# Logic Pro 9 - $199 in the app store



## Peter Alexander (Dec 8, 2011)

http://www.apple.com/logicpro/

Just posted.


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## Simon Ravn (Dec 9, 2011)

Yeah, wonderful news. This probably means that the next version will be called Garageband Pro.


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## IvanP (Dec 9, 2011)

So...rumors are true...

Well...Cubase and DP, you have the opportunity of fighting for something or follow the same fate...

I wonder who's gonna stand as a true Pro DAW at the end.


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## jamwerks (Dec 9, 2011)

So X should be coming next week then ! o=?


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## JT3_Jon (Dec 9, 2011)

wait...because Logic had a price drop its no longer a pro DAW?


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## Simon Ravn (Dec 9, 2011)

JT3_Jon @ Fri Dec 09 said:


> wait...because Logic had a price drop its no longer a pro DAW?



Well, if Final Cut X is any indication, yes that is the direction they are heading...


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## Christof (Dec 9, 2011)

jamwerks @ Fri Dec 09 said:


> So X should be coming next week then ! o=?


Why next week?


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## dcoscina (Dec 9, 2011)

MOTU would do well do get 64 bit released sooner than later. Pro Tools has gotten a lot better for VIs but for hardcore MIDI guys, Logic or Cubase are probably the way to go.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 9, 2011)

Some of you are missing the obvious:

1. Apple is moving to have ALL it s apps in the APP Store instead of boxed DVDs. This is just another step in this direction.

2. This saves them a lot of money and so now they can offer Logic Pro for the price they offred Logic Express for.

3. They don't need Logic Pro to make money, just exist as an incentive to buy a Mac rather than or in addition to a PC thanks to the iPhone, iPad, and iPod.

4. It screws their competitors who DO need their DAWS to make money, which Apple loves.

Finally I will again make the point as I have so many times that the Logic development team in Relllingen Germany is separate from the Apple development team in Cupertino. For reasons I cannot go into here, I highly doubt it will go the way of Final Cut Pro.


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Dec 9, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 09 said:


> 3. They don't need Logic Pro to make money, just exist as an incentive to buy a Mac



This is definitely the reason it is now $200. Cheaper than the update from Pro Tools 9 to 10.


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## sbkp (Dec 9, 2011)

How much money could it possibly cost to produce physical copies? It's not that many discs plus one book, right?

Also, the App Store version doesn't appear to come with the loops and samples. It's only a 413MB download. Maybe they'll turn the content into a bunch of Jam Packs 

EDIT: Actually it says, "19GB of optional content available via in-app download". I wonder if that costs or not.


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## jamwerks (Dec 9, 2011)

Between producing the physical copies, shipping, and the retailers percentage, selling directly at $200 is probably not far from 500$ at a retailers.


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## sbkp (Dec 9, 2011)

Yeah, that's a good point. I guess I only pictured Logic being sold on apple.com and at Apple stores. Never mind my point on that score


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## dcoscina (Dec 9, 2011)

If Logic 10 is released in this format and they fix some things that bother me and others about its current incarnation, it's almost a no-brainer to upgrade. 

I will have to defer to Jay regarding its development as he knows much better who's making the decisions ...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 9, 2011)

They lowered the price to $200 for the same reason they lowered it to $500 before: they don't care.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 9, 2011)

^ Meaning they have much more to gain by getting lots of people using Logic than they have to lose by devaluing competitors' products.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 9, 2011)

If the next v. of Logic is going to be amateur, this is a surprise:

http://support.apple.com/kb/TS2565


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## mikebarry (Dec 9, 2011)

I am really happy with the nuts and bolts of Logic right now. This is a program one could use for years to come. 

There are a few things they could do to make my life easier.

1) GUI Customization/Skinning - to avoid eye fatigue
2) 64 Bit Movie - more features, volume control etc.... 
3) MIDI latency "recording delay" just like the audio one

Logic 9 is really a top noch sequencer if you decide to go with it and not fight it.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 9, 2011)

Mike, does the track delay parameter (in the inspector) delay MIDI input?


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 9, 2011)

mikebarry @ Fri Dec 09 said:


> I am really happy with the nuts and bolts of Logic right now. This is a program one could use for years to come.
> 
> There are a few things they could do to make my life easier.
> 
> ...



i agree Mike but my understanding from Apple is that #2 is not really something that is a Logic issue, it is a Quicktime issue, so it is a different team of guys that need to deal with it.


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## Dracarys (Dec 9, 2011)

Mixer -> Protools
Sequencer -> Logic
Piano Roll -> Cubase

Somebody combine all these please


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 9, 2011)

Casalena @ Fri Dec 09 said:


> Mixer -> Protools
> Sequencer -> Logic
> Piano Roll -> Cubase
> 
> Somebody combine all these please



Engine > BMW
Interior > Lexus
Handling > Audi
Price > Honda

Life does not work that way :lol:


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## bryla (Dec 9, 2011)

this is Logic Pro, right? not Logic Studio....


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## germancomponist (Dec 9, 2011)

Look to the story of EMU! 

EMU, it was the first adress in our world for many years, and now??????

Good to know that Steinberg was bought from Yamaha! (Opssss, I am a Cubase freak.... .)


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## studioj (Dec 9, 2011)

Casalena @ Fri Dec 09 said:


> Mixer -> Protools
> Sequencer -> Logic
> Piano Roll -> Cubase
> 
> Somebody combine all these please



amen to that. although channel presets in Logic are the bomb. I now rely on them so my template can be nice and simple and light to start. 

but I agree with Mike, Logic 9 is an excellent, extremely powerful tool. And I've tried/ own all of them. I'm looking forward to Logic X, but more out of curiosity and childlike anticipation than for anything i need to get my job done.


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## spectrum (Dec 9, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 09 said:


> 3. They don't need Logic Pro to make money, just exist as an incentive to buy a Mac rather than or in addition to a PC thanks to the iPhone, iPad, and iPod.
> 
> 4. It screws their competitors who DO need their DAWS to make money, which Apple loves.


Correct...what you describing is basically a bully. 

....and this is why this is a negative thing for the music software industry in general.

This move will have some big repercussions around the music software world....and mostly not positive. Competition and music retailers are both healthy things in our little world of music software. Apple doesn't care much about either.

No one wins the "race the the bottom" except the one that had nothing to lose in the first place.


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## synthetic (Dec 9, 2011)

Someone else pointed out that even if one of their competitors matched their price and put their app on the App Store, Apple would still make $60 of that sale. 

If the rumors are true that the Mac Pros are going away, then Apple has killed the market for pro software and pro machines. That's not very nice.


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## SvK (Dec 9, 2011)

there is nothing Logic can't do.
It's 199.00 now....

and that's a bad thing?

best,
SvK


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## SvK (Dec 9, 2011)

lets get real there are really only 4 pro DAWS (not counting LIVE since it is more for well LIVE)

PT
Logic
Cubase/Nuendo
DP

of those DP is dying, it really is and has been for a long time , they started focusing on Hardware while all the other DAWS were storming ahead.

That leaves 3 true players

Logic
Steinberg
PT

regarding the PriceDrop , I DO feel bad for Steinberg.

BUT I hope Logic's price drop sticks it to PT big time. They've been ripping everyone of with their stupid hardware rules... i use PT @ work but as a business, I hate them.


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## SvK (Dec 9, 2011)

QUESTION since I am a registered user of Logic 9, shouldn't my App Store tell me that there is an update for Logic 9 available to me?

In other words how do I become an App store Logic9 owner if I purchased previously in a box?

best,
SvK


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## kdm (Dec 9, 2011)

spectrum @ Fri Dec 09 said:


> Correct...what you describing is basically a bully.
> 
> ....and this is why this is a negative thing for the music software industry in general.
> 
> ...



+1

Logic is just there to sell iMacs and Macbooks. The pro audio/music industry would be wise to ignore this price move and make no attempt to compete for it's eventual, mostly consumer, customer base. 

Leave that market for Reaper, Studio One Artist, Cubase Artist/Elements, etc.


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## Udo (Dec 9, 2011)

spectrum @ Sat Dec 10 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 09 said:
> 
> 
> > 3. They don't need Logic Pro to make money, just exist as an incentive to buy a Mac rather than or in addition to a PC thanks to the iPhone, iPad, and iPod.
> ...


..... and bullying is often a symptom of insecurity. :wink:


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## SvK (Dec 9, 2011)

i think many are missing the point here:

Apple Is persuing the following model:

Hey pros: By purchasing our computers, we will practically GiVE you some of the most professional creative tools for free.

nothing wrong with that.

best,
SvK


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## antoniopandrade (Dec 9, 2011)

SvK @ Fri Dec 09 said:


> lets get real there are really only 4 pro DAWS (not counting LIVE since it is more for well LIVE)
> 
> PT
> Logic
> ...



SvK, Can you elaborate on how DP is dying? Me and all of my music college use it regularly along with Logic and Pro-Tools, and in my limited experience, they have released updates with the same frequency as Logic. The only big drawback is that DP hasn't gone 64bit yet, but honestly, I think that DP has midi functionality that is just as good as any other DAW if not better and a more much more elegant folder/track system for big templates.

However, if there's something I missed out on and DP is in fact dying, I'd really like to know what's going on, because I've no problem with using Logic as well. I've also been Cubase-curious for a while...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 9, 2011)

> QUESTION since I am a registered user of Logic 9, shouldn't my App Store tell me that there is an update for Logic 9 available to me?



I don't think you can, nor is there any advantage I can think of to doing it that way. But you should be able to update it via Software Update. That's what I did today.


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## spectrum (Dec 9, 2011)

SvK @ Fri Dec 09 said:


> i think many are missing the point here:
> 
> Apple Is persuing the following model:
> 
> ...


Sure...it's nice for the users of Logic to be able to get it for practically nothing. 
(and I am one btw....and have been since 1987 when it was called Creator )

But there is something very wrong with devaluing music software as a general practice....it kills innovation.

Garageband is a wonderful app, but Apple pricing it so low (basically free) absolutely and utterly killed innovation for entry level DAW software. 

When was the last time someone came out with a great new music production app for entry level Mac users?

Ok fine, entry level is not so much a problem for us pro guys....but if Apple kills off professional DAW innovation on the Mac platform by choking off and leaching the profits from other developers? Not good....

There is something very wrong with that. Especially that Apple doesn't care about the effects on other developers...it's basically "do it our way or be left behind" kind of attitude, and that's what I think is problematic and appropriate to criticize.

It's much healthier to have developers with different ideas and that they can charge a fair price where they can continue development for the long term.

Let's hope that innovation by non-Apple developers can continue in the DAW area in particular and for Mac music software in general.


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## spectrum (Dec 9, 2011)

antoniopandrade @ Fri Dec 09 said:


> ...Can you elaborate on how DP is dying?


Retail sales of DP have dropped significantly since Apple bought Logic. MOTU has not been able to attract new users like they once did.

The vast majority of DP users are the long-time existing users. Most new users are purchasing Pro Tools, Logic and Ableton (and Cubase on the Windows side).


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## rgames (Dec 9, 2011)

SvK @ Sat Dec 10 said:


> i think many are missing the point here:
> 
> Apple Is persuing the following model:
> 
> ...


There's a lot wrong with that. Unless you're Apple, of course.

Apple is a gadget company, so they'd give away software (and music via iTunes) for free if they could get away with it. The fact that they hold such power over the market makes it extremely tough for other developers.

I predict anti-trust lawsuits at some point in the near future... and rightfully so.

rgames


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## spectrum (Dec 9, 2011)

BTW...although it's not official, it's highly likely that Apple is nuking any upgrades for future versions too. The App Store does not have any functionality for paid upgrades for existing users.

At that price, it'll probably just work like iLife, where you get no credit for owning the previous version and you just have to re-buy the whole package every year or two.

Not a very pro-oriented model...


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## jamwerks (Dec 10, 2011)

Although I can understand and accept taking the the retailer out of the equation when it comes to software, I agree that selling at such a low price point is negative for the Pro industry as a whole, for the reasons so eloquently already mentioned.

And it's not just in the music industry. Apple is plowing ahead with their own strategy, with equally negative consequences in other industries such as publications, etc. (Apple in not the only culprit in this area).

With the world commerce becoming digital, companies like Apple become monopoly type players. Apple was born of a niche creative philosophy, and is maybe becoming one of the ugly monsters that at it's origins, were "fighting" against.

Though I'm a happy Logic user, I'd much rather my $200 or $500 went to a company with a passion for pro audio.


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## Daryl (Dec 10, 2011)

spectrum @ Sat Dec 10 said:


> SvK @ Fri Dec 09 said:
> 
> 
> > i think many are missing the point here:
> ...


I agree with all of that. I find it rather worrying that Apple seems quite happy for other DAW developers to struggle. if there is virtually no profit, or even a loss, to be made from supporting the Mac platform, then it will be very difficult for developers like Steinberg to justify supporting Mac at all. I don't think that this is good for the industry. I'm not really sure why it is good for Apple. They have to be convinced that people would rather use Logic on mac than their preferred DAW on Windows. For some people the Mac religion is so strong that this will be the case, but for professionals who are used to having certain features, and who don't want to be without them, it may be that they will just change to Windows. much like when users changed to Mac when Apple bought Logic in the first place.

However, if the point of all this is to persuade new users that they can be as good as a pro for only $199, then I'm sure it will work. This is also a bad move in my view, because Logic will have to be dumbed down more and more, so that these newbies can cope with it. Where does that leave the professional users?

D


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## NYC Composer (Dec 10, 2011)

It would seem to me the biggest loser in all this is MOTU. While I'm not crazy about them as a company, I'd hate to see a Mac DAW developer go under. We may very well see MOTU turn into a hardware only company.


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## Daryl (Dec 10, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Sat Dec 10 said:


> It would seem to me the biggest loser in all this is MOTU. While I'm not crazy about them as a company, I'd hate to see a Mac DAW developer go under. We may very well see MOTU turn into a hardware only company.


I think all DAW developers who code for OSX stand to lose. Actually, dome of them may not lose that much financially, but their customers will lose out, by having no choice of OS.

I think you're right about MOTU, but I suppose it might make them think about trying to make DP cross-platform. I would love to see this, but there's no guarantee that they could make enough sales in Windows land to make it worth it, and if the code is heavily bound to OSX, it might be a huge effort to re-code, so that they can use a cross-platform compiler.

D


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## Rob (Dec 10, 2011)

spectrum @ 10th December 2011 said:


> Sure...it's nice for the users of Logic to be able to get it for practically nothing.
> (and I am one btw....and have been since 1987 when it was called Creator )
> ...



do you mean Notator?


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## SvK (Dec 10, 2011)

there is one more possibility:

Logic 10 is imminent ( say March ), so Apple lower the price of L9 to 199.00 for 2 reasons:

When L10 is released, the price will be 399.00 or so and buyers of L9 @ 199.00 wont be pissed as they can look upon their initial investment of 199 as an upgrade price to L10...

furthermore, once new users get into Logic9 for 199, sticking with it for L10 will be a no-brainer.

best,
SvK


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 10, 2011)

SvK @ Sat Dec 10 said:


> there is one more possibility:
> 
> Logic 10 is imminent ( say March ),
> .
> ...



Nope.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 10, 2011)

Rob @ Sat Dec 10 said:


> spectrum @ 10th December 2011 said:
> 
> 
> > Sure...it's nice for the users of Logic to be able to get it for practically nothing.
> ...



Creator actually came before Notator.


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## dcoscina (Dec 10, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Sat Dec 10 said:


> It would seem to me the biggest loser in all this is MOTU. While I'm not crazy about them as a company, I'd hate to see a Mac DAW developer go under. We may very well see MOTU turn into a hardware only company.



I'm not sure where all this doom and gloom for MOTU DP is coming from. I still stay in touch with the guys at Cosmo Music, a store I worked at for a while, and the manager of keys/recording is in constant contact with MOTU and they totally deny these rumours. 

Yeah, DP is not as nice eye candy as Logic or Cubase or whatever, but it works damn well and is probably the lightest on the CPU of any DAW out there. I personally can fly on it and have very little issues with it outside the lack of 64 bit but that's even a minor niggle now since I use VE Pro for everything anyhow.

If you guys want to love Logic, hey, go wild! It's a very good program. I own it and still use it once in a blue moon. But all this speculation about DP not being used or going under is just ridiculous. I'm not going to even get into how many film composers (big ones) use DP on a regular basis.


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## SvK (Dec 10, 2011)

jay,

you are saying no L10?


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 10, 2011)

SvK @ Sat Dec 10 said:


> jay,
> 
> you are saying no L10?



I am saying it is not imminent.


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## SvK (Dec 10, 2011)

thanx jay.

Nick Batzdorf, thanx for appstore clarification.

best,
SvK


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## Frederick Russ (Dec 10, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Dec 10 said:


> SvK @ Sat Dec 10 said:
> 
> 
> > jay,
> ...



Wow that's fairly huge. And sad. Along with the really negative rumors about Apple dropping their pro division at least eMagic seemed to care about composers. Honestly I was really sorry to see Apple buy them out because I got the sense way back then that it might come to this. At least Cubase and Digital Performer seem to care about musicians - I just wish I could care about those apps as much as Logic though. Apple on the other hand only seems to care about the bottom line and no more true than when hearing about rumors of them dropping their towers in favor of mac minis, the fiasco with Final Cut Pro and now Logic as essentially a prosumer app.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 10, 2011)

Frederick Russ @ Sat Dec 10 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sat Dec 10 said:
> 
> 
> > SvK @ Sat Dec 10 said:
> ...



Here we go again :(

Logic, while owned by Apple, is developed mostly by the same German developers who have always developed it. They are quite passionate about it still. There is no reason to believe it will go the way of FCP. They are different development teams living halfway around the world form each other.

Logic Pro 8 was a major change in the whole program. Logic Pro 9 brought in 64 bit along with Flex audio and other major stuff.

I fully expect Logic X to be as major a change and so if it takes them another year to do it right, I am fine with it.

Apple as a company cares about money. Steinberg and MOTU as companies care about money. None of them care about musicians per se.

And Logic Pro 9 is as professional an app as it has ever been. Making it easier for newbies does not make it less pro.


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## germancomponist (Dec 10, 2011)

Previously the price for a product was based on the identification of all costs. Today, the price of a product is defined simply by the powerful corporations. If they get losses, these losses are compensated for elsewhere. The meaning behind it is clear: The predatory pricing to eliminate the competition! 

Sad times! What comes next?


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## sbkp (Dec 10, 2011)

rgames @ Fri Dec 09 said:


> Apple is a gadget company, so they'd give away software (and music via iTunes) for free if they could get away with it.



Haven't they sold like 10 billion songs on iTunes? Doesn't that mean $3B to Apple? I doubt they'd give that away...


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 10, 2011)

BTW, anyone notice this?


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## Daryl (Dec 10, 2011)

dcoscina @ Sat Dec 10 said:


> But all this speculation about DP not being used or going under is just ridiculous. I'm not going to even get into how many film composers (big ones) use DP on a regular basis.


A few film composers means nothing, in terms of revenue. DP is virtually unknown in the UK (other than in porno movies), and I'm sure other places as well. I would have thought that any encroachment on their user base is bad news, and if new users are dissuaded, then in a few years there will be no user base.

D


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## jamwerks (Dec 10, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 09 said:


> For reasons I cannot go into here, I highly doubt it will go the way of Final Cut Pro.



I don't get the "For reasons I can't go into here". Are you a beta tester. Do you have first hand info? What do you base the "Nope Logic X is not emminent" remark on?


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 10, 2011)

jamwerks @ Sat Dec 10 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 09 said:
> 
> 
> > For reasons I cannot go into here, I highly doubt it will go the way of Final Cut Pro.
> ...



I am under an NDA.


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## jamwerks (Dec 10, 2011)

Is it just me? I find it very strange to make assertations like that being under NDA.


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## re-peat (Dec 10, 2011)

__


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## JT (Dec 10, 2011)

Jay,

Will your next Logic book deal with using Logic 9?
Any idea when this next book will come out?


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 10, 2011)

> Especially that Apple doesn't care about the effects on other developers...it's basically "do it our way or be left behind" kind of attitude, and that's what I think is problematic and appropriate to criticize.



Why are you surprised at this? Apple's been doing this for years. Every company does - it's called doing what's right for them.

And while Logic hasn't specifically been mentioned, there have been articles in the Wall Street Journal and other publications (not always rumor blogs) to set the stage for what's coming. 

I'm not defending it, but from a sales/marketing perspective, it opens the entire educational music scene to them. Since Make Music is publicly traded, its quarterly findings are quite interesting reading. So are Avid's since they, too, are publicly traded. 

So at the college level, the new move is aimed squarely at Make Music and Avid (Finale and Sibelius).

Think about it from this perspective. You're getting a notation program and orchestral library (licensed from Vienna), and one of the top programs used by the pros for $199. Then, since there are 900-1200 recording programs in the US alone, that means all those students learning potentially on Logic.

Every semester, 10,000 - 15,000 new customers. But it has to be developed.

When it comes to shipping, it's not about the box and the carrier. It's also about LABOR and PHYSICAL STORAGE and TAXES. And from developer to dealer, anywhere from double to triple shipping before shipping to the customer (that depending on if you're shipping direct or going through a distributor).

The move is more sound for them then may appear on the surface.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 10, 2011)

JT @ Sat Dec 10 said:


> Jay,
> 
> Will your next Logic book deal with using Logic 9?
> Any idea when this next book will come out?



My next book is on the Logic Pro 9 score editor and should be out in a couple of months.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 10, 2011)

> Apple is plowing ahead with their own strategy, with equally negative consequences in other industries such as publications, etc. (



That's right - from both the magazine issue angle and by hastening the demise of all the advertising that supports them.

And let's not forget MUSIC, the soul of humanity! The record industry is all but gone. Before that they killed the album as an art form - every song sale on iTunes is a lost album sale.

Next they're rumored to be taking on TV. My annoyance at paying $150/month for 99% total crap channels on DirecTV aside, how are we going to pay for "content?" It costs a lot of money to produce all the things we like to see, hear, and read.

I guess you can't blame Apple for everything the internet takes away, but I sure hope they're able to step back and see how the circle closes: without creative industry there won't be a market for creative tools.

Somehow posting assemblage on Facebook doesn't seem like a substitute.

End of rant.


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## spectrum (Dec 10, 2011)

dcoscina @ Sat Dec 10 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sat Dec 10 said:
> 
> 
> > It would seem to me the biggest loser in all this is MOTU. While I'm not crazy about them as a company, I'd hate to see a Mac DAW developer go under. We may very well see MOTU turn into a hardware only company.
> ...


That's good to hear.



> Yeah, DP is not as nice eye candy as Logic or Cubase or whatever, but it works damn well and is probably the lightest on the CPU of any DAW out there. I personally can fly on it and have very little issues with it outside the lack of 64 bit but that's even a minor niggle now since I use VE Pro for everything anyhow.
> 
> If you guys want to love Logic, hey, go wild! It's a very good program. I own it and still use it once in a blue moon. But all this speculation about DP not being used or going under is just ridiculous. I'm not going to even get into how many film composers (big ones) use DP on a regular basis.


No one disputes that fact. But these guys have been users for many years.

The problem for MOTU is that they are not attracting new users. Sales of DP are way down compared to other DAWs.


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## spectrum (Dec 10, 2011)

re-peat @ Sat Dec 10 said:


> spectrum @ Sat Dec 10 said:
> 
> 
> > When was the last time someone came out with a great new music production app for entry level Mac users?
> ...


I think you are making my point very well. 

The version of Studio One that you tried was $449....that's a pro product, not an entry level product by any means.

Presonus offer several cut down versions of Studio One at reduced prices for entry level users, but their most stripped down version is $149....WAY more than Garageband's price....which is now only $14 (!)....

And of course now that the full version of Logic is $199, what would you do as a new guy starting out? Would you invest in a crippled Studio One?

Of course not..... you would just get Garageband or Logic Pro.

Now let's rewind a few years.....and look at the developers position as it would stand today.

If you were Presonus and were planning to invest serious bucks into making an entry into the DAW market, would you do it now that Apple has killed the profit margin?

Of course not! It just wouldn't make sense.....so a product like Studio One would simply not be developed....at least on the Mac OS, which is where a lot of new users for music software are coming from these days.

This is what I mean by killing innovation and competition....it's bad news.


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## spectrum (Dec 10, 2011)

Peter Alexander @ Sat Dec 10 said:


> > Especially that Apple doesn't care about the effects on other developers...it's basically "do it our way or be left behind" kind of attitude, and that's what I think is problematic and appropriate to criticize.
> 
> 
> 
> Why are you surprised at this? Apple's been doing this for years.


Not surprised at all by the attitude, but not happy to see them hit our own industry either.

And nobody predicted this Logic Pro for $199 move either....that's definitely some news.



> Every company does - it's called doing what's right for them.


Nah....not all companies behave the same way. Apple is an interesting animal now, because they are controlling entire ecosystems and economies. There's good and bad that comes with that....I'm simply pointing out some of the bad in our world.



> I'm not defending it, but from a sales/marketing perspective, it opens the entire educational music scene to them.


Not really. EDU pricing for other DAWs has been lower than this already.

Is there a new EDU price for Logic Pro?[/quote]


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## germancomponist (Dec 10, 2011)

spectrum @ Sat Dec 10 said:


> re-peat @ Sat Dec 10 said:
> 
> 
> > spectrum @ Sat Dec 10 said:
> ...



Exactly what I meant in my last post!

Thanks for using better words to explain it!


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## Udo (Dec 10, 2011)

Isn't what Apple is doing with Logic predatory pricing? It's considered anti-competitive and illegal under competition laws in many countries.

I believe the only way to fight it in the US is with an antitrust claim of monopolization, but cases are extremely difficult to win, because the antitrust laws are intended to benefit consumers and discounting results in at least short-term benefits to consumers.


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## ThomasL (Dec 10, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ 2011-12-10 said:


> JT @ Sat Dec 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Jay,
> ...


 =o 

Excellent news!


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## JT3_Jon (Dec 10, 2011)

Daryl @ Sat Dec 10 said:


> However, if the point of all this is to persuade new users that they can be as good as a pro for only $199, then I'm sure it will work. This is also a bad move in my view, because Logic will have to be dumbed down more and more, so that these newbies can cope with it. Where does that leave the professional users?
> 
> D


'

I disagree. There are plenty of creative ways to make a program accessible to newbies, but deep enough for professional users. Omnisphere is a great example of this type of design, and IMO the journey from LP7-LP9 has already shown this progress.


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## JT3_Jon (Dec 10, 2011)

Frederick Russ @ Sat Dec 10 said:


> Apple on the other hand only seems to care about the bottom line and no more true than when hearing about rumors of them dropping their towers in favor of mac minis, the fiasco with Final Cut Pro and now Logic as essentially a prosumer app.



And this is what worries me about the price drop in Logic, that some Apple executive will look at the budget and conclude based only on numbers that Logic Pro is does not justify further development because of the cost vs profit of the software. Selling Logic for less = less profit per sale, so the only way to generate more income is to sell more new copies to new users. 

Does anyone thing they will sell 2-3x's as many copies being at $199 instead of $499? Then again, apple sell their OS for $30, so in Apple land Logic is still really expensive!


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 10, 2011)

Udo @ Sat Dec 10 said:


> Isn't what Apple is doing with Logic predatory pricing? It's considered anti-competitive and illegal under competition laws in many countries.
> 
> I believe the only way to fight it in the US is with an antitrust claim of monopolization, but cases are extremely difficult to win, because the antitrust laws are intended to benefit consumers and discounting results in at least short-term benefits to consumers.



No.

Apple makes what's called a closed system. Logic runs ONLY on Apple hardware and Apple's own OS. Thus, they can sell to their own customer base for whatever price they want. 

If it were on the PC, it still wouldn't be predatory since Cakewalk, Steinberg and ProTools are owned by publicly traded companies with global distribution, which makes it a price war. Additionally, Apple sells direct, through their own stores, and selected Apple resellers. And there's certainly nothing preventing Roland and Yamaha opening their own stores, particularly Yamaha with band instruments, killer pro drum sets, Steinberg, professional audio/recording gear, pianos, amateur and pro keyboards. What a store THAT would be!

Though DP is independent, there's nothing preventing them from developing for the PC should they decide to do so.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 10, 2011)

dcoscina @ Sat Dec 10 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sat Dec 10 said:
> 
> 
> > It would seem to me the biggest loser in all this is MOTU. While I'm not crazy about them as a company, I'd hate to see a Mac DAW developer go under. We may very well see MOTU turn into a hardware only company.
> ...



I sincerely wish you were right, but my every instinct says otherwise.

The fact that there is no 64 bit DP, even with the VEP workaround, is telling. They're lagging more than a year behind-and now this?? This is a bombshell that will affect all other Mac DAW developers. I'm a Cubase Mac user since '97 when I was dragged away from Vision, kicking and screaming. I've always been surprised it didn't get more play on Mac, because it's truly an innovative program with a beautiful workflow. Now, however, I have to wonder if Steinberg will continue to try to compete in the Mac arena, and as Piet said, Presonus may have to re-think as well.

You are confusing customer loyalty (which I'm sure there's plenty of among existing customers using DP) with the ability to compete in today's marketplace, retain market share and add new users.


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## synergy543 (Dec 10, 2011)

Sadly, Apple's own Waveburner (which used be included with Logic) may be the first victim. I don't see it available in the Apple store.

*Obiturary*
Waveburner was a truly unique mastering program - the eningeer's "secret weapon". Its sliding A/B roll with the ability to apply plugins to individual cues made it very fast and efficient to work with. It was easy to compare transitions, adjust levels, add effects, and provide the final touches on a group of audio tracks. This is clearly a case of the baby being thrown out with the bath water - a murder than a death. Steve, who loved quality audio would be shaking his head.

I hope this obit is premature, but unfortunately I think Waveburner is a hard sell on its own....as most amateurs never make it to the mastering stage, nor do they give a damn about audio quality.


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## sbkp (Dec 10, 2011)

Just curious...

If Apple had raised the price to $999, would all the people who think it's a bad idea to lower the price think it's a good idea? (You know... to go easier on the competition and to make it _more pro_ )

And wasn't Logic a bunch more expensive just a couple of years ago?


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## synthetic (Dec 10, 2011)

Man I hope Waveburner doesn't go away, that was the only piece of the suite I still use.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 10, 2011)

sbkp, yes - they lowered the price to $500 a couple of years ago. That turned plug-ins into a commodity.

I forget the details, but there was a Waves special recently offering everything they make for a fraction of the list price. It was a few hundred dollars.

And there's a difference between users complaining about the price and developers complaining that their market has been blown up for good. We users always complain no matter what.


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## JT3_Jon (Dec 10, 2011)

synergy543 @ Sat Dec 10 said:


> Sadly, Apple's own Waveburner (which used be included with Logic) may be the first victim. I don't see it available in the Apple store.
> 
> *Obiturary*
> Waveburner was a truly unique mastering program - the eningeer's "secret weapon". Its sliding A/B roll with the ability to apply plugins to individual cues made it very fast and efficient to work with. It was easy to compare transitions, adjust levels, add effects, and provide the final touches on a group of audio tracks. This is clearly a case of the baby being thrown out with the bath water - a murder than a death. Steve, who loved quality audio would be shaking his head.
> ...



NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I use waveburner for every CD master I do!!! >8o


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## Udo (Dec 10, 2011)

Peter Alexander @ Sun Dec 11 said:


> Udo @ Sat Dec 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Isn't what Apple is doing with Logic predatory pricing? It's considered anti-competitive and illegal under competition laws in many countries........
> ...


It's not a closed system. Non Apple software runs on Apple hardware, e.g. DP (which only runs on the Apple platform). If the price of Logic is kept artificially low by Apple, it would constitute predatory pricing (developing DP for the PC would mean development a new product by MOTU and is not a valid argument).


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## ComposerDude (Dec 10, 2011)

One of the issues in going 64-bit on Mac, if I understand correctly, is Apple's corporate mandate that the Carbon development environment not be supported under 64-bit. This forces users into Cocoa and Objective-C. For legacy code, it probably means major or total rewrites of the code base. Some programs (like Photoshop the last time I looked, many months ago) only offered 64-bit mode on the PC, and were constrained to 32-bits on the Mac. This has nothing to do with cross-compilation as the Xcode compiler handles normal C++ quite nicely. Rather it's all the other stuff that would have to be changed.

I develop code across Windows, Mac, and Linux, and have some code running across all three platforms, though much of that is command-line Unix/C++ stuff for scientific research. The interesting thing is, going to 64-bit from 32-bit on OUR software suite was basically a matter of adding some flags to the Makefile that controls compilation and linking. The code had been carefully-enough written (including NOT assuming pointers were the same length as integers, a classic 32-bit-to-64-bit gotcha) that things ported to the larger address space beautifully. Took just a few minutes. So IMO this "delay" in releasing 64-bit apps has to do with the development environment, different language, different API to access functionality, and maybe some tweaks regarding 64-bit plugins. 64-bit is not intrinsically alien terrain requiring Mars rovers and minesweepers.

Recently restarted my longtime personal project of coding a new sequencer/DAW specifically for high-end film/video scoring needs...only to hear this delightful news of the Logic price cut. They *were* at $1000, then dropped the price to $500, now $199... This news makes it significantly harder for new players to make a living in this field, and certainly in being able to support multiple employees in a company on race-to-the-bottom software prices times recession sales figures. Furthermore when things contract to a "one man boutique software" model, then developer time gets repurposed handling admin/billing/support and less new code gets done. So the impact on users and the market is more like exponential, not linear.

It won't stop development here because I personally want certain features that are still not available elsewhere, and in this race-to-the-bottom of pricing, may *never* be available elsewhere. It may however force things into a 'patronage' model at a much *higher* price with limited distribution, assuming that anyone else sufficiently values the new features. (Not all will, but some might -- I have talked with folks who actually thought the existing sequencers were fine, until they heard some of the new ideas...) And from my perspective, instead of waiting forever for the other vendor's sequencer tech support response, I'll be able to just go fix and add features to my own code! 

For what it's worth, the program here was from the beginning architected to isolate Mac-dependent code into an "edge code" module with main program functionality portable across platforms. First edition will be Mac simply because I have an 8-core handy, and it's my current composing environment. But the PC, and even perhaps Linux, are preserved as alternatives.


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## Gerd Kaeding (Dec 10, 2011)

ComposerDude @ Sat Dec 10 said:


> They *were* at $1000, then dropped the price to $500, now $199... This news makes it significantly harder for new players to make a living in this field, and certainly in being able to support multiple employees in a company on race-to-the-bottom software prices times recession sales figures. Furthermore when things contract to a "one man boutique software" model, then developer time gets repurposed handling admin/billing/support and less new code gets done. So the impact on users and the market is more like exponential, not linear.



That's exactly what I thought and when I heard about the pricedrop . Really not a good thing in the longterm.

Dude , please keep us informed about your sequencer project !

Best
Gerd


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 10, 2011)

Mac software only runs within a Mac proprietary system thus making it a closed system for customers. The only way a customer can run Logic is by purchasing the Mac hardware that runs it. If the customer buys the software and not the hardware to run it, then they are left with a very lovely box that fits modern decor.


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 10, 2011)

@Composer Dude

One man's race to the bottom is another man's race to a mass market. Your challenge, should you choose to accept, is to convince investors that you have an idea that millions of people could purchase. And when you put together the total numbers from Cubase, Cakewalk and Logic, that's a reasonable customer base, especially on a more open system like the PC, where the software could be used on the Mac, as some programs are.

But it has to be done in way that people will grasp what you're doing and see how to use it. Now some call that dumbing down. Others call that efficient customer time management. 

The most common tasks are on the table and designed to be learned and executed quickly. The deeper tasks, which are deeper learning stages, require deeper training, and a deeper time commitment.

The single word resounding through your post, is impossible.

But I say, if you presented your ideas well, that it's more than possible and that a great fortune could be sitting right under your nose.

Why shouldn't you be the one to write the next transformational sequencing program? Forget the competition and re-vision what it could be sans bloat.

You can do this.


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## Udo (Dec 10, 2011)

Peter Alexander @ Sun Dec 11 said:


> Mac software only runs within a Mac proprietary system thus making it a closed system for customers. The only way a customer can run Logic is by purchasing the Mac hardware that runs it. If the customer buys the software and not the hardware to run it, then they are left with a very lovely box that fits modern decor.


It's not a closed system. The non Apple DP software, a Logic competitor, also requires that proprietary Apple hardware and OS to run. In this scenario, if the price of Logic is kept artificially low, it clearly constitutes predatory pricing.


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## ComposerDude (Dec 10, 2011)

Peter, thank you very much for that great vote of confidence!

The design philosophy is, at the front end, natural simplicity. At the back end, robust efficiency. In the middle, flexibility and a toolkit to solve the problems of professional film and video scoring.

No need to 'dumb down' an interface if the design naturally achieves clarity...exactly such clarity is necessary for BOTH the newbie user, and the professional under extreme deadline. Am paying very close attention to human factors in the UI architecture, as well as system efficiency.

I was not focusing on the mass market initially because the key differentiator will be the high-end capabilities. Probably will need more input from folks like yourself who have actual marketing background and who are more familiar with economics of the industry. If you think it's possible that this product can serve a broader audience, that's very encouraging!

Of course, for the moment my task is to get the thing written...in my "copious spare time"!

That's all for now, I've actually got a cue due shortly...

Thank you again for the kind words!


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 10, 2011)

DP only runs in an Apple environment. So, it's developed software that works within that closed system.

If DP wants to emulate Apple by selling direct as a digital download, thus eliminating their retail channel, that is their option. If DP continues to be Mac only, that is their decision because no one is making them develop only for the Mac.

If DP, Cubase, and Cakewalk believed that when Apple lowered Logic's price to $495 that was predatory pricing, they could have sued Apple in the American court system. There is no record of any such suit being filed.

All of the companies except for DP are owned or invested in by publicly traded companies who are well able to price their software at whatever price they want. 

The professional composer market is a very small niche market numbering in the few thousands. 

The amateur market numbers in the millions. 

Any company planning today on making their living off an aging shrinking market, will quickly go out of business. You must have a broader base to survive.

Published reports said that Vision went out of business with a base of about 32,000 worldwide. And there was no "predatory" pricing involved.

At one point, as was told to me by industry insiders who were close to both companies, both Emagic and Steinberg were at or near bankruptcy which is why they sold themselves to larger companies.

There was no predatory pricing involved with that, either.

It had to do with management, product design, marketing and support.

You keep trying to create a conspiracy where none exists. I'm sure this weekend, there were meetings at Cakewalk and Yamaha/Cubase discussing putting their products online for sale as digital downloads. 

What could change from this is these companies feeling liberated, thanks to Apple, for being able to put their products online as a download and ditch selling through retail.

You talk to America retailers outside of L.A. and New York City, and most of them sell one (1) copy per month of Cubase, if that. And I can testify to that because I'd call and poll dealers to see if the numbers justified writing a third party book on Cubase or any other program. 

To simplify distribution costs, Steinberg now sells a bulk of their product through Hal Leonard Distribution so American dealers can order at a decent discount on an as needed basis.
http://www.halleonard.com/search/search ... s=cubase+6

What you fail to recognize are the discounts off list that OEMs have to give to distributors and retailers. A pretty typical software distribution discount is 65% off list which means that the OEM's profit and loss numbers are based on 35% of list. 

So when Logic was $995, Emagic the company operated somewhere around $350 or slightly more per unit (I don't know the actual, I'm just applying the standard figures). And that was writing and producing for both Mac and Windows.

So when you look at the numbers and not conspiracy theories, why shouldn't they like other developers, sell their product as a download, save money, and pass the savings on to customers.

Now if you want to pay more, Nuendo is $1800 street:
http://www.audiomidi.com/Products/sbg_nuendo5/

Developers can get wigged out all they want. Or they can see an opportunity, change their business model, and potentially see a whole new worldwide base of customers open to them.

So if you want to keep on with your "Predatory pricing" thing, go ahead. But people who know how to work a calculator will see potential and opportunity.


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## Udo (Dec 10, 2011)

Peter, you missed the qualifier in each of my posts: IF Apple sells Logic for an artificially low price, THEN they could be accused of predatory pricing.


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## Daryl (Dec 11, 2011)

JT3_Jon @ Sat Dec 10 said:


> Daryl @ Sat Dec 10 said:
> 
> 
> > However, if the point of all this is to persuade new users that they can be as good as a pro for only $199, then I'm sure it will work. This is also a bad move in my view, because Logic will have to be dumbed down more and more, so that these newbies can cope with it. Where does that leave the professional users?
> ...


Hey, I never said that quote. >8o 

D


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 11, 2011)

Udo @ Sun Dec 11 said:


> Peter, you missed the qualifier in each of my posts: IF Apple sells Logic for an artificially low price, THEN they could be accused of predatory pricing.



I didn't miss it. It's speculation on your part. If a company believes that a larger company is engaged in predatory pricing, they can file suit. So far, no suit. 

They're also not obligated to produce software for that platform. They can produce for the PC, which they haven't done.

If Apple wants to give Logic away for free, they can do it here. It's their right. It's their business. 

And if you and others don't like that, vote with your wallet and buy Performer or switch to the PC. Or, buy stock and make a big deal at the annual stock holders meeting.


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## dcoscina (Dec 11, 2011)

I'm just speculating here but MOTU seems more concerned with its hardware and keep DP on for the small niche group that uses it with no intention of trying to mass market it. Just my opinion. 

BTW- their hardware is terrific.


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## Mike Greene (Dec 11, 2011)

ComposerDude @ Sat Dec 10 said:


> It may however force things into a 'patronage' model at a much *higher* price with limited distribution, assuming that anyone else sufficiently values the new features.


I have no real experience with this, but my layman's opinion is that this might not be that much of a problem. A huge number of people paid $3,000 for EWQLSO, $10,000+ for the VSL Cube, and on and on. Heck, I've got plugins I paid for a grand for, yet have never used. So the money is definitely there amongst a fairly large group of people.

Considering that the sequencer is arguably the most important piece of software we all use, it would be _"penny wise, dollar foolish"_ to balk at a high price tag if this sequencer made the work process easier.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 11, 2011)

Mike Greene @ Sun Dec 11 said:


> ComposerDude @ Sat Dec 10 said:
> 
> 
> > It may however force things into a 'patronage' model at a much *higher* price with limited distribution, assuming that anyone else sufficiently values the new features.
> ...



I agree-I've always felt that DAW software is one of the biggest bargains there is....but hobbyists/semi-pro purchasers outweigh pro purchasers by a very wide margin, and they may buy based on price .


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 11, 2011)

Leaving aside the legality of whether it's predatory pricing (which I know nothing about), the effect is that it's predatory.

However, that's not Apple's motivation for lowering the price. As I said, the reason they're doing that is simply because they don't care; they want people to buy Macs.

It was exactly the same reason they lowered the price to $500. I don't know how much of an effect that had on the plug-in industry - which I believe was already getting very crowded - but I do see a lot of plug-ins being sold for ridiculously low prices. That includes the main companies like Waves, who were recently offering huge bundles for...I forget the price, but it was only a very few hundred dollars.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 11, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Dec 11 said:


> Leaving aside the legality of whether it's predatory pricing (which I know nothing about), the effect is that it's predatory.
> 
> However, that's not Apple's motivation for lowering the price. As I said, the reason they're doing that is simply because they don't care; they want people to buy Macs.
> 
> It was exactly the same reason they lowered the price to $500. I don't know how much of an effect that had on the plug-in industry - which I believe was already getting very crowded - but I do see a lot of plug-ins being sold for ridiculously low prices. That includes the main companies like Waves, who were recently offering huge bundles for...I forget the price, but it was only a very few hundred dollars.



On the other hand, the field got very crowded with high quality plug-ins, and Waves attempted to keep up premium pricing- perhaps past the time it was reasonable to do so. The WUP put a lot of people off, too (me, for one).


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## Udo (Dec 12, 2011)

Peter Alexander @ Mon Dec 12 said:


> Udo @ Sun Dec 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Peter, you missed the qualifier in each of my posts: IF Apple sells Logic for an artificially low price, THEN they could be accused of predatory pricing.
> ...


(I'm not a DP user, just commenting on despicable and unethical practices, if Apple now switched to permanently artificially low Logic pricing).

Suit or no suit, if Apple's price is permanently kept artificially low, it's using predatory pricing. As mentioned earlier, in the US in particular, cases are hard to win and expensive.



> They're also not obligated to produce software for that platform. They can produce for the PC, which they haven't done.


Nothing to do with the issue.



> If Apple wants to give Logic away for free, they can do it here. It's their right. It's their business.


Unless it was free from the outset or during a brief promotion, that's predatory pricing, once a competitive product has been released.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 12, 2011)

Larry, I'm not arguin', in fact I even wrote that the field was getting crowded with high quality plug-ins.

Still, it wasn't long ago that Pro Tools was all but unusable without Waves' plug-ins. And Pro Tools on a Mac was the system you used if you wanted to run a DAW (other than things like Waveframe, etc.).


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 12, 2011)

Dropping Logic's price is predatory but Amazon's policies and their negative effects on brick and mortar bookstores, and now their new app, that's OK. Right?

Nothing predatory there? Right?


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## NYC Composer (Dec 12, 2011)

Peter Alexander @ Mon Dec 12 said:


> Dropping Logic's price is predatory but Amazon's policies and their negative effects on brick and mortar bookstores, and now their new app, that's OK. Right?
> 
> Nothing predatory there? Right?



Are you serious? Of course it's predatory. Amazon wants to eat your children.

That said, I still admire their model. Brick and mortar is dead. Time moves on. Amazon doesn't even want to sell anything, particularly-they just want a little piece of everything that's sold in the universe. They are to retail what brokerage houses are to Wall Street, or the house is to poker games.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 12, 2011)

Peter, I agree with what you're saying - there's no question that e-everything is having a massive effect, whether it's Amazon's influence on not just bookstores but also the entire publishing field; Apple's effect on the music industry; or email's effect on the Post Office (letters are going to take a lot longer next year). And there are many more examples.

However, I also think that what Apple is doing with Logic has differences as well as similarities. They're not selling it more cheaply because they're more efficient and their cost of production is lower, they're using it as a loss leader - and in the process threatening a lively, incredibly innovative worldwide cottage industry that employs hundreds of thousands of people.

I worry about all of the above, but there's a fine line between competitive and predatory pricing. The difference in the distinction is intent; the latter feels more gratuitous to me.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 12, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Dec 12 said:


> Larry, I'm not arguin', in fact I even wrote that the field was getting crowded with high quality plug-ins.
> 
> Still, it wasn't long ago that Pro Tools was all but unusable without Waves' plug-ins. And Pro Tools on a Mac was the system you used if you wanted to run a DAW (other than things like Waveframe, etc.).



Sorry , Nick-I missed where you said that?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 12, 2011)

> I don't know how much of an effect that had on the plug-in industry - which I believe was already getting very crowded -


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 12, 2011)

@Larry - of course I'm kidding.

@Nick - I've had a lot of ad agency experience and with that a lot of marketing experience that goes beyond most on this forum. So a number of years ago, as a test, I got all the trade pubs together for one genre and over a few days, read a year's worth to see how they viewed the world and why they thought their particular segment was or wasn't doing well.

I then compared their assessments to what's called syndicated research by companies like Mediamark Research (MRI), and Experion (formerly, Simmons Market Research).

What I discovered was that they were clueless as to what was happening. All of their insights were anecdotal, not empirical. Because they didn't widen their view, this made them vulnerable by default because they refused to do the research that would have really guided them in their business planning.

You see predatory pricing. I see an overcrowded marketplace flooded with more product than there are customers who can buy it. When that happens, the result is a buyers market. What follows is that new and small companies stay small by default. Or they go out of business.

This move by Apple could go the way you're suggesting. BUT! If developers wise up instead shouting, "The sky is falling," they could wake up and see, at last, a real mass market in front of them. And that translates in to more sales at lower prices. 

What then separates the pro market from the amateur? What's always separated it. 

Craft.

I'll give you an example.

December 15 is payday for my son who's a top web designer in Dallas. As soon as he gets his check, he's downloading Logic for his new iMac. He's just ordered a new audio card from M-Audio. 

Married, no kids. He can afford to get the bug. He'll try the synths and think they're cool and want to know what else is out there. Dad will point him to EastWest (my effort to get back some of the money I spent on diapers). He'll hear Silk.

Drool.

There's no Silk in Logic.

He'll see that the amp builder feature is OK, and then discover all the amps from IK. And he's a guitarist, so he'll be in Fender/Hendrix heaven.

Let's say a college decides to adopt Logic for the music dept. Every student needs a copy. Hello EW QLSO. 

And so it goes and goes and goes.

Predatory or potential? I think it's potential. And not as an opinion. As part of business planning.


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## david robinson (Dec 12, 2011)

peter - you are so right with this.
j.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 12, 2011)

Peter-I'm a little confused. How does any of this help, say, Mac DAW developers in specific?


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 12, 2011)

To me, DAW is hardware. If you're talking about software, create bundles, form alliances. 

Publicly traded Yamaha is the sleeping giant. It could put together amazing bundles and drop Cubase's price.

Avid could put together amazing bundles with ProTools/Sibelius/M-Audio.

Digital Performer's focus is on film. If it got aggressive, look how many want to film score. It's got the track record. But it takes marketing to make it happen.

There are many opportunities to compete. But you have to want to.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 13, 2011)

I suppose, but if you're Yamaha, why bother? You had a product that was squeaking by on Mac in terms of paying for cross platform development, and the price point was ok. Suddenly, the big Mac competition dropped its price 60% in a DAY. Yes, I suppose they could bundle Cubase with their own hardware interfaces and effects packages and what not, but the former model has already changed with Digidesign moving to open platforms for hardware, and the latter? How much more bundled could you be than the Logic package??

I dunno. Your "little engine that could" philosophy is certainly true, there's never an impossibility-but there certainly are more and less friendly arenas to compete in, and Yamaha has a lot of other irons in the fire. I don't see this as a good thing for me as a pro Cubase user, and really, I doubt it will be good for pro Logic users in the long run.

(Btw-how is a DAW "hardware " in 2011? The only DAW related hardware I use outside of a computer is a MOTU interface.)


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## spectrum (Dec 13, 2011)

Logic Pro at $199 does not really provide anything super new for potential plug-in/VI customers that did not already exist before.

Logic Express was already an excellent program at this $199 price for more serious entry level users and could also use third party plug-ins. Garageband can also use third party plug-ins.

What you'll find though is that the vast majority of these types of users who pay very little for their entry level DAW do not purchase any third party plug-ins at all...and are pretty content to use only the bundled stuff.

It's not a price thing either...most of them don't even use free plug-ins.

The first truly mass market music software scene is actually happening on the iPad now, but I've looked at a lot of numbers there and talked with a lot of iOS music app developers.

Nobody is selling millions...I can tell you that. 

In fact, other than Garagband iOS, the numbers are actually lower than the best selling professional music software products....and the lifetime is far shorter too.

That's right....even though quality, popular iOS music apps are priced under $5, they are not selling more quantity than the popular music software products you'd find at Guitar Center that are priced 100X higher!


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## NYC Composer (Dec 13, 2011)

spectrum @ Tue Dec 13 said:


> Logic Pro at $199 does not really provide anything super new for potential plug-in/VI customers that did not already exist before.
> 
> Logic Express was already an excellent program at this $199 price for more serious entry level users and could also use third party plug-ins. Garageband can also use third party plug-ins.
> 
> ...



Ok, but don't you think the lowered price is a shot across the bow of all other Mac professional DAW developers?


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## misterbee (Dec 13, 2011)

I'd be more worried/annoyed if I were a Logic user than if I were a DAW developer.


A couple of notes...

- No serious user will switch to Logic because the price went down. Real users choose their DAW on workflow, not cost... certainly not in this price range.
- There is no upgrade discount, so when everyone buys their upgrade from Logic 9 to Logic 10, they'll pay the same price as I pay for my Cubase 6 to Cubase 7 upgrade. There's no advantage whatsoever except for the new user... who has to have a Mac already. 




NYC Composer @ Tue Dec 13 said:


> Ok, but don't you think the lowered price is a shot across the bow of all other Mac professional DAW developers?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 13, 2011)

Peter wrote:



> You see predatory pricing. I see an overcrowded marketplace flooded with more product than there are customers who can buy it.



I see both.

And I see the predatory pricing as having nothing to do with market conditions* and everything to do with what I wrote twice in this thread: Apple is doing this because they don't care.

* (Other than that $200 is only a low price relative to what sequencers typically cost.)

Larry wrote:



> don't you think the lowered price is a shot across the bow of all other Mac professional DAW developers?



It has that effect, but that's not the intention. Apple figures they can sell lots of Macs by losing money on Logic.

And Peter: Yamaha may be big enough to do the same thing with Cubase, but they don't sell the computers Cubase runs on, so why should they. Avid...well, have you seen their stock price recently? Pro Tools is not a sideline for them.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 13, 2011)

Taking a step back in a different direction: "free markets" are great in principle, but the invisible hand has some major blind spots.

Responsibility to our industry is one of them, and we're seeing that here.


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 13, 2011)

@Nick - I did a piece several years ago doing a stock analysis for Yamaha, Avid and Apple where I noted that Apple had the computers, the OS, the software, the support, etc.

I wrote this a few weeks shy of 4 years ago:
http://soniccontrol.tv/2008/12/18/avid-a-sleeping-giant-awakens-maybe/ (http://soniccontrol.tv/2008/12/18/avid- ... ens-maybe/)


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## NYC Composer (Dec 13, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Dec 13 said:


> Peter wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



People who use DP and Cubase Mac don't buy Apple computers?


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## givemenoughrope (Dec 14, 2011)

Cubase on a Mac here. Logic does cool things and is very robust but Cubase is just easy and does everything I need it to do. I could do without my Mac but prefer the OS. I don't feel stuck with the Logic/Apple combo and wherever it's headed.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 14, 2011)

Peter - very interesting article, but I'm not quite sure where you're going (not in the article, I mean by referencing it).

Our market - serious musicians - is the vital one that has been leading the innovation since the '80s. Education is a big market, but it can't exist in a vacuum for very long, i.e. it's preparing people for careers in...the music industry?


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 14, 2011)

@Nick - If you'd read the Make Music quarterlies you'd see they move about 20,000 units of Finale annually. And that's largely to the academic market. 

All of those students are sales prospects not sales suspects. THey're already pre-qualifed. And for many, their goal is to go professional, whether in film/tv or concert.

Let's say you could get 500 of those students annually to buy an orchestral library.

QLSO Gold ($495) x 500 = $247,500

LASS (999) x 500 = $499,500

VSL Special Edition (525) x 500 = $262,500

Double those numbers for a 1000 sales - annually.

So 1/20 sales penetration, depending on the product, is worth roughly $500,000 to $1,000,000 annually. And that's JUST Finale users.

End marketing/sales insights.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 14, 2011)

That's also interesting - I'd never looked at it that closely.

However...Apple just dropped the price of Logic to $200. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if it were standing on its own it would lose money at that price, but Apple couldn't care less about such a small amount of money; they have $75 billion sitting in a shoe box (or is it more now?). Therefore it's a loss leader, which legally or not is predatory if you're another program that gets eaten.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 14, 2011)

Proving legal predatory pricing would be a nightmare. You'd have to go back to what they paid to Emagic, how may copies they sold for $1000, what their development costs were and continue to be, etc etc.


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## Udo (Dec 14, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> Proving legal predatory pricing would be a nightmare. You'd have to go back to what they paid to Emagic, how may copies they sold for $1000, what their development costs were and continue to be, etc etc.


As I metioned earlier in this thread:

"I believe the only way to fight it in the US is with an antitrust claim of monopolization, but cases are extremely difficult to win, because the antitrust laws are intended to benefit consumers and discounting results in at least short-term benefits to consumers."


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## Waywyn (Dec 15, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> That's also interesting - I'd never looked at it that closely.
> 
> However...Apple just dropped the price of Logic to $200. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if it were standing on its own it would lose money at that price, but Apple couldn't care less about such a small amount of money; they have $75 billion sitting in a shoe box (or is it more now?). Therefore it's a loss leader, which legally or not is predatory if you're another program that gets eaten.



Which brings me to the point why they would do drops in software, but not on hardware?
I recently bought a new graphics card for me Mac and it cost me 250 EUR. You get the same - exactly the same card for PC at around 99! 

Besides that, wether Logic is keeping up with todays others DAWs or not, or if someone is personally pleased - it is a funny thought, like: Hey, I am Alex, I am a pro composer and my core software is a 199 bucks sequencer ... 


Personally I think the main reason is not that they want to make software attractive at a lower price and being the gentle and nice guys. It is simply as Eric said, that noone is selling millions ... and I think they noticed that people turn away from Logic, since its development - and this is just a personal impression - is far far behind any other development of other sequencers. I would go that far and say that it almost looks like as they don't care to bring on development. Why should they? They mke most of their money with portable devices and hobby/home consumers.

I am kind of leaning out of the window with that and I already mentioned it before, but to me it seems that Apple slowly gets out of the pro area, since the development of new MacPros and Pro software is simply not worth it, if you can slam out billions of Pads and Phones ... why should they care!?


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 15, 2011)

Waywyn @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> Logic, since its development - and this is just a personal impression - is far far behind any other development of other sequencers.



You must be right. I can't understand why a guy like Eric uses it :roll:


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## Waywyn (Dec 15, 2011)

Jay, please read: a personal impression

2nd: I know people who still edit audio on the frame system and they do an amazing job. What has the lack of sequencer development to do with someone knowing his sequencer of choice inside out and achieve awesome results and keeps inspiring me for years ... amd if Eric would ask me what I think of Logic, I would tell him my honest opinion about it ... but that would NEVER mean degrading is adorable talents, cool?

Furthermore I am aware that Apple has a different method of updating their pro software and this is not a problem for me and never was ... but after a bunch of month I expect a bit more than just (and please note I am sloghtly exaggerating) a guitar amp and some tempomatch tool!


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 15, 2011)

Waywyn @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> Jay, please read: a personal impression
> 
> 2nd: I know people who still edit audio on the frame system and they do an amazing job. What has the lack of sequencer development to do with someone knowing his sequencer of choice inside out and achieve awesome results and keeps inspiring me for years ... amd if Eric would ask me what I think of Logic, I would tell him my honest opinion about it ... but that would NEVER mean degrading is adorable talents, cool?
> 
> Furthermore I am aware that Apple has a different method of updating their pro software and this is not a problem for me and never was ... but after a bunch of month I expect a bit more than just (and please note I am sloghtly exaggerating) a guitar amp and some tempomatch tool!



Yes but your personal impression is just not realistic. There are areas where Logic's development has been ahead of others and areas where it is behind others but to describe it's devlopment overall as "far far behind" is simply factually inaccurate.


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## Waywyn (Dec 15, 2011)

Jay, I am happy to be proven wrong and I got not the slightest problem admitting it, but nevertheless it was my impression.

When I back the purchased Logic 8 people raved about the awesome freeze option and many other things. When I fired up I seen a very nice GUI, some cool features, but no multistem batch feature, a crappy audio editor and the freeze function took care of just the CPU.

Within Cubase I had multistem rendering function. Like bouncing out 30 stems in like a few minutes. The freezing took care about not only CPU, but also Ram and the Vsti itself. This means literally unlimited tracks!

Then L9 was announced and while they were raving about their guitar amp and the flex time stuff, I already advanced to realtime gumlike wave stretching, an implemented melodyne like feature, an awesome tool for quickly creating a tempo map for a nonclick orchestra (which is kinda weird in Logic to do but almost possible in realtime in Cubase)

I simply couldn't understand those newly hyped featured which had been for months in other sequencers. Hence my impression!


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## spectrum (Dec 15, 2011)

Waywyn @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> It is simply as Eric said, that noone is selling millions ... and I think they noticed that people turn away from Logic, since its development - and this is just a personal impression - is far far behind any other development of other sequencers. I would go that far and say that it almost looks like as they don't care to bring on development.


Just to clarify, I consider Logic Pro to be one of the most advanced sequencers and it still has quite a few useful features that are not implemented on other DAWs. I think they are still leading in development in certain ways...but their update cycle has slowed down quite a bit from their previous years where they updated much more frequently.

I also have little doubt that they will continue to develop Pro and innovative features for the near future and that Logic Pro X will be a very Pro application and not the debacle that Final Cut X was. These are some very smart and savvy guys with a lot of experience.

My concern is more for the long-term. It's much easier for me to imagine Apple dropping Logic Pro 5 years from now for the reason of "it just doesn't make sense anymore". The trend of drastic price reduction is a really bad idea for the kind of long-term development support that huge products like DAWs need.

Take a look:

Logic 7 = $1000
Logic 8 = $499
Logic 9 = $199
Logic X = ???

Where we headed?


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 15, 2011)

Logic XI = free! *



* but you pay 99 cents an hour to use it from the Cloud™


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## Waywyn (Dec 15, 2011)

spectrum @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> My concern is more for the long-term. It's much easier for me to imagine Apple dropping Logic Pro 5 years from now for the reason of "it just doesn't make sense anymore". The trend of drastic price reduction is a really bad idea for the kind of long-term development support that huge products like DAWs need.
> 
> Take a look:
> 
> ...



Thanks Eric, that was basically my concern too when I noticed the price drop. I just added the FinalCutPro chaos to that equation and it just felt like ... I could use that quote from Einstein saying: I am not sure about world war 3, but world war 4 will be with clubs and axes ... whereas world war 3 would be Logic 10 :D

Of course I also think the preferation of specific features are different from user to user. You may not need that many stemming features and focus more on MIDI stuff ... and since me being a guitar player find it pretty cool to have like elastic wav files whereas Logic you still have to cut in a way ....

However, I am not saying that Logic is bad and I found a few features which I would like to see in Cubase (such as real channel slots enabling me to load instruments and effects rightaway). Anyway, don't wanna get into this typical "but my sequencer is able to ...." etc. .. I just expierenced over time that many people I met tend to overhype Logic whereas Cubase they only know from like 10 years back - and to that time, Cubase was seriously a kindergarden software.

Hope you don't get me wrong. I am not saying that you are part of these hyping people. To me the most essential thing is, that a sequencer serves the composers need ... but I think you understand. If Omnisphere would drop to 59 bucks tomorrow or Symphobia bundle to like 199 - I would lose a good portion of trust!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 15, 2011)

"their update cycle has slowed down quite a bit from their previous years where they updated much more frequently."

That can be traced to when Apple bought Emagic. I disagree 180˚ with Alex' personal impression - it's a fabulous piece of software with decades of constant development - but it's also true that the whole project gave at least the outward appearance of having more fire when it was Emagic. They were coming out with updates literally every week.

Also, Alex hinted at the subtext: collateral damage. If a major league sequencer that contains lots of instruments and plug-ins is $200, how can a serious synth or sample library that has to sell for a few hundred dollars even get off the ground?

Have I mentioned that Apple is doing this because they don't care?


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## misterbee (Dec 15, 2011)

They're completely ruthless with partnerships. I hope it backfires on them.

They keep you on until they don't rely on you completely, then they kick you out and spit on you.






Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> Have I mentioned that Apple is doing this because they don't care?


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## Waywyn (Dec 15, 2011)

Nick, I just feel to set this right ... it is not about saying that Logic development in general slowed down or that Apple does not care in general. There has been a lot added and fixed during the recent years and I know that the update process of Logic happened only at like a 6 months phase (and I was fine with that), BUT if I see how Cubase literally shot to the sky by adding awesome stuff I wasn't even able to correctly render a stereo file in Logic ...

I am sure we all remember that weird issue in Logic when stopping a track during a sample or reverb fadeout that the rest of the fade was brought into the playback and even into the final render when playing back or recording the track form the start.

Furthermore I had sessions in Logic and I haven't been able to play back like 10 audio tracks and 5-10 sequencer tracks whereas in Cubase I was able to rock 30 - 40 stems with a bunch of plugs plus aditional MIDI infos.

Again, if one feels comfortable in a program, it is the program of choice, but my personal impression was by observing not just Logic and the internal progress but compared to other sequencers!


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## spectrum (Dec 15, 2011)

Nick, that's exactly right.

Overnight, we went from Komplete 8, Omnisphere, DP, Cubase, Ableton Live, Pro Tools and Logic Pro all being in a similar price range....which makes sense, because they are all multi-dimensional pro products that come with a lot of features.

Now Logic Pro is more like the price of a single instrument sample library. 

It's a little weird for customers to sort out...especially new users.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 15, 2011)

Alex, I don't mean to give you a hard time, and I know you're not saying Apple doesn't care in general. It's a great company, of course, and they clearly care about a lot of things...but the long-term prospects for our industry don't seem to be among them. This is a move that benefits Apple in the short term only; I don't think they're "harvesting" Logic (business-speak for wringing the last money you can out of a product or company before killing it), but the effect is the same. In other words it's not even a good move for Apple in the big picture.

As to your issues with Logic, Alex, it certainly does have bugs from time to time, and it's always been susceptible to temporary insanity in the middle of a project when something gets corrupted. For years I couldn't select wind controller data properly, for example, and I assumed it was a bug...but it turned out to be just one corrupted screenset in my autoload sequence!

However, not being able to play ten audio tracks and 5 - 10 sequencer tracks is not normal. Something else was wrong.


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## Synesthesia (Dec 15, 2011)

This is a strange development.

I have to say that although I currently use Logic, and have had thoughts of trying out Cubase, this move makes me more sure that I should buy a copy of Cubase in January when I've finished my current scoring project.

So, bizarrely, from being on the fence, this price drop has actually garnered Cubase a firm sale in January.

Go figure!


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## Waywyn (Dec 16, 2011)

Synesthesia @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> This is a strange development.
> 
> I have to say that although I currently use Logic, and have had thoughts of trying out Cubase, this move makes me more sure that I should buy a copy of Cubase in January when I've finished my current scoring project.
> 
> ...



Lemme know if you need any help. Once you got it down, Cubase is pretty easy in general and a real flagship ...


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## Waywyn (Dec 16, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Dec 15 said:


> s to your issues with Logic, Alex, it certainly does have bugs from time to time, and it's always been susceptible to temporary insanity in the middle of a project when something gets corrupted. For years I couldn't select wind controller data properly, for example, and I assumed it was a bug...but it turned out to be just one corrupted screenset in my autoload sequence!
> 
> However, not being able to play ten audio tracks and 5 - 10 sequencer tracks is not normal. Something else was wrong.



Hey Nick, I hear ya! Yes, makes sense that Apple absolutely doesn't need the money since they could buy the whole US :D ... however, no matter what the reason is, it just feels odd. To me it is getting towards the niveau of a magix music maker software ... and what scared me is not really the software itself, but all the content. I mean, by spending a few minutes of dragging and dropping a user is able to write like 3 - 4 industry focused licence tracks ... and as people are concerned about YT getting in the way of the record industry, THIS is getting in the way of people living from library music. You know I am certainly for evolution (hrhrhr). You can't change some environments, so I try to feel most confortable in the given one but THIS is getting out of hand in a way ... I should have mentioned that earlier as it makes more sense obviously rather than "rant" on the heap sales price itself!

Regarding the bugs, yes no doubt it could be related to my system, but if every other sequencer works well BUT only Logic, I dunno if the playing back/performance issue has anything to do with my system. I mean there is not much more prefs in Logic than the regular stuff. Surely, if it is something very special as you described with your MIDI problem and a corrupted screensetting but I experienced this overload on not just my computer, but also on my laptop and an external computer in a very huge studio - not to speak of the many people in forums suffering from the same problem ... also the one with hearing relics when stop and start a track!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 16, 2011)

Was it the same session?


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## dcoscina (Dec 16, 2011)

Meh, I tried Cubase 6 again last night but alas, I'm firmly planted in the Pro Tools 10 camp with a little DP7 still. Just a personal preference. Sadly both are not 64 bit...thank God for VE-PRo 5


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## IFM (Dec 16, 2011)

Well, take out the other software bundles, plus the monster printed manual and what did Logic itself really cost? Not that much different I bet. Personally I have Cubase 5 (tried 6), DP7 and Logic and time and time again I always am the most creative in Logic so its price reduction doesn't bother me on its longevity. Likely all new versions will still cost the $199.00...seems like more profit in doing it that way than in charging $499 and a 149.00 upgrade..just my opinion.

Carry on!

Chris


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## Waywyn (Dec 16, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Dec 16 said:


> Was it the same session?



nope!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 16, 2011)

What instruments?


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## Waywyn (Dec 17, 2011)

well nothing special. it happened always by using all kinds of stuff. sometimes with just like 10-15 audio tracks.


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## spectrum (Dec 17, 2011)

Dragonwind @ Fri Dec 16 said:


> Well, take out the other software bundles, plus the monster printed manual and what did Logic itself really cost?


Basically the same. The last version did not come with the same huge printed manuals already. The software bundles were legacy projects that did not cost anything extra to include. As you can see, they are not charging much for them now.

There's actually more cost in the bundled sound licensing, which is still included.

The vast majority of the cost in the product is in the development and support....the coding and support salaries.



> Likely all new versions will still cost the $199.00...seems like more profit in doing it that way than in charging $499 and a 149.00 upgrade..just my opinion.


Check your math again Chris. 

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/LogicStu9Up

The upgrade has been $199...so that part is no different now.

What's different is that every new user pays $300 less to Apple.

So that's not more profit....it's obviously far less. 

It's not clear yet that Apple will actually sell more than double the amount they used to at the new price...especially with eliminating all the steady sales that were coming from the music retailers. It'll likely be a short blip of an increase and then fade quickly.

Now it's just one more item lost in the abyss of the App Store.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 17, 2011)

The App Store. Another race to the bottom.

The one for Macs...that's more of the same. It's in Apple's interest for software to be cheap, since that increases the value of their hardware. Same with music (and all other media) and iPods/iPhones/iPads. 

The one for iOS devices raises all those issues to another level - $.99 for a program?! - and then adds the element of monopoly: there is no alternative to giving Apple 30% off the top; all software must go through them, and if they disapprove for whatever reason then they can decline to accept it. (Yes jailbreaking is legal, but Apple does everything they can to make it difficult, and it voids your warranty.) I don't understand why the Justice Dept. isn't in their shorts.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 17, 2011)

Alex, I don't know what to say. You can put Logic on a 150-year-old computer with a broken hard drive and run 10-15 audio tracks and five MIDI tracks without breaking a sweat.


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## MichaelL (Dec 17, 2011)

Peter Alexander @ Sat Dec 10 said:


> Udo @ Sat Dec 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Isn't what Apple is doing with Logic predatory pricing? It's considered anti-competitive and illegal under competition laws in many countries.
> ...





Ah...anti-trust law...my favorite class in law school. The lower price is a short-term benefit to consumers, which appears to be good old competition at work. However, if the competition ceases to exist because of predatory pricing, then Apple could raise the price of Logic to whatever it wants, which his NOT good for consumers.


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## MB (Dec 17, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ 10th December said:


> The record industry is all but gone. Before that they killed the album as an art form - every song sale on iTunes is a lost album sale.



-Apple killed the Music Industry?
People have stolen music for years-
now Apple shows a way to profit from downloads-
yet it's no good.

-Killed the Album as an art form?
How about making a strong album and not just
two hit singles and a bunch of fillers?
Maybe a lot of people don't want to pay 10 Dollars 
for a whole CD but like to try a song for a Dollar.
(Could result in more fans)

-Apple gets 30% cut
Any store gets a cut, most will take more!

-Predatory pricing
Reaper kills all other DAWS it's only $60

Check the market - there have always been
cheaper daws and more expensive daws. 
Most seem to get along just fine.

Logic is actually not my cup of tea.
I much prefer Pro Tools, despite all its flaws.
Do you think anyone who likes to work with ableton live
would prefer to use logic pro just to save a few
bucks?

-Doesn't pay for small Developers/ race to the bottom
Pixelmator- two guys made 1 million dollar within 20
days on the app store, despite cutting the price in half
to $30.
http://www.pixelmator.com/blog/2011/01/ ... app-store/


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## jleckie (Dec 17, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Dec 17 said:


> Alex, I don't know what to say. You can put Logic on a 150-year-old computer with a broken hard drive and run 10-15 audio tracks and five MIDI tracks without breaking a sweat.



this is true.While my computer is more closer to 100 years old it runs just fine with Logic.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 17, 2011)

MB, you do have a point about Reaper.

However:



> -Apple killed the Music Industry?
> People have stolen music for years-
> now Apple shows a way to profit from downloads-
> yet it's no good.



Let's say they put the final nail in the coffin. Apple shows a way for *Apple* to profit from downloads. Musicians can't produce music for $.99 a song; to overstate it, every single song download is a lost album sale.

Proof: the record industry is all but gone.



> -Killed the Album as an art form?
> How about making a strong album and not just
> two hit singles and a bunch of fillers?
> Maybe a lot of people don't want to pay 10 Dollars
> ...



Proof: the album is gone as an artform.

The first misconception is that albums are just collections of songs. Anyone who grew up listening to records knows that's not the case - they try to be cohesive works that include the cover, the liner notes...even the session musician credits used to be part of the experience.

And this constantly repeated line about "filler" is total BS, in my opinion. It's like saying you should only pay 20% of the price for a baseball ticket because 80% of the time your team's players go to bat and don't get a hit.

Nobody says "I'm going to produce two good tracks and then fill the album with total crap that everybody is going to hate just so I can take their money and laugh at them." If there are two great tracks on album then it costs $10 (actually more) to produce them - and in fact two great tracks is fantastic! Only Stevie Wonder is capable of making every song a masterpiece; it's a percentages game.

Actually the game was larger: each hit album financed many flops, and hit albums were a numbers game.



> -Apple gets 30% cut
> Any store gets a cut, most will take more!



Are you an Apple Swaggart Zombie by any chance? 

I'm not complaining about the mark-up, I'm complaining that they have a monopoly and a conflict of interest.


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## spectrum (Dec 17, 2011)

MB @ Sat Dec 17 said:


> -Doesn't pay for small Developers/ race to the bottom
> Pixelmator- two guys made 1 million dollar within 20
> days on the app store, despite cutting the price in half
> to $30.
> http://www.pixelmator.com/blog/2011/01/ ... app-store/


These are the kinds of stories that get everyone in our little business "drinking the kool-aid". 

The argument is still 100% valid, because we are talking about a niche market, not a mass market product. Siting examples from developers from other areas than music production software are not very useful.

For the discussion to be relevant, it's essential to provide examples from the professional music apps and this range of developers....not other consumer areas or areas where there truly is a much bigger market....like graphics/games, etc....it's a completely different thing in those cases.

What pro music production software developer has done anything like these kinds of numbers or percentage increases due to slashing prices?

I honestly would love to know. Every time I've looked into when a music software company does this, it's proven to be a huge mistake and usually disastrous for their long-term business.


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## spectrum (Dec 17, 2011)

MB @ Sat Dec 17 said:


> -Predatory pricing
> Reaper kills all other DAWS it's only $60


Nah....

Comparing a huge company - that has massive global reach and control over every hardware and software element - that's slashing the price of an established pro product to a one-man company making an entry level product at a low price is not a very valid comparison.

Reaper's a nice product, but it's never been targeted to or accepted by the pro market or priced as a professional music production app. It's used almost exclusively by non-pros and has no significant pro user base.

What we are talking about here are pro-music production DAWs, not entry level products like Reaper.

Reaper is very much shooting for consumer/hobbyist market.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 17, 2011)

Actually I didn't really mean to agree that Reaper kills all other DAWs - I wasn't reading carefully and just wanted to be at least a little bit nice rather than tearing MB to shreds.


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## Hans Adamson (Dec 17, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Dec 10 said:


> > Apple is plowing ahead with their own strategy, with equally negative consequences in other industries such as publications, etc. (
> 
> 
> 
> ...


+1


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## jleckie (Dec 17, 2011)

I think that what we are really talking about is faith in APPLE (and Logic) because they are intrinsically attached) .

Actually Screw APPLE - the real question is "what is the future of Logic?"

For those that hate/dislikeApple and cant stand to have iTunes on their desktop for whatever reason (like "help! Apple has its tangled web on my computer and it knows what I'm thinking [god forbid]) to "NO!!! Dont make me buy a Mac!!!" --those persons will not have anything interesting to say regarding threads like this. They go into it disliking Apple anyways. So please to those people- don't comment. Its a wastes of everyones time.

The REAL question is : "What IS the future of Logic?" 

Will it become a garageband type app? Will it be dumbed down to nothing? or - Will it grow and set milestones for other DAWs to aspire towards (as its done in the past).

These are REAL questions that deserve real answers. Unfortunately all we are left with is hearsay. 

So the waiting game begins.

[IF] you think the worse- then NOW is the time to start thinking about another program.

[IF] you have faith in Logic/Emagic team/Apple] then sure hold on. But remember one thing. 

Apple is funding this endeavor. Make NO mistakes about that.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 18, 2011)

I have 1000s of hours invested in using and teaching Logic. I have a limited but somewhat personal relationship with some of the developers. If Logic eventually no longer is suitable for what I do, my experience gives me confidence that I could be very fluent on another after two weeks of hard work.

So to start learning another now just in case that happens makes no sense to me, especially since in this day and age of companies being bought and sold all the time, there is no guarantee that the on i switch to will not have a similar fate.

People today are waaayyy too over-reactive. The sky is not falling because Apple lowered Logic's price.


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## Waywyn (Dec 18, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Dec 17 said:


> Alex, I don't know what to say. You can put Logic on a 150-year-old computer with a broken hard drive and run 10-15 audio tracks and five MIDI tracks without breaking a sweat.



Thx Nick, well thats why I stated it to be a personal impression. I have just seen so many people talking about this and other significant issues with Logic. To me it was a bit more than just something which happened to me. Anyway, this wasn't the main reason I left Logic. It was simply the fact that the features I would need most were implemented into Cubase on a much higher level than everywhere else!


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## dog1978 (Dec 18, 2011)

I've been at Logic for about 13 years. I am not satisfied with the support, functions, updates, stability. A few times, Logic got me in trouble and cost a lot of time. Now I try Nuendo / Cubase 6 and compare. My heart is open for Steinberg.


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## ThomasL (Dec 18, 2011)

Anybody thought of that everything you create in any DAW on OSX with Lion will be inferior since Lion is so darn cheap?

(ironic)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 18, 2011)

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/19/techn ... hoofinance


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## IFM (Dec 18, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Dec 18 said:


> People today are waaayyy too over-reactive. The sky is not falling because Apple lowered Logic's price.



Here here! =o


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 18, 2011)

FWIW, it's 'hear, hear'. I know. Anal. Sorry.


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## autopilot (Dec 18, 2011)

not 'hear, here'?


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## IFM (Dec 19, 2011)

Listen here, huh? I can't hear you!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 19, 2011)

Here hare here.

(Withnail and I)


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## NYC Composer (Dec 19, 2011)

Hear today, gone tomorrow (the musician's lament)


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## Donmr (Dec 23, 2011)

This whole thread is so "Atlas Shrugged" it's not funny! Ayn Rand would be applauding Apple from her grave!


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## IFM (Dec 23, 2011)

Donmr @ Fri Dec 23 said:


> This whole thread is so "Atlas Shrugged" it's not funny! Ayn Rand would be applauding Apple from her grave!



I have no idea what you just said... :|


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## Donmr (Dec 24, 2011)

Dragonwind @ Sat Dec 24 said:


> Donmr @ Fri Dec 23 said:
> 
> 
> > This whole thread is so "Atlas Shrugged" it's not funny! Ayn Rand would be applauding Apple from her grave!
> ...



Sorry to be so obscure! here is a link to a three part documentary on the subject that you might find fascinating. gives a great inside in what drives companies, particularly high tech companies, to act in the high handed way they do.

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/all-watc ... ing-grace/

Hope you find it interesting! 

Don


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 25, 2011)

In case anyone doesn't know, Ayn Rand had some extremely strange ideas.


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## Strange (Dec 25, 2011)

This thread is weird.

If Apple didn't drop the price, people would be ranting about having to pay a full retail price for just a digital download.

When Apple drops the price, ranting about Apple's monopoly and killing the music software industry and whatnot starts. Apple has had a monopoly and control over numerous fields and markets for a long time already, it's nothing new. And for sure they can do whatever they want to on their own Macintosh platform, because it's theirs.

For people that don't like it, there are always alternatives..


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## NYC Composer (Dec 25, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Dec 25 said:


> In case anyone doesn't know, Ayn Rand had some extremely strange ideas.



Ayn Rand was a virulent anti-Communist, pro-business to the point that she elevated CEO's to godlike stature in her books, and in her personal life, either a dominatrix or someone who acted very much like one in her imperious control over her social group, her meek husband and her young lover.

So what's strange about all of that? :wink:


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 25, 2011)

Strange (capital S from two posts ago)...aw forget it.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 25, 2011)

Forget what?


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## jleckie (Dec 25, 2011)

sounds hot.



NYC Composer @ Sun Dec 25 said:


> Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Dec 25 said:
> 
> 
> > In case anyone doesn't know, Ayn Rand had some extremely strange ideas.
> ...


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## alphabetgreen (Dec 26, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri 09 Dec said:


> ^ Meaning they have much more to gain by getting lots of people using Logic than they have to lose by devaluing competitors' products.



Does that mean Cubase 7 is going to be really cheap?


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## IFM (Dec 28, 2011)

Some random-ish thoughts...

From what I see here and elsewhere two things are happening already. A lot more people are testing the Cubase waters than were going to and Logic has gained may users. The price reduction, at least from a limited outside observation, seems to be benefiting both camps (haven't seen any talk about DP). I can say that I am even one of those as I have all three and finally upgraded Cubase to 6. 

So we fear Logic is going to be lost to the consumer world, dumbed down, etc. I share those fears. One negative aspect that has occurred is now all the retailers that pushed Logic will now push something else. Sweetwater is a fine example where they used to have in house support but as it was put to me the feeling there is Logic will become considered an entry level piece of software on your way up to Cubase, PT, or Nuendo. Obviously it really isn't but when you price something cheap that's what ends up happening to the perception and, how does it go?...Perception is 9/10 of reality?

Chris


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## spectrum (Dec 28, 2011)

Strange @ Sun Dec 25 said:


> This thread is weird.
> 
> If Apple didn't drop the price, people would be ranting about having to pay a full retail price for just a digital download.


Of course there should be a price drop, but a 60% price drop is drastic...hence the thread.



> When Apple drops the price, ranting about Apple's monopoly and killing the music software industry and whatnot starts.


No...only when a company slashes prices drastically and makes radical moves does concern begin.

I think the concern is very valid and justified in this case. It affects our industry a lot.




> Apple has had a monopoly and control over numerous fields and markets for a long time already, it's nothing new.


Actually no. Apple has not had monopoly issues until very recently.



> And for sure they can do whatever they want to on their own Macintosh platform, because it's theirs.


Of course they can....but it may not be a good thing for the music software business and the health of the industry as a whole.

Hence the thread. 



> For people that don't like it, there are always alternatives..


Not when a monopoly kills off competition. 

The point of the concern is that we want to ensure that options continue to grow and be healthy.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 28, 2011)

I'm quite interested by one by-product of all this-of course this is anecdotal, but even here I see renewed (and some new) interest in Cubase Mac, the platform I've worked on for 14 years now. It's had its ups and downs, but Cubase 6 it's a solid, mature platform at this juncture with some very nice features. Still, I thought things would move the other way. I find it a bit baffling.


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## alphabetgreen (Dec 28, 2011)

It really makes no odds to me. I've invested too much time and money in Cubase. I'm now using Artist 6, and I'm not even aware of over half of its facilities. When I am fully proficient with it, I will then, and only then, upgrade to Cubase 6 (the full package), because it will be cheaper both in time in money.

Does seem a waste though to have a box with Cubase Essential 5 in it, and not being able to sell it on, or even give it away, for that matter. But I understand the logic (pardon the pun).


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## IFM (Dec 28, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Wed Dec 28 said:


> I'm quite interested by one by-product of all this-of course this is anecdotal, but even here I see renewed (and some new) interest in Cubase Mac, the platform I've worked on for 14 years now. It's had its ups and downs, but Cubase 6 it's a solid, mature platform at this juncture with some very nice features. Still, I thought things would move the other way. I find it a bit baffling.



I don't know but I think deep down we feel price=quality so when you make something cheap you expect to get what you pay for...or that the price drop and the debacle with FCPX has put enough fear into the pro users that we felt it was time to move on. 

I still love Logic but after spending more and more time with Cubase I am really starting to love it again...and I say again because I had Cubase Score 1.0 back in the day running on a mac. 

Chris


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## alphabetgreen (Dec 28, 2011)

Dragonwind @ Thu 29 Dec said:


> NYC Composer @ Wed Dec 28 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm quite interested by one by-product of all this-of course this is anecdotal, but even here I see renewed (and some new) interest in Cubase Mac, the platform I've worked on for 14 years now. It's had its ups and downs, but Cubase 6 it's a solid, mature platform at this juncture with some very nice features. Still, I thought things would move the other way. I find it a bit baffling.
> ...


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## IFM (Dec 28, 2011)

No I know what you mean and I really am just speculating as to why the shift.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 28, 2011)

Wish me luck gang, I am downloading and will install Lion, even though I think it does not really bring much to the table for composers like us, because some of my Logic Pro clinets have migrated to it. >8o


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## NYC Composer (Dec 28, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Dec 29 said:


> Wish me luck gang, I am downloading and will install Lion, even though I think it does not really bring much to the table for composers like us, because some of my Logic Pro clinets have migrated to it. >8o



Abandon all hope. Send a message from the veldt if you survive.


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## Gerd Kaeding (Dec 29, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Dec 28 said:


> Wish me luck gang, I am downloading and will install Lion, even though I think it does not really bring much to the table for composers like us, because some of my Logic Pro clinets have migrated to it. >8o



_May the force be with you ..._



No , seriously , I think there shouldn't be any difficulties , because meanwhile lots of PlugIns were updated for Lion (_even Audioease and Sonnox finally released their long awaited updates_) , so I'm quite sure you won't have any issues.
Currently I cannot update , but if I had to I wouldn't be afraid doing so.


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## IFM (Dec 29, 2011)

I just recently flipped the main Mac to Lion and it runs quite well. I just had to upgrade a couple of plugins to get them to work again. Logic was perfectly happy. Cubase seems to be too.

Chris


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## ThomasL (Dec 29, 2011)

Lion made me miss my UAD-1 card


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 29, 2011)

ThomasL @ Thu Dec 29 said:


> Lion made me miss my UAD-1 card



All good here so far, including my UAD-2 and UAD 1-e.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 29, 2011)

You're running the 1-E in 32 bit?


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 29, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Thu Dec 29 said:


> You're running the 1-E in 32 bit?



My 2006 Quad Core cannot boot into the 64 bit kernel.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 29, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Dec 29 said:


> NYC Composer @ Thu Dec 29 said:
> 
> 
> > You're running the 1-E in 32 bit?
> ...



Using VE Pro?


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 29, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Thu Dec 29 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu Dec 29 said:
> 
> 
> > NYC Composer @ Thu Dec 29 said:
> ...



I run VE Pro's 64 bit sever connected to Logic 64 bit and I run the UA plugs, which sadly are still 32 bit, in Logic using the 32 bit bridge from both my UAD 2 and UAD 1-e.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 29, 2011)

Just out of curiosity, do you get a full UI when you use them bridged? In Cubase, you have to bring it up by double clicking, then it vanishes when it's not on top.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 29, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Thu Dec 29 said:


> Just out of curiosity, do you get a full UI when you use them bridged? In Cubase, you have to bring it up by double clicking, then it vanishes when it's not on top.



I keep the VE Pro instances on a second monitor but I also use the following helpful freeware:
http://infinite-labs.net/afloat/


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## ThomasL (Dec 29, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ 2011-12-29 said:


> NYC Composer @ Thu Dec 29 said:
> 
> 
> > Just out of curiosity, do you get a full UI when you use them bridged? In Cubase, you have to bring it up by double clicking, then it vanishes when it's not on top.
> ...


Excellent piece of freeware! Thanks Jay!


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 29, 2011)

ThomasL @ Thu Dec 29 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ 2011-12-29 said:
> 
> 
> > NYC Composer @ Thu Dec 29 said:
> ...



You are welcome. I love it.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 29, 2011)

+1 on the thank you-gonna try it tonight.


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## robh (Dec 29, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Dec 29 said:


> Wish me luck gang, I am downloading and will install Lion, even though I think it does not really bring much to the table for composers like us, because some of my Logic Pro clinets have migrated to it. >8o


Why would you be forced to install Lion? Or do you mean that these clients are learning Logic Pro from you, so you need to make sure you are all on the same page, so to speak?

Rob


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 29, 2011)

robh @ Thu Dec 29 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu Dec 29 said:
> 
> 
> > Wish me luck gang, I am downloading and will install Lion, even though I think it does not really bring much to the table for composers like us, because some of my Logic Pro clinets have migrated to it. >8o
> ...



Precisely.


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