# The inevitable day job



## Nathan Allen Pinard (Apr 26, 2010)

I'm attempting to get a day job, not to give up on music/composition but to simply be self sufficient and gain the confidence back that I had.

One question I had was for people that had to do this: Did you have trouble keeping the effort on composition while having a full 40/hr week day job? I'm a bit worried I may lose focus. Maybe at the start anyway.


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## Studio E (Apr 26, 2010)

Well, there is no doubt in my mind that those who can afford to make this their primary focus have a huge advantage over those of us who require a different primary source of income. How can I work 40 hours a week and possibly keep up with someone putting in an extra 40 hours per week of practice and excersise in orchestration, sound design, theory, etc etc.

THat said, I do still try. The most realistic limitation to me aside from the mere time factor is that, after working all day long on furnaces and air-conditioners, and then eating supper, showering my filthy self off and all that, I am rarely inspired to do much more that day. My brain is usually fried at that point. Not that I CANT do more, I just have a hard time MAKING myself do more. But there is great satisfaction in completing a hard day's work and knowing that I accomplished something (not the least of which is a paycheck). It's all part of the balance. FInd happiness regardless of what your main job is.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Apr 26, 2010)

One thing I'm noticing is "doing what you love" for a paycheck is that..unless you make enough, you don't love it. There were days where I was starting out and composition wasn't money to me, but just overall fun and accomplishment. I'd like to get some of that back not by doing stuff for free, but just not having it be the ONLY means of income.

I've never gotten close to a minimum wages job with composing, and I'm sure that's simply because I'm not in LA. So at least a job will allow me to upgrade a few things, and eventually save up for whatever music industry I want to get into, which is most likely in LA.


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## JohnG (Apr 26, 2010)

Hi Nathan,

It is very hard to make a comfortable living full time as a composer; few manage it. While naturally a bit discouraging to have a day job when one considers the hours and energy spent, hopefully one's work in one area will allow a transition back to composing, or the ability to write periodically. If you are in a city that has a student or other semi-professional film culture, plenty of those people still need music for short films.

Unless one knows of a way to make a packet of money quickly, one could do worse than to pursue a career that keeps one close to music or sound or story. Some successful composers started by working in something that is related, such as television commercial advertising, or worked in post-production sound as mixers or sound designers. I'm sure you can think of, or others can supply, stories of now-famous composers whose careers kept them close to the industry -- John Powell, Michael Giacchino are two who come to mind.

Raising children, conducting tours, even working in an office -- just about anything that one does can be marshaled into a skill or experience that informs one's scoring to picture. Besides, one of the least-likely place to meet a lot of directors is in one's studio.


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## gsilbers (Apr 26, 2010)

Ditto.

I work in audio post and with audio vault services so I get to Watch movies all day. And wath the music and effects too. 
Whih helps inspire me.

I also take the early shift 7-4 so I have the rest of the day for music. 

As mentioned above, don't have as much time to practice , try new things out and thus I have to work hard to make rhe fastest template so I can sit and write. I just turn and load bidules with large templates and only mod them if it needs to.
But it helps out not to search for sounds or I struments. The concept is general I know but it really helps for this.


I also drink 5 hour energy 
and in between breaks I check this forum to learn about setups tricks sample libs etc


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## jlb (Apr 26, 2010)

Nathan, I think your music is really good. Of course this business is incredibly competitive, but there are also so many people out there looking for music. Believe in yourself and the quality of the work you are producing.

If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right.
Henry Ford 

jlb


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Apr 26, 2010)

Thanks all.

There is a small student/indie film market in Portland, but it's very small. 

I do have the ability to create endless pop tracks and send them to a contact in LA to see if I can place them, but pop isn't necessarily my favorite thing to do. It's something I've been meaning to push after all this other stuff I promised long ago (family album projects)

I think I'll be fine if I keep working every weekend during the day. Living comfortably will bring the overall want to get back into it. Not to mention with an income I can upgrade to all the stuff I want. My computer power is lacking right now which is yet...another discouragment when composòº#   Ï!›º#   Ï!œº#   Ï!º#   Ï!žº#   Ï!Ÿº#   Ï! º#   Ï!¡º#   Ï!¢º#   Ï!£º#   Ï!¤º#   Ï!¥º#   Ï!¦º#   Ï!§º#   Ï!¨º#   Ï!©º#   Ï!ªº#   Ï!«º#   Ï!¬º#   Ï!­º#   Ï!®º#   Ï!¯º#   Ï!°º#   Ï!±º#   Ï!²º#   Ï!³º#   Ï!´º#   Ï!µº#   Ï!¶º#   Ï!·º#   Ï!¸º#   Ï!¹º#   Ï!ºº#   Ï!»º#   Ï!¼º#   Ï!½º#   Ï!¾º#   Ï!¿º#   Ï!Àº#   Ï!Áº#   Ï!Âº#   Ï!Ãº#   Ï!Äº#   Ï!Åº#   Ï!Æº#   Ï!Çº#   Ï!Èº#   Ï!Éº#   Ï!Êº#   Ï!Ëº#   Ï!Ìº#   Ï!Íº#   Ï!Îº#   Ï!Ïº#   Ï!Ðº#   Ï!Ñº#   Ï!Òº#   Ï!Óº#   Ï!Ôº#   Ï!Õº#   Ï!Öº#   Ï!×º#   Ï!Øº#   Ï!Ùº#   Ï!Úº#   Ï!Ûº#   Ï!Üº#   Ï!


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Apr 30, 2010)

Well, I did in fact land that job at hostbaby.com. So we'll see how this effects my overall workflow with music. I have a feeling it won't be that much at the start.


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## nikolas (Apr 30, 2010)

I don't have a 9-5 day job. Never did and I doubt I would be able to do it (Ok, I would but I would suffocate).

But, apart from composing I also:
teach
play the piano
am a father (a very active one :D)
and until recently I was doing my studies.

And as far as composition is concerned I composed for media and for concert hall music. 

I do have a fear that if I don't get some very good gigs soon I will be forced to take a more active form of teaching (right now it's a few private tuitions, with a good pay, because of my reputation) in a school or something where things are rather ugly (despite the fact that I love teaching).


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## JJP (Apr 30, 2010)

If you can find some other musical job, that's really the ideal way to go. I end up doing a variety of things to pay the bills and find it very satisfying.

When I first got out of college I was gigging as a jazz musician and teaching lessons. I was also a substitute teacher for the local school district and worked construction part time.

Since moving to Los Angeles, I've worked as a music copyist, music proofreader, transcriber, music programmer, contractor (booking musicians for recording sessions), score supervisor, conductor, arranger, and orchestrator. Occasionally people hire me to record tracks with one of the rare instruments I own. I've even taken jobs photocopying and taping parts for recording sessions.

Often one of these jobs will lead to another. Proofreading led to arranging for me. Orchestrating led to me programming string tracks for a project that had its budget cut.

Some people have no idea that I'm a trained jazz musician. Others have no idea that I get hired to orchestrate in a classical style. I never had to be a composer to be happy. I just want to be a musician.


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## R. Soul (May 1, 2010)

Congrats on the new job Nathan. 

Interesting thread.

I've unfortunately pretty much always had a 9-17 job (10-18 actually) so once you get home, have dinner and spent just a little time with family it's 9 pm, so it's obviously limited how many hours of composing I can get a day.
It's quite soul destroying actually, I've had just about as much as I can take of it. :-/

I've always wanted to composing full time, as it's really the only thing I'm any good at, but making a living from it seems very distant unfortunately. And I'm certainly no live musician - I'd struggle to play anything half decent live so making any money doing that is not really an option.

Does anyone here actually teach "making music on computers"? I've thought that maybe there's some money to be made from teaching people Cubase/plugins/writing music etc, but it seems like most people prefer the trial and error way. If you want to play piano or violin you get a teacher, but if you want to make music using computers, you learn by yourself?
I mean, in a private tuition way, not being a teacher at SAE etc.

A bit odd really that's it's not more common, as it's a lot more complicated and many more things are involved. Or maybe it is, and it has somehow slipped off my radar.


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## billval3 (May 3, 2010)

This is a great topic, guys. Lately, I've been shying away from the idea of trying to compose full time because it seems like it's difficult enough to make it, let alone make it while holding down a day job. It's encouraging to read other peoples' struggles and mindsets.

I'm a public school music teacher, by the way. I can't say that I enjoy it tremendously, but the good thing is that the schedule is much more relaxed than other jobs. I did not have a music ed. degree, but was able to get a teaching certificate through the "alternate route" system.


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## Desire Inspires (Oct 28, 2017)

R. Soul said:


> Does anyone here actually teach "making music on computers"? I've thought that maybe there's some money to be made from teaching people Cubase/plugins/writing music etc, but it seems like most people prefer the trial and error way. If you want to play piano or violin you get a teacher, but if you want to make music using computers, you learn by yourself?



Yes, I am thinking about doing exactly that. Kids are familiar with computers, so it only makes sense to teach them basics to start making songs today.


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## gregh (Oct 28, 2017)

oops


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## Jeremy Spencer (Oct 30, 2017)

I've had a full time non-musical job since 1994 and still compose music regularly as a second career/income....along with drumming professionally every weekend, sailing, and a bunch of other stuff. If you love it, you will find the time for it. I still have that "pipe dream" of composing as my primary career, but if it never pans out I have the satisfaction of knowing I comfortably raised a family and still fuelled my musical passion...if you don't feed that flame, it fizzles out and you slowly (and miserably) die inside. Everyone I know who gave up on their musical dreams (or whatever it may be) has succumb to a humdrum, boring life and aged faster than they should have. Very sad.


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## Desire Inspires (Oct 30, 2017)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Everyone I know who gave up on their musical dreams (or whatever it may be) has succumb to a humdrum, boring life and aged faster than they should have. Very sad.



Really? What do you think made them age faster? Does giving up a dream make people more dull and bitter?


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## Jeremy Spencer (Oct 30, 2017)

Desire Inspires said:


> Really? What do you think made them age faster? Does giving up a dream make people more dull and bitter?



I don't know, but that's what happened to the people I know. I guess if you no longer have something to work towards, you are simply settling for life as it is....and eventually start resenting those around you who are successful. And ultimately, regret NOT pursuing their passion(s).


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## Daniel Petras (Oct 30, 2017)

I've been really focused towards having a career in game audio and there tends to be more opportunities compared to composer jobs. I used to only want to compose, but now I'm in love with the amount of different things you can do in game audio. Right now I try to keep all expenses as low as possible and make the minimum amount of money needed in order to sustain myself. I teach music which is not a full time job for me, so it works really well and allows me to put a lot of time into the direction I want to head. I haven't invested much time into my social life recently, but I suppose that's the price you pay for making your dreams a reality.


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## Rodney Money (Oct 30, 2017)

Job number 1: I have a weird job where I teach students how to play instruments, teach them how to compose, write music for the students, and write music for special lectures and seminars. My personal composing times for myself are from 8:55-9:45, 10:50-11:20, and 3:00-4:00. Those times are sacred and everyone knows not to disturb me during those times, even my bosses apologize if they need me during those times. This job pays the bills and insurance for the family.

Job number 2: private music teacher to 12 students (4 on Monday, 2 on Tuesday, 3 on Wednesday, 2 on Thursday, and 1 on Fridays) teaching from composition to instruments. This job also gets me commissions from local churches and communities to write music for. This job pays for my daughter's preschool, gas, and going out to eat. This job can be very challenging especially when a client says, "I want to perform for a Christmas service and it needs to be for 3 trumpets, piano, guitar, bass, and drums. Can you write it right quick?" Me, "Hand me the sheet music, and let's get to work."

Job number 3: private composer for clients. I write mostly for the concert stage, churches, and other live performances. Monday is my big day where I accomplish this task. This is the one day when my wife picks up the 4 year-old at preschool which gives me a 3 hour slot to fully compose music from 5:30 to 8:30 in between 4 lessons. During the rest of the week, I can compose after I put the "baby" to bed after 8 until the wife forces me to go to bed. This job pays for vacations.

Job number 4: Performer. Mostly on the weekends on Sundays at churches in the morning. I think I am booked until 2019. This will help pay for samples, tools, and toys? Yeah right. Lol. It goes to paying down college loans, mortgage, and random bills like a Hello Kitty Bedroom set for a princess.

Possible future job number 5 in the future: open up my own publishing company for other composers.


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## John Busby (Oct 30, 2017)

Job number 1: make wife happy!
Job number 2: work to earn money to help make wife happy!
Job number 3: raise children to make wife happy!
Job number 4: *CENSORED* to make wife happy!
Job number 5: attempt to compose music in a cold dark room at the far end of the house late into the night with only headphones....
to make the wife happy!


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## Jeremy Spencer (Oct 30, 2017)

johnbusbymusic said:


> Job number 1: make wife happy!
> Job number 2: work to earn money to help make wife happy!
> Job number 3: raise children to make wife happy!
> Job number 4: *CENSORED* to make wife happy!
> ...



And if that makes YOU happy, then life is good!


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## mc_deli (Oct 30, 2017)

For the last two years I have been wildly oscillating between these two:

1/
More day job = less music
More money in = less money out 

2/
Less day job = more music
Less money in = more money out

And it's not working. The day job is not musical. Even if it's only 20-25 hours a week on the surface it's still all the quality daytime hours.
It's not working because of this less/more part. The only way to get good at this - and make a living - is to do it ALL THE TIME! At least that seems pretty obvious to me.
I nearly choked when I read the post on here somewhere about a guy looking for tips on how to write emotionally for the feature film he's scoring. You can't write emotionally and you have a feature!!!! WTF. There must be 5000 people on here right now that spend all their time composing who would kill for that gig!

Anyway, 1/ is soul crushing because there's like no music being made. 2/ is soul crushing because there's like no money (though SA take Mastercard )


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## dannymc (Oct 31, 2017)

johnbusbymusic said:


> Job number 1: make wife happy!
> Job number 2: work to earn money to help make wife happy!
> Job number 3: raise children to make wife happy!
> Job number 4: *CENSORED* to make wife happy!
> ...



hehe very good. moral of the story, if you want to be a composer, don't get married. 

Danny


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## jonathanparham (Oct 31, 2017)

dannymc said:


> hehe very good. moral of the story, if you want to be a composer, don't get married.
> 
> Danny


or another philosophy: 'Happy Wife; Happy Life'


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## MatFluor (Oct 31, 2017)

Same here.

My Fiancée supports my career choice as composer - in her words "as long as I can generate income and do what I love doing, I fully support it". That also means - I need income to justify that. I view it the same, if I can generate income, I'm fine.

I am just starting out, getting jobs is hard. I have a dayjob and plans:
- Current dayjob: Scientific Researcher in the field of Computational Linguistics

- Future Composer-Supporting jobs:
1) I just started getting into Sampling, hoping to create some income over time with special and niche libraries. Maybe later going into the "mainstream" of instruments that are already sampled.
2) I am a longtime guitar player (16+ years), so when I have some room, I will start to give guitar lessons
3) Freelance programmer - I'm a proficient programmer and I love it as a hobby, so there could be some small jobs for remote work
4) recording engineer - after having built a professional studio for another band and recorded a few albums, some of which were played up and down on (swiss) radio, if Incan get a nice room, I can offer the studio for renting and be the sound engineer
5) If all goes well, I have a mandate for psychological care in the Swiss military - which means "on-call" evaluations etc, which are of course fully paid (I studied Psychology before I studied Computational Linguistics and general linguistics. Why not Music/Film composing? Story for another day)
6) Remote IT-Support
7) Unlikely judging from I saw: Composer assistant. With my musical background, as well as my training in IT and related fields (Project management yadda yadda), I can be a valuable asset to another composer, a guy who knows DAWs, can make cues, is an Organisator and can keep the whole infrastructure afloat. But Assistant jobs are rare and moving is currently not an option for various reasons

These are some options I laid out. I want to make all the money to live from composing, but I need backup plans. I am grateful to soon have a supporting wife who believes in me and my career choice, with all that comes with it. From the unstable income, Low income up to all-nighters. As said, as long as there is income, it's good (I think the same btw). It doesn't have to be stable, but without income, it's basically sitting at home doing "nothing". And we both don't want that.

Is a dayjob inevitable? Maybe. But you choose your degree of jobbing. I work 80%, since I generated some income, I an confident to go down to 60% sometime next year. And in the future even more - so that I have savings to live off as well as a gradual shift from dayjob to composing, without taking too much risks.


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## wst3 (Nov 1, 2017)

yet another perspective...

I've yet to find a way to make music my sole source of income, and at 58 I suspect I probably won't. When I was in my early 20s that was a source of frustration. These days it really isn't. I don't know how I reached this point, and maybe it means I've given up somehow, or maybe it means I've found balance.

This is complicated by the fact that I've always been equally drawn to the science/technology and the art of music production. Even if I was able to make a living as a player and/or composer (heck, can't even choose between those two<G>) I'm not sure I'd want to give up the tech side of things. I enjoy both, and probably about equally.

Now I can tell you that chasing the dollar is not the answer! I spent about 5 years working as an IT/Security consultant. It was a remarkable experience, but I had almost no time for music, I was on the road a lot. On the plus side I worked with some of the smartest people on earth and learned a LOT about business - so while it wasn't terribly fulfilling, it had value.

I also spent about five years leading a development team in the information security space. Even less time for music, and I hated it, at least in part because it had nothing to do with music and audio.

The rest of my career has been spent working, in one capacity or another, with audio, product development, systems engineering, service/support, etc. And during those times I have always had side jobs that were more directly tied to audio engineering - broadcast engineering, live sound, recording studio maintenance and design, product development, and support, and oh yeah, music production, including composition and arranging.

Ideally, or at least at one time I thought ideally, it would be fun to do all the side jobs with no full time job. But I lack certain skills necessary to go out on my own (trust me, I tried it, it was not pretty). That led me to the conclusion perhaps trying to be a full time composer might also be a poor idea. The skills necessary to run a consulting service (which is how I'd tie everything together) are probably quite similar to the skills necessary to be a composer - sales, marketing, networking (not Ethernet based<G>)

On the plus side, and yes, there is a plus side, I get to make music, and I get to pick and choose (mostly) the projects I work on. I bring in enough income to feed the habit, and I've become wise enough to keep the habit modest, or at least within the bounds of the income I can recognize. I enjoy my day job a lot, and I thoroughly enjoy the other side projects, even the ones that don't directly result in music making.

I don't know if any of that makes sense. And I don't know if different choices at different crossroads would have made for a better result (I'm not even certain what a "better result" would look like!)

So I stay happy doing what I'm doing, and I try not to provide career advice.


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## adg21 (Nov 3, 2017)

The only advice I have is to NOT get any new sample libraries / instruments / update software (especially DAW updates) / buying anything new for your studio / trying to learn new stuff. If I have only limited time available that is the worst time spent ever. Put your system in lock-down.

Also do not spend hours on forums, particularly this one, as it makes you lust after new stuff. Time spent on VI Control and looking at the latest sample libraries does not qualify as making music. It will probably confuse you if you have only have a limited number of hours to make make music


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## Jeremy Spencer (Nov 3, 2017)

adg21 said:


> The only advice I have is to NOT get any new sample libraries / instruments / update software (especially DAW updates) / buying anything new for your studio / trying to learn new stuff. If I have only limited time available that is the worst time spent ever. Put your system in lock-down.
> 
> Also do not spend hours on forums, particularly this one, as it makes you lust after new stuff. Time spent on VI Control and looking at the latest sample libraries does not qualify as making music. It will probably confuse you if you have only have a limited number of hours to make make music



Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but that is ill advice. IMHO, the best thing a composer can do during the downtime is to continue writing, and getting deep inside your DAW and libraries so that you know every "nut and bolt" when the time comes that you'll need to utilize their potential. I am constantly learning, writing, and building my arsenal of sonic tools.


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## AdamKmusic (Nov 3, 2017)

I work a day job and have managed to score 2 feature length films / couple of shorts and a video game this year so far. Its tough but you make the time for it, even if it's just a few hours an evening!


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## adg21 (Nov 3, 2017)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but that is ill advice. IMHO, the best thing a composer can do during the downtime is to continue writing, and getting deep inside your DAW and libraries so that you know every "nut and bolt" when the time comes that you'll need to utilize their potential. I am constantly learning, writing, and building my arsenal of sonic tools.



My post was cautionary one for anyone working 40, 50, 60+ hours a week in a different job. There are only so many hours in the day. I didn't say anything about not continuing to write and getting to know every nut and bolt you have in your downtime - quite the opposite - so think maybe you misunderstood my point.


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## adg21 (Nov 3, 2017)

Basically some people might say "down-time", what's that?


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## Jeremy Spencer (Nov 3, 2017)

Sorry, maybe I misunderstood your post, I took it as don't by new libraries, don't try and learn anything new, etc. By downtime, I meant time that you aren't actually writing for a project.

Like @AdamKmusic , I work a day job (40 hours per week) and also find the time to compose (or at least spend time in my studio) on a regular basis. I get home at 4:00pm, and there are still at least another eight hours once I get home (plus weekends). The choice is easy...either you make the time, or you don't. I am always writing for something, whether it be a TV show, trailer, live theater production, commercial, library track, etc. The work is there, you just need to commit to the time and make it happen.

I love the cynical composers, because it leaves more opportunities for the rest of us.


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## Desire Inspires (Nov 3, 2017)

Wolfie2112 said:


> The choice is easy...either you make the time, or you don't.



Actually it ain’t that easy for me.

I could spend more time with my DAW, but after a long day at work, I have to spend some quality time with an IPA or a nice Lager. 

Music will be made by robots soon anyway, so I’d better not let the beer go to waste!


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## s_bettinzana (Nov 3, 2017)

johnbusbymusic said:


> Job number 1: make wife happy!
> Job number 2: work to earn money to help make wife happy!
> Job number 3: raise children to make wife happy!
> Job number 4: *CENSORED* to make wife happy!
> ...



This could be really stressing for you.
Since I am unemploied, if you want, I could take care of Job number 4 for you. Just to give you a bit of rest


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## Gordon_hiphoplp (Nov 3, 2017)

s_bettinzana said:


> This could be really stressing for you.
> Since I am unemploied, if you want, I could take care of Job number 4 for you. Just to give you a bit of rest


Lol lol and lol, that was epic...


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## Desire Inspires (Nov 4, 2017)

s_bettinzana said:


> This could be really stressing for you.
> Since I am unemploied, if you want, I could take care of Job number 4 for you. Just to give you a bit of rest



That is so inappropriate!


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