# VSL - No SSD support (pre-buffer adjustment) in the free player? Are you kidding me?



## meradium (Jun 5, 2017)

I recently bought into the Synchon Series with the Percussion. Today I was finally able to spend some time to set everything up. 

So far so good... But then the big surprise (at least for me):

To lower the pre-load buffer in Vienna Instruments I apparently need to buy the Pro version of their sampler for another 145€!

Are you serious?!

I just spent 6xx€ for a brand new library and can't properly use it on a SSD only machine because the included player only has a fixed pre-buffer??? 

I really hope this is not true. 

I don't need any of the other fancy options for the percussion. I just want to let my SSD do their work... Come on!


----------



## holywilly (Jun 5, 2017)

You can change the preload size within the directory manager app.


----------



## meradium (Jun 5, 2017)

I looked everywhere... This option seems to be only available in the pro edition...

I can only change the directories...


----------



## FabioA (Jun 5, 2017)

Sorry but.. what about libraries for Kontakt? What about libraries for Hauptwerk? Do these libraries include the Sampler to load them? Not at all. You have to purchase it separately. Concerning some of the libraries for Kontakt, you can't even load a single patch without the full version. So the fact you can enjoy Synchron percussion without VI Pro (that it's worth every single euros imho) it's not bad at all.


----------



## meradium (Jun 5, 2017)

Kontakt player allows you to adjust the buffer setting. I have used this feature since day one. Almost all libraries I have use it.

Yes , I have Kontakt full as well. But for efficient SSD streaming I did not buy it. I bought it to build my own stuff. 

I consider this a basic operation, not a special crazy function.

The other features VI Pro has on board are great, but what do I need e.g. random tuning for precision in a wet hall? I am not using any other VSL instruments.

Now, I agree it was my fault not closely studying the difference between the VI and VI Pro sampler... But who expects this?

Maybe in the old days with spinning HDD it was special. But I haven't used any of these for almost 5 years.


----------



## Symfoniq (Jun 5, 2017)

holywilly said:


> You can change the preload size within the directory manager app.



This.


----------



## FriFlo (Jun 5, 2017)

Read the manual. It is not within the Vi app or plugin, but the app called "directory manager" as said before.
If it isn't, you have to upgrade to the latest version.


----------



## FabioA (Jun 5, 2017)

meradium said:


> Kontakt player allows you to adjust the buffer setting. I have used this feature since day one. Almost all libraries I have use it.
> 
> Yes , I have Kontakt full as well. But for efficient SSD streaming I did not buy it. I bought it to build my own stuff.
> 
> ...



You didn't get my point. If you spend 600 euros on a Kontakt library, you may need the full Kontakt to load it (some big libraries work with the free Kontakt player too, but not everyone of them). If you don't own already Kontakt, youH HAVE to buy it. 
With VSL you can always use their libraries without the PRO version, but some libraries really take advantage of VI PRO (let's take dimension series), so you most likely want to purchase it.

Also, as someone else already suggested, I'm not that sure you cannot change the buffer size without VI PRO. To change the buffer size you need to open Directory Manager, click on the library which you want to change the buffer; once the line with the folder's path is highlighted, change the pre-load buffer (it's below on a corner if I remember well), and it should work.


----------



## micrologus (Jun 5, 2017)




----------



## meradium (Jun 5, 2017)

Here is what I did: went to VSL site, downloaded the latest version for Windows. When I open the Directory Manager I can only change the directories. 

The buffer button at the bottom is NOT present. 

Now, if there is indeed the possibility now to adjust the buffer size I am more than happy. 

I just have the feeling it is only present if you have the VI Pro version installed.


----------



## JohnG (Jun 5, 2017)

I think I'd go to the VSL forum for this question. It is hard to picture their handcuffing users like this deliberately. Possibly there is some interaction taking place somewhere else that we're not seeing?

I assume you've taken a look at your other programs (host programs or DAW) and settings on your audio cards? If you haven't done that, have a look, but if you have already, I'd head over to VSL. Their forum is pretty good.

Kind regards,

John


----------



## meradium (Jun 5, 2017)

I am afraid this is how it looks in VI Pro ONLY... I have read the manual up and down... If you want to reduce the pre-buffer you are forced to buy the VI Pro Software from VSL.

I hope they reconsider it.

Very unhappy customer here. BB is eating all my RAM and now VSL does the same because of a designed software limitation :/

I initially considered Berlin Perc and droped that idea because of the severe RAM issues with the other libraries... Oh well...



micrologus said:


>


----------



## meradium (Jun 5, 2017)

I probably would have droped the idea of purchasing it altogether... because in its current setting I can barely use it without the upgrade.



FabioA said:


> You didn't get my point. If you spend 600 euros on a Kontakt library, you may need the full Kontakt to load it (some big libraries work with the free Kontakt player too, but not everyone of them). If you don't own already Kontakt, youH HAVE to buy it.
> With VSL you can always use their libraries without the PRO version, but some libraries really take advantage of VI PRO (let's take dimension series), so you most likely want to purchase it.
> 
> Also, as someone else already suggested, I'm not that sure you cannot change the buffer size without VI PRO. To change the buffer size you need to open Directory Manager, click on the library which you want to change the buffer; once the line with the folder's path is highlighted, change the pre-load buffer (it's below on a corner if I remember well), and it should work.


----------



## FabioA (Jun 5, 2017)

I had this suspect we can see that button in the directory manager because we have VI pro. 
Anyway...VSL it's pretty famous not to be cheap. Let's think how much it costs MIR...and then you have to purchase IR libraries separately 
Does it worth that money? In my opinion, yes. And to be honest the kontakt world is getting expensive too. 
When I purchased my first VSL product (dimension strings) I took advantage of 30% student discount..and Dimension Strings was still around 900 euros.. and I also purchased VI pro; honestely nothing seemed strange to me. 
I would purchase VI Pro, that's it. Get over it 
And take advantage of all bonuses you gained with your purchase (free roompack 6 and taikos!)


----------



## meradium (Jun 5, 2017)

Doesn't really sweeten the deal for me, sorry.

If I'm the only one upset about it, so be it.

If you can easily or are willing to throw another 145€ on the table just like that or just because VSL is not cheap, that's great


----------



## FabioA (Jun 5, 2017)

meradium said:


> Doesn't really sweeten the deal for me, sorry.
> 
> If I'm the only one upset about it, so be it.
> 
> If you can easily or are willing to throw another 145€ on the table just like that or just because VSL is not cheap, that's great


Unfortunately for me it's not my situation.  I would also like to purchase Synchron Percussion for example, but I have to be very careful with my financial resources.. :S
What I meant is that in your situation I would take VI pro as soon as you can. You will not regret it!
Loading times are much faster than any other sampler; and the ssd support of Vi PRO is greater. The chance to load/unload matrix, and many other things.. I understand you could live without it...but it's not that bad thing


----------



## JohnG (Jun 5, 2017)

FabioA said:


> Unfortunately it's not my situation.



Exactly. Since you appear to have nothing to say other than "tsk tsk, VSL costs a lot, too bad" I suggest that is not in keeping with "musicians helping musicians."


----------



## FabioA (Jun 5, 2017)

JohnG said:


> Exactly. Since you appear to have nothing to say other than "tsk tsk, VSL costs a lot, too bad" I suggest that is not in keeping with "musicians helping musicians."


I'm sorry you getting me wrong. But at the same time I don't like to read post like "VSL are you kidding me" with people complaining because free softwares don't do the stuff you would like to.
I also tried as others did, to suggest a way to solve the problem; I'm sorry it didn't worked.
But again, I keep reading people blaming East West and VSL in forums like that, when the problem this user is living is again Berlin Brass' fault that is killing his ram. And Berlin Brass is not cheap. How much is it? 800? Does it come with kontakt player? No, luckily it just works with the Free Kontakt Player. Does the free kontakt player have the same features of full Kontakt? Again, no.
So why he's complaining like that? He should have just asked for help, from my point of view.


----------



## AdamAlake (Jun 5, 2017)

FabioA said:


> I'm sorry you getting me wrong. But at the same time I don't like to read post like "VSL are you kidding me" with people complaining because free softwares don't do the stuff you would like to.
> I also tried as others did, to suggest a way to solve the problem; I'm sorry it didn't worked.
> But again, I keep reading people blaming East West and VSL in forums like that, when the problem this user is living is again Berlin Brass' fault that is killing his ram. And Berlin Brass is not cheap. How much is it? 800? Does it come with kontakt player? No, luckily it just works with the Free Kontakt Player. Does the free kontakt player have the same features of full Kontakt? Again, no.
> So why he's complaining like that? He should have just asked for help, from my point of view.



He is complaining about a basic feature requiring him to spend another 145€, what is not clear there?


----------



## FabioA (Jun 5, 2017)

AdamAlake said:


> He is complaining about a basic feature requiring him to spend another 145€, what is not clear there?


I think it's just a bit more complicated than that.
He rightfully said that he would just need that feature, than he could just stay with Vienna Instrument for the moment, no interest for the pro version.
So you are saying that VSL is doing wrong trying to convince people purchasing the complete product. They should give us a proper and complete player, and the Pro version should have just features no one cares about.
You know that when you purchase a 3rd party kontakt library that runs on the free kontakt player, part of the amount of money you pay is for NI, that sell them the special license to them?
Here's probably why kontakt can give you a lot of stuff in the free player.
VSL wants money for its software! Shame on them!!


----------



## MarcelM (Jun 5, 2017)

in my opinion comparing the vsl player to kontakt isnt right.

vsl is using its player alone afaik, and it should have all the functions a person would need without paying extra money. i mean you paid for the library.

compare it better to east wests PLAY... which is 100% free.


----------



## AdamAlake (Jun 5, 2017)

FabioA said:


> I think it's just a bit more complicated than that.
> He rightfully said that he would just need that feature, than he could just stay with Vienna Instrument for the moment, no interest for the pro version.
> So you are saying that VSL is doing wrong trying to convince people purchasing the complete product. They should give us a proper and complete player, and the Pro version should have just features no one cares about.
> You know that when you purchase a 3rd party kontakt library that runs on the free kontakt player, part of the amount of money you pay is for NI, that sell them the special license to them?
> ...



A good business practice is to compel customers to purchase a Pro version of your product, by providing luxury features in it, not witholding rudimentary features out of the basic version which can render it unusable to your customers - e.g, the opening poster of this thread.


----------



## FabioA (Jun 5, 2017)

Heroix said:


> in my opinion comparing the vsl player to kontakt isnt right.
> 
> vsl is using its player alone afaik, and it should have all the functions a person would need without paying extra money. i mean you paid for the library.
> 
> compare it better to east wests PLAY... which is 100% free.



I see it differentely.
As I wrote (I may be wrong but it's what I get from what 3rd party kontakt libraries companies wrote) Native Instrument gains money for every library sold (running on their free kontakt player).
That means that if you you purchase Berlin Percussion (that has been mentioned in this thread) part of the 500 (?) bucks are for Native Instrument. Other libraries are even worst; they don't pay for the license, to save some money, so you need the full kontakt to run them. 
Also, but that's just my opinion, VI pro is far better than Kontakt, that's why I say it's worth the 145 euros. I'm not talking about scripting, I'm talking about the fact VI pro is designed for its own libraries, and that it's a great advantage. Every single pixel of the gui has its role in the workflow. You can design your patch as you prefer in so many ways, really no limitations. I can't say the same for kontakt. You always have to play with others rules that depend on the particular library you are facing.


----------



## Rohann (Jun 5, 2017)

FabioA said:


> I think it's just a bit more complicated than that.
> He rightfully said that he would just need that feature, than he could just stay with Vienna Instrument for the moment, no interest for the pro version.
> So you are saying that VSL is doing wrong trying to convince people purchasing the complete product. They should give us a proper and complete player, and the Pro version should have just features no one cares about.
> You know that when you purchase a 3rd party kontakt library that runs on the free kontakt player, part of the amount of money you pay is for NI, that sell them the special license to them?
> ...


The issue isn't that VSL wants money for its software, it's that they appear to be playing a "pay to win" game that in a seemingly-less-than-candid-way baits you into upgrading, at least as far as the info in this thread leads. Any EastWest product works fully functionally in PLAY; any (expensive) Spitfire product runs in Kontakt player, and typically (8dio aside) other expensive libraries will work in Kontakt player as well. Many other libraries, when upgrading to Pro, add more articulations and mic positions -- they give you something more when you pay more money. They don't simply lock features. The differences aren't simply arbitrary restrictions.
The full Kontakt argument is relatively moot, because many companies are blatant and upfront about that in their advertising (and again, many expensive/expansive libraries run in the free player). Kontakt is also an engine that runs a vast array of libraries -- this situation would be like EastWest charging people for PLAY.


----------



## FabioA (Jun 5, 2017)

Rohann said:


> The issue isn't that VSL wants money for its software, it's that they appear to be playing a "pay to win" game that in a seemingly-less-than-candid-way baits you into upgrading, at least as far as the info in this thread leads. Any EastWest product works fully functionally in PLAY; any (expensive) Spitfire product runs in Kontakt player, and typically (8dio aside) other expensive libraries will work in Kontakt player as well. Many other libraries, when upgrading to Pro, add more articulations and mic positions. The differences aren't simply arbitrary restrictions.


Guys I see your points! Don't thing I don't have some criticism I would like to move to VSL.
For example their "standard plus special editions" politics is not working anymore, because nowadays we are used to have a lot of articulation from all other companies. And their stadard edition are too expensive for what they offer. So I really prefer this new "mic-restriction" for the standard edition.
What I would like to point out, is that we cannot blame for years EastWest because PLAY sucks (and honestely I disagree, never had a problem with it and once again I like the gui much more than kontakt) and now cheers to them because "at least PLAY is free".


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire (Jun 5, 2017)

Isn't Kontakt 3x the price of the VI Pro player?

Also: I'd pay 2x the price of Kontakt if I could use VI Pro with all Kontakt libraries instead.


----------



## FabioA (Jun 5, 2017)

Rohann said:


> The full Kontakt argument is relatively moot, because many companies are blatant and upfront about that in their advertising (and again, many expensive/expansive libraries run in the free player). Kontakt is also an engine that runs a vast array of libraries -- this situation would be like EastWest charging people for PLAY.



In the past I thought that biggest and more complex libraries requires Full Kontakt. It's not like that. It's just a matter of licenses. Does 8Dio pay NI to run their libraries on the free player (so they can sell their libraries to people without the full license too?) No? Than you need the full kontakt. Does spitfire pay NI? Yes? Ok, than those libraries run on Free kontakt player.


----------



## meradium (Jun 5, 2017)

Ok, my post opening maybe is a bit harsh, but I was really really shocked (!!!) to see them selling this function as a special pro feature.

Coupling that with all the hell I went through recently to get my little setup running smooth and I'm just sick of having to fiddle with technology. 

I mean seriously what is it under the hood... I bet it's only a variable that tells the script to load more or less of the target samples. It's not like they invented a super special game changing something there. SSDs just need less of what used to be required back in the old days... 

I'm still speechless looking at my poor RAM getting eaten while in fact I could easily cut this usage to 1/10... 

Speechless...


----------



## FabioA (Jun 5, 2017)

meradium said:


> Ok, my post opening maybe is a bit harsh, but I was really really shocked (!!!) to see them selling this function as a special pro feature.
> 
> Coupling that with all the hell I went through recently to get my little setup running smooth and I'm just sick of having to fiddle with technology.
> 
> ...



I would also like to specify I'm really sorry you are experiencing this issue. I really hoped the directory manager tip could work.

You can also say what you thing without concerns (at least for me); I just wanted to point out a different way to see this matter.


----------



## micrologus (Jun 5, 2017)

I would ask Paul in the vsl forum.


----------



## MarcelM (Jun 5, 2017)

i tell you what. just dont support greedy companys and things may change.


----------



## Rohann (Jun 5, 2017)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Isn't Kontakt 3x the price of the VI Pro player?
> 
> Also: I'd pay 2x the price of Kontakt if I could use VI Pro with all Kontakt libraries instead.


Kontakt is $125 USD for anyone that owns an applicable Kontakt Free library right now until July 2nd.

Normally it's pretty damn expensive though.


----------



## Rohann (Jun 5, 2017)

FabioA said:


> In the past I thought that biggest and more complex libraries requires Full Kontakt. It's not like that. It's just a matter of licenses. Does 8Dio pay NI to run their libraries on the free player (so they can sell their libraries to people without the full license too?) No? Than you need the full kontakt. Does spitfire pay NI? Yes? Ok, than those libraries run on Free kontakt player.


What I meant is that a good many of the "larger" library companies pay NI royalties, hence Kontakt player.

I personally don't mind PLAY. It's not as good as Kontakt, and may be worse yet than other UI's, but it's not terrible.

Honestly, even if on the page the company said, upfront, "requires VI Pro Player" to use at all, that would come across as more candid.


----------



## FabioA (Jun 5, 2017)

Rohann said:


> Kontakt is $125 USD for anyone that owns an applicable Kontakt Free library right now until July 2nd.


And VI pro was 109 euros for everyone a couple of month ago with the 25% discont  
Are we really discussing that stuff? 
Jimmy statment was that he would pay VI pro even 3x what Kontakt costs if he could have the chance to run every library on it. And I know what he meant!


----------



## Rohann (Jun 5, 2017)

FabioA said:


> And VI pro was 109 euros for everyone a couple of month ago with the 25% discont
> Are we really discussing that stuff?
> Jimmy statment was that he would pay VI pro even 3x what Kontakt costs if he could have the chance to run every library on it. And I know what he meant!


It was in response to his comment. He also said he'd pay 2x what Kontakt costs, after saying that Kontakt costs 3x what VI Pro does.

In any case, I'm not really interested in nitpicking over the sound of a dead horse being beat . I think all relevant points have been made here.


----------



## heisenberg (Jun 5, 2017)

Yeah, I really wished I had jumped on the VSL software sale but the completist in me wanted all of it which would have been 2 grand in my currency.

In my mind, if you are going to jump into VSL you ought to have all the basic tools in place before you really invest the time into the VSL platform buying significant portions of their library, creating music, developing templates and so on.

If they offer the sale again, I will probably jump in.


----------



## CT (Jun 5, 2017)

At the risk of engaging in some pointless griping, I would definitely say you should be damn sure that VSL is right for you before starting to get into it. I honestly regret doing it myself, for a *number* of reasons, one of which is the seeming endlessness of the cycle of investments that this thread highlights some examples of... and all that for a result that I've, quite frankly, only once ever heard truly "measure up," sonically.

Ahem. Anyway, that's my completely unnecessary two cents.


----------



## Saxer (Jun 5, 2017)

Heroix said:


> in my opinion comparing the vsl player to kontakt isnt right.
> 
> vsl is using its player alone afaik, and it should have all the functions a person would need without paying extra money. i mean you paid for the library.
> 
> compare it better to east wests PLAY... which is 100% free.


I'd love to pay for PlayPro if it was available 

Sorry, it's not a helpful comment for meradium. I also think that preload setting is a basic feature that should be included in the free player (it isn't a good start for a library to make a new user angry). Though I recommend getting Vienna Instrument Pro as soon as you can afford it. For my taste it's the most effective and flexible sample player for orchestral stuff. I only wish they would make the GUI scaleable.


----------



## meradium (Jun 5, 2017)

Just to clarify: I am not questioning the capabilities of the pro version. I'm sure if you use their other libraries it is a great thing to have.

My anger is solely based on the omission of the pre-buffer setting which is essential to get a good performing modern setup to start with and pretty much standard since SSDs became widespread and popular.


----------



## muk (Jun 6, 2017)

Well I can understand that such things are frustrating, and some venting can help. But posting in this forum doesn't change anything about it. What _could_ help would be contacting VSL and explain your situation and why you are unhappy with your purchase, and/or posting over at the VSL forum.


----------



## Jdiggity1 (Jun 6, 2017)

If VSL see enough users (or potential users) unhappy about this detail, then perhaps they'll take a long hard look at themselves and reconsider their stance on this. (?)

I'm with OP on this one. And I'm thankful he was the guinea pig.


----------



## Karsten Vogt (Jun 6, 2017)

Why should VSL change anything? They seem to offer an alternative (which is more expensive though) and you just went into that trap. I bet it's mentioned in the fineprint. This is my gripe with the sampling industry: hardly any demo versions, no refunds (very often) and no resale (in most cases) to minimize the losses due to no demo versions.


----------



## meradium (Jun 6, 2017)

Hence my post here and also on the VSL forum.

I'm not sure a lot of people know about this little detail... I sure did not. Even after spending quite some time on justifying which library to get.

I simply did not expect this...


----------



## DaddyO (Jun 6, 2017)

Saxer said:


> I recommend getting Vienna Instrument Pro as soon as you can afford it...
> I only wish they would make the GUI scaleable.



+1 to both statements.


----------



## Symfoniq (Jun 6, 2017)

Karsten Vogt said:


> Why should VSL change anything? They seem to offer an alternative (which is more expensive though) and you just went into that trap. I bet it's mentioned in the fineprint. This is my gripe with the sampling industry: hardly any demo versions, no refunds (very often) and no resale (in most cases) to minimize the losses due to no demo versions.



VSL provides 30-day demo licenses for most of their software products, and they also allow resale of their software and libraries.


----------



## Karsten Vogt (Jun 6, 2017)

I never considered VSL because of their dongle stuff. And trial versions are only available for existing customers. :( At least they offer a license transfer; not cheap though.


----------



## ptram (Jun 6, 2017)

VI has been improved a few weeks ago, with some features from VIPRO. Maybe asking could result in this further feature added to VI.

Paolo


----------



## Prockamanisc (Jun 6, 2017)

meradium said:


> To lower the pre-load buffer in Vienna Instruments I apparently need to buy the Pro version of their sampler for another 145€!


VSL is great because it's modular. You can buy it a piece at a time as you're able to afford it. This is how I did it. I remember pining for VIPro for almost a year because of many of its other features, and preload didn't even exist yet. VSL's player is easily the most incredible of any sample library's. It's got so many possibilities.


----------



## sostenuto (Jun 6, 2017)

Started out with sense that VSL was the top-o-th-heap. Surely from cost standpoint it is right up there. Since every Orchestral Library is bashed (a bit) for one issue or another, VSL must stand above the others to justify its cost.
Only ready to move forward 'seriously' with Orchestral libraries for a short time, but from this perspective, VSL is not separated clearly from several other top choices. What am I missing here ??? I expect 'champions' (NOT fanboys) from many camps, but so far, not any strong sense that VSL is a clear winner .... even when cost is not a major determinant. 

Surely not closed-minded yet !


----------



## Symfoniq (Jun 6, 2017)

sostenuto said:


> Started out with sense that VSL was the top-o-th-heap. Surely from cost standpoint it is right up there. Since every Orchestral Library is bashed (a bit) for one issue or another, VSL must stand above the others to justify its cost.
> Only ready to move forward 'seriously' with Orchestral libraries for a short time, but from this perspective, VSL is not separated clearly from several other top choices. What am I missing here ??? I expect 'champions' (NOT fanboys) from many camps, but so far, not any strong sense that VSL is a clear winner .... even when cost is not a major determinant.
> 
> Surely not closed-minded yet !



The "clear winner" depends on what you're trying to accomplish. And even then, there isn't always a clear winner.

VSL has its strengths. As does Spitfire, Cinematic Studio Series, etc. It's why I own products from all of them.


----------



## sostenuto (Jun 6, 2017)

Symfoniq said:


> The "clear winner" depends on what you're trying to accomplish. And even then, there isn't always a clear winner.
> 
> VSL has its strengths. As does Spitfire, Cinematic Studio Series, etc. It's why I own products from all of them.



Sure, and not a B/W discussion, BUT newer propsects, (even quite DAW-capable other than Orchestral) can find it quite tough facing moderate $$ expenditure while knowing that committing to any 'one' provider is likely NOT going to meet their short-mid-term needs. 
While not disagreeing with your comments, it is still important to choose a serious starting point. 
' ... what you're trying to accomplish' is a moving target (for many) and picking the most pricey (VSL) up front starts to be a bit unsettling with (seemingly) as many 'grumps' as many other top alternatives. 

No expected 'answer' .... just frustrating to pick a solid starting point with many $$, ee, LL, on the line these days.


----------



## meradium (Jun 6, 2017)

Well, I'm not sure, but it seems people are ok with their policy.

I would have expected more resistance 

Maybe it's only diehard VSL fans from day one who actually even take a look at the new offering 

They apparently recently added disabled cells to their basic player.

WOW! If I'm not mistaken that's what you call an unloaded articulation in Kontakt. That's really generous.

I guess that's the issue you run into once you as a developer embark on an in-house development route for a sampler. You need to recollect the price you paid for initial development. Since its difficult to put something truly innovative on the table you start charging people for minor enhancements that put enough hassle in the user's mind that he eventually surrenders and puts the cash on the table.


----------



## vms (Jun 7, 2017)

meradium said:


> Well, I'm not sure, but it seems people are ok with their policy.
> 
> I would have expected more resistance
> 
> ...


I don't think people are ok with that
just one guy kept trolling you lol


----------



## FabioA (Jun 7, 2017)

meradium said:


> WOW! If I'm not mistaken that's what you call an unloaded articulation in Kontakt. That's really generous.



It's not exactly like that. First of all, in kontakt some libraries don't give you the chance to unload articulation.
Others, for example Berlin Series, let you DELETE an articulation, not just unload. If you need it again you have to select it again. It's not 2 clicks easy like in VI pro.
I know, sounds like a "basic feature", so natural, but it's not common at all unfortunately.


----------



## ctsai89 (Jun 7, 2017)

meradium said:


> Well, I'm not sure, but it seems people are ok with their policy.
> 
> I would have expected more resistance
> 
> ...



I don't own any VSL products but I'm glad I don't because I'm satisfied enough with a combination of chris hein and spitfire orchestral products.

But a lot of users on this forum aren't necessarily VSL fans (but a lot of them are) either but some of them do get free products from developers and are unable to sympathize with people like you. And because of the fact that they receive free prodcuts they feel like they've got a duty in defending the developers. But honestly folks need to come into a realization that these sample libraries thrive in business because of their customers who payed and supported the developers to begin with.

If the OP payed for the product and VSL made him feel like "are you kidding me?" I'd say the title of this thread is legitimate.


----------



## novaburst (Jun 7, 2017)

Reading some post not sure why VSL is being compared to kontakt, 

I have them both and they are two different worlds.

In saying that even kontakt is greatly enhanced when using VSL VEpro a must for any one using stand alone or Daw.

VSL VEpro is the key to pulling all instruments, plugins, Daws together in a greatly enhanced way, 

How any one gets along without it begs to believe.


----------



## FabioA (Jun 7, 2017)

novaburst said:


> Reading some post not sure why VSL is being compared to kontakt,
> 
> I have them both and they are two different worlds.
> 
> ...



Even if someone may argue there's no sense to compare them either, it was about Kontakt And VI Pro (Vienna Instrument Pro), not VE Pro


----------



## Tfis (Jun 7, 2017)

https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Software/Vienna_Instruments#!Product_Comparison

Here is a comparison of the versions.

BTW:
Even the if "NoPro" version would have an adjustable buffer size, i would take vipro.


----------



## novaburst (Jun 7, 2017)

FabioA said:


> Even if someone may argue there's no sense to compare them either, it was about Kontakt And VI Pro (Vienna Instrument Pro), not VE Pro


Yes I know it was about v instrument, but I just kind of sensed a little anti VSL in some post, so I thought I would say why it's worth having at least some or a bit of VSL on your machine. And thousands have benefited from it.


----------



## sostenuto (Jun 7, 2017)

novaburst said:


> Yes I know it was about v instrument, but I just kind of sensed a little anti VSL in some post, so I thought I would say why it's worth having at least some or a bit of VSL on your machine. And thousands have benefited from it.



As Novice, I still relate to this, BUT very difficult to begin to judge (with any confidence) which of those VSL 'pieces' to begin with.
When I speak with competent sources, I quickly get the clear warning ... 'Special Editions are a nice starting point.. BUT cannot be upgraded.
Then I go to Solo Instruments and the fun begins .... even basic content is pricey when just starting to add content. How do you suggest one deal with this IF one knows that other providers' OT, Spitfire, EW, many others) libraries are likely to be part of the 'build-up' ??

A newcomer to VSL gets what one might expect __ from a capable company marketing its products __ a menu implying steady selection throughout their selections.


----------



## novaburst (Jun 7, 2017)

sostenuto said:


> even basic content is pricey when just starting to add content.



Haha yes very pricey, I guess some other developers stuff is pricey too VSL has just finished a great 40%sale, on add on that of also ment the complete set of any library,

Some very nice offers, sometimes you just need to wait for sales like this to get barging. 

Another way to save with VSL is to get the standard library only and use other library's for articulations if needed.



sostenuto said:


> ' OT, Spitfire, EW, many others) libraries are likely to be part of the 'build-up' ??



Of course this is and will always be the case we will have a combination of library's at our disposal.


----------



## meradium (Jun 7, 2017)

May I kindly remind the fellow posters that this thread was not about discussing whether VSL libraries are the best out there (which I question by the way) but rather about a specific feature that prevents the efficient use of such a huge library with a modern PC - and that pretty much intentionally.

Who here still uses spinning disks for sample streaming (NOT project storage)? By using I mean in an operational setup, not some left behind dustbin...

All people I know or posts I have seen have SSDs delivering their sounds. Why? Because they are so much more efficient and high performing.

I don't care about the other Pro features. I just don't care! I don't need them. All I want is to have as many instruments ready to play with as little RAM usage as possible. Nothing more.

I don't play with the GUI of a sampler. I set it up (in VEP btw.) and leave it behind.

It's really a shame. The library itself is very nice.


----------



## sostenuto (Jun 7, 2017)

novaburst said:


> Haha yes very pricey, I guess some other developers stuff is pricey too VSL has just finished a great 40%sale, on add on that of also ment the complete set of any library,
> 
> Some very nice offers, sometimes you just need to wait for sales like this to get barging.
> 
> ...


 I think Full Library expansion deal is still on 'til June 30 ...


----------



## novaburst (Jun 7, 2017)

meradium said:


> To lower the pre-load buffer in Vienna Instruments I apparently need to buy the Pro version of their sampler for another 145€!



V instrument is free as well as V ensemble. there will be features missing if you really need to purchase V instrument pro it will be the first time you purchased it,

Its a shame you pulled the trigger not knowing, the way forward would perhaps to fall on another developer or get a hold of V ensemble pro if you really want to use the said features


----------



## meradium (Jun 7, 2017)

Sorry, what? Not sure I got your point... What has VEP 6 to do with VI Pro?


----------



## novaburst (Jun 7, 2017)

meradium said:


> Sorry, what? Not sure I got your point... What has VEP 6 to do with VI Pro?



Sorry, what I am saying is you will have missing features in the free version of V instrument, just like V ensemble the free version there are missing features, just like the free version of kontakt. (kontakt play)

remember you did not need to purchase it so if you went ahead and purchased V instrument pro it will be the first time, it is a shame the feature you were looking for is not in the free version but it is to be expected, but your thread title gives the impression that the feature you want should have been in the free version hence (Are you kidding me )

if I did not find a feature in a free version .....well its kind of the way it is ..no surprise there


----------



## meradium (Jun 7, 2017)

I think the topic is clear. No need to repeat it over and over again.

Adjusting a pre-buffer size can be considered standard in 2017. VSLs software is the only sampler that introduces this kind of artificial bottleneck to its users. Reducing a load variable is not a feature. Its a basic setting at the software developer's descretion.

The two ongoing topics here have raised the necessary awareness. Non VSL customers are warned. The others don't care because chances are they already swollowed the bitter pill much earlier in the game when VSL was still hot.

You may of course disagree here. Nobody will stop you.


----------



## novaburst (Jun 7, 2017)

meradium said:


> To lower the pre-load buffer in Vienna Instruments I apparently need to buy the Pro version of their sampler for another 145€!
> 
> Are you serious?!



Standard is a big wide word, if you are not able to lower buffer in the free version what is the problem you did not pay for the free version its free so you don't need to expect to much from that weather its standard or not.

if you purchased it I could understand your point, full or extra features comes from a purchased version or a full functional version of a VST software.

if there are two versions of a software hence... free (cut down version) and full purchased, you should not expect much from the free no matter what it is, the free version is meant to get you by until you get the full version.

With a free version a developer can with hold any thing they choose and there should be no complaints because its free.

all complaints should be directed at a purchased full version in this case the pro version has what you need so the next step for you is to purchase it if you need that feature so bad and problem solved.

there no point in complaining about some thing that is not on a free version of anything.


----------



## Mr Greg G (Jun 7, 2017)

Well, saying it's free is a bit misleading I think... You need it to use your VSL libraries and can't use another sampler to load them, just like Play for EW. I can't download VI and load my Kontakt libraries in it, so VI is totally useless without _buying_ VSL libraries. Hence, not free. On the other hand VE has a freeware version.

I understand meradium frustration here, it would be as if EW would make you pay for a premium version of Play to get the standard features the Player requires to fully use the Hollywood Strings library you just bought. Everybody would be screaming at them. Same thing with Kontakt player, the player (not sampler), has all the options you need to use your Kontakt libraries. It's not a stripped down player like VI but a FULL player.

On a personal note, I'm done with VSL since the Orchestral Cube days: they refused to upgrade my libraries to VI because I asked for this upgrade after their deadline..... their informational email was actually rotting in my junk folder .... But why was there a deadline in the first place? Bad business.


----------



## FabioA (Jun 7, 2017)

Mr Pringles said:


> Well, saying it's free is a bit misleading I think... You need it to use your VSL libraries and can't use another sampler to load them, just like Play for EW. I can't download VI and load my Kontakt libraries in it, so VI is totally useless without _buying_ VSL libraries. Hence, not free. On the other hand VE has a freeware version.
> 
> I understand meradium frustration here, it would be as if EW would make you pay for a premium version of Play to get the standard features the Player requires to fully use the Hollywood Strings library you just bought. Everybody would be screaming at them. Same thing with Kontakt player, the player (not sampler), has all the options you need to use your Kontakt libraries. It's not a stripped down player like VI but a FULL player.
> 
> On a personal note, I'm done with VSL since the Orchestral Cube days: they refused to upgrade my libraries to VI because I asked for this upgrade after their deadline..... their informational email was actually rotting in my junk folder .... But why was there a deadline in the first place? Bad business.



Personally if EW would release a PRO version of PLAY where I would be able to do my own patches, to improve my workflow according to my needs, I would buy it (for a reasonable price); that means to be a pro user: you have your workflow and you need to be as fast as possible; time is money.
Also, again, if EW would release a pro version and get some money from it to invest on programming, maybe we would read much less posts complaining and whining against PLAY.


----------



## JohnG (Jun 7, 2017)

meradium said:


> Adjusting a pre-buffer size can be considered standard in 2017.



Yes, you are right. If this happened to me I would be furious. Maybe 10 years ago, but not now, and not when it's a deliberate nerf-ware decision.


----------



## novaburst (Jun 7, 2017)

JohnG said:


> Yes, you are right. If this happened to me I would be furious. Maybe 10 years ago, but not now, and not when it's a deliberate nerf-ware decision.





Mr Pringles said:


> Well, saying it's free is a bit misleading I think... You need it to use your VSL libraries and can't use another sampler to load them, just like Play for EW. I can't download VI and load my Kontakt libraries in it, so VI is totally useless without _buying_ VSL libraries. Hence, not free. On the other hand VE has a freeware version



There is no point in conplaining over a free version, ok no you can't use any other player with VSL, but there is no price on that player, again no point in being furious.

It is also not kontakt player it does not need to comply with other free players.

All your saying if others do it why can't VSL.
Your saying this should be a basic thing, 

Well not in the cut down free version of V instrument it's not basic because the developer did not want it to be.

The developer has the choice to with hold it or not , you have the choice to purchase it or not. 

Developers can use what ever means they choice to encourage you to a full version

You have the choice weather to purchase or not, if this absence of buffer change puts you off of VSL then go buy something else .


----------



## JohnG (Jun 7, 2017)

novaburst said:


> There is no point in conplaining over a free version, ok no you can't use any other player with VSL, but there is no price on that player, again no point in being furious.



do you work for VSL? why are you apologising for them? do you favour them over the composers?

Yes, businesses can conduct themselves in any kind of obnoxious way they choose, but the OP is, in my view, understandably shocked and surprised.



novaburst said:


> You have the choice weather to purchase or not, if this absence of buffer change puts you off of VSL then go buy something else .



Duh. The point is he already bought something that it would be reasonable to expect would work in a reasonably helpful way. It doesn't say "WARNING, DOESN'T REALLY WORK WITHOUT SPENDING 145 MORE EUROS"


----------



## novaburst (Jun 7, 2017)

Mr Pringles said:


> understand meradium frustration here, it would be as if EW would make you pay for a premium version of Play to get the standard features the Player requires to fully use the Hollywood Strings library you just bought. Everybody would be screaming at them. Same thing with Kontakt player, the player


Why would you scream no one's forcing you to buy it.

Play has taken another root they have put a full free version of play out that's there choice if they put a cut down version out big deal, there are many developers I can choose if I am not happy with one.

Becuase play is a full version does not mean VSL should follow.


----------



## novaburst (Jun 7, 2017)

JohnG said:


> Duh. The point is he already bought something that it would be reasonable to expect would work in a reasonably helpful way. It doesn't say "WARNING, DOESN'T REALLY WORK WITHOUT SPENDING 145 MORE EUROS"



Duh you can try demo why don't people do this.


----------



## clisma (Jun 7, 2017)

Meradium, thanks for bringing this to our attention, I consider it helpful for deciding where users spend their money in the future, or at least know what the true cost for optimal performance will be.

This is a function that actually improves the use of the library! It's almost unthinkable that a developer would purposely leave it out, as it hampers the functionality of their own library. Not a great business move. EW would have been grilled by its users for this, and similarly, UVI Workstation let's you optimize streaming to the type of disk as well. There is little rationalization for this, honestly.


----------



## ctsai89 (Jun 7, 2017)

clisma said:


> Meradium, thanks for bringing this to our attention, I consider it helpful for deciding where users spend their money in the future, or at least know what the true cost for optimal performance will be.
> 
> This is a function that actually improves the use of the library! It's almost unthinkable that a developer would purposely leave it out, as it hampers the functionality of their own library. Not a great business move. EW would have been grilled by its users for this, and similarly, UVI Workstation let's you optimize streaming to the type of disk as well. There is little rationalization for this, honestly.



Exactly. imho there are also too many people out there that care about the appearance before anything. Like "complaining" or the title of this thread is bad behavior? lol. We can all agree too much negativity is bad but honestly, no one should be that afraid to bring up anything negative they feel about a developer or sample library, especially when they've been misled.

Wish to see more posts like this revealing unspoken problems of other developers/libraries as well.


----------



## novaburst (Jun 7, 2017)

JohnG said:


> do you work for VSL? why are you apologising for them? do you favour them over the composers?



Did you see an apology, there is to much choice out there, you going on like VSL is the only developer in the world. 

One little feature missing and it's like the end of the world you use it as an excuse to slander and slam any developer thats not in your good books. 

It's not the composer it's the attitude 

If you can put out a negative thread to slander a developer, then don't expect everyone to follow that root a few want go for that.

Seems the smallest thing these days is an excuse to put some one down, when there are many other ways forward.

Yes of course haters will love this thread it's VSL ......

At the very least one should learn to demo or try it out before you pull the trigger to often we pull the trigger then complain.

Weather the feature is standard or not try in the future to demo it first at least if you choose this root you want be so bitter.

Most big developers give this option if you do this there will be no need for threads like this.


----------



## meradium (Jun 7, 2017)

The title of my post was the true feeling I had when I was excited like a child opening his Christmas presents to try my new library, only to find out shortly after that, well it will be very difficult to load in my current setup without any way to alter the pre-buffer.

So I went on searching... Looked everywhere... Can't be I thought...

Well, turns out, YES this can be ! They disabled this feature deliberately to make people pay further.

I would love much more to write about the actual content of the package. But you know what, I'm not willing to at this point.

A little public pressure will not hurt to shake up the situation. If everyone just sits tight there won't be any change which is not good going forward.

The market will decide. If nobody cares, this all was for nothing. Fine. If it does actually care, somebody will feel it.

It's the last part I have the feeling our two diehard VSL fans are a little bit afraid of. 

I have no contract with any developer. I am happy to use whatever fits the bill to get the job done. They all have their pros and cons.

In this case however I feel the community can expect not to be artificially handcuffed. I am not supporting this, so I am raising it publicly for discussion.


----------



## novaburst (Jun 8, 2017)

meradium said:


> In this case however I feel the community can expect not to be artificially handcuffed. I am not supporting this, so I am raising it publicly for discussion



Why did you not demo it first, in VSL eyes they have done nothing wrong, 

They gave you the option to try it out before you purchase, 

They did not hand cuff you on there site you have the option to give it a test drive before you purchase this is what VSL and any other developer who has this option they expect you to use it before you purchase,

So they think your happy when you buy becuase they believe you tried it out first so in there eyes you are another happy customer.

You went the wrong way about it you pulled the trigger first then complain after. 

You did not use there free options.


----------



## NYC Composer (Jun 8, 2017)

I've noticed that through the years, VSL has carefully not responded in forums to matters regarding their pricing, nor have pricing policies been likely to change as a result of public pressure. 

That said, I really hope they break precedent on this issue in these early innings of the Synchron rollout. The OP really does have a point. Synchron seems to be a premium product at a premium price point. It would show a lot of good will if Vienna de-cripples their basic player to allow buffer changes.

At the very least, they should be upfront and obvious in the sales info with a "*PLEASE NOTE THAT THE PRO PLAYER IS NEEDED TO CHANGE BUFFER SIZES. THE PRO PLAYER SELLS FOR AN ADDITIONAL..." message.


----------



## ctsai89 (Jun 8, 2017)

novaburst said:


> Why did you not demo it first, in VSL eyes they have done nothing wrong,
> 
> They gave you the option to try it out before you purchase,
> 
> ...



tbh the "try out" option is there for them to have an excuse saying "you should've tried it, now you bought in, deal with it, spend more money" Also, it legitimizes their money mongering strategy in not making it obvious to their customers that they would have to pay extra to receive certain basic features. There's also both sides to this kind of issues, buyers need to always be vigilant so I can't really say one side is completely at fault.


----------



## Mr Greg G (Jun 8, 2017)

Let's put it this way, imagine that you would have to buy a Pro STEAM Player to be able to fully use your Spectrasonics synths. They would have to remove some useful filters or options for this Pro player. Everybody would be rightfully launching stones at them. And don't say there's a difference because it's synthesis vs sample library because in the case of Omnisphere, it's actually a sample player (and now sample loader with Omnisphere 2). And they never marketed it as "free"...

VSL is the only company with a consequent client list to have this kind of business approach and sell half products at premium prices.


----------



## Tfis (Jun 8, 2017)

The product page of the player (both version - free and pro) clearly states, that the free version is NOT "SSD ready" (whatever that means).


----------



## vms (Jun 8, 2017)

I just realized that VSL fanboys are very annoying....


----------



## muk (Jun 8, 2017)

vms said:


> I just realized that VSL fanboys are very annoying....



Yeah, it's pretty annoying when in a discussion someone doesn't share your hate. Better start calling them names.


----------



## novaburst (Jun 8, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> try out" option is there for them to have an excuse saying "you should've tried it, now you bought in, deal with it, spend more money" Also, it legitimizes their money mongering strategy in not making it obvious to their customers that they would have to pay extra to receive certain basic features.



Come on ease up, it's there for every one to use for free, it's the first step every buyer should take before pulling the trigger it saves them hassle and bad reviews, and also protects the buyer,

You can't tell me if you tried it for free and your not satisfied are you still going to purchase it,......... really 

How could you make the statement you made money mongering ........ really....... even after the option is there for you to try and pull out if your not satisfied with it.

So what your saying is when the light is red your still going to cross the road in line of traffic get knocked down then complain after,

Sounds like hate post to me and of course riding on the back of a lot more VSL haters 
You speak with a dark confidence against VSL. But that's how it always is when there is so much people hating on them I guess you can't go wrong, I guess any thing you say you will have a great backing behind you.but I don't back you, your wrong.

Use the options available it's there for your peace of mind.


----------



## Karsten Vogt (Jun 8, 2017)

novaburst your argument is valid if you already own VSL products. Existing customers can order demo licenses. New customers can't.
https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Instruments/ViennaKey#!DemoLicense


----------



## meradium (Jun 8, 2017)

Tfis said:


> The product page of the player (both version - free and pro) clearly states, that the free version is NOT "SSD ready" (whatever that means).



Would you mind sharing your reference? I can only see this in the product comparison...

EDIT: I can only see this statement (something related) on the Pro page... Now, when I buy a precision library - and only this one - why would I even look at the Pro player if every other sampler on the market (even the free versions) allow their customers to get the most out of their computer's capabilities?


----------



## meradium (Jun 8, 2017)

One more thing: I think the demo discussion is misplaced here.

When I would try a library I would primarily focus on the sound. Not even one minute I would have assumed the standard version is not SSD ready. Why? Because it is standard across all other platforms.

Nevertheless, would you go to the Vienna Key page to learn about a demo possibility? Really?

It's a completely different discussion. Just a side note...


----------



## Arbee (Jun 8, 2017)

vms said:


> I just realized that VSL fanboys are very annoying....


It seems that some folk in this thread are genuinely disappointed that it hasn't stirred up more "VSL hatred". I'm not so much a fanboy, i.e. I haven't enjoyed some of their products as much as I thought I would, but I have huge respect for what they do and how they go about it.

To be fair though, I must admit to feeling the same way you do about fanboys of another very popular developer represented heavily on this forum.....


----------



## meradium (Jun 8, 2017)

Hey guys, please, let's stick to the topic.

It's not about developer bashing at all.

After all it's a business decision. None of the developers do it purely for the joy of it or to make great things happen without considering monetary aspects. That's also the reason why I see little point in applauding any one of them for any particular product they bring to market. 

I'm just questioning best practice here.


----------



## babylonwaves (Jun 8, 2017)

meradium said:


> The title of my post was the true feeling I had when I was excited like a child opening his Christmas presents to try my new library, only to find out shortly after that, well it will be very difficult to load in my current setup without any way to alter the pre-buffer.


in all fairness, it will load fine - just not as efficiently as it could. nothing hold you back from working unless you don't have enough RAM. see, I'm with you in regards of the buffer setting option. I think it should be a standard option. but it is not like you knew before purchasing how many instruments you can load. you simply can't because that's not stated anywhere. did you talk to VSL by now?

btw: the comparison chart in question is here https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Software/Vienna_Instruments#!Product_Comparison


----------



## meradium (Jun 8, 2017)

Yes, via the VSL community (Paul).

No support at this time in the free player. 

But they generously added the possibility to allow you to load all calls disabled in the free version... 

Doesn't help.

Yes, I would not know how many instruments I could have loaded. But that's not the point here. Either way it would be considerably more with the possibility to adjust the setting.

Standalone it does not mean much. But I'm not in the luxury position (nor do I want to for other reasons) to house multiple machines dedicated per library. In a highly dense setup every MB counts.


----------



## vms (Jun 8, 2017)

muk said:


> Yeah, it's pretty annoying when in a discussion someone doesn't share your hate. Better start calling them names.


man it has nothing to do with hate
#88 explains one of the many reasons why they are annoying


----------



## Symfoniq (Jun 8, 2017)

This thread is positively dripping with self-entitlement.

Synchron Percussion works fine with the free Vienna Instruments player.

VSL recommends 4 GB of RAM for Synchron Percussion. If you don't have enough RAM to use Synchron Percussion without adjusting the preload buffer, you should probably upgrade your hardware before purchasing $700+ state-of-the-art sample libraries.

VSL has misrepresented nothing, and the Vienna Instruments version comparison page is clear.

I get that you don't like how VSL has segmented its product line, but your failure to do basic research isn't VSL's fault. Nor should the lack of the buffer adjustment feature be a deal-breaker if your hardware meets Synchron Percussion's system requirements.


----------



## Symfoniq (Jun 8, 2017)

NYC Composer said:


> That said, I really hope they break precedent on this issue in these early innings of the Synchron rollout. The OP really does have a point. Synchron seems to be a premium product at a premium price point. It would show a lot of good will if Vienna de-cripples their basic player to allow buffer changes.



It is indeed a premium product that works best with VSL's premium player. So why does a new, very expensive sample library suddenly mean that VSL should start giving away features from its premium player for free?


----------



## procreative (Jun 8, 2017)

Symfoniq said:


> This thread is positively dripping with self-entitlement.
> 
> Synchron Percussion works fine with the free Vienna Instruments player.
> 
> ...



Do you not think its fair to compare free players? To disable a feature that is now standard on both free and pro players for example Kontakt and Play both offer this at no extra charge, to my mind is mean.

For someone who struggled for a long time to use Play based libraries until they finally updated the player to make the most of system resources, I for one would never consider VSL as an option based on this policy.

They may well produce some of the best libraries out there (although they have been caught up over time) and owning VEP can attest to their responsiveness, support and updates. 

However I feel feature crippling a "free" player is one thing, but removing a very basic feature that is present in just about every other sample player/DAW out of the box for a premium priced sample library is a poor decision.

Its not self-entitlement, its questioning the logic.


----------



## Symfoniq (Jun 8, 2017)

procreative said:


> Do you not think its fair to compare free players? To disable a feature that is now standard on both free and pro players for example Kontakt and Play both offer this at no extra charge, to my mind is mean.



Compare to what end? No other player can play VSL samples. VSL's player can't play anyone else's samples. Many companies charge a premium for features that other companies offer for free. Don't get me wrong—I think it would be great if VSL offered adjustable preload buffer on the free player—but they don't. However, that feature (which is generally only helpful on their premium products running on premium hardware) is available in their premium player. And nobody should be investing in VSL without their eyes wide open that this a very expensive line of products to get into.



> For someone who struggled for a long time to use Play based libraries until they finally updated the player to make the most of system resources, I for one would never consider VSL as an option based on this policy.
> 
> They may well produce some of the best libraries out there (although they have been caught up over time) and owning VEP can attest to their responsiveness, support and updates.
> 
> ...



VSL's player (including the free one) has never had system resource usage issues like PLAY. It's a remarkably efficient player even compared to Kontakt. My current DAW has 4 terabytes of SSD storage, and despite owning Vienna Instruments Pro, I've never adjusted the preload buffer for my VSL samples because I've never found it necessary. I'm not saying nobody would ever need or want to adjust the preload buffer size, just that it's not something that has ever caused problems for me in the past.


----------



## procreative (Jun 8, 2017)

Symfoniq said:


> Compare to what end? No other player can play VSL samples. VSL's player can't play anyone else's samples. Many companies charge a premium for features that other companies offer for free. Don't get me wrong—I think it would be great if VSL offered adjustable preload buffer on the free player—but they don't. However, that feature (which is generally only helpful on their premium products running on premium hardware) is available in their premium player. And nobody should be investing in VSL without their eyes wide open that this a very expensive line of products to get into.
> 
> 
> 
> VSL's player (including the free one) has never had system resource usage issues like PLAY. It's a remarkably efficient player even compared to Kontakt. My current DAW has 4 terabytes of SSD storage, and despite owning Vienna Instruments Pro, I've never adjusted the preload buffer for my VSL samples because I've never found it necessary. I'm not saying nobody would ever need or want to adjust the preload buffer size, just that it's not something that has ever caused problems for me in the past.



As you said "for me".

It seems every system has its foibles and some people need to adjust buffers due to a variety of factors. Audio drivers, RAM speeds, drive speeds, how many instances of a player they are running etc, etc.

So really whether it works for you is not the point.

I really took exception to the statement "self-entitlement". As I do not think being able to adjust buffers is a "Pro" option as probably people with lesser system have more of a need to adjust these than "pros".

In this instance although it is mentioned on the product page, its quite possible one might assume such a fundamental feature is not a paid for extra, so I can understand the OP's frustration.

VSL can do whatever they like, its their product. But I think its fair to question the logic and hopefully they listen as I expect their market share has probably taken a bit of a hit since others have euqalled or surpassed some of their innovations.

After all did VSL not tout their silent stage dry samples as the standard, but now they have at great expense created a stage with ambience, I wonder why the change of heart? Could it be that their competition has been achieving great sales with similar philosophies?


----------



## FabioA (Jun 8, 2017)

procreative said:


> As you said "for me".
> 
> It seems every system has its foibles and some people need to adjust buffers due to a variety of factors. Audio drivers, RAM speeds, drive speeds, how many instances of a player they are running etc, etc.
> 
> ...



Mmm..if you have SSDs for streaming samples and you know what pre-load buffer is, you're probably a PRO. Otherwise you are just a person that can spend money in hardware he doesn't need. That's probably why their full versions are called Vi PRO, VE PRO etc. They are for Pro.
Now, if you say that a PRO user is a person that can't spend 145 euro to improve his workflow (but can pay 675 or more for a library) and save his time day by day, I don't agree. I think we are confusing Pro users with users with a bunch of SSDs full of libraries.

At this point I'd suggest VSL to include VI Pro with all their biggest libraries (and if they have to, rise the price accordingly) or to remove the VI standard and force to purchase the PRO version as only option (as it happens with Kontakt libraries that require the full Kontakt software).


----------



## procreative (Jun 8, 2017)

FabioA said:


> Mmm..if you have SSDs for streaming samples and you know what pre-load buffer is, you're probably a PRO. Otherwise you are just a person that can spend money in hardware he doesn't need. That's probably why their full versions are called Vi PRO, VE PRO etc. They are for Pro.
> Now, if you say that a PRO user is a person that can't spend 145 euro to improve his workflow (but can pay 675 or more for a library) and save his time day by day, I don't agree. I think we are confusing Pro users with users with a bunch of SSDs full of libraries.
> 
> At this point I'd suggest VSL to include VI Pro with all their biggest libraries (and if they have to, rise the price accordingly) or to remove the VI standard and force to purchase the PRO version as only option (as it happens with Kontakt libraries that require the full Kontakt software).



Except the only vendors who release Kontakt libraries requiring the full version are 3rd parties who do not want to pay the license fee to release as a Player version so not comparable.

All your arguments are valid, but they are opinions not fact. Other developers do not limit this feature just to their Pro version.

And I do not think tinkering with buffers is just a Pro's prerogative.

But you conveniently chose not to address the statement "self-entitlement", which is what I find rather patronising and what gets wheeled out by those that disagree with a point of view.

You are free to see it how you choose, but other viewpoints are just as valid. Each to their own.

And for the record I have 3 machines with a total of 224GB ram and probably 5TB of SSD, but I still can see the points the OP raised as my early experiences with Play were equally frustrating.


----------



## FabioA (Jun 8, 2017)

procreative said:


> After all did VSL not tout their silent stage dry samples as the standard, but now they have at great expense created a stage with ambience, I wonder why the change of heart? Could it be that their competition has been achieving great sales with similar philosophies?



It indeed may sound like they given up with their philosophy, but the question is why?
They understood an high % of users (I'm probably one of them) can't achieve great results starting with dry samples because of few mixing skills?

Maybe they thought modern computer can now load much more samples into ram, ram required from multi-mic patches? Don't forget dry sample from vsl had the advantage (memory speaking) to be mono, and thanks to their reverb that takes into account the radiation patterns of instrument you could bring to live again an instrument. 

Maybe they want to keep going with both phylosphies, to make happy a larger % of users.

Least but not last, VSL didn't build an hall just for sampling instruments. They purchased this space to make also real orchestral recordings.


----------



## meradium (Jun 8, 2017)

I don't understand how using SSDs makes you a pro  These disks have decreased so much in cost... I know literally nobody who does not employ any of them...

I also will not understand how lowering the buffer setting automatically makes you a pro and justifies an additional fee...

Really strange logic here...

When you start playing around with samples everybody will immediately tell you to get SSDs... You can read it everywhere... Really strange.

I kind of also find it quite entertaining that there seem to be always the same two people who try to make a case for the decision to exclude the feature. Still trying to figure out what is at stake for you here...


----------



## FabioA (Jun 8, 2017)

It


meradium said:


> I don't understand how using SSDs makes you a pro  These disks have decreased so much in cost... I know literally nobody who does not employ any of them...
> 
> I also will not understand how lowering the buffer setting automatically makes you a pro and justifies an additional fee...
> 
> Really strange logic here...



It was a bit provocative..of course. 
I think if you would like, you'll able to read between lines.
Honestely, if we were drinkin in bar, discussing politicy or libraries company, I may agree with you some companies play too much with features, different version, etc.
But talking between pros (let's assume we are), I'd say you "shut up and just buy this **** piece of software, you won't regreat it.

Cubase now came into my mind. I'm pretty sure if you get the AI version, you still have some annoying limits, such us a limit to the total number of tracks, limit (very low) of virtual instruments, etc. Noways is full of free DAW without these limitations. Would you like to start now a thread against steinerg thar still limits the number of tracks in their basic version of Cubase? Why should be forced to purchase Cubase pro? It full out there of daws without those "basic" limitationd in 2017!


----------



## meradium (Jun 8, 2017)

Since you raised the Cubase flag here, I am in the process of trasitioning to Reaper. I am sick of Steinberg's one-size-must-fit-all strategy  It just takes a bit of time to get used to...

Feels uncomfortable when a thread like this keeps on popping up at the top, doesn't it?


----------



## clisma (Jun 8, 2017)

Cubase? What? Why did Cubase come up?

VSL's VI exists for the sole purpose of playing the VSL library. It's a really useless bit of software if you don't own a VSL library to open within it. Their Pro version, in all its excellency, provides for more features that are aimed at, sure why not, "Pro" users. To take out the flexibility of the buffer from their base player, therefore running the risk of alienating some customers who might run into problems, is simply bad business practice. There's nothing philosophical about this: it's a business decision - I'd argue not a smart one.

This does not mean VSL is crap or evil and it does not mean (in my eyes) that their products are inferior because of this.

Other software being limited does NOT factor in here: I repeat, VI exists for the sole purpose of playing back those samples: why would you want to restrict the user experience if potential problems could arise? The customer will simply be unhappy and choose not to spend any more money there. Again, business.

Now, meradium, personally, with the quality of the library you bought, I'd probably just spring for VI Pro and get it over with (or improve the hardware). But there's also the clear option of selling the library to a 3rd party and boycotting VSL.

Either way, I honestly believe it's good that you brought this up in a forum such as this. If you missed this point, so could many others who MAY run into problems.


----------



## babylonwaves (Jun 8, 2017)

meradium said:


> Feels uncomfortable when a thread like this keeps on popping up at the top, doesn't it?


no, keep it coming please. i currently suffer from writers block and the first results for the UK election are not in yet. this thread fills the gap just right


----------



## meradium (Jun 8, 2017)




----------



## Jimmy Hellfire (Jun 8, 2017)

NYC Composer said:


> I've noticed that through the years, VSL has carefully not responded in forums to matters regarding their pricing, nor have pricing policies been likely to change as a result of public pressure.



Yeah. I think that's great. People whine so much nowadays just because they own a computer. If I was a company, I wouldn't put myself in the position to justfiy myself and my pricing publically. 
Note that this has nothing to do with my personal opinion on VI PRO, its functions or its pricing, I mean this as a principal thing.


----------



## QLee (Jun 8, 2017)

I'd like to offer a new way to look at this issue. First of all I do think that it's a good time for VSL to add this feature to their free player now. 
VSL has been doing dry samples up until now, which does require relatively less ram compare to other multi-mics libraries. When ssd was populated personal computer had developed so well that basic home computer can handle those old single mic VSL libraries fine. The need for pre load adjustment is not so urgent for these legacy libraries.* However now this is the first time that VSL putting out multiple mic positions library which substantially increases the system load. People would very much appreciate pre load adjust functionality right out the box. Especially considering that they are gonna continue developing this Synchorn line I do think they should start thinking about adding features according to the new products. 

*This is definitely questionable. But I hope you get my point. 
*And I convinently ignored the dimension line.


----------

