# Did somebody ask for a detailed, intimate harp library?



## gregjazz (Oct 14, 2014)

It's out now!!

Head over to the release thread here for more details:

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42387

----------------

Every once in a while I see threads here on VI-Control asking about extensive harp sample libraries. It seems like even the few harp libraries out there are geared for a roomy orchestral harp sound--which definitely has its purpose, but there isn’t much in the way of sampled harps that work for an up-front, exposed harp track.

I’ve decided to take up this challenge as one of my latest projects.

We’ve sampled a full concert harp with a ton of detail--release samples, re-pluck samples (that’s where you pluck a string that’s already ringing), and much more. Capturing noises like these are critical to realism because little finger buzzes and things like that really contrast the mellow, warm sustain of the harp. That’s also why we included an adjustable amount of pre-roll to the samples, since any fingernail noises that happen before the main transient of the samples adds another dimension of realism.

We also sampled some extras, such as harmonics. Everything was recorded with separate close and room stereo mic signals, which you can mix together individually. There are 4 dynamics and up to 7x round-robin samples.

Furthermore, it has two play modes, depending on your playability preferences: harp and keyboard. The harp mode lets the strings ring past releasing the keys, while the keyboard mode mirrors the response of a piano.

Here’s an audio demo, so you can hear how the library is turning out:

[flash width=500 height=100 loop=false]https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/172132606&amp;color=ff6600&amp;auto_play=false&amp;show_playcount=true&amp;show_comments=true[/flash]


----------



## Stephen Rees (Oct 14, 2014)

Sounds absolutely lovely.


----------



## reddognoyz (Oct 14, 2014)

that sounds great! I'm in!

"The harp mode lets the strings ring past releasing the keys, while the keyboard mode mirrors the response of a piano."

Harp mode please...I have always wished I could use the sustain pedal to damp the strings the way a harpist would with their hands, is that a possibility?

My wish list would include a chromatic playable mode, (it's so much easier than retuning, you can still play authentically)

and a tunable(via cc's) "white note only" version for glisses etc.


----------



## j_kranz (Oct 14, 2014)

Sounds great... looking forward to hearing more about this!


----------



## gregjazz (Oct 14, 2014)

reddognoyz @ Tue Oct 14 said:


> Harp mode please...I have always wished I could use the sustain pedal to damp the strings the way a harpist would with their hands, is that a possibility?


That's a fantastic idea--and very possible as well.



reddognoyz @ Tue Oct 14 said:


> My wish list would include a chromatic playable mode, (it's so much easier than retuning, you can still play authentically)
> 
> and a tunable(via cc's) "white note only" version for glisses etc.


Right now it's just mapped chromatically, but having some way to re-tune/re-map at least the white keys could be cool for glisses. Any suggestions on how you would like to control that aspect? You mentioned CCs, so I guess there would be 7 CCs needed for white key re-tuning.


----------



## Saxer (Oct 14, 2014)

i wish i've had this today... just finished a cue where this harp would have been cool 

sounds beautiful intimate and human. great idea to have both fingernail possibilities via sample start... so it's easy to play in time or quantize and set negative delay in daw plus earlier sample start in kontakt for rendering.

gliss: five controls or keyswitches corresponding to the harp pedals would be great (to switch combinations for maj, min, whole tone and dim scales).

at the moment i record harp gliss per white keys and edit the scale (i.e. all E to Eb, all B to Bb) to get the right notes without leaving the range (what would happen by simple transposing).

ok, when? :D


----------



## reddognoyz (Oct 14, 2014)

Hey Greg,

I've seen a couple of different strategies. The Symphonic Sphere harp has user definable tunings that are created by manipulating virtual pedals in the gui. These tunings can be stored in keyswitches that are triggered by the unused black notes.

The Garratan harp and Spitfire harp use the 7 cc method. FYI I have a custom console I created in DP so it's easy for me to manage the 7 cc's.


----------



## nutotech (Oct 14, 2014)

If you could do the Cineharp-style tempo sync'd glisses, that would be awesome. Instrument sounds beautious, Greg! Look forward throwing yet *another* Orange Tree library into the hopper!


----------



## Michael Barry (Oct 14, 2014)

sounds very nice


----------



## Rob Elliott (Oct 14, 2014)

Intimate and personal. I am in. I don't know about everyone else but 'small' and detailed is really important to me. I am done with the HUGE libraries - I want to bring my audience 'closer' to me/my intent - this will do that wonderfully. Thanks Greg.


----------



## Ale8ory (Oct 14, 2014)

I've always wanted a sampled glissando playing Sol to Do. It's in a ton of scores but no library that I've known as of yet...

And any library from OTS is great one in my opinion.


----------



## Penthagram (Oct 14, 2014)

Sounds lovely.

i´m in :D

For the "harp mode" perhaps you can have a look to the symphonic spehere harp .


----------



## playz123 (Oct 14, 2014)

Warm and intimate, and it should definitely 'work' well in pieces like the demo. There are other harp libraries perhaps better suited for orchestral work?? In any case, I like where this is headed, and it is definitely of interest. Looking forward to its release, Greg. 

And, Rob, I won't claim that I am done with huge libraries BUT I too am headed in the same direction re. bringing the listener closer to what I intend. Good point, and one I expect many people are considering now.


----------



## constaneum (Oct 14, 2014)

Greg. I'm curious with that flute as well. Is that flute from Mesawinds?


----------



## Mystic (Oct 14, 2014)

Wow, really liking where that harp is going. Will be keeping an eye out for more on it.


----------



## gregjazz (Oct 14, 2014)

constaneum @ Tue Oct 14 said:


> Greg. I'm curious with that flute as well. Is that flute from Mesawinds?


The flute was played by Elan at Soundemote, who does all my sample processing. I'm sure he'd be open to sampling it in the future!


----------



## Sid Francis (Oct 14, 2014)

Sounds fantastic. Make it affordable and i am in


----------



## quantum7 (Oct 15, 2014)

Rob Elliott @ Tue Oct 14 said:


> Intimate and personal. I am in. I don't know about everyone else but 'small' and detailed is really important to me. I am done with the HUGE libraries - I want to bring my audience 'closer' to me/my intent - this will do that wonderfully. Thanks Greg.



+ 1 Million!!!!!!


----------



## nutotech (Oct 15, 2014)

If you could do the Cineharp-style tempo sync'd glisses, that would be awesome. Instrument sounds beautious, Greg! Look forward throwing yet *another* Orange Tree library into the hopper!


----------



## gregjazz (Oct 15, 2014)

nutotech @ Wed Oct 15 said:


> If you could do the Cineharp-style tempo sync'd glisses, that would be awesome.


I tend to like having things use MIDI instead, since that can be more flexible than pre-recorded glisses. Just a thought, but what if there was a secondary script, or even multiscript, that would allow you to change the harp tuning as well as handle automatic glisses?


----------



## tmm (Oct 15, 2014)

IIRC, there's an Embertone instrument that has some seriously playable glisses like that, where all you need to do is play one note, then the other directly afterward. Maybe implement something like this, where you select the key, then it auto-glisses from note A to note B within that scale?


----------



## constaneum (Oct 15, 2014)

If i'm not mistaken, VSL also has this feature for the VSL harp which comes with the Kontakt Full


----------



## Patrick de Caumette (Oct 15, 2014)

I am in as well!

Finally, a warm, intimate harp!

Pre-recorded glisses not a priority here, as long as a gliss articulation is available.
Would love a harp tuning script a la Schere/Spitfire as well!

Congrats!


----------



## Lukas K (Oct 16, 2014)

Sounds very promising!

I didn't know that I need a new harp library 5 minutes ago


----------



## Saxer (Oct 16, 2014)

gregjazz @ 16.10.2014 said:


> Just a thought, but what if there was a secondary script, or even multiscript, that would allow you to change the harp tuning as well as handle automatic glisses?


cool!


----------



## Malo (Oct 17, 2014)

Did somebody ask for a detailed, intimate harp library?

I don't know why I didn't, but I'm sure glad someone did, because this sounds wonderful. :D 

The flexibility of having a close, and intimate version, and then: it might work to put it through Spat for some orchestral positioning.

I'm looking forward to this release!


----------



## gregjazz (Oct 17, 2014)

Malo @ Fri Oct 17 said:


> The flexibility of having a close, and intimate version, and then: it might work to put it through Spat for some orchestral positioning.


Ahhh, that's a great idea. I hadn't thought of that, but I wonder what it'd sound like using a spacial plugin such as Spat.


----------



## gregjazz (Oct 28, 2014)

Quick update: the harp is all nice and tuned!

I don't really have room on the current interface for gliss/tuning controls--so I might need to have a separate script tab for that. We'll see--I'm still open to suggestions on how to implement that.


----------



## NYC Composer (Oct 28, 2014)

I'm very interested in both the harp and its price point


----------



## Montisquirrel (Oct 29, 2014)

The Demo sounds beautiful. Looking forward to this Harp. Finally I can be my own Joanna Newsom :D


----------



## Jordan Gagne (Oct 29, 2014)

Any chance of getting bisbigliando in there too? That's one of the best features of the Spitfire Harp.


----------



## reddognoyz (Oct 29, 2014)

gregjazz @ Tue Oct 28 said:


> Quick update: the harp is all nice and tuned!
> 
> I don't really have room on the current interface for gliss/tuning controls--so I might need to have a separate script tab for that. We'll see--I'm still open to suggestions on how to implement that.



I would suggest a separate instrument for glisses, white notes only. 7 groups for each note of the scale(all the c's, all the d's etc) and assign a controller to each group to tune up or down a step. 
I put the velocity on cc#1 so you can create smooth glisses and crescendo or decresendo them with the mod wheel

there are a few inverted tunings really fun to use btw. A g7b9 scaled can be spelled G Ab B# Cb D F F for instance. That gives you one inversion in the gliss, and the two F's really help create a realistic sounding harp gliss.


----------



## gregjazz (Oct 29, 2014)

reddognoyz @ Wed Oct 29 said:


> I put the velocity on cc#1 so you can create smooth glisses and crescendo or decresendo them with the mod wheel


Hey, that's a really interesting idea, and makes a lot of sense for playing glisses.



Jordan Gagne @ Wed Oct 29 said:


> Any chance of getting bisbigliando in there too? That's one of the best features of the Spitfire Harp.


Ah, we didn't sample that, but you can simulate either one or two handed bisbigliando. Some of the chordal stuff might get a little more complex...


----------



## juliansader (Oct 31, 2014)

I am glad that a developer with experience in creating premier guitar libraries is now taking on the challenge of creating a harp library. At present (to the best of my knowledge), guitar libraries are more advanced than harp libraries - particularly with regard to humanization settings and all those little nuances such as re-pluck samples.

A question for Greg:
I notice that the harp will have only 4 velocity layers - will this not result in noticeable 'bumps' in timbre if one tries to play a smooth glissando from pp to ff? (Personally, I would actually prefer if the 4 velocity layers and 7 RR were arranged in 28 velocity layers, combined with a RR script.)

And a general question (if I may go slightly off topic...):
The various harp libraries that I am familiar with all sound very different from each other. For example, the Kontakt factory harp has a full-bodied but rather woolly sound in the bass. At the other extreme, the Garritan harps have a distincly twangy, buzzy tone. The other harp libraries are all over the place in terms of tone. So I am curious: Why do these sample libraries sound so different from each other? Is it due to different recording techniques? Perhaps different playing techniques? Or do different brands of orchestral pedal harps differ in construction and tone?


----------



## gregjazz (Oct 31, 2014)

juliansader @ Fri Oct 31 said:


> A question for Greg:
> I notice that the harp will have only 4 velocity layers - will this not result in noticeable 'bumps' in timbre if one tries to play a smooth glissando from pp to ff? (Personally, I would actually prefer if the 4 velocity layers and 7 RR were arranged in 28 velocity layers, combined with a RR script.)


That's a good question. I've played glisses on my keyboard and not run into that problem, but once the gliss portion of the script is complete whether or not that needs to be addressed should be apparent. If it's an issue, where the dynamics are too audibly different, I could pursue making them morph instead. It would require a lot of processing work on the samples, but would solve that issue.



juliansader @ Fri Oct 31 said:


> The various harp libraries that I am familiar with all sound very different from each other. For example, the Kontakt factory harp has a full-bodied but rather woolly sound in the bass. At the other extreme, the Garritan harps have a distincly twangy, buzzy tone. The other harp libraries are all over the place in terms of tone. So I am curious: Why do these sample libraries sound so different from each other? Is it due to different recording techniques? Perhaps different playing techniques? Or do different brands of orchestral pedal harps differ in construction and tone?


The brand of the harp definitely comes into play, and of course playing technique, etc. are all factors as well. Dynamics are a big factor in how twangy the harp's tone is. If you sample a harp in a large room, with mic positions that are much more distant, it's tough to get a usable signal-to-noise ratio with the low dynamics. Playing the harp louder gives you more volume, at the cost of more twang. Recording in a smaller room with closer mics gives you more possibilities with the dynamic range.


----------



## gregjazz (Nov 3, 2014)

juliansader @ Fri Oct 31 said:


> I notice that the harp will have only 4 velocity layers - will this not result in noticeable 'bumps' in timbre if one tries to play a smooth glissando from pp to ff?


Here's the first gliss test: http://orangetreesamples.com/audio/HarpGlissTest.mp3

I also have the tuning system operational--just have to work on the interface to add the necessary controls.


----------



## tmm (Nov 3, 2014)

Yep, that'll do.

Sounding good Greg!


----------



## gregjazz (Nov 3, 2014)

The tuning turned out really well--like reddognoyz suggested, having a doubled note is a pretty cool effect when playing glisses (and for normal playing too, of course!).


----------



## NYC Composer (Nov 3, 2014)

gregjazz @ Mon Nov 03 said:


> The tuning turned out really well--like reddognoyz suggested, having a doubled note is a pretty cool effect when playing glisses (and for normal playing too, of course!).



Hey Greg- how close do you think you are?


----------



## gregjazz (Nov 3, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Mon Nov 03 said:


> Hey Greg- how close do you think you are?


It's been in beta for around 6 weeks, so it's already been through a lot of testing, which is nice. With the addition of tuning settings and glissando it'll add more development time. Hopefully it'll be complete this month, though.


----------



## NYC Composer (Nov 4, 2014)

Good to know.


----------



## reddognoyz (Nov 4, 2014)

Hey Greg that sounds really good, looking forward to it!


----------



## Mystic (Nov 7, 2014)

I'm actually really excited for this. Do you have any idea of the timeline till release at this point?


----------



## gregjazz (Nov 8, 2014)

I'm still aiming to have it out by the end of the month. There's some new GUI work to be done for the tuning/gliss controls, and a little more internal logic when it comes to glisses.


----------



## Mystic (Nov 8, 2014)

gregjazz @ Sat Nov 08 said:


> I'm still aiming to have it out by the end of the month. There's some new GUI work to be done for the tuning/gliss controls, and a little more internal logic when it comes to glisses.


Wow, sooner than I expected.
Great work, Greg.


----------



## juliansader (Nov 10, 2014)

gregjazz @ Sat 01 Nov said:


> juliansader @ Fri Oct 31 said:
> 
> 
> > I notice that the harp will have only 4 velocity layers - will this not result in noticeable 'bumps' in timbre if one tries to play a smooth glissando from pp to ff? (Personally, I would actually prefer if the 4 velocity layers and 7 RR were arranged in 28 velocity layers, combined with a RR script.)
> ...



The glissando sample that you uploaded sounds smooth - and the harp has a wonderfully lush and 'magical' tone. Still, I think it would be great if you could include morphing layers (if it is not too much work). To the best of my knowledge, no other harp library has this feature.

If I may add to my wishlist: once the concert harp library is completed, perhaps you can consider combining your experience in electric guitar libraries and harp libraries to make... an electric harp library? 
(Such as played by the 'Harp twins': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAxdlPZ37Gc)
"Did somebody ask for a detailed electric harp library?" Yes, I did!


----------



## gregjazz (Nov 12, 2014)

juliansader @ Mon Nov 10 said:


> If I may add to my wishlist: once the concert harp library is completed, perhaps you can consider combining your experience in electric guitar libraries and harp libraries to make... an electric harp library?
> (Such as played by the 'Harp twins': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAxdlPZ37Gc)
> "Did somebody ask for a detailed electric harp library?" Yes, I did!


Hey, if I can find an electric harpist to sample, it'd just be the simple matter of swapping out the samples, since the script could stay the same. 

Quick update on progress--I have the tuning interface/system in. If I went the route of replicating the pedals as keyswitches, there would be a lot of keyswitches. There are 7 pedals, each with 3 states (flat, natural, sharp). The keyswitches shouldn't be self-toggling since things could really get messed up if you're playing your sequence over and over or from different places in your piece--so you're looking at 21 keyswitches total. Not ideal, especially considering that the harp itself has a pretty large playing range across the MIDI keyboard. There isn't much room left...

So I went a different route:

You can create up to 12 tuning configurations in the interface. You can switch between them in real-time using an octave of latching keyswitches. It seems to work pretty well.


----------



## HardyP (Nov 12, 2014)

gregjazz @ 2014-11-13 said:


> There are 7 pedals, each with 3 states (flat, natural, sharp). The keyswitches shouldn't be self-toggling since things could really get messed up if you're playing your sequence over and over or from different places in your piece--so you're looking at 21 keyswitches total.


Why not use 7 for the pedals, plus 2 "modifiers" (to be pressed concurrently) for sharp and flat?


----------



## gregjazz (Nov 12, 2014)

HardyP @ Wed Nov 12 said:


> gregjazz @ 2014-11-13 said:
> 
> 
> > There are 7 pedals, each with 3 states (flat, natural, sharp). The keyswitches shouldn't be self-toggling since things could really get messed up if you're playing your sequence over and over or from different places in your piece--so you're looking at 21 keyswitches total.
> ...


That's a really cool idea! The only downside is that it'd take a while to set up a more complex tuning.


----------



## Lukas K (Nov 15, 2014)

Or maybe you could use 7 keyswitches and their state would be specified by velocity.

*For example:*
flat (vel 1-42)
natural (vel 43-84)
sharp (vel 85-127)


----------



## gregjazz (Nov 15, 2014)

I'm shying away from using keyswitches to set the tuning of each individual pedal because it's not so practical to do live from your keyboard. Especially if you have a bunch of pedals to change at once. Plus it adds a lot of work in your sequencer, too.

So right now I made it so there are keyswitches that select different tuning pedal configurations. You have an octave of keyswitches, which is 12 different configurations. You set up each configuration from the interface. That way you get instant visual feedback of what the tuning is set to, plus can switch tuning configurations with a single keyswitch instead of having to push a whole bunch of keyswitches.

For playing it live OR sequencing with it, this approach makes it fast and easy to switch tunings.


----------



## Mystic (Dec 1, 2014)

No rush, but wanted to see if there was an update on how things were coming along.


----------



## gregjazz (Dec 1, 2014)

It should be out within the next couple of days.


----------



## Mystic (Dec 1, 2014)

YAY!!! :D


----------



## josepharena (Dec 1, 2014)

Oh my God: I know the high quality level of Orange Tree products...

I am afraid here is coming out another instrument I couldn't resist... :lol: 

Please, put a lot of "Glissando" demo to listen: I am looking for a powerful tool for that.

Ciao!


----------



## gregjazz (Dec 3, 2014)

It's out now!! Head over to the thread here: http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42387



josepharena @ Mon Dec 01 said:


> Please, put a lot of "Glissando" demo to listen: I am looking for a powerful tool for that.


Here's a video showing how the glissandos work:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIaygHjXMaw


----------



## DocMidi657 (Dec 3, 2014)

Hi Gregg,

Harp looks really great! Can it sync to more than 1 measure and end on the downbeat? Like a 2 measures or 3 measures etc.

Dave


----------



## gregjazz (Dec 3, 2014)

DocMidi657 @ Wed Dec 03 said:


> Harp looks really great! Can it sync to more than 1 measure and end on the downbeat? Like a 2 measures or 3 measures etc.


Right now the downbeat sync options are just a measure, half note, and quarter note, although it'd be super easy for me to add additional options (2 measures, 3 measures, etc.) for you.


----------



## DocMidi657 (Dec 3, 2014)

Thanks Gregg just emailed you thru your site.


----------

