# Is trailer music to blame for non-memorable themes?



## mac (Sep 10, 2017)

I found this, which is in response to the Marvel Symphonic Universe video. She makes some really interesting points regarding marketing. Also, it's good to see the Silvestri Avengers theme receive some love


----------



## Saxer (Sep 10, 2017)

Trailer music is just a follow up of EDM. The loop based and vertical arranged music comes straight from the dance floor. And modern dance floor comes from computer use in music.


----------



## mac (Sep 10, 2017)

Saxer said:


> Trailer music is just a follow up of EDM. The loop based and vertical arranged music comes straight from the dance floor.



I don't think that's the point that's being made here though, it's the fact the marketing teams are using arbitrary trailer music instead of the actual film scores.


----------



## Breaker (Sep 10, 2017)

I don't get the point of the video. Why should movies have memorable themes by default?

I mean probably everybody on this forum would love to compose an iconic theme that would be associated with a film franchise 50 years from now, but would that somehow enhance the experience of average viewer? Or pour in more money to the coffins of the studio?

There are lot of great movies out there without any memorable themes, but I can't remember any average films turning great because of a theme (or music in general).

I Don't see much of "humming potential" in the Avengers theme either, as it's quite generic. Works still well in the context of movie, which should the theme's raison d'être.


----------



## will_m (Sep 10, 2017)

Personally I wouldn't really want to hear the films score repeated ad nauseam for months before I see the film. 

In the same way that it gets tiresome to see the same dramatic moments from the trailer repeated, they lose impact.

For me film music is not by default concert music it shouldn't need to be hummed by people in the street it should work solely to enhance a films narrative.

There are also of course trailer versions of scores that are quite popular at present, like the ones done for star wars.

Some of my favorite trailer pieces lately have been ones inspired by the soundtrack, such as Dunkirk.


----------



## Lionel Schmitt (Sep 10, 2017)

No.


----------



## MChangoM (Sep 10, 2017)

Saxer said:


> Trailer music is just a follow up of EDM. The loop based and vertical arranged music comes straight from the dance floor. And modern dance floor comes from computer use in music.



I've always felt that trailer music had its roots in the short, memorable, emotionally evocative pieces that evolved with the popularity of TV - often based on great movie themes. Although the product has turned out to be despicable, cigarette ads were the highest form of this art. This one has always inspired me:


----------



## rJames (Sep 10, 2017)

I wanna make a stupid statement like...there is no such thing as "trailer music."


----------



## Desire Inspires (Sep 10, 2017)

Honestly, I don't see why such intimacy and detail is given to the music in these movies. The movies themselves are pretty wretched, so who cares about the music. 

If you think there is a lot of bad music out there, take a look on cable, Netflix, Sling, etc at the video content. My gosh, these films and tv shows should be forced to use royalty free music instead of even thinking about getting some poor composer to play a single note.

All of this content is being made just to bulk up what is available for consumers. The vast majority of it gets unnoticed and forgotten as soon as it is released. If you can manage to get a few bucks from working on some of this crap, you have hit the lottery.


----------



## Knomes (Sep 10, 2017)

Breaker said:


> There are lot of great movies out there without any memorable themes, but I can't remember any average films turning great because of a theme (or music in general).


In my opinion there are average (not bad!) movies turned "great" (and I mean famous) because of music. I would take Star Wars as an example.


----------



## Zhao Shen (Sep 10, 2017)

Desire Inspires said:


> Honestly, I don't see why such intimacy and detail is given to the music in these movies. The movies themselves are pretty wretched, so who cares about the music.
> 
> If you think there is a lot of bad music out there, take a look on cable, Netflix, Sling, etc at the video content. My gosh, these films and tv shows should be forced to use royalty free music instead of even thinking about getting some poor composer to play a single note.
> 
> All of this content is being made just to bulk up what is available for consumers. The vast majority of it gets unnoticed and forgotten as soon as it is released. If you can manage to get a few bucks from working on some of this crap, you have hit the lottery.



Nobody's going to listen to those pieces for personal enjoyment, but it sure as hell isn't as easy as pressing a key and calling it good. Composing for film is not all about the strength of the composition itself.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr (Sep 10, 2017)

Such topic was already discussed some while ago..? I remember that video in another thread.
However my take is that movies don´t need always compeling underscores to be good movies and music can support the drama without beeing catchy. As it comes to themes: Compelling / memorable themes help to build a connection to a character or scene, so just for my personal taste I prefer of course themes which have a high level of recognition.
If Marvel Movies and other Blockbuster movie do have that? Hmm..Some themes are definitely catchy also in this genre. For my personal taste the majority of soundtrack there sound to "similiar" though. They don´t let detect any handwriting anymore. So that you are able to say: Oh, clear this is composer "xy" because of such "yz" habbits. Back then this was pretty clear.

Just listen to some movie themes from Alan Silvestri. All of his romantic mainthemes (Forrest Gump, Contact, Father of the Bride etc.) are somehow different but similiar because they show the same stylistic devices which only Alan Silvestri loved and did in this manner.

Nowadays I have hard times to find anything like that in trailermusic / moviescores.

And some of the reasons are:

Everything is totally simplified by its harmony AND in addition simplified by its instrumentation and color. Its hard then of course to make any differences. But is it bad? Not at all, there are from time to time moments where I think you can do modern simplified harmony plus instrumenation and still sound cool.

The actual Movie Trailer music on the other hand is for me nothing more than "noise". Imo it should be even not be labeled as music therefore. Is it compelling or catchy? No..it lacks of basic fundamentals why I would put something into the category of music. So the question could be already: Have we left any music in trailers in general?...


----------



## SDCP (Sep 10, 2017)

I blame Canada.


----------



## givemenoughrope (Sep 10, 2017)

I blame Canada as well. And braaahm. And all subsequent braaahm stokers.

Trailers should have the music from the film in them. And they shouldn't be so gd loud. (I think it would interesting if the director of the film actually got to produce the trailer.) They mostly make me not want to see the movie (the actors and the words coming out of their mouths decide that for me), especially when using that kind of epic, extreme, ultra wobble, edm hair metal rock me amadeus L2 muz-ack. The upside of them being almost uniformly terrible is that I get to park, find my seat, take a leak, validate, buy water (and, ok, popcorn...and dig out that change...) and take my time and not be the least bit worried about memorable themes (there's usually one from the 60s-90s playing in the lobby anyway). Every once in a while there is one that really makes me anticipate the film and the musical direction does help to some degree...mostly what it doesn't do though. 

Are there a lot of trailer composers here? What keeps it interesting for you? Is there enough work that isn't of the deafening variety? Like a low-key drama or Western or something? (Do those movies still get made?)


----------



## Kubler (Sep 10, 2017)

givemenoughrope said:


> Trailers should have the music from the film in them.



Actually the best trailer musics I've heard lately are the new Star Wars ones, I mean these precise two ones :





That's a huge shame they've not been released on their own, like the track of TFA third trailer (with the piano at the beginning) that's gone so viral for whatever reason…

Wonderful hommage to Williams' themes, modern orchestration yet respectful of the classic SW scores… I still remember the chills down my spine at the climax of TFA trailer 2, just before Han's final clip.

I'd love to know what composer/company made those pieces.


----------



## mac (Sep 10, 2017)

Kubler said:


> Wonderful hommage to Williams' themes, modern orchestration yet respectful of the classic SW scores… I still remember the chills down my spine at the climax of TFA trailer 2, just before Han's final clip.



Agreed, and this is exactly what she is talking about in the video, using the theme in the marketing = how it needs to be done to become memorable for the general public. 

It's pretty clear the topics been side tracked into another trailer/epic/whatever bash, which has nothing to do with the video. I thought she made a good point anyway.


----------



## Desire Inspires (Sep 10, 2017)

mac said:


> It's pretty clear the topics been side tracked into another trailer/epic/whatever bash, which has nothing to do with the video. I thought she made a good point anyway.



That is what makes the conversation lively.


----------



## Breaker (Sep 10, 2017)

Knomes said:


> In my opinion there are average (not bad!) movies turned "great" (and I mean famous) because of music. I would take Star Wars as an example.



Well I meant great quality-wise (personal opinion of course), not just famous.

As for your example, Star Wars was one the biggest pop culture phenomenons of late 70's - early 80's. Do you honestly think that the music made a huge difference in that? I would say Star Wars has made JW and his music more famous than the other way around.


----------



## AdamAlake (Sep 10, 2017)

Breaker said:


> Well I meant great quality-wise (personal opinion of course), not just famous.
> 
> As for your example, Star Wars was one the biggest pop culture phenomenons of late 70's - early 80's. Do you honestly think that the music made a huge difference in that? I would say Star Wars has made JW and his music more famous than the other way around.



More people can hum the theme than there are people that have actually watched the movies. So yeah, it did.


----------



## lastmessiah (Sep 10, 2017)

I really don't get the people who want a "memorable theme" in every movie. Film scores should serve the thematic and emotional content of the picture: a cold and distant Kubrick-esque film is better supplemented with disorienting textures than some kitchen sink jingle. I've noticed that Zimmer detractors often cite his use of ambience over melody but in most cases that's just what works best.

I do agree that "epic" trailer music is egregiously corny and bad.


----------



## mac (Sep 10, 2017)

Desire Inspires said:


> That is what makes the conversation lively.



Lively, but irrelevant. I should probably have worded the title better.


----------



## Desire Inspires (Sep 10, 2017)

mac said:


> Lively, but irrelevant. I should probably have worded the title better.



So to get back on topic, no. I wouldn't solely blame trailer music. It's just that the direction of film has changed. The films themselves are forgettable. The music isn't going to help out too much.


----------



## NoamL (Sep 10, 2017)

I think there's another reason why the Avengers theme is not as easy to remember as some other music... The first step in the theme is not a change in the tune but a change in the harmony (i - bVI) while holding the same note. That's hard to hum!


----------



## NoamL (Sep 10, 2017)

> I would say Star Wars has made JW and his music more famous than the other way around.



JW went on to do Indiana Jones, E.T., Harry Potter, Schindler's List, Home Alone, JFK, Jurassic Park, four different Olympic Games, and Superman.

George Lucas went on to do Howard The Duck, Red Tails, and Attack Of The Clones.

George Lucas was lucky to have John (and Ralph McQuarrie and Harrison Ford and Ben Burtt, the other major talents who made SW a hit) not the other way around

Also before John Williams ever met George Lucas he was already an Academy Award winner (Fiddler On The Roof) with a 20 year career in film and TV and multiple hit films (The Poseidon Adventure, The Towering Inferno) including the top grossing film ever before Star Wars (Jaws).


----------



## AdamAlake (Sep 10, 2017)

lastmessiah said:


> I really don't get the people who want a "memorable theme" in every movie. Film scores should serve the thematic and emotional content of the picture: a cold and distant Kubrick-esque film is better supplemented with disorienting textures than some kitchen sink jingle. I've noticed that Zimmer detractors often cite his use of ambience over melody but in most cases that's just what works best.
> 
> I do agree that "epic" trailer music is egregiously corny and bad.



Nobody is saying every movie should have one, but I welcome you to name one movie from the past decade that did.


----------



## NoamL (Sep 10, 2017)

Sherlock Holmes!


----------



## lastmessiah (Sep 10, 2017)

AdamAlake said:


> Nobody is saying every movie should have one, but I welcome you to name one movie from the past decade that did.



Giacchino's Star Trek score, for one.


----------



## will_m (Sep 10, 2017)

Kubler said:


> Wonderful hommage to Williams' themes, modern orchestration yet respectful of the classic SW scores… I still remember the chills down my spine at the climax of TFA trailer 2, just before Han's final clip.
> 
> I'd love to know what composer/company made those pieces.



I believe they are from trailer composer Ursine Vulpine on the Pusher label.


----------



## Jeffrey Peterson (Sep 10, 2017)

AdamAlake said:


> Nobody is saying every movie should have one, but I welcome you to name one movie from the past decade that did.



Dunkirk had an incredible theme.


----------



## Jeffrey Peterson (Sep 10, 2017)

Jeffrey Peterson said:


> Dunkirk had an incredible theme.



Even though Dunkirk didn't have a theme like your talking about, I loved the score...it was fresh and new. Interstellar had a theme and that theme rocked socks... as good as the theme from "The Rock".

You can't say 1:18 doesn't get you right in the feels...


----------



## Breaker (Sep 10, 2017)

AdamAlake said:


> More people can hum the theme than there are people that have actually watched the movies. So yeah, it did.



A lot of people who haven't watched the movie can also name the main characters (and recognise them) as well as tell what the movie is generally about.
Is this because of the music? Because George Lucas' character and dialogue writing is so spectacular? Or combination of myriad things including luck?


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr (Sep 10, 2017)

Ok, lets go and talk some real examples here. And lets take this one:


While I think that this belongs still to the category of music I ask myself what producers / filmcompanies were thinking to put this sorry _musical garbage_ for an official trailer track? This is mutilating everything what star wars music is all about. It may be a matter of standpoint, but imo you shouldn´t put such a legacy of starwars music in the stinky hands of an amateur who has no idea how to write in that idiom. So why they are doing that? There are people out there who could do a so much better job with that imo. Why everything has to sound like that epic with dull orchestrations and that horrible godzilla drums around? Sure that this is just my opinion and everybody is entitled to have their own opinion which is fine, but let me recapitulate my last comment: This is also the reason why we don´t have any diversity anymore in music regardless trailer or film because everything is trying to be totally unified. 
But to clarify: The composer of this trailer is not to blame at all, he just does his job. When there is someone to blame then this stupid producers and companies out there.


----------



## Breaker (Sep 10, 2017)

NoamL said:


> JW went on to do Indiana Jones, E.T., Harry Potter, Schindler's List, Home Alone, JFK, Jurassic Park, four different Olympic Games, and Superman.



Having Star Wars in his CV probably didn't hurt at getting those gigs. 



NoamL said:


> George Lucas went on to do Howard The Duck, Red Tails, and Attack Of The Clones.
> 
> George Lucas was lucky to have John (and Ralph McQuarrie and Harrison Ford and Ben Burtt, the other major talents who made SW a hit) not the other way around



At least 40 years ago he did still have some vision and he was smart (or lucky) enough to surround himself with talented people (Carrie Fisher re-writing the dialogue on-site etc.)



NoamL said:


> Also before John Williams ever met George Lucas he was already an Academy Award winner (Fiddler On The Roof) with a 20 year career in film and TV and multiple hit films (The Poseidon Adventure, The Towering Inferno) including the top grossing film ever before Star Wars (Jaws).



Yes, JW was already a established name before Star Wars and would have probably gone on to be one of the most profilic film composers ever.

BUT, Star Wars also gave him the chance to bring back the golden era style romantic orchestrations and break out from the jazzy tone row idiom. Film music today might be quite different without Star Wars. Maybe 80's would have seen more Vangelis-style synth driven scores as traditionally film music has mimicked pop music trends.


----------



## Breaker (Sep 11, 2017)

AdamAlake said:


> Nobody is saying every movie should have one, but I welcome you to name one movie from the past decade that did.



Has there been a movie franchise during the last decade that could be mentioned in the same sentence with Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Ghost Busters, Back to the Future etc.? I mean having the same cultural influence?
I guess Lord of the Rings was the last one (and that didn't really have a memorable theme for casual viewer, but a collection of great themes that really enhance the movie).


----------



## will_m (Sep 11, 2017)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Ok, lets go and talk some real examples here. And lets take this one:
> 
> 
> This is mutilating everything what star wars music is all about. It may be a matter of standpoint, but imo you shouldn´t put such a legacy of starwars music in the stinky hands of an amateur who has no idea how to write in that idiom. So why they are doing that?




I guess because he has a record of creating trailer tracks that people have enjoyed and have helped gain attention for the films they are promoting.

Calling someone a stinky handed amateur just seems petty to me, if you detest trailer music so much why engage with it? If you have a better alternative that the studios want to use then go out and create it. 



AlexanderSchiborr said:


> This is also the reason why we don´t have any diversity anymore in music regardless trailer or film because everything is trying to be totally unified.



Not sure what you're watching to believe this but my top films of the last few years have incredibly diverse soundtracks. Even within trailers there is a an amount of diversity, sure, there is a popular style at any given time but what trailer houses ask for the most is for something unique and identifiable.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr (Sep 11, 2017)

will_m said:


> I guess because he has a record of creating trailer tracks that people have enjoyed and have helped gain attention for the films they are promoting.
> 
> Calling someone a stinky handed amateur just seems petty to me, if you detest trailer music so much why engage with it? If you have a better alternative that the studios want to use then go out and create it.
> 
> ...



No, not in general, I have no personal grief with trailer music. I was interested how other people feel and think. And you have a different opinion on this matter which is totally fine for me. I guess my opinion comes from where I come from and what I do and like. And sure agreed it is not the nicest thing what I said about a composer but should someone do music for such a legacy when he didn´t have any fundamentals in this field there? Nothing to blame the composer, but I don´t think that this is a good idea.

I am curious: What top movies do you have? And how they sound like? I would like to add: I don´t say that filmmusic in general is bad nowadays, but I say that filmmusic in this blockbuster / Marvel franchise is definitely very mediocre and very less diverse in its handwriting, or I can´t detect any handwriting in such music anymore because what I said: It is very simplified by its harmony and very unified by its instrumentation. And that comes both together.


----------



## Alex Fraser (Sep 11, 2017)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Ok, lets go and talk some real examples here. And lets take this one:
> 
> 
> While I think that this belongs still to the category of music I ask myself what producers / filmcompanies were thinking to put this sorry _musical garbage_ for an official trailer track? This is mutilating everything what star wars music is all about. It may be a matter of standpoint, but imo you shouldn´t put such a legacy of starwars music in the stinky hands of an amateur who has no idea how to write in that idiom. So why they are doing that? There are people out there who could do a so much better job with that imo. Why everything has to sound like that epic with dull orchestrations and that horrible godzilla drums around? Sure that this is just my opinion and everybody is entitled to have their own opinion which is fine, but let me recapitulate my last comment: This is also the reason why we don´t have any diversity anymore in music regardless trailer or film because everything is trying to be totally unified.
> But to clarify: The composer of this trailer is not to blame at all, he just does his job. When there is someone to blame then this stupid producers and companies out there.




Controversial! 
That example was one of the better pieces I think. Some of the ones for Rogue One (specifically the short international TV spots) sounded like they were pulled off the shelf. It made me angry when I heard them! I believe the very first teaser trailer for "The Force Awakens" was John Williams stuff. The rest has been trailer house.

But I understand where you're coming from. I moan about this all the time and I fear the era of John Williams theme style soundtracks will end when the great man hangs up his baton. Perhaps I'm being overly nostalgic. I'm in my late 30's and grew up with this stuff. Maybe the next generation will moan when "themes" are back in fashion.

Also - this stuff will sound incredibly dated someday...


----------



## will_m (Sep 11, 2017)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> . And sure agreed it is not the nicest thing what I said about a composer but should someone do music for such a legacy when he didn´t have any fundamentals in this field there? Nothing to blame the composer, but I don´t think that this is a good idea.



I disagree, the field in this context is trailer music so they hired someone with experience and a good track record in that field. I assume the brief was a trailerized version of the classic movie themes and that is what was delivered, the trailer in question seems to have been received very well by the fans.



AlexanderSchiborr said:


> I am curious: What top movies do you have? And how they sound like? I would like to add: I don´t say that filmmusic in general is bad nowadays, but I say that filmmusic in this blockbuster / Marvel franchise is definitely very mediocre and very less diverse in its handwriting, or I can´t detect any handwriting in such music anymore because what I said: It is very simplified by its harmony and very unified by its instrumentation. And that comes both together.



With respect that is not the wording of your previous post, you make no mention of the unifying of music being specific to blockbusters/MCU. I would agree that sometimes blockbusters play it safe musically but they also play it safe in every aspect of film making. When something costs hundreds of millions of dollars to make there is generally less risk taken.

You asked about some of favourite recent films and their soundtracks so here goes; Victoria, Arrival, Swiss Army Man, Sicario, Midnight Special, Under the Skin, Ex Machina, Filth, Her.


----------



## Michael Antrum (Sep 11, 2017)

I think one thing that is also a factor here is how we have become used to things that used to be considered a big treat. When I was a kid, a trip to the cinema was a big thing - an event. These days were are all a lot more spoilt. You would be lucky to go to the cinema more that a couple of times a year when I were young. (And we lived in a shoe box in middle of t'road)

The special effects you would see in a Hollywood movies were an a completely different league to what you would get on television. Back then the cardboard sets in Blake's 7 and Doctor Who were in full wobble.

These days, some of the lowest budget TV shows have effects that would have floored people in a cinema in the 70's. Look at the original Superman - You'll believe a man can fly - and now look at some of these effects.

We have become so used to disposable entertainment in high volumes - and it's no surprise to learn the Quality and Quantity seldom make good bedfellows.


----------



## handz (Sep 11, 2017)

For sure, this and non thematic music of Hans Zimmer and his followers.


----------



## jononotbono (Sep 11, 2017)

will_m said:


> Under the Skin



One of the best modern films I've seen too. Mica Levi wrote an amazing Score! Dunkirk was fantastic too. Actually had sweat down my back from feeling so tense throughout the experience.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr (Sep 11, 2017)

will_m said:


> I disagree, the field in this context is trailer music so they hired someone with experience and a good track record in that field. I assume the brief was a trailerized version of the classic movie themes and that is what was delivered, the trailer in question seems to have been received very well by the fans.



Well I have as it seems a different take on that. Lets´take the star wars example a bit more again: The music of star wars has a very specific sound and flair which is imo "unique" because it is very rich in harmony, which means that it goes from very tonal / sonoric music to almost atonalism, and it is very diverse in instrumentation, dense in harmony and well known for the usage of the whole available color in the orchestra. It has a tradition over almost 40 years right now. John Williams no one than any other man has defined the sound of star wars. From my standpoint someone should carefully treat such legacy with the uttermost respect as possible. Which I don´t see here. It is the other way around: It is shitting on the tradition totally. My concern is: Why putting into star wars such "non" star wars music? So probably there is the point where you say: Ah lets go with the times, thats fine. We don´t have 1985 anymore. And I am the way around saying that this is violating the tradition of star wars´music. You mentioned that the fans received the trailer music well. Where can I read about such things?

Do you believe that the majority of people liking something is a meter for that something is good or tasteful? This may be very far awa to mention it. But billions and trillions on this planet loved the gangnam (right spelling..?) style music / video. But was that really such of a great thing? It was a viral thing, a trend. Nobody cares anymore now..that shows the long livety of it which is practically zero. And probably the other half of Billions of people on the planet scratched their head because they didn´t thought this was a cool music or video.

PS: Thank you for the list of movies. I will do and check some stuff out.


----------



## Alex Fraser (Sep 11, 2017)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Well I have as it seems a different take on that. Lets´take the star wars example a bit more again: The music of star wars has a very specific sound and flair which is imo "unique" because it is very rich in harmony, which means that it goes from very tonal / sonoric music to almost atonalism, and it is very diverse in instrumentation, dense in harmony and well known for the usage of the whole available color in the orchestra. It has a tradition over almost 40 years right now. John Williams no one than any other man has defined the sound of star wars. From my standpoint someone should carefully treat such legacy with the uttermost respect as possible. Which I don´t see here. It is the other way around: It is shitting on the tradition totally. My concern is: Why putting into star wars such "non" star wars music? So probably there is the point where you say: Ah lets go with the times, thats fine. We don´t have 1985 anymore. And I am the way around saying that this is violating the tradition of star wars´music. You mentioned that the fans received the trailer music well. Where can I read about such things?



As a SW fan, I remember the most die-hard jediheads around the 'web loving the trailer music. I don't remember reading anyone not liking it. Like you, I would have preferred a more traditional approach but the cold truth is that the trailer music did it's job and the film went on to make serious bank.

As long as the actual films continue to respect the traditional style score, JW or otherwise, I'll be happy.

As far as taste vs popularity goes..that's another whole debate without a real answer. I'd suggest that everyone on this forum listens to the music on a far more critical level than non-composer folk. The details we hear? Not so important to everyone else.


----------



## will_m (Sep 11, 2017)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> John Williams no one than any other man has defined the sound of star wars. From my standpoint someone should carefully treat such legacy with the uttermost respect as possible. Which I don´t see here. It is the other way around: It is shitting on the tradition totally. Another point: Why putting into star wars such "non" star wars music? So probably there is the point where you say: Ah lets go with the times, thats fine. We don´t have 1985 anymore. And I am the way around saying that this is violating the tradition of star wars´music. You mentioned that the fans received the trailer music well. Where can I read about such things?



Well yes John Williams has obviously defined the music of star wars, he is the only composer for it. Although I'd argue that Gustav Holst and his likely use as the temp track had a great deal of influence too.

If you'd like to see people enjoying the trailer just check out the YT comments section. I don't see people saying it is "shitting on" John Williams.



AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Do you believe that the majority of people liking something is a meter for that something is good or tasteful? This may be very far awa to mention it. But billions and trillions on this planet loved the gangnam (right spelling..?) style music / video. But was that really such of a great thing? It was a viral thing, a trend. Nobody cares anymore now..that shows the long livety of it which is practically zero. And probably the other half of Billions of people on the planet scratched their head because they didn´t thought this was a cool music or video.
> 
> PS: Thank you for the list of movies. I will do and check some stuff out.



No I don't believe that popularity always indicates value but if something I don't necessarily enjoy brings enjoyment to others then I don't see any harm in that.

By the way how do you think should we judge what music is of value? Surely the value of it is different for each person. Personally John William does little for me, I don't have an emotional connection to it. I certainly don't begrudge its existence though, I have friends to whom it brings great joy.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr (Sep 11, 2017)

will_m said:


> Well yes John Williams has obviously defined the music of star wars, he is the only composer for it. Although I'd argue that Gustav Holst and his likely use as the temp track had a great deal of influence too.
> 
> If you'd like to see people enjoying the trailer just check out the YT comments section. I don't see people saying it is "shitting on" John Williams.
> 
> ...



Exactly he is the only composer (when we take only the motion picture movies (not the whole franchise) minus Rogue One (Giacchino)). Yes, indeed he is using (also) Gustav Holst Planets Suite as a temp track which is ...? Why you mention that? Probably because you make the analogy between Williams and other composers who also uses "influences"? While I understand your observation that also Williams aside many others has used temp tracks it is a question in the end: What does he make out of it? When you go and study for many years works of Williams you will understand more the complexity and fine nuance between featuring something and taking it but creating something new and not just "repeating" it.
Yes, shitting at Williams was more of my terminology.. maybe I will go and read some of the comments to see what people will say about the music in the trailer.

It is not an easy quetion to answer, where value starts or ends because it is very often mixed with personal preferences and taste. I personally still believe that we are in a time where we throw too many good things overboard which grew over centuries and I am still not sure why that is. There is a reason why traditional things lasted so long. You know it is like the colors in the orchestra..the orchestra evolved over several centuries to what it is now. When taking out just for instance the Woodwind section..you just kill a billions of different colors and nuances in the orchestra and therefore the way how to tell a story will be diminished. It is like cooking. Salt and Pepper... that´s great. But we have so many other spices available, so why not using them? And actually that is maybe what annoys me the most that this music nowadays seem so limited in its way "how it sais" something. 

I can scream the words: "I love bananas", I can whisper that in your ear "I love bananas"..(which is now strange :D), and there are many more ways how o say it. But when I would all the time only scream "I love bananas"..everyone would be pretty soon deaf and I have said in short amount of time everything because there is nothing else to say. That is also what I was trying to explain with diversity in film or trailer music that I don´t see that any comprehensive musical repertoire is used anymore.


----------



## will_m (Sep 11, 2017)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Yes, indeed he is using (also) Gustav Holst Planets Suite as a temp track which is ...? Why you mention that? Probably because you make the analogy between Williams and other composers who also uses "influences"?



I mention it because you seem to believe that Williams using Holsts music is somehow unique and worthy, whereas a trailer composer interpreting John Williams is shitting on his musical legacy. I'm sure there are fans of Holst somewhere saying that John Williams did a disservice to the Planets, doesn't make them right by the way. 



AlexanderSchiborr said:


> I can scream the words: "I love bananas", I can whisper that in your ear "I love bananas"..(which is now strange :D), and there are many more ways how o say it. But when I would all the time only scream "I love bananas"..everyone would be pretty soon deaf and I have said in short amount of time everything because there is nothing else to say. That is also what I was trying to explain with diversity in film or trailer music that I don´t see that any comprehensive musical repertoire is used anymore.



That is strangest analogy I've heard in a while, I think what you're getting at is that you don't hear enough diversity in film/trailer music. I've already provided a list of film/scores which I think demonstrate the opposite so I'm not sure what to say. 

Personally I think we have the most diverse range of scores in history, in the 70's/80's film score was dominated by the orchestra and traditional thematic writing, now we still have that in composers like John Williams, Michael Giacchino, Alexadre Desplat, Danny Elfman, Patrick Doyle etc. We also have composers fusing orchestra with more modern techniques like Hans Zimmer, Max Richter and then more experimental composers like Clint Mansell, Micah Levi, Johan Johansson. 

For me all of these composers and more have a recognisable voice, they also have their imitators. There are lots of scores that sound like they want to be Zimmer but I also hear just as many John Williams clones.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr (Sep 11, 2017)

will_m said:


> I mention it because you seem to believe that Williams using Holsts music is somehow unique and worthy, whereas a trailer composer interpreting John Williams is shitting on his musical legacy. I'm sure there are fans of Holst somewhere saying that John Williams did a disservice to the Planets, doesn't make them right by the way.
> .



With due all respect but I neither said nor think that his "usage of using Holsts music is somehow unique" And Holst isn´t the only influence and temp track for star wars btw.. I said that it depends on what you make out of it. Please read the whole paragraph in my previous comment. I said the following:
"When you go and study for many years works of Williams you will understand more the complexity and fine nuance between featuring something and taking it but creating something new and not just "repeating" it."
I meant that there is difference between just "featuring" a gesture or device from a composer OR developing an idea out of it to your own liking and style in order to create something new. If that wasn´t clear I hope it is now clearer what I meant.
I don´t know if that is unique, but it shows clearly his sophistication to take 3rd party material and bring it to a new level.

Well, I don´t understand why that is a strange analogy here, but fine then. Yes, you are right. In the 80s we had a lot thematic writing plus incoorporating a longform development of the themes. But do we have motivic development nowadays? No, not all. The themes are still thematic and cool but they don´t develop anymore. Story and character in movies can go from enjoyment over to loss and total devastation, but the musicthemes stay more or less the same and doesn´t reflect anymore such stages of character development. There are tons of examples, but just to mention one: Compare the development of a theme from Batman begins (main theme) with Lukes Theme from the first star wars movie. Not sure if you meant that, but in case this is my take on that subject.

I slightly dissagree about the copyists: While there are also Williams copycats out there (mostly bad ones) I almost hear people mostly trying to imitate Zimmer. My opinion is coming from what I see on this forum and soundcloud. Just go through 1000 profiles and look how many descent williams copyists you will find or Zimmer ones. There are also reason why that is, but this would be a way too off-topic.


----------



## gamma-ut (Sep 11, 2017)

Here's the original 1977 trailer for Star Wars. Guess what, it doesn't use the iconic themes either but what sounds like a bit of library music. Possibly because it was made before the soundtrack recording was complete. 



And Lord of the Rings (Fellowship), December 2000:



I'm no expert on the score from that but the trailer sounds like bog-standard big drums and choirs epic to me. 

Somehow, I have the feeling the trailer has precisely zero bearing on how people receive the music in the film.


----------



## Kubler (Sep 11, 2017)

My God, the LotR one looks so outdated x)


----------



## gamma-ut (Sep 11, 2017)

Kubler said:


> My God, the LotR one looks so outdated x)



It is nearly 20 years old.


----------



## Kubler (Sep 11, 2017)

I know that. But still.


----------



## Mike Fox (Sep 11, 2017)

Themes should never be considered an expectation or standard in film music. Out of the thousands of movies in existence, there's only been a few composers who came up with something that the general population could regurgitate. Truth is, most composers can't write memorable themes, and If they can, they certainly aren't. In a lot of ways, a theme is the equivalent of a catchy hook in a pop song, which is why it get's stuck in your head and makes it memorable. Composing something like that is actually incredibly difficult to do. I'd argue that's the reason, or at least one of them. 

Even though Elfman is my favorite composer of all time, John Williams is the one that drilled a hole in my brain, poured in his music, and sealed it shut.


----------



## dannymc (Sep 11, 2017)

mikefox789 said:


> Themes should never be considered an expectation or standard in film music. Out of the thousands of movies in existence, there's only been a few composers who came up with something that the general population could regurgitate. Truth is, most composers can't write memorable themes, and If they can, they certainly aren't. In a lot of ways, a theme is the equivalent of a catchy hook in a pop song, which is why it get's stuck in your head and makes it memorable. Composing something like that is actually incredibly difficult to do. I'd argue that's the reason, or at least one of them.
> 
> Even though Elfman is my favorite composer of all time, John Williams is the one that drilled a hole in my brain, poured in his music, and sealed it shut.



but Danny Elfman could also write great catchy themes imo. but yeah i agree with you, outside of the top A lister composers of today alot of the films you watch just have generic score on them which are probably not that dissimilar to the temp track. 

Danny


----------



## FinGael (Sep 11, 2017)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Well I have as it seems a different take on that. Lets´take the star wars example a bit more again: The music of star wars has a very specific sound and flair which is imo "unique" because it is very rich in harmony, which means that it goes from very tonal / sonoric music to almost atonalism, and it is very diverse in instrumentation, dense in harmony and well known for the usage of the whole available color in the orchestra. It has a tradition over almost 40 years right now. John Williams no one than any other man has defined the sound of star wars. From my standpoint someone should carefully treat such legacy with the uttermost respect as possible. Which I don´t see here. It is the other way around: It is shitting on the tradition totally. My concern is: Why putting into star wars such "non" star wars music? So probably there is the point where you say: Ah lets go with the times, thats fine. We don´t have 1985 anymore. And I am the way around saying that this is violating the tradition of star wars´music. You mentioned that the fans received the trailer music well. Where can I read about such things?
> .



Sorry in advance for the long rant.

I feel the same way about the Star Wars trailer -example.

To me it is like a rough photocopy of a Botticelli painting, made with a xerox from the 80's.

Yes, there are many who like the end result, but personally it is a path of development that does not feel right for me to support. So far I have stayed out of trailer music discussions and arguments, but I feel that there is room also for my point of view, which is not born from impulsion, but taken form of thinking about the subject for a long time and I have given it a lot of space to breathe.

It has been said many times that modern blockbusters have so big budgets nowadays, that artistic risks seem to be often minimized. Creative solutions being used are the same ones that have worked many times before. Blockbusters have become money-making machines. The industry has become a monster, feeding from creative individuals and outputting money. Many of the creative ones working in the field have said to me, that they do not like that much what they have to do for their living. How does it differ from the system in the movie Matrix, which got its energy from humans?

I like to think of culture (in general) as a way of communication for the whole humankind - as one entity; a form of expressing to other lifeforms and universe how it feels and sees things, where it comes from, where it is heading et cetera.

I have to say, that when I observe modern Hollywood productions from that perspective, I don't like too much what I'm seeing. The same goes to modern pop music as another big form of creative expression on a global scale.

What I see or hear in them, at this point of time, speaks to me of a way of living that is highly unnatural, disconnected from our roots and the totality of life on this planet. If our collective effort in the global scale of mainstream feature films is usually highly unoriginal, shallow, noisy, artificial, downplaying beauty as a value, what does it say about human race and more importantly; how does it affect us and the way our culture and civilization is evolving? What effect do these underlined and shallow dramaturgic solutions, copied unoriginal stories or remakes, violent, egoistic and destructive behavioural models towards others and our surroundings, dissonant noisy and boomy soundtracks, fast ADHD-like cuts etc have on us and our perception? (Of course there are exceptions and I am generalizing here.) I acknowledge that blockbusters are for many a way to release some steam, but I still think that the path movie industry has taken is not the best one available and the ones thinking the same should make something about it.

I respect creative freedom, but I also strongly believe in the responsibility of the creator. One can feel sick of himself (/herself), or the world, and throw up all that ill feeling on a canvas, but does it feel like it is contributing to the life of humans and this planet in a way that creates more harmony and a better life for everyone? If it does, then go ahead. It is your choice.

I have a profound love for nature. I used to live in noisy urban environments and be part of a lifestyle that I can describe as shallow. What I found in nature was a deeper connection to life and myself. One of the most important lessons I have learned is the importance of beauty and that true power and greatness has often clothed itself in little things and in silence.

I used to be ok with the "epic" music of trailers. Nowadays I have grown so tired of them, that I won't go see or buy a movie (have thousands of dvds and blu-rays) that has a trailer, that creates the feeling in me that it is not respecting the movie. Most of the times the reason is the music in the trailer. Yup, there are a lot of movies I skip nowadays. I do not want to narrow it to my personal taste when watching a trailer, but it does have to feel like it is respecting the movie and the subject. I have a deep respect for creative arts and creative individuals, so I feel that it is sad that it has come to this. I know that it is not about my personal preferences, because I hear the same all the time.

An average modern soulless trailer of a Hollywood production is like someone yelling at your face. Go ahead, but it very seldom does make you epic or powerful. I love creativity and creative arts and feel sad, because everyone of those cloned trailers is a great missed opportunity. At least in my eyes.

One of my wise and dear friends said to me once, that if one does not communicate truthfully from the core of his/her being, the end product is noise. Often feels like we, as humanity, are drowning in all the noise we create, without stopping to think if it is all necessary or even right. Today we have more content than ever before. What is the message? Physically we have a world where there is harder to find silence than before. In my personal experience I think that from time to time many of us need a peaceful and silent environment to reflect on things in oneself and what is happening in our lives and in the world.

I feel that these things are highly important, because it has been said that culture is a key factor in forming and creating a civilization. The future society is the product of the culture today. Our bodies are delicate receivers and what our senses pick up affect our thinking, emotions, bodily functions and shape our experience of reality in general.

I do also have many reasons to think that modern Hollywood movies are poiitical tools and ways of social engineering. Is it intentional and to what extent? I do not know and won't go more into that topic, because we are not in the political sub-forum.

I would like to see more bold individuals expressing their valuable opinions and point of views and making decisions that are being based on what feels right in the heart. Especially in the creative fields. We don't have to be against anybody, but as members of humankind we are encouraged to make conscious choices. Most of the important things and changes have started from one individual doing things differently. We only have this one life (and it goes fast).


----------



## Vlzmusic (Sep 11, 2017)

I think the cut aesthetic has changed, many movies became more jumpy, noisier, action oriented, flashy and also more structurised, leaving less and less scenes for memorable melodies, or for any music listening actually. Bond movies have dedicated slot for the theme song at the beginning, the SW or PoTC want to please fans with some old themes reprising, but many other movies are less likely to venture into complex music, unless its an artistic project like "Hotel Budapest", "Anna Karenina" etc.


----------



## gamma-ut (Sep 11, 2017)

FinGael said:


> I would like to see more bold individuals expressing their valuable opinions and point of views and making decisions that are being based on what feels right in the heart. Especially in the creative fields. We don't have to be against anybody, but as members of humankind we are encouraged to make conscious choices. Most of the important things and changes have started from one individual doing things differently. We only have this one life (and it goes fast).



Have you considered looking to blockbusters for high art is an act of folly? These things are so subject to the whims of committee decisions that it's a miracle anything survives. If the director or one of the suits with the money doesn't like it, it's not going in. Music is just one of the casualties, the script often suffers a lot more. 

I would expect the independent sector to be the place to look for a bit more imagination in film music.


----------



## will_m (Sep 11, 2017)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> With due all respect but I neither said nor think that his "usage of using Holsts music is somehow unique" And Holst isn´t the only influence and temp track for star wars btw.. I said that it depends on what you make out of it. Please read the whole paragraph in my previous comment. I said the following:
> "When you go and study for many years works of Williams you will understand more the complexity and fine nuance between featuring something and taking it but creating something new and not just "repeating" it."
> I meant that there is difference between just "featuring" a gesture or device from a composer OR developing an idea out of it to your own liking and style in order to create something new. If that wasn´t clear I hope it is now clearer what I meant.
> I don´t know if that is unique, but it shows clearly his sophistication to take 3rd party material and bring it to a new level.



From your earlier post:



AlexanderSchiborr said:


> The music of star wars has a very specific sound and flair which is imo "unique" because it is very rich in harmony, which means that it goes from very tonal / sonoric music to almost atonalism, and it is very diverse in instrumentation, dense in harmony and well known for the usage of the whole available color in the orchestra.



I'm now confused as to whether you see the work as unique or not, you seem to dislike modern film score and trailer for sounding the same or not unique but then state that that you don't agree that JW's use of Holst is unique.

Again my point was that you're happy to call out trailer composers for a perceived ruining of classic material, (going as far calling one a stinky handed amateur) but don't seem to see that the same could be said of JW.

I don't think we are going to agree on the diversity of modern film score, I've pointed out numerous soundtracks that I think are and you've come back with a comparison between the main character themes for Star Wars and Chris Nolans Batman. You can dislike a score but I'd question anyone who thinks that Zimmers score for Batman doesn't absolutely fit with the vision. Conversely I wouldn't be petitioning for Zimmer to start scoring Star Wars.



AlexanderSchiborr said:


> I slightly dissagree about the copyists: While there are also Williams copycats out there (mostly bad ones) I almost hear people mostly trying to imitate Zimmer. My opinion is coming from what I see on this forum and soundcloud. Just go through 1000 profiles and look how many descent williams copyists you will find or Zimmer ones. There are also reason why that is, but this would be a way too off-topic.



If you've gone through a 1000 profiles and concluded that most are Zimmer rip offs then you clearly have more data than me to go off. My point really wasn't about who has the most imitators, it was that there are imitators in all genres.

To get back on topic slightly, I don't think trailer music is at all responsible for people not remembering scores, the original point in the video seems to be that trailers should use the film score to make people remember it but to be honest people can remember most things if you blast it at them long enough, doesn't make it good.


----------



## FinGael (Sep 11, 2017)

gamma-ut said:


> Have you considered looking to blockbusters for high art is an act of folly? These things are so subject to the whims of committee decisions that it's a miracle anything survives. If the director or one of the suits with the money doesn't like it, it's not going in. Music is just one of the casualties, the script often suffers a lot more.
> 
> I would expect the independent sector to be the place to look for a bit more imagination in film music.



Thanks. Yes, a fair point. Have been involved with the industry, and understand your point on what survives and makes it to the movie and what won't.

Still, I do not see it that much as "blockbusters yes or no high art" -question, but am focusing on observing it as an act on a global scale; the scale itself creates a big responsibility, because the industry has so much power in its ability to influence so many people around the world.

I understand that this aspect may sound far-fetched, because the whole modern western culture is based on idea of constant expansion - in expense of the planet and its limited resources.

Every passing day we will face more of this contradiction and clash between our culture and the planet, and I think it will lead to the implosion of Hollywood and the current movie industry as we know it. Unless it is able to renew itself and the content, and align more with the future that is ahead. It seems that we do not want to be reminded how destructive our way of living is, but many of us like to hear the same message in movies and trailers - in aural form of apocalyptic and thunderous soundscapes and in-your-face soundtracks with low horns and stuff reminding us that our mutual ship is going to crash with the iceberg. Same analogy can be applied to the visual content; the nature of the action is often very destructive and the environments are destroyed without giving it any thought. Bigger the destruction, better the impact, it seems.

I don't doubt that it can be constructive for a human being once in a while to face that, but if almost all of the blockbuster movies are pushing same kind of story or agenda, with the sonic dimensions amplifying the effect, it may have consequences on a human. In my experience it makes us less sensitive, and that can become an obstacle with expanding our awareness. Why is that important? Because science shows that our current awareness is not enough to co-exist with other life on this planet without major problems.

I would even go as far as saying that this might be the very thing one can hear in the sound design and soundtracks in most of the trailers. The collective unconscious of the modern western world speaking or crying out loud. Instead of listening to the message, the solution is to put some more low horns and epic booms to the next one ;P

If you cut down million acres of forest, there will be many interested in why it is being done, do you have a permit for it and what effect will it have. If you operate a film or music industry you may have as much influence on humans, which affects the whole western culture (and the planet), but you are allowed to do what ever you want with instruments that have been scientifically proven to have an effect on human beings in many ways, and in many cases to great extent.

Have to add that i am not fundamentally against powerful soundtracks; have done hybrid tracks myself, and have a strong synth background. And yes, simple can be good too. It would just be nice if there was a proper reason for doing something. To me maximizing profit, mindless and unimaginative copying, loudness/impact wars and musically poor content often are not that, especially when they are happening in an industry in a form that can have an effect on the whole society and world.


----------



## Brian2112 (Sep 11, 2017)

I might get flamed for this but Star Wars Rogue One had a score so bad it actually took away from the movie (for me at least). The parts that were good were not original and the parts that were original were not good. A very well orchestrated nothing burger. Many people on this forum could have done way better. Just my opinion.


----------



## will_m (Sep 11, 2017)

Brian2112 said:


> I might get flamed for this but Star Wars Rogue One had a score so bad it actually took away from the movie (for me at least). The parts that were good were not original and the parts that were original were not good. A very well orchestrated nothing burger. Many people on this forum could have done way better. Just my opinion.



I think that was the one that was completed in 3-4 weeks.


----------



## Desire Inspires (Sep 11, 2017)

LMFAO!

People care more about the music than the film. Just goes to show that everyone is a critic and no one is happy with anything. 

If I were a studio exec, I'd put out whatever made the most money as well. The complainers will always be around. Always something to whine about: score wasn't moving, actors weren't good enough, script was poorly written, movie was too long, and on and on and on....

So much complaining about simple entertainment. SMH.


----------



## AR (Sep 11, 2017)

I think trailer music has nothing to do with the tone of a score. And as for memorable themes...composers simly don't know anymore to write a really good one.


----------



## FinGael (Sep 11, 2017)

Desire Inspires said:


> LMFAO!
> 
> People care more about the music than the film. Just goes to show that everyone is a critic and no one is happy with anything.
> 
> ...



I don't consider myself of being a complaining type of person in my life, but I felt deep peace while writing those rants. Said to my wife though that will probably be getting a lot of crap for those posts ;P

To sum it up; in general I see a steep decline in the quality of the content that comes from Hollywood. Something that advancements in CGI (+ processing power), camera technology, digital audio production and high audio loudness ceilings etc do no compensate. I think the ratings of the premieres of this summer show that people are starting to want something else. Trailers with their too often almost cloned soundtracks with the same kind of sfx and almost no dynamics are one part of the problem. I like ice cream too, but wouldn't want to eat it all the time every day.

And not against for example a good tension underscore in a movie; there is no need for always to have strong musical themes, but many times feels like the whole movie is lacking vision big time. Disposable entertainment, yeah, until the box offices are empty one day. It can turn against itself pretty quickly. There are already signs out there.

Saying it also as a director and a movie maker. I think it is more than a matter of personal taste. If that is a subject of laughing one's butt off, it is ok, but as a lifelong movie buff I feel differently.

Simple entertainment to some, something else to others.

And personally I would and will choose the music that feels the best for the film or the trailer.


----------



## ctsai89 (Sep 11, 2017)

none-memorable theme.. want to know what I would blame? 

America not have good enough k~12 music programs. 

Solfege isn't taught here therefore kids don't grow up listening to notes and melodies but more the sound design/etc or the "massiveness" of a track.


----------



## Kubler (Sep 11, 2017)

will_m said:


> I think that was the one that was completed in 3-4 weeks.



Correct. Alexandre Desplat left the project and Giachino had to replace him within barely a month. He could have done better with more time but in all fairness, that was still a pretty good job given the schedule.

At least, to link this with the subject of the topic : there was some memorable themes in it


----------



## Greg (Sep 11, 2017)

givemenoughrope said:


> Are there a lot of trailer composers here? What keeps it interesting for you? Is there enough work that isn't of the deafening variety? Like a low-key drama or Western or something? (Do those movies still get made?)



The $10,000 - $30,000 checks for compositions that took maybe a day or two to create keep it interesting... 

Plus I know it's unfathomable but many people love epic trailer music and there certainly are a lot of very inspired and emotional cues out there.


----------



## givemenoughrope (Sep 11, 2017)

Greg said:


> The $10,000 - $30,000 checks for compositions that took maybe a day or two to create keep it interesting...
> 
> Plus I know it's unfathomable but many people love epic trailer music and there certainly are a lot of very inspired and emotional cues out there.



It's not totally unfathomable. I went to concert for Immediate Music several years back. It was...interesting. 

So, it's like the ad game? Cattle call (unless you're a big name)? Except maybe a smaller pool and overall higher payout?


----------



## Desire Inspires (Sep 11, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> none-memorable theme.. want to know what I would blame?
> 
> America not have good enough k~12 music programs.
> 
> Solfege isn't taught here therefore kids don't grow up listening to notes and melodies but more the sound design/etc or the "massiveness" of a track.



Oh please.


----------



## ctsai89 (Sep 11, 2017)

Desire Inspires said:


> Oh please.



haha I haven't elaborated it yet...


----------



## gamma-ut (Sep 12, 2017)

One other thing strikes me from the OP's video link and title. What is the value of a memorable tune in a soundtrack in deciding its overall worth?

There is nothing hummable in Jerry Goldsmith's Planet of the Apes score. Does this make it a bad score? Does it stop the score from being distinctive?

Similarly, David Shire's atonal jazz in the original Taking of Pelham 123? There's a memorable rhythmic motif in the main titles but, again, the music itself is not exactly something you're going to sing in the shower. But I'd take it over the Harry Potter Owl Theme, which does wind up grating after a while like any earworm.


----------



## Andrajas (Sep 12, 2017)

Call me dumb, but why compare trailer music to a full film soundtrack? Sure they should both tell a story, but its very different, different format requires different things. 

And about memorable "themes", sure that may have decreased, but its seems that people forget: Film composers work for someone. They don't decide what the music is supposed to be. Directors and producers seems to want more of a texture and sound-score nowadays. Blaming other composer for being responsible for that is just ridiculous in my opinon. I bet they can write good melodies, if they were totally allowed. And remember, the composers background nowadays differs very much from back in the days....


----------



## mac (Sep 12, 2017)

I'm guessing 10% of the people posting have actually watched the video.


----------



## gamma-ut (Sep 12, 2017)

mac said:


> I'm guessing 10% of the people posting have actually watched the video.



I skipped through it simply because the premise of the video is dumb and seemed to opt for the standard YT approach of stretching out the material to last as long as possible. It seemed to contain a lot of motherhood and apple pie about motive or theme usage in the middle, summarising with the equally dumb conclusion that what film producers want is for people to remember a tune. Then again "video response" is generally a giant red flag for any YT video.

What actual point were you hoping to make based on this video? What insights am I missing?


----------



## FinGael (Sep 12, 2017)

mac said:


> I'm guessing 10% of the people posting have actually watched the video.



Oops. "Guilty as charged, your honor"


----------



## mac (Sep 12, 2017)

gamma-ut said:


> I skipped through it simply because the premise of the video is dumb and seemed to opt for the standard YT approach of stretching out the material to last as long as possible. It seemed to contain a lot of motherhood and apple pie about motive or theme usage in the middle, summarising with the equally dumb conclusion that what film producers want is for people to remember a tune. Then again "video response" is generally a giant red flag for any YT video.
> 
> What actual point were you hoping to make based on this video? What insights am I missing?



Not my point, theirs, (which I find interesting) is that one of the reasons the public can hum the themes to star wars etc, is that the themes were used alongside their marketing, including trailers. Modern movies more often than not use completely unrelated trailer tracks. Really, the video makes the point far better than I can with words.


----------



## gamma-ut (Sep 12, 2017)

As I've already demonstrated, the original Star Wars trailer did not use JW's music for promotion. It clearly had no deleterious impact on the memorability of the main theme. Only when the movie became a surprise runaway success did merchandising make the theme practically ubiquitous.

Movie trailers often use unrelated music because the score isn't complete when the trailer is put together. This should probably not come as a surprise. The 1977 Star Wars trailer was clearly made before they had completed the main titles as the logo is just bog standard Helvetica. 

And I'm still at a loss to understand why it matters other than the fact Marvel movie fans will snatch at any piece of promotion they find on YT, making the trailers seem more important than they really are.


----------



## mac (Sep 12, 2017)

Using the 'original' star wars trailer is a bad example as like you say, that release was scrapped. The 'real' star wars trailer is in the video. Its still clear you haven't watched the video either, and you probably won't by the sounds of it, so there's little point discussing it?


----------



## gamma-ut (Sep 12, 2017)

OK, provide the timestamps where the video shows the Star Wars trailer. The first use appears to be from the opening credits. The two trailers shown are for the sequels as far as I can tell. You've watched it yourself, right?

And you posed a question in the OP. Are we not allowed to discuss that? People seem to be doing that quite happily. Or was the point to only discuss memorable trailers in the context of Comic Cult movies?


----------



## Puzzlefactory (Sep 12, 2017)

I don't think that's the case. Trailer music serves a specific purpose to help sell the film. 

You wouldn't blame a Trailer editor for a lame move script so why would you for the music...?


----------



## tabulius (Sep 12, 2017)

gamma-ut said:


> Movie trailers often use unrelated music because the score isn't complete when the trailer is put together.



Nope, this is not true excatly. Trailers are a thing of their own - and trailer's mood can differ from a film and its soundtrack. Trailer music as a genre is a bit different than film music. Is trailer music more straightforward and simple? Yes it might, but simple things make a big impact and gives room for the visuals.

And as being said, trailers are building the excitement and promoting the film. No need to introduce soundtrack themes, altough sometimes that works too. Trailer music often also has a lot of sound design and sometimes it is just a pulse that gives energy to the scenes.

If somebody is sad and offended about trailer music, you should try to recover by listening some classical works or John Williams. I don't get upset about a shampoo ad either.

Back to writing trailer music...


----------



## JeffvR (Sep 12, 2017)

Trailer music is just there to "grab the attention". It seems the only reason. People don't seem to care if their trailer has it's own unique music which suits the tone of the film.


----------



## will_m (Sep 12, 2017)

JeffvR said:


> Trailer music is just there to "grab the attention". It seems the only reason. People don't seem to care if their trailer has it's own unique music which suits the tone of the film.



Disagree, for example here is the trailer music for Dunkirk, it has a number of sonic similarities to the films soundtrack, as do a fair few custom score trailers.


----------



## Greg (Sep 12, 2017)

JeffvR said:


> Trailer music is just there to "grab the attention". It seems the only reason. People don't seem to care if their trailer has it's own unique music which suits the tone of the film.



What planet are you on? There wouldn't be hundreds of trailer houses and hundreds of trailer music libraries if no one gave a shit. So many trailers are meticulously crafted to grab your emotions and sound like the world of the movie. Some trailers are total garbage but many are brilliant too.


----------



## Replicant (Sep 12, 2017)

Some of you take this shit just _way_ too seriously.

Anyway, I don't think trailer music is to blame.

I'd argue that the limitations of sample libraries of yore, which very much restricted you to writing for what the samples were good at (spiccato strings, anyone?) and the resulting style being suitable for the aesthetic of most blockbuster films in a post "Batman Begins" world.


----------



## Desire Inspires (Sep 12, 2017)

Replicant said:


> Some of you take this shit just _way_ too seriously.



Agreed.

Many of those that don't care will end up making more money from doing boring office jobs while the many that do care will struggle to find steady work.

But all is not lost. I guess that is a good thing, as the next superstars of film score/trailer/whatever-comes-next composers will be born from the chaos!


----------



## JohnG (Sep 12, 2017)

The OP put up a video that asserted a very narrow claim -- that Marvel films, except The Avengers, don't have memorable themes.

The title of the thread, however, is much more general, asking if trailer music in general has wrecked melody in general in movies. 

Almost anything you could write about trailers and film music will have exceptions, but a couple of general points:

*1. Time:* The OP's video emphasises that you can actually _hear_ the Avengers theme at big moments in the movie. By contrast, precious little "real estate" is allocated to music in most films today. Think of Barry's "Out of Africa" or "Dances with Wolves" themes -- whether you like them or not they are really conspicuous and play for a full minute or more -- the main them in Out of Africa is two full minutes if you play the most famous bit. 

The filmmaker PLANNED it that way. The film luxuriates in music during that time. Filmmakers rarely seem to want that now.

*2. Music takes courage:* I have seen directors visibly recoil when anything that I'd call "music" gets suggested. Often they seem actually afraid of it; I think that accounts for some of the issue, especially with action movies, but in others as well.

*3. Other Genres Still have themes:* Some rom-coms, especially historical ones, have quite memorable themes, that are played throughout the movie and can be a bit catchy. It remains part of the genre.

*4. Most trailer music has almost nothing to do with the production:* The people choosing the trailers are not usually the filmmakers, and the score is not usually written when the film starts its advertising run. A lot of trailer placements has been pre-written music that wasn't even conceived for the specific trailer.


----------



## JeffvR (Sep 13, 2017)

Greg said:


> What planet are you on? There wouldn't be hundreds of trailer houses and hundreds of trailer music libraries if no one gave a shit. So many trailers are meticulously crafted to grab your emotions and sound like the world of the movie. Some trailers are total garbage but many are brilliant too.


I'm on earth. What I was trying to say, some trailer tracks are used 100+ times across different trailers, that's not unique and most of the time it has nothing to do with the music in the film itself.


----------



## will_m (Sep 13, 2017)

JeffvR said:


> I'm on earth. What I was trying to say, some trailer tracks are used 100+ times across different trailers, that's not unique and most of the time it has nothing to do with the music in the film itself.




I don't get what you're trying to say here, every genre or style has it's conventions and staples. Do you listen to rock and say oh no they're using distorted power chords again or hear some blues and think man I hate that 12 bar progression they keep doing.

Trailers use certain conventions because they work, some people will choose to keep using them and others will evolve the convention to something new.


----------



## JeffvR (Sep 13, 2017)

will_m said:


> I don't get what you're trying to say here, every genre or style has it's conventions and staples. Do you listen to rock and say oh no they're using distorted power chords again or hear some blues and think man I hate that 12 bar progression they keep doing.
> 
> Trailers use certain conventions because they work, some people will choose to keep using them and others will evolve the convention to something new.



My point is not about conventions and staples. When I'm watching a trailer I want to be immersed into the world of THAT film. So also the world of sound for that film. I liked the example of Dunkirk by the way.. but you don't see that very often.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr (Sep 13, 2017)

will_m said:


> I don't get what you're trying to say here, every genre or style has it's conventions and staples. Do you listen to rock and say oh no they're using distorted power chords again or hear some blues and think man I hate that 12 bar progression they keep doing.
> 
> Trailers use certain conventions because they work, some people will choose to keep using them and others will evolve the convention to something new.



Look, Jeff probably wanted just to point out that it doesn´t matter if the music is in the film / trailer "a" or film "b". Using powerchords and electric distortion in rock / metal doesn´t mean that the music has to be the the same. Using string instruments and short articulations in orchestral productions doesn´t mean we all have to do another generic Zimmer 16th notes ostinato. Sure if you do willingly so, then this can become a parody. Typical trailer music devices like the inception braams, godzilla drums and the emotional delay piano is a parody because they are overused clichee and they are used without any reason and context. There is no focal point and motivation to support the drama, just more to fill out the space with soundeffects and snippets of notes. It is a bit like Mickey Mousing in cartoons. Done in slight moderation, it can be effective. And Jeff said it: Those devices are just there to grab attention. I think music is not the focal point of storytelling in such cases anymore how it was back then, so it feels often like a filler for a scene where they need music to put in just to have something, regardless what the scenes drama is really about.


----------



## will_m (Sep 13, 2017)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Look, Jeff probably wanted just to point out that it doesn´t matter if the music is in the film / trailer "a" or film "b". Using powerchords and electric distortion in rock / metal doesn´t mean that the music has to be the the same. Using string instruments and short articulations in orchestral productions doesn´t mean we all have to do another generic Zimmer 16th notes ostinato. Sure if you do willingly so, then this can become a parody. Typical trailer music devices like the inception braams, godzilla drums and the emotional delay piano is a parody because they are overused clichee and they are used without any reason and context. There is no focal point and motivation to support the drama, just more to fill out the space with soundeffects and snippets of notes. It is a bit like Mickey Mousing in cartoons. Done in slight moderation, it can be effective. And Jeff said it: Those devices are just there to grab attention. I think music is not the focal point of storytelling in such cases anymore how it was back then, so it feels often like a filler for a scene where they need music to put in just to have something, regardless what the scenes drama is really about.



Your statement seem contradictory to me, you say that using strings and short articulations in orchestral music doesn't mean we all have to play ostinatos but in trailer music using braaams, godzilla drums (note sure what you mean here) and piano are somehow "without reason or context".

To me they are just tools that can be used in a number of ways, every genre has the same thing, there is recognisable instrumentation and progressions in all. Can they be overused without any alteration, sure.

It seems to boil down to a base level of respect for another genre, where if its not perceived to be complex enough or somehow unique then it isn't worthy. I'd recommend to anyone who feels this way of any genre, try producing something to the standard of the top players and see how well you fare.


----------



## JohnG (Sep 13, 2017)

Greg said:


> Some trailers are total garbage but many are brilliant too.



Very true, Greg.



will_m said:


> I'd recommend to anyone who feels this way of any genre, try producing something to the standard of the top players and see how well you fare.



Very true, Will. Every time I try a type of music that seems easy, I find it's not... so... easy.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 13, 2017)

John:



> Every time I try a type of music that seems easy, I find it's not... so... easy.



Jawohl.

And it seems unlikely that I'm the only one who finds everything but what I'm working on at the time very easy. 

***

I haven't read this entire thread, but at the risk of stating the bleeding obvious: the reason trailers don't usually use the theme (unless it's a film version of a well-known TV show or something) is that... they're not the film, they're advertisements for it! More often than not, it's just music to support exciting cuts.


----------



## Replicant (Sep 13, 2017)

JohnG said:


> Very true, Will. Every time I try a type of music that seems easy, I find it's not... so... easy.



I have personally found that the supposedly "simple" music, like trailer music or ambient stuff, is the most disarmingly difficult to create with both authenticity, and a compelling piece on its own.



AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Using powerchords and electric distortion in rock / metal doesn´t mean that the music has to be the the same.



I would say this example works entirely against your point.

All of that music _is_ almost all the same, just with subtle variances that, to varying degrees, justified calling it a new "sub-genre". I mean, metal music is the only genre on Earth, where people try to convince you that singing about a given subject consitutes a new sub-genre.

"Pirate-metal" isn't a thing, no matter how badly "Running Wild" or "Alestorm" and their fans kick and scream. The former is no different from the typical 70s - 80s NWOBHM band.

_Regardless_, you will not find a metal band where palm mutes and dyads aren't the defining, universal feature of the genre. That's true as far back as Rainbow to as current as Arch Enemy.

I feel this strongly ties in with my "limitations of samples" argument, because with the required distortion, the electric guitar _forces_ you to play in this rhythm style — I'd go so far as to argue that it is limitations such as these that define genres.
*
To quote Kip Winger*: "I was really into Black Sabbath, but heavy guitars can really be very limiting, it's a great frequency and it's great fun to listen to but on the other hand, musically you can do a lot more without it."


----------



## Kony (Sep 14, 2017)

What a JW Close Encounters trailer looks like today....


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr (Sep 14, 2017)

Kony said:


> What a JW Close Encounters trailer looks like today....




First I thought that this is a humourous post by you, but it is an official trailer. And what do you think?


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr (Sep 14, 2017)

Here is the btw the original trailer from 1977:


----------



## Fab (Sep 14, 2017)

My friend who makes trailer music says he can't even listen to JW stuff now because in comparison...it sounds 'puny' and not massive enough.


----------



## jononotbono (Sep 14, 2017)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Here is the btw the original trailer from 1977:




Why are you comparing trailers from the 70's to now? The world that (most) people live in now has completely changed! Even the format of a trailer from the 70's compared to today is completely incomparable! The original trailer is like a behind the scenes Blu Ray extra. Do you honestly think that the approach of old, including the musical style, would actually get people in the cinema of today? Because that's the whole point of a trailer right? To get people into the cinema and parting with their hard earned money. Death at the box office comes to mind.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr (Sep 14, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> Why are you comparing trailers from the 70's to now? The world that (most) people live in now has completely changed! Even the format of a trailer from the 70's compared to today is completely incomparable! The original trailer is like a behind the scenes Blu Ray extra. Do you honestly think that the approach of old, including the musical style, would actually get people in the cinema of today? Because that's the whole point of a trailer right? To get people into the cinema and parting with their hard earned money. Death at the box office comes to mind.



Did I say that? Neither I said that it is appealing to the people nowadays, nore I postulated any comparison here. I posted it for completion. What you like better is a very personal decision of your own taste. When you like the new trailer, it is fine! The rest is up to your own interpretation. If you think the new trailer works better than the old one to the nowadays audience: Yes you are completely right with that. But do I have to like the new one just because it works better for the actuall audience? Nope.


----------



## Kony (Sep 14, 2017)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> First I thought that this is a humourous post by you, but it is an official trailer. And what do you think?


That's correct, it's an official trailer for the updated 4K re-release on 19th September. I don't think a trailer is even needed for the 4k release of this movie anyway. Having said that, I felt certain elements were almost tongue-in-cheek deliberately corny-cliché and made me laugh. It reminded me of this for some reason....


----------



## gamma-ut (Sep 14, 2017)

The new CE3K trailer basically fast-forwards through the movie. It's a nostalgia sell: "remember all these great bits?"

The original was much of a teaser, as you'd expect, interspersed between "this guy made a movie you probably liked, guess what, he did this one, why not go see it". And is really long.

Neither is particularly conventional for a trailer, modern or old though I think it's interesting to contrast the approaches.


----------



## Replicant (Sep 14, 2017)

Kony said:


> That's correct, it's an official trailer for the updated 4K re-release on 19th September. I don't think a trailer is even needed for the 4k release of this movie anyway. Having said that, I felt certain elements were almost tongue-in-cheek deliberately corny-cliché and made me laugh. It reminded me of this for some reason....




That's _nothing. _AMC has them all beat


----------

