# Is the state of the industry as bad as it seems?



## aitte (May 9, 2016)

I wanted to become a composer, but now I'm not sure anymore.

- The industry rates are declining rapidly, as more and more people are willing to work for slave wages. What used to be a $2000 job seems to be $200 now.
- There are huge libraries like Epidemic Sound where TV shows get their music for almost nothing. I'm in Sweden and almost every TV show has a "Music: Epidemic Sound" credit at the end. One of the largest TV stations even has a cost-cutting rule that says they can't have more than 2 minutes of custom-composed non-library music per hour.
- (As pointed out by chillbot below) Internet streaming is killing television shows, advertising revenues, and composer royalties.

So really, it seems I'm living in the wrong decade. It seems that for someone new to the field, all that remains these days is a slow, sludge-walk through unpaid student film scoring and other voluntary work. And at the end of it all you still can't make a living, since all "mass produced" composing work these days go to the music libraries, a little bit goes to the people willing to accept $200 for a film, and all the well-paid custom work goes to the top 0.1% producers who've already made a name in the industry (before it collapsed) and who know the right people.

It seems the industry has never been more unstable than it is now, with everything moving towards cheaply mass-produced automation, where there's no longer any need for custom productions in anything but high-end movies and TV shows.

I would like to hear your views on this. The changing industry has made me change my plans in life. Instead of the dream of devoting myself to composing music and making enough to earn a living, I'll just start a company in some unrelated field, and only make music as a hobby... It seems better than worrying about job security in a crumbling industry...


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## chillbot (May 9, 2016)

And don't forget how largely-unregulated streaming media is killing off both television and royalties as we know it. Oh well it was fun.


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## Daryl (May 9, 2016)

aitte said:


> - The industry rates are declining rapidly, as more and more people are willing to work for slave wages. What used to be a $2000 job seems to be $200 now.


No, there are no slave wages. There's either do it for nothing, which is your choice, or do it for less than you think you're worth.



aitte said:


> - There are huge libraries like Epidemic Sound where TV shows get their music for almost nothing. I'm in Sweden and almost every TV show has a "Music: Epidemic Sound" credit at the end. One of the largest TV stations even has a cost-cutting rule that says they can't have more than 2 minutes of custom-composed non-library music per hour.
> - (As pointed out by chillbot below) Internet streaming is killing television shows, advertising revenues, and composer royalties.


Yes, libraries are eating into custom scoring, but there is no reason why they shouldn't. After all music libraries have been around for longer. Also don't forget that many documentaries and reality TV shows, for example, need a huge range of music, most of which can't be produced with any kind of quality by one composer. Where you should be complaining is if the music is not very good.



aitte said:


> So really, it seems I'm living in the wrong decade. It seems that for someone new to the field, all that remains these days is a slow, sludge-walk through unpaid student film scoring and other voluntary work. And at the end of it all you still can't make a living, since all "mass produced" composing work these days go to the music libraries, a little bit goes to the people willing to accept $200 for a film, and all the well-paid custom work goes to the top 0.1% producers who've already made a name in the industry (before it collapsed) and who know the right people.


Yes and no. For previous generations thee were certainly more opportunities per composer, but there was a much smaller pool of composers. Furthermore, these people actually had to have skills and couldn't rely on the latest sample product to get them through the gig, so in some ways it is easier to make a living as a media composer now than it has ever been. Having said that, there are many people who make good livings as composers, so it's not impossible.



aitte said:


> It seems the industry has never been more unstable than it is now, with everything moving towards cheaply mass-produced automation, where there's no longer any need for custom productions in anything but high-end movies and TV shows.


This is true, but it's also true in pretty much every profession. Automation kills jobs.



aitte said:


> I would like to hear your views on this. The changing industry has made me change my plans in life. Instead of the dream of devoting myself to composing music and making enough to earn a living, I'll just start a company in some unrelated field, and only make music as a hobby... It seems better than worrying about job security in a crumbling industry...


What are your qualifications for being a composer? What are your skills? How are you attempting to get into the profession?


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## chillbot (May 9, 2016)

Actually let me make a slightly-less dour post.

Random coffee ramblings:

Shows that use library music sound like crap, always have and always will. The shows that go this route and have cut music budgets are largely mass-produced cable shows that are not going anywhere anyway. I'm trying to think of one prime-time network TV show that uses primarily library music and drawing a blank. Anyway in the US, there are still thousands and thousands of television shows that pay decent money upfront to have custom music. I know plenty of people who have made a living for 20+ years without ever having sold a track to a library, and these are not the big name composers just average joes like us.

I have a theory there will eventually be a breaking point, so many crappy shows out there, more shows will want to start paying for quality music again (among other things) to set themselves apart. I've already seen this trend starting to materialize.

BMI and ASCAP every quarter claim to have collected a "RECORD BREAKING!!" amount of royalties. I don't know where all this apparent money is going, but it's out there somewhere.

Streaming services such as Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, etc, get a really bad rap but the royalties are coming around. I posted somewhere on here some time ago a breakdown of my statement and as miniscule as the actual amount of money is, it really wasn't far off in terms of "per-viewer". The fact is a show might only get streamed 40,000 times and people wonder why we're only making pennies but even a horrible cable show can get 400,000 viewers, and you're only making a few bucks on that cable show. It's going to balance out in the long run, I believe. As the PROs start to figure this stuff out.

Re: library music, I think it is every bit as bad as you think it is. But... see my point above about reaching an over-saturation or breaking point. At some point quality is going to be the new thing? I don't know if that's necessarily true but it's something to be upbeat about anyway.

The people that I see succeed are the people who are really good at what they do. You can be really good at writing quality music or in some cases you can be really good at writing tons and tons of crappy music (it has to be one or the other in order to really stand out... and if you're writing crappy or mediocre music I don't mean you write 4-5 tracks per day I mean you write 10-12 tracks per day, every day). Yes you have to also get lucky but luck is not going to help you if you suck. So in that regards I don't see that anything has changed.

We had a good run of 10 years where maybe television and libraries were actually OVERpaying for mediocre music. When that happens it brings everyone out of the woodwork, every half-ass with a mac and a sample library started flooding the market, and some of it was not even half bad. Now that the rates are going down the industry is not quite as appealing (as you've noticed). People like you are dropping out and doing other things. In the end, I understand that we need to make a living and support ourselves but my mantra has always been, this is what I would be doing anyway if I wasn't getting paid for it. Anyway as interest rates go down, real estate goes up, and vice versa.


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## Daryl (May 9, 2016)

chillbot said:


> Re: library music, I think it is every bit as bad as you think it is.


Well that's me told then, isn't it....! Luckily your opinion is pretty much irrelevant to me earning a living, so I won't lose any sleep.


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## chillbot (May 9, 2016)

Daryl said:


> Well that's me told then, isn't it....! Luckily your opinion is pretty much irrelevant to me earning a living, so I won't lose any sleep.



I didn't mean "bad" as in quality I was referring to OP's question about how much more difficult it is to get into libraries now vs ten years ago. Poorly phrased my apologies.


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## mwarsell (May 9, 2016)

Isn't there oversaturation in every cultural/art-based field of study? It sure is hard and I too have had to complete another degree and do other work in order to afford continue living my hobby and dream. But one day I will make it. I will never surrender. There is a British composer, Havergail (?), who first heard his work performed by a live orchestra when he was over 90. Had been composing for decades before that. But never gave up. 

What I fear most is that on my deathbed I realize that I should've kept going. And so I will.


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## gsilbers (May 9, 2016)

Epidemic Sound seems to not even do broadcast royalties for composers. I wonder how much they pay composers upfront for this. It would have to be more than $200.
That's normally not the case as most libraries make their money from broadcast royalties, which they share with composers 50/50.

if that library is paying $200 upfront and composers don't get royalties then that is not good at all and I have no idea why anyone would place their music there unless its very crappy music.

now to be devils advocate:

I guess if you somehow manage to make a track in 4 hours then it would be $50 an hour you are making.
if you make 2 tracks a day that's $400 a day or $2000 a week. That's more than most people make on a 9-5 job.
even for one track a day at 8 hours.

if the argument is quality... I can say that I've seen people create good tracks like its a on/off button switch.
we have huge templates with huge libraries and plugins that are way better than equipment 10-15 years ago.
if the question is that those cost money.. well, any business costs money.

The devil is in the details. quality vs quantity will vary on the specific track. some underscore or tracks that are easily made will be on the cheap side. or those epic tracks that rely on pre set formulas and instrumentation.
anything with real instruments, maybe it works for those folks who have their own studio and they can composer/record/mix a track in a day or two. simple pop/rock stuff.


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## gsilbers (May 9, 2016)

chillbot said:


> Actually let me make a slightly-less dour post.
> 
> Random coffee ramblings:
> 
> ...




I've already heard about two reality tv show editors who are having a really hard time getting work and they both point out to the notion of no more unscripted tv. reality tv which has a lot to do with the rise of library music so now that there is a scripted tv explosion I think those will get composers and library music might go down.

the big picture I guess is that there is no music industry anymore and those who were in that industry jumped to tv shows and library music. everyone puts music on youtube and those barley pay. we In the X MTV generation decided we didn't want to pay for music a while back ago. so now that means no one will pay for music anymore.
they see no value. its hard to see value when there is so much. we have let companies trade our music for pennies. Pandora/library music/streaming anything etc.


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## doctornine (May 9, 2016)

Daryl said:


> Well that's me told then, isn't it....! Luckily your opinion is pretty much irrelevant to me earning a living, so I won't lose any sleep.



Me either - got far too much work on to worry about sleep


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## gsilbers (May 9, 2016)

Daryl said:


> Well that's me told then, isn't it....! Luckily your opinion is pretty much irrelevant to me earning a living, so I won't lose any sleep.



you kinda sum it up. you do you own thing. I do my own thing. he does his own thing and we all race to the bottom dollar.


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## ryanstrong (May 9, 2016)

Somewhat relevant. "If you are good at what you do, people are going to notice." makes sense to me. But I guess the question is... how much are they willing to pay once they notice you?


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## Baron Greuner (May 9, 2016)

Daryl said:


> Well that's me told then, isn't it....! Luckily your opinion is pretty much irrelevant to me earning a living, so I won't lose any sleep.



I must have missed something.


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## aitte (May 9, 2016)

gsilbers said:


> Epidemic Sound seems to not even do broadcast royalties for composers. I wonder how much they pay composers upfront for this. It would have to be more than $200.
> That's normally not the case as most libraries make their money from broadcast royalties, which they share with composers 50/50. if that library is paying $200 upfront and composers don't get royalties then that is not good at all and I have no idea why anyone would place their music there unless its very crappy music.



You've read that correctly, there are no royalties at Epidemic... Quote: "Epidemic Sound = Work for hire, regularly writing music on request and demand. One-time compensation per track. (In average equivalent to 2-3 hours of reported total play in a European medium-sized commercial TV channel. And that is a LOT for one song.) No royalties. Payment not based on usage. In fact you’re always compensated - whether the track is ever used or not. Monthly disbursement."
Source: http://epidemic-sound.teamtailor.com/jobs/1081-composers-and-producers

Songs must be about 2 minutes long, and fully produced, mixed and mastered, and they expect it to be _great_ music (basically that you should give away your most incredible music hooks instead of selling those yourself). You can hear the quality they expect here: https://player.epidemicsound.com. Their pay scale begins at 600 SEK (~$74) per song. No royalties. But they increase it a bit if you produce quality for them for a long time, and they also give you 50% extra whenever they think a particular song is great. I've seen some forum posts reveal that they're making about 1500 SEK ($183) per song. But they also reveal that there's lots of "please change this, please change that" feedback and that it's hard to get a song approved. Most of their producers are students, who don't have to pay any rent yet...

After the song is sold, they own it _completely_. You have no rights whatsoever anymore. So if a song is picked as the theme for a popular show, you can kiss those royalties goodbye. There won't be anything but the initial paycheck.

The worst drawback of all: If you are a member of BMI, ASCAP or other royalty collection societies, you are not allowed to work for Epidemic Sound. So you either have to work for Epidemic OR be a free musician selling your music yourself.

So in short: Selling music to Epidemic Sound at $75-$180 per song could earn a very good living if I lived in Eastern Europe (where average wages are $180 per month). In the west, it's not enough... especially not for the quality they demand.

As for a regular, non-composer music career... those are dead too. Regular musicians aren't making a living anymore, since online streaming and YouTube is totally killing sales of music. The singer on Avicii's Wake Me Up earned something like 5000 SEK (~$600) for hundreds of millions of plays of the song via online streaming. Unless you're the most popular musician (think Taylor Swift and Justin Bieber), or can sell out huge concerts, you won't be making any digital sales. People don't want to buy music for permanent ownership anymore. They want free streaming and torrents. Sadly...

Every music industry field is racing rapidly to the bottom.

Maybe I'll move to Russia and produce 2-3 approved songs for Epidemic Sound per month, and earn an above-average living that way. I'm only half-joking...


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## Baron Greuner (May 9, 2016)

If you move to Russia let me know what decade it is will you?


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## Daryl (May 9, 2016)

gsilbers said:


> you kinda sum it up. you do you own thing. I do my own thing. he does his own thing and we all race to the bottom dollar.


Speak for yourself....! I'm not racing to the bottom. In fact I'm spending more on production than I ever have. If you are talking about earnings, yes they are decreasing on a track by track basis, but as yet there is no race and the bottom is nowhere in sight.


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## aitte (May 9, 2016)

Baron Greuner said:


> If you move to Russia let me know what decade it is will you?



Haha, the major Russian cities are as modern as anything in the west. Maybe I'll move to Russia for the beautiful women and the fact that you can live like a king if you've got westerner-level incomes, but I certainly won't work for Epidemic Sound. They expect you to make hit music and to sell it for a one-time payment of $75-$180 (and it becomes their property). I'd feel like I'm whoring myself and it would take all joy out of music for me, and if a song becomes a hit you will forever hate yourself for having sold it that cheaply. For that kind of ridiculous gutter-cash, I'd rather take my chances and just sell music independently instead.

@Daryl: Where do you live and what kind of production work do you do? I'm curious since you're happy with your situation and seem unaffected by the music industry's race to the bottom.


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## givemenoughrope (May 9, 2016)

Ha, Dave Grohl. But he's an entertainer and self-anointed popular music historian and completely removed from the broader reality. I did some cues for one of his productions. He noticed and then just used a Foo Fighters track that was hacked together/badly edited. It seems if you are a big dog now, you're more likely to be one. But maybe you have to be a brand, a "rockstar" of sorts, be it real or invented via social media.


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## Daryl (May 9, 2016)

aitte said:


> Where do you live and what kind of production work do you do? I'm curious since you're happy with your situation and seem unaffected by the music industry's race to the bottom.


It's more that I refuse to be affected by other people's choices. If people want to do everything on the cheap and take no time over their work, that's up to them. I just refuse to do the same. I live in the UK and pretty much write library music full time, other than some concert composing, some conducting and running the business..!


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## robharvey (May 9, 2016)

I can't comment on television as I haven't done any of that stuff yet but here are my thoughts:


I make a portion of my money from composing and sound design through audio books. I also teach music, working in a studio, do the odd wedding gig. All of these income streams have their ups and downs but what I've found is my risk is spread throughout. If the teaching dries up during exam season I've got the studio etc etc etc. You don't have that abject fear of not being able to put food on the table

The way you have to structure your life these days generally means you cannot do just one thing and hope to be a success in it. Unless you're super focused and smart about picking up contacts, making your own luck, you'll need to spread your risk over several things. I've seen hundreds of fellow students fall into that trap of not accepting the fact that they can't be the guy right away. I remember my college/uni course had a turnover of 140ish students while I was there. At the end there were only 13 of us and only 4 of us actually work in music now. All because they couldn't manage their expectations. 

While it isn't easy to just jump into a composing job, it is however possible to build your life around becoming a successful composer. This will then lead you to balance your work around that. Pretty much every successful composer ever teaches in some shape or form. That isn't just a modern thing, it's been happening for hundreds of years. 

If you're doing multiple things with your life, you're gaining skills you otherwise wouldn't get. For instance, you're working as an engineer so you're mixes are getting better, you're working the odd building site keeping your fitness and stamina up, you're teaching keeping yourself mentally sharp, confident and communicative. So when that big film job comes around you've got your tools right there ready and you've got the time capacity there to do it. 


It's not all bad, we're just not in the 1980's anymore!


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## rgames (May 9, 2016)

Here's my take: I think the folks who were doing media music - film, TV, any media - 50 years ago have been replaced by an equal-size group that is performing basically the same function for basically equivalent pay.

What has changed is that there are new markets that didn't exist 50 years ago. Those needs have been met by a new group of folks, many of whom write music as a way to make some additional income. That market has price points that reflect the fact that it's extra income for many of those who take part in it (not all).

That expanded market is a great way for a lot of people to earn some extra cash. That opportunity did not exist 50 years ago.

So, in fact, it can be considered a good thing.

rgames


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## kclements (May 9, 2016)

chillbot said:


> ...Shows that use library music sound like crap, always have and always will...



Wait, are you saying that the music sounds like crap, or the audio quality (dialog and other non-musical elements) are crap? Because I don't know how you can listen to music from Daryl, Donn, Andy or a number of other composers that work for libraries and call their cues crap.

I subscribe to Daryl's philosophy: Refuse to be affected by other peoples choices, and I would add do your best work and strive to improve.


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## gsilbers (May 9, 2016)

aitte said:


> You've read that correctly, there are no royalties at Epidemic... Quote: "Epidemic Sound = Work for hire, regularly writing music on request and demand. One-time compensation per track. (In average equivalent to 2-3 hours of reported total play in a European medium-sized commercial TV channel. And that is a LOT for one song.) No royalties. Payment not based on usage. In fact you’re always compensated - whether the track is ever used or not. Monthly disbursement."
> Source: http://epidemic-sound.teamtailor.com/jobs/1081-composers-and-producers
> 
> Songs must be about 2 minutes long, and fully produced, mixed and mastered, and they expect it to be _great_ music (basically that you should give away your most incredible music hooks instead of selling those yourself). You can hear the quality they expect here: https://player.epidemicsound.com. Their pay scale begins at 600 SEK (~$74) per song. No royalties. But they increase it a bit if you produce quality for them for a long time, and they also give you 50% extra whenever they think a particular song is great. I've seen some forum posts reveal that they're making about 1500 SEK ($183) per song. But they also reveal that there's lots of "please change this, please change that" feedback and that it's hard to get a song approved. Most of their producers are students, who don't have to pay any rent yet...
> ...



yes that sucks. since I didn't know about this and I am constantly on forums.. I think this just needs more word of mouth/forums posts about not to do this. that way when kids or musicians are looking up this company or other similar to it they can move on and that it doesn't work.


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## gsilbers (May 9, 2016)

Daryl said:


> Speak for yourself....! I'm not racing to the bottom. In fact I'm spending more on production than I ever have. If you are talking about earnings, yes they are decreasing on a track by track basis, but as yet there is no race and the bottom is nowhere in sight.


 
if you care about only yourself and I care only for myself then we are both racing for the bottom.
my meaning is more towards what "unions" do.


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## Daryl (May 9, 2016)

gsilbers said:


> if you care about only yourself and I care only for myself then we are both racing for the bottom.
> my meaning is more towards what "unions" do.


"If". A loaded word. I don't only "care about myself",but I offer other people chances and hope, as well as put my money where my mouth is to support them. Hence I'm not racing to the bottom at all.


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## gsilbers (May 9, 2016)

kclements said:


> Wait, are you saying that the music sounds like crap, or the audio quality (dialog and other non-musical elements) are crap? Because I don't know how you can listen to music from Daryl, Donn, Andy or a number of other composers that work for libraries and call their cues crap.
> 
> I subscribe to Daryl's philosophy: Refuse to be affected by other peoples choices, and I would add do your best work and strive to improve.



funny how usernames makes us anonymous.


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## chillbot (May 9, 2016)

kclements said:


> Wait, are you saying that the music sounds like crap, or the audio quality (dialog and other non-musical elements) are crap? Because I don't know how you can listen to music from Daryl, Donn, Andy or a number of other composers that work for libraries and call their cues crap.
> 
> I subscribe to Daryl's philosophy: Refuse to be affected by other peoples choices, and I would add do your best work and strive to improve.



Of course I'm not saying that, that would be an idiotic thing to say. I'm saying the editors chop the music to shit and the music is all over the spectrum, has no continuity and the show ends up sounding terrible. Music custom to the show will always be better.


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## kclements (May 9, 2016)

chillbot said:


> Of course I'm not saying that, that would be an idiotic thing to say. I'm saying the editors chop the music to shit and the music is all over the spectrum, has no continuity and the show ends up sounding terrible. Music custom to the show will always be better.



Ok, well, that is how I understood it. Which is how these things can blow up on forum posts. Thanks for clarifying. 

But, I would still take issue with your implication that any show that uses library music sound like crap. A good friend of mine had a placement in _The Big Bang Theory_ from a library that wasn't chopped up to shit. And I thought it sounded pretty good. 

Anyway, I'll stick to my philosophy as stated above.


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## C.R. Rivera (May 9, 2016)

"funny how usernames makes us anonymous."

Really.............? (Could not resist)


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## Jetzer (May 9, 2016)

aitte said:


> I'll just start a company in some unrelated field, and only make music as a hobby... It seems better than worrying about job security in a crumbling industry...



Since when is starting a company easier and more secure than composing music for a living...in fact, they are not far from being the same thing.



aitte said:


> So really, it seems I'm living in the wrong decade.



Seriously, THE decade that presents the most opportunities for anyone, anywhere? Can't complain about that.


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## mc_deli (May 9, 2016)

@aitte It's much worse than that. I have posted about Epidemic before. In Finland, the national broadcaster, YLE, has a quasi-exclusive agreement to use Epidemic for stock music. In Finland the license fee for YLE is paid along with your tax bill. YLE is like the BBC. 

This means that all Finns are paying for a Swedish commercial library to place tracks in TV trailers and even some shows.

Imagine if the BBC announced they were buying all the stock music from Renault...

Worse, most commercial broadcasters in Finland, and most independent production companies also have deals with Epidemic.

The entry level industry for media composing for TV has been wiped out. (Of course YLE commission music, too).

YLE claim they don't have an alternative. Considering their remit is to support Finnish culture, it should be prohibited. Considering the amount of media players, databases, online services, resources etc. they have, YLE should have made their own service for Finnish composers to supply entry level stock music.

It's worse. The composers' union don't really care because their members are the 400 top composers who have a history of work and are working at the top level across different media. The performing rights organisation doesn't care either. They are not interested in a solution that enables Finnish programme makers to buy royalty free from Finnish composers. And they won't negotiate and all the programme makers think the rates are too high.

It's worse. Young composers just don't care either. The lucky ones are doing private Audiodraft contests for TV work - secret unpaid pitch competitions for e.g. national commercial broadcasters.

It's worse. The agency sector is so used to buying global RF stock for peanuts that the budgets and time allocated to music in the corporate sector have shrunk to basically nothing.

There are a few hints of discontent - some programme makers going back to majors but nothing significant.

What's worse is that editors hear their same Epidemic cues on other shows and channels, and there is a total lack of native instruments/cues, and the rumour is a lot of Epidemic tracks are registered as pseudonyms, which suggests that they are actually running a two tier show. And in the end, the cues are not that good. My guess is pseudonyms for their mates who palm off their seconds on the library, and then there is the marketing story. So far I have yet to find any composer who has a track placed with them. I understand they claim the rate is 150 per track.

(If any of this is out dated, I apologise. I last sat down with people on this in February.)


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## Daryl (May 9, 2016)

gsilbers said:


> funny how usernames makes us anonymous.


Was that aimed at me? If so, it is quite funny. Type "Daryl composer " and then "gsilbers composer" into Google and I'm sure that you'll agree that one of us is not so anonymous as you might think.


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## mverta (May 9, 2016)

Diversify and prosper.


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## kclements (May 9, 2016)

Daryl said:


> Was that aimed at me? If so, it is quite funny. Type "Daryl composer " and then "gsilbers composer" into Google and I'm sure that you'll agree that one of us is not so anonymous as you might think.



Or maybe it was aimed at me? But my web address is clearly posted on my profile page, so I never think of my username as anonymous.


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## Greg (May 9, 2016)

If something like money and job security scares away your dream that quickly, then yeah do something else. Saying this industry is crumbling and music is becoming worthless however, is just lying to yourself.


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## TimCox (May 9, 2016)

Speaking strictly about the film side of things: Some of it is what you make of it. Yeah, a lot of people don't put any monetary value on music at all but that's really been true for a long time. The big studios are still paying their guys like they always have. I think the real difference is that any Joe Schmoe can make a movie these days and they don't _really_ know how it works.


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## jononotbono (May 9, 2016)

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side."


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## TimCox (May 9, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> "The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side."


Great quote. I think LOTS of folk get into the music business with a very unrealistic idea of how it is. It's hard. I remember a band I was in, the two other guys always talked about what we would do after we 'made it' without any plan or idea on how to get to 'it.' You have to really love it and understand that you can put all the work in and try as hard as possible but you still might not make it there. For me, it can be very discouraging at times (and it should be, that's motivation) but I always have the notion that I absolutely love making music and producing it.


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## Prockamanisc (May 9, 2016)

mverta said:


> Diversify and prosper


Mike, I'm thinking that you mean diversify into non-musical fields as well as within the music industry, am I right? You've mentioned that in your masterclasses before.


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## RiffWraith (May 9, 2016)

kclements said:


> Or maybe it was aimed at me? But my web address is clearly posted on my profile page, so I never think of my username as anonymous.



My username is _completely _anonymous.

Just like this:







And no, you do not see any websites in my profile page. Nope. So there. Completely anonymous.


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## RiffWraith (May 9, 2016)

mverta said:


> Diversify and prosper.


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## jononotbono (May 9, 2016)

TimCox said:


> Great quote. I think LOTS of folk get into the music business with a very unrealistic idea of how it is. It's hard. I remember a band I was in, the two other guys always talked about what we would do after we 'made it' without any plan or idea on how to get to 'it.' You have to really love it and understand that you can put all the work in and try as hard as possible but you still might not make it there. For me, it can be very discouraging at times (and it should be, that's motivation) but I always have the notion that I absolutely love making music and producing it.



Couldn't agree more. I've been chasing record deals and publishing deals for years in different bands. The constant state of depression, with so much rejection and disappointment, could probably be enough to destroy some people? But for some reason it only makes me more excited and hungry than I have ever been. Must go. The Music Lab calls! The training never stops. Haha!


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## doctornine (May 10, 2016)

chillbot said:


> A
> 
> Re: library music, I think it is every bit as bad as you think it is. But... see my point above about reaching an over-saturation or breaking point. At some point quality is going to be the new thing?




What a load of absolute tripe. Personally if I submitted sh*tty music to the libraries I work with, they'd tell me it was sh*tty and I'd be out on my ear faster than you can say VI Control. True, everybody and their dog think it's an easy route to a money mountain, knock out a bunch of apple loops and you're in.
Let me tell you, it isn't, doesn't work like that. 
You want to work with the big boys, you need to be bloody good at it.


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## Baron Greuner (May 10, 2016)

TimCox said:


> I remember a band I was in, the two other guys always talked about what we would do after we 'made it' without any plan or idea on how to get to 'it.'



I used to pep talk a band of 3 players when they were young and starting out, especially one of them. It doesn't do any harm to have those kind of fun fantasia and dreams when you're young. Plans tend not to be foremost but playing and writing the music is the key.


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## Baron Greuner (May 10, 2016)

doctornine said:


> What a load of absolute tripe. Personally if I submitted sh*tty music to the libraries I work with, they'd tell me it was sh*tty and I'd be out on my ear faster than you can say VI Control. True, everybody and their dog think it's an easy route to a money mountain, knock out a bunch of apple loops and you're in.
> Let me tell you, it isn't, doesn't work like that.
> You want to work with the big boys, you need to be bloody good at it.



That's all pretty much accurate certainly from my experience.

There's always two issues I find, don't know about you Jonathan. But it's always (a) material and (b) prodction.

You can fall down a bit on production, but it's difficult to get away with unwanted material. Production can be fixed, but no one has a lot of time for rewriting material.

What also gets forgotten, is submitting any old bollocks to certain libraries isn't going to work. They generally know on a day to day basis what their distributors are looking for. And perhaps a lot of musicians don't also realise that they get inundated with private orders from all over the world for a specific piece/type of music and can therefore draw on their composers for that, based on their particular skills.


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## doctornine (May 10, 2016)

Yup, I'd pretty much agree on all of the above. 

It's become apparent over the time I've being doing this, you need to build relationships with who you work for, or else yeah, when they need something yesterday, they'll approach someone else.


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## chillbot (May 10, 2016)

chillbot said:


> Random coffee ramblings:


I should stop doing this.


chillbot said:


> I didn't mean "bad" as in quality I was referring to OP's question about how much more difficult it is to get into libraries now vs ten years ago. Poorly phrased my apologies.


I should have edited my post after Daryl called me out, I was addressing the OP and instead of saying "Re: library music" it should have read "Re: state of the industry". I would never imply that library music isn't quality. And the caliber of music at this point has to be even better than it ever has in the past.


doctornine said:


> What a load of absolute tripe. Personally if I submitted sh*tty music to the libraries I work with, they'd tell me it was sh*tty and I'd be out on my ear faster than you can say VI Control


Also poorly phrased, when I say "quality is going to be the new thing" I am referring to the overall quality of the television shows, musically. I know it's easy to get defensive because there are a number of people on here who poo-poo library music, I am not one of them. But I will maintain that the majority of television shows that use library music will never be as quality as the majority of television shows that use custom or work-for-hire music, especially scored to picture. It has nothing to do with the quality of the music and everything to do with editors mashing up a bunch of tracks from a bunch of different sources often with no rhyme or reason.


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## Daryl (May 10, 2016)

chillbot said:


> But I will maintain that the majority of television shows that use library music will never be as quality as the majority of library shows that use custom or work-for-hire music, especially scored to picture. It has nothing to do with the quality of the music and everything to do with editors mashing up a bunch of tracks from a bunch of different sources often with no rhyme or reason.


I partially agree. If one has custom music for a drama, then assuming that anyone on the team actually knows something about putting music to picture (which is actually more rare than one would think) the score should work much better with picture than a random selection of library music.

However, there are examples, including on feature films, where this is not the case. Furthermore, if the budget for the music is not at a required level for the sort of music that is being commissioned, no matter how well the music may fit the picture, the loss in quality of performance/recording may well be the tipping point.

Another thing to consider is that for shows that actually require a mish mash of styles, you will almost certainly get a better standard of music by using library music, because then there is the opportunity to get a track in each required genre that is written by someone who actually knows something about the genre, rather than a jack of all trades, hoping not to be found out. :>D


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## chillbot (May 10, 2016)

Daryl said:


> Another thing to consider is that for shows that actually require a mish mash of styles, you will almost certainly get a better standard of music by using library music, because then there is the opportunity to get a track in each required genre that is written by someone who actually knows something about the genre, rather than a jack of all trades, hoping not to be found out. :>D


This is a good point. I guess it's sad to me we've gotten to a point where it is accepted that some shows "actually require a mish mash of styles". I have a hard time watching those shows.


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## Daryl (May 10, 2016)

chillbot said:


> This is a good point. I guess it's sad to me we've gotten to a point where it is accepted that some shows "actually require a mish mash of styles". I have a hard time watching those shows.


They're obviously not aimed at you then. ;>)


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## passsacaglia (May 10, 2016)

Really interesting topic and, "sad" to hear how it can be for us musicians in the industry.
Also from Sweden, Stockholm. Having a kind of a "good" contact base here but I do know, it's really hard.
My "big" collaborations in music is 80% "talent" and 20% or less "contacts". I am good at the things I do and have done and 10+ years ago I was the only guy on youtube playing covers of EDM/House music like Eric Prydz, Axwell, Ingrosso, Avicii etc, also made tutorials on how to play these songs. Soon I'll reach 3 million views on my channel and have some great collabs in my backpack. This, due to my channel/talent and late years have been contacts and previous work. Now, youtube is filled with people playing avicii, deadmau5, swedish house mafia covers, but I can really assure you guys, growing up with some of those big names, watching them live before they even were big and being on YT, I know there were not that many people doing what I did, now there are zillions, and it is a big competition.

As in every music/art industry as someone else pointed out, either you gotta be Really fuggin good at what you do, be a known guy or do your Own thing which will lead to collabs and big projects.

My philosophy is that...if you love to do something, do it and ofc it's only you who limit yourself. You gotta work hard but even then, you can reach the level of not "being someone", even though you worked x zillion hours and still..
In that case, it's either your sound that's bad or there are people being better than you and it's a battle. But it's a tough game. I have done SOME cool stuff that I'm proud of and which people have loved, and I have been doing music all my life since I was a little kid, it's something I do when I'm finished with work or finished at school, comin home and playing a couple of hours on the piano because I love it and it feels great. Nothing stops me from doing that. But knowing that, my old iMac and my 2 old and new iPhones are FILLED with 100+ great pieces of piano that could be soundtrack-ready or album-ready in just a minute and it's all about time and processing, that's like...
difficult to "give up on". So, from my point of view, I will still doing what I love to do and have been doing as long as I remember. I will still produce new music and hope to do cool collabs in the future either for artists or filmmakers, and ofc I will put some effort in marketing myself and work on my sound. And if, IF, I get "big" that's just a big plus.
But as long as I am happy with what I'm doing, playing music and learn new stuff (songs, music making and how to make this music), I am happy.

Be realistic, keep on dreaming and do what you love to do, no one stops you and no one will stop you from Getting there, I believe if you want it you Can achieve it. It's all about believing in yourself, I think. I'm just glad I did not drop out from school, will finish my double masters degree in couple of weeks from a top ranked medical school (KI), so I will be good cash-wise for the future, but my dream and passion to write music will always be there and nothing will ever stop me from doing that. So it's good to know that you have a backup plan.
: ))


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## cc64 (May 10, 2016)

aitte said:


> Songs must be about 2 minutes long, and fully produced, mixed and mastered, and they expect it to be _great_ music (basically that you should give away your most incredible music hooks instead of selling those yourself). You can hear the quality they expect here: https://player.epidemicsound.com. Their pay scale begins at 600 SEK (~$74) per song. No royalties. But they increase it a bit if you produce quality for them for a long time, and they also give you 50% extra whenever they think a particular song is great. I've seen some forum posts reveal that they're making about 1500 SEK ($183) per song. But they also reveal that there's lots of "please change this, please change that" feedback and that it's hard to get a song approved. Most of their producers are students, who don't have to pay any rent yet...



Hej aitte,

just checked out a few songs on the "staff pick" playlist. Some of them sound really good, not like something that you would spit out in 2 hours or even 2 days.

Between 74$ and 180$?!? I mean even if they where paid 500$, once the singer is paid, calculate the time to record, arrange and mix. Plus you say that Epidemic asks for multiple corrections/re-writes?!? They're picky on top of everything? Wow...

Buyout, zero chance of recouping on royalties if your cut is successful?!? Wow, can't believe some people are desperate enough. Unless as you say they live in a 3rd world economy and even so, they'd still have to pay for their equipment/samples etc...

Guys/Gals don't give up your writer's shares unless you're getting very good upfront money, you're killing yourselves and eventually the industry.

Claude


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## dannymc (May 10, 2016)

> Hej aitte,
> 
> just checked out a few songs on the "staff pick" playlist. Some of them sound really good, not like something that you would spit out in 2 hours or even 2 days.
> 
> ...



this is disgusting. i'm not doing this long but i'd rather not make a penny than give up my writers share to these vultures. composers should be boycotting these types. 

Danny


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## mverta (May 10, 2016)

Prockamanisc said:


> Mike, I'm thinking that you mean diversify into non-musical fields as well as within the music industry, am I right? You've mentioned that in your masterclasses before.


Either. If you can stay within the industry, fantastic, and there are lots of avenues there to be sure. Just think, "Have talent - will travel." Write for everything, play on anything, teach, make tutorials, develop apps or libraries, do your own projects, make friends, and live life so you are an interesting person with something to say.


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## passsacaglia (May 10, 2016)

What about Game music and trailer music? Same thing?


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## Mundano (May 10, 2016)

you have only 1 Life. Live your Dreams! Don't surrender!
you live only in this time, the past doesn't exist anymore, the future doesn't exist yet, so dedicate all your energy for the present moment. Enjoy your present, enjoy your present Life, give all you can to achieve your Dreams. Your Life is worth it! What is the sense of your life? Don't bore your self with nonsense!

Huges! Kisses! Go, go, go!


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## RiffWraith (May 10, 2016)

cc64 said:


> Guys/Gals don't give up your writer's shares unless you're getting very good upfront money, you're killing yourselves and eventually the industry.



+1


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## dannymc (May 10, 2016)

i think if you have something to say musically then say it. then hope to find your audience. whether that results in you having a full time career matters alot less to me than being true to myself and writing from the heart. 

Danny


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## TimCox (May 10, 2016)

Baron Greuner said:


> I used to pep talk a band of 3 players when they were young and starting out, especially one of them. It doesn't do any harm to have those kind of fun fantasia and dreams when you're young. Plans tend not to be foremost but playing and writing the music is the key.


Hopes and dreams and thinking big are great and we had plenty of that. But when there's only one person trying to work on the steps to the big picture it doesn't help either!


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## Greg (May 10, 2016)

chillbot said:


> This is a good point. I guess it's sad to me we've gotten to a point where it is accepted that some shows "actually require a mish mash of styles". I have a hard time watching those shows.



Exactly, most TV is absolute shit and that requires all aspects of it to also be shit or it will become ironic. Hence the music.


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## RiffWraith (May 10, 2016)

Greg said:


> most TV is absolute shit and that requires all aspects of it to also be shit or it will become ironic. Hence the music.


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## dannymc (May 11, 2016)

> Exactly, most TV is absolute shit and that requires all aspects of it to also be shit or it will become ironic. Hence the music.



i'm curious to where you think composers should pitch their music if not tv? and actually i half agree with you, cable is mostly total rubbish but tv in the form of HBO etc have definitely surpassed the super hero shit that hollywood is determined to keep pushing out. 

Danny


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## Baron Greuner (May 11, 2016)

TimCox said:


> Hopes and dreams and thinking big are great and we had plenty of that. But when there's only one person trying to work on the steps to the big picture it doesn't help either!



Ah well you all have to put in the work equally and in group situations reliance can wind up on one member a lot if the time. But when you're starting out, I encourage anyone to dream a bit and generally have some fun.
In the case of the group I know since they were young lads really, they're still going strong.


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## aitte (May 12, 2016)

Thank you so much, everyone. I have been reading the discussion and thinking a lot, which is why I have been silent.

Your extra insights have showed me that the situation today is both better and much worse than before. Mainly much worse. It's easier to compose with great sound quality thanks to high-quality sample libraries, and it's easier to market (online, for free!). But it's harder to get the entry-level jobs since they just go to music libraries, and there's a LOT more competition for all custom jobs at all levels, and the pay is lower.

This has settled it. It's still possible to work primarily as a composer, but today's extreme difficulty is not worth pursuing it as a MAIN goal as a newcomer.

I am not going to pursue composing, _at all_. Instead, I will just make music privately as a hobby, while earning my income in other more lucrative ways, such as poledancing.

That way, I can have the cake (I love music) and eat it too (I need money). And if life drifts me towards composing after all, then sure, but I'll now officially drop all plans to pursue music as a source of income. It will be purely for FUN, in private. 

Goodbye everyone and thank you.
- aitte, in the year of the lord, 2016-05-12


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## jononotbono (May 12, 2016)

If you ever had to ask the question.


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## novaburst (May 12, 2016)

Is the industry as bad as it seems, really not sure if that the proper question to ask.

I would say is that there is a greater wider choice for people who want to hire, and that choice comes from the great army of bedroom producer/composer,and ever increasing number of self learned composers, a huge number of artist getting involved with DAW orchestra librarys and its getting bigger. meaning that prices you charge will get lower and lower because the guy next door is just as good if not better.


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## impressions (May 12, 2016)

what.about.theater work?? no one has mentioned that too.

it seems as if people are partly philosophical and part narrow minded about the whole concept of earning a living from music.

there are so many ways to make money from music, not that any of them are easy, but there are so many. I wish i had more time to pursue them. so its not a question of what to do, its more of how. and that is learned by experience.

are there still composers for theater? yes. are there still composers for films? yes. are there still composers for video games? yes. can you still make money from teaching and doing live shows? yes.
and that's just a small part of it. the real problem for beginners, and i remember it clearly in my case, was actually believing it is possible. and the reason its not possible for some people is not because of some statistical downfall of a market, its because they haven't created a market for themselves. they don't know it is possible. but yeah, sure, its HARD.


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## Daryl (May 13, 2016)

novaburst said:


> ...meaning that prices you charge will get lower and lower because the guy next door is just as good if not better.


Actually I think it's more a case of either the client not being able to hear the difference or that it is not worth spending money on the difference, because the end users (the public) won't notice or wouldn't care anyway.


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## Prockamanisc (May 13, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> If you ever had to ask the question




That's one of my favorite scenes from any movie. Completely true to me. I don't work as a composer because I have a choice. I deal with the state of my industry because I have to.


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## jononotbono (May 13, 2016)

Prockamanisc said:


> That's one of my favorite scenes from any movie. Completely true to me. I don't work as a composer because I have a choice. I deal with the state of my industry because I have to.




I couldn't agree more. There is no choice. For me there isn't anyway. Each to their own and all that!


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## Ashermusic (May 13, 2016)

I will tell you what I always tell young people:

If you can imagine yourself being happy doing anything else other than music for a living, do that. Because you are up against guys like me who cannot and we will out persevere you.


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## jeffc (May 13, 2016)

If you're going to let some random anonymous people on a message board influence if you're going to pursue music for a living, then wow, I would say probably a good choice. If it's a true calling and something that you 'have to do', then ignore all these opinions and do it. You've only got one life, so don't play it safe. 

As far as the state of the industry, I would venture to say if you asked the question 20 years ago, 10 years ago, you'd get the same kinds of answers. I don't think a pursuit of the arts as a career has ever been easy. Nor should it be. There are always people who have achieved some level of success, there are always many more who wish they did. There are incredibly generous successful people who give back, mentor, etc. There are successful people who feel threatened by newcomers and don't want to give back. There are tons of incredibly talented but not yet successful musicians and just as many really not that talented. 

I've had the opportunity to judge some entries for the Ascap Film/TV workshop and the quality of the entries is honestly just incredibly good. So good that it's hard to pick. I'd say 8 out 10 really good and competent, some cliche. 2 out of 10 just so good that I want to quit. And the irony is, I've been able to make a pretty good go of this career and I didn't even get in the workshop when I applied years ago.

So, it's my long winded way of saying, just find your own way and don't let someone else tell you not to do something. Because they may be wrong....


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## Ashermusic (May 13, 2016)

[QUOTE="jeffc, post: 3957985, member: 293"If it's a true calling and something that you 'have to do'[/QUOTE]

Kind of what I said, right? If not, then I failed to communicate that.

It helps to be a guy who feels "if i do not do this, I will die."


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## jononotbono (May 13, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> [QUOTE="jeffc, post: 3957985, member: 293"If it's a true calling and something that you 'have to do'



Kind of what I said, right? If not, then I failed to communicate that.

It helps to be a guy who feels "if i do not do this, I will die." [/QUOTE]

Exactly. I'm sure we're all saying the same thing! haha! My headache of the day is whether I should buy CS2 or 64gb of RAM! Sorry, I digress...


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## chrysshawk (May 13, 2016)

The more messed up any industry becomes, the greater is the breakthrough potential of new talent. If some art genre becomes stale, that's usually when a new genius appears. 
Fingers crossed.


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## aitte (May 13, 2016)

*Yo, guys!  I love all these comments about "don't quit music if it's in your blood!". That's the kind of passion I feel too. I wasn't saying I'd quit music altogether. In fact, my decision to skip the treadmill of trying to earn a primary living as a composer makes me feel a lot happier about music since I can completely take the financial side out of the artistry, thus meaning I have zero pressure to impress anyone else in the world or to create a specific flavor-of-the-day genre, and can instead just make any type of music for fun and because I love it, not because I need to.*


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## Ashermusic (May 13, 2016)

True, but then you will have limited time to spend doing so. It is a fair choice but as with all choices, walking towards something means walking away from something else.


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## Baron Greuner (May 13, 2016)

aitte said:


> * I wasn't saying I'd quit music altogether.*



I would.


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## Baron Greuner (May 13, 2016)

^

No just kidding!


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## givemenoughrope (May 13, 2016)

I've tried to quit music a few times and I can't.


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## AlexRuger (May 13, 2016)

Eek, guys. Alright. Your attitudes about this are starting to get a little mean and closed-minded. This is an attitude I see all over this forum, and it drives me nuts.

*The assumption that if you ever question whether or not you want to do this, then you should just quit because clearly your heart isn't in it is such bullshit.* I've questioned whether or not I want to do this a few times since moving to LA. It _is _hard--harder than I could have ever imagined--and even if you're completely devoted to the work, it's smart to question if it's possible to live the kind of life you want to lead while doing this for a living. 

Questioning yourself, what you want out of life, your priorities, is healthy no matter the situation. One could say that the priest whose faith remains untested doesn't have faith. I myself have always come back to life as a composer after questioning it--it truly is "what I have to do," and each time I question it I only end up strengthening my answer--but to say I can't imagine a life doing something else is downright closed-minded. 

Of course I can! I'm a human being who has interests. I'd love to work as a programmer at some point--a path I'm arriving to slowly through Kontakt scripting, game audio implementation, and Csound. I have a huge interest in environmental science. I'm building a MIDI controller because I have an interest in electronics and woodworking. Sure, my bread-and-butter, as well as passion, is composing, but that profession and love can flow into so many different areas, all of which can be their own professions/passions. 

Life is big and interesting, and if someone makes the completely logical decision to not pursue something _professionally _because doing so would sacrifice higher priorities (such as a higher standard of living, fewer/more stable working hours), then more power to them. How many composers have been divorced because of the long hours? How many of you are worried about money right now? 

To respond to someone's perfectly reasonable questioning of the obviously-bad state of the industry with "If you're going to let some random anonymous people on a message board influence if you're going to pursue music for a living, then wow, I would say probably a good choice" is just mean. Obviously we aren't random people. Many of us are working composers. Cut it out with the cavalier pseudo-badass judgement and add something of use to the world.

As jeffc said, "You've only got one life, so don't play it safe." One could argue the opposite. If aitte sees the writing on the wall and doesn't like what it says, getting out before you're in too deep is the better option. From that perspective, of course.

And Jay, aitte might be spending less time on making music, but one could argue the quality of the time spent will go up. We've all worked on projects we hate just to pay the bills.

Aitte seems very comfortable in his/her own skin and completely level-headed. You've joined the company of Charles Ives. Nothing wrong with that.


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## Ashermusic (May 13, 2016)

Alex, when either individually or collectively, I am always going to answer forthrightly based on the conclusions I have reached after doing this for over 45 years. Since life is not a one size fits all proposition, I always expect and am indeed glad of the fact that others will feel differently. That should go without saying, I would think. 

But there is in my opinion zero value in everybody coming on and saying something like, "whatever path you take is fine, blah, blah,." 

So I say what I believe knowing full well that others will see it differently. And I welcome that


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## owenave (May 13, 2016)

gsilbers said:


> Epidemic Sound seems to not even do broadcast royalties for composers. I wonder how much they pay composers upfront for this. It would have to be more than $200.
> That's normally not the case as most libraries make their money from broadcast royalties, which they share with composers 50/50.
> 
> if that library is paying $200 upfront and composers don't get royalties then that is not good at all and I have no idea why anyone would place their music there unless its very crappy music.
> ...


Sometimes you can find someone who already has a contract with a music library as a composer. 
Back in late 90's I worked through another composer who was working for "Hollywood Film Music" library
which later got bought by BMG. According to the theme of that months project he would get $500 a cut plus performance royalties. He would then pay others who wrote for him $250 a track plus performance royalties. If you wrote that he wanted you could make an easy $1,000 a month plus performance royalties. IF it is a major library you can make some major money on BMI or ASCAP. According to whether it is for a Major Network or cable network determines the rate. And 10 years later I am still getting a nice surprise on a BMI check. For example a few seconds of background music on "Dancing with the Stars" can add up to $400 to $600. While a few seconds on a cable network show might be $2.


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## Tanuj Tiku (May 13, 2016)

aitte said:


> *Yo, guys!  I love all these comments about "don't quit music if it's in your blood!". That's the kind of passion I feel too. I wasn't saying I'd quit music altogether. In fact, my decision to skip the treadmill of trying to earn a primary living as a composer makes me feel a lot happier about music since I can completely take the financial side out of the artistry, thus meaning I have zero pressure to impress anyone else in the world or to create a specific flavor-of-the-day genre, and can instead just make any type of music for fun and because I love it, not because I need to.*




If you are happy with that, nobody should be able to convince you otherwise. And your decision is perfectly valid. But, I can tell you from experience that you should not underestimate the power of rejection, deadlines and motivation to put food on the table, while trying to do deal with everything, writing music you want to write. 

It is not easy, nor as I understand it has ever been in the past. It is not about quitting. But, it is all part of the journey of a musician and you learn a lot of things from all the bad things being described here. Initially, a lot of those rejections are valid actually.

You have to take some risks and go where you are uncomfortable going. It does something to you. Sure, you will fail, most assuredly but you will get better and learn from various experiences. Also, the world of music is not all bad. Certainly, on forums it seems worse than it is. 

When you are 'in' the industry, believe me the forum will seem a little far from reality, except for a few very good points that have been made by people here who have been doing it for a long time and are very successful whilst holding on to the quality of their music. 

IMHO, you cannot have a real view of any industry, unless you give it a go and are actually part of it. 

It _is_ possible but it was not easy for these guys or any of the top composers around the world, _why_ would it be for you?

I had to pay my bills too, I had some support but there were days I was not sure where the next job was coming from or the next pay check? But, eventually it did come together and now I make all of my living just from music. It is not a huge amount but its letting me live a good life and write lots of music.


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## charlieclouser (May 13, 2016)

impressions said:


> the real problem for beginners, and i remember it clearly in my case, was actually believing it is possible.



I never understood that it might NOT be possible. Nobody EVER told me that.


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## impressions (May 14, 2016)

charlieclouser said:


> I never understood that it might NOT be possible. Nobody EVER told me that.


everyone to their own. nothing wrong with both. it just strengthened my attitude that i have to succeed.


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## charlieclouser (May 14, 2016)

impressions said:


> everyone to their own. nothing wrong with both. it just strengthened my attitude that i have to succeed.



Well, by what I said, I mean this: My first job making music for money was working as the number three man of a three-man team scoring a CBS crime series in the 1980s. We did it with less gear than I had at my apartment, and the three of us kept not-torturous hours, went for bike rides, smoked joints, ate long and lavish dinners, goofed around, etc. The number one man (Cameron Allan) was frequently asleep on the couch. Just three guys with a rig that would be laughable by today's standards, making cool sounds and dark music every week. So my experience was pretty much the opposite of a situation like Remote Control, where there's an army of guys toiling brutally and another army clawing at the doors to get in. It was more like, "this is a fun way to use our shared cultural influences, musical talents, and synth programming expertise... why not do this for a while?" 

After that series ended and we did few movie-of-the-week things, Cameron went off to make documentaries, learn to weld, hang out at Speed Week in Bonneville, etc. He was well-rounded. He had a life. He worked to live, as opposed to living to work. He moved to Tokyo for a while, went back home to Sydney, etc. What he brought to the table was the outlook and experiences gained from a LIFE WELL LIVED. He was not in some bubble, surrounded by movie and tv people all the time, only thinking and talking about his career, opportunities, competition. To be blunt, he couldn't give a toss about that stuff. He'd rather live modestly, listen to some Brian Eno, go to the museum, and work when the opportunity presented itself. If not, screw it... he's off to Tokyo for a few months. 

Cameron had these four big Hardigg injection-molded shipping cases, like what Stinger missiles are shipped in, each the size of a refrigerator, and everything he owned had to fit in those four cases. They were watertight, shippable, fork-liftable, air-droppable, and his books, bookshelves, music gear, clothes, EVERYTHING fit in them. He could evac in 6 hours. And I've seen him do it. Feel like bailing out? Call Rocket Cargo and arrange for same-day pickup. Now THAT'S livin'!

So, to me... it all looked so easy, like an ideal life. Nobody ever said to me, "Well, kid, if you really want this, be prepared to have no life, no time for family, wife, kids, etc." Those words were never spoken to me. If somebody said that to me, I'd have thought they were full of it. I'd be like, "Then why are you doing this? That ain't no way to live." I spent my twenties watching Cameron do pretty much what he felt like doing, pretty much all the time - and I thought, "That's what I want to do". So I did.

I guess it really matters who your mentors are, and how they choose to live their life.

If they have one, that is....


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## Jimmy Hellfire (May 14, 2016)

That was a nice read @charlieclouser, thanks for that.

EDIT: just realized while typing your name who I'm talking to. Have a bunch of stuff in my record shelf with your name on it.


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## novaburst (May 14, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> walking towards something means walking away from something else.



Word..............this is so so true


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## Jimmy Hellfire (May 14, 2016)

I'm down for some of that real deep stuff.

Left ... it's like right, but the other way.

Why do feet smell, but noses run?


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## InLight-Tone (May 14, 2016)

charlieclouser said:


> Well, by what I said, I mean this: My first job making music for money was working as the number three man of a three-man team scoring a CBS crime series in the 1980s. We did it with less gear than I had at my apartment, and the three of us kept not-torturous hours, went for bike rides, smoked joints, ate long and lavish dinners, goofed around, etc. The number one man (Cameron Allan) was frequently asleep on the couch. Just three guys with a rig that would be laughable by today's standards, making cool sounds and dark music every week. So my experience was pretty much the opposite of a situation like Remote Control, where there's an army of guys toiling brutally and another army clawing at the doors to get in. It was more like, "this is a fun way to use our shared cultural influences, musical talents, and synth programming expertise... why not do this for a while?"
> 
> After that series ended and we did few movie-of-the-week things, Cameron went off to make documentaries, learn to weld, hang out at Speed Week in Bonneville, etc. He was well-rounded. He had a life. He worked to live, as opposed to living to work. He moved to Tokyo for a while, went back home to Sydney, etc. What he brought to the table was the outlook and experiences gained from a LIFE WELL LIVED. He was not in some bubble, surrounded by movie and tv people all the time, only thinking and talking about his career, opportunities, competition. To be blunt, he couldn't give a toss about that stuff. He'd rather live modestly, listen to some Brian Eno, go to the museum, and work when the opportunity presented itself. If not, screw it... he's off to Tokyo for a few months.
> 
> ...



All the wisdom anyone needs in it that post right there. Be careful what you wish for and focus on, because you are almost guaranteed to get it. Thank you Charlie!


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## Ashermusic (May 14, 2016)

charlieclouser said:


> Well, by what I said, I mean this: My first job making music for money was working as the number three man of a three-man team scoring a CBS crime series in the 1980s. We did it with less gear than I had at my apartment, and the three of us kept not-torturous hours, went for bike rides, smoked joints, ate long and lavish dinners, goofed around, etc. The number one man (Cameron Allan) was frequently asleep on the couch. Just three guys with a rig that would be laughable by today's standards, making cool sounds and dark music every week. So my experience was pretty much the opposite of a situation like Remote Control, where there's an army of guys toiling brutally and another army clawing at the doors to get in. It was more like, "this is a fun way to use our shared cultural influences, musical talents, and synth programming expertise... why not do this for a while?"
> 
> After that series ended and we did few movie-of-the-week things, Cameron went off to make documentaries, learn to weld, hang out at Speed Week in Bonneville, etc. He was well-rounded. He had a life. He worked to live, as opposed to living to work. He moved to Tokyo for a while, went back home to Sydney, etc. What he brought to the table was the outlook and experiences gained from a LIFE WELL LIVED. He was not in some bubble, surrounded by movie and tv people all the time, only thinking and talking about his career, opportunities, competition. To be blunt, he couldn't give a toss about that stuff. He'd rather live modestly, listen to some Brian Eno, go to the museum, and work when the opportunity presented itself. If not, screw it... he's off to Tokyo for a few months.
> 
> ...



I also worked for Cameron just before he packed it in I orchestrated and conducted a string section for the mini series "JFK: Reckless Youth."

On that show, he was more of a "project manager" than a composer.

But like you say, he also had other things he wanted to do so he moved from LA and went off to do something else, but i am still here.


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## charlieclouser (May 14, 2016)

Heh. I was working with Cameron on "JFK: Reckless Youth" too. I think that was the last thing we did together before I went off to play at being a rock star for a decade or so. We did stay in touch the whole time though, and reunited to work together on the FOX series "Fastlane" some fifteen years later. I don't believe I ever saw Cameron play a musical instrument in all the shows we did together. 

He'd doze off in the comfy chaise cradling the SuperSoaker™ - but he'd wake up and douse you with a blast, say something like, "Not so many sixteenth notes! Eighths, eighths...." and then doze off again. Fun times.


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## AlexRuger (May 14, 2016)

charlieclouser said:


> Nobody ever said to me, "Well, kid, if you really want this, be prepared to have no life, no time for family, wife, kids, etc." Those words were never spoken to me. If somebody said that to me, I'd have thought they were full of it. I'd be like, "Then why are you doing this? That ain't no way to live." I spent my twenties watching Cameron do pretty much what he felt like doing, pretty much all the time - and I thought, "That's what I want to do". So I did.
> 
> *I guess it really matters who your mentors are, and how they choose to live their life.*



This is so true. I'm incredibly fortunate to count Inon Zur as a mentor of mine, and he gets massive scores for massive games done with zero ghost writers, and still has time to coach his kid's basketball team. Total badass, and has showed me that it's possible to live a rich and full life while also writing music for a living.


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## KEnK (May 15, 2016)

charlieclouser said:


> I guess it really matters who your mentors are, and how they choose to live their life.
> 
> If they have one, that is....


Well- That lovely tale just shows how much things have changed for the worse.
I've also been a pro musician for an incredibly long time- (as was my Grandad)
So I know and lived the reality of "Things Ain't What They Used to Be".
Look at how many "A listers" moan about not having a life-
In my direct experience the devolution of Music as Work is entirely related to the advent of computer tech.
The Rat Race to the Bottom. etc
As to film music, this is in part related to the jack off style editing that happens practically all the way to the 1st screening.
No way that would happen w/ razor blades and tape-
So music has become reduced to wooshes and arpeggios- great advancement.
I could go on & on but we all know this stuff...

k


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## Ned Bouhalassa (May 15, 2016)

Thanks for the terrific, enlightening post Charlie - you rock!!


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## charlieclouser (May 15, 2016)

Good point KEnK - I just had to reconform half a show three days before the mix, and I've been doing revisions


KEnK said:


> Well- That lovely tale just shows how much things have changed for the worse.
> I've also been a pro musician for an incredibly long time- (as was my Grandad)
> So I know and lived the reality of "Things Ain't What They Used to Be".
> Look at how many "A listers" moan about not having a life-
> ...



I think you're absolutely right - digital tech has allowed us to incredible things, but it's also allowed producers to re-cut a scene one day before the dub, upload you a "re-locked" cut, and expect new music to be done in a flash and uploaded that night. They see how fast the tech works, and they think the creativity also runs at SSD speeds, which isn't always the case.


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## mc_deli (May 15, 2016)

It's not what you know...

I had kinda the opposite experience from CC's story. As a child, I was surrounded by unsuccessful, frustrated musicians. As a young adult I was surrounded by unsuccessful. frustrated musicians. Now I am disenfranchised, and in the wrong place geographically. I have been conditioned to think that consistent musical fulfilment is not possible. Though I have experienced it fleetingly.

Of course, anything is possible, in the face of whatever the state of the industry.

But good mentoring makes a lot of difference. I have had amazing mentors in other walks of life but precious few in music and not recently and not enough.


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## givemenoughrope (May 15, 2016)

I think the takeaway here is that we all need to ride our bikes, smoke joints and eat more.

edit-only half joking


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## KEnK (May 15, 2016)

mc_deli said:


> I have been conditioned to think that consistent musical fulfilment is not possible. Though I have experienced it fleetingly.


Personally I've had my share of good fortune and good times-
But what has happened to Music (post computer tech)
has practically erased the incredible value it used to have in people's lives.

For this reason I've moved more towards live performance-
where I can actually reach people on an emotional level-
and attempt to remind them of the value of the Human Musician, playing Music in Person.
That's become my quest, Quixotic as it is

k


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## KEnK (May 15, 2016)

charlieclouser said:


> Good point KEnK


Thanks for saying that Mr Clouser.
I thought I might just be "pooping" on everybody's parade-
but we're in a very harsh "non- or anti-reality" now

k


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## dgburns (May 15, 2016)

charlieclouser said:


> Good point KEnK - I just had to reconform half a show three days before the mix, and I've been doing revisions
> 
> 
> I think you're absolutely right - digital tech has allowed us to incredible things, but it's also allowed producers to re-cut a scene one day before the dub, upload you a "re-locked" cut, and expect new music to be done in a flash and uploaded that night. They see how fast the tech works, and they think the creativity also runs at SSD speeds, which isn't always the case.



Ok,I've been avoiding this thread cause it's a depressing title.

Thing is,we are living in the 2nd golden age of television.In Toronto alone,the shooting spaces are packed,business is booming,and expanding.I think the same for elsewhere.Post is struggling a bit due to tech acting as a deflationary agent,but there is more production happening then ever.More people working in formal media then at any time in recent history I think.I don't have the numbers on hand,but I see many good quality shows coming across the wire,and expanding emerging markets that want the content.
I'm seeing less reality shows,and more scripted dramas,of differing genres.Much more expensive to make.but I also keep hearing about the " netflixisation" of the industry.I take it that's a good thing.Content costs are going up,and companies are eager to be competitive in being the destination for the most in demand content.

The thing that has me scratching my head is the place music/score belongs in this really fast changing world.Scores are all over the place stylewise.and just like in the songs/artist market,it seems that anything goes.It's not like there's this one unifiying style that defines our times.But maybe that's a good thing in that we can co-exist with this diversity that's going on.Any given channel has a world of different music going on,and it's all good by me.

We all know that the tech makes it easier to create music,but what's harder is to infuse something of your personal dna in your music so that it comes across despite the tech.

my two cents


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## charlieclouser (May 15, 2016)

dgburns - I agree that I'm not seeing a slowdown in tv and film, at least here in Hollywood - there's shows all over the freaking place. I'm on two at once and there's plenty more where that came from. What I'm not so sure about is what the back-end looks like on Netflix, Amazon, and Hulu original series... I haven't done one yet and I don't want to stray too far from good ol' network tv until I can see what the BMI numbers look like on the streaming stuff. If the back-end is small-to-nonexistent, then the up-front fees had better be 4x what network are paying. I haven't seen any real numbers and I don't know anyone who's doing a series on those platforms and can tell me what's up.... but I'd be interested to know because that segment is getting too large to be ignored.


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## Mundano (May 15, 2016)

a real artist gives it's life for what he/she loves. In my case, the music. I have given my life for it, and the rewards are huger than any money i can earn. Period.


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## Mundano (May 15, 2016)

...if you look for money, go to the bank!  (sarcastic)


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## rgames (May 15, 2016)

One other point to consider - as said above I think there's still lots of work in the film/TV world but there's also the video game world that didn't exist 50 years ago. And the video game market size surpassed the film+music market size last year (maybe year before).

So, yeah, there's good evidence that there's a *lot* more work than there used to be.

If only I knew anything about video games...

rgames


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## dgburns (May 15, 2016)

charlieclouser said:


> dgburns - I agree that I'm not seeing a slowdown in tv and film, at least here in Hollywood - there's shows all over the freaking place. I'm on two at once and there's plenty more where that came from. What I'm not so sure about is what the back-end looks like on Netflix, Amazon, and Hulu original series... I haven't done one yet and I don't want to stray too far from good ol' network tv until I can see what the BMI numbers look like on the streaming stuff. If the back-end is small-to-nonexistent, then the up-front fees had better be 4x what network are paying. I haven't seen any real numbers and I don't know anyone who's doing a series on those platforms and can tell me what's up.... but I'd be interested to know because that segment is getting too large to be ignored.



Agreed,the back end appears to have been a casualty in this move towards streaming.There's a built in mindset on the part of producers to price out music based on the backend value.That's either going to have to change,or we will lose a major source of revenue.I've often promised myself that if the resids diminished substancially,I would look elsewhere to make a living.I've gotten in the habit of trying to value any given series based on my "best guess" back end income.I've "added value" in the productions on the hope/expectation that the investment would be returned financially.So far I've stayed on the positive side of the balance sheet on that front...
I haven't been involved with any streaming show yet.I'm sure it's bound to happen at some point.I'm trying to stay positive however.

cheers


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## InLight-Tone (May 16, 2016)

rgames said:


> One other point to consider - as said above I think there's still lots of work in the film/TV world but there's also the video game world that didn't exist 50 years ago. And the video game market size surpassed the film+music market size last year (maybe year before).
> 
> So, yeah, there's good evidence that there's a *lot* more work than there used to be.
> 
> ...



And for those just starting out there is a huge market for YouTube music. There are people on AJ making six figures a year cranking out primarily YouTube soundtracks. The industry is fine, it's just changed.


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## Ashermusic (May 16, 2016)

InLight-Tone said:


> And for those just starting out there is a huge market for YouTube music. There are people on AJ making six figures a year cranking out primarily YouTube soundtracks. The industry is fine, it's just changed.



What pray tell is AJ?


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## InLight-Tone (May 16, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> What pray tell is AJ?


Audio Jungle, ya not a goal for the "pro", but earning a living composing music is the goal, n'est pas?


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## Ashermusic (May 16, 2016)

InLight-Tone said:


> Audio Jungle, ya not a goal for the "pro", but earning a living composing music is the goal, n'est pas?



I don't look down my nose at anybody who pays me to write music.


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## InLight-Tone (May 16, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> I don't look down my nose at anybody who pays me to write music.


Ah, OK. The trick on AJ is repeat sales, licenses. Though you only get a mere $19 a track or more depending on use, the market there is buying those tracks repeatedly with the top guys selling 50-100 per track in 6 months time so it ads up...


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## Baron Greuner (May 16, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> What pray tell is AJ?



He's talking about Royalty Free music Jay.


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## Ashermusic (May 16, 2016)

Baron Greuner said:


> He's talking about Royalty Free music Jay.



Ah, that is different then, not for me.


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## Daryl (May 16, 2016)

The problem with AJ is that although they advertise these people making money, nobody has ever met one of them....!


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## oscarlb (May 16, 2016)

Six figures on AudioJungle?...


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## InLight-Tone (May 16, 2016)

Daryl said:


> The problem with AJ is that although they advertise these people making money, nobody has ever met one of them....!


It's simple math to look at how many years they have been composing there and the total tracks they've sold. Even if you underestimate at their cut of $9.50, many of them are earning handsomely. Me thinks that musicians starve by choice. Check out Pink Zebra for instance...


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## Daryl (May 16, 2016)

InLight-Tone said:


> It's simple math to look at how many years they have been composing there and the total tracks they've sold. Even if you underestimate at their cut of $9.50, many of them are earning handsomely. Me thinks that musicians starve by choice. Check out Pink Zebra for instance...


Yes, but are these real people?


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## InLight-Tone (May 16, 2016)

Daryl said:


> Yes, but are these real people?



Maybe I'm gullible, but these threads of doom and gloom don't sit right with me and yes I believe these are real people as I've interacted with them on the forums and what not. 

There is so much wealth in today's world it boggles the mind. Even the homeless are in a state of pseudo prosperity.

There's tons of young twenty somethings becoming millionaires on YouTube with advertising dollars. I have a channel, not associated with InLight-Tone, making around $2000 a month, doing 2 videos a week...


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## Baron Greuner (May 16, 2016)

I just had a massive senior moment. I thought Pink Zebra was a synthesizer and spent ten minutes trying to find it.

It was the lure of all that money.


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## rgames (May 16, 2016)

Daryl said:


> The problem with AJ is that although they advertise these people making money, nobody has ever met one of them....!


I agree that six figures seems a stretch but I could easily see someone with the right kind of music making low-five-figures a year from a RF site.

An "OK" living for a young person in Europe or Canada, a marginal living for a young person in the US, and a decent supplement to an established musician anywhere in the world.

Combined with teaching, performing and other sources of income it definitely lends itself to a decent living.

rgames


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## AlexRuger (May 16, 2016)

InLight-Tone said:


> Even the homeless are in a state of pseudo prosperity.


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## InLight-Tone (May 16, 2016)

AlexRuger said:


>



i.e., a little over 150 years ago WE were scratching our way across the country risking our lives, thus the homeless quote. I was just in Santa Barbara for 3 weeks, and the homeless there are truly upscale with nicer clothing than me, all hip looking. It's all about perspective sprinkled with a little gratitude for how much wealth WE are enjoying...


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## Greg (May 16, 2016)

InLight-Tone said:


> i.e., a little over 150 years ago WE were scratching our way across the country risking our lives, thus the homeless quote. I was just in Santa Barbara for 3 weeks, and the homeless there are truly upscale with nicer clothing than me, all hip looking. It's all about perspective sprinkled with a little gratitude for how much wealth WE are enjoying...



You sound like a sociopathic CEO... America has so much income inequality that I am ashamed to see anyone homeless, wearing Nikes or not.


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## AlexRuger (May 16, 2016)

InLight-Tone said:


> I was just in Santa Barbara for 3 weeks, and the homeless there are truly upscale with nicer clothing than me, all hip looking.



Are you sure those weren't just hipsters? 

And, I mean, regardless of how hip they look, they still _don't have homes. _Hardly what I'd called prosperous.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (May 16, 2016)

InLight-Tone said:


> i.e., a little over 150 years ago WE were scratching our way across the country risking our lives, thus the homeless quote. I was just in Santa Barbara for 3 weeks, and the homeless there are truly upscale with nicer clothing than me, all hip looking. It's all about perspective sprinkled with a little gratitude for how much wealth WE are enjoying...



That sounded like those people who see the wretched and forlorn masses of refugees on the border crossings and indignantly deplore that they carry cell phones with them.


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## InLight-Tone (May 16, 2016)

I


Greg said:


> You sound like a sociopathic CEO... America has so much income inequality that I am ashamed to see anyone homeless, wearing Nikes or not.



I'm hardly a sociopathic CEO, I live fulltime in an RV by choice. One, I hate being in one place for any length of time too much to see and, two nobody needs all that sprawling indoor space, the funhouse is OUTSIDE...


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## InLight-Tone (May 16, 2016)

AlexRuger said:


> Are you sure those weren't just hipsters?
> 
> And, I mean, regardless of how hip they look, they still _don't have homes. _Hardly what I'd called prosperous.



They had stylely carts...


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