# For Mac users



## synergy543 (May 27, 2005)

Add up the total cost of your hardware.
Add up the total cost of your software.

The hardware is nothing compared to software. 

And if you switch hardware, add the cost off replacing ALL of the software.

I'd look for at least 2G+ dual for music (1.8 might be a bit slow). Apple has some great refurbished offers that have full warranty. RAM and hard drives are cheaper elsewhere.

www.ramseeker.com
www.newegg.com

Dual Xeon might be faster as you can get up to around 3.4G. Logic sounds like its more efficient that DP 4.5.2 but I use DP and don't plan to switch - BTD frees up CPU when needed.


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## fictionmusic (May 27, 2005)

Hey Jose

I have a G5 2x2 with 2 gigs of ram. I just opened up 12 instances of Gold each one fully loaded (ie 8 tracks per). All told it was 96 parts deep. I had to increase the buffer to it's maximum size and it ran smoothly. I added 1 instance of Space Designer and it still ran smoothly. I added another space designer and it was less smooth, by the third Space Designer, I started to get distortion and error messages. Oddly the CPU meters were only at about 40%.

Quite frankly I don't think Native Instruments work that well on Macs (or at least not as well as they do on PCs), I have Reaktor and it is a resource hog as well. 

Normally I use exs-24, and while I don't often run 96 instances of it (to equal the tracks in a 96 part Gold setup) I find it far more resource friendly. I have several 30 minute pieces that use at least 40 instances of EX as well as a bunch of other synths-and tons of processing.

Hope that helps.


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## José Herring (May 27, 2005)

That's great. That helps an incredible amount. That's for doing that test. It's exactly what I needed to know.
:D 

Jose


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## Marsdy (May 28, 2005)

If you're using DP, comparisons with a PC are bit academic but...

On my old dual 1 Ghz G4 I could get 6 mono to stereo instances of Altiverb before the CPU maxed out. On my dual 2.5 G5 I can get 16 mono to stereo and 8 stereo to stereo instances. 

Disappointingly, the user interface of DP can still be very sluggish and unresponsive even on a dual 2.5 G5 and it really chews up the CPU when you use low buffer settings.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 28, 2005)

Fictionmusic, I bet you'd get better performance with more RAM, since Logic can use up to 4GB (although it'll show as 3.17GB in Activity Monitor; 2.5GB is about the practical limit in my 5GB machine).

The way to test whether I'm right is simply to load the same session, remove one Kompakt instance (to free up its memory), and see whether you get more Altiverbs.


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## fictionmusic (May 29, 2005)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Fictionmusic, I bet you'd get better performance with more RAM, since Logic can use up to 4GB (although it'll show as 3.17GB in Activity Monitor; 2.5GB is about the practical limit in my 5GB machine).
> 
> The way to test whether I'm right is simply to load the same session, remove one Kompakt instance (to free up its memory), and see whether you get more Altiverbs.



Yep, I tried it and you're right. When I got the G5 (almost 2 years ago now) I couldn't imagine needing any more than I.5 gigs of Ram. I ended up buying another gig last year thinking it would be more than enough. So I actually have 2.5, and while it mostly works fine, I think some more would be a good idea. Same with harddrives, I have a raptor and the mac internal drive. When I ordered it I thought it would be enough. Wrong again.

Actually Nick you might be able to answer a question I have. I had a Lacie drive that I bought but subsequently took back because it was conflicting with my firewire 410 audio interface. They were on seperate busses (as M-audio advised) but every time I would turn on the lacie (big) the 410 would be disabled. I need to buy another drive soon and I really liked the lacie, but there is no point having it if the M-audio screws up as a result. I am going to buy another audio interface soon (after I recover from my recent spending spree) but I need the drive today. So...have you heard of these problems and do you know of a solution?

I remember George Leger saying that he used his lacie on the 800 port with a cable to switch the 800 to 400 (I think thats what he said) so maybe there is some hope.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 29, 2005)

Sorry, I don't know. I've never had any FW conflicts, but I only recently switched to a G5.

And I never buy name brand FW drives, because they're three times the price. Standard drives and $50 FW boxes are just as good these days.


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## Frederick Russ (May 29, 2005)

Some of the Firewire housings have noisy fans - be prepared. I have one that is louder than both my G5 and VisionDAW combined. I placed it in a half covered shoe box to help counter the noise - maybe there is quieter solution?


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## fictionmusic (May 29, 2005)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Sorry, I don't know. I've never had any FW conflicts, but I only recently switched to a G5.
> 
> And I never buy name brand FW drives, because they're three times the price. Standard drives and $50 FW boxes are just as good these days.






No problem Nick...well I really like lacie, cool styling and all plus pretty fast seek times....but they are pricey....I guess it is time to do some research!

Fred, the drive I had was pretty quiet (the lacie big) but like I said it was fighting with my audio interface. All things considered I really don't like the m-audio interface...it is by far the most problematic device I own.
Still, it is pretty inexpensive and mostly a cool piece of business.

like i said, i think some research is needed. i have to buy something soon, so i am off to do some homework.


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## synergy543 (May 29, 2005)

I'm using FW800 that have no fan and are working beautifully. They're not $50 and not really cheap (where are you getting FW800 for $50 Nick?) but they are silent and look nice (pretty blue lights):
http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other%20 ... g/MEFW800/

Also check out this external SATA. I don't have it (yet) but it looks really cool and might be your best solution:
http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Firmtek/SATA1SEN2/


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## ComposerDude (May 30, 2005)

If you're moving material between studios on HD, you can get versions with FW400, FW800 and USB2.0 interfaces all on the same drive, for flexibility.


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## Frederick Russ (May 30, 2005)

Wow I really like the external sata solution - maybe Nick Batzdorf can chime in with some choice naysaying to talk me out of it. I wonder about the performance of a 10K rpm raptor in a rig like this.


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## synergy543 (May 30, 2005)

Frederick Russ said:


> Wow I really like the external sata solution..


I think Jamie had one and seemed to really like it. Technically it seems like the best choice and you can run it as a RAID. Should be much faster than just a Raptor alone but that might not be true for small files (which is more relavent to audio).


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 30, 2005)

I'm not using FW800. FW400 drives on the same machine slow FW down to 400 speeds anyway - there's only one FW bus on Macs - so it would mean I couldn't use my "old" FW drives anymore. FW800 isn't going to get you any more voices anyway - it's just a faster bus, not a faster-seeking drive.

Mr. Fred, I think external SATA is the way to go if you're expanding. While I have two Raptors in my VisionDAW machine and have been very happy with their performance, I've also read reports that regular 7200RPM SATA drives are fine. That's what I'm using on my G5 (an internal 400MB Seagate), and it works great.

But I also have to admit that I haven't used the G5 on a project yet; I've been up to here in getting our first issue out the door. 

Anyway, the next drive I add to my G5 will be external SATA; I'm not going to buy any more FW drives. Unless you need eight ports, the card to get seems to be this $140 one:

http://www.firmtek.com/seritek/seritek-1ve4/

Sonnet makes an 8-external-port card for almost $300, which to me is starting to become too expensive. They also make one with four internal ports and four external for $200, but then you need something like this to mount drives inside a G5:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5199962447 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 5199962447)

...which seems like a dubious way to go.


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## fictionmusic (May 30, 2005)

Wow, a lot to digest here. Thanks for the links: I am thinking the external SATA drives are the way to go. I have a raptor in the mac already and like it, so maybe 2 more in the external box would do, but I have also read the less expensive regular 7200RPM drives are fine too.
Either way it is an option I had not thought of and looks like it won't conflict with my audio interface.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 31, 2005)

If you already have FW, by the way, there's no reason not to use it. According to the guy at MacGurus, there's a performance hit with each additional drive on the bus. I actually noticed that the 4th drive on my G4 was clicking; it's not clicking on my G5, which has two FW drives.

The reason for the hit, the fellow says, is that FW is a serial interface and the Mac can only talk to one drive at a time.

Is this a load of booshwoogie? I don't know; it's possible that the G5 simply is a better citizen and it's coincidence.


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## José Herring (May 31, 2005)

Does anybody know of a decent reverb for the mac that isn't a convolution reverb? One that sounds like a concert hall but isn't that CPU hungry.

Jose


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 31, 2005)

I think those attributes are at opposite ends of a scale, Jose.

Does Lexicon make a host-based reverb? The Lexiverb was pretty good, but it was a TDM plug-in.


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## rJames (May 31, 2005)

josejherring said:


> Does anybody know of a decent reverb for the mac that isn't a convolution reverb? One that sounds like a concert hall but isn't that CPU hungry.
> 
> Jose



Logic with Space Designer is pretty easy on the CPU. I have a dual 2G G5 and still haven't hit the limit on instruments and verb. (I still don't use 80% of Gold yet though) But I have about 40-50 articulations and those include keyswitches for everything. In addition I have 4-8 Storm Drums available and a large piano (Black Grand).


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## José Herring (Jun 1, 2005)

I know I'm dreaming.

I have another job starting but don't want to blow everything in computer and recording cost. So I'm looking for cost effective solutions, but in this day and age its looking like I just need to catch up.

I'd love to stay on the mac with trusty ol' DP but for that amount of money I'm not so sure.

I'm loosing my faith and I'm reaching out to my Mac brothers to prop me up again. Anybody know when mac is going to break the 3ghz barrier?

Jose


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## synergy543 (Jun 1, 2005)

Jose, I've always wanted a faster Mac in the past. Now with 2.5G Dual, I don't really have that burning desire.

I want a faster ME! I'm still running at the same speed (or trying to)

And if you really need more Mac power, it shouldn't be too difficult to chain the power of two machines together with MIDI over LAN.

No question though you can buy a faster PC. I saw a 3.6GHz machine today but by the time you deck it out with all the perks, I don't think there is a significant difference in price. Not when you factor in the cost of VSL, EWLQLSO, CHOIRS, RA, ProjectSAM, StorumDrums, and everything else. Plus the learning curve of new software.

The hardware is truly but a small cost - I don't know why that's always the focust on peoples minds.

I recommend you get Altiverb - I think you'll be pleased. 

Or if you want to free CPU...I have a hardware Lexicon PCM-91 I'm selling - Its only been turned on a few times. I'm never going to turn it on again so I'm selling it. But honestly I'd recommend Altiverb instead.


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## elith (Jun 2, 2005)

rJames and fictionmusic:
How can you obtain so many instruments on Gold? and logic.

I?m using G5 2.5 ram and logic 6 SATA [email protected] but I star to receive the infamous core audio messaje drive to slow If I use more than 2-3 kompakt insatances filled with 10 Ks programs and maybe 4-6 without KS? I have tried any combination on kompakt settings and buffer size in logic.
Can you post your settings?

Thanks.


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## elith (Jun 2, 2005)

rJames said:


> elith said:
> 
> 
> > rJames and fictionmusic:
> ...



Thanks rJames
great I changed mi DFD settings and can open a Song with 3 Kompaky instances filled (24 instruments) without problems.
I was using 192/384 that was the settings suggested by Doug and Nick. :? .


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## rJames (Jun 2, 2005)

elith said:


> Thanks rJames
> great I changed mi DFD settings and can open a Song with 3 Kompaky instances filled (24 instruments) without problems.
> I was using 192/384 that was the settings suggested by Doug and Nick. :? .



You can probably double that number of instruments without trouble.

Open an application in Applications/Utilities called Activity Monitor.

You can see how your ram is being used. And you can see how much ram Logic is using. If you are running only Logic then you'll get most of 2G for Logic. Caution: one time I loaded more than 2G into ram. It worked fine until I quit and came back later. Then the song wouldn't open. I had to do someting crazy like move my samples so that Logic would open up without loading into \ram. And then write down all the patches, delete some of them resave and reopen after pulling my samples back in. It was a pain.


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## fictionmusic (Jun 2, 2005)

Well for my part, I was using the same settings Doug and Nick recommended (192=384) i'm going to try the others later tonight), but I had logic's buffer all the way to its highest setting. As well I have all the NI stuff on a Raptor (internal sata) which is pretty fast. I'm not sure but that might have something to do with it. It was only when I opened Space Dsigner (3 instances) did my computer stop and give core audio messages. With 1 it ran fine, but until I had Logic's buffer maxed, I was getting distortion pretty badly. 

Quite frankly I doubt I'd ever use 11 instances of Gold. I usually end up recording parts to disk (and save the instanced song as a production file, in case I want to go back and change stuff) but I still remember using an 8 track as my main recorder and having to mix as I went. I am looking at another PC for music(I have one for business and internet stuff) so I can run all the new toys I have been buying or intend to buy.


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## rJames (Jun 2, 2005)

[quote:15c74bd54e="fictionmusic"]Well for my part, I was using the same settings Doug and Nick recommended (192=384) i'm going to try the others later tonight), but I had logic's buffer all the way to its é
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