# Imposter Syndrome



## dcoscina (Apr 4, 2021)

I'm assuming more than a few of you folks run across this from time to time. I've been going through my catalog today and everything just sounds... meh. Does it help I've been existing on a diet of Bartok and Stravinsky and vintage Goldsmith these days? Probably not. Of course, like many, I divide my time between family, day job work, journalism, beta testing, etc etc,. Not an excuse, just a fact. I remember attending a performance of Shosty's 1st Symphony and read that he composed it when he was only 19! I lamented my comparative ineptitude to a friend who is a concert composer and he just replied "well, Shostakovich didn't have to worry about paying rent or working a day job"... of course he had to worry about getting killed by Stalin but that's a whole other topic for conversation..

The more I study works of the masters, the more futile I see my own work. Oh well. Like all things, these spells pass and I stubbornly inch forward and come to terms with my own mediocrity... Happy Easter everyone!


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## robgb (Apr 4, 2021)

We're all imposters. So what. You just do what you do and don't worry about anything else.


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## CT (Apr 4, 2021)

I agree with robguhbuh.

We must have enough reverence for the greats to learn from them, to respect the craft and more intangible qualities of their work, and to be moved to embrace the same level of commitment to the art, but not so much reverence that we're bound by their example and cripplingly dismissive of our own work in comparison. Let that work be what it is and leave whatever judgements must be passed, if any, to history. It's not our business.

A relevant T.S. Eliot excerpt I often think of:

So here I am, in the middle way, having had twenty years—
Twenty years largely wasted, the years of l'entre deux guerres
Trying to learn to use words, and every attempt 
Is a wholly new start, and a different kind of failure
Because one has only learnt to get the better of words
For the thing one no longer has to say, or the way in which
One is no longer disposed to say it. And so each venture
Is a new beginning, a raid on the inarticulate
With shabby equipment always deteriorating
In the general mess of imprecision of feeling,
Undisciplined squads of emotion. And what there is to conquer
By strength and submission, has already been discovered
Once or twice, or several times, by men whom one cannot hope
To emulate—but there is no competition—
There is only the fight to recover what has been lost
And found and lost again and again: and now, under conditions
That seem unpropitious. But perhaps neither gain nor loss.
For us, there is only the trying. The rest is not our business.


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## MartinH. (Apr 4, 2021)

I've stumbled accross this video yesterday and I really like his perspective on being an artist:


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## Markrs (Apr 4, 2021)

For me I love the creativity, when I write I don't expect to write like Dickens, Emily Bronte or HG Wells. I write express, to be creative. When I draw, I don't expect to be Picasso, Lucien Freud or David Hockney. I draw to express, to be creative.

The fact there is people in the past and today that are infinitely better at it doesn't stop me from doing those things. In truth, it wouldn't stop even being more successful than them. In my personal view I only have to look at authors like Dan Brown and know you don't have to be the finest writer to be successful (perseverance helps).

Whilst it isn't easy it is best to learn from others but not to compare yourself to them.


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## Double Helix (Apr 4, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> . . .The more I study works of the masters. . .


I am quoting only eight words from your post. I believe these are key: "study" and "masters" -- this evinces commitment.

We refuse to be satisfied; we cannot cease chasing perfection. This is our essential human nature. Even the aforementioned masters did not rest on their laurels.


robgb said:


> We're all imposters. So what. You just do what you do and don't worry about anything else.


If I had not already pre-paid for cremation, I might have chosen ^^*this^^ *for my headstone


Markrs said:


> . . .Whilst it isn't easy it is best to learn from others but not to compare yourself to them.


. . .this community offers insight well beyond opinions about orchestral samples.


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## dcoscina (Apr 4, 2021)

Markrs said:


> For me I love the creativity, when I write I don't expect to write like Dickens, Emily Bronte or HG Wells. I write express, to be creative. When I draw, I don't expect to be Picasso, Lucien Freud or David Hockney. I draw to express, to be creative.
> 
> The fact there is people in the past and today that are infinitely better at it doesn't stop me from doing those things. In truth, it wouldn't stop even being more successful than them. In my personal view I only have to look at authors like Dan Brown and know you don't have to be the finest writer to be successful (perseverance helps).
> 
> Whilst it isn't easy it is best to learn from others but not to compare yourself to them.


Oh don't get me wrong. Most days, these magnificent works inspire me to up my own game. once in a while, they torment me. Some things in life, I'm reconciled at being ho-hum at. I'll never play tennis at the calibre of Federer nor be as accomplished a martial artist as Naka sensei, but I still enjoy and engage in those past times because they are enriching to my life. But I've been composing music for 35 years and some days, it doesn't feel as though I've made much progress which is awfully frustrating.


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## SergeD (Apr 4, 2021)

"Why become a second-rate Ravel when you're already a first-rate Gershwin?"
Just be yourself and dig, there are still many years to come.


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## Jish (Apr 4, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> Some things in life, I'm reconciled at being ho-hum at. I'll never play tennis at the calibre of Federer


Dave, and I say this only with love and goodwill on this Easter of days, but we don't even need to bring Federer's name into it- how about any ATP player in the top 1000 lol- there is a somewhat depressing distinction to be made there, but it often goes unsaid in these, 'I'll never do___ as good as ___' topics. Most of us are almost _painfully_ mediocre at most tasks, and I only say this to drive the point that deeper, to make it that more, well, 'real'. But you're right, at the end of the day, life goes on though our fragile human egos _will_ take a hit on some level.


dcoscina said:


> ... of course he had to worry about getting killed by Stalin but that's a whole other topic for conversation..


Sounds like it only made him that much cooler 


SergeD said:


> "Why become a second-rate Ravel when you're already a first-rate Gershwin?"
> Just be yourself and dig, there are still many years to come.


Actually, I always found that quote somewhat more unhealthy than potentially liberating- _most will never be born with the abilities to even become second-rate Ravel's_. Let alone even finer composers than him. See, it's very clever/useful advice if you happened to be born with the talent of Gershwin that at even that stage would have been obvious to Stravinsky- for the rest of the masses? You could do far, far worse than inspired, well-crafted imitation....


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## Arbee (Apr 4, 2021)

Great topic. While imposter syndrome haunts me every day, I'm also aware that the benchmark we set for ourselves tends to be the very best 1% of the output of the very best 0.1% of composers past and present .

The only way I can deal with imposter syndrome is to be resilient enough to carry on failing and learning until I succeed (by whichever definition of success we set for ourselves).


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## dcoscina (Apr 4, 2021)

Arbee said:


> Great topic. While imposter syndrome haunts me every day, I'm also aware that the benchmark we set for ourselves tends to be the very best 1% of the output of the very best 0.1% of composers past and present .
> 
> The only way I can deal with imposter syndrome is to be resilient enough to carry on failing and learning until I succeed (by whichever definition of success we set for ourselves).


Well said. I’d actually thought of deleting this thread. I don’t want to seem like I’m fishing for re assurance or validation or worse, wallowing in self pity (I have lots to be thankful for). I was merely wondering how many fellow composers also go through these spells.


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## CATDAD (Apr 4, 2021)

I'm not the greatest cook in the world either, but that doesn't stop me from putting together a shoddy sandwich and enjoying it each day!

(this is not particularly aimed at @dcoscina since you've been around the block and the fact you're still here means you already have your own way to get around these feelings)

When I'm feeling upset about my own ability, or what could have been, I try to look at both ends of the spectrum, rather than the top end. I'm thankful to have ever found the opportunity to create in the first place. For every unrestricted, privileged, opportunistic situation a master may have had, there are uncountable numbers of people who will never experience the joy of creating. I had to learn a lot of hard lessons about life before I could start on this adventure, and if I hadn't done that first I don't think I would have gotten anywhere with music anyways.

Plus there are often sacrifices people on these pedestals had to make to get there that are so great that you may not even want the whole package given the choice. Athletes that can't bend their knees anymore in their 40s, musicians with hands that feel pain 24 hours a day, no real friends or relationships, people who only care about what they can do and not who they are. Child prodigies with poor senses of love, emotional stability or security.

Maybe I wont be the greatest composer who ever lived, but I can be a positive influence on the people that are close to me and that I work with, perhaps even moreso than some of the very people I will never catch up to in music. I think this is what people mean when they say "it is important to have a life outside of music too". After all, at the end of the day isn't art just about the human experience?

(While I don't have decades of music writing weighing on me, these are my feelings gathered from experience with other disciplines, too)


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## Thundercat (Apr 4, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> I'm assuming more than a few of you folks run across this from time to time. I've been going through my catalog today and everything just sounds... meh. Does it help I've been existing on a diet of Bartok and Stravinsky and vintage Goldsmith these days? Probably not. Of course, like many, I divide my time between family, day job work, journalism, beta testing, etc etc,. Not an excuse, just a fact. I remember attending a performance of Shosty's 1st Symphony and read that he composed it when he was only 19! I lamented my comparative ineptitude to a friend who is a concert composer and he just replied "well, Shostakovich didn't have to worry about paying rent or working a day job"... of course he had to worry about getting killed by Stalin but that's a whole other topic for conversation..
> 
> The more I study works of the masters, the more futile I see my own work. Oh well. Like all things, these spells pass and I stubbornly inch forward and come to terms with my own mediocrity... Happy Easter everyone!


Is it a contest? Is there an ultimate judge? Why do you make music?

Like anything else, your "why" will dictate how you view what you are doing. If you are writing music to be "better" or "as good" as "the masters" - I would ask, why? And who is the subjective judge that you will have met your goal? And what will you get by attaining your goal?

A teacher once said to me, "instead of trying to achieve a particular goal, ask yourself what experience you are wanting to have by attaining the goal. What do you want to FEEL?"

Maybe you want more money? More clients? Accolades? Appreciation from strangers? Maybe you want to feel more powerful, or secure, or happier, or...fill in the blank?

I got depressed a long time ago with your above reasoning; now I just make music because it lets me express ME. I don't care that I will never be Bach or Mozart or Beethoven; they are dead. I am alive now and get to express ME.

Your raison d'être may be different...


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## Arbee (Apr 4, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> Well said. I’d actually thought of deleting this thread. I don’t want to seem like I’m fishing for re assurance or validation or worse, wallowing in self pity (I have lots to be thankful for). I was merely wondering how many fellow composers also go through these spells.


Sometimes I wish we WERE playing tennis, then I'd know how good I am simply by who I can beat. But with the arts, huh! ..... I guess we do it because we must.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Apr 5, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> Oh don't get me wrong. Most days, these magnificent works inspire me to up my own game. once in a while, they torment me. Some things in life, I'm reconciled at being ho-hum at. I'll never play tennis at the calibre of Federer nor be as accomplished a martial artist as Naka sensei, but I still enjoy and engage in those past times because they are enriching to my life. But I've been composing music for 35 years and some days, it doesn't feel as though I've made much progress which is awfully frustrating.


K so you mentioned Federer so I feel compelled to say hi. But yes absolutely imposter syndrome rears its ugly head all the time!


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## Pappaus (Apr 7, 2021)

I am new to composing as a hobby, but I have played in small time bands forever and as a guitarist, my friends would ask me “Who do you think is the greatest guitarist”. After years I finally found my stock answer - The greatest guitarist is the one playing right now. (I didn’t mean me - I meant anyone in the world who is playing at that given instant) While you are writing, you are the greatest composer. Once you take a break, that’s another story. I once spent twenty minutes working on a quartet, another ten minutes thinking “Boy I sure can write”, another ten minutes thinking “Where have I heard this theme before?”, and then a sad realization that “Boy that Beethoven sure could write”

But it was a great 20 minutes!!


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## patrick76 (Apr 7, 2021)

I was just watching Andrew Scheps talk to F. Reid Shippen on Puremix's youtube channel and he said that almost everyone he interviews for the series (mostly very successful mix engineers) has imposter syndrome... well, almost everyone. I also seem to remember Goldsmith saying something that would indicate he felt imposter syndrome as well. I won't bastardize the quote since I don't quite remember it. So, you're in good company!


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## marclawsonmusic (Apr 7, 2021)

I completely relate to this and empathize.

I read this book last year (it's short) and it offered some nice insights. Maybe it would be encouraging to you as well:




In the end, I think we create because we _must_. It's really a bit of a curse - unless you are wildly popular or successful (?). But even successful people express doubt sometimes. I've heard quotes from JW and HZ about the same.

I think it's a matter of finding a niche - an audience who appreciates what you offer. At least that is what I am telling myself right now! 

Good thread!


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## dcoscina (Apr 7, 2021)

I worked in Dorico today just using NotePerformer to compose. While not totally real for finished results, it was nice to just work in the realm of notes, harmonies, rhythms and orchestration. 

I then loaded up some BBCSO later on this evening in Studio One 5 and sheesh, it's actually pretty amazing! I've been doubling different instruments (mute horns, pizz strings and harp) just messing around with ideas. I guess the best thing is just DO .... eventually self-doubt or creative roadblocks go away by just trying stuff out.


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## David Kudell (Apr 7, 2021)

Thundercat said:


> Is it a contest? Is there an ultimate judge? Why do you make music?
> 
> Like anything else, your "why" will dictate how you view what you are doing. If you are writing music to be "better" or "as good" as "the masters" - I would ask, why? And who is the subjective judge that you will have met your goal? And what will you get by attaining your goal?
> 
> ...



This. 

What people forget in this “imposter syndrome” is who exactly are these theoretical judges determining if your music is good or not? And why should you care what these people think?

No matter what, there will always be critics, but do not give them a second thought.


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## marclawsonmusic (Apr 7, 2021)

I remember the first time I used NotePerformer. It felt so liberating to just focus on the piece and not faff around with MIDI edits!

I am trying to get my template into the same situation. Some great videos by Anne Kathrin-Dern have given me hope that I can copy-paste the same way I would in Sibelius. I just want to focus on the writing, not endless tweaking! Maybe BBCSO is a good option for this. Our friend James Semple had some nice things to say about it on Facebook.

Cheers


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## marclawsonmusic (Apr 7, 2021)

David Kudell said:


> This.
> 
> What people forget in this “imposter syndrome” is who exactly are these theoretical judges determining if your music is good or not? And why should you care what these people think?
> 
> No matter what, there will always be critics, but do not give them a second thought.


I think a lot of whether this sort of 'imposter' thing affects you depends on your upbringing. Sometimes that critical voice is actually the voice of a parent - or someone else powerful from your childhood... someone you are still trying to please.

Some of the greatest artists fought against this. In popular music, I know Sting has talked a lot about his father. Bono as well.

Just saying that it's easier for some people to throw it off than others. I can see it does not affect you much. I am happy for you, man.


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## David Kudell (Apr 7, 2021)

marclawsonmusic said:


> I think a lot of whether this sort of 'imposter' thing affects you depends on your upbringing. Sometimes that critical voice is actually the voice of a parent - or someone else powerful from your childhood... someone you are still trying to please.
> 
> Some of the greatest artists fought against this. In popular music, I know Sting has talked a lot about his father. Bono as well.
> 
> Just saying that it's easier for some people to throw it off than others. I can see it does not affect you much. I am happy for you, man.


Oh criticism absolutely affected me - I'm was afraid to even share my music until a little over a year ago. Even here on Vi-C. 

Then last year happened to me - baptism by fire. You'l never make everyone happy, so just write music you love and don't worry about it.


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## marclawsonmusic (Apr 7, 2021)

That is inspiring.

I've always heard the 'inner critic' louder than any external (random person) voice. But the external seems to amplify it.

Maybe the solution is baptism by fire! I saw all of that go down with you... it must have been very hard.

But now you're on the other side and encouraging others. Thanks for that. Really. Cheers


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## Saxer (Apr 7, 2021)

I had a teacher and I told him that I'm not able to write music without using a piano or the computer. He said: if you write good music nobody will ever ask how you did it. Use what you need and make the best out of it.


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## CT (Apr 7, 2021)

Two little anecdotes I recall in order to feel like maybe I'm not kidding myself about doing this. Back in 2010 my ear training professor, a composer himself, pointed out to me that I might have something to say as a composer before it ever even occurred to me (I thought I'd be a performer until then).

And along similar lines, probably within a few days of that conversation, a wise-seeming elderly woman told me during a concert that she could "feel" that I'd go on to write music, although I hadn't mentioned anything about considering that. I often wonder about her. I think it's likely that she's no longer around, but I'd want her to know how important that brief interaction with a stranger during an uncertain period was, looking back on it now.


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## gohrev (Apr 8, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> I guess the best thing is just DO .... eventually self-doubt or creative roadblocks go away by just trying stuff out.


To put things in perspective: I read an interview with John Williams and the reporter asked him if he likes to listen to his own music.



> Not particularly, no - I always hear something and think "I could've improved that part."


I'm paraphrasing, but I find it comforting that even titans like JW have their moments of doubt.


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## dcoscina (Apr 8, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> @dcoscina ...oh no, you didn't offer up your chastity in order to be a composer did you?!


my wife would be rather upset if I did.


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## GtrString (Apr 8, 2021)

"Imposter" is a bit loaded, like the word was designed to serve ideologies that are opposed to music.. well, having a taste of the word.. Im not the best composer, Im no the best songwriter, Im not the best guitarist, Im not the best producer, not the best singer.. but I enjoy expressing myself through music, and celebrate the artists I love and get my inspiration from. I like celebrator more.. some think of themselves as custodians for specific styles of music also.

I have worked in the world of research where less than 1% of scholars invent something new. They do it more to learn and to be of service to others. I think music need not be anything more.


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## Rubric (Apr 8, 2021)

Some excellent advice in this thread, so glad to read through these thoughtful insights!

I’d add that it’s a good idea to ignore most hierarchies, especially in music. If you love it, embody it, own it — the rest is mostly bureaucracy disguised as “authority”.


“Time discovers truth”

- Seneca


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## dcoscina (Apr 8, 2021)

marclawsonmusic said:


> That is inspiring.
> 
> I've always heard the 'inner critic' louder than any external (random person) voice. But the external seems to amplify it.
> 
> ...


Yes this! I don't actually give too much care for external critics- there will always be those who will be critical. It's my own expectations that I have to continually appeal to. Parenthetically, so long as striving for excellence does not paralyze one's own journey, I don't think it's bad to aspire to write as well as the masters.


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## NekujaK (Apr 8, 2021)

When in the presence of other talented musicians, or when comparing my music to the works of others, I ALWAYS feel like an imposter. Comparison will always lead to imposter syndrome because there's always someone out there "better" than us.

For me, part of it because I always feel there's more I can be learning, so I rarely go into situations with the attitude of being an expert. I usually assume everyone else knows a lot more than I do. Ironically, when I was in my teens/early-20s, knowing extremely little and being a medicore musician at best, I was brimming with confidence (regrettably to the point of being arrogant sometimes), thinking I knew everything. And that's when I truly was an imposter, but simply didn't realize it 

The other part of the imposter syndrome for me, is that I NEVER think my music is "good enough", even when I'm paid and the client loves it. But the following repeated experience has taught me to not judge myself so harshly... Sometimes I'll dig up a track I made 5 years ago that I had completely dismissed as a failure. Upon hearing it with fresh ears, I'm surprised to discover it actually sounds quite good. In fact, sometimes I need to double-check the details of the track to make sure it's actually one of mine. My problem is that while working on a piece, I have a very strong idea in my head of how it should sound, and if I don't hit that mark exactly, I'm instantly disappointed and think I failed. But listening years later, unburdened by preconceived expectations, the track actually sounds just fine.

I just keep in mind that sometimes we're imposters and sometimes we're masters. It's all relative. Put me in a tennis tournament at Wimbledon and I'm so very much the imposter. Put me in a tennis tournament at my local clubhouse and I have a decent chance at taking home a trohpy.

And remember, you're never an imposter at being you!


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## philamelian (Apr 8, 2021)

Early in my music carrier I was thinking I can reach the highest mountain peaks. I knew I needed to learn a lot to reach there but I believe I will be there at one point. Meanwhile apart from music I needed to deal with another money maker carrier path like many of you here. There were other people around me with same aspirations as well. 

Time passed, I am 20 years older than those times I can remember. My passion about music didn't disappear. Would you call it perseverance, being stubborn... Maybe... But for me making music is just like my voice. Have I reached to the mountain peak? No still far far away. I know walked great distances towards the target, but again it's like your common mountain hike, the more you approach better you appreciate how high those peaks are.

On the other hand through out years while me and people around me were dealing with many complexities of music, like theory production skills etc. every now and then I come across to these people on the street, videos, recordings... Simple people playing simple instruments but they can carry an emotion through their music so powerfully and direct...

We are all making our marks in this sonic universe. There is labour, love and passion in what we do. I will always try to expand my musical vocabulary and discover new worlds. Getting in the imposter syndrome mind would just be a distraction and would also block my voice relentlessly like a suppressed individual. And there is not that much time to deal with this in life. Making music is beautiful what ever level you are and there is already too many distractions.


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## gohrev (Apr 9, 2021)

Beautifully said, phil.


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## dcoscina (Apr 9, 2021)

marclawsonmusic said:


> I remember the first time I used NotePerformer. It felt so liberating to just focus on the piece and not faff around with MIDI edits!
> 
> I am trying to get my template into the same situation. Some great videos by Anne Kathrin-Dern have given me hope that I can copy-paste the same way I would in Sibelius. I just want to focus on the writing, not endless tweaking! Maybe BBCSO is a good option for this. Our friend James Semple had some nice things to say about it on Facebook.
> 
> Cheers


BBCSO is great for all over sound IMO. Some samples aren’t as good as others but it blends really well together. The new mutes brass are terrific. I was playing them the other night while composing in the style of the old Star Trek series composers and found them remarkably well suited to replicating that style.


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## Consona (Apr 10, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> I'm assuming more than a few of you folks run across this from time to time. I've been going through my catalog today and everything just sounds... meh. Does it help I've been existing on a diet of Bartok and Stravinsky and vintage Goldsmith these days? Probably not. Of course, like many, I divide my time between family, day job work, journalism, beta testing, etc etc,. Not an excuse, just a fact. I remember attending a performance of Shosty's 1st Symphony and read that he composed it when he was only 19! I lamented my comparative ineptitude to a friend who is a concert composer and he just replied "well, Shostakovich didn't have to worry about paying rent or working a day job"... of course he had to worry about getting killed by Stalin but that's a whole other topic for conversation..
> 
> The more I study works of the masters, the more futile I see my own work. Oh well. Like all things, these spells pass and I stubbornly inch forward and come to terms with my own mediocrity... Happy Easter everyone!


All that magnificent stuff those masters composed, and I'm still listening to this on repeat instead...


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## Tim_Wells (Apr 10, 2021)

Consona said:


> All that magnificent stuff those masters composed, and I'm still listening to this on repeat instead...


Listening... or watching?


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## Consona (Apr 10, 2021)




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