# Building my first real home studio!



## Ryan (Dec 3, 2019)

Hi all,

I've been away from this forum for some time now. 

I have been so fortunate to get the opportunity to build my own little studio in my house. The reason for this is that we had to enlarge our house a bit because of the kids. So, in this case I had the chance to build a fitting room for my needs at the same time.

The control room will be around 8,3 M2, and my living room would be used as a recording space (smaller groups or solo instruments). Over the past year I've been planning it out with our contractor. My main goal was soundproofing it as good as possible from the rest of the house. This because I have small kids. After some planning with the contractor we decided to float the concrete so it is totally isolated from the rest of the house. He also suggested to build the walls separated from each other.

So, here comes the questions: Acoustic treatment and bass-traps. I don't want the room to get to "pimped" with treatment. I want it to be a calm and creative place to be in. What are my options regarding acoustic treatment?
PS: monitors are a pair of PSI Audio A17-M.

Wire in all my gear.. Patchbay (hallelujah). I got a vintage analog console that I use nearly on a daily basis. I often route my stuff trough it and into compressors, eq, effects etc. What are the best patchbays to get? the easiest to setup etc. Soundcards RME adi-8 DSmk2 and digiface etc. You get the idea.
That mixer also got some of the best preamps one may get, so I should maybe get a XLR patchbay to easy navigate to my mic inputs on demand?

I will most likely ask more question down the road.

For the ones who are interested in some picture of the building process. In that first picture (picture taken May) you could see the yellow insulation to the right where the concrete gets isolated from the rest of the building. Make sure to follow me for updates on the build 



Best
Ryan


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 3, 2019)

Coolio.

By the way, l'entrepreneur = contractor in English.  We use entrepreneur to mean someone who launches a new business.


----------



## Ryan (Dec 3, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Coolio.
> 
> By the way, l'entrepreneur = contractor in English.  We use entrepreneur to mean someone who launches a new business.



Ahh, Thanks for the heads up.


----------



## mc_deli (Dec 3, 2019)

Ryan said:


> Ahh, Thanks for the heads up.


Have you spent some time on the John Sayers forum? It is an amazing place to learn about details and have your plans dissected.

The pic looks like you have an extension or add-on to the house, which seems a bit odd with then a "floated" concrete floor (which usually means springs or similar). You are obviously spending a lot of money. I hope your your contractor is experienced. Good luck. Sounds exciting.


----------



## Pier (Dec 3, 2019)

I'm no expert but here is a little intro.

First it's a good idea to buy a calibrated mic. There are decent ones for as little as $20 (see this one). A good one is not too expensive either but it might not make sense if you are not doing this professionally. Get the software RoomEQ Wizard which is free and easy to use.

Ideally you should have non parallel walls/floor/ceiling to reduce low frequency modes. Hopefully you did take that into account before building because otherwise LF are difficult to tame and generally speaking are very difficult to fix with just absorption.

For small room treatment you have 2 options: absorption and diffusion. As how you much you want of each is a difficult thing to say. You should probably do it gradually until you are happy with the sound, or pay an expert 

Absorption is basically porous materials that reduce the energy of the waves every time they go through it and bounce through the room. You do not want your room to be completely dead by putting too much absorption. To use absorption for LF you need a lot of fluffy material (rock wool, glass fibers, etc) and also leave a gap between the material and the wall. The idea is that absorption works best when the wave is at max velocity which is 1/4 of the wavelength (instead of max pressure which is when the wave hits the wall and bounces). For MF and HF the wavelength is very small, but for LF it can be many feet. This is why usually LF absorption (bass traps) are put on the corners in an angle, to get maximum practical distance between the absorber and the wall. This is also why it's simply not practical to get absorption at very LF. For example, at 80Hz the wavelength is about 4 meters, so you'd need 1 meter (3.3 feet) of space, and it gets bigger the lower the frequency (for 20Hz I believe it's about 17 meters).











As for the absorption material, usually DIYers use Owens Corning 703. You could buy different materials for different purposes. Look at charts for absorption coeffcients.

I built some absorbers a couple of months ago for my home studio. You can check the build and more info here.

Diffusion is when the waves are scattered in different directions. Experts argue real diffusion only occurs when the scattering is equal on all frequencies. So adding random shapes in the room is not really diffusion. Diffusion helps scatter the waves which also reduces the modes. It also confuses our brains and it appears the room is bigger that it really is. The most predictable diffusers are quadratic diffusers.

Diffusion works great for HF and MF, but at LF it's impractical to use diffusion as it would mean you'd lose a lot of space as the diffusers would be huge (again because of the wavelength).

Anyway, once you have figured out the best listening postion you have to position the speakers and the furniture and measure the room with REW. You can also move around the room clapping and listening for any anomalies (metallic reverbs, flutters, small echoes, etc). With the measurements and the clapping you will have a general idea of what problems you need to fix.

I'm sure an expert would laugh at this info and pedestrian methods... but that's the DIY empirical way.

Don't hesitate to ask!


----------



## wst3 (Dec 4, 2019)

ask away!

I designed studios for a while, back when one could make an honest living at it. I also maintained consoles and tape decks. These are, at least where I live, lost arts. I am not bragging (far from it) just trying to establish a baseline. My opinions may well be dated, but they are based on more years in the industry than I will admit. These days I design conference rooms and classrooms, and frankly, the interest in audio continues to wane. I will never understand why.

Soundproofing and acoustical treatment are two very different disciplines, although they do interact. You are wise to start with soundproofing, especially since this is your home.

Mass is the best way to block sound, but mass alone won't do it, you need to block all possible paths, and some of them will fool you. So build massive walls, and keep them as air tight as you can. The best construction is mass-spring-mass, so two walls separated by an air gap is king. While it is counter-intuitive, three walls with two air gaps will degrade your isolation.

The use of two layers of dissimilar materials is a great way to increase isolation. I use two different depths of sheetrock glued together with overlapping seams. If I can't take advantage of a block wall then I will build both walls this way.

The floor and ceiling will prove to be the most complex problem. If you are building on grade then that problem goes away, if you are building above another space you will need to plan accordingly. Floating the floor is not as expensive as you might think.

The ceiling - if there is living space above you then consider suspending a second ceiling, or isolating it completely by attaching it to your inner walls only. I've tried both, and had decent results with both. In one case the family room was above the studio, so we ended up building up the family room floor as well.

If you have windows you will need to use double-pane models, and accept that unless you spend an insane amount they will be your weakest link. Also pay attention to doors, although it is easier (and cheaper) to get them right.

Now is also the time to plan your HVAC system - a separate system is best, a separate, lined duct that takes the long way around is pretty darned good. Split systems have dropped in price and could be a good solution too.

Nothing worse than building a soundproof room and then killing it with a penetration. Plan all your cable paths that cross the boundaries now. Make them mazes if you have to. This includes power, don't forget power.

Which brings us to the acoustical treatment. You want your control room to be natural and neutral at the same time. Good luck. There are many philosophies for the design of critical listening spaces. Learn about them, and pick one. I don't believe there are any real turkeys left, but the designs that survived will sound different.

Do NOT go overboard on absorption, and don't fall prey to the myth that is provides isolation, it doesn't. You have three arrows in your quiver - absorption, reflection, and diffusion, use all three. Learn about the Haas effect, and then design things to keep reflections in the best temporal sequence you can. If you have the luxury of playing with room geometry by all means do so!

Low frequency modes, or standing waves, are a problem. You can not make them go away in any reasonably sized room. So you treat them. Start with broadband absorption and resort to tuned absorbption only if you have to.

This is where I'll suggest hiring an acoustician - the cost of a good measurement microphone is still pretty high, and sorry, those $20 models are not reliable, not even "reliable enough". Rent or buy a decent measurement microphone. The software is much more reasonable. I prefer StudioSix Digital, but there are other packages that work well. The trick is learning to read the reports. Again, this is a good time to hire an acosutician.

By no means should you read that to suggest that I am anything less than 100% in favor of musicians building their own studios. DIY means you can make changes when you need to, and you'll understand how.

Aside - when I was running a business to maintain studios I taught my clients to align their tape decks, and entire systems, and helped them purchase the test equipment they needed to do the job. By learning to take care of the basics themselves they increased their ability to deliver a great product. I still came by regularly to check things out, but they were not dependent on me for basic maintenance. Maybe not the best business decision, but it felt right.

Power and grounding could fill another volume, and my fingers are getting tired.

So too is interconnection - especially today with a mix of single-ended and balanced connections. I will suggest that you choose patchbays wisely, and they can be the single biggest source of problems in the studio. Keep the number of connectors to a minimum, and no NOT use patchbays with 1/4" connectors on the front and rear. While easier to repair, you will spend a lot more time repairing them. If you do not want to spend hours soldering choose a patchbay with Elco/Edac or similar connectors on the rear. If space is a premium consider TT or Bantam patchbays, otherwise save your money and just use 1/4" TRS patchbays.

What else - I didn't touch on lighting or ergonomics, but you probably aren't quite there yet?

Above all else, have fun, and learn a lot.


----------



## Pier (Dec 4, 2019)

wst3 said:


> the cost of a good measurement microphone is still pretty high, and sorry, those $20 models are not reliable, not even "reliable enough"



I agree given enough budget it would be better to hire an expert, but I think you might be losing context here.

We are not talking about a reference mixing room. The difference between an Earthworks mic and a cheap $40 Behringer one is negligible for this context.

See these measurements by Ethan Winer.

What good is a microphone that will deliver absolute precision when even in the best treated home studios there will be easily peaks and valleys of more than 5dbs at the listening position? It will be even more drastic when moving just a couple of feet from the listening position.


----------



## wst3 (Dec 4, 2019)

I will stand by my comments - there are decent measurement microphones for far less than the Earthworks, and they will be a better choice than any $40 microphone.


----------



## Ryan (Dec 4, 2019)

wst3 said:


> ask away!
> 
> I designed studios for a while, back when one could make an honest living at it. I also maintained consoles and tape decks. These are, at least where I live, lost arts. I am not bragging (far from it) just trying to establish a baseline. My opinions may well be dated, but they are based on more years in the industry than I will admit. These days I design conference rooms and classrooms, and frankly, the interest in audio continues to wane. I will never understand why.
> 
> ...



WOW! So much great information here. 

I start with this> "so two walls separated by an air gap is king". Check. I made sure that the contractor built two separate inner walls on each side of the "insulation" in the concrete. The walls are not with sheetrock but two layers of drywalls. That would give the walls some more mass. 

The build is on the grade. No rooms over or under. 
Regarding the floating of the floor: The contractor said it didn't cost me anything more to do it. They were still going to fill it with concrete, so setting up the "floating" was not that big of a job. 

The windows are regular 3-layer glass, but they will not be facing any bedrooms etc. So, I hope that would work just OK. 

HVAC system: That one I skipped due to the costs. 

All the cable paths goes inside the walls. I planned it out with the electrician. All of the "holes" are filled with acrylic sealant. And non of the holes are on the wall facing the rest of the house. I also got the electrician to add a new fuse just for that room. 

I'm thinking of hiring an acosutician to do some of the "tuning". 

Regarding the patchbay. I would only get a bantam-bay.. They seem so much better then the 1/4" connectors. For me the big question is if I should take a bantam-patchbay with DSUB, or the elco/edac etc. I know some of the manufactures have the possibility to choose whether you need FN, HN or NN on the inside of the unit. I would most likely need to do a lot more googling on that topic. 

Not quite there yet with the ergonomics and lights. 

Yes, this is a lot of fun! 

Ryan


----------



## Ryan (Dec 4, 2019)

Pier Bover said:


> I'm no expert but here is a little intro.
> 
> First it's a good idea to buy a calibrated mic. There are decent ones for as little as $20 (see this one). A good one is not too expensive either but it might not make sense if you are not doing this professionally. Get the software RoomEQ Wizard which is free and easy to use.
> 
> ...



Hi,
So much information! 
I did take some of the parallels, regarding walls, ceiling into consider when planning it with the architect. I decided to have the ceiling in a 10 degrees angle, the highest point in the room is at 2.60.meters, and the lowest is at 2.20M

What I'm most worried about is the bass/lows and how to threat them rightly. I got some diffusion I plan to use inside the room from Vicoustics. Should I treat the ceiling with some diffusion too? Or does the angle do the trick?

I will most likely try out the microphone and the program/software first. But most likely I would fail, and then call for backup/help :D


----------



## wst3 (Dec 4, 2019)

sounds like things are going quite well! Just a couple random thoughts...

If you can run the entire studio from a single breaker or fuse that's great, if not consider asking the electrician to install a sub-panel just for the studio. Clean power, and especially a clean ground are a huge help.

I agree on Bantam, they are better, but also more expensive. There are a couple companies that make a patchbay that uses smaller Elco/Edac connectors, one per jack, and also allow you to normal things as needed. These look a little like the dreaded Molex, but they are blades, not cylinders, and they have been very reliable. I get mine from Audio Accessories, they may not be the cheapest, but they are very good.

Next you will want to read all you can about connecting gear. There are maybe three or four authors that you can trust. Neil Muncy came up with the authoritative paper on the topic, but it may only be available to AES members. Bill Whitlock is his appointed successor, and his papers are available at Jensen Transformers and all over the net. Jim Brown is another trusted authority on the topic. and finally Steve Macatee wrote the definitive cookbook, Rane Note #110, which is probably still available from Rane.

Stick with these guys and you will have a very quiet studio.

Enjoy!


----------



## Ryan (Dec 4, 2019)

mc_deli said:


> Have you spent some time on the John Sayers forum? It is an amazing place to learn about details and have your plans dissected.
> 
> The pic looks like you have an extension or add-on to the house, which seems a bit odd with then a "floated" concrete floor (which usually means springs or similar). You are obviously spending a lot of money. I hope your your contractor is experienced. Good luck. Sounds exciting.



I did it to get it totally separated from the rest. It didn't cost me more. 

I'll check out that John Sayers forum!


----------



## Ryan (Dec 4, 2019)

wst3 said:


> sounds like things are going quite well! Just a couple random thoughts...
> 
> If you can run the entire studio from a single breaker or fuse that's great, if not consider asking the electrician to install a sub-panel just for the studio. Clean power, and especially a clean ground are a huge help.
> 
> ...



I'll ask if that's doable next time I see him. 

Great information on the Bantams, I'll check out the names and papers 

Thank you once more! Much appreciated.


----------



## wst3 (Dec 4, 2019)

Ryan said:


> I did take some of the parallels, regarding walls, ceiling into consider when planning it with the architect. I decided to have the ceiling in a 10 degrees angle, the highest point in the room is at 2.60.meters, and the lowest is at 2.20M



That may not be enough to solve the problem, but it can't hurt. The only disadvantage to angling the walls and ceiling is that you can no longer calculate modes reliably. You need finite element analysis - which is way beyond me.



Ryan said:


> What I'm most worried about is the bass/lows and how to threat them rightly. I got some diffusion I plan to use inside the room from Vicoustics. Should I treat the ceiling with some diffusion too? Or does the angle do the trick?


Diffusion is probably not going to do much - you need to think in terms of wavelength, not frequency.

To get an idea of scale let's look at ISO 1/3 Octave Centers:

20.0 Hz 56.50 ft
25.0 Hz 45.20 ft
31.5 Hz 35.88 ft
40.0 Hz 28.25 ft
50.0 Hz 22.60 ft
63.0 Hz 17.94 ft
80.0 Hz 14.13 ft
100.0 Hz 11.30 ft
125.0 Hz 8.97 ft
160.0 Hz 7.06 ft
200.0 Hz 5.65 ft
250.0 Hz 4.48 ft
315.0 Hz 3.53 ft
400.0 Hz 2.83 ft
500.0 Hz 2.24 ft

(apologies for using Imperial measurements)

But you can see that a diffusor would have to be VERY large to affect energy even at 500 Hz.

To manage (you don't really control) the room modes you need to use absorption and reflection, and again the scale of the absorber is problematic. Look into a device called the Tube Trap. I no longer remember why they work, but they do, they are not snake oil. And they still won't solve the problem but they can help.



Ryan said:


> I will most likely try out the microphone and the program/software first. But most likely I would fail, and then call for backup/help


It isn't about failing, or succeeding! It is about getting as far as you can on your own, and then inviting someone with more experience to help you get further. That is an important distinction.


----------



## Rex282 (Dec 4, 2019)

I didnt want to go with the supermarket room treatment so I made my own












inspiration from the masters.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 4, 2019)

wst3 said:


> While it is counter-intuitive, three walls with two air gaps will degrade your isolation.



That's interesting! Why is that, Bill?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 4, 2019)

By the way, the first thing I'd think about if I were building from the ground up is the ratios - something I know not even enough about to be dangerous, but at the most basic level you want to avoid having dimensions that... I forget the term! But for example 8 x 12 x 16 is going to be a problem.

What is the term? I guess it's a common denominator, but that's not what I'm searching my brain for. It's been a very long time...


----------



## mc_deli (Dec 4, 2019)

Ryan said:


> WOW! So much great information here.
> 
> I start with this> "so two walls separated by an air gap is king". Check. I made sure that the contractor built two separate inner walls on each side of the "insulation" in the concrete. The walls are not with sheetrock but two layers of drywalls. That would give the walls some more mass.
> 
> ...


I am very excited for you. I’ve been through a commercial build once and it was a fantastic experience.

I’m not an expert. However, I’ve spent far too much time on John Sayers’ forum and with the literature.

There are a few alarm bells in what you have said on here. A floating concrete floor is expensive. Therefore it’s probably not a floating concrete floor. If you spend 50, 100, 150k on a studio and don’t install HVAC it suggests you don’t have expert advice or a sound plan. “You made sure” they built two walls... but are they actually isolated from each other, what construction was used... and your studio will only be as soundproof as your windows and doors.

If your inner/outer leaves (walls and ceiling) are not decoupled and sealed properly you are burning money.

There are a few nightmare scenario threads on John Sayers and your posts here remind me too much of those. I hope that your build is water tight and it’s just getting lost in translation... 

but I beg you... spend a few hours writing an intro post on John Sayers now and get some expert feedback


----------



## mc_deli (Dec 4, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> By the way, the first thing I'd think about if I were building from the ground up is the ratios - something I know not even enough about to be dangerous, but at the most basic level you want to avoid having dimensions that... I forget the term! But for example 8 x 12 x 16 is going to be a problem.
> 
> What is the term? I guess it's a common denominator, but that's not what I'm searching my brain for. It's been a very long time...


There are a room mode, reverb time and transmission loss (material use) calculators on the John Sayers forum.

And a good piece about triple leaf here: https://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundproofing_101/triple-leaf-effect


----------



## CGR (Dec 5, 2019)

Rex282 said:


> I didnt want to go with the supermarket room treatment so I made my own
> 
> 
> 
> inspiration from the masters.



That Salvador Dali portrait would freak me out a little!






Fun fact - he designed the Chupa Chups logo.


----------



## Ryan (Dec 5, 2019)

wst3 said:


> That may not be enough to solve the problem, but it can't hurt. The only disadvantage to angling the walls and ceiling is that you can no longer calculate modes reliably. You need finite element analysis - which is way beyond me.
> 
> 
> Diffusion is probably not going to do much - you need to think in terms of wavelength, not frequency.
> ...



Hi again,

I most likely need to use some time tuning the room properly. I will off course do whatever I could to my self first before I contact ppl for help. 

What you think of the psi audio Avaa c20?


----------



## Ryan (Dec 5, 2019)

mc_deli said:


> I am very excited for you. I’ve been through a commercial build once and it was a fantastic experience.
> 
> I’m not an expert. However, I’ve spent far too much time on John Sayers’ forum and with the literature.
> 
> ...



All the walls and concrete are totally isolated from the rest of the building. Is a room inside a room build. See attached pictures. Sorry, the descriptions are in Norwegian. The reason I got rid of the HVAC is because I don't see the reason for using that amount of money on something that could be a pain in the ass problem (tubes going trough walls, ceiling etc). That could most likely be the weakest link in my build. The windows was also necessarily to have, if not I haven't got the permission to build from the municipality. Some of the rules in Norway (fire escape, lightning, etc). The door will be a 40 db massive soundproof door. 



ld


----------



## Rex282 (Dec 5, 2019)

CGR said:


> That Salvador Dali portrait would freak me out a little!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

if you look at any one of them for too long they do that(but I don't).They are intense self portraits of three masters.I can imagine them scrutinizing me and pushing me to be better ,and they give my room lots of art vibe.I like them more than static vibe of most panels that look like colored boxes hung on a wall.The arts are interconnected and this was my portal into graphic arts.


----------



## wst3 (Dec 5, 2019)

Ryan said:


> What you think of the psi audio Avaa c20?


I'm not sure what to think. On the surface it seems like a clever idea, but there are concerns on the execution, not the least of which is that $2500 is a lot to spend on a partial solution.

My first issue is that this will almost certainly behave like a tightly tuned trap. The advertised bandwidth is about 3 octaves, which would not not terrible if it were 3 useful octaves. I don't know your room dimensions, but a room with standing waves at 15 Hz would be HUGE! The shortest dimension would need to be on the order of 35 feet (feel free to check my math, that was a lazy guess!)

My second issue is that a single device would probably not be sufficient because it would not cover enough of any boundary, which means the price is probably closer to $5000 for a "typical" control room.

And maybe I'm just a grumpy old fart, but there are many other ways to address low frequency problems, and they do not depend on trickery - or at least not a lot of trickery. One example that comes to mind is the ASC Tube Traps, $2500 will buy five of them.

I have heard PSI monitors at past AES shows, and they are really good. A trade show floor is no place to make that kind of choice, but I'd put them up against Barefoot, PMI, ATC, and others - all of which are way out of my league<G>! So it is not that the company is not legit, nor am I suggesting that the bass trap is snake oil. It just strikes me as a solution in search of a problem.

Since you have used non-parallel surfaces it would make the most sense to measure the room modes. Let's see where the problems are before you spend money on solutions that may not fit.

If you do not have a measurement rig take a look at StudioSixDigital, their audio tools are about as good as it gets short of dedicated hardware, and their measurement microphones represent a great value. I use their iAudioInterface2, and even I am tempted to grab one of the uTestMic or iTestMic2 microphones to keep in my backpack.


----------



## Ryan (Dec 5, 2019)

wst3 said:


> I'm not sure what to think. On the surface it seems like a clever idea, but there are concerns on the execution, not the least of which is that $2500 is a lot to spend on a partial solution.
> 
> My first issue is that this will almost certainly behave like a tightly tuned trap. The advertised bandwidth is about 3 octaves, which would not not terrible if it were 3 useful octaves. I don't know your room dimensions, but a room with standing waves at 15 Hz would be HUGE! The shortest dimension would need to be on the order of 35 feet (feel free to check my math, that was a lazy guess!)
> 
> ...



Hi again! 
I'm very unsure what to think about this unit/active bass trap my self. You get a lot of nice outboard gear for $2500, and to have two is like you say $5000.. However, I feel tempted to get one on loan from the dealer here in Norway. Would be quite interesting to see how it interacts with my room dimensions. Not long ago I read about those ASC tube traps. They seem quite nice. 

I have a pair of PSI monitors (just really really good sounding stuff), so I have some confidence that the products they produce is at a certain level. That why I have considered to get one or two for a loan to see how they interfere in my room. 

I haven't hear about StudioSixDigital. I will look into it! The stuff I see on their website looks good.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 5, 2019)

mc_deli said:


> There are a room mode, reverb time and transmission loss (material use) calculators on the John Sayers forum.



There's no search function unless you join the forum, but just be aware that a simple room mode calculator won't tell you which modes are okay and which aren't. Once you call in the architects, it becomes more complicated.

And yet I also argue the other side: you can almost any existing room workable pretty easily. Starting from the ground up is different.



mc_deli said:


> And a good piece about triple leaf here: https://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundproofing_101/triple-leaf-effect



Ah, so it's just because you're replacing air cavity with drywall, not because the middle wall is bad. Makes sense. Thanks.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 5, 2019)

wst3 said:


> ASC Tube Traps, $2500 will buy five of them



They used to be more than that.


----------



## Gerhard Westphalen (Dec 5, 2019)

wst3 said:


> I'm not sure what to think. On the surface it seems like a clever idea, but there are concerns on the execution, not the least of which is that $2500 is a lot to spend on a partial solution.
> 
> My first issue is that this will almost certainly behave like a tightly tuned trap. The advertised bandwidth is about 3 octaves, which would not not terrible if it were 3 useful octaves. I don't know your room dimensions, but a room with standing waves at 15 Hz would be HUGE! The shortest dimension would need to be on the order of 35 feet (feel free to check my math, that was a lazy guess!)
> 
> ...


I've heard good things about the C20. Especially adding them to a room that already has extensive treatment. I've seen a lot of people using just a pair but without extensive treatment you'd probably need a few more. The general concept of them is pretty sound. My only issue with them is the price. I think there's an Italian company which makes acoustic treatment products that makes something similar but cheaper.


----------



## mc_deli (Dec 6, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> There's no search function unless you join the forum, but just be aware that a simple room mode calculator won't tell you which modes are okay and which aren't. Once you call in the architects, it becomes more complicated.
> 
> And yet I also argue the other side: you can almost any existing room workable pretty easily. Starting from the ground up is different.
> 
> ...


Google still works 

This is the one commonly cited:


http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm



I don’t follow you on the triple leaf. My understanding is that triple leaf can theoretically give good results in extreme circs (large air gaps) but in real world situations triple leaf creates problem frequencies where the sound transmission loss is much worse than double leaf. 

This is relevant to e.g. most conversion projects where there are often existing single or double leaf walls i.e. in a domestic setting with cavity walls the last thing you want to do is add a third leaf because you may get worse performance at certain frequencies than you started with.


----------



## mc_deli (Dec 6, 2019)

Ryan said:


> All the walls and concrete are totally isolated from the rest of the building. Is a room inside a room build. See attached pictures. Sorry, the descriptions are in Norwegian. The reason I got rid of the HVAC is because I don't see the reason for using that amount of money on something that could be a pain in the ass problem (tubes going trough walls, ceiling etc). That could most likely be the weakest link in my build. The windows was also necessarily to have, if not I haven't got the permission to build from the municipality. Some of the rules in Norway (fire escape, lightning, etc). The door will be a 40 db massive soundproof door.



Looks great. With HVAC ducting the “budget” solution is to make MDF baffle boxes lined with duct liner. And have these inside the room at the inlet/outlet points. There’s a thread with some theory and what to avoid here:

https://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21752
The expensive solution is to buy ready made metal baffle boxes from a HVAC supplier. We did this in a commercial build and they are very large, take loads of planning and a large chunk of cash.

I am at similar to Norwegian latitude a few countries across  Where I live we have temperatures from -25 to +25. Heat and air. I don’t get how you can choose not to have these?

(I’m only coming back again because not planning HVAC is the #1 cause of pain/time/cash from the studio builds on Sayers and Gears****. The others are e.g. domestic non-specialist inexperienced contractors, floating concrete floors, triple leaf accidents, non isolated leafs, flanking paths, window/door framing weakest links. And I have my head in this right now as I have basement room to sound proof and it’s a nightmare to plan as I don’t know how many leafs are in the joining wall (argh) or how the concrete ceiling is constructed... I do have in/out air already so that’s something...)


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 6, 2019)

mc_deli said:


> I don’t follow you on the triple leaf.



What I wrote is a precis of your link about the triple leaf problem.

Its point is just that if you have, say, a 2' footprint for walls + airgap, you're better off with two walls and a larger air gap than with three walls and a small one.


----------



## Pier (Dec 6, 2019)

Ryan said:


> Should I treat the ceiling with some diffusion too? Or does the angle do the trick?



Again, I'm no expert, but I've seen lots of studios with a absorbers hanged above the listening position. Even ones with angled walls.








CGR said:


> Fun fact - he designed the Chupa Chups logo.



Ha! I'm from Spain so I grew up eating those things!


----------



## mc_deli (Jan 21, 2020)

@Ryan How are getting on with this?

I'm trying to plan and going through my own pain (flanking noise to neighbours) and I've been reading far too much again.

For reference, I found the classic three leaf thread rebuild on John Sayers that I thought of when I read your earlier posts: 


http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17363



And because it's only fair, here's my painful beginning, where I'm finding out what I thought was going to be simple is going to be a more € etc:


http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=22245&p=152330#p152330




I was just re-reading this thread and something new struck me - you said you have one 40dB door - usually room-within-a-room construction means two doors... otherwise you lose the effect of the second leaf... what are you planning?


----------



## Ryan (Feb 20, 2020)

mc_deli said:


> @Ryan How are getting on with this?
> 
> I'm trying to plan and going through my own pain (flanking noise to neighbours) and I've been reading far too much again.
> 
> ...



Hi, Sorry for not answering you earlier. I've moved all my gear and stuff into the new room. and so far, I only got bad vicoustic bass traps, but the sound is actually very pristine and clear. Not so muddy as first expected. The clarity in the sound field is much better then what I've had in any working environment so far before (as in home studio). 

Yes, the door thing... As I wanted to save space, there was not room to put an extra door into the wall. They build the double wall smaller then usual. That's why I only got one door. But, it works.. My aim was not to get a multi million dollar studio at home, but rather a nice and functional working room for writing, recording etc. 

Next on my list is some more treatment, but I do not think I need a lot of diffusion etc. Also need some new furniture etc. But that will come when I have time. Quite busy making music atm.

Made some test-recordings of my piano:


Got some pictures on instagram (where I update on a regularly basis).


 


Best
Ryan


----------

