# Convolution Reverbs Shootout?



## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 21, 2008)

I would love to listen to a comparison between a few convolution reverbs. They would all have to use the same IR. I realize this may be impossible, as, unless I'm wrong, some of the more expensive ones use proprietary formats for their IRs. Can anyone who has more than one help out with this? I only have Logic's Space Designer.


----------



## Frederick Russ (Dec 21, 2008)

Ned - Altiverb VI has virtually everything you need - from scoring stages like Todd AO to very clear and clean lush reverbs like Lexicon 480 and Phillips hall. Most all the patches of the rooms have multiple mic positions so you can place a few on your busses and mix accordingly. I have several reverb types (Wizoo W2, Waves IR, Altiverb, Space Designer and VSS3) but in terms of sheer versatility, Altiverb is hard to beat and there is a wealth of impulse responses online for users.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 21, 2008)

Frederick Russ @ 21/12/2008 said:


> I have several reverb types (Wizoo W2, Waves IR, Altiverb, Space Designer and VSS3)



HA, so you're the perfect candidate for this test!! :lol: 

OK, well, I just wanted to get to the bottom of this question I have as to whether there is a difference in the sound, and if that difference is related to the IRs themselves or the engine/settings/filters, etc. 

Over at Gearslutz, someone mentioned that true convolution is very hard to pull off:



> They sound different - some are harsher than others.
> 
> As I understand it, the mathematics for doing true convolution is too intensive to do properly, so shortcuts are always taken. It's the quality of those shortcuts that makes the difference. Similar to different levels of mp3 conversion ...


----------



## Daryl (Dec 21, 2008)

One thing to be aware of; convolutions IRs of hardware units do not sound like the real thing.

I think that for putting things in a space Altiverb does a very good job, but having just done a comparison using a Bricasti M7 vs. Lexicon PCM96 vs. Altiverb, I came to the conclusion that the best combination for me was Altiverb + Bricasti.

Another thing to remember, is that it depends what samples you are using. Most of my orchestral stuff is VSL, and this reacts very well to the above combination. If I was using more ambient samples, I might have a different view.

D


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 21, 2008)

RE: Bricasti: 3,600 $ >8o :mrgreen:


----------



## Daryl (Dec 21, 2008)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sun Dec 21 said:


> RE: Bricasti: 3,600 $ >8o :mrgreen:


Ah well, if you're going to be a cheapskate. :D 

D


----------



## Ashermusic (Dec 21, 2008)

A less expensive solution that I am liking is Altiverb into the UAD Plate 140, which is gorgeous. And if you just a touch of the UAD Roland Dimension D to the Plate, it starts to kind of have a Lexicon-ish sound when you want that glossy pop sheen.


----------



## Jack Weaver (Dec 21, 2008)

Hey Ned,

Yes, that's a lot of money for one instance of reverb, but there are obvious benefits involved with that also. 

#1 besides having the best reverb available (I can say that from experience and without equivication) you can:

#2 print multiple tracks of it in Logic via bouncing. 

#3 Did I say that it kills _everything _else, yet?

#4 The really great thing about buying hardware - and especially the high end stuff that everyone loves - is that if you need to you can sell it and recoup 80-90% of what you paid for it. [Gearslutz has set a clear market level for every type of professional audio hardware and has a ready market.] Try that with your favorite software or VI library! It's really a good monetary investment. I shudder every time I buy software now, knowing that it really is money down the drain - except for its usefulness. 


Current favorite way of adding reverb - using SvK's method of sending a stem or instrument subgroupto 2 instance of Altiverb (one ER only, one Tails) - then another send to the Bricasti for an overall effect.


----------



## Daryl (Dec 21, 2008)

Jack Weaver @ Sun Dec 21 said:


> Current favorite way of adding reverb - using SvK's method of sending a stem or instrument subgroupto 2 instance of Altiverb (one ER only, one Tails) - then another send to the Bricasti for an overall effect.


I'm currently using Altiverb + panning for placement, AV for some tail and Bricasti for the rest of the tail (via sends). Still tweaks to be done, but so far I like the sound.

The PCM96 sounded great on drums, but didn't give the same feeling of space with the orchestral samples.

Altiverb sounds pretty good, although when I A/B the tails with the Bricasti, this is where the difference showed up the most.

D


----------



## Daryl (Dec 21, 2008)

This is all becoming rather O/T, but suffice it to say that IMO you can't go wrong with Altiverb, although it can be quite hungry, if your set-up is underpowered.

D


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 21, 2008)

Aaaargh! You guys are frustrating me! It's either Altiverb or a (let's be honest) quite expensive outboard unit. :? So, call me a cheapskate, but there really is no alternative to spending more than 500 beaners*?









* astute hockey fans may notice this subtle reference to an outstanding black and gold nhl team.


----------



## Jack Weaver (Dec 21, 2008)

Hi Daryl,

The current lineup of reverb here is Space Designer, Altiverb, PoCo VSS3 & 
DVR2, PCM 96 and Bricasti. 

And I would agree with you that using combinations of Altiverb + Bricasti is the way to go. I do end up taking the extra time to print reverb bounces with the Bricasti. 

The PCM 96 is really good also. It seems to be a bit more suited to a pop sound rather than orchestral. However before I had the Bricasti it was the one to use in combination with the Altiverb. 

Also it is nice being able to use two instances of the PCM 96 simultaneously via FW. 

I did an interesting test of reverbs. I took a whole kit out of Toontracks Superior 2 and put it into a plate setting of all the different reverbs. Now that was a true test of all the reverbs! The software reverbs were, well...soft. The Lexicon was leaps ahead of all the software. The Bricasti was unbelievably solid.

EDIT:

Ned, 
Altiverb still makes the whole thing work right. It's the underpinning of the whole sound. Without it (IMO) the hardware reverbs wouldn't be able to make the same magic. 
Check out SvK's threads on Altiverb. It really is a great way to go. Besides myself I think that Rob Elliot uses this method -and probably a lot of others.


----------



## Frederick Russ (Dec 21, 2008)

On the flip side, Altiverb can be an insatiable hungry monster too although I love what it does. Same with Wizoo W2 and Waves IR. More than ever I use VSS3 (TC6000 emulation on a Powercore Card) because I can get up to 4 instances of earlies (early and loose reflections) where the processing stays with the CPU on the card, and let Altiverb or Wizoo handle the lush long tails. Waves IR and Altiverb also have super clean tails from Lexicon 480 models - probably not the same as the real deal but close enough where it doesn't alter the EQ of your mix substantially especially for different genres of music. With me its always balancing high performance over economy - if you have a strong DAW your options are more plentiful.


----------



## Daryl (Dec 21, 2008)

Jack Weaver @ Sun Dec 21 said:


> Hi Daryl,
> 
> The current lineup of reverb here is Space Designer, Altiverb, PoCo VSS3 &
> DVR2, PCM 96 and Bricasti.
> ...


Yes, it may well be that I end up getting an extra unit. I'm not sure yet.



Jack Weaver @ Sun Dec 21 said:


> The PCM 96 is really good also. It seems to be a bit more suited to a pop sound rather than orchestral. However before I had the Bricasti it was the one to use in combination with the Altiverb.
> 
> Also it is nice being able to use two instances of the PCM 96 simultaneously via FW.


I much preferred the Lex on drums. However, as my next project doesn't really feature the drums it seems an unnecessary expense to get both units. Unfortunately the Firewire option is not available (yet?) in Windows.



Jack Weaver @ Sun Dec 21 said:


> I did an interesting test of reverbs. I took a whole kit out of Toontracks Superior 2 and put it into a plate setting of all the different reverbs. Now that was a true test of all the reverbs! The software reverbs were, well...soft. The Lexicon was leaps ahead of all the software. The Bricasti was unbelievably solid.


[/quote]
Yes I can imagine the difference in sound.

D


----------



## Daryl (Dec 21, 2008)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sun Dec 21 said:


> Aaaargh! You guys are frustrating me! It's either Altiverb or a (let's be honest) quite expensive outboard unit. :? So, call me a cheapskate, but there really is no alternative to spending more than 500 beaners*?


Ned, I totally understand your frustration, but by using samples you are already taking the cheap option.  

I tell you what. I would suggest that you hire one of these outboard units and spend a day with it. Print the reverb return from your mix. Then try to get the same result with your software reverb. That will then give you an idea of what works and what doesn't. You will then be in a better position to know what to listen for when you are auditioning software reverbs.

D


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 21, 2008)

Oy vey! So, I suppose a nice combo would be Altiverb with a 2nd-hand Lexicon, like the PCM70. That's like 1,300 +. OK. I suppose you're right, Daryl: I've saved 150 times as much by using samples instead of players...


----------



## Daryl (Dec 21, 2008)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sun Dec 21 said:


> Oy vey! So, I suppose a nice combo would be Altiverb with a 2nd-hand Lexicon, like the PCM70. That's like 1,300 +. OK. I suppose you're right, Daryl: I've saved 150 times as much by using samples instead of players...


Just watch for the inputs to the old Lex units. Some of them are mono in only, and you have to do a bit of software jiggery-pokery to make it all work.

FWIW my PCM70 is mostly used as a spacer in the rack, as I prefer Altiverb to anything that the Lex provides. However, if it was a PCM91, that would be another story.

D


----------



## Peter Emanuel Roos (Dec 21, 2008)

Hehe, Daryl, lol,

I have had the Lex960 and the TCE 6000 in my modest studio, sampled them, and worked for 4 weeks on producing each of the IR libs. Since I made reference tracks, white noise recordings etc. to compare the final result with the original units, I can tell you that you really CAN capture the sound of such beasts.

Since there is so much crap on the web with respect to amateur "spiked" recordings I can imagine that you don't believe it can be done, but you have to invest a lot in reading literature, experimenting, recording long sweeps, editing, serious processing etc. And then the results can be very very close to the original units.

Unfortunately you can never capture subtle modulation effects, which are inherently incompatible with the mathematics behind IRs (non-linear effects cannot be captured with FIRs).

My very partial 2 cents


----------



## synthetic (Dec 21, 2008)

Be careful with PCM70s, you can't get them repaired anymore. You're better off saving for a PCM96 or PCM96 Surround. The latter is my current dream...


----------



## Lex (Dec 22, 2008)

hmm...am I the only one using Voxengo Pristine Space as convo?

aLex


----------



## Peter Emanuel Roos (Dec 22, 2008)

No, read above... me too, several true stereo instances on a dedicated PC. Low latency, below 50% CPU - rock solid and excellent sound


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 22, 2008)

I'm a convert! Now looking for a second-hand Lexicon MXP-1. 8)


----------



## Daryl (Dec 22, 2008)

Peter Roos @ Sun Dec 21 said:


> Since there is so much crap on the web with respect to amateur "spiked" recordings I can imagine that you don't believe it can be done, but you have to invest a lot in reading literature, experimenting, recording long sweeps, editing, serious processing etc. And then the results can be very very close to the original units.


Errrrrrrrr, I have your impulses. :oops: 

D


----------



## Bo Clausen (Dec 22, 2008)

Well I'm using Voxengo Pristine Space too, together with the Lex960 and the TCE 6000 IR libs, that Peter made.
This is absolutly sounding great!!

Ned - go to Voxengo and download the full working demo of Pristine Space.
And then go to Samplicity (Peters site) and download his free demo IRs.

I really think you should try it.

Best regards
Bo


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 22, 2008)

Bo,

I already have Peter's TC collection, and they are great.

But as for Pristine, it's PC-only, and I'm a die-hard Mac man since the late 80s... :wink:


----------



## Peter Emanuel Roos (Dec 22, 2008)

Daryl, I know you have them, but I wanted to explain that it IS possible to capture the sound of hardware reverbs but also that there is a lot of bad stuff on the web that can make you believe it's not possible.

Thanks guys, for the thumbs up 

Ned, as always, you look really great!


----------



## lee (Dec 22, 2008)

I´ve been wondering about what it is that altiverb does to enable placing instrument on different places in space? If you dont have IRs from different posititions that kind of spatial magic isnt possible with pristine space, right?

/Johnny


----------



## Stephen Baysted (Dec 22, 2008)

Ned, 

You might also want to find a last of the line new TC M3000 or even a second hand one; they've come down massively in price and they sound great. The M4000 is really superb and in general I prefer the TC reverbs to the Lexicons - to me they sound cleaner and less coloured.

The Bricasti is simply amazing though.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 22, 2008)

Well, Scrooge McDuck has made up his mind! I'm picking up a studio-used Lexicon mpx-1 for 400 cdn and will combine it with Altiverb in the new year. Thanks for all the advice! 

* I'd still like to hear a convo shootout, though...


----------



## Bo Clausen (Dec 22, 2008)

Oh - sorry abouth the PC/Mac problem. :( 

Just to let you know - Aleksey (Voxengo) is in the middle of upgrading all his Plug'ins
so they also work on the Mac.

Go and check it out - there is two free ones "Overtone GEQ" and "Sound Delay" and full working demos of "VariSaturator" - "Crunchessor" - "Elephant" - "LF Max Punch"

Pristine Space is no Mac yet. :( 

- Bo


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 26, 2008)

I'm really enjoying using my new Lexicon for reverb - only downside? Goodbye offline bounce. :cry:


----------



## Daryl (Dec 26, 2008)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Fri Dec 26 said:


> I'm really enjoying using my new Lexicon for reverb - only downside? Goodbye offline bounce. :cry:


True, but surely you'd want to listen to your mixes as they go down anyway?

D


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 26, 2008)

True, most of the time. But there are times when I don't need to, for smaller pop/rock stuff (RMX + guitars/bass, for eg). Then again, for those, I can always go back to convolution-only.


----------



## Daryl (Dec 26, 2008)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Fri Dec 26 said:


> True, most of the time. But there are times when I don't need to, for smaller pop/rock stuff (RMX + guitars/bass, for eg). Then again, for those, I can always go back to convolution-only.


I suppose that it would depend on the length of the track how much extra time it would take. I know people who never do a mixdown (bounce), because they just record from busses instead. Sure it takes the time the track takes to play in real time to do the mixdown, but you also have your effects such as reverb printed on separate tracks for archiving.

D


----------

