# When is my ban going to be lifted???



## Mike Greene (Aug 9, 2022)

_NOTE - The main purpose of this post is so I can save time by sending a link of it to people requesting reinstatement. It may also be of general interest, but it obviously doesn't apply to 99% of the people here._

I've been banning a lot of members lately, with an admittedly quick trigger. Ideally, I would be more patient, have a private conversation, etc., but honestly, that hasn't been very successful. So now the procedure is I'll delete an annoying/offending post, then if it happens again, I'll make the decision to pull the plug. It's all pretty quick, and unlike before, we do this quietly now, with no public post about it, so there's less drama.

There's a "Reason for banning" field that the user will see when they attempt to log back on, so I'll usually say something along the lines of, _"Lets give this a few days, then I might lift the ban."_ That particular line is the reason for this post, as I usually _intend_ to lift the ban in a few days, but alas, the emails I often get are not very encouraging that there will be much change. Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking for groveling or ass-kissing, but it would be helpful to see some indication that the member "gets it," without me having to further spell it out. We wouldn't want to lift a ban unless things were going to get better, right?

So if all I get is an email saying, _"Hey, it's been three days, so let me back on!"_, then I'm not feeling assured that the underlying problem is solved, so do I (or we as a community) really want to bring the member back? Especially in most cases where there's already been a pattern of this? Bear in mind, these bannings are done because the offending behavior is annoying to the general membership. Petty arguments, or repetitive update requests, or general dickishness are not things people come here for.

The forum is already busier than many of us would like, and becoming increasingly unwieldy, so it's an _"Is the forum better overall with or without this member?"_ decision. I won't go so far as to say _"thinning the herd"_ is a goal, but if a particular impala is the type of jokester who thinks it would be fun to walk over and piss on the lion's face, well ... sometimes the herd thins itself.

Anyway, if there's no contrition in the _"Hey, let me back on!"_ request, then it falls to _me_ to to take the next step and say, _"Okay, we can lift the ban, but you understand that you've been annoying lately, right?"_ Which invariably means I'm going to be pulled into a debate about what's annoying/dickish/whatever and what isn't. And then _I'm_ doing a bunch of work, all so someone who pisses on lion's faces can get back on the forum.

A more patient admin might go through that process, but people familiar with the forum's history will know that I didn't buy VI-C because I had a lifelong dream of running a forum. Rather, I bought it because it needed help and I was in a unique position to step in. (The "unique position" being that I had Frederick's trust and I could afford the price.)

The upside of me taking over is no more fundraisers, no more email ads, etc. The downside (at least this particular downside) is that I'm not blessed with a lot of free time. Mind you, I try to stay on top of important things and I take a lot of pride in the forum. But for less important things (reinstating members, for instance), they don't just get pushed to the back burner, they get pushed waaayyyy to the back burner. I'm juggling Realitone, my studio, the forum, my family, and I still get the occasional composing gig. I consider myself very fortunate for all that, but the downside is that my time gets allocated into _"Things I need to do *now*"_ and _"That pile of things I'll *eventually* get to."_ Harsh, I know, but that's the reality.

I do feel bad to ignore banned people. I really do, but unless they're quick and easy (is it really so hard to simply write, _"Sorry Mike, I was being a dick when I responded to MemberX"_?), then along with all the other emails and tasks that are on the back burner, it will be a while before I get to them.


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## tressie5 (Aug 9, 2022)

They should hire you to work at KVR. Oy! That place is a cesspool of vitriol.


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## Crowe (Aug 9, 2022)

tressie5 said:


> They should hire you to work at KVR. Oy! That place is a cesspool of vitriol.


Ain't nobody got time for *that.*


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Aug 9, 2022)

If a specific forum thread contains drama and I feel the urge to contribute, I’ve taught myself to click “Ignore Thread“ instead. Then it disappears - and out of sight, out of mind.

Same with users where I feel I’m better off without seeing their posts.

An entire forum section can be ignored thankfully (looking at you, Drama Zone and Political section!)

Passing along the stuff above in case it can help others


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## jamwerks (Aug 9, 2022)

Jerks should be banned !! Makes it a better place for all.


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## Kent (Aug 9, 2022)

jamwerks said:


> Jerks should be banned !! Makes it a better place for all.


I read this as 'werks should be jammed'


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## jazzman7 (Aug 9, 2022)

No complaints from this end of the peanut gallery!


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## Trash Panda (Aug 9, 2022)

There's been lots of bannings lately? Is all the action in the forums that don't show up under the Latest Posts feed or something?


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## rrichard63 (Aug 9, 2022)

Mike Greene said:


> ... I take a lot of pride in the forum.


As well you should!


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## HCMarkus (Aug 9, 2022)

Funny, I was just saying to myself that it seems some folks are getting a bit vitriolic in their posts these days. Completely get and respect your perspective and approach, Mike; it is entirely appropriate. Thanks for helping to keep things civil around here!


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## Nico5 (Aug 9, 2022)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> I’ve taught myself to click “Ignore Thread“ ...
> ... Same with users where I feel I’m better off without seeing their posts.


indeed!

I only wish, these could be single click operations

EDIT - CORRECTION: Actually ignoring a user is possible via one click: Hover over the avatar on the left of the post and an ignore button shows up. Single click! Just with threads it seems to take two clicks.


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## Kony (Aug 9, 2022)

Mike Greene said:


> I take a lot of pride in the forum


I think you've done an amazing job in transforming this forum into a more civilised and respectful space. I was a bit cynical about some decisions a few years back but over time it's become apparent how your decisions have benefited the forum.


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## jcrosby (Aug 9, 2022)

Kent said:


> I read this as 'werks should be jammed'


Dyslexics Untie !!


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## EgM (Aug 9, 2022)

You're doing a great job @Mike Greene don't change a thing 

I remember in the late 90s I was managing an IRC Efnet channel of over 300 people with tons of bots, I never wanna manage bans again lol


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## bvaughn0402 (Aug 9, 2022)

I love this place (my wallet doesn't though ...)

I appreciate @Mike Greene and all who are on here posting. Unfortunately, 1 "bad apple" can often feel like 100's. 

I appreciate ALL of the vendors that stick it out here and weather those "bad apples". There are a LOT of us here who appreciate it.

And I'm getting to the point that I'm starting to make more decisions to purchase from people who do stick it out here.


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## PaulieDC (Aug 9, 2022)

Mike Greene said:


> _NOTE - The main purpose of this post is so I can save time by sending a link of it to people requesting reinstatement. It may also be of general interest, but it obviously doesn't apply to 99% of the people here._
> 
> We've been banning a lot of members lately, with an admittedly quick trigger. Ideally, we would be more patient, have a private conversation, etc., but honestly, that hasn't been very successful. So now the procedure is we'll delete an annoying/offending post, then if it happens again, I'll make the decision to pull the plug. It's all pretty quick, and unlike before, we do this quietly now, with no public post about it, so there's less drama.
> 
> ...


Um... er... ahem... you saved the forum. We wouldn't have this forum if you didn't save it. You can manage it however you like, and personally I appreciate the way you DO because I like a decently nice environment which most us of know we have. This post of yours reveals to us that the nice environment takes effort and time on your part, more than we probably realized. Thank you for that. I try to be courteous at all times, and I've not always been successful but I'll at least make amends with the person I did that to. If we all did that, your job would be a little bit easier!

Oh, and there have been a few times where someone new hopped on here with a real self-elevated entitled attitude (usually using "Bruh" in their wording), and I've leaped on them like a Rat Terrier that hasn't eaten in three days. Respectfully of course. Hope that's ok...


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## PaulieDC (Aug 9, 2022)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> ... I’ve taught myself to click “Ignore Thread“ instead. Then it disappears - and out of sight, out of mind.
> 
> Same with users where I feel I’m better off without seeing their posts...


That is definitely helpful. Ultimately it's better to take out the trash then to kill the flies, but that concept is a lot easier to say than do, so having management tools is nice on here.


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## NuNativs (Aug 9, 2022)

Beware those who post anything on the Republican side of the political persuasion, you will be banned stat. Best strategy, is to stay out of politics, focus only on musical topics. Think twice before posting if you want to remain. It's unfortunate, but it's the reality.


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## 3DC (Aug 9, 2022)

NuNativs said:


> Best strategy, is to stay out of politics, focus only on musical topics. Think twice before posting if you want to remain.


I used to post heated opinions and Mike would quite rightfully delete some of these posts. Fortunately I was never banned for those that went too far. Looking back I can see now any political opinion, right or wrong, hurts this forum, you and me. They are total waste of time. 

This is a place about your next string library and music not about politics....even if tomorrow is the end of the world.


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## kgdrum (Aug 9, 2022)

NuNativs said:


> Beware those who post anything on the Republican side of the political persuasion, you will be banned stat. Best strategy, is to stay out of politics, focus only on musical topics. Think twice before posting if you want to remain. It's unfortunate, but it's the reality.



Absolutely NOT TRUE!

It was people spreading uninformed/misinformed atagonistic anti-vax and Covid b.s.
From most peoples perspective it was not anti-Republican, the moderators do not want threads continually being derailed when people had a political agenda spreading misinformation with no factual basis or relevance to the threads.


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## Gaffable (Aug 9, 2022)

NuNativs said:


> Beware those who post anything on the Republican side of the political persuasion, you will be banned stat. Best strategy, is to stay out of politics, focus only on musical topics. Think twice before posting if you want to remain. It's unfortunate, but it's the reality.



If you're interested, you can read about Mike's thinking on the subject of VI-Control political discussions, in the following thread:

Did Mike kill the Political forum.....


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## cuttime (Aug 9, 2022)

I'm completely satisfied with the excellent moderation of this forum. Thanks to ALL. A modest proposal: How about a "timeout" room with a "wall of shame", where the offenders can frequently check their membership status? If this can be implemented, perhaps it could take a bit of strain off the mods?


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## jazzman7 (Aug 9, 2022)

Twitter is plenty capable of satisfying those who may be addicted to having their blood pressure elevated. Why bring that kind of crap in here? The occasional "frank discussion" is useful here and there because taste is a wild animal, but beyond that, I'd rather not have to deal with it. Especially politics!


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## NuNativs (Aug 10, 2022)

kgdrum said:


> It was people spreading uninformed/misinformed atagonistic anti-vax and Covid b.s.
> From most peoples perspective it was not anti-Republican, the moderators do not want threads continually being derailed when people had a political agenda spreading misinformation with no factual basis or relevance to the threads.


(Must bite tongue hard, ouch!)


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## patrick76 (Aug 10, 2022)

I’m not sure who’s been banned recently or why, but I think the decision to try to minimize the damage to this forum seems to be working. I don’t notice many conversations or arguments that seem particularly abrasive or offensive. 

In a perfect world, you’d have tons of time to evaluate each problem, but realistically what you’re doing seems to be working fine. And, since it appears you are willing to give people another shot, I don’t see any real problems. 

This is a nice place on the internet. Kudos.


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## TonalDynamics (Aug 10, 2022)

HCMarkus said:


> Funny, I was just saying to myself that it seems some folks are getting a bit vitriolic in their posts these days. Completely get and respect your perspective and approach, Mike; it is entirely appropriate. Thanks for helping to keep things civil around here!


Funny you should say _that_, because I've just been over at the GS forums, and good LORD has that place become even more of a hot dumpster fire than it ever was before.

The vast majority of new posts are literally a bunch of dudes arguing about aesthetical tastes in music (nothing new there), but 'vitriolic' is precisely the word I would use to describe a lot of the conversations now, about issues as dumb as one person's taste differing from anothers... it's as if everyone is waiting for — or even 'baiting out' a moment when they are personally attacked and are thus free to respond in kind; not just drama, but blatant toxicity towards fellow posters and shameless shit-posting.

There's a thread over there now called 'modern vs. out of date production' or some such, with loads of new posts, that had become an absolute garbage bin in terms of people yawping at each other or making incendiary jabs for one reason or another. Mods had to go through and purge dozens of ad-hominems (including one user who *allegedly* spent an inordinate amount of time with other guy's mothers), and it was the first time I literally saw someone banned in realtime (the same user) in a thread who was harassing (not discussing with) me and some others in that thread.

Invariably, and importantly, it is almost always people with very recent join dates ('20-'22) relative to their obscenely high post counts, and while you hate to have a reason to be suspicious of newer members, it does seem there is a clear correlation with the likelihood of such a user to be a repeat offender on a new account who is up to the same antics after a prior ban.


Maybe we are entering an age of musical angst and people are more ragey than ever? A result of COVID-era jadedness and projection? Dissatisfaction with the current state of the music industry distilled into resentment for those who are 'a part' of it? A byproduct of communities being infiltrated by non-musical normies who have even more free time on their hands than ever to pick fights based on little more than their personal opinions?

Who can say... just be careful if you decide to go over there — it's the 'rough' part of town now.

At the risk of risk of exhibiting favoritism, my general feeling is that this board is altogether a cut above in terms of the class displayed by its typical users, and I certainly hope it stays that way.

In other words, I feel that strong opinions should be allowed, and discussion encouraged, but personal attacks and toxicity should not.


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## Mike Greene (Aug 10, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> There's been lots of bannings lately? Is all the action in the forums that don't show up under the Latest Posts feed or something?


This is mostly in the main forums. (Drama Zone and Political Section are mostly ghost towns.) The problematic posts generally get deleted, so there's not much to see afterwards.



PaulieDC said:


> This post of yours reveals to us that the nice environment takes effort and time on your part, more than we probably realized. Thank you for that.


It does take some time, but the forum mostly self-moderates, so it's not as much work as I might be implying. Plus the ad revenue more than compensates, so I'm in no position to complain. 



PaulieDC said:


> Oh, and there have been a few times where someone new hopped on here with a real self-elevated entitled attitude (usually using "Bruh" in their wording), and I've leaped on them like a Rat Terrier that hasn't eaten in three days. Respectfully of course. Hope that's ok...


99% of the membership here knows what's cool and what isn't, so I have no worries at all about that. In fact, the danger in posting threads like this if that the 99% might think _they_ could be part of a problem, which they most certainly are not. (For the 99%, being cursed with self-awareness means you can't help but question yourself, so thoughts like this are understandable.) To be clear, we don't want "the 99%" to change a single thing about what they're doing.



cuttime said:


> A modest proposal: How about a "timeout" room with a "wall of shame", where the offenders can frequently check their membership status? If this can be implemented, perhaps it could take a bit of strain off the mods?


I confess there would be an evil pleasure in having a "Wall of Shame," but doing things silently seems to be more effective. Less drama, so there's no fallout afterwards. Simply delete the posts, possibly ban (without announcement), done. No strain at all. Moderating the forum isn't as difficult as I may have been making it seem.



TonalDynamics said:


> Invariably, and importantly, it is almost always people with very recent join dates ('20-'22) relative to their obscenely high post counts, and while you hate to have a reason to be suspicious of newer members, it does seem there is a clear correlation with the likelihood of such a user to be a repeat offender on a new account who is up to the same antics after a prior ban.


We've been seeing the same thing here, which is why we give way less latitude to new/anonymous members.


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## Mike Greene (Aug 10, 2022)

NuNativs said:


> Beware those who post anything on the Republican side of the political persuasion, you will be banned stat. Best strategy, is to stay out of politics, focus only on musical topics. Think twice before posting if you want to remain. It's unfortunate, but it's the reality.


Aside from the word "unfortunate," this is excellent advice. I'll add, though, that posts on the Democrats' side don't fare well, either, and about 40% of the political posts we delete are left wing. That's admittedly less than 60% for right wing posts, but that's because things like Covid and Climate Change denial are uniquely right wing.

Getting _banned_ for politics, though, leans heavily right wing. Not because of my own political biases, but rather because there's seems to be a martyr fantasy amongst some of these far right guys. I spell this out in this "_Hey Right Wing People! Stop Getting Yourself Banned!"_ thread.

I mention that because you chose to say, _"you will be banned stat."_ Given that all I did was delete a few of your climate change posts in the European Hot Summer thread, with no ban or even so much as a threat of a ban, that's an interesting choice of words. Laying the groundwork for martyrdom, perhaps? If that's what you want, I'll happily comply, but be aware that no one will remember you for it, so it seems kinda pointless to me. Why not just enjoy the forum and skip the politics? If you want to believe I'm unfair to the right, I'm fine with that, but _complaining_ about my unfairness is where things get annoying, so please refrain from that.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 10, 2022)

jazzman7 said:


> Twitter is plenty capable of satisfying those who may be addicted to having their blood pressure elevated. Why bring that kind of crap in here? The occasional "frank discussion" is useful here and there because taste is a wild animal, but beyond that, I'd rather not have to deal with it. Especially politics!


Agreed, Twitter is very good if you follow the right people. And the level of the political discourse here is depressingly low - which is why I don't do it anymore.

But my question is if it's crap, why does it raise anyone's blood pressure?

Answer: because it's all too real!

The debate in America is much more existential than left/right policy at the moment. I hope everyone is paying attention and voting accordingly.

That aside, getting banned... Mike just answered that.


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## Uiroo (Aug 10, 2022)

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Politics Forum.org | PoFo


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PoliticalForum.com - Forum for US and Intl Politics


Active Political Forum community (10+ years)




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r/Politics_


r/Politics_: Politics




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House Of Politics Forum


Political forum, politics, political discussions, political board, politics




www.houseofpolitics.com









MadAboutPolitics.com - Featured News


Mad about Politics Home Page, Politics and community for all




madaboutpolitics.com












Home | Conservative Policy Forum


The Conservative Policy Forum is the party's grassroots-led think tank that bridges the gap between members and ministers. CPF offers people across the country an opportunity to discuss and design solutions to the policy challenges facing Britain today, and have their say in the national discussion.




www.conservativepolicyforum.com




http://www.politicsforum.co.uk/forum/
You can make your political argument *that* much more sophisticated by not posting it in a virtual-instruments-hobbyist-forum


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## LatinXCombo (Aug 10, 2022)

Mike Greene said:


> *Getting banned for politics, though, leans heavily right wing. Not because of my own political biases, *


I try to steer clear of political discussions here, mostly because I can't imagine why I'd be interested in discussing politics in a forum dedicated to music. Plenty of other places to do that, and I come here to do something productive.

That said, the argument you employed here has been employed by many people for centuries as a means to justify all manner of prejudice.

When I catch myself saying something along those lines ("everyone who is of [X] persuasion also is someone who deserves [whatever negative outcome I deem appropriate]") I try to treat it as rebuttable evidence that I am, in fact, biased. It's not a fun bit of introspection but it has saved me from treating people unfairly in the past.

That is all.

[ETA: I actually came into this thread b/c I thought it was going to be some joke thread about someone who was angry that he was banned and then started posting demanding to be reinstated. Second-best would've been someone who REALLY thought he was banned and posting, not realizing that he could post so therefore wasn't banned. Little bit of a letdown, TBH.... ]


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## szczaw (Aug 10, 2022)

I wouldn't permanently ban anyone. Instead I'd set the initial ban to two days, and increase that by a power of two. Repeated 'offenders' would be away for exponentially growing number of days.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 10, 2022)

LatinXCombo said:


> That said, the argument you employed here has been employed by many people for centuries as a means to justify all manner of prejudice


Mike is not using it here, and it's not prejudice.


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## Nico5 (Aug 10, 2022)

LatinXCombo said:


> That said, the argument you employed here has been employed by many people for centuries as a means to justify all manner of prejudice.


I disagree. 

Because I see it this way:



> The *paradox of tolerance* states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Nico5 (Aug 10, 2022)

szczaw said:


> I wouldn't permanently ban anyone. Instead I'd set the initial ban to two days, and increase that by a power of two. Repeated 'offenders' would be away for exponentially growing number of days.


I think that's also too simplistic of an algorithm. For example, it doesn't cover the abuse of continually re-registering accounts all that well.

It's one of the fundamental problems with algorithms, including regulations and laws: They tend to fail in edge cases and/or when actively gamed by motivated parties.

I also don't know, if this forum software makes time based banning or ignoring easy.

On another forum, I've seen the concept of ignoring someone with a time frame - and I've used that liberally to give shorter "ignore" time frames to individuals, to facilitate someone maybe just having a bad day.


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## Bman70 (Aug 10, 2022)

Nico5 said:


> I disagree.
> 
> Because I see it this way: The *paradox of tolerance* states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant.


Can you name an online music forum this has happened to?


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## Nico5 (Aug 10, 2022)

Bman70 said:


> Can you name an online music forum this has happened to?


Can you name an online music forum that's tolerant without limit?


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## Bman70 (Aug 10, 2022)

Nico5 said:


> Can you name an online music forum that's tolerant without limit?


I can't speak for what their limits are or aren't. Therefore the grave dangers of tolerance must remain hypothetical, which is perhaps where they are most persuasive.  

_Comparatively, _however, several people have mentioned that other music sites are "free for alls" compared to this one, where abrasive threads have been allowed to go on and egoists wax unchecked. I haven't noticed, since I'm usually just reading the information I'm looking for and find it easy enough to stay out of distracting threads. I guess you could say I'm able to perform auto-censorship.


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## cuttime (Aug 10, 2022)

I have to admit I kind of miss the numerology guy who was going to be the next Andrew Lloyd Webber who had a secret melody database that was going to be his keys to success.


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## PaulieDC (Aug 10, 2022)

jazzman7 said:


> Twitter is plenty capable of satisfying those who may be addicted to having their blood pressure elevated. Why bring that kind of crap in here? The occasional "frank discussion" is useful here and there because taste is a wild animal, but beyond that, I'd rather not have to deal with it. Especially politics!


The thing is, heated political discussions are pointless, because whatever side you're on, you're sticking with that, and certainly not going convince your opponent. "I got in a heated argument the other day about these issues and the other person totally changed my stance" said no one ever!


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## szczaw (Aug 10, 2022)

Nico5 said:


> I think that's also too simplistic of an algorithm. For example, it doesn't cover the abuse of continually re-registering accounts all that well.
> 
> It's one of the fundamental problems with algorithms, including regulations and laws: They tend to fail in edge cases and/or when actively gamed by motivated parties.
> 
> ...


New accounts would get a permanent ban then. The idea is not to throw out permanently people with forum history, but at the same time if they're continue to be of nuisance, they would eventually remove themselves indefinitely. I've read somewhere that some helpful and knowledgeable people were removed because of their opinions on topics other than music. That's rather unfortunate.


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## Nico5 (Aug 10, 2022)

szczaw said:


> people were removed because of their opinions on topics


I think that's a blatant falsehood - individuals don't get banned for their opinions, but for their behavior


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## JJP (Aug 10, 2022)

I was told by someone who read somewhere something by a person whose roomate overheard someone else reading aloud from their phone that people were speculating about reasons nice people who help old ladies cross the street were removed from various forums because somebody else heard somebody say that their beliefs were unpleasant to someone who was reading a secondhand account of their posts.


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## szczaw (Aug 10, 2022)

Nico5 said:


> I think that's a blatant falsehood - individuals don't get banned for their opinions, but for their behavior


I don't know the particularities, but the forum owner hinted at banning for expressing opinions about covid, and I'm assuming questioning man-made climate change.


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## dzilizzi (Aug 10, 2022)

I probably should be banned (please don't) because it would save me a lot of money. Before I came here, my most expensive libraries were about $100.

I think, for the most part, this forum self moderates well. But there are always buttons that can be pressed. I know I have seen it happen. I think Mike does a great job at removing the problem posts, even when some are mine and I didn't think they were too off.  I think not responding to the posts in the first place would probably help. The need for sarcasm/humor always gets the better of me.

Okay, now to go start trouble in the Performance Samples thread. I hear they don't have second violins. (just kidding)


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## Jdiggity1 (Aug 10, 2022)

szczaw said:


> I don't know the particularities, but the forum owner hinted at banning for expressing opinions about covid, and I'm assuming questioning man-made climate change.


No, "the forum owner hinted" at _posts being deleted_ within those topics, not bans.
The bans were about "martyrdom", which is behavioural.

Whether you can classify statements like "Climate change and most of the world's evil is part of a plan by a cabal of leftist elites" as opinion is up for debate, but there is a predictable behavioural pattern that usually follows such statements.


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## Jett Hitt (Aug 10, 2022)

What’s gonna happen is my wife’s gonna see this thread and start using my account to post flat earth and fake moon landing stuff, and just to be sure she ruffles Mike’s feathers enough, she’ll throw in a Stop the Steal post or two. 🤣


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## RSK (Aug 10, 2022)

cuttime said:


> I have to admit I kind of miss the numerology guy who was going to be the next Andrew Lloyd Webber who had a secret melody database that was going to be his keys to success.


Dang it, I missed that somehow.


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## Gaffable (Aug 10, 2022)

RSK said:


> Dang it, I missed that somehow.



This is the thread:

My Reasons For Planning To Become Famous


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## Jdiggity1 (Aug 11, 2022)

Posts have been deleted, but I don't think this thread was meant to be about the psychology behind why we fall for conspiracy theories, so I'm just going to lock it for now.


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