# Chris Hein Ensemble Strings, Thoughts On The Legato?



## Thorgod10 (Apr 16, 2018)

Below, is a link to a simple shootout between two completely dry Vsts.
First is CHES, followed by LASS, playing a mere G scale and arpeggio using the same exact midi.


While I surely see the applicative power of CHES, I do sort of wonder how one can achieve a more realistic, smoother legato transition that doesn't rely on leaps, because something about this is.......quite off. 
(EDIT: See Chris Hein's first post on how to assure you're getting the fullest sound from your CHES VST) 


As the demos show, it is indeed possible to get great results out of the legato
script, but as far as I see, saying that such results could derive from an out of box experience is stretching it.....quite a bit.


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## Thorgod10 (Apr 16, 2018)

Jdiggity1 said:


> I'd advise you take a few minutes to dig around and learn the library.
> There is a comprehensive legato settings section allowing detailed adjustments to the timing, portamento amount and response of the legato samples.
> "Out of the box" is just a marketing buzz-phrase that tricks us into thinking it's something useful. I prefer to get it 'out of the box', _then _have the flexibility to tweak it to my liking.



Actually, although I'm sure you'll get some thumbs up for stating the obvious,
I have tweaked both the true and artificial legato sections, only to find that you still get the
same quiet hiccup in the legato transitions. (You can even hear it in the demos btw.)

And by out of the box, I truly mean with no outside influence, because truth be told, with
some mixing/engineering tricks you can make any library do just about anything but sound like live musicians.

If there is a combination of settings which makes the rather noticeable bow change legato perform more like a slur
legato, then I'm certainly all ears.

(If I may add, the manually even advises against changing the default true legato settings if you are looking for the most natural legato sound....which is why I put in the soundcloud post )


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## Chris Hein (Apr 16, 2018)

I own and love LASS from the first day it came out.
Andrew's samples have way more room sound baked in.
The release is cut, so it sounds dry, but the room overlaps in the transition.

The sound in the example is *not* out of the box. Both convolutions are turned off.
You should at least activate the "Body" convolution to smear the legato transition with its room sound.

All examples in the details video are played straight out of the box.
Which means, both convolution engines are active and help a lot for the legato.

I don't think fiddling with the legato edits will help you much.
You could maybeincrease the volume of the true legato transition a bit if you like that more.

Here is a little example:
1 is "out of the box" with both convolutions turned on.
2 has just the "body" convolution on.
3 is completely dry
4 demonstrates different "Body" convolutions.


Chris Hein


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## Thorgod10 (Apr 17, 2018)

Chris Hein said:


> I own and love LASS from the first day it came out.
> Andrew's samples have way more room sound baked in.
> The release is cut, so it sounds dry, but the room overlaps in the transition.
> 
> ...




Edited the OP for accuracy.
And hmm, using a reverb/convo (a good one at that) seems to take the sound an LONG way, not that I have a problem fiddling with the verbs I currently use. 
Didn't think to mess around with the body options either , but nonetheless, it pretty much addresses one of the bigger problems I'm having with the legato 
..... and maybe solves it 

Very much appreciative for the informative response (And this library, of course)


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## Lassi Tani (Apr 17, 2018)

Thorgod10 said:


> Edited the OP for accuracy.
> And hmm, using a reverb/convo (a good one at that) seems to take the sound an LONG way, not that I have a problem fiddling with the verbs I currently use.
> Didn't think to mess around with the body options either , but nonetheless, it pretty much addresses one of the bigger problems I'm having with the legato
> ..... and maybe solves it
> ...



I agree maybe not out of the box, but that's what I love about CH libraries, that I always find new ways to make it sound better, when I go deeper to the settings. Not every library offer this. E.g. the body option is quite crucial to the sound.

Btw, for the shorts have you tried note heads option? That way you can control the shorts with velocity.


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## Thorgod10 (Apr 17, 2018)

sekkosiki said:


> I agree maybe not out of the box, but that's what I love about CH libraries, that I always find new ways to make it sound better, when I go deeper to the settings. Not every library offer this. E.g. the body option is quite crucial to the sound.
> 
> Btw, for the shorts have you tried note heads option? That way you can control the shorts with velocity.



That certainly helps, but on an unrelated note, do you think 
getting a more slur-style legato is possible on this library? 
For certain passages I'd love to hear a consistent flow between notes, and while 
the pauses in the true legato creates some authenticity, it'd be fantastic if I could replicate slur-legato as well.


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## Chris Hein (Apr 17, 2018)

Thorgod10 said:


> That certainly helps, but on an unrelated note, do you think
> getting a more slur-style legato is possible on this library?
> For certain passages I'd love to hear a consistent flow between notes, and while
> the pauses in the true legato creates some authenticity, it'd be fantastic if I could replicate slur-legato as well.


Hi Thorgod,

The short legato has no slur at all.
Its a fingered legato, which is actually a noise between the notes.
On higher intervals there is a subtle slur, but thats not a real slide into the note.

To hear a slur, a slide from one note to the other, you should use the "Long Legato" (Portamento)
Use the offset fader to adjust the length of the slur.
Setting offset to 0 performs a complete slide from one note to the other up to an octave.
Setting offset to a higher value shortens the slur until you get a subtle slur of a semitone or less.
Simply press the sustain pedal to activate the Long Legato.

But, your g-scale will not sound good if you hear a slur between each note.
A real string player tries to avoid a slur unless its a special effects to glide into a note.

However, with the artificial legato you can simulate a slur by increasing the values for "length" and "Tune" for Tune in- and out.

Chris Hein


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## Thorgod10 (Apr 17, 2018)

Chris Hein said:


> Hi Thorgod,
> 
> The short legato has no slur at all.
> Its a fingered legato, which is actually a noise between the notes.
> ...



As a violin player of 10+ years, I refer to a slur in the orchestral sense, multiple notes
being played without rebow.

I think a be better way i could ask is if its possible to minimalize the transition caused by the legato, which
in turn could make realistic (fast) runs possible and perhaps passages with a far more subtle, absent transition.

Reading over your whole post, I think the later advice will help with this, will try it ASAP.
Thank you


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## Chris Hein (Apr 17, 2018)

Thorgod10 said:


> As a violin player of 10+ years, I refer to a slur in the orchestral sense, multiple notes
> being played without rebow.


Oh, you play violin? Cool.
Right, re-bow is again a different story.
What I recorded is the noise you hear between two notes while the player places his finger on a different position of a string, holding the sound without a bow change.
(I tried to avoid words like slur, smear, etc.) 
This is actually a noise, not much movement.

For the Long legato, I recorded a complete slur from one note to the other.
With the option to adjust the tempo and the length of the slur until you get a subtle slur into the note.



Thorgod10 said:


> I think a better way to ask is if its possible to minimalize the transition caused by the legato, which
> in turn could make realistic (fast) runs possible and perhaps passages with a far more subtle transition.
> 
> Reading over your whole post, I think the later advice will help with this, will try it ASAP.
> Thank you


Sure, you can shorten the transition in the Legato edit page.
You can also separately turn the true-legato and artificial-legato on or off.
De-activating the true-legato saves about 180MB ram. 

I think the legato is pretty fast, agile and playable.
but of course its even faster without any transition.

And please, always keep the reverb on!
These instruments are recorded dry to be placed in any room you like.
Don't leave my strings naked. :-(

Chris Hein


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## Vardaro (Apr 17, 2018)

Chris Hein said:


> Oh, you play violin? Cool.
> Right, re-bow is again a different story.
> What I recorded is the noise you hear between two notes while the player places his finger on a different position of a string, holding the sound without a bow change.
> (I tried to avoid words like slur, smear, etc.)
> ...



Yes, If you are close to the violinist (or playing the d*mn*d thing yourself!) fingered notes under one bow stroke are quite noisy: the "pop" of the fingers, and the fraction of a second while the new string length gets going.

The back to back comparison in the first post has persuaded me to go for CHES!

And as I already have the solo strings, woods, brass, and Horns Compact, everything would fit into the same room IR's..


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## quantum7 (Apr 17, 2018)

Chris Hein said:


> Don't leave my strings naked. :-(




....unless that's what your personal fetish is.


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## Thorgod10 (Apr 17, 2018)

Vardaro said:


> Yes, If you are close to the violinist (or playing the d*mn*d thing yourself!) fingered notes under one bow stroke are quite noisy: the "pop" of the fingers, and the fraction of a second while the new string length gets going.
> 
> The back to back comparison in the first post has persuaded me to go for CHES!
> 
> And as I already have the solo strings, woods, brass, and Horns Compact, everything would fit into the same room IR's..


Def, this is one of the most intimate string vsts atm, if you like intense vibrato and heavy legato its a perfect match. I do prefer the legato of HS and LASS, but they also lack the intense, "live" sound this has. Also, Pretty sure some practice and midi magic could change my disposition on the legato


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## Parsifal666 (Apr 17, 2018)

The most inevitable thread is this.

Due to the massive saturation of legato topics here I've decided to use only longs for a whole day in protest. So there!


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## Thorgod10 (Apr 17, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> The most inevitable thread is this.
> 
> Due to the massive saturation of legato topics here I've decided to use only longs for a whole day in protest. So there!


_Looks at your sig._


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## constaneum (Apr 17, 2018)

quantum7 said:


> ....unless that's what your personal fetish is.



hahahah


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## NYC Composer (Apr 17, 2018)

I’m a g-string man myself, and I must say I look damn good in it.


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## quantum7 (Apr 17, 2018)

NYC Composer said:


> I’m a g-string man myself, and I must say I look damn good in it.



Be afraid......be VERY afraid!


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## Przemek K. (Apr 18, 2018)

Personally, I'm all for a nice connected legato without bumps. And since I'm a sucker for customization here are a few examples with CH Ensemble Strings (custom version).

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ch-str-ens-custom-legato-by-przemyslaw-kopczyk-mp3.12967/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ch-str-ens-custom-legato-2-by-przemyslaw-kopczyk-mp3.12968/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ch-str-ens-custom-legato-3-by-przemyslaw-kopczyk-mp3.12969/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## star.keys (Apr 18, 2018)

Przemek K. said:


> Personally, I'm all for a nice connected legato without bumps. And since I'm a sucker for customization here are a few examples with CH Ensemble Strings (custom version).
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ch-str-ens-custom-legato-by-przemyslaw-kopczyk-mp3.12967/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> ...



That legato sounds good. What exactly do you mean by custom.. Have you edited anything through Kontakt? Since I don't have the customisation skills, I wonder how difficult it is to make these improvements.


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## Thorgod10 (Apr 18, 2018)

Przemek K. said:


> Personally, I'm all for a nice connected legato without bumps. And since I'm a sucker for customization here are a few examples with CH Ensemble Strings (custom version).
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ch-str-ens-custom-legato-by-przemyslaw-kopczyk-mp3.12967/][/AUDIOPLUS]



I'm actually quite curious on how you achieved the first example.
Care to share?


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## constaneum (Apr 18, 2018)

same here too. i dont really know how to customise or edit much. just a dummy kontakt user. lol


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## Thorgod10 (Apr 18, 2018)

constaneum said:


> same here too. i dont really know how to customise or edit much. just a dummy kontakt user. lol


I was able to edit through kontakt and the actual vst, but my results were far messier. 
Messaged him hoping for some advice lol


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## Przemek K. (Apr 18, 2018)

star.keys said:


> That legato sounds good. What exactly do you mean by custom.. Have you edited anything through Kontakt? Since I don't have the customisation skills, I wonder how difficult it is to make these improvements.



To me personally the word custom means If I change standard settings so that the instrument behaves to my personal taste , play&feel (sometimes additionally under the hood). But on a broad scale, I'd say that even if you activate a built in feature (can be a eq, filter...) which for example is not activated in the default settings, you already made a custom instrument. 
I did change the legato settings directly in the UI and under the hood. I'm so glad Chris programmed his instruments that way, so that customization is made easier but most importantly directly accessible.




Thorgod10 said:


> I'm actually quite curious on how you achieved the first example.
> Care to share?



You know, that's the beauty of the CH Ensemble Strings. Chris did an amazing job providing us with all the features directly in the instruments UI. Even if one is not using them all of the time, just the knowledge that they are there gives peace of mind,at least for me . Besides, Chris already gave some good hints on how to change the legato behavior. The standard legato settings IMO are for broad use cases, something quite flexible so that you can use out of the box and go from there. I always start that way, and only if I stumble on a certain passage in my music where I want to have a different behavior I change settings. 
So, if you'd like to come closer to my example, here are some settings which work quite well for the articulation _*Short 1*_:

Volume: -1.3
Offset: 245 (standard setting) but you could try also 220
Fade In: 39
Fade Out: 209
Hold: 193
Delay: 40 (or 65)
Artificial legato is on, to smooth things a little bit out (standard settings). If you key-switch with these settings to lets say Sustain Expression Long then lower the legato volume setting to around -4.
You can assign a midi CC to this slider so you can change the legato transition volume over time if needed.
I hope that helps you guys.

But whats also important is to not overuse legato sometimes it's overrated. And as Chris mentioned, keep the reverb on and don't leave his strings naked


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## star.keys (Apr 19, 2018)

Przemek K. said:


> To me personally the word custom means If I change standard settings so that the instrument behaves to my personal taste , play&feel (sometimes additionally under the hood). But on a broad scale, I'd say that even if you activate a built in feature (can be a eq, filter...) which for example is not activated in the default settings, you already made a custom instrument.
> I did change the legato settings directly in the UI and under the hood. I'm so glad Chris programmed his instruments that way, so that customization is made easier but most importantly directly accessible.
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you Przemek for sharing this...


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## Ben E (Apr 20, 2018)

@Przemek K. 
Thank you for this info!


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## Batrawi (May 14, 2018)

The legatos in CH String instruments usually sound a bit strange to me in general. They always sound to me as if the note is being artificially bent rather than naturally transitioning to another note. I can't unhear this even if the legato is burried in both body and room reverbs. 
From my several readings though, I understood that this is actually intentional by CH aiming to give you more flexible performance. Fair point ...But to me personally I wouldn't care much about performance if the sound isn't natural (enough to my ears) in the first place.

So can anyone pls share an audio example of a side-by-side comparison between the "natural legato alone" vs the "artificial legato alone"?
I just want to get an idea about how different they are and if you can get a more natural sound (even if it's on the expense of performance)


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## Chris Hein (May 14, 2018)

Batrawi said:


> The legatos in CH String instruments usually sound a bit strange to me in general. They always sound to me as if the note is being artificially bent rather than naturally transitioning to another note. I can't unhear this even if the legato is burried in both body and room reverbs.
> From my several readings though, I understood that this is actually intentional by CH aiming to give you more flexible performance. Fair point ...But to me personally I wouldn't care much about performance if the sound isn't natural (enough to my ears) in the first place.
> 
> So can anyone pls share an audio example of a side-by-side comparison between the "natural legato alone" vs the "artificial legato alone"?
> I just want to get an idea about how different they are and if you can get a more natural sound (even if it's on the expense of performance)


You can edit volume blending and tonal bending separately.
If you set "tune" to a lower amount, the tuning has less bending.
"Lengths" lets you shorten the time of the bending.
This works also independent from the volume blending.

Chris Hein


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## Sid Francis (May 14, 2018)

Przemek K. said:


> To me personally the word custom means If I change standard settings so that the instrument behaves to my personal taste , play&feel (sometimes additionally under the hood). But on a broad scale, I'd say that even if you activate a built in feature (can be a eq, filter...) which for example is not activated in the default settings, you already made a custom instrument.
> I did change the legato settings directly in the UI and under the hood. I'm so glad Chris programmed his instruments that way, so that customization is made easier but most importantly directly accessible.
> 
> 
> ...




Also a big thanks from me, I will try these settings since the legato in example Nr. 1 is sounding really really good.

Edit: Just applied your settings to the Full Violas: WOW, thanks! very fluent and quick enough to play live trills with the sustain vibrato artic. Love it!


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## kavinsky (May 16, 2018)

Hello Chris

Can you elaborate on your decision to use only 8 samples per note on short articulations, especially spiccatos?
if I want to do a fast fff spicc pattern - I only have one fff sample per note(or 2 rrs and 4 layers), which is outrageously not enough

same goes for col legs - nobody in the world sampled more than 4 samples per note for some reason.

I view those as a percussive articulations - how would you do anything complex with just 1-2 samples per layer?

I do like the sound - love the dry approach - but why is it so limited on the shorts?
considering this one doesn't have mic positions I really hoped it would be much much more detailed.


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## Rene De Wael (May 25, 2018)

Hi Every body.
Have made some tests with CH Ensemble on a friend DAW ( Logic Pro X ).
Really really nice.
The only issue I'v encountered is about new Logic Articulation ID's.
Work fine, except when triggering portamento with sustain ( CC 64 ).
Say, first note is "Short 5" and the next (with portamento ) is "Dynamics's.Ex.Short".
Since CC 64 is a little before this second note, and the Art ID enclosed in this midi note ( the second one ), this make the CC64 not triggering .
The solution is to enter a real KS note. Old method to be honest since Logic Pro art ID is so useful .
Too bad.
Don't know if what I explain is very clear


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## timestudios (Sep 5, 2018)

star.keys said:


> That legato sounds good. What exactly do you mean by custom.. Have you edited anything through Kontakt? Since I don't have the customisation skills, I wonder how difficult it is to make these improvements.



Hi. I've just purchased CH Ensemble Strings. Your legato setting sounds great! Can I ask which instrument is playing in your examples please? Violins Small or large or Full Mix High? Thanks.


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## keepitsimple (Sep 5, 2018)

timestudios said:


> Hi. I've just purchased CH Ensemble Strings. Your legato setting sounds great! Can I ask which instrument is playing in your examples please? Violins Small or large or Full Mix High? Thanks.


He mentions that he's playing "short 1" (i'm guessing it's the full ensemble shorts) and that's what the settings he provided are for. If you want to use the longs, just lower the volume a bit as suggested. And i agree...great settings indeed.


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## timestudios (Sep 6, 2018)

keepitsimple said:


> He mentions that he's playing "short 1" (i'm guessing it's the full ensemble shorts) and that's what the settings he provided are for. If you want to use the longs, just lower the volume a bit as suggested. And i agree...great settings indeed.



Hi Keepitsimple. Thanks for the reply. I changed the legato settings to the suggested parameters and made some further tweaks to fit with my project. I’m very happy with the results! The OP mentions his settings are for Short 1 but he doesn’t specify which instrument is playing. I was just curious as the sound was lovely. I’m pleased to say my new settings seem to work well for all the instruments and not just the short 1 articulation. The option to fine tune the legato behaviour is a great feature of Chris Hein’s strings. It’s a fantastic value for money library as far as I can tell! I quite fancy a solo strings library to add definition. Back to the research! Saconni sounds great as does Berlin First Chairs (the spiccatos are amazing!) and of course Chris Hein solo strings is a strong contender. I’d much appreciate some recommendations if anyone could spare me some?? Many thanks.


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## Przemek K. (Sep 6, 2018)

timestudios said:


> Hi. I've just purchased CH Ensemble Strings. Your legato setting sounds great! Can I ask which instrument is playing in your examples please? Violins Small or large or Full Mix High? Thanks.



Thanks man. The instrument in my examples were the full mix high, but the settings are different than the one I posted here. The one I posted here, although specifically tailored for the short 1 articulation, can also be used for the long articulations as well but you have to lower the volume a little bit.


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## Chris Hein (Sep 7, 2018)

kavinsky said:


> Hello Chris
> 
> Can you elaborate on your decision to use only 8 samples per note on short articulations, especially spiccatos?
> if I want to do a fast fff spicc pattern - I only have one fff sample per note(or 2 rrs and 4 layers), which is outrageously not enough
> ...



Haha, I can accept a lot of complains about my Strings but not this. 
The full instruments of the Solo Strings have 12 short articulation with 8 dynamics each.
Thats a total of 96 short samples per note to choose from.
There is a round robin feature included, but not with unique samples,
which even triples this amount of different sounds per note to 288.
If thats not enough, try the repetition articulation with its 4 dynamics.

The difference in the 12 versions is the length.
Short 1 samples are ca. 1s. long, Short 12 is an ultra short spiccato.
So, if you play a line with mix of 1/8, 1/16 and 1/32 notes,
you not only find the best attack and dynamic, but also a natural ending of the for each note.

You'll probably never see a 2 dynamics with 8 rr concept in my libraries, because I personally hate round robin.
I want control over my track and the sequence to play what I have programmed.
I also want the full dynamic range of an instrument.
I force the players to play from the softest possible note to the highest scratchy dynamic,
even if these extrem samples are not 'nice' anymore.
In Spinal Tap words: This instrument goes to 11.

BTW, my upcoming low Brass instruments will have 16 dynamics for the shorts. 

Chris Hein


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## Parsifal666 (Sep 7, 2018)

Chris Hein said:


> Haha, I can accept a lot of complains about my Strings but not this.
> The full instruments of the Solo Strings have 12 short articulation with 8 dynamics each.
> Thats a total of 96 short samples per note to choose from.
> There is a round robin feature included, but not with unique samples,
> ...



BRASS TOO!!!!   

As far as the Ensemble Strings...a _gotta_ have for me.

Off topic, but if anyone is on the fence about the CH Woodwinds, don't be. They're terrific.


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## Chris Hein (Sep 11, 2018)

New demo for Chris Hein - Ensemble Strings from the awesome Ben Eshbach.


Chris Hein


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## Sid Francis (Sep 11, 2018)

Wow...just wow.

Would it be possible to get the midi file of this? It would help me a lot improving in string arrangement!


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## batonruse (Sep 11, 2018)

Sid Francis said:


> Wow...just wow.
> 
> Would it be possible to get the midi file of this? It would help me a lot improving in string arrangement!


I echo Sid's exclamation...Wow. As a recent owner of CH Ensemble Strings (already own and love all the solo strings + woods and brass) I too would dearly love to learn from studying the arrangement and hopefully do these libraries justice!


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## Chris Hein (Sep 11, 2018)

Haha, Wow was my reply to Ben too.
Actually he didn't write this as a demo for me.
He just used my Ensemble Strings for his production and sent me the link.
Which makes me feel honored even more. 

Chris Hein


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## artomatic (Sep 11, 2018)

Sid Francis said:


> Wow...just wow.
> 
> Would it be possible to get the midi file of this? It would help me a lot improving in string arrangement!




Indeed. I would also like to take a peek at what's under the hood. I wish developers can share midis of their demos like Alex did with CSS. It would be so enlightening and educational to those of us who want to take full advantage of excellent libraries such as this.


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## Chris Hein (Sep 11, 2018)

artomatic said:


> I wish developers can share midis of their demos like Alex did with CSS.


Ouch, this hurts!
There are some MIDI's on my website and even included in some of my products in the "Extras" folder.
As said, this is not a developers demo!

Chris Hein


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## artomatic (Sep 11, 2018)

Chris Hein said:


> Ouch, this hurts!
> There are some MIDI's on my website and even included in some of my products in the "Extras" folder.
> As said, this is not a developers demo!
> 
> Chris Hein



Yeah, sorry. I posted before I saw your response in which you clarified that the piece was from someone's production, using your ensemble. Nice to know you provide midi files, Chris! And yes, I own a few of your libs and love them!


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## Ben E (Sep 12, 2018)

@Sid Francis 
@batonruse 

Not the midi file, but the next best thing. Two Youtube videos showing the piano roll in Logic -- one with the whole arrangement, and one with just the Chris Hein Ensemble.


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## batonruse (Sep 12, 2018)

A huge thanks Ben. For some reason the second video is "unavailable" (maybe because I'm in the UK) but the first is great and really interesting. Love the piece!


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## Sid Francis (Sep 12, 2018)

Thanks so much from me too, Ben! And I can´t see the second video either...though it would have been the more important one. Can you have a look at it please?
But I already learned some good and important things from your tempo track! Never used that feature in my own compositions (except when playing on real instruments)


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## Ben E (Sep 13, 2018)

Oddly, I can see the video embed -- and if I click on the "Youtube" logo on the screen it takes me to see it on Youtube. But I cannot find the video on my Youtube page itself.

What happens if you copy/paste this Youtube link into your browser?

[edit] I see that I can't copy/paste a Youtube link without it creating another embed. Turns out I somehow made it a "private" video. It's public now. Someone please let me know if it's now viewable.


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## chrisr (Sep 13, 2018)

Ben E said:


> What happens if you copy/paste this Youtube link into your browser?




think it would be...



but yeah it just goes to a wacky page. Beautiful work with the piece though Ben!

**** oh hang on as soon as I posted that link it appreared for me  - I've fixed the internet!!!! ******


... or you fixed it... whatever...


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## batonruse (Sep 13, 2018)

chrisr said:


> think it would be...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Got it, great, thanks!


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## river angler (Dec 11, 2018)

Chris Hein said:


> New demo for Chris Hein - Ensemble Strings from the awesome Ben Eshbach.
> 
> 
> Chris Hein




Oh! my!... This is one of the most lovely pieces of music and needless to say by far the best demonstration of any artificial orchestra I have ever heard.

They say a photographer makes the best shot he can with whatever camera he happens to be carrying that day. The same could be said for Ben's astonishingly inspiring piece here but I would hazard a guess that to achieve the same level of expression from any other manufacturers orchestral library would be challenging.

However as much as it definitively shows the extreme power of Chris Heins orchestral libraries this is actually a moot point: I take my hat off to the composer because I sincerely hope he has had the opportunity to record this truly beautiful piece of music with a real orchestra as it is at the very least what it thoroughly deserves.

A true joy to come across this post.

Thanks so much for sharing:emoji_musical_score::emoji_dove::emoji_dizzy::emoji_evergreen_tree::emoji_full_moon_with_face::emoji_deciduous_tree::emoji_crescent_moon::emoji_musical_score:


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## robgb (Dec 11, 2018)

Thorgod10 said:


> saying that such results could derive from an out of box experience is stretching it.....quite a bit.


Why are so many people looking for the perfect out of the box experience? Sometimes it takes a little work, and that's how we LEARN.


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## Sid Francis (Dec 11, 2018)

Rob: take the Hein strings and try to get something even a tiny bit similar and you will see: it is not a "little work", this is really genius. I would also appreciate a little more out of the box gratification from the CH strings since everything I play is far from what I have in mind... Kudos to Ben Eshbach indeed. After listening to this piece for the first time I immediately loaded the strings and also immediately started to wonder "how the hell did he do this?" This would be the first "work in progress" that I would watch and try to follow each step to learn more about orchestration....a pity he cannot offer it.


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## river angler (Dec 11, 2018)

Sid Francis said:


> After listening to this piece for the first time I immediately loaded the strings and also immediately started to wonder "how the hell did he do this?"



...I would suggest that he did in fact pretty much play in most of what you hear in so much as the timing and general layout of this piece. Depending on how used he is to actually playing with the performance controls the depth of this initial "performance" layout, all be it section by section may well surprise you whereby not as much editing as you think may have actually taken place up to the final mix! It all depends how adept a composer is with his tools.


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## river angler (Dec 11, 2018)

...I say this because the very nature of the piece itself sounds like it was written spontaneously.


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## Ben E (Dec 11, 2018)

Thank you @river angler for such great compliments! But I’m afraid that @Sid Francis is right. Each note and keyswitch was manually placed in the piano roll with the mouse and then carefully edited, nudged and so on. I can’t play piano. And as you can see from the Youtube video a few posts above, the dynamics automation and the master tempo was drawn in with the mouse and manual automation curves. It’s just easier for me to do it that way than to record the modwheel information. I can’t speak from experience, but I think that the Hein libraries wouldn’t be easy to play in. There’s so much you can make them do but I think it requires a lot of midi programming to get the most from the samples.


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## river angler (Dec 11, 2018)

Ben E said:


> Thank you @river angler for such great compliments! But I’m afraid that @Sid Francis is right. Each note and keyswitch was manually placed in the piano roll with the mouse and then carefully edited, nudged and so on. I can’t play piano. And as you can see from the Youtube video a few posts above, the dynamics automation and the master tempo was drawn in with the mouse and manual automation curves. It’s just easier for me to do it that way than to record the modwheel information. I can’t speak from experience, but I think that the Hein libraries wouldn’t be easy to play in. There’s so much you can make them do but I think it requires a lot of midi programming to get the most from the samples.


...well it just goes to show just how far technology has moved on I suppose. Nevertheless it's a lovely composition from your mind!
It must have taken you an age to piano roll all of this! I am a keyboard player so
I can appreciate how long it would have taken me to score should I have been forbidden from playing the keys!


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## bryanmckay (Dec 11, 2018)

Ben E said:


> I can’t speak from experience, but I think that the Hein libraries wouldn’t be easy to play in. There’s so much you can make them do but I think it requires a lot of midi programming to get the most from the samples.



Would you mind sharing how many different articulations you ended up using for these strings? It looks like the midi notes at the very bottom of the piano roll are the keyswitches, is that correct?


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## Ben E (Dec 11, 2018)

bryanmckay said:


> Would you mind sharing how many different articulations you ended up using for these strings? It looks like the midi notes at the very bottom of the piano roll are the keyswitches, is that correct?



@bryanmckay It looks like 8 or 9 articulations on the violins. I didn't count the rest. Instead I made this video that shows the Kontakt instruments working while just the strings are playing. I didn't include the 2nd violins because they didn't fit in the screen and they're pretty much like the 1st violins anyway. I hope this helps.


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## Kony (Dec 11, 2018)

river angler said:


> Oh! my!... This is one of the most lovely pieces of music and needless to say by far the best demonstration of any artificial orchestra I have ever heard.


Have to agree - @Ben E 's compositions have the most convincing and realistic use of VIs I've heard. It also helps that his compositions are excellent. Thanks for sharing Ben!


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## bryanmckay (Dec 11, 2018)

@Ben E  This is really amazing – thanks for sharing! I'll have to give this a much closer look, but seeing (and hearing!) you coax those sounds out of these patches has really inspired me to take a serious deep dive into CHES, which I sort of purchased on a whim after restraining myself from splurging on SCS during the Black Friday sales. This track in general really does a wonderful job of highlighting how lovely the lower end of the dynamic range sounds, too.


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## dflood (Dec 11, 2018)

Ben E said:


> I can’t play piano.


Ben, I am just blown away by how well you don't play piano!


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## Casiquire (Dec 11, 2018)

dflood said:


> Ben, I am just blown away by how well you don't play piano!


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## Ben E (Dec 11, 2018)

dflood said:


> Ben, I am just blown away by how well you don't play piano!


That's hilarious! Thanks!


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## Sid Francis (Dec 11, 2018)

Wow..I didn´t know that video exists, thanks! It already shows a lot. You rarely go over the first 10-15% of dynamics, the "dynamic expression" articulation seems to do the rest. I am used to move in about the middle of the modwheel but then the CH strings are already starting to sound harsh and a bit piercing. Time to start to use my new Cubase modwheel realtime transform: use the whole range of the modwheel but let it only control CC1 from 0- 75  Does wonders to some libs. Should be good for LASS too...


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## Ben E (Dec 12, 2018)

Sid Francis said:


> Wow..I didn´t know that video exists, thanks! It already shows a lot. You rarely go over the first 10-15% of dynamics, the "dynamic expression" articulation seems to do the rest. I am used to move in about the middle of the modwheel but then the CH strings are already starting to sound harsh and a bit piercing.



Yes, exactly this. I do the same with Spitfire strings. Only rarely go above half way. I also use the actual volume automation in the midi region to help fade the notes to silence where they need to be, but I have to be careful with this because lowering the volume of course lowers everything including the reverb.


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## river angler (Dec 17, 2018)

Casiquire said:


>



Hi there Casiquire,

Ben here mentioned that he suspected that Chris Heins libraries were not that easy to play in to get them sounding realistic but he is talking from a non players perspective!

As a player yourself I was wondering if you could tell me just how playable the Chris Heins libraries actually are?

I will be principally using the velocity/CC11 combo option in the GUI to play in my parts while mocking up. I am hoping if I master the idiom of Heins Ensemble Strings and Solo Violin samples that I won't have to go into the Piano Roll window as much as I used to with the basic Kontakt VSL samples and Miroslav 1's samples I have been using in the past?

Also the cross fading must be way more smooth than either of these old libraries so I imagine I won't need to keep choosing between one velocity layers timbre and another as I used to with Kontakts brass samples for example where the crossfade between velocity 89 and 90 was so abrupt!...?


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## Casiquire (Dec 17, 2018)

river angler said:


> Hi there Casiquire,
> 
> Ben here mentioned that he suspected that Chris Heins libraries were not that easy to play in to get them sounding realistic but he is talking from a non players perspective!
> 
> ...



For the sake of full disclosure, I only own the solo strings, not the ensemble or any of the others. I think that this thread has shown that the results are actually quite good from the ensemble library. Any of them would be a nice big step up from what you're using now.

I find the solos extremely playable personally. The crossfades are flawless for the most part with a few rare exceptions and those can all be worked around really easily by deactivating the crossfade for that note. I don't have to do much midi tweaking here


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## river angler (Dec 17, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> For the sake of full disclosure, I only own the solo strings, not the ensemble or any of the others. I think that this thread has shown that the results are actually quite good from the ensemble library. Any of them would be a nice big step up from what you're using now.
> 
> I find the solos extremely playable personally. The crossfades are flawless for the most part with a few rare exceptions and those can all be worked around really easily by dedicating the crossfade for that note. I don't have to do much midi tweaking here



Ah! thanks for your informative reply! ...Oh! Im definitely going to acquire the Solo Strings library- it's astonishingly musical! and probably the Ensemble one too!

Cheers!


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## Casiquire (Dec 17, 2018)

river angler said:


> Ah! thanks for your informative reply! ...Oh! Im definitely going to acquire the Solo Strings library- it's astonishingly musical! and probably the Ensemble one too!
> 
> Cheers!



It truly is astonishingly musical. The expressive arcs the players play make almost anything sound full of life.


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## river angler (Dec 17, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> It truly is astonishingly musical. The expressive arcs the players play make almost anything sound full of life.


Do you use any Orchestral Tools offerings per chance?


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## Casiquire (Dec 17, 2018)

river angler said:


> Do you use any Orchestral Tools offerings per chance?



I don't but they do interest me a lot. I just haven't happened to need any of them as of yet. They sound fantastic.


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## river angler (Dec 17, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> I don't but they do interest me a lot. I just haven't happened to need any of them as of yet. They sound fantastic.


Yes! me too! I'm still tempted to snap up the Inspire series before the sale finishes! I realise they have limited articulations and perhaps not as dynamic as the full Berlin Strings/Brass/WWind series but for quick orchestral mockups I think they are a steel especially as I work exclusively on a 16GB ram MacBook Pro.


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## Casiquire (Dec 17, 2018)

river angler said:


> Yes! me too! I'm still tempted to snap up the Inspire series before the sale finishes! I realise they have limited articulations and perhaps not as dynamic as the full Berlin Strings/Brass/WWind series but for quick orchestral mockups I think they are a steel especially as I work exclusively on a 16GB ram MacBook Pro.



I work on a laptop a lot too. I think you'd be surprised how far a good laptop can get you. People in places like this obsess over software and hardware but it actually doesn't take much on ieither front.


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## river angler (Dec 18, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> ...but it actually doesn't take much on in either front.


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## river angler (Dec 18, 2018)

Glad to here from a fellow pro laptop user!... but didn't understand the end of your sentence...?


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## Casiquire (Dec 18, 2018)

river angler said:


> Glad to here from a fellow pro laptop user!... but didn't understand the end of your sentence...?



There was a typo, the word "in" didn't belong there. What I was trying to say was that it doesn't take much in terms of hardware or software to get amazing, even professional level results today. You can have a decent laptop and make magic.


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## Chris Hein (Dec 18, 2018)

A word on ram demand of my instruments:

All articulations you don't need can be unloaded.
Each and every function which requires ram can be turned off.

Turning of the true legato saves a few hundred MB.
The blending controls which let you blend into a trill or tremolo can be disabled.
Adjusting the speed of e.g. a run or trill uses the time machine which requires ram. Turn this on only when you need it.

In the articulation overview page, you find a button "Empty all"
This cleans the instrument completely and sets the ram usage to 0.
From here you can start to fill the instrument with articulations and functions.

Lets say you just need a few pizzicato notes from the Contrabass.
Why should you load a few GB of samples?
With only the pizzicato loaded, you'll need only a few MB.

Chris Hein


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## PSKLN (Dec 22, 2018)

Chris Hein said:


> New demo for Chris Hein - Ensemble Strings from the awesome Ben Eshbach.
> 
> 
> Chris Hein



Wow, this is beautiful!
...after a few moments of listening I stopped searching for hints of virtual instruments - it just sounds great, the composition and the tools 

...mmh, so maybe no Spitfire whishlist, but wait for next Chris Hein discount ?!


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## ionian (Dec 22, 2018)

PSKLN said:


> ...mmh, so maybe no Spitfire whishlist, but wait for next Chris Hein discount ?!



That's what I'm doing. I thought he'd have one similar to Black Friday for Xmas, but it doesn't seem to be the case at the moment. Either way, it's not essential so I'll sit back and wait until next black friday if I have to.


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## river angler (Dec 22, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> There was a typo, the word "in" didn't belong there. What I was trying to say was that it doesn't take much in terms of hardware or software to get amazing, even professional level results today. You can have a decent laptop and make magic.


Absolutely! We are all spoilt for choice in this digital age in terms of "in the box tools". I think this choice is sometimes like the angler who walks into a fishing tackle shop: there's more gear in that Aladins Cave to catch anglers than fish!


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