# Problem with getting client to pay - ideas?



## Synesthesia (Mar 10, 2007)

Hi all, I am having a huge problem getting a client to pay for two licences for usage on TV commercials. They requested a quote in January 2007, for usages for Jan 2006 and Jan 2007 (2 years) - and approved the cost.

The agency has been coming up with loads of stupid excuses as to why they haven'tpaid, the latest two being that they 'are still working out who I should invoice' and also that the client requires a government notarised document for 'transfer of a legal document from one territory to another' - although they decline to say what document needs notarising.

The ad agency is a huge multinational, but its the Russian office. The client is a huge multinational drug company, based in Europe. The total bill is under 4k GBP.

Obviously part of these costs should have been invoiced and paid at the start of 2006, but that doesn't seem to bother them.

I am reduced to considering legal action against the client - anyone have any ideas on either this action or alternatives?

Any thoughts gratefully considered!

Best

Paul


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## mathis (Mar 10, 2007)

Tell them that you will sell your claims to the Russian Mafia.


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## edafe96 (Mar 10, 2007)

http://www.moskau-inkasso.com

but I don´t know whether they work abroad


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## Synesthesia (Mar 11, 2007)

Hmm. Thanks for those very helpful suggestions!

As I am feeling more annoyed abnd less coy than I was last night I might as well out the guilty parties.

The agency is Saatchi and Saatchi. The client is Novartis Consumer Health.

Any suggestions folks before I try to go nuclear on this one? Thing is I could retain a lawyer on a conditional fee basis and they can basically charge the legal fees they like, so this would be a great easy case for some lawyer with experience in International Law to collect a fat 100k paycheck.

Cheers

Paul


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## lux (Mar 11, 2007)

I cant see why saatchi would get a legal issue for just 4k (i mean "just" for them).

They are probably waiting you for your lawyer's letter. And probably they have this as a unwritten rule those days for some internal reason, or just because local manager wants to show active counts....reasons are infinite.

Reading your story, and considering it from a non musical business point of view i think you have two chances: 1) you have some contact inside able to move things, so you can menace him of getting legal issues. 2) you dont have any contact able to take the decision then you can just use your lawyer. Actually if you billed them at early 2006 you dont have many alternatives. 

They think you can wait until you demonstrate them that you cant wait. 

I think once you get a little legal issue (like a letter of whatever) things could move

Luca


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## mathis (Mar 11, 2007)

I once learned that professionalism shows in reminder management. Really, these arrogant ad agencies just try it with everybody. If you don't make it clear from the first moment on that you will take every regular step to claim your money they won't take you serious.

Did they use your music in 2006 without asking? I don't knoe for sure but you could also well approach *their* client how come that they used your music and that you will take legal action. I could imagine that that would bring Saatchi on fire pretty fast.


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## Synesthesia (Mar 11, 2007)

mathis @ Sun Mar 11 said:


> I once learned that professionalism shows in reminder management. Really, these arrogant ad agencies just try it with everybody. If you don't make it clear from the first moment on that you will take every regular step to claim your money they won't take you serious.
> 
> Did they use your music in 2006 without asking? I don't knoe for sure but you could also well approach *their* client how come that they used your music and that you will take legal action. I could imagine that that would bring Saatchi on fire pretty fast.



They did use it without asking. First I heard was in 2007 Jan. The incredible thing is I have had this problem with this ad in Poland, Baltics, Czech, all over eastern europe. They always 'forget' to ask so I have no real way of knowing whether I am even being told about all the usages!

Its really tedious. I think I'm going to contact the head office of Novartis and ask them how this squares with their policy as detailed:

"Ethical business conduct - establish a high-integrity corporate culture based on trust, respect and compliance with legal regulations"

cheers,

Paul


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## Mike Greene (Mar 11, 2007)

The first thing I notice is it looks like you didn't make this deal until January of this year? Then it's only a month or two old invoice.

If that's the case, my advice is just be patient. And stay polite. If it's a big agency, you'll get paid eventually. I've had invoices go 6 months or more sometimes. It's annoying, but it's the way it is at times.



Synesthesia said:


> Mathis said:
> 
> 
> > Did they use your music in 2006 without asking? I don't knoe for sure but you could also well approach *their* client how come that they used your music and that you will take legal action. I could imagine that that would bring Saatchi on fire pretty fast.
> ...


Then if you've truly lost hope, then do what Mathis suggests. Write a letter directly to Novartis telling them you intend to sue _them_ for copyright infringement. I'm sure British law also has lots of extra penalties for "willful infringement." Here in the U.S., it would be up to $150,00 additional penalty . . . and ads are what bring the biggest penalties.

Don't mention you had a deal in place with the agency. (In fact, since you haven't been paid, I'd say the old deal is void and renegotiate and ream the agency for all I could get. They're lost as a client anyway.) Instead, just get Novartis scared so when they find out all you really want is peanuts, they'll pay you or lean on the agency to pay you just to minimize their risk of some big lawsuit.

But realize bridges will be burned if you do this. I'd give them at least another couple months.



Synesthesia @ Sun Mar 11 said:


> Thing is I could retain a lawyer on a conditional fee basis and they can basically charge the legal fees they like, so this would be a great easy case for some lawyer with experience in International Law to collect a fat 100k paycheck.


I can tell you from my own personal experience that law firms, unless they're tiny and desparate, will have no interest in this on a contingency basis. Even with willful infringement penalties, these cases are small potatoes. They want cases that are a million dollars or more.

There are firms that will do low dollar cases, but those are crank-em-out slip and fall or auto accident firms. You can't have those guys do this case for you. You need an IP (intellectual property) firm and they play in a different league. At least that was the case for me here in the U.S.


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## Synesthesia (Mar 11, 2007)

Thanks for your advice Mike. 

I'm used to agencies taking ages to pay, but i have been waiting two months now to **issue the invoice** - which is a situation that frankly beggars belief..

I will send the agency one last threatening email tomorrow, and then I will start dealing with Novartis directly as you suggested.

As I haven't even issued the invoice yet (as they wont give me an address to issue to) then my quote can easily be 'revised' upwards.

The thing that really p*sses me off is that I only have these real ballache problems with agencies in eastern europe and russia. They seem to think that they can just do what they like and operate outside all bounds of respectable business practice.

Oh well, I'll keep you updated how this progresses.

Cheers!

Paul


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Mar 11, 2007)

Paul: no e-mail, send a letter with A.R. (Avis de Reception - or signature request) AND send the same letter by normal mail. This latter one is legally accepted as a delivered letter in case the agency will not accept the registered letter and return it unsigned.

Make sure to add a Subject line like "Last reminder for overdue payment and final notice". Then give them 5 working days to pay and also note the ultimatum date.

This is all legally required before you can start any official action.

Be polite but also clear and self-assured about your next steps and outline them clearly, if possible with the name of a good legal office (I sometimes even look up a good name without contacting them). No "Best regards" but something much more official.

In Holland you also have to mention a word like "summation" (sommatie), or that you order or summon them to pay. Mind you, in Holland one reminder letter and one summation are legally required before you can transfer your claims to a legal person or company. A very strong point in your case is that there apparently never has been any complaint about your invoices.

I once lost 15.000 euro in a company going bankrupt and have learned the hard way. The next time I had a situation like this I immediately asked a laywer (actually a prosecutor here, a laywer cannot go to court) and he faxed a copy of of a legal request for bankruptcy to this client (a big publisher on the stock market). They were also in financial problems and went bankrupt within a few months, but I got my money within 3 day!

Faxes like that (legal documents) scare the hell out of the secretaries and lower management. But that may only apply when they already know about troubles in their company. In the case of your client this may not have any effect...

But don't do it by email! You CAN ofcourse also start again with phone calls, but you have to send them a very official letter with final terms and make sure you get a signature for the delivery.

And: go west young man :wink:


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## zonobono (Mar 11, 2007)

paul, i can see the novartis tower from our balcony.

just let me know if you need some help... =o /\~O =o 






8)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 11, 2007)

Maybe you could send her around to pick up the check?


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## bdr (Mar 19, 2007)

Hello.(Sorry if this is too long for anyone to read, but it's very cathartic for me!!)

I am an infrequent poster, just because of lack of time, but this is a great forum. I would like to throw my very sad story out there as the more situations you guys hear about hopefully the better prepared for things you will be. 

I live outside the US but got an email around July 2006 from a producer in the US asking about my availability for a low budget film. Once I found out there was some kind of budget ( a quite normal indie lo-budget amount) I agreed to do it., but wanted to try doing it over the 'net as I didn't really want to leave my young family for a long time. Anyhow we tried a little (and I learned a lot about video conferencing and streaming video) but it wasn't working, the director needed me more hands on. So I agreed to go over to the US at their cost(airfare, accommodation, and small per diem for essentials). One thing I did insist on was I wanted a contract in place immediately as I have been screwed befor, and that they would pay for the recording. No problem was the reply. 

So I went early September, return date 15 October. Anyhow, not to bore with details, the inexperienced director was very indecisive, but also obsessive compulsive and the most extreme micro-manger I've dealt with. So I would play cues that hadn't changed and they would sound different to him etc etc, it took a ridiculous amount of time just placating him. Not that he was nasty, he was very nice. 

Anyhow the 'production team' was very minimal, basically non existent, I had to constantly ask for my per diem, they got way behind on it, and the editing went on, and on, and on. And so did my cue revisions, in one case I wrote at least 15 variations on a scene that he just couldn't settle on. So we went way past the return date. We negotiated a weekly 'overtime' amount until I was finished. But there was still no contract. So my lawyer wrote one instead of them and sent it to their lawyer. I thought I would at least be finished early November, and had pre-booked a family holiday, which I ended missing.

The revisions continued, constant recuts/edits, no music editor so I spent half my time trying to fit old cues into new edits. I worked the hardest I have ever done on a film, including a couple of all nighters which I'm completely averse to, needing my beauty sleep as I do. Fortunately everyone loved the music.The recording session was booked for the first week of December. Naturally I was doing the orchestrating and copying also to try and save them money. And still the changes kept coming. And no contract. So I came to a situation where I was killing myself as it is to get stuff done, but constantly being told the contract is coming. I was too afraid of losing time if I said "I'm not doing any more until the contract is here', so I kept going. 

Anyhow, I have left out a huge amount of the organisational hassles I had to deal with, but on to the recording session. The producer, just as inexperienced as the director told me that when they had picture lock off finally(which wasn't), a few days before the recording, that she wanted to see all the orchestrations the next day(!), although I had only just finished scoring. Then I told them (with plenty of notice) I had to leave the US on a certain day(Friday of the recording week) as my visa was due to expire and I needed to be out of the country. I asked daily for details of my flight home. None forthcoming. 

The recording week was to be 1 day (Tuesday) recording, Wed, Thurs and part of Fri if needed mixing.I got a train to NYC for the recording. On the morning of my travel the producer told me that I was leaving the country on the Wednesday, 2 days before the Friday I had to leave (as it was cheaper than Friday), and the first day of mixing the music. I hit the roof saying that I had never worked with the people contracted to do the recording/mixing , and I needed to be around to make sure the cues sounded right. It was a blend of real and synth with some avant garde effects , some very subtle. She replied "well I spoke to many many experienced producers and in the VAST majority of cases the composer isn't there for the mix'. I just laughed, it was so idiotic, and then told her 'that is ridiculous, please name them, anyhow I'm head of music here and you didn't even ask me'. I told her that I insisted that I be there for the mix, and I would contribute to the extra cost. 

Then I got to NYC which was apparently very busy, so they got me a room at a hotel...where I had to climb 6 flights to get to my room. Then I had to move hotels 3 times that week. Also I was asking for details of my new flight so I could let my family know. I got to the session (Tuesday) , called my lawyer and said that I wanted a contract before I recorded anything. She ambushed the producer at the session who finally PROMISED to have it all settled before I left on the Friday. Then, as we are about to set up for the session, I see some instruments arriving that I hadn't asked for. The contractor (hired by the producers) had booked the wrong ensemble. I had to quickly reconfigure, and we almost got through everything. However, on a very important cue, the vision was out of sync with the music, although the chart was correct. The director freaked out a little bit but I suggested it was OK and we'll put it into place at the mix.

So then onto the mix(Wednesday), which actually went rather well considering. We move the cue into place, and I compared it to the approved demo version which was the same, but the director wasn't convinced. He wanted to recut. Apart from that, he approved every cue and mix. I kept asking for details of my return flight. None forthcoming. Finally on Friday, 2PM I got an email. This is the same day I'm supposed to be out of the country by midnight due to my visa. A 40+ hour flight (which should be about half that), beginning at JFK at 8PM that night, with 2 overnight layovers, no accommodation, and the first layover was in LA, which meant I wasn't going to be out of the country that night anyhow. I went ballistic and told them I was leaving that minute, I'd had it, went out, and got a cab to JFK. Fortunately, leaving for JFK at that time saved me, I got an earlier flight to LA, and caught the 11:55PM flight home.

This story is not over, I just need to do some work!! I'm sure you can all sense the upcoming problems.


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## mathis (Mar 20, 2007)

Oh my ... :shock:


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## Mike Greene (Mar 22, 2007)

My first thought is that you don't really need or want a contract at this point. Other than saying you'll get paid, there's nothing beneficial for you in a contract this late in the game. Having a contract still doesn't guarantee they will actually pay.

What's good for you is that since they DON'T have a contract, they don't technically have permission to use any of your music. Once that film gets played publicly, they will have infringed on your copyright and now you have leverage. Copyright infringement carries punitive penalties up to $150,000 for "willful infringement" along with your real damages (how much you should have been paid and your costs and grief) AND the judge can order them to pay your attorney fees if you win (in U.S. law, copyright cases are one of the few fields where loser pays the winner's attorney fees.)

So I would give them warning that you intend to take back your compositions and they need to immediately replace all your music or else they will be in violation of your copyrights. Doing this makes any uses by them of your music a "willful infringement."

If you're not afraid to up the ante and lie (good heavens, I personally would NEVER decieve a client to better my position, but I hear that other people do 0oD ) also tell them you're doing this because you got a gig with Warner Brothers for a reality show (or movie or whatever you could get them to believe) and they want you to use some of these tracks in the show. But Warner Brothers of course wants full ownership . . . you fill in the rest. The purpose of this is now you also have ficticious WB lawyers on your side.

One final thought: Every so often as you type, hit that Return key a couple times to make paragraph breaks. It makes long posts (great story, by the way) a lot easier to read.


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## Chrislight (Mar 22, 2007)

Mike Greene @ Thu Mar 22 said:


> One final thought: Every so often as you type, hit that Return key a couple times to make paragraph breaks. It makes long posts (great story, by the way) a lot easier to read.



I was going to suggest the same thing.  I think your story and Mike's solution could be valuable to our members, so I went ahead and took the liberty to break up your story into paragraphs so it is more easily read. 

What a story! >8o I hope everything works out for you.


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## mathis (Mar 22, 2007)

Claiming back your music sounds like a really great idea but I would be cautious with the Warner Brothers thing. Too easily unmasked and then you'd look like a really ridiculous guy. Claim back your music and just take every single legal step. Stop once and for all to charm them. They apparently don't want to work with you again anyway. For whatever reason which is totally unimportant.


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## bdr (Mar 22, 2007)

Return key? Where is that? Over

here?
Thanks.

Thanks for the info, esp. regarding copyright infringement. I had told them a few days back to pay me or else remove the music. I am expecting some more info today.


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## bdr (Mar 22, 2007)

After talking to the lawyer I am now left with the choices of accepting the lower amount and getting paid immediately, which I need financially, but which mean I get penalized for their mistakes, or telling them to pull the music and having a possibly drawn out fight.

An alternative that occured to me was to tell them that the amount they propose is OK, getting it then changing my mind when I get the contract and charge them for the extra work in January.

I'm going to think about it for a day.


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## John DeBorde (Mar 23, 2007)

yikes! what a painful story. I've more or less had all these things happen to me, but on a much smaller scale, and not all on one gig. Ouch!! It's the nightmare from hell composer gig! My version would be the cheesy after school special, but yours is the 4th of July Tentpole Blockbuster version.

I could really relate tho to you just wanting to do a good job, yet getting screwed due to the ineptitudes of your employers.

Please keep us informed as to how this turns out. And good luck! I hope you get paid. 

-John


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## Buckles (Mar 28, 2007)

Yuck... such tales of woe. Makes you want to rethink going into this industry!

I'm sorry to hear that you had to put up with the bullshit of incompetent employers bdr... hopefully you can get your money soon (as much as you can get, that is) and move on to something better and much more enjoyable!

Synesthesia... gotten paid yet for your usages? I got some music in the Epic Movie trailer late last year, and I only got the license payment for that very late Feb. I'm told this is pretty common, so I just went along with it. If you only put in your invoice in January, then I'd wait a wee bit longer before pursuing things... my 2 cents though... you gotta do what you gotta do.

-s


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## bdr (Apr 2, 2007)

thanks for the tea and sympathy all. I am waiting to hear back about a terrific gig and if I get it then the non-payers are going to feel my vengeance with a mighty hand (sorry just read the passover story last night...)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 2, 2007)

My instinct: take whatever money you can get now. They don't have the money to pay you what they promised originally, and the longer you wait the less money they'll have.

But make sure you don't sign anything with reduced terms.


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## Synesthesia (Apr 3, 2007)

Well, after an interesting few weeks in which I have sopken to Novartis' legal department to discuss 'wilful infringment' wheels at last started moving, I got supplier forms to sign and now my invoice is 'client side'.. 

I guess that means I should get paid within the next 10 days allowing for international funds transfer. :| 

We'll see!

Good luck with your situation Bdr.

Cheers!

Paul


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