# Opinions on Piston's "Counterpoint?"



## RSK (Apr 26, 2022)

Title says it all.


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## sDg (Apr 26, 2022)

A bit long in the tooth at this point, IMHO. There's better pedagogy out there now including Kent Kennan's book "Counterpoint"... Oh, and I nearly forgot about "Counterpoint in Composition" by Salzer & Schachter.

The one I taught with most recently was "The Craft of Tonal Counterpoint" by Thomas Benjamin. It would be excellent for someone in a undergraduate degree and beyond.


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## JohnG (Apr 26, 2022)

I agree that Piston feels pretty dusty by now.

Curious about what you're gunning for, studying counterpoint? is it an interest in someone else's music -- the Baroque, or Bach / Buxtehude / [insert composer name here]?

Or are you seeking to cultivate your musical knowledge overall with a view toward applying it to your own compositions?


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## RSK (Apr 26, 2022)

JohnG said:


> I agree that Piston feels pretty dusty by now.
> 
> Curious about what you're gunning for, studying counterpoint? is it an interest in someone else's music -- the Baroque, or Bach / Buxtehude / [insert composer name here]?
> 
> Or are you seeking to cultivate your musical knowledge overall with a view toward applying it to your own compositions?


Wouldn't one study exemplary examples of the concept in others' work in order to apply it in one's own?

That's what I'm looking to do.


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## RSK (Apr 26, 2022)

bachstudies said:


> A bit long in the tooth at this point, IMHO. There's better pedagogy out there now including Kent Kennan's book "Counterpoint"... Oh, and I nearly forgot about "Counterpoint in Composition" by Salzer & Schachter.
> 
> The one I taught with most recently was "The Craft of Tonal Counterpoint" by Thomas Benjamin. It would be excellent for someone in a undergraduate degree and beyond.


If you were to start with either Kennan or Benjamin, which would you choose?


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## sDg (Apr 27, 2022)

RSK said:


> If you were to start with either Kennan or Benjamin, which would you choose?


The Benjamin text, probably.


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## b_elliott (Apr 27, 2022)

FWIW I went through the first quarter of Piston's _Counterpoint_. Its initial chapters _The Melodic Curve_, _Melodic Rhythm _and _Harmonic Rhythm a_re insightful -- brand-new viewpoints to me.

Piston clearly explains those concepts with simple, doable exercises at the end of each chapter. EDIT: Tip for studying Piston == listen to the music snippets he gives as examples of melodic this, rhythmic that. I used Youtube to hear the counterpoint examples. 

I skipped the remaining chapters as useless actions for my needs [likely go back to at a later time].

I also got some mileage out of Jepperson's _Counterpoint _which is more Palestrina oriented.

From those two books I composed an Heinrich Isaac, Palestrina, Zappa song: _I Left My Heart in HIP-Z_. Likely causing crusty counter-pointers to cringe; but, heck it's counterpoint put to work.

Cheers, Bill


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## JohnG (Apr 27, 2022)

RSK said:


> Wouldn't one study exemplary examples of the concept in others' work in order to apply it in one's own?
> 
> That's what I'm looking to do.


If that's your goal, I recommend spending very little time on "counterpoint" as such, instead looking at scores you admire and working out how the masters use contrary motion. When teachers use the word "counterpoint," most of the time they are talking about baroque (Bach, Handel etc.). I realise that there's counterpoint in many composers' work besides the baroque but, despite the glories of the craft, pursuing techniques perfected in the 18th century is not something that most young composers want.

Naturally, if you love old school counterpoint, have at it. I love it, personally.

*Instead?*

Instead, if you like film scores, there are some very good ones out there in print, with plenty of advanced arranging and composition:

1. John Powell's "How to Train Your Dragon" is like a composing master class in and of itself, if you like the orchestra.
2. Same with John Williams' scores (many are available for purchase, but be sure to look for the full orchestral ensembles -- there are some out there for chamber groups).
3. Alan Silvestri's "Back to the Future" is also available to purchase. It's a dynamite template for every aspect of film composition.

From the classical repertoire, if that's more your style, you can learn a lot by looking at Debussy and Ravel -- both available on inexpensive scores printed by Dover (you can probably find those on Amazon). Both are genius orchestrator / arrangers -- nobody better. And of course the big 19th century scores that everyone has aped for 150 years (Wagner, Ravel, Richard Strauss, Respighi). [edit: I just received the Dover score for Bruckner's 6th and 8th symphonies -- open just about any page and you can learn something]

*How To?*

I think you can learn a lot doing a little. Specifically, find four or eight bars that you think are stupendous, then read the score to figure out what's going on. You don't have to boil the ocean to learn a lot.


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## Dave Connor (Apr 27, 2022)

Counterpoint is one of those studies where you really need to have your work looked at. I say that having studied it and in teaching it. I worked out of Hal Johnson’s books when studying with him back in the day. A Student recently told me he’s been searching for the right counterpoint books for 10 years without really finding one. He loves Hal’s method and has gone as far as three voice inventions very successfully. To my knowledge Hal’s books are unavailable but they’re designed to be studied with a teacher anyway. You can PM me if it’s something you’re interested in. Good luck in any case. There’s nothing like having the arsenal of counterpoint at your disposal.


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## Steve Martin (Apr 28, 2022)

Dave Connor said:


> Counterpoint is one of those studies where you really need to have your work looked at. I say that having studied it and in teaching it. I worked out of Hal Johnson’s books when studying with him back in the day. A Student recently told me he’s been searching for the right counterpoint books for 10 years without really finding one. He loves Hal’s method and has gone as far as three voice inventions very successfully. To my knowledge Hal’s books are unavailable but they’re designed to be studied with a teacher anyway. You can PM me if it’s something you’re interested in. Good luck in any case. There’s nothing like having the arsenal of counterpoint at your disposal.


Hi Dave, 
out of interest I googled Hal Johnson. I could not find a Hal Johnson but I did find a Hall Johnson. Is it the same person?
Thanks. Steve.


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## sDg (Apr 28, 2022)

Almost forgot:

https://www.amazon.com/Harmony-Voice-Leading-Edward-Aldwell/dp/0495189758/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&text=Carl+Schachter (Harmony and Voice Leading 4th Edition)

It's all-encompassing guide with a very accessible counterpoint section. Easy to move onto Schenkerian Analysis after getting this all sorted in your brain.


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## Dave Connor (Apr 28, 2022)

Steve Martin said:


> Hi Dave,
> out of interest I googled Hal Johnson. I could not find a Hal Johnson but I did find a Hall Johnson. Is it the same person?
> Thanks. Steve.


Hi Steve,

There isn’t a whole lot about Hal online. His IMDB page is under Harold V. Johnson. Discogs does have him as Hal Johnson. Both are incomplete I’m sure. I know he orchestrated for Victor Young for example.

He was much sought after in Los Angeles. For example, the student I would bump into leaving his lesson every week was J.A.C. Redford. He‘s been Thomas Newman’s sole orchestrator for many years now.

Hal was as good as a composition teacher can be it always seemed to me.


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## MaxOctane (Apr 28, 2022)

I’ve tried self-study on CP and never get very far. It feels very formulaic always: put 6ths and 4ths and 5ths above the CF according to these rules, and you’ll get a pleasant counter-line. It feels like a mindless fill-in-the-blanks. Of course, how could I argue with all the Masters who obsessively studied it?

I’ve concluded that without someone looking over my work, it might be pointless, as someone commented above.


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## gamma-ut (Apr 28, 2022)

MaxOctane said:


> 4ths and 5ths above the CF according to these rules,


That's not how it works. I'm not sure which rules you've been looking at, but fourths in Fux are a big no-no (although the reasons for banning them pretty much died out with Fux himself).

There is some truth to the idea that writing species counterpoint in the end comes down to pattern matching – I think David Huron and Co did some research on this that's mentioned in his voice-leading book where they concluded by the end of the course students recognise certain patterns as guaranteed rule-breakers so avoid them. 

However, you also have to bear in mind species counterpoint has a specific role: maintain the illusion of independence between the two, three, four melodies while also making them seem coherent though it doesn't guarantee the results will be "good": that final bit comes down to taste. 

It's on the spectrum between full-monty species counterpoint and homophony where you need to decide whether counterpoint is worth it or not rather than whether it is a fill-in-the-blanks job.


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## Steve Martin (Apr 28, 2022)

Dave Connor said:


> Hi Steve,
> 
> There isn’t a whole lot about Hal online. His IMDB page is under Harold V. Johnson. Discogs does have him as Hal Johnson. Both are incomplete I’m sure. I know he orchestrated for Victor Young for example.
> 
> ...


Hi Dave,

thank you for your reply. Sounds like an outstanding teacher. I would be very interested to come across materials he has written. I'll see if I can come across anything he has published. I saw you mention a point that he does not have any published books, so I maybe just lucky enough to come across something he may have published.

Thanks,
Steve


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## MaxOctane (Apr 28, 2022)

gamma-ut said:


> That's not how it works. I'm not sure which rules you've been looking at, but fourths in Fux are a big no-no (although the reasons for banning them pretty much died out with Fux himself).


Ha, I was just listing intervals. But yes, good reminder  



gamma-ut said:


> There is some truth to the idea that writing species counterpoint in the end comes down to pattern matching – I think David Huron and Co did some research on this that's mentioned in his voice-leading book where they concluded by the end of the course students recognise certain patterns as guaranteed rule-breakers so avoid them.
> 
> However, you also have to bear in mind species counterpoint has a specific role: maintain the illusion of independence between the two, three, four melodies while also making them seem coherent though it doesn't guarantee the results will be "good": that final bit comes down to taste.


Sure, the goal is clear: independent yet coherent lines, etc. And I take your meaning (and had roughly come to this conclusion in my study attempts) that one has to simply exercise the rule-driven patterns over and over until they become second nature, at which point one begin to apply actual musical taste and construct meaningful counterlines. I vaguely recall one of the standard books or study guides actually makes this point at the beginning, that the exercises should not be thought of as "making music" _per se_, but that comes later once the rules and patterns are understood and internalized.


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## mikeh-375 (Apr 28, 2022)

I agree with Dave, @Dave Connor about counterpont being a powerful resource. It informs all good, well written music and is a vital component in orchestral music and individual part/section writing. Learning it from the bottom up (i.e. from species counterpoint onwards), is also something I'd highly recommend as it helps to develop good harmonic sense via concordant/discordant principles betwen individual lines. It also teaches how to create a natural musical flow to a part.

Much as I respect you John - @JohnG , I disagree with you about how irrelevant earlier styles of counterpoint might be to a modern orchestral writer or scorer, because over time, a full knowledge of the discipline can translate into much creative potential and option in any language...it's how you use and crucially, adapt it that counts, but only if you know about it. Not that what you say isn't a good idea of course and it will suit probably more folk wanting to learn than my suggestion might.

To my mind though the soundest of principles and the most powerful approach to learning are to be found in an exhaustive bottom up approach, absorbing principles and gradually gaining and maturing in a more rounded compositional competence. As always, ymmv and boy does it ever when we are talking music.


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## mikeh-375 (Apr 28, 2022)

MaxOctane said:


> I’ve tried self-study on CP and never get very far. It feels very formulaic always: put 6ths and 4ths and 5ths above the CF according to these rules, and you’ll get a pleasant counter-line. It feels like a mindless fill-in-the-blanks. Of course, how could I argue with all the Masters who obsessively studied it?
> 
> I’ve concluded that without someone looking over my work, it might be pointless, as someone commented above.


Max, you need to absorb the rules and only then, apply them to your own voice. Let them support you, guide you, not restrain you. Practice them until you understand them fully (very important) as to what they can do musically and then try using them in a freer manner with your own imagination bending them to your own voice.
Yes it can be a little mechanical at first but that's ok, so is learning and playing scales and that did nobody any harm right?


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## Dave Connor (Apr 28, 2022)

Steve Martin said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> thank you for your reply. Sounds like an outstanding teacher. I would be very interested to come across materials he has written. I'll see if I can come across anything he has published. I saw you mention a point that he does not have any published books, so I maybe just lucky enough to come across something he may have published.


You just might be able to find one of Hal’s books out there - I don’t know. There are four volumes that are to be studied in sequence. I will see what I can find out but I don’t think his estate did anything as far as making his material available.


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## NuNativs (Apr 28, 2022)

I tried to learn counterpoint but felt like I was in a straight jacket. Same with strict V-I cadence and all the "proper" rules...


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## Dave Connor (Apr 28, 2022)

MaxOctane said:


> Of course, how could I argue with all the Masters who obsessively studied it?


What’s fascinating and can hardly be a coincidence is the fact that both Mozart and Beethoven turned heavily toward counterpoint in their later works (as did Haydn via Mozart’s influence.) It opened up a depth of expression to them after their exhaustive efforts in mainly Homophonic writing.

Beethoven’s stunning fugue in his C# minor quartet (arranged for strings by Dimitri Mitropoulos) is completely transparent without an ounce of filler. There is no other form which can accomplish this sort of expression.


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## NuNativs (Apr 28, 2022)

I think it's a style like any other, not the "proper" way to write music. If that's the sound you're after knock yourself out. Remember metal/rock is ALL parallel 5ths and octaves heaven forbid!


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## Dave Connor (Apr 28, 2022)

As far as commercial application in today’s world, I can think of no better example than a cue in The da Vinci Code. I think it occurs when the butler gets it. It’s basically two part counterpoint in low strings against each other. It’s very powerful and dramatic; does everything for the scene and is outright gorgeous music. No other texture would’ve accomplished that in quite that way, and of course Hans knew that and really hit a marvelous home run with it. So I don’t think you can sell counterpoint short in its viability in today’s musical marketplace. It’s just a very distinct sound that seems to be a perfect blend of the highly emotional and scientific at the same time, and for which there is no substitute.


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## NuNativs (Apr 28, 2022)

Maybe I'm too lazy?


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## MaxOctane (Apr 28, 2022)

NuNativs said:


> Maybe I'm too lazy?


This thread has inspired me to give it another go. I expect it will be tedious... but maybe there's a reward ahead?


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## RSK (Apr 28, 2022)

MaxOctane said:


> I’ve tried self-study on CP and never get very far. It feels very formulaic always: put 6ths and 4ths and 5ths above the CF according to these rules, and you’ll get a pleasant counter-line. It feels like a mindless fill-in-the-blanks. Of course, how could I argue with all the Masters who obsessively studied it?
> 
> I’ve concluded that without someone looking over my work, it might be pointless, as someone commented above.


This is where I'm at. I don't want to use the formulaic approach of the first few species of counterpoint. I want to start creating counterpoint that could be a melody all on it's own, but working extremely well with the CF so that the two are more than the sum.


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## RSK (Apr 28, 2022)

NuNativs said:


> I think it's a style like any other, not the "proper" way to write music. If that's the sound you're after knock yourself out. Remember metal/rock is ALL parallel 5ths and octaves heaven forbid!


That's because the additional harmonics from distortion pretty much demand it.


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## Living Fossil (Apr 28, 2022)

RSK said:


> Wouldn't one study exemplary examples of the concept in others' work in order to apply it in one's own?
> 
> That's what I'm looking to do.



One book that i would absolutely recommend is Ernst Kurth's book _"Foundations of linear counterpoint"_
(Grundlagen des linearen Kontrapunkts).

It's not a book that "teaches" how to mimic counterpoint, but instead – based on Bach's music – gives a great sense of understanding counterpoint on a deeper level.

Kurth is one of those theorists who was/is absolutely underestimated because he focussed on the substance of music and less on formalistic strategies. Understanding always needs effort by the one who wants to understand, therefore many people prefer "recipes" that work much easier...

One point that Kurth stresses btw is the fact that there is a huge difference between "constructed" counterpoint, and counterpoint that is born from the inner hearing of the composer. But of course, there is lot of exercise involved until the latter point can be reached.


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## b_elliott (Apr 28, 2022)

NuNativs said:


> I tried to learn counterpoint but felt like I was in a straight jacket. Same with strict V-I cadence and all the "proper" rules...


One of the barriers to counterpoint are such considerations: it is a straitjacket of rules.

Here is where the Jepperson _Counterpoint _book excels at disassembling. Jepperson's scholarship digs deeply into the spirit and minds that worked the counterpoint of pre-Baroque times. 

I felt led into the era, including the history of the monks whose transcription errors led to a mix-up in the church modes as we know them today.

One can marvel at the creativity Palestrina infused into _Sicut Cervus_ (counterpoint on Psalm 42; basically a deer drinking from a creek and the psalmist wanting to similarly drink in God.)

One can hear the undulating creek in how he manipulates voice entries. Rules are for lawyers. Artists are meant to transcend the barriers.

Best, Bill


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## Dave Connor (Apr 28, 2022)

NuNativs said:


> Maybe I'm too lazy?


Actually John G’s advice was hardly bad. Since there are a million things to learn with computers, software, sample libraries, synths, current trends and styles etc., it makes sense to allocate your time in tackling all those essential fundamentals rather than bury yourself in a single study such as Counterpoint. To get up and running you have a lot on your plate to begin with and Counterpoint isn’t going to be a basic requirement with most clients or situations.

The problem is that Music as a subject and science has its own list of requirements, with Counterpoint being a huge component in its makeup and history. So in the ultimate sense, it’s a vital area that swings open a rather vast area of expression for the composer: proven over and over historically.

My advice is not to exclude it and get around to it sooner rather than later.


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## RSK (Apr 28, 2022)

So is the consensus still that there are better resources than Piston?


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## SandChannel (Apr 28, 2022)

RSK said:


> So is the consensus still that there are better resources than Piston?


Having read this thread, it appears the only consensus is there is no consensus.


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## RSK (Apr 28, 2022)

I would expect no less from this site.


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## sDg (Apr 28, 2022)

RSK said:


> So is the consensus still that there are better resources than Piston?


My latest thoughts: I've already answered the original question and given recommendations but I'd like to point out that to really absorb the study of counterpoint into your compositions, you need to live and breath the stuff. That means, listening to lots of it, playing lots of it (maybe the most important?) and actively composing using the stuff even if it sometimes feels formulaic. After a while, you will hopefully find yourself using counterpoint or counterpoint-esque textures that work for what you need. Film composition isn't ever going to rise to the levels of late Bach, Mozart of Beethoven so don't fret it.


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## pinki (Apr 28, 2022)

Counterpoint is a tool to create beauty. How can we not talk about about melodic figuration? Escape tones, appoggiaturas, dissonance... rhythm, are all embraced within the wonderful world of counterpoint. And also meta-structure and form. Its infinite! And liberating!

(I highly recommend Alain's Score Club for a great take on what to use and what to ditch when it comes to "the rules" in contemporary scoring)


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## R.G. (Apr 28, 2022)

RSK said:


> So is the consensus still that there are better resources than Piston?


For what the subject covers, the umbrella term "counterpoint" is less than ideal and a bit misleading, but we're stuck with it. And the sudden supposed need—for the first time in hundreds of years of monumental musical accomplishment—to issue an unnecessary *Harmful if Swallowed* warning label regarding the effective study of counterpoint is unfortunate.

That said, the book to get is:

_Counterpoint in Composition_, by Salzer and Schachter

There are lots of myths and misunderstandings about counterpoint, what it is and is not, its use and application, and this book clears them up, mostly by osmosis, where others (and other teachers) don't. It supplies a modern approach for modern composers with a beginning stage pursuit of the principles and strategies of "counterpoint". But it _does_ take work, self-discipline, and follow-through.

An excellent companion resource (though not _absolutely_ necessary) would be:

_Voice-leading: The Science Behind a Musical Art_, by David Huron

Counterpoint is not a style, a texture (i.e., not contrapuntal only; it applies to pretty much any texture), a period, a century, an era, one composer's historical accomplishments in polyphony, a single set of dry rules, constrictions on creativity, a single certain system or approach, or someone else's arbitrary composing recipe to follow. It does not say:

_This is the right way to compose; compose like this or else you're doing it wrong!_

You have to avoid confusing the introductory necessities required for teaching the first phase of it with what it is *in practice*, which is a set of individual composer choices based on his or her creative goals. Something that, if properly understood and applied, will at the very least polish one's technique in handling intervals, harmonies, linear and horizontal movement, rhythm, lines, motifs, and texture. And at the most it can assist the composer in finding his or her own voice. Ultimately, Counterpoint requires experimentation(!), just not right off the bat.

Counterpoint is also not a book, a pedagogy, or a college class for graduation credit taught by a timeserver who lacks the musical wisdom to provide the necessary context and skillset for application and self-teaching going forward.

Counterpoint is the pursuit of a vital aspect of compositional technique, without which some of the more effective approaches to orchestration and orchestral texture will be problematic at best, or else shut off entirely to the composer at worst. Composers great and good have testified to this for hundreds of years now, explicitly and implicitly.

There is 16th Century vocal counterpoint, 18th Century instrumental counterpoint, linear-modal counterpoint, harmonic-tonal counterpoint, strict counterpoint, florid counterpoint, descant counterpoint, thematic counterpoint, motivic counterpoint, atonal counterpoint (and books on same), Jazz counterpoint (and books on same), and so on.

There's not a point at which one says: _Okay, now I know counterpoint._

One's individual approach to counterpoint comes down to a sliding scale. Counterpoint in the Romantic era cannot be summed up as its own common practice, as it splintered off into different distinctly approaches by composer—some conservative, some not, some radical departures—though general observations can be made if taken in the broad view.

Bach's tonal harmonic instrumental counterpoint nearly completely subverts Fux's modal vocal Palestrina model. There is counterpoint as Mozart used it in his poly-thematic textures, counterpoint as Beethoven used it in his symphonic juxtapositions, Schumann's "reckless" counterpoint, Wagner's tonal dissolution counterpoint, counterpoint as Richard Strauss employed it in his highly elaborate symphonic textures, Tchaikovsky's thematic counterpoint, Brahms developing variations counterpoint, Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, et al, each had their approaches, and they all began with a solid grounding in the subject. Jazz arranger, Bill Holman, was notable for his very obvious and clever big band counterpoint, and Bill Evans's counterpoint was famously influenced by Bach's, but no one has ever confused the two.

When Richard Strauss introduced himself by letter to Von Bulow as a teenager at the beginning of his career, the only thing he told him about his composition studies was who his counterpoint teacher was. It was considered that important.

The introductory levels of counterpoint lay the groundwork for advanced ear training techniques, and for studying the approaches of any and every composer one wishes to investigate on a case-by-case basis.

John Williams recommends that composers study counterpoint just as his teacher, Castelnuevo-Tedesco, did for him, who regularly stressed its importance in developing the necessary creative muscles integral to composing, especially for some of the richer orchestral textures.

Nadia Boulanger, greatest music teacher in history—one who didn't abide lazy people—famously drilled her students in counterpoint and integrated it with intense ear training.

Here's a list of some of her more well known students, most of which are/were composers, and none of whom sound like Bach or Baroque or 18th Century, or any other pigeonhole, or creatively restricted in any way.

George Antheil
Burt Bacharach
Daniel Barenboim
Robert Russell Bennet
Leonard Bernstein
Elliott Carter
Aaron Copland
David Diamond
John Eliot Gardner
Philip Glass
Roy Harris
Wojciech Kilar
Quincy Jones
Leo Kraft
Michel Legrand
Dinu Lipatti
Gian Carlo Menotti
Walter Piston
Bernard Rogers
Laurence Rosenthal
Astor Piazola
Soulima Stravinsky
Virgil Thomson


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## pinki (Apr 29, 2022)

R.G. said:


> For what the subject covers, the umbrella term "counterpoint" is less than ideal and a bit misleading, but we're stuck with it. And the sudden supposed need—for the first time in hundreds of years of monumental musical accomplishment—to issue an unnecessary *Harmful if Swallowed* warning label regarding the effective study of counterpoint is unfortunate.
> 
> That said, the book to get is:
> 
> ...


Great post. There is a deep and profound musical essence in counterpoint. You have defended it most eloquently.


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## Gil (Apr 29, 2022)

b_elliott said:


> Here is where the Jepperson _Counterpoint _book excels at disassembling.


Hello,
Great thread! Thanks for all the book references!

However, I can' find this book, do you have any reference about it?
Or do you mean Jeppesen?


Thanks!
Regards,
Gil.


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## b_elliott (Apr 29, 2022)

Gil said:


> Or do you mean Jeppesen?
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> ...



You got it. Knud Jeppesen, _Counterpoint, The Polyphonic Vocal Style of the 16th Century_. PDF here:


http://www.a-misson.eu/Pub/09_Counterpoint%20C/jeppesen,%20knud%20-%20counterpoint.pdf


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## jonnybutter (Apr 29, 2022)

Dave Connor said:


> What’s fascinating and can hardly be a coincidence is the fact that both Mozart and Beethoven turned heavily toward counterpoint in their later works (as did Haydn via Mozart’s influence.) It opened up a depth of expression to them after their exhaustive efforts in mainly Homophonic writing.
> 
> Beethoven’s stunning fugue in his C# minor quartet (arranged for strings by Dimitri Mitropoulos) is completely transparent without an ounce of filler. There is no other form which can accomplish this sort of expression.



I’d say it’s because they both knew the work of the Master, and that trite little homophonic ditties can take you only so far (pre-Beethoven). I don’t think JS Bach was a household name in those days, but both of them knew him. I have been in love with classical fugue for years! Mozart’s fugues proper are kind of obscure, and they shouldn’t be. He wrote some good ones! (And yes it definitely deepened Haydn’s later work!) Not to mention Beethoven’s incredible counterpoint. Webern kind of picked up where they left off in a way.


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## JohnG (Apr 29, 2022)

R.G. said:


> Counterpoint is not a style, a texture (i.e., not contrapuntal only; it applies to pretty much any texture), a period, a century, an era, one composer's historical accomplishments in polyphony, a single set of dry rules, constrictions on creativity, a single certain system or approach, or someone else's arbitrary composing recipe to follow.


I mean, duh.

But you've redefined the question so it's something completely different from the original question. You've broadened it so much that it means -- whatever you decide it means. If 'counterpoint' means everything including independence of line, contrary motion, voice leading, then I think it doesn't address the original question: Piston's approach. 

When someone asks, "should I learn Piston's counterpoint?" I think, "there are better things to spend time on." Some of the other books you and others have suggested would, I think, be more helpful to someone who wants to compose today.

I get it -- I learned counterpoint too, including inventions, fugues, jazz-based 'counterpoint' and all that. I just think some of the other resources are more useful if you're a composer in 2022.


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## jonnybutter (Apr 29, 2022)

I find the above advice good and helpful, since I don’t keep up on this stuff (not a teacher now). But in a way it doesn’t really matter if the book is old or not, at least when you start with tonal, 4 part harmony. If you can, get a good teacher to look at your exercises in the beginning. Then just look to the literature. Bach wrote some chorales you can take a look at. 

The idea is to be intentional, to break or obey rules with intent because you know exquisitely well what they are. A teacher can get you started with very strict rules, then loosen them one by one, and eventually you will be on your way from there.


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## RSK (Apr 29, 2022)




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## MaxOctane (Apr 29, 2022)




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## Gil (Apr 29, 2022)

Hello,

Even if obviously it won't replace at all a teacher, you can check your counterpoint using artinfuser: https://artinfuser.com/exercise/editor.html

Regards,
Gil.


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## TonalDynamics (Apr 29, 2022)

bachstudies said:


> A bit long in the tooth at this point, IMHO. There's better pedagogy out there now including Kent Kennan's book "Counterpoint"... Oh, and I nearly forgot about "Counterpoint in Composition" by Salzer & Schachter.
> 
> The one I taught with most recently was "The Craft of Tonal Counterpoint" by Thomas Benjamin. It would be excellent for someone in a undergraduate degree and beyond.



Evening Mr. Bach (and other contributors), I'm sure these types of questions get repeated from time to time, nevertheless...

I am looking to refresh some of my theory knowledge vis a vis Counterpoint and Orchestration.

I'm aware of the S&S book and I'm probably going to delve a bit deeper into Sam Adler's Orchestration.
Is there anything you'd recommend over the Kennan text, or is that the most effective pedagogy in textbook form you're aware of? Any suggestions for orchestration in particular?

I have at least a B.M. level of understanding in harmony and general theory, but what I know about Counterpoint and the orchestra I generally just learned by looking at and listening to scores.

I'm essentially looking for a text which covers the technical definitions in a concise manner, provides excellent example passages in a practical and musical way, teaching method that is more or less pleasant to follow.

Also there are some real gems in this thread - thanks to the educators and contributors for the insights, in particular the study of contrary motion from score excerpts of great composers, that has to be one of the best things one can do from a time efficiency perspective.

Cheers!


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## sDg (Apr 30, 2022)

TonalDynamics said:


> Evening Mr. Bach (and other contributors), I'm sure these types of questions get repeated from time to time, nevertheless...
> 
> I am looking to refresh some of my theory knowledge vis a vis Counterpoint and Orchestration.
> 
> ...


Yes, the Benjamin book I recommended in this thread is excellent for studying counterpoint. As for orchestration, I prefer the Kent Kennan book (yes, he has books on both counterpoint and orchestration) over the Adler.


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## Steve Martin (Apr 30, 2022)

Dave Connor said:


> You just might be able to find one of Hal’s books out there - I don’t know. There are four volumes that are to be studied in sequence. I will see what I can find out but I don’t think his estate did anything as far as making his material available.


Hi Dave,

thanks for that. I'll search around also and see what I can find as well.


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## waveheavy (May 1, 2022)

RSK said:


> Title says it all.


Don't know if anyone mentioned Peter Alexander's revision of 17th century Fux's work on CP. That's where I learned it.


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## fakemaxwell (May 1, 2022)

I had a better time learning counterpoint through Scoreclub (videos). Got really tired of every single text saying X Y and Z is FORBIDDEN. Alain goes through all of the old rules and explains why they're there and when it's fine to ignore them, which is especially helpful when you're trying to write music that isn't aimed at 18th century churchgoers.


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## youngpokie (May 2, 2022)

MaxOctane said:


> I’ve tried self-study on CP and never get very far. It feels very formulaic always: put 6ths and 4ths and 5ths above the CF according to these rules, and you’ll get a pleasant counter-line. It feels like a mindless fill-in-the-blanks. Of course, how could I argue with all the Masters who obsessively studied it?


Just a side note: it was a bit of a revelation for me personally to learn that counterpoint became a system over an exceptionally long period of time, and it was originally a reaction to the music that came before - specifically the old style organum of X century that was pretty much ONLY parallel fifths, fourths and octaves and only one-directional parallel voice motion. 

Just imagine - _all_ music surrounding us made with only "power chords", nothing else! And more: power chords in their purest form, without any of the distortion rock-n-rollers use to enrich and mask that horribly empty sound.

No wonder then, that when musicians discovered how beautifully resonant and rich the 3rds and 6ths sound, every effort was made to ban those hollow "perfect" consonances and switch to these intervals instead. They do still sound magical, even though all music of several centuries is based on them and it's in our DNA now.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 2, 2022)

The Piston books used to literally make me drowsy. They're *so* dry.


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## sinkd (May 2, 2022)

RSK said:


>


This is The Way.


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## Zanshin (May 3, 2022)

RSK said:


>


Pfft... 




JK of course, I ordered "Counterpoint in Composition" based on this excellent thread. The counterpoint books I have in my reading pile are "The Study of..." translated by Alfred Mann and the Berklee book "Contemporary Counterpoint". 

Next up me though is "Theory of Harmony" by Schoenberg. I think he has a counterpoint book too, is that a good one too?


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## RSK (May 3, 2022)




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## RSK (May 3, 2022)

Who you flexin' on, punk?


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