# LiquidSonics vs 2CAudio



## Dewdman42 (Dec 1, 2020)

Alright..with all this buzz about LiquidSonics BF sale... the closest comparison I can think of with a similar suite of reverb tools is 2CAudio (open to hearing other ideas about that).

Both companies are attempting complex and all emcompassing algorithmic reverb...using different approaches. Some of the liquidsonics products are using IR's, but in a way that provides the same kind of adjustability that you normally get from algorithmic reverbs..

In any case, I'm contemplating...and kind of down to bundles from each of these companies... In the past a lot of people have raved about 2CAudio stuff. Right now LiquidSonics appears to be the flavor of the day, especially with the current BF sale...but any of you that have used both substantially..what can you say either way?


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Dec 1, 2020)

For 2 years I've been using just one reverb : Breeze 2. Now I'm using two : Breeze 2 and Seventh Heaven! 

I would still use Breeze 2 for :
- accurate spatial positioning of a dry source to match wet libraries (with Precedence) 
- Sound design / unrealistic spaces

And Seventh Heaven for :
- Adding tail
- "Glue" on the busses

So most of the time dry libraries will befenit from both reverbs in the same mix, and wet libraries would get a touch of Liquidsonics.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 1, 2020)

It seems to me like LiquidSonics Illusion and 2C Breeze are the two closest to compare in terms of being algorithmic in nature and hitting similar things... Fairly full featured algorithmic revels that sound really really good.

Both of these companies are a little frustrating because they have all these different reverb plugins.. If you have an unlimited budget then great but if not, its hard to decide which would be the best one to get. 

I have been playing around with all the demo plugins from both companies today. I think I like Breeze and Illusion the best for the combination of nice sound and control. 7th Heaven sounds nice...but I get nice sound out of Illusion with more control. I'd probably throw down $30 for 7H later on after I have more stackable discount coupons and it goes on sale again or something, just for a quick and easy nice reverb to throw on things..

On the 2C side you have B2 and Aether as further alternatives... Aether doesn't do much for me, I don't really get the differentiation, why would you ever use that instead of Breeze? Breeze seems like the natural evolution form where Aether started years before.....Dunno.. 

B2 is a different beast and kind of cool...but really more focused I guess on sound FX and so forth.. Unless someone knows of compelling reasons to use that one otherwise for room/hall simulation? 2C's Breeze is more like the sweet spot that hits a lot of the same checkboxes that LiquidSonics is hitting from all of their line...

But LiquidSonics..really has it spread out to multiple plugins with 7H (the Bricasti emu), Illusion (closest to Breeze for flexible algo) or Cinematic Rooms, which I still don't entirely understand how that one differentiates itself from Illusion either..other then the surround support... Never mind that they break it up into even more decision making by having the std and pro versions..


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## jafhouse (Dec 19, 2020)

Hi Guys, Not sure if this helps but, I have been using 2C Aether for a while now. I actually love it. A HUGE set of presets if you get the plugins. They are very useful and practical. I want to stress useful and practical! Very high quality. 

However...

I have no clue as to what the roadmap is for this product. Last update appears to be in 2015. It's like the developers just vanished but are still selling the product.


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## Jerry Growl (Dec 19, 2020)

Breeze 2 + Precedence makes a powerful combo. When used together they make a great tool, and as with many great tools there are lots of quirky things and weird aspect that take time learning about, like the hidden panel for distance frequency loss and gain loss for creating actual depth. And the fact the visual field for positioning sound sources in stereo works linear (in percentage) rather then realistic (which should have been a logarithmic scale right?)

Cinematic Rooms is now my main reverb, but all other types of positioning and wetting is 2CAudio for me. For unconventional reverbs the B2 reverb is just amazing. Also the hall & room reverbs in B2 are superb. It's only too CPU heavy(for me) to use in large projects. While Breeze and Precedence have almost no CPU burden whatsoever.


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## el-bo (Dec 19, 2020)

Jerry Growl said:


> Breeze 2 + Precedence makes a powerful combo. When used together they make a great tool, and as with many great tools there are lots of quirky things and weird aspect that take time learning about, like the hidden panel for distance frequency loss and gain loss for creating actual depth. And the fact the visual field for positioning sound sources in stereo works linear (in percentage) rather then realistic (which should have been a logarithmic scale right?)
> 
> Cinematic Rooms is now my main reverb, but all other types of positioning and wetting is 2CAudio for me. For unconventional reverbs the B2 reverb is just amazing. It's only too CPU heavy(for me) to use in large projects. While Breeze and Precedence have almost no CPU burden whatsoever.



Don't quote me on this, but I'm sure i remember around the time of the release of 'Precedence' that there was talk of eventually being able to combine it with the other 2CAudio reverbs. Perhaps @Andrew Souter might be able to confirm or deny  Of course, how practical it will be in terms of CPU is a different matter. But Andrew has shared (again, if I'm not mis-remembering) that the next B2 update will be a bit more efficient. He also shared some tips to help make the current iteration more managable (I'll see if I can track down what he wrote).


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## nas (Dec 19, 2020)

I have 2C and Seventh Heaven. 2C has been very good but I honestly I haven't used it in a while. Seventh Heaven is my main reverb now and I love it. I preferred it to CR (CR sounded a little brighter to me in general, although I'm sure they can be made to sound very similar and therefore I don't think I would need both). Also the extra plates and other spaces you get in Seventh Heaven are great - especially with the pro version which is loaded. 

My second reverb that I've been blending with Seventh Heaven lately has been Exponential Audio's Phoenix. I love this reverb! and it compliments SH very nicely. I expect though that 2C Breeze would do a great job in playing that roll and blending nicely as well. I will probably go back and revisit Breeze, but my goto for now are SH and Phoenix.


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## Piano Pete (Dec 26, 2020)

I think the other people have pretty much covered most of the talking points. 

I recently wrapped up testing and comparing 2c's offerings against LiquidSonics, and while they all are reverbs, they each do a thing well, and when used together in small amounts, they make nice complements.

Breeze - Functionality with Precedence aside: this is a fantastic verb for CPU performance. The interface is easy enough to use to quickly get to something desirable, but it also has quite a bit of depth to tweak. Settings and sound, I view this as a discount B2, but that's a little further down. With enough adjustments, you can essentially hone in onto any verb sound that you want. After putting enough reverbs next to each other and doing blind tests, the differences come down to how the various plugins function. If you want to be load a ton of reverb instances, Breeze will get a little more mileage, and it is very easy to spacialize dry sounds.

7H - It sounds like what it is emulating. It does dark reverbs well. For the price of the standard version, it's hard to pass it up. Have I duplicated its sound with other plugins like Breeze? Yes. Is it really worth it? Not really. Breeze will still sound like breeze, and when you consider the price of the standard version, why spend the time? If you already have other reverbs and just want to have what 7H does at your finger tips, grab the standard version. Unless you are enamored with the sound or want it to be your main reverb tool, I think the pro version is a luxury.

CR - If you work in surround, enough said. CR versus 7H? I was able to recreate several of the 7H patches I made with CR, but it remains bit brighter and clearer; however, if you want 7h, just grab the standard version. If you do not have a lot reverbs at your disposal, I would recommend getting CR standard over 7H pro. It appears to be able to cover a little bit more ground timbrally, so if you need a multi-purpose tool, it fills that role easier. LiquidSonics has a nice UI/control scheme that also makes it simple to dial in.

B2 - This remains one of my favourite reverb plugins, but it is the complete opposite of Breeze when it comes to system resources. It's a hog. I'm waiting for the day it is further optimized, but since Breeze can get me to around 75% of my B2 patches with substantially more instances running in parallel, it's hard to recommend it at this time. I also had to read the manual a few times to really get a grasp for what was going on with it, but if you are comfortable with 2c's other plugins, its kind of like the heavyweight version, at least for me. Currently, B2 is benched in my templates.


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## Andrew Souter (Dec 28, 2020)

Hi guys,

...another thread led me to try some interesting experiments, which are similar to things I have mentioned in the past, but with a small twist... check this out:










https://2caudio.com/sitecontent/products/pbj/community/2CAudio_PrecedenceBreezeBreeze.png




1) Insert Precedence and Breeze directly on (a) track(s).
a) Insert them POST FADER
b) Join Group 1 for both. Enable Link in Breeze
c) Try the settings shown for both

2) Add an FX Channel, and add another Breeze (or B2, or Aether)
a) Send PRE FADER to the FX track at 0dB.
b) Set track gain of the FX channel to around -18dB
c) try the settings shown if using Breeze, using 100% wet


Theory/concept:

1) Precedence is handling spatialization

2) Breeze on the insert following Precedence is handling "early energy". Note decay time is only 0.8sec, there will not be much sense of tail created by this.

3) Breeze is linked to Precedence, and moving the "Position Node" in Precedence will update BOTH Precedence AND the linked instance of Breeze in an appropriate manner. This is fully automatic. Move the Node away from center and hear the sound move back into the space. Lateral positioning is handled perfectly as well in a hyper-realistic manner.

4) This is a hybrid method were we use short times in the Breee inserts, combined with a longer, shared "tail instance" on a send. Important points:
a) the tail instance should have largish pre-delay. At least 50-100ms.
b) the tail instance should be dense, and not have obvious ERs.
c) the tail instance should be mixed at LOW gain -- it should be subtle. It functions as a global floor for the diffuse energy, such that even if Distance is minimal, there is still some degree of diffuse tail present. This floor should be equal for all tracks, and I repeat: it should be mixed low, in the -12 to -24dB range or so.

* Caveat 1: Input sound(s) should be dry-is and mono-ish. If it is not, use Precedence's Input Mode options to make it more well behaved. On dry libraries, or real close-mic'd performances the above is magic IMHO...

Note the "Vector" insert on the master. You can click on the mono/stereo button to collapse the whole thing to mono also to check for any phase issues.

Here is the Cubase 11 project if you would like to try this if you have Precedence and Breeze. ( If you have demo versions you will have to recreate the settings shown in the screen shot bc the demos do not save preset state. Or try your own variation of this general idea.)

https://2caudio.com/sitecontent/products/pbj/community/Cubase11_PrecedenceBreeze_HybridMethod.zip
To expand the project, just duplicate the audio track and drag in new audio regions and position each separately in Precedence.

I've mentioned this combination of the full "PBJ" multi-instance workflow together with one or two verbs on sends in the past. The difference here is that we have purposefully moved P and B to POST FADER, and use the PRE FADER SEND option. Thus the signal received by the "tail verb" on the send will not have been processed by the insert P and B instances already. Furthermore it will not change in volume or spectrum from the inserts. You can consider it as perfectly diffuse late energy, and it can act as both a floor level to how dry close distances will get, as well as an extra "glue".

This theme works very well and deserves additional exploration. B2 on the FX send would likely be great also instead of Breeze. Many Precedence/Breeze instances on tracks using short times of ~1sec or less with one B2 for tail with 2-4sec decay and large predelay is probably quickly approaching perfection...

edit: hmm... this has a bit of a side-effect downside of more or less requiring fader level to remain at 0dB. What we really need here is "Pre Insert, Post Fader sends" in Cubase.


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## Joël Dollié (Jan 2, 2021)

I use precedence for panning and other reverbs afterwards. Not Breeze


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