# I suck, suck at chord progressions. Please help



## SimonCharlesHanna (Mar 22, 2015)

My training has been in that of counter point (to the point where the notion of "chords and chord progressions" were shunned) and so I am left a little in the dark I suppose?

My skills in sketching are starting to get monotonous because I keep playing the same thing and when i start to experiment (especially in the minor key) I find I cannot make use of the key at all.

Is there a resource or book that can help out? I already have in my possession a big book o' chord progressions but they are centred around pop/rock/60s progressions - helpful but not exactly what I am after.

Thanks for the help


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## tokatila (Mar 22, 2015)

What I have found helpful is "stealing".

While you can't find too much full orchestral scores basically anywhere, what you can find, is a lot of piano reductions some official; some fanmade. Why not use them to figure out the progressions they use.

I have this evergrowing word document where I put them e.g. "Last Samurai" - progression and some notes how they make me feel / sound to me. 

Unless of course you are trying to reinvent the wheel. I don't. Some chord progressions are more popular than others for a reason, IMO. :mrgreen:

My current favorite for Epic stuff is "Jablonsky Progression": i – III – VII – iv


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Mar 22, 2015)

That's a great idea. I might have to start a little log book


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## tokatila (Mar 22, 2015)

SimonCharlesHanna @ Sun Mar 22 said:


> That's a great idea. I might have to start a little log book



Glad I could be of an assistance. Funny though; the piece I'm working on has chord progression directly stolen from Ellie Goulding's new über-hit "Love me like you do". Nobody who I have played it has noticed it, since the rhythm of chord change and the melody is so different. Great progression though. 8)


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## Frederick Russ (Mar 22, 2015)

Check out EIS.


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## EastWest Lurker (Mar 22, 2015)

If you analyze Bach's Well Tempered Clavier pieces, you will find all kinds of chord progressions. Also Chopin.


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## bbunker (Mar 22, 2015)

Jazz.

Learning to use chord substitutions teaches you what kinds of root relations lead to and from each other, how to replace one color with another related color, and what colors of tonal language progress naturally from one to another. And, you learn how to use upper auxiliaries as isolated colors on harmony, learn how to apply the same tone as a chord note in a number of harmonic situations, and learn more exotic resources for harmonizing the same melodic content.

Seems like it'd be useful to you.


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## wst3 (Mar 22, 2015)

Jay beat me to it... but he is right.

The only tweak I'd offer is to start with pop music. Learn how even the simple chord progressions can work well.

Then learn about chord substitution by listening to, and stealing from - I mean analyzing - jazz.

From there you'll have a pretty strong background in chord harmony, and analyzing classical or even contemporary scores will be easier.

That may not work for everyone, but it continues to help me figure things out.

That said, I think you will reach a point where you no longer need to think in terms of chord progressions, per se. Kind of full circle<G>!


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## ModalRealist (Mar 22, 2015)

I too struggle with harmony more than any other component (not that I don't struggle with all of it!). On a practical level, I've found the iPad app "Chordtone" really useful. It lets you construct chord sequences (from just about any chord ever invented) and can play it all back in a number of styles. Exports to audio and MIDI too. It's definitely not a composition tool, but it's great for idly constructing and testing progressions away from a keyboard (especially if, like me, you'd spend too much time figuring the chords on the keys). Very useful for "hearing back" a sequence in a harmony text, or one extracted from a score you're looking at. I've exported the ones I like most into Sibelius, and now have a little printed "chord book."


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Mar 22, 2015)

The worst is that I have spend so much time (at the beginning of every new piece) playing the same crap on the keyboard over and over again to the point where if I hear a minor or major chord in root position I am like..Bleeeeeeeeeeeuuuuuughhhhh 

I try to plan out as much as possible but I must be doing something wrong. 

Thanks for all the advice.

I will definitely have to analyze some pieces I think. And do more study.


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## Rv5 (Mar 22, 2015)

tokatila @ Sun Mar 22 said:


> While you can't find too much full orchestral scores basically anywhere..



Are you talking about online? Otherwise - have a good look at local libraries. Also being a student can help - (students at London Universities for example have access to all University of London libraries and hundreds if not thousands of scores - Sconul access (http://www.sconul.ac.uk/sconul-access) and similar schemes widen the accessibility).

Otherwise public libraries might be good for all sorts - they can often do inter-library loans where you can request something and they'll borrow it from another library for you. I've only experience with libraries in the UK though!

Otherwise http://www.boosey.com/shop/powersearch/ ... catid=7127, also check eBay and Amazon for second hand scores. I got Bach Riemenschneider 371 Harmonised Chorals and 69 Chorale Melodies from Amazon for a great price! Actually just did a search and you can pick it up for next to nothing...

Also this is great: http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_30?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=the%20study%20of%20orchestration%20samuel%20adler&sprefix=the+study+of+orchestration+sam%2Cstripbooks%2C212 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_ ... ooks%2C212)

and I like this too http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0571196586/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_2?pf_rd_p=569136327&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0793525748&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_r=0008CV01SB5W1HXRK13H (http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0571196586/r ... 5W1HXRK13H)

They're out there - for free access and study, check public libraries and ask them about music scores. At my old university library, there are hundreds of full scores and hundreds of miniature scores and folio works and more, a copy of Beethoven's manuscript for his 9th - crazy seeing all the scribbles and crossing out and ideas fiercely written on the pages - is there etc etc. Library's can be good places.


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## tokatila (Mar 22, 2015)

Rv5 @ Sun Mar 22 said:


> tokatila @ Sun Mar 22 said:
> 
> 
> > While you can't find too much full orchestral scores basically anywhere..



Sry, wasn't specific enough. I meant film / game scores.


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## Rv5 (Mar 22, 2015)

tokatila @ Sun Mar 22 said:


> Rv5 @ Sun Mar 22 said:
> 
> 
> > tokatila @ Sun Mar 22 said:
> ...



Ah yeah! Way harder to come by!


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## José Herring (Mar 22, 2015)

SimonCharlesHanna @ Sun Mar 22 said:


> My training has been in that of counter point (to the point where the notion of "chords and chord progressions" were shunned) and so I am left a little in the dark I suppose?



Review florid counterpoint and free counterpoint. That IS chord progression.


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## cAudio (Mar 22, 2015)

One "trick" I use is create a bass line first, then putting a triad over each bassnote. If I have the bassnote C possible chords would be: C, Cm, F/C, Fm/C, Am/C, Ab/C, D7/C, Bb/C and so one. These would be the most obvious, and less obvious: Db/C, G/C, Dm/C, B/C... This is of course not very academic, but a nice way to extend ones chord vocabulary.
Will also, like some already have mentioned, recommend transcribing chordprogressions in music in different styles, especially jazz and more "sophisticated" pop music. And it also helps to be a good pianist :D


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## Will Blackburn (Apr 1, 2015)

Booked


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## cmillar (Apr 1, 2015)

What are 'hearing' inside your brain.... even before you put your hands on the keyboard. 

Find the roots, or bass notes of what you're 'hearing'. 
Find your melody.

Then, fill in the middle.... are you hearing somewhat 'conventional', traditional, generic chord movement?

Or, if you're hearing something new (hopefully!) let the music lead you. 
Let the music decide what your chords are.... not a theory book.

I agree, you should get into jazz to learn about more possibilities and substition possibilities.

Try to find some Dick Grove videos on YouTube or some of his books somewhere.

Most of all, have fun! Make 'mistakes'! Break 'the rules'!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 1, 2015)

My vote is for this:



> What I have found helpful is "stealing".


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## trumpoz (Apr 1, 2015)

Another vote for stealing from the language of jazz harmony. One of the more important things IMHO is to also listen to a lot of the style you are wanting to 'borrow' from as it will start to form the chord colours in your head. Mark Levine's book 'the jazz pianist' is a great resource as it includes common voicings for various chords so you can familiarise yourself with them.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 2, 2015)

Oh, I must meant to steal in general.


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## robh (Apr 2, 2015)

Frederick Russ @ Sun Mar 22 said:


> Check out EIS.



Another vote for EIS. It sure has helped me.


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## davidburns134 (Apr 2, 2015)

I find it very helpful to never shun voice leading, ever. Good voice leading usually leads to good chord progressions and everything you learn in counterpoint tends to apply (it's not about rules, but it's about control over harmony such that you maximize your instrumental resources). Beyond that, harmonic rhythm is often a better way to think about it than chord changes, everything can be reduced to a harmonic rhythm, even the most complex tonal music has a basis in solid harmonic rhythm structure.


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## kurtvanzo (Apr 9, 2015)

Quote : "found the iPad app "Chordtone" really useful." Couldn't find "chordtone" in the App Store but "chords and scales" and "piano companion" both seem useful and will suggest/ play piano chord progressions that could work. Also Anytune will slow a song down without changing pitch so you can study a song's chord progression while playing along- even loops a section when you choose in and out points! All are free at the App Store.


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## tonaliszt (Apr 9, 2015)

This might be useful: http://www.hooktheory.com/trends#node=4&key=C
The titles on this page are neat too: http://www.hooktheory.com/theorytab/common-chord-progressions
I think the best way to use this site (and your "big book o' progressions) would be to use the template chord progressions as starting points. Change the bass notes, add 7ths, 9ths, sus4, expand the progression. I also like to develop the harmony as the melody progresses, so the melody helps inspire new harmonies. I like to change the bass notes the first time, and use the "correct" ones the second time. It makes it seem like the harmony is the same but has gotten subtly "better" to the listener. Something I have been experimenting lately with is using modulation as a goal to inspire unique harmonies and melodies. 
While I prefer to not use the same chord progression over and over in a track, it is what people expect from many genres. :(


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## Dave Connor (Apr 9, 2015)

You should develop a methodology that offers different progression to your ears.

For example, a C major Triad is of course C E G so you could experiment by using those three tones as bass notes of a chord progression but do not treat the chords as diatonic to C, just use the roots with a mode opposite from the expected diatonic chord.

C E G becomes:
CMaj - EMaj - Gmin

Now experiment with the order of those three (all the permutations).

CMaj -Gmin - EMaj etc....

Or just switch the modes of the original set or any set.

Cmin - Emin - GMaj etc...

Or Lower the roots by half or whole steps: Cmin Ebmin F etc. (i.e. lower by 3rds, 4ths or raise by the same or lower one and raise the other... you get the idea.)

Or if you like just one chord change such as C - Gmin, keep it and begin a similar proceeding to find other chords. The options become exponential when you employ a system that can be tweaked again and again. I just thought of this one right now to demonstrate how easy it should be.

Now, if you run into the ancient problem of longer forms or progressions (or groups of progressions) demanding a logical coherence then you have to identify the characteristics of what you have established {your Main Material} in order to restate it or vary it or contrast it and the like.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Apr 10, 2015)

Thank you everyone for the wonderful and varied responses. 


I approached my teacher with the same issue and he asked me why I even want to change chords - more a philosophical question rather than a technical one. 

the core of my problem is that I do no grasp chord (emotional) *function* properly which is why I get stuck. I know the basics of leading tones, dominant chords etc. but only in a predominantly technical sense. 

I'm trying to get away from the "writing music that sounds good" mentality and into the "creating a narrative/emotional journey"; writing with purpose I suppose as oppose to banging out something until it sounds like real music.


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## Stradibaldi (Apr 10, 2015)

The advice I can offer is the more you transcribe the more you will see the SAME tricks being used over and over. Your teacher set you on exactly the right track because you will discover that similar *emotional function* is produced by similar harmony.

For example "*i to bVI*" is sort of dark and Gothic and majestic: and that's the essence of Batman's themes (both Elfman and Zimmer), that's the Force Theme from Star Wars, that's the two brass chords from The Matrix, etc. 

or *"I to iv6"* is wistful and yearning; John Williams uses this in Princess Leia's theme, the love theme from Indiana Jones, it's in Empire Strikes Back as Han-Leia's theme, etc.

or yet again *"I to #IV"* (yes C major to F# major!) is a staple of science fiction, it's in Starship Troopers, Treasure Planet, Wrath of Khan, it's the main theme from Dune...

or finally *"I to II"* (C to D) that gives you Yoda's Theme, it's the start of the Flying Theme from ET, and Fawkes's Theme from Harry Potter 2, and iirc a theme from How To Train Your Dragon.

From a certain perspective these are all cheap tricks; from another perspective, nothing is cheap if it works, if it moves an audience. 

What these progressions mostly have in common is they're a little out of the ordinary, they take you one step outside the major/minor scale. The question is can you JUSTIFY using a particular chord in a particular place. To do that you need a *chord/scale system*, which relates your horizontal and vertical organization of pitch into one system. 

So harmony really comes back to scales. _-) 

The simplest chord-scale system is diatonicism, just using the notes of one scale. So if you're just using the major scale you can justify I ii iii IV V vi vii* because those chords are the product of your scale.

But you can stretch beyond that, because if you're in C major you can also borrow chords from C natural minor, C Mixolydian, C Lydian, C octatonic, and so on. This gives you lots of colorful chords like bIII, bVI, bVII, iv, v, II, #IV, VI and more. 

So what I think is it's not enough to know counterpoint, you have to know the chord/scalar resources available that can create many other "colors" besides C major. Otherwise you will be forever stuck in Beethoven Mode. 

The more you study this stuff the more it will really be *demystifying* for you as it was for me, cuz you'll discover that there is no secret special sauce. Everyone is using the same language pretty much. Like if you take a great kick-butt score like Ramin Djawadi's Pacific Rim, it's NOT that Djawadi has some secret ingredient in his harmony, far from it, in fact the Main Title of this score is practically a collage of chord progressions that have been bouncing around Hollywood (and Remote specifically) for AGES. By far, what sets this score apart is RD's consummate skill in orchestrating and producing to create an impactful mix. 

So in a way, harmony is the easiest part of music. Sure there's stuff you need to learn, but it's not a _bottomless-pit-of-things-to-learn-oh-god-how-can-I-keep-up_... like mixing and post-production. :shock:


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## tokatila (Apr 10, 2015)

Stradibaldi @ Fri Apr 10 said:


> The advice I can offer is the more you transcribe the more you will see the SAME tricks being used over and over.



Yeah, and 99.9% of the audience won't notice that. :mrgreen:


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## impressions (Apr 10, 2015)

simon, here are a few options:
1. try to find the progressions from the stuff you know already. and play the chords instead of the counter point left hand part.

2. how is your ear in terms of harmony? take out by ear everything you can. whether its a pop song, or classical progression. jazz tunes will be harder if you don't know what you're doing, or know the sound of septichords and their tensions. so stick to whats close to you in genre, or simpler in other genres.

try to figure out the best possible chord for the harmony you hear. that will give you loads of inspiration. not because you nailed it right(if you did) but because you didn't-and evoked all kind of harmonic subs that might work, and get you closer to the real harmony played.

every great master learned by ear. it is the best tool for musicians, better than any book. its like the phrase- a picture is worth 1000 words.


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## davidburns134 (Apr 16, 2015)

Chord sequences by themselves have limited effect. Some, but not complete.

Melody by itself has a slightly stronger effect.

The combination of the two is the trick.

Take melodies (heck, even famous ones) and work on reharmonising them and seeing what you can do. Simple is good to start with. Bach Chorales are an awesome way to learn, because you want to create tension then resolve it, by and large (but not necessarily)...the reason Bach Chorales have been such a long standing music education tool is that they're masterclasses in control of harmonic tension and release, without the constraint of harmonic rhythm (because the harmonic rhythm is pretty much always the same, one per melody note). 

Until you have basic control of a car (which really isn't that easy, there's a lot of hand-eye coordination) it's hard to do a power slide. Similarly, until you have basic control over harmony - say, four bars, go from root to a position of tension and then four bars back to resolve...it's going to be really hard to write compelling harmonic passages. not impossible, just harder.


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## davidburns134 (Apr 16, 2015)

ps, if you learned counterpoint - man, you already did the difficult bit!
Counterpoint is MUCH harder...


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## Dan Mott (Apr 16, 2015)

davidburns134 @ Fri Apr 17 said:


> ps, if you learned counterpoint - man, you already did the difficult bit!
> Counterpoint is MUCH harder...



+1

Counterpoint is tough to learn


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## synergy543 (Apr 16, 2015)

Download *https://archive.org/details/harmonielehre00schgoog (Schoenberg's Theory of Harmony)* and skip the hundreds of pages of text and start looking at the examples such as on p.286. Play through these and a see if they don't inspire some harmonic ideas.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Apr 16, 2015)

synergy543 @ Fri 17 Apr said:


> Download *https://archive.org/details/harmonielehre00schgoog (Schoenberg's Theory of Harmony)* and skip the hundreds of pages of text and start looking at the examples such as on p.286. Play through these and a see if they don't inspire some harmonic ideas.



The chapter on Choral Harmonization?


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## synergy543 (Apr 16, 2015)

SimonCharlesHanna @ Thu Apr 16 said:


> synergy543 @ Fri 17 Apr said:
> 
> 
> > Download *https://archive.org/details/harmonielehre00schgoog (Schoenberg's Theory of Harmony)* and skip the hundreds of pages of text and start looking at the examples such as on p.286. Play through these and a see if they don't inspire some harmonic ideas.
> ...


Actually, all the examples are in 4-part harmony and just reading through any of them I find inspiring. Forget that they are in 4-part choral harmony but look at the harmonic structure and extract and adapt from that. 

However, I actually meant to direct you to the Chapter on Modulations starting with II, V and IV (My book is in English this German version is disorienting to me). Take a look at p.333 and beyond, these modulations are very intriguing. Some work better than others but they are great inspiration. Find the ones you like and dissect them. Find out why you like them and play them in various keys and use as material for generating your own patterns. You'll start to see common tools he uses for modulation that you can also utilize. If you study what he's doing, rather than just copying his examples, you'll be far better off as you can then easily create your own patterns. And after going through these, you can't come back and tell me your chord progressions suck! You'll have a million modulation tools and devices to work with. Enjoy!


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Apr 17, 2015)

I am just going through the book again - I remember why I gave up on this book in the first place. There's so much philosophy, confusing juxtaposition, and flowery explanations; it is really painful.

I'll still keep going through it but I must ask, is there another - more straightforward - harmony book that is as profound as this one?


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## synergy543 (Apr 17, 2015)

SimonCharlesHanna @ Fri Apr 17 said:


> I am just going through the book again - I remember why I gave up on this book in the first place. There's so much philosophy, confusing juxtaposition, and flowery explanations; it is really painful.
> 
> I'll still keep going through it but I must ask, is there another - more straightforward - harmony book that is as profound as this one?


Music is music, and the harmony books just analyze it. Ideally, you'd listen to what you like, get the score, and analyze it yourself. This is how I learn the most. The books are just doing it for you. The safest bet might be Piston's Harmony, as is quite complete. It covers traditional music. For more "interesting" and further out there, try Persichecetti's Twentieth Century Harmony. Neither of these will teach you film music or JW style orchestration as film music also incorporates more contemporary trends such as utilizing Jazz chords and such. So its best to go to the source of the music you like and study that (but it helps to know what you're listening too - thus the books). Despite what everyone says, there are good resources for film music (Omini publishing is great) as are the John Williams scores. And there is also older material that is available through printed scores or on IMSLP which are great resources as well.

What music do you like? Or what are you trying to learn? I can't emphasis enough how important it is to get those scores and rip them apart (copy, analyze, mockup, transcribe). Find out what how its constructed. And yeah, that takes some work but its great fun too and tremendously rewarding.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Apr 17, 2015)

Ravel is my fav.
Debussy, Stravinsky, Copland, JW, Yoshihisa Hirano (Death Note), Joe Hisaishi, Brahms, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, Jeremy Soule etc etc etc.

I love extended harmony and beautiful melody lines (the kind that feel like composer is conversing with you, rather than hearing a set of notes in succession; it's kinda hard to explain).

It sounds like the twentieth century harmony book may be more up my alley.


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## ed buller (Apr 17, 2015)

Hi Simon

This is a problem that I have wrestled with....the books didn't help really ( except the very obscure ones ). Perhaps if you gave me an example of a chord progression that you've heard that you'd like to be able to write with ease but can't , I can give you my opinion....which may be useless.....

all the best

e


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## Living Fossil (Apr 17, 2015)

SimonCharlesHanna @ Fri Apr 10 said:


> I approached my teacher with the same issue and he asked me why I even want to change chords - more a philosophical question rather than a technical one.
> 
> the core of my problem is that I do no grasp chord (emotional) *function* properly which is why I get stuck. I know the basics of leading tones, dominant chords etc. but only in a predominantly technical sense.




Your teacher said something with more importance as you probably realize.
You should make yourself aware of the fact that lots of music (specially outside but also inside the European tradition) use a bordun (i.e. one constant harmonic centre) rather than harmonic changes. Personally, i appreciate this kind of music in lots of situations.
(take a great traditional japanese or chinese melody and harmonize it with some "functional" chords and you'll get some cheezy China-Restaurant-Muzak)


The other thing is that with the "function".

Functional harmony is a system which is a system. it's not truth.
It's a way of looking at music.
The problem is that people who learned it think that they now "understand" harmony.
Which is usually wrong.
They say: well, yes, in order to get to the tonic, use the Dominant.
But that's only one half of the truth.
A real composer doesn't use the Dominant to get to the tonic.
He uses the Dominant because at that place he wants the sound of the Dominant.
And afterwards he doesn't resolve it to the Tonic because he is the slave of some 
hidden laws of nature.
No, he resolves it to the tonic because in that situation he wishes to do this.
Often, because it's a convention we are used to.
And sometimes he doesn't resolve it to the tonic.
Because he didn't wanted the tonic to follow.
And very often, a composer wants to get to the tonic without the Dominant.
There are tons of fantastic music with plagale cadences (IV- I etc).
One has to realize that functional harmony is only one tool.
It's useful to see the skeleton that great music has in common with bad music.
People who think that it can really "explain" why Bach's music is great, or Schubert's are ignoring 95%.

It's important to realize that.
Probably the root of your problem lies in the fact that inside you feel:
"all this strength and logic of functional harmony, i don't get it"
And you're right. 
It's conventions, it's possible tendencies, but it's no law of nature.

So, get your ears trained, and write the music you hear inside!


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## ed buller (Apr 17, 2015)

This is all very true. Analysis in music can be a very tiresome affair and offers no guarantee that you will be able to apply the rules and write good music. This is particularly evident with music written from the late 19th Century onwards. Which is very annoying as this is the music we most often deal with. So rather than try and break things down to a set of rules , which can be applied with consistent results try and absorb music ( physically under your fingers ) that ticks your boxes. You WILL reach a tipping point where you can write in the style you want. Ravel and Debussy are hard...their piano music particularly fearsome but there are some simple ones. A lot of it is their use of modes and non standard chord progressions. You will have a huge leap when you move out of standard major and minor scales. Try Ukrainian Dorian !......i's ace . A big fav of John Williams . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Dorian_scale

The chords built on this scale give a totally different flavour than a normal scale . The first is minor , but the next two are Maj. Then Dim , Min , Dim and then Maj . Or build just Maj chords on it...or minor ....both fav tricks of Debussy and Ravel. These progression to me are the meat and potatoes of cinematic sounding music. Rather than look at functional harmony. Look at Harmony created from scales and intervals . Don't think about Tonic, Dominant any more !


Hope that helps

e


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## Pysmythe (Apr 17, 2015)

SimonCharlesHanna @ Fri Apr 10 said:


> Thank you everyone for the wonderful and varied responses.
> 
> 
> I approached my teacher with the same issue and he asked me why I even want to change chords - more a philosophical question rather than a technical one.
> ...



Sounds like you're more interested now in "telling a story" of some sort than in "pure application," which I think I can personally relate to a lot. I'm more interested in that, too, and, after all, that's what all the theory-learning is ultimately about, isn't it, to help you be able to do that? Some people actually feel "freed up" by the "restrictions" of some particular form, but, if I really do understand you correctly, maybe you could concoct a story outline/plot in your head, or just maybe even write a little or a lot of it down, and then have that as a framework for helping you to figure out a more satisfying musical narrative? Almost like a tone-poem based on some story or other, to help you with the dramatic arc, know better where everything should be, the emotional high-points, etc. Although I haven't actually written any words down, an approach very similar to this has been helping me out lately with what I want to do, but, then again, I'm only composing for myself, so my stories can be pretty unrestricted.


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## impressions (Apr 17, 2015)

Pysmythe @ Fri Apr 17 said:


> SimonCharlesHanna @ Fri Apr 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you everyone for the wonderful and varied responses.
> ...



join the nearest playback theater group near you.
you won't believe how fast you need to find a good chord change that fits the mood of the story, and how well you can improve your "emotional" composing, if that is any definition.

Nothing beats jumping straight into the water and learning to swim o-[][]-o


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## Farkle (Apr 17, 2015)

Double agree with the post above. I was the pianist/accompanist for an improv theater troupe for 7 years. It's basically a modern day "silent film" piano player job. You get real fast at grabbing musical structures that convey an emotion, a bit of drama, etc. Find an improv troupe, or offer to sit in on improv classes and accompany for free.

And, just like Mike Verta says, transcribe. Transcribe. Transcribing will let you reverse engineer an emotion or a feeling, in the space of an hour or two. For example, I transcribed sections of Copland's Appalachian Spring, to understand that Americana sound. 2-3 afternoons of transccribing (and not that many bars), and now I have that in my lexicon. 

Plus, instead of reading dry texts, you're spending your time listening to amazing music, written by masters, that touches your soul. Not a bad way to become a better composer, right? 

Mike


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## skyy38 (Feb 3, 2016)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> The worst is that I have spend so much time (at the beginning of every new piece) playing the same crap on the keyboard over and over again to the point where if I hear a minor or major chord in root position I am like..Bleeeeeeeeeeeuuuuuughhhhh
> 
> I try to plan out as much as possible but I must be doing something wrong.
> 
> ...



Playing only root position chords, one after the other, will just make you sound like a 2nd grade piano student. It doesn't make for smooth transitions either

For example, if you play a C major triad then drop down to a G major triad, well, that sounds too simplistic.

However, if you take that same C triad and play it as a II inversion ( g,c,e ) then the G triad actually sounds better than it did before.

http://i-love-guitar.com/im/chords/chordinversionsymbols/triad-inversions.png

You'll want to investigate block chords also:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Block_chord


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## novaburst (Feb 7, 2016)

Hi I have a question on chords. I saw this thread on chords so stops me opening a new thread.

My question : is I am doing a chord progression in the Key of C minor.

The progression starts with C min to the a small Eb maj then to F then to D min and ends on G min then the progression starts again The progression is 4/4.

What I am finding in the progression is when I play the F chord I am finding it sounds better with the F maj rather than the F min this problem could be me wanting it to fit. 

Can I ask some one if you have the time to do this progression with the piano and tell me what F you prefer.
Some times I use D min as passing not to E

I am really looking for some ones thought on the F chord 

Thanks in advance


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## cAudio (Feb 7, 2016)

If you're playing a F major chord you are doing a chord progression in C dorian. I often prefer dorian before minor (aeolian) but its all about context and what the melody dictates. I think that dorian gives a lighter sound than regular minor. If you also use a D minor chord, this also suggests dorian. In minor it would be D diminished. Hope this helps!


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## d.healey (Feb 7, 2016)

Use both, the first time play it one way, the second time play it the other. It will make your music more interesting without you having to alter the melody.


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## novaburst (Feb 7, 2016)

@cAudio Thanks for the advice very helpful,

@d.healey never thought of that I think this is the rout I will take,

I think there is a possibility that I have stumbled on a progression that has both minor and major key involved.

I am very happy for your input.

Thanks.


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## ed buller (Feb 12, 2016)

try not to get to hung up on major or minor , keys and so forth. If it sounds good to you trust your instincts and use it. Having faith in your choices is far more important than being correct.

e


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## novaburst (Feb 12, 2016)

ed buller said:


> try not to get to hung up on major or minor , keys and so forth. If it sounds good to you trust your instincts and use it. Having faith in your choices is far more important than being correct.
> 
> e



Thanks for that, thanks for your help


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## Vin (Feb 12, 2016)

I always start simple:

Naturally, I leads to any chord. ii goes to IV, V, vii°. III to ii, IV, vi and V to I etc.

Then I try different, non-diatonic chords, like using iv or v in major scale or vice versa. Then I use borrowed chords. Then spice it with 7th, 9th, sus2 & sus4. Also, some simpler compound chords (for example D/A etc.) work great.

The possibilities are endless. Analyze the work you love, learn and make something yours.


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## Russell Moran (Feb 12, 2016)

* Choose a song that has an interesting chord progression.
* Steal it.
* later - work out the relationship of the chords.


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## Vin (Feb 12, 2016)

novaburst said:


> Hi I have a question on chords. I saw this thread on chords so stops me opening a new thread.
> 
> My question : is I am doing a chord progression in the Key of C minor.
> 
> ...



I prefer the F major, but I also kind of prefer the G major instead of minor, although minor sounds right as well.


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## Lassi Tani (Feb 12, 2016)

Check out this: http://mdecks.com/mapharmony.phtml#description. I'm using it, if I get stuck.

Also the workbooks are useful and his Youtube videos.


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## novaburst (Feb 12, 2016)

Vin said:


> I always start simple:
> 
> Naturally, I leads to any chord. ii goes to IV, V, vii°. III to ii, IV, vi and V to I etc.
> 
> ...



This progression is nice thanks for the help @sekkosiki thanks for the link


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## waveheavy (Mar 1, 2016)

I had a class at Berklee School of Music under Hollywood composer Ben Newhouse. Lot of the movie scores we studied (Williams, Sylvestri, Howard, etc.) didn't always use chords in the traditional harmony sense, but in a chord relation sense. They used quite a bit of chord pairings that fulfilled a certain emotion needed for the piece, like a I - bIII - I, or I - bVI - I, relationships that don't really follow traditional chord analysis.

What I suggest, is discover chord pairings through study, and label the emotion you think they invoke, then catalogue them for future use in your compositions. 

Here's an example of a piece I wrote using just chord relationships, paying a lot of attention to voice leading.

https://dpwaveheavy.bandcamp.com/


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## ed buller (Mar 1, 2016)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> I am just going through the book again - I remember why I gave up on this book in the first place. There's so much philosophy, confusing juxtaposition, and flowery explanations; it is really painful.
> 
> I'll still keep going through it but I must ask, is there another - more straightforward - harmony book that is as profound as this one?



Yes. Rimsky-Korsakov. Read up on "False Progressions"

e


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## novaburst (Mar 1, 2016)

waveheavy said:


> I had a class at Berklee School of Music under Hollywood composer Ben Newhouse. Lot of the movie scores we studied (Williams, Sylvestri, Howard, etc.) didn't always use chords in the traditional harmony sense, but in a chord relation sense. They used quite a bit of chord pairings that fulfilled a certain emotion needed for the piece, like a I - bIII - I, or I - bVI - I, relationships that don't really follow traditional chord analysis.
> 
> What I suggest, is discover chord pairings through study, and label the emotion you think they invoke, then catalogue them for future use in your compositions.
> 
> ...



nice piece of music, very complex it sounds it did go into another dimension, thats what I felt also stamps the mark that music has no limits, I was reading an artificial, not sure if it was about Beethoven but it was saying how he played music (orchestra) according to the movement of the cosmos, solar system, planets


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