# Your thoughts on Native Instruments M32/A25 & Komplete Kontrol



## pmountford (Jun 15, 2020)

I'm interested to hear your thoughts on how you integrate NI NKS etc to see if I'd find it a benefit in joining the NI bandwagon with an M32 keyboard controller.

I'm not looking at replacing my 88 key master keyboard but was interested in something like the A25/M32 to introduce some tactile control. Most of my music is created in Cubase using Kontakt libs from SF/OT/8DIO/K12U and VSL libraries with synths from the likes of UHE and Omnisphere. So I focus more on orchestral libs and therefore not an EDM producer. 

Look forwards to hearing how you use these NI Controllers in your studio and your thoughts as to whether I'd really benefit when using orchestral libraries.


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## josephspirits (Jun 15, 2020)

Not sure if you'll find this helpful, but I picked up an M32 when it was on sale (on Amazon, which I haven't seen since) to test out Komplete Kontrol, without having to go for a new keyboard. I was thinking that it would be good to have for mobile use, but I actually keep it right about my mac keyboard now, with my main 88 keyboard under the desk. The great thing about this setup is that you can use Komplete Kontrol functions of the M32 keyboard while playing the same instrument on the bigger keyboard, on the same midi channel. So for example if I have the knobs of the M32 mapped to an instrument in Komplete Kontrol I can tweak away while still playing the full size keyboard, which I don't have any mapping controls on, so it's basically like just extending my existing keyboard. 

Maybe that's an obvious thing, but it hadn't clicked for me until I started learning more about Komplete Kontrol. 

Alternatively I also find it helpful as a second midi channel from my full size weighted keyboard (Kurzweill PC88). It's smaller, lighter, and encourages a different style of playing, which I like to embrace. I might have a darker piano or bass on the main keyboard, and then something high like a glock or toy piano, or even a sampler triggering different things, up on the little M32.


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## pmountford (Jun 15, 2020)

josephspirits said:


> Not sure if you'll find this helpful...


Yes, that's the sort of helpful thoughts/uses I wanted to hear about! Thanks for that.


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## SupremeFist (Jun 15, 2020)

Same here, m32 plus 88-key weighted is great.


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## el-bo (Jun 15, 2020)

I have the M32, and generally like the keyboard. Can't stand the pitch/mod touch-strips, though :(


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## pmountford (Jun 15, 2020)

el-bo said:


> I have the M32, and generally like the keyboard. Can't stand the pitch/mod touch-strips, though :(


Can the Pitch/Mod strips be assigned to control anything else or are fixed to Pitch & Mod?


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## el-bo (Jun 15, 2020)

pmountford said:


> Can the Pitch/Mod strips be assigned to control anything else or are fixed to Pitch & Mod?



The mod-wheel seemed to always be assignable via midi-learn. As for reassigning the pitchbend? Never tried it, although it seems like Logic can do it (The only caveat being that there's currently no way to to change the sprung-loaded, return-to-centre behaviour of the 'wheel'). 

Here's Christian Henson talking about it:


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## pmountford (Jun 15, 2020)

el-bo said:


> Here's Christian Henson talking about it...



Christian says it can be assigned to Expression and Dynamic which is cool. Looking forwards to getting one of these now. Thanks for this vid link.


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## el-bo (Jun 15, 2020)

pmountford said:


> Christian says it can be assigned to Expression and Dynamic which is cool. Looking forwards to getting one of these now. Thanks for this vid link.



Yes! But you need to check if Cubase will allow you to modify the MIDI info, or whether there is a separate app that'll do it. Also, unless NI come up with a way to stop the default spring-loaded behaviour for pitch-bend, it's going to be quite annoying. 

Anyway, like I said, I didn't like using the strips. not only does the modwheel give no indication of it's current position, but I didn't find them very smooth to use. As such, I no longer use it.


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## jononotbono (Jun 15, 2020)

I bought an M32 to travel to NY with. I’d say it’s the greatest controller I’ve ever owned. It fits in a backpack, has just enough keys to get ideas out, the knobs are CC assignable. Has foot pedal 1/4” Jack. Obviously if you want to actually play Piano then it’s far too small but it’s a travel keyboard. 

The only thing I wish was changed about the design is for the USB and Footswitch 1/4” Jack to be out of either side instead of out the back. If they were out of the side, I could have the M32 flush with my qwerty keyboard/Raven/Laptop. It’s justsomething that annoys me. Otherwise, I love it.


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## josephspirits (Jun 18, 2020)

There were some updates in the last 6 months I think to make assigning it easier but I think you can basically assign the controls to anything you want in the separate Komplete Kontrol software as a patch, then recall and switch between those patches on the keyboard itself. But Komplete Kontrol assignments only work if you have the kontakt instrument opening up in the Komplete Kontrol "shell", rather than just straight Kontakt. It took me a bit to realize a workflow to best use it, but I basically made templates that make sense for me for things like the Spitfire Mercury synths, then can load up the template anytime I open up one of those synth patches within the Komplete Kontrol plugin in my DAW (Logic).

Also maybe a good place to mention that you can get that Kontakt view you are used to within Komplete Kontrol by going to *view *> *edit view*, that was big for me!


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## pmountford (Jun 18, 2020)

josephspirits said:


> Also maybe a good place to mention that you can get that Kontakt view you are used to within Komplete Kontrol by going to *view *> *edit view*, that was big for me!


Thanks for this info. Mine's just turned up today so looking forwards to have a play tomorrow.


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## Rory (Jun 18, 2020)

Developer Maxime Luft uses an M32 throughout his walkthrough of his new library for Orchestral Tools:





In the thread here about the library, he said of the M32: "I just really enjoy a small, portable setup where you don't have to route tons of equipment together".

Link to the thread: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/new-tableau-solo-strings-by-organic-samples—intro-offer-€89.93917/


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## dcoscina (Jun 18, 2020)

I have both M32 and A49. They are nice boards. When my Kurzweil finally dies i will probably get the S88mk2. I like the key action of the Roland A88mk2 better but I’d get a better deal on the NI since I work at a music store.


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## MisteR (Jun 18, 2020)

I have the arturia. It’s useful, but I’m not a fan of mini keys. Too stiff. I want them to be more craptastic.


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## Instrugramm (Jun 18, 2020)

Probably used my M32 to write more songs than my S61 or my Yamaha CLP 470. It's just small and easy to play around with when looking for sounds and generally working. I use the latter to "perfect" stuff, but most ideas for melodies actually might improve if you limit yourself in terms of possiblities (keys) or maybe it's just the way I try to work around repeating myself...^^


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 19, 2020)

First up, I didn't see it coming, but the M32 is now my main controller sitting pride of place on the desk. I have an 88 controller to the side if I need it. I'm spending 80% of my production time using just the M32. The ergonomics benefits are huge.

Pros

The actual size of each key is bigger than most "mini keyboards."
Nice integration with Logic out of the box.
KK, obviously.
Cons

There's an annoying bug, documented on the NI forum whereby the M32 Logic integration stops working if you: Open Logic > Use the KK plugin at any point. > Close Logic (or restart from crash) > Open Logic again. Rebooting fixes the issue but it's annoying AF and has stopped me using the KK plugin for the time being.
The touch strips aren't as good as wheels. There's also "lag" whilst transmitting midi CC and noticeable steps. The encoders in midi mode have the same issue. In general use, you don't notice it too much but if you're watching the midi monitor, it'll trigger any OCD tendencies.
I'd happily pay NI more money for a Mk2 version with proper wheels and an extended LCD strip below the encoders, like the Mk1 Komplete Kontrol keyboards.


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## Rory (Jun 19, 2020)

Just checked the dimensions of an M32 against a Nektar Impact LX25+ that I have. The dimensions are basically the same except that the M32 is 6.6" deep vs 10.5" (16.7cm vs 26.6cm). For my purposes, that isn't significant, although it would be if I needed to carry a keyboard from place to place.


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## el-bo (Jun 19, 2020)

Alex Fraser said:


> The touch strips aren't as good as wheels. There's also "lag" whilst transmitting midi CC and noticeable steps. This is a flaw of the encoders, too. In general use, you don't notice this too much but if you're watching the midi monitor, It'll trigger any OCD tendencies.



Yup! 

I also can't stand the clunkiness of the buttons and other click mechanisms. Using the jog-wheel might ave been a nice experience but for the thud on every selection. And now that I've distanced myself from the whole KK concept (One whole unnecessary level of abstraction, for my purposes), the thing is just gathering dust...A LOT of dust


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 19, 2020)

el-bo said:


> And now that I've distanced myself from the whole KK concept (One whole unnecessary level of abstraction, for my purposes), the thing is just gathering dust...A LOT of dust


Bugs aside, I've tended to keep the KK plugin at arms length. For me, where it shines is browsing though Kontakt based "synth" libraries like Spitfire's eEDNA earth, where doing the same in Kontakt itself is like walking through mud.

I was using the plugin as an audio browser but the arrival of the new audio sampler features in Logic knocked that on the head.

Still a good keyboard though, well worth the entry price.


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## Reid Rosefelt (Jun 19, 2020)

Just so everyone knows, you don't need to own a Native Instruments keyboard in order to quickly cycle through and audition the presets in any NKS library. 

You can use the up and down arrows on your computer keyboard. 

Just make sure you've downloaded the preset audio files.


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## el-bo (Jun 19, 2020)

Alex Fraser said:


> Bugs aside, I've tended to keep the KK plugin at arms length. For me, where it shines is browsing though Kontakt based "synth" libraries like Spitfire's eEDNA earth, where doing the same in Kontakt itself is like walking through mud.
> 
> I was using the plugin as an audio browser but the arrival of the new audio sampler features in Logic knocked that on the head.
> 
> Still a good keyboard though, well worth the entry price.



I can see that it would be of benefit in use-cases such as you mentioned. In fact, if all developers were on board, and provided fully-compliant (with audio files functionality), it would be more useful. It's clear, however, that many developers aren't interested in hitching their wagon to someone else's idea of a standard. 

Even if all developers were happy to join in (And if it were somehow able to catalogue DAW-native synths), I'd still probably prefer to navigate the KK interface by QWERTY


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## jononotbono (Jun 19, 2020)

Alex Fraser said:


> Cons
> 
> There's an annoying bug, documented on the NI forum whereby the M32 Logic integration stops working if you: Open Logic > Use the KK plugin at any point. > Close Logic (or restart from crash) > Open Logic again. Rebooting fixes the issue but it's annoying AF and has stopped me using the KK plugin for the time being.
> The touch strips aren't as good as wheels. There's also "lag" whilst transmitting midi CC and noticeable steps. The encoders in midi mode have the same issue. In general use, you don't notice it too much but if you're watching the midi monitor, it'll trigger any OCD tendencies.



The biggest con is not having enough keys to play the Piano anything involving two hands and more than 2 chords. But hey, it's a travel keyboard so it can't really be counted. I've written more music with this thing that I have for years but it's only because it's what I've currently got. 88 Keys is always nice but even a 61 synth action would do me for writing. I always want 88 keys for noodling around and trying to play a Piano but I just don't write much Piano music so it's not a problem... and chop sticks in manageable on the M32 

Yes, the Touch Strips (as replacements for Mod and Pitch) are dog shit. Great for creative FX etc though. But they are equally as dog shit on every other NI keyboard. Even worse they put a Ribbon UNDERNEATH the Mod and Pitch wheels they finally brought back after so many complained. Why isn't the Ribbon ABOVE the Mod and Pitch? Would have been fantastic!


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## Rory (Jun 22, 2020)

pmountford said:


> Thanks for this info. Mine's just turned up today so looking forwards to have a play tomorrow.



What do you think of it? A keeper? Not?


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## pmountford (Jun 22, 2020)

Rory said:


> What do you think of it? A keeper? Not?


Deffo a keeper at the moment. But not had enough time with it although it does far more than I thought for the money...


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## Reid Rosefelt (Jun 22, 2020)

I've read this with great interest.

NKS is an essential part of my workflow. I love it. I owned an S49 MKI and now have an S88 MKII.

The NKS implementation on the M32 was completely different. I was hoping it would work like the others, only without the light guides. I was very disappointed. And you can't have two NKS controllers plugged into Komplete Kontrol at the same time. I sold it as soon as NI would allow it.

If you don't need a travel instrument, I would never give a second thought to the M32 over the A25. The A25 has much better NKS implementation. And it prepares you for getting one of the others someday.

But one of the best things about NKS is the light guides, so IMHO the best choice would be to get a used S25.

But I'm glad everybody likes the M32.


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## Rory (Jun 22, 2020)

TigerTheFrog said:


> If you don't need a travel instrument, I would never give a second thought to the M32 over the A25. The A25 has much better NKS implementation.



Dimensions (from Sweetwater):

A25 (US$170): 19.2" (width) x 10.1" (depth) x 3.5" (height)

M32 ($140): 18.7" x 6.6" x 2"


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## Reid Rosefelt (Jun 22, 2020)

Rory said:


> Dimensions:
> 
> A25 (US$170): 19.2" (width) x 10.1" (depth) x 3.5" (height)
> 
> M32 ($140): 18.7" x 6.6" x 2"


The A25 is probably a lot heavier too. I don't think an A25 is a toss in the backpack instrument. It's better for the desk and fine for a gig.

But if anybody can actually play piano and has the room, I think they should get a bigger one and an S-series one for the light guides.

I think that a lot of people who are liking it see it as a second keyboard.


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## Rory (Jun 22, 2020)

TigerTheFrog said:


> The A25 is probably a lot heavier too. I don't think an A25 is a toss in the backpack instrument. It's better for the desk and fine for a gig.
> 
> But if anybody can actually play piano and has the room, I think they should get a bigger one and an S-series one for the light guides.
> 
> I think that a lot of people who are liking it see it as a second keyboard.



Weight (from Sweetwater):

A25: 5.3 lb.

M32: 2.3 lb.


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## Instrugramm (Jun 22, 2020)

I rarely use Komplete Kontrol with my M32 to be honest (the S61 has a better implementation because of its screen), it's simply a good midi controller. Whether You can use M32 and S61 in the same Komplete Kontrol Instance, that I don't know but I would think so. As for the touch strip, it's great for jumps instead of increasing modulation, can come in handy when working with synths or effects.


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## jononotbono (Jun 22, 2020)

Instrugramm said:


> I rarely use Komplete Kontrol with my M32 to be honest (the S61 has a better implementation because of its screen), it's simply a good midi controller.



Exactly. I never use Komplete Kontrol either.


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## pmountford (Jun 23, 2020)

TigerTheFrog said:


> The NKS implementation on the M32 was completely different. I was hoping it would work like the others, only without the light guides. I was very disappointed.


Would you mind explaining what the M32 lacks that is in the A25? I was under the impression that the M32 just has smaller keys and a smaller footprint. Does the A25 implement Komplete Kontrol more thoroughly? (I'm not looking to go any larger as I have no intention of replacing my 88 keys keyboard.)


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## oboemaroni (Jun 23, 2020)

I have the M32, which I bought as a way of trying out the workflow - being able to easily browse through the thousands of presets I have in multiple VSTs has really opened up instruments I wasn't using very much, and the small form factor is great for having on my keyboard shelf for quick sketching. That said I wouldn't upgrade to the full size/full feature versions for a few reasons:

- The workflow falls short of the mouse-free experience I want, for example you can't add new tracks from the keyboard, you can't set a tempo beyond tapping
- The audio preview is temperamental, sometimes certain instruments lose their previews altogether for no reason I can work out
- I don't completely trust that NI will continue to support the Kontrol wrapper given their record with older products like Kore, which means if I rely on it completely I could end up down the line not being able to access any old projects
- I don't think 8 encoders and no faders is enough
- The S keyboards are too expensive given all the above

Also my M32 has developed a weird jitter on one of the encoders which means it's constantly knocking the automation off one of my DAW tracks. For the cost of the cheapest board it's worth it, but I'm glad I didn't spend more.


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## Reid Rosefelt (Jun 23, 2020)

pmountford said:


> Would you mind explaining what the M32 lacks that is in the A25? I was under the impression that the M32 just has smaller keys and a smaller footprint. Does the A25 implement Komplete Kontrol more thoroughly? (I'm not looking to go any larger as I have no intention of replacing my 88 keys keyboard.)



I was wrong, so I apologize for that. To be honest, I never explored the A series because I have S series keyboards. Without knowing, I made the faulty assumption that they were just like the S series, only without light guides, IDs under the knobs, only one controller plug, etc. 

As far as I can tell, from the point of view of NKS, the A25 is identical to the M32 aside from size and having real wheels instead of sliders. The old S25 (which has lightguides) was a much better deal, but they don't sell it anymore.

Thank you for pointing out my error. I feel bad about spreading bad information. I want to do a video about NKS someday and get into some of the details that many don't know, like the ability to switch patches from the arrow keys on a computer keyboard.


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 23, 2020)

TigerTheFrog said:


> I want to do a video about NKS someday and get into some of the details that many don't know, like the ability to switch patches from the arrow keys on a computer keyboard.


Funny you should say that. Prior to getting the M32, I set up a Korg Nano Kontrol to control Komplete Kontrol. (That's one hell of a sentence...) It worked really nicely. You don't need any of the NI products to get the basic KK experience going, although spinning through presets using the jog wheel *is* fun.

The big draw for me was the 8 chunky encoders placed exactly where I want them. I use them more as midi controllers and for DAW use than I do for KK stuff.

But like another poster said, there's always that suspicion that that NI will move the goal posts at some point. Put it this way: I can almost guarantee that a project created today using Logic stock stuff will open perfectly in 10 years time. I really can't say the same for KK.

Also, whilst the product is a huge testament to the skill of the NI folk, there's so many moving parts to a KK installation (the background processes etc) to get it all working that..well, I worry. The current issue with Logic is a case in point.

But I can see why others love it so much. As a way of powering through Komplete for example, it's amazing.


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## pmountford (Jun 23, 2020)

TigerTheFrog said:


> Thank you for pointing out my error. I feel bad about spreading bad information.


No need to apologise on my behalf - I was only querying as I'm new to this. But thanks for the update anyhow.


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