# Switching to a MAC PRO as master DAW



## Cat (Jun 21, 2015)

I have always been a PC/Windows person and became quite knowledgeable in debugging windows. At least for what I need in composing music (Cubase, VEPro, Kontakt, Play, etc).

Lately I became increasingly frustrated with Windows though and I am considering switching to Mac for the Master system (Cubase). I've had a Macbook pro laptop for a some time and while it is clearly not powerful enough for a Master DAW, I simply fell in love with OSX. 


So I am considering purchasing a new Mac Pro to make it my main DAW and convert my PCs to Servers for Play/Kontakt libraries. But before anything I thought I would come here and ask what might be the pitfalls, what should I be aware of?

I'll probably go for the base model (with the lowest graphics option) but get the 3.5GHz Six-core CPU. I have a few questions:

1. Is it a good idea to get only 12 or 16 GB ram and later on upgrade to 64 GB but not from Apple but from OCW -http://eshop.macsales.com? Is this a good store or are there other better places? I live in Canada.

2. The big issue will obviously be the lack of (internal) expandability for harddisks (SSDs). What do you guys do to surpass this negative? I have a bunch of SSDs so I could get some USB3 enclosures but I doubt they will be fast enough. OR would they? I come from Sata3 SSDs in RAID-0 benchmarking at 1100 MB/s sustain read rate  …I also noticed the OWC Thunderbay 4 Mini on the same website that can do Raid-0 of 4 SSDs and connect via Thunderbolt2. They claim up to 1346 MB/s sustain read rate but is this so? Does anyone have any experience with such a device in the real world of composing using smples, Kontakt, etc?

3. I’ll have to part ways with my trusted RME Multiface interface (PCI). I’ll go USB but my budget does not allow me to get an RME USB interface for now. Not even the Babyface. I’ll use a Roland Quoadro Capture USB interface (4x4). So I am going from internal PCI card to external USB. Would that be okay? I am hoping to get at least decently low buffer settings (without dropouts).

Thanks in advance!


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## samphony (Jun 21, 2015)

Why don't you keep your RME and put it in a thunderbolt housing?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 21, 2015)

Because it's expensive, samphony!

Yes USB is fine, but I wonder whether there are other options. If you're keeping your Windows machine as a slave and using VE Pro, why not just keep the RME card in it and send audio to it over VE Pro?


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## Cat (Jun 21, 2015)

Interesting idea with sending audio to the slave which will be fitted with the RME card. I'll look into it but I suspect thos will at least double the overall latency. 

And indeed, a thunderbolt housing device is expensive. The Sonnet ones are more resonably priced but they don't have PCI. To switch RME from PCI to PCIe will cost me about $600-700 on top of the Sonnet's price. I am better off buying the babyface and sell the multiface. Or maybe I should just go for the Apollo thunderbolt interface? Anyways, updating the audio interface will only be phase 2. I already have the Roland Usb interface hanging around ...

Thank you guys for your replies.


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## dtonthept (Jun 22, 2015)

The main pitfall of the mac at this stage is the lack of expanadability and inflexibility of the cases, and the insane cost premium which makes them really unimpressive for bang for buck. I say this as a die-hard mac user for the past 20 years, who is now seriously looking at switching to PC because I've become uncomfortable with Apple's increasing shift towards being a (brilliant) fashion and lifestyle brand rather than as creators of tools for creative people.

Otherwise, check out how much worse macs perform as DAW hosts compared to PC - this info was truly shocking to me after believing for so long I was on a superior platform. I think the site that ran comparisons was called DAWBench or something...

I totally agree that OSX is great, so many good things about Apple, but looking at upgrading my computer now, from a (still running very well) 2009 Mac Pro, I just can't find a way to justify Mac as a platform....

I hope this is helpful to you - I think I'd still run an Apple laptop but feel that my next main DAW should just be a totally stripped down, beefed up PC.


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## dtonthept (Jun 22, 2015)

Also, do you mind if I ask you specifically what you've been finding frustrating in Windows? Maybe we could compare notes.

For me my OSX frustrations essentially come down to crazy high price of hardware (I specced a PC rig at $4,200 which would bench higher than a $12,000 Mac setup - which included enclosures I would need for drives and PCIe cards), and the feeling that apple is now on a calendar and marketing based OS upgrade path, so many changes recently have felt unneccesary and like people in an office somewhere trying to justify their jobs by fiddling around with and changing things, then of course compatibility always seems to be broken with half the critical software I use, so most updates are totally not worth it yet become critical at some point to take advantage of develpments in DAW or plugs etc....

Fundamentally I'm feeling uneasy at Apple having a monopoly over the main tool I use for all my creativity and for my livelihood...


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## FriFlo (Jun 22, 2015)

I second that! I also used a Mac pro alongside Pc slaves and I still have a mac at home (Mac mini) and I love the OS! But it is just some design, that is not relevant at most of the time you work: Basically, you have to go to the terminal to get your hands dirty to do some serious tweaks, that is why the Mac OS looks so clean vs. Windows. I would sure whish Windows could learn something from that, but this is mostly cosmetical! There are at least as many bugs with Mac as there are with PCs! Don't believe, there will be a difference! You will really be changing to Apple for the looks!


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## PeterKorcek (Jun 22, 2015)

Hi there, I too was drawn into the New Mac pro madness, even though I was thinking about buying one for a long time. I was using it for a couple of months, but never got to the performance that I achieved with my custom PC. It all looked really nice and was using Logic pro and VEP5. Eventually I found out that I missed Cubase and I switched the DAWs. After that I found out that Cubase ran far better on PC - I know they are people with different stories and experience, but this is how it felt to me.

And the whole 2 system, conputer setup was slowing my creativity at certain points. Especially when I am just a hobbyist, this setup was a complete overkill for me. So, after a while I sold the Mac pro and switched to 1 computer setup - powerful custom PC with lovely Cubase 8 Pro and it felt just right again - the same setup I began with 2 years ago.

Bottom line - try to think about if you REALLY need the new mac pro for your work. I use macbook pro for my everyday work (2 years now) and its fabulous. In terms of DAWs and setups and the fact that I am hobbyist, simple PC/Cubase setup is fine.


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## Cat (Jun 23, 2015)

Sorry for my late reply. I am on a very tight deadline which I am on the verge of missing because of computer issues. I had to spend almost a week to debug a bunch of nasty Windows problems.

Long story short - in the middle of this project both Cubase 8 and VEP started to act up a little (C8 wouldn’t export in RealTime due to “timeout” (??) and VEP would not load the default surround panner even after re-installing VEP). I decided to revert the system to the latest backup I created a few days before using Acronis True Image. Failure!! In desperation I tried about a dozen more earlier backups done over the last 3 months and they all failed as well. By failure I mean the restoration was stopped halfway through after already wiping out the system drive. I tried all sort of combinations - backup drive on USB3, then on USB2, then simply disassembled and mounted internally on SATA2, then on SATA3, then on another add-on Raid card - to no avail. Two days of this and I decided to wipe the drive and instal W7 fresh. Another 2 days of installing all the Win updates, drivers, etc. I had all sort of problems with the fact that I needed my system to have SATA configured in RAID (there are some hack to allow W7 to do that) and although I consider myself somehow experienced with Windows (having already installed it numerous time on different systems over the last 20 years) I still had a lot of glitches which made me have to start over. A nightmare! The new motherboards (I have a Asus Sabertooth x79) have some features exclusive to Windows 8 that I realized did not work well with W7. I still have to stick with W7 as I hear W8.1 is really bad. But W7 seems like it is being phased out…All this time I remembered how easy and elegant it was when I installed OSX on a new macbook pro! No more boot issues, no more drivers incompatibility, no more installation disk, etc. Only the password for the Wifi router was needed! 

Anyways, after spending another day tweaking windows (OSX doesn’t need this, does it?), installing Cubase, VEP and all the other plugins, Kontakt, importing the templates, etc…another big, nasty surprise!! The Cubase projects would open normally, allow me to edit and whatever BUT would NOT allow me to save!! WHAT?!? Indeed, all the projects created either recently (for the current project), either months ago or even 2 years ago - they appear that were all corrupt!! The only projects that would open AND save were the ones which did not have VEP plugins. In other words the audio-only projects (where I basically mix the cues using the already exported stems) were all fine. Of course I then tried the projects backup - same thing. Then I tried the projects’ backup’s backup on an offline disk - to no avail. I tried to open the project on my macbook pro. They opened (even though there were plugins missing, etc) but they also could not be saved!! VEP is also installed on this mac. By the way, I tried to uninstall VEP from both my PC and mac thinking that this might be the problem maker. Projects would open with missing plugin (VEP) but would still NOT save!

Sorry for the long post - believe me, the above description is condensed! One week of nightmare and I decided two things:
1. I go ahead and finish my gig without being able to save (I use some convoluted workarounds of saving midi data, doing track exports, etc)
2. Time to get a Mac Pro.

I realize that for the same budget a PC outperforms a MAc by far. Question is: do I really need that crazy super speed and CPU power (while I will have 2 high-end PC slaves anyways) or do I need stability? It is not the fact that OSX looks nice, but it offeres less surprises and yes, it is costly. But if I miss the deadline now and this obviously would jeopardize my next gig -that would be VERY costly!!  

Now, after having read your posts above, I am starting to doubt my decision to go for Mac Pro. The problem is, like I said, that Windows 7 feels like it is aging (and motherboards are already built with W8 in mind). Windows 8.1 is a definite no go. Windows 10 is around the corner but it will be another year until I will trust to install it on my systems.


I thought I would ask you, Mac experts, about a Mac Pro - especially the two questions regarding the RAM (is it okay to buy it from a non-Apple store like http://eshop.macsales.com) and about the external SSD enclosure (like the OWC Thunderbay 4 mini - is it okay for samples?).


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## snattack (Jun 23, 2015)

Using Cubase and VEP w OSX and a Mac Pro, I say: NO.

I have a Mac Pro 2013 8-core , and Cubase 8 simply isn't stable. Various crashes because of "randomness" actually screwed up one of my deadlines for a pitch recently. It's the same on my Macbook Pro, same on my Macbook Pro before that, same on my PC before that.

When my Mac Pro - in about 4 years - is old enough, I will switch to PC. I changed because of the same argument 4 years ago, and it didn't add up.

Simply put it: pro audio software is not as good programmed as software in other fields, we'll just have to live with stability issues unless there's a stab of people behind you constantly evaluation your system specifics and optimizing it for your particular system.


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## Symfoniq (Jun 23, 2015)

I went the other direction, after using Macs since the late 1980's. The Mac Pro isn't internally expandable anymore, and like others noted here, DAWs other than Logic will probably run better under Windows. I find my Windows PC to be a more practical, affordable, and expandable DAW than any of the systems currently sold by Apple.

I would only make the jump if you're planning to switch to Logic.


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## rgames (Jun 23, 2015)

Cat @ Tue Jun 23 said:


> after spending another day tweaking windows (OSX doesn’t need this, does it?)


Have you considered that your tweaks might be the cause of your problems?

I run Windows 100% stock and haven't seen anyone with a system that runs better. But I have a seen a lot of tweaked systems that run a lot worse.

rgames


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## FriFlo (Jun 24, 2015)

I think, the number of people who came to tell you, the Mac is not the holly cow you believe it is, should be pretty compelling by now. But you seem convinced and someone the Apple propaganda has gotten is hard to cure! 
Well, consider this: my experience with my home Mac is also quite a good one! But that is only because I don't rely on its stability that much the few times Apple numbers or pages crashes (it does happen) is not a catastrophy and I could find workarounds for the lousy banking applications that exist on Mac OS X ...
The troubles you are having is due to some bad hardware combination, bad Windows settings or tweaking gone wrong. It is just this system of yours. On the other hand, I had quite some problems with Kernel panics on my last Mac pro as well, which I could never figure out. In other words: it is an illusion, that a Mac cannot have these problems.
My advice: if you want to spend money on stability of your system, why don't you buy from a audio PC dealer like vision DAW? There, you can spend as much for you PC as for the Mac pro (well, almost)!  Sarcasm aside, if they are good, the will choose a good combination of components and do some stuff (I guess!) that will make you system be more reliable. If money was no issue at all for me, I would probably pay someone to build my DAWs. You will probably stick to your plan anyway, cause it has grown to much in your head. In 2 years, maybe you will remember this thread and whish, you wouldn't have spent those 5-10k for nothing.


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## tabulius (Jun 24, 2015)

I didn't know that Macs were that problematic with music/audio use. What I've heard that people are mostly happy with the new Mac Pros. And that the Xeons really shine in a heavier workloads. A Spitfire studio comes in mind where they had replaced their old slaves with one Mac Pro and said that it gave all the power they needed.

Last year I was about to get one myself but now I've been looking at i7-5960X builds and really soon the 128GB DDR4 ram kits come available. I think the 8-core, 128GB beast-PC will be a solid choice for me. I've been building PCs for years, so it is really hard for me to switch and pay the premium Apple price. I do like the design and silent power that the new Mac Pro has.


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## FriFlo (Jun 24, 2015)

I wouldn't say Apple computers are much worse than Windows PCs in Audio, either. I would just warn someone, who might think, a Mac would be the killer machine that just works. It simply isn't. There might be some tasks, a Mac is better at, while there are some a PC is better at. I get the impression based on my experience, that things like Asio performance and Sampler efficiency (apart from EXS24) is mostly superior on the PC. Where the PC obviously outshines the Mac by far is bang for the bug and customzabilty. One has to be quite stubborn not to realize that ...


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## NYC Composer (Jun 24, 2015)

FriFlo @ Wed Jun 24 said:


> I think, the number of people who came to tell you, the Mac is not the holly cow you believe it is, should be pretty compelling by now. But you seem convinced and someone the Apple propaganda has gotten is hard to cure!
> Well, consider this: my experience with my home Mac is also quite a good one! But that is only because I don't rely on its stability that much the few times Apple numbers or pages crashes (it does happen) is not a catastrophy and I could find workarounds for the lousy banking applications that exist on Mac OS X ...
> The troubles you are having is due to some bad hardware combination, bad Windows settings or tweaking gone wrong. It is just this system of yours. On the other hand, I had quite some problems with Kernel panics on my last Mac pro as well, which I could never figure out. In other words: it is an illusion, that a Mac cannot have these problems.
> My advice: if you want to spend money on stability of your system, why don't you buy from a audio PC dealer like vision DAW? There, you can spend as much for you PC as for the Mac pro (well, almost)!  Sarcasm aside, if they are good, the will choose a good combination of components and do some stuff (I guess!) that will make you system be more reliable. If money was no issue at all for me, I would probably pay someone to build my DAWs. You will probably stick to your plan anyway, cause it has grown to much in your head. In 2 years, maybe you will remember this thread and whish, you wouldn't have spent those 5-10k for nothing.



I must not be a Mac power user. For sure, I tend to stay years behind the newest revisions (I'm presently on Snow Leopard on my Mac Pro 2008 and Mountain Lion on my Mac Mini slave.)

That said, I've been using Macs professionally since 1989, and I've never had a kernel panic. I've had two hardware issues: a failed power supply in a Mac Plus (lo those many years ago) and a blown logic board in a Centris (also in the Stone Age) that was due to operator error. I've bought some buggy, crashy software over the years but those days seem long gone. My system is remarkably stable.


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## PeterKorcek (Jun 24, 2015)

I would say I had more troubleshooting with Windows, although the situation is better than many years ago. In OSX you almost do not know what is going under the hood, which might be good and might be bad. 

I use Mac Book pro for other than DAW stuff and it;s superb laptop. But when you don't want to use Logic Pro (I tried, it has some nice features) and specifically use Cubase - PC is better for performance in my opinion. It is now smooth and stable. With Mac I had occasional unknown crash for whatever reason, it felt slow and rigid and I was using 6-core, 32GB RAM version Mac Pro.


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## geronimo (Jun 29, 2015)

Cat said:


> 1. Is it a good idea to get only 12 or 16 GB ram and later on upgrade to 64 GB but not from Apple but from OCW -http://eshop.macsales.com? Is this a good store or are there other better places? I live in Canada.


If you look closely the prices in the Apple store, they have not abused the price of RAM for 2013 MacPro, unlike other machines.


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## Cat (Jun 30, 2015)

Thank you guys for your comments and advice.
I ended up purchasing a Xeon/128GB (Registered ECC) computer. I will install everything clean from scratch.
It turns out that a lot of my booting problems I had were due to the fact that I mixed up BIOS and UEFI approaches...

BTW I went for the ASROCK x99 Fatal1ty/USB3.1 motherboard since it supports 128 GB (Asus does not) and the Extreme6/USB3.1 was out of stock. 
It is a gaming motherboard but I will disable (or not use) the overclocking features. Also updated my Multiface to PCI Express. It was all costly but I hope it will pay off. We'll see...


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