# Hobbyists and Those Aiming for Film Music Careers



## Parsifal666 (Nov 27, 2016)

I'm curious...I see tons of folks here (all over the internet, in fact) buying up sample libraries and synths like crazy. I'm just wondering: what are the chances of someone actually making it in the film business today? It seems to me these libraries impose quite a world rocking expenditure in terms of funds, so either there are some big pocketed hobbyists or people who truly want to make a lucrative career out of it.

I am envious of the hobbyists and their obviously big budgets, while sympathizing with the folks aiming at making a living with their music. For the latter, I feel a mixture of cheering and sadness. Today's music world is becoming beyond flooded, especially when you talk about major motion picture trailers; the chances are probably not far from that of ultimately becoming a movie star or professional athlete (or Pop sensation, for that matter).

At the same time, I want everyone to see their dreams come true.

So, I'm curious as to the goals of folks here, and thanks so much for any input in advance.


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## chillbot (Nov 27, 2016)

Agree with most of what you said, it's obvious the market and industry are being flooded with talented people who are now able to make amazingly good music with the current level of sampling at a fraction of what it used to cost. And with the internet you no longer need to live in LA or one of the other major markets. I'm very happy I got in 20 years ago instead of today, it seems incredible daunting. (Sorry.)

I'm curious what the average "hobbyist" actually spends on samples per year though? If anyone would be willing to share their numbers. I don't get the impression these "hobbyists" (as you call them, not sure if that's correct) have such big budgets. It seems to me people on this forum are constantly weighing the pros and cons of purchases, listening to walkthroughs and demos, waiting out sales, reselling, etc. I feel like most people are very budget-conscious.

I was guessing maybe 1-2 "big" purchases per year (~$400+) plus maybe a half dozen smaller ones (~$100) maybe somewhere in the range of $1,200/year, am I completely off? That would be roughly $100/month on samples, which I know is a lot... but... just to put it in perspective one of my hobbies is golf and I spend easily 4x that per month on golf. Another hobby I have is weights/basketball and my gym membership is $100/month. I'm curious though now that you brought it up.


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## Parsifal666 (Nov 27, 2016)

chillbot said:


> Another hobby I have is weights/basketball and my gym membership is $100/month.



100 a month!?!?  Do they serve Dom Perignon-laced protein shakes?


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## chillbot (Nov 27, 2016)

Parsifal666 said:


> 100 a month!?!?  Do they serve Dom Perignon-laced protein shakes?


Two gyms... one is $40/month for me... one is $80/month for my family.... you know how hobbies can turn into addictions... also have a very nice home gym. But now that you've brought it up, dom-protein shake is going on my bucket list for sure. Maybe this was a bad example though there are tons of crossfit gyms in LA that cost easily 4x this per month. These are just the local ymcas...


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## agarner32 (Nov 27, 2016)

By a hobbyist do you mean someone who doesn't make their living composing music for media or someone who doesn't make their living in music at all? I am a full-time college music professor (theory and comp) and I've made my living in music since I was very young. I also perform really a lot as a jazz musician. However, I don't make my living as a film score composer and probably won't - my career is pretty set and I'm 58 which is probably too old to get into the business.

I decided to do another graduate degree in film score composing at ThinkSpace and since then I've gotten a few little jobs - corporate videos. There is no way I could make a living at this point though. I guess I'd consider my self a hobbyist as a media composer, but certainly not as a musician.

To answer your main question, I've easily spent $15,000 in the past 15 months or so. I used to feel a bit guilty, but I have friends who easily spend that much money on skiing in the winter and golfing in the summer. Also, if I had to do it over, I'd be a bit more judicious about buying libraries. When you first start out it's easy to get sucked into buying the latest of everything. I've slowed down by the way. I do think somebody should start a help group called Sample Libraries Anonymous - SLA. My name is Aaron Garner and I'm addicted to buying sample libraries.


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## tokatila (Nov 27, 2016)

I quitted my job to learn music, but since I'm 37 I don't have any dreams making it big in film against pool of talented people.

My focus is on video games market which is much more diversed and nowadays bigger than film market anyway. (Also geographically!)

One advantage of mine is that since I have accumulated some cash from my previous job (I have masters in engineering) and also being able to loan some money I have been fortunate to put around 20000-30000 euros to music making software, sample libraries, plugins etc. in two years time.

Another big advantage is a patient wife who can support our family while I'm learning the ropes. I would be too shamed not to succeed after her supporting us so much.


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## Karsten Vogt (Nov 27, 2016)

How many drummers, guitar and bass players and singers become stars or can solely live from their music? Very few.

I (almost 40) couldn't so I work as a software developer which allows me to buy some stuff. Of course I'd prefer living from music but I have to be realistic here. I'm most likely better at coding than producing music. 

In my opinion it's a bit vice versa: the musicians see others probably earning more money but they do what they love and the others envy the musicians while working a boring, unfulfilling office job.

I think I spent about 7000 bucks within the last 5 years for stuff like Maschine (MK 1), Komplete Ultimate 10, RME Babyface, bass guitar stuff and some pretty good sample libraries a few days ago. 

My point is: I enjoy my hobbies (music and gaming) with the same passion as most others here. And that's what counts to me. Even though I'm not perfect at what I do, there'd be a hole in my life without music. I enjoy playing with my band, with great people I can call friends, who also don't live from their music but who are pretty good though. And this is fulfilling for me. Do what you like to do and enjoy it with passion.

My name is Karsten Vogt and I think I'm about to become addicted to buying sample libraries (and bass guitar stuff).


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## chillbot (Nov 27, 2016)

agarner32 said:


> To answer your main question, I've easily spent $15,000 in the past 15 months or so. I used to feel a bit guilty, but I have friends who easily spend that much money on skiing in the winter and golfing in the summer.


I think my original estimate may have been a bit off but I also lied about what I spend on golf... it's hard to admit but if I add up all the gear and rounds it's probably close to the same. I'm fortunate to write enough music to support my golf habit... I belong in Golfer's Anonymous not SLA. I wonder if there are people on golf forums having the same conversation about "hobbyists".


Karsten Vogt said:


> I think I spent about 7000 bucks within the last 5 years for stuff like Maschine (MK 1), Komplete Ultimate 10, RME Babyface and some pretty good sample libraries a few days ago.


This is right on line with my original estimate of what non-professionals are spending. I'm still not sure "hobbyist" is the right term, I think we are talking about anyone who their primary source of income is not writing music? Is that right?


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## Daryl (Nov 27, 2016)

chillbot said:


> ...it's obvious the market and industry are being flooded with talented people who are now able to make amazingly good music...


Actually, I disagree with that. I think that the market is being flooded with mediocre people who make pretty awful music, but the clients are equally bad and can't tell the difference. Therefore actually being good is no guarantee of having a career.


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## URL (Nov 27, 2016)

...to be a film composer -break into the film industry must be very hard considering how easy it is today with all the facilities available...
Then it's good for you to be unique and have the talent to use all sample libraries, and technical resources and contacts that give you job and then you have to compose for "12hours" ... in an appropriate way...puh
Who wants to be a hobbyist with lot of money- when you can be a "poor" composer in "Hollywood".

IMHO, it's much more fun with music -than to build trains landscape as a "hobbyist"


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## chillbot (Nov 27, 2016)

Daryl said:


> Actually, I disagree with that. I think that the market is being flooded with mediocre people who make pretty awful music, but the clients are equally bad and can't tell the difference.


You're probably more correct than I am. However the sheer amount of people that the internet and cheaper samples has brought into the market means there are going to be 100x the amount of mediocre composers but I also see a big rise in the amount of really talented composers as well. And especially a rise in really talented composers that can't make a dime from their music. Wrong place at the wrong time to be good at this stuff.


Daryl said:


> Therefore actually being good is no guarantee of having a career.


EDIT: Realize I just said the same thing but from a different view.


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## NameOfBand (Nov 27, 2016)

tokatila said:


> I quitted my job to learn music, but since I'm 37 I don't have any dreams making it big in film against pool of talented people.
> 
> My focus is on video games market which is much more diversed and nowadays bigger than film market anyway. (Also geographically!)
> 
> ...


That's awesome man! To leave a promising career as an engineer, inspiring!


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## agarner32 (Nov 27, 2016)

This may be a bit off topic, but I'm curious what dollar amount per year people consider making a living as a composer. I really have no idea what that would be.


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## Jetzer (Nov 27, 2016)

I always wonder, how much talent is there really out there? I mean true talent + putting in the work. If you take football for example. There are hundreds of millions of people playing it all over the world. How many good players are there...200 maybe? Of those 200, 50 do really stand out and 2 guys out of those 50 are on an insane level. 

You could probably apply those numbers roughly to every field/industry. (business, music, science)


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## C.R. Rivera (Nov 27, 2016)

Hello all, 

As to the OP, I am a hobbyist, with some qualifications. I am retired navy, a semi-retired university/college historian, my kids are all grown and gone, and I have no training in music, thus I have no desire to pursue a "film music career." Some of you may be my age, but after a period of time, you want to do something specifically for yourself, and not for money, or, a boss. I decided a long time ago that my own attempts at creativity, or, lack of creativity, were more fulfilling to me as opposed to working for a system, or, to live or die for profit. Not trying to sound noble at this age, but, after a lifetime in the "rat race" it is a pleasure to go down to my cubby hole and scare the pets, or my students in class with images and background music of my own making  As to the expense, while it is not always costly by any means, (and I do not drink, smoke, do drugs), my wife, on the other hand, believes I spend too much on this suite or that one and my son-in-law calls my noise "music to commit suicide". One of the things, however, I quite enjoy here is the diversity of ideas, talents, questions, and discussions of sample libraries. In Columbus OH it is nearly impossible to find anyone to talk to, as I do not do EDM, or anything like that, so I am appreciative of our host permitting me to participate here.

Finally, if anyone is in the Columbus area, feel free to contact me, as I have some midi questions, and the answers are not forthcoming.

Cheers and thanks all

Carlos


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## Daryl (Nov 27, 2016)

agarner32 said:


> This may be a bit off topic, but I'm curious what dollar amount per year people consider making a living as a composer. I really have no idea what that would be.


No different from any other industry. We all have the same costs and expenses, no matter our chosen field. Being a commercial composer doesn't alter any of that.


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## chillbot (Nov 27, 2016)

C.R. Rivera said:


> my son-in-law calls my noise "music to commit suicide"


Wow hope you didn't spend much on the wedding.


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## Daryl (Nov 27, 2016)

JH said:


> I always wonder, how much talent is there really out there? I mean true talent + putting in the work.


Relatively few, which explains why the standard is as bad as it is. Beside, part of talent is putting in the work. It doesn't matter if you have all the potential ability in the world. If you don't put in the hours, you won't succeed. Unless someone in your family is a director, editor, or film composer, of course.


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## chillbot (Nov 27, 2016)

Daryl said:


> Unless someone in your family is a director, editor, or film composer, of course.


Sofia Coppola in Godfather 3, oooof. So much better behind the camera.


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## agarner32 (Nov 27, 2016)

Yeah Daryl, after thinking about it the question really was a dumb one. But it is interesting how in the arts many people are willing to live in what I would consider near poverty. I have friends who play jazz and make around 20K at the most a year and they get by. I guess making a living is providing food and shelter. Sorry for the stupid question.


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## PeterKorcek (Nov 27, 2016)

I am hobbyist and was pretty addicted to bying sample libraries in the beginning, but for the last year my only purchase was Cinematic Studio Strings, although I am looking at Metropolis I.
I think for beginners there are plenty of tools already present in the DAW or you can start low, but it can be very difficult, especially when visiting sites like this where everybody is talking non-stop about Library A vs Library B, Library C is out, Library D discounted, Black F***g Friday, etc 
I make relatively good money, but it would be great to have some portfolio/side earnings as composer - dream come true really


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## Daryl (Nov 27, 2016)

agarner32 said:


> Yeah Daryl, after thinking about it the question really was a dumb one. But it is interesting how in the arts many people are willing to live in what I would consider near poverty. I have friends who play jazz and make around 20K at the most a year and they get by. I guess making a living is providing food and shelter. Sorry for the stupid question.


No, it's not a stupid question, but you must understand that commercial music and the arts are not the same thing. If a product is good, but doesn't make money in commercial music, you've failed, but in the arts, it's enough to be good. Conversely, if a product in commercial music makes loads, but is a bit cr*p, it is a success. In an artistic sense, it isn't.

The holy grail is to produce something that has artistic merit that also makes money. Or a compromise somewhere in between, which realistically is the best that most of us hope for.

There is also the question of job satisfaction. If, for example, playing jazz every day gives you so much pleasure that you can forgo material things, or even having a family, then that's what you should do. If not, then it has to be a hobby.


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## Daryl (Nov 27, 2016)

PeterKorcek said:


> I make relatively good money, but it would be great to have some portfolio/side earnings as composer - dream come true really


And that, in a nutshell, is exactly one of the issues with the profession. So many people are using it as a hobby and to supplement the income form their day job, that there is inevitably less money for the people who want to work full time. Not that you are doing anything wrong. Far from it, but it is ironic that when people try to become full time composers, they moan about the hobbyists and the people who work for nothing, forgetting that this is exactly what they were doing for the last few years.


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## ScarletJerry (Nov 27, 2016)

I consider myself a hobbyist. I may sell something someday, but right now, I'm just composing an arranging for fun.

My job as an educator allows me to live comfortably (medium size house, reasonable debt, simple lifestyle, no gym membership, no big vacations, and no other hobbies).

I spend around $500-$1000 a year on instruments. Black Friday is my buying season and I take advantage of educator discounts when they are offered. That allows me to buy one expensive library and some smaller ones every year.

Scarlet Jerry


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## Parsifal666 (Nov 27, 2016)

C.R. Rivera said:


> Hello all,
> 
> As to the OP, I am a hobbyist, with some qualifications. I am retired navy, a semi-retired university/college historian, my kids are all grown and gone, and I have no training in music, thus I have no desire to pursue a "film music career." Some of you may be my age, but after a period of time, you want to do something specifically for yourself, and not for money, or, a boss. I decided a long time ago that my own attempts at creativity, or, lack of creativity, were more fulfilling to me as opposed to working for a system, or, to live or die for profit. Not trying to sound noble at this age, but, after a lifetime in the "rat race" it is a pleasure to go down to my cubby hole and scare the pets, or my students in class with images and background music of my own making  As to the expense, while it is not always costly by any means, (and I do not drink, smoke, do drugs), my wife, on the other hand, believes I spend too much on this suite or that one and my son-in-law calls my noise "music to commit suicide". One of the things, however, I quite enjoy here is the diversity of ideas, talents, questions, and discussions of sample libraries. In Columbus OH it is nearly impossible to find anyone to talk to, as I do not do EDM, or anything like that, so I am appreciative of our host permitting me to participate here.
> 
> ...



As a child I mostly lived in Springfield, Carlos. Thanks for a replay that was truly a rewarding read, accept my gratitude, please.


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## Parsifal666 (Nov 27, 2016)

And I'm really glad that I opened this thread, because I can't get over how many people had so much fascinating to say. You are all amazing.


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## Puzzlefactory (Nov 27, 2016)

I would be happy to just supplement my income a bit. 

Get a little portfolio together and hook up with a publisher. 

I don't have any illusions of grandeur, but I think earning a couple of extra thousand pounds a year from synch deals is an achievable goal.


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## pixel (Nov 27, 2016)

I wanted to be super star dj when I was teenager but life fixed my dreams  Now I just want to get a job in the industry. I don't need fame or anything. I'm totally into composition but rather as my personal project. I'm too slow and sometimes 2 months I need to finish 1 piece. So no chance to survive as composer that way!
Now I'm study and next year I should get to 'Sound for Games' Course in good Uni with hope that I get job as sound designer. I've heard good words from my lecturers so there's hope (sweet advantage of being around 10 years
older than my class mates  )

Film/Cinematic/Orchestral music is natural evolution of my musical journey. I have many projects with different Electronic Music genres on my account but I've got bored of it. Synthesizers, Samplers etc are not mystery for me anymore but there's is still so much to learn in orchestration department. So I'm continuing my journey


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## Andrajas (Nov 27, 2016)

I would see myself as something in between a hobbyist and "full time" composer since I'm a student in film composition. I'm 23 years old and have been studying my whole life. First took a bachelor degree in game music and now I'm doing a master in film composition. I spend between 300-500 bucks on samples every year since I'm not really rich hehe. I would see myself as pretty young and I really want to give it all to get into this business before considering working as something else. We have a pretty fair system in Sweden when studying so the debt is not as big when comparing with other countries. When studying this master I meet a lot of directors and film people and I have a good feeling about the future and hopefully I get to live my dream


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## agarner32 (Nov 27, 2016)

Daryl, again you're spot on and I completely agree. I really haven't made a living doing anything else other music. It got to the point for me as a jazz pianist that I had to start doing more commercial things to make the same amount of money. It ultimately was not good for me (the compromise) so I finished my degrees and got a full-time teaching gig. Now I can do music that is what I'd consider artful and not worry so much about doing it to eat. Funny thing is, I'm way more selective and keeping very busy.


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## Astronaut FX (Nov 27, 2016)

Daryl said:


> And that, in a nutshell, is exactly one of the issues with the profession. So many people are using it as a hobby and to supplement the income form their day job, that there is inevitably less money for the people who want to work full time. Not that you are doing anything wrong. Far from it, but it is ironic that when people try to become full time composers, they moan about the hobbyists and the people who work for nothing, forgetting that this is exactly what they were doing for the last few years.



Music was a form of communication and self-expression long before people figured out a way to make money with it, and to consider it a profession. The interesting thing about music as a profession is that you can be financially successful with a minimum of talent, or flat broke and incredibly talented, and everything in between. Success as a musician isn't always guaranteed no matter how much talent you have, or how hard you work. To some degree, success involves a bit of luck, and sadly, how willing you are to "sell" yourself.

I do get a little irritated when people express angst toward those who are "taking money away" from full-time composers. It's a bit hypocritical. True, technology has made it easier for non-pros to make music, and to make money through music. But hasn't that same technology made it easier for the full-time pros as well? How many recording engineers get less work because composers are using samples and DAWs instead of studios? How many studio musicians get less work because composers are using samples? How many web designers are getting less work because composers are creating their own websites? It's unfair to benefit from the same technology that you point to others and say they're stealing from your livelihood.


I'm a hobbyist. I've played guitar for 35+ years, can play a passable bass guitar, and have at least a working familiarity with piano/keyboard instruments. For many years when I was younger, I played in a couple of original bands, had some local success, but for many reasons (beyond talent) was unable to pull it together to earn a living. I had no interest in doing anything musical that didn't involve writing my own music.

So I returned to college, finished my degree, and now have a successful career in a technical field. I have no children, and do not plan to have any (age 49), so I likely have more free time and more disposable income than many at my age. The beauty is, that within the margins of a 40-60 hour work week, every time I sit down in my studio, or pick up my guitar, I have the luxury of doing exactly what I want. My music is pure creation, for my own enjoyment, to my own specifications, from my own self-expression.

And I wouldn't have it any other way. Having to play music that I didn't write, or didn't personally enjoy, or having a client hand me a piece of music and say, "here, write something close to this without getting us sued" is something that I just couldn't do. I believe that would cause me to hate music, and I never want that to be the case.

I truly would prefer that my music never reach anyone else's ears than to have to do any of what I described. I don't say that in a condescending manner, it's just my personal preference. Now, if the right circumstance came along, and someone was willing to pay for my music, I may consider it, but it's not a primary goal, or something that I'm working toward. Or if a hobbyist film-maker wanted me to create some music (even for free), I'd probably do it, if the parameters were right.

How much do I spend? A couple of years ago, I was spending a fair amount on libraries, but two things occurred to me. (1) Most of them can't be resold, so once spent, the money is gone forever, and (2) to be honest, what I have is plenty to keep me happy for a long time. Trying to keep up with the latest and greatest libraries...the improvements from one over the other tends to be minimal, if any. So I've significantly slowed down with regard to buying libraries. I did just buy Diva, and I bought a Toontrack EZX not too long ago. Prior to that, Omnisphere 2 was my most recent purchase. But hardware, that's another story. I've spend a significant amount on hardware synths, guitars, amps, effects, modular synths, etc. If I get bored with it, don't like it, or just want something else, hardware can always be sold.

But again, no children, I don't need luxury cars or boats, or golf clubs, etc. All of my spare time and disposable income goes toward my music fix.


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## Maestro1972 (Nov 27, 2016)

I am a hobbyist. I have spent *LOADS* of money buying samples, plug-ins, blah blah blah. For me it started off with the ability to hear with my ears what I hear in my head. Then it moved to achieving *THAT* sound. Recently, I have let go of the "perfect" sound because I was becoming discouraged with the sound of the libraries that I have purchased (so I thought). Now I am focusing on orchestration, balance, and story telling. I have zero formal training unless you count Mr. Mike Verta and Mr. Alain Mayrand*. *I got caught up in the reviews that I would hear on other peoples postings and think to myself, "that sounds amazing!" just to read the criticism (often constructive) then it dawned on me...Nothing is ever going to be "good enough" to everyone...even to me. I think that is the very nature of an artist. 

I have:
The entire EW Hollywood series (back when it was super expensive), Pianos, Storm Drums, Symponic Choir, EWSO
Orchestral tools Strings with A and B, Woodwinds, Brass, Percussion, and ARK
Spitfire Albion I and ONE
Gravity, Natural Foces, Vocalise
Emotional Cello
Tina Guo
Blakus Cello, Friedlander Violin
Cinematic Studio Piano and Strings
Sample Modeling Brass-all of them
Sonokenetic Toll (LOVE THIS)
Many Tone Upright bass (LOVE THIS TOO)
Steven Slate Drums
and much, much more.

Enough reverbs to reverberate throughout eternity! Spaces, Altiverb, Adaptiverb, and 2C-B2 to name a few
Delays, Compressors, Mastering software, 2 DAWS, 2 Computers (i-Mac and PC), I-pod,...

All the elements are there...now I am taking the time to learn the libraries that I enjoy the most and compose my music. I have no delusions of grandeur of becoming the next John Williams or Hans Zimmer. I just want to be me and compose the type of music that I enjoy. It's about growing as a musician. 

To that end, this Black Friday I have spent zero dollars.


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## kitekrazy (Nov 27, 2016)

Daryl said:


> Actually, I disagree with that. I think that the market is being flooded with mediocre people who make pretty awful music, but the clients are equally bad and can't tell the difference. Therefore actually being good is no guarantee of having a career.



I agree. No matter how good you are at using an app, it won't hide lack of talent.


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## novaburst (Nov 27, 2016)

Daryl said:


> Actually, I disagree with that. I think that the market is being flooded with mediocre people who make pretty awful music, but the clients are equally bad and can't tell the difference. Therefore actually being good is no guarantee of having a career.



Well these composers you describe are certainly not the ones doing the Star Wars theme, neither are they doing the latest block buster movie sound tracks, 

So some body out there must have some real ears, or there are still people out there that want the true talent, the true skill, and want accept average or poor music, so i would advice to get better at what your doing, get more skillful at what your doing, 

There maybe people with lots of money who dont mind or understand a poorly composed piece of music from a good composed piece of music, well good for them 

First for our self music must be a love and a strong desire to produce it and to make it sound great, once these quality's have been achieved every thing else is secondary.

But believe me there are people and directors out there that want the best and want settle for any thing less.


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## Calazzus (Nov 27, 2016)

> I got caught up in the reviews that I would hear on other peoples postings and think to myself, "that sounds amazing!" just to read the criticism (often constructive) then it dawned on me...Nothing is ever going to be "good enough" to everyone...even to me. I think that is the very nature of an artist.


I have had similar experiences. My ears aren't classically trained to know how "technically flawed" one's creation is but I know what sounds good. The average listeners don't care about that stuff, they just care if it sounds good. I watched a video of a professional composer and he said that ppl tend to place too much emphasis on making orchestral libs "sound realistic." He said making it sound good should be your focus. If ppl want to hear an orchestra they will listen to one. They won't come to you for that.


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## Puzzlefactory (Nov 27, 2016)

Daryl said:


> And that, in a nutshell, is exactly one of the issues with the profession. So many people are using it as a hobby and to supplement the income form their day job, that there is inevitably less money for the people who want to work full time. Not that you are doing anything wrong. Far from it, but it is ironic that when people try to become full time composers, they moan about the hobbyists and the people who work for nothing, forgetting that this is exactly what they were doing for the last few years.




The thing is, why not? If you spend a lot of time and money on your hobby, why not try and earn a bit of extra money back from it. 

At the end of the day, i've always just written music for the love of it and i'm not going to stop just because i can't make money from it, but i'm not going to give up trying either. 

It's a big business, i think theres room for both full and part time workers (like any other profession).


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## PeterKorcek (Nov 27, 2016)

Daryl said:


> And that, in a nutshell, is exactly one of the issues with the profession. So many people are using it as a hobby and to supplement the income form their day job, that there is inevitably less money for the people who want to work full time. Not that you are doing anything wrong. Far from it, but it is ironic that when people try to become full time composers, they moan about the hobbyists and the people who work for nothing, forgetting that this is exactly what they were doing for the last few years.



I agree with you, what I forgot to mention probably is that music is mainly fun for me, I do it as a hobby - the stage where I have some kind of portfolio/possible income (does not have to be big at all) is just thrilling for me and it's next level. But if it stays in the realm of fun and I will do songs for me, family, friends, etc, that is completely fine


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## SamplesSlave (Nov 27, 2016)

Great thread! I'll bite!

38 and married. Was a dual music and computer science major. In my 20s music really was my main passion, but I've always been a bit conservative financially, so I spent the majority of my 20s and early 30s building a nest egg (thanks to tech) and making sure I'd have to really screw things up in order for me not to be able to provide for my family.

Now in my late 30s I'm beginning to allow myself to enjoy music again. From the ages of 26-37 I probably spent about 1k a year on gear/samples/plugs/synths. This year I went a bit nuts as I got enchanted by the spitfire sound (last time I checked out sample libs the only choices were the original EWQLSO and VSL!!!!).

Within the past 6 months I've bought:
SSB
SSS
SCS
Albion I-V
"Scandi" Collection
8Dio Lacrimosa
8Dio Soprano Singers

Honestly, at 20 years in tech at this point, I'm searching creatively for something new, and my wife is a film maker, so I may actually dust off my old orchestral materials from school and try and work on some indie film projects. Who knows tho. That is probably just "The grass is greener" syndrome talking!

-Eric


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## SamplesSlave (Nov 27, 2016)

Sorry, I know I wrote a ton already, but I'll reiterate what others have echoed. I don't really like fancy vacations, I don't play golf, drink expensive alcohol (or drink at all), no drugs, I'm always willing to wait to find great deals on things, so this is the one thing in life I allow myself to do without being Mr. Grinch about it. :D


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## Arbee (Nov 27, 2016)

On the original question.

My budget? It cost me (US $ equivalent) about $25,000 to set up my little room three years ago and I spend approx. $2,000 per annum on "stuff", be it sample libraries, plug-ins, DAW upgrades etc (although if I factor in a new PC every few years and new real guitars etc every now and then, probably more). I've slowed down a little though, as I know very well that what I already have is capable of great results, it's just up to me to know how to use it fully.

My goals? When I began my full time music career at 21 (OK, in the late 70's!) I aspired to film composing but made money in music doing everything else to support that aspiration (session work, commercials, orchestrating, TV, touring, club/pub gigs etc). After 14 years of making money purely from music I concluded the 2% I was enjoying didn't offset the 98% I hated. Apart from the financial roller coaster, it was also killing my love of music. Roll forward past a 20 year career change which I loved and which also paid me well. My music goals this time around are to simply create tracks as an independent that represent the kind of music I enjoy listening to, and that utilise my currently virtual (but hopefully "real" once I've improved further and built a larger catalogue) 16 piece hybrid chamber orchestra. If any TV/movie synch opportunities arise from my pursuit of being as good as I can be at my chosen idiom, great. I no longer wish to be all things to all people musically.

When I was full time in music I had a client for a while, a highly successful businessman, who aspired to be a successful song writer and hired me to make him sound as polished as he could be (which, tbh, wasn't great). He had all the gear in the world and I wrestled frequently with the apparent irony, that I couldn't afford 10% of the gear he had.

The good news I believe, is that the wealth of gear we have at our disposal and so cost effectively, is available equally to the mediocre and the maestro. In that context, I hope it gives the talented an easier way to shine their light and to innovate. They'll just need to get heard above the "noise", of which there is so much more these days.

Anyway, morning coffee now finished.....


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## J-M (Nov 27, 2016)

Great thread, here's my short story:

I'm a hobbyist and I like it, I don't see myself as a professional composer/musician in the future, but hey, who knows what happens? I started playing guitar at the age 13 and got obsessed with it, played in a band, had a lot of fun. When the band split up a few years back I wanted to record my own stuff so I built a PC on a budget thinking that I'll probably don't need that much resources because I write simple metal...yeah, didn't turn out like I envisioned. I bought a set of monitors, an interface and a bass guitar of course. And some drum samples. Even though I started writing soundtrack-yish stuff almost a year ago, I can't remember what exactly got me into it. Maybe it was just natural evolution since I listen to bands with symphonic and epic elements+probably has something to with the fact that I'm a big fan of video games, movies, books, stories in general. Every library I have for orchestral stuff has been acquired during a sale...I have patience. And I don't even have that much:Albion ONE, two percussion libraries, The Hammersmith, a couple of vocal libraries (Shevannai & Vocalise), Era II and that's pretty much it. Of course I'd like to have more, QL Silk especially, but I'm doing pretty good with the libraries I have for now. Besides...I really need to start upgrading my PC. The fun thing is, that I used to feel almost guilty about purchasing those libraries, especially in the beginning. I guess I felt that I was just wasting my money because I was so new to that stuff, but the fact is that I'm more creative than ever before! :D Oh dear, I think I've strayed a bit from the subject... Anyways, I'm now 21 and I study in a university so naturally I can't be spending all the time, because I currently don't have a job. How can I afford this very expensive hobby of mine, then? Well, I've been fortunate enough to have a summer job (which I happen to like) every year since I was 15 years old, in the same company as well. I try to save up. I don't spend very much on things that aren't music related, as nothing makes me as happy as making music. I also drink very rarely because it's very expensive and to be honest, I don't find it very fascinating. Some people find this to be a bit odd because I'm a university student and a Finn. :D


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## Desire Inspires (Nov 28, 2016)

I don't want a film music career. I just want to make music for music libraries and generate hefty royalties. I will make anything that is fun at the moment. Hip-hop, EDM, Pop, Trailer music, hybrids of stuff, just whatever will get licensed.


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## C.R. Rivera (Dec 1, 2016)

chillbot said:


> Wow hope you didn't spend much on the wedding.


I still love him


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## leon chevalier (Dec 1, 2016)

If you believe in multiverse, there is actually a good change that everyone here is the Hans Zimmer of another universe! 

... I just have to find a way to get in touch with that other me ...

... 

... maybe if I buy enough samples library I can create a kind of black hole in my bank account that will connect me to that other universe...

...  

... and then I just have to kill myself to take my own place...

...


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## Puzzlefactory (Dec 1, 2016)

That might not work if the theory of "quantum suicide" is true...


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## chibear (Dec 1, 2016)

To the OP: I'm a retired horn player; during my student years I was able to become one of the top 10 grossing free lance hornists in Chicago (success as much from playing politics as talent). For the next 20 years I was Principal Horn in various orchestras and for the 17 after that 4th horn in the town I decided to end up in. All this interspersed with teaching at the local university, chamber music, and recording.

Now retired and a hobbyist. I am financially comfortable, so don't really need the work. The reason for the curriculum vitae above is to point out that I do know the industry and what it would probably take to break back in and am not very sure I want to do that again. My BS tolerance is pretty close to 0, and even before retirement I had trouble dealing with the ignorant elitists that this type of work attracts to the periphery and management.

Meanwhile Clyde (not my real name) is registered as a stage name with the AF of M and my previous career gives me a pool of extremely talented musicians should the situation and funds arise.......just in case  Now, however, a hobbyist.

As for funding, my first DAW and early libraries were funded from profits I made in Second Life where I also obtained the 'Clyde' identity. That pretty much has collapsed as has the hopes of a music-centered business involving Second Life, so is only worth <> $50 a year. Now the hobby is pretty much funded out of pocket.


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 1, 2016)

chibear said:


> Now retired and a hobbyist. I am financially comfortable, so don't really need the work. The reason for the curriculum vitae above is to point out that I do know the industry and what it would probably take to break back in and am not very sure I want to do that again. My BS tolerance is pretty close to 0, and even before retirement I had trouble dealing with the ignorant elitists that this type of work attracts to the periphery and management.



Terrific post! Being that I'm still "in the business", I completely feel your pain in regard to the BS meter. Living with that is a fact of life, and I had to accept it (better: become resigned to it) long ago.

Just a few of the stumbling blocks: people will try to sweet talk or browbeat you into anything (one requires a seriously thick, armadillo skin); the business is so mired in commercialism today that the lack of any sort of "gimmick" is crippling, etc. The reality of the whole circus/MacDonalds disposable "culture" can really wear on anyone trying to both make a buck and make a personal statement in this world, so at times one has to just completely put aside one's heart-ambitions to even be heard at all.

In a way I envy the hobbyist, he or she gets to make music solely for the joy of it. That's really cool. I still feel the joy, but I no longer let myself gush like I used to, as such wanton enthusiasm (whether coming from you or your enthusiasts) can work horribly against you.

I realize that I complain too much about the music business of today, when the reality is I should be more than happy I'm able to at least pay the rent.


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## kurtvanzo (Dec 1, 2016)

agarner32 said:


> Yeah Daryl, after thinking about it the question really was a dumb one. But it is interesting how in the arts many people are willing to live in what I would consider near poverty. I have friends who play jazz and make around 20K at the most a year and they get by. I guess making a living is providing food and shelter. Sorry for the stupid question.


Not a dumb question, but a moving target. I agree pro just means you can support yourself with music. Considering how hard it is to make decent money, even here in LA, I think if your covering your expenses that's pretty good. And then where you live makes a difference. The cost of living in LA can be so high that making a living can be harder- but 40k a year might work great in Columbus. 

Standing out in a musical crowd is difficult, whether your talented or not, but putting the time in is necessary and working on your sound is also a must. People seem to choose a composer based on liking their style and seeing it as "the sound" of the film or project. So getting your style down can help you to stand out. Which also means getting better at self promotion. Tough. Ironically I kind of wish there were still studios hiring "in-house " composers- some may have felt they were getting less than they should (probably true in most cases) but they could focus on "just music". Now that only occurs with the hobbyist (which just means they don't support themselves)- I think this is a better term than the old one .... "Novice".


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## Baron Greuner (Dec 1, 2016)

Daryl said:


> Actually, I disagree with that. I think that the market is being flooded with mediocre people who make pretty awful music, but the clients are equally bad and can't tell the difference. Therefore actually being good is no guarantee of having a career.




Heheheh!


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## stixman (Dec 1, 2016)

Maybe the difference lies in self confidence levels self belief


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## Symfoniq (Dec 1, 2016)

I'm a music hobbyist with classical training. I decided a long time ago that I was probably not enough of a collaborator to be a Hollywood composer—I'm just too stubborn and independent. I create music to feed my soul, not my stomach, and I'm just fine with that.

$1,800 to $2,000 per year on this hobby is probably about right. A bit more this year. It's cheaper than many potential hobbies. Also, my wife encourages it. She says I'm a happier person when I spend at least some of my week making music.


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## JohnG (Dec 1, 2016)

Parsifal666 said:


> Do they serve Dom Perignon-laced protein shakes?



Mine does -- don't they all do that?



Parsifal666 said:


> I'm curious as to the goals of folks here, and thanks so much for any input in advance.



I read through some of the thread and as so often happens, it seemed some were close to conflating the idea of artistic validity and making money at it. Put differently, society overall seems today to have formed a reflexive habit of evaluating the "success" of pursuing music, or studying some subject in college by its financial rewards. If you're working on big budget movies, that's success, and if you never make a dime and actually spend $25,000 or something on gear and samples, but don't make much or any money, that's failure.

But I doubt that actually many people really do think that way here, or that even a majority believe "money equals success" when it comes to music.

I mean, if you want the highest rate of return, you'd study engineering or business and make money-money-money from the start, and never look back. Nobody would study poetry or painting except the new Shakespeares or Picassos and the rest of us would just toil away, build our bank balances and then die.

*Why Are We Here?*

I'm on v.i. control partly to try to help others because a lot of people have helped me; partly to get help from those kind enough to do so; and significantly to avoid _wasting my time with products that will be unrewarding._

I don't care how much a sample library costs if it's really good. I bought EWQLSO [years ago] when it cost over $4,000 and I have invested a fortune in East West, Spitfire, u-he (well not a fortune there !), 8dio, Soundiron, Spectrasonics -- a lot of it -- to make great sounds. My time will run out sooner or later and I won't have the chance to do this any more. So at that point, an extra $5,000 or even $75,000 in my retirement accounts won't make any difference to life satisfaction, but having done some halfway respectable, or at least halfway competent music will.

Kind regards,

John


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 1, 2016)

JohnG said:


> Mine does -- don't they all do that?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You sound like a winner!

+1,000,000


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## Niah2 (Dec 1, 2016)

I am working on a documentary film about women's rights in India which I'm really passionate about it, but so far it has been a total nightmare (producers ugh!).

I am definitely the happiest when I am making my own music for my albums, they are my pride and joy. When I think of them I feel that I have lived my life to the fullest, and I don't think I will have any regrets when I'm gone.

Like others I am also lucky that I can do that and not worry about money. I don't depend on music to pay the bills so I'm free to pursue my creative endeavors. 

Since I am not much into commercial music only a few offers on the market regarding sample libs and vst's really interest me. Although I reckon that there is so much stuff out there that's utterly amazing. 

In recent years I have invested more on real instruments (rare, weird, 2nd hand, cheap, old, vintage) and different ways to perform them. That has made me less dependable in relation to the sample libs market and has made my music more personal. Still there will always be stuff out there in the market that I will be drooling all over.

Regarding goals I would like to have a piece of mine performed by a real orchestra or ensemble but I still haven't come up with a piece that would work for that. Also maybe scoring a contemporary dance piece, making a short film and score it, I don't know so many stuff...


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## Mike Fox (Dec 2, 2016)

I compose horror music, and would like to be a well known name synonymous with it. That's my ultimate goal, BUT...

First and foremost, I'm a probyist. I write music for haunted attractions, and I sell my music online. It's not enough to pay the bills, but it's enough to justify the 7K I've spent in the last 6 years on my sample libraries. That's about $100 a month, but honestly, I now own every sample library I've always "needed", and I have a feeling I won't be making any big purchases for decades. Most importantly, I'm quite happy with the notion that I may never reach my ultimate goal, because I'm already doing what I love: composing horror music.


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## Mike Fox (Dec 2, 2016)

This is arguable the funnest thread I've read in a while.


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## NoamL (Dec 2, 2016)

In my limited experience, the reason this forum is full of hobbyists is because we're the ones agonizing over which library to purchase. The professionals don't bother with either-or decisionmaking or endless comparisons of libraries, they simply buy everything. If you committed to purchasing every major release from SF, OT, etc. that would probably amount to 5 to 7 thousand dollars per year or so? Not that crazy compared to other costs of being a working composer like retaining an agent, paying several assistants, renting or building an acoustically treated studio, upgrading your computer, and even contracting recording sessions.


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## JohnG (Dec 2, 2016)

NoamL said:


> The professionals don't bother with either-or decisionmaking or endless comparisons of libraries, they simply buy everything



Well, this is what I do full time as a career, and I definitely don't buy everything. It's not worth the time going through every patch in every library. I rely on walk-through videos and the advice of others to sift through what to add to what I already have.


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 2, 2016)

JohnG said:


> Well, this is what I do full time as a career, and I definitely don't buy everything. It's not worth the time going through every patch in every library. I rely on walk-through videos and the advice of others to sift through what to add to what I already have.



This is where I run into trouble time-wise. Like now, I spent the day going back and forth between the manual and videos for the Chris Hein Solo Violin, just to make sure I get as much out of it as I can. I had a lot of fun, but I still have five other libraries, and all of the next five days (I'm not currently commissioned for anything) I'll be studying up on them. It does take some serious investment, and not just of time.


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## JohnG (Dec 2, 2016)

Parsifal666 said:


> It does take some serious investment, and not just of time.



I hear you. For me, time is always the enemy. If you want to make something musical with samples, there is no escape from laboriously toiling through them and gleaning the good from the dross.


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## higgs (Dec 2, 2016)

I've spent more on my "studio budget" than I care to think about, so I live in constant -yet cautious- denial. But for me, every time I sit down at the workstation and get to working/playing, I really enjoy myself. I like the process of learning, playing, and pushing myself so much, that so long as I'm not eating Oodles of Noodles more than a few times a month, then I'm fulfilled (there's the wife factor too, but that's a different matter all together). 

After a big move from Austin (The Third Coast) to the dry rural reaches of northern California, I've taken a hit in the pocketbook when it comes to making money from music. My music earnings are lower than my music spending at the moment, but even though I'm not dripping with money I feel successful in my own level of happiness. So I guess, if you can afford it and you want it then do it. Success -like beauty- is in the eye of the beholder.


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## JPQ (Dec 3, 2016)

My yearly music stuff budget is about 500euros i think often. Last year i think its Novation Bass Station 2. and this year is Waldorf Blofeld. Next year i dont yet know but i feel i need so much. Maybe bit less if i do purely sytnhetic stuff but i want do all kind things.


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 3, 2016)

JohnG said:


> I hear you. For me, time is always the enemy. If you want to make something musical with samples, there is no escape from laboriously toiling through them and gleaning the good from the dross.



I've actually caught myself looking back over a couple of weeks and realizing I'd spent more time trudging through a sample library than doing anything potentially lucrative (including looking for work in the field).


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## ModalRealist (Dec 3, 2016)

Although music is "just" a hobby for me, I take it quite seriously as and when I am doing it. Over the last few years, I've spent thousands on sample libraries, software, tuition, recording sessions, and a not inconsiderable quantity of manuscript paper. Why? Two reasons. Firstly, I just _enjoy _making music; I find it intrinsically satisfying to listen to something I have written or produced myself. Secondly, music is important to me in a broad sense, and I feel that being able to perform and write music is as essential as being able to speak and write is to my interaction with literature. Samples give a fascinating avenue into producing a "performance" of sorts.

Within that context, I don't feel too bad about the money I've spent. I stay within my means (my total means being under half the average UK salary, per annum). But I have few other costs: rent, food, utilities, books. I confess I am continually astounded by how much money a lot of people seem to get through in their daily lives... A little bit of care and attention goes a long way to really cutting your costs _and _boosting your living standards. At least here in the UK.

There's one other reason which I have used to justify to myself the expense, and it's the same one that I use to justify my Creative Cloud subscription. Namely, that these tools _do _give me options and access to create things I could not otherwise create, and the door is then open for me to (a) being building skills, and (b) begin building products. Although I have not broken financially even on _either _Creative Cloud _or _my samples libraries, I do believe that, if success in my current endeavours does not come my way, then both _will _end up not just breaking even but turning a profit. Given how much pleasure and skill development I've gotten out of both _so far, _that will be just the icing on the cake, and the silver lining to the dark cloud of failure in a different endeavour.


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## mwarsell (Dec 4, 2016)

Regarding gear: Mozart didn't complain that all his contemporaries had the access to the same sounds.


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## Living Fossil (Dec 4, 2016)

mwarsell said:


> Regarding gear: Mozart didn't complain that all his contemporaries had the access to the same sounds.



From a historical point of view, this sentence neither makes much sense nor is really true.
In Mozart's time, "access to sound" didn't meant sample libraries, but good singers and musicians.
With a great opera singer, you could expect a performance that turned a good melody into gold. Singers (and musicians) were perfectly trained how to use ornamentation and improvisation. And, depending on the region you worked, the instrumentalists had quite different traditions of playing. Mozart visited many places and - working in different places - in fact it was an important aspect for him where he could get which interprets.
Also, Mozart was highly regarded as a musician, and he made a lot of fun and dismissive comments about colleagues with a worse "sound".
But, if it comes to the possiblities of sound, mentioning Bach would even be more interesting.
Bach was highly regarded as an organist, but not that much as a composer.
Lully was a really big star composer at that time, having the opportunity to work with great musicians. Händel was a star in England, working with fantastic musicians.
Bach on the other hand worked often with hobbyists. He not only complained about it, he even attacked a musician with his sword because he was so frustrated about his performance.
The quality of the performing musicians makes a huge difference in sound, not only since the existence of sample libraries.
And beeing successful gives you access to collaborations with great musicians.


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## Fab (Dec 4, 2016)

Living Fossil said:


> he even attacked a musician with his sword.



lol


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 4, 2016)

Living Fossil said:


> The quality of the performing musicians makes a huge difference in sound, not only since the existence of sample libraries.



It's a big deal. One of the things that really rings loud and strong about Living Fossil's post is the importance of improvisational ability. I used to be guitar crazy back in the 80s, and in the middle of that decade there were TONS of kids who were going to schools in order to learn how to be great rockers, and upon "graduation", the majority of them sounded almost exactly alike. They were great for when it came to reading and playing in general, but the real test was when they'd get put into a situation (contrived by us other musicians to be "out of nowhere") where improvisation was demanded. A set of bars that begged for an impassioned guitar solo, for example. This was where so many of them proved their book learning. Practically all of those kids would get confused and ultimately angry, fumbling...blaming us for their deer-in-the-headlights performance. The ones who had a great handle on that kind of situation were strikingly good, and often showed more of their unique style through such a test.

I learned recently that it's also the mark of a great soldier, something I found completely understandable.

Of course, improvisational ability is just one sign of a quality player, I just wanted to expand on what LF said with something specific.


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## Desire Inspires (Dec 4, 2016)

You guys know a lot about history.


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## dcoscina (Dec 4, 2016)

You do realize that many of our famous European composers weren't career composers. Mahler was a conductor. Most of the Russian five inhabited other more mundane positions. Ives was in insurance. 

If you plan to try to make music a career, be prepared for a lot of artistic compromises, deflating experiences where you pour your all into the project only to be cast aside for the next composer, and a lot of investment in time, training, and gear. 

It can be very rewarding when you do get paid work. I had a run of it this past summer while I was in between day jobs and even though the music I was writing was fairly generic by most standards, I found little ways of inserting my music personality in each ad. I miss being creatively engaged even if it wasn't scoring the next Spielberg film. Much better than the moronic job I have now. Day jobs suck. They are the death of the soul and creativity. At least in my experience.


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## AllanH (Dec 4, 2016)

Thank you for a wonderful thread. I certainly have no illusions that I'll be the next HZ. For me, the true value in making music is the creative aspects of writing, orchestrating and then recording the music. I've written music for a long time, and have had some of it performed, but with all the modern VIs I feel that my palette of expression is so much bigger than ever before. That some enjoy listening to the music is an added bonus.

While I considered a music career a long time ago, I ultimately chose a career where I thought I had a better chance of making good and stable living. For quite a number of years, music (playing and writing) took a lower priority. Now I have the freedom to pursue it to a much greater extent and not worry too much about the money.


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## jonnybutter (Dec 4, 2016)

Parsifal666 said:


> It's a big deal. One of the things that really rings loud and strong about Living Fossil's post is the importance of improvisational ability. ...



Agree there. Any good European musician of Beethoven's time, or Bach's as well, would be able to improvise at least a bit. Bach improvised fugues. LVB used to improvise at the piano before, say, the performance of a symphony. Cadenzas in concerti were supposedly improvised, but I think Mozart got picky and started writing out his cadenzas, and then LVB too.

I don't know how improvisation was bred out of professional 'classical' music, but we know *when* it happened: when so many bad musical things happened, i.e. the mid-late 19th century (including early 20th)! 

Working with samples alone in a studio can wash out the line between composition and improvisation. I'm not sure where that line ever was, anyway! When you come up with an idea - usually away from a piano - could you not be said to be improvising? If you improvise at an instrument, then edit what you did, and think about the themes for a day or two, are you not composing? I'd say 'yes' and yes'.


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## mwarsell (Dec 5, 2016)

What I meant with the Mozart comment was that he had access to the same keyboard sounds. Should've specified.


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## Living Fossil (Dec 5, 2016)

mwarsell said:


> What I meant with the Mozart comment was that he had access to the same keyboard sounds. Should've specified.



Unfortunately, that isn't true either.
History shouldn't be confused with one's personal imaginations and fantasies about it.
There are tons of books and other evidences about the past. It's no black magic, it's an object of research.


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## Pixelee (Dec 5, 2016)

I'm still not sure if I want to do film after doing 2 films (indie). I'm a part time composer doing mostly trailer libraries and some tv stuff. Just started getting into the companies. I wouldn't be where I am if I didn't have all you Vi-control sharing information! (I just started, mind you). Thanks to Daryl for taking a look at my contact!

Edit: I spend about 600 a year on samples. This year I upgraded my Cubase only. I've been doing more demos for sample libraries to save a bit.


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## mwarsell (Dec 5, 2016)

Living Fossil said:


> Unfortunately, that isn't true either.
> History shouldn't be confused with one's personal imaginations and fantasies about it.
> There are tons of books and other evidences about the past. It's no black magic, it's an object of research.



Huh..what I mean that give a piano to Chopin and then the same piano to Mozart, I guarantee that their output would differ. Although the physical instrument is the same. Hence it doesn't matter if we all use the same libs. We still should sound different. But I don't know why I'm talking about this so fervishly. Nobody even brought it up


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## Living Fossil (Dec 5, 2016)

mwarsell said:


> Huh..what I mean that give a piano to Chopin and then the same piano to Mozart, I guarantee that their output would differ. Although the physical instrument is the same. Hence it doesn't matter if we all use the same libs. We still should sound different. But I don't know why I'm talking about this so fervishly. Nobody even brought it up



I just don't get it why you try to make historical comparisons, if you're not familiar with music history.
Chopin was born 1810, Mozart 1756.
They didn't use same instruments, and the pianistic style of both represents pretty much what was possible on the instruments they used.
On the other hand, if you compare apples with apples, things are different:
I don't think you could really tell which piece is of Mozart and which of another famous composer of his time in a blind test. Of course, there are "typical" elements in his music, like the "singing allegro", but i think you would wonder how similar other composers sounded, which also influenced him.


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 5, 2016)

mwarsell said:


> Huh..what I mean that give a piano to Chopin and then the same piano to Mozart, I guarantee that their output would differ. Although the physical instrument is the same. Hence it doesn't matter if we all use the same libs. We still should sound different. But I don't know why I'm talking about this so fervishly. Nobody even brought it up



There's obviously some validity to your point. However, I think even then there were not only different manufacturers, but differing characters in general to each piano. I wouldn't doubt you've already thought of that, I just wanted to make sure this fact got out there. I've owned tons of violins, cellos, and especially guitars, and each had idiosyncracies that made it different. I never found a single instrument that sounded and/or behaved exactly like the other, regardless of manufacturer. I could be wrong, and would welcome arguments.


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 5, 2016)

Living Fossil said:


> I just don't get it why you try to make historical comparisons, if you're not familiar with music history.
> Chopin was born 1810, Mozart 1756.
> They didn't use same instruments, and the pianistic style of both represents pretty much what was possible on the instruments they used.
> On the other hand, if you compare apples with apples, things are different:
> I don't think you could really tell which piece is of Mozart and which of another famous composer of his time in a blind test. Of course, there are "typical" elements in his music, like the "singing allegro", but i think you would wonder how similar other composers sounded, which also influenced him.



Well, Mozart inherited (and overused, as was the proclivity of that era) that whole second-to-third-trill-culminating-in-the-root thing that at times made his pieces very similar. Chopin came more from the Beethov-ian school of free expression, more specifically trying to avoid the rococo style. Of course, they were both on a level of brilliance that seems to mostly be lacking today but oh well, that's another can of worms we don't have to get into here.

Listen to select pieces of Haydn and Mozart (and perhaps Monteverdi) and yes, it can be hard to know the difference, not just if you were unschooled. There are critics of Mozart (including highly respected musician/composers like Gould) who denounced him specifically for that reason, calling him a hack because he mostly just wrote for the "Dynasty", etc. (as laughable as that criticism might seem to many people...me included).

Apologies for being off topic.


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## Living Fossil (Dec 5, 2016)

Parsifal666 said:


> Listen to select pieces of Haydn and Mozart (and perhaps Monteverdi) and yes, it can be hard to know the difference, not just if you were unschooled.



The really interesting part is listening to contemporary composers of Mozart who were the big stars of those times and who are more or less forgotten now. 
That's an interesting pattern through history that there were always does artists who perfectly captured the "special feeling" of their time (in German, you would say: "Zeitgeist"), who were the big stars. And then, there were those composers who didn't had this ability so much but worked on a higher level of quality. In the end, very often the composers of the latter category survived the passage of time.
But specially media composers should have an interest in composers like Lully, Meyerbeer etc.


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 5, 2016)

Living Fossil said:


> The really interesting part is listening to contemporary composers of Mozart who were the big stars of those times and who are more or less forgotten now.
> That's an interesting pattern through history that there were always does artists who perfectly captured the "special feeling" of their time (in German, you would say: "Zeitgeist"), who were the big stars. And then, there were those composers who didn't had this ability so much but worked on a higher level of quality. In the end, very often the composers of the latter category survived the passage of time.
> But specially media composers should have an interest in composers like Lully, Meyerbeer etc.



Meyerbeer was a very heavy influence on Wagner early on, and one I know about and appreciate as well. He's definitely worth looking into, I completely agree.


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## jonnybutter (Dec 5, 2016)

Living Fossil said:


> I don't think you could really tell which piece is of Mozart and which of another famous composer of his time in a blind test.



Hmm. I know we are way off topic here, but this really isn't true if you know the literature. Very early Mozart might sound kind of similar to some other classical composers (alberti bass and all that), but after a certain age, Mozart is usually pretty distinctive. Musicians at the time certainly could tell the difference! 

I don't know if by 'Gould' you mean 'Glenn Gould'. If so, remember that he was pretty eccentric, and not that well respected by his peers. Gould not only didn't particularly like Mozart, he also didn't like much of Beethoven - after Opus 14 or so. I think those peers were wrong - Glenn Gould was a *great* musician. But he was definitely odd. Besides, who cares what 'respected peers' think? Many of them were certainly wrong about Gould.

If you mean MORTON Gould, well...the joke writes itself (even if he had a point): 'Carl Ditters von Dittersdorf criticizes Beethoven as a crowd pleaser'! In 20 years no one will remember who Morton Gould was.


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## jonnybutter (Dec 5, 2016)

Living Fossil said:


> an interesting pattern through history that there were always does artists who perfectly captured the "special feeling" of their time (in German, you would say: "Zeitgeist"), who were the big stars.



Yes, that is interesting! In Bach's day, I believe it was Telemann who was much more well known as a composer. And even more prolific. Listen to Telemann now and...yawn (in my opinion anyway).


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## Alatar (Dec 5, 2016)

To get back on topic: I am a hobbyist. Normally I spent about $1200 per year on sample libraries. 
But not so much this year. This year I have roughly spent $1000 on learning to play the Cello. I mean: The real thing, not a library  
It's actually quite fun and I can already play simpler songs.


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 5, 2016)

jonnybutter said:


> Hmm. I know we are way off topic here, but this really isn't true if you know the literature. Very early Mozart might sound kind of similar to some other classical composers (alberti bass and all that), but after a certain age, Mozart is usually pretty distinctive. Musicians at the time certainly could tell the difference!
> 
> I don't know if by 'Gould' you mean 'Glenn Gould'. If so, remember that he was pretty eccentric, and not that well respected by his peers. Gould not only didn't particularly like Mozart, he also didn't like much of Beethoven - after Opus 14 or so. I think those peers were wrong - Glenn Gould was a *great* musician. But he was definitely odd. Besides, who cares what 'respected peers' think? Many of them were certainly wrong about Gould.
> 
> If you mean MORTON Gould, well...the joke writes itself (even if he had a point): 'Carl Ditters von Dittersdorf criticizes Beethoven as a crowd pleaser'! In 20 years no one will remember who Morton Gould was.



I meant Glenn, and he was about as controversial as you could ask for, agreed. I should also mention the great Maria Callas as an outspoken detractor of Mozart (both she and Gould pointed out the composer's predilection for easily resolving patterns and thus, in their words, diminished personal expression). I must mention that there are late symphonies and quartets by both Haydn and Mozart that were deemed indistinguishable by more than a few musician friends of mine (mostly Rock and Pop musicians who didn't really listen to or know classical music). One can learn TONS from any of those composers, and quite a few others.

But hey, I could be wrong. I studied Mozart and Haydn early on, but once I discovered late-era Beethoven, Wagner, Schoenberg, and Mahler I mostly just liked the former two's "greatest hits". The latter four just captured me, and my studying went on for years and years...continues to this very day. But that's just me.

Way off topic, apologies again.


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## Living Fossil (Dec 5, 2016)

jonnybutter said:


> Hmm. I know we are way off topic here, but this really isn't true if you know the literature. Very early Mozart might sound kind of similar to some other classical composers (alberti bass and all that), but after a certain age, Mozart is usually pretty distinctive. Musicians at the time certainly could tell the difference!



It's the view backwards that creates this impression...
Mozart was adapting every style he heard and there were many at that time. (I'm not tallking about Alberti bass, and such commonplaces)
btw, i wasn't mentioning any Glenn...


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## Kony (Dec 5, 2016)

Living Fossil said:


> It's the view backwards that creates this impression...


I respectfully disagree ... and compared to what, view forwards? There's a reason Mozart stands out, not because he sounded like every other composer of his time


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 5, 2016)

Kony said:


> I respectfully disagree ... and compared to what, view forwards? There's a reason Mozart stands out, not because he sounded like every other composer of his time



Well, he did use the very same templates as Haydn (and of course, most others of that era and even early Beethoven and Schubert did so). That said, he brought (among many other things) a way with melodicism to the table that has probably been unmatched since.

Anyhoo, I'm feeling guilty about derailing this thread so much, so I'll respectfully bow out.


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## mwarsell (Dec 5, 2016)

I'm aware that Chopin came much later into the picture, possibly a bad example. Living Fossil, I really like your knowledge of the music history. I used to study that at a Uni, but you are probably a professor or something. And it's great to have people of such knowledge aboard.

Ps. When I was around 10, my friends had posters of KISS and WASP on their room walls. I had pictures of composers. Then one of my friends paid a visit and his reaction was:"You have what s**t in here?"


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 5, 2016)

mwarsell said:


> I'm aware that Chopin came much later into the picture, possibly a bad example. Living Fossil, I really like your knowledge of the music history. I used to study that at a Uni, but you are probably a professor or something. And it's great to have people of such knowledge aboard.
> 
> Ps. When I was around 10, my friends had posters of KISS and WASP on their room walls. I had pictures of composers. Then one of my friends paid a visit and his reaction was:"You have what s**t in here?"



(can't help but butt in) Kiss and WASP were FUN!


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## Living Fossil (Dec 5, 2016)

Kony said:


> I respectfully disagree ... and compared to what, view forwards? There's a reason Mozart stands out, not because he sounded like every other composer of his time



Let's agree to disagree. 
What i mean is: either you focus on what people have in common or on what they have not in common.
Composers who are not famous usually are compared (and judged in comparison) to famous composers.
The usual verdict is: He sounds a bit like him or her or him etc.
Once they have their status, people try to find what makes the difference.

If we speak about Mozart and what distinguishes him from his contemporaries, in my personal opinion i would mention the extreme perfection of dealing with harmonic details, details that often take place in very short passages. The perfection and fantasy in the architectural use of harmony. And then (as mentioned above) his melodic language (singing allegro).
But still he sounded pretty much like his contemporary composers. And if one takes a closer look, it's astonishing how much good music coexisted in that time...


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 5, 2016)

Living Fossil said:


> Let's agree to disagree.
> What i mean is: either you focus on what people have in common or on what they have not in common.
> Composers who are not famous usually are compared (and judged in comparison) to famous composers.
> The usual verdict is: He sounds a bit like him or her or him etc.
> ...



I just tell people "he had the _*tunes*_, man!" LOL!


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## Syneast (Dec 5, 2016)

Hobbyist here. I try to spend at most $300-400 a year on this stuff. If I was any less aware of my irrational sample addiction I would be so broke that it wouldn't even be funny.

As a hobby I kind of hate it. Don't get me wrong, it's awesome that I am able to make orchestral music on a computer and I love doing it, but often times I wish I had a different hobby. The only reason I can even do it is because I have been able to spend a good amount of money on it. It has to be one of the most gear driven hobbies there is, unless you can afford to regularily record with a live orchestra. Knowing that the spending will never end, I have actually tried to quit many times, but I keep getting sucked back in.

As far as dreams and goals go, I am not really trying to become a full time media composer, even though it would be cool. However, if I am going to keep throwing money at this hobby I eventually have to make some money off of it so I can justify it to myself. I have no idea how to get a gig, though, and I have no idea if I am good enough.


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## jonnybutter (Dec 5, 2016)

My view is that a lot of classical music - a lot of *music* - plays with expectation, and Western classical era music is practically made of that: more rigid forms and harmony, and playing with expectations within that context. Haydn did that more overtly (‘Surprise’ Symphony), but Mozart did it in a subtler more fundamental way, IMO. You can tell it’s Mozart precisely because he does something only he would do, and he slips it by you - you almost don’t notice. It’s not about learning forms etc. It’s about grasping all the ‘rules’ so easily and completely that they are long forgotten.


Of course there is some truth to the idea that Mozart wrote to please his audience. Don’t we all? And also that he was..er..I guess, feline at times. But he wrote some pretty great music by the time he was 35.


Sorry to ramble on OT. The original topic is really pertinent! What worries me about the situation today is the possible disappearance of music as a profession. There are certainly bad sides to professionalism - dumb stuff you learn in music school (like ‘no improvising’), and a frequent academic attitude that music is just the sum of its parts. Also downside is some of the mediocre music you sometimes have to play or write if you’re a ‘professional’.


But I think the good of professionalism outweighs the bad. Being professional means you spend more time doing it, so you can get to a higher level and produce more. I worry today that it’s going to be difficult for very many people to make a living as a musician in the near future, at least in the US. Amateurism has charms - it does mean ‘doing it for love’ after all - but without professionalism I worry that overall quality will decrease. No proof, it’s just a feeling. I would love to be wrong!


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## Living Fossil (Dec 5, 2016)

@mwarsell: Sorry, my insisting wasn't gentle at all...
If i try to formulate my thoughts in a more constructive way, it's maybe the following:
I often feel that in our time there is lot of focus on being original or having a unique style. In my opinion, the big goal should be to get a really good handicraft and to get a broad knowledge of the music that is around. Personal styles often differ in rather small details and in the amount of quality. Putting too much pressure in trying to sound different may be counterproductive and constraining.


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## mwarsell (Dec 5, 2016)

My dad, a composer and pianist I wish was more well-known, always said:"Put in 80% old and 20% new"


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## anobi (Dec 5, 2016)

Syneast said:


> Knowing that the spending will never end, I have actually tried to quit many times, but I keep getting sucked back in.



I know the feeling... 
I have recently noticed that for the past few years I've been trying to find excuses to quit but I just can't seem to get rid of this whole composing thing. I guess I just have to embrace it and finally dedicate myself to composing instead of being afraid and looking for other hobbies to dedicate myself to.

I'd love to try doing the full time thing at some point in life, but not as a film composer (short films would be interesting though) but as a video game composer. I feel like it's the most creative and versatile field for music these days, allowing a lot more freedom and imaginative scores than films that are still in this age of realistic CGI and all more or less tied to realities of the real world.

And as for the libraries, I don't really spend that much right now. I'm trying to fund my new purchases as much as possible with whatever small income I can generate from royalty free libraries, and right now I'm just happily banging away with Albion and focusing on the composing where my real problems lie. I can always go to composer cloud for details when I have a finished composition in my hands.


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## Syneast (Dec 5, 2016)

anobi said:


> I have recently noticed that for the past few years I've been trying to find excuses to quit but I just can't seem to get rid of this whole composing thing. I guess I just have to embrace it and finally dedicate myself to composing instead of being afraid and looking for other hobbies to dedicate myself to.



This is something I think about quite a lot. Samples are such an integral part of making orchestral music that I don't think it's possble to devote yourself fully to the craft without also obsessing over samples. That's why I am afraid of it.

I am trying to get into other hobbies which are more craft centric and less gear centric. Heck, I am even trying to get into different music genres so I can stop worrying about the expensive samples, but it's very difficult. Why is it so difficult?


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## Living Fossil (Dec 5, 2016)

Kony said:


> I respectfully disagree ... and compared to what, view forwards? There's a reason Mozart stands out, not because he sounded like every other composer of his time



sorry, just can't resist:



What about Paisello? Mozart even wrote variations about a theme of him



Or, another contemporary with lots of phrases that are associated with Beethoven:



BTW:
sorry, if this seems to be off topic.
But i think it's important to give a sense that composers always live in the context of other composers.
Often, what is associated with a specific personality, is rather the result of a simplified perception of history.
Or, as ABBA said: the winner takes it all.


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## anobi (Dec 5, 2016)

Syneast said:


> This is something I think about quite a lot. Samples are such an integral part of making orchestral music that I don't think it's possble to devote yourself fully to the craft without also obsessing over samples. That's why I am afraid of it.
> 
> I am trying to get into other hobbies which are more craft centric and less gear centric. Heck, I am even trying to get into different music genres so I can stop worrying about the expensive samples, but it's very difficult. Why is it so difficult?



Things could always be worse, we could be into photography for example...

In the end it seems like every hobby gets expensive, or at least you can turn everything into an expensive hobby.
Of course there is a point where one's craft is at a level that they can achieve incredible things with cheap tools, but getting there requires great investments unless you have the dedication and willpower to get there without the luxury and fun of learning with good tools. And if new sample libraries will help me to have more fun while learning the craft, it's all worth it in my opinion.
I think sample and software centric music even has the advantage of only requiring the money but not the room for all the physical gear that many other genres need.


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## Niel (Dec 5, 2016)

I did blind Mozart-test in college about 13 years ago. I've got 20/20, actually.


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## Living Fossil (Dec 5, 2016)

Niel said:


> I did blind Mozart-test in college about 13 years ago. I've got 20/20, actually.


That's actually a fantastic result. I remember a Mozart blind test at a big symposium about 25 years ago with lots of international experts etc. Nobody had them all right.


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## JohnG (Dec 5, 2016)

I had no idea Mozart was blind. Amazing what you learn on the internet.


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## StevenMcDonald (Dec 5, 2016)

I'll chip in here.

Right now, I'm in the twilight zone in between. I've been writing music for the past 6 years or so, but only seriously trying to make a career of it for about 2 years (when the library I work with now first reached out to me).

Thanks to support from my amazing wife, I was able to quit my lucrative full time job in February of this year and transition into a 20hr/week part time job so I could have more time to both write library music (cable TV stuff) and seek out video game gigs (where I want to ultimately end up). Right now I'm at about a 50/50 split between money I've made from the part time job and money I've made from music this year. Hoping to be able to drop the part time job as royalties build up next year.

I live in a very low cost of living area in the midwest United States. Think <$700/month for a 3 bedroom house mortgage, taxes and insurance. So praise the internet for allowing me to make the contacts I need to make a little money without having to live in LA. For me, "making a living" isn't a huge number. I'm a simple guy - I have no expensive hobbies or habits. Wife and I don't drink. We get most of our entertainment from each other and the internet. No desire for crazy wealth. We just want to be able to live quietly without overworking ourselves, and I really don't want to have a full time job ever again in the traditional sense. I can only sit at a desk and wait for 5:00 to strike for so long.

As far as the question about money spent on music stuff: This year I spent $140. Last year I spent maybe $400? I also bought a new computer this year as well as monitors, but that's a once every few years thing, so I don't really count that. I pride myself on spending VERY little on sample libraries. I currently roll with LASS 2.0 Lite for strings, Cinebrass Core for brass, Requiem light for choirs, and the Kontakt Factory library for woodwinds and supplementing the other orchestra parts. I also use the hell out of Omnishpere (which was a gift from my library, actually) and various other smaller or free Kontakt libraries I've accumulated over the years. I've just learned to be very good at using the few tools I have to make them sound how I want. When I see people say things like "Well, I already have SSS, Hollywood Strings, LASS, and CS2, but sure I'll go ahead and get CSS!" it kind of blows my mind. I've used only LASS for years now... I consider myself very disciplined on what I'll allow myself to spend, especially since I'm trying to make a living over here.

I'm sure one day when I'm making mad royalties I'll change my tune and spend a little more on nicer libraries 

Also, I'm 25 years old if that matters.


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## Alatar (Dec 5, 2016)

JohnG said:


> I had no idea Mozart was blind. Amazing what you learn on the internet.



I thought Beethoven was blind?


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## tack (Dec 5, 2016)

Alatar said:


> I thought Beethoven was blind?


No, Beethoven was deaf. Famously so!


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## Niel (Dec 5, 2016)

Living Fossil said:


> That's actually a fantastic result. I remember a Mozart blind test at a big symposium about 25 years ago with lots of international experts etc. Nobody had them all right.



To be honest I heard already all 20 works presented in the test, so for me it was actually not a blind test.

Yes, I was a big fan of Mozart


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## JohnG (Dec 5, 2016)

tack said:


> No, Beethoven was deaf. Famously so!



Few people have heard that he also was blind. And Mozart too.


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 5, 2016)

JohnG said:


> Few people have heard that he also was blind. And Mozart too.



And Daredevil (who is a composer on top of being a real life superhero). He's also deaf, so an obvious Beethoven tie-in there.

Learn somethin' new every day.


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## JohnG (Dec 5, 2016)

This forum is AWESOME


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## nicoroy123 (Dec 5, 2016)

I have a quite lucrative full time job as IT engineer. There is no way I will quit my full time job to jump into the risky adventure of earning my life with music only, specially that I am almost 40. Starting from scratch now would be quite a bumpy ride I suppose. But I have a ton of respect and admiration for those who make the jump.

I quite enjoy the flexibility of a full time job, with the luxury of buying music gears and samples when I want.

Of course I would dream to earn my life just with my music, but realistically, I don't think it is going to happen for me.

So I guess I define as hobbyist ?


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## Desire Inspires (Dec 5, 2016)

nicoroy123 said:


> I have a quite lucrative full time job as IT engineer. There is no way I will quit my full time job to jump into the risky adventure of earning my life with music only, specially that I am almost 40. Starting from scratch now would be quite a bumpy ride I suppose. But I have a ton of respect and admiration for those who make the jump.
> 
> I quite enjoy the flexibility of a full time job, with the luxury of buying music gears and samples when I want.
> 
> ...



Agreed.


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## Kony (Dec 6, 2016)

Living Fossil said:


> sorry, just can't resist:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm unsure what the point is ... as nice as these pieces are, they aren't nearly as memorable as Mozart. For what it's worth, we are debating something subjective - ie I think Mozart is amazing, stands out from his contemporaries etc, while you think otherwise. So I like your earlier comment, let's agree to disagree.


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## Arbee (Dec 6, 2016)

Living Fossil said:


> That's actually a fantastic result. I remember a Mozart blind test at a big symposium about 25 years ago with lots of international experts etc. Nobody had them all right.


I find that blind wine tasting is just as reliable.....


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## Living Fossil (Dec 6, 2016)

Kony said:


> I'm unsure what the point is ... as nice as these pieces are, they aren't nearly as memorable as Mozart.



I see, you know every single piece of Mozart. Cool.
Musicologists are still debating the authorship of several of his pieces, when in fact, they should simply ask Kony, who knows it all. 
p.s. i also think that he stands out from his contemporaries, but it's about the handling of details...


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 6, 2016)

Living Fossil said:


> I see, you know every single piece of Mozart. Cool.
> Musicologists are still debating the authorship of several of his pieces, when in fact, they should simply ask Kony, who knows it all.
> p.s. i also think that he stands out from his contemporaries, but it's about the handling of details...



I don't know, those examples sound one heck of a lot like Mozart's early work. And Mozart's early music sounds one heck of a lot like Joseph Haydn's work up to that time (Beethoven's earliest work sounds one heck of a lot like like a combination of the two, especially Haydn). So I guess I must be tone deaf.

Not.


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## muk (Dec 6, 2016)

This post is OFF topic, but refers to the posts above. If you're here for the topic title, carry on.

********************************************
Does anybody know this famous 'Serenade' by Haydn?



Great piece of music. It's clearly in the style of Haydn, but no autograph manuscript survives. Still, musicians and musicologists agreed that it must be Haydn. Fortunately a publication of the piece has been found, issued in Paris in 1777 under the name of..... Haydn. A clear case of how you can tell the composer just by the music itself. Except that it isn't. The piece was most probably written by a completely unknown composer of the name of Roman Hofstetter. The french publisher deleted Hofstetter's name from the parts because the name of Haydn promised to sell more copies. Luckily you can just about make out the real name beneath the deletion on the parts. That's how the piece properly got attributed to Roman Hofstetter. From the music alone you would never know.

There are many similar cases like this. In hindsight you always think: 'It's absolutely clear. No one else than xyz could have written this.' But if you only have some papers of music and no name on it? Good luck. You can tell the style it is written in, and you can tell the quality of the music. Maybe there even are some elements that were very typical for the composer xyz at the time. Despite all that, your guess can be far off. Quality and style of a composers output can vary greatly. Listen to Beethoven's Kurfürsten-Sonaten, for example, and then to the Grosse Fuge from the string quartet op. 130. If you don't know it you'd never guess that it is by the same composer.

**********************************************


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## mc_deli (Dec 6, 2016)

I think this is an interesting thread - well, the on topic stuff is.
As an aside, and comment on the off topic, and a general point... there have been a few other threads that have turned into, how can I put this... "classical pi**ing contests" when the topic has been around pro-am-hobby-career-type content. It comes across as very defensive and a little harsh on the diversity of media composers out there/in here.

Back to the plot, I am an aspiring semi-pro - well, semi suggests half - this year pro music hours/billings will be less than 20%/5% vs the "day" job. Enough to cover the studio rent. Well, not quite. I haven't been at this long enough to think of annual spend. I bought as much as I could last year, HW and SW. This year I have kept a lid on the sample spending and probably spent about 1k on SW (darn SCS/AlbV) and 1k on HW (little synths). I aspire to change horses like a few posters above but my day job, fingers crossed, is very hard to let go at the moment. Supportive spouse, but young children, relatively low expenses but not the balls to jump in.


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## Living Fossil (Dec 6, 2016)

muk said:


> There are many similar cases like this. In hindsight you always think: 'It's absolutely clear. No one else than xyz could have written this.'



Yes, and then, there is another aspect:
In those times, there were no copy shops and no scanners.
Lots of famous composers copied pieces of fellow composers they admired. Sometimes they wrote the name of the real author on their sheets, sometimes not.
That's an area where lot of work waits for musicologists.
But it gets harder: 
Sometimes, while transcribing, composers changed the music they transcribed (e.g. Bach did this with music from Vivaldi), because they obviously prefered there own continuations. In those case, we already have a split authorship.
And it gets even harder:
The personal cult surrounding artists and that aiming for a personal style was rare before Beethoven.
And so, also the thinking in terms of copyright was not really existing.
Therefore it happened - specially in operas - that sometimes composers integrated tunes of other composers.
Of course, they didn't necessarly wrote in the manuscript their sources.
Mozart is known for having done this (i remember dimmly a lecture about foreign compositions in his "Così fan tutte" at that mentioned symposium). 

And, to close it, another one:
The fact that the works of famous persons are more regarded than those of not so famous ones, isn't new at all.
The pianist and composer Liszt once wanted to raise awarness to this fact.
In a concert, he changed the order of two pieces: Instead of a piano concert of Beethoven, he played the concert of Moscheles, and later on, he played Beethoven instead of Moscheles.
The people, believing to hear the great genius Beethoven, enthusiastically applauded to Moscheles' music. 
Beethoven's music (which they thought was from Moscheles) didn't got many attention.
I have to add that forum member Kony wasn't present at that concert.


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## Kony (Dec 6, 2016)

Living Fossil said:


> I see, you know every single piece of Mozart. Cool.
> Musicologists are still debating the authorship of several of his pieces, when in fact, they should simply ask Kony, who knows it all.


Not sure where you getting the "Kony knows it all" from my posts. Aside from your points/posts turning into a personal attack, I never made any claim to knowing all of Mozart's works so not sure where, how or why you're making that inference. 

You posted several tracks by his contemporaries as if to say they were as good as Mozart, I disagreed. I'd already made the point that this was all subjective. How does that lead to your conclusion that I know all of Mozart's works? Or that I know it all? Or know as much as yourself with your ability to look forward from the 1700s...? 

If you'd like to respond, feel free to PM me as this is OT and hijacking this thread when I'd already politely and diplomatically acknowledged your earlier comment that we agree to disagree. If you do decide to respond here, please re-read my last sentence for my response. Thanks.


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 6, 2016)

Kony said:


> Not sure where you getting the "Kony knows it all" from my posts. Aside from your points/posts turning into a personal attack, I never made any claim to knowing all of Mozart's works so not sure where, how or why you're making that inference.
> 
> You posted several tracks by his contemporaries as if to say they were as good as Mozart, I disagreed. I'd already made the point that this was all subjective. How does that lead to your conclusion that I know all of Mozart's works? Or that I know it all? Or know as much as yourself with your ability to look forward from the 1700s...?
> 
> If you'd like to respond, feel free to PM me as this is OT and hijacking this thread when I'd already politely and diplomatically acknowledged your earlier comment that we agree to disagree. If you do decide to respond here, please re-read my last sentence for my response. Thanks.



I must have missed where LF implied those videos were of the same high quality as Mozart. I do agree that it's pretty darn hard to count on hindsight as being 20/20, same with fore. If that's what you meant.


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## Living Fossil (Dec 6, 2016)

@Kony: wrote you a pm. 
The sentence "not as memorable as Mozart" rang my bells.


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## Patrick (Dec 6, 2016)

I had a blast reading this thread, thank you for coming up with it Parsifal666!
I would like to echo what mc_deli said though, the off-topic has really gone on for quite some time now and it certainly - from my point of view - hurt the drive that the original topic had in the beginning with people just chiming in and sharing their story and approach to making music and making a living.
Maybe the people interested in a Mozart discussion could create a new topic?


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## chillbot (Dec 6, 2016)

Jellycrackers said:


> I'll chip in here.


I wondered what happened to you JC!



Jellycrackers said:


> I don't drink.


Ooops you lost me there.


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## StevenMcDonald (Dec 6, 2016)

chillbot said:


> I wondered what happened to you JC!
> 
> 
> Ooops you lost me there.



-_-

Beginning of the year when I left the full time job, I kind of avoided this place a bit because I would often find myself jealous or insecure when reading about others' success or the amount of insane gear they could afford to buy... It was easier for me to just put my head down and work and not worry about the way other people do things. But now that I'm a little more confident in the way I do things and I've been improving as a composer, I'm around much more! I also do poke my head into the chat room every once in a while, but usually I'm greeted by the sound of crickets and leave after a while. lol


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## chillbot (Dec 6, 2016)

Jellycrackers said:


> usually I'm greeted by the sound of crickets and leave after a while.


Too many crickets. Come by here instead.
https://discord.gg/a4x7msH


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## chillbot (Dec 6, 2016)

So... anyone seen "The Arrival" yet? Whad'ya think of the score?


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## bryla (Dec 10, 2016)

chillbot said:


> So... anyone seen "The Arrival" yet? Whad'ya think of the score?


I saw it and liked the score :D quite biased opinion though


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## givemenoughrope (Dec 10, 2016)

I barely noticed the score except for the beginning and ending faux-Malick-y bits with what I think was Max Richter. I remember some drones so I guess it worked. I really liked the concept of circular, non-linear language and the nod to Sapir-Whorf. Very cool and it makes me want to see it again. But if this is really a story about the major nations of the world agreeing on how to deal with climate change then it might be a bit too hopeful to think China will be our savior (and as much as film wants to come off as an 'indie' there's your pandering to the Chinese market right there). I saw this way pre-election at a film fest and now I wonder how much if at all this would have been re-edited to reflect the aftermath. Maybe it should have just stayed the same but released two weeks after. Either way, it seems to be getting praise for simply not being an Independence Day which is odd. // DV's films have never really worked for me for a few reasons here and there but mostly bc he's a foreign director trying to make American films that don't really feel believable as such. (Constantly revealing this even just in dialog and small monents.) I'd prefer him to just make films and leave that task to Eastwood or even Spielberg.


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## tack (Dec 10, 2016)

Since we're on the subject, Song Exploder did an episode about one of Arrival's cues:

http://songexploder.net/arrival


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## bryla (Dec 10, 2016)

http://vi-control.net/community/threads/arrival-by-jóhannsson-on-song-exploder.57345/


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## jononotbono (Jan 21, 2017)

agarner32 said:


> My name is Aaron Garner and I'm addicted to buying sample libraries.



Really?


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## composerboy (Jan 21, 2017)

SamplesSlave said:


> Great thread! I'll bite!
> 
> 38 and married. Was a dual music and computer science major. In my 20s music really was my main passion, but I've always been a bit conservative financially, so I spent the majority of my 20s and early 30s building a nest egg (thanks to tech) and making sure I'd have to really screw things up in order for me not to be able to provide for my family.
> 
> ...



How to you find 8Dio Lacrimosa? I was thinking about getting it?


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## SamplesSlave (Jan 22, 2017)

composerboy said:


> How to you find 8Dio Lacrimosa? I was thinking about getting it?



It's definitely "one note", but the note it does is awesome! It's not as flexible as QLSC's word builder, but they give you enough vowels that it sounds pretty varied regardless. 

For creating that "epic wordless choir" feel, I'm overall pretty happy with it.


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## Desire Inspires (Sep 5, 2017)

Has anyone made any strides into making a living yet?


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## GtrString (Sep 6, 2017)

In music, I believe everyone is an amateur. Music is about the only business where you spend two million to make one million.

Im in my 40ies now, and got started as a teenager in the 80ies wantibg to be a studio musician. Then education and the career hunt took over, but I got back into music when I had some personal losses. Music was the only way I knew how to deal with it, and was after the katharsis.

Back in the 80ies, it really wasnt easy to get into recording. For the beginner without network, there were no books, no teachers, no (affordable) equipment, no nothing. But after the homerecording boom in the 2000s, everything became available. Books, videos, affordable prosumer gear ect, everyone could suddenly DIY.

So, I started pursuing knowledge and exploring my talent in ways that was not possible for me 30 years ago. That is where I still am. Cant stop human development.

Will I become a full time pro? I cant say. I will pursue music, because despite academic careers (which are also compromized in these times), music is what Ive been doing for the longest time. I may combine teaching and composing in some way, and see where it goes.

I think what has happened is that now the cat is out of the box. You dont need to go to art school to be great, you dont need to know rich people to get access to gear, we dont believe in godgiven talent anymore as you can compensate with hard work and still find a spot. Music is a language, and everyone speaks it their own f***ing way! So, schooled musicians, with lifelong ambition must feel somewhat uneasy, when the compositions of the untrained, unschooled and less talented is preferred from time to time. Both for the elitist stories they bought into, and the paradigm shift of the new times.

In a way this has also killed commercial music, as everyone and your grandmother can do it. It means that "art" is back to be a learnable craft, instead of the symbollically camuflaged political opinion bull**it that used to be. So, more can be demanded from artists, for less.

Is that good? Hell yeah and hell no, as with everything else in life. I do like how it feels, though. More rockn roll than classical elegance, for sure.


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## novaburst (Sep 6, 2017)

GtrString said:


> more can be demanded from artists, for less.



There are many out there that any old thing will do and have a take the cash or leave it and as long as the composition sounds like A or B it's fine with them.

There are also many out there that are looking for certain types of compositions and they way it was put together, these are the people that want the best, and want to share there joy with everyone.



GtrString said:


> dont believe in godgiven talent anymore as you can compensate with hard work and still find a spot.



This is key work hard at it, at the very least it will bring you satisfaction, and if and when some one signs you you know they are hearing you best effort,

I am sure there will be no satisfaction if we are giving half hearted compersitions and your making tons of cash from it to me that's just existing without meaning perhaps there will be many opinion about that statement I made.

I just think weather you are a hobbyist or a professional, it's meaningless unless you are enjoying it and getting great satisfaction from it and in some ways excelling.


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## Iskra (Sep 6, 2017)

Great thread!

In my case, I consider myself a hobbyst. I have my day job (which I also enjoy very much) to cover the family needs, and I devote most of my free time to music. Started as a classically trained pianist, then discovered jazz, and through the years I've played in bands, in jazz settings, did a little of session playing, made arrangements, and many other things related to music and piano playing. All those musical adventures also provided a nice income supplement that I invested in music gear, software or hardware (athough it never fully covered the expenses I didn't cared that much - I just tried to be reasonable on that).

I said music is a hobby, but it is really a passion since 25 years ago or so, and as such, there's no passion light on the pocket (no matter if it is golf, or ski, or music, or photography). I do orchestral and jazz music now for my own entertainment and fulfillment, and just because it make me feel good, my life view is always keep learning new things, and if/when small projects come into my way, I do those happily, but never for free. Music makes me happy, free, and 'fresh'.

I started using the computer to make music since the time of the trackers (20 years ago more or less? wow, time flies), and a few years later I discovered Reason, and that led me later to Cubase, libraries, studio gear and all the stuff we all love (and hate sometimes late at night when something suddenly crashes out of the blue). 

I'm not too worried about the shiny new libraries and try to keep simple, although I love as much as the next guy the newest stuff (everything sound fantastic if you just look back 10-15 years), and I'm trying to become a better composer, a better orchestrator, and just enjoy. I have no ambition to get into the music business (I'm 40 now), just record my music and make it available, and keep learning until the day I die.  Plus, I don't really like the kind of music is now in vogue for film/trailers/games, so that's not the kind of music I do.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Sep 6, 2017)

Iskra said:


> Plus, I don't really like the kind of music is now in vogue for film/trailers/games, so that's not the kind of music I do.



That's the beauty of it. Get your own style out there and create your own identity. I personally feel this is needed right now, as the bigger Hollywood films are so saturated with Zimmer-like scores.


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