# Decidedly untrailerish track - Cinematic Studio Strings



## muk (Sep 21, 2016)

Hello all

To get to know Cinematic Studio Strings better I made another track with them, purely for string orchestra. Slowly but steadily I think I get to grips with it. The main issues that remain for me are the legato lag - makes it difficult to play and somewhat tedious to program - and the narrow dynamic range. And I feel the track reflects that, the timing and the dynamic range could be better. But the sound of the library is great and really doesn't take much work at all.
Anyway, here is the track:

https://app.box.com/s/vc529lsqsuuzemieurzs7we11mc74f6i


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## patrick76 (Sep 21, 2016)

Lovely. Thanks for sharing your composition and experience with the library.


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## muk (Sep 21, 2016)

Thanks for listening and commenting, Patrick.


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## byzantium (Sep 21, 2016)

Lovely sound. Thanks for posting. 

I find the time lag before one gets aural feedback about the action one has just taken, a bit disconcerting, and makes playing CSS somewhat difficult for me at the moment, both on legatos and shorts - and necessitates editing to fix up timings afterwards (which naturally one wants to avoid as much as possible because it is so time-consuming). 

I don't know if I'll be able to get used to the time delay yet, I haven't had that much time with it. I am working on a 256 sample audio buffer setting though, for CPU reasons, maybe that adds to the problem.


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## Lawson. (Sep 21, 2016)

Lovely sound and writing. Thanks for sharing!

(Also I have realized that I'm the 3rd person in a row to say "lovely," but it really is!)


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## jacobthestupendous (Sep 21, 2016)

I'll add a fourth "lovely" to the pile. It really is.


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Sep 21, 2016)

classy


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## Jediwario1 (Sep 21, 2016)

I love it! The sound of the library definitely suits this track.

How long did this take to program/write? And did you perform each part in and then tweak?


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## TGV (Sep 22, 2016)

A lovely track, indeed. The tempo feels a bit rushed sometimes, but there's some good writing there. I particularly loved the repeating rising figure in the middle voices. And a lovely sound, too.

But what do you mean by "the narrow dynamic range"? Doesn't it do pp(p) or ff(f)?


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## muk (Sep 22, 2016)

Thank you all for your nice words.

@byzantium it's inconvenient that different articulations have a different delay. This practically forces you to use one track per articulation, otherwise you can't just compensate the delay in your DAW. For legato this is still not practical because of the different legato speeds, and of course it doesn't help when playing. I don't know how other developers solved the problem, but it's definitely much more pronounced in CSS than in other libraries.

@Jediwario1 composing and orchestration didn't take too long. I am a paper and pencil guy mostly, so I wrote the piece first, and then performed and tweaked each individual part. Playing and tweaking took some hours to do, maybe 4 or 5. But that's just a rough estimation.

Thanks TGV. CSS can do pp and ff. What I meant with dynamic range is that the db span between pp and ff is a bit narrow. If you play ff with CSS the timbre change is there, but it isn't that much louder than an mp. In other string libraries there is more dynamic range - meaning more volume difference between pp and ff.


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## Baron Greuner (Sep 22, 2016)

That tears it! Now I'm going to have to get CSS as soon as my wife agrees to pay for it. 

Great sounding track. Well done.

This library has an old Hollywood sound. Almost back to the days of Steiner and Waxman in some ways, with a little bit of the LOTR sound thrown in. May have said that before. But for some reason this is the way the library has turned out, and it's all good.


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## muk (Sep 22, 2016)

Thank you Baron. Just don't blame it on me  It is not the easiest library to work with, nor the quickest. But it has a gorgeous sound that's different from anything else on the market.


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## Ashermusic (Sep 22, 2016)

muk said:


> Thank you Baron. Just don't blame it on me  It is not the easiest library to work with, nor the quickest. But it has a gorgeous sound that's different from anything else on the market.




Yes, and you demonstrated it well, although I would like to hear more dynamic swelling, breathing effect if you will.


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## muk (Sep 22, 2016)

Thank you Jay. I think I know what you mean. That dynamic swelling is a bit harder to achieve with CSS because of it's narrow dynamic range. But perhaps I could ride cc1 even more in the future, thanks for the tip.


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## Silence-is-Golden (Sep 22, 2016)

Lovely :D Muk. 
I would suppose this type of music may be what got you into the exclusive library in the UK?

And without sticking that label everywhere inappropriately, because eventually I think everyone can, and will write more uniquely to their own "inner ear" but I do think I hear some "Brahms-ish" influences here and there.


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## OleJoergensen (Sep 22, 2016)

Ohhh wunderschön. Your composition is full of Love.
What inspired you to write this music, if I may ask?
Thank you for sharing.


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## muk (Sep 22, 2016)

Silence-is-Golden said:


> I would suppose this type of music may be what got you into the exclusive library



Thank you Silence. I had very generous help and a lot of luck. Brahms influences are very possible - I like his music very much and only recently studied some of his work again. I didn't deliberately try to write in any particular style, but it could have been subconscious.

Thank you for your kind words Ole. To be honest I didn't have anything extramusical in my mind. It started as an improvisation at my piano. Some bits came up that I liked, and from there I tried to build it into a coherent musical structure.


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## kavinsky (Sep 22, 2016)

Amazing. Great work
Always enjoy the tension those major dominant chords provide (I heard a little "gabriel's oboe" here which is a compliment indeed!).


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## JBacal (Sep 22, 2016)

Lovely indeed!

Best,Jay


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## muk (Sep 23, 2016)

Thank you kavinsky. Morricone in there? Glad you would think so, that's a real compliment.

Merci beaucoup Jay. I always admired your work. Incredible what you do with these VSL libraries.


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## scottbuckley (Sep 23, 2016)

Stunning. Beautiful writing, and the mix has an amazing sense of presence and space. Thanks for sharing, you've made my evening.


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## micrologus (Sep 23, 2016)

Bello, bellissimo, toccante, emozionante = Beautiful, touching, exciting.


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## muk (Sep 23, 2016)

Thank you Scott and Matt for your kind words. The positive responses are touching and very encouraging, thanks all for that.


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## SymphonicSamples (Sep 23, 2016)

Lovely piece Muk, a pleasure to listen to.


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## jononotbono (Sep 23, 2016)

Loved it. Sounds splendiferous. Damn you for making me realise I want CSS more than ever!


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## Jeast (Sep 23, 2016)

Beautiful! As much as I would like to credit CSS for this (because that would make me believe I can write something of the same quality by just buying CSS), truth is this is 100% due to your writing/arranging/tweaking, it would just sound as beautiful with another good string library. Awesome work!


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## muk (Sep 23, 2016)

Thanks Matt. Splendiferous? I had to look that one up  Thanks a lot Luke.

Thank you Jeast, you are too kind. CSS's tone really does a lot here, but of course - and thankfully! - it won't write the music for you.


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## Iskra (Sep 26, 2016)

So beautiful, simply beautiful
As someone mentioned earlier: you made my day


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## novaburst (Sep 26, 2016)

muk said:


> https://app.box.com/s/3og8edo8iofdhmu8yvyenmb4q78h76mo


Very nice, and convincing, touching, and warm.


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## Morodiene (Sep 26, 2016)

Loved the writing, and I agree with you on the dynamic range. Could this be possibly boosted with adding another string library? I don't know, I'm a newbie to all of this LOL. Loved your piece though.


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## desert (Sep 26, 2016)

Loved the suspensions


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## Vik (Sep 27, 2016)

I really like this piece as well. It both demonstrates what CSS can do and that (at least for many types of music) it's important to have knowledge/experience about music, harmony and writing good melodic lines.


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## maro (Sep 27, 2016)

Lovely composition. Thanks for sharing. Apropos sound, CSS is definitely the best library at the moment for romantic, emotional legato strings.


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## Vik (Sep 27, 2016)

CSS is great for such compositions, but it would take a lot of time and work to see how it would compare with the sound of eg Hollywood Strings, Berlin Strings or Spitfire Mural. (Check eg the Captain Brown demo on this page: https://www.spitfireaudio.com/shop/a-z/symphonic-strings-volume-3/) Nevertheless, CSS may still be the best _deal_ for that kind of music right now.


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## muk (Sep 27, 2016)

Thank you Iskra and novaburst, that's very kind of you to say so.

Morodiene it could, at least partially. But if the dynamic ranges of the libraries you layer don't match you will run into problems in the mixing stage. If CSS's dynamic range is considerably lower than the other libraries, then CSS will eiter be louder in the soft passages, or quieter in the loud. Or both. Depending on the dynamics you are playing the timbre of one library will dominate. So it would be better to at least roughly match the dynamic ranges of libraries before layering.
I found a thread about how you can edit the dynamic range of Kontakt libraries:

http://vi-control.net/community/threads/editing-the-dynamic-range-of-a-sample-library.50310/

I'm going to try this with CSS.

Good to hear desert. I like suspensions as well, such a simple yet effective tool. The difficult part is to know when it's enough 

Merci, Vik. A certain knowledge about harmony and counterpoint gives you more options in your toolbox as a composer. I'm glad you should think that it shows in this piece.

Thanks, maro. As Vik I think there are some options out there for this kind of music (Berlin Strings, Hollywood Strings, Mural, maybe Appassionata Strings...). It depends on taste and personal workflow which one you would like the best. But I agree that CSS is very good at it.


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## Vik (Sep 27, 2016)

muk said:


> But the sound of the library is great and really doesn't take much work at all.


This aspect - how much work/time one needs, _technically_, to get things right is IMO one of the most important things to consider, at least for me. It's important not to lose track of the music due to technical issues/practical things to solve.

But based on Muk's track in this thread, Daniel Beijbom's "In an Instant" os Soundcloud (also made in CSS), and Muk's earlier and equally brilliant La Sera Sper Il Lag (below), I'm convinced that CSS is brilliant. 

These pieces are IMO in the same league as the work of major composers out there.
https://app.box.com/s/mrqig9nelfv8hlh0q2d2q180arufjmmz


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## Pianistikboy (Sep 27, 2016)

Wow Muk ! Another positive comment for you : your composition is so beautiful and expressive. You show us that you have succeed to master those famous CSS strings. We can feel heart and emotion in your music. Thank you for showing us your composer skills. Again bravo !


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## muk (Sep 27, 2016)

Vik, thank you for pointing me towards Daniel's track. Awesome work he did there. And I have to concur about CSS. Once you get the hang of it, it is indeed a brilliant library. I've tested the method I linked to above to increase the dynamic range on a new piece, and it works. So this issue can at least be somwhat remedied.



Vik said:


> These pieces are IMO in the same league as the work of major composers out there.



Wow, I'm floored that you should think so. There's still a lot for me to learn, but I am working hard on my composition and production skills, and I hope it'll pay off with career opportunities. Thanks again for your encouragement.

That's so kind of you Pianistikboy. Thanks very much for listening and commenting.


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## Takabuntu (Sep 27, 2016)

Thank goodness for "decidedly untrailerish" tracks!!! What a great track Muk, wonderful melody and arrangement. The sound of this library really adds to it too. It reminds me of old movies and sacred music.


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## muk (Sep 28, 2016)

Thanks Takabuntu. Yes, CSS got that nice warm hollywood sound of older movies.


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## Saxer (Sep 28, 2016)

Back from holidays I just listened to your track... beautiful and emotional music! 
CSS is one of the few string libraries that works really well for polyphonic writing without ever getting harsh or washy. Really well used in your arrangement.

Maybe the easiest way to spread the dynamic range would be to couple CC1 to the instrument output level in Kontakt. This can be scaled inside of Kontakt... may be worth a try. The extended range part from 2 min at your track really deserves some extra dB movement for the emotional impact.


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## josefsnabb (Sep 28, 2016)

Yes, this was LOVELY.  Beautiful composition and great job with the library, makes me want this lib so bad and learn more music theory.


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## muk (Sep 28, 2016)

Thank you Saxer. Coupling CC1 with Kontakt's master volume works very well once you've found the right amount. It's a nice trick, and very handy for this library. Thanks for pointing it out.

Thank you Josef. Definitely do spend some time learning music theory if you can. It's interesting and rewarding.


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## Silence-is-Golden (Sep 28, 2016)

Saxer said:


> couple CC1 to the instrument output level in Kontakt


I am still not familiar with the many Kontakt possibilities, can you say shortly how that is done?

Or is that scripting knowledge?


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## Zhao Shen (Sep 28, 2016)

Great composition! Still relatively easy to tell that it's samples, but _damn._ If sample devs keep making progress like this, it won't be too long before we get insanely believable results.


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## muk (Sep 29, 2016)

Silence, it's not difficult at all. Have a look at lucor's post here:

http://vi-control.net/community/threads/editing-the-dynamic-range-of-a-sample-library.50310/

Thank you Zhao. Somehow I think it will be difficult to fool trained ears for some time to come. But it's true that sample libraries have come a long way already.


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## Saxer (Sep 29, 2016)

Silence-is-Golden said:


> I am still not familiar with the many Kontakt possibilities, can you say shortly how that is done?
> 
> Or is that scripting knowledge?


Sorry, was late for the answer... muk did it


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## EvgenyEmelyanov (Sep 29, 2016)

What a beautiful melody!


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## muk (Sep 30, 2016)

Thank you Evgeny.


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## LamaRose (Oct 26, 2016)

Beautiful, with a touch of melancholy.


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## J-M (Oct 27, 2016)

This is the definition of beauty right here...awesome job!

I'm almost ashamed to ask you to take a listen to my track:http://vi-control.net/community/threads/lord-of-the-woods-trying-to-be-scary.56839/


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## muk (Oct 30, 2016)

Thank you LamaRose and MrLinssi!


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## SagZodiac (Mar 22, 2017)

Lovely track. I like it because it reminds me some sort of Studio Ghibli Film.You should do a soundcloud channel or a youtube.Sir, what is your name?


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## muk (Mar 22, 2017)

Thank you SagZodiac. I haven't seen any Studio Ghibli movies, will at least listen to some soundtracks now. I don't have a soundcloud channel, but I posted some of my not commercially used pieces on this forum. I like the anonymity of the forum, and my name wouldn't tell you anything. But if you have a particular reason for asking just pm me. Thanks again for listening and your kind comment.


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## Paul T McGraw (Mar 22, 2017)

@muk are you still using CSS or did the timing and dynamic range issues cause you to move on? The above track is very beautiful.


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## muk (Mar 22, 2017)

Thank you Paul. I'm still using it regularly, it's a great library. There are remedies for both these issues (Saxer posted how to deal with the dynamic range issue above, and you can use key commands to move legato notes to compensate the for the timing delay). I find CSS fantastic for this kind of music. For more classical music I tend to reach for Dimension Strings. I'm glad to have both these libraries and use both on a regular basis.


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## Smikes77 (Mar 22, 2017)

This was great. I know doesn`t sound anything like this but for some reason it reminded me of the string writing in Meet Joe Black.

Great work!


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## muk (Mar 22, 2017)

Thanks Mike. I've seen Meet Joe Black, but that's a long time back. A good reason to check out Thomas Newman's string writing.


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## Paul T McGraw (Mar 22, 2017)

muk said:


> Thank you Paul. I'm still using it regularly, it's a great library. There are remedies for both these issues (Saxer posted how to deal with the dynamic range issue above, and you can use key commands to move legato notes to compensate the for the timing delay). I find CSS fantastic for this kind of music. For more classical music I tend to reach for Dimension Strings. I'm glad to have both these libraries and use both on a regular basis.



@muk I am thinking of buying Dimension Strings. VSL is having a nice sale on them this month. Currently I am using VSL Orchestral Strings, and I like them. The attraction for me of the Dim Strings is the detailed sound and the ability to handle divisi parts in a very natural way. The negatives for me are the cost, very expensive even on sale, and the additional hard drive space consumed.

As someone with a similar musical aesthetic I would value your opinion. Should I purchase Dim Strings?


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## muk (Mar 22, 2017)

Tough one. Do you have other string libraries apart from Orchestral Strings? I like Dimension Strings a lot, they are very playable. But as you wrote, they are expensive (if you look around you can find good second hand offers though), and they are complicated to set up and mix.
For divisi it's the most flexible library, no other offers individual players. LASS offers subgroups. Could be an option if you are looking for larger size string sections. Spitfire Chamber Strings sound nice if you want smaller sections, but no divisi capabilities.

DS is less geared towards sweeping romantic music, but if you are looking for detailed classical sound it's an excellent choice. I would say it's not a beginner friendly library, but it's very flexible and playable. 

As an aside, eventually there will be string libraries from VSL recorded at Synchron Stage. Might be quite some time off still though


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## Paul T McGraw (Mar 22, 2017)

muk said:


> Tough one. Do you have other string libraries apart from Orchestral Strings? I like Dimension Strings a lot, they are very playable. But as you wrote, they are expensive (if you look around you can find good second hand offers though), and they are complicated to set up and mix.
> For divisi it's the most flexible library, no other offers individual players. LASS offers subgroups. Could be an option if you are looking for larger size string sections. Spitfire Chamber Strings sound nice if you want smaller sections, but no divisi capabilities.
> 
> DS is less geared towards sweeping romantic music, but if you are looking for detailed classical sound it's an excellent choice. I would say it's not a beginner friendly library, but it's very flexible and playable.
> ...



I also own Cinestrings, it was my first library purchase and my only other strings library. But I don't use it anymore. Among the many things I like about VSL, one of the biggest is their Vienna Instruments Pro sample player software. That software would make me lean towards VSL products even if all other things were equal. But there are many VSL features I value, and I also value the fact that VSL is very resource friendly. I can load a full symphony orchestra in only about 32GB of RAM making a slave unneeded. 

The VSL Orchestral Strings is, I think, one of their oldest products, and does not have the rich and beautiful sound you have demonstrated above with CSS. 

And thanks for answering my question about Dim Strings. Love the sound, but still not sure I want to fool with it.


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## leon chevalier (Mar 22, 2017)

Paul T McGraw said:


> I also own Cinestrings, it was my first library purchase and my only other strings library. But I don't use it anymore. Among the many things I like about VSL, one of the biggest is their Vienna Instruments Pro sample player software. That software would make me lean towards VSL products even if all other things were equal. But there are many VSL features I value, and I also value the fact that VSL is very resource friendly. I can load a full symphony orchestra in only about 32GB of RAM making a slave unneeded.
> 
> The VSL Orchestral Strings is, I think, one of their oldest products, and does not have the rich and beautiful sound you have demonstrated above with CSS.
> 
> And thanks for answering my question about Dim Strings. Love the sound, but still not sure I want to fool with it.



As muk said, I strongly advise you to have a look on second hand. Resale is allowed by VSL. You can often find very cheap offer : http://vi-control.net/community/search/1564628/?q=vsl+vienna&o=date&c[title_only]=1&c[node]=66

Leon


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## Fer (Mar 22, 2017)

Stunningly beautiful writting muk, thanks for sharing! afortunately someone bumped this thread... i missed your composition when you started the thread in sept....it seems that i have to check out "members compositions" more often...


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## muk (Mar 22, 2017)

Thanks for your kind words Fer, glad you like it.


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## Phillip (Mar 22, 2017)

Very beautiful and masterful writing. Inspiring.


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## mmjohan (Mar 22, 2017)

Sounds amazing! Has that touch of Morricone


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## muk (Mar 23, 2017)

Thank you Phillip and mmjohan.


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