# Pianists, I hate you!



## lychee (Aug 24, 2021)

Sorry for the provocative title and if my thread is not posted in the right place, but I admire and at the same time I am jealous of you keyboardists.
I have been composing for 30 years now and I have never found the strength to learn the piano, yes because indeed I only play note by note on my computer via the piano roll.
When I see this arrogantly easy performance of an anime title from my childhood, where a guy plays three melodies at the same time with only 2 hands, it really puts me off.




How do you manage to do this, are you several in one body? 
It's also like playing the drums, my human brain is not able to play 4 separate parts corresponding to my 4 limbs, so I wonder if you are really humans?
Of course I'm kidding, but my question is serious, can you learn to divide your mind into three or four parts, or do you have to be predisposed for that?


----------



## Angora (Aug 24, 2021)

I would advise you not to look at piano and drums in this way, it makes it harder than it really is, it's not really about playing 3 or 4 parts separate from each other, it's about playing each hand in relation to the other !

It's not really something like that : I learn the melody left hand perfectly and then once it's done the right hand and after that I pray that it all works together.
It's rather that from the beginning, with the score you learn to understand when the right hand plays alone, then when the two hands play together, or when the left hand plays alone, and slowly the two hands synchronize, by dint of practice many pianists don't even think about that anymore, hence this impression of perfect independence, but that's the result you see there, Not the way !


----------



## FlyingAndi (Aug 24, 2021)

Some guitarists are just as bad


----------



## lychee (Aug 24, 2021)

Angora said:


> I would advise you not to look at piano and drums in this way, it makes it harder than it really is, it's not really about playing 3 or 4 parts separate from each other, it's about playing each hand in relation to the other !
> 
> It's not really something like that : I learn the melody left hand perfectly and then once it's done the right hand and after that I pray that it all works together.
> It's rather that from the beginning, with the score you learn to understand when the right hand plays alone, then when the two hands play together, or when the left hand plays alone, and slowly the two hands synchronize, by dint of practice many pianists don't even think about that anymore, hence this impression of perfect independence, but that's the result you see there, Not the way !



Yes, of course there is certainly a version that simplifies all this by saying this hand plays such an chord in such a time and such other such notes at a given time.
But even with that, I would have a hard time not having one hand influencing the other and ultimately disorganizing the whole thing.
I have the impression that the cabling of my brain was not made for multitasking.



FlyingAndi said:


> Some guitarists are just as bad




You won, now I hate guitarists too!


----------



## mybadmemory (Aug 24, 2021)

Learning hand independence is like learning to ride a bike. You can do it, and once you passed a certain threshold, it’s just comes natural.

And it’s not really playing many melodies at once, but rather about playing one melody using different parts of your body for each note.


----------



## mybadmemory (Aug 24, 2021)

I’m sure you already do lots of things where many different parts of your body is used for different things at once. This is just another thing like it!


----------



## rudi (Aug 24, 2021)

The Rosanna Half Time shuffle by Jeff Porcaro... not just how he blends the various elements simulteanously... but gives it an amazing feel:


----------



## lychee (Aug 24, 2021)

rudi said:


> The Rosanna Half Time shuffle by Jeff Porcaro... not just how he blends the various elements simulteanously... but gives it an amazing feel:



Lychee hanged himself out of desperation.


----------



## jcrosby (Aug 24, 2021)

Pianist Envy


----------



## kgdrum (Aug 24, 2021)

@lychee


You might not want to listen to this, Chucho does things on the piano that I just can’t imagine ever having the ability to do.


----------



## Markus Kohlprath (Aug 24, 2021)

The simplest and probably best solution and the answer to all your questions: get a good piano teacher...


----------



## kgdrum (Aug 24, 2021)

if you want to double the fun or torture depending on your perspective this is fascinating,solos and the amazing duets!


----------



## Per Boysen (Aug 24, 2021)

lychee said:


> How do you manage to do this, are you several in one body?
> It's also like playing the drums, my human brain is not able to play 4 separate parts corresponding to my 4 limbs, so I wonder if you are really humans?
> Of course I'm kidding, but my question is serious, can you learn to divide your mind into three or four parts, or do you have to be predisposed for that?


I know what you are talking about because I myself experienced a highly frustrating year when learning to play the Chapman Stick (12 strings tapped with all ten fingers). All instruments that require multitasking take about a year to get into, simply because your brain needs to grow new neurons to enable your mind to follow and work multiple instant independent scenarios. But once you have done that one-year groundwork, instruments like the drums, piano, harp, stick etc become more accessible. If you don't know about this you might give it up too early thinking "it is impossible".

Normally we tend to use our best hand for delicate tasks and thus come to develop only minimal multitasking capabilities. And we are technically "two-channel" beings, so as soon as a third scenario is added to whatever you are performing you must also start to "juggle" your mind's focus around, shuffling activities between the two main focuses and the background. Before training multitasking for a year one hand typically interrupts the other hand all the time, and that is so frustrating  You need to make your mind "the director" and your body parts "the musicians of an ensemble".


----------



## Double Helix (Aug 24, 2021)

Any of the Fine Arts is fiendishly difficult to master, but in terms of complexity of performance, I truly don't see how anybody plays pedal steel.


----------



## Colin66 (Aug 24, 2021)

I think it's worth stating that there are levels of hand independence, it isn't an 'all or nothing' scenario. I'm still fairly new to piano, about 20 months into my learning. What I noticed is that initially I had zero hand independence. It was horrible! It took about 10 weeks to go from level 0 to 1. I was elated that I'd moved off 0 but slightly disappointed when I realised that there were a few more levels to go. I think the going from 0 to 1 is the biggest change and from then on it's small increments that you don't notice quite as much.


----------



## b_elliott (Aug 24, 2021)

Not a keyboardist myself, however am endlessly fascinated with JS Bach who pulled of 6-part counterpoint: one organ, an organist, right hand plays 2-parts, left hand plays 2-part, double pedaling for the feet = 6-parts. 

Paul Jacobs spoke about the emotional experience playing such a work here. 

I believe this is the work Jacobs was referring to. One can see in this particular video the counterpoint building from 2-part counterpoint then culminating in 6-part. 

I venture to say this skill-set is beyond mere mortals.


----------



## AudioLoco (Aug 24, 2021)

FlyingAndi said:


> Some guitarists are just as bad



That is not playing guitar, it's playing keyboards on the wrong instrument.

Great technique and coordination involved, but I never like the actual sound that come out of this tehchnique... Just get a piano 

Like this other guy:


----------



## Montisquirrel (Aug 24, 2021)

lychee said:


> I have been composing for 30 years now and I have never found the strength to learn the piano,


But you have time to start threads like this 

My advice: Start today and thank yourself in a few month. It is not that hard. Just do it. And don't watch videos or some virtuose players. Your goal should not be to compete with them (that would be like: "Oh no, I don't start learning composing because right now I can't write music like Beethoven).


----------



## Colin66 (Aug 24, 2021)

Montisquirrel said:


> But you have time to start threads like this
> 
> My advice: Start today and thank yourself in a few month. It is not that hard. Just do it. And don't watch videos or some virtuose players. Your goal should not be to compete with them (that would be like: "Oh no, I don't start learning composing because right now I can't write music like Beethoven).


Yeah I agree. Also a lot of people who are new to piano also have to learn what different intervals sound like, triads, 7th chords, poly chords, scales etc. You already have that knowledge, you're basically just learning to press the keys down :D


----------



## _Adam_ (Aug 24, 2021)

I’m at a level 0 with regards to hand independence on piano. I can, however, play country blues with thumb independence on guitar.

There was a point when I thought I’d never “get it” but now I know it eventually just clicks, so I’m hopeful for the same to eventually happen with the keys.

As said above, it helps to not think in terms of two separate melodies being played at once but rather one melody being played with both hands.


----------



## Voider (Aug 24, 2021)

lychee said:


> When I see this arrogantly easy performance of an anime title from my childhood, where a guy plays three melodies at the same time with only 2 hands, it really puts me off.


If this already freaks you out, I can't wait to see your reaction to this guy:


----------



## ChrisSiuMusic (Aug 24, 2021)

When I began my classical piano studies, I distinctly remember having to spend countless hours perfecting Bach Fugues, as they had up to 4-5 voices at a time, and a melody was almost always nearly present in one of them. 

Practicing the hands separately, then focusing on bringing out the melody when it was present really takes time and deliberate thinking. Once you're able to control the hands in this way, everything else becomes a lot simpler, even the most technically challenging pieces (Rach 3). Enjoy the journey, it's never too late to begin!


----------



## Colin66 (Aug 24, 2021)

lychee said:


> Lychee hanged himself out of desperation.


If it makes you feel any better that Half Time shuffle was originally created by Bernard Purdie and nicknamed the Purdie Shuffle........even greats like Porcaro borrow/steal!


----------



## Ivan M. (Aug 24, 2021)

lychee said:


> How do you manage to do this


It seems overwhelming because you are trying to consciously process everything at the same time, every line and every note. But that's not how keyboardists play, most of it is in the muscle memory, it's automatic, the brain only provides a general direction. 

BTW, that's why sometimes black-outs happen where ppl completely forget a part of the composition. That's where harmonic (and other) understanding of the piece comes in, so they can fill in the blanks on the spot.


----------



## cuttime (Aug 24, 2021)

Bach's "Well Tempered Clavier" has always been my bread and butter. I'm not a master, and probably never will be, but if you get a fugue or two under your fingers, you probably will get as much finger independence as you will ever need. The Prelude and Fugue from book one is Bach's cruelest, meanest joke - one of the easiest piano exercises that any grade one student can play, followed by one of the most difficult, mind bending fugues that will get you up to Bill Evans level mastery.


----------



## giwro (Aug 24, 2021)

b_elliott said:


> Not a keyboardist myself, however am endlessly fascinated with JS Bach who pulled of 6-part counterpoint: one organ, an organist, right hand plays 2-parts, left hand plays 2-part, double pedaling for the feet = 6-parts.
> 
> Paul Jacobs spoke about the emotional experience playing such a work here.
> 
> ...


I’m an organist, and I can attest that when you finally master a complex piece of counterpoint…. It’s an exhilarating and exciting thing.

Here’s an interesting tidbit - I sat down one day and played the drums. Not great, mind you, but I could manage 4 things at once (simply, of course). I think it was due to the fact that being an organist, I’d already developed those neurons and skills to do several things at once…


----------



## Ray Cole (Aug 24, 2021)

Not to add fuel to the fire, but one of my favorite examples of amazing hand independence occurs near the end of Denny Zeitlin's "Blue Phoenix" starting at around 12:15 and running through about 14:30.



And then there is the fiendish "Etude No. 1" by Tigran Hamasyan which seems designed to stress hand independence:



Obviously, this level of control only comes after a LOT of practice and experience.


----------



## b_elliott (Aug 24, 2021)

giwro said:


> I’m an organist, and I can attest that when you finally master a complex piece of counterpoint…. It’s an exhilarating and exciting thing.
> 
> Here’s an interesting tidbit - I sat down one day and played the drums. Not great, mind you, but I could manage 4 things at once (simply, of course). I think it was due to the fact that being an organist, I’d already developed those neurons and skills to do several things at once…


Cool to hear. I am the inverse of you: a drummer firstly, but early on I took music theory from a church organist. He knew I was skilled as a drummer so he surprised me one lesson when he pulled out a Bach organ book. My task was to tap only the rhythms (sans drums) wherein pedals = BD foot; right hand = treble clef; left hand = bass clef. 
That was an eye opener for me. 
It would make for an interesting exercise for anyone to have a go at for sight reading, independence skills and rhythmic flow of a high level. 
Likely Bach or Gene Krupa would approve.

ps. Admiration to all keyboardists.


----------



## tmhuud (Aug 24, 2021)

Learn to play the piano. It’s so gratifying, you’ll thank yourself later. It can be a lifetime pursuit depending on what you want to play.

What the hell, if your a percussionist your already in the groove. Check out Stuart Copeland’s “Ten Thumbs”.


----------



## ryans (Aug 24, 2021)

How about independent hand control with the added layer of being completely improvised?


----------



## CT (Aug 24, 2021)

4 ur njoyment




I can handle the first page or so....


----------



## PaulieDC (Aug 24, 2021)

rudi said:


> The Rosanna Half Time shuffle by Jeff Porcaro... not just how he blends the various elements simulteanously... but gives it an amazing feel:



Ha! I just showed this video to my wife the other day, she doesn't play drums but has always admired the craft. To see it for the first time past week and then it shows up in this thread, what are the chances? And how crazy good he was...


----------



## PaulieDC (Aug 24, 2021)

lychee said:


> Of course I'm kidding, but my question is serious, can you learn to divide your mind into three or four parts, or do you have to be predisposed for that?


No, it's something you have to work at, and once you achieve separation it's almost weird that you couldn't do it. I worked for months when I was young on Solace by Scott Joplin. When it gets to the main "chorus" of the instrumental, the left hand is so different from the right it's crazy. I eventually got it but it took time. Learning ragtime as a kid (nothing else to do back then) was more helpful then I realized, there's a style where the left hand is the whole band and the right hand is the soloist, lol. I'm not a trained pianist and don't play much classical and I have hands like a baseball mitt, but staying with it will get you results. Problem is, we're all busy with life, unlike me at 11! I'm trying to get the Tommy Emmanuel/Chet Atkins-style down on guitar, where the left thumb is totally separate from the rest of your hand. It's nuts. In fact, here, you can hate guitarists too:



I wrote all that to say YES, it's acquired and you'll want to practice every day with a piece you choose to conquer. Go for it! Oh, don't pick Linus and Lucy (Vince Guaraldi) from Charlie Brown Christmas... I'm not sure anyone has accurately reproduced that!


----------



## chillbot (Aug 24, 2021)

My dad studied piano his entire life, endless lessons, practiced 2 hours minimum every day... got reasonably competent but never had any feel or touch for the instrument... loved jazz but was unable to improvise. And was completely incapable of performing in front of anyone.

I feel the same way about Spanish, I've busted my ass studying it to the point where I feel like I could have learned 10 new instruments. It's not just Spanish, but any language for me. I can't wrap my head around it. Like my dad's piano, I can speak competently (though not at all fluently) to myself but the second anyone asks me Como Estas? I completely freeze up.

I think you have to have some exposure to it as a kid, maybe. Outside of possible natural talent. I never had any Spanish as a kid and now I'm in my 40s. I was fortunate to start drums early and was on drum set by the 2nd grade so the four different limbs playing four different things comes naturally to me. I find piano comes easy though I don't work on it these days... I was pretty good in college.

Not sure the point, I guess to the people saying: pick up piano, you'll thank yourself later. Yeah, maybe. But it can also be a constant struggle. I'm not giving up on Spanish but I have pretty much given up on ever being able to have a fluent conversation in Spanish. I'll make do with being able to order a beer or food in a restaurant. I see it with my dad at piano and me with languages... some people can speak 5 languages and others play 5 instruments. But it's not necessarily X amount of work = X amount of results, our brains are all wired differently.


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh (Aug 24, 2021)

Voider said:


> If this already freaks you out, I can't wait to see your reaction to this guy:



Octaves… more octaves… lol. This might sound super hard but it’s pretty easy for a good pianist to be honest. Some of these youtube guys need to brush up on their arrangement skills 😎


----------



## Rex282 (Aug 24, 2021)

PaulieDC said:


> I wrote all that to say YES, it's acquired and you'll want to practice every day with a piece you choose to conquer. Go for it! Oh, don't pick Linus and Lucy (Vince Guaraldi) from Charlie Brown Christmas... I'm not sure anyone has accurately reproduced that!





PaulieDC said:


> No, it's something you have to work at, and once you achieve separation it's almost weird that you couldn't do it. I worked for months when I was young on Solace by Scott Joplin. When it gets to the main "chorus" of the instrumental, the left hand is so different from the right it's crazy. I eventually got it but it took time. Learning ragtime as a kid (nothing else to do back then) was more helpful then I realized, there's a style where the left hand is the whole band and the right hand is the soloist, lol. I'm not a trained pianist and don't play much classical and I have hands like a baseball mitt, but staying with it will get you results. Problem is, we're all busy with life, unlike me at 11! I'm trying to get the Tommy Emmanuel/Chet Atkins-style down on guitar, where the left thumb is totally separate from the rest of your hand. It's nuts. In fact, here, you can hate guitarists too:
> 
> 
> 
> I wrote all that to say YES, it's acquired and you'll want to practice every day with a piece you choose to conquer. Go for it! Oh, don't pick Linus and Lucy (Vince Guaraldi) from Charlie Brown Christmas... I'm not sure anyone has accurately reproduced that!



Hhmmmm I wanted to play Linus and Lucy on the guitar tap style so I figured it out on Piano(with help from a pianist) and practiced the left and right separately.They are actually pretty easy, and then slowly linked them .The trick is the syncopation but many of the parts line up.Then I did the same on guitar which made it much easier.It’s definItaly a thing where you cant think of the notes separately they dance with each other.


----------



## kgdrum (Aug 25, 2021)

While this artist isn’t everyone’s cup of tea, the creativity,musicality and unique voice Cecil Taylor brought to the music world was unlike any jazz pianist I’ve ever encountered. For me a discussion like this should address unique often misunderstood virtuoso’s who were perfectly comfortable breaking barriers ,changing boundaries,excepted norms who also employed an enormous amount of technical prowess and altered the musical landscape and broadened the vocabulary.
His music could be polarizing but random incoherent musical chaos it definitely *WAS NOT!*
Cecil’s was not intended for easy listening but imo his virtuosity and unique voice was undeniable. 🎶❤️🎶


----------



## lychee (Aug 25, 2021)

Montisquirrel said:


> But you have time to start threads like this


In your opinion, is it easier to open a thread or to learn the piano? 

In any case, thank you for your answers, and especially for those who say they are at stage zero or one, and that it is not an insurmountable fatality.
This gives me courage and I only have one last problem to resolve, my laziness.


----------



## Colin66 (Aug 25, 2021)

lychee said:


> In your opinion, is it easier to open a thread or to learn the piano?
> 
> In any case, thank you for your answers, and especially for those who say they are at stage zero or one, and that it is not an insurmountable fatality.
> This gives me courage and I only have one last problem to resolve, my laziness.


Your laziness shouldn't be too hard to overcome since learning the piano is best done sitting down.


----------



## lychee (Aug 25, 2021)

Colin66 said:


> Your laziness shouldn't be too hard to overcome since learning the piano is best done sitting down.


The best for me would be to be able to do it while lying down.


----------



## FlyingAndi (Aug 25, 2021)

I've posted this before somewhere around here, but I can't get enough of this one. Here's some more organ with amazing footwork:


----------



## b_elliott (Aug 25, 2021)

FlyingAndi said:


> I've posted this before somewhere around here, but I can't get enough of this one. Here's some more organ with amazing footwork:



Nice, but I thought I saw a puddy cat @27secs in.


----------



## InLight-Tone (Aug 25, 2021)

Is your goal to be a keyboard performer, or a composer?
Speaking of drums:


----------



## Ray Cole (Aug 25, 2021)

InLight-Tone said:


> Is your goal to be a keyboard performer, or a composer?
> Speaking of drums:



Oooh, thanks for that. Andre Forbes is someone I haven't heard of before. He's good on the keyboard drums! Another keyboard drummer with a lot of talent is Yohan Kim, a young musician from South Korea:



He also happens to be a terrific keyboardist and competent guitarist. Some people seem to get all the talent!


----------



## Duncan Krummel (Aug 25, 2021)

lychee said:


> The best for me would be to be able to do it while lying down.


Just gonna leave this here…


----------



## PaulieDC (Aug 25, 2021)

Rex282 said:


> Hhmmmm I wanted to play Linus and Lucy on the guitar tap style so I figured it out on Piano(with help from a pianist) and practiced the left and right separately.They are actually pretty easy, and then slowly linked them .The trick is the syncopation but many of the parts line up.Then I did the same on guitar which made it much easier.It’s definItaly a thing where you cant think of the notes separately they dance with each other.


Nice! I think that's the approach. OK, time to revisit it. The problem on piano is the intervals for the three-note melody line, just getting THAT smoothly takes time. David Benoit explains it here, interesting, and he does say to first work out the hands separately. Then check out the awkward intervals, this is more challenging than it seems at first!


----------



## Fab (Aug 25, 2021)

lychee said:


> Sorry for the provocative title and if my thread is not posted in the right place, but I admire and at the same time I am jealous of you keyboardists.
> I have been composing for 30 years now and I have never found the strength to learn the piano, yes because indeed I only play note by note on my computer via the piano roll.
> When I see this arrogantly easy performance of an anime title from my childhood, where a guy plays three melodies at the same time with only 2 hands, it really puts me off.
> 
> ...



It's mainly practice, lot's and lot's and lot's and lot's and lot's a....


...nd then sometimes you'll meet people who say they do practice but they still can't do it, they have probably not been practicing correctly.


----------

