# Scoring video games...



## tzilla (Nov 6, 2015)

So scoring video games...if you want to start gathering intel about the process but don't wanna be seen as a noob, what's a composer to do?...I'm been in the TV and trailer universe, but have never travelled to video game land.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Nov 6, 2015)

I would start by asking on a specialist forum, one that's only visited by your colleagues.


----------



## Markus S (Nov 7, 2015)

Here is my advice : be candid about it. Don't try to come across as the big experienced game composer that you are not. Makes the lives of everyone easier.


----------



## Pasticcio (Nov 7, 2015)

Of course it doesn't compare to experience but I found this book amazing:


----------



## Daniel James (Nov 7, 2015)

In practical terms its not much different than the type of work you have already been doing although with slightly different technical implementation aspects to consider. You job first and foremost is to write amazing music as always, if you get that covered it will make teh journey much smoother.

With regards to implementation you should start looking into software like Wwise and FMOD which are middleware sound engines that game developers use to implement adaptive music into their project. 

There are a few different ways game music is used in a game...sometimes you just write long form pieces of music like you would for a film either to cutscene or it will just be played once ingame. 

Sometimes you will need to create music that loops seamlessly but also contains an intro and outro. So that would go intro > Main music (on loop) > Outro. You may occasionally have to create 'stingers' which are little bursts of music which blend into the track as if they are part of the music but are used to signify something important ingame.

Sometimes you will have a layered approach where you write a loop which acts a base layer that constantly plays, then over time (or with a significant game event) other layers are brought in that blend with and build on top of the layers below it. Sometimes you may have multiple layers that mean different things so its like building different vibes on top of one foundation vibe.

There are also a few other ways out there but I as far havnt had to work with them, I remember hearing a way where you write short few bar sections of music (like 10 different ones) then they are played in different orders depending on the ingame action.

So yeah getting into writing for games shouldnt be much more of a journey than you are already on. Just look into how the middleware software works and you will be set to handle 99% of the work you are aiming to get into.

-DJ


----------



## DHousden (Nov 7, 2015)

Daniel James said:


> In practical terms its not much different than the type of work you have already been doing although with slightly different technical implementation aspects to consider. You job first and foremost is to write amazing music as always, if you get that covered it will make teh journey much smoother.
> 
> With regards to implementation you should start looking into software like Wwise and FMOD which are middleware sound engines that game developers use to implement adaptive music into their project.
> 
> ...


This.

But to be honest, unless you're working in house somewhere, the implementation will be handled by the developer or programmers. It's good to have a basic grasp of what Wwise et al are capable of, so you know what your options are musically, but I wouldn't spend _too_ much time actually learning the programs yourself, as 9 times out of 10 this task will be handled by somebody else. 

In terms of composition techniques, the main difference is that you'll be creating an interactive score rather than writing to linear media. You'll also often be required to create underscore, as players could spend a huge amount of time in one section, so ear fatigue is a constant consideration; which is why we utilise many of the techniques Dan mentioned to help keep things interesting for the player. Other than that, music's music and you should approach it in the same way as you would writing for any format.


----------



## resound (Nov 7, 2015)

If you are serious about getting into game music, you should check out GameSoundCon. It just happened last week in LA so it won't come around for another year, but they have some great seminars for beginners and pros given by professionals working in the field. I don't know if you are in the LA area, but it is definitely worth looking in to.


----------



## Kralc (Nov 7, 2015)

Daniel James said:


> write short few bar sections of music (like 10 different ones) then they are played in different orders depending on the ingame action.



This is a great example of that,


----------



## benatural (Nov 7, 2015)

Actually if you knew how to implement your own music, and really understood how game states can drive the music, you will make yourself a more valuable composer for games.

Yes the developer in most cases will implement for you... But if you can do it yourself? Trust me whem I say many game composers don't have that ability, and it would be to your benefit if you did.


----------



## Cat (Nov 7, 2015)

How can one get this Wwise? Is it freeware, can it be purchased/licensed or is it only available from game developers?


----------



## resound (Nov 7, 2015)

Cat said:


> How can one get this Wwise? Is it freeware, can it be purchased/licensed or is it only available from game developers?



It's free, and they even have a certification course with free lessons. 

https://www.audiokinetic.com/products/wwise/


----------



## kunst91 (Nov 10, 2015)

Daniel James said:


> In practical terms its not much different than the type of work you have already been doing although with slightly different technical implementation aspects to consider. You job first and foremost is to write amazing music as always, if you get that covered it will make teh journey much smoother.
> 
> With regards to implementation you should start looking into software like Wwise and FMOD which are middleware sound engines that game developers use to implement adaptive music into their project.
> 
> ...



As a freelance composer how often would you actually have to use the middleware?


----------



## Timberland70 (Nov 10, 2015)

@kunst91: on bigger productions more and more often. In addition, knowing these tools can be a key to understand what is different about games music compared to e.g. film or tv and how this effects composing for this media.

Best,
Helge


----------



## Daniel James (Nov 11, 2015)

kunst91 said:


> As a freelance composer how often would you actually have to use the middleware?



Depends on the project. If its a game where you have to also do wwise implementation, if you don't know how then that gig will go to someone else. If the company is implementing but you dont know how that system is set up to work, there is a chance they will go with someone else. While is not a necessity per-say, it is the best way to know exactly how interactive music works, which can only help you chances in going for gigs. 

-DJ


----------



## jneebz (Nov 11, 2015)

Daniel James said:


> In practical terms its not much different than the type of work you have already been doing although with slightly different technical implementation aspects to consider. You job first and foremost is to write amazing music as always, if you get that covered it will make teh journey much smoother.
> 
> With regards to implementation you should start looking into software like Wwise and FMOD which are middleware sound engines that game developers use to implement adaptive music into their project.
> 
> ...



Daniel, thank you for your willingness to share from your experience...not just in this case but in so many areas of composer work. Very helpful for noobs like me!

-Jamie


----------



## kunst91 (Nov 11, 2015)

Daniel James said:


> Depends on the project. If its a game where you have to also do wwise implementation, if you don't know how then that gig will go to someone else. If the company is implementing but you dont know how that system is set up to work, there is a chance they will go with someone else. While is not a necessity per-say, it is the best way to know exactly how interactive music works, which can only help you chances in going for gigs.
> 
> -DJ



Good to know, thanks!


----------



## DHousden (Nov 11, 2015)

Considering the fact that Audio Programmer is a job role in itself at any large studio, I'd argue that it's even less necessary to be proficient in middleware tools for the bigger productions, rather it would put you in far greater stead for smaller, independent projects. 

Everything that everyone's said is true, it would be beneficial to know these tools and it would be an extra string to have to your bow when pitching against the weight of competition, however, the job will _always_ go to the best musician. Not the best implementer. Having a strong knowledge of Wwise will be completely incidental if someone else has managed to better capture the essence of the game in their music. 

Yes you do _need _to have an understanding of what it's possible to achieve with middleware, so you know what your options are whilst writing the music, however I insist that you do not need to go the trouble of becoming proficient with the software yourself. If you want to, that's fine and it certainly won't hurt your chances, but this is a subject that people will study entire degrees and post-graduate courses on. Just in the same way you'd pay someone else to mix and master your work on any project of note, so it is someone who is a trained coder will implement your work. 

In my experience developers always want to hire a musician. A musician with an understanding of the medium and the technical possibilities within, sure. A musician who also happens to be a coder themselves, great, but unnecessary. 

Entirely up to you where you where you invest your time. Just know that an understanding of middleware is essential, a thorough knowledge of it is not. As Chuck Doud said at Game Music Connect this year "You don’t need to understand all the tech, you just need to know what should happen with the integration."


----------



## Daniel James (Nov 11, 2015)

DHousden said:


> Considering the fact that Audio Programmer is a job role in itself at any large studio, I'd argue that it's even less necessary to be proficient in middleware tools for the bigger productions, rather it would put you in far greater stead for smaller, independent projects.
> 
> Everything that everyone's said is true, it would be beneficial to know these tools and it would be an extra string to have to your bow when pitching against the weight of competition, however, the job will _always_ go to the best musician. Not the best implementer. Having a strong knowledge of Wwise will be completely incidental if someone else has managed to better capture the essence of the game in their music.
> 
> ...



Yup agreed, you most likely wont be asked to implement on the majority of projects, like I say though, if you can then you have something more to offer. 

My main point is knowing exactly what will be expected of you. ie if you are asked for an intro outro loop and some stingers you need to know what the person receiving your files will have to do with your audio....should they have fx tails, should there be a seamless loop, how will the stingers be played in context of the loop, do you need transitional builds, do you need more than one loop etc etc.

Like David and Chuck said, you just have to know how it works to get it right. Again knowing more wont hurt you, and it really wont take you more than a few sessions of messing around with one to get decent results and a firm understanding.

-DJ


----------



## Jurek (Nov 11, 2015)

I´ll throw in the Unity engine as well ... which is used in many many low budget or indie productions. Doesn´t hurt to have a basic understanding of how audio implementation works there.
https://unity3d.com/


----------



## benatural (Nov 11, 2015)

To be honest, the role of an audio programmer isn't to implement or script music. Some do that, particularly on small projects, but it isn't common on larger teams. They're more likely to provide you with hooks to game states to hang the music on, maybe write a music manager to automate playback logic/behavior, but they're not going to implement the music. Traditionally that's the role of a sound designer or technical sound designer, neither of which are programmers. In the most basic sense of the job, those folks take the music, chop it up, prepare it in the game engine or middleware, and in some cases painstakingly script out each moment of a game, accounting for as many edge cases as they can. Depending on the kind of game we're talking about, this can be an fairly involved task. Most sound designers for games have much more than they can handle on their plate at any given time, especially toward the end of a project (which is typically when music starts to come online). It isn't like film where the sound role is broken up across many sub disciplines. Game sound designers are generally expected to do it all.

My point is, any talented composer who has a working understanding of game audio design and is able to handle the implementation side of their own work, is an asset to the over booked game sound designer. If you want to get into games, learn to be a game developer, understand how games work and how they're made. If you're a great composer who knows how to implement, you increase your chances getting work because you have an expanded skill set. I mean no disrespect to other posters who have shared their opinions in this thread. There's lots of great advice here! But I think you owe it to yourself and the game industry to understand the tech and the middleware. We'll all be better off if you do.


----------



## vicontrolu (Nov 12, 2015)

Totally agree. Learn your middleware and tech and you´ll be able to provide a better sound experience. You can be very talented in melodic phrases and counterpoint and make really great music overall but still fail to create the correct landscape inside the game becasue you dont understand all the possible options in the design.


----------



## DHousden (Nov 12, 2015)

benatural said:


> To be honest, the role of an audio programmer isn't to implement or script music. Some do that, particularly on small projects, but it isn't common on larger teams. They're more likely to provide you with hooks to game states to hang the music on, maybe write a music manager to automate playback logic/behavior, but they're not going to implement the music. Traditionally that's the role of a sound designer or technical sound designer, neither of which are programmers. In the most basic sense of the job, those folks take the music, chop it up, prepare it in the game engine or middleware, and in some cases painstakingly script out each moment of a game, accounting for as many edge cases as they can. Depending on the kind of game we're talking about, this can be an fairly involved task. Most sound designers for games have much more than they can handle on their plate at any given time, especially toward the end of a project (which is typically when music starts to come online). It isn't like film where the sound role is broken up across many sub disciplines. Game sound designers are generally expected to do it all.
> 
> My point is, any talented composer who has a working understanding of game audio design and is able to handle the implementation side of their own work, is an asset to the over booked game sound designer. If you want to get into games, learn to be a game developer, understand how games work and how they're made. If you're a great composer who knows how to implement, you increase your chances getting work because you have an expanded skill set. I mean no disrespect to other posters who have shared their opinions in this thread. There's lots of great advice here! But I think you owe it to yourself and the game industry to understand the tech and the middleware. We'll all be better off if you do.


Totally fair, I respect everything you're saying and don't disagree. At the end of the day we can only talk about our own experiences, and in my experience (around 11 titles) and the experience of well established peers such as Jessica Curry and Austin Wintory, we are musicians who happen to work in games. This hasn't held us back by any stretch of the imagination and my point was that if I and notable others have been able to craft careers for ourselves without getting really hands on in this area, then so can anyone else. 

Everything you said is correct and I haven't questioned the fact that knowing the tools yourself would be an asset; purely that it's not a dealbreaker and hasn't ever been something I've even been asked to do, during my time in the industry. I'm just starting work on my first AAA title and again it's not something that I'm going to be handling. The director of music at SCEA has said as much as well. That said, I'm equally aware that you have the other end of the spectrum with people like Winifred Philips, Jason Graves and Olivier Deriviere, who live breathe and sleep implementation and use it as part of the creative process. Does it make their scores significantly better or worse than those who've decided on the implementation approach in advance, written the music and passed it off to the powers that be to implement? Awards nominations over the past few years would suggest not, it's simply a different way of approaching things. In my mind if you understand what's there to be achieved with middleware and can write your cues with the interactivity in mind, you'll be just fine. If you want to take it a step further and become proficient with using it yourself then that will also help you out in many instances. Either way there's no getting away from the fact that an understanding is necessary, it's simply up to you how far you choose to pursue it.


----------



## vicontrolu (Nov 12, 2015)

DHousedn, the thing is when you know the game, and know whats happening under the hood, and you have control over the engine you can expand the inmersive power of the experience by not restricting to "what you´ve been asked" but just explore all the possibilities the tech is giving you.

Can an awesome composer make a great soundtrack for a game without knowing the tool? Sure. Would it be a better soundtrack FOR THE GAME if he knew all the possibilities the tech brings to the table? Most likely.


----------



## JohnG (Nov 12, 2015)

Write great music.


----------



## DHousden (Nov 12, 2015)

vicontrolu said:


> DHousedn, the thing is when you know the game, and know whats happening under the hood, and you have control over the engine you can expand the inmersive power of the experience by not restricting to "what you´ve been asked" but just explore all the possibilities the tech is giving you.
> 
> Can an awesome composer make a great soundtrack for a game without knowing the tool? Sure. Would it be a better soundtrack FOR THE GAME if he knew all the possibilities the tech brings to the table? Most likely.


I agree you need to have a basic knowledge of the tool and the possibilities within, and I do take your point. I just don't think that proficiency with a middleware tool makes you a more able composer, or more adept at creating an emotionally resonant experience. Which is what developers are looking for, in my experience. But it's precisely that; my experience. By no means gospel, I just understand how daunting that side of things can seem to someone from a predominantly musical background, and wanted to reassure the poster that it's not an essential requirement to craft a comfortable living for yourself. What will ultimately get you the job is your music.

At least that used to be the case.. It does seem as though the majority of folk feel differently on here, so if the landscape has changed that much over the past 5 years and it is an absolute pre-requisite in order to get your foot in the door these days, you'll have to forgive me. If that is the case I'm certainly glad I got in when I did!


----------



## benatural (Nov 12, 2015)

Yes, there are many exceptionally talented composers out there writing music for games who have varying degrees of game dev knowledge, and it's true there is some truly incredible great being written out there.

Been a musician for many years, got my bachelor's degree in composition from a very traditional school. I've been working in house as a sound designer at mid to large size developers for 8 years and have shipped about as many games, having contributed to nearly all of them from early pre-production to gold master. I've been the Audio Director at a semi largish developer (we just hit 200 people) for the past 2 and a half years, currently managing audio development on 4 titles. I've been writing music for film and TV off and on for 9 years, often while I was crunching at work making games. Just wrote 150 minutes of music for a recently released game, we recorded 60 of it with orchestra, and am about to start my next project doing the same. I've seen, and been deeply involved with, every side of game audio development there is.

From my perspective we need more composers who understand game audio design in practical and technical terms. I was at a GDC talk a couple years back about the audio for an Xbox One launch title (amazing sounding game), and the composer was stressing the importance of being able to implement your own music into Wwise. I kid you not, I started clapping and quickly stopped when I realized I was the only one.

Making games is the hardest and most rewarding thing I've ever done, and I'm fairly convinced this is the right way to go.


----------



## Ian Dorsch (Nov 12, 2015)

DHousden said:


> Everything that everyone's said is true, it would be beneficial to know these tools and it would be an extra string to have to your bow when pitching against the weight of competition, however, the job will _always_ go to the best musician.



I absolutely agree with the essence of what you're saying here, but my experience has been that the job does not always go to the best musician. Sometimes it goes to the lowest bidder. Sometimes it goes to the guy with the longer resume. Sometimes it goes to the guy who is the producer's brother-in-law. Sometimes it goes to the guy whose personality gels best with the team. Sometimes it goes to the guy who does the best job of copying the temp music in the teaser trailer. Sometimes it goes to the guy whose recognizable name will make the most exciting bullet point for the PR department. I'm not even sure that I'd be comfortable saying that the job goes to best musician _most_ of the time.

I once pitched for a AAA game where I was told later that I was one of the team's musical favorites, but I had been eliminated because they did not feel that I had enough experience working on implementation with a AAA audio team. So it's not exactly the same thing, but there's some anecdotal evidence that implementation (plus good music) can sometimes get you the gig.


----------



## Peter Costa (Nov 12, 2015)

Seeing how the mobile game industry is blowing up, learning how to use Wwise/FMOD or some middleware will secure any deal on getting a gig for a game. Unless you're trying to shoot for working only on AAA titles where you are just the composer, I would think having these set of tools will be invaluable. I'm working on a AAA title currently where I strictly compose. However if I didn't know all of tools that middleware offers my composition process would be much different. I'm able to tell our audio engineer where I want what music where and how it should function within the game. 

I attended GSC last year and most of the speakers echoed this same message: there aren't too many more positions available where you just upload your music and then go on to the next piece.


----------



## dfhagai (Nov 12, 2015)

Just wanted to mention ELIAS Software composer as another great alternative (new) middle-ware.
It bridges the gap between the composer and the programmers much more easily and intuitively.


----------



## tzilla (Nov 24, 2015)

Wow, such great info, great to see the discussion! Apparently I failed to make sure I had email notification setup for this thread. This is really good stuff.


----------



## tzilla (Nov 24, 2015)

Daniel James said:


> In practical terms its not much different than the type of work you have already been doing although with slightly different technical implementation aspects to consider. You job first and foremost is to write amazing music as always, if you get that covered it will make teh journey much smoother.
> 
> With regards to implementation you should start looking into software like Wwise and FMOD which are middleware sound engines that game developers use to implement adaptive music into their project.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Daniel. Great info.


----------



## tzilla (Dec 4, 2015)

Markus S said:


> Here is my advice : be candid about it. Don't try to come across as the big experienced game composer that you are not. Makes the lives of everyone easier.


this is why I hesitate to ask questions


----------

