# Alan Menken or John Williams



## RyanMcQuinn (Mar 20, 2017)

Stuck on a desert island with one of these two composers and an orchestra for a year. Who do you pick?


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## Sebastianmu (Mar 20, 2017)

Are you serious?


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## d.healey (Mar 20, 2017)

I think there's more meat on Menken... omnomnomnom


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## dcoscina (Mar 20, 2017)

d.healey said:


> I think there's more meat on Menken... omnomnomnom


Couldn't be more wrong 

Has Mencken written a score like Images or Sleepers, or Empire Strikes Back, or Angela's Ashes or ET or countless concert works?


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## d.healey (Mar 20, 2017)

dcoscina said:


> Couldn't be more wrong
> 
> Has Mencken written a score like Images or Sleepers, or Empire Strikes Back, or Angela's Ashes or ET or countless concert works?


No I meant literally he's a little meatier, if I'm on a desert island then food is what I'm bothered about, not musical education. - I'm just being daft because the question calls for daftness


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## RyanMcQuinn (Mar 20, 2017)

Sebastianmu said:


> Are you serious?


No. I just wonder how others would compare two of my favorites.


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## airflamesred (Mar 20, 2017)

And some fell on stoney ground....., twas a good joke David, deserved a bit more.


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## RyanMcQuinn (Mar 20, 2017)

douggibson said:


> First to answer your question: Williams 100x's over. Personally, while I appreciate the the craft involved I
> find a lot of Menken's work very hard to listen to. It's subjective, and aesthetic. I think I would fantasize every night about hearing Bartok if I was on a island with him, or I would simply feed myself to the nearest shark. (yes... cue up Jaws)
> 
> The second part of my reply, which admittedly has nothing to do with what you asked, is your question made me ask myself why I would want to be stuck on a island with an "Orchestra" with either. Would this be to learn specifically about orchestration and orchestral resources ? Personally, I am a Williams "fan" but I think of him as an overall master. A great orchestrator yes, but incredible composer, great Piano player, knowledge and skilled conductor.
> ...



Thanks for the example! I listened a bit and look forward to listening to more. Avant garde intrigues me. 

I'm surprised there's not more love for Menken here. I would think if there's a composer who's melodies have been sung in someone's house as much as Williams it would have to be Menken. It's not really fair that there are words to sing, but his work to me seems undeniable. 

That said, I would choose Williams. Disney movies tend to do evil=jazz, which was the norm for a long time. I would like to hear how Menken would handle something truly dark like the Imperial March. His gift for melodies that make you feel is something I am thankful to have in my life for sure.


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 20, 2017)

Williams all day money. I had to look up the other dude, sorry.

But I'd probably kill myself if I didn't have Beethoven, Mahler, or Wagner on that island for tunes. The two in the topic (as amazing as Williams is) wouldn't keep me anywhere near as entertained, inspired, and appreciative.


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## rottoy (Mar 20, 2017)

I would pick Haddaway so I can probe him on what love is.


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## autopilot (Mar 20, 2017)

Actually, you know what - Williams would be great, but I would pick Menken. 

Big fan of song and song from. Feel like I'd have more to talk about.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 21, 2017)

Ravel over either.


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## dcoscina (Mar 21, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> Ravel over either.


I'd take Shostakovich over Ravel, Williams and Menken. Though it would be pretty close with Williams.


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## ChristopherDoucet (Mar 21, 2017)

Lemme put it this way.

Aliens make first contact with humans. They come in peace. They ask us to offer up our finest specimen to speak for the human race.
*
***I nominate formally John Towner Williams to represent humanity.****

And I'll bet Alan Menken would second the nomination it.






oh. I chose Williams in case it wasn't clear.


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## ChristopherDoucet (Mar 21, 2017)

That being said, "THE RUN", in which I believe Menken and Howard Ashman (I believe) saved Disney animation, might be the most strongest catalog of consecutive work ever.

And earned him 8 *CONSECUTIVE* oscars no less.

The Little Mermaid
Beauty and The Beast
Aladdin
Pocahontas

Damn.....

I just got goosebumps......




....but I choose Williams.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 21, 2017)

dcoscina said:


> I'd take Shostakovich over Ravel.



Bargain basement Prokofiev


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 22, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> Bargain basement Prokofiev



I thought Shostakovich was bargain basement Mahler? Shosty himself would have copped to that.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 22, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> I thought Shostakovich was bargain basement Mahler? Shosty himself would have copped to that.




You are right, that is more accurate


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 22, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> You are right, that is more accurate



lol! Interesting how so many folks are big into the basically novel and effect-laden works of Shosty. How does Shostakovich stack up to Bartok, Schoenberg, Stravinsky? The latter were all composers who were often doing new and extraordinary things. Not sure what Shosty did that measured up to guys like that, hard to see any of his work as particularly original after them.

Anyhow, I'm taking this into yet another off topic thing, apologies to all.


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## dcoscina (Mar 22, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> Bargain basement Prokofiev


At least he orchestrated his own music and didn't make his students do it for him


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## dcoscina (Mar 22, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> lol! Interesting how so many folks are big into the basically novel and effect-laden works of Shosty. How does Shostakovich stack up to Bartok, Schoenberg, Stravinsky? The latter were all composers who were often doing new and extraordinary things. Not sure what Shosty did that measured up to guys like that, hard to see any of his work as particularly original after them.
> 
> Anyhow, I'm taking this into yet another off topic thing, apologies to all.


I think Shostakovich is cited for his use of symphonic form. At least that's what they taught us in university whereas Prokofiev was completely left out being dismissed as second rate along with Vaughan Williams. I begged to disagree


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 22, 2017)

dcoscina said:


> I think Shostakovich is cited for his use of symphonic form. At least that's what they taught us in university whereas Prokofiev was completely left out being dismissed as second rate along with Vaughan Williams. I begged to disagree



Interesting...I have a master's in music myself, and Profokiev was actually cited far more than Shostakovich during my years of study. Most of my peers and teachers saw Shosty as mentioned above, a bargain rate Mahler sycophant.

Perhaps you could all teach us something by citing exactly where Shostakovich did something symphonically that was strikingly groundbreaking. According to me, my peers, and teachers, Shostakovich really didn't do anything that deviated much from what Mahler had done before, most particularly in terms of symphonic form. That said, Shosty was an interesting composer, I just don't put him anywhere near many of the composers he was contemporary with.

Please, prove me wrong, I'm honestly interested. I have all the scores and recordings.


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 22, 2017)

dcoscina said:


> At least he orchestrated his own music and didn't make his students do it for him




Wait, what? Do you know how many composers have done something similar to that? How does that make them greater or lesser composers?

Okay, at least I know the level of intelligence is diminishing on this (ridiculous) topic. I'm personally sorry to have even engaged in it.


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## Sebastianmu (Mar 22, 2017)

Historically, which soundtrack is greater: Star Wars or The Little Mermaid?

I think the answer is quite obvious. 

The Little Mermaid not only won Menken his first two (!) Oscars, while Williams got only a single one for Star Wars. It also saved Disney, which later went on to resurrect Star Wars!


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## NoamL (Mar 22, 2017)

Why has no one said Eric Whitacre yet?

Think about it!







He has the ability to lure two sea turtles to our island with his beautiful choral works, AND he has the gorgeous yet high-tensile-strength hair we need to tie ourselves to the sea turtles' backs and make a quick escape to civilization!


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## Ashermusic (Mar 22, 2017)

There is, for me, more interesting music to be found just in Prokofiev's "Visions Fugitives"collection than in Shosty's entire oeuvre.


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 22, 2017)

Sebastianmu said:


> Historically, which soundtrack is greater: Star Wars or The Little Mermaid?
> 
> I think the answer is quite obvious.
> 
> The Little Mermaid not only won Menken his first two (!) Oscars, while Williams got only a single one for Star Wars. It also saved Disney, which later went on to resurrect Star Wars!



The Little Mermaid is easily my all time favorite Disney movie, and I ADORE the score. Didn't knew who wrote it. Should have. The part about resurrecting Star Wars makes me ill though...I can't stand those movies (the scores are an entirely different matter).



Ashermusic said:


> There is, for me, more interesting music to be found just in Prokofiev's "Visions Fugitives"collection than in Shosty's entire oeuvre.



Outstanding composer.


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## dcoscina (Mar 22, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> There is, for me, more interesting music to be found just in Prokofiev's "Visions Fugitives"collection than in Shosty's entire oeuvre.


Listen I was half kidding. It took years for me to appreciate Shotakovich whereas I had an immediate love of Prokofiev whether it was his Alexander Nevsky cantata, his Ivan the Terrible oratorio, or his tremendous and grossly underrated Third Symphony based on material from his Fiery Angel opera. Prokofiev had a talent for beautiful melodic writing supported by exquisite and often unusual harmonic progressions. He was a prodigy and I can't really cite anything of his I dislike. 

Sorry Parsifal if I offended but at the time I was in university for music (late 80s) and studied with a James Tenney for composition, most tonal based composers of the mid 20th century were poo poo'd for not forwarding music the way Varese (whom Tunney studied with himself), Schoenberg, Xenakis, Cage and guys like that were lauded. I'm glad that academia has begun to reconsider the music of Prokofiev. 

As for that story about his orchestrating, could just be sour grapes between him and Shosty. We will never know


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 22, 2017)

douggibson said:


> I think what David is referring to is that in the book on Shostakovich, Testimony (which is a controversial book, and it's authenticity has been questioned many times) Dimitri talks about watching Sergie being very uncomfortable with orchestration and basically needing others help to get his pieces ready for the orchestra.
> 
> Dimitri has serious allegations against him by former students too. Who knows ? Hopefully all the bad things die with them and their positive side lives on. Something was working. Both produced (and possibly with extra uncredited help) wonderful music. Leaving the two personalities aside, the world is a better and richer place with their music and I love both composers music dearly.



Yes, but there's not much exceptional about that. Even Beethoven struggled at times with orchestration, and...well, you just can't keep him OUT of an orchestration textbook now, can you.

The point he missed was how that made Shostakovich any "greater" as a composer than anyone.

The only thing I like about Shostakovich are some of the effects he created on his string quartets. They could really hold your interest. As far as composition goes, I just don't hear much for actual substance.

But that's just me, hey like what you like folks. Music's there for everybody to enjoy.

I like freaking *Cannibal Corpse*, and there ain't no great shakes musically there.


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 22, 2017)

I don't care. Good luck with...all that silly drivel!


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## dcoscina (Mar 23, 2017)

douggibson said:


> Bad mood ? If you never cared why did you write "Please, prove me wrong, I'm honestly interested."
> 
> I was trying to be helpful.


I appreciated your post Doug


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 23, 2017)

dcoscina said:


> Sorry Parsifal if I offended but at the time I was in university for music (late 80s) and studied with a James Tenney for composition, most tonal based composers of the mid 20th century were poo poo'd for not forwarding music the way Varese (whom Tunney studied with himself), Schoenberg, Xenakis, Cage and guys like that were lauded. I'm glad that academia has begun to reconsider the music of Prokofiev.
> 
> As for that story about his orchestrating, could just be sour grapes between him and Shosty. We will never know



You don't offend me my friend. You have some good points. I was mostly just getting weirded out by how off topic we're getting. Seems fodder for another thread.


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## Karma (Mar 23, 2017)

This is actually very hard for me. I am a huuuuuge Menken fan!


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## RyanMcQuinn (Mar 23, 2017)

ChristopherDoucet said:


> Lemme put it this way.
> 
> Aliens make first contact with humans. They come in peace. They ask us to offer up our finest specimen to speak for the human race.
> *
> ...


I love this.


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## RyanMcQuinn (Mar 23, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> Wait, what? Do you know how many composers have done something similar to that? How does that make them greater or lesser composers?
> 
> Okay, at least I know the level of intelligence is diminishing on this (ridiculous) topic. I'm personally sorry to have even engaged in it.


Lol


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## RyanMcQuinn (Mar 23, 2017)

Sebastianmu said:


> Historically, which soundtrack is greater: Star Wars or The Little Mermaid?
> 
> I think the answer is quite obvious.
> 
> The Little Mermaid not only won Menken his first two (!) Oscars, while Williams got only a single one for Star Wars. It also saved Disney, which later went on to resurrect Star Wars!


Of course Star Wars. However, I just took my daughter to an off Broadway show of the little mermaid. It's easy to forget how masterful Part of Your World is until the lead actress is annihilating the final high note and you can feel that everyone in the building is going goosebump crazy! 

They are really apples and oranges. Both just so damned good. You can't not pick Williams though. Menken is like the best nba star who couldn't shine as brightly due to playing at the same time as Michael Jordan.


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## Sebastianmu (Mar 23, 2017)

RyanMcQuinn said:


> you can feel that everyone in the building is going goosebump crazy!


I guess it's just not my cup of tea. 



RyanMcQuinn said:


> They are really apples and oranges.


I think they are more like honey and HFCS..  Just kidding. If you love Menken, good for you, there's more for you in the world to enjoy and get exited about.


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## ChristopherDoucet (Mar 23, 2017)

Even though his scores have been some of the greatest put to picture, the Genius in Alan Menken for me is as a songwriter above being a film composer.


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## michaelhung (Nov 22, 2018)

rottoy said:


> I would pick Haddaway so I can probe him on what love is.


This is the best answer. This person wins, game is over


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## ed buller (Nov 22, 2018)

dcoscina said:


> I'd take Shostakovich over Ravel, Williams and Menken. Though it would be pretty close with Williams.


OVER RAVEL ???

Best E


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## Eric Hunter (Nov 23, 2018)

douggibson said:


> Who would I like to spend a year with on an island ? (how fun it is to ask your own question)....
> aside from the three I mentioned above I am tempted to say Marius Constant (see... me and Menken would never have made it).
> 
> Most people would know him for one thing only: His music was accidentally selected as the theme for the Twilight Zone. Most of his other stuff was too avant grade.
> ...


This is amazing!!!! I never knew about this is and am totally blown away. Thank you so much!!!


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## TimCox (Nov 26, 2018)

Menken is amazing. Insanely talented composer/songwriter/etc.

But Williams has hours and hours of works including classical concert works that are deeply complex. I could spend years with it (and have!). If I had an orchestra that knew everything JW has done I mean, heck yeah!


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## Chr!s (Nov 26, 2018)

Man, if I was stuck on a deserted island with an entire orchestra for a year, we'd not be playing music.

We'd be breaking down the string section to build a ship outta there.


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## Peter Stallo (Nov 26, 2018)

John Williams and then Rachmaninoff. If you haven't studied the Isle of the Dead, then you should!


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## ed buller (Nov 28, 2018)

Peter Stallo said:


> John Williams and then Rachmaninoff. If you haven't studied the Isle of the Dead, then you should!



Ha....nice lift Mr Williams !

best

e


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## Rodney Money (Nov 28, 2018)

I remember being in 11th grade and my director passing out some sheet music called 1st Suite in Eb for Military Band. As we were sight-reading the work reaching the climax of the 1st movement a chill went up my spin as I told my fellow trumpet player beside me, "I don't know who wrote this, but this is music." As I turned to the front page of my solo cornet part I learned that the composer who moved me was no other than Gustav Holst. To me I personally believe that Holst's impact on other composers has been truly remarkable especially in media and melodic concert composers.


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## teammwrp (Nov 28, 2018)

Rodney Money said:


> I remember being in 11th grade and my director passing out some sheet music called 1st Suite in Eb for Military Band. As we were sight-reading the work reaching the climax of the 1st movement a chill went up my spin as I told my fellow trumpet player beside me, "I don't know who wrote this, but this is music." As I turned to the front page of my solo cornet part I learned that the composer who moved me was no other than Gustav Holst. To me I personally believe that Holst's impact on other composers has been truly remarkable especially in media and melodic concert composers.


That's not even his best suite for military band!


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## Rodney Money (Nov 28, 2018)

teammwrp said:


> That's not even his best suite for military band!


Mmmm... depends on what instrument you ask.


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## Peter Stallo (Nov 28, 2018)

Rodney Money said:


> I remember being in 11th grade and my director passing out some sheet music called 1st Suite in Eb for Military Band. As we were sight-reading the work reaching the climax of the 1st movement a chill went up my spin as I told my fellow trumpet player beside me, "I don't know who wrote this, but this is music." As I turned to the front page of my solo cornet part I learned that the composer who moved me was no other than Gustav Holst. To me I personally believe that Holst's impact on other composers has been truly remarkable especially in media and melodic concert composers.



I bet a lot of composers don't even realize that's where a lot of the style for modern film music came from. If you play The Planets for someone who hasn't heard it, they would probably guess it was for a sci-fi movie


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## Rodney Money (Nov 28, 2018)

Peter Stallo said:


> I bet a lot of composers don't even realize that's where a lot of the style for modern film music came from. If you play The Planets for someone who hasn't heard it, they would probably guess it was for a sci-fi movie


Exactly.


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## TimCox (Nov 28, 2018)

Peter Stallo said:


> I bet a lot of composers don't even realize that's where a lot of the style for modern film music came from. If you play The Planets for someone who hasn't heard it, they would probably guess it was for a sci-fi movie


The Planets is the most perfectly orchestrated work ever


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## Stanoli (Nov 29, 2018)

Listen to Korngold and you know a lot of what Williams has to say.


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## TimCox (Nov 29, 2018)

Stanoli said:


> Listen to Korngold and you know a lot of what Williams has to say.


Listen to Williams' violin concerto and then try and write him off


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## Stanoli (Nov 29, 2018)

TimCox said:


> Listen to Williams' violin concerto and then try and write him off



I don`t write him off, he just stole a lot from Korngold, whom I place higher.


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## ed buller (Nov 30, 2018)

Stanoli said:


> I don`t write him off, he just stole a lot from Korngold, whom I place higher.



And loads of others but that shouldn't diminish his appeal. All the great composers have done a bit of borrowing. Williams is still a very unique and wonderful voice as a composer. But Korngold is incredible too. Have you heard 'The Sea Wolfe"....lot's of Debussy and Dukas in that...

Best

ed


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## Stanoli (Nov 30, 2018)

ed buller said:


> And loads of others but that shouldn't diminish his appeal. All the great composers have done a bit of borrowing. Williams is still a very unique and wonderful voice as a composer. But Korngold is incredible too. Have you heard 'The Sea Wolfe"....lot's of Debussy and Dukas in that...
> 
> Best
> 
> ed



I don`t diminish him, I just stated a simple fact. 
Korngold invented the Hollywood Orchestra sound in the 30s and 40s.
His Symphony in F#major Op.40 is fantastic:


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## Erick - BVA (Nov 30, 2018)

douggibson said:


> Ah... I see where this thread is headed now. I'll take Bach and/or Beethoven over Shostakovich, Ravel, Williams and Mencken.


I'll take Sibelius over Bach, Beethoven, Shostakovitch, Ravel, Williams or Menken.

Honestly though, neither is better than the other. There are times when I prefer Menken over Williams, and times when I prefer Williams over Menken. The melodies of The Little Mermaid are very, very good on so many levels. And there's a timeless "folk" like quality to a lot of his music. The orchestration is also top-notch. But then take a great Williams piece, and it often times has an almost transcendental quality. However, I think Menken seems to be able to adapt to different stories better --some of the scores are far different from one another. And I think I prefer that over the type-cast style of Williams.
Overall though, I don't really like these types of polls because it really just depends on the mood I'm in.


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## Erick - BVA (Nov 30, 2018)

Yeah, I think I've pinned it down. I think Menken comes from a songwriter's perspective, and so the melody and story take precedent. Whereas Williams seems to take more a classical/romantic approach, where thematic material and timbre take precedent. Am I wrong? Maybe.


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## Erick - BVA (Nov 30, 2018)

The Frozen Soundtrack sounded great to me at first...but the more I hear it, the more it falls flat. Then I realized the reason for that? It wasn't written by Menken haha. I still get chills listening to The Little Mermaid soundtrack.


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## ed buller (Nov 30, 2018)

Stanoli said:


> I don`t diminish him, I just stated a simple fact.
> Korngold invented the Hollywood Orchestra sound in the 30s and 40s.
> His Symphony in F#major Op.40 is fantastic:




yes that's fabulous. But i'd argue that Korngold AND Williams stole from the same sources !

best

ed


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## re-peat (Dec 1, 2018)

Stanoli said:


> Korngold invented the Hollywood Orchestra sound in the 30s and 40s.


Korngold didn't invent any such thing. That 'Hollywood orchestra sound' you're speaking of is something he, along with several others brought with them from Europe, where creating that very sound was the shared skill of virtually anybody who was writing orchestral music: a sound that's the result of almost 4 centuries orchestral practice and that, by the mid 19th-early 20th century, contained everything — stylistically, technically and orchestrally — that would soon accompany the going-ons on the silver screen.

Several names of composers come to mind who casted a particularly long shadow over what was produced musically in Hollywood right up until the 80's of the previous century: Wagner, Tchaikovksy, Richard Strauss, Mahler, Debussy, Rachmaninov, Rimsky-Korsakov, Liszt, Sibelius, Stravinsky, Ravel, Bartók, Verdi, Respighi, Prokofiev, ... to name just a few.

None of this does diminish Korngold's remarkable accomplishments in any way though. Phenomenal musical mind.

_


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## Stanoli (Dec 1, 2018)

re-peat said:


> Korngold didn't invent any such thing. That 'Hollywood orchestra sound' you're speaking of is something he, along with several others brought with them from Europe, where creating that very sound was the shared skill of virtually anybody who was writing orchestral music: a sound that's the result of almost 4 centuries orchestral practice and that, by the mid 19th-early 20th century, contained everything — stylistically, technically and orchestrally — that would soon accompany the going-ons on the silver screen.
> 
> Several names of composers come to mind who casted a particularly long shadow over what was produced musically in Hollywood right up until the 80's of the previous century: Wagner, Tchaikovksy, Richard Strauss, Mahler, Debussy, Rachmaninov, Rimsky-Korsakov, Liszt, Sibelius, Stravinsky, Ravel, Bartók, Verdi, Respighi, Prokofiev, ... to name just a few.
> 
> ...



The few you mentioned did not work in the filmindustry;-D

Korngold was the first to use this sound in movies in the most complete way. 
If you listen to the Robin Hood scores, they are so rich no filmcomposer is able to do this nowadays. 
It is just too much work. Compare that complexity to modern scores. 
And there were no formulas back then. It must have been a nightmare for the filmorchestra.
He was a very strict conductor.

In fact Korngold was very reluctant to work for movies. Only when he was broke he worked for Hollywood movies. He considered that work subpar.


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## ed buller (Dec 1, 2018)

this seems to be just semantics. the "sound" you speak of existed prior to Korngold. He just put it into the movies. Which to be fair he could because he was one of the first film composers !!. So crediting him with "inventing" the "Hollywood orchestra sound" is a tad misleading . He was a stupendous composer....no doubt about it. I would also argue that the quality and development of film music did NOT stop with him. Williams, Goldsmith, Herrmann , Morricone and many others have written stupendous music to picture.

As to your assertion that modern film composers are incapable of writing music like Robin Hood I would have to say you are wrong. I know a few who are more than capable , it's just that times have changed and lush, busy flamboyant 19th century romantic orchestral music is no longer popular in films. End of story !...it's a choice. Don't assume that the music you hear represents the limits of the composers craft. It's a decision made by many people as to what sounds correct for the film. And nowadays a score like robin Hood would be considered corny and over the top ! Perhaps the biggest musical influence in film music since Korngold was minimalism. Many film scores now reflect this. And yes sometimes we as listeners might find it tedious but it's what's wanted. Other than the Star Wars Cannon and perhaps the odd Disney Epic the Korngold sound isn't required....sad but that's the market now. 


best

ed


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## re-peat (Dec 1, 2018)

Adding to Ed's excellent post above:



Stanoli said:


> Korngold was the first to use this sound in movies in the most complete way.


I'm sorry, but he wasn't. I think you'll find that that credit goes to Max Steiner's, whose "King Kong" (1933) is usually referred to as the first complete score originally written for a Hollywood movie. Korngold's own first such credit comes 2 years later ("Captain Blood") and his most influential work — a.o. the two masterpieces "Robin Hood" and "The Sea Hawk" — happened between the late 30's and the first half of the 40's.

But Korngold — a far greater composer than Steiner ever was, I think most people will agree — was but one of a batch of remarkably gifted and well-trained people who, having fled Europe (in most cases for the same, well-documented reason), had arrived in Hollywood, bringing with them the experience of centuries of classical musical practice and orchestral technique, and this happened coincidentally around the time that the era of the talkies had begun, providing the ideal combination of circumstances for that European (mostly German/Austrian/Russian) classical and operatic tradition to help shape what would quickly become the characteristic neo-operatic musical language of Hollywood, and this for the next four decades. (And which was revived, and expanded on, in the mid-70's by J. Williams.)

(If you need aural convincing rather than some posts on a forum: listen to a bit of Wagner, a few tone poems by R. Strauss and perhaps one or two Mahler symphonies. You should quickly get an idea of the musical soil in which Korngold, and just about every other Hollywood composer of those days, is rooted.)

Next to Korngold, there were a.o. Dmitri Tiomkin, Max Steiner, Miklos Rosza and, my favourite by far, Franz Waxman. (It's a strictly personal view of course, but to my mind, Waxman had more talent than all his contempraries plus most who came after him, combined.)

As for your statement that there were no formulas back then: again, I can't agree. There is little music more formula-ridden and cliché-infested than film music (inevitably) is, and the music of the golden age of Hollywood is certainly no exception. Quite the contrary: it's stitched together with tried-and-tested recipes and musical gestures lifted directly from the 19th century romantic and operatic repertoire to which a sprinkling of early 20th century idiom is superficially added. That doesn't necessarily mean it's poor music or anything — most of the music of the Viennese classical period is similarly ridden and infested, to give but one example — but to say that Korngold's film music was free of formulas, is simply not true. If it had been, it would have made for very awkward film music and Korngold would have been fired, and possibly never worked again in Hollywood, the moment he submitted his first score. (Oh, and most of it wasn't/isn't particularly nightmare-ish to play for any decent orchestra either.)

But again, this is not a put-down of Korngold. Absolutely not. There is, in se, nothing intrinsically wrong with formulaïc music — some of the best music ever written is, to a degree and in one way or another, just that: formulaïc — provided that the musical ideas are interesting enough. And Korngold, on a good day, was a veritable fountain of interesting musical ideas.

_


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## Stanoli (Dec 1, 2018)

So we agree to have different opinions and leave it at that:-D


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## ed buller (Dec 4, 2018)

re-peat said:


> But Korngold — a far greater composer than Steiner ever was, I think most people will agree —



My favorite Korngold story. One day Steiner asked of Korngold _" Dear Erich , we have both been here ten years or so and over that time my music has been getting better and better and yours worse and worse....why do you think that is ?"_...................to which Korngold replied............................_." My Dear Max...that is easy to explain...You have been stealing from me and I from You !"_


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## TimCox (Dec 4, 2018)

My favorite thing about this thread is that it became a Korngold vs Steiner and then a Korngold/Steiner appreciation thread. It's amazing to me that both composers (and a few others with them) essentially invented the technical aspects of film scoring, many of which are still in use.


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## Mike Fox (Dec 9, 2018)

I'll take Elfman over any other composer mentioned in this thread.


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## TimCox (Dec 10, 2018)

Mike Fox said:


> I'll take Elfman over any other composer mentioned in this thread.


You know, we can all say a lot of things but I think it boils down to the fact that if any of these composers offered to take us under their wing we'd scramble for the opportunity! (Ignoring the possible living dead factor).


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## Mike Fox (Dec 10, 2018)

TimCox said:


> You know, we can all say a lot of things but I think it boils down to the fact that if any of these composers offered to take us under their wing we'd scramble for the opportunity! (Ignoring the possible living dead factor).


Excellent point!


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