# Loudness Insanity



## tsk (Jan 15, 2021)

I was listening to a few tracks on a well known royalty free music site, and my god, what is happening here. The loudness wars have gone even more insane. I mean, a couple of the top tracks I listened to in the rock category were so loud it hurt my ears even on low volume. They felt well mixed and weren't clipping, and seemed well mastered, other than they were just completely over the top in volume.

Has anyone else noticed volume going up even more these last few years? Or is it just me?


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## SergeD (Jan 15, 2021)

An endless loop, louder the music becomes, deafer people become, and deafer people become, louder the music has to be.


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## merty (Jan 15, 2021)

tsk said:


> I was listening to a few tracks on a well known royalty free music site, and my god, what is happening here. The loudness wars have gone even more insane. I mean, a couple of the top tracks I listened to in the rock category were so loud it hurt my ears even on low volume. They felt well mixed and weren't clipping, and seemed well mastered, other than they were just completely over the top in volume.
> 
> Has anyone else noticed volume going up even more these last few years? Or is it just me?


So the website doesn't compensate output like streaming services?

But yes although stream service compensation there are still many who wants their masters loud. It's hard to find a direct answer for this but my thought is young listeners prefer its "energetical" sustain.


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## dgburns (Jan 15, 2021)

And tv delivers at -24 lufs, lol. But I guess you’re damned if you don’t.


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## Kent (Jan 15, 2021)

what? I can't hear you.


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## tsk (Jan 15, 2021)

SergeD said:


> An endless loop, louder the music becomes, deafer people become, and deafer people become, louder the music has to be.


Scary though.. no cure for tinnitus yet.


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## tsk (Jan 15, 2021)

dgburns said:


> And tv delivers at -24 lufs, lol. But I guess you’re damned if you don’t.


Yea, it's one of those things. Gotta be loud enough for the client to like your track before it gets to TV


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## tsk (Jan 15, 2021)

merty said:


> So the website doesn't compensate output like streaming services?
> 
> But yes although stream service compensation there are still many who wants their masters loud. It's hard to find a direct answer for this but my thought is young listeners prefer its "energetical" sustain.


I don't think it does, as there is significant variation in volume across tracks there. So Spotify makes tracks have the same volume output, roughly?

This site is selling licenses for music though, so a different thing.


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## Maxime Luft (Jan 15, 2021)

If you're talking about something which isn't even this loud I'd be disappointed!


_*it's like really loud, maybe consider turning down the volume of your speakers first_


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## merty (Jan 15, 2021)

tsk said:


> I don't think it does, as there is significant variation in volume across tracks there. So Spotify makes tracks have the same volume output, roughly?
> 
> This site is selling licenses for music though, so a different thing.



Yes, this also includes youtube and it's pretty accurate actually.

this youtube song is only 1.3 correction, you can compare it to @Maxime Luft's example which distorts like crazy (and unmusical);



But if you get download format then yes the output will vary like the CD days.


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## merty (Jan 15, 2021)

Maxime Luft said:


> If you're talking about something which isn't even this loud I'd be disappointed!
> 
> 
> _*it's like really loud, maybe consider turning down the volume of your speakers first_



16db correction that pretty insane but the distortion is over the top too


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## Tremendouz (Jan 15, 2021)

Just a note that Youtube only normalizes down, not up, so quiet stuff will stay quiet. I'm not sure about Spotify though.


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## Maxime Luft (Jan 15, 2021)

Tremendouz said:


> Just a note that Youtube only normalizes down, not up, so quiet stuff will stay quiet. I'm not sure about Spotify though.


John Cage 4'33 at - 14 LUFS gotta be some serious noise if so


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## Polkasound (Jan 15, 2021)

The loudness war ended years ago, but not before millions of songs were heavily damaged by the ravages of digital multi-band compression. The problem now is that even though the war is ended, a whole lot of musicians ignored the cease fire and are still fighting the war.

They're able to keep gunning for louder volumes because dynamics in commercially-released music have become largely inconsequential. Most music consumers today grew up during the loudness wars and have grown accustomed to having their music pumped into their ears at full-volume, in all its dynamically-deficient glory. That's why some producers today are releasing tracks online with waveforms that look nothing like waves, but more closely resemble solid bars.

Back in the '90s, we mastered by limiting only the highest peaks. Then loudness wars began. Today, some producers are mastering by limiting everything except for the lowest valleys. How times have changed.


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## jcrosby (Jan 15, 2021)

A fun article on the history of loudness. (The resistance to which goes way back to at least the 20s, if not further.)






The Real Reason Music's Gotten So Loud


iTunes' SoundCheck won't end the so-called "loudness wars." It'll just give listeners a way to counter some musicians' undying instinct to "turn it up to 11."




www.theatlantic.com


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## GtrString (Jan 16, 2021)

1 reason. Money.
People want to get heard in stadiums, and get more ticket sales.

The pandemic could end the loudness wars more than anything else.


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## Henu (Jan 16, 2021)

Polkasound said:


> Back in the '90s, we mastered by limiting only the highest peaks.


I still do it! Thus far, I haven't heard a single complaint about the volume ever, so I guess most artists (at least in the metal scene) want less of that loudness war too. 

I think that the mastering engineers have a great responsibility also to provide the less-loud option to the client first, because most of the time the artist has no idea about the loudness after certain threshold. If we provide a -6 LUFS master, they most likely accept it, but if we provide a -9 LUFS master they will most likely accept that as well as long as it sounds good. 
But the mastering engineers know which one of those actually _sounds better_. With great power comes great responsibility!


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## Uiroo (Jan 16, 2021)

Actually I love loud mastering, if its appropriate for the genre. 
Noisia have a song that is very loud, but I think it sounds really well. 
I always listen to everything at the exact same volume, so I became quite aware of the loudness differences over time, doesn't bother me.

Looking at the Noisia track in Cubase tells me it's somewhere around -6 to -8 LUFS most of the time. 







Also, I thought about this quite often, and as far as I know, hearing loss through music is primarily caused through high peaks, and not perceived loudness. 
I was wondering if loud mastering isn't actually good for your ear, because you have to dial it back when listening, and the actual peaks you get aren't as extreme. 

In theory, listeners will listen to music at their preferred perceived loudness, and if the music they listen to is mixed louder they will get less of the potentially damaging peaks. Just a thought.


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## Dietz (Jan 16, 2021)

Uiroo said:


> Actually I love loud mastering, if its appropriate for the genre.


This ^^^^^^^^!


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## Dietz (Jan 16, 2021)

Polkasound said:


> damaged by the ravages of digital multi-band compression.


Multi-band compression is a versatile and powerful tool if used properly (... which doesn't necessarily mean "sparingly"). I for one wouldn't want to mix without it.


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## MartinH. (Jan 16, 2021)

Uiroo said:


> I was wondering if loud mastering isn't actually good for your ear, because you have to dial it back when listening, and the actual peaks you get aren't as extreme.
> 
> In theory, listeners will listen to music at their preferred perceived loudness, and if the music they listen to is mixed louder they will get less of the potentially damaging peaks. Just a thought.



I mostly listen to non-dynamic music like metal, edm and game soundtracks and I never understood the complaint about these being "too loud". I listen to those at a low volume where dynamic music (like for example classical recordings) is almost inaudible in their quiet parts. So I'd have to turn the volume up for music with wide dynamic range, and when one of the loud parts hits, it hurts my ears and I have to turn it down again. I'm either riding the volume fader nonstop, or all the quiet parts are way too quiet for me. I think the complaints about metal etc. being too loud mainly come from people who have their levels set for dynamic music, and then don't turn it down for loud music.


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## Macrawn (Jan 16, 2021)

This guy doesn't think the loudness war is over and explains why. The short of what he says is, if done correctly the louder mix even if turned down sounds better because it is denser. Only if it's done cleanly though. I don't have the skills to do it, and my music is probably too dynamic to ever get it massively loud. 

Loudness war


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## ReleaseCandidate (Jan 16, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> I mostly listen to non-dynamic music like metal, edm and game soundtracks and I never understood the complaint about these being "too loud".


This! 
Seriously, the problém with Metallica's Death Magnetic isn't the loudness (well, if you can hear it, it's too loud! 😈).


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## Bluemount Score (Jan 16, 2021)

kmaster said:


> what? I can't hear you.


PERHAPS HE SHOULD HAVE WRITTEN IN CAPS LOCK


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## Tim_Wells (Jan 16, 2021)

Competition on royalty free sites is fierce. I imagine producers are doing everything they can to stand out and be heard. 

The loud ones are going to stick out (for better or worse) to a potential buyer clicking through a bunch of tracks.


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## Chris Wagner (Jan 16, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> I listen to those at a low volume where dynamic music (like for example classical recordings) is almost inaudible in their quiet parts. So I'd have to turn the volume up for music with wide dynamic range, and when one of the loud parts hits, it hurts my ears and I have to turn it down again. I'm either riding the volume fader nonstop, or all the quiet parts are way too quiet for me.


This!


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## dgburns (Jan 16, 2021)

We have been given the solution to the loudness wars. It’s been hiding in plain sight all this time.

We have a volume control.


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## Maxime Luft (Jan 16, 2021)

dgburns said:


> We have been given the solution to the loudness wars. It’s been hiding in plain sight all this time.
> 
> We have a volume control.


Wtf I just turned the volume of my speakers down and it works! Loudness war is over, thanks mate!


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## Polkasound (Jan 16, 2021)

Dietz said:


> Multi-band compression is a versatile and powerful tool if used properly (... which doesn't necessarily mean "sparingly"). I for one wouldn't want to mix without it.


I absolutely agree. In retrospect I should clarified by saying "... damaged by the ravages of haphazardly-applied multi-band compression". Today, bedroom producers are treating maximizer plugins like a cure-all tonic for bad production; they just crank it up 'til the waveform looks like a solid bar and upload their track.




Tim_Wells said:


> Competition on royalty free sites is fierce. I imagine producers are doing everything they can to stand out and be heard.
> 
> The loud ones are going to stick out (for better or worse) to a potential buyer clicking through a bunch of tracks.


You nailed it on the head. When CD changers came out, the race to be louder than the next artist's track took hold, fostering the misconception that loud = good. With consumers now being able to quickly compare music tracks with a single click of a mouse, nobody wants to produce quiet tracks, so they're willing to throw their own music under a bus just to make it as loud as possible.




Henu said:


> I still do it! Thus far, I haven't heard a single complaint about the volume ever, so I guess most artists (at least in the metal scene) want less of that loudness war too.


Me too. My tracks breathe more that way, and being someone who grew up in the 1980s when music still breathed, I desire that for my tracks. Take polka music for example. Some polka styles have a lot of punch, and that punch must be allowed to sparkle and drive. My studio as well as other top polka studios around the country didn't jump on the loudness war bandwagon like other studios did. Some of our releases are almost disturbingly quiet in comparison to the balls-to-the-wall commercially released music of the time, but damn, our albums sound great when cranked.

Today when I mix and master for digital distribution, my tracks will end up being among the quieter tracks in any playlist, and I am perfectly happy with that. I take pride in my music retaining all the sonic character I want it to have. If anyone out there gets the impression my music is lacking in quality because it's not as loud as the next musician in their playlist, that's their problem, not mine.


[I should add a side note that, probably because I grew up listening to music before the loudness wars kicked into high gear, very noticeable use of compression hurts my ears. When the pumping side-chain compression sound infested pop music in the 2000s, it made my ears bleed. I would change radio stations to get away from any song that had it. It took my ears a full decade to grow accustomed to the sound.]


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## FireGS (Jun 23, 2021)

Necrothread...

What's the deal with (some) trailer music these days?






-8LUFS Int, 1.0(+) true peak.

How is this good?


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## kontaktestablished (Jun 24, 2021)

FireGS said:


> Necrothread...
> 
> What's the deal with (some) trailer music these days?
> 
> ...


what song is this?


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## vitocorleone123 (Jun 24, 2021)

As a Star Wars fan (OG), the closest I can get to being a Jedi is to make the waveform of my song look like a lightsaber….


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## Consona (Jun 24, 2021)

A must watch


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## Kent (Jun 24, 2021)

Consona said:


> A must watch



hah! I shared this literally just earlier today. it *is* a must-watch!


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## from_theashes (Jun 27, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> I mostly listen to non-dynamic music like metal, edm and game soundtracks and I never understood the complaint about these being "too loud". I listen to those at a low volume where dynamic music (like for example classical recordings) is almost inaudible in their quiet parts. So I'd have to turn the volume up for music with wide dynamic range, and when one of the loud parts hits, it hurts my ears and I have to turn it down again. I'm either riding the volume fader nonstop, or all the quiet parts are way too quiet for me. I think the complaints about metal etc. being too loud mainly come from people who have their levels set for dynamic music, and then don't turn it down for loud music.


THIS! And I even more HATE high dynamics on action movies! I have to turn up dialogue-scenes and when the action hits: BOOM!!! Everybody deaf yet? So I‘m riding the volume knob the whole time.
But that’s why I love modern metal productions. They are punchy, compressed and in your face


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