# Favorite Physical Modeling VSTi in 2021?



## TonalDynamics (Jun 21, 2021)

Afternoon lads,

I've been delving into the world of granular synthesis of late, trying to discover the 'zen' of what its true musical possibilities are, and it got me wondering if there were any new P.M. offerings out there that have flown under my radar (I'm a big fan of AAS, but have yet to try Chromaphone 3, been using 2 for years).

What are some of your favorite/more recent physical modeling instruments (synth, acoustic simulation or otherwise)?

Cheers!


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## keepitsimple (Jun 21, 2021)

Aside from SWAM (which are a very exciting exception), I have yet to find a physically modeled acoustic instrument that my ears can digest....


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## Alchemedia (Jun 21, 2021)

Chromaphone 3, Plasmonic, Kaivo, Mutable Instruments Rings, Expressive E Noisy.


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## wxyz (Jun 21, 2021)

Respiro


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## DivingInSpace (Jun 21, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> Mutable Instruments Rings


Nice to see some modular gear on here. I am hopefully going to DIY one in he near future


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## doctoremmet (Jun 21, 2021)

Rhizomatic Plasmonic 
Chromaphone 3
Madrona Labs KAIVO

And using some modeling principles in MSoundFactory and Voltage Modular patches


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## Alchemedia (Jun 21, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Rhizomatic Plasmonic
> Chromaphone 3
> Madrona Labs KAIVO


Great minds think alike!


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## Trash Panda (Jun 21, 2021)

IK Multimedia MODO Bass and MODO Drums have allowed me to free up hard drive space that used to be dedicated to bass and drum libraries.

Aaron Venture Infinite Brass and Woodwinds are also awesome if using a combination of samples and physical modeling is allowed.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 9, 2021)

wxyz said:


> Respiro


Bought it this friday. Learned Nusofting’s Luigi (Liqih) was involved in Respiro’s development. Remembered how I liked Modelonia. Went to the website and I bought their new Sinmad. Will try it and report back here


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## doctoremmet (Aug 9, 2021)

Also keen to find out if @Troels Folmann is applying pysical modeling principles in the realtime rendering of acoustic instruments under the hood of Soundpaint.


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## Wes Antczak (Aug 9, 2021)

Korg Prophecy.


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## Markrs (Aug 9, 2021)

MODO Drums and Bass
Pianoteq
SWAM instruments

Love them all, though I still think SWAM as a bit of a way to go but the others are incredibly realistic, and for me can replace using samples


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## doctoremmet (Aug 9, 2021)

Wes Antczak said:


> Korg Prophecy.


I did notice that - tempting… *)

*) assuming you meant the recently released polyphonic plugin version


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## doctoremmet (Aug 9, 2021)

Is my assumption correct that the only way to ever play Friktion is to subscribe to a 19.99/m Reason+?

Edit: wrong assumption. They’ve just hidden the store really well.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 9, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Rhizomatic Plasmonic
> Chromaphone 3
> Madrona Labs KAIVO
> 
> And using some modeling principles in MSoundFactory and Voltage Modular patches


I am definitely adding REAKTOR to my list. Having fun with some really old ensembles (Chet Singer stuff) and this one:


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## AceAudioHQ (Aug 9, 2021)

Modo bass and drum


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## doctoremmet (Aug 9, 2021)




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## Markrs (Aug 9, 2021)

I love Reaktor but struggle to find the time to really have a good play with it. You could argue it is too deep of a synth, which becomes a barrier to many of us using it, which is a real shame.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 9, 2021)

I hear you. But boy… is it fun once you dive in. I sometimes wonder how REAKTOR has not really become THE platform for physical modelling? But I bet it has something to do with what you’re saying… complexity.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 9, 2021)

3:35…


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## Monkberry (Aug 9, 2021)

MODO Bass
SWAM String Bundle
SWAM Woodwind Bundle


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## anjwilson (Aug 9, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> I am definitely adding REAKTOR to my list. Having fun with some really old ensembles (Chet Singer stuff) and this one:



It's amazing how good the Chet Singer Reaktor stuff is, and that he just gives it away for free. That Silverwood Flute...


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## Markrs (Aug 9, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> 3:35…



Sounds amazing!


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## doctoremmet (Aug 9, 2021)

Markrs said:


> Sounds amazing!


Free… That’s REAKTOR. Stuff that’s been there for over a decade. Hardly anyone seems to (still) use it. Yet it is excellent and free.


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## muziksculp (Aug 9, 2021)

SWAM Solo Strings
SWAM Solo Woodwinds
SWAM Solo Brass (although I don't have them). 

I don't think AV Infinite Brass, and Infinite Woodwinds qualify as Physically Modeled instruments.

I also don't know if Sample Modeling's Solo & Ens. Strings, and their Solo Brass qualify as Physically Modeled instruments. or do they ?


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## doctoremmet (Aug 9, 2021)

I agree, and would call Infinite series “heavily scripted sample based instruments on the verge of being modelled”.

Some of SWAM could also be considered borderline sampled/modelled, the SWAM-W engine partly relies on samples. I bet the other SWAM engines still use IRs to a certain extent?


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## Trash Panda (Aug 9, 2021)

So does that mean MODO drums are disqualified since the cymbals are sample based? 

Who is the resident member of the Physical Modeling Police?


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## doctoremmet (Aug 9, 2021)




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## doctoremmet (Aug 9, 2021)

Yeah I know. Send the spelling police


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## D Halgren (Aug 14, 2021)

Just found these guys. Everyone buy this so they will keep producing instruments! Paging @doctoremmet


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## doctoremmet (Aug 14, 2021)

I’ve beta tested the Windows version. Interesting synth.


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## D Halgren (Aug 14, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> I’ve beta tested the Windows version. Interesting synth.


I'm really enjoying the gnarly bass sounds that can come out of this thing! It very much reminds me of some of Johann Johansson's tones.


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## Markrs (Aug 14, 2021)

D Halgren said:


> Just found these guys. Everyone buy this so they will keep producing instruments! Paging @doctoremmet



Some of the sounds demoed do some very interesting









Derailer - Physical Audio


Derailer is a physical modelling system built from 3 basic elements. Strings which can be plucked or bowed, metal bars which can be pitched or act as resonators, and nonlinear springs which can be used to connect resonators together to form a network. Derailer uses finite-difference time-domain...




physicalaudio.co.uk





Physical modelling system​Derailer is a physical modelling system built from 3 basic elements. Strings which can be plucked or bowed, metal bars which can be pitched or act as resonators, and nonlinear springs which can be used to connect resonators together to form a network. Derailer uses finite-difference time-domain numerical modelling of these elements to produce sound.

Driver system​Derailer uses a driver and resonator setup to provide a flexible system with a wide range of sounds. The excitation signal can be a sawtooth waveform, a plucked or bowed string, a pitched bar, or a striker. This thens passes through an EQ section and low-pass resonant filter, a diode clipper, and then a delay or gate. The resulting signal is then used to drive one of the bars of the resonator network.

Resonator network​The resonator is built from 5 metal bars which can be connected together by up to 10 nonlinear springs. The spring positions can be moved around to change the resonance of the network. Each bar has controls for rigidity, sustain, tone, and mass. Each spring has variable stiffness, decay and nonlinearity.


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## lychee (Aug 14, 2021)

Hello.

I am one of the biggest fans in the world of this technology, which I mainly use to overcome the lack of flexibility or realism that some acoustic plugins based on samples can have.

My favorites for physical modeling are (I feel like I'm at the Oscars ):

- Friktion (my favorite of the faves):
This plugin is a little gem for everything related to strings and even more (violin, guitar, plucked, bowed... nothing scares him).




- Modo Bass:
It's "real" bass and in every detail, frankly if you can't make this plugin sound the way you want, it's because you have toes instead of your fingers hands. 




- Chromaphone:
There are good products from AAS, Lounge Lizard EP-4, String Studio VS-3, Objeq Delay ... (on the other hand Strum GS-2 is not terrible).
But if we were to buy one of their products, it would be Chromaphone.
This is a very good plugin for creating percussive and realistic acoustic material, although it is able to go into other fields.




-Kong:
Like Friktion, Kong is one of the instruments going through the DAW Reason, or through the rack plugin.
The physical modeling module of Kong is in a way an equivalent to Modo Drum, which is why I hesitate to take Modo Drum for fear of having a duplicate.

- Arturia V collection:
The fundamentalists of the piano will surely make me burn alive on a guillotine on which I will have been hanged.
But this suite of plugins has pianos, electric pianos, organs ... all physically modeled and sounding very good (at least to my ears).




Here is one of my latest work on a mockup from the Carnival Row series, which is 90% modeled by Friktion, Chromaphone and Kong (only the female's choir is sampled).

This is all my collection for physical modeling and I regret not having more for lack of developers in this sector.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 15, 2021)

Hi @lychee - Nice list. Couple of quick remarks.

- Arturia Piano V. Absolutely! That's why the glass and metal piano tones are so much fun 

- I recently bought IMOXplus Respiro. A wind synth, not tweakable - so maybe ‘a collection of physically modelled presets’ would be a better descriptor - but very cool if you’re a wind / BC / EWI player (and maybe a cool collection of “artificial ethno wind sounds” to complement your WiVi)

- I already had NUSofting’s Modelonia and last week went and bought his new Sinmad synth (slightly less PM based, more of a VA architecture with a bunch of interesting delay lines). I recommend you check the simpler free Sinnah. Modelonia on sale can sometimes be $25 and is a really good PM synth

- Finally… I am convinced you’d LOVE Plasmonic!


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## DoubleTap (Aug 15, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Bought it this friday. Learned Nusofting’s Luigi (Liqih) was involved in Respiro’s development. Remembered how I liked Modelonia. Went to the website and I bought their new Sinmad. Will try it and report back here


What did you make of Sinmad? I found the feedback in the delay matrix fascinating. I can't think of another synth that can create the controllable chaos of guitar feedback like that. Although I expect there probably are some.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 15, 2021)

DoubleTap said:


> What did you make of Sinmad? I found the feedback in the delay matrix fascinating. I can't think of another synth that can create the controllable chaos of guitar feedback like that.


Ha! Yes absolutely. I think it is a unique synth and those feedback tones are a big selling point. They can be heard in many of the One Synth Challenge tunes.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 15, 2021)

D Halgren said:


> Just found these guys. Everyone buy this so they will keep producing instruments! Paging @doctoremmet



Bought! As I said I beta tested it but then forgot to do much with it. Their reverbs seem cool too.


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## D Halgren (Aug 15, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Bought! As I said I beta tested it but then forgot to do much with it. Their reverbs seem cool too.


I played with it all yesterday and it's great! I did send them a few suggestions such as a mod matrix to be able to assign more parameters to MPE, etc. I find that with a light touch the sound really blooms and sings. Love it!

I picked up both the reverbs, too. The plate can be resized in real time which is pretty interesting. I plan on testing the spring against Twangstrom today.

All In all, I really like what they are doing and hope that they continue. I saw on their Twitter that they have a string instrument that they are working on, and it's not orchestral. It sounds more like those handmade horror machines that @charlieclouser would use.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 15, 2021)

D Halgren said:


> I played with it all yesterday and it's great! I did send them a few suggestions such as a mod matrix to be able to assign more parameters to MPE, etc. I find that with a light touch the sound really blooms and sings. Love it!
> 
> I picked up both the reverbs, too. The plate can be resized in real time which is pretty interesting. I plan on testing the spring against Twangstrom today.
> 
> All In all, I really like what they are doing and hope that they continue. I saw on their Twitter that they have a string instrument that they are working on, and it's not orchestral. It sounds more like those handmade horror machines that @charlieclouser would use.


Cool. Checking the reverbs!


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## D Halgren (Aug 15, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Cool. Checking the reverbs!


And now I'm looking into SinMad 😉


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## doctoremmet (Aug 15, 2021)

D Halgren said:


> And now I'm looking into SinMad 😉


Definitely grab Sinnah first and test that a bit.


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## D Halgren (Aug 15, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Definitely grab Sinnah first and test that a bit.


Isn't there a demo mode? I also think that Noisetar sounds very interesting.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 15, 2021)

D Halgren said:


> Isn't there a demo mode? I also think that Noisetar sounds very interesting.








✅


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## robgb (Aug 15, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Is my assumption correct that the only way to ever play Friktion is to subscribe to a 19.99/m Reason+?
> 
> Edit: wrong assumption. They’ve just hidden the store really well.


I downloaded the demo. Not really impressed. It sounds like the Tinker Toy version of a sample library.


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## lychee (Aug 15, 2021)

robgb said:


> I downloaded the demo. Not really impressed. It sounds like the Tinker Toy version of a sample library.


Friktion can't be judged over a short demo period, it can easily sound bad if you don't take the time to master it.
I have to admit it's hard to get it sounded right, but the material is there, and we can take it a lot further than the sample can.
But hey, that remains my opinion and I respect yours, to each his appreciation.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 15, 2021)

robgb said:


> I downloaded the demo. Not really impressed. It sounds like the Tinker Toy version of a sample library.


Maybe. But its aim is to synthesize sound. Which happens to be my aim as well haha. I spend way more time with synths than with samples. So for sampleheads, I get your remark. Might as well grab a killer cello sample. For synth heads like myself, it is exactly the TINKER element that makes Friktion attractive


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## Marcus Millfield (Aug 15, 2021)

Don't forget Organteq.

I use the SWAM brass a lot for layering with sampled orchestral libraries, because the SWAM instruments do attacks way better than most sample libraries. Also to dial in some upper harmonics in trumpets and for when I want some bigger, more pronounced vibrato's.


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## D Halgren (Aug 15, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Definitely grab Sinnah first and test that a bit.


Starting to figure out SinMad. It is a noisy beast!


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## doctoremmet (Aug 15, 2021)

D Halgren said:


> Starting to figure out SinMad. It is a noisy beast!


Cool one huh?


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## D Halgren (Aug 15, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Cool one huh?


At first I was a little disappointed. Then I started digging in. I don't think I could get these sounds anywhere else. Plus on kvr he said he plans to add MPE. That is right up my alley!


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## doctoremmet (Aug 15, 2021)

D Halgren said:


> At first I was a little disappointed. Then I started digging in. I don't think I could get these sounds anywhere else. Plus on kvr he said he plans to add MPE. That is right up my alley!


Seaboard? I have one and the blocks. Cool stuff to mess around with. I’m deep into PM lately. Even eyeing the Korg Prophecy vst (mainly for historic reasons though). MPE can be really cool. It works great with Plasmonic.


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## D Halgren (Aug 15, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Seaboard? I have one and the blocks. Cool stuff to mess around with. I’m deep into PM lately. Even eyeing the Korg Prophecy vst (mainly for historic reasons though). MPE can be really cool. It works great with Plasmonic.


Yes, Seaboard 49, plus I just got a Linnstrument. I'm about to go down the SWAM hole! So much fun to be had!

Plasmonic is amazing! That was a great buy. Apparently there is going to be an update soon.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 15, 2021)

Whoa! Linnstrument! Nice…


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## D Halgren (Aug 15, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Whoa! Linnstrument! Nice…


Sweetwater credit card always getting me in trouble 😉


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## doctoremmet (Aug 15, 2021)

D Halgren said:


> Sweetwater credit card always getting me in trouble 😉


My crystal ball sees an Osmose in both our futures… but my card says no…


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## D Halgren (Aug 15, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> My crystal ball sees an Osmose in both our futures… but my card says no…


That used to be my ringtone 🤣


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## D Halgren (Aug 15, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> My crystal ball sees an Osmose in both our futures… but my card says no…


I'm currently waiting for the Sensal Morph to be back in stock, but I just want to use as 4 X/Y's for u-he synths.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 15, 2021)




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## D Halgren (Aug 15, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


>



Pretty interesting speech.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 23, 2021)




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## doctoremmet (Aug 23, 2021)




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## doctoremmet (Aug 23, 2021)

So… does anyone have a clue where one can purchase IRCAM Modalys? As usual the academic origins of products like these shows… a gazillion papers by a gazillion PhD’s but good luck finding one page that actually resembles something with basic pricing / purchase options….


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## doctoremmet (Aug 23, 2021)

Maybe I’ll get IRCAMAX2 for Live first…






Anyone try this? ^


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## doctoremmet (Aug 23, 2021)

Probably be a cool project to control with my Push.


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## Markrs (Aug 23, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> So… does anyone have a clue where one can purchase IRCAM Modalys? As usual the academic origins of products like these shows… a gazillion papers by a gazillion PhD’s but good luck finding one page that actually resembles something with basic pricing / purchase options….


It looks like a type of programming language library to use in OpenMusic or Max/MSP






Modalys | Ircam Forum







forum.ircam.fr










OpenMusic | Ircam Forum







forum.ircam.fr







Modalys - Getting Started








Welcome to Modalys! - Modalys







support.ircam.fr


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## Markrs (Aug 23, 2021)

@doctoremmet


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## Markrs (Aug 23, 2021)

For more intelligent people than me you can compose with OpenMusic


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## Markrs (Aug 23, 2021)

@doctoremmet

go to:






Modalys | Ircam Forum







forum.ircam.fr





Click the button login to download, register on the next screen and fill in the details. Once you have registered and confirmed your email. do back to the modals page and you will see






Download and you now have Modalys for Max/MSP

I hope this helps Temme


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## doctoremmet (Aug 23, 2021)

Markrs said:


> It looks like a type of programming language library to use in OpenMusic or Max/MSP


It is. It is very cool. Just couldn’t find the purchase info! Thanks Mark!!


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## Markrs (Aug 23, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> It is. It is very cool. Just couldn’t find the purchase info! Thanks Mark!!


No worries, I hope you have fun playing with it


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## doctoremmet (Aug 23, 2021)

So it is basically free? Nice.


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## Markrs (Aug 23, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> So it is basically free? Nice.


Yep totally free! Well unless I missed something as I don’t have Ableton to try it


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## doctoremmet (Aug 23, 2021)

Awesome. Nice to fool around with some time. Thanks mate!!


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## CATDAD (Aug 23, 2021)

lychee said:


> But if we were to buy one of their products, it would be Chromaphone.
> This is a very good plugin for creating percussive and realistic acoustic material, although it is able to go into other fields.


Chromaphone is incredibly flexible and can create some truly ethereal sounds with elements of reality, BUT I will say it still being a single core physical modeling plugin reeeeeally hurts with complex multi-voice patches!


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## lychee (Aug 24, 2021)

doctoremmet​
My love for physical modeling was born with Modalys, since I saw these videos.
It's not new, but it still sounds better than AM's Swam instruments (aside from the audio quality of those old videos).







I wonder why IRCAM has never released a product as a multi-platform plugin already done with known instrument modeling?
Too bad to have put that only on Ableton Live and in the form of modular synth, which will put off more than one, and of which I am part.

Markrs​Your videos above are certainly interesting, but not mastering English I went a little way to hear if there were any sound examples and I was disappointed.
How can we titled "Example: OpenMusic and Harmonic Material" and "Modalys 01 - The Plucked String Radiation" and hear no sound as an example?


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## Markrs (Aug 24, 2021)

lychee said:


> doctoremmet​
> My love for physical modeling was born with Modalys, since I saw these videos.
> It's not new, but it still sounds better than AM's Swam instruments (aside from the audio quality of those old videos).
> 
> ...



Both are YouTube playlist and deal mainly with the programming aspect rather than the sound. However I only skimmed through the first videos.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 24, 2021)

lychee said:


> I wonder why IRCAM has never released a product as a multi-platform plugin already done with known instrument modeling?


IRCAM is mainly a research institute and it shows. But as a Live adept I already own Max so I’m going to do a deep dive. Modalys does sound excellent and has been on the scene for decades!


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## doctoremmet (Aug 24, 2021)

@lychee I think you may enjoy Physical Audio’s Derailer though. Those guys are PhD’s and researchers as well, so I expect them to release well researched and good sounding instruments in the near future


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## doctoremmet (Aug 26, 2021)




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## D Halgren (Sep 6, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Bought it this friday. Learned Nusofting’s Luigi (Liqih) was involved in Respiro’s development. Remembered how I liked Modelonia. Went to the website and I bought their new Sinmad. Will try it and report back here


I just bought Respiro and I am so impressed! I'm busy trying out different set-ups of controlling it and it responds so we'll to MPE or breath. I'm just going to start buying everything that you suggest 😂


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## doctoremmet (Sep 6, 2021)

D Halgren said:


> I just bought Respiro and I am so impressed! I'm busy trying out different set-ups of controlling it and it responds so we'll to MPE or breath. I'm just going to start buying everything that you suggest 😂


Yes. Cool thing is: @Rudy Verpaele just joined the forum, so we’ll be able to interact with him on here. Respiro is fantastic isn’t it? I feel it truly is the way more advanced spiritual successor to the good old VSL1. I am glad you like it.


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## D Halgren (Sep 7, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Yes. Cool thing is: @Rudy Verpaele just joined the forum, so we’ll be able to interact with him on here. Respiro is fantastic isn’t it? I feel it truly is the way more advanced spiritual successor to the good old VSL1. I am glad you like it.


It really is so good and I am very excited about his new breath controller. Good to see you here @Rudy Verpaele !


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## doctoremmet (Sep 9, 2021)

imagine


A playful world of unknown acoustic sounds




www.expressivee.com







AAS coop!


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## KarlHeinz (Sep 9, 2021)

Thanks a lot for the video, really strange that there is no video on the page. As the sounddemos are really not very impressive (physical modelling ?????) this video gives a far better impression.

But I still wonder if this will give me anything I dont already have in so many different ways.....(bells and harps and mallets and kalimbas and.....).

I have to say I once bought the violine in a deal from expressivee, tried one time and forget about it. What I have to admit: I dont use MPE or any other kind of "expressive" controller so my interest is more or less in the sounds.

Thats why I at least cancelled Respiro (I had some other problems and could not really get it to work like I wanted to, very nice and accomodating support by the way, but wherever Luigi is involved  ....) but this is really, really another thing. Respiro in general has really EVRYTHING you can dream about in case of physical modelling.

This video (and the exporation from Mike Pensini who really gives all  ) is I think really the best you can get out of it but lightyears away from somthing like Respiro.


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## lychee (Sep 9, 2021)

AAS is working with Expressive E to make an instrument even better than theirs.
I feel silly now with my Chromaphone (even if it's still an excellent plugin).


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## doctoremmet (Sep 9, 2021)

That video comvinces you it is better than Chromaphone? Because I don’t feel like that is the case at all…


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## KarlHeinz (Sep 9, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> That video comvinces you it is better than Chromaphone? Because I don’t feel like that is the case at all…


Me definitely not. I was thinking the same: what will this one give me that Chromaphone 3 does not already have, especially in case of sounds. The expressive playability options I dont use might be something else.


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## doctoremmet (Sep 9, 2021)

I think we’re on the same page there. But still I was excited to see yet another contender arrive on the scene. It does sound like a properly expressive synth. But Chromaphone owners likely will not get very much extra mileage out of it.


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## doctoremmet (Sep 9, 2021)




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## doctoremmet (Sep 9, 2021)

Again - like with Noisy - no MPE. Which weirds me out.


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## lychee (Sep 10, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> That video comvinces you it is better than Chromaphone? Because I don’t feel like that is the case at all…


Finally no, I (once again) spoke without knowing, I was fooled by the mention MPE, but Chromaphone also has a macro part asignable to this kind of controller.
There is still the "mseg" part which does not exist in Chromaphone, but other than that, on closer inspection it seems that Imagine is a simplified version of Chromaphone.


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## doctoremmet (Sep 10, 2021)

lychee said:


> There is still the "mseg" part which does not exist in Chromaphone


This is true. And it does sound GOOD, they’ve managed to create a bunch of really expressive and beautiful patches. Overall I think it is a pretty compelling little synth, that sounds good. I’m on the fence however if it really adds something to the ones I already own. A part of me wants Noisy and this one, but the lack of MPE capabilities combined with the pretty steep price has put the idea on hold (several times now).


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## lychee (Sep 10, 2021)

I like the principle of this kind of instrument or rather than stories of triangle, square, saw, noise, I have physical elements that speak to me a lot more.
I would be able to create patches more easily on that than on any other synth, and with a lot more expressiveness.


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## Technostica (Sep 10, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> This is true. And it does sound GOOD, they’ve managed to create a bunch of really expressive and beautiful patches. Overall I think it is a pretty compelling little synth, that sounds good. I’m on the fence however if it really adds something to the ones I already own. A part of me wants Noisy and this one, but the lack of MPE capabilities combined with the pretty steep price has put the idea on hold (several times now).


It was on sale when I looked at it yesterday.
They have a lot of stuff on sale and I think it was 40% off.


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## doctoremmet (Sep 10, 2021)

Technostica said:


> It was on sale when I looked at it yesterday.
> They have a lot of stuff on sale and I think it was 40% off.


I know. Even €80 x 2 adds up  but you’re right: stuff is on sale at the moment. Thx!

Edit: I MAY just hit buy and get Imagine. Lychee just HAD to point out those MSEGS didn’t he, hahaha?


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## R. Naroth (Sep 10, 2021)

Markrs said:


> MODO Drums and Bass
> Pianoteq
> SWAM instruments
> 
> Love them all, though I still think SWAM as a bit of a way to go but the others are incredibly realistic, and for me can replace using samples


@Markrs This is my list too (I don’t own MODO Drums). I’ve been even able to pull off small SWAM string sections for a project. I also like Friktion for its sounds— very musical and mixes well. Chromaphone is interesting but there is something off about it or I haven't figured it out yet. Pianoteq is unbelievably good.


----------



## doctoremmet (Sep 10, 2021)

Anyone use a Touché SE in this crowd? Somehow it ended up in my cart… How well does Lié work? I read somewhere that it doesn’t properly work with vst3 plugins?


----------



## Tatiana Gordeeva (Sep 10, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Anyone use a Touché SE in this crowd? Somehow it ended up in my cart… How well does Lié work? I read somewhere that it doesn’t properly work with vst3 plugins?


I also have one in my cart for a while now. Still on the fence. 

They say "Lié will only host VST2 64bit instruments, no VST effects, no VST3 format." BUT _maybe_ there a way around this limitation by hosting through DDMF MetaPlugin. I use it for other things and it's a powerful and absolutely great tool and Christian, the developper, is very cooperative!


----------



## doctoremmet (Sep 10, 2021)

I will sleep on it, but ever since I got Arché I’ve been meaning to hop on the bandwagon. I always kind of fear the day the tech will somehow disappear again, a bit like ROLI. But then again, I may have had fun in the mean time 

I share the same worries Tatiana. But as long as I can use it with rhe Expressive E stuff and some Kontakt libs I guess I’m fine.


----------



## doctoremmet (Sep 10, 2021)

Metaplugin looks nice. So you’d use it to wrap vst3 plugins and have them appear as vst2 ones, before wrapping those in Lié. Higher levels of Matrushka!


----------



## doctoremmet (Sep 10, 2021)




----------



## CGR (Sep 10, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Anyone use a Touché SE in this crowd? Somehow it ended up in my cart… How well does Lié work? I read somewhere that it doesn’t properly work with vst3 plugins?


I bought a Touché SE in January this year and have had a lot of fun exploring the accompanying Lié patches as well as the Helium expansion pack. I've mapped a few Kontakt instruments (Cinematique Klang) within Lié and all has worked well. It's a real joy to manipulate the sounds in real time, with some very unexpected results and huge sounds. Opens up a new way of musical-thinking for me.
PS: Using this with AU plugins within Logic.


----------



## doctoremmet (Sep 10, 2021)

CGR said:


> I bought a Touché SE in January this year and have had a lot of fun exploring the accompanying Lié patches as well as the Helium expansion pack. I've mapped a few Kontakt instruments (Cinematique Klang) within Lié and all has worked well. It's a real joy to manipulate the sounds in real time, with some very unexpected results and huge sounds. Opens up a new way of musical-thinking for me.
> PS: Using this with AU plugins within Logic.


Thanks Craig. Coming from you that means a LOT. Definitely adds a couple of + signs to my list of pros and cons.


----------



## doctoremmet (Sep 10, 2021)

Anyone use a Touché in conjunction with their TEControl2 BBC? Okay - I know that’s pushing it


----------



## Technostica (Sep 10, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> I know. Even €80 x 2 adds up  but you’re right: stuff is on sale at the moment. Thx!
> 
> Edit: I MAY just hit buy and get Imagine. Lychee just HAD to point out those MSEGS didn’t he, hahaha?


Well, I was going to say Doc, you don't have to buy purchases in pairs, mono purchases are allowed unless you are stocking a VST Arc?


----------



## Tatiana Gordeeva (Sep 10, 2021)

While we're discussing weird controllers... Has anyone ever used a SpaceMouse from 3Dconnexion as a music controller?

My hubby has one for 3D work and it's fantastic! It has 6 degrees of freedom (6DoF) so you can push, pull, twist or tilt it in any direction. One only needs some MIDI linking to make it control many parameters all at once or separately.

Edit: not such a stupid idea after all: https://www.elektronauts.com/t/3dco...pressive-midi-controller-software-idea/110963


----------



## doctoremmet (Sep 10, 2021)

This is also true haha. You say a lot of true things today.


----------



## Tatiana Gordeeva (Sep 10, 2021)

Technostica said:


> Well, I was going to say Doc, you don't have to buy purchases in pairs, mono purchases are allowed *unless you are stocking a VST Arc? *


You mean this one?


----------



## doctoremmet (Sep 10, 2021)

Tatiana Gordeeva said:


> You mean this one?


A piece of software I’m sure I’ll end up with because I’m running out of picks in the groupbuy, lol


----------



## doctoremmet (Sep 10, 2021)

I think I’m going to use it to make all my physically modelled instruments sound extra good in my room. I hear it releases a pigeon that flies around your room, and comes back as soon as it doesn’t like certain reflections. Once it is all fine, the pigeon flies away and you’ll never see it again.


----------



## Tatiana Gordeeva (Sep 10, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> A piece of software I’m sure I’ll end up with because I’m running out of picks in the groupbuy, lol


It is fine. Used it for years but then switched to Sonarworks because of their additional headphone correction support. But ARC is ok too (for speakers).


----------



## Tatiana Gordeeva (Sep 10, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> I think I’m going to use it to make all my physically modelled instruments sound extra good in my room. I hear it releases a pigeon that flies around your room, and comes back as soon as it doesn’t like certain reflections. Once it is all fine, the pigeon flies away and you’ll never see it again.


That was version 1.0 ! 
Version 3.0 now uses a bat, much more precise and doesn't hit the walls when it's dark!


----------



## doctoremmet (Sep 10, 2021)

Tatiana Gordeeva said:


> That was version 1.0 !
> Version 3.0 now uses a bat, much more precise and doesn't hit the walls when it's dark!


I haven’t read Bible v3.0 yet. I guess I stopped my subscription before the update!


----------



## Tatiana Gordeeva (Sep 10, 2021)

Version 2.0 failed and was skipped completely.
They tried to use vampire bats but they couldn't see _any_ reflections


----------



## Markrs (Sep 10, 2021)

Chris at Implied Music has also review Expressive E's Imagine.


----------



## doctoremmet (Sep 10, 2021)

I bought three synths today. Oops. Ableton’s OctoCell. Imagine. And while I was there somehow Noisy fell in my cart too. This weekend will be… synthy.


----------



## Markrs (Sep 10, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> I bought three synths today. Oops. Ableton’s OctoCell. Imagine. And while I was there somehow Noisy fell in my cart too. This weekend will be… synthy.


I like the sound of Imagine. It looks fun, but I did agree with Chris' review based on what I could hear.


----------



## gamma-ut (Sep 10, 2021)

Now may not be the time to mention that Physical Audio's metal basher Derailer is on sale (30% off) for a while: €90 until the end of September.









Derailer - Physical Audio


Derailer is a physical modelling system built from 3 basic elements. Strings which can be plucked or bowed, metal bars which can be pitched or act as resonators, and nonlinear springs which can be used to connect resonators together to form a network. Derailer uses finite-difference time-domain...




physicalaudio.co.uk





As I already have Chromaphone 3, I'm probably going to give Imagine the swerve. I do have Noisy and it does work well with a Touché but I think I can get what I want by loading Chromaphone into Lié and using the Touché or the Linnstrument (which is also pretty good for "hitting things and then warping/bending them" instruments). The MSEGs in Imagine aren't that big a deal for me.


----------



## RedDot (Sep 10, 2021)

It's not a VST per se, but the award must go to IRCAM's Modalys.


----------



## doctoremmet (Sep 10, 2021)

I beta tested Derailer and recently bought it. Fantastic synth as well. I agree with Mark and you Gamma: for me the attraction was mainly that Imagine appears to marry Chromaphone with String Studio in a sense + MSEGS and a fresh new UI. I may also get the Touché. So all in all I decided to go all in. It may very well be a little bit redundant in my setup. But I have to say I like it so far.


----------



## doctoremmet (Sep 10, 2021)

RedDot said:


> It's not a VST per se, but the award must go to IRCAM's Modalys.


Yes. I have also just got that one. Very well thought out architecture, running it in MAX. But very much geared to the academic synthesist and not the funk-band-keyboardist-turned-DAW-musician


----------



## gamma-ut (Sep 10, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> I beta tested Derailer and recently bought it. Fantastic synth as well. I agree with Mark and you Gamma: for me the attraction was mainly that Imagine appears to marry Chromaphone with String Studio in a sense + MSEGS and a fresh new UI. I may also get the Touché. So all in all I decided to go all in. It may very well be a little bit redundant in my setup. But I have to say I like it so far.


Noisy works very well with the Touché. The design of the Touché is deceptively simple but really effective in what it does.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 10, 2021)

They're instrument plug-ins, not VSTis!

OOH!


----------



## Markrs (Sep 11, 2021)

Jef Gibbons has also done a review of Expressive E's Imagine


----------



## doctoremmet (Sep 11, 2021)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> They're instrument plug-ins, not VSTis!
> 
> OOH!


Thanks for the moderation!


----------



## Megreen (Sep 11, 2021)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> They're instrument plug-ins, not VSTis!
> 
> OOH!


VSTi is instrument and those plugins are using physical modeling 
synthesis to produce sounds by using VST technology. 
They are not any different than any other synth which is 
VSTi and using different type of synthesis or being hybrid synth,
because they are using VST technology and they are not some "instrument plugins",
but VSTi's.


----------



## gamma-ut (Sep 11, 2021)

Megreen said:


> VSTi is instrument and those plugins are using physical modeling
> synthesis to produce sounds by using VST technology.
> They are not any different than any other synth which is
> VSTi and using different type of synthesis or being hybrid synth,
> ...


Unless they're AUs or AAX. 

I'll get me coat.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 11, 2021)

gamma-ut said:


> Unless they're AUs or AAX.
> 
> I'll get me coat.


"OOH Don't touch the coat!"

From Pacific Overtures.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 11, 2021)

gamma-ut said:


> Unless they're AUs or AAX.
> 
> I'll get me coat.


Exactly.

Calling plug-ins "VSTs" chafes my anus.

Erudite people like me would never call them that.


----------



## D Halgren (Sep 11, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Thanks for the moderation!


Hey doc, have you tried Nettle from the KVR Developer Challenge? It's free and fantastic! Scanned synthesis based on a physical model.


----------



## doctoremmet (Sep 11, 2021)

D Halgren said:


> Hey doc, have you tried Nettle from the KVR Developer Challenge? It's free and fantastic! Scanned synthesis based on a physical model.


I haven’t! Thanks for the heads-up. Will check! (Btw, I just ordered a Touché SE, oops).

Nettle | Download link here:









fellusive


hey! thanks for visiting my shop :D <div> </div><div>Due to file size limits, versions of plugins intended for different OS are currently listed separately here.</div><div><br></div><div>For more stuff check out - <a href="https://fellusive.carrd.co/">https://fellusive.carrd.co/</a> - <br> </div>




fellusive.gumroad.com


----------



## D Halgren (Sep 11, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> I haven’t! Thanks for the heads-up. Will check! (Btw, I just ordered a Touché SE, oops).
> 
> Nettle | Download link here:
> 
> ...


I've been looking at that thing myself 🤔


----------



## Quasar (Sep 11, 2021)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Calling plug-ins "VSTs" chafes my anus.
> 
> Erudite people like me would never call them that.


My favorite VSTi is Reaper, although (like most DAWs) it's currently sampled, though I hear they're working on a physical-modeled version, which will be mad with awesomeness! I like the sound of MIDI more than VST samples anyway, and usually use a buffer size of 44.1kHz with my unity gain set to 11.

But to answer the OP question, I have yet (if ever) to discover the SampleModeling/Audio Modeling worlds (pricey), but as others have said: MODO Bass and Pianoteq are great, as is AAS's Chromaphone 3. Still exploring MODO Drum, which I just got in the IKM group buy, but first impressions are good.


----------



## doctoremmet (Sep 11, 2021)

Cool, Skippy’s playing around with Imagine at the moment:



Unified ✅


----------



## Megreen (Sep 11, 2021)

gamma-ut said:


> Unless they're AUs or AAX.
> 
> I'll get me coat.


You forgot DirectX. (I get it the same old "instrument vs VSTi" joke, but wouldn't expect it at this place)


----------



## lychee (Sep 12, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> I bought three synths today. Oops. Ableton’s OctoCell. Imagine. And while I was there somehow Noisy fell in my cart too. This weekend will be… synthy.


Hi Doc!

I have watched videos from Imagine again and have the impression that these patches sound better than Chromaphone, especially for string sounds (the weak point of AAS products).




If you also have Chromaphone, could you confirm this point for me, it would help me to know if I should consider purchasing this plugin?
It might just be an impression and maybe it's just the patches that are better thought out, but this Imagine appeals to me and I would be afraid to make an unnecessary duplication with Chromaphone.


----------



## doctoremmet (Sep 12, 2021)

lychee said:


> Hi Doc!
> 
> I have watched videos from Imagine again and have the impression that these patches sound better than Chromaphone, especially for string sounds (the weak point of AAS products).
> 
> ...



I will definitely get back to you on this.


----------



## antret (Sep 12, 2021)

Lots of good info here… especially pointing out some of the new entries. 

my interest in physical modelling is not so much ‘realistic’ results, but unusual, ‘organic’ is what I dig. 

My faves match up with the pretty common list given:
Plasmonic
Kaivo
Resonans (reason rack)
Friktion (reason rack)

I have been eye balling Chromaphone 3 lately. I really like what they done with it. Just haven’t pulled the trigger. It looks more full featured (on the surface) than that new AAS coop project. Too early to say though…


----------



## lychee (Sep 16, 2021)

Sorry guys (or girls) but as the supreme guru of this synth, I have to give it a layer just to be sure of all of you counted among my followers. 
Friktion is certainly the best representative of what we call physical modeling, and here is to convince you (from sterile sound to pure patches that kills!):


----------



## doctoremmet (Sep 16, 2021)

@Databroth is at it again….


----------



## doctoremmet (Sep 16, 2021)

(also: my Touché SE arrived today)


----------



## doctoremmet (Sep 16, 2021)




----------



## Alchemedia (Sep 16, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> (also: my Touché SE arrived today)


Touche!  You're going to love it!


----------



## D Halgren (Sep 16, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> @Databroth is at it again….



He keeps taunting me to spend more money 💰

I wish it was MPE though. I already have Chromaphone and wonder if this is worth it?


----------



## Databroth (Sep 16, 2021)

Imagine is neat, the fx sound good, and the "msegs" are a nice touch, but over all the engine isn't too particularly special, there's some cool sequencer stuff you can do, but I wasn't thrilled with how each combination of exciter + resonators was its own preset, rather than just being able to build your own combos. it sounded good, but also another pet peeve, modulations didn't go too far into audio rate, probably a really fun synth for some, as an instrument layer/song writing. But as far as sound design, I could only get so experimental

though, what I did get, sounded fairly unique, glad Expressive E allowed me to use it

also I plan on picking up a touche at some point, a bit torn between SE and traditional
seems like it'd be a really fun controller


----------



## doctoremmet (Sep 17, 2021)

Auf Deutsch:


----------



## woodslanding (Sep 17, 2021)

begs the question: upgrade my chromaphone 2 for 40 or get imagine for 85... or stay pat. more research, I guess.

It's not strictly modeling (or is it?) but I love Prism for Reaktor. I have a set of very organic signature sounds for it, and I use them all the time. At this point I'd say that for a certain ilk of 'modelly' sounds, it hits my ear just a little better than AAS stuff. Maybe I should just go in and modify it some more. It could use a granulation option for the impulses, and I'm sure reaktor could provide that just fine. 

One thing I like about reaktor. Missing features? Dive in and add them!

And since I'm getting a new computer, I can probably use Silverwood live for the first time, that would be nice.


----------



## ghobii (Sep 17, 2021)

I bought Imagine after watching DataBroth's stream even though I have Chromophone 3. Although there's a lot of overlap they feel very different in use. Chromophone with its finer controls invites dialing in very nuanced sounds while Imagine is more streamlined and good for interesting rhythmic stuff and in general is more fun to experiment with.

I agree the exciter - resonator presets seems like an odd decision, but I guess they didn't want to completely cannibalize Chromaphone. No MPE is also disappointing especially since they push its "expressiveness".


----------



## lychee (Sep 17, 2021)

After analyzing several videos, I could see the big differences between Chroma and Imagine.
As said above, Chromaphone is more advanced in basic sound editing, while Imagine has a simplified interface but more sound modulation possibilities, notably thanks to its "msegs".
The bottom line is that I don't have to invest in Imagine, because its strengths don't interest me, compared to the style of music I like to compose.

I don't know Databroth if you would be ready to test Chromaphone 3 right after doing the Imagine one, but maybe what you couldn't do in Imagine is possible in Chroma.


----------



## Lode_Runner (Sep 18, 2021)

With all the mentions of MODO Bass and Drums earlier in the thread, I'm surprised no one mentioned IK's Hammond B3-X. That is my go to for B3 now. My sample libraries aren't nearly as good.


----------



## doctoremmet (Sep 18, 2021)

It deserves to be mentioned. In “tonewheel organ threads” it typically does get the praise it deserves but apparently modelled vintage keyboard VIs are viewed a bit as a separate category? I feel AAS Lounge Lizard is in that same corner.


----------



## Lode_Runner (Sep 18, 2021)

Lounge Lizard has been around for a really long time now, nearly 20 years. I remember thinking it was good back in the day, but felt sample libraries were better, particularly after SonicCouture came along. It's been of my radar since then, I didn't realise it was still going.


----------



## woodslanding (Sep 19, 2021)

> I bought Imagine after watching DataBroth's stream even though I have Chromophone 3. Although there's a lot of overlap they feel very different in use. Chromophone with its finer controls invites dialing in very nuanced sounds while Imagine is more streamlined and good for interesting rhythmic stuff and in general is more fun to experiment with.



I don't know... super deep synths are cool, but a simplified ultra controllable interface has its place as well. I think I'll spring for imagine sometime (if not necessarily right now... it is on sale... but I have to save something for black friday...) because it's so controllable.

I've tried setting up controls on prism, and there's just not many options for moving a single control and getting a variety of useful sounds. Every sound really needs to be dialed in, which isn't so helpful in performance. Yeah sure, I can wreak some fun havoc with this control, but then I need to return it very precisely to .452 for it to be playable again!

There should be a metric for the likelyhood that randomizing the controls of a synth will yield a playable sound. Obviously that's subjective, but it is something to consider... and it does look like it's almost hard to create a bad sound with imagine.

I may have to try out Chromaphone 3 first though, and see if I like it better than v2.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Sep 19, 2021)

Markrs said:


> For more intelligent people than me you can compose with OpenMusic



darn - looks like Windows version is 32bit only.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Sep 19, 2021)

in my best pianoworld type voice:

Pianoteq


----------



## doctoremmet (Oct 9, 2021)

MSoundFactory is getting one cool new feature after another lately.


----------



## Trash Panda (Oct 9, 2021)

Lode_Runner said:


> With all the mentions of MODO Bass and Drums earlier in the thread, I'm surprised no one mentioned IK's Hammond B3-X. That is my go to for B3 now. My sample libraries aren't nearly as good.


Oh for sure. It’s incredible!


----------



## KarlHeinz (Oct 9, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Oh for sure. It’s incredible!


Is the IK Hammond Physical modelling ? I have not realized that, if it might be one more choice for the still open ones (at least it wont take up to many disk space then )


----------



## doctoremmet (Oct 9, 2021)

It is a modelled organ.


----------



## KarlHeinz (Oct 9, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> It is a modelled organ.


Thanks, 700 mb only, so it really wont be samples, I really missed that .

Makes it much more interesting and I am sure this way you could get some real strange sounds out of it going much deeper then "only" getting the original sounds (even if you CAN go strange enough with an original B3 ).


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Oct 9, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> It is a modelled organ.


----------



## doctoremmet (Oct 9, 2021)

Better than an organed model!


----------



## Lode_Runner (Oct 9, 2021)

KarlHeinz said:


> I am sure this way you could get some real strange sounds out of it going much deeper then "only" getting the original sounds (even if you CAN go strange enough with an original B3 ).


Not sure about that. It's just designed to replicate the B3.


Zoot_Rollo said:


>


Wait, just watch the walkthrough.


----------



## Marcus Millfield (Oct 9, 2021)

For the price, I think the GSI VB3-II Hammond clone is a better deal than the IK one. The latter being a bit pricey, although it sounds good.

The GSI engine is used in the Crumar Mojo serie Hammond clones too, sounds great and is modelled too.


----------



## Lode_Runner (Oct 9, 2021)

Marcus Millfield said:


> For the price, I think the GSI VB3-II Hammond clone is a better deal than the IK one. The latter being a bit pricey, although it sounds good.


Yes, but with IK Multimedia you can wait for the 50% off sales (or group buys), use jam points etc.


----------



## Marcus Millfield (Oct 9, 2021)

Lode_Runner said:


> Yes, but with IK Multimedia you can wait for the 50% off sales (or group buys), use jam points etc.



That's true off course.


----------



## KarlHeinz (Oct 9, 2021)

Wow, the presets alone are worth picking it up inside the groupbuy . All the legends there......


----------



## Groctave (Oct 9, 2021)

Sample Modeling Brass
Audio Modeling (SWAM) Woodwinds, saxes included (NOT brass)
Modartt Pianoteq


----------



## Marcus Millfield (Oct 10, 2021)

Groctave said:


> Sample Modeling Brass
> Audio Modeling (SWAM) Woodwinds, saxes included (NOT brass)
> Modartt Pianoteq



SWAM brass has it's uses. Layering it with samples is very useful, as SWAM do some things really well (attack, vibrato, sizzle). It just needs to be tuned in.


----------



## Groctave (Oct 10, 2021)

Marcus Millfield said:


> SWAM brass has it's uses. Layering it with samples is very useful, as SWAM do some things really well (attack, vibrato, sizzle). It just needs to be tuned in.


Sure! I hear things I like in the sound* but other things that prevent me from buying them (I only could tried them at a compser friend's) and I already own Sample Modeling Brass so... Too bad because I love their woods!
But for the moment, I'm happy with Sample Modeling and layering them with Hollywood Brass is just fantastic!

*) the trumpets and trombones especially, I think the horns are a miss


----------



## doctoremmet (Oct 15, 2021)




----------



## Trash Panda (Oct 15, 2021)

Can someone please humor my dumb self asking a dumb question?

What is the draw of physical modeling over other synthesis methods for making sounds that sound nothing like a real acoustic instrument? Like I get the interest in using PM to try to recreate a cello. Not so much for making an obvious synth sound. Do they sound that different from subtractive, additive and FM synthesis?


----------



## D Halgren (Oct 15, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Can someone please humor my dumb self asking a dumb question?
> 
> What is the draw of physical modeling over other synthesis methods for making sounds that sound nothing like a real acoustic instrument? Like I get the interest in using PM to try to recreate a cello. Not so much for making an obvious synth sound. Do they sound that different from subtractive, additive and FM synthesis?


It's like playing with the fabric of reality 👍


----------



## doctoremmet (Oct 15, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Do they sound that different from subtractive, additive and FM synthesis?


They do.


----------



## Double Helix (Oct 15, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


>



Refreshing approach to sound design, but Bowed Pad @2:10 is my favorite


----------



## doctoremmet (Oct 27, 2021)

Thanks @Databroth


----------



## Databroth (Oct 27, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Thanks @Databroth



no problem, glad you enjoyed, it's worth mentioning I did Sculpture yesterday, which is my personal physical modeling synth
this week is almost secret physical modeling week, because I'll likely do friktion tomorrow, and I'm thinking prism on friday

they all have quite different characteristics and tonal palettes

Plasmonic can do some magical stuff, but is quite finicky to work with

I find it a bit more difficult than most PM synths to get classical instrument type tones
stuff like strings, marimbas, horns don't really seem to come out of plasmonic, at least not with any professional quality when compared to friktion and scultpure

however, plasmonic is almost like a physical model of alien instruments, liquid bells and other worldly flutes. It does those really well and in a way I find quite unique

I really need to contact A.A.S. about getting my hands on Chromophone, (yet another green physical modeling synth lol) to compare with the rest


----------



## lychee (Oct 28, 2021)

Databroth said:


> ...I really need to contact A.A.S. about getting my hands on Chromophone, (yet another green physical modeling synth lol) to compare with the rest


I look forward to seeing you test Chromaphone, which is one of my favorite physical modeling instruments, just behind Friktion.


----------



## hoxclab (Oct 28, 2021)

Sakura without a doubt.


----------



## mostexcellent (Oct 28, 2021)

I recently picked up Plasmonic and have been loving it


----------



## doctoremmet (Oct 29, 2021)




----------



## Alchemedia (Nov 9, 2021)

mostexcellent said:


> I recently picked up Plasmonic and have been loving it


Brian is brilliant!


----------



## Alchemedia (Nov 9, 2021)

D Halgren said:


> It's like playing with the fabric of reality 👍


If you're gonna quote Tony Visconti, you may as well go all the way!


----------



## Detalion (Dec 1, 2021)

Modartt Pianoteq v7
AAS Chromaphone v3
AAS StringStudio VS-3
AAS Lounge Lizard EP-4
Arturia V Collection 8
Modo Drum
Modo Bass
Friktion


----------



## Marcus Millfield (Dec 1, 2021)

Detalion said:


> Modartt Pianoteq v7
> AAS Chromaphone v3
> AAS StringStudio VS-3
> AAS Lounge Lizard EP-4
> ...


You actually like MODO Drum?


----------



## Detalion (Dec 1, 2021)

Marcus Millfield said:


> You actually like MODO Drum?


Yes, why? You do not like ?


----------



## Marcus Millfield (Dec 1, 2021)

Detalion said:


> Yes, why? You do not like ?


I have a really hard time making it sound like an actual drumset. Only the bass and cymbals (which are samples btw) sound okay. I never get the snare of the snare to resonate as I want to.


----------



## Detalion (Dec 1, 2021)

Marcus Millfield said:


> I have a really hard time making it sound like an actual drumset. Only the bass and cymbals (which are samples btw) sound okay. I never get the snare of the snare to resonate as I want to.


Do you use preset or you create yours ?


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## Marcus Millfield (Dec 1, 2021)

Detalion said:


> Do you use preset or you create yours ?


My own. I tried to get a bit of a jazzy drum from the jazz drum preset and ended up with a kind of frankendrum which in the end didn't sound that convincing on it's own. Mixed with samples it worked, but then I found that I didn't miss anything when I deleted the MODO drums and just left it at that.


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## applegrovebard (Dec 1, 2021)

I've always been a contented enough pc guy, but do periodically think of getting a MacBook (just to experience that fabled Mac-realm before I die) and one of the things that attracts me is Sculpture. But Sculpture must be about 20 years old now- does it still offer physical modelling options I can't easily duplicate in Windows?


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## shmuelyosef (Dec 1, 2021)

I have the entire AAS suite, but mostly use Multiphonics and Chromaphone...they seem to be the most wide-ranging for sound design (String Studio and Lounge Lizard are pretty constrained...). \

Looking for more breadth beyond these in physical modeling. Does anyone have deep experience with Madrona's Kaivo AND Chromaphone? I'm thinking about expanding my horizon...is Kaivo similar to Chromaphone in the range of modeled structures? 

Also, thinking about jumping into a granular tool...have played around with a couple of freebies, but they're not real interesting. Does the Kaivo tool have a substantial "use case" with their "granular subsystem"?


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## lychee (Dec 3, 2021)

@Databroth you are a genius ! :

​


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## Nando Florestan (Dec 3, 2021)

The audio demos of the free aeolus organ make me wish I could run it on Windows.


Aeolus


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## doctoremmet (Jan 7, 2022)




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## D Halgren (Jan 24, 2022)

Paging @doctoremmet


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## doctoremmet (Jan 24, 2022)

D Halgren said:


> Paging @doctoremmet



Consider me paged! Thanks ❤️


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## D Halgren (Jan 24, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Consider me paged! Thanks ❤️


I'm looking forward to this. These guys are doing very interesting things 😉


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## doctoremmet (Jan 24, 2022)

D Halgren said:


> I'm looking forward to this. These guys are doing very interesting things 😉


Love Derailer, I’ve sampled a lot of results I got from it last year and have used that as raw material for wavetables and granular f*ckery. Their reverb models are also really good. So this one snippet of the new model already sounds really promising. I think you can tell this developer is firmly rooted in academia.


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## D Halgren (Jan 24, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Love Derailer, I’ve sampled a lot of results I got from it last year and have used that as raw material for wavetables and granular f*ckery. Their reverb models are also really good. So this one snippet of the new model already sounds really promising. I think you can tell this developer is firmly rooted in academia.


That sounds really cool! Academic indeed, as I pick up my phone that was sitting on a Curtis Roads book, while watching a Julius Smith lecture on physical modeling 😜


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Jan 24, 2022)

About Derailer and https://physicalaudio.co.uk/about/ you can also check my post 





The UnLocked NESS monster!


https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/10/27/1037286/music-future-research-instruments/ Also check: https://www.theshocknews.com/these-impossible-instruments-could-change-the-future-of-music/ http://www.ness.music.ed.ac.uk/target-systems




vi-control.net


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## Bee_Abney (Jan 24, 2022)

Derailer is pretty good. I demoed it briefly. It make some nice sounds quite easily but I don't really have the skill to plumb whatever dephs it may have.


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Jan 24, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> Derailer is pretty good. I demoed it briefly. It make some nice sounds quite easily but I don't really have the skill to plumb whatever dephs it may have.


Same here. I thought about using it in my latest track but as I was short on time (being "challenged" by my nasty husband ) I did not have time to experiment with it. Next time...


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## pianistje (Jan 30, 2022)

Just picked up Modo Bass light a few weeks ago and upgraded to full just now. Contrary to Pianoteq this blew me away instantly. Pianoteq still lacks this pristine ‘sound’ componant compared to top piano vst’s no matter how much i wanted it be the other way around. But wow, just wow, by all means i am no professional bass player and i use Orange Tree and Ample Sounds for guitars and basses. But this Modo Bass is not only giving me way more options i swapped some basses for a first Modo Bass replacement and i was surprised how much of a difference it made. That is of course extremely subjective and personal, but i never knew i needed a better sounding bass vst until recently. Made me wonder what else can be upgraded without having a clue yet.


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## Bee_Abney (Jan 30, 2022)

pianistje said:


> Just picked up Modo Bass light a few weeks ago and upgraded to full just now. Contrary to Pianoteq this blew me away instantly. Pianoteq still lacks this pristine ‘sound’ componant compared to top piano vst’s no matter how much i wanted it be the other way around. But wow, just wow, by all means i am no professional bass player and i use Orange Tree and Ample Sounds for guitars and basses. But this Modo Bass is not only giving me way more options i swapped some basses for a first Modo Bass replacement and i was surprised how much of a difference it made. That is of course extremely subjective and personal, but i never knew i needed a better sounding bass vst until recently. Made me wonder what else can be upgraded without having a clue yet.


That's why it's so important to buy everything.

EVERYTHING!!!!


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## doctoremmet (Jan 30, 2022)

pianistje said:


> Just picked up Modo Bass light a few weeks ago and upgraded to full just now. Contrary to Pianoteq this blew me away instantly. Pianoteq still lacks this pristine ‘sound’ componant compared to top piano vst’s no matter how much i wanted it be the other way around. But wow, just wow, by all means i am no professional bass player and i use Orange Tree and Ample Sounds for guitars and basses. But this Modo Bass is not only giving me way more options i swapped some basses for a first Modo Bass replacement and i was surprised how much of a difference it made. That is of course extremely subjective and personal, but i never knew i needed a better sounding bass vst until recently. Made me wonder what else can be upgraded without having a clue yet.


Well… MODO Bass is among the very best, the crème-de-la-crème, of modelled instruments. In a way it has set a new aspiration level for other virtual instruments, but unfortunately I am unaware of many more examples like it.


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## Bee_Abney (Jan 30, 2022)

pianistje said:


> Just picked up Modo Bass light a few weeks ago and upgraded to full just now. Contrary to Pianoteq this blew me away instantly. Pianoteq still lacks this pristine ‘sound’ componant compared to top piano vst’s no matter how much i wanted it be the other way around. But wow, just wow, by all means i am no professional bass player and i use Orange Tree and Ample Sounds for guitars and basses. But this Modo Bass is not only giving me way more options i swapped some basses for a first Modo Bass replacement and i was surprised how much of a difference it made. That is of course extremely subjective and personal, but i never knew i needed a better sounding bass vst until recently. Made me wonder what else can be upgraded without having a clue yet.


More seriously, I think it's like subtle reverb. You won't necessarily hear the quality of the bass, but when it's there the whole thing works better. The same goes for including a real instrument instead of a sample one. Samples sound so good, it is possible to forget how much more alive the real thing sounds.

Physical modelling instruments, ideally, are that little bit closer to being a 'real' instrument. Not that sample instruments aren't real; it's only when they are being used to imitate the thing sampled that I find them limiting. Still great. But when they are played as their own thing, like a Mellotron, or using sample sounds in a sound design context (like Mntra) then I think they become more fully realised instruments.

Probably stuff and nonsense. But Modo does play wonderfully.


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## pianistje (Jan 30, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> That's why it's so important to buy everything.
> 
> EVERYTHING!!!!


Hahaha yes !!


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## pianistje (Jan 30, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> More seriously, I think it's like subtle reverb. You won't necessarily hear the quality of the bass, but when it's there the whole thing works better. The same goes for including a real instrument instead of a sample one. Samples sound so good, it is possible to forget how much more alive the real thing sounds.
> 
> Physical modelling instruments, ideally, are that little bit closer to being a 'real' instrument. Not that sample instruments aren't real; it's only when they are being used to imitate the thing sampled that I find them limiting. Still great. But when they are played as their own thing, like a Mellotron, or using sample sounds in a sound design context (like Mntra) then I think they become more fully realised instruments.
> 
> Probably stuff and nonsense. But Modo does play wonderfully.


I agree a tad of reverb can make a huge difference ! Although i have many reverbs and possibly just me , but they all sound wonderful to me , not one simply better than the other. To be honest this is the first time a new instruments makes such a big difference. And yes i listen to recordings a lot and a good recorded real instrument is still next level. Sadly i thought i could sound like the old school pro’s with enough vst’s and mastering tools. That dream, also because of my own incompetence and not so realistic view about some of my abilities, has been crushed long ago.


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## Bee_Abney (Jan 30, 2022)

pianistje said:


> I agree a tad of reverb can make a huge difference ! Although i have many reverbs and possibly just me , but they all sound wonderful to me , not one simply better than the other. To be honest this is the first time a new instruments makes such a big difference. And yes i listen to recordings a lot and a good recorded real instrument is still next level. Sadly i thought i could sound like the old school pro’s with enough vst’s and mastering tools. That dream, also because of my own incompetence and not so realistic view about some of my abilities, has been crushed long ago.


But it so much better to sound like you rather than them. And in time, you will find a way to craft music with these instruments that sounds truly good.


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## lychee (Jan 30, 2022)

pianistje said:


> Just picked up Modo Bass light a few weeks ago and upgraded to full just now. Contrary to Pianoteq this blew me away instantly. Pianoteq still lacks this pristine ‘sound’ componant compared to top piano vst’s no matter how much i wanted it be the other way around. But wow, just wow, by all means i am no professional bass player and i use Orange Tree and Ample Sounds for guitars and basses. But this Modo Bass is not only giving me way more options i swapped some basses for a first Modo Bass replacement and i was surprised how much of a difference it made. That is of course extremely subjective and personal, but i never knew i needed a better sounding bass vst until recently. Made me wonder what else can be upgraded without having a clue yet.


Modo Bass is definitely one of my favorite plugins with Friktion.
Purists will say it doesn't quite sound like the real thing, but to me it sounds much more alive and human than anything I have in my sample library.
I'm impatiently waiting for IK to decide to give us Modo Guitar, and I hesitate to take Modo Drum, on sale at the moment.


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## AudioLoco (Jan 30, 2022)




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## Bee_Abney (Jan 30, 2022)

AudioLoco said:


>


Does this mean you have no money? Bread (money), none.

If not, you have my interest!


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## R. Naroth (Jan 30, 2022)

lychee said:


> Modo Bass is definitely one of my favorite plugins with Friktion.
> Purists will say it doesn't quite sound like the real thing, but to me it sounds much more alive and human than anything I have in my sample library.
> I'm impatiently waiting for IK to decide to give us Modo Guitar, and I hesitate to take Modo Drum, on sale at the moment.


I bought Modo Drum last week on sale but it won’t install for me since I am on an old Mac Pro 5,1. I’ll wait until my next PC upgrade. :-(


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Jan 30, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> Does this mean you have no money? Bread (money), none.
> 
> If not, you have my interest!


Might be a pun on nun! 

Naan/ nan bread vs nun...

Or i need more coffee...


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## Bee_Abney (Jan 30, 2022)

Tatiana Gordeeva said:


> Might be a pun on nun!
> 
> Naan/ nan bread vs nun...
> 
> Or i need more coffee...


Naan bread makes perfect sense as a riddle, but whatever could its import be?


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## Bee_Abney (Jan 30, 2022)

R. Naroth said:


> I bought Modo Drum last week on sale but it won’t install for me since I am on an old Mac Pro 5,1. I’ll wait until my next PC upgrade. :-(


Have you had that confirmed? I have found I K Multimedia products to be tricky to install on a PC before.


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## R. Naroth (Jan 30, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> Have you had that confirmed? I have found I K Multimedia products to be tricky to install on a PC before.


Looks like certain intel processors aren’t supported. I’m waiting for the new Mac Mini to be released. IK says it has native M1 support. My Mac Pro is showing its age with some of the newer VSTs.


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## Bee_Abney (Jan 30, 2022)

R. Naroth said:


> Looks like certain intel processors aren’t supported. I’m waiting for the new Mac Mini to be released. IK says it has native M1 support. My Mac Pro is showing its age with some of the newer VSTs.


That’s a shame; but at least the solution is on it’s way.


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## muziksculp (Jan 30, 2022)

Are we still in 2021 ?


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## Bee_Abney (Jan 30, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Are we still in 2021 ?


No sir. It's still 1978 where I am.


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## muziksculp (Jan 30, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> No sir. It's still 1978 where I am.


Those are good years, enjoy them.


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## doctoremmet (Feb 16, 2022)




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## doctoremmet (Feb 16, 2022)

*Physical modelling of prepared strings*





*PREPARATION* is based on mathematical modelling of 2 basic elements; strings which can be configured as bars, and a rattling element. Each voice has a pair of strings connected by a rattle that reacts to the vibrations at each end. This uses the latest research in collision modelling to calculate the acoustic system in real-time. The strings have parameters for nonlinearity, inharmonicity, sustain and tone. The rattle has controls for the mass at each end, the gap from the strings, the stiffness, edginess, strength and its position. A low shelf EQ, overdrive and reverb units complete the signal chain, giving a wide range of sounds from cutting leads to epic soundscapes. See this tutorial post for further details.

*Next-generation collision modelling*
Preparation is based on next-generation modelling of collisions between the strings and the rattle element. Accurate modelling of collisions using a direct numerical method is computationally expensive to perform. Using our advanced non-iterative solvers we can compute the acoustic system for 8 voice polyphony in real-time, with the minimum amount of CPU usage. Preparation uses finite difference modelling of the physical equations of motion, details of which can be found in these technical papers. [link below, Doc]

*Sound design by Deru and Gadi Sassoon
Deru*
Deru is Benjamin Wynn, an award winning electronic musician and composer based out of Los Angeles. He has been releasing albums and scores under the Deru alias for the last 15 years. In addition to his own music, Wynn composes for television, film, and dance, and creates multimedia performance experiences as part of the Echo Society.

*Gadi Sassoon*
Gadi Sassoon is a composer, poly-instrumentalist and synthesist based in Milan. He combines experimental systems and traditional techniques to create sounds that escape definition. The narrative overtones of his music stem from years working as a composer with labels, publishers, film companies and the art world, appearing on major and indie records, soundtracks and orchestral productions.

_Scientific background (paper):_








(PDF) Non-iterative solvers for nonlinear problems: the case of collisions


PDF | Nonlinearity is a key feature in musical instruments and electronic circuits alike, and thus in simulation, for the purposes of physics-based... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




www.researchgate.net





_Link to Physical Audio’s product page:_








Preparation - Physical Audio


Preparation is a physical modelling instrument based on nonlinear models of strings and collisions. A Product licence costs:




physicalaudio.co.uk


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## D Halgren (Feb 16, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Physical modelling of prepared strings
> 
> Preparation is based on mathematical modelling of 2 basic elements; strings which can be configured as bars, and a rattling element. Each voice has a pair of strings connected by a rattle that reacts to the vibrations at each end. This uses the latest research in collision modelling to calculate the acoustic system in real-time. The strings have parameters for nonlinearity, inharmonicity, sustain and tone. The rattle has controls for the mass at each end, the gap from the strings, the stiffness, edginess, strength and its position. A low shelf EQ, overdrive and reverb units complete the signal chain, giving a wide range of sounds from cutting leads to epic soundscapes. See this tutorial post for further details.
> 
> ...


I'm all over this. Their instruments are a bit of a one trick pony, but I really like the trick!


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## doctoremmet (Feb 16, 2022)

D Halgren said:


> I'm all over this. Their instruments are a bit of a one trick pony, but I really like the trick!


Same. This will be my first synth purchase of 2022. Dawesome NOVUM likely my second.


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## D Halgren (Feb 16, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Same. This will be my first synth purchase of 2022. Dawesome NOVUM likely my second.


I'm looking at that as well. Do we have a timeline for release?


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## doctoremmet (Feb 16, 2022)

D Halgren said:


> I'm looking at that as well. Do we have a timeline for release?


Maybe it was mentioned in the recent Tracktion “2022 roadmap” livestream but I shall ask Peter V in the Dawesome thread.


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## Bee_Abney (Feb 16, 2022)

I knew Physical Audio had something new coming out, but either they didn't say when or I lost track of it. I'll be taking a look, but I may not purchase it soon. I still don't have their Derailer which I demoed and found to be very good but I wasn't sure I'd be able to get enough nuance out of it - on account of my limitations rather than its.

My first synth of 2022 was bought last night, in bed, checking Knobcloud on my phone. I am now making mysterious noises with DS Thorn and some presets I bought by Empty Vessel (who is absurdly good at what he does).

I'll do my best to have some money ready for Dawesome Novum to buy it as soon as it is released. Sometimes complex spectral shenanigans don't end up producing great sounds, but I have great confidence that this is going to become an invaluable tool in sound design.


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## doctoremmet (Feb 16, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> I am now making mysterious noises with DS Thorn and some presets I bought by Empty Vessel (who is absurdly good at what he does).


It is a fantastic combo for sure. @emptyvessel is one of my heroes in this domain!


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## gamma-ut (Feb 16, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> _Link to Physical Audio’s product page:_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I didn't need a new PM synth. Until today.

This one seems as though it could have a wider range than Derailer and fit nearly all the let's-make-like-Amon-Tobin needs one might have.


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## doctoremmet (Feb 16, 2022)

gamma-ut said:


> I didn't need a new PM synth. Until today.
> 
> This one seems as though it could have a wider range than Derailer and fit nearly all the let's-make-like-Amon-Tobin needs one might have.


Great assessment, thanks.


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## D Halgren (Feb 16, 2022)

Well, Preparation is officially a smash hit in my book! Love it!!!


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## D Halgren (Feb 16, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Great assessment, thanks.


Did you grab it yet? It is really good, more responsive than Derailer. They are getting better with each iteration. The MPE is set up well!


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## doctoremmet (Feb 16, 2022)

D Halgren said:


> Did you grab it yet? It is really good, more responsive than Derailer. They are getting better with each iteration. The MPE is set up well!


I have but have not been able to check it out yet - it will likely have to wait until the weekend. I am glad that they nailed it! Are you using your Linnstrument with it? Or Seaboard? [I am researching the Artinoise re.corder at the moment 🙀]


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## D Halgren (Feb 16, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> I have but have not been able to check it out yet - it will likely have to wait until the weekend. I am glad that they nailed it! Are you using your Linnstrument with it? Or Seaboard? [I am researching the Artinoise re.corder at the moment 🙀]


I look forward to your feelings on it! I use both with everything. I've come to a workflow where I use the seaboard for sounds with a slow attack, or that need slow Y axis modulation, and the linn for fast attacks or fast Y axis modulation. It works out really well! Horses for courses, as it were. Not sure if you have that saying in Holland 🤔


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## D Halgren (Feb 16, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> I have but have not been able to check it out yet - it will likely have to wait until the weekend. I am glad that they nailed it! Are you using your Linnstrument with it? Or Seaboard? [I am researching the Artinoise re.corder at the moment 🙀]


Have you checked out the Sylphyo? I've been checking that one out lately.


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## doctoremmet (Feb 16, 2022)

D Halgren said:


> Have you checked out the Sylphyo? I've been checking that one out lately.


Of course  - and I am also looking at real flutes and weird contraptions like the Venova


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## antret (Feb 17, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> My first synth of 2022 was bought last night, in bed, checking Knobcloud on my phone. I am now making mysterious noises with DS Thorn and some presets I bought by Empty Vessel (who is absurdly good at what he does).


Thorn rules. Makes it on most tracks. 

As far as PM synths go I have been liking Expressive E's Imagine lately. Scratches that Chromophone 3 itch AND get's right to the heart of the matter re: controls, etc. It has that 'grittiness' that I always liked when I heard Chromophone.


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## doctoremmet (Feb 22, 2022)

@Databroth - a synthesist one can count on when it comes to exploring the newest of new things. We thank you. (Well a certain subset of the human race anyway).


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## Bee_Abney (Feb 22, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> @Databroth - a synthesist one can count on when it comes to exploring the newest of new things. We thank you. (Well a certain subset of the human race anyway).




I just found that upload this morning. I'm looking forward to it but I also afraid.

It's going to make me want Preparation even more, isn't it?


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## doctoremmet (Feb 22, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> I just found that upload this morning. I'm looking forward to it but I also afraid.
> 
> It's going to make me want Preparation even more, isn't it?


I'm 13 minutes in, and I could have sworn someone had climbed the Martinitoren in my home city, somehow gained access to the carillon in there, and then went on to melt the bells, bow them with huge ten ft poles, and finally throw them down the stairs - in the mean time summoning a bunch of evil spirits to join the party with some throat singing.

TL;DR yes


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## Bee_Abney (Feb 22, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> I'm 13 minutes in, and I could have sworn someone had climbed the Martinitoren in my home city, somehow gained access to the carillon in there, and then went on to melt the bells, bow them with huge ten ft poles, and finally throw them down the stairs - in the mean time summoning a bunch of evil spirits to join the party with some throat singing.
> 
> TL;DR yes


Now that's what I call music!


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## Databroth (Feb 22, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> @Databroth - a synthesist one can count on when it comes to exploring the newest of new things. We thank you. (Well a certain subset of the human race anyway).



hey thank you, I was planning on posting this here, it's a pretty cool physical modeling synth, really want to try derailer now, I think every physical modeling synth is uniquely different, the way old analog synths used to be starkly unique from one to another

friktion, scultpure, plasmonic, chromophone, prism, kaivo, and now preparation all cover distinctly different ranges of tonality

especially bearing in mind where each one starts to clip or struggle to produce useful sounds
it might not make sense to collect a dozen wavetable synths, or fm synths
where each one has maybe one or two unique features from the rest, but over all (and somewhat by design) all sound vaguely similar

but with physical modeling, especially if it's the type of sound you use in your productions, there seems to be a lot of merit in "collecting them all"


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## doctoremmet (Feb 22, 2022)

Databroth said:


> but with physical modeling, especially if it's the type of sound you use in your productions, there seems to be a lot of merit in "collecting them all"


I fearfully agree


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## doctoremmet (Feb 22, 2022)

Databroth said:


> really want to try derailer now


Have it. You’ll love it. The reverbs are also fun.


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## Richard Wilkinson (Feb 22, 2022)

Databroth said:


> friktion, scultpure, plasmonic, chromophone, prism, kaivo, and now preparation all cover distinctly different ranges of tonality


I saw your playthrough of Friktion and went to buy it instantly, only to find it's Reason-only! Sculpture and Kaivo are *great*, but Frikition does some stuff that seems impossible to achieve with other software.


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## R. Naroth (Feb 22, 2022)

Friktion works inside Reason Rack which was available as a VST. I bought it a while ago from Plugin Boutique but it looks like it is not on sale anymore anywhere. Friktion in fact is a really nice synth, it is unfortunate that Reason is a walled garden now.


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## JamelaBanderson (Feb 22, 2022)

I really like Plogue for authentic sounding retro games sounds.
And this may make me unpopular, but I love AAS Strum. Put it in the background with a modeled amp, IR, or distortion and it can absolutely pass for rhythm guitar.


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## Bee_Abney (Feb 24, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> I'm 13 minutes in, and I could have sworn someone had climbed the Martinitoren in my home city, somehow gained access to the carillon in there, and then went on to melt the bells, bow them with huge ten ft poles, and finally throw them down the stairs - in the mean time summoning a bunch of evil spirits to join the party with some throat singing.
> 
> TL;DR yes


That description is as worrying specific as it is accurate.


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## Lohena (Feb 24, 2022)

It's crazy but I find myself liking the sound of Modo Bass and Pianoteq better than some recordings of actual instruments. Seems to be a recording deficiency for certain albums, piano especially, but still.

Anyway my discovery of PM instruments is leading me away from the somewhat futile pursuit of finding a truely authentic sound and into caring more about the expressive capabilities of an instrument.


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## Bee_Abney (Feb 24, 2022)

Lohena said:


> It's crazy but I find myself liking the sound of Modo Bass and Pianoteq better than some recordings of actual instruments. Seems to be a recording deficiency for certain albums, piano especially, but still.
> 
> Anyway my discovery of PM instruments is leading me away from the somewhat futile pursuit of finding a truely authentic sound and into caring more about the expressive capabilities of an instrument.



That's something I've been thinking too. I've not fully gone down that route yet, but it is beginning to look appealing.


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## doctoremmet (Feb 26, 2022)




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## Databroth (Feb 26, 2022)

I liked preparation a bit more, derailer has more options on the surface, but I found most arrangements of bars and springs sounded rather similar
it'd be nice if they combined the two ideas, allowed you to place springs and bars and rattlers at will
I like where they are going, perhaps their next release will just blow everything out of the water


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## D Halgren (Feb 26, 2022)

Databroth said:


> I liked preparation a bit more, derailer has more options on the surface, but I found most arrangements of bars and springs sounded rather similar
> it'd be nice if they combined the two ideas, allowed you to place springs and bars and rattlers at will
> I like where they are going, perhaps their next release will just blow everything out of the water


I definitely feel like they are learning and refining the idea, so hopefully it just keeps getting better. I also wish they would let you change the pitch bend values and assign modulation yourself, instead of just being stuck with what they set up.


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## JamelaBanderson (Mar 1, 2022)

Has anyone tried the Quilcom freebie instruments by Rex Basterfield? Just watched a couple YouTube videos and these seem promising. http://flowstoners.com/ 
Found through another thread here: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/nyckelharpa-or-hurdy-gurdy-vst.119830/page-2#post-5022750


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## lychee (Mar 2, 2022)

JamelaBanderson said:


> Has anyone tried the Quilcom freebie instruments by Rex Basterfield? Just watched a couple YouTube videos and these seem promising. http://flowstoners.com/
> Found through another thread here: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/nyckelharpa-or-hurdy-gurdy-vst.119830/page-2#post-5022750


Good find, even if it's not always realistic, but it's still very interesting and free.
Here is the youtube channel in question to get an idea: 



https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkqDI3F4E6KaguZ1suQ_8DA/videos


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## applegrovebard (Mar 2, 2022)

There are some very detailed and fascinating models of physical instruments here. Also included in the downloads are often a wealth of background material regarding the instruments and emulating them. 

How about this one for fantasy battle scenes?


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## Bee_Abney (Mar 4, 2022)

Regarding Physical Audio products, I wrote to ask about using samples of sounds made on their synths. I don’t think it would be right to quote verbatim an email that wasn’t intended as a press release, but the gist is that you can use their synths in professional compositions and sound design but that you need special permission to use (modified) samples of their synths in samples (such as in sample packs) or patches that you sell or share.

As expected, and perfectly fair. But, as ever, it means that the best tools for generating sounds for those of us who can’t afford to hire musicians or instruments cannot be used as part of the creation of sample instruments, patches or sample packs without further negotiation. But at least that further negotiation isn’t ruled out from the start.

As far as I know, the Applied Acoustic Systems synths can be used for this. Does anyone know? i might email them next. If not, it could be time for me to learn how to design my own physical modelling synth, perhaps in Reaktor. (Yeah, that’s not happening any time soon.)


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## proxima (Mar 5, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> Regarding Physical Audio products, I wrote to ask about using samples of sounds made on their synths. I don’t think it would be right to quote verbatim an email that wasn’t intended as a press release, but the gist is that you can use their synths in professional compositions and sound design but that you need special permission to use (modified) samples of their synths in samples (such as in sample packs) or patches that you sell or share.


So interesting and annoying. Nobody would put up with a license agreement like that on a hardware synth (or any real instrument!), but a software synth built entirely algorithmically, with no samples, is somehow different?


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## Bee_Abney (Mar 5, 2022)

proxima said:


> So interesting and annoying. Nobody would put up with a license agreement like that on a hardware synth (or any real instrument!), but a software synth built entirely algorithmically, with no samples, is somehow different?


Yes, but it is a matter of protecting their business. I think this applies less in the case of these synths than with something like Pianoteq or SWAM instruments. There, if you weren't prevented by the EULA, it would be possible to make sample instrument versions and sell them at a much lower price.

Of course, that would be a bit mad. You'd have all the downsides of samples and all the downsides of imperfect modelling. But I can see the point to it.

Similarly with the Physical Audio synths, if I were to make weird sounds on them, sample those, and sell them, that could potentially reduce the number of people buying Physical Audio's software.

So, I expected this answer, much as it frustrates me.


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## proxima (Mar 5, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> Similarly with the Physical Audio synths, if I were to make weird sounds on them, sample those, and sell them, that could potentially reduce the number of people buying Physical Audio's software.
> 
> So, I expected this answer, much as it frustrates me.


The same logic applies to hardware synths and other instruments. But culturally (and legally) we've gotten to a place where restrictive license agreements are okay for software but crazy for hardware.


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## Bee_Abney (Mar 5, 2022)

proxima said:


> The same logic applies to hardware synths and other instruments. But culturally (and legally) we've gotten to a place where restrictive license agreements are okay for software but crazy for hardware.



It applies to presets on hardware synths.

And, yes, the same logic applies to all musical instruments. But there are other legal dimensions too. I own my hardware instruments, but I only own licenses to my software.

But highly restrictive licenses might not sell well. So market forces can play a role.


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## doctoremmet (Jul 25, 2022)

Just leaving this here. Throwback Monday


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## Bee_Abney (Jul 25, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Just leaving this here. Throwback Monday



Very retro, yet not all that different to Razor!


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## woodslanding (Sep 9, 2022)

Just heard about Plasmodic, from the maker of Absynth. Fabulous sounding synth, but I will have to wait for my next generation computer, as it brings mine to its knees with instant 90% cpu!

Still... lovely. 









Plasmonic - Rhizomatic Software Synthesis


Beyond Physical Modeling “Plasmonic sounds like nothing you’ve heard before” – Marty Cutler, Synth and Software https://vimeo.com/651088487 Plasmonic captures the complex acoustic resonances of Physical Modeling, expands on it with more familiar elements of Subtractive Synthesis, and adds a few...




rhizomatic.fr


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## doctoremmet (Sep 9, 2022)

woodslanding said:


> Just heard about Plasmodic, from the maker of Absynth. Fabulous sounding synth, but I will have to wait for my next generation computer, as it brings mine to its knees with instant 90% cpu!
> 
> Still... lovely.
> 
> ...


Pretty sure this one was already on the list hehe (edit: yes - mentioned in post #3) but thanks for mentioning it again  - this thread is way too long to not have repeated mentions of the same things


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## dainiak (Sep 9, 2022)

Richard Wilkinson said:


> I saw your playthrough of Friktion and went to buy it instantly, only to find it's Reason-only! Sculpture and Kaivo are *great*, but Frikition does some stuff that seems impossible to achieve with other software.


You might be interested in a soundset for Friktion that came out recently: https://www.reasonstudios.com/shop/product/satisfriktion/


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## lychee (Sep 9, 2022)

Hello PhyMo addicts!

Going back through this thread I came across Quilcom instruments.
The last time I had browsed the Youtube channel of the creator of these plugins and had been moderately excited by the instruments.
Some sounded good, but others were much less interesting (according to my tastes).
But I missed the plugin named Rank Two, a modeled pipe organ, and here I recommend it because it's an excellent plugin (still according to my tastes), and in addition it's free, so...


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## Photosynth (Sep 23, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> Regarding Physical Audio products, I wrote to ask about using samples of sounds made on their synths. I don’t think it would be right to quote verbatim an email that wasn’t intended as a press release, but the gist is that you can use their synths in professional compositions and sound design but that you need special permission to use (modified) samples of their synths in samples (such as in sample packs) or patches that you sell or share.
> 
> As expected, and perfectly fair. But, as ever, it means that the best tools for generating sounds for those of us who can’t afford to hire musicians or instruments cannot be used as part of the creation of sample instruments, patches or sample packs without further negotiation. But at least that further negotiation isn’t ruled out from the start.
> 
> As far as I know, the Applied Acoustic Systems synths can be used for this. Does anyone know? i might email them next. If not, it could be time for me to learn how to design my own physical modelling synth, perhaps in Reaktor. (Yeah, that’s not happening any time soon.)


HI Bee, I just registered an account because, after reading through this thread and getting tremendous help in finding PhyMo synth plugins to consider from it, I wanted to let you and any others know about the answer to this question which I just happened to have gotten an answer to yesterday.

The question is (essentially) "Can license-holders of Chromophone use Chromophone to create sample content with and then resell the output content as sample library products?"

In short, the email I received from AAS encouraged this, with some details. I'm going to paste my entire email and then the entire email response here for the benefit of anyone wondering (although I must say this post is not legal advice):

*MY EMAIL TO AAS:*


> Hello and good day, AAS!
> 
> I don't own Chromaphone 3 but have wanted to for a long time. Right now I am purchasing various hardware and software synthesizers for use making sample pack content (.WAV files meant for distribution to platforms like Splice as well as my own third party sample company I am starting.)
> 
> ...


*AAS EMPLOYEE MARC-PIERRE VERGE'S REPLY:*


> Hello Connor,
> 
> Thank you for your interest in Chromaphone and for checking on the
> license agreement.
> ...


Also, I sent the same email to Madrona Labs about their Kaivo physical modeling synth plugin and Randy's response was even more encouraging:


> Hi Connor,
> 
> All the uses you describe are fine and legal—have fun. If you like, please encourage others to buy Kaivo and do the same. This is not a special permission I’ve giving you but just the ordinary rights you have to use the sound output of an instrument you bought.
> 
> The only things you can’t do legally are presentations that infringe on Madrona Labs trademarks or trade dress such as the Madrona Labs logo, Kaivo’s name and interface. So for you to advertise what you made as a "Kaivo sample pack” or to use the image of Kaivo’s interface would not be allowed. Thanks and credits are not required but are always appreciated.


As a final note, I also sent the same email to Native Instruments about using Reaktor for all the same use cases and their reply was a "canned response" reminder about their EULA which prohibits the reselling of pretty much any sound made by any of their software for any reason, but of course you or a lawyer might have a more-accurate interpretation of the EULA verbiage.

I didn't send this email to any of the other physical-modeling synth makers mentioned in this thread, but I did make a YouTube playlist featuring one video of most of the synths mentioned, as well as one about the Anyma Phi, a hardware desktop physical modeling synth:

"https://YouTube. com/playlist?list=PLrSl5YyAaAgI2IAPUcSURoOz-wKS2jmoz"
(use the link above for the playlist, deleting the extra space, or in the embedded player below you can tap the "3 lines with a play button" to see the playlist of videos I compiled.)


(and of course there's all the mutable instruments modular products, and the Arturia Microfreak which has "Modal Mode" for its physical modeling oscillator mode, in case anyone here is looking for some hardware options besides just the Anyma Phi)


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## Bee_Abney (Sep 26, 2022)

Photosynth said:


> HI Bee, I just registered an account because, after reading through this thread and getting tremendous help in finding PhyMo synth plugins to consider from it, I wanted to let you and any others know about the answer to this question which I just happened to have gotten an answer to yesterday.
> 
> The question is (essentially) "Can license-holders of Chromophone use Chromophone to create sample content with and then resell the output content as sample library products?"
> 
> ...



Thank you so much for registering to share all of this great information. I hope you choose to stick around if anything else takes your interest here!

This is really interesting; but in some ways surprising, especially since you mentioned tweaked presets. The received wisdom amongst preset designers and sample pack makers seems to be that you should always start from Init (or some 'blank' version of the synth) before designing anything that you intend yourself to sell as a preset or sample.

Randy from Madrona Labs was very clear, though; so even if I stick to built-from-scratch patches, I'd feel very comfortable using Madrona Labs synths. Which is yet another reason to love them!

Native Instruments' response was predictable but frustrating. It goes beyond the EULA, but can be seen (and by many has been understood) to be an interpretation of that EULA. Just how far can some support worker's learned response constitute a legal interpretation of the EULA? I don't know. It all seems undone by the fact that they allow third-party preset packs. Or, in other words, they don't defend the rights that the support worker claimed they have. Repeated claims to have those rights (copyright ownership of other people's work with their software) are not sufficient to establish them in law unless they are defended. But I wouldn't bet my life on it...

Once again, thank you so much. You've reinvigorated my interest in Madrona Labs and Applied Acoustic Systems for these purposes! Sorry it took me a few days to respond.

And once again, nice to have you around these forms!


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## lychee (Nov 14, 2022)

This may be the successor to the Yamaha VL1, what do you think?


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## doctoremmet (Dec 15, 2022)

lychee said:


> This may be the successor to the Yamaha VL1, what do you think?



Yes. I have been temped several times to back this but still haven’t. I keep thinking / asking myself: what does the fact this is hardware actually mean in terms of added value. And so far I’ve managed to resist.

Speaking of the VL1, just noticed this:


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