# How does one compose in the style of bloodborne/dark souls



## OrangeCloud (Jun 22, 2021)

im about to quit this thing, havent been able to transcribe anything nor am i a sheet reader so transcribing wont help me, i dont understand how to handle dissonance to make it sound good, and i cant make something scary that lasts above 2 minutes (pretty bad timeline for orchestral music like bloodborne/dark souls)

this is the stuff i want to imitate:







(quite some examples lol)
not instrumentation, but composition is what i need help in, how the hell does someone figure out how to compose like this? outside of being a professional japanese composer and having been a musician for 25 years. i just cant understand how to do something as good. another general problem i have is that i cant continue songs after getting a good principal idea.

if anyone can help with this, im thankful.


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## NateVH (Jun 22, 2021)

Hey I’ll make a few posts detailing the different tracks as well as I can. Feel free to ask any questions. I will also state this is just what I’m hearing and my opinions. Take this with a grain of salt. Everyone hears things differently and everyone has different opinions on what makes a good horror or suspense track. The first Bloodborne track I hear possibly high string tone clusters which often move slightly to neighboring notes to give a feeling of movement. This is typical in horror and suspense. It could also be polychords which are just two chords played on top of each other. Try playing a C major and an F# major chord at the same time. It could also be both polychords and tone clusters. The melody at the beginning and end is in C harmonic minor but what gives it that haunting feel (IMO) is that the line ends on the 2nd scale degree and doesn’t resolve. It’s also doubled an octave below. By what I’m not entirely sure but I’d guess maybe a cello, possibly muted. This octave doubling has a very specific, open effect. The second part of the piece is very rhythmically driven also using tone clusters (strings) and polychords (choir and brass). The strings are also using glissandi with the tone clusters which sounds very intense. The low strings are playing very rhythmic passages, driving the piece forward. I wouldn’t quite call it ostinati though I think it could be argued. The brass and choir are mostly stabs consisting of polychords from what I can tell. Then it ends how it began. It follows an ABA form which is fairly common, main section followed by something different then repeating the first section usually with a variation (in this case slight variation with the melody). The key to this style is balancing tension with tonality. In this example there is a lot of tension with very little release. Getting that balance right is key and will take practice. Try writing a melody and playing with how much you resolve chords. And see how that affects the tone of the melody. Start with all basic diatonic chords and then change some to suspended chords. Then go atonal. Mix up how many of each you have and experiment. Some libraries I might check out that may be good for this style are the Albion 3 and 4 (all are good but these two in particular), Symphobia, Horns from the a deep, angular or fragile strings evolutions. These are all very focused libraries. They all sound good but other than symphobia they are fairly one note (sorry, I had to). But those are just the ones I’ve seen or used that I may personally use for that style of writing.


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## Evans (Jun 23, 2021)

What is your background / level of knowledge today? 

It's quite difficult (practically impossible) to go from not reading sheet music to composing like someone who gets paid for it for their primary source of income without you taking many smaller steps in between.


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## Trash Panda (Jun 23, 2021)

Here is a helpful insight into the process from GDC.



Here is the first piece of music I transcribed by ear. It took me over a month just for that part. Then came the fun of trying to reproduce it via MIDI mock-up with a library more suited to modern orchestral arrangements. I’ve meant to revisit it now that I’m much more competent at this, but haven’t gotten around to it. MIDI file is attached to the OP if that helps.






 Bloodborne OST - Father Gascoigne, The Hunter


Hi all, I am new to the orchestral mock up world, but very familiar with rock/metal arranging/recording/mixing, and currently working through recreating some of my favorite orchestral songs. I spent the past week transcribing the first half of this boss fight song and plan on doing the latter...




vi-control.net


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## Trash Panda (Jun 23, 2021)

And here are a bunch of videos from Alex Moukala that break down a lot of good information when it comes to attempting the Bloodborne style.


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## Locks (Jun 23, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Here is a helpful insight into the process from GDC.


Wow! Thanks for the posts. An absolute wealth of information here. Look forward to watching tomorrow.


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## marclawsonmusic (Jun 23, 2021)

I think you have already identified what you want to work on - the composition process.

The way to keep music interesting for long periods of time is to _develop _your idea using variation. There are many methods to do this - transposition, inversion, retrograde, diminuition, fragmentation, reharmonization, etc, etc. 

I got a lot of good advice from Norman Ludwin on this topic. He has a book you might want to check out - Composer's Handbook. https://www.musicnewapproach.com/composers-handbook

Don't give up!!!


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## OrangeCloud (Jun 23, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> And here are a bunch of videos from Alex Moukala that break down a lot of good information when it comes to attempting the Bloodborne style.



ive seen all his videos and he really doesnt really explain how to properly use atonality and dissonance, he just does it, good videos but i cannot really understand them if he is explaining how to compose like that. also, yeah i have seen the gdc video, gave me some ideas, but really nothing that actually helped totally.


Evans said:


> What is your background / level of knowledge today?
> 
> It's quite difficult (practically impossible) to go from not reading sheet music to composing like someone who gets paid for it for their primary source of income without you taking many smaller steps in between.


been composing for 5 years, and yeah thats pretty much a sign i wont get good nowhere soon, but i still try i guess. id say a strong intermediate, i can do a good track once every blue moon after 100 bad and uninspired songs. i am able to read sheet music i just dont really enjoy doing so.


marclawsonmusic said:


> I think you have already identified what you want to work on - the composition process.
> 
> The way to keep music interesting for long periods of time is to _develop _your idea using variation. There are many methods to do this - transposition, inversion, retrograde, diminuition, fragmentation, reharmonization, etc, etc.
> 
> ...


not really a book reader, never got better by reading them (also an artist and andrew loomis books helped me nothing being quite honest) but yeah, i cant do any of those without making them sound generic or just uninteresting, i cannot play piano and sadly have gotten an habit of eye composing with piano roll. ill check the book out but i dont hope it will help me much.

also surprised by the amount of messages, thanks.

Edit: also i'd say another problem i have against me is not being very money full, since i live in a third world country, i am unable to buy most useful libraries so yeah


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## OrangeCloud (Jun 23, 2021)

NateVH said:


> Hey I’ll make a few posts detailing the different tracks as well as I can. Feel free to ask any questions. I will also state this is just what I’m hearing and my opinions. Take this with a grain of salt. Everyone hears things differently and everyone has different opinions on what makes a good horror or suspense track. The first Bloodborne track I hear possibly high string tone clusters which often move slightly to neighboring notes to give a feeling of movement. This is typical in horror and suspense. It could also be polychords which are just two chords played on top of each other. Try playing a C major and an F# major chord at the same time. It could also be both polychords and tone clusters. The melody at the beginning and end is in C harmonic minor but what gives it that haunting feel (IMO) is that the line ends on the 2nd scale degree and doesn’t resolve. It’s also doubled an octave below. By what I’m not entirely sure but I’d guess maybe a cello, possibly muted. This octave doubling has a very specific, open effect. The second part of the piece is very rhythmically driven also using tone clusters (strings) and polychords (choir and brass). The strings are also using glissandi with the tone clusters which sounds very intense. The low strings are playing very rhythmic passages, driving the piece forward. I wouldn’t quite call it ostinati though I think it could be argued. The brass and choir are mostly stabs consisting of polychords from what I can tell. Then it ends how it began. It follows an ABA form which is fairly common, main section followed by something different then repeating the first section usually with a variation (in this case slight variation with the melody). The key to this style is balancing tension with tonality. In this example there is a lot of tension with very little release. Getting that balance right is key and will take practice. Try writing a melody and playing with how much you resolve chords. And see how that affects the tone of the melody. Start with all basic diatonic chords and then change some to suspended chords. Then go atonal. Mix up how many of each you have and experiment. Some libraries I might check out that may be good for this style are the Albion 3 and 4 (all are good but these two in particular), Symphobia, Horns from the a deep, angular or fragile strings evolutions. These are all very focused libraries. They all sound good but other than symphobia they are fairly one note (sorry, I had to). But those are just the ones I’ve seen or used that I may personally use for that style of writing.


ah well, yeah i can hear what is in the song, the techniques and such, what i am not able to do is to execute them properly, using the dissonance and tonality and etc. nice breakdown though.


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## NateVH (Jun 23, 2021)

OrangeCloud said:


> ah well, yeah i can hear what is in the song, the techniques and such, what i am not able to do is to execute them properly, using the dissonance and tonality and etc. nice breakdown though.


Thanks! Can you elaborate? When you say you can’t execute them properly what difficulties are you having? Maybe post a piece that you struggled with it so we can maybe give more direct examples and feedback?


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## OrangeCloud (Jun 23, 2021)

NateVH said:


> Thanks! Can you elaborate? When you say you can’t execute them properly what difficulties are you having? Maybe post a piece that you struggled with it so we can maybe give more direct examples and feedback?


well what i mean is, i dont know how to properly implement the techniques on a track and make them sound good and "adequate", nor to make a track sound scary. ill post two examples and both have the same problem: they are too short (they may seem longer because they loop) but i cant get any ideas to extend them further, and although they sound good, not as good as any other bloodborne inspired tracks out there 




(first one kinda sekiro inspired)


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## pmcrockett (Jun 28, 2021)

In Uragi Enkei, there's a lot less motion than in the Bloodborne/Dark Souls stuff. The track, in the body of it, is a very wall-of-sound, sustains in all instruments kind of affair, whereas all of the tracks you gave as references have more activity. Not faster moving harmonies in them, necessarily, but more rhythmic and melodic interest, and more interplay among the various instruments. Chernobog does a lot better in this regard and generally works well in the genre.

As far as practicing longer structure goes, I'd suggest breaking down one of your reference tracks into timed sections, and then write your own piece that follows those timings. That removes the decision-making about where and how long each section needs to be and allows you to focus on what to put in those sections. Try to take your inspiration from the musical material too -- figure out what main element in each section catches your attention, and make that the basis for your own writing.

There is also, unfortunately, the issue of samples. I hear quite a bit of stuff in the reference tracks that would be best executed with aleatoric/horror libraries such as 8Dio CAGE -- string grinds and shrieks, for example -- and if you don't have access to these sorts of sounds, it does limit your palette somewhat.


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## NateVH (Jun 29, 2021)

OrangeCloud said:


> well what i mean is, i dont know how to properly implement the techniques on a track and make them sound good and "adequate", nor to make a track sound scary. ill post two examples and both have the same problem: they are too short (they may seem longer because they loop) but i cant get any ideas to extend them further, and although they sound good, not as good as any other bloodborne inspired tracks out there
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think you're a lot closer than you give yourself credit for but I would say probably both tracks are begging for variation. Again I'll preface the following with this is just my opinion and the way I would approach it.

In Uragi Enkei before it repeats try dropping out a bunch of instruments and maybe look into a very lightly orchestrated section with maybe the instrument you started with getting doubled by low strings spicatto, sans high strings or maybe very quite clusters or harmonics, and finally add an ethnic wind instrument like a tin whistle, xiao, or fue to handle a "B section" melody. Maybe slowly build back into the second section by slowing bringing in the brass pulsing on the beat?

I really like Chernobog. The only recommendations I really have would be to vary the rhythmic pattern in the high string stabs and to add a B section somewhere. I might take it as is, add a B section to the end, and then slap one more A section after that. You'd have an AABA structure which is pretty common. 

I think the main point I want to make is you have a good grasp on the tension but to have tension there has to be a release somewhere in order to build it back up otherwise its just a wall of sound, which in video games can be okay when used as boss music or something.


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## OrangeCloud (Jul 2, 2021)

NateVH said:


> I think you're a lot closer than you give yourself credit for but I would say probably both tracks are begging for variation. Again I'll preface the following with this is just my opinion and the way I would approach it.
> 
> In Uragi Enkei before it repeats try dropping out a bunch of instruments and maybe look into a very lightly orchestrated section with maybe the instrument you started with getting doubled by low strings spicatto, sans high strings or maybe very quite clusters or harmonics, and finally add an ethnic wind instrument like a tin whistle, xiao, or fue to handle a "B section" melody. Maybe slowly build back into the second section by slowing bringing in the brass pulsing on the beat?
> 
> ...


yeah i dont really know about structures, thats another problem i have, but thanks i will have what you said in mind


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## OrangeCloud (Jul 2, 2021)

pmcrockett said:


> In Uragi Enkei, there's a lot less motion than in the Bloodborne/Dark Souls stuff. The track, in the body of it, is a very wall-of-sound, sustains in all instruments kind of affair, whereas all of the tracks you gave as references have more activity. Not faster moving harmonies in them, necessarily, but more rhythmic and melodic interest, and more interplay among the various instruments. Chernobog does a lot better in this regard and generally works well in the genre.
> 
> As far as practicing longer structure goes, I'd suggest breaking down one of your reference tracks into timed sections, and then write your own piece that follows those timings. That removes the decision-making about where and how long each section needs to be and allows you to focus on what to put in those sections. Try to take your inspiration from the musical material too -- figure out what main element in each section catches your attention, and make that the basis for your own writing.
> 
> There is also, unfortunately, the issue of samples. I hear quite a bit of stuff in the reference tracks that would be best executed with aleatoric/horror libraries such as 8Dio CAGE -- string grinds and shrieks, for example -- and if you don't have access to these sorts of sounds, it does limit your palette somewhat.


i dont get what you mean, im not good at transcribing i dont get what you mean with timed sections. and yeah the samples problem is a big one i guess, i dont really care much anymore, i had a game idea that was kinda horror and i wanted to do tracks like those but i gave it up now so no much reason to keep trying.


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## Kery Michael (Jul 2, 2021)

So it sounds like you’ve plateaued. Is that a word? … You’ve found yourself on a plateau.

Your tracks have a good ominous tone to them. But they just get really repetitive. To make the next level of composing is going to take work and effort. If you want to get to that next level it’s going to take time and effort. Whether or not you want to do that is up to you.

But I can tell you that the composers of those tracks (which are top notch and pro) wrote hours and hours of garbage and then hours and hours of mediocre tracks before they got to the level that they are. They did not fall out of the womb writing music like that. Takes time and effort.


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## Trash Panda (Jul 2, 2021)

OrangeCloud said:


> i dont get what you mean, im not good at transcribing i dont get what you mean with timed sections. and yeah the samples problem is a big one i guess, i dont really care much anymore, i had a game idea that was kinda horror and i wanted to do tracks like those but i gave it up now so no much reason to keep trying.


Not sure if you saw it in my first post in this thread, but I shared the MIDI file from my Bloodborne mock-up of The Hunter. It’s probably not note for note perfect, but should serve as a solid base if you need a transcription to study.






Bloodborne OST - Father Gascoigne, The Hunter


Hi all, I am new to the orchestral mock up world, but very familiar with rock/metal arranging/recording/mixing, and currently working through recreating some of my favorite orchestral songs. I spent the past week transcribing the first half of this boss fight song and plan on doing the latter...




vi-control.net


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## pmcrockett (Jul 3, 2021)

OrangeCloud said:


> i dont get what you mean, im not good at transcribing i dont get what you mean with timed sections. and yeah the samples problem is a big one i guess, i dont really care much anymore, i had a game idea that was kinda horror and i wanted to do tracks like those but i gave it up now so no much reason to keep trying.


By timed sections, I mean figuring out the clock times where the piece starts sounding different -- sort of like identifying where the verse, chorus, and bridge happen in a pop song -- and fitting your own composition to those clock times.

For example, in the first Bloodborne example, Moon Presence, there's an intro with low strings and choir until 0:34, then you get low string pulses and brass noises until 1:05, where a choir is added to the strings/brass. The strings gradually get higher until 1:49, and then the string pulses drop out and are replaced rapid string runs until 1:59. At 1:59, the material from 0:00 comes back with the gradual addition of high strings until the end at 2:39.

So if you were to use the above paragraph as a basis for your own composition, you'd just follow the outline but fill in your own material that fits the times and descriptions.


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## OrangeCloud (Jul 20, 2021)

okay i wasnt able to learn this and my project has failed, thanks for anyone who tried to help.


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