# Ultra TKT Update to V1.05



## fvi (May 10, 2006)

hi,

thanks for your scripts, without TKT (and soon SIPS) K2 would be unusable in some case.

There is 2 enhancements (one maybe off topic), I'd like to suggest :
- some patchs has more than one release trail group (Ewql orchestra), and only one can be selected in UltraTKT
- in Ostinato motives, no series of notes of the same pitch occur (say a 4 notes ostinato : A-C-E-F, A-C-E-F,...), and then UltraTKT is not triggered. It's not as awfull as the machine gun effect but it doesn't sound good. I know this is implemented for 2 notes (trills), how about for 3 or 4 notes ?

Thanks Bob


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## Big Bob (May 10, 2006)

fvi @ Wed May 10 said:


> hi,
> 
> thanks for your scripts, without TKT (and soon SIPS) K2 would be unusable in some case.
> 
> ...


Regarding the release triggering situation, I didn't know anyone was using more than one group for release samples. What is the purpose of more than one group and what determines which group is used? Maybe you can just combine the groups with some minor edits?

Regarding ostinato patterns, I suppose that we could expand the 2 in a row or trill mode to look for repeating patterns of 3, 4, etc. But one might ask, where does this end? I think a better idea is to assign a MIDI controller to enable or disable the TKT effect and use the CC (under your musical control) to tell the script when and when not to use the effect. Alternatively, the 'lazy-man's way' is to set the activation method to 'Always' and the Cycle Mode to Full-Cycle Random. Of course the disadvantage to this is that you don't always get the best samples even in situations where no machine-gun problems exist, but you always get interesting variety.

I'm planning one more update of the UTKT soon, so if you can convince me that these things you are asking for are universally appealing, I could consider including them in the next update.

God Bless,

Bob


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## christianb (May 10, 2006)

hey Bob,
first of all, big thinks for all the work you do regarding scripts. It is a dark art that is well and truly beyond my understanding.

vis a vis the ostinato, I would vote that it would be a good idea indeed.

Another separate question if you are able. How does the TKT behave on a patch that is round robin-ing samples to begin with. I have tried to figure it out but couldn't tell what was happening exactly. In theory 3 nice samples being RR'ed with tkt would give us a very nice 9 samples to play with. In a practical sense, I would guess that the 3 original correct notes would be the preferred first three to have played and 'then' go to script RR if needed. Just yakking... dont know how that could be done. Like I said... black magic voodoo to me.

thanks again

christianb


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## Big Bob (May 10, 2006)

christianb @ Wed May 10 said:


> hey Bob,
> first of all, big thinks for all the work you do regarding scripts. It is a dark art that is well and truly beyond my understanding.
> 
> vis a vis the ostinato, I would vote that it would be a good idea indeed.
> ...


You didn't answer my question about multiple release groups. You also didn't comment on what was wrong with the CC enable/disable solution to ostinato. As to the new issue you have now raised about K2 doing RR by itself, the UTKT knows nothing about it so it just keeps playing and back tuning notes as always. So for example if you have the UTKT in a RR5 situation (5 total variations), it plays something like C, C#, B, D, A#, C, ... each of course tuned to C. Meanwhile, if K2 is set to a RR4 will play the first C from group 1, the C# from group 2, the B from group 3, the D from group 4, and the A# from group1. Then, the next òTv   9ÜTv   9ÜTv   9ÜTv   9ÜTv   9ÜTv   9ÜTv   9ÜTv   9ÜTv   9ÜTv   9ÜTv   9ÜTv   9ÜTv   9ÜTv   9ÜTv   9ÜTv   9Ü Tv   9Ü!Tv   9Ü"Tv   9Ü


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## Hans Adamson (May 10, 2006)

Big Bob @ Wed May 10 said:


> fvi @ Wed May 10 said:
> 
> 
> > hi,
> ...



Bob,

I don't know much about this script, or the general practice for orchestral samples, but I have an answer from one perspective for your question.

Many instruments will give different proportions between the harmonics in a note depending on how loud it is played. This means that you will need a specific release layer for each velocity layer, to be triggered by its corresponding velocity. Piano is one instrument that requires this treatment. Probably others as well if you want to achieve the most accurate playback.

Best,
Hans


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## Big Bob (May 11, 2006)

christianb @ Wed May 10 said:


> Big Bob @ Wed May 10 said:
> 
> 
> > You didn't answer my question about multiple release groups. You also didn't comment on what was wrong with the CC enable/disable solution to ostinato. As to the new issue you have now raised about K2 doing RR by itself, the UTKT knows nothing about it so it just keeps playing and back tuning notes as always. So for example if you have the UTKT in a RR5 situation (5 total variations), it plays something like C, C#, B, D, A#, C, ... each of course tuned to C. Meanwhile, if K2 is set to a RR4 will play the first C from group 1, the C# from group 2, the B from group 3, the D from group 4, and the A# from group1. Then, the next UTKT cycle will play C from group 2, C# from group 3, etc, etc.
> ...


My sincere apologies christianb, and you're right sbkp & Thonex, I didn't notice the name change (I guess I've been working too many hours).

Regarding the multiple release groups, so far the answers seem to indicate that the selection parameter is velocity? If that is the case, then my suggestion about combining the groups will solve the problem. I realize that this requires some editing work but that would be far easier than what would be required to have the script do it. I don't mean that so much from the point of view of writing the script but rather from the point of view of using it. You would have to indicate which groups and what velocity range you wanted each group to respond to. That would require more control-panel complexity and setup steps just to handle a relatively rare situation that could be corrected at the instrument level.

Are there any situations in which there are multiple release groups that can't be combined into a single group without loss of performance?


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## fvi (May 19, 2006)

hi all, 

sorry for the delay...thanks for your replies

Bob: 
- ostinato : if you can implement a mode for 3 different notes, it will be great. For higher numbers, your advice for triggering the script with midi CC is fine.
- multiple release groups : I may have up to 3 released groups (p, mf, ff) selected by modwheel with crossfading between released samples in EWQL Symp Orch. So yes, it can't be re-programmed in one release group, but...not easily.


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## Big Bob (May 19, 2006)

fvi @ Fri May 19 said:


> hi all,
> 
> sorry for the delay...thanks for your replies
> 
> ...


What is the reason that CC control won't work for 3-note ostinato (or for that matter any musical phrase that you deem would benefit from the TKT effect)? If there is some really compelling reasons why 3-note phrases deserve a separate detection algorithm, I guess I could consider it for a future update.

As to the multiple release groups, that would be kind of a mess to implement so I think it's unlikely that I would try to include such a feature in a future version (but who knows). Maybe you could settle for a single group and some mod-wheel amplitude control (ala Tod Stillwell). The only thing you would lose would be the timbre change with volume for the release samples and, you could even fake that a little by adding EQ modulated by the MW so as you raise the volume you would also brighten the sound a little.

God Bless,

Bob


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## fvi (May 20, 2006)

thank you for the answer.
you're right, there is no difference between a 3 note ostinato and a 4 note ostinato. But there is no difference either between a 2 note ostinato (trill, implemented in UTKT) and a 3 note ostinato (suggested).
I won't use K2 programming as you suggest because it will altering the initial sound of the patches. Theses patches are made for realistic purpose, to add EQ, to modify timbre by any means... will probably goes in the opposite.
all the best.


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## Big Bob (May 20, 2006)

> I won't use K2 programming as you suggest because it will altering the initial sound of the patches. Theses patches are made for realistic purpose, to add EQ, to modify timbre by any means... will probably goes in the opposite.


I can't argue with you there, after all *it's all about the sound *and if you don't like the sound created by doing something, you probably shouldn't do it. However, I think it's the *overall* sound that matters. There are often tradeoffs involved. When you improve one thing, you may worsen something else. In such a situation, which one is better is often a matter of personal judgement. For example, if you think preserving the exact timbre of the short release sample is more important than dealing with the machine gun effect, then the issue is decided for you. Personally, I think the K2 implementation of release triggering is so poorly implemented that the effects of playing the release sample too loud or soft or with the wrong dynamics is a much bigger problem than subtle timbre changes in the sound. But that's just my opinion. This whole release sample issue (not only for the UTKT, but, other future scripts as well), needs to be agonized over much more thoroughly before any conclusions can be reached.



> you're right, there is no difference between a 3 note ostinato and a 4 note ostinato. But there is no difference either between a 2 note ostinato (trill, implemented in UTKT) and a 3 note ostinato (suggested).


Again I have to agree with you. However, let me add that I'm not too crazy about any of the 'automatic triggering' ideas. This is the main reason I added the CC option, to give the musician the control over when TKT would and wouldn't be used. I don't think any 'automatic' scheme can ever replace that. But as I said, I'll consider adding a 3 or 4-note ostinato mode for the next revision. In any case I thank you for your suggestions regardless of whether I act on them or not.

God Bless,

Bob


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## ddas (Nov 1, 2006)

It looks like Theo's domain is no more. Does anyone have the last version of this script, and if so, could it be posted elsewhere? Thanks in advance!


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## kotori (Nov 1, 2006)

ddas @ Wed Nov 01 said:


> It looks like Theo's domain is no more. Does anyone have the last version of this script, and if so, could it be posted elsewhere? Thanks in advance!



Hi David,
Please look here.

Cheers,
Nils


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## Thonex (Nov 1, 2006)

ddas @ Wed Nov 01 said:


> It looks like Theo's domain is no more. Does anyone have the last version of this script, and if so, could it be posted elsewhere? Thanks in advance!



Hi ddas,

Welcome to our forum  

Hope to see more of you here.

I'm assuming you're the same ddas that's on the NI forum... yes? :wink: 

Cheers,

T


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