# Shostakovitch Symphony 5 Largo



## brunodegazio (Oct 20, 2014)

I did this rendition of the coda to Shostakovitch's well known piece for a friend who is considering it for a film scene. 

It was challenging in that it's very slow and very quiet - mainly pp, with the 'loud' sections marked p. And all the strings are con sordino. 

I used the adaptive legato patches of Berlin Strings throughout, with the obvious exceptions of the first violins high tremolo at the end, and the viola pizzicato (very unobtrusive) a little earlier. 

In addition to the Berlin strings, I added a layer of solo cello using the Garritan Gofriller Cello. The harp and celeste come from the Kontakt 5 factory VSL patches. 

I took a couple of liberties with portamento and tempo but otherwise stuck pretty close to the score. 

Constructive comments welcome.


EDIT: Revised version:

[flash width=720 height=110 loop=false]http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F173151843&secret_url=false[/flash]




.


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## TGV (Oct 20, 2014)

At some points the sound is pretty convincing, but I am frequently hearing volume/timbre changes in the low/mid low string register, as if it's a tremolo, but it's too irregular for that.

BTW: Your friend should consider there still is copyright on Shostakovich' works!


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## brunodegazio (Oct 20, 2014)

> "At some points the sound is pretty convincing, but I am frequently hearing volume/timbre changes in the low/mid low string register, as if it's a tremolo, but it's too irregular for that. "


Thanks. I think I know what you mean about the 'tremolo'. The violas have a funny dynamic "wobble" that might be due to the sordino simulation. At least, I hadn't run into it when using them before, non-sordino. Or maybe it's a wolf-tone in the sampling. I might try a different patch if it's so noticeable that you heard it right away. 



> " BTW: Your friend should consider there still is copyright on Shostakovich' works!"


I've already referred him to Boosey and Hawkes licensing site - http://www.boosey.com/pages/filmtvadvertising/ - 
to figure out the synch licensing.


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## pavolbrezina (Oct 21, 2014)

Nice try but you should use other strings library. BS is known for its synthy unrealistic sound and a lot of glitches/bad scripting. It can be clearly heard in this example.


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## Jonathan Moray (Oct 21, 2014)

pavolbrezina @ Tue Oct 21 said:


> Nice try but you should use other strings library. BS is known for its synthy unrealistic sound and a lot of glitches/bad scripting. It can be clearly heard in this example.









Are you serious?

Sure the programming is not the best, but the sounds is truly beautiful.


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## Stephen Rees (Oct 21, 2014)

I think this kind of thing is just about as hard as it gets for realising mockups with samples. There is just nowhere to hide.

I don't know how you could do this any better. Bravo.


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## AC986 (Oct 21, 2014)

Also I'm not sure about putting this kind of thing up in Members Compositions.

Is Shostakovich a member here? Probably better off putting it up under Sample Talk.


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## Jonathan Moray (Oct 21, 2014)

@adriancook I'm not sure if you're joking, but Shostakovich died in 1975...


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## AC986 (Oct 21, 2014)

Jonathan Moray @ Tue Oct 21 said:


> @adriancook I'm not sure if you're joking, but Shostakovich died in 1975...



FFS. Are you a complete moron?


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## Stephen Rees (Oct 21, 2014)

I suppose it is a bit of a grey area where you put a mockup of an existing classical work. It isn't a 'Members Composition' as such, but this is just the forum where one could hope to get feedback on improving one's mockups - so where is the best place to put them? I don't know 

Thanks for posting the mockup Bruno. I haven't listened to Shostakovich's symphonies for a long long time and your mockup has inspired me to listen to them all again in the coming days, so thanks for that o-[][]-o


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## Jonathan Moray (Oct 21, 2014)

adriancook @ Tue Oct 21 said:


> Jonathan Moray @ Tue Oct 21 said:
> 
> 
> > @adriancook I'm not sure if you're joking, but Shostakovich died in 1975...
> ...



Whoa there big guy. You don't have to get all alpha on me. You asked if Shostakovich was a member here... Which I'm pretty sure he isn't, since he's been *dead* before Vi-Control was created. Or am I missing the whole point of your comment? Then please clarify it for me instead of acting like a spoiled brat. I guess what you're trying to say is that Shostakovich is not a member here thus this should not be posted under "Member's Compositions" since it actually Shostakovich's work and not brunodegazio's.

Is that what you're trying to say?


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## rayinstirling (Oct 21, 2014)

Jonathan,
I think Adrian got out of the wrong side of the bed today. His comment did go flashing by your head but hey! that's okay. Dry humour often gets me in trouble.

Oh! and I better mention the synthy sound of the high strings just as an annoyance.
A little eq job will help.

Ray


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## AC986 (Oct 21, 2014)

*Would you [email protected]%%kin' believe it!! Shostakovich is dead!*



Jonathan Moray @ Tue Oct 21 said:


> @adriancook I'm not sure if you're joking, but Shostakovich died in 1975...



Whoa! Seriously? Get away?? Shit! I wondered why he'd been so quiet lately. And here was silly old me waiting for the last 40 years for another Jazz Suite and not understanding why.

Just goes to show!


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## Jonathan Moray (Oct 21, 2014)

Well sarcasm is pretty hard to pick up up on the internet and I myself wasn't completely serious. I just tried to be friendly. I tought that either he would shrug it off and laugh or he would get enlighten by this amazing piece of information.

Because how am I supposed to know how much he knows about these old composers. I personally knows next to nothing about them.


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## Stephen Rees (Oct 21, 2014)

Don't worry Jonathan. I expect Adrian's been asked to write some Bernard Herrmannesque music by one of his library gigs again. He hates that.

Agree with Ray that the high strings (especially at the beginning) sounded rather synthetic. I thought the rest of the mockup was very credible though.


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## AC986 (Oct 21, 2014)

Jonathan Moray @ Tue Oct 21 said:


> Well sarcasm is pretty hard to pick up up on the internet and I myself wasn't completely serious. I just tried to be friendly. I tought that either he would shrug it off and laugh or he would get enlighten by this amazing piece of information.
> 
> Because how am I supposed to know how much he knows about these old composers. I personally knows next to nothing about them.



Actually I know very little. And yes, grumpy old me just got grumpier via Stephen's astute post.

That said I don't like classical mock ups. Just a person thing, unless they are supposed to illustrate something. They don't illustrate anything that I can hear or see.


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## Daryl (Oct 21, 2014)

adriancook @ Tue Oct 21 said:


> That said I don't like classical mock ups. Just a person thing, unless they are supposed to illustrate something. They don't illustrate anything that I can hear or see.


On the contrary, they illustrate just how bad sample libraries are, when compared with the real thing. Or how bad sample based composers are at sequencing music that isn't designed to be covered with explosions. Or both. :lol: 

Having said that, sequencing other peoples music is a very good test of sequencing skills, because you can't take the easy way out and write to the library, so these attempts can be very good for improving ones own ability.

D


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## Stephen Rees (Oct 21, 2014)

adriancook @ Tue Oct 21 said:


> And yes, grumpy old me just got grumpier via Stephen's astute post.



Ah. Sorry about that.

Agree with Daryl re: doing mockups of pre-existing music with samples. I find hearing other people's attempts very illuminating, and find doing them myself very educational.


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## José Herring (Oct 21, 2014)

I personally would love it if you posted the midi file. I'd like to see if any library could actually handle it.

As far as this some of the high violins can sound convincing at times it's the lower ones that seem to be having a hard time of it getting organ like at times.


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## rayinstirling (Oct 21, 2014)

josejherring @ Tue Oct 21 said:


> I personally would love it if you posted the midi file. I'd like to see if any library could actually handle it.



"the midi file". That's the problem with comparing libraries. No two libraries can ever be matched or compared on the strength of a midi file. I, for business and lately solely for pleasure have produced many mockups over the years. If I ever start with a midi file it can be no more than a guide and is quickly bastardized and any midi file I produce from scratch will be based on a particular performance of a piece using the libraries I have and therefore of little use to anyone wishing to try other libraries unless they to make major alterations to suit these libraries.

Matching volume levels alone is a nightmare. It didn't happen with General Midi and it never will with any present or future library.


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## José Herring (Oct 21, 2014)

rayinstirling @ Tue Oct 21 said:


> josejherring @ Tue Oct 21 said:
> 
> 
> > I personally would love it if you posted the midi file. I'd like to see if any library could actually handle it.
> ...



Dude. Give me the benefit of some professional doubt. I would work the file so that it would work with my libraries. I just don't want to go through the labor intensive process of having to input the notes from the score.

And, you're making it too complicated. Just wipe all the controller data and reinput the controller data from scratch. You may also need to nudge some notes here and there, but in all honestly for just a comparison purpose I probably wouldn't bother


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## Jaap (Oct 21, 2014)

I actually really enjoyed the sound and depth at some point.
As a big big big (did I mention big? :D) Shostakovich fan it couldn't satisfy me performance wise and proves that samples are not completely up to par yet.

But I applaude the effort and it has at some points also some great emotional feeling, which is a really good achievement.
Maybe the beginning is played a bit too strict "dramatic". It needs that loose "ironic" dramatic feeling. On the edge of being a parody, but that is a whole different chapter :D


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## Jonathan Moray (Oct 21, 2014)

@rayinstirling you're completely right: you can't compare two libraries with the exact same midi file. But if you tweak it to suit the different libraries you can get a rough estimate of which is the best for the composition.

Just gonna say that I would also like to have the midi file and take a stab at it. Although I highly doubt I can do the it as good as you or even close, but it would still be a fun exercise.


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## rayinstirling (Oct 21, 2014)

josejherring @ Tue Oct 21 said:


> Dude. Give me the benefit of some professional doubt. I would work the file so that it would work with my libraries. I just don't want to go through the labor intensive process of having to input the notes from the score.
> 
> And, you're making it too complicated. Just wipe all the controller data and reinput the controller data from scratch. You may also need to nudge some notes here and there, but in all honestly for just a comparison purpose I probably wouldn't bother



Sorry if my point seemed personal to you, it wasn't. It was a general observation from being around here a while and quite frankly..........is the comparison worth the bother?


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## José Herring (Oct 21, 2014)

rayinstirling @ Tue Oct 21 said:


> josejherring @ Tue Oct 21 said:
> 
> 
> > Dude. Give me the benefit of some professional doubt. I would work the file so that it would work with my libraries. I just don't want to go through the labor intensive process of having to input the notes from the score.
> ...



Purely from a selfish standpoint. Coming from a concert background, I've had to change the way I write music in order for it to work well with samples. Now, the libraries and my skill are getting to the point that I can write the music I want to write. If I could find a way to pull this off, I would have no more excuses and I could feel fully confidant that I could do what I need to get done with samples.


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## rayinstirling (Oct 21, 2014)

I hear what you're saying and it must be the way forward.
My concert experiences these days are through subs for the Berlin Philharmonic Digital Concert Hall.


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## brunodegazio (Oct 21, 2014)

Here's a revised version of the the Shostakovitch Largo.

I've changed the programming by adding a lot more "bowing." Those long pp notes held steady were killing the phrasing in the earlier version, and it was hard to ease them out because of the limited dynamic resolution. The problem comes about because when playing pp there is very little working range for the dynamics controller (cc1 in this case ) The entire range used is between about 0 and 20. To get more sweep in the phrasing I've added another layer of dynamics using cc11. 

I tamed a few notes in the violas and cellos that were giving a strange buzzing when held steady too long. Easing them out smoothly with cc11 took the curse off them. 

There are also some minor changes to instrumental balance and tempo.




[flash width=720 height=110 loop=false]http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F173151843&secret_url=false[/flash]


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## brunodegazio (Oct 21, 2014)

A couple of people expressed interest in seeing the MIDI file to the Shostakovitch, so here it is: 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3767884/ShostakovitchLargo-Coda.mid (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/376 ... o-Coda.mid)

The strings in this piece are a bit unusual. They're all divisi (except for the basses), and the violins (firsts and seconds) are split into three equal groups which Shos. calls Violins 1, 2 and 3.

The patches used are all the BST Adaptive Legato patches (with small exceptions for the Violin tremolo at the end, and the almost-inaudible Viola pizz.) , pretty much as supplied from the factory, except that I set the the dynamic range (CC1) dial to '50'. I also used cc67 for sordino controller, and cc3 for choosing the type of vibrato. 

Of course all that is of interest only if you're trying to use my controller programming. 
josejherring, I think you have a better idea to just wipe the controllers clean and re-program them. I'd be interested to hear what another person&library can do with this. 

As someone posted above, this is very difficult sort of piece to sequence because everything is so exposed. Also, some libraries do not do 'quiet' very well. It's especially hard to pull off three and half minutes of it, at a very slow tempo (qtr=40.)

jaap, I'm intrigued by what you said about the opening being too dramatic, and needing an ironic touch. Would you elaborate?


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## Jaap (Oct 21, 2014)

brunodegazio @ Tue Oct 21 said:


> jaap, I'm intrigued by what you said about the opening being too dramatic, and needing an ironic touch. Would you elaborate?



This is more about how the music is interpreted and about the background of the composition itself.
As you maybe know, Shostakovich had a hard time under Stalin. His fourth symphony was considered as too modern and he was labeled as formalist, meaning, influenced by the Western society. However Shostakovich played a smart game during his life, constantly balancing on the edge of pleasing the USSR party (and Stalin) and expressing himself as artist.

His 5th Symphony was a sort of "comeback". He wrote exactly what Stalin and communist party wanted to hear. A "big" symphony, full of drama expressing the soul of the USSR.
However this is only the outside (as often with works of him). Often he does things "over the top", making it almost ridiculous. Just a shallow outside shell, but inside the composition he composes his real music.
I had the real pleasure once of having a masterclass with Boris Tisjenko, who has been a student of him and he told that the 5th Symphony has the outside of the USSR and the inside of a true Russian. With that he wanted to express that the music by itself is big, grand, dramatic, proud (like the finale), but it is how the USSR wants to see and present itself.
However all the small nuances, the mocking of the big grand finale, the over the top drama expressed in the piece you did the mockup from, show the true Russian. Giving critic in a subtle way, in such a way that it cannot be proven that you "betray" the USSR or that you are openly critical (which could result in labor camp for you and your family there).

This is a bit a background of how he wrote and about this piece. Just before he wrote it, Shostakovich was almost deported to a work camp actually. In this piece he did not wanted to show how good the USSR was, but express his inner fear and struggle in such a way that people who really good listened, could hear it, but would not expose him as a critic.

A good conductor will keep this in mind when performing the piece. To not take the piece to literally, but to "adjust" a few things to make it "uncomfortable" like playing the dramatic parts a bit too quick/slow and play the grand finale like it the finale of weird big epic comedy.

Edit: I have not listened yet to your revision, will do that tomorrow (tired ears and mind  )


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## Carles (Oct 21, 2014)

In this performance, the presenter is briefly talking about Jaap's comment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeJPmIbiqp4


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## TGV (Oct 21, 2014)

brunodegazio @ Tue Oct 21 said:


> Here's a revised version of the the Shostakovitch Largo.


The sound is better. There are still a few exposed moments that are odd, sometimes not all sections seem to play at the same beat, and the glissandi are too long and too loud, but most of the sound and performance is really convincing. Well done.


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## José Herring (Oct 22, 2014)

Did a quicky version with LASS-LS. Can't spend more than an hour on it.

Have a listen and discuss. I find these library comparisons pretty illuminating. 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5R9OghYcycsdlFxTW1ycU9JcTA/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5R9Og ... sp=sharing)

edit: One thing I should mention is that LASS-LS doesn't go up to the highest "D" so I had to change one of the high vln notes.


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## Stephen Rees (Oct 22, 2014)

@Jose: Liked the overall sound world and tone of yours Jose. Just more portamento here and there than I would have liked. But subjectively overall sound wise I found it very pleasing.

@Bruno Re: Your new version Bruno. Found the high strings much more pleasing in your new version. I certainly wouldn't expect samples to deliver a performance any better than this. You did a beautiful job with it. The last chord almost brings a tear to the eye - so you captured the emotional spirit of the music for me - what more could one ask than that?


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## Rob (Oct 22, 2014)

brunodegazio @ 21st October 2014 said:


> Here's a revised version of the the Shostakovitch Largo.
> 
> I've changed the programming by adding a lot more "bowing." Those long pp notes held steady were killing the phrasing in the earlier version, and it was hard to ease them out because of the limited dynamic resolution. The problem comes about because when playing pp there is very little working range for the dynamics controller (cc1 in this case ) The entire range used is between about 0 and 20. To get more sweep in the phrasing I've added another layer of dynamics using cc11.
> 
> ...



I like this version a lot...
and thanks for sharing the midi


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## rayinstirling (Oct 22, 2014)

Bruno,

I'm wondering if you used a performance of the excerpt as a guide to mixing this.
The only copy I have is of the New York Philharmonic led by Leonard Bernstein.
That recording or perhaps Mr. Bernstein's reading puts emphasis on different notes in the chords than yours.
Especially noticeable with the highest note at the end.
I'm intrigued though so I've downloaded the midi file :lol: 

Thanks for sharing

Ray


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## José Herring (Oct 22, 2014)

Bruno the latest vers. Is very good. Proves that it's not really the library choice but rather the care in which you program a convicing performance. Thanks for sharing.


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## brunodegazio (Oct 23, 2014)

Jaap, thanks for the explanation. I knew vaguely about Shostakovitch's political problems at the time, but your description bought it home for me. That said, the film-maker on this project might not have appreciated an ironic touch, I think he is after the straight-forward emotion that the music presents. 

Ray: no, I didn't use any particular recording as a guide. My director had one that he played for me - the LSO, but he didn't know who conducted. We listened through a couple of times (the coda only) but when I started recording tracks I had only the score as a guide. Which was a little misleading - for example, Shost. has the coda marked mm 50, which seemed too fast. I put it mostly between mm 40 and 50. 

Thank you everyone for your comments. A a wind-player I am fascinated and challenged by attempting to simulate the dynamics of bowing. When programming a string section, shaping a phrase like a wind player is not convincing. But just letting the recorded samples play on their own doesn't work either - too organ-like, as someone noted on this thread. The challenge is to find a shape to the phrase that brings to mind the activity of the bow. 

Also, I think there is an additional difference that comes from the multiplicity of players in a string section. The phrase dynamics are broader, slower and smoother because minor variations in the individual players tend to 'average out." At least that's my theory. 

It would be great if an orchestral string player would chime in here, esp. someone with experience in MIDI arranging and performance as well. Anyone?


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