# Anxiously Waiting for Waves to Drop Their Prices to $29



## robgb (Jul 19, 2022)

I've heard they may have a sale soon.


----------



## synthetic (Jul 19, 2022)

Here's the Waves sale trap though: you buy a $29 plug-in, it updates your Waveshell to the latest version, all of your old Waves plug-ins are out of WUP coverage, you pay $170 to get your old plug-ins working again. This happened to me enough times that I just uninstalled their stuff.


----------



## Daniel James (Jul 19, 2022)

Don't get involved with Waves. They will literally take any excuse to 'upgrade' the software to latest version, which you will have to pay to use. Then they stop support for an older version, even if it was working fine, and make it difficult to roll back to an earlier version.

Its sort of like a shitty forced subscription. Attached is what I have to spend to get the native versions of plugins I ALREADY FUCKING OWN up to the latest version. Some of them I had just over a year, but due to my computer dying and being forced onto the next mac OSX update they were now no longer supported......even though they DID still actually work if you loaded them via a bridge like 'Patchwork', proving they still work, waves just doesn't want you to use the old version.

Scummy practices all around. Don't let the sales rope you in unless you need something for right now, but think of it more like a rental than a purchase. 

Perhaps the shittiest company in our field.

-DJ


----------



## Pier (Jul 19, 2022)

Daniel James said:


> Don't get involved with Waves. They will literally take any excuse to 'upgrade' the software to latest version, which you will have to pay to use. Then they stop support for an older version, even if it was working fine, and make it difficult to roll back to an earlier version.
> 
> Its sort of like a shitty forced subscription. Attached is what I have to spend to get the native versions of plugins I ALREADY FUCKING OWN up to the latest version. Some of them I had just over a year, but due to my computer dying and being forced onto the next mac OSX update they were now no longer supported......even though they DID still actually work if you loaded them via a bridge like 'Patchwork', proving they still work, waves just doesn't want you to use the old version.
> 
> ...


Honestly I'm surprised they are still in business at all.

Not only because of their shady practices but also the products themselves are not that competitive anymore.


----------



## husker (Jul 19, 2022)

synthetic said:


> Here's the Waves sale trap though: you buy a $29 plug-in, it updates your Waveshell to the latest version, all of your old Waves plug-ins are out of WUP coverage, you pay $170 to get your old plug-ins working again. This happened to me enough times that I just uninstalled their stuff.


That is just not true at all. You can have multiple versions of Waves installed and working at any one time. 

This is just misinformation.


----------



## Damarus (Jul 19, 2022)

husker said:


> That is just not true at all. You can have multiple versions of Waves installed and working at any one time.
> 
> This is just misinformation.


Without pulling your hair out though?


----------



## easyrider (Jul 19, 2022)

Waves- Get Wupped in the ass!


----------



## Pincel (Jul 19, 2022)

I know this thread is for comedic purposes, but I just want to say, screw Waves. They had their day once upon a time, but now I can't even take them seriously anymore with the constant sales and overall screwery they pull. Like Pier said, I don't think they're even that competitive anymore. Many of their products are still good, but in the end they're just alive based of their old glory days and all the big names that keep using and endorsing those products, likely because they can't be bothered to try anything new.


----------



## jules (Jul 19, 2022)

husker said:


> That is just not true at all. You can have multiple versions of Waves installed and working at any one time.
> 
> This is just misinformation.


100%. Have v9/10/11/12 and never wuped. Works pretty fine. It’s mac os that’s to blame.


----------



## rsg22 (Jul 19, 2022)

husker said:


> That is just not true at all. You can have multiple versions of Waves installed and working at any one time.


Yeah confirming - using the Waves installer app (forget what it's called), I have 8 plugins across 3 versions installed. Back when I used to buy Waves (past tense), I never WUP'd any previously purchased plugins.


----------



## PeterN (Jul 19, 2022)

Yea, Im ready to donate my Waves plugins (I throw them out soon) but Im not sure if that is a moral thing to do, as it feels like I am passing the scam to someone. Like you bought a pizza with bad shrimp, and "generously" donate it to someone. Maybe throw them in bin instead.


----------



## SupremeFist (Jul 19, 2022)

I'm actually grateful for the WUP insanity in a way as it has motivated me to go out and find other versions of stuff I was using Waves for, just to avoid this nonsense, and almost all of the time they turn out to be better anyway.


----------



## proggermusic (Jul 19, 2022)

In case anyone is interested, I'd be happy to recommend excellent-quality alternatives to any Waves plugins people might be interested in. I've done quite the survey in the last few years, am very happy with my tools at the moment, and use zero software from Waves quite contentedly.


----------



## MegaPixel (Jul 19, 2022)

The Waves Sale That Never Ends... (DFS Sofas?)

I think it's a right of passage, you must be sucked in to buy at least 1 waves plugin before you can truly start asking yourself... "Why, just why did I buy this.....?"


----------



## EanS (Jul 19, 2022)

They're $25_ish at Best Service 😂


----------



## robgb (Jul 19, 2022)

synthetic said:


> Here's the Waves sale trap though: you buy a $29 plug-in, it updates your Waveshell to the latest version, all of your old Waves plug-ins are out of WUP coverage, you pay $170 to get your old plug-ins working again. This happened to me enough times that I just uninstalled their stuff.


This has never happened to me and I have plugins going back to Waveshell 10. They do tell me I CAN update, but I never do, and the plugins still work just fine. And I'm on a Mac.


----------



## robgb (Jul 19, 2022)

As for Waves plugin quality, I think it's competitive, certainly at the price. But if they all crashed tomorrow, the only two I'd really miss are Clarity (which is amazing for noise suppression—even better than RX in my opinion), and Schep's Omni Channel, which I love.


----------



## Mike Greene (Jul 19, 2022)

Daniel James said:


> Don't get involved with Waves. They will literally take any excuse to 'upgrade' the software to latest version, which you will have to pay to use. Then they stop support for an older version, even if it was working fine, and make it difficult to roll back to an earlier version.
> 
> Its sort of like a shitty forced subscription. Attached is what I have to spend to get the native versions of plugins I ALREADY FUCKING OWN up to the latest version. Some of them I had just over a year, but due to my computer dying and being forced onto the next mac OSX update they were now no longer supported......even though they DID still actually work if you loaded them via a bridge like 'Patchwork', proving they still work, waves just doesn't want you to use the old version.
> 
> ...


That sounds sadly familiar. I'd be tempted to just drop Waves altogether, but Renaissance EQ and Compressor were staples in so many of my old tracks, that it's worth paying the "upgrade" fee, just for the convenience. (I've got a gig right now that's revisiting ten year old tracks.) In other words, sure, I could swap in a different EQ or de-esser or whatever, but time is money, so ... I'll bend over and pay the WUP.


----------



## robgb (Jul 19, 2022)

proggermusic said:


> In case anyone is interested, I'd be happy to recommend excellent-quality alternatives to any Waves plugins people might be interested in. I've done quite the survey in the last few years, am very happy with my tools at the moment, and use zero software from Waves quite contentedly.


Waves Clarity Vx. The closest I've come to finding an alternative is the now defunct ERA version. And no, RX doesn't even touch Clarity in terms of quality.


----------



## sostenuto (Jul 19, 2022)

Mike Greene said:


> That sounds sadly familiar. I'd be tempted to just drop Waves altogether, but Renaissance EQ and Compressor were staples in so many of my old tracks, that it's worth paying the "upgrade" fee, just for the convenience. (I've got a gig right now that's revisiting ten year old tracks.) In other words, sure, I could swap in a different EQ or de-esser or whatever, but time is money, so ... I'll bend over and pay the WUP.


Likely 'My Bad', but never ever really clear on much older Waves content and how to make it work now. Actually had telecon with Waves Support _ months ago _ and he ran me through steps to rectify inability to see / run that content in latest version. We finished, and nothing changed. Most now not usable.
Will truly appreciate directions on how others how no issues !! Using Win11 Pro / Reaper latest here.
When running Waves Central it downloads 'new' version. Is doing so right now. 
Asks about remaining with V9-V13, but so far have not sorted how to do this properly.
All Licenses are on USB dongle.


----------



## YaniDee (Jul 19, 2022)

I really don't get these issues.. I have about 60 waves plugins, from v9 to v14..they all run fine and I feel zero need to upgrade. You go to the waves site, download the installers for previous versions, and install what you need.


----------



## method1 (Jul 19, 2022)

Never had any troubles with waves, I have owned Mercury since 2011. I have had to WUP a few times along the way, most recently when I migrated to apple silicon, and usually do it when there's a sale on, and then through a 3rd party like audiodeluxe, the WUP usually comes with a bunch of new plugins that were added since the last time. The plugs are very stable & there's tons of useful stuff in there. If I had to start again today I'd probably look elsewhere but I'm glad to have Mercury, pretty much covers every use case for me.


----------



## MegaPixel (Jul 19, 2022)

Waves has partnered up with Ice-o-Tope


----------



## sostenuto (Jul 19, 2022)

YaniDee said:


> I really don't get these issues.. I have about 60 waves plugins, from v9 to v14..they all run fine and I feel zero need to upgrade. You go to the waves site, download the installers for previous versions, and install what you need.


Soooo. I simply need to do this for each installer from v9 forward ? I now have up to v13 content.


----------



## Vonk (Jul 19, 2022)

MegaPixel said:


> Waves has partnered up with Ice-o-Tope


One knob to rule them all...and in the darkness bind them. (Extr from Lord of the Knobs)


----------



## YaniDee (Jul 19, 2022)

sostenuto said:


> Soooo. I simply need to do this for each installer from v9 forward ? I now have up to v13 content.


Yes!!


----------



## Daniel James (Jul 19, 2022)

husker said:


> That is just not true at all. You can have multiple versions of Waves installed and working at any one time.
> 
> This is just misinformation.


My expired plugins and old sessions that I can't work in until I pay to upgrade disagree with you. You literally can't even load the v9 plugins anymore. Even though they still work if you trick the waveshell into thinking it's a v10 then you can load it in Patchwork, but the v9 shell will say not supported on osx12 and try to delete itself.

But no, you can't. Eventually, your waves plugin will not work, the shell will not work on a new operating system then you either upgrade or don't use it.

And yes one should upgrade from a v9 by now, but I refuse to pay the blackmail. Fuck that I have alternatives now.

If you are gunna come at me with 'misinformation' claims at least be sure of what you are saying. Unless you have v9 plugins working natively on OSX 12? which I doubt, but could be true. As far as I can see and the error messages I get, you can't run v9 plugins from OSX12. Which means update, or stop using. And that is my point. I have v10, v11 and v12 plugins. But eventually they wont work, even if they technically could and they will be updated, but regardless of if the update is just a 'make it work' update with no new additions at all, you have to pay to upgrade. 

And to the other post above, its not OSX's fault entirely. Waves is clearly looking for any opportunity to up that WUP version number so they can tie people into the WUP system. This isn't a new complaint. And reading around the internet v9 started the waves ball ache at OSX Catalina, so the wheel does seem to keep turning.

Eventually, the next version 'wont be supported' even if it works, meaning they will remove the old installers from the waves installer, so if you need to re-install you have to do so from a legacy installer, which they don't update. So if the updater isn't supported on your OSX no install, if you get it installed, you re then, as I am now on OSX12, going to be confronted with an error along the lines of Waveshellv9 isn't supported would you like to move it to the trash...which doesn't sound particularly supported or native like some of you are saying it 100% is. 

So if you are one of those who seemingly have old v9's running on osx12 firstly, how. and Secondly is that nativly supported or are you using a workaround. Neither of which I would consider working at 100% as you are saying above. And lastly proof and a step by step guide would help, cause if I can use the plugins I will. But I am not going to pay anymore for them.

-DJ


----------



## NoamL (Jul 19, 2022)

Daniel James said:


> Don't get involved with Waves. They will literally take any excuse to 'upgrade' the software to latest version, which you will have to pay to use. Then they stop support for an older version, even if it was working fine, and make it difficult to roll back to an earlier version.
> 
> Its sort of like a shitty forced subscription. Attached is what I have to spend to get the native versions of plugins I ALREADY FUCKING OWN up to the latest version. Some of them I had just over a year, but due to my computer dying and being forced onto the next mac OSX update they were now no longer supported......even though they DID still actually work if you loaded them via a bridge like 'Patchwork', proving they still work, waves just doesn't want you to use the old version.
> 
> ...


x100 Daniel

Soundshifter Pitch & Kramer Tape are keeping me in their ecosystem. If I could find good replacements for those... I'd be out.


----------



## Daniel James (Jul 19, 2022)

YaniDee said:


> I really don't get these issues.. I have about 60 waves plugins, from v9 to v14..they all run fine and I feel zero need to upgrade. You go to the waves site, download the installers for previous versions, and install what you need.


Unless they are not supported on your platform. like say OSX12 or M1 chip macs?

There will come a point mate where whatever operating system you are working at to keep those older plugins alive, will need updating for something that matters to you. Usually a DAW upgrade you need which forces you to upgrade it all. Then you will see what its like to go from 60 plugins down to whatever you have at the latest version and being told even tho we can make this work and you wont get any new features, and it possibly could work with a loophole, you can't use these plug ins you already paid for unless you give me more money.

You don't see the issue? or you don't care because it hasn't affected you yet? Because I think the issue is pretty overt. If you buy into waves, at some point they will find a way to stop it working (as the numerous people chiming in on this thread alone or even the most kindergarten grade google search of the issue would show have happened to them), So they can charge you again to make it work again. Again I had v9 working on systems you literally couldn't install directly to, but I had to trick the waveshell into thinking it was v10 just so I could load it in a 3rd party bridge Patchwork. Which says to me they could make your old plugins work, but they WANT you to pay to keep it working. And yeah, as I said fuck that.

But there if a difference between not seeing the issue and not caring because you are not affected. If other people clearly are surely you can at least see you are on the lucky end. This isn't a unique to me issue I think.

First its not supported. Then it's difficult to install or authorize. Then it stops working. And this was from two FULL osx upgrades ago. We are currently on v13 plugins and I started buying in at v8. Are we really clinging to the notion that they are all still 100% useable natively without upgrading? Cause genuinely if you figured it out tell us how. Cause again I'll use the plugins if they work, but I'm not upgrading just to, I have alternatives for most now.

Update 1, I'm just gonna try to install this shit to show you.

Just checked Waves site and v10 alone:

Not supported on macOS Catalina (10.15) and above






Update 2: Downloaded the v9 installer from their site as it says to do and immediately hit two errors which were basically the same (see above). That 'please click here' link in the UI leads back to where I downloaded the file from originally which states:

"To run Waves plugins on Mac OS Mountain Lion 10.8.5 and Mavericks 10.9.5, you must use the v9.6 offline installer for Mac.

If you wish to use Waves plugins v9.92 or later, please update your Mac OS to a more recent version."

Obviously I am upgraded way beyond that, to the point the installer doesn't even recognize my system anymore....this 100% it works thing isn't looking too good.

Update 3, v9 Installer wouldn't install as OS unsupported (even attempting separate offline installers):

And finally, they then push you to download the v9 offline installer and install THAT via the latest Waves Central which gives you.






And finally, even though that initial error screen says already installed plugins will work. As soon as I installed OSX12, I got an OSX error saying waveshellv9 it wasn't supported and would I like to move it to the trash.

Again - @YaniDee @method1 @husker - if you can let me know how you got it working I would be very happy to be proven wrong. At least then I could use the fucking things.

-DJ


----------



## Daniel James (Jul 19, 2022)

Mike Greene said:


> so ... I'll bend over and pay the WUP.


Literally how its designed. Thats why it makes me more angry than regular corporate bullshit. Its made to make feel like the only option is to just take it. Im not particularly good at doing that, so my bad.


----------



## husker (Jul 19, 2022)

Daniel James said:


> My expired plugins and old sessions that I can't work in until I pay to upgrade disagree with you. You literally can't even load the v9 plugins anymore. Even though they still work if you trick the waveshell into thinking it's a v10 then you can load it in Patchwork, but the v9 shell will say not supported on osx12 and try to delete itself.
> 
> But no, you can't. Eventually, your waves plugin will not work, the shell will not work on a new operating system then you either upgrade or don't use it.
> 
> ...


I use Windows, a real OS.


----------



## Pier (Jul 19, 2022)

husker said:


> I use Windows, a real OS.


I use and enjoy both on a daily basis... but it's true Apple operating systems are *really bad* with backwards compatibility.


----------



## sostenuto (Jul 19, 2022)

husker said:


> I use Windows, a real OS.


Has not helped in my case. I go back to DOS and earliest MS since. In recent times, Waves has missed massive orders here _ as their WUP(s) is an 'anchor' at best. No more _ NONE /DONE !
Holy CRAP ! _ PA is /and is likely far better path forward.


----------



## Daniel James (Jul 19, 2022)

husker said:


> I use Windows, a real OS.


You could have just written the second part and I would have picked up the first part based on the kind of....person that would say something like that 😂

Great clapback, doesn't help me though.


----------



## husker (Jul 19, 2022)

Daniel James said:


> Great clapback, doesn't help me though.


No problem, I always enjoy some random guy on the internet calling me a prick.


----------



## Daniel James (Jul 19, 2022)

husker said:


> No problem, I always enjoy some random guy on the internet calling me a prick.


Well I did change it, I was trying to grow as human....but alas no.

To me people who use clap backs as a discussion technique tend to go in the prick category for me, not objectively, just to me. Probably still fit into that category myself at times, but I at least acknowledge to myself that it is a prickish way to act. When we are discussing stuff, your clapback doesn't help, just serves to wind me up rather than just continue the debate, you knew that when you typed it. Which is fine, but its a pricky thing that pricks do, and that's what you did.... so I simply mentioned as such. The people who tend to refer to their operating system as superior also usually tend to be pricks, but they tend to come from the windows side, the hipsters and elitests tend to come from the mac side.....but pricks always seem to be windows.....which in this case the evidence does seem to fit.

Though I did think it might be a bit to strong for this particular topic so, as I mentioned, in my path of growth out of my own prickish ways, changed it to be more neutral and diplomatic. But hey if that's what you wanna focus on, and dig up, I'm down for it, I have a lot of unfortunate practice with this kinda nonsense. 😂

But for real sorry for calling you a prick. I am a reactive guy. It makes me better at my job but I can be quite prickly if I don't catch myself.


----------



## Alex Niedt (Jul 19, 2022)

This all seems to boil down to Apple's absolute lack of concern for backward compatibility, which sounds incredibly frustrating. But for those on Windows, it's true that there is no issue with running whatever versions and combinations of Waves plugins you'd like without WUP. Two different conversations/viewpoints going on here, both valid.


----------



## Daniel James (Jul 19, 2022)

Alex Niedt said:


> This all seems to boil down to Apple's absolute lack of concern for backward compatibility, which sounds incredibly frustrating. But for those on Windows, it's true that there is no issue with running whatever versions and combinations of Waves plugins you'd like without WUP. Two different conversations/viewpoints going on here, both valid.


Agreed. I will definitely be shifting some of my ire towards Apple in light of this new understanding. However I still think in general my point is valid that Waves seems to know exactly what they are doing in trying to (in Mikes words) bend you over to and take the upgrade, by making it more and more difficult to keep them running/working/installing...and with some DAW's starting to go 64 bit only I imagine some of the windows folks are in for a bit of the shit Mac seems to get more of when it comes to support of older plugins.

But yeah given that PC compatibility doesn't seem to be quite as maliciously set up as the Mac one I will move them down in my estimation from malicious corporate overlords to....well seeing as they seem to work longer on PC perhaps, ironically, malicious pricks. They might not be looking for every excuse to WUP you in the ass, but they know exactly what they are doing in the long game and I still think its malicious 😂

-DJ

btw I use this stupid fucking face 😂 to try to show people that, while what I am typing I do infact mean, I don't mean it as aggressively as it looks. This is just how I talk in real life, I do realize it doesn't translate well. But the more I try to type professionally, the more I look like one of those bellends that try to sound smart online by using long words...its like a rock and a hard place, I have two modes people generally say I come across as....angry insufferable prick - pretentious condescending asshole.....and I know it really looks that way but genuinely so much is lost in translation, if we had these conversations in person you would understand exactly that I mean well, and there is an actual nuence to what I'm saying, that _I_ see but am discovering that unless you talk like me you might miss....in text, without the nuence I just look angry and chaotic. Which is partly true, but its mostly I talk like a south London peasent and don't know better ways to express how I feel other than _using my words! I don't know how to talk different_ 😂


----------



## paulmatthew (Jul 19, 2022)

I've only done the WUP once in maybe 5 years and I won't be renewing again. They still cannot get all the plugins into a single waveshell to run in certain DAWs. The business tactics has rubbed so many the wrong way in the past few years while other plugin companies are doing it much better and with a lot less bloat to our systems.


----------



## Damarus (Jul 19, 2022)

paulmatthew said:


> I've only done the WUP once in maybe 5 years and I won't be renewing again. They still cannot get all the plugins into a single waveshell to run in certain DAWs. The business tactics has rubbed so many the wrong way in the past few years while other plugin companies are doing it much better and with a lot less bloat to our systems.


This.

Sure _I can _get it to work on Windows. But The plugins aren't that monumental for me to have to jump through hoops to use something I paid for..


----------



## PeterN (Jul 20, 2022)

Daniel James said:


> Literally how its designed. Thats why it makes me more angry than regular corporate bullshit. Its made to make feel like the only option is to just take it. Im not particularly good at doing that, so my bad.


Yup, also when they sent the "instructions" how to go back to earlier version (on Mac), it is like assembling a rocket to space. Its intentionally complicated. Then, mysteriously, the instructions dont work, and when you contact support via email, it is 10 days before the reply bcs so "busy". (This happened during the 2019 BF "free" distortion plugin. It was a meticulous setup. I had to pay the 220USD but threatened them with lawsuit). Meanwhile they had locked all Waves plugins on ALL projects. F+ck them. Done. Oh, and btw, after paying 220 USD (which I had, but imagine someone having economy bad), the plugins were exactly same as before.


----------



## robgb (Jul 20, 2022)

People getting butthurt over waves charging for upgrades yet have no problem plunking down a few hundred bucks for a minor DAW upgrade. The irony....


----------



## easyrider (Jul 20, 2022)

robgb said:


> People getting butthurt over waves charging for upgrades yet have no problem plunking down a few hundred bucks for a minor DAW upgrade. The irony....


Thing is most DAW upgrades are meaningful to some extent….Waves updates are mostly not….only a select few have the GUI HD upgrade etc…

The updates for V14 are only for a few select plugins not the whole catalogue.


----------



## PeterN (Jul 20, 2022)

robgb said:


> People getting butthurt over waves charging for upgrades yet have no problem plunking down a few hundred bucks for a minor DAW upgrade. The irony....


Point is they forced the "upgrade" with a meticulous extortion plan. They had all your projects hijcaked, with locked plugins unless you pay. (220USD)

We didn't want their fu...ing "upgrade". They gave no choice. After 2 weeks of locked projects, you finally get instructions how to assemble a space missile - instructions, that doesn't work.

What a scum of a company. Hope local Americans reported them to consumer rights protection office. They should be sued.


----------



## robgb (Jul 20, 2022)

easyrider said:


> Thing is most DAW upgrades are meaningful to some extent….Waves updates are mostly not….only a select few have the GUI HD upgrade etc…
> 
> The updates for V14 are only for a few select plugins not the whole catalogue.


I think compatibility with an upgraded operating system is pretty meaningful.


----------



## easyrider (Jul 20, 2022)

Daniel James said:


> The people who tend to refer to their operating system as superior also usually tend to be pricks, but they tend to come from the windows side, the hipsters and elitests tend to come from the mac side.....but pricks always seem to be windows.....which in this case the evidence does seem to fit.


I would 100% aspire to be a prick than a elitist hipster….But waves know this….they know that MAC users don’t mind investing in planned obsolescence. They know MAC users will buy hardware again and again despite of the costs to stay current, and they know MAC users actually justify being ripped off right left and centre.

So waves exploit this MAC insecurity.

Us,the windows users are the pricks, that upgrade our hardware when we deem fit and mix and match components to suit are needs and budgets….so waves just let us get on with it.

Us pricks are seen as second class citizens….Take UAD and other elitist church for MAC users….Us pricks using windows can’t use Spark yet….and windows support is flaky at best with UAD hardware….but UAD don’t care for us pricks that upgrade our hardware when we deem fit and mix and match components to suit are needs and budgets….so UAD just let us get on with it.

I have waves plugins and use windows and all my plugins still work fine. But I don’t use them anymore.

I’m just looking forward to using Native UAD plugins in the autumn. As this will really quash any elitist crap being spouted by mac users about the superior nature of UAD plugins and the constant justification of using Sharc DSP that’s 15 years old.

I can then ditch UAD Spark subscription, as subscriptions are crap, and move back to using other plugins on windows like a prick.

These plugins won’t be waves though as I moved on from the company.


----------



## AudioLoco (Jul 20, 2022)

I can't believe there is still controversy about this:

If you are an Apple user all those updates they make on their OS without backwards compatibility renders software obsolete and in need of updates and work and hours of re-coding put into it. (It's still full of software out there that is not even compatible with their "new" processors).
Waves's business model is low prices on purchase plus a yearly sub basically to make the software still work *in the Apple ecosystem.*
If I was an Apple user myself (not opening PC vs Mac debate surely that is even more boring then chatting about WUP) I would have ditched most of my Waves stuff and I fully understand people being unhappy - although the fault is mostly in Apple's policy of selling nice looking slick machines and basing their commercial success on selling new shiny machines every year, so the obsolescence is kind of part of their money making system.

Luckily I'm a PC user (converted) and *I NEVER NEEDED EVER EVER EVER to WUP* in years and years.
I am happy to use everyday amazing Waves tools that are still relevant today and still sound great and help do my work and pay the bills.
I agree that lately there aren't that many incredible plugins coming out from them but some oldies are really great and some have no substitute (for me) at the moment.

So....
Mac user: no Waves unless you are OK with basically a subscription.
Windows users: Waves no problem, cheap, professional plugins that get the job done.
Simple.


----------



## HCMarkus (Jul 20, 2022)

Well, I'm a Mac guy. Been using Waves since Gold cost me $999 in 2003. It is slightly irksome that this package can now occasionally be found priced as low as $99, but the market has changed dramatically in the almost 20 years that have since passed.

I just WUPped for the first time last November, during a Black Friday WUP sale, in anticipation of moving my computer to Apple Silicon. Waves was among the first plugin developers to provide full AS-Native compatibility. (For you Windows people, just in case you've somehow missed the story completely, AS is an ARM-based CPU/GPU that requires software to be re-written from X86-based code to run natively). I didn't feel at all bad about spending under $200 to bring my many Waves plugins to V13 status. I've since upgraded to V14 at no cost and, absent spectacular developments, have no intention of WUPping again.

I have upgraded my Waves package over the years at nominal expense (usually thru AudioDeluxe, to save a bit more), which took care of upgrading older products along the way. No separate WUP required. Until my recent WUP, I was running v9-10-11-12 versions of various plugins on my Mac without issue.

To my mind, Waves provides excellent value for the money, regardless of whatever OS one is running. They perform well and are stable, and Waves has a product to handle a majority of audio processing needs. Just say no to WUP unless you really need it.

And, Mac folk, just say no to moving to the latest Mac OS until the .3 version, and then, only if you need to. Saves a lot of headaches. I make my living with the machine, and try to use my DAW computer as much like an appliance as possible.

As for Windows folks, please don't shift this discussion into an OS debate. Thanks!


----------



## Mike Greene (Jul 20, 2022)

robgb said:


> People getting butthurt over waves charging for upgrades yet have no problem plunking down a few hundred bucks for a minor DAW upgrade. The irony....


Given that you're the one who started this thread, where it doesn't exactly take a clairvoyant to guess where the conversation would go, and given the nature of various other of your threads, it's a bit rich for _you_ to be throwing around terms like "butthurt." Just sayin'.


----------



## MegaPixel (Jul 20, 2022)

Lets all take a moment to breath and calm down... Take it easy... Gooosfraba...

What do you think this is KVR?


----------



## paulmatthew (Jul 20, 2022)

Wup isn’t the main issue. It’s trying to reinstall or installing older versions when needed. The installation process is a nightmare unless you have WUP to the latest versions. Wup is fine every 3-5 years.


----------



## timbit2006 (Jul 20, 2022)

Pier said:


> Honestly I'm surprised they are still in business at all.
> 
> Not only because of their shady practices but also the products themselves are not that competitive anymore.


their major income earner is live sound. Soundgrid is used very often. Scamming newbies into thinking they have found the deal of a lifetime is just a side hustle for them.


----------



## robgb (Jul 20, 2022)

Mike Greene said:


> Given that you're the one who started this thread, where it doesn't exactly take a clairvoyant to guess where the conversation would go, and given the nature of various other of your threads, it's a bit rich for _you_ to be throwing around terms like "butthurt." Just sayin'.


I don't disagree! But my point still stands.


----------



## kitekrazy (Jul 20, 2022)

Pier said:


> Honestly I'm surprised they are still in business at all.
> 
> Not only because of their shady practices but also the products themselves are not that competitive anymore.


They make great stuff. It's their reputation among professionals and the low price brings in those naive plugin hoarders. 

Their licensing scheme sucks. A long time ago when there was the NSS forum there was over 30 pages of why people were done with Waves.


----------



## proggermusic (Jul 20, 2022)

Seems like there are indeed a few specific Waves tools that are indispensable for a lot of engineers, and I fully respect that. I've never relied on those, but for most audio processing needs, I've been very happy with these developers:

Valhalla DSP (for reverb and delay)
Plugin Alliance (Brainworx and NEOLD, mostly)
Black Rooster Audio 
Fuse Audio Labs
Soundtoys (oldies but goodies)

Anyway. Waves has been in business for a long time, I respect that they need to pay their developers, and they make good stuff. No bad will toward anyone who makes good use of their software to make good music!


----------



## Pier (Jul 20, 2022)

kitekrazy said:


> They make great stuff


I'm not saying their stuff is bad (from a DSP standpoint). Back 15-20 years ago Waves were simply the best, but it was a very different world.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 20, 2022)

robgb said:


> People getting butthurt over waves charging for upgrades yet have no problem plunking down a few hundred bucks for a minor DAW upgrade. The irony....


Well, if you want to go down that road....when is the last time Apple charged for a Logic upgrade? Other than the major leap to Logic X, it was 2013. Waves updates are pathetic, they want me to WUP for archaic plugins that I bought 20 years ago.....with zero updates. Just sayin'......


----------



## Daniel James (Jul 20, 2022)

robgb said:


> People getting butthurt over waves charging for upgrades yet have no problem plunking down a few hundred bucks for a minor DAW upgrade. The irony....


Depends what you value I guess. My DAW upgrades have never felt predatory or cash grabby without very few exceptions (none that come to mind at least but I’m sure there are examples)

Also DAW upgrades tend to offer more to make you want to upgrade, ya know… like fucking upgrades. The point of upgrading a DAW usually extends beyond just making the fucking thing keep working, which is usually all you get from a wup update, even years later. Sure it might take a bit of programming to make it work on a new OS, but considering every other plug-in dev on the planet managed to find a way to make plugins work with a new OS update without charging a fucking fee every opportunity they get leaves that particular point a bit weak.

DAW upgrades also tend to focus on other aspects besides just making things work like hardware compatability, new network integration features that lets me work live with others across the world, video editing features, video export options, hardware integration, workflow improvements, graphic updates…etc etc….. but that’s not quite the same as buying an EQ for the 5th time from Waves… it’s not really the same thing with the same type of value for the composer. Apples and oranges a bit.

And as infinitely humorous as it was to call everyone butthurt, which came across really really intelligent and helpful in your head…doesn’t really make sense. You were, I assume trollingly making a post about waves sales. For those who saw the thread and maybe thought that actually waves looks like a good deal, I chimed in it’s not a good idea because of this shit we have been on their case about for years. Then someone said that wasn’t true and I was lying, to which I literally went out of my way to show what I was saying. For some reason there comes a point when it just devolves to this petty bullshit. I know I contribute to it, being petty to petty people is in my survival instincts I guess, but when I do it I make sure that I am at least offering a full point of view that moves the conversation forward first… until, like I said, someone starts being a dick, then you sort of open the right to be a dick to you, you don't do it to people actually just discussing the fucking thing you started the thread for, that is just dumb. And it doesn’t help the conversation nor does it help the toxicity of this site. Again I know I contribute too, but mine tends to be a reactions to dickish behaviour of others not contextually appropriate complaints and I tend to try to rectify my prickish ways once that initial reaction to someone being a prick calms down a bit. I’m actively working on mine, but I think some of you might need to have a look at yourselves and asking if what you are typing is going ti help or cause more toxicity. It’s hard, particularly if you are in anyway wrong, but it’s worth it, cause being a prick to the wrong person at the wrong time can be more than you bargained for or anticipated.


----------



## Reid Rosefelt (Jul 20, 2022)

Mike Greene said:


> That sounds sadly familiar. I'd be tempted to just drop Waves altogether, but Renaissance EQ and Compressor were staples in so many of my old tracks, that it's worth paying the "upgrade" fee, just for the convenience. (I've got a gig right now that's revisiting ten year old tracks.) In other words, sure, I could swap in a different EQ or de-esser or whatever, but time is money, so ... I'll bend over and pay the WUP.


I've always said that you're a master marketer, Mike. 

BEND OVER AND PAY THE WUP! 

That should be in all their ads.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 20, 2022)

Daniel James said:


> every other plug-in dev on the planet managed to find a way to make plugins work with a new OS update without charging a fucking fee


^ this. Waves is the only developer that has ever wanted to charge me for plugins I already bought (and paid a lot of $$ for). Using an OS update as a reason is pure BS. It's ransom, nothing more.


----------



## Pier (Jul 20, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Waves updates are pathetic, they want me to WUP for archaic plugins that I bought 20 years ago.....with zero updates. Just sayin'......


I don't want to appear I'm defending Waves... I'm not.

But to be fair, devs have to go through a lot of crap just to keep current projects running in modern OS. Specially Apple ones.

In consequence, the model of buying software once just doesn't work anymore. Software companies have to come up with new business models to keep the cash flow coming so they can sustain the dev dept.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 20, 2022)

Pier said:


> I don't want to appear I'm defending Waves... I'm not.
> 
> But to be fair, devs have to go through a lot of crap just to keep current projects running in modern OS. Specially Apple ones.
> 
> In consequence, the model of buying software once just doesn't work anymore. Software companies have to come up with new business models to keep the cash flow coming sot they can sustain the dev dept.


I get it, but what other developer in this industry has such charges? Waves isn't even a small developer, they are the Walmart of plugins, I'm sure it's not going to put a dent in their overhead.


----------



## Pier (Jul 20, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> I get it, but what other developer in this industry has such charges? Waves isn't even a small developer, they are the Walmart of plugins, I'm sure it's not going to put a dent in their overhead.


I agree and, like I said before, I'm not defending Waves.

It's just that people have no idea what it takes even running the same software with no new features.


----------



## robgb (Jul 20, 2022)

Daniel James said:


> Depends what you value I guess. My DAW upgrades have never felt predatory or cash grabby without very few exceptions (none that come to mind at least but I’m sure there are examples)


I guess I'm mostly thinking of DAWs that wait months to update to a new version then actually charge for it, which I find a bit cash grabby. My DAW of choice (after using Sonar, Cubase, Logic and Studio One for multiple years each) is now Reaper, which updates regularly and does it completely free. You aren't charged again for several years. You buy version 5.0, you won't be charged again until version 7.0, and even then the amount is minimal.

With Studio One, I had to drop at least $100 to get a new version. Don't know what it's like for Cubase or Logic. But if they're charging at least $100, I'm not sure I see the problem with Waves asking for a few bucks to update for compatibility. And in most cases you can ignore the updates. Like I said, I'm still using Ver. 10 of Waves plugins, and I'm pretty sure they're up to ver. 14 now.

That said, there are tons of alternatives out there nowadays and I don't begrudge anyone staying away from Waves. I actually prefer Melda plugins for the most part and tend to buy them when they're having a megasale. I just don't think Waves is predatory, since you have a choice not to update.


----------



## Nimrod7 (Jul 20, 2022)

Alex Niedt said:


> This all seems to boil down to Apple's absolute lack of concern for backward compatibility, which sounds incredibly frustrating.


Apple is focusing a lot on privacy, restricting access to the kernel, having apps being sandboxed etc.
That's why it's breaking compatibility, because the devs they were accessing stuff they shouldn't supposed so, and yes, they are forcing them to fix those issues. 

It's not like Apple woke up and said, let's mess with the developers, let's break backward compatibility. 
They said, this is has to stop, because it's breaking the OS, it's not a good software engineering practice, and any app can steal your personal information without you knowing anything.

It messed up a lot of things, especially drivers that did years to recover (because they were operating at kernel level), but most of them came through...


----------



## jcrosby (Jul 20, 2022)

Nimrod7 said:


> Apple is focusing a lot on privacy, restricting access to the kernel, having apps being sandboxed etc.
> That's why it's breaking compatibility, because the devs they were accessing stuff they shouldn't supposed so, and yes, they are forcing them to fix those issues.
> 
> It's not like Apple woke up and said, let's mess with the developers, let's break backward compatibility.
> ...


There's an even simpler and more practical reason (IMO).

It was known that Apple was dropping Intel as of 2018. Considering how complex it is to design something as complicated as a CPU; then factoring in the development needed to migrate the OS; then factoring in legacy support for intel on both Intel macs and m1/m2 macs via Rosetta 2.... It's pretty conservative to assume Apple started designing AS as early as 2016. Chronologically this all lines up with all of the major changes to macos since 2016...

APFS, dropping 32 bit support, hardened runtime, etc. This is also when they introduced the T1, followed by T2, which looking back indicates the 1st phase of bringing the same type of hardware level encryption ios already had to the mac....

While Macos has gone through a ton of changes over the past 6 years, it's pretty safe to assume much of it was to make way for the shift to Apple Silicone. And while there will inevitably still be some growing pains in the future, I actually think we're over the worst of it... (At least in terms of Apple Silicone.) Especially when you look at ios as an example of how seemless OS updates tend to be despite processor architecture changing each year...


----------



## Pier (Jul 20, 2022)

Nimrod7 said:


> Apple is focusing a lot on privacy, restricting access to the kernel, having apps being sandboxed etc.
> That's why it's breaking compatibility, because the devs they were accessing stuff they shouldn't supposed so, and yes, they are forcing them to fix those issues.
> 
> It's not like Apple woke up and said, let's mess with the developers, let's break backward compatibility.
> ...


That's really not what's happening, at least for the most part.

Here are a couple of examples.

MacOS had an API called Carbon which was used to create Cocoa GUIs with C++ (instead of Objective C). It helped companies to create apps that worked on both macOS and Windows. Apple announced they were porting it to 64 bits and a year before the break with 32 bits code, Apple said it had dropped that project. This put entire businesses that depended on Carbon out of macOS since they couldn't afford to rewrite all the macOS exclusive code.

Here's another one. Since the advent of time, macOS has included obsolete versions of OpenGL that are like 4-5 years behind the latest version. Instead of supporting Vulkan, Apple decided to implement a proprietary graphics API called Metal. Since then, Apple has deprecated OpenGL compatibility and has been about to remove it a couple of times, angering the community of developers.

Last example. iOS only allows to run its own web engine called Webkit which runs Safari. All third party browsers on iOS (Chrome, FF, etc) are really skins of Safari. This is bad for a number of reasons but specially because for years Safari hasn't followed web standards. Web devs, such as as myself, need to constantly implement hacks to keep stuff running in Safari.

So yeah, Apple breaks compatibility and doesn't give a fuck what how it impacts third party devs.

Furthermore, Apple doesn't give enough time for devs to react. A deprecation of a major API should be announced years in advance (like what happened with Carbon). Apple, at the most, gives you a 12 month notice.


----------



## Nimrod7 (Jul 20, 2022)

``


Pier said:


> MacOS had an API called Carbon which was used to create Cocoa GUIs with C++ (instead of Objective C). It helped companies to create apps that worked on both macOS and Windows.


Ah, come on! You're talking about an API developed in 2000? There are tons of deprecated API's in any platform. You want them to continue supporting APIs that don't scale in modern architectures?



Pier said:


> Here's another one. Since the advent of time, macOS has included obsolete versions of OpenGL that are like 4-5 years behind the latest version


OpenGL is a horrendous API, really badly designed, even in the latest version. It was not evolving also. 
Vulkan didn't existed when Metal was announced if I am not mistaken, and Metal is fantastic, really fantastic, and extremely powerful. Vulkan is also a level lower, it would be tedious for programmers to use it in common scenarios. 
Most of the apps out there are using wrappers anyhow, and it's quite easy to go cross platform. 



Pier said:


> So yeah, Apple breaks compatibility and doesn't give a fuck what how it impacts third party devs.


I personally upgraded many applications over the years. It starts with the WWDC announcement and getting the beta OS / XCode, not when the OS releases to public.
A few lazy devs out there are waiting for OS to get released to start working on updates. 
I never delayed an app getting out at the right time, it's not a big effort either, you just need to plan it. If you do what as a dev you supposed to do, write apps without 3 thousand warnings, and keep them updated to the deprecations and the recent SDKs, you will be fine. 

Most of the devs don't care, that's my view.



Pier said:


> Furthermore, Apple doesn't give enough time for devs to react. A deprecation of a major API should be announced years in advance (like what happened with Carbon). Apple, at the most, gives you a 12 month notice.


Well, OpenGL is still there. The other updates as I said above, if you code as you supposed to, you will not face issues. 

We got the thread sidetracked, and I guess people might get unhappy,


----------



## Daniel James (Jul 20, 2022)

robgb said:


> My DAW of choice (after using Sonar, Cubase, Logic and Studio One for multiple years each) is now Reaper, which updates regularly and does it completely free. You aren't charged again for several years. You buy version 5.0, you won't be charged again until version 7.0, and even then the amount is minimal.


This right here is the same logic I am applying to Waves. The competition is showing how it can be done, how you can have good prices and still offer great support. So when held in comparison the things they are doing overtly different stand out more, and if they are bad things like bending you over to take the WUP every few months (for some users not Windows it seems) makes that bad decision feel even more so. So it was never about being butthurt its more that there are so many examples of it being done well that they have to know how shitty the WUP comes across but they stick to it. Which makes me warn people off of them. As you have seen in this thread alone, while some people are fine with them, lots of people are frustrated, so mentioning that and backing it up has more to do with highlighting how shit their service can be to people who don't realise. I do the same thing often with other companies who I think are doing something poorly when compared to various external examples of it being done well. Its sort of like trying to inform people of these areas so that they don't fall into this WUP pit with the rest of us. There are better alternatives out there, regardless of how enticing the waves 'sales' are, they find a way to fleece you eventually. Hasnt happened to Windows users yet, but some DAWs are going 64bit only now which might start the snowball for them, as I believe some of the older ones never made that jump.



robgb said:


> That said, there are tons of alternatives out there nowadays and I don't begrudge anyone staying away from Waves.


This is sort of what I mean with the Butthurt statement above BTW. If this is how you feel, calling us butthurt, knowing full well that would wind people up, just serves to draw toxicity out of people. Had you written this instead, I would not only have agreed with it, it wouldn't have caused me to react to it. Which I tend to do, even if I don't want to. I appreciate that you changed your approach to wording like this however as its perfectly diplomatic and neutral and makes it easier to respond without feeling like I need to 'fight back'. So I just wanted to highlight and thankyou for this particular positive step.



Pier said:


> But to be fair, devs have to go through a lot of crap just to keep current projects running in modern OS. Specially Apple ones.


Thats fair, but at the same time, if they choose to not update the software people paid for and it no longer works. The devs can't really ct surprised when people are frustrated that the thing they bought doesn't work anymore, and the dev wont help you unless you pay more money. I think its also worth pointing out that move is even more frustrating when literally every competitor manages to find away. Sure some old lost or closed dev plugins may go out of date if there is no one to update anymore, but Waves are still releasing new content. So they not only know what they are doing, the are clearly leaning into it. 

So I think, as a customer of said products, It totally fair for me to highlight that in a thread and mention why its bad, and that people would be better off in the long term with alternatives from less frustrating devs. 

And when people say why don't you just upgrade...I got a lot of my plugins at v8, my free 1 year WUP took them to v9. To update them all costs from that point on like $300+ and its been that way since my first WUP ran out. So I think this is a relevant thing to draw attention to when people suggest that the waves $29 deals are a good deal. And sure, but so long as you know that its more like a year licence of the plugin rather than owning it like one would for so many other plugins. And I think that's shit. So I call it such.



Pier said:


> It's just that people have no idea what it takes even running the same software with no new features.


Of course we have an idea. But its an expectation we tend to have that if we buy a thing, they will at least make sure it works. Like lots of DAWS, VST instruments like Omnisphere, Slate, Fabfilter, are all 'unsupported' when a new OS comes out. Even some of the Windows ones. We all get those emails telling us not to update our OS yet. Then a few months later the patch comes out to keep your purchase working. Waves would use that as an opportunity to WUP you in the ass. I think you know this too, hense why you are reluctant to defend them outright. And this is what I am saying, I understand wanting to give them some slack, but when it comes to business I will always point out areas I think are bad and warn people off of them. Particularly if there are good examples to reference.

-DJ


----------



## HCMarkus (Jul 20, 2022)

I'd just like to reiterate that WUPping is only necessary when a plugin stops working. And that has yet to happen to me on macOS. But I don't chase the OS upgrade machine either. Apple provides Security Updates for macOS for three years after a new OS version is released. No one says we need to move to the newest OS version every year. I'd argue doing so is a bad idea if you are running a DAW unless you need features the new version provides and/or enjoy troubleshooting more than making music. 

There are lots of approaches to software. I get it if you don't like Waves, but can't see the company as an evil empire duping innocents.


----------



## Technostica (Jul 20, 2022)

You also need an active WUP if you want to:

1. Use a license on two machines simultaneously.
2. Sell a license. Fees are additional and based on the full price which can be dramatically higher than what you paid.

Before I had gotten deep into the Gold bundle, I decided that I didn't like the company's business strategies so sold my plugins.
I didn't find them bad except for the GUIs which they are slowly improving.

It feels good not to support a company whose practices you don't approve of.
I wouldn't recommend them to newbies.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 20, 2022)

robgb said:


> Don't know what it's like for Cubase or Logic.


Logic X has always had 100% free updates. They even throw in a ton of extra content with each major update (ie; Alchemy).


----------



## robgb (Jul 20, 2022)

Daniel James said:


> This is sort of what I mean with the Butthurt statement above BTW. If this is how you feel, calling us butthurt, knowing full well that would wind people up, just serves to draw toxicity out of people.


Hey, I already owned up to the butthurt comment after Mike called me out. The thing is, I'm not really wrong. Waves isn't holding a gun to anyone's head here, so the sturm and drang over their business model strikes me as a bit silly. This thread started with me making an obvious joke about their constant sale prices and, of course, the haters had to come and turn it into something else. Which is _exactly_ why I made the butthurt comment. I figured the OP was good for an innocent laugh. Seems I miscalculated. For that, I apologize.

Seriously, folks, lighten up. It's fucking software.


----------



## paulmatthew (Jul 20, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Logic X has always had 100% free updates. They even throw in a ton of extra content with each major update (ie; Alchemy)


And the OS is free but , Apple makes the money back through what they charge for RAM now that it's integrated. Nothing is ever truly free with Apple but it's a good point that the updates are free of charge at the time of updating.


----------



## Gary Williamson (Jul 21, 2022)

proggermusic said:


> In case anyone is interested, I'd be happy to recommend excellent-quality alternatives to any Waves plugins people might be interested in. I've done quite the survey in the last few years, am very happy with my tools at the moment, and use zero software from Waves quite contentedly.


do you have a recommendation to replace the Aphex Vintage Aural Exciter? thanks!


----------



## easyrider (Jul 21, 2022)

Gary Williamson said:


> do you have a recommendation to replace the Aphex Vintage Aural Exciter? thanks!











SPL Vitalizer MK2-T


Make music and speech more comprehensible, loudness more intense, and the stereo width of songs wider using the SPL Vitalizer MK2-T unmasking EQ.




www.plugin-alliance.com


----------



## kitekrazy (Jul 21, 2022)

Pier said:


> I'm not saying their stuff is bad (from a DSP standpoint). Back 15-20 years ago Waves were simply the best, but it was a very different world.


I guess if I had to do it over again I would have bought only the Renn plugins.


----------



## kitekrazy (Jul 21, 2022)

easyrider said:


> I would 100% aspire to be a prick than a elitist hipster….But waves know this….they know that MAC users don’t mind investing in planned obsolescence. They know MAC users will buy hardware again and again despite of the costs to stay current, and they know MAC users actually justify being ripped off right left and centre.
> 
> So waves exploit this MAC insecurity.
> 
> ...


The biggest pricks by far are the Linux users. to them it's giving the middle finger to the giants. They are the most delusional users (just wait for this to draw comments) thinking it's easy. My definition of easy if my mom could figure it out and use it then it's easy.
Anyone saying Windows users are the biggest pricks seems not very informative or ceated a strawman. This isn't the only forum on the planet and have yet to see any torching of one's choice of platform.
Interesting the Apple vs. PC debate is one is a hardware company and the other is software.


----------



## kitekrazy (Jul 21, 2022)

Pier said:


> I don't want to appear I'm defending Waves... I'm not.
> 
> But to be fair, devs have to go through a lot of crap just to keep current projects running in modern OS. Specially Apple ones.
> *
> In consequence, the model of buying software once just doesn't work anymore.* Software companies have to come up with new business models to keep the cash flow coming sot they can sustain the dev dept.


 There are a few rare developers that do that. Image Line, Bandlab and Melda are a few. Part of that is they don't have the overhead like some companies.


----------



## kitekrazy (Jul 21, 2022)

paulmatthew said:


> And the OS is free but , Apple makes the money back through what they charge for RAM now that it's integrated. Nothing is ever truly free with Apple but it's a good point that the updates are free of charge at the time of updating.


Well Windows has been free for those who had W7. Unfortunately both have the (d)evolving OS. Part of me wished MS would go back to paid upgrades and service packs instead of f'updates. Acronis has become my friend.


----------



## Pier (Jul 21, 2022)

Daniel James said:


> Of course we have an idea. But its an expectation we tend to have that if we buy a thing, they will at least make sure it works.


Even though it's more nuanced than that, I tend agree. Like I said, I'm not defending Waves here 

But I want to illustrate a point with a very exaggerated analogy: If you decided to change the type of gas you use in your car, you wouldn't go complaining to the car manufacturer that your car doesn't work, right?

Well that's what happens when we decide to update to an OS. We're trying to use a product in conditions which it wasn't coded to run. But of course we expect devs to support a product until the end of times.

Another interesting point is _why_ we have these expectations but this is a matter for another thread. I've derailed this thread too much with my rants.

Anyway, let me get back on topic. Yeah fuck Waves! 🤘


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 21, 2022)

kitekrazy said:


> Well Windows has been free for those who had W7.


If I recall correctly, Win 10 was only a free upgrade for a limited time.


----------



## Daniel James (Jul 21, 2022)

easyrider said:


> I would 100% aspire to be a prick than a elitist hipster….But waves know this….they know that MAC users don’t mind investing in planned obsolescence. They know MAC users will buy hardware again and again despite of the costs to stay current, and they know MAC users actually justify being ripped off right left and centre.
> 
> So waves exploit this MAC insecurity.
> 
> ...


To be clear I’m not saying all windows users are Pricks. But the kind of person who would call a DAW superior would usually be a windows user and that kind of person is a prick. A Mac user would usually lean more on ‘it just works’ or ‘dat integration’ which is more hipster or elitist to me. It’s not a ‘ahaha I am the king’ it’s more like ‘you wouldn’t get it man’ and there is a difference.

Now I see what you are actually trying to do there is imitate my prick post by sort of answering the question but instead trying to use the word prick as much in a humors over exaggeration of uses, lol which I already did so is a bit lame to do again but I appreciate the effort, problem here is it made sense when I did it because of the context of me trying to no longer use the word, then the guy not accepting my apology and bringing it back up, leading to a reason to overuse it for a banter like effect.. it’s wasn’t an excuse to keep calling windows people pricks like you are doing so I fear the joke went right over your head. I’m not sure why exactly you gave it a go, because in your example you are not using it the way I would do it looks a little more petty, mine was banter your just looks like a piss poor attempt to try to turn it around without realizing I’m just fucking about, or you took it a bit to much to heart. And lol I know you already fit in the prick category already, I just didn’t pin you as this uncreative or petty. Haha, but yea pricks like you will have to wait for the UAD upgrade as you said and hipsters like me will have to not lean on waves. That’s the conclusion I came to too.

Not sure how I even saw your message I have you ignored but lol at least I got to see the ‘quality content’ of yours I have been missing. I hope your music isn’t as derivative 😂


----------



## Henu (Jul 21, 2022)

I use a PC and am a horrible elitist. Beat that!


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 21, 2022)

Daniel James said:


> To be clear I’m not saying all windows users are Pricks. But the kind of person who would call a DAW superior would usually be a windows user and that kind of person is a prick. A Mac user would usually lean more on ‘it just works’ or ‘dat integration’ which is more hipster or elitist to me. It’s not a ‘ahaha I am the king’ it’s more like ‘you wouldn’t get it man’ and there is a difference.
> 
> Now I see what you are actually trying to do there is imitate my prick post by sort of answering the question but instead trying to use the word prick as much in a humors over exaggeration of uses, lol which I already did so is a bit lame to do again but I appreciate the effort, problem here is it made sense when I did it because of the context of me trying to no longer use the word, then the guy not accepting my apology and bringing it back up, leading to a reason to overuse it for a banter like effect. I’m not sure why exactly you gave it a go, because in your example you are not using it the way I would do it looks a little more petty, mine was banter your just looks like a piss poor attempt to try to turn it around without realizing I’m just fucking about, or you took it a bit to much to the heart. And lol I know you already fit in the prick category already, I just didn’t pin you as this uncreative or petty. Haha, but yea pricks like you will have to wait for the UAD upgrade as you said and hipsters like me will have to not lean on waves. That’s the conclusion I came to too.
> 
> Not sure how I even saw your message I have you ignored but lol at least I got to see the ‘quality content’ of yours I have been missing. I hope your music isn’t as derivative 😂


I often wonder if certain forum members would respond like that if they weren't posting anonymously.


----------



## Daniel James (Jul 21, 2022)

Henu said:


> I use a PC and am a horrible elitist. Beat that!


----------



## PeterN (Jul 21, 2022)

HCMarkus said:


> I'd just like to reiterate that WUPping is only necessary when a plugin stops working.


In 2019 they generously gave a "free" plugin and adjusted the Waves Central so that - once you downloaded the "gift" - and registered it in their hijack central - all your Waves plugins were "updated". So you found yourself with all your Waves plugins locked (stopped working) unless you paid for the hijack fee. In my case it was 220 USD. There were some instructions how to go back to V9, they sent 2 weeks later, when banging on their support door 2 weeks. This V10 to V9 sheet looked like solving a infamously difficult mathematical formula - it was 2 pages long if I recall correctly. I didn't get it working. What a fuck-ng nice gift for someone who had spent a thousand with them already. Long story short, I demanded an apology from a senior and got one. Now they are dished.


----------



## timbit2006 (Jul 21, 2022)

Gary Williamson said:


> do you have a recommendation to replace the Aphex Vintage Aural Exciter? thanks!


You can buy one of the original units for like 300something bucks on a good day.


----------



## X-Bassist (Jul 21, 2022)

Gary Williamson said:


> do you have a recommendation to replace the Aphex Vintage Aural Exciter? thanks!


KUSH Clarphonic !!!! Aphex doesn't come close and I've used both for many years. Found this a few years ago and never went back (Every year they have a half price sale if it's steep for you)...








Clariphonic DSP MkII - Parallel Equalizer


Re-modeled from the ground up using all new algorithms and filters, the Clariphonic DSP MkII sounds markedly smoother than the original plugin, and is considerably more powerful thanks to 3 processing modes: Classic Stereo, Dual Mono, and Mid-Side. With custom oversampling algorithms...




thehouseofkush.com




Great on Vocals, strings, mixes... adds clarity (very clean harmonic distortion) that's not in the recording/samples (not possible with normal eq). Highly recommend trying the demo








Downloads







thehouseofkush.com





I also recommend Novotron... awesome compressor that can make mixes sound better...








Novatron - Varitone Tube Compressor


Novatron is an analog-modeled compressor that borrows so many sonic properties from so many different classing hardware units that, ironically, it could only exist in the world of DSP. With separate in/out Transformer Saturation, two optional Tone Circuits, and a monstrous compressor with...




thehouseofkush.com





Amazingly good sounding plugins that work well on tracks and full mixes


----------



## szczaw (Jul 21, 2022)

Apple is doing fine in audio. I use some financial software on PC that is simply not available for Apple at any price. This makes Win and PC superior in general sense. Renosie is also a superior daw.


----------



## Daniel James (Jul 21, 2022)

PeterN said:


> In 2019 they generously gave a "free" plugin and adjusted the Waves Central so that - once you downloaded the "gift" - and registered it in their hijack central - all your Waves plugins were "updated". So you found yourself with all your Waves plugins locked (stopped working) unless you paid for the hijack fee. In my case it was 220 USD. There were some instructions how to go back to V9, they sent 2 weeks later, when banging on their support door 2 weeks. This V10 to V9 sheet looked like solving a infamously difficult mathematical formula - it was 2 pages long if I recall correctly. I didn't get it working. What a fuck-ng nice gift for someone who had spent a thousand with them already. Long story short, I demanded an apology from a senior and got one. Now they are dished.


This was literally my villain origin story too. They were suckering people into getting the free thing. Overwrote my old version, wouldn't let me roll back without jumping through more hoops than a fkn show dog....or do the wup dance. I haven't updated those once since. Such a shame really, Waves plugins themselves are not that bad, and I would love to integrate them more. But now I just cant leave them in sessions, either I bounce audio using it or I only use them for sound design. The worst is trying to go back to an old session with all the waves plugs being broken. ah well.


----------



## zzz00m (Jul 21, 2022)

husker said:


> That is just not true at all. You can have multiple versions of Waves installed and working at any one time.
> 
> This is just misinformation.


I can confirm having several Waves versions installed and working. You get a year of WUP included with any new Waves plugin purchase, that expires after 12 months.

Once expired, no new updates are available for that plugin, but it continues to work just fine. No forced updates that I can see.

Bottom line: The above is true, but I am still not a fan of Waves' business practices, or their Waveshell hell...


----------



## zzz00m (Jul 21, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Well, if you want to go down that road....when is the last time Apple charged for a Logic upgrade? Other than the major leap to Logic X, it was 2013. Waves updates are pathetic, they want me to WUP for archaic plugins that I bought 20 years ago.....with zero updates. Just sayin'......


Apple's numbers:

"CUPERTINO, CALIFORNIA October 28, 2021 Apple today announced financial results for its fiscal 2021 fourth quarter ended September 25, 2021. The Company posted a September quarter revenue record of $83.4 billion".

Jan 3 (Reuters) - Apple Inc (AAPL.O) on Monday became the first company to hit a $3 trillion stock market value

I imagine that Apple can afford to skip charging for a Logic upgrade.

Comparison to Waves? Probably not all that relevant...


----------



## Thundercat (Jul 21, 2022)

I've had nothing but good experiences with them. I hear the frustrations and I don't discount them, but another user such as myself may not have any of those issues.

And I don't think they are "scummy" or "shitty" or "shady" - all these companies have a payroll. They don't survive if you buy their software once and then expect to get free updates for life. That's just not how it works.

I only update my WUP every 2-3 years, and even then it's optional.

Could someone be in a situation where their computer went down and they couldn't install the plugins they bought due to the old version not working?

Maybe their tech support would help. I'd rather not think the worst of a company that I've had great experiences with.

And no I'm not a "fanboy" or a "shill" - I have quite a few of their plugs but only use a small handful, mostly the Reanaissance line and their PuigChild compressor...


----------



## walkaschaos (Jul 21, 2022)

I think it's literally cheaper to just buy another license of the same plugin (which comes with a year of WUP I believe) if you want it updated than paying WUP. EDIT: maybe not it's about $20 / plugin for WUP but depending on the deal / bundle it might be less to buy it again.


----------



## PeterN (Jul 22, 2022)

Daniel James said:


> ah well.


Im starting to think maybe I shouldn't be so be much conspiracy minded about Waves and just keep updating the WUP nicely. After all, they want my best. There is probably scientifically proof WUP should be done, and its probably best for me. I might even get 2 WUPs to show Im nicely subordinated and not be so butthurt™. Joining the team Rob!


----------



## Daniel James (Jul 22, 2022)

PeterN said:


> Im starting to think maybe I shouldn't be so be much conspiracy minded about Waves and just keep updating the WUP nicely. After all, they want my best. There is probably scientifically proof WUP should be done, and its probably best for me. I might even get 2 WUPs to show Im nicely subordinated and not be so butthurt™. Joining the team Rob!


I feel like 'WUP it up' could be a thing 😂


----------



## GeorgeThatMusicGuy (Jul 22, 2022)

This thread is exactly what I expected it to be and I'm loving it.
The worst waves paid upgrade that comes to mind is the one where they added the ability for you to scale the UI. I think it was v12? Except, when you scaled a plugin up, it was just like getting a small image and blowing it up to the size of a billboard. Just pure blurriness and unusability.


----------



## GeorgeThatMusicGuy (Jul 22, 2022)

Also you know what else I hate about waves? The adverts they place in Waves Central! They're massive and take up most of the space!


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 22, 2022)

zzz00m said:


> I imagine that Apple can afford to skip charging for a Logic upgrade.


Waves is the only developer in this industry that has these plug-in “upgrade” charges, not even the little guys.


----------



## Jdiggity1 (Jul 22, 2022)

As a Windows user, I've mostly been able to read this thread through a smug "Ha, glad that's not me" lens.
... Until today.
Now that I need to set up my Mac Mini to be able to open a bunch of projects that use Waves plugins for an off-site gig, I've been WUP'd in the ass.
I can mostly understand paying to upgrade from V9 to V14 or whatever... But what gets me, is that a plugin I bought from Waves in *2019*, does not work on a Mac OS from *2020*.
_That's_ the detail I can't get behind, and ultimately what has made me officially start my process of phasing them out of my projects altogether.


----------



## robgb (Jul 22, 2022)

Pier said:


> Anyway, let me get back on topic. Yeah fuck Waves!


Actually, I think the proper topic is Waves' constant sales are HILARIOUS!


----------



## zzz00m (Jul 22, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Waves is the only developer in this industry that has these plug-in “upgrade” charges, not even the little guys.


Waves is not the only developer that stops updating the old version after a new one is released.


----------



## robgb (Jul 22, 2022)

I think Robobaby in this thread explains the Waves policy quite well (first comment after the OP):









How do you feel about Waves charging upgrade fee? - Gearspace.com


Just realized that Waves charge annual subscription fee for upgrading their plugins. Don't know how you feel but I am surely angry. I purchased quite a



gearspace.com





Partial quote: "Professionals see it more from the perspective of a maintenance contract except you don't even have to pay a regular upkeep. You pay the fee whenever you want. Waves is real good at keeping their old plugins up to date so SSL E-Channel is 64 bit VST3. That plugin has got to be 10+ years old at this stage. If you defer upgrading for ages, the price is capped so the longer you don't need to upgrade, the better the deal is when you finally decide to do it because of all the accumulated features and new bundled plugins."


----------



## Technostica (Jul 22, 2022)

Jdiggity1 said:


> But what gets me, is that a plugin I bought from Waves in *2019*, does not work on a Mac OS from *2020*.


That's hardly a surprise given how many changes Apple has been through in recent years. 
I am sure there is a lot of software that had a point release upgrade in that sort of time scale, which left the previous version incompatible with an Apple OS upgrade that came the next year.

The issue here for me is that many of these Waves upgrades were upgrades in name and version number only. 
So when they actually needed to update them, even if only in a small way to maintain Apple compatibility, many people had a version number that was too old to get the update, even though in practice it was the same software with superficial if any differences.


----------



## paulmatthew (Jul 22, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Waves is the only developer in this industry that has these plug-in “upgrade” charges, not even the little guys.


Mcdsp charges even more now. They want a minimum of $29 "per plugin" to upgrade from 6 to 7. I'm glad I never jumped on that train.


----------



## Pier (Jul 22, 2022)

paulmatthew said:


> Mcdsp charges even more now. They want a minimum of $29 "per plugin" to upgrade from 6 to 7. I'm glad I never jumped on that train.


I'm guessing these old companies like Waves and McDsp probably live mostly from hostage users that don't want to lose old Protools projects.


----------



## GregSilver (Jul 22, 2022)

Pier said:


> hostage users


The true soul of subscription models


----------



## paulmatthew (Jul 22, 2022)

Pier said:


> I'm guessing these old companies like Waves and McDsp probably live mostly from hostage users that don't want to lose old Protools projects.


The same people who are still using Cubase 8 as their second DAW because it works fine


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 22, 2022)

paulmatthew said:


> Mcdsp charges even more now. They want a minimum of $29 "per plugin" to upgrade from 6 to 7. I'm glad I never jumped on that train.


Yikes! I stand corrected.


----------



## synthetic (Jul 23, 2022)

I’m sympathetic to the fact that it takes constant effort to jump through the hoops from Apple, Microsoft, Steinberg, iLok, Clap, whatever. But either build that cost into the initial purchase price, or offer some new upgrade. Version 7 includes Native M1 support and all these great new features. But some Waves plug-ins haven’t changed since what, the late 90s? Identical to the CDROM you bought from Goodmans Music, except Waveshell.


----------



## MegaPixel (Jul 30, 2022)

Vonk said:


> One knob to rule them all...and in the darkness bind them. (Extr from Lord of the Knobs)



I just couldn't help myself...


----------



## MegaPixel (Jul 31, 2022)

*Another Oneknobb to RULE THEM ALL!?* However This time it's EPIC!


----------



## c3r1c3 (Jul 31, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Well, if you want to go down that road....when is the last time Apple charged for a Logic upgrade? Other than the major leap to Logic X, it was 2013. Waves updates are pathetic, they want me to WUP for archaic plugins that I bought 20 years ago.....with zero updates. Just sayin'......


Not a good analogy. Apple uses all of their hardware and and taking 30%+ off-the-top-of-software+media+all-transactions/sales-in-their-stores to subsidize Logic development, whereas for Waves, plug-ins are pretty much the only thing they do.

A more apt analogy would be to ask that Apple give away ALL their hardware ("Every time a new iPhone comes out I should get it for FREE!") and not make a penny off of their stores, which is what you're asking of Waves. If ether company were to do that how long would they be in business?


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 31, 2022)

c3r1c3 said:


> Not a good analogy.


Apple provides free updates for Logic, with actual updates, regardless of how big Apple is….most smaller developers offer the same. FabFilter, for example, has never charged. Waves forces me to pay AGAIN for 20 year-old plugins…with practically no updates (if any). Anyways, if you’re completely happy with Waves and their WUP, go nuts. I still have a few Waves plugins I love, but won’t be buying anything else.


----------

