# So... who's got the best timpani?



## NoamL (Mar 3, 2019)

Hey all,

I'm assisting a composer who uses HZ01 Timpani as their go-to. We both love the sound of this timpani especially with the soft (felt?) mallets:



I've been trying to keep up with the timpani from Hollywood Orchestral Percussion, which I've got through ComposerCloud. It just doesn't sound as cinematic and dramatic:



Not just because of the room, but also the performance (it's lacking in lower dynamics).

I don't really want to buy HZ01 however (I'm all set for epic perc with lots of other libraries).

I've been thinking of making the QLSO Timpani my main timpani just because it has those nice lower dynamics:



But surely there is some standalone library out there that has a nice, cinematic, dramatic timpani with wide dynamic range, good "roaring" rolls, and suspenseful felt-mallet hits. Right?

So what are you all using these days?


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## markleake (Mar 3, 2019)

I have a few libs with Timpani, but none does the low dynamics like HZ01. Especially sustained rolls at very low dynamic, HZ01 is amazing. So yeah, sorry, no help from me except to just get HZ01.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Mar 3, 2019)

NoamL said:


> So what are you all using these days?



Here's a sample of the NI Symphony Series Percussion timpani.
[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ni-symphony-series-timp-mp3.18790/][/AUDIOPLUS]

As well as ISW Rhapsody (which I picked up a few days ago on flash sale).
[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/isw-rhapsody-timp-mp3.18791/][/AUDIOPLUS]



NoamL said:


> But surely there is some standalone library out there that has a nice, cinematic, dramatic timpani with wide dynamic range, good "roaring" rolls, and suspenseful felt-mallet hits. Right?


The standalones that come to mind are Orchestral Tools timpani and VSL. Personally, I've been trying to decide if I should go for HZ Perc, in part for the timpani, or maybe Orchestral Tool's timpani.


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## Mike Fox (Mar 3, 2019)

Not a big fan of the timpani in HZ01. Don't get me wrong, it is one of the better ones, but TS1 and Cineperc's timpani are the best in the industry, imho.

The timpani in HOP is one of the weakest I've ever heard.


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## sostenuto (Mar 3, 2019)

Audiobro /LADD /Tonal Perc /Tympani Cresc /Hits + Rolls /Hits w-ModWheel Rolls

NI _ Symphony Essentials Percussion / 2 Tuned Perc Percussion / Timpani


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## Kuusniemi (Mar 3, 2019)

My favorite Tympani is Modwheel's Timphonia: https://www.modwheel.co.nz/timphonia

Though it's more on the weird side of things...


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## StillLife (Mar 3, 2019)

Modwheel? Their Timphonia seems awesome.


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## babylonwaves (Mar 3, 2019)

HZ1 is my go to timpani. sorry, i know, it doesn't help you.


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## Calabraccio (Mar 3, 2019)

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/symphony-series-percussion.64359/page-3

WindcryMusic does some great direct comparisons here. I think it might depend on what role the timpani plays in the mix, even the less detailed stuff sounds like it could he handy.


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## Mason (Mar 3, 2019)

If I don't use HZ Timp I use Evolutionseries' Europe. It has mallets and sticks and 4 mic positions (close, overhead, room, far) and here are a few of them:

Mallets: Mixed mics
[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/timp-test-evolutionseries-mallets-mixed-mics-mp3.18792/][/AUDIOPLUS]

Sticks: Mixed mics
[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/timp-test-evolutionseries-sticks-mixed-mics-mp3.18793/][/AUDIOPLUS]

Mallets: Room mic
[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/timp-test-evolutionseries-mallets-room-mic-mp3.18794/][/AUDIOPLUS]

Mallets: Close mic
[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/timp-test-evolutionseries-mallets-close-mic-mp3.18795/][/AUDIOPLUS]

Mallets & sticks: Mixed mics
[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/timp-test-evolutionseries-mallets-stick-mixed-mics-mp3.18796/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Mar 3, 2019)

Strangely I'm not a fan of the timpani from HZ01. It was a relief when I got Ark3 and could replace them. Just a matter of taste maybe. 

The Berlin Series timpanis from OT (Standalone) are probably one of the most detailed out there.


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## ScoreFace (Mar 3, 2019)

NI Symphony Series Timpani is my absolute favourite - sounds beautiful and very playable with the drum head simulation.


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## Guffy (Mar 3, 2019)

CinePerc


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## OleJoergensen (Mar 3, 2019)

For a long time I used Hollywood timpany. I recently bought OT Timpany and it sounds great and more realistic I think. I have not yet tested it with the very loud dynamic thou. Maybe its a bit like Berlin brass, it does not play really loud.


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## Mike Fox (Mar 3, 2019)

whitewasteland said:


> Strangely I'm not a fan of the timpani from HZ01. It was a relief when I got Ark3 and could replace them. Just a matter of taste maybe.
> 
> The Berlin Series timpanis from OT (Standalone) are probably one of the most detailed out there.


Ah, man! How could I forget the timp in Ark3?! I also like that one waaaay more!


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## NoamL (Mar 3, 2019)

No offense to the other developers but these comparisons are really driving home how high-quality the timp is in HZ01.

Out of all the options mentioned so far, I think I like the Berlin Series Timp (aka "Expansion A") the best. I still have a 50 EUR voucher from BOI1 so it would be just 75 EUR.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Mar 3, 2019)

whitewasteland said:


> Strangely I'm not a fan of the timpani from HZ01. It was a relief when I got Ark3 and could replace them. Just a matter of taste maybe.





Mike Fox said:


> Ah, man! How could I forget the timp in Ark3?! I also like that one waaaay more!





Guffy said:


> CinePerc


If you get a chance, would one of you mind sharing a sample?


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Mar 3, 2019)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> If you get a chance, would one of you mind sharing a sample?



It is bed time here but I’ll be glad to upload some samples tomorrow morning if nobody did it


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## erica-grace (Mar 3, 2019)

Guffy said:


> CinePerc



Yes, best sounding tympani.


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## erica-grace (Mar 3, 2019)

These sound great:

http://www.ftsamples.com/


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## Mike Fox (Mar 3, 2019)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> If you get a chance, would one of you mind sharing a sample?


I'm on it like Bluebonnet.


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## dzilizzi (Mar 3, 2019)

I'm working on something now and ended up using the timpani from 8Dio's Majestica. Great rolls, crescendos and hit options. But they don't have an Epic Timpani yet and you probably don't want to buy Majestica just for the timpani. 

I'm trying to find a good one, but I'm traveling and my laptop is missing a lot of my libraries. And they probably aren't as good as HZP.


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## Brian Nowak (Mar 3, 2019)

I feel like this covers everything timpani I might need:

http://www.orchestraltools.com/libraries/bpc_exp_a.php


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## dexterjettser (Mar 3, 2019)

HZ timpani have so much character, but if I didn’t have them I’d probably go with anything by Orchestral Tools


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## Mike Fox (Mar 3, 2019)

Alright, so 4 (technically 3) timpanis for comparison sake: Cineperc, Ark 3, and HZ01 (bot Zimmer's and Junkie's).

I no longer have TS1, so I can't compare it to the others, sorry! But I personally feel that Cineperc has the best timpani out of the ones in this video. It just has a certain responsiveness, closeness and "oomph", whereas HZ's timpani sounds big because of the amount of reverb in the room, but it can sound washy and distant (you really have to be careful with how you use the mics). Listen how by just using the close mic, it begins to sound kinda small, and just meh? This timpani relies heavily on the room it's in for a great sound. Junkie's mix just sounds plain weird in the higher registry, but great in the lower pitches. I will say that HZ01 is an all around BRILLIANT layering library, but I could never recommend it as a go-to.

The timpani in Ark 3 is just a straight up awesome, but also suffers a bit from having too much reverb, imho. Aside from that, it's damn near perfect.


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## marclawsonmusic (Mar 3, 2019)

Hi Noam, check out LADD if you don't have it... but also give a thought to Evolution Series World Percussion - Europe. Some great sounding timps in there.

https://www.evolutionseries.com/?page_id=4525

EDIT: Nevermind, saw someone already linked that earlier - didn't read the whole thread. GLHF


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## Land of Missing Parts (Mar 3, 2019)

Mike Fox said:


> Alright, so 4 (technically 3) timpanis for comparison sake:


You rock Mike! Maybe I'll check out Ark 3 timpani when OT starts doing a la carte sales.


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## storyteller (Mar 3, 2019)

HZP Timpani and Evolution Series World Percussion Timpani are a great duo to have to choose from depending on what the song calls for. Very different, but both sit so well in the mix. I find Evolution Series Timpani is more versatile and I tend to use it more often. I own like four or five others, but those are my main two. Joey Burgess Spitfire Percussion works well too, but is more limited.


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## David Donaldson (Mar 3, 2019)

How can you resist this?


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## dogdad (Mar 3, 2019)

I also recommend Ni’s Symphony Series And Evolution Series Timpani. Both are great but I really like the flexibility of the Symphony Series Timpani. 

I also really need to get Timphonia!


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## Lilainjil (Mar 3, 2019)

Timphonia from Modwheel and the remarkable Timpani on Fire from ftsamples


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## Casiquire (Mar 3, 2019)

I don't see any love for VSL here, and they tend to be some of my favorite libraries. I don't have much experience with their timps, what do others think?


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## Joe Totino (Mar 3, 2019)

I find the Cineperc Timp to be stellar! It's got a ton of dynamic control, and has this awesome slappy growl at the top end of the dynamic range. Rolls are also very fun to play, and I find it layers really well with others, such as NI.


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## constaneum (Mar 3, 2019)

What about True Strike's Timpani and Spitifre Percussion's Timpani ?

Orchestral Tool's Timpani sounds great


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## hawpri (Mar 3, 2019)

constaneum said:


> What about True Strike's Timpani and Spitifre Percussion's Timpani ?
> 
> Orchestral Tool's Timpani sounds great


I'm still using True Strike 1 timpani. It's eq'd half to death and features some extra RR (neighbor borrowing) since it only has 2X RR, but it has held up well enough over the years. If I wanted another/new timpani, the first options that come to mind are Ftsamples, Modwheel, Orchestral Tools, and maybe Spitfire. Lots of options these days.


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## constaneum (Mar 3, 2019)

hawpri said:


> I'm still using True Strike 1 timpani. It's eq'd half to death and features some extra RR (neighbor borrowing) since it only has 2X RR, but it has held up well enough over the years. If I wanted another/new timpani, the first options that come to mind are Ftsamples, Modwheel, Orchestral Tools, and maybe Spitfire. Lots of options these days.



Yes. True Strike still holds up pretty well. There are certain sounds which i prefer True Strike than Spitfire Percussion, like the Glock as well as Tubular Bells. Spitfire Percussion's Timpani not too bad but there's pros and cons. But i think orchestra tool's timpani sounds awesome but at such price, no way man.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Mar 3, 2019)

Casiquire said:


> I don't see any love for VSL here, and they tend to be some of my favorite libraries. I don't have much experience with their timps, what do others think?



I have the Synchron Timpani. They sound very clean. Lots of smack, but less splash, if that makes sense. It's a firm, focused, pristine sound with clear tonality that will never muddy the mix, which is great. Quite versatile too.


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## nas (Mar 3, 2019)

I really like the timpani in Berlin Percussion by Orchestral tools. It's an expansion pack to the main library but I believe it's also sold as a separate library.

http://www.orchestraltools.com/libraries/bpc_exp_a.php


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## Casiquire (Mar 4, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I have the Synchron Timpani. They sound very clean. Lots of smack, but less splash, if that makes sense. It's a firm, focused, pristine sound with clear tonality that will never muddy the mix, which is great. Quite versatile too.



I had a feeling the Synchron ones would sound fantastic. I love the sound of the hall.

Great thread, I think percussion gets left out sometimes (I'm guilty of it myself) so this is useful!


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## SoNowWhat? (Mar 4, 2019)

NoamL said:


> No offense to the other developers but these comparisons are really driving home how high-quality the timp is in HZ01.
> 
> Out of all the options mentioned so far, I think I like the Berlin Series Timp (aka "Expansion A") the best. I still have a 50 EUR voucher from BOI1 so it would be just 75 EUR.


Was going to suggest Berlin. Unfortunately, I don't have it to tell you any more. @The Darris says good things about it (the whole perc set actually).


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## Consona (Mar 4, 2019)

I was recently looking for some timpani and found this: https://vis.versilstudios.com/timpani.html $15 for 4-6 RRs and 5 dyn layers, sounds really good.

I'm still not decided which to buy, but for the price this could be the winner.


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## OleJoergensen (Mar 4, 2019)

Here a little OT Berlin Percussion EXP A Timpani demo.
It is a mix of Close, Decca, Surround mics. I panned it a bit to the right. Original OT Timpani is recorded to the left.
The Demo is not perfect. Some of the patches has true damping, it needs some more work here.
- Soft mallets
- Medium mallets
- Hard mallets


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## OleJoergensen (Mar 4, 2019)

Im amazed how good the old QLSO timpany sounds! If I had checked that out, it was not nessecary to buy Berlin Timpani .
HZ timpani sounds good and dramatic as well but it is more a processed sound, I think.
One of the good features with Berlin Timpani is damping with singel strokes medium and hard mallets.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Mar 4, 2019)

Imo there is no such thing as the best timpani. But there are choices and tastes depending on the sound you aim for. Sometimes you like to have a more streamlined, clean timpani, and not with a lot of grit, and then there are exactly cases where you need a lot of ommpf and hall for the sound and composition you have. Still there exists also a my list of my favorites from most to least, I think with percussion it is important that the mics and room somehow captures the resonance depth of the instrument with the room, so here:

1. Cinesamples Percussion Timpani (soft, medium, hard mallets available which gives with the microphones a lot of "mixing" and "performance" options). Imo one of the best if not the best timpani. Sony Stage is imo for that stuff one of the best if not the best, big room resonance but with a nice adsr characteristic with a lot of oompf, splash and very mouldable from ambient to very dry.

2. Spitfire Timpani from the Burgess Percussion. I admit its a love and hate relation I have with that timpani, while I love the tone, I hate the inconsistencies with the stereo panorama, still the sound is massive if you like big hall with classic ambient decca tree recorded orchestra big boom sound. For specific epic stuff (I am not talking about epic modern music) but things from Wagner, Tschaikowsky all that romantic era big symphony stuff really a nice timpani. That thing has a lot of ambience, tail and classic symphony ommpf.

Now the thing which is ass and I think thats a big downside: The timpani is inconsistent and depending on the note you play the positioning is going crazy through the stereo panorama. (there are work arounds for that..though)

3. Eastwest Hollywood Percussion Timpani is a bit on the edge. While I think the tone is nice and can be compared to the CS (regarding the ambience), it lacks of that really loud bang and crack at FFF dynamics what CS has captures somehow really really good. But I like the quiter dyanmics quite a lot and the damped patch also.


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## Syneast (Mar 4, 2019)

I have ranked the timpanis I have, best to not as good:

1. True Strike
2. EWQLSO
3. Rhapsody Orchestral Percussion
4. Kontakt Factory Library
5. Berlin Orchestra Inspire

It's noteworthy that True Strike and EWQLSO are also the lightest on resources, if you compare size per mic.


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## kitekrazy (Mar 4, 2019)

Casiquire said:


> I don't see any love for VSL here, and they tend to be some of my favorite libraries. I don't have much experience with their timps, what do others think?



I have it. The standard version cost me like $25 as an upgrade from Percussion and More. I've got more than one library and not going to drive myself nuts over which one is the best. I just want ease of use.


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## NoamL (Mar 4, 2019)

Wait... is the timp in Berlin Inspire 1 the same one from Berlin Series Exp A? Because that's the one I've been having trouble working with!


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## Robo Rivard (Mar 4, 2019)

My favorite timpani is Modwheel's Timphonia. I'm not an orchestral guy, so the pure, close-mic approach of Timphonia suits me well. You also get a lot more "articulations" than any other timp librarie. I also own CinePerc, so my needs are pretty much covered.


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## Quasar (Mar 4, 2019)

+1 for Modwheel Timphonia. It's amazingly deep and you can have LOTS of off-the-wall sonic adventures with it. But it can also play a straight-up orchestral timpani extremely well.


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## NathanTiemeyer (Mar 4, 2019)

I absolutely love the HZ01 timpani. You play the rolls patch and it's like John Powell's sound in a box. Then you realize you're not John Powell  



Seriously, the main rolls patch sounds just like the intro here in this track, right out of the box ... I love this kind of sound.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 4, 2019)

For my purposes, I’ve never had to move past the EWQLSO, but I did purchase Rhapsody to have a complete Kontakt library as well. It’s not anything special, but it works well and was reasonably priced. That $48 deal is (was?) really great...I think I bought it for $99.


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## Mark Schmieder (Mar 4, 2019)

At the risk of repeating myself (another thread?), I'll quickly rank mine again:

Vienna Synchron Player — Adams Artist Alpha (20”, 23”, 26”, 29”, 32”)
Vienna Instruments — Adam
Spitfire Hans Zimmer Percussion (Kontakt)
Spitfire Percussion (Kontakt)
Sonuscore Symphony Series - Percussion (Kontakt)
BFD Orchestral — no rolls
Xsample Library (Kontakt)
UVI Orchestral Suite (Falcon)
Impact Soundworks Rhapsody Orchestral Percussion (Kontakt)
Orchestral Percussion (SampleTank)
Evolution Series: World Percussion: Europe (Kontakt)
Miroslav Philharmonik (SampleTank)
Wavesfactory W-Timpani (Kontakt)
Vir2 Elite Orchestral Percussion (Kontakt)
Quantum Leap Symphonic Orchestra (Play)
Quantum Leap Goliath (Play)
Note that I have the pro edition revamp of Hans Zimmer, which is way more user-friendly and full-featured than the previous edition (HZ01?), but I think I remember seeing almost the same actual sample content for most instruments. 

VSL is still my main choice for most projects as it blends so well and cuts through, but HZ usually does as well. I've only soloed the Sonuscore stuff as I've been super-busy since NI Komplete 12 arrived. My BFD Orchestral is up for sale, partly because of the comment "no rolls" that I qualify that ranking with. Great recording quality though, as is Xsample.

Almost everything below that on the list, I have consistently found is either too dark or muffled and/or doesn't cut through the mix -- especially the rolls. Probably the closest mics were still too far away to pick up the warmth of the head sound, thus getting mostly room reverb which quickly gets muddy and loses the distinctness of each hit, blurring the mix and losing the dynamics.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Mar 4, 2019)

NoamL said:


> Wait... is the timp in Berlin Inspire 1 the same one from Berlin Series Exp A? Because that's the one I've been having trouble working with!



I guess the Timps from Inspire 1 are "inspired" from Berlin Percs Exp A, indeed !
But as always with Inspire patches, it is a very light version. The Exp A is 6,2GB alone, according to the official website.

Here is a video from Sascha Knorr :


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Mar 5, 2019)

Just got Drum Fury, and I quite like the Timpanis in there as well !

Here is a little test I made (before my morning coffee, sorry about the playing).

1. Drum Fury "Hard Mallet" patch, raw
2. Same, with a bit of Precedence/Breeze2
3. Layered with the Timps from Ark 3 (Close, AB, Tree)

[AUDIOPLUS=https://www.vi-control.net/community/attachments/drum-fury-timps-mp3.18807/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/drum-fury-timps-mp3.18807/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## Phil Harmony (Mar 5, 2019)

Here is my list:

1. NI Symphony Series Percussion (best natural sound and playability)
2. True Strike 1 (wonderful roomy sound and tremolo, but too few RRs)
3. CinePerc (I use this for more powerfull and aggressive sound)

I also own HZ Timpani but I don't use this very often, somehow I just don't like the sound so much, maybe just a matter of personal taste?


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## Lassi Tani (Mar 5, 2019)

I own HOP, Berlin Percussion, ROP, and I'd rank them like this with my experiences with them:

1. Berlin Percussion Timpani: Sounds natural, even the hard hits sound very musical. Wonderful soft dynamics. Lots of articulations. Sometimes hard to make it cut through dense mix.
2. HOP Timpani: Immediate, big sound, easy to play. Loud hits lack just a bit of melodic content in the sound.
3. ROP Timpani: Quite small dynamic scale, doesn't go loud enough.


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## OleJoergensen (Mar 5, 2019)

whitewasteland said:


> I guess the Timps from Inspire 1 are "inspired" from Berlin Percs Exp A, indeed !
> But as always with Inspire patches, it is a very light version. The Exp A is 6,2GB alone, according to the official website.
> 
> Here is a video from Sascha Knorr :



That is an amazing demo!


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## Mark Schmieder (Mar 5, 2019)

I should clarify that I have been referring to NI Symphony Series Percussion as Sonuscore Symphony Series Percussion as it's the only way I'm likely to develop long-term memories regarding which vendor supplied each member of that series for NI (it's a different vendor for each section!).


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## dariusofwest (Mar 6, 2019)

sekkosiki said:


> I own HOP, Berlin Percussion, ROP, and I'd rank them like this with my experiences with them:
> 
> 1. Berlin Percussion Timpani: Sounds natural, even the hard hits sound very musical. Wonderful soft dynamics. Lots of articulations. Sometimes hard to make it cut through dense mix.
> 2. HOP Timpani: Immediate, big sound, easy to play. Loud hits lack just a bit of melodic content in the sound.
> 3. ROP Timpani: Quite small dynamic scale, doesn't go loud enough.



I have those same libs + QLSO and agree with you fully ^_^. In most projects, I tend to use Berlin's timpani most of the time (usually either the normal or hard mallets), haven't really tried the others yet.


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## sostenuto (Mar 6, 2019)

Gotta repeat some luv for Audiobro LADD Tympani(s) here. Lotsa good rolls too.


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## TrondB (Mar 6, 2019)

I LOVE the Spitfire BHCT timpani. Sounds great and works for everything.


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## fixxer49 (Mar 6, 2019)

On the face of it, timpani would _seem_ to be such a simple thing to get right (in the grand scheme of VI mockups), and yet is most often the very thing that gives a mockup away as being fake. I heard it ruin at least two otherwise good demos just today. 

why is that? (I have my opinions, but am interested in what others have to say about it.)


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## erica-grace (Mar 6, 2019)

fixxer49 said:


> On the face of it, timpani would _seem_ to be such a simple thing to get right (in the grand scheme of VI mockups), and yet is most often the very thing that gives a mockup away as being fake. I heard it ruin at least two otherwise good demos just today.
> 
> why is that?



I think it has a lot more to do with the arrangement and poor the use of the samples than it does with the recording process, and building of the patches.


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## fixxer49 (Mar 6, 2019)

erica-grace said:


> I think it has a lot more to do with the arrangement and poor the use of the samples than it does with the recording process, and building of the patches.


+1 agreed. is the unrealistic sound due to the fact that it's very rare that timpani are recorded directly in live orchestral sessions?


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## Mark Schmieder (Mar 6, 2019)

Too many acronyms on this forum, some of which are even applicable to multiple products.

I can guess that ROP might be Impact Soundworks Rhapsody Orchestral Percussion (except I think it has a different official name), but can't guess what HOP is -- maybe the percussion included with HALion? Or the latest Hollywood series from East/West (which I also see with variant titles)?

Also, I have most of Spitfire's stuff, by while at the office at least, I can't think what BHCT is. Sometimes I think this acronym stuff is a way of showing off.


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## fixxer49 (Mar 6, 2019)

Mark Schmieder said:


> I can't think what BHCT is


Bernard Hermann toolkit


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## Mark Schmieder (Mar 6, 2019)

Orchestral percussion are hard to get right in a sample library, in terms of something that is flexible for lots of contexts. More than almost anything else, it is important that they either be offered dry (as an option) with close miking, or only be used in a wet context where all of the other instruments were recorded in the same space.

At a concert, it is never hard to pick out any of these instruments and every minute detail of their articulations and timbre. That ought to be a clue right there, that this SHOULD also be a goal of any mock-up that we do.

I notice some developers use ribbon mics, close mics, different mic configurations, multi-mics with flexibility of mic selection, etc. In a dense atmospheric mix,a heavily ambient timpani set, chimes, etc., might benefit from mostly room mics, but in my experience this also often means using pre-recorded rolls vs. manual rolls. It all depends though.

Celesta is in the same family and also can suffer similar issues. But it's why I'll never be able to depend on just one, or even two, libraries to cover this territory. And as much as I may think I can pre-analyze my needs and make the right choice, in the end it's my ears that decide, even after a lot of tweaking of the one that "should" work in that context.

Don't forget also, that timpani come in many sizes and brands, and each sound different. Maybe not as different as some other instruments, but it all factors in. I would say it's less of a factor than vibraphone brand, marimba maker and materials, etc. Celesta also varies more as well. But at the very least, miking options are critical, as we are building up an ensemble from scratch rather than working with a live orchestra where the players are fine-tuning their resonance, release times, strike force, etc., in reaction to the room, the conductor, etc.


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## Mark Schmieder (Mar 6, 2019)

Bernard Hermann Toolkit with a Mystery "C" in between. I'll look it up when I'm not at work. I skipped that one, but wouldn't have recognized the acronym anyway. But I don't know where to draw the line when it comes to overuse of acronyms as the relative awareness of different products (and what are acceptable letter combinations to abbreviate) is ever-changing alongside the relative popularity of said products.


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## MartinH. (Mar 6, 2019)

Mark Schmieder said:


> Sometimes I think this acronym stuff is a way of showing off.



Only someone who doesn't know about https://www.spitfireaudio.com/shop/a-z/bernard-herrmann-composer-toolkit/ would say that. 
For real though, understanding what people are talking about here is a steeper learning curve than I ever expected it to be. It's almost like some kind of secret handshake thing 0_o


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## brek (Mar 6, 2019)

Mark Schmieder said:


> Too many acronyms on this forum, some of which are even applicable to multiple products.
> 
> I can guess that ROP might be Impact Soundworks Rhapsody Orchestral Percussion (except I think it has a different official name), but can't guess what HOP is -- maybe the percussion included with HALion? Or the latest Hollywood series from East/West (which I also see with variant titles)?
> 
> Also, I have most of Spitfire's stuff, by while at the office at least, I can't think what BHCT is. Sometimes I think this acronym stuff is a way of showing off.



https://vi-control.net/community/threads/glossary-of-vi-c-abbreviations.67167/

It's a little weird to get used to at first, but eventually you figure it out and makes these conversations so much easier.


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## Robo Rivard (Mar 6, 2019)

For people who own Superior Drummer 3, Toontrack has announced a SDX "Orchestral Percussion" expansion library for this spring... They mention that you need to open two instances to load all of the instruments, so it will be well covered. Seems like they will have four different timpanis. I guess they dropped all the chromatic stuff (tubular bells, xylophone, marimba, etc), to concentrate on single strokes.
https://www.toontrack.com/toontrack-20-years/


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## constaneum (Mar 6, 2019)

Mark Schmieder said:


> Orchestral percussion are hard to get right in a sample library, in terms of something that is flexible for lots of contexts. More than almost anything else, it is important that they either be offered dry (as an option) with close miking, or only be used in a wet context where all of the other instruments were recorded in the same space.
> 
> At a concert, it is never hard to pick out any of these instruments and every minute detail of their articulations and timbre. That ought to be a clue right there, that this SHOULD also be a goal of any mock-up that we do.
> 
> ...



that's why certain instruments i used spitfire percussion redux, certain from truestrike, certain from EWSO Gold. ahah


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## jaketanner (Mar 7, 2019)

I just resisted an old library...Miroslav MK I. Timpani sounds great, and has a lot of samples.


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## Paul Grymaud (Mar 7, 2019)

Certainly not that one


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Mar 7, 2019)

Paul Grymaud said:


> Certainly not that one



Thats how many of the fine people in the orchestra feel these days. I can relate to that.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 7, 2019)

Timpani go boom.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 7, 2019)

Having said that, I was really impressed when I heard Orchestral Tools' timps at a NAMM Show a few years ago.

But there are a lot of good ones. AudioBro LADD, the ancient (but still great) EWQLSO ones, VSL, there's nothing wrong with the Vir2 Elite Orchestral Percussion ones, I remember the old Sonic Implants Giga ones sounding nice... 

Really, are there any bad ones?


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## Kent (Mar 7, 2019)

NYC Composer said:


> For my purposes, I’ve never had to move past the EWQLSO, but I did purchase Rhapsody to have a complete Kontakt library as well. It’s not anything special, but it works well and was reasonably priced. That $48 deal is (was?) really great...I think I bought it for $99.


Rhapsody is very middle-of-the-road. It will never be wrong for your piece, but it might oftentimes be eclipsed by a better version of whatever instrument. It's still my #1 Kontakt-based percussion library I like to recommend to people looking for something with a bit of everything - for the price it's unbeatable, and it's obvious they put a lot of thought into things like usability. Plus, ISW is a great company, and I love supporting them.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 7, 2019)

Yes. I forgot to mention the incredible ease of use of Rhapsody. All the keyswitches are laid out logically and there are roll and mute keys for everything. Very bread and butter but logical, light, decent sounding and handy.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Mar 7, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Really, are there any bad ones?


I think the original post of the thread was about Eastwest Hollywood Percussion timpani being bad, so there's that. The Kontakt Factory library, unsurprisingly, is the pits. And although I haven't spent a lot of time yet with it, I'm not enamored with the Rhapsody timpani so far.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 7, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Really, are there any bad ones?


I’m sorry, only the finest timpani will do for my mediocre productions.

Regardless of the fact that timpani are generally buried beneath dozens of layers of my other questionable orchestral samples, I intend to spend thousands of dollars to unearth THE Timpani.



(edit-it’s amazing that I get any work done given all the bullshit I spout simply to amuse myself.)


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## Mark Schmieder (Mar 8, 2019)

Not surprising that Miroslav Philharmonik is good for Timpani -- I haven't had a chance to review it recently -- as my recent revisiting of that library for Tubular Bells was enlightening. Like Rhapsody from Impact Soundworks, it might not be the top choice for the Chromatic Percussion instruments vs. the harder-to-find stuff, but the quality of those instruments within a catch-all package certainly adds to the appeal for first-time buyers. I tend to go for single-instrument libraries for stuff that is used all the time in my music (which Timpani are).


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## constaneum (Mar 8, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Having said that, I was really impressed when I heard Orchestral Tools' timps at a NAMM Show a few years ago.
> 
> But there are a lot of good ones. AudioBro LADD, the ancient (but still great) EWQLSO ones, VSL, there's nothing wrong with the Vir2 Elite Orchestral Percussion ones, I remember the old Sonic Implants Giga ones sounding nice...
> 
> Really, are there any bad ones?



When i listen to the walkthrough of orchestral tool's timpani. I think it's one of the best sounding timpani libraries i've ever heard.


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## X-Bassist (Mar 8, 2019)

Does anyone own timpani on fire? Real calfskins do sound like they would punch through the mix better, and I like the layout (keyswitches, left hand, right hand). But it’s been years since the website has been updated and vol 2 was never released (although they claimed years ago it was recorded- at least partially- with vol 1)

http://www.ftsamples.com/products/timpani-on-fire-vol-1

I have Cineperc and a number of others mentioned in this thread, but this one has always been one I’ve looked at, waiting for a sale that has never come. I’m just wondering if my payment will go off into the either and never return. Has anyone ever dealt with these guys? Here is the “walkthrough video”:


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## Mark Schmieder (Mar 10, 2019)

Yep, even though Rhapsody tops my own list for quite a few things, its timpani are right smack in the middle of my rankings.

I have just confirmed that VSL uses Adams Timpani for their samples. My recollection is that it was their timpani that first put Adams on the map as a serious contender for Orchestral Percussion.

Not sure what Spitfire Percussion or Hans Zimmer uses. Copper being what it is, I suspect the variation between each manufactured drum is greater than that between the brands, of the reputable makers.


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## markleake (Mar 10, 2019)

I'm going to add to my original response to NoamL... specifically on NI Symphony Series Percussion. I got this library a little while ago, and so only started using it recently. I'm still exporing it, and haven't used the timpani much yet. (l really love the Spitfire Timpany, there's something I find magical about the tone, so I keep going for that as my first choice). But I used NI timpany in a more bombastic track yesterday for the first time, and it did very well.

I've noticed before that NI's timpani doesn't get to that huge smashing sound at the top dynamic, so I've held off using them. But they did very well yesterday. They have a very clean sound that mixed in very easily with the busy track, so no issues with muddyness. I was worried they would get lost, but they didn't, although in this case I didn't want them to stand out too much. The room they're recorded in sounds fantastic & the mics give a lot of flexibility to the tone (I have the full version). Some of the features like the damping is something I immediately fell in love with, the damping works and sounds great, even exposed.

Playing around with them, they sound very good at lower dynamics too. They have some nice soft sustaining rolls which I want to explore more in the future, similar to HZ percussion. I think if you already have another library you can layer to get the very top dynamics when you need it, then the NI percussion timpany should be on your short list.


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## constaneum (Mar 10, 2019)

markleake said:


> I'm going to add to my original response to NoamL... specifically on NI Symphony Series Percussion. I got this library a little while ago, and so only started using it recently. I'm still exporing it, and haven't used the timpani much yet. (l really love the Spitfire Timpany, there's something I find magical about the tone, so I keep going for that as my first choice). But I used NI timpany in a more bombastic track yesterday for the first time, and it did very well.
> 
> I've noticed before that NI's timpani doesn't get to that huge smashing sound at the top dynamic, so I've held off using them. But they did very well yesterday. They have a very clean sound that mixed in very easily with the busy track, so no issues with muddyness. I was worried they would get lost, but they didn't, although in this case I didn't want them to stand out too much. The room they're recorded in sounds fantastic & the mics give a lot of flexibility to the tone (I have the full version). Some of the features like the damping is something I immediately fell in love with, the damping works and sounds great, even exposed.
> 
> Playing around with them, they sound very good at lower dynamics too. They have some nice soft sustaining rolls which I want to explore more in the future, similar to HZ percussion. I think if you already have another library you can layer to get the very top dynamics when you need it, then the NI percussion timpany should be on your short list.



Spitfire Percussion' Timpani sounds great (more suitable for traditional orchestral). True Strike not bad as well (good for both traditional and cinematic style)


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## Mark Schmieder (Mar 17, 2019)

Thanks to the comment about the Timpani in the original Spitfire Percussion library, I thoroughly reviewed that library for three hours last night for the first time -- I doubt I had even tried it once previously, other than for Timpani, as it was part of a package deal and I just assumed due to its age that it would be shallow and narrow. Quite the opposite; this remains one of the broadest and deepest orchestral percussion libraries on the market, and is at or near the top of my list now for several instruments, including Anvils, and even Timpani (just barely below Hans Zimmer Pro).

Having spent 30 hours on Timpani the past week, with many iterations where I thought I was done (meaning "this is as good as it gets" vs. "this is perfect"), I finally have reached confident conclusions about what's out there and how best to make use of it in a variety of contexts.

After lots of work, and a huge ramp-up curve on finally getting to a high level of proficiency with Vienna Synchron Player, I now prefer it to VI Pro, and also am finding that the libraries are mostly better -- they just take more work initially.

By far my top Timpani choice now, for most contexts, is VSL Synchron Timpani, which uses the Adams Artist Series (20", 23", 26", 29", 32") and is similar in sound to what was recorded for VI Pro (my second choice even still), but of course is more versatile due to all the mic choices etc.

Much to my surprise, I concluded that it is best to go ahead and enable the algorithmic reverb within Synchron Player in certain contexts, when using many mics, as it does help the close mic (and sometimes the mid mic) -- especially when boosted in the mic mix (my preference) -- to sit better with the distance mics (the surround set, and the Decca Tree mics), for a better 3D image.

Also, EQ is sometimes useful within the mic editors. The reason for this philosophy, which goes against how I have worked previously (including with drum products like BFD and Superior), is that we will mostly be recording the mic mix (some of you may route each mic to your DAW; I'm too lazy), meaning that depending solely on down-mix reverb will give weird results due to how many mics are involved. The surround mics of course also need a bit of delay applied to them.

I ended up grafting my personal mic preset atop one of the factory presets, and after comparing way too many combinations to list here, have what I feel is an ideal setup that cuts through the mix at any volume level and keeps things articulate without every muddying up, whether doing fast rolls, octave jumps back and forth, standard single note phrases, or any other playing style.

One thing that surprised me is that we have to set our Dimension Control parameters (CC's and Key Switches) further ahead in time than I would like, or instead double-click all the slots one plans to use so that they all pre-load to memory. The usual 12 ticks or so ahead of notes played, is not enough for the slots to load their needed samples, so you can end up with silent audio until re-tracking. I'm not thrilled about this, and as I prefer to have workflow habits that are universal, I reluctantly decided to set the Dimension Control roughly one bar (depending on tempo) ahead of the relevant notes played.

I'm not sure how this is going to play out for stuff like Synchron Strings, where I'm more likely to need rapid changes of articulations vs. just going back and forth between single notes and rolls. I may end up deciding it's best to force-load the needed slots so they all load when the Synchron preset loads.

I am attaching my mixer preset separately from my instrument-level preset. I mostly changed the balance of the closer mics, and the EXP default (better at 100 than 127, to give you headroom for swells etc.). Although I tweaked a lot more than that originally, I backed out most other changes after finding that my most successful starting point was neither the default flat settings nor one of the closer non-surround setups but rather the surround-to-stereo downmix presets.

I'm calling the presets "Stage" as I think the resulting perspective of my mic blends probably come closest to that location (e.g. the conductor's podium) or maybe the Orchestra section of the audience. This is not a dry mix as I am using this in the context of soundtrack music, but I don't go for the Hollywood sound at all, so it's a bit closer to an old school approach to that.


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## Mark Schmieder (Mar 17, 2019)

I just threw a part at Synchron Timpani that has a reverse-dotted rhythm pattern with doubled notes that alternate with other dotted-rhythm doubled notes in an interval. I had to lower the note attacks so that everything was at 90 or below, which took away the energy and the force from the part. Otherwise, the notes are all detuned, almost enough that I might have to transpose up by a half step.

I seem to remember this being why I rejected Synchron Timpani the first time around, when I bought Synchron Percussion, as this is probably the piece that I threw at it first and then I likely gave up on it for a while as I still love the regular VSL Percussion's Timpani.

When someone else brought this up earlier, I mentioned how timpani can be tuned loose or tight, depending on a lot of factors (including temperature), but I notice the original VSL Timpani B isn't as tight as the original VSL Timpani B.

Perhaps the overall playing level range was different this time around, but that wouldn't explain why my part loses its impact when I drop the note attack levels to keep it more in tune.

If I manually play any parts, I get the same result. It doesn't pose a problem on rolls, which are pre-recorded anyway (one of the things I did today was replace all my manual rolls with preset rolls; a big improvement in realism). And also not on octave leaps or other intervals; just repeated notes.

I do not see any settings that might affect this; there is no humanize preset or tuning curve applied, for instance, and nothing wild on the attack envelope.

I'll return to this later and make a decision on whether Synchron Timpani is suitable for such parts. Not a problem if the original VSL percussion proves itself non-redundant in light of Synchron Percussion, but I don't like unsolved mysteries as they can bite you in mysterious ways later on when under a deadline crunch.


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## Mark Schmieder (Mar 17, 2019)

For thundering timpani rolls that have a "big room" sound that isn't muddy and retains intelligibility and articulateness, Hans Zimmer Pro rules (and not just for its timpani). Also much easier to dial in (in other words, I might be able to achieve the same results with Synchron Timpani, after hours of work).


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## Mark Schmieder (Mar 17, 2019)

After another hour of careful listening and comparisons, live playing, feeding recorded MIDI (previously live ), changing the dynamic range, etc., I think I now know what is going on with Synchron Timpani vs. Vienna Percussion Timpani.

The earlier library is drier, as one would expect, but somewhat unexpectedly, there isn't much "body" to the sound. That is, you hear the strike and the head, but not the copper drum. Nor do you hear the mallet itself, so the strikes sound similar and vary mostly by the head resonance.

Even if I turn off all but the close mic, Synchron Timpani sounds nothing like it, including when leaving the note attacks higher and living with the sharp pitch that results. You hear less of the head, and more of the copper drum and especially the details of the mallet strikes.

They both have their place, and though the older library may sound a bit more dynamic, or from a player's perspective, when soloed, I'm finding that the dynamics of Synchron Timpani blend better, and remain dynamic at lower note attack levels, so I think I'm likely to prefer it at this point to the older library on just about everything (that I don't use Hans Zimmer Pro Percussion for).


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## Daniel James (Mar 17, 2019)

Timpani on Fire is incredible! I lost my copy when I moved out to LA and can't seem to download it again....but the fact I miss it is a good sign!

-DJ


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## Mark Schmieder (Mar 17, 2019)

For this particular piece that was so challenging compared to the others (an obscure Human League instrumental B-side done at the time of the Heaven 17 split, switched from synths to orchestra!), I'm back to Vienna Percussion's Timpani as a final decision, for a variety of reasons, but the exercise was enlightening.

Once I re-did the part with the lower attack levels, and with EXP at 100 vs. 127, the original library exhibited more natural dynamics and beater details than before, and as the head has more tonal definition in the older library and this particular piece needs that more than the body, it ended up being the better match in this case.

Having said that, there do seem to be some specific insurmountable flaws in Synchron Timpani, that won't affect every project but should be noted. I have to go to the mono close mic on its own, to avoid pitch issues in the higher register, but this may be the nature of the instrument in terms of what happens to the sound when further away or when throwing even mild reverb on the close mic. Even the stereo mid mics negatively affected the upper register tones of the timpani, which I'm using a lot in this piece.

In many ways, this reminds me of the inconsistency of the otherwise-outstanding Spitfire Percussion Timpani, which is still #4 on my list right after the two VSL libraries and Hans Zimmer Pro.

I think I'm pretty well-covered by these four libraries overall. Some of the ones that keep getting talked about here have piqued my interest, but I doubt I'd buy them just for Timpani as one of my four favourites will do the job on any project so far. I wouldn't expect to have just one go-to library for Timpani anyway, so I'm not really disappointed by any of my discoveries of Achilles' Heels for each product.

Of course, I still haven't thoroughly explored the one from Sonuscore that NI packages as their Symphonic Series Percussion. I played it live for kicks (I mean real-time vs. legacy MIDI tracks for rendering), but haven't thrown a challenge at it yet. I'm still not quite comfortable with the Symphony Series interface overall; it seems a bit limited and also hard to control in detail, along with not seeing a clear overview of settings (kind of like Play in that regard).


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## Mark Schmieder (Mar 19, 2019)

I remain a bit confused over the surround-to-stereo down-mix in Synchron Percussion, but got home from work too late last night to launch it and try once again with my ears alone to tell whether anything is different starting with that mix basis, for those of us who have the standard edition.

I'd like to resolve this by end of month, to decide whether to upgrade while the sale is on. With Synchron Power Drums, I decided I didn't need the full edition as that's more about blending three simultaneous drum sets at different stage positions (I won't be using it that way). Synchron Strings makes clear that the downmixes are available to standard users, but Synchron percussion doesn't say either way, and as the mixes are available even when the samples aren't (a big change from Vienna Instruments), I have to depend on my ears.

Anyway, what triggered my re-examination of this, is that I remember at end of session the other night, noticing no signal levels on the surround mics, for my mix settings that are based on the surround downmixes, and yet I recall hearing a difference if I muted those mics.


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## Mike Fox (Mar 19, 2019)

Here's a track I did using the timpani from Truse Strike 1. I really like how it sits in the mix.


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## Mark Schmieder (Mar 20, 2019)

I have confirmed that all presets (including Surround presets) load in Synchron Player even though I don't own the full edition; nor is there any warning message. If I turn off the surround mics, I get silence (and no signal on those mics either).

As one can make one's own complex presets with aux routing and all, I don't think there's any "special sauce" in the factory presets that route the surround mics to the mains; nor would that make any sense as the mains are a Decca Tree and one wouldn't want to corrupt that with additional mics.

I guess I was just tired the other night when I thought I detected a difference with the down-mix preset as my basis. So anyone who loads my previously posted presets, bear in mind that I obviously don't know what they sound like when the surround mic samples are actually available and producing signal.

As for Mike's demo with True Strike 1, I don't detect much pitch definition so don't know if that's how that library works, but in the context of that mix where it is serving mostly a rhythmic purpose to add energy and impact to the string phrasing, and overall atmosphere, it sounds really good and has the perfect "sound" combined with spatial placement and dimensional/imaging sense.


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## X-Bassist (Mar 20, 2019)

Daniel James said:


> Timpani on Fire is incredible! I lost my copy when I moved out to LA and can't seem to download it again....but the fact I miss it is a good sign!
> 
> -DJ



I'm seriously considering buying, even though the website has not changed in half a decade. Just sounds so cool for Timpani!


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## Consona (Mar 20, 2019)

Aren't Timpani on Fire played with sticks? I think Vol 2 is mallets but will they ever release it?


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## Mark Schmieder (Jun 4, 2019)

I have been finding that Timpani are far more sensitive to context than most other orchestral Percussion, in terms of mic mix and ambience, so that things cut through but sound like they belong in the same space. This is one of the reasons why the Synchron Timpani eventually ended up bumping others off my projects (even Hans Zimmer, except for a couple of exceptions), but there are still a few articulations where I find the original VSL Timpani a bit easier to work with (so far).


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## mojamusic (Jun 4, 2019)

ESX24 stock Orchestral Percussion/Timpani sits well in the mix


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## Prockamanisc (Jun 12, 2020)

Mark Schmieder said:


> After lots of work, and a huge ramp-up curve on finally getting to a high level of proficiency with Vienna Synchron Player, I now prefer it to VI Pro, and also am finding that the libraries are mostly better -- they just take more work initially.


I like the timbre of the Synchron Timpani, but for some reason, it plays almost inaudibly quiet when I load it up. Is there something dumb that I'm missing?


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## Ashermusic (Jun 12, 2020)

True Strike 1 and Hollywood Orchestral Percussion are fine for mr, although the OT one sounds impressive. When I get commissioned to write a Concerto For Kettle Drums, I may pony up for it.


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## Ben (Jun 12, 2020)

Prockamanisc said:


> I like the timbre of the Synchron Timpani, but for some reason, it plays almost inaudibly quiet when I load it up. Is there something dumb that I'm missing?


The Synchron Series instruments are volume matched to each other. If you use it together with other libraries you may want to adjust the master volume of the Synchron Player or set it to 127 and use VEPs/your DAWs mixer for volume matching. Also make sure that you have velocity crossfade disabled if you want to use key velocity.


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## jaketanner (Jun 12, 2020)

@Ben I know you can't say much, but are winds and brass in the works for true Synchron series? Or will they remain the same, just Synchronized? Thanks. 

Also, is there an impulse of the Vienna Synchron stage within the Synchron Player? Or is that just for MIR?


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## Mark Schmieder (Jun 12, 2020)

Yep, it's as Ben said. I forget how I addressed the volume issue in my custom mix settings, which I can attach if anyone is interested (I use Timpani a LOT, in different contexts, so I actually made three separate stage depth mix settings for Timpani). Even in pop/rock, Timpani might be my only orchestral instrument. My Mom played Timpani, so I probably have a built-in bias for it.  

I'm spending 12-16 hours a day right now in the job hunt and in self-training, so I've kind of fallen off on forum follow-up, but luckily it's easy to catch up later due the forum's excellent alert system. For stuff like this though, Ben is the best source and is extremely responsive on this forum.


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