# List of classical sources for famous film music



## Zardoz (Jan 19, 2015)

Since study scores for film music are typically expensive and hard to find (if available at all), the question seems to often come up here and elsewhere - what classical scores should one study to learn the techniques of the film music idiom?

With that in mind I thought it might be useful to begin making a list of some famous film music and its corresponding classical influences. The goal here is to build a classical study repetoire to be used as a reference for budding composers who want to sharpen their craft. 

As suggestions are made I will add them to this post. I will list a few obvious ones to get things started. 

E.T. The Extra-Terrestrial _John Williams_ -- Symphony No.2, 3rd Movement _Howard Hanson_
Willow _James Horner_ -- Symphony No.3, 1st Movement _Robert Schumann_
Gladiator _Hans Zimmer_ -- The Planets, 1st Movement, Mars, Bringer of War _Gustav Holst_
Star Trek III ("Stealing the Enterprise") _James Horner_ -- Romeo and Juliet, "The Death of Tybalt" _Sergei Prokofiev_


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## Zardoz (Jan 20, 2015)

Not everyone all at once now. Maybe no one else is interested but me? :shrug:


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## Carles (Jan 20, 2015)

I find it very interesting.
Just cannot contribute myself as I haven't listened much to soundtracks but classical only so I only know half of the equation.

I think it's a good initiative and looking forward to see the list populated.
Thanks for posting.

Cheers,
Carles


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## Farkle (Jan 20, 2015)

Thank you for starting this thread, Zardoz!

At a high level, I'm trying to think of some direct relations.

I do know that Goldsmith's The Secret of NIMH owes a lot to Ravel's Daphnis and Chloe (full ballet).

I'll see if any others pop into my head. That is a good one, though. 

Mike


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## bbunker (Jan 20, 2015)

I'm pretty agnostic about these kinds of threads. There're pieces like the Star Wars Theme and the King's Row Theme where connections are pretty direct and clear. But neither of them could have done anything without "Meistersinger." And then...well, "Mars" for the entirety of Hans' Gladiator score? I assure you that no one is going to go listen to 'The Planets' and then come up with some magical formula for how to write as well as Hans does.

I think therein lies the danger: every film score is the product of a film composer, and every film composer is the product of a multitude of musical experiences. Has Hans heard 'The Planets' before? I don't need to say "rctec" into the mirror seven times to confirm that to be true. But what about Flamenco music, or the music of the near east and North Africa, or Samuel Barber, or Wagner, or Bruckner, or the Mozart Requiem, or the Bach B-minor mass? Because I hear all those things in Gladiator. And even that feels like an oversimplification. 

Not trying to rain on your parade - getting out scores is always a good thing. But thinking that you just study one score, and that's what some connected film score is about? That doesn't sit so well with me. But, you know...do your thing!


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## Zardoz (Jan 20, 2015)

bbunker @ Tue Jan 20 said:


> I'm pretty agnostic about these kinds of threads. There're pieces like the Star Wars Theme and the King's Row Theme where connections are pretty direct and clear. But neither of them could have done anything without "Meistersinger." And then...well, "Mars" for the entirety of Hans' Gladiator score? I assure you that no one is going to go listen to 'The Planets' and then come up with some magical formula for how to write as well as Hans does.
> 
> I think therein lies the danger: every film score is the product of a film composer, and every film composer is the product of a multitude of musical experiences. Has Hans heard 'The Planets' before? I don't need to say "rctec" into the mirror seven times to confirm that to be true. But what about Flamenco music, or the music of the near east and North Africa, or Samuel Barber, or Wagner, or Bruckner, or the Mozart Requiem, or the Bach B-minor mass? Because I hear all those things in Gladiator. And even that feels like an oversimplification.
> 
> Not trying to rain on your parade - getting out scores is always a good thing. But thinking that you just study one score, and that's what some connected film score is about? That doesn't sit so well with me. But, you know...do your thing!



I certainly take your point, but I think you may be misunderstanding my motivations with starting this thread. I'm certainly not trying to reduce said scores down to the sum of their quotations and influences. Nor am I trying to demean or denigrate any composer or composition as plagiarism simply because they quoted or borrowed from the classics. On the contrary, I think it shows that these composers have a musical literacy and understanding of these works that is sorely lacking in some newer composers. 

It's just that, as an art form, film music isn't easy to study because most of the scores are locked away in a vault or music library collection somewhere. Of course Mike Verta's suggestion that we transcribe this music ourselves is certainly a vital skill set and one I am beginning to practice, but I still think there is some value in seeing the actual notes on the page. 

With that said, the next best thing it seems to actually seeing the film scores themselves is to look at what we _do_ have available - the wealth of classical music that inspired them.

TL;DR - I want to learn how to do what these guys do. Since I can't typically look at what they are doing directly, I'll settle for looking at their influences.


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## jaeroe (Jan 20, 2015)

Composers of the "Golden Age of Hollywood" were concert composers turned hollywood guys. Their music was just concert music written to picture - from Brahms to Tchaikovsky Dvorak to Debussy. And in the 1st half of the 20th century there were plenty of concert composers who did film and radio scores. Hollywood's sensibilities have changed since those days, no doubt, but in the last 30-40 years there have been plenty of obvious connections. Look no further than John Williams to get started. Star Wars is heavily indebted to a huge amount of concert music (directly in many cases and in a more general approach) - too numerous to list. Jaws is also heavily influenced by Stravinsky and Bartok. Williams' knowledge of concert music is outstanding, and that shows itself in his composing. He's got a lot of orchestral chops and can write a great theme like nobody's business. But, what's really impressive is the way he contours a scene and a score to picture.

But, that is also a very particular sound that isn't so prevalent in film nowadays (there are less scores coming out in that vein these days). I think it is important to know that music if you want to be working with an orchestra, but if you are or want to be a film composer, it is imperative to understanding how to work to picture and also what the trends in filmmaking (and scoring) are and how you might relate to that. It's important to be familiar with all of that so you can have some sort of personal perspective. Look at who that successful composers working today are and it's pretty obvious that a personal sound is much more important today than just known about the orchestra. I think you need both.

There's also been plenty of great use of concert music in film - those scores are the same cheap prices often.

Lord of the Rings owes a huge amount to Wagner, and the choir stuff essentially is Carmina Burana in parts. There's Takamitsu and a whole host of 20th century composers in there in bits in pieces, as well. Goldenthal obviously knows a lot of concert music, but Puccini comes through in his writing a lot plus a host of 20th century composers. Then there are scores like Black Swan which take existing concert pieces as a jumping off point and jumble them up. It really goes on forever.

I think if you learn say 10 pieces of standard orchestral repertoire you might just be better off. You hear that stuff everywhere. Thomas Goss (orchestration online.com) has a great list of classic scores to learn.


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## dcoscina (Jan 20, 2015)

Actually LOTR is more Bruckner than Wagner and Goldenthallften channeled Mahler or else Polish avant garde composers.

Study Prokofiev as his music is a source of inspiration for a lot of Silver Age composers including John Williams and James Horner, at least in the arranging if not the harmonic framework botn used in some of their seminal scores.

Shostakovich is another good source and of course Stravinsky who influenced a plethora of film composers.


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## jaeroe (Jan 20, 2015)

dcoscina @ Tue Jan 20 said:


> Actually LOTR is more Bruckner than Wagner and Goldenthallften channeled Mahler or else Polish avant garde composers.



again - a lot of composers are going to draw on a lot of influences. i worked on LOTR. shore was hugely influenced by wagner on those scores, a lot of composers, but wagner especially. re Bruckner, if you're talking about the low registral timbres, sure, but wagner abounds and on many different levels and shore hasn't shied away from that. bruckner also never shied away from wagner's influence.

goldenthal also openly discusses the influence of various composers and pieces, and puccini is always right there. how many times have you heard
Bb, A, AAAAAAbbbbb______ in a Goldenthal scores? he thinks very dramatically, very operatically. shore talks about this as well in reference to wagner for LOTR and what he calls thinking operatically (you can agree or disagree, but that's where he says he was coming from).


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## jleckie (Jan 20, 2015)

I would think just about anything in imslp?


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## amordechai (Jan 21, 2015)

Very interesting thread.

- Princess Leia's theme (Williams, SW ep. IV): Heavily influenced by Bruckner's fourth symphony and it's horn countermelodies.

- Flight from Peru (Williams, Raiders of the lost ark): direct quote of the main theme from the "Pizzicato Ostinato" of Tchaykovsky's fourth symphony.


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## Hanu_H (Jan 21, 2015)

I think these clips were interesting. Everyone get's inspired by something and there is only limited number of options when composing something for the mood. It's really not the actual notes and orchestration that makes the films music work, it's mostly setting the right mood and the timing needs to be impeccable. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9IV5u9iwuQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cXWtFknQlg

-Hannes


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## bryla (Jan 21, 2015)

Actually there have been several threads with these lists over the years. Try doing a forum search and you will come up with goldmines of resources.


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## Sebastianmu (Jan 21, 2015)

John Williams' Fairy Tale idiom (found in Harry Potter and Witches of east wick and stuff like that) comes from Ralph Vaughan Williams' later symphonies (6th, 7th, 8th) I think. (Talking about the orchestral textures here..)


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## muk (Jan 21, 2015)

The title theme of Knight Rider by Stu Phillips borrowed the melody from Leo Delibes (Cortège de Bacchus from the Ballet Sylvia).


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