# What's it like living in LA in 2022?



## jononotbono (Feb 22, 2022)

There have been many posts on LA and what its like to live there but I'm curious what its like at this moment in time during this Covid time? Is it possible for somebody to be a film composers assistant and get paid enough to afford rent or is it just unrealistic unless you come from wealth? I have no idea what the states of studios are at the minute with Covid but it feels like its eased off compared to last year which felt like the world closed down.

Would love to hear some stories from people that do live in LA. I have a Green Card and was living in upstate New York for a while but came back to England because of Covid. However, I'm always thinking about LA but I'd like to know more about it and from people that have moved to LA from other parts of America (and the rest of the world) and do actually make a living.

Jono


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## chillbot (Feb 22, 2022)

It is always better to come from wealth if that's an option.


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## jononotbono (Feb 22, 2022)

chillbot said:


> It is always better to come from wealth if that's an option.


I completely agree. Unfortunately I had to sell my English Castle to fund my sample library addiction a while back so it’s not an option anymore.


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## nolotrippen (Feb 22, 2022)

chillbot said:


> It is always better to come from wealth if that's an option.


Or build it over time (took us a long time to own our house, for example) and it IS getting more expensive to start here. If I was a young guy just starting out, I would not move to Los Angeles unless I could move in with family or have a few roommates. And you do have to have a car.


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## chillbot (Feb 22, 2022)

I suspect you will get a more favorable answer if you ask this in a couple months or this summer. Barring any setbacks things are trending toward getting back to normal, or maybe a new normal. It's hard for me to imagine a real need to be in LA right now, aside from physically assisting a composer in-studio... which, yes, is a thing that still happens but how are you going to get hired? Probably applying online and interview via zoom if you get to that stage. And a lot of stuff is just remote/virtual still including some spotting sessions and most composer networking events and even some assisting gigs. Even though things are getting better the overall feel to me is that we are still in lockdown. I've only been out to one event in the past couple of years (the Emmy music hang, outdoors with vax requirements) whereas I used to go to a couple every month. LA County will be one of the last places in the country to fully reopen (though if you hate masks you can live next door in Orange County which is pretty much a free-for-all).

As far as cost-of-living and assistant wages and all that nothing has changed, I feel like that's been covered in a hundred different threads on here. TL;DR yes, it's completely unreasonable... yes, you need a car... yes, you can squeak by if you live in one of the fringe cities in a tiny overpriced apartment.


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## DESmith (Feb 22, 2022)

I'm from Canada and live in LA as a full time composer. I've never been an assistant or anything so I'm not sure what they pay is, but rent has been going way up here as well as buying, it's just insane at this point, so starting out is difficult unless you commute I would think. I would also suggest having a nice chunk of savings for the first year at least to live off of.

Things aren't back to what they were pre-covid so networking etc is still quite difficult, although it's getting easier, but it would still take longer than before to get things going, but it can be done if you're determined enough. I have in person sessions still but much less than before and everyone is always masked etc. As for meetings that help further my career, I average one a month right now that I can only do because I'm in LA, so hardly anything really.

I think waiting a little longer would be better at this point unless you feel you really have to be here.


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## marclawsonmusic (Feb 22, 2022)

I went out there on a scouting trip in October last year. My observations:

Plan on spending $2K+ for rent (even for a studio or 1 bedroom)
Restaurants prices are basically what you pay in airports (e.g. $10 beers / $14 glass of wine, $25+ entrees)
Price of gasoline / petrol is some of the highest in the US ($4.50-$5.00 / gallon - and you need to drive everywhere)
Homelessness is a real issue
Probably a similar situation to NYC since you lived there before, so maybe this is not too scary for you.

Not sure about the COVID situation, but I get the impression CA is starting to open up post-COVID. Maybe things will be more normal by the summer?

I've had several friends tell me this is a bad time to move there.


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## Zanshin (Feb 22, 2022)

jononotbono said:


> I completely agree. Unfortunately I had to sell my English Castle to fund my sample library addiction a while back so it’s not an option anymore.


I heard NFTs are a goldmine. Take some self nudes... turn into NFTs... buy a beach mansion?


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## chillbot (Feb 22, 2022)

marclawsonmusic said:


> Price of gasoline / petrol is some of the highest in the US ($4.50-$5.00 / gallon - and you need to drive everywhere)


We just hit $6.00.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Feb 22, 2022)

chillbot said:


> We just hit $6.00.


That’s an outrageous price!

*pays $8.50 pr. gallon here in Denmark, Scandinavia!*


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## AndrewS (Feb 22, 2022)

chillbot said:


> We just hit $6.00.


That Fairfax/Olympic Shell that's definitely not a front for money laundering has been there for a while now


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## Wally Garten (Feb 22, 2022)

AndrewS said:


> That Fairfax/Olympic Shell that's definitely not a front for money laundering has been there for a while now


Is that the one with the cool retro-modern design?


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## AndrewS (Feb 22, 2022)

Wally Garten said:


> Is that the one with the cool retro-modern design?


Well there's that weird fractal steel one on Olympic/Robertson, and the triangle shaped one in BH, but the Fairfax/Olympic one is just a boring standard type with continually ridiculous prices even when gas is cheap.


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## chrisr (Feb 22, 2022)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> That’s an outrageous price!
> 
> *pays $8.50 pr. gallon here in Denmark, Scandinavia!*


Fun game - UK is just under $9 per gallon, when you do the conversions. I think we've always been amongst the most costly for fuel. :(

** edit - $9 / gallon - not £9 ***


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## Wally Garten (Feb 22, 2022)

AndrewS said:


> Well there's that weird fractal steel one on Olympic/Robertson, and the triangle shaped one in BH, but the Fairfax/Olympic one is just a boring standard type with continually ridiculous prices even when gas is cheap.


Yes, sorry -- the Olympic/Robertson Arco is the one I was thinking of. Just found it :






That one at Fairfax is indeed boring and standard.


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## Wally Garten (Feb 22, 2022)

chrisr said:


> Fun game - UK is just under £9 per gallon, when you do the conversions. I think we've always been amongst the most costly for fuel. :(


In Georgia (the U.S. state) it's $3.37.

(Sorry about the global warming!)


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## Thomas Costantino (Mar 5, 2022)

Was doing some research on Cali/LA and lead to articles about the film industry slowly but surely spreading to Austin, Atlanta, Nashville, and New Mexico. Seems like there’s a push for major studios to reallocate, as well as a movement to keep Hollywood where it was born.

Interesting to see how this plays out. If major players and acting talent start leaving LA, I’m sure that will trickle down to Composers and all sorts of production jobs following suit. On one hand, I like the idea of all the action taking place in one city. Makes the decision simple: move to LA and be where the action is. On the other hand, it’s exciting to have options if another city rivals to become a film industry leader. 

Once it feels right, I’ll land near LA and do whatever it takes to make it happen- regardless the covid restrictions or high rent. But I’m curious to wait and see what happens with these other cities. 

Wondering if this is affecting anyone else’s decision to wait on relocating, or in fact are you leaving LA for another city that’s supporting your music career ?


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## marclawsonmusic (Mar 5, 2022)

Thomas Costantino said:


> Was doing some research on Cali/LA and lead to articles about the film industry slowly but surely spreading to Austin, Atlanta, Nashville, and New Mexico. Seems like there’s a push for major studios to reallocate, as well as a movement to keep Hollywood where it was born.


Although there is production happening all over the place, all of the music post (for US productions) is still happening in LA. That's where the studios are headquartered and I doubt that will change anytime soon.


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## Thomas Costantino (Mar 5, 2022)

marclawsonmusic said:


> Although there is production happening all over the place, all of the music post (for US productions) is still happening in LA. That's where the studios are headquartered and I doubt that will change anytime soon.



The more I think about it, I’m hoping that’s the case. I recall the trend being due to soundstage demand but the tax credits are getting crazy competitive to keep them spread all over. It could simply be a well needed expansion.


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## davidanthony (Mar 5, 2022)

jononotbono said:


> I have a Green Card and was living in upstate New York for a while but came back to England because of Covid.


You probably already know this but just in case, being out of the US for greater than a year can be considered "abandonment" of your green card and lead to some awkwardness or even refusal at re-entry. USCIS policies may have softened because of COVID but would prepare yourself all the same if you've been gone for a while.


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## aeliron (Mar 6, 2022)

marclawsonmusic said:


> I went out there on a scouting trip in October last year. My observations:
> 
> Plan on spending $2K+ for rent (even for a studio or 1 bedroom)
> Restaurants prices are basically what you pay in airports (e.g. $10 beers / $14 glass of wine, $25+ entrees)
> ...


How is the poop-in-the-streets situation? May be a doable tradeoff if you have a biodiesel engine.


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## JJP (Mar 6, 2022)

Thomas Costantino said:


> Interesting to see how this plays out. If major players and acting talent start leaving LA, I’m sure that will trickle down to Composers and all sorts of production jobs following suit.


This has been an ongoing discussion for decades. It makes for great newsprint. First it was all scoring is going to be done in Prague, then Seattle, then film soundstages were all going to be built in New Orleans, North Carolina, Atlanta, Arizona, or New Mexico. States are constantly using tax credits to lure productions to their states. The problem is that you need skilled, experienced people to staff these productions or else the costs outweigh the benefits. 

Other locations don't have the depth of skilled workers that Southern California does. Elsewhere once there are 2-3 decent-sized productions running, you have often tapped all the available experienced staff. You can't build a deep reserve of talented staff in a few years, so Los Angeles still remains the primary hub.

As mentioned in a previous post, most of the post-production work comes back to Los Angeles even when things are shot elsewhere. Again, it's often about the depth of talent available.


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## Mike Greene (Mar 6, 2022)

JJP said:


> This has been an ongoing discussion for decades. It makes for great newsprint. First it was all scoring is going to be done in Prague, then Seattle, then film soundstages were all going to be built in New Orleans, North Carolina, Atlanta, Arizona, or New Mexico. States are constantly using tax credits to lure productions to their states. The problem is that you need skilled, experienced people to staff these productions or else the costs outweigh the benefits.
> 
> Other locations don't have the depth of skilled workers that Southern California does. Elsewhere once there are 2-3 decent-sized productions running, you have often tapped all the available experienced staff. You can't build a deep reserve of talented staff in a few years, so Los Angeles still remains the primary hub.
> 
> As mentioned in a previous post, most of the post-production work comes back to Los Angeles even when things are shot elsewhere. Again, it's often about the depth of talent available.


A show I did in the fall is an example of that. They shot elsewhere, and when I'd ask how things were going, most of the conversations revolved around simply getting the production crew up to speed. (We've done shows here in L.A., so we could "talk.") They probably saved money overall, but I think the show suffered from it.

The music was obviously done here in L.A., but as JJP said, I think the post production work was done here as well. Audio and video post is so technical, I can't imagine trying to get rookies up to speed. You want people with as much experience as possible, so they have an eye or ear to just _know_ when something isn't looking or sounding right.

I think there's a certain amount of burnout for the producers when they're forced to shoot not only with a less experienced crew, but also away from home for a long period of time. So I imagine for producers with any amount of clout, they do it once, then after that, they're more insistent about either doing it in L.A., or else getting paid more. In the case of one of the guys I mentioned, my guess is he won't be doing that again.


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## Mike Greene (Mar 6, 2022)

Now that I think about it (the topic of production work moving out of town), I'll mention that in the planning stages of what would eventually become Sunset Strings, it was never my intention to record here. L.A. is "too expensive," so Plan A was Eastern Europe. We also looked into various other cities in the U.S. Record it cheap and make a pile of profit. That was the plan. (Like the TV show I described in my other post.)

As I started looking into _all_ the costs involved, though, I realized it was actually better (for me, at least) to do it here. For starters, with all the other places we looked at, options were very limited, and it made me nervous. Would I really like the room? What if the engineer wasn't as good as advertised? What if I needed to swap players?

None of that would be nearly as easy as it would be here. Here in L.A., we checked out a whole bunch of studios to make sure we liked the one we picked. (That part was fun, by the way!) I met with the (freelance) engineer ahead of time in person, so I knew everything would be cool. And in fact, after we started recording, we *did* decide to swap one of the bassists, and ... it was easy! The contractor made a few phone calls and boom, we had a guy who blended better in a sampling context. It's freaking L.A. The town is built to make this easy.

I'm obviously small potatoes compared to studios shooting TV or film, and the cost difference isn't as extreme for me as it would be for them. But for my tiny little world at least, the cost savings of working out of town isn't nearly as attractive after you consider all the additional factors.


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## Wally Garten (Mar 6, 2022)

These posts are surprising to me, at least as far as Atlanta goes. I worked in the film industry there... whew... a LONG time ago. Then, it was truly, "2 or 3 productions and we're tapped out." But now I guess I would find it surprising if that were still true, given the huge amount of growth and the semi-permanent presence of Marvel and Tyler Perry, to say nothing of the seemingly steady supply of other projects. 

I don't have direct experience these days, though, so could totally be true -- especially for post stuff like music.


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## Thomas Costantino (Mar 6, 2022)

aeliron said:


> How is the poop-in-the-streets situation? May be a doable tradeoff if you have a biodiesel engine.



😂 I almost spit up my drink reading this


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## gsilbers (Mar 6, 2022)

jononotbono said:


> There have been many posts on LA and what its like to live there but I'm curious what its like at this moment in time during this Covid time? Is it possible for somebody to be a film composers assistant and get paid enough to afford rent or is it just unrealistic unless you come from wealth? I have no idea what the states of studios are at the minute with Covid but it feels like its eased off compared to last year which felt like the world closed down.
> 
> Would love to hear some stories from people that do live in LA. I have a Green Card and was living in upstate New York for a while but came back to England because of Covid. However, I'm always thinking about LA but I'd like to know more about it and from people that have moved to LA from other parts of America (and the rest of the world) and do actually make a living.
> 
> Jono




I think poeple underestimate the cost of living in LA.

And therefore... many dont see the real way film composers get steady gig or become famous composers.

Someone or something has to finance your stay in LA for at least 2-5 years. The pay, even at remote control is terrible. Mainly because you, as well as hundred of thousands of other composers want to "make it" and there for its an overabundance of composers which means anyone looking for asistant can just dont pay or do minimun wage since its understood those doing the internship or working as an assistant have other ways of paying for rent, utilities, car, insurance, food, and other expensive which easily add to $3000+ a month , which at minimun wage it only gets at best at $2400 a month.
Basic supply and demand.
Ask me if i can find a composer vs someone who can make a downloader manager app.

What ive seen, but not sure its pandemic related, is people just stay 2yrsin LA, rent a studio at/ or work at a place where they are surrounded by many composers and/or movie people and therefor make enough connections to later work from somehwere else. Kinda like a post grad where you pay to learn working lol and make connections with the undustry.

anyways, theres seem to be a lack of film music sound engineers which seems to be a thing you do, so that might be a way "in" and that you can do later from anywhere.


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## gsilbers (Mar 6, 2022)

Wally Garten said:


> These posts are surprising to me, at least as far as Atlanta goes. I worked in the film industry there... whew... a LONG time ago. Then, it was truly, "2 or 3 productions and we're tapped out." But now I guess I would find it surprising if that were still true, given the huge amount of growth and the semi-permanent presence of Marvel and Tyler Perry, to say nothing of the seemingly steady supply of other projects.
> 
> I don't have direct experience these days, though, so could totally be true -- especially for post stuff like music.


yeah atlanta seems to be growing a lot. more so recently as there was a real exuse to leave LA. Houses in LA start at around $800K. And for that maount of money you can buy a house, open a business and still have money left over for cars and "luxuries in atlanta areas only minutes away from prodcution studios. So poeple in LA who find themselves with that much equity started to realize the advantages.
Maybe someon bought a crappy two bedroom house in crappy van nice area of LA for about $300k a few years ago and now valued at 900k and their kids can go to a nice school elsewhere.
Which is exactly the story someone told me about a maid and his husband who cleaned did. Sold the van nuys house and bought a very nice house outside atlanta and opened their bussines and got two nice cars.
And if you have been to van nuys you wodnt be thinking it twice. 

I think a lot of poeple in LA have been waiting for this to happen for a long time. Unions and regulations sure made it help full or everyone to go elsewhere for productions, orchestras, etc.

The only risk i see is the political thing. If georgia passes some wierd anti abortion , anti gay laws thats it. movie studios would say sorry... go to santa fe or st louise.

I wonder how much is going on in atlanta. might be interesting to check it out. I do see a lot of stuff going on there.
And the only thing happening in LA seem to be the santa monica/venice/mar vista area which is hella expensive and traffic a nightmare even at non rush hours.


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## KEM (Mar 6, 2022)

My friend lives by USC and pays $900 a month for rent and lives in a house with 5 other people, I just stayed with him for an entire week back in mid-February and while it’s certainly not ideal if you really don’t mind roommates it’s not terrible, I could certainly see myself doing it if necessary. A small studio apartment will usually start around $1,200 a month and while it’s a bit more expensive I think the privacy is worth the extra cost so that’s probably what I’ll do whenever I decide to make the move out there. My friend had quite a bit of savings when he moved but by now it’s pretty much all gone, he works at Amazon and makes $23 an hour so he isn’t doing too bad considering his current living situation but it certainly isn’t as easy as it is living here in St. Louis, but the wealth of connections in LA just can’t be beat, everybody knows somebody


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## Thomas Costantino (Mar 6, 2022)

E


Mike Greene said:


> Now that I think about it (the topic of production work moving out of town), I'll mention that in the planning stages of what would eventually become Sunset Strings, it was never my intention to record here. L.A. is "too expensive," so Plan A was Eastern Europe. We also looked into various other cities in the U.S. Record it cheap and make a pile of profit. That was the plan. (Like the TV show I described in my other post.)
> 
> As I started looking into _all_ the costs involved, though, I realized it was actually better (for me, at least) to do it here. For starters, with all the other places we looked at, options were very limited, and it made me nervous. Would I really like the room? What if the engineer wasn't as good as advertised? What if I needed to swap players?
> 
> ...



Very insightful. Seems like there’s certainly a lot of perks that outweigh the costs.


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## Alchemedia (Mar 6, 2022)

chillbot said:


> We just hit $6.00.


Same here in the SF Bay Area.


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## chillbot (Mar 6, 2022)

I still think in terms of "40 or 50 bucks" to fill up a tank. (I know it hasn't actually been that in a while.) So I got a bit of sticker shock the other day when it was $115...


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## KEM (Mar 6, 2022)

chillbot said:


> I still think in terms of "40 or 50 bucks" to fill up a tank. (I know it hasn't actually been that in a while.) So I got a bit of sticker shock the other day when it was $115...



Crazy, it’s like $30 to fill up my tank


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## givemenoughrope (Mar 6, 2022)

chillbot said:


> I still think in terms of "40 or 50 bucks" to fill up a tank. (I know it hasn't actually been that in a while.) So I got a bit of sticker shock the other day when it was $115...


It's 40 or 50 for the prius now. More coasting to stop signs now..


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## KEM (Mar 6, 2022)

We all need Tesla’s


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## Thomas Costantino (Mar 6, 2022)

chillbot said:


> I still think in terms of "40 or 50 bucks" to fill up a tank. (I know it hasn't actually been that in a while.) So I got a bit of sticker shock the other day when it was $115...



Same here ! I still do this- especially at the market, after feeling like I got robbed. Back in the day, My first car was a manual shift Honda Civic. $26 would last me over a week. 

One thing I’m not looking forward to is commuting in and around LA... Having traveled there in prior years and networking in NYC, I’ve grown to have great appreciation for the small cites I currently live and work in. 

Providence, Rhode Island is actually very cultured with great schools, art and a ton of history. The population is quite low but enough to have that city vibe. Places are never too crowded and parking is always abundant. Rent is completely reasonable. Walking around and dinning is like having a city playground to yourself. Currently here in Sarasota, FL. Another small city gem. The landscape rivals any Southern Cali coastal city. Providence has its fair share or issues but for the most part both cities feel very safe and extremely clean. 

For those that are looking to get the ball rolling but still aren’t ready for LA, I’ve found these places to be highly advantageous for networking. In RI, it’s incredibly easy to make connections. In a major city your 5-6 people away from your desired network. In Providence you’ll be 1-3 people. And Sarasota is filled with stupid amounts of money from an elder crowd looking to move money into new ventures. 

As for anyone currently live in SoCal, what are some bordering small cities that may be a good jump off point ? Im sure the cost of living won’t change much, but curious to hear options I may not have considered.


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## jmauz (Mar 6, 2022)

> As for anyone currently live in SoCal, what are some bordering small cities that may be a good jump off point ? Im sure the cost of living won’t change much, but curious to hear options I may not have considered.



Tough question to answer when you consider that L.A. _IS_ a bunch of small cities, all squashed together. Some are significantly more expensive to live than others. 

Some people (myself included) consider Southern California more in terms of counties (Ventura, L.A., Orange, San Bernadino, Riverside, etc.). If you're here to be a composer then start by planning to live inside L.A. County and then work in further from there depending on your budget. Knowing where you'll be working will help greatly. 

Living outside of L.A. County will introduce commute challenges that will cancel out any savings you might get from cheaper rent. Add the stress of driving the freeways during rush hour (about 5am to midnight) and it just ain't worth it.

I saw gas for $7.50 today FYI. 

ALL THAT SAID, I don't think it's quite as important to live in L.A. to be a composer as it once was. Honestly, I only still live here because of my drumming career and because my wife and I love it.


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## Thomas Costantino (Mar 6, 2022)

jmauz said:


> Tough question to answer when you consider that L.A. _IS_ a bunch of small cities, all squashed together. Some are significantly more expensive to live than others.
> 
> Some people (myself included) consider Southern California more in terms of counties (Ventura, L.A., Orange, San Bernadino, Riverside, etc.). If you're here to be a composer then start by planning to live inside L.A. County and then work in further from there depending on your budget. Knowing where you'll be working will help greatly.
> 
> ...



Makes sense. Very grounded advice. Much appreciated.


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## Alchemedia (Mar 7, 2022)

KEM said:


> We all need Tesla’s


Nobody needs a Tesla!


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## KEM (Mar 7, 2022)

Alchemedia said:


> Nobody needs a Tesla!



I _NEED _a Tesla!!!


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## cedricm (Mar 7, 2022)

marclawsonmusic said:


> Although there is production happening all over the place, all of the music post (for US productions) is still happening in LA. That's where the studios are headquartered and I doubt that will change anytime soon.


But aren't Netflix & the other streaming powerhouses less LA oriented?


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## marclawsonmusic (Mar 7, 2022)

cedricm said:


> But aren't Netflix & the other streaming powerhouses less LA oriented?


According to my research, the streaming powerhouses are all owned by the big studios.

Netflix is not owned by one of the big five, but for US productions, their production hub (also music post) for original content appears to be in LA.

In non-US markets, I have heard that Netflix does seek out local producers of original content. But that's just anecdotal hearsay.

Google the composer for your favorite (US-based) Netflix or streaming show you will likely find they are in LA.

These are just my observations, of course...


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## Thomas Costantino (Mar 7, 2022)

marclawsonmusic said:


> According to my research, the streaming powerhouses are all owned by the big studios.
> 
> Netflix is not owned by one of the big five, but for US productions, their production hub (also music post) for original content appears to be in LA.
> 
> ...



Very nice lead for us to start researching as well. But considering they’re already established in LA, that’s going to be the case 9 times out of ten. If more and more content is being created elsewhere, will these post jobs migrate as well? 

As stated before by a few, it’s unlikely and there’s pros to having LA be what it’s always been.


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## KEM (Mar 7, 2022)

Thomas Costantino said:


> Very nice lead for us to start researching as well. But considering they’re already established in LA, that’s going to be the case 9 times out of ten. If more and more content is being created elsewhere, will these post jobs migrate as well?
> 
> As stated before by a few, it’s unlikely and there’s pros to having LA be what it’s always been.



I think it could be good for the industry to branch out to other locations, it would make LA less congested and give other locations a viable place for creatives to be. LA essentially has a monopoly on the industry right now


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## Thomas Costantino (Mar 7, 2022)

KEM said:


> I think it could be good for the industry to branch out to other locations, it would make LA less congested and give other locations a viable place for creatives to be. LA essentially has a monopoly on the industry right now



Actually finished up the Val Kilmer documentary.. Very interesting guy. He had this exact sentiment and spent his whole career buying land in New Mexico.. Thousands of Acres ! His dream was to build a new Artist community away from the hectic city. A place where you can connect with nature and harness your craft. Unfortunately his health issues and other plans had forced him to sell the land. 

The idea of this isn’t so far fetched. All it takes is one powerful visionary to connect the dots. The idea of a low cost place for artists to grow and network is much needed. Even if it’s a starting point for us to get to LA. There needs to be a between stage of life that A.) escapes the 9-5 day job/traditional university schooling and B.) allows creatives to grow, network and start earning on their craft. This would also be easier to scout talent.


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## ryst (Mar 7, 2022)

jononotbono said:


> There have been many posts on LA and what its like to live there but I'm curious what its like at this moment in time during this Covid time? Is it possible for somebody to be a film composers assistant and get paid enough to afford rent or is it just unrealistic unless you come from wealth? I have no idea what the states of studios are at the minute with Covid but it feels like its eased off compared to last year which felt like the world closed down.
> 
> Would love to hear some stories from people that do live in LA. I have a Green Card and was living in upstate New York for a while but came back to England because of Covid. However, I'm always thinking about LA but I'd like to know more about it and from people that have moved to LA from other parts of America (and the rest of the world) and do actually make a living.
> 
> Jono


Regarding getting a job as a film composer's assistant, I have no clue as it's not something I'm looking into. I'm sure it's possible, I just have no idea where you would look for something like that.

LA is and has always been about networking. For the last 10 years, that's what I've been doing. I started working on a bunch more film/tv work in the last couple years. I feel like I wouldn't be where I am if I didn't move here. But during the pandemic, I certainly wanted out. There were a lot of reasons for that but I won't get into it. I consider myself very lucky for the path I've gone down so far. But I know this town is quite hard for many people. It all comes down to the drive you have to make something of yourself here, or anywhere really. It's all personal. It works for some and not others. I can only say, stay out of debt if at all possible. We got out of debt and started investing within 6 months of moving here. That, by far, has made things more comfortable.


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## JohnG (Mar 7, 2022)

Los Angeles has to work for your whole life, not just your career. if you arrive here and it wrecks all the other stuff -- pals, romance, health -- it isn't going to work.

I have blended in by being extremely shallow and narcissistic. Plus I love bling so -- duh


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## chillbot (Mar 7, 2022)

JohnG said:


> I have blended in by being extremely shallow and narcissistic.


You and me both. It makes it so easy!


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## Kent (Mar 7, 2022)

Atlanta's got quite a bit of production capability these days. 

Almost zero post opportunities, though.


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## jononotbono (Mar 7, 2022)

For goodness sake. I thought this would be useful. I come


davidanthony said:


> You probably already know this but just in case, being out of the US for greater than a year can be considered "abandonment" of your green card and lead to some awkwardness or even refusal at re-entry. USCIS policies may have softened because of COVID but would prepare yourself all the same if you've been gone for a while.


I certainly am aware of this my friend. Which is why I flew to New York, Spent less than 12 hrs in the Big Apple and flew back the next day just to keep my Green card alive. It was magic. Even the air stewardess recognised me because it turns out, they work on rotation too. Music = whatever it takes 😂


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## jononotbono (Mar 7, 2022)

WTF!? I started this thread to be helpful... to ME

Not a party 😂

Ah.. You bitches...


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## proggermusic (Mar 7, 2022)

Well, this thread is interesting and timely for me. My wife and I own property in Austin (which happened just before it became an utterly impossible thing to accomplish, lucky for us) but we often muse about spending more time in LA since it would be good for both of us... me as a composer/arranger/studio musician and her as a writer/actor/director/etc. We met in NYC, we both did well there, we moved to Austin because I had a good support network here, property was affordable at the time, and the various creative scenes were climbing steeply up, which I suppose they still are. But the gatekeepers for most of the work I'd REALLY like to do are in Los Angeles and probably always will be. So we may just end up strategically spending time with friends there a few times a year, assuming we can actually bounce back from this pandemic (knock on wood, seems like it's happening). 

I can't imagine us trying to sell our place in Austin and buy in LA, though, it just wouldn't be possible. And going back to be renting would be, well, quite stupid. Some more production is moving out here, but they're still using LA musicians and composers for the most part. Maybe that'll change. (I doubt it.)


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## vancomposer (Mar 7, 2022)

Nice to read along! Thanks for all the input... 👍

And also a fellow immigrant/ greencard holder here and living in the US 5 1/2 years now. I came here to enter the film market but wasn't ready to live full time in LA and therefore spent my 1st year in Las Vegas. Certainly to keep costs under better control but also because I feel sort of uncomfortable whenever I am in LA or whatever you want to call this mass of cities. I think it is just way to large for me and gives me this strange feel of anxiety. So because of that and some other personal reasons, the fact that I am single and have no responsibilities except myself and an extensive touring background I went a VERY different path and started vanlife full time and converted a van into a tiny home with a solar powered music studio. After doing this over 4 years now it was certainly the best decision for ME and still blows me away how well it worked out. My plan was also with this lifestyle to spend as much time in LA as I can for networking or even find some work and then get out of there whenever I feel I dont need to be there anymore. I tried this out a bunch of times with short visits pre-COVID but also did some intensive traveling along the western USA to places I always wanted to see. And then in late 2019 I somewhat was planing on making 2020 my first long term LA year and split my time. I already had some camping places established that I could use, primarily on peoples property. Now obviously all those plans felt apart once the pandemic hit. So I did even more traveling around the western country and saw some awesome places. 

NOW this year 2022 however I want to give it another try and relocate down there sometime in May. I can technically stay in someones backyard for as long as I want for a fraction of the cost of a regular living situation. I still believe there is opportunity down there you wont find elsewhere. If my seasonal LA visit cycle will help me to establish something I will find out. Still can't 100% move there and probably never will. Luckily I still make a decent income remotely for European productions so its an experiment I can have.


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## jononotbono (Mar 7, 2022)

I love this.


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## jononotbono (Mar 8, 2022)

Every single step should be walking on Sunshine. We live such incredible lives


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## vancomposer (Mar 8, 2022)

jononotbono said:


> Every single step should be walking on Sunshine. We live such incredible lives


Thats right and I love solar power! 😎☀️


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## jononotbono (Mar 8, 2022)




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## alcorey (Mar 8, 2022)

jononotbono said:


>


You'll need a car - so just make sure you have a mobile rig  


















You'll often walk faster on sunshine than you'll drive


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## Wally Garten (Mar 8, 2022)

alcorey said:


> You'll need a car - so just make sure you have a mobile rig


I can't believe you didn't post the all-time great image of L.A. and its traffic:


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## JohnG (Mar 8, 2022)

proggermusic said:


> I had a good support network here, property was affordable at the time, and the various creative scenes were climbing steeply up,


Wow -- I would be really careful before upsetting all that, especially if you have a happy marriage and your spouse is flourishing. There's nothing more expensive (or tragic) than upsetting that apple cart chasing something that may or may not turn out to be what we hoped for in our daydreams.

I'm sure you must know all that but still. A happy family is a bigger achievement than most other things.

*How Long, and Is It Worth It?*

Los Angeles is dazzling in its way, but I can't help wondering whether tremendous things can happen from afar nowadays, particularly given that Covid, while allegedly "over" -- isn't? You can't meet people in Santa Monica or Burbank if nobody wants to get together socially.

And it's always worth (not just you, all of us) wondering whether if in fact we get exactly what we think we want, whether that would really make us happier or not. Not everyone can stomach working until 2 AM every night for months at a time. Not everyone wants to work on projects with 10-20 people giving "notes" on cues.

*Repotting Takes Years*

Once we snip connections where we are, it can take 3-5 years to sow the same seeds in a new location and cultivate them enough to the point where people trust us with their multi-million dollar productions.


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## vancomposer (Mar 8, 2022)

JohnG said:


> Wow -- I would be really careful before upsetting all that, especially if you have a happy marriage and your spouse is flourishing. There's nothing more expensive (or tragic) than upsetting that apple cart chasing something that may or may not turn out to be what we hoped for in our daydreams.
> 
> I'm sure you must know all that but still. A happy family is a bigger achievement than most other things. (...)


I absolutely AGREE!!

Mine is all overseas and the pandemic has shown us "just hop on a plane" was pretty much impossible for 2 years both ways. Also when you get older and you start having a different sense for time and how precious it is. Seeing you parents getting really old now and a cousin of mine being in the middle of his life all of the sudden GONE, due to COVID.

So I am giving up a lot already on my family to move my career forward and as supportive as they are, every decision has consequences. What I am taking more serious however is my mental health. Some of the cliches like LA can be a very artificial place are true. The pandemic might have put a pause on that for a bit but I am sure eventually it will come back to that. I know people that have the 2-3 jobs to just support the essentials there. And they still are doing that years later and it will wear on you. I am excited however to spend time in LA, to see if it can help to open new doors. But I am glad I have found a balance already that if it doesn't there are things more important in life.

Took me many years though to find that balance.


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## Thomas Costantino (Mar 8, 2022)

proggermusic said:


> Well, this thread is interesting and timely for me. My wife and I own property in Austin (which happened just before it became an utterly impossible thing to accomplish, lucky for us) but we often muse about spending more time in LA since it would be good for both of us... me as a composer/arranger/studio musician and her as a writer/actor/director/etc. We met in NYC, we both did well there, we moved to Austin because I had a good support network here, property was affordable at the time, and the various creative scenes were climbing steeply up, which I suppose they still are. But the gatekeepers for most of the work I'd REALLY like to do are in Los Angeles and probably always will be. So we may just end up strategically spending time with friends there a few times a year, assuming we can actually bounce back from this pandemic (knock on wood, seems like it's happening).
> 
> I can't imagine us trying to sell our place in Austin and buy in LA, though, it just wouldn't be possible. And going back to be renting would be, well, quite stupid. Some more production is moving out here, but they're still using LA musicians and composers for the most part. Maybe that'll change. (I doubt it.)



Sounds like you have a nice foundation to implement a strategy like that. Especially when your spouse is in line with the master plan!

Locking in a piece of real estate is monumental. It’s been a life saver... Have you considered it instead of LA @jononotbono ?

Even with this crazy spike in prices, it may be a better plan to invest in something rather than moving to LA. Setting up a home studio HQ in a small town and building a massive music library may be more worthwhile. Seems like a large leap, but becoming a film Composer takes some serious Entrepreneurial tenacity. Might as well start with an asset that can support you instead of drain you. 

If I could start all over, I would invest in a multi family home: rent from one side will totally pay for all my expenses plus pocket some cash, then invest in a whisper room to make music without bothering the tenants. Then move onto a home for myself while renting both sides of the multi family. Finally rent that house and have three rental incomes to fully support moving to LA.


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## Thomas Costantino (Mar 8, 2022)

vancomposer said:


> Nice to read along! Thanks for all the input... 👍
> 
> And also a fellow immigrant/ greencard holder here and living in the US 5 1/2 years now. I came here to enter the film market but wasn't ready to live full time in LA and therefore spent my 1st year in Las Vegas. Certainly to keep costs under better control but also because I feel sort of uncomfortable whenever I am in LA or whatever you want to call this mass of cities. I think it is just way to large for me and gives me this strange feel of anxiety. So because of that and some other personal reasons, the fact that I am single and have no responsibilities except myself and an extensive touring background I went a VERY different path and started vanlife full time and converted a van into a tiny home with a solar powered music studio. After doing this over 4 years now it was certainly the best decision for ME and still blows me away how well it worked out. My plan was also with this lifestyle to spend as much time in LA as I can for networking or even find some work and then get out of there whenever I feel I dont need to be there anymore. I tried this out a bunch of times with short visits pre-COVID but also did some intensive traveling along the western USA to places I always wanted to see. And then in late 2019 I somewhat was planing on making 2020 my first long term LA year and split my time. I already had some camping places established that I could use, primarily on peoples property. Now obviously all those plans felt apart once the pandemic hit. So I did even more traveling around the western country and saw some awesome places.
> 
> NOW this year 2022 however I want to give it another try and relocate down there sometime in May. I can technically stay in someones backyard for as long as I want for a fraction of the cost of a regular living situation. I still believe there is opportunity down there you wont find elsewhere. If my seasonal LA visit cycle will help me to establish something I will find out. Still can't 100% move there and probably never will. Luckily I still make a decent income remotely for European productions so its an experiment I can have.



You got a serious set of balls ... love it ! Truly a do whatever it takes mentality. Fired me up. Just a reminder that Steven Pressfield did exactly what your doing. He wrote from a van, never gave up and ended with best sellers that became the films 300 and Bagger Vance. Highly recommend his book War of Art for all creatives. 

I’ve done the RV setup before. Also considered the van. Solid State Logic had an amazing F350 mobile studio. They toured the east coast and actually popped in at my friends studio. We did a cool interview and got to play with the new toys on board. Very impressive rig. Add a bed and solar panels and your set !


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## proggermusic (Mar 8, 2022)

@JohnG and @vancomposer – Don't worry, definitely not gonna uproot things! Hah. We do have a great life, and with Austin's explosive growth I currently have as much work as I can handle, as well as a faculty position. We made this move VERY deliberately and with some career-moving strategies in mind (being aware that we'd need to maintain our relationships in NYC and LA while living elsewhere). The odds we ever actually live in LA are slim indeed, and would be dependent on one of us walking into some kind of amazing gig out of the blue – a close friend of ours, for example, moved out there because he started working with major pop/hip hop artists, but he still owns his house in the Austin burbs. And I'd love to meet some cool interdisciplinary creative people involved with TV and games.

The REAL solution is to take my group back out on the road and continue making records/videos like we did before the pandemic hit. That's resulted in more positive results than anything else over the years. We can finally start doing that, knock on wood, now that virus cases are falling.


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## muziksculp (Mar 8, 2022)

The Homelessness problem in California, not just L.A. is not getting any better.

Lots of people living on sidewalks, and FWY underpasses, and in RVs. A sad reality of our times in 2022, add to that the COVID situation, and high crime rates, not sure how these issue will change, to the better, or worse in the coming months, and years.


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## D Halgren (Mar 8, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> The Homelessness problem in California, not just L.A. is not getting any better.
> 
> Lots of people living on sidewalks, and FWY underpasses, and in RVs. A sad reality of our times in 2022, add to that the COVID situation, and high crime rates, not sure how these issue will change, to the better, or worse in the coming months, and years.


That's the whole west coast, and likely all large American cities.


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## mrnanovideos (Mar 8, 2022)

Pretty much everything's back to normal, for the most part, except that a lot of businesses are still WFH and will probably stay that way for the foreseeable future. But in terms of events happening and places open, it's pretty much back to normal. They county just lifted that mask mandate and will most likely be dropping the tax mandate as well (businesses rarely even check anymore anyways). Even the SCL is having their awards event in person this week. I've found that mostly everyone is willing to meet in person at least to some degree, but most are entirely comfortable. Of course wages and cost of living are an entirely different conversation, but yeah it's mostly back to normal IMO.


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## vancomposer (Mar 10, 2022)

Thomas Costantino said:


> You got a serious set of balls ... love it ! Truly a do whatever it takes mentality. Fired me up. Just a reminder that Steven Pressfield did exactly what your doing. He wrote from a van, never gave up and ended with best sellers that became the films 300 and Bagger Vance. Highly recommend his book War of Art for all creatives.
> 
> I’ve done the RV setup before. Also considered the van. Solid State Logic had an amazing F350 mobile studio. They toured the east coast and actually popped in at my friends studio. We did a cool interview and got to play with the new toys on board. Very impressive rig. Add a bed and solar panels and your set !


Thanks, my set gets cracks sometimes though. The distance to family and quick support system in case you have serious problems is the worst feeling. However I do LOVE the USA and feel a creative freedom here that I didn't have back in Germany.

Thanks for the links, will check that out now! 🙋‍♂️


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## vancomposer (Mar 10, 2022)

mrnanovideos said:


> Pretty much everything's back to normal, for the most part, except that a lot of businesses are still WFH and will probably stay that way for the foreseeable future. But in terms of events happening and places open, it's pretty much back to normal. They county just lifted that mask mandate and will most likely be dropping the tax mandate as well (businesses rarely even check anymore anyways). Even the SCL is having their awards event in person this week. I've found that mostly everyone is willing to meet in person at least to some degree, but most are entirely comfortable. Of course wages and cost of living are an entirely different conversation, but yeah it's mostly back to normal IMO.


Good to hear, will certainly make my own experiences beginning this summer. Good luck out there!


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## aeliron (Mar 10, 2022)

vancomposer said:


> Nice to read along! Thanks for all the input... 👍
> 
> and started vanlife full time and converted a van into a tiny home with a solar powered music studio. After doing this over 4 years now it was certainly the best decision for ME and still blows me away how well it worked out. My plan was also with this lifestyle to spend as much time in LA as I can for networking or even find some work and then get out of there whenever I feel I dont need to be there anymore.


Well, for one thing, from your profile pic, looks like you need a bigger van.


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## vancomposer (Mar 10, 2022)

aeliron said:


> Well, for one thing, from your profile pic, looks like you need a bigger van.


That's what she said. 😉


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## carlc (Mar 10, 2022)

Wally Garten said:


> I can't believe you didn't post the all-time great image of L.A. and its traffic:


This was a bit of a surprise for me back in 2018. I was always worried about earthquakes out here, but we have had to evacuate our home twice in the past 5 years for wildfires. It turned out to be fine, but there were houses less than 1/2 mile away that were totally destroyed. 

I now keep everything important backed up to a small NAS drive that I can grab on my way out the door


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## carlc (Mar 10, 2022)

Some photos from the end of my block in 2018…


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## mat1 (Mar 11, 2022)

People I know that are happy and doing well in LA had a property back in London that could cover or at least take the sting out of the rental prices. 

I always liked the idea of LA but there is something about the US in general that feels a bit tense right now. I went to the CVS downtown to buy some medicine and I couldn't believe what I was seeing. It's really quite bad how the homeless and mentally ill are treated.


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## vancomposer (Mar 11, 2022)

mat1 said:


> People I know that are happy and doing well in LA had a property back in London that could cover or at least take the sting out of the rental prices.
> 
> I always liked the idea of LA but there is something about the US in general that feels a bit tense right now. I went to the CVS downtown to buy some medicine and I couldn't believe what I was seeing. It's really quite bad how the homeless and mentally ill are treated.


Most of the general US is doing fine. I have done enough intensive traveling to all sorts of places and met plenty of people to get my own impressions. There are undeniably hot spots like major cities where some things are not good, even going very bad at the moment, totally agree with you on that. But the US was never a prime example on anything health related or dealing with social injustice. But other then that this is still a phenomenal country with tons of opportunity.


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## Andrajas (May 7, 2022)

OK, so I've been called to an interview with a game studio in LA for an in-house position as a composer, working on some very well known titles. I know I may be a little ahead, but I would like to go into the interview knowing more about what kind of salaries I need to have to not just get by, but actually live decent? I will not accept anything less as I have a good life here in Sweden, but this job may actually be quite exiting. But again, its not worth lowering my standards of living for it. 

Anyone have a number for me?


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## Kent (May 7, 2022)

Andrajas said:


> OK, so I've been called to an interview with a game studio in LA for an in-house position as a composer, working on some very well known titles. I know I may be a little ahead, but I would like to go into the interview knowing more about what kind of salaries I need to have to not just get by, but actually live decent? I will not accept anything less as I have a good life here in Sweden, but this job may actually be quite exiting. But again, its not worth lowering my standards of living for it.
> 
> Anyone have a number for me?


here's a good starting place:

https://livingwage.mit.edu/

a few other sources:









The Cost of Living in Los Angeles - SmartAsset


Considering a move to the City of Angels? You'll want to know the cost of living in Los Angeles from housing and utilities to the price of a bottle of wine




smartasset.com










Poverty Guidelines for Los Angeles County, California


Almanac facts, information and trivia about Los Angeles County, its people, cities and communities.




www.laalmanac.com





Note that some of this info is likely a bit out of date re: inflation/'real prices'


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## GtrString (May 7, 2022)

All this green card talk makes me blue.

I'd rather do the small time cues, get ripped off, and still be able to pay the rent where I am.

Call me unbitious.


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## telecode101 (May 7, 2022)

Kent said:


> here's a good starting place:
> 
> https://livingwage.mit.edu/
> 
> ...


 How does one use this really? I am looking at Colorado and comparing to Los Angeles. For the same type of professions, the salaries are very similar. Does that mean cost of living is very similar in both places?


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## chillbot (May 7, 2022)

GtrString said:


> unbitious


This is my new favorite word.


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## carlc (May 7, 2022)

Andrajas said:


> OK, so I've been called to an interview with a game studio in LA for an in-house position as a composer, working on some very well known titles. I know I may be a little ahead, but I would like to go into the interview knowing more about what kind of salaries I need to have to not just get by, but actually live decent? I will not accept anything less as I have a good life here in Sweden, but this job may actually be quite exiting. But again, its not worth lowering my standards of living for it.
> 
> Anyone have a number for me?


It’s great to do your research and have an idea of where you need to be… of course, you shouldn’t offer a number to your potential employer since you could be leaving $$ on the table. Let them throw out the first number. 

There are a lot of factors that could cause huge swings in the amount needed. Is the role full time on site or can it be part time remote? How much of a commute is reasonable for you? Typical ranges are 30-120 minutes. Note that public transportation in LA is extremely limited, even by US standards. Are you planning to relocate alone or with a family? Do you need to be in an area with decent schools? 

If you can be remote some of the time, then taking on a longer commute may be ok. Housing (even renting) in the LA area is expensive, so going further out can drop the cost significantly.


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## JohnG (May 7, 2022)

carlc said:


> going further out can drop the cost significantly.


Excellent advice.

Don’t neglect Malibu either. You will spend a lot of time on Pacific Coast Highway, but if your hours are not 8-5 or something “regular,” it’s much cheaper than the middle of Los Angeles, and a better commute than way out East.

Unfortunately, if you _do_ have regular hours, the commute is less attractive, but that’s true from any outlying area.


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## charlieclouser (May 7, 2022)

A buddy of mine lived in a big loft in downtown LA for many years. Grew to hate it - too grungy. Moved to Woodland Hills (which is in between Calabasas and Topanga, about as far west as you can get and still say you're in LA). Liked it better.

Even pre-pandemic, he realized that no directors were coming over to his place, and everything was remote via Zoom / Source Connect / etc. So he....

Moved to Hawaii! 

He's building a house from the ground up, and the build cost is around $500 per square foot, even in the middle of the ocean. You'd have to cut some serious corners to build for that price in LA. Most new residential of a decent quality is $700-1,000 per foot. And the land was MUCH cheaper. This was a surprise to me as I thought for sure Hawaii costs would be double the mainland. And for the price he paid for the empty lot in Hawaii, in a gated community with ocean view, nice wide streets, and fast internet, was what you'd pay for a postage stamp of dirt in a crap area way north in the Valley in LA. Surprised me too.

He's still in a rented house out there while the build takes place, but I do Zooms with him all the time and the island internet is fine. They even have Google Fiber in lots of areas! 

Now, I'm not using his example to suggest moving to Hawaii, just as further evidence that for many folks it now matters less where you are physically located. And pandemic proved this. He was able to sell his LA house for 1.5x what he paid five years prior, partly because so many people wanted to move out of Hollywood and out to the 'burbs once they realized they could WFH etc.

He's well-established, in his sixties, and isn't doing AAA features or grinding out three network series at a time. He does HBO limited series, documentaries, and stuff like that, so not at the top of the heap but not scrabbling in the dirt either. His kids are grown and out of the house, just him and the wife. So while that example doesn't really apply for someone getting started or establishing a foothold or whatever, it's just further evidence that the pandemic and Zoom proved that, for some folks, location matters less than it might have 3-5 years ago. 

Hell, I just did a cable movie last fall and I didn't see anyone in person the whole time. Might as well have been on Mars - if they have Google Fiber on Mars that is...


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## Kent (May 7, 2022)

telecode101 said:


> How does one use this really? I am looking at Colorado and comparing to Los Angeles. For the same type of professions, the salaries are very similar. Does that mean cost of living is very similar in both places?


Salaries are what you put in your pocket.

Cost of living is what you take out of your pocket.

If in your area your salary is above your cost of living, great!

If not, uh oh.

Since the career (and therefore average salary) is already known in this case (and is a useless number anyways, here), ignore the salary section & use the cost of living section.


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## JJP (May 7, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> Even pre-pandemic, he realized that no directors were coming over to his place, and everything was remote via Zoom / Source Connect / etc. So he....


On the other end of that...

I orchestrated, did music prep, and produced the recording session for a video game last year where the composer and developer were in Europe. We have never met in person. However, I had to be in LA because I had to be at the sessions and manage the production.

A few weeks ago I did music prep and was librarian for a film session in LA where the composer was on Zoom from Berlin, the orchestrator from London, and the director from Toronto.

Conversely, I've done work for Disney for over 15 years, lived within walking distance for most of that time, and still rarely see anybody in person. Yet, pre-pandemic I made a point of stopping by the Disney lot at least once per year so we could all go for a friendly lunch and talk in person. It's good for us to remind each other that there is a human being on the other end of the wire.



Kent said:


> If in your area your salary is above your cost of living, great!
> 
> If not, uh oh.


@Andrajas This is very important, but don't fall into the trap of your salary being only a little over your cost of living. That is dangerous. If your costs or income change, you won't have any savings as a buffer. We work in a volatile industry, so planning ahead is vital.

Ideally, it's recommended that no more than 1/3 of your income should go towards housing, leaving 2/3 for other expenses, savings, and discretionary spending. However many people have difficulty achieving that in LA when they are starting because of the high housing costs. Nonetheless, it's a good ratio to keep in mind when considering any salary offer.

Also remember that there is no government healthcare in the USA, and it's common for employer-sponsored heathcare to require you to pay at least some costs. Look carefully at the health plans that are part of any job offer. Ask questions if you don't understand the benefits.


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## joebaggan (May 7, 2022)

Honestly can't believe anyone would live in LA. A few days visit is plenty for me. Way overcrowded and expensive, fires, wasting 1/2 your life in a car with obscene traffic, pollution, fakeness all around. Long live the pacific northwest!


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## carlc (May 7, 2022)

JohnG said:


> Excellent advice.
> 
> Don’t neglect Malibu either. You will spend a lot of time on Pacific Coast Highway, but if your hours are not 8-5 or something “regular,” it’s much cheaper than the middle of Los Angeles, and a better commute than way out East.
> 
> Unfortunately, if you _do_ have regular hours, the commute is less attractive, but that’s true from any outlying area.


There are nice areas to the West, just outside of "The Valley"... Calabasas, Agoura Hils, Westlake Village, Oak Park, etc. If you want to go even further West, the cost drops off slightly more (Thousand Oaks, Moorpark, Simi Valley). From out there, you can take 118 into LA. The areas to the West of LA are generally nicer than the areas to the East, IMHO.


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## charlieclouser (May 7, 2022)

joebaggan said:


> Honestly can't believe anyone would live in LA. A few days visit is plenty for me. Way overcrowded and expensive, fires, wasting 1/2 your life in a car with obscene traffic, pollution, fakeness all around. Long live the pacific northwest!


Well, that's true only for some areas and some lifestyles. I almost never drive, so rarely do I experience traffic problems. My daily driver is 16 years old and only has 90k miles on the clock! A tank of $6/gallon gas lasts me a month or two, even with a 6.1L v8 that gets 18mpg, and then only if I don't put my foot down.

And I'm in the freakin' wilderness out here, with 26 foot glass walls that look out across a completely empty and green canyon. No neighbor's houses visible except from one window in our laundry room. (and both of those neighbors are audio professionals, purely by coincidence, so no noise complaints when tracking drums!) I'm still only 7 minutes from the grocery stores and only 12 minutes from In-N-Out Burger (I've timed it), which is a crucial measurement in LA!

Pollution? Never heard of it. Not out here anyway. Clear blue skies 364 days a year (it does rain one day a year, hence 364 not 365). Never seen an Air Quality Index above 45 where I live, usually it's in the 30's (37 today). CA Smog regulations do not mess around, and they work. Glad it's not the seventies still, with leaded gas and no emissions controls! (Also glad that my 1970 'Cuda with the 440ci v8 is emissions exempt - they know I'm only gonna drive it for about an hour each weekends) Drought and potential water restrictions are a worry if you have a big lawn with irrigation, but I don't. All drought-tolerant here. Brushfires are a worry I guess, but not so much for me; my house is concrete and steel, and we clear brush to a radius of 100' every year so the FD loves me. Brushfire insurance is an expense, but at least I don't need flood insurance! And people in Tarzana / Encino / Van Nuys / Hollywood / N. Hollywood don't need brushfire insurance, it's only us wilderness dwellers that need it really.

Fakeness? I wouldn't know - I never see anyone but my friends, most of whom I've known for 20+ years.

But, yeah, if you're living in mid-city, Hollywood, or the Valley, and you need to get to Santa Monica every single day so you can pick all the brown M&Ms out of the bowls at Remote Control, you do have to pick where you live with traffic in mind for sure. 

I've lived all over the country and travelled all over the world, and I still love LA!

Canyon carving though Malibu, sooo many awesome restaurants, 90 minutes to Big Bear for skiing... is LA the best place in the world? Maybe not. But it gets to 95% as good as the sum total of any five other places. Good enough for me.


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## Mike Greene (May 7, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> I've lived all over the country and travelled all over the world, and I still love LA!


I hear you on that. I haven't seen a client in person in years, and even Realitone employees all have moved elsewhere. (Do I really smell that bad???) Remote work is totally doable, so we could live anywhere now (the central California coast is particularly tempting), but ... there's just too much I love about L.A.. Beaches, theater, the music scene, sports, the weather ... it really is a great place.

But ... while I agree that an established composer probably doesn't need to be here, I will say that even in the age of Zoom and fast internet, if I were a young pup hoping to break into the business (and *if* I could afford it), I would _still_ come to Los Angeles, simply because it gives the highest odds of _meeting_ people. My experiences might not be typical, but these are all things that happened to me, and would have been less likely anywhere else:

The first record I ever played on (and met some cool people from) was because my next door neighbor was a DJ who got hired to produce a rap record and he didn't know any other keyboard players. Sounds insane, I know, but that's not the only time I've gotten gigs like that. (Meeting Cypress Hill was similarly insane.) It's one of the reasons I specifically moved to the West Hollywood area, since there were so many "up and coming" types that lived there.

The first commercial I ever scored was because the director was part of a weekly poker game I was in. (I didn't even know he was a director!) He didn't like the composer Mattel sent him (it was a Hot Wheels commercial), and he knew I was a real rock and roll guy, so he asked if I'd do it. I was focused on producing (records) and songwriting, but it sounding like fun, so I did it, and it was a ton of fun, plus the commercial won some awards, so I met a ton of people from that. The director and I became friends, which paid off later when he got a call from his brother in law in Seattle, who needed a composer for a "Science Guy" pilot.

My studio neighbors had a video production place, and they were editing some stuff for David Bowie's manager. The manager asked if they knew a place where he could play some old 2" reels to see what was on them, so they sent him to me. I did some rough mixes to cassette for him and as he looked around at my place (of course I had turned on all my synths ahead of time so the lights would be blinking impressively), he mentioned that David would be coming to town and would I be interested in doing some production work with him for some demos. Hell yes! We got along great and I wound up working on a whole bunch of stuff. (Black Tie - White Noise, Real Cool World, and I also put together some wedding music for Iman.) David even asked if I'd be open to him investing in the studio I have now. (Which I was starting to build at the time.) To this day, my wife is pissed that I said no.

I got the theme for Sleeper Cell because the producer's son and my son were friends, so we were too, so he was more or less forced to listen to my demos. (Which was a tough sell, because before that, he knew I did a zillion Barbie commercials, which is totally not the direction of the show.)

Mind you, these stories are over the course of years, not all in the first month of being here, so it's not like everyone I bumped into at the supermarket was offering me gigs. But they are uniquely Los Angeles stories, so there are real benefits to being here. Although, as others have said, there are costs, too ...


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## charlieclouser (May 7, 2022)

Mike, I totally agree. It's just too easy to meet and find people in "the biz" here. They're practically falling out of the trees! For anyone on the way up and looking to immerse themselves and make connections, there's no substitute for LA.

Completely by coincidence, two of my three neighbors are audio people - one is the guy who's mixed all of Tom Petty's live albums for the last few decades, and the other is a re-recording mixer on the stage at Warner Bros.

I met the Tom Petty guy shortly after we moved to this house, at the semi-annual brush fire awareness / neighborhood evacuation planning get together. Had no idea he was mixing Petty across the ravine from me.

I knew my other neighbor from the same brush fire meetings, knew he was an audio guy, but didn't really know much more than that - until I was doing my routine pre-dub tech call to the stage to talk about how many stems, how many surrounds, etc. on the score I was about to print. I got the number for the stage, called 'em up, and dude picks up the phone like, "Hey Charlie. What's up man?" I was a little confused, but said, "Hi, my name is blah blah and I'll be delivering a score to your stage in a couple of weeks, and I just wanted to talk tech specs and stuff..." He was like, "Yeah, I know. It's Dan. Your NEIGHBOR. I'm the lead mixer on that film." Took me a minute to glom onto the fact that yes, the mixer on the stage was the neighbor whose pool I'd been lounging beside the month before.

All of the guys from every band in history live within a 45 minute drive (even in traffic). Even out here in the sticks, , people like Scott Ian from Anthrax is half a mile down the road, Cliff Martinez is up on the mesa, Uncle Al Jourgenson is maybe six miles down the hill, and on the way to his house you drive right by Michael Boddicker's place. Pretty much everyone I've ever made a record with, even the guys from my years in NYC, are out here. Someone is always having a screening of their indie film, there's always an SCL (Society of Composers and Lyricists) meetup happening, and then there's Richard Gibbs' Composer Breakfast Club:









Composers Breakfast Club


The Composers Breakfast Club began in 2013 in Malibu, CA. There are featured presenters every week. All are invited to attend and partake. Being a composer is not a requirement - indeed, many regulars are actors, singers, engineers, producers, and even the odd architect or two. Name tags will always




www.composersbreakfastclub.org





.... which is a great way to network by the beach in Malibu (it's virtual since Covid, but hopefully will start up in-person soon), and we even have our own mini-version in Topanga. Then there's the NAMM show, SynthPlex, Perfect Circuit, Vintage King, more Sam Ash and Banjo Center stores than you'll ever need, Rosen Sound for your vintage synth repairs (and rentals!), the awesome Pro Drum Shop, and tons of luthiers and custom guitar shops. S.I.R, Third Encore, and Mates rehearsal spaces, gear lockers, cartage.... it's all here. Studios? Fuhgeddaboutit. East-West, United (formerly Ocean Way), Capitol, Conway, Cherokee.... endless.

Need a custom pedalboard built for tour? Custom road cases? A lighting truss? A rental on a MemoryMoog and a vintage u47 or 251? North Hollywood baby. Drive on over, no shipping needed. Maybe stop by Perfect Circuit on the way back, play with 1,000 EuroRack modules, and bring a couple home with you right then and there.

Can't swing a broken DX7 without hitting a musician or composer. Book a rehearsal space at Mates and guaranteed you'll run into somebody whose records you own. And of course there's the organized intern program at RCP and Bleeding Fingers, and many other smaller composers have similar programs. 30-60-90 days to prove you're worthy, then the paychecks start. Nowadays, with that durn internet and all, it's waaayyy easier then back in the pre-cellphone, 1-800-SkyPage era when I got here.

So, yeah. For anyone who's not in their sixties and thinking of semi-retirement in Hawaii, LA is still the epicenter and worth the expense / hassle / risk. It's downright exhilarating to be just down the street from so much action. Even at my advanced age, I still feel the rush. Whenever I spend time outside the bubble, I miss it.

Hell, I came here from NYC to work a one-month gig for a tv-movie score with the composer who'd hired me out of Sam Ash 48th st., and I wound up never leaving! I made a decent living driving around Mandeville Canyon and the Palisades with my MPC-60 doing drum programming for hit-making songwriters, and those were just late-eighties demo writing sessions! How'd I find those gigs? An old high school band-mate (from Vermont!) who had moved here and was engineering those writing sessions. How'd I find NIN? And old college buddy who was producing music videos. At no point did I submit a resume or look in the classifieds or have a website / TikTok / Facebook / SnapCloudChatBook. All I had was a pager, address book, an MPC, and a crappy but reliable car.

Entertainment shit just falls out of the sky here, but if you want it to land on your head you have to be on the street when it drops.


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## imusic (May 8, 2022)

I like LA ! Looking forward to spend time there in fall …

(used to life in Santa Monica)


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## Markrs (May 8, 2022)

I love hearing about the music life both in the past and now in LA from @charlieclouser, @Mike Greene and others. I just feels such a world away from a small place in England. Even though I am in my mid 40s with a really good career, that pays well, and I enjoy, I still suddenly have that desire to be a part of that scene. There is something exciting, and energetic about it, that sense that anything could happen from one day to the next.

I think if I was young and passionate about music, I would have taken the risk. As the saying goes, "most people don't regret the chances you take, only the ones you didn't".

Plus, with so many composers on this forum based there, I'm sure a few would be happy to go for a coffee and help you orientate yourself into the community. 

It is a ridiculously competitive industry that probably doesn't pay well enough, but if you have the passion and desire, then I think it is worth the risk.

On the flip side there are plenty doing Library/Stock music that are able to have a nice balanced life anywhere in the world and that is also an awesome thing to be able to do.


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## davidanthony (May 8, 2022)

Andrajas said:


> what kind of salaries I need to have to not just get by, but actually live decent? I will not accept anything less as I have a good life here in Sweden, but this job may actually be quite exiting. But again, its not worth lowering my standards of living for it.
> 
> Anyone have a number for me?


If you rank standard of living/quality of life as equal to or above career opportunities, then LA may not be the best move for you right now (and I say that as someone who has lived here over half of my life and just bought a home here).

The reason being that LA is going through some pretty fundamental economic shifts right now. The real estate market, both rental and purchase, is at an all time high. Prices have been up year over year and even jumped 5-10% in the past few _months. _Whether it's an unsustainable bubble and things will level out or even crash remains to be seen, but at the present a number of people I know who are less established in the creative industry are effectively forced to find living arrangements farther outside the city.

If you don't have to go into a workplace regularly, and/or don't mind spending an hour or two (or more, if there's an accident on your route!) in a car every day, then moving farther out isn't so bad. But if you do have to commute, the price of gas is also at an all time high (very challenging to find anything for under $5 a gallon right now), and new and used car prices are also at all time highs. Inflation is also driving up the price of groceries, too. So it's safe to say that the cost of living is about 10-15% more expensive than it was even a short while ago, and there's a non-zero chance that we find ourselves in the middle of a genuine recession in the next six months to a year.

Now for some hard numbers for you: 

Assuming you're a single person with no dependents and you rent (not own) a home.

A salary of 225,000 per year gets you ~9,220 dollars per month takehome pay after factoring in taxes, retirement, and healthcare contributions. 

Your costs would look something like:

Monthly rent: $1,000 - $6,000. This number depends on whether you want to live with alone or with roommates, in an older place or a new building with amenities, and location. Check out https://www.padmapper.com/apartments/los-angeles-ca for some real world examples)

Transit expenses: $200 - $1,500. Live somewhere walkable or with public transit (these neighborhoods do exist, but they're quite expensive!) and you can reduce your expenses to only using rideshare/public transit. Lease or buy a car and you're looking at $400+ for something basic after lease and insurance. Want a nicer car? $600+. Really nice? $1,000+. Then add gas (unless it's an electric, then add electricity, unless you can get free charging), and the cost of the occasional rideshare to go out.

Food: $200 - $2,000. Depends on where you fall on the Ramen v. Michelin scale. For reference, dinner for 2 at a Michelin restaurant in a nice place is around $250 without alcohol. Not sure how that compares to Sweden (I remember being food being quite expensive when I was there a few years ago, so perhaps this is the one area where you save!)

Health: $0 - $500. Hopefully you have good/free coverage through your employer and no medication needs, but if you don't, then things can start to add up really fast. Healthcare costs have been the biggest area of surprise for my immigrant wife (fortunately she has fantastic coverage through work so doesn't have to pay them, but medical emergencies here can costs tens of thousands of dollars without the right coverage, so it's not a trivial consideration). 

Misc: $0 - $1,000. 

Take the middle of all those ranges, and you're looking at $3,000 dollars per month left over, which is decent and enough to save up for major unanticipated expenses. But whether the middle of all these ranges gets you close to the life you have in Sweden, I'm not so sure. Want the high end of those ranges? You're maxed out and will need to ask for something closer to $300k.

All that being said, for the reasons outlined by Charlie and Mike above, there's really no place I'd rather be as the combination of people and geography are unmatched anywhere else in the world. So if you're up for taking a chance, and you can return to Sweden without taking too much of a hit to your career if things don't pan out here, then I would take the opportunity.


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## mat1 (May 8, 2022)

Mike Greene said:


> It's one of the reasons I specifically moved to the West Hollywood area, since there were so many "up and coming" types that lived there.


What’s the area for up and comers nowadays? Silverlake/echo park maybe?

Love hearing your stories @Mike Greene and @charlieclouser . Makes me want to scratch that itch one day if only for the winter sun.


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## charlieclouser (May 8, 2022)

Back to the original question in the thread title - what's it like living in LA in 2022?

• Expensive. Rent / real estate is bonkers. Just beyond all reason. Rent, buy, it doesn't matter. It's insane.

• Expensive. Gas prices are the highest in the land.

• Expensive. Dinner for two at In-N-Out Burger = $20. Dinner for two at a nice place = $100+.

• Expensive. Besides the hard costs of real estate, ancillary costs like brush fire insurance (if you need it) are just wild. My previous insurer (AIG) got hit so hard with claims after the big Woolsey fire that they just folded up their tent and ceased doing business in CA altogether. It was a slog to find a replacement carrier inside the 30 days notice that AIG gave us. And the premiums, once we did find a carrier? You don't wanna know. But unless you live out in the wilderness in Topanga or the Malibu canyons you won't need it.

But it's still possible to find a way. And you do get that electricity from being just down the street from the center of the action, even if you're on the outside looking in. And although it's a bit abstract, I reckon that's a big part the American experience in general, and the LA experience for creatives - the boundless optimism. The idea that anything is possible. The sky's the limit. In all the places I've lived, I could pretty clearly see the ceiling, the limit to what might be achievable - but not in LA. The story of the Rick Rubin types who start a record label in their dorm room and rise to the level of industry titan is no longer a New York Story™. These days that story is quintessentially Los Angeles. (and of course Rick is in LA now).

And even though I never really aspired to be an HZ or a Rick Rubin (my tastes and abilities are a bit too left of center for that to be realistic), the simple fact that someone *could*, and that someone *DID* do that, added some accelerant to my fire. 

So that's an undefinable, unquantifiable aspect that might add energy and enthusiasm for some folks, at some phases in their journey. Plus, it's harder to feel beaten down by life when you're strolling along the beach on a beautiful day eating a street taco (even if the taco was $6). And LA has 364 beautiful days a year (like I said, it does rain one day per year!). Even when I was broke like a joke, I still loved LA. 

Thing is, once you're here, the costs for enjoying the amenities is the same whether you're rich or poor. Example: in Santa Monica, public parking in the big structures or on the beach lots is free for the first 90 minutes, and max out at around $20 for a whole day - and beach lots are totally free after 5:30pm until sunset. Takes a while to figure out the loopholes to not paying out the wazoo for every single thing in LA, but there are a lot of loopholes. If you live the DoorDash / Uber lifestyle you'll be draining cash like crazy, but if you have a half-decent, shaggy-but-reliable car that gets decent mileage it's not too bad. Sure there are a lot of Teslas on the roads, but a LOT more Priuses (Priuii?). I don't know anyone who daily drives a fancy-ass car, except my business manager (maybe that should concern me....).

TL;DR = If you're young, resilient, and optimistic enough to not notice or care that your dresser is a $99 floor model from Ikea, and that your car has a big scratch down the side, you'll be fine. Maybe if you're older, have kids, or just plain value comfort and stability over quote-unquote "boundless opportunity", it might not look as attractive. But that's okay, LA will be here if and when you're ready.


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## KerrySmith (May 8, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> TL;DR = If you're young, resilient, and optimistic enough to not notice or care that your dresser is a $99 floor model from Ikea, and that your car has a big scratch down the side, you'll be fine. Maybe if you're older, have kids, or just plain value comfort and stability over quote-unquote "boundless opportunity", it might not look as attractive. But that's okay, LA will be here if and when you're ready.


key point, as it ever was throughout the last several decades, is if you’re (young and) hungry and relentlessly live the hustle, and maybe know some people who know some people, or if you come with a financial leg up and hustle, then you might have a chance (assuming you can deliver when called upon) to rise up into the firmament, and make it your place.


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## vancomposer (May 8, 2022)

GtrString said:


> All this green card talk makes me blue.
> 
> I'd rather do the small time cues, get ripped off, and still be able to pay the rent where I am.
> 
> Call me unbitious.





chillbot said:


> This is my new favorite word.


I am moving to LA 1 week and will be living in my car. 

I am very bitious I guess! 😁


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## vancomposer (May 8, 2022)

Andrajas said:


> OK, so I've been called to an interview with a game studio in LA for an in-house position as a composer, working on some very well known titles. I know I may be a little ahead, but I would like to go into the interview knowing more about what kind of salaries I need to have to not just get by, but actually live decent? I will not accept anything less as I have a good life here in Sweden, but this job may actually be quite exiting. But again, its not worth lowering my standards of living for it.
> 
> Anyone have a number for me?


Since you are from Sweden, I assume you also need a work visa if you don't have a sponsoring avenue by a US spouse. And probably some moving costs if you plan on relocating with gear and possible family. So in case they want to hire YOU that would be a topic top discuss who will pay for those expenses. You can even have a future Greencard sponsoring by your employer included into your contract. Not only again it is about costs, but also to somewhat have a long term plan to eventually stay here for good. The reason that is also important is that usually when it is a time restricted non-immigrant visa tied to that company not only they somewhat have a control over your life, you cant usually do freelance work beside, but also when you loose the job then you have to leave the country.


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## vancomposer (May 8, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> Mike, I totally agree. It's just too easy to meet and find people in "the biz" here. They're practically falling out of the trees! For anyone on the way up and looking to immerse themselves and make connections, there's no substitute for LA. (...)


Exactly the reason why I am moving there now. Thanks to all of you for underlining this so much again. I still believe for making those connections there is nothing better then to meet someone in person first and then maybe later move on to remote work. I have been to LA a bunch of times for testing it out and I NEVER had the feeling I will EVER really like it there since I don't like being in a large city BUT I am willing to suck it up for while and work on finding ways for a mental health balance, while I pursue my goals and dreams.


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## telecode101 (May 9, 2022)

Real estate is expensive everywhere. I was just chatting with my mother in law for mothers day .. about the place they live that they will have to move out of as they can't walk up and down stairs anymore. The place probably goes for over 2 million. They originally bought it for $12,000.

My understanding on the culture industry (film ,movies, music) is it is and always has been highly geographically centered -- you need to be in the 2 or 3 key cities where pretty much all the work is being negotiated and done. Music composing might be more flexible. I keep seeing some fairly big composers who live out in weird far out places. But these are people that built their careers early on.


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## Mike Greene (May 9, 2022)

mat1 said:


> What’s the area for up and comers nowadays? Silverlake/echo park maybe?


I should have clarified that I was in West Hollywood not for composing, but because I came to L.A. to be a rock star. (That didn't happen, obviously, but that was why I came here.) This was the mid 80s, and since the storied Sunset Strip was in West Hollywood, it was the place I figured I had to be.

If I were moving to L.A. now, West Hollywood would still be nice, and it's very central, but it's obviously not the rock mecca that it was. For composing, Silverlake sounds good to me. The Valley is good, too, although I'd lean south and maybe east. I'm partial to Studio City, not just because we live there, but because I think it's the highest concentration of "industry" people, aside from Santa Monica or Topanga. Cost is an obvious factor, though.

One problem with more expensive areas (other than the "more expensive" part), is that in ritzy areas, your neighbors are less likely to be "up and coming." Stephen Spielberg would be a fun neighbor, but the odds of him actually hiring me to score his next movie would still be zero, even if I lived next door.

Now that I think about it, I think the exact area is less important than simply getting out of the house. Poker games, golf, kids' school events, whatever. Heck, when my son started school, I tried to convince my accountant to let us deduct his tuition as a business expense, because the networking opportunities were insane.

I started typing some stories about that (as we all know, I can go on and on when it comes to my favorite topic - me!), but I realize I should be careful that I don't paint too glowing a picture. With my son's schools, for instance, I've met lots of cool people, including directors and producers, a couple of which turned into gigs. But I don't go to these school events (or games or whatever) with networking in mind, because that wouldn't be very fun. Plus, realistically, if I'm chatting with some producer about a period piece he's doing, there's no way I'm going to convince him that I, a rock and roller who stumbled into Barbie and Hip Hop, am the perfect guy to give him his orchestral score. Especially since people at that level almost always already _have_ a guy. I'd rather just enjoy the conversation.

The truth is that even in Los Angeles, even if your kids go to an artsy progressive school, even if you're invited to chummy poker games, even if you're meeting people right and left ... this is still a near impossible business to break into. So I don't want to make it seem like my story could happen to anyone.

Especially because my story was set in a totally different time where there were opportunities to make a name for yourself through sheer perseverance. I'm primarily a keyboard player and I arrived in Los Angeles at a time where keyboardists were becoming production kings. Sequencing and sampling were new, and that was _our_ domain.

It was also expensive, which was actually a _good_ thing, because every nickel I made went into more gear (believe me, I can save), so I could buy more than everybody else. I had a $3/day food budget (yes, really), I had no furniture, not even a chair, and I sold my 280Z and bought a former coroner's station wagon for $600. (Looking back, I'm baffled that women would go out with me.)

That frugality bought me (over time) a cassette 4-track, an MSQ-700 sequencer, a Prophet 2000 sampler and an SP-12 drum machine. (Along with the usual synths and my trusty Ibanez.) One guy would later joke about me, _"We knew Mike was our guy when we went to his apartment and there was nothing there but food and gear."_

Nowadays, any bozo with a laptop can get into this game, but back then, my setup was rare, and that opened a lot of doors, including starting a decent songwriting career, since I could demo my own songs for free. That got me my first gold record, which I mention because putting that on the wall gave me still more credibility (_"Wow, Mike must be legit!") _which opened even more doors. In that same vein, this is why that DJ hired me, because he could hear me making tracks through the paper thin walls.

Now ... I realize this is totally self-indulgent, but this has all got me reminiscing. So if you'll indulge me, here's the first track I made when I got my P2000 sampler. (Getting that first sampler was a huge deal to me.) This was around the time of Paul Hardcastle's "19", so I sampled Ginger from Gilligan's Island off my TV speaker, and I played it live against a 2-bar sequenced bassline and beat:

View attachment Ginger Rap.mp3


The point of all this (before I got lost down memory lane) is that the mid 80's isn't 2022. I have a certain arrogance that makes me think that if I were starting over and moved to L.A. all over again, even in today's environment, I'd still make it. Because I'm that good, dammit! But ... would I? The competition today is staggering, and unlike in my day, the price of admission is peanuts, so its harder to stand out.

With that said, good composers can, and do, stand out. Mind you, I don't know that I actually _am_ a great composer, or a great songwriter, or a great keyboard player. But I _think_ I am, so even with the much worse odds today, I would do it all again. The cost/benefit analysis probably says don't come here, and I'd know defeat is likely. (To be clear, it was then, too.) But for me, I would _have_ to do it, and I think that's ultimately the deciding factor.

Hmmm, even by my standards, that is one rambling post. I'll offer as an excuse that I have a really bad cold and I may be overmedicating.


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## Pier (May 9, 2022)

Woah what a story Mike.


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## SupremeFist (May 9, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> • Expensive. Dinner for two at In-N-Out Burger = $20. Dinner for two at a nice place = $100+.


Dude. Have you ever been to London?


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## samphony (May 9, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> A buddy of mine lived in a big loft in downtown LA for many years. Grew to hate it - too grungy. Moved to Woodland Hills (which is in between Calabasas and Topanga, about as far west as you can get and still say you're in LA). Liked it better.
> 
> Even pre-pandemic, he realized that no directors were coming over to his place, and everything was remote via Zoom / Source Connect / etc. So he....
> 
> ...


Totally understandable that he did this move now that the kids are grown and Hawaii is much more relaxing. Great that both of you are still in touch 😉


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## givemenoughrope (May 9, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> Back to the original question in the thread title - what's it like living in LA in 2022?
> 
> • Expensive. Rent / real estate is bonkers. Just beyond all reason. Rent, buy, it doesn't matter. It's insane.
> 
> ...


Might print this out and frame it after the last few years I've had, thanks


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## gsilbers (May 9, 2022)

Yeah, its hard to see similar stories nowadays with just how bad the housing market has become. Rent or buy. Its not aywhere as bad as when i decided to go for it in 2003.  

I stayed at a friends couch and the second week i moved to LA i was working for kc porter who is one of the biggest hollywood producers (pop music), from santana, ricki martin to celine dion and a whole bunch of latin pop rock ive used to listen when as a teen. I didnt even know who he was. IT was so rushed. I just knew he had a pair of orignal neve preamps serial number 08 or something. Thats all i needed to know lol.
So basically the assistant had a family emergency and i was just there... at the living room listening and one of my freinds saying.. hey you want to work there? Sure. 

The guy had so many gold//platinum records i though it was marketing material as it was pilled up against corners and the names where just too famous for me to even grasp it. Even if he had his studio in his mansion in calabasas somewhere. 
Until i saw in one dark corner, under some book a gold record of a really old band from my country and i asked him if he knew that band.... well.. that was a stupid question and realized it as soon it came out and he looked at me wierd. Like a month working with the guy and he realized i didnt know who he was while getting tons of calls from poeple to work with him.

Anyways, worked with him a while and met all these top engineers and mixers who mix and produce the top bands. from beastie boys to no doubt. There... seeing how they did stuff. in front of me. no biggie. It wasn't this ether or smoke of how the big name prodcuers/engineers work.. they just did it. 

I later movedon to post and scoring etc. but always seemed easy to find a job. or a side gig or something or someone looking for help. At least at the start. Getting to be an audio engineer or in house composer for these studios take time and networking. 

There are also a ton of random work and even if you are a composer you might end up doing something else and still be happy. There is many who share the same passion so its more enjoyable and still can find stuff and friends to colaborate. I got to meet some of the remote control crowd like steve jablonsky, heitor pereira and hanz zimmer. So in a way it helped somehow seeing them as mortals, in the flesh. lol. 

So i guess it worked for me. Nowadays i don tknow how it would be. I know there has been a ton of change in the music for film world where when i was deciding to move to LA i didnt even think of it. IT wasnt seen as being cool. 
And even 10 years ago i could go to random soundcloud playlists and music sounded terrible. Now, i randomly check stuff and the quality is much better. And seeing some of these composers like junkie xl and trevor morris announce they need an assistant and its pages and pages of posts here or thousands of comments in facebook. Man that's tough. 

Also, i dont know if its obvous to many. But you need money to be a composer. You cannot just imagine moving to LA and making money instantly. ITs like 2-4 years of using savings or someone paying for it or having a side business that pays while you do something else. 
I think thats the real secret to making it in LA. Most if not all internships dont pay and assitants dont get paid nearly enough to make it half a month in LA. 
Or somehow you had an ongoing gig and now you moved. I think Cellweller did this for example. Although i think he is moving back to detroid. In LA he probably made a lot of connections. With composers and libraries and labels. 
Thats another options. Plan of living in LA for about 3-4 years and move back. Hopefully to a place where its not a million dollars for a shack. Or $800,000 for a burned down house.. in highland park a few blocks from me... really.. like only one wall standing all burned. And it SOLD!! 
And im reading that southwest might run out of water. oh.. and traffic is no joke. Its like 23 cities together and if you find a job, it better be the next one over cuz if not your life wil suck. Most jobs for music or creative stuff is newar santa monica, Mar vista, venice. THats like $2 million for a shack there. :-/
Its really really a huge issue that is not getting the attention it deserves.


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## AndrewS (May 9, 2022)

gsilbers said:


> Or $800,000 for a burned down house.. in highland park a few blocks from me... really.. like only one wall standing all burned.


hey, that means fixing it up is a renovation rather than a rebuild!


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## gsilbers (May 9, 2022)

AndrewS said:


> hey, that means fixing it up is a renovation rather than a rebuild!


lol... yes. I later learned about LA wierd laws that are related to hisotric preservation or something. But as long as a house has one standing wall then its taxes/sold a specific way and not another. I forgot the details but LA or CA has some odd laws. Prop 65 is another one where everything cuases cancer... but only in CA lol. 

Politics are wierd but LA has some challenges as its dozens of cities together. So i moved a block away from Pasadena to LA and suddenly i needed to pay tons of random taxes and LA is notorious for hunting tax dodgers. Specially in the entertainment business. And cops are totally different and different police philosophy... or even if they ever show up. Homelessness is another biggie. 
My goodness.. I doubt anyone would move to LA if it wasnt for the entertainment business haha.


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## SandChannel (May 9, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> • Expensive. Dinner for two at In-N-Out Burger = $20. Dinner for two at a nice place = $100+.





SupremeFist said:


> Dude. Have you ever been to London?


Sure, a 100+ for dinner might not be a lot in London, but at least you don't need to spend 90 grand for a weekend in the hospital.


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## JohnG (May 9, 2022)

Mike Greene said:


> a former coroner's station wagon


Quite an undertaking.


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## Marsen (May 9, 2022)

Mike Greene said:


> _"We knew Mike was our guy when we went to his apartment and there was nothing there but food and gear._


❤
Memories...sweet memories.


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## tmhuud (May 9, 2022)

My house was built in 1920. I wonder if I can have it historically preserved... hmmm...


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## SandChannel (May 9, 2022)

tmhuud said:


> My house was built in 1920. I wonder if I can have it historically preserved... hmmm...


My house was built in 1822. Things are older on the East Coast.


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## tmhuud (May 9, 2022)

SandChannel said:


> My house was built in 1822. Things are older on the East Coast.


I know. We used to party in a house that old in Pennsylvania. Good times.


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## SandChannel (May 9, 2022)

tmhuud said:


> I know. We used to party in a house that old in Pennsylvania. Good times.


Maybe it was my house... I am in PA. LOL!


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## jononotbono (May 10, 2022)

Unfortunately I don't come from a family that has money. No trust fund. And no matter how hard I work and no matter how many non music related day jobs I end up slaving away doing, I still never seem to earn anything substantial so the likelihood of me ever getting to LA is ZERO at this point. Just being honest. The cost of living, the cost of eating, the cost of HEALTH CARE. On top of working 120hr weeks as an unpaid intern or salaried which turns out to be around $6 per hour collecting Sushi, pet dogs or driving halfway across the country to paint someone's tropical shag pad. It's all absolutely insane and the only way to be able to do it, when starting from nothing, is by literally earning a fortune, already having a fortune (or by coming from wealthy parents). Shame. I don't have any kids at 41 and dedicated my life to music (and will forever do so because I love it) but lets be honest. Unless you're rich you have no chance in this modern world. I should probably not come online when I'm thinking like this. Back to rewiring the music lab and eating Beans on Toast. 😂


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## Markrs (May 10, 2022)

jononotbono said:


> Unfortunately I don't come from a family that has money. No trust fund. And no matter how hard I work and no matter how many non music related day jobs I end up slaving away doing, I still never seem to earn anything substantial so the likelihood of me ever getting to LA is ZERO at this point. Just being honest. The cost of living, the cost of eating, the cost of HEALTH CARE. On top of working 120hr weeks as an unpaid intern or salaried which turns out to be around $6 per hour collecting Sushi, pet dogs or driving halfway across the country to paint someone's tropical shag pad. It's all absolutely insane and the only way to be able to do it, when starting from nothing, is by literally earning a fortune, already having a fortune (or by coming from wealthy parents). Shame. I don't have any kids at 41 and dedicated my life to music (and will forever do so because I love it) but lets be honest. Unless you're rich you have no chance in this modern world. I should probably not come online when I'm thinking like this. Back to rewiring the music lab and eating Beans on Toast. 😂


That is often true. Music, Art, Fashion, Acting, lots of creative industries these days seem to require access to funds to get through the very lean starting years in expensive cities.


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## toomanynotes (May 10, 2022)

I could easily live in LA, having lived in the 'crap-house' London is for 15yrs - surely LA would be only 50% worse. I'm sure I'm degenerate enough to live there. Nah, I'll leave it for scoundrels.

You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious"​


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## toomanynotes (May 10, 2022)

jononotbono said:


> Unfortunately I don't come from a family that has money. No trust fund. And no matter how hard I work and no matter how many non music related day jobs I end up slaving away doing, I still never seem to earn anything substantial so the likelihood of me ever getting to LA is ZERO at this point. Just being honest. The cost of living, the cost of eating, the cost of HEALTH CARE. On top of working 120hr weeks as an unpaid intern or salaried which turns out to be around $6 per hour collecting Sushi, pet dogs or driving halfway across the country to paint someone's tropical shag pad. It's all absolutely insane and the only way to be able to do it, when starting from nothing, is by literally earning a fortune, already having a fortune (or by coming from wealthy parents). Shame. I don't have any kids at 41 and dedicated my life to music (and will forever do so because I love it) but lets be honest. Unless you're rich you have no chance in this modern world. I should probably not come online when I'm thinking like this. Back to rewiring the music lab and eating Beans on Toast. 😂


Give me a high five brother! I have no kids either and it's brilliant! (Late 40's)


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## toomanynotes (May 10, 2022)

If anyone is interested, Michael Douglas made a really nice tourism video that highlighted LA called 'Falling Down'


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## toomanynotes (May 10, 2022)

Thomas Costantino said:


> Actually finished up the Val Kilmer documentary.. Very interesting guy. He had this exact sentiment and spent his whole career buying land in New Mexico.. Thousands of Acres ! His dream was to build a new Artist community away from the hectic city. A place where you can connect with nature and harness your craft. Unfortunately his health issues and other plans had forced him to sell the land.
> 
> The idea of this isn’t so far fetched. All it takes is one powerful visionary to connect the dots. The idea of a low cost place for artists to grow and network is much needed. Even if it’s a starting point for us to get to LA. There needs to be a between stage of life that A.) escapes the 9-5 day job/traditional university schooling and B.) allows creatives to grow, network and start earning on their craft. This would also be easier to scout talent.


I met VK, really down to earth, super kind guy!


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## Roger Newton (May 10, 2022)

toomanynotes said:


> I could easily live in LA, having lived in the 'crap-house' London is for 15yrs - surely LA would be only 50% worse. I'm sure I'm degenerate enough to live there. Nah, I'll leave it for scoundrels.
> 
> You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious"​


Calling London a crap house is giving it the benefit of the doubt. when I first went to London to visit relatives in 1956, (most of my family are from London, Surrey and Herts.) and then went back there regularly in the 1960s and then to study in South Kensington in 1970, you would not believe what a different place that was then. More a collection of joined up villages. I finished up on in the trading floors of London merchant banks in the 80s and 90s and it was turning to shite back then.
Now it's a fucking shithole and not surprisingly. I wouldn't go near the place today.

As for Los Angeles. I can't understand why anyone would starve to write a load of what is, let's face it, mostly crappy music in LA. Or anywhere in California for that matter. I wouldn't go near the place.
Get a real job, look for opportunities to make money (hard work means nothing btw when it comes to making money) and do music as a hobby.


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## SupremeFist (May 10, 2022)

I salute people who hate London and never want to come here as it means there will be fewer folk walking too slowly and clogging up my streets.


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## ed buller (May 10, 2022)

I have lived in LA three times. The longest was 5 years. It's not an easy place to live. There is no public transport that is worth using !...I put 90000 miles on my car in 4 years ! All I can tell you with utter certainty is that you will have to do a lot of work for no money...none ! There will be lots and lots of promises.........but no money. If you can make it through that stage...with your sanity and belief still intact....( and that stage can last anywhere from 1 year to 30) and don't mind living in what is a basically an enormous slab of concrete 120 miles wide and 60 miles high, with thousands living under bridges and on embankments and begging for food, with wildfires that can force you out of your home at 3 in the morning, or simple journeys of 40 miles that can take 4 hours, then it's the place for you !

most of the people I got to know in the film music industry didn't have any problems with money. I rarely heard anyone complain about not eating or paying the rent. I came to the conclusion ( supported by evidence eventually ) that they had other sources of income and could out wait the rest of us. In fact that was one of the main reasons so many gigs aren't paid. !

i'm 59. I can't say i'll never end up living there again but it would take a lot. I've been back in London 2 and a half years since my last outing and jumping on the northern line and going to the national gallery then a walk along the embankment still beats the crap out of the 405 !

best

ed


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## ed buller (May 10, 2022)

another viewpoint:



best


e


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## JohnG (May 10, 2022)

toomanynotes said:


> a really nice tourism video that highlighted LA called 'Falling Down'


One of my favourite scores from that era. And a good movie, too.


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## Taron (May 10, 2022)

Huh, nice, a random topic I can add my 2 cents to that isn't really music related?! 

I've lived in LA for over a decade across the turn of the millennium, working in the visual effects industry. When I think about it, I'd want to say it is a kind of purgatory for artists, naive, but ambitioned dreamers and innocent servants of a machine they had not cared to understand before they went there with hopes to realize a path for their ideals.
Naturally, I'm speaking for myself, accepting it as viable interpretation of my observations, but I had managed to snap out of it, recognizing the agenda behind all its productions and understanding that it goes straight against my fundamental ideals. And that was well before that very agenda degenerated into the state of complete absurdity we get to see coming out of it for the last 10+ years, let alone the last few years now.
I'm sorry about it, and very sorry for the people, who go there as true creators with a wish to contribute their own ideals to as many people as possible, hoping to make sense of their artistic impulses. Never should anything ever make them regret those. I went away from there just in time to prevent descending into regrettable contributions, hahahaha...eh... too deeply. But I've seen plenty of people lose any awareness of what and who they're really working for, nurturing an ever inflating level of denial, making more and more sense of the city's acronym with both ears covered going "LA LA LA", the second you carefully point out what the content they create is really for. 

I can't say how it is there now, but I can say that I'm glad I'm far away from it and far enough out of that machinery with what I do. I'm grateful for the experiences and still feel love and respect for the artists, who go there, even those, who get stuck there. But I'd hope for them to eventually rise above their naive intentions and take their awareness to where those intentions really are pointing in order to look back and reevaluate how they should go about it. It made me a much, much happier soul with a healthier body, even if I'm a wee bit broke for a while now, but for other reasons. Also reasons I don't regret.


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## chillbot (May 10, 2022)

ed buller said:


> I put 90000 miles on my car in 4 years !


This is not that many miles, I know people that commute that do a lot more. But it's not for me. I average around 6,000 miles per year over the last 20 years not even counting covid years, it makes LA more tolerable. Find an area/community you like and work at home. The hobbit life for me.


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## Roger Newton (May 10, 2022)

SupremeFist said:


> I salute people who hate London and never want to come here as it means there will be fewer folk walking too slowly and clogging up my streets.


You're probably the ones that clogged them up in the first place. If you were alive in the 60s you would understand that.


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## Roger Newton (May 10, 2022)

ed buller said:


> most of the people I got to know in the film music industry didn't have any problems with money. I rarely heard anyone complain about not eating or paying the rent. I came to the conclusion ( supported by evidence eventually ) that they had other sources of income and could out wait the rest of us. In fact that was one of the main reasons so many gigs aren't paid. !
> 
> ed


A lot of younger people don't and won't understand that. But in fact it's almost going to be a certainty.

I went to the RCM in 1970 and prior to that spent 10 years taking grades, O levels and A levels to get there. The idea today of working in the music industry and making any real money is a total anathema. The difference between then and now is impossible for most people to assimilate. Good luck to anyone though. Wish them well genuinely. But you will need in this day and age a shit load of money behind you just to survive it all. Doesn't matter what craphole you choose to live in either.
When I lived in London full time because of my profession, I was lucky because I could afford to live anywhere I wanted to in the city. Anywhere. But prices today will preclude most people from that. So winding up in a dump to get into film/tv music (which today is mostly puerile bollocks whatever any deluded fantasist may think) is borderline crazy.


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## telecode101 (May 10, 2022)

ed buller said:


> There will be lots and lots of promises.........but no money.


So what, you think you are special or something? This pretty much sums up my entire music career in Toronto for the last 30 years.


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## Thomas Costantino (May 10, 2022)

toomanynotes said:


> I met VK, really down to earth, super kind guy!


That’s awesome ! Certainly one of my hero’s growing up. Hope to meet him one day. The LA chapter is beginning shortly. 

This whole thread is much appreciated. Very cool to get so many perspectives. Good to see the optimism, as well as the realists. Either way, I’m game.


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## SyMTiK (May 10, 2022)

ed buller said:


> most of the people I got to know in the film music industry didn't have any problems with money. I rarely heard anyone complain about not eating or paying the rent. I came to the conclusion ( supported by evidence eventually ) that they had other sources of income and could out wait the rest of us. In fact that was one of the main reasons so many gigs aren't paid. !


Yeah, the trend of unpaid internships/gigs is kind of an unfortunate trend especially in LA, though definitely can be seen all over. I get the exchange of experience and connections that can come along with it, but it is tough because for someone like myself, I don't have a family with millions of dollars to pay every last bill for me while I work full time for little to no compensation. 

I have been out in LA since January, and currently work a manual labor job from 5am to 1pm every day doing landscaping at a golf course so that I can go and hop on sessions later in the day as an assistant and at least affords me the stability in case sessions get cancelled, and whether or not I can get paid for my work assisting. I wish I didn't have to do it, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do to keep the lights on hahaha. Its not the worst day job in the world at least, its a beautiful course, and they let employees play for free so at least I have a hobby to pick up! Also it is refreshing that a bunch of my coworkers are in the same boat in different industries. One of my coworkers is a screenwriter, the other is a semi pro skateboarder, the other just graduated from Full Sail in Game Design and is starting to look at getting a job in the game industry like myself!


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## Thomas Costantino (May 10, 2022)

SyMTiK said:


> Yeah, the trend of unpaid internships/gigs is kind of an unfortunate trend especially in LA, though definitely can be seen all over. I get the exchange of experience and connections that can come along with it, but it is tough because for someone like myself, I don't have a family with millions of dollars to pay every last bill for me while I work full time for little to no compensation.
> 
> I have been out in LA since January, and currently work a manual labor job from 5am to 1pm every day doing landscaping at a golf course so that I can go and hop on sessions later in the day as an assistant and at least affords me the stability in case sessions get cancelled, and whether or not I can get paid for my work assisting. I wish I didn't have to do it, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do to keep the lights on hahaha. Its not the worst day job in the world at least, its a beautiful course, and they let employees play for free so at least I have a hobby to pick up! Also it is refreshing that a bunch of my coworkers are in the same boat in different industries. One of my coworkers is a screenwriter, the other is a semi pro skateboarder, the other just graduated from Full Sail in Game Design and is starting to look at getting a job in the game industry like myself!


In the beginning, being a true Artist means working after work. Looking back, it was actually a blessing when I was going from manual labor outside to creating at night. It’s a true shift point that created a lot of flow in my work. Now I have to strive to be active and step away from the studio rig. There’s a true beauty in what your doing. It’s what separates you from the pack. Keep at it! Never know when those peers of yours will actually rise up and you’ll be their guy down the road.


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## timbit2006 (May 10, 2022)

I live in the Canadian knockoff Hollywood and it's too expensive and hot. I couldn't imagine surviving life in the real LA. This probably doesn't help you very much.


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## jmauz (May 10, 2022)

Not to hijack the thread but honestly I can't imagine starting out in the music biz these days. I'm a 30+ year veteran and I'd be done if it wasn't for mailbox money and the fact that I'm a quadruple threat (writing/producing/performing/teaching).

It seems to me that music has become a free commodity in American culture. The result seems to be less and less $$ available to pay musicians/producers/engineers/composers. Sure, to get started you had to work for free - that has always been part of the 'pay your dues' stage of one's career, but over the past 5 years I've been asked more than ever to work for free. Even worse is people have admitted to me they were afraid to ask because they just assume I'm too expensive (I'm not).


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## joebaggan (May 10, 2022)

Roger Newton said:


> As for Los Angeles. I can't understand why anyone would starve to write a load of what is, let's face it, mostly crappy music in LA. Or anywhere in California for that matter. I wouldn't go near the place.


Yes, if your goal is to write crap music for Barbie commercials, reality shows, or hollywood drivel for a target market of mostly pre-pubescents, then LA is the place to be. I guess that's what "Working in the Industry" means on this board. But if you're a musician/composer/artist making innovative or challenging music that isn't going to fit Barbie commercials, you can be in lots of places to do that and LA isn't the center of it, that's for sure.


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## Markrs (May 10, 2022)

SyMTiK said:


> Also it is refreshing that a bunch of my coworkers are in the same boat in different industries. One of my coworkers is a screenwriter, the other is a semi pro skateboarder, the other just graduated from Full Sail in Game Design and is starting to look at getting a job in the game industry like myself!


Just like the connections many make at Uni can pay off, these connections you have made when you were all struggling to break through could pay off as well. Most creative careers are about who you know, as it is all about trust and whether people like you.

I think if you want something it is worth fighting for, but the harder part might be letting go if it doesn’t happen. In life the regrets we tend to have is not trying something than regretting we tried something.


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## Loïc D (May 11, 2022)

joebaggan said:


> write crap music for Barbie commercials


You just ruined my expectations…
Maybe I should reconsider.
Do any know someone at Little Pony to help me build a career ?


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## telecode101 (May 11, 2022)

SyMTiK said:


> Yeah, the trend of unpaid internships/gigs is kind of an unfortunate trend especially in LA, though definitely can be seen all over. I get the exchange of experience and connections that can come along with it, but it is tough because for someone like myself, I don't have a family with millions of dollars to pay every last bill for me while I work full time for little to no compensation.
> 
> I have been out in LA since January, and currently work a manual labor job from 5am to 1pm every day doing landscaping at a golf course so that I can go and hop on sessions later in the day as an assistant and at least affords me the stability in case sessions get cancelled, and whether or not I can get paid for my work assisting. I wish I didn't have to do it, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do to keep the lights on hahaha. Its not the worst day job in the world at least, its a beautiful course, and they let employees play for free so at least I have a hobby to pick up! Also it is refreshing that a bunch of my coworkers are in the same boat in different industries. One of my coworkers is a screenwriter, the other is a semi pro skateboarder, the other just graduated from Full Sail in Game Design and is starting to look at getting a job in the game industry like myself!


The unpaid internship gig thing has been around for ages. Its the way the industry works. If you wanna get in and start out.. you need to do the unpaid thing. Take it or leave it. Its the way it works. Even back in the 90s when there were still studios -- they didnt pay me a nickle. They took free labour from college programs and thats how they worked. After a few years of that, you make some connections and get paying gigs. I worked as a ticket taker at a stadium as my paying gig when i was interning.


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## toomanynotes (May 11, 2022)

SupremeFist said:


> I salute people who hate London and never want to come here as it means there will be fewer folk walking too slowly and clogging up my streets.


You can have the streets! Good luck with your 'postcode gangs' - don't tell them they are 'your' streets.
Generally the people who clogg em up can't afford to live there....and they will keep coming and coming and coming. Enjoy.
People with no 'Criminal records' - who have careers and jobs can afford to live 'outside' London; Woking, Winchester, Basingstoke etc. Shithole mate. Only good for a night out and a piss up against the wall. Lurvly Jurbly as they say.


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## vancomposer (May 16, 2022)

toomanynotes said:


> Give me a high five brother! I have no kids either and it's brilliant! (Late 40's)


Here you go!

Also no kiddos, mid 40s.

I am moving to LA on Thursday, I don't care for any warnings, except that I have been around the block in this industry for 20+ years now so certainly not being naive and acting stupid (I think!), quite the opposite VERY focused! I do listen very carefully to other peoples opinions and experiences though and some great advice here, THANKS! But at the end I want to find out myself and hell YES, I might FAIL, throw the towel, had enough set backs in my career, NO NEW! I am preparing for this move for may years, trying to get a resume, saving up some money, heck come to the US first of all and what a voyage that was alone.

Anyways, planing on camping at the beach as often as I can. If someone wants to hang out and say hello for a coffee or a cold drink, I do have a frig as well.

Cheers everyone, love discussions like this, just hype me up more!


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## Taron (May 16, 2022)

vancomposer said:


> Here you go!
> 
> Also no kiddos, mid 40s.
> 
> ...


The thing that had convinced me to go to LA was this harmless suggestion:
"Come to LA, stay there for 3 years! If you like it, stay longer, if you don't, leave again. It's that simple!"

As for "camping at the beach", haha, make sure you're not falling for some tv-show's idea of camping at the beach. Last I remembered, you weren't supposed to be on the beach after 10pm. It's over 13 years ago, but well... something tells me, it hasn't gotten any lighter?! 

Anyway, you'll find enough to enjoy for quite some time to overlook the things you'd want to cringe at. By the time you can't suppress the cringing anymore... just don't overstay!


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## vancomposer (May 16, 2022)

Taron said:


> As for "camping at the beach", haha, make sure you're not falling for some tv-show's idea of camping at the beach. Last I remembered, you weren't supposed to be on the beach after 10pm. It's over 13 years ago, but well... something tells me, it hasn't gotten any lighter?!


Ah sorry for the confusion, what I meant is paying for parking like at the Santa Monica lot, I am not sure yet if they will charge me 7$ or 25$ for my van since technically its an RV. I will find out soon. I have a home base camp spot on private property. Other then that 4+ years full time vanlifer here, so I know all the rules and for sure not to believe the social media glory. 😉


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## Thomas Costantino (May 16, 2022)

vancomposer said:


> Here you go!
> 
> Also no kiddos, mid 40s.
> 
> ...


The master plan! Glad to hear you have a home HQ for the van...

Your content is very cool. I was on the edge of my seat when Nacho heroically traversed the water. Wasn’t expecting that leap lol... And kudos to your friend; not many cooks like to flip salmon. I did just that last night. Opposite though: I like to cook the top first flat on the pan so the skin is face up and gets firm, then flip at the end just to crips the skin up. It keeps it intact and you don’t have to worry about sliding the spatula under every two minutes to unstick it ( sorry, off topic but I love food as much as music 😀 ).

As a fellow nomad soul who’s spent significant time in an RV studio setup, I throughly enjoy your videos and perspective from your travels. I know many unhappy people, especially some talented musicians, that should flip the script and embark on a nomad adventure. Love to see how you guys built it all around a studio setup. It will be a humbling story when your behind a stellar composer rig scoring films. Seems your whole life is centered around making this work. It’s an immensely pivotal conversation here - reading about the glory and pitfalls to modern life in LA as a composer. I have faith you’ll pave your own way !

Appreciate everyone who shared from first hand experience.


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## vancomposer (May 16, 2022)

toomanynotes said:


> I could easily live in LA, having lived in the 'crap-house' London is for 15yrs - surely LA would be only 50% worse. I'm sure I'm degenerate enough to live there. Nah, I'll leave it for scoundrels.
> 
> You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious"​


LOVE the Mos Esiley spaceport (Dante's view/ Death Valley NP) reference! 😁


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## vancomposer (May 16, 2022)

Thomas Costantino said:


> The master plan! Glad to hear you have a home HQ for the van...
> 
> Your content is very cool. I was on the edge of my seat when Nacho heroically traversed the water. Wasn’t expecting that leap lol... And kudos to your friend; not many cooks like to flip salmon. I did just that last night. Opposite though: I like to cook the top first flat on the pan so the skin is face up and gets firm, then flip at the end just to crips the skin up. It keeps it intact and you don’t have to worry about sliding the spatula under every two minutes to unstick it ( sorry, off topic but I love food as much as music 😀 ).
> 
> ...


Oh wow brother thanks for watching and so much attention to details! ☺️

Would love to see your rig if you have any pictures.

I am as a hopeless dreamer as most of us ...I just found the way of fewest resistance for me and vanlife is the Swiss army knife yo solve various problems. I will never forget when I moved here and applied for anything like a lease "Sir whats you credit score like? Answer half stuttering: I am sorry my what? Any work history sir? YEAH like I did a bunch of full length documentaries for this very well known German TV channel ZDF bla blup. I am sorry Sir whats the name of the show again? Ah well never mind!" 😄

Heck man moving to LA in 3 days, WOOOT WOOOT!!! 🥳


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## SyMTiK (May 16, 2022)

Taron said:


> The thing that had convinced me to go to LA was this harmless suggestion:
> "Come to LA, stay there for 3 years! If you like it, stay longer, if you don't, leave again. It's that simple!"


This! This is the same advice I got when I was on the fence about moving cross country, from a good friend and former classmate who came from a similar background as I did - grew up in a small town on the east coast, faced with the big decision of moving away from friends and family to take the risk and expand a career. This past year he got some pretty awesome credits, one of them being on Dune! 

LA is a great place to get experience as there is a lot of opportunities to be had. Not to say it isn't doable to form a strong career wherever you are located (it absolutely is), it is just a good option to build relationships and get a variety of experience. Even if you don't intend to stay or find that LA isn't for you, it is still valuable to give it a shot. Worse that can happen is you find you hate it here, and now you know! And then on to the next adventure! Always better to try things out and find they don't work out, than to be left wondering what could have been, in my opinion


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## toomanynotes (May 16, 2022)

vancomposer said:


> Here you go!
> 
> Also no kiddos, mid 40s.
> 
> ...


I have to say, I admire your enthusiasm and the biggest plus is you have no kids..
So I jump up and high five!! 😎🥳 

Sleep with one eye open though (use eye drops) and buy a shiny piece, tape it under your bench, just kidding, tape it to your back.
If you starve, plenty of unused fast food sachets of tomato ketchup and mayo. Mayo has plenty of protein, it's simple but enough. 

Man I'm jealous now.. keep us updated and good luck! If you make it, remember who you owe! I got credit with you..


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## toomanynotes (May 16, 2022)

vancomposer said:


> LOVE the Mos Esiley spaceport (Dante's view/ Death Valley NP) reference! 😁


this is so cool!


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## HCMarkus (May 16, 2022)

I live outside of San Diego, moved south from LA years ago. Was in Hollywood this weekend, performing at the Hard Rock Cafe. Traffic was OMG Awful. But the folks milling about sure are... um... interesting.

Best of luck and good wishes if you move there!


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## vancomposer (May 16, 2022)

toomanynotes said:


> this is so cool!


Nah, but this is! 😄







toomanynotes said:


> Man I'm jealous now.. keep us updated and good luck! If you make it, remember who you owe! I got credit with you..


Will for sure do! ☺️


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## telecode101 (May 17, 2022)

good read for those thinking of moving.









‘We Have Fire Everywhere’ by Jon Mooallem · Longform


For eight hours last fall, Paradise, Calif., became a zone at the limits of the American imagination — and a preview of the American future.




longform.org





I am staying nice and put on the Canadian shield. No earthquakes. No fires. I go smoking dope in the Algonquin forests. The worst thing that can happen is I drown in a lake.


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## NuNativs (May 17, 2022)

You couldn't PAY ME to live there...
@vancomposer has the right idea.
Location is IRRELEVANT.
Work out your nomadic income sources.
Surround yourself with NATURE as your office.


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## jonathanwright (May 19, 2022)

What’s with all the London hate?

I moved here 20 years ago and it’s lovely. Not perfect, nowhere is, but I love it.


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## JJP (May 19, 2022)

telecode101 said:


> good read for those thinking of moving.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I couldn't read the article, but the header references the fire in Paradise, which is over 400 miles (over 650km) from Los Angeles. California is a huge state.


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## charlieclouser (May 20, 2022)

SyMTiK said:


> Even if you don't intend to stay or find that LA isn't for you, it is still valuable to give it a shot. Worse that can happen is you find you hate it here, and now you know! And then on to the next adventure! Always better to try things out and find they don't work out, than to be left wondering what could have been, in my opinion


Exactly this. When I got out of college in 1985 with a degree in Electronic Music (oops), I knew that NYC was the only answer. I moved immediately with a few friends but without any meaningful contacts. I bike messengered, bussed tables, and folded used clothes at the Antique Boutique. But dang if it wasn't amazing. And of course things led to other things and it all worked out. 

I'm glad I don't live there now, but I'm glad I lived there then.


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## telecode101 (May 20, 2022)

JJP said:


> I couldn't read the article, but the header references the fire in Paradise, which is over 400 miles (over 650km) from Los Angeles. California is a huge state.


Maybe so, but if the gist of the article is, climate change is moving much faster than municipalities are able to adjust their emergency plans and policies to keep up with it -- I don't think 600km really matters all that much.


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## LudovicVDP (May 20, 2022)

Hi all,

I love reading your experience and your stories. I love that those are not "I have a friend who..." stories but real experiences.

Even when leaving (the lack of) money outside of the equation: at almost 40, far from the US, with 2 kids and a demanding day job, and the very little (and bad) music this all lets me the time to compose... L.A. will always remain a fantasy for me, never a reality.

I've accepted that idea, but I keep telling myself from time to time that "Damn, it would still be nice though..." 

That's ok... All fantasies are not meant to be realized. One day I'll come as a tourist. That's definitely on my list of places to visit. Maybe I'll come across someone with a Cubase t-shirt and I'll start a conversation for 2 min. That would be my L.A. story... 🙃

In the meantime, I love living all this vicariously, through all your testimonies. Please keep them coming.

Cheers.
Ludovic

Edit: Junkie XL, Hans, Charlie, everyone... If you're reading this, forget everything I just said... I can be there on Monday if you need me...


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## Varishnipu (May 20, 2022)

LA is too conservative….you loose edge and style with the LA peoples….stay in any place else to maintain the drive to compete.


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## Markrs (May 20, 2022)

LudovicVDP said:


> Edit: Junkie XL, Hans, Charlie, everyone... If you're reading this, forget everything I just said... I can be there on Monday if you need me...


😂


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## vancomposer (May 20, 2022)

*On my way!*

My mind is spinning the entire drive... 😶‍🌫️ SO MUCH opportunity, SO MANY things I hope/ DREAM to achieve there! But also so much COMPETITION and SO MUCH (to much) CITY! 🥵

Got to work on the mental health balance right away and therefore heading to the beach fore the entire weekend. 😄


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## Markrs (May 20, 2022)

vancomposer said:


> *On my way!*
> 
> My mind is spinning the entire drive... 😶‍🌫️ SO MUCH opportunity, SO MANY things I hope/ DREAM to achieve there! But also so much COMPETITION and SO MUCH (to much) CITY! 🥵
> 
> Got to work on the mental health balance right away and therefore heading to the beach fore the entire weekend. 😄


Will have my fingers crossed for you. I might be a hobbyist but love see people go for it 🤞👊


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## ryst (May 20, 2022)

vancomposer said:


> *On my way!*
> 
> My mind is spinning the entire drive... 😶‍🌫️ SO MUCH opportunity, SO MANY things I hope/ DREAM to achieve there! But also so much COMPETITION and SO MUCH (to much) CITY! 🥵
> 
> Got to work on the mental health balance right away and therefore heading to the beach fore the entire weekend. 😄


If you need beach suggestions, let me know.


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## vancomposer (May 20, 2022)

ryst said:


> If you need beach suggestions, let me know.


Please, can't know enough good places. 🙋🏻‍♂️


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## carlc (May 20, 2022)

vancomposer said:


> Please, can't know enough good places. 🙋🏻‍♂️


It's not really a beach for sunbathing, but my kids and I enjoy seeing all the little ocean creatures in the tide pools at Leo Carrillo state park: http://californiatidepools.com/leo-carrillo-tidepools/


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## SyMTiK (May 20, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> Exactly this. When I got out of college in 1985 with a degree in Electronic Music (oops), I knew that NYC was the only answer. I moved immediately with a few friends but without any meaningful contacts. I bike messengered, bussed tables, and folded used clothes at the Antique Boutique. But dang if it wasn't amazing. And of course things led to other things and it all worked out.
> 
> I'm glad I don't live there now, but I'm glad I lived there then.


It's always refreshing hearing from other composers I look up to that they too started out doing all sorts of different jobs in the beginning to make the dream work! 

I mow grass in the mornings at a golf course every day at 5am, but I hop into any session I can later in the day (funny enough, today I was assisting someone who also happened to be in NIN before!) and man, every time I get the opportunity to be in the room with great musicians and artists creating something, it's the best feeling in the f***in world honestly! And it always reminds me why it is worth doing what we do, there is nothing quite like it!

Sometimes I miss my hometown in Rhode Island, but even in the 5 months I have lived in LA I have had some truly awesome experiences that I can't say would be possible elsewhere. There is just always something going on here it seems and I love that feeling.


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## ryst (May 24, 2022)

vancomposer said:


> Please, can't know enough good places. 🙋🏻‍♂️


A few of my favorite spots:

*Sycamore Cove Beach/Point Mugu* - Great hiking at Point Mugu with a camping entrance right across the street from Sycamore Cove Beach. If you go hiking you get a nice view above the sand dune:






Lots of RV's parked there and there are a few RV campsites in that area as well. 

*Manhattan Beach & Hermosa Beach*: When I want to get in the water, I usually go here. Water is a bit warmer than Malibu beaches.

*Sunset Beach* - Probably my favorite spot because it's a small town just north of the main Huntington Beach area. It's basically in between Seal Beach and Huntington Beach. Water is great, and no matter how great the weather is, the beach is never crowded. And there is a great seafood restaurant called Captain Jacks in that area. Also, Huntington Harbor is a nice spot to rent a boat and chill on the water for an hour or 2. 

If you wanna go further south, Dana Point is nice and so is San Clemente.


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## mat1 (May 24, 2022)

toomanynotes said:


> ; Woking, Winchester, Basingstoke etc.


Eww. I’ll take London any day*.*


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## vancomposer (May 24, 2022)

ryst said:


> A few of my favorite spots:
> 
> *Sycamore Cove Beach/Point Mugu* - Great hiking at Point Mugu with a camping entrance right across the street from Sycamore Cove Beach. If you go hiking you get a nice view above the sand dune:
> 
> ...


THANKS a bunch for the recommendations, will certainly check them all out with time!

Actually already had a pretty rough start here! 😁😎


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## Chris Schmidt (May 24, 2022)

jononotbono said:


> There have been many posts on LA and what its like to live there but I'm curious what its like at this moment in time during this Covid time?


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## Thomas Costantino (May 25, 2022)

SyMTiK said:


> It's always refreshing hearing from other composers I look up to that they too started out doing all sorts of different jobs in the beginning to make the dream work!
> 
> I mow grass in the mornings at a golf course every day at 5am, but I hop into any session I can later in the day (funny enough, today I was assisting someone who also happened to be in NIN before!) and man, every time I get the opportunity to be in the room with great musicians and artists creating something, it's the best feeling in the f***in world honestly! And it always reminds me why it is worth doing what we do, there is nothing quite like it!
> 
> Sometimes I miss my hometown in Rhode Island, but even in the 5 months I have lived in LA I have had some truly awesome experiences that I can't say would be possible elsewhere. There is just always something going on here it seems and I love that feeling.


What do you miss more about RI: belly busters at 3am, dells, coffee milk, cold pizza rounds, or people using the word f#%kin 3 times per sentence ? 😆


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## davidanthony (May 25, 2022)

vancomposer said:


> Please, can't know enough good places. 🙋🏻‍♂️


If you ever want a secluded beach spot, Escondido Beach in Malibu is practically empty around midday on weekdays and there's ample free parking by the side of the highway next to the coastal access gate.


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## AndrewS (May 25, 2022)

Let’s put it this way, when I started at Remote in 2010, a chicken burrito from Tacos Por Favor was $6.84. The same burrito now costs over $13.


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## vancomposer (May 26, 2022)

AndrewS said:


> Let’s put it this way, when I started at Remote in 2010, a chicken burrito from Tacos Por Favor was $6.84. The same burrito now costs over $13.


Certainly noticeable when just going to the same grocery stores like Walmart here how prices are much higher for certain items. 😳


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## SyMTiK (May 26, 2022)

Thomas Costantino said:


> What do you miss more about RI: belly busters at 3am, dells, coffee milk, cold pizza rounds, or people using the word f#%kin 3 times per sentence ? 😆


definitely coffee milk and Federal Hill Italian food! LA is certainly lacking in the Italian cuisine department. Certainly some good spots, but I miss how there were endless options back home


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## Thomas Costantino (May 26, 2022)

SyMTiK said:


> definitely coffee milk and Federal Hill Italian food! LA is certainly lacking in the Italian cuisine department. Certainly some good spots, but I miss how there were endless options back home


Ahh same here. You don’t appreciate Federal Hill so much till you move ! Im a serious foodie.. Had many discussions and debates about food in LA and NYC. Even the most die hard New Yorker will admit Any hole in the wall on the Hill beats out gourmet restaurants in the big city. But there’s also so many hidden gems all over Rhode Island. Crazy how such a small state can be known to absolutely reign supreme with food... Even the Chinese joints are top notch ( I know you’ve been to Asia Grill in Lincoln lol )

Not sure where your from, but I’ll assume your familiar with Johnston ( please save the Pauly D comments ). Next time your home try Cafe Vino. Small joint with maybe 10 tables. Very unassuming next to a 711.... Literally the best food I’ve ever had PERIOD. Casarinos doesn’t even come close. Great guy that runs the place. He was mentored by the previous owner who was straight off the boat. Of course his name is Vinny. Tell him Costantino, Balzano’s cousin, sent you...
He might kick you out 😂

That was the hang out spot for a long time. Truly miss closing that place down and talking nonsense till the sun came up.

Looking forward to finding a regular place in LA. I’ve veered away from Italian a bit. Last time I was out there, this place called Komodo was my jam. Asian/Mexican Fusion. By God I hope they’re still in business !


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## SyMTiK (May 26, 2022)

Thomas Costantino said:


> Not sure where your from, but I’ll assume your familiar with Johnston ( please save the Pauly D comments ). Next time your home try Cafe Vino. Small joint with maybe 10 tables. Very unassuming next to a 711.... Literally the best food I’ve ever had PERIOD. Casarinos doesn’t even come close. Great guy that runs the place. He was mentored by the previous owner who was straight off the boat. Of course his name is Vinny. Tell him Costantino, Balzano’s cousin, sent you...
> He might kick you out 😂


Funny enough, my first boss in high school was Pauly D's ex manager/best friend hahaha, everyone knows everyone in RI 

I have actually heard of Cafe Vino! Never been, but my best friend is from Johnston and has been and has said very good things about it. I am from southern RI! Richmond

You are so right though about the food in RI. Even going to school in Boston, I felt like there were few restaurants that compared to some of the places in RI. Huge variety. My two favorite spots in all of RI though are actually breakfast places - T's, and Harriet's in Cranston. Harriet's has hands down the best home fries I have ever had. Everything is farm fresh, huge portions and cheap as can be. You will never leave hungry. To this day they have a menu item that consists of three eggs, bacon, sausage, chocolate chip pancakes, french toast, and home fries. and its 13.50. Meanwhile I can hardly get a slice of avocado toast for 13.50 in LA hahaha


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## Thomas Costantino (May 26, 2022)

SyMTiK said:


> Funny enough, my first boss in high school was Pauly D's ex manager/best friend hahaha, everyone knows everyone in RI
> I have actually heard of Cafe Vino! Never been, but my best friend is from Johnston and has been and has said very good things about it. I am from southern RI! Richmond


I’ll reach out in the DM... this thread could easily be highjacked by Rhode Island food and who knows who. @alcorey knows what I’m talkin about 😂

To bring it on topic though, it’s wild how close you are to connections in RI, whereas in LA they say your network is 5 or 6 people away from your ideal contact. In Rhode Island your 1 or 2. And those people are likely connected to major players in LA or NYC ( may have mentioned that in a post a while back). I noticed a few people are in this thread from other countries, debating on pulling the trigger on LA. Getting your feet wet in a way less expensive city might be a good option. Providence, RI is a great place to start. Warwick is even cheaper and a stones throw away. Then you have beautiful South County for beaches and nature galore. And once you make friends, there’s a 70 percent chance you’ll know someone who knows someone who's related to Seth McFarlene 😆 ... seriously.

But in your case,

I can’t exactly extend out and name names, but although your in LA now, don’t underestimate your network in Rhode Island. There’s many people in RI that can seriously put you on out there in Cali. Just a bonus coming from such a small unique place. Tap into it.

You’d be surprised at the amount of big names that actually frequent RI or have vacation homes there. I think stars like to enjoy such a small city with so much history, good food, and the concept of driving to every location with zero traffic and ample parking.

Edit: Pauly D’s first job was bussing tables for my sister at a restaurant. She got him fired... She also told Keanu Reeves to get lost after he asked her for cigarettes. Then she added “ your Keanu Fuckin Reeves, go get them yourself”. He replied “ No one has ever talked to me like that”. They ended up bar hopping together all night in Providence.

I think Stars actually like being treated like normal. In RI that’s exactly what they get ( although I can’t say my sisters have ‘normal communication’). Famous people keep frequenting that city on the low, very interesting. Christopher Walken always said it’s his ‘hidden secret across the county’. He lives in a nice house on Block Island: the only Island that’s part of Rhode Island... You just never see a mob around these people. Just a few of their own crew.

I remember meeting Lamar Odem not far from your home town in Richmond. It was easy to just meet him and share a drink. They like the small town vibe. I believe Taylor swift also spends a significant amount of time on a beach she bought in Richmond, which I didn’t know was even possible considering the state is so small and most beaches are public. I’m sure the state was more than happy to slice her off a piece of public property for the right price.

2nd Edit: My friend ... T’s is the only place I will consume breakfast in RI. Although Harriets sounds great. I will try it next time I’m in town.


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## vancomposer (May 30, 2022)

Hey so I DID IT, I have moved to LA to pursue my dream to become a rich and famous LA YouTuber and Gram influencer! I keep you guys posted about whats cooking in town from now on about fashion, food, hip places and all that good stuff! 😄


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## toomanynotes (May 31, 2022)

jonathanwright said:


> What’s with all the London hate?
> 
> I moved here 20 years ago and it’s lovely. Not perfect, nowhere is, but I love it.


Woah! Calm down mate. Just having some fun.


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## toomanynotes (May 31, 2022)

mat1 said:


> Eww. I’ll take London any day*.*


Thanks for the data. My analysis of you is complete.


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## vancomposer (Jun 5, 2022)

Sorry if creating ROLL eyes 😄 ... BUT I am so freaking HAPPY to be here now! All is set up, attending first events next week and man there is SO MUCH going on already (hopefully post-pandemic), you can technically go to something every day! The motivating ENERGY level in this town is of the chart for someone like me. Sure probably the honeymoon phase I am going through ... BUT f-word it, GREAT to be alive, healthy, got all I need and now lets jump right into it!


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## Michael Antrum (Jun 27, 2022)

I lived in London in the 80’s. Went down there originally to do my degree and had the best time of my life. I had an enormous circle of friends and a social life that was verging on the bounds of so much fun it should be illegal.

Lots of fabulous war stories. Even got hitched to an East End girl. We moved to Yorkshire to raise a family.

Every time I have visited London since, my heart breaks a little more. As of now, every single person I knew there has left. Even my wife’s family - who were there for generations have all moved out, and would never dream of going back. The city has changed and not for the better.

It’s easy to be overcome by the excitement and energy of the place, but i think covid has opened some eyes. Paying a grand a month for a small room where being outside means breathing awful level of toxic fumes, paying though the nose for everything and little chance of being able to buy your own home…..

The London I knew and loved is gone forever…

As for the music industry….Music for me is a hobby, and I would never want to change that.

However, as far as I can see, some of the practices described in this thread, if applied to almost any other industry, would be described as exploitation of the highest order.


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## mikeh-375 (Jun 28, 2022)

Michael Antrum said:


> I lived in London in the 80’s. Went down there originally to do my degree and had the best time of my life. I had an enormous circle of friends and a social life that was verging on the bounds of so much fun it should be illegal.
> 
> Lots of fabulous war stories. Even got hitched to an East End girl. We moved to Yorkshire to raise a family.
> 
> ...


I did my degree in the Smoke in the early 80's too. To think Mike we may have been pissed up in the same boozer at some point....
I worked in LA a few times and my overarching memory of it was the size of it (and the great players).


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## vancomposer (Jun 28, 2022)

3DC said:


> Subscribed to your YT. Cool camera work, music and scenery. As if I was there.
> 
> Few tips if I may. When you have time try to:
> 
> ...


Thanks for following along and the tips! 🙋‍♂️ I agree with you, website should get an overhaul! I very much like LA so far, NOT the city because I have been to so much nicer places, but the energy and opportunities!


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## vancomposer (Aug 20, 2022)

Hallo all! 🙋‍♂️

So my observation after being here for 3 months now... that is... if you want to even have a realistic MICRO chance to ever establish yourself in LA LA land... then you HAVE TO be in LA LA land! 🤷‍♂️ 

NOT to make a living as a musician and-or composer, I have been doing both for 15 years back IN and then 5 years remotely TO Germany-Europe here from the USA and the royalties still keep me floating for the most part. But the reality is LA-Hollywood doesn't give a F-WORD for your outside credits, at least in TV and Film. Yeah ok, I met those TV sync guys couple of days ago at a super cool event and they knew some European channels and I could joke with I had some placements in the US via European production music libraries and I had to learn that NBC- Dateline is NOT a dating show. The BBC is pretty much the only European channel that seems to have an accepted status here if you made some direct composition for that and I don't mean library stuff. I had that myself and it doesn't count. But the moment I mention some in my case German prime TV networks, some quite large, that I have worked for directly like documentaries or bands I have played with that even won awards over there, the conversation quickly ends since you can't talk about something that people don't know and honestly also don't care.

The talent pool here and the size of it is... INSANE!!! Like seriously, freaking UNBELIEVABLE! 🤯

Imposter syndrome, self doubts and all that not so good stuff on your metal health, this city will test YOU! Now what helps me personally, I am a chunk older then lots of the younger folks I have met so far, so I have learned painful but valuable lessons for myself in my life on how to read alarm signs about my mental health or if I listen to much to the  on one shoulder vs the  on the other and then what to do in order to get back on track (usually).

I am also not a shy person and go out as much as I can find events and socialize. And YES!! events in LA are BACK!!! And I have been to some absolutely AMAZING ones and met some super cool people and also some household name composers. Not expecting them to help me out but just meeting and talking to some of those folks is freaking inspiring and motivating.

One thing is also clear, there will be no short term fairy tale success here for me, this will be the total expected super long marathon with even a very high chance of a big NOTHING at the end!

I will also take a break from LA for 2 months in October and move back to Las Vegas because... YAAAAYY my mom is coming to visit from Europe! 🥰 And I simply don't have the resources here to host her comfortably for this time. But if anything requires a short stay to attend an important event we drive down here immediately. AND I got hired to score my 6th Las Vegas independent feature film during that time up there.

BUT guess what, LA LA land doesn't give a S**T! 😄


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## Jetzer (Aug 20, 2022)

@vancomposer I have been following you for a while on Instagram, and love that you are now going for it in LA. 

It sounds like you have a good idea what you are doing and that you realise it’s going to be tough to break in. 

Good to hear you are mindful of your mental health. I think I would get quickly overwhelmed by a city as LA and the talent pool there. Yikes! 

Good luck on your journey! It is inspiring to follow. 

I am not trying to make it in the music industry, but it’s still helpful to look at people like you who are going at it. Makes you think about your own dreams/goals and steps you can take.


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## b_elliott (Aug 21, 2022)

vancomposer said:


> One thing is also clear, there will be no short term fairy tale success here for me, this will be the total expected super long marathon with even a very high chance of a big NOTHING at the end!


I admire your get-up-and-go. 

My 2 cents: In my youth I went with high dreams to a university -- 40 plus years later I vaguely remember the professors' name and not much detail of the many courses I took (especially those math courses!) I did however meet two fellow musicians who have remained close friends for life.

Later on I worked @20 years in LA (not in music). My biggest take-away after returning to Canada early 2000: aside from many pleasant memories of LA & SoCal was the friends I made; especially one dear friend who opened their ritzy LA home to accommodate me whenever I came to spend my vacation time.

The long story short: it'll be worth every penny while you are in LA, to at least come away with one or more friends for life. IMHO that's SOMETHING! 
Cheers, Bill


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## vancomposer (Aug 21, 2022)

Jetzer said:


> @vancomposer I have been following you for a while on Instagram, and love that you are now going for it in LA.


Hey Jetzer, thanks a lot for following along and great it does you something good for you! 🙏 Glad to share and maybe give others some ideas for their own path. I am was certainly looking for every snippet from anyone in the business for a long time before moving. Just reading from people being here was already very inspiring to me and kept my mind thinking and heck yeah, dreaming in all directions!



b_elliott said:


> I admire your get-up-and-go.
> 
> The long story short: it'll be worth every penny while you are in LA, to at least come away with one or more friends for life. IMHO that's SOMETHING!
> Cheers, Bill


Hi Bill, you are absolutely right and I am glad you kept something long lasting from this experience! Reading this gave me a good feeling for the day, thanks! 🥰


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## Alchemedia (Aug 21, 2022)

I lived in LA for 25 years before escaping to the Bay Area. It's not what it used to be.


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## HCMarkus (Aug 23, 2022)

Alchemedia said:


> I lived in LA for 25 years before escaping to the Bay Area. It's not what it used to be.


Neither is the Bay Area. 

Matter of fact, I don't know anywhere that is like it used to be. And, for some locations, that is a very good thing.


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## Alchemedia (Aug 23, 2022)

HCMarkus said:


> Neither is the Bay Area.
> 
> Matter of fact, I don't know anywhere that is like it used to be. And, for some locations, that is a very good thing.



In the case of LA, it's hardly a good thing from my experience/perspective. YMMV


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## vancomposer (Aug 23, 2022)

Alchemedia said:


> In the case of LA, it's hardly a good thing from my experience/perspective. YMMV


Mind sharing some insight on what made you leave? 25 years is an incredible long time. 

Also this topic sort of started with the question as of how necessary it is to be in LA to establish yourself in the industry HERE and I already don't see an alternative way. Now if you are already established enough the overall life quality might determine your decisions more to move vs someone like me that just has to suck it up.


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## b_elliott (Aug 23, 2022)

re: what made you leave -- For me it was the insane cost of US health care. 
I noticed on one vacation of mine back to LA, what cost me $20 in Cda was $200 USD at a pharmacy (same medication). 
Not sure if Obama resolved that issue since then....


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## ryst (Aug 23, 2022)

LA has declined quite a bit since the pandemic in a lot of ways. Tons of businesses closed. Rent increased a lot in a lot of areas. So did real estate. Homelessness got a lot worse, and some other things I won't dare talk about here due to some taking it as "political". I never wanted to get out of LA until the pandemic. Luckily, most of my work is remote anyways. And I won't be moving far, just down to Huntington/Newport Beach within the next year. My wife and I always wanted to eventually move down there anyway, but the way LA declined kind of accelerated our plans. I wouldn't tell anyone not to move here though. Still plenty of great reasons to do so and if you don't have experience here, you won't know what's gotten better or worse. You gotta live through it yourself and make your own personal choices. So whoever moves here, I always say, good luck and I hope you make the most of it. We did, and now it's time to move on.


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## Mike Fox (Aug 24, 2022)

I lived in LA several years ago for a short period. It was cool while it lasted, but I’d probably lose my mind living there long term.

Fun place to vacation though!


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## Mike Fox (Aug 24, 2022)

ryst said:


> LA has declined quite a bit since the pandemic in a lot of ways. Tons of businesses closed. Rent increased a lot in a lot of areas. So did real estate. Homelessness got a lot worse, and some other things I won't dare talk about here due to some taking it as "political". I never wanted to get out of LA until the pandemic. Luckily, most of my work is remote anyways. And I won't be moving far, just down to Huntington/Newport Beach within the next year. My wife and I always wanted to eventually move down there anyway, but the way LA declined kind of accelerated our plans. I wouldn't tell anyone not to move here though. Still plenty of great reasons to do so and if you don't have experience here, you won't know what's gotten better or worse. You gotta live through it yourself and make your own personal choices. So whoever moves here, I always say, good luck and I hope you make the most of it. We did, and now it's time to move on.


Would love to move to Newport. Such a fun and beautiful town. I’m actually renting a beach house there next month for a few days. Can’t wait to surf again.

Best of luck with your move!


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