# How long did it take you to work full time as a library composer?



## Valérie_D (May 23, 2015)

Just a little survey to motivate (or unmotivate :D ) me since I have been completely immerssed in my library work in the last year, doing my music in my spare time. 

I wish to eventually compose library works full time and while it will not be overnight, I thought I would collect some testimonies here, if you feel like sharing.

Bests,

Valérie


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## RiffWraith (May 23, 2015)

If you factor in that in most cases it takes 6-9 mos. to get paid from your PRO (sometimes a year or more), and that it takes a while to get placements, and that you typically need to slowly but surely build up you catalogue with hundreds and hundreds (if not thousands) of tracks to make decent money, you should realistically expect it to take 3-4 years until you are able to make a comfortable living. It won't take you that long to see any money, but to _make a living _- probably that long. There are exceptions of course, but you should never count on being the exception. 

Cheers.


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## Greg (May 23, 2015)

It really depends how comfortable you are with selling out, doing knock offs, and writing cookie cutter music. 

If you tackle it unashamedly and don't mind using tons of loops, then you could get pretty successful in 1-2 years. 

Not to say that library music is all shit, it's just obvious that these shortcuts are very efficient for making $ at it.


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## doctornine (May 23, 2015)

Greg @ Sat May 23 said:


> It really depends how comfortable you are with selling out, doing knock offs, and writing cookie cutter music.
> 
> If you tackle it unashamedly and don't mind using tons of loops, then you could get pretty successful in 1-2 years.
> 
> Not to say that library music is all shit, it's just obvious that these shortcuts are very efficient for making $ at it.



yawwwwnnnnnn….. here we go again…….

Try getting into top tier libraries with that attitude.

o[])


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## Valérie_D (May 23, 2015)

Well I don't devalue both approach but my goal is to get into top tier libraries, one well produced album at a time.


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## Stiltzkin (May 23, 2015)

doctornine @ Sat May 23 said:


> yawwwwnnnnnn….. here we go again…….
> 
> Try getting into top tier libraries with that attitude.
> 
> o[])



Out of interest (because I have no involvement with libraries at the moment) which libraries ARE top tier?


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## Valérie_D (May 23, 2015)

I don't know them all obviously but I think Gothic Storm, Immediate Music, DeWolfe, Extreme Music, Megatrax, FullWerk Music, Liquid Cinema, Really Slow Motion, Warner Chappel, KPM, Sonoton and West One Music are doors worth knocking to.

Some name dropping I have seen mentionned here over the years.

Feel free to add to the list if other top-tiers libraries comes to mind.


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## gsilbers (May 23, 2015)

Greg @ Sat May 23 said:


> It really depends how comfortable you are with selling out, doing knock offs, and writing cookie cutter music.
> 
> If you tackle it unashamedly and don't mind using tons of loops, then you could get pretty successful in 1-2 years.
> 
> Not to say that library music is all [email protected]#t, it's just obvious that these shortcuts are very efficient for making $ at it.



true. 

also, if you have a library who asks you for music specific show. instead of doing random music that might work. light tension is not the same on a bravo tv show vs a discovery channel tv show. each show producers want a specific style of music to get a specific sound. 
those tracks get placed so there is more chance of getting placed. lot more. 

it also works if you make 1-4 tracks a day. i do about 1 track per day but cihllbot (member here) does like 4 a day i think. 
its all about templates, having a rythm bed you can use for several different tracks, etc. and learning how to work fast. which is something you learn. keycommands, knowing exaxtly what and when to do something in your DAW and so on. takes a while.


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## Greg (May 23, 2015)

Valérie_D @ Sat May 23 said:


> Well I don't devalue both approach but my goal is to get into top tier libraries, one well produced album at a time.



That I would say is the long road but also the best and most gratifying / ultimately rewarding route. 

You'll have to spend a lot of time on the craft to get to the level of the "big" libraries' composers for them to even consider your work. Or take the more involved approach of creating a unique sound / voice with your music that is marketable for licensing and different than the albums they already have on the table. That might catch their ear and get your work on their roster.


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## sleepy hollow (May 23, 2015)

Library work seems to be a lot like long-distance running. So in a way all you people are talking about "How to Run a Marathon", no?




Valérie_D @ Sat 23 May said:


> Sonoton



Just recently read that Sonoton's library features more than 100.000 tracks. Can't tell if that is very much (I'd guess it is), but I was wondering if you people think that at some point a certain library may be "saturated". Meaning that you might be able to get your tracks into that library, but no end-user is ever going to hear your track, because of the sheer mass of music represented by that library.
Is that a valid point?


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## Valérie_D (May 24, 2015)

I think it is.


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## Daryl (May 24, 2015)

sleepy hollow @ Sun May 24 said:


> Library work seems to be a lot like long-distance running. So in a way all you people are talking about "How to Run a Marathon", no?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Never mind one library. The whole market is saturated. There are a few things to take into consideration:

1) Because there is so much music available, you can't rely that a library track will have a minimum of 10 years usage, like the old days.
2) Everyone has the same samples, and uses them equally well, or badly, depending on your viewpoint.
3) If you are writing generic music, so is everyone else. You are relying on being the lucky one.
4) Tracks that are written to the current trend, whatever that is, will only have a life of a couple of years. Bear that in mind when you decide how much time and money to spend on them.
5) If you are going to compete, you have to take it seriously. Don't get into the mindset of not submitting your best tracks because it's only library. People who do that then turn round and say that there is no money to be made in library, whereas the ones who take it seriously can easily earn 6 figures a year without breaking into a sweat.
6) Sales is everything. If you place your music in a library that has no sales team, you are unlikely to earn much without doing the sales calls, emails yourself. In that case why not self Publish? You're doing all the work. All you need is a decent playback engine from your Website.
7) Listen to the tracks already present in the library before you decide to place your music. If it is not good quality you are risking that clients will hear that music before yours, and decide that the rest of the catalogue is equally bad.

Good luck...!

D


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## John Walker (May 24, 2015)

Daryl @ Sun May 24 said:


> Never mind one library. The whole market is saturated. There are a few things to take into consideration:
> 
> 1) Because there is so much music available, you can't rely that a library track will have a minimum of 10 years usage, like the old days.
> 2) Everyone has the same samples, and uses them equally well, or badly, depending on your viewpoint.
> ...



(1) Used to be 15 years and upwards.
(2) Everyone has a computer. Doesn't mean anything in terms of how good anyone is.
(3) Agree totally. Just check out AudioJungle and the like and look up corporate or motivation genres. :lol: :lol: 
(4) Trendy or 'trending' tracks are obviously based on the number of sales and re: points 3 and 4, just means everyone will copy you.
(5) You often read how people do anything upwards of 4 library tracks a day. That more or less covers it for me in terms quality.
(6) Also check and see what kind of distribution outlets they have around the world.
(7) That would cut out a lot of libraries, especially RF ones by the pure nature of the copying that goes on.
As a side note to anyone that favours RF. It's all about uploading loads of tracks. The more tracks you have the better it is. This may not be the same case for exclusive backend libraries.


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## Dean (May 24, 2015)

Valérie_D @ Sat May 23 said:


> Just a little survey to motivate (or unmotivate :D ) me since I have been completely immerssed in my library work in the last year, doing my music in my spare time.



Hey Valerie, 
Well Im not sure about you but I definitely found this whole thread demotivating,.are you also looking into film and tv scoring,ads,trailers themselves aswell as the libraries that cater for them too? ,..they're worth emersing yourself into aswell. D


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## Valérie_D (May 24, 2015)

Hi Dean,

I'm going to try to enter High-End libraries for maybe 2-3 years, composing furiously. I decided this last year, after my 19th scoring project which paid peanuts and when I realised that people truly believe that composers just need visibility and fresh water. Then again, I am sure many of you make a good living as scoring composers, I haven't found good collaborators for this just yet and libraries let me creative freedom for the moment.


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## Daryl (May 24, 2015)

Dean @ Sun May 24 said:


> Well Im not sure about you but I definitely found this whole thread demotivating...


Don't think of it as demotivating; think of it as a reality check. It is still possible to make a very good living out of writing library music. You just have to be sure that you're prepared to do what it takes in order to be successful.

D


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## lux (May 24, 2015)

Daryl made a lot of precious points here. 

I'd personally add that doing a strict distinction between "your music" and "libray writing" doesnt lead too far, at least in my opinion. Composing just on trends and current formats will probably help you get buried in a mess of younger and cruel composers arena. You'll prolly never have that attitude I've seen in a few kids out there. At times it gets me just scared.

So I'd say a good move is producing stuff that have your smell on it, considering editors points of view (i.e. making it interesting and usable from an editor).


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## sleepy hollow (May 24, 2015)

I agree, Daryl's "laundry list" is quite helpful. Yes, this thread isn't exactly the motivational pat on the back that some people are looking for, but let's be honest - wise sayings like _Go, get 'em, Tiger!_ or _Hang in there!_ aren't gonna cut it. I think in Valérie's case the situation is clear: She already set her mind and I'd say she knows what to expect.
So, like I mentioned above, it's not about how to get started, but how to make it through the first years. Persistence and stamina are key. 

I'm considering doing some library work, but I can't see myself doing this full-time. Top tier/high end sounds interesting, sure. Not sure if my music sounds interesting to them. I guess I'll find out soon enough. :mrgreen: 

Best of luck to all of us! :mrgreen:


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## Valérie_D (May 24, 2015)

lux @ Sun May 24 said:


> Daryl made a lot of precious points here.
> 
> I'd personally add that doing a strict distinction between "your music" and "libray writing" doesnt lead too far, at least in my opinion. Composing just on trends and current formats will probably help you get buried in a mess of younger and cruel composers arena. You'll prolly never have that attitude I've seen in a few kids out there. At times it gets me just scared.
> 
> So I'd say a good move is producing stuff that have your smell on it, considering editors points of view (i.e. making it interesting and usable from an editor).



I don't really have a choice but to compose everything with my smell on it and ignore trends as you mentionned, since I don't really know them and I am not up to date with them, except I am aware of the Braaaams, the hybrid-orchestral, the whimsical magic forest and the yukulele-clap-clap which caracterizes the corporate genre. 

For me, my strenght is compelling, emotional and cinematic melodies, so I sing in my cellphone about 2-3 tracks a day, anything which I find inspiring, and I produce them afterwards. I have about 120 tracks waiting :D

Like these :

https://soundcloud.com/val-rie-delaney/sertao-piano

https://soundcloud.com/val-rie-delaney/ ... er-version

...I admit, I must have followed the ''Amelie'' trend a little bit on this last one.


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## MichaelL (May 24, 2015)

Daryl @ Sun May 24 said:


> Dean @ Sun May 24 said:
> 
> 
> > Well Im not sure about you but I definitely found this whole thread demotivating...
> ...




But...the reality is that most writers who try, even if they're good, will not earning a living from library music alone. I think that except for a very lucky few, out of the flood trying, earning a living is very unlikely.


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## Stephen Rees (May 24, 2015)

I think this is one of the most in-depth threads we had on library music….

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=37911

For anyone feeling discouraged, I put all my encouragement into that thread and won't repeat it here.

To answer your original question Valérie, about 5 years from the first placement with my first library to earning a living 100% from it.


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## MichaelL (May 24, 2015)

Stephen Rees @ Sun May 24 said:


> I think this is one of the most in-depth threads we had on library music….
> 
> http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=37911
> 
> ...



I think that you are in a fortunate minority, Stephen, otherwise there would be tens of thousands of writers earning a living from library music, and I don't see evidence of that. 

I see evidence of thousands of writers making "some" money, but mostly very little.


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## sleepy hollow (May 24, 2015)

Stephen Rees @ Sun 24 May said:


> I think this is one of the most in-depth threads we had on library music….
> 
> http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=37911



I can recommend this thread. I learned quite a lot. From annoying bells, socks, and soup, to trust funds, and american vs british humor - this thread has it all. And while it certainly got hot in there, things were never really out of control. 

On a more serious note, I think it's great that so many forum members are willing to help others by investing quite an amount of time to answer lots and lots of often repetitive questions.


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## rgames (May 24, 2015)

The answer depends entirely on your personal circumstances. Do you have a family? Do you live in Europe/UK? What do you consider "a living"?

Here's my experience: it takes only a little bit of talent and only a little bit of work to make low five figures (USD). But the odds drop very quickly beyond that regardless of talent or networking. You either need to write a *lot* of music or get to know a *lot* of people or get lucky. There are many talented composers who never pass that threshold (and many with significantly less talent who do).

So, can you live on $20k a year? If so, it probably won't take that long. Do you need more? If so, it'll take longer.

Again, there's no single answer. Results vary widely and are determined by the match between need and luck.

A better approach, as hinted above, is to use library work as a piece of the puzzle. Do gigs. Teach. Market your CDs. Do a lot of the other things that professional musicians do to make money - there's no reason to tie your entire livelihood to a single income stream.

rgames


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## Valérie_D (May 24, 2015)

For me, making a living, as in I can quit my dayjob, would be around 25 000 $ a year, I live near Montréal, Canada.


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## Red (May 24, 2015)

Valérie. I really enjoyed the two pieces you posted.

Great playing too. Did you play them yourself?
(samples? or mic?)

Although I would think that for library music usage, piano music in general has somewhat of a limited usage and even less for talent, rather "just getting the mood right". 

I think ordinary listeners would think in two terms only.
Happy piano music, sad piano music.
and... they have enough of those, don't they?


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## Valérie_D (May 24, 2015)

Red @ Sun May 24 said:


> Valérie. I really enjoyed the two pieces you posted.
> 
> Great playing too. Did you play them yourself?
> (samples? or mic?)
> ...



From what I hear, they have enough of just about everything :D 

I'll take my chances with what I do best, I am aiming for several piano and cello pieces as well, like this one : https://soundcloud.com/val-rie-delaney/flying-high

I play the piano myself and use Ivory American D concert, glad you like the pieces!

For the moods, yes I think a bit in these terms but not only happy or sad, I try to evoke some different emotions: nostalgic, powerful, inspiring, overcoming a challenge, etc..


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## MichaelL (May 25, 2015)

Valérie_D @ Sun May 24 said:


> For me, making a living, as in I can quit my dayjob, would be around 25 000 $ a year, I live near Montréal, Canada.




That should be attainable. I read a post on the MLR, a few years back, where it took one writer with 500 tracks, 3 years to reach $50,000 US.

This was back in the day of re-titling, and he put the same tracks everywhere...Jingle Punks, ScoreKeepers, RF libraries.


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## Aaron Sapp (May 25, 2015)

I got my start doing production music about 11 years ago and have been working full-time in-house writing production music for almost two years. In that time I've had the chance to write in a lot of different genres and see what's reflected in the ASCAP statements... 

I will say, it is getting WAY harder now to get a piece of the pie with just how inundated the industry is. The good ol' days of frequent $60k survey checks is pretty much gone now. The number of albums/catalogs a distributor gets in a month is staggering -- hundreds and hundreds. 

So, definitely get in bed with a top-tier library if you can. But unless your stuff is outstanding, your chances are slim to none. What's outstanding? To me, it's: Relevance, editorially sound, unique and masterfully produced. Based on emails I've seen, there are so few composers that meet all those requirements. Like 1 out of 1000. There is a lot more competition now, but I still feel like 99% of the competition is producing mostly crap. But the 1% (which is still hundreds of composers) are dead serious about their stuff and really bring it. 

Solo piano/straight orchestral stuff will get you little to no money back. The usage is too specific and there's already a million composers doing that stuff. Once you start delving into more unique production techniques (cool percussion/percussive elements, manipulating audio, making it super edit-friendly), you'll stand out a bit more. Doing an album of awesome pop music will get you a far bigger return than an album of awesome solo piano/cello pieces. Just watch TV and see what's being used in promos, commercials and backgrounds. 

If you can shelve your artistic ego and and are fascinated by all genres (rock, pop, hip hop, indie, epic orchestral, electronic, etc.), you can do well. It'll take years, but it's possible. Can't solely entertain your artistic ideals with production music. Nobody gives a shit how much time you put into it -- all that matters is how useful/cool it is.


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## Valérie_D (May 25, 2015)

Aaron Sapp @ Mon May 25 said:


> If you can shelve your artistic ego and and are fascinated by all genres (rock, pop, hip hop, indie, epic orchestral, electronic, etc.), you can do well. It'll take years, but it's possible. Can't solely entertain your artistic ideals with production music. Nobody gives a shit how much time you put into it -- all that matters is how useful/cool it is.



I don't really have an artistic ego, I tried to do everything at ounce in the beginning, I composed in different genre but in the last 3 months, I called around 12 top-tiers libraries and they were really interested in piano and cello album, cinematic oriented music.


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## Dean (May 25, 2015)

Daryl @ Sun May 24 said:


> Dean @ Sun May 24 said:
> 
> 
> > Well Im not sure about you but I definitely found this whole thread demotivating...
> ...



Hey Daryl, 
thanks,I did'nt mean for myself I just meant in general that submitting cues by the hundreds and sometimes thousands,doing 4 a day,loops,covering all genres,tones,quirky,upbeat rock,edgy cute,..thats a competitive bloodbath!,..sounds like the last days of Rome!


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## Daryl (May 25, 2015)

Dean @ Mon May 25 said:


> Daryl @ Sun May 24 said:
> 
> 
> > Dean @ Sun May 24 said:
> ...


Fair enough, but people who take this sort of thing seriously don't do that. Maybe 3 tracks a week is average for the people I know who write library music, and are very successful at it. They also don't try to cover everything. That's a recipe for disaster.

D


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## MichaelL (May 25, 2015)

gsilbers @ Sat May 23 said:


> it also works if you make 1-4 tracks a day. i do about 1 track per day but cihllbot (member here) does like 4 a day i think.
> its all about templates, having a rythm bed you can use for several different tracks, etc. and learning how to work fast. which is something you learn. keycommands, knowing exaxtly what and when to do something in your DAW and so on. takes a while.



Why bother? That's like flipping burgers at McDonald's when what you wanted was to be a Chef.


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## kurtvanzo (May 29, 2015)

MichaelL @ Mon May 25 said:


> gsilbers @ Sat May 23 said:
> 
> 
> > it also works if you make 1-4 tracks a day. i do about 1 track per day but cihllbot (member here) does like 4 a day i think.
> ...



Actually, getting together templates and learning to work fast is not a problem, it's genius. Once you work out ways of getting quick (record ideas to your phone , keep templates of all your useful sounds, work out structure and voicing issues fast, hit record as much as possible) you have a better perspective to layer and mix, since you haven't run through the song a million times. Those that take too long are too burned out to mix or have any real perspective (which is why composers would hire a team in the past). In the 90's my music was all live musicans and although I loved it, it took too much time and money to produce one song- many songs stayed in demo phase because I knew they would cost too much to produce- shame. Yesterday I was humming a tune and it took 90 minutes for me to get it down, add all my layers , and do a complete 1st mix. I know this has made me a better writer because I don't have time to get hung up on a note or chord progression, and what comes out is purely my feelings at the moment, not an over-produced, over-worked masterpiece that took me too long to do and has lost it's original intent. Working fast is not just a way to make better money, it's a way to make better music and to be able to see what is working and what is not without all the pretense (It took me so long to get that right! -nuts to that). Just my humble opinion ....and years of long hours/ late nights in studios. :wink: Free at last!


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## zacnelson (Jun 3, 2015)

Daryl @ Sun May 24 said:


> Just recently read that Sonoton's library features more than 100.000 tracks. Can't tell if that is very much (I'd guess it is), but I was wondering if you people think that at some point a certain library may be "saturated". Meaning that you might be able to get your tracks into that library, but no end-user is ever going to hear your track, because of the sheer mass of music represented by that library.
> Is that a valid point?
> Never mind one library. The whole market is saturated. There are a few things to take into consideration:
> 
> ...



This is BRILLIANT advice Daryl… THANK YOU! I have no experience at all, just started doing work for hire library music the last few months. One thing you wrote that really resonated with me is that you MUST do your very BEST work, it's not a valid strategy to do heaps of mediocre cues and assume that they'll all get used. I'd rather do 4 times the work on ONE track than do 4 quick tracks that will get buried behind the better tracks in the library I'm writing for!!! Also one advantage of doing WFH is that you have to get your track `accepted' so there is no opportunity to drop your quality, they will just refuse my track.

Also I kinda like the fact that trends change. Right now I'm doing WFH in a very popular style which I believe will get tired in a year or so. That suits me, because then I can turn my attention to another style and broaden myself. But it sucks knowing I could be putting music out there that won't have a long shelf life.


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## sleepy hollow (Jul 2, 2015)

zacnelson said:


> Right now I'm doing WFH in a very popular style which I believe will get tired in a year or so. That suits me, because then I can turn my attention to another style and broaden myself. But it sucks knowing I could be putting music out there that won't have a long shelf life.


Yeah, probably hard to tell what brings in more money in the long run, too. I don't do any popular styles, but I can imagine that it can be a welcome change. So I guess if I had a knack for one the really popular styles, I'd go for it.


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## Waywyn (Jul 2, 2015)

To answer your initial question, to be fully able to live from just library music as a single person you should have something around 100-300 registered tracks floating around. Obviously the better the publishers, the lower the track count can be, hence the wide track count (100-300)


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## toomanynotes (Aug 28, 2015)

Hi, sorry but where's this thread? Can find it.. Pls advise.
Thanks


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## toomanynotes (Aug 28, 2015)

toomanynotes said:


> Hi, sorry but where's this thread? Can find it.. Pls advise.
> http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=37911
> 
> Not working
> Thanks


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## sleepy hollow (Aug 28, 2015)

toomanynotes said:


> Hi, sorry but where's this thread? Can find it.. Pls advise.


Did a search and found it, here you go: http://vi-control.net/community/threads/music-libraries.37911/


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## toomanynotes (Aug 28, 2015)

sleepy hollow said:


> Did a search and found it, here you go: http://vi-control.net/community/threads/music-libraries.37911/


 Thank you so much!!


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## nutotech (Aug 31, 2015)

The fine line between being de-motivotional and being realistic is certainly a fine one these days. For the better part of the past 25 years a good portion of my income came from writing production music. Back in the days when there was up front cash. 

Today? 2015? So few libraries paying any upfront money! And the competition, as stated by many of you, is fierce. 

The name of the game IMHO is cranking out as much stuff as you can for as many libraries that will take your tracks. Not to beat their drum but, have made some good contacts via TAXI. Thought I might quit after a few years but there is always a new boutique library pitching (primarily) reality shows. It's all about placements and waiting for your ASCAP or BMI statement. 

Do have a few movie trailer tracks with a specialized library that does pay synch fees, but haven't seen anything yet. But there's always hope, right?


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