# How musicians and creators survive in the age of free



## germancomponist (Nov 11, 2013)

[video width=500 height=300]http://player.vimeo.com/video/58809695[/video]

A good thing: Groups representing Hollywood studios, music labels and Internet service providers are supporting a push to educate elementary school students about the evils of piracy and the value of copyrights.

http://www.latimes.com/entertainmen...ucation-20131111,0,680616.story#axzz2kIEjlvHb


----------



## Ciaran Birch (Nov 11, 2013)

Thanks for posting that video Gunther. Although I feel a little despondent after watching that. :(


----------



## germancomponist (Nov 11, 2013)

http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/unsound


----------



## RiffWraith (Nov 11, 2013)

Finally, someone is trying to do the right thing here. I only wish public schools would do this as well.


----------



## germancomponist (Nov 11, 2013)

Agreed, Jeffrey!


----------



## Darthmorphling (Nov 11, 2013)

RiffWraith @ Mon Nov 11 said:


> Finally, someone is trying to do the right thing here. I only wish public schools would do this as well.



So in an age where education is being villified in America, I am supposed to take time away from teaching the standards, being a counselor, mediator, anti tobacco, drugs and alcohol, self esteem builder, to educate kids on how piracy is evil?

Frankly schools are being forced to teach way to many values already. This is the job of parents.

Now when students tell me that they download stuff for free, I do tell them it is not only illegal, but hurts honest musicians.


----------



## TheUnfinished (Nov 11, 2013)

The guy who came round to buy my Virus KC today, saw Cubase box by my studio desk and proudly said "I never pay for software."

:(


----------



## RiffWraith (Nov 11, 2013)

Darthmorphling @ Tue Nov 12 said:


> So in an age where education is being villified in America, I am supposed to take time away from teaching the standards, being a counselor, mediator, anti tobacco, drugs and alcohol, self esteem builder, to educate kids on how piracy is evil?



Teaching that piracy is evil wouldn't be a main part of the curriculum (sp?) - it would be a small addition to it. You almost make it sound as if everything you teach is an absolute necessity. I am sure most of it is, but if I think back to my elementary school days, I can think of more than one thing that can be replaced with a lesson or two on piracy.


----------



## RiffWraith (Nov 11, 2013)

TheUnfinished @ Tue Nov 12 said:


> The guy who came round to buy my Virus KC today, saw Cubase box by my studio desk and proudly said "I never pay for software."
> 
> :(



Did he get hit over the head with said Virus KC? If not, why?


----------



## wst3 (Nov 11, 2013)

cause that's a terrible thing to do the poor synth, but I'd have thrown the bum out without selling it to him.

And while I do not envy teachers trying to fit yet another thing into the day, and something that some of the parents will find objectionable to boot, I think education is the key.


----------



## Darthmorphling (Nov 11, 2013)

RiffWraith @ Mon Nov 11 said:


> Darthmorphling @ Tue Nov 12 said:
> 
> 
> > So in an age where education is being villified in America, I am supposed to take time away from teaching the standards, being a counselor, mediator, anti tobacco, drugs and alcohol, self esteem builder, to educate kids on how piracy is evil?
> ...



The one thing taught in my classroom that I would be happy to get rid of is DARE. It really is a dog and pony show for city leaders and the program. Some useful information, but the reality is it does not work, especially for kids whose parents do drugs. Anti piracy education would fall on the same deaf ears. Parents who prioritize parenting/ talking to kids will have kids who do the right thing.

Education is in a far different place than when we were kids. If I barely have time to teach art, anti piracy curriculum will be way below that in priority.

Again, when kids tell me their uncle gets all the movies from the internet, I do explain to them how it really does harm.


----------



## chimuelo (Nov 11, 2013)

Gigastudio library theft pretty much showed us how nameless faceless people can act when oppurtunity arises.
To let people keep stealing in this day and age is the fault of the creator.

Gigastudio imploded from a lack of revenue.
You could see guys buying LSAD and then dl'ing it to their HDDs, then reselling at 50%.

That pretty much set the stage. And teaching kids how terrible this is, is a waste of resources too.

Teach the content creators how to protect and prosecute.

We could always get the NSA to share it's data base then sue the thieves like the RIAA did to that gal for 80 large a few years back.


----------



## tcollins (Nov 11, 2013)

chimuelo @ Mon Nov 11 said:


> Gigastudio library theft pretty much showed us how nameless faceless people can act when oppurtunity arises.
> To let people keep stealing in this day and age is the fault of the creator.



I agree. Software developers owe it to their honest customers to at least put up a good fight. Take-down services cost money, but they are effective enough to cause most people to give up after trying unsuccessfully to find an active download link and just buy it from the creator. If we all did this, it would be hard to find pirated libraries. It does work! 

The other side of this is that developer's EULAs should be reasonable and easy to understand, and copy protection shouldn't be a hassle.


----------



## chimuelo (Nov 11, 2013)

I bought Scope DSP cards after hearing the Grammy Zimmer got using them with a Gigastudio DAW. These Giga/Scope DAWs were way ahead of the times back in 2000, and are still my weapon of choice for Modular, Effects and Mixing.
In all of these years they have never been cracked or pirated once.
It's just the right thing to do for those who play by the rules.
Best of all no dongle RAID sticks or their new and unimproved iLoks.

So while I despise the pirates and whiners for free stuff at KVR, I still think the developer owes it to his user base to provide these protection schemes.
Otherwise the faceless nameless thousands will be judged later by God....sorry...I meant the NSA database.


----------



## KEnK (Nov 11, 2013)

Sorry-

But I think this idea stinks Big Time!
My best friend is an Oakland Public School teacher-
I teach guitar all the time to both kids and adults-
The public school system is a disaster in the US right now.

Too many kids are barely literate.

There's zero time for this kind of Corporate Propaganda in the schools right now.
Why not have Chevron, Walmart and McKFC go into the classroom
to teach the little kids to be good consumers?

This idea is extremely offensive to me-
And I'm not surprised that the RIAA and the MPAA are behind it.

You wanna fix the piracy problem?
Fine, figure it out-

But these Mega Corporations, 
(who have never been a friend to the independent artist)
have no place in a classroom.

This will not fly in California, I promise you.

This is the most offensive idea I've seen in a long time.

There's no difference between Walmart and the RIAA.
Keep them the hell away from my kids.

WTF!?

rant over
thanks for listening

k


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna (Nov 12, 2013)

There's a lot of economic aspects to this battle that need to be accounted for (esp in the States). 

That is the decline of the middle class. People will pay for convenience (downloading a clean file at high speeds from a reputable dealer) over piracy if they have the money.

At this time, most do not have this luxury.


----------



## R.Cato (Nov 12, 2013)

TheUnfinished @ Mon Nov 11 said:


> The guy who came round to buy my Virus KC today, saw Cubase box by my studio desk and proudly said "I never pay for software."
> 
> :(



I hope you kicked him out.... that's just ridiculous. (o)


----------



## germancomponist (Nov 12, 2013)

Where can I download my meal for free?


----------



## KEnK (Nov 12, 2013)

I get your point Gunther,
but it doesn't change mine.

Public Schools are not meant to serve the whims of Corporations.

k


----------



## AC986 (Nov 12, 2013)

KEnK @ Tue Nov 12 said:


> I get your point Gunther,
> but it doesn't change mine.
> 
> Public Schools are not meant to serve the whims of Corporations.
> ...



You are right. The same here in the UK. The English have become experts in mediocrity and the art of eating just about anything. The literacy here is a disgrace. The word 'like' has pervaded just about everything and the levels of intelligence have just now reached a head because the powers that be have told the government and teachers unions in no uncertain terms that examination levels now mean jack shit and future proofing applications for jobs will be taken by the company itself ( although this has been going on for a while now). Under the last socialist government, it was brilliantly decided that all children are equal and all grades will be more or less the same, regardless of whether the child was a genius or a fucking moron. 

You figure it out.


----------



## chimuelo (Nov 12, 2013)

Wealthy anti wealth redistributors have little chance of winning elections unless they drop the voting age, and offer rivers of honey.
Keeping kids indoctrinated in this endless cycle of medicrity started back when grading on the curve made adults feel warm and fuzzy while demotivating children.

But more money will fix this, that's the big Union rally call.

If you see just how little the teachers kept from their salaries and how much went to the wealthy redistirubutors campaigns, it explains why children rebel from such mamby pamby make believe day care centers.

We use to have an auditorium of classically trained pianists audition for the high school talent show, now they look to find a few and beg them to participate.
Detroit, then Chicago, but we'll teach them Spanish now so they can get a job in California..... 0oD


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 12, 2013)

KEnK, there was an editorial in today's LA Times making exactly the same point.

I'm inclined to agree.


----------



## mark812 (Nov 12, 2013)

KEnK @ Tue Nov 12 said:


> Public Schools are not meant to serve the whims of Corporations.
> 
> k



Exactly.


----------



## chimuelo (Nov 12, 2013)

Especially the Department Of Education Union/Corporation.
They really hate Charter and Private Schools, competition reveals their theft of tax payers dollars, yet we see their children go there. >8o 

As a matter of fact I'd love to hear what politicians if any particpates in the ACA Act, or sends their kids to sit amongst these commoners children.


----------



## AC986 (Nov 13, 2013)

chimuelo @ Tue Nov 12 said:


> Especially the Department Of Education Union/Corporation.
> They really hate Charter and Private Schools, competition reveals their theft of tax payers dollars, yet we see their children go there. >8o
> 
> As a matter of fact I'd love to hear what politicians if any particpates in the ACA Act, or sends their kids to sit amongst these commoners children.



Yeah that's it.

Here in the early, mid 1970s the socialist government decided that they would totally trash all Grammar and Secondary Modern schools. The functions of these two types of secondary education establishments were pretty much the basis of Secondary Grammar (academic) and Secondary Modern (practical). And it worked well. But the socialists couldn't stand that so they decided that a total fucking imbecile that would disrupt his own parents tv and sleep time and kill the cat, if he could, should have 'the same opportunity' in the same close environment of the classroom, as a kid with an IQ of 140. That just isn't going to work.

I missed all of that having left school in 1969 but I look at it now and am pleased to see that some Grammar schools survived. But not many. They should start by bringing that system back in. And incidentally, most Sec Modern kids that I knew, finished up doing very well, better than a lot of Grammar kids.


----------



## KEnK (Nov 13, 2013)

A little OT but we are talking a bit about private vs public schools.

I have 2 friends who teach in the Montesori and Waldorph systems.
These are both excellent.
Both use very "hands on" methods and have a low teacher/student ratio.
The public system isn't funded enough to be able to this.
Neither of these systems would allow "Corporate Training" in the classroom.

As to "Charter Schools", I got a bad initial hit on that concept.
The Bush Administration was attempting to give up entirely on public education 
and "privatize" it. 
(Much like the Social Security debacle.)
Consequently I remain very skeptical about the nature of Charter Schools.

@ Nick-
Thanks for the heads up on the LA Times article.
I read it, but didn't find it nearly suspicious enough about the concept of Corporate Propaganda being allowed in schools.

I am glad to see quite a few people also not liking this idea. :mrgreen: 

k


----------



## NYC Composer (Nov 16, 2013)

Interestingly, a lower teacher student ratio is statistically meaningless until it hits a fairly high or low crossover point, or so some fairly recent studies indicate. I don't remember the exact figures, but it was something like under 15 students per teacher or over 25 students per teacher were the thresholds. I read these figures again recently in a book by Malcolm Gladwell, but I had seen them before in the studies when they were originally published.


----------



## AC986 (Nov 16, 2013)

Above. That's good that you're set and your friend too. Well done.

But I think that's a fucking poor attitude. Put your tracks up so I can steal them, for instance. Then I'd be set.


----------



## KEnK (Nov 16, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Sat Nov 16 said:


> Interestingly, a lower teacher student ratio is statistically meaningless until it hits a fairly high or low crossover point, or so some fairly recent studies indicate. I don't remember the exact figures, but it was something like under 15 students per teacher or over 25 students per teacher were the thresholds. I read these figures again recently in a book by Malcolm Gladwell, but I had seen them before in the studies when they were originally published.


Not sure what you mean by "statistically meaningless" here.
It not meaningless to the students who have the lower threshold.
I do agree w/ those numbers though.

k


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Nov 16, 2013)

Public schools, no. Morality is not their bailiwick. Churches, synagogues, mosques etc.? You betcha.


----------



## Darthmorphling (Nov 16, 2013)

KEnK @ Sat Nov 16 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sat Nov 16 said:
> 
> 
> > Interestingly, a lower teacher student ratio is statistically meaningless until it hits a fairly high or low crossover point, or so some fairly recent studies indicate. I don't remember the exact figures, but it was something like under 15 students per teacher or over 25 students per teacher were the thresholds. I read these figures again recently in a book by Malcolm Gladwell, but I had seen them before in the studies when they were originally published.
> ...



It's not just numbers but demographics. I have worked in two schools over the past 16 years teaching 4th and 5th grade. They are on the same street and about two miles apart, but they couldn't be more different. The first is a bilingual magnet and the conventional classes are filled with mostly low income students. I had a higher percentage of behavior problems at that school. The bilingual students were the most respectful kids I have taught, but the language barrier presented a whole other set of challenges.

When I transferred to the other school it was largely middle class and the behavior problems were significantly lower. I also constantly had higher test score while teaching the same curriculum. Since a lot of the families in the neighborhood lost their homes, investors bought them up and the result is a lot of renters and high turnover in student population. Behavior problems are on the rise and it is becoming more of a challenge to keep test scores up.

Education in this country has a whole slew of problems and there is no easy solution. The one constant to kids success are parents who expect their kids to learn.


----------



## wst3 (Nov 16, 2013)

tekkentool @ Sat Nov 16 said:


> Piracy is a deeper issue than *IT'S STEALING!* and you don't do a service to discourse on how to negate the bad effects by only looking at it from the one angle.



No... justifying piracy because you were 12 years old is pure BS... you stole from someone else that was trying to make a living selling their intellectual property.

Piracy is stealing. If you don't have the money to purchase the license then either get a job and earn the money, or find an alternative that you can afford.

What a lame pissant excuse!!!!!

And I'm not sorry if that sounds harsh. I worked a LOT of crappy jobs as a kid to earn enough money to buy my first real electric guitar. Are you telling me that if I had simpy stolen someone's electric guitar I could have been more successful and sooner? Is that really the secret to success? Are you OK with that? (And I was not the only kid that mucked stalls and made sandwiches and took care of pets and whatever - there was one kid in my town who had parents that just bought him everything he needed, everyone else earned it!)

The fact is that an awful lot of developers do offer student discounts that are insanely generous. This practice goes back to the days when DEC and other computer manufacturers all but gave systems to colleges in the hopes that the graduates would go out into the world as proponents of that manufacturer. And it worked pretty well, and it is not lost on software developers.

And the worst part of the lame "I couldn't afford it" excuse for stealing is that it muddies the waters so that we can't have a serious debate about how to stem the problem of piracy.


----------



## germancomponist (Nov 16, 2013)

If someone steals food because he/she otherwise would die of starvation, then I have no problem with stealing.


----------



## Arbee (Nov 16, 2013)

tekkentool @ Sat Nov 16 said:


> If I had have been a good little consumer at 12 indoctrinated by corporate propaganda in school I probably wouldn't be a musician now.
> 
> Likewise with my friend who's a graphic designer began with a pirated copy of Photoshop when he was about the same age.
> 
> I can't really shit on piracy because I know it'd probably be unlikely that I'd be a musician right now without it.


Save me, I think I need a bucket to throw up in at this point. Sorry for being so blunt, but really. The number of ways people try to rationalise stealing as being OK is totally beyond me. "Corporate propaganda"?! - have you read the other current thread on 9V audio? It's easy I guess to think of "corporates" as not being "real people". Aren't student discounts good enough?

I know, we go around and around on this. And we're not talking about stealing food here, we're talking about discretionary purchases that might take a few cars to wash or lawns to mow in order to get started. But wait a minute, I can just get it for nothing and save myself the effort, way to go!


.


----------



## Darthmorphling (Nov 16, 2013)

germancomponist @ Sat Nov 16 said:


> If someone steals food because he/she otherwise would die of starvation, then I have no problem with stealing.



Theft is theft no matter the reason. Is it ok to steal physical items to sell so you can buy food?


----------



## germancomponist (Nov 16, 2013)

Darthmorphling @ Sat Nov 16 said:


> germancomponist @ Sat Nov 16 said:
> 
> 
> > If someone steals food because he/she otherwise would die of starvation, then I have no problem with stealing.
> ...



This for sure is not ok and a very bad example to compare with what I said.

When someone has no job, no money e.t.c. and steals, for example, in a supermarket an apple, a bread..... . I would have not a problem with this... .


----------



## chimuelo (Nov 16, 2013)

My wife and I remembered how we slept on floors and couches during our modern day Pioneering when we left back east to make it in LA.
When we were in Vegas I stole everything to take care of my family until we got employment, which was only 2 weeks.
But last year we were reminiscing and patting oursleves on the backs about how far we came from nothing and how grateful/lucky we were.

So I said let's go steal a meal for free like we use to do just to break the monotony.
So we slipped into to see Thor for free, then went around back to the employees cafeteria and got Prime Rib and a Rack of Lamb.

It felt really good and I was rewarded when we got home. 
Sometimes, free is good.

And we loved Thor as it reminded us of the other stupid movies we liked as kids.
But I do feel guilty knowing that a few bucks was taken from the Composers pockets.........NOT.


----------



## Darthmorphling (Nov 16, 2013)

germancomponist @ Sat Nov 16 said:


> Darthmorphling @ Sat Nov 16 said:
> 
> 
> > germancomponist @ Sat Nov 16 said:
> ...



So if someone has no money or job they can steal software/music? You cant 
justify one while dismissing the other.

If you are in a country with a supermarket then you can qualify for aid and get food that way.


----------



## germancomponist (Nov 16, 2013)

Darthmorphling @ Sat Nov 16 said:


> germancomponist @ Sat Nov 16 said:
> 
> 
> > Darthmorphling @ Sat Nov 16 said:
> ...



You do not see or want to see the difference ....? For me it's a big difference if someone steals not to starve, or if someone steals things for other purposes!

Have you ever gone hungry?


----------



## Arbee (Nov 16, 2013)

chimuelo @ Sun Nov 17 said:


> My wife and I remembered how we slept on floors and couches during our modern day Pioneering when we left back east to make it in LA.
> When we were in Vegas I stole everything to take care of my family until we got employment, which was only 2 weeks.
> But last year we were reminiscing and patting oursleves on the backs about how far we came from nothing and how grateful/lucky we were.
> 
> ...


OK, now you're just trying to wind us up =o 

Success that requires stealing to get started is no success at all.

.


----------



## Darthmorphling (Nov 16, 2013)

germancomponist @ Sat Nov 16 said:


> Darthmorphling @ Sat Nov 16 said:
> 
> 
> > germancomponist @ Sat Nov 16 said:
> ...



I do see the difference. You are saying it is ok to steal food if you are starving. You say it is in not the same thing to steal other physical items to sell so you could buy food. In both instances you are doing this for food and in both instances someone else paid for the physical items being stolen. If you find one wrong then you have to find both wrong. 

It just seems strange to me that stealing food is deemed ok but don't steal my non physical music/software that exists in bits. And this not me condoning piracy either.


----------



## KEnK (Nov 16, 2013)

Arbee @ Sat Nov 16 said:


> Success that requires stealing to get started is no success at all.


That's a nice fantasy but the real world offers a very different lesson in that regard.

btw- The "Corporate Propaganda" I refereed to has to do with 
Large Corporations insinuating their way into a Child's Classroom 
to Teach them to be Good Consumers.

That's what this thread was originally about.
Now it's become the usual piracy thread.

k


----------



## NYC Composer (Nov 17, 2013)

If you illegally download and/ or use commercial software you didn't pay for, you have committed a crime, at least in my country. You don't like the word "theft"? Make up your own, but parsing the issue in terms of business models or rationale that's convenient to you doesn't obviate the repugnant nature of it to many people, nor obviate the illegality.

As to not being able to stop it, we can't stop rape, war, large scale corruption, poverty or genocide either. Strangely, some people keep trying regardless of the uselessness of their efforts. Morons, eh? They should grow up and accept reality.


----------



## wst3 (Nov 18, 2013)

well said Larry... thanks!


----------



## dpasdernick (Nov 18, 2013)

Piracy is a problem but there's another reality. The tools that we buy based on places like this forum make it so easy for someone to create music. Project Sam sells Orchestra Essentials as the "essence of film scoring". Even without piracy any person with some piano lessons could throw down a thousand bucks and crank out some tunes. And you can put your creations on soundcloud, or Amazon, or Itunes, or Youtube and be the next big thing. Maybe... The point is there are too many people creating and that waters down everything. It used to cost thousands of dollars to record a song and then you submitted it to a gate keeper (the A&R guy at a record company) and he or she would say yes or no. Now there are no gate keepers. Everything is fair game. And we are drowning in content. Most of it sh*t.

I spend my time writing and crafting my "sh*t". Put my stuff on Amazon and Youtube and get 100 hits. Somebody cranks out the 20th century fox theme on a recorder (funny as hell BTW) and gets 5 million hits. What is good anymore? Same thing with movies. People made Paranormal for 14k and it went huge. But these days everybody and their dog have enough potential on their IPAD to create compelling "art".

I honestly feel that Pandora's box has been opened and we are never going back. Some of us will get lucky but it will be a lot more work and way less fame and fortune. I see the future of film scoring as a talented guy with a bunch of software hungry enough to do it for peanuts. I see the future of pop music as put out your own stuff, hope it sticks, and then build your brand through touring and corporate sponsorship as you can't make a living solely off the music. Sure there will be exceptions but money is driving everything and if you can put out a commercial with a $50 needle drop track why would anyone pay one of us $5k, or even $500?

I hope I'm wrong but I don't think so. The golden age of the "middle-class" musician is behind us. 

2 cents...


----------



## rayinstirling (Nov 22, 2013)

Quantity not quality ???

http://www.proudmusiclibrary.com/en/home/?curency=USD


----------

