# The last jedi - no spoilers



## TheNorseman (Dec 15, 2017)

Just came home from watching this movie. I must say, I think the reason that I enjoyed this movie so much is because I was expecting it to not live up. Everyone that went and saw it last night told me about how disappointed they were with it. What did you guys think?


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## ColonelMarquand (Dec 15, 2017)

I'd like to go and see it, but I don't know anyone that sells morphine in great quantities.


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## TheNorseman (Dec 15, 2017)

It's probably one of my favorite movie series ever. And I rarely enjoy movies.


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## resound (Dec 15, 2017)

I don't see how anyone could be disappointed with it unless they already decided they were going to be disappointed with it before they even saw it. I loved it. There were a lot of funny moments, the score was great, and it didn't take itself too seriously. It was kind of long, but it didn't feel too long because it kept me entertained.


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## TheNorseman (Dec 15, 2017)

I think the problem is a lot of these people get themselves so worked up with excitement. Then they're disappointed that their minds were not totally blown. I can see how some things could be disappointing, can't get into without giving away spoilers, but overall I very much enjoyed it. First time I have seen a movie in the theaters since the last Bond was released, that was a long time ago.


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## merlinhimself (Dec 15, 2017)

Just saw it last night. what I loved most about it was that it was the first time star wars has felt like classic star wars since the originals. Force Awakens was great and as much as some dislike the prequels, I enjoyed them too, but this one really hit home with the Star Wars feel. Perfect, I give it a solid 5/7.


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## nbd (Dec 16, 2017)

For one who has devoured the original trilogy as a child, the basic problem is that we hope to relive the same magic with the new movies, but to be honest, it's not going to happen. And that's the part of the disappointment when you actually realise that. Also, the greatest story of ever told was already presented in the original trilogy, so it's kind of hard to beat that (I kind of feel sorry for the screen writers). And I miss Han.. One of those characters (and actor!) who kept the story alive in so many levels. For some reason this new episode did not have the same emotional effect on me that TFA had, and I was expecting to be emotionally moved and for some reason those expectations were not met. I guess TFA managed to do that just because I had been waiting for a new trilogy since I saw episode VI so when the main title was presented on the screen, I was already in tears, so it was kind of easy to get emotionally moved after that. And the story telling was flowing nicely through the whole movie, and seeing all the oldies... So I guess the new episode was already in position that could not live up to all the expectations.

I still need to see that again.


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## TheNorseman (Dec 16, 2017)

I am of the minority, where I actually loved the prequels. The saber duels were incredible. And I love how there was so much unexplained in the original trilogy, I thought it all unfolded brilliantly in the prequels.


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## chillbot (Dec 16, 2017)

merlinhimself said:


> Perfect, I give it a solid 5/7


5 out of 7 is not "perfect".

Also, who rates on a 7-star scale?

(Genuinely curious about the reasoning behind this.)


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## TheNorseman (Dec 16, 2017)

chillbot said:


> 5 out of 7 is not "perfect".
> 
> Also, who rates on a 7-star scale?
> 
> (Genuinely curious about the reasoning behind this.)



Lol, I was wondering the same thing


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## chillbot (Dec 16, 2017)

TheNorseman said:


> Lol, I was wondering the same thing


Nevermind I just had it explained to me.


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## chillbot (Dec 16, 2017)

I'm slow to internets stuff.


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## TheNorseman (Dec 16, 2017)

Dude I'm laughing so hard right now


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## merlinhimself (Dec 16, 2017)

chillbot said:


> 5 out of 7 is not "perfect".
> 
> Also, who rates on a 7-star scale?
> 
> (Genuinely curious about the reasoning behind this.)


lol its a joke, http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/57


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## merlinhimself (Dec 16, 2017)

chillbot said:


> I'm slow to internets stuff.


i didnt see this, yeah thats it lol


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## NoamL (Dec 18, 2017)

I am off to see it this afternoon, will report back spoiler-free.

About TFA's score - it was an interesting and fresh direction. I went to the theater pumped up to hear more of JW's amazing kaleidoscopic, contrapuntal, complex writing from the prequels and was a bit disappointed initially. But the score grew on me and I think Rey & Kylo Ren's themes are great.

As for TFA the movie, it was a hyper safe rehash of iconic SW imagery and plots. The "First Order" and the "Resistance" are garbage, everyone knows it's just rebels and empire again. The movie made practically no attempt to explain how we got back to that status quo despite everything that happened at the end of ROTJ. Or what Luke is doing off on some island. I expect the second movie will try to explain more how we got here and what the new stakes are and why we should care. The plus side of TFA is that it introduces 3 new characters who are interesting and charismatic and you wanna root for them. So seeing more of their adventures should be fun.


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## JonSolo (Dec 18, 2017)

Well it definitely felt like a Disney movie. And I think George Lucas would love it. I can't say that I did.

The most brilliant parts of the original series were when other people got involved...from the editing which told a slightly different story, to the pacing, to character direction (yes all of this was done by others). But George almost fully took over the prequels. I do not view them as bad. There were some really epic moments in each of them. My favorite version of the prequels is online as a single movie edited down to about two total hours total (for all three movies).

I thought The Force Awakens was really good. It introduced us to a changed Star Wars world and did so in the most inviting way. It felt inspired, though familiar. Yes it was like Empire verses Rebellion all over again, but I never thought the destruction of a single implement of war would decimate an entire Galactic Empire (Return of the Jedi).

Rogue One was so good I rate it second only to Empire Strikes Back in the whole group of movies, because in my opinion it made A New Hope (Star Wars) a better movie.

This movie has some really good moments. It has several iconic scenes. But I hope a fan edits this movie down to the best hour and a half or so and cuts the Disney-isms, Disney-quips, and Disney-correctness out of it...because the only real plot to the movie is the sub-plot, which I did love.


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## TheNorseman (Dec 18, 2017)

NoamL said:


> I am off to see it this afternoon, will report back spoiler-free.



We can always start a new thread with spoilers.



JonSolo said:


> My favorite version of the prequels is online as a single movie edited down to about two total hours total (for all three movies).
> 
> This movie has some really good moments. It has several iconic scenes. But I hope a fan edits this movie down to the best hour and a half or so and cuts the Disney-isms, Disney-quips, and Disney-correctness out of it...because the only real plot to the movie is the sub-plot, which I did love.



I didn't know that there is an edited version on the prequals. That's actually much better than having to spend 8 hours having to catch up on the old movies.


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## TheNorseman (Dec 18, 2017)

I just tried to find the edited version of the prequals. it was called "Turn to the Force 3.1" it has been taken down unfortunately.


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## camerhil (Dec 18, 2017)

There was a lot that I loved in The Last Jedi. Rian Johnson really knows his way around an action scene: they were fluid, kinetic, easy to follow and visually beautiful. I appreciated the effort to make every loss felt: you were always aware of the good guys' plight, and my heart broke whenever a character died, even the non-speaking extras. That's hard to pull off in such a frenetic story.

I also adore the cast. Ren, Rey, Finn and Poe are bursting with charisma. The scenes between Ren and Rey were especially great. Also who can't love the porgs. They're hilarious. I left the movie wanting more of all of them. And Luke was a joy: he really owns the grizzled old guy look.

However, the meandering plot seriously spoiled the film for me. The middle section had several wholly unnecessary subplots that achieved nothing (Canto Bight, I'm looking at you), and the characters' motivations were sometimes so implausible that it yanked me right out of the film. I'm thinking mainly of the plot involving Laura Dern's admiral; no spoilers, but it had me thinking "WTF? No person in her situation would ever, EVER act that way".

Some of the bloat is simply due to too many characters. If I had written the film, I'd have killed off a bunch more of them so that we can focus on the characters who really matter. I would also avoid splitting the story into more than two concurrent threads. One reason why A New Hope is so great is because all the characters are actually together, interacting with each other, instead of scattered on half a dozen plots that don't go anywhere.

So, on the whole I liked it, but I was frustrated at the careless plotting. Still, I was entertained for every minute of its 160-minute run time.


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## TheNorseman (Dec 18, 2017)

camerhil said:


> However, the meandering plot seriously spoiled the film for me. The middle section had several wholly unnecessary subplots that achieved nothing (Canto Bight, I'm looking at you), and the characters' motivations were sometimes so implausible that it yanked me right out of the film. I'm thinking mainly of the plot involving Laura Dern's admiral; no spoilers, but it had me thinking "WTF? No person in her situation would ever, EVER act that way".
> 
> Some of the bloat is simply due to too many characters. If I had written the film, I'd have killed off a bunch more of them so that we can focus on the characters who really matter. I would also avoid splitting the story into more than two concurrent threads. One reason why A New Hope is so great is because all the characters are actually together, interacting with each other, instead of scattered on half a dozen plots that don't go anywhere.
> 
> So, on the whole I liked it, but I was frustrated at the careless plotting. Still, I was entertained for every minute of its 160-minute run time.



You're 100%, the subplots we're Disneyish and unnecessary, and some of the important characters from the last film brought absolutely nothing to the table on this film. Those were my main complaints. Overall I thought the story was unpredictable and very fascinating.


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## NoamL (Dec 18, 2017)

I have such conflicted feelings about this movie! (ironic)

*Still no spoilers below*

Musically it is one of the best Star Wars scores that John Williams has EVER written. "The Last Jedi" is an action movie & it's about 30 minutes too long. So the music has some heavy lifting to do to keep the audience excited. Besides the action sequences, TLJ is also all about people acting without talking. Close up shots, characters riven with indecision and all that. The music brings the thoughts and feelings of the characters to life with such expertise, care and nuance. John also gave us what I think is one of his most beautiful themes ever, the "Rebellion Reborn" theme that is carefully built up through the movie, almost reminiscent of the way he scored E.T. The Extra-Terrestrial. It is valedictory, hopeful, simple but so memorable - a classic JW theme. It reminds me a bit of his theme for 2011's Tintin. Kylo Ren's theme and Rey's theme both figure heavily in the score as well, together with the Resistance march.

The last movie showed that Daisy Ridley, Adam Driver, and John Boyega can really pilot a movie with just their acting talent. Here, all three show off again, while joined by Mark Hamill and Kelly Marie Tran also doing well.

The cinematography is _easily_ the best Star Wars has ever had. The way Rian Johnson conceives action scenes is so fluid and creative. He manages to inject some "Wow, never seen that before" magic back into the fights and battles that definitely wasn't there in TFA or Rogue 1, at least for me. While his action directing will be lauded by every reviewer, he brought a similar magic to the character driven sequences and a little more... mystical/psychological? film making. There is one sequence in this film that made me sad he never got to direct a Potter movie.

When you put the acting, directing and music together and just leave them alone you get some of the most thrilling sequences ever in a Star Wars movie.

Where it all falls apart of course is the larger story and the script.

The problem with these sequel movies has always been that ROTJ _ended the saga_. The Empire falls, Vader is redeemed, Luke is a Jedi, Leia marries Han, freedom is restored in the Galaxy; the story is over. The prequel movies for all their faults understood that and went back in time, trying to create a tragic and complex story of how Anakin and the Republic fell at the same time, that would deepen the impact of what we learn in ROTJ. The prequels fail as movies but at least Lucas had a plan for movies that contextualized, as opposed to undoing, the originals.

The sequel movies just tell us that the story is now back to its original stakes, and... that's it. In the first movie there is no real explanation for how and why we got back to an Empire vs Rebels situation, who or what Snoke is, what are the Knights of Ren, why is a galaxy-spanning Republic not crushing the First Order with all its might, how come the First Order (which should be AT BEST a scrappy terrorist organization) has the capability to build a Death Star and field legions of Stormtroopers, etc. The second movie is almost as unsatisfactory. There is some more exposition, but it's focused on the "character story" between Luke, Rey, and Kylo. As a result (together with the quality acting and directing), their side of the movie goes very well. When the movie changes gears to the larger situation & what both sides are trying to achieve in the war, it's all just trash nonsense that is at this point beyond the point of saving. You just have to accept it and turn off your brain. You can basically imagine Mickey Mouse sitting in the seat behind you at the theater with a blaster pointed at your back, falsetto-growling that _"We paid $4 billion for these #$%!ing Stormtrooper costumes and Star Destroyers and the words The Outer Rim (tm), so we're doing Empire vs Rebels. Start enjoying it."_

In addition to the problem of story stakes, there are some marvelously ill-conceived story beats in this script. Just some "why would anyone _*ever*_ think that would be a cool moment" scenes. The script ranges from ok to bad; some of the hokiest dialogue is given to Carrie Fisher and to Oscar Isaac in the "Empire vs Rebels" side of the movie. Sadly, both Carrie's and Oscar's decent performances are buried under the schlock story beats and bad dialogue they're given. As with the last movie's turn by Harrison Ford, in TLJ both Carrie Fisher and Mark Hamill are sometimes awkwardly caught between playing the old versions of their characters, and these new Disney versions that have whatever motivations and roles are needed to make the new movies work.

The screenplay is obsessed with yanking the rug out from your feet, probably 9 or 10 times in the course of the film; the script even lampshades this when one character says "This isn't going to go how you think." The subversions are very hit and miss - some are genuinely witty and funny, while two or three others that are played for drama fall horribly flat.

TFA was criticized by practically everyone for being a straight up redo of ANH. In this film, we see what happens when Disney doesn't have the solid skeleton of ANH to work with. The dramatic structure is a mess; the entire last act of the movie comes after what should truly be considered the story's climax and resolution, but the movie continues for AT LEAST half an hour longer, because the action quota hasn't been filled. In one sequence with two characters fighting obvious stuntmen, I was actually bored - and this came right after some of the most thrilling and interesting acting and directing in the entire movie. Why did there need to be an action scene? Because lightsabers. It heavily recalls the prequels where there were endless droids for Anakin & Obi-Wan to carve up just so that every act of the movie would have lightsabers in it.

In short it succeeds as a movie (better than TFA); it falls about as flat as TFA when it comes to being a _sequel_ to the Star Wars story; and while TFA was safe and inoffensive throughout, TLJ contains some prequel-worthy groaners of scenes. So it's very hard to give it an overall score. I wish they would just toss all this Rebels vs Empire stuff in the dumpster and make the last movie focus entirely on the other side of the story; but what are the odds of that happening...


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## JonSolo (Dec 18, 2017)

NoamL,

I think you nailed it for the most part. Sequel. That is the downfall. In part, I loved the concept of The Force Awakens. I think it was a movie done right. But, in trying to be a sequel, it gets murdered.

For The Last Jedi, I have to slightly disagree. It succeeds as a movie, but FAILS as a potential Star Wars movie. 

I cannot figure out how Disney is the same entity that produced Rogue One...which is just brilliant.

Musically, I can fault almost NONE of the SW movies. Even Rogue One was impressive to me...but my ears may be simpler than you guys.


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## camerhil (Dec 18, 2017)

I can't get enough of the Last Jedi score. It's such a privilege that we are still being treated to career best soundtracks by John Williams, who is now 85 years old and still going strong. Listening to the magical score on its own makes me more willing to forgive the film its many flaws. 

NoamL, I think you nailed it with your criticism of the latest trilogy as stories that shouldn't have been told. I do think it was still possible to make taut, coherent films despite their redundancy, which makes it doubly frustrating that Last Jedi came so close and then flunked because of lazy writing. So much talent and passion went into this film; it's clearly light years removed from the dead-eyed sleepwalking that seemed to affect everyone involved in the prequels. The filmmakers _cared _about this film. And yet they couldn't write a narrative that made sense, or edit out the needless plot diversions, or try to keep the characterizations consistent. 

It must be very hard for an auteur to make their mark in a film franchise that's clearly dominated by the risk-averse purse holders, and I applaud Johnson for doing a much better job than Abrams. But god, what I wouldn't give for a script rewrite and a merciless editor.


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## NoamL (Dec 18, 2017)

Agreed with your points Tim & Jon.

Also I read online this evening that there is a "backlash" against the movie for not being "Star Warsy enough" which is just the saddest thing ever. Succeed or fail, the movie should be applauded for the risks it took, above all for being so introspective and character driven. It can't be easy to create something like that inside the obvious-as-hell mandated constraints of X number of stormtroopers, Y number of new toyetic alien creatures, and Z references to The Outer Rim that will no doubt tie into the next between-the-films videogame. Ironically the movie, just like TFA, is at its _worst_ when it's in obvious-ANH-ripoff mode, even when the ticking clock isn't a Death Star.

The only thing I can see someone picking a bone with is that JJ Abrams set up a couple things as typically Abrams-y myyyyyyyyysteries and Rian’s film goes "Forget about all that, who cares." In particular, two very mysterious things from TFA are dispatched with almost dismissive speed. I can see people's disappointment with that. On the other hand, I see it as the director understanding that the best attributes of these new movies are not all the plot fluff, but the three acting talents at the center of both films.


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## Zhao Shen (Dec 18, 2017)

NoamL said:


> Agreed with your points Tim & Jon.
> 
> Also I read online this evening that there is a "backlash" against the movie for not being "Star Warsy enough"



To be fair, disliking it because it's not "Star Warsy enough" is a perfectly valid angle. This is a Star Wars movie. If people didn't want to see a Star Wars movie, they'd see something else. If they show up at the midnight premiere for TLJ, they probably expect a Star Wars movie.

Personally, I thought the film was an absolute triumph on a technical level. Gorgeous stuff. That being said, despite there being a lot of very cool moments, the plot itself was honestly pretty weak, and my immersion was constantly broken by out-of-place Marvel movie humor and cheesy dialogue.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 19, 2017)

I thought it was the best movie I've never seen.


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## chillbot (Dec 19, 2017)

@NoamL that's a really fantastic analysis... I'm even more amazed you could write that many words spoiler-free.

If anyone wants to chat about it WITH SPOILERS we have a private channel in the VI-C chat room for it. Message or ping me when you're there I will add you to the channel.


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## MarcelM (Dec 19, 2017)

saw this today. score was ofcourse very nice, but the movie was just ok i think. i expected a bit more after the trailers, but its really hard to beat the old star wars movies. ofcourse i will watch all other upcoming star wars movies, but star wars isnt really star wars anymore - its different, but ok.


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## NoamL (Dec 20, 2017)

Having had a few days to turn it over in my head... The more I think about it the more I strongly dislike the Disney Trilogy, and love this movie for what it does inside that trilogy.

Whereas the Internet's overall reaction has been the opposite. They liked Force Awakens and they loooove Rogue One, but TLJ is earning a lot of hate, apparently for not being "TFA Part 2."

I think many people who dislike TLJ are coming to terms with how awful the "First Order vs Resistance" storyline is. It's certainly shallow and stupid in a more _obvious _way than in TFA. In thinking about the movie, again without spoilers, I realized that you could erase entire characters and scenes without changing the plot one bit. That's pretty dumb. And I guess it revises downward my opinion of that side of the film.

But the truth is, nitpicking aside, these new movies never have & never will set up any stakes that are worth unwinding the conclusion of Luke's story in Episode 6. That is true of both movies in the Disney Trilogy so far. I didn't go into this movie at all excited to see more of the First Order or the Resistance, and I'd be baffled if anyone did.

It's sadly transparent where this "First Order vs Resistance" nonsense comes from. It comes from outside of any storytelling rationale, but rather from Disney paying an insane $4,000,000,000 for Star Wars. The right to tell a new story isn't worth billions. The right to reuse all the iconic "stuff" from the last movies _may_ be worth that (if monetized across movies, theme parks, tv shows, bath mats...). And so we get movies filled with the old "stuff" and centering around the same Space Nazis vs Plucky Rebels conflict, because following this strategy is the only way for Disney to recoup.

So the way I see it this new trilogy is a disappointing and stale mess; with those expectations set, TLJ is a surprisingly fun and creative movie. It's the best _version_ of the disappointing mess that we are likely to get. In particular it focuses on Adam Driver who is the best thing about these movies, and Daisy Ridley who is probably the 2nd best thing. And it puts these two very worthy actors in a story where I was genuinely interested and uncertain about what their characters would decide to do.


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## JonSolo (Dec 20, 2017)

You could relegate it down to a bad First Order vs Resistance storyline.

Still, given that we HAD to accept that story moving forward, there are no less than 5 or 6 scenes that I felt SHOULD have taken a different turn...not to fit my idea of a good story, but to fit anyone's idea of a good story. We do need a spoilers thread so I can go into details.

Also there are at least 4-5 threads, or sub-plot aspects, or plot devices if you will, that could have been left out completely and the story, with a few changes would be rock solid.

I have seen a dozen people want to compare this to Empire. It might compare to Return of the Jedi in part, but that is as close as it gets. 

It is a a very vast and different story. And it does not disappoint because of not being TFA Part 2. It disappoints because of a dozen opportunities missed. They were there, and ZERO execution.

And I am a fanboi. So it takes a LOT for me to berate this. Ha ha ha.


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## jhughes (Dec 20, 2017)

I thought it was alright. About 30 mins could have been left out. Some of the scenes were a bit much, some humor attempts I felt took away rather than added anything. 
I overall enjoyed TFA more as a movie and as far as scores go. I liked it better than Rogue One though.


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## lucianogiacomozzi (Dec 21, 2017)

I really enjoyed it as a lifelong Star Wars fan. I thought there was too much humour for sure, some of the scenes were weak but they were still not that bad. There's a fantastic scene in the throne room when the visuals, the sounds and the music really hit the mark and bring the drama, marvellous. I thoroughly enjoyed Luke's character and even Kylo Ren, I feel he has grown as a character, the conflict is starting to be resolved, yet there's a nagging doubt. Nothing is truly black and white and I felt it was a nice twist on the age-old motif of Star Wars and light/dark. 

Is it my favourite Star Wars film? No. Is it up there in my top 5? Yes, I would say it is. The First Order? The Resistance? History repeats itself every day in this world, nothing we are going through on Earth is new, it's all one massive cycle. I felt personally it was different enough, I liked the unpredictable nature too. It even had a good message on my least favourite arc about the ethics of horse racing. 

I am happy with what Rian Johnson produced, I'm not bothered by anything enough to even justify writing about it, because at the end of the day, it's a Star Wars film, I love Star Wars, I loved the film. I didn't think it was perfect but will I watch it again? Definitely, so I'm not complaining.


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## Consona (Dec 21, 2017)

To me, this was probably the worst SW movie to this date and it was not even a good sci-fi action movie.

The script was a total mess, there was such a lack of coherence, structure, inner logic, arc; just a bad story building. No sense of true drama, no substantive core, purposeless scenes, anticlimactic nature of some scenes and the movie, larger scale continuity problems, awful humor, cringy dialogues where the self-referencing rehash became a borderline self-parody starwarsy twaddle, totally butchered or wasted characters, abysmal character writing (Luke, Snoke, Phasma, Ackbar, Rey,...), subversion that did not work due to the bad script. And this was supposed to be the TESB part of the series.

Sorry to say, but it was just horrible.


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## ColonelMarquand (Dec 21, 2017)

Consona said:


> The script was a total mess.



What did you think of the script to the original 1977 film?


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## Consona (Dec 21, 2017)

ColonelMarquand said:


> What did you think of the script to the original 1977 film?


I think this video answers it better than I could.



Seems like the original script of the original film was a mess too, but they managed to make a good movie out of it.

A movie that actually tells a great coherent, dramatic and engaging space fairytale story, at least for the 12 years old myself, you know.


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## Lode_Runner (Dec 22, 2017)

Consona said:


> I think this video answers it better than I could.


Great video, thanks Consona. I think the way it's presented (as if though the movie was going to bomb and was only saved by drastic measures in the editing room) is a bit misleading - movies are always drafts before the editing process. Still it's very interesting to see the editing decisions that were made none-the-less and how they improved the movie.

I'm particularly excited to learn about the fan restored original versions. I hated the changes Lucas made, so I'll have to get hold of the 'despecialised' editions.



JonSolo said:


> My favorite version of the prequels is online as a single movie edited down to about two total hours total (for all three movies).



That might actually be a good movie if it's done right. I'll have to get hold of that one as well .
I hope they do something similar for the Hobbit series - that would make a good movie. 

I'm not hopeful that the Last Jedi will live up to my expectations. Half the problem is that I'm an adult now, not a kid anymore, and I notice a whole lot of things I'm critical of that I wouldn't have noticed or cared about when I was five. Initially I liked the Force Awakens - largely because J J Abrams seemed to respect the aesthetic of the original series in a way that George Lucas didn't with the prequels. But overtime things started to bug me about the movie such as:

1) The Galactic Empire, although reduced to a Non-State Neo-Facist organisation, somehow has the resources to build a Death Star 10 times larger than the Empire could.
2) Darth Emo. Darth Vader was menacing because he kept his helmet on.
3) Rey's abilities with the force despite no training - Luke took 3 movies to gain the skills she just has (apparently that's explained in the new movie, hopefully it doesn't involve Rey having a higher quantity of Midi-Chlorians).
4) Somewhere between Return of the Jedi and the Force Awakens, Princess Leia smoked a lot of cigarettes and drank a lot of whiskey.
5) This character, I hated this character: 






I was much more forgiving of Rogue One. My only gripe with that film was the non-characters who became part of the group for no reason (eg the blind monk and his companion) - that storyline needed fleshing out badly (I felt the same way about the Scottish and Moroccan characters in the new Wonder Woman, companions who were just there, charicatures without any real character development).


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## MarcusD (Dec 29, 2017)

I'm also one with mixed feelings on the film. It was really good on the whole, but without giving anything away, there was some things that could have been done a lot better or didn't need to actually be in the film. The flow of the plot was a bit cumbersome and some of it felt underdeveloped which lead to short anti-climatic filler scenes or super-cheese moments. It wasn't as smooth a watch as as The Force Awakens. I could watch that film over and over (despite it being a nostalgia fest), where as The Last Jedi, I'll probably only watch a few times. However, the action scenes were real satisfying and there's plenty of them!


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## Rasmus Hartvig (Dec 29, 2017)

camerhil said:


> The middle section had several wholly unnecessary subplots that achieved nothing (Canto Bight, I'm looking at you) ...



Except that one super important thing: Planting the seed for what we see in the last scene, which is pivotal to the continuation of the story.


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