# Are you guys really buying all these libraries?



## lastmessiah (Jul 21, 2018)

I don’t mean this to be confrontational at all, I’m really just confused as to why you would need so many different orchestral libraries. I see threads that are like “I have X, Y, and Z, should I get YY or ZZ next?” and I’m left scratching my head. As a Composer Cloud X subscriber I find that there are so many variations in timbre and dynamics I can achieve through programming, expression, effects, etc that I can’t imagine I will need much else in the way of orchestral samples for the foreseeable future.

Is it just a fun addiction for most of you or am I missing something by not collecting all the new releases?


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## Dear Villain (Jul 21, 2018)

lastmessiah said:


> I don’t mean this to be confrontational at all, I’m really just confused as to why you would need so many different orchestral libraries. I see threads that are like “I have X, Y, and Z, should I get YY or ZZ next?” and I’m left scratching my head. As a Composer Cloud X subscriber I find that there are so many variations in timbre and dynamics I can achieve through programming, expression, effects, etc that I can’t imagine I will need much else in the way of orchestral samples for the foreseeable future.
> 
> Is it just a fun addiction for most of you or am I missing something by not collecting all the new releases?



I work exclusively with the VSL (and only standard libraries, no dimension or appasionata either), and I have the J.B. violin and Pianoteq Steinway. That's it. Sometimes when I read how much money people have put in to their library collection, I assume it's actually because the appeal for them is more about collecting/shopping for instruments than actually composing. For those hobbyists with lots of disposable income, it's easy to buy, less so to learn to use the tools well. I'm still learning how to use my one collection of instruments and constantly struggle to get the most out of what I have. Never do I consider throwing down thousands for new, until I reach the point where I feel I can't do what I want with what I have. Since I work primarily in classical music, and am not concerned with "larger than life/epic" sounds, or keeping up with the latest and greatest trending sounds, it saves me tons of money and lets me spend my time writing, not researching. I always laugh when people say 10 year old violin samples sound old...um, a newly sampled violin is still sampling a 200 year old instrument in some cases, so it's a new sample of an old instrument.

Anyway, the take away message is to find what works for you, and hopefully, don't buy because someone else recommends it; buy because you feel it will improve your work.

All the best,
Dave
p.s. it's probably still cheaper buying libraries than the grand piano collecting dust in so many homes.


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## R. Soul (Jul 21, 2018)

Why do people have 15 guitars? 

It's called GAS.
Good article about it here. 
https://www.musicradar.com/news/guitars/7-stages-of-gear-acquisition-syndrome-585947


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jul 21, 2018)

lastmessiah said:


> I don’t mean this to be confrontational at all, I’m really just confused as to why you would need so many different orchestral libraries. I see threads that are like “I have X, Y, and Z, should I get YY or ZZ next?” and I’m left scratching my head. As a Composer Cloud X subscriber I find that there are so many variations in timbre and dynamics I can achieve through programming, expression, effects, etc that I can’t imagine I will need much else in the way of orchestral samples for the foreseeable future.
> 
> Is it just a fun addiction for most of you or am I missing something by not collecting all the new releases?



New purchases can make a lot of sense - after many years, it can be inspiring to update your palette and swap things out. It's just samples after all, and one can really get tired of listening to the same sounds for years. And as we all know, there is no one-stop-shop library that covers all bases equally well and it's very very helpful to have different tools in the box and different colors to work with. But it can become an ugly trap and it's pretty obvious to me that many people end up walking into it without noticing.

I'm 100% sure that impulsive/compulsive buying plays a very big part in the whole sample library business. It's not all that different from what many "regular" people do with pointless electronics, clothes or expensive niché hobbies (scale modelling, hunting, car stuff, etc. etc.). Surely it gets amplified due to the fact that the customer base is artistic and creative. You're always looking for that tiny little bit that helps you get one step closer to what you're truly envisioning in your head. 

Ultimately, it's like any other industry that deals with luxury goods - selling dreams.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jul 21, 2018)

No, I am mostly transcribing 24/7 music and composing.


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## kitekrazy (Jul 21, 2018)

lastmessiah said:


> I don’t mean this to be confrontational at all, I’m really just confused as to why you would need so many different orchestral libraries. I see threads that are like “I have X, Y, and Z, should I get YY or ZZ next?” and I’m left scratching my head. As a Composer Cloud X subscriber I find that there are so many variations in timbre and dynamics I can achieve through programming, expression, effects, etc that I can’t imagine I will need much else in the way of orchestral samples for the foreseeable future.
> 
> *Is it just a fun addiction for most of you or am I missing something by not collecting all the new releases?*



It stops being fun when you look at your credit card debt. I think the mindset is different when you are getting paid for your work.


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## Polkasound (Jul 21, 2018)

lastmessiah said:


> I’m really just confused as to why you would need so many different orchestral libraries.



I have a friend who owns 17 accordions -- all are the same brand and similar model. To the average person, they all look and sound the same, but to him, he is aware of the slightest differences among them all. One is tuned to 442, one is tuned to 442 1/2, one has keyboard action that's 1 mm deeper that another, one has an extra fold in the bellows, etc. He is so passionate about his craft, that his passion warrants owning those 17 accordions.

Most orchestral libraries probably sound the same to the average person, but to a composer, each one is unique in its own ways. One library uses different decca mics, one was recorded on a warmer sound stage, one uses a slighter larger cello section, one blends better with another library, etc. While G.A.S. does affect many people, I believe there are plenty of composers whose passion warrants the purchase of every new library they buy.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Jul 21, 2018)

lastmessiah said:


> “I have X, Y, and Z, should I get YY or ZZ next?”



Definitely check out ZZ, it's a real workhorse. Also, N.


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## robgb (Jul 21, 2018)

It becomes a bit obsessive, but I find that each library brings something new to the table in terms of tone, rawness (or the opposite), playability, etc. More libraries means more opportunity to layer and create unique sounds.


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## ceemusic (Jul 21, 2018)

Realistically studio musicians might need several guitars & some might be collectors.

On forums I see it more of an egotistical, narcissistic thing.
There are those who constantly brag that they bought the latest library, plugin or they'll list all their gear in their signature.
Usually it's a big clue.


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## dcoscina (Jul 21, 2018)

lastmessiah said:


> I don’t mean this to be confrontational at all, I’m really just confused as to why you would need so many different orchestral libraries. I see threads that are like “I have X, Y, and Z, should I get YY or ZZ next?” and I’m left scratching my head. As a Composer Cloud X subscriber I find that there are so many variations in timbre and dynamics I can achieve through programming, expression, effects, etc that I can’t imagine I will need much else in the way of orchestral samples for the foreseeable future.
> 
> Is it just a fun addiction for most of you or am I missing something by not collecting all the new releases?


It’s a good question. Over the past year, my income has been inconsistent to say the least so I got into the habit of using what I have which is admittedly a lot. I really wanted to get OT String Runs for a RPG score I was working on but because the money was yet to come, I ended up using EW Hollywood String Gold stacc slur and CineString Runs because I own those. Worked just fine.


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## bryla (Jul 21, 2018)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Definitely check out ZZ, it's a real workhorse. Also, N.


ZZ is top!


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## wst3 (Jul 21, 2018)

I think, like darned near everything else, it depends.

I have a very modest collection of sample libraries, and yes, if I were earning more with them I'd get more of them. But I try to make sure income is greater than expenses<G>!

Some of the purchases were made out of curiosity, I have Albion One, OE 1&2, Swing and Swing More, and Metropolis Ark 1. It has been a bit of a struggle learning to use these libraries, and common sense would suggest that I should have given up after the first one<G>. I'm glad I didn't! It isn't that one of them suddenly made sense to me (oh that it were that easy), but rather my continued experiments with all of them finally paid off. And you know what? They really are remarkably different, in spite the common thread.

Same goes for straight multi-sampled libraries, for example I use VSL SE, Chris Hein and Cinesamples for orchestral brass and winds - they are very different sounds, and very different workflows. To me they compliment each other, and I am able to do far more with the combination than I could with only one of them. Same approach for strings, I use 8Dio Adagio/Aggitato, Cinematic Studio Strings, and VSL SE. 

Sometimes it is as simple as trying to accomplish something with one, getting no where, trying a different library and it works - probably not entirely because of the library, I think sometimes it is just the change.

I would guess that folks with more extensive collections find the same things to be true, just on a bigger scale. I'm sure there are collectors out there too. The more the merrier, just as with guitars the collectors make some of these things more affordable for the rest of us.

And for the record, I do own several guitars, and I think they are all different, no, I know they are. Some are work horses that get used on most of my projects. Some are specialty items that get used a couple times a year (maybe even less in the case of my Mosrite Ventures - but when I need that sound the Mosrite is the only guitar that gets it.)

Now I did learn a valuable lesson about buying on credit. Many of the earlier guitars were purchased on terms, and it caught up with me. Fortunately I survived, and learned my lesson. Nothing really wrong with that either - some of us just have to learn things the hard way<G>!


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## Niah2 (Jul 21, 2018)

You have to find a balance.

Some people really get caught up with all the marketing and think they need to buy everything. Some people have a lot of libraries because they are involved in very distinct and different projects that require drastically different musical styles and need a large palette of sonic colors. 

Every library is different, they have been recorded differently and have different performance capabilities. But one of the shortcomings of working samples is that, well, they are samples. No matter how many variations each library has, after a while they will start to sound the same (although that's fine for some composers). Occasionally there are those libraries that stick in composers templates for years to come, but essentially I agree with Charlie Clouser when he says that sample libraries are consumables. 

It really comes down to what your music needs. 

Also sometimes limiting yourself to lesser tools can yield more creative results and getting the most out of what you have. Sometimes newer tools can give a new direction to your music and get you out of old routine habits.


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## D Halgren (Jul 21, 2018)

Yes


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## Alex Niedt (Jul 21, 2018)

To a certain point, more libraries can push your creative boundaries and possibilities, simply like a painter having a wider palette. You just have to stop before you can no longer find the brush you need because it's buried in layers of subfolders.


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## CT (Jul 21, 2018)

What really bugs me is seeing people throw away significant money on VI's bought impulsively which they then promptly get disenchanted with and wipe from their hard drives, almost with pride, rather than trying to squeeze even the tiniest bit of use out of them. 

Meanwhile I'd give a limb or two to have just a small portion of the arsenals often touted around here, if it meant better tools, less endless tinkering with subpar ones, and overall, more music.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jul 21, 2018)

miket said:


> What really bugs me is seeing people throw away significant money on VI's bought impulsively which they then promptly get disenchanted with and wipe from their hard drives, almost with pride, rather than trying to squeeze even the tiniest bit of use out of them.
> 
> Meanwhile I'd give a limb or two to have just a small portion of the arsenals often touted around here, if it meant better tools, less endless tinkering with subpar ones, and overall, more music.


+1 ..thats a big thing I see here too. I mean each to their own. But imo the majority of people here tend to be consumers but not using their Vi´s to most effect which takes time and there is the point: They buy, try it out but can´t achieve the results they probably expect and hope in order to buy something new that this will give them the sound. Truth for me is: Thats not gonna happen, dude.


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## midi-et-quart (Jul 21, 2018)

Well I try to spend only for VI's which are going to translate my ideas in a convincing way without much editing.

May sound lazy but I don't think that composing should mainly be a battle with CC curves and other things like that.
Take Symphobia or the Metropolis Ark series as well as Organic Samples' solo vocals, they just sound great out-of-the-box and directly put you in the mood. I think that if you get hundreds of controllers to control before getting a decent sound, ... you probably lose a lot of time and that often isn't worth the instrument, even if it's free.


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## lastmessiah (Jul 21, 2018)

midi-et-quart said:


> Well I try to spend only for VI's which are going to translate my ideas in a convincing way without much editing.
> 
> May sound lazy but I don't think that composing should mainly be a battle with CC curve and other things like that.
> Take Symphobia or the Metropolis Ark series as well as Organic Samples' solo vocals, they just sound great out-of-the-box and directly put you in the mood. I think that if you get hundreds of controllers to control before getting a decent sound, ... you probably lose a lot of time and that often isn't worth the instrument, even if it's free.



This is one point that I strongly disagree with. Learning MIDI and CC is essential to developing your own sound, and injecting your own psychology into your compositions. I’m sure Symphobia sounds great but if you’re just arranging the samples as they are then you’re in danger of ending up with a canned and generic sound.


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## robgb (Jul 21, 2018)

I have eight guitars. Not sure that's a crime.


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## robgb (Jul 21, 2018)

lastmessiah said:


> Learning MIDI and CC is essential to developing your own sound, and injecting your own psychology into your compositions.


Yeah, I have the same issue with people who don't bother to learn how to mix because the library sounds great out of the box.


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## The Darris (Jul 21, 2018)

For me, it comes down to context. No single library can do it all. A personal example would be that recent piece I posted in the Members' Composition Thread. I got to record a real Alto Saxophone soloist but when I was doing the mock up, I started with ProjectSam's Saxophones from the Swing Series and after a long frustrating battle with getting it to do what I wanted, I ended up buying and using VSL's Alto Saxophone library and it was perfect. I was able to conform what I had done with the Swing Sax to VSL's in 20 minutes and then re-programmed the performance entirely and got the sound I needed extremely quickly. Getting the best representation of what was in my head was key as I know my player would want to also hear what my intentions are as well. This saved us a lot of time in the studio. 

The point I'm trying to make here is about context. Every library has a specific context that it excels at and when you work with your libraries long enough, you start to figure out what the best context it is to use them in. If you don't have other libraries, this issue will start to creep into your writing and before you know it, you are writing more for your samples than anything else. Swing and Swing More are great libraries but they are awful at trying to render a quasi-classical/subtle jazz sound compared to VSL's Saxophone. Berlin Woodwinds Revive is great for Ensemble, complex Woodwind writing for symphonic/film scoring work but I think they fail at a good soloing sound, despite having single player patches. Spitfire Woodwinds excels at that. The biggest mistake younger composers do is just go all out and buy into a lot of products and sort of "collect" these libraries. I used to do that (years ago) but once you start working with a single library long enough, you learn where it fails and if you take the time to do proper research and ask the right questions, you can be lead to the product(s) that fill the gaps for what you have. The next step is then learning how to use a new library and getting the most out of it as well. 

I can truly say that I've finally found the right balance of libraries that I need to write 90% of my orchestral music with. It's usually 2-3 different libraries per section that I layer/weave together to get the performance I need for personal projects and the work I do professionally. 

To each their own though. If you prefer being a minimalist and creating everything you can from the least amount of sources as possible, that's awesome. I'm betting at some point you will exhaust what you can create with that library and will want something new and refreshing to use. It's very true that some libraries can be incredibly inspiring to work with and can help kick start the creative process. I'm okay with that when it happens. 

Best,

Chris


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## Casiquire (Jul 21, 2018)

Despite being a fairly active forum member and user I've always shared this viewpoint. I only have two string libraries, two brass, ONE wood, and one percussion. I only buy something when I truly need something.

As a half-answer to your question, I have a few solo strings. That category has seen significant improvements and each new solo strong library I got was sort of revolutionary. It was less about chasing the newest craze and more about not being satisfied with the current technology, and I was pretty choosy even here. With Chris Hein I think the tech finally just about caught up with my standards.


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## JohnG (Jul 21, 2018)

There are a couple of reasons I buy quite a lot of sample libraries:

*1. Small differences can mean a lot *-- as @Jimmy Hellfire wrote, doing this all day for months on end I get completely worn out hearing the same sounds. Moreover, if you're actually envisioning something very specific, it's a relief to get your hands on a short viola that's "just that much shorter" or a cello that's mic'd differently, or those "feathered" spiccatos from Spitfire strings. 

The degree to which small differences matter or even are discernible depends somewhat on the material, but even then you still want the right sounds. If you have BLAM BLAM drums and there's a helicopter /machine gun / car chase, getting super fussy about some bits quickly hits the slope of diminishing returns, but on the other hand you don't want short strings recorded "politely" for that kind of thing. You want chaos.

By contrast, if a child has just died in the story, you would naturally want something else.

*2. It doesn't matter if you can't hear it *-- I realise this opens another can of worms about whether expense is worth it or not. I used to listen through the cheapest and most inferior audio chain -- cheap amp, cheap speakers, very cheap cables, and never gave a thought to A/D conversion. Total cost: maybe $500? 

After years of hectoring, my engineer eventually convinced me to upgrade. I had been making more from music for a while by then, which played a part. I spent $10k or something like that and replaced everything all at once. 

When you go from less than $1k to $10k to upgrade your entire signal path, you can really hear the difference. It clarified the stereo field, allowed me to hear much smaller EQ, reverb, and other FX changes. It also meant I could hear much more subtle differences in sounds, whether sampled or not.


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## Wally Garten (Jul 21, 2018)

I don't know. Most of my work involves some combination of hardware synths/effects, softsynths, and Kontakt libraries. Compared to hardware, most Kontakt libraries are dirt cheap. Like many people, I feel a constant need to do something different from what I've done before, and a new $0-$50 library is often a very economical way to do that -- WAY more economical than a new synth. Some of the libraries I've wound up using over and over again were free or nearly free (especially the Peel Guitar and the Ollie Waton Drums from the old Spitfire Labs program -- those find their way into a _bunch_ of stuff). But even if I buy something that I only use on one song (say... https://www.kontakthub.com/product/bandoneon/ (this bandoneon library)), if it fired me up in a way that helped me make something I like, I think it was worth it. Sometimes that trick doesn't work, and the library ends up gathering dust. But it works often enough that I have no regrets.

As I've gotten better and more precise in my music-making, I do now find that sometimes I want a specific, expensive library that gives me a higher-end sound that I haven't been able to squeeze out of whatever I already have. Those purchases are a bit harder to treat casually, and if I don't end up using the library very much I consider that wasteful. So I try to make sure that the first thing I do with a new library is write a track with it. (When I first got Spitfire's Ricotti Mallets, which was my most expensive library purchase at that point, I was so mortified by the purchase -- a hundred and seventy dollars?? -- that I promptly sat down and built an entire album around it!)


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## Tice (Jul 21, 2018)

For orchestral libraries, I only use the VSL special editions. Beyond that I only buy what I need for a project. Currently other than the VSL special editions I have 3 guitars from Ample Sound, the Gypsy and Stormdrum 3 libraries from EW, and I only ever indulged once in buying a library not because I needed it but because I wanted it: The Bernard Herrmann library by Spitfire. Unless a new requirement pops up for an instrument I don't have, no more libraries for me. I could get more than one orchestral set, but for the same money I could get instruments I don't already have and increase my range as a composer far more than buying another orchestral library would. Since money isn't raining from the sky, I want to choose my library additions wisely. I realise that you can create many different orchestral 'feels' with different libraries, but I strongly feel that adding diversity elsewhere is just more bang for my buck.

oh, I forgot my Hans Zimmer piano, how could I?! Couldn't do without having a great piano libary...


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## Zoot_Rollo (Jul 21, 2018)

D Halgren said:


> Yes



never liked them.


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## D Halgren (Jul 21, 2018)

@Zoot_Rollo


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## D Halgren (Jul 21, 2018)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> never liked them.


Chris Squire had the best bass sound in rock, and Bill Bruford was one of the greatest drummers of all time! Just saying.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Jul 21, 2018)

VSL and CH (solo strings and winds) are my workhorses.

After the Epic Frenzy of Winter 2017/8 and a couple of regrettable Ark purchases, i am beyond cautious with what i buy.

I have Hyperion & Adagietto, but at sub-$50, i don't consider those a major financial hit.

Intimate creeps over a C-Note.

Pianoteq6 is my only piano.

content, except for SE 3, peprhaps.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Jul 21, 2018)

D Halgren said:


> Chris Squire had the best bass sound in rock, and Bill Bruford was one of the greatest drummers of all time! Just saying.



I prefer Bruford post-Yes.

Saw him with King Crimson - 1973

and with Genesis, 1976 Trick of the Tail tour.

Bruford's work with David Torn and Kazumi Watanabe is stellar.

as a bass player, i can't stand that Yes Rick sound.

also, just saying.


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## D Halgren (Jul 21, 2018)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> I prefer Bruford post-Yes.
> 
> Saw him with King Crimson - 1973
> 
> ...


To each his own... but Close to the Edge is a masterpiece! I love Crimson too! Wetton also had an amazing sound back then!


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## Zoot_Rollo (Jul 21, 2018)

D Halgren said:


> To each his own... but Close to the Edge is a masterpiece! I love Crimson too! Wetton also had an amazing sound back then!



to each her own indeed; hearing one beat of YES makes me pull out my eyebrow hairs one by one.

Wetton was so great, that voice too - Roxy, Family, etc...


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Jul 21, 2018)

midi-et-quart said:


> Well I try to spend only for VI's which are going to translate my ideas in a convincing way without much editing.
> 
> May sound lazy but I don't think that composing should mainly be a battle with CC curve and other things like that.
> Take Symphobia or the Metropolis Ark series as well as Organic Samples' solo vocals, they just sound great out-of-the-box and directly put you in the mood. I think that if you get hundreds of controllers to control before getting a decent sound, ... you probably lose a lot of time and that often isn't worth the instrument, even if it's free.



@midi-et-quart : Please allow me to disagree here 

Actually, you can compose something absolutely fantastic without touching a single CC line. You just need some paper or any notation software !

But if you want to use sample libraries, imho you just have to "make them speak", and they will speak with MIDI information.

Composition is an art, but making beautiful MIDI mockups definitely is a craft


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## Alex Niedt (Jul 21, 2018)

robgb said:


> Yeah, I have the same issue with people who don't bother to learn how to mix because the library sounds great out of the box.


Even as someone who has mixed for a living, I find this attitude silly. If someone's workflow and tools allow them to get a great sound, that is literally all that matters. Creative people should work in a manner that gets their ideas out with the least left-brained distraction possible (which includes wanting to bypass hours spent tinkering with MIDI programming minutiae). They can send their tracks off to specialized mixers later on.


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## robgb (Jul 21, 2018)

Alex Niedt said:


> Even as someone who has mixed for a living, I find this attitude silly. If someone's workflow and tools allow them to get a great sound, that is literally all that matters. Creative people should work in a manner that gets their ideas out with the least left-brained distraction possible (which includes wanting to bypass hours spent tinkering with MIDI programming minutiae). They can send their tracks off to specialized mixers later on.


I don't think it's silly to learn the tools of your trade, especially these days when budgets and other considerations force many composers to become one man shops. And I, frankly, find mixing to be just as much a part of the creative process as anything else. Yes, it's nice to have a great sound out of the box, but such libraries also have limitations in what you can do. Hell, layering libraries alone is a form of mixing, and the "silly" thing would be to never consider layering. Obviously, different needs for different people, but we're long past the days when any composer—any musical artist, for that matter—can just sit down with a guitar or a keyboard or a pen and staff paper and let others worry about recording and mixing. The more you can control your music, the better off you are.


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## bryla (Jul 21, 2018)

robgb said:


> but we're long past the days when any composer—any musical artist, for that matter—can just sit down with a guitar or a keyboard or a pen and staff paper and let others worry about recording and mixing. The more you can control your music, the better off you are.


No, We are not at all past those days! In big productions the composer composes. Her assistants assist, orchestrators orchestrate, recording engineers record and mixing engineers mix. Tasks can be very divided.

We are - however - in the days were all of this CAN be a one man operation.


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## Alex Niedt (Jul 21, 2018)

robgb said:


> I don't think it's silly to learn the tools of your trade, especially these days when budgets and other considerations force many composers to become one man shops. And I, frankly, find mixing to be just as much a part of the creative process as anything else. Yes, it's nice to have a great sound out of the box, but such libraries also have limitations in what you can do. Hell, layering libraries alone is a form of mixing, and the "silly" thing would be to never consider layering. Obviously, different needs for different people, but we're long past the days when any composer—any musical artist, for that matter—can just sit down with a guitar or a keyboard or a pen and staff paper and let others worry about recording and mixing.


I didn't say anything about not learning your tools, but some of the attitudes in this thread seem to put others beneath them for not working a certain way, which is ridiculous. Though lines blur, layering is a production technique, not a mixing technique, unless sample layering or replacement is discussed before the mix process. I guess my point is people on forums like this seem to forget that while they whine about other people's workflows, those other people may very well be making music beyond what they'll ever achieve.


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## ashtongleckman (Jul 21, 2018)

Every single library has it's pros and cons, and it's own individual identity. Each were recorded in a different place, different engineers, different players, different instruments. Do you need 30 libraries to make great music? No. I've heard absolutely brilliant music from people using just a few libraries. But as I said, each is so different, and each captures a different feel. One thing we forget is a string library for example isn't just a string library, it's actual PEOPLE behind each note, and you get something a bit unique depending on what you use.

We're always looking for new sources of inspiration in our writing process, and most importantly we're always looking for things we didn't have before. And as new and fresh things are being captured that we don't already have in our toolbox, like the evolutions stuff, and the uniqueness of something like Joshua Bell Violin for example, for me its about getting new and inspiring tools that you think can help bring your ideas to life.


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## paularthur (Jul 21, 2018)

Ease of use. I was using CC until i got Albion + CSS/CSP, it was like switching from dial-up to wireless... New tech helps.


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## robgb (Jul 21, 2018)

Alex Niedt said:


> I didn't say anything about not learning your tools, but some of the attitudes in this thread seem to put others beneath them for not working a certain way, which is ridiculous.


You're reading something into it that doesn't exist, at least not for me. I can be opinionated, yes, and pretty blunt with my opinions, but I also want to empower people. The more you know, the more you can do, the better off you are. It has nothing to do with being "beneath" or "above" anyone else.


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## robgb (Jul 21, 2018)

bryla said:


> No, We are not at all past those days! In big productions the composer composes. Her assistants assist, orchestrators orchestrate, recording engineers record and mixing engineers mix. Tasks can be very divided.


And how many people on this forum, do you think, are involved in big productions? And what do you bet that those who are also know how to do all those other things? Or what about those who work on smaller projects or are selling their work straight to licensing websites? Today's composer needs to know as much as possible.


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## quantum7 (Jul 21, 2018)

Polkasound said:


> I have a friend who owns 17 accordions



Weird Al Yankovic would be proud!


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## Greg (Jul 21, 2018)

Some of us crazy ones are obsessed with hunting down the final 5-10% of perfection in our work. Unfortunately that last leg takes 100x more effort, money, skill, and gear. Are libraries part of that 5% extra oomph? Can't really tell till you buy it and use it. Sometimes it's a complete waste of money, totally agree


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## Tice (Jul 21, 2018)

Side note: I find that by not buying additional libraries, I force myself to get more familiar with the libraries I have, to get things out of them I didn't previously know could be gotten out of them. Buying new libraries isn't unlike buying a new instrument, and you can't master them all. There's just not enough time in your life to do so.


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## charlieclouser (Jul 21, 2018)

I buy tons of libraries. Most of the big guns - and I don't really write orchestral music. I do hybrid-ish in-the-box scores with orchestral sounds sprinkled throughout, but not traditional arrangements and I never record with a real orchestra.

So why do I need seventy different spiccato patches? Because most of them are shit. When I'm working I flip through them all, searching for the one that sounds the way *I want* things to sound. To get the results I hear in my head, to create a sound that works with the other sounds I want to use in the score, I have to try out many alternatives, often layering two or three or ten to get things to sound the way I want. 

If I were writing music that was going to be played by a real orchestra, maybe I could use just one do-it-all library since the sounds would be replaced by the real thing in the end. 

But picture trying to write a piece for a television series that needs to sound slick, sleek, and futuristic (high tech detective series), but needs to have an emotional moment that also has a hint of the supernatural (a character's sad conversation with her dementia-ridden father triggers her supernatural ability to see dead people or whatever). For a scene like that, you can't just use the factory presets "Piano #1" and "String Section" - it would sound too normal, too ordinary, too.... bleh. For that situation I need to search far and wide for a piano sound that's dripping with character, processed to hell and back, layered with time-stretched glockenspiel and backed up with something like Evo Grid strings and granular woodwinds pads. The producers want me to "take this cue to the next level" and "make it sonically interesting" - but it's only 40 seconds long and really shouldn't have more than three or four elements or it will sound too thick.

So just for that one cue I need to dig deeply and find four sounds that originate in the familiar but each have an interesting twist. And that's just one of thirty cues I need to do - that week. Multiply that concept by thirty cues times 22 episodes and it really makes sense to have every single type of weapon in the drawer. Guns, knives, rocket launchers, freaking blow-darts - I need 'em all, and I need 'em loaded and mounted in quick-draw holsters hanging from my belt, or else I'll stumble and fumble when the bear is running right at me.

If I had unlimited time and unlimited budgets, I could spend a day writing the piece, two days recording piano, glockenspiel, and a string quartet, and then spend another day processing and time stretching and filtering and mixing - or spend two days trying to process basic stock sounds to get an interesting result - but all that for a 40-second cue that's just one out of thirty that need to be delivered in seven working days? I love films and scores that can get the job done without all the high-tech mayhem - like Desplat's "Syriania" - but not every project is like that. In fact, very few of them are. 

Out of any library purchase I probably tag about ten percent of the sounds as "possibles" and actually use ten percent of those. Some libraries (like Evo Grids) are way more useful to me and I wind up keeping just about all of it in the "possibles" folder, but for more traditional libraries I scroll through the patches saying, "no... no... no... no.... oooh, that's nice." An example would be the venerable EastWest Quantum Leap Symphonic Orchestra. It's a full selection of the whole darn orchestra - and I use basically five sets of samples from it: violins sul ponticello tremolos, violins fx wide vibrato, celli spiccato round-robin x6, trombone section bends down half-step, and french horn section wide vibrato. I keep those five in my template and use them all the time. But the other six zillion samples in that library? Meh. Not useful to me for the type of music I'm writing lately. I keep them around just in case, but...

So bring on the Evo Grid volumes 5 through 50. I'll be buying.


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## PaulBrimstone (Jul 21, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> I buy tons of libraries. Most of the big guns - and I don't really write orchestral music. I do hybrid-ish in-the-box scores with orchestral sounds sprinkled throughout, but not traditional arrangements and I never record with a real orchestra.
> 
> So why do I need seventy different spiccato patches? Because most of them are shit. When I'm working I flip through them all, searching for the one that sounds the way *I want* things to sound. To get the results I hear in my head, to create a sound that works with the other sounds I want to use in the score, I have to try out many alternatives, often layering two or three or ten to get things to sound the way I want.
> 
> ...


Nicely said, @charlieclouser, spot on.


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## Matt Riley (Jul 21, 2018)

I haven't purchased a VI in a long time. I have spent a lot of money on them in the past though.  I have just about everything I need now.


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## lastmessiah (Jul 21, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> I buy tons of libraries. Most of the big guns - and I don't really write orchestral music. I do hybrid-ish in-the-box scores with orchestral sounds sprinkled throughout, but not traditional arrangements and I never record with a real orchestra.
> 
> So why do I need seventy different spiccato patches? Because most of them are shit. When I'm working I flip through them all, searching for the one that sounds the way *I want* things to sound. To get the results I hear in my head, to create a sound that works with the other sounds I want to use in the score, I have to try out many alternatives, often layering two or three or ten to get things to sound the way I want...



See, this I understand. I myself tend to write electronic/digital compositions and very rarely attempt to simulate a real acoustic orchestra. Most of the time I am adding strings and woodwinds to synth and sampled noise and balancing the mix for a targeted artificial sound. Even then, I feel like Hollywood Orchestra gets me 80% of the way there, especially when I'm using something like Bitwig Studio as a sequencer, which comes chock full of sound design modules and devices. 

If I were doing paid professional work on a deadline (which I am not, sadly) I would be remiss to sacrifice the sound design and development aspect of composition. Simply scrolling through a library of sounds to find the 'right' one just doesn't have the personal touch that a carefully crafted patch does. That's just me, though.

By the way, I'm honored by your response. I am a fan of your work and especially dug the Wayward Pines soundtrack.


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## charlieclouser (Jul 21, 2018)

lastmessiah said:


> Simply scrolling through a library of sounds to find the 'right' one just doesn't have the personal touch that a carefully crafted patch does. That's just me, though.



Well, I'm not sacrificing the sound design aspect at all. Scrolling through presets is just to find a starting point for further processing. It's not like I'm going to start with "Init Patch" and a sine wave every single freaking time! 

Can you pick out any factory presets used on Wayward Pines? Even if I tell you where some of the starting points came from? Here's a few libraries that I used as starting points on that series:

- Sonic Couture Glassworks
- Sample Logic Waterharp
- CineSamples Deep Percussion Beds volume 1
- EastWest Quantum Leap Symphonic Orchestra
- Malmsjo Piano

And here's what I used and how I processed it:

- Glassworks - Baschet Cristal percussion hits - I extracted some of the marimba-like percussive hits, picked my favorites, ran them through a weird convolution reverb patch I made in Space Designer by dragging a random orchestral string effects sample in as an impulse response, and made a new key map with the bounced samples pitched down in EXS24. This is used as a non-sinister, marimba-like melodic percussion instrument throughout the series.

- Waterharp - I found a couple of sustained samples that had a more or less steady pitch, extracted them, manually edited the individual wave files to create smooth sustained loops with none of that familiar "water phone wobble", and made a new key map in EXS24 with just five or six of those samples, using mod wheel to crossfade between ones with less / more vibrato / wobble. This is used as a main melodic and pad instrument throughout the series.

- Deep Percussion Beds - I used a lot of the "low drums" and "percussive metals" stems from the slower loop construction kits in this library as the basis for many of the action cues. I extracted all the wave files, discarded the provided Kontakt instruments, and imported the wave files into Ableton Live for tempo and pitch manipulation, massive editing to re-arrange the rhythmic parts so they played what I wanted, and further layering with single hits and loops from my own recordings. The tone and space on the taiko-type loops in this library added a nice fat bottom and tasty reverb tail when layered with the more dry and hard sound of my own recordings.

- EastWest - The five patches I mentioned before were used a lot. There were a few cues that needed "ordinary" spiccato strings, so the RRx6 celli was in there, and the violins sul ponticello tremolos were extracted, re-mapped for EXS24, and I extended the range of the samples so that they covered the whole 88-note keyboard. Many of the evil low tones are these high, thin violins played four octaves below their normal pitch, with the beginning of the samples truncated off, then heavily compressed, and filtered. The violins wide vibrato were extracted, edited as individual wave files, and remapped in EXS24 so that I could simulate endless upward glissando by playing certain samples in the correct order. Many of these samples have a moment where they bend upwards by about a half step, so I found the ones that did this, edited them so that event was at the beginning of the sample, and then mapped them across all 88 keys so I could create that endless upward glass using individual MIDI notes. I also used PaulStretch to double and quadruple the lengths of the samples, and the resulting three key maps allowed me to shape the glissando any way I wanted, up to nearly a minute to travel two octaves. Same with the french horns wide vibrato samples, although these were all pitched down an octave before use, so I only needed to PaulStretch these by 2x. The trombone section bends down half-step were used in a similar manner - pitched down an octave, PaulStretched, and remapped, and these let me create long muted bend downers that started and ended on solidly discernible pitches.

- Malmsjo Piano - all I had to do with this was drop the pitch of all the samples by an octave and add Eventide BlackHole. Maybe this qualifies as using a "factory preset"? Same reason I used the Tina Guo legato cello. I only needed about twenty seconds of emotional cello playing "normally" for about eight notes. Not worth the hassle to get a player in, set up the mics, only to get basically the same result.

Here and there were some "normal" orchestral patches like Kirk Hunter's string section tremolo (from the Akai S-1000 CD-ROM era), muted strings samples from Miroslav or Denny Jaeger or some other ancient library, and LASS spiccatos. But in all of those cases I am remapping samples outside their normal pitch range so that I can play samples pitched down to give them a darker and more ethereal sound. The low strings sustains on that score are actually violin sections played two or three octaves below normal pitch. Normal "low strings" just don't sound the same - they just sound "normal". 

Most of the rest of the stuff was samples I made of feedback guitar, processed lap steel, bowed metal instruments built by Chas Smith, et cetera ad infinitum. I've been recording and collecting samples for thirty-four years, and I keep and categorize *everything*. In fact, there's two samples I used on Wayward Pines that are from the original Ensoniq Mirage I bought in 1984 or so. A single note from their factory high strings patch that I truncated and play five octaves below normal pitch to create an aliased digital low tone, and a single percussion hit that was originally a floor tom I sampled into the Mirage. That floor tom sample sounds awful, but pitched down it is a wonderfully dirty and aliased "doom hit" that I still use to this day. Each time I changed my sampling platform, I'd convert, export, and find a way to bring all of my favorites with me - that's why it takes me two seconds to find a sound I made thirty years ago, and I don't think my scores would sound the way they do if I couldn't draw from all of these disparate sources.

Are my scores and sounds 100% handcrafted? Depends on how you define the term. When it comes to something like a spiccato strings sample set, it's not like I'm going to go and sample my own. You don't need to hand-draw the freaking waveforms of every sample for it to sound different to what everyone else uses. I mean, it's only a stupid spiccato patch - not worth the effort to try and improve on the massive amount of work that library developers have already done. It's going to be buried in the murk, just chugging along and adding weight, taking the role of a synth bass in a score in which synth would sound out of place. But I still need to have every available variation so that I can re-pitch, layer, edit, and combine them to get the sound I want. The resulting spiccato part uses patches from eight or more libraries, stacked and re-pitched, to create a murky chug that no single library could do. My "spiccatos" track stack in Logic has sixteen low and sixteen high sample sets (all converted to EXS24) so that I can quickly layer and combine them on the fly, truncating sample starts using a mod matrix routing to get the attacks to hit the way I want, differently for each cue if needed. Some of those spiccatos go all the way back to Miroslav, Denny Jaeger, and the old Sonic Implants libraries I bought on Akai S-1000 CD-ROMs! Sometimes I'm using high violins spiccatos played three octaves below normal pitch, and there's no way could I do what I do by just using Kontakt libraries, since the developers only map them across the normal pitch range of the original acoustic instrument. I'd be under the hood, trying to edit the maps of 100 sample groups, all week long. I'd lose my mind!

So... ya pick yer battles. If you spend all day making a pad out of a feedback guitar, then you might only have five minutes to spend selecting a spiccato strings patch (or twenty!). That said, I've spent the last six months doing nothing but sound design, recording new raw material (as well as auditioning newly purchased sample libraries), extracting the tiny molecules that I might want to use, categorizing, processing, naming, and mapping them so they'll be in the EXS24 browser (aka the "quick-draw holster") when the next short-deadline job comes along. More than 2tb of "possibles" added to my library since January. 

Oof.


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## JEPA (Jul 21, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> Well, I'm not sacrificing the sound design aspect at all. Scrolling through presets is just to find a starting point for further processing. It's not like I'm going to start with "Init Patch" and a sine wave every single freaking time!
> 
> Can you pick out any factory presets used on Wayward Pines? Even if I tell you where some of the starting points came from? Here's a few libraries that I used as starting points on that series:
> 
> ...


Thanks for this great insight of your work!


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## CoffeeLover (Jul 21, 2018)

robgb said:


> I have eight guitars. Not sure that's a crime.


eight bass guitars here 
plus a Gretsch Jet barritone guitar 
i also am looking into buying myself a Duesenberg TV series guitar,
you wouldn't happen to own one of those?


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## robgb (Jul 21, 2018)

CoffeeLover said:


> eight bass guitars here
> plus a Gretsch Jet barritone guitar
> i also am looking into buying myself a Duesenberg TV series guitar,
> you wouldn't happen to own one of those?


Nope. Sorry.


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## Alex Niedt (Jul 21, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> Well, I'm not sacrificing the sound design aspect at all. Scrolling through presets is just to find a starting point for further processing. It's not like I'm going to start with "Init Patch" and a sine wave every single freaking time!
> 
> Can you pick out any factory presets used on Wayward Pines? Even if I tell you where some of the starting points came from? Here's a few libraries that I used as starting points on that series:
> 
> ...


This may be the coolest post I've read on this forum. Thanks so much for sharing!


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## Vik (Jul 22, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> So why do I need seventy different spiccato patches? Because most of them are shit.



That could be used as an argument pro buying more libraries, but also as an argument against buying libraries with articulations that are shit.


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## charlieclouser (Jul 22, 2018)

Vik said:


> That could be used as an argument pro buying more libraries, but also as an argument against buying libraries with articulations that are shit.



Very true - but you usually don't know they're shit until after you've bought, installed, and integrated them into your template, and by then it's too late!

But I usually manage to find something useful in just about every library purchase. Even if the spiccatos are crappy, there might be a cool cluster-sustain sample lurking in there somewhere - and I do love me some cluster-sustains.


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## Motr3b (Jul 22, 2018)

robgb said:


> Yeah, I have the same issue with people who don't bother to learn how to mix because the library sounds great out of the box.


and i have the same issue with those who believe they don't need to learn music theory.


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 22, 2018)

Great thread.

I'm not adverse to spending money on a good library I know I'll get a ton of use out of.
But for the "one off" stuff, I'm finding sounds.com and splice are great resources for sound effects, interesting loops and stuff that falls outside the "another string library" thing.

Heads up: Some of the popular library companies on this forum have a presence on these sites too. If you're after a quick orchestral riser or atonal hit, you might find what you need without spending $$ on another library.


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## J-M (Jul 22, 2018)

Well I'm a student so most of the money I make is during the summers and that's a very limited amount anyways. I don't buy "all these" libraries, I buy those that inspire me/I see necessary to own. I think really carefully before I invest significant amounts of money into something...and let me tell you, it's hard when everything seems to be on sale all the time.


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## Simon Ravn (Jul 22, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> Well, I'm not sacrificing the sound design aspect at all. Scrolling through presets is just to find a starting point for further processing. It's not like I'm going to start with "Init Patch" and a sine wave every single freaking time!
> 
> Can you pick out any factory presets used on Wayward Pines? Even if I tell you where some of the starting points came from? Here's a few libraries that I used as starting points on that series:
> 
> ...



Awesome post, Charlie, very inspiring and insightful! Makes me wish I had projects where there was both reason and time to dwelve so deep into samples. Obviously my experience with doing what you do, processing individual samples, making your own combination patches like that is non-existant, so it would be a new world to me. But I love the idea that you really need to put in this much hard work to create a new sonic universe. I have only gotten as far as finding presets as starting points, manipulating them slightly and then layering them with other things. It can get you some of the way but certainly not as far as you are going, amazing! I wish I had a project that called for that and where I had the time for that (although lack of time could sometimes be an excuse for being lazy, I know).

I loved Wayward Pines, didn't realize you did the score. For how long did you work on that show? And how much of the time would you say that you were composing, compared to how much time you used on making up the sonic universe? If you don't mind those questions


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## Eptesicus (Jul 22, 2018)

lastmessiah said:


> I don’t mean this to be confrontational at all, I’m really just confused as to why you would need so many different orchestral libraries. I see threads that are like “I have X, Y, and Z, should I get YY or ZZ next?” and I’m left scratching my head. As a Composer Cloud X subscriber I find that there are so many variations in timbre and dynamics I can achieve through programming, expression, effects, etc that I can’t imagine I will need much else in the way of orchestral samples for the foreseeable future.
> 
> Is it just a fun addiction for most of you or am I missing something by not collecting all the new releases?



If you want to listen to the exact same group of violins playing the exact same note in exactly the same space then sure, you can use the exact same orchestral library for everything for the rest of your life.

Sure you can change things somewhat with various cc parameters etc but everytime you want some violas to play a forte Bb, you are essentially listening to exactly the same violas plating exactly the same forte Bb every god damn time.

Also the amount of techniques instrumentalists can use is HUGE.

For example I have a few orchestral libraries, but I bought HO intimate textures as literally nothing I had could create those specific string playing techniques.

Having only one orchestral library as a composer is like being a painter with a paint palette containing only the colours blue and red.


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## Tice (Jul 22, 2018)

Eptesicus said:


> If you want to listen to the exact same group of violins playing the exact same note in exactly the same space then sure, you can use the exact same orchestral library for everything for the rest of your life.
> 
> Sure you can change things somewhat with various cc parameters etc but everytime you want some violas to play a forte Bb, you are essentially listening to exactly the same violas plating exactly the same forte Bb every god damn time.
> 
> ...


That worked out pretty well for Mondriaan


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## SBK (Jul 22, 2018)

How about, some better sounding ones are new and awesome?


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## Henu (Jul 22, 2018)

MrLinssi said:


> ...it's hard when everything seems to be on sale all the time.



It's actually something I've learned to live with. If I don't buy it now, I can be pretty sure the next sales will come within the next six months anyway.  

On topic, I asked the same question still in late 2016 while I had happily used EWQLSO Gold since forever. 
After trying out Cinebrass at work, it took me a couple of months and I had already got myself a ton of new libraries due to realizing what I was missing. 

The more I have worked with the different libraries during these year and a half, the more I have realized the differencies between them and when to use which one. I do mostly game music and ads for the games, so one day I may need a williamsesque sound, then a soundalike of a pop song... and another day I'm asked to do 40´s jazz music. Sure, sometimes I do purchases which I feel have been a complete miss, but most of the time I have found some use to them in different contexts. Then again, I might had achieved the same results with some tweaking of another library I already had, so it's hard to say, hah!


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## Francis Bourre (Jul 22, 2018)

On my side, I lived from music during 12 years. I quit in 2001 because it starts to be hard to pay the bills.
Now, I'm software architect, and music is still my passion, how it could be another way... 
I have no problem to write that I'm glad to buy most of all the sound libraries that I want, like a kid in a toys shop. It's my passion, and it takes all my free time, and most of my money. That's what I enjoy, experimenting and playing with new sounds.
Why should I feel guilty or hung-up more than people spending their money in something else? 
That's what makes me happy daily, and I'm motivated to buy even more before the end of this year.


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## charlieclouser (Jul 22, 2018)

Simon Ravn said:


> For how long did you work on that show? And how much of the time would you say that you were composing, compared to how much time you used on making up the sonic universe? If you don't mind those questions



I scored both ten-episode seasons of Wayward Pines - all 20 episodes - and I did the main titles theme as well. Since it was trying to be more like a cable series, we spent more time on each episode than we would have on a 22 episode season like other shows I've done. I often had as much as two weeks per episode, but as we got towards the end of each season things got compressed until we were right back on a one-week-per-episode schedule.

Once we had done the spotting session for an episode, I spent pretty much zero time doing sound design - it's a mad dash for the dub stage. But during breaks in the schedule, any time when I didn't have an episode on deck, I could do a bit of sound design work.

But it usually goes like this: I meet the people, get a look at the pilot, and then they want to hear a sketch or two before I get hired - and that's done really quickly, sort of as a test to see if I can work fast. So, I have to do those "audition" cues in a couple of days (or by the next day). This means that I don't have any custom sounds or a template built just for that show yet, and I have to just use whatever template I have lying around that's close enough, and scramble to swap in sounds that I think will work. If they like those cues, I get hired. Then I will have at least couple of weeks to score the pilot, maybe more. If I have two weeks, I spend a week making new sounds and building a custom template for the series. Sometimes I have even more time, maybe a month or more, before I need to deliver that first episode, and I use all but the last week making sounds and doing the template.

In the case of Wayward Pines I think I had three weeks to score the pilot, so I spent a week making new sounds by recording feedback guitars and whatever else, and then a week building a new template that I could use for the whole series, that had every sound I thought I'd need, all my stem and fx routings, and about one-third of the instrument slots left open so I could swap in new sounds without removing anything. Then I scored the pilot, didn't really have any do-overs or go-backs, just a couple of overlays and minor notes. Then I had a couple of weeks while they finished editing episode two, and I did the main titles theme during that gap. They liked my first pass on the theme, but after I scored the second episode someone suggested taking this six-note high female soprano vocal melody I'd used in the second episode and using that as the "trademark" Wayward Pines motif, and I went back and integrated that into the main titles theme. By that point we were up and running and it was just a mad dash for the finish line.

So, the vast majority of my in-depth sound design work happens in between gigs; all those long nights of naming and mapping samples. If it's a movie, it's a different story - there's time to build a whole new batch of sounds for each gig. If I have eight weeks on a movie I'll spend three of them making new sounds. But for tv I usually have to do most of that work in any gaps at the start and then use that stuff for the duration of the series - besides, of course, any new recordings done during the episodes to solve a particular problem on one cue that I can then re-use on later cues in the same vein.

That's why I've spent the last six months doing nothing but sound design, instrument building, and precisely naming and categorizing new samples and instruments. I probably put in about sixty hours a week doing this. Actually, it's more like a year, since the last big movie I delivered was Jigsaw which mixed last May or so. Since then I did the Jigsaw and Saw Anthology album releases, which took a month or two to put together, a remix, and a bunch of traveling, but when I'm home and unemployed I'm in the lab pretty much every day chopping samples. So... it's a lot of time invested. But I like it. It's like gardening - out in the back yard, no pressure, just trimming the weeds. Start and stop when I feel like it. Always a movie playing on the big screen in the studio.

The key thing to making it work for me is having my own internal naming schemes that have developed organically over the decades. Certain sounds have inherited certain unique names over the years - "PowerStation Kicks" (abbreviated to "PSkick") sound like, well, those PowerStation or Robert Palmer records with Tony Thompson. "Slave" drums sound like NIN's "Happiness in Slavery". Other tags are things like Cubiks (like that sound in 808 State's "Cubik"), Rocks (pitched down distorted drums that sound like rocks being crushed), etc etc etc times a zillion. My master "synths" samples/instruments folder (which barely has any synth samples in it) has sub-folders with names like:

- Akutex (acoustic textures)
- Ambisyns (ambient sounds)
- Blasts (like Braams but my own stuff)
- Motion (sounds with that Digital Native Dance type of bubbling, non-tempo-synced motion)
- RezNoiz (tuned noise with resonant filter that gives it a pitch)
- Shards (backward metal fragments)
- Sucks (reverse sounds with a hard stop)
- Stings (one-shot accent sounds with a sharp attack and long release)
- Swipes (one-shot accent sounds with a slow attack and long release)
- Scapes (wandering, event-style sounds that are like mini-soundscapes)
- Synths (this is where actual synth samples go)
- Tiny (itty-bitty sounds)

etc. times a million. There's actually about 40 of these sub-folders in the "synths" folder, and inside each of these sub-folders is anywhere from 30 to 600 EXS24 instruments that each use between one and a billion samples. The sheer number and precision with which my libraries are organized is ridiculous - but when I want to find a bowed water phone with steady pitch it takes me three seconds, and I don't use command-F or any search function because I probably know what it's called - but even if I don't remember the exact name of the instrument, I definitely know exactly what folder it's going to be in.

I use EXS because I can navigate my entire library with Logic's browser and the arrow keys on the keyboard, and all but the biggest patches load in less than a second. So if I know I want an acoustic texture, it takes two seconds to load the first one in the folder and then I can scroll through them like changing patches on a Roland ROMpler - just "bam! no. bam! no. bam! no. bam! hmmm, maybe" Then, to keep that sound on the current instrument and move to the next instrument it's only: option-command-C (copy channel strip), down arrow (select next track), option-command-V (paste channel strip), and continue browsing from where I left off. It is so fast and so good - but it requires that the contents of the EXS library are well named and well organized.

The same principle can work with Kontakt's QuickLoad browser, but I don't use that. What I do for Kontakt is to leave all of the original .nki files in their original location, but duplicate them all out to a new set of folders that conforms to my naming and organizational scheme. That way the spiccatos from LASS are in the same folder as the spicccatos from every other library for quick comparison without navigating up and down through folders or messing with Kontakt's libraries pane. I name my orchestral instruments (both EXS and NKI) like this:

violins-SPICCATO rr6-lass = violin section - spiccato articulation - 6-way round-robin - LASS library
violins-SPICCATO soft-ewql = violin section - spiccato articulation - soft version - EastWest Quantum Leap library

and

violin-SUS EXP slow-sym1 = violin solo - sustains expressivo articulation - slow attack version - Symphobia vol1
violin-SUS mw-sym2 = violin solo - sustains articulation - mod wheel version - Symphobia vol2

This way, all similar articulations, across ALL of my libraries, are located in the same folder, and sort in the alphabetized list view in a way that is easy to navigate, and I can be sure that there are not any spiccato patches hiding in some other folder that I forgot where I put it.

So... yeah, I'm a bit of a fiend for organization. But in my previous lives doing albums and being in bands, I was always the guy who had to keep track of what sounds, samples, mixes, etc. were stored on what Syquest cartridge (or floppy disc!), so by now it just comes naturally.

And, like may others, at this point I usually buy libraries on sale. If it seems like it might have anything remotely interesting, and it's half-price, well....

*adds to cart* "sigh"


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Jul 22, 2018)

GAS is definitely a real thing, and I’ve definitely been guilty of this in the past. Having said that, I’ve learned more and more about the libraries I do own, and GAS becomes easier to manage with each passing day. 

I currently work with 2 workhorse strings, winds, brass, and percussion libraries each, with each having a specific purpose and character.


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## Simon Ravn (Jul 22, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> I scored both ten-episode seasons of Wayward Pines - all 20 episodes - and I did the main titles theme as well. Since it was trying to be more like a cable series, we spent more time on each episode than we would have on a 22 episode season like other shows I've done. I often had as much as two weeks per episode, but as we got towards the end of each season things got compressed until we were right back on a one-week-per-episode schedule.
> 
> Once we had done the spotting session for an episode, I spent pretty much zero time doing sound design - it's a mad dash for the dub stage. But during breaks in the schedule, any time when I didn't have an episode on deck, I could do a bit of sound design work.
> 
> ...



Thanks for taking the time responding, Charlie. This is crazy! In a good way of course. A LOT of time spent collecting/recording/categorizing sounds. Impressive, I wish I had the patience (and skill) to do that kinda thing. And it seems it has paid off for you, so well done! Also, incredible that you only have a couple of weeks to do a pilot and one week to do a whole episode, urgh!

Thanks again, very cool reading!


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## robgb (Jul 22, 2018)

Motr3b said:


> and i have the same issue with those who believe they don't need to learn music theory.


Apples and oranges.


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## lastmessiah (Jul 22, 2018)

@charlieclouser Thanks so much for the insight into your work, I learned a lot!


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## SoNowWhat? (Jul 22, 2018)

I still buy but less frequently and am usually much more particular. I have most bases covered (and most basses for that matter). It was different while I was still filling in the blanks and had a pretty good idea of what I wanted, I’d be jumping in whenever I could and it took about 2 years to complete my set, with a few detours. Now I try to really evaluate if I need a thing before jumping in. 

I’ve had a couple of occasions recently where a sale has gone up and I’m thinking “awesome! Got to get this”, but I always wait several days and assess in depth. Review what I already have that might be similar and often the gas goes away when I do that. There are a couple of odds and ends that I have on my “list” but none are pressing and I’m trying to wait until I actually need them. 

There was an earlier post though that said something like; this is a hobby and if I have budget for the thing and want to get it then I’m not going to feel overly guilty about it. I’d agree with that too. My neighbour has a ski boat and I have my music. It gives me great pleasure and I can share fun musical experiences with my autistic son too. I love the look on his face when we play really crazy synth sounds, or crank up the guitar amp with some crunchy goodness, or smash out some ad hoc beats on midi pads. Haha. Simple pleasures and much joy.


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## Mornats (Jul 22, 2018)

Came here to see what people were saying about buying sample libraries. Ended up learning loads from Charlie. Cheers!


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## Parsifal666 (Jul 22, 2018)

I've bought five libraries in just over a year (just a year before that I bought a total of nine); the Bernard Herrmann Orchestral Toolkit (fantastic), Met Ark 1 (argh, I could have done most of that with what I already had), Garritan CFX (WOW) and Evos 1 and 3 (I was all set with Evo 2 and 4, and felt like those last mentioned purchases were more like completing a collection...which is bad when it comes to money).

So, the final talley is two out of four I bought I was completely, happily satisfied with. The other three (totaling something like 1500 US) I deeply regret.

From here on spending is going to get way more restricted. I think the Hein solo viola and cello and bass are essentials, especially considering how well I've learned to work with the other Hein instruments. Other than those I am in the air...I have so much great stuff right now.


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## Lassi Tani (Jul 22, 2018)

Yes.


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## Quasar (Jul 22, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> ...What I do for Kontakt is to leave all of the original .nki files in their original location, but duplicate them all out to a new set of folders that conforms to my naming and organizational scheme. That way the spiccatos from LASS are in the same folder as the spicccatos from every other library for quick comparison without navigating up and down through folders or messing with Kontakt's libraries pane. I name my orchestral instruments (both EXS and NKI) like this:
> 
> violins-SPICCATO rr6-lass = violin section - spiccato articulation - 6-way round-robin - LASS library
> violins-SPICCATO soft-ewql = violin section - spiccato articulation - soft version - EastWest Quantum Leap library
> ...



Interesting. And then you batch resave or whatever so the duplicated nki knows where the samples are from the alternative location?

The notion of somehow having all Kontakt instruments organized by instrument/articulation in my own customized directory structure is extremely appealing, and merits looking into.


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## ptram (Jul 22, 2018)

R. Soul said:


> Why do people have 15 guitars?


I've only four of them. So, I must still be Ok!


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## wst3 (Jul 22, 2018)

ptram said:


> I've only four of them. So, I must still be Ok!


For the record, I believe everyone should own one guitar for every year they've been on this earth - no more, no less.

Sadly I am way behind!!!


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## wst3 (Jul 22, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> The same principle can work with Kontakt's QuickLoad browser, but I don't use that. What I do for Kontakt is to leave all of the original .nki files in their original location, but duplicate them all out to a new set of folders that conforms to my naming and organizational scheme. That way the spiccatos from LASS are in the same folder as the spicccatos from every other library for quick comparison without navigating up and down through folders or messing with Kontakt's libraries pane. I name my orchestral instruments (both EXS and NKI) like this:
> 
> violins-SPICCATO rr6-lass = violin section - spiccato articulation - 6-way round-robin - LASS library
> violins-SPICCATO soft-ewql = violin section - spiccato articulation - soft version - EastWest Quantum Leap library
> ...



thank you for that! You have inspired me - not enough to get me to put down the laptop and get started, but that is some real food for thought!

I tried something very similar to that using QuickLoad, but ran into some limit that stopped me.

Using the OS filesystem to organize is really quite clever. I feel a little silly for not thinking of it.

Since the weather is cooperating I will spend the rest of the daylight hours working outside, but when it gets dark it is time to start planning. My least favorite task, but one that always pays off. I may well owe you the beverage of your choice!


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## kitekrazy (Jul 22, 2018)

whitewasteland said:


> @midi-et-quart : Please allow me to disagree here
> 
> Actually, you can compose something absolutely fantastic without touching a single CC line. You just need some paper or any notation software !
> 
> ...



Especially if they sound good with no VI but just the GM module.


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## kitekrazy (Jul 22, 2018)

ptram said:


> I've only four of them. So, I must still be Ok!



I use to go into Guitar Center like a person would go into a pet shop. Pet a puppy and end up taking it home. These were usually lower price guitars. I decided to move and couldn't take all of them with me. I traded them all in and got an LP Studio and Taylor Acoustic. I have 3 electrics, 6 and 12 string, 4 and 5 string bass. I should like maybe.....play them. There is one conclusion I have come to is that I'm a lazy musician and more lazy than musician.


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## ScarletJerry (Jul 22, 2018)

I have at least one of every orchestral instrument, plus a few guitars and some moderately priced choir libraries. I also have a few Syntronik libraries. I really don’t need anything else, but if someone releases a breakthrough instrument library that’s under $100, I’ll grab it without hesitation

There is something to be said for “learn and use what you have.” I was recently running through some patches in the Korg M1 and Wavestation, and I couldn’t believe the realism of the classical percussion patches. It’s a great example of older samples that still sound amazing.

Scarlet Jerry


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## Heinigoldstein (Jul 22, 2018)

A bit out of topic maybe, but with all respect I strongly disagree. If somebody doesn't care much about mixing skills and has no clue about music theory, but comes up with a brilliant piece of music, hurray, that's what counts. And I know quiet a lot of musicians and composers, who are not deeply interrested in one or the other ( no, I don't talk about me ) and are doing well. It would even decrease their creativity, I guess. And if wet libraries do the job, great. As long as you reach the goal, every way is fine.


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## MaxOctane (Jul 22, 2018)

kitekrazy said:


> There is one conclusion I have come to is that I'm a lazy musician and more lazy than musician.



Well, you learned something about yourself, and that's invaluable!!


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 22, 2018)

I only buy new libraries if I get a new gig that can justify it...or simply treat myself occasionally. EW Could is great, but over the years you get tired of the same stuff over and over again. Buying a new library has a degree of inspiration that I really enjoy. I always research the hell out of a library before buying though (with the exception of 8Dio Adagio which I bought on a whim during a sale).


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## robgb (Jul 22, 2018)

Heinigoldstein said:


> With all respect I disagree. If somebody doesn't care much about mixing skills and has no clue about music theory, but comes up with a brilliant piece of music, that's what counts. And I know quiet a lot of musicians and composers who are not interrested in one or the other. It would even decrese their creativity, I guess.
> 
> 
> A bit out of topic maybe, but with all respect I strongly disagree. If somebody doesn't care much about mixing skills and has no clue about music theory, but comes up with a brilliant piece of music, hurray, that's what counts. And I know quiet a lot of musicians and composers, who are not deeply interrested in one or the other ( no, I don't talk about me ) and are doing well. It would even decrease their creativity, I guess. And if wet libraries do the job, great. As long as you reach the goal, every way is fine.


A textbook knowledge of music theory isn't needed to write great music. Many composers and songwriters we revere have never formally learned theory. One of the greatest melodists in modern history was never schooled in music theory and he's written some of the most beautiful, recognizable tunes any of us have ever heard. That said, I have nothing against learning music theory. For some it will be helpful. But you do not need it in order to compose.

On the other hand, if you want to produce your compositions and make them sound good enough to compete in a very flooded marketplace, then you absolutely should learn how to mix. Of course, there are those who are willing to pay others to do the mixing, but in most cases—except those on big projects or who have money to burn—composers are working alone and need to be able to deliver well-mixed tracks.

So, as I said, apples and oranges.


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## Motr3b (Jul 22, 2018)

robgb said:


> Apples and oranges.


Really??


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## Motr3b (Jul 22, 2018)

robgb said:


> A textbook knowledge of music theory isn't needed to write great music. Many composers and songwriters we revere have never formally learned theory. One of the greatest melodists in modern history was never schooled in music theory and he's written some of the most beautiful, recognizable tunes any of us have ever heard. That said, I have nothing against learning music theory. For some it will be helpful. But you do not need it in order to compose.
> 
> On the other hand, if you want to produce your compositions and make them sound good enough to compete in a very flooded marketplace, then you absolutely should learn how to mix. Of course, there are those who are willing to pay others to do the mixing, but in most cases—except those on big projects or who have money to burn—composers are working alone and need to be able to deliver well-mixed tracks.
> 
> So, as I said, apples and oranges.



i hadn't seen this post of yours when i said "really?".
i have to disagree with you at some point. just because you can make music, even a beautiful one, with out knowing the music theory, it doesn't mean it's the right way to do so. just as you need to learn mixing to make your song have a better sound quality, you need to learn the theory to make them have a better structure.
you can make a beautiful small-to-medium sized cabin in the woods, even if you don't know much about architectural engineering, but you can't make a huge castle or a 10 floor building the same way.
at the end, they say music is the language of emotions, how are we supposed to speak in this language when we don't even know the grammar??


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## joebaggan (Jul 22, 2018)

robgb said:


> A textbook knowledge of music theory isn't needed to write great music. Many composers and songwriters we revere have never formally learned theory. One of the greatest melodists in modern history was never schooled in music theory and he's written some of the most beautiful, recognizable tunes any of us have ever heard. That said, I have nothing against learning music theory. For some it will be helpful. But you do not need it in order to compose.
> 
> On the other hand, if you want to produce your compositions and make them sound good enough to compete in a very flooded marketplace, then you absolutely should learn how to mix. Of course, there are those who are willing to pay others to do the mixing, but in most cases—except those on big projects or who have money to burn—composers are working alone and need to be able to deliver well-mixed tracks.
> 
> So, as I said, apples and oranges.



Nonsense. Not surprising coming from someone like robgb who doesn't know music theory and can't even read music notation. There's basic grammar in music like there is grammar you need to know to speak or write in any language. If you can't even be bothered to learn beginner to intermediate level theory let alone invest time to be competent on a musical instrument, then your music is very likely going to sound like it. Sure, if you want to write pop music you may not need it, but if you're writing concert/classical music for example you're going to need a lot of it. The majority of the great classical composers of the last few hundred years sure as heck knew it.


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## germancomponist (Jul 22, 2018)

robgb said:


> A textbook knowledge of music theory isn't needed to write great music. Many composers and songwriters we revere have never formally learned theory. One of the greatest melodists in modern history was never schooled in music theory and he's written some of the most beautiful, recognizable tunes any of us have ever heard. That said, I have nothing against learning music theory. For some it will be helpful. But you do not need it in order to compose.



Exactly what I thought for the most time of my life. Then I met my now being girlfriend. She is a very great composer and has studied composing. She not only knows the music theory, but she has it in her mind. While I often try what sounds the best, she has the solution in seconds, very often. But still ..... .


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## Alex Niedt (Jul 22, 2018)

Motr3b said:


> just because you can make music, even a beautiful one, with out knowing the music theory, it doesn't mean it's the right way to do so.


This is the single strangest thing I have read on this forum. Theory is a great tool to have at your disposal, but to say someone making beautiful music is doing it the wrong way if they don't know theory is mind-bogglingly ridiculous. Music is art, not an equation with a singular solution. And I've gotta say, the majority of the most unlistenable contemporary classical music I hear comes from theory obsessives.


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## robgb (Jul 22, 2018)

germancomponist said:


> Exactly what I thought for the most time of my life. Then I met my now being girlfriend. She is a very great composer and has studied composing. She not only knows the music theory, but she has it in her mind. While I often try what sounds the best, she has the solution in seconds, very often. But still ..... .


The beauty of composing is that there are many paths to success and everyone should do whatever works for them. Anything I say is a suggestion, not a mandate.


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## Mr Mindcrime (Jul 22, 2018)

I'm a hobbyist who has the good fortune to be able to afford more libraries than makes good sense. I do have a lib or two that I regret purchasing but fortunately, while collectively I've spent a small fortune, I haven't lost too much on any one library as I try to buy on sale and take advantage of good deals. As with many things over the course of my life, I do have a few purchase regrets but it didn't take long for me to realize that "another library" is not what it's gonna take to make me a great composer .... and I'm definitely not the type that succumbs to the marketing hype of every new product. It is definitely fun to purchase new sounds and with the music I create, a wide palette of sounds was/is needed. But...enough is enough for sure! 

Fortunately, I realized soon enough that it takes a lot of time to learn to use each library, if you expect to get anything out of them. So as it stands, I have a lifetime of learning and creating in front of me without needing to purchase anything else. I do have my sights set on one additional lib that's been on my wish list for a year or so (I keep talking myself out of hitting the purchase button time and time again), but I've definitely reached the point where I know I don't need anything else.....I just need to learn to use what I've got to create great music.


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## Motr3b (Jul 22, 2018)

Alex Niedt said:


> This is the single strangest thing I have read on this forum. Theory is a great tool to have at your disposal, but to say someone making beautiful music is doing it the wrong way if they don't know theory is mind-bogglingly ridiculous. Music is art, not an equation with a singular solution. And I've gotta say, the majority of the most unlistenable contemporary classical music I hear comes from theory obsessives.


you misunderstand what i'm saying
i didn't say someone who makes good music and doesn't know the theory, is doing it wrong.
i said just the fact that someone makes that beautiful music without having the knowledge of music theory, can't be considered as the disprove of the need for the music theory. just because someone does it, it doesn't mean we all should do it the same way and if you just ask those pop writers and rap producers and ... (who make nothing but garbage and then name it art and call themselves artists) if they know the goddamn music theory, they gonna say that they don't need it.
and those who do make beautiful & good musics despite the fact that they don't know the theory, they can obviously make even grater, more fantastic, more mind blowing songs, if they start learning the theory.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 22, 2018)

There are some people who amaze me with their energy level and obvious passion for their craft. It’s not the first time this thought has occurred to me, but reading through this thread, it’s obvious that Charlie Clouser is one of them.


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## robgb (Jul 22, 2018)

joebaggan said:


> Nonsense. Not surprising coming from someone like robgb who doesn't know music theory and can't even read music notation. There's basic grammar in music like there is grammar you need to know to speak or write in any language. If you can't even be bothered to learn beginner to intermediate level theory let alone invest time to be competent on a musical instrument, then your music is very likely going to sound like it. Sure, if you want to write pop music you may not need it, but if you're writing concert/classical music for example you're going to need a lot of it. The majority of the great classical composers of the last few hundred years sure as heck knew it.


What works for one, doesn't necessarily work for another. Some learn by ear, some learn using the math. There is no absolute answer to what the right path is. It sounds as if you're denigrating pop music. I'll frankly take the genius of Lennon/McCartney any day over the most accomplished modern classical composer. They learned theory purely through osmosis and never did learn to read a lick of music. And we'll be studying them and their effect on music--even modern classical music--for centuries to come. So let's get down off that high horse.


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## pderbidge (Jul 22, 2018)

I hope nobody minds me getting back on topic. I think that for some people, buying more VST's is a bad thing because it keeps them away from learning what they already have, but for others it's a way to get more inspiration by adding a new sound to the sonic pallet and again for others it's buying something that they are missing in their current setup. I just know that for me, whenever I start looking at what new VST is out there I end up wasting a lot of time researching instead of making music so I have to make a schedule to keep me on track or else I'll end up down the rabbit hole of collecting VST's that never end up getting touched. 
If your doing actual Orchestral scores than you are going to need to learn how those libraries work but if your doing more hybrid and experimental sound design type music like @charlieclouser then a large pallet of sounds can be very useful but notice that he still goes through all those libraries finding the gems and I think that's the key. Take the time to learn what you have before investing in something new. Once you know what you have it will be easier to decide what you want next. But most importantly, make music! I believe there are a lot of talented musicians out there who have ideas in their head but don't know how to get it of there and find themselves caught in the rabbit hole I find myself in from time to time. Every time I write something, no matter how bad it is, I learn something new that makes me get better.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 22, 2018)

Here’s how I see it in practical terms:

1. If you’re at Charlie’s level, why not buy practically everything? For 20k or 30k a year (give or take) you buy it all. You could even have a trusted assistant install and analyze individual strengths.

2. If you’re a younger person who isn’t supporting a family and aspires to reach Charlie’s level, you buy as much as you can afford and beyond. There are always those 10lb bags of rice and beans at Trader Joe’s.

3. If you’re a hobbyist or a part timer with a good paying day gig, you can probably buy most of what you want. What the hell, other people buy boats and expensive cars. The rise of hobbyists and part timers has been great for the M. I. industry.

4. If you’re like me (an aging small time media composer and songwriter these days) you buy some stuff but you want to make a profit rather than break even. That requires discipline, which I do my best to achieve.

I’m sure there are plenty of other individual scenarios.


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## Saxer (Jul 23, 2018)

It's healthy to *not* buy libraries just because they are new, on sale, or heavily discussed here. Any other reason is ok if you can afford it


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 23, 2018)

NYC Composer said:


> Here’s how I see it in practical terms:
> 1. If you’re at Charlie’s level, why not buy practically everything? For 20k or 30k a year (give or take) you buy it all. You could even have a trusted assistant install and analyze individual strengths.
> 
> 2. If you’re a younger person who isn’t supporting a family and aspires to reach Charlie’s level, you buy as much as you can afford and beyond. There are always those 10lb bags of rice and beans at Trader Joe’s.
> ...


Succinctly put. I put myself more or less at number 4. I need a solid reason to buy any library: Either a (possible) financial return, or an investment which will save me a ton of time.

Whilst I'm a big admirer of Charlie's approach, I'm not sure I have the headspace to manage so many libraries and data!


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## MaxOctane (Jul 23, 2018)

Yup. #3 here, checking in!

Also, I just bought Frozen Plain's Arctic Strings for $12 at audioplugin.deals. It's super!


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## GtrString (Jul 23, 2018)

I am an amateur rock guitarist, trying to branch out into media composing. As I see it with virtural instruments, it is like with guitars, that you need to have a pallette to work from. Two electric guitars, even with the same pickups recorded through the same signal chain, can sound different and inspire different compositions and styles to play. I feel it is the same, and perhaps even more so, with vi’s. I have most of ProjectSam and supplement with others, but I have come to appreciate the idea of composer clouds more. I feel it is very time consuming to find, evaluate, afford, install, implement and update new vi’s. I really need to reduce time spent on market surveillance.

So, for me, I would welcome more composer cloud options, like from Cinesamples, Orchestral Tools and Spitfire. I have not been keen on that business model, but as the longevity of virtual instruments are much shorter than with analog instruments, it makes sense that a company makes sure that the vi’s are updated rather than me. There is just too much to keep up with. I also feel that with a subscription it is easier to make developers accountable as you can always unsubscribe, so that model should keep them sharp as long as there are sufficient competition.

Even better if developers could work with the DAW companies, and provide a variety of premixed templates for cloud subscribers to import into sessions when you need a splash of woods, horns, percussions or strings (or all). That way companies could also make sure that their virtual instruments sounds the way they want us to hear them, and we could tweak to taste.


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## charlieclouser (Jul 23, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> I'm not sure I have the headspace to manage so many libraries and data!



Well, I'm not sure if I have the headspace to manage all that data either! Fifteen years ago it didn't seem so ridiculous to convert / extract / compile EWQLSO and Symphobia 1+2 (which was all I had back then) - but now that I've established that as my modus, I'm sort of stuck with it - and I feel bad / guilty / stupid for buying new libraries and NOT doing what I've always done. But the sheer deluge of new stuff in the last five years or so is starting to get overwhelming. One small upside is that when I get another library with 600 bowed cymbal sounds, I don't feel bad when I delete all but 88 of them (for a single 88-key menu patch). I can be ruthless because I know that I already have so many good sounds that if I make a hasty decision to delete something that it's not the end of the world.

That said, I've always been, and still am, a fan of interesting sounds almost as much as music itself. That's what got me into most (all?) of the gigs I've had. In fact, the reason I was first brought into the Reznor / NIN camp was through a college friend who was a producer on a NIN music video. They needed to do some sound effects for a mechanical / robot torture chair in the video, and rather than spend two days at a conventional audio post facility my buddy said, "I have a friend who's got a stupid collection of sounds, and he's a musician and programmer, and we could probably do the sound effects right here in the NIN studio instead of going to some square, boring studio in Burbank. He has all the same gear as you, Macs, Akai samplers - should be no problem." So Reznor was okay with it, and I drove up to the Manson murder house with a couple of 128mb optical discs full of samples of jackhammers, dentist drills, and electric motors in Akai S-1000 format. We had allocated two days to do the sound effects, but completed it in a few hours, and spent the rest of that first day playing video games - and I basically didn't leave until 10 years later. 

But why the hell did I have 256mb of samples of dentist drills and jackhammers in the first place? Because I've always been fascinated with sounds I've never heard before. I covet them. I want to manipulate them. I want to find a way to get a jackhammer or a piledriver synced to a drum beat so it's playing in time with the music (did this more than a few times actually!) I was always more fascinated with samplers and sample manipulation than I ever was with actual synthesizers. That's why horror movies and similar genres in which heavily sound-designed, but organic as opposed to electronic, music can work seemed a natural avenue for me.

I know I'll never use every single sound in my collection, not by a long shot. But it's still enjoyable to me to hear them. Sort of like a gardener spending a few hours at the nursery looking at all the wonderful species that they'll never actually plant in their back yard. 

But you never know when a recipe will call for some fresh basil, and I'm glad I can just snip it from the vine instead of running out to the store when the pasta is already boiling. And that's why we all collect sounds, right?


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 23, 2018)

NYC Composer said:


> 3. If you’re a hobbyist or a part timer with a good paying day gig, you can probably buy most of what you want. What the hell, other people buy boats and expensive cars. The rise of hobbyists and part timers has been great for the M. I. industry.



Totally. You could pick up a sweet library for the same price as a day of playing golf...heck, $300 is the gas to power that motor boat for a day!


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## jononotbono (Jul 23, 2018)

I can’t imagine writing music with the same sounds over and over. Choice is king and some days one library just isn’t right and the next day that same library is perfect depending on the music being written.

I usually buy new libraries per job and project. And the only thing from stopping me from owning even more than I currently have is money. I’ve never really understood why anybody would care what other people spend their money on nor have a problem with people buying many musical instruments. The more the merrier and it’s so much fun writing with such an arsenal at your finger tips to suit most moods and situations.

In past months I have actually spent more money on Music Theory courses and Piano Grades/lessons (of which I’m collecting an Upright Piano later this week) instead of sample libraries but the list of things I want to buy forever grows. There’s so much amazing stuff now! It’s a great time to be alive!


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## 667 (Jul 23, 2018)

One of the things I have been meaning to do is print out a piece of paper listing all of my sample libraries and synths and plug-ins and put it up by my DAW so every time I think I need something else I can just look at that list, see how much I have, realize how under used my stuff is already, and find a way to do what I need to do with what I have.

Maybe I'll even list the price I paid beside each one (if my heart can take it).


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## PaulBrimstone (Jul 23, 2018)

667 said:


> One of the things I have been meaning to do is print out a piece of paper listing all of my sample libraries and synths and plug-ins and put it up by my DAW so every time I think I need something else I can just look at that list, see how much I have, realize how under used my stuff is already, and find a way to do what I need to do with what I have.
> 
> Maybe I'll even list the price I paid beside each one (if my heart can take it).


I actually tried that a couple of weeks back. Problem was that by the time I finished, I a) had tired fingers, and b) had bought even more, so the list was immediately outdated. Sigh.


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## noises on (Jul 23, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> No, I am mostly transcribing 24/7 music and composing.


Wow, 24/7!!! Crazy time signature to dedicate yourself to


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## jononotbono (Jul 23, 2018)

PaulBrimstone said:


> I actually tried that a couple of weeks back. Problem was that by the time I finished, I a) had tired fingers, and b) had bought even more, so the list was immediately outdated. Sigh.



Google Sheets


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## JohnG (Jul 23, 2018)

jononotbono said:


> I usually buy new libraries per job and project. And the only thing from stopping me from owning even more than I currently have is money. I’ve never really understood why anybody would care what other people spend their money on nor have a problem with people buying many musical instruments.



100% Jono

I play tennis sometimes with a guy who has at least three convertible Rolls Royces. Does he _need_ three? One?

Duh!

He is the nicest fellow and very grateful for everything he has. (me too, actually, at least the grateful part)

Who cares if people buy everything?

*Book Learnin'*

regarding the other issue, the reason to learn theory and orchestration is not to be a know-it-all but to be able to arrive very quickly where you're aiming. It also helps to fix things fast if you are arranging, or orchestrating, or at a session and the "big moment" is not quite what the composer wanted. 

Plenty of times that's happened for me, and I got the biggest gig I ever had because I knew how to orchestrate and arrange first -- only later getting hired to compose.

When the orchestra is $10,000 an hour, it's nice to be able to fix something in seconds, not 20 minutes.


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## chillbot (Jul 23, 2018)

NYC Composer said:


> 1. If you’re at Charlie’s level, why not buy practically everything? For 20k or 30k a year (give or take) you buy it all. You could even have a trusted assistant install and analyze individual strengths.


Yeah if you are already pretty up-to-date on libraries, you can do it for a lot less than that... 8k to 10k per year will really keep you on top of all the new releases.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 23, 2018)

jononotbono said:


> I can’t imagine writing music with the same sounds over and over. Choice is king and some days one library just isn’t right and the next day that same library is perfect depending on the music being written.



And thanks to your advice, I bought Forest Kingdom II. I actually used it extensively on a recent project (although I had not intended to use it so soon), it opened up a ton of inspiration. You are right, firing up the same old VI's gets tiresome and mundane.


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## jononotbono (Jul 23, 2018)

JohnG said:


> 100% Jono
> 
> I play tennis sometimes with a guy who has at least three convertible Rolls Royces. Does he _need_ three? One?
> 
> ...



I’m on a mission now to get Grade 8 Music Theory and Grade 8 Piano asap. Currently on grade 2 theory and playing Grade 1 Piano pieces. Thought it would be good for many reasons eapecially sight reading. Baby steps. Noodling on the Piano has already yielded better results since memorising every Maj and Min scales and being able to play them. Obviously I’m trying to transcribe Music as well cause I think that’s the best way to internalise music but taking the Grades gives a bit of structure to learn. I see the value of spending money on this stuff. 

And yeah, I genuinely get excited trying out sample libraries. I’ve not bought anything I regret and have found at least something useful in all of them. Even using a sample library for what it’s not designed for usually leads to wickedly fun Sound Design.


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## jononotbono (Jul 23, 2018)

Wolfie2112 said:


> And thanks to your advice, I bought Forest Kingdom II. I actually used it extensively on a recent project (although I had not intended to use it so soon), it opened up a ton of inspiration. You are right, firing up the same old VI's gets tiresome and mundane.



It’s a cracking library isn’t it! Not always needed but knowing I have it is very useful thing!


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## KerrySmith (Jul 23, 2018)

Are we understanding that Charlie got his big big break because a friend of his knew that he had a bunch of torture sound effects?

Networking, people. Networking. 



charlieclouser said:


> That said, I've always been, and still am, a fan of interesting sounds almost as much as music itself. That's what got me into most (all?) of the gigs I've had. In fact, the reason I was first brought into the Reznor / NIN camp was through a college friend who was a producer on a NIN music video. They needed to do some sound effects for a mechanical / robot torture chair in the video, and rather than spend two days at a conventional audio post facility my buddy said, "I have a friend who's got a stupid collection of sounds, and he's a musician and programmer, and we could probably do the sound effects right here in the NIN studio instead of going to some square, boring studio in Burbank. He has all the same gear as you, Macs, Akai samplers - should be no problem." So Reznor was okay with it, and I drove up to the Manson murder house with a couple of 128mb optical discs full of samples of jackhammers, dentist drills, and electric motors in Akai S-1000 format. We had allocated two days to do the sound effects, but completed it in a few hours, and spent the rest of that first day playing video games - and I basically didn't leave until 10 years later.
> 
> But why the hell did I have 256mb of samples of dentist drills and jackhammers in the first place? Because I've always been fascinated with sounds I've never heard before. I covet them. I want to manipulate them. I want to find a way to get a jackhammer or a piledriver synced to a drum beat so it's playing in time with the music (did this more than a few times actually!) I was always more fascinated with samplers and sample manipulation than I ever was with actual synthesizers. That's why horror movies and similar genres in which heavily sound-designed, but organic as opposed to electronic, music can work seemed a natural avenue for me.
> 
> ...


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## charlieclouser (Jul 23, 2018)

KerrySmith said:


> Are we understanding that Charlie got his big big break because a friend of his knew that he had a bunch of torture sound effects?
> 
> Networking, people. Networking.



Well, like they say - opportunity may knock on the door, but you'd better answer the door fully clothed.

To be fair, by the time that first contact with NIN came around, I had already had a band in NYC, got signed to a major label, made a big-budget album that took months and cost $$$$, played CBGB a bunch, toured nationally on that album for a while, that record didn't sell and the band dissolved, worked as the number-three man on a team scoring a major CBS prime-time drama series, moved to LA and continued working as a programmer on tv scores, on the side did countless sessions as a drum programmer for dozens of major artists, got into the industrial / metal scene, did samples / synths / drum programming / remixes for White Zombie, Prong, Killing Joke, etc. etc. etc.

So I wasn't exactly fresh out of school when I first rolled up to the NIN house. I was 29 and had been at the bleeding edge of music tech for many years, and I had a bunch of remixes and album work for artists that Reznor already knew about - and liked. I didn't have to do much explaining about how and why I got there.

But, I guess that having an old college friend who's a music video producer would count as networking. Not the same as glad-handing directors at Sundance or whatever, but.... yeah.


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## KerrySmith (Jul 23, 2018)

Well put. 

Always do the thing, and then hopefully you won’t be caught pants-down when the doorbell rings unexpectedly. 



charlieclouser said:


> Well, like they say - opportunity may knock on the door, but you'd better answer the door fully clothed.
> 
> To be fair, by the time that first contact with NIN came around, I had already had a band in NYC, got signed to a major label, made a big-budget album that took months and cost $$$$, played CBGB a bunch, toured nationally on that album for a while, that record didn't sell and the band dissolved, worked as the number-three man on a team scoring a major CBS prime-time drama series, moved to LA and continued working as a programmer on tv scores, on the side did countless sessions as a drum programmer for dozens of major artists, got into the industrial / metal scene, did samples / synths / drum programming / remixes for White Zombie, Prong, Killing Joke, etc. etc. etc.
> 
> ...


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## Michel Simons (Jul 23, 2018)

667 said:


> One of the things I have been meaning to do is print out a piece of paper listing all of my sample libraries and synths and plug-ins and put it up by my DAW so every time I think I need something else I can just look at that list, see how much I have, realize how under used my stuff is already, and find a way to do what I need to do with what I have.
> 
> Maybe I'll even list the price I paid beside each one (if my heart can take it).



I actually did something similar with the stuff I have bought the last two years. I put them in a spreadsheet to remind me of what I have bought and sometimes hardly used. So every now and then, especially when I am at a loss for ideas, I will look at it.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 23, 2018)

KerrySmith said:


> Well put.
> 
> Always do the thing, and then hopefully you won’t be caught pants-down when the doorbell rings unexpectedly.


I always wear two pair of pants for this very reason.


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## Mornats (Jul 23, 2018)

In the UK pants means underwear so I hope none of us Brits get caught with their pants down.


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## jcrosby (Jul 24, 2018)

Mornats said:


> In the UK pants means underwear so I hope none of us Brits get caught with their pants down.


This explains why you guys keep your fannies on the front side of the bus while we keep ours on the rear


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## bryla (Jul 24, 2018)

NYC Composer said:


> I always wear two pair of pants for this very reason.


One is none and two is one


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## Giscard Rasquin (Jul 24, 2018)

michelsimons said:


> I actually did something similar with the stuff I have bought the last two years. I put them in a spreadsheet to remind me of what I have bought and sometimes hardly used. So every now and then, especially when I am at a loss for ideas, I will look at it.



Same here. Made a spreadsheet divided in three parts: hardware, software and music courses.
When I got over the initial shock realizing how much I’ve spent over the years in music, it’s actually quite handy to have as mentioned above to remember:
1. How much you’ve spent exactly and on what (also good to know in case you want to sell something)
2. Which libraries and FX you own (more than once made me go back to a library I already forgot about)
3. Watching flabbergasted the “total spent”, making me meditate a bit more about buying a new library or not 

Anyway, I personally think it’s a good thing to own a lot of libraries without putting on stake your financials. It gives you a big palette of sonic possibilities to work with and makes you understand the differences between sounds, libraries and developers so you can develop a sense of what works for you and when.
I also think there’s an educational aspect to it where you as a composer learn and grow by working with different libraries, different way to do things, new techniques etc.
I suppose that lots of top composers have a very thorough understanding of what libraries are available on the market as this is an indispensable tool for their craft and working on such a high level you’ll want to know about all the tools that could help you staying on top. There was this cool interview with HGW where he talks about starting to work with Hans Zimmer and how Hans had to co-sign a loan to get Harry 27 Roland samplers to be able to work with Hans 
So that is one extreme of the equation.
For us humble composers, I suppose that everybody has to realize for themselves in which stage they are as a composer and adjust their spending to their needs and financial capability but I personally do think that if you’re really really serious about this, you’re going to have to spent a good amount of money on libraries.
Yeezzz, that turned out a bit longer than expected.
Anyway, my two cents....


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## NYC Composer (Jul 24, 2018)

As a former owner of 5 of the 700 series Roland samplers and a playback unit, I can tell you that depending on when they were bought, the loan would have been between $54,000 and $85,000, not counting monitors, RAM or storage/loading media. The S-760 was expandable to 32 meg!! The 770, a mere 16 meg. 

The 700 series was the only mouse driven hardware sampler with a monitor output, as far as I know. It was cooler than ice for its time.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 24, 2018)

bryla said:


> One is none and two is one


Pair? Pairs? Pears?


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## Giscard Rasquin (Jul 24, 2018)

NYC Composer said:


> As a former owner of 5 of the 700 series Roland samplers and a playback unit, I can tell you that depending on when they were bought, the loan would have been between $54,000 and $85,000, not counting monitors, RAM or storage/loading media. The S-760 was expandable to 32 meg!! The 770, a mere 16 meg.
> 
> The 700 series was the only mouse driven hardware sampler with a monitor output, as far as I know. It was cooler than ice for its time.


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## Tice (Jul 24, 2018)

I see a lot of posts about letting libraries serve as inspiration. I pretty much never do this. I know what I want to make before loading up any samples so I only load what I need. And if I don't own what I need, I'll either see if the project has the budget for another purchase, or I make something else. But loading up a random library to get inspired, no.


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## Saxer (Jul 24, 2018)

Tice said:


> And if I don't own what I need, I'll either see if the project has the budget for another purchase, or I make something else. But loading up a random library to get inspired, no.


Same here. Only exception are synth presets.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 24, 2018)

GuitarG said:


> if you’re really really serious about this, you’re going to have to spent a good amount of money on libraries.



Agreed. And it's all relative. Sometimes I'm on the fence about shelling out $300 for a library, and then realize I spent $2000 on a rack mount Roland JV-2080 in the 90's....and before that an Ensoniq Mirage ($2000) and ASR ($3000)...and before that a Korg Poly 61...and the list goes on. So a library these days, even a big expensive one, is still small beans in the big scheme of things. And if you are serious about getting work as a composer, the investment is a no-brainer. You'll easily recoup the investment.


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## Tice (Jul 24, 2018)

Saxer said:


> Same here. Only exception are synth presets.


I don't work with synths very often. But I'd love to do more with them.


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## pderbidge (Jul 24, 2018)

jononotbono said:


> I can’t imagine writing music with the same sounds over and over. Choice is king and some days one library just isn’t right and the next day that same library is perfect depending on the music being written.



I too, like to have a wide palette of sounds to choose from, on the other hand I can also see how limiting one self is also a way of forcing you to be creative with what you have. I'm always amazed and inspired when I see people do incredible music with the most basic of sounds. It makes me realize that no amount of samples/VST's is going to make "me" a better musician but rather it's just another set of sounds and tools that I have access to.



jononotbono said:


> I’ve never really understood why anybody would care what other people spend their money on nor have a problem with people buying many musical instruments.



I don't think anyone really cares but rather just know how easy it is to accumulate a ton of libraries and then never get around to the whole purpose of all this GAS which is to make music! Having a lot of instruments is not the problem but spending 6 months on a spending spree and never writing a single piece of music is. Having all these people spend money on the latest instrument only fuels the sample industry to continue to innovate and make better tools for us, so in that regard I'm all for it but I genuinely hope that people are also spending equal, if not more, amount of time harnessing their craft and making the world a better place through inspiring music. Other than that, I could care less how much people buy.


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## Mornats (Jul 24, 2018)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Agreed. And it's all relative. Sometimes I'm on the fence about shelling out $300 for a library, and then realize I spent $2000 on a rack mount Roland JV-2080 in the 90's....and before that an Ensoniq Mirage ($2000) and ASR ($3000)...and before that a Korg Poly 61...and the list goes on. So a library these days, even a big expensive one, is still small beans in the big scheme of things. And if you are serious about getting work as a composer, the investment is a no-brainer. You'll easily recoup the investment.



A Spitfire Albion is a fair bit cheaper than most budget guitars. For the price of a USA Fender Precision you could buy Spitfire Symphony Orchestra and have change left over.


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## Saxer (Jul 24, 2018)

Mornats said:


> A Spitfire Albion is a fair bit cheaper than most budget guitars. For the price of a USA Fender Precision you could buy Spitfire Symphony Orchestra and have change left over.


True. But you can play the guitar ten years and then still sell it.


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## Mornats (Jul 24, 2018)

Don't tell anyone we're allowed to sell guitars!


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## Salohcin894 (Jul 24, 2018)

It's funny, I started out writing music 10+ years ago as a kid with no income and would scrounge around for ANY free VST or plugin that would work on the family mac.

Now my interests have completely shifted and after getting the Bernard Herrmann toolkit and Albion V, filled out with alternative solo strings and felt piano in the span of a year via some sales, I feel as though I'm "done" with my big library purchases. They give me the tools that play to the style I write in. Olafur Arnolds and Albion II both cater to my style, but there's just already so many tools in the libraries I have.

I'm back to crawling the web for free/small kontakt and reaktor instruments. It's addicting and fun finding those niche gems you can hide in the nooks and crannies of your chamber piece. Spitfire Labs was a joy, have about 18 instruments from them and then of course Perc+ and the recent rubberband box from ModWheel, alt-folk bundle from Rhythmic Robot, Atom Hubs fantastic free instruments and the clay cuckoo bird, and hopefully Colourform from FrozenPlain if it goes on sale soon. $3, $15, $20 instruments are just so easy to snap up and I love the idea of supporting more independent sample makers. So far I've been very pleased with everything!


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## pipedr (Jul 24, 2018)

Salohcin894 said:


> It's funny, I started out writing music 10+ years ago as a kid with no income and would scrounge around for ANY free VST or plugin that would work on the family mac.
> 
> Now my interests have completely shifted and after getting the Bernard Herrmann toolkit and Albion V, filled out with alternative solo strings and felt piano in the span of a year via some sales, I feel as though I'm "done" with my big library purchases. They give me the tools that play to the style I write in. Olafur Arnolds and Albion II both cater to my style, but there's just already so many tools in the libraries I have.
> 
> I'm back to crawling the web for free/small kontakt and reaktor instruments. It's addicting and fun finding those niche gems you can hide in the nooks and crannies of your chamber piece. Spitfire Labs was a joy, have about 18 instruments from them and then of course Perc+ and the recent rubberband box from ModWheel, alt-folk bundle from Rhythmic Robot, Atom Hubs fantastic free instruments and the clay cuckoo bird, and hopefully Colourform from FrozenPlain if it goes on sale soon. $3, $15, $20 instruments are just so easy to snap up and I love the idea of supporting more independent sample makers. So far I've been very pleased with everything!



Audio Plugin Deals has Frozen Plain stuff on sale. ColourForm is $12


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## blougui (Jul 24, 2018)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Agreed. And it's all relative. Sometimes I'm on the fence about shelling out $300 for a library, and then realize I spent $2000 on a rack mount Roland JV-2080 in the 90's....and before that an Ensoniq Mirage ($2000) and ASR ($3000)...and before that a Korg Poly 61...and the list goes on. So a library these days, even a big expensive one, is still small beans in the big scheme of things. And if you are serious about getting work as a composer, the investment is a no-brainer. You'll easily recoup the investment.



It's a bit different but hey, here I go : I've bought virtual instruments the last 10 years because I had been lucky enough to score for a couple of documentaries (2 different directors and that's it).Then the wind turned and I kept on buying libs with your same argument : it's so less expensive than the synths I bought years ago, then why bother ? It's just "No brainer" expenses. But now, if I add upp all my samples expenses, I realize I could have grabbed one of my dream synth machine. And sell it afterwards if I felt like it.

Now, there's no way I can resell my 1000s euros of libs, at the exception of a few brands. And that reeaally sucks, whatever arguments devs put forward to justify the No Resale policy.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 24, 2018)

blougui said:


> It's a bit different but hey, here I go : I've bought virtual instruments the last 10 years because I had been lucky enough to score for a couple of documentaries (2 different directors and that's it).Then the wind turned and I kept on buying libs with your same argument : it's so less expensive than the synths I bought years ago, then why bother ? It's just "No brainer" expenses. But now, if I add upp all my samples expenses, I realize I could have grabbed one of my dream synth machine. And sell it afterwards if I felt like it.
> 
> Now, there's no way I can resell my 1000s euros of libs, at the exception of a few brands. And that reeaally sucks, whatever arguments devs put forward to justify the No Resale policy.



Yeah, if you're not breaking even it's kind a tough one. I usually treat myself to a library with every decently paid gig, that way I feel better about it. And for me, I honestly would have no use for a hardware synth these days, other than looking cool in my studio.


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## LamaRose (Jul 24, 2018)

Simple solution: get the _demo_, test drive before you buy... oh wait... wrong industry


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## Salohcin894 (Jul 24, 2018)

pipedr said:


> Audio Plugin Deals has Frozen Plain stuff on sale. ColourForm is $12



Wow thanks for the heads up!


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## YogiFish (Jul 24, 2018)

midi-et-quart said:


> Well I try to spend only for VI's which are going to translate my ideas in a convincing way without much editing.
> 
> May sound lazy but I don't think that composing should mainly be a battle with CC curves and other things like that.
> Take Symphobia or the Metropolis Ark series as well as Organic Samples' solo vocals, they just sound great out-of-the-box and directly put you in the mood. I think that if you get hundreds of controllers to control before getting a decent sound, ... you probably lose a lot of time and that often isn't worth the instrument, even if it's free.



That's my same state of mind with virtual instrument library purchases. It's like buying a physical instrument, you want to play it.. not figure out how it was built. 

I do most of my programming with audio effect plugins (Reverbs, EQs, Delays etc)... that part is worth the extra effort to create your unique sound.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 24, 2018)

Saxer said:


> True. But you can play the guitar ten years and then still sell it.


If it's a good guitar, it will appreciate.


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## Mike Fox (Jul 24, 2018)

I used to buy libraries all the time, but only being a probbyist has pretty much put a cap on purchases for good. Besides, i already have everything i want/need.


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## JohnG (Jul 25, 2018)

Hey -- just remembered this from HZ. I think it's relevant because I don't have any staff to create sounds for me and I often get very little notice before I have to start working, so I don't have time either. Consequently, gleaning ahead of time what I like out of each library -- "pre curating" -- is indispensable.

This is taken from a longer post by HZ:

"Start with a concept of your sonic world. Limit your palette to fit the sonic world you're trying to create - you can get lost and never write a note if you scroll through 1000 presets on average sounding synth. I got rid of most VstIs and just work with the ones who's audio engines have real depth and quality, like Zebra and Diva, or the Virus. And yes, I have a lot of great old analogue synth that I bought for next to nothing when everyone ran out to buy a DX7. 

Before writing a single note, my team and I spend a lot of time programming new sounds, sampling new instruments."
[post continues] -- Hans Zimmer on this forum

So I do buy and warehouse a lot of sounds, from the orchestra to the sine wave, so I'm ready for action.


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## robgb (Jul 25, 2018)

Mornats said:


> A Spitfire Albion is a fair bit cheaper than most budget guitars. For the price of a USA Fender Precision you could buy Spitfire Symphony Orchestra and have change left over.


I can try a guitar out before I decide to buy it. And if I get tired of it after awhile, or it's not as great as I thought it was, I can sell it to someone else. Therein lies the difference between instruments and sample libraries. Imagine if Fender told us that, not only could we not resell our guitars, we are never allowed to loan it to a friend to use. If he wants to use a Fender guitar, he has to buy one, and he can't buy yours...


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## Mornats (Jul 25, 2018)

That is very true Rob, so perhaps not so good a comparison after all.

(Although I would never lend my Fender P bass to anyone and no one can ever buy that from me - we've bonded now and it's for life )


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## kitekrazy (Jul 25, 2018)

That comparison really fails when it comes to those who spent a fortune on Gigastudio libraries.


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## robgb (Jul 25, 2018)

kitekrazy said:


> That comparison really fails when it comes to those who spent a fortune on Gigastudio libraries.


I just took all my gigastudio libraries and converted them to Kontakt.


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## Robo Rivard (Jul 25, 2018)

Nobody should feel guilty about spending money on culture. Artists are "sponges" by nature, and it is our duty to keep up with everything. It's normal to try to get the best tools for what we want to achieve. Two pairs of jeans and five t-shirts is pretty much what you will need in a year, as far as personal maintenance goes... But gear... GEAR!... Who cares about anything, when you can get GEAR!... You never have enough GEAR!


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## Land of Missing Parts (Jul 25, 2018)

robgb said:


> I can try a guitar out before I decide to buy it. And if I get tired of it after awhile, or it's not as great as I thought it was, I can sell it to someone else. Therein lies the difference between instruments and sample libraries. Imagine if Fender told us that, not only could we not resell our guitars, we are never allowed to loan it to a friend to use. If he wants to use a Fender guitar, he has to buy one, and he can't buy yours...


True, but also consider that when a composer is hired to score a project, the client agrees without knowing exactly what they'll get. And more often than not, the client can't resell the product once it's delivered.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 25, 2018)

Children don’t REALLY need food. Rugrats!


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## Joshua Campbell (Jul 25, 2018)

The first library I purchased was NI Komplete (version 6 maybe?)… Shortly after, I picked up VDL (Virtual Drum Line)… All I really wanted to do at the time was make a more realistic sounding mockup of my arrangements. Finale playback wasn't my friend, and I wanted a better recording to share with players, so they could get a better idea of what I was looking for before the first rehearsal. It helped a little, but it didn't really get me where I wanted to go... Better ears, more experience, better rehearsal technique... blah, blah, blah... 

Anyways, I kept buying libraries... I think it has become a sort of addiction on some level. I absolutely don't need anymore libraries or plugins... but I keep looking to see what's coming out. And yes, I'm actually still buying libraries... And no, I'm not using them anywhere near as much as I should. I've got a few big career changes coming up and I'm going to go back to school. Hopefully, I'll be able to find time to do some creating... And I'll probably buy some more libraries (student discount and all...).


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Jul 26, 2018)

ceemusic said:


> Realistically studio musicians might need several guitars & some might be collectors.
> 
> On forums I see it more of an egotistical, narcissistic thing.
> There are those who constantly brag that they bought the latest library, plugin or they'll list all their gear in their signature.
> Usually it's a big clue.


I did start to wonder about that point on the signature. Personally, I am transparent and can admit I spend little to no time composing or using my gear for music primarily. I work in IT and bought my hardware for that role more.

PC was also originally purchased as a gaming system. But the mac was when I got into University in Music for Media and was on Logic Pro.

I only put the information in my signature to offer direction to new composers and so it is easier for troubleshooting really (guess that comes with thinking as a technician)...

Anyway enough ramblings, you have some solid points there


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 26, 2018)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> True, but also consider that when a composer is hired to score a project, the client agrees without knowing exactly what they'll get. And more often than not, the client can't resell the product once it's delivered.



Except you don't get paid if it's not what they want, their ass is covered if you don't deliver.


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## wst3 (Jul 26, 2018)

robgb said:


> I just took all my gigastudio libraries and converted them to Kontakt.


How well did that work for you? Did you, by any chance convert Scarbee's basses and Garritan's Orchestral Strings? These three libraries have caused me sufficient grief that I maintain a GS computer. There are others, of course, those three were the big ones. The NI/Scarbee basses pretty much cover the GS/Scarbee basses, but nothing replaces GOS. There are some great string libraries out there, and certainly GOS is a little long in the tooth, but I do enjoy listening to it!


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## ceemusic (Jul 26, 2018)

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> I did start to wonder about that point on the signature. Personally, I am transparent and can admit I spend little to no time composing or using my gear for music primarily. I work in IT and bought my hardware for that role more.
> 
> PC was also originally purchased as a gaming system. But the mac was when I got into University in Music for Media and was on Logic Pro.
> 
> ...



Having your setup in your sig is fine & a good idea. I'm talking about those who list every library, plugin or every single piece of gear they own including items like what guitar picks they use or color socks they wear when they're composing etc..


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## robgb (Jul 26, 2018)

wst3 said:


> How well did that work for you? Did you, by any chance convert Scarbee's basses and Garritan's Orchestral Strings?


Everything I converted has worked out fine, but no, I didn't convert these. Garritan's Orchestral Strings are included in GPO 5, so I just use them there.


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## Parsifal666 (Jul 26, 2018)

Robo Rivard said:


> Nobody should feel guilty about spending money on culture. Artists are "sponges" by nature, and it is our duty to keep up with everything. It's normal to try to get the best tools for what we want to achieve. Two pairs of jeans and five t-shirts is pretty much what you will need in a year, as far as personal maintenance goes... But gear... GEAR!... Who cares about anything, when you can get GEAR!... You never have enough GEAR!



Replace the word gear with money and you'll end up with all the gear you could ever want


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## Parsifal666 (Jul 26, 2018)

I have bought libraries mostly just for inspiration before...when the Bernard Herrmann Toolkit was announced I went on a BH spree, ultimately it helped me understand how to use the library to its best advantage. 

I knew I'd get inspired, so the money wasn't a big deal. I was...shoot, I wrote a whole noiresque symphony inspired by it (granted, it _*sucked*_ about as bad as the rest of my music. Probably worse because for a very short while I actually thought it might be good).


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## Mike Fox (Jul 26, 2018)

robgb said:


> I can try a guitar out before I decide to buy it. And if I get tired of it after awhile, or it's not as great as I thought it was, I can sell it to someone else. Therein lies the difference between instruments and sample libraries. Imagine if Fender told us that, not only could we not resell our guitars, we are never allowed to loan it to a friend to use. If he wants to use a Fender guitar, he has to buy one, and he can't buy yours...


And because sample libraries are rather snapshots of performances, and not real instruments, that allows developers to get away with stamping strict license policies on their products, ultimately binding their customers to something they may not like.

There really should be a more balanced relationship between developer and customer, but for the most part it's a one way road. Sometimes that road leads to buyer's remorse, something I've never seen so prevalant anywhere else.


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