# How much do you charge per 1min of music (indie short film)?



## Uncle Jesse (Oct 24, 2017)

Sorry if this question comes up a lot or is inappropriate. I usually compose for TVCs but have been asked to compose for a short film (15min long). I have no idea what to charge?!?! I'm guessing the easiest way is to quote per every 1min of music. What is a typical rate? Thanks!


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## Begfred (Oct 24, 2017)

I try to stay as close as possible to 1k/min. But sometimes its not possible.

So I take 1% of the total budget + the number of minutes of music X 1k and make the average. 

So let say I have 10 minutes to score and the movie budget is 60k.
(10000+600$) / 2 = 5400$
But if the movie budget is 800k
(10000+8000) / 2= 9000$

That’s what I would ask (dealing with Canadian budgets here...). I never go under 500$/min unless there’s some good reasons (future projects, friends...)


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## Begfred (Oct 24, 2017)

And of course advertising is a different thing...$$$


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## Uncle Jesse (Oct 25, 2017)

Begfred said:


> I try to stay as close as possible to 1k/min. But sometimes its not possible.
> 
> So I take 1% of the total budget + the number of minutes of music X 1k and make the average.
> 
> ...


Wow thanks for that! Good on ya, sounds like you are doing great! Would love to check out yo work sometime.


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## avanology (Oct 25, 2017)

Man I envy you guys so much. I work as a composer in Nigeria and we get peanuts man compared to other countries whose movie industries aren't even half as big as ours. So i guess, in summary, I am of no help whatsoever.


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## Consona (Oct 25, 2017)

500$ per minute? Wow! That's what I get in my day job monthly.


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## germancomponist (Oct 25, 2017)

I think it always depends. What kind of film are you talking about?


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## Uncle Jesse (Oct 25, 2017)

germancomponist said:


> I think it always depends. What kind of film are you talking about?


Indie Short Film. I haven't been given too much more info unfortunately.


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## MatFluor (Oct 25, 2017)

I would go for their budget. Being flexible and know what your rate is and if you want to do it for that rate in the budget.

I typically charge $300/Minute, but most often I go a bit under that for various reasons. E.g. take 1% of their budget as your rate, or 5% of the overall budget if you have no base rate atm. Just as idea


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## Ihnoc (Oct 25, 2017)

I've no personal experience to base it on (since I have no idea yet on how to get this kind of gig) but I have heard around $400 per minute as a ball park for most projects.

Great thread by the way; great to see people talk about what they charge.


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## jcrosby (Oct 25, 2017)

Budget is everything though... a 15 minute film probably won't to have a budget to pay per minute of music. Most likely they'll want a project rate. 750-1500/minute is theoretically common, but we're talking people living and breathing film in LA/NY/London that can start with a number like that as a baseline... (The most I ever got was 1k per minute. Once and once only...)

I'm just saying have realistic expectations... Don't sell yourself short, but don't pass up a really cool project either, (if it's a solid film...), just because you have a specific number in your head that might be unrealistic...

My rule is if the budget is lower than my initial figure than I maintain copyright and the agreement is a license. (If it's something you can re-license that's an opportunity to recoup... Sometimes exceeding your initial number.)


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## Lode_Runner (Oct 25, 2017)

Consona said:


> 500$ per minute? Wow! That's what I get in my day job monthly.


I think they mean 1 minute of audio, not 1 minute of work.


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## AdamKmusic (Oct 25, 2017)

Begfred said:


> I try to stay as close as possible to 1k/min. But sometimes its not possible.
> 
> So I take 1% of the total budget + the number of minutes of music X 1k and make the average.
> 
> ...



$1k a minute for an indie short? Where you finding this work!?


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## Consona (Oct 25, 2017)

Lode_Runner said:


> I think they mean 1 minute of audio, not 1 minute of work.


I get that.  Still, it's like one day of work vs one month of work for the same money (not that I'm in a work every day, but you get the point).


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## erica-grace (Oct 25, 2017)

To expect $1k, or even $500 per minute or music for an indie short is just not at all realistic.

If the short is 15 min long, and there is, say, 12 min of music, you really think they are going to pay you twelve thousand dollars to do the music? Or 6k? You would be looking at several hundred dollars - maybe 1k - for the entire project.

Sure, 1k per minute is great, and maybe sometimes it happens, but you have to go into this realistically.


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## MatFluor (Oct 25, 2017)

erica-grace said:


> To expect $1k, or even $500 per minute or music for an indie short is just not at all realistic.
> 
> If the short is 15 min long, and there is, say, 12 min of music, you really think they are going to pay you twelve thousand dollars to do the music? Or 6k? You would be looking at several hundred dollars - maybe 1k - for the entire project.
> 
> Sure, 1k per minute is great, and maybe sometimes it happens, but you have to go into this realistically.



Agree - that's why I put up the Budget. As said, depending on how much music and how confident your are, 1%-5% of the overall budget, or 1%/Minute. You don't want the producer to be broke, but you also don't want to sell yourself hard under value. Indie is a different domain - although Indie Budgets can reach up to $50k and higher.


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## Begfred (Oct 25, 2017)

AdamKmusic said:


> $1k a minute for an indie short? Where you finding this work!?


Yes you're right, mostly. But if they ask me what it cost to score a short movie that's what I would tell them. Then if they say they only have 2-3k for the music and the project is cool and people's are great and i'm not fully booked on other project I would say yes, of coarse. But I think it's important that they know whats the cost of an original score in general as a basis for the discussion.
Indie short doesn't mean no budget. I've worked on some shorts and they always had around 2-3k for about 4-5 music cues (Intro-2 scored scenes-Outro) for around 6 min of music. Even they had extra budget for a singer or a solo instrument.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Oct 25, 2017)

I never do the "per minute" charge for anything anymore, IMO it's an old-school approach to setting your rates. Just find out what they have to spend on music, my guess is that it's peanuts; probably something around $200 (it's an Indie film).


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## SDCP (Oct 25, 2017)

I copied this info from someone else on this forum. Sorry I can't give credit to the author because I forgot who posted it.

*- Ask for a percentage of the budget.* In large feature films, composers can often get from between 5%-10% of the overall budget (Don’t forget this includes the costs of recording the music, which can be huge, meaning not as much profit as you think). If you think the budget is big, you could try ask for between 5% – 10% and negotiate from there – this depends on the type of project (is it a film/ video game?) as well as the size of the budget – 5% of $10 isn’t a lot!
*
- Charge an hourly rate.* You could set an hourly rate for composing, give a rough estimate of how many hours it would take to write the music and allow for a little negotiation. You might be selling yourself short, or then again, you may not.
*
- Charge a flat rate per minute of music.* Some composers charge a specific rate per minute of music created, depending on the number of instruments. Again, it depends on the project, but for some small projects, you can set a price per minute of music for 1-5 instruments, 6-10 instruments, and 11 instruments upwards. For example:
• 1-5 instruments – $300 per minute
• 6-10 instrument – $450 per minute
• 11 instruments upwards – $600 per minute
*
- Pull a number out of your head.* Works for some people – I wouldn’t suggest it.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Oct 25, 2017)

SDCP said:


> *- Ask for a percentage of the budget.* In large feature films, composers can often get from between 5%-10% of the overall budget (Don’t forget this includes the costs of recording the music, which can be huge, meaning not as much profit as you think). If you think the budget is big, you could try ask for between 5% – 10% and negotiate from there – this depends on the type of project (is it a film/ video game?) as well as the size of the budget – 5% of $10 isn’t a lot!



I think it's closer to 2%.

From a client's standpoint, they just want the final all-in price.


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## Begfred (Oct 25, 2017)

SDCP said:


> I copied this info from someone else on this forum. Sorry I can't give credit to the author because I forgot who posted it.
> 
> *- Ask for a percentage of the budget.* In large feature films, composers can often get from between 5%-10% of the overall budget (Don’t forget this includes the costs of recording the music, which can be huge, meaning not as much profit as you think). If you think the budget is big, you could try ask for between 5% – 10% and negotiate from there – this depends on the type of project (is it a film/ video game?) as well as the size of the budget – 5% of $10 isn’t a lot!
> *
> ...


Thanks for this, great infos.
But what I have seen is more around 1% of the movie budget (for the entire music production). And the last feature film i've done was around 0.5% because they spent much money on clearing big pop songs copyrights (David Bowie, Kiss...):( But there was 45 min of score plus every source music (bar and restaurant scenes) to do. Budgets goes down every year...


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## Mihkel Zilmer (Oct 25, 2017)

10% of the total budget is just absurd. If you're getting that - congratulations, you are truly in a unique position.
My recent experiences with European short films & documentaries are in the 1% to 3% range, depending on how important they consider the music to be. And usually less than that for feature films.


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## Uncle Jesse (Oct 25, 2017)

A fixed all-in-one rate doesn't seem like an ideal arrangement, especially if the budget for music is below average. You could end up scoring your ass off for minimal payment if a large percentage of the film requires music. Surely it's agreed upon beforehand how much total music will be required if this model is used.

Flat rate per minute model seems like a fair arrangement for both parties. The director then knows there will be additional charges for any additional music cues that might be needed down the track..


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## Uncle Jesse (Oct 25, 2017)

Mihkel Zilmer said:


> 10% of the total budget is just absurd. If you're getting that - congratulations, you are truly in a unique position.
> My recent experiences with European short films & documentaries are in the 1% to 3% range, depending on how important they consider the music to be. And usually less than that for feature films.


Just checked out some of your youtube videos. Good stuff mate!


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## Mihkel Zilmer (Oct 25, 2017)

Uncle Jesse said:


> Sorry if this question comes up a lot or is inappropriate. I usually compose for TVCs but have been asked to compose for a short film (15min long). I have no idea what to charge?!?! I'm guessing the easiest way is to quote per every 1min of music. What is a typical rate? Thanks!



There are a few exceptions, but in general you should expect to make *significantly* less per minute of music than you do in advertising, unless the film has somehow managed to secure some serious funding. I've scored ads that paid three times as much as a 10 minute short. And the film was perhaps five times as much work as the ad..



Uncle Jesse said:


> A fixed all-in-one rate doesn't seem like an ideal arrangement, especially if the budget for music is below average. You could end up scoring your ass off for minimal payment if a large percentage of the film requires music. Surely it's agreed upon beforehand how much total music will be required if this model is used.
> 
> Flat rate per minute model seems like a fair arrangement for both parties. The director then knows there will be additional charges for any additional music cues that might be needed down the track.



Yes, a fixed rate can be less than ideal* for you*, but it's far better for them, because short films are typically made on such constrained budgets that they plan out every single little detail of the budget in advance. In this case, the producer might not be willing to go with a price-per-minute arrangement, because they don't want any unknown factors in their already tight budget. It's absolutely worth a try, and your argument of it being fair might be considered, but in all likelihood they will counter you with a fixed number - "we can afford to spend _*X* _on the music".

If you can't easily find out what their total budget is, you can always try to simply ask how much they can afford to spend on music. Try to get them to give you a number before you make your quote - this gives you the upper hand in the following negotiations.

Regardless of whether they give you a number or not, they absolutely need to tell you how many minutes of music they expect to need (ideally also the style and complexity of the music needs to be considered) and you can base your quote on that. When making your quote, try to work in some contingency for the eventual, inevitable revisions and any unforeseen additional music and make sure you let them know your quote includes those things. Producers are sometimes open to working with ranges, i.e. your quote could include minimum + maximum projected costs, but this might also makes things unnecessarily complex, so it's best to double check in advance if they'd be happy to work like that.

Unless they have really thought about how much music they need, which a surprising number of filmmakers don't even consider until they are editing, then they might also find it difficult to answer this question, which, yet again, might lead them to just offering you a fixed fee.

It'll then be purely down to you to decide whether based on the artistic / networking / exposure etc. merits you can justify scoring the film for the amount they offer.

And finally - as hard as it can be, I'd encourage you to walk away from the project if you feel you are truly underpaid, because those kinds of working conditions aren't really doing any of us a favour. Although they will probably find another composer even if they are offering peanuts because there's plenty of people out there willing to do it for free just to get some film scoring experience, and out of work beginners also accept absurd rates.

Hope this helps a bit!


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## Uncle Jesse (Oct 25, 2017)

That helped a lot man! I am going to use most of it. I have already replied to the client that I rather work on per minute basis and will price it depending on the scope of the work. But I can always come back with a fixed rate option if it all seems reasonable. Oh and I'd definitely walk away from the project if I felt like they were being unreasonable. I have no time for people that don't value music.


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## Maxime Luft (Oct 25, 2017)




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## will_m (Oct 25, 2017)

In my experience indie shorts budgets vary massively, so I look at the overall budget and work from that.

I tend to do a flat rate not price per minute, most directors/producers I know would prefer to know that the music is covered and they don't need to pay extra for additional cues etc.

If you are worried a film might be wall to wall music then ask up front about the style and complexity required. Writing 60 minutes of horror underscore might work out taking less time than writing 40 minutes or dense orchestration.

You can always price your flat fee as a 'worse case scenario'.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Oct 25, 2017)

Uncle Jesse said:


> I have no time for people that don't value music.



It's not that director's and producer's don't value music, it's that they don't want to pay for it. I have yet to meet a director that agrees to a per-minute price....but if you can get it, great. They want the total "turn key" price, they don't really care how long it takes you to create it unfortunately. This is why many smaller budget films opt for library tracks. Most Indie films I've worked on gave me a very small payment (under $500), as I was hoping the "payment" would be riding the coat tails of an up and coming director (which eventually paid off), but I did a ton of free work in the process.


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## musicalweather (Oct 25, 2017)

In my experience, it's been very difficult to get producers / directors to reveal their budgets, especially when their initial description of the project is as "a labor of love."  I also find it difficult to get them to reveal what their budget is for composing. As another poster noted, whoever asks first gets the upper hand in the conversation, and I find that directors / producers will beat me to it, so to speak, by asking about my rate in their initial contact with me. 

When I was first starting out, I scored lots of films for free and then for low rates. I've moved away from the low budget stuff simply because I find it's not worth it. It was worth it for a time, to build a network of people and get my name out there. But after a while, I found that doing low budget work was just begetting the same kind of work. Perhaps that has more to do with my poor skills at "leveling up" to projects with larger budgets. A friend of mine in a different part of the entertainment world noted that people who pay you less tend to treat you worse than those who pay more. I would quickly add that that is not true all the time, but it's often true. It seems counterintuitive -- you'd think you'd be _more _valued because of your contribution of something of high value in return for low pay. But low pay really does seem to express a view that places low value on your work. 

Sorry to get a bit off topic, and glum. But I think arming ourselves with knowledge can help make the experience of negotiating pay a little better.


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## JohnG (Oct 25, 2017)

One MILLION dollars [evil cackle]


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## Jeremy Spencer (Oct 25, 2017)

Uncle Jesse said:


> Depending on the definition of 'value', this statement is a little contradictory. But I get what you're saying mate.



The thing is, many of the director's and producer's I've worked with put music far down on their budget list. They want first rate music, but many simply don't understand how much time and effort we put into it. The professional live theater world is a different story, and I think it's because of the collective creativity going on...they just "get it".

Anyways, sorry to sidetrack. Let us know how it turns out.


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## VinRice (Oct 25, 2017)

You can always do what actors do when they work on an indie vanity project. Tell them your personal standard rate of say, £300/$500 per finished minute plus orchestration, studio time and musicians if required. This sets the bar of the level you consider yourself (the 'Quote'). Then explain that of course you know that independent films often don't have a lot of money and would consider doing the movie for a lump sum in line with their budget if it's interesting to you - so could you tell me about the project and how much you have budgeted for the music?


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## JohnG (Oct 25, 2017)

Begfred said:


> So let say I have 10 minutes to score and the movie budget is 60k.
> (10000+600$) / 2 = 5400$
> But if the movie budget is 800k
> (10000+8000) / 2= 9000$



I don't think those equations would, strictly speaking, make it into a textbook. But one appreciates the detail nonetheless.


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## VinRice (Oct 25, 2017)

I was a designer for many years and it's a similar situation. The client really doesn't understand what you do so they focus on the money required to get this thing they know they have to have. By giving them a figure they will make a quick calculation in their heads and think, 'crap, that could end up being $15,000 or more! - we've only got $2000'. They are more likely to tell you that figure because the negotiating game is essentially already over. Now you throw them the lifeline of being incredibly interested in their little project and perhaps 'we can work together to get a really great score happening for the film'. Then you have be in sales mode; gently hinting at just how important the music is for the critical success of the project etc. whilst re-iterating the constraints of a low budget; one or none live musicians, minimal revisions etc. The longer you can keep talking back and forth, the more of a 'partnership' situation begins to form and the less time they have to make a decision, the more likely you are to get the gig.


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## dpasdernick (Oct 25, 2017)

I won't touch anything for under $5000 a minute. I haven't got a gig yet but when I do "shit bitches I be ballin'"


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## Christof (Oct 26, 2017)

dpasdernick said:


> I won't touch anything for under $5000 a minute. I haven't got a gig yet but when I do "shit bitches I be ballin'"


Not sure if you are ironic here, but if not, good luck!


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## Alohabob (Oct 26, 2017)

Are there ways to get them to reveal the budget?


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## chillbot (Oct 26, 2017)

@Maxime Luft that image is priceless. Did you come up with that or find it somewhere? Mad props.

I have seen this question come up possibly 50 or more times here and in other places. What I always wonder is, what is your music worth? How good is it? I mean I've seen people say they wouldn't work for less than $300/minute when their music isn't worth a fraction of that. How would you feel if you were the producer/director and paid $300/minute for stuff that was either low production value or didn't fit the picture. Everyone always talks about the budget or the negotiating. Yes, it's a catch-22 if you're just starting out or it's your first gig, you don't know what it's worth until someone pays you something. But consider if your music is good and you know what you're doing then it's worth X amount of dollars to you and stick to that. Otherwise you're getting underpaid because of a low budget and/or you need the work, or you're getting overpaid.

Let's say you write really good music and your production is stellar. Do you know how to score to picture? How many pictures have you done? Other factors to consider.

All of that is just jibber jabber and doesn't help with actual numbers. I would say you're doing quite well (in this day) if you can get $100/minute plus 100% of any backend, if there is any. If you are worth it, then look at charging $300/minute or $500/minute, whatever. Just make sure you're actually worth it before you start asking for more. $100/minute is nothing to scoff at, it's actually fairly typical and you can make a good living. This is not aimed at the OP but just in general. Then there are other situations where they have a big budget, then you ask for the moon.

If you're doing this for a living, or even as a part-time gig, you should know what your time is worth. Figure out how long it will take you, and how much you need to make to make it worth your time. Then add/subtract for other factors such as making connections, or backend royalties, or owning the music, or a larger-than-average budget. Asking here is not going to help, if there's one thing that's proven it's that there is no "set" rate. People do it for free and people do it for $5,000/minute like @dpasdernick no joke. I'm pretty sure A-list guys have worked for $25,000/minute. So somewhere in between free and $25k is your ideal target.


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## chillbot (Oct 26, 2017)

Also shouldn't this be in "working in the industry"?


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## dpasdernick (Oct 26, 2017)

chillbot said:


> @Maxime Luft that image is priceless. Did you come up with that or find it somewhere? Mad props.
> 
> I have seen this question come up possibly 50 or more times here and in other places. What I always wonder is, what is your music worth? How good is it? I mean I've seen people say they wouldn't work for less than $300/minute when their music isn't worth a fraction of that. How would you feel if you were the producer/director and paid $300/minute for stuff that was either low production value or didn't fit the picture. Everyone always talks about the budget or the negotiating. Yes, it's a catch-22 if you're just starting out or it's your first gig, you don't know what it's worth until someone pays you something. But consider if your music is good and you know what you're doing then it's worth X amount of dollars to you and stick to that. Otherwise you're getting underpaid because of a low budget and/or you need the work, or you're getting overpaid.
> 
> ...




I was kidding. I actually spend 5k a minute shopping for VST's.

Ok seriously.

If you charge $100 a minute and it takes you 4 hours to write and produce that minute that's $25 an hour. (Then you go out and buy $200 worth of software for a job well done) Now sometimes the cue many be a single drone that takes you 30 seconds and then you're making bank. Sometimes you may have writer's block or need to hire on a soloist and now you're making less than minimum wage for that minute of precious music. Maybe one day you'll get to be Hans. Maybe not.

I gave up trying to make a living on my music at the age of 26 because I didn't want to be poor. I actually think I could have been a contender but I was raised to be conservative and careful and as the years fell by I let the dream fade a bit and did the responsible thing.

I truly salute all of you that make a living off your music. It's a tough gig and only getting harder as the years go by. Rock on gents!


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## chillbot (Oct 26, 2017)

dpasdernick said:


> I was kidding.



I know you were joking. None of this is addressed to you personally but just to further my point. You list one scenario where it takes 4 hours to write one minute. Other scenarios regarding $100/minute:

#2) You write one minute in 4 hours (that's a bit slow but whatever). You write two minutes per day. $25/hour. But it airs on network TV in the US. $200/minute royalties = $600 total/day. You can live on that.

#3) You write one minute in 2 hours (more like it). You write four minutes per day. $50/hour. But it's for a documentary that airs on cable in the US. And it airs and airs and airs, like twice per quarter at $5/minute. Those four minutes generate $160/year for four years. Now you're at $130/hour.

#4) You write one minute in however many hours it takes you because you're slow. But they are so impressed that they hire you for the next gig and it has a $10,000 music budget. What is that worth?

#5) Consider the people, some of whom are in this forum, who make $0/minute and live off of it because it's library music and placements with no upfront dollars-per-minute. Some would drool over $100/minute.

Also consider, 10 minutes scored to picture may generally be 10x easier than writing 10 separate one-minute cues. I guess my point is that $100/minute is not all that bad and I know a lot of people that live off of it or less.

OP asked “what is a typical rate”. I just don't think there is one, see above. And we always hear discussion about the budget but never about what are we actually worth.

X is "what is the budget". What percentage of that can we get? How do we negotiate per minute? But what about Y: "what is our music worth". It depends on both factors and even other factors as mentioned above.

I’ve heard of every music budget between -$5,000 (you’re paying out of pocket, possibly for exposure) up to $3M. We always talk about budgets but we are not all the same. I know that my music and production and skills at scoring are much better than some of you and much worse than some of you. So asking for a ‘typical’ rate doesn’t make much sense to me. If you are HZ you’re commanding a different rate. That’s an extreme example, I get it. Why are we always asking about rates and budgets and percentages and not asking what our music is worth as a commercial product, because we are not all comparable.


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## VinRice (Oct 27, 2017)

All great points and absolutely 'on the money', but the OP's question was specifically about an independent movie, From this we can deduce that a) there will be no backend, b) the filmmakers are inexperienced, otherwise why would they ask c) an inexperienced composer and d) the budget will be small/non-existant. In this scenario I would argue that the quality of the music will have nothing to do with whether you get the gig or not, or what your rate of pay will be. The goal will be to get the maximum available under bearable work conditions - otherwise just walk away.


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## Uncle Jesse (Oct 27, 2017)

VinRice said:


> All great points and absolutely 'on the money', but the OP's question was specifically about an independent movie, From this we can deduce that a) there will be no backend, b) the filmmakers are inexperienced, otherwise why would they ask c) an inexperienced composer and d) the budget will be small/non-existant. In this scenario I would argue that the quality of the music will have nothing to do with whether you get the gig or not, or what your rate of pay will be. The goal will be to get the maximum available under bearable work conditions - otherwise just walk away.



You are right for point c). I have absolutely no experience when it comes to the business side of film music. My manager asked me what I'd charge to score a short film. I have no idea what the film is or who the filmmakers are.

It's definitely an interesting mix of responses, but all extremely helpful!


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## chillbot (Oct 27, 2017)

VinRice said:


> All great points and absolutely 'on the money', but the OP's question was specifically about an independent movie


Sorry, yes, got off on a bit of a tangent.

But also this:


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## Uncle Jesse (Oct 27, 2017)

chillbot said:


> Sorry, yes, got off on a bit of a tangent.
> 
> But also this:



Cheers for the all the extra information mate. Really appreciate it! I knew this forum would be a goldmine of quality information. Wasn't sure how to search up previous topics and was mostly interested in the rate per minute model which I knew was quite specific.


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## jmauz (Oct 27, 2017)

chillbot said:


> #5) Consider the people, some of whom are in this forum, who make $0/minute and live off of it because it's library music and placements with no upfront dollars-per-minute. Some would drool over $100/minute.



Took the words out of my mouth. 

Most of my work lately is library stuff but I do some commercial and indie film scoring from time to time. In my relatively short career as a composer (~5 years) I've NEVER worked on a per minute basis. It's always been a flat fee. I might use a per-hour figure in my head to come up with a 'total cost' offer but the person hiring me doesn't know (or care) about that. 

Same goes for my experience in music production. Whether it's film makers or singer/songwriters, people seem to just want to know how much it's going to cost them 'out the door'. I know when I'm preparing a project budget and I need to hire musicians, book studio time, etc I need to plan for total cost before I pull the trigger on anything...it's just good business.


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## Uncle Jesse (Oct 27, 2017)

Thanks heaps for the responses. I have only ever done TVC work and my agent always handles the business side for me. 

This film stuff is definitely a whole new world and I had no idea it was so all over the place. I'm now thinking I just let my manager decide a fee on this one. I'm kinda glad I waited for a few responses on here or I probably would have hit em with @Begfred 's number of $1000 per minute haha. Man that would have been ugly.

I also really like @jcrosby 's idea that if the fee is lower than what I consider reasonable that I maintain copyright and the agreement is a license. Thanks for the heads up!


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## Atarion Music (Oct 27, 2017)

For me, it's the possibility of the nightmare or joy of working with the client. That should be a concern when coming to your fee. Are they difficult? Or easy to work with. How much time did they give you? 3 weeks of 6 months/ more? less?. Are they the EXTREMELY picky ones or do they let you do your own thing as you interpret the material they give you. 

Sadly, most low budget films can rarely pay more for music. Let's say their total budget is about $12,000 for a feature, or $3,400 for a mini/short film. A per-minute rate won’t be looking to well for you... BUT!! there's hope. KEEP The rights to your music. You then add it to your catalog and receive the credit. Market yourself Unless of course your being paid enough money say - around 3k a min, then I guess you could just slide the right's into the clients hand and never think twice about it.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 27, 2017)

I'm with chill here, fees are all over the map. I know a bunch of guys who, when starting out, lost money on multiple films because the budgets didn't include money for live musicians so they paid out of pocket. I've not heard of a "per minute" fee for movies, indie or otherwise-just total budgets, which are usually ridiculously small unless you have a very well established name. Still, sometimes the back end can make them worth it.

I did most of my work in advertising over the years, but here's an interesting example-a steady client entered a 48 hour film contest as a vanity thing-he wrote, directed, filmed and mixed a movie in 48 hours. I got 4 hrs to do 12 minutes of music (no budget, total favor.) I took the cues I wrote for it and sent them in to a music library. Most got ignored, but 2 drone-like textures literally returned thousands of dollars. So, if you can make a little money upfront, establish or support a relationship, and then re-purpose the music- it can sometimes end up to be a win-win-win.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Oct 27, 2017)

Uncle Jesse said:


> Cheers for the all the extra information mate. Really appreciate it! I knew this forum would be a goldmine of quality information. Wasn't sure how to search up previous topics and was mostly interested in the rate per minute model which I knew was quite specific.


Yes the search engine can be a powerful tool once you start using it


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## jcrosby (Oct 27, 2017)

Atarion Music said:


> For me, it's the possibility of the nightmare or joy of working with the client. That should be a concern when coming to your fee. Are they difficult? Or easy to work with. How much time did they give you? 3 weeks of 6 months/ more? less?. Are they the EXTREMELY picky ones or do they let you do your own thing as you interpret the material they give you.
> 
> Sadly, most low budget films can rarely pay more for music. Let's say their total budget is about $12,000 for a feature, or $3,400 for a mini/short film. A per-minute rate won’t be looking to well for you... BUT!! there's hope. KEEP The rights to your music. You then add it to your catalog and receive the credit. Market yourself Unless of course your being paid enough money say - around 3k a min, then I guess you could just slide the right's into the clients hand and never think twice about it.



Well put... Yeah, do your best to vet them before saying anything other than you're interested in knowing more about the film... Granted it's virtually impossible, but if there are any opportunities to meet with, arrange a call, or wrangle a crude "spotting" session, (i.e. really just feeling them out) you can at least get a gut feeling you can trust... If your gut feeling is "on the fence" at all walk the other way... Nightmare clients can ruin your life for the duration of the film, a road you don't want to go down...


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## reberclark (Oct 31, 2017)

Taking the advice of Richard Bellis in his book "The Emerging Film Composer" I charge a flat fee of 3% to 5% of the total budget. There is also a "Meet the composer" Guide to fees here (it's a PDF file): https://2104310a1da50059d9c5-d1823d...012/09/Commissioning-Music-A-Basic-Guide1.pdf


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## rdomain (Nov 1, 2017)

For my quotes which are mostly for independent films, I work off of $100/minute of music as a guide and then take into other accounts with regards if complex compositions are needed or if I don't really care if I get the job or if I'm just very busy with other films = more money. And then also future opportunities if working with new clientele where I might charge less or take the job if I'm offered less. A $1000/minute of music would be amazing but I think unrealistic for indie films where there's usually minimal funding.


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## JohnG (Nov 1, 2017)

Sometimes I make a ton, sometimes a pittance, at least up front. I do things for friends sometimes that I would never do for a stranger (some even musical...).

Scoring low budget features, for me is not so much money as:

1. If they are guaranteed to air it on TV, you will get some back-end; and

2. Who's doing it -- is it a friend, someone I like spending time with.

Other considerations, such as exactly how much $ you make on one particular film, just aren't that important. They always seem important at the time, but later -- they aren't. I could kick myself for some of the economizing I did early on.

The main money issue for me is whether you keep the rights. If you're writing music that can work in a library, that can be worth a lot.


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## Carles (Nov 1, 2017)

JohnG said:


> The main money issue for me is whether you keep the rights. If you're writing music that can work in a library, that can be worth a lot.


I have a question about this.
Let's say that the music is obviously used by the client, but you keep the rights so you can pith it elsewhere. All clear till now.
But regarding using the same material specifically on music libraries, is it compulsory to go with non exclusive deals? or otherwise there are exclusive publishers willing to accept that the music is licensed to somebody else (meaning a single client and usage, not another library) and still get it considered as exclusive? (so you no longer can pitch the music yourself after the deal but your original client obviously still can keep their license as they did pay for it).
I find that point confusing. I'd say only non exclusive deals could apply here but actually have no idea about how these kind of deals work out.


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## procreative (Nov 1, 2017)

I would have thought most low budget films that agree to the composer keeping the rights would probably want a post-release period where it could not be licensed elsewhere? Otherwise they might as well use library music?

Surely nobody would want their soundtrack also appearing say for a advert for panty pads?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 1, 2017)

I definitely want my music appearing in an advert for panty pads.


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## Carles (Nov 1, 2017)

procreative said:


> Surely nobody would want their soundtrack also appearing say for a advert for panty pads?


As wanting... I'm surely not. But if it would happen, I'd happily take the generated royalties


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## rdomain (Nov 1, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I definitely want my music appearing in an advert for panty pads.



Word.

As for doing low budget film for low pay, I also see it as exposure if you do have the time to take on a lower paying job. Film scoring is mostly about word of mouth. If you do an amazing job on everything you do, people will notice and you will get recommended for future jobs when people are asking for any composers they would recommend.

This has totally happened to me. I had a crack at composing for a supplementary career many years ago and got sick of jobs falling through, getting ripped off etc that I stopped chasing this path. Then years later I was hit up out of the blue (a few years ago now) to do a student doco which ended up winning multiple awards and my composing jobs just kept increasing. Even won a Best Composer award (more exposure) plus a nomination at another. I currently have a queue of films waiting to be worked on! And I did that return to composing job for that student film for $50. Looking back now, a worthy investment! Could I have charged more? Possibly! But I also may not have gotten the job if the funds simply weren't there to pay me any more. Since then I have also been rehired to do more composing for them where I now charge much more than $50 

Composing is also not my main cash cow so it's a supplementary income which I truly love doing (so I don't NEED the money) and who knows, maybe it will be my main income if things keep progressing as they are as I'm now an established film composer locally at the very least. It's a fine balance the whole money thing and I believe it's a personal situation thing too. Once you're more established, I think you can lock in your fees more and more. A good example of this where I didn't get the job due to my quote.... the director couldn't afford and was bummed out but when she did have to funds to afford me on a future job, she'd get in touch. With this example, they now know your price and it also removes this whole 'how much should I charge this person'


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## chillbot (Nov 1, 2017)

procreative said:


> Surely nobody would want their soundtrack also appearing say for a advert for panty pads?


The odds of this happening are so slim... not this example specifically... but music scored to picture is extremely difficult to package/market to anything but what it was scored for. If it IS easy to package/market elsewhere, then, as you said, they might as well have used library music.

But the thing is, if they have the budget then they can own the music. If they don't, they are getting music at a discount and yes having their music appearing in an advert for panty pads, as you said, is part of the deal with getting music for cheap.

EDIT: What you said, I've certainly seen happen in some cases, not very common though... a period of 1-5 years where the music remains exclusive. Negotiating is the key to everything. The filmmakers have no right (budget) to demand this, but the composer knows that the music isn't really marketable elsewhere anyway, so...


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## JohnG (Nov 1, 2017)

procreative said:


> I would have thought most low budget films that agree to the composer keeping the rights would probably want a post-release period where it could not be licensed elsewhere?



Sometimes, they do.



procreative said:


> Otherwise they might as well use library music?



Creatively, library music could generate major limitations for a feature-length film. I may lack imagination, but it's hard to see how you could create a sustained, coherent score from library music, at least most library music I've heard. Depends on whether you want any themes or material that develops; some films don't want that. But libraries don't always / ever feature enough versions of themes that it would seem like a score made for the movie. 

Maybe if there isn't that much music or it's more needle-drop?

Money could also be an impediment to library music. Depends on the library, but 60-70 minutes of some library music would cost a lot more (hundreds of times more) than most independent features could afford, even if they could navigate the creative constraints.



Carles said:


> But regarding using the same material specifically on music libraries, is it compulsory to go with non exclusive deals? or otherwise there are exclusive publishers willing to accept that the music is licensed to somebody else (meaning a single client and usage, not another library) and still get it considered as exclusive? (so you no longer can pitch the music yourself after the deal but your original client obviously still can keep their license as they did pay for it).



Those are all fair questions. Certainly, if you're peddling them a score, you would tell the library that there is a movie out there with the music -- it will probably be obvious to them anyway that it's a movie soundtrack. Consequently, they know up front that it might be exclusive to them _as a library_ but it will be in that movie.

And sometimes they may want to re-record it and own those, but not the original recordings. Any deal can be struck.

I like the library angle and operate as transparently with them as humanly possible. They should know what I know, since we're trying to be in business together.


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## JohnG (Nov 1, 2017)

JohnG said:


> If you're writing music that can work in a library, that can be worth a lot.



There is a big "If" in that sentence ^^. As @chillbot rightly points out, quite a bit of score won't work for libraries. Some does, but I would think most does not.


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