# Heroic Minor Melody



## Ned Bouhalassa (Sep 6, 2008)

What makes a melody sound 'heroic'? Upward leaps from the root at the start, like a Maj 6th or min 7th sure sound like good contenders. As does starting from the dominant (5th) up to the root, and moving up to the 3rd and 5th (8ve from first 5th).

But what if it's in the context of a minor key? I'm thinking 'heroic' is typically hopeful, therefore, and again this is very general, Major. Is it possible to have a 'hero' in a minor setting? Does choosing a french horn to play it help or does timbre not have to come into play?


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## bryla (Sep 6, 2008)

Funny you should ask as I'm watching Raiders  But I have no clue


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## Christian Marcussen (Sep 6, 2008)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Sep 06 said:


> What makes a melody sound 'heroic'? Upward leaps from the root at the start, like a Maj 6th or min 7th sure sound like good contenders. As does starting from the dominant (5th) up to the root, and moving up to the 3rd and 5th (8ve from first 5th).
> 
> But what if it's in the context of a minor key? I'm thinking 'heroic' is typically hopeful, therefore, and again this is very general, Major. Is it possible to have a 'hero' in a minor setting? Does choosing a french horn to play it help or does timbre not have to come into play?



you can definately do a hero theme in minor. But it often geta more serious, dramatic or even noble slant. But it's hard to make a "happy go lucky" hero theme like Indiana Jones in minor. But think Elfman or Zimmers Batman themes... Heroic, noble, but also serious and dramatic. 

But what about hopeful? That would to a larger degree depend on what is happening on the screen. Play indiana Jones and itøs hopeful no matter what. In minor I think the hope comes from the context.


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## madbulk (Sep 6, 2008)

Heroes are tragic figures much of the time maybe MOST of the time. I got no problem with hero theme being minor.
Heroes are conflicted too. So different timbres, multiple timbres. All useful, why not.


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## wonshu (Sep 6, 2008)

Interesting.

I think we as musicians hear music on many more levels than the "normal" listener (although I believe that their reality and perception is what we should go by most of the time!).

I can hear music in a minor key and it can be the most happy and fulfilling thing to me but when I play it to my girlfriend she will always say it's got a sad quality.

Let's collect some minor hero themes. Of course the already mentioned Batman theme by Elfman is very much up there, what else?

Best
Hans


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## Christian Marcussen (Sep 7, 2008)

First Blood - Jerry Goldsmith... Tragic hero stuff. 

Black Hawk Down - Hanz Zimmer


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## Stephen Rees (Sep 7, 2008)

Definitely you can have a minor key heroic setting. Here's a few terrific heroic minor themes that are worth hearing (not all tragic heroes either)..........

The 13th Warrior - Jerry Goldsmith
Cutthroat Island - John Debney
The Wind and the Lion - Goldsmith
The Time Machine - Klaus Badelt
Crimson Tide - Hans Zimmer
Batman - Danny Elfman
The Two Towers - theme for the Riders of Rohan

There are lots of different timbres used in the above, so it needn't necessarily be french horns (although they would be a great choice).


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Sep 7, 2008)

Well here's what I came up with so far. I'm thinking that the 4th jumps gives it that 'heroic' feeling, as does the use of solo french horn. FWIW, it's a ship captain theme. This is such an obvious melody, I think, that it must have been used before... I'll leave the passing tones and other fill-ins to later variations.


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## madbulk (Sep 7, 2008)

Sounds major in my head because I'm hearing Eb major as the begnning and anything else related to that.
Mind me saying I'd reconsider that second Eb? I'd like it better if it only went to the high note at the opening statement, the most heroic one.


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## mducharme (Sep 7, 2008)

I really like the first 4 measures but I agree going to the Eb again sounds anticlimactic.. but I think you can go higher.. what if you keep the rhythmic pattern like in measure one in bar 5 but have it go Bb - G - Bb - G-an-octave-higher, that way you could have a very dramatic leap in the middle, Bb way up to G

I'd also suggest Starship Troopers as a great minor key heroic melody


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Sep 7, 2008)

madbulk @ 7/9/2008 said:


> Sounds major in my head because I'm hearing Eb major as the begnning and anything else related to that.
> Mind me saying I'd reconsider that second Eb? I'd like it better if it only went to the high note at the opening statement, the most heroic one.



It's in G minor. Here's a piano version:


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Sep 7, 2008)

mducharme @ 7/9/2008 said:


> I really like the first 4 measures but I agree going to the Eb again sounds anticlimactic.. but I think you can go higher.. what if you keep the rhythmic pattern like in measure one in bar 5 but have it go Bb - G - Bb - G-an-octave-higher, that way you could have a very dramatic leap in the middle, Bb way up to G



Very cool idea! It does work well. 8)


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## madbulk (Sep 7, 2008)

mducharme @ Sun Sep 07 said:


> I really like the first 4 measures but I agree going to the Eb again sounds anticlimactic.. but I think you can go higher.. what if you keep the rhythmic pattern like in measure one in bar 5 but have it go Bb - G - Bb - G-an-octave-higher, that way you could have a very dramatic leap in the middle, Bb way up to G
> 
> I'd also suggest Starship Troopers as a great minor key heroic melody



heh. I was actually rethinking the specificity as I walked away from the computer... yeah, I still don't like repeating the Eb, but you can go up and get additional heroism .


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## mducharme (Sep 7, 2008)

One other thing you could do that I thought of.. the very very last note of the melody could be changed from D to Eb and harmonize it as a dominant 9th, that gives it that extra drive towards the D to start the second repetition of the melody (assuming you're going to have it repeat)


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Sep 7, 2008)

That does add some tension, although I still feel like I want to resolve it to D at the very end of the last bar. These kinds of embellishments are the kind that I will explore in making variations.


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## gsilbers (Oct 28, 2008)

i took a class with charles bernstein about this sort of stuff. very cool. 

but for heroic it will depend on the type of hero. if the hero is strong ala superman like then youd use melody that it stays around tonic. more down to earth stronger feel. 

if the hero is troubled, then less on tonic, maybe minor . something that gives the feling of its alsmost there and its good. 

love and scary are ina away the same, in love you feel restless, ike the floor is not under you all the time. same as suspense/scare.. in love you are kinda scare right?
well that would translate to a melody that is far away from tonic. tonic is the earth you stand in . the strong feel. 

well, its way more stuff but thats a jisp of it.


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## david robinson (Oct 29, 2008)

hi ned,
based on what i'm seeing you are "filling in the blanks" a bit too much in the eight note comp figure.
have you tried setting your melody against G major, in place of the minor?
this bi-modal approach might lead too some interesting frissons.
DR9.


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## Hal (Oct 29, 2008)

first when u asked i coudnt think of anything but minor
orcourse minor is applicable in Heroic stuff.
More dramatic,more a la mode too may be.

i would see major heroic themes generaly in kids and family movies where it should be light and some time even comic

ET flying theme is Major 
Indiana Jones is major 
generaly sports movie,involving kids are major too

However anything else i think of is minor
Anything Hans
even if we were sitting and u were to ask me to play somthing Heroic am sure anything that would ve came would ve been in Minor


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 29, 2008)

David and others,

FWIW, I'm way past this particular problem/challenge (old post). I've got to deal with gargoyles now. >8o


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## bluejay (Oct 29, 2008)

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Fellowship theme from Lord of the Rings.

A minor theme but harmonised in major chords. Seems like a good compromise between the two. It has the tough minor feel without sounding too dark or sentimental.


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## Evan Arnett (Dec 10, 2008)

Instead of plain minor, how about trying the Dorian mode? The minor i chord keeps things serious, while the raised sixth adds a brightness and drive to the sound that I think translates well into a "heroic" feeling in certain contexts.

Although this is an obvious example, the opening from Hans Zimmer's "The Battle" from the Gladiator score begins with a heroic sounding but minor melody in the horn and strings.


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