# Any of you composing on headphones?



## Dan Mott (May 21, 2013)

If so...

How are you finding it? Does it get irritating for you after a while? Are you taking more frequent breaks, ear fatigue? Any hearing loss? How are you songs translating on other systems?

What phones are you using?


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## rpaillot (May 21, 2013)

I compose almost everything on headphones...
it helps me to be immersed into the music (and my neighbors not hearing my sh*** :D ) 

Using a AKG K240 or Beyerdynamics DT 770 pro.


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## davidgary73 (May 21, 2013)

I'm using Sony MDR-7506 headphone daily. I do take breaks in between and it does kinda get hot after 3-4hrs of wearing it plus i monitor them at a comfortable level without having to push the volume often. 

I don't use it for mixing as it does not translate very well and i use my monitor system for final mixes. 

Cheers


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## Tatu (May 21, 2013)

I use a lot. Sennheiser HD 598's and KOSS Pro4AA Titanium's.

It's easy to get exhausted when working at high levels (often too high), so breaks are important. I don't think I've damaged my hearing yet, but the occasional snaps (the ones you can hardly hear, but which still manage to mess your ear balance for a while) usually leads to a break from using them for a day or two.


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## lux (May 21, 2013)

me. Got used to it at this point. I wear uncomfortable akg141 mkII, but I'm too used to their sound so wont change 'em


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## ghostnote (May 21, 2013)

AKG K701, but I might switch to the K551 or Audio Technica ATH M50. (Btw, anybody familiar with those phones?). The problem with the K701 that I have is the sheer amount of detail... you constantly keep tweaking things that people with other heaphones may not even notice... and of course they aren't portable. 

What I really miss is a pair of headphones for everything so you won't have to switch between different frequency signatures. Linear, closed, comfy, detailed and portable with a detachable short/long cable. Still waiting for a portable HD 600/650 from Sennheiser. That would be a dream...

However, I always have my volume output set to the same (moderate) lvl to avoid problems with my hearing + I make many breaks.


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## Rob (May 21, 2013)

me too...


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## ThomasL (May 21, 2013)

Composing? Yes I'm using headphones quite often, AKG-701.

I don't take breaks, can wear them for several hours, at least 5+. I'm careful about the level though.


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## Jimbo 88 (May 21, 2013)

When I started headphones where a necessity because of young children and such, but I find it much less fatiguing to not use them. I started using cheap speakers, the equivalent of computer speakers today, and felt much better.

I have my own studio/room now, but still when composing I listen at levels that probably match a quiet TV.


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## Mike Marino (May 21, 2013)

Yep. Audio Technica ATH-M50s.


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## Madrigal (May 21, 2013)

Headphones, speakers, whichever I use, I try to keep the levels pretty low when I compose. That way, you minimize ear fatigue. If you're going to be doing music for more than a few hours straight, try to resist the urge to pump the up volume for the whole session. 

It also takes away the focus from sound and mixing. You can more freely concentrate on composition. 

There is also another fatiguing inducing factor with headphones that's worth considering: headphones apply a small pressure on your head and temples that might result in headaches after a while. For this reason, I can't stand putting on headphones for more than half an hour at a time.


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## mark812 (May 21, 2013)

Aye. Beyerdynamic DT 880 Pro. Could work on them for days.


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## gsilbers (May 21, 2013)

open ended hd600. i suggest open hearphones.


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## YoungCee (May 21, 2013)

Headphone User..... 
:D


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## George Caplan (May 21, 2013)

hd800 and a phonitor.


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## impressions (May 21, 2013)

DT990 beyerdynamic. breaks per 2 hours, 5 min.
bloody ruining the ears still, so i try to keep low volume. problem is when sound designing/mixing when you have to listen to every micro interference in the track-which means higher volume.


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## JPQ (May 21, 2013)

I dont use headphones i dont liek them,and doctors dont recommend them for me. and i have difference beetween ears (i think get it before i birth,and i have tested my hearing all possible ways i think...).


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## Per Lichtman (May 21, 2013)

The way I monitor depends slightly on whether I am composing/sketching, mixing or mastering. When composing, use whatever inspires you and is easy in terms of your ergonomics or noise considerations - but be careful about volume level because that is a bigger consideration than your playback system.

Though some systems are more prone to causing hearing loss than others, the biggest issue is the frequency spectrum. Hearing loss and tinitus have been shown to be more closely-linked to high frequency exposure than low-frequencies. Short of just blasting something into your ear loud enough physically damage your hearing (and we are talking way beyond what you would willingly tolerate) the bass frequencies are not going to damage your hearing. But if you play those upper frequencies on the hi-hats, electric guitar, etc. too loud for too long, it can easily damage your hearing on pretty much any system I've encountered so far.

In terms of the engineering side of it, during mastering I usually check on a variety of reference systems from a custom re-design of the Lipinski L707 (the originals being what Bob Katz apparently used or uses), to a custom PA-system the size of a person to the car stereo, an old rather inexpensive Cambridge Soundworks 5.1 system, and often either the Grado RS-2 or Sony MDR-7509HDs (occasionally the 7506s, too, which have more mids).

But during composing I tend to either just use the PA system (for things to feel big and epic and to not have cables on me while playing) or headphones (to have a better sense of the stereo-field and be able to make out quieter dynamics and subtler nuances).

But to re-iterate: I'm all for using what you like while you compose. Only worry about the specifics when you get to the mixing or mastering stage.


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## Dan Mott (May 21, 2013)

Wow, so a fair few here use them.

I do get irritated when using them my self, but as far as limited space and room problems, a good set would definitely help. Having lot's of bass traps would just take up a lot of room and for small rooms, it's a huge battle.

Thanks for the info.


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## reddognoyz (May 21, 2013)

I have used them when my ears get overstressed. Which is a hazard in this business. I met with an audiologist about this and she said it wasn't necessarily volume, just too much for too long. I have a pair of etymotic inears. That allow me to monitor at much lower volumes. I don't like to use 'em I do when I need to.


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## boogyman (May 21, 2013)

I use them. There not very expensive but it's better than using cheap speakers.


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## wlotz (May 22, 2013)

AKG K240 MKII here...


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## AR (May 22, 2013)

I have to admit. I have hi end monitors, akg headphones, Sony headphones, etc. But the recent scores I have done for some indie movies, I chose the Beats Mixr by David Guetta only. I know, I hear some haters lurking, but anyways. I was blown away by the results in big theaters. The clearity of the sound. I hear every instrument, reaching down to some deep low basses. Also 1+ the ohm...
Anyone else here who uses Beats for classical music


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## ceemusic (May 22, 2013)

Composing yes, mixing no


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## HeDa (May 22, 2013)

I can see a lot of deaf people in the future... a lot of deaf composers... all of them used headphones...


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## Diffusor (May 22, 2013)

gsilbers @ Tue May 21 said:


> open ended hd600. i suggest open hearphones.




Yup, HD600's are the bomb. A pleasure to work with if you have to use headphones.


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## Diffusor (May 22, 2013)

HeDa @ Wed May 22 said:


> I can see a lot of deaf people in the future... a lot of deaf composers... all of them used headphones...



So that's why Beethoven went deaf! Makes sense now.


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## rayinstirling (May 23, 2013)

No, I do not compose or mix using headphones.


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## Dan Mott (May 23, 2013)

rayinstirling @ Fri May 24 said:


> No, I do not compose or mix using headphones.



Would you like to explain your reasons for not?


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## Tatu (May 24, 2013)

rayinstirling @ Fri May 24 said:


> No, I do not compose or mix using headphones.



Mixing I understand. When composing, does it really even matter if it's headphones, A7's or a blank sheet of paper and a pen and some serious mindwork?


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## impressions (May 24, 2013)

Dan-Jay @ Thu May 23 said:


> rayinstirling @ Fri May 24 said:
> 
> 
> > No, I do not compose or mix using headphones.
> ...



maybe he has speaker monitors?
aren't they the best solution to not kill your ears(if you have the budget)?


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## Jdiggity1 (May 24, 2013)

beyer dt880 600Ohm with a tube amp. Sooooo comfy.
Shure srh-840 and M-audio DSM1s as references.
I would love to use my DSM1's for mixing more, but until my room is acoustically treated, there's almost no point.


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## everybody (May 24, 2013)

Shure SRH 840 all the way accross the sky !!!


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## TuomasP (May 24, 2013)

When I compose, I use closed headphones so I can escape reality at the sametime :D Wife and kids screaming next to me and I just play some cool sounds.. what a bliss :D
When I mix stuff I check it with monitors and with some low end speakers.


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## rayinstirling (May 24, 2013)

Dan-Jay @ Fri May 24 said:


> rayinstirling @ Fri May 24 said:
> 
> 
> > No, I do not compose or mix using headphones.
> ...


Why would I use headphones when I have a relatively good speaker based monitoring system? I do have headphones, DT770's and I use them for checking my mix on phones, I also check my mix in mono but for normal working I choose to use the speakers shown in my avatar (but with slightly different placement). :lol: 
I read replies from many here who seemingly don't have a choice. I do.


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## JohnG (May 24, 2013)

The advantage of composing on headphones is that one wastes a lot less time "mixing" because everything is so clearly audible.

The disadvantage is that, having composed a brilliant work on the phones, then one sometimes has to undertake extensive remixing through speakers when a piece is finished because it sounds so different over speakers. Which I find a bore.

So I think there's a tradeoff. 

Sometimes magic happens and yes, one can try to anticipate what is going to sound different over speakers, but it's still hard to really nail the same mix just using headphones.


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## Per Lichtman (May 24, 2013)

I would just like to emphasize (having spent years doing paid work for others in both disciplines) that there is a huge difference between engineering and composing/arranging.

Yes, if you are working on a tight budget you may have to also do your own engineering. But put your engineering cap on either when you are constructing templates or after you finish composing the track - don't try to engineer as you compose because either the production or the composition is likely to suffer.

And if you have a volume of work coming through, go ahead and hire a mixing engineer or at least a mastering engineer whose work you like - and that part is key because "professional" doesn't mean "natural fit for you".

As long as your system gives you enough information to have some idea what is there (and several super-cheap systems do not, though there are cheap ones that do) then a good mixing engineer will be able to mix your stems well regardless of your choice of monitoring system.

Now, in terms of price, headphones give you better bang-for-your buck than monitors. They are also much less dependent on room acoustics and can be effectively employed at lower volumes. There are plenty of perfectly usable options in the $150-500 range for headphones. But for monitors, you are generally looking at low-end compromises in that range, or used systems or "just one" out of a pair, etc.

Whatever system you are using, learn it well - take pieces that you know intimately (preferably a small group that differ greatly in their content but that you love and have been created to very high standards by other people) and audition them on a variety of other systems and then on yours. Notice what your system leaves out or over-emphasizes, check different volume levels to see if it changes and - if you using speakers - try to get a sense for being in and out of the sweet spot.

Keep in mind that every analog attenuator between your digital audio signal and the speakers is both subtly (or not so subtly) decreasing the quality of your signal and potentially making it more difficult to match levels later on if it isn't a stepped system. If you have to do your own mastering or consistent mixing, you'll want to find a good monitoring level and mark it in a reproducible fashion - this means it is often easiest to leave all external analog volume monitor dials at the same position all the time and use the audio interface mixer software to change the level. That way you can always come back to your "reliable settings" if you've written them down to check your mix against other reference mixes.

Now every system has some things they are better at than others. A lot of people have a tendency to use more reverb on headphones than on monitors. Stereo positioning is often easier to get precise about on headphones - since you are supposed to get some bleed from left to right and the speaker positions are less extreme in a properly configured monitor setup.

But I have done lots of professional mixes primarily on headphones that required only small adjustments after referencing on other systems - because I learned my system intimately and knew what to compensate for, and (once again) the system gave me enough information to start with.


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## mark812 (May 24, 2013)

JohnG @ Fri May 24 said:


> The disadvantage is that, having composed a brilliant work on the phones, then one sometimes has to undertake extensive remixing through speakers when a piece is finished because it sounds so different over speakers. Which I find a bore.



http://www.toneboosters.com/tb-isone/


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## emid (May 24, 2013)

Per Lichtman @ Fri May 24 said:


> I would just like to emphasize (having spent years doing paid work for others in both disciplines) that there is a huge difference between engineering and composing/arranging.
> 
> Yes, if you are working on a tight budget you may have to also do your own engineering. But put your engineering cap on either when you are constructing templates or after you finish composing the track - don't try to engineer as you compose because either the production or the composition is likely to suffer.
> 
> ...



Top advice!!!


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## Per Lichtman (May 24, 2013)

@Emid Thanks!

Also, if anyone has already spent a lot on their hi-fi system, you can sometimes use the same techniques I mentioned above to employ them.

The primary point of "accurate" systems is to stay neutral, controlled and consistent but short of spending a huge amount of money, every system will color the sound or leave things out. So you need to find what works for you. And that may be the hi-fi system you spent years listening to as opposed to spending lots of money on monitors and room treatment that you may be better spent handing to an engineer or spending on your orchestral libraries.

There is a huge range out there. I mean, one of the speaker designers I consulted for sold systems that were $500 for pair of speakers (no sub) but also worked at Feastrex where a pair of their marquee drivers alone (no cabinets or fully completed speakers) were $50,000. The system at around 1/100th of the price obviously doesn't sound as good as the more expensive one, but for many people I played them they preferred listening to playback on it to studio monitors at three times the price. So don't feel like you "have to" spend money on new things.


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## rayinstirling (May 24, 2013)

Per,
Great post sharing your experience but, here's the rub!
I like listening on my monitors, I know them very well now after years of all kind of material both commercially produced for listening to and my attempts at emulating similar sounding stuff. I prefer to use them and I do, separate composing and/or engineering.
I am not wrong about what suits me and yes, I do know that none of this is relevant without trained ears.


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## Per Lichtman (May 24, 2013)

@RayInStirling That's great - I actually wasn't trying to change your mind or directing my post at you. I was thinking more about JohnG's comment about needing to radically remix when he goes from headphones to other systems.

It seemed like you had already found what worked well for you and I was trying to help others do the same, whether it was the same thing or entirely different.

I completely agree that there is a huge advantage to knowing your system inside-and-out and wasn't trying to say "ditch your monitors to go with headphones" at all. I just wanted people to know some of the options they had and ways to get the most out of the ones they chose.


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## chimuelo (May 24, 2013)

Well there's these new fangled inventions called IEMs with 6 way drivers.
There are matching plug ins that you can save presets for evert set of monitors you have, really great way to make a finished product, but there are always guys who need a gig and will tell you they will master your mix to make it marketable.
Let them convince themselves they are needed, but you can still mix this way and bypass such steps for getting your foot in the door somewhere, as long as you understand mastering and are able to get the quality you want without chasing ghosts around.

I have Blue Sky 2.1 monitors and a great pair of Bass traps and well treated room, but most of my mixes don't require such dampening since I am not recording live mic'd instruments, but ITB and externally routed hardware.
I can get the same exact sound quality from the IEMs that I get from the BLue Skys. Of course these and mid priced nearfields, but they are pretty good considereing the price and their competition.


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## mark812 (May 24, 2013)

Per Lichtman @ Fri May 24 said:


> I would just like to emphasize (having spent years doing paid work for others in both disciplines) that there is a huge difference between engineering and composing/arranging.
> 
> Yes, if you are working on a tight budget you may have to also do your own engineering. But put your engineering cap on either when you are constructing templates or after you finish composing the track - don't try to engineer as you compose because either the production or the composition is likely to suffer.
> 
> ...



Great post, Per.


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## Per Lichtman (May 24, 2013)

@mark812 Thanks!


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## Ed (May 24, 2013)

mark812 @ Fri May 24 said:


> JohnG @ Fri May 24 said:
> 
> 
> > The disadvantage is that, having composed a brilliant work on the phones, then one sometimes has to undertake extensive remixing through speakers when a piece is finished because it sounds so different over speakers. Which I find a bore.
> ...



Can you trust it though?


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## George Caplan (May 24, 2013)

JohnG @ Fri May 24 said:


> The advantage of composing on headphones is that one wastes a lot less time "mixing" because everything is so clearly audible.
> 
> The disadvantage is that, having composed a brilliant work on the phones, then one sometimes has to undertake extensive remixing through speakers when a piece is finished because it sounds so different over speakers. Which I find a bore.
> 
> ...




john check out the phonitor.


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## mark812 (May 24, 2013)

Ed @ Fri May 24 said:


> mark812 @ Fri May 24 said:
> 
> 
> > JohnG @ Fri May 24 said:
> ...



Yep. Try it yourself and then compare with monitors. You'll need decent cans, though.


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## AR (May 25, 2013)

I'm very curious about DTS headphone:x which Hans Zimmer mentioned few posts earlier. Anyone of you who checked it out already?


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