# StaffPad has lost its way



## Jett Hitt

I use StaffPad every day. I am a huge fan, but this latest update was a great big nothing for me. The sole addition that I was pretty happy about was the ability to finally be able to drag rests and change their duration. Otherwise, no new libraries, no improvement to handwriting recognition, no improvement to the very compressed volume levels, no improvement to the Berlin libraries which took a hit in the Oct 2020 update. There is nothing here for composers. Oh, I can see where the ability to have a vocal track in your score could be handy for composing, but in general, I have a DAW for that. The addition of effects also isn't all that helpful because I can't use StaffPad's output as a final product anyway because of the compressed dynamics, and other than a bit of reverb, I don't use effects in orchestral music anyway. At the very least, I would have hoped that the addition of audio would have produced a more user-friendly mixer, but we are still stuck triple tapping on each staff to change its settings.

I am left scratching my head, wondering what they have been doing for the past year. Even the transcription feature that was touted in Apple's April event got scrapped. It would seem that Musescore's acquisition of StaffPad has not proven to be fruitful. Maybe since he is no longer a stakeholder in the company, DWH has lost his fire.


----------



## ism

There are interesting use cases I can think of. For instance, composing a chord progression or some other kind of sketch in Logic and OACE or Time Macro or some other kind of library that really needs a proper DAW to improvise and noodle with, and then bring it into staffpad to develop some more sophisticated voice leading on the train.

Moreover, it seems at least a step towards a more integrated workflow, especially since its now possible to run an instance of staffpad on an m1 Mac.


----------



## Jett Hitt

ism said:


> Moreover, it seems at least a step towards a more integrated workflow, especially since its now possible to run an instance of staffpad on an m1 Mac.


But you still can't enter notes on the Mac, right?


----------



## ism

Jett Hitt said:


> But you still can't enter notes on the Mac, right?


I don’t think its at all useful to open staffpad on a mac yet, just very suggestive.


----------



## emasters

I find the ability to add audio to a score, very useful. Many times I have wanted to take non-traditional synth-based media from my DAW, and quickly orchestrate it inside StaffPad. This feature now makes it quick and easy to do. Clearly, this is only one (of potentially many) use cases. I could see how viewing StaffPad as a traditional notation app, adding audio would be less exciting. But I suspect Musescore is looking to apply StaffPad in a mush broader context (thus the new effects, adding vocals, etc.). I remain optimistic that the Transcription feature demo'd by DWH is still coming. Seems like a very large undertaking, so not surprised it pushed out. Hope it's still coming - would be a very welcome addition to StaffPad.


----------



## Saxer

It‘s developing to a tool for working composers. Jobs like adding a string or brass section to a song delivered as audio are very common and need a ton of workarounds in other notation programs. 
Not finding your personal wishes fulfilled in this update doesn‘t mean they are loosing track.


----------



## MadLad

Jett Hitt said:


> Otherwise, no new libraries, no improvement to handwriting recognition, no improvement to the very compressed volume levels, no improvement to the Berlin libraries which took a hit in the Oct 2020 update.


What do you mean by very compressed volume levels? Do you mean specific libraries or all of them?


----------



## Jett Hitt

MadLad said:


> What do you mean by very compressed volume levels? Do you mean specific libraries or all of them?


All of them. The sound doesn't begin to compare to the DAW counterparts of these libraries.


----------



## Markrs

I found the update consistent with a desire to find a broader market especially after the purchase by musescore.

Musescore is very popular and the majority are probably not orchestral composers, but composers of all types. So what they have done by allowing audio and effects is open this up to people that want elements of a DAW along with the ability to add in Orchestral elements using notation.

In should say that given I can use Cubasis with the Staffpad output and still stay within iOS this wasn't an update I needed myself.


----------



## Dewdman42

the audio track is of no use to me either. It has nothing to do with why I just bought Staffpad, nothing whatsoever. I hope in the future the StaffPad product will continue to evolve with regards to handwritten composition.


----------



## fakemaxwell

I, too, don't understand why Staffpad is introducing new features that are done better by countless DAWs when there's a host of buggy nonsense that is being ignored.


----------



## Michael Antrum

I can see that the audio function will be useful (to me at least) for transcription purposes, but there are other areas that needed more urgent attention.

I must admit I was rather looking forward to the audio transcription that was mentioned previously would appear, but in any case I welcome the update, but would hope for some more fundamental notation improvements next time.

Sad to see cross-staff hasn't made it in. Harp and piano writing in particular is a pain without it.

I can see myself using the tempo mapping a bit when taking a piano improv to full orchestration too....

Still my favourite software purchase for many a year......


----------



## sundrowned

I quite like some of the features. But partly agree.

More generally though I'm surprised there aren't more competitors doing similar things to staffpad. Dorico for example. They could integrate the iconica series to work in a similar way to staffpad. Or any of the other notation apps. Maybe open up a playback engine to third party developers.


----------



## Insert.Coin

In my opinion it‘s overly dramatic to say they’ve lost their way. This was being called the audio update since their preview last spring. I would imagine the deadline has been end of year, and some other features didn’t make it in time. Rather than say they’ve lost their fire, it could be that they want to release something stable and some features didnt make the cut yet. 

They‘ve also mentioned how time consuming it is to add new libraries. I was hopeful there could be some new additions as well, but this was never officially mentioned as being a part of this update, so it was simply hopeful and not realistic.

To my knowledge this is the first time features like this have been added into any sort of notation program, which may be more difficult to do than it seems, and perhaps more difficult than they originally anticipated. To their credit so far the update appears to have been very well done with regards to ease of use and workflow. It’s impressive that they would even take on the challenge that no other companies have, and as I see it, this only adds to staffpads usefulness and makes it viable for so many more situations.


----------



## gussunkri

I am still updating so I haven't actually tested the new features yet, but I have been very much looking forward to this addition. What this update means (hopefully) is that all that money I've sunk into DAW-based sample libraries will become more useful again. I've almost completely switched over to composing in Staffpad, it makes me so much more creative, but I occasionally miss "speciality" sounds from my DAW. This update will finally allow me to add some key Zebra sounds, some more esoteric orchestral sounds (like Spitfire OACE and OT Modus), as well as finally letting me have my guitar playing in my compositions again. I can then program a drum kit in my DAW, play electric guitar and electric bass guitar, and then go on and do the rest of the composition on Staffpad. To me, this seems like it gets me the best of both worlds.


----------



## skt

I totally agree with this post.
Since 2020, I have used Staffpad commercially.
In the meantime, I have consistently presented numerous bugs and errors to Staffpad-team, but they have only soothed me.
Updates related to your bugs and errors are a very distant future.
I knew to add new features to this update. But that's all! I can't believe it.
What is the essence of Staffpad? It's just new functions?
I don't think so. The essence of Staffpad is that anyone should be free to compose with wonderful instruments without stress from bugs and errors.
I don't want to fight any more errors!

These are the instruments I bought.
(Berlin strings/cine brass/cine perc./cine piano/cine strings/cine wind/cine voxos/amb. One)


----------



## servandus

No doubt this seems to be a wonderful update (and, from a technical POV, surely a really big one)... but it's also as wonderful as useless for me, since I use Staffpad exactly as the OP does. That said, I understand how exciting the new audio capabilities could be for a lot of composers, and it definitely opens up a lot of possibilities, no question about that. I think nobody would have felt disappointed by this update if other problems had been addressed first.

But if you look at this with a little perspective, this isn't actually new for Staffpad. Before improving handwriting recognition they ventured into the sample library territory, before improving the workflow with these sample libraries they worked in audio integration, and it's already announced that before improving this (if needed) they will go for audio recognition in the next update.

While I can totally understand that, no matter how brilliant the original concept is, a small company like this will not thrive unless they make the app appealing to a broader market (making it available for ipad first, and adding all these new audio features now has been essential in this respect), the fact is that they could very well end up with an app that offers a lot of possibilities, but no depth in any of them. That would inevitably lead to being seen as a powerful toy for amateurs, rather than a specialized, professional tool for composers (which may actually be a brilliant commercial decision; not questioning that).

So, in the end, there's audio integration right now and that's great, but still no detailed explanation of what articulations are included in each library and how to trigger them in the score, a lot of sample editing issues in every sample library, no coupling of notation & automation data in copy/paste operations (and no copy/paste available in the automation lanes either), no visual aid on the screen when trying to line up notation with the actual time positions of nodes in the automation curves, no dynamic balance from ppp to fff among different libraries (even of the same developer, and not even in different articulations of the same libraries), no mixer (even a simple one would have done it)... no nothing. Well, "pizz to arco" in the symbols palette. Audio is great, but this is obviously frustrating.

For my part, I anticipated this (as Insert.Coin pointed out, from the beginning this was called "audio update" for a reason), and started to work under the hood with the third party libraries and the playback system. Staffpad architecture actually offers A LOT of customization, but 1) it is completely undocumented, unsupported and apparently not recommended, and 2) it shouldn't be seen as a way to fix/do what is actually the developer's job. 

Still, the huge potential of this app is hard to resist, and I'm happy to support the company with my purchases. I just hope that, once they're done expanding the app with all these new features and grow their user base to a resonable extent, they finally take time to address all these issues.


----------



## Dewdman42

servandus said:


> Staffpad architecture actually offers A LOT of customization, but 1) it is completely undocumented, unsupported and apparently not recommended,


what is this?


----------



## visualride

I for one am not going to shoe away this gift horse. Along the lines of this audio layer update, a video track to sync to would have been a bit helpful.


----------



## visualride

I just had a quick musical thought, sang in a StaffPad recording, and am now able to start composing to it right away. Handy.


----------



## ism

Well even if this doesn't deliver any value for yourself personally, the glass half full way to look at it is that: it does deliver value for others, and if it attracts a larger user base with broader use cases, then it's at least possible that this will result in more investment that will, ultimately benefit everyone.


----------



## Dewdman42

My view is that they added this feature in order to sell Elements libraries. FWIW. 

Anyway, I just think its important to point out that I personally don't need another DAW. I already have paid a lot of money setting up several DAW's with numerous expensive sample libraries, etc. The only reason I spent any money at all on StaffPad, was because of its entirely unique ability to use an iPad and pencil to write notes on staves. If they continue to stray away from that, it will be a disappointment for me...and if they are listening, I have no use whatsoever for any of the Elements libraries. 

cheers


----------



## Jett Hitt

It may be that once the transcription feature is released, this will have all been worth it. The function of the new audio feature is impressive. It is pretty slick. But instead of an "audio" update, what we needed was a "let's-fix-all-the-crap-that-doesn't-work" update or "let's-improve-the-workflow" update. My number one complaint is the same one that the guys at Scoring Notes stated in their review: We need another method of note entry. Note entry in StaffPad remains primitive and very flawed. The algorithm is simply way too finicky and unpredictable. I feel like a Kindergartener drawing on a tablet with a crayon.

If the things that @servandus mentioned had been addressed, this would have been a welcome and eye-popping update. But as is, StaffPad has become a bit like OT. Instead of fixing what they have already done, they just release another library. There is just so much stuff that doesn't work right. The Lasso tool only works for me about half the time, and the overall organization of the tools is a mess. The hand gesture for Undo also only works about half the time. We got a fancy new Pizz tool, but by the time I open the tool menu and search for it in that unorganized mess of buttons, I could have simply typed pizz. into my score. There are so many things that don't work correctly. (BTW, since the update, StaffPad has crashed more times than it has in the past six months. It always happens when I change documents.)

I could write a novel about the things that don't work as they should and the poor organization of the menus, but I'll save my keystrokes. The bottom line is that if Staffpad is ever going to be more than an expensive toy, it has to embrace quality control, improve the note entry, streamline the workflow, and bring the sound up to a professional level.


----------



## CyberPunk

Jett Hitt said:


> I use StaffPad every day. I am a huge fan, but this latest update was a great big nothing for me. The sole addition that I was pretty happy about was the ability to finally be able to drag rests and change their duration. Otherwise, no new libraries, no improvement to handwriting recognition, no improvement to the very compressed volume levels, no improvement to the Berlin libraries which took a hit in the Oct 2020 update. There is nothing here for composers. Oh, I can see where the ability to have a vocal track in your score could be handy for composing, but in general, I have a DAW for that. The addition of effects also isn't all that helpful because I can't use StaffPad's output as a final product anyway because of the compressed dynamics, and other than a bit of reverb, I don't use effects in orchestral music anyway. At the very least, I would have hoped that the addition of audio would have produced a more user-friendly mixer, but we are still stuck triple tapping on each staff to change its settings.
> 
> I am left scratching my head, wondering what they have been doing for the past year. Even the transcription feature that was touted in Apple's April event got scrapped. It would seem that Musescore's acquisition of StaffPad has not proven to be fruitful. Maybe since he is no longer a stakeholder in the





Jett Hitt said:


> I use StaffPad every day. I am a huge fan, but this latest update was a great big nothing for me. The sole addition that I was pretty happy about was the ability to finally be able to drag rests and change their duration. Otherwise, no new libraries, no improvement to handwriting recognition, no improvement to the very compressed volume levels, no improvement to the Berlin libraries which took a hit in the Oct 2020 update. There is nothing here for composers. Oh, I can see where the ability to have a vocal track in your score could be handy for composing, but in general, I have a DAW for that. The addition of effects also isn't all that helpful because I can't use StaffPad's output as a final product anyway because of the compressed dynamics, and other than a bit of reverb, I don't use effects in orchestral music anyway. At the very least, I would have hoped that the addition of audio would have produced a more user-friendly mixer, but we are still stuck triple tapping on each staff to change its settings.
> 
> I am left scratching my head, wondering what they have been doing for the past year. Even the transcription feature that was touted in Apple's April event got scrapped. It would seem that Musescore's acquisition of StaffPad has not proven to be fruitful. Maybe since he is no longer a stakeholder in the company, DWH has lost his fire.


We got a lot of audio tools now, which I do not mind at all, the only composition tools we got was:
dragging and changing note durations, pizz/arco is now faster input, and the ability to work on transpose score with no key signature, let's remember though that Staffpad team is small and we are getting all this things for free. while other companies now even charge a little bit of money for updates. 

I do not know where they will head with musescore, I do not think that they have lost its way, they are just trying to be probably more appealing to other people and other markets.

At the end is just a tool like other software, it is up to you to make the best out of it.


----------



## Jett Hitt

CyberPunk said:


> We got a lot of audio tools now, which I do not mind at all, the only composition tools we got was:
> dragging and changing note durations, pizz/arco is now faster input, and the ability to work on transpose score with no key signature, let's remember though that Staffpad team is small and we are getting all this things for free. while other companies now even charge a little bit of money for updates.


I don't give a damn about free. I'll pay for it. Just make it work.


----------



## servandus

Dewdman42 said:


> what is this?



Well, this is a real shame, if you ask me. Let me explain.

Staffpad streams all the audio samples included with each 3rd party library from a single opus file containing the licensed recordings. The samples used by every articulation are there in sequential order, and Staffpad uses a look-up table in the header of the file to access each individual sample. It then uses the sfz format to build every articulation/patch (all the info about general volume, sample mapping, dynamic layers, crossfading values, etc. is there in the sfz file, but there is no audio content in there, so if you know the syntax, you can edit the file to do whatever you want with the samples). Every articulation is then triggered by the playback engine according to the definitions stored in xml files that use a proprietary, yet very simple and intuitive syntax to link every sfz file with a particular notation symbol.

It's a very smart system, and it really seems to be designed for customization and collaboration, much in the way open source projects usually work. This is actually surprising, since Staffpad as a company has always been extremely opaque about how the third party libs are implemented.

Now the good news is that, *If you are on Windows*, you have access to all these files, so if you are the adventurous type, don't mind messing with system files which could potentially damage the installation of the libs, and you're willing to spend some (maybe a lot of) time learning the sfz and def.xml syntax and how the whole system works, you can do virtually anything you want with the samples.

So far, I have been able to trigger articulations which are included yet unused by the app (some hidden gems in there, btw), fix timing and dynamic issues, default to detaché/tonguing instead of legato, change how every single articulation is triggered to suit your needs, minimize the effect of unwanted ringing releases, create custom articulations, layer them, apply legato transitions to every articulation you want (like you do in the sine player... if it works for you), combine different libraries (does not work when layering though), create custom text to trigger all this at will (a bit like "text expression maps"), and much more. You can even isolate legato transitions if you like to hear the original recordings (see this post) (Edited the link)

It's simply unbelievable what you can do with this app. It's even more unbelievable why they are not exploiting this as a top feature. I guess it has to do with the fact that none of this is possible in the ipad version (afaik you can't edit app configuration files), or maybe just because it demystifies its "miraculous" playback engine, but nothing is really stopping them to figure out a way to make this available for both platforms. I mean, they could have built a whole community of users sharing custom presets, templates, etc. by now, but it seems that none of this is in their plans, at least in the short term.

As I said, everything is undocumented, so I had to spend a ridiculous amount of time deciphering all this, but once you understand how it works, it is extremely easy to create your custom presets using just the text editor of your choice.

At one point, I even thought about putting all this in the form of an online course or something alike, but I won't risk my time and energy unless they document it first. In fact, I vaguely hope that they would eventually implement proper editors within the app itself in order to simplify the task, and make it available as a feature to all users, rather than an adventure for a few freaks.

Let's see. Maybe the good people at MuseScore get this right once they release their own player. All the magic is just getting rid of the tirany of realtime playback when you already have all the midi data at your disposal, something every DAW should have implemented as an alternative playback mode by now. This in turn would have transformed how samples are edited and scripted. In any case, Staffpad got this right, that's for sure.


----------



## Dani Donadi

I agree with the original post, I don't need Staffpad to be another DAW, what's appealing is the handwriting capability for a traditional approach to composing, I'm disappointed that it didn't get improved. Yes audio is cool, but a way to slave to MTC would've been just as good, maybe in the future.


----------



## muratkayi

servandus said:


> I mean, they could have built a whole community of users sharing custom presets, templates, etc. b


This sounds so awesome!

Apart from that, I have spent the last year in a state of continuous befuddled surprise at how little I knew about the scope and ambition of DWH's vision for this app. I think the people at Staffpad are among the very few developers who made an impression that leads me to believe they really know what they want their product to do and be.

Much more so than other software companies I closely follow. Also, I just never encountered that many or crucial problems with the app. I actually think note entry is a breeze. I feel a bit sorry to put it like this, seeing that so many people complain about the implementation of the one feature that sets Staffpad apart from other apps. Not for one second did I wish I could enter notes via midi. Many years ago I used Capella which had a great way to map note entry to the computer keyboard (not the musical one), and I was kinda fluent in that. I haven't even looked back to that entry method so far.

I did have a nasty problem with audio clicks in an export (in the project file, too). I wrote to support. They acknowledged the bug. Then nothing happened. For months. When I had all but forgotten about the whole thing I get an email with a notification that it should be fixed (it was, still is).

The team is small. My guess is, very small. Talking about "appeal to broader audience": DWH himself stated in an interview once that there's smarter ways to make money than to create a composition app. There basically is no broad audience for that, at least compared to other markets for apps.

So, give it time. Audio integration kicks ass for many of us. It is the answer to quite a few wishes I made silently. It might absolutely not be for you. I get that. Also, I have my own list of things I want improved.
But to say that this team out of all the teams out there had lost its way is the sort of exaggerated lamentation that makes it hard to keep listening, for me at least.


----------



## sundrowned

servandus said:


> Well, this is a real shame, if you ask me. Let me explain.
> 
> Staffpad streams all the audio samples included with each 3rd party library from a single opus file containing the licensed recordings. The samples used by every articulation are there in sequential order, and Staffpad uses a look-up table in the header of the file to access each individual sample. It then uses the sfz format to build every articulation/patch (all the info about general volume, sample mapping, dynamic layers, crossfading values, etc. is there in the sfz file, but there is no audio content in there, so if you know the syntax, you can edit the file to do whatever you want with the samples). Every articulation is then triggered by the playback engine according to the definitions stored in xml files that use a proprietary, yet very simple and intuitive syntax to link every sfz file with a particular notation symbol.
> 
> It's a very smart system, and it really seems to be designed for customization and collaboration, much in the way open source projects usually work. This is actually surprising, since Staffpad as a company has always been extremely opaque about how the third party libs are implemented.
> 
> Now the good news is that, *If you are on Windows*, you have access to all these files, so if you are the adventurous type, don't mind messing with system files which could potentially damage the installation of the libs, and you're willing to spend some (maybe a lot of) time learning the sfz and def.xml syntax and how the whole system works, you can do virtually anything you want with the samples.
> 
> So far, I have been able to trigger articulations which are included yet unused by the app (some hidden gems in there, btw), fix timing and dynamic issues, default to detaché/tonguing instead of legato, change how every single articulation is triggered to suit your needs, minimize the effect of unwanted ringing releases, create custom articulations, layer them, apply legato transitions to every articulation you want (like you do in the sine player... if it works for you), combine different libraries (does not work when layering though), create custom text to trigger all this at will (a bit like "text expression maps"), and much more. You can even isolate legato transitions if you like to hear the original recordings (see this post) (Edited the link)
> 
> It's simply unbelievable what you can do with this app. It's even more unbelievable why they are not exploiting this as a top feature. I guess it has to do with the fact that none of this is possible in the ipad version (afaik you can't edit app configuration files), or maybe just because it demystifies its "miraculous" playback engine, but nothing is really stopping them to figure out a way to make this available for both platforms. I mean, they could have built a whole community of users sharing custom presets, templates, etc. by now, but it seems that none of this is in their plans, at least in the short term.
> 
> As I said, everything is undocumented, so I had to spend a ridiculous amount of time deciphering all this, but once you understand how it works, it is extremely easy to create your custom presets using just the text editor of your choice.
> 
> At one point, I even thought about putting all this in the form of an online course or something alike, but I won't risk my time and energy unless they document it first. In fact, I vaguely hope that they would eventually implement proper editors within the app itself in order to simplify the task, and make it available as a feature to all users, rather than an adventure for a few freaks.
> 
> Let's see. Maybe the good people at MuseScore get this right once they release their own player. All the magic is just getting rid of the tirany of realtime playback when you already have all the midi data at your disposal, something every DAW should have implemented as an alternative playback mode by now. This in turn would have transformed how samples are edited and scripted. In any case, Staffpad got this right, that's for sure.


Amazing. 

A daw with notation and an open source playback engine is the dream. It should exist though.


----------



## Gingerbread

From my perspective, audio is a nice-to-have, but not a core mission feature. Personally, I doubt I will ever use it, and it's not among any reasons I bought Staffpad. For me, Staffpad is purely a composing tool, not a production tool. I'm sure audio will be useful to _somebody_...just not me.

I echo the sentiment that nice-to-haves should probably wait until the core mission features are bolstered, handwriting recognition being first above all. Just my two cents.


----------



## CologneComposer

It is extremly interesting, what @servandus wrote about customizing the playback options. It is a pitty, that this is not documented. By the way: where are these files stored on my surface?


----------



## sundrowned

CologneComposer said:


> It is extremly interesting, what @servandus wrote about customizing the playback options. It is a pitty, that this is not documented. By the way: where are these files stored on my surface?


C:\Users\[username]\AppData\Local\Packages\StaffPadLtd.StaffPad_[some numbers]\LocalCache\PurchasedInstruments\...

The xml files are in the top level instrument folders, the sfz files inside the folders and the .opus audio files in the headers of .sts files.


----------



## servandus

I strongly encourage you to make backups of every file you edit, so that you can revert to the original configuration quickly should something go wrong (*) (you can always reinstall the library from the app in the worst case scenario, so there's no danger of screwing things permanently afaik)

My father just got a heart surgery, and I'm right now kind of locked at the hospital due to the covid restrictions here in Spain, but if everything goes well and you give me a couple of days, I could open a new thread and share some findings, so that you can further experiment with them.

(*) EDIT: the same applies to your custom files. If you don't make backups, an unexpected library update could overwrite them.


----------



## muratkayi

servandus said:


> I strongly encourage you to make backups of every file you edit, so that you can revert to the original configuration quickly should something go wrong (*) (you can always reinstall the library from the app in the worst case scenario, so there's no danger of screwing things permanently afaik)
> 
> My father just got a heart surgery, and I'm right now kind of locked at the hospital due to the covid restrictions here in Spain, but if everything goes well and you give me a couple of days, I could open a new thread and share some findings, so that you can further experiment with them.
> 
> (*) EDIT: the same applies to your custom files. If you don't make backups, an unexpected library update could overwrite them.


All the best to you and your father!


----------



## CologneComposer

Indeed it would be great to have a special thread on this special subject. Thanks a lot for the Information. Wishing you and your Father all the best.


----------



## servandus

Thank you, guys. Everything seems to be going well after the surgery (fingers crossed). Will create a dedicated thread as soon as I'm back home and have some rest.


----------



## cmillar

Hmm.... I stopped using StaffPad a year ago because I was losing too much time just trying to get it to decipher some handwriting things. Good at some things, but incredibly frustrating compared to just getting out the pencil and score paper, and then using good old Sibelius for finishing things off.

But, good luck to StaffPad in it's endeavors and nice to see that it works well for some of you. 

Whatever it takes to get some real music out to some REAL people. 

Another thing I'm not keen on is everyone losing our way and thinking that just composing something and hearing it played back in StaffPad is the 'end-all'.

We need to keep the art of live music happening...not the art of virtual music.


----------



## jonnybutter

Jett Hitt said:


> There is just so much stuff that doesn't work right. The Lasso tool only works for me about half the time, and the overall organization of the tools is a mess. The hand gesture for Undo also only works about half the time.


Can corroborate re: the lasso tool selection (double tap on pencil) and the gesture undo. Also, tuplet recognition only works about half the time as well. When the latter works, it works very very well (amazingly well actually) but it often doesn’t work at all. I’ve turned off the auto tuplet feature for this reason, but I still can’t even get the correct menu to pop up a lot of the time. Caveat: I’m on an iPad Pro, not a Surface.


----------



## Jett Hitt

jonnybutter said:


> Can corroborate re: the lasso tool and the gesture undo. Also, tuplet recognition only works about half the time as well. When the latter works, it works very very well (amazingly well actually) but it often doesn’t work at all. I’ve turned off the auto tuplet feature for this reason, but I still can’t even get the correct menu to pop up a lot of the time. Caveat: I’m on an iPad Pro, not a Surface.


Yes, the auto tuplet feature has been broken for a really long time. Long ago I asked for a tuplet tool that would allow the user to simply enter a value, i.e. 3:2 or 5:4. It would be so much simpler. Instead, I can spend a lot of time trying to enter 14 16ths in the time of 8, or whatever.


----------



## Leandro Gardini

Dewdman42 said:


> My view is that they added this feature in order to sell Elements libraries. FWIW.
> 
> Anyway, I just think its important to point out that I personally don't need another DAW. I already have paid a lot of money setting up several DAW's with numerous expensive sample libraries, etc. The only reason I spent any money at all on StaffPad, was because of its entirely unique ability to use an iPad and pencil to write notes on staves. If they continue to stray away from that, it will be a disappointment for me...and if they are listening, I have no use whatsoever for any of the Elements libraries.
> 
> cheers


I am totally with you on this. I expect them to develop full-fledged notation software since version 1.0 years ago. 
However, their marketing strategy is focused on fulfilling the urge of most composers today to have immediate audio feedback of their compositions. 
Unfortunately, they will be developing more libraries and audio instead of notation features.


----------



## marius_dm

If it works well, the ability to import and tempo map an audio recording is an absolute win for transcribing music. So no, I don't think they lost their way, but they do need to fix the bugs.


----------



## marius_dm

Jett Hitt said:


> All of them. The sound doesn't begin to compare to the DAW counterparts of these libraries.


I assume you have turned Dynamic Compression off in the app settings.


----------



## Jett Hitt

marius_dm said:


> I assume you have turned Dynamic Compression off in the app settings.


Yeah so?


----------



## Denkii

servandus said:


> Well, this is a real shame, if you ask me. Let me explain.
> 
> Staffpad streams all the audio samples included with each 3rd party library from a single opus file containing the licensed recordings. The samples used by every articulation are there in sequential order, and Staffpad uses a look-up table in the header of the file to access each individual sample. It then uses the sfz format to build every articulation/patch (all the info about general volume, sample mapping, dynamic layers, crossfading values, etc. is there in the sfz file, but there is no audio content in there, so if you know the syntax, you can edit the file to do whatever you want with the samples). Every articulation is then triggered by the playback engine according to the definitions stored in xml files that use a proprietary, yet very simple and intuitive syntax to link every sfz file with a particular notation symbol.
> 
> It's a very smart system, and it really seems to be designed for customization and collaboration, much in the way open source projects usually work. This is actually surprising, since Staffpad as a company has always been extremely opaque about how the third party libs are implemented.
> 
> Now the good news is that, *If you are on Windows*, you have access to all these files, so if you are the adventurous type, don't mind messing with system files which could potentially damage the installation of the libs, and you're willing to spend some (maybe a lot of) time learning the sfz and def.xml syntax and how the whole system works, you can do virtually anything you want with the samples.
> 
> So far, I have been able to trigger articulations which are included yet unused by the app (some hidden gems in there, btw), fix timing and dynamic issues, default to detaché/tonguing instead of legato, change how every single articulation is triggered to suit your needs, minimize the effect of unwanted ringing releases, create custom articulations, layer them, apply legato transitions to every articulation you want (like you do in the sine player... if it works for you), combine different libraries (does not work when layering though), create custom text to trigger all this at will (a bit like "text expression maps"), and much more. You can even isolate legato transitions if you like to hear the original recordings (see this post) (Edited the link)
> 
> It's simply unbelievable what you can do with this app. It's even more unbelievable why they are not exploiting this as a top feature. I guess it has to do with the fact that none of this is possible in the ipad version (afaik you can't edit app configuration files), or maybe just because it demystifies its "miraculous" playback engine, but nothing is really stopping them to figure out a way to make this available for both platforms. I mean, they could have built a whole community of users sharing custom presets, templates, etc. by now, but it seems that none of this is in their plans, at least in the short term.
> 
> As I said, everything is undocumented, so I had to spend a ridiculous amount of time deciphering all this, but once you understand how it works, it is extremely easy to create your custom presets using just the text editor of your choice.
> 
> At one point, I even thought about putting all this in the form of an online course or something alike, but I won't risk my time and energy unless they document it first. In fact, I vaguely hope that they would eventually implement proper editors within the app itself in order to simplify the task, and make it available as a feature to all users, rather than an adventure for a few freaks.
> 
> Let's see. Maybe the good people at MuseScore get this right once they release their own player. All the magic is just getting rid of the tirany of realtime playback when you already have all the midi data at your disposal, something every DAW should have implemented as an alternative playback mode by now. This in turn would have transformed how samples are edited and scripted. In any case, Staffpad got this right, that's for sure.


Have you considered reaching out to them so they hook you up with a dev job and you can work on the things that people are complaining about here while they keep focussing on adding new features?
Just saying...sounds like they need a crackhead like you.

On top of my personal list would be better writing recognition and I would not be against an alternative option of entering notes even if that goes against the original vision for Staffpad.
For me personally there's no point in adding features if writing is tedious and often feels hit and miss - sometimes even quite arbitrary as to why it will accept it sometimes and sometimes it won't.

I do understand the desire to widen the feature scope though...I just wish they don't abandon their basics. If the basics aren’t solid, the amount of extra features don’t really matter to me. And I feel like the basics could be better.

And sales wise I’d argue that while yes, new features might attract more customers, if your foundation is flawed, you kill your customer lifetime value because you’ll lose a lot of people who won’t put up with the annoying entry barrier of being able to use the software properly (which will stay annoying even after getting to know it better). One can only hope this development agenda isn’t being forced by corpo musescore with the goal of attracting the highest possible number of new customers to boost sales of the app. That’s a very short sighted strategy but possibly one that’s being followed…


----------



## molemac

Does anyone know anything about singing a melody into Staffpad on an audio track and then converting it to score. This would be a great timesaver . I think there are programs that do that like anthem score so it maybe possible in an update. For me the audio feature in Staffpad is amazing especially with the adaptive tempo . Just sketching in an audio piano part and orchestrating from there with the tempo feel is inspiring.


----------



## DJiLAND

I bought and tried the Staffpad a while ago, but I don't think it's faithful to the most basic things rather than other new features.
Real orchestra-like sound balancing between library instruments and articulation is required.
Now without the Note Performer on the iPAD, a well-tuned balance would be the Staffpad's most powerful weapon. Staffpad has a decent library sound and a musical, intuitive, classic notation style.
However, since the library sound is out of balance, it seems that this is not being used as an advantage.
If this is solved, I think it will be the most powerful and fast tool for studying and sketching ideas. It's not intuitive to open DAW, load a library, and change keyswitches for this.
And there seems to be no cross staff, am I missing something?


----------



## zolhof

molemac said:


> Does anyone know anything about singing a melody into Staffpad on an audio track and then converting it to score.


It was supposed to be in the recent Audio update but didn't make it:



> Coming later this year, we’re bringing audio recognition to StaffPad. This magical feature converts the audio you record or import into StaffPad into usable, useful notation. This works for polyphonic audio sources - like a real acoustic piano or guitar - so there's no need to lug around a MIDI keyboard. On more powerful devices, such as the new M1 iPad Pro, you can even record directly onto an instrument staff, and see the notes appear in realtime.


Source

Skip to 52:36 for a "live" demonstration


----------



## molemac

zolhof said:


> It was supposed to be in the recent Audio update but didn't make it:
> 
> 
> Source
> 
> Skip to 52:36 for a "live" demonstration



Oh wow , that would be amazing thanks


----------



## Jett Hitt

Being featured on an Apple event and then failing to deliver is a pretty serious faceplant. StaffPad has visions of grandeur, but they lack the resources to pull it off. This is why selling to Musescore was a terrible mistake. If they had been bought by Apple or some other large company, they would have had the resources for the development. Instead, they missed the mark and simultaneously failed to fix the old problems.

I have been using the new audio feature for the past couple of days, and it is pretty slick. Very useful in the right context, but all of the usual problems still exist. There seems to have been no attention whatsoever to the playback problems in the existing libraries. I suppose that StaffPad might get incrementally better in time, but for now, I think that we are just stuck with the way it works. The real shame is that the Berlin libraries haven't worked nearly as well since the October 2020 update. I'd go back to that in a heartbeat, but downgrading isn't possible.


----------



## wcreed51

If they had been bought by Apple they'd drop support for PC as the did with Logic...


----------



## Jett Hitt

wcreed51 said:


> If they had been bought by Apple they'd drop support for PC as the did with Logic...


Apple supports lots of things on PC, so I’m not sure that is true.


----------



## Ivan M.

Jett Hitt said:


> If they had been bought by Apple or some other large company, they would have had the resources for the development.


Resources, yes, but big corporations are incredibly slow. Small companies are faster and can respond immediately to customer requests.


----------



## Dewdman42

well let's give them a little time, they are a small company. I once worked for a software startup and I know some of the challenges...it is not easy to make a lot happen with fumes for funding. They are trying to get funding now. They may have to switch their focus in order to find more customers. Businesses are in business to make money. They have to follow the money. I totally get that.

Nonetheless, from my part I can say that the reason I threw down for a new iPad and StaffPad+Berlin over the holidays was simply because it is an entirely unique program that stands apart from just about everything else out there. Notion on the iPad is also not half bad, if you ignore about handwriting recognition. I can actually enter music faster with Notion then with StaffPad honestly. But what I like about staffpad is that its more like a sketch pad in a way, I can scribble all over an empty staff like his long demo video...and then start to sketch in actual notes below that, etc.. and the sound libraries are great, leaps and bounds better then Notion, notwithstanding some of the playback bugs that I have also started running into.

I just hope they keep their eye on the ball for understanding why people use iPads. Mine goes to starbucks or on the train, or whatever...its a thing I can throw on my airpods and get lost in it. I use my note taking apps on the ipad the same way, then go back later to my Mac and make all my sketches, notes, ideas...more pretty looking or whatever. My ipad will never be the thing I will use to produce finished product of any kind, music or non-music. Its just a convenient sketching and idea capturing device. My piano is in storage right now, but after my renovation is done I intend to use the iPad at my piano to sketch in ideas a lot too...but at the end of the day I will nearly always be exporting those to DP or Cubase or whatever DAW I'm into by then...to go from there.

The audio track thing seems like a tangent...a side track...while the rest of the software needs refinement and could use even new features that are more directly related to its market-distinguishing place in the world... But.. if they are able to generate some income from selling elements libraries in some way, then perhaps that will fund more development. That's kind of how it goes you know, they have to make money or the whole thing will die. Don't know how MuseScore even came up with any money for them at all, but it will be interesting to see what they do with it... maybe..,,. Anyway all I can say is, let's just see what they do from here...its too early to draw any conclusions..


----------



## molemac

Jett Hitt said:


> Berlin libraries haven't worked nearly as well since the October 2020 update. I'd go back to that in a heartbeat, but downgrading isn't possible.


Can you please elaborate on this ? What has changed ?


----------



## sundrowned

I do wonder about theIr finances. Can't imagine they make much on the libraries and then it's just a one off app fee.


----------



## MadLad

Well, there's at least five people, including me, who bought almost all of the additional libraries. They probably got some money from that.


----------



## Jett Hitt

molemac said:


> Can you please elaborate on this ? What has changed ?


The overall sound of Berlin was diminished after that update. There was an active discussion about it at the time, though I don’t remember where, maybe the Facebook group. The runs have never triggered correctly since then, and the dynamics became even more compressed. (My tremolos don’t work nearly as well as they once did.) In general, I think what happened is that modifications were made to the playback engine to improve other libraries, and Berlin suffered. This is the problem with having multiple libraries. Comprises have to be made to make them all work.



MadLad said:


> Well, there's at least five people, including me, who bought almost all of the additional libraries. They probably got some money from that.


Yes, if they had just wanted to make money, they would have released more libraries. I would have jumped at Berlin Muted Brass, Special Bows, String and Woodwind SFX, Berlin Symphonic Strings, or even Andea.


----------



## zolhof

MadLad said:


> Well, there's at least five people, including me, who bought almost all of the additional libraries. They probably got some money from that.




View attachment 20220109_162852.mp4


----------



## Jett Hitt

zolhof said:


> View attachment 20220109_162852.mp4


Now that right there is funny!


----------



## muratkayi

zolhof said:


> It was supposed to be in the recent Audio update but didn't make it:


Guys, IIRC, there were supposed to be "two more updates this year" (the year in question being 2021) and the transcription feature was due for the second update which is still to come. That is how I understood it. That is why I, for one, did not expect an audio transcription for the first of the two remaining updates. I think it will come in the second one which in fact got postponed


----------



## servandus

Denkii said:


> Have you considered reaching out to them so they hook you up with a dev job and you can work on the things that people are complaining about here while they keep focussing on adding new features?
> Just saying...sounds like they need a crackhead like you.


I will get in touch with them, but for a different reason. Please see https://vi-control.net/community/threads/custom-playback-rules-in-staffpad-mini-crash-course.119333/post-5022005 (this).

I think this thread would be a great read for the developers. Maybe shockingly revealing for them. People who use Staffpad mainly for sketching ideas complain about buggy handwriting recognition. Those who use it as a notation app complain about not being able to write anything but basic stuff (not to mention proper engraving). People using it for doing quick mockups complain about poor sample editing and playback/workflow issues. And people who want to use it for audio editing are already beginning to complain about not being able to use anything but the provided FXs.

Yet, we all seem to like Staffpad in one way or the other 🤣 Maybe it's not that they lost their way, but they just need to find one (or their way is kind of spiritual, and they're seeking unbound expansion, go figure).

Time will tell. I wish them all the best.


----------



## dcoscina

I truly hope it doesn't veer into the direction of "jack of all trades, master of none"... I'm remaining hopeful about its future.


----------



## OMWaves

Jett Hitt said:


> Being featured on an Apple event and then failing to deliver is a pretty serious faceplant. StaffPad has visions of grandeur, but they lack the resources to pull it off. This is why selling to Musescore was a terrible mistake. If they had been bought by Apple or some other large company, they would have had the resources for the development. Instead, they missed the mark and simultaneously failed to fix the old problems.
> 
> I have been using the new audio feature for the past couple of days, and it is pretty slick. Very useful in the right context, but all of the usual problems still exist. There seems to have been no attention whatsoever to the playback problems in the existing libraries. I suppose that StaffPad might get incrementally better in time, but for now, I think that we are just stuck with the way it works. The real shame is that the Berlin libraries haven't worked nearly as well since the October 2020 update. I'd go back to that in a heartbeat, but downgrading isn't possible.


I, too, would go back to the Dec 2020 version if I have a choice. The current update on Windows, Ver 3.5.2.0, has a number of problems for me working on a Windows 10 PC with a drawing tablet. Here's two:
1. The lasso copy and paste -- needs to tap twice to paste, then it pastes the selection twice, which I would need to delete one of them.
2. The mute and solo staff -- can't select the instrument/staff to mute or solo an instrument on the left of the staff; I would need to go the beginning of the score to select the instrument/staff to mute or solo.

The only thing that I found useful in the latest update is the dragging of the rest to change.

I'm still hopeful that future version will get it right.


----------



## Jett Hitt

OMWaves said:


> I, too, would go back to the Dec 2020 version if I have a choice. The current update on Windows, Ver 3.5.2.0, has a number of problems for me working on a Windows 10 PC with a drawing tablet. Here's two:
> 1. The lasso copy and paste -- needs to tap twice to paste, then it pastes the selection twice, which I would need to delete one of them.
> 2. The mute and solo staff -- can't select the instrument/staff to mute or solo an instrument on the left of the staff; I would need to go the beginning of the score to select the instrument/staff to mute or solo.
> 
> The only thing that I found useful in the latest update is the dragging of the rest to change.
> 
> I'm still hopeful that future version will get it right.


On the iPad, the lasso works fine if you can select the notes, but about half the time, you lasso the notes and nothing is selected. Sometimes it only selects part of the notes, so you do it again, and then it selects one note fewer than it did before. Try again, one note fewer than the last time. It’s kind of maddening.


----------



## Nickie Fønshauge

Jett Hitt said:


> On the iPad, the lasso works fine if you can select the notes, but about half the time, you lasso the notes and nothing is selected. Sometimes it only selects part of the notes, so you do it again, and then it selects one note fewer than it did before. Try again, one note fewer than the last time. It’s kind of maddening.


I find that, if no notes are selected, it's usually because I forgot to click out of note entry mode. You know, when something is highlighted in green. But, the bit about too few or to many notes selected I can totally recognise and sympathise with. It's a bloody nuisance.

Edit: I take that back. You can lasso select even when a measure is highlighted in green, but I am pretty sure it wasn't possible before the latest update.


----------



## gussunkri

Jett Hitt said:


> On the iPad, the lasso works fine if you can select the notes, but about half the time, you lasso the notes and nothing is selected. Sometimes it only selects part of the notes, so you do it again, and then it selects one note fewer than it did before. Try again, one note fewer than the last time. It’s kind of maddening.


Someone somewhere (maybe here) taught me that one needs to lasso the entire notes, including the beam. After that my success rate increased 400%. Now I basically succeed 100%.


----------



## Jett Hitt

gussunkri said:


> Someone somewhere (maybe here) taught me that one needs to lasso the entire notes, including the beam. After that my success rate increased 400%. Now I basically succeed 100%.


I wish that it were that simple, but I have the same problem with other elements, most notably dynamic markings. Circle it all you like, but it won't select it.


----------

