# Are we in the dark ages of hybrid synths?



## Pier (Jul 13, 2022)

I'm pasting this post I wrote in another thread and starting a new one on suggestion of @Nico5 .

For context, this all started in a thread about the limitations of Omnisphere for handling user multisamples.

------

LONG RANT INCOMING!!!

I hope I'm not going completely off-topic here... but lately I've been thinking we're in a bit of a hybrid synth dark ages era now. IMO (which is of course subjective) there's really no good hybrid solution in the market.

Omnisphere fits a certain niche well, but it's really not a good hybrid sound design environment for all the reasons expressed in this thread already.

Falcon is extremely powerful but IMO also quite a pain to use, and there are other drawbacks I can't mention because I signed an NDA. Not super popular either.

Halion, again super powerful, but almost nobody is using it. I think the reason is that, just like Falcon, it's really a pain to use. Steinberg is probably too busy with Cubase, Nuendo, etc, to pay too much attention to its instruments.

There are 3 synths I know of that allow importing multisamples in sfz or some other format but no editing of the mapping. These are Rapid, VPS Avenger, and Equator. Whenever I look for good demos for Rapid or Avenger I stumble upon crap like this... and Roli almost disappeared recently which doesn't inspire much confidence.

There are many other synths that allow importing a sample(s) but the sampling feature is barely a footnote in the product. I'm talking about Dune, PhasePlant, Pigments, etc. As much as I wished that PhasePlant added multisamples, I seriously doubt any of those will go deeper into the sampling aspect as the investment would be too high.

Personally the best hybrid sound design environment I've used is Bitwig itself... but IMO it's a terrible DAW for reasons I've discussed _ad nauseam_ in other threads. It would be great if there was a Bitwig Rack that could be loaded in other DAWs but I don't think this is happening either.

END OF RANT

Honestly I think Native Instruments has a huge opportunity here. Kontakt dominates multisampling and they have the resources to create a next gen hybrid sound design environment with it. Who knows, maybe that's why Kontakt 7 is taking so long 

---------
_End of original post_

I now remembered this thread I started about 2 years ago when I was looking for a hybrid synth and ended up getting into Bitwig instead.

A year after that I bought Falcon and wrote this mini review (spoilers: I didn't like it).


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## Living Fossil (Jul 13, 2022)

Well, and then there is Melda's Soundfactory which could be a game changer if more sound designers would actually program sounds for it.
(same with MPowersynth: great synth, almost no 3rd party soundsets)


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 13, 2022)

Nexus if you want to sell one of your body parts to pay for it.


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## rhizomusicosmos (Jul 13, 2022)

Perhaps if Kontakt could merge with the modular architecture of Reaktor?


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## Pier (Jul 13, 2022)

Living Fossil said:


> Well, and then there is Melda's Soundfactory which could be a game changer if more sound designers would actually program sounds for it.
> (same with MPowersynth: great synth, almost no 3rd party soundsets)


Yeah @doctoremmet remind me of it in the other thread.

It really is a beast in terms of features. It's absolutely fugly but I think I could get used to it. And the navigation using the module grid seems a lot better than Falcon (which requires a lot of clicking and scrolling around).

I've been looking but I can't seem to find any third party library or even any demo other than the official ones. The included presets in MPowerSynth are not great to be honest  And I assume the synth parts of MSF are the same as MPS.

Does anyone have good demos for MSF or MPS?

I might get MSF if I get my Gumroad payout before the Melda sale ends 😂


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## tressie5 (Jul 13, 2022)

And I guess that's why you've probably kept your distance from Wavestate Native (if you do, that is). Creating and importing multisamples for it as akin to walking across a swaying 2-mile long foot bridge over a piranha-infested river during a windstorm.


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## Nico5 (Jul 13, 2022)

This page may not be well known enough:



> MSoundFactory plans & device requirements​
> This document is essential reading for everyone who is going to work with MSoundFactory at a more professional level, mainly designing devices (also known as instruments). Development plans will be presented, so that you know what to expect for the future of the plugin. The aim is of course to create in a way an ultimate instrument. Below there are requirements and recommendations for devices made in MSoundFactory; these are specified in order to streamline the workflow of both the user and of the sound creator.











MeldaProduction


MeldaProduction, professional audio processing software, VST / VST3 / AU / AAX plugins for mixing, mastering and creative music processing



www.meldaproduction.com


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## LA68 (Jul 13, 2022)

Have you checked out MUX?


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## Nico5 (Jul 13, 2022)

LA68 said:


> Have you checked out MUX?


is it multi-sample capable? (i.e. both: multiple samples per note and multiple samples across key ranges)


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## LA68 (Jul 13, 2022)

Nico5 said:


> is it multi-sample capable? (i.e. both: multiple samples per note and multiple samples across key ranges)


Well, I don't really use samples (edit: for sound design) and I've never actually used this module in particular, but it seems like it.

Not sure if that's what you guys mean.






Edit2: Well, the other way I forgot to mention...You could just load Kontakt or whatever VST you use as a module inside mux.


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## method1 (Jul 13, 2022)

Bitwig + Live - if you look at them as hybrid design tools, are probably as good as it gets for now.
Live with the push feels just like an instrument, and bitwig has amazing integration with the Arturia Keylab, probably the best hw integration I've seen outside push. I was frustrated using both Live + Bitwig as full-on DAWs but when my mindset changed to treating them like instruments I got a lot more into them.

Good ol' Reason deserves an honorable mention, especially since it can be used as a VST now.


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## Nico5 (Jul 13, 2022)

LA68 said:


> Well, I don't really use samples and I've never actually used this module in particular, but it seems like it.



yes, your screen capture seems to imply that the sample mapping is two dimensional indeed. Thanks for sharing that screen capture!

I haven't used modulars all that much, and so am under the impression (potentially very false), that fully featured sampling is not common. 

MSoundFactory is arguably a modular synth. 

So the question arises:

*Should we consider modular synths when we talk about hybrid synths?*


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## Pier (Jul 13, 2022)

Nico5 said:


> This page may not be well known enough:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is great. No licensing fees and end users can just use the free player.


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## LA68 (Jul 13, 2022)

Nico5 said:


> yes, your screen capture seems to imply that the sample mapping is two dimensional indeed. Thanks for sharing that screen capture!
> 
> I haven't used modulars all that much, and so am under the impression (potentially very false), that fully featured sampling is not common.
> 
> ...



Edited the other post once more btw, not sure if you saw that. That'd be another way to do it in MUX.


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## Nico5 (Jul 13, 2022)

LA68 said:


> That'd be another way to do it in MUX.


I would call that way of doing it more "plugin chaining" - i.e. when you connect other plugins inside a modular environment.

But it's very interesting to note, that MUX by mutools can act as a modular *plus* as a plugin chainer. 

Plugin Chainers I've messed around with include Plogue Bidule and BlueCat PatchWork. And arguably PluginGuru's Unify fits somewhere into that neighborhood, too.


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## dunamisstudio (Jul 13, 2022)

Pier said:


> Whenever I look for good demos for Rapid or Avenger I stumble upon crap like this...


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## dunamisstudio (Jul 13, 2022)

What features are you looking for that aren't in Kontakt?


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## rhizomusicosmos (Jul 13, 2022)

Pier said:


> This is great. No licensing fees and end users can just use the free player.


I see that Simon Stockhausen has a nice preset library for MSoundFactory:





patchpool.de | Sounds and Presets by Simon Stockhausen | MSF Synth Factory







www.patchpool.net





@Sampleconstruct , does it work with the free MSoundFactoryPlayer?


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## Pier (Jul 13, 2022)

dunamisstudio said:


> What features are you looking for that aren't in Kontakt?


Honestly I haven't used Kontakt for sound design in like 15 years but it seems the UI hasn't changed much since then.

And it's all samples, right? No VA or even wavetable oscillators.


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## dunamisstudio (Jul 13, 2022)

Pier said:


> Honestly I haven't used Kontakt for sound design in like 15 years but it seems the UI hasn't changed much since then.
> 
> And it's all samples, right? No VA or even wavetable oscillators.


It's all samples but I've seen people make synths in it. Even Cinesamples made a granular one for It.
As far as Omnisphere, you got eight parts and four layers per part, that should be enough to make some deep sounds. Yeah it's not like Kontakt, but feel it fits better as a synth. With all the sources from older synths and samples.


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## Pier (Jul 13, 2022)

dunamisstudio said:


> As far as Omnisphere, you got eight parts and four layers per part, that should be enough to make some deep sounds. Yeah it's not like Kontakt, but feel it fits better as a synth. With all the sources from older synths and samples.


Yeah that's what we were discussing in the other thread.

Spectrasonics doesn't really want you to import your own samples. No loops points, no multisamples, etc. And the thing is, Omnisphere already has those features, they just don't want third party users having access to that.


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## dunamisstudio (Jul 13, 2022)

Pier said:


> Yeah that's what we were discussing in the other thread.
> 
> Spectrasonics doesn't really want you to import your own samples. No loops points, no multisamples, etc. And the thing is, Omnisphere already has those features, they just don't want third party users having access to that.


Yeah, I'm making my way through that, and bookmarking the tutorials.


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## jbuhler (Jul 13, 2022)

I'm pretty sure there's a wavetable oscillator in Kontakt 6 and that Kontakt 6 made a lot of improvements to other synth capabilities. I haven't worked with the synth capabilities myself, but I recall improvements in synth capabilities being one of the selling points for developers with respect to Kontakt 6.


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## Pier (Jul 13, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> I'm pretty sure there's a wavetable oscillator in Kontakt 6 and that Kontakt 6 made a lot of improvements to other synth capabilities. I haven't worked with the synth capabilities myself, but I recall improvements in synth capabilities being one of the selling points for developers with respect to Kontakt 6.


You're right!


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## dunamisstudio (Jul 13, 2022)

To reply to your initial question, I think we're in a synth rich time. Is there one out there that ticks all the boxes for you. Only you decide that, and guessing not at this moment in time. I hope to work on new stuff this year. I have Kontakt, Falcon and Omni and hope to use my Virus and Guitars to make stuff with them.


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## Sampleconstruct (Jul 13, 2022)

rhizomusicosmos said:


> I see that Simon Stockhausen has a nice preset library for MSoundFactory:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To be honest I don't know but I doubt it does as my presets are not "devices" but presets and I don't use any copy protection, but let me try later today.


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## Paul_xyz (Jul 14, 2022)

Maybe one day waldorf will put the quantum/iridium engine in a plugin - that has 3 oscillators that can each handle multisamples, wavetables, 6-op FM, resonator/physical modelling, granular or VA - with 3 digital filters, lots of modulation etc. The processor that runs all this isn't anything special compared to desktop CPUs (Arm cortex A9 - 1.2GHz quad core).


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## davidson (Jul 14, 2022)

If you ignore the questionable content creator Vengeance use for their expansion demos (where do devs dig up these overacting, over enthusiastic, gurning face with every note press, act like you're on crack cocaine youtube monkeys anyway?), Avenger really is a brilliant synth.


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## Bee_Abney (Jul 14, 2022)

I feel that the so-called 'Dark Ages' (come on people, the correct term now is Very Early Middle Ages) has been insulted. I am offended on its behalf.

Also, where was my trigger warning for wanton grumpiness? [EDIT to add: 'LONG RANT INCOMING!!!' - I was warned!]

In a world with Halion, Falcon and MSoundFactory and a host of others, I feel we are doing rather well for hybrid synths. There could be something better designed for your specific workflow and interests; but in order to satisfy everybody's wishlist, it would be unmanageable as a single synth. As a DAW? Yes, Bitwig doesn't hit the spot; but Bitwig plus another DAW? Is that really difficult to work with?

Maybe I'm just naive, inexperienced, and lacking your syncretic ambitions; but I think I just lack your idealism. I expect to be kicked in the face; so I take every kick in the belly as a blessing.


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## spektralisk (Jul 14, 2022)

Another hybrid synth that does multisamples is Alchemy (I know I know...Logic only, I love it though ).


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## rhizomusicosmos (Jul 14, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> Maybe I'm just naive, inexperienced, and lacking your syncretic ambitions; but I think I just lack your idealism. I expect to be kicked in the face; so I take every kick in the belly as a blessing.


Are these the Very Early Middle Ages you had in mind?


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## Bee_Abney (Jul 14, 2022)

rhizomusicosmos said:


> Are these the Very Early Middle Ages you had in mind?



That's how I spend my time. It just feels right to me.


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## José Herring (Jul 14, 2022)

Pier said:


> Yeah @doctoremmet remind me of it in the other thread.
> 
> It really is a beast in terms of features. It's absolutely fugly but I think I could get used to it. And the navigation using the module grid seems a lot better than Falcon (which requires a lot of clicking and scrolling around).
> 
> ...


 They are both really good but as far as I can tell they aren't the same engine. I could be wrong but they both have really different sonic qualities to me. 
You only need to get MSF. I think that MPS opens fully in MSF. But that could only be for previous owners of MPS. 
Back in the day I only owned 2 VSTi synths one was MPS. I'm very familiar with it so if you have any questions let me know. MSF on the other hand, I'm still trying to get on with it. I recognize it as a vastly superior synth to nearly everything out there, but it lacks a little bit in the "fun to work with" department. But so did MPS for me at first but I got use to it. Now I have some many others that I kind of wish sometimes I was back down to just my original 2 VSTi's.
I will say that if you're looking for 3rd party synths or synths to make libraries for, MPS and MSF are probably the hardest sell.


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## Bee_Abney (Jul 14, 2022)

José Herring said:


> They are both really good but as far as I can tell they aren't the same engine. I could be wrong but they both have really different sonic qualities to me.
> You only need to get MSF. I think that MPS opens fully in MSF. But that could only be for previous owners of MPS.
> Back in the day I only owned 2 VSTi synths one was MPS. I'm very familiar with it so if you have any questions let me know. MSF on the other hand, I'm still trying to get on with it. I recognize it as a vastly superior synth to nearly everything out there, but it lacks a little bit in the "fun to work with" department. But so did MPS for me at first but I got use to it. Now I have some many others that I kind of wish sometimes I was back down to just my original 2 VSTi's.
> I will say that if you're looking for 3rd party synths or synths to make libraries for, MPS and MSF are probably the hardest sell.


Your last sentence brings something up that is worth discussing here too.

It is one thing to have the tools you need to design the sounds you want. It is another to have plugins you can design sounds for and sell to others (or share freely - such as with collaborators).

If your market is media composers, part of the frustration is that too few of them will buy anything that isn't for Kontakt, Omnisphere or Zebra (and perhaps a few other platforms).

Halion and MSoundFactory both have free players; but that doesn't seem to matter. Most people may want new sounds; but they don't want to learn new platforms.

Soundpaint is literally free, but many aren't interested unless it can perform magic, since otherwise why not stick with what they know? (There are other reasons for reservations - the most reasonable of which is that the file format for its libraries requires a lot of storage space.)

It's all very well for me, or anyone else, to say that you can do something or other by going through two or three different applications; but that doesn't help someone whose aim is to share the end product. Unless, of course, they are using those applications to prepare samples which will be incorporated into the end product.

And then we are back to needing a hybrid synthesiser/sample player that enables you to realise your sonic ambitions. And pass them on (at a fee or otherwise) to people who want them.

If the ideal hybrid synthesiser existed, it would probably go largely untouched for these reasons. The people who want such a synth are not a sufficient market for presets for that synth.

Or, at least, that's a possibility. Or beating myself in the head with a board along with that monk video has addled me.


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## Pier (Jul 14, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> Maybe I'm just naive, inexperienced, and lacking your syncretic ambitions; but I think I just lack your idealism. I expect to be kicked in the face; so I take every kick in the belly as a blessing.


I just want Zebra or PhasePlant with a multisamples module! 😂

PhasePlant is so damn close with their unisample module it's like they are making fun of me.


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## Pier (Jul 14, 2022)

José Herring said:


> I will say that if you're looking for 3rd party synths or synths to make libraries for, MPS and MSF are probably the hardest sell.


Yeah...

OTOH with MSF end users don't need to buy it to actually use third party instruments. Not sure about MPS though.

See their docs:



> And third parties can use it to sell their instruments easily with no cost for them or for the target user. There will be a dedicated MSoundFactory installer to be provided for third parties, currently please just instruct your customers to install MSoundFactory via the universal installer on our download page.


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## Bee_Abney (Jul 14, 2022)

Pier said:


> I just want Zebra or PhasePlant with a multisamples module! 😂
> 
> PhasePlant is so damn close with their unisample module it's like they are making fun of me.


There. You've said it now. Naming the real problem is the first step on the path to acceptance!


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## Pier (Jul 14, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> There. You've said it now. Naming the real problem is the first step on the path to acceptance!


Oh I know the real problem!

It's called... _checks notes_ ... "Urs doesn't want to add samples to Zebra" or "KiloHearts won't do multisamples". Some may even call it "Bitwig won't create a rack version".


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## Bee_Abney (Jul 14, 2022)

Pier said:


> Oh I know the real problem!
> 
> It's called... _checks notes_ ... "Urs doesn't want to add samples to Zebra" or "KiloHearts won't do multisamples". Some may even call it "Bitwig won't create a rack version".


I'm... I'm not helping, am I?

You rage against the developers-that-be all you need to. I'll just be over here finding my perfect workflow in Falcon...


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## José Herring (Jul 14, 2022)

Pier said:


> Yeah...
> 
> OTOH with MSF end users don't need to buy it to actually use third party instruments. Not sure about MPS though.
> 
> See their docs:


Unless MPS opens in the free version of MSF then yes a person would need to buy MPS. Standalone it's a synth, it's not really a platform like MSF or Falcon. 

And as far as user base for MPS, I only know of one other composer that used it and I'm not even sure if he still does. Shame because the sound quality of MPS is prestine and has great analogue modeling, additive and FM capabilities. But truth be told I hardly use it any more. Not because it isn't good but because I used it so much I got sick of it and there are so many others now that I like just as well or better.


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## LatinXCombo (Jul 14, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> I feel that the so-called 'Dark Ages' (come on people, the correct term now is Very Early Middle Ages) has been insulted. I am offended on its behalf.


I prefer "Ultra-Late Roman Empire". The Byzantines were Roman, too!


Bee_Abney said:


> In a world with Halion, Falcon and MSoundFactory and a host of others, I feel we are doing rather well for hybrid synths.



Really stupid question born out of ignorance, I'm probably a bad person for even asking it, and you should probably just hit the "ignore" button on me now....but is it really a "hybrid synth" if you're loading the whole thing into a DAW?


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## Pier (Jul 14, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Shame because the sound quality of MPS is prestine and has great analogue modeling, additive and FM capabilities.


Do you know of any demo that showcases the analog modeling?


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## Nico5 (Jul 14, 2022)

LatinXCombo said:


> ... is it really a "hybrid synth" if you're loading the whole thing into a DAW?


I'm not quite sure, I understand your question quite right. 

Is your question coming from the angle of thinking about "workstation synths" rather than "hybrid synths"?


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## José Herring (Jul 14, 2022)

Pier said:


> Do you know of any demo that showcases the analog modeling?


What would you like to hear? I can do a quick 8 bars for you or so.


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## Pier (Jul 14, 2022)

José Herring said:


> What would you like to hear? I can do a quick 8 bars for you or so.


Anything really. Basses, pad sweeps, etc.

I really didn't want to put you to work and was hoping there was something online you could share


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## Bee_Abney (Jul 14, 2022)

LatinXCombo said:


> I prefer "Ultra-Late Roman Empire". The Byzantines were Roman, too!
> 
> 
> Really stupid question born out of ignorance, I'm probably a bad person for even asking it, and you should probably just hit the "ignore" button on me now....but is it really a "hybrid synth" if you're loading the whole thing into a DAW?


Ultra-late was good, but for me the peak was the post-post Roman Empire dissociation. There was a lot of good music; though the heating was rubbish.

Unless I've got it wrong, there are two main uses of the term 'hybrid synth'; it may only really be the latter one, and that's certainly the focus of Pier's, um, expression of discontent.

First, a hybrid synth is a synth with more than one method of generating sounds. So, a synth that does both additive and substractive synthesis would be hybrid.

Second, a hybrid synth is a synth that combines synthesis with sample playing; where the samples may be manipulated to greater or lesser degrees (including full-on resynthesis).

Can anyone who feels authoritative on the matter chime in on this? I'm just going on apparent usage, which I think is the best guide; but I haven't the depth and breadth of some people's experience.


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## José Herring (Jul 14, 2022)

Pier said:


> Anything really. Basses, pad sweeps, etc.
> 
> I really didn't want to put you to work and was hoping there was something online you could share


It's not a problem really. I probably have some stuff laying around that used it. I'll see if I can find it.


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## Nico5 (Jul 14, 2022)

Pier said:


> Do you know of any demo that showcases the analog modeling?


Not sure if this is what you had in mind:


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## Pier (Jul 14, 2022)

@Bee_Abney let me be very clear.

When I said "Dark ages" I didn't mean it as a historical reference.

I had The Lord of The Rings more in mind:

"The Dark Years were the long years of the Second Age when the races of Middle-earth, and especially Pier, suffered under the domination of inadequate hybrid synths."

Good lord. I'm _off topicking _my own thread. Let me show myself out.


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## doctoremmet (Jul 14, 2022)

My kids wanted to go to a restaurant. Guess which one they picked…






So now I finally understand Pier’s fixation on the Dark Age. Which REALLY should be called the pre-pre-renaissance by the way.


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## Pier (Jul 14, 2022)

Nico5 said:


> Not sure if this is what you had in mind:



Thanks!

I had already seen that one but was hoping to hear more stuff, maybe even full tracks. Melda's website has demo tracks but... hmm yeah... better avoid those.


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## Bee_Abney (Jul 14, 2022)

Pier said:


> @Bee_Abney let me be very clear.
> 
> When I said "Dark ages" I didn't mean it as a historical reference.
> 
> ...


Yeah, right. And when people say XXXXXX they are really referencing the Mandarin equivalent of the English 'um'.

Next it will be 'Some of my best friends are Dark Ages'.


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## Pier (Jul 14, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> My kids wanted to go to a restaurant. Guess which one they picked…
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'll have you know that I tested my DNA and it turns out I *DO HAVE VIKING DNA IN ME*.

I'm not even kidding 😂


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## doctoremmet (Jul 14, 2022)

I did the 23 & Me thing, because I feel good about an American company close to Google storing my entire DNA in a database. I digress.

My heritage is basically almost like yours, so I guess genetically we’re almost brothers. Which is why you can safely buy MSoundFactory. Our tastes are likely identical anyway. If you do, maybe somebody on here (Bee? José?) has one of those Melda referal codes that can render you both a little discount?


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## Pier (Jul 14, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> My heritage is basically almost like yours, so I guess genetically we’re almost brothers. Which is why you can safely buy MSoundFactory. Our tastes are likely identical anyway. If you do, maybe somebody on here (Bee? José?) has one of those Melda referal codes that can render you both a little discount?


I'd appreciate that 🙏

It's currently with 30% discount for a couple of days and I'm seriously considering it. Not sure if the discounts can be stacked though.


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## doctoremmet (Jul 14, 2022)

Also, I remember José had a thread on here about his next synth platform, either Falcon or MSF, where he posted some MPowerSynth demos that actually convinced ME to buy MSF even before he did (IIRC). The man can program a synth for sure!


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## Pier (Jul 14, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Also, I remember José had a thread on here about his next synth platform, either Falcon or MSF, where he posted some MPowerSynth demos that actually convinced ME to buy MSF even before he did (IIRC). The man can program a synth for sure!


This is the thread.

I didn't find any demos but it made a little sad because I miss @KEM in the forum.


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## Bee_Abney (Jul 14, 2022)

Pier said:


> I'd appreciate that 🙏
> 
> It's currently with 30% discount for a couple of days and I'm seriously considering it. Not sure if the discounts can be stacked though.


I've sent you my code; but if Jose sends you his, use that. I'm trying not to buy new plugins at the moment! Let's see how that goes...

My purchasing priorities are in the following order:

Headphones
New acoustic instrument
Footpedals
Sample libraries
Plugins
Food
Medicine
Clothes


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## Double Helix (Jul 14, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> My purchasing priorities are in the following order:
> . . .Footpedals


(what do you seek?)


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## Pier (Jul 14, 2022)

Melda referral discounts are only for the first purchase... :(


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## method1 (Jul 14, 2022)

If you think the Falcon / Halion GUIs are unfriendly, wait until you try melda!


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## doctoremmet (Jul 14, 2022)

method1 said:


> If you think the Falcon / Halion GUIs are unfriendly, wait until you try melda!


Myth! Learning curve: definitely. But MSF is way easier for me to navigate around in and make a cool new “hybrid” architecture than my actual desert island synth Falcon, which is more finicky. 

The cool thing about Melda: learn to navigate one plugin, and you know them all. Which comes in handy, when you in fact have them all, lol.


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## method1 (Jul 14, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Myth! Learning curve: definitely. But MSF is way easier for me to navigate around in and make a cool new “hybrid” architecture than my actual desert island synth Falcon, which is more finicky.
> 
> The cool thing about Melda: learn to navigate one plugin, and you know them all. Which comes in handy, when you in fact have them all, lol.


Easy for you to say, you're a Doctor! I barely passed grade school!


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## doctoremmet (Jul 14, 2022)

method1 said:


> Easy for you to say, you're a Doctor! I barely passed grade school!


You for sure have a point: Melda UIs are an acquired taste.


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## Pier (Jul 14, 2022)

method1 said:


> If you think the Falcon / Halion GUIs are unfriendly, wait until you try melda!


I think my main complaint with Falcon was that it is tedious.

I already own a couple of Melda plugins and they are totally horrible (aesthetically speaking) but the workflow and general structure makes sense.


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## Pier (Jul 14, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> You for sure have a point: Melda UIs are an acquired taste.


Benn Jordan is a fan:


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## Bee_Abney (Jul 14, 2022)

Double Helix said:


> (what do you seek?)


USB, multiple switches and at least one expression pedal. In time. To cover pianos (up to three pedals), dynamics and wah-style stuff.


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## José Herring (Jul 14, 2022)

Pier said:


> Anything really. Basses, pad sweeps, etc.
> 
> I really didn't want to put you to work and was hoping there was something online you could share


It's probably easier just for me to create stuff than dig around. Here's a loop of the basses. MPS is actually way better than I remember or I'm able to get more out of it. The updates seems like they updated MPS to include more of MSF engines and FX. 
First file is a llittle score I did that actually surprisingly won best score in a festival recently. It uses MPS+my modular (on the bass arp).
The next are just the bass loops I just did to get you a taste of the bass on the synth.


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## method1 (Jul 14, 2022)

Pier said:


> I think my main complaint with Falcon was that it is tedious.
> 
> I already own a couple of Melda plugins and they are totally horrible (aesthetically speaking) but the workflow and general structure makes sense.


I will bow out, my IQ is too low for this thread.

But hopefully you will get along with soundfactory so there will be someone else to produce decent content for it!

Posting this here - not for the drama that surrounded the video but to highlight what kind of cool stuff can be done with Melda.


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## Bee_Abney (Jul 14, 2022)

Pier said:


> I think my main complaint with Falcon was that it is tedious.
> 
> I already own a couple of Melda plugins and they are totally horrible (aesthetically speaking) but the workflow and general structure makes sense.


Falcon is tedious for certain aspects of modulation since it offers options that don't work, and it isn't always intuitive at what level you need to place the modulation.

Everything works a lot like loading an instrument (oscillator) and a series of effects (filters, effects). And layering those up and running them through a mix bus (global effects) and maybe an arp. Plus multis.

For this reason, I find the basic architecture very familiar. Experienced synthesists find it less so.


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## Pier (Jul 14, 2022)

José Herring said:


> It's probably easier just for me to create stuff than dig around. Here's a loop of the basses. MPS is actually way better than I remember or I'm able to get more out of it. The updates seems like they updated MPS to include more of MSF engines and FX.
> First file is a llittle score I did that actually surprisingly won best score in a festival recently. It uses MPS+my modular (on the bass arp).
> The next are just the bass loops I just did to get you a taste of the bass on the synth.


Thanks José!

Lovely score btw.


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## Bee_Abney (Jul 14, 2022)

José Herring said:


> It's probably easier just for me to create stuff than dig around. Here's a loop of the basses. MPS is actually way better than I remember or I'm able to get more out of it. The updates seems like they updated MPS to include more of MSF engines and FX.
> First file is a llittle score I did that actually surprisingly won best score in a festival recently. It uses MPS+my modular (on the bass arp).
> The next are just the bass loops I just did to get you a taste of the bass on the synth.


Those are great bass sounds, but I really loved the Rise and Fall piece. It did so much while never sounding too busy and developed and a great pace. The sounds and the music were perfectly matched.

Congratulations on the award!


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## José Herring (Jul 14, 2022)

@Pier

Here is a quick pad with Filter sweep. Have to head out of the studio but I hope this helped. It really is a good synth that has gotten better over time. Not sure why it isn't more widely known.


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## j_kranz (Jul 14, 2022)

Hybrid Synths in the dark ages? Maybe...

BUT... I think other things are starting to catch up. I've recently switched over to Bitwig and it has been AMAZING. If you're into sound design, then hands down it's the DAW to use IMO. It has things that no one else does yet to my knowledge. It has a gigantic list of modulators that can be applied to anything (even other modulators). It does automation better than most and easier. You can multiband anything, even if the plugin you want to use doesn't have any multiband capability. AND it has it's own reaktor-like utlity called The Grid, which is IMO easier to use than Reaktor, though maybe not as deep.

In case you're curious, here's a little taste (the whole video is worth a watch if you have the time):


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## Kuusniemi (Jul 14, 2022)

Personally I do like MSoundfactory quite a bit. I think it has the potential. It has it's kinks, but it has things like transition samples (legato that is) without scripting (haven't tested them). You can build complex instruments with it without writing a single line of code. I did a version of my The Bottle library for it. https://www.manmakesnoise.com/the-bottle

Here's James Spilling having a gander at the MSoundfactory version:


I've been testing those same samples in Soundpaint and I have to say there is potential there as well if/when they release a more advanced sample importer.


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## tressie5 (Jul 14, 2022)

I agree with the tediousness of Falcon in regards to this scenario: If I was to pull up an LFO to modulate a filter cutoff somewhere, I can't use that same LFO to modulate, say, a pan in the same or another module. Unless I'm in error about this.


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## Pier (Jul 14, 2022)

José Herring said:


> @Pier
> 
> Here is a quick pad with Filter sweep. Have to head out of the studio but I hope this helped. It really is a good synth that has gotten better over time. Not sure why it isn't more widely known.


Thanks again!

I'm 99% sure the UI is the reason more people don't use the Melda stuff.


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## Pier (Jul 14, 2022)

j_kranz said:


> Hybrid Synths in the dark ages? Maybe...
> 
> BUT... I think other things are starting to catch up. I've recently switched over to Bitwig and it has been AMAZING. If you're into sound design, then hands down it's the DAW to use IMO. It has things that no one else does yet to my knowledge. It has a gigantic list of modulators that can be applied to anything (even other modulators). It does automation better than most and easier. You can multiband anything, even if the plugin you want to use doesn't have any multiband capability. AND it has it's own reaktor-like utlity called The Grid, which is IMO easier to use than Reaktor, though maybe not as deep.
> 
> In case you're curious, here's a little taste (the whole video is worth a watch if you have the time):



I used Bitwig as my main DAW for some time.

As a sound design environment there's nothing like it, but I ended up selling my license because I don't think it's a good tool for writing music other than generative stuff.

Bitwig keeps pushing out cool experimental features instead of adding boring features which would make it a lot more useable. In fact if you look at the top feature requests on Bitwish it's mostly boring stuff.


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## Pier (Jul 14, 2022)

tressie5 said:


> I agree with the tediousness of Falcon in regards to this scenario: If I was to pull up an LFO to modulate a filter cutoff somewhere, I can't use that same LFO to modulate, say, a pan in the same or another module. Unless I'm in error about this.


You can, but I think the confusion might be you need to use a modulator from a "higher layer" if that makes sense.


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## rhizomusicosmos (Jul 14, 2022)

I take it that simply loading sample maps won't cut the mustard? Because I believe Reaktor can do this:









Kritikal Reaktions Part 3 - S-Layer from Twisted Tools


In this installment of Kritikal Reaktions, we explore S-Layer, a Reaktor Ensemble from Twisted Tools. As the name suggests, it’s all about layering sound.




soundbytesmag.net













tips for making your own Reaktor sample maps?


I'm just beginning to put together my own sample maps and want to get off to a good start. What is the best way to go about building your own? Any tips...




www.native-instruments.com


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## Nico5 (Jul 14, 2022)

Pier said:


> I'm 99% sure the UI is the reason more people don't use the Melda stuff.


Agreed!

However, in MSoundFactory (as well as in MXXX), one can build a "Device" with a custom surface.

For example some time ago, I built a little simple multi-sample (5 velocity layered samples every 4 semitones across a 61 key range) synth with amplification and envelope sections followed by a simple, but high quality (because Melda!) FX chain.

One of the views in fully playable deep diving "Edit " mode looks like this:






And the custom GUI "device" I built for it, currently looks like this:


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## Bee_Abney (Jul 14, 2022)

Nico5 said:


> Agreed!
> 
> However, in MSoundFactory (as well as in MXXX), one can build a "Device" with a custom surface.
> 
> ...


Very nice.


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## Nico5 (Jul 14, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> Very nice.


🙏


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## José Herring (Jul 14, 2022)

Nico5 said:


> Agreed!
> 
> However, in MSoundFactory (as well as in MXXX), one can build a "Device" with a custom surface.
> 
> ...


Looks great.


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## Bee_Abney (Jul 14, 2022)

José Herring said:


> @Pier
> 
> Here is a quick pad with Filter sweep. Have to head out of the studio but I hope this helped. It really is a good synth that has gotten better over time. Not sure why it isn't more widely known.


Oooh, so pretty, so dystopian; like a flying car landing in desert.


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## Pier (Oct 13, 2022)

Could VPS Avenger 2 (not released yet) be the hybrid synth that brings us out of the dark ages?

This is a teaser of making a single preset with multiple sample-based oscillators combined with some sample-based drum machine with its own sequencer.



Edit:

From what I've seen in the Avenger manual it's possible to import a folder with samples to create a multisample (the notes are defined in the filenames). It doesn't seem very sophisticated though. AFAIK there are no round robins and no velocity layers.


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## Alchemedia (Oct 13, 2022)

Pier said:


> Could VPS Avenger 2 (not released yet) be the hybrid synth that brings us out of the dark ages?
> 
> This is a teaser of making a single preset with multiple sample-based oscillators combined with some sample-based drum machine with its own sequencer.
> 
> ...



Perhaps when v2.0 is released I'll retrieve Avenger from my VST dustbin to check it out.


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## Bee_Abney (Oct 14, 2022)

Hmm.

Dark Ages = not (Zebra does have multisample import)
Avenger 2 =/= Zebra does have multisample import

Mind you, with all these excellent hybrid synths, the Dark Ages has never been so bright.


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## The Gost (Oct 14, 2022)

It's also a bit a question of fashion, what was not accepted as music 10 years ago may become an obligation 10 years later, if tomorrow all the great composers of film music decide to only make music with koto, flute, bass clarinet, onde Martenot and accordion, 90 percent of artistic directors will no longer want hybrid synths.


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## JasonSchoepfer (Oct 23, 2022)

I dunno- I’m liking the 4 zones I can do in a single Omnisphere patch using bias to isolate each sample to a specific keyrange. So many new ideas with this that I have yet to touch and are downright exciting to me.


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## tressie5 (Oct 23, 2022)

I like Pigments for the wealth of things it can do, including importing samples which makes its sound palette endless. Its three shortcomings, however, prevent it from being the holy grail of hybrid synths. While the sequencer/arpeggiator is full featured, it lacks ratcheting. Pigments freezes Cubase every so often. And with some patches, using just two notes makes my laptop cry for mercy.


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## Pier (Oct 23, 2022)

tressie5 said:


> I like Pigments for the wealth of things it can do, including importing samples which makes its sound palette endless. Its three shortcomings, however, prevent it from being the holy grail of hybrid synths. While the sequencer/arpeggiator is full featured, it lacks ratcheting. Pigments freezes Cubase every so often. And with some patches, using just two notes makes my laptop cry for mercy.


Yeah the sequencer could be better. The probability and polyrhythm stuff is fun but why doesn't it allow other note values than the rate clock one? Why no secondary mod other than velocity?

It's also a CPU hog and personally I don't think that's justified by the results. I don't know, but it feels it's just incredibly unoptimized. The new Arturia MS20V also consumes a lot of CPU but it's a sophisticated analog emulation.

It has some cool tricks like audio rate modulation between the generators (when using the wavetable) but all in all it's very simplistic in its routing and features.


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## tressie5 (Oct 23, 2022)

I haven't look at the spec requirements, but I'm guess that to run Pigments or the upcoming Avenger 2 without hiccups, I'd have to spring for a gaming laptop (I7/9, Ryzen 7/9 / 32/64gb RAM, 6gb GPU, 1TB PCIe SSD, etc).


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## Pier (Oct 23, 2022)

I think Avenger and Pigments are single threaded. You really shouldn't need an i7/i9. Any modern CPU with good single core speed should be enough at least to run a single instance.


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## Bee_Abney (Nov 17, 2022)

ANA 2


Completely redesigned from the ground up, ANA returns to the scene stronger than ever Our highly anticipated launch is finally here! We have spent many thousands of hours rebuilding and redesign...




www.sonicacademy.com








Sonic Academy's ANA 2.5 now has multi-sampling.

Currently 40% off.


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## Crowe (Nov 17, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> ANA 2
> 
> 
> Completely redesigned from the ground up, ANA returns to the scene stronger than ever Our highly anticipated launch is finally here! We have spent many thousands of hours rebuilding and redesign...
> ...



What does that even mean though? It doesn't seem to support samples, just wavetables. What is multisampling in this regard?


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## danielh02 (Nov 17, 2022)

Crowe said:


> What does that even mean though? It doesn't seem to support samples, just wavetables. What is multisampling in this regard



There's a video here:


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## ZeroZero (Nov 17, 2022)

There are two big things coming to our world. First MIDI 2 - quite why it has not yet arrived I am not sure, but as MIDI 1 is so deeply enmeshed into instruments and sequencers, that it will be a total rewire job if done well. (MIDI 2 is backward compatible)

Second AI. No one, including me and Musk, knows where this is going, but there are developments underway and this will hit synths. Mr Eric Persing has a habit of lying low for a few years and then WHAMMO! 

I know nothing of course. My ex told me that.


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## JasonSchoepfer (Nov 17, 2022)

ZeroZero said:


> There are two big things coming to our world. First MIDI 2 - quite why it has not yet arrived I am not sure, but as MIDI 1 is so deeply enmeshed into instruments and sequencers, that it will be a total rewire job if done well. (MIDI 2 is backward compatible)
> 
> Second AI. No one, including me and Musk, knows where this is going, but there are developments underway and this will hit synths. Mr Eric Persing has a habit of lying low for a few years and then WHAMMO!
> 
> I know nothing of course. My ex told me that.


I would love to see an AI oscillator where you tell it what sound you want it to be. Then design the final sounds around that.


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## Bee_Abney (Nov 17, 2022)

JasonSchoepfer said:


> I would love to see an AI oscillator where you tell it what sound you want it to be. Then design the final sounds around that.


Do you mean like a dial or drop down menu where you select a waveform, table or sample, or partials configuration? Then you'd only have to set the filters, maybe some modulation and add some effects.


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## JasonSchoepfer (Nov 17, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> Do you mean like a dial or drop down menu where you select a waveform, table or sample, or partials configuration? Then you'd only have to set the filters, maybe some modulation and add some effects.


No, I would love to have a text box where I type out the description of the sound I want. Then have it generate a custom waveform that I could then design around. I think that would be amazing as it would let me try to express the sounds I hear in my head. 

A saw tooth with a dark wolf howling and kid screaming evolving slowly to an angelic choir and then back again.


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## ZeroZero (Nov 17, 2022)

The current method of sampling to me is like taking 2 dimensional pictures, one at a time, then stacking them usually only a few - probably under 10. Imagine taking a few photos of a person and then stacking them, not likely to get a living likeness. I know we have modelling and this is getting better, but someohw we need movement - three dimensional movement, probably a hardware device to do this too. 
Imagine simply hitting a drum with a stick. Leaving aside issues of the room size, _every _hit is totally unique, depending on the exact location of the hit and whether the drum is still vibrating from the former hit. Humans make use of this instinctively asking them to describe what they have done nad they may not even know. This is a simple example, a stringed instrument for example is much more complex


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## Bee_Abney (Nov 17, 2022)

JasonSchoepfer said:


> No, I would love to have a text box where I type out the description of the sound I want. Then have it generate a custom waveform that I could then design around. I think that would be amazing as it would let me try to express the sounds I hear in my head.
> 
> A saw tooth with a dark wolf howling and kid screaming evolving slowly to an angelic choir and then back again.


Sir, you have excellent taste!


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## zzz00m (Nov 17, 2022)

Crowe said:


> What does that even mean though? It doesn't seem to support samples, just wavetables. What is multisampling in this regard?


Maybe the Osc 4-8 Samplers? Osc 1-3 are for Wavetables.


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## Crowe (Nov 17, 2022)

zzz00m said:


> Maybe the Osc 4-8 Samplers? Osc 1-3 are for Wavetables.


Ah, couldn't find that info on the page. Maybe I have become blind. Thanks!


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## Bee_Abney (Nov 17, 2022)

Rob Papen BLUE-3 virtual synthesizer


BLUE-3 is a Virtual Synthesizer for PC and Mac




www.robpapen.com





Currently on an introductory price, the new version of Blue can now import up to six samples per patch.


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## elucid (Nov 17, 2022)

I’ve always wondered what Blue was all about. I‘ve heard people raving about it for years but had never followed up what the fuss was about.

And listening to the demo now I confess I’m not drawn to it at all. It’s highly capable but nothing makes me sit up and pay attention.

YMMV, of course.


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## Pier (Nov 17, 2022)

elucid said:


> And listening to the demo now I confess I’m not drawn to it at all. It’s highly capable but nothing makes me sit up and pay attention.


I downloaded the Blue demo the other day. Other than an incredibly buggy GUI the sound was completely sterile. I've never heard anything from a Rob Papen synth that I liked honestly.


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## Bee_Abney (Nov 17, 2022)

Pier said:


> I downloaded the Blue demo the other day. Other than an incredibly buggy GUI the sound was completely sterile. I've never heard anything from a Rob Papen synth that I liked honestly.


That's a shame.


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