# DORICO 3: finally a perfect match of notation and virtual instruments / sample libraries playback.



## Fa (Sep 6, 2019)

Yesterday was the day I was waiting (litterally) for years:
Steinberg Dorico 3

I love writing my music in a score, and had real pleasure using all the main notation software, but as all the people doing it often complain about, managing playback during composition was a pain. Only sequencers had the whole set of tools to create the right playback using controllers and midi parameters of advanced libraries and VIs.

Due to the fact often the right sound and expression is part of your creative process, postponing it to a late export of the written content to the sequencer was braking the workflow and annoying.

I was observing as a customer and supporter for years the Overture 4 and 5 project, the best product concept ever in notation IMHO, but unfortunately despite the heroic efforts of the one-man self-employed little company, after years and years Don still struggles to provide users with a stable and reliable product.

That's the reason for moving all my hope into Dorico from day 1, but we had to wait few years and some release before Steinberg Dorico team delivered the expected set of features... and now here we are.

Modern Libraries and VI like https://www.samplemodeling.com/en/products_strings.php (Sample Modeling Brass and Strings)
arehttps://www.samplemodeling.com/en/products_strings.phpheavily based on the interaction of velocities, durations, and a large set of controllers, beside multidimensional KS matrices. Now Dorico3 offers a fully functional sequencer-like MIDI editor of the notation track, and it's finally possible to get the more accurate playback of your score in parallel with your writing/composing, without the need of prematurely moving to a DAW.


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## I like music (Sep 6, 2019)

Is it the case that it gets you _almost_ there or do you think it could get you the exact expression you were looking to get with a DAW?


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## Fa (Sep 6, 2019)

I like music said:


> Is it the case that it gets you _almost_ there or do you think it could get you the exact expression you were looking to get with a DAW?


well actually it has all, really all the requested controllers (including PB) to make SM Strings and Brass sound the way you want, none is missing. In addition it has a mixer section with large insert options, by instrument (even by voice/layer). So you can use for every single instrument your favorite effect chain, including virtual stages, eq, and the final output reverb etc.

What you will do in the DAW later (if you need) will be just the ultimate mix and mastering.


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## I like music (Sep 6, 2019)

Part of why this interests me is because I cannot read music (I'm learning, through playing violin). I would be interested in using this for purposes of getting better at 'reading' scores and not just composition. But also for composition. If for example, I wrote a crescendo with brass which goes from a value of 25 > 105 (but it doesn't take a linear path, and has various little quirks and dips as it gradually gets louder) would I be able to essentially draw that in? Or would I be limited to writing p < FF (or can I define the route it takes from p < FF)? I hope the q makes sense.


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## Fa (Sep 6, 2019)

I like music said:


> Part of why this interests me is because I cannot read music (I'm learning, through playing violin). I would be interested in using this for purposes of getting better at 'reading' scores and not just composition. But also for composition. If for example, I wrote a crescendo with brass which goes from a value of 25 > 105 (but it doesn't take a linear path, and has various little quirks and dips as it gradually gets louder) would I be able to essentially draw that in? Or would I be limited to writing p < FF (or can I define the route it takes from p < FF)? I hope the q makes sense.


That's part of the point. Almost all the actual notation software have some playback engine connecting with rules simbols and playback (e.g. you draw hairpin crescendo and the software send a cc11 linear set of data from x to y according some arbitrary or preset rule).

But in this new generation of software you may open the MIDI track, and draw your precise cc11 curve, and couple it with your precise velocities note by note, and add manually any other requested CC to improve the result.

Advanced users can create "expression maps" and automatize a lot of the rules linking symbols and MIDI playback, to get the "20/80". Then your manual input can drive it to perfection with the "80/20" if you like. That was impossible for notation software before.


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## Vadium (Sep 6, 2019)

Fa said:


> fully functional sequencer


Modern libraries like CSS have complex patches with delays, depending on velocity. And fully functional sequencers have a compensation delay possibility (and in some cases, even it is not enough). Dorico 3 hasn't yet.

And, as I understand, if in Cubase it's possible to link symbols and keyswitches in expression map, for now Dorico does not allow you to do this (or, if I am not right, tell me how to do it?) - users must to set for note both keyswitch and symbol separately


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## richhickey (Sep 6, 2019)

Dorico is still missing many of the notation-to-playback features of e.g. Notion's rules system and I'm sure some of those of others. The playback options aren't integrated with the expression maps, several expression maps features still don't work, many articulations can't trigger playback techniques etc. The entire area of playback is still very much under development.

Yes, you now can edit pitch bend and velocity along with CCs (a single lane at a time). Thus you can, having entered a bunch of musical semantics into the notation, go in and enter them all in again by hand in the piano roll/CC lane. It's useful, but hardly a revolution in notation playback.

I say this not because I don't appreciate Dorico's new release - I do. But perhaps the OP can reserve some enthusiasm for the day when one can get as good a result, _given the notation alone_, with SM/AM and sample libs as one currently can with Note Performer, without extensive additional MIDI editing.


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## Fa (Sep 6, 2019)

Vadium said:


> Modern libraries like CSS have complex patches with delays, depending on velocity. And fully functional sequencers have a compensation delay possibility (and in some cases, even it is not enough). Dorico 3 hasn't yet.
> 
> And, as I understand, if in Cubase it's possible to link symbols and keyswitches in expression map, for now Dorico does not allow you to do this (or, if I am not right, tell me how to do it?) - users must to set for note both keyswitch and symbol separately



Not exactly: the MIDI track of course doesn't have all the functions of cubase, that's why I say for final mix you may move to DAW, but the audio engine has the same processing functions of cubase.

Yes Dorico has expression maps, a special version focusing on notation, but similar to Cubase. You may even import Cubase Xmaps and adapt them to the Dorico version for fine tuning.


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## Fa (Sep 6, 2019)

richhickey said:


> Dorico is still missing many of the notation-to-playback features of e.g. Notion's rules system and I'm sure some of those of others. The playback options aren't integrated with the expression maps, several expression maps features still don't work, many articulations can't trigger playback techniques etc. The entire area of playback is still very much under development.
> 
> Yes, you now can edit pitch bend and velocity along with CCs (a single lane at a time). Thus you can, having entered a bunch of musical semantics into the notation, go in and enter them all in again by hand in the piano roll/CC lane. It's useful, but hardly a revolution in notation playback.
> 
> I say this not because I don't appreciate Dorico's new release - I do. But perhaps the OP can reserve some enthusiasm for the day when one can get as good a result, _given the notation alone_, with SM/AM and sample libs as one currently can with Note Performer, without extensive additional MIDI editing.



Even if Notion or Sibelius rules are slightly more sophisticated than Dorico's xMaps, (but they are so difficult and complex to customize and program by the way) they don't allow you to access independent MIDI parameters of the track in the way Dorico does, so close to a common sequencer track. That's in my opinion the real advantage. I don't care of mechanic poor playback of the rules, but I love to ear something close to real sequencing directly in the score, while I'm composing it in notation format and full MIDI format in parallel.

i agree, the ultimate MIDI processor will be a Note Performer AI with custom parameters to drive SM/AM VI. I was even contacting producers to stimulate this enterprise


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## Vadium (Sep 6, 2019)

Fa said:


> Not exactly:


exactly yes, because compensation of this kind of delay is an important thing while notes recording/editing process, this must works before a final mix phase, about you say



Fa said:


> You may even import Cubase Xmaps and adapt them to the Dorico version for fine-tuning.


Yes, I know. but it's impossible (for now) to assign a symbol to keyswitch and vice versa.


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## Fa (Sep 6, 2019)

Vadium said:


> exactly yes, because compensation of this kind of delay is an important thing while notes recording/editing process, this must works before a final mix phase, about you say
> 
> 
> Yes, I know. but it's impossible (for now) to assign a symbol to keyswitch and vice versa.



I'm not sure if I understand your problem with compensation, but maybe it's just OT:
- Dorico engine has general latency compensation in the AUDIO engine menu. It's not by instruments, and it's not the scope of Dorico creating a sequence ready for recording. What I discuss about is getting the full palette of sound and expression from the VI during composition, that was impossible with any notation program before Dorico 3 (in theory it was possible with Overture 5, but it was prone to crash at every clic).

- About the new xMap of Dorico 3, I invite you to carefully read the instructions: now it's possible to create your own symbols and technics, and you may link them to the corresponding xMap item and trigger whatever combination of KS and/or controllers you want. (that feature was not available in Dorico 2)

Anyway I'm not defending or entering in detailed debate about strength and weakness of Dorico 3, that obviously is not replacing the DAW.

I wrote, and that's just based on facts, that finally you may enter in parallel all the PB, CC, Velocity and Duration changes to your instrument part, triggering the perfect sound and expression, thanks to the integrated MIDI editor, job that before was possible only in a sequencer.

Managing KS, even if not optimal, was already possible in Dorico and in all the other notation softwares. Now also in Dorico3 it's improved, and largely customizable. Still space for improvement, and a pretty intricate process: I hope they will make it more intuitive and user friendly in future release.


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## Bollen (Sep 6, 2019)

Vadium said:


> Modern libraries like CSS have complex patches with delays, depending on velocity. And fully functional sequencers have a compensation delay possibility (and in some cases, even it is not enough). Dorico 3 hasn't yet.



Yes you can, since version 1.something. You simply select the instrument in question that you wish to delay, open the properties panel below and click where it say offset playback. This is how I have done it for a while... It's not automatic, but then again... I would never let a computer make musical decisions for me...


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## Vadium (Sep 6, 2019)

Bollen said:


> You simply select the instrument in question that you wish to delay, open the properties panel below and click where it say offset playback.


Oh, great! How to find these properties? in which mode?


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## Bollen (Sep 6, 2019)

Vadium said:


> Oh, great! How to find these properties? in which mode?



In either Write or Engrave mode, bottom panel under notes and rests (Playback Start Offset/Playback end Offset). Of course you can always do this manually in the Play window.


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## Vadium (Sep 6, 2019)

Bollen said:


> (Playback Start Offset/Playback end Offset)


do you mean I should select no entire instrument track, but a notes each time after entering new ones? and it will shift notes in a keyroll editor graphically? It's seems as no useful.


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## Bollen (Sep 6, 2019)

Hmmm.. I think I lost you a bit. You can do it individually for any note or even objects like dynamics or you can apply it to the whole instrument i.e. everything you've written

Also yes, it shifts the note/notes in the key editor as well.


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## Vadium (Sep 6, 2019)

How to apply it to a whole instrument?

A normal way is: I set, for example, in Cubase -30ms on whole track in the track inspector. After it all notes, quantized to beats, appears as quantized to beats, but plays shifted to -30ms. Even all notes, that will be recorded in the future. Is it possible in Dorico?


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## Bollen (Sep 6, 2019)

I'm sorry, I'm not familiarised with how to do it in Cubase, I tend to do everything manually... Don't ask me why...

There are many ways to do it, the easiest might be click on the first note, then menu Edit > Select till the end of flow. The do the properties thingy...


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## Vadium (Sep 6, 2019)

Bollen said:


> There are many ways to do it, the easiest might be click on the first note, then menu Edit > Select till the end of flow. The do the properties thingy...


I understood, thank you. No, this way is a stone-age technology) Will waiting for a normal implementation in next releases.




Fa said:


> - About the new xMap of Dorico 3, I invite you to carefully read the instructions: now it's possible to create your own symbols and technics, and you may link them to the corresponding xMap item and trigger whatever combination of KS and/or controllers you want. (that feature was not available in Dorico 2)


Great! thank you for this clarification!

I have tried it today, and found, that it works strange - I made a new playback technique "Legato Bow", checked it in expression map and in edit playback technique page, but articulations in Write mode and in Play mode in pianoroll are different.. I have pizzicato in the second bar instead a Legato Bow, and Sustain in 3-rd bar instead of Staccato..


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## Bollen (Sep 6, 2019)

Vadium said:


> I understood, thank you. No, this way is a stone-age technology) Will waiting for a normal implementation in next releases.



There are several other ways of doing it that might be closer to how you prefer to do it, this is the one I use because it's quick and simple.



Vadium said:


> I have tried it today, and found, that it works strange - I made a new playback technique "Legato Bow", checked it in expression map and in edit playback technique page, but articulations in Write mode and in Play mode in pianoroll are different.. I have pizzicato in the second bar instead a Legato Bow, and Sustain in 3-rd bar instead of Staccato..



I strongly suggest you head over to the Dorico forum, there's loads of really friendly people there willing to help, the Devs are always on till really late at night and there's a general feeling of cooperation and mutual aid.


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## jaketanner (Sep 6, 2019)

Why is Dorico NOT the main notation software built into Cubase? It's the same thing with Pro Tools and Sibelieus...it's crazy that they can't just make things that work seamlessly with their own DAWs.


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## Bollen (Sep 6, 2019)

jaketanner said:


> Why is Dorico NOT the main notation software built into Cubase? It's the same thing with Pro Tools and Sibelieus...it's crazy that they can't just make things that work seamlessly with their own DAWs.



I suppose it's for the same reason Xcel, word and other's are not bundled together. You'd be surprised what a small minority people like us are i.e. notation composers that also do MIDI editing. The vast, vast majority of DAW users don't notate and the vast majority of notation composers (which is already a very small and niche group) don't do any playback editing whatsoever...

I do promise you though, that if I ever win the lottery this is what I'm investing in!


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## MaxOctane (Sep 6, 2019)

Whenever I try to write in Sibelius, only very stiff crap comes out. So instead I'll usually pull up a piano in Logic and just start playing, noodling around. Then it's a long find-the-good-parts and cleanup process. 

What I _want_ is to noodle around, then be able to go back and mark which notes are first beats. I want the software to then automagically fit the notes in between to proper notes. If the beats within a measure are ambiguous because my playing was too loose, then let me mark beat 2, 3, and 4. This would be such a quick way of getting clean notation. 

I know Sibelius doesn't support anything like this. Does Dorico?


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## shawnsingh (Sep 6, 2019)

MaxOctane said:


> Whenever I try to write in Sibelius, only very stiff crap comes out. So instead I'll usually pull up a piano in Logic and just start playing, noodling around. Then it's a long find-the-good-parts and cleanup process.
> 
> What I _want_ is to noodle around, then be able to go back and mark which notes are first beats. I want the software to then automagically fit the notes in between to proper notes. If the beats within a measure are ambiguous because my playing was too loose, then let me mark beat 2, 3, and 4. This would be such a quick way of getting clean notation.
> 
> I know Sibelius doesn't support anything like this. Does Dorico?



I've wished for this on the DAW side too. I want to be able to tap a beat with my left hand or foot and improvise. Where I get stuck thinking slowly, no problem I just pause or slow down. And then after that, have the DAW automatically warp the midi recording to fit a tempo and make educated guess about triplets, unintended pauses, etc. I actually did get a hacky version of this workflow using Cubase logical editing features, toggling between time and musical modes, and stitching the whole thing with a few macros. But I never did try to refine that process. It's something I want DAWs and scoring tools to implement as a first class feature. I was thinking of buying Reaper to see if it can be scripted in a better way than the macros I tried in Cubase.


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## joebaggan (Sep 7, 2019)

jaketanner said:


> Why is Dorico NOT the main notation software built into Cubase? It's the same thing with Pro Tools and Sibelieus...it's crazy that they can't just make things that work seamlessly with their own DAWs.



People have been asking for Dorico/Cubase integration since the dawn of Dorico, but here we are at 3.0 and not even the first attempt of that is apparent in the latest version. It appears Steinberg is fixated on getting up to speed with Sib/Finale feature-wise since that's their direct competition, rather than thinking of the big picture of what a notation/DAW integration would look like and potentially reaching thousands of Cubase users. I mean, Steinberg has this jewel of Cubase under its umbrella and have done exactly nothing with it thus far, but am sure they'll get around to it eventually.


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## Dex (Sep 7, 2019)

Fa said:


> Now Dorico3 offers a fully functional sequencer-like MIDI editor of the notation track, and it's finally possible to get the more accurate playback of your score in parallel with your writing/composing, without the need of prematurely moving to a DAW.



I never use it so I don't know, but isn't this how Reaper's notation view works? Notation with a synced midi+cc piano roll?


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## Fa (Sep 7, 2019)

Dex said:


> I never use it so I don't know, but isn't this how Reaper's notation view works? Notation with a synced midi+cc piano roll?


Nope. All the premium DAW have a kind of notation line, but it's pretty basic and limited in features. Dorico instead is a very sophisticated notation program, with a little basic MIDI editor.

So Reaper (and other premium DAW) and Dorico are actually specularly inverted for MIDI/notation features balance.


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## BlackDorito (Sep 7, 2019)

FYI, the expression map mechanism in Dorico 2 is simpler than Cubase's - perhaps the D3 release expands their features. In previous threads I mentioned the following (about Dorico 2) .. all things that can be easily done in Sibelius: 

I've had to learn a few things - for example 'sfz' is a 'dynamic' which will adjust CC#11 if your instrument's Expression Map so indicates ... thus if you want 'sfz' to cause a momentary articulation switch instead (e.g. for CSS) you need to define a 'playing technique' of that name (a *displayed* playing technique) and connect it to an *instrument* playing technique, which can then have CC/keyswitch actions associated with it in the Expression Map.
....
The Expression Map feature is just not working at the level of a professional tool at this point. It does not chase controllers/keyswitches correctly and I can see it in the MIDI stream. No matter what Playback techniques I define, it seems to think that it is always in Natural mode and doesn't bother to send the commands. Not chasing controllers correctly absolutely destroys my ability to tune/mix my piece and to create effective swells, crescendos, etc.
.....

If you have complex requirements for driving VST libraries with either discrete commands or with familiar notation markings, you might want to try the 30-day trial version of Dorico 2 (or wait about a month for the Dorico 3 trial) before taking the plunge.


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## mducharme (Sep 7, 2019)

jaketanner said:


> Why is Dorico NOT the main notation software built into Cubase? It's the same thing with Pro Tools and Sibelieus...it's crazy that they can't just make things that work seamlessly with their own DAWs.



In this case, it is an issue where Steinberg is afraid of breaking things for existing users. They do have some (albeit few) users of the previous Cubase notation feature, still present in current versions. If they replace the engine with Dorico, it will result in existing Cubase users not being able to view their edited notation in old files opened up in a modern Cubase version. I'm sure they are also a bit worried about whether users who buy Cubase and get a bundled "Dorico Lite" would still want to buy Dorico separately.

I don't think that Dorico can yet replace Cubase in any meaningful way, even with all the new DAW-like features being added into it. You'll still need to use both.


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## Mark Schmieder (Sep 7, 2019)

I just did the upgrade tonight. Looking forward to seeing if this product, in its latest incarnation, helps me to be more disciplined about using notation apps more than I do, without fear of duplicative work, or work that runs contrary to the needs of rendering sources such as Sample Modeling, as mentioned.


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## Sears Poncho (Sep 8, 2019)

joebaggan said:


> It appears Steinberg is fixated on getting up to speed with Sib/Finale feature-wise since that's their direct competition, rather than thinking of the big picture of what a notation/DAW integration would look like and potentially reaching thousands of Cubase users.


Another way to look at it...
I think the Holy Grail of sales would be schools. Not only in immediate sales but in lifelong customers. I have run into so many users of Finale/Sibelius etc and asked why they chose it: "It's what we learned on in school/college". 

I'm a Sibelius user. I think a lot of us are just waiting for the notation aspects to be caught up and then we'll jump ship. The Sibelius updates this year haven't even been worth mentioning or even downloading unless one has bug problems. The next update had better have "something" in it or I think people are gonna fly the coop.


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## Michael Antrum (Sep 8, 2019)

I didn’t renew my Sibelius subscription this year for my permanent licence. I cannot see what that money gave me in the last 12 months and I’m not aware of anything it will give me in the next 12 months. 

It’s almost extortion - pay me money for nothing of note or you can’t upgrade your software going forward. I’m getting closer to uninstalling Sibelius from my Mac....


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## prodigalson (Sep 8, 2019)

jaketanner said:


> Why is Dorico NOT the main notation software built into Cubase? It's the same thing with Pro Tools and Sibelieus...it's crazy that they can't just make things that work seamlessly with their own DAWs.



It seems more likely - and would make a lot more sense both financially and in practice - that we’ll see Dorico being improved to the point of the playback and MIDI editing capability being similar to Cubase rather than them combining both monsters of code into one behemoth that would be a nightmare to maintain and keep stable.

More people that use cubase just want cubase than people who use dorico just want dorico. 

Also, they are separate development teams. Combining software means combining teams and I would imagine that would severely impact the rate of development of both programs...which would make no one happy. I imagine Daniel Spreadbury is much happier that he only has to deal with his Dorico team. 

It’s also possible that down the line Cubase incorporates certain elements of Dorico and Doricos MIDI features get closer and closer to Cubase and IMO that’s better for the end user than trying to literally create: DORICUBASE!! or ....DORIBASE!! Or....CUBORICO!!!


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## Bollen (Sep 8, 2019)

MaxOctane said:


> Whenever I try to write in Sibelius, only very stiff crap comes out. So instead I'll usually pull up a piano in Logic and just start playing, noodling around. Then it's a long find-the-good-parts and cleanup process.
> 
> What I _want_ is to noodle around, then be able to go back and mark which notes are first beats. I want the software to then automagically fit the notes in between to proper notes. If the beats within a measure are ambiguous because my playing was too loose, then let me mark beat 2, 3, and 4. This would be such a quick way of getting clean notation.
> 
> I know Sibelius doesn't support anything like this. Does Dorico?


You sort of can.... I mean it's a different program so you would have to work with it differently. You can set up a staff with no key signature, but because it's a notation program it does need a specified tempo. I haven't tested if the tempo can be controlled by a MIDI controller, but if you could/can then that would be pretty close to what you're describing.

Dorico let's you copy anything and paste it anywhere, you can also specify time signatures and bar lines anywhere you want, so all in all it sounds like what you require is possible....


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## C-Wave (Sep 8, 2019)

BlackDorito said:


> FYI, the expression map mechanism in Dorico 2 is simpler than Cubase's - perhaps the D3 release expands their features. In previous threads I mentioned the following (about Dorico 2) .. all things that can be easily done in Sibelius:
> 
> I've had to learn a few things - for example 'sfz' is a 'dynamic' which will adjust CC#11 if your instrument's Expression Map so indicates ... thus if you want 'sfz' to cause a momentary articulation switch instead (e.g. for CSS) you need to define a 'playing technique' of that name (a *displayed* playing technique) and connect it to an *instrument* playing technique, which can then have CC/keyswitch actions associated with it in the Expression Map.
> ....
> ...


This might shed some light on what can be done in Dorico 3 as per playback improvements:

*Surprise no. 3: Expression map editor*

Opening the expression map editor in Dorico 3 was the biggest surprise of all. A whole bunch of cool new features are added to the *Expression Maps* editor to allow more detailed control of articulations and dynamics of any VST instrument.







There will be a detailed tutorial here on Scoring Notes within the next few weeks, but in short, a lot of features requested in the forum and in the Dorico Facebook group are added in Dorico 3.


It is now possible to use a secondary dynamic which can be assigned as key velocity or another CC. This is perfect for those libraries that allow an interaction between multiple dynamic controllers: expression + key velocity, expression + dynamic (sound), etc.
To every playing technique a midi-channel change can be assigned as absolute or relative. A library like EastWest Hollywood Strings does not have all articulations in one instrument, so multiple instances with all sort of articulations have to be added to cover them all. A good example is “staccato” which is not contained in the patch 06-keyswitch. A combination of keyswitch and MIDI channel change does the trick.
*Mutual Exclusion Groups* allow to define certain articulations which exclude each other. For instance, a pizzicato and a downbow is not the best combination playback-wise!
*Surprise no. 4: Play mode improvements*

Some very interesting features have been added to the tracks in *Play mode*.





It is now possible to assign every voice in a staff to a separate VST instrument which runs fully independently. So it is possible to assign a flute sound to voice 1 and a clarinet sound to voice 2 and they will be played back as two players usually would do, using their own articulations and dynamics. This can be assigned for all flows or just the current flow. Once the switch is set to *Enable independent playback of voices*, you can step through the voices using the dropdown menu and assign VST instruments and a MIDI channel for each voice.
Dorico 3 now has a separate lane for key velocity per track. This allows for a detailed adjustment of entered or recorded velocities. A selected CC or a key velocity can be adjusted by entering a numerical value. This makes thing a lot easier when it comes to excessive editing.
The dropdown menu of the MIDI-CC lane has been enriched with a pitch bend control. In the real world, this varies all the time based on the function of the note and chord, as it’s something a musician does instinctively. If you are a fan of the orchestra tuning (alternate tuning) where, for instance, a major 3rd of the tonic has to be played 13.7 cents lower than equal temperament, you’ll like this.

From: https://www.scoringnotes.com/reviews/dorico-3-changes-the-score/


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## Sears Poncho (Sep 8, 2019)

Michael Antrum said:


> I didn’t renew my Sibelius subscription this year for my permanent licence. I cannot see what that money gave me in the last 12 months and I’m not aware of anything it will give me in the next 12 months.
> 
> It’s almost extortion - pay me money for nothing of note or you can’t upgrade your software going forward. I’m getting closer to uninstalling Sibelius from my Mac....


I did recently but I was 2-3 years behind. The multi-edit stuff is cool, a few other things like the ability to delete the first measure without copy/paste etc. It seems this calendar year that they have done almost nothing. If they don't have any meaningful update by the end of the year, I'm out.... which is why I'm in a Dorico thread.


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## jaketanner (Sep 8, 2019)

prodigalson said:


> It seems more likely - and would make a lot more sense both financially and in practice - that we’ll see Dorico being improved to the point of the playback and MIDI editing capability being similar to Cubase rather than them combining both monsters of code into one behemoth that would be a nightmare to maintain and keep stable.
> 
> More people that use cubase just want cubase than people who use dorico just want dorico.
> 
> ...


It just seems odd that they don't talk to each other smoothly...being from the same company and all. I do get what you're saying, but even if it worked as rewire works for other DAWs...but I think at best, as you said...we may see elements of Dorico in the notation software of Cubase...OR maybe they can just work on making the current notation software a bit better.


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## mducharme (Sep 8, 2019)

prodigalson said:


> It seems more likely - and would make a lot more sense both financially and in practice - that we’ll see Dorico being improved to the point of the playback and MIDI editing capability being similar to Cubase rather than them combining both monsters of code into one behemoth that would be a nightmare to maintain and keep stable.



I agree that Dorico will have further playback improvements, but I don't think it will ever replace Cubase in a serious way. I also think it would be a bad idea to try to merge the products together (the UI design is too different) and I highly doubt they would even try that.

I think that Steinberg should replace the existing notation engine in Cubase with Dorico's. I might be mistaken, but I don't think enough people really use the old scoring engine that they would care if it was removed and replaced with the Dorico engine, and I think that that is what Steinberg is worried about. Dorico's default engraving out of the box is much better than Cubase's, and if you could export a .dorico file from Cubase instead of having to use MusicXML it would significantly simplify the workflow. The Cubase score view (rendered by Dorico) could function instead like DP's QuickScribe feature. If you use expression maps in Cubase that are associated with articulations and playing technique text (ex. arco, pizz) those would be brought over in the .dorico file. That is the workflow I would personally really love to see, and I think Cubase users who also want this should tell Steinberg that they would love to see this and won't revolt at the removal of the old score editor.


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## jonnybutter (Sep 8, 2019)

I have a couple general questions for Dorico users if anyone knows and cares to answer them. 

1.

Can you work atonally in Dorico, or do you have to be in a key, like in Sibelius? It may seem like a small thing, but being forced into a key (including C major) can be limiting.

and 2:

One of the few things I loved about the composition process in Finale was the ability to scrub an entire score, something Sibelius couldn't do (you had to listen in real time in Sibelius). Sometimes when you're dealing with large complex chords, it's great to be able to hear the whole thing at once, just scrubbing as you please, not in tempo. Anybody know what I mean, and can Dorico do that?

thanks


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## mducharme (Sep 8, 2019)

jonnybutter said:


> Can you work atonally in Dorico



Yes



> Sometimes when you're dealing with large complex chords, it's great to be able to hear the whole thing at once, just scrubbing as you please, not in tempo. Anybody know what I mean, and can Dorico do that?



No, not yet. You can just play back a selection of staves by selecting those and hitting play, but it plays back in tempo.


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## jonnybutter (Sep 8, 2019)

mducharme said:


> Yes
> 
> 
> 
> No, not yet. You can just play back a selection of staves by selecting those and hitting play, but it plays back in tempo.



Great news about atonality! Too bad about scrubbing. Hope it's on their list!

thank you Michael!


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## mducharme (Sep 8, 2019)

jonnybutter said:


> Great news about atonality! Too bad about scrubbing. Hope it's on their list!
> 
> thank you Michael!



Please note, currently I don't think you can choose the atonal key signature through the GUI - you have to press Shift-K (to activate the create key signature popover) and type the word "atonal"


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## Audio Birdi (Sep 8, 2019)

Michael Antrum said:


> I didn’t renew my Sibelius subscription this year for my permanent licence. I cannot see what that money gave me in the last 12 months and I’m not aware of anything it will give me in the next 12 months.
> 
> It’s almost extortion - pay me money for nothing of note or you can’t upgrade your software going forward. I’m getting closer to uninstalling Sibelius from my Mac....


The Pro Tools update was very much like this too, having not many features and they are dragging their feed and got rid of the ideascale too! :/ so we don't even know what features may be added next and if at all!

This is where Dorico has been very interesting in terms of the team learning from what they did with Sibelius and literally going a 180 degree directions and aiming to make it easy to use and intuitive, with more and more features being added each 0.1 update.


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## mducharme (Sep 8, 2019)

Audio Birdi said:


> The Pro Tools update was very much like this too, having not many features and they are dragging their feed and got rid of the ideascale too! :/ so we don't even know what features may be added next and if at all!



I get the sense that Avid is desperately trying to show a profit for their investors (after mismanagement for years caused heavy losses). As a result, they are doing the bare minimum when it comes to adding new features, whatever they think is barely enough that most people will renew the subscription. If they add fewer new features and basically everybody renews their subscription, their profits go up.


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## Sears Poncho (Sep 8, 2019)

jonnybutter said:


> One of the few things I loved about the composition process in Finale was the ability to scrub an entire score, something Sibelius couldn't do (you had to listen in real time in Sibelius).


Sibelius recently added this feature.


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## jonnybutter (Sep 9, 2019)

Sears Poncho said:


> Sibelius recently added this feature.



Wow, really?! I abandoned Sibelius a couple years ago and am not going back, but I take this as great news because it means Dorico will probably do it too.


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## jonnybutter (Sep 9, 2019)

mducharme said:


> Please note, currently I don't think you can choose the atonal key signature through the GUI - you have to press Shift-K (to activate the create key signature popover) and type the word "atonal"



At least it's possible! Thanks again


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## Sears Poncho (Sep 9, 2019)

jonnybutter said:


> Wow, really?! I abandoned Sibelius a couple years ago and am not going back, but I take this as great news because it means Dorico will probably do it too.


I had never tried it. Just did, it works. One selects the staves then uses the [ ] buttons to move back and forth. Note by note/chord, can go backwards or forwards, if a button is held down it will move real fast. It also has a loop feature and a half-speed feature now.


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## Bollen (Sep 9, 2019)

I feel compelled to share my feelings about Dorico for those sitting on the fence. When I am composing/writing music I giggle like a school girl for how easy it is to do everything (after a year of getting used to how things are done that is). 
When I'm in engraving I laugh madly because there's nothing to do! Unlike the equal time spent writing and engraving in good ol' Sibelius... But when I'm in Play mode (the piano roll thingy) I tear my hair out in fury!!! It's so bloody buggy and unintuitive, the very opposite of the rest of the program... In fact I would go as far as saying it feels like a different program altogether, made by a completely different developer, a much more incompetent one and also one who has never seen or used a DAW. Just a few points to illustrate:

1.- You can't zoom in with the mouse, you have to use Z and X for horizontal zooming

2.- Vertical zooming is accomplished by putting the moues pointer over the keyboard in the piano roll (which is really small) and drag up/down while holding SHIFT down... What???? Ah! And you also have a few limited options of zoom from unreadable (notes look thinner than a needle) to next position being too tall to see for example right and left hand on a piano. The next position is huge and pointless, etc.

3.- Expanding the windows is super finicky! You have to find an almost invisible black bar in a corner of the track and then drag it down.

4.- The velocity bars are so wide (fat) that almost all voices overlap making it extremely difficult to edit them.

5.- There's no selection of notes... Yes, you read correctly, you cannot edit the velocity, position nor length of multiple notes at the same time. You have to do it one at a time or you can try to draw with the pencil and hope for the best (since there's no selection it will apply to everything).

6.- No tools available on right click, but at the same time only three tools are available with a shortcut, select, draw and erase. Lines are separate from draw and don't have a shortcut nor can you assign one. There's also only one type of line.

7.- The mouse pointer changes randomly from typical pointer to a hand, making selections of individual notes a pain in the arse...!

I could go on about the buginess, how it takes two or three clicks for things to actually select, how there's no fine editing (things just make huge leaps), sometimes when trying to edit a starting position the note will reset itself and cover the whole beat or bar... Etc. Sigh!

Despite all this I still highly recommend it, it's a beast of a program! And the fact that I can edit performance as I compose well... Despite all the rubbish mentioned above, it's still a massive bonus! And did I mention that you can work on more than one window and/or tabs? I like to have my score on my portrait monitor and the piano roll window on the normal vertical one, so I never get lost and I can jump from one to the other like nothing!


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## Bollen (Sep 9, 2019)

jonnybutter said:


> At least it's possible! Thanks again


Actually no, Dorico writes by default atonal...


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## mducharme (Sep 9, 2019)

Bollen said:


> Actually no, Dorico writes by default atonal...



Yes, you are certainly correct in that. By default when you start a new project in Dorico, it is atonal. But when importing MusicXML you have to force atonal in that way (at least I have experienced that). Otherwise you can't get rid of the pre-existing key signature.


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## mducharme (Sep 9, 2019)

Bollen said:


> But when I'm in Play mode (the piano roll thingy) I tear my hair out in fury!!! It's so bloody buggy and unintuitive



I agree 100% - but I don't think it is ever the point of the program to replace Cubase. After all - if they made the Play mode too good in Dorico, who would buy Cubase instead?


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## wcreed51 (Sep 10, 2019)

Dorico's Play mode seems to have been developed by engineers rather than by musicians.

I think Overture's hybrid staff/PRV is the perfect solution.


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## joebaggan (Sep 10, 2019)

Dorico's Play Mode is half baked at best, and it begs the question of why they'd try to build out DAW features there when they've got Cubase under the same company umbrella, but thus far they have made no progress in integrating their own products. It's not clear they've sat down with their own Cubase folks to even create a product roadmap about how to deliver an integrated solution.


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## ptram (Sep 10, 2019)

The Play mode in Dorico is a totally different concept than any DAW. In Dorico, two layers always exist – one for visual representation, the other for playback. The Score mode of most DAWs tries to do their best automatic interpretation of realtime data. The Play mode of Dorico lets you finely edit the relation between the two layers. It's something a typical DAW user, only interested in correct playback and acceptable score production, doesn't need, while a composer working with written score absolutely needs.

Paolo


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## Bollen (Sep 10, 2019)

mducharme said:


> I agree 100% - but I don't think it is ever the point of the program to replace Cubase. After all - if they made the Play mode too good in Dorico, who would buy Cubase instead?



Well personally I think the answer is obvious, Cubase will always have a place for mixing and mastering. I doubt a notation programs will ever have all the necessary tools for professional production... And I wouldn't want it in any case, notation is elaborate enough.


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## Bollen (Sep 10, 2019)

wcreed51 said:


> Dorico's Play mode seems to have been developed by engineers rather than by musicians.
> 
> I think Overture's hybrid staff/PRV is the perfect solution.



True... If only you could get Overture to actually do anything without crashing...


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## rudi (Sep 10, 2019)

Or get Notion to add CC lanes...


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## C-Wave (Sep 10, 2019)

An ARA implementation of Dorico in Cubase, similar to what they did with Melodyne, would be ideal. Cubase 10.5?


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## wcreed51 (Sep 10, 2019)

Bollen said:


> True... If only you could get Overture to actually do anything without crashing...



It's come a long way; I hardy have any crashes lately (on PC).


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## Bollen (Sep 10, 2019)

wcreed51 said:


> It's come a long way; I hardy have any crashes lately (on PC).



Hardly is not within the acceptable tolerance of my professional work... Have you sorted the routing problem you had? I'm assuming you're the same wcreed from the Dorico forums...


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 10, 2019)

Bollen said:


> True... If only you could get Overture to actually do anything without crashing...



I used and enjoyed very much Ov4 some years ago, but Ov5 has not been a smooth experience for me on the mac. I paid for a beta that has never really worked right. Maybe it will get there some day but in my view its an understaffed product that will remain a boutique notational program for a relatively small group of people and I don't have time to mess around with it until I see a lot more critical mass, which it currently does not have. Dorico is becoming an industry work horse and I believe it will become everything that ov5 won't.


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## wcreed51 (Sep 10, 2019)

Yes, that's me. I need to start a fresh score and try again. I have the proverbial day job and a house that needs endless attention, so haven't had a chance


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## Bollen (Sep 10, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> I used and enjoyed very much Ov4 some years ago, but Ov5 has not been a smooth experience for me on the mac. I paid for a beta that has never really worked right. Maybe it will get there some day but in my view its an understaffed product that will remain a boutique notational program for a relatively small group of people and I don't have time to mess around with it until I see a lot more critical mass, which it currently does not have. Dorico is becoming an industry work horse and I believe it will become everything that ov5 won't.



No to mention that the difference in support is like that difference between heaven and hell! I found the Overture guy to be the most insufferable and rude person I've ever dealt with...


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## Bollen (Sep 10, 2019)

wcreed51 said:


> Yes, that's me. I need to start a fresh score and try again. I have the proverbial day job and a house that needs endless attention, so haven't had a chance



Well let me know if you need help, since we are both working on similar things...


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## joebaggan (Sep 10, 2019)

ptram said:


> The Play mode in Dorico is a totally different concept than any DAW. In Dorico, two layers always exist – one for visual representation, the other for playback. The Score mode of most DAWs tries to do their best automatic interpretation of realtime data. The Play mode of Dorico lets you finely edit the relation between the two layers. It's something a typical DAW user, only interested in correct playback and acceptable score production, doesn't need, while a composer working with written score absolutely needs.
> 
> Paolo



I'm not seeing the difference between the playback "layer" in Dorico vs. how a DAW like Cubase plays back Midi files. I'm assuming that Dorico is playing back Midi derived from the score, sending Midi messages to whatever VST you have configured just like Cubase. Of course, Cubase has great Midi editing/viewing capability that you'd want to take advantage of, all the controller lanes, midi functions, logical editor etc. All of that would be useful to someone wanting more refined playback from a notated score. So I could see at least the Cubase Midi functionality being integrated with Dorico in some way.


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## TimCox (Sep 10, 2019)

Vadium said:


> Modern libraries like CSS have complex patches with delays, depending on velocity. And fully functional sequencers have a compensation delay possibility (and in some cases, even it is not enough). Dorico 3 hasn't yet.


If you're talking about negative track delay for patches that require early attack, Dorico already had that. You have to select the notes and apply a negative ms to it but it works. I don't know how they handle it in Dorico 3.


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## prodigalson (Sep 10, 2019)

joebaggan said:


> I'm not seeing the difference between the playback "layer" in Dorico vs. how a DAW like Cubase plays back Midi files. I'm assuming that Dorico is playing back Midi derived from the score, sending Midi messages to whatever VST you have configured just like Cubase. Of course, Cubase has great Midi editing/viewing capability that you'd want to take advantage of, all the controller lanes, midi functions, logical editor etc. All of that would be useful to someone wanting more refined playback from a notated score. So I could see at least the Cubase Midi functionality being integrated with Dorico in some way.



I think he’s referring to the way you can edit midi in playback (change lengths, add negative delay etc, nudge notes etc) and it won’t necessarily be reflected in the notation as opposed to most DAWs where the piano roll/midi editor is just a different visual reepresentation of the same information as the score. Hence the two independent “layers”? 

I think that’s the gist anyway?


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## Vadium (Sep 10, 2019)

TimCox said:


> Dorico already had that. You have to select the notes and apply a negative ms to it but it works.


as I wrote in previous posts, this way is uncomfortable. overall track delay must be present as a minimum for fast work. Also, input midi monitoring on/off switch must be present


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## ptram (Sep 10, 2019)

prodigalson said:


> you can edit midi in playback (change lengths, add negative delay etc, nudge notes etc) and it won’t necessarily be reflected in the notation as opposed to most DAWs where the piano roll/midi editor is just a different visual reepresentation of the same information as the score. Hence the two independent “layers”?


Yes, it's what I’m referring to. Thank you for clarifying!

Paolo


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## Vavastrasza (Sep 11, 2019)

Is the crossgrade option from Sibelius no longer available? It's mentioned on the Buy page but when I try to make the purchase, the verification options don't include Sibelius. No answer from Steinberg support.


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## mducharme (Sep 11, 2019)

Vavastrasza said:


> Is the crossgrade option from Sibelius no longer available? It's mentioned on the Buy page but when I try to make the purchase, the verification options don't include Sibelius. No answer from Steinberg support.



Please see: https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=246&t=167426


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## TimCox (Sep 12, 2019)

Vadium said:


> as I wrote in previous posts, this way is uncomfortable. overall track delay must be present as a minimum for fast work. Also, input midi monitoring on/off switch must be present


Definitely agree, I must've just missed your other posts.


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## C-Wave (Sep 12, 2019)

the funniest thing to me is that we are now in version 3 and the software still requires a whitelist text file to recognize some very popular Virtual Instruments (Omnisphere, Komplete Kontrol, etc..), and VST's are listed alphabetically in a drop down list, instead of a tree format by category or manufacturer.


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## mducharme (Sep 12, 2019)

C-Wave said:


> the funniest thing to me is that we are now in version 3 and the software still requires a whitelist text file to recognize some very popular Virtual Instruments (Omnisphere, Komplete Kontrol, etc..), and VST's are listed alphabetically in a drop down list, instead of a tree format by category or manufacturer.



The whitelist is only needed for VST2 instruments and effects, not VST3 instruments and effects. Unfortunately most vendors have not yet updated to VST3.


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## C-Wave (Sep 12, 2019)

mducharme said:


> The whitelist is only needed for VST2 instruments and effects, not VST3 instruments and effects. Unfortunately most vendors have not yet updated to VST3.


OK, that is the technical explanation;how this is happening.. But you know, my question was not how is this but WHY this is? at version 3.0?


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## mducharme (Sep 12, 2019)

C-Wave said:


> OK, that is the technical explanation;how this is happening.. But you know, my question was not how is this but WHY this is? at version 3.0?



My understanding is that they were running into issues with VST2 plugins causing Dorico to become unstable, so they disabled them by default. All VST3 plugins (due to the different architecture) did not experience this problem. I believe they were hoping that most plugins would be updated to VST3 soon enough that it would not become an issue. Unfortunately that has not happened yet.

Dorico was never meant to be a DAW. The playback functions are always secondary to notation. I don't think it makes sense for them to spend time on making VST2 plugins work globally, given that context. I would rather see notation improvements.


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## richhickey (Sep 13, 2019)

mducharme said:


> My understanding is that they were running into issues with VST2 plugins causing Dorico to become unstable, so they disabled them by default. All VST3 plugins (due to the different architecture) did not experience this problem. I believe they were hoping that most plugins would be updated to VST3 soon enough that it would not become an issue. Unfortunately that has not happened yet.
> 
> Dorico was never meant to be a DAW. The playback functions are always secondary to notation. I don't think it makes sense for them to spend time on making VST2 plugins work globally, given that context. I would rather see notation improvements.



I don't believe that for a second. VST2 was not supported because Steinberg is on a mission to force everyone to VST3 and is trying to move in that direction by having this new product never support VST2 in the first place. Obviously, given the state of the plugin market and lackluster adoption of VST3, that's untenable, thus this whitelist nonsense.

Dorico uses an external Cubase-derived process to host VSTs and certainly Steinberg can do VST2 stably: they invented the tech and Cubase can do it. The Dorico team has been saddled with some corporate strategy here, there's no technical reason - they didn't feel like spending effort supporting VST2. But of course they _can_, and the whitelist proves it.


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## joebaggan (Sep 13, 2019)

mducharme said:


> Dorico was never meant to be a DAW. The playback functions are always secondary to notation. I don't think it makes sense for them to spend time on making VST2 plugins work globally, given that context. I would rather see notation improvements.



What is the point of having Playback functionality at all if it's going to be done half baked? Users of notation software are pretty used to lousy Playback support, so if Steinberg just wants to meet the bar set by others, that's fine. But if they want to stand out from the pack and reach musicians/composers and not just engravers, they're going to have to build out Midi playback/editing support to allow high quality mockups, or allow integration with Cubase to do the job.


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## richhickey (Sep 13, 2019)

joebaggan said:


> What is the point of having Playback functionality at all if it's going to be done half baked? Users of notation software are pretty used to lousy Playback support, so if Steinberg just wants to meet the bar set by others, that's fine. But if they want to stand out from the pack and reach musicians/composers and not just engravers, they're going to have to build out Midi playback/editing support to allow high quality mockups, or allow integration with Cubase to do the job.



Yep. And it's obviously something they want to claim, as this is the first sentence of their description of Dorico:



> Dorico helps you to write music notation, automatically producing printed results of exceptional quality — and plays it back with breathtaking realism.



I keep waiting for a release that demonstrates in the playback area the same deep thinking and quality of implementation they've done elsewhere - e.g. when adding percussion, trills, guitar notation, condensing etc - all extremely impressive.

So far the playback support has seemed ad hoc, incremental, inconsistent, incomplete, not well thought out and quite frankly broken. I'm concerned that they don't have someone with the deep understanding of what's needed as they obviously do with the notation side.


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## Bollen (Sep 13, 2019)

mducharme said:


> The whitelist is only needed for VST2 instruments and effects, not VST3 instruments and effects. Unfortunately most vendors have not yet updated to VST3.


Ah! I was wondering what C-wave was on about, but then I realised that I use VE Pro to host everything so I hadn't noticed this issue...



richhickey said:


> So far the playback support has seemed ad hoc, incremental, inconsistent, incomplete, not well thought out and quite frankly broken. I'm concerned that they don't have someone with the deep understanding of what's needed as they obviously do with the notation side.



Although I totally support your feelings and conclusions I do not agree with your statement. Incomplete, hardly and broke most certainly not... I was already able to do quality mock-ups in version 2, as long as the instruments used didn't require velocity edits (I used transformers or other CCs for pitch bend). In version 3 I'll agree that it's a pain in the arse and everything else I mentioned in my review above, but you can certainly do everything! Which is nothing something that's possible on any other program in existence at the moment...

Dorico's play window is annoying, buggy, unintuitive, awful and badly designed, but it gets the job done, it doesn't crash (never had one), freeze or get weird on me, it's just really uncomfortable to work with... But it's been said already, it's a notation program first and considering the speed of improvements on that side, my guess is that they're leaving themselves space for future improvements. The DAW level of features is probably reserved for when they have completely overtaken all the other competitors in the notation market...


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## mducharme (Sep 13, 2019)

Dorico also has built in playback of things like microtonal accidentals in a single chord, which VST3 makes possible due to note expression. I would rather manufacturers update their products to VST3 to allow for use of these microtonal accidentals instead of staying on VST2 where they are either unusable or have to be placed on separate tracks and pitchbend used for microtones.


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## Wallander (Sep 13, 2019)

mducharme said:


> Dorico also has built in playback of things like microtonal accidentals in a single chord, which VST3 makes possible due to note expression. I would rather manufacturers update their products to VST3 to allow for use of these microtonal accidentals instead of staying on VST2 where they are either unusable or have to be placed on separate tracks and pitchbend used for microtones.


Actually, Dorico supports microtuning per-note for VST2 as well. But I don’t know if any instruments besides NotePerformer supports it.


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## C-Wave (Sep 13, 2019)

Functionality can be argued, mostly can get the job done.. but nobody should deny that the Play tab interface is certainly half baked, including VST management. So very upset as far as "usability" (U/X) is concerned when it comes to the *Play* tab.
As mentioned above Steinberg prides itself in the usability of Dorico.. I'd like to see them bring the Play tab to the same level of usability, without me having to wait another year amd shed another $113 (Canada here.. Steinberg makes us pay extra here for the love).


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## mducharme (Sep 13, 2019)

Wallander said:


> Actually, Dorico supports microtuning per-note for VST2 as well. But I don’t know if any instruments besides NotePerformer supports it.



Thanks for this information, Arne, I didn't realize. How did they accomplish this with VST2? My understanding is normally with VST2 the only way you can do it is with pitchbend which affects everything on the channel. Do they split the chord across multiple channels dynamically when such a chord is encountered and a single pitchbend doesn't work for the entire thing?


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## Wallander (Sep 13, 2019)

mducharme said:


> Thanks for this information, Arne, I didn't realize. How did they accomplish this with VST2? My understanding is normally with VST2 the only way you can do it is with pitchbend which affects everything on the channel. Do they split the chord across multiple channels dynamically when such a chord is encountered and a single pitchbend doesn't work for the entire thing?


No, there’s actually a variable called ”detune” that accompanies the MIDI message in VST2. It specifies the detune for that note in cents (-63 to +64 cents). It’s always been there in the VST2 standard, but I don’t know of other hosts that support it.


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## mducharme (Sep 13, 2019)

richhickey said:


> I don't believe that for a second. VST2 was not supported because Steinberg is on a mission to force everyone to VST3 and is trying to move in that direction by having this new product never support VST2 in the first place. Obviously, given the state of the plugin market and lackluster adoption of VST3, that's untenable, thus this whitelist nonsense.
> 
> Dorico uses an external Cubase-derived process to host VSTs and certainly Steinberg can do VST2 stably: they invented the tech and Cubase can do it. The Dorico team has been saddled with some corporate strategy here, there's no technical reason - they didn't feel like spending effort supporting VST2. But of course they _can_, and the whitelist proves it.



FYI, there is this older post from Daniel @ Sibelius (https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=97323):



Daniel at Steinberg said:


> As for VST 2 support, we may whitelist a few VST 2 instruments that we know are well-behaved, but my colleagues in Hamburg tell me that one of the leading causes of crashes and other problems in Cubase is due to VST 2 plug-ins. Across Steinberg we are really strongly trying to encourage adoption of VST 3 and so we want to set off on the right foot with Dorico.
> 
> I think Kontakt is the canonical example of a well-behaved VST 2 plug-in, so it would be on the short whitelist of VST 2 plug-ins that Dorico would load without complaint. This, at least, is certainly what I have discussed with my colleagues who are working on the audio engine for us.


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## mducharme (Sep 13, 2019)

Vavastrasza said:


> Is the crossgrade option from Sibelius no longer available? It's mentioned on the Buy page but when I try to make the purchase, the verification options don't include Sibelius. No answer from Steinberg support.



Just to clarify, there is currently a problem in the system where the option "Dorico Crossgrade" instead reads "Dorico Crossgrade from Finale". The incorrectly labeled "from Finale" is actually the crossgrade from all qualifying competing products.


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## Gil (Oct 8, 2019)

Hello,
Dorico 3 demo is available:








Dorico 3.0.10 bug fix update and 30-day trial released – Dorico


We have today released a minor update to Dorico Pro 3 and Dorico Elements 3 that brings nearly 90 bug fixes and improvements. We have also today made available the 30-day trial versions of Dorico Pro 3 and Dorico Elements 3, so if you have been waiting for the chance to try all of the […]




blog.dorico.com


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## jonnybutter (Jan 5, 2020)

mducharme said:


> Yes, you are certainly correct in that. By default when you start a new project in Dorico, it is atonal. But when importing MusicXML you have to force atonal in that way (at least I have experienced that). Otherwise you can't get rid of the pre-existing key signature.



Well, yes and no. I finally have time now to demo Dorico, and I notice that when you alt-up/down arrow to move notes on a stave, it moves them diatonically in C major even if you haven't chosen a key! That is really bad - just like Sibelius 6. There's another key command (alt shift?) to move them chromatically, but really, chromatic should be the default (even if you *are* in a key). I don't understand this. It just seems like one of those unwelcome 'suggestions' - bad bits of 'help' you never wanted, and that get in the way rather than helping. Like iMovie. Why would they do this? You can't add bars until you choose a meter, which is logical, so why would you default to a key before choosing one?

I also really miss the scrubbing of the whole score like Finale had 10 years ago. I know not everyone cares about this, but if you're a composer it's a great feature, and a genuinely new capability compared to pencil, paper, and piano. Up thread someone says even Sibelius has this now although I don't think it's the same - you have to select what you want to scrub (which has good and bad points I suppose). In Finale, you just held (I think) the shift key and dragged across the score at any speed. Really fast and brilliant.

While Dorico is a bit on the buggy side, it also has lots of wonderful features - the reverse explode feature in D3 is really great, although it doesn't seem to work in realtime recording, which is too bad (unless I'm just wrong about that). The chord distributes across the staves pretty well on playback, but you don't hear all the instruments when you're playing. The 'Set up' and 'Write' UIs are really good - simple and logical. 'Play' is weird, but that's not a deal breaker for me. Haven't gotten to Engrave yet, but I expect that to be very good.

Quantizing playback of realtime entry notes is too fiddly - that should be simple (it's not) and more flexible, quantize-wise.

Dorico is an improvement on Sibelius and Finale for sure, but...it feels kind of stodgy or something. I know that's vague, but I guess I expected super responsive, lean code, and it feels...teetery and hesitant at times.

I have both Sibelius and Finale, so it's going to be worth the crossgrade price, and no doubt it will get better. It's a fine application, but doesn't feel like a breakthrough. Maybe it doesn't have to be.

oh well, my 2c

EDIT: Just to be clear, I want an application which is a tool for _composition_, not primarily an engraving app. I need good visual output, but I'm not a professional engraver like some of you. Good parts and scores are icing (very delicious icing!) on the cake for me. But fast, intuitive input and feedback is what I'm really after, and Dorico is not quite there yet - soon I hope.


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## ptram (Aug 13, 2020)

jonnybutter said:


> One of the few things I loved about the composition process in Finale was the ability to scrub an entire score


Dorico can't do it as in Finale. But you can change the Tempo Mode (metronome icon) to Fixed, and play back at a faster speed.

Paolo


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## Al Maurice (Aug 13, 2020)

I realise that Dorico seems like a Mark 2 to Sibelius, considering the devs heritage, but to compare the two even to Finale at this stage is a bit premature. Once they reach version 5 or 6 let's see then. But it's still much newer in comparison. Finale and Sibelius have both had light years of development even if it's slowed to a snails pace. 

Still compared to Finale which traps you in the measure, Dorico is like a walk in the park with much more freedom as I can vere off the path if I want. Something I found almost impossible with Finale. So if you're used to working with key commands then you can work quite fast in note entry.

Sure playback still requires a lot of work, but for engraving you can get almost there at speed and it has lots of configuration options to tweak your output without too much effort. And seeing as it looks in all likelihood as though Dorico is built on top of Cubase sound engine, I can only expect this area to improve over time.


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## MatthieuD (Aug 13, 2020)

In case someone is interested, I find Notion to be extremely convincing for making MIDI mockups ! The big downside is that there are almost no tutorials to show how deep you can go between this software and the sound libraries (and I don't have time to do that at the moment).

Here are some examples of mockups I made using Notion :







(I am not affiliated with or paid in any way by Notion, but I am just a happy and enthusiastic user of this software  )


Matthieu


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## danbo (Sep 15, 2020)

For those talking about replacing the Cubase notation that actually isn't the best approach. The better way is to follow paradigm used elsewhere which is keeping the two large, complex applications separate but have a Live Link integration. This would simply be a plugin in Cubase (or integrated if Cubase doesn't support plugins) that creates a port that Dorico can communicate over, typically using JSON. This way you can have tight integration and synchronization, but without the messiness of trying to mash these two applications together. Additionally it doesn't obviate the simple notation for those who want it, and it also preserves revenue streams (e.g. no cannibalization) because people still have to buy the two applications for it to work. 

Finally, it's not a terrifically difficult feature to add and could be done in one release cycle by a single engineer on both sides. I expect Steinberg will use this approach.


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## C-Wave (Sep 15, 2020)

danbo said:


> For those talking about replacing the Cubase notation that actually isn't the best approach. The better way is to follow paradigm used elsewhere which is keeping the two large, complex applications separate but have a Live Link integration. This would simply be a plugin in Cubase (or integrated if Cubase doesn't support plugins) that creates a port that Dorico can communicate over, typically using JSON. This way you can have tight integration and synchronization, but without the messiness of trying to mash these two applications together. Additionally it doesn't obviate the simple notation for those who want it, and it also preserves revenue streams (e.g. no cannibalization) because people still have to buy the two applications for it to work.
> 
> Finally, it's not a terrifically difficult feature to add and could be done in one release cycle by a single engineer on both sides. I expect Steinberg will use this approach.


They already implemented this with ARA technology. I believe they are going for the same in 11.0


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## danbo (Sep 15, 2020)

C-Wave said:


> They already implemented this with ARA technology. I believe they are going for the same in 11.0



Thanks, I wasn't familiar with ARA (Logic not Cubase user at the moment). However It doesn't look like ARA is the right technology here as it's really mean for audio unit plugins, not application plugins. The port/JSON I describe is heavily used in the 3D art industry which I also work in, for transfer of, for example, mesh and texture data between one application and another. Because the workflow over there is such that you often model in one program, texture in another and render in a third, each is purpose focused on its specialty. So the port/JSON interface hands off the data set from one to another as you work on an asset, which are so large typically they're stored on disk and just pointed to by the JSON. 

In this case I think score musical data is much smaller than 3D models so could be directly sent over the port. But the idea would be that as you work on the score in Dorico, you hit a key to push the latest over to the Cubase project to update it, and then you can go in and tweak the mix in that application.


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## C-Wave (Sep 15, 2020)

danbo said:


> Thanks, I wasn't familiar with ARA (Logic not Cubase user at the moment). However It doesn't look like ARA is the right technology here as it's really mean for audio unit plugins, not application plugins. The port/JSON I describe is heavily used in the 3D art industry which I also work in, for transfer of, for example, mesh and texture data between one application and another. Because the workflow over there is such that you often model in one program, texture in another and render in a third, each is purpose focused on its specialty. So the port/JSON interface hands off the data set from one to another as you work on an asset, which are so large typically they're stored on disk and just pointed to by the JSON.
> 
> In this case I think score musical data is much smaller than 3D models so could be directly sent over the port. But the idea would be that as you work on the score in Dorico, you hit a key to push the latest over to the Cubase project to update it, and then you can go in and tweak the mix in that application.


Thanks for the update. I didn’t know.. btw, your love for the 3d industry is apprent.. Unreal developer/tech artist/game musician wanna be here


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