# Mixing with Headphones - HELP



## constaneum (Feb 6, 2022)

I'm trying out mixing with my headphones as i was told headphones are best for mixing in non-treated rooms. I own a Audio-Technica ATH-M50x headphone and i've downloaded even things like sonarworks and morphit to test out. HOWEVER, they all came to the outcome of "unable to hear your boomy bass much". Mix here and there, EQ here and there and sounds fine. But when rendering the audio and play on my laptop using a normal headset, i ended up with "oh geez....bass too muddy". Felt like my ears are being deceived.

My questions are
1. Why can't i hear it from my headphone when mixing ?
2. How do you guys handle the bass when mixing using headphone?
3. There are even room emulation plugins like dearVR mix, Sienna & etc. Are those better than Sonarworks / Morphit ?https://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChcSEwjQ4fWqtez1AhWNk2YCHZfTDO8YABAGGgJzbQ&ohost=www.google.com&cid=CAESVuD2j8EAWiXvv5MDFgn-OgQSC8n5dgDFWyeCrcNnBNtx1MibjRWUb-jmL-J5ck0iyvxW3Da02w6-_z1rUliNcwrYArs8H13LdQWMGpMu_lBn7ws7VLMp&sig=AOD64_0y8cSZkpKlZW_eAidwCcYCZuIrDw&q&adurl&ved=2ahUKEwiy7Ouqtez1AhXjyzgGHVnhCW0Q0Qx6BAgDEAE (Audio-Technica ATH-M50x)


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## Jeremy Gillam (Feb 6, 2022)

I'm not sure if I fully understand your question, but my mixes translate fine on any system mixing on Sony MDR 7506s or Sennheiser HD280s without any correction software. Are you leaving your correction software turned on when you export? Maybe it's just a matter of more practice. Mix on headphones, check on monitors, check in car, repeat.


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## fakemaxwell (Feb 6, 2022)

What do you mean by "normal headset"?

Can you hear the muddy bass when you go back to the ATH?

I don't think that Sonarworks et al are necessary, but other people disagree.


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## constaneum (Feb 6, 2022)

I bypass Sonarworks during audio rendering. .

Normal headset referring to headsets such as Apple headset, Samsung headsets and etc.

I dont hear the muddy bass when on ATH on my DAW. BUT hearing on my laptop was awful experience. everything sound so wet and muddy at lower end.


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## darcvision (Feb 6, 2022)

mixing with headphone will makes your ears tired easily, so take a break every 20 minutes. you cannot mix while your ears are tired

check mixing in mono to make sure every elements is showing properly, but you don't need to make it sounds good, because people listen to stereo anyway.

also check reference, reference and reference


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## Instrugramm (Feb 6, 2022)

You need headphones with a narrow soundstage and very little thd (total harmonic distortion), a must for applying nicely working eq (via sonarworks for example). HD600s are my recommendation (with some eq for sub bass and a double check of the final mix without) and for closed backs Ether CXs are still my go-to.

Get any room emulation, they'll all get the job done. It's very much possible to mix on headphones, I'm currently forced to do the same and my mixes translate "ok"ish, not a huge difference to my, now gone, hugely expensive studio setup tbh.


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## Zedcars (Feb 6, 2022)

darcvision said:


> but you don't need to make it sounds good, because people listen to stereo anyway.


OT from the OP question but I don’t agree with that. Plenty of people listen in mono on their phones. I listen in mono every day due to my work policy of only allowing us to listen to music with one ear.

I would say mono compatibility is still important.


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## constaneum (Feb 6, 2022)

i do agree....mixing on headsets in the long run tires the ear. i prefer studio monitors but ya, my room isn't treated so it's a bit hard to mix on monitor. room emulation software includes frequency response correction ? ie: dearVR Mix? I've noticed they have the headsets options to select. I wonder whether that comes with frequency response correction for the chosen headset models


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## gyprock (Feb 6, 2022)

I had some of these headphones and sold them in preference for open back design (Beyerdynamic DT 880 Pro). Here is something I copied from the web:

*Closed-back* headphones like the ATH-M50x prevent sound from escaping and leaking into your microphone. The downside of this design is that it traps pressure inside the headphone, which creates false low frequencies. Open-back headphones, on the other hand, don't suffer from this issue.


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## constaneum (Feb 6, 2022)

false low frequencies.....by right, room emulation or frequency response correction softwares should be able to correct this right ?


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## Orchestrata (Feb 6, 2022)

darcvision said:


> also check reference, reference and reference


This x100. Something like Sonarworks will largely flatten out your frequency response, therefore you won't experience the bass the way you would on a normal system (where it tends to be hyped). So you'll be fighting against that and overcompensating unless you keep checking against great mixes in that same environment. Good luck!!


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## constaneum (Feb 7, 2022)

seems like luck is all i need.


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## darcvision (Feb 7, 2022)

Zedcars said:


> OT from the OP question but I don’t agree with that. Plenty of people listen in mono on their phones. I listen in mono every day due to my work policy of only allowing us to listen to music with one ear.
> 
> I would say mono compatibility is still important.


Yeah you're right. i mean just make it sounds ok is enough. Also depend on context, in my opinion mixing orchestra music very good in mono is hard. I mean, i'm talking about big orchestra music, which is more than 60 player, and if you press mono button, bum.... it sounded bad, choked and clashed with each other. that's why i said before, as long as every elements are showing, clear and not clashing with each other, it would be enough.


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## lux (Feb 7, 2022)

Your common headset isn't able to manage the bass range as good and clean as your studio headphones. I personally haven't found any headphones correction able to resolve it (well, I can't use any correction software, but that's me).

I basically have an headphones switch with 3 to 4 headphones attached, from cheap Sony mdr, to more detailed and studio ones. I've choosen them in order to be complimentar eachother (one is bassy, the other is more detailed in the high range, another is muddier...and so on). I also added to this a decent collection of 15$ cheap BT speakers, different brands and shapes. Usually the cheapest they are the best to spoil unwanted frequencies hogs.


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## AVaudio (Feb 7, 2022)

The way I deal with translation to laptops and similar equipment, is to set a filter in the master cutting all the low and high frecs that are not available on these devices, that I turn on and off. Something like a HP at 400 and a LP at 10000. Then of course you need to try it on a real laptop as well.

Also, as they said before, always use a reference and mix at a regular fixed volume and at a fixed low volume; so mix at two levels. You can find many unpleasant surprises -with layering and other synthestration techniques- when the volume goes down and things start to stick out. Listen also to mono at both volumes to detect phase problems. One piece of advice though, lower your reference track 3 or 6 dbs, or the high volume of a professionally mastered track will fool you into making wrong decissions. You can apply mastering at the end.

Once the framework is in place, remember that eq is not always the solution. For very dry instruments, a room reverb will actually sometimes work better that eq, and of course, distributting elements at their own space in the panning clears things a lot as well. Finally, instruments that don't need low end should be high passed to avoid room tone build up. In general, cutting a few db between 250-400 hz clears a lot of the "muddynes"... for example, if you cut it in low percussions or brass (very ressilient to eq dips in general) then the string "scratchiness" comes through much better. It's great to solo eq bands on your sections and see where the different properties are.


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## StefanoM (Feb 7, 2022)

The best sounding setup is:

SIENNA + Planar Headphones + Dedicated Ampli

I have the *Audeze LCD-X, *which is one of the BEST Systems, but there are also some more "cheap" solutions:

Like the
Monoprice Monolith M1060​or
Avantone Pro Planar​
So the Planar Headphones are better than the classic "Dynamic" headphones:
More Dynamic, More Headroom, More ( nice and not boomy) low-frequency response, fantastic sound stage, and in general the Planar Headphones have good ( and credible) low-frequency response also with the low volume level.

The Planar Headphones +Sienna + Ampli, are the closest listening workflow to Speaker monitoring.

If you want to work with the Headphones, you must be ready to take a direction without compromise.


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## MartinH. (Feb 7, 2022)

constaneum said:


> I'm trying out mixing with my headphones as i was told headphones are best for mixing in non-treated rooms. I own a Audio-Technica ATH-M50x headphone and i've downloaded even things like sonarworks and morphit to test out. HOWEVER, they all came to the outcome of "unable to hear your boomy bass much". Mix here and there, EQ here and there and sounds fine. But when rendering the audio and play on my laptop using a normal headset, i ended up with "oh geez....bass too muddy". Felt like my ears are being deceived.
> 
> My questions are
> 1. Why can't i hear it from my headphone when mixing ?
> ...


First of all I'd start by checking how low both of your headphones go, the m50x and the normal ones. Use a sinewave generator plugin where you can set the frequency and sweep it down to compare what you can still hear equally well on both headphones and see which one goes lower. My DT770 pro not going low enough was one of the reasons I don't mix on them. My cheap 30$ gaming headset goes way lower, since consumer grade headphones usually overemphasize bass.
I usually double check bass on the subwoofer of my 2.1 speakers (consumer grade but decent ones at least). You could try switching back and forth between different headphones. I'm still looking for a good switching solution to do this myself. There are headphone switches on amazon, but I haven't decided on one yet.


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## Hywel (Feb 7, 2022)

StefanoM said:


> The best sounding setup is:
> 
> SIENNA + Planar Headphones + Dedicated Ampli
> 
> ...


Hi @StefanoM 
Do you have a favourite dedicated headphone amplifier as well?
What do you recommend?
Do different ones make a difference?
I'm considering going down this rabbit hole...


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## StefanoM (Feb 7, 2022)

Hywel said:


> Hi @StefanoM
> Do you have a favourite dedicated headphone amplifier as well?
> What do you recommend?
> Do different ones make a difference?
> I'm considering going down this rabbit hole...


This depends a lot on your budget possibility. For now, I feel good with a "cheap" Fiio K5 Pro. That pushes my LCD-X better than my ApolloX6, maybe in the future I Will upgrade it. But For now, it's cool.


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## Instrugramm (Feb 7, 2022)

The Audeze LCD-Xs are good but expensive, they need some tweaking in order to get a flat sound (a huge chunk of frequencies between 3 an 5 khz is basically non-existant) and if you end up tweaking the eq anyway you can get far cheaper open-back headphones as long as their thd is low. Prices in general are not always indicative of the audio quality in the headphone industry (carbon fibre is expensive).

A detailed review including measurements of LCD-Xs ->https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-x-over-ear-open-back-headphone-review.16777/

Note that there are huge differences between good sounding headphones and good headphones for mixing, Ether CXs or HD600s don't really let you enjoy music (narrow soundstage + point out any imperfections) whereas something like Verume One Mk2, Argon T60RPs or some cheaper Focals are awesome entry points for the beginning audiophile...

As for amplification and audio-chipset I recommend something along the lines of a Topping D90 Dac + A90 Amp, they're both very neutral, if budget is a problem a Drop THX789 (or any good class D amp) with a mid-tier Dac will do.


Ps. I'm actually selling my second pair of Ether CXs since I'm no longer switching between countries, if anybody is interested let me know.


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## Scripter (Feb 7, 2022)

constaneum said:


> I'm trying out mixing with my headphones as i was told headphones are best for mixing in non-treated rooms. I own a Audio-Technica ATH-M50x headphone and i've downloaded even things like sonarworks and morphit to test out. HOWEVER, they all came to the outcome of "unable to hear your boomy bass much". Mix here and there, EQ here and there and sounds fine. But when rendering the audio and play on my laptop using a normal headset, i ended up with "oh geez....bass too muddy". Felt like my ears are being deceived.
> 
> My questions are
> 1. Why can't i hear it from my headphone when mixing ?
> ...


Just a Hobbyist here but one thing I honestly have to say that there is probably no buyable fix for your problem (of course you can buy goddamn highly expensive gear but I don't think that's what you going for, neither is it what I recommend.)
If I learned one thing in 3 years of composing and mixing: you really have to do it over and over and practise. I started with 30$ Headphones and my Mixes sounded horrible for almost 2 years and in my case everything was muddy, but especially the bass and the mids. So but after 2 years I bought a pair of speakers as my mixes where getting better and I have to say having a pair of speakers is really nice but as I recognized I'm now able to do the mixing on my 30$ Headphone nearly as good as with my hundreds of dollar worth speakers... Really I've done my last project only with these headphones and it sounds absolutely amazing overall systems.

I know it's really frustrating if it sounds bad, but it's really practise and discovering what works composing wise. Now when I compose I know which Libraries to layer to get the Bass sound from which I know it works. Than just a little EQ and compression (it also sounds good before I apply them) and there we go.

I actually also don't hear the bass on my Headphones that good but I know when it is right, hard to describe but when the whole mix has that "special" sound than I know the bass has to be clean cause the overall track sounds just "mighty" you know. So don't be frustratet it's really just learning. And you can learn it. I learned it too even if I tought 2 years without real huge improvement that it's not possible for me.

Also if you really want to spend money: The Izotope Tonal Balance Bundle is sometimes on sale for 135$ Bucks and it's really worth it (also the assistant is really nifty - it not perfect but good as a starting point in some situations). But yes just make some cool tracks, mix them and than try to get Feedback.  Many nice people here who gladly will give you feedback (too sad that I wasn't knowing this forum back than when I started haha, best peeps here.)

Ok so here I end it got longer than I expected....

EDIT: There is also a cheap way to correct headphones without the need to use Sonarworks and co. - Supid but it works for ZERO bucks


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## bFooz (Feb 7, 2022)

In my opinion, static room simulations do not work. Because if you are in a real room and you move your head even just slightly, the room does not move with your head and you are able to kind of filter that room out. When using static room simulation, the room moves with your head. Static room simulations work only in moments when you keep your head completely still.

The solution would be a headtracker and I know only two manufacturers offering this -

https://www.waves.com/hardware/nx-head-tracker
https://www.redscapeaudio.com/ - this one is not a plugin (yet - as I was told).

Another solution, the one I use and like, is to use just a crossfeed. One plugin for this is https://goodhertz.com/canopener-studio/ . A poor man's alternative to CanOpener is to take a midside eq, take a 6dB hipass filter and filter out the side only up to 400Hz.


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## Pier (Feb 7, 2022)

StefanoM said:


> This depends a lot on your budget possibility. For now, I feel good with a "cheap" Fiio K5 Pro. That pushes my LCD-X better than my ApolloX6, maybe in the future I Will upgrade it. But For now, it's cool.


Do you get ASIO with the Fiio DACs?


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## Pier (Feb 7, 2022)

BTW I agree with @StefanoM planar headphones are amazing.

I got the Fostex T50RP MK3 and they sound great (after EQing). Best low end I've ever heard in some headphones, also some of the best imaging and spacing I've ever heard too. These were my first planar headphones, I imagine the LCD-X are on another league though.

Shame Sienna doesn't support those though.


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## StefanoM (Feb 7, 2022)

Instrugramm said:


> The Audeze LCD-Xs are good but expensive, they need some tweaking in order to get a flat sound (a huge chunk of frequencies between 3 an 5 khz is basically non-existant) and if you end up tweaking the eq anyway you can get far cheaper open-back headphones as long as their thd is low. Prices in general are not always indicative of the audio quality in the headphone industry (carbon fibre is expensive).
> 
> A detailed review including measurements of LCD-Xs ->https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-x-over-ear-open-back-headphone-review.16777/
> 
> ...


A perfect Flat Headphone does not exist; for this reason, Sienna is usefull, to me is the best calibration system, and the frequency response is not the only problem of the headphones mixing, you know.

But the Planar Headphones make all the difference possible.

I've HD600, DT ( all the series ), MTX50, Grado, OLLO, etc

LCD-X + calibration ( SIENNA) is the best experience, similar to a speaker in my life.

LCD-X is one of the first choices of a lot of professional mastering and mixing men in the world; I don't need a detailed review or measurements; I use my ears...and my ears say that are the best headphones experience that I've used in my professional life.

The mix or mastering I do with this system translates with my Focal Solo Be6 at 99.9% perfect, just minimal adjustments.

Yes, you say right, are expensive...but the quality has a cost.

BTW there are other great and a little bit cheaper Planar Headphones.


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## ryans (Feb 7, 2022)

LCD-X are good but mine mostly just sit here collecting dust I should probably sell them.

For me HD-600 for mixing plus HD-800s to check stereo placement, noise, artifacts etc. I basically don't need monitors anymore unless there is a lot of sub-bass I need to check. 

For me the key is constant reference and mixing quiet like really quiet. 

I'm of the opinion you can mix on pretty much anything as long as you have familiarity and consistent reference.

That said, I think the ATH-M50x are terrible. Bizarre bloated lows, weird ass mids, harsh and painful highs. They're one of the few (popular?) headphones I would label borderline unusable. But that's just me.


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## fretwalker (Feb 7, 2022)

Getting the bass right has been the most difficult part of mixing for me. Most mix engineers don't recommend mixing on headphones because it won't sound the same on speakers in a room. 

I started getting better mix results when I compared my mix with reference tracks and listening to the mix on as many different systems as possible. 

I also got a nice small inexpensive pair (KRKs) of nearfield monitors set as flat as possible. Headphones can get me most of the way there, especially with some detailed elements, but the monitors helped tremendously in getting a consistent mix.


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## constaneum (Feb 7, 2022)

fretwalker said:


> Getting the bass right has been the most difficult part of mixing for me. Most mix engineers don't recommend mixing on headphones because it won't sound the same on speakers in a room.
> 
> I started getting better mix results when I compared my mix with reference tracks and listening to the mix on as many different systems as possible.
> 
> I also got a nice small inexpensive pair (KRKs) of nearfield monitors set as flat as possible. Headphones can get me most of the way there, especially with some detailed elements, but the monitors helped tremendously in getting a consistent mix.


Even when comparing with reference track, you still can't hear much from headphones coz the bass isn't that prominent. I do agree that ATH-M50x isn't that great. I found too much highs and mids. I bought it coz of great review. hmm...

which KRK monitor is that ?


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## glyster (Feb 7, 2022)

Waves NX series (CLA NX, etc.) is very useful for headphone mixing. I bought them and was impressed how much difference they make to the sounds stage. I have HD 650 headphones.


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## glyster (Feb 7, 2022)

bFooz said:


> In my opinion, static room simulations do not work. Because if you are in a real room and you move your head even just slightly, the room does not move with your head and you are able to kind of filter that room out. When using static room simulation, the room moves with your head. Static room simulations work only in moments when you keep your head completely still.
> 
> The solution would be a headtracker and I know only two manufacturers offering this -
> 
> ...


You can also use a webcam. The NX software worked pretty with my logitech web cam.


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## fretwalker (Feb 8, 2022)

constaneum said:


> Even when comparing with reference track, you still can't hear much from headphones coz the bass isn't that prominent. I do agree that ATH-M50x isn't that great. I found too much highs and mids. I bought it coz of great review. hmm...
> 
> which KRK monitor is that ?


KRK Classic 5s

I agree, comparing to a ref track helps but you still have to test on several systems


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## SupremeFist (Feb 8, 2022)

Slate VSX, or decent headphones you already have + dsoniq Realphones.


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## Zanshin (Feb 8, 2022)

Damn this thread has got me thinking about buying LCD-X again. Well, and I am moving and my studio space won't be ready in the new house for quite a while. I mostly work with a pair of Focal Shapes 50s, and then Sonarworks sound id & canopener w/ HD650s less often, mostly late at night. But headphones might become the normal for a while.

Is Sienna really all that? I have the base that was free for a while but I never really tried it. Is it CPU intensive? I just assumed it would be based on all other Acustica products.


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## SupremeFist (Feb 8, 2022)

Zanshin said:


> Is Sienna really all that?


I demoed it and found it much inferior to Realphones when used with HD650 and k701, but YMMV.


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## Zanshin (Feb 8, 2022)

SupremeFist said:


> I demoed it and found it much inferior to Realphones when used with HD650 and k701, but YMMV.


I'll have to check it out.


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## SupremeFist (Feb 8, 2022)

Zanshin said:


> I'll have to check it out.


They have a demo! I thought Sienna was worse because it made an unfinished mix sound too good/pleasant already (they are adding distortion and not correcting the highs by design). Realphones I think is more honest/unforgiving.


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## Monkberry (Feb 8, 2022)

Just ordered a pair of LCD-X phones and started looking at Realphones. I'm currently using HD-600s with Sound ID and sometimes Canopener. I was looking into Sienna when it first came out but ended up keeping it simple with Sound ID. I was also tempted by the Slate VSX but the headband debacle turned me away. Kind of prefer using my own headphones anyway.


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## onnomusic (Feb 8, 2022)

Slate vsx def upped my headphones mixing game (I mainly use it without the rooms but with can opener instead, although the rooms are a nice way to check the mixes).


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## SupremeFist (Feb 8, 2022)

onnomusic said:


> Slate vsx def upped my headphones mixing game (I mainly use it without the rooms but with can opener instead, although the rooms are a nice way to check the mixes).


Interesting — do you find that Canopener gives you better translation than HD Linear 2 in VSX (ie no room emulation, just headphone correction)?


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## onnomusic (Feb 8, 2022)

SupremeFist said:


> Interesting — do you find that Canopener gives you better translation than HD Linear 2 in VSX (ie no room emulation, just headphone correction)?


yeah I think so  It might just that I was already used to mixing with can opener, but yeah, it does help me I feel, and it also feel a bit more natural and less fatiguing to listen to for longer periods of time


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## Zanshin (Feb 9, 2022)

I ordered a pair of LCD-X too. How many are using this without a dedicated amp? I have a Babyface Pro FS, and comparing the RME specs to what Audeze recommends - I would think the Babyface Pro is not enough? I tried one of those online calculators and it looks like it should work fine lol.

I'd rather keep it simple with just the Babyface of course 

I should probably start my neck strength exercises.


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## Monkberry (Feb 9, 2022)

I have the Babyface also but I bought the Little Labs Monotor a couple years back when I bought the HD-600s. I was a little concerned with the few people mentioning the weight of the LCD-X phones over on the Gearslutz Mastering forum but many never mention it, so I guess I'll know tomorrow when they arrive.


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## Zanshin (Feb 9, 2022)

I am researching amps just in case. I definitely want something with it's own DAC and optical input. However really I don't want anything else on my desk if I can help it.


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## Monkberry (Feb 10, 2022)

Just spent about an hour with the new LCD-X phones. They are definitely louder than my HD-600s and more detailed. They look massive in person but I was surprised at how comfortable they are. The leather pads are really soft and I don't feel the weight being a potential problem for me. The headband is fairly wide so I assume it helps distribute the weight. I can't imaging people getting a stiff neck or whatever from wearing these. They are only 22 ounces. I think the overall EQ balance is really nice and you do hear more detail than the HD-600s. The cable is a little shorter than I had hoped for at 6.2 feet. I'm thinking about getting a Moon Audio Blue Dragon 10' cable but I'm having a hard time rationalizing the $395 price tag.


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## Zanshin (Feb 10, 2022)

Mine come tomorrow, I'm looking forward to it 

I'm going to, at least initially, stick to Canopener > Sonarworks that I was using with my HD650.


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## Monkberry (Feb 10, 2022)

I just added Realphones last night but I like the simplicity of Sonarworks SoundID. I was looking at Reveal + just because it's under the Audeze umbrella but I'd rather keep that part of mixing as simple as possible. I think you're going to like the LCD-X phones. I was playing a project that had an 808 tonal kick from the Omnisphere Sonic Extension Seismic Shock expansion that was unbelievable in the LCD-X. You can hear it on the Sennheisers but the Audezes really bring out low end and it's not smeared, it has a lot of definition. The high end is pretty clear also. It's just a lot more alive than my HD-600s in a good way.


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## Zanshin (Feb 11, 2022)

Monkberry said:


> I just added Realphones last night but I like the simplicity of Sonarworks SoundID. I was looking at Reveal + just because it's under the Audeze umbrella but I'd rather keep that part of mixing as simple as possible. I think you're going to like the LCD-X phones. I was playing a project that had an 808 tonal kick from the Omnisphere Sonic Extension Seismic Shock expansion that was unbelievable in the LCD-X. You can hear it on the Sennheisers but the Audezes really bring out low end and it's not smeared, it has a lot of definition. The high end is pretty clear also. It's just a lot more alive than my HD-600s in a good way.


They have landed. Initial impression is very very good. Definitely more detail than the HD650s, and the bass... yup mmm. I have been noodling most of the morning through my monitors, and when I put these on, changed the sonarworks profile, and turned on canopener - I didn't feel like I was slumming it like I usually do when I switch to headphones 

Edit: Yes big. Weight seems fine but we will see after a few hours of use. More comfortable than the HD650s anyway.

Edit 2: 6ft cord is way too short...


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## SupremeFist (Feb 11, 2022)

Monkberry said:


> . I'm thinking about getting a Moon Audio Blue Dragon 10' cable but I'm having a hard time rationalizing the $395 price tag.


I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that a $400 headphone _cable_ is utter bullshit.


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## Monkberry (Feb 11, 2022)

SupremeFist said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that a $400 headphone _cable_ is utter bullshit.


I've talked myself out of this after a very short time pondering. I think there are many out there that might disagree but I would rather start recording at a higher sample rate (96k) to achieve more clarity but I won't do that either until I can afford the CPU and storage space trade off.


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## Monkberry (Feb 11, 2022)

Zanshin said:


> They have landed. Initial impression is very very good. Definitely more detail than the HD650s, and the bass... yup mmm. I have been noodling most of the morning through my monitors, and when I put these on, changed the sonarworks profile, and turned on canopener - I didn't feel like I was slumming it like I usually do when I switch to headphones
> 
> Edit: Yes big. Weight seems fine but we will see after a few hours of use. More comfortable than the HD650s anyway.
> 
> Edit 2: 6ft cord is way too short...


Glad it's positive for you. On my second day with these and loving them. I spent a good 6 hours yesterday with them and no problem with the weight. I take frequent, brief breaks because I can't sit in one place for more than an a couple of hours. I'm gonna look around for a longer cable.


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## Zanshin (Feb 11, 2022)

Monkberry said:


> I'm gonna look around for a longer cable.


Let me know what you find.

I also want to say, the Babyface Pro FS seems to handle powering them just fine. I may still pick up a little amp-dac combo at some point though.


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## Monkberry (Feb 11, 2022)

Zanshin said:


> Let me know what you find.
> 
> I also want to say, the Babyface Pro FS seems to handle powering them just fine. I may still pick up a little amp-dac combo at some point though.


Yeah, the Babyface is easily capable. I find the Little Labs Monotor is a bit warmer and beefier. I'll let you know if I find a longer cable. The hard part is the mini xlr connectors. I'm sure someone like Redco will make them .


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## BassClef (Feb 11, 2022)

Zanshin said:


> I am researching amps just in case. I definitely want something with it's own DAC and optical input. However really I don't want anything else on my desk if I can help it.


Take a look at the Fiio K5-Pro.


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## Zanshin (Feb 11, 2022)

BassClef said:


> Take a look at the Fiio K5-Pro.


Dang that looks perfect. Love it has the big volume knob with "off" on it.


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## BassClef (Feb 11, 2022)

Zanshin said:


> Dang that looks perfect. Love it has the big volume knob with "off" on it.


It sounds better that the "phone out" on my Focusrite Clarett 2PreSUB audio interface.


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## Markrs (Jul 26, 2022)

There isn't too many videos that compare the different studio monitor simulation software for headphones. In the below video dSoniq Realphones, Sonarworks and Waves NX using Sennheisr HD650 are compared against each other, where there is no correction software and against a mix done with studio monitors.


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## Pier (Jul 26, 2022)

Markrs said:


> There isn't too many videos that compare the different studio monitor simulation software for headphones. In the below video dSoniq Realphones, Sonarworks and Waves NX using Sennheisr HD650 are compared against each other, where there is no correction software and against a mix done with studio monitors.



It's an interesting idea but kinda flawed.

He's not mixing but mastering where the changes are more subtle. The other aspect is that "knowing the room" (or headphones) is critical. How long has he been using these virtual rooms?

Finally, regarding the shootout it's biased. He did those masters himself and is listening on the same gear/audio chain used to do the masters. It would have made more sense if he had used other people and made them listen to the mastered material in a variety of places (car, home stereo, laptop speakers, etc).

I don't trust this test but, if I did, my conclusion would be that correction software is kinda useless. The differences between masters are quite small. None of the masters stand out as being much better or worse than the others. Again, probably because of mastering vs mixing.


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## synthetic (Jul 26, 2022)

I don't think you'll find any audio engineers who prefer headphones to studio monitors. Even budget monitors in an untreated room are going to give you a more trustworthy playback than headphones alone. I might check for problems in the bass in headphones if mixing on 5" 2-ways or something, but the bass in headphones is wildly inaccurate. You're not going to hear any front to back soundstage "depth" in headphones, you're not going to hear reverb very well, any subtle panning is lost. It can give a different perspective on your mix, but I'm going to trust almost any studio monitors more. There's no better investment than your monitoring setup, both speakers and treatment. Skip the third string library and put your budget where it really counts.


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## Pier (Jul 26, 2022)

synthetic said:


> I don't think you'll find any audio engineers who prefer headphones to studio monitors.


There are many. There's one called Andrew Scheps that might be familiar.


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## SupremeFist (Jul 26, 2022)

synthetic said:


> I don't think you'll find any audio engineers who prefer headphones to studio monitors.


This is pro mixer Vince Ratti. YMMV of course.


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## synthetic (Jul 26, 2022)

From the video roundtables I've watched, Andrew Scheps is mixing Atmos on PMCs. He is checking mixes on headphones for Apple Spacial Audio (Apple Music) and Atmos Binaural (Tidal) but those are headphone-only formats. (His roundtable on Atmos mixing is amazing BTW.)


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## thaeo (Jul 26, 2022)

bFooz said:


> The solution would be a headtracker and I know only two manufacturers offering this -
> 
> https://www.waves.com/hardware/nx-head-tracker


The NX header tracker is incredible. I had to do a double-take when I first tried it to confirm my monitors were not on. I cannot overstate what a huge difference it makes to not only mixing, but composing and enjoying music with headphones. 

It's night and day between having a stereo image "stuck" between your ears no matter which way you move your head, and a proper stereo field that remains fixed in spatial position as with monitors. Big difference to ear fatigue as well.


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## Pier (Jul 26, 2022)

synthetic said:


> From the video roundtables I've watched, Andrew Scheps is mixing Atmos on PMCs. He is checking mixes on headphones for Apple Spacial Audio (Apple Music) and Atmos Binaural (Tidal) but those are headphone-only formats. (His roundtable on Atmos mixing is amazing BTW.)


For Atmos yes. There's really no way around using speakers if you're working in Atmos. And I agree on his Atmos roundtables.

But he has been mixing in stereo exclusively on headphones for (I think) over 10 years.


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## Aldunate (Jul 26, 2022)

I think you can work in Atmos with Dear Reality Monitor. 
It also flattens some headphones and puts you in a virtual room.
Extremely useful, and you can buy it for 30 USD at Plugin Alliance.
The bad; high latency, is not suitable for playing.

Goodhertz Can Opener is my other option, or maybe I'll go for both. 

I have Sennheisers HD 25s but never use them. I will be moving in a month and I need to get accustomed to headphones.
Does anyone think an Open Back solution is more suitable for long studying/writing sessions?
Im thinking Sennheiser 600 or 650.


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## ryst (Jul 27, 2022)

synthetic said:


> I don't think you'll find any audio engineers who prefer headphones to studio monitors. Even budget monitors in an untreated room are going to give you a more trustworthy playback than headphones alone. I might check for problems in the bass in headphones if mixing on 5" 2-ways or something, but the bass in headphones is wildly inaccurate. You're not going to hear any front to back soundstage "depth" in headphones, you're not going to hear reverb very well, any subtle panning is lost. It can give a different perspective on your mix, but I'm going to trust almost any studio monitors more. There's no better investment than your monitoring setup, both speakers and treatment. Skip the third string library and put your budget where it really counts.


Glenn Schick, a great mastering engineer from Atlanta that I've worked with a few times over the years, started traveling mastering big label records on headphones years ago on his laptop. 

Personally, I started using headphones more and more for various reasons. My studio is in my living room so at night when my wife is sleeping, I can still crank things up and get a good sense of how things sound using plugins like Waves NX (CLA room is my fave), or Realphones. A lot of times in LA, there always seems to be some construction going on nearby, so headphones certainly help in those situations. 

And after plenty of experience, I've done whole mixes in headphones for clients and I'm totally confident in using them if they were my only choice. It also prepares me for doing more work while traveling or if we move to a new spot and it might not be ideal to have the studio set up I have now in our new place. I have to have a backup plan. Also, last year I mixed a 5.1 score for an indie film all in headphones. Very few changes were requested and it was a "taste" thing, not a translation thing.


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## Pier (Jul 27, 2022)

ryst said:


> Also, last year I mixed a 5.1 score for an indie film all in headphones. Very few changes were requested and it was a "taste" thing, not a translation thing.


Oh I would like to read more about that!

BTW what headphones do you use?


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## ryst (Jul 27, 2022)

Pier said:


> Oh I would like to read more about that!
> 
> BTW what headphones do you use?


For that particular film I was referring to, I used the Embody Alan Meyerson plugin to monitor 5.1 in headphones. What was really cool was I worked with the composer who was in NY and I was able to stream a 5.1 output via Audio Movers Listento plugin from my master fader, over to the composer's real 5.1 speaker setup. For instance, if I soloed the Ls speaker on my end, that's all he'd here coming out of his system on his end, all in real time. It was a trip and it worked great.

Since then I started using the New Audio Technology's Spatial Audio Designer as well and switch back and forth between it and the AM Immersive plugin when doing surround. I actually really like what Waves is doing with the NX plugins and the head tracker. I'm curious to see if they will get into the Atmos space via headphones.

Speaking of which, I use the Senn 600's.


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## Pier (Jul 27, 2022)

ryst said:


> For that particular film I was referring to, I used the Embody Alan Meyerson plugin to monitor 5.1 in headphones. What was really cool was I worked with the composer who was in NY and I was able to stream a 5.1 output via Audio Movers Listento plugin from my master fader, over to the composer's real 5.1 speaker setup. For instance, if I soloed the Ls speaker on my end, that's all he'd here coming out of his system on his end, all in real time. It was a trip and it worked great.
> 
> Since then I started using the New Audio Technology's Spatial Audio Designer as well and switch back and forth between it and the AM Immersive plugin when doing surround. I actually really like what Waves is doing with the NX plugins and the head tracker. I'm curious to see if they will get into the Atmos space via headphones.
> 
> Speaking of which, I use the Senn 600's.


Woah that's awesome.

It would be weird if Waves NX didn't get into Atmos. We've had Atmos in films for years now, but because of Apple it's becoming mainstream for music too. It seems only logical a space virtualization software for mixing and mastering would support Atmos.

I wonder if the streaming setup you mentioned will be feasible with Atmos since I imagine in 5.1 you were sending discrete channels.


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## liquidlino (Jul 29, 2022)

thaeo said:


> The NX header tracker is incredible. I had to do a double-take when I first tried it to confirm my monitors were not on. I cannot overstate what a huge difference it makes to not only mixing, but composing and enjoying music with headphones.
> 
> It's night and day between having a stereo image "stuck" between your ears no matter which way you move your head, and a proper stereo field that remains fixed in spatial position as with monitors. Big difference to ear fatigue as well.


What's the update rate like with the tracker vs a webcam? I use NX Ocean Way with a webcam, and it has quite a bit of lag when moving my head (plus when it loses your face, it snaps back to centre position, which is annoying and breaks the illusion).

Also, wowsers. I was inspired by the comments on this thread to buy a planar headphone set - I bought the Hifiman 400SE. Applied the AutoEQ Oratory1990 convolution to it, and have to say, everything everyone says is true - can hear spatial layout much better than on my HD650, and even at low volumes the sub bass is nice and clear. Everything sounds so detailed... looking forward to trying mixing on them with NX... hoping I'm finally going to be able to hear why all my mixing is so awful! (probably not, there's no escaping a complete lack of talent/experience).


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## Pier (Jul 29, 2022)

@liquidlino how does the 400SE compare to the HD650 in terms of tone?

Anyone can compare the 400SE with the Sundara?


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## liquidlino (Jul 29, 2022)

Pier said:


> @liquidlino how does the 400SE compare to the HD650 in terms of tone?
> 
> Anyone can compare the 400SE with the Sundara?


So, I use eq correction, but they still have very distinct tone from each other (hd650 and 400se). The hd650 has that well known warm blanket, ever so slightly muffled, darker sound, with poor spatial soundstage. The 400se is clear, transparent without being bright, and everything is clearly in its own place spatially. Without eq, the 400se is still very good, but the eq brings up the sub bass and evens out the upper mids, makes it a little smoother, removes the little bit of shouty ness. 

Audiosciencereview measured both Sundara and 400se and the 400se measured better and amir subjectively preferred the 400se, that's why I didn't buy the sundara. 

The 400se is supremely comfortable as well, huge soft felt pads, no touching of my large ears.


And the 400se passed the wife test. She actually sat and listened to favourite songs, saying how amazing everything sounded. 

I did have a quick try at mixing last night. Instantly I could hear the volume and tonal balance issues between my f horn and piano in a little piece I'm writing, as well as them sounding like in different rooms. Was able to eq and rebalance volumes and mics and reverbs, now they sound convincingly like recorded together. No way I could hear that on the hd650. All with nx, and suddenly the phantom centre speaker appeared too, which the hd650 didn't do, but the m50x does (my other good headphones).

Very very happy.


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## ryst (Aug 1, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> What's the update rate like with the tracker vs a webcam? I use NX Ocean Way with a webcam, and it has quite a bit of lag when moving my head (plus when it loses your face, it snaps back to centre position, which is annoying and breaks the illusion).



I couldn't stand the webcam on my mac with NX. So much lag. Might have been because it just wasn't picking up the proper amount of light needed but regardless, I bought the tracker. Huge difference for me. Haven't looked back since.


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## MartinH. (Aug 1, 2022)

Headphones really are a rabbithole and a half... after having bought 3 studio headphones I now got a noise cancelling wireless Sony WH-1000XM4 and my god is it more comfortable to wear than any of those studio headphones! I haven't tried/dared mixing on them yet, since they're probably ill-suited for that, but they are such a relief in terms of wearing comfort and blocking outside noise, I know I'll be wearing them way more often than the others. Makes me kind of regret the DT770 pro, since I only kept those for their noise blocking qualities.


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## Pier (Aug 1, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> Headphones really are a rabbithole and a half... after having bought 3 studio headphones I now got a noise cancelling wireless Sony WH-1000XM4 and my god is it more comfortable to wear than any of those studio headphones! I haven't tried/dared mixing on them yet, since they're probably ill-suited for that, but they are such a relief in terms of wearing comfort and blocking outside noise, I know I'll be wearing them way more often than the others. Makes me kind of regret the DT770 pro, since I only kept those for their noise blocking qualities.


In terms of comfort I think the HD600 are the best I've ever used. Zero sound isolation though!


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## MartinH. (Aug 1, 2022)

Pier said:


> In terms of comfort I think the HD600 are the best I've ever used. Zero sound isolation though!


Can't comment on the HD600, but the Massdrop HD58x are the worst I have ever worn in terms of comfort. I think I've read their earpads are thinner than on the proper Sennheisers, but I'm not sure.


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