# Killing two PC slave computers with one Monster Computer



## JohnG (Jan 13, 2019)

Hi all,

I'm hoping for comments and suggestions. Going for a low latency (128 buffer) knock-out on this sample player PC slave computer. I do use some FX, delay mostly, on the samples but not lots, so its primary function is simply to play back samples at a low latency. It would run VE Pro as host with Kontakt and PLAY instances inside:

1. Boot drive: Crucial Mx500 SSD;

2. OS: Windows 10 Pro OEM system builder;

3. Sample Drives: two Intel Optane SSD 905P drives (960GB each);

4. Corsair Vengeance RGB Pro 64GB (4x16) RAM 2666MHz;

5. Noctua NH-D15 cooler;

6. Corsair RMX850x power supply;

7. Gigabyte H370 HD3 Mobo (it has a PCI slot which accommodates an RME Hammerfall Card);

8. Intel i9-9900k CPU;

9. Case -- thinking about a "be quiet!" case but not passionate about that one way or another; plus a basic lite-on optical tray.

Total cost is about $4k.

It would replace two existing PCs, serving brass, choir and woodwind samples. While in their day they were impressive, their BIOS updates ceased in 2011. So I'm thinking maybe something new would help.

Each of the existing computers has 24GB of RAM and i7 950 3.07GHz CPUs but I can't get the brass one in particular to drop below 512 buffer, which I'm hoping I can reduce with a new computer.

All comments welcome.

Thank you,

John

PS -- I use onboard graphics, so no GPU card.


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## Nathanael Iversen (Jan 13, 2019)

Are the libraries Kontakt based? If so, I don't know that you'll get any extra performance for spending so much on SSD drives. Going with Crucial or Samsung could cut your build price almost in half.


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## novaburst (Jan 13, 2019)

JohnG said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm hoping for comments and suggestions. Going for a low latency (128 buffer) knock-out on this sample player PC slave computer. I do use some FX, delay mostly, on the samples but not lots, so its primary function is simply to play back samples at a low latency. It would run VE Pro as host with Kontakt and PLAY instances inside:
> 
> ...



The stats say it will work, some times real life says different i would go ahead and build it and see if there is any advantages, and indeed see if you can get lower buffs.

I do believe you can get same specs for cheaper so maybe look around.


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## wst3 (Jan 13, 2019)

The sample drives caught my eye as well. I'm no expert, but I have SSDs from Samsung, Crucial, and Sandisk. I have done tests and near as I can tell none of them are the bottleneck with my current machine (Intel Core i7 4790K @ 4.00GHz, ASRock Z97 Extreme4, 32GB Dual-Channel DDR3). Might mean my current machine needs a face lift? Keeping that PCI slot is a challenge, I'm impressed that you found one. Now I need to look at that too<G>!


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## JohnG (Jan 13, 2019)

Nathanael Iversen said:


> Are the libraries Kontakt based?



Most libraries are Kontakt but I also use PLAY for most of my choir libraries and some brass as well.

Certainly, $2,400 for Optane drives is a lot; if I could get latency down to 128 or even 64 it would be worth it to me, but if it's not going to help much naturally it's money better spent elsewhere.



wst3 said:


> ...near as I can tell none of them [SSDs] are the bottleneck with my current machine



Maybe the Optane is a waste. I have one on my new strings machine and it's allowed me to reduce the buffer to 256 while working even though I often use two or more mic positions on strings and I use a lot of strings -- but I upgraded everything at once so I don't know how much can be attributed to the Optane. 

Possibly zero.


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## JohnG (Jan 13, 2019)

wst3 said:


> I'm impressed that you found one [a MOBO with a PCI slot]



took....a....long....time

And then @Nathanael Iversen came up with another one from MSI. There are a few out there but this one is full ATX instead of microATX, plus it claims to accommodate the i9 series. I wrote to Gigabyte to confirm this; sometimes it does, theoretically, but you have to install a lesser chip first, then update the BIOS and only _then_ will it work with the new series. So best to confirm. This MOBO also is listed on Intel's site as compatible with the i9 so that is encouraging.


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## Nathanael Iversen (Jan 13, 2019)

Maybe build the PC without the Optane drives? Move your current SSD's over. See what latency you can get. You can always buy those later. (I am assuming you already have SSD's in the old one). SSD's are one place that we get more real time performance than our software can use. It seems Omnisphere will load MUCH faster if the drive is faster, but Kontakt is CPU limited and won't saturate a modern SSD no matter what you do. I am not certain about Play.


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## JohnG (Jan 13, 2019)

Nathanael Iversen said:


> Maybe build the PC without the Optane drives?



Thanks Nathanael. That seems to be the consensus, though part of my motivation is that I have a grab-bag of small SSDs in each of the existing computers and I was picturing a combination of simplicity and PCIe speed.

It's a lot of extra cost for them, so maybe I'll back off

Anyone have any comments on anything else?


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Jan 13, 2019)

Considering that this is a sample machine, you may benefit from going with one of the slower i9's with more cores. 

Those corsair power supplies are nice since the fan stays off until you hit a certain load. I'd suggest going with any case and replacing the fans with Noctua ULN fans using the ULN adapters.


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## JohnG (Jan 13, 2019)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> one of the slower i9's with more cores



Maybe -- there seem to be differences of opinions about core speed. I thought @EvilDragon was a proponent of faster cores, while @Mishabou seems to favour lots of cores.


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## Nathanael Iversen (Jan 13, 2019)

JohnG said:


> Thanks Nathanael. That seems to be the consensus, though part of my motivation is that I have a grab-bag of small SSDs in each of the existing computers and I was picturing a combination of simplicity and PCIe speed.
> 
> It's a lot of extra cost for them, so maybe I'll back off
> 
> Anyone have any comments on anything else?



Well, 2TB SSD drives are under $300, so if you just need to consolidate.... I've been going through and replacing all the 1TB drives with 2TB ones...


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## JohnG (Jan 13, 2019)

I have a bunch of 228s. Really small.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Jan 13, 2019)

JohnG said:


> Maybe -- there seem to be differences of opinions about core speed. I thought @EvilDragon was a proponent of faster cores, while @Mishabou seems to favour lots of cores.


For plugins and things like that, definitely faster cores. For just samples, I think more cores might be better. Kontakt/VEP do a fine job of multithreading and they really don't need much in terms of CPU performance. That's why so many people are fine with computers that are 2.6GHz but with a bunch of cores (like dual xeons). Try mixing on that and you're not going to have a good time. I built a 14 core i9 for someone and even with intense mockups, the CPU % barely moves. The 14 core one is already pretty fast but definitely not the fastest.

Edit: In my case, where I'm mainly doing mastering and rarely mockups, I could benefit from upgrading to something faster (currently a 3.33GHz 5820k). I max out my performance with plugins but only a single core will really be doing anything.


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## JohnG (Jan 14, 2019)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> For just samples, I think more cores might be better.



You may be correct. 

I'm conflicted on this, however, because it seems that some libraries are using a lot of scripting these days. I can't tell what the issue is but I'm tired of having to use larger buffers.

I have an entire i7 sample playback computer with four 3.xGHz cores and hyper threading turned on, and am unable to play back brass at a buffer of less than 512. I do write a lot of parts -- often three trumpet, three trombone three or four French Horns, tuba and sometimes a bit more.

With SSDs seems as though this should not choke but it does every time.


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## Nathanael Iversen (Jan 14, 2019)

I'd suggest not overthinking it. 8 cores at 4.5+Ghz will easily cover the load you presently have. Each of those cores is several generations newer and stronger than the cores you are replacing. So you WILL get better real-time performance. 

8 Cores can run quite a bit. I use my old cheese-grater MacPro as a VEP slave at this point. It is 8 cores @ 2.4Ghz, with 64GB of RAM. It runs well over 2,000 Kontakt voices - which I don't exhaust running strings and winds and HZ Percussion for busy orchestral writing. My template loads 60GB of samples into that box. 

The highest voice counts in the benchmarks are on the extremely large CPU's at 256 or 512 buffer. As the buffer comes down, the huge CPU's still have an advantage, but it is less pronounced. 

For 64GB of samples, 8 core is a bit of a sweet spot. We can now get super fast CPUs (i9-9900K), with great real-time performance AND a lot of cores. I don't think you can go wrong from this processor up, as long as you can overclock above 4Ghz. It's very hard to argue with the value of this processor. 

I think with 128GB of samples, having more grunt would be useful in terms of cores. But even then, it is not that much different to build another box vs. buy more expensive CPU's. A bit of a tossup. 

I think this is why Mishabou and others can use these MASSSIVE Xeon boxes. If the DAW portion has enough realtime on the few cores (out of 24-48) it needs, there is plenty of grunt to do VEP/Kontakt stuff, which is not as demanding of realtime (unless you want VERY low buffer). I know with Cubase,you can limit it to whatever number of cores you want, and then VEP could have free-reign with the rest of them. But just because it works, doesn't mean that a cheaper distributed setup wouldn't work just as well. I suspect there is a big tax just to work in one box.


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## Nathanael Iversen (Jan 14, 2019)

One other thought on power supply. I am running one of the SeaSonic silent PSU's in my DAW (520W). https://seasonic.com/prime-titanium-fanless (The current version is here). Completely fanless, more than enough power for music computers. I don't game on mine. That said, I had a 750W Corsair supply that the fan never ran on, because it never got hot enough. You really can't go very wrong if you are buying quality supplies, but I just like the idea of a PSU that CAN'T make noise!


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## JohnG (Jan 14, 2019)

Thanks everyone. I have followed consensus and skipped the Optane drives for the time being, accepting the recommendation of those who argued that "regular" SSDs normally don't slow anything down.

As a footnote, I can hardly believe how not-expensive 1TB SSDs are now.

I appreciate all the advice!

John


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## chimuelo (Jan 14, 2019)

Well you’ll need a nice new Samsung LCD, not the 20 foot one I stood under but this one.
Forward to 5:10 and wait 3-5 seconds.
If this wasn’t meant for DAWs then somebody’s a happy gamer.


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## JohnG (Jan 17, 2019)

Argh.

So I checked Intel's website and the mobo above is listed on the "Compatible Board(s) for Processor i9-9900K."

Good, right?

But no! In order to install the i9 CPU, Gigabyte informs me that I first would have to install an i8 CPU and update the board's BIOS. Then, hey presto!

So I think an asterisk on Intel's list might be in order saying, maybe: 
*
"We're really just pranking you! Ha! Sucker! Compatible only in your dreams!"*

Or words to that effect.


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## Pictus (Jan 17, 2019)

JohnG said:


> Hi all,
> 
> 7. Gigabyte H370 HD3 Mobo (it has a PCI slot which accommodates an RME Hammerfall Card);



Wrong motherboard...
Go for Z390 AORUS PRO, it got a decent VRM implementation.
https://be.hardware.info/reviews/88...rd-is-echt-8-core-waardig-benchmarks-vrm-test






> 9. Case -- thinking about a "be quiet!" case but not passionate about that one way or another; plus a basic lite-on optical tray.



Define R6 USB-C Black
https://www.fractal-design.com/home/product/cases/define-series/define-r6-usb-c


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## JohnG (Jan 17, 2019)

Pictus said:


> Wrong motherboard...
> Go for Z390 AORUS PRO, it got a decent VRM implementation.



it looks great, but no PCI slot. Thanks anyway


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## JohnG (Jan 17, 2019)

Someone super helpful at Gigabyte says I can bring the board by and they will update the bios, so it should then work.

Kind of a pain but worth it to me in this situation.


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## Pictus (Jan 17, 2019)

JohnG said:


> Someone super helpful at Gigabyte says I can bring the board by and they will update the bios, so it should then work.
> 
> Kind of a pain but worth it to me in this situation.


But the Gigabyte H370 HD3 does not have a good *VRM/heatsink* to stand the i9-9900k!
This “someone” from Gigabyte must be FIRED!!

Look at this video


Get the Z390 AORUS PRO + a https://www.amazon.com/PCI-Express-Adapter-Card-Half-Height/dp/B0024CV3SA/ (StarTech PCIe to PCI adapter.)


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## JohnG (Jan 17, 2019)

Hey -- I'm open-minded. Thanks for your thoughts.



Pictus said:


> Get the Z390 AORUS PRO + a https://www.amazon.com/PCI-Express-Adapter-Card-Half-Height/dp/B0024CV3SA/ (StarTech PCIe to PCI adapter.)



I've seen these adapters. I'm not sure how to find out whether they will work with an RME card and deliver the kind of low latency I'm used to.



Pictus said:


> But the Gigabyte H370 HD3 does not have a good *VRM/heatsink* to stand the i9-9900k!
> This “someone” from Gigabyte must be FIRED!!



You may be right. Both Intel and Gigabyte claim it will work; I'm adding a Noctua cooler to it and have a decent air flow in the case, but I'm a composer and not an IT guy.

I chose this mobo not for its price but because it has a PCI slot, it accommodates 64GB of RAM, and it claims to function with the i9.


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## Pictus (Jan 17, 2019)

JohnG said:


> Hey -- I'm open-minded. Thanks for your thoughts.



You are welcome.


> I've seen these adapters. I'm not sure how to find out whether they will work with an RME card and deliver the kind of low latency I'm used to.



No reason for not to work, ask RME support...
From https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpost.php?p=13744137&postcount=7201
"I’m running a cheap pcie to pci adapter for my 2 x Motu 2408 mk3 cards in my i9 9900k build. Works great."



> You may be right. Both Intel and Gigabyte claim it will work; I'm adding a Noctua cooler to it and have a decent air flow in the case, but *I'm a composer and not an IT guy. *



Sadly I'm an IT guy and not a composer.


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## JohnG (Jan 17, 2019)

thanks again, @Pictus


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## chimuelo (Jan 17, 2019)

JG why not get the RayDat or AIO and be free from the 32bit cycle.
I used my Scope DSP PCI Cards until 2010.
They still work but PCI-e is as low latency as it gets.
Best 48k ASIO Drivers Out there in that price range.


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## chimuelo (Jan 17, 2019)

Not surprised ASRock hashigh marks on their Phantom and ProLines
I grabbed a 236 Workstation from ASRock Rack and put a 1275G Xeon on it, and they have a really robust VRM + software.
It probably wouldn’t score like the gaming boards in benchmarks but for a non clocking overboard their designs are solid.

I used a Z97mWS and the H97m WS live for 4 years without a single hiccup.
I used supermicro boards for years but been on the ASRock Rack kick for 4+ years now.
I’m really waiting for another Z/H Workstation instead of the Xeons.
A Z370m WS to use with my 8086k sitting in a box would be awesome.

Good luck buddy.


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## JohnG (Jan 17, 2019)

chimuelo said:


> been on the ASRock Rack kick for 4+ years now.



I prefer Asrock too; I'm more comfortable with their BIOS for one thing.

I'm going to keep checking out alternatives; it's not that urgent but I want to get it done sometime in the next month.


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## JohnG (Jan 17, 2019)

chimuelo said:


> JG why not get the RayDat or AIO and be free from the 32bit cycle



How does the RayDat sync? Do you need another card for that? The Hammerfall cards have BNC Word Clock sync, which is what I've been using all this time.


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## Pictus (Jan 18, 2019)

JohnG said:


> thanks again, @Pictus



You are welcome, both the adapters and modern motherboards with PCI slots use the same technology(bridge chips), so
there will be no latency difference if you are using a z370 motherboard with PCI slots or Z390 with an adapter...

As for the adapters, read the post #147 from Timur Born
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/mus...i-support-new-mobos-doubt-5.html#post12459733

BTW, Newegg has the GIGABYTE Z390 AORUS MASTER in promotion for 2 days
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813145089
This motherboard is TOP dog with reinforced slots and a base plate, this means that
the motherboard will not bent when using heavy coolers...


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## chimuelo (Jan 18, 2019)

Startech Riser Cards look rock solid, Ive been using their Ribbons forever because you can bend them into any shape to fit the 1U Chassis and slot placement.
The TCO Card is an add on for the RayDat and AIO. (Cheapskates)
Now I know why you want to use the Hammerfall.

If you used the ASRock Pro before the newer one will be familiar and for the cost of a Startech that would be a safe bet. It probably used the ASMedia since they’re partnered on additional SATA Ports iirc.

Doing film you probably like 48k.
Newegg lets you play around, try the combo you want, if it doesn’t work RMA that sucker. I bought a spare ASRock Z97m HS on Black Friday, they sent me 2 that arrived a day apart. I was never charged for 2nd one.
After the holidays they finally responded and apologized, for what I don’t know, it didn’t cost me a dime. I’m still waiting for the RMA Label.

I call that really good bad service.


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## chimuelo (Jan 18, 2019)

I forgot to ask you JG, gave you ever seen PCI Overflow messages?
I started seeing them since I upgraded Kontakt, Omnisphere and Pianoteq.
Found out I had to adjust polyphony to lower resources.
Never set it before which is wasteful, but PCI-e 1X is picky about bandwidth being shared.


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## JohnG (Jan 18, 2019)

chimuelo said:


> I forgot to ask you JG, gave you ever seen PCI Overflow messages?



Not sure. If I have, I haven’t noticed!


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## Mason (Jan 19, 2019)

I’m just curious, what is your master computer specs (if that’s where you do the mixing)?


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## JohnG (Jan 23, 2019)

Mason said:


> I’m just curious, what is your master computer specs (if that’s where you do the mixing)?



I mix in Pro Tools, on an iMac. It's 32GB i7 4.2GHz. My main DAW is a 12 core Mac, upgraded from a 2009 chassis.

Does that help?


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