# Client Frustration



## EthanStoller (Apr 1, 2010)

Funny, I can't think of a specific example but I feel like I've gone through this a hundred times myself. On the one hand it is frustrating, but on the other it heartens me. I'm encouraged by stories like this because it is evidence that cheapo library music won't ever replace real composers. I'm always a little bemused by the hand-wringing over library music because I feel like every job I've ever had has required numerous tweaks, whether they were just silly or actual improvements.


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## midphase (Apr 1, 2010)

I've long maintained that the advertising industry is the ass-stenchiest part of our line of work.

I hate it, I have the idiots who are in charge, and it gives composers more grey hair and stress than any other media. I was glad to get away from it and despite the payout being really good at times...it's just not worth the stress.

I have some nightmare stories that make your experience seem mild.


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## dinerdog (Apr 1, 2010)

I've been doing commercials for a LONG time and my observations haven't changed.

1. It's an incredibly dismissive industry.

2. If you don't have a THICK skin and need sleep, get another job.

3. It's not about the 'best' music.

4. It's a numbers game (if you win 1 out of 20 demos these days, your pretty good)

5. Don't EVER expect to be thanked for doing a good job.

6. I've done revisions 'after' something has already aired.

7. It's not what you can do, it's what you can do in 30 minutes....

The list goes on and on. It's not for the meek, or anyone who thinks there music is precious. Like anything great, you should throw out WAY more ideas (though keep track of them on your harddrive) than most people ever imagine writing. Just like film. Same beast in different clothing (with less time).

One tip for submitting demo mixes: I'm usually required to do a layback to Quicktime for people to look at wherever they are. For years I tried to make it all sound good in my sequence. Not good enough. I now just use a sequence with 2 audio tracks:one for the VO (no matter how bad) and one for the music. Put a compressor on the music and sidechain the VO track to it. It's important to learn how to do this and make it sound like it's on TV. Music pumps, but NEVER fights the VO. That's all they're listening to at first:how it works with the copy. This will make the presentation more like what they're used to hearing.

And again, Smokey Robinson just reminded everyone at SXSW his 2 biggest tips for being in the industry were : a thick skin and not taking yourself too seriously.

I'm with midphase, some of our advertising war stories would send you RUNNING.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Apr 1, 2010)

Yep, this is pretty mild in my book too.

If this is driving you nuts already, get ready for some heavier stuff down the road...
:twisted:


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## requiem_aeternam7 (Apr 1, 2010)

Yeah buddy. No offense but get out now. It sounds like you're not cut out for this line of work. I've only MILDLY broke into the industry to do some of this work and I've already experienced FAR WORSE than the stuff you speak of. 
It's a growing experience though, if you can thicken up your skin ALOT and know that you're for the most part dealing with musical retards you'll be better off. Or start drinking a lot of vodka/whiskey to get through the day (my personal method of choice). o-[][]-o


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## JJP (Apr 1, 2010)

dinerdog @ Thu Apr 01 said:


> I've been doing commercials for a LONG time and my observations haven't changed...



Great summary! I don't do commercials these days, but you certainly summed my experience.

I think the worst thing that ever happened on a commercial was having the music recorded, mixed, delivered, and resoundingly approved by the client a month ahead of schedule. What does the agency do for the remaining month? First demand revisions and then demand complete rewrites from scratch in completely new directions. None of these new ideas work because they're already married to music that we wrote and the client has approved. Yet for some reason, the agency just isn't happy and is sending signals that maybe the composer is the problem and perhaps it's time for a change of composer.

By the way the agency never lets the client hear any of these new directions because the client HAS ALREADY SIGNED OFF ON THE MUSIC and the commercial done except for some color correction and effects work! >8o

Fortunately that gig paid very well. o-[][]-o


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## Studio E (Apr 2, 2010)

Well all of this actually makes me feel better. So who here would charge more beyond the original amount if it starts to look more like a rewrite than tweaks to the original concept. I was fine with going back 2 or 3 times to get it just right but to ditch the entire concept that they provided examples for makes me want to definitely charge more. Opinions?


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## dinerdog (Apr 2, 2010)

Many times it's all about ditching the original concept and starting from scratch. I would never charge more for rewrites. For me it's all about hitting a home run no matter what it takes.

I just did a spot where I wrote 10 pieces of music and they've gone back to v7 with extensive changes ("needs to build and score tighter to picture, more energy on the toys and have a definite end" etc...). We'll see how that goes. Sure, if they feel like they're torturing you they 'might' get you a little more money.

In general though and air date (or mix schedule) is your friend. And if you want to work for them again, they better not hear any attitude in your conversations. They're probably catching their own hell somewhere along the way. You need to be that cog in the machinery "that just works". That's what they'll remember more than the music.


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## requiem_aeternam7 (Apr 2, 2010)

dude I'm doing something as we speak for a client that accepted what I made already then out of no where called me and is now asking for huge extensive rewrites of the entire thing. It's retarded but what are you gonna do.....


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## Studio E (Apr 2, 2010)

I suppose that maybe I need to account for more time when I give the price next time. I've had such ggod luck with prior companies that my rates were really reasonable because the time involved wasnt that much. But ten rewrites? Wow, I hope that you make money at the end of that. I really couldnt afford to spend that much time on something at my current rate. Thanks for the feedback!


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## Frederick Russ (Apr 2, 2010)

In the final analysis, its a shared victory when a piece of music clears all the hurdles. A cue might sound great in standalone but may not fit the project exactly. Its like carving out wood blocks to fit exact slots whose specs can change midstream because with every piece you send, the more they get new ideas based on what you sent. You're not the only one being creative and by the way its never personal. It usually works out in the end however maddening. Get used to it because its part of the biz. Gotta love it!


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## Studio E (Apr 7, 2010)

Ahhh, after pulling many strands of hair out, the spot is approved. Due to time constraints, the ad agency pushed the final cut to the client with my music on it that the ad agency wanted to change. They were thinking of having me change it after the fact but the end client liked it the way it was. Imagine that, they liked what the artist thought worked, not what the ad agency wanted. 

Doesn't it suck sometimes to be an artist and "get it" when other people that you might be working for don't. 

Fortunately, it all worked out in the end and the production company really liked my work and said that they would be using me again so it looks like I picked up a new client. Yay!


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## givemenoughrope (Apr 13, 2010)

I've only ever submitted for one ad. Got emails and the quicktime, spent a whole day or two on it. Followed the instructions of the follow-up emails ("We need it quirkier. Really.") but didn't get it. Was never told to stop demoing, just never heard back. Saw it on the tube and it was about 10 shades less "quirky" than the few runs I sent them which confused the heck out of me. It was through a music house and then through a friend "" so I didn't even get a demo fee. It was fun to do though in hindsight but at the time I kept thinking that if one were to treat these as bread and butter, the whole demo game must be stressful as I was hustling. 

Here's my question(s): When do you get paid for this kind of gig? Is the OP doing demos at this point of crescendo haggling or have they committed to you (with their check book)? 

Also: Since we're sending files via the net, what is to stop them from taking your demo idea and giving to someone else to copy and finesse? That just happened to a friend of mine with a super A-list director. I'm sure that the demos he handed in made it's way to the composer he usually uses to draw from. Pretty lame considering how unique these demos were. 

Not trying to sound too grim and congrats to the OP for the success but I just figure that these questions have a place in thread that was already going that way. 

Ha, doing revisions to something that has already aired?!?! What?!?!


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## Studio E (Apr 13, 2010)

THe people writing the check on this one was the video production company. He was referred to me by a mutual friend so I wasnt worried about getting paid until the very end. I assumed he was good for it or our mutual friend wouldnt have made the connection. I ended up sending 3 demos and it was the 2nd one that made the cut.

The ad agency also hired a really crappy VO person so I knew that they didnt really understand what worked best in the first place. Live and learn.


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## givemenoughrope (Apr 13, 2010)

So, at the point that one of the demos made the cut you gave them you rates? I guess that would make sense from both sides.


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## Studio E (Apr 13, 2010)

Whoops sorry, I didnt answer what you were asking. I stated what my rate was for a local 1 minute commercial and they agreed to that. Then they asked if that included "some" revision if necessary. I told them that I'd be willing to work with them to an extent. 

I basically figure how much time I need to do something and figure my rate by that. If I was all of a sudden going to spend three days on something that I figured one day on originally, I would probably go back to the table before it got too out of control. It's never been a problem so far.


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