# Making The Commercial Forum For Developer Posts And Read Only



## synthpunk (Sep 29, 2015)

Are you In Favor of The Commercial Forum being for Developers posts and read only with conversations being shifted to the Sample Talk forum ?


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## creativeforge (Sep 29, 2015)

It would basically be a "read-only" forum, for announcements, not conversations. The rest of the forum provides ample room for that I believe. This will allow developers to share their news more normally I think, in the form of announcements - from them, to us. They just want to announce something, we will be listening. No need to have dozens of rabbit trails after that...


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## trumpoz (Sep 29, 2015)

I'd be happy for the announcements forum to be read only - let the sample talk be the place for discussion etc.


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## d.healey (Sep 29, 2015)

I think this would be a good thing and it would be good if it was possible to link to a related sample talk thread, where applicable (I suppose the developer could add a link in their commercial announcements post).

Edit: Although not sure where we'd talk about non-sample products


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## erica-grace (Sep 29, 2015)

NO! 

Conversations should NEVER be disallowed here. Of course, mods could and should move conversations (or parts of) to Sample Talk if they get out of hand - like the SF thread here did.

Please continue to allow respectful dialogue here.


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## atw (Sep 29, 2015)

We shouldn't only protect the developers "position", we should also protect the customers/users "position". Of course developers pay for advertising, but on the other hand it's also VI-Control's user base, in which developers are interested in. Not only but i guess mostly. There are customers/potential customers and therefore also money!


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## creativeforge (Sep 29, 2015)

atw said:


> We shouldn't only protect the developers "position", we should also protect the customers/users "position".



And this will do this exactly.


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## pderbidge (Sep 29, 2015)

Hard for me to vote because I think this vote, in this case, should be up to the developers since they are the ones paying for that space. There can be an advantage to having people post there (ability to have your ad bumped to the top, etc...) and I wouldn't want to take that away from the developers if they preferred to keep it that way. I am by no means someone in favor of censoring opinions,however when it comes to the commercial announcements, I say "let them have their time to shine"- I don't see that as a bad thing. Sample Talk is where the more open and candid conversations can and should happen. IT's a shame that some people can't see the logic in that. Would I be opposed to the Commercial Announcements being locked? No, just as long as there is a thread, which there is (Sample Talk), where the products can be discussed openly.


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## MA-Simon (Sep 29, 2015)

No. Because I don't want to open up a new topic everytime I might have a question. That would be silly.

Really, what is the difference if those discussions are in sample talk or in the announcements? Thats mostly in our heads.


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## Saxer (Sep 29, 2015)

i also want the 'can't wait'-posts for new libraries! hype is part of the fun!


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## Mike Greene (Sep 29, 2015)

This is a bad idea. No developer wants to make a commercial announcement post, then watch their announcement die of loneliness. It makes paying for the privilege almost worthless.

There are benefits to keeping things as is and letting everyone post in CA threads. For one, it keeps the exciting announcements towards the top. If Spitfire or AudioBro or whoever releases some library that's inspiring 20 pages of posts, then there must be something pretty cool going on, so don't you want that thread near the top, as opposed to buried in the archives from three weeks ago when it was announced? I sure do.

Otherwise, it's just the _newest_ announcements at the top. If members are not allowed to chime in, then the threads that get action will only be ones where the developer spams his own thread. So if somebody releases a K-Pop soundbank for Garage Band, and if he has lots of free time on his hands, he can keep posting every few hours, keeping his thread right at the top. While a Spitfire thread drifts into the archives.

Personally, I don't see that we've been having so much trouble with the Commercial Announcements section where we need to make sweeping changes. Certainly there have been a few missteps here and there, but I'll bet if you asked Paul and Christian whether they'd want to stop allowing people to post in their threads, they'd say hell no.

Seems to me this is like amputating an arm to cure a hangnail.


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## tonaliszt (Sep 29, 2015)

Echoing what mike Greene said, developers posts will disappears soon after they are posted (around 12 hours to a day), as imho people only really read what shows up on the main page.
I think just a friendly reminder not to compare libraries from different developers in the commercial forum is appropriate (if that is what this is all about). If someone happens to say something not appropriate for commercial announcements about a library, why cant the mods just move their posts to sample talk?


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## tack (Sep 29, 2015)

It would be interesting to poll users and developers separately and see if there's difference in the opinion.

Making the commercial announcements forum readonly effectively turns it into forum of ads, to be ignored by 90% of the users in addition to all the other banner ads. User discussion is what makes those threads worth reading. I can tell you that even though I don't use ad block on this site, my brain is extremely effective at filtering out the banner ads. But the commercial announcements forum I actually read _because_ of the activity and input from the community.

And when the developer has the ability to weave responses and other product updates into the conversation, surely this is a much more worthwhile vehicle for advertising than if it were readonly?


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## sin(x) (Sep 29, 2015)

I'm all for either removing discussions entirely, or letting people talk about whatever they want. Inviting them to talk, then slapping them around when they dare to talk off-brand, is the definition of trying to have your cake and eat it too.


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## synthpunk (Sep 29, 2015)

Certainly some valid points here for No as well. The only other idea I can think of is keeping Commercial Announcements open but tightening the moderation on that forum and when something comes along that is off topic it gets deleted and the poster is politely reminded of Commercial Announcements policy ? Multiple offenses can be interpreted with harsher circumstances.


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## gyprock (Sep 29, 2015)

I think that discussion should be allowed but developers need to put some substance into their announcements. Much of the debate occurs when there isn't sufficient information given. Personally the teaser style "new dawn" announcement (without information backup) or the information trickle releases make me to want to puke. I used to find them entertaining but not any more. I think it's just an excuse for a developer to announce something before it's ready so that customers might hold off spending on a competitor's product that they had already researched. We want to feel that we've made the right decision on a spend. If we are tempted with some future "must have" product we go into a cycle of purchase anxiety and then the need for information creates a discussion furor. It's the oldest marketing trick in the book. I receive emails from quite a few developers spruiking their latest and greatest and most of these emails get deleted. However, there are some developers that are slower and more methodical on their release cycle and emails from those are the ones that get read.


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## ryanstrong (Sep 29, 2015)

I feel like people think that if discussions leave Commercial Announcements they aren't allowed to discuss the new product... hello... Sample Talk.

If Joe Sampling Co. posts a Commercial Announcement about New Epic Library and discussion is locked and I want to have a "free for all" discussion about it I would create a thread in Sample Talk about New Epic Library, so I can compare it to another developer's epic library.

What's the point of a heavily moderated Commercial Announcement when developer's don't want to address "customer service" issues, they don't want criticism, they don't want product comparisons... wth else is there to say other then pats on backs?


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## ryanstrong (Sep 29, 2015)

Maybe there's a way to make Commercial Announcements kind of like Reddit... Upvotes or Downvotes and whatever is trending stays to the top.

OR... stop moderating and if Developers need a quiet place to announce that's what all the banner ads are for right?


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## jacobthestupendous (Sep 29, 2015)

I don't think it's my place to vote, but I think that the discussions elevate this section of the forum far beyond the mere advertising section it would surely become. Right now this is one of two or three sections I check every time I visit VI-C; if the discussions leave, that'll almost certainly change. 

Also, I agree that the ability to discuss generally benefits developers and users by keeping exciting libraries at the top of the list. 

I'd be in favor of more prevalent reminders of the ground rules coupled with more active moderation. We're mostly grown ups here.


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## creativeforge (Sep 29, 2015)

[soapbox]

OK, let me try it this way: 

1- Is there an awareness that there is a problem *right now*? It's not hypothetical and it's been affecting various members, often negatively. 

2- The present format is not working, people had years to police themselves and are not doing it. So we need a solution because everybody matters. 

3- So far, much of the voices that chime in "against" allowing developers to have their own space, don't seem to have a community-oriented view of things. This move would seek to correct a faulty situation. Yes, it means a bit of change, and may require a bit of adaptation. Other music forums give space to product developers, and discussions are disabled. There is a reason for this, and it's working very well. 

4- Hypothetically - Each developer would have their own thread and make their announcements there. No cross-posting from another developer. 

5- Discussions would still be conducted elsewhere as usual, you just lose one (1) forum, which is being restored to its original purpose, so that the commercial announcements forum doesn't become frustratingly cluttered, a breeding ground for volatile commenting that hijacks the purpose of an Announcement forum. 

Compare this:

A) Attacks, disparaging comments, attempting to conduct a public investigation to publicly debunk, expose, or bash a product or a developer to indulge in "payback" toward these because we're unhappy with them (or are not able to use to their full potential)

- vs - 

B) Reviewing a product and stating our likes and dislikes, fairly comparing products without personal attacks or insults, with a view to help both members and developers, etc. 

I think the simple solutions presented are all very reasonable, and I fail to see how this is going to have a huge negative impact (unless people purposely refuse to see both sides of the issue). Come on guys, let's work together on this? People are more eager to help if they don't get slammed left and right, and having a respectful conversation can solve so much more than isolated problems we may have individually: it build a better community where people want to invest of themselves even if they are very busy..

Cheers,

Andre

[/soapbox]


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## tack (Sep 29, 2015)

creativeforge said:


> So far, much of the voices that chime in "against" allowing developers to have their own space, don't seem to have a community-oriented view of things.


The opinion I've been voicing actually _has_ been from the perspective of developers. I happen to think making the Commercial Announcements forum readonly would substantially affect the visibility and interest in those announcements. But if developers are actually for this, then I say go for it because the interesting discussion will naturally congeal in SAMPLE talk.

Developers and vendors will just need to realize that all those posts getting bumped in the latest posts pages will be discussion about their product_s without_ topic titles like "Deep sampled epic whoopee cushion monsterstacattos. 30% off! Offer ends October 1!" Instead the topics will be more like "Whoopie cushion monsterstacattos not epic enough -- any alternatives?"


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## creativeforge (Sep 29, 2015)

ryanstrong said:


> What's the point of a heavily moderated Commercial Announcement when developer's don't want to address "customer service" issues, they don't want criticism, they don't want product comparisons... wth else is there to say other then pats on backs?



Well, that's not entirely correct, Ryan. It's not really about being overly-protective of developers, sheltering them from criticism, or difficult questions, etc. But moving the conversation to somewhere else. It depends on people if they want to "boycott" the CA forum in "retaliation" for not having access to it to comment. But that would be a grave mistake imho. There should be no "us vs them." It's their forum too, and most will engage with their clients. 

If there can be no discussion on the Commercial Announcement, there certainly continues to be elsewhere, in every other section of the forum. But having the CA be single-purpose is certainly a first step toward an ideal solution and better use of the threads.


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## prodigalson (Sep 29, 2015)

Free speech is not an unequivocal right. It comes with certain responsibilities. 

So the CA section should stay the same, users should respect developers and try to play by the rules, moderators should do just that: "moderate" and when someone gets justly warned or reprimanded they should just accept it as part of the deal in keeping CA open and not act like the sky is falling or that they need to call the ACLU.


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## creativeforge (Sep 29, 2015)

tack said:


> It would be interesting to poll users and developers separately and see if there's difference in the opinion.



^ THIS.


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## creativeforge (Sep 29, 2015)

prodigalson said:


> Free speech is not an unequivocal right. It comes with certain responsibilities.
> 
> So the CA section should stay the same, users should respect developers and try to play by the rules, moderators should do just that: "moderate" and when someone gets justly warned or reprimanded they should just accept it as part of the deal in keeping CA open and not act like the sky is falling or that they need to call the ACLU.



Yes, it would be nice... but I think it's coming up again for that exact reason: lack of following rules, people hurt, publicly shamed, etc. 

This is a situation that has festering long enough (unhealthy) and now coming home to roost, so something is being considered to remedy. I think that's as simple as that. 

But as a few people suggested, it would be good to hear from the developers themselves.


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## Andrew Aversa (Sep 29, 2015)

CA is fine as is, for all the reasons Mike stated. We've been posting here for years with no problems. A popular VI thread correlates nicely with increased attention and, of course, sales.


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## creativeforge (Sep 29, 2015)

I do not understand how ignoring the conflicts serves the greater good. It's like saying there's an issue but let's not try to fix it? Isn't that what creates the most discontent on the forums, when there is a perception of refusal to consider bringing improvement...


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## gregjazz (Sep 29, 2015)

As long as it's on topic, allowing discussions in commercial announcement threads is really important. For a prospective buyer, there are certain questions that could be brought up in the announcement thread. It's also a nice place for developers to answer those questions.

For off-topic discussions that might crop up in commercial announcement threads, it would be great if moderators could move that out to separate threads. That way the conversation could still continue, but just in its own dedicated thread.


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## Craig Sharmat (Sep 29, 2015)

3 developers have posted and prefer things to stay as they are...unless other developers chime in with a dissenting view things should stay as they are. I think it was valid to bring up the discussion but so far it seems things are fine as is.


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## ryanstrong (Sep 29, 2015)

creativeforge said:


> Well, that's not entirely correct, Ryan. It's not really about being overly-protective of developers, *sheltering* them from criticism, or difficult questions, etc. But *moving* the conversation to somewhere else.



I guess I see it differently. To me MOVING is SHELTERING. That's not bad, it just is what it is.

Commercial Announcements is a form of "advertorial". It's not straight advertising, that's what those ad banners are, but it's not straight "editorial" like Sample Talk. All of us see it for what it is and it becomes completely inefficient right now if one wants to speak freely about a new release, or a new subscription method, or a new redux or whatever... someone has to go and create a whole new thread in Sample Talk to speak their mind so that the Commercial Announcement advertising client doesn't have their advertorial tainted.

Personally if I was a developer I would be against this move because I believe any press is good press, and I say open the conversation to be just regularly moderated conversations with free reign to mention other products and developers etc.


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## creativeforge (Sep 29, 2015)

Frederick asked me to look into a solution. Because there is a problem. I guess very few people really grasp what's going on right now.

I also believe there were more than 50 developers here? I think 3 is very little to make it a strong support for the status quo. Which makes no logical sense to me.

The goal is to both encourage interaction, but also limit volatility on the Commercial Announcement.

So - HYPOTHETICALLY - what would happen if moderators are not aware of a crisis going on, and people are firing post after post landing them in personal attacks and even slander, and finally one moderator looks at it and happens to "feel" for the disgruntled user and start engaging to try and "defend" the member that has clearly gone overboard?

What if two moderators chime in and are not able to calm things down and the forum ends up becoming a target for threat of libel? These are possibilities one has to consider too.

Isn't there a way to create a Commercial Announcement in the CA forum, and also create a thread in SampleTALK open for discussion? That way it would be the choice of the developer to open a discussion to get feedback?

Any press is not always good press - considering there is a problem that needs addressing, inaction seems so not the way to go...

I'll stop now, I keep repeating myself.

Peace,

Andre


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## creativeforge (Sep 29, 2015)

One last thing I'd submit for your consideration, is that it's not unheard of that moderators get blamed for moving topics, as if it meant VI is becoming extreme. The status quo would require them to be even more vigilant and involved in "censoring"/moving posts. Having a static CA forum would actually give them a break in that area.


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## prodigalson (Sep 29, 2015)

That's why I'll repeat what i said. Users act like adults and play by the rules, accepting that CA is a special forum with heightened scrutiny with regards to free speech. Moderators moderate, aggressively if necessary. And the responsible party doesn't cry "censorship" every time a mod tries to cool things down. 

If developers just relaxed and didn't cry foul every time someone simply innocently mentions another product in a CA thread and if users had more respect for developers and acknowledged that there are certain conditions to posting in CA due to the fact that developers pay to post there then maybe we could all just get along.


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## creativeforge (Sep 29, 2015)

Hallelujah! and hopefully Kumbaya...


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## rJames (Sep 29, 2015)

creativeforge said:


> Isn't there a way to create a Commercial Announcement in the CA forum, and also create a thread in SampleTALK open for discussion? That way it would be the choice of the developer to open a discussion to get feedback?


So then you have one thread with a great demo and nobody to drool and fanboy over it. And another thread that does the same thing that you are trying to avoid (mixed criticism).
What is the advantage?
we don't go to the CA forum to learn about new products cause we already have an email or two with the same announcement.


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## uselessmind (Sep 29, 2015)

sin(x) said:


> I'm all for either removing discussions entirely, or letting people talk about whatever they want. Inviting them to talk, then slapping them around when they dare to talk off-brand, is the definition of trying to have your cake and eat it too.


+1
Though i prefer letting people talk freely since quite a few devs would be ok with that.
Or plaster huge reminders about the restrictions over that subforum and every post in it for unsuspecting readers.


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## creativeforge (Sep 29, 2015)

Well, developers would choose if they want a discussion on CA, by creating a thread in ST and putting a link on CA for those who want to go there. 

The idea is not to avoid mixed criticism - but to avoid mixing muscled convos with simple straight-forward announcements.


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## creativeforge (Sep 29, 2015)

Bigger government is the solution...? I vote to encourage people to be self-aware...


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## tokatila (Sep 29, 2015)

How about plan c), if software supports it of course.

Developer opens two threads "Product X - Announcement", "Product X - Discussion Thread".

Then the developer can decide if he wants to have conversation about the announcement or not (in Commercial forum). This doesn't prevent users talking about it in other forums of course.


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## creativeforge (Sep 29, 2015)

tokatila said:


> How about plan c), if software supports it of course.
> 
> Developer opens two threads "Product X - Announcement", "Product X - Discussion Thread".
> 
> Then the developer can decide if he wants to have conversation about the announcement or not (in Commercial forum). This doesn't prevent users talking about it in other forums of course.



And that is precisely what we're exploring, tokatila...  I think we should give it a serious try and re-evaluate after 30 days or something...


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## Sonokinetic BV (Sep 30, 2015)

We are against the Commercial section being locked. Like any forum, some moderation should be applied if the discussion goes wildly off topic.


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## atw (Sep 30, 2015)

If the developers gets their "read-only"-thread in Commercial Announcement then the second thread in SampleTalk should be a "have to" (not a "should" or "maybe").


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## paoling (Sep 30, 2015)

I'm not for closed read only commercial announcements. I prefer them as they are now.
But an idea, not mine to be fair, could be to give moderator privileges to the thread starter in the commercial announcements. Don't know if it's possible with the current forum software.

This is not my idea, but this could be useful to prevent any kind of problem and possibly direct the guilty of moderation mistakes from the forum moderators (who often struggle to find the right balance) to the developers. If a developer doesn't like criticism on his commercial announcement he can delete any posts he wants, at his own costs of being unrespectful and not allowing free speech.
In this way there could be less need for rules; there's a post about a Spitfire library where a user suggested other ways to spend the money with competitor's products. For me it could have been an interesting matter of debate; I can't think that our products are uncorrelated entities from what's already available. On another forum a user asked us how our instrument TimeDrops compares with Padshop. Even if someone could have decided to buy Padshop instead of our library, I think that it was a perfect legit question.

In any case if a developer dislikes something it in his commercial thread, it could be right to give him the freedom of deleting what it wants, exactly how it happens on proprietary forums (I sincerely don't understand who feel bad for the behavior of moderators on that kind of forums; those are just a kind of extended marketing strategy, not a public service)

This could be the best solution.


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## atw (Sep 30, 2015)

I have no solution, but here are some other points which are important for me and should be worth to be noted/considered:

In general (internet wide):
Often you can't ask questions, which are uncomfortable for some of them, on their website/forum and sometimes not even their support.

And there are also posts which hasn't necessarily to do with the truth, but fan boy behaviour. 

Then, sometimes there are some users (no devs, but act like devs) who just have the interest to spam/push a certain product by ignoring customers position.

It gives me (as a customer/user) a headscratcher and I want to be able to represent my position as customer and say something about it.


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## creativeforge (Sep 30, 2015)

Sonokinetic BV said:


> We are against the Commercial section being locked. Like any forum, some moderation should be applied if the discussion goes wildly off topic.



It would help to understand why you think this way, if you could?



paoling said:


> I'm not for closed read only commercial announcements. I prefer them as they are now.
> But an idea, not mine to be fair, could be to give moderator privileges to the thread starter in the commercial announcements. Don't know if it's possible with the current forum software.
> 
> This is not my idea, but this could be useful to prevent any kind of problem and possibly direct the guilty of moderation mistakes from the forum moderators (who often struggle to find the right balance) to the developers. If a developer doesn't like criticism on his commercial announcement he can delete any posts he wants, at his own costs of being unrespectful and not allowing free speech.
> ...



I like the idea of giving developers the responsibility of moderating their own threads. It would incentivize them to develop a good format of communication with members/clients. We can select what they would be allowed to do that best serves them... Interesting...


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## TheUnfinished (Sep 30, 2015)

This feels to me a bit of a case of "people aren't following the rules, so let's make up new rules that go even further but don't really address the problem, because all that's really required is for people to follow the existing rules". There's no guarantee people will follow new rules, if they're already failing to follow the existing ones, no?

Do we really need to be constantly reminded not to behave like children?

If you want to rant about a developer or compare their products to a competitor, just don't do it in their commercial thread. Simple.

If you want to ask questions about the new product or discuss it, then knock yourself out.

And you may then say "But developers don't answer our questions!". Well, maybe check whether you're repeatedly asking them in a whiny, narcissistic, entitled manner before wondering why it didn't get an answer.

With my developer head on, I'll never have a problem if someone has something negative to say about one of my products unless I feel it is factually inaccurate or questions my integrity. I don't think it's weird that I should have a problem with that. But, if someone has a problem with an error I've made or a feature they feel is missing, that's cool.

Also, if people are asking questions about my products outside my commercial thread, I'm probably going to miss them, because a) I don't live on VI Control, and b) I don't search for mentions of "The Unfinished" like some kind of preening weirdo.

Ultimately, if the CA forum was locked posts... not sure I'd bother. I like communicating with people. It's fun. As long as they're not dicks. But then the problem with dicks is that they often don't know they're dicks... because they're dicks.


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## Sonokinetic BV (Sep 30, 2015)

creativeforge said:


> It would help to understand why you think this way, if you could?



At the moment, the discussion around a products details are all contained within the one thread with clarifications and sales related information all easily to hand. Creating threads in Sample talk spreads the information across the site meaning a browser has to search through multiple sections to get a full picture. If someone asks the same question in Sample talk as one asked previously a week or a month ago the developer has to answer it again (and again ... and again) leading to duplicate threads where the context is lost.


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## atw (Sep 30, 2015)

TheUnfinished said:


> If you want to rant about a developer



No one wants to rant about a developer (at least not me), but if fan boy behaviour with wrong content appears, i want to say my opinion.
As i said before we shouldn't only protect the developers "position", we should also protect the customers/users "position".



TheUnfinished said:


> And you may then say "But developers don't answer our questions!". Well, maybe check whether you're repeatedly asking them in a whiny, narcissistic, entitled manner before wondering why it didn't get an answer.



Again it's the other way around. If you ask a question and the developer doesn't answer, then it's ignorant and unmannerd too.



TheUnfinished said:


> Do we really need to be constantly reminded not to behave like children?



In life i often saw children behave better than adults. Adults haven't alsways the best behaviour.
And to call people, who wants to defend their position as customer, dicks is unmannered too, i think. No?

But if you don't pointed at me , then i apologize for that. I thought you was mentioning another thread.


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## HardyP (Sep 30, 2015)

Sonokinetic BV said:


> At the moment, the discussion around a products details are all contained within the one thread with clarifications and sales related information all easily to hand. Creating threads in Sample talk spreads the information across the site meaning a browser has to search through multiple sections to get a full picture.


Thank you very much - I was going to write exactly this.
And my fear is: As soon as the devs have to observe several threads, we as user won´t get the answers we want to have. Let´s be honest: It´s time consuming for them to even track one thread, since I know from hearsay, that there might be a world outside of VI-C...?!

We had really great discussions (great in terms of results) in CA, since have been able to express questions, concerns, and even suggestions, which were commented by the devs - giving insight to their decisions, why something as been designed in a specific way, quick work-arounds, and even "thanks for the hint, will be in the update next week".
THAT´s what forum with VI-Cs aim is about. I had benefits from that even long time after the release, bcs when doing a forum search for a software I am considering to buy, most time the anouncement thread is that one with
- the most neutral information (ok, sometimes except for the starting post ...)
- covering improvements
- getting a sense, how responsive and caring a dev is
- knowing how he/she handles criticism
And I bet, we will loose this, as soon as the threads are spread. Even today - devs are not found quite often in the Sample Talk section...

So in my opinion, we should leave it as it is, but I would like to have 2 adjustments:
- a more strict moderation. Maybe a disclaimer where you have to except that, if one is replying to a thread
- Fluffy´s suggestion (a Dev is becoming a mod for his thread) is quite interesting; I would be fully ok with that.

Kind regards, and I hope things keep rollin'


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## Guy Rowland (Sep 30, 2015)

It's like deja vu all over again! From Xmas eve last year:

http://vi-control.net/community/thr...tion-in-vi-cs-commercial-announcements.35852/

Ah, good times. The results never made it across the forum migration looks like, but from memory ended up about 50/50.

Since then I think I stuck to the rules, but.... well.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Sep 30, 2015)

I don't think that locking the threads would really make sense. A big part of what makes those threads useful for the devs is the fact that people keep a conversation going and push the thread back up to the top. It generates a good buzz around the product, keeps interest up and generates anticipation. If it was just a one-off locked announcement, why not just settle for a banner ad, that at least moves and flashes and won't just disappear somewhere in the depths of the forum.

But then again, if it's a forum thread, it means it's people talking. That comes with the territory, and if that's an interesting venue of marketing, my logic would be to take it for what it is and roll with it. I wouldn't close the threads, but I also wouldn't moderate them differently from the rest of the forum. Locking the thread essentially, to me, contains the same message as applying some arcane extra rules of conduct for these particular threads: you people babbling away is fine and all that, but when it's business, it's business. It just seems wayward and fruitless to regulate conversations on a forum (except the usual and obvious actions against spam, slander, legally incriminating content, racism etc.). And I firmly believe that if a product has potential and there's genuine interest in it, some sideways banter won't be able to take away from that.


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## procreative (Sep 30, 2015)

By all means moderate abusive posts, or advise if it goes wildly off topic. But the prompter of this whole discussion was a thread on a Spitfire announcement. The only thing on there that was "off-topic" was competitor product comparison, but surely all that was required was a "please do not use this forum to compare products".

For instance I posted to clarify the true cost of cross grading for early adopters versus this buying on sale, technically this could be viewed as off-topic. However as a major part of the announcement was to herald the fantastic deal for existing owners. So it was relevant as not everyone is so good with finances and may just see what they pay now.

Similarly another post complained at the lack of info and how it did not help make a decision whether to buy Albion 1 and then cross grade, or wait and just buy Albion ONE, or buy something else altogether (which then escalated into a comparison). Now again technically its off topic. But when a developer has a sale end date that finishes before the full launch details of a product you could cross grade to I can see why there is frustration.

People post there as they hope the developer will take note or answer them. Yes a support ticket could also resolve this, but there are a few developers that have moved on from answering these themselves and have employed staff to deal with them. So sometimes the answers are not as correct or knowledgable particularly with pre-launch questions.

So both above scenarios could take place in Sample Talk (and do).

But if you lock Commercial Threads, in the long run developers will lose out as their posts will fall down the list unless they spam them with lots of pointless posts.


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## Øivind (Sep 30, 2015)

I would just like a nice clean thread of info and updates in the CA forum. What it do not want is 20 pages of spam. Perhaps a Q & A function could be implemented? Users can post questions into a question box and whatever questions deemed relevant, get answered from the developer and shown in the CA forum post. And a go wild and speculation post can be made in the sample forum for those who want to discuss.
maybe, i don't know, might be a terrible suggestion ^^


edit: this also makes watching a thread better IMO, because when you get notification on a CA thread, you know its from a developer and not someone with a potential random comment.


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## paoling (Sep 30, 2015)

Another thing I can say as a developer is: I know that announcements and hype are fun, but they can't substitute the duty of providing the needed information to the users. There are some tricks I see here, that sometimes just seem to play with the user in someways, without providing the needed information. 

Teasers are good but sometimes they don't say much about the library. Personally when I announce a library, even with a teaser, that is the time I'm ready to answer to all the questions; at least to the ones I know precisely the answer (sometimes the final price is still not clear to us, when we announce an instrument )


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## lux (Sep 30, 2015)

I personally like how this forum is now, and all in all I see developers handling very well customer's questions and doubts. Fluffy's suggestions can be good.

But I think that just applying common politeness and real life rules more or less make it into forums as well.


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## blougui (Sep 30, 2015)

atw said:


> Again it's the other way around. If you ask a question and the developer doesn't answer, then it's ignorant and unmannerd too.



If you want/need answers, first try to contact the relevent support rather than Commercial A. I've noticed answers from "big" developpers became scarcier on this forum.

On another note : I deeply regret the sudden disappearance of some individuals AKA devs, here, being replaced by an unnammed PR or support girl/guy. I understand it feels more secure for them, especially when they are hyper sensitive or being they are too sensitive but in the end, I find it boring. Devs being musicians most of the time, their shared experience was quite something I was looking forward to. Sure, not everybody has gone.


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## SergeD (Sep 30, 2015)

I voted yes, and then read the Mike Greene's comment. The developer should have the option to allow or not conversations into his commercial post. He could also link users to a separate sample talk thread related to his announcement.

I would prefer a simple announcement being kept on track and alive with news, fixes, improvements, or anything else related to that product. But finally the decision should be left to the developer himself.


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## atw (Sep 30, 2015)

blougui said:


> If you want/need answers, first try to contact the relevent support rather than Commercial A. I've noticed answers from "big" developpers became scarcier on this forum.
> 
> On another note : I deeply regret the sudden disappearance of some individuals AKA devs, here, being replaced by an unnammed PR or support girl/guy. I understand it feels more secure for them, especially when they are hyper sensitive or being they are too sensitive but in the end, I find it boring. Devs being musicians most of the time, their shared experience was quite something I was looking forward to. Sure, not everybody has gone.



blougui, for me as user, it seems the number of users (no devs, but act like devs) has increased too, who just have the interest to spam/push a certain product by ignoring customers position. They come in mass sometimes.
Just an impression.
(Generally speaking)


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## Craig Sharmat (Sep 30, 2015)

At least 6 developers have now weighed in all for keeping things as is...this is a developers section. Just so you know as a mod I am for keeping this as the developers see fit.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 30, 2015)

Folks, which ever way you come down on this issue, here is a partial list of developers who used to not only post commercial announcements but actually participate in discussions who no longer, or very rarely, do. You have to ask yourself why, unless you assume they are all prima donnas who cannot handle criticism. (I am here because I am paid to be here, have the world's thickest skin, and since I don't create the libraries, I have no pride of authorship.)

EDIT: I decided it was unwise to name them because they might not approve of my doing so but there were at least a dozen who instantly came to mind. Most of them have personally said to me at NAMM, "I hate that place."

So when you vote, ask yourself do we _really_ want VI Control to be such an inhospitable place to come to that developers only post commercial announcements and then scurry out as fast as they can? And if locking this sub-forum is not a solution, can we at least talk about a better solution?


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## Craig Sharmat (Sep 30, 2015)

Jay, if you can get the dissenting developers here to post an opposite view point I am all for hearing that. My guess is they will still not like this place because they can still be talked badly about in sample talk.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 30, 2015)

Craig Sharmat said:


> Jay, if you can get the dissenting developers here to post anopposite view point I am all for hearing that. My guess is they will still not like this place because they can still be talked badly about in sample talk.


I don't have a hard and fast position on this, I am merely saying "Houston we have a problem."


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## Daryl (Sep 30, 2015)

I have one question. Do the developers pay for the banner, do they pay for the Commercial Announcement, or both? If either of the last two options they should have a space where they can advertise their products without being questioned or having to defend their product against any other competitor. If they choose not to participate in Sample Talk, they can always mention in the Announcement that discussion with the developers is by the support channels.

As far as developers being chased away, I don't think I've ever seen it where there was actually a decent product being discussed. Mostly they couldn't take the criticism when they released a shoddy product. Solution. Don't release shoddy products. Disclaimer: there may be some discussions of which I'm not aware.

D


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 30, 2015)

Well Daryl, you are a big VSL fan, right, and presumably don't think their products are "shoddy?" One of their guys left here in a huff a couple of years ago and sent me a PM telling me why he thought this place was toxic.

Once again, I haver no concrete solution, I just think people need to give it some thought about how we can keep things informative, lively, and yet non-adversarial to developers. Maybe it isn't possible.


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## jacobfatoorechi (Sep 30, 2015)

I'm certain someone has already expressed this opinion, but I'll echo the sentiment:

What incentive would I have in visiting a section of the forum that is strictly advertisement? In the current world of sample libraries, one rarely has an opportunity to "try before you buy" so we all rely on our community of composers and their opinions/experiences to help make purchase decision. I actively visit the commercial section of VI because I know I'm going to get the answers I need in the reply section.

I think this is a huge benefit for developers with a good product and surely the opposite for those with a bad product. It's transparency and I think that benefits our community.

Edit: to clarify, I'm in favor of more active moderation to prevent hostility while maintaining a level of transparency and conversation in CA. If the rules are clear, no one can cry censorship.


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## rJames (Sep 30, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Most of them have personally said to me at NAMM, "I hate that place."


If we can encourage developers who think that way to leave, I'm all for it!!!
(many of them, dare I say most of them, grew up here) 
That is a sad statement. 
Yes, please name them.


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## ysnyvz (Sep 30, 2015)

rJames said:


> Yes, please name them.


It starts with "C", probably another one is "8".


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## NYC Composer (Sep 30, 2015)

I've found some developers pretty toxic. Mostly the ones who
left in a huff it seems big egos can create wonderful things, yet can also have incredible sensitivities.

It's not reasonable to expect to be worshipped as a Sampling God and yet not be able to absorb a few slings and arrows in the process. In my observations here, worship has outweighed abuse by a wide margin.

Do customers/forum members need to check themselves? Absolutely. Do I think some developers with big personalities might best put on their big boy pants and accept that this is a forum on the InterWeb with the accompanying pluses and minuses? Absolutely. There are certainly plenty of sales generated here. Take some heat and deflect it with humor and grace or, well, leave in a huff. Okay by me either way.


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## Vastman (Sep 30, 2015)

Please don't change the current system... even in the Albion thread we had lots of good, lively discussions and people shared/learned things... I'm sure many bought into the Albion 1 deal because of it... sure it got a bit crazy but it also has been FUN and even with a bit of "try this other thing", I'm quite sure Spitfire benefited from all the discussion...

_Saying it's their fault for "teasing" us is a ridiculous personal opinion... I and others *LOVE* the tease and slow reveal... it's like a strip tease of a lovely thing... _

I would ONLY agree with making it a read only forum if that's what a developer wanted... indeed, why not poll THEM????

You also might give each developer the *OPTION* of making any particular announcement *READ ONLY OR OPEN FOR DISCUSSION... 
*
This to me would be the best option... leave each tread in the hands of the one's paying for the privilege... we can always start a thread when a developer feels they want an announcement to be *JUST* an announcement!

If this is NOT possible, due to the makeup of the forum's toolset, then still poll the developers and assign a moderator to do this per thread... for example, if most want it open, then allow a company to post and ask a mod to make that particular thread read only. Hopefully this will be the exception to the rule.

Getting upset because a mod asks us to keep it on topic is just the "MEMEME" syndrom run amok... respect those giving their time to make this forum work... I respect and appreciate all they do... those that don't are ego driven aholes...


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 30, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> I've found some developers pretty toxic. Mostly the ones who
> left in a huff it seems big egos can create wonderful things, yet can also have incredible sensitivities.
> 
> It's not reasonable to expect to be worshipped as a Sampling God and yet not be able to absorb a few slings and arrows in the process. In my observations here, worship has outweighed abuse by a wide margin.
> ...



But what they discovered is that they can still come here when necessary to announce their products, interact only as much as necessary, and then get the hell out without having to really deal with the more... err... colorful people here. If most members are fine with it ok, but I remember what it used to be like when I first came here and I think we are all the poorer for it.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 30, 2015)

Never have I heard a bad word from Realitone, Orange Tree, ISW, Strezov, Indiginus, Vienna, Spectrasonics, AudioBro, Cinematic Strings, SampleModeling, etc etc. 
Many of them don't come into Sample Talk attacking every negative post, either, which makes a lot of sense to me.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 30, 2015)

I can't say all that I know and what has been said to me without betraying confidences so I will bow out and reiterate that if people don't see it as a problem then I guess it isn't.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 30, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> But what they discovered is that they can still come here when necessary to announce their products, interact only as much as necessary, and then get the hell out without having to really deal with the more... err... colorful people here. If most members are fine with it ok, but I remember what it used to be like when I first came here and I think we are all the poorer for it.


 
I don't go back as far as you, but there was plenty of dev input when I got here, and I remember things getting pretty stupid, not just from the "colorful people" side. There are some pretty magenta devs too.


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## Reegs (Sep 30, 2015)

I vote we try it. See how it works. Reassess in four to six months. But I also don't sell any products here.


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## Andrew Aversa (Sep 30, 2015)

VI is about the farthest thing I can imagine from "hostile". No joke. Have you read YouTube comments lately? I've been in this business since 2008 and I've yet to have a single problem as a developer on this forum. If people post something negative about one of our products, I don't try to censor them, I respond and try to address their concerns. This has always worked. I never dismiss customers OR potential customers.

When you talk to people like this, I think that it has the effect of calming down any nerves, anger, confusion, distaste, etc. Where I think some developers have gone wrong is trying to use forum mods to censor dissent, ignoring questions or constructive criticism, fighting fire with fire, neglecting product issues, and so forth. Have we released only perfect products? Of course not - and sometimes it takes us awhile to fix issues, being a small company. But I personally always acknowledge and address them courteously, if only to say that we're aware of an issue and that it WILL be fixed in the future.

Really though, even the worst posts and flame wars here don't come close to what I've seen on Reddit, YouTube, KVR, or even certain Facebook groups.


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## scarred bunny (Oct 1, 2015)

zircon_st said:


> VI is about the farthest thing I can imagine from "hostile". No joke.



I agree wholeheartedly. Granted I wasn't around in the goode olde days of VI-Control, but honestly, by and large I still find this to be one of the coolest and most relaxed places around the net. VI-C still has a fair amount of traffic, is pretty relaxed about moderation and censorship, and is still a pretty civil place for an online forum. I don't see that happen very often. Every other messageboard I've been a regular at has over time either turned into nonsense because it attracted too many people and big crowds tend to be less civilized, or turned into silence because there just wasn't enough interest from anyone anymore. 

Is VI-C perfect? Well, no. I see plenty of threads that deteriorate into nothing but an exchange of competitive witty one-liners, and there's the occasional trolling, name-calling and other nonsense. And there certainly have been some controversies with certain developers being treated badly and unfairly by members (some of which probably should have resulted in banning). And some responses by developers that haven't been particularly fair or diplomatic. But all this happens anywhere and everywhere, and if anything it happens far less frequently here. The developers who leave because they can't handle the toxicity of VI-C, I wonder if there's any forum that they can stand? Have you read Gearslutz or KVR? Or the dreaded comment section on a typical YouTube video? (If I ever find myself getting too cheerful about the state of humanity, YouTube comments is where I turn to: it's the most effective cure for optimism and philanthropy that I know.)

So I guess I'm in the "don't really see the problem" camp. 

I think the present-day policy of allowing discussions in the CA forum, but with stricter moderation, is basically fine. I wouldn't care too much if it became read-only, but honestly, I find the discussions are usually more interesting and informative than the announcements themselves. So if CA becomes read only, I probably wouldn't even go there in the first place. Which would render the whole thing kind of meaningless as a vehicle for developers reaching me with their announcements. Letting developers choose themselves whether their announcements should be locked might be a good middle ground, although I think they're shooting themselves in the foot by disallowing discussions there. 

If developers are choosing to leave this forum, that is a little sad. I do appreciate their presence and value their input. I think developers would be wise not to underestimate the value in this kind of community participation when handled right: look at a company like U-He who have been _very _active in participating in discussions on KVR and other places, and (what I've seen anyway) always in a friendly and cooperative spirit, despite facing some sharp criticism here and there. I wouldn't be surprised if this has helped their success and popularity. But obviously if you participate as the public face of a company, you can't expect it to all be rainbows and unicorns. Not here, nor anywhere. If you can't handle that, then... maybe it is best to stay out of it, or you're likely to do yourself more harm than good. Or hire someone else to handle it for you, as some companies have done. Quite successfully, as far as I can tell. 

Well, that's it for my love letter to VI-C. Back to lurking...


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## Christof (Oct 1, 2015)

I voted No because this is a forum and not an advertising space.Each post should be open for discussion.


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## Vin (Oct 1, 2015)

zircon_st said:


> VI is about the farthest thing I can imagine from "hostile". No joke. Have you read YouTube comments lately? I've been in this business since 2008 and I've yet to have a single problem as a developer on this forum. If people post something negative about one of our products, I don't try to censor them, I respond and try to address their concerns. This has always worked. I never dismiss customers OR potential customers.
> 
> When you talk to people like this, I think that it has the effect of calming down any nerves, anger, confusion, distaste, etc. Where I think some developers have gone wrong is trying to use forum mods to censor dissent, ignoring questions or constructive criticism, fighting fire with fire, neglecting product issues, and so forth. Have we released only perfect products? Of course not - and sometimes it takes us awhile to fix issues, being a small company. But I personally always acknowledge and address them courteously, if only to say that we're aware of an issue and that it WILL be fixed in the future.
> 
> Really though, even the worst posts and flame wars here don't come close to what I've seen on Reddit, YouTube, KVR, or even certain Facebook groups.



Great post and a truly great attitude, Andrew. If only more developers were like you, we wouldn't even have threads like this. Since this thread is a Spitfire Albion thread follow-up, I must say that, while Spitfire makes great libraries (I've owned original Albion since it was released), their attitude towards criticism, whenever something came up, was very childish (threatening to leave forum etc. and banning customers from support) imo. And it's a shame because I really liked them when they were a small company.

This is a great discussion and I must admit that at first I was for locking the Commercial Announcements, but after thinking about it and reading some great thoughts in this thread, I'm leaning more toward option 'no'.

Jay, it's a bit ironic that you address VI-control as a hostile place when East West forum is a forum equivalent of 1984.  When compared to other forums, VI-control is probably almost perfect. However, is it? No, of course. But I can't think of any other musician-oriented forum where one can learn as much as here. I know I did, and I'm very grateful for it.

Long live VI-control!


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## Daryl (Oct 1, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Well Daryl, you are a big VSL fan, right, and presumably don't think their products are "shoddy?" One of their guys left here in a huff a couple of years ago and sent me a PM telling me why he thought this place was toxic.


I have no comment to make, as I have no idea what or when or what context. However, I can think of many examples with other companies where the customer was right and the developer was wrong.

D


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## Daryl (Oct 1, 2015)

zircon_st said:


> VI is about the farthest thing I can imagine from "hostile". No joke. Have you read YouTube comments lately? I've been in this business since 2008 and I've yet to have a single problem as a developer on this forum. If people post something negative about one of our products, I don't try to censor them, I respond and try to address their concerns. This has always worked. I never dismiss customers OR potential customers.


Given that many of the developers are composers, or at least used to be, they should remember that they are not suddenly in charge. They are in the same position as they have always been. There to serve the client. I would bet that most of them would never dream of "speaking" to a director or producer the way they speak to some customers, and the irony is that in this case the customer is much more likely to be right.

I understand that it is frustrating to spend weeks/months working on something, only to have somebody trash it. It is even more frustrating that this comment is searchable via Google, or some other equally monstrous engine. However, being reasonable or polite and agreeing to disagree will earn many brownie points.

D


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## atw (Oct 1, 2015)

There are more new developers than those who "leaved". And i am sure more will come to VI-C. VI-Control has a great user base.
And i guess, those who "leaved" are still here, sounds paradox but think about it.  At least they are here with their advertises.


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## procreative (Oct 1, 2015)

You know I really do get that developers get sensitive about criticism, anyone who creates something is proud of it and is often blind to any frailties, plus there are sometimes unfounded criticisms.

However many developers in their quest to promote their products promise too much or make statements that are ready to be knocked down, "the best legato you ever heard" or "hyper realistic" etc. So when these products do not quite live up to this, or when there are more than superficial flaws present, users need a way to either tell others or seek solutions. Trying to keep it calm is not always easy if you have paid hundreds or £ $ or € and you cannot get it to do what it did in the demos. EW were criticised for their handling of user frustration, however many of the "other developers" are rapidly heading the same way.

Developer involvement in these forums is a vital element in purchase decisions. I can understand why some have chosen to back off, egos wounded - an example is 8Dio who got into very heated exchanges. However its their mistake. For example I am on their email list, I get to hear of every sale, deal, new release anyway (as most other developers also do). But I find their reluctance to stand by their products or publicly answer gripes or fixes perturbing, so much so that a few times I have been tempted by new releases, then pulled back as I often find the sales hyperbole does not match reality.

I can think of a few other developers that used to take a very active role here: Cinesamples and Spitfire for example who now just post a few announcements. I seem to remember 8Dio, Soundiron, Cinesamples and Spitfire being part of a collective "we can do this better" think tank, looking on at EW and VSL and seeing "another way".

If a closed CA is the way they want to go, fine, but withdrawing from active participation is a mistake. Sure they can advertise in trade mags, get reviews etc but seasoned users (who probably make up their core buyers in what is a very niche market) are not swayed by reviews as frequently they are tainted by the advertising revenue they bring in (e.g. Sound On Sound).

For true opinion we come here or KVR or Gearslutz (neither as good for Sample discussion IMO). We can survive just in Sample Talk and for me thats no biggie. But developers should still take an active role.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 1, 2015)

Over the years, I have found that both developers and members' have thinner skin (is this a generational thing? Cultural? Maybe professors can chime in). Some devs can barely handle criticism, and run away from having their foot put to the fire. They then go on to put down VI-C in other parts of the web, to be followed by a return to the forum with a smile to hawk some of their new wares; some members can't handle the slightest limits imposed by a moderator, even if clearly warranted, so they start a post about it and gather sympathy from some (always possible when you have many thousands of members), making the forum look heavy-handed.


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## EvilDragon (Oct 1, 2015)

I think every developer should be able to self-moderate their threads in CA section. Of course, this can always be monitored by forum's admins and moderators, but yeah. That.


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## Daryl (Oct 1, 2015)

EvilDragon said:


> I think every developer should be able to self-moderate their threads in CA section. Of course, this can always be monitored by forum's admins and moderators, but yeah. That.


The only snag with that is means that there will only ever be positive comments about the product, with no balance of any sort, so for a prospective purchaser it will gave a totally one sided view, whilst appearing to be balanced. To me this is worse than a forum that only consists of developer propaganda. At least that way everyone knows that they are not getting a balanced view of the product.

D


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Oct 1, 2015)

Devs moderating other forums than their own official ones would turn the whole idea of a "community forum" into its exact opposite.


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## D.Salzenberg (Oct 1, 2015)

procreative said:


> If a closed CA is the way they want to go, fine, but withdrawing from active participation is a mistake. Sure they can advertise in trade mags, get reviews etc but seasoned users (who probably make up their core buyers in what is a very niche market) are not swayed by reviews as frequently they are tainted by the advertising revenue they bring in (e.g. Sound On Sound).
> 
> For true opinion we come here or KVR or Gearslutz (neither as good for Sample discussion IMO). We can survive just in Sample Talk and for me thats no biggie. But developers should still take an active role.



I never *ever* trust reviews in Sound On Sound, or Guitarist. Every time one of the big companies who spend lots on advertising launch a new product its always the greatest thing ever. Its very very difficult to get unbiased opinions, which is why forums like this one are invaluable.
Obviously no-one likes having their hard work/products trashed, but you very rarely see that, mostly you see people reporting genuine problems or fair enough opinions. Things can get heated and the nature of the internet makes it easier to be obnoxious from the safety of your own home, and things get said which would never get said face to face, but people have to deal with that and get on with it.
A lot of these products are very expensive and unable to be tried out before you part with your hard earned money, so developers need to really understand that consumers are at a massive disadvantage because of that, its not like buying a guitar you can try out in a store and then decide whether to buy or not. Even worse with developers that forbid second hand sales. So they need to understand why consumers put in this position of disadvantage can get really pissed off when the products aren't what they expected.


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## procreative (Oct 1, 2015)

D.Salzenberg said:


> I never *ever* trust reviews in Sound On Sound, or Guitarist. Every time one of the big companies who spend lots on advertising launch a new product its always the greatest thing ever. Its very very difficult to get unbiased opinions, which is why forums like this one are invaluable.
> Obviously no-one likes having their hard work/products trashed, but you very rarely see that, mostly you see people reporting genuine problems or fair enough opinions. Things can get heated and the nature of the internet makes it easier to be obnoxious from the safety of your own home, and things get said which would never get said face to face, but people have to deal with that and get on with it.
> A lot of these products are very expensive and unable to be tried out before you part with your hard earned money, so developers need to really understand that consumers are at a massive disadvantage because of that, its not like buying a guitar you can try out in a store and then decide whether to buy or not. Even worse with developers that forbid second hand sales. So they need to understand why consumers put in this position of disadvantage can get really pissed off when the products aren't what they expected.



Exactly! Unlike hardware products you cannot go into most music stores and try them out!!


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## procreative (Oct 1, 2015)

EvilDragon said:


> I think every developer should be able to self-moderate their threads in CA section. Of course, this can always be monitored by forum's admins and moderators, but yeah. That.



What like East West Soundsonline? At one point they just deleted any posts that criticised or pointed out issues.

Either lock it up totally or leave as is. The point of this forum is meant to be a neutral zone to spot products, discuss products, shares issues. If a product announcement only ever contains the sycophantic fanboy posts how useful is that?

And I am sure there are some "users" out there who might have a reason to never say anything bad, the ones that beta test, get NFR copies, are buddies with developers etc. It would be too easy to manipulate.


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## ModalRealist (Oct 1, 2015)

I think developers should be able to choose whether they allow user comments in their advertising thread when they post it. Those who do not allow comments will have a "bump quota" (e.g. once a week, for example).

That way, developers can have a reasonable choice: post their announcement and allow for free discussion, which comes with perhaps slightly higher risk, but potentially better reward (big threads attract views and stay on top of the forum), or disallow comments, cutting off the opportunity for bigger "buzz" but without stifling the announcement completely (through limited self-bumps).


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## procreative (Oct 1, 2015)

ModalRealist said:


> I think developers should be able to choose whether they allow user comments in their advertising thread when they post it. Those who do not allow comments will have a "bump quota" (e.g. once a week, for example).
> 
> That way, developers can have a reasonable choice: post their announcement and allow for free discussion, which comes with perhaps slightly higher risk, but potentially better reward (big threads attract views and stay on top of the forum), or disallow comments, cutting off the opportunity for bigger "buzz" but without stifling the announcement completely (through limited self-bumps).



I like the sound of that. Not sure if this forum's software can do that though?


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 1, 2015)

D.Salzenberg said:


> It's like this:
> Here's my amazing new product costing £xxxx
> Sorry , no you can't try it out, because some criminals may pirate it if I offer try outs.
> But here's some demos made by amazing musicians, and/or sweetened with expensive outboard and/or layered with stuff you don't actually get.
> ...



What a cynical post. And the part about the demos is so pathetic, it barely deserves comment.


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## D.Salzenberg (Oct 1, 2015)

Ned Bouhalassa said:


> What a cynical post. And the part about the demos is so pathetic, it barely deserves comment.


I will admit not all demos are like that, and there are sometimes 'naked' demos, but the rest sums up exactly the position consumers are in. I cannot think of any other products of a comparable expense where the consumer is put at such a disadvantage.


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## rJames (Oct 1, 2015)

Daryl said:


> The only snag with that is means that there will only ever be positive comments about the product, with no balance of any sort, so for a prospective purchaser it will gave a totally one sided view, whilst appearing to be balanced. To me this is worse than a forum that only consists of developer propaganda. At least that way everyone knows that they are not getting a balanced view of the product.
> 
> D


+1 Please, don't ever do that! (fox guarding the henhouse???)

BTW I think that it is obvious to everyone when someone is just "trashing" a product for fun or profit. Intelligent people just dismiss those comments. Getting into a fight just brings attention to them.


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## atw (Oct 1, 2015)

D.Salzenberg, that's not true. And i would suggest you to change your post. No offense! I will explain why...

There are walkthroughs videos, demos, written information (what it contains, structure, manual,...) and even tutorials.

And you can test it on try-sound.com sometimes. Atm, i remember ProjectSam's products , but there are other developers too.

And I know there are some developers who offers Try-packs. Atm ISW and 8DIO comes in my mind, but i think there are more.

And recently you can test East West Quantum Leap's products(Gold) for one month (free). Even without iLOK (dongle).

And there are companies like u-He, Valhalla DSP, and many more, who let you use their synth's and other stuff for free in demo mode.

And certainly more...


I hope i have convinced you. So please re-think what you have said.

Reselling is another pairs of shoes, but I wouldn't start another conversation here.


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## benmrx (Oct 1, 2015)

Any press is good press. Seems like it would only hurt developers to make the forum read only.


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## D.Salzenberg (Oct 1, 2015)

atw said:


> D.Salzenberg, that's not true. And i would suggest you to change your post. No offense! I will explain why...
> 
> There are walkthroughs videos, demos, written information (what it contains, structure, manual,...) and even tutorials.
> 
> ...


I did make some rather unfair sweeping generalisations there, so have deleted my post. However I still feel that in general the consumer is at a big disadvantage.


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## atw (Oct 1, 2015)

Thank you


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Oct 1, 2015)

atw said:


> D.Salzenberg, that's not true. And i would suggest you to change your post. No offense! I will explain why...
> 
> There are walkthroughs videos, demos, written information (what it contains, structure, manual,...) and even tutorials.
> 
> ...



The EW test period of their Composer's Cloud only includes 4 products. Trysound was a great idea, but the service was last updated several years ago and only a number of manufacturers even participated in the whole thing anyway. Trypacks are great, but sadly not the norm, but the exception. So, none of that is really an argument and D. Salzenberg definitely has a point - it is an industry where as a customer, you're "supposed" to spend sometimes substantial amounts of money on something you can't try, return or re-sell.

I certainly own way less libraries and VIs than many others, mainly because I so often can't really tell what I would be buying. Audio demos don't do it for me. They show me what someone else has done with the product. Doesn't really help me. I've learned more than once that only when I can get my hands on something in a practical way, I can really tell what it is and if it does something for me. Granted, I'm a level-headed guy, I don't have quite the severe GAS that's so typical for a lot of musicians, and I don't do impulse purchases or whatever.


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## atw (Oct 1, 2015)

D.Salzenberg's post was too extreme and he agreed and accepted.

Of course you can't be 100% sure, when you have those information. But you get closer.

There are things like playability, how the instruments responses, workflow, etc...

I think only testing gives you that. I wish they would do more try-sound or try packs or similar.

PS: There is a whole orchestra(Ewql Symphonic Orchestra) and 3 other instruments atm, i think.
And try-sound is upgrading to version 2 or something, atm. Maybe there are more, i don't know.


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 1, 2015)

When you listen to Elton John play the piano, if you are a pop-rock musician you hear what is possible with enough practice and talent. The same is true to a lesser degree with sample libraries. When you hear a well done demo you hear what is possible with enough practice and talent.

The problem as I see it, and I know that a lot of you are going to disagree, is that so many people now want to buy a library; load it without having to read the manual; not have to practice hours and hours with it to find the best techniques; not learn what it will do well and then supplement with libraries that knowledgeable people tell you do those other things well. And that is what it takes!

It is IMHO the malaise of our era. OK, no more preaching


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## woodsdenis (Oct 1, 2015)

Mike Greene said:


> This is a bad idea. No developer wants to make a commercial announcement post, then watch their announcement die of loneliness. It makes paying for the privilege almost worthless.
> 
> There are benefits to keeping things as is and letting everyone post in CA threads. For one, it keeps the exciting announcements towards the top. If Spitfire or AudioBro or whoever releases some library that's inspiring 20 pages of posts, then there must be something pretty cool going on, so don't you want that thread near the top, as opposed to buried in the archives from three weeks ago when it was announced? I sure do.
> 
> ...



All of this because some over zealous mod interferes in the Spitfire thread, daft. Read what Mike says above , its as simple as that.


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## creativeforge (Oct 1, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> The problem as I see it, and I know that a lot of you are going to disagree, is that so many people now want to buy a library; load it without having to read the manual; not have to practice hours and hours with it to find the best techniques; not learn what it will do well and then supplement with libraries that knowledgeable people tell you do those other things well. And that is what it takes!



I totally agree!

*The other side of the coin is not the demos, but the slogans used for marketing the product. The "promises" made by the developers, and how we the people, confuse a product endorsement by artists we respect to be the voice of the company about their product's actual performance.*

Look at any electronic product, and it's even truer with software: customers are beta-testers. It only makes good business sense to:
- offer trial versions;
- accept criticism as contribution;
- not bash and shame a customer who is coming from a standpoint of newbie regarding a product;
- resist the urge to make impossible demands on customers ("The reason you are having difficulties is that you think this will make you a better musician. Nahn, just go study and practice for a few years and you will love our products THEN.");
- get endorsements from real customers who know what they're doing enough to land professional jobs;

And I'm not pointing to anyone in particular, just putting this on the table...


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 1, 2015)

I don't disagree with most of that.


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## creativeforge (Oct 1, 2015)

woodsdenis said:


> All of this because some over zealous mod interferes in the Spitfire thread, daft. Read what Mike says above , its as simple as that.



After examining this under all angles available to me over the past few days, I'm coming around to agree with Mike too.


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## D.Salzenberg (Oct 1, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> When you listen to Elton John play the piano, if you are a pop-rock musician you hear what is possible with enough practice and talent. The same is true to a lesser degree with sample libraries. When you hear a well done demo you hear what is possible with enough practice and talent.
> 
> The problem as I see it, and I know that a lot of you are going to disagree, is that so many people now want to buy a library; load it without having to read the manual; not have to practice hours and hours with it to find the best techniques; not learn what it will do well and then supplement with libraries that knowledgeable people tell you do those other things well. And that is what it takes!
> 
> It is IMHO the malaise of our era. OK, no more preaching


To some extent that is certainly true, however I can go to a music store and try a strat and can judge what I am able to do with that instrument. Without being able to download a fully working demo version it is impossible to make the same judgement with sample libraries, and even though I made some rather extreme points in my earlier post, I maintain that purchasing an expensive product that you can't try, can't return, and in some cases can't even sell secondhand, the consumer is at a very unfair disadvantage.


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## creativeforge (Oct 1, 2015)

D.Salzenberg said:


> To some extent that is certainly true, however I can go to a music store and try a strat and can judge what I am able to do with that instrument. Without being able to download a fully working demo version it is impossible to make the same judgement with sample libraries, and even though I made some rather extreme points in my earlier post, I maintain that purchasing an expensive product that you can't try, can't return, and in some cases can't even sell secondhand, the consumer is at a very unfair disadvantage.



Certainly very true...


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## Daryl (Oct 1, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> The problem as I see it, and I know that a lot of you are going to disagree, is that so many people now want to buy a library; load it without having to read the manual; not have to practice hours and hours with it to find the best techniques; not learn what it will do well and then supplement with libraries that knowledgeable people tell you do those other things well.


Jay, in lots of ways I agree with you on that, but I think that there are three other things to consider.


Not all developers are experts at the instruments they are turning into sample libraries, and therefore it is possible that the user actually knows more about how an instrument should sound and be played than they do.
There are going to be issues with any new product, and a developer has to understand that, be sympathetic and fix them in a timely manner. There have been cases where developers have basically told the users that they don't know what they're doing and therefore their opinion doesn't matter. Even when the user is clearly right.
It has already been mentioned, but any demo that is used to sell a product mustn't have secret "tricks" in the way that it is sequenced. If it is a trade secret, then fine. Just don't pretend that the user can make something sound the same, if they can't, without knowing this secret. It wouldn't matter, except when there is no demo of the product and no returns are allowed, it's not possible for a user to see whether or not they would be able to get the same result in the time that the have available. That's why I'm a great believer in MIDI files being available for demos. You can actually see the amount of work that goes into the demo, and are then more likely to be able to make a rational judgement. I think the walkthroughs that are being done are very helpful, but even then it is sometimes hard to see how to get from the cr*ppy performance in the walkthrough to a fully realised piece of music.
D


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## creativeforge (Oct 1, 2015)

Daryl said:


> Jay, in lots of ways I agree with you on that, but I think that there are three other things to consider.
> 
> 
> Not all developers are experts at the instruments they are turning into sample libraries, and therefore it is possible that the user actually knows more about how an instrument should sound and be played than they do.
> ...



THIS. This is another very intelligent contribution that developers should find invaluable, and act upon. Viva VIC!


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 1, 2015)

Daryl said:


> Jay, in lots of ways I agree with you on that, but I think that there are three other things to consider.
> 
> 
> Not all developers are experts at the instruments they are turning into sample libraries, and therefore it is possible that the user actually knows more about how an instrument should sound and be played than they do.
> ...




Then please explain to me why over the last 10 years every library Colin has demoed, and he did them for several companies before he became part of 8dio, sounds great. Please explain to me why over the last 15 years every library T,J, has demoed, and he did them for several companies before he became part of EW, sounds great. How come every library Roberto touches (where is he these days, btw?) sounds great.

There are no "secret tricks" to ANY of these libraries. There is only knowledge of what they do and do not do well, skill, practice, musical knowledge, and talent.


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## creativeforge (Oct 1, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Then please explain to me why over the last 10 years every library Colin has demoed, and he did them for several companies before he became part of 8dio, sounds great. Please explain to me why over the last 15 years every library T,J, has demoed, and he did them for several companies before he became part of EW, sounds great. How come every library Roberto touches (where is he these days, btw?) sounds great.
> 
> There are no "secret tricks" to ANY of these libraries. There is only knowledge of what they do and do not do well, skill, practice, musical knowledge, and talent.



Wow! Masterful deflection, EastWest Lurker! I am witnessing the Art of not listening... so sad. Completely annihilate someone's opinion by diverting the conversation to "I'm right you're wrong I don't care about context."

THE POINT IS - LISTENING in a way to understand what the person is REALLY trying to express. How can you move forward if you don't know where you start from?

Nobody needs to explain anything, imho, or maybe we do (although Daryl and many others just tried) it's all very transparent, and asking this is almost an insult to our intelligence... tsk tsk ...


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 1, 2015)

No deflection, just a specific response to a specific post. I already stated earlier in the thread that I agree with many of the points, so do I need to restate that in every post?


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## David Donaldson (Oct 1, 2015)

What Mike said.


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## drumman (Oct 1, 2015)

Indeed, what Mike said. And a number of other devs, at least on the first few pages that I read thoroughly, seem to be in favor of leaving the forum open for comments. Personally, I want to just go to the Commercial section, see what's new, read some comments, maybe ask a question... and that's it. One stop shopping. I would prefer to not have to go elsewhere to see the ensuing discussion.
Human interaction produces disagreements and arguments from time to time (thanks, Captain Obvious). But I don't see it as an epidemic here. (It almost seems pandemic on YouTube -- sheesh!) I see most folks and devs as courteous, thoughtful, engaging and quite pleasant as a whole.
Leave the Commercial Forum as is. Mods can jump in if necessary.
There, I have resolved everything.  This should be the last post needed.


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## catsass (Oct 1, 2015)

drumman said:


> thanks, Captain Obvious


Oh, wow! Does _he_ post here?


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## D.Salzenberg (Oct 1, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Then please explain to me why over the last 10 years every library Colin has demoed, and he did them for several companies before he became part of 8dio, sounds great. Please explain to me why over the last 15 years every library T,J, has demoed, and he did them for several companies before he became part of EW, sounds great. How come every library Roberto touches (where is he these days, btw?) sounds great.
> 
> There are no "secret tricks" to ANY of these libraries. There is only knowledge of what they do and do not do well, skill, practice, musical knowledge, and talent.


Jay, what you say is true, but it's also why it's a problem at the same time.
The guys you mention are as you say incredibly skilled and talented and will no doubt produce amazing sounding demos for any company they choose to work with. Exactly the same way that Jeff Beck or David Gilmour could pick up any cheap strat and make it sound incredible also. The problem is that while I can't play like Beck or Gilmour I can walk into a music store and try a strat and see how I can make it sound and how I can male it do what I need it to do with the skills I have now. Obviously if I practise a million hours and have the talent it will sound better in a few years but that's irrelevant to my decision to purchase today.
I cannot do the same with a sample library/virtual instrument and make a decision to purchase based on how I personally can make it work today.
The fact that incredibly talented and skilled professionals can make either any sample library or any strat sound amazing is irrelevant to how useful the instrument will be to me.
The vital differences are that I can try out a guitar, and even sell it if I still made a mistake. I can't even try the sample library.
So if I have to make a decision to buy based on demos by people so skilled they could make a jv1080 sound amazing, how is that of any help whatsoever?


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 1, 2015)

I get that and it is a fair point but surely anyone trying to sell any kind of tools wants people to know what they are capable of in skilled hands, not unskilled. And if the demos were done by ordinary users, you KNOW what would happen. They would say "Gee, that library doesn't sound very good. 
. It's a tough line to walk


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## D.Salzenberg (Oct 1, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> I get that and it is a fair point but surely anyone trying to sell any kind of tools wants people to know what they are capable of in skilled hands, not unskilled. And if the demos were done by ordinary users, you KNOW what would happen. They would say "Gee, that library doesn't sound very good.
> . It's a tough line to walk


Yes, it's a tough one, and of course any company naturally want the demos to sound as best they can which is fair enough, as you say if they get Joe average to do demos, then we know what the response will be.
I think the only answer is to try and work towards some system which doesn't put the consumer at such a disadvantage. I know East West are doing the subscription thing, so maybe a trial one month subscription would help.


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## atw (Oct 1, 2015)

As i said before, i wish more devs would do things like try-sound or try-packs or similar.

The Ewql composer cloud for one month (free) is a good idea. But you can't test everything which interests you.
Either you have to wait until they change the 4 instruments or you have to pay just for testing (Gold).
And i don't like the idea of paying just for testing.
And i think they don't change the 4 instruments so fast.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Oct 1, 2015)

The way 8Dio and Impact Soundworks have been doing it with their try packs is a good approach IMO.

8Dio has a free try pack for their Agitato violins where they simply limited the range of the instrument. There's no danger of the demo being cracked and pirated because there's simply nothing to unlock. It keeps them on the safe side but at the same time gives you a great opportunity to play the instrument and see how it feels, how it blends with your other stuff, how it reacts to your plugins, if the workflow is working for you etc.

Impact Soundworks has a big ass collection of assorted sounds and patches from their libraries. Again just bits and pieces, nothing complete, but enough to try it out and get a really good idea what the products actually are about and how they work in practice. I don't see why this method shouldn't be standard.


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 1, 2015)

Well, EW DOES have a one month free trial and then you ca also go month by month so:

1. You can find out if Play works well for you on your rig and try a few libraries for free for a month.
2. If it does, then for a small amount relatively, you can try a lot of libraries.

Certainly that is a big step forward for those who want to try EW/Play but are unsure.


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## Vastman (Oct 1, 2015)

As i suggested earlier, allowing a company to selectively lock their thread deals with both slices of the argument.

However i think this entire thread is rediculous....if you look at all the threads currently on this section of our board only the Albion thread had gone viral... And personally i feel strongly that it had been a FUN ride... In any community there are a few jerks... And i freely admit to have gotten out of line responding to what i felt was jerk behaviour. But all in all the mega thread is full of good natured fantasizing and anticipation. I've enjoyed the past few days awaiting and participating in the foreplay.

I don't like the idea of our freedoms of exchange to be controlled by fiat. I would imagine a poll of developers will find most will agree with keeping the forum open.

The level of involvement of developers is up to them. Those that communicate effectively engender good will...people like Andrew and Urs are famous and beloved for their approachability. Others choose if and when they respond which is their right.

This issue arose from egos among the users and not the developers... A strong dose of humility and less ranting about historical garbage and personal me me me ism's would go a long easy towards what we really need...

I really love this place and the exchanges I've had...maybe I'm just too new and haven't acquired scars... For that I'm glad...

I'm out...


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## D.Salzenberg (Oct 2, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Well, EW DOES have a one month free trial and then you ca also go month by month so:
> 
> 1. You can find out if Play works well for you on your rig and try a few libraries for free for a month.
> 2. If it does, then for a small amount relatively, you can try a lot of libraries.
> ...


Jay, I think this is a very good step forwards, as long as it doesn't then develop into a subscription only system like Adobe have. As long as there will always be the option to buy the product once you have done a subscription to test it out then for me that is great.
I have a feeling though that developers who use Kontakt are probably not going to offer this idea due to the lack of security and wide availability of cracked versions of Kontakt.


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## atw (Oct 2, 2015)

Vastman said:


> ...sure it got a bit crazy but it also has been FUN...


Calling people STUPID isn't fun for me, maybe for you. Even if it was hiding behind question marks.



Vastman said:


> Getting upset because a mod asks us to keep it on topic is just the "MEMEME" syndrom run amok... respect those giving their time to make this forum work... I respect and appreciate all they do... those that don't are ego driven aholes...


Another good example... 



Vastman said:


> I have ProjetSam OE 1&2... I can make all the multi's and track templates from Albion 1 to blow OE 1/2 away...


For me it looks like you bashing other developer's product just to make a certain product of your beloved company looks better.


Many of your posts looks like pure spaming/pushing in that thread. Some dev-friends behave and some not, that's how it looks like!!!

Not many people were saying something against certain tactics in that thread.
I felt like fighting against a horde. You won't have luck to chase me away. I will defend my position as customer/user.

I think the only thing against such spaming/pushing is maybe more participation of the users.
You can lock the thread, make it read only, build a timer per post, let it open to all, etc... it won't help so much, i think.
Just more participation, of course it will bring it on top too, but the quality inside the thread will change.
If more would participate, then it would bring some balance, especially if the content is misleading or wrong.
So new users will see better advises/options.


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## atw (Oct 2, 2015)

I opened another thread about anonymous "Likes" yesterday. Maybe that could help.
If the lack of participation is because someone is in charge or fears the mass of the dev-friends, hesitates, etc...


I think the Like System can be a very strong factor.


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## atw (Oct 2, 2015)

I have moved this post to another thread._ (It's easier to update.)
http://vi-control.net/community/thr...s-his-own-sample-libraries-instruments.48898/_


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 2, 2015)

D.Salzenberg said:


> Jay, I think this is a very good step forwards, as long as it doesn't then develop into a subscription only system like Adobe have. As long as there will always be the option to buy the product once you have done a subscription to test it out then for me that is great.



All i can tell you is that Doug has not even hinted to me that he is planning to eventually go that route, but of course I cannot promise that will never happen. 

But he _does_ listen to customers, especially the ones who participate on the Soundsonline forum. Originally he told me that the Composer Cloud would not be available on a month to month basis with people being able to change library choices because it would be too much work for the sales team and it was a great deal already. And then, one day, BOOM, that was available, after many there requested it.


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## playz123 (Oct 2, 2015)

@atw, let's be honest here....it was you who was directly responsible for many of the comments thrown your way in
the Spitfire thread when you continued to demand information that was not yet available, and you then replied to those people who were advising you in a derogatory and confrontational way. And you are starting it again in a reply above. So please don't play all innocent and offended when someone responds negatively to some of your comments. On this forum you will get what you give, and sometimes it's wise to consider what you post before you post it. Right?


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## atw (Oct 2, 2015)

I already stated my position in many places in some threads.

I didn't say anything bad against someone.

Vastman himself said:


Vastman said:


> And i freely admit to have gotten out of line responding to what i felt was jerk behaviour



Well if he is so kind, then i will do the same and stop it here with that. 



playz123 said:


> On this forum you will get what you give, and sometimes it's wise to consider what you post before you post it. Right?


Of course i agree!


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## Vastman (Oct 2, 2015)

atw... you twist peoples words and seem to like to stir up ugliness... if there is one person who seems to consistently be a "jerk" on this forum it is you... indeed, this entire issue resulted from your spewing repetitively and the inordinate time good folks around here tried to respond to your rants.

My sig, "we make the future" is derived from the fact that we, as humans are rapidly destroying our planet... and it is "we" who have the moral responsibility of setting it right by rapidly developing renewables and shifting to a more sustainable society... twisting my sig to be some ego driven statement is exactly why your communication style puts you in the category of flamer from where I sit... You go on and on about garbage, make attributions or insinuations where none were intended, spewing negativity as no one has done around here in a long time. To paint me as a Spitfire spammer is also ridiculous...I have discussed my dislike of their dinky UI, high prices and other issues over the years. This thread is special, as they've gone out of the way to offer us an amazing deal and I was very excited about speading the goods. I took my time to try and communicate logically and informatively with you and get insults in return...Grow up.

At this point, if I were running things you would be banned...and in my 65 years I've never said that before...


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## atw (Oct 2, 2015)

If that's the story of your signature Vastman, then excuse me for that connection.
I will immediatly delete that part. But the rest stays.


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## sleepy hollow (Oct 9, 2015)

If the 'Commercial Announcements' would be turned into a read-only forum, I'd probably stop going there. I really find the lively discussions helpful and I think that tight moderation is the way to go.


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