# EIS and tonal common pratice techniques!!!



## Leandro Gardini (Sep 20, 2007)

Hi people...I want to know what´s the relation between EIS and the tonal music, mainly the common pratice period???I know EIS focus on 20 century techniques but, Is there any kind of relation between them???If so I´d like to listen to some samples!!!


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## Aaron Sapp (Sep 21, 2007)

:!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: 


:?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:


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## aeneas (Sep 21, 2007)

leogardini @ Thu 20 Sep said:


> Hi people...I want to know what´s the relation between EIS and the tonal music, mainly the common pratice period???I know EIS focus on 20 century techniques but, Is there any kind of relation between them???If so I´d like to listen to some samples!!!


I have heard that €¥$ developed a friendly relation with TM™ (Tonal Music ®) especially since its common practice has become uncommon. Also, it seems that €¥$'s focus on 20th century techniques did not alienate too much its intricate relation with TM™, considering their shared belief that notes are important for composing music. ♫♩♫♩♫♫♩©


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## Craig Sharmat (Sep 21, 2007)

Basically what Aaron and Arenas said.

I really am having a problem understanding the question.

EIS deals with tonal and 20th century techniques. Not really sure what you are looking for.


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## Leandro Gardini (Sep 21, 2007)

Common pratice music is based on some "rules" for voice leading that I think you know...there are many kinds of voice leading techniques and some of them is the one that comes from CP periods...as far as I can remember, I´ve heard in EIS some tonal compositions but never heard anything sounding like the old formal pratice voice leading...does EIS cover this period or is it focused only on 20 century technique???
I hope I´ve been clear now :? !!!


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## Patrick de Caumette (Sep 21, 2007)

If you are talking about strict counterpoint theory and how it compares to EIS, I would say that some strict counterpoint rules happen to be verified in EIS most of the time (in EIS, for example, a fifth happens to be approached by contrary motion very often but not always) but that it is not necesarily by design, but because of a universal order of things musical...


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## rJames (Sep 21, 2007)

Leo, I'll give this a stab to get the conversation flowing.

Spud studied everything he could get his hands on. Had plenty of formal training (I'm pretty sure). He found that there were too many rules.

One story about him is that his band was entertaining on a cruise ship. He was using his time to study music. By the time he learned all the rules presented in the book and got to the exercises, he couldn't write anything without breaking a rule or two. This is exaggeration, no doubt, but expresses his philosophy regarding what he wanted to leave future generations.

Spud has a very simple way to describe all voice leading. I suppose it is a rule, but it is more a technique that always provides a "correct" vl. But he also allows ANY voice leading if it gets the job done.

You don't study any "great" works when studying EIS. There is NO "Style" component.

There is a book on "modal" harmony, which does go into thinking about "chords" in inversions (In EIS the root is always the basis of the tonality, its never the third, fifth or seventh) BTW this philosophy is intellectual only because if it looks like a third in the bass, if it smells like a third in the bass...it IS a third in the bass.

In order to understand the heirarchy of overtones, Spud thinks about the lowest tone as the root (name of the chord).

For me, the course is about facilitating individual lines OVER thinking about vertical structure. When chords move in a block fashion, you need to worry about VL. When lines are weaving and momentarily creating vertical structure, you don't worry so much about VL.

Here's a recent cue. Upon analysis, I still make too many changes, too quickly...probably don't keep on the thematic topic long enough. But it is illustrative of how I don't care about vertical structure.

I have no idea of the vertical structure of this cue. I did when I wrote it...as I added parts. But I didnt' think about where I was coming from or going to, except following my melodies and rhythms that came out of my subconscious as I wrote.

For better or for worse; Jubilant Joyride.

If your browser doesn't allow popups, then just hit, SEARCH, and the cue will be there.


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## synergy543 (Sep 21, 2007)

[OT]

Ron, equally intriguing as the EIS discussion is your web site search engine. Wow! Did you design that? That's a great concept and looks like it should be very successful.

Are you using mySQL or some proprietary database?

Cheers,

Greg


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## rJames (Sep 21, 2007)

Thanks Greg. Yes, I designed it functionally and graphically and had someone do the programming. Bounced my ideas off of Luca (Lux) as I progressed.

I figure that the with the progression of the internet into daily business that the future of music is self-publishing.

Its turning out to be an OK marketing tool. But I don't think anyone will use it to look for stuff. I have a very small library. So, results are not guaranteed.


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## aeneas (Sep 21, 2007)

rjames, many good points! My two cents, mostly on rules:

Rules are made up by musicologists - composers never care much about them (musicologists and rules).  

Of course no one can write anything without breaking the rules. That is precisely why musicologists can't write successful music.

I know nothing about Spud's "philosophy", but 'disregarding rules' is no news since the days of Bach. 

As about Spud's presumed "technique that always provides a 'correct' voice leading", let me smile when linking it to the philosophy of "allowing ANY voice leading if it gets the job done." Of course, the latter is the ONLY right way to write music. Does Spud provide an answer as to what type of voice leading gets the job done? Oh - he does: ANY. So who needs EIS training, or ANY paid training? ~o) 

Of course there can be "NO 'Style' component" in EIS, as there is no style component whatsoever. What is style?

"The course is about facilitating individual lines OVER thinking about vertical structure" - glad to hear that, for no successful composer has ever built his music otherwise than as layered lines. Only lazy-minded composers think in vertical blocks. Voice leading is everything about music - if a "chord" sounds wrong, then it's not the "chord" at fault, but only a line (or maybe two) that doesn't move well.

rjames - kudos for not caring about vertical structure! No one really does! Except for musicologists and teachers, of course - but who cares about them? o/~ 

About "adding parts", I am not sure - my impression is that you have added too many parts in your jubilant cue. Just remove some of them and it will be perfect ("which ones, your majesty?" :mrgreen: )

edit -
HIS MAJESTY: I don't know "which ones" - look in the course, book #..., section #..., yaknow the drill.


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## synergy543 (Sep 21, 2007)

[OT]
Ron, have you seen eSessions? I imagine someone with a database such as yours could do good business acting as a broker for a group of internet composers. Of course, then you'd get into the business of running it (until you sell it) rather than composing. Ah, life's interesting tradeoffs!

Sorry for the interruption Leo.
Now back to your regularly scheduled EIS discussion...


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## rJames (Sep 21, 2007)

aeneas/
yes, you and I agree. But I always have to argue with some point (otherwise where is the fun?)

Style; style is VERY important. For me, now that I have a bunch of musical training under my belt, it is the holy grail.

It is both a bane (if you learned music by studying only one or two styles) and a gift (if you are able to identlfy and recreate)

I don't have the luxury of making money because people want to hear the music of Ron James. I (for now) make money only when I make music in a style that they think they need.

I still write music for Ron James fans (that's me [writer and fan])

What I meant by the study of style (or the lack of it in EIS), is that many musical programs are based on studying the music of others (the great composers). With that study you are given style. The composers themselves may not have cared about style...but as you say, the musicologists and instructors do care.

(I think) style is rhythm and instrumentation. Probably more than just these two components.

regarding voice leading/
Spud's thinking about VL has ramifications in ostinato that are very cool. Sometimes we want 2 or 3 part harmony somewhere and then we need good VL.

I don't mean that EIS is everything. No great composers that we know of (I guess that is imiplied in the word "great") studied EIS. But I am an apostle.


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## aeneas (Sep 21, 2007)

rJames @ Fri 21 Sep said:


> But I am an apostle.


Hallelujah! Rules rule, baby! /\~O


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## rJames (Sep 21, 2007)

synergy543 @ Fri Sep 21 said:


> [OT]
> Ron, have you seen eSessions?



I don't know what eSessions is but I have thought about opening my engine up to other composers.

I would have to have someone that wanted to manage it.

I live to compose and haven't much time left (only about 45 years, if I am lucky).

It would have to be supervised in creating keywords to go into the cues and the descriptions. Tons of work that is more "musicologist" oriented.

It can only have high quality cues (OK, some of mine probably don't live up to that) so that music supervisors do not reach a dead end.

But, yeah, I think there are a bunch of composers who can't get their work to clients who would love to find it.


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## Jack Weaver (Sep 21, 2007)

rJames,

are all of those your compositions on that site?


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## Jackull (Sep 21, 2007)

rJames @ Fri Sep 21 said:


> I still write music for Ron James fans (that's me [writer and fan])



Hey don't forget bout me... I'm one of your fan "Fill-In" those notes buddy 

-jackULL

sorry Leo it's getting OT now.


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## Craig Sharmat (Sep 21, 2007)

leogardini @ Fri Sep 21 said:


> Common pratice music is based on some "rules" for voice leading that I think you know...there are many kinds of voice leading techniques and some of them is the one that comes from CP periods...as far as I can remember, I´ve heard in EIS some tonal compositions but never heard anything sounding like the old formal pratice voice leading...does EIS cover this period or is it focused only on 20 century technique???
> I hope I´ve been clear now :? !!!



Yes in conjunction with book 2 and book 5 you get there. book 2 is voice leading which incorporates simple and advanced structures. Book 5 is more traditional harmony such as inversions, traditional chord structures chord and progressions ,etc etc etc. The appealing part of EIS is all ground is pretty much covered in one language, whether it be Bach, Jazz, counterpoint,serialism etc.


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## Leandro Gardini (Sep 21, 2007)

Ron, thanks for you input...the music you showed sounds great, but as I´ve always seen, it doesn´t sound like common pratice voice leading that I´m looking for...well, noe people will come to me and ask, how´s a common pratice music sounds for you???it´s hard to define with words the sound I want to hear but if someone here have studyed and composed hamony and counterpoint going through each period he may understand what I mean!!!
Pratric, no I´m not talking about strict counterpoint...I even woulnd´t dare to ask for something I hate  ...but I understood you thought!!!
Graig, thanks...this is exactly what I wanted to know...but I still missing some "formal compositions" based on this knowledge from EIS guys...most of the musics a very modern techniques!!!


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## Leandro Gardini (Sep 21, 2007)

Anyway, for avoiding misunderstandings I ask a simple question...does any guys that studied EIS has composed any baroque, classical or romantic music???


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## Craig Sharmat (Sep 22, 2007)

Some probably have but as it is a course made for "professional musicians" few EIS's are asked to recreate the wheel again.


If you go to

www.equalinterval.com

you can check out the following pieces which have elements of the Romantic era.

Blumberg-Don't Look under the Bed

Chase-Wake Up Little Nemo

Pelfry-Felecity

Alfonso-floating-
Fjords

You can also go to my site

www.scoredog.tv 

and check out the orchestral section on top

It is not strickly romantic but many of those elements exist in those pieces.

Book 5 deals directly with Baroque and Classical VL. Romantic music starts to use more advanced forms but they are all there in the course.

I may be able to post a specific raw lesson example later to prove this.

The thing is if this is the thing you are after why not go to the local university. They are well equipped for this type of training.


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## rJames (Sep 22, 2007)

Craig doesn't need any defending because we all know he does not have a mean or demeaning bone in his body.

I think what Craig is saying is similar to what I said in a PM to you.

The majority of EIS students are professional musicians and composers before they start the course. They are looking beyond the historical education because they've already been there.

Also, there aren't many paying jobs looking for baroque or romantic period music. So, even though there are people who are composing today in that style (I assume) you will probably not find it among EIS students.

There is not a book in EIS that formally studies these styles or periods.

I love history. I remember standing in front of a small broken wall of a castle in Ireland and thinking that there were guys on this side of the moat trying to kill guys on that side of the moat right here but just at a different point in time. It was awesome.

EIS gives you the ability to analyse those styles and recreate them if you want. But not many people want to.

Many people want to study them because they are so beautiful.

But the difference is a bit analogous to the love of art.

Some people want to look at realistic portraits and others at abstract ideas.

Spud started EIS as a direct inquiry to teach his perspective on music. it is genius, but it is not, by any means, a study of historical methods.

The exercises within EIS are to study the extremes of musicality. We study the edges so that the middle becomes simple.

You woulnd't want to hear the exercises. And once the exercises are done, the student goes on to work. And no one is paying for this kind of work.

EIS students want to explore music, not to study history. They are just two different things.

One not more important than the other.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Sep 22, 2007)

Leo, I didn't feel Craig's post was offensive at all.
On the contrary, I feel that by using " ", he was indicating that the term professional sound be taken with a grain of salt.

All he meant to say is that people taking the course are working composers and as such write in the style that they are contracted to do, most of the time commercial music for TV and film, so that the examples of concert music using EIS are few...


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## Frederick Russ (Sep 22, 2007)

Great post Ron!

Yeah, Craig wasn't trying to diss anybody Leo. Perhaps a cultural misunderstanding? He's just driving home the point that working composers are on a time schedule so whatever is learned needs to be streamlined (in delivery) with that in mind.


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## Leandro Gardini (Sep 22, 2007)

No problem...I know Graig is a very nice guy and in some way I misundestood him...actually reading "professional musicians" meant to me that studing the history would not be professional...Ron´s post is clarifying!!!
But actually I´ve just wrote to Ron privately this and I hope no one here get me wrong - I think all the courses we have available today are not complete yet (and no one will ever be)...I´ve already realised how great EIS is just listening to the demos of my old NS friends and how they improved just studing EIS...there´s no way not to say it´s a great way of teaching, but as I said, none of the courses are complete...and as far as I could relise, EIS don´t cover the important aspect of historical studies...doens´t matter because it doens´t make it less good...but I fell that all the courses need complement and EIS are one of them!!!
While traditional common pratice harmony don´t gives you all the freedom, studing it you may "improve the wheel" and not invent it again...today there are always better technologies coming up for the wheel and that´s one of the reason the car are much faster in the races!!!


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## Craig Sharmat (Sep 22, 2007)

Good posts everyone.

I put the term "professional musicians" but the correct term Spud used is "Working Musician". I meant this as other posters mentioned as the course was designed to aid people already working in the industry. How the course actually evolved was Spud Murphy who was an in demand arranger and composer in Hollywood would be asked by others how he did what he did and so the course was born.

On the subject of the eras you are looking at, the theory is covered in the course. Using past composer examples are not, but once you have the concepts down you should be able to analyze a score using EIS methods and understand it.

I have often mentioned to other EIS people it would be great if there was analysis of traditonal score from an EIS stand point but I am afraid the brain trust of EIS is too small and too busy to start or let alone complete this task. Maybe one day EIS will have a student who is driven to do analysis of famous scores and place it in written form for others. I know Mike Mitachick who teaches composition at Pasadena City College and is also an EIS grad would be a good canidate but alas, he is too busy also.


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## rJames (Sep 22, 2007)

One more thing I wanted to mention. Craig and I both touched on it.

Spud DOES go over historical aspects of music. But like all of Spuds lessons, they cover an immense amount of material in a one week lesson period.

Craig said Book 5, so I must concur cause I haven't looked it up.

Spud calls the study, Modal, because it covers tonaltiy based on a key from which modes are derived. He covers harmony and VL and inversions and the historical way of notating them. But he expands on it very quickly. There are no modes in EIS, there is no dorian scale. it is just a different scale. When you get right down to it, it is just nomenclature (words, different descriptions of the same thing).

He does the same in counterpoint. Counterpoint (as Spud teaches it) begins very directly, very conventionally. Then within a lesson or two, you are doing counterpoint in la-la land using EIS (equal intervals) to offset the counterpoint. It goes way out into the extremes, very quickly.

For me, Spud takes away the veil of secrecy that shrouds the study of music. He makes no distinction between the compositions of Mozart and Copland. Spud is directed towards what did each of them do that allowed their music to be called music instead of trash. he wants to teach the underlying truth, not the methods.
It is said that every lesson in EIS could take a year of study to study everything in detail that SPud presents.

I believe this is not much of an exaggeration.

Sorry, I go on and on. I just òóÀ   b+ óÀ   b+óÀ   b+óÀ


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## rJames (Sep 22, 2007)

Making fun of the words I use is not really a great argument for or against anything.

If I were quoting your book or methods I might very well say, Aeneas said, Aeneas wrote, etc. I don't think that means that I have a shrine to Aeneas.

You may be a supernatural talent, aeneas, but many people follow course studies or take private lessons to gain a greater understanding in a shorter period of time. I believe it is called, standing on the shoulders of giants. Not sure who I'm quoting here though, so I suppose that makes me look kinda stupid. I don't think you will gain much knowledge of architecture if you start by studying the works of Frank Gehry.

I'm pretty sure much of what you say is tongue-in-cheek. 

To study great works is going to be valuable for anyone. But self-guided study is not for everyone and certainly not a good way to find direction.

As a matter of fact, I have already told Leo that he may very well NOT want to study EIS. I don't think it is for everyone. 

I'm not sure his goals would be realized through a study of EIS. it does not illuminate any of Mozart's works. It does give you the tools to analyze what Mozart was doing.

*As for "the holy grail". It is for me. * I've used the wrong words though.

Aeneas, you seem to latch onto words. As I read Patrick's post above, you have already been the spoiler of the "Theory of Total Dissonance" thread.

I didn't realize you were here to be the anti-EIS spokesman.

You cannot decide, I cannot decide. Only history will decide if Spud's (there I go again)[said in a Reaganesque qualtiy] ideas have lasting power.

I don't think you are going to take EIS to prove how useless it is but you might at least give it the benefit of the doubt.

Leo posted this in the EIS section because he is curious. We current students are sharing our experiences. I think that's legal in most US states. And possibly around the world.

Lots of books have been written throughout history. 

If you want to give specific examples of why EIS is not a good method to study, then I think you should do that.


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## Craig Sharmat (Sep 22, 2007)

EIS is not "THE" answer but it can help.

If one takes EIS and does not study scores an incredible amount of information will be missed. EIS though helps me study scores so I can apply what I am reading.


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## aeneas (Sep 22, 2007)

First, why not addressing the questionable points that I raised about EIS? You did not address not even one. Now let me address your points:



Patrick de Caumette @ Sat 22 Sep said:


> Here we go again :roll:
> 
> Well Mr. Know it all, why don't you put in practice what you are preaching?
> 
> ...



1) If you insist, my pleasure.  

2) I am no Mr Know it all, and I do not preach - just gave my advice, which happen to be different than "go to Book#..." type of advices.

3) I never asked Jackull how he went about writing his cue, because I know pretty much everything that is happening in that cue.

4) Music is only one (well, I mean Western music - which was an "equal interval system" centuries before Spud) - and my level of expertise is enough advanced to not announce Theories of Total Dissonance if I am not able to sustain them. And then to come up with something like: "Come on, who cares? - it's just a cool title." (o) 

5) I do not need to spend neither three nor ten years on any system. I am learning music continuously. Who needs systems? Working Musicians perhaps? IME, systems are among the last things Working Musicians care about.

6) Colleges and conservatories may be good, but they are not mandatory.

7) Wolferl learned few basic things from his father. After the age of 10 or so he was far too advanced for poor ol' Leopold. :oops: 

8 ) Of course I am an ignorant, just as you are, and as everybody else. It is just that I hate confusion and bamboozling. I initially was intrigued and curious about this EIS system, but all my questions and points are continuously blocked by a wall of secrecy ("I won't go out of my way..."). Nobody gave me any reason to believe that this EIS system offers anything worth knowing that I don't already know. Read again my statements, they are pretty straightforward, they are not elusive referrals to "Book #..." I actually do have some clues about EIS by now, all negative unfortunately.

9) Again, I do not need to learn any "system", for my ears are as open as my mind is. Actually, says who that anyone needs to learn "systems"? Says Spud? Also, the relevance of my opinions for one or another person should be completely independent from the individual who happens to utter them.

10) As far as I am concerned, I have no control over how I sound to you. You don't know anything about my presumed mediocrity, I don't know anything about about your presumed mediocrity. Let us leave presumed mediocrities, and other personal remarks, out of this discussion. Hope that would be alright with you.

11) I was interested to learn about what this course is actually offering, but, as I said, so far - only repelling attitudes and elusive answers.

12) Why bother posting? Why, to learn more about EIS, of course. It still looks to me like an intriguing mystery - like a pyramid built over the dead body of someone who use to call himself "the pharaoh".  Also, to see if it is worth $660 of my money.

13) Do you have a problem with me stirring things that everybody here is keeping confusing?

14) All in due time. Although there can be no relation between the flaws that I was pointing to and the music that I am doing.

I hope my answers will satisfy you. At least I have had the decency to answer, instead of sending you to some obscure book... ~o)


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## Craig Sharmat (Sep 22, 2007)

If you live in LA I will happily show you all the books. If not as you can expect the course cannot be given away.

Here are some thoughts

No academy award winner was ever an EIS graduate. 

Numerous Emmy's and Grammy award winners are EIS graduates. 

Countless TV shows and movies have been written and arranged by EIS graduates. 

All of these grads will vouch for the course.

Plenty of of grads who have won nothing and scored nothing still took the course to better their musical abilities. 



It is not a sect, the problem with dealing with people who have not taken the course is the inital language Spud came up with. It makes his terms meaningless to the outside world though one uses his techniques to communicate with it.

When Spud concieved the course I do not know if he ever thought anyone but himself would ever teach it. That it feels like some clan may be in due part that when more people became involved, this feeling of a clan to an outsider pervades. It is not the first time I have heard this sentiment.


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## rJames (Sep 22, 2007)

Hey, Aeneas.

to help clarify and not to inflame (I hope).

EIS is more like the anti-system. Spud seemed to dislike systems as much as you do but he created his course in a systematic fashion and so it is a system.

I'm sure (my opinion) that he would have totally done away with seconds, major thirds, forths and the like but then none of his students would be able to communicate with musicians--the purpose of composition.

the "Theory of total Dissonance" is not really just an arbitrary name. It is Spud's way of naming a chapter (a series of lessons) that (can) bring all 12 tones into simultaneous use in a vertical structure.

No one is claiming that its never been done before.

In fact the entire work of EIS is dedicated to the understanding of consonance and dissonance (mostly consonance in its extremeties).

You are so right about the fact that nothing in music is mandatory. No special learning is necessary.

In fact, some kid is fooling around with his computer right now and he (or she) will eventually produce something that none of us recognize as music but will sweep the world in its acceptance. They will become rich beyond their wildest imaginations and will be remembered throughout history. Its bound to happen.

And Spud might be a footnote...

But that really doesn't prove or disprove the efficacy of studying EIS.

BTW EIS study is more like $3000-4000 per year. Books and private lessons.

USC is probably more like $20,000-30,000 per year.


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## Jackull (Sep 22, 2007)

aeneas @ Sat Sep 22 said:


> 3) I never asked Jackull how he went about writing his cue, because I know pretty much everything that is happening in that cue.



Aeneas - base on your post, it looks like you are pretty happy with your level of expertise. So why even bother post in this little eis section. Because you are Curious? Intrigue? Confuse? Or wanna add a different knowledge or musical approach on top of your own expertise? How about sharing your own expertise(music sample or score) on a different thread so all of us can benefit from it. "musicians helping musicians" not the other way...

Let's not ruin Leo's thread so he can read on any updates/replies to his post. 



-jacULL


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## Leandro Gardini (Sep 22, 2007)

aeneas @ Sat Sep 22 said:


> 3) I never asked Jackull how he went about writing his cue, because I know pretty much everything that is happening in that cue.


Would you mind telling me what going on in this cue???As far as I could realise you are against secrets...so, please, I´d love to know the technique!!!


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## aeneas (Sep 22, 2007)

leogardini @ Sat 22 Sep said:


> Would you mind telling me what going on in this cue???As far as I could realise you are against secrets...so, please, I´d love to know the technique!!!


Are you saying that you are unable to take that simple cue down on paper, and you want me to do that for you? Also, to provide you with a rhythmic, harmonic, formal, etc. analysis of it? That was precisely my point: To do all that, you do not need anybody. You (and everybody) are probably able to do that by yourself. Even if you do not know musical notation, you can midi-play it or mouse-write it in a sequencer piano-roll. I just takes time. Less and less time. Speed is coming with practice. Why don't YOU try to take that cue down? That is what I was talking about: DIY - do it yourself. How about this DIY "system", quite new, huh?  If you tried to take that cue down, but couldn't do it no matter what - then I very much doubt that any system on earth will make you focus more sharply and will make you hear better. IME, it is all a matter of personal practice, nothing as fussy as theoretical rules and techniques.


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## rJames (Sep 22, 2007)

aeneas, 

By analyzing Jackull's cue, you could see WHAT he is doing but you wouldn't necessarily see WHY he was doing it.

I can't speak for anyone else. For me, EIS is all about the WHY. That's why it helps me analyze great scores.


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## aeneas (Sep 22, 2007)

rJames @ Sat 22 Sep said:


> aeneas,
> 
> By analyzing Jackull's cue, you could see WHAT he is doing but you wouldn't necessarily see WHY he was doing it.
> 
> I can't speak for anyone else. For me, EIS is all about the WHY. That's why it helps me analyze great scores.


If EIS can tell me WHY all dead composers have use THOSE notes instead of other ones, THOSE rhythms instead of other rhythms - then EIS really IS the Holy Grail.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Sep 22, 2007)

Aeneas, sorry, you're just a troll (o) 

I think you get a kick out of stiring things up.
With very little effort you could see what people mean in their discussions but you choose to turn it into an argument for argument's sake.

I'm done with you. Have a happy life =o


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## rJames (Sep 22, 2007)

Maybe a tad of hyperbole in that statement, Aeneas.

But, yes, EIS can illuminate (not describe exactly) why any composer chose a set of notes over another set of notes.

But I've said it before, probably in this thread, EIS does not try to teach rhythm.

IMHO rhythm is a part of style. EIS illuminates the waveforms and their interaction. not the rhythms.


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## Leandro Gardini (Sep 22, 2007)

aeneas @ Sat Sep 22 said:


> leogardini @ Sat 22 Sep said:
> 
> 
> > Would you mind telling me what going on in this cue???As far as I could realise you are against secrets...so, please, I´d love to know the technique!!!
> ...


You are smart, and found a good way get to away from my question...but the fact is that I never asked you to do any score for me neither analisys, I asked a quick explanation of what you think it´s going on but you were unable reply what you say is a easy answer...so, to me, we stay in the same place, because you say you know much but none of us don´t know what is this much!!!
I keep my question, but I´l understnad that you don´t know what you are talking about if it not answered...and please, don´t come to me saying that you have nothing to prove...you are telling to much, but so far, I haven´t seen any valuable reason in your opinions...again, let´s talk about music???Are you able???
I´m suspicious you are someone that I´ve been chating not long ago...would you also mind telling me who you are???Or are you going to keep another secret???


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## aeneas (Sep 22, 2007)

leogardini @ Sat 22 Sep said:


> I´m suspicious you are someone that I´ve been chating not long ago...would you also mind telling me who you are???Or are you going to keep another secret???


As I see, the personal side and personal attacks are more important to some people here than answering questions and discussing topics. So, to make you happy and to eliminate any "suspicion": I am anybody or anything you want me to be. As Patrick de Caumette did already stick the label, I am nothing but



Patrick de Caumette @ Sat 22 Sep said:


> just a troll (o)



Nice to talk to you, rjames. Too bad that EIS does not try to teach rhythm. IMO, rhythm is one of the most neglected part of music, and for me is far more important than notes. The use of dynamics is also extremely important, although highly neglected as well. Everybody is sticking with notes, while notes are the easiest part of music. Oh, sorry - please excuse a troll's rambling. (o)


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## Craig Sharmat (Sep 22, 2007)

The people on this forum who garner respect are people who prove their abilities.

Everyone here has posted stuff so there is a reference point. You in fact have not, so either you have stuff or will not be taken seriously in the future from most members stand points. We have seen people talk big here for years and then put up poor music.
If you have the balls...put up.

The other issue is most people taking a course do not have time for attending a university but want structed lessons. If you have a better alternative please tell.


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## Frederick Russ (Sep 22, 2007)

Actually I would love to hear one of your pieces Aeneus. No malintent here - I just find it interesting where composers creativity and ears lead them. You're welcome to post one or more at our Member's Compostion section. See you there.


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## Craig Sharmat (Sep 22, 2007)

[quote="
Nice to talk to you, rjames. Too bad that EIS does not try to teach rhythm. IMO, rhythm is one of the most neglected part of music, and for me is far more important than notes. The use of dynamics is also extremely important, although highly neglected as well. Everybody is sticking with notes, while notes are the easiest part of music. Oh, sorry - please excuse a troll's rambling. (o)[/quote]

and you would know EIS does not teach rhythm...how?


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## aeneas (Sep 22, 2007)

Craig Sharmat @ Sat 22 Sep said:


> The people on this forum who garner respect are people who prove their abilities.
> 
> Everyone here has posted stuff so there is a reference point. You in fact have not, so either you have stuff or will not be taken seriously in the future from most members stand points. We have seen people talk big here for years and then put up poor music.
> If you have the balls...put up.
> ...


Thanks for the lesson, Craig. Let me recap, in order to make sure that I have got it right:

- Unless one proves musical abilities, what he/she says matters very little on this board.

- The degree of personal respect one gets on this board is directly proportional with how much other people happen to like his/her pieces.

- Until one posts a piece, one is not taken seriously.

- History shows that people "talking big" (whatever might that mean) have put up "poor music" (whatever might THAT mean).

- Unless one doesn't put up music, he/she has no balls.

- University lessons are good.

- In the lack of university lessons, structured lessons are good too.

- Structured lessons are better than no lessons.

- The DIY alternative does not count much as an alternative, when compared to university lessons and with structured lessons.

Is that correct?

Just an observation: history tells many stories about successful composers who took the DIY path, and comparably fewer stories about composers who needed university programs and "learning systems". Which seems to prove that DIY is a better "system" than the other two "systems".

EDIT - 
Craig,
"EIS does not try to teach rhythm" was a quote, I was quoting the person I was talking to - that is why I didn't credit him for that quote.


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## rJames (Sep 22, 2007)

I think Leo has his answers from this thread so I don't feel so bad having this converstion with Aeneas and my other friends here.

Aeneas, you tend to use language to boil things down to a quip. What on earth does, "Everybody is sticking with notes, while notes are the easiest part of music.," mean?

I've been continuing the conversation because we had a short interchange at the top where I jokingly talked about arguing as fun. I meant my points there but don't need anyone to take me too seriously. I have opinions. They're just my opinions.

No one cares if you are convinced that EIS is an important study. Or whether or not "notes" are important in the music that you make.

Rhythm is vitally important. Yes, so are dynamics but I'm not sure why you think that someone here doesn't care about dynamics.

Although, "Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star," is pretty even sung with the worst of dynamics.

You make things a bit too black and white, like whether or not EIS can tell us WHY all composers through all time chose the notes they did when they wrote great music.

Rhythm, IMHO, defines style...salsa, metal, baroque,...sure there are many rhythms in these styles...but I am generalizing.

You play a certain rhythm and everybody gets up and joins the conga line...that's style.

EIS is "theoretically" devoid of style. Although in practice, there is some by osmosis (listening to the particular examples that Spud uses in the books.)

Craig has just reminded me that there is some study of rhythm in the course.

Yes, there is some. But it is not the focus (IMHO)

Craig is a graduate, I am a student. He knows more than me about it.

The thing I love MOST about EIS (this is just ME) is that it is devoid of style. I don't care what Mozart wrote. I wanted to learn how to explore music. EIS has taught me that.

It frees me to write what I want to write when I do the exercises. 

Just for clarification. Aeneas got the idea that EIS does not teach rhythm from me. 

I am studying style currently. By listening to what people are selling.

Spud could never have taught me that unless he could foretell the future.

Spud taught me how to understand what is happening in anything I listen to. That's the magic and the miracle.

I've learned to hear rhythm by writing lessons weekly for 3 years. Always trying to write something that sounds like music.


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## Tod (Sep 22, 2007)

aeneas @ Sat Sep 22 said:


> If EIS can tell me WHY all dead composers have use THOSE notes instead of other ones, THOSE rhythms instead of other rhythms - then EIS really IS the Holy Grail.


Hehe, if all you want to know is what Dead Composers do then you are in the wrong place. I think that everybody in VI-Control is alive, even an old fart like me. =o


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## aeneas (Sep 22, 2007)

rJames @ Sat 22 Sep said:


> Rhythm, IMHO, defines style...salsa, metal, baroque,...sure there are many rhythms in these styles...


By rhythm I did not mean constant rhythm, as in rock'n'roll.  By studying the rhythm I mean focusing on the interplay of rhythmic motifs while disregarding the pitches. Try to analyze the rhythms in (say) Stravinsky's Petrushka, and you will see what I mean.


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## rJames (Sep 22, 2007)

OK, fine, so its a brawl.

I want to finish my part by saying that everyone has a right to an opinion. And the right to express it.

This has become a debate in the worst way, where words are stripped of their meaning and spewed back and forth.

Sounds a bit like a discussion between Ann Coulter and James Carville.


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## Craig Sharmat (Sep 22, 2007)

> Thanks for the lesson, Craig. Let me recap, in order to make sure that I have got it right:
> 
> - Unless one proves musical abilities, what he/she says matters very little on this board.
> 
> ...


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## aeneas (Sep 22, 2007)

Craig Sharmat @ Sat 22 Sep said:


> - History shows that people "talking big" (whatever might that mean) have put up "poor music" (whatever might THAT mean).
> 
> This has happenned as I mentioned
> 
> ...


So you like to presume about balls and gender. Probably you consider them important in a discussion about music on internet.

Besides, what do you mean by "poor music"? The music that you don't like?


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## Craig Sharmat (Sep 22, 2007)

first on the respect thing you have not earned mine.

2nd I have 2 shows to finish by monday, you probably don't...

so i am out of here...have fun and feel secure in knowing you are right!


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## Jackull (Sep 22, 2007)

> Hehe, if all you want to know is what Dead Composers do then you are in the wrong place. I think that everybody in VI-Control is alive, even an old fart like me.



Ey Tod - if you're an old fart, who is the 'ghost note' here? :D  :D  :mrgreen:  . I won't forget that one... good to see you back here again... hehehee still ROFL

-jackULL


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## aeneas (Sep 22, 2007)

Craig Sharmat @ Sat 22 Sep said:


> first on the respect thing you have not earned mine.
> 
> 2nd I have 2 shows to finish by monday, you probably don't...
> 
> so i am out of here...have fun and feel secure in knowing you are right!


1) And why would that be important for *you* to respect *me*? Who are those *you* and *me*? :wink: 

2) What makes you presume that I probably don't? Maybe I am preparing my gigs faster than you do. You actually know nothing about me and my gigs, so please leave personal issues out.

3) I do have fun, thank you. Also, I feel very secure knowing that no one (not even me  ) is "right".

So, I have to assume that "poor music" is the music that you don't like. I thought so. o-[][]-o


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## Craig Sharmat (Sep 22, 2007)

o-[][]-o


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## Patrick de Caumette (Sep 22, 2007)

aeneas @ Sat Sep 22 said:


> Everybody is sticking with notes, while notes are the easiest part of music.



Now I definitely know you are a troll... :twisted:


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## aeneas (Sep 22, 2007)

Patrick de Caumette @ Sat 22 Sep said:


> aeneas @ Sat Sep 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Everybody is sticking with notes, while notes are the easiest part of music.
> ...


To quote Craig, "have fun and feel secure in knowing you are right!"  

Just to add a shadow of a doubt, as we trolls like to do in Trollland: Have you ever considered how much you know about notes comparing to how much you know about rhythms and dynamics? All that teachers are talking about is: notes, notes, and notes. Notes are the easiest part, indeed, when compared to the complexity of rhythms and dynamics. Look into your EIS books and see how much Spud talks about rhythms and dynamics, comparing to how much he talks about notes. I'd make a bet: maybe 10%? :roll: 

Notes, voice leading, harmony, counterpoint - all that is kindergarten. The real art of composing starts beyond notes, and it has everything to do with the clever use of rhythms, articulations, timbres, and dynamics. Notes are only letters. Stick with them if you like, but poetry is done with something far beyond letters. 
o/~


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## midphase (Sep 22, 2007)

I think some of the confusion arose from not really being clear on what Leo was asking...so I took it upon myself to actually type in wikipedia (man....you guys make me sweat!) and found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_practice_period

Anyhoo....yes, EIS enables you to do that...no there aren't many examples of students writing like that because....hmmmm...there aren't many examples of ANYONE writing like that anymore!

Look around you....everyone wants to sound like Zimmer and Elfman it seems!

Anyway....if your primary interests lie with become the next Baroque or Classical or Romantic composer, EIS is probably not what you're looking for. Study composers from that time period, listen to tons of music from that time period...and steal like mad! Don't worry....it's all public domain!


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## Jackull (Sep 23, 2007)

> Notes, voice leading, harmony, counterpoint - all that is kindergarten. The real art of composing starts beyond notes, and it has everything to do with the clever use of rhythms, articulations, timbres, and dynamics. Notes are only letters. Stick with them if you like, but poetry is done with something far beyond letters.



Since you compare that notes are only letters & a poetry is beyond letters, then all your letters, words, sentences & paragraphs are far from your own music, rhythms & notes unless it speaks by itself, right?. So please, how about share your music with us , something beyond your own letters. 

You have been replying to all the posts here very smartly but a simple music that speaks louder than your letters seems very difficult for you. I'm sure you have it in your files of shows, gigs & library of music. Shall we just think that you are only good at letters? BTW, what exactly is a troll? Perhaps you can elaborate that too?


-jackULL


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## Leandro Gardini (Sep 23, 2007)

aeneas @ Sat Sep 22 said:


> leogardini @ Sat 22 Sep said:
> 
> 
> > I´m suspicious you are someone that I´ve been chating not long ago...would you also mind telling me who you are???Or are you going to keep another secret???
> ...


Please sir, don´t take my time to reply unuseful statements like yours...there´s no personal attack here...I asked what you see in the Jackull´s piece and you couldn´t answer...than I asked who you are and you didn´t answer...than people asked for your music and you didn´t answer...your attitude is fine because I´m not curious of any of this answers simply because I´m more than sure about them!!!


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## Craig Sharmat (Sep 23, 2007)

aeneas

I have had complaints about your behavior and your interpeting of others posts (myself included).

You are welcome to discuss music here but if I find the tone of your posts to be antagonistic you will be put in a the penalty box where you can think if you want to be a contributing member. 

If you find this harsh, so be it but consider this...

even Stavinsky had help and no one here professes at being anywhere near his level. If one can DIY and accomplish the goals one sets out to do then by all means that is what one should do. Not everyone is capable of this. If I had not taken EIS it would have taken me years longer to look at a score and understand it (I still might not have been able to). EIS gave me these tools. Now I can DIY since I have a foundation of understanding.


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## Leandro Gardini (Sep 23, 2007)

midphase @ Sat Sep 22 said:


> I think some of the confusion arose from not really being clear on what Leo was asking...so I took it upon myself to actually type in wikipedia (man....you guys make me sweat!) and found this:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_practice_period
> 
> ...


Midphase, I guess I´ve been clear of what I was looking for in my last posts (not to aeneas  )...this is not exactly writing like them, as I told before...no one want to sound like Bach or Beethoven today...but it´s a matter of writing in the old stile with a modern point of view!!!
As an example of a composer you mention - Hans Zimmer in his Nannibal soundtrack has used a some old stiles...take a time to listen to Virtue track 8, The Burning Heart track 10 there you find barroque stile of hamony and voice leading with a modern orchestration - in To Every Captive Soul track 11 you find barroque hamony and romantic voice leading with a moderns orchestration!!!
I hope if you listen to this music you understand what I´ve been looking for!!!


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## Craig Sharmat (Sep 23, 2007)

Leo can you look at scores? If you do, do you have a problem understanding what is going on? (no shame in that btw).


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## Leandro Gardini (Sep 23, 2007)

Craig Sharmat @ Sun Sep 23 said:


> Leo can you look at scores? If you do, do you have a problem understanding what is going on? (no shame in that btw).


I do it almost everyday whenever I can...and always before staritng a new piece  !!!


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## Leandro Gardini (Sep 23, 2007)

Craig Sharmat @ Sun Sep 23 said:


> so if you look at scores and understand them, what else are you looking for?


Improvement!!!


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## aeneas (Sep 23, 2007)

leogardini @ Sun 23 Sep said:


> I asked what you see in the Jackull´s piece and you couldn´t answer...
> 
> than I asked who you are and you didn´t answer...
> 
> ...


1) As I said, it is not important what I see there, but what YOU see there. 
But, since you believe that I "couldn't answer" - here is something quick, in a common language: Jackull's cue (Total Distance) starts with a play with Cm and Bm in broken-chords, then it goes playing with Dm and C#m, then there's the F and E chords mixed on brass turning into a mixture of Ab and Em, over which the flute plays a broken-chord combination of Bm and Eb as a transition to an Em mixed with Ebm on strings, etc. That is not Total Dissonance, it is more of a basic exercise in polytonality, using mainly pairs of overimposed "neighbor" chords. Now don't ask me for note-details, and make no mistake that I "could" provide a full score of that cue (it's just that I hate non-paid gigs.  ). My only question was about the synth used towards the end, and Jackull kindly answered that.

2) Who I am has the least importance in an internet discussion. I like to leave aside any personal issues in a theoretical discussions. It seems hard for some people - I have observed that in the lack of rational arguments the discussion turns personal. I try to avoid that.

3) I only wanted to discuss these theoretical issues and to give you a few advices coming from my own experience. There is plenty of music that illustrates the points that I was considering. Besides, let ME decide in which context I want to expose my pieces. Given the hostility around, plus considering how easy is to put down ANY piece of music, I decided that that was not the best context.

4) Let me have some doubts that you knew the answers that you said you are "more than sure" about.  



Craig Sharmat @ Sun 23 Sep said:


> so if you look at scores and understand them, what else are you looking for?


Maybe, just maybe - understanding notes, voice leading, harmony, counterpoint, and all this note-related stuff - maybe that tells nothing important about a piece of music? That was my main point: music is beyond notes. To understand music, one needs to forget notes and to consider more important things like the variety and the interplay of rhythms, dynamics, articulations, and timbres. Notes are easy, and irrelevant.


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## Craig Sharmat (Sep 23, 2007)

Jackulls' piece while nice is just the tip of the iceberg of the theory. since you took the time to do an analysis let me give some more details. These structures are not minor or major structures though of course in this context they sound like it. the theory actually cuts to intervals. So a major chord is made up of a major 3rd and a minor 3rd but the structure does not need to stop. there you could create structure C-E-G-B-D-F#-A which continues the same patteren. Anyway you take a major chord structure an octave up and shift down a minor 2nd and superimpose the two. This can be done of course with minor,diminished,whole tone structures. there are other shifts available also. Also structures in 4ths can be used and you can create other structures. these of course can have inversions,move in interval shifts together or keep moving up intervals together. this theory is really only 2 lessons long not a particulary long study. There is no secrecy here, it is just hard to explain to people a theory which explains E1 as minor 2nd and so on but it works. There are possibilites in the course which have assisted in my writing that would not have been available.

So lets discuss Leo, he looks at scores, studys books on his own and still feels like he needs more knowledge or he just can't figure certain things out. What now? If there is a course which allows him to attain new sounds and understanding then why not. Say one has never done Voice Leading. Music is not Voice Leading per say but if another technique is available we can apply to our writing if we choose, why not experiment with it? Options are tools and if we are not aware of these options we can not use them. If we are presented with them we can decide if they work for us. If they do we use it, if not it should be discarded. It was said by Spud that every student uses about 10 % of the course, but often it is a different 10%. It is about having musical choices. Choices of course can be found in scores and any person who does not study scores misses out on a wealth of information and most important application.


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## Thonex (Sep 23, 2007)

I think aeneas is talking out his aeneas :lol: :lol: :lol: 

I'm killing me!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: 



Sorry.... couldn't resist.


T


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## Craig Sharmat (Sep 23, 2007)

very nice :roll:


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## aeneas (Sep 23, 2007)

Craig Sharmat @ Sun 23 Sep said:


> Jackulls' piece while nice is just the tip of the iceberg of the theory. since you took the time to do an analysis let me give some more details. These structures are not minor or major structures though of course in this context they sound like it. the theory actually cuts to intervals. So a major chord is made up of a major 3rd and a minor 3rd but the structure does not need to stop. there you could create structure C-E-G-B-D-F#-A which continues the same patteren. Anyway you take a major chord structure an octave up and shift down a minor 2nd and superimpose the two. This can be done of course with minor,diminished,whole tone structures. there are other shifts available also. Also structures in 4ths can be used and you can create other structures. these of course can have inversions,move in interval shifts together or keep moving up intervals together. this theory is really only 2 lessons long not a particulary long study. There is no secrecy here, it is just hard to explain to people a theory which explains E1 as minor 2nd and so on but it works. There are possibilites in the course which have assisted in my writing that would not have been available.
> 
> So lets discuss Leo, he looks at scores, studys books on his own and still feels like he needs more knowledge or he just can't figure certain things out. What now? If there is a course which allows him to attain new sounds and understanding then why not. Say one has never done Voice Leading. Music is not Voice Leading per say but if another technique is available we can apply to our writing if we choose, why not experiment with it? Options are tools and if we are not aware of these options we can not use them. If we are presented with them we can decide if they work for us. If they do we use it, if not it should be discarded. It was said by Spud that every student uses about 10 % of the course, but often it is a different 10%. It is about having musical choices. Choices of course can be found in scores and any person who does not study scores misses out on a wealth of information and most important application.


Craig, Thanks for taking the time to explain, I appreciate! Options and choices are important, and it's nice that EIS is offering them. It is just that I am sick and tired of notes, notes, notes. I was expecting EIS to offer more about the important things in music that I mentioned.


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## Craig Sharmat (Sep 23, 2007)

NP

as mentioned if you are in LA I can show you the books. there is more to the course than notes but it is a primary focus.


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## Leandro Gardini (Sep 24, 2007)

Good to know that all these complaints will stop now (I hope :| )...I got the answer I was looking for when I open this thread and I feel satified for that!!!
Regarding the Jackull´s piece I had heard it only once before opening this thread...I think it´s a very good composition but this is not the sound I´m looking for in my music now...and you cannot criticise my current choice 8) !!!
Anyway, I think I don´t need to explain more what I was talking about!!!


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## linwood (Sep 24, 2007)

I'm really happy to be taking the course. I'm almost through book 7 and can't wait for 8. It's a nice journey and a fantastic hang with db every week that I really look forward to. It's kind of funny to come here today and see people dis the course and challenge it and the members here. I feel about it the same way Bennie does in this interview....but that's just me and I'm just a bottom feeder jingle hack.

AAJ: How did you come to study with Lyle Spud Murphy?

BM: I was introduced by one of my friends, a fellow Buddhist. He was studying composition and orchestration with Murphy, and kept telling me about him. Then I discovered the National Endowment for the Arts, and that they have a program that they will give you a grant to study privately with somebody if it's related to jazz or composition. I decided I wanted to study composition and orchestration with Spud Murphy. He was totally my mentor, giving me great information, showing me his system and how to utilize it. Taking me through, not only his written examples, but examples of his students. That connection with Spud Murphy changed my entire musical thinking forever.

AAJ: What year was that?

BM: 1978, or a little earlier. By then I was doing things I never thought I could do musically as a result of studying with him, and exploring his system. Getting that instant feedback from him was the most valuable thing. That's something that's missing today from a lot of young musicians, they don't get the feedback from guys older than they are, who've already accomplished a certain amount.

Consequently, they don't know what they're doing. They think they can do no wrong, and that they know everything. The longer you study music you find you know very little. Spud opened up the infinite possibilities of sound. His whole theory was based on the overtone series, which is a natural phenomenon occurring in nature, and in the world of physics. He not only guided me musically, he guided me spiritually as well. He didn't deal with style. That's not what he was interested in. His whole thing was showing me how to manipulate sound and how things can work, and what works best in certain situations, and what doesn't. He's a giant and I'm determined his memory will never be lost. That's why I dedicated my CD to him. Wherever I go, he goes.


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## rJames (Sep 24, 2007)

Thank you Linwood. It is amazing how many EIS students feel that way! (me too)


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## midphase (Sep 26, 2007)

Are you sure it's not Bernie Mac?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Mac


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## linwood (Sep 28, 2007)

Here another example of an eis pro at work. How 'bout that E4 stuff goin' on in this one....like in the intro and comin' out of Wayne's solo, for example. Lot's of good practical compin' goin' on here.

http://verve.edgeboss.net/wmedia/verve/ ... _spark.wax


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## Frederick Russ (Sep 29, 2007)

Very cool example of E4 done smoothly and seamlessly by a true pro. Thanks for sharing - always a pleasure to hear Herbie in action.


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