# Health Care Reform



## Ashermusic (Mar 22, 2010)

While I am VERY pleased this has passed, I think it is important with this issue, and most others, we acknowledge that not everyone who reached a different conclusion is by definition stupid, venal, or ill motivated. Considering the government's track record it is not unreasonable for a person to be skeptical.

I realize this flies in the face of the contemporary zeitgeist but a little humility and charity toward those who disagree with us is a wise choice.


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## gsilbers (Mar 22, 2010)

Well, let's see what happens. The details are complex for everyone because it involes insurance , drugs companies, hospitals etc etc and some may know a lot about one thing but not the other side.


The only thing now is the individual mandate which many states are already suing against it.
Force people to get insurance might not fly well with many. How about homeless and the like.

And small business that have to get it for thoer employees, fine for some but in la there is a lot of one man companies that run in or out freelance and similar examples of how it will ve a burden pricewise for small biz.

W all that said I'm happy that it passed, rhe house at least, I wished it had the public option. 
But oh well, things like u can't get rejected for preexisting conditions is fine. And human! 

Tons of good stuff that's wasn't said about it.
Hope it passes seneate now.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 22, 2010)

I guess I did not do a good job naming this thread. I wanted it to be more about respect for people with dissenting views than the actual bill itself.

In American politics now there is too much demonizing of those who people disagree with that I think is unhealthy.


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## midphase (Mar 22, 2010)

My guess is that 2 years from now Americans will take all this for granted and won't remember a time before it (especially if there is a public option). This will be as commonplace as Social Security is today...which I believed when it was first proposed was just as controversial.


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## George Caplan (Mar 22, 2010)

all depends on how people feel about $1 trillion US over a 10 year period. will it get ousted by the gop one day? hard to say but its never been done before on a bill like this. will obama have a hard time at the mids? probably.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 22, 2010)

Actually, people who disagree with me really are stupid, venal, or ill motivated in this case.


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## midphase (Mar 22, 2010)

"all depends on how people feel about $1 trillion US over a 10 year period. will it get ousted by the gop one day? hard to say but its never been done before on a bill like this. will obama have a hard time at the mids? probably."


Don't let the media or misguided polls mislead you. I actually believe that this has just re-energized the party and I can see Obama's and the Democrats' approvals going up and not down. In November, Democrats will be able to appeal with more sincerity to the low and middle class and minorities who have been disproportionately affected by the increasing costs in health care. If they play their cards right (and don't do anything stupid in the meantime) I think they have the chance to not only hold their ground, but perhaps even gain a couple of seats!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 22, 2010)

It's highly likely that the Democrats will lose some seats, since the majority party almost always does. But it will be because the economy sucks, not because of this.

And certainly not because of the $1 trillion. That's all hype.


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## José Herring (Mar 22, 2010)

People are expecting losses for the Dems. 

I say we can't let that happen. The GOP is actively courting the Tea Party. We can't let these people have any voice whatsoever in our public life:

http://www.examiner.com/x-15870-Populis ... n-lawmaker


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## gsilbers (Mar 22, 2010)

yep, i think that deep down the tea party and republicans are just plain racist and thus making obama's life hell for no good reason just to fight on the biases they stand for. 

one simple example is the way the US collected debt... 
bush had 2 wars which he took a lot of money out from different places and did the 1st bail out. yes that was bush and republicans. but any teaprty rally or republican will tel you its all obama. no one remembers that when bush entered office there was no debt at all. 

now that the US is growing in diversity, a big but small group of middle america is fighting a loosing battle. teaparty, minutemen, replublicans etc they are arming themselves and fighting "ghosts" like socialism and other "keywords" that for them mean things that it really isnt there. 
health care reform for them means "kill babies" "death camps" and 
"illegals taking advantage of our money" which all of them couldn't be further from the truth.


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## Imzadi (Mar 22, 2010)

gsilbers @ Mon Mar 22 said:


> Well, let's see what happens. The details are complex for everyone because it involes insurance , drugs companies, hospitals etc etc and some may know a lot about one thing but not the other side.
> 
> 
> The only thing now is the individual mandate which many states are already suing against it.
> ...



Only businesses with 50 or more employees are required to provide healthcare for them.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 22, 2010)

gsilbers @ Mon Mar 22 said:


> yep, i think that deep down the tea party and republicans are just plain racist and thus making obama's life hell for no good reason just to fight on the biases they stand for.



i am no fan of the Tea Party, but I would not judge them all by a few morons and racists.


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## JohnG (Mar 22, 2010)

David Frum, George W. Bush's former speechwriter, described the bill's passage as "Waterloo" for the Republican Party, saying:

_Conservatives and Republicans today suffered their most crushing legislative defeat since the 1960s._

Later, he rhetorically asks whether the bill could have borne the stamp of Republican ideas:

_*...the gap between this plan and traditional Republican ideas is not very big.* The Obama plan has a broad family resemblance to Mitt Romney’s Massachusetts plan. It builds on ideas developed at the Heritage Foundation in the early 1990s that formed the basis for Republican counter-proposals to Clintoncare in 1993-1994.

Barack Obama badly wanted Republican votes for his plan. Could we have leveraged his desire to align the plan more closely with conservative views? To finance it without redistributive taxes on productive enterprise – without weighing so heavily on small business – without expanding Medicaid? Too late now. They are all the law._

He says it's a victory for Rush Limbaugh and his cohorts, and a huge loss for "regular" republicans:

_...today’s defeat for free-market economics and Republican values is a huge win for the conservative entertainment industry. Their listeners and viewers will now be even more enraged, even more frustrated, even more disappointed in everybody except the responsibility-free talkers on television and radio. For them, it’s mission accomplished. For the cause they purport to represent, it’s Waterloo all right: ours._

Full article: http://www.frumforum.com/waterloo


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## José Herring (Mar 22, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Mon Mar 22 said:


> gsilbers @ Mon Mar 22 said:
> 
> 
> > yep, i think that deep down the tea party and republicans are just plain racist and thus making obama's life hell for no good reason just to fight on the biases they stand for.
> ...



Not all of them of course not. But, you need to recognize the rise of an American hate group for what it is. This kind of group breads hatred pure and simple. It's the kind of group that starts to blame all it's problems on everybody else. They spew the same kind of talk that unfortunately I kind of grew up with. No jobs. Blame the illegal Mexicans. No money. Blame taxes even thouò¨¼   ÊYÐ¨¼   ÊYÑ¨¼   ÊYÒ¨¼   ÊYÓ¨¼   ÊYÔ¨¼   ÊYÕ¨¼   ÊYÖ¨¼   ÊY×¨¼   ÊYØ¨¼   ÊYÙ¨¼   ÊYÚ¨¼   ÊYÛ¨¼   ÊYÜ¨¼   ÊYÝ¨¼   ÊYÞ¨¼   ÊYß¨¼   ÊYà¨¼   ÊYá¨¼   ÊYâ¨¼   ÊYã¨¼   ÊYä¨¼   ÊYå¨¼   ÊYæ¨¼   ÊYç¨¼   ÊYè¨¼   ÊYé¨¼   ÊYê¨¼   ÊYë¨¼   ÊYì¨¼   ÊYí¨¼   ÊYî¨¼   ÊYï¨¼   ÊYð¨¼   ÊYñ¨¼   ÊYò¨¼   ÊYó¨¼   ÊYô¨¼   ÊYõ¨¼   ÊYö¨¼   ÊY÷¨¼   ÊYø¨¼   ÊYù¨¼   ÊYú¨¼   ÊYû¨¼   ÊYü¨¼   ÊYý¨¼   ÊYþ¨¼   ÊYÿ¨¼   ÊZ ¨¼   ÊZ¨¼   ÊZ¨¼   ÊZ¨¼   ÊZ¨¼   ÊZ¨¼   ÊZ¨¼   ÊZ¨¼   ÊZ¨¼   ÊZ	¨¼   ÊZ
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## _taylor (Mar 22, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Mon Mar 22 said:


> a few morons



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pilG7PCV ... popt00us12


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## rgames (Mar 22, 2010)

The health care debate doesn't end with this vote - there are many years left to see how it all plays out. I still think people are missing the boat: nobody is against health care for more Americans. The problem is that we can't afford it.

I'd love for everyone to have a 10,000 sq. ft house and a Maserati. Just because we pass a law that requires that doesn't mean our economy can actually support it.

The problem with health care is that it's expensive and I don't see any part of this bill that's going to help with that problem (witness Obama's deal with the pharmaceutical companies as part of the bill). Medicare and social security already eat up the vast majority of our tax dollars and we're adding to that debt with this bill without considering how to go about addressing the cost issue.

Sure, some predictions show that the bill will reduce spending. But when have those predictions ever been correct? According to the Clinton-era predictions, we should be living under huge budget surpluses right now. How good were those predictions?

Nobody knows what the future will bring. All we know for sure is that if we further obligate the federal government, we will spend more tax dollars than we otherwise would have.



gsilbers @ Mon Mar 22 said:


> no one remembers that when bush entered office there was no debt at all.


Ugh. Another example of the triumph of the liberal spin machine over fact. Can't even recall how many times I've corrected people on this one - deficit is not the same as debt. Bush inherited a huge debt. Period.

rgames


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## Patrick de Caumette (Mar 22, 2010)

RGames wrote:***I still think people are missing the boat: nobody is against health care for more Americans. The problem is that we can't afford it.***

Since when republicans really care if the nation can't afford spending?!

What craks me up is that as long as we are spending billions upon billions of $ for , wars, weapons research that turns out to be completely defective, fake rebuilding of an invaded country, no one in the republican party seems to complain. :twisted: 

For once in a long, long time, we are spending money on the people of this country and all hell breaks loose... (o) 

It must be that for once, it is gonna be a little more difficult for those corrupt sons of [email protected]#$%ches to fill their pockets the way they have been with the war pretext...

This is so transparent, it really is pathetic.


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## Jack Weaver (Mar 22, 2010)

Jay,

You should have known better by now....

What were you thinking?

.


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## rgames (Mar 22, 2010)

Patrick de Caumette @ Mon Mar 22 said:


> What craks me up is that as long as we are spending billions upon billions of $ for , wars, weapons research that turns out to be completely defective, fake rebuilding of an invaded country, no one in the republican party seems to complain. :twisted:



The difference is that the spending you describe is temporary - Congress always has the option to quit spending immediately on wars, weapons, rebuilding, etc. if we run out of cash.

This bill now obligates the government forever (or until it's repealed). Huge difference.

You're comparing expenditures that are decided year-to-year vs. one that lasts for a long time. If you run low on cash, you can always cancel your magazine subscriptions. But you can't just quit paying your mortage - you're obligated to pay for the long term. Wars and weapons are like the subscription: temporary and flexible. The health care bill is like the mortgage: long-term and inflexible.

Magazine subscriptions don't cause bankruptcy. Mortgages do.

rgames


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## midphase (Mar 22, 2010)

"The difference is that the spending you describe is temporary - Congress always has the option to quit spending immediately on wars, weapons, rebuilding, etc. if we run out of cash. '

But they don't, and they haven't. The US maintains 40% of the world's military power....40%!

Want to know how much China (supposedly our biggest potential enemy) maintains? Any guesses? 8%, that's right...the country that everyone is afraid of has less than a 4th the military power of the USA.

US military spending has been consistently a huge drain on the national expenditures, and it's not going away regardless how you try to paint it into a "here now gone tomorrow" type of budget item.

Under Republican rule, the military budget has always gone up, while social services and so called "peace time" expenditures get taken down.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 22, 2010)

> i am no fan of the Tea Party, but I would not judge them all by a few morons and racists



I don't. They're all morons and racists.


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## midphase (Mar 22, 2010)

I agree with Nick. Anyone who has a modicum of intelligence would immediately detach themselves from that type of movement.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 22, 2010)

The idea that we can't afford healthcare is 100% bullshit hype. We can afford it easily. It also contains cost-cutting measures carefully chosen to make it pay for itself over time.

But the reason I was perfectly serious when I said that people who oppose this are stupid, venal, and ill-motivated is that every Republican hates it. Why? It's exactly what they endorsed when baseball Mitt Romney came up with it four years ago, after all.

No, they hate it because they want to regain power. If Obama is for it, they're against it. Their strategy is to oppose everything no matter how good it is for the country.

And this time they're going to be hoisted by their own petards, the bastards. I'm not at a fan of David Frum by any means, but he's absolutely right that the Republican party has allowed itself to be taken over by total asses. That goes all the way up to the very top: Mitch McConnel and Jim Boner, who didn't even stop lying to the country yesterday in his speech on national TV.

Frum is right. And this is the petard that's blowing up in the Republican party's faces:

"No illusions please: This bill will not be repealed. Even if Republicans scored a 1994 style landslide in November, how many votes could we muster to re-open the “doughnut hole” and charge seniors more for prescription drugs? How many votes to re-allow insurers to rescind policies when they discover a pre-existing condition? How many votes to banish 25 year olds from their parents’ insurance coverage? And even if the votes were there – would President Obama sign such a repeal?"

There's more good stuff than that in the bill too.

Yesterday was a great day for our country, and a much-needed nail in the coffin of Ronald Iran Contra Reagan. Yes we really do need big government solutions to huge problems. Deregulating amoral corporations and cutting taxes are not solutions to every problem.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 22, 2010)

By the way, I'm thoroughly disgusted by most of the Democratic party too. But even the Congressman I thought was the biggest villain - Stupak - came through in the end.

And Nancy Pelosi is my hero.


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## rgames (Mar 22, 2010)

midphase @ Mon Mar 22 said:


> But they don't, and they haven't.



Correct. The point is that they do have the option. If the sh!t really hits the fan and we can't raise money, Congress still has the option to quit spending there because it's an annual expense. With this bill, we don't have that option because we're locked in forever.



> US military spending has been consistently a huge drain on the national expenditures



Also correct. Of course, medicare and social security are much larger drains, to which we now add this health care bill.

Defense spending is cyclical - we spend more during wartime and less during peacetime, so we have time to restore the balance sheet. Health care, medicare, and social security spending increase every year - that's the problem.

rgames


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## JohnG (Mar 22, 2010)

So, Richard, a trillion dollars -- the Iraq war estimate or thereabouts -- you are characterising as a "magazine subscription" that can be canceled? So let's cancel it! No? We can't? We have a sacred duty...to something not defined?

Congress can cancel the health reform any time, the same way they could cancel the war. Probably they won't but they could. They could repeal Medicare but probably won't do that either.

Ironic to hear all the tsk-tsk about fiscal responsibility after eight years of spending like a drunken sailor under Bush. 

The GAO says health care reform will reduce the deficit. By contrast, the only way to reduce the deficit from Bush's war would have been -- to pretend it's not part of the budget by taking it off books.

Oops. Did that.

At least health care is largely domestic spending. If you hate any spending, I understand that, so let's cut the military budget right now and cancel the many cold-war-reminiscent giant weapons programs we still have going. How about decomissioning some missiles? We still have tons.

Personally I would rather pay taxes so people can get their medicine than so that some of our own people -- our bravest, most dedicated, in many cases -- can kill other people who offer no credible threat.

You're absolutely right right to finger social security and medicare / medicaid as massively bigger problems than the "regular" deficit, about 26 trillion dollars short, according to the trust fund reports. 

So let's pull our shorts up, Congress, and fix those problems (not as impossible, practically, as infeasible, politically). In the mean time, the health care bill that is going to decrease the deficit seems like a pretty good deal.


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## midphase (Mar 22, 2010)

Richard,

I strongly believe that we have a moral obligation as a civilized country and world leader to do whatever it takes to make sure that we take care of our citizens, especially the ones who can't take care of themselves.

I think this simple point is so easy to get lost in the political hype, but it's critical that we all make sacrifices for the greater good. If those sacrifices mean more taxes, or less pork spending I say bring it on.

This is not a matter of "we can't afford it", this is a matter of "we must afford it"

This is not a magazine subscription in your analogy...this is medications when you're ill. You can't decide to do without it, it's simply not an option.

To me, not having a public option is inexcusable in this country, and I don't believe for a second that if push came to shove we couldn't make it happen.

You know as well as I that the opposition to the public option and health reform in general is not motivated by this nation's economics but by the private sector who stands to lose their monopoly.


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## George Caplan (Mar 23, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Mar 22 said:


> It's highly likely that the Democrats will lose some seats, since the majority party almost always does. But it will be because the economy sucks, not because of this.
> 
> And certainly not because of the $1 trillion. That's all hype.



i have no interest in partisan politics having lived in the uk for 23 years and married to an english girl. so i know about hype through british politics believe me and how this translates economically. economics is always the reason people vote. they may pretend to themselves its for a higher reason but its not. watch this uk space. i actually because of domicile laws cant vote in uk elections so i like a lot of US residents sit and watch this upcoming uk event with interest.
but back to the $1trill. youre right that its hype in terms of the numbers. if we go ahead full out on hc reform it will almost inevitably be a lot more than that. somebody here said recently that the insurance companies are colored by the recent ponzi effect. hes almost certainly right about that. what you always get when large scale bills are passed in the states is a further split of the people and thats the unfortunate part of all this.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 23, 2010)

Take the money from the rich (100K and more) by raising their taxes . They don't like it? They can move to one of those tax-havens in the Caribbean. 

Cut the defense budget in half, and put a quarter of that into education. How many of the Tea-totters have more than a 9th-grade education? Take the other quarter and use it to help out home-owners whose houses are underwater (their house is worth less than their mortgage), and use it also on adult education, to get people trained in green technology skills.

Sue Glenn Beck and Faux News in general for hate propaganda.

Reduce the influence of all lobbyists on govt policy.

Investigate Haliburton and other shady corporations. Oh, and while you're at it, prosecute Bush and co. for crimes against humanity (hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis).

Separate the church from the state by making it illegal to use terms like 'The will of God' in official speeches by high-ranking members of the adminstration in power.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 23, 2010)

Jack Weaver @ Mon Mar 22 said:


> Jay,
> 
> You should have known better by now....
> 
> ...



:lol:


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## Ashermusic (Mar 23, 2010)

midphase @ Mon Mar 22 said:


> I agree with Nick. Anyone who has a modicum of intelligence would immediately detach themselves from that type of movement.



Fine, forget about the Tea Party guys for now. I am friendly with 3 orthopedic surgeons who are Republicans and can give you very intelligent arguments as to why it will not work and why an incremental "fix it" approach is better. I argue "pass it and tweak it."

I do not agree with them and but where I make good points they concede it. They do not agree with me and where they make good points Ido the same with them. 

Time will tell. But once again, they are neither stupid, venal, or poorly motivated and there are a lot of people on both sides of this argument, like RG Ames here, who fit this description.


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## rgames (Mar 23, 2010)

midphase @ Tue Mar 23 said:


> I strongly believe that we have a moral obligation as a civilized country and world leader to do whatever it takes to make sure that we take care of our citizens, especially the ones who can't take care of themselves.



I agree and support universal health care. However, the problem with health care is that it's so friggin' expensive and we're still not addressing that issue. This bill is pure politics so the democrats can claim a victory.

Again, simply passing a law doesn't create the economy that supports the spending obligations.

rgames


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 23, 2010)

There's tons of money in the US. Get it from the rich and the big corporations through taxes.

Stupid, stupid Bush tax cuts to the very rich... :roll:


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## Patrick de Caumette (Mar 23, 2010)

***I agree and support universal health care. However, the problem with health care is that it's so friggin' expensive and we're still not addressing that issue. This bill is pure politics so the democrats can claim a victory. 
***

This argument is really weak, sorry.
Military spending is ridiculously high and has always been.
The argument you're making that it can be stopped at any time is very dishonest.
It's never happened, ever.
Since the miltary industrial complex came into existence, during the 2nd WW, and for good reasons, it has never stopped development. 
Finding new enemies has been the policy of our rulers for as long as we can remember. Some were real (Hitler, Stalin), some were not (Vietnam, Irak)
But the constant has been the incredible amount of money pocketed by those that call the shots.

"So friggin' expensive"
Who are you kidding?
These type of arguments work when force feeding them to an uneducated constituency.
Please don't insult our intelligence and try taking your debate to a higher level if you can...

And by the way, passing this bill was not "pure politics" since all that tried to pass such a bill in the past had failed and compromised their political clout as a result.
Pure politics is getting all individual members of a party to say no. I don't know what you think, but when all voices are silenced and imposed a line of conduct, I can't help but associate that pattern with totalitarian regimes.
You're with us or you're against us.
The rich vs the poor, the North vs the South, the Aryan race vs...the rest of the world. Si senior, como no?

But really, in the end it's all about *MONEY*....
o-[][]-o


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## JohnG (Mar 23, 2010)

There are plenty of arguments against the health care bill, but the cost argument is actually -- wrong.

The GAO has said the health care bill will reduce the deficit, it's actually more fiscally responsible than NOT passing it.

But even if that were not the case, where was all this fiscal responsibility under Bush? 

Bush passed the prescription drug act for seniors -- enormously expensive;

Bush elected to fight a war in Iraq -- enormously expensive; 

Bush cut taxes very substantially -- enormously expensive. 

How much opposition did he face from the suddenly-reborn fiscal conservatives?


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## José Herring (Mar 23, 2010)

Maybe I'm a soft heart liberal, but if the government is going to collect taxes from me I'd much rather they spend it helping some working mother have health care for her child than to spend it on war. You know not that some wars aren't worth fighting but it just seems a shame that the right has no problem with government spending when it comes to blowing away middle easterners, but all of a sudden has a big problem with the government spending to help people if they should need it when they get sick in this country.

Ultimately in the end most conservative thought is just a jumbled mass of incoherent data that just has no way of ever being practiced in real life. As has been proven time and time again. That people are still listening to the conservative arguments befuddles the mind.

Jose


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 23, 2010)

People have answered your last post for me, Jay. So what if you know three orthopedic surgeons who aren't stupid yet for some reason are still Republican. And so what if they can make intelligent arguments about things that may not work in this bill.

The point is that the Republicans in our legislature opposed this JUST TO OPPOSE IT. It's absolutely not true that they were excluded from the party; Obama tried to include them, but it was a total waste of time.

And the argument that we should have scrapped the whole thing - which is way better than what we have now - is simply not intelligent or reasoned. You know the history - this started with Eisenhower! We are not going to get anything better by doing nothing, and even your orthopedic surgeons (who are considered the neanderthals of surgery by other surgeons, by the way  ) know that.

Richard, if you think this is just a photo-op you're out of your mind. This is historic legislation on a couple of levels, as I posted before.


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## midphase (Mar 23, 2010)

Yeah, let the Republicans get their panties in a bunch. I think the more upset and outraged they get, the more they look like idiots.

While I have plenty of issues with the Democratic party, I think the Republicans have elevated hypocrisy, corruption and partisanship to a whole other level.

The fact that McCain said not to expect any Republican cooperation or support on anything for the rest of the year is truly indicative that this party's gotta go.

I think it's time for a major overhaul of this country's political system, starting with the Republican party (but not limited to that). 

Funny how conservatives and the tea idiots should align themselves with guys like Ron Paul and even Dennis Kusinich (sp)....yet come election time they all make damn sure that neither one of those guys gets close to a debate.


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## midphase (Mar 23, 2010)

BTW, very informative FAQ about the Health reform here:

http://www.slate.com/id/2248560/


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## Christian Marcussen (Mar 23, 2010)

midphase @ Tue Mar 23 said:


> BTW, very informative FAQ about the Health reform here:
> 
> http://www.slate.com/id/2248560/



Thanks


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 23, 2010)

> The fact that McCain said not to expect any Republican cooperation or support on anything for the rest of the year is truly indicative that this party's gotta go.



Who expected Republican cooperation anyway?


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## David A (Mar 23, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQ7LcplfkgY

Healthcare reform may spell the beginning of a United Soviet States of America. In Britain healthcare is free. The new bill means everyone is legally obliged to fork out of their own pockets-a new covert form of taxation without representation.

I strongly suggest Americans remain Libertarian and keep their eyes open to attempts at undermining their sovreignty and economy. Whether Republican or Democrat-the same vested financial interests control both sides.

The bill may cause bankrupcy of the US. Medicare and Medicare were bad enough...but this is a devastating blow.

I strongly suggest books by Robert Kiyosaki which have warned about this since 2000, as well as listening to Jim Rogers, Marc Faber, Max Keiser, Gerald Celente, Bob Chapman, and other economists and investors who are critical of government-as well as forsee consequences. Pay no attention to the web of lies spun by politicians like Obama, Tim Geithner, Ben Bernanke, John Mccain, Clinton, et al. Its NOT about Right or Left. Its Wall Street Vs. Main Street!


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## JohnG (Mar 23, 2010)

Taxation maybe, but since the health care bill was enacted by elected representatives, it's not taxation without representation, by definition.

Medicare and Medicaid and Social Security represent a $26 trillion deficit, combined. This health care bill reduces the deficit. So if you are concerned about "bankruptcy," which while technically impossible I know what you mean, it's those entitlements that need some tweaking. It's actually fairly fixable but it will involve means testing, a higher (older) retirement age, and a few other things that no politician wants to mess with.

You lose credibility when your information has easily-spotted factual errors and you're just warning darkly of some general yet vague apocalypse. Don't get me wrong, it's creepy when Goldman Sachs gets 100 cents on the dollar and we are all paying for it.


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## midphase (Mar 23, 2010)

I think if we listened to all those "doom and gloom" scenarios, nothing would ever get done except the power of the private sector would keep growing more and more while people would get poorer and poorer.

If we had listened to what detractors have said the health reform would do, we'd still have slavery, no social security, no work safety standards, no minimum wage, no child labor protection and blacks and whites still wouldn't be able to get married.

What David A (and the many other tea partiers or so called libertarians) are showing is merely fear of change and nothing more....irrational fear that is.


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## Marius Masalar (Mar 23, 2010)

Some levity for the thread:

http://i.imgur.com/590Ev.png


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## Studio E (Mar 23, 2010)

You know Nick, I'm starting to get the feeling that you dont like the Republican party. Can this be right? Hope I'm not jumping to conclusions. :mrgreen: 

I keep wanting to chime in but seriously, you're all saying what I'm thinking anyway and you are probably articulating it better than I could anyway.

To summarize; Yay healthcare reform! Booo Tea-baggers!


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## Dave Connor (Mar 23, 2010)

We have needed Health Care reform for a long time. This was a very tortured way of getting there and it's still foggy (to me anyway.) One thing that's very clear which to me (and is a bad omen) is the IRS being so involved. Who wants more of these guys in their lives? And why is the involvement of that notorious institution coming out just now?

Only in America folks.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Mar 23, 2010)

"Healthcare reform may spell the beginning of a United Soviet States of America"

That will be the day!! (o) 

Another great argument for sure. 
Healthcare isn't free anywhere. Not in England, not in France, not anywhere.
People pay taxes to support it, and in most cases, it generates deficit.

But if I have a choice, I'll choose taxes towards health care and free education, rather than for the military industrial complex and for insanely rich bankers...

Nice car BTW /\~O


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## SvK (Mar 23, 2010)

Well I think it's great! What's next?

GoBama!


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## chimuelo (Mar 23, 2010)

Guys like me have been paying lots of cash for insurance and right when my son goes to college in 4 years I will have some extra money, so of course I like this.
Afterall, the feds are lucky folks like me who watched our property value drop 60% and taxes climb up 10% aren't on their doorstep.
I am really glad we are concentrating on the domestic issues.
Here's something that has always been an American eyesore.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=w ... uIwaTEpzBg

These are just the ones we know about too.
I understand we played an important role in re building the Pacific and Europe after WWII, and Americans should always be proud of that.
I also understand why Russia had to be dismantled too, I am also very proud of that as it led to the re unification of Germany and freed many Eastern Europeans as well as Russians.
Europe, Japan and Korea are more than capable of taking care of themselves financially and militarily. 
The USA is the only nation with worldwide Miltary bases, and IMHO that shows a desire to be imperialistic.
This needs to change.
A nation that invests in its own peoples education, and welfare is the most Humane move I can think of.
I hope my son can at least benfit from such a society.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 23, 2010)

We agree about that, chimuelo. Time to shut them down.

Have you read any of Chalmers Johnson's books?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 23, 2010)

Studio E - yes, I think that about sums it up. 

And I like our president, despite having some criticisms. It's great having someone tackle big problem again.

Dave: the reason is that we have huge income inequality in our country and the tax burden has been shifting down down down since Ronald Reagan. This bill shifts it up again a little.

There was an interesting article about that today on NYTimes.com:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/24/busin ... dt.html?hp


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## midphase (Mar 23, 2010)

"Only in America folks."

I think that phrase exemplifies the general insularity of American people are their overall ignorance of the way the rest of the World functions.


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## chimuelo (Mar 24, 2010)

Yes I have Nick.
Blowback is a good read and it lets you know just how nasty the real world can be.
Nobody despises war more than a soldier, and nobody can write with the emotion of a veteran, it has to be experienced. I should read more of his stuff, thanks.

Midphase, you are correct about some Americans being Insulated.That comes from not being blessed with the proper education. 60% of the USA is well educated and upper middle class. Most are Bi Lingual and well aware of overseas trends since they had the proper education and don't rely on the government or corporate controlled media for their world views. Hopefully you can come into contact with more of them instead of the less educated types you seem to be familiar with.
I doubt you'll find them in Tijuana or Rosarita. The Bahamas, Virgin Islands and places like that where the food and drink isn't free is usually a good start.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Mar 24, 2010)

"You know not that some wars aren't worth fighting but it just seems a shame that the right has no problem with government spending when it comes to blowing away middle easterners, but all of a sudden has a big problem with the government spending to help people if they should need it when they get sick in this country."

I"m on the healthcare boat, trust me. This bill is probably the ONLY way I will be able to get healthcare while being self-employed.

However, the main argument is that this is one of those steps to where the government gains even more control. It's not the spending, it's the fact that the government is going to handle healthcare and the CLAIMS for people under government healthcare. 

What does that mean? There won't be a board of directors and doctors making the decisions on care, but rather a government employee. which probably won't even be close to a doctor. Point is the government is handling this, that's what freaks a lot of people out.

Most are worried this is another step toward socialism. Why is that bad? Because America was meant to avoid it.

Right now for me, I'm on the fence. I have to see how this all pans out. Making healthcare mandatory? Not sure if that's the right choice.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 24, 2010)

I doubt one Congressperson read this bill in its entirety before voting on it.

I am totally in favor of both comprehensive healthcare reform and universal coverage, but I have no idea what the bill just passed says. Is this really the best way to legislate?


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## midphase (Mar 24, 2010)

"However, the main argument is that this is one of those steps to where the government gains even more control. It's not the spending, it's the fact that the government is going to handle healthcare and the CLAIMS for people under government healthcare.

What does that mean? There won't be a board of directors and doctors making the decisions on care, but rather a government employee. which probably won't even be close to a doctor. Point is the government is handling this, that's what freaks a lot of people out."

I'm really confused by people's reasoning and fears on this one. Right now, the doctor is not making the decisions either...it's an insurance employee which is being directed by upper managers. Perhaps this is naive of me, but I'd rather have a government employee than an insurance employee make that decision. 


"Most are worried this is another step toward socialism. Why is that bad? Because America was meant to avoid it."

Was America meant to avoid it? Do we even know what socialism is and why it's so bad? I'm just asking. Show me the word "capitalism" in the declaration of independence or any other document from the original founding fathers and maybe I'll agree with you. Look, most people who throw around the "S" word...don't even know what it means. How many have even bothered reading the Wikipedia definition of it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

"Socialists generally share the view that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital and derives its wealth through a system of exploitation. This in turn creates an unequal society, that fails to provide equal opportunities for everyone to maximise their potential,[6] and does not utilise technology and resources to their maximum potential nor in the intò©Ö   Êª$©Ö   Êª%©Ö   Êª&©Ö   Êª'©Ö   Êª(©Ö   Êª)©Ö   Êª*©Ö   Êª+©×   Êª,©×   Êª-©×   Êª.©×   Êª/©×   Êª0©×   Êª1©×   Êª2©×   Êª3©×   Êª4©×   Êª5©×   Êª6©×   Êª7©×   Êª8©×   Êª9©×   Êª:©×   Êª;©×   Êª<©×   Êª=©×   Êª>©×   Êª?©×   Êª@©×   ÊªA©×   ÊªB©×   ÊªC©×   ÊªD©×   ÊªE©×   ÊªF©×   ÊªG©×   ÊªH©×   ÊªI©×   ÊªJ©×   ÊªK©×   ÊªL©×   ÊªM©×   ÊªN©×   ÊªO©×   ÊªP©×   ÊªQ©×   ÊªR©×   ÊªS©×   ÊªT©×   ÊªU©×   ÊªV©×   ÊªW©×   ÊªX©×   ÊªY©Ø   ÊªZ©Ø   Êª[©Ø   Êª\©Ø   Êª]©Ø   Êª^©Ø   Êª_©Ø   Êª`©Ø   Êªa©Ø   Êªb©Ø   Êªc©Ø   Êªd©Ø   Êªe©Ø   Êªf©Ø   Êªg©Ø   Êªh©Ø   Êªi©Ø   Êªj©Ø   Êªk©Ø   Êªl©Ø   Êªm©Ø   Êªn©Ø   Êªo©Ø   Êªp©Ø   Êªq©Ø   Êªr©Ø   Êªs©Ø   Êªt©Ø   Êªu©Ø   Êªv©Ø   Êªw©Ø   Êªx©Ø   Êªy©Ø   Êªz©Ø   Êª{©Ø   Êª|©Ø   Êª}©Ø   Êª~©Ø   Êª©Ø   Êª€©Ø   Êª©Ø   Êª‚©Ø   Êªƒ©Ø   Êª„©Ø   Êª…©Ø   Êª†©Ø   Êª‡©Ø   Êªˆ©Ø   Êª‰©Ø   ÊªŠ©Ø   Êª‹©Ø   ÊªŒ©Ø   Êª©Ø   ÊªŽ©Ø   Êª©Ø   Êª©Ø   Êª‘©Ø   Êª’©Ø   Êª“              ò©Ø   Êª•©Ø   Êª–©Ø   Êª—©Ø   Êª˜©Ø   Êª™©Ù   Êªš©Ù   Êª›©Ù   Êªœ©Ù   Êª©Ù   Êªž©Ù   ÊªŸ©Ù   Êª ©Ù   Êª¡©Ù   Êª¢©Ù   Êª£©Ù


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## Dave Connor (Mar 24, 2010)

midphase @ Tue Mar 23 said:


> "Only in America folks."
> 
> I think that phrase exemplifies the general insularity of American people are their overall ignorance of the way the rest of the World functions.



Actually that statement is scientific and factual in the extreme. Only in America do you have the IRS. It's a catch phrase that American's use to criticize the country for it's foibles and idiosyncrasies. But you didn't take it that way so in your terms, this is an ignorance on your part. But I won't assume your entire country thinks like you. You really think you have 300 million people figured out?


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## Studio E (Mar 24, 2010)

"I'm really confused by people's reasoning and fears on this one. Right now, the doctor is not making the decisions either...it's an insurance employee which is being directed by upper managers. Perhaps this is naive of me, but I'd rather have a government employee than an insurance employee make that decision."

+100! How do people not get this ?! And to reinforce the point, the insurance employee has to answer to share holders who seek to profit by providing less product for more money. To a further degree, there have been former insurance company employees, some of which were doctors, who have come forward to say that they were given huge financial incentives to deny claims and that their medical expertise was used against the patients best interests. Some of these employees were bonused to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars. Watch these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QwX_soZ1GI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoqpPwvUoP0


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## Jack Weaver (Mar 24, 2010)

> I'd rather have a government employee than an insurance eò©ì   Ê­°©ì   Ê­±©ì   Ê­²©ì   Ê­³©ì   Ê­´©ì   Ê­µ©í   Ê­¶©í   Ê­·©í   Ê­¸©í   Ê­¹©í   Ê­º©í   Ê­»©í   Ê­¼©í   Ê­½©í   Ê­¾©í   Ê­¿©í   Ê­À©í   Ê­Á©í   Ê­Â©í   Ê­Ã©í   Ê­Ä©í   Ê­Å©í   Ê­Æ©í   Ê­Ç©í   Ê­È©í   Ê­É©í   Ê­Ê©í   Ê­Ë©í   Ê­Ì©í   Ê­Í©í   Ê­Î©í   Ê­Ï©í   Ê­Ð©í   Ê­Ñ©í   Ê­Ò©í   Ê­Ó©í   Ê­Ô©í   Ê­Õ©í   Ê­Ö©í   Ê­×©í   Ê­Ø©í   Ê­Ù©í   Ê­Ú©í   Ê­Û©í   Ê­Ü©í   Ê­Ý©í   Ê­Þ©í   Ê­ß©í   Ê­à©í   Ê­á©í   Ê­â©í   Ê­ã©í   Ê­ä©í   Ê­å©í   Ê­æ©í   Ê­ç©í   Ê­è©í   Ê­é©í   Ê­ê©í   Ê­ë©í   Ê­ì©í


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## José Herring (Mar 24, 2010)

Jack Weaver @ Wed Mar 24 said:


> > I'd rather have a government employee than an insurance employee make that decision.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No, no, no. No where from what I've read of the bill is there even an attempt at a government take over of the health care industry. This bill actually just abolishes the abusive practice of the industry which as it stood is a very unregulated unfair industry that up until recently was exempt from the antitrust laws that all other business must abide by.

It maybe goes a little too far in requiring that everybody must have health insurance, but everybody must have car insurance in all states so I hardly see a difference.

As far as socialism this isn't it. Socialism is the economic system in which the government takes control of all the major means of production and wealth. We are no where near that in this country.

In theory I do believe in the more Libertarian (not conservative) view of government not involved in anything private, but in practice that viewpoint of America just hasn't worked out.

Capitalism is a brutal system. No where in the constitution does it say that this country is even a capitalist country. All the --isms, Capitalism, Socialism, Communism are just pure crap imo. People confuse capitalism with free enterprise. They are not the same. Capitalism in its purist form is a bankers dream. It's the practice of money making money for money's sake without any real recourse for the production and exchange of goods and services. Look at what Capitalism has done to this country. Almost everything you want to get you need to run to the bank for the money. It's turned every citizen of this great nation and this nation itself into a nation fully, totally and fundamentally owned by bankers. I don't know one person save for the utterly rich that isn't in debt to some bank somewhere. Then it completely crushes you if you don't play along with their game. Owing a bank is actually not any freedom. If you think you're free try not paying your mortgage for a few months. The banks will ruin your life. In the case of insurance the idea that they can drop you, raise your premiums or deny you coverage when you are sick is utterly and totally unacceptable. And, you have no recourse because they can't be brought to any kind of justice.

Your conservative darling Mitt Romney came up with a similar system in Mass. So I don't know what the so called conservatives are complaining about. It's called fair practice. And, don't delude yourself for even one second that somehow market forces will eventually evolve some fair system. It won't. The deck is stacked and it's stacked against the citizens of this country.

So, we have a government for the people of the people and by the people. The people by 53% majority elected Obama. He's less in the pocket of special interest than any other president we've had since Roosevelt. And, he's doing much of the same thing. He's tilting the balance of society away from the money interest that control it and back to the people.

Let's not forget that this bill isn't a single payer government run health care. Republicans want to paint it as that but this is no Clintoncare bill. It's much different. And, many of the older Republicans actually wanted the newer Republicans to work on this bill with the Pres. But, the group of wankers that make up the Republican party today are just mean spirited. I've never seen a display of just outright meanness that is being displayed by that party. The only one I like is Scott Brown and now he's hated by conservatives. Good for him. 

But I don't expect that people so blinded by the current conservative movement will think of anything but negative things to say about anything this president does. But if you look at it objectively there's nothing in this bill that even hints at socialism. Nothing. There's no government official making health care decisions, deciding who's going to live or die, nothing like it.


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## midphase (Mar 24, 2010)

Well stated Jose.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 24, 2010)

So now the GOP senators are refusing to work after 2pm. Unbelievable!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/2 ... 11639.html


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 24, 2010)

No government employee is going to make the decisions. Instead we have a mandate that everyone be insured by private insurance companies; that's the only way to cover people with preexisting conditions. I prefer the former, but this is the best we could do (thanks to that C U Next Tuesday Joe Lieberman).

The insurance companies will have to pay out 80 or 85% of what they take in, which means they're regulated like a public utility.


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## chimuelo (Mar 24, 2010)

Very True.
I had visions of a Government employee like we see at the Airpoprt ( highly trained and unemployable in the private sector ) but that won't happen actually. Although it is fun to poke at Uncle Sams prepostorous utopian programs.


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## José Herring (Mar 24, 2010)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Wed Mar 24 said:


> So now the GOP senators are refusing to work after 2pm. Unbelievable!
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/2 ... 11639.html




Front page of The Weekly Standard:


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## midphase (Mar 24, 2010)

This is nothing more than 4th grade BS. Why do voters keep re-electing these guys?

As for the record, I'm pretty nauseated at Meg Whitman here in California...she's coming across to me as a major "C"

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_14741213


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## José Herring (Mar 24, 2010)

Let the terror begin.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/2 ... 11874.html

I fear that there's going to be a lot worse coming from these guys.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 24, 2010)

Jose,

Sad but not surprising. With the hate and lies that are broadcast on Faux News, it's only a matter of time before brainwashed simpletons do really evil things.

Kays,

How pathetic that it comes down to money, used to dominate the airwaves. Then again, the model for this comes is Italy's Berlusconi.


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## midphase (Mar 24, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ik4f1dR ... re=related

Only in America! (right?)


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## midphase (Mar 24, 2010)

Ned, 

I'm with you on Berlusconi, I find him to be a disgusting individual and I've been waiting decades for the Italian population to wake up. Laziness definitely abounds world-wide.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 24, 2010)

OMG, I just read some of the posts on this blog. Guys, this is out of control, seriously. I wonder what will happen when these people get back in power! Wackos of Mass Destruction? I might have to move to the other side of the planet...

http://rightwingnews.com/


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## chimuelo (Mar 24, 2010)

This is sure to be a fun 7 months running up to the mid term election.
Next week a bunch of movie stars, Joe the Bummer and Scare A Palin are all coming to Harry Reids Chateau in Searchlight, Nevada.
I have recieved notices from the various Unions I belong to that we can go and yell at them as they yell at Harry......This is nonsense. I have better things to do than get involved with these " grassroots " staged events from the " left " and the " right."
Middle Class Americans do not have time for these Dog & Pony shows. Beside we have the best actors in the world in DC who are sure to be giving speeches as they stumble reading their scripts.
I think the local Stagehands and SAG should take their props that Celine used for her 40 x 62" Screen sidefills and set it up down in Searchlight and play the movie Nailin' Palin. The actress is way fine just in case you've never seen the flick.
Have 4 x Crown 8000's and 16 x JBL longthrow cabinets to drown out their cheesy Megaphones or little Peavey PA system with the old Spunge sparkled Kustom cabinets...................... o-[][]-o


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## midphase (Mar 24, 2010)

Good news from the polls (if you believe polls)

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington ... able_N.htm


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Mar 24, 2010)

"I'm really confused by people's reasoning and fears on this one. Right now, the doctor is not making the decisions either...it's an insurance employee which is being directed by upper managers. Perhaps this is naive of me, but I'd rather have a government employee than an insurance employee make that decision." 

While that is true within the insurance company, the actual decision that is made regarding healthcare is the attending in the hospital. The hospital overall can choose to ignore the insurance company, and provide care anyway in extreme circumstances. Hopefully the government can and will allow the same thing to happen.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 24, 2010)

The government has nothing to do with it.

@ Jack Weaver: FWIW the last three times I went to the DMV, the people there couldn't have been nicer or more helpful - and that includes the one in Culver City and the one in Reseda.

Actually there was one toilethead in Reseda (we brought a copy of my daughter's birth certificate instead of the original when she went to take the test for her learner's permit). But then I insisted we talk to someone else, who turned out to be incredibly helpful, and he worked around the strict rules.

So I don't buy your argument on the grounds you raise. A public option or better yet single-payer system would have been *way* better. And I don't buy the ideology that amoral corporations are better to deal with than government institutions as a matter of course.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 24, 2010)

Palin driving some to grab their rifle?

http://www.adn.com/2010/03/24/1197471/palins-firearms-themed-rhetoric.html (http://www.adn.com/2010/03/24/1197471/p ... toric.html)


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## José Herring (Mar 24, 2010)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Wed Mar 24 said:


> Palin driving some to grab their rifle?
> 
> http://www.adn.com/2010/03/24/1197471/palins-firearms-themed-rhetoric.html (http://www.adn.com/2010/03/24/1197471/p ... toric.html)



Well it's a little tough to take her seriously now that she's joined the likes of the Goslings. I hope she has fun doing "The Real Wasila". Maybe she'll invite octomom over for an episode or two. :roll:


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## midphase (Mar 24, 2010)

Forget Palin, now it looks like some conservatives would like for Liz Cheney to consider running....oh boy!

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/washington-whispers/2009/05/22/conservatives-liz-cheney-should-run-for-office.html (http://www.usnews.com/blogs/washington- ... ffice.html)


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 24, 2010)

Check out this recent poll (as shown on MSNBC's Countdown). The Hitler and Antichrist answers are insane:


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## Ed (Mar 24, 2010)

Ned: 

lol I would love to know how many call themselves evangelical Christians.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 24, 2010)

> Well it's a little tough to take her seriously now that she's joined the likes of the Goslings



Before that it was easy, though.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 25, 2010)

By the way, this is a good article on what's happening with the student loans. It seems hard to argue with on practical grounds.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/26/us/po ... ns.html?hp


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## d-dmusic (Mar 25, 2010)

Being a Canuck, I have to say our health care system up here is pretty good. I have no complaints really. When I need to see my family physician with something like a bad cold or flu, I make an appointment and can usually see the Doc within the next day or so. If it's a physical within a week at the most. Yes, specialists can take some time. MRI's and such can take time unless it is an urgent matter. My wife has had chronic nausea and it took three weeks to get an MRI to rule out any tumors etc...

So, we have our "system" up here that the U.S. had a hard look at, I'm sure. Yes, we pay for it through our taxes. Our taxes are higher, but, U.S. citizens are now *forced* to pay for their own health care insurance, to the insurance co. vultures (who are loving this btw), who will try and squeeze as much money out of you as they can....and then will try and get out of paying for anything and everything that they can get out of paying for. _"Oh, I'm sorry that is not covered, Oh ! I'm sorry, there is a cap on this or that......line 395 of page 256 of your policy, in fine print, clearly states that......" Oye...yoy.... :roll: _


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 25, 2010)

Krugman:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/26/opini ... ugman.html


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