# Plugin to position the signal XYZ



## JaikumarS (Nov 29, 2018)

Looking for a third party plugin to position the signal in XYZ(spacing) similar to the one in fruity loops.

Thank you.


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## rrichard63 (Nov 29, 2018)

You might be looking for Plugin Alliance Schoeps Mono Upmix.


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## JaikumarS (Nov 29, 2018)

rrichard63 said:


> You might be looking for Plugin Alliance Schoeps Mono Upmix.


Something for instrument placement in an orchestra. I've used Virtual sound stage but looking for something as cool as the XYZ control that fruity loops has.


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## JaikumarS (Nov 29, 2018)

rrichard63 said:


> You might be looking for Plugin Alliance Schoeps Mono Upmix.


Thanks Richard... Buying it now


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## WindcryMusic (Nov 29, 2018)

Maybe 2CAudio’s Precedence? It is more of an XZ control (left/right, close/far, but no up/down). It can also work in combination with their Breeze reverb to further establish the sense of position in XZ space. 

https://2caudio.com/products/precedence#_Overview


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 29, 2018)

VSL Mir Pro


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## Divico (Nov 30, 2018)

Panagement and Proximity can do XZ for free. Imo you can throw Y axis over board in a normal stereo mix. Ime The effect you can get there is pretty small as well as with panning things behind you. Also keep in mind that some placement plugins work with the Haas effect and measurements from artificial heads. Id suggest beeing careful using this and always check mono compatibility since it can screw up phase correlation in a way you wont like


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## rrichard63 (Nov 30, 2018)

Divico said:


> ... some placement plugins work with the Haas effect and measurements from artificial heads. Id suggest being careful using this ...


Important advice. Such processors are designed mainly for headphones. If it weren't for this issue I'd also suggest looking at Wave Arts Panorama.

I'm afraid I'm not familiar with Fruity Loops/FL Studio.


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## JaikumarS (Dec 1, 2018)

Divico said:


> Panagement and Proximity can do XZ for free. Imo you can throw Y axis over board in a normal stereo mix. Ime The effect you can get there is pretty small as well as with panning things behind you. Also keep in mind that some placement plugins work with the Haas effect and measurements from artificial heads. Id suggest beeing careful using this and always check mono compatibility since it can screw up phase correlation in a way you wont like


Thanks Divico. I always present music in 5.1 so don't think there'll be an issue as I always check the mono compatibility


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 1, 2018)

Altiverb can do that. You just turn off the tail.


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## leon chevalier (Dec 2, 2018)

I use eareverb 2




But don't follow the orchestra drawing, or your percussions will be 100% wet !

The positioning is made with early reflections. Both early reflections module and tail module can be switched off.


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## rrichard63 (Dec 2, 2018)

leon chevalier said:


> I use eareverb 2


Along the same lines, there's also Parallax Audio's Virtual Sound Stage. I haven't tried this, so I can't say anything beyond the fact that it exists. I'm guessing (hoping) that the Plugin Alliance offering will be enough for my purposes.


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## Chris Richter (Dec 3, 2018)

leon chevalier said:


> I use eareverb 2
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All it does is panning and adjusting the dray/wet fader. As it doesn't change the frequency and doesn't have a different early reflection for each position I wouldn't call it actual "positioning". But that could also be me being picky


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## leon chevalier (Dec 3, 2018)

CQrity said:


> All it does is panning and adjusting the dray/wet fader. As it doesn't change the frequency and doesn't have a different early reflection for each position I wouldn't call it actual "positioning". But that could also be me being picky


Hello CQrity, to me the early reflection editor does the left/right positioning and air absorption frequency response :





I'm not at home but I will check this tonight


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## gregh (Dec 3, 2018)

Azimuth isn't really possible in stereo playback unless you have a binaural recording recorded with your head as the recording head. Approximations are possible using generic head related transfer functions and there is pretty good software available that does this for free. But the simulation of front/back/ above/below is more suggestive than accurate.
http://www.cmap.polytechnique.fr/xaudio/mybino/
https://plugins.iem.at/
also https://nuspaceaudio.com/ has some interesting work


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## Chris Richter (Dec 3, 2018)

leon chevalier said:


> Hello CQrity, to me the early reflection editor does the left/right positioning and air absorption frequency response :
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In my test (and I took Screenshots to make sure my eyes didn't fool me) the ERs didn't change for different positions in POS mode. You could change them by hand for sure but that would render the POS mode useless as its main draw is simplicity and speed. I would be glad to be wrong, as I really liked the integration of POS. 
In addition you can't process the direct signal to push it back via high shelving, so you would also have to do that manually before the reverb. The air absorption settings in there just process the ERs, in POS just the tail. 

It might be a good reverb (can't judge that as everybody has a different taste) but it's POS mode is more of a gimmick, unfortunately.


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## Olivier1024 (Dec 3, 2018)

gregh said:


> Azimuth isn't really possible in stereo playback unless you have a binaural recording recorded with your head as the recording head. Approximations are possible using generic head related transfer functions and there is pretty good software available that does this for free. But the simulation of front/back/ above/below is more suggestive than accurate.
> http://www.cmap.polytechnique.fr/xaudio/mybino/
> https://plugins.iem.at/
> also https://nuspaceaudio.com/ has some interesting work


http://anaglyph.dalembert.upmc.fr/index.html#download


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## leon chevalier (Dec 3, 2018)

CQrity said:


> In my test (and I took Screenshots to make sure my eyes didn't fool me) the ERs didn't change for different positions in POS mode. You could change them by hand for sure but that would render the POS mode useless as its main draw is simplicity and speed. I would be glad to be wrong, as I really liked the integration of POS.
> In addition you can't process the direct signal to push it back via high shelving, so you would also have to do that manually before the reverb. The air absorption settings in there just process the ERs, in POS just the tail.
> 
> It might be a good reverb (can't judge that as everybody has a different taste) but it's POS mode is more of a gimmick, unfortunately.


ok, it's a bit disappointing... I will test that too when I will have time !


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## labornvain (Dec 3, 2018)

DearVR is, by my estimation, the best thing going right now in terms of spatialization. At least it's the only one that I'm willing to use because I found that pretty much all the other ones damage the sound quality of the source signal.

It has binaural headphone mode, and a stereo speaker mode. And the built-in Reverb algorithms are really good. The only drawback is it's a bit pricey.


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## rrichard63 (Dec 3, 2018)

labornvain said:


> DearVR is, by my estimation, the best thing going right now in terms of spatialization. At least it's the only one that I'm willing to use because I found that pretty much all the other ones damage the sound quality of the source signal.
> 
> It has binaural headphone mode, and a stereo speaker mode. And the built-in Reverb algorithms are really good. The only drawback is it's a bit pricey.


Okay, I'm going to have to explore DearVR. I've been hearing about it only in the context of Ambisonics. I'll download a trial copy and explore the stereo mode.


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## JaikumarS (Dec 3, 2018)

Ye


labornvain said:


> DearVR is, by my estimation, the best thing going right now in terms of spatialization. At least it's the only one that I'm willing to use because I found that pretty much all the other ones damage the sound quality of the source signal.
> 
> It has binaural headphone mode, and a stereo speaker mode. And the built-in Reverb algorithms are really good. The only drawback is it's a bit pricey.


Yeah... I downloaded the demo and started exploring. It's mind-blowing


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## Olivier1024 (Dec 3, 2018)

labornvain said:


> DearVR is, by my estimation, the best thing going right now in terms of spatialization. At least it's the only one that I'm willing to use because I found that pretty much all the other ones damage the sound quality of the source signal.
> 
> It has binaural headphone mode, and a stereo speaker mode. And the built-in Reverb algorithms are really good. The only drawback is it's a bit pricey.


The other drawback is I can't get mono compatibility in stereo speaker mode with DearVR music V1.2

If there is a way to get mono compatibility with DearVR music, I would like to know how to.


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## Jerry Growl (Dec 3, 2018)

Interesting thread. I have 2C Precedence & Breeze. Works not bad, but I think the idea of placing an instrument at the back of the room resulting in a 100% wet reverb is rather silly. There should be like a parabole curve to this instead of a linear one when placing a sound source further away. Also the doppler effect should be applied accordingly. That would be more realistic. DearVR sounds interesting, but how does it hold when mixing just stereo and not binaural?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 3, 2018)

Waves has a doppler plug-in. It's called...

Doppler.


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## thevisi0nary (Dec 3, 2018)

Me thinks someone has been watching Alex Moukala!


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## re-peat (Dec 4, 2018)

*DearVR* lacks quite a lot of important parameters, I find. Other than 'damping' and 'size' (and a few minor reflection parameters), there's nothing available to control the sound/character/behaviour of the room or the reverberation with.
Spent some time with the demo and it does seem quite good at putting things in "a space" though, and the quality of its reverberation is not to be laughed at either, but without that control — a generous set of parameters that allows one to carefully define the (sound of the) room, the sort of reverberation it generates AND the way the room interacts with the source — I find this plugin only marginally appealing _for musical purposes_. (I fear, for example, that its uncontrollability would quickly become a very frustrating obstacle when doing a full mix.)

By far "the best thing going in terms of spatialization" remains *IrcamSPAT*, in my view. Not cheap, but unchallenged in its usefulness, versatility and quality of results.

_


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## Jerry Growl (Dec 4, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Waves has a doppler plug-in. It's called...
> 
> Doppler.


Yes we all know that one. It's become more of an ancient relic. Not very practical imo. But heck, I'll experiment with it and see if it can improve contrast front to back.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 4, 2018)

Jerry Growl said:


> Yes we all know that one. It's become more of an ancient relic. Not very practical imo.



Who is "we?" Are you a member of the Sneer At NB When He Mentions Waves Doppler club - the one with standing room only when they rent out Dodger Stadium?

What makes it an ancient relic?

Why is it not practical to create doppler effects? Heck, I do that every day.

Okay, maybe not every day.

Okay, maybe I've never had reason to do that. But it's only 2018.


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## Mike Doyle (Dec 5, 2018)

rrichard63 said:


> You might be looking for Plugin Alliance Schoeps Mono Upmix.


Awesome plugin...Exactly what I was looking for...Thank you so much for the suggestion...Just purchased it.


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## Chris Richter (Dec 6, 2018)

@leon chevalier maybe you want to check out EARevolve:
https://www.eareckon.com/en/products/earevolve-stereo-chorus-rotary-speaker-plugin.html
If I am not mistaken you can create ERs with it so it would work well with EAReverb.
Check out https://www.admiralbumblebee.com/music/2018/09/15/my-favorite-plug-in-of-2018-earevolve.html for a good view on what it does.


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## Wassim Samad (Dec 6, 2018)

If your question is based on Alex Moukala's video the approach is different than using a X-Y-Z signal position plugin.

His X-Y-Z controller is a functionnality from Fruity Loops that let him assign any parameter of his daw to the X, Y, Z axis.

X is for panning.

If you want to reproduce his effect of distance (Y axis) with another DAW you can create two buses (one 100% dry, one 100% wet) and send your channel output to those two buses.
His Y axis is just determining how much sound goes to the first bus and how much goes to the second one.

His plugin is just a visual helper for this but it does not come with reverb, er and other stuffs which let you use the reverb of your choice.


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## leon chevalier (Dec 6, 2018)

CQrity said:


> @leon chevalier maybe you want to check out EARevolve:
> https://www.eareckon.com/en/products/earevolve-stereo-chorus-rotary-speaker-plugin.html
> If I am not mistaken you can create ERs with it so it would work well with EAReverb.
> Check out https://www.admiralbumblebee.com/music/2018/09/15/my-favorite-plug-in-of-2018-earevolve.html for a good view on what it does.


Thanks !


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## rrichard63 (Dec 12, 2018)

Here's one more possibility: Ina GRM Tools Spaces. I don't know about mono compatibility, and it's only available in a bundle with two other plugins. At the moment the bundle is on sale for 60% off. I hope to find time to demo this during the sale.


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## leon chevalier (Dec 13, 2018)

CQrity said:


> In my test (and I took Screenshots to make sure my eyes didn't fool me) the ERs didn't change for different positions in POS mode. You could change them by hand for sure but that would render the POS mode useless as its main draw is simplicity and speed. I would be glad to be wrong, as I really liked the integration of POS.
> In addition you can't process the direct signal to push it back via high shelving, so you would also have to do that manually before the reverb. The air absorption settings in there just process the ERs, in POS just the tail.
> 
> It might be a good reverb (can't judge that as everybody has a different taste) but it's POS mode is more of a gimmick, unfortunately.


You where right, the POS mode only do panning. It's disappointing. There is an ER PAN bouton : 




But it seems to only pan the ER... It should instead add a delay between right ER and left ER to create the panning feel.

I will email the dev to be sure


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## rrichard63 (Dec 13, 2018)

rrichard63 said:


> Here's one more possibility: Ina GRM Tools Spaces. I don't know about mono compatibility, and it's only available in a bundle with two other plugins. At the moment the bundle is on sale for 60% off. I hope to find time to demo this during the sale.


Never mind. This is intended for surround mixing and playback on surround systems. It will let you mix for stereo playback but in that mode it is essentially the world's most complicated panner and Doppler effect.


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## rrichard63 (Dec 13, 2018)

I just reread this thread from the beginning and (finally) noticed this:


JaikumarS said:


> ... I always present music in 5.1 ...


I've been commenting based on the assumption of stereo playback, and it's possible that others have too. Looking at Fruity X-Y-Z Controller for the first time, it now seems to me that the original question has to do with a specific user interface model for controlling spatialization rather than an algorithm for simulating it. @JaikumarS, am I right?


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## JaikumarS (Dec 13, 2018)

rrichard63 said:


> I just reread this thread from the beginning and (finally) noticed this:
> 
> I've been commenting based on the assumption of stereo playback, and it's possible that others have too. Looking at Fruity X-Y-Z Controller for the first time, it now seems to me that the original question has to do with a specific user interface model for controlling spatialization rather than an algorithm for simulating it. @JaikumarS, am I right?



Hey Richard, Yes, for spatialization  (Schoeps mono upmix and dear vr music)plugins did the job for me


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## rrichard63 (Dec 14, 2018)

JaikumarS said:


> (Schoeps mono upmix and dear vr music)plugins did the job for me


I'm glad you have found what you needed.


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