# Those "generic" "Zimmer" spiccato patterns.....!!!



## TomMartin (Oct 26, 2012)

Bit of a rant.

Something that doesn't sit well with me...

Sometimes when writing, I like to use short articulations on the strings. Sometimes even spiccato.... WHY should I be made to feel like a Hans Zimmer copycat everytime I come up with ostinati with spicc. strings?! 

Recently on here I came across a youtube video, demonstrating a track that didn't use any of that "generic spiccato" stuff....

Never once did he mention all the generic long note legato strings, all the generic violin/flute unisons, the generic use of drums as some kind of percussive rhythmic tool etc....

Why single any one of these devices out to be avoided? We're writing for instruments that have been around FAR too long to have ground breaking innovative techniques still yet to be discovered. Should we all just quit writing then? Why can't we just carry on using devices and techniques because we like how they sound, making them personal to us however we see fit, without being made to feel bad about it because someone more famous than us also uses similar techniques?

Or am I wrong?


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## reddognoyz (Oct 26, 2012)

I live and die by the spic string patterns for action sequences, they're the obvious choice and easy and get the job done. It's like adding a heavy guitar chug pattern to a metal or hardcore track. How many songs in those genres DON'T have that chug chug chug guitar thing going.


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## TomMartin (Oct 26, 2012)

reddognoyz @ Fri Oct 26 said:


> I live and die by the spic string patterns for action sequences, they're the obvious choice and easy and get the job done. It's like adding a heavy guitar chug pattern to a metal or hardcore track. How many songs in those genres DON'T have that chug chug chug guitar thing going.



Another great example. I come from a metal guitar background, so I naturally gravitated towards that kind of sound long before I knew what exactly I was doing, and who else was doing it.


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## TomMartin (Oct 26, 2012)

Not to mention the low brass stabs as well...sometimes it's like I'm trying to create that overdriven guitar chuggy sound with orchestral instruments and it works surprisingly well. You have the clean attack of the root in the celli/bass, and the harsh overtones from the brass really do a good job of taking care of the distorted/overdriven sound you get on the harmonics of the guitar "chug".

It's the bassic principle of sticking a tube screamer pedal before the first gain stage of your guitar amp. You boost the mids and treble so they overdrive easily leaving the bass clean and percussive. Low strings + loud brass....similar effect. But I digress...

Anyway THAT's nothing new either...real orchestra's have been making that sound since waaay before guitars were making that sound....

I guess we really should just all quit.


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## Darthmorphling (Oct 26, 2012)

I honestly feel that some people have no concept of decorum. I passionately dislike country music, but my kids and wife love it. Do I make them feel bad about that? Of course not.

The beautiful thing about music is that everyone has their preferences and there is always someone who will write music that will appeal to them. 

If you don't like it, don't listen.

When I started to get into this type of music I tried to stay away from my guitar, because I wanted to break out of my metal background. However, I am slowly realizing that the film/game music I enjoy the most could easily be played by a metal band. It has that same chuggy riff style that I enjoy on guitar. Why not write on the guitar?

sarcasm alert,

I should definately stop writing my strings in octaves as John Williams uses that technique and I only want to be original. :roll: 

sacrasm off


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 26, 2012)

Without commenting on this technique specifically, surely however some things can become cliches. Personally, I am getting tired of every comedy composer employing pizzicato strings as an "instant funny" device.

Not to say I will never use it again  :twisted:


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## reddognoyz (Oct 26, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Oct 26 said:


> Without commenting on this technique specifically, surely however some things can become cliches. Personally, I am getting tired of every comedy composer employing pizzicato strings as an "instant funny" device.
> 
> Not to say I will never use it again  :twisted:




NO NO NO!! pizz strings= rye wit at best. perhaps sophisticated levity....

xylo's with four mallets, in rapidly alternating -2nds an 8va apart. now THAT's comedy baby!!!


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## Resoded (Oct 26, 2012)

I love spiccato patterns. There's a reason why everyone uses them so often! I'm still learning and experimenting, but I try to avoid the Zimmer 16ths alternating between two notes just because of how often it is used. When it comes to what people think of my music, I think I'm hardened from my years in metal since most people despise extreme metal, so I just do what I feel will be best for my piece. Even if it means doing what's popular.


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## Leosc (Oct 26, 2012)

TomMartin @ Fri Oct 26 said:


> Never once did he mention all the generic long note legato strings, all the generic violin/flute unisons, the generic use of drums as some kind of percussive rhythmic tool etc....



Let's not confuse things here. You're talking about orchestration there - legato strings and/in unisons are a means of carrying melody or harmony. Also, I'm quite sure if you were to ask that same person, he would disdain the sole use of drums as means of carrying rhythm as well (I'm only guessing though). 
From what I understand, Hans was probaby inspired by his synth work, and translated the step sequenced and arpeggiated synths into the strings. And yes, indeed, Hans was one of the composers who popularized the use of spiccato patterns. I might be wrong, but I don't recall the heavy use of spiccato patterns as a main means of establishing rhythm in either film or concert music before Hans came into the picture.




> Why single any one of these devices out to be avoided? We're writing for instruments that have been around FAR too long to have ground breaking innovative techniques still yet to be discovered. Should we all just quit writing then?



No, but innovative techniques have rarely been a requirement for good music, or indeed, great art in general. It's what you do with them. It's about the content, a musical idea - but when people start using and overusing the same rhythmic device you use, then you can have even invented it, it still becomes the definition of "generic", as unfair as that may be... just look at the Alberti bass.


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## MacQ (Oct 26, 2012)

Nothing wrong with them! 

If they're not saying anything harmonically, they can get a little ... hmm ... Philip Glass-y, but if they're built around a "pop song for orchestra" arrangement, it's super satisfying on a visceral level. 

What I like about this style is that it's super digestible for audiences, is incredibly versatile underscoring a huge array of dramatic material, and can be used really well to take an aching melody to a new and higher climax.

By way of example ...

"Chevaliers de Sangreal", that cue Hans did for the end of "The Da Vinci Code". The string ostinato isn't worth anything without the melody. The juxtaposition of the relentless pulse against the soaring violins is the zeitgeist of that cue, and it's such a pay-off of the theme, perfectly set at the final climax of the film. The melody doesn't pack a punch without the pulse. It's "just" pretty. But with that ostinato pattern ... wow.

So yeah, I don't think it's "string ostinato", I think it's just "ostinato" -- it's tribal and as old as time. Just make sure you write a great hook, and make liberal use of choir. People love that shit.


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## passenger57 (Oct 26, 2012)

> People love that shit.


Big LOL - so true - I'm just putting that on my business card from now on! =o _-)


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## Vdub (Oct 27, 2012)

sounds like one of those " don't try to reinvent the wheel" mottos.. Just stick to what works and make sure whatever going on around those spic strings are taking you on a new journey that Hans haven't lol... to me it's like yo, why do we always have eggs with our grits, because it just works lol.. maybe we should have bbq baked beans with grits and see what happens lol


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## bryla (Oct 27, 2012)

Acall @ Fri Oct 26 said:


> I might be wrong, but I don't recall the heavy use of spiccato patterns as a main means of establishing rhythm in either film or concert music before Hans came into the picture.


well except maybe Mozart's Symphony no. 40 1. mvmt.


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## Leosc (Oct 27, 2012)

bryla @ Sat Oct 27 said:


> well except maybe Mozart's Symphony no. 40 1. mvmt.



It's nice to see that you took the time and came up with one example. However, I can't agree with that one: It's not even marked staccato, let alone spiccato. Also, as accompaniment for the first theme, it's only 12 bars long (although it repeats over the course of the first movement of course).


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## Stephen Baysted (Oct 27, 2012)

bryla @ Sat Oct 27 said:


> Acall @ Fri Oct 26 said:
> 
> 
> > I might be wrong, but I don't recall the heavy use of spiccato patterns as a main means of establishing rhythm in either film or concert music before Hans came into the picture.


well except maybe Mozart's Symphony no. 40 1. mvmt.[/quote


I think Vivaldi had it covered well before Mozart. :wink:


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## TomMartin (Oct 27, 2012)

Vdub @ Sat Oct 27 said:


> sounds like one of those " don't try to reinvent the wheel" mottos.. Just stick to what works and make sure whatever going on around those spic strings are taking you on a new journey that Hans haven't lol... to me it's like yo, why do we always have eggs with our grits, because it just works lol.. maybe we should have bbq baked beans with grits and see what happens lol



No no, not at all, I would never encourage anyone NOT to try something new BUT

I would also never encourage anyone to go out of their way to avoid doing something they want to do, just because it does work.

And I would encourage listeners to not jump at the chance to criticise someones work for using a technique that gets used a lot. How about listening to, and evaluating the piece based purely on what the piece is, and not based on what other peoples compositions are?

Obviously aside from directly copying others work and passing it off as your own, I think we should all compose however we see fit, using whatever techniques we enjoy using and whatever carries the music to where you wanted it to go. AND on top of that, I think we deserve to be critiqued based on what our music sounds like, and not whether or not someone else once did something similar. If we worried about every part sounding similar to anything anyone else has ever done before you, I think productivity would end up being pretty fucking low!!!


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## TomMartin (Oct 27, 2012)

Stephen Baysted @ Sat Oct 27 said:


> bryla @ Sat Oct 27 said:
> 
> 
> > Acall @ Fri Oct 26 said:
> ...



When I listen to classic FM, I hear spics all over the place! And I just think Mozart....Vivaldi....shame on you, you Hans Zimmer rip offs!


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## Darthmorphling (Oct 27, 2012)

The human brain is a fascinating piece of machinery. It is capable of doing so much and I truly believe most people never tap into their true potential. As miraculous as the brain is, most often it processes information in definable ways. 

My guess is that most people here have learned how to play their chosen instrument by learning other people's music. It's natural to emulate what you like to listen to. Learning composition is the same thing. People have studied theory and musical pieces written by others. Synthesizing that information and making it your own is what is important.

I love spiccatos and I love how John Williams writes his string lines. I like the percussive aspects of Zimmer's works and the way that Silvestri writes for brass. I do not want to sound like them, but since they are influencing how I am learning, some if their tendencies will show up. There is nothing wrong with that.


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## park bench (Oct 27, 2012)

"there is nothing new under the sun, but that is okay because nobody really remembers the old."
Saying spiccato string patterns is Hans Zimmer trademark may be true, but that doesn't keep anyone else from using spiccato strings.

As Mr Zimmer has said in almost every post he has made on this forum: "You can't sound like me any more legitimately than I can sound like any other composer."


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## musophrenic (Oct 27, 2012)

I think if composers become too afraid to use string spiccatos for fear of being judged as HZ copycats, NI would really be struggling to sell Action Strings  If it works, it works. 

I was attending a classical concert a couple of weeks ago, with a program that had Beethoven and IIRC Tchaikovsky ... they both had the exact same low rhythmic strings driving them and many other string devices in common with today's hybrid orchestral compositions. These are all devices, means to specific ends, and they're available to use. 

I think one of the more important things to concern ourselves about as composers is expanding our personal vocabularies of these devices, actively looking to pieces of music and composers we enjoy and understanding what it is about the devices they use that grabs us. You don't steal a device from another composer - you use it, you grow, you develop, and you make something new out of it. It's just like learning instruments - new techniques are learned by directly mimicking them to start with, and once they're comfortable under your fingers (or lips or feet or whatever you use to play the instrument), they're devices available for you to use and develop in creative ways.

And if you can invent new devices to use, well then, power to you! 

My 1/5 of a dime.


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## Alex Cuervo (Oct 28, 2012)

I think it really boils down to whether you're writing music to impress your peers or to impress your clients.

If you can write something you're satisfied with that your clients like and will continue to come back for, then who cares what other composers think?

I don't write for composers - I write for directors.


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## Bunford (Oct 28, 2012)

Anyone who criticises is a numpty!

It's a playing style that's been used well before Zimmer came along. True, he's impressively created his own platform to make it 'his' sound, but that's not to say he owns it and nobody else can use it. 

Everyone should write parts and use the articulations that best fit and work for them parts, whether it's spiccato, legato, staccato or whatever. Anyone who talks derogatively about you using xxxx style cos you're copying xxxx is a twonk. 

"No, I use it cos it's what sounds good in MY song!!!!"


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