wasn't available in earlier player releases, so I didn't even suggest it. I usually want a separate full channel strip for every sound, and besides, Logic makes working with multi-timbral instances and multiple outputs a real pain, so I never use it.
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot Charlie, tons of things to put into perspective, I honestly don't know how you manage it... do you ever sleep? How's a normal Charlie day between AAA work, family and geeking out here? Love your open book persona, no holding out on us, so humbling... I shall start calling you the Professor now XD

I finished setting up a Hammers template that I can recall in seconds in Cubase, inspired by your SF video creating a track on the spot. It totally changed the way I think virtual percussion, thanks for the suggestion. Serious lightbulb moment! The way you run your show is so efficient, like in the pocket, with a purpose. "No additional plugins, no additional funny business" absolutely loved that! I need to get an Akai, that pad pressure thing looked really useful for a scrub like me.

You should be a regular on the SF channel or start your own youtube thing... you are a natural, truly a Professor, I don't watch vlogs often but I'd watch yours religiously


----------



## Evans (Aug 14, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> How's a normal Charlie day between AAA work, family and geeking out here?


He probably only posts here while on the toilet, like me. That's why I'm here so often.


----------



## charlieclouser (Aug 14, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> Thanks a lot Charlie, tons of things to put into perspective, I honestly don't know how you manage it... do you ever sleep? How's a normal Charlie day between AAA work, family and geeking out here? Love your open book persona, no holding out on us, so humbling... I shall start calling you the Professor now XD


My real secret is that I work as little as possible. That leaves more time for posting on vi-control!

The Akai MPD-218 is pretty great, much better than earlier iterations that had much harder, stiffer-feeling pads.

Of course you do have to send MIDI Beat Clock from the DAW to the Akai over USB, and the weird part is that you have to send that clock *early* by almost 250ms - at least that's the case in Logic on my rig. Fortunately, Logic now has the ability to slide outgoing clock individually per port, so it's easy. But it's a weird phenomenon that we never had to deal with in the pre-USB, all-hardware era.


----------



## Toecutter (Aug 14, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> The Akai MPD-218 is pretty great, much better than earlier iterations that had much harder, stiffer-feeling pads.
> 
> Of course you do have to send MIDI Beat Clock from the DAW to the Akai over USB, and the weird part is that you have to send that clock *early* by almost 250ms - at least that's the case in Logic on my rig. Fortunately, Logic now has the ability to slide outgoing clock individually per port, so it's easy. But it's a weird phenomenon that we never had to deal with in the pre-USB, all-hardware era.


Thanks for the heads up, just ordered one (sweet price btw) to free some desk space. I have a Yamaha DTXM12 mounted in a weird position so I don't use it very often... the Akai will see a lot more action.


----------



## Smikes77 (Aug 14, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> My real secret is that I work as little as possible. That leaves more time for posting on vi-control!
> 
> The Akai MPD-218 is pretty great, much better than earlier iterations that had much harder, stiffer-feeling pads.
> 
> Of course you do have to send MIDI Beat Clock from the DAW to the Akai over USB, and the weird part is that you have to send that clock *early* by almost 250ms - at least that's the case in Logic on my rig. Fortunately, Logic now has the ability to slide outgoing clock individually per port, so it's easy. But it's a weird phenomenon that we never had to deal with in the pre-USB, all-hardware era.


I was looking at one of these for myself, what`s it like? Do you have to really punch the pads? Is is easy to get a good range of dynamics?


----------



## charlieclouser (Aug 14, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> My real secret is that I work as little as possible. That leaves more time for posting on vi-control!





Smikes77 said:


> I was looking at one of these for myself, what`s it like? Do you have to really punch the pads? Is is easy to get a good range of dynamics?


The MPD-218 is about as good as an Akai pad controller can get. The pads are the "thick fat" pads and it seems to play better than any previous MPD or any version of Maschine that I've had. The pressure sensitivity works well, but it is not an MPE controller like the pads on a Hyrdrasynth desktop synth, Linnstrument, etc.

The MPD-218 has six knobs that can send MIDI CC's, but be aware that the MIDI i/o is USB only. Akai make a bigger version called the MPD-226 which has four faders as well as the knobs, and a display so you can edit settings right on the front panel, and that one has 5-pin DIN MIDI jacks. There's an even cooler one called the MPD-232, which has a step sequencer and even more faders, but for some reason that one is available in Europe only.

I've had MPC devices since the first MPC-60 and this generation of MPD controllers are pretty great. Solid and cheap for what they are.


----------



## charlieclouser (Aug 14, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> Thanks for the heads up, just ordered one (sweet price btw) to free some desk space. I have a Yamaha DTXM12 mounted in a weird position so I don't use it very often... the Akai will see a lot more action.


I had a DTXM12 for a minute but the pads felt weirdly hard and stiff. I believe it's intended to be used behind an acoustic kit where you're naturally playing with much more force than just bopping away in the control room. So I got rid of it and got the Roland SPD-SX which has rubbery pads that are nicely bouncy; it feels very different even from other Roland multi-pads like the current generation of OctaPad, which - like the DTX - seems to be intended to be hit much harder than the SPD, and feels very different from the SPD.


----------



## Toecutter (Aug 15, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> I had a DTXM12 for a minute but the pads felt weirdly hard and stiff. I believe it's intended to be used behind an acoustic kit where you're naturally playing with much more force than just bopping away in the control room. So I got rid of it and got the Roland SPD-SX which has rubbery pads that are nicely bouncy; it feels very different even from other Roland multi-pads like the current generation of OctaPad, which - like the DTX - seems to be intended to be hit much harder than the SPD, and feels very different from the SPD.


Yea I had the OctaPad for a while and replaced it with the DTX thinking it would be a step up on the pads but they indeed felt similarly stiff. Ended up gathering dust, I use the keys most of the time and I miss having good pads, even more now with Hammers. I'll look at the SPD, thanks for giving it a thumbs up!


----------



## Markus Kohlprath (Aug 15, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> I'm still a fiend for consistent, precise, repeatable mapping, no matter what the sample sets consist of.


This is something you might want to tell the Spitfire team. The inconsistency of keyswitch mapping between different libraries is something that can drive me crazy. Why is a pizzicato in SCS on a totally different key than in BBC e.g. Something every composer wants at first place when dealing with different libraries. So why not make a consistent mapping with all SF libraries at least? It's like you have to do meaningless work for something that could easily have been done with a little bit of thinking and planning from the beginning.


----------



## styledelk (Aug 15, 2021)

Markus Kohlprath said:


> This is something you might want to tell the Spitfire team. The inconsistency of keyswitch mapping between different libraries is something that can drive me crazy. Why is a pizzicato in SCS on a totally different key than in BBC e.g. Something every composer wants at first place when dealing with different libraries. So why not make a consistent mapping with all SF libraries at least? It's like you have to do meaningless work for something that could easily have been done with a little bit of thinking and planning from the beginning.


They were extremely consistent for awhile and even developed their own standard with the UACC based system... which I'm guessing just wasn't adopted enough.


----------



## jbuhler (Aug 15, 2021)

styledelk said:


> They were extremely consistent for awhile and even developed their own standard with the UACC based system... which I'm guessing just wasn't adopted enough.


They still mostly follow UACC assignments in their Kontakt releases. The Spitfire player inexplicably doesn’t have the feature and could really use it. I use Logic articulation sets and use the UACC’s to assign articulation IDs to all articulation sets. That way when I transfer midi the articulations transfer as well.


----------



## Markus Kohlprath (Aug 15, 2021)

styledelk said:


> They were extremely consistent for awhile and even developed their own standard with the UACC based system... which I'm guessing just wasn't adopted enough.


Seriously? I have for every Albion a different lemur button set. The uacc system would have been great if it would have been universally adopted. But obviously wasn't. Not even by themself. 
To be fair it isn't that easy especially if you didn't have a very good thought out system from the beginning. Probably it's just to late to unify everything and we kind of are used to wild West in this regard anyway. But in the meantime the hassel of going through setting up and learning a new vi instrument is often the main reason for me not to buy something to be honest.


----------

