# Has anyone experienced the supernatural?



## cygnusdei (May 9, 2021)

Like the title says, I'm curious to hear your personal, first-person experience. As for me, I can't say that I have, although I want to keep an open mind. If spirits etc. exist, they must operate on a wavelength/plane removed from mine, that I lack the ability to sense them.


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## Land of Missing Parts (May 9, 2021)

The ghost of Goldsmith appears sometimes to tell me my writing stinks.


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## PeterN (May 9, 2021)

Supernatural - think of the term. 

Ask the Burmese, its all natural. Or in Africa. 

You are grown in Western society to think in a certain way, to perceive in a certain way and to communicate in a certain way. My experience is, you have to break out of your culture to start to find things that are "supernatural". Learn a language too that perceives the reality differently than English language. Its a long road to new insight, most will not have the time for it. Or let alone be open to it. The world is messed up anyway.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (May 10, 2021)

I'm supernatural.


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## Fidelity (May 10, 2021)

Having an "open mind" in the era of psychiatry is just foolish. You do you, but maybe don't suggest other people line themselves up for the loony bin?


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## FinGael (May 10, 2021)

Most of my life, since my very early childhood. To me it does not contradict with the scientific view of the world of today. In my personal experience it is more like that life to me is so much more than what science today is able to comprehend, but I think that someday it will catch up with these things and is able to research, validate and prove them to the scientific community.

As one can expect I also have encountered lots of degrading talk, attitude and anger regarding these things, which I practically don't mind, because one can use logical reasoning also with the immaterial planes (from a scientific point of view) of existence, and when you have decades of experience with those you have formed a pretty solid understanding of how many things work - although science today says that they are nonexistent.

(I have never done drugs (or even tested them) or been diagnosed with mental problems and I have in many occasions been open with how I have experienced things).


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## el-bo (May 10, 2021)

No, although I’m one of many on this forum who has experienced an inexplicable and seemingly uncontrollable opening of my wallet in the face of new plugin releases. A curious phenomenon indeed.


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## cygnusdei (May 10, 2021)

FinGael said:


> Most of my life, since my very early childhood. To me it does not contradict with the scientific view of the world of today. In my personal experience it is more like that life to me is so much more than what science today is able to comprehend, but I think that someday it will catch up with these things and is able to research, validate and prove them to the scientific community.
> 
> As one can expect I also have encountered lots of degrading talk, attitude and anger regarding these things, which I practically don't mind, because one can use logical reasoning also with the immaterial planes (from a scientific point of view) of existence, and when you have decades of experience with those you have formed a pretty solid understanding of how many things work - although science today says that they are nonexistent.
> 
> (I have never done drugs (or even tested them) or been diagnosed with mental problems annd I have in many occasions been open with how I have experienced things).


This reminds me of a 1997 film Photographing Fairies, that touches on psychotropic drug and "spiritual epiphany" connection, which is a real thing (as others mentioned), and fraud, which is equally real. But absent incentives like money or fame, then there is no reason for fraud. In other words, your words carry more weight than say someone selling a book or practicing seances.


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## Paul Grymaud (May 10, 2021)

The only experiences I've had are all either super or natural. Never supernatural.
But if you want, this is Madame Irma, specialist in the supernatural. Maybe she can help you.


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## FinGael (May 10, 2021)

Fidelity said:


> Having an "open mind" in the era of psychiatry is just foolish. You do you, but maybe don't suggest other people line themselves up for the loony bin?


I don't know if you are serious or not - both are fine, but a thought, or a mental picture, arose from that.

There is a house, which has several rooms. In one of the rooms there is a person, who has for some unknown reasons decided that there is no such thing as a door, and who has spent all of his/her life in that room.

How can one find his/her way out of the room? One could say that just opening the door and walking out, but what if thoughts alter his/her perceptions, which makes him/her not able to see the door? Do the other rooms of that house exist?

One could always say that it is nonsense that our choices alter our perceptions, but you can see it in everyday life; someone who is heavily occupied with his/her mind (or a cell phone) is able to observe or pick up a lot less phenomena of his/her surroundings, when compared to someone who has an ability to be able to be present (in the present moment) and/or in a so called flow state.

In my experience this works also on a bigger scale. From early childhood we have been conditioned to view things, act and think in certain ways and it has a great effect on how we see, hear, sense and experience the reality. In my personal experience a human being is a very sophisticated and highly sensitive instrument and a receiver and there are a lot of reasons why with the majority most of the system has been turned off or has never been properly tuned or switched on.


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## GNP (May 10, 2021)

I've played Ouija before, and the force that moves the plate is very real.


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## AudioLoco (May 10, 2021)

FinGael said:


> I don't know if you are serious or not - both are fine, but a thought, or a mental picture, arose from that.
> 
> There is a house, which has several rooms. In one of the rooms there is a person, who has for some unknown reasons decided that there is no such thing as a door, and who has spent all of his/her life in that room.
> 
> ...


erm... you mean Plato's Cave from 2500 years ago... or also the Matrix from the 1990s ...

Every single super natural explanation not involving a provable or un-provable invisible superior being has been debunked and thrown away to the dustbins of human history.


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## Gerbil (May 10, 2021)

I had an out-of-body experience when I was young. It wasn't at all alarming; I was just staring down at myself asleep in a hospital bed. I could see the nurse in the ward and the two other patients, although I'd not met them as one of the curtains was drawn. When I did get to see them they were the same. My conclusion is that I _must_ have already seen them at some point. But maybe not...

What I try to do is keep an open mind about such things. I have aspergers so the way I perceive things is a bit left-of-centre anyway. I miss things in the natural world that most see clearly. If there were ghosts and the like then it would merely be another mystery to add to the list!


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## FinGael (May 10, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> erm... you mean Plato's Cave from 2500 years ago... or also the Matrix from the 1990s ...
> 
> Every single super natural explanation not involving a provable or un-provable invisible superior being has been debunked and thrown away to the dustbins of human history.


There are a myriad of reasons why countless phenomena that are being labeled as supernatural are nearly impossible to reproduce in conditions that science has determined to use when trying to validate or debunk them. To dive into that dilemma is a bigger rabbit hole than most could imagine.

I am pretty sure that if I was given ten years exclusively with you, you would understand this dilemma quite profoundly through your own experiences. Unfortunately I don't think we have that possibility and I have to be content with the option where science determines and the majority is being used as the court to rule the verdict: I am a fool and that is wrong, delusional and illogical thinking, because it has not been scientifically proved and approved.

Fortunately there is no reason to worry. I have experienced these things every day and night for over the last fifteen years, I am ok with all this and your opinion or view about these things is fine and the right one for you.


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## cygnusdei (May 10, 2021)

FinGael said:


> I don't know if you are serious or not - both are fine, but a thought, or a mental picture, arose from that.
> 
> There is a house, which has several rooms. In one of the rooms there is a person, who has for some unknown reasons decided that there is no such thing as a door, and who has spent all of his/her life in that room.
> 
> ...


What you're saying makes sense, but by the pronounced rarity of supernaturally inclined individuals, maybe there is a simpler explanation. Consider color blindness - it's hereditary and pretty rare (8% for males, 0.5% for females). For color blind people, no matter how you try to describe that strawberries are red and celery is green, they will never comprehend it, as they lack the sense to do so. Maybe with spiritualism (?) it's similar but opposite - most people simply lack the "sixth sense", only a few do, and it's been said that it's hereditary.


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## FinGael (May 10, 2021)

cygnusdei said:


> What you're saying makes sense, but by the pronounced rarity of supernaturally inclined individuals, maybe there is a simpler explanation. Consider color blindness - it's hereditary and pretty rare (8% for males, 0.5% for females). For color blind people, no matter how you try to describe that strawberries are red and celery is green, they will never comprehend it, as they lack the sense to do so. Maybe with spiritualism (?) it's similar but opposite - most people simply lack the "sixth sense", only a few do, and it's been said that it's hereditary.


Thank you for your thoughts.

My personal experience is that it is partially a cultural thing and conditioning is the most important deciding factor when it comes to this. Genes play a part and in my experience the person's incarnation history has a role; in my experience I see us as ageless beings who incarnate here many times in these body suits to develop the soul, or what term you want to use in that context.

There is a part that dissolves in death and there is another part that stays and integrates with the timeless being, which evolves and develops through the experiences that come from living here in this physical, human form. In my journey I went through a phase where I suddenly remembered a lot of my past lives and events that were significant in larger context and how they were connected with different lives and the life that I am living now.

In average I think that humans carry quite a potential in themselves regarding these things. One has to unlearn what he/she has learned to get rid of the conditioning and start to develop a deeper relationship to self; who am I, what am I and learn to silence the constant, compulsive thinking, which is making it difficult for the consciousness to tune to anything outside the mind or the ego of that person.

During the years I have taught or guided a bunch of individuals privately (for free) and found out that there are lot of resources and potential in a normal human being. I'd like to emphasize that in that I have concentrated of gettind rid of the obstacles, not to make people think or experience life like me. A sovereign human being is well capable of forming his/her own thoughts and views about things.


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## Crowe (May 10, 2021)

I have not and I do not 'believe' in anything that is not scientifically observable. There are many, many things that have been proven to be real that I have little to no knowledge of and I do not need the billions upon billions of 'unprovable possibilities' diluting reality any further.

Give me proof and I'll adjust my world view accordingly, as I must. Such is the fate of one who subscribes to science.

If you open your mind too much, your brain will fall out.

EDIT: I say this having been raised catholic and having spent most of my teen years 'studying' demonology and myriad religions, as an edgy teen goth is supposed to. Even tried my hand at Wiccanism for a year of so. I truly believed for a while but eventually the lack of observable truth just killed it. That, and the cases of borderline insanity such beliefs wreaked on some of my acqaintances made me realize blind faith is dangerous as hell.


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## R. Soul (May 10, 2021)

It's funny in this day and age when everyone has there camera running 24/7, and 12.000 hours of videos are uploaded to YouTube daily, that the most convincing video's showing supernatural phenomenas are either fake or can be explained otherwise.

The human mind play tricks on us, and we are often convinced of a vision of sorts, but plenty of things can cause this, like sleep paralysis, pareidolia, electromagnetic fields, carbon monoxide poisoning etc.


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## Stringtree (May 10, 2021)

Psychedelics thirty years ago. What has been seen cannot be unseen. I took notes, and the most interesting one still to this day:

((((((((((((((((*))))))))))))))))

In words, "*" exists conditionally within a multitude of qualifying and mitigating circumstances, and the alteration of any component changes the nature and disposition of "*" as to make "*" not "*" but something else.

Don't do drugs, kids. Or do. I just wouldn't visit that on my mind again. Outside of those experiences, the world is unpredictable and weird, but I'm not holding out for any of the stuff I believed as a teenager.


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## KarlHeinz (May 10, 2021)

Shiirai said:


> I have not and I do not 'believe' in anything that is not scientifically observable. There are many, many things that have been proven to be real that I have little to no knowledge of and I do not need the billions upon billions of 'unprovable possibilities' diluting reality any further.
> 
> Give me proof and I'll adjust my world view accordingly, as I must. Such is the fate of one who subscribes to science.
> 
> ...


As my "sensibility" for such things is comparable to cygnusdei (just kind of non-existent) I have no proofe for anything "supernatural" (maybe not a good word for what I think is meant). But was the earth a discworld as science of that time said it is ?

I am no scientist but interested for example in what newest physical experiments in quantum physics continually find out. And even if this is very simplified summarized for me it seems to proof that the thousand years old chinese philosophy of Ying and Yang (and all whats behind this) seems to be more true then our 0/1, yes or no, black or white.

And for the experiences: if you (I have often) have seen what fajin could do in reality and for me there is simply NO physical explanation for it (the power that the body builds up when sneezing comes as close as I have found so far but even that dont moves hundreds of kilos of people with nearly NO "physical" energy or movement put into it) even if it USES and FOLLOWS all physical laws cleverly its hard to doubt that there are things/processes working since thousand of years and still not explained. And I dont talk about Bruce Lee in a video, I talk about kind of daily experiences in Tai Chi training. Sadly I have not come far enough to being able to use this but I have seen my master and at least two of his best students doing this regularly (even if one of him still is convinced that its physics only), not for show or showing how great they are but simply cause its part of self-defense.

So if this is "unexplained" reality, what else is there ? I am in general skeptical against things I have not experienced in the way like I did with fajin and my master tells us the same (for example he says that its bullshit when "masters" claim to move people threw the air without even touching them), but I am kind of open-minded for it (even if not sensible  ).


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## cygnusdei (May 10, 2021)

Shiirai said:


> I have not and I do not 'believe' in anything that is not scientifically observable. There are many, many things that have been proven to be real that I have little to no knowledge of and I do not need the billions upon billions of 'unprovable possibilities' diluting reality any further.
> 
> Give me proof and I'll adjust my world view accordingly, as I must. Such is the fate of one who subscribes to science.
> 
> ...


I can relate. I was raised a Christian myself, but as I got older, let's just say that my idea of 'God' evolved. I just think it's interesting because Catholicism seems to have a considerable tradition on the supernatural (demonic possession/exorcism, stigmata, Marian apparitions etc.), but I guess you don't buy any of that. FWIW Christianity runs the gamut from heavy emphasis on the supernatural (prophetic revelations, Holy Spirit manifestations etc.) to the sobering, defensive stand against any sensationalism. Somewhere in there may be the true supernatural among the frauds.


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## Technostica (May 10, 2021)

Science talks about the quantum reality yet most people who think of themselves as being scientifically minded seem to only really believe in a Newtonian world view. 
That for me speaks volumes about the extreme narrowness of the mainstream scientific mindset. 
From my perspective that is just as much a cultish outlook as is seen in many religions. 

It's probably generally best to leave the inexperienced alone and let them wake up in their own time.
I could share many things but unless you already have awakened that side of your awareness it will be too unbelievable for most to take seriously. 
I think most of us that are awakened to a degree don't care what you believe and I'd be wary of anyone trying too hard to convince you about their experiences. 

For me it all comes back to love.
That is why I give so much time to spiritual endeavours. 
I can take or leave the supernatural, but I have a deep longing to experience the joy, peace and sense of connection that love brings me.


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## storyteller (May 10, 2021)

Every now and then, conversations about spirituality bubble up on this forum. Inevitably, it is bombarded by deniers and those not open to the possibility. Anyone that brings up their spiritual experiences is immediately shut down by those that are firm in their own viewpoint. But you have to ask yourself, why? Why is it so important for others to make sure no one else attempts to open a door or learn about something? The truth is, it doesn't really matter what that "something" is... it is just wild to me that others want to make sure no one entertains the possibility of researching the unknown. After all, science wouldn't exist today if scientists didn't risk their reputation by going against the grain and chasing after particles invisible to the human eye... It should be the joy of every person to watch others learn, seek, grow - and hopefully surpass the limitations and knowledge of those observing and guiding them.

As I am typing this, I see that @Technostica has just replied similarly. I agree with everything that was just said. It truly is about Love. I think of it like this... if there is an agenda, then it is not Love. Love genuinely has no agenda, but Love. And if there is an obstruction to Love, an agenda has intervened... be it your own, or one imposed upon you. So as much as the many here that have had spiritual experiences - or at least found the peace to be Love as much as possible in the confines of the human body - would love to gush about their experiences ... it is probably best to just leave guideposts to help those that want to experience it on their own to find their way in the sea of chaos this world presents.

It is out there OP. Without a doubt. The experiences that many talk about are very much the cusp of the journey. But, ultimately, the path will be identified as a great journey to becoming the embodiment of Love. It sounds so simple, but when truly experienced, the journey will very much embody the "supernatural" moments that you are looking to hear more about.


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## Rich4747 (May 10, 2021)

To believe or not is a luxury imo


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## Crowe (May 10, 2021)

Well, that escalated quickly.


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## mikeh-375 (May 10, 2021)

.......BOO.......


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## FinGael (May 10, 2021)

Great posts @Technostica and @storyteller

That pretty much sums it up for my journey. When I was young I was curious about the usual "supernatural", shrouded in the cloak of mystery, but walking the path has made the journey to transform into a lifelong quest to be fully here, fully present, learning life and how to live and love.

Love, balance, connection, compassion, peace, joy, respect and harmony. Great things hidden and dressed in little, things that tend to get too often stomped on, things that wake the colours in everyday life and make you appreciate life and feel blessed and thankful to be here - and even appreciate the difficulties as opportunities to grow as a human being.

One thing that is sad about scientific mindset is that it often makes people arrogant. In my opinion there is enough separation and divide&conquer in this world. It usually is not a threat if someone has a different experience or thinks otherwise, and it rarely brings any more good to the table to act like a jerk to someone who you think knows less about some subject.


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## AudioLoco (May 10, 2021)

FinGael said:


> There are a myriad of reasons why countless phenomena that are being labeled as supernatural are nearly impossible to reproduce in conditions that science has determined to use when trying to validate or debunk them. To dive into that dilemma is a bigger rabbit hole than most could imagine.
> 
> I am pretty sure that if I was given ten years exclusively with you, you would understand this dilemma quite profoundly through your own experiences. Unfortunately I don't think we have that possibility and I have to be content with the option where science determines and the majority is being used as the court to rule the verdict: I am a fool and that is wrong, delusional and illogical thinking, because it has not been scientifically proved and approved.
> 
> Fortunately there is no reason to worry. I have experienced these things every day and night for over the last fifteen years, I am ok with all this and your opinion or view about these things is fine and the right one for you.


Hey I respect whatever opinion you have and you are entitled to believe in whatever you wish.
As long as you don't try to convince, or "convert" me, or impose your views on society in general, that is wonderful for you if it makes you feel whole and happy, I'm sincerely happy for you. 

Me, I stick to the boring, often not as exciting (actually physics is pretty exciting though), repeatable, verifiable, documentable and, with 100% respect, leave beleives to whoever enjoys it.

As long as my opinions get the same respect, it's all fantastic.


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## dzilizzi (May 10, 2021)

Never seen a ghost. That said, I have friends who say they have. Additionally, a friend used to have a store in an old building that was, at one time, a ranch bunkhouse, as well as a few other things. People said they saw ghosts or felt entities there. 

There were two occasions I also had weird things happen. Mostly, I was never bothered or saw or felt anything that others talked about. Twice, she allowed "ghost hunters" to come by after the store was closed and invited some of her friends to watch. The first time, nothing really happened. The second time, they were upstairs in the storage area that was supposedly haunted so I went up with two other girls to watch. As we were standing there, one of the girls complained it felt like something was grabbing her leg. The other girl says, oh yeah, there is something there. So I switched places with her. I don't feel anything. Suddenly I hear this "Hmmph" right behind me like someone was really frustrated. Turned around. No one there. No one else had spoken. Just weird.

Second time occurred during a seance they decided to have. We turned down the lights and had a candle. Went through the usual stuff they do in seances. I don't hear anything. Suddenly, one side of my body gets really cold. Ice cold. It was warm in the room. My other side was warm. I asked if anyone saw someone at my side and a couple said, oh yes, that's the cowboy who hangs out in the back room. I guess he was standing there watching. He backed off when the lights came back on and I was warm again. When we turned the lights back off, he returned and my side got cold again. It was kind of interesting. She closed the store a year or two after because it wasn't doing well. The place is still empty. 

I tend to think it is energy left behind from unfinished business normally. I mean, humans are basically blobs of energy. Normally, the people seen as "ghosts" don't die from natural causes. There could be something to this. 


I do find it interesting that most cultures have separately come up with supernatural type beings in their cultures - i.e. ghosts, vampires and werewolves. I'm sure there are some logical reasons for it. Maybe someday we will know.


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## CT (May 10, 2021)

> Has anyone experienced the supernatural?​


Yes I am a ghost.


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## FinGael (May 10, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> Hey I respect whatever opinion you have and you are entitled to believe in whatever you wish.
> As long as you don't try to convince, or "convert" me, or impose your views on society in general, that is wonderful for you if it makes you feel whole and happy, I'm sincerely happy for you.
> 
> Me, I stick to the boring, often not as exciting (actually physics is pretty exciting though), repeatable, verifiable, documentable and, with 100% respect, leave beleives to whoever enjoys it.
> ...


Thanks. No worries. I respect you and your views and I can think of gazillions of more productive ways to spend my time and energy than fight about these things with other people. (Even procrastinating on this forum ). That is why in my life I mostly keep my mouth shut about these things.

One thing that came to my mind is the thing that this topic is so often considered to be so heavily connected with believing and blind belief. What is funny about that is that I am not a believer type of a guy. I want to know. There are many ways to research and observe esoteric or supernatural phenomena, but those methods are not approved by science (I understand this and have no problem with it), and there are no man-made physical measuring instruments yet to measure and validate those phenomena or planes of existence yet.

There are observation-based methods in consciousness and I have managed to gather a lot of data with coherence and reproduce many of them countless times: in my experience mechanics of some phenomenon have always been the same. (I see this known reality and modern science as one piece of a cake and the other ones are dimensions and planes of existence that are not commonly known or understood yet.) Part of it is that in my experience everything is so connected that a proper and compatible vibrational ground for many phenomena to be manifested in controlled scientific environments is extremely, extremely hard, because they are usually phenomena that are very sensitive, and react to almost everything and it could take only an individual involved with the project with a closed and restricted mindset about something related to the test to make everything instantly or automatically fail.

So, the option I am left with is to be the heretic and enjoy life. Going to the greatest battle to fight the ultimate windmills by trying to prove these scientifically does not seem so tempting at the moment. And yeah, I know - if you cannot prove them they do not exist and you are a fool.


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## KarlHeinz (May 10, 2021)

> One thing that came to my mind is the thing that this topic is so often considered to be so heavily connected with believing and blind belief. What is funny about that is that I am not a believer type of a guy. I want to know.


That reminds me on a discussion long ago I only remember only in fragments. But it was on the differences between in that case western (church) religion and other (in that case "eastern") ways of thinking.

Starting point in that discussion was that in my youth on a youth travel organised by church (I am not in church and never was but I respect religion as long as it respects the believe of other people and that was a great experience and travel for me with lots of nice people) I had a deep discussion with the father who acoompanied this. Whenever he has no anwer on my questions anymore he just said "you have to believe". Finish. Thats it, no room for questions anymore, believe it or not.

Then years later I had a comparable discussion with a buddhist (I am not sure if it was my Tai Chi master but it dont really matter who it was and from which background he came). And he says: NO, DONT BELIEVE, TRY IT. If it works for you, if it is good for you, if you find answers with it, fine, if not: stay away from it.

Seems for me that "religion" is exchangeable with lot of things but the point is really what FinGael said and AudioLoco claims: respect other opinions and dont try to kill questions and searching by "YOU have to believe". Its fine for me if the father finds his fulfillment in believing but if it means "I dont know" is strictly forbidden.....


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## Rodney Money (May 10, 2021)

I have, 3 times, but to share publicly on a forum with the risk of ridicule, I don’t know whether to share or not.


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## cygnusdei (May 10, 2021)

KarlHeinz said:


> That reminds me on a discussion long ago I only remember only in fragments. But it was on the differences between in that case western (church) religion and other (in that case "eastern") ways of thinking.
> 
> Starting point in that discussion was that in my youth on a youth travel organised by church (I am not in church and never was but I respect religion as long as it respects the believe of other people and that was a great experience and travel for me with lots of nice people) I had a deep discussion with the father who acoompanied this. Whenever he has no anwer on my questions anymore he just said "you have to believe". Finish. Thats it, no room for questions anymore, believe it or not.
> 
> ...








Sorry, can't help it


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## timprebble (May 10, 2021)

I read an interesting comment on twitter about the coincidences of haunted houses, and carbon monoxide poisoning. Explained further in this article:





__





That feeling when you’re being haunted but it’s actually just carbon monoxide poisoning – The Stute







thestute.com





I am not saying this to discredit anyones experiences, but for example if you took LSD you maybe hope for visual hallucinations and if/when they occur then you know their source which would make you less likely to assign them to the supernatural.

By comparison if you were completely sober, went to bed and were woken by pressure on your chest, aural hallucinations and a strong sense of dread, you might well freak out because you do not know their source. But these are also all symptoms of carbon monoxide poisoning.


Vaguely related & maybe also useful:








How Do You Stage UFO Photos and Videos? Let us Count the Ways.


People keep sending me UFO videos, including old ones from years ago that were also figured out years ago. It struck me it might be useful to have a list of way in which UFO photos and videos can be staged without CGI. A rough broad overview: Tossed in the air - Something thrown, like a...




www.metabunk.org




​


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## ryans (May 10, 2021)

Rodney Money said:


> I have, 3 times, but to share publicly on a forum with the risk of ridicule, I don’t know whether to share or not.


Well, you can't tease us like that and then not tell us


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## cuttime (May 10, 2021)

Years ago, my wife and I visited Sedona, Arizona. If you haven’t been there, it is a drop-dead beautiful place. It is also a boiling hot cauldron of New Age spiritualism and questionable tourist traps. We visited a butte that had a reputation for “vortices”, places where earth-Gaia-universal energy spiraled out of the ground to provide enlightenment or spiritual powers. The vortex was marked on the ground with collections of small rocks arranged in a spiral pattern. When the vortex is active, little piles of rocks that are precariously stacked were supposed to fall over. While we were taking in the sights, my wife was approached by a man who said he was doing legal work for the Native American tribes in the area. My wife, being a lawyer and part Native American, got taken into a prolonged conversation about the area. When they departed, he offered the advice, “When you next find a dime, that will be a sign you have found your Spirit Guide.”

Within about an hour, we then visited the Sedona Community Cemetery, another incredibly beautiful and unusual place, just around the corner from the famous chapel in the rocks. The man on the butte had no way of knowing our destination. While we were taking photos, my wife was drawn to a child’s columbarium with a little statue of a ballet dancer over the ashes that said ”Dancing in Spirit”. Right next to it was a dime.

Do I think this was a supernatural experience? Not for a second, and I think the odds of something happening like this by chance are actually quite high. But I do think it’s a good story. I related this story to a Catholic priest sometime later, expecting some shock or horror, and condemnation about New Age and demons, but instead he was dumbfounded and didn’t have a clue as to how to react. I was amazed that he seemed so unsure of his own faith as to have no response.


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## mikeh-375 (May 11, 2021)

..anyone read this for some perspective?


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## ghostnote (May 12, 2021)

We all know ghosts, ufos and bigfoot only exist in the great U.S. and A. There have also been sightings of the big white Trump. I think it's all rubbish.


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## dzilizzi (May 12, 2021)

ghostnote said:


> We all know ghosts, ufos and bigfoot only exist in the great U.S. and A. There have also been sightings of the big white Trump. I think it's all rubbish.


Well, that's not true. It's only our ghosts are younger and more active. The ghosts in Europe have been around for a thousand years or so and are tired. Rattling chains is really hard work.


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## mikeh-375 (May 12, 2021)

Didn't some American ghosts come over to Europe to study in France with Messiaen, or am I getting confused?


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## patrick76 (May 12, 2021)

mikeh-375 said:


> ..anyone read this for some perspective?



Sagan was the best. I definitely miss him.


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## cygnusdei (May 12, 2021)

Well, in 2016 National Geographic did capture ghost on camera for the first time.


Spoiler



Ghost shark that is


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## nolotrippen (May 12, 2021)

cygnusdei said:


> Like the title says, I'm curious to hear your personal, first-person experience. As for me, I can't say that I have, although I want to keep an open mind. If spirits etc. exist, they must operate on a wavelength/plane removed from mine, that I lack the ability to sense them.


Often when we speak of the "supernatural" people's minds go to something dark or unexplainable. I prefer to call it "extranatural." We are created in God's image and we also create much in the same way.


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## ghostnote (May 12, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> Well, that's not true. It's only our ghosts are younger and more active. The ghosts in Europe have been around for a thousand years or so and are tired. Rattling chains is really hard work.


Well I guess the american dream is enough motivation for the ghosts in the U.S. to keep on spooking.



mikeh-375 said:


> Didn't some American ghosts come over to Europe to study in France with Messiaen, or am I getting confused?


Can't believe that. French was declared an extict language back then. Bigfoot didn't speak it either and we all know he's ancient as f**k. God bless him tough.


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## bill5 (May 12, 2021)

cygnusdei said:


> Sorry, can't help it


Utter Star Wars crap. Of course there is "try." Yoda, go back into the body of Grover where you belong.


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## bill5 (May 12, 2021)

ghostnote said:


> We all know ghosts, ufos and bigfoot only exist in the great U.S. and A.


???


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## bill5 (May 12, 2021)

GNP said:


> I've played Ouija before, and the force that moves the plate is very real.


I played it. Nothing happened. We tried and tried. I guess it was Satan's day off.

But I have experienced something which, although very tame, I can't explain by any rational known means. It hardly proves the existence of anything supernatural, and I'm inclined to still assume there's a logical explanation which I just didn't figure out, but.......

Background: I put down my dog, who I was very close to, a couple of years ago. He LOVED chewing on these rolled up rawhide sticks that I got him. When I was poking around on the PC at night, I'd give him one and he'd happily chew away. At his height he'd polish off 5 or 6 in a night (I should add he wasn't at all overweight in case that sounds like a lot). Anyway...about 6 mos after I put him down, I was walking up the stairs to the bedroom where the PC was...and there, on the floor near the entrance, was...a rawhide. 

Here was my thought process: OK so what, that just means I just didn't see it before. But that's impossible beyond any reasonable doubt. Again he'd been gone 6 mos or so, and I got rid of his rawhides way before that. Further, it wasn't like in a corner, or flush up against the wall so I somehow might have missed it. It was away from the wall, and when I go up the stairs, I'm looking down at the last steps as I get to the top and immediately to my left is the door to this bedroom, so I'm naturally looking in that direction as I go into this bedroom (which is every night). There is no freaking away I could have missed that for 6 days, let alone 6 months. None. Further still, I vacuumed many times in that last 6 months, and obviously I would have seen it/hit it at some point if it had been there awhile, so it couldn't have been there more than a day. So how did it get there? I live alone. Nobody was in or near that room between when I put him down and that day. Then I started imagining possibilities that I knew were ridiculous, like "maybe I sleepwalked and put it there." I've never done that in my life and again it's obviously a ridiculous reach, but even if I had, again I had gotten rid of his rawhides awhile back. Plus he never (never) took rawhides outside of that bedroom. I brought them in the room, gave it to him, and he laid down and chewed away right there.

Is this him saying hi from the great beyond? I'm hardly ready to make that jump. But it is weird and is at the least, as Arsenio Hall used to say, something that makes you go "hmmm...."




Shiirai said:


> I have not and I do not 'believe' in anything that is not scientifically observable.


So you don't believe in love? Shame. 

Science, by definition, cannot observe or prove/disprove anything supernatural, so trying to use science to do so would be like trying to measure a sound wave with a yardstick.

That all said generally speaking, I'm ambivalent about anything supernatural. Like you, I have a "yeah yeah, prove it" attitude on one hand...and yet realize it can't be, and so for me doesn't make sense to dismiss the possibility just because it hasn't been scientifically proven.


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## chocobitz825 (May 12, 2021)

supernatural? nope..never watched that show..


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## cygnusdei (May 12, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Sience, by definition, cannot observe or prove/disprove anything supernatural, so trying to use science to do so would be like trying to measure a sound wave with a yardstick.
> 
> That all said generally speaking, I'm ambivalent about anything supernatural. Like you, I have a "yeah yeah, prove it" attitude on one hand...and yet realize it can't be, and so for me doesn't make sense to dismiss the possibility just because it hasn't been scientifically proven.


Not supernatural, but take traditional Chinese medicine for example. It's only recently that science caught up with it when they found anti-inflammatory, anti-cancer bioactive alkaloid compounds in the herbs. Science had to go through the whole development of organic chemistry and oncology in the last century to begin to understand something that has been around for thousands of years.


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## Page Lyn Turner (May 12, 2021)

I've seen few ghost notes


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## bill5 (May 12, 2021)

cygnusdei said:


> Not supernatural, but take traditional Chinese medicine for example.


Traditional Chinese medicine also included acupuncture and ingesting mercury. I'd say that's a case-by-case basis.


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## Crowe (May 12, 2021)

bill5 said:


> So you don't believe in love? Shame.


From the moment I wrote that, I knew someone was going to throw this one in my face. Good thing we've long been able to observe the biochemical processes that are involved so, well, you're wrong. Love is very observable.

So indeed, I do not 'believe in love'. There is no need to *believe in it*.


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## GNP (May 13, 2021)

bill5 said:


> I played it. Nothing happened. We tried and tried. I guess it was Satan's day off.
> 
> But I have experienced something which, although very tame, I can't explain by any rational known means. It hardly proves the existence of anything supernatural, and I'm inclined to still assume there's a logical explanation which I just didn't figure out, but.......
> 
> ...


Yeah it depends on your luck. Sometimes it happens, sometimes not. The best is to play with a very religious person if you know one (and if they're even willing to do it).


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## KarlHeinz (May 13, 2021)

cygnusdei said:


> Not supernatural, but take traditional Chinese medicine for example. It's only recently that science caught up with it when they found anti-inflammatory, anti-cancer bioactive alkaloid compounds in the herbs. Science had to go through the whole development of organic chemistry and oncology in the last century to begin to understand something that has been around for thousands of years.


Very good and much better example for what I wanted to say with the new quantum physics experiments prooving things that make up the chinese view of the world for thousand of years.

If you only accept "proven by science" I think you will miss a lot.....


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## mikeh-375 (May 13, 2021)

Here is an admittedly heavy and lengthy article that details research into human subjectivity and our relation to the rational cosmos with deep philosophical implications by a renowned psychiatrist. He distinguishes between spirituality and religion and actually offers an explanation for how we are wired for the former, but not the latter. There are some striking parallels with the so called 'Fall' of man and the following 'Exile' in his research and conclusions.

https://www.newdualism.org/papers/S.Grof/sgrof.htm


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## PeterN (May 13, 2021)

"Science" is not necessary neutral, our modern Western world view is guarded in a symbiosis with Christianity and materialistic sciences. The term "science" is a hierarchical entity - semantical in nature - which we are supposed to subordinate. A bit like the mythical "mastering engineer". Materialistic science and Christianity, both guard the set worldview - sometimes tossing each other - sometimes having a tea together - even books on philosophy are selected world views. Yea, taught in prestigious Universities - just see what happened to Rupert Sheldrake when he tried to provoke that line. You cant cross the Rubicon here. As an individual, you basically have to walk out of the whole Western society in order to have it more objectively in front of you - it is now in a state of a more sophisticated continuation of a control by Christianity. But control is of course needed for a stable society, so the English can drink their black tea in peace of mind. Break on through to the other side, like Morrison sang. Or is it even necessary. There was a man who learned to levitate - after years of practice - could cross the river by levitation - and the Buddha told him its a wasteof time, as there is a boat there ready. So hats the point of understanding world, when our most basic needs are in Maslows hierarchy already.

Free flowing thinking - no responsibilty


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## cygnusdei (May 13, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Traditional Chinese medicine also included acupuncture and ingesting mercury. I'd say that's a case-by-case basis.


Mercury? Must be good if one wants to gain weight  (apparently it's mercury salt though, and taking 'lithium' also sounds ominous, but it's lithium salt).


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## CoffeeLover (May 13, 2021)

as mundane everyday life seems to be,i find existance and conscious awareness to be highly supernatural pheonomenon.


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## bill5 (May 13, 2021)

Shiirai said:


> From the moment I wrote that, I knew someone was going to throw this one in my face. Good thing we've long been able to observe the biochemical processes that are involved so, well, you're wrong. Love is very observable.


Not "throwing it in your face," just pointing out that science doesn't have all the answers, and never will. That doesn't detract from it's considerable abilities and overwhelming contributions to mankind though.

As for love being observable...no, not in any scientific way it's not. Love cannot be scientifically proven, esp as it's hardly as simple as "a biochemical process." But you're free to *believe* that if you wish.


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 13, 2021)

GNP said:


> I've played Ouija before, and the force that moves the plate is very real.


I’ll second that! I’ve experienced Ouija activity first hand, and I can attest that there’s nothing amusing about it.


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## cygnusdei (May 14, 2021)

Apparently at one time ouija used to be wholesome, harmless fun, that is until The Exorcist (1973). Then suddenly ouija became the gateway to hell.


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## re-peat (May 14, 2021)

It seems to me, but I might be wrong — and I probably am because I (as empirical, rational an level-headed a chump as ever pottered about this world) don’t have the least interest in, or affinity with this topic —, that the supernatural and spiritism often gain in traction after things have turned pretty grim and dire on this planet of ours. No? It’s never _“I feel happy, I whistle while I work, zip-a-dee-doo-dah, let’s find out what’s happening on the other side, shall we?”_, it’s always _“things are bad, I feel down, I miss my departed loved ones, the future is grey and hopeless, maybe there is some comfort to be drawn from seeking contact with another dimension”_, isn’t it?

As I said, I don’t know much about this, but I do know that, for example, spiritism in England saw a big rise in followers immediately after the First World War. Unable to make sense of the horrors that had occurred the previous four years, people began looking for answers elsewhere, with a fast-growing interest in paragnosis and all things supernatural as a result. And there are many other examples to be found throughout history (frequently also showing that institutionalized religion never hesitates to move in on the turf of the spiritist movement in order to win souls in times of darkness).

The climate today, during what is hopefully the aftermath of the worst that Covid has wreaked on us, is not entirely dissimilar, I believe — the majority of the people simply unable to grasp the impact, scale, suffering, cost, and biological logic of the pandemic — creating a fertile environment not only for all sorts of conspiracy madness and ideological extremism, but also for trying to lift the veil on the unknown in the hope of getting some form of knowledge or enlightenment.

_


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## CGR (May 14, 2021)

There's been an interesting mix of responses to this question, but for what it's worth I'll offer two instances which to this day have left me wondering:

1. Whilst long-term house sitting for my Grandmother years ago, I was sitting up in bed reading one evening, and my wife walked into the room asking me a question about our car, and the old heavy brush from my Grandmother's hair brush & mirror set slid from one side of the sideboard/dresser with such force that it flew through the doorway and landed in the hallway. We both stared at each other with mouths open and didn't know what to say.

2. We live in a Victorian era house which was built in 1896 in the inner suburbs of Melbourne. We bought the house from developers and relocated it to a 3/4 acre block about 20 years ago. One evening when our two sons were being particularly annoying by not settling at bed time, we gave them a final warning that they just needed to stop messing about and go to sleep. We shut their bedroom door and the door of the lounge room in which we were sitting, across the hallway from the bedroom our boys were sharing at the time, but left the hallway light on. About 45 minutes passed, and we both clearly saw the distinct shadow of feet in the gap under the lounge room door, silently walking past down the hallway toward the front door (old house with uneven wooden floors). I flew out of my chair and into the hallway, ready to yell at the junior culprit, but found their bedroom door closed, and when I immediately checked on them the boys were fast asleep.


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## AudioLoco (May 14, 2021)

CGR said:


> There's been an interesting mix of responses to this question, but for what it's worth I'll offer two instances which to this day have left me wondering:
> 
> 1. Whilst long-term house sitting for my Grandmother years ago, I was sitting up in bed reading one evening, and my wife walked into the room asking me a question about our car, and the old heavy brush from my Grandmother's hair brush & mirror set slid from one side of the sideboard/dresser with such force that it flew through the doorway and landed in the hallway. We both stared at each other with mouths open and didn't know what to say.
> 
> 2. We live in a Victorian era house built in 1896 in the inner suburbs of Melbourne. We bought the house from developers and relocated it to a 3/4 acre block about 20 years ago. One evening when our two sons were being particularly annoying by not settling at bed time, we gave them a final warning that they just needed to stop messing about and go to sleep. We shut their bedroom door and the door of the lounge room in which we were sitting, across the hallway from the bedroom our boys were sharing at the time, but left the hallway light on. About 45 minutes passed, and we both clearly saw the distinct shadow of feet in the gap under the lounge room door, silently walking past down the hallway toward the front door (old house with uneven wooden floors). I flew out of my chair and into the hallway, ready to yell at the junior culprit, but found their bedroom door closed, and when I immediately checked on them the boys were fast asleep.


There is always a rational explanation for everything ....


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## bill5 (May 14, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> There is always a rational explanation for everything ....


I take it you were in a coma all of 2020?


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## PjDaAuthor (May 17, 2021)

FinGael said:


> Thank you for your thoughts.
> 
> My personal experience is that it is partially a cultural thing and conditioning is the most important deciding factor when it comes to this. Genes play a part and in my experience the person's incarnation history has a role; in my experience I see us as ageless beings who incarnate here many times in these body suits to develop the soul, or what term you want to use in that context.
> 
> ...





FinGael said:


> Thank you for your thoughts.
> 
> My personal experience is that it is partially a cultural thing and conditioning is the most important deciding factor when it comes to this. Genes play a part and in my experience the person's incarnation history has a role; in my experience I see us as ageless beings who incarnate here many times in these body suits to develop the soul, or what term you want to use in that context.
> 
> ...


You've said it all. I wanted to say to unlearn the things you have been programmed to believe as true and revert back to your natural self will get you more in tune with your spirit. And then you also have to seek it. It is also true that people are born with more spiritual capacity than others. I've had mine since birth but I didn't quite understand it back then like I do now. After 2013 I consciously started unlearning (I called it uneducating myself) everything and reverting to my natural self. The way it works is that the more you listen to your inner voice/intuition the more it develops, and your intuition can instruct you to do some of the most ridiculous things (everyone around you will start thinking there's something wrong with your choices) Around 2015, 2016 I had travelled to the city and was returning to my village which is about 4 hours journey. Even when i got to the big city there was this feeling I couldn't shake off.. When I got to the station where I'd pick the bus back to my village, immediately I got down at the station the area around my head like I a circular form started vibrating like I'd never felt before (I told someone and he referred it to spider man's senses) I knew something would happen but I didn't know what. I ignored it all and even when my intuition was telling me to go to the other side of the station to pick the bus there instead (because there's two places that you can pick the bus at the station to my destination) I still shook it off and entered the bus at the first place which I was closer to and because the car was almost full too.. So what I did was recite psalms 23 all through out the journey, just after an hour or so after the car had taken off with the driver driving at top speed and refusing to slow down even though the passengers kept complaining, his back tire burst and the car almost seemed like it would somersault uncontrollably but it's like a force held the car in place. It turned on its right side and skidded on the road till it came to a stop. The people sitting at the right side of the vehicle sustained minor injuries. I was seated in the middle and only got slight bruises. I took this as a sign that my intuition was developing fine and that all the listening I did to it though people around me didn't approve of my choice actually paid off. Take it like this God is like a radio station, you are the radio, if you don't tune in to God's frequency you will never hear that radio channel. Radio stations won't tune in to your radio, you have to tune in to the station. We are all capable of connecting to God some people more easily than others just like people are good at playing football better and so on.


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## Lionel Schmitt (May 17, 2021)

R. Soul said:


> It's funny in this day and age when everyone has there camera running 24/7, and 12.000 hours of videos are uploaded to YouTube daily, that the most convincing video's showing supernatural phenomenas are either fake or can be explained otherwise.
> 
> The human mind play tricks on us, and we are often convinced of a vision of sorts, but plenty of things can cause this, like sleep paralysis, pareidolia, electromagnetic fields, carbon monoxide poisoning etc.


I bet there are thousands of videos that have not been debunked or can hardly be explained otherwise, I could just link some random ones.
Btw, being able to "explain" something doesn't mean that explanation is right.

There are hundreds of hours of many people (not silly teenagers or youngsters, but many VERY believable sounding and sometimes sceptical adults) telling very much unexplainable stories fairly authentically on the podcast Campfire. There is no way that 100% of the unexplainable ones are fake. Only a single story has to be true for the supernatural activity to be true 

I also wasn't aware that everyone has cameras running, even an hour in the day. Complete bollox!
And if something odd like this happens you may well forget to film it in the moment.


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## Rodney Money (May 17, 2021)

Alright, I’ll share. What the worst that can happen, public humiliation and ridicule?

I’ve felt like I have encountered angels on 3 occasions. My mother passed away of a brain tumor when I was only 10 years-old, and from that moment I’ve constantly heard music within my head. My father remarried when I was 15 years-old, we moved into my stepmother’s house, I had to sleep in the living room because there was no room for me, and it was the 1st time I experienced depression. Late one night I could not sleep, tossing and turning, I felt a presence thinking my father came into the room to check on me. I even turned and said, “What,” thinking he was there, but as I turned I saw a man all in white with short dark black hair with the color of his skin liken to an Native American. I saw him for a few seconds and then he disappeared. I felt a rush of calm and fell asleep shortly.

The 2nd time was when I was a senior in high school at 18 years-old. I was at school where you have to climb a flight of stairs to get to the gym. As I was coming down the stairs I slipped and felt 2 hands on my back guiding me down as I landed safely near the bottom of the stairs on my 2 feet. I can still feel the touch to this day.

The 3rd time, and the most recent, was in 2009 while working in my studio composing a piece around 11:00pm at night. I felt someone looking over my shoulder literally an inch from me. I turned to see who it was and a women all in white with absolutely no color looking like a marble statue carved by Michelangelo leaned over my shoulder to see what I was working on. Then she turned to me, smiled for around 3 seconds, and vanished. I never felt such peace in my life.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (May 17, 2021)

I don’t want to believe in anything supernatural, because it scares the living crap out of me. However I have had one episode in my life which was odd. It was in 1997 or 1998; I was studying & living in a dormitory. One afternoon in my room, completely out of the blue, I got a bad bad feeling, kind of knowing with certainty, that something was very wrong at home with my parents. I got the impression that my dad had died. Of course I phoned home immediately and my mom answered, in tears. I asked what was happening and she told me my dad, who was battling dementia at the time, had been aggressive towards my mom, which he never had been before - he’d been throwing books at her and more. That’s it. Weird as hell! Could just be a coincidence of course, but still it was weird to get that sensation, that feeling of almost knowing 100% that something was wrong back home. Oh well.

It just occurs to me I’ve experienced one other episode. I have had surgery in my right ancle for a running injury, and unfortunately the operation was with complications, leaving me with various problems with the ancle afterwards. I tried everything to make it become better, i.e. I went to physical therapy more than 100 times paid by myself to see if I could inprove on the ancle. Nothing worked though, so out of desperation I went to a “healer” someone recommended. It was an old lady (isn’t it always!) and I remember I should sit with my right leg stretched out while she put her hands on my bad ancle. Then after a little while, I felt extremely warm, not just in the ancle, I remember getting thirsty because I felt so warm. I could also feel I got very red in my face. Kind of like you can feel it if you’re blushing. When time was up, the old lady said I should expect to come and get a number of treatments before it got better. However at the time I had already been to various different kinds of treatment, and they all said “come and pay some more money for a while, then it will get better”, but of course it never did. So I didn’t go to this so-called healer again. I must admit the reason I didn’t go again was also that it was too weird for me. I don’t believe in that kind of stuff at all, or maybe I should say, I don’t *want* to believe in it. Don’t want to hear about it or learn about it either. If something supernatural can come into play here in this life, I prefer to live happily without any knowledge of this!!


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## tack (May 17, 2021)

Reality is stranger than we can suppose. The mind is both a marvel and easily duped thanks to hundreds of thousands of years of evolved heuristics, most of which have served us extremely well, but regularly falter when they are confronted by atypical inputs. The ways in which our minds can fail us -- pareidolia, the ideomotor response, the myriad cognitive biases we all share -- are not adequately understood by most (counting myself among those numbers).

Think of the things the layperson today shrugs off without a second thought that were the basis of religions thousands of years ago (weather phenomena and the germ theory of disease, to name two). 

I'm not saying the supernatural doesn't exist, but I do know that it's depressingly common for people to appeal to the supernatural before even a cursory attempt to explain their experiences by natural causes, which includes an honest admission of the ways that their own brains can fail to accurately represent reality.


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## cygnusdei (May 18, 2021)

tack said:


> I'm not saying the supernatural doesn't exist, but I do know that it's depressingly common for people to appeal to the supernatural before even a cursory attempt to explain their experiences by natural causes, which includes an honest admission of the ways that their own brains can fail to accurately represent reality.


Your brain can definitely play tricks on you, and it's been proven in the lab:


> They blindfolded the participants, and asked them to manipulate a robot with their hands. As they did this, another robot traced these exact movements on the volunteers' backs.
> When the movements at the front and back of the volunteer's body took place at exactly the same time, they reported nothing strange.
> But when there was a delay between the timing of the movements, one third of the participants reported feeling that there was a ghostly presence in the room, and some reported feeling up to four apparitions were there.


But then again there is the 'life review' or near death experience where people see their whole life flashing before their eyes, and apparently this has been reported not by a few hundred or a few thousand, but 8 million people in the US alone! Something is astoundingly consistent, yet unexplained.


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## mikeh-375 (May 18, 2021)

cygnusdei said:


> Your brain can definitely play tricks on you, and it's been proven in the lab:
> 
> But then again there is the 'life review' or near death experience where people see their whole life flashing before their eyes, and apparently this has been reported not by a few hundred or a few thousand, but 8 million people in the US alone! Something is astoundingly consistent, yet unexplained.


There is a possible explanation but you'd have to read the link in my post 58 in this thread.


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## el-bo (May 18, 2021)

re-peat said:


> It seems to me, but I might be wrong — and I probably am because I (as empirical, rational an level-headed a chump as ever pottered about this world) don’t have the least interest in, or affinity with this topic —, that the supernatural and spiritism often gain in traction after things have turned pretty grim and dire on this planet of ours. No? It’s never _“I feel happy, I whistle while I work, zip-a-dee-doo-dah, let’s find out what’s happening on the other side, shall we?”_, it’s always _“things are bad, I feel down, I miss my departed loved ones, the future is grey and hopeless, maybe there is some comfort to be drawn from seeking contact with another dimension”_, isn’t it?
> 
> As I said, I don’t know much about this, but I do know that, for example, spiritism in England saw a big rise in followers immediately after the First World War. Unable to make sense of the horrors that had occurred the previous four years, people began looking for answers elsewhere, with a fast-growing interest in paragnosis and all things supernatural as a result. And there are many other examples to be found throughout history (frequently also showing that institutionalized religion never hesitates to move in on the turf of the spiritist movement in order to win souls in times of darkness).
> 
> ...


These are the moments when people lose their faith in an omnipresent, omnipresent, omniscient and boundlessly loving god. Plenty of beliefs available, ready to fill the vacuum of "Why?".


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## R. Soul (May 18, 2021)

DarkestShadow said:


> I bet there are thousands of videos that have not been debunked or can hardly be explained otherwise, I could just link some random ones.
> Btw, being able to "explain" something doesn't mean that explanation is right.
> 
> There are hundreds of hours of many people (not silly teenagers or youngsters, but many VERY believable sounding and sometimes sceptical adults) telling very much unexplainable stories fairly authentically on the podcast Campfire. There is no way that 100% of the unexplainable ones are fake. Only a single story has to be true for the supernatural activity to be true
> ...


This year around 1.4 trillion pictures will be taken. That's trillion, not billion.
Here in UK we have 5.2 million CCTV cameras. That's 1 for every 13 people. Once you've walked a mile something like 10 CCTV cameras has recorded you already. Add this to the 12.000 hours of YouTube vidoe's I mentioned before. If that's not 'everyone has there camera running 24/7' I don't know what is. 

Anecdotes are not evidence. 1000s of people are claiming to have been abducted by aliens every year, yet we have no concrete proof of such a thing ever happening. 
Ghosts can be explained as well, and even if an odd case has not been explained, doesn't mean that it's a ghost. If ghosts were real, there'd be overwhelming evidence to support their existence.
I forget his name, but one of the worlds leading Paranormal investigators has looked into 5000 ghost stories over 30 years, and have not been convinced of any of the cases.

Here's a few supernatural events that some people believe:
We used to think people with epilepsy was being possessed by demons - some countries still do.
As someone with epilepsy myself, this worries me.

Ouija boards are caused by the ideomotor effect - unconscious, involuntary physical movement.
I mention this, cause 2 people in this thread believe they are real.

150 women are killed each year in India, as they are believed to be witches.

Voodoo is still believed to be real in several African countries, it's even the official religion in Benin.

'This can't be a coincidence'.... with almost 8 billion people in the world, extremely unlikely things happens all the time.


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## cygnusdei (May 18, 2021)

R. Soul said:


> Ouija boards are caused by the ideomotor effect - unconscious, involuntary physical movement.
> I mention this, cause 2 people in this thread believe they are real.


Chevreul pendulum, dowsing rod etc. are conceivably ideomotor phenomena, i.e. microscopic movements amplified by mechanical devices. But from those to ouija is a huge, huge leap and to ascribe it to ideomotor effect strains reason. It could be that it's a case of life imitating art, similar to 'stage hypnosis', but the scientific angle seems tenuous to me.


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## mikeh-375 (May 18, 2021)

I'm all for spirituality but my incredulity is at a new cosmic high having read some posts in this thread. Still, each to their own, whatever gets you through life.


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## tmhuud (May 18, 2021)

I have actually....


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## Morning Coffee (May 18, 2021)

I truly believe that I have received a sign (at a crucial, formative time in my life) that God exists, but I won't mention it in this secular, anti-Christian forum. But I will mention that after my mother died a couple of years ago, I started seeing the number combinations of 11:11, a hell of a lot more!


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## Synetos (May 18, 2021)

Shiirai said:


> I have not and I do not 'believe' in anything that is not scientifically observable. There are many, many things that have been proven to be real that I have little to no knowledge of and I do not need the billions upon billions of 'unprovable possibilities' diluting reality any further.
> 
> Give me proof and I'll adjust my world view accordingly, as I must. Such is the fate of one who subscribes to science.
> 
> ...


The inability to "believe" something, or decision to not believe, doesnt make it untrue. Neither does believing make something true. However, it is a lie that science is the measure of reality. What is reality? What is Truth? Science is a weapon of deception.

You chose to dig your heels in on a worldview that no longer allows for the supernatural, because you didn't want to give up your perceived level of control. 

Choosing to believe empirical evidence (or science) is a myopic worldview, and in itself is a belief system (religion). As long as you close your mind to the possibility of anything other than "science", then you will never see anything other than what science can see. God could be standing right in front of you and you wouldnt see him. Been there, done that.

Human arrogance is a funny thing. We get stuff scientifically wrong all the time. Yet it is a false religion for blinding one from the Truth.

Humility is the first step to understanding our place in the universe, and how insignificant we are in a universe without a creator. It's not that most humans dont believe in God, we just dont want to submit to him. Humans want to BE God. We like to think we are Gods. That we matter. We try to lord over other races, nations, beliefs, as if we are supreme beings. We don't want to submit to a "real" God. If we "believe" in God, then we cant be God. We would have to serve him and not our own desires.

Again, just because you "choose" not to believe doesn't make something untrue. We all choose. Throughout life we choose poorly or wisely. Truth isn't relative or limited to ones own experiences. This one science can measure; every choice has consequences...good and/or bad.

Yes, I am a Christian and I don't just believe God is real, I know God is real. I know demons are real. I have seen both in ways that would make your skin crawl, and your heart melt.

Frankly, I have experienced way too may things to expect anyone to believe me. I don't care who believes me. What I know to be true is outside the narrow realm of science. I have seen things and experienced things that even I wouldn't believe if it hadn't happened to me personally. But...it did. I believed and then I saw things. Not I saw things, and then I believed.

So, my point is simple. I never saw Jesus, or had a two way conversation with God, or been face to face with a demon, etc, until I opened my mind and heart to the possibility of something greater than what I currently believed to be true. The moment i truly believed, He was revealed. 

Until you have seen someone healed by prayer, right before your eyes, you wont believe it is possible. You will grab every other explanation you can find, except the one that it actually is. Been there, done that, too.

I studied Philosophy and many religions in college. My undergrad degree is actually in Philosophy. Back then, I was searching for the truth as my mother was dying from cancer. It took another 20+ years and facing the doom of my own life ending at Mayo Clinic before I truly got down on my knees and opened my heart. That was the beginning of a whole new life for me. I was transformed, healed, and made new. Incidentally, struggle and pain is when most of us will finally be humbled and look up to something greater than ourselves...as if we always knew it was there...waiting. 

My story is utterly amazing to me (and to many others), but it is my story, for my life and my witness. Yours is still being written as we speak. Since you are not dead yet, you have no idea what lies ahead. Perhaps when you are waiting on a death sentence in a medical exam room for yourself, or someone you love, you will look up. Your desire for hope will be greater than your desire for being "right" about what you dont believe in. In those moments, you may be humble and the truth will actually set you free. It doesnt mean it will change the situation, but it may change your life. 

Science isnt going to rescue you and give you any hope for anything meaningful or spiritual. 

I heard a Psychologist explain why he believed the Bible story to be true. He said, if Jesus was not real, the apostles would have capitulated and scattered after he was crucified. Instead, they all testified until their dying breath that it was true. As a clinical psychologist, he knew that few would die for something they knew to be false. All of them died for what they believed. The only one to die of natural causes was John, after he was exiled to the island of Patmos. So, there is a scientific basis for faith of one man. 11 men died violently defending what they believed to be true. That was all he needed to take his leap of faith.

A life without Jesus may be a good life, but a life following Jesus is the absolute best life. Not a life without struggle, pain, or loss, but one with hope, love, and meaning. I chose that. I chose to believe, and then so much was revealed to me.

Anyway, we all have free will. We all have a choice. From what you have shared, perhaps you might look deeper before landing on the religion of science and welding your docking clamps.


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## AudioLoco (May 18, 2021)

Synetos said:


> religion of science


Science is the complete opposite of religion, its very core is questioning itself all the time and re-writing its rules once something has been proved, thorough experiments and absolute repeatibility.
Religion involve unmovable dogmas.

"Atheism is a religion like *not collecting stamps is a hobby*."


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## wst3 (May 18, 2021)

So for me the term supernatural means not yet understood by mankind. Everything is, by definition, natural, an we are fooling ourselves if we believe that we understand nature and the universe.

Have I experienced things that I can not explain? Of course. Do I credit that to the supernatural, as defined by others? No, I credit it to things that are beyond my comprehension, including an overly active (at times) imagination.

Examples?

I grew up in a 1740s era log house (an amazing place to grow up!). As teenagers we started to hear the front door open and close while we were in the back of the house. We had dogs, and they heard it too. They would investigate, and so would we, at first. Never found someone there. Over time we attributed the noise to "our house ghost" and stopped paying attention. It continued to happen until shortly before my father died, and my mother never mentioned it again. Was it still happening and she was conditioned to ignore it? Was it mass hysteria? I can't explain it, but five reasonable people and four dogs all heard it more than once.

My wife died three and a half years ago. I would give anything to have five more minutes with her, to let her know just how much she was loved. So when I see signs (e.g. dimes popping up, cardinals, rainbows, etc) I tend to write them off as wishful thinking. But over the course of the last three and a half years I've seen (or possibly noticed?) far more of all of these than before she died. I really would like to believe that these are signs from her. Almost as much as I'd like that five more minutes.

I attribute this to my need for a sign, and me noticing things I did not notice before. Now maybe that's the supernatural part? I honestly do not know.


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## Lionel Schmitt (May 18, 2021)

R. Soul said:


> This year around 1.4 trillion pictures will be taken. That's trillion, not billion.
> Here in UK we have 5.2 million CCTV cameras. That's 1 for every 13 people. Once you've walked a mile something like 10 CCTV cameras has recorded you already. Add this to the 12.000 hours of YouTube vidoe's I mentioned before. If that's not 'everyone has there camera running 24/7' I don't know what is.
> 
> Anecdotes are not evidence. 1000s of people are claiming to have been abducted by aliens every year, yet we have no concrete proof of such a thing ever happening.
> ...


I didn't say anecdotes are evidence. Just that I find it more absurd to think they are all either crazy or lying. More so than the paranormal. (which basically just means there are things beyond our compehension and it would be quite mad to think we know everything. Tells me a lot that you just talk about "ghosts" mostly)

And ok - this investigator has not found convincing evidence in cases where people have seen ghosts apparently, which isn't surprising - how would you provide that convincing evidence when the event is over and you didn't film it?
Or you did and it's not clear whether it's fake or not. Might not be provable one way or another.

And CCTV cameras are pretty irrelevant because they are only reviewed when there is a good reason for it like a crime. I doubt that even if you'd try to get access to the footage because of a spook event that you would get access. So it's all irrelevant and lost if something has been filmed.

And yes, of these many YouTube videos there are many paranormal ones, so what's your point?
Again, I still offer linking random videos and you feel free to debunk them.  
I don't know how you can say (earlier) that all of these videos can be exlained or are fake. That's a bit of a big statement with the many many that are out there.

If you can't (will be the case most of the time I guess) then it's a they are either real, explainable, or paranormal.
My view is that a bunch of those must be real and if I don't come up with or receive a logical explanation I can accept I consider them to most likely be a paranormal event.

Again, no need to remain stubborn with "evidence" because I'm not saying any of that stuff is evidence. I just personally find it harder to believe that all truly unexplainable or hardly explainable videos are fake or the stories made up or spun up by insane people.
You'd have to be pretty insane to halluzinate so strongly, especially if it's a one time event.

Not sure why you mention these things people believe...

The Ouija board... well yea - maybe your explanation applies in some cases, I think I've heard it before. In other cases it might be paranormal. I am open to both. You could try that too


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## tack (May 18, 2021)

DarkestShadow said:


> Just that I find it more absurd to think they are all either crazy or lying.


There's the third more probable explanation: they're mistaken, and their minds are furnishing their experiences with post-hoc embellishments.


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## Lionel Schmitt (May 18, 2021)

tack said:


> There's the third more probable explanation: they're mistaken, and their minds are furnishing their experiences with post-hoc embellishments.


"crazy". I covered that.

If you think you see your chair moving rapidbly through the room without this being the case, then you're seriously in trouble. Use as many fancy words as you like for it.
This can't be the case for more than a tiny amount of people. 
Some of the intense stuff people are telling about on Campfire for instance would require soooo much *insert fancy tack text* that you might as well call it crazy to save some words.
Of course not in their face, but they reaaaly would need help. Well, I think most don't :D


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## R. Soul (May 18, 2021)

DarkestShadow said:


> "crazy". I covered that.
> 
> If you think you see your chair moving rapidbly through the room without this being the case, then you're seriously in trouble. Use as many fancy words as you like for it.
> This can't be the case for more than a tiny amount of people.
> ...


Why is there no confirmed ghost videos? I mean, it's not like no one ever tried. There's got to be a least a handful of 'ghost hunters' TV shows, where they go to the most haunted houses in the world, but yet always end up empty handed. Are ghosts shy, when the cameras are on?

Same with UFO's. If aliens had visited or are here now, I think everyone in the world would know.
I also find it funny how all these video's show a blurry image. Or when there's actually 'evidence', like the famous Roswell case, it turns out to be a weather balloon, or other natural phenomena.

In 2019 there was almost 6000 UFO sightings in USA alone. By your logic, UFO's must be real, as that many people can't be mistaken. This is what is known as the Ad populum fallacy.
In the past it was 'known' that the earth was flat - everyone believed that, but it turned out, that that wasn't the case. There's still people who believe that today.


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## tack (May 18, 2021)

DarkestShadow said:


> "crazy". I covered that.


No, that's not crazy. Having your mind filling in and in some cases rewriting details after-the-fact is completely typical. It's well established that recalling memories ends up mutating them because they are constantly being reinterpreted, and the more confident a person is in their memory the less likely it is to be accurate. All entirely commonplace things for the human mind. Crazy is _atypical_.

The vast majority of these reported experiences are from decidedly _not_ crazy people. It's just that these people and those who hear their accounts are apparently unaware of just how much liberty our minds actually take in building mental models of what we experience.

When someone says they saw a ghost I never think they're crazy, I just think they're wrong about what they saw. And without any evidence about the encounter, and no ability to reproduce it under controlled conditions, all we can do is rely on their memory. And human memory is conclusively garbage.


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## SchnookyPants (May 18, 2021)

My Sub-Natural experiences are scary enough for me...


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## R. Soul (May 18, 2021)

Polkasound said:


> Everyone ponders their existence. If they start by automatically taking God and creation out of the equation, then they're choosing to look at their existence from only one, specific point of view... the view of secular science. Secular science tells us our existence likely came about when nothing exploded into everything and prebiotic slime on rocks evolved into people. Since these are all unproven theories (and often supported by the same evidence that supports creation) they require just as much faith as biblical creation. Many atheists gravitate toward secular science, invariably making it a quasi religion.
> 
> I can't speak for Synetos, but I don't think he was condemning the field of science as being a religion, but rather saying that if an atheist attests no God exists because scientific experiments can't prove the existence of one, then he is choosing to place his faith in something else.


Atheism is not a belief that God doesn't exist. It's merely a rejection of the 3000 Gods that have been made up by men. You say 'God exist cause my book says so'. We say 'I'm not convinced'. It's that simple. In the same way we reject the Quran, book of Mormons, Torah, Puranas etc.

I have never heard an atheist declare that the universe exploded from nothing. I only ever hear that from theist. The leading cosmologists, like for example Sean Carroll and Lawrence Krauss, states that the universe was a rapid expansion from a singularity - a point of infinite density and gravity. They make no claim of any nothing ever having existed. And they make no claim of a 'before' that point, because how can you have a 'before' when time started at that point. Talking about a time before the Big bang, is like talking about what is north of the north pole.

Creation - you seriously believe the earth is 6000 years old?
That goes against fields as vast as paleontology, geology, cosmology, archaeology, microbiology and probably a few more that I'm forgetting, but hey, don't let that stop you.
What theories do you have, other than 'God did it', which is not a theory at all.

Regarding scientific theories - they are not the same as laymans theories.
A scientific theory is an explanation of some aspect of the natural world that has been substantiated through repeated experiments or testing. It's not a hunch. There's nothing above a theory when it comes to science.
The germ theory, theory of relativity and Quantum field theory. They are all theories but they will remains so. A theory never becomes a law.


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## tack (May 18, 2021)

Polkasound said:


> If they start by automatically taking God and creation out of the equation


You've got this backwards. You don't take things out of the equation, you add them into the equation once you have evidence for them.


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## Polkasound (May 18, 2021)

R. Soul said:


> Creation - you seriously believe the earth is 6000 years old?
> That goes against fields as vast as paleontology, geology, cosmology, archaeology, microbiology and probably a few more that I'm forgetting, but hey, don't let that stop you.


No it doesn't. The scientific fields themselves are all about evidence, and evidence can support more than one view. I am interested in all fields of science. I just don't look at evidence and make assumptions based on a worldview, even if that worldview is supported by the vast majority of scientists. 



R. Soul said:


> 'God did it', which is not a theory at all.






tack said:


> You've got this backwards. You don't take things out of the equation, you add them into the equation once you have evidence for them.


The exclusion of everything for which there is no evidence is, in itself, a belief system.


I can see a great religious debate staring to brew here, and I don't want to be responsible for the thread going in that direction, so this will be my last post. Anyone is welcome to PM me if they want to know what my views and beliefs are and why. In between editing audio samples, I'll take the time to answer them.


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## Tim_Wells (May 18, 2021)

Great topic. A few years ago, I would be 100% with all the nay-sayers. I don't go for snake-oil or a lot of "woo-woo" New Age stuff.

But one thing that opened me to other possibilities is listening to those who've had near-death experiences. Story after story of a consciousness beyond what we typically know. I don't think all those people are lying or fooling themselves. 

I think science may have to open to something beyond the purely mechanical explanation for everything. A.A is an example of a spiritual and psychological program where people recover from a once incurable disease - alcoholism. I've used something somewhat similar to recover from chronic pain and other debilitating illnesses. 

So yeah... there could be something more out there. Even quantum physics seems pretty super-natural.


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## tack (May 18, 2021)

Polkasound, we can pontificate about the foundations of epistemology but the thing about the scientific method is that it delivers the goods. You can pray all day long for smallpox to go away, or for faster satellite internet, or for better range on your electric car, or for some way of feeding a planet with 10+ billion people, or finding some way off this rock after we've ruined it, but we all know the way those things actually happen.

Whether or not you think the products of science are _good_ is of course a value judgment. Science is a tool that can be used for all manner of things, including terrible things, but the scientific method is demonstrably the single best tool for understanding the universe we live in.


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## Lionel Schmitt (May 18, 2021)

tack said:


> No, that's not crazy. Having your mind filling in and in some cases rewriting details after-the-fact is completely typical. It's well established that recalling memories ends up mutating them because they are constantly being reinterpreted, and the more confident a person is in their memory the less likely it is to be accurate. All entirely commonplace things for the human mind. Crazy is _atypical_.
> 
> The vast majority of these reported experiences are from decidedly _not_ crazy people. It's just that these people and those who hear their accounts are apparently unaware of just how much liberty our minds actually take in building mental models of what we experience.
> 
> When someone says they saw a ghost I never think they're crazy, I just think they're wrong about what they saw. And without any evidence about the encounter, and no ability to reproduce it under controlled conditions, all we can do is rely on their memory. And human memory is conclusively garbage.


You obviously have never listened to seriously intense stories of haunted houses and similar things.
There is no way that some of that stuff is a normal mutated memory, especially if multiple people are experiencing it.
It's not just about single instances of seeing a ghost. That's way too fuzzy, of course you could have seen "something" that you remember as a ghost.
But if it's something super concrete like.... a chair moving on it's own.... then that's for damn sure what happened.
I've listened to many hours of people recalling their encounters and many of them can in no way be explained by "normal" false memory, they are way too intense and often happen many many times, which should give any reasonable person room to correct that memory.


R. Soul said:


> Why is there no confirmed ghost videos? I mean, it's not like no one ever tried. There's got to be a least a handful of 'ghost hunters' TV shows, where they go to the most haunted houses in the world, but yet always end up empty handed. Are ghosts shy, when the cameras are on?
> 
> Same with UFO's. If aliens had visited or are here now, I think everyone in the world would know.
> I also find it funny how all these video's show a blurry image. Or when there's actually 'evidence', like the famous Roswell case, it turns out to be a weather balloon, or other natural phenomena.
> ...


I don't know which shows you watched, but I only watched 3-4 episodes of some show I don't quite remember the name of and they very much did get results. (that's fake of course, I get it  )
Also the people seemed very authentical and told intense and hardly refutable things. I think I have a rather sharp noise for fake and acting. They must either be amazing actors that never starred anywhere else or they are saying truth. 

I wonder how much you looked into these cases to just accept the explanation. From what I know it's not conclusive at all and it's very possible the government is covering things up. That's not conspiracy nonsense. It's very reasonable to prevent a mass panic. Imagine the government would announce tomorrow that aliens are checking us out............ 

The UFO comparison makes zero sense because technically everything flying you see and can't explain is an UFO. It could literally be anything. Even rare military crafts or teste etc.
So yea, UFO's are 100% real. It's just "unidentified flying object". Does that mean that those are aliens? Nope. You got no clue about "my logic" 
I'm also mostly talking about the stories in that podcast I listen to, which go faaaaaaar beyond "ghost sightings". And there is an insane amount of them. In THAT case I will apply "my logic" and can't see the idea of all of them lying or being wrong for whatever reason as reasonable. 
It always depends on the type of story. If it's just people seeing something that they think looks like a ghost then it's possible all of them are wrong. Same with the UFO's - which never means "aliens" anyway as mentioned earlier. But if it's seriously intense stories of 100% clear creatures, multiple times, seen by multiple people or severly haunted houses it's very hard to deny.


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## tack (May 18, 2021)

DarkestShadow said:


> But if it's something super concrete like.... a chair moving on it's own.... then that's for damn sure what happened.


Fair enough. Apart from the three explanations we talked about so far (they're lying, they're crazy, or they're misremembering) there's also a fourth: they were being deceived or manipulated by someone else.

At the end of the day, with all those possibilities on the table, no amount of stories in the world are enough to make me think the natural order was suspended in Bob's living room one day. And I don't suppose it'll surprise you to learn I think it shouldn't be enough for you or anyone else either. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for extraordinary evidence to meet the extraordinary claims.


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## Dave Connor (May 18, 2021)

Humankind has been devising ways to peer into the unseen/unknown for millennia. I probably shouldn’t be surprised that even in this modern day there are those that dismiss this ancient curiosity as nonsense or superstition. That same curiosity is what lead to a record turnaround in creating a vaccine that could save many millions of lives.

Whether through ritual, prayer, meditation or even drugs - to microscopes, telescopes, radio, spectral, infrared, pressurized environments, mathematics, geometry etc., - numerous formally _mysterious_ realms are now firmly categorized as _scientific._ Meaning that whatever present mysteries science is still not able to measure such as other dimensions (other planes of existence referred to in the past as _heavens _or _hells - _higher or lower planes) science will one day confirm - at least to some extent.

Every discovered macro or micro space in the universe is rife with scientific properties. So any other space such as might be found in a parallel dimension or universe of sorts will most likely contain those properties as well.

Presently it looks like every kook whoever claimed an encounter with extra terrestrials is far more in the camp of Galileo then some fanatical _believer_ in UFO’s.


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## KarlHeinz (May 18, 2021)

Simply want to thank evryone in here, from cygnusdei who started the thread to the guy before and (hopefully lot of  ) after my post for posting all that stuff AND doing it in a sensible way even if the "opinions, believings,....?" differ as much as live(s) do.

I have learned a lot in here over the days this thread is alive. For example to think twice (or even more  ) before following my usual instincts......

As the "last in line" especially Polkasound  . Of course the same question about the 6000 years lies on my tongue......

But after thinking (twice or whatever...): no, I dont think its needed to be asked.

The really "big" thing I realized for myself out of this thread is how happy I am to be able to listen to all of this honest, trusting (thanks especially to Rodney), different views of and on the world and beyond.

How great human beings could be, how great love and believing could be if it is FOR and not AGAINST....

Thanks to you all really......


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## cygnusdei (May 18, 2021)

KarlHeinz said:


> Simply want to thank evryone in here, from cygnusdei who started the thread to the guy before and (hopefully lot of  ) after my post for posting all that stuff AND doing it in a sensible way even if the "opinions, believings,....?" differ as much as live(s) do.
> 
> I have learned a lot in here over the days this thread is alive. For example to think twice (or even more  ) before following my usual instincts......
> 
> ...


Thanks man. And now to lighten the mood ...


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## bill5 (May 18, 2021)

Rodney Money said:


> Alright, I’ll share. What the worst that can happen, public humiliation and ridicule?


Nobody ridiculed my dog story (yet) so I think you're safe.  I'm curious though: you said you hear music in your head "constantly?" Like since then it's always going on?




DarkestShadow said:


> being able to "explain" something doesn't mean that explanation is right.


Good point. On the other hand and as others have pointed out, not being able to explain something doesn't mean it's supernatural...yet it can't be ruled out either. Like they say, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. 

I think one of the hardest things about a topic like this is to be objective. We try to be, we think we are, but often biases creep in whether we realize it or not. People who believe in it tend to dismiss the "there's an ordinary explanation for everything idea," convinced such things exist even if they've had no such experience and can't really back it up. And people who don't believe tend to dismiss a possible supernatural explanation outright. I don't mean they dismiss it being true; they dismiss even the possibility, even though the answer is unknown. They don't want there to be a supernatural explanation, therefore they've already slammed that door shut.


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## Lionel Schmitt (May 18, 2021)

tack said:


> Fair enough. Apart from the three explanations we talked about so far (they're lying, they're crazy, or they're misremembering) there's also a fourth: they were being deceived or manipulated by someone else.
> 
> At the end of the day, with all those possibilities on the table, no amount of stories in the world are enough to make me think the natural order was suspended in Bob's living room one day. And I don't suppose it'll surprise you to learn I think it shouldn't be enough for you or anyone else either. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for extraordinary evidence to meet the extraordinary claims.


Yea, makes sense. But only if we talk about making up your mind to 100% about whether something is true.
I don't need any evidence to consider the possiblity that it's true. And I don't need an explanation to consider that it may be explainable. And then comes my personal subjective feeling/opinion of course. 
But to me these possibilites are not compelling enough to dismiss any amount of stories out there as a batch.
Even the ones I heard can hardly be dismissed with these explanations, at least not without a ton of guess work and mental gymnastics.

To me it seems that I think there are paranormal events but am open to the possibility that they can all be explained (I just doubt it strongly) while you seem to be 100% closed to the possibility of paranormal events. Obvious what I think about  


bill5 said:


> Nobody ridiculed my dog story (yet) so I think you're safe.  I'm curious though: you said you hear music in your head "constantly?" Like since then it's always going on?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yea, indeed. I'm luckily between these two, with a bias towards the paranormal 
Just because I find it harder to think that we know everything than thinking there just things beyond our comprehension. At the end we're just somewhat evolved apes that think in patterns and mostly in the shackles of what other apes told us. XD


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## tack (May 18, 2021)

DarkestShadow said:


> you seem to be 100% closed to the possibility of paranormal events


Not in principle. I just need evidence rather than anecdote. If the right evidence is there I'll believe anything about anything.


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## Lionel Schmitt (May 18, 2021)

tack said:


> Not in principle. I just need evidence rather than anecdote. If the right evidence is there I'll believe anything about anything.


that means being 100% closed.
Openness is being open (without believing it) to a possibility without evidence.
"might be, might not be".
If you need evidence to not fully reject a possibility you are 100% closed. Especially since it's almost impossible to get evidence for this (videos and pictures are fake, stories irrelevant), unless you experience something extremely strong and irrefutable yourself. Which then won't count as evidence for others haha


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## tack (May 18, 2021)

DarkestShadow said:


> If you need evidence to not fully reject a possibility you are 100% closed.


Not believing something is completely different from fully rejecting it.

When a jury finds a defendant not guilty, they aren't saying he's innocent, they are saying the evidence was not sufficient to meet the burden of finding guilt.


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## bill5 (May 18, 2021)

Morning Coffee said:


> I truly believe that I have received a sign (at a crucial, formative time in my life) that God exists, but I won't mention it in this secular, anti-Christian forum. But I will mention that after my mother died a couple of years ago, I started seeing the number combinations of 11:11, a hell of a lot more!


Maybe I missed something, but I don't get the impression this is an anti-Christian forum. There are people of varying beliefs here, and most seem pretty respectful of others. And sorry to hear about your mother, and others here who have experienced loss.




AudioLoco said:


> Science is the complete opposite of religion, its very core is questioning itself all the time and re-writing its rules once something has been proved, thorough experiments and absolute repeatibility.
> Religion involve unmovable dogmas.
> 
> "Atheism is a religion like *not collecting stamps is a hobby*."


Not really a valid analogy, although true that Atheism isn't a religion as such, it is a religious belief system; it addresses the issue of God. People who don't collect stamps don't even address it. Also take note that atheism does not preclude the existence of an afterlife, although I think it's fair to say most (nearly all, I'd think) people who identify as atheists don't believe that either.




R. Soul said:


> Atheism is not a belief that God doesn't exist.


? That's exactly what it is, by definition. Or to be more precise, that no God(s) of any kind exist.




> Creation - you seriously believe the earth is 6000 years old?
> 
> What theories do you have, other than 'God did it', which is not a theory at all.


Yeah it is, since a belief is a theory, when you get down to it, just not a scientific one. And believing God created the Earth doesn't equate to the "Young Earth" theory. Further, science and God are not mutually exclusive. 



tack said:


> the scientific method is demonstrably the single best tool for understanding the universe we live in.


Yes, but the topic here is not the universe we live in. We're talking about things beyond that, in another existence or realm or whatever you want to call it.


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## jononotbono (May 18, 2021)

Can't remember a thing about this drunken night but once upon a time I went out drinking in Darlington. I woke up in a graveyard. Completely wearing someone else's clothes. Down to someone else's underwear. I ain't afraid of no Ghosts.


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## Rodney Money (May 18, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Nobody ridiculed my dog story (yet) so I think you're safe.  I'm curious though: you said you hear music in your head "constantly?" Like since then it's always going on?


Yes, ever since my mom passed away when I was 10 I could hear an entire orchestra in my head all the time. I didn’t know what to do with this until I was around 18. For example, I had a big orchestral commission back in 2019 but I was across the world in the Philippines. When we were chilling in the hotel room I would just lay on the bed composing in my head seeing every note from the violin solo, strings, brass, woodwinds, percussion, and organ. When we got back 2 weeks later I could just go to the computer engraving the sheet music and done.


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## InLight-Tone (May 18, 2021)

"I and my father Sun/Light are ONE"...


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## Mike Fox (May 18, 2021)

OK, this is weird. I was seriously just about to start a thread like this. WTF?! Haha!

And yeah, i 100% believe. I’ve personally experienced waaaay too much weird shit not to believe in the supernatural.


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## clisma (May 18, 2021)

tack said:


> Apart from the three explanations we talked about so far (they're lying, they're crazy, or they're misremembering) there's also a fourth: they were being deceived or manipulated by someone else.


And perhaps a fifth: (inter-dimensional) entanglement.


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## Braveheart (May 18, 2021)

I became friend with someone who’s a psychic and a medium. This person can sometime sense some things about me, that I didn’t told that person, and when it happens, it’s always accurate. I even asked some questions that I only knew the answer, and that person was spot on.


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## bill5 (May 18, 2021)

Rodney Money said:


> Yes, ever since my mom passed away when I was 10 I could hear an entire orchestra in my head all the time.


You could hear or you did hear? i.e. I'm just wondering if it was optional or always in the background like Dianna Troi in that TNG episode  Glad you found an outlet for it though!


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## InLight-Tone (May 18, 2021)

This INFINITE UNIverse is all there is, and that's enough...


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## bill5 (May 18, 2021)

There's no conclusive evidence that the universe is infinite or finite.


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## AudioLoco (May 18, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Not really a valid analogy, although true that Atheism isn't a religion as such, it is a religious belief system; it addresses the issue of God. People who don't collect stamps don't even address it. Also take note that atheism does not preclude the existence of an afterlife, although I think it's fair to say most (nearly all, I'd think) people who identify as atheists don't believe that either.



If you told me you can fly when nobody watches you, I would have no way of disproofing you.

Although with my knowledge and experience on this earth I would tend not to believe you can actually fly.
It's up to you to prove it to me. 
Until then it is a just your personal belief. (Which I would respect and not make fun of, everyone should be free)

But, especially after having zero proof of you flying, it's really not up to you to attach a label on me of worshipper of a new religious belief system of " the people who believe you can not fly".


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## Rodney Money (May 19, 2021)

bill5 said:


> You could hear or you did hear? i.e. I'm just wondering if it was optional or always in the background like Dianna Troi in that TNG episode  Glad you found an outlet for it though!


Did hear. It’s always on.


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## Loïc D (May 19, 2021)

I saw a few ghostwriters here and around (sorry if the joke’s been made already).

Never experienced supernatural (whatever you define it) but in Asian many of my friends & relatives are strong believers in ghosts.

I feel mystical feelings in 1 specific place : Kyoto. That place is really holy to me. Can’t explain why.


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## Mike Fox (May 19, 2021)

When I was about 17 (I'm 38 now) I was really curious about the paranormal, so I went out and bought some standard "ghost hunting" equipment (tape recorders, emf meters, etc.), and checked out all the local places that were supposedly haunted. I went to graveyards, abandoned houses, and even an abandoned cremation building. I usually did this every weekend with some friends, and while I saw and heard strange things happen during these investigations, It wasn't until really bizarre things started to take place in my own home that really had me questioning.

Some of the activity included doors and cupboards opening and closing by themselves, the TV's in the house would randomly turn off and on, footsteps throughout the house were heard when no one was home, my stepdad (a non believer) starting hearing voices, my mom claims she saw a full bodied apparition, my cousin (also a non believer) who was housesitting one night claims she heard someone run down the hall, slam the bedroom door, and began banging on the wall (again, no one was home).

The creepiest incident was when i came home one night, and my younger brother was standing in the doorway of our house, almost as if he was about to run out. He had tears in his eyes, and was really shaken up. When I asked him what was wrong he said, “Mike, I just heard something heavy being dragged across the floor upstairs.” I searched the entire house and couldn’t find a single thing to explain what he had just heard. Whatever it was, it scared the living hell out of him.

This kind of stuff went on for months, but none of the activity ever occurred before I started ghost hunting, and I actually started to think, “Did something follow me home?”

Funny enough, shortly after i stopped ghost hunting, these odd occurrences in my house came to a complete halt.


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## cygnusdei (May 19, 2021)

Here are two quotes from popular culture, take them as you wish.

From True Blood (vampire Bill replying to Sookie):


> You think that it's not magic that keeps you alive? Just because you understand the mechanics of how something works doesn't make it any less of a miracle. Which is just another word for magic. We're all kept alive by magic, Sookie. My magic's just a little different from yours, that's all.


From Harry Potter


> Harry: Tell me one last thing. Is this real? Or has this been happening inside my head?
> Dumbledore: Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?


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## Mike Fox (May 19, 2021)

cygnusdei said:


> Here are two quotes from popular culture, take them as you wish.
> 
> From True Blood (vampire Bill replying to Sookie):
> 
> From Harry Potter


I remember back in college I was having a discussion with the chairman of the science department. The dude was a brilliant geneticist, and when I asked him how the eukaryotic cell knew what to do as far as carrying out all the specific tasks it does, he answered with, “It’s magic!”.

That always stuck with me.


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## SupremeFist (May 19, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> I remember back in college I was having a discussion with the chairman of the science department. The dude was actually a brilliant geneticist, and when I asked him how the eukaryotic cell knew what to do as far as carrying out all the specific tasks it does, he answered with, “It’s magic!”.
> 
> That always stuck with me.


A propos of that, how do particles know that they should follow the "laws of physics"? No good explanation actually exists.


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## cygnusdei (May 19, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> A propos of that, how do particles know that they should follow the "laws of physics"? No good explanation actually exists.


It's just considered polite to interact with the other particles.


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## mscp (May 19, 2021)

I once saw my computer turn itself on after shutting it down. I ran away immediately. Little did I know it was a setting issue.


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## Will Blackburn (May 19, 2021)

cygnusdei said:


> Like the title says, I'm curious to hear your personal, first-person experience. As for me, I can't say that I have, although I want to keep an open mind. If spirits etc. exist, they must operate on a wavelength/plane removed from mine, that I lack the ability to sense them.



Had OBE's most of my life if those count. They are great fun


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## Trash Panda (May 19, 2021)

Back in college, as a freshman who was way too far up his own ass about Philosophy 101, I experienced what I believed to be a moment of Enlightenment. I was just sitting in my dorm room thinking about what I thought was SUPER DEEP philosophical stuff, when suddenly I had this weird moment.

I was no longer in my body, looking around at what I concluded at the time was the collective consciousness of humanity. A big, white and blue swirling cloud of energy with specks constantly joining and breaking off. I guessed they were souls at the time. Breaking off to experience independent existence before rejoining the collective consciousness after death.

There was a complete and total sense of nirvana for about a week, combined with what felt like true clarity and understanding of the world around me and a profound sense of inner peace. Over time, that faded, and I could never achieve that moment of zen over the 20 years since.

That’s about the closest to the supernatural I’ve experienced and it could just be nothing more than some crazy moment of neurons firing in just the right way to produce the experience.

These days, I tend to believe the supernatural is just like magic of the old days. Stuff we just haven’t yet figured out. Maybe ghosts are nothing more than bored extra dimensional beings that can read the electromagnetic field of our brains and have their fun by pushing the right buttons to make us believe weird stuff is happening.


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## Mike Fox (May 20, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Back in college, as a freshman who was way too far up his own ass about Philosophy 101, I experienced what I believed to be a moment of Enlightenment. I was just sitting in my dorm room thinking about what I thought was SUPER DEEP philosophical stuff, when suddenly I had this weird moment.
> 
> I was no longer in my body, looking around at what I concluded at the time was the collective consciousness of humanity. A big, white and blue swirling cloud of energy with specks constantly joining and breaking off. I guessed they were souls at the time. Breaking off to experience independent existence before rejoining the collective consciousness after death.
> 
> ...


The stress of college will do that to ya!


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## Craig Duke (May 21, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Back in college, as a freshman who was way too far up his own ass about Philosophy 101, I experienced what I believed to be a moment of Enlightenment. I was just sitting in my dorm room thinking about what I thought was SUPER DEEP philosophical stuff, when suddenly I had this weird moment.
> 
> I was no longer in my body, looking around at what I concluded at the time was the collective consciousness of humanity. A big, white and blue swirling cloud of energy with specks constantly joining and breaking off. I guessed they were souls at the time. Breaking off to experience independent existence before rejoining the collective consciousness after death.
> 
> ...


I was given a BMW 4-series loaner the other day. It had a feature during backup where along with the trunk camera there was a display of the car and everything around it from the height of 20’ or so )an out-of-auto experience). The BMW SW reconstruct this view using the data from the many external cameras.

Neuroscience knows that the brain produces many maps of the body within its nearby physical world. It uses both perceived data and memory to create these maps. In the case of OOB experiences, the brain is using its data to do what the BMW is doing. While body placement errors happen in-the-small to all of us, others experience them in the extreme (the OOB experience). OOB can be also be consistently produced in any individual via transcranial magnetic stimulation and by other means.

Perception is a creation of our brain using samples of the external world, memory and algorithms defined in networks of neurons. Many will view this explanation as much less sexy than a supernatural one. For me, the jaw dropping complexity of the brain and how much remains to be learned is much more exciting.


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## Eden Reign (Jul 14, 2021)

I saw several times UFOS and other paranormal things (I prefer not to talk about it because people don't believe that stuff ) I think I have sometimes a deep connection to natural elements around me and I feel connected to the cycle of the moon and to some animals and I believe in communicating with angels and channeling or being a sort of vessel to beings from higher dimensions and that's where I believe I get my inspiration from. There are also sometimes orbs around me ..here on this video below I managed to record some strange phenomenon that happens sometimes...sometimes also a similar thing happens in the sky with bigger things (UFOS?)..also usually when that sort of thing happens, I am not in a boring everyday state of mind, but in a sort of trance or disconnected state of mind (but I never take drugs and never drink alcohol, instead I meditate daily, dance, practice yoga and eat vegan food amoung more extreme things that most people are not able to believe)

I believe I live between 2 dimensions:
- one boring heavy difficult dimension that seems to be the dimension people outside of me (that mostly do not meditate ) try to impose to me as "Reality", in this dimension colors are on a limited spectrum and often sad dirty and gray, there is duality all around and lot of horrible things and I can become overwhelmed by emotions like anger and sadness and pain, suffering, I witness misery, injustice, jealousy and disease and corruption and war and cruelty all around, also there is time limit and everything is impermanent , developing in me anxiety and stress.
- one other very much lighter dimension, that comes from my inner self and inner experiences and from people I feel connected to, that are a good influence and carry this deep compassion in them , usually they are people with an open wider consciousness and aware on different degrees about sentient beings and so they try to not cause pains to others around ... in that dimension the impossible becomes possible, time and space do not limit me no more, I feel eternal and invincible and colors become luminous and sounds become celestial and paranormal extraordinary things happens

here is the video:


In your opinion, what do you think that is?
Is it the microcosmos manifesting?
tiny extra terrestrials?
spirits?
angels?
a problem with my camera?
or dirt or insects?
(there were no insects around, also no fan running, and if we look those crossing my face, they seem like light of some sort, youtube compressed a bit but on the original file when we zoom a bit there seem to have rainbow colors in them)


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## PeterN (Jul 14, 2021)

Eden Reign said:


> I saw several times UFOS and other paranormal things (I prefer not to talk about it because people don't believe that stuff ) I think I have sometimes a deep connection to natural elements around me and I feel connected to the cycle of the moon and to some animals and I believe in communicating with angels and channeling or being a sort of vessel to beings from higher dimensions and that's where I believe I get my inspiration from. There are also sometimes orbs around me ..here on this video below I managed to record some strange phenomenon that happens sometimes...sometimes also a similar thing happens in the sky with bigger things (UFOS?)..also usually when that sort of thing happens, I am not in a boring everyday state of mind, but in a sort of trance or disconnected state of mind (but I never take drugs and never drink alcohol, instead I meditate daily, dance, practice yoga and eat vegan food amoung more extreme things that most people are not able to believe)
> 
> I believe I live between 2 dimensions:
> - one boring heavy difficult dimension that seems to be the dimension people outside of me (that mostly do not meditate ) try to impose to me as "Reality", in this dimension colors are on a limited spectrum and often sad dirty and gray, there is duality all around and lot of horrible things and I can become overwhelmed by emotions like anger and sadness and pain, suffering, I witness misery, injustice, jealousy and disease and corruption and war and cruelty all around, also there is time limit and everything is unpermanent developing in me anxiety and stress.
> ...




Cool. Pollen?

Hey, I have a friend in Greece, who said she experienced something similar, and after meditation. About two months ago she told me this. She is into Buddhism and meditation, (not seriously into Buddhism, I mean, she wouldnt even know what Pali or Tripitaka is), but she is into psychic stuff and meditation. She said small stars flew around her after meditation, and that her friends could witness this. I started to check this up for her, with my connections to Buddhists, and there was a Sanskrit/Pali word for a phenomenon like this, and it had manifested itself with people deep into meditation. So, I decided to contact some nuns in Sagaing (Myanmar) but my friend there said, theres a military checkpoint outside his house, and nuns in Sagaing cant leave the area, (virus and military coup), so I could never get the connection to Sagaing nunnery. (These people are serious about meditation). I tried another connection, a family with relation to former kings of Tibet, but no reply from there. Anyway, Im waiting for a reply one day from Buddhism connections, and I can let you know what they reply then. It might take a while, pandemics and military coups have a tendency to last some time.


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## Eden Reign (Jul 14, 2021)

PeterN said:


> Cool. Pollen?
> 
> Hey, I have a friend in Greece, who said she experienced something similar, and after meditation. About two months ago she told me this. She is into Buddhism and meditation, (not seriously into Buddhism, I mean, she wouldnt even know what Pali or Tripitaka is), but she is into psychic stuff and meditation. She said small stars flew around her after meditation, and that her friends could witness this. I started to check this up for her, with my connections to Buddhists, and there was a Sanskrit/Pali word for a phenomenon like this, and it had manifested itself with people deep into meditation. So, I decided to contact some nuns in Sagaing (Myanmar) but my friend there said, theres a military checkpoint outside his house, and nuns in Sagaing cant leave the area, (virus and military coup), so I could never get the connection to Sagaing nunnery. (These people are serious about meditation). I tried another connection, a family with relation to former kings of Tibet, but no reply from there. Anyway, Im waiting for a reply one day from Buddhism connections, and I can let you know what they reply then. It might take a while, pandemics and military coups have a tendency to last some time.


very interesting ! well it seems to me that buddhist teachings are so huge and deep that not everyone know the same things. It seems there are different paths to liberation to me, I discovered the Diamond sutra recently and it's already so intense and wide but I know not all buddhist branches accept it.


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## CeDur (Jul 14, 2021)

I think all 'supernatural' phenomenon are driven by science we as a human just don't understand yet.

My only actual 'Supernatural' experience is using Roland digital piano sound engine :D


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## reids (Jul 14, 2021)

I've experienced the supernatural many times when I've logged onto VI-Control with another sample library hyped to no end that "is a game-changer". Just sheer madness I say.


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## cygnusdei (Jul 14, 2021)

Eden Reign said:


> buddhist teachings are so huge and deep that not everyone know the same things


It's only recently that I learned that when people talk about 'Buddha', it may refer to two different figures: Gautama Buddha (circa 5th century BC India), or Amitabha Buddha (circa 1st century AD). Although Buddhism itself does not believe in Supreme Creator God or heaven, Amitabha Buddha practically became a God as he created the Pure Land (heaven) for those who have faith in him - hence the basis of Pure Land Buddhism adhered to in most East Asian cultures. It's all very fascinating.


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## Gerbil (Jul 14, 2021)

Phil81 said:


> I once saw my computer turn itself on after shutting it down. I ran away immediately. Little did I know it was a setting issue.


Maybe it was the...Norton Ghost!


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## mscp (Jul 14, 2021)

Gerbil said:


> Maybe it was the...Norton Ghost!


What is Norton?


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## Gerbil (Jul 14, 2021)

Phil81 said:


> What is Norton?


Norton Ghost was cloning software that was known to cause BSODs.


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## mscp (Jul 14, 2021)

Gerbil said:


> Norton Ghost was cloning software that was known to cause BSODs.



Ah. Until recently I used to be a Mac-only user. Here we don't call BSODs but BOM (Beachball Of Mockery).


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## dzilizzi (Jul 14, 2021)

Phil81 said:


> Beachball Of Mockery


I love that term. I have definitely seen it mock me. "Ha ha ha you don't know how to control/alt/delete me in Mac language!!!!"


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## SteveC (Jul 14, 2021)

Watched every episode...of course only because of my girlfriend


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## CATDAD (Jul 14, 2021)

After having the Nth experience where I turn a dial on a mixing plugin and hear a difference for awhile before I realize it was bypassed the whole time, I no longer believe much of anything I experience!

We're born, live, and die by approximation.


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## Rob (Jul 14, 2021)

One thing happened to me, when I was 28, that's still impressed in my mind... my mom was in hospital for a not too serious thing, and expected to be back home in a couple days. On my way to the station, to catch a train that would take me to my job, I went to see her. We talked for a while, then I stood up saying it was time for me to go, and she took my hand, and won't let it go. She kept looking at me with a strange expression, for what to me seemed like an eternity. I was a bit embarassed, kept saying mom I have to go, I'll lose my train, but she looked at me holding my hand, until she let me go, with a smile. Next morning she was dead... believe she knew she was about to die, don't know how.


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## PeterN (Jul 14, 2021)

I tried to prove once the "supernatural" - this is years back, but something started happening, which I think, was related to brain magnetic. waves. I actually thought it was natural, but there was no explanation to be found when I searched. What the hell? I was looking for natural explanation, but couldnt come across one, and it started to get mysterious.

So, to cut a long story short, it was impossible to prove it. Contacted local sceptics, signed up for their 10.000 EUR price, nothing happened, contacted medical professionals, etc. but got no reply in country where I was. Also, it felt risky, could I be diagnosed as lunatic? Or if I prove it, will they tear me apart? Dealing with the Sceptics was like a witch contacting Catholic church in middle ages. Finally, in UK (where I was not) there was some interest, and at some point, I was in email with Rupert Sheldrake. This guy is a star now. But he addressed me to someone called, Playfair, who then addressed me to "Spontaneous Phenomena Committee of the Society for Psychical Research", who simply registered the phenomena as written text.

The day they emailed me, I woke up to a "bling" sound from email, as auditory hallucination, so they sent it with telepathy too. Heh.

I checked my emails now, 17 years later, I mean, to some degree I can understand this now in retrospective, especially in dealing with UK. I was young guy then and my texts does not look very professional (especially to London mentality).

Anyway, in conclusion, *you cannot even prove the supernatural, even if you have it right in front of you*.

Try it - you wont succeed, and maybe even end up locked up somewhere.


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## bill5 (Jul 14, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> The stress of college will do that to ya!


Or the drugs.


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## bill5 (Jul 14, 2021)

Phil81 said:


> What is Norton?


Norton was (back in the ancient days of PCing) a highly-regarded PC guru who came up with one of the earlier anti-virus programs. Respectable at first, it gradually became terrible.


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## wilifordmusic (Jul 14, 2021)

supernatural experience = day after a six pack of Little Kings and a bag of "Sliders".


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## cygnusdei (Jul 14, 2021)

SteveC said:


> Watched every episode...of course only because of my girlfriend


I stopped watching after season 9, it seemed like they ran out of ideas


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## SteveC (Jul 14, 2021)

cygnusdei said:


> I stopped watching after season 9, it seemed like they ran out of ideas


Absolutely. But 12, 13, 14 and 15 are better.


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## PeterN (Jul 15, 2021)

Prayer is supernatural.

*Is nobody believing in Power of Prayer?*


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## Hannes_F (Jul 15, 2021)

For those 0.1 % who earnestly seek for fully rational explanations that still go beyond gross materialism and reductionism the Hylozoic world view might be of help. 

Hyle: Matter or stuff.
Zoon: A living being.

Hylozoics: Living matter, or spiritual materialism.

It must be added that our usual perception of "matter" is very limited. There exist other kinds of matter than our usual kind. Some of them we subjectively perceive as emotions, some as thoughts, but there are still more.

So called "supernatural" events are either based on imagination, fantasy, erroneous sense perceptions - or on short occurrences when such material expressions of consciousness as usually are subjective are perceived in a more objective way for a short moment.

One of the known proponents of Hylozoics or Hylozoism in antiquity was Pythagoras who spoke of the Monads as the spiritual atoms (primordial matter) of the cosmos, expressing themselves through a matter aspect, a consciousness aspect and a dynamical aspect.





__





The Official Website of the Henry T. Laurency Publishing Foundation


Hylozoics, esoteric knowledge for our time. Pythagoras' secret teaching.



laurency.com





For the other 99.9 %: Nothing to see there, don't waste your time in this life. It is better to be a little too skeptical than to be too credulous.


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## Eckoes (Aug 13, 2021)

Super, meaning above or beyond 

Natural, meaning nature, naturally.

So if the supernatural exists, we would not be able to experience it.

If you can experience it, it is not ‘above or beyond’ nature, but a part of it.


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## bill5 (Aug 13, 2021)




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## JonS (Aug 13, 2021)

cygnusdei said:


> Like the title says, I'm curious to hear your personal, first-person experience. As for me, I can't say that I have, although I want to keep an open mind. If spirits etc. exist, they must operate on a wavelength/plane removed from mine, that I lack the ability to sense them.


I met God, Christ and Angels a long time ago. How to explain this to anyone else is basically impossible. Unless this happened to you, it would be impossible for you to understand anything I say.


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## Eden Reign (Aug 14, 2021)

This man is casting demons out of people... I just discovered this Channel..I truly believe this is real


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## Eden Reign (Aug 14, 2021)




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## PeterN (Aug 14, 2021)

Eden Reign said:


> This man is casting demons out of people... I just discovered this Channel..I truly believe this is real



This common in Islamic countries too. Throw in *Djinn excorcism* in youtube. The imams who do this are pretty cool, like its everyday stuff. Especially Malaysia. People call these excorcists and they go and "fix things" like fixing a electricity wire, and are humble about it.

Burma is full of spirits, like FULL, theres a spirit festival, Nat Pwe, you have to see it to believe it.


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## Martin S (Aug 14, 2021)

Why is it, when humans talk about ghosts, it’s ALWAYS about human ghosts?? If there really was such a thing as ghosts, where are all the cow ghosts, dog ghosts, cat ghosts, caterpillar ghosts, monkey ghosts, seagull ghosts, etc?? And furthermore…IF there were ghosts, there would be one for every living creature that EVER existed on the planet. Yet, ghosts somehow always appear to be of the ‘human kind’… My bullshit-meter is peaking feverishly whenever I hear about such things..

This anthropomorphic worldview will be the downfall of humans.

Dear Humans,
Your problem is obvious…






Watch ‘Cosmos - A Spacetime Odyssey’ - and have your mind blown…

I really miss Carl Sagan..


Question authority. No idea is true just because someone says so, including me.
Think for yourself. Question yourself. Don’t believe anything just because you want to. Believing something doesn’t make it so.
Test ideas by the evidence gained from observation and experiment. If a favorite idea fails a well-designed test, it’s wrong. Get over it.
Follow the evidence wherever it leads. If you have no evidence, reserve judgment.
Remember: you could be wrong. Even the best scientists have been wrong about some things. Newton, Einstein, and every other great scientist in history — they all made mistakes. Of course they did. They were human. 
Science is a way to keep from fooling ourselves, and each other.
There will, naturally, be people who pick and choose from this list to simply further their personal agenda. These things cannot be taken in isolation. Either you accept, embrace, and follow them all, or you’re doing it wrong. Humility must go hand in hand with discovery. No one has all the answers. Be a searcher. Learn, grow, and explore.

*The Pale Blue Dot - Earth (Carl Sagan)*
_That’s here. That’s home. That’s us. On it, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever lived, lived out their lives. The aggregate of all our joys and sufferings, thousands of confident religions, ideologies and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilizations, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every hopeful child, every mother and father, every inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every superstar, every supreme leader, every saint and sinner in the history of our species, lived there on a mote of dust, suspended in a sunbeam.

The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that in glory and in triumph they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of the dot on scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner of the dot. How frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds. Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the universe, are challenged by this point of pale light.

Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity – in all this vastness – there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves. It is up to us. It’s been said that astronomy is a humbling, and I might add, a character-building experience. To my mind, there is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly and compassionately with one another and to preserve and cherish that pale blue dot, the only home we’ve ever known._


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## Eden Reign (Aug 14, 2021)

to me a ghost is an entity or negative energy attached to a certain negative human emotion that used to be human once , in buddhism I learned they call this "starving ghosts" , if I understand right it's Humans who did not liberated from desires and negative feelings during their Human's existence and so when they die, they die attached to those wrongs views which can be desire for success, lust, anger , resentment, fear, sadness, depression, laziness, selfishness , addictions..sometimes we can live our current life like a ghost as well ( because they can attach to us when we are weak and easy to manipulate so they can feed from our lack of self control, for instance if we become addicted to alcohol, a starving alcoholic ghost will attach to us like a parasite to get the pleasure from alcohol it starves from) ..when we have those destructive emotions instead of being filled with love and compassion ..maybe the starving ghosts in Buddhism are the Demons in Christianity or Djinns in Islam. I am not sure animals can become ghosts because animals are pure in nature and do not get attached to evil emotions like humans do. Animals live the present moment.


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## Martin S (Aug 14, 2021)

Eden Reign said:


> to me a ghost is an entity or negative energy attached to a certain negative human emotion that used to be human once , in buddhism I learned they call this "starving ghosts" , if I understand right it's Humans who did not liberated from desires and negative feelings during their Human's existence and so when they die, they die attached to those wrongs views which can be desire for success, lust, anger , fear, sadness, depression, addictions..sometimes we can live our current life like a ghost as well ..when we have those destructive emotions instead of being filled with love and compassion ..maybe the starving ghosts in Buddhism are the Demons in Christianity or Djinns in Islam. I am not sure animals can become ghosts become animals are pure in nature and do not get attached to evil emotions like humans do. Animals live the present moment.


Humans are animals, too… (see my avatar)

Hence my remark about anthropomorphism… And ”_Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the universe”_


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## Eden Reign (Aug 14, 2021)

Martin S said:


> Humans are animals, too… (see my avatar)
> 
> Hence my remark about anthropomorphism… And ”_Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the universe”_


that's a point of view  I don't think humans are animals, we share sentience with animals which makes humans able to see animals can feel too, but many things separate us from animals. Humans seem both like an unnatural genetically modified animal specie or a Divine creature with God consciousness that can expand in its core, depending beliefs and what people chose to develop and focus on within oneself ect


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## mikeh-375 (Aug 14, 2021)

Eden Reign said:


> that's a point of view  I don't think humans are animals, we share sentience with animals which makes humans able to see animals can feel too, but many things separate us from animals.


...and many things unite us....

https://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/pe...ding-our-past/dna-comparing-humans-and-chimps


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## Martin S (Aug 14, 2021)

Humans are definitely animals, it’s a proven scientific fact, whether you believe it or not. We’re all made of the same stuff - humans and animals alike, even plants and rocks. So why is it, that humans think we’re different, than anything else that surrounds us? I call it human arrogance…to think our species is the only one capable of thinking, feeling, etc…


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## shponglefan (Aug 14, 2021)

Eden Reign said:


> Humans seem both like an unnatural genetically modified


Strictly speaking from a genetics point-of-view, there isn't anything in the human genome that appears to be the result of unnatural modifications. Or to put it another way, there are no genetic discontinuities relative to the human lineage that are unexpected or appear otherwise unusual relative to other species lineages.


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## Eden Reign (Aug 14, 2021)

mikeh-375 said:


> ...and many things unite us....
> 
> https://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/pe...ding-our-past/dna-comparing-humans-and-chimps





shponglefan said:


> Strictly speaking from a genetics point-of-view, there isn't anything in the human genome that appears to be the result of unnatural modifications. Or to put it another way, there are no genetic discontinuities relative to the human lineage that are unexpected or appear otherwise unusual relative to other species lineages.


now with the vaccine it's not anymore gonna be the case  Humans are starting to modify their genetics..and they also modify their appearance with plastic surgery ..that's what I meant when telling they look like an artificial unatural animal specie ..animals don't do plastic surgery and don't create cities to live separated from nature..that's what I also meant when saying humans are an artificial animal


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## shponglefan (Aug 14, 2021)

Eden Reign said:


> now with the vaccine it's not anymore gonna be the case  Humans are starting to modify their genetics..and they also modify their appearance with plastic surgery ..that's what I meant when telling they look like an artificial unatural animal specie ..animals don't do plastic surgery and don't create cities to live separated from nature..that's what I also meant when saying humans are an artificial animal


FWIW, lots of species construct dwellings and modify their environments for their own survival and use. We're definitely not unique in that regard.


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## Eden Reign (Aug 14, 2021)

Martin S said:


> Humans are definitely animals, it’s a proven scientific fact, whether you believe it or not. We’re all made of the same stuff - humans and animals alike, even plants and rocks. So why is it, that humans think we’re different, than anything else that surrounds us? I call it human arrogance…to think our species is the only one capable of thinking, feeling, etc…


I personally don't think animals are not capable of thinking and feeling, that's why I am vegan , which is also something that separates me from animals, because Humans can elevate themselves from basic animal instincts and choose to be something different that is believed to not be natural...they can also have a philosophy and go against the mainstream if they think it's wrong, they have notion of good and evil. It seems to me that animals are too pure to be evil, while humans can be evil and it is also something that separates us from animals.


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## EpicMusicGuy (Aug 14, 2021)

Most supernatural event you could think of can not compare to the universe just appearing from nothing.
I mean, try and imagine nothing. You can't. 
No matter if you believe in a creator or the big bang and that we are all stardust. That's absolutely mindblowing. The supernatural examples mentioned in this thread pales in comparison to the scope of it.


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## Eden Reign (Aug 14, 2021)

shponglefan said:


> FWIW, lots of species construct dwellings and modify their environments for their own survival and use. We're definitely not unique in that regard.


well that's what I meant, it still looks something natural in a natural environnement, while us, we do not live in a natural environnement, we want to destroy control everything, we are power greedy , we modify our genetics, body appearance, natural elements..animals they don't do more than what they need to survive. they don't have evil power greedy emotions like humans.


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## shponglefan (Aug 14, 2021)

Eden Reign said:


> well that's what I meant, it still looks something natural in a natural environnement, while us, we do not live in a natural environnement, we want to destroy control everything, we are power greedy , we modify our genetics, body appearance, natural elements..animals they don't do more than what they need to survive. they don't have evil power greedy emotions like humans.



What is a "natural environment" though? For example, if a person builds a house from timber, is that any more unnatural than a bird building a nest from sticks or a beaver building a lodge from logs?

And certainly the reason for building such structures (protection from the elements) doesn't truly differ in these cases. So where do we draw the line?

Insofar as greed or destructiveness or other behaviors, you can generally find examples in other animal species that arguably mirror that. Greed is especially evident across species when it comes to competing for food resources.

What I've found studying biology is that there isn't anything truly unique to the human species in that regard. It's usually more an issue of the relative degree to which such things occurs.


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## Eden Reign (Aug 14, 2021)

shponglefan said:


> What is a "natural environment" though? For example, if a person builds a house from timber, is that any more unnatural than a bird building a nest from sticks or a beaver building a lodge from logs?
> 
> And certainly the reason for building such structures (protection from the elements) doesn't truly differ in these cases. So where do we draw the line?
> 
> ...


but can animals also decide to go on strike or choose a different path if they believe that what their tribe or relatives are doing isn't right? I don't have an animal consciousness so I don't have the answer to this, I think animals are very mysterious and from the animals interactions I had with, they do not seem really interested by philosophy or debating good and evil stuff even though they have their own personality traits and preferences .


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## Romy Schmidt (Aug 14, 2021)

cygnusdei said:


> Like the title says, I'm curious to hear your personal, first-person experience. As for me, I can't say that I have, although I want to keep an open mind. If spirits etc. exist, they must operate on a wavelength/plane removed from mine, that I lack the ability to sense them.


Yes, I have had a strong first-person experience. I owned a excellent Pleyel piano. Then I divorced. And suddenly it wasn't mine anymore! I was flabbergasted.


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## bill5 (Aug 14, 2021)

Martin S said:


> Why is it, when humans talk about ghosts, it’s ALWAYS about human ghosts?? If there really was such a thing as ghosts, where are all the cow ghosts, dog ghosts, cat ghosts, caterpillar ghosts, monkey ghosts, seagull ghosts, etc?? And furthermore…IF there were ghosts, there would be one for every living creature that EVER existed on the planet. Yet, ghosts somehow always appear to be of the ‘human kind’… My bullshit-meter is peaking feverishly whenever I hear about such things..


So...you've never seen or heard of cow ghosts or dog ghosts, therefore no supernatural or afterlife. Curious reasoning.



> This anthropomorphic worldview will be the downfall of humans.


I don't think that word means what you seem to think it means.



> Dear Humans,
> Your problem is obvious…


We agree on that much - though not in the same way.



> Question authority. No idea is true just because someone says so, including me.
> Think for yourself. Question yourself. Don’t believe anything just because you want to. Believing something doesn’t make it so.
> Test ideas by the evidence gained from observation and experiment. If a favorite idea fails a well-designed test, it’s wrong. Get over it.
> Follow the evidence wherever it leads. If you have no evidence, reserve judgment.
> ...


lol @ thinking one can scientifically test the supernatural. Science is the pursuit and application of knowledge and understanding of the natural and social world following a systematic methodology based on evidence. 

Note the word _natural_....i.e. excludes the supernatural. Trying to prove/explain the supernatural/afterlife/God/etc with science is like trying to prove the nature of light with a ruler. These things neither be proven nor disproven through science.


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## bill5 (Aug 14, 2021)

Eden Reign said:


> that's a point of view  I don't think humans are animals


Humans are by definition animals...but not JUST "animals." That's a broad classification and gross oversimplification. We are quite unique among all animals. Only we have religion, a sense of humor, self-awareness (etc etc).


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## Trash Panda (Aug 14, 2021)

What we perceive as magic and the supernatural are likely just technology and aspects of nature we do not yet understand.


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## Trash Panda (Aug 14, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Humans are by definition animals...but not JUST "animals." That's a broad classification and gross oversimplification. We are quite unique among all animals. Only we have religion, a sense of humor, self-awareness (etc etc).


That we’re aware of. For all you know, ants worship their queen as a god and dedicate their lives in service for the promise of rebirth as a god themselves.


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## Eden Reign (Aug 14, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Humans are by definition animals...but not JUST "animals." That's a broad classification and gross oversimplification. We are quite unique among all animals. Only we have religion, a sense of humor, self-awareness (etc etc).


animals also have self awareness


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## Martin S (Aug 14, 2021)

Self awareness is not unique to humans.Try google ‘Mirror test’. Neither is our sense of humor:

Cheeky monkey​Non-human primates don’t just laugh – there is evidence they can crack their own jokes. Koko, a gorilla in Woodside, California, who has learned more than 2000 words and 1000 American Sign Language signs, has been known to play with different meanings of the same word. When she was asked: “What can you think of that is hard?” the gorilla signed “rock” and “work”. She also once tied her trainer’s shoelaces together and signed “chase”.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25312-do-animals-have-a-sense-of-humour/


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## EpicMusicGuy (Aug 14, 2021)

I've had many experiences that has convinced me there is a God.


I didn't know there was a word for it before recently.
But what Jordan Peterson mentions here.
Synchronicity.
It has happened to an extend to me that I can't just pass it of as coincidences


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## PeterN (Aug 14, 2021)

EpicMusicGuy said:


> I've had many experiences that has convinced me there is a God.
> 
> 
> I didn't know there was a word for it before recently.
> ...



*Synchronicity* is Jungian concept. Havent checked that vid, but its not Jordans invention. Carl Jung went deep into this with myths and religions. Somewhere along the line, he came up with that term; Synchronicity. Very interesting guy anyway. Jordan P is great guy too.


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## dzilizzi (Aug 14, 2021)

Eden Reign said:


> This man is casting demons out of people... I just discovered this Channel..I truly believe this is real



He is using hypnosis techniques that I learned years ago. And? It might work on some, as you can use hypnosis to change behaviors and thoughts. But others are not hypnotizable, so they will keep their "demons"


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## Quasar (Aug 14, 2021)

I have never not experienced the supernatural. Nature itself is the creation of that which is beyond nature.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Aug 14, 2021)

EpicMusicGuy said:


> I've had many experiences that has convinced me there is a God.
> 
> 
> I didn't know there was a word for it before recently.
> ...



There you go, Jordan Peterson convinced you that there's a god. Now, can I interest you in my machine that controls the weather?


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## d.healey (Aug 14, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Trying to prove/explain the supernatural/afterlife/God/etc with science


The scientific method generally tries to disprove things rather than prove them. For most things, espeically supernatural things, the burder of proof is on the person making the claim - You say Santa is/isn't real, prove it I say!

You can't disprove a negative so the scientific method isn't very applicable for these kind of claims. All we can do is look at the evidence provided to support the claim and try and disprove that.


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## EpicMusicGuy (Aug 14, 2021)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> There you go, Jordan Peterson convinced you that there's a god. Now, can I interest you in my machine that controls the weather?


Nope, and that's not at all what I said.
He just gave me a word to describe the thing that DID convince me there was a God.
Your mocking attitude towards me is not really appreciated tbh.
The video I shared and subject I brought up was related to what the thread was asking about.


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## PeterN (Aug 14, 2021)

EpicMusicGuy said:


> Nope, and that's not at all what I said.
> He just gave me a word to describe the thing that DID convince me there was a God.
> Your mocking attitude towards me is not really appreciated tbh.
> The video I shared and subject I brought up was related to what the thread was asking about.



Just throw it in the *double*. Your experiences about _coincidences_ are probably very interesting.

These days its more rebellious to be pro Christianity than anti. Black Sabbath did the anti thing, like in the 70s. Venom in the 80s. Since that its been pretty cringe. Even Dave Mustaine is praying now.


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## shponglefan (Aug 14, 2021)

Eden Reign said:


> now with the vaccine it's not anymore gonna be the case  Humans are starting to modify their genetics..


Missed this earlier, but just to note that the mRNA vaccines are *not* designed to modify human DNA.

Rather, the mRNA is utilized to get human cells to produce spike proteins (the kind of used by the coronavirus) to provoke an immune response and generation of antibodies. This process does not involve the modification of human DNA.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Aug 14, 2021)

PeterN said:


> Just throw it in the *double*. Your experiences about _coincidences_ are probably very interesting.
> 
> These days its more rebellious to be pro Christianity than anti. Black Sabbath did the anti thing, like in the 70s. Venom in the 80s. Since that its been pretty cringe. Even Dave Mustaine is praying now.


No it's not. Religious people are just as reactionary, bigotted and narrow minded as they've always been. Actually, the trend is currently clearly favoring the more authoritarian elements of faith everywhere you look. Either way, I don't know how much it is a question of rebelliousness as opposed to being one of faculty of reason.

Anyways, Mustaine was always religious. "_What do you mean, I don't believe in God? Talk to him every day._"

Of course, he's also a recovering addict and a right wing whacko. Like Peterson.


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## EpicMusicGuy (Aug 14, 2021)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> No it's not. Religious people are just as reactionary, bigotted and narrow minded as they've always been. Actually, the trend is currently clearly favoring the more authoritarian elements of faith everywhere you look. Either way, I don't know how much it is a question of rebelliousness as opposed to being one of faculty of reason.
> 
> Anyways, Mustaine was always religious. "_What do you mean, I don't believe in God? Talk to him every day._"
> 
> Of course, he's also a recovering addict and a right wing whacko. Like Peterson.


Judging billions of people as "reactionary, bigotted and narrow minded"?

That's very reactionary, bigotted and narrow minded of you.
Anyway not going to play this left/right game with you.
I'm not from the tribalist states of America


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## PeterN (Aug 14, 2021)

EpicMusicGuy said:


> Judging billions of people as "reactionary, bigotted and narrow minded"?
> 
> That's very reactionary, bigotted and narrow minded of you.
> Anyway not going to play this left/right game with you.
> I'm not from the tribalist states of America


Made me think about Himalayas, probably not a single person not religious - well yes, with a few cadres as exceptions. But thinking from the Naxi to the Bai, from Mustang valley to Leh. So its *bigots.*

Better leave it here.

---

Anyways... to Jimmy, personally, theres no authoritanism coming from any religion, depends on location of course, but the most _evident authoritanism_, is coming from a completely other direction. Probably no need to say that loud. Authoritarian elements. Heh! Better not laugh too loud, the phone will record it.


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## bill5 (Aug 14, 2021)

d.healey said:


> The scientific method generally tries to disprove things rather than prove them.


Incorrect. The scientific method presents a hypothesis and tests it to see if it is true or not. It is not intended to inherently prove or disprove...only to seek the truth, which normally involves both. 



> For most things, espeically supernatural things, the burder of proof is on the person making the claim - You say Santa is/isn't real, prove it I say!


You somehow missed my initial point: science - by definition - cannot prove or disprove things beyond this universe/natural world. Asking or expecting it to do so is ludicrous. 



> You can't disprove a negative


Also incorrect. Just not directly. For example, I can disprove 2+2 does not = 5, but I do so by proving 2+2=4.


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## bill5 (Aug 14, 2021)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> No it's not. Religious people are just as reactionary, bigotted and narrow minded as they've always been.


Pot, meet kettle. 

What an asinine statement. I could easily counter with how that's far more the norm with atheists...but that's my online experience only; happily I know numerous atheists in person and they are nothing like that. They are far more intelligent and rational, having their beliefs but not looking their nose down at people with differing opinions or buying into such ridiculous and archaic stereotypes. 

It's sad that this thread has digressed so rapidly, but I guess that's to be expected, given the subject matter and the brilliance that is our society today. Exiting the thread, have fun


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Aug 15, 2021)

EpicMusicGuy said:


> Judging billions of people as "reactionary, bigotted and narrow minded"?
> 
> That's very reactionary, bigotted and narrow minded of you.
> Anyway not going to play this left/right game with you.
> I'm not from the tribalist states of America


I'm not from the US either. I don't really care about politics - religious criticism to me is mainly interesting from a purely philosophical perspective and in terms of it being a cultural practice.

Anyways, I would _absolutely_ say that billions of people are reactionary, bigotted and narrow minded. They don't even need religion for that. I would even go as far as to say that billions of people are absolutely stupid and don't know what they're really doing or thinking 85% of the time. Meaning, the argumentum ad populum is not really a strong argument.


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## mikeh-375 (Aug 15, 2021)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I'm not from the US either. I don't really care about politics......................


remember Jimmy that although you might not be into politics, politics is into you....


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## Michael Antrum (Aug 15, 2021)

My father owned a distribution company in the North of England in the 70's. At one point Ouja boards became quite popular, and as one of the product lines he supplied was toys and games (for that was how they were categorised back then) he ordered in a vast quantity to keep up with the demand.

When the stock came in, they broke one out of the stock to check to quality, and he, my mother, and a couple of girls in accounts set it up and decided to have a go.

He's never been totally clear about what exactly happened next, though I understand the basics, but the events that followed absolutely terrified him and everyone else involved. I understand what happened was to do with my older brother, who only lived a matter of hours, and died in my mother's arms.

It upset him to such an extent that he packed the whole massive order up, and shipped it back out of the country. He took thumping loss (an anathema to a Yorkshireman) on the re-stocking fee, and upset a lot of his customers who had been waiting desperately for stock as they had become something of a fad. He called everyone single one of these customers, and pleaded with them not to stock these things for their own good, and begged them not to buy them elsewhere. He was very firm about it. I believe quite a few of his customers took his advice.

He told me that there was no way he was going to a party to inflicting what he had experienced on anyone else.

My old man has never been a nervous type, a Merchant Navy boxing champ, and all around typical no bullshit Yorkshireman who loved his cricket and rugby.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Aug 15, 2021)

mikeh-375 said:


> remember Jimmy that although you might not be into politics, politics is into you....


Oh yeah ... with drugs, you can at least say no!


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## d.healey (Aug 15, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Incorrect. The scientific method presents a hypothesis and tests it to see if it is true or not. It is not intended to inherently prove or disprove...only to seek the truth, which normally involves both.
> 
> 
> You somehow missed my initial point: science - by definition - cannot prove or disprove things beyond this universe/natural world. Asking or expecting it to do so is ludicrous.
> ...


I thought I was backing up your argument


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## PeterN (Aug 17, 2021)

Heres a short interesting perspective from India. Personally - seen from this perspective - I can easily recognise that *4th stage,* Divya Manas.


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## Mike Fox (Aug 18, 2021)

I think it’s completely ridiculous to deny any possibility that something exists outside of our own 5 primary senses, or that there aren’t infinite dimensions, or that there isn’t life on other planets. To be unsure is understandable, but to deny the possibility? That’s a type of conviction I could never understand.

I suppose ignorance is bliss for some. And it’s true, because i personally know people who take comfort in not even considering what may be beyond our own knowledge and comprehension.

“I have been at work for some time building an apparatus to see if it is possible for personalities which have left this earth to communicate with us.” - Thomas Edison

Fascinating.


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## ryans (Aug 18, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> I think it’s completely ridiculous to deny any possibility that something exists outside of our own 5 primary senses, or that there aren’t infinite dimensions, or that there isn’t life on other planets. To be unsure is understandable, but to deny the possibility?


From a purely scientific perspective I will always seek evidence for the existence of anything.

But to deny the possibility of something, of anything is completely unscientific.


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## Trash Panda (Aug 19, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> I think it’s completely ridiculous to deny any possibility that something exists outside of our own 5 primary senses, or that there aren’t infinite dimensions, or that there isn’t life on other planets. To be unsure is understandable, but to deny the possibility? That’s a type of conviction I could never understand.
> 
> I suppose ignorance is bliss for some. And it’s true, because i personally know people who take comfort in not even considering what may be beyond our own knowledge and comprehension.
> 
> ...


Soft Agnosticism _may_ be the most logical world view.


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## Studio E (Aug 19, 2021)

Spitfire and Heavyocity would probably tell you that my credit card has supernatural powers.

On a side note, my composing partner is very much into all kinds of things that I would write-off as illogical, silly, superstition, but I also value her so much as an artist and compassionate human, that I can't help but be intrigued and lend an ear to her reasoning. At the end of the day, I don't believe anyone really knows what the hell we don't know. I am very much grounded in the realm of atheism, but with an open mind to the realization of our own ignorance as a species. The greatest minds of today are speaking of multi-dimensional multi-verses and all kinds of other things that make me wonder if we aren't also in touch with all sorts of things which we just don't understand. Rather than completely squelshing the idea of supernatural occurrences, I stay open to the idea that I certainly don't know it all. As long as people can still get behind basic science as a reasoning tool, to guide us through what we DO know to be real, I am fine with them also believing that they are in touch with something that transcends our current understanding of existence.


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## dzilizzi (Aug 19, 2021)

Studio E said:


> Spitfire and Heavyocity would probably tell you that my credit card has supernatural powers.
> 
> On a side note, my composing partner is very much into all kinds of things that I would write-off as illogical, silly, superstition, but I also value her so much as an artist and compassionate human, that I can't help but be intrigued and lend an ear to her reasoning. At the end of the day, I don't believe anyone really knows what the hell we don't know. I am very much grounded in the realm of atheism, but with an open mind to the realization of our own ignorance as a species. The greatest minds of today are speaking of multi-dimensional multi-verses and all kinds of other things that make me wonder if we aren't also in touch with all sorts of things which we just don't understand. Rather than completely squelshing the idea of supernatural occurrences, I stay open to the idea that I certainly don't know it all. As long as people can still get behind basic science as a reasoning tool, to guide us through what we DO know to be real, I am fine with them also believing that they are in touch with something that transcends our current understanding of existence.


This is the thing. Our science is currently only 3 dimensional. There could be parallel universes that bump into our reality and cause these paranormal things. Someday our science may catch up. A lot of the "paranormal" stuff in the middle ages has been found to have a scientific explanation now. Scientists also perceive the existence of things like quarks, which they can't see, but a provable by their effect on other things. 

I was watching a show on the universe and it was interesting how galaxies are all flat. Space isn't flat. Yes, a spin would technically make most things go out on the same level, but considering all the shooting pieces coming out of things like black holes and star explosions, it shouldn't be as flat as it is. So is the flatness caused by something we can't see with our 3 dimensional eyes and equipment? Are there layers of invisible universes stacked upon each other? 

And yes, I read way too much science fiction.....


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## Agnus Dei (Aug 19, 2021)

If you are interested in the (negative) Supernatural, it begins and ends with Fr. Vincent Lampert.
Now you know.


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