# Tempo changes (changes in time signature) for added drama



## PeterN (Aug 5, 2020)

Among all tutorials Ive seen, I cant think of a single one that shows some magic tricks in time signature changing. I wonder if there is any secret trick, where you have a, say, 4/4 then it switches to 6/8 then to 3/4, then 2/2 and back to 4/4 ...and where the chorus kicks in with full effect smashing out in full stereo. Ive seen most of Vertas masterclasses, Evenant, just about every little tutorial online, but havent come across this one single time. Now Im doing this by ear by changing tempo, but can anyone think of any time signature trick for building a climax? I could imagine there could be some trick in advanced orchestration classes, anyone who has done them, would you mind share some light on this.

Btw, Beatles experimemented with this in A Day in Life, now I wish I could give more examples, but cant think of any at the moment. And the experiment Beatles did, is not particularly good.


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## PeterN (Aug 5, 2020)

Check out this, very interesting, and Seal wins the golden trophy.


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## JohnG (Aug 5, 2020)

Hi Peter,

Run to Omni Publishing (figuratively; it's online) and get Jerry Goldsmith's score for "Total Recall." JG is constantly changing metre

Or you can go here and see what J. Williams does:


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## PeterN (Aug 5, 2020)

Gene Pool said:


> Are you talking about metric modulation? If so, Eliot Carter probably experimented with it more than just about anyone. _Saëta_, _Canaries_, and _March_ from his _8 Pieces for 4 Timpani_ has a good deal of that. Other than that I'm vague on what you're specifically looking for.



Thanks for that. Well, those were timpani. They were entertaining to some degree, but that was only timpani. I suspect that cant to used for full orchestra without an extremely modernistic touch to it. If you to listen Beatles "All you need is love", it goes 4/4 nothing you can do that cant be done 3/4 (tattadaa countermelody) then back 4/4 nothing you can sing that cant be sung 3/4 (tattadaa countermelody). You see the time signature changes there. Ive seen a Williams score change time signature in the most amazing ways, but never come across a single "trick" here. How on earth did he do that without you even realized time signature kept changing. Even I wonder if those time signature changes have been changed post composition and according to tempo changes the orchestra conductor did.

To get to the point I would like to have someone say, yea, you build a climax from (ex.) Cm, make it 4/4 and narrow stereo field, then you switch to 6/4 change the chord to E, and the ostinato comes in, then you change to 5/4 switch chord 4 up, and the horn blows a counter melody, then you make 7/8 and make the chord 3 more up, while woodwinds do thrills and THEN THE CHORUS KICKS IN IN FULL WIDE STEREO go back to 4/4 here.

Get it?


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## PeterN (Aug 5, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Hi Peter,
> 
> Run to Omni Publishing (figuratively; it's online) and get Jerry Goldsmith's score for "Total Recall." JG is constantly changing metre
> 
> Or you can go here and see what J. Williams does:




Thanks for this John, this needs a lot of analysing. Williams knows how to do this stuff, (or maybe he just copied the tricks) he seems the only one who seems to have collected a plethora on tricks in changing time signature. And you hardly realise it, he does it so smoothly. I will comment on this more later, a quick analysis is not possible on this one.


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## PeterN (Aug 5, 2020)

Gene Pool said:


> Peter, metric modulation is useful regardless of style. Carter's use of it (and everything else in those examples) is just more complex, and happens to be scored for timpani, but that's not relevant to the concept. In short, metric modulation is a fairly common "trick" to change meters smoothly, with some sort of rhythmic value or grouping common between the two.
> 
> As for JW, his meters are of course to meet picture. He follows the Stravinsky model (_The Rite of Spring_) quite a bit. Without getting too much into the weeds, some Stravinsky techniques that JW uses are:
> 
> ...



Hey, that was a great answer. And it makes sense. I am particularly interested in that "a certain element of the pulse, if there is one, remains constant throughout the meter changes of a given passage", bcs it can create an interesting bridge. It would be great to see some common trick here. I havent come across any in any tutorial. Stravinsky you say, fair enough, will smell that way. I think John Williams in "Across the stars" have several examples, at least I recall it changes time signature several times, but theres some pulse there behind keeping it in pace. It never goes surreal or modernistic.

What I meant by the stereo field has nothing to do with this, it was more the imagination part to enchance the drama. You change time signature, narrow stereo field, all to prepare for the grand chorus. Then after the time signature "trick" chorus blasts in, in the original time signature but also in full wide stereo. It was just some imagination here to add plugin effects there too with a "time signature trick" - which Im still chasing.


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## PeterN (Aug 13, 2020)

Guys, check out Wuthering Heights by Kate Bush. Try to hold on to time signature, key of song, and just the general modulation. 

DID SHE REALLY COMPOSE THIS? It is genius, more genius than anythin by John Williams. Its a true masterpiece. And forgotten. What a shame. If she composed it we can say there is an enourmous potential in women composers.


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## PeterN (Aug 14, 2020)

Everything indicates she is the composer and there is no ghostwriter around. Nobody helped her? Just a 19 year old girl did this? In 1978? And that voice and video?

Kate bush is a Goddess.


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## Locks (Aug 14, 2020)

If I recall correctly the opening to "The White Room" by Cream is in 5/4 before moving back into 4/4. Makes it much more interesting to listen to.


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## Ashermusic (Aug 14, 2020)

PeterN said:


> Among all tutorials Ive seen, I cant think of a single one that shows some magic tricks in time signature changing. I wonder if there is any secret trick, where you have a, say, 4/4 then it switches to 6/8 then to 3/4, then 2/2 and back to 4/4 ...and where the chorus kicks in with full effect smashing out in full stereo. Ive seen most of Vertas masterclasses, Evenant, just about every little tutorial online, but havent come across this one single time. Now Im doing this by ear by changing tempo, but can anyone think of any time signature trick for building a climax? I could imagine there could be some trick in advanced orchestration classes, anyone who has done them, would you mind share some light on this.
> 
> Btw, Beatles experimemented with this in A Day in Life, now I wish I could give more examples, but cant think of any at the moment. And the experiment Beatles did, is not particularly good.



Burt Bacharach did this routinely in the ‘60’s, but not by design. He would hear it in his head away from the piano first and then write it down. He said Darius Milhaud taught him to do that when he studied with him.


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## mikeh-375 (Aug 14, 2020)

^^yeah, 'Promises, Promises' springs to mind.
Thinking in terms of signature change can be a creatively rewarding compositional tool and a great way to break 4/4 monotony as well as adding accented rhythmic vitality to phrases.


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## RobbertZH (Aug 14, 2020)

PeterN said:


> Guys, check out Wuthering Heights by Kate Bush. Try to hold on to time signature, key of song, and just the general modulation.



I tried to count with the song, but failed.
Looked it up in a songbook of Kate Bush and it shows that same parts are in 2/4, some in 4/4 and some in 3/4.



PeterN said:


> Its a true masterpiece. And forgotten.



No, definitely not forgotten.
Wuthering Heights was a hit in Europe.
A few years ago she did a few concerts in the UK and those concerts were sold-out fast.
But I believe she is less known in the USA?

I read that she was also influenced by progressive rock (in which uncommon time-signatures are used often).

If you like Kate Bush, maybe you will also like the music of norwegian singer Aurora (also very expressive):


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## PeterN (Aug 14, 2020)

RobbertZH said:


> I tried to count with the song, but failed.
> Looked it up in a songbook of Kate Bush and it shows that same parts are in 2/4, some in 4/4 and some in 3/4.
> 
> 
> ...




To create some magic around this, I was just logged into your account Robbert. All was white in background, so maybe thats your prefered layer, I just say this so you know I aint talk bullshit. So the spirit of Kate Bush came here and not only commemorated mixed time signature but also mixed up accounts and login. That is a true force of nature and creativity. I logged myself out immediately, so my visit lasted about 15 seconds.


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## PeterN (Aug 14, 2020)

i probably should clarify. I logged in to my account, or did I even do that. Clicked on thread and page was all white in backgournd. I saw the message in a box by Robbert and could have edited the text. I checked upper corner and it was Robberts name as login. I logged out or clicked another page, I cant recall. Magic. Not logged as you anymore at least.


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## RobbertZH (Aug 14, 2020)

PeterN said:


> i probably should clarify. I logged in to my account, or did I even do that. Clicked on thread and page was all white in backgournd. I saw the message in a box by Robbert and could have edited the text. I checked upper corner and it was Robberts name as login. I logged out or clicked another page, I cant recall. Magic. Not logged as you anymore at least.



Strange.

Today I have recurrent problems login into this forum.
When I attempt to login, nothing appears to happen. No error, but also not going into my login state (and I have indeed chosen white as background).
Clicking around and retrying to login may give the error message that I already have been logged-in.
When that happens, the background becomes white and I can go to this page and enter this reply.

Maybe something goes wrong at the web server side and login data is remembered from the previous login?


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## PeterN (Aug 14, 2020)

OK, it happened again. When I click on link via gmail, I get to your screen. But I tried to write a post here saying hi, from your account, but it did not accept it. Says login problem. I could not access anything private either, I did not make any great attempts, but clicked here and there and there was no reaction, it just said "run into problems" or something like that. So no worries.


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## cqd (Aug 14, 2020)

These things were all easier before DAWs though..Part of the reason I think music today is a shadow of it's former self..


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## Germain B (Aug 14, 2020)

Some odd time signatures can really bring up some specifics aspects.
For the most obvious :
For an idea of rush, something in 7/8 can gives this hurry feeling. ('1-2 1-2 1-2-3', or '1-2-3 1-2 1-2'...)
On the opposite side, an heavy, slow feeling (let's say an elephant walk), 9/8 or 5/4 can fits well.
Adding a 5/4 measure just before a new sequence, in the middle of a clean 4/4 piece is a great way to surprise with an unpredict suspension (like a freezing time)... Just one extra bit here and there.
Odd time signatures are so much fun !


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## creativeforge (Aug 14, 2020)

RobbertZH said:


> Strange.
> 
> Today I have recurrent problems login into this forum.
> When I attempt to login, nothing appears to happen. No error, but also not going into my login state (and I have indeed chosen white as background).
> ...



Hi, could you take a screenshot of what you see next time? And email me at creativeforge at gmail dot com.

Also, what browser are you using?



PeterN said:


> OK, it happened again. When I click on link via gmail, I get to your screen. But I tried to write a post here saying hi, from your account, but it did not accept it. Says login problem. I could not access anything private either, I did not make any great attempts, but clicked here and there and there was no reaction, it just said "run into problems" or something like that. So no worries.



Hi Peter, to be sure, nobody can post from someone else account. Or can even access another member's account without their password. So I don't understand what you are relating here, however if you could please take a screenshot next time and email that to me at the same address, I will look into that.

Regards,

Andre


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 14, 2020)

Mixing time signatures is as common as adverbs.

Really, nothing to see here. Everyone does it all the time.


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## Locks (Aug 14, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Mixing time signatures is as common as adverbs.
> 
> Really, nothing to see here. Everyone does it all the time.



I think Peter is more making the case that there's typically not a lot of discussion around the technique and theory of time signature switching, hemiolas or syncopation etc. I don't think he's suggesting that these techniques aren't prevalent in music.


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## PeterN (Aug 14, 2020)

creativeforge said:


> Hi, could you take a screenshot of what you see next time? And email me at creativeforge at gmail dot com.
> 
> Also, what browser are you using?
> 
> ...



It didnt happen anymore, it happened twice yesterday when I clicked on gmail link to this forum, when alerted on new message in thread. Sure, I will send ss if it happens again. I was wondering why layer was white, and as you can see Robert confirmed its white too. Saw his name up in right corner, where its should say PeterN. Some temporary glitch maybe.If it was Kate Bush stirring up, she is indeed unusually creative.


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## PeterN (Aug 14, 2020)

Locks said:


> I think Peter is more making the case that there's typically not a lot of discussion around the technique and theory of time signature switching, hemiolas or syncopation etc. I don't think he's suggesting that these techniques aren't prevalent in music.



Yea, I was looking for a "trick". In a drama build up. But Ive discovered some, just to mentione one is to leave a half note before grande finale and then put grande finale in triads. I dont know why the fuck I didnt play around with this before, Im late.


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## Anders Wall (Aug 14, 2020)

PeterN said:


> Among all tutorials Ive seen, I cant think of a single one that shows some magic tricks in time signature changing. I wonder if there is any secret trick, where you have a, say, 4/4 then it switches to 6/8 then to 3/4, then 2/2 and back to 4/4 ...


You should look into Konnakol, the South Indian rhythm language.
Here’s a teaser with a steady beat but there so much more you can do with it.



best of luck!
/Anders


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## PeterN (Aug 15, 2020)

Anders Wall said:


> You should look into Konnakol, the South Indian rhythm language.
> Here’s a teaser with a steady beat but there so much more you can do with it.
> 
> 
> ...




I recall them playing Metallica in Guantanamo Bay as torture, but this may have worked better. She gets credit for fast pronouncing. Ive been to Kathakali performance, which is same area, but this would have been impossible to endure.


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## thousandfold (Aug 15, 2020)

My first contact with seeing music in notated form where from heavy metal bands like Metallica, Slayer, Pantera, Dream Theater. Maybe not something valued by most composers, but I thought changing time signatures was normal from the get-go of my first experience. It wasn't until later I learned that most stuff is in 4/4.


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## Anders Wall (Aug 15, 2020)

PeterN said:


> I recall them playing Metallica in Guantanamo Bay as torture, but this may have worked better. She gets credit for fast pronouncing. Ive been to Kathakali performance, which is same area, but this would have been impossible to endure.


Really!?!
I get the Metallica reference, those unintentional microtonal bends that Krik Hammet flavors the music with can be hard to stand, especially over a period of time.
But the dance reference!?! Nah, this is nothing like Kathakali.

If you want to understand (internalize) rhythm I'd say there's nothing that beats Konnakol.
All those "tricks" are there from day one.

Saying that, if it feels like torture then I guess its not for you.
Music should be fun.
Heres another in a more "metal" setting.



Best of luck,
Anders


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## PeterN (Aug 15, 2020)

RobbertZH said:


> I tried to count with the song, but failed.
> Looked it up in a songbook of Kate Bush and it shows that same parts are in 2/4, some in 4/4 and some in 3/4.
> 
> 
> ...





She has an amazing voice (Aurora). Since its 1h long I have only touched the surface, but it appears intriguing. I will try to keep it on tomorrow during work shift, I really liked the first taste of it. Thanks!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 15, 2020)

Locks said:


> I think Peter is more making the case that there's typically not a lot of discussion around the technique and theory of time signature switching, hemiolas or syncopation etc. I don't think he's suggesting that these techniques aren't prevalent in music.



I don't even know that I'd call it a technique. What's to discuss?

And for scoring, how can you hit cues without adding and dropping beats (unless you change the tempo)?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 15, 2020)

By the way, the title of the thread includes "tempo changes," which of course are not the same thing until you approach the speed of light.


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## PeterN (Aug 15, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I don't even know that I'd call it a technique. What's to discuss?
> 
> And for scoring, how can you hit cues without adding and dropping beats (unless you change the tempo)?



You dont think the question is valid Nick, if there is some time signature trick to build up for a grand chorus?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 15, 2020)

There are all kind of ways to build, from speeding up note values to raising pitches to the bass going down to increasing the space between the bottom and top voices to thickening to getting louder to adding a timp roll...


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## PeterN (Aug 15, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> There are all kind of ways to build, from speeding up note values to raising pitches to the bass going down to increasing the space between the bottom and top voices to thickening to getting louder to adding a timp roll...



Didnt you ask "whats to discuss" and "nothing to see here". Maybe I took them out of context?

Btw, I didnt ask timp rolls it was specifically on time signature. But thats obvious, timp roll, speed up, higher pitch, isnt it.

Shall I translate it again for you what I was asking after?


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## PeterN (Aug 15, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> By the way, the title of the thread includes "tempo changes," which of course are not the same thing until you approach the speed of light.




What type of moderator is this that deliberately wants to come and throw water on a discussion that could have sparked fire? There was magic in the air, username Locks put up Creams White Room, then there was Kate Bush, and me and Robert got in a white room where I ended up in his account. All the time signature changes and white rooms suddenly took control There was a spirit in the thread. Then Nick came and - deliberately - threw as much as water as he could. On a miracle. Lets hope the sparks ignite again.


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## Locks (Aug 15, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I don't even know that I'd call it a technique. What's to discuss?



We should probably avoid derailing this thread into a meta-discussion about whether the conversation has merit. Personally, there's been a number of posts by other members that have interested me (including your post above where you list a few ideas for writing build ups).

I think it's an interesting subject given how modern DAWs have influenced composition over the last decade (I think @cqd mentioned this before). I think DAWs have somewhat pushed composers towards working more in 4/4 and with fixed tempos whereas in the past I would imagine there was probably more ebb and flow in tempo.


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## cqd (Aug 15, 2020)

Locks said:


> I think it's an interesting subject given how modern DAWs have influenced composition over the last decade



Indeed..Kate Bush probably didn't go..'These next four bars are in 3/4..then one bar of 5/4..' etc..
It was probably more..This bit goes 'na-na-nana-na and then duh-duh-nana-na-na..'


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 15, 2020)

PeterN said:


> What type of moderator is this that deliberately wants to come and throw water on a discussion that could have sparked fire?




What kind of forum member picks my nose?

I'm not throwing water on it, I'm saying it's water under the bridge.

Look at Stravinsky's music from the early 20th century, for example. L'Histoire du Soldat. I don't think he has a single bar in 4/4 - the time signature changes every bar. That was during WWI.

Brubeck's Time Out (the album with Take Five) was in the late '50s. I guess that was considered somewhat different - and it's a great album - but the time wasn't really out, and either was the music.

Listen to "All You Need Is Love." The Beatles didn't go to conservatory, and a lot of that is in 7.

And of course Indian music is all odd meters.

Really, odd meters are nothing unusual.


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## PeterN (Aug 15, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> What kind of forum member picks my nose?
> 
> I'm not throwing water on it, I'm saying it's water under the bridge.
> 
> ...



The question was on time signature change buildup for a chorus, but conversation can fluctuate here and there, its not a big deal. You are contributing now anyway, so its all cool. 

About the tempo thing, it is related, bcs you can change time signature and tempo as Williams does. If I ever find a trick for a very unique buildup for a chorus, I will post here so you get what I mean. Ive heard them, but dont have any around now. I did some experimenting myself and I flipped chorus one note late, and then 3/4 ostinatos instead of 4/4 and the effect was good. That could have been an answer to OP question. All cool anyway.


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## PeterN (Aug 16, 2020)

cqd said:


> Indeed..Kate Bush probably didn't go..'These next four bars are in 3/4..then one bar of 5/4..' etc..
> It was probably more..This bit goes 'na-na-nana-na and then duh-duh-nana-na-na..'



I think she did. But I dont know, of course. I think she deliberately mixed these up, and changed time signature, because the key of the song mixes up too. And there are notes from another scale thrown in, at least in beginning. Thats why its so damn good composition. (I think). I read Pink Floyd was there to promote her, I hope its not their contribution bcs they did this too (money is in 7/8 for example.) Anyway Im all to give full credit for Kate Bush. She is a gooddess if she did it all by herself.


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## GNP (Aug 16, 2020)

I often find that 'for added dramatic effect' - that usually comes from the sounds and themes themselves. Changing the time signature and tempo does that, sure, but for me it's mostly about utilizing such to sync to the picture more efficiently.

If you find that you're screwing around too much with time signature and tempo without any really valid reason, then perhaps your themes, motifs or sounds aren't exactly inspiring enough.


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## PeterN (Aug 16, 2020)

GNP said:


> I often find that 'for added dramatic effect' - that usually comes from the sounds and themes themselves. Changing the time signature and tempo does that, sure, but for me it's mostly about utilizing such to sync to the picture more efficiently.
> 
> If you find that you're screwing around too much with time signature and tempo without any really valid reason, then perhaps your themes, motifs or sounds aren't exactly inspiring enough.



Not really, I have the greatest composition - written after after a near death on Mt Everest - that I want to make even higher creation, so all ¨experts¨ loose the track of it, but cant think of anything else than "fuck that was amazing - how did he do that".

But you have a point also, but not relevant now.


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## PeterN (Aug 16, 2020)

GNP said:


> I often find that 'for added dramatic effect' - that usually comes from the sounds and themes themselves. Changing the time signature and tempo does that, sure, but for me it's mostly about utilizing such to sync to the picture more efficiently.
> 
> If you find that you're screwing around too much with time signature and tempo without any really valid reason, then perhaps your themes, motifs or sounds aren't exactly inspiring enough.



And anyway thanks for point. I think theres is also a risk to destroy a good theme with time signature changes. Kate Bush didnt, can we manage that? This is very subjective and fragile, bcs our brains are tuned to something, but how about listeners, thats what makes this so difficult.


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## telecode101 (Aug 16, 2020)

..


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## jsg (Aug 16, 2020)

PeterN said:


> Among all tutorials Ive seen, I cant think of a single one that shows some magic tricks in time signature changing. I wonder if there is any secret trick, where you have a, say, 4/4 then it switches to 6/8 then to 3/4, then 2/2 and back to 4/4 ...and where the chorus kicks in with full effect smashing out in full stereo. Ive seen most of Vertas masterclasses, Evenant, just about every little tutorial online, but havent come across this one single time. Now Im doing this by ear by changing tempo, but can anyone think of any time signature trick for building a climax? I could imagine there could be some trick in advanced orchestration classes, anyone who has done them, would you mind share some light on this.
> 
> Btw, Beatles experimemented with this in A Day in Life, now I wish I could give more examples, but cant think of any at the moment. And the experiment Beatles did, is not particularly good.



Feel your phrases, your rhythms and your stress points. That will help determine when and how to change meters. What you don't want is for meter changes to become a dry, intellectual exercise just to make the music seem more clever. A meter change has a purpose, often times that purpose is to clarify a stress point, an accent, a place where a phrase begins or ends. If meter changes are done well, they are natural, not forced, they make sense to the player or reader of the score. Building climaxes can be done via tempo, dynamics, orchestration, harmonic tension and, I suppose meter changes, for example giving the beat to the eighth note from a quarter note can have the effect of the music getting more tense.


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## GNP (Aug 16, 2020)

jsg said:


> Feel your phrases, your rhythms and your stress points. That will help determine when and how to change meters. What you don't want is for meter changes to become a dry, intellectual exercise just to make the music seem more clever. A meter change has a purpose, often times that purpose is to clarify a stress point, an accent, a place where a phrase begins or ends. If meter changes are done well, they are natural, not forced, they make sense to the player or reader of the score. Building climaxes can be done via tempo, dynamics, orchestration, and, I suppose meter changes, for example giving the beat to the eighth note from a quarter note can have the effect of the music getting more tense.



There you go. Listen to this man. 

Couldn't have said it better myself.

*What I can't stand in music, is obvious, forced intellectualism.* To me, tempo and signature changes need to be like visual effects - the moment you can sense that something is going on, then it loses its potency. The best visual effects are often NEVER spotted. But I'm speaking from a film composing POV here.....if you're doing music just for the sake of music, and not movies, then obviously you have more leeway to do whatever you want.

I just can't stand FILM music that screams, "LOOK AT HOW CLEVER I AM!!!!!!!!!! IN YOUR FUCKING FACE!!!!!!!" lololol


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 16, 2020)

jsg said:


> What you don't want is for meter changes to become a dry, intellectual exercise just to make the music seem more clever.



There's a tendency to pound every downbeat when one does that. That makes music less clever.


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## Cathbad (Aug 17, 2020)

The final section of _Belshazzar's Feast _by Walton is a good example of using time signature and tempo changes to build a climax. If I remember correctly, the melodic material gradually augments rhythmically, while the meter becomes ever faster. The effect is a strong sense of momentum and broadening simultaneously.

There are plenty of interesting examples in Bartok's _Concerto for Orchestra _too.

And alongside these great masters, I humbly offer an example of my own. At 1:24 I change from 4/4 to 9/8. Similar to _Belshazzar, _this makes the harmony shift more slowly - every three beats instead of every two beats - while the subdivision of the beat is quicker. The effect, I hope, is one of growing anticipation and movement as the sunlight shifts to focus on the Ark.


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## PeterN (Aug 17, 2020)

Cathbad said:


> The final section of _Belshazzar's Feast _by Walton is a good example of using time signature and tempo changes to build a climax. If I remember correctly, the melodic material gradually augments rhythmically, while the meter becomes ever faster. The effect is a strong sense of momentum and broadening simultaneously.
> 
> There are plenty of interesting examples in Bartok's _Concerto for Orchestra _too.
> 
> And alongside these great masters, I humbly offer an example of my own. At 1:24 I change from 4/4 to 9/8. Similar to _Belshazzar, _this makes the harmony shift more slowly - every three beats instead of every two beats - while the subdivision of the beat is quicker. The effect, I hope, is one of growing anticipation and movement as the sunlight shifts to focus on the Ark.




Hey, thanks for comment and for getting what I was asking about. Great.

So yea, and theres also Arabic music mixed in there. Tempo changes to buildup for a scene. Suits the movie well. 

Now from a practical point of view, this stuff is very much related with the movie. You cant really pick it up and apply on your own composition like that. 

I heard earlier a buildup for a climax, you could feel it was building up, then all of a sudden a choir came in as a staccato, and strings did same, all did "da da da..." and then timpani did "da da da da da..", bass drum, the rhythm changed, time signature sounded different, and it was like soon the volcano will explode. Then string run came and BOOM there it was, like an orgasm after weeks of celibacy. Now THAT was something.

If I had this, Im not sure I would throw it out to the slimy fingers out there. I mean, these are guarded secrets, its like telling on a gold panning discussion board in which river the best gold nuggets are picked.


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## Cathbad (Aug 17, 2020)

PeterN said:


> BOOM there it was, like an orgasm after weeks of celibacy.



Steady on, it wasn't _that _good... Every time I start feeling pleased with myself about writing something good, I turn on the radio and hear Brahms or Tchaikovsky or Ravel. Suddenly my music sounds like crap... 

Here are a few more rhythmic devices I particularly like. First, the finale to _Sheherezade_. Rimsky Korsakov gradually cranks up the tempo throughout, building up to Sinbad's shipwreck climax. Now that's what I call epic - with just single woodwind, standard sized brass & percussion. Here's the Vienna Philharmonic obviously having great fun. Finale starts at 30:30





The finale to _The Young Person's Guide To The Orchestra_ by Benjamin Britten. I absolutely LOVE the rhythmically augmented main theme that returns majestically in 3/2 over the fugue in presto 2/4. Makes my hair stand on end every time. Here's the London Symphony Orchestra with the composer conducting a thrilling performance. Fugue starts at 13:47





_Short Ride In A Fast Machine _by John Adams. Best woodblock part ever.


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## PeterN (Aug 19, 2020)

Cathbad said:


> Steady on, it wasn't _that _good... Every time I start feeling pleased with myself about writing something good, I turn on the radio and hear Brahms or Tchaikovsky or Ravel. Suddenly my music sounds like crap...
> 
> Here are a few more rhythmic devices I particularly like. First, the finale to _Sheherezade_. Rimsky Korsakov gradually cranks up the tempo throughout, building up to Sinbad's shipwreck climax. Now that's what I call epic - with just single woodwind, standard sized brass & percussion. Here's the Vienna Philharmonic obviously having great fun. Finale starts at 30:30
> 
> ...




Hey, that Rimsky-Korsakov clip was a great watch. That conductor suck out every drop of it. Almost demonic. Someone can get a heart attack seeing it live, should maybe sedatives be prescribed before attending.

(Sorry slow/late reply, I try to go through replies here, but time is always short. Still wading through the thread and replies.)


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## Karl Feuerstake (Aug 19, 2020)

PeterN said:


> Guys, check out Wuthering Heights by Kate Bush. Try to hold on to time signature, key of song, and just the general modulation.
> 
> DID SHE REALLY COMPOSE THIS? It is genius, more genius than anythin by John Williams. Its a true masterpiece. And forgotten. What a shame. If she composed it we can say there is an enourmous potential in women composers.




Almost all of it is 4/4 to my ear? There are occasional measures of 2/4 used to extend phrases. Sorry to burst your bubble.

I'm not going to spend the time to analyze all the keys or modulations.

Pop music may present a challenge to locating brilliant, original music. Much of it makes use of simple or compound time and conventional tonality, both of which have been around for a very long time. They might use syncopation within those time signatures or use occasional chromatic dissonances or unexpected chords, but usually its within a paradigm of simplicity so that anyone can appreciate it, and thus the masses do, and thus it is called popular.

If she contributed to writing this at all, good for her; I think women composers should and need to be celebrated. I just found your excitement over the complexity of the piece, and your statement to contest the brilliance of John Williams, to be questionable.


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## PeterN (Aug 19, 2020)

Karl Feuerstake said:


> Almost all of it is 4/4 to my ear? There are occasional measures of 2/4 used to extend phrases. Sorry to burst your bubble.
> 
> I'm not going to spend the time to analyze all the keys or modulations.
> 
> ...



Nobody cares what you want to spend your time with. Nobody.

But you are right on the Williams part, it was meant to exaggerate. You cannot really compare it with Williams, its two different genres. But if Williams had to write a pop song, he would not have beat that song. Like Verta says, if you cant write a great pop ballad how can you be a great composer.

Its a great melody, with changing key, notes out of key scale, time signature moves between 2/2, 4/4 and 3/4. You dont find many pop songs like that. Just fuckin great.


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## Karl Feuerstake (Aug 19, 2020)

PeterN said:


> Nobody cares what you want to spend your time with. Nobody.
> 
> But you are right on the Williams part, it was meant to exaggerate. You cannot really compare it with Williams, its two different genres. But if Williams had to write a pop song, he would not have beat that song. Like Verta says, if you cant write a great pop ballad how can you be a great composer.
> 
> Its a great melody, with changing key, notes out of key scale, time signature moves between 2/2, 4/4 and 3/4. You dont find many pop songs like that. Just fuckin great.



You invited people to check out how incredibly genius that song was, rather out of nowhere, so I spent some of my time indeed doing so; but nothing in it particularly made me think that much of it. There's nothing wrong with it, it just wasn't as spectacular as how you made it sound. I didn't think it served as a particularly brilliant example of changing time signatures for the purpose of extra drama, as to me they were so subtle as to be barely noticeable.

If that is the kind of time signature changes you're trying to learn how to write, it might work to think about it like a compressed extension to a phrase (one that is of reduced length compared to the other cells in the phrase.) If you have your phrase made up of two measures of 4/4, append an extra measure of 2/4 at the end of the second cell. This could serve as a prolongation of the cadential motion.


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## PeterN (Aug 19, 2020)

Karl Feuerstake said:


> You invited people to check out how incredibly genius that song was, rather out of nowhere, so I spent some of my time indeed doing so; but nothing in it particularly made me think that much of it. There's nothing wrong with it, it just wasn't as spectacular as how you made it sound. I didn't think it served as a particularly brilliant example of changing time signatures for the purpose of extra drama, as to me they were so subtle as to be barely noticeable.
> 
> If that is the kind of time signature changes you're trying to learn how to write, it might work to think about it like a compressed extension to a phrase (one that is of reduced length compared to the other cells in the phrase.) If you have your phrase made up of two measures of 4/4, append an extra measure of 2/4 at the end of the second cell. This could serve as a prolongation of the cadential motion.



Its like poetry, theres the major work that takes days to finish, or just the shorter piece that you read in a minute, but it affects. Or like a grand buffet with plenty of selections, or just the little piece of baguette, roquefort and a glass of bourgogne that makes it more perfect. Kate Bush¨s Wundering Heights is iike the bolt of a small crossbow that hits the heart of a general of the forces of darkness, who commands a grand major army. It is a genius piece of art.

It is the minimalistic approach that one should approach with. You are therefore recommended to develop this ability to learn, see and recognize, genius art by developing the ability to approach from minimalistic perspective. I can give suggestions how to develop this ability if you want to learn it. It is seeing nature in small details also. 


About your suggestion of second cell, its a good suggestion. I think I mentioned here in this thread twice I already did it, I put 1/4 there on end of cell. Then I put the next phrase in 3/4 ostinatios behind 4/4 theme. Thats the PeterN trick. Its secret.


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## mikeh-375 (Aug 19, 2020)

PeterN said:


> About your suggestion of second cell, its a good suggestion. I think I mentioned here in this thread twice I already did it, I put 1/4 there on end of cell. Then I put the next phrase in 3/4 ostinatios behind 4/4 theme. Thats the PeterN trick. Its secret.



I think Stravinsky beat you to that way of writing...


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