# How do you solve the limited space on a laptop problem



## FrozenIcicle (Sep 22, 2021)

Looking to finally upgrade my Macpro2010 tower to a Macbookpro Mx1 and the SSD prices are ridiculously as we all know.

If I went with 4TB internal, that's still can fit maybe 1-6 libraries on it (without everyday files/logic sessions)

How do you guys solve this? Surely we're not plugging into an external SSD box or transferring the libraries we want when we go portable?


----------



## Trevor Meier (Sep 23, 2021)

I keep most of my libs on an internal 4TB SSD. The lesser-used go on an external SSD. I’ve considered trimming mics etc but so far I’ve found it easier just to be more selective with what’s in my template. I am tempted by the 8TB internal though… a ridiculously overpriced and very handy upgrade


----------



## proxima (Sep 23, 2021)

People use externals if they want the bigger libraries. They're incredibly small and light and cheap. Check out Christian's rig. And Guy's.

If you don't mind the look, it's easy enough to even tape them to the lid with a short cable. Relative to the other aspects of a portable rig (keyboard, good headphones), it's a relatively small issue. And since they're SSDs, they're so much smaller and more durable than portable hard drives.


----------



## el-bo (Sep 23, 2021)

FrozenIcicle said:


> Looking to finally upgrade my Macpro2010 tower to a Macbookpro Mx1 and the SSD prices are ridiculously as we all know.
> 
> If I went with 4TB internal, that's still can fit maybe 1-6 libraries on it (without everyday files/logic sessions)
> 
> How do you guys solve this? Surely we're not plugging into an external SSD box or transferring the libraries we want when we go portable?


Perhaps wait until the MX1 one or M2 appear, before thinking about it. They could come in at a much larger price, pushing your budget even further away from the already crazy prices of Apple's internal storage. 

Are you really against using external storage?


----------



## FrozenIcicle (Sep 23, 2021)

el-bo said:


> Perhaps wait until the MX1 one or M2 appear, before thinking about it. They could come in at a much larger price, pushing your budget even further away from the already crazy prices of Apple's internal storage.
> 
> Are you really against using external storage?


It's not that I'm against it, I just cant work out how you prioritise what goes on the external vs internal. Sometimes templates change


----------



## el-bo (Sep 23, 2021)

FrozenIcicle said:


> It's not that I'm against it, I just cant work out how you prioritise what goes on the external vs internal. Sometimes templates change


Gotcha! Have you thought about a more modular approach to templates? It's an idea that some people have suggested in various threads, in these forums. And Dan Keen has just released a video in which he explains how he's using this (and other things) in a new workflow. 

Not sure how much of this applies if you're not a Logic-user or which parts can be translated into other DAW-flows, but it still might be of interest. Perhaps you'll find that keeping a 100% core of stuff you'll always use on a smaller capacity internal drive, and use external space to hod anything else that you might be inclined to swap in-out, as required or inspired:


----------



## proxima (Sep 24, 2021)

FrozenIcicle said:


> It's not that I'm against it, I just cant work out how you prioritise what goes on the external vs internal. Sometimes templates change


Since you're on Mac, you can use symlinks to have all your libraries appear in one place regardless of where they are physically.


----------



## NULL_Bits (Sep 24, 2021)

I use SSD external drives. They're really convenient because I have multiple computers so it's nice being able to plug and play. For more long term stuff and mass storage I have a NAS with like 20TB and I have it connected to my internal network so all my devices can access it.


----------



## juliandoe (Sep 24, 2021)

If the "internal" hard drive is the same that runs your system I highly suggest you not use it as your sample library hard drive.
The system drive, no matter the architecture of the processor, works a lot in the background, even if you're not using it. Running the operating system, the applications, the updates, the notifications, and everything that requires storage or virtual memory. 
Having the sample libraries on the system drive, no matter the size means to slow and/or reduce the computer performance. Also, you have to consider that the sample libraries are data that every time you use gets read, and rewritten. This means that when you're using an X GB library you're subtracting that amount of GB from your system that has to "find" another spot for the background applications.

Having a bigger hard drive is not a solution, because the computer has to find the data necessary for its functionality in a bigger space.

The best solution is to have an internal hard drive big enough to contain OS + applications + 20% of free space. That's why you still have options to buy a new Mac with 256GB. Everything else should be located on external hard drives.

I personally have this configuration: System Drive + Time Machine, Projects Drive + 2 Backup, Library Drive + 2 Backup, Documents + 2 Backup. Every drive is 1TB. I'm still on spinning disks cause I still can't afford SSDs but I'm slowly upgrading my system. The concept does not change.

I hope this is helpful


----------



## jbuhler (Sep 24, 2021)

el-bo said:


> Gotcha! Have you thought about a more modular approach to templates? It's an idea that some people have suggested in various threads, in these forums. And Dan Keen has just released a video in which he explains how he's using this (and other things) in a new workflow.
> 
> Not sure how much of this applies if you're not a Logic-user or which parts can be translated into other DAW-flows, but it still might be of interest. Perhaps you'll find that keeping a 100% core of stuff you'll always use on a smaller capacity internal drive, and use external space to hod anything else that you might be inclined to swap in-out, as required or inspired:



I have long used a version of the workflow DK describes here, and generally prefer it to full templates. 

That said I find Logic’s preset system to be squirrelly, especially with track stack presets, so you need to know that going in. I have issues especially with the presets forgetting the names and colors of the tracks, and so needing to redo that work whenever I add the preset. Just as with templates I find I often need to rebuild the presets for new versions of Logic. 

The iCloud trick DK documents is really nifty and if I was moving between computers I’d definitely use it.


----------



## kitekrazy (Sep 24, 2021)

proxima said:


> People use externals if they want the bigger libraries. They're incredibly small and light and cheap. Check out Christian's rig. And Guy's.
> 
> If you don't mind the look, it's easy enough to even tape them to the lid with a short cable. Relative to the other aspects of a portable rig (keyboard, good headphones), it's a relatively small issue. And since they're SSDs, they're so much smaller and more durable than portable hard drives.


I'm thinking of doing this and I have a desktop. All of my Sata ports are used up. The best bargains on SSD are often 1TB or 500GB. I really can't afford to replace my 2TB HDDs with SSD. Another option is getting a Sata controller and duct tape SSDs in the case.


----------



## rgames (Sep 24, 2021)

You could go with a PC. My 15" Dell is almost three years old and has three NVMe slots. I'm sure the newer ones do as well.

The argument against it at the time was "it's bigger." But a smaller main machine with a bunch of external drives is a lot more cumbersome. I never understood that argument...

rgames


----------



## SupremeFist (Sep 24, 2021)

juliandoe said:


> If the "internal" hard drive is the same that runs your system I highly suggest you not use it as your sample library hard drive.


This was for sure the rule in the days of spinning rust but I'm not sure it applies to SSDs. At least I have found that my giant VSL piano libraries run somewhat more smoothly from my Mac's very fast internal drive. Everything else lives happily on external Samsung T5s.


----------



## el-bo (Sep 24, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I have long used a version of the workflow DK describes here, and generally prefer it to full templates.
> 
> That said I find Logic’s preset system to be squirrelly, especially with track stack presets, so you need to know that going in. I have issues especially with the presets forgetting the names and colors of the tracks, and so needing to redo that work whenever I add the preset. Just as with templates I find I often need to rebuild the presets for new versions of Logic.
> 
> The iCloud trick DK documents is really nifty and if I was moving between computers I’d definitely use it.


Yeah, I thought it was you who had discussed having such issues. I did think to comment below the video, but seeing as I had no real direct experience of the issues (By virtue of not yet having tried the system), it wasn't something I felt comfortable to commenting on. Also, haven't other members said they don't experience the same issues?


----------



## MegaPixel (Sep 24, 2021)

For computer (not lappy)
4 Internal drives, 2tb x 4, 4tb x 1 (2x nvme & 2 sata ssd)

But you can get nice speeds from external SSDs, so shouldn't be too much of a problem depending on what your doing.

For backup and portable
Instead of doing raid 2 (stripe), if raid array fails you got to go through hell and back just to get the 1 working drive working again. So I bought 2 of the below and use SyncBackFree to copy what I need to them end of each week, all automated and if one dies, I just buy another (2 year warrant only though, so probably not a WD Black / WD Red Pro SMR in box).


----------



## jbuhler (Sep 24, 2021)

el-bo said:


> Yeah, I thought it was you who had discussed having such issues. I did think to comment below the video, but seeing as I had no real direct experience of the issues (By virtue of not yet having tried the system), it wasn't something I felt comfortable to commenting on. Also, haven't other members said they don't experience the same issues?


I’ve tried making new presets with the current version of Logic and continue to have issues. What I haven’t yet tried is trashing all my existing presets to see if that will fix the issue. I also continue to have intermittent issues with projects spontaneously losing articulation set assignments.


----------



## MegaPixel (Sep 24, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I’ve tried making new presets with the current version of Logic and continue to have issues. What I haven’t yet tried is trashing all my existing presets to see if that will fix the issue. I also continue to have intermittent issues with projects spontaneously losing articulation set assignments.


I've not tried Logic but with FL, BitWig & StudioOne I've not has issues. The main issue has always been when I format the machine (I use it for more than just audio). Takes days to get the audio libraries etc setup again, and often loading up an old song they have issue finding kontakt or some other problem with NI and with other VSTs not having their presets setup as they were previously.

Because I do this about once every 3 to 5 months, I bounce the tracks down and consolodate or output a wav & mp3 just encase.

It's like every re-install of windows, it's always something different that goes wrong with it, then there's setting up all the VSTs, NI etc and trying to keep the drive letters the same (can often involves a hardware change).


----------



## Tronam (Sep 24, 2021)

The appeal of the internal SSD is how much faster it is and the larger the capacity, the quicker they tend to be. The 1TB drive in my M1 MBP reads at over 2.5GB/s. External SSDs in that speed range tend to be significantly more expensive and run a bit hotter, often throttling over time. This can vary a bit depending on drive manufacturer and enclosure. If I end up getting an M1X system, I'll likely opt for a 2 or 4TB SSD this time.


----------



## Wedge (Sep 24, 2021)

MegaPixel said:


> I've not tried Logic but with FL, BitWig & StudioOne I've not has issues. The main issue has always been when I format the machine (I use it for more than just audio). Takes days to get the audio libraries etc setup again, and often loading up an old song they have issue finding kontakt or some other problem with NI and with other VSTs not having their presets setup as they were previously.
> 
> Because I do this about once every 3 to 5 months, I bounce the tracks down and consolodate or output a wav & mp3 just encase.
> 
> It's like every re-install of windows, it's always something different that goes wrong with it, then there's setting up all the VSTs, NI etc and trying to keep the drive letters the same (can often involves a hardware change).


It won't help performance wise but I partition my laptop drive so windows treats it as two separate drives. C: for windows and D: for sample libraries, tracks, ect. I also make a system image of windows with S1 and my synths setup, pretty much a clean setup and use that instead of reformatting. That way my actual audio and synths whether I'm using the image or doing an actual format will still be there and I'm up and running a lot faster. I also have two backups of everything.


----------



## MegaPixel (Sep 24, 2021)

Def doesn't do 2.5GB/s that's Gigabit LAn territory or SATA port mobo plugged in NVME raid 1 area.

SSD over SATA is at best 6GB/PS, It will never get there... Well not with my
Samsung Evo 1TB NVME (boot)
Serberant 1TB NVME (just for lols)
4TB EVO SATA SSD Samung
1TB EVO as above
8TB external x 2 mirrors for certain folders spanned over all internal drives)

If your doing a internal HD via SATA transfer to a different port stack (2 usually ontop of eachother on mobos, if you dont want IRQ or any chance of bandwidtch conflict, put em on separate stacks/ports. Then do a file copy of your kontakt folder.... Its bad because of the HD. But even from SSD to SSD on SATA is not that good, 400 to 600mb is best I've seen. I get about 200 to 300 on USB, but if you do a lot of small files it can drop the KB range (node_modules)....

If you want that kind of speed raid 1 a bunch of nvme's on those expensive PCIE cards or get a synology raid 1 it and gigabit lan card for it and your pc. Then you go the best of the best... And instead of using HDs in the Synology use SSDs and load up the NVME bays for caching with 2 x 1TB Synology cache drives. (WD / Syn)


----------



## FrozenIcicle (Sep 24, 2021)

juliandoe said:


> If the "internal" hard drive is the same that runs your system I highly suggest you not use it as your sample library hard drive.
> The system drive, no matter the architecture of the processor, works a lot in the background, even if you're not using it. Running the operating system, the applications, the updates, the notifications, and everything that requires storage or virtual memory.
> Having the sample libraries on the system drive, no matter the size means to slow and/or reduce the computer performance. Also, you have to consider that the sample libraries are data that every time you use gets read, and rewritten. This means that when you're using an X GB library you're subtracting that amount of GB from your system that has to "find" another spot for the background applications.
> 
> ...


Hmm so if I bought a new m1x with 2tb internal SSD, you're saying it's better not to have a core template using that 2tb internal SSD but to use it on a "template" external SSD?



proxima said:


> Since you're on Mac, you can use symlinks to have all your libraries appear in one place regardless of where they are physically.


Oh haven't heard of this. So I would have the Symlink folder pointing to an external SSD which I would plug in?


----------



## juliandoe (Sep 25, 2021)

FrozenIcicle said:


> Hmm so if I bought a new m1x with 2tb internal SSD, you're saying it's better not to have a core template using that 2tb internal SSD but to use it on a "template" external SSD?


Yes. You can have all your libraries on a dedicated external hard drive and use your internal 2TB 
for the system, applications, synths, VSTs, files, and documents that you don't use too much. 
If you're using the Logic Library, Spitfire, or Orchestral Tools plugins they have their own method to relocate the libraries. The Kontakt libraries must be reactivated via Native Access.
When you make the template use your external hard drive as a source.


----------



## proxima (Sep 25, 2021)

FrozenIcicle said:


> Oh haven't heard of this. So I would have the Symlink folder pointing to an external SSD which I would plug in?


It's related to the linking that Dan Keen did in his video for Logic preferences, but you'd apply it to samples. Here's an example. Suppose your external drive was /Volumes/External and you put samples on your internal drive in /Users/YourUser/Samples/. Suppose then you decided you wanted Native Instruments libraries to be on the external drive, but all Spitfire libraries to be on the internal drive.

You would install the Spitfire libraries onto /Users/YourUser/Samples/Spitfire and they'd operate as you'd expect.

Then you'd create a symlink from /Users/YourUser/Samples/NativeInstruments and point it to a new folder on /Volumes/External/NativeInstruments. If you dropped a file into /Users/YourUser/Samples/NativeInstruments/, it would appear to all applications like it's there, but really it's in /Volumes/External/NativeInstruments/. Then install your NI libraries, pointing to /Users/YourUser/Samples/NativeInstruments/. NI will think they're there, but the files themselves won't be.

Supposing down the line you want to swap, and have NI locally and Spitfire externally. You can move the Spitfire files externally and create the symlink, and you can move the NI files and remove its symlink. All your applications would continue to think everything is in /Users/YourUser/Samples, but where the storage is would vary.


----------



## FrozenIcicle (Sep 25, 2021)

thanks guys, i've learnt a lot :D


----------



## MusiquedeReve (Sep 25, 2021)

I use a 2TB Samsung T7 - I do not notice any lag when loading libraries from it


----------



## thevisi0nary (Sep 25, 2021)

Whatever you end up buying, one thing that has always held firmly true for me is that is I have never regretted getting more storage than I need, but I have ALWAYS regretted getting a smaller drive to save money, because I always outgrow them eventually. It's why I've ended up with several 1tb or smaller sata SSDs in my desktop. When I eventually get the laptop I want and it's my main device, there is now no practical way all that space can translate into something portable and practical. The only option is to get a multi bay thing which is not at all portable.

When I do upgrade I will get something like this and never have to consider the problem again. - https://www.microcenter.com/product...e-gen-30x4-3d-nand-internal-solid-state-drive


----------



## Bman70 (Sep 25, 2021)

I'm not sure if I solved it, I'm too busy writing music on my 500GB / 16GB laptop. Usually with Omnisphere, Kontakt Komplete 12U.. Spitfire Abbey Road ONE.. Ozone 9 Advanced.. tons of 3rd party Kontakt stuff.. I'm sure I could find technical stuff to stress about if I want to.

I do use an external 1TB SSD, which is great since I can move it between desktop and laptop and share projects / libraries.


----------



## Rossy (Sep 25, 2021)

FrozenIcicle said:


> Looking to finally upgrade my Macpro2010 tower to a Macbookpro Mx1 and the SSD prices are ridiculously as we all know.
> 
> If I went with 4TB internal, that's still can fit maybe 1-6 libraries on it (without everyday files/logic sessions)
> 
> How do you guys solve this? Surely we're not plugging into an external SSD box or transferring the libraries we want when we go portable?


I'm currently using a Samsung T5 1 TB connected to my thunderbolt connection on my Lenovo p50 and I honestly don't see much of a problem in loading and speed. I do have 32G of ram and I have loaded BBCSO Core without any issues. I mostly only use it for sketching when I am in the living room.


----------



## FrozenIcicle (Sep 25, 2021)

Rossy said:


> I'm currently using a Samsung T5 1 TB connected to my thunderbolt connection on my Lenovo p50 and I honestly don't see much of a problem in loading and speed. I do have 32G of ram and I have loaded BBCSO Core without any issues. I mostly only use it for sketching when I am in the living room.





Bman70 said:


> I'm not sure if I solved it, I'm too busy writing music on my 500GB / 16GB laptop. Usually with Omnisphere, Kontakt Komplete 12U.. Spitfire Abbey Road ONE.. Ozone 9 Advanced.. tons of 3rd party Kontakt stuff.. I'm sure I could find technical stuff to stress about if I want to.
> 
> I do use an external 1TB SSD, which is great since I can move it between desktop and laptop and share projects / libraries.


This opens up another dilemma of mine... use the cash to buy the new mac pro (Hopefully M chip replaces intel) and have a mac air for sketching?

OR buy a MBP and make it my main composing powerful machine and use my old macpro2010 tower as a coffee stand


----------



## Tronam (Sep 25, 2021)

thevisi0nary said:


> Whatever you end up buying, one thing that has always held firmly true for me is that is I have never regretted getting more storage than I need, but I have ALWAYS regretted getting a smaller drive to save money, because I always outgrow them eventually. It's why I've ended up with several 1tb or smaller sata SSDs in my desktop.


Yeah, it's why I've ended up with 3 progressively larger (but not big enough) SSDs and 3 or 4 various other HDs, none with enough capacity for all of my data resulting in it being spread out across all of them, which also makes backups more complicated and confusing at times. Photographers know this phenomenon well, leading to an accumulation of progressively more expensive tripods and camera bags when they could've just invested more up front in something they could grow into. I will no longer scrimp on storage when I buy a new computer.


----------

