# How to write big chords like this:



## nuyo (Jul 9, 2021)

How to write big chords like this:





I can clearly hear horns but no trombones or a lot of low brass. Also choir and strings.
If there are big brass chords with the whole brass section, the only instruments that play in the f range are the horns.
And you ofthen hear people say that lower dynamics sound more cinemtic, but does that apply to this kind of music aswell ?
And should I use 12 Horn patches or 6 Horn patches ? & Trombones, 3 Trombones or bigger ?
Do you think they orchestrated full brasss chords or just the horns and low brass playing the root notes.
I hope someone can help me out.


----------



## Great Zed (Jul 10, 2021)

Very hard to tell, but sounds to me like a couple of fhorn sections in the higher register, trombone sections in the mid-low, and a bass trombone doubling tuba in the lower registers. That's how I'd write it, anyway. Could be whoever wrote it just used the same fhorn patch for the entire chord progression. The problem with that is the number of players you'd need, plus Fhorn can sound a bit anemic in the lower registers, so using bones gives it weight.


----------



## Karl Feuerstake (Jul 10, 2021)

In the first video (I can't access the second), at 2:30 I hear Horns playing a melodic fragment beginning on a chord tone, High Strings on ostinato, Low Strings on bass line with Low Brass in unison (but mixed very quiet), and Choir filling out the rest of the harmony. At 2:35 mid/Tenor Trombones give an answering melodic fragment that dovetails into the next chord. At 2:45 another High String part starts that is on the harmony.

I think you might want 6 or 12 Horns, but they're not playing brassy (that or they are but are in such a huge room they don't sound shrill). The Tenor Trombones might be only 3, and Low Brass might be something like Cinesamples Monster Low? Idk.


----------



## nuyo (Jul 11, 2021)

nuyo said:


> I'm aware of his channel but he hasn't gone trough one of his tracks that are similar to my examples. Something like "Brothers in Arms" or "Marathon".





Great Zed said:


> Very hard to tell, but sounds to me like a couple of fhorn sections in the higher register, trombone sections in the mid-low, and a bass trombone doubling tuba in the lower registers. That's how I'd write it, anyway. Could be whoever wrote it just used the same fhorn patch for the entire chord progression. The problem with that is the number of players you'd need, plus Fhorn can sound a bit anemic in the lower registers, so using bones gives it weight.


Sounds reasonable, but I can't hear trombones. I can only hear bass doubled by low brass and the melodies played by the horns.


----------



## jcrosby (Jul 11, 2021)

The biggest clue to the orchestration happens at 1:31. Like a lot of trailer tracks the brass arrangements isn't so much about being realistic as much as (perhaps) going with whatever they felt works best for the track. 

Anyway if what happens at 1:31 is any clue (which sounds to be the case), the bulk of the harmony seems to be spread across a number of different instruments and the brass is mostly focused around horns and low brass. (My vote for low brass is Trailer Brass... Could be Monster Low Brass though which would certainly do the job...)


----------



## cet34f (Jul 11, 2021)

nuyo said:


> Sounds reasonable, but I can't hear trombones. I can only hear bass doubled by low brass and the melodies played by the horns.


In the live concert, there were horns, trombones and a tuba, so I guess that's how you create this effect in real life. 

In the other hand, the OST version might be achieved through the magic of post production.


----------



## nuyo (Jul 11, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> The biggest clue to the orchestration happens at 1:31. Like a lot of trailer tracks the brass arrangements isn't so much about being realistic as much as (perhaps) going with whatever they felt works best for the track.
> 
> Anyway if what happens at 1:31 is any clue (which sounds to be the case), the bulk of the harmony seems to be spread across a number of different instruments and the brass is mostly focused around horns and low brass. (My vote for low brass is Trailer Brass... Could be Monster Low Brass though which would certainly do the job...)


It's definitly CineBrass Monster Low. I would say the Horns are from CineBrass aswell. The Zimmer example is recorded live.


----------



## jcrosby (Jul 11, 2021)

nuyo said:


> The Zimmer example is recorded live.


Ah ok. The 2nd track actually shows up as "Video Unavailable" for me so I had no idea what it is.. All I can see is the 2WEI track so I figured it was another trailer reference.

In that case for sure, HZ's would be live, and the orchestration would reflect that of course...


----------



## cet34f (Jul 11, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> Ah ok. The 2nd track actually shows up as "Video Unavailable" for me so I had no idea what it is.. All I can see is the 2WEI track so I figured it was another trailer reference.
> 
> In that case for sure, HZ's would be live, and the orchestration would reflect that of course...


The second video is "What Are You Going to Do When You Are Not Saving the World?", aka the MoS theme.

In the OST, when the brass start playing at 2:39, they sound full but clean at the same time, and the timbre is dominated by horns, so I guess that's what OP wants to ask.

I believe there are trombones in the OST (they are definitely in the live concert), but I was having hard time hearing them too. (However, in the later passage, the trombones double the horns and become apparent.)

I then tried harder and heard the trombones one octave below the horns (not doubling). They are most apparent when playing the triplets. And there is a tuba supporting the orchestra in the lowest register.

I would like if someone can confirm what I heard.


----------



## nuyo (Jul 15, 2021)

cet34f said:


> The second video is "What Are You Going to Do When You Are Not Saving the World?", aka the MoS theme.
> 
> In the OST, when the brass start playing at 2:39, they sound full but clean at the same time, and the timbre is dominated by horns, so I guess that's what OP wants to ask.
> 
> ...


You are talking about the last part where the Brass is playing shorts ? There was a big Sub Synth or Guitar playing during the part that comes before that. Maybe the didn't use Trombones during that time ?


----------



## cet34f (Jul 15, 2021)

nuyo said:


> You are talking about the last part where the Brass is playing shorts ? There was a big Sub Synth or Guitar playing during the part that comes before that. Maybe the didn't use Trombones during that time ?


Hi, nuyo, when I opened your MoS OST video, it started at 2:40, so I assumed that's the passage you want to discuss. My comments are for the 2:40 to 3:27 passage.

What I meant to say is that I hear trombones in the 2:40 to 3:27 passage, so I agree with Great Zed: building a big brass chord with horns only is anemic. Hans did use trombones here.


----------



## nuyo (Jul 15, 2021)

cet34f said:


> Hi, nuyo, when I opened your MoS OST video, it started at 2:40, so I assumed that's the passage you want to discuss. My comments are for the 2:40 to 3:27 passage.
> 
> What I meant to say is that I hear trombones in the 2:40 to 3:27 passage, so I agree with Great Zed: building a big brass chord with horns only is anemic. Hans did use trombones here.


Hey,
But what about the 2wei example ? Hans is orchestrating more "traditional" but the 2wei example sounds like just Horns with Low Root Note Brass and Bass.


----------



## Mr Greg G (Jul 15, 2021)

nuyo said:


> Hans is orchestrating more "traditional" but the 2wei example sounds like just Horns with Low Root Note Brass and Bass.


Exactly and that's why Hans track sounds way better: because of its orchestration, arrangement and mixing. It does not lose focus on what's important. That would be the brass melody and the percussions. The rest, mainly strings and bass, never interferes contrary to the 1st track where the melody is not that clear and can sound muddy.

Anyway, I'm not sure what you find so complicated to reproduce. Maybe you could try to do an 8-16 bars mockup and we could help and guide you through it?


----------



## nuyo (Jul 15, 2021)

Mr Pringles said:


> Exactly and that's why Hans track sounds way better: because of its orchestration, arrangement and mixing. It does not lose focus on what's important. That would be the brass melody and the percussions. The rest, mainly strings and bass, never interferes contrary to the 1st track where the melody is not that clear and can sound muddy.
> 
> Anyway, I'm not sure what you find so complicated to reproduce. Maybe you could try to do an 8-16 bars mockup and we could help and guide you through it?


I did a quick mock up that is similar to the 2wei example. I added MIDIs and Stems so you guys can analyse it. I didn't add any fx because it usually doesn't make things better if they aren't arranged right. Let me know what I can improve. ^^


----------



## Mr Greg G (Jul 15, 2021)

Ok I think it was a good start. It didn't sound anemic. To me the issues are:
1/ HUGE lack of reverb for the higher register especially horns. Your track is supposed to sound huge, think huge, huge reverb 2-3s tails.
2/ Not enough dynamics curves, it sounds a bit boring or dry (not talking about reverb here), especially for the brass and the NI Bass. Make the NI Bass behave like a low brass section.
3/ Too much bass. The synth bass is a good addition but you have NI Bass + Monter LOW, + Trombones blasting. That's too much. Please choose and tame the others.
4/ No EQ especially on the horns. Too much bass + mids. Make room for your 1st role ie the horns melody.
5/ Monster LOW Brass is way too Brassy. They sound like an orchestral fart. Change the dyn layer and turn up the volume if you can't hear them anymore.

Here is a quick sketch of what I just talked about. It's not perfect but eh, you've got to work too  The challenge will be to find a good reverb. I just fired up a random reverb here (First tried VintageVerb, it didn't work so I switched to Reverence) but you should achieve a better result if you spend more than 5min like I did.


----------



## nuyo (Jul 15, 2021)

Mr Pringles said:


> Ok I think it was a good start. It didn't sound anemic. To me the issues are:
> 1/ HUGE lack of reverb for the higher register especially horns. Your track is supposed to sound huge, think huge, huge reverb 2-3s tails.
> 2/ Not enough dynamics curves, it sounds a bit boring or dry (not talking about reverb here), especially for the brass and the NI Bass. Make the NI Bass behave like a low brass section.
> 3/ Too much bass. The synth bass is a good addition but you have NI Bass + Monter LOW, + Trombones blasting. That's too much. Please choose and tame the others.
> ...


Good Points 

So what you are saying is that the main problems are to much energy under 400 kh and the lack of Reverb ? And would you agree that the 2wei example doesn't contain trombones or low brass but mostly guitar or synth basses ?


----------



## Mr Greg G (Jul 15, 2021)

Well it's not the energy but more the traffic in the low register, there are too many cars on the same road. You have to choose which is the main car and hold back the others. Also, hombre, don't use Stereo on your bass. I had to use Imager in my mp3 example and put everything to mono under 100Hz. Look at the waveform of your NI Bass track. Should be mono, not something that wanders left and right when it wants to.

Well all my points are "main problems" because you definitely should EQ your tracks. Not like a butcher though.

I can hear trombones in the 1st video playing in harmony and I think some are also playing in unison with the horns. The low notes are also in harmony and not following the bass which makes the track muddy IMO. I would more focus on your Zimmer example which has depth.


----------



## Mr Greg G (Jul 15, 2021)

@nuyo did you get a chance to listen to my rendered mp3 of your stems?


----------



## nuyo (Jul 15, 2021)

Mr Pringles said:


> @nuyo did you get a chance to listen to my rendered mp3 of your stems?


Yes I did, It sounds much closer to the Hans Zimmer Example than my version but it's definitely far away from what I want it to sound like. And I really can't tell if the solution is something within the mixing and sound design process or the arrangement and sample libraries.


----------



## Mr Greg G (Jul 16, 2021)

It sounds like only you have the answer then!


----------



## nuyo (Jul 16, 2021)

Mr Pringles said:


> It sounds like only you have the answer then!


I wish I had.


----------



## jcrosby (Jul 17, 2021)

nuyo said:


> I did a quick mock up that is similar to the 2wei example. I added MIDIs and Stems so you guys can analyse it. I didn't add any fx because it usually doesn't make things better if they aren't arranged right. Let me know what I can improve. ^^





nuyo said:


> Hey,
> But what about the 2wei example ? Hans is orchestrating more "traditional" but the 2wei example sounds like just Horns with Low Root Note Brass and Bass.


I had a quick play with this earlier. I'm not going to pretend that my shoddy ear-transcribed harmony isn't a mess. That said there's a whole brass line you missed in the original. It's a bit louder in mine but you'll get the point...

Brass-wise? I'm 95% certain it's mostly Metropolis Ark 1. As in - the majority of the arrangement... the strings sound pretty damn identical to what I whipped up with MA1's 8va high strings. The brass also has a very similar _round_ attack if you stack short or long marcatos with longs in the same patch. (A trick I use often to make things sound somewhat natural with minimal automation.)

Arrangement-wise I used 3 sections. Horns a9 for the main horn line, and horns a3 stacked with bass trombones for the counter melody in the lower register.... Your strings also needed some spacing out. For example I dropped the lower notes in your high strings 3rds down an octave. (Again, I won't even pretend the harmony's right...This is all I can make out by ear currently....)

Basically the previous question you responded to was about the _x-factor_ of what makes this sound the way it does?

Arrangement, levels, and imaging are 90% of what you hear in my wav below. There's some processing to add a small amount of sparkle and clear traffic between 300/400, some light widening and compression, but it's not nearly as processed as you might think. Using the same library for just about everything certainly doesn't hurt in terms of minimizing the need to over-process.... Compression and EQ settings are more or less under 3 dB each....

TL;DR - The arrangement and leveling do the vast majority of the work... MA1 doesn't hurt either... The sound OOTB pretty much just works with this, they just needed some level adjustments...










JCrosby 2WEI Apprentice Backend.wav


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com


----------



## nuyo (Jul 17, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> I had a quick play with this earlier. I'm not going to pretend that my shoddy ear-transcribed harmony isn't a mess. That said there's a whole brass line you missed in the original. It's a bit louder in mine but you'll get the point...
> 
> Brass-wise? I'm 95% certain it's mostly Metropolis Ark 1. As in - the majority of the arrangement... the strings sound pretty damn identical to what I whipped up with MA1's 8va high strings. The brass also has a very similar _round_ attack if you stack short or long marcatos with longs in the same patch. (A trick I use often to make things sound somewhat natural with minimal automation.)
> 
> ...


Your arrangement and orchestration sounds 100% right. Can you send the midi file? I would like to have a look at it.

I have Metropolis Ark 1 so I will revisit the brass section in it.
I think the main difference between your version and the original is that they have much more sound design bass instruments and their Stereo Image is much wider. That's their thing, I never heard that somewhere else.


----------



## jcrosby (Jul 17, 2021)

nuyo said:


> Your arrangement and orchestration sounds 100% right. Can you send the midi file? I would like to have a look at it.
> 
> I have Metropolis Ark 1 so I will revisit the brass section in it.
> I think the main difference between your version and the original is that they have much more sound design bass instruments and their Stereo Image is much wider. That's their thing, I never heard that somewhere else.


Sure, and thanks mate. I'm not home now but can upload them later... Yeah, just a rough mix. Could have made the mix a lot wider but just scrapped this out quickly...

For the brass try stacking short marctos with legatos for solo lines, and sustains for polyphonic lines. If the short marcatos feel too noticeable try the longs. I basically just experiment until I find a combo I like.... It's 'trick I started using a couple years ago that I now try with any new brass library. (Doesn't work with everything... With MA1 and JXL it works brilliantly)....

One other thing you can try - if you have high strings in the same register (like the spiccato ostinato and high suatains) is to swap the L/R on one of the two. In an arrangement like this where the sustains are the backbone of the harmony I swap the L/R on the ostinato. This should make it appear on the right and sound separated from the high strings on the left...

You can increase the sense of separation with a little widening or panning the highs and lows apart a little in Kontakt, then swapping the ostinato with an insert effect.... (Panning's more ideal, but a good widening plugin won't cancel in mono, just make sure you know the imaging plugin you use doesn't cancel de-correlation. I use the width on Izotope's Relay plugin or the Ozone imager... Both are totally mono compatible.)

I also saw the other poster mention mono-ing low end. I do this as well. You can use a simple mid-side EQ to roll out the sides below 100-125 if you don't have something like Ozone's imager.

I'll upload MIDI this evening... Cheers and have fun experimenting with some of those Ark tricks..


----------



## nuyo (Jul 18, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> I'll upload MIDI this evening... Cheers and have fun experimenting with some of those Ark tricks..



Amazing. Thank you.


----------



## jcrosby (Jul 18, 2021)

Here's a link to the midi below. Included bounces of the busses as well but didn't include the percussion MIDI since I didn't try re-create it. The audio files of them are there though to use...
If you want to try and recreate the percussion there are a couple alt mixes on Position's site including a percussion only mix... 









The New Apprentice - Position Music


The New Apprentice




www.positionmusic.com





The BPM is 130 FYI, and you'll see there's very little CC automation... This is where the stacked patches become useful, they let get away with the brass sounding somewhat natural even if CC 1's mostly mostly maxed, because you control the marcato volume with velocity. It also gives you more control over the timbre since you can use low velocities with high CC 1 values for a timbre that's basically just sustain, or maracato attacks with sustained tails using high velocities.. Anyway if the velocities seem kind of _weird_ that's why...


About the bass... Yeah I just used a kontakt patch from Devastator as a placeholder for the most part. Nothing fancy... That said there's one defining thing about the sub in their track. It's pretty heavily modulated sounding but I'm pretty sure they've done this with reverb actually. It's a technique used pretty heavily in EDM... It creates a chorusing effect, but more importantly it helps the sub separate from the mix and can even make it sound 'bigger'. (You can use this trick to make anything separate from the mix actually).

Assuming you have VH Room I pasted a screenshot of my settings below. I used the default settings, just set the algorithm to Large Room and used the slider settings below...

Bounced out a new version with the sub treated that way:









JCrosby 2WEI Apprentice Backend V2.wav


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com





*MIDI Mockup and Bus Stems:*









JCrosby 2WEI New Apprentice Backend.zip


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com





*Valhalla Room Sub Reverb:*


----------



## Franky7103 (Jul 18, 2021)

You got really good responses, but if you want to know exactly what they do, you can send them an email. I did this with a few composers and they've all replied.


----------



## nuyo (Jul 22, 2021)

@jcrosby

What about Mid Side EQing ? The Horns sound very wide and clean in the original. That could be because of some mid low cutting in the mid signal ?

And thank you for sharing the Positon Music site. I had a listen to a few different songs. And some of the Stems sound like they where messing a lot with the mid side channels. Sometimes it sounds almost like it was a mistake. ^^ This could be a hint.


----------



## onnomusic (Jul 23, 2021)

I have the stems for one of their tracks, the strings and brass is not too special mixing wise I'd say, just very well done. They seem to get their signature sound more from other layers. The drums sound is phatter than almost any other composer out there, and their processing etc on bass (very stereo, and a few different layers, seemingly ran through amps etc) and other layers like resampled brass etc is where their productions really come to life imho. If you like their sound I'd advise watching the studio times from JXL as their approach is quite similar (and I think they were assistants there for a while?)


----------



## nuyo (Jul 23, 2021)

onnomusic said:


> I have the stems for one of their tracks, the strings and brass is not too special mixing wise I'd say, just very well done. They seem to get their signature sound more from other layers. The drums sound is phatter than almost any other composer out there, and their processing etc on bass (very stereo, and a few different layers, seemingly ran through amps etc) and other layers like resampled brass etc is where their productions really come to life imho. If you like their sound I'd advise watching the studio times from JXL as their approach is quite similar (and I think they were assistants there for a while?)



Run Baby Run ?
Check out the individual Stems with an Imager. Every Stem is Stereorized to the max. And thats why I think there is some mid side EQing going on.


----------



## jcrosby (Jul 23, 2021)

nuyo said:


> @jcrosby
> 
> What about Mid Side EQing ? The Horns sound very wide and clean in the original. That could be because of some mid low cutting in the mid signal ?
> 
> And thank you for sharing the Positon Music site. I had a listen to a few different songs. And some of the Stems sound like they where messing a lot with the mid side channels. Sometimes it sounds almost like it was a mistake. ^^ This could be a hint.


It's possible for sure... I tend to pan them apart, then widen a little if needed. Panning's also a lot easier than MS EQ though because all of the sections are already broken apart and its easier to manipulate the image more precisely just by adjusting the position of each section... The one thing I do is I mono my low end below 120. You can either roll off the sides or use a multiband imager like Ozone's...

I also don't think they sound wider than strings/brass in other trailer tracks. I have some stem references from one of the libraries I write for and they're just as wide.... Synths and everything else probably have a lot more processing and/or MS EQ on them though since that's pretty common... Strings/brass can be made to sound wider just by panning them apart though...

It's basically all about making space in the middle of the mix for the hits and slams which really need to drive the track.

Someone posted a video last year where they broke down one of their tracks and they talk about doing the same thing. Pretty sure it was this one... (Funny enough I'm in Logic and have always used the direction mixer for panning as well since it pans the entire image.... )


----------



## nuyo (Jun 24, 2022)

I just wanted to let you guys know that the 2WEI example was indeed written with only Horns (3,4,5 Voices in the Horn Section).
So all the notes are Horns except the Bass Notes that are played by Bass Trombones and Tubas.
The Zimmer example might be a realistic Orchestration because of it's live recording.
But the 2WEI example was made using an "unrealistic" amount of Horns Players.


----------

