# Mockup of The Starkiller by JW - CSS (Now with Spitfire Appassionata)



## studioj (Dec 18, 2020)

This post from @sIR dORT : https://vi-control.net/community/threads/hws-divisi-test.102464/
inspired me to try a mockup of this stunning string cue from John Williams. All CSS, with a single CSSS violin on the violin1 part for a little detail. some EQ and color flavors from Gulfoss and VSL Exciter. Feedback welcome thank you


----------



## Pixelpoet1985 (Dec 20, 2020)

I really like it. Never thought that CSS could sound so bright. I definitely prefer this sound to the "standard" CSS one. Is this because of Gulfoss EQ?


----------



## studioj (Dec 20, 2020)

Thank you! I tried only the Gulfoss first, but couldn’t quite get to where I wanted so I added the VSL exciter in addition. I think most of the heavy lifting here is being done by the Exciter. I also used fabfilter pro MB to curb some added highs when the range gets high and loud. I chose to feature close and room mics with just a touch of main vs using the standard mix in CSS. Reverb is UAD 480L.


----------



## NoamL (Dec 20, 2020)

Really good stuff Judson. Interesting approach with the mics as well - might try that too.

The only feedback I have is the staircase gesture at 0:42-0:47 could be more rhythmically exact (even "inside" the overall rubato). But that's a small quibble!!


----------



## studioj (Dec 20, 2020)

NoamL said:


> Really good stuff Judson. Interesting approach with the mics as well - might try that too.
> 
> The only feedback I have is the staircase gesture at 0:42-0:47 could be more rhythmically exact (even "inside" the overall rubato). But that's a small quibble!!


Thank you! I struggled with that bit, getting it voiced properly, too... and repetitive rhythms are tricky with CSS advanced legato and the delay incurred, which of course is the trade off for the realism. Thank you for the feedback, very helpful!


----------



## Pixelpoet1985 (Dec 20, 2020)

Thanks for the info. Very interesting the usage of the VSL Exciter. Which settings? 

As Shawn Murphy usually uses only the decca tree (and some spots/close mikes) it really makes sense that you chose these microphone positions. I compared your mockup to the original soundtrack, and, with this brighter sound, it's like the little brother of MGM. 

Again, I really like this mockup and, for me, it sounds better than the original. Of course, the detail comes from the smaller section sizes. I had never really cared about CSS beforce, this changed my mind.


----------



## studioj (Dec 20, 2020)

wow thx so much! So much of this comes from JW's expert orchestration / writing of course... the other side would be just getting really [email protected]#ing detailed with dynamics and ALL the functionality that CSS has to offer - vibrato control, 3 different legato speeds (and the adjustments necessary to compensate)... and lastly, yes not being afraid to eq the hell out of it. This lib does sound good without too much EQ, but definitely doesn't have that Star Wars strings sound, which is what I was after. Here is a screen shot of the Exciter:






oh also, i added a touch of Cinesamples 'Room Tone' patch ... perhaps that helps the MGM vibe you are picking up on!! ha


----------



## Pixelpoet1985 (Dec 20, 2020)

Would you mind sharing the same mockup without processing? Really interesting to hear the comparison.


----------



## studioj (Dec 20, 2020)

Sure! I kept the master bus processing on though, which includes UAD Shadow Hills comp, studer tape, and FF ProL2 for maximizing. I suppose the Studer is also adding a bit of color, softening the highs from the exciter and gulfoss a bit in the original print. Message me if you'd like to have the NO EQ version.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985 (Dec 20, 2020)

studioj said:


> oh also, i added a touch of Cinesamples 'Room Tone' patch ... perhaps that helps the MGM vibe you are picking up on!! ha



Ha  Maybe, but Trackdown is also a good scoring stage. Don‘t know if CSS has processing going on for this darker, warmer tone, or if this is the real sound when recording there.

I love the Sony sound. And as Force Awakens was recorded there, it was a good idea to use the room tone, too, and it comes very close, in my opinion. I‘m not happy with Cinestrings, CSS definitely on my wishlist now.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna (Dec 20, 2020)

Fantastic work!


----------



## studioj (Dec 20, 2020)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Fantastic work!


Thank you!


----------



## Vladimir Bulaev (Dec 23, 2020)

Excellent Mock up! It would be interesting to compare the NO EQ version.


----------



## Russell Anderson (Jan 3, 2021)

Is Vienna's exciter uniquely qualified for this task, or are other exciter plugins functional as well, or has anyone tested them side-by-side? Considering what an exciter does, I don't suppose Vienna's should be the only option (then again, each plugin has its own characteristics), but I must say this is the one of the more impressive sounds I've heard from CSS from both standpoints of midi and mixing, so well done.

I own neither CSS nor excitation plugins, just your run of the mill distortions and saturations and waveshapers and whatnot; but income improvements provided I'll enjoy picking up CSS at some point in the hopefully near future. Beautiful library, and very, very nice people to talk to at their company.


----------



## studioj (Mar 1, 2021)

Thank you!
I have a handful of exciters... I do love the VSL one for strings though. Sonnox inflator is also great, but a little more subtle.. Gulfoss could be called a smart exciter perhaps, but I couldn’t get out of it what I needed for this sound by itself. I think the distortion quality from the VSL exciter is fairly unique. But you could probably achieve similar effects with some distortion and eq’s.


----------



## ToadsworthLP (May 3, 2021)

Would you mind sharing the exact mic mix/EQ/Gullfoss settings as well? I was able to get fairly close to your demo's gorgeous sound, but never exactly match it.


----------



## Russell Anderson (May 3, 2021)

this demo singlehandedly sparked an adventure into m/s multiband saturation and air boosts (which isn't gulfoss, but... eventually maybe)

I just finished a Fab Filter Saturn emulation (minus the modulation) in FL Studio Patcher if anyone here happens to use it and wants to try out some pretty good multiband mid/side saturation (built with MSaturator)


----------



## Music01Bebe (May 8, 2021)

studioj said:


> This post from @sIR dORT : https://vi-control.net/community/threads/hws-divisi-test.102464/
> inspired me to try a mockup of this stunning string cue from John Williams. All CSS, with a single CSSS violin on the violin1 part for a little detail. some EQ and color flavors from Gulfoss and VSL Exciter. Feedback welcome thank you


the strings are so up close, did you use too much close mic


----------



## studioj (Nov 20, 2021)

Just picked up Orchestral Tool's Berlin Symphonic Strings on the OT sale so decided to give them a test run by setting up this mockup with BSS instead of CSS. BSS (and especially when adding BS) is a bigger string orch than CSS and benefits from that size difference here I think. Here are some details in case you are interested!

• Did not get obsessive about re-mixing, re-blending etc. A straight copy of the MIDI was actually not that bad but a little flat. With the CSS version I performed cc1 and cc11 separately. With this version I simply copied the cc1 data to cc11. And redrew a handful of curves, but only like 2 of them.

• In the CSS version I did layer CSSS vln1 with the CSS section and so I thought it was fair game to bring in Berlin Strings a bit on this version (also in sine now!)... vln1 and Celli 1 main parts have Berlin Strings layered. I think this was when the performance really started to speak.

• Mic mixing in sine libraries is a treat! was really able to dial in a preferred sound by using most of the available mics. I didn't spend a ton of time per section though and only got a violin sound I was happy with and then applied that setting to the rest of the section.

• I think CSS has some more interesting textural goodness at super quiet dynamics but overall I think this version might bring a little more emotion to the table. there is more clarity in the sound--I still used the VSL exciter and gullfoss but not nearly as much. Same overall reverb applied. Did not spend time level matching... probably should do that for a truly fair comparison.

Overall very happy with the purchase. The celli are especially rich. I do feel like there is still further I could take this for even more realism, perhaps diving into other articulations (everything is straight up Sustain Legato) and other OT string libraries. See what you think.


----------



## TintoL (Nov 20, 2021)

studioj said:


> This post from @sIR dORT : https://vi-control.net/community/threads/hws-divisi-test.102464/
> 
> 
> studioj said:
> ...



I am speechless at how good both versions sound. They are just different flavors. The first one has a lot of detail, and the second one is just a massive string section.

I am really impressed at the quality of sound you got from CSS.

Thanks for sharing.


----------



## studioj (Nov 20, 2021)

TintoL said:


> I am speechless at how good both versions sound. They are just different flavors. The first one has a lot of detail, and the second one is just a massive string section.
> 
> I am really impressed at the quality of sound you got from CSS.
> 
> Thanks for sharing.


Hey thanks so much!! it certainly doesn't hurt that it is a brilliant cue by a master of his craft...:-D
Yeah there is just a little more tactile/textural detail to the CSS version. While the BSS version loses some of that, it gains in pure clarity of sound to me though, but it is maybe a little too precise feeling overall. And yes they are very different flavors so maybe not the most ideal comparison.


----------



## Symfoniq (Nov 22, 2021)

This sounds stunningly good. This CSS mockup is especially fantastic. I'd pay money for a YouTube video showing how you did it!

I wish I could use the VSL Exciter directly in my DAW, as I don't use VE Pro much anymore.


----------



## Evans (Nov 23, 2021)

It's projects like this that make me feel silly for looking at something like Pacific Strings.


----------



## Vladimir Bulaev (Nov 23, 2021)

Evans said:


> It's projects like this that make me feel silly for looking at something like Pacific Strings.


I'm sorry, but what do you mean by that?


----------



## Evans (Nov 23, 2021)

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> I'm sorry, but what do you mean by that?


I'm not maximizing use of what I already have.

EDIT: Big shock, I know.


----------



## Russell Anderson (Nov 23, 2021)

Evans said:


> It's projects like this that make me feel silly for looking at something like Pacific Strings



Well, they do just sound different, too. I bet if you heard it programmed like this with Pacific, you’d feel less silly!

This mockup does still remain my benchmark for CSS’ potential, though, it was what nearly sold me if not everything else.


----------



## studioj (Dec 5, 2021)

Hey all
Thanks again for all the thoughtful comments. I gave this tune a spin with my latest purchase, Modern Scoring Strings by Audiobro. It gave me a good arena for setting the library up and working through all the really intelligent programming options. I think in many ways I was able to get even closer to the original recording with this library. There are so many ways to finesse the performance in MSS that it inspired me to dig a little deeper. At the same time I wouldn't call MSS complicated or fiddly as it mostly always did what I expected. I used the autodivisi feature for the Divisi parts instead of separate tracks. Employed the expanded Sul tasto legato where I thought it improved the vibe (I got the combo bundle), but it is mostly just the standard legato articulation. Also as in the other versions, I layered in some MSS solo instruments that are included where I thought it helped. Still leaned on the VSL exciter to bring some bite to the sound. Reverb here is Cinematic Rooms, instead of the UAD 480L (trying to wean myself from UAD a little, to bring down session latency). See what you think! MSS or CSS come out on top?


----------



## Russell Anderson (Dec 5, 2021)

I’m at work and can’t afford the hands to a/b the two, but that’s probably the best MSS mockup I’ve heard thus far. You’re doing great work, studioj! I wonder how it would sound with a touch less of the reverb? I’d have to listen again to hear whether or not that’s what I’d actually want to hear, but it was a thought. The phrasing and tonality of the instruments really shines here, better than pretty much everything I can remember hearing coming out of MSS, you followed your ears to a great result. 

I think I know a @muziksculp who might not know yet that the above is something he wants to hear


----------



## studioj (Dec 5, 2021)

Russell Anderson said:


> I’m at work and can’t afford the hands to a/b the two, but that’s probably the best MSS mockup I’ve heard thus far. You’re doing great work, studioj! I wonder how it would sound with a touch less of the reverb? I’d have to listen again to hear whether or not that’s what I’d actually want to hear, but it was a thought. The phrasing and tonality of the instruments really shines here, better than pretty much everything I can remember hearing coming out of MSS, you followed your ears to a great result.
> 
> I think I know a @muziksculp who might not know yet that the above is something he wants to hear


Thank you!! Interesting you mention that… it was the first change I made after a first pass of sorting it all out, was to curb the verb a bit. And I think you’re right, there is likely room to bring that back even more. Will experiment with that! 🙏🙏🙏


----------



## Russell Anderson (Dec 6, 2021)

studioj said:


> Thank you!! Interesting you mention that… it was the first change I made after a first pass of sorting it all out, was to curb the verb a bit. And I think you’re right, there is likely room to bring that back even more. Will experiment with that! 🙏🙏🙏


It's really only in some parts, I think, mostly the louder ones it starts to be more noticeable. Largely I think it's well-dialled in. I noticed later that the soloist/close mic panned far-left would poke out at like :50 (in my headphones), only on occasion. 

_...However... _your programming here is so good, ... you may have just pushed me over the edge for this library. I've been on the fence about it for a long while, being after a full-sized ensemble without a lot of vibrato, and runs/ostenatos (not to mention the divisi, soloists, sound design...); the holdup on MSS for me was always the programmability and sound, but your mention specifically about the ease of use, combined with how well you've executed this part (also I can imagine the realism that comes from being able to set v1-A slightly close than v1-B, and likewise for the rest of the ensemble and first chairs), this is pretty compelling. Besides this mockup only @Duncan Krummel 's writing with MSS has really tempted me. 

As for which version between these three, that's probably going to take me some more time. There are certain legato intervals and phrases where CSS shines, BSS... sounds big and lush, MSS sounds maybe the most... natural?


----------



## gst98 (Dec 6, 2021)

Even though the tone of CSS isn't the closest to the original, and is hard to brighten it up and give it the sheen it needs, the performance is still just lightyears ahead. I find the CSS version actually tricks me into thinking it's a real performance because there seems to be a musical intent behind it, rather than most samples which sound like chopped and spliced snapshots.

I find the transitions in MSS to be so clunky and out of place. Especially the portamentos - most libraries portamentos absolutely suck, and CSS is one of the few exceptions. I do like the swells and re-articulation of notes on the MSS version though, and this is the first time I've heard MSS and actually liked the tone. Also I think the cello line stuck out a bit too much in the CSS version - the MSS sat in the mix better.

The BSS version has the nicest mix, but is way too heavy-handed to handle this sort of writing. Amazing job though!


----------



## Symfoniq (Dec 6, 2021)

The MSS mockup is quite good, but I still prefer CSS for overall tone and realism.


----------



## Russell Anderson (Dec 6, 2021)

The soaring line at 1:14 really flatters CSS, and the swell at 1:33ish. I notice in the MSS mockup, 1:14's soaring 5th in the 1st violin kind of hides, and at 1:33 the swell is lengthened. Were these intentional changes? I should say, were you worried about the effects of pushing the violin or backing off the cc1 at each timestamp respectively?

:37-:45ish was also very stable in CSS, MSS there was choppier. As far as selling something as a real performance goes, the CSS does it very well indeed, though there are many good places in the MSS version, and for me who's thinking of layering MSS with other stuff, I've got NSS, Vista and SCS for the more lugubrious or emotional lines... which I am thinking should cover me pretty well by themselves already for those lines.


----------



## studioj (Dec 6, 2021)

Russell Anderson said:


> The soaring line at 1:14 really flatters CSS, and the swell at 1:33ish. I notice in the MSS mockup, 1:14's soaring 5th in the 1st violin kind of hides, and at 1:33 the swell is lengthened. Were these intentional changes?


I referenced the original recording a little more on the MSS mockup and there were some spots where I tamed things a little yes. I did not go back and review the CSS version while working on it, and I agree - that bloom there is really nice in the CSS vln. it is generally easier to craft those kind of ultra expressive swells with CSS I would say, as MSS doesn't quite have the same dynamic range on cc1 or vibrato intensity, but I found when I wanted a little more juice, mixing in the solo violin helped a lot. overall I think I would prefer the MSS approach and tone though throughout general working - the CSS vibrato can be a little unwieldy at times but really shines in a cue like this. I think someone earlier in this thread -maybe it was you- mentioned they preferred the CSS mockup to the original recording! and I think that is because it is more dynamic, the original recording is a little more subdued in spots, and I chased that a little with the MSS version. 

If you end up picking up MSS, I think the main things for setup are getting the articulation switching setup to your liking (its very easy to do in the "switcher" config window), and then getting a fader on cc4 which is what controls "variations"... or attack/sustain types, and different short lengths. Also I found mapping vibrato control to cc1 with dynamics generally gave me what I wanted, and I left the "molto" button on which adds another layer of richer vibrato. Auto Divisi is also pretty brilliant, I mapped that to a cc so I could easily turn it on and off as I went, but you can leave it on and still get great polyphonic legato performance. The ability to individually pan the two Divisi sections in each group also helped set the stage. I mostly used combos of the stage and close mics. 

CSS really nails what happens just AFTER a legato transition, and I think that might be why those work so well. I think MSS is the closest I've tried though to that level of realism. I could see it becoming my new workhorse as I found it generally easier to get a workable/realistic sound.


----------



## studioj (Dec 6, 2021)

Symfoniq said:


> This sounds stunningly good. This CSS mockup is especially fantastic. I'd pay money for a YouTube video showing how you did it!
> 
> I wish I could use the VSL Exciter directly in my DAW, as I don't use VE Pro much anymore.


ty!! I'm using VSL exciter directly in Logic and in Pro Tools (did the MSS version in PT)... it's part of VSL's "Vienna Suite" set of plugins, which I'm pretty sure is still available for purchase outside of VEP.


Russell Anderson said:


> :37-:45ish was also very stable in CSS, MSS there was choppier. As far as selling something as a real performance goes, the CSS does it very well indeed, though there are many good places in the MSS version, and for me who's thinking of layering MSS with other stuff, I've got NSS, Vista and SCS for the more lugubrious or emotional lines... which I am thinking should cover me pretty well by themselves already for those lines.


SCS is probably still my favorite string library, mainly because of the massive bucket of articulations and quality of the recordings. The legato stuff is kind of just ok in that lib but everything else just sounds SO good... and I still prefer spitfire shorts over everything. I don't have experience with NSS or Vista.
I am looking forward to digging into the ostinato and detune/aleatoric stuff in MSS, those seem very unique and powerful. I used the aleatoric patches in LASS just last month in a big project. They do that stuff right!!


----------



## studioj (Dec 6, 2021)

ya know to be fair, these sample libraries are a little like musical instruments and do take practice to wrangle them... I had the benefit of using CSS for a couple years before tackling the mockup in the first post, and this was my maiden voyage with MSS... it might be interesting to give a second look once I get a little more MSS time on the clock! despite that, I am very happy with what MSS offers no doubt.


----------



## QuiteAlright (Dec 6, 2021)

Great work studioj, these mockups all sound lovely and I think you've done a great job. For me personally, the CSS mockup sounds better than the other two, and I find that the legato transitions are the most natural; they sound a little slower and smoother to my ears.


----------



## handz (Dec 7, 2021)

Just listened to CSS - really beautiful sounds very very good.


----------



## Nando Florestan (Dec 9, 2021)

studioj said:


> MSS doesn't quite have the same dynamic range on cc1


Hello there, great mockups, you're becoming my hero. You must have overlooked this, you can configure the dynamic range in MSS to whatever you want. I set the dynamic range to 39 dB and that actually delivers 36 dB.

I really like the sound of the MSS mockup (as the others) but I think this time you used portamento too much. The original recording doesn't have any portamento that we become conscious of. It's calling too much attention to itself.

I became very interested in these mockups because I have been trying to tame MSS myself since this Black Friday and before that I was beginning to think of CSS as my go-to. Anyone that might help with suggestions is welcome to hear my orchestration of the slow movement Rachmaninoff's first piano sonata:






nandoflorestan


Listen to tracks by nandoflorestan on Whyp.




whyp.it





Right now I have 2 versions -- MSS versus all the other libraries. That page makes it easy to switch between the two to compare. The version at the top uses MSS, except the basses are still CSS. The older version uses CSS, Con Moto, NSS etc but all libraries are EQ'd to approximate Con Moto which has a very charming timbre (though not classical). I am now thinking of doing the opposite: EQing libraries to imitate MSS as long as the sound becomes more classical and nondescript. Both versions use Sample Modeling for the written trills on first violins at 7:30, just because I don't think another thing exists that can play those.

I think I'll be tweaking this mockup more (though a lot of time has been spent on it already) to get the performance just right. I am hoping that, if I learn MSS properly, I will become faster at making mockups. I think its sound is more classical than CSS, Con Moto and NSS.

I haven't done any layering. The older mockup just CASTS the best library for each phrase.

I am a beginner at mixing, so any suggestions are appreciated. Even simply pointing to the weakest points is enormous help. Oh and I have a version using Sample Modeling only. So cringe... that was 19 months ago. I don't like this version at all anymore...


----------



## FireGS (Dec 9, 2021)

Nando Florestan said:


> I really like the sound of the MSS mockup (as the others) but I think this time you used portamento too much. The original recording doesn't have any portamento that we become conscious of. It's calling too much attention to itself.


----------



## studioj (Dec 10, 2021)

Nando Florestan said:


> Hello there, great mockups, you're becoming my hero. You must have overlooked this, you can configure the dynamic range in MSS to whatever you want. I set the dynamic range to 39 dB and that actually delivers 36 dB.
> 
> I really like the sound of the MSS mockup (as the others) but I think this time you used portamento too much. The original recording doesn't have any portamento that we become conscious of. It's calling too much attention to itself.


ha, I'm no hero, I just like string libraries a little much maybe... seems like we are similar in that way 
The library is so deep, I know these things are possible like the dynamic range tweaks, just kind of taking one step at a time configuring it to my liking. Thanks for that tip on the setting. Totally agree on the transition/ portamento thing... I've had a little more time with MSS now and plan to revisit this as I get more comfortable with it. Thanks for your feedback! Looking forward to checking out your comparisons.


----------



## studioj (Jan 21, 2022)

happy friday

This cue has become a nice way for me to give new string libraries a solid legato spin around the block. Now with Spitfire's new Appassionata Strings:


View attachment The Starkiller - SF Appassionata - JCrane Mockup.mp3



While I enjoyed not dealing with as much delay as CSS has, other things were more difficult to manage I thought, like re-bows of the same note, and interestingly dynamics were not as simple to wrangle. The ported over CSS dynamics were useless, made the performance feel totally flat and so I re-performed all the dynamics as well as retimed every note pretty much. I'm still doing a lot of mixing, the library is too dark for my taste out of the box and so I'm using various things to liven the sound. I'm using Mix4 here with a little tree mic peppered in. I feel like I have a lot more to learn with this library ... ie I actually didn't find a ton of use for the hairpins, just a few spots where they make an appearance. I think the mockup could benefit from some solo instrument layering which I haven't done here. 

This ensemble is too small for this piece but I'm glad I gave it a go and I look forward to using this library with my SSO and SCS projects. And I think I do prefer it over the other non-CSS versions I've done, although I also gave this a little more attention. I think in terms of programming expressive romantic strings I still prefer CSS... there is just more texture in the performance at low dynamics, a little more explosive emotion at the top, and I prefer the legato sound ever so slightly.... but I know this new collection from Spitfire will get some use. Interested in what you think!


----------



## NoamL (Jan 21, 2022)

Great stuff Judson! As always.

I would be super interested to hear your mockup exported with *just outriggers?* or maybe outriggers+Stereo Room, if you could be so kind!... Most of the mixes have a ton of close signal mixed in it seems like, not sure that's right for big JW/cinematic pieces. Indeed your CSS demo was wider in the stereo field than the Appassionata one!

I downloaded all 4 demos and blind tested them. Appassionata is a close 2nd behind CSS for this mockup... I felt the least good was the Berlin. Really restrained or flattened expression, yet paradoxically the library also has these super exaggerated portamentos - and if they don't fit in this piece where on earth would you use them, eh? Modern Scoring Strings also seemed less consistent and balanced than Apassionata. Your 4 demos as a group, I reckon, show that 30-40 player ensembles like CSS and Appassionata are maybe best at capturing samples which can be expressively programmed. The larger ensembles kind feel flat and generic by comparison. They are more authentic to the original recording in that 1 respect of ensemble size but the musicality of CSS and Appassionata is superior.

Definitely felt CSS was better at doing phrasing down at the very bottom of the dynamics. Perhaps that's because CSS has "built in CC11" insofar as it has a fade to niente between 20(-ish?) and 0. So Appassionata might need a 2-controller approach to work at those dynamics.

Biggest disappointment with Appassionata (keeping in mind that I love the library) is that the cellos don't go quite so intense as CSS which you can clearly hear at 1:07 in both mockups. On the other hand the CSS vibrato, especially on those cellos, is intense and wide _throughout_ its dynamic range which is sometimes excessive depending on the musical material.


----------



## studioj (Jan 21, 2022)

NoamL said:


> Great stuff Judson! As always.
> 
> I would be super interested to hear your mockup exported with just outriggers, or maybe outriggers+Stereo Room, if you could be so kind!... Most of the mixes have a ton of close signal mixed in it seems like, not sure that's right for big JW/cinematic pieces. Indeed your CSS demo was wider in the stereo field than the Appassionata one!
> 
> ...


Thank you! I'll experiment with the mics and post for sure. I started with mix 1, but it felt just a little flubby and non-detailed, so moved to this as a second approach without doing any more testing really. lots of options with this library in this regard for sure. Interestingly I even widened the stereo field in the Appassionata version - panning vln1 a little further left and cello further right, and also used the width control in the interface. the CSS version benefits from a little wide solo violin but its subtle and I think overall CSS is just a wider experience. Which is kind of crazy if you've ever recorded at Air... I mean there is so much room to really push that shit out to the stratosphere... hopefully some additional diving into mics can help me find that. But I am always having to work to get my libraries to get at all any where near to the kind of width you feel in a real scoring session in a great room. 

I am using tons of cc11 along with the cc1 for dynamics here, although I'm not matching them exactly. I think its all about the musicality that is built into those CSS sample performances. its just there and you can't fake it. But these two libraries are not too far off as you've commented. 

I think one reason the MSS mockup doesn't live up because its such a deep library and I don't have control of it yet. I did try and revisit that one removing most of the more exaggerated portamento, but still was feeling I had to drive that bad boy a little longer before this race :-D

Thank you for taking the time to compare!


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen (Jan 21, 2022)

It’s great to not hear the CSS baked-in vibrato in the high notes here, but OTOH I miss the “extra” emotional value CSS brings compared to SAS.

Edit: At 0:46 / 0:47 for example


----------



## studioj (Jan 21, 2022)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> It’s great to not hear the CSS baked-in vibrato in the high notes here, but OTOH I miss the “extra” emotional value CSS brings compared to SAS.
> 
> Edit: At 0:46 / 0:47 for example


Spot on! it should be noted that this baked in stuff in CSS can get in the way sometimes, while in other instances it can be just the right thing. It is nice having this more controlled spitfire sound. The vibrato in SCS and SSS is similarly often way too much as well so I like what they've done here.


----------



## studioj (Jan 22, 2022)

Ok, an improvement I think. @NoamL 's mic suggestions really opened this up I feel, plus a little help from some soloists, a little more reverb and other misc mix adjustments. starting to get closer to what the CSS version accomplishes perhaps on some level. This is using the Outriggers plus some stereo room.

View attachment The Starkiller - SF Appassionata V2 - JCrane Mockup.mp3


PS this is my first outing with Studio One as well... good stuff, getting the hang of it!


----------



## studioj (Jan 22, 2022)

And after AB'ing some more I think I'm preferring this new version now. The CSS version may feel a little "sweeter", but this is starting to feel more modern cinematic and more similar to what I'm familiar with in terms of film scoring sessions. The new version is louder which is maybe not totally fair, but I'm trying to mix to the sound and that seemed to be working well here. thx for the feedback on the mics @NoamL !


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen (Jan 22, 2022)

studioj said:


> Ok, an improvement I think. @NoamL 's mic suggestions really opened this up I feel, plus a little help from some soloists, a little more reverb and other misc mix adjustments. starting to get closer to what the CSS version accomplishes perhaps on some level. This is using the Outriggers plus some stereo room.
> 
> View attachment The Starkiller - SF Appassionata V2 - JCrane Mockup.mp3
> 
> ...


The high velocity, high range notes sound like something from LOTR the first 25 seconds (tone) 🙂 At 0:46 - 0:49 it becomes too shrill for me, it‘s like the high strings “stand still”, like a snapshot, for a few seconds. Edit: Same with 1:13 - 1:17.


----------



## FireGS (Jan 22, 2022)

Violins coming in HAM at 0:17. And at 0:46, and 1:14.


----------



## NoamL (Jan 22, 2022)

That sounds really good now! And yeah the dynamic range is huge on this library, this particular piece might not need the loudest layer. There's a lot of motion and expression possible even without it.


----------



## Symfoniq (Jan 22, 2022)

Thanks for continuing to do these mockups! Yours is definitely the best mockup I've heard from SAS, including the official demos.

I still like the CSS mockup better, but SAS is a close second, whereas I didn't _love_ the Berlin or MSS mockups (not your fault, they're certainly not bad, just not my cup of tea).

I may have to pick up SAS now...


----------



## studioj (Jan 22, 2022)

I tend to like things a little zingier and extreme but yes those places are intense. Here is an attempt to curb those spots a bit. Basically to get the lower dynamics to buzz where I want them, its just too much for the top so it takes some additional moves outside of dynamic curves. and yes there is maybe an approach where I don't need to reach for the top on those explosive moments! thanks all

View attachment The Starkiller - SF Appassionata V3 - JCrane Mockup .mp3


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen (Jan 22, 2022)

studioj said:


> I tend to like things a little zingier and extreme but yes those places are intense. Here is an attempt to curb those spots a bit. Basically to get the lower dynamics to buzz where I want them, its just too much for the top so it takes some additional moves outside of dynamic curves. and yes there is maybe an approach where I don't need to reach for the top on those explosive moments! thanks all
> 
> View attachment The Starkiller - SF Appassionata V3 - JCrane Mockup .mp3


I think this takes away a lot of the great LOTR tone of the first 25 secs of the first version. Edit: The high velocity high notes in first 25 secs sound a bit constrained here compared to in the first version.


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen (Jan 22, 2022)

Edit: This version up until 0:45 really sounds magical, listening to it again now. Holy cow 

Post in thread 'Mockup of The Starkiller by JW - CSS (Now with Spitfire Appassionata)'
https://vi-control.net/community/th...ith-spitfire-appassionata.103152/post-5031411


----------



## studioj (Jan 22, 2022)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> The first version up until 0:45 really sounds magical, listening to it again now. Holy cow


 I just took a quick listen to some of that, you're right the tone is really similar!! You're talking about V1 of SAS? or V2 of SAS (with the new mic selection)?. I think that is when you first commented on the similarity to LOTR. it is a tricky balance with such a large dynamic range. I messed with soothe2 on this last pass and curbed some tape saturation I was using, all probably having negative affects on the first half. thanks for your feedback!


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen (Jan 22, 2022)

studioj said:


> I just took a quick listen to some of that, you're right the tone is really similar!! You're talking about V1 of SAS? or V2 of SAS (with the new mic selection)?. I think that is when you first commented on the similarity to LOTR. it is a tricky balance with such a large dynamic range. I messed with soothe2 on this last pass and curbed some tape saturation I was using, all probably having negative affects on the first half. thanks for your feedback!


Version 1 🙂 It does, doesn’t it! During Version 2 I was reminded of the music for X-Files, think it’s Mike something, the name of the composer.


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen (Jan 22, 2022)

Ah I meant this one, must be V2 :

Post in thread 'Mockup of The Starkiller by JW - CSS (Now with Spitfire Appassionata)'
https://vi-control.net/community/th...ith-spitfire-appassionata.103152/post-5031411


----------



## studioj (Jan 22, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> SAS sounds good, especially the second reworked version. But then I listened to the CSS again, and, for me, CSS sounds magical and better for this piece. Berlin is ok, but the portamentos aren't right phrasing for the piece. MSS has lovely yearning quality to it, but again, flick back to CSS and it just suits the piece best of all. But all the libraries sound great really, none are objectively bad, it's like the final 2 percent differences is all. Great to hear them all demoed with such care and attention.


Its true huh. Chasing the unchaseable here perhaps  listening to the CSS version, as I think someone else commented here, you get a little more lost in the music and are less tuned into the details of the mockup. I guess that's the goal, idn'it.


----------



## NoamL (Jan 22, 2022)

Honestly just "roughly as good as CSS" is very high praise, if a library came out every week that was "roughly as good as CSS" but with a slightly different emotional tone I would be one happy camper!! CSS, CS2 and Appassionata are top tier imo, each usable for different things.


----------



## studioj (Jan 22, 2022)

NoamL said:


> Honestly just "roughly as good as CSS" is very high praise, if a library came out every week that was "roughly as good as CSS" but with a slightly different emotional tone I would be one happy camper!! CSS, CS2 and Appassionata are top tier imo, each usable for different things.


This is true!


----------

