# Reverb Comparisons



## Rohann (May 10, 2017)

Hi all,

The Eventide Blackhole sale got me thinking: is there a _significant_ difference between many kinds of reverbs? What do you consider essential for:
-All purpose reverb (i.e. adding some to a string section or orchestra for balance or depth)
-Sound design (i.e. adding vast space, adding as a spacey transposed echo layer, etc)
-Whatever else you can think of

I already have TSAR-1, Eventide 2016 Stereo Room, and a Waves reverb I haven't found much use for (one of the free ones), and a stock Studio One Room reverb that doesn't sound that great for larger spaces. Haven't really used TSAR-1 much, Stereo Room sounds great as a general purpose reverb, but I haven't found much that sounds great for sound design or one that can sound both warm or spacey/sparkly and cold. EastWest's Spaces sounds amazing as a convolution reverb, but I'm assuming something algorithmic will likely have more use for instruments with a decent amount of room reverb to begin with.

Is Blackhole a "must have"? Which Valhalla verbs do you love and why? Do you genuinely find them characteristically different enough to use all of them equally?


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## MarcelM (May 10, 2017)

all valhalla verbs are really good. if i were you id try the demos, but you cannot go wrong with all of em.
spaces is ofcourse a good convolution reverb, but if i would buy one now it would be seventh heaven.
in the end its a matter of taste and there are so many options out there.

best algo reverb at the moment might be relab vsr s24, and i suggest you try that one out aswell.


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## Rohann (May 10, 2017)

Heroix said:


> all valhalla verbs are really good. if i were you id try the demos, but you cannot go wrong with all of em.
> spaces is ofcourse a good convolution reverb, but if i would buy one now it would be seventh heaven.
> in the end its a matter of taste and there are so many options out there.
> 
> best algo reverb at the moment might be relab vsr s24, and i suggest you try that one out aswell.


Thanks for the recommendations. I have to press though -- what really differentiates them? Is it subtle? I always hear Valhalla recommended, but to what degree are many similar reverbs "better" than the next? Are there more options available for tweaking, or is it subtle? I sometimes have a hard time trying to understand the $100 price between certain verbs that people recommend.


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## MarcelM (May 10, 2017)

Rohann said:


> Thanks for the recommendations. I have to press though -- what really differentiates them? Is it subtle? I always hear Valhalla recommended, but to what degree are many similar reverbs "better" than the next? Are there more options available for tweaking, or is it subtle? I sometimes have a hard time trying to understand the $100 price between certain verbs that people recommend.



differences in reverb are often subtle and as i said its a matter of taste sometimes. you should really demo all of em and make a decision on your own.

i personally use lexicon pcm (love the lush sound and the depth) and if i reach for an convo i use reverberate 2 with its m7 impulses (havent bought seventh heaven yet).

i consider buying seventh heaven and vsr s24 but differences are not that big that i need them instantly, so i probably wait for black friday or some other sale.

i used valhalla verbs before, but i do like the lexicon better. thats ofcourse my taste


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## gsilbers (May 10, 2017)

Rohann said:


> Thanks for the recommendations. I have to press though -- what really differentiates them? Is it subtle? I always hear Valhalla recommended, but to what degree are many similar reverbs "better" than the next? Are there more options available for tweaking, or is it subtle? I sometimes have a hard time trying to understand the $100 price between certain verbs that people recommend.



the algorithmn would be the short answer. those reverbs would grab the sound and multiply it and also modulate each reflection several hundred sof times. the more number crunching code it has the better. some are too much. 
but valhalla is light and still gives a nice sound. but its also a matter of taste. i did a shoot out one day i downloaded tons of reverb demos and decided for myself. i liked convolution reverbs as well. but taste also changes! 
i am liking the slate digital verb classics m7 sunset room preset which is modeled after the bricasti reverb. it gives a brighter sheen to everything. but i also love the pcm lexicon. the relab is also good. 
to be honest i think i could just go by with the lexicon. but took me a lot of other reverbs to figure it out. i would still use other ones. 
but a good reverb will add that realism...not in reality-concert sense... but in sounds like a pro record type of sense.


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## Rohann (May 10, 2017)

gsilbers said:


> the algorithmn would be the short answer. those reverbs would grab the sound and multiply it and also modulate each reflection several hundred sof times. the more number crunching code it has the better. some are too much.
> but valhalla is light and still gives a nice sound. but its also a matter of taste. i did a shoot out one day i downloaded tons of reverb demos and decided for myself. i liked convolution reverbs as well. but taste also changes!
> i am liking the slate digital verb classics m7 sunset room preset which is modeled after the bricasti reverb. it gives a brighter sheen to everything. but i also love the pcm lexicon. the relab is also good.
> to be honest i think i could just go by with the lexicon. but took me a lot of other reverbs to figure it out. i would still use other ones.
> but a good reverb will add that realism...not in reality-concert sense... but in sounds like a pro record type of sense.


Interesting, I'll have to check out Lexicon too.

Any comments on reverbs for sound design? It's one area I've noticed not all will do the job. Some reverbs sound quite hissy with larger sizes and I find it harder to get a warm sound out of some despite playing with EQ.


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## MarcelM (May 10, 2017)

some people swear on adaptiverb for sound design.


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## gsilbers (May 10, 2017)

Heroix said:


> some people swear on adaptiverb for sound design.



yes, i am trying the demo and its pretty good.


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## gsilbers (May 10, 2017)

Rohann said:


> Interesting, I'll have to check out Lexicon too.
> 
> Any comments on reverbs for sound design? It's one area I've noticed not all will do the job. Some reverbs sound quite hissy with larger sizes and I find it harder to get a warm sound out of some despite playing with EQ.



The 2C audio verbs are good for sound design.. 
also convolution reverbs you can add any IR (wav file) that can do very good sound design.


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## desert (May 10, 2017)

Rohann said:


> Hi all,
> 
> The Eventide Blackhole sale got me thinking



What's the sale?


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## Rohann (May 10, 2017)

desert said:


> What's the sale?


$47


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## tack (May 10, 2017)

I'm also won over by the Lexicon PCM for a warm richness that I haven't quite been able to recreate in the other reverbs I own. Large RHall 3 on piano is still, after all these months, compelling to play. I got somewhat close with ValhallaVintageVerb and some EQ treatment, but although the sound was superficially similar it was overly muddy and still lacked that lush depth of the Lexicon. 

I had resisted the Lexicon for so long for many reasons: iLok requirement, it's old, it seemed (and still seems) overpriced, especially because it's no longer being developed. But if you can pick it up on sale (under $200), I'd take a close look at it as it still seems to offer something not easily found elsewhere.


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## desert (May 10, 2017)

Rohann said:


> $47


I meant the link haha


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## desert (May 10, 2017)

Rohann said:


> Is Blackhole a "must have"? Which Valhalla verbs do you love and why? Do you genuinely find them characteristically different enough to use all of them equally?


Valhalla Vintage is up there with the best of the best. (Only $50 too)


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## storyteller (May 10, 2017)

Rohann said:


> Hi all,
> Is Blackhole a "must have"? Which Valhalla verbs do you love and why? Do you genuinely find them characteristically different enough to use all of them equally?



I personally think so. Shimmer is good too, but they have different uses. I turn to Blackhole more.


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## Rohann (May 10, 2017)

desert said:


> I meant the link haha


https://www.eventideaudio.com/promo/reverb_sale



desert said:


> Valhalla Vintage is up there with the best of the best. (Only $50 too)


I'm assuming it covers warmer textures? I'd assume I probably don't need Valhalla Room, but I'm seriously considering Vintage and Shimmer.



storyteller said:


> I personally think so. Shimmer is good too, but they have different uses. I turn to Blackhole more.


Good to know. How would their uses differ, in your opinion?

Also, is $47 cheap for Blackhole? It's not going to be a "free plugin" for Black Friday or something is it ?


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## desert (May 10, 2017)

Rohann said:


> https://www.eventideaudio.com/promo/reverb_sale
> 
> 
> I'm assuming it covers warmer textures? I'd assume I probably don't need Valhalla Room, but I'm seriously considering Vintage and Shimmer.



There are three "time periods" settings - 70s, 80s and modern, to which, if I remember, one of them has a warmer sound.


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## storyteller (May 10, 2017)

Rohann said:


> Good to know. How would their uses differ, in your opinion?
> 
> Also, is $47 cheap for Blackhole? It's not going to be a "free plugin" for Black Friday or something is it ?


They are both going to sound close, but I tend to think of shimmer as a "humid lush" sound, where I tend to think of blackhole as "spacey, echo-y lush." I mean, they both sound very similar so take that like a wine connoisseur might could identify certain regions for grapes, etc. As a personal use-case example, I'd use Blackhole on a closed, upright piano rather than Shimmer, whereas I'd turn to Shimmer first on background vocals instead of Blackhole for that particular type of effect. To each their own though! $47 is the cheapest I have seen it. It was $49 during their Black Friday/Christmas sale this past year but I don't think its on sale all too often. Shimmer is always $50. So I think Blackhole is a great buy-now "opportunity" price.


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## MusikLover (May 10, 2017)

Rohann said:


> Interesting, I'll have to check out Lexicon too.
> 
> Any comments on reverbs for sound design? It's one area I've noticed not all will do the job. Some reverbs sound quite hissy with larger sizes and I find it harder to get a warm sound out of some despite playing with EQ.



Keep in mind that you already have TSAR-1, and thus there is some overlap with certain Lex, EMT, AMS, Eventide, and other vintage models of the world. You really might want to check it out a bit more in your mixes. However, everyone has their own take. Here are are two relatively recent reviews:

http://www.everythingrecording.com/revi ... -tsar-11r/

"In use, I found TSAR-1 to be one of the easiest reverb plugins to use. I was relying less on presets like I do in most reverb plugins and simply making my own. Softube has made a plugin that is very easy to achieve the exact space you are hearing in your head. TSAR-1 doesn’t have a setting that sounds remotely bad. Turn the knobs in just about any combination and you have a space that is useable in many situations… it may not be the current situation but you will find yourself saying, “I need to remember that one” quite a bit. It really is great to have a reverb plugin that “just works masterfully”, but Softube didn’t stop there…"

http://getthatprosound.com/the-10-best- ... the-world/

"Best Vintage Or ‘Character’ Reverb: Several of the plugins on this list could arguably lay claim to this category, but special mention has to go to Softube’s TSAR-1. A point worth noting about the TSAR-1 is that, unlike the UA EMT 140 Plate for example, it’s not a straight ’emulation’ of any one piece of celebrated vintage gear. Rather, it takes the common characteristics of much of the best-loved classics, and brings them all together with a highly useable, somehow ‘authentic’ sound (if that’s not an oxymoron?), and a very cool interface. The best of all worlds, and perhaps an example of where more plugin designers will (hopefully) go in the future."


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## lp59burst (May 10, 2017)

I got it from AudioDeluxe for under $40 with discount code MAY2017


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## Rohann (May 10, 2017)

storyteller said:


> They are both going to sound close, but I tend to* think of shimmer as a "humid lush" sound, where I tend to think of blackhole as "spacey, echo-y lush."* I mean, they both sound very similar so take that like a wine connoisseur might could identify certain regions for grapes, etc. As a personal use-case example, I'd use Blackhole on a closed, upright piano rather than Shimmer, whereas I'd turn to Shimmer first on background vocals instead of Blackhole for that particular type of effect. To each their own though! $47 is the cheapest I have seen it. It was $49 during their Black Friday/Christmas sale this past year but I don't think its on sale all too often. Shimmer is always $50. So I think Blackhole is a great buy-now "opportunity" price.


Your descriptions on what you'd use it for are practical (thank you), but the bolded part, believe it or not, is probably one of the most helpful ways of describing what it sounds like. Thanks, that gives a great idea of what they're like.



MusikLover said:


> Keep in mind that you already have TSAR-1, and thus there is some overlap with certain Lex, EMT, AMS, Eventide, and other vintage models of the world. You really might want to check it out a bit more in your mixes. However, everyone has their own take. Here are are two relatively recent reviews:
> 
> http://www.everythingrecording.com/revi ... -tsar-11r/
> 
> ...


Thank you for this! I got it in a free bundle from Softube and, typical human irony, I didn't pay that much attention to it as Stereo Room had a bit more customization options and I truthfully sort of forgot about TSAR-1. I definitely will pay more attention to it, thank you!

So, with the relatively "clean" 2016 Stereo Room and the vintage TSAR-1, would you consider Blackhole or Shimmer on top of this as really adding anything of value (i.e. worth $50)? Blackhole and Shimmer seem to have some less-realistic effect options for texture that the others may not.

EDIT: This makes more sense: I have TSAR-1R, not TSAR-1 (which looks to be much more fully functional, unsurprisingly). TSAR-1R still sounds pretty good, but with really quite basic settings and not many options.


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## MusikLover (May 10, 2017)

Rohann said:


> Your descriptions on what you'd use it for are practical (thank you), but the bolded part, believe it or not, is probably one of the most helpful ways of describing what it sounds like. Thanks, that gives a great idea of what they're like.
> 
> 
> Thank you for this! I got it in a free bundle from Softube and, typical human irony, I didn't pay that much attention to it as Stereo Room had a bit more customization options and I truthfully sort of forgot about TSAR-1. I definitely will pay more attention to it, thank you!
> ...



The lighter version would be good for Halls I bet. Regarding Blackhole or Shimmer, have you considered going another route and purchasing Sean's Valhalla Plate? I would like to purchase one of his products and believe I narrowed it down. I currently tend to rely on convolution or Metric Halo for plates, and they both handle the task well enough. Mr. Costello's model seems to approach UAD's EMT 140 pay grade, however. 

Nothing beats a good plate.


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## sazema (May 11, 2017)

Heroix said:


> differences in reverb are often subtle and as i said its a matter of taste sometimes. you should really demo all of em and make a decision on your own.
> 
> i personally use lexicon pcm (love the lush sound and the depth) and if i reach for an convo i use reverberate 2 with its m7 impulses (havent bought seventh heaven yet).
> 
> ...



+1 Lexicon PCM


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## Joram (May 11, 2017)

Rohann said:


> The Eventide Blackhole sale got me thinking: is there a _significant_ difference between many kinds of reverbs?


Yes there is a difference which depends on the algorithm used to create the reverb. There is a world of difference between an algorithm that computes reflections (Lexicon and TC for example) and an algorithm that computes resonances in a room (Quantec). See also http://www.quantec.com/?id=room_simulation 



Rohann said:


> I already have TSAR-1, Eventide 2016 Stereo Room, and a Waves reverb I haven't found much use for (one of the free ones), and a stock Studio One Room reverb that doesn't sound that great for larger spaces. Haven't really used TSAR-1 much, Stereo Room sounds great as a general purpose reverb, but I haven't found much that sounds great for sound design or one that can sound both warm or spacey/sparkly and cold. EastWest's Spaces sounds amazing as a convolution reverb, but I'm assuming something algorithmic will likely have more use for instruments with a decent amount of room reverb to begin with.


So you have two very different sounding all purpose reverbs. You could use the convolution reverb for specific reverb presets of hardware equipment or for special effects.



Rohann said:


> Is Blackhole a "must have"? Which Valhalla verbs do you love and why? Do you genuinely find them characteristically different enough to use all of them equally?


Nothing is a musthave. Both the Blackhole and the shimmer are quite good for sound design. Pick one.


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## Chandler (May 11, 2017)

I've been making presets/algorhithms for an upcoming reverb plugin, so I've been quite a bit of research. There are a lot of differences between reverbs. In fact from what I've seen they are pretty much a black box. I'd guess most commercial reverbs(algorithmic) are different and can't sound exactly the same. Of course there some that sound similar. The basic thing IMO is realistic vs surreal and reverb types. 

Some reverbs sound like real rooms and spaces, which IMO works well when you have a dry recording and want it to sound like it has some space sound it. Others are more like effects that don't sound real, but can create a beautiful sound. Then of course there are halls, rooms, chambers, plates and even springs. 

The one I've been working on should be available in a few weeks and IMO it is more versatile than anything else. If you're looking for a reverb for sound design, you might want to wait for it. Of course it can do normal reverbs too. If nothing else it has more algorithms than any other reverb in history.


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## MusikLover (May 12, 2017)

Rohann said:


> Your descriptions on what you'd use it for are practical (thank you), but the bolded part, believe it or not, is probably one of the most helpful ways of describing what it sounds like. Thanks, that gives a great idea of what they're like.
> 
> 
> Thank you for this! I got it in a free bundle from Softube and, typical human irony, I didn't pay that much attention to it as Stereo Room had a bit more customization options and I truthfully sort of forgot about TSAR-1. I definitely will pay more attention to it, thank you!
> ...



FYI -- I made the decision and purchased Valhalla's Plate. There are many, many plates to choose from, you can have mono / dual mono, stereo, and traditional. I'm finding this one complements TSAR-1 more than VVV and fits in nicely with anyone's collection if they truly like their plates.

This model is special in that you can have extremely long decay times, up to 30s. Evidently, Sean too included many aspects associated with Chambers, so this one could even pass for more SFX / Sound Design. Most of the traditional plates have a decay of much less than 30s, of course. 

He hit a home run IMHO.


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## Rohann (May 14, 2017)

Joram said:


> Yes there is a difference which depends on the algorithm used to create the reverb. There is a world of difference between an algorithm that computes reflections (Lexicon and TC for example) and an algorithm that computes resonances in a room (Quantec). See also http://www.quantec.com/?id=room_simulation


Excuse my ignorance in the production side of things. So would a room-simulating algorithmic reverb behave more similarly to a convolution reverb (or perhaps not behave similarly, but sound similar to)?



> So you have two very different sounding all purpose reverbs. You could use the convolution reverb for specific reverb presets of hardware equipment or for special effects.


I actually have TSAR-1R. TSAR-1 looks great actually, but TSAR-1R has very little customization options.



> Nothing is a musthave. Both the Blackhole and the shimmer are quite good for sound design. Pick one.


True, but some things are "great to have"-s. Good to know. Shimmer does grab my attention due to its ability to pitch-shift feedback. Does anyone have input on particular things they've found either are useful for in a "special" sense?

Oh I should add, on Audiodeluxe there's an automatic "May 2017" coupon that gets added so Blackhole is $40.


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## Cruciform (May 14, 2017)

Rohann said:


> True, but some things are "great to have"-s. Good to know. Shimmer does grab my attention due to its ability to pitch-shift feedback. Does anyone have input on particular things they've found either are useful for in a "special" sense?
> 
> Oh I should add, on Audiodeluxe there's an automatic "May 2017" coupon that gets added so Blackhole is $40.



Shimmer and Blackhole are similar in control. I find Shimmer is brighter with more shimmer/glisten/crystalline. Blackhole is darker and deeper, less granular sounding. Having both I don't find I reach for one over the other. I use them to get different sounds.


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## Joram (May 14, 2017)

Rohann said:


> Excuse my ignorance in the production side of things. So would a room-simulating algorithmic reverb behave more similarly to a convolution reverb (or perhaps not behave similarly, but sound similar to)?


A convolution reverb is actually a impulse response-player. It has not much to do with algorithms.



Rohann said:


> I actually have TSAR-1R. TSAR-1 looks great actually, but TSAR-1R has very little customization options.


Didn't know that. You could upgrade perhaps.



Rohann said:


> Oh I should add, on Audiodeluxe there's an automatic "May 2017" coupon that gets added so Blackhole is $40.


Use it


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## bvaughn0402 (May 15, 2017)

I had heard great things about Acousticas' Lexicon 300 IRs for Logic Space Designer.

But I looked it up to purchase, and it looks like the company folded many years ago.

Anyone have these and willing to part with them?


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## Rohann (May 15, 2017)

MusikLover said:


> The lighter version would be good for Halls I bet. Regarding Blackhole or Shimmer, have you considered going another route and purchasing Sean's Valhalla Plate? I would like to purchase one of his products and believe I narrowed it down. I currently tend to rely on convolution or Metric Halo for plates, and they both handle the task well enough. Mr. Costello's model seems to approach UAD's EMT 140 pay grade, however.
> 
> Nothing beats a good plate.


Honestly, I didn't have that much time to get into production education (something I need to do more of) and so running into all the different forms of algorithmic reverb, I noticed Blackhole had another May discount on Audiodeluxe and just bought that one. In the end, Valhalla still sits at that fantastic price so I'll likely own them later too. How do you find the plate sounds compared to Shimmer or Blackhole or others? Blackhole won me over with the automatable effects and the like, excited to explore it.



Cruciform said:


> Shimmer and Blackhole are similar in control. I find Shimmer is brighter with more shimmer/glisten/crystalline. Blackhole is darker and deeper, less granular sounding. Having both I don't find I reach for one over the other. I use them to get different sounds.


Good to know! I'll likely buy both in the end then. Always happy to end up with more varied tools.


Joram said:


> A convolution reverb is actually a impulse response-player. It has not much to do with algorithms.


I should clarify -- I shouldn't have said "behave like", I meant "sound like". I suppose a reverb IR will essentially sound the same every time, whereas a Room algorithm will be slightly more varied?


> Didn't know that. You could upgrade perhaps.


Good point! I think I may. TSAR-1 sounds quite nice. Will have to compare it to Vintage Verb, though I'm kind of still in the dark as to the practical differences (sound wise) between Vintage, Room, Plate and Shimmer other than the obvious (Shimmer sounding huge and otherworldly, etc).


> Use it


I did .

I also looked into the Lexicon verbs but at $200ish they're not really a consideration compared to these right now.


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## GP_Hawk (May 15, 2017)

You should checkout Seventh Heaven also for comparison. Theres a demo version and not sure if the sale is still on. Nice extension to my M7 hardware


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## Rohann (May 20, 2017)

Thanks all for the recommendations. I'll look into Lexicon if it goes on sale, but pretty happy with 2016 Room, TSAR-1R and Blackhole for now. Blackhole has some interesting automation options available and is more tweakable than I originally thought. I'd recommend it.


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