# Almost a real orchestra?



## Rowy (May 26, 2017)

I've been at it again. As some of you know I'm trying to have a virtual orchestra sound as a real symphony orchestra, and I'm getting close, I think .

Since I'm not into film music, I don't want to fiddle around with a lot of compression. Still, I would like to have the production sound a bit clearer and broader, and yet _classical_. You must be able to hear the instruments apart and together as a group.

This time I didn't use strings, because I wanted to concentrate on wind instruments. And I don't really like strings 

This one is called _Summer Forest_. It's finally warm here, so it seemed appropriate.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (May 26, 2017)

Getting close? Well..not for me at all..I mean that is no shame at all so no worries, but I just felt to tell you that.


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## Rowy (May 26, 2017)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Getting close? Well..not for me at all..I mean that is no shame at all so no worries, but I just felt to tell you that.



Thanks, Alexander. Would you be so kind to explain me where I got it wrong? I want to learn, so any advice is much appreciated.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (May 26, 2017)

Sure..there are some things where you could improve your rendering, but lets make it not too complicated, and so I pick just one specific thing out of it: You should use more of different articulations to sculpture the lines. Ecspecially when you work in a playful, delicate context like here.

Plus some more thinking: I feel a lack of dynamics in general in your piece, also is the tempo to steady and that is bound probably to the compositional aspect: You should let breath your music a little more which has also to do with resting notes. Like it is here, it sounds for me like a robotic jukebox performance.

You know there comes so many things what you have to take care of and so that is not easy at all. Also..I think the sound of the samples sometimes let the composition not shine, or it is maybe just they are not expressive enough. What are you using there?
Don´t take it negative..but this piece needs still some work I would say to make a better impression of the real thing.


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## Rowy (May 26, 2017)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> You know there comes so many things what you have to take care of and so that is not easy at all. Also..I think the samples sometimes sound very dated to my ears, or it is maybe just they are not expressive enough.
> Don´t take it negative..but this piece needs still some work I would say to make a better impression of the real thing.



Thank you, Alexander. This has been most helpful, especially your remarks on the lines. I've been so busy getting the overall sound good, that I forget to put more attention to the details.

There has been quite some editing on the lines though, but I guess I've been too careful. Subtle changes might be too subtle. Your remark on the dynamics is interesting. I'm more interested in polyphonic music, but I don't want to write for a virtual orchestra, unless I get the instruments right. Nevertheless, it is clear that I'm not a romantic and therefore shy away from dramatic accents, like a rubato or dynamics.

Perhaps it is better to leave the 'seasonal' stuff behind me and get back in my comfort zone. I do think I can't change much about the instruments. There are really good. Berlin Woodwinds, ProjectSam, Sample Modelling for the trumpet, Nimbus for the reverb. I've tried Spitfire and the likes, but they do not appeal to me. The only strings I like are NI Session Pro Strings. However, they are ideal for polyphonic music (as is Berlin's First Chairs) and not so for romantic music.

Again, thank you.


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## markleake (May 26, 2017)

Alexander is right. To my ears it needs a lot more work to sound convincingly "real". Currently they don't sound at all like a real player would play them because of the lack of expression or change in attack, etc. Don't let that put you off trying though, it is a good and exciting challenge to face. Composing for orchestra can be great fun! 

Also, you'll need to get over your reluctance of using strings. They are a core part of the orchestral sound, and very hard to avoid. What do you dislike about strings?

And I'm curious... what makes you like NI Session Pro Strings, but dislike other string libraries?


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## Tatu (May 26, 2017)

Thinking in terms of arcs (breaths) is a good way to start when writing - programming - for wind instruments; sort of fade in fade out phrases. Sometimes CC1 doesn't necessarily cut it, so it's good to ad a little bit of CC11/7 in there as well. It's not how reality works (multiple players sharing passages, good lungs etc), but it's a good starting point.

Mix wise I'd say it's good. After all, world is full of different kind of mixes of orchestral music, so there really isn't right or wrong when the basics are correct, just our references. Once you got the programming right, the rest takes care of itself.


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## Paul T McGraw (May 26, 2017)

Rowy said:


> I've been at it again. As some of you know I'm trying to have a virtual orchestra sound as a real symphony orchestra, and I'm getting close, I think .
> 
> Since I'm not into film music, I don't want to fiddle around with a lot of compression. Still, I would like to have the production sound a bit clearer and broader, and yet _classical_. You must be able to hear the instruments apart and together as a group.
> 
> ...




This is actually quite good. It has been 40 years since I was in music school, but I found your piece quite convincing. Musicians trained in classical music are taught to strive for a consistent tone and to play dynamics as written. In a chamber music setting such as this piece, there would usually not be a conductor, so a steady tempo would be desirable, so the musicians would strive to stay in tempo. So having listened to many, many hours of classically trained music school performances, I found your piece very, very believable. 

The comments made by @AlexanderSchiborr are generally good advice. The dreaded sound of quantized midi performed by primitive libraries like GPO must be avoided. However, I did not find your piece even remotely suggestive of that quality. 

Could you enhance your piece with a little more individualized phrasing? Yes, a little more would probably enhance your performance, but I would be careful not to go too far or it will sound ridiculous. As you know, most talented musicians will shape a phrase to give a slight lift in volume at the most important part of the phrase, and conclude a phrase with a slight reduction in volume. Instrumentalists spend a LOT of practice time learning to artfully shape a phrase. Too much sounds comical, too little sounds wooden and robotic. You could do a bit more with phrase shaping, but don't let it get out of hand.


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## Rowy (May 26, 2017)

Hi, Mark. About my reluctance of using strings, I've used them before and I will in the future. It's just, I don't like them. To be more precise, I'm having trouble with the violins, less with the violas, even more less with the cellos and non what so ever with the double basses.

It might be the higher range that bothers me. My daughter has the same problem. She hears everything much louder than the average person (don't whisper something about her if you're in the same room or even in the next room, because she will hear it) and high pitched sounds can even drive her crazy.

When she was a young child I took her to a concert of a friend of mine, a choir conductor. After a couple of minutes a soprano started singing in a higher range. We sat in the front row and every one saw my daughter cover her ears immediately. The soprano didn't like that, but what could she do? She had to finish her piece. In the mean time my daughter even took cover by sticking her head under my coat. We didn't stay for drinks after the concert 

NI Session Strings Pro sound like you would expect from strings that play Baroque music. I'm going to use them for polyphonic music in a chamber orchestra. I think they sound crisp and clear.

Of course, composing for orchestra can be fun (although I'm starting to feel depressed ), but I like chamber music more. A symphonic orchestra sounds too dramatic for my liking. I prefer a smaller pure sound.

I've tried NI Symphony Series - String Ensemble. Really, the bombastic sound! Recently I had a go with Berlin Strings, but there's a weird ringing sound in the violins. Well, I've tried almost all strings, woodwinds and brass, but there seems always something wrong with it. I could be too demanding. After all, it isn't the real thing


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## Rowy (May 26, 2017)

Tatu said:


> Thinking in terms of arcs (breaths) is a good way to start when writing - programming - for wind instruments; sort of fade in fade out phrases. Sometimes CC1 doesn't necessarily cut it, so it's good to ad a little bit of CC11/7 in there as well. It's not how reality works (multiple players sharing passages, good lungs etc), but it's a good starting point.
> 
> Mix wise I'd say it's good. After all, world is full of different kind of mixes of orchestral music, so there really isn't right or wrong when the basics are correct, just our references. Once you got the programming right, the rest takes care of itself.



Thanks, Tatu, I thought I did that, fiddling with CC11 and such, but I guess it's just me. As soon as something starts to sound really human, I have the feeling I'm doing something wrong. I want it to be human _and_ subtle and in the end it sounds like midi again. Besides, I am more preoccupied with the mix right now.

You think the mix is good? I've heard recordings of real symphony orchestras and what I like is that although the sound of the instrument groups seem to come from further away, they also sound clear and close by. How do they do that, do you know?


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## Parsifal666 (May 26, 2017)

Tatu said:


> Thinking in terms of arcs (breaths) is a good way to start when writing - programming - for wind instruments; sort of fade in fade out phrases. Sometimes CC1 doesn't necessarily cut it, so it's good to ad a little bit of CC11/7 in there as well. It's not how reality works (multiple players sharing passages, good lungs etc), but it's a good starting point.
> 
> Mix wise I'd say it's good. After all, world is full of different kind of mixes of orchestral music, so there really isn't right or wrong when the basics are correct, just our references. Once you got the programming right, the rest takes care of itself.



+1


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## Tatu (May 26, 2017)

Rowy said:


> Thanks, Tatu, I thought I did that, fiddling with CC11 and such, but I guess it's just me. As soon as something starts to sound really human, I have the feeling I'm doing something wrong. I want it to be human _and_ subtle and in the end it sounds like midi again. Besides, I am more preoccupied with the mix right now.
> 
> You think the mix is good? I've heard recordings of real symphony orchestras and what I like is that although the sound of the instrument groups seem to come from further away, they also sound clear and close by. How do they do that, do you know?



Small pauses via gentle tempo changes and writing room for breathing, ie. ending a phrase with a rest of at least 1/8 note can help further, but even that is just a starting point. In general I prefer tighter, almost to grid programming and only let it loose when there's so much going on that it'd be a natural thing to get lost even for a professional musician.

I think it's a bit of a myth that we hear good recordings as if we were in the audience. I've always experienced good classical recordings as very good mixes (in the era of consoles etc), which means they work on it so that we can experience what they think we need to experience, hence occasional closer mix.


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## Rowy (May 26, 2017)

Paul T McGraw said:


> Could you enhance your piece with a little more individualized phrasing? Yes, a little more would probably enhance your performance, but I would be careful not to go too far or it will sound ridiculous. As you know, most talented musicians will shape a phrase to give a slight lift in volume at the most important part of the phrase, and conclude a phrase with a slight reduction in volume. Instrumentalists spend a LOT of practice time learning to artfully shape a phrase. Too much sounds comical, too little sounds wooden and robotic. You could do a bit more with phrase shaping, but don't let it get out of hand.



Thanks for the compliments, Paul. I must keep an eye on the phrasing, that is clear to me now. I'm not going to do that on this piece though, because it's just one of my experiments to get the orchestra sound real. I don't want to lose too much time on it. The score is available to anyone who wants to play it. I just want to avoid a ridiculous mock-up in the near future of a composition that will be important to me. Stuff like _Summer Forest_ and _Sad Old Witch_ can be written quite fast. It's just work.


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## Phryq (May 26, 2017)

To me the first thing to add is more ER. Even maybe a slight delay.


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## Rowy (May 26, 2017)

Tatu said:


> Small pauses via gentle tempo changes and writing room for breathing, ie. ending a phrase with a rest of at least 1/8 note can help further, but even that is just a starting point. In general I prefer tighter, almost to grid programming and only let it loose when there's so much going on that it'd be a natural thing to get lost even for a professional musician.
> 
> I think it's a bit of a myth that we hear good recordings as if we were in the audience. I've always experienced good classical recordings as very good mixes (in the era of consoles etc), which means they work on it so that we can experience what they think we need to experience, hence occasional closer mix.



Okay, thanks Tatu.


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## Rowy (May 26, 2017)

Phryq said:


> To me the first thing to add is more ER. Even maybe a slight delay.



Is ER the same as reverb? English is not my native language, so I don't get all the abbreviations.


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## Phryq (May 26, 2017)

Rowy said:


> Is ER the same as reverb? English is not my native language, so I don't get all the abbreviations.



ER means Early Reflections. Reverb has 2 parts, Early Reflections, and Late Reflections *LR.
*
ER is the beginning of the reverb, and makes instruments sound farther away. LR adds a 'tail', like a long echo.

Put a 100% wet, or 90% wet ER on your entire mix. What reverb do you use?


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## markleake (May 26, 2017)

Rowy said:


> Hi, Mark. About my reluctance of using strings, I've used them before and I will in the future. It's just, I don't like them. To be more precise, I'm having trouble with the violins, less with the violas, even more less with the cellos and non what so ever with the double basses.
> 
> It might be the higher range that bothers me. My daughter has the same problem. She hears everything much louder than the average person (don't whisper something about her if you're in the same room or even in the next room, because she will hear it) and high pitched sounds can even drive her crazy.
> 
> ...


I had assumed you were trying to emulate an orchestral sound because that is what you said in your original post. But yes, I can understand your preference for a smaller ensemble chamber size. Personally I like variety, so for me smaller and bigger ensembles each have their place. I've heard wonderful baroque and renaissance chamber pieces that blow me away.

The problem with NI Session Strings is there is no mod-wheel control of dynamics, and it can sound a bit raspy or non-tonal to my ears.


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## Rowy (May 26, 2017)

markleake said:


> The problem with NI Session Strings is there is no mod-wheel control of dynamics, and it can sound a bit raspy or non-tonal to my ears.



That's okay, I don't use a mod-wheel. It's not on my digital piano.


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## Rowy (May 26, 2017)

Phryq said:


> ER means Early Reflections. Reverb has 2 parts, Early Reflections, and Late Reflections *LR.
> *
> ER is the beginning of the reverb, and makes instruments sound farther away. LR adds a 'tail', like a long echo.
> 
> Put a 100% wet, or 90% wet ER on your entire mix. What reverb do you use?



I use Nimbus. So much ER? I'm going to try that. Thanks.


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## markleake (May 26, 2017)

Rowy said:


> That's okay, I don't use a mod-wheel. It's not on my digital piano.


I mean dynamic control. There isn't any control except via velocity, which is not really OK for a lot of people. It's still a personal choice thing though, I guess.


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## Rowy (May 27, 2017)

markleake said:


> I mean dynamic control. There isn't any control except via velocity, which is not really OK for a lot of people. It's still a personal choice thing though, I guess.



About dynamic control, I'm sorry but I'm lost here. Dynamic control is possible as far as I know. There's velocity, volume, expression and... I forgot the other one, but I'm sure it's there.


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## Phryq (May 27, 2017)

Rowy said:


> I use Nimbus. So much ER? I'm going to try that. Thanks.



For realism I put a lot of ER. But if realism isn't your top priority you can try 50% (for example, a verb send that is 100% wet).


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## Flaneurette (May 27, 2017)

Composition is great, as always. I just came back from a long hike in a local forest and I enjoyed listening to it.

Production wise... yes, could use some work.  I know that it is frustrating to learn this.

The modwheel / fader controller is something that I can't do without. You could draw the automation by hand, but a modwheel/fader controller is faster to draw in the expression/dynamics/volume/pressure/etc. Without it, it will sound like verbatim samples. MIDI-esque or machine-gunning.

I think one of the best ways to learn this is to see how others do it. Youtube is a great way to see how it's done by others without having to have access to a teacher.

Spitfire has a nice Youtube channel with lot's of tutorials, here is one: (scroll to 4:25 minutes to bypass the intro) Although I don't particularly like what he composed here, he does show an excellent example of how to use a fader controller to make samples sound more realistic. The same approach can be applied to winds, where pressure will be the most important factor for realism.



Also, here is a nice Playlist with tutorials on MIDI mockups. Haven't checked them all, but I am sure some will enlighten you.


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## markleake (May 27, 2017)

Rowy said:


> About dynamic control, I'm sorry but I'm lost here. Dynamic control is possible as far as I know. There's velocity, volume, expression and... I forgot the other one, but I'm sure it's there.


When you hold down a long note and adjust CC1 (the modwheel) what happens? Not having a modwheel you may not notice, but modwheel usually controls dynamics, it should crossfade between PP MF and FF dynamics.


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## leon chevalier (May 27, 2017)

Rowy said:


> I've been at it again. As some of you know I'm trying to have a virtual orchestra sound as a real symphony orchestra, and I'm getting close, I think .
> 
> Since I'm not into film music, I don't want to fiddle around with a lot of compression. Still, I would like to have the production sound a bit clearer and broader, and yet _classical_. You must be able to hear the instruments apart and together as a group.
> 
> ...




Hello Rowy.
I've been there too, I shared an orchestral piece here in VI control two years ago. I was quite happy with it and to me my mockup was close in quality to the best mockup I've heard on internet... Guess what ? It was not. Guess who told me that (in it's own very direct way) ? Alexander  That was hard. It hurts so much that I really thought I was done with music composition. I felt very depressed for a few days. I even did not tell my wife because I felt stupid to be depressed because of some internet reviews. So much time, money and work for nothing. So I stepped back for a while. Two months without writing. I've read a lot of time what the guys told me and I started to understand what I did wrong. I came back on music with totally new piece, less ambitious, and guess what ? I've improuved a lot. I don't know if I will be one day able to do a great mockup or a great composition, but now I'm much better at seeing where I am on the road and what path I still have to walk. (small tip : It's a never ending road!  )
To finish my too long story I would say : It was hard but it was worth it. In my composer life nothing made me grown up more that those bad comments. So it's for the best. Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.


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## d.healey (May 28, 2017)

Rowy said:


> About dynamic control, I'm sorry but I'm lost here. Dynamic control is possible as far as I know. There's velocity, volume, expression and... I forgot the other one, but I'm sure it's there.


If you're performing your pieces you'll need some kind of continuous controller like a mod-wheel, expression pedal, or breath controller. If you're not performing you pieces or don't have a controller you can enter and edit the controller data manually in your DAW using your mouse.

Velocity is only sent to a note once, when the note on message is sent, but real instruments don't work that way. Velocity is really for the attack of the instrument and its dynamics should be continuous and are usually controlled using a mod-wheel - but this varies between libraries. If you can't create a single note crescendo on a flute for example, then you can't create an expressive mockup. 

This kind of continuous control doesn't just apply to dynamics, it applies to all kinds of other parameters that various instruments have and that the musician can alter the intensity of as they play. For example vibrato speed and intensity, flutter tongue speed and intensity, pitch bending, trill speed etc.

Most of this doesn't apply to percussion instruments which in the real world tend not to have continuously controllable dynamics.

The simple rule is if the real instrument can and does do something in the context you are writing then you need to try to emulate that behaviour.


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## Rowy (May 28, 2017)

d.healey said:


> If you're performing your pieces you'll need some kind of continuous controller like a mod-wheel, expression pedal, or breath controller. If you're not performing you pieces or don't have a controller you can enter and edit the controller data manually in your DAW using your mouse.
> 
> Velocity is only sent to a note once, when the note on message is sent, but real instruments don't work that way. Velocity is really for the attack of the instrument and its dynamics should be continuous and are usually controlled using a mod-wheel - but this varies between libraries. If you can't create a single note crescendo on a flute for example, then you can't create an expressive mockup.
> 
> ...



Thanks. I get it now. Most of it I'm doing already. Although I don't use a breath controller, I do fiddle around with expression per note and volume. I prefer to find a standard set of preferences per instrument (I am a bit lazy), but I usually end up with fine-tuning each note.

I might be too subtle though. In the beginning I thought I could make a difference by changing the velocity from 98 to 99. Silly, I know.


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## Rowy (May 28, 2017)

leon chevalier said:


> Hello Rowy.
> I've been there too, I shared an orchestral piece here in VI control two years ago. I was quite happy with it and to me my mockup was close in quality to the best mockup I've heard on internet... Guess what ? It was not. Guess who told me that (in it's own very direct way) ? Alexander  That was hard. It hurts so much that I really thought I was done with music composition. I felt very depressed for a few days. I even did not tell my wife because I felt stupid to be depressed because of some internet reviews. So much time, money and work for nothing. So I stepped back for a while. Two months without writing. I've read a lot of time what the guys told me and I started to understand what I did wrong. I came back on music with totally new piece, less ambitious, and guess what ? I've improuved a lot. I don't know if I will be one day able to do a great mockup or a great composition, but now I'm much better at seeing where I am on the road and what path I still have to walk. (small tip : It's a never ending road!  )
> To finish my too long story I would say : It was hard but it was worth it. In my composer life nothing made me grown up more that those bad comments. So it's for the best. Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.



Hi Leon. Criticism doesn't really hurt me. I told my pupils in their first lesson, that one of the most difficult experiences for students of composition is having to deal with criticism. As a beginner you make something you're very proud of, your mother thinks you're a genius, and then a complete stranger explains to you that your music isn't that good at all and that you will have to change some parts. That can make you feel depressed.

The same happens to composers who have been writing music for years, but who were never criticised. I had to explain to a composer who was writing music for more than 25 years, that he needed to take lessons, because he made a beginner's mistake every ten measures. Some are doing alright on their own, but he really needed some guidance.

He was furious. All those years everyone told him that his music was good. Even a conductor of a good orchestra told him that his music was fine. The only problem he had, was that no one wanted to play his music, because they were all so busy 

That's why I welcome criticism. You don't learn much from compliments. It's when people tell you, on a regular base, what you're doing wrong, that you will develop yourself as a composer or as a producer (or as anything else come to think of it).

I'm nothing more than a hobby producer and I have little experience. I need a lot of help and I'm getting that in this forum, for what I am grateful.

Yet, as a classical schooled composer (I hope this is proper English), I have to be careful. Things are changing in the world of orchestral music. There's (new) classical music and there's film music. They are not the same. The things composers of (mostly epic) film music do, would be a no no in classical music and vice versa.

I once heard an excellent opera singer sing a pop song. It was terrible. A pop singer is much better at it. The same goes for music producing. There are some producers in this forum who didn't study a lot of music theory, but they know exactly what to do, if they want to make a score that will blow you out of your chair.

I can't do that. And I don't want to. It isn't me. If it comes to composition I don't need an advice. It's that bloody DAW and those maligned virtual instrumentals that give me the feeling I'm up to my knees in a swamp.

And there's society. Not so long ago, people listened sitting in a chair in a quiet house to classical (or so called _serious_) music. Nowadays a lot of people listen to music in their car, on a bike, even strolling through a busy mall. Shouldn't serious music made more epic, just to survive in all that noise? Is there going to be classical/epic music that you even can enjoy when someone is using a jackhammer next door?

There's a lot to think about...


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## Rowy (May 28, 2017)

markleake said:


> When you hold down a long note and adjust CC1 (the modwheel) what happens? Not having a modwheel you may not notice, but modwheel usually controls dynamics, it should crossfade between PP MF and FF dynamics.



I see. I control the dynamics with velocity, and volume and expression (changing during the length of the tone).


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## d.healey (May 28, 2017)

Rowy said:


> I see. I control the dynamics with velocity, and volume and expression (changing during the length of the tone).


Velocity is only for the attack, volume is for mixing, and expression is for fine tuning the volume. Dynamics are a mixture or volume and timbre and need to be controlled continuously. Taking a trumpet sample played at F and turning the volume down doesn't sound like a trumpet played at P nor does turning the volume up sound like a trumpet played FFF. You need to use sample libraries that allow for the continuous control of dynamics through CC controlled crossfading. If your libraries only allow dynamic control through velocity then the realism of expression you can achieve is going to be limited, in some cases you can use a low pass filter to simulate lower dynamics and you can control the filter's cutoff with a CC.


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## Rowy (May 28, 2017)

Flaneurette said:


> Composition is great, as always. I just came back from a long hike in a local forest and I enjoyed listening to it.
> 
> Production wise... yes, could use some work.  I know that it is frustrating to learn this.
> 
> The modwheel / fader controller is something that I can't do without. You could draw the automation by hand, but a modwheel/fader controller is faster to draw in the expression/dynamics/volume/pressure/etc. Without it, it will sound like verbatim samples. MIDI-esque or machine-gunning.



Hiking is good. I like to ride my bicycle through the woods (in this decadent country even the woods have special bicycle paths). About a modwheel, I don't have it on my digital piano and I'm not going to buy a new one, because... this might come as a shock... I can't even use a piano if it has lights, wheels, buttons, fireworks and stuff like that. It bothers me too much. I like the old stuff, an upright piano, like my old Pleyel.

So I draw the automation by hand and I'm not even good at it, yet


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## Rowy (May 28, 2017)

d.healey said:


> Velocity is only for the attack, volume is for mixing, and expression is for fine tuning the volume. Dynamics are a mixture or volume and timbre and need to be controlled continuously. Taking a trumpet sample played at F and turning the volume down doesn't sound like a trumpet played at P nor does turning the volume up sound like a trumpet played FFF. You need to use sample libraries that allow for the continuous control of dynamics through CC controlled crossfading. If your libraries only allow dynamic control through velocity then the realism of expression you can achieve is going to be limited, in some cases you can use a low pass filter to simulate lower dynamics and you can control the filter's cutoff with a CC.



I know what you mean, but I also split up the parts. You hear one trumpet playing, but it's possible I programmed that on 3 different tracks. About the trumpet, I must have tested about 6 well known virtual trumpets before I found one that sounded real enough. It's The Trumpet v3 by Sample Modelling.


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## d.healey (May 28, 2017)

Rowy said:


> I know what you mean, but I also split up the parts. You hear one trumpet playing, but it's possible I programmed that on 3 different tracks. About the trumpet, I must have tested about 6 well known virtual trumpets before I found one that sounded real enough. It's The Trumpet v3 by Sample Modelling.


The sample modelling trumpet is excellent - it is specially designed for phase free dynamic crossfading, so you should make use of it


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## markleake (May 28, 2017)

Rowy said:


> I see. I control the dynamics with velocity, and volume and expression (changing during the length of the tone).


Dynamics changes the timbre of an instrument, like playing MF or P, and is controlled by CC1. It is not what you seem to be describing, ie. it is not velocity, volume or expression. Session Strings doesn't have dynamic control, only velocity control which is very limiting, so I think you may have misinterpreted what I said about that library?

I think from what you describe here you have set yourself a difficult task. The computer in this day and age is a very versatile instrument -- if you take away some of the intuitive control over it, you are removing a level of control that you have over what you produce, the opposite of what a good musician should do. Not to say you should get rid of your keyboard (no need to), but there are very simple ways to speed things up and improve the experience of recording midi that don't require much knowledge or distractions.


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## Quasar (May 28, 2017)

I enjoyed the piece. Nice job. Agree with some of the comments about the articulations being somewhat static. More timbre variance would help, and it could benefit from some judicious reverb, ERs to give the instruments more of a sense of being placed in a physical space.

I don't think it's realistically possible for digital sample libraries to sound _exactly_ like material orchestras for the simple reason that one thing is never another, but it's cool to strive for as much realism as you can.


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## husselblum (May 28, 2017)

markleake said:


> Dynamics changes the timbre of an instrument, like playing MF or P, and is controlled by CC1. It is not what you seem to be describing, ie. it is not velocity, volume or expression. Session Strings doesn't have dynamic control, only velocity control which is very limiting, so I think you may have misinterpreted what I said about that library?
> 
> I think from what you describe here you have set yourself a difficult task. The computer in this day and age is a very versatile instrument -- if you take away some of the intuitive control over it, you are removing a level of control that you have over what you produce, the opposite of what a good musician should do. Not to say you should get rid of your keyboard (no need to), but there are very simple ways to speed things up and improve the experience of recording midi that don't require much knowledge or distractions.



Just a short insertion:
IIRC Session Strings Pro does have controllable Dynamics via modwheel. On the articulations page there is some kind of switch which changes from velocity to modwheel.


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## Rowy (May 28, 2017)

husselblum said:


> Just a short insertion:
> IIRC Session Strings Pro does have controllable Dynamics via modwheel. On the articulations page there is some kind of switch which changes from velocity to modwheel.





markleake said:


> Dynamics changes the timbre of an instrument, like playing MF or P, and is controlled by CC1. It is not what you seem to be describing, ie. it is not velocity, volume or expression. Session Strings doesn't have dynamic control, only velocity control which is very limiting, so I think you may have misinterpreted what I said about that library?



I'm not sure. There is of course the problem with the language. I don't use a mod wheel and apparently expression isn't the same.

I know that a timbre changes when you play an instrument p, mf or f. That has to do with the overtones. The louder you play an instrument, the more the dissonant overtones get the upper hand. That's why I have to choose between a sustain p, mf or f, when I load an instrument. But even then a mod wheel would make a difference, even when I use expression and volume (and velocity)?

Wouldn't it be enough if I split a part into 3 tracks, one for each dynamic phrase?


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## Rowy (May 28, 2017)

Tugboat said:


> I don't think it's realistically possible for digital sample libraries to sound _exactly_ like material orchestras for the simple reason that one thing is never another, but it's cool to strive for as much realism as you can.



I'm starting to think the same


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## d.healey (May 28, 2017)

Rowy said:


> Wouldn't it be enough if I split a part into 3 tracks, one for each dynamic phrase?


One phrase can have more than one dynamic - and there are more than 3 dynamics.


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## Rowy (May 28, 2017)

d.healey said:


> One phrase can have more than one dynamic - and there are more than 3 dynamics.



Yes, but with 3 basic levels and programmed velocity and volume and expression per note, I think that should do the trick. If not, than I will have to wait for AI


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## d.healey (May 28, 2017)

Rowy said:


> I think that should do the trick.


That depends on the trick you're trying to do. If you want to create realistic mockups you need to be controlling your dynamics like a real musician would - don't wait for the AI - you have to do it like everyone else


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## David Story (May 28, 2017)

It's a nice composition. *Anyone* who attends concerts would sense this feels and sounds artificial. Each note, phrase, and ensemble is pretty lifeless. 
Even if the samples were more detailed, a great range of articulations used, controllers shaping dynamics and vibrato, it would have the same issues. It would just take a little longer to realize that this isn't 50 artists collaborating live.
It's a helpful mockup if you want to persuade an orchestra to play your work.


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## Rowy (May 28, 2017)

d.healey said:


> That depends on the trick you're trying to do. If you want to create realistic mockups you need to be controlling your dynamics like a real musician would - don't wait for the AI - you have to do it like everyone else



I'll wait for the AI and then all I have to do is push a button and everything will be okay. It's just a matter of clicking your heels together three times. I can do that


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## Rowy (May 28, 2017)

David Story said:


> Even if the samples were more detailed, a great range of articulations used, controllers shaping dynamics and vibrato, it would have the same issues. It would just take a little longer to realize that this isn't 50 artists collaborating live.



Well, thanks a lot. That's all I needed. Now I'm really motivated


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## d.healey (May 28, 2017)

Rowy said:


> Well, thanks a lot. That's all I needed. Now I'm really motivated


You might find this more motivating


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## Rowy (May 28, 2017)

d.healey said:


> You might find this more motivating



That is a very interesting video. I've noticed a few things though that can be done just as well with a bit of trickery, or even better with AI


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## d.healey (May 28, 2017)

Rowy said:


> That is a very interesting video. I've noticed a few things though that can be done just as well with a bit of trickery, or even better with AI


I look forward to hearing it


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## Desire Inspires (May 31, 2017)

No. But it is good in its own right. 

The best thing to do is to either get a real orchestra to play the piece or to leave it as is and let everyone know it is a mockup.

No need to worry about these things. 90% of the world doesn't realize the difference or could care less.


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