# I am SO Disappointed !!!!!



## MeloKeyz (Oct 15, 2021)

I am so angry right now because We, the VST buyers, pay from our hard earned money to both support developers and enjoy their products. It's so unfair to know that there are couple of VST torrents sites out there that giveaway precious sample libraries for free and unfortunately it works. And they are up to date with the newest products. Give me a break! Until today, I invested on VST/Libs for over 20K and then someone else grabs all these for FREEE?! These sites must be STOPPED. 

Sorry guys for the post but I am so so upset and disappointed. I am not gonna paste these sites here to avoid rules violation so search them yourself.


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## bdr (Oct 15, 2021)

when I saw the post’s title I thought my mother had made a post about me…


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## timprebble (Oct 15, 2021)

The equally disappointing aspect is what a total waste of time it is to hunt down such things and then for the owner to DMCA them and get them removed. But if you don't they start turning up in google searches...

Also worth saying: when you BUY a plugin, sounds, presets etc you are also buying a license to use the products to legitimately create and sell your work using them. Without that license whatever work is created could be DMCA'd, which would be a fairly rapid way to terminate a career.


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## filipjonathan (Oct 15, 2021)

MeloKeyz said:


> I am so angry right now because We, the VST buyers, pay from our hard earned money to both support developers and enjoy their products. It's so unfair to know that there are couple of VST torrents sites out there that giveaway precious sample libraries for free and unfortunately it works. And they are up to date with the newest products. Give me a break! Until today, I invested on VST/Libs for over 20K and then someone else grabs all these for FREEE?! These sites must be STOPPED.
> 
> Sorry guys for the post but I am so so upset and disappointed. I am not gonna paste these sites here to avoid rules violation so search them yourself.


I mean, this has always been an issue. Here in Serbia, where I'm from, people look at me weird when I say I buy my libraries/plugins. It's a really messed up world 🤷🏻‍♂️


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## MeloKeyz (Oct 15, 2021)

timprebble said:


> The equally disappointing aspect is what a total waste of time it is to hunt down such things


I didn't hunt them down! I just found them by accident.



timprebble said:


> Without that license whatever work is created could be DMCA'd, which would be a fairly rapid way to terminate a career.


Music libraries asks if the samples are a buyout but they don't ask the proof of their purchase. How will they know if they are legitimate or pirated? I am very curious to know!


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## MeloKeyz (Oct 15, 2021)

bdr said:


> when I saw the post’s title I thought my mother had made a post about me…


but why would she be disappointed from you?


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## timprebble (Oct 15, 2021)

MeloKeyz said:


> I didn't hunt them down! I just found them by accident.



And now you know they are out there you can set up Google Alerts to find them as soon as they are posted and DMCA them! Boring waste of time but unfortunately necessary...


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## Futchibon (Oct 15, 2021)

If you're using them for commercial projects you'll likely be audited in one way or another, so it won't work.

It's interesting how these days with Netflix and Spotify etc, it's so cheap and convenient that there doesn't seem to be the need for piracy as much, at least what I hear anecdotally.

Makes me appreciate VSL's dongle system though!


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## bill5 (Oct 15, 2021)

MeloKeyz said:


> I am so angry right now because We, the VST buyers, pay from our hard earned money to both support developers and enjoy their products. It's so unfair to know that there are couple of VST torrents sites out there that giveaway precious sample libraries for free and unfortunately it works. And they are up to date with the newest products. Give me a break! Until today, I invested on VST/Libs for over 20K and then someone else grabs all these for FREEE?! These sites must be STOPPED.
> 
> Sorry guys for the post but I am so so upset and disappointed. I am not gonna paste these sites here to avoid rules violation so search them yourself.


Where have you been? Very old news. Last I heard/saw it was shifting for the better, although still not good...sites were making you pay to get into the site to download stuff vs just free and open. 

I doubt piracy will go away any time soon, but it does seem to be shrinking.


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## bill5 (Oct 15, 2021)

timprebble said:


> DMCA them


? 

"Don't Make Copies Ahole?"


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## MeloKeyz (Oct 15, 2021)

Futchibon said:


> Makes me appreciate VSL's dongle system though!


Exactly! The best way for future VST developers is to embed serial keys into iLOK or USB dongle


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## filipjonathan (Oct 15, 2021)

I mean I know a composer that openly and almost proudly talks about how ALL of their libraries are pirated. 🤦🏻‍♂️


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## Colin66 (Oct 15, 2021)

Out of interest I went and found a couple and visited them. Quite a few people complaining that when they downloaded their free VST their machine also got infected with a virus.


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## MeloKeyz (Oct 15, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Where have you been? Very old news.


Believe it or not! It's the first time to know that VST can be pirated. Last time I knew about torrents, they were movies, mp3 or even Windows that were pirated but VSTs?!!!!!!!


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## Colin66 (Oct 15, 2021)

MeloKeyz said:


> Believe it or not! It's the first time to know that VST can be pirated. Last time I knew about torrents, they were movies, mp3 or even Windows that were pirated but VSTs?!!!!!!!


It's all 1's and 0's.....


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## MeloKeyz (Oct 15, 2021)

Futchibon said:


> If you're using them for commercial projects you'll likely be audited in one way or another


But how? We have millions of composers! How can this be filtered?


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## zwhita (Oct 15, 2021)

I thought about this for a long time before committing to purchase libraries late last year and have since spent over $9000 on them. Two most important things to put me at ease were:

If I have spent money on something, the likelihood of using and appreciating that item increases exponentially. I understood this from years of buying synth hardware and making recordings with that.
The likelihood of getting continued updates, direct feedback support and better products from trusted library developers in the future is greatly increased by supporting them financially.
I also do not trust torrent websites, nor how often my ISP is monitoring my network activity. The odds of staying safe from cybercriminals are much greater by keeping out of nefarious whereabouts.

Nice click-baity thread title btw.


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## bill5 (Oct 15, 2021)

MeloKeyz said:


> Believe it or not! It's the first time to know that VST can be pirated. Last time I knew about torrents, they were movies, mp3 or even Windows that were pirated but VSTs?!!!!!!!


Why would that be any different? It's just software. So easy to copy and distribute. And as much as I hate ilok, I get the reasons for it (and Native Access etc).


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## timprebble (Oct 15, 2021)

bill5 said:


> ?
> 
> "Don't Make Copies Ahole?"


You are 100% correct, but also...








 What is a DMCA Takedown?


A "DMCA Takedown" is usually the legal notice that is sent by the infringed party to the infringing parties provide, website, host, isp, cdn etc. in e



www.dmca.com


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## MeloKeyz (Oct 15, 2021)

zwhita said:


> Nice click-baity thread title btw.


I intended to put this title to force people to come and read


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## bill5 (Oct 15, 2021)

zwhita said:


> Nice click-baity thread title btw.


lol - I'm surprised I clicked on it, as I never click on vague titles. Slow night


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## AMBi (Oct 15, 2021)

Piracy would be much less of an issue if more developers actually offered refunds, license transfers, and ways to try their products before you buy them.
The more consumer friendly a market is the less pirates you'll have.

But there hasn't been much progress towards that so I can understand why people go that route, though I personally don't.


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## MeloKeyz (Oct 15, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Why would that be any different? It's just software. So easy to copy and distribute. And as much as I hate ilok, I get the reasons for it (and Native Access etc).


Who on earth would buy an expensive software like sample libraries just to upload it for free? Does he/she wanna lose money or what? lmao


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## jcrosby (Oct 15, 2021)

bdr said:


> when I saw the post’s title I thought my mother had made a post about me…


Well... You ARE Larry David, so.....


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## MeloKeyz (Oct 15, 2021)

AMBi said:


> Piracy would be much less of an issue if more developers actually offered refunds, license transfers, and ways to try their products before you buy them.
> The more consumer friendly a market is the less pirates you'll have.
> 
> But there hasn't been much progress towards that so I can understand why people go that route, though I personally don't.


Excuse me but what's the relation between trying a product and the pirates? You will end up buying it in the end if you like it, right? And the pirates will still be there


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## AMBi (Oct 15, 2021)

MeloKeyz said:


> Excuse me but what's the relation between trying a product and the pirates? You will end up buying it in the end if you like it, right?


Not everyone's willing to try the leap of faith model to see if they like a product or not, especially considering the price of entry is usually high.


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## KEM (Oct 15, 2021)

My opinion on this subject has always been “who cares?”

And let me preface this, I’ve bought everything I own and use, I’ve never torrented any plugins or anything and if there’s something I really want or need I buy it. But I have friends who are incredible musicians that torrent everything, and if the musics great why should I care? Some of the biggest music in the world was made by kids using torrented plugins because they couldn’t even afford to buy them, and that doesn’t change anything about how I view them or their music.

Of course if you can afford the plugin or library you should buy it, it’s much easier that way, but if you don’t have a choice but to torrent because you can’t afford the it, I won’t think anything of it


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## zwhita (Oct 15, 2021)

I'm sure it's mostly about the price, hence someone will probably buy Reaper or Valhalla Room, but not something from U-He or Waves. I would think in that case the more copies a developer can potentially sell, the more likely they can keep the price low. Assuming that, higher priced software may be intentionally trying to cater to a smaller market in order to meet specific state of the art design goals to justify research and development costs.


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## bill5 (Oct 15, 2021)

MeloKeyz said:


> Who on earth would buy an expensive software like sample libraries just to upload it for free? Does he/she wanna lose money or what? lmao


? How does uploading it make them lose money? I guess people do it to "stick it to the man" or they feel they're helping their fellow poor struggling artist or whatever. Can't say for sure; you'd have to ask them.


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## bill5 (Oct 15, 2021)

AMBi said:


> Piracy would be much less of an issue if more developers actually offered refunds, license transfers, and ways to try their products before you buy them.
> The more consumer friendly a market is the less pirates you'll have.


I agree that transfers and trials make sense; refunds are trickier and probably do not. And I don't think all that would make much difference to be honest.


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## bill5 (Oct 15, 2021)

KEM said:


> My opinion on this subject has always been “who cares?”
> 
> And let me preface this, I’ve bought everything I own and use, I’ve never torrented any plugins or anything and if there’s something I really want or need I buy it. But I have friends who are incredible musicians that torrent everything, and if the musics great why should I care? Some of the biggest music in the world was made by kids using torrented plugins because they couldn’t even afford to buy them, and that doesn’t change anything about how I view them or their music.
> 
> Of course if you can afford the plugin or library you should buy it, it’s much easier that way, but if you don’t have a choice but to torrent because you can’t afford the it, I won’t think anything of it


So you're cool with people stealing stuff? Curious.

Where do you live again? 

Sorry but "I can't afford it" is a weak excuse. There are plenty of really good free or very cheap plugins out there. Nobody "needs" to steal plugins.


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## AMBi (Oct 15, 2021)

bill5 said:


> I agree that transfers and trials make sense; refunds are trickier and probably do not. And I don't think all that would make much difference to be honest.


I guess I meant more as a timed refund (ex. 14 day refund policy like Wide Blue Sound does) which can act as a trial. 

I’d definitely feel more confident buying from developers if they offered that.


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## MeloKeyz (Oct 15, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Why would that be any different? It's just software. So easy to copy and distribute. And as much as I hate ilok, I get the reasons for it (and Native Access etc).


Because when I first started out in this composing game in 2016 I had no cash and I tried to pirate them but couldn't find any at that time lol.


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## KEM (Oct 15, 2021)

bill5 said:


> So you're cool with people stealing stuff? Curious.
> 
> Where do you live again?
> 
> Sorry but "I can't afford it" is a weak excuse. There are plenty of really good free or very cheap plugins out there. Nobody "needs" to steal plugins.



It’s not hurting me lol, and you’re right, there’s a lot of great free stuff out there now and I always point people to that when I can. But take something like Omnisphere for example, it’s very expensive and it’s pretty much a must have, I know people that have torrented it because they really couldn’t afford it, and I honestly don’t blame them, and I’m sure Spectrasonics isn’t too hurt for cash just because an 18 year old kid torrented their plugin so they could start making music


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## MusiquedeReve (Oct 15, 2021)

bdr said:


> when I saw the post’s title I thought my mother had made a post about me…


Post and avatar check out


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## charlieclouser (Oct 15, 2021)

Old news. [k] boards, key-gens, and de-auth apps have been around since the dawn of software. I still remember seeing the splash screens with the SnapCase logo even in big commercial rooms in the early 1990's. 

Ain't nothin' changed except the sites are now usually hosted in Eastern European countries.


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## filipjonathan (Oct 15, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Ain't nothin' changed except the sites are now usually hosted in Eastern European countries.


Ouch 😅


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## MeloKeyz (Oct 15, 2021)

KEM said:


> and I’m sure Spectrasonics isn’t too hurt for cash just because an 18 year old kid torrented their plugin so they could start making music


What about the effort and time of making these hundreds of presets? And what about the effort and time of recording live orchestral players who get paid by hour? These libs are expensive because of that. I am not against helping poor composers as I always urge developers to offer a stripped-down versions from the bigger versions for a small fee. Like HY's essentials of Forzo, Novo and Vento.


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## filipjonathan (Oct 15, 2021)

MeloKeyz said:


> What about the effort and time of making these hundreds of presets? And what about the effort and time of recording live orchestral players who get paid by hour? These libs are expensive because of that. I am not against helping poor composers as I always urge developers to offer a stripped-down versions from the bigger versions for a small fee. Like HY's essentials of Forzo, Novo and Vento.


But you, yourself said you tried pirating software when you were young. I don't get why you're surprised that people do it now.


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## MeloKeyz (Oct 15, 2021)

filipjonathan said:


> But you, yourself said you tried pirating software when you were young. I don't get why you're surprised that people do it now.


Because I paid for them already?


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## Gingerbread (Oct 15, 2021)

MeloKeyz said:


> Because I paid for them already?


Lol!


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## MeloKeyz (Oct 15, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Old news. [k] boards, key-gens, and de-auth apps have been around since the dawn of software. I still remember seeing the splash screens with the SnapCase logo even in big commercial rooms in the early 1990's.
> 
> Ain't nothin' changed except the sites are now usually hosted in Eastern European countries.


Charlie! Can I take a picture with you?


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## bill5 (Oct 15, 2021)

KEM said:


> take something like Omnisphere for example, it’s very expensive and it’s a must have,


Hardly. No plugin is a "must have." And again being unable to afford it therefore it's OK to steal is IMO lame and rather obvious BS. I guess people spin things however it makes it easier for them to sleep at night.

Being 18 also doesn't matter. Perhaps Joe Pirate Teenybopper should focus on getting a job or an education first vs having delusions of being the next Justin Beiber or Billy Eilish, or whatever.


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## KEM (Oct 15, 2021)

MeloKeyz said:


> What about the effort and time of making these hundreds of presets? And what about the effort and time of recording live orchestral players who get paid by hour? These libs are expensive because of that. I am not against helping poor composers as I always urge developers to offer a stripped-down versions from the bigger versions for a small fee. Like HY's essentials of Forzo, Novo and Vento.



I understand that point of view and I totally get it, I’m just saying that it doesn’t hurt ME specifically, I buy everything but I personally just don’t really pay any thought to people who torrent


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## KEM (Oct 15, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Hardly. No plugin is a "must have." And again being unable to afford it therefore it's OK to steal is IMO lame and rather obvious BS. I guess people spin things however it makes it easier for them to sleep at night.
> 
> Being 18 also doesn't matter. Perhaps Joe Pirate Teenybopper should focus on getting a job or an education first vs having delusions of being the next Justin Beiber or Billy Eilish, or whatever.



Of course, I’m really just playing devils advocate here, like I said I really just don’t care if people torrent, doesn’t do me any good to dwell on things I can’t control


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## filipjonathan (Oct 15, 2021)

Wait, OP, I don't get it. The title of this thread is "I am SO disappointed!!!!" Are you actually disappointed that you couldn't find any pirated vsts and people these days can???? 😂


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## MeloKeyz (Oct 15, 2021)

Another disadvantage of torrenting besides the risk of viruses and getting your career destroyed, I think they won't benefit from NKS if they have kontrol as they don't have serial keys to register in native access.


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## MeloKeyz (Oct 15, 2021)

filipjonathan said:


> Wait, OP, I don't get it. The title of this thread is "I am SO disappointed!!!!" Are you actually disappointed that you couldn't find any pirated vsts and people these days can???? 😂


Not really man! because I know I am even safer than them


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## Nico5 (Oct 15, 2021)

Piracy isn't exactly new, but then again ...







courtesy of: https://xkcd.com/1053/


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## musicmaker9000 (Oct 15, 2021)

This is what happens when you pirate (and upload youtube videos showing you own a pirated version )


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## MeloKeyz (Oct 15, 2021)

Just captured this discussion too https://www.quora.com/Do-famous-music-producers-use-pirated-software-and-plugins


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## halfwalk (Oct 15, 2021)

Sometimes paying customers use pirated versions to circumvent copy protection systems that do nothing but inconvenience the paying customers (Native Access, iLok, etc).

Sometimes pirates end up becoming paying customers for one reason or another. 

Sometimes people who pirate stuff would never have been paying customers anyway. The people who are going to pirate are going to pirate. When you think about GAS and the idea of constantly chasing new gear (and maybe never actually learning/using what you've got), that applies to pirates too. People hoard drives and drives full of moves they don't watch, games they don't play, samples they don't compose with; it's just how some people get that dopamine or whatever. Collecting, completionism, etc. And there's the sense of keeping the (pirating) community afloat by sharing. Whatever, it is what it is.

Likewise, the people who want to pay are going to pay. Just look at the thread here where people share how they've dropped 4 (or 5 figures) on plugins and samples in just this past year. Hell, you have the GAS folks who drop a couple hundred on a library and after six months they've forgotten they even own it. Same sort of thing, dopamine, completionism, supporting the community/industry, whatever.

If someone pirates your sample library, you haven't lost money. The musicians you hired don't lose money. The pirate isn't taking money out of your wallet. I think it's fallacious to equate an illegal download to a lost sale. It's not like stealing a physical good that the seller has to then replace.

I think the best form of "copy protection" is being a developer people feel good about supporting. Ironically, for me anyway, something like iLok (whose purpose is to prevent piracy) actually prevents me from even considering the product in the first place. I'd rather support a developer that cares about my user experience and trusts me as a person.

But also consider this: without piracy, there would be less incentive for companies like PACE (iLok) to even exist in the first place. Same with other forms of DRM and copy protection technology. Piracy sort of facilitates an arms race between the crackers and the developers. And as we know from history, competition/rivalry is a _huge_ driver of innovation.

And I suspect paid VPN services would be far less popular as well (and thus the dedicated servers they lease/rent wouldn't be as in demand). P2P technology like Bittorrent wouldn't be as popular, and might not have led to some of the leaps we've had in content distribution and internet infrastructure. The penniless youth would have less incentive to learn all this networking/coding stuff (you have to admit, reverse engineering today's software can't exactly be a walk in the park, and neither is creating a website that can handle large scale traffic and distribution/categorization/curation of torrent files). A few of these people might go on to find lucrative careers in white-hat hacking or cyber security as a result of the skills they've learned cracking plugins or circumventing DRM (or even writing malware). In that sense, piracy is in a way actually helping creating jobs and further advances in technology, as well as giving people something to do. 

I'm not trying to defend piracy, but really trying to offer a perspective that the whole subject is potentially a bit more nuanced than "Piracy bad!!1!" Because in a way, piracy is good for some people too... just generally not for the small-time developer or the paying customer. Still, it's interesting to think about, and there are also some parallels to the actual high seas piracy of history.


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## marclawsonmusic (Oct 15, 2021)

halfwalk said:


> Sometimes paying customers use pirated versions to circumvent copy protection systems that do nothing but inconvenience the paying customers (Native Access, iLok, etc).


Bullshit.



halfwalk said:


> Sometimes pirates end up becoming paying customers for one reason or another.


Bullshit.



halfwalk said:


> If someone pirates your sample library, *you haven't lost money*. The musicians you hired don't lose money. The pirate isn't taking money out of your wallet. *I think it's fallacious to equate an illegal download to a lost sale.* It's not like stealing a physical good that the seller has to then replace.


 You clearly have no idea how business works. Recording a sample library costs a lot of money (and time).



halfwalk said:


> I think the best form of "copy protection" is being a developer people feel good about supporting. Ironically, for me anyway, something like iLok (whose purpose is to prevent piracy) actually prevents me from even considering the product in the first place. I'd rather support a developer that cares about my user experience and *trusts me as a person*.


 "Trusts me as a person"... you think _any _company feels like this... towards anyone?!?



halfwalk said:


> I'm not trying to defend piracy...


Yes you are.



halfwalk said:


> ... but really trying to offer a perspective that the whole subject is potentially a bit more nuanced than "Piracy bad!!1!" Because in a way, *piracy is good for some people too*... just generally not for the small-time developer or the paying customer. Still, it's interesting to think about, and there are also some parallels to the actual high seas piracy of history.


You are a lunatic. Please delete your account and never post here again.


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## halfwalk (Oct 15, 2021)

marclawsonmusic said:


> You are a lunatic. Please delete your account and never post here again.


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## chocobitz825 (Oct 15, 2021)

Pirating doesn’t bother me because I paid for it and someone got it for free…it bothers me because the developers lose out on the cash needed to invest further into their product line that I benefit from. We lose out on the stability of our favorite products and the potential for growth…and in worst cases, we also have to pay more because the profits never quite hit as they should because of pirating. 

When music was a hobby and I was young pirating was the temptation but as a professional it’s unacceptable.


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## musicmaker9000 (Oct 15, 2021)

halfwalk said:


> If someone pirates your sample library, you haven't lost money. The musicians you hired don't lose money. The pirate isn't taking money out of your wallet. I think it's fallacious to equate an illegal download to a lost sale. It's not like stealing a physical good that the seller has to then replace.


That's just an excuse pirates use to justify it.
Is it also okay to sneak into a concert or movie theater or bus if there's still room? They won't lose any money from it, so I guess it's okay?
No ofc not. Stealing is stealing.
Also this excuse/attitude make it acceptable in society, and leads to developers losing money, since people feel justified to steal.
I've lost count of how many times I see people in comments on youtube (on videos of a product) telling people where they can pirate the software, and always feeling entitled and justifed.
Those people are worse. 
One thing is a person who can't afford the software and pirates, but still understand what he did was wrong.
Then there's the people who feel absolutely entitled to free software and will tell everyone on youtube videos that they should just pirate it.


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## Quasar (Oct 15, 2021)

marclawsonmusic said:


> Bullshit.
> 
> 
> Bullshit.
> ...


Why the name calling? His first two points: 1) That some paying customers use pirated copies to be free of the CP, and 2) that some youthful pirates become mature paying customers are assertions that he believes to be facts, not value judgments. Are you calling "bullshit" because you don't believe that these statements are factually true? Or are you calling "bullshit" because you believe that they are true and you disapprove of the behavior? 

Seriously, your answers here give no indication of what, exactly, you believe to be bullshit.

You go on to say that he's defending piracy, yet offer no supporting argument beyond the ad hominem attack of calling him a lunatic. At any rate, two truths seem to be more than obvious:

1) Draconian CP creates downtime, recurringly locks paying customers out of using their products, employs system-slowing background processes, necessitates online connectivity, which in turn compromises workstation privacy, necessitates AV and OS updates, firewalls etc. and otherwise punishes the end users who pay for the right to use products that are "protected" by the the various schemes deployed.

2) Piracy is rampant, and by all accounts is only growing, not diminishing, which constitutes direct empirical evidence that the CP, whatever else it does, simply does not work as developers intend it to anyway. Hence the neo-Puritanical moral outrage that some people on these forums seem to enjoy so much.

Given this astonishingly abysmal and dysfunctional state of affairs, "nuanced" conversation should IMHO be encouraged, not shouted down, whether you agree with what's being said or not. Just my tuppence.


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## Nico5 (Oct 15, 2021)

Pirating also dilutes the value-proposition of having something unique. i.e.


If I'm one of 100 music makers having bought software or soundware to be used in my work, that gives me a much more unique sound or an advantageous workflow or inspiration that only 100 other people also have.
But if there's also 100 pirated copies being used, my competitive edge just got reduced.
So paying customers end up effectively subsidizing pirates. - But involuntarily.

When I really want to subsidize another music maker, I give them music gear for free or below market value, or buy their music (even if I don't listen to it) or simply gift them money.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Oct 15, 2021)

KEM said:


> I understand that point of view and I totally get it, I’m just saying that it doesn’t hurt ME specifically, I buy everything but I personally just don’t really pay any thought to people who torrent


"doesn't hurt ME"

- egoism?
At the end wrong is wrong, regardless of whether it's done to you/me or not.

Even with that odd self focus - it actually does hurt you and all of us because if developers earn less money they can invest less in new products which means lower quality products for YOU, me and everyone else.

Even Spectrasonics. Sure they earn tons of money, but of there is tons of piracy they also loose tons of money, which still means big future products might end up a bit smaller than if they had the lost revenue. Of course that only holds true for people who would actually be able to buy it, at least eventually.
But that's also a choice. Sometimes not being "able" to afford something just means lacking the willingness to do so because there is other cool stuff they want that they can't steal :D

I've been there, moved away from it and don't want anyone signing it off as tolerable.
Although one could make a case for stealing first if not possible otherwise financially = legalizing later once money comes in. But ideally sooner, rather than in 5-10 years!
It's easy to sit on torrented stuff despite having money because buying new stuff is more exciting than legalizing old stuff though, so still a dark path.


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## halfwalk (Oct 15, 2021)

Nico5 said:


> Pirating also dilutes the value-proposition of having something unique. i.e.
> 
> * If I'm one of 100 music makers having bought software or soundware to be used in my work, that gives me a much more unique sound or an advantageous workflow or inspiration that only 100 other people also have.
> * But if there's also 100 pirated copies being used, my competitive edge just got reduced.
> ...


Definitely good, interesting points!

I guess it's probably naïve of me to think one's competitive edge comes a lot more from (in no particular order) their work ethic, their industry connections, and skill/experience as a composer rather than from their choice of tools. But I guess in something like Trailer music for instance (which I really know nothing about) there's probably a higher bar demand for unique/bleeding-edge sonics.

But isn't that all the more reason to record/craft your own custom sounds, anyway? That way, _nobody_ has the sounds you have.

I've also heard plenty of music made with high-end libraries that doesn't really sound so great. Give me a Stradivarius and it'll still sound like I'm flaying a cat.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti (Oct 15, 2021)

MeloKeyz said:


> I am so angry right now because We, the VST buyers, pay from our hard earned money to both support developers and enjoy their products. It's so unfair to know that there are couple of VST torrents sites out there that giveaway precious sample libraries for free and unfortunately it works. And they are up to date with the newest products. Give me a break! Until today, I invested on VST/Libs for over 20K and then someone else grabs all these for FREEE?! These sites must be STOPPED.
> 
> Sorry guys for the post but I am so so upset and disappointed. I am not gonna paste these sites here to avoid rules violation so search them yourself.


I'm so dissapointed. Yesterday i was a virgin and today I'm not!


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## Nico5 (Oct 15, 2021)

halfwalk said:


> I guess it's probably naïve of me to think one's competitive edge comes a lot more from (in no particular order) their work ethic, their industry connections, and skill/experience as a composer rather than from their choice of tools. But I guess in something like Trailer music for instance (which I really know nothing about) there's probably a higher bar demand for unique/bleeding-edge sonics.


Agreed: Competitive edge is a combination of many things, but musical gear (hardware, software, soundware, studio location and space, etc.) are amongst them. And a good tool in idiotic hands probably produces worse results than a limited tool in great hands.

But tools can make a meaningful difference when experience, skills and connections are more similar. And probably more often than not, we don't compete with people who have either much more experience, skills and connections or much less than ourselves. So tools can become a significant distinguishing factor when all others are reasonably close.



halfwalk said:


> But isn't that all the more reason to record/craft your own custom sounds, anyway? That way, _nobody_ has the sounds you have.


If shooting for extreme and guaranteed uniqueness, definitely yes. -- But in more average working situations, you probably don't have to be totally unique - but just unique enough in the circles you work in. And in some of those cases, sounding familiar, yet "fresh" is probably more a good thing. And even with somewhat unique sounds, getting them pre-made can lead to faster speed of finishing a project - so even with sounds, better/faster workflow can provide a competitive edge.

I also assume that this is not 100% always the case. Classic elevator music comes to mind, where it seemed to be desirable that the sonic signature was pretty much the same across the board. But in that case, if every major music maker in that field uses the same sets of libraries to get to the desired sound, then those who pirate exactly those libraries could become additional competitors for making that sound, thus diluting the competitive edge for those who paid.


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## Teldex (Oct 15, 2021)

This subject is really a case of ethics. The unethical will pirate; the ethical will not.

Of course there are the pirates who may still have some vestige of conscience, and they are the ones who come up with clever arguments of justification so as to appear ethical (like the arguments the forum member ‘Halfwalk’ uses in post #52. After reading that little essay one can go away believing that the software pirates are the saviours of mankind.)


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## marclawsonmusic (Oct 15, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Probably. At least most of the time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm sorry you feel that way. 

Someone was justifying piracy and I called them out on it. The ad hominem was for someone who said 'piracy is good for some people' after saying 'I'm not defending piracy'. That's a bit crazy (but maybe it's just me?)

I have no patience for piracy or those who justify it. Ask my own kids who I have busted for torrenting games, movies, and software... Yes, the young generation does it, but it's still wrong - no matter how you justify it.

I do apologize for being harsh. I probably should have just ignored this thread.


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## william81723 (Oct 15, 2021)

filipjonathan said:


> I mean, this has always been an issue. Here in Serbia, where I'm from, people look at me weird when I say I buy my libraries/plugins. It's a really messed up world 🤷🏻‍♂️



Same in Taiwan.
I spend around 40k in my libraries and effects.
But I think what I am doing is the right thing.
God will give me more gifts in the future.


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## Markrs (Oct 15, 2021)

MeloKeyz said:


> I am so angry right now because We, the VST buyers, pay from our hard earned money to both support developers and enjoy their products. It's so unfair to know that there are couple of VST torrents sites out there that giveaway precious sample libraries for free and unfortunately it works. And they are up to date with the newest products. Give me a break! Until today, I invested on VST/Libs for over 20K and then someone else grabs all these for FREEE?! These sites must be STOPPED.
> 
> Sorry guys for the post but I am so so upset and disappointed. I am not gonna paste these sites here to avoid rules violation so search them yourself.


It is tough to find out that you can get it for free, but that has been the case with a lot of software. I knew I could get most of what I bought for free, but have still bought it.

It is a choice you make. The illegal stuff probably does work just as well and is up to date, but in the end I pay for the samples libraries I want.


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## borisb2 (Oct 15, 2021)

MeloKeyz said:


> Believe it or not! It's the first time to know that VST can be pirated. Last time I knew about torrents, they were movies, mp3 or even Windows that were pirated but VSTs?!!!!!!!


So movie downloads are ok but VST-downloads not?

I wonder how many people here can claim “I never watched a downloaded movie”


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## bill5 (Oct 15, 2021)

marclawsonmusic said:


> I'm sorry you feel that way.
> 
> Someone was justifying piracy and I called them out on it. The ad hominem was for someone who said 'piracy is good for some people' after saying 'I'm not defending piracy'. That's a bit crazy (but maybe it's just me?)
> 
> ...


Fair enough. Don't think he was defending piracy, despite the "'piracy is good for some people" statement, i.e. not the general impression I got overall, but whatever.


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## charlieclouser (Oct 15, 2021)

Piracy is why I stopped making albums.... 20 years ago.

This was long before Spotify, Pandora, or YouTube, and before even the iPod was released - but Napster had just come out, and as soon as I saw it in action I knew it was game over for the kind of big-dollar albums I had been involved in. I knew that the punters would steal anything that wasn't nailed down, and Napster lowered the barrier for theft to trivial levels. It's one thing to ask a friend to make a cassette dub or burn a CD of the latest album, but Napster and LimeWire made it too easy to just stuff your pockets at the all-you-can-eat buffet. When iTunes was announced I started packing my bags, and six months later I was outta there.

A year or so earlier, Lars Ulrich had gotten all kinds of flack from the punters for coming out against piracy of albums, but I was firmly on his side. Those albums cost a TON of money to make, and if nobody's paying for them, well... get ready to pay $300 for a concert ticket, and don't forget to pick up an $85 hoodie and $45 t-shirt at the merch table.

I actually got in an argument with some NIN fans backstage at a show because they were defending their "right" to steal albums based on their low salary at Hot Topic or whatever. I was like, "Then listen to the radio and wait for your favorite song to come on just like I did. And stay off my lawn."

How and why do you quit a multi-platinum, arena-filling band? And walk away from 15 years of making tons of cool records with all kinds of heavy bands?

It was obvious that it was gonna be game over for the record industry, at least in the form that I knew and loved. Last rat off goes down with the ship!

So I walked. June of 2001.

Four months later the first iPod was announced.


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## PaulieDC (Oct 15, 2021)

Concerts were 10 bucks in the early 80s.

So just a week ago I came across a YouTube video advertising free sample libraries and I suppose how to go about it (didn't watch it), first for me also, as far as sample libraries. Then I saw the huge amount of comments griping about it not working, viruses, etc etc and I had that same satisfied feeling when Jerry Reed got thrown out of the bar after bikers beat him up in Smokey and the Bandit, and he drove his 18-wheeler over all the bikes as he pulled out of the parking lot. Love moments like that.


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## Zedcars (Oct 15, 2021)

marclawsonmusic said:


> halfwalk said:
> 
> 
> > Sometimes pirates end up becoming paying customers for one reason or another.
> ...


No, @halfwalk ‘s point is true. When I first started out making music 25 years ago I pirated. I didn’t have a lot of money. Now I buy what I need as I can afford it, it feels good to have a clean conscious, I’m supporting the developer, I get free updates, no risk of viruses, much easier to download and I can get free support.


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## bill5 (Oct 15, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> It's one thing to ask a friend to make a cassette dub or burn a CD of the latest album, but Napster and LimeWire made it too easy to just stuff your pockets at the all-you-can-eat buffet.


So stealing one or two albums is OK, but 4 or 5 etc isn't? ?

Making cassettes of albums back when is no different then downloading them now. Just because it's easier to get more doesn't make it less ethical.


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## 3DC (Oct 15, 2021)

Back in very early days of internet, piracy was actually necessary for some companies and their products to survive.

In 3D world for example it was a public secret that the crack for major 3D software was provided by its publisher exactly 1 week before every official release. In those days piracy was used for cheap but very efficient promotion and tool to bring in future professional users into their eco system. It was somewhat understandable since the official licence for the software was way over 10.000$.

These days piracy is lame, especially in music industry. With so many really affordable solutions and payments options for high end professional products and services it actually stupid to risk your business and public image.

Its a line between total amateur and professional.


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## charlieclouser (Oct 15, 2021)

bill5 said:


> So stealing one or two albums is OK, but 4 or 5 etc isn't? ?
> 
> Making cassettes of albums back when is no different then downloading them now. Just because it's easier to get more doesn't make it less ethical.


No shit sherlock. My point is that cassette / CD burning piracy was enough of a hassle back then that it wasn't nearly as much of an issue as one-click download piracy was in the Napster era.

Nowadays, you can still listen to pretty much everything you want for free - if you're willing to sit through an ad at the beginning of a YouTube clip. Basically the same as radio.


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## FlyingAndi (Oct 15, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Piracy is why I stopped making albums.... 20 years ago.


I think this is quiet an interesting parallel. 
How can musicians who on the one hand pirate (music production) software actually expect other people to pay for their music on the other hand?


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## Zedcars (Oct 15, 2021)

FlyingAndi said:


> I think this is quiet an interesting parallel.
> How can musicians who on the one hand pirate (music production) software actually expect other people to pay for their music on the other hand?


Compartmentalisation.

Plenty of people demonstrate moral hypocrisy. Plenty of people hold opposing views simultaneously.









Kanye West caught visiting Pirate Bay—possibly to download music software


"What the f--k, Kanye ... Can't afford Serum? Dick," says software co-owner Deadmau5.




arstechnica.com


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## charlieclouser (Oct 15, 2021)

FlyingAndi said:


> I think this is quiet an interesting parallel.
> How can musicians who on the one hand pirate (music production) software actually expect other people to pay for their music on the other hand?


Exactly. Then there's the tale of Kanye, DeadMau5, and Serum.

In short, a few years back Kanye posted a photo on Twitter that showed his browser screen. Clearly visible at the top were tabs for "Xfer Records Serum" and "Pirate Bay Torrent Xfe...".






So DeadMau5, whose record label Xfer Records was the company selling Steve Duda's Serum synth plugin, called him out on it via Twitter, saying something like, "What the fuck @KanyeWest, can't afford Serum? Dick."

With the wide reach of those guys' Twitter feeds, a lot of folks who didn't previously know about Serum flooded the Xfer Records site (no doubt also flooding the Pirate sites) and Steve later told me that sales went through the roof.

So that's sort of the inverse-inception of "piracy creates customers" argument - more like, "seeing some douche get called out for piracy creates customers".


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## Markrs (Oct 16, 2021)

Avicii (R.I.P) was caught using pirated Sylenth, as have others.








Avicii, Martin Garrix, and Others Have Used Pirated Software | Your EDM


Many of the world's biggest DJs including Avicii, Garrix, Aoki, and Savant have been caught using pirated plugins while making millions of dollars.



www.youredm.com





You have to decide where your moral compass is. Anyone of us could pirate quite easily and for some they find it so easy they pirate even when they own the plugin or library (Benn Jordan on YouTube recently admitted that he gets Pirated versions of plugins and sample libraries he owns because they are actually easy to get working with rather than the legal versions).

I don't pirate for all the reason others have mentioned. I even have YouTube premium, so YouTubers get money when I watch videos. Furthermore, I also use Patreon to support those I watch as well. This isn't to virtue signal (well I hope not, and certainly not the intent), it is just to show even when the content is free, I want to support creators.


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## zedmaster (Oct 16, 2021)

I made a video on this exact matter a while ago, explaining why I don't pirate libraries (and think you shouldn't either). It was quite controversial in the community apparently, so I guess there are a lot of reasons people find *for* it as well.


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## lux (Oct 16, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> No shit sherlock. My point is that cassette / CD burning piracy was enough of a hassle back then that it wasn't nearly as much of an issue as one-click download piracy was in the Napster era.
> 
> Nowadays, you can still listen to pretty much everything you want for free - if you're willing to sit through an ad at the beginning of a YouTube clip. Basically the same as radio.


this. I would also add that the old cassette thing kept intact album concepts, listening experiences and messages contributing actively to the golden age of popular music. It took time and effort, moving from house, multiple physical purchases and so on.

Nothing comparable with one click meaning "hey Spotify gimme my usual shit you'd decide I will like and that I'm not caring about while I do everything but listening what you push in my in ear phones". Which is basically the end of all music concepts you may even think pulling out of your talent, as it will never really touch base with the average listener.


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## el-bo (Oct 16, 2021)

marclawsonmusic said:


> Bullshit.
> 
> 
> Bullshit.
> ...


Just because you are unaware of something doesn’t make it bullshit.

I’ve heard many accounts of legit license owners using cracked software die to draconian copy-protection spoiling the user-experience. 

There are also countless accounts, spread over many forums (whether gaming, music-production etc) of people using cracks when disposable income was much more limited, then going legit when money was around. I’m one of those people. In fact even when I had multiple drives full of pirated software (over a decade ago), I was still buying software when finances allowed. And I ended up buying most of the stuff that I had used and enjoyed. The rest I just deleted. 

The irony is I ended up buying far mare stuff for having been exposed to it all, than if I could only have used what I could initially afford. Same with music: All those albums from friends that I copied to cassette eventually resulted in me being exposed to more artists, but that I’d eventually end up buying all of that stuff, often multiple times (upgrading media formats etc.).


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## lgmcben (Oct 16, 2021)

MeloKeyz said:


> I am so angry right now because We, the VST buyers, pay from our hard earned money to both support developers and enjoy their products. It's so unfair to know that there are couple of VST torrents sites out there that giveaway precious sample libraries for free and unfortunately it works. And they are up to date with the newest products. Give me a break! Until today, I invested on VST/Libs for over 20K and then someone else grabs all these for FREEE?! These sites must be STOPPED.
> 
> Sorry guys for the post but I am so so upset and disappointed. I am not gonna paste these sites here to avoid rules violation so search them yourself.


Now we have no choice but to buy more to compensate!


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## StefanoM (Oct 16, 2021)

I can understand your disappointment as "User", and it's correct. Think an independent developer like me how pissed he can be ( so that works HARD to create a top-quality product, but without the significant resources of a major company)
. After working every day, for one year or more, on a library, and see it five days after the launch, on all torrent sites in the world. Libraries typically offer a lot of things and cost little. Think how pissed off I am. And I can't do anything.

EDIT

There is one thing that I can do. Usually I offer, Update! Free update or major update, and these usually are missed by piracy for many time.


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## el-bo (Oct 16, 2021)

musicmaker9000 said:


> That's just an excuse pirates use to justify it.


Is it? Do you have data to support the claim he is wrong?


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## Loerpert (Oct 16, 2021)

Honestly, I understand that when you are a 12 year old kid exploring a new hobby or if you really want to try something out before buying, this is somewhat understandable. VST's and samples are usually quite the investment. Hey, it might even help in creating new money spending VI / VST geeks! But if you have the money or you are a professional, then telling others you're proud of not paying for this stuff is beyond me.


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## el-bo (Oct 16, 2021)

Teldex said:


> This subject is really a case of ethics. The unethical will pirate; the ethical will not.
> 
> Of course there are the pirates who may still have some vestige of conscience, and they are the ones who come up with clever arguments of justification so as to appear ethical (like the arguments the forum member ‘Halfwalk’ uses in post #52. After reading that little essay one can go away believing that the software pirates are the saviours of mankind.)


Ethics are subjective. Yours are not mine and mine not yours (Various crossover points notwithstanding).


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## el-bo (Oct 16, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Piracy is why I stopped making albums.... 20 years ago.


The irony is that there will have been those who never would’ve chanced their pocket-money on yours or others’ music, but getting hooked on a pirated CD of one of your albums led them to go out and buy everything you ever released.

Not saying that’s a definite for everyone…always. But it does happen It was that way with me and for many artists).

Suffice to say, it’s nuanced.

I think that once one accepts the reality of the situation, it’s possible to get ahead of it, to an extent, and maintain some semblance of control.

It’s a shame it stopped you releasing stuff


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## Drundfunk (Oct 16, 2021)

So people are scum, they lie, cheat and even manage to justify this behaviour with some mental gymnastic? Well, that's shocking. In other groundbreaking news: Water is wet. Back to you Jeff!

Scumbags will always exist. This shouldn't make you that angry. Just pay for your stuff and be proud you are not anything like these losers. This sucks a lot more for developers and if I were one I guess I'd be fcking mad about it. The general idea of the internet is great, but the way people use it also fcking sucks (a lot). Especially the convenience it provides and that most things are only one or a few clicks away isn't necessarily a healthy thing and I honestly believe the vast majority of people are actually completely overwhelmed by it.


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## el-bo (Oct 16, 2021)

Loerpert said:


> But if you have the money or you are a professional, then telling others you're proud of not paying for this stuff is beyond me.


This is definitely a cut-off point. Aside from the aforementioned usage by someone who owns a legit license, those who are making money (especially within the industry) should be paying.


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## el-bo (Oct 16, 2021)

Drundfunk said:


> So people are scum, they lie, cheat and even manage to justify this behaviour with some mental gymnastic? Well, that's shocking. In other groundbreaking news: Water is wet. Back to you Jeff!
> 
> Scumbags will always exist. This shouldn't make you that angry. Just pay for your stuff and be proud you are not anything like these losers. This sucks a lot more for developers and if I were one I guess I'd be fcking mad about it. The general idea of the internet is great, but the way people use it also fcking sucks (a lot). Especially the convenience it provides and that most things are only one or a few clicks away isn't necessarily a healthy thing and I honestly believe the vast majority of people are actually completely overwhelmed by it.


One of my first memories of music came from my parents’ cassette copy of Tubular Bells, which they’d copied from a friend. My love for that album led me to buying 3 different versions, later in life.

But that’s beside the point. You might want to call my parents scumbags, but just be prepared to do the same to pretty much everyone you know who might’ve ever taped songs off the radio, made a compilation for a potential love-interest or who’s first viewing of E.T was via a flickering, washed-out VHS cassette.

SCUMBAGS, one and all


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## creativeforge (Oct 16, 2021)

MeloKeyz said:


> I am so angry right now because We, the VST buyers, pay from our hard earned money to both support developers and enjoy their products. It's so unfair to know that there are couple of VST torrents sites out there that giveaway precious sample libraries for free and unfortunately it works. And they are up to date with the newest products. Give me a break! Until today, I invested on VST/Libs for over 20K and then someone else grabs all these for FREEE?! These sites must be STOPPED.
> 
> Sorry guys for the post but I am so so upset and disappointed. I am not gonna paste these sites here to avoid rules violation so search them yourself.


I have been contacting library developers every time I see these online (often on YouTube! videos disguised as reviews). Especially smaller developers. They don't all have the time or energy to run after these, and many have tried and found that the thieves open another site soon enough.

At least you can work and sleep with a clear conscience. What saddens me most, is that they steal money from those deserving developers I support. A scourge. But it's the way of the world... sadly.


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## Drundfunk (Oct 16, 2021)

el-bo said:


> One of my first memories of music came from my parents’ cassette copy of Tubular Bells, which they’d copied from a friend. My love for that album led me to buying 3 different versions, later in life.
> 
> But that’s beside the point. You might want to call my parents scumbags, but just be prepared to do the same to pretty much everyone you know who might’ve ever taped songs off the radio, made a compilation for a potential love-interest or who’s first viewing of E.T was via a flickering, washed-out VHS cassette.
> 
> SCUMBAGS, one and all


You know, there is a actually huge difference between the situation you are describing and, for example, downloading entire discrographies within seconds from the internet. One takes actual effort (and friends) and many other little steps (your parents listened to this song, then talked to their friends about it, then they purchased an empty cassette etc. etc., the other just takes one search and one click. There are no friends involved, there is no conversation involved, there is nothing good involved. While you're downloading the entire discography of band A you can also download the discopgrahy of band B and C while you're at it. Just because. Hell you don't even really listen to band B and C, but why not, right?. Also, cassettes break eventually. The digital file on your computer doesn't. A copy of a copy of a copy degrades in quality per copy made. The wav-file on your computer doesn't. You can't compare analogue copies to the internet. The internet changes the parameters involved drastically.


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## borisb2 (Oct 16, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Piracy is why I stopped making albums.... 20 years ago.
> 
> This was long before Spotify, Pandora, or YouTube, and before even the iPod was released - but Napster had just come out...
> 
> It was obvious that it was gonna be game over for the record industry, at least in the form that I knew and loved. Last rat off goes down with the ship!


wow .. sounds all so familiar.  Piracy is why I stopped making albums as well ... 20 years ago, when Napster came along. Since making regular music didnt cut it anymore we were supposed to produce frog-ringtones instead .. ehm, no thanks .. I switched to visual effects ..


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## el-bo (Oct 16, 2021)

Drundfunk said:


> You know, there is a actually huge difference between the situation you are describing and, for example, downloading entire discrographies within seconds from the internet. One takes actual effort (and friends) and many other little steps (your parents listened to this song, then talked to their friends about it, then they purchased an empty cassette etc. etc., the other just takes one search and one click. There are no friends involved, there is no conversation involved, there is nothing good involved. While you're downloading the entire discography of band A you can also download the discopgrahy of band B and C while you're at it. Just because. Hell you don't even really listen to band B and C, but why not, right?. Also, cassettes break eventually. The digital file on your computer doesn't. A copy of a copy of a copy degrades in quality per copy made. The wav-file on your computer doesn't. You can't compare analogue copies to the internet. The internet changes the parameters involved drastically.


Your distinctions are arbitrary, given the very clear context of the conversation i.e that ALL piracy is theft. Your response was to call those who pirated content/media as scumbags, but now it seems the level of scumbaggery is dependent on the amount of effort or social interaction involved.

If piracy is always theft, and all pirates are scumbags, then that will apply to a large percentage of people you know and love; maybe yourself, also?

Perhaps it’s time to step out of the glass-house, or at least throw marshmallows instead


----------



## Lindon (Oct 16, 2021)

MeloKeyz said:


> Exactly! The best way for future VST developers is to embed serial keys into iLOK or USB dongle


Yes, best for the developer, but maybe not for the user... many many users HATE these dongle based solutions. So like many developers we choose not to encumber our legitimate users with them


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## davidson (Oct 16, 2021)

I remember when I was waiting to purchase damage 2, I was googling like crazy for pre-release news. Anyway, one of the results brought back a well-known pirate site, and its users were already downloading and using it, leaving comments about how great it sounded. This was *BEFORE* paying customers could even get ahold of it! That kinda sucked, both for me and more so, heavyocity.

I've spoken with a fair few devs now, and they accept that each end of the userbase spectrum, from 12yo pirates to well established composers won't pay for the products because of torrenting and NFR gifts / marketing. It's the middle-ground that keep the devs afloat, the hobbyists and prosumers with a sense of moral decency. AKA, the vast majority of us on here.


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## Lindon (Oct 16, 2021)

halfwalk said:


> If someone pirates your sample library, you haven't lost money. The musicians you hired don't lose money. The pirate isn't taking money out of your wallet. I think it's fallacious to equate an illegal download to a lost sale. It's not like stealing a physical good that the seller has to then replace.


Well this is I think wrong in intent at the very least. I, as an audio developer, invest time and money up front to make a sample library, studio time, session musicians, editing suites, programming, UI design the list goes on. I do this on the basis (projection) of sales. Let me be clear about what happens to sales when a pirated version of your software comes out, and let me also be clear this is based on 10 years of building and delivering audio software, it's not what I *think* happens it is what actually happens: On average two products that start out together in the same price point and with roughly the same features will generate roughly (within 10%) the same number of sales over time (its a curve but its pretty consistent). If product A is pirated then its sales fall to about 20% of product B, instantly and forever. See that forever bit there? The argument that pirate users will eventually buy your product is clearly wishful thinking.

So I don't literally lose money - the pirates don't come and take it off me, but I do lose revenue, and sure you can say more fool me for not accounting for the likelihood of piracy. But.. if I did account for this loss of revenue then my initial investment would have to be considerably smaller(in order to recoup my investment), products would have to be much more limited, and in the end I may decide to give up development altogether, I know a number of audio developers who have done exactly that.

So when another poster here says "pirating doesn't affect me" - they are wrong too, pirating software reduces the pool of money that can be spent on software development and influences the final price point of that software. So this limits YOUR choices and make those choices more expensive. 

Pirating software affects everyone not only developers, but legitimate software users too.


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## thesteelydane (Oct 16, 2021)

halfwalk said:


> If someone pirates your sample library, you haven't lost money.


Maybe, but imagine if that mindset spreads. Imagine what happens to small developers if more and more people start to think like that?

It hurts the developer but in a roundabout way it also hurts the pirate - its an entitlement mindset - “I can’t afford this, but I still deserve to have it”. No you don’t, and you‘re not gonna get far in life with that mindset.


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## Drundfunk (Oct 16, 2021)

el-bo said:


> Your distinctions are arbitrary, given the very clear context of the conversation i.e that ALL piracy is theft. Your response was to call those who pirated content/media as scumbags, but now it seems the level of scumbaggery is dependent on the amount of effort or social interaction involved.
> 
> If piracy is always theft, and all pirates are scumbags, then that will apply to a large percentage of people you know and love; maybe yourself, also?
> 
> Perhaps it’s time to step out of the glass-house, or at least throw marshmallows instead


Wrong. The context of the conversation is actually piracy of sample libraries. You brought up the copy of an album or song your parents made. I simply pointed out why you can't necessarily compare those analogue copies people made back in the day to digital copies distributed via the internet. Yes, all piracy is theft. I never said it wasn't. I just highlighted how the internet changes the scale and therfore the parameters involved and therefore hits the industries in question on a completely different level. The distinction isn't arbitrary at all. It's the difference between Charlie producing albums and not producing albums for example. I can only explain it to you, I can't understand it for you.


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## topaz (Oct 16, 2021)

I will try and reply from centre ground.

It's always and will always be an issue with a large % of software.

Developers can really only hope that a % of those will end up buying their software like I am sure 
many of us have.


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## Werty (Oct 16, 2021)

Big part of the problem is the musicians themselves, allowing their music to be on spotify for free. And if you tell them this is nuts, they tell you that it's better to be part of the "list" (on spotify) than being off the list, and if you work hard you will succeed...
This attitude needs to change, in the 90s a cd was too pricy, but now all for free? It makes no sense. Bandcamp is a solution, you avoid middlemen, and you decide the price.


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## charlieclouser (Oct 16, 2021)

el-bo said:


> It’s a shame it stopped you releasing stuff


Oh, I never stopped releasing stuff. I just left the business of making records and being in a band.

I still release most of my film scores (and even some tv series scores) as albums on Lakeshore Records, and most of them are on all the usual streaming platforms. As you can expect, they generate cell-phone-bill money, not house-buying money. So close to zero that this revenue stream represents a rounding error in the big picture.

But in the second phase of my career (film + tv scoring) I've written and released 10x the music that I did in the first phase (making records). And the financial security is better as well, which is nice. But 75% of that security comes from performance royalties via BMI, and only about 25% from up-front fees. Maybe 2% from album sales and streaming of my scores. And only about 2% from royalties and points on albums from back in the day. Hardly worth the paperwork.

A wall full of platinum albums looks great but you can't eat them.

Anyway, I was always happier in the studio than on the road. And when the business model of making records no longer supported months of lockout at the big rooms, with tons of assistants, runners, and rentals, it wasn't nearly as attractive.

A good friend who used to bill $1k per day for doing vocal tuning and drum quantizing in the pre-AutoTune, pre-Beat Detective era would stay booked a year ahead of time, and gross an easy $300k per year, with an average album project paying him $30k for a month's work. These were albums with budgets from $500k up. Just him and a 20-space rack of ProTools gear, a Nord Lead for pitch reference, and an Eventide H-3000. Lunches, dinners, and cartage were on the band. He was all over the charts in the nineties, with a handful of producers that used him on every album they did. It was routine.

The last album he worked on before he left LA about 15 years ago was done for a total budget of $35k all-in. That included recording, editing, tuning, timing, and mixing. And this wasn't some laptop loops production, this was a "normal" metal record, with recordings of drums, bass, guitars, and vocals. His cut was about $5k for the same month of work that he'd always done. So he bailed. He still does that kind of work, though it's now done remotely, but the money is still that same $5k and it's not going back up to $30k any time soon. But he tells me that with AutoTune and Beat Detective he can do in ten days what used to take him a month with the H-3000 and manual drum editing, so that's something. But many of his former producer clients are recording in guest houses instead of months-long lockouts at the big rooms. It is what it is.

Maybe it wasn't entirely piracy and Napster that scuttled the old way of doing big-money album business, but those factors sure didn't help.

So I looked at what type of making music was less subject to the same level of catastrophic reduction of budgets and gutting of royalty streams - and that led me back to the world of scoring that I had dabbled in at the very start of my career.

So here I am. And that's that.

"But in the end, I wound up right back where I started. I could still pick winners, and I could still make money for all kinds of people back home. And why mess up a good thing? And that’s that."


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## Jerry Growl (Oct 16, 2021)

​















The concept of 'try-before buy' software piracy as accessible benefit for starting users is a highly overestimated scam too. Piracy software to me is like burying a start-up carpenter with 2000 sorts of hammers, nails (since we have been mentioning them), and screwdrivers hoping he/she/they will as a result be able to build a descent house. The abundance of piracy software makes work choices fluid and excessive that it works counter-productive. Some thoughts:

Why would you need 200 fancy compressors if you don't even understand how a simple onboard (in your DAW) compressor can or should be used?

Why would you need 2TB of sample libraries when you can't even build an original great-sounding track with just an acoustic guitar and a cardboard box? In fact the greatest music in history was conceived using nothing more than a pencil.

What are people thinking they need to work with so badly? It's just easy pleasing greed, that's all.

Learning to get the most out of what you have is how you develop and become creative, right? And what you paid for and worked hard for will make you want to get the most out of it. (More xp points)

Sadly but yes, music mass piracy/peersharing/streaming on platforms has totally devalued the appraisal of quality music.


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## 3DC (Oct 16, 2021)

Jerry Growl said:


> The concept of 'try-before buy' software piracy as accessible benefit for starting users is a highly overestimated scam too.


I think most pirated software is used for learning purposes anyway. I would guess 80% for learning and maybe 20% for professional work - in music industry the percentage might be a bit higher. 

Once you go pro however they kindly remind you to buy a licence. Image Line is one such company who understands this very well and frankly uses it very efficiently to generate sales from pirated software. 

FL Studio is actually "All Plugins Edition" trial with only one limitation: You can't reopen saved projects. Sooner or later you will have a technical problem to fix and in the case of Image-Line you need a valid licence to fix it. 

In 3D industry they stop fighting piracy years ago with "indie" licences. For example Autodesk Maya is only 350EUR if you don't make more then 50.000 EUR per year. 

All I am saying is you can fight piracy with legal action or you can be smart and take advantage of piracy. Those companies that do this have very good profit. 

Pirating music and other creative work is of course very damaging but the original sin is done by greedy labels and studios not the end users.


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## chocobitz825 (Oct 16, 2021)

Funny….in retrospect, when I decided to buy everything I would use professionally the first thing I did was get rid of all the pirated software because the pirated versions were often unstable or problematic because of not being up-to-date versions. Pirated software was a drag on the stability of my system. Then when I started buying all my software, I developed a more discerning eye. I never ended up going back to them.

Pirating, I suspect is bad for your development as a creator. You settle with what you can find, in the version available, instead of focus your time and money on the things you want. The things that will inspire you to grow and develop your own style.

I see no major benefit in pirating. Everything I did with pirated software I could have done just as well or better with stock plugins. Instead, I was just falling for GAS and stealing marketing that makes any of that software seem like "must-have gear"


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## MeloKeyz (Oct 16, 2021)

borisb2 said:


> So movie downloads are ok but VST-downloads not?
> 
> I wonder how many people here can claim “I never watched a downloaded movie”


I was talking in general that the most popular contents that were pirated the most in the history of torrenting are movies and games because they didn't require a serial key to watch a movie or play a game. For Windows, serial keys were cracked everywhere and MS lost that battle long time ago and still losing it today with thousands of cracked Windows 10. 

However, I noticed that VSTs was the only content that is hard to crack. Serial keys were not easy to find and were not awfully distributed and torrented like Windows keys. In other words, you can download a library but you can't activate it and it will work in a Demo mode. I didn't succeed at all in pirating VSTs so I had to purchase them to create music. And since then, I loved the idea of buying legally and supporting developers at the same time. I was a web developer and I understand the effort that is invested in a product. 

So yeah, I wasn't an angel when I started out.


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## Jerry Growl (Oct 16, 2021)

borisb2 said:


> So movie downloads are ok but VST-downloads not?
> 
> I wonder how many people here can claim “I never watched a downloaded movie”


euh, yea. Just the one time. I really hated the sound compression soooo badly...it was unbearable , how can people live with that kind of sound compression??? It's a nightmare! I never understood this. How can you enjoy a movie like that? 

When I heard background crickets louder than the sync speach I threw my headphones and pressed delete. Never again... what morons can live like that?


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## Technostica (Oct 16, 2021)

Jerry Growl said:


> euh, yea. Just the one time. I really hated the sound compression soooo badly...it was unbearable , how can people live with that kind of sound compression??? It's a nightmare! I never understood this. How can you enjoy a movie like that?


Pirated videos are shared by people with varying degree of skill.
So some will be well done and some won't.
Coming to any conclusion based on a data set of one is 'illogical captain'. 

I haven't downloaded pirated video for over 20 years, but the audio wasn't generally an issue back then and I'm fussy.


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## MeloKeyz (Oct 16, 2021)

FlyingAndi said:


> I think this is quiet an interesting parallel.
> How can musicians who on the one hand pirate (music production) software actually expect other people to pay for their music on the other hand?


If the music is excellent, they will pay. Plus, how will the audience know that the music production was pirated?


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## dcoscina (Oct 16, 2021)

At first I thought this was a joke post. But it seems that the OP was trying to raise awareness that these sites exist. I never used pirated software. In the earlier days (90s), Atari used a dongle for Notator 3.1. Before that, the only thing I could afford as a broke uni student was Steinberg 12 which I used with a Roland U20 for years. 

When I switched to Windows, I bought the Passport suite (Mastertracks Pro and Encore). used it on several film projects. Moved to Cakewalk Sonar in the early 2000s. Then on Mac after 2005 with Logic, then DP, then Studio One (Cubase in there as well). Ableton Live I tried... didn't gell with me. All purchased.. back then there weren't demo offerings of software so you kinda had to roll the dice..


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## MeloKeyz (Oct 16, 2021)

StefanoM said:


> I can understand your disappointment as "User", and it's correct. Think an independent developer like me how pissed he can be ( so that works HARD to create a top-quality product, but without the significant resources of a major company)
> . After working every day, for one year or more, on a library, and see it five days after the launch, on all torrent sites in the world. Libraries typically offer a lot of things and cost little. Think how pissed off I am. And I can't do anything.
> 
> EDIT
> ...


Stefano, love your stuff bro. I think you really need to add extra layer of protection in your products in the form of serial key activation. They are very easy to be pirated. Download code isn't enough protection.


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## tcollins (Oct 16, 2021)

Lindon said:


> Well this is I think wrong in intent at the very least. I, as an audio developer, invest time and money up front to make a sample library, studio time, session musicians, editing suites, programming, UI design the list goes on. I do this on the basis (projection) of sales. Let me be clear about what happens to sales when a pirated version of your software comes out, and let me also be clear this is based on 10 years of building and delivering audio software, it's not what I *think* happens it is what actually happens: On average two products that start out together in the same price point and with roughly the same features will generate roughly (within 10%) the same number of sales over time (its a curve but its pretty consistent). If product A is pirated then its sales fall to about 20% of product B, instantly and forever. See that forever bit there? The argument that pirate users will eventually buy your product is clearly wishful thinking.
> 
> So I don't literally lose money - the pirates don't come and take it off me, but I do lose revenue, and sure you can say more fool me for not accounting for the likelihood of piracy. But.. if I did account for this loss of revenue then my initial investment would have to be considerably smaller(in order to recoup my investment), products would have to be much more limited, and in the end I may decide to give up development altogether, I know a number of audio developers who have done exactly that.
> 
> ...


Preach it, brother!

To those defending the piracy of other people's work:

I would add that most of us developers must pay DMCA take-down services to keep piracy under control. If I didn't spend that money, a google search of one of my libraries wouldn't show my own site until the 3rd page of results, AFTER the pirates! This is the reality, and I know from experience. The smaller the company, the more devastating it can be.

If I am understanding some of these posts, they seem to say that it's OK to steal something just because you wanted it and can't afford it?

"Ethics is subjective"? So, as long as it doesn't hurt you it's OK? 

How about this one, from someone much smarter than myself:
"Treat others in the way you would like to be treated".

I think some people might imagine themselves as defending the disadvantaged against some kind of huge corporate system. Nope, that's not this tiny industry. It's more like encouraging someone to smash the window of their local bakery and make off with the goods that took hard work to create, then punching the baker in the face for good measure. Even the bigger players in this industry are technically small businesses. 

I've been broke. I know what it's like to not be able to afford the tools that could have made things easier. But there is growth in character and musical skill that occurs when we do what we can with what we have. Pirating is cheating, and robs us of both.


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## Double Helix (Oct 16, 2021)

Stemming from @bill5 and @charlieclouser's brief exchange (a couple of pages back), if I ran off a cassette of an album *that I owned*, was that "piracy"?
A thousand years ago, driving around the country with my dog and my B3, I had a cassette player/recorder in my van, which enabled me to record songs (or--many times--symphonies on classical stations) off the radio--obviously, I did not record the commercials, which had essentially paid for the "free" content. Did that fit the definition of "piracy"?


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## odod (Oct 16, 2021)

whenever i see someone's selling their plugins because the pirates has k'ed em down, i'd say they're trying to cheat the developer .. so they would consider that they just rented from the developer for a while, and while the k'ed is out they sell it to get the money back .. what an attitude


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## bill5 (Oct 16, 2021)

el-bo said:


> The irony is that there will have been those who never would’ve chanced their pocket-money on yours or others’ music, but getting hooked on a pirated CD of one of your albums led them to go out and buy everything you ever released.
> 
> Not saying that’s a definite for everyone…always. But it does happen It was that way with me and for many artists).
> 
> Suffice to say, it’s nuanced.


Exactly. I have talked to unknown artists who didn't have a problem with being pirated because it meant free exposure, which is what they needed. If people thought enough of their music to copy it around, great. Their hope was just as you said, that in that way they would become more known and ultimately they would get purchases they never would have gotten otherwise because people did not know about them.


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## MeloKeyz (Oct 16, 2021)

Thanks all for contributing in this discussion because I needed to listen to what's going on. I will always buy libraries and if not in full price, will buy them on sales to stay legal, get updates and support. I am sure when a pirated VST is installed, it destroys your system behind the scenes with malwares, ransomwares, trojans or viruses.


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## Jerry Growl (Oct 16, 2021)

Double Helix said:


> Stemming from @bill5 and @charlieclouser's brief exchange (a couple of pages back), if I ran off a cassette of an album *that I owned*, was that "piracy"?
> A thousand years ago, driving around the country with my dog and my B3, I had a cassette player/recorder in my van, which enabled me to record songs (or--many times--symphonies on classical stations) off the radio--obviously, I did not record the commercials, which had essentially paid for the "free" content. Did that fit the definition of "piracy"?


I'd say the first act of piracy in that context would be the classroom friend that came up with the idea that involved a double cassette deck and handing over an empty cassette where they would put mr/mrs/them Friend's top 20 in random order and some awful spelling mistakes in an effort to get some kind of index to it, so next time you would know what your friend was humming.


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## Phaedraz (Oct 16, 2021)

So, we know how the world is in this regard. What can we do about it?
Since we are selling licenses to use our creations, why can't we have different licenses for different usages like in the normal software industry. Imagine selling a sample library with a commercial usage license for X dollars and a hobby license for say half or third of X or something. 
Couldn't that encourage some of the "low finance" hobbyists to actually buy something instead of pirating?
Has anyone tried this business model?
Curios....


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## bill5 (Oct 16, 2021)

thesteelydane said:


> Maybe, but imagine if that mindset spreads. Imagine what happens to small developers if more and more people start to think like that?


Let's stick to reality, shall we? Pirates have always been the exception, not the rule. The idea that they are or will bring the industry to its knees has no basis in fact. No of course that doesn't make it OK, just pointing it out, as that seems to be what some people are implying. And I can't say that I know this for a fact, but I feel confident saying they are shrinking if for no other reason than it's getting harder to get stuff for free, at least from what I last heard or can tell. The torrent sites appear to be shifting to sites you can't just go to or just create a free account for, you have to pay to get in. And even if it's a relatively small cost, many (most?) of the gimme for free people will not go. i.e. while yes it's wrong etc etc, the sky is not falling.


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## Ciochi (Oct 16, 2021)

Lindon said:


> Well this is I think wrong in intent at the very least. I, as an audio developer, invest time and money up front to make a sample library, studio time, session musicians, editing suites, programming, UI design the list goes on. I do this on the basis (projection) of sales. Let me be clear about what happens to sales when a pirated version of your software comes out, and let me also be clear this is based on 10 years of building and delivering audio software, it's not what I *think* happens it is what actually happens: On average two products that start out together in the same price point and with roughly the same features will generate roughly (within 10%) the same number of sales over time (its a curve but its pretty consistent). If product A is pirated then its sales fall to about 20% of product B, instantly and forever. See that forever bit there? The argument that pirate users will eventually buy your product is clearly wishful thinking.
> 
> So I don't literally lose money - the pirates don't come and take it off me, but I do lose revenue, and sure you can say more fool me for not accounting for the likelihood of piracy. But.. if I did account for this loss of revenue then my initial investment would have to be considerably smaller(in order to recoup my investment), products would have to be much more limited, and in the end I may decide to give up development altogether, I know a number of audio developers who have done exactly that.
> 
> ...


hey mate. There's a question I have always had. How could they have new libraries so fast? I mean, someone has to buy it. Why would him/her share it via torrent? They already cracked SD by Heavyocity. I really don't get this.


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## musicmaker9000 (Oct 16, 2021)

I'm a hobbyist. I don't have a ton of money. I've had to save up for Komplete and all the libraries I've bought this year.
I also don't have the best computer. I could have bought a great PC for making music instead for the money I've spent on software.
I could have easily justified bad behaviour by "I can't afford it" or "I wouldn't have bought it anyway".
But I didn't.
This whole idea of "they are not going to purchase it anyway" and "they aren't losing any money" is a bad way of looking at it.
Had I decided to go with piracy instead, a lot of developers wouldn't have earned anything from the software I've bought this year.

Lets also not forget how many FREE options are available now while you save up for budget options like Amadeus or Nucleus.
There's plenty of options available.
It's a choice you make to pirate instead.


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## Lindon (Oct 16, 2021)

Ciochi said:


> hey mate. There's a question I have always had. How could they have new libraries so fast? I mean, someone has to buy it. Why would him/her share it via torrent? They already cracked SD by Heavyocity. I really don't get this.


No idea, most frequent reason is someone of the beta team leaked it.


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## Lindon (Oct 16, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Let's stick to reality, shall we? Pirates have always been the exception, not the rule. The idea that they are or will bring the industry to its knees has no basis in fact. No of course that doesn't make it OK, just pointing it out, as that seems to be what some people are implying. And I can't say that I know this for a fact, but I feel confident saying they are shrinking if for no other reason than it's getting harder to get stuff for free, at least from what I last heard or can tell. The torrent sites appear to be shifting to sites you can't just go to or just create a free account for, you have to pay to get in. And even if it's a relatively small cost, many (most?) of the gimme for free people will not go. i.e. while yes it's wrong etc etc, the sky is not falling.


Of course pirates wont bring the industry to its knees, that's a straw man argument, its not what is being said, what I at least am saying is its a smaller and more expensive industry for end users because of pirates.


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## halfwalk (Oct 16, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Piracy is why I stopped making albums.... 20 years ago.


I watched an interview with you just yesterday on Orchestral Tools' channel where you talked about using a reverse-engineered copy of Rebirth on The Fragile. My intent is not to call you a hypocrite but to point out that it is a complicated topic. Reverse engineering commercial software is almost always a violation of the EULA. But The Fragile went double-platinum anyway.

By that logic, it's okay for someone to download a cracked copy of Kontakt (assuming they paid for a license already), so that they can, say, delete a bunch of surround mics they never use from a string library (that you paid for) in order to free up space on their hard drive. The problem, going by the use case you talked about in your interview, is more to do with the _distribution_ of reverse-engineered software to non-paying users, rather than the actual use of it.

What's the difference here? You bought the software, and didn't like the restrictions it imposed, so you "cracked" it (or rather, Steve Duda of Xfer, ironically based on the Kanye/Serum post earlier, cracked it for you). And nobody got hurt (presumably).



Lindon said:


> Let me be clear about what happens to sales when a pirated version of your software


To be fair, while your message is poignant, your analysis isn't exactly scientific here. There are confounding variables you have overlooked. Some libraries simply sell better than others. You can't necessarily equate the sales of Fuji apples and Granny Smith apples, just because they are both apples. Additionally, while your anecdotal experience may be true _for you_, it is not fair to then say "it's not what I *think* happens it is what actually happens." Logically, that doesn't hold up. If I break my arm moving a couch, that doesn't mean everyone breaks their arm moving a couch. So it's not fair for me to go on a couch-moving forum and say "Let me be clear about what happens when you move a couch."


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## bill5 (Oct 16, 2021)

musicmaker9000 said:


> Lets also not forget how many FREE options are available now while you save up for budget options like Amadeus or Nucleus.
> There's plenty of options available.
> It's a choice you make to pirate instead.


Amadeus and Nucleus aren't free, but your overall point stands.


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## musicmaker9000 (Oct 16, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Amadeus and Nucleus aren't free, but your overall point stands.


No but BBC discover and LABS is. Read my message again


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## bill5 (Oct 16, 2021)

Lindon said:


> Of course pirates wont bring the industry to its knees, that's a straw man argument, its not what is being said


That's the general impression I got (more or less) from some here.


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## bill5 (Oct 16, 2021)

musicmaker9000 said:


> No but BBC discover and LABS is. Read my message again


Edit: oops, my bad!


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## Lindon (Oct 16, 2021)

halfwalk said:


> To be fair, while your message is poignant, your analysis isn't exactly scientific here. There are confounding variables you have overlooked. Some libraries simply sell better than others. You can't necessarily equate the sales of Fuji apples and Granny Smith apples, just because they are both apples. Additionally, while your anecdotal experience may be true _for you_, it is not fair to then say "it's not what I *think* happens it is what actually happens." Logically, that doesn't hold up. If I break my arm moving a couch, that doesn't mean everyone breaks their arm moving a couch. So it's not fair for me to go on a couch-moving forum and say "Let me be clear about what happens when you move a couch."


you are right, I should have said this is what happens to me, and has happened for over 10 years, I could add its (more or less) what is being agreed with by all the other audio software developers in this thread. So to use your analogy:

When I move sofas I break my arm, and have done consistently for ten years of sofa moving, and so does a large proportion of the other professional sofa movers. I think at that point its safe to say if you have no experience of moving sofas then the consistent advice you are being offered by people who move sofas for a living is that there's a good chance you will break your arm....of course you may not but again we see logic being applied against experience. I can logically think "wow there's no real chance of breaking my arm there, how ridiculous is that statement", and then you go get some experience doing it and discover the actual doing isn't anything like you thought it was going to be...how often is that the case for you? I know for me its 100% of the time.

To para-phrase Edward DeBono: "Logic and the schools of logic are vastly overrated when compared to experience."


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## musicmaker9000 (Oct 16, 2021)




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## Stringtree (Oct 16, 2021)

I got a chance to tell my rock hero I once stole a cassette from a record store and became a lifelong fan, subsequently buying everything else and going to every local show. I said I was sorry.

This did not help. Every little bit hurts. The look on his face reminded me these are people, not crappy vending machines that happen to be easy to tip and get free snacks out of. His music is his life. 

Today, everything I use is something I bought, and I don't even know what I have. Torrent, indeed.


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## Mistro (Oct 16, 2021)

Legit question....Software is electronic products that live in our electricity grids. They are not hardware stocked on shelves of brick and mortar storefronts. I would think that the cheaper a product is, the more sales it would have and the less piracy would be attractive. Imagine the difference in response of pirating Cubase Pro vs Reaper. Why not software companies make their products more accessable to as many would be users as possible instead of selling a horn library for $500 for example? Tens of Thousands of people are not gonna be running to their PCs to get that $500 horn plugin in a short amount of time. Especially in this current economy.

Imagine if it was way more affordable how many more sales would they get and would it match or exceed the sales they are currently doing? I'm sure owners of .99 cent stores own very nice houses.


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## doctoremmet (Oct 16, 2021)

Mistro said:


> Legit question....Software is electronic products that live in our electricity grids. They are not hardware stocked on shelves of brick and mortar storefronts. I would think that the cheaper a product is, the more sales it would have and the less piracy would be attractive. Imagine the difference in response of pirating Cubase Pro vs Reaper. Why not software companies make their products more accessable to as many would be users as possible instead of selling a horn library for $500 for example? Tens of Thousands of people are not gonna be running to their PCs to get that $500 horn plugin in a short amount of time. Especially in this current economy.
> 
> Imagine if it was way more affordable how many more sales would they get and would it match or exceed the sales they are currently doing? I'm sure owners of .99 stores own very nice houses.


Maybe do a primer on economics


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## Klesk (Oct 16, 2021)

Mistro said:


> Legit question....Software is electronic products that live in our electricity grids. They are not hardware stocked on shelves of brick and mortar storefronts. I would think that the cheaper a product is, the more sales it would have and the less piracy would be attractive. Imagine the difference in response of pirating Cubase Pro vs Reaper. Why not software companies make their products more accessable to as many would be users as possible instead of selling a horn library for $500 for example? Tens of Thousands of people are not gonna be running to their PCs to get that $500 horn plugin in a short amount of time. Especially in this current economy.
> 
> Imagine if it was way more affordable how many more sales would they get and would it match or exceed the sales they are currently doing? I'm sure owners of .99 cent stores own very nice houses.


Sure, more people would buy it but only to a point. There is not an unlimited number of customers that line up to buy any sample library or plugin (especially given this is a very competitive sector). From a developer's standpoint, it is best to find some middle ground, which is the price that makes the developer the most money.

If the software brings the value, professionals that will use it buy it even if it is expensive. Then some hobbyists buy it. Then you do 50% BF sale and some more people buy it. With a good business strategy and marketing you can squeeze a lot from one product, as long as it is actually good (and sometimes even when it isn't). Piracy might not even be a factor when deciding a product price.


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## FlyingAndi (Oct 16, 2021)

MeloKeyz said:


> If the music is excellent, they will pay. Plus, how will the audience know that the music production was pirated?


I think, you didn't get my argument.
I didn't mean to talk about the audience (who will pay for music even if it isn't excellent and software was pirated, as Kanye has shown ).

I was talking about the mindset of musicians who use pirated software but probably want their own music to be paid for and not pirated. They are probably applying double standards for themselves and for people pirating their music.


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## pulsedownloader (Oct 16, 2021)

Mistro said:


> Legit question....Software is electronic products that live in our electricity grids. They are not hardware stocked on shelves of brick and mortar storefronts. I would think that the cheaper a product is, the more sales it would have and the less piracy would be attractive. Imagine the difference in response of pirating Cubase Pro vs Reaper. Why not software companies make their products more accessable to as many would be users as possible instead of selling a horn library for $500 for example? Tens of Thousands of people are not gonna be running to their PCs to get that $500 horn plugin in a short amount of time. Especially in this current economy.
> 
> Imagine if it was way more affordable how many more sales would they get and would it match or exceed the sales they are currently doing? I'm sure owners of .99 cent stores own very nice houses.


Free software gets pirated. Literally free sample libraries that are entirely free to download show up on pirate websites.

It's all about clout. The pirate groups want to release as many products as they can for recognition from their peers within their groups. They use stolen credit cards and VPNs to hide who they are so will generally buy the product immediately on release so they can be the first to release


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## KEM (Oct 16, 2021)

The only thing I've ever torrented is movies, and they were movies I'd actually bought already. Why? Because iTunes doesn't allow you to download movies in good quality, seriously, I pay $20 for a movie and the quality they allow me to download them in is less than 720p, and thats for the "HD" version they're marketing. I'm sure it's an anti-piracy thing, but it makes the product much worse for the paying customer. So after I buy a movie on iTunes to show my support for the creator I immediately go and torrent a 4k blu-ray rip so that I can actually enjoy my viewing experience, and I have absolutely no shame in doing it


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## charlieclouser (Oct 16, 2021)

halfwalk said:


> I watched an interview with you just yesterday on Orchestral Tools' channel where you talked about using a reverse-engineered copy of Rebirth on The Fragile. My intent is not to call you a hypocrite but to point out that it is a complicated topic. Reverse engineering commercial software is almost always a violation of the EULA. But The Fragile went double-platinum anyway.
> 
> By that logic, it's okay for someone to download a cracked copy of Kontakt (assuming they paid for a license already), so that they can, say, delete a bunch of surround mics they never use from a string library (that you paid for) in order to free up space on their hard drive. The problem, going by the use case you talked about in your interview, is more to do with the _distribution_ of reverse-engineered software to non-paying users, rather than the actual use of it.
> 
> What's the difference here? You bought the software, and didn't like the restrictions it imposed, so you "cracked" it (or rather, Steve Duda of Xfer, ironically based on the Kanye/Serum post earlier, cracked it for you). And nobody got hurt (presumably).


What's the difference?

WE PAID FOR THE SOFTWARE LICENSES.

And we didn't download a cracked version (as in your example) or upload our modified versions. We did not participate in the *distribution* of the software, modified or not. If someone, as in your example, downloads a cracked Kontakt to delete surround mics, then that's quite different than if they broke out their coding skills to open the hood and fiddle with the guts - as we did.

We bought multiple licenses, maybe a dozen or so. I personally bought three just for myself. I still have Rebirth RB-338 CD-ROMS in a drawer ten feet from where I'm sitting. I've also paid for three ReCyle licenses, multiple Reason licenses and every single paid upgrade they ever offered, even though I was a beta tester for Reason v1.0 and I even did demo songs for it that were included in the release package.

Did we violate the terms of the EULA? Absolutely. Did we steal? No. Did we cost the devs any money, or reduce their sales? No. Did we share the software with anyone who hadn't paid for it? No. Did we upload our modified versions to any crack boards? No.

I tend to think that the fact that we jump-started the process of creating ReBirth Mods, which later became a marketable feature of the actual software itself, and that I was involved in the marketing push for Reason, would have a net positive effect.

If the discussion is about "who violates the letter, but not the spirit, of EULA agreements", then... guilty. But this thread started out as a discussion about crack boards and downloading software that hasn't been paid for - and that is what I'm commenting on.

It's not a morally complex topic, it's about stealing things you haven't paid for, not about modifying things you *did* pay for. I put our ReBirth mods from 1997 in the same category as "right to repair" issues - should owners of a $400k John Deere harvester be allowed to repair broken electronics, or should they be forced to maintain an active subscription to a John Deere service plan in order to repair some wiring? (I'm not talking about illegally re-flashing the GPS module with new maps or anything like that) What about third-party iPhone screen replacements? Where does that fall on your moral landscape? 

I modify the cars I own. I modify the computers, gear, and guitars I own. And if I can, I modify the software that I've purchased licenses for. The main difference is that I can re-sell the modified cars, gear, and guitars if I want and the buyer might even be pleased with those modifications. But I don't re-sell or give away software or sound libraries, whether or not I've modified them. Because the licenses are to *use* the software or sound libraries - you don't *own* the thing itself. So I never sell software or sound libraries, and always have considered those expenses as "expendables" and not "investments". That's why I don't mind that I've bought hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of software and sound libraries over the last 35 years that I never used, never sold, and never tried to recoup "my investment" from. They're nails, not hammers. They're rolls of duct tape that get thrown in the drawer and maybe used, maybe not, until the adhesive gets all gooey and they wind up in the trash.

There is no moral ambiguity for me, my conscience is clear.


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## charlieclouser (Oct 16, 2021)

Double Helix said:


> Stemming from @bill5 and @charlieclouser's brief exchange (a couple of pages back), if I ran off a cassette of an album *that I owned*, was that "piracy"?
> A thousand years ago, driving around the country with my dog and my B3, I had a cassette player/recorder in my van, which enabled me to record songs (or--many times--symphonies on classical stations) off the radio--obviously, I did not record the commercials, which had essentially paid for the "free" content. Did that fit the definition of "piracy"?


Nope. That is settled law as of 1992 in the USA. The Audio Home Recording Act "includes blanket protection from infringement actions for private, non-commercial _analog_ audio copying, and for digital audio copies made with certain kinds of digital audio recording technology."

So you were not committing piracy.

Now, if you had made a 1:1 digital copy by means that circumvented SCMS (Serial Copy Management System) protections, like using a professional CD player with digital output to record to a professional DAT machine via digital input (because those devices were "professional" and had no SCMS implemented or had means to bypass it), then you are guilty of stealing from the recording industry and would have been hanged by the neck until dead and your corpse laid on the steps of the U.S. Capitol (or maybe the Capitol Records building, I forget which...).


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## novaburst (Oct 16, 2021)

Pirating is none other than criminality, and if your caught you can end up in prison, 
The worst thing about pirating is their excuses, and reasons for doing it so that their minds can be east when pirating or stealing, they often say well the developer is making so much money, or they say when i have the cash i will purchase it, or they say every one does it.

The real reason is that there is no accountability for what they have stolen, and they can hide behind the internet and break the law as much as their belly can take.

So if for instance what if all software and plugins and libraries were not on the net but in real life stores would the pirate walk in that store and pick up 50 CDs and put it in their bag..... no because at the exit of that store there will be be a security guard waiting to put the pirate in hand cuffs and take them to the police station and then they would receive a criminal record and probably end up in prison, so in real life it is a sure accountability the pirate will face, but on the internet they hide behind false identity so that there is no accountability.

and so often before a thief or pirate practises criminality they give them selves a soothing excuse to ease their minds before they do the crime.

i know these are harsh words but their is no grey area in this act of pirating its black or white, stealing or not stealing.

When there is so much opportunity that has been provided by the internet we really need to listen to our conscience you know that is the small voice saying to you what your doing is wrong but that morel voice is so often overwritten by greed, excuses, and if there is no accountability.

Why do you think there are so many cameras in our streets and stores and speed traps its because there is a better chance that the person doing any crime can be bought to justice and give accountability

But when there is no threat of justice some people normally live by wrong deeds hence pirating, credit card copying identity stealing, it all comes under the same thing pirating and those who practice it should not be under any elusions that they contribute to a very dangerous criminal organization that has spread nearly world wide.


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## halfwalk (Oct 16, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> What's the difference?
> 
> WE PAID FOR THE SOFTWARE LICENSES.
> 
> ...


This just serves to prove a few points I've made in this thread (that people seem to be ignoring):

1. Reverse engineering of the software (ReBirth, in this case), while in violation of the EULA, led to innovation and growth, both of the software/technology itself and of the modding community around it.

2. It was not morally wrong to violate the letter of the EULA of that software in that way, since you paid for the software, and didn't harm anyone (e.g. you didn't redistribute the software or the source code).

My intent was not to try to accuse you of any wrongdoing. Rather, I was citing your stated experience as evidence for my whole point: *the subject is not so black and white. *I think what you guys did with ReBirth was great!

Is stealing wrong? Of course! Does piracy hurt the developers? Yes! Does piracy hurt the paying users? Yes! A lot of good points have been made in this thread strongly indicating that piracy does all of these things.

_But that's not all it does. _This is the point that people are dismissing, and making ad hominem attacks at me for, telling me to delete my account and never post here again, telling me I'm defending/praising/condoning pirates. I'm not! But I'm pointing out the other aspects of it that are ignored or outright denied in the name of virtue or whatever. Downloading a product you didn't pay for is immoral and criminal. But that's not the entire story.

As a parallel: sure, owning a gun _enables you_ to become an armed robber or murderer _if you so choose_. But it would be absolutely absurd to say "he's got a gun, he must be a murderer!" No, the reality is a lot more nuanced than that. 

I am not saying people should pirate or steal. What I am saying is that people seem to have such a strong emotional reaction to the subject that they refuse to see anything beyond "piracy bad!" which can lead to a lot of one-sided, one-dimensional thought and conversation. Perhaps we could all benefit from having our perspectives challenged.

Am I wrong about a lot of things? Hell yeah. But I'd hate to think that there is only one way to be "right" and that being "right" is all that's allowed. I understand my perspective is not liked or welcomed here,. If I could delete my account I would, and at least a few people would be happier for it.

As I show myself out, I just want to reiterate: reality is not black and white. And we should have faith that not everyone who violates our moral standards is the scum of the earth. We don't always know the stories or motivations of our fellow humans. But like it or not, they are _fellow humans_.


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## YaniDee (Oct 16, 2021)

Any opinions on this scenario?
You buy software, say a vst instrument..you use it on a bunch of projects..a few years later you want to re-install on a new computer. Then you discover that the license server and / or tech support doesn't exist any more. Would you install a cracked version if available?


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## novaburst (Oct 16, 2021)

halfwalk said:


> I am not saying people should pirate or steal. What I am saying is that people seem to have such a strong emotional reaction to the subject that they refuse to see anything beyond "piracy bad!" which can lead to a lot of one-sided, one-dimensional thought and conversation. Perhaps we could all benefit from having our perspectives challenged.


You cant find anything nice about doing something wrong, its just simply wrong there is no other perspective around it but wrong there are no grey areas. 

Its almost saying lets try to make the wrong right and the right wrong so it fits in with our life or standard that may be half wrong and half right

we can have all these sophisticated conversations on the forum and try to give legit reasons for pirating and then go to our comfortable bed and have a good night sleep, but if the pirate was caught and now is standing in front of a judge in court with a real possibility that the next sleeping space is going to be inside a prison for a few years would pirates be saying the same thing as they did on forums ...no

I am sure they would be saying i am very sorry for what i have done please dont send me to jail i have a wife and children 

Then the word pirating want seem so friendly


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Oct 16, 2021)

YaniDee said:


> Any opinions on this scenario?
> You buy software, say a vst instrument..you use it on a bunch of projects..a few years later you want to re-install on a new computer. Then you discover that the license server and / or tech support doesn't exist any more. Would you install a cracked version if available?


I wouldn’t, but not because I think it would be morally wrong. You did pay for the license to use the software after all. But installing any cracked software whatsoever is a no-no for me, both from a security standpoint and out of principle.


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## marclawsonmusic (Oct 16, 2021)

halfwalk said:


> This is the point that people are dismissing, and making ad hominem attacks at me for, telling me to delete my account and never post here again


@halfwalk, I apologized in PM and even publicly on this thread, but will do so again. I'm sorry for calling you a lunatic. Name-calling is not nice and I was wrong to do that.

That said, I am not sure what your position is on this issue anymore. You seem to be backpedaling and are not offering an alternative perspective other than saying 'it's not black and white'.

I honestly cannot think of a single case when piracy - meaning downloading and using software you didn't pay for - is right or justified. It really is a black and white issue. (If you want to offer a real-world example where you think it is OK, feel free.)

And you are right that this topic evokes a strong emotional reaction. It's not because you are surrounded by do-good paladins trying to uphold the rule of law - it's because this issue affects our community... right here. When someone pirates a sample library, they are likely stealing from someone on this very forum. And I'm sorry, that's not nice. No matter how you (or anyone else) spins it... it's just not nice.


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## PaxJupp (Oct 16, 2021)

To be honest the original post comes off a bit like virtue signalling, I agree pirating is bad and there a lot of great free sample library & vsts out there - LABS, Pianobook, SINE offerings, etc.

At the same time if we take music streaming for example, artists get literally a fraction of a penny for streams, you’d need to be Kanye West or Justin Bieber to make any kind of real money. So one could argue Spotify, Apple Music, etc. are stealing from artists as well. Yet because they are huge corporations and they do it in a “legal” way - what they do is seen as acceptable.

Unfortunately it’s not black & white. I agree that if you become a composer and start earning lots of money and you need these expensive libraries you should pay for them. If you are just a bedroom composer doing stuff for yourself and to learn the tools, I don’t think it’s such an awful thing to use something that may have been torrented.

But again I know there are people in the world who see things black & white, right & wrong, and that’s fine. However I think we must realize that things are more nuanced and life is more grey.

I also agree that pirating, as some have stated here, can actually drive sales - like we saw with Serum & Kayne West - maybe that whole thing was a ploy for the very purpose of driving sales - because that’s exactly what happened. 

Anyways I know lots of you will disagree, and that’s totally fine. As long as we stay respectful of each other & forgo the name calling 😊


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## michalioz (Oct 16, 2021)

I didn't read the whole thread and I've proudly paid for all my libraries. I just wonder if pirates magically started buying, would that translate in higher margins for the companies or lower prices for us, or both. They are expensive toys and some cost the amount of a real instrument - I wonder if that's partially because of piracy.


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## Technostica (Oct 16, 2021)

People who behave in ways that we find disagreeable or deplorable are usually or maybe even always suffering on some level.
Does it do us or them any good to judge them harshly?
Their behaviour can be looked at as a symptom of an immature or even a disturbed mind.
Do we really want to persecute the immature and disturbed?
If we feel anger, then so be it, but we can also choose to feel compassion.
It's a choice and I think it's a healthy one for ourselves and for the other parties.
Forgiveness and understanding are profound positions to address someone from.
They free ourselves from resentment and also send a constructive message to the other.
If you want the world to be a more loving place, then it starts with you.

Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged.
How many times do we turn the other cheek?
As many as it takes. 

Music for me has been a passionate love affair since I was a child. 
Music connects me to love in profound ways. 
Some of my first spiritual teachers were musicians whose records I bought and listened to. 
Behind every sample pirate there is a lover of music. 
You wouldn't take the time to pirate if you didn't love music.
So we have common ground, focus on that.
If you go deep enough into someone, at their core you will find love.
We are all born with that, as can be so clearly seen in the very young.
Regardless of the surface storm around someone, that appears to hide their light, their love, it is still there within them.
An awakened person can always see the light in anyone, but most of us are sleep walking and we bump into obstacles on the path and get angry.
So we groggily judge the pirate for disturbing our slumber.
They can only disturb our egos as our hearts are impervious.
So why not love the pirates as much as they love the open seas, me hearties. 

_“Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,
there is a field. I’ll meet you there.
When the soul lies down in that grass,
the world is too full to talk about.
Ideas, language, even the phrase “each other”
doesn’t make any sense.

The breeze at dawn has secrets to tell you.
Don’t go back to sleep.
You must ask for what you really want.
Don’t go back to sleep.
People are going back and forth across the doorsill
where the two worlds touch.
The door is round and open.
Don’t go back to sleep.”

Rumi (Extract from _A Great Wagon).


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## musicmaker9000 (Oct 16, 2021)

Technostica said:


> People who behave in ways that we find disagreeable or deplorable are usually or maybe even always suffering on some level.
> Does it do us or them any good to judge them harshly?
> Their behaviour can be looked at as a symptom of an immature or even a disturbed mind.
> Do we really want to persecute the immature and disturbed?
> ...


That bible verse tells not to judge hypocritically. 
We make judgements every single day. Impossible to go through life without it.

Some pirates just doesn't want to pay for the product. Simple as that. And they will encourage other people to pirate constantly in youtube comments (I've seen it a million times)
One thing is pirating but still knowing it's wrong, another is to pirate and then advertise to others that they should just pirate instead of paying for their products.

Nothing wrong with pointing out piracy being wrong.

I used to pirate myself. So I understand how it can be justified in our minds.
That doesn't mean it's right.
Pointing out that piracy is wrong is not showing lack of compassion to anyone.
Ignoring these wrongs I would argue is more showing lack of compassion towards those who are harmed by it.
If any pirates read this thread and feel "judged" .. Good! Maybe they will listen to their conscience, instread of supressing it with their excuses.


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## Technostica (Oct 16, 2021)

The idea of right or wrong is a concept of the ego.
That’s why I ended with Rumi.


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## Joakim (Oct 16, 2021)

I am SO disappointed it took this long for another piracy thread to pop up.


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## Fever Phoenix (Oct 16, 2021)

bdr said:


> when I saw the post’s title I thought my mother had made a post about me…


dude, lol times square! bahahaaaa!


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## Technostica (Oct 16, 2021)

Joakim said:


> I am SO disappointed it took this long for another piracy thread to pop up.


If one doesn’t pop up frequently enough, I suppose we could just copy a piracy thread wholesale from another site and paste it in here.
Although, not sure that would send the ‘right signal’.


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## Quasar (Oct 16, 2021)

I for one would be much happier if even one tenth of energy spent on music forums self-righteously condemning piracy was spent instead on building public pressure to end all business practices that use invasive copy protection, which IMHO is the much greater evil.


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## Fleer (Oct 16, 2021)

3DC said:


> In 3D industry they stop fighting piracy years ago with "indie" licences. For example Autodesk Maya is only 350EUR if you don't make more then 50.000 EUR per year.


^^^ This could provide a solution against piracy, charging (much) more for commercial use. Some devs do so by offering low cost edu licenses. Maybe ‘hobbyist’ versus ‘pro’ licensing would curtail piracy.


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## musicmaker9000 (Oct 16, 2021)

Quasar said:


> I for one would be much happier if even one tenth of energy spent on music forums self-righteously condemning piracy was spent instead on building public pressure to end all business practices that use invasive copy protection, which IMHO is the much greater evil.


You do understand that it's in place because of piracy though, right?


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## Quasar (Oct 16, 2021)

musicmaker9000 said:


> You do understand that it's in place because of piracy though, right?


No, I do not understand that. Nor do I believe that it's true. And even if it were, it quite obviously doesn't work, so what's the point?


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## MeloKeyz (Oct 16, 2021)

FlyingAndi said:


> I think, you didn't get my argument.
> I didn't mean to talk about the audience (who will pay for music even if it isn't excellent and software was pirated, as Kanye has shown ).
> 
> I was talking about the mindset of musicians who use pirated software but probably want their own music to be paid for and not pirated. They are probably applying double standards for themselves and for people pirating their music.


Ok, got it. Karma will play a little game with them in the future.


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## SZK-Max (Oct 16, 2021)

I need a cracked $1000 mac pro
Hardware cannot be cracked. Composition will eventually be restricted for pirates.


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## KEM (Oct 16, 2021)

SZK-Max said:


> I need a cracked $1000 mac pro
> Hardware cannot be cracked. Composition will eventually be restricted for pirates.



I don’t know where you’re seeing Mac Pro’s for $1k but I want in


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## Pier (Oct 16, 2021)

MeloKeyz said:


> Excuse me but what's the relation between trying a product and the pirates? You will end up buying it in the end if you like it, right? And the pirates will still be there


The relationship between piracy and consumer experience is well documented at this point.

For example, music and video torrents went down when iTunes, Spotify, and Netflix started to operate. It's the same with videogames and Steam or with the Adobe Creative Suite.

Honestly I doubt most professionals use pirated audio software these days. I'm sure some do, but I don't think it's the majority. Heck, who doesn't love spending money on gear and tools? 

Another point is that a lot of the audience pirating software would not be paying for it anyway. If it was impossible for them to pirate samples and synths, they would most likely just use free stuff.

In my case, I don't pirate stuff anymore. I will admit that used to pirate stuff 20+ years ago when I was a poor student. I started paying for software when I started making money from it. If sample companies like Spitfire found a way to demo their products, I'd be more likely to buy. I've been disappointed way too many times. Honestly, I think what we need is something like Steam for audio software.


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## Nico5 (Oct 16, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Making cassettes of albums back when is no different then downloading them now.


That's actually not universally true. In some jurisdictions (including Canada), copying for personal use to cassette or CD was legal because there was an extra charge on blank media to effectively pay for that right. Somewhat ironically you had to pay that charge, even if you never recorded anything, but your own original material.

Copyright law has been messy and varied around the world.


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## easyrider (Oct 16, 2021)

ka00 said:


> Is the pirated stuff all Kontakt libs? Is that part of the reason devs are moving to their own players?


Devs move over to their own players to cut out the middle man….

But you need money and lots of it to develop and maintain your own player…


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## fakemaxwell (Oct 16, 2021)

The classic take on this remains from Gabe Newell of Valve:


> "We think there is a fundamental misconception about piracy. Piracy is almost always a service problem and not a pricing problem," he said. "If a pirate offers a product anywhere in the world, 24 x 7, purchasable from the convenience of your personal computer, and the legal provider says the product is region-locked, will come to your country 3 months after the US release, and can only be purchased at a brick and mortar store, then the pirate's service is more valuable."


Music piracy is essentially done-zo, same with video game piracy. It's more work to do both of those than pay for Spotify or buy through Steam. When will the same happen for music production software?


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## musicmaker9000 (Oct 16, 2021)

fakemaxwell said:


> The classic take on this remains from Gabe Newell of Valve:
> 
> Music piracy is essentially done-zo, same with video game piracy. It's more work to do both of those than pay for Spotify or buy through Steam. When will the same happen for music production software?


I think it's most certainly about price with VST/Samples.
All those things he mentioned is already available for Samples.


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## charlieclouser (Oct 16, 2021)

Pier said:


> The relationship between piracy and consumer experience is well documented at this point.
> 
> For example, music and video torrents went down when iTunes, Spotify, and Netflix started to operate. It's the same with videogames and Steam or with the Adobe Creative Suite.


Yep. As long as you have a PayPal account, decent internet speeds, and the money, then the modern buying experience for software and sound libraries is so quick-n-easy-n-painless that piracy is waaayyy more hassle, and I'd bet that cracked software is a big vector for malware, miner-ware, etc.

Even though we don't have the equivalent of Steam for music software and sound libraries, it's still easy and fast to buy stuff legitimately.


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## Quasar (Oct 16, 2021)

shponglefan said:


> This is one of the more frustrating things about buying legitimate software; having to deal with annoying DRM schemes.
> 
> It's especially frustrating to think that after paying hundreds of dollars for a piece of software, someone who downloaded it for free is not only saving that money, but potentially enjoying a superior experience by not having to deal with the DRM.
> 
> This can be countered through value-add propositions where the delivery and/or continued support of the software can offer a compelling trade-off versus downloading a free version. I look at Valve's Steam store as being a primary example of that.


I agree with your first point about the CP being the single most dystopic aspect of what is otherwise a miraculous, marvelous technological capability.

I don't share your second frustration. I pay for what I use, look for sales, it costs what it costs, and it's irrelevant to me whether someone else got it for a better price or for free. Whether someone downloaded the software illegally or whether someone got a comp because they did a review or whatever, what's it to me?

I'm neither a developer nor a capitalist, but I do not understand why for-profit companies wouldn't be better off thinking of revenue as revenue, and focus exclusively on the people who buy their products rather than worry about the people who don't.

For example, I have never had nor will I ever create an iLok account. Since I don't use pirated software, this means I don't have any of the products that require it, which in turn means that those companies get zero dollars from me. If I were a pirate and downloaded DRM-free versions of their iLok infested software, they would STILL get zero dollars from me. Since 0 = 0, how does whether or not I am a pirate make any material difference to their revenue stream from their point of view?

If, on the other hand, they dropped all of the CP nonsense and embraced the Free Software idea (free as in freedom to use, not as in free of charge) it would open up a whole new market (however large or small) of people like me who would now potentially buy their software. Those who want to pirate would obviously still do that, but this is already happening now anyway, so it's difficult for me to see the downside of giving up "protection" that fails to protect.

Thankfully, there are still many developers who do offer righteous ease-of-use, local license numbers or key files that give us the freedom to use the software independently from remote servers, offline, making it exponentially more reliable and stable, and making it easy to transfer content to a new computer or whatever: Cockos/Reaper, Valhalla DSP, Klanghelm, AudioThing, uHe, ToneBoosters, Garritan, Melda Production, Fabfilter and Hornet are just a few that immediately come to mind. These companies have somehow managed to stay in business without harassing their customers...

...So I have to believe it would be possible for the others to do this as well. But they would perhaps have to give up a capitalist control freak mentality or something. I'm confident that the biggest barrier to righteous software commerce is psychosocial, not economic.

For people who freak-out over the idea that someone else got a better deal than they did, or a deal that you don't think they deserve, I would suggest reading the _Parable of the Vineyard Workers_ in the biblical New Testament. The story is about people who have exactly that problem.


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## bill5 (Oct 16, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> What's the difference?
> 
> WE PAID FOR THE SOFTWARE LICENSES.


...which did not give you the right to modify the software.



> Did we violate the terms of the EULA? Absolutely. Did we steal? No.
> 
> It's not a morally complex topic,


Of course it is, and your post is more evidence of it. You violated the EULA and think that's perfectly OK. I suspect creators of software wouldn't always agree. EULAs are there for a reason, and it's more than just the "letter of the law." PS I am not necessarily criticizing or condemning what you did; frankly offhand I couldn't care less. Just pointing out that everyone draws their lines in different places and different ways and anyone saying "there's my opinion and the wrong one"...well, I would hope that speaks for itself. 



> it's about stealing things you haven't paid for, not about modifying things you *did* pay for. I put our ReBirth mods from 1997 in the same category as "right to repair" issues


If I understand what you did (maybe I don't?), you didn't "repair" anything. You changed it to suit your needs. Hardly the same thing. And regardless, no, you don't have any "right" whatsoever to change or even repair any commercial product someone else created without their permission. 



> There is no moral ambiguity for me, my conscience is clear.


I'm sure pirates say the same thing.


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## Quasar (Oct 16, 2021)

bill5 said:


> .EULAs are there for a reason, and it's more than just the "letter of the law."


No it's not. EULAs are just crap written by lawyers for the perceived benefit of the company's capital interest, and they all say, regardless of the verbiage, exactly the same thing:

_We have the right do do whatever the fuck we want and the right to change our minds about whatever the fuck we want to do at any time and for any reason, and you have the right to agree to this condition as a prerequisite to using our software._

So everyone clicks on the agree button without reading it (why should we?) and moves on. That's all EULAs are. To call them worthless would be an insult to the concept of worthlessness.


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## bill5 (Oct 16, 2021)

novaburst said:


> You cant find anything nice about doing something wrong, its just simply wrong there is no other perspective around it but wrong there are no grey areas.


Insert facepalm icon here.

Of course there are gray areas. Quite a few. What's "wrong" or "right" is subjective. Neither you nor I nor anyone else has a lock on it. Nobody here is the Gatekeeper of Holy Truth and Morality. THAT'S HIS POINT. This should not be hard to understand. Agree or disagree with someone if you like, but admit at least to yourself if not others that it's all you are doing...having two different opinions about something...and leave it at that.


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## bill5 (Oct 16, 2021)

Quasar said:


> No it's not. EULAs are just crap written by lawyers for the perceived benefit of the company's capital interest, and they all say, regardless of the verbiage, exactly the same thing:
> 
> _We have the right do do whatever the fuck we want and the right to change our minds about whatever the fuck we want to do at any time and for any reason, and you have the right to agree to this condition as a prerequisite to using our software._
> 
> So everyone clicks on the agree button without reading it (why should we?) and moves on. That's all EULAs are. To call them worthless would be an insult to the concept of worthlessness.


Given that these are legally binding, I would disagree. In spirit anyway.


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## bill5 (Oct 16, 2021)

ka00 said:


> Is the pirated stuff all Kontakt libs? Is that part of the reason devs are moving to their own players?


No. Companies are moving to their own players so they aren't slaves to NI and I applaud the movement, although the results have been mixed.


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## Obi-Wan Spaghetti (Oct 16, 2021)

I have a theory that devellopers might not be losing nearly as much money as we think because most poeple who use cracked software were never going to buy it in the 1st place because, a) they don't have the money. Or b) if the only way to get a copy was to pay for it they'd talk themselves out of it because they really don't want it that much after all. The thing is that it's so easy to download stuff so you get way more than you normally would. Imagine all the stuff you'd get if you could walk in a store and don't have to pay for anything. This is just a theory and pure speculation but i think there's truth to that. In the end, i think people that are actually potential costumers are those that are serious and they would rather pay for their software. And I'm writing this dressed up as a pirate so I'm very serious.


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## thevisi0nary (Oct 16, 2021)




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## Quasar (Oct 16, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Given that these are legally binding, I would disagree. In spirit anyway.


How legally binding they are remains an open question. Sometimes they are and sometimes they're not, and a court decision might depend on the specific merits of the case, or on what the judge ate for breakfast and whether or not he or she is experiencing heartburn on that particular day.

The state of North Carolina has a law stipulating that a bingo game session may not last more than 5 hours, so if you ever get into trouble there while engaging in what you thought was innocent fun, don't say you weren't warned!


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## Fleer (Oct 16, 2021)

Dang. Got to get out of Sunset Beach.


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## Polkasound (Oct 16, 2021)

bill5 said:


> EULAs are there for a reason, and it's more than just the "letter of the law."


I think that's exactly Charlie's point. Even though the letter of the law says you can't drive 56MPH in a 55MPH zone, the spirit of the law allows for it. The law is really designed to deter dangerously fast driving. Likewise, EULAs are written to deter copyright violations and other forms of abuse that can affect the developer. The letter of the EULA says "don't reverse-engineer our software" but the spirit of the EULA says, "we don't care what you do to your own legitimately-purchased copy of our software behind closed doors as long as you're not modifying it to unlock unpaid content, redistributing it, or stealing code."



YaniDee said:


> Any opinions on this scenario?
> You buy software, say a vst instrument..you use it on a bunch of projects..a few years later you want to re-install on a new computer. Then you discover that the license server and / or tech support doesn't exist any more. Would you install a cracked version if available?


All risk aside, from a moral standpoint, I think it's perfectly OK for someone to do that since they own a licensed copy of the software.


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## 3DC (Oct 16, 2021)

Fleer said:


> ^^^ This could provide a solution against piracy, charging (much) more for commercial use. Some devs do so by offering low cost edu licenses. Maybe ‘hobbyist’ versus ‘pro’ licensing would curtail piracy.


Another great example of turning piracy problem into huge business opportunity was from Epic Games. They literally demolished all competition by giving their very expensive game engine for free until you reach certain profits. They did it by building an eco system around the Unreal Engine. This of course didn't solve the piracy problem completely but boy do they make money from people other companies completely ignored.

In music world this could be solved with "Rent To Own" licence. You can buy expensive software trough easy monthly payments. You can already buy Serum, Pigments, V Collection, Ozone Advanced and other goodies in this way on Splice.com. Another great example is Composer Cloud. Easy monthly payment for their complete catalog. On top of that they have very affordable sales. No need for piracy or its reduced to absolute minimum.

Some companies adapted to piracy situation. They understand very well that some people don't have a lot of money to spend but they still have some money. Other still charge 500 - 1.000 USD while completely ignoring everyone bellow their price range.

Very shortsighted if you ask me.


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## charlieclouser (Oct 16, 2021)

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> I have a theory that devellopers might not be losing nearly as much money as we think because most poeple who use cracked software were never going to buy it in the 1st place because, a) they don't have the money. Or b) if the only way to get a copy was to pay for it they'd talk themselves out of it because they really don't want it that much after all. The thing is that it's so easy to download stuff so you get way more than you normally would. Imagine all the stuff you'd get if you could walk in a store and don't have to pay for anything. This is just a theory and pure speculation but i think there's truth to that. In the end, i think people that are actually potential costumers are those that are serious and they would rather pay for their software. And I'm writing this dressed up as a pirate so I'm very serious.


To a large extent, I think you're right. More so if you're dressed as a pirate.


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## musicmaker9000 (Oct 16, 2021)

3DC said:


> Another great example of turning piracy problem into huge business opportunity was from Epic Games. They literally demolished all competition by giving their very expensive game engine for free until you reach certain profits. They did it by building an eco system around the Unreal Engine. This of course didn't solve the piracy problem completely but boy do they make money from people other companies completely ignored.
> 
> In music world this could be solved with "Rent To Own" licence. You can buy expensive software trough easy monthly payments. You can already buy Serum, Pigments, V Collection, Ozone Advanced and other goodies in this way on Splice.com. Another great example is Composer Cloud. Easy monthly payment for their complete catalog. On top of that they have very affordable sales. No need for piracy or its reduced to absolute minimum.
> 
> ...


And then ironically piracy probably increased vastly when Epic Games later on started to pay game developers to keep games off steam


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## bill5 (Oct 16, 2021)

Polkasound said:


> The letter of the EULA says "don't reverse-engineer our software" but the spirit of the EULA says, "we don't care what you do to your own legitimately-purchased copy of our software behind closed doors as long as you're not modifying it to unlock unpaid content, redistributing it, or stealing code."


That's your (and his) interpretation...one the user is not entitled to make. Again, the creators/owners of those plugins wouldn't necessarily agree, and they are the only ones entitled to it. Based on that logic, a pirate could say "well the spirit of not pirating is so they don't lose money, but I wouldn't have bought it anyway, so they didn't lose anything, so it's OK." That game can be played all day long, and IMO it's hypocritical to condemn it in one way, then practice it in another.


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## uselessmind (Oct 16, 2021)

marclawsonmusic said:


> Bullshit.



Yep, indeed bullshit.
I once bought an upgrade to a plugin i liked a lot only to then find out the cp had changed from perfectly fine for me as a user to some bullshit other method.
Now i should have done more research but it didnt even cross my mind a dev would to this to his customers without making it clear.
So i did approach the dev for a solution. Well, their solution was to sell my license. At least they allow that, good on them.

Result is this:
I use a version that doesnt have that bullshit cp, took a few days to get that.
I learned about what else is out there from those sources, its indeed shocking.
I will not upgrade this software should the ever ever sell an upgrade.
I will in fact not buy anything else from that dev ever.
I try to use this plugin as little as possible as going forward with os updates etc its a dead end either way.
I still think about just selling it, forget about its special sound and be done with it.
The first thing i now research before software purchase is cp method and i simply support devs that put their customers first.

Now i dont have sympathy for people stealing software, samples, music etc and i dont want to be in the position those devs are in with piracy but those trends in the software industry are screwed up.

I recently read about a court case between a software Company the Belgian State where the CJEU seemed to rule that software can be decompiled and reconstructed to remove functions that prevent the intended use of a piece of software. Thats sounds awfully close to cracking to me given circumstances like that vintage Native Instruments software thing that got people upset.


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## 3DC (Oct 16, 2021)

musicmaker9000 said:


> And then ironically piracy probably increased vastly when Epic Games later on started to pay game developers to keep games off steam


Epic Games is fighting Apple, Google and Steam at the same time while still gaining profits and customers. I think they should step up the fight against Epic Games if they want to win this market share game. In the end Epic might fail but so far its actually wining while loosing tons of money.

Once UE5 is out powering new games its GAME OVER for all of them.


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## Zedcars (Oct 17, 2021)

3DC said:


> Another great example of turning piracy problem into huge business opportunity was from Epic Games. They literally demolished all competition by giving their very expensive game engine for free until you reach certain profits. They did it by building an eco system around the Unreal Engine. This of course didn't solve the piracy problem completely but boy do they make money from people other companies completely ignored.
> 
> In music world this could be solved with "Rent To Own" licence. You can buy expensive software trough easy monthly payments. You can already buy Serum, Pigments, V Collection, Ozone Advanced and other goodies in this way on Splice.com. Another great example is Composer Cloud. Easy monthly payment for their complete catalog. On top of that they have very affordable sales. No need for piracy or its reduced to absolute minimum.
> 
> ...


Subscriptions may deter a few ‘would-be’ pirates from going down that route, but the vast majority simply will not pay if they can get it for free.

Music subs are not really comparable since the use case are so different: ie music is almost entirely consumed on mobile devices, and if at home the last thing people want to do is fire up a VPN, track down the song/album on a torrent site, hope that it’s still being shared, download it (sometimes slowly depending on the number of leechers), unrar or unzip it, check for viruses, edit the file names, and transfer to your phone (which itself is a pain). Then you have the fact that most tracks can be found to stream on YouTube for free after watching a couple of skippable ads. I’d wager that music pirates tend to be of a certain demographic — 40 yo and above. Anyone younger grew up in the streaming era and couldn’t be arsed to pirate music. Just too much hassle.

Whereas with music software and sample libraries the model is very different: you have to jump through hoops whether you buy it from the vendor or you pirate. Neither one is much easier than the other. Sometimes the vendor actually make it harder to install with more hoops to jump through and more restrictions that the cracked version. That makes no sense. Making something as painless as possible to install and use is a big step to encourage legit use. I’m surprised very few vendors have made an effort in this area. In fact, some of the big devs still can’t get this right. I guess making this easy for the customer it’s just very hard for devs to do.

Also this complaint I hear that software and sample libraries are expensive is laughable. The cost to make your own music is crazy cheap compared to even just 10 years ago and it continues to get cheaper and cheaper while the quality is increasing. It’s never been cheaper. Anyone who says it’s expensive clearly has never lived through (or looked back on) the last 30 years and even beyond that in the 70s-80s when hardware synths were the cost of a small house!

There is so much legally free stuff available and really great very cheap stuff available. Look at what Spitfire/Christian Henson are doing with the free Labs, Pianobook and the free BBCSO version. Incredibly good quality for nought. This kind of thing lowers barriers to music making and makes kids or people with a low incomes much less likely to don an eye-patch and wear a parrot on their shoulders.


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## chocobitz825 (Oct 17, 2021)

Pirating these days is 100% motivated by a misguided interpretation of GAS. Like how people in hip hop want to pirate Omnisphere because somehow they think it’s a must-have for a hit song, even though they could do the same with a number of other free synths. Whatever you pirate, you do not need. 

Reverse engineering, on the other hand, is a legal headache. It’s easier to legally say you don’t support the process, but turn a blind eye, than it is to say you support it and then try and come back to stop every case that doesn’t fit within the realm of non-piracy.

Whatever it is, piracy sucks, and it’s the source of much of what makes things more expensive and less enjoyable for us all. If you hate copyright protection, well piracy did that. Discontinued products? Probably a bit of piracy there too. There’s no good justification for it that doesn’t lead to the idea that piracy contributed to the problem you’re trying to remedy with piracy.


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## Tralen (Oct 17, 2021)

In my country, 70% of families live under 300 dollars a month, and 25% of the population live under extreme poverty. Currently, there are 20 million people suffering from hunger.

My family comes from an indigenous village in the Amazon where the average income is close to 50 dollars a month. Last time I've been there, they had Linux installed at the local school, but some software was pirated.

The dentists that came by the river had software they needed to use, so the school had everything they needed installed. Tooth loss is a devastating problem in the village, and it became worse since government support was reduced. The current government is hostile to the indigenous population.


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## pulsedownloader (Oct 17, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Even though we don't have the equivalent of Steam for music software and sound libraries...


Yet...


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## Polkasound (Oct 17, 2021)

bill5 said:


> one the user is not entitled to make


By the letter of the EULA, you are correct... just like no one is entitled to drive 56 in a 55 zone.



bill5 said:


> "well the spirit of not pirating is so they don't lose money, but I wouldn't have bought it anyway, so they didn't lose anything, so it's OK."


But this is an example of a copyright violation, because downloading and using the pirated copy constitutes unauthorized distribution. Unauthorized distribution is what EULAs are designed to deter.

If you bought a copy of my latest album, burned a thousand CD copies, and put them all in a box in your basement where no one but you would ever see and enjoy them, what would I care? As long as those CDs stay in your possession, you're not violating anything or affecting me in any way.

But as soon as you sell one or give one a way, then it's another story, because someone is getting the value of my music without paying me -- the owner of the music.




bill5 said:


> That game can be played all day long, and IMO it's hypocritical to condemn it in one way, then practice it in another.


By the letter of the law, people who drive 1 MPH over the posted speed limit are hypocrites for shaking their fists at people who drive 30 MPH over the limit. But common sense is all that's needed to understand the folly of the hypocrisy. Both are technically moving violations, but only one is a threat.

EULAs are designed to deter the threats, like IP theft and unauthorized distribution, but in order to cover all the ways in which that can happen, the EULAs have to be written somewhat ambiguously and all-encompassing to be as concise as possible. When a EULA is followed to the letter exactly as written, there are no threats to the developer. But even when it is not followed to the letter, there still may be no threats to the developer.

I would never advise someone to outright disregard a particular developer's EULA. Rather, I would advise them to contact the developer for clarification. But generally speaking, if you want to do something as apparently harmless as driving 5 MPH over the limit, I have no problem with it.


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## charlieclouser (Oct 17, 2021)

Zedcars said:


> Subscriptions may deter a few ‘would-be’ pirates from going down that route, but the vast majority simply will not pay if they can get it for free.


All the painters and carpenters that were working at my house for six months have "hood sticks" - cracked Amazon Fire Sticks that get all the streaming channels so their toddlers can watch Disney Plus all day long. 

Hundred bucks.


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## thesteelydane (Oct 17, 2021)

uselessmind said:


> Yep, indeed bullshit.
> I once bought an upgrade to a plugin i liked a lot only to then find out the cp had changed from perfectly fine for me as a user to some bullshit other method.
> Now i should have done more research but it didnt even cross my mind a dev would to this to his customers without making it clear.
> So i did approach the dev for a solution. Well, their solution was to sell my license. At least they allow that, good on them.
> ...


The irony of this is copy protection exists because of piracy, not the other way around.


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## Zedcars (Oct 17, 2021)

I wonder how many people here use adblockers which are depriving publishers/content creators/authors etc of revenue. You are effectively taking something (the content) while circumventing the method of payment (the ads). Is this not theft also?


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## chocobitz825 (Oct 17, 2021)

Zedcars said:


> I wonder how many people here use adblockers which are depriving publishers/content creators/authors etc of revenue. You are effectively taking something (the content) while circumventing the method of payment (the ads). Is this not theft also?


That depends on if the site has you agree to endure the ads as a condition of use. Some sites are doing that lately. I don’t view those sites. If it’s a site of value, I’ll tolerate their ads and/or join their service.


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## INCIRIOS (Oct 17, 2021)

halfwalk said:


> If someone pirates your sample library, you haven't lost money. The musicians you hired don't lose money. The pirate isn't taking money out of your wallet. I think it's fallacious to equate an illegal download to a lost sale. It's not like stealing a physical good that the seller has to then replace.


Just FYI, when people pirate your library it happens similar to how it happens in the gaming world. A payment made with a stolen credit card that gets charged back later. Charge backs along with the download cost (regardless of some comments ive seen on this forum) do cost developers money. Often happening through VPNs, and from payments in places in the world with laws that make it inherently impractical to follow up with from a legal perspective, especially in the small world of sampling. So it does cost the developer. And the amount of it is insane, once you track the analytics of web traffic matching up with the day your library gets released on a warez site you realise just how big the problem is.

But think prevention is better than cure, so new tactics will be introduced in the future methinks.


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## Ross Sampson (Oct 17, 2021)

pulsedownloader said:


> Yet...


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## Lindon (Oct 17, 2021)

Okay lets talk about a couple of positions I've seen offered up here:

1. "People who use pirated software were never going to buy the product anyway.."

This is wrong, ask Urs Heckman. Over on the DSP forum at KVRAudio Urs kindly offers up his experience of writing software that attempts to defeat pirates. In every U-he product there are at least two different authorisation systems - the one that executes immediately, and one that waits for a specific day of the year. So the pirates hack the first of these and release the software, when the "named day" comes around if the above were true then those illegal users would discover their software no longer worked for them and begrudgingly give it up, but Urs tells us he gets a *significant* bump in sales on these "named days", which means that what is happening is people are using pirated software until its no longer working and only then do they buy the real-thing, they could always have afforded it, just they didn't want to pay. 

2. "Pirated software is just a try before you buy risk reduction strategy - people try using pirated software and if they like it then they buy"

This is wrong in my experience, so I know this first hand. Channel Robot (my company), like a range of other companys, have been offering software with simple copy protection and full functioning demos - we give you 9 sessions of 15 minutes each - so that's 2.5 hours to decide if you think the software is worth buying, plenty of risk-mitigation time we feel. Does this stop pirates? nope, not now and never has.


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## bill5 (Oct 17, 2021)

Polkasound said:


> By the letter of the EULA, you are correct... just like no one is entitled to drive 56 in a 55 zone.


The difference is it's commonly understood, or an "unwritten law," that driving 1 mph over the speed limit is acceptable by the people who made and enforce that law. No similar understanding across all creators of plugins exists that it's OK to reverse engineer and modify their creation. If you took a poll to ask, you'd no doubt get mixed responses.



> But generally speaking, if you want to do something as apparently harmless as driving 5 MPH over the limit, I have no problem with it.


But again, they or you or I have no right to apply our own personal interpretation of the EULA and do whatever WE consider to be "harmless." A pirate could say the same thing: I just made a copy I wouldn't have bought anyway, so it's harmless. If someone contacted the owner and got permission to do something, OK, but regardless, either one respects the EULA or not. Saying it's OK to blow it off one way but not another is applying a double standard.


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## bill5 (Oct 17, 2021)

Lindon said:


> Okay lets talk about a couple of positions I've seen offered up here:
> 
> 1. "People who use pirated software were never going to buy the product anyway.."
> 
> This is wrong, ask Urs Heckman.


That's one company and one example and hardly equates to all pirates. It's far from wrong, but the answer obviously varies. It's not always true either.




> 2. "Pirated software is just a try before you buy risk reduction strategy - people try using pirated software and if they like it then they buy"
> 
> This is wrong in my experience, so I know this first hand.


Again, you're trying to take one example and act like that means it's true in all cases, but it isn't. Undoubtedly some people pirate for exactly that reason; in fact, I think at least one or two on this thread have already said as much (not that they do, but had before...).


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## Fleer (Oct 17, 2021)

I have to applaud bill5’s logic for maintaining clarity in this thread.


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## bill5 (Oct 17, 2021)

Kind of you to say. My opinion is that, no more, no less. It's been an interesting discussion.


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## marclawsonmusic (Oct 17, 2021)

uselessmind said:


> Yep, indeed bullshit.
> ...


And, like your reply, all those arguments were just excuses and rationalizations. Here's an idea...

Rather than try to move the goalposts and argue that piracy is OK, how about you supporters just acknowledge that it's wrong, but you don't care and are going to do it anyway? It would take a bit more courage to say that, but it would take less energy than trying to gaslight the whole forum.



Fleer said:


> I have to applaud bill5’s logic for maintaining clarity in this thread.


He is great at counterattacking and debating others but I don't recall him offering his own argument. Some people just like to stir the pot.


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## Fleer (Oct 17, 2021)

Not so. His arguments are actually quite interesting. If we want to get out of this bloody mess, we can use all the help we can get. Only by looking at it from as many angles as possible will we have a chance. So I’m quite grateful for bill5’s reasoning.


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## uselessmind (Oct 17, 2021)

thesteelydane said:


> The irony of this is copy protection exists because of piracy, not the other way around.


True of course.
Looking at the various sample and plugindevs there seem to be many possible reactions to piracy, with their own consequences for everyone involved, including legit customers being dragged into it.

One might direct their frustration at the people using software or samples without buying a license.
But then legit customers dont purchase from pirates.
And there seem to be ways of dealing with all this that dont punish customers.

So now there is another way from my perspective as a customer for devs to differentiate themselves from their competitors, though one which both sides would gladly do away with i think.


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## uselessmind (Oct 17, 2021)

marclawsonmusic said:


> And, like your reply, all those arguments were just excuses and rationalizations. Here's an idea...
> 
> Rather than try to move the goalposts and argue that piracy is OK, how about you supporters just acknowledge that it's wrong, but you don't care and are going to do it anyway? It would take a bit more courage to say that, but it would take less energy than trying to gaslight the whole forum.



How about i say this hopefully clearly enough:
I think it is wrong to use any software, samples etc without a legit license, either purchased or given away by the dev / company in question.

If you really think my response to you was in favor of piracy (though i dont see why that would be) i kindly refer you to the sentence above and ask that you at least accept that i mean what i write.


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## marclawsonmusic (Oct 17, 2021)

uselessmind said:


> How about i say this hopefully clearly enough:
> I think it is wrong to use any software, samples etc without a legit license, either purchased or given away by the dev / company in question.
> 
> If you really think my response to you was in favor of piracy (though i dont see why that would be) i kindly refer you to the sentence above and ask that you at least accept that i mean what i write.


Fair enough. Although copy protection is often used as a rationale for piracy (as it has been in this thread).


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## Pier (Oct 17, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Yep. As long as you have a PayPal account, decent internet speeds, and the money, then the modern buying experience for software and sound libraries is so quick-n-easy-n-painless that piracy is waaayyy more hassle, and I'd bet that cracked software is a big vector for malware, miner-ware, etc.
> 
> Even though we don't have the equivalent of Steam for music software and sound libraries, it's still easy and fast to buy stuff legitimately.


It's definitely way easier than it used to be, but it would be great to have a single desktop app that would manage the downloads/updates/refunds/payment/demos.

I know it won't happen as big companies like NI, EastWest, etc, have invested a lot in their own solutions, but one can dream.


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## thesteelydane (Oct 17, 2021)

Pier said:


> It's definitely way easier than it used to be, but it would be great to have a single desktop app that would manage the downloads/updates/refunds/payment/demos.
> 
> I know it won't happen as big companies like NI, EastWest, etc, have invested a lot in their own solutions, but one can dream.


There’s a few sites that bring a lot of devs under one roof and give you loyalty points that you can spend. They are really bad for us small devs though as they all take a 40-50% commission. If you want to support small devs, always buy directly from them. It’s a few more mouse clicks yes, but costs you the same and it makes a HUGE difference to us.

But then again 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing and maybe those people would never have found my website anyway. Just saying, if you have a choice and want to support a small developer always buy direct from them.


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## Mistro (Oct 17, 2021)

I think once computers got in the hands of the general public in the late 90s, it created a massive access phenomena (anyone remember the AOL days lol). Human nature will always kick in. Just look at how people are behaving with smartphones and social media.

I remember way back when I wanted to get into 3D modeling when I was younger, 3DS Max was over $3000. No way I would afford that anytime soon. I didn't come from a financially well off situation. Then I saw 3DS Max at a computer show for $20. Not saying it was ok to do but I did buy a $20 copy (it stopped working after a while so that was $20 wasted). Did I feel entitled to have 3DS Max?....No. But it was accessible and I wasn't thinking about it in any ethical terms, just wanted to get my hands on something I could not afford at the time. I also saw Reason 2.5 for $20. That was my first commercial DAW I enjoyed better than Cakewalk but could never get any updated versions.

Those were the same days I just started driving and didn't appreciate the value of paying tickets on time. I was young and certain values did not kick in yet. This is why I'm not quick to judge anyone though I would not encourage such things today. What always bothered me was not being able to go to any official sites to get updates and being paranoid about if my software will continue to work after a while or looking at the people who sell cracked software like they was the "weed guy" hoping nothing happens to them so we can get the latest updates when the time came around. The guy who sold the cracked software got busted by the feds after a while so there goes that. I also had some situations where i was fighting ransomeware screens with my heart in my stomach looking on torrent sites. Not a cool experience pulling your PC out the socket in a panic lol.

It just feels good to have something you don't have to hide and know you are entitled to official updates and customer service. Having something to hide or worry about getting caught just increases stress on your mental health and a lack of confidence. So I learned to save up and budget for the things I want. It feels so much better.


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## Batwaffel (Oct 17, 2021)

Piracy is one of the main reasons I started my subreddit. The reality is that piracy has existed long before the internet and it will not stop any time soon. What we can collectively do though is to educate people on why it's a bad thing, how it really affects many companies and their families and make people realise that these companies are not massive mega-million dollar companies and that 95% of them are trying to pay their bills like everyone else and that making their products available for free actually does indeed hurt their bottom line.

One example I like to use of this is when Daniel James put out Chaos and how his sales were pretty much steady until the day it hit torrent sites and, in his words, his sales fell off a cliff at the same exact time.

My way of combating this while being able to help my developer friends was to provide people with a place they could find sales and find that it can indeed be more affordable than they think. Of course this won't work for everyone, especially people who are flat broke, but it's something and has had a great turnout the past going on 6 years.


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## thesteelydane (Oct 17, 2021)

Batwaffel said:


> Piracy is one of the main reasons I started my subreddit. The reality is that piracy has existed long before the internet and it will not stop any time soon. What we can collectively do though is to educate people on why it's a bad thing, how it really affects many companies and their families and make people realise that these companies are not massive mega-million dollar companies and that 95% of them are trying to pay their bills like everyone else and that making their products available for free actually does indeed hurt their bottom line.
> 
> One example I like to use of this is when Daniel James put out Chaos and how his sales were pretty much steady until the day it hit torrent sites and, in his words, his sales fell off a cliff at the same exact time.
> 
> My way of combating this while being able to help my developer friends was to provide people with a place they could find sales and find that it can indeed be more affordable than they think. Of course this won't work for everyone, especially people who are flat broke, but it's something and has had a great turnout the past going on 6 years.


And we are all grateful to you for that subreddit!


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## Nico5 (Oct 17, 2021)

Zedcars said:


> I wonder how many people here use adblockers which are depriving publishers/content creators/authors etc of revenue. You are effectively taking something (the content) while circumventing the method of payment (the ads). Is this not theft also?


Ad blocking is also a more complex subject because too many discussions intermingle two very different things: Ad blocking and cross-site tracking.

If your ad depends on cross site tracking, then it will be eliminated by tools that prevent cross site tracking.

If your ad doesn't depend on cross site tracking, a pure anti-tracking tool will not prevent it from being shown.

The big problem is that most websites show ads that depend on cross-site tracking. So arguably they are the authors of their own misfortune.

Count me amongst individuals who is totally fine with seeing ads, but is disgusted by cross site tracking.

p.s. I realize, there are others who are against seeing ads independently of cross site tracking.

p.p.s. For news publications, the argument could be made that tracking even on the same site is potentially evil, since you can probably figure out a lot of private stuff about your tracked readers. From political views to health issues and more. With a paper based news publication that wasn't really possible. On the other hand, a library has long been able to track the lending patterns of their readers - at least theoretically.


Deep irony alert: Subscribing to an online news publication, with the desire to pay them for their efforts, simultaneously enables very precise tracking. So in some way, by trying to be a good customer, you're actually getting screwed over on privacy. -- And that brings us full circle to good paying customers ending up sometimes getting punished by (some of the more draconian) copy-protection schemes out there.


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## bill5 (Oct 17, 2021)

marclawsonmusic said:


> And, like your reply, all those arguments were just excuses and rationalizations. Here's an idea...
> 
> Rather than try to move the goalposts and argue that piracy is OK, how about you supporters just acknowledge that it's wrong, but you don't care and are going to do it anyway?


Some don't consider it wrong, so there's nothing to acknowledge. I'm not saying that is or isn't a valid viewpoint, just an observation. Again there's this "my opinion and the wrong one" attitude. 



> He is great at counterattacking and debating others but I don't recall him offering his own argument. Some people just like to stir the pot.


And again. I'm not "counterattacking," just offering my points of view. I haven't attacked anyone...which frankly is more than you can say. 

I have no idea what "offering my own argument" even means. If you mean a solution, I think companies are already on the right track with online registrations, watermarking software, etc etc.



> Some people just like to stir the pot.


Speaking of pots, pot meet kettle. You're the one attacking people and making snarky remarks, not me.

And I wasn't aware simply stating one's opinion or daring to disagree with others was "stirring the pot."


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## marclawsonmusic (Oct 17, 2021)

bill5 said:


> What's "wrong" or "right" is subjective.


I will never have common ground with someone who thinks like this. I think stealing software is 'wrong'. If that's 'my opinion and the wrong one', so be it.



bill5 said:


> And again. I'm not "counterattacking," just offering my points of view. I haven't attacked anyone...which frankly is more than you can say.
> I have no idea what "offering my own argument" even means. If you mean a solution, I think companies are already on the right track with online registrations, watermarking software, etc etc.





bill5 said:


> And I wasn't aware simply stating one's opinion or daring to disagree with others was "stirring the pot."


You are effective at dismantling other people's arguments and pointing out their logical fallacies. You are also effective at offering 'what ifs'... without taking a concrete position of your own. That's what I meant by not offering an argument and 'stirring the pot'.

Look, I have nothing personal against you or even the poor guy I railed on for defending piracy earlier in the thread. I just don't like to see creative people get screwed over or robbed and that's what piracy does - to people on this forum. To people on this thread even.


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## chocobitz825 (Oct 17, 2021)

marclawsonmusic said:


> Fair enough. Although copy protection is often used as a rationale for piracy (as it has been in this thread).


Full circle!

Copy protection exists because of piracy. Piracy exists because of copy protection.


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## bill5 (Oct 17, 2021)

marclawsonmusic said:


> I will never have common ground with someone who thinks like this. I think stealing software is 'wrong'. If that's 'my opinion and the wrong one', so be it.


Key words: "I think" and "opinion." How is that not subjective? I'm not saying your opinion is right OR wrong per se...and as others have pointed out, it's not so cut and dry. Moral issues rarely are...



> You are effective at dismantling other people's arguments and pointing out their logical fallacies.


Thanks, I think. Whether or not they're fallacies depends on the specifics and again, subjective. God knows I don't have a lock on the truth.



> You are also effective at offering 'what ifs'... without taking a concrete position of your own. That's what I meant by not offering an argument and 'stirring the pot'.


Not sure what kind of "what ifs" you're referring to, but regardless, allow me to clarify: I don't promote piracy or think it's "OK" but I also don't condemn such people as the work of Satan. And how bad such things are I think is also nuanced depending on the specifics.



> Look, I have nothing personal against you or even the poor guy I railed on for defending piracy earlier in the thread. I just don't like to see creative people get screwed over or robbed and that's what piracy does - to people on this forum. To people on this thread even.


We agree there. I have nothing personal against me either.  No, I don't want to see anyone, creative or not, here or not, get screwed over or robbed.


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## musicmaker9000 (Oct 17, 2021)

bill5 said:


> I don't want to see anyone, creative or not, here or not, get screwed over or robbed.


Why? 
Because it's wrong ?


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## bill5 (Oct 17, 2021)

In my opinion, yes.


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## Polkasound (Oct 17, 2021)

bill5 said:


> But again, they or you or I have no right to apply our own personal interpretation of the EULA and do whatever WE consider to be "harmless." A pirate could say the same thing: I just made a copy I wouldn't have bought anyway, so it's harmless. If someone contacted the owner and got permission to do something, OK, but regardless, either one respects the EULA or not. Saying it's OK to blow it off one way but not another is applying a double standard.


I own a license for Cubase. I have it installed on two DAWs... one at home, and one at my studio which is 15 minutes away. I am the only person with access to the DAWs. I have one dongle for my license, and many times I forget to bring it with me. When I do that, I have to make a very unpleasant 30-minute round trip. I would gladly pay someone to clone my dongle. Yes, it would be a violation of the EULA, but my only reason for doing it would be to make using MY software license easier. I'm not engaged in unauthorized distribution. I just don't like having to make those round trips.

Someone with poor eyesight buys a legit copy of Kontakt, then cracks it to make the fonts larger. He is the only one who will use it. He's not going to distribute anything. He just wants to improve his version of Kontakt to make his life easier.

These are two examples of ways in which a broken EULA harms no one, but no developer is going to open a can of worms by writing a EULA that says, _"If you want to do some reverse engineering of your legally-purchased, licensed copy of our software in the privacy of your own home to aid you in your legitimate use of the software, well, as long as you're not unlocking unpaid content, stealing our code, or distributing or sharing anything, and as long as you purchase any upgrades we release that contain any modifications you've made, and as long as you understand you wave your right to service and upgrades, we don't see any harm in it. But for everyone else, reverse engineering is strictly prohibited." _

It's a hell of a lot easier to say, "YOU MAY NOT MODIFY OUR SOFTWARE". This blanket statement is not written to needlessly stifle how a legitimate owner uses his legitimate license in the privacy of his own home. It's written to aid in the prosecution of those who crack and distribute software.

Allowing an American flag to touch the floor is against the law. Let's say there's an old flag on the floor in the corner of your dusty attic, and no one but you knows its there. You're breaking the law, but what entity are you harming by doing so?

If you adhere to the letter of every EULA, that's great. I officially recommend everyone do that. There's no harm in driving exactly 55 MPH in a 55 MPH zone. But when you've been in the game for a long time, you come to understand that EULAs are written the way they are in order to deter widespread unauthorized distribution/piracy, just like speed limits are posted to deter only the fastest speeders.



bill5 said:


> A pirate could say the same thing: I just made a copy I wouldn't have bought anyway, so it's harmless.


The reason pirates use that excuse is because they're idiots. Seriously. It doesn't matter if they say they never would have paid for the software. If they chose to install and use the software without paying for it, then they have willingly engaged in unauthorized distribution. They have acquired the intellectual property of the developer without paying the developer for the permission to use it. This is the main thing EULAs aim to deter.


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## easyrider (Oct 17, 2021)

Polkasound said:


> I own a license for Cubase. I have it installed on two DAWs... one at home, and one at my studio which is 15 minutes away. I am the only person with access to the DAWs. I have one dongle for my license, and many times I forget to bring it with me. When I do that, I have to make a very unpleasant 30-minute round trip. I would gladly pay someone to clone my dongle. Yes, it would be a violation of the EULA, but my only reason for doing it would be to make using MY software license easier. I'm not engaged in unauthorized distribution. I just don't like having to make those round trips.
> 
> Someone with poor eyesight buys a legit copy of Kontakt, then cracks it to make the fonts larger. He is the only one who will use it. He's not going to distribute anything. He just wants to improve his version of Kontakt to make his life easier.
> 
> ...


Dude share your dongle over the internet.


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## Nico5 (Oct 17, 2021)

This thread could serve as a case study in observing our varying different personality types.

Those familiar with the Myers-Briggs way of looking at personality types will notice that some contributors to this thread seem to have a much stronger J type personality and others a much stronger P type personality.
When that happens, it's not surprising that arguments can get a bit heated. 

The following is a short excerpt from this page (I'm claiming "fair use" for educational purposes  )



> Judging and Perceiving​Judging and Perceiving preferences, within the context of personality types, refers to our attitude towards the external world, and how we live our lives on a day-to-day basis. People with the Judging preference want things to be neat, orderly and established. The Perceiving preference wants things to be flexible and spontaneous. Judgers want things settled, Perceivers want thing open-ended.
> 
> We are using Judging when we:
> 
> ...


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## Pier (Oct 17, 2021)

Zedcars said:


> I wonder how many people here use adblockers which are depriving publishers/content creators/authors etc of revenue. You are effectively taking something (the content) while circumventing the method of payment (the ads). Is this not theft also?


I agree, which is why I disable my ad blocker on sites I use frequently such VIC, Reddit, etc.

For Youtube I pay a subscription that remove ads and also gives money to creators.

There is this project called Coil that automatically gives micropayments to sites you visit. I paid the subscription for a while but so few sites have implemented the micropayments API that it was useless.

In general I do keep my ad blocker on because there's too much abuse from ad networks, behavior tracking, privacy, etc.


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## Polkasound (Oct 17, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Dude share your dongle over the internet.


That won't work for me, though, because I turn my PCs off when they're not in use.


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## korruptkey (Oct 17, 2021)

Polkasound said:


> That won't work for me, though, because I turn my PCs off when they're not in use.


Look into VirtualHere... it shares over usb over the lan and wan. I recently set this up and it's amazing. I have a powered usb hub connected to my router and all my dongles connected to it. Then I run virtualhere on my router (they support a ton of devices, but worst case is just get a low powered device like Raspberry Pi and make that a dedicated machine). Then whichever machine in my house, I can just remotely connect to it. This is also great as it keeps your dongles stationary... the constant plugging and unplugging is just an increasing risk to damage.


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## Cormast (Oct 18, 2021)

btw, interesting reading : "_The Hacker Ethic and the Spirit of the Information Age" 2001, Pekka Himanen._


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## Lindon (Oct 18, 2021)

bill5 said:


> That's one company and one example and hardly equates to all pirates. It's far from wrong, but the answer obviously varies. It's not always true either.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, you're trying to take one example and act like that means it's true in all cases, but it isn't. Undoubtedly some people pirate for exactly that reason; in fact, I think at least one or two on this thread have already said as much (not that they do, but had before...).


Hmm, I thought we'd dealt with this..... Yes you are right I am giving an example, in both cases, it would seem however for you to accept the position they demonstrate as valid would require me to give you more than one example - exactly how many examples are needed 2? 10? 200? 2,000? Are the zero example (opinion based) posts less or more valid than posts offering (at least) one example?

In the end all I can see you saying across a range of posts here is: "in your opinion" or "in that specific case" - which we can all take for granted is always going to be the case unless the poster can offer an axiom of some sort - so you are not actually moving the discussion forwards in any contributory way.


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## bill5 (Oct 18, 2021)

Lindon said:


> Hmm, I thought we'd dealt with this..... Yes you are right I am giving an example, in both cases, it would seem however for you to accept the position they demonstrate as valid would require me to give you more than one example - exactly how many examples are needed 2? 10? 200? 2,000?


I didn't say or imply it was invalid, nor did I have any specific number in mind, but clearly the more that are known, the more validity that position has. I simply pointed out that one example doesn't equate to being true across the board, as you implied.



> In the end all I can see you saying across a range of posts here is: "in your opinion" or "in that specific case"


Then you weren't reading very carefully.



> so you are not actually moving the discussion forwards in any contributory way.


I disagree and it appears at least a few others do as well, but whatever. I'm not even sure what you count as "moving the discussion forward," as if it needs to reach some goal or conclusion. It's a message board, which are largely about people stating their opinions and viewpoints on various topics.

But since I sense ad hominems and general snarkiness creeping in, as well as starting to go in circles, I'm done with this. Have fun!


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## Rtomproductions (Oct 18, 2021)

The only thing you can do is to continue doing the right thing. Don't worry about what other people do, or even if they get away with it; it's totally irrelevant to your own moral integrity.

I've invested far more $$ than that, and I sleep like a baby *regardless* of the knowledge that other people are pirating these libraries.


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## Mike Greene (Oct 18, 2021)

Faruh Al-Baghdadi said:


> I see there's a censorship on the website. Amazing.





Cormast said:


> Yes, my message have been removed. For no reason. THIS, is very disappointing.


The discussion here is interesting, but also long, so in the interest of keeping the thread from becoming longer than it needs to be with unnecessary clutter, we sometimes remove posts that aren't actually adding to the topic at hand. (In this case, riffing back and forth about an _"I want to speak to the piracy manager"_ joke. I'll grant that the joke is amusing, but sometimes jokes are called for, other times they are not.)

I understand some people might classify that as "censorship," but in discussions like this, especially in a thread that's already over 10 pages long, I believe most people would prefer the conversation stay on point, so they don't have to read 20 pages of posts to get 10 pages of actual content.


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## fakemaxwell (Oct 20, 2021)

Lindon said:


> 1. "People who use pirated software were never going to buy the product anyway.."
> 
> This is wrong, ask Urs Heckman. Over on the DSP forum at KVRAudio Urs kindly offers up his experience of writing software that attempts to defeat pirates.



The u-he method is (imo) the gold standard here. It works, it's unobtrusive to paying customers, and it ends up driving sales. If all copy protection was implemented as thoughtfully as u-he's this conversation would be less than a page long.


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