# Joker Tribute - Gotham Menace



## PolarBear (Sep 19, 2008)

Massive stuff! :shock: Like it! Thanks for sharing with us.


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## Krakatau (Sep 19, 2008)

If you agree to describe the sound design aspect of your tune ?
...it might be _(once again)_  of an unexpected interest

:wink:


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## kaiyoti (Sep 19, 2008)

@RiffWraith, thanks for the comment. While the style and orchestration is a complete rip off of Zimmer and Howard's score (it's a tribute so it's okay ), the theme is not adapted from the score. I wanted to use another theme for Joker as opposed to the "batman" theme.

Anyway, on to what Krakatau is refering to... since he already knows :lol: 
This track also makes use of my VA synthetic brass, with the exception that the french horns are blended with roland samples. Trombones are complete synthesis. Strings are advanced orchestras blended with synthesizers too. The string gliss near the end is done with 2 synth string patches and AO violas samples. No woodwinds for this track :roll: (they're for sissies... did I mention I played the clarinet back in HS band?)

A lot of percussion done through synthesis combined with a few custom homemade samples. And a lot of FM and VA synths to add more percussives and to pump some extra bass. 

8)


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## Niah (Sep 20, 2008)

Wow you can't get more hollywood than this.

This is pretty fantastic congrats my friend.


This is the Joker and I approve this message.


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## kid-surf (Sep 20, 2008)

Going to be honest...

If I were Chris Nolan, I would "pass" on this cue for these reasons: 

I feel it lacks the authentic identity that is THE JOKER. He's a twisted character with flaws and subtext that I'm missing from this cue. This cue, for me, is what we call in screenwriting terms "on the nose". Seems to play right up there on the surface w/o digging deeper. I would want to 'feel' character-layers expressed below the surface. This cue, for me, represents looking at THE JOKER from the "outside in" w/o understanding what makes hit tick. I would, instead, request a cue that dissects and explores THE JOKER from the "inside out". I would request the composer READ THE SCRIPT to really figure out "who" THE JOKER is and what his "wants" are... then... compose music from the mindset as if THE JOKER himself had composed the cue.

Duality -- I would also request the composer play the HUMANITY buried just below THE JOKER'S exterior. I would suggest for the composer to think of "beauty" as THE JOKER would envision it, then the pain it causes him for NOT possessing it. Thus, DARK!

Plainly: The cue needs to be darker, harder hitting and more sinisterly-beautiful, in my opinion. Not saying it's a horrible cue but, for me, falls short of a "Hollywood Standard". So, if I were Chris Nolan (which I'm clearly not) I would "pass" on the cue on first listen. I'd need MUCH more authenticity.

It's never a bad idea for the composer to understand the story/characters and their motivations etc. Particularly when it's a $200,000,000 movie with all eyes on it. 


*One guy's straight forward opinion looking at it from a writer/director POV...


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## PolarBear (Sep 20, 2008)

kid-surf @ Sat Sep 20 said:


> Going to be honest...
> Plainly: The cue needs to be darker, harder hitting and more sinisterly-beautiful, in my opinion. Not saying it's a horrible cue but, for me, falls short of a "Hollywood Standard".


Show me one cue posted on VI Control that is better in that department... Sorry, but that will be hard to find one of those... and it's a $1000 score... I think you're right to when expectin more, but it's gonna cost you.


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## Krakatau (Sep 21, 2008)

kid-surf @ 20th September 2008 said:


> Going to be honest...
> 
> If I were Chris Nolan, I would "pass" on this cue for these reasons:
> 
> ...



very instructive , i, for one, am thanking you for that enlightments ...


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## hbuus (Sep 21, 2008)

I wish I could make music like this! It sounds d*mn nice.


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## kid-surf (Sep 21, 2008)

PolarBear @ Sat Sep 20 said:


> kid-surf @ Sat Sep 20 said:
> 
> 
> > Going to be honest...
> ...




I'm not comparing this cue to any other cue on VI, it's irrelevant. Which is why it's nothing I'd like to argue. It's an opinion. Clearly I took the time to be thoughtful... thus, my aim was not to tear the cue down but to suggest ways to wring more out of it.

Yes, great scores cost, which means they also 'pay'. Perhaps he wishes to command that sort of FEE.


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## kaiyoti (Sep 21, 2008)

Kid-surf, thanks for that elaborate feedback. But you seem to have mistaken my goal... I don't intend for a joker theme replacement, but merely a tribute. I want something that basically says "Joker, he's bad... he's the opposite of batman". I could've followed Zimmer and Howard's footsteps to create similar dark soundscapes as they had done for joker in their score. But as much as I worship them and how perfect their tracks fit, I didn't really dig those parts of the score.


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## lux (Sep 21, 2008)

The result is nice, pretty nice work.

Not sure i completey get the sense of the whole thing though. I mean, i would like to hear something more "synthy" in a sense of what happens when you replace samples with synthetized sources. Actually as i guess is an hybrid cue samples/synths that uses synths to enforce and here and there replace sampled instruments. This hybrid nature probably reduces the innovative inner potential of the entire operation in my vision. So, i would love some all synths work in the near future 

To Kid: I'm going to be honest as well. even if i'm convinced of your sincere helpful and heartful approach in your comment, i'm really wondering if youre serious about the things you suggest, expecially considering that we are speaking of a tribute to an unhearted, cliched and deprived of any innovative aspect, work like the entire new batman music adventure, even with his smashing sound impact (that i'm not going to deny in any way). 

I mean, are we really serious? expresing the inside out aspect of Joker with staccatos in 16th, ensemble pad/strings, few clusters, whistles and effects and the same taiko player, whose family suddenly became so rich a few years ago? What the op should be supposed to do? changing the chord on the pad? applying a trance gate to the 16th's? use volume to have a subtle to hard passage? really would that achieve what you are suggesting? If we were just few years ago and composer was Goldsmith we would have killed the glorious Jerry for providing such annoying material. I mention Goldsmith because he and many other composers have been heavily bashed for music they created that was ages ahead this one.

Chris Nolan should already have passed on the scores a while ago, and not on kaiyoti effort. I dont feel any better than anyone expressing such judgement, but i still have a taste and a couple of ears.

of course this is a personal and general consideration, kaiyoti has a declared reference in this case and his work is admirable.

Luca


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## synthetic (Sep 21, 2008)

I thought it was a good piece, but not scary enough. I sorta agree with what Kid was saying. Remember that there is a mix of talents on this board, from beginners to working professionals. I think it's pretty cool that the latter will give tips to the former, it's one of my favorite things about this forum, especially this subforum. 

I wish Kid had given me such unblinking feedback to my Joker tribute. :|


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## PolarBear (Sep 21, 2008)

I guess our different opinions on it are based on the "Joker" reference: While I do not pay attention so much on the title and make references to the accomplished sound (have a close look with what he's working here), the others who may be right in their critique base that on the title alone. Wouldn't be the better way to say it's just not the right title, than it's a piece not up to Hollywood (and I think it's well up to that)?


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## kid-surf (Sep 21, 2008)

kaiyoti -- Even though it's a tribute, I feel there's much more to it than "Joker, he's bad... he's the opposite of batman". Doesn't have anything to with copying Zimmer and Howard's approach, in my mind.

lux -- Yes I am serious. If we feel the original work was incredulous why not make our tribute credible? Am I serious about expressing the "inside out" by using cliches? Nope, never suggesting that. I'm suggesting the opposite. I'm not sure I understand the gist of your comments. If you prefer kaiyoti's cue to the original score, that's your right. I'm not going to argue against your opinion. Although, my opinion didn't change.


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## kid-surf (Sep 21, 2008)

> I guess our different opinions on it are based on the "Joker" reference: While I do not pay attention so much on the title and make references to the accomplished sound (have a close look with what he's working here), the others who may be right in their critique base that on the title alone. Wouldn't be the better way to say it's just not the right title, than it's a piece not up to Hollywood (and I think it's well up to that)?



Film composing is fundamentally about elevating the "film" to be the best it can be (not about the composer's ego, nor the director's, etc). A director doesn't say "Hey, great cue, it doesn't fit the film/character but it's so wonderful we'll use it anyway". Thus, we must take into consideration the cue's "intent". That's film composing.

If I were in a situation where the composer couldn't find the "voice" of the film but was delivering well executed cues I'd say something very close to what I first said about the cue... then... take it from there.


*one guy's opinion...


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## Hal (Sep 21, 2008)

very good for the genre,i like it


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## lux (Sep 21, 2008)

kid-surf @ Sun Sep 21 said:


> lux -- Yes I am serious. If we feel the original work was incredulous why not make our tribute credible? Am I serious about expressing the "inside out" by using cliches? Nope, never suggesting that. I'm suggesting the opposite. I'm not sure I understand the gist of your comments. If you prefer kaiyoti's cue to the original score, that's your right. I'm not going to argue against your opinion. Although, my opinion didn't change.



No, dont worry, its me that dont express well the concept in a non native language.

What I meant is that i dont believe you can have any real depth with the musical language kaiyoti is dealing with in this case, because, once he decide to stay into this realm, he has mostly cliched solutions. This is due to the fact that i believe those scores have obvious marketing related limits, so there are no musical chances to exit the cliche without being "virtually" rejected. 

I would suggest to leave kaiyoti alone and create a spin-off if we could feel the need of further discussion.


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## Mike Greene (Sep 21, 2008)

I think it sounds great!

Personally, I would vary the tempo a bit more and maybe make it not quite so much 4/4.

I think Kid's points are valid (although that may not have been the intent of kaiyoti's cue.) To me, the heart of what Kid is getting at is that this cue would make a director say, "Yes, he's a very capable composer. But I have a shelf of dozens of others who are every bit as capable."

Whereas in order to get noticed in a world we're not invited to, we have to go to the next level and write not just what Zimmer or Howard would have done for a routine cue, but find some emotional element that makes a director say, "Damn, he nailed this in a way nobody else did!"

But again, I don't know that that was kaiyoti's intent.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Sep 21, 2008)

In all honesty, I have some issues with this cue: 

- the dynamic range is too limited. It should more quiet during the tension, so that when we get to the more dramatic peaks, the volume is relatively louder.

- some of the drums sound blurry, at the transient level. Not sure if it's due to some time stretching/compression. This takes away from the visceral aspect of this kind of music.

- the brass sounds too mushy for me, not defined enough in terms of timbre.

- I keep waiting to get somewhere but the overall shape feels more like a machine : on or off. I suspect it has to do with this recent Batman-style writing, chord progressions that have no strong direction, no clear melodic motif of any kind (for me at least). I usually have no problems with this lesser interest in harmony and melody, as long as the timbral and rhythmical aspect are very interesting. I suspect that with killer Zebra 2 programming and the Zimmer percussion arsenal, I'll be satisfied with the OST. Going to pick it up right now!


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## kaiyoti (Sep 21, 2008)

I appreciate the vast amount of opinions given to me right now. Since I've only done music to one short feature film so far... most of these suggestions are very valuable to me. 

But to be honest, I haven't a clue what Kid and Lux are really talking about. I'm not too acknowledged with the "understand character" or the cliched sound deal. All I know is that it needs to be darker. Since it's not really written for media and there's no price on it, I'm too lazy to go back and change things. :lol: 

Aside from the fact that it's a tribute to Joker, my intention originally is really just another testbed for my synth sounds. The only sampled percussion I have in here are an abacus shaker sound and a crash cymbal. The rest are VA / FM synthed. And then more brass synth experimentation. These are only freeware synths, so the quality aren't exactly hollywood.


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## choc0thrax (Sep 21, 2008)

Look kaiyoti, Nolan is going to reject your cue if you don't start understanding the character better. Better get cracking or you'll be out looking for a new job soon.


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## kid-surf (Sep 21, 2008)

choc0thrax @ Sun Sep 21 said:


> Look kaiyoti, Nolan is going to reject your cue if you don't start understanding the character better. Better get cracking or you'll be out looking for a new job soon.



Yes, some composers would like to be in that position... 

True, some composers make it all about themselves. Fuck who these characters are, matter of fact, fuck the film. Agreed, this is about the music!


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## kid-surf (Sep 21, 2008)

kaiyoti -- if my POV doesn't ring true to you, ignore it.

Lux -- Sure, let's take this conversation elsewhere. See you in the OT.



> I think Kid's points are valid (although that may not have been the intent of kaiyoti's cue.) To me, the heart of what Kid is getting at is that this cue would make a director say, "Yes, he's a very capable composer. But I have a shelf of dozens of others who are every bit as capable."
> 
> Whereas in order to get noticed in a world we're not invited to, we have to go to the next level and write not just what Zimmer or Howard would have done for a routine cue, but find some emotional element that makes a director say, "Damn, he nailed this in a way nobody else did!"
> 
> But again, I don't know that that was kaiyoti's intent.



Exactly that, Mike. Some composers aren't after that, which is fine.


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## kaiyoti (Sep 21, 2008)

Not that I'm disagreeing with you kid-surf, it's just that so far, I haven't yet had the trouble of creating a distinguished theme for a certain idea or object. So it's pretty hard for me to imagine an approach. Your tip on "compose as if you are the character" is certainly something I've never thought of doing and I believe would improve tracks like this. 

I'm not really after compositional innovative masterpieces filled with unique techniques. It takes some real skill to write good music like that. I'm really just about making simple memorable tunes. Most of my stuff are pretty much the current hot tickets. 

If I may also make one point. Since I'm not anywhere near the professional level, the directors/developers(game) that I come in contact with aren't exactly hollywood level either. Majority of them are pretty much amazed at anything that's orchestral, has a memorable tune, and packed with some nice percussion that booms and bang. Which is what everyone can do these days. So the only way for me to stand out is pretty much by brewing my own sounds and synth. Not that it's any better in quality, but at least it'll make me that much different. That's pretty much my ultimate goal.


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## dkristian (Sep 21, 2008)

I've said it elsewhere and I'll say it here. This is great work.

Kaiyoti has managed to create a really strong, dynamic cue with impressive sounds using freeware synths and custom sounds, not thousands of $$ worth of VSL, EW and ProjectSAM libraries.

Granted, I don't care about music as much as I care about the sounds utilized to make music (be they acoustic or electronic), but I have heard things much less sophisticated than this in recent blockbuster film scoundtracks.


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## artsoundz (Sep 21, 2008)

Paul, at 22, you're doing a great job. It may be,as you grow and get a few years under your belt. you'll tire of being derivative-not to say you arent being original. But being derivative is required in this biz. But,I wouldn't sweat it- you 're developing a great foundation regardless.

I, for one, got what you are doing- your ability to use synth rather than samples. 

Very cool.


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## kaiyoti (Sep 22, 2008)

Krakatau @ Mon Sep 22 said:


> artsoundz @ 22nd September 2008 said:
> 
> 
> > Paul, at 22, you're doing a great job.
> ...



Well, that's not always a plus.... afterall, I *could* be spending the next decades of my life just boozing it up , you never know :roll:


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## Krakatau (Sep 22, 2008)

kaiyoti @ 23rd September 2008 said:


> Krakatau @ Mon Sep 22 said:
> 
> 
> > artsoundz @ 22nd September 2008 said:
> ...



Of course, but if you just keep on doing a serious and disciplinate work, as you do , and also keep a minimum of both critical sense and humility 

I don't think so...


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## Ed (Sep 23, 2008)

Krakatau I would PAY MONEY for those percussion presets you used for the Batman stuff. :D

Btw I think this a great cue, really punchy and driving. Great stuff. Cant believe its mostly synths!


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## Krakatau (Sep 23, 2008)

Ed @ 23rd September 2008 said:


> Krakatau I would PAY MONEY for those percussion presets you used for the Batman stuff. :D
> 
> Btw I think this a great cue, really punchy and driving. Great stuff. Cant believe its mostly synths!



wow wow it's not me !

The only one here, to be guilty of this crime is _* ...sir kaiyoti !*_



_il faut rendre a *César* ce qui appartient a *César !*_

0oD


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## Ed (Sep 23, 2008)

Krakatau @ Tue Sep 23 said:


> wow wow it's not me !
> 
> The only one here, to be guilty of this crime is _* ...sir kaiyoti !*_



lol, sorry both your names started with a K. :D I gotz confuused


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## kaiyoti (Sep 23, 2008)

Krakatau @ Mon Sep 22 said:


> Of course, but if you just keep on doing a serious and disciplinate work, as you do , and also keep a minimum of both critical sense and humility
> 
> I don't think so...



Duly noted.

Ed, glad you like the presets, selling them is certainly a possibility, but not quite yet...


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