# Classical music similar to Lord of the Rings (Howard Shore) - for study and learning purposes



## pulpfiction (Jan 1, 2022)

Hi,

I am interested in the music style of Howard Shore (Lord of the Rings) or in this fantasy music (epic/medieval/mythological) area.
And I would like to write something similar. For this purpose, I would look for specific composers and pieces of music that I could study to master this style.
If I am not mistaken, this music could be described as late romantic with influences from European folk music.

And the following composers, according to my research so far, go in this direction:

Vaughan Williams
Dvorak
Sibelius
Mahler
Wagner
Holst
Rachmaninoff
Mendelssohn Bartholdy

Which (composer/style/concrete songs) do you think is most in keeping with the style of LOTR?
Are there perhaps also songs in LOTR (as in John Williams Star Wars) which clearly correspond to a classical song (classical in the broader sense).

Thanks!


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## mybadmemory (Jan 1, 2022)

Studying "fantasy-oriented" composition and orchestration


Ok this is very broad and maybe a stupid question, bear with me. I've been listening to a lot of demos of ProjectSAM's Lumina. For example I think I've mostly talked myself out of buying Lumina, but I am left with some burning questions. When folks are playing the "stories" patches they...




vi-control.net


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## pulpfiction (Jan 1, 2022)

mybadmemory said:


> Studying "fantasy-oriented" composition and orchestration
> 
> 
> Ok this is very broad and maybe a stupid question, bear with me. I've been listening to a lot of demos of ProjectSAM's Lumina. For example I think I've mostly talked myself out of buying Lumina, but I am left with some burning questions. When folks are playing the "stories" patches they...
> ...


Hi,

good advices!

But maybe there are still people who can think of something specific to LOTR and Howard Shore?

Thanks!


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## AllanH (Jan 1, 2022)

Regarding Howard Shore and LOTR. I would suggest the following starting point (the link below). HS also wrote a concert version, i.e. shorter, of many of the core themes. That must be available as sheet music somewhere.

The Music of The Lord of the Rings Films: A Comprehensive Account of Howard Shore's Scores


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## pulpfiction (Jan 1, 2022)

AllanH said:


> Regarding Howard Shore and LOTR. I would suggest the following starting point (the link below). HS also wrote a concert version, i.e. shorter, of many of the core themes. That must be available as sheet music somewhere.
> 
> The Music of The Lord of the Rings Films: A Comprehensive Account of Howard Shore's Scores


Ok thanks. But I think, that's not what I am looking for. To much background-information.

I would be very grateful if anyone had similar songs from the great masters in mind.


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## Gil (Jan 1, 2022)

Hello,
You should look at the book The Music of https://www.amazon.com/Music-Lord-Rings-Films-Comprehensive/dp/0739071572 (The Lord of the Rings Films: A Comprehensive Account of Howard Shore's Scores).

You can also read this transcription for piano (including info about full orchestra instruments in it).

And you can buy these full orchestra suite arrangements or these ones.

Best regards,
Gil


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## Living Fossil (Jan 1, 2022)

I would add Bruckner to your list.

With regards to LOtR, his (fantastic) use of brass could be of focussed interest, also his usage of winds (and how he blends them with the brass).
Basically, you can't go wrong with any of his symphonies, Nr. 7 or Nr. 8 could be good starting points.


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## Gil (Jan 1, 2022)

pulpfiction said:


> I would be very grateful if anyone had similar songs from the great masters in mind.


I don't know if it can help you, but when I asked Mr Shore about masters that need to be studied, he answered Chostakovitch, Rachmaninoff, Prokofiev... many russian composers.
As the meeting was time (very) limited (1 mn), it was so quick that I hope I don't give you wrong names here


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## ed buller (Jan 1, 2022)

what are you hoping to learn, specifically ? Can you give an example of a particular cue from the movies that you'd like to study more ?

best

ed


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## Living Fossil (Jan 1, 2022)

...here's a link to Bruckner's 8th:



It's a piece bursting of amazing textures and ideas...


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## pulpfiction (Jan 1, 2022)

ed buller said:


> what are you hoping to learn, specifically ? Can you give an example of a particular cue from the movies that you'd like to study more ?
> 
> best
> 
> ed


I can't say exactly 
Just about everything of that style.
But I think orchestration in general.

Unfortunately, I realised too late that the old great works are the best for learning to compose (with everything that goes with it).

Unfortunately, I have spent far too many hours with Youtube videos and things like "Orchestration Recipes", modern soundtracks and incomplete music scores that you can find on the internet.
The problem with modern soundtracks is also that a lot of it is buried under synthesizers or other clouds of sound, making it harder to define (transcribe).

Of course, the things I just mentioned have also helped me a bit, but I think that if I pick older songs that I like and simply download the corresponding notes from "https://imslp.org/wiki/Main_Page", I can see much more precisely how something is done and I save myself the trouble of transcribing (which is of course also important sometimes).


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## pulpfiction (Jan 1, 2022)

Gil said:


> I don't know if it can help you, but when I asked Mr Shore about masters that need to be studied, he answered Chostakovitch, Rachmaninoff, Prokofiev... many russian composers.
> As the meeting was time (very) limited (1 mn), it was so quick that I hope I don't give you wrong names here


Thank you very much! The songs of these composers definitely have similarities with LOTR. Especially with the heroic parts.


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## pulpfiction (Jan 1, 2022)

Living Fossil said:


> ...here's a link to Bruckner's 8th:
> 
> 
> 
> It's a piece bursting of amazing textures and ideas...



Thanks! 
It's a shame that I hardly knew Bruckner before. I am overwhelmed!

I haven't listened to the whole thing yet, but I can definitely tell that it has great similarities to the style of LOTR.


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## Snarf (Jan 1, 2022)

Bruckner is definitely a good reference:


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## MusicIstheBest (Jan 1, 2022)

You have an excellent list. I would start with Mendelssohn, both Midsummer Night's Dream and Hebrides Overture - there are some wonderfully "lotr" moments within the former and more in the latter right from the opening. Then of course Wagner, specifically the Ring Cycle (4 operas) - LOTR soundtrack probably wouldn't exist without it. And Living Fossil's recommendation of Bruckner is solid, and is probably a better comparison in terms of brass writing. Dvorak's tone poems and opera "Rusalka", Vaughan Williams symphonies 1, 2, 3, and maybe 5, but definitely 7 since it's his score to the film Scot of the Antarctic.

Then there's "Kullervo" by Jean Sibelius. You're welcome lol. I think you'll be impressed if you're not familiar.
Bit of a warning, you might not be so impressed with LOTR soundtrack after studying these sources.


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## jbuhler (Jan 1, 2022)

Living Fossil said:


> I would add Bruckner to your list.
> 
> With regards to LOtR, his (fantastic) use of brass could be of focussed interest, also his usage of winds (and how he blends them with the brass).
> Basically, you can't go wrong with any of his symphonies, Nr. 7 or Nr. 8 could be good starting points.


Also much of contemporary music media relevance can be learned from the way Bruckner builds his climaxes. There’s an organ-like character to the way Bruckner assembles his orchestration that has affinities with working with and layering samples.


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## CT (Jan 1, 2022)

In addition to some of the fine suggestions already made (Sibelius, Bruckner, Holst, “The Russians”), don’t neglect some of the less obvious ones like Ligeti, Penderecki, Górecki, and Pärt.

To the contrary of an above post, you may find that exploring the origins of these flavors only increases your appreciation for Shore’s own execution and blend of them!


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## Alex Temple (Jan 2, 2022)

Not to get too granular with suggestions, but in addition to the great Bruckner symphonies listed above I’ve always found Bruckner’s 9th specifically to have a majestic but dark sense of scale that would absolutely be at home in any LOTR movie. The intro - after the long tonic pedal when the harmonies start pulling away - is one of my favorite moments in symphonic music, and the whole first movement has many standout “cinematic” moments. The Giulini/Vienna Phil recording is amazing, and has the most satisfyingly brutal renditions of the scherzo that I’ve heard.


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## RogiervG (Jan 2, 2022)

your ears? i mean, fantasy as genre doe not exist in terms of definition. 

Yes, you can be inspired by certains works of other composers, and use elements in your own (loosly based) etc..

But in the end it's just orchestration, like any other orchestral work.
Better learn orchestration techniques, etc.. and then go your own way sonically. Each composer has it's own ideas (even Howard), and let's his/her emotions dictate how to orchestrate a certain piece.

e.g. if you let J Williams score LOTR, you would get a completely different outcome, nothing near Howards ideas. Because Williams writes in HIS style.. and Howard in HIS own too...


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## pulpfiction (Jan 2, 2022)

RogiervG said:


> your ears? i mean, fantasy as genre doe not exist in terms of definition.
> 
> Yes, you can be inspired by certains works of other composers, and use elements in your own (loosly based) etc..
> 
> ...


Which resource for learning orchestration techniques would you suggest?


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## Casiquire (Jan 2, 2022)

pulpfiction said:


> Which resource for learning orchestration techniques would you suggest?


I agree that shoring up (lol see what i did there?) your studies of specific scores with general orchestral knowledge is exactly the right way to go. A really good resource for those fundamentals is Alan Belkin's YouTube playlist:



You'll get a lot of really good and practical information from the orchestration book by Kent Kennan and the book Creative Orchestration by George Frederick McKay. Both are pretty easy reads that i go back to from time to time over the years as a quick refresher.

Also when i was still getting comfortable with ranges and sweet spots of different instruments, I had a printed laminated copy of this reference handy. It's been floating around for a number of years and i still might glance at it for more obscure instruments or transpositions here and there.






Instrument Range and Characteristic Reference Chart


Hello, About 14 years ago I made reference chart for common orchestral instruments. You might find it useful. It shows the instrument ranges, transpositions, dynamic curves, timbral characteristics, techniques and restrictions. If printing, use A3 size only - it will be unreadable on A4 paper...




vi-control.net


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## Living Fossil (Jan 2, 2022)

RogiervG said:


> But in the end it's just orchestration, like any other orchestral work.
> Better learn orchestration techniques, etc.. and then go your own way sonically.



There is not a single relevant composer who hasn't carefully studied the orchestrations of other (relevant) composers.

Of course, at some point it's a good thing developing a personal style.
But if somebody tries it too early, he will end up with reinventing inferior versions of the wheel.

The problem with that overused urge to be "original" in a too early stadium is that if you don't put attention to things that already exist and study them carefully, you will imitate unconsciously what you've heard.

Therefore, the OP's question for works to study is a very good approach.


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## pulpfiction (Jan 3, 2022)

Alex Temple said:


> Not to get too granular with suggestions, but in addition to the great Bruckner symphonies listed above I’ve always found Bruckner’s 9th specifically to have a majestic but dark sense of scale that would absolutely be at home in any LOTR movie. The intro - after the long tonic pedal when the harmonies start pulling away - is one of my favorite moments in symphonic music, and the whole first movement has many standout “cinematic” moments. The Giulini/Vienna Phil recording is amazing, and has the most satisfyingly brutal renditions of the scherzo that I’ve heard.


Feel free to make any recommendations you can think of (even about the composers I mentioned only by name at the beginning).
I am happy about any, especially concrete ones.
I'm still looking for quiet passages with similar harmonies to LOTR....

I found the following articles with interviews (Shore):








Der Klang von Mittelerde


Die Musik zu "Der Herr der Ringe" gilt als Glanzleistung des Oscar-prämierten Komponisten Howard Shore. In der Philharmonie kann man das Werk nun live zum Film erleben




www.sueddeutsche.de




https://www.br-klassik.de/themen/klassik-entdecken/filmmusik/herr-der-ringe-soundtrack-wissen-100.html
Translated:
"The idea of working with leitmotifs comes from Wagner's concept. A wonderful idea that can be used to structure the gigantic world that Tolkien created. The musical leitmotifs help the audience to orientate themselves and to understand the different cultures of Middle Earth. At the beginning I approached it through Italian art, Puccini and Verdi, at the "Return of the King" I looked at Bruckner and at the end I wrote a passage that is a little bow to Wagner."

"Starting from "The Companions", Shore worked out a network of leitmotifs for the characters and places, for the Ring of course, and for the relationships between the characters, which he then developed further in the other films. In fact, there is also a lot of Verdi and Puccini in the score, and Shore borrowed the orchestration from Bruckner. For experts: listen to the end of the music for the long version of "Return of the King"; here Howard Shore quotes the end of Wagner's "Götterdämmerung"."

In summary:
Wagner - Leitmotif technique
Puccini and Verdi - 
Bruckner - Orchestration


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## Pier-V (Jan 3, 2022)

Ok, if I understand correctly you're searching for some practical advice that avoids the usual well known stuff.

This may be a good start for both chorale and dense counterpoint writing. It's also good for learning how to manage strings divisi:



This, instead, may or may not give you a good sense of how to process a "big theme" for brass and woodwinds without losing clarity. It's from Eric Whitacre, who is _alive _(so slightly off-topic), but it's still relevant to the conversation imho:



The next reference is for harmony specifically: 3rd movement to appreciate the power of deceptive cadences and 4th for *chromatic modulations to the mediant *and similiar. Those two are incredibly important to play with emotions the harsh way (rather than through the _lush_ way, so to speak):



There's still a lot more than I'm surely forgetting right now, if it comes to mind maybe I'll add in the future. Meanwhile, some feedback would be appreciated, especially to understand if I addressed this properly. I'm having lots of fun, and this is formative for me as well. Cheers!


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## pulpfiction (Jan 3, 2022)

Pier-V said:


> There's still a lot more than I'm surely forgetting right now, if it comes to mind maybe I'll add in the future. Meanwhile, some feedback would be appreciated, especially to understand if I addressed this properly. I'm having lots of fun, and this is formative for me as well. Cheers!


Thanks! This is exactly what I am looking for - especially the example of Williams and Whitcare



Pier-V said:


> Ok, if I understand correctly you're searching for some practical advice that avoids the usual well known stuff.


Yes. Perhaps to make it a little more precise: 
I'm looking for older works that are very similar to current film music (LOTR etc.). Since it is very easy to get the scores for old works, it is a good study option for me. I use this practically as an aid to getting better at writing more modern sounding pieces.
For many newer pieces, it will certainly take a few decades before the scores are freely available and, above all, correspond exactly to the original pieces of music.

Of course, I have nothing against more modern composers if the sheet music is freely available in high quality (Eric Whitacre)


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## jeremyr (Jan 3, 2022)

A composer I haven't seen mentioned yet is Alan Hovhaness. City of Light sounds like it could be from LotR:


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## pulpfiction (Jan 3, 2022)

jeremyr said:


> A composer I haven't seen mentioned yet is Alan Hovhaness. City of Light sounds like it could be from LotR:



Thanks! Definitely similarities...

I'm looking more for songs where the sheet music is freely available.

Something else I found:

02. English Folk Song Suite 26:00 March Intermezzo March



Example of including Folk in orchestra. I think, that also covers a part of LOTR (Shire, Hobbits etc.).


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## YaniDee (Jan 3, 2022)

Gil said:


> You should look at the book The Music of https://www.amazon.com/Music-Lord-Rings-Films-Comprehensive/dp/0739071572 (The Lord of the Rings Films: A Comprehensive Account of Howard Shore's Scores).


An Ashton Gleckman video on the LOR book mentioned above..not very technical, but may be of interest.


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## Pier-V (Jan 3, 2022)

@pulpfiction Thanks for the fast feedback! That means we can already go the extra mile 

So, first I'd like to talk about the impact a clever orchestration can have on what may appear just ""yet another"" piano composition.
This is _The girl with flaxen hair_, written by Debussy: at first glance the piano version seems very unrelated to what you're searching for, but listen to what happens to the climax at 1:18 in the orchestrated version.
You can nearly hear an echo of the Fellowship leitmotiv, even though both the melody and the harmony are completely different. That's because while the piano version puts the accent on melody and gesture, the orchestration emphasizes dynamics and the background material.
Oh, by the way, if I understand correctly this orchestration was made by John Williams in person... unfortunately the score isn't available on Youtube, but thankfully the piano version can be used for reference since the orchestration is pretty faithful to the original - think of it as a piano reduction.





- - - - - -

Interesting, right? _That was the premise_.

With the principle explained above in mind, my next actual reference is the Violin Concerto from Enojuhani Rautavaara, a very overlooked composer of great concert and symphonic music from the late 20th century.

This is an example of critical listening - below I included a timestamp log I just finished writing for the piece, both as a post and as an attachment.
Here's the catch: even though this composition is full of incredible moments, some of which left me literally speechless the first time, _that's not what I discuss in the timestamps_.
Instead, I *only* talked about things that could be potentially translated into a LotR style work.



- - - - - -

0:32 - Evocative mysterious melodic line

1:40 - Interesting harmonic movement and orchestral build-up

2:42 - Horn solo echoing the main theme

3:17 - Great example of not too dissonant non-functional harmony

4:35 - Lyrical variation on the main theme, treated from a counterpoint perspective

6:07 - How to reinforce strings chorale writing with a light touch of low woodwinds

8:42 - Stilistically relevant harmonic variation on the main theme

9:52 - Slow orchestral build-up WITHOUT making use of dinamics!

11:44 - Honestly, did you expect a marimba here? Friendly reminder to think outside of the box every now and then (LotR has a beautiful track for marimba and contrabassoon, too!)

14:10 - Fast orchestral build-up without abusing percussion

16:00 - Essential, but effective solo lyrical writing for winds supported by strings

19:19 (19:35) - Example of how even a cadenza can be useful. Extended technique of great effect for applied music.

20:22 - Non staccato/spiccato ostinati exist, too

21:58 - This may seem a simple harp glissando at first glance, but do you realize it echoes both the previous clarinet figuration AND the arpeggiated melodic variations of the main theme for the solo violin in the first movement (5:31)? Example of how everything should be used with a clear purpose in mind

Personally, I feel this kind of attitude is more important than gathering an endless bunch of material. Many other users suggested great works, too! This thread is probably a great source of information already.


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## pulpfiction (Jan 3, 2022)

Pier-V said:


> So, first....


Thank you for your valuable contributions. I will listen to it all when I have more time.

Your approach to critical listening is something I have thought about before. Thank you for your detailed example.


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