# Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 10/6 1960's Template Test*



## mverta

Hello, everyone -

A lot of people who've listened to my score for Ultraman (_Ultra Galaxy Legends_) in this thread have emailed me asking about other samples I may have, so I've decided to post a few links to some sketches I've done over the last few years.

For the most part, these aren't "for" anything; they're just speed writing exercises, which I do almost every week. Compared to recent advances in libraries and sample performance, I feel all of them feature sub-standard mock-up palettes; some date as far back as 2001. But in the end, I think all the samples in the world can't compensate for bad composition; the music should stand on its own. And it's in that vein that I'm posting them. They represent a variety of styles, and feature some obvious inspirations. I hope you enjoy them.



*1) Star Trek Theme* - I did this arrangement the day after visiting some friends at ILM who were working on Abrams' _Star Trek_. I wondered how they were going to incorporate the original theme into the movie; turns out they didn't. But I had no idea what the movie was going to be like at the time, so I just decided to do something energetic and heroic, which still felt like part of the Main Title legacy of the films. This one made the rounds a bit on the internet back then...

*2) The Race* - I do a lot of these type of things... "score minus the movie." This piece attempts to tell the story of a race of some sort. Good guys, bad guys, the underdog. That sort of thing. 

*3) To the Promised Land!* - This is a sort of Wild West "frontiersmen" adventure piece. Very optimistic and full of promise. It's also got this pseudo-military quality to it. Needs a new name, I think.

*4) Psych Horror Theme* - I don't know what movie this short "Main Title" is supposed to be from, all I know is bad stuff happens in it. Probably in a forest.

*5) Young Leia* - Hey, take a wild guess what this piece is about. My v.i. setup from about 2005-2006 I'd guess, based on the sound. 

*6) The Hunters* - ...are coming for you. (Features what I'm pretty sure is a note-for-note ripoff of part of Goldsmith's Klingon music from _Star Trek:The Motion Picture_. I miss Jerry.) I notice the ending of this piece takes a sharp stylistic turn towards the inappropriate. I think I burned out on the vibe before I'd finished.

*7) http://www.mikeverta.com/IM_2/IM_Theme_v2.mp3 (Inspector Mom)* - In 2006, I wrote the score for my wife's miniseries on the Lifetime network called _Inspector Mom_. It was like a "young _Murder She Wrote_," 80's retro kinda vibe, which was fun. They don't do kitschy television show themes like this anymore.

*8) http://www.mikeverta.com/IM_2/Tango_Malefico.mp3 (The Tango Malefico)* - Another piece from _Inspector Mom_: a tango between the heroine and the "bad guy," who happens to be a nearly mustache-twirling Snidely Whiplash-type who twirls and whips her around the dance floor at a ball one night. Tongue-in-cheek, but fun to write.

*9) Mint Green Anal Wipes Jingle* - And finally, from the bottom of the barrel: There used to be a comedy radio show on in Los Angeles called, "The Phil Hendrie Show." In between comedy sketch bits, Phil used to have commercials by pretend sponsors of his show. One of the made-up sponsors was "Mint Green Anal Wipes." When I first heard him do it, I thought it was hysterical, so I wrote this jingle that night and recorded it with a friend, and sent it to him. He ended up using it on the show whenever Mint Green was "sponsoring." This was about an hour's worth of work. Please forgive me.


*Sketches from 2010-2011*



*1) I Heart Star Wars* - ...and, really, who doesn't? This short "cue" was written to test a new virtual template, and utilizes a few classic themes/motifs/flourishes from the films. Thanks - and apologies - to JW. Say what you will about The Man, it's harder to crib his hang than you'd think. 

*2) El Elegante* - Beware the seductive charms of this bullfighting Latin lover! Speed-writing exercise for the morning of 3/14/10.

*3) Mission: Improbable* - Bought a new sample library: Stormdrum 2; decided to give it a test run. Speed-writing exercise for 4/2/10. 

*4) Lieutenant America* - A patriotic adventure piece, heavy on the Horner. Sorry, "horns." Speed-writing exercise for 6/09/10. 

*5) Commander America* - For slightly more modern warfare. Speed-writing exercise for 6/10/10. 

*6) Abby vs. The Sea* - Last week, 16 year-old Abby Sunderland set sail with youthful optimism on her continuing quest to circumnavigate the globe, only to have her ship destroyed by stormy seas in the Indian Ocean. Did the plucky little sailor live to tell the tale? Speed-writing exercise for 6/12-13/10. 

*7) The Son at Dawn* - Two weeks ago, our first child was born - a baby boy. Nearly every morning since, I've been holding him, asleep on my chest, as the sun rises majestically over the mountain tops - welcoming not only each new day, but for him, a lifetime of adventures ahead... Speed-writing exercise for 9/24/10. 

*8) So 80's* - Okay, admittedly, this isn't really a "new piece" - it's a goofy tribute to all that 80's cheesy synthy goodness of my yesteryouth. If you're old enough to remember Apache A-Frame stands, and the Juno 106, you'll smile, hopefully. Speed-writing exercise for 10/25/10.

*9) Wonder Woman* - An "opening credits" theme for a modern Wonder Woman. Speed-writing exercise for 8/4/11.


NASA - A Human Adventure
_Selected Cues_

Introduction
The Gantry
The Dreamers
Go Fever
The Pioneers
Innovation
The Next Generation


*Podcasts*



*1) Training vs. Working* - Should you be home woodshedding all day, or just jump into the game even if your skill set has a lot of room for improvement? 

*2) http://www.mikeverta.com/Posts/VI_Techniques_Web.mov (VI Techniques)* - A videocast on some basic performance techniques for virtual instruments, plus lots of other useful little tidbits.

*3) The Future of Virtual Music* - Nostradamus brings you some predictions...

*4) Getting Paid* - It's an important part of the process.

*5) The Mind's Ear* - Learning to orchestrate from the brain, outward.

*6) VI Template Tour* - An instrument-by-instrument walkthrough. Learn some do's and don'ts.

*7) Finding Your Own Voice* - Crucial, or bullcrap?

*8) Composing in Real-Time



* 





 



_Click to Play Videos._


*Scores*








*The Race* - $35.00 US. 31 pages, spiral-bound, 10.5"x14"

*Stuff I Tell People*



*1) You don't get what you deserve; you get what you accept.
2) It's not who you know, it's how you know who you know.
3) The surest sign of slavery is to have a price and be bought for it.
4) Don't worry so much about getting the job. Worry about what happens when you do get the job.*


For those interested in some of my live-orchestra scores, there's the full score to the fantasy martial-arts film_ Forbidden Warrior_, my score for Six Flag's _Batman: The Simulator Ride_ and other assorted pieces on my website at mikeverta.com. Just click "MUSIC" up top.


Best,


_Mike


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## A.C.Edwards

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

Hey Mike,

Great work! I love the Star Trek mockup, sounds fantastic.

I'd love to get a look at your mockup setup for a project like that.

Keep it up, again, great work


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## WillMah Gold

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

Thanks a lot for that, Mike!!!


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## synergy543

Mike, despite your stellar mockup and orchestration skills, the visual imagery of your compositions is what really makes these so interesting to me. You present marvelous visual stories, particularly with the Race.

I would love to hear more about your process going from an initial concept through laying tracks. For example, with the Race, was this orchestrated entirely beforehand? Do you alter orchestration to fit the samples? How do you balance line-by-line expression vs. sections - does it require lots of editing? (I ask because you said you enter mod wheel expression as you record yet, the end result is a very cohesive balance between all players - not so easy to do!). Etc.

Thanks for sharing,

Greg


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## JBacal

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

Enviable orchestration skills and lots of fun to listen to!

Thanks for sharing these.

Best wishes,
Jay


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## AndreasWaldetoft

Great stuff Mike!

I especially like your arrangement of the Star Trek theme, very nice orchestration and mixing there.

Andreas


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## theheresy

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

mike pretty please post the other star trek one, the 'dumbed down' version. it was fun to compare. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## mverta

synergy543 @ Thu Jan 14 said:


> I would love to hear more about your process going from an initial concept through laying tracks. For example, with the Race, was this orchestrated entirely beforehand? Do you alter orchestration to fit the samples? How do you balance line-by-line expression vs. sections - does it require lots of editing? (I ask because you said you enter mod wheel expression as you record yet, the end result is a very cohesive balance between all players - not so easy to do!). Etc.
> 
> Thanks for sharing,
> 
> Greg




Sure, Greg...

I compose orchestrated. It's not a separate process; I see the compositions and the orchestrations as inseparably linked. I don't do reduced-staff sketches beforehand. I've found that good orchestration actually has an abstract, visual "art" element to it; it just "looks" a certain way on paper. If you blur your vision and just look at where the dark ink blobs are, you can get a feel for the piece. This is how the orchestration initially appears in my head when I first get the idea for a piece. Then it's just a matter of fleshing out what the blobs actually are, note-wise. And no, I never alter orchestration or composition to fit the samples. That's really cart-before-the-horse, to me. 

Once the piece is on paper, I just play it in. In terms of internal balance, I don't do anything special, and the only time I've ever edited MIDI data post-performance was on _Ultra Galaxy Legends_, and in 84 minutes of music I probably only did that a half-dozen times or so. It's very difficult for me to control the music that way, and it almost never feels human. I just perform and re-perform lead lines until they feel right. The rest of the balance I get from the dynamic markings, which are very important, and I make sure to honor them when I play. I know by this point where pp/mp/mf/f/ff is on my modwheel, which controls volume and expression for all but percussion instruments.

As for the ideas themselves, well... who knows where those things come from. The muses  But I am always scoring a film running in my head. I've never composed without having a movie in my head. I just follow it scene-by-scene like any other movie.... except...it's...in...my...head. ? 

From about the time I was 9 or 10 until I had live-in girlfriends, I went to sleep every night listening to just the audio track from various movies. Western film editing has a predictable internal rhythm and sound, usually. One can develop a feel for the way music plays around dialog; where scenes are going to cut; what sort of scenes follow which; a sense of typical internal structure. One can reinforce and organize this experience by studying scriptwriting and editing, but without allowing the brain to draw associations and derive patterns, this isn't of much use. By the time I did study this sort of structure and writing formally, I already had an internal sense for it, so I think that contributes a lot to my process of writing. "Visual," to me, is one of the most important qualities I strive for in my music. I've done quite a lot of directing, as well, so I think musically in terms of what I'd want from the rest of a scene or subject dramatically.


Everyone's process is different. The only necessary common ground, I feel, is having good ol' fashioned chops. I train for 12+ hours nearly every day, largely to compensate for my fear that I'm not innately that talented. In the end, I rely on my training for the heavy lifting. If I didn't really know my orchestration, my creative and compositional process would be crippled, and I'd move too slowly to hit deadlines, and couldn't do this professionally. But ultimately, I always feel more like custodian of the music than creator. It's as though I'm just another audience member, and when I write, it's with the enthusiasm of someone in the theater eagerly waiting to hear what comes next.





theheresy @ Thu Jan 14 said:


> mike pretty please post the other star trek one, the 'dumbed down' version. it was fun to compare. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:



I only did that version to get a lingering, bad taste out of my mouth. It was the musical equivalent of turning on a fan to clear a fart, and I regret posting it, because it sucks.  And honestly, to hear that kind of music, you've got like 99% of film scores today to reference. Ooooh! Snap! 





_Mike


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## theheresy

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*



synergy543 @ Thu Jan 14 said:


> Mike, thanks for answering my questions so clearly. Your comments on the visual aesthetics of the orchestral score are quite interesting and I know what you mean. However it takes a lot of skill (and time) to compose to full orchestrations the way you do so I find some consolation in the fact that even Ravel would write sketches and then orchestrate them.
> 
> I also realize that a great deal of the clarity I'm hearing, is in your orchestration, as well as the performance. While you have a lot going on, there is always a distinct focal point that doesn't get obscured and the sound never gets muddy. Very sweet indeed.
> 
> btw, my wife came in while I was playing your music and commented "Now that guy should have composed for the last Harry Potter film!" (which we just saw last night). And I completely agree.



Yea when I see guys like Mike doing Ultraman rather than the top notch things like Harry Potter it really makes me wonder whether hollywood is more about who you know and "luck" (and right timing etc) rather than pure skill alone because it's quite evident Mike can blow away many top hollywood guys in terms of writing proficiency, skill, technique, etc. I suppose there's also always the final "it" factor in terms of being able to write memorable melodies and it's one thing to be a technician but quite another to have gift for memorable melodies which is let's be realistic what 99% of music is about in terms of drawing power. The top guys aren't famous for their technique since none of them have that in common. There's guys like Elfman/Zimmer with zero technique (not classically trained) and guys like Williams/Horner with PHD's so what's the common denominator? It's the un-teachable natural born innate ability to make epic unforgettable melodies that pull the audience in emotionally. This is something no amount of pure technique will ever get you. Pure technique will only give you the facility to put the true ideas on paper faster but won't actually give you any ideas. 
There were countless masters you'll never hear about again in the 1700's and 1800's living right next door to the Beethovens and Mozarts who were just as technically proficient, but simply not as fertile in that one all elusive 'it' factor. There's guys that can write fugues ten times faster and ten times better and more correct than Beethoven (just take Padre Martini, Fux, Albrechtsberger, etc) yet will never achieve 1/100th the greatness Beethoven achieved because they simply didn't have "IT". 
The only problem with this whole scenario is that it seems sometimes (or is it more often than not?) people who DO have it are not even given the opportunity to prove that they do for whatever political hollywood related reason. Mike could very well be one of those people. I see good melodic fertility in his throw away sketches but it's sad to think that some of us perhaps Mike included will never get that chance to prove ourselves to the world on the Grand Stage.


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## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

You can't worry about that shit. Master your craft, always do your absolute best, network whenever and wherever you can, be personable and fun to work with. Let the universe take care of the rest.

_Mike


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## synergy543

Mike, I wrote my comment with no slight intended (as "Mr. Heresy" mis-interpreted) and meant "in addition to" what you've done.

I have 100% respect for your work on Ultraman and its one of my top-notch references - a brilliant compostion/orchestration, mockup and mix.


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## theheresy

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*



mverta @ Thu Jan 14 said:


> You can't worry about that shit. Master your craft, always do your absolute best, network whenever and wherever you can, be personable and fun to work with. Let the universe take care of the rest.
> 
> _Mike



very true Mike because at the end of the day one can't do anything about it anyway other than letting the universe take care of itself. But hey Mike you're super young still in terms of composers who have a 'break through' so I have faith that your time is yet to come.


I can't find where it is now but I saw an article a while back that had the average age for all the top film composers for when they did their first film and when they had their first break through film and it listed I'd say over 30-50 of history's top film composers and the average age often was in the 40's or even 50's.


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## theheresy

synergy543 @ Thu Jan 14 said:


> Mike, I wrote my comment with no slight intended (as "Mr. Heresy" mis-interpreted) and meant "in addition to" what you've done.
> 
> I have 100% respect for your work on Ultraman and its one of my top-notch references - a brilliant compostion/orchestration, mockup and mix.



You misinterpret me, friend. I wasn't 'interpreting' your comments at all merely adding my own based on a train of thought that you sent me on. My comments had nothing to do with yours and did not in any way reflect what you said nor had any implication that you were slighting anyone.


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## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

I knew what you guys both meant; there was no ill-will there, so don't sweat it.


_Mike


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## theheresy

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*



mverta @ Thu Jan 14 said:


> I knew what you guys both meant; there was no ill-will there, so don't sweat it.
> 
> 
> _Mike



Hey Mike one important thing I wanted to ask you though (and to to get the thread back on its track) is this.

When you envision these soundscapes and pieces in your mind, do you envision a lot of these sort of non-diatonic elements just based on your 'aesthetic memory' so to speak of what you know certain textures in this 'idiom' should sound like from having listened to a lot of Goldsmith, Williams, etc like the rest of us? OR do you for example do some doodling around on the keyboard to come up with certain of the more alinear aspects. 
For example what I mean is, a lot of times when I think of melodies for myself, it's very classical harmony oriented both structurally, harmonically, etc. In my mind for example my 'inner ear' wants to go from C major chord to G major for example rather than C major to Bb major which is a lot harder to 'imagine' with the inner ear without having a long aesthetic memory of hearing that sort of atypical harmonic progression. 
So to further my question, do you often write more 'basic' harmonic progressions and then try to DELIBERATELY spice them up on paper through actual application of your craft or do you envision from the onset most of the more atypical (atypical in terms of classical harmony/idiom is what I mean) in your head as part of your intrinsic and ingrained aesthetic. 
To simplify it a little more since I feel it's a bit of a convoluted question:
do you sometimes write and HEAR simpler harmonic progressions/passages in your head and write them out let's say as something like C, F, G (I, IV, V to make an overly simplistic example) and then once it's down on paper or in your sequencer you say to yourself "Hmm this would sound a little more vibrant/interesting if I did C, Bb, Ab (I, bVII, BVI, etc)" and then adjust those chords accordingly to fit that certain film idiom aesthetic? 
Do you sort of see where I'm getting at? Or is it more of a balance of the two or do you by this point just naturally think and FEEL in the world of that film aesthetic to the point where you hear these more unnatural harmonies naturally occurring in your imagination when you initially hear the first visionary spark of the music as it enters your brain?


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## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

I understand your question and the answer is that my background is jazz, which means I grew up in a briar patch of complex harmonies and challenging dissonances used as consonances; it's very comfortable for me. The first stuff I wrote were big band pieces, and jazz ensemble stuff, and I was always drawn to really challenging and interesting progressions. A release is only satisfying if preceded by tension. I'd say that my orchestral pieces are actually the result of my straightening out inherently more complex harmonies into simpler harmonies, instead of the other way around. I know how to alienate most audiences quickly if left to my own devices. 




_Mike


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## theheresy

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*



mverta @ Thu Jan 14 said:


> I understand your question and the answer is that my background is jazz, which means I grew up in a briar patch of complex harmonies and challenging dissonances used as consonances; it's very comfortable for me. The first stuff I wrote were big band pieces, and jazz ensemble stuff, and I was always drawn to really challenging and interesting progressions. A release is only satisfying if preceded by tension. I'd say that my orchestral pieces are actually the result of my straightening out inherently more complex harmonies into simpler harmonies, instead of the other way around. I know how to alienate most audiences quickly if left to my own devices.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Mike


ah very interesting. Yes there's something very jazz related in a lot of those types of pieces in terms of their liberal usage of 7th chords and suspensions and use of major 2nd intervals within chords etc. 
That's a very good and unique trait to have (the jazz training) I wish I myself knew more about jazz.
So Mike what's on the horizon any new projects coming up or nothing yet?

What do you do in between major scoring assignments as regards to music


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## fido94

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

Mike, you have an incredible talent. I am a big fan of your work.
Thank you for sharing.


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## Marius Masalar

mverta @ Thu Jan 14 said:


> ...I compose orchestrated. It's not a separate process; I see the compositions and the orchestrations as inseparably linked. I don't do reduced-staff sketches beforehand. I've found that good orchestration actually has an abstract, visual "art" element to it; it just "looks" a certain way on paper. If you blur your vision and just look at where the dark ink blobs are, you can get a feel for the piece. This is how the orchestration initially appears in my head when I first get the idea for a piece. Then it's just a matter of fleshing out what the blobs actually are, note-wise. And no, I never alter orchestration or composition to fit the samples. That's really cart-before-the-horse, to me.
> 
> Once the piece is on paper, I just play it in. In terms of internal balance, I don't do anything special, and the only time I've ever edited MIDI data post-performance was on _Ultra Galaxy Legends_, and in 84 minutes of music I probably only did that a half-dozen times or so. It's very difficult for me to control the music that way, and it almost never feels human. I just perform and re-perform lead lines until they feel right...


Hi Mike,

Just wanted to chime in and comment that, besides enjoying your sketches here (as I've come to expect from pieces of yours), I also find it refreshing and very encouraging to hear that your composition process and mine seem to be virtually identical in terms of orchestrating being part of the composition process, and sequencing being a case of performing in the instrument lines individually to avoid messy and tedious manual MIDI manipulation that interrupts the flow of work. Knowing that my instincts are in tune with someone of your calibre is a great feeling.

I think we'd get along, you and I, it's a pity we're far apart or I'd say we should grab a coffee some day. I guess I'll go back to always doing my best, networking whenever and wherever possible, and mastering my craft. Let the universe take care of the rest.


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## Angel

Very good and helpful thread!
And +1 for theheresy about why-the-heck-not-choosing-GOOD-composers-instead-of-famous-ones.

And I like the discussion about harmonics as I was wondering about that topic myself.
And I hate not to have started into music with jazz.
My mind wants to go from C to G too, not from C to Abj7#5#7b9 

All the best, Mike. Keep up that great work!

EDIT: And I like that "anal"-piece. It really kicks my ass :lol: *scnr*


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## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

Thanks, everyone - I glad you're enjoying the sketches!




theheresy @ Thu Jan 14 said:


> What do you do in between major scoring assignments as regards to music



Tons of stuff; 12+ hours almost every day. Ear training, speed writing, listening/analyzing, and of course writing, writing, writing. In some ways, I treat my career like a ship that's taking on water, and the holes in the bow are the weaknesses in my skillset - I rush to plug them as fast as I can.

But equally important, I feel, is living. Music is a language, and nothing's more depressing than a person who has a great vocabulary and diction, who has nothing to say. So while I train religiously, even compulsively, I think you have to balance your life with interesting people and experiences, challenges, and passion. All these things and more become the raw material with which to create, no matter what your discipline.




_Mike


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## stevenson-again

mike,

truly outstanding. as good writing as i have heard in a long time, and incredible mockups - really exceptionally good - i would say they stand alongside the best mock-ups i have ever heard. i am most impressed.


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## Angel

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

I just 've been on your Site.... yawdropping :shock: 
Whished you had written the scores for Potter 4 to 6  (wait, I don't know 6 yet)
Number 7 is reserved for Johnny


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## musicpete

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*



Angel @ 15.1.2010 said:


> Whished you had written the scores for Potter 4 to 6  (wait, I don't know 6 yet)
> Number 7 is reserved for Johnny


You're not the only one wishing for that.... :( Let's hope they bring back John Williams to save that trainwreck of a film series. And let's not start about that awful background muzak in the last 2 movies. *imaginary vomiting smiley here*

To stay on topic: Those are not only nice demos but great pieces of music. I like them a lot! Each one shows about 100 times more craftmanship and musical skill than you could find in most "A-list" composers nowadays. 
In fact, the only thing I do NOT like that much is Mikes preference for a boatload of washy reverb. Like the latest Zimmer scores, his music unfortunately sounds like it was recorded from a lavatory stall down the corridor. Which in my opinion damages the wonderful music by robbing it of sonic detail... :( 

Anyways: Great work on those demos Mike! From the bottom of my heart I wish you a lot of big and well-paying jobs! =o


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## theheresy

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*



mverta @ Fri Jan 15 said:


> Thanks, everyone - I glad you're enjoying the sketches!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theheresy @ Thu Jan 14 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What do you do in between major scoring assignments as regards to music
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tons of stuff; 12+ hours almost every day. Ear training, speed writing, listening/analyzing, and of course writing, writing, writing. In some ways, I treat my career like a ship that's taking on water, and the holes in the bow are the weaknesses in my skillset - I rush to plug them as fast as I can.
> 
> But equally important, I feel, is living. Music is a language, and nothing's more depressing than a person who has a great vocabulary and diction, who has nothing to say. So while I train religiously, even compulsively, I think you have to balance your life with interesting people and experiences, challenges, and passion. All these things and more become the raw material with which to create, no matter what your discipline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Mike
Click to expand...


huh.......? 12 hours a day? You mean per week right? I think 'day' was a typo. 
How can you possibly mean 12 hours a day you train, can you take us through that schedule? I just can't imagine it lol..

p.s. you said you view your skillset as a ship taking on water with holes, well out of curiosity what do you consider those holes presently (obviously they must change over time as you improve certain weak points in your skillset and move onto other new challenges etc)? So what do you currently consider your biggest weaknesses musically?
As for me, I already described what one of my biggest ones are. I consider myself to have a very good ear / above average relative pitch where I can compose most of my stuff on paper without ever having to go to piano/computer and I do train on that specifically as you do, but like I said only recently am I trying to have the hollywood/film IDIOM as my "natural" aesthetic, hear the tunes in my head IN that harmonic aesthetic rather than hearing augmented 6th precadentials a la Mozart due to my classical training background. So sonically speaking I'm trying to improve my 'inner ear' and be able to write things on paper that sound more jazz/goldsmith/williams influenced like your music, without having to dabble around on the keyboard first to get all those rich non diatonic/alinear harmonies.

I'm curious what someone of your stature and brilliant ear can possibly think of as a weakness to yourself currently?


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## Angel

you are scary


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## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

Sure beats my training: Chips and TV :wink:


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## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

Equally important activities, in my book.  And don't forget, all this stuff is just what I feel I have to do to compete. You may have a lot more talent than I do, and don't have to work that hard. We're all in the same game, pursuing the same sorts of goals, and there's just no guarantees, or fool-proof methods. You have to do what feels right.


_Mike


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## synergy543

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*



mverta @ Fri Jan 15 said:


> ... have you listened to the full Daphnis and Chloe recently? Or the Rite of Spring? I mean, my God.
> _Mike



Scary to realize how easy it is for us to loose our bearings in the virtual world.

Guy, pass the chips please.

-------------------------
Ah....the opium and lure of vi is making me sleepy...
Imagine, I could rule the world with one key press!


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## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

Or the live world, for that matter. One of the reasons I don't get too cocky about my work is that I listen to these amazing pieces of music all the time for study. I honestly believe that over time, we're getting farther and farther away from that quality of work. But I think it's a noble pursuit to try and recapture any portion of the quality of the awe-inspiring music that's come before us.


_Mike


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## synergy543

Too true man!

I thought I was the only one thinking this. Good to know there's another. 
We should make a special handshake or something.


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*



mverta @ Sat Jan 16 said:


> Or the live world, for that matter. One of the reasons I don't get too cocky about my work is that I listen to these amazing pieces of music all the time for study. I honestly believe that over time, we're getting farther and farther away from that quality of work. But I think it's a noble pursuit to try and recapture any portion of the quality of the awe-inspiring music that's come before us.
> 
> 
> _Mike



This reminds me. The other day I heard the 1st mov of Rach 2, and after hearing the opening pages I said to myself, "This is music", I had forgotten how beautiful this piece was and couldn't remember the last time I was moved like that, including any of the best film scores. I felt like what I do was garbage compared to that. Not saying today we should write like that, but the message was so powerful!


----------



## Nathan Allen Pinard

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

I posted your track on the STO forums as I'm sure people would like that (STO = Star Trek Online)

Also, they DID use the original theme in the end credits to JJ-Trek.


----------



## synergy543

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*



mverta @ Fri Jan 15 said:


> But I think it's a noble pursuit to try and recapture any portion of the quality of the awe-inspiring music that's come before us.
> 
> 
> _Mike



Although to what extent can you really do this? For as you say, music is really a language and if your audience doesn't have the vocabulary. Its like an MIT student trying to explain String Theory to a knitting group....they get the "string" part. :?

I also think our attention spans are now much shorter than they were in the past.

And weren't audiences in the past musically educated better? Without video games and TV, didn't ordinary people just play the piano for fun? Music used to be a prime form of entertainment even back when I was a kid. We'd ride our bikes to the record store, get home, sit down, and actually (shh....) "LISTEN" to the entire record! And after Jimi Hendrix, and Led Zepplin, I discovered my dad's record collection.... Holst and Stravinsky....and ELP and YES glorified it. Music WAS entertainment, not just an mp3 background drone.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

I'm not suggesting concert music will become popular music again. However, these great pieces endure for a reason; they're emotionally and dramatically relevant and powerful. This is why we still tap them for film scores today. By increasing our mastery, we just have more tools, more to say, and can write more effective music. We're attempting it anyway.


"Attention span" is a muscle, as well.  It can be honed and strengthened. If one can't focus for more than an instant, one is permanently robbed of the insight and joy of concepts, stories, and wisdom whose complexity requires more time. But changing the way people perceive isn't our problem. I notice people still slow down on the highway, no matter how much of a rush they're in, to see if there's any dead bodies in the car crash being tended to. It's not a question of how much time people will take to absorb things; it's a question of how inherently compelling it is to them. We have to master our craft, and present them this compelling experience before we can claim they're no longer capable of sitting through it.



_Mike


----------



## synergy543

Good points, I agree. (you're no fun to argue with)

Nevertheless, I can't help wondering how our modern lives (with all of our computers, tools and modern life's distractions) compare to those of past composers (I envision them working for weeks at a piano in a cottage on a pastoral lake). With all of our modern devices and conveniences, do we really have an advantage? Technically, yes. But practically, I spend a disproportionate amount of my day dealing with an amazing amount of distractions and even when I'm concentrating, I'm multiplexing which divides my time.

Speaking of distractions, your CD just arrived in the mail (well, it looks nice).

(Tough choice here....talk with the man himself or listen to his music....testing my "attenion span" muscle here.)

But you get my point, earning the money, purchasing, installing, dealing with software dongles and upgrades, learning the software and so much more is all such a challenge. Its quite an uphill battle for the modern composer even before the music begins. 

And then, nobody wants to actually pay for music. 

Its the best of times and the worst of times.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

Ah, yes, which is why I still do most of my work on paper at the piano, and my cell phone's flashiest feature is a calculator. I'm a dinosaur. 


_Mike


----------



## sherief83

Your sir are amazing! quiet inspiring to know that someone could write like that in that speed and still comes out great!

I wish you the greatest success in the business mike!


----------



## SergeD

Very impressive how it's alive.

There is a lot of warmth in your mockups, really no lifeless parts. Do you use a lot of CC like #11 ?

SergeD


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

Just modwheel for dynamic crossfading between samples/volume. I have my keyboard velocity input range scaled way back as well for everything except percussion, so 90% of the performance is in the modwheel.


_Mike


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

I rebuilt my template for the billionth time last week, and did this little speed writing exercise yesterday to test it out. I can't think of a better way to get around all the colors of the orchestra than with a Williams-type orchestration, so I did a bona-fide _Star Wars_ thing using some of the classic themes, and one of my own, in a sort of cue-without-the-picture vibe.

I Heart Star Wars

First post also updated: http://vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15017


_Mike


----------



## bluejay

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*



mverta @ Sat Jan 16 said:


> "Attention span" is a muscle, as well. It can be honed and strengthened. If one can't focus for more than an instant, one is permanently robbed of the insight and joy of concepts, stories, and wisdom whose complexity requires more time. But changing the way people perceive isn't our problem. I notice people still slow down on the highway, no matter how much of a rush they're in, to see if there's any dead bodies in the car crash being tended to. It's not a question of how much time people will take to absorb things; it's a question of how inherently compelling it is to them. We have to master our craft, and present them this compelling experience before we can claim they're no longer capable of sitting through it.
> 
> _Mike



Absolutely agree here... I used to say the same thing about mathematics ... doing basic mathematical exercises is like press-ups for the brain. Unless you do them, your brain is simply too unfit to work on more advanced mathematics.

I think I'm also starting to find it faster to go back to paper these days, particularly for any non-trivial string writing.


----------



## hbuus

OT: Mike, I'm curious to know if you have tried Vienna MIR and what you think of it in that case. Apparently MIR should make it easier to achieve a clear and well-sounding orchestral mix, especially for mere morals such as myself! 

As for this latest piece of yours, it's great stuff - as usual.
Amazing that you go about producing this kind of wonderful music just as a quick little exercise!
Lots of respect.

Best,
Henrik


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

As always, exceptional abilities for arranging, especially in that style. Has John Williams heard this rendition?


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

I have not tried MIR. I'm skeptical that it would work for my setup because I use so many different libraries. Because each library tends to have its own level of inherent ambience in the samples, I have to make compensatory adjustments across multiple reverbs to try and unify them. With MIR, everything would be integrated into the same space, carrying the ambience discrepancies with them. At least this is how I understand it. When working within a single library, I can imagine it'd be a great tool, but I just haven't had opportunity to work with it.




Guy Bacos @ Tue Mar 02 said:


> As always, exceptional abilities for arranging, especially in that style. Has John Williams heard this rendition?




 Somehow I rather doubt that, but I guess one never knows - we're all on the same internet... 


_Mike


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

No, I just thought you might of sent it to him. Yeah, I doubt John Williams would chime in here.


----------



## Nino Rajacic

New template Sounds great Mike, as old ones did too?! 

If you don't need anymore some of your old, rusty and dusty templates can I get one?


----------



## dannthr

Mike, I don't use MIR, but I believe that you can adjust the dry/wet mix on each individual instrument, yeah, it'd be a headache initially, and you've already done the hard work of building a great mix template, and I don't think you need anything like MIR--but I'm just saying, if that's what is standing between you and MIR, then there you go.

I feel like a mix template is more about sound quality than accoustic simulation. We are using accoustic references, yes, when we mix, but ultimately we go about achieving that in a number of disparate methods that have more to do with the source we're utilizing than the mix template itself.

Because really, I mean, if we could just pop instruments in a hall and record that without a recordist/mixer then we would--but we can't, because mixing is more than just simulation.

MIR is a really neat idea, I just think it may be a little misguided in what we're actually trying to do when we mix.

But I can't talk, eh, I don't use it myself.


----------



## Hannes_F

Hi Mike,
no time to write much right now but thanks for sharing your sketches and thoughts here.


----------



## EnTaroAdun

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

I'll make it short:
Impressive!


----------



## Rob

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

Incredible achievement, Mike... you make it seem so easy...


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

Thanks for the comments, guys...


Setup wise, I have a feeling my rig is just like everyone else's: a ton of v.i. tracks laid out in a sequencer - in my case, Pro Tools 8. I group the individual instruments by section, and feed the sections each to their own Altiverb. And that's pretty much it! 


...that, and I never quantize. Humans can't.



_Mike


----------



## Tanuj Tiku

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

Mike,


Lots of great music here.


I wish you would compose something new! It will be really nice to hear something nwe thats not done to a film or anything - or is not referential as such.


Great chops on the StarWars piece.


Good Luck!


Tanuj.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

I'm sorry; can you explain that a bit more? None of these pieces are from film scores of mine; they're just practice sketches.


_Mike


----------



## Tanuj Tiku

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

Hey Mike!


Thats exactly my point. You have such great musical chops and a wonderful understanding of the orchestra.


Most of your pieces here are exactly that - speed exercises. 

For example - I loved what you recorded live for Warner Brothers - the one on your web site.


My point being - I would love to hear you do non star wars etc related orchestration/composition.....


Capital City was great...stuff like that..as opposed to Star Trek or star Wars emulation....which are great fun to listen as well of course!



Best,

Tanuj.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

Tanuj -

The complete score for the film _Forbidden Warrior _is up on my site, and there's a link to the complete score for _Ultraman_ which is streaming on a server at the top of the first post in this thread (of which Capital City is part, by the way). Those pieces represent my core sensibilities, with _Ultraman_ being the most recent, of course. My background is jazz and Big Band writing, but I don't have any recordings to post. And certainly the music I wrote for the Lifetime series _Inspector Mom_ has almost no orchestral component, but it's also a deliberately kitschy 80's retro vibe.


_Mike


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

First post updated with a new piece for 3/14/2010 - "El Elegante."


_Mike


----------



## synergy543

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

Mike, I've posted more than my share in this thread already but I must thank you for posting these new and most interesting pieces. And you've triggered more questions I must ask. The orchestration on "I Heart Star Wars" is very impressive, yet, I'm confused based on what you wrote above. So no score? You're improvising orchestration as you lay tracks?

I suppose with a strong enough orchestral vocabulary this would be possible, although this is exactly why I'm going back to score study at the moment. So when do you feel you need to score? And if you're scoring from your head, then why is it you wouldn't sketch? Just wondering.....

Also, you mentioned you're using ProTools and Avid now own Sibelius. Are you integrating the two as discussed in this video? Might be useful for scoring for a real orchestra, yet it still seems that for mockups, you'd need a two-step process (first score, then mockup) to come close to attaining the quality you're achieving. I don't see how subtle timing variation could be retained when moving to Sibelius without quantization.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

It depends on the piece - for actual cues or longer pieces, I rely on the birds-eye view of a score on paper to help me keep colors straight. It also helps to immediately answer voicing/runs questions, things like that.

The _Star Wars_ idiom, like all these sketch pieces, almost always represents what I can do off the top of my head, without needing outside reference support. A piece like "El Elegante" is so simplistic, harmonically, that I'm not going to get lost in voicings, and the orchestration is completely straight ahead. So generally, no score is necessary. I do these pieces just to practice, get sharper, and hone/check-in-on my first instincts, since this is what we lean on when in the pressure of a bona fide gig.


_Mike


----------



## synergy543

The way the orchestration evolves in "I Heart Star Wars" is quite interesting and varied. It would seem like quite a job to plan out and keep track of without a score! Great work.


----------



## requiem_aeternam7

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*



mverta @ Sun Mar 07 said:


> Thanks for the comments, guys...
> 
> 
> Setup wise, I have a feeling my rig is just like everyone else's: a ton of v.i. tracks laid out in a sequencer - in my case, Pro Tools 8. I group the individual instruments by section, and feed the sections each to their own Altiverb. And that's pretty much it!
> 
> 
> ...that, and I never quantize. Humans can't.
> 
> 
> 
> _Mike



Mike, you've spoken about your setup before but I don't recall if you ever said specifically about your reverb set up: can you please tell me when you group the sections as you've said and send them to their own altiverb, do you do it in the way used by many people here i.e. you give them an Early Reflection only reverb and then send them to a master orchestra buss that has a tail or do you just apply the reverb with the tail and everything onto each section...can you please specify more on that I will be greatly appreciative, thank you and loved 'el elegante' 
just sucks that I'm listening on really crappy headphones right now and can't hear the mix as well as I'd like. 
By the way in the first theme of El Elegante I'm pretty sure I heard snippets of your old melody for a piece I can't recall the name of..I think it was that jubilant 4th of july celebratory piece that you wrote a while back and posted on the VSL forums, I could be wrong though!


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

Yes, "El Elegante's" melody starts very like the melody for "To the Promised Land." That little idea will probably continue to show up from time to time until it's used in a "real" piece, I suspect.

Altiverb-wise, I don't use Early Reflection only, but I definitely dial the tails down quite a bit. One thing I do, though, is send every section to every reverb, meaning the horns are fed primarily through the horn reverb, but of course they also "bleed" a little bit in the other reverbs - I just send a little bit all around the room.


_Mike


----------



## requiem_aeternam7

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*



mverta @ Sun Mar 14 said:


> Yes, "El Elegante's" melody starts very like the melody for "To the Promised Land." That little idea will probably continue to show up from time to time until it's used in a "real" piece, I suspect.
> 
> Altiverb-wise, I don't use Early Reflection only, but I definitely dial the tails down quite a bit. One thing I do, though, is send every section to every reverb, meaning the horns are fed primarily through the horn reverb, but of course they also "bleed" a little bit in the other reverbs - I just send a little bit all around the room.
> 
> 
> _Mike



Mike, can you be moer specific please. I understand about the send bleed over thing you're referring to, but I don't think you confirmed whether you do send all the group altiverbs over into a master altiverb buss? And can you give a general brief description of the tails, you don't have to get specific with exact numbers but is it something like your group section altiverbs have their tails dialed down let's say to 1.0 second lengths and then you buss them over to a master orchestral reverb with a 3 second tail or 4 second etc..? Thanks very much!


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

The setup is structured this way: Instruments>Groups>Master Bus.

So, for example, all my individual Trumpet and Trombone tracks (Instruments) have their outputs bussed directly to the Brass Group, which has an Altiverb on it. I also then add some sends to those same Instrument tracks, and direct a little bit of signal to the remaining Groups (Horns, 3 Percussion Groups, Strings, etc.) to get "mic bleed." 

In some cases, a Group's Altiverb will have the Early Reflection turned up or down, or the Tail turned up or down, or the Mix adjusted Dry/Wet, or all three. For example, for my Brass Group, I left the Early Reflection at default, but I turned the Tail up 1.62db, and adjusted the Mix to 50% wet. You could probably achieve this same or similar sound by having the Mix wetter, less Tail, and more Early Reflection, but these were settings I arrived at just during the normal experimentation phase, and when I was happy with it, I left it alone. In all cases, the Groups are then routed to a single Master Bus.

The Master Bus has no "overall reverb" on it. That's a perfectly fine way to do things, but I just don't do it. In many ways, an overall reverb seems to be the last thing I need. There's plenty of reverb in the mix as it is. 


_Mike


----------



## requiem_aeternam7

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

Wow Mike thanks for the response. I understand now what you are doing. 
But wow..why no reverb on the master buss and it sort of begs the question what's the purpose of even having them all routed to that master orchestral buss then? Is it just to be able to control the volume so there's no clipping or what?


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

Yes, the Master Bus is just an overall volume/levels thing. Plus I can throw an overall EQ or mastering plug-in on there if need be.


_Mike


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

Hey guys -

I'm getting a bunch of PM's and emails asking if I'm the same Mike Verta who's married to Danica McKellar (Winnie Cooper from _The Wonder Years_), since her pregnancy announcement came out in People magazine and a bunch of news places yesterday. Just wanted to say yes, that's me, and thanks so much for the well-wishes, congrats, good vibes, and whatnot. And to one dude: No, I'm not sending you her panties. 


Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled program...


_Mike


----------



## germancomponist

Very good orchestration! 

I am impressed and enjoyed listening very much!

Well, well done, Mike!

Thanks for sharing.

Gunther


----------



## requiem_aeternam7

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*



mverta @ Thu Mar 18 said:


> Hey guys -
> 
> I'm getting a bunch of PM's and emails asking if I'm the same Mike Verta who's married to Danica McKellar (Winnie Cooper from _The Wonder Years_), since her pregnancy announcement came out in People magazine and a bunch of news places yesterday. Just wanted to say yes, that's me, and thanks so much for the well-wishes, congrats, good vibes, and whatnot. And to one dude: No, I'm not sending you her panties.
> 
> 
> Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled program...
> 
> 
> _Mike



Hey bub there's already a separate thread for that topic! Stay on point!

j/k :mrgreen:


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

Didn't realize! Thanks for letting me know 


_Mike


----------



## requiem_aeternam7

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*



mverta @ Thu Mar 18 said:


> Didn't realize! Thanks for letting me know
> 
> 
> _Mike



oh p.s. though, now that I know you are the same Verta...CAN YOU PLEASE GET ME WINNIE COOPER'S AUTOGRAPH?? 




j/k :mrgreen: o-[][]-o


----------



## Studio E

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

Like many others, I'd just like to thank you for sharing your music, experience, and process with the rest of us. You could have peaked my sense of jealousy just being the guy that got to marry Winnie Cooper but then your music kicks ass too. Lol. Congrats on your career, your marriage and your soon-to-be son/daughter. I'm going to have a to save your musical postings as inspiration to be later referenced. Thanks again! 

Eric


----------



## Ashermusic

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*



mverta @ Thu Mar 18 said:


> Hey guys -
> 
> I'm getting a bunch of PM's and emails asking if I'm the same Mike Verta who's married to Danica McKellar (Winnie Cooper from _The Wonder Years_), since her pregnancy announcement came out in People magazine and a bunch of news places yesterday. Just wanted to say yes, that's me, and thanks so much for the well-wishes, congrats, good vibes, and whatnot. And to one dude: No, I'm not sending you her panties.
> 
> 
> Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled program...
> 
> 
> _Mike



But....but...... but..... she likes Math! Ewww.!

Seriously, congrats


----------



## kid-surf

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*



mverta @ Fri Jan 15 said:


> I only sleep when I'm tired, which can often not happen until well after 24 hours have passed. I've actually figured out that I'd be happiest on a 36-hour day. That's why if you look at my posts, you'll probably see they happen at all hours of the day and night: my schedule flips constantly, where I'm awake during the day, then awake at night, etc.



Your work ethic and general philosophy described mine to an exacting degree...that is, until I almost died 3 months ago because of it. 

Therein lies the rub: Though we believe we are, we are not invincible. Though we work seemingly super human hours, it can kill us. Literally.

The week before I ended up in ER I was on a weekend surf trip surfing 3-4 times a day for 2-4 hour stretches [trust me, most dudes wouldn't be able to hang. Surfing is a very physical sport that beats your body up]. In other words, I looked to be in great shape. Which is what the doctors told me when I walked into the ER, as they were bent on sending me home, convinced it must be something minor based on how well I "looked".

17 days later I hadn't yet left the hospital over what I thought was going to be a routine trip. Again, that's 17 days later, after facing morbid pain for days on end, after nearly dying, after saying my goodbyes [just in case] to my wife as the medical crew rushed me into emergency surgery, after facing my own mortality head on decades before I thought I'd need to. Finally, after going through a living fucking hell, I was released from the hospital with a new found respect for the unknown...for the day-to-day uncertainty we call life.

See, the day before I decided to get checked out at the ER, I felt GREAT, I felt FANTASTIC. That's how fast life can turns on us, and when we least expect it.

Point is: Living that lifestyle may kill you, literally, and when you least expect it. You may wear it like a badge of perseverance now, but the moment you're looking into your wife's terrified and crying eyes wondering if that's the last time you'll ever see her, that's the moment you'll wish you could take it all back. That's the moment you'll realize what a bunch of worthless bullshit it all was to push yourself *that* hard.

I still work harder than most...but I no longer put my life in danger over my creative goals. Fuck that. Life is really a lot shorter than your body-and-mind will admit to you. But no, YOU are different, right? YOU are the exception to the rule, yes? You've trained your body-and-mind. I'm here to tell you that that's flat out BULLSHIT.

I have my fingers crossed for you, dude. You're a ticking time-bomb. Just remember...I warned you. It's all fun and games til it ain't. Believe it or not, it is possible to scale back to a non-insane work load and still find huge success. I'm in a pretty kick-ass spot at the moment.

Imagine your wife and kids viewing your body in a pretty casket soon to be lowered into the earth and covered with so much soil to rest for eternity...that's what is at stake here. Believe it or not. 

Now, for the inevitable question you may want to think about long after you've finished reading this: What do your wife and kids truly mean to you?


----------



## nikolas

I just want to say that this is an inspirational thread for me. I have done 12 and 20 hour days working before, but not on a daily bases. I also fool around a lot at times! But I guess this is one more reason to work harder!

And the sketches sound brilliant Mike! Congrats on everything!


----------



## kid-surf

I'll add: I've done 72 hours straight through, with only piss breaks, more than once. Never again...


----------



## nikolas

Wow kid! Yikes man! Nope, never done that, never... I just realised that if I didn't sleep I would function acceptably and slept for a few hours... :-/


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

kid-surf -

I know your warning comes from a good place. Might be a tad presumptuous, though, especially the part about how I should re-examine my responsibilities as a husband and father.

But I'll say this: I know my limitations. I've hit the wall enough times to know where it is, and I notice with each year the wall gets a little closer and I have to scale back. Coming from a medical family, I'm all too familiar with the myriad health pitfalls which lie before us.

There's also another truth: my wife knows who I am; she knows what I'm like, and she supports my process. But if she feels I'm working too hard, or needing a break I'm not taking, she's the first one to say it - with eyes that let me know it's probably not a suggestion, and she's usually right. But if I capped off tomorrow doing what I loved, she'd have no more regrets than I would. 


But let's not overstate the matter, shall we? 12 hour days sitting on one's ass writing music is not the same as 12 hours surfing. And most people do an 8-hour work day, plus 4 hours of elective stuff, staring at glowing rectangles of all sorts. I just take most of the time people spend watching the news, or some television show, or surfing the internet, and spending it woodshedding. And there seems to be plenty of time left over to contribute fully to a marriage and partake in the rest of what life has to offer, so I'm not super-motivated to make broad, sweeping lifestyle changes, I confess. Those insane no-sleep days are fewer and farther between these days; fine with me. But I'll do them before I drop the ball on a project.

In any case, thanks for sharing your story. Glad you're still with us!


_Mike


----------



## kid-surf

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

At the end of the 2nd day your mind is floating through this magical daze...you actually begin to feel euphoric, like you're high on ecstasy. And you'll smile a lot, and for no good reason, and everything is very funny, even when it shouldn't be. But toward the end of the 3rd day you'll likely 'crash', hard. You'll then be falling asleep with your with your fingers on the piano/controller, playback rolling way past your spot...suddenly writing slows to a crawl...suddenly it's all a wash of white noise and you no longer have any sense of whether or not this is even music. Suddenly it's all very pathetic. And maybe you're even starting to see tiny elf people out of the corners of your eyes.

But I don't drink coffee (anymore) or snort lines of coke off strippers tits (anymore), so that may make a differeò¦<   ÉÀÐ¦<   ÉÀÑ¦<   ÉÀÒ¦<   ÉÀÓ¦<   ÉÀÔ¦<   ÉÀÕ¦<   ÉÀÖ¦<   ÉÀ×¦<   ÉÀØ¦<   ÉÀÙ¦<   ÉÀÚ¦<   ÉÀÛ¦<   ÉÀÜ¦<   ÉÀÝ¦<   ÉÀÞ¦<   ÉÀß¦<   ÉÀà¦<   ÉÀá¦<   ÉÀâ¦<   ÉÀã¦<   ÉÀä¦<   ÉÀå¦<   ÉÀæ¦<   ÉÀç¦<   ÉÀè¦<   ÉÀé¦<   ÉÀê¦<   ÉÀë¦<   ÉÀì¦<   ÉÀí¦<   ÉÀî¦<   ÉÀï¦<


----------



## synergy543

Kid, you've got your story. 
No need to struggle any longer.
Write it!


----------



## kid-surf

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

Mike,

I have no issue with 12 hour work days, I still do that. My warning is aimed at the idea that you only sleep when you're tired and the idea that you push yourself to the very threshold...as a rule.

Dude, you sound just like I did before this all happened to me. Yes, I was certain I knew where my threshold was...that is, until I realized that I didn't know what was going on inside my body, how could I? The fact that there are brain surgeons in my family...that didn't matter much once I was flat on my back [though I did get extra fancy care once I was]. There's no doctor who would recommend the brutal lifestyle some of us have chosen to live.

If I'm coming across presumptuous, I'm ok with that, because you're right, it's coming from a good place. And if I sugar coated the message you'd forget about it ten minutes from now.

...Perhaps it's one of those things, we cannot truly decipher the gravity of it all until we are facing that situation ourselves. I know I wouldn't have reevaluated my workload had some guy on the internet typed this admonition. 



> There's also another truth: my wife knows who I am; she knows what I'm like, and she supports my process. But if she feels I'm working too hard, or needing a break I'm not taking, she's the first one to say it - with eyes that let me know it's probably not a suggestion, and she's usually right. But if I capped off tomorrow doing what I loved, she'd have no more regrets than I would.



Exactly my story. But that's only because you both are convinced nothing bad will happen. Like my wife and myself, we thought we both understood where my threshold was. Fact is, turned out that neither of us possessed that godlike intuition. The reality is that your wife and child would absolutely have regrets "if" the shoe dropped. It's easy to toss words around when it's regarded as a hypothetical impossibility...is all. You'd maybe be very surprised how little your art means to you when facing the idea, head on, of leaving those, who you dearly love, high and dry. They may be equally as surprised to learn that. Life is illusive that way...

I sincerely hope you never face what I faced, it's a very startling and emasculating feeling to realize, and ultimately come to terms with the fact that you are *wrong* about what you can physically handle...and that now it's too late to take any of it back...and that now your wife can no longer count on you to be her rock...that you are helpless to even care for yourself...and that now you may die because of it [nevermind the morbid pain I spoke of]. There is a tremendous guilt in that. I hope you never face that.

I'm not making any judgment, merely sharing my story as someone who used to push myself as hard as you do now, and I'm being real about it all. This is an issue few talk about. It killed Kamen. All is cool so long as you're not the guy taken down by it. 

Something to consider, is all...

Thanks for the well wishes!

Best,

Jay

Sorry for the OT

-BACK TO TOPIC-


----------



## kid-surf

synergy543 @ Fri Mar 19 said:


> Kid, you've got your story.
> No need to struggle any longer.
> Write it!



Whatta ya' mean? Not totally following?


----------



## synergy543

kid-surf @ Fri Mar 19 said:


> Whatta ya' mean? Not totally following?


Kid, your dramatic description would make the basis of a good story! - based on your own life. The struggle between glorious aspirations and reality. The fall, surviving in Tinseltown and facing drastic lifestyle choices. Reflections and wisdom gained - and trying to share your enlightenment with others who don't quite see. Sort of a modern day "Its a Wonderful Life".

Maybe not the style of story you've described before, but it contains character issues than many people can relate to or would find intriguing (a composer/surfer/writer) A lot of inspiring material there. Particularly given all the changes the economy has wrought upon people's lives and the choices they must face themselves makes it an interesting time for a reflective character story.

And to keep the thread on topic, you could have Mike score this. :wink:


----------



## kid-surf

Haha! While, my life may make for some great stories, I'm not sure it would make for a great "movie". Unless the movie was "this" big [small]...I dunno maybe it'd make for a great filmstrip. :D

"(a composer/surfer/writer)"

Hey now...you forgot male model... 

Honestly, it's too hard in this climate to make small movies, IMO. I believe it's probably easier to get people interested in spending 30-100 Mil on flicks with big set-pieces - they want the big kill. Though I love me some character driven stories too...which is why I'm trying to get this tv show off the ground [while simultaneously writing the big set-piece flick].

Thanks for the thoughts, man!

Nice music, Mike! Best of luck out there...


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

I came across this recording while I was cleaning a drive tonight. Based on the dodgy v.i. template, I'm guessing it's several years old - likely a demo for this Sony thing that never got recorded.

I'm posting it for a very specific reason, which is that it is an extremely simple piece - it has basically only two subjects/motifs, repeated for 4 minutes. We're living in a time where repetition and ostinato are proffered as substitutes for actual musical structure and development, when the truth is there are very few composers who can build entire scores on that and make them genuinely effective. And there are a couple, to be sure.

But despite its simplicity, the piece undergoes continual development both harmonically and orchestrationally, moving inexorably towards a final statement. And so, irrespective of the overall quality of the piece (it's only "so-so" in my opinion) what I think it _does_ do is show that a piece doesn't have to be drowning in ambient complexity to stay fresh and interesting, take the listener on a journey, and move purposefully, dramatically, to a single satisfying conclusion. 

Forgive the poor quality of the template. God only knows what libraries I was using back then.


Sony Demo Thing


_Mike


----------



## George Caplan

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*



kid-surf @ Fri Mar 19 said:


> mverta @ Fri Jan 15 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Point is: Living that lifestyle may kill you, literally, and when you least expect it.
Click to expand...


very nice music mike verta. life style is very unlikely to have caused your condition. happens all the time. you'll get over it. seen it tons of times over the years to varying degrees of outcome.


----------



## mixolydian

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*



mverta @ Wed Mar 24 said:


> Forgive the poor quality of the template. God only knows what libraries I was using back then.
> 
> 
> Sony Demo Thing


Wow, great piece of music. =o


----------



## Nathan Allen Pinard

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

I can't compose for more than 5 hours or so without losing it, but I can mix and edit for-e-ver.


----------



## synthetic

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*



mverta @ Wed Mar 24 said:


> I'm posting it for a very specific reason, which is that it is an extremely simple piece - it has basically only two subjects/motifs, repeated for 4 minutes. We're living in a time where repetition and ostinato are proffered as substitutes for actual musical structure and development, when the truth is there are very few composers who can build entire scores on that and make them genuinely effective. And there are a couple, to be sure.
> 
> But despite its simplicity, the piece undergoes continual development both harmonically and orchestrationally, moving inexorably towards a final statement. And so, irrespective of the overall quality of the piece (it's only "so-so" in my opinion) what I think it _does_ do is show that a piece doesn't have to be drowning in ambient complexity to stay fresh and interesting, take the listener on a journey, and move purposefully, dramatically, to a single satisfying conclusion.



Very good composition as always. I think it neatly illustrates the difference between composing with pencil and paper versus playing into a sequencer. The former has gone out of style and I think I can hear the difference in the result.


----------



## raweber

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*



> The Star Wars idiom, like all these sketch pieces, almost always represents what I can do off the top of my head, without needing outside reference support.



To kind of pull this thread back onto the original topic, Mike, do mind writing a little about your writing process. For these "simple" sketches, you obviously can't play all the orchestral parts in at the same time, but if you're not writing anything down ahead of time, how do you keep track of where you are and what comes next?

From my own experience, if I'm composing a piece "off the top of my head" that isn't just solo piano, I'll do a section at a time, laying down the bare bones, and then coming back later and fleshing them out. Of course, in my case I have to go back and re-record everything once the piece is written because what I have so far is just a sketch. (I also do a lot of MIDI after the fact - control moves I play in live are never satisfying to me - just the opposite of many composers/renderers that I respect.)

Thanks, and I really enjoyed the pieces.

p.s. If I were married to Danica McKellar, I know that I also would be doing everything necessary to keep her happy! Congrats on the upcoming addition! :mrgreen:


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

**First post updated...**

So, I spent all day Thursday going through the samples in my new libraries, looking for cool stuff, and then wrote this little piece yesterday to take advantage of them. I forgot how much fun programming percussion stuff can be!

Mission Improbable


_Mike


----------



## germancomponist

Have you cutted the high frequencies a little bit?

Hey, sounds very cool, a fine arranging! And the end, superb! 

Gunther


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

No, you mean it sounds muffled to you?

_Mike


----------



## germancomponist

Maybe its only because I have listend to other mixes 5 min ago where there were more highs in it ( used the Spl Vitalizer).... .


----------



## requiem_aeternam7

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*



mverta @ Sat Apr 03 said:


> No, you mean it sounds muffled to you?
> 
> _Mike



Amazing stuff Mike. Can you please tell everything you used in this one? (libraries)


----------



## bryla

Funny thing - and scary thing - is that he'll probably mention all the regular stuff that everyone has - I remember he mentioned everything he used, and it was just the plain ones. It really proves that the writing is important


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

Thanks guys.... yes it's the identical palette I've described before, with the edition of Stormdrum 2, the Strawberry Extended Electric Guitar processed through Guitar Rig 4, and a little bit of Xpand synth plug-in. 


_Mike


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

Mike, you do know you're permitted to use new threads?


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

I like having all the pieces together at the very top of the thread in the first post - makes it easier to find everything!


_Mike


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

a mini website in a website.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

Well otherwise things get lost. The new piece I posted this morning is already buried on an earlier page. I can't be the only one who checks in on threads and hits "last."  Anyway, so by putting today's piece along with the others at the top, you never have to go looking for it.


_Mike


----------



## synthetic

Like the Mission Improbable. It sounds, for lack of a better word, more "modern" than a lot of your other stuff, as much as that must make you groan.  

Quick orchestration question: the high accents around 1:19, what's going on there? That's a sound I can never quite nail. Thanks.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

No, the word "modern" doesn't make me groan; it was intentional. 

The effect at 1:19 is sort of pseduo-Penderecki, but instead of non-standard notational notes like, "highest note possible," I'm somewhat picky about exactly which notes the high woods and strings are using. Generally, each instrument is playing a descending grace-note figure which spans a minor 9th. The parts are clustered, usually one or two chromatic steps around a dominant note. I'll put whatever instrument (usually the piccolo) on the dominant tone, and at least one other biting instrument at the octave to make it sing, and then the remaining instruments clustered around that to blur the note itself, so you get the _impression_ of a focused note, but still the brutality of a cluster without it being mud. Add some metal percussion (in this case anvil and scraped tam-tam), chimes and piano and you've got a fairly aggressive accent. Effective cluster writing is an art unto itself - it can quickly degenerate into random noise which while dissonant, doesn't seem to have any bite. Herrmann was a God of good cluster writing; I've studied much of his work.


_Mike


----------



## Olias

Man, the guitar part in Mission Improbable is HOT! It perfectly walks the line between totally organized and sounding like it's improvised.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

Thank you. I'm not sure what to do next; I was thinking maybe an "African Hope" thing or one of those "Van Helsing" type of pieces - something to get some choir time on.


_Mike


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

**First post updated...**


Lieutenant America


_Mike


----------



## Colin O'Malley

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

I reeeally dig this, Mike. Seriously commanding brass writing. Lt. America will be very happy and be able to run faster when he hears it. 

Colin


----------



## handz

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

Hi Mike - very nice piece! Mock up have reserves but i like the composition!


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

Yes I'm afraid I've sort of maxxed out my mock-up palette for now. I guess I could always add new sounds, but I think I can get the music to "feel" as close as I need it to, vibe-wise. I dunno; I just get burned out on the tweaking-samples-and-EQ-and-template thing a lot. 

And thanks for the compliments, guys. Means a lot!

_Mike


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

**First post updated...**


Commander America


_Mike


----------



## germancomponist

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*

I can`t tell you how much I like your "Sketches", Mike! 

Sounds great!


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - 2 New Pieces 6/10-11*

Always appreciated... I have some thoughts on the whole issue of posting music like this, but I want to watch the weekend's response first...

_Mike


----------



## hbuus

I enjoy listening to your sketches, Mike.
It's interesting to hear what you come up with during your speed writing sessions.
Plus it's fascinating for me to see how you can output such quality music at a rapid tempo.

Best,
Henrik


----------



## Blackster

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - 2 New Pieces 6/10-11*

Mike, I'm really impressed by your orchestration skills!! Really great!! o=<


----------



## Tanuj Tiku

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - 2 New Pieces 6/10-11*

Hey Mike,


Sounds great! Great orchestration as usual. I thought that Commander America had lot of clarity compared to the first one. Lieutenant America was good too - but some how either the sample performance or the orchestration (unlikely) was not clear.

Commander America is great! I actually wanted to listen to more - it was too short. 


Mike, have you thought of upgrading your samples with whats out now on the market? Your brass tone is amazing but the articulations are letting you down as far as sample performance is concerned.


Thanks for sharing!


Tanuj.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - 2 New Pieces 6/10-11*

Upgrading my samples... Man, get me off this friggin' ride, ya know? This reminds me of the 80's where there was new synth gear to have every day, only it meant filling up rooms with Apache A-Frame stands and physical keyboards.

It seems like you could basically be constantly upgrading, and for me, it just takes forever to finally get the whole palette to sound okay together. Every time I change samples, I'm back to square one. And my motivation is low because I personally feel like I'm getting as much emotional control as I'd ever get out of vi anyway, compared to live stuff.

Regarding the orchestration differences between Commander/Lieutenant: you're absolutely right they represent different levels of density, and while both are totally common for live performance, it's true the dense stuff tends to sound muddy or something when done in vi. Commander is much more French-School; it's like the more the samples don't have to interact with each other, but can be heard on their own, the more perceived clarity there is. That's obviously a huge, missing ingredient in vi - the instruments don't affect each other.

But I wonder what you're referring to in the articulations exactly - especially in brass - that bothers you; can you be more specific? All my instruments have key switches for all the basic articulations; they're all modwheel controlled for volume/dynamic cross-fading, etc. Maybe you can give me a particular time in the pieces where you can hear it failing?


Thanks again, everyone, for the comments and kind words!


_Mike


----------



## George Caplan

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - 2 New Pieces 6/10-11*

captain america is super.


----------



## Tanuj Tiku

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - 2 New Pieces 6/10-11*

I know what you mean about upgrading samples. I remember you once saying that you use Project Sam - since then , there is Fanfare trumpets and epic horns from Vienna (you may have this already) - that have lot of good articulations.


Sam sounds really great but there is no legato and it has a bit of a slag sometimes. 

For example - in Captain America - the brass part starting 00:32 - sounds really good but the first two notes are not as pronouced - I mean, its just general stuff like that for me personally - you may be happy with this. 

So its like - you have this brilliant tone and great pallette but the articulations sometimes make the compromise.

You are right in saying that the performance still has the emotional quality.

Being in LA, I am sure you have access to custom libraries as well. I heard this demo by Thomas Bergersen which had amazing brass and the composition was really good too - I immediately fell in love with the piece - just like I really liked what you had done live with Warner Bros. thing on your web site. The difference was Thomas's msuic was virtual and the performance was extremely convincing. 

So I was just thinking - you know- you have these great musical chops too - so what if you upgraded your samples and this will only increase your emotional quality.

I have little experience with live music but I can understand how you feel about VI's after having worked with big orchestras. 


So I do think your music can sound more realistic in certain ways. This is however completely a Sample related thing - has little to do with composition/orchestration - which is always A-grade from you!


Best,

Tanuj.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - 2 New Pieces 6/10-11*

I certainly can't argue with you that there are always ways to improve our vi - and I'm sure if I spent more time performing the parts, I could probably gain a point or two, but I rarely play a phrase or part more than a couple times each, since they're just sketches...

Incidentally my brass is a layer of SAM, VI, and a kiss of The Trumpet. I'm gonna get that Trombone one and see if it adds the nice little touch the Trumpet one does. I hope they do a Horn.


In any case, time to move on with more music. I saw this article about a teenage girl who tried to circumnavigate the globe and got her ass handed to her in the Indian Ocean the other day; so I think I'm going to write a maritime-type piece this weekend.


_Mike


----------



## Tanuj Tiku

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - 2 New Pieces 6/10-11*

Mike, 

The Trombone is amazing. I checked it out over the weekend at my friends studio - its just like the trumpet if not better.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 6/14**

**First post updated...**


Abby vs. The Sea


_Mike


----------



## Severian

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 6/14**



mverta @ Mon Jun 14 said:


> **First post updated...**
> 
> 
> Abby vs. The Sea
> 
> 
> _Mike



Wow. Your best yet. Just about most originally melodic piece I've heard from you. Congrats great job, awesome moving and inspired melodies. Perhaps you should contact Abby (is that the real girl's name?) and show her what she inspired. The only thing mockup wise (as opposed to composition wise) I feel is starting to let you down are the strings, are you still on SISS? Time for hollywood or lass methinks.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 6/14**

Thanks for the kind words; glad you enjoyed it. Strings-wise, my issue is that my system is totally maxxed out. I can't afford any more plug-ins in the chain, and my strings, etc. are hosted externally on Gigas! Plus, maybe I have to have more of a listen, but I'm not feeling the love for LASS or HS as much as perhaps I should?


_Mike


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 6/14**

Strings are mostly vsl, now, actually. I've gone back and forth over the years. I have an instance of VE running with some Apassionata, as well as some brass.


_Mike


----------



## synergy543

Mike, your orchestration is really marvelous. The overall ambience is different than say, Land of the Light on Ultraman CD (which is extremely good), and I'd take issue more with the ambience than the strings. The strings on Ultraman sound quite good and the Ultraman ambience balance overall is much closer to your live recorded work. 

Nevertheless, stunning work for overnight, and the orchestration far overshadows these other little peccadillos. You've just set our expectation levels so high...


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 6/14**

Thank you!

Oh, and _Ultraman_ was mixed by Shawn Murphy. 


He's better than I am. 


_Mike


----------



## WillMah Gold

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 6/14**

Abby vs. The Sea: :shock: Wow, love it! Great stuff!


----------



## handz

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 6/14**

Abby is great! Congrats! Very nice piece in style that I like most. 
What is the brass?


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 6/14**

Thank you! Brass is a layer of VSL, SI, and a kiss of The Trumpet. When I say layer, I mean literally layered.

_Mike


----------



## Severian

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 6/14**

Mike that's the whole point is the reason Lass and HS might not sound that great to you is because it's not YOU using them. For a guy that can make VSL strings sound almost as good as Lass/HS, I think those libraries in YOUR hands will put your music on another level. You really should at least try them out though I agree and see what you're saying that since you're running at full tilt, a single new library addition requires an additional expense of a new computer just to run it (and in HS's case, perhaps one with expensive SSD drive(s))

I don't know, I just personally think you owe it to yourself to be at the cutting edge. You said "get me out of this friggin race" and I agree, but at the same time you probably haven't made a MAJOR library purchase in a long time. You're mostly using the same giga stuff you've used for years aren't you? The Trumpet sounds like the only major/recent purchase you've made so I really think you should try one of those libs out!


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 6/14**

I can relate to this. When you have invested a lot of time with a certain library, you are throwing that away when making the switch. So you have to weigh this carefully. My advice to anyone would be to stick with the library you bought for at least 3 years. Knowing well your library is much more valuable than buying the latest products all the time.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 6/14**

Interesting points all around... as it happens, I do have another Mac sitting around, which I'm sure could handle hosting more samples. I've never gone down this route - what is the connection between systems, ethernet?

_Mike


----------



## JBacal

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 6/14**

Very fine work as always Mike. I particularly enjoyed the darker second half of Abby vs The sea.

Best,
Jay


----------



## OvaltineJenkins

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 6/14**

Mike, I really enjoyed listening to your sketches! Makes me want to write some cool music, and study a heck of a lot harder.

As a sidenote, I was happy to see that I am not the only one in the world who has a crazy, yet perfectly sane, sleep schedule: retire only when tired, arise only when fully rested. I rotate forward (never backwards), and come full-circle every 1-1.5 months or so. One thing I dislike about it is occasionally having to drag my butt outta bed at 2am body-clock-time to go to some appointment in the real world. Part of me wants to join the rest of the world, but if I try to go to bed before I'm tired, I just lie in bed awake for hours bored...I'd much rather be up doing fun/productive stuff!

Anyway, I look forward to hearing more--thanks for sharing!

Sincerely,

Bud Dickman

--Posted 2:07am MST, 7:07pm BCT (body-clock-time)


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 6/14**

Thank you, Mr. Dickman; great show as always.

Regular schedules: who needs 'em?

Best,

_Mike


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 6/14**

**First post updated...**

Two weeks ago, our first child was born - a baby boy. Nearly every morning since, I've been holding him, asleep on my chest, as the sun rises majestically over the mountain tops - welcoming not only each new day, but for him, a lifetime of adventures ahead...

The Son at Dawn


_Mike


----------



## germancomponist

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 9/25**

Congratulations, Mike & family! 

I remember when our first child was born, oh what is this a great time.... .

And this piece is a very nice composition, so well arranged and sounding! 
And, your reverb settings are so well done, Mr.! o-[][]-o


----------



## fido94

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 9/25**

beautiful work as always, Mike.
Congratulations on the new baby.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 9/25**

Thank you! Yes, they're Apassionatas with a touch of a Symphobia patch layered with the celli and basses. 

_Mike


----------



## ChrisAxia

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 9/25**

Congratulations Mike!

That's a really lovely piece (as always!). The reverb sounds very nice to my ears.

~Chris


----------



## Tanuj Tiku

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 9/25**

Hey Mike,

Sounds really good. I like how its not very child like with celeste etc just because its for a child. 

Very mature writing and possibly one of your more realistic sounding pieces.


I dint find it to be too dry - certainly not the TV sound. Thats a bit more drier I think. May be you have already added some reverb since.


Post more more!!!


Tanuj.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 9/25**

Actually, that's the original mix... I didn't want to be too hasty adding reverb. There's essentially no tail, just early reflections dictating depth...

I'll post more; I'm just not getting a ton of sleep yet  He's worth every second, though 


_Mike


----------



## germancomponist

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 9/25**



mverta @ Sun Sep 26 said:


> ... There's essentially no tail, just early reflections dictating depth...



...and this sounds very good to my ears. o/~


----------



## gmet

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 9/25**

Great sketches Mike,

What horns are you using at 00:44 ('Son at Dawn' cue)?

Justin


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 9/25**

Thank you! The horns are a blend between two VSL series - HO-8 and the original HO-4.

_Mike


----------



## synergy543

Very warm and touching writing Mike. Enjoy the Kodachrome moments too, as they fly by so quickly. By two years, he'll be challenging you and questioning your writing.

Do you know the Poulenc piece "L' Histoire de Babar"? Apparently his daughter got tired of what he was playing and put Babar on the piano and said "play this". And so he did. Ignoring the morals of the story, the music is great for people big and small.

Greg


----------



## hbuus

Grats on becoming a dad, Mike.
And I love the piece...tender and beautiful.
 
Best,
Henrik


----------



## adg21

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 9/25**

Hi Mike, 

I've really enjoyed listening to your sketches. really great stuff. 

I just had a brief question - and I apologize if this is diverting away from the music again - but with regards to your work - you say you train a lot. As a young composer I've always found it difficult to find enough time (I wish I had more). I can see how many people work around this by doing multiple jobs (music jobs, teaching, or otherwise), but where training is something I couldn't get paid for, I just wonder how you manage to spend so much time on it. Is it just as you say - long hours? Or is training (directly) integrated into your job? Do you mind if I ask - and I hope this doesn;t seem too prying - do you work mostly freelance or for a company?


@ Fri Jan 15 said:


> Tons of stuff; 12+ hours almost every day. Ear training, speed writing, listening/analyzing, and of course writing, writing, writing. In some ways, I treat my career like a ship that's taking on water, and the holes in the bow are the weaknesses in my skillset - I rush to plug them as fast as I can.
> _Mike


this was the quote I was particularly interested in. 'Ear training, speed writing, listening/analyzing' + I can see you enjoy arranging/sequencing existing music (i.e. star wars). I guess, as someone young with no money, I imagine that a lot of my time should be spent trying to write for things where I will be getting paid (or working towards that). Of course I want to better myself all the time, learn from past masters, study, analyze, speed writing, orchestration exercises etc but I'd like to know how you balance out training with making a living sustainably.

Thanks


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 9/25**

It's not at all prying, and it's a question I feel truly deserves an in-depth answer, which I want to prepare. It touches on a couple of things I feel very passionately about. You didn't sign your post; may I ask your name?


_Mike


----------



## adg21

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 9/25**

Ah sorry it's Alan, I need to make a signature...


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 9/25**

Here you go, Alan (and anyone else interested in the topic of training vs. working) -

This is a forum where we listen to things a lot, so I decided to record my answer - it allowed me to go into more depth about what you've asked; something I think is really important for us to consider as working musicians...

Training vs. Working


Best,

_Mike


----------



## Rob

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 9/25**

thanks for taking the time to do this, Mike...


----------



## Hannes_F

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 9/25**



mverta @ Mon Sep 27 said:


> This is a forum where we listen to things a lot, so I decided to record my answer - it allowed me to go into more depth about what you've asked; something I think is really important for us to consider as working musicians...
> 
> Training vs. Working



Very cool, essential. Thanks 8)


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 9/25**

Wow, quite a symphonic answer! Very interesting Mike. Thanks for sharing your experience. Interesting the part about composers who starts repeating themselves after a while for the various reasons.

Next time could you reply in a 3D video please? :wink:


----------



## adg21

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 9/25**



mverta @ Mon Sep 27 said:


> Here you go, Alan (and anyone else interested in the topic of training vs. working) -
> 
> This is a forum where we listen to things a lot, so I decided to record my answer - it allowed me to go into more depth about what you've asked; something I think is really important for us to consider as working musicians...
> 
> Training vs. Working
> 
> 
> Best,
> 
> _Mike



Mike, very nice, I couldn't have hoped for a deeper and more concise answer than that, really interesting. I also really think that more people should listen to this - maybe we should retopic it in 'working in the industry'? (I will if you give me go ahead).

Anyhow thanks for your generous answer, you've helped me to think a bit more about what I'm doing and where I'm going. 

Cheers

Alan


----------



## synergy543

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 9/25**



mverta @ Mon Sep 27 said:


> This is a forum where we listen to things a lot, so I decided to record my answer - it allowed me to go into more depth about what you've asked; something I think is really important for us to consider as working musicians...
> 
> Training vs. Working


Mike that was very refreshing and inspiring to listen to. You've achieved a balance that we each need to find for ourselves. It will serve you well in your adventure as a dad too.

Thank you for sharing,

Greg


----------



## poseur

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 9/25**

as goes the pedagogical treatise, mike;
i recognise that the question posed to you was rooted in a young composer's
desire for guidance, focussed upon the area of craft-work.

but, there's much of your career/philosophical perspective, there,
with which i do not agree, with which i haven't ever agreed,
but which you seem to present as if it were "factual",
as if we might presume it were some kind of consensus amongst film-composers.

in the area of 6m, or so, you've already repeated the importance of making-a-living
doing _whatever_ (in order to make money) many, many times;
for myself, this issue has never been so delineated & divided as the way in which you present it.

in fact:
making music to which i am completely committed,
much of which i continue to remain "attached-to",
regardless of the external goal of it.....
..... thatall lies at the very _*heart*_ (a word which i do not use lightly, here)
of my lifelong love-affair with both music & film,
and as a key component to my own successes (& failures, of course).

while making-a-living is damned important to me,
i'm not willing to sacrifice my intrinsic creative impulse in order to "land" nor keep any job,
nor am i willing to allow these somewhat innocent impulses & feelings
--- what functions as my musical, sonic, story-oriented voice(s), ie the gestalt of my creative perceptions ---
to remain untended, in order to make that living.

fortunately, due to some folks enjoying both my commitment to such and my musical output,
and maybe due to the fact that such focus has not turned me into acting,
with my clients, like an uncommunicative & uncompromising prick?
i continue to compose, and make a very decent living doing it,
and have strong public outlets for my music which is _not_ intended nor conceived for any film.

i may be wrong, and this may not agree w/many others' opinions & approaches, but......
..... this is the way in which i've lived my (somewhat long, moderately successful) 
life as a composer & musician.
i can say that, while not all of my choices have proven grand,
overall, the approach has served me quite well..... even through "hard" times.
i'm nearing 60, and still reaching forward.

so, while this post doesn't pertain precisely to any craft-work, as such
(other than to re-focus upon developing one's own craft-choices in the inherently _creative_ process of composition,
rooted in maintaining a persistently childlike & studiously intuitive musical desire,
which is NOT AT ALL to say "childlike" music),
i can say that i feel strongly that young composers might do well not only to learn what has already been done, re: the study of details, styles, idioms, orch & arr of historical music,
but 
--- maybe more importantly, from my low tower ---
to look intently at what THEY might do, what they'd love to do, what they,
as individuals, might fully and artistically (beyond craft-work) stand behind:
what might be considered their own "voice",
and what might, in the marketplace, come to represent their own personal mark, or brand.

as well, and fwiw:
if the goal is actually scoring for films,
then i don't see how scoring trailers etc. can be considered a "stepping-stone" to such, at all.....
..... and, the royalties for composing/post-licensing for score can certainly be quite healthy,
in and of themselves.

i just don't agree w/skipping over the details of how-to-grow a personalised compositional process,
while aiming composers in the direction of that attitude that says
"compromise until you don't need-to",
which rarely 
--- ¿if ever? --- 
seems to actually result in much original & personally committed creative works.

if this has worked for you, if you're now scoring a rising number of feature-films w/your own voice, etc,
then i could certainly see how & why you might disagree.

but, as far as i can see, these past buncha years?

hollywood scoring is already filled-beyond-the-gills with
a marked density of extremely high-level & deeply professional journeyman-isms;
since there appears to be so much of that,
i prefer still to encourage the willing (& the creatively needy)
to attempt to sit their asses in that very hot seat
that might eventually bring both some level of musical integrity and/or self-dignity,
maybe even bringing something "fresh" and/or idiosyncratic to the screen's table,
maybe even
--- occasionally --- 
garnering themselves some measure of a valuable _personal_ notoriety.

for some cheap, summarising context:
music, and scoring films, are my life..... and, my profession;
it's not a wee game for me, not a hobby, not a pastime.
i've had no easy breaks, no rich relations, no trust funds,
no relatives nor friends "breaking" me into the businesses of both music & film.
i am the breadwinner in my "nuclear"-family;
my wife was forced to retire from her lifelong profession, some yrs ago,
due to a series of work-related physical injuries.

as i said:
i apologise for the digressions,
but felt it was validated & encouraged by your own digressions
within your recorded lecture, vis à vis the actual question(s) posed.

d


----------



## David Story

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 9/25**

Thank you poseur. Your integrity is inspiring, and your musical creativity. Methinks one leads to the other. 
You seem free within the film, much more than constrained. How do you communicate your commitment to music without offending the director?
Maybe it's your career beyond film...


----------



## poseur

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 9/25**



David Story @ Mon Sep 27 said:


> Thank you poseur. Your integrity is inspiring, and your musical creativity. Methinks one leads to the other.



thanks for asking, ds;
i'm thrilled that something positive has sprung from that considered post.


personally, i think it's important 
--- from both the comradely & the pedagogical perspectives ---
to entertain conversation, here, amongst peers,
that focus on the creative aspects of being a composer.....
not merely on the crafty aspects of the "job".

we're (increasingly) not asked to compose, really, but to re-compose, to re-cast
from a selection of pre-established muso-filmic tropes that (in fact) precede us;
in that, it often appears to me that to deny such conversation is to become complicit
in dismissing the study & cultivation of raw "creative" impetus from the process of film-composition,
as so many producers & directors seem to be doing.
hence,
the nature of my response to mv's answer to an _already-craft-centric_ query.

i'm not interested in encouraging any more "trailer"-composers,
if they're not committed --- even internally, cleverly & agendically --- to bringing something to film's table
that might further enrich filmmaking & an audience's feelings-for-film, in general.



David Story @ Mon Sep 27 said:


> You seem free within the film, much more than constrained.


well, none of us is free within the film, as it were; nor am i, naturally.

in a million years, i never could have predicted that i would develop some small reputation
for re-temp-able song-esque scoring.
really!
though my musical background is broad, its focus was never precisely of that nature.

it's important that i create for myself an i_nspiration-ready_ & confident space within which to work;
seems like i take the film on, if i believe that:
a) i can fulfill the filmic-functions i hear as necessary (understand & FEEL the story,
the characters, &/or the visuals: what i may need to "bring forward" and/or "recess"),
b) i understand what might suit the film, sonically, for its intended audience,
and for the director, and (at least),
c) i believe i can fulfill the work within the allotted time- and budget-constraints,
d) believe that i can develop a clear & friendly, mutually beneficial communication w/the director, and at least one other involved principal.

sometimes i fail, of course,
for any of a variety of reasons that might arise within me,
or within the nascent complexity of the post-production process.



David Story @ Mon Sep 27 said:


> How do you communicate your commitment to music without offending the director?
> Maybe it's your career beyond film...


it may be that, occasionally, but..... i've often been surprised by how little the folks who hire me know about my musical career, and:
my agents almost never send to the clients anything other than my scores, so.....

i don't like to offend people, in general.....
i am trying to be helpful, and in that
--- as a guy who has, in fact, produced quite a few music-recordings where some amount of artist-sensitive psychologies often come into-play ---
i don't ever wanna steam-roll over a director's opinions, no matter what:
if we disagree, i continue to try to make my points w/music:
and, again:
sometimes my own first instincts are wrong, and i need to be capable of recognising that,
_fast_.

it seems that i do tend, now,
to work w/directors who already want a certain amount of
individualistic musical "marking" of their films, somehow,
so..... that can be helpful,
but can also prove "dangerous", w/some directors.

hth?

d


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 9/25**

Poseur and David -

I've always thought this idea that making money and having integrity being mutually exclusive was ridiculous. When I was a kid, I told the head of the music department at USC as much when he said the idea of "using music as a form of self-advancement" made him "sick," as he sat there in his tattered corduroy jacket with holes in the sleeves. Of course, his music sucked, so I forgave him, and promptly left the institution.

Even the Dalai Lama concedes we need money in this world. And I'm not sure if you've ever been actually starving, but I have, and I take some measure of pride in the fact that I managed to preserve my own lifelong dedication to music throughout. And I never compromised the quality of the music I was writing.


Well, it takes all kinds, doesn't it? I speak from my own experience, and don't profess to be the model for all mankind. But what's contained in my response is what I'd tell my younger self, and it's from the heart. It's also good advice. Considering my summation, and my personal path, has been about finding ways to focus on my craft, to make the greatest contribution to the art, not the most money, I thought I'd earned some degree of integrity there in the eyes of my moral superiors, but apparently you don't agree. 

That's okay; I appreciate your replies... thanks for listening.

And Alan - sure, feel free to repost it wherever... I'm glad you found it helpful!


Best,

_Mike


----------



## adg21

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 9/25**

Thanks poseur. 



poseur @ Mon Sep 27 said:


> while making-a-living is damned important to me,
> i'm not willing to sacrifice my intrinsic creative impulse in order to "land" nor keep any job,
> nor am i willing to allow these somewhat innocent impulses & feelings
> --- what functions as my musical, sonic, story-oriented voice(s), ie the gestalt of my creative perceptions ---
> to remain untended, in order to make that living.
> d



I just feel I would (forever) be impossibly poor and never move forward if I _didn't_ sometimes sacrifice my intrinsic creative impulses for the sake of a few bob (at least early on in my career don't you think?). 



poseur @ Mon Sep 27 said:


> as well, and fwiw:
> if the goal is actually scoring for films,
> then i don't see how scoring trailers etc. can be considered a "stepping-stone" to such, at all.....
> ..... and, the royalties for composing/post-licensing for score can certainly be quite healthy,
> in and of themselves.



but isn't scoring trailers a proven stepping stone for some composers - that some composers benefit directly (creatively, career-wise) from doing them?



poseur @ Mon Sep 27 said:


> hollywood scoring is already filled-beyond-the-gills with
> a marked density of extremely high-level & deeply professional journeyman-isms;
> since there appears to be so much of that,
> i prefer still to encourage the willing (& the creatively needy)
> to attempt to sit their asses in that very hot seat
> that might eventually bring both some level of musical integrity and/or self-dignity,
> maybe even bringing something "fresh" and/or idiosyncratic to the screen's table,
> maybe even
> --- occasionally ---
> garnering themselves some measure of a valuable personal notoriety.



I completely agree with you about finding your own voice and working towards what it is you truly want to do, but I don't see how I could possibly walk away from jobs because they potentially compromise my musical integrity and/or self-dignity (if the project requires it/ or filmmaker wants me to do something I don't see eye-to-eye with)(and even if it means scoring soft porn :lol: ), I just feel it would only have a negative impact my career and self-esteem, that I would never move forward, and that I would only have myself to blame for passing up opportunities.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 9/25**

Alan -

Obviously, I agree with you. Doing jobs which pay doesn't mean doing substandard work, or work which isn't "pure" or doesn't have "integrity." A gig is a gig; what you bring to it musically is up to you, but the fact that it pays, and may not be the most exciting job in the world has absolutely no bearing on your worth as a person or a musician. Always do your best and The Craft will honor you. It's when you compromise your work that you compromise your soul, and this just isn't necessary.


_Mike

P.S. @ Narval about "Son at Dawn": Always interesting to hear interpretations of one's "poetry" as you mention. The 4th interval/5th interval development was absolutely intentional. The rest came from "that place..."


----------



## poseur

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 9/25**



mverta @ Mon Sep 27 said:


> Poseur and David -
> 
> I've always thought this idea that making money and having integrity being mutually exclusive was ridiculous.


we agree, then!
hand-in-glove, i say..... all the way. when pòÝ   è¦ìÝ   è¦íÝ   è¦îÝ   è¦ïÝ   è¦ðÝ   è¦ñÝ   è¦òÝ   è¦óÝ   è¦ôÝ   è¦õÝ   è¦öÝ   è¦÷Ý   è¦øÝ   è¦ùÝ   è¦úÝ   è¦ûÝ   è¦üÝ   è¦ýÝ   è¦þÞ   è¦ÿÞ   è§ Þ   è§Þ   è§Þ   è§Þ   è§Þ   è§Þ   è§Þ   è§Þ   è§Þ   è§	Þ   è§
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----------



## poseur

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 9/25**



adg21 @ Mon Sep 27 said:


> I just feel I would (forever) be impossibly poor and never move forward if I _didn't_ sometimes sacrifice my intrinsic creative impulses for the sake of a few bob (at least early on in my career don't you think?).




i think it's important to make a few bob, yes.....
but, there are gradations to "sacrifice", of course.....
it's not set in stone, not b&w, and may be different for you than me.

however:
if you pursue trailers & whatnot to the extent that you might,
by default &/or due to the limitations that the division of/investment of time
is likely to impose upon you,
either forcing you to ignore or deny the studying,
the working-on & the cultivation of your intrinsic, individual creative impulses?
well;
in my mind, that could easily lead to something more like a burnt offering than a simple sacrifice.

dude?
creative impulses, at our cores, require work:
steady, industrious attention, and..... work.
usually, i'd say --- in most cases.
i'm not talking about craft, here,
though craft can clearly be completely absorbed-in/inextricably-linked-to the creative process.





adg21 @ Mon Sep 27 said:


> but isn't scoring trailers a proven stepping stone for some composers - that some composers benefit directly (creatively, career-wise) from doing them?


some?
maybe; sure, there must be a few folks who have done so.
but, it's no-one i know, other than maybe one very talented dude.

here are some people whom i know, personally,
who did not use composing for trailers as a stepping-stone to their film-careers:
howard shore
elmer bernstein (rip)
hans zimmer
harry gregson-williams
carter burwell
ryuichi sakamoto
jon brion
mark isham
cliff martinez
theodore shapiro
lyle workman
etc etc etc







adg21 @ Mon Sep 27 said:


> I completely agree with you about finding your own voice and working towards what it is you truly want to do, but I don't see how I could possibly walk away from jobs because they potentially compromise my musical integrity and/or self-dignity (if the project requires it/ or filmmaker wants me to do something I don't see eye-to-eye with)(and even if it means scoring soft porn :lol: ), I just feel it would only have a negative impact my career and self-esteem, that I would never move forward, and that I would only have myself to blame for passing up opportunities.



again, you're looking at this from a severely black v. white perspective;
the pursuit of art is tricky;
trickier, still, is the pursuit of art as a financially-sustaining career.

you'll need to choose for yourself, really.
some things will be worth doing;
other things will be worth NOT doing.
everything, there, is a very personal choice.

some folks can strap their creative agenda to ANY job;
others get completely waylaid by byways & side-long paths.

if, however,
the plants & flowers in the garden of your own idiosyncratic creativity
go untended for too long, 
they will likely die.

but, conversely / taking the narcissistic artist's POV?
if, otoh, you over-water the vivacious inhabitants of that garden, well:
they're also likely to die.

you choose, when such choices are necessary;
there's certainly more possibilities offered by the middle-grounds
than there are by the 2 polar extremes.

and, nothing is written in b&w, but.....
..... your time on this planet is limited, for sure,
as it is for all of us.....
how you divide your unspecified allotment of time is really up to you.
i think, maybe.

d


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 9/25**



poseur @ Mon Sep 27 said:


> most of what i've said, here, was in hopes of dissuading young composers
> from focussing entirely upon craft & what we know think of as film-scoring professionalism,
> which i clearly feel has taken a huge-assed bite out of the realities of individualistic creative processes:



Well, I could argue that what young composers could use _most_ is some freakin' craft, which I think gives us a huge-assed advantage at our chances to hone truly individual creative processes... but that'd just be arguing. I know we agree that the more you can do, the more you can choose to do.


_Mike


----------



## poseur

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 9/25**



mverta @ Mon Sep 27 said:


> [quote="poseur @ Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:18 pm"most of what i've said, here, was in hopes of dissuading young composers
> from focussing entirely upon craft & what we now think of as film-scoring professionalism,
> which i clearly feel has taken a huge-assed bite out of the realities of individualistic creative processes:



Well, I could argue that what young composers could use _most_ is some freakin' craft, which I think gives us a huge-assed advantage at our chances to hone truly individual creative processes... but that'd just be arguing. I know we agree that the more you can do, the more you can choose to do.


_Mike[/quote]
ha!
you could argue that.....
but, i would argue, for sure.
my view of balance in all things, wherever possible, would fuel my rebuttal.

..... since today's balance-sheet shows me a truckload of competitive composers focussed on craft,
not on creative thrust,
so many of whom seem to believe that trailer-music & epic-trailer-music defines ALL film-composition.

granted, they may not be as actually crafty as they could be,
but i still see that misperception (in my own weensy l'il mind) 
as a ready-and-willing-ness to deny & ignore the stain of the creative impulse
in order to provide even more "music by the pound".....
which validates the strange demands made by many producers & directors,
and helps them to pinch pennies & skimp on original score-resource-budgets for _all_ of us.

d


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 9/25**

Man... are we talking about the same "craft?" Because most of what I hear in trailer music requires almost none of it. When I was doing trailers - actually, when I write any music - it was as academically sound as I could make it, even given the stupid, repetitive structure that all trailers follow. The pieces themselves had beginnings, middles, and ends. That was actually the hardest part - making them musical. You know, I could see a benefit in challenging young guys to actually do that, instead of just doing these loops-as-music things.

Craft to me, is about deep-level mastery such that you can't help but be competent. Like, at some point, Da Vinci sort of couldn't draw something poorly. Even his crap sketches were gems. That sort of thing.

I agree that doing loops stuff for trailers isn't really furthering one's individual ability, nor the art, but that's not the trailer's fault. You can always choose to do good work.

_Mike


----------



## synthetic

Good podcast, I enjoyed that. 

I also liked the "terrace" quote in your latest piece.


----------



## poseur

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 9/25**



mverta @ Mon Sep 27 said:


> Man... are we talking about the same "craft?" Because most of what I hear in trailer music requires almost none of it. When I was doing trailers - actually, when I write any music - it was as academically sound as I could make it, even given the stupid, repetitive structure that all trailers follow. The pieces themselves had beginnings, middles, and ends. That was actually the hardest part - making them musical. You know, I could see a benefit in challenging young guys to actually do that, instead of just doing these loops-as-music things.
> 
> Craft to me, is about deep-level mastery such that you can't avoid but be competent. Like, at some point, Da Vinci sort of couldn't draw something poorly. Even his crap sketches were gems. That sort of thing.
> 
> I agree that doing loops stuff for trailers isn't really furthering one's individual ability, nor the art, but that's not the trailer's fault. You can always choose to do good work.
> 
> _Mike



i think i've made myself pretty clear, no?
i think i have.
we have some disagreement, some agreement.

it may be that we do not see the same things,
that the way we work, who we work with/for, our contact w/"the industry" is quite different.

it's all good.
i will never argue against the development of craft, ever; never.
nor have i done so, here.
nor have i said that the plethora of competitive composers are particularly 
or broadly skilled at their areas-of-craft.

i will argue for balance of focus, though.

that's clear, right?
i hope so!

d


----------



## David Story

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 9/25**

Mike,

Excuse my joining the conversation a bit late...catching up:
1) Thank you. Your compositions, performances and engineering are exceptional. I've become accomplished in just one of those categories, props to you for learning 3 so well. I'm a fan.






2) Your integrity is self evident, I'm agreeing with both poseur and you. More the same than different, at heart. The "accents" in different places.





3) Giving advice is hard to do well. It's great that you're willing and able to do it. If someone gets one idea on how to be a better person, composer, businessman, etc, you've done good.

4) I'd like to see a video of your working on a sketch, like what Mike Patti and others occasioò    è±    è±    è±	    è±
 


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 9/25**



David Story @ Mon Sep 27 said:


> 4) I'd like to see a video of your working on a sketch, like what Mike Patti and others occasionally do. Music production is so visual now.



Sure, I could do that... I assume there's screencap stuff for Mac (I use Camtasia on my PC's)? 

If anybody knows about that, plus wants to throw a few notes out, I can improv something.

_Mike


----------



## sherief83

Mr verta,
Your latest piece is very beautiful. I loved every aspect of it. There is a Williams influence that I sense in all of your works and I don't think I will criticize it but praise it actually. It is very rare for someone to capture that spirit well and make it there own even. It has a soul and emotions beyond what is expressed in today's scoring world. 

I also have been following your thread and the fact that your willing to take the time to give advice and explaining your process is greatly appreciated! We youngsters (or me the youngster) learn a lot from it! I hope you will continue to update your thread and share your experiences with us.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 9/25**

Well I'm really glad to hear you're taking something from it, and thanks so much for the kind words!

_Mike


----------



## markbnyc

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 9/25**

Yeah, Mike, thanks for taking the time to give such a thoughtful answer! Much appreciated!

Mark


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 9/25**



mverta @ 27/9/2010 said:


> Training vs. Working



Fantastic. Must-hear for most of us. Thank you, Mike! =o


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 9/25**

Okay, admittedly, this isn't really a "new piece" - it's a goofy tribute I wrote to all that 80's cheesy synthy goodness of my yesteryouth. If you're old enough to remember Apache A-Frame stands, and the Juno 106, you'll smile, hopefully. I mean, just check out the piece's credentials:


1) TR-909, 808, Linn Drums? *Yes.*
2) Moog Bass? *Of course.*
3) Plenty of Faltermeyer? *Plenty.*
4) Synth lead? *What did I just say?*
5) Hair-Band Guitar? *Definitely.*
6) DX-7? *Nigga, please...*
7) David Foster Wailing Sax? *Check.*
8) That patch from _Don't You Forget About Me?_ *Yep - programmed it, even.*
9) Suspensions aplenty? *Naturally.*
10) Breakdown? *Affirmative. Courtesy of Night Ranger.*
11) D50 Bell Patch? *Tons of it.*
12) Horn section? *Steve Winwood is erect just thinking about it.*
13) Brute-Force Whole-Step Modulation? *Damn straight.*
14) How does it end? *How do all 80's tunes end...?*

So, here it is... So 80's. Enjoy your trip 


_Mike


----------



## germancomponist

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 10/25!**

This is very good, Mike!

I like all 3 criterias: A cool composition, a good arrangement and a fine sound!

Great job, Mike!

Thanks for sharing.

Gunther


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 10/25!**

I confess it was fun  

80's music always has this sort of optimistic energy to it. 

_Mike


----------



## JBacal

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 10/25!**

I got my first synth (a Roland Jupiter 6) in the early 80's so this was a fun trip down memory lane. Groovin' track!

Best,
Jay


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 10/25!**

 My first: Korg Poly61M.

_Mike


----------



## madbulk

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 10/25!**

If loving this was wrong, I don't wanna be right.

edit: No midi-havin' Poly 61 on an ultimate a-frame for me, plugged into a Roland Jazz Chorus.


----------



## germancomponist

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 10/25!**



mverta @ Tue Oct 26 said:


> ..... this sort of optimistic energy to it.
> 
> _Mike



What I am missing in so many (modern) pieces today: Happyness! o-[][]-o


----------



## George Caplan

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 10/25!**

this is like harold faltermeyer meets jan hammer.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 10/25!**

I listened to the piece again today, and though I rarely do this, I think it may need a couple more bpm. It's at 100; 80's would be 102-ish, I think.

_Mike


----------



## dannthr

Mike, I know that many have already thanked you for your podcast on Working and Training, but I just want to thank you as well.

It was very timely for me, to be honest, as I have been struggling the past few weeks with projects I don't want to be working on, that pay my bills, projects that I want to work on, that cost me money, and projects I think I should work on, because it might further my career, that cost me more time than I really have.

It's been extremely stressful and actually very scary to be working on so many projects and not know at all where the month after next's rent will come from.

The whole experience has left me cranky and quickly annoyed with friends, family, and loved ones as well as just about anyone else I've interacted with.

So I just want to say how much I genuinely appreciate your sincere words of levity, encouragement, and overall hope. They really struck me at a very important time and while I believe that there is probably a time in most artist's lives where your message would be especially poignant, I'm very glad you made the message when you did and I was able to find it.

From my heart, thank you.


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 10/25!**

Hey Mike,
I never had the opportuniy to tell you how impressed I am with your prolific output.
Great job!
Your speed is something I really envy.

re: the 80's tune. Well done, but I'll pass. 
I never really liked that time period of film music soundtracks, despite the fact that like so many others here I lived through it (Lynn Drum, Prophet 5, RX7, JP8, D50...etc)
You definitely nailed the (sterile) 80's feel :wink:


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 10/25!**

Dan - You made my day. I'm so glad to hear you're feeling better. Enjoy the ride - what has been called our queer, divine dissatisfaction. 


@Patrick re: 80's. Thank you for the kind words! And yes, sterile is a good word. But it's an upbeat sterile, unlike today. 


_Mike


----------



## Farkle

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 10/25!**

Mike - 

I wanted to second Dan's sentiments, and sincerely thank you for your recent Training Vs. Working Podcast.

I made a choice several years ago to not move to LA/San Fran/Austin/NYC for video game development, deciding to stay in Philadelphia. I am ecstatic about my location, and the life that I've built, but I had 2 very LEAN years where I was struggling to get any payment at ALL for my music and my SFX. No-budget indie gigs, very unprofessional devs telling me it was "a great opportunity"... It was very creatively draining, and I was having trouble keeping my creative optimism and "faith" going. Philly was a wasteland for game development, and only now is it starting to turn around.

Your podcast reminded me of that "motivation and passion" that we all have as composers... I had kind of forgotten it a bit! 

Also, that reminder that we don't have to be the next John Williams to make a career, and that we can be at a good level, and build a career. It's all too easy to forget that, when studying Hisaishi, Williams, Silvestri, Goldsmith, and thinking, "Oh, man, how could I ever compete with these guys?" We don't have to, we have to keep our creativity and optimism high, and keep that balance of life and composing there.

I'm probably in a good place to hear this, b/c I'm wrapping up stage 1 of EIS, under a GREAT teacher, so my mind is being really opened up and refreshed creatively. But, I just wanted to thank you also, Mike, for that podcast. It was reinvigorating! 

I do wish you were on the East Coast. We're both NYU grads, I'd buy you a drink as thank you! 

All the best,

Mike


----------



## DeactivatedAcc

Mike,

Really evocative, love it! As someone who was fiddling with old Casio synths and such more than a decade ago, I have a real affinity for this.

-jjb


----------



## synthetic

Very cool. It was so hard for me to stop writing music like this.  

Needs louder snare with more reverb, preferably gated.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 10/25!**

Oh, there were so many things I wanted to do... 

Theò3É   íŒ3É   íŒ‚3É   íŒƒ3É   íŒ„3É   íŒ…3É   íŒ†3É   íŒ‡3É   íŒˆ3É   íŒ‰3É   íŒŠ3É   íŒ‹3É   íŒŒ3É   íŒ3É   íŒŽ3É   íŒ3É   íŒ3É   íŒ‘3É   íŒ’3É   íŒ“3É   íŒ”3É   íŒ•3É   íŒ–3É   íŒ—3É   íŒ˜3É   íŒ™3É   íŒš3É   íŒ›3É   íŒœ3É   íŒ3É   íŒž3É   íŒŸ3É   íŒ 3É   íŒ¡3É   íŒ¢3É   íŒ£3É   íŒ¤3É   íŒ¥3É   íŒ¦3É   íŒ§3É   íŒ¨3É   íŒ©3É


----------



## Fhl

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 10/25!**

Hi Mike, 

This is absolutely wonderful work. So inspiring!

I can hear Jurassic Park in "The Race". can tell you're a Williams fan. Great, I love it 

All these mockups are great, but I really, really (really!) enjoyed "Young Leia". Excellent!


Keep up the very fine work, and please continue to share your work.

Thank you,

Sincerely,
Fredrik


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

Yep, some sort of wiki would be great. I'm sure there are tons of approaches people use to get the most out of their mock-ups!


_Mike


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

Hi Mike,

I wished I had seen a video as informative as this one when I was starting out midi. 
The quality of the montage is top notch as well.


----------



## synthetic

Wow, awesome video. That video should be a sticky on this board somewhere. I already sent it to two friends. 

Interesting on the breath and bow, I usually think of mod for phrasing more than hitting each individual note. Food for thought.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 10/25!**

We rolled a page, so here's the link again for the newcomers.



mverta @ Sun Nov 28 said:


> VI Performance Techniques





@Guy: Thanks! Me too 

@synthetic: of course, those ideas aren't mutually exclusive. Obviously, I'm doing macro and micro at the same time; notes and phrases as one synergistic unit.

@Mr. Anxiety (from another thread): It may be my orchestration analness, but I've found that if I perform in the parts at the dynamic marking they should be at, then there's no "rebalancing" to be done later. In fact, since changing the dynamic marking utterly changes the nature of the music, I think doing it later would cause everything to unravel. I suppose it's worth saying that my template is properly dynamics-balanced, meaning if I take a score and play it in, where p is, say 0-60, mp-mf is 60-90, and f is 90-127, the internal balances between sections is correct. Admittedly, it took me a buttload of time to get that right...



_Mike


----------



## rJames

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 9/25**



poseur @ Mon Sep 27 said:


> as goes the pedagogical treatise, mike;
> i recognise that the question posed to you was rooted in a young composer's
> desire for guidance, focussed upon the area of craft-work.
> 
> but, there's much of your career/philosophical perspective, there,
> with which i do not agree, with which i haven't ever agreed,
> but which you seem to present as if it were "factual",
> as if we might presume it were some kind of consensus amongst film-composers.
> 
> d



There are as many roads to success as there are roads. (success being: happiness, fulfillment, whatever it is to each individual, etc.)


----------



## Mr. Anxiety

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

Thanks for the vid Mike. Very informative and I'm sure it will be very useful for a lot of forum members.

about the volume balance of instruments:

Are you using volume separate from the dynamic crossfade layering, or is your volume only provided by the dynamic levels....... does that question make sense?

ie..... when you perform your horn line, are you using a volume pedal as well as your mod wheel dynamic controller?

Mr A


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

Question makes total sense, and the answer is I don't use "volume," per se, merely dynamic markings in the samples themselves. 

I actually do have one beef about a lot of sample libraries, which is semi-related to this, which is when the _recording_ characteristic of an instrument changes from pp-ff, instead of just the natural instrument's timbre changing. Like, I swear with some horn samples they get pp with the microphone in the bell, and then take the ff sample from 15 feet away. Or they change the EQ for each sample. I have rebuilt many sounds over the years, just balancing the pp-ff so they sound like the same mic at the same distance. If you have a ton of warmth and resonance in a horn at pp, it doesn't, like, vanish at ff, it's there PLUS. Hate that.

But anyway, yeah, no volume, per se.


_Mike


----------



## Mr. Anxiety

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

I thought so on the volume issue. I've spent years getting my template balanced to avoid having to use volume, but it's been difficult. Most libraries aren't leaving that volume dynamic intact, normalizing the samples, so we have to go in and redefine it, which sucks. I haven't quite got it so I can only use the dynamic crossfading, but it's getting close.

How are you dealing with the size of the sections........ you switch from unison lines to 3-4 part harmony in the vid. Are you switching samples as well, or using the same patch for both? This affects realism big time, wouldn't you say? The divis aspect of the brass/WW and of course strings.

Thanks again for sharing with us the technique video.

Mr A


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

I am switching samples. However, in both cases, I'm using layers of samples - a blend of libraries, because I don't like any one library's sound for any of these instruments. So the samples I layer for the legato may actually be different be from different libraries or patches than the ones I use for the section stuff. Choosing and altering various patches so that it all sounds like the same stuff in the end is part of what I've spent most of my time on.



_Mike


----------



## dfhagai

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

This is pure gold and the quality is indeed top notch.
A couple of more chapters like this and you have a commercial product which I'll gladly pay for, and recommend.

May I ask what are the brass and winds you used in this tutorial? they sound amazing.

Thanks a million for this excellent tutorial,
And of course - More please


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

The trumpets are a layer between the standard VSL 3 trumpets, VSL Fanfare Trumpets, and The Trumpet. But it would be disingenuous to say that's the whole of it - the standard VSL 3 trumpets are on a Gigastudio, and I edited those samples like years ago, and honestly don't remember what I did. I know they sound very different than the stock ones, in terms of EQ and such. In fact, the 3 layers all have sort of weird EQ's designed to work as a unit; if you pull any one layer out, it sounds funny. 

Similar story with the horns, which are VSL Epic Horns, and the original 4 Horns, which is again hosted on a Giga, and was heavily tweaked. As I recall with those, there was just all kinds of horrific midrange on the original samples or something, but it wasn't across all dynamic markings. Like, their original fff samples sounded like freakin' kazoos.

Flutes in the little Chords section are just straight VSL 3 Flutes, if I remember correctly. Always did like those. But truly, those performance tricks really help to maximize what's in the samples. A good comparison is what you hear out of Guy Bacos's great VSL demos. He uses every articulation of those instruments expertly, but he's not allowed to change anything about the samples, so sometimes you can hear exactly where and when they don't work for some reason. So basically I just try and address those issues at the sample or EQ level, per patch. 

My template, even though it changes a bit from time to time, has at its core some instrument settings I probably spent a year tweaking before I thought it was usable. But at least now it's one template, I can trust it, and it translates to live sessions perfectly.


_Mike


----------



## dfhagai

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

No shortcuts...again


----------



## Blackster

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

Mike, thanks a lot for that video and the effort you took !! Really inspiring and good points!


----------



## futur2

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

mike, this is an m-audio keystation you're using? i'm looking for a new keyboard. if it's good enough for you it should be good enough for me i guess. the fact that it's cheap wouldn't bother me too :mrgreen: so is it good enough for you, are you pleased with it?

oh yeah, great video, very well done also! =o


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

Thanks, guys... glad you enjoy the video.

@futur2: Ywa, it's an M-Audio 88-key workstation. Probably my 7th or 8th. They don't last, but they're cheap. 

Gunther: what secrets? 


If you guys honestly have suggestions for videos, let me know...


_Mike


----------



## dcoscina

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the video. Using the mod wheel to control changes in timbre and dynamics has been key for anyone using orchestral samples. I do find velocity to be effective for short samples like staccato or spiccato strings, or short articulation winds and brass, or percussion however. 

Not to make this a VSL ad, but I do find the option of using the mod wheel to control velocity x-fade to be crucial because, unlike CC7 or CC11, it's not just changing the volume but the timbre of the instrument. 

Thanks again for the cool video!


----------



## Blackster

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**



mverta @ Mon Nov 29 said:


> If you guys honestly have suggestions for videos, let me know...



Great, many thanks! What might of huge interest for me is your process from paper to the finished product. Meaning how much do you focus on writing out single lines versus editing the audio material. I edited (compressor, EQ) almost every instrument a few years ago before I discovered that a good orchestration does this part for me naturally  ... 

Without any doubt, I assume you are able to write a huge piece of music for full orchestra only using pen and paper and without any use of technology. I know that you've done a lot of live recording of full orchestra so you know exactly what you are emulating with samples. I guess that's really the secret, if there is one anyway. 

So my request is to share some of your experience of how you balance the sound of the orchestra (meaning the sections) and how you mask some disadvantages of samples in order to get the most realistic result. I know this is very general and there so many details you can focus on. But what do you think about grabbing only one section (of your choice) of the orchestra and giving us a little insight on how you use it - orchestration-wise. 

And yes, like someone said before, for sure I would pay for those information because it's your work and your time!


----------



## David Story

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

Thank you, this is as clear as I've ever seen these concepts. And the best production values. A new standard for how to teach using streaming video. Entertaining.






Is it fair to say that you've created a custom library by tweaking instruments from commercial libraries?
How do you cross from one library to the next? Eg, Are the trumpets different instruments each on their own channel, or are the samples all loaded into one new instrument?

Also, could you suggest pieces that are good to practice push-pull technique. It seems you have the Williams repertoire at your fingertips. Beautiful work.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**



Blackster @ Mon Nov 29 said:


> I know that you've done a lot of live recording of full orchestra so you know exactly what you are emulating with samples. I guess that's really the secret, if there is one anyway.



The short answer is, yes, it's just about solid orchestration. However, there is an inverse relationship between musical performance sophistication and quality of a mock-up.

What this means is that for virtual pieces, or the demo sketches here, I probably only attempt 60% of what I'd do live, because both the most robust, and most subtle things you can get live simply can't be done for shit virtually, period. Anybody who thinks virtual mock-ups are even close to real performances isn't utilizing the orchestra fully. It's like, if you're doing whole notes, or endless spiccato ostinatos, then sure, you can probably fool just about everybody with virtual stuff. But you're not getting a Leonard Bernstein-quality _Rite of Spring_ on samples. You're not. All the libraries on Earth, and a year of time to do it wouldn't do it. It's insane to suggest otherwise; or at least, naive.

So when I know I have to do stuff virtually, I know I'm going in with both hands tied behind my back, and I don't try and do stuff I know won't work. I don't always get to follow that, though. My score for Ultraman last year was easily the worst sounding virtual stuff I've done, because with 83 minutes to write in 5 weeks, I simply couldn't afford to second-guess or limit myself. I had to write what I'd really write live, and just deal. The result is, of course, that a good portion of the score is beyond what you can pull off virtually, and what would actually be coolest, is the worst. 

The caveat here - and I hate to keep beating this horse - is that when I'm talking about the quality of live stuff, I'm not talking about just any orchestra. I'm talking about the absolute top-call A-List guys here in LA, or the LSO (after lunch). I'm talking about the men and women who do the filmscore idiom for breakfast; who are "the sound" of movie soundtracks we share in our collective memories. Music performed not just by 92 musicians - every one a virtuoso - but by 92 musicians who truly shape and understand the idiom is the standard I'm fortunate enough to have worked with. I write for what they're capable of (anything), and have had the misfortune of hearing lesser groups just absolutely get their asses handed to them by the material, with disastrous consequences. I mean, you can put The Planets on the stands of a high school orchestra. You ain't gettin' The Planets.


So it would safe for me to say that doing anything virtually makes me angry, because I don't like being crippled. That's why I work so hard to try and find techniques to make this shit sound like anything. But then again, I don't get to do live stuff everyday, and this is the reality of it. So as far as possible, I try and present the work in the best possible light, and part of that means not deliberately writing things I know will only sound like crap in the final analysis. I choose ranges and orchestration sometimes based not just on a instrument, but which sample sounds best in those regions. It's the spirit of orchestration, anyway, if not a bastard child of the pure discipline.


EDIT - @David: Yes, that would be fair to say, to a degree. As for practice pieces, truly, it can be anything. I did a lot of Williams examples, because the kid I originally did this for is a huge Williams fan. Plus, yes, I have just about all that at my fingertips.  As for switching, etc... depends... sometimes they're stacked up on a single channel with keyswitches, or if the library doesn't support it, then I have them on their own channel(s). Hope that helps.


_Mike


----------



## Ashermusic

I totally agree Mike.


----------



## whinecellar

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**



mverta @ Mon Nov 29 said:


> ...and have had the misfortune of hearing lesser groups just absolutely get their asses handed to them by the material, with disastrous consequences.



Amen to that! We do a Christmas symphony tour every year and get to play with some really good ones (Nashville, Dallas, L.A., etc.) and some not-so-good ones. It's amazing how different the same piece can sound! With the better groups we'll open with "Flight To Neverland" from Hook (one of Williams' best, IMO) and, well, once in a while it actually sounds like the original 

Dead-on accurate about the differences between writing for the real thing vs. samples as well.

Mike, thanks for doing all of this; it's very gracious of you, and I'd venture a guess we're all learning quite a bit and/or getting inspired to roll up our sleeves and get some work done!

All the best,


----------



## Steve Martin

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

Hey Mike,

just want to say thanks for all the work you did in the video.

I have not even finished watching it yet, but, I just felt the urge to stop watching, and come back to this page, log in, and say "thank you" for what I have seen so far! :D 

Well, I had better get back to watching it! This will be a great help to me.


Again, it's a great video Mike and I can see that a lot of people have appreciated the work that you have put into this, and also your willingness to share with us your experience.

Oh yes, congratulations on the baby boy! Great news!

best,

Steve :D


----------



## Dan Mott

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

Thanks for the video, Mr Verta!


----------



## Dan Selby

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

Very well put together video, Mike, and consistently excellent quality work you are posting here too. Great stuff!

Dan


----------



## dcoscina

Mike, I also agree about the restrictions of sample based orchestral music. If I'm writing a concert score in Sibelius or NOTION, my music is invariably more complex and dynamic because I'm not worried about refining or shaping a line in realtime. I throw a slur or articulation of choice and move on. I get to concentrate on the music solely. With samples, if I'm turning them in as a finished product, I can spend hours on finessing a line in VSL or whatever to make it sound as real as possible. I never take any of my concert scores and transcribe them for better samples. That process would take me a loooooong time to do and in the end, it still wouldn't sound as good as the real thing.


----------



## JBacal

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

Thanks Mike for emphasizing that brass samples need as much "shaping" as string samples. 

Best wishes,
Jay


----------



## tumeninote

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

Mike,

Thank you for your video and sharing your knowledge. I appreciate it!


----------



## dp_audio

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

Mike,

Thanks so much for the video! I found your explanation of the dynamics of winds and brass very helpful. Questions for you: (Sorry if any of these have been answered already.)

• For your VSL wind and brass ensemble patches where you're using velocity crossfade, do you set up curves for velocity crossfade and/or expression within VI/VI Pro?

• Do you use velocity crossfade for solo instruments?

• How do you like the semi-weighted action of that M-Audio keystation compared to a fully-weighted keyboard? I'm using a fully-weighted keyboard now, but I've used that model, and it seems the semi-weighted action might be better suited for most virtual instruments. (Also, that's the only 88-key semi-weighted model I've found so far, so I'm considering buying it.) What do you think?

Thanks!


----------



## Johannes

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

Thanks a lot for making this, mr. Verta. This was valuable learning for me, and I really appreciate the effort you put in making this video. Even the production value of it is great! You are a perfectionist for sure!


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

Thanks for the comments, guys... so glad you're enjoying the video!



DannyPoit @ Tue Nov 30 said:


> • For your VSL wind and brass ensemble patches where you're using velocity crossfade, do you set up curves for velocity crossfade and/or expression within VI/VI Pro?
> 
> • Do you use velocity crossfade for solo instruments?
> 
> • How do you like the semi-weighted action of that M-Audio keystation compared to a fully-weighted keyboard?




 1. Well again, I don't use velocity crossfade - velocity crossfade means it's determined by how hard you hit the keyboard. I use dynamic crossfading and I let the modwheel change the samples, and nearly disable velocity input from the keyboard altogether (but not QUITE... more on that some time later...) So I just - at the patch level - enable x-fade, and set modwheel as the controller for it. I don't use expression. The default curve VE Pro uses (linear) seems fine to me; at least, I've gotten used to it 

2. Yep. Assuming, again, you mean dynamic crossfading, versus velocity crossfading.

3. I was trained as a classical pianist, who switched to jazz early on, but actually liked playing rock keyboards. So I have a very heavy, arguably clumsy, touch. On a piano, I can bang away all day and night - the natural wood and other parts of the piano provide enough of a cushion so I don't beat my fingers to death. But weighted keyboards are like hitting a concrete wall to me, and I've done damage more than a couple of times. So that's what motivated me away from weighted keyboards. But also, yeah, I just feel the slightly spongy response of, say, the M-Audio feels more appropriate for VI stuff. That said, though the M-Audio is my favorite input keyboard (because it's small and streamlined - I don't need it to do anything else), it's cheap as hell and I go through about 3 a year. Whatever. Cheap.

One thing I would love, though, is an M-Audio with one or two more controller wheels. Actually, maybe you guys have a recommendation for a good standalone controller pad with a few wheels on it? Not sliders, or sticks, but wheels? That might work for me, but having the wheel RIGHT next to the keys is really important for those ultra-fast keyswitch moments. Probably going to have to have a custom controller keyboard built one day. Wonder how one does that...

_Mike


----------



## Christian Marcussen

Nice stuff Mike...and love your effortless playing around with Williams and Goldsmith stuff. When you played the Ark theme I got goosebumps... Hows that for a great theme? 

Keep it up.


----------



## Johannes

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**



futur2 @ Mon Nov 29 said:


> mike, this is an m-audio keystation you're using? i'm looking for a new keyboard. if it's good enough for you it should be good enough for me i guess.



The power of the Internet!

With the credibility you´re gaining on this forum based on the great video and your teriffic mockups, mr. Verta, I would not be surprised if M-Audio sees increased sales of the Keystation 88. I think you should call Avid, and you´ll probably get your keyboards for free from now on


----------



## Rob Elliott

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

Hey Mike - I DO need to stop by VI Control more. :oops: Wonderful video. Made me re-commit to playing all parts (with controllers) until just right and stop plaû  ~   =  ~   Œ  ~   œ  ~   Î  ~   8  ~   x  ~    €  ~    ý  ~   ‹  ~   õ  ~   u#  ~   u´  ~   ùf  ~   ùr  ~   ø  ~   ø   ~   ¢m  ~   ¢²  ~   ©î  ~


----------



## Ashermusic

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**



mverta @ Tue Nov 30 said:


> Thanks for the comments, guys... so glad you're enjoying the video!
> 
> 
> 
> DannyPoit @ Tue Nov 30 said:
> 
> 
> 
> • For your VSL wind and brass ensemble patches where you're using velocity crossfade, do you set up curves for velocity crossfade and/or expression within VI/VI Pro?
> 
> • Do you use velocity crossfade for solo instruments?
> 
> • How do you like the semi-weighted action of that M-Audio keystation compared to a fully-weighted keyboard?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Well again, I don't use velocity crossfade - velocity crossfade means it's determined by how hard you hit the keyboard. I use dynamic crossfading and I let the modwheel change the samples, and nearly disable velocity input from the keyboard altogether (but not QUITE... more on that some time later...) So I just - at the patch level - enable x-fade, and set modwheel as the controller for it. I don't use expression. The default curve VE Pro uses (linear) seems fine to me; at least, I've gotten used to it
> 
> 2. Yep. Assuming, again, you mean dynamic crossfading, versus velocity crossfading.
> 
> 3. I was trained as a classical pianist, who switched to jazz early on, but actually liked playing rock keyboards. So I have a very heavy, arguably clumsy, touch. On a piano, I can bang away all day and night - the natural wood and other parts of the piano provide enough of a cushion so I don't beat my fingers to death. But weighted keyboards are like hitting a concrete wall to me, and I've done damage more than a couple of times. So that's what motivated me away from weighted keyboards. But also, yeah, I just feel the slightly spongy response of, say, the M-Audio feels more appropriate for VI stuff. That said, though the M-Audio is my favorite input keyboard (because it's small and streamlined - I don't need it to do anything else), it's cheap as hell and I go through about 3 a year. Whatever. Cheap.
> 
> One thing I would love, though, is an M-Audio with one or two more controller wheels. Actually, maybe you guys have a recommendation for a good standalone controller pad with a few wheels on it? Not sliders, or sticks, but wheels? That might work for me, but having the wheel RIGHT next to the keys is really important for those ultra-fast keyswitch moments. Probably going to have to have a custom controller keyboard built one day. Wonder how one does that...
> 
> _Mike
Click to expand...


Mike, don't you miss having weighted key when you play that thing?

BTW, props to you. You are a truly talented guy.


----------



## Melvin Frohike

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

Thanks a lot, Mike. The video is great. Here's hoping you'll do more of these. 

I was wondering how you play in the different parts. Do you record your performance while the rest of the music is playing, or are you performing each part solo, only with a beat?


----------



## Fhl

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

Excellent video, Mike. Thank you! Without doubt the most professional looking virtual instrument video I've ever seen. You should consider making a series 

If you feel like making a video about reverberation and positioning, I'd be very happy 

- Fredrik


----------



## mjc

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**



Fhl @ Thu Dec 02 said:


> Excellent video, Mike. Thank you! Without doubt the most professional looking virtual instrument video I've ever seen. You should consider making a series
> 
> If you feel like making a video about reverberation and positioning, I'd be very happy
> 
> - Fredrik



+1

YES PLEASE!! :D :D


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

Melvin -

I absolutely play parts in context, in real time. I mean, the first few parts go down, "naked," of course, but after that the blend in-context is crucial. Now to that end, I will actually lay down the dominant voices, end-to-end, first - that is, the instruments I want to feature in each section (not necessarily the melody, in a piece with lots of theme & development, for example; after the theme's been well-established, I like to let the secondary parts actually fight for attention from time to time... I could talk about that for a week, but...)...


I'm not sure how to do a reverb/positioning/EQ video without discussing the whole of mixing, which would be like, 6 hours of instruction, or something 

There are other topics I can think of how to do more easily, though, like the generalized paper/virtual hybrid I use for jobs where I want all the advantages and guidance of a paper score, but have to deliver virtually, or quickly, where an actual written score is superfluous. Let me think on it a bit...


_Mike


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## JonFairhurst

Mike,

Great video! (Could be compressed a lot more though for quicker download. You don't need all that many bits when most of the image is static.)

I'm curious about tempo. Of course, you can play things in freehand, if you're not sync'ing to picture. For sync, do you tend to set up your tempos in the sequencer and play to a click track, or do you prefer another method?

Thanks!


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

Good question!

The answer is I think of sync like punches-and-streamers, where there are certain really hard points I want to hit, and it's up to me to keep an internal sense of pace until the next guideline shows up. More often than not, I'll give myself a start, an out, and a couple of sync points, and leave the rest up to me to perform properly, which means it ebbs and flows as it should; I can use poco-a-poco's all day long and let them be natural, without being slaved to a click. Let me tell you, a great track can become a phenomenal track if you let it breathe. 

AND... I have to say, I think choosing the right tempo is everything. I almost always choose the nature of my cues based not just on the drama of the moment, but on the speed of the edit, motion of people through the frame, pace of dialogue... there's always an internal rhythm, which if you can lock into it, allows everything in the soundscape to play together musically. I think if you find yourself needing a lot of meter or tempo changes, you've picked the wrong tempo/subdivision. Scour your most complex Steiner/Goldsmith/Williams cues and you'll find they'll drop or add an 8th or Quarter from time to time, but mostly flow very naturally... conduct very naturally.

Every once in awhile I'll pay attention to the Bar|Beat in Pro Tools, but within a cue, nearly always float off of it if the moment needs breath. In some cases, for neatness' sake, I've gone back after the fact and put in some meter changes to match the performance, but not that often. For all the hemming and hawing that I see go on about all the things a sequencer "needs" to be able to be useful, the truth is, you don't ACTUALLY need that stuff. Used to be composers could do just fine without even being able to just call up the picture whenever. They had to follow timing and spotting notes, and there wasn't sample-accurate repeatable precision anywhere in the chain. It still works best.

It's all about letting the human shine through, as far as I'm concerned. Letting things breathe, letting the source dictate the tempo and rhythm, letting the emotional power of a moment influence you and the performance in real, human ways. Sometimes you get excited and speed up a touch. GOOD! Why do you think in live sessions, we choose carefully which cues we record at which time of day?


_Mike


----------



## JonFairhurst

Personally, I've done both (freehand, and to a click), and I find that my preference depends on what I'm scoring.

One big difference is whether the cue is action/adrenalin, or if it's dramatic. In an action piece with lots of cartooning (I often do campy action comedy), I'll keep the tempo as fixed as I can while varying the meter to hit the sync points. For dramatic work, I hold the meter and vary the tempo as far as I would like. I did one piece that went up to 200 bpm and slowed all the way down to 10 bpm as the tension built.

What I would really like would be to play the initial part(s) in freehand, tweak the tempo slightly if I need to tighten up the sync hits, and then have the sequencer map it's tempo to my performance. In other words, don't quantize my performance to the sequencer; quantize the sequencer to my performance. From there, I can work with the mouse to try stuff out, or with the keyboard. For instance, on long drone notes, I'd just as soon mouse in the notes and then record just the mod wheel live. If I need to mess with the start and end points, I can do it in a few clicks, rather than trying to perform for a minute to lay down four long notes.

But regardless of the method, the goal is the same - to make the music flow and breathe musically in a way that fully supports the picture.


----------



## impressions

great video the references are spot on. i don't think there is something i didn't know and didn't take with me.
the most intimidating part was your demonstrations, drawing beautiful lines without thinking, maybe pianists will be less impressed.
great to hear that kind of ease inspiration, much like jazz players only in the film scoring style.


----------



## synergy543

JonFairhurst @ Wed Dec 01 said:


> What I would really like would be to play the initial part(s) in freehand, tweak the tempo slightly if I need to tighten up the sync hits, and then have the sequencer map it's tempo to my performance. In other words, don't quantize my performance to the sequencer; quantize the sequencer to my performance.


You can do this with DP. Its not automated, and requires some manual adjustment although its quite easy to do.
Modify Conductor Track > Adjust Audio Beats

btw, great video Mike. And your AE chops equally impress.

Also, since the .flv file of your video is only 321M, it might be helpful to those having trouble streaming (as I did) to provide a download link. Its possible to dig out of the hidden cache, although I won't tell where it is, unless you want to provide a link.


----------



## JonFairhurst

synergy543 @ Thu Dec 02 said:


> JonFairhurst @ Wed Dec 01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I would really like would be to ... have the sequencer map it's tempo to my performance.
> 
> 
> 
> You can do this with DP.
Click to expand...


Dang. I'm a PC. 

I seem to remember trying such a feature (in Sonar? in a demo somewhere?), and it made too many bad decisions to be helpful.



> Also ... it might be helpful ... to provide a download link.



If you have Real Audio installed (at least on the PC), it floats a download link over the browser (Firefox anyway) that you can click to download most any streamed media. The application also offers a transcoder, so you can save it as h.264 for a variety of target devices (iPad, phones, etc.)

But back on topic... Mike's video rocks. Human sounding performances are critically important to a good mock up. And, yes, I wish I had Mike's keyboard chops too!


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

Hi guys -

I added a link at the bottom of the page to download an .h264 Quicktime .mov of the tutorial, for those with streaming issues.

Thanks!

_Mike


----------



## EwigWanderer

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

Thank you!! Video was very helpfull and I think it was one of the best out there. Very basic things but like me I haven't though about these things before so much. I mean doing everything in real time and not to do them after playing to midi track.

Hope to see more video lessons from you Mike


----------



## dinerdog

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

+1 on the video.

I'd like to pre-order anything you could share with us. Sort of a modern "On The Track". That kind of knowledge (and ability to teach/share it) should not be wasted.

Thank you. : >


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

I'm so glad you guys are getting something out of the video. The reason I put it on a page on my site is so I can track how much actual usage/views/downloads it gets, to see if there's really a demand to do a series of some kind. I can certainly think of a lot to talk about... But I did this little one in a day and a half for a friend, and I would want any "actual" release to really be done right, which would be more work and time, so I think I'll watch the page for a week or so and see how things pan out.

Regardless, I'm grateful and humbled by your responses!


_Mike


----------



## fido94

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

Mike, this recent video really made my day when I watched it. It unlocked a secret door for the world of midi mock-ups. The trick with the mod-wheel really works and it's very powerful!

I have been behind on this topic so I took time this week to read the full discussion. I have been also listening to your compositions this week on my iPod  

I think many people will agree that there's a _gap_ in terms a complete guide for midi mock-ups as well as the technology behind it (templates, reverb setting etc..). Of course VI-Control is a great source but we really don't have an end-to-end reference. Mock-ups are an art of their own and they do deserve more articles, books, tutorials and of course videos. Thanks to you, Cinesamples, Alex Pfeffer and others who can share information about their workflows, I feel very excited but they are leaving me to want more and more of it! :D 

If I may, I'd like to suggest other topics to do videos on:
- String mock-ups and string writing
- How to develop an idea (which you mentioned in this topic discussion)
- Reverb/EQ etc... I know you said it's a long topic but you can divide it into mini-series.

Finally, and out of curiosity, did you consider teaching? I have to say you explain things extremely well! =o 

It's great to have you on this forum. Thanks Mike!


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

While I think this is great, as I mentioned earlier, I also see a bunch of hungry wolves 
with their tongue sticking out, saying: Gimme more! Gimme, Gimme! Mike didn't get to be where he is by having people give him everything on a silver tray. Get off your asses man.... This is a bonus from Mike, he's not a saviour for this pack of hungry wolves. If people don't learn to develop certain things on their own, they're always going to depend on others telling them what to do. 

Take it, that's great, but don't beg for more!


----------



## Ashermusic

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**



Guy Bacos @ Sat Dec 04 said:


> While I think this is great, as I mentioned earlier, I also see a bunch of hungry wolves
> with their tongue sticking out, saying: Gimme more! Gimme, Gimme! Mike didn't get to be where he is by having people give him everything on a silver tray. Get off your asses man.... This is a bonus from Mike, he's not a saviour for this pack of hungry wolves. If people don't learn to develop certain things on their own, they're always going to depend on others telling them what to do.
> 
> Take it, that's great, but don't beg for more!



ROTFL!


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

Okay, I'm guessing Guy didn't get enough sleep last night 

While I actually get the _spirit_ of what he's saying, I don't actually see the requests I've gotten here as ungrateful or demanding. In another thread, I've talked at length about my desire to see precisely more help and interaction from this forum; more support and sharing from members; more inter-community learning and experimenting.

Now, Guy is right in that whatever I've learned has taken 30 years of daily grinding, and that true depth and mastery of these sorts of things simply isn't waiting at the end of a few hours (even a hundred hours!) of instruction. But I don't expect that to be the case; my goal is to provide some seeds, which people can then grow and nurture if they want to take the time and energy.


So honestly, I appreciate the requests and the thoughts/suggestions, and I say: keep 'em coming! 

And to answer fido94, yes, I've done quite a lot of teaching/consulting and public speaking over the years... 


Thanks again, everyone... more to come!


_Mike


----------



## fido94

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

Wow, Guy. Never would have expected this type of response from you but I respect you so I respect your opinion. I have to say I'm quite offended but I won't say much more at this point so that we're sticking to the spirit of this forum and not argue over such comments.

Mike, thanks for the response.


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

Mike you didn't understand what I said. It's my opinion about habits people should take and with my experience in this forum and the tons of emails I get with people constantly asking for recipes rather than developing a philosophy or developing ways to suite their own personality. I value your video Mike, and I had enough sleep, thank you very much! But the way I work has nothing in common with your video, and I don't agree on several things. It works for you because of your specific talent you have and abilities. 99% of the people won't be able to do the same thing. I hope you're fine with that and I'm allowed my opinion?


----------



## ozmorphasis

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

Guy,

With all due respect (and you are due much respect!), this comes across as sounding like you have a chip on your shoulder. 

Mike is being very generous in providing something that is for mockups very much akin to what you would teach to a pianist wanting to learn how to deal with the actual techniques involved in playing a Chopin etude. You would certainly:

1.Demonstrate how it's down physically so that the student can actually see it in action.

2.Explain quite a bit about how to best use the body

3.Discuss (perhaps endlessly) many of the ultimate goals: musicality, touch, dynamics, inner meaning of the music. All of this, being brought back to how each connects with the small details of technique, process, etc.

The depth that exists for piano instruction has not yet manifested for mockups, BUT there are experienced masters around nonetheless in both fields. The latter is simply much younger with much less methodology in place.

What Mike is offering (and by his own admission, doing some test marketing to feel out the market for this type of thing) is an obvious extension in the development of this field.

People asking for more is like a self-taught pianist coming to you and saying "Damnation! You sound good. I can't seem to get my arpeggios in Chopin Etude No.1 to be as even as yours. How do you hold your wrists while...?"

The practice that must then follow on the part of the student is a given in all things worth learning well. A person asking for this type of help IS a person getting of of their ass!

Respectfully,
O


----------



## germancomponist

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**



Guy Bacos @ Sat Dec 04 said:


> But the way I work has nothing in common with your video, and I don't agree on several things. It works for you because of your specific talent you have and abilities. 99% of the people won't be able to do the same thing.


They way I work has a lot in common with Mikes`s video. 

Guy, are you sure that 99% of the people here won`t be able to get what Mike is telling and showing here? >8o 

A good example from Mike, *for example*, is how he works with the VSL brass instruments to let them sound near the real things. I have not listend to many pieces where the VSL brass instruments are sounding as good as in Mike`s pieces. 

Again, thank you very much, Mike!


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

I'm going to stop here cause the more people add comments the more my words are being twisted.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

Guy, I think it's reasonable people might be confused. You went from:



Guy Bacos @ Sun Nov 28 said:


> I wished I had seen a video as informative as this one when I was starting out midi.


to:


Guy Bacos @ Sat Dec 04 said:


> ...the way I work has nothing in common with your video, and I don't agree on several things.


within a page-and-a-half.

But of course, it's fine that you don't agree with the video and that it has absolutely no relevance to the way you work. I never expected it to be useful for everyone. In fact, I said as much explicitly when I posted it. But I think it's presumptuous to pretend to know how people will use whatever knowledge they come across. Perhaps there are many people who have those personal habits and philosophies you mention, who still might find something to gain from the presentation. That is certainly my hope.


_Mike


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

So what am I suppose to say here? That my approach for teaching this stuff is garbage? I'm giving my opinion about this. If you don't like it, I'm sorry about that.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

Guy, this is getting a little surreal. I don't recall us discussing your teaching methods at any point. Do you teach? I'm not sure how that's even relevant, but I'm absolutely sure I haven't said that if you teach, that your teaching methods are garbage... (?).


_Mike


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

Mike, I think you know what I meant.

No, I don't teach this stuff, because people are constantly looking for recipes and tricks
and I try to tell them it's not the way to go about it, I add it works great for me but may not work at all for your style. So I just prefer to approach this differently that's all. I never said anything bad about your video, maybe you should read again what I said. All I'm saying is there's something unhealthy about dying to know someone else's tricks, which I think are like shoes, they fit you but maybe not someone else. This is why I insist on avoiding teaching tricks but rather something for you to strive for to get a better sound which will give you more independence on the long run.

I don't see why I have to justify myself anyway. 

Perhaps Mr Asher would now like to add another ROTFL?


----------



## ozmorphasis

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

The problem is that you keep referring to tricks. This makes it sound like a quick pill to take. 

Again, there is a direct parallel between what Mike is attempting to do, and what a piano teacher does with a student. It's not just tricks. There is methodology, process, more effective/less effective uses of the physical apparatus, etc.

As with ALL things (including learning instruments such as the piano), a good fit between teacher and student is ideal. HOWEVER, it's all shades of gray. There is something to learn from nearly any really experienced and articulate instructor. Therefore, A LOT of people can learn from Mike's methods even if there are, as you say, a lot individual differences in each person's needs/workflow/etc.

Not trying to harp on you. You entered a VERY informative and positive thread, and then said: "get off your asses" to those asking for more gems of instruction from a very well respected mock-up artist who, in this thread alone, has already proven to have a wealth of information to share in terms of process, methodology, use of samples, use of equipment, and much more. 

The important thing to realize here is that people are not asking for more from Mike just based on his end result. Perhaps those are the types of emails that you have been getting from people asking for tricks. In this thread, people are asking for more of the actual instruction that Mike has put forth. In other words, the instruction and the methods themselves are resonating with some people. Why poo-poo that???



O


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

You may not understand where I'm coming from. I just have to see that way. I just base what I say on my personal experience and progression, I think it should at least be respected. Fine if you don't agree.


----------



## ozmorphasis

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

You may be right that I don't understand where you are coming from, Guy.

Hopefully, it goes without saying that I respect the hell out of you, both musically and as a contributor to the sample world (here at VI and on the VSL forums).

Cheers,
O

Ok Mike, sorry to take up so much bandwidth for this sidestep. Back on topic.


----------



## JB78

Ozmorphasis: +1 on all your posts o-[][]-o 

Why try re-inventing the wheel for every step of the way? 

To me that is like ignoring all the theory and music that came before and just go by trial and error, because any other way would be lazy. Progress in any field is made by building on what others have done before and assimilate what works for you and discard the rest. 

Loved the video Mike, keep up the great work

Best regards
Jon


----------



## Mr. Anxiety

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

C'mon Guy! You are a fine composer; you are a student of the craft of both composition and of electronic realization, like all of us, which is the main focus of this forum.

So let everybody get excited about Mike's sharing of his approach to programming samples in his own way, an approach, as he says, might not be right for everyone.

Everybody here allows you to get excited when you receive comments on your composition posts here. Be happy there's a place for people to get to hear your music, and for people to acquire knowledge on how to do whatever they do with these darn samples!

Mr A


----------



## JonFairhurst

Wow. Things went off the rails a bit.

The bottom line is that Mike's method works and he shared it well through his video. Guy approaches mock-ups differently, and has delivered many, many great results. We can use outside inspiration to get us started and to get us to try new methods, but we also need to spend time developing our own methods and chops.

Back to the techniques in the video, I find that I also tend to accent the attack. I was amazed to find that I also give a more subtle attack with strings than brass. I wasn't consciously aware of that before.

One difference is that I often give a swell at the end of a note. If I push it too hard, it sounds really bad. If I don't push it hard enough, it can sound flat. It's really a matter of releasing the note at just the right time.

But, compared to Mike, I'm no keyboard purist. To get just the right sound, I often need to try different articulations, and the only way I can get them "just so" is to work with the mouse. One tip: you can mouse in notes that you can't play, and you can record the mod-wheel live in a second pass. A bit of mousing can optimize the curve when you're looking for a specific result.

The key is to look at MIDI data that you generate from live playing that works well. Pay attention to the timing and velocity of the notes and the mod-wheel curves that sound good. When you use the mouse, don't try to make things perfect. Try to emulate the way that you naturally play when you are playing well.


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

If you notice I was one of the first ones to congratulate Mike on this video. I still say it's extremely helpful. What I added is just something personal, according to my experience. That's all. 

If people can have more than one view about this, it's for the better of this forum and gives the topic broader views. If people like to think I'm attacking and dismiss what I'm saying, and without even enquiring more about it, it's their choice too.


----------



## Mr. Anxiety

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

Well.........then take the floor and tell us where you want to go with this, please.


----------



## futur2

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

guy, it would be more interesting for all of us if you'd tell us how YOU do it. and no, i'm not begging :mrgreen: =o


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

Perhaps at some point on another thread or a video, who knows when. This is Mike's thread, don't want to disrupt it any more with this intermission.


----------



## stonzthro

What's funny about the Guy/Mike banter is reading it while both Avatars are smiling at me...

Mike, thanks for taking the time to put something like this together - I've had many people ask me about this kind of thing and it is nice to have something to point to.

This really is such a great place - nothing else like it.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

Yes, we do seem to have gone a bit far afield here without tons to show for it... so I'll exercise my OP privileges and offer as a final thought that I encourage Guy and anyone else to do videos or tutorials, and share your methods if you feel it's useful. And this certainly won't have been the last of mine. There have been just over 1000 full views/downloads of the video which isn't much, but I like to believe that represents at least a good handful of people who are hopefully having more fun making more expressive music than they were before...


_Mike


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## Ashermusic

I just want to say that knowing how both Mike and Guy work, neither one of them gets it right.








Just kidding


----------



## CJRC

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

Mike, the video is brilliant... count me among the normally silent lurkers who are blown away by your talent and generosity. Bravo!


----------



## mushanga

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**



mverta @ Mon 29 Nov said:


> Flutes in the little Chords section are just straight VSL 3 Flutes, if I remember correctly. Always did like those.



Hi Mike - loved your video and love your music!

Quick question regarding the VSL Flutes you use in your template. Do you load up the a3 ensemble samples or just one flute? I can see in your video that you performed 3-note chords - are these just with a single flute sample loaded as that would create the effect of 3 flutes playing simultaneously? If it were the a3 flutes loaded, that would come to 9 flutes playing every time you played a 3-note chord...I'm sure there are occasions when such an effect is desired, particularly with brass. But strictly speaking when orchestrating, I tend to stick to real numbers as then things can become a bit confusing! Another example is when loading up the VSL epic horns ( a8 ), for if you play chords with these then we can be talking at least 16 or more lots of horns sounding at once...

Any thoughts on this?

Thanks in advance :D


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

Yes I have this thought: it doesn't have to be real, it has to_ sound_ real.

This shit isn't real anyway. Technically, the a3 flutes do indeed make the sound of 9 flutes, I guess, except it doesn't "read" that way; it reads homogeneously like the sound of 3 real flutes, only with more suck. 

My cues always begin on paper adhering to the strictest orchestrational standards, and can be put directly on the stands. But my choice of samples and playing techniques is whatever sounds like it would sound like if it was real. I don't care if it's a solo instrument used in chords, or those 6 trumpets (I only ever write for 3) or 8 horns (I only ever write for 4). If that's what the sample needs to be to work, then I'll use it.


_Mike


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**



mverta @ Thu Dec 09 said:


> Yes I have this thought: it doesn't have to be real, it has to_ sound_ real.
> 
> This shit isn't real anyway. Technically, the a3 flutes do indeed make the sound of 9 flutes, I guess, except it doesn't "read" that way; it reads homogeneously like the sound of 3 real flutes, only with more suck.
> 
> My cues always begin on paper adhering to the strictest orchestrational standards, and can be put directly on the stands. But my choice of samples and playing techniques is whatever sounds like it would sound like if it was real. I don't care if it's a solo instrument used in chords, or those 6 trumpets (I only ever write for 3) or 8 horns (I only ever write for 4). If that's what the sample needs to be to work, then I'll use it.
> 
> 
> _Mike



+1


----------



## rgames

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**



mverta @ Thu Dec 09 said:


> Yes I have this thought: it doesn't have to be real, it has to_ sound_ real.
> 
> This [email protected]#t isn't real anyway. Technically, the a3 flutes do indeed make the sound of 9 flutes, I guess, except it doesn't "read" that way; it reads homogeneously like the sound of 3 real flutes, only with more suck.
> 
> My cues always begin on paper adhering to the strictest orchestrational standards, and can be put directly on the stands. But my choice of samples and playing techniques is whatever sounds like it would sound like if it was real. I don't care if it's a solo instrument used in chords, or those 6 trumpets (I only ever write for 3) or 8 horns (I only ever write for 4). If that's what the sample needs to be to work, then I'll use it.
> 
> 
> _Mike


This is an interesting point: I find that I have to thin out the orchestration when I write for samples - I often have difficulty getting a good sound using standard orchestration practices (especially when doubling lines, strings seem to work out OK but WW and brass often sound better with fewer or no doublings). It's basically a mixing issue.

Maybe fodder for another video 

Great video, by the way.

rgames


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**

Happy New Year, everyone!

Starting this spring - probably March - I'm going to be recording a number of my pieces with a 90-piece group here in LA, at Sony Pictures, with Shawn Murphy, as part of either a webseries or documentary series on filmscoring (haven't decided which yet). My plan is to do 3-4 of these sessions a year, with an aim to truly expose the process, the players, the evolution of an idea from sketch to realization, and provide a behind-the-scenes documenting of all the myriad challenges we face during live performances/recordings, and how they're handled. 

I'm mentioning this now, a couple of months out, to see if there are specific topics or ideas you might want to see highlighted in such a project, and if there are any of the demo pieces posted here which you especially would like to hear fully realized live versions of. 

The sessions will be filmed in their entirety and broadcast unedited as a part of the project, which I think has great potential to be both entertaining and informative, but I'd love to hear your ideas, as well!

Thanks!


_Mike


----------



## Ashermusic

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**



mverta @ Sun Jan 16 said:


> Happy New Year, everyone!
> 
> Starting this spring - probably March - I'm going to be recording a number of my pieces with a 90-piece group here in LA, at Sony Pictures, with Shawn Murphy, as part of either a webseries or documentary series on filmscoring (haven't decided which yet). My plan is to do 3-4 of these sessions a year, with an aim to truly expose the process, the players, the evolution of an idea from sketch to realization, and provide a behind-the-scenes documenting of all the myriad challenges we face during live performances/recordings, and how they're handled.
> 
> I'm mentioning this now, a couple of months out, to see if there are specific topics or ideas you might want to see highlighted in such a project, and if there are any of the demo pieces posted here which you especially would like to hear fully realized live versions of.
> 
> The sessions will be filmed in their entirety and broadcast unedited as a part of the project, which I think has great potential to be both entertaining and informative, but I'd love to hear your ideas, as well!
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> _Mike



Terrific Mike! If you need another kibbitzer in the booth, let me know.


----------



## Christian Marcussen

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Video Added 11/28**



mverta @ Sun Jan 16 said:


> Happy New Year, everyone!
> 
> Starting this spring - probably March - I'm going to be recording a number of my pieces with a 90-piece group here in LA, at Sony Pictures, with Shawn Murphy, as part of either a webseries or documentary series on filmscoring (haven't decided which yet). My plan is to do 3-4 of these sessions a year, with an aim to truly expose the process, the players, the evolution of an idea from sketch to realization, and provide a behind-the-scenes documenting of all the myriad challenges we face during live performances/recordings, and how they're handled.
> 
> I'm mentioning this now, a couple of months out, to see if there are specific topics or ideas you might want to see highlighted in such a project, and if there are any of the demo pieces posted here which you especially would like to hear fully realized live versions of.
> 
> The sessions will be filmed in their entirety and broadcast unedited as a part of the project, which I think has great potential to be both entertaining and informative, but I'd love to hear your ideas, as well!
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> _Mike



No ideas - but I would love to watch it!


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *Announcement 1/16!**

That's terrific Mike, will be looking forward to it. Best of luck with this project!


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## markbnyc

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *Announcement 1/16!**

Great idea, Mike! Looking forward to it!


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *Announcement 1/16!**

Great input, Shawn - tons of useful ideas in there! Part of the reason I'm planning on doing several a year is precisely to cover all these various aspects...


_Mike


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## midphase

How in the world are you financing this?


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## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *Announcement 1/16!**

Some save their pennies for a rainy day; I saved them for orchestral sessions. Although I've worked with smaller groups, I haven't had a full group of this size under the baton for nearly 7 years, now. It took that long to save up. 

But the truth is, I don't think any of us can even _hope_ to get to the level of the greats without a lot of time with the orchestra, so I saved up like this was the college I never went to. I feel like I learn more in 2 hours with this group than in a year of study. I wish we lived 50 years ago, when there was simply no option but to do things live - that constant exposure is how Williams and Goldsmith et. al honed their skills to precision - but we don't. So since nobody's going to send me into the studio 4-5 times a year just to practice, I had to figure out how to do it anyway. I don't have a benefactor or patron or anything like that, but I've had some ideas on how to turn these sessions into just enough of a commodity to fund future sessions. We'll see. Either way, downbeat's coming...!


_Mike

P.S. Incidentally, the top voted-for piece so far is *The Race*, which is funny because I sort of thought of doing that one first, anyway. It's a couple years old and needs to be revamped/reworked in a few respects. Plus, it's hard enough that it'd probably eat up the entire first session. But then again, that may be precisely why it's a good opener. I dunno... still thinking.


----------



## midphase

I hear you about the good ol' times...I would trade up the technology for the old ways of doing things any day.


----------



## musicformedia

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *Announcement 1/16!**

I've just spent about an hour going through this thread and taking everything in. So much useful information here for a novice like myself. Mike you say only 1000 hits on the video - do you mind me asking how long a period that was over? I think making a series of videos and selling them could make you a nice little chunk of money as I know I would happily pay money to see such an informative video like this - probably otheres on here too.

Thanks for all of the information and the original podcast regarding composers who are starting out.

On a side note - do people still think a midi mockup wiki would be useful? I don't mind setting this up if people think it would be helpful - my way of giving back


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## Ashermusic

midphase @ Tue Jan 18 said:


> I hear you about the good ol' times...I would trade up the technology for the old ways of doing things any day.



Even though helping others with technology and writing about technology has become a bigger part of my life than I ever could have imagined, +1.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *Announcement 1/16!**

You're not the only ones, either. In fact, one of the things I want to bring to the forefront is the quiet, seething rift which has grown between young composers and the world-class, veteran players they hire - men and women responsible for some of the most enduring, classic soundtracks that inspired us, and still remain the most memorable and popular today. I've just heard too many stories; been the ears for too many rants - things never said out loud, publicly, for professional reasons, yet very real and very destructive. How well do you think even the best player will perform when they hate the music, have no respect for the composer, and are frustrated to the core with the process? And yet, this represents the majority of the work, now, as far as they're concerned. It's a dramatic rift which I feel needs both venting, and exposure. The fact that on the surface everything appears copacetic is that much more interesting.

Bringing that sort of thing to light on its own can become tiresome and preachy, but when set against the backdrop of contrast; when compared to the lofty heights of musicality and power that these groups are capable of when everything's working together, it reveals how much we've lost, and how much we're in danger of losing. In a world dominated by computers, it's the humanity which is still the most transformative, and contributory. 

People TiVO past the Oscar for film music, mostly. Film composers have absolutely zero cache in Hollywood. One approach to increase core brand value, I suppose, is to form a union and shout about it, and stamp feet and wave arms and present a strength-in-numbers threat.

But I prefer to make the abstract tangible; to the "everyman." People won't pay for something - won't respect something - they don't truly see the value of. And that's up to marketing to provide. There is no absolute value in life; there is only perceived value. There is no reality; merely perceived reality. It's my goal to help shape that perception; not by magic or alchemy, but simply by pulling the curtain back on one of the greatest shows on Earth.



_Mike


----------



## Ed

Mike why dont you put your video on youtube?

Im watching it now and only found it because I saw comments earlier in this thread that said it was there, it was quite buried looking back in the thread.

If you're looking for more hits, that's the way you'd get it potentially. Like this will get far less. In fact buried in this thread Im surprised you got over a hundred. Good video though so far, so it deserves more! It also streams very slowly on your site, youtube will give you fast HD.


----------



## Ashermusic

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *Announcement 1/16!**



mverta @ Wed Jan 19 said:


> You're not the only ones, either. In fact, one of the things I want to bring to the forefront is the quiet, seething rift which has grown between young composers and the world-class, veteran players they hire - men and women responsible for some of the most enduring, classic soundtracks that inspired us, and still remain the most memorable and popular today. I've just heard too many stories; been the ears for too many rants - things never said out loud, publicly, for professional reasons, yet very real and very destructive. How well do you think even the best player will perform when they hate the music, have no respect for the composer, and are frustrated to the core with the process? And yet, this represents the majority of the work, now, as far as they're concerned. It's a dramatic rift which I feel needs both venting, and exposure. The fact that on the surface everything appears copacetic is that much more interesting.
> 
> Bringing that sort of thing to light on its own can become tiresome and preachy, but when set against the backdrop of contrast; when compared to the lofty heights of musicality and power that these groups are capable of when everything's working together, it reveals how much we've lost, and how much we're in danger of losing. In a world dominated by computers, it's the humanity which is still the most transformative, and contributory.
> 
> 
> _Mike



And this is not new. I learned this the hard way many years ago when I asked string players to record while playing along with MIDI string parts. They did not say anything but the air went out of the room and I realized they deeply resented it.

I never made that mistake again. When I combine orchestra with MIDI, they only hear the MIDI parts that they will not be playing and that are important for them to hear.

Kudos to you Mike for doing this.


----------



## David Story

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *Announcement 1/16!**

"pulling the curtain back on one of the greatest shows on Earth. "

Mike, you make great instructional videos. In that form, you'll get an audience for certain.
The greatest show on Earth sounds like a concert documentary, that could reach the common man. 

How about shooting everything, especially the players. Make it more about the performers and their stories. There's a lot of human interest in virtuosos, and they all have stories- even some that could be told in public.

The sessions can be part of the payoff, after we get invested in you and your incredible team.

Just a thought.

And maybe document a session scoring to picture. There've been dvd extras, but take this to the next level. 

How about consulting with a hot director or two.

A few crazy ideas. 

+1 Kudos to Mike!


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *Announcement 1/16!**

Great ideas, David...


@Ed: I avoided YouTube because YouTube can only tell you views - and that may be partial views. I wanted to be able to track who actually took the time to watch it through - who attempted to "save as." 1,000 actual, full viewings or downloads is very different than 1000 YouTube "views." Plus, YouTube can't put it all up as a single piece because of length, which just... I dunno... irks me. Now that its initial run is over, I suppose that's as good an idea as any, though. Just have to split it into two parts.


Thanks!


_Mike


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *Announcement 1/16!**

New podcast: The Future of Virtual Music.

Just a little something that's been on my mind for some time...

Enjoy!


_Mike


----------



## Ed

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *Announcement 1/16!**



mverta @ Thu Jan 20 said:


> Great ideas, David...
> 
> 
> @Ed: I avoided YouTube because YouTube can only tell you views - and that may be partial views. I wanted to be able to track who actually took the time to watch it through - who attempted to "save as." 1,000 actual, full viewings or downloads is very different than 1000 YouTube "views." Plus, YouTube can't put it all up as a single piece because of length, which just... I dunno... irks me. Now that its initial run is over, I suppose that's as good an idea as any, though. Just have to split it into two parts.
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> _Mike



Actually youtube does tell you how long someone has watched a video! It gives you a graph and everything  If lots of people start then click away you can find out.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**

! Huh... did not know that. I guess it's time to check-in on what YouTube is up to these days!


Thanks for the tip!

_Mike


----------



## musicformedia

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *Announcement 1/16!**



mverta @ Thu Jan 20 said:


> New podcast: The Future of Virtual Music.
> 
> Just a little something that's been on my mind for some time...
> 
> Enjoy!
> 
> 
> _Mike



Haha "Hiroshima Toms" lol  I'd buy them too!

Really interesting podcast Mike. Helps me get through the boring day job I'm currently doing to pay the bills 

Emmett


----------



## synergy543

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *Announcement 1/16!**



mverta @ Thu Jan 20 said:


> New podcast: The Future of Virtual Music.
> 
> Just a little something that's been on my mind for some time...


Interesting talk (although I wonder how many music guys relate to the analogy?)



mverta podcast quote... said:


> "Lets get back into the studio again. Lets let this obsession with doing it digitally give way to doing it properly".


I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion nor do I think that has happened in the graphics industry. I think a better analogy would be cell animation. Asking Pixar to get back to the days of hand-painting in the style of the great Disney films (Fantasia, Snow White, etc.). Ain't gonna happen...the transition to digital has been made and its permanent. The "obsession with doing it digitally" has won. Yet, this hasn't precluded the obsession with craftsmanship. The tools may be different, but I think people are being equally creative with the new digital tools as they were in the days of only the brush.

Sampling is here to stay. The technology will change as physical modeling is developed but democratization of music has occurred for better or worse. It enables someone like me (not a skilled orchestrator) and handicaps someone like you who should be in the studio writing for real instruments everyday. But what do we do? I don't think we have control of where things are headed (its certain to be an interesting journey though). The only thing we can each do individually is work on developing our own craft - whether digital or acoustic - and what we each do, is the only way we can shape the future.

btw, I think you should do "Abbey and the Sea", its one of your most creative, emotionally stiring and best works if you assk me.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**

That is not the conclusion I drew in any way. I never suggested sampling was going anywhere; quite the contrary. The toolset is primitive and limited. When it attains a high enough level, the presence of the tools alone won't be enough to sustain a career against more skilled musicians, as it can right now. Eventually, this advanced version of the toolset will find a co-operate place alongside live performance, but no longer be seen as an equal alternative. It will be a complimentary and unique tool. Just as digital effects are, when used properly. 

I know you disagree with my comparison; you've mentioned that before. We can only speak from experience, of course, and mine is as a visual effects artist and visual effects supervisor who has worked on marquee projects such as Harry Potter, Superman Returns, Star Wars, etc., been both employer and employee, visual effects company owner, regular contributor to visual effects publications, consultant, current rendering software developer and friends to dozens of working pros. Your experience, of course, may be greater.

Abby vs. The Sea... perhaps!


Thanks!

_Mike


----------



## synthetic

Interesting talk, Mike. Taking the other side for a moment, you infer that a classically written score is inherently more effective than a modern score. Perhaps those traditional scores are more timeless when listened to on their own, that's up to the listener's taste. But to picture, I'm not sure that I'd rather watch a film with a chase scene scored like Elmer Bernstein. Tastes change of course, but the percussive modern score certainly gives more of a sense of danger. I'm sure that this will continue to evolve. 

Also (humorously) related to your talk: two kids make a pop song in 8 hours. Speaks to the current musical climate and the tools involved in current production. We can't infer anything about their education because it's not discussed or displayed in their result. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PRKfj_5Oso


----------



## bryla

Hey Mike, great listen!

I can't tell you how many times I've been frustrated about up and coming musicians/composers that have responded to the challenge of learning with: What do I need that for/Why do I have to learn that? 
Instead of taking in whatever you can to get your skills up to the level you need, they start questioning what's not in the hype.

I hope your visualization of the MX world will follow the trend in graphics since I am also tired of the successful people being the one with the right plug-in. That's why I quietly and patiently learn my craft. My craft and knowledge will always command the technology as they progress, but if you jump on the bandwagon in the midst of technological progress and lack the understanding of history, your success will probably not withstand the test of time.

Look forward to more podcasts!
Thomas


----------



## mverta

synthetic @ Fri Jan 21 said:


> I'm not sure that I'd rather watch a film with a chase scene scored like Elmer Bernstein. Tastes change of course, but the percussive modern score certainly gives more of a sense of danger.



These aren't mutually exclusive ideas; that's an illusion. You can have the thematic and developmental - let's call it "Cine-Symphonic" chops of Bernstein, done with a modern palette and have the best of both worlds. What we have now are really "epic" cues done by people who have absolutely no idea what to do after 30 seconds, which is why they don't do anything. Lots of ostinatos and loops. In traditional long-form training, you can start with the simplest idea or subject, and develop it nearly ad infinitum, never repeating, always holding interest. That's what makes Williams a Williams, not the melodies - strong as they are - but the actual, literal, musical storytelling.


@bryla - Thanks! More coming!


_Mike


----------



## RiffWraith

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**

Hey Mike - I am a little bit into your vid, where you are talking about c-fading. Two things I wish to thank you for:

1) Doing this in the first place

2) The Stormtrooper head next to your keyboard :lol:

Cheers.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**



RiffWraith @ Fri Jan 21 said:


> 2) The Stormtrooper head next to your keyboard :lol:
> 
> Cheers.



First person to say something!  It's actually on the floor, in a row with 3 others, circled around a full suit of stormtrooper armor. I have so much Star Wars stuff around my office, it was inevitably going to show up in a shot 


Oh, and you're welcome 


_Mike


----------



## DouglasGibsonComposer

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**

I think it is really exciting and inspiring to learn of your recording with the orchestra.

I have 2 cents worth of suggestions on what would catch my interest.

1. One thing that sets the film scoring process apart from "concert" music is the director. I think it would be cool to have someone who is intentionally asking you to make changes to what you have written in front of the orchestra and only speak to you in a dramatic - non musical way. I think seeing "on the fly" changes and how to handle that on the stage would be very interesting to me. Also what your craft responses to dramatic suggestions would be eye opening. I think that having thick skin and knowing what to do when your masterpiece is being asked to be changed in front of the orchestra would be a great watch. Also, I would suggest that you have no idea of what the "director" change would be ahead of time.

2. Texting the upper-limits of a fantastic orchestra. For example what is the fastest tempo possible for string runs. It would be cool to hear the same example in 10 bpm increments, and if the players were willing, what it sounds like when you go over the edge. It could be on 3 or 4 most common mistakes from midi to real. Fastest pizz. lines, interlocking patterns, playing in extreme registers etc. I actually think one or two intentional crash and burns would be very educational as a viewer.

2b. The exact opposite : Unleash the freaks so to speak. If you have the best players in the world really show them off with a concerto for orchestra type passages. Let them shine and amaze us. 

I think the motivation is really admirable and I wish you much success/inspiration with this project.

Just my 2 cents.

Doug


----------



## DouglasGibsonComposer

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**

I think it is really exciting and inspiring to learn of your recording with the orchestra.

I have 2 cents worth of suggestions on what would catch my interest.

1. One thing that sets the film scoring process apart from "concert" music is the director. I think it would be cool to have someone who is intentionally asking you to make changes to what you have written in front of the orchestra and only speak to you in a dramatic - non musical way. I think seeing "on the fly" changes and how to handle that on the stage would be very interesting to me. Also what your craft responses to dramatic suggestions would be eye opening. I think that having thick skin and knowing what to do when your masterpiece is being asked to be changed in front of the orchestra would be a great watch. Also, I would suggest that you have no idea of what the "director" change would be ahead of time.

2. Testing the upper-limits of a fantastic orchestra. For example what is the fastest tempo possible for string runs. It would be cool to hear the same example in 10 bpm increments, and if the players were willing, what it sounds like when you go over the edge. It could be on 3 or 4 most common mistakes from midi to real. Fastest pizz. lines, interlocking patterns, playing in extreme registers etc. I actually think one or two intentional crash and burns would be very educational as a viewer.

2b. The exact opposite : Unleash the freaks so to speak. If you have the best players in the world really show them off with a concerto for orchestra type passages. Let them shine and amaze us. 

I think the motivation is really admirable and I wish you much success/inspiration with this project.

Just my 2 cents.

Doug


----------



## Pando

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**

Mike, the tutorial video is great - thank you for showing your methods in detail.

This is really the key - having real-time control over the dynamics of your instruments, performing them live, and not relying on programming tools to shape the performance.

While you are using a very diverse pallette of samples that you can do crossfading with, do you also use filters (low pass, etc) mapped to the modwheel to bring dynamics to otherwise static samples if you don't have a full dynamic range? Some years ago I grabbed a free sample solo trumpet set from the net (Westgate), ran it through some low pass and resonance filters under a modwheel and recorded it live without further edits very much like you did in your video. It sounded quite realistic (I posted it here somewhere and some folks thought it was some new thing)...

In the future, I would really like to see a video where you record in a short full orchestral piece one instrument at a time until the final product (bad takes and all  ). There is nothing like silently sitting by a master and observing the actual work and the decisions being made along the way - in many ways this would be the best tutorial of them all.

Many Thanks!


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**

Thanks for the suggestions, guys!


As recommended, the video is now on YouTube: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OktpoOztRvQ (V.I. Techniques Part 1)

V.I. Techniques Part 2


Thanks!


_Mike


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## Danny_Owen

Great videos Mike, thanks for doing that! I enjoyed the brass velocity curve explanation, always struggled with that before. And I liked the idea behind playing the glock with two different hands, had never thought of that 

I'm curious though- to do all the real time performances presumably you have to pretty much have no delay between playing a note and the sound coming out. Do you host all your virtual instruments inside the sequencer? Or do you host them in something else like Bidule or VE Pro? And how are you wiring it back into your sequencer if so?


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## Ashermusic

mverta @ Fri Jan 21 said:


> synthetic @ Fri Jan 21 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure that I'd rather watch a film with a chase scene scored like Elmer Bernstein. Tastes change of course, but the percussive modern score certainly gives more of a sense of danger.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These aren't mutually exclusive ideas; that's an illusion. You can have the thematic and developmental - let's call it "Cine-Symphonic" chops of Bernstein, done with a modern palette and have the best of both worlds. What we have now are really "epic" cues done by people who have absolutely no idea what to do after 30 seconds, which is why they don't do anything. Lots of ostinatos and loops. In traditional long-form training, you can start with the simplest idea or subject, and develop it nearly ad infinitum, never repeating, always holding interest. That's what makes Williams a Williams, not the melodies - strong as they are - but the actual, literal, musical storytelling.
> 
> =
> 
> 
> _Mike
Click to expand...


Well said, Mike.

What makes John Powell so terrific IMHO is that while he plays action as well as almost anyone working today, he actually knows how to develop a cue in a musically coherent fashion. Sean Callery consistently did this on "24" also, which considering the deadlines he probably faced was damned impressive.


----------



## David Story

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *Announcement 1/16!**



mverta @ Thu Jan 20 said:


> New podcast: The Future of Virtual Music.
> 
> Just a little something that's been on my mind for some time...
> 
> Enjoy!



Thanks Mike! I enjoyed it a lot - thoughtful, informative and fun. I'm still imagining the 3000 ft drum. How do you play it? Catapult team?

Visual Effects are a great model for where technology is going. New chip designs and coding techniques start there. Audio is well downstream in priorities, IMO. Performance capture for actors seems more accurate, to me, than mockups of music performers. And in the best mocap, live action is blended in, right?

We can see access to libraries getting easier, there are top 10 hits using Apple loops from iLife!

My guess on the choirs everywhere thing. We want a human element in our music. Vocals are a powerful way to add that.
Checking out the new vids now! I'm keeping a eye out for cool set elements, Master Mike


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## Lunatique

Mike, while in terms of ideology, I totally agree with what you believe in, but emotionally, I have mixed feelings, but only because of painful regrets I've had in life.

When I was a child, I fell in love with the piano. Music was my first love, and I begged my mother to allow me to take piano lessons. She refused. As a teenager, I begged again, and she refused. I had no other way of getting access to a piano, or lessons, so essentially, my mother destroyed my dream. She was also physically violent and mentally abusive. It was not a happy childhood/teenagehood.

I turned to art and writing, because all I needed was a pencil and a scrap of paper, so she couldn't stop me even if she tried. She did try to beat it out of me but she failed. I was kicked out of the house at 18 because I wanted to be an artist/writer. I starved for 8 years as a comic book creator/writer/artist, and it wasn't until I got into the video game industry that I actually stopped starving. It was also when I was eighteen that I saved up and bought my first synthesizer and two-track sequencer. For the first time in my life, I was finally able to release all the music I had been playing in my head all those years.

But you know what? It was extremely painful to watch kids who had supportive parents who allowed them to take music lessons, buy them instruments, allowed them to spend time on practicing, and so on. They were allowed to blossom, while I could only watch and feel my dream wither and die. I could try as much as I want, I could never catch up to all the people who have been classically trained since they were children. I don't know if it's even possible for you to understand how devastatingly painful it feels to be in my position. 

Everything I do creatively I taught myself, because I couldn't afford to go to school to learn. I managed to carve out a pretty good career as an artist, and I've reached a point where the fact I'm not "classically trained" as an artist makes no difference whatsoever. In fact I have taught masterclasses at art schools and I think my journey of self-education worked. 

Because I had to try hard in my art career just to stay alive, I never was able to give the necessary time and energy to music. I learned to compose by ear, and that became second-nature to the point that whenever I try to learn sight-reading, I just can't push beyond a certain point because I can compose far faster by ear. I read books on harmony, orchestration, counterpoint, as well as recording, mixing, and mastering, and I really try hard to catch up to all of you classically trained composers. But the truth is, I'll never catch up because music has been a part of your muscle memory and creative language for your entire lives, and you have synapses in your brains that were formed during those formative years of classical training that has become a part of you. I could only wish for that.

I never had the luxury that you guys had, and guys like us don't even dare to dream of having a live orchestra to write for. But you know what? We are damn grateful that today's technology allows us to live out our dream--our passion for creating music. The kind of things I could do today was merely a fantasy when I was younger. Hell, in my fantasy I couldn't have imagined what we have today. For guys like us, composing with sample libraries is already a dream come true, and we likely will never have the opportunity to work with a live orchestra, and we won't even know how to work with one anyway. But does that mean we are irrelevant and our love and passion for music don't count? At our age, we can't just drop everything and use our savings to enroll in a music institute/conservatory and become "properly educated." We can only do what we can with what we have, and learn as much as we can on our own.

Maybe you might say that guys like us can't compete and we're not part of the elite who were classically trained, and that's just too bad because life ain't fair. You'd be right, because no one ever promised us when we were born that we'd have supportive parents who loved us, didn't abuse us, and allowed us to learn and grow in ways that made us feel fulfilled and happy.

Anyway, all I want to say is that the people you look down on--they are often not what you think. They don't "purposely" write bad music. Many of them are just as passionate about music as you are, but they simply weren't as fortunate as you are, since a classical training was out of the question. Many of us do try hard to catch up, and it's very painful when classically trained musicians openly express disdain for us the unfortunate ones. 

This is obviously an open wound for me, because music is my first and true love, but it's also the most painful regret of my life. I should have threatened suicide when my mother refused to allow me to take piano lessons. I should have cut off a toe or an ear just to show her that I f-cking meant it. But as an Asian kid, you don't have those thoughts because they've long been beaten out you. 

I try hard to excel beyond the limits of being self-taught, and I try hard to transcend all the cliches of bad modern scoring, but it's a long and hard road because I don't have the training. 

Mike, I just wanted you to know that we are trying. We are not making bad music on purpose.


----------



## Ashermusic

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**

Your story is very moving and inspiring, Lunatique. I cannot speak for Mike or anyone else but as a classically trained guy who was raised by very supportive parents I have no issue with people like yourself who work hard to learn later what we learned earlier. I also have no problem losing a gig to a guy like you if you convince the director or producer that you are the right guy for the job. I suspect most of us "trained" guys have that attitude.

That does not mean I will like the score :twisted:


----------



## Lunatique

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**



Ashermusic @ Thu Jan 27 said:


> That does not mean I will like the score :twisted:



And that is precisely what I work so hard on--to catch up to the point where people couldn't tell that I'm not classically trained. That's why I study counterpoint, harmony, orchestration...etc. I'm trying to push myself to learn how to sight-read but it's damn hard when you don't have years of piano lessons under your belt. 

I think someone like Danny Elfman is a great example of how far a self-taught guy can go. I think he caught up very nicely to his classically trained peers.


----------



## Ashermusic

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**



Lunatique @ Thu Jan 27 said:


> Ashermusic @ Thu Jan 27 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That does not mean I will like the score :twisted:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think someone like Danny Elfman is a great example of how far a self-taught guy can go. I think he caught up very nicely to his classically trained peers.
Click to expand...


Agreed, but bear in mind, because Danny was a rock star and Tim Burton a fan, he has benefitted from big budgets and terrific orchestration and conducting from folks like Steve Bartek and the late Shirley Walker. 

This takes nothing away from Danny, who has certainly made the most of his opportunities and produced some excellent scores, and he certainly has demonstrated an innate feel for matching music to picture. But he is not a realistic role model for most untrained composers.


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## Lunatique

Well, are there any film composers that were self-taught but have the respect of classical trained composers? Danny is the only one I can think of. Hans Zimmer is self-tauò P   š¢¾ P   š¢ä P   š¿› P   š¿ä P   šä6 P   šäk P   ›


----------



## stevenson-again

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**



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----------



## shadoe42

there is also a third category. those of us who had supportive parents but no money. my parents most likely would have let me take all the music I wanted had they been able to afford it. so it was only later when i went to college on my own that I took any type of traditional music class.. each approach I think has its advantages and its disadvantages.


----------



## Tanuj Tiku

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**

I am not formally trained but I think some people just get too scared of the trained guys. After all, they are also human and do certain things really well because they worked their ass off. 

Now, if you and I can do the same, sure we can catch up. And everyone has a different sound. 

I think we waste too much time thinking about such things. 


The best thing is to be honest to your music, to yourself and just keep writing whatever best you can. If you can bring that honesty to your music, tell a story and have an aesthetic sense of cinema and the neccesary historical perspective - you have just become a film composer.

The only thing musically relevant is sight-reading, harmony and some other basic chops. Once you are seasoned in these areas - there are a whole lot of other areas which most of the even trained composers only learn later in life. 

You dont need to be a pianist to write film music. You could just write really good music without being able to play a lot of it. But of course - a certain level helps. With todays technology - its whatever helps you in putting your absolute ideas across. Thats it. 

To me it does not matter how you compose the music - on the MIDI roll or on paper. If its giving you the story telling, the maturity, the honesty in the music - nobody cares. 

How long did the trained composers study at university? 3 years? 4 years? Thats not a lot. We can give that kind of time ourselves. 

I think learning is a continuous process and the propensity to innovate is a must. 


None of the new trained guys are like Mahler or Beethoven who studied for years at conservatories an wrote music without the deadlines of today and the hustle-bustle of modern life. 


So, I think one should not feel less able or something. Most of us can do something good that the other person cant. It works both ways.

The only thing to remember is to do the best and keep on learning. If you dont know soemthing - go out there and get the research done. 

There is more than 500 years of orchestral music legacy - its not something you can know in a few years. And I dont think that once you are a trained musician, you can write in any style out there. Most people will develop a sound of their own - thats the hope anyway!


Sure Elfman uses orchestrators but how does he then manage to sound Elfman-like? Of course, he writes amazing music and knows what he is doing. Frankly, orchestration is not so difficult that after a whole life time, Elfman would not be able to learn and orchestrate his own stuff.

This is just Hollywood and the crazy deadlines. Yes, he probably did not know how to orchestrate as well but I cannot believe that if he absolutely had to - he would not be able to orchestrate at all today. 

Same with Silvestri - I think he orchestrates a lot more now than he used to earlier. 


Best,

Tanuj.


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**

I just listened to Mikes last audio post on the future of virtual music, and I totally agree. 
For me the compositional aspect takes a fraction of the overall time I spend making a decent production that corresponds to the latest standards, which changes every 3 months. Some of it is progress but a lot of it isn't. Yes, I would enjoy it if we all had similar tools and the focus would be on the writing. I agree, how loud is the epic choir going to get? It's impressive all those decibels but not too artistic, and when this becomes the standards, if your music is based on the writing, it will go unnoticed. I get work because I'm able to pull off some decent virtual tracks, but not because of my writing, even though it does help. So I back up Mikes view on this and hopefully more will with time, even though I'm not very optimistic about this.


----------



## PMortise

Well said Lunatique. Your experience sounds so close to mine (only I grew in NYC) that I could've wrote a lot of what you did. I understand where you're coming from. In my house we actually had a piano and a Hammond L100 organ that I was not allowed to even touch. 


Lunatique @ Thu Jan 27 said:


> Mike, while in terms of ideology, I totally agree with what you believe in, but emotionally, I have mixed feelings, but only because of painful regrets I've had in life.
> 
> When I was a child, I fell in love with the piano. Music was my first love, and I begged my mother to allow me to take piano lessons. She refused. As a teenager, I begged again, and she refused. I had no other way of getting access to a piano, or lessons, so essentially, my mother destroyed my dream. She was also physically violent and mentally abusive. It was not a happy childhood/teenagehood.
> 
> (...)
> 
> But you know what? It was extremely painful to watch kids who had supportive parents who allowed them to take music lessons, buy them instruments, allowed them to spend time on practicing, and so on. They were allowed to blossom, while I could only watch and feel my dream wither and die. I could try as much as I want, I could never catch up to all the people who have been classically trained since they were children. I don't know if it's even possible for you to understand how devastatingly painful it feels to be in my position.
> 
> Everything I do creatively I taught myself, because I couldn't afford to go to school to learn.
> 
> (...)
> 
> Anyway, all I want to say is that the people you look down on--they are often not what you think. They don't "purposely" write bad music. Many of them are just as passionate about music as you are, but they simply weren't as fortunate as you are, since a classical training was out of the question. Many of us do try hard to catch up, and it's very painful when classically trained musicians openly express disdain for us the unfortunate ones.
> 
> (...)
> 
> I try hard to excel beyond the limits of being self-taught, and I try hard to transcend all the cliches of bad modern scoring, but it's a long and hard road because I don't have the training.
> 
> (...).



I love the tools we have today, because without them I couldn't even dream of doing this as a hobby - let alone have aspirations for an actual career some day.

I seriously doubt that anyone with real imaginative chops (regardless of classical training) should worry about a guy like me hitting the scene (yet :twisted. This forum in particular is my favorite to visit for the impressive artistry, knowledge and insight I've found here, and I'm grateful to everyone who has contributed to this forum. What I wouldn't give to have had Mike Verta's V.I. Techniques videos years ago!

I took this from another forum: "When everybody has a Stradivarius, that's when the best players can really shine over the mediocre ones. Great tools make great skills even more outstanding and poor skills even more obvious by comparison. For this reason, when great tools get cheaper, the competition gets tougher for hacks and mediocrities rather than for the real pros." ~~ Dead Man

Again, that quote doesn't apply to anyone on this forum since they not only have respectable chops, but are secure enough to help others along.

Regardless of one's beginning, we all have the ability to write our own ending. I believe that perseverance is the key.


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**

Even though I can sympathize with Lunatique, I'm a bit confused, I don't see how this comes into conflict with what has been said before.


----------



## Lunatique

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**



Guy Bacos @ Thu Jan 27 said:


> Even though I can sympathize with Lunatique, I'm a bit confused, I don't see how this comes into conflict with what has been said before.



It doesn't. I stated right off the bat that I agree completely with Mike's stance, and the only conflict is within myself, emotionally, due to my painful past regrets. Ideologically, I do strive to do what Mike is preaching. It's just painful to see open resentment for composers who never had the luxury of classical training, and are behind the curve in terms of musical knowledge and skill. 

The thing is, while all creative people have a bit of elitism inside of them and have a disdain for the "hacks" of their chosen medium, what many tend to forget or ignore is that some of the so-called hacks are actually just as passionate as the trained guys, and they are striving hard to better themselves. Just because they started late in life or are slower in their progress, does not mean they should be ridiculed and bear such scorn. 

There's also the matter of taste. While Mike may not like the ostinatos, the epic drums, and the gothic choirs, there are actually composers who do genuinely love them and are using them with sincerity in their music. Sure, it's unfortunate that a particular approach becomes popular and everyone's doing it, but does that mean the composers who do love that style should abandon it because everyone else now has become hip to that sound? Some musicians get off on expanding their horizon and musical range, while some choose to remain steadfast in their conviction. Whether it's good or bad is a subjective matter. Some rock bands sound exactly the same now as they did decades ago--is that good or bad? Who can say for sure? Some musicians evolve and then actually seems to get "worse" as their new sound lacks the compelling elements that the previous sound had. Ideologically, evolving and transcending one's limitations is obviously a universally respected idea, and I definitely agree with it, but it's not always a black and white situation.

BTW, I have loved ostinatos ever since I was a kid. It has the kind of hypnotic and funky vibe that I also love in some electronic music, and it's got a similar attitude to funky and rock riffs as well. Should I abandon my love for ostinatos because now everyone else is using them prominently? Are ostinatos inherently "tacky" or do they only seem that way because it's been overused? Were any of the overused techniques/styles/sound tacky when they first surfaced? Let's say the fad changes and then one day no one is using these cliches that Mike mentioned--would it be ok to use them then, if you genuinely do love that sound? Or it's considered old-fashioned by then, and would only be ok to use them after a hundred years have passed? :D


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**

I hear what you're saying but I still don't see how it would be any threat to what you have a passion for, it will still always be there, ostinatos are not an endangered species. I believe the concern is more when things start to get out of hand. There are the people who were deprived of music lessons when they were kids, but there are also the ones who sweated all their lives learning the craft, making little income meanwhile, to finally see that they are no match to the latest fad. That isn't fun either.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**

My goodness; a nerve, struck!

Lunatique, et.al -

Great story, and painful. I feel you. But no more of this "can't" bullshit, okay?  No more, "I'll never be able to." Come on, now! You can learn, you can study, you can improve, always, every day. It may not be in the classical way; you may not go to school. You may cull the information from 1000 different sources instead of a handful of teachers and books, but the essence of skilled writing is experience. Just doing it. Just reading score after score; writing piece after piece, with a mind to improving your language. There are no shortage of us who will help, because we want you liberated, and powerful. 

Now, that being said, you're not "less-than" because you didn't have the same opportunities. There are some completely untrained barely-musicians who have written some really great music. We just have to face the fact that mostly, those things don't withstand the test of time. But that may not be your goal. 

It's easy to stand on a lofty perch and spit on people below. But I prefer to reach a hand down and say, "Come on up, the view's awesome."

But in the end, we all have further heights to attain. I'm really despondent these days because I'm one of those guys who can't look at his own music without seeing it clearly contrasted to the greats, and I'm not one of the greats. So even my best work, to me, is mostly unlistenable, and here I am trying to choose a piece to record in March. Everything posted here in this thread, as far as I'm concerned, is crap, when it really comes down to it. That's just how I feel. It's why I keep trying. My goal, one day, is to write a piece that I can stand. We all have our challenges; none of them are insurmountable. 

It is said that an artist is possessed of a perpetual, divine dissatisfaction. So it's all good...


Thanks for such great posts, guys... in my threads, there is no hijacking, merely "development." 


_Mike


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**

Well, that's a bit too dramatic for my taste, and not seeing eye to eye is nothing new for us. Having taught piano lessons as much to children as to adults for a lot of years, there is still a major difference. I always encouraged adults that they could improve a lot if they wanted to, but it's totally different from the absorption capacity of a child who doesn't have the least worry in the world, while the adult has practically every corner of his mind preoccupied by bills to pay, making sure he constantly provides for his family, pressure from his boss, maybe family issues, and a bunch of other stresses of life. His point about the synapses is also very valid. So I think it's a lot harder than you make it sound, even though I'd always encourage it. The good intentions can be there, but I think you have to be realistic about it too.


----------



## WillMah Gold

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**



> It's easy to stand on a lofty perch and spit on people below. But I prefer to reach a hand down and say, "Come on up, the view's awesome."



I like this attitude a lot! Thank you for this, Mike!


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**

The attitude isn't "always" the problem.....


----------



## Ashermusic

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**



WillMah Gold @ Fri Jan 28 said:


> It's easy to stand on a lofty perch and spit on people below. But I prefer to reach a hand down and say, "Come on up, the view's awesome."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like this attitude a lot! Thank you for this, Mike!
Click to expand...


I actually think that is rather eloquent.


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**

I think people who don't have experience teaching adults tend to have an "idealist" approach. The dream is inspiring, great, but be realistic as well.


----------



## PMortise

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**



Ashermusic @ Fri Jan 28 said:


> WillMah Gold @ Fri Jan 28 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's easy to stand on a lofty perch and spit on people below. But I prefer to reach a hand down and say, "Come on up, the view's awesome."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like this attitude a lot! Thank you for this, Mike!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I actually think that is rather eloquent.
Click to expand...


+1 x 2. o-[][]-o


----------



## Ashermusic

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**



Guy Bacos @ Fri Jan 28 said:


> I think people who don't have experience teaching adults tend to have an "idealist" approach. The dream is inspiring, great, but be realistic as well.



Learning to play an instrument as an adult is quite different IMHO than learning to orchestrate, harmony, counterpoint.

As we get older we lose physical agility and muscle memory more than we lose intellectual dexterity. There is no reason, other than having the commensurate of time to put into it, that i.e someone cannot learn between 24-36 what I learned between 8-20 about this stuff.


----------



## Lunatique

Mike / Tanuj - Thanks for the encouraging words. I have never given up on my dreams and even if I never make a dime from music ever again, I would still go on making music as a passionate hobby because that's what makes me feel fulfilled. Even if I never make the kind of music that would be considered timeless, the joy I get out of making music is what matters to me the most. What percentage of musicians around the world end up making timeless music? Very, very tiny I'd say, but it's the love for music that drives all of us. 

I'll go on learning in whatever way I can, and I'll go on pushing myself to improve because my personality forces me to--it's a simple matter of artistic pride. 

BTW, Mike, of all your music I've heard (I haven't heard your Ultraman score, but I have heard pretty much all you have posted online), your interpretation of the Star Trek theme is still my favorite. The orchestration is just brilliant. But I suspect you'd much rather record an original piece?

Guy - With age, I've had to learn to be more pragmatic, and what you mentioned about the difference between how children and adults learn is exactly the cause of my painful regret (although it wasn't something I could've controlled). But I know I'm far from reaching my adult potential and I still have so much I could improve on, and it's going to be a life-long journey.


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**



PMortise @ Fri Jan 28 said:


> Ashermusic @ Fri Jan 28 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WillMah Gold @ Fri Jan 28 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's easy to stand on a lofty perch and spit on people below. But I prefer to reach a hand down and say, "Come on up, the view's awesome."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like this attitude a lot! Thank you for this, Mike!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I actually think that is rather eloquent.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> +1 x 2. o-[][]-o
Click to expand...



Well I prefer to say, I have a family to feed, I'll do my best with the little time I have now to set my goals higher.


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**



Ashermusic @ Fri Jan 28 said:


> Guy Bacos @ Fri Jan 28 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think people who don't have experience teaching adults tend to have an "idealist" approach. The dream is inspiring, great, but be realistic as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Learning to play an instrument as an adult is quite different IMHO than learning to orchestrate, harmony, counterpoint.
> 
> As we get older we lose physical agility and muscle memory more than we lose intellectual dexterity. There is no reason, other than having the commensurate of time to put into it, that i.e someone cannot learn between 24-36 what I learned between 8-20 about this stuff.
Click to expand...


That really has nothing to do with it, IMO. Sorry. Learning is learning.


----------



## Ashermusic

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**



Guy Bacos @ Fri Jan 28 said:


> PMortise @ Fri Jan 28 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ashermusic @ Fri Jan 28 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WillMah Gold @ Fri Jan 28 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's easy to stand on a lofty perch and spit on people below. But I prefer to reach a hand down and say, "Come on up, the view's awesome."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like this attitude a lot! Thank you for this, Mike!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I actually think that is rather eloquent.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> +1 x 2. o-[][]-o
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Well I prefer to say, I have a family to feed, I'll do my best with the little time I have now to set my goals higher.
Click to expand...


As Robert Browning said, "Ah,a man's reach should exceed his grasp." 

This is true for any age IMHO. Agreed all?


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**

I've taught piano to adults for 20 years, I think I may know something about it. Of course you will learn, but it's totally different. Geeze! Why this stubbornness?


----------



## Ashermusic

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**



Guy Bacos @ Fri Jan 28 said:


> I've taught piano to adults for 20 years, I think I may know something about it. Of course you will learn, but it's totally different. Geeze! Why this stubbornness?



Are you talking to me?  

I also teach piano to adults, 3 doctors actually, and in all 3 cases the physical challenges are more daunting to them than the intellectual challenges, although counting does seem to be an issue for them :lol:


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**

And muscles are commanded by which part of your body?


----------



## Ashermusic

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**



Guy Bacos @ Fri Jan 28 said:


> And muscles are commanded by which part of your body?



Yes, but in a young person when the brain sends the command, the muscles comply. In an older one, not so much. Which is why getting to my age sucks 

Anyway, my point is that if the OP or anyone else his age is willing to work as hard as I did in college to learn orchestration, harmony, counterpoint, etc., he can learn what I learned in college and from Albert Harris.

It isn't rocket science. I know some terrific composers and musicians who apart from music are not all that sharp.


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**

That's true, agree, but the reason for that, is because much of the stress in life, over the years has stiffen our bodies, our muscles, it's not just age. Most children under the age of 2 or 3 have still the full potential of being great pianists, but as they grow, they become more tense in the arm, a bunch of reasons for that, some don't, and they have an easier time playing piano. The more they age, the more this technique become impossible. So although this looks like a physical thing, it's not really, it's still a mind thing, habits... And the mind probably operates like that in a general way as we age, in different capacities, except for your 3 doctors.  

I didn't have 3 doctors, but 3 plumbers.


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**

Jay, did you know there is no difference between the hand muscles of a pianist and of a non pianist person? This has been proven in autopsies.


----------



## rgames

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**

I'm not so sure that mental capacity is constant; I think it starts to tail off through mid life.

If you look at creativity in music, science, etc. most of the really great work is done by people in their 20's and 30's.

For example, the average age of the winner of the Nobel prize in physics is something like 50. And the work usually takes 20 years or so to cycle through the scientific community and gain acceptance that it is worthy of the award.

I don't know how you'd measure it in music but I can say that my favorite works generally were done by people before they reached age 45.

Certainly not an absolute, but I think it is a trend. After all, the mind is the second thing to go, right? 

By the way - rocket science is not hard. Rocket *engineering* is hard, but the science is actually quite easy. 

rgames


----------



## Ashermusic

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**



Guy Bacos @ Fri Jan 28 said:


> Jay, did you know there is no difference between the hand muscles of a pianist and of a non pianist person? This has been proven in autopsies.



No I was not. Interesting!


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**



Ashermusic @ Fri Jan 28 said:


> Guy Bacos @ Fri Jan 28 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jay, did you know there is no difference between the hand muscles of a pianist and of a non pianist person? This has been proven in autopsies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No I was not. Interesting!
Click to expand...


There, so now you could start on Rach 3. :wink:


----------



## autopilot

Ah the Rach ...

That'll stretch you...


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**

bucketoffish


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**

In December, a friend called me with an emergency gig. The about-to-debut NASA touring museum exhibit "A Human Adventure" needed new music to underscore the narration for the various galleries. A cool assignment, for one of my favorite genres. The catch: they needed approximately 17 minutes of music written and performed... in 21 hours.

The list of things I hate about that sort of situation is long, obviously, but the one thing I truly appreciate about it is that it forces me to go with my first, gut instinct, for there is literally no time to think twice. Trickier still is that the music had to underscore narration, which presents unique challenges structurally and orchestrationally so the two elements don't fight. It's always better to write music which can co-exist in the mix, versus having to make the mixer choose which slider gets pulled back, because it'll always be the music.

It's a bit rough around the edges, especially performance-wise, but the show must go on. And it did. Enjoy.


NASA - A Human Adventure
_Selected Cues_

Introduction
The Gantry
The Dreamers
Go Fever
The Pioneers
Innovation
The Next Generation


_Mike


----------



## madbulk

Remarkable.
They have to be beside themselves happy.
I want terribly to know what you charged them for that.


----------



## impressions

big, big sound and composition. it feels like an alien has landed and shown me how can music be composed light years away from my level.


----------



## David Story

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New NASA Stuff 2/8!**

Sounds glorious, exceptional orchestration and mix. Thank You Mike.

I know it's about pleasing the client. But I will say that the millions who see the exhibit are in for a treat.

"Through hardships to the stars"


----------



## Steve Martin

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New NASA Stuff 2/8!**

Hi Mike,

just sounds fantastic. Thanks for sharing these with us. 


best regards,


Steve :D


----------



## JBacal

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New NASA Stuff 2/8!**

Impressive achievement! Now if you really want to prove you're worth your salt, for your next assignment you need to compose and produce 21 hours of music in just 17 minutes!! :lol: 

Best--
Jay


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New NASA Stuff 2/8!**

Oh, come on, Jay. That was easy!










Thanks, everyone, for the kind words! Oh, and @madbulk - it was basically a Christmas present to my friend... 


_Mike


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New NASA Stuff 2/8!**

Hey, incidentally, does anyone know a good flash/web designer/developer? I have a single, custom page of demos I need to do for some VIP's, and I know next to nothing about this stuff, sadly. I have a few design directives for it, but I'm sure it'd be cakewalk for a pro...

Thanks!

_Mike


----------



## IvanP

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New NASA Stuff 2/8!**



mverta @ Wed Feb 09 said:


> Oh, and @madbulk - it was basically a Christmas present to my friend...
> 
> _Mike



Awesome work, Mike...you do have chops, that's for sure...

But I was really surprised about this...I guess you'll have royalties collected for this, wont you? Otherwise I'd really would like to know how such a hard work for such a public event (which means it should have a budget) is meant to be free, I think it does open a nice discussion about receiving money for our work VS doing things we like VS nonsense deadlines  (sorry for highjacking your thread, btw!)

Best,

Ivan


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New NASA Stuff 2/8!**

The dynamic was thus: my friend labored for more than a year putting the exhibit together. The only part of the exhibit beyond his responsibility was the audio. They spent the budget on another composer, in whose work everyone was ultimately unanimously disappointed. However, the other producers were content to throw their arms up and say, "Oh, well," rather than attempt to re-budget the music portion, though they were of course not opposed to having new music for the exhibit. So my friend asked me, with no real pressure, if I could help. I could, so I did. After the fact, the producers came up with truly token money in gratitude, and the fabled promise of future work. But this one I did for an old friend. And it doesn't always have to be about money. 

I try to keep enough coming in to be able to afford to that sort of thing. This year I could pull it off, and it was for a good cause. Philosophically, I believe you don't get what you deserve, you get what you accept, and I could talk at length about my feelings about getting paid and the value of our work. 

In fact... podcast time:

Getting Paid



_Mike


----------



## IvanP

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New NASA Stuff 2/8!**

Thks for sharing, Mike 

Listening to the podcast as I write


----------



## IvanP

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New NASA Stuff 2/8!**

Mike, I am really diggin your podcast...there's something that caught my attention:

The "walking away" from jobs when it doesn't meet enough criteria...what do you think is the "diplomatic" attitude that may ultimately lead to what you say, i.e., finally getting the money 'cos they do find that, after all, it is you who they want...

I've been there myself, but I always feel that using the "I need more money to pay my bills" answer is a bit harsh on the communication part, specially when they enter in a "personal" attitude like "but we really like how you work, and (for ex.) 2500 € is not that bad for a 3 weeks work, (or...I only have 1000 € but I'll have more on the next project), "please, we are friends", etc. 

How do you usually respond to that without having to play the "let's be friends alright" but nor the "hey, I'm cold as a pro" and not having them think you just might be a bit "too greedy" or unthankful bastard for not wanting the gig? 

Thks


----------



## Hannes_F

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Podcast 1/20!**



mverta @ Tue Feb 08 said:


> NASA - A Human Adventure
> _Selected Cues_
> 
> Introduction
> The Gantry
> The Dreamers
> Go Fever
> The Pioneers
> Innovation
> The Next Generation
> 
> 
> _Mike



FASCINATING!


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New NASA Stuff 2/8!**



IvanP @ Wed Feb 09 said:


> I always feel that using the "I need more money to pay my bills" answer is a bit harsh on the communication part, specially when they enter in a "personal" attitude like "but we really like how you work, and (for ex.) 2500 € is not that bad for a 3 weeks work, (or...I only have 1000 € but I'll have more on the next project), "please, we are friends", etc.
> 
> How do you usually respond to that without having to play the "let's be friends alright" but nor the "hey, I'm cold as a pro" and not having them think you just might be a bit "too greedy" or unthankful bastard for not wanting the gig?
> 
> Thks



I am extremely open and earnest with clients and prospective clients. I tell them from the start, and from the heart, that I only want to work on their projects if I'm going to do my best work for them; if I'm truly excited, motivated and inspired. They deserve nothing less. No matter what the money is, if I'm not ready to live and breathe it, then I'd be doing themselves and myself a disservice by taking it. And if it's the money that breaks the deal, then that's what breaks the deal. Not because it's not enough money, but because being underfunded will erode my passion for whatever reason, and that's not right to do to them or myself. 


To date, I have never had a client take that poorly. Most of them hit me up later for other projects, when they have more of a budget. Or, sometimes they ask anyway, and they hit me at a time when I can afford to do it anyway, and don't mind. It's gone both ways. To me, what's important is that they know the truth - that I'm not a mercenary, and that it isn't about the money, but the money matters; it matters because it affects the work, and I won't compromise the work.


YMMV. I don't know how all that would go if I didn't truly mean it. But I do, so... 

@HannesF: 






...thanks? 


_Mike


----------



## IvanP

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New NASA Stuff 2/8!**

Well put, Mike, thks for sharing it 

Ivan


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New NASA Stuff 2/8!**

My God, man...  

Your question goes way beyond mere workflow, and into the murky depths of where we get our inspiration from, and how we keep in the good graces of the Muse so she does not abandon us.  It would take a tome to answer your question, so please settle instead for a caffeine-fueled 25-minute ramble during which I actually manage to answer your question, ultimately.

The Mind's Ear


_Mike


----------



## rpaillot

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New NASA Stuff 2/8!**

I'm really curious of what samples you're using for the brass parts ...


----------



## Dracarys

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New NASA Stuff 2/8!**



rpaillot @ Thu Feb 10 said:


> I'm really curious of what samples you're using for the brass parts ...




So am I, but maybe special brass, or brass 1 or 2 from vienna?


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New NASA Stuff 2/8!**

My brass instruments are made of layers of original VSL Symphonic Cube samples, heavily modified, and more recent VSL releases like Epic Horns and Fanfare Trumpets. If you listen to the original release of their Three Trumpets, it's very different from the one you might download today. Better in many respects, worse in others. Ultimately, lots of layering, with each layer being EQ'd separately, and in some cases, sent to slightly different reverb is what you're hearing. 

Thanks!

_Mike


----------



## Hannes_F

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New NASA Stuff 2/8!**



mverta @ Wed Feb 09 said:


> @HannesF:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...thanks?
> 
> 
> _Mike



HAHAHA

no, really, amazing work, from top to bottom.


----------



## ChrisAxia

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New NASA and Podcast Stuff 2/10**

Amazing work on the NASA stuff, Mike! I found myself agreeing with so much of what you say in your podcasts. Now, if only I could create music as good as yours...keep up the excellent work!!

~Chris


----------



## Dracarys

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New NASA and Podcast Stuff 2/10**

Ah mixing, it's a love hate relationship


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New NASA and Podcast Stuff 2/10**

A friend of mine is working on a cutscene for a game - a sequence about a displaced people forced to head out to the stars in desperate search of a new home. Since I don't normally write in this style, I thought this short piece might be worth posting. Enjoy.

Event Horizon


_Mike


----------



## Jem7

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New NASA and Podcast Stuff 2/10**



mverta @ 18/2/2011 said:


> A friend of mine is working on a cutscene for a game - a sequence about a displaced people forced to head out to the stars in desperate search of a new home. Since I don't normally write in this style, I thought this short piece might be worth posting. Enjoy.
> 
> Event Horizon
> 
> 
> _Mike



Sounds great. That delay synths remembered me the Inception in some places 
The chinese kinda flute is very exotic.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 2/18**

That's probably the U2-esque guitar stuff you're hearing... a relatively clean guitar tone with delay, etc. 

_Mike


----------



## Jem7

Oh yeah. Interestingly I wasn't sure if it's a guitar or synth as a guitarist


----------



## Ashermusic

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 2/18**



mverta @ Fri Feb 18 said:


> That's probably the U2-esque guitar stuff you're hearing... a relatively clean guitar tone with delay, etc.
> 
> _Mike



It gives the piece a certain Edge.....sorry, couldn't resist.


----------



## Lunatique

Mike, how long did it take you to do the NASA music? 

I just listened to your compositional podcast, and I smiled when you talked about how good scores appear a certain way visually. Sakamoto Ryuichi once mentioned that he sees musical information as visual shapes sometimes, and he's also a visual artist on top of being a composer.

I have this strange way of laying out the arrangement structure of pieces, where I would write it out almost like a story synopsis in bullet points. For example, I might write:

-The intro starts out with a low timpani rumble, and brass swell.

-Faint synth 16th note bleep with slowly opening up filter fades in.

-Tremolo high strings fade in. Goes from harmonic to dissonant, setting the mood for tension.

And so on.

I think part of it is because that's how I write down ideas as a writer. All my novels and screenplays begin life that way, with important plot points and character development ideas listed as bullet points. This is kind of like how you just scribble on the staff paper even though you don't really have concrete ideas for the melody or harmonic structure yet.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 2/18**

NASA happened in 21 hours - it was an emergency job for a friend.

As for your compositional process - sounds good to me! Whatever works, I say. 

_Mike


----------



## Lunatique

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 2/18**



mverta @ Wed Feb 23 said:


> NASA happened in 21 hours - it was an emergency job for a friend.



I thought you had meant that they needed the thing done in 21 hours, but I wasn't sure if you actually took the whole 21 hours to do it. For all I know, you could've done it in 10 hours, being the monster that you are. :D


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches - *New Piece 2/18**

 Oh, yes, I used every second of the time. I was still uploading tracks as I was bouncing others.

_Mike


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *New Stuff 2/27**

*Live Session Update*

Well, after having been bumped for March and April, I've finally got a new date in early May for the live session.

After much deliberation, I decided the work to record would be, "The Race," which I had originally written as a demo piece in 2006 or 2007. It's a 6 1/2 minute film-cue-like suite which should prove quite challenging to get done in a couple of hours. Of course, as soon as I went back and looked at it, I thought parts of it were in serious need of revising, and overall the entire orchestration could be improved. I've spent the last few days doing that, and performing a sketch mock-up. So my workflow plan is basically this:


Sketch Mock-Up
|
Score
|
Revised Final Mock-Up
|
Session
|
Comparison

I'll post updates as I go. Though this first sketch is obviously very rough - just first pass performances and lots of clams, etc. - it's enough for me to go on. As it goes down on paper, I'll make adjustments here and there, I'm sure. And those changes should be clearly reflected in the "real" mock-up which I'll have together before the session.


_Mike


----------



## David Story

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 3/27**

Sounds fabulous. I love the original mock-up, this is more emotional and rich. The live version will be stunning. Best luck with music-prep.


----------



## germancomponist

Sounds sooo good, Mike!

Can`t wait to listen to the live version. What a cool compare with.

Good luck and many thanks to you for doing all this!

Gunther


----------



## Ed

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *New Stuff 2/27**



mverta @ Sun Mar 27 said:


> Sketch Mock-Up
> |






:shock: Sounds awesome! Look forward to the live version.

You really nail that Williams sound.


----------



## JBacal

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 3/27**

Exciting, big cinema music! I'm looking forward to the next installments.

Best,
Jay


----------



## DouglasGibsonComposer

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 3/27**

Bravo ! Sounds great


----------



## Steve Martin

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 3/27**

Hi Mike,

sounds great! Wow!! What great writing, and the orchestration is superb!


thanks for sharing this with us.


best,

Steve :D


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 3/27**

Thanks, guys. 238 measures, 6'23". And I'm a brand-new Sibelius user, meaning I can do it, I'm just not super fast at it. This should be "fun"! 


_Mike


----------



## shadoe42

Mike have I mentioned how much I hate you?  

Great stuff. I always look forward to your updates.


----------



## robibla

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 3/27**

This thread was an amazing read! Mike your compositions are phenomenal and your advice, invaluable! Thanks,

Blake


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 3/27**

One small update for you, one giant step forward for me. Finally finished the damn thing.  Probably. There's one note that's killing me (honestly) and I'm forcing myself to live with it for a few days. Anyway:


Sketch Mock-Up
|
http://www.mikeverta.com/Posts/The_Race_15gx.pdf (Score)*
|
Revised Final Mock-Up
|
Session
|
Comparison


This latest, "final" mock-up is sans reverb. ER's only. I do that because when testing out orchestrations, I don't want anything to hide in the reverb tail. If it works naked, it usually works live.


_Mike



*I was hoping to put up the entire score, but there has been some publishing interest (See? There _is_ a God) so I'm only able to post this snippet.


----------



## dannthr

Great job, man!

I am a fan of process and watching other people work--something I really enjoy--so I am digging this right now. 

Cheers,


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/17**

Thanks! This latest update will probably be the last until the session/comparison, though I'm meeting with the concertmaster tomorrow night to go over some of the bowings. No better way to learn how to write for an instrument than to study with a master!

_Mike


----------



## germancomponist

+1 what Dan said, Mike!

Thanks for sharing!


----------



## synergy543

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/17**

Mike its sounding great so far already and will be most interesting to compare with the orchestra. However, the link to your score is only one page? It sure would be nice to see the entire score if its possible.

Will you be conducting?


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/17**

I will not be conducting; my recordings are conducted by my once-college-instructor-turned-best-man-at-my-wedding, Neal Desby. There are two reasons, in order of significance to me: 1) I am not a world-class conductor. (Yet?) The orchestra is comprised of absolute best-of-the-best, and I'm not going to deign to pretend I deserve to stand in front of them at that level. Nor am I going to subject myself to the deserved criticism of sub-par conducting which I've heard them talk about incessantly. If most of the young guys heard what is said behind their backs, they'd be rightfully humiliated. My music doesn't need a competent stick waver. It needs a great conductor. I'm working on it. But it's a beautiful, complex discipline.

2) It's a recording; not a performance. And we're on the clock. What matters is not how it sounds in the room, but how it sounds in the control room. It's faster for me to be in the booth hearing the recording, versus being in the room and having to take time to go listen to playback. For the initial half-dozen passes or so, I'm in the room making corrections and comments, for speed's sake. But once they've got it under their fingers and any coarse adjustments are made, I head to the booth to hear what we're actually getting.



_Mike


----------



## synergy543

Makes good sense Mike. Conducting is the skill we don't really get any practice with working with only samples. We may learn about timing, balance and expression. But we don't learn how to inspire and be tactful with live players. Samples are so obedient always.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/17**

In the live environment awaits treasures undreamed of, virtually. Two of my favorites:


 Articulations. The deepest, darkest, and most powerful alchemy, I think. Subtler and more devious than orchestration, I believe the musical and psychological synergy of articulation markings and notation is the x-factor which separates a good performance from a life-changing one. I've become obsessed with them in recent years, as I've seen even slight changes utterly transform the way my pieces are realized. I've been meeting with many players, and studying the way they interpret markings. It's never literal; it's usually context-dependent, and biased by many factors particular to the instrument, to what's "en vogue," playing-wise... lots of things. Orchestration, by comparison, to me, is actually a far simpler discipline, and even _that_ I figure I'll never master. It's a cousin of the art of notation, which in a session context is about getting sight-reading players to get the part right, asap. Violations of enharmonic consistency are almost the norm. If the piano player will balk at the Cb or E# for even a second, write B or F Natural, and get through the cue. Same with decisions to beam or not beam rest groups, or even choose time signatures which make the music feel less "complex." Subtle, psychological arts. I love them! The handful of generic articulations we get with samples bear little relation to the ever-changing interpretations and sounds of their real-world counterparts.


Conducting. The dirty little secret is: most session players want a click so they can ignore the distracting arm-flailing of the conductor. Conducting looks like nothing, really, when it can be everything. Like articulation markings, a great conductor off the click can take a piece places it can never go with one on.


It's funny, but outside of Conrad Pope, I haven't heard many people evangelizing the importance of having experience playing in an orchestra. A lot of us don't actually have much experience with what things can, should, or do often sound like in full context, to say nothing of knowing what the social dynamics are like for, say, being a drummer in the percussion section. What do those guys like in a score? What do they hate? Knowing that stuff can also make all the difference, just all of it. It changes how they play. This is why I very much write music from the player, backward, if you will. If you haven't played in an orchestra for any length of time, and don't play an instrument at that level, personally I would beg or blow whoever was necessary to let me sit in on rehearsals for a symphony, or for sessions. Or ask instructors at universities to let you be a fly on the wall during lessons for performance majors. Listen to what sort of things they practice, watch out for, struggle with, etc. All of these sorts of things help insure you are using every tool available to bring the music in your head into the real world, intact. Our session players are a far more agreeable breed than the symphony players. Session people will be careful not to bite the hand that feeds them, lest they stop getting calls. But if a regular symphonic group decides they don't like you, forget it. It's over before it starts. Even some greats, like Berstein, have had to throw in the towel at times, because a particularly hostile crowd just wasn't going to bring it for him. But even among session players, how they feel about you, and how they feel about your music, utterly changes how your music comes across. And they can see through you like glass; they know exactly what you can, and can't do. They know who belongs there, and who's batting minor-league in a major-league stadium.

When you really think about how many disciplines go into a truly moving, enduring piece of orchestral music - from the solid theoretical basis which informs the piece's subjects and counterpoint, to the arts of orchestration, notation, articulation, and the psychological understanding of the players, plus the ability of a great conductor to pull it all together and shape it, all of which utterly transform the final product - you realize just how impossible a burden it puts on virtual instruments to try and replicate that final product. There is no approximating the beautiful complexity of human interpersonal dynamics, which can be argued is the very soul of music.


_Mike


----------



## David Story

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/17**

Eloquent writing, Thank You Mike!

Only a master of mock-ups can be credible today in saying that live performers are the very soul of music.

When John Williams taught at USC, his first piece of advice was to play other composer's music in an orchestra. He offered to share his experiences as a session player. No one expressed interest, so he moved on. Hope people are interested here.

I get that the players are better performers than all but a handful of composer/conductors. But this has always been true. Players need to glean what they can, and be forgiving. And composers need to be humble. I know I'm a dreamer.






Music is a social activity, I see the composer audience and performers at the core. It's not a one-man operation.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/17**

Williams himself said the audience completes a sort of Holy Trifecta of music. I believe his word for the connection between composer, performers, and audience was a nexus; an integral part of the process. 

_Mike


----------



## Casey Edwards

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/17**



mverta @ Mon Apr 18 said:


> Williams himself said the audience completes a sort of Holy Trifecta of music. I believe his word for the connection between composer, performers, and audience was a nexus; an integral part of the process.
> 
> _Mike



I remember reading this or hearing this in a video somewhere and it's such a great and interesting way to think about the process of composition. I also enjoy his view point on being a performer in this particular video (go to about 2:50):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzeIkREjFMI&feature=related

I played brass for 4 years in middle school into high school, guitar since 2002ish, and piano since I started my University training in 2005, so I've got a bit of mixed variety in understanding players. I also wrote a short tone poem for my university orchestra last year and the experience was excellent. The players as a whole were on a lower to mid level of playing, but still, talking to players and dealing with REAL people was a great way to learn to solve real problems and try to avoid them later on. 


Also, Mike, I have to say I'm very impressed with your piece of music here as well as your other music posted here. I have to say I'm also very glad you posted a score (even if it's only the first page for now). I almost always try to make a polished score for all of my traditional orchestral pieces just for a self check and good practice. I ALWAYS have a sketch or short score of some sort on paper, it really helps me guide my voicing and it's a nice catalog of my ideas. Keep it coming!!!


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/17**

Thank you, Casey. I just finished reading through all 139 bars your Circus Macabre piece. Dig it!


_Mike


----------



## David Story

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/17**



Casey Edwards @ Mon Apr 18 said:


> mverta @ Mon Apr 18 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Williams himself said the audience completes a sort of Holy Trifecta of music. I believe his word for the connection between composer, performers, and audience was a nexus; an integral part of the process.
> 
> _Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I remember reading this or hearing this in a video somewhere and it's such a great and interesting way to think about the process of composition. I also enjoy his view point on being a performer in this particular video (go to about 2:50):
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzeIkREjFMI&feature=related
Click to expand...


The Triad of composer-performer-audience *is* music. Lose the audience, it's a rehearsal. Lose the performer, you become an entertainer. Lose the composer, it's a jam. All fine pursuits, but I prefer the musical energy of that nexus.

When you add an engineer, it can distract from the music, and focus on just sound. I think that's where we're at today. Though you're an exception, Mike. We like that your music is more important than the technology.

Casey, that's a great documentary, with so few views. JW spoke like a composer, and you can see him performing. What a sensitive accompanist. Other musicians like to play with him because he has his part down, and can react well to what you're doing.

Do you still play in bands today?


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/17**

Yes, JJP - your mileage may vary. I personally have only done one session outside of LA, and that was overseas, and, with an exception for the LSO, is probably the last time I'll put myself through that. Film music is a very specific idiom, and the material I write - as player-friendly/sweet spot as I struggle to make it - usually ends up needing a pretty special group to pull off, and own it.

I met with my Concertmaster last night (he's JW's, too - heard some interesting stories/dirt about _War Horse_. Ahh, the book I could write...  ) and we read through The Race, looking at articulations, etc. We talked a lot about the "intention" of articulations being what they look for, mainly, because they've given up expecting the literal bowing indications or slurs to be right. In other words, if you slur an entire bar at Q=100bpm, at forte, they take that to mean you want the whole passage loud, but legato, when in truth, that can't be done in a single bow, and would have to be slurred in groups of two, or not at all, etc. I asked him about that; how they feel about getting that sort of impossible notation, versus getting one which understood the instrument better. His response was, predictably, that they immediately warm to the music and the composer more when it's that much more clear he knows what he's doing, and it makes the session go faster, smoother, and allows the group to get to the finer points of the performance more efficiently.

But, he said, it's become so rare, they just usually take care of a lot of stuff "behind the scenes," and the composer never does, nor has to, know about it. He said that, ultimately, 90% of what they play now, expression-wise, isn't usually what was on the paper. This isn't brought up in the session, for a ton of obvious reasons, but the downside (upside?) for the composers is they never really know that's the case; they might think they actually got it right!

I asked him how it applies to JW, who obviously gets his bowings and articulations right, and he said that at some point - a very nitpicky, "violinist" point - JW doesn't care about what the section has to do to get the intention right, either; that they're free to change a bowing if not explicitly marked without checking with him, but if they do, they'd better be damn sure what they choose is right, 'cause he'll catch it. So even at the top of the food chain, skill-wise, there's still some understanding that nobody knows how to bow better than a virtuoso violinist, so there's some leeway there. But of course, the closer you get - the more you understand the instrument - the better.

As grateful and appreciative as I am for all the discussion and information I can glean from those sorts of meetings/rehearsals, I have to say the best part was hearing the violin part for The Race, live, for the first time.  I lose energy for my own work very quickly, but that sort of thing is a real shot in the arm 


David, I'm not sure if you were asking me or Casey if we still play in bands, but I don't get to play live anywhere near as much as I used to. But the time I spent as a studio player, and touring my jazz albums as a front man for two years were both absolutely invaluable, maybe crucial, parts of building my core sensibilities.


_Mike


----------



## Casey Edwards

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/17**

Yeah, I'm not sure who the question was directed to either, but I'll answer anyways. The simple answer is no, I don't play in bands anymore. I played in my High School Jazz band as a guitarist then went on to do some great small tour shows and studio work with these guys: BandLeGrand.com. They have a really hybrid/retro sound. Like someone threw The Beatles, Queen, ELO, and Jerry Lee Lewis into a pot and said listen! He graduated and moved to LA and I decided to finish my degree instead of going, so as of late all I do is study composition and orchestration like a mad man, while preparing for my piano recital and composition recital and other oddities I need before I can graduate. I also don't have a career in music so I have to work 25-35 hours elsewhere making ends meet while I provide for my family (I have a 3 month old daughter!), so there isn't much free time for anything other than what I know I need to do in preparation for a future career. However, I do know my university orchestra director because he taught me conducting for 2 semesters and he knows I like to be a "fly on the wall" at rehearsals when I can make it and he doesn't mind at all. It's one thing to see the performance and another to see it come together. It's really an invaluable learning perspective that listening with score may not ever provide in your studies. 

Of course, I'm only 23 and haven't experienced a smidgen of what people like Mike have and I'm really only just another guy trying to make it somewhere by thinking of everything I have to do to be a worthwhile composer and always trying to stay a step ahead of that because quite frankly, besides luck, there is no other way.


----------



## David Story

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/17**

I collect the parts at the end of a session, and study the markings players made. That's almost as good as having a one-on-one.





The question was for Casey, 'cause I know Mike paid his dues playing many sessions, often his own work. Appreciate both replies, thanks.


----------



## JJP

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/17**



mverta @ Tue Apr 19 said:


> they just usually take care of a lot of stuff "behind the scenes," and the composer never does, nor has to, know about it. He said that, ultimately, 90% of what they play now, expression-wise, isn't usually what was on the paper. This isn't brought up in the session, for a ton of obvious reasons, but the downside (upside?) for the composers is they never really know that's the case; they might think they actually got it right!



David's point about looking at the markings on the parts can be valuable for just this reason! Just yesterday I had a session where I accidentally wrote a low Eb for the tenor bones. (Can happen when you're working quickly. :oops: ) Fortunately one of the guys told me about it on break beforehand. Otherwise they would just have fixed it on the fly and never said a word. Nobody wants to hold things up when time is critical, and usually they want to help you.

If nothing else, it gave me the chance to apologize and tell the guys I owed them a beer. ...And to tell them to quit whining and get triggers!  

Wouldn't it be nice if we always had time to sit down with the section leaders beforehand? On the other hand, sometimes the music doesn't merit that much attention! Life's too short. :wink:


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/17**

Oh, I agree, getting those parts afterward is gold! Though you will receive fewer complements higher than when a musician takes the part with him/her!



JJP @ Tue Apr 19 said:


> On the other hand, sometimes the music doesn't merit that much attention! Life's too short. :wink:



Or, conversely, life's too short not to treat everything you do as though it were your last act. 


_Mike


----------



## Ashermusic

Exactly Mike. We do the best we can because that is how we are wired.

It is a matter of self-respect and respect for the craft.


----------



## JJP

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/17**



mverta @ Tue Apr 19 said:


> I just have a reactionary, instant bristle at any suggestion of doing less than the best we're capable of, but that's a nearly pathological issue of mine.
> <snip>
> When nobody else is around, and you're alone with your conscience, if you know, without needing to make any excuses, that you've truly done your best, and exceeded your own expectations, it can bring you a very deep sense of pride and confidence; cornerstones of true happiness.


I hear ya'. I'm not saying we shouldn't always do our very best. Instead I've found that sometimes part of doing my best is putting my ego aside and asking, "What is REALLY needed here?" Sometimes what's needed is perspective on whether the investment of extra time, effort, and extreme attention to detail is appropriate.

Usually all those things are needed and very important. Occasionally they get in the way of successful music making. Sometimes it's hard to know which situation you're in! :|


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/17**

Well _now_ I'm just nitpicking to be difficult, but doesn't the definition of doing one's best have to include doing what's best for the project? I mean, if you're thinking of yourself and your ego over your responsibilities to your clients, isn't that already an abdication of duty? 

Anyway, this poor horse... I think everyone gets it by now! 


_Mike


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/17**

Well... having blathered on nearly ad infinitum about a whole host of stuff in the last couple of years, I feel my time at VI-C is rapidly coming to an end.  But before I go, I have one or two more things I want to say. Here's one:

Finding Your Own Voice

Enjoy.

_Mike


----------



## robibla

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 5/11**

I really enjoyed this Mike. It's something that I have been battling with myself as a rather fresh composer. I really like your analogy that music is a language, you don't have to reinvent language to say something - it's what you say that matters. Time to go deeper!

P.S. don't go :lol:


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 5/11**

Interesting topic. I've stopped thinking about this for a while now. The way I like to see it is, I don't copy other composers but rather use the same tools they did and whatever comes out of that will be it. These tools are available to everybody. A whole tone scale is not invented by Debussy, he just used it in a more clever and aesthetic way then anybody else, but the tool is free to anyone and it is to you to use it how you want. This comes down to looking and studying for the origins of JW writing, as you said, and that's the secret to good writing rather than copying directly the composer, which is basically a dead end.


----------



## impressions

mike, if you know all of williams's influences-where did he get the inspiration of time tunnel? 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cEUY9z1HEc

and i'm not another williams fan, i'm really asking. it sounds like his jazz influences collided perfectly with his orchestral.

p.s. i enjoy your podcasts thanks for sharing them.


----------



## impressions

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 5/11**



Guy Bacos @ Wed May 11 said:


> Interesting topic. I've stopped thinking about this for a while now. The way I like to see it is, I don't copy other composers but rather use the same tools they did and whatever comes out of that will be it. These tools are available to everybody. A whole tone scale is not invented by Debussy, he just used it in a more clever and aesthetic way then anybody else, but the tool is free to anyone and it is to you to use it how you want. This comes down to looking and studying for the origins of JW writing, as you said, and that's the secret to good writing rather than copying directly the composer, which is basically a dead end.



i think he found the "power" in melody(not just orchestration and grooves), just like the masters of the romantic era did, takes lots of researching, time and the good projects that gives you the authority to make that sound.
he was a master of his craft for sure, maybe there are better in the 17-18th century but he could be their equal.


----------



## David Story

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 5/11**



> But before I go, I have one or two more things I want to say. Here's one:
> 
> Finding Your Own Voice



Well said Mike! You're eloquent in these podcasts.
Imitation is a form of practice, a way to learn technique.

When scoring, ask:
"HOW DO I FEEL ABOUT THIS SCENE?"

Then your technique will be effective. And fit the scene.

Just hope the director feels the same way.






Please visit from time to time!


----------



## whinecellar

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 5/11**



Andrew Christie @ Wed May 11 said:


> I really admire your perspective on music, so yes please don't leave us!



Agreed. Mike, if it's a matter of your work keeping you so busy that you can't spare the time, then Godspeed... but there are few times (if any) that your contributions here haven't been highly valuable. Do stick around, or at least pop in from time to time!

Re: "finding your own voice" - words of wisdom indeed.

All the best, and thanks much!


----------



## synergy543

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 5/11**

+1 

Mike, your music, podcasts and comments have all been most inspiring. In these cold dark lonely studios we inhabit, its nice to hear a voice of inspiration and reason once in a while (its like going to composer's church). So do consider staying or visiting once in a while.

btw, did you already have your orchestral recording session? We were looking forward to hearing about that.

Greg


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 5/11**

Thanks, guys -

My reasoning goes like this: If all the world's a stage, then a forum thread is a place with a spotlight permanently affixed on it. And the performer in me feels that sometimes you gotta know when to exit - preferably before the audience has grown completely tired of you.

I really only have a few core beliefs about music, the business, craft, etc., and while I've used my opportunity here as a sort of "bully pulpit" to espouse those beliefs, I also recognize that I do so with little humility or diplomacy. Forceful, passionate opinions can be inspiring, but also fatiguing. I'm in danger of repeating myself, and I want to give you guys a break. Perhaps it'll be more like an intermission.

Since originally starting this thread, I've gotten a lot of really encouraging and cool emails, and it seems people discover the thread for the first time just about every week. My hope is to wrap it up with a statement, let it be a show unto itself, as complete as I can make it, and let it survive under its own inertia for as long as it's deemed relevant. Come to think of it, this is exactly what we do with music, isn't it? Perhaps putting the pen down is the most musical thing I can do.


In other news, the recording session was moved to the 18th of July. Well, to be more accurate, I moved it when I lost many of my preferred principal players to some more lucrative sessions. But we're locked this time, and I'm looking into having a little app written which will allow a mouse-over to switch between the virtual and live versions of the piece once I'm done. I'll also be posting video of the session and prep/post process. If I've had an overlying theme run throughout my posts, it's that for my type of music, I find the virtual palette a wonderful, inspiring, and galactically useful tool, which nonetheless cannot even begin to capture what is possible with real instruments in the hands of virtuosos. The undeniable truth of that is what inspires me to write and work hard, and I hope, ultimately, the comparison will inspire others as well.


For the future, who knows? I've gotten some interesting offers to consider, things like doing masterclasses or seminars - chances to evangelize face-to-face, to be sure, but also chances to be challenged one-on-one, which I just love. What I know is that the thing which drew me to VI-C in the first place - the bonds of community - will always be important to me personally, professionally, and good for the craft, I feel. So I'll likely not be vaporizing in total.  There are a couple of projects on the horizon, as well, which may or may not usher in "big changes." I like to think positive, so just in case, best I say a few parting words in case I don't get the chance again for awhile. It's just polite. 


_Mike


----------



## marcotronic

Mike,
just watched your video on the first page and listened to your "podcasts" - awesome! Especially the video! 

Just got it that you are actually "THE" Mike Verta I already knew from the Nextlimit Maxwell Render<->Maya videos. Incredible that you are also that extremely good at music. I already liked the Maxwell videos a lot and think you are really one of the best teachers out there. Really enjoy your style - also musically.

Please don´t go!  Oh man, I would pay a whole lotta money for a series of such excellent videos covering different aspects of instruments, composition, arrangement, orchestration and whatnot...

Thanks!
Marco


----------



## Casey Edwards

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 5/11**

I feel that since the recording has taken place this thread needed a breathe of life. I'm really excited to hear the comparison.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 5/11**

I haven't posted about the recording yet because the results were only mediocre, and I haven't figured out how to talk about it in a way that's appropriate... 

...I suppose that's obtuse.


What I mean is that there is a part of me which places a large value on sharing my experiences, in hopes that others may learn from them. And in truth, I learned more in last Monday's session than in a year of study. That's always the case when you put music on the stands, but in this case, successes or failures on the day had almost nothing to do with the music, and everything to do with trends and changes in the business, which makes it a bit sticky to discuss. 

Suffice it to say that I spent the week after the session getting candid opinions, having frank discussions, and coaxing otherwise tight-lipped players -some, old friends; others, new friends  - to dish on my theories about what led to shortcomings in the performance. What I got out of these raw discussions was at once a great relief, and equally, depressing. The short version is that the last time I was regularly working with a group this size on this sort of material was seven years ago. A lot has changed.


_Mike


----------



## autopilot

Really interested to hear more when you're ready Mike - both musically and more specifically why you're (somewhat) disappointed with the results.

Respect your honesty in this too - you've put yourself out there by doing this whole session in the first place, and the showman / salesman we all have must be wanting to give the "everything's hunky - dory" speech  

Let yourself land on what and how you want to articulate and I for one will be looking forward to what you've got to say!


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 5/11**

Well, about the music, I'll say that I changed a handful of articulations on the day, but other than that, I'd put it right back on the stands tomorrow. So that, at least, was good. 

_Mike


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 5/11**

One thing I _can_ do, however, is post the WIP of the edit assembly.

I came home from the session with all the raw tracks and stems, to begin working on an assembly for the mix. We did 30 takes in all; a few end-to-end takes, and the rest in sections. To make things a little faster and lighter on my system, I've done an assembly of the piece using the tree mics only. So this is _not_ a mix, obviously. It's just the tree mics, raw. That said, this assembly had no fewer than 40 edits in it (!?!!). And having been over every bar of every track, from trees to wides to directs, this represents the absolute best I've been able to muster:

The Race - Assembly Test, Tree Mics Only

_Mike


----------



## synergy543

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 5/11**



mverta @ Thu Jul 28 said:


> ... but in this case, successes or failures on the day had almost nothing to do with the music, and everything to do with trends and changes in the business, which makes it a bit sticky to discuss.


Mike, you have my deepest respect for actually carrying through a project that many of us can only dream about.


----------



## synergy543

First impression - Well, its not nearly as bad you made it out to be! However, the players do seem to lack a level expression and passion. Honestly, you added much more expression and passion into your mockup. The players sound like they were just doing their job playing the notes but nothing like the passion that they could have put into the music.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 5/11**

There were obstacles preventing the sort of "owning it" performance you're talking about, and I agree that's part of what's missing. This edit is basically everything that _wasn't_ blatantly wrong, which is a long way from the goal line.

And anything which lends weight to the adage that a great mock-up is better than a poor live performance, while true, is still a pretty dark thing.

Fortunately, this session was just for me; nothing was riding on it, per se. Though I didn't spend any less than full energy on it, I am grateful I don't have anybody to answer to, this round. Better now than when it's on somebody else's dime!


_Mike


----------



## synergy543

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 5/11**

Mike, could it be that the players are inspired to add more passion when they are playing for a big feature film as they have an audience and are in the spotlight?


----------



## autopilot

Mike - I on purpose haven't listened to the mock ups - I was kind of waiting until you had the whole thing of what you wanted to do together to follow your process from beginning to end in one sitting (and I hope you still put that together) 

So with that caveat - this sounds frickin' great to me ! Evocative, visual, engaging. 

Can I say - is it possible that in your head you have a way you wanted it to sound, and this is just somewhat different to that. Please don't lose sight that this recording is awesome even if it is different! 

I hope you don't take that the wrong way - I'm not trying to shoot you down or blow smoke up your arse either or be in anyway patronising - to be clear - I'm talking about that kind of subjectivity that you cannot help but have at this stage of a finished project. 

You have lived and breathed this piece so much in the leadup to the recording that in your minds ear anything that is different to that perception of the piece is "wrong" even though it's great! 

Objectively to me this sounds great - Truly! You are allowed to be hard on yourself but ... 

Be proud! You've done something ballsy, amazing and beautiful!


----------



## David Story

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 5/11**

It's the best sounding music by a forum member, imho. Great composing, performing, and recording.
It's not perfect, it's human.
Reminds me why live is magic. Thank you Mike Verta.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 5/11**

Autopilot, thank you! Now go listen to the mockup and see if you can hear the difference in intent!

Synergy- it was really only a couple of key players in 2 of the sections that were having problems.... they just happened to be crucial players on the day. But in terms of enthusiasm and excitement, the additude in the room was unanimously positive. There were a few of our fellow forum members there who may decide to weigh in and attest to as much. That's part of what makes this bizarre.... this was not a case of poor players, lack of enthusiasm or professionalism... what did go down is just a little bit too sticky to talk about specifically!

David- you're too kind, and your energy was great to have on the day...!


----------



## Casey Edwards

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 5/11**



mverta @ Thu Jul 28 said:


> what did go down is just a little bit too sticky to talk about specifically!



Dude...this is worse than those TV cliffhangers!!! I NEED MORE!!! haha o[])


----------



## sherief83

I'll comment as a listener and not a composer, really no where near anything you can do Mike but as a listener...

I think you should share with us why this performance is not to your liking?

I've listened to both the mockup and the live performance and I prefer the humanizing and calmness of the real recording actually. 

The mockup feels a bit too accented in my personal opinion But it has that brass in your face which is a bit missing in the real recording but in all honesty, I felt the brass was too loud in the mockup and I prefer the brass of the real recording.

Maybe the only thing with brass is the french horns at 2:50(real recording) descending, maybe they should've been up in volume overall but not in dynamic? since that was my very favorite part in the mockup for brass But that's very very minor thing.

But don't get me wrong, Great job!! Really, no one can do this kind of music and have it sound so good but you sir achieved something many want to do. I'm sure you know that  

Oh and you need to show this to Steven Spielberg.

Edit I just added it to my Itunes, its so well done, the real recording! Itunes put your name right after John Williams and Before Mozart....


----------



## EastWest Lurker

Nothing wrong with this that some mixing won't fix! it is infinitely superior to your mockup even though it is a fine mockup.

The only advantage of the mockup that I hear is the drama of crescendo which go form a whisper to a roar at times. If that was the intent, at the session possibly the players should have been instructed to exaggerate the dynamics, especially the swells.

I did notice at the date that they seemed bigger to me when sitting in the room with the players that when sitting in the control booth. 

Anyway, splendid work and try to have fun with the mix.


----------



## Lunatique

I have to say, I like the live version much better. 

While the mockup is more dramatic, it doesn't necessarily sound better for it--it tends to be a bit over-the-top at times--sort of like how a lot of comic book artists draw people with the muscles too distinct, as if the person's flexing all the time. The attacks of some phrases also tend to be too abrupt and sounds synthetic in some parts.

Overall, the live version is just so much organic and natural, be it the attacks, legatos, textures, or dynamics...etc. The sense of space is also more cohesive and well, real. (No duh!)

Thank you for sharing this experience with us. It's always a pleasure to get to hear the mockup vs. the live version. I have to say I'm a little surprised by how much better the live version sounds though, since I definitely think of you as one of the best when it comes to orchestral mockups. I believe this is because the composition itself is far more ambitious than just about any of the previous examples I've heard from other composers who's shared their live vs. mockup versions with us. I would say that the only mockups I've heard that comes very close to the live versions were the ones from the big name Hollywood composers. I can't recall which ones at the moment, but there were a couple mockups that were passed around in the past and sounded amazing.


----------



## germancomponist

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 5/11**

Mike, thank you very much for sharing!

For me, this is the most interesting thread in VI-Control... !

As others, I also like the real recording. But I think I understand you very much. Especially this pease is 101% in your head, any simple note, and I can feel with you when you get not this same result via recording a real orchestra. 

The conductor had it exactly in his own head as you? I think here is the point? 
We all know that the real players are the slaves from the conductor, as our PC`s are to play our libs..... . 

Again, many thanks!


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 5/11**

Thanks, everyone, for the great comments and feedback. I feel I should clarify a couple things:

My expectations for this session were colored by having had many experiences with virtually the same group - almost to a chair; I know what they're capable of. And certainly it's true, that many things in the live version are unquestionably superior - things like the string passages, which are always fun to hear finally sound right 

While I can't argue that the mock-up comes across as over-the-top in more than a few instances, there was definitely a level of intensity and overall dramatic contrast which did not materialize, and you're just going to have to trust me when I say it was, on this particular day, unavoidable. My conductor, Neal Desby, who has been a friend for more than 20 years, and knows my music arguably better than I do, was amazing, and did a heroic job of getting as much out of the session as we did. 

It was also my first time at Fox, and prior to the start, Shawn warned me that the discrepancy between how it sounds in the room vs. in the booth is the greatest in town. I noticed this right away, and quickly headed to the booth. But I also have a slight suspicion that it may be harder for musicians to hear in that room, as there were often timing and intonation issues which didn't seem to auto-correct, as is custom. And even spot rehearsals and prompting weren't helping much. If I didn't know better, I'd say some of the sections had issues with their headphones... almost as if their signal was delayed.

Of course, there were lots of standout players and moments. One particularly nice discovery was in the percussion section. Don Williams (John's brother) has always been in my percussion section, but on Monday's date, he played Timpani. He was absolutely astounding. There are a lot of things, sensibility-wise which determine a great studio Timpanist, and he's got them. Shawn echoed my feelings, as he's worked with him many times, always with stellar results. Also an absolute dream was the concertmaster, Roger Wilkie, whose demeanor is exceeded only by his ability. Just perfect. Also, if you've never heard Trombone 1, Alex Iles play, look him up. The dude is a fuckin' monster.

So, many great things to say about the session, for sure. Lots of nice moments caught on video, which I'll be posting. On balance, though the session was not a "failure," I just happen to know there was a whole other level we could've gotten to. And that is as valid a lesson - and as valuable a lesson - to take from a date as any. 

_Mike


----------



## dcoscina

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 5/11**



David Story @ Thu Jul 28 said:


> It's the best sounding music by a forum member, imho. Great composing, performing, and recording.
> It's not perfect, it's human.
> Reminds me why live is magic. Thank you Mike Verta.



+1. I think the performance is fine. horns are a little subdued but the composition is solid. Mike, please don't say you composed this in Pro Tools 9 or 8. Tell me you wrote this out or at least composed it in Sibelius or Finale. Right? If not, I hate you. :mrgreen:

Edit- I love Desplat but seriously I think I would prefer that you scored the last two Harry Potter instalments. You have Williams' style just nailed. And there's so much wonderful melodic ideas going on with a Williams-styled sense of harmony, at least his Americana pandiatonic stuff. Really great stuff.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 5/11**



dcoscina @ Thu Jul 28 said:


> I love Desplat but seriously I think I would prefer that you scored the last two Harry Potter instalments.



Hey, you know what? Me too 

Seriously, though, thanks for such kind words...

Oh, and here's just a little bit of Don playing timp. There's nothing particularly jaw-dropping about it, I just dig watching people play well; when I was in the percussion section in orchestra, I was mostly timpani and mallets... so I'm biased. 

_Mike

P.S. Even though this isn't mixed - just raw tree mics - I really do dig the air around tree mics. Don't you?


----------



## synergy543

Um,....I just hear mono. Is that right?


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 5/11**

The tree mic .mp3 is stereo; if you're talking about this little clip of Don, then yes that's just a mono feed to the camera.

_Mike


----------



## synergy543

OK gotcha. Yeah, the tree mics are pretty sweet!


----------



## David Story

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 5/11**



mverta @ Thu Jul 28 said:


> dcoscina @ Thu Jul 28 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I love Desplat but seriously I think I would prefer that you scored the last two Harry Potter instalments.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> 
> Oh, and here's just a little bit of Don playing timp.
Click to expand...


The performance was there in the room, you can feel it through the video. I love the way he's doing 4 things at once, yet looks so comfortable. I think this will be a great music video. Maybe start a trend 

Could "sound better" as a film, when the audience sees them play.

BTW, that was what some players were guessing, that it was for HP.

For perspective, I was at several other session at Fox recently. The Race was the most melodic, and felt like a concert. It's a crowd pleaser, you might like to get it on pops program.


----------



## hbuus

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 7/28**

I've listened to this a number of times now.
I like the live recording  
It's true the players lack urgency, for lack of a better word.
They play like it's their job to play; they seem to lack passion to some extent.
But the live recording is still very good.
I'd take it over the mock-up any day.
It sounds organic and more integrated somehow.
Good job, Verta.

Henrik


----------



## dcoscina

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 5/11**



mverta @ Thu Jul 28 said:


> dcoscina @ Thu Jul 28 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I love Desplat but seriously I think I would prefer that you scored the last two Harry Potter instalments.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, you know what? Me too
> 
> Seriously, though, thanks for such kind words...
Click to expand...


What's your work process on something like this Mike? Do you write out things on paper? Do some improvisations at the keyboard then develop them in PT or Sibelius? I'm curious because there are some very dense, active parts with a lot of interesting harmonic extensions. If you can play this stuff into a DAW in realtime, you're friggin' Mozart dude.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 7/28**

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "realtime" but I suspect the answer might be yes, and if so, it doesn't make me Mozart  

If by "realtime" you mean that the first keys my fingers hit are the right ones, then no friggin' way. But if you mean that when writing a bar of music, the orchestration and counterpoint happens simultaneously and generally doesn't need revising, then yes. But I've never seen those as separate processes; they've always felt to me to be inexorably linked to a given moment in time, musically, albeit in parallel dimensions which just happen to gracefully coexist with each other. It's hard to describe. I've thought about making a video of me improv/composing something in realtime, but I feel silly about it because I have a feeling it's kind of just what everybody does, and wouldn't be much help!

In any case, The Race is one of the few pieces I've done that didn't start out on paper in some form - it was conceived entirely in DAW and then I made the score from the sequence after the fact. But honestly it makes no difference whether I write to paper or to DAW in the final analysis - the process is the same. I just like starting with paper because it has an "art" element to it that makes me that much more secure about the orchestrational and dynamic "shape" (literally!) of a piece/cue/whatever.

If that doesn't answer your question, try again, because I'd like to get you an answer.


_Mike


----------



## dcoscina

Wow that's pretty awesome. To even approach the level of complexity your piece has, I have to sit down and write it out on paper or else a notation program.


----------



## synthetic

Mike, the live recording sounds fantastic. A bit cold towards the beginning, but really warms up towards the end. Blows away the mockup for me. 

Was this conducted to a click? I know you sat earlier that players are more comfortable playing that way, but I know that Williams and Horner prefer to conduct to a clock. Maybe making the players sweat is part of the magic to performances like "Escape/Chase/Goodbye," and why I prefer the soundtrack version to concert versions. 

Or maybe, it's just getting more practice in front of an orchestra. Hopefully not on your own dime next time!

Anyhoo, just overdub some Moog bass and Hiroshima Taiko and you'll have something really great.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 7/28**

I don't like using a click. But almost unanimously, players find the level of conducting in town so poor that it's more distracting than helpful, so they greatly prefer a click. The Race also has a number of tempo changes in it. So to satisfy all parties, I "conducted" the click manually before the session by hand. The tempo varies greatly but in a human way throughout the piece. Players approach a session with a Williams or Horner differently, partially because they know that they know what they're doing, partially because they have a history with them, and partially because a player would never in 1,000,000 years tell John Williams to use a click


----------



## germancomponist

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 7/28**



mverta @ Tue Aug 02 said:


> ... and partially because a player would never in 1,000,000 years tell John Williams to use a click


----------



## synthetic

Good idea/compromise. Interesting that "players find the level of conducting in town so poor." Especially since so many are conducted by the head of RMA (Pete Anthony.)

Re-listening to your podcasts. You're the Zig Zigler of composers.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 7/28**

I wrote this today to sortof answer a rhetorical question: Why can't superhero themes be _fun_ anymore? Batman, Wonder Woman and Spiderman had some great themes from the 50's, 60's, 70's. Well, here's my take on an "opening credits" for Wonder Woman. Just a nod here and there, but also a bit of fun. Oh, and I finally got a chance to use CineBrass. 

Wonder Woman

_Mike


----------



## Dracarys

Star Wars is my favourite, I'm very impressed with all your work. I have also watched some of your videos and love writing the mod wheel automation.
I would love some feed back possibly on the song I just posted, having some difficulties with mixing.

Cheers!


----------



## Casey Edwards

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 7/28**



mverta @ Thu Aug 04 said:


> I wrote this today to sortof answer a rhetorical question: Why can't superhero themes be _fun_ anymore? Batman, Wonder Woman and Spiderman had some great themes from the 50's, 60's, 70's. Well, here's my take on an "opening credits" for Wonder Woman. Just a nod here and there, but also a bit of fun. Oh, and I finally got a chance to use CineBrass.
> 
> Wonder Woman
> 
> _Mike



Damn dude... Do you give lessons? =o 

But seriously, incredible use of non-chord tones and extended harmony. Your control over harmony and voicings is what impresses me the most. Your textural control is also very drool-worthy. Great writing man. I really hope to be able to pick that brain one day.


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## Marius Masalar

Gorgeous cue, Mike. Pity about the low bitrate MP3 cause that would rock the house in lossless, especially with all the detail.

What do you think of CineBrass?


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/4 - WONDER WOMAN**

Thanks, guys! Marius, if you've got the bandwidth, here's a 30MB .wav version: 

http://www.mikeverta.com/Posts/Wonder_Woman.wav (Wonder_Woman.wav)

Oh, and as for CineBrass: Great for staccatos. 

_Mike


----------



## synergy543

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/4 - WONDER WOMAN**

Fun indeed! Very impressive writing and orchestration and performance. I presume this one was done direct to DAW?

Thanks for sharing.
(and to Wonder woman for inspiring it...assuming she did, you didn't say.)


----------



## Marius Masalar

Thanks, Mike! Now blasting in all its glorious fidelity.

That is a sad fact regarding the conducting/click discussion, by the way. I'm sorry I couldn't have been in town at the time to be a fly on the wall. I'm sure it would have been great fun.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/4 - WONDER WOMAN**

Yes, this was direct to DAW... did this one VERY quickly. In fact, after listening fresh this morning, I'm going to make a small change at the end; I repeated an idea (there's a breakdown followed by a build-up followed by essentially the same breakdown), and that's rarely effective. The great Dizzy Gillespie was the one who once told me if you do something cool, only do it once. 

_Mike


----------



## EastWest Lurker

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/4 - WONDER WOMAN**



mverta @ Fri Aug 05 said:


> Yes, this was direct to DAW... did this one VERY quickly. In fact, after listening fresh this morning, I'm going to make a small change at the end; I repeated an idea (there's a breakdown followed by a build-up followed by essentially the same breakdown), and that's rarely effective. The great Dizzy Gillespie was the one who once told me if you do something cool, only do it once.
> 
> _Mike



That's funny because the great arranger/big band leader Herb Pomeroy told me, "If it's worth doing once in an arrangement, it's worth doing twice."


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/4 - WONDER WOMAN**

That's because he was white, and had a mustache. Black people are way hipper than white people. I credit the Moorish invasion of my homeland for any groove I've got 


_Mike


----------



## EastWest Lurker

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/4 - WONDER WOMAN**



mverta @ Fri Aug 05 said:


> That's because he was white, and had a mustache. Black people are way hipper than white people. I credit the Moorish invasion of my homeland for any groove I've got
> 
> 
> _Mike



ROTFL!


----------



## germancomponist

Holy cow! That`s Mike. 

Bravo! And thanks for sharing!


----------



## ozmorphasis

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 5/11**



mverta @ Thu Jul 28 said:


> My conductor, Neal Desby, who has been a friend for more than 20 years, and knows my music arguably better than I do, was amazing, and did a heroic job of getting as much out of the session as we did.
> _Mike



This put a huge smile on my face Mike! I just had an exchange with Neal, and will be meeting up with him next week after some years (I studied counterpoint with him at USC back in the day). 

I love to see great musicians working with great musicians. 

Best,
O


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/4 - WONDER WOMAN**

Wonder Woman v2

If I'd slept on it before posting, here's what I'd have put up. Trimmed down the last, repeated, breakdown. Nothing big, but the double-dip bothered me.

_Mike


----------



## germancomponist

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/4 - WONDER WOMAN**



mverta @ Fri Aug 05 said:


> Wonder Woman v2
> 
> If I'd slept on it before posting, here's what I'd have put up. Trimmed down the last, repeated, breakdown. Nothing big, but the double-dip bothered me.
> 
> _Mike



Great!


----------



## hbuus

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/4 - WONDER WOMAN**

I would love to hear a version with all orchestral instead of with drums and synth stuff.
It's a great tune but I'm put off because of the latter.
I realize I'm rather alone with this preference though 

Henrik


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/4 - WONDER WOMAN**

Hmm, you know, I'm not sure it would make much sense without that stuff - it was conceived that way! I mean, it's more motif-based than theme-based, and the motif is heavily groove-oriented. Plus, part of what I wanted to do was not completely abandon the sort of 70's-tastic nature of the T.V. theme. And if you have a listen to a bunch of recent superhero movies back-to-back, like Thor, Green Lantern, Batman, Hulk, etc., you get the idea that the only hero music that can be written is essentially the same song over and over, with either A) Spiccato string ostinatos, B) Zimmer Drums, C) Choir, or D) All of the above. Three ingredients, just mixed together a little differently. Like Mexican food. It's literally the same figure many times. I don't understand how plagiarism lawsuits don't abound. So I wanted to use similar timbres, but write something that definitely didn't sound like Iron Man 8 or whatever. 

Anyway, if I were going to do a non-groove Wonder Woman, I'd still rely heavily on tribal percussion to accent her Amazonian heritage. 


_Mike


----------



## Garlu

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/4 - WONDER WOMAN**

Very cool Mike! :D 

Thanks for posting!!! _-) /\~O =o 

Garlu

PS. Why do you end up on a major chord?


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/4 - WONDER WOMAN**



Garlu @ Fri Aug 05 said:


> PS. Why do you end up on a major chord?




'Cause she's a goddamnfucking SUPERHERO, that's why, and superheros are _supposed to be_ positive, aspirational role-models, not washed-out, desaturated, dark, "complex," flawed people with all sorts of character defects just so a pessimistic public can "relate" to them. That's what Jersey Shore is for. It's an f'd up trend to take all the inspiration out of our heroes and make them reality-tv candidates. 


End of rant. 

Great question, and my personal favorite thing about the sketch. 


_Mike

P.S. Have you seen the new Superman costume? It looks like when Chris Reeve's Superman became an asshole in that one movie. I'm so sick of the dark shit.


----------



## impressions

sounds really awesome orchestrating, adventure hero stuff, but i didn't hear a "woman" in there. is that the original wonderwoman theme revised?


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/4 - WONDER WOMAN**

Her little fanfare from the TV theme is referenced early on and at the end, but beyond that, I didn't do an actual "updating" of the theme. I considered it; it's doable, but it would a different thing. As for it not having a "woman" in there... it's an interesting thing, which I wondered: how to say "woman" without in any way saying "weak" or "less than," or "delicate." By the same token, you don't want to do the same, generic take that's done 24/7 because that is always conspicuously "male," with its exaggerated "look how impressive and dark and loud I am." I think the Giant Drums thing has become a self-parody, and is starting to look compensatory, like a guy just revving his weekend Harley a lot at stoplights. So I did the only "melodic" treatment with a female choir, and I also used a lot of agile string figures, which had a sort of playful quality to them. That's about as "female" as I went. I don't think, if you really listen to it, that this treatment is especially "macho." 

_Mike

P.S. Apparently I get paid by the quotation mark.


----------



## impressions

i guess it's a matter of personal history of taste of what people(or me) consider being "delicate", "female power" thing, to me it sounded way too bombastic for a female theme, it has big treatment to her justice crusades and her heroic character. i understand the corniness of old school film scoring regarding doing the most expected, so the message will HAVE to be delivered. but you should put a picture of wonderwoman with your music and feel it for yourself, again my very humble opinion with respect to your skills which are intimidating to say the least.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/4 - WONDER WOMAN**

Well there's no arguing with personal taste, that's for sure.  Interestingly, my wife loved the "female" strength of it, and she's actually been_ called_ "Wonder Woman" in articles, before :lol: 

Anyway, absolutely no offense taken; I appreciate your perspective! Perhaps a better balance is out there still...


_Mike


----------



## impressions

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/4 - WONDER WOMAN**

i love my supporting wife also o-[][]-o


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/4 - WONDER WOMAN**

I don't know what's up with all the superhero stuff, but tonight I wrote this little "scene" where Lois and Superman realize that much as they love each other, they can't be together... or...? It's short, but sweet. Hopefully.

Lois and Clark


_Mike

P.S. I swear this is my all-time favorite idiom, writing-wise. All those Copland-esque Major 9ths. Like half of my Jazz writing lives in that space. I just dig it.


----------



## dadek

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/4 - WONDER WOMAN**



mverta @ Sat Aug 06 said:


> P.S. I swear this is my all-time favorite idiom, writing-wise. All those Copland-esque Major 9ths. Like half of my Jazz writing lives in that space. I just dig it.



Embrace it man. This is by far my favorite piece I've heard from you! -quite inspiring.


----------



## David Story

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

This is the heart of a story, where a difficult decision is made. You sing that home as well as Williams. Just a bit different. And that's what great superhero movie is about. The spectacle don't matter if the hero doesn't earn it.

And enough of the dark, let's have more light than shadow.

A skill you never hear people talk about is making dramatic shifts in tone fun and emotionally resonant. LOIS and CLARK is sad romantic music that maintains optimism in the end. Hopeful indeed. Great to hear those motifs used eloquently.

And nice textures, esp the opening pad. And those open voice pandiatonic harmonies are Copland's gift to composers. Then you shift to minor jazz chords for a descending, yearning melody, nice.

The last statement primes for the next sequence. Now Superman will kickass with our rooting for him more than ever.

Please post some score.






The next step is to take it to tragedy, like the end of e.t., before the reversal.


----------



## hbuus

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/4 - WONDER WOMAN**



mverta @ Sat Aug 06 said:


> I don't know what's up with all the superhero stuff, but tonight I wrote this little "scene" where Lois and Superman realize that much as they love each other, they can't be together... or...? It's short, but sweet. Hopefully.
> 
> Lois and Clark
> 
> 
> _Mike



This is pure magic. I like it very much, especially around 0:36-0:45 where there is a little twist on the main theme before a climax sets in.

Very emotional. It's easy to picture a scene with Lois and Superman realizing there is love between them but also the uncertainty if they will be able to be together or not.

I wonder:

Some time ago someone mentioned to you that you really ought to do yourself a favor and incorporate newer libraries such as LASS into your pallette. Now I see you talking about how you use Cinebrass also. Personally I believe I can hear the difference between your new stuff and your older tunes which were - I think - mostly done with VSL. My questions are:

Have you indeed added newer libraries to your orchestral pallette?
And if so:
How do you like working with them?
and:
What do you yourself think about your newer music which incorporates these libraries and your older stuff?

I'm curious, hope it's ok to ask 

Best,
Henrik


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

Thanks, guys... so glad you enjoy it!

Henrik - Yes, I add libraries from time to time, and sometimes they help a bit with the sound (LASS is permanently layered with my VSL strings, now), but beyond helping the fidelity of the mock-ups a bit, I don't "get" much from them. I mean, I don't get excited about new stuff, really. I did all that in the 80's  Love affairs with new keyboards and rack modules 

Today, I see stuff purely as tools, and I just can't get that excited about a hammer. Certainly they haven't had any noticeable effect in my writing workflow; it's just that some mock-ups sound better, now. But in my mind, that isn't saying a whole lot. "Lois and Clark" would be 2x better with real con sordino strings!

So I'd say if you notice the music getting "better," then it's coincidental. Or maybe it's just what happens when you practice all the time, who knows  Either way, I _am_ glad to have the tools. And of course, always glad to have the wonderful, encouraging feedback (and criticism) from you guys!


_Mike


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## dadek

-my comment was not aimed at the mock-up at all, it's the 'notes/music' that I liked.


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## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

Thank you; yes, I knew what you meant  Henrik was just asking specifically about the technologies...


----------



## sherief83

Lovely As always Mike. Really enjoyed the two superhero Tracks you posted and You've Personally Inspired me to work on a superhero Track now...lol

Sherief


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## reddognoyz

That is one goddamned energetic inspired fresh kick ass piece of music. I am going to try and rip it off as much as possible! ( and sadly fail, but I'll assimilate some hopefully)

It makes me feel like The Incredibles score did. Doesn't sound like it, just kind of the same c
cultural frame of reference. Really lovin it.


----------



## dedersen

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 5/11**



mverta @ Thu Jul 28 said:


> One thing I _can_ do, however, is post the WIP of the edit assembly.
> 
> I came home from the session with all the raw tracks and stems, to begin working on an assembly for the mix. We did 30 takes in all; a few end-to-end takes, and the rest in sections. To make things a little faster and lighter on my system, I've done an assembly of the piece using the tree mics only. So this is _not_ a mix, obviously. It's just the tree mics, raw. That said, this assembly had no fewer than 40 edits in it (!?!!). And having been over every bar of every track, from trees to wides to directs, this represents the absolute best I've been able to muster:
> 
> The Race - Assembly Test, Tree Mics Only
> 
> _Mike



Only just had a chance to listen to this, and I am just absolutely awestruck by your composition skills. This is a tour-de-force of great composition, orchestration chops and just plain inspiring music. Tremendous work!


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

Again, guys... thank you so much for the kind words. I hope you know that I don't take a single one of them for granted. They mean a lot.

Now...

There wasn't a lot of thread action on the heels of "Lois and Clark" but I did get a flurry of emails, most of which asked about composing quickly straight to DAW, and keeping track of orchestration, etc. It's a variation on the "process" question I get a lot, and, despite doing my best to answer online, can be hard to quantify.

So tonight I decided to try something. 


I turned on the screencaster, pointed a camera at the keyboard, and recorded my improvising a little cue live on camera, in realtime, from conception to execution, talking about my thoughts and motivations for every step along the way - how I was choosing the instruments, the range, the harmonies, the motifs/figures, the orchestration, etc. No edits, no pauses; just the raw process, exposed. My hope is that by seeing the process as it happens, some of the more difficult questions will find answers.

I'm going to assemble and the screencast and camera recording and put up a video in the next day or two. Will keep you posted...

Thanks again,


_Mike


----------



## Hannesdm

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

That's very cool, Mike!

Thanks for doing that!


----------



## PMortise

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/4 - WONDER WOMAN**



mverta @ Fri Aug 05 said:


> Garlu @ Fri Aug 05 said:
> 
> 
> 
> PS. Why do you end up on a major chord?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'Cause she's a goddamnfucking SUPERHERO, that's why, and superheros are _supposed to be_ positive, aspirational role-models, not washed-out, desaturated, dark, "complex," flawed people with all sorts of character defects just so a pessimistic public can "relate" to them. That's what Jersey Shore is for. It's an f'd up trend to take all the inspiration out of our heroes and make them reality-tv candidates.
> 
> 
> End of rant.
> 
> Great question, and my personal favorite thing about the sketch.
> 
> 
> _Mike
> 
> P.S. Have you seen the new Superman costume? It looks like when Chris Reeve's Superman became an asshole in that one movie. I'm so sick of the dark shit.
Click to expand...


A-effin'-MEN!
I haven't gotten to the point of "studying" this piece yet - I'm too busy just enjoying it. =o


----------



## RyBen

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

I'm really enjoying your sketches and philosophies, Mike. I'm in the process of making a new theme for Superman, of course trying not to tread the territory of JW. I find heroic music to be a difficult genre to individualize in, seeing as JW kind of invented it haha.. at least in the film era. Perhaps Wagner was before him? I'll have to study those things.

I've also noticed that heros are really starting to turn to the dark side nowadays. Spiderman, Batman.. and I'm sure Superman's on the roster as well in Man of Steel. I like your attention to the femeninity of the Wonderwoman piece. I bet most bigtime composers wouldn't even consider that, they'd just pop out their handy "epic progression" sticky note.

Admitedly, I'm the type of person that would advocate, for once, a pessimistic ending for a movie where the good guy dies and the movie pretty much says "oh well.." but I'd much prefer it to happen to unlikable heros like Thor.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

Thanks for the kind words... Glad you're enjoying the work!

_Mike


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

Thanks for the kind words... Glad you're enjoying the work!

_Mike


----------



## Leon Willett

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

Oh that's so funny! I was at Joanne Kane music services a few weeks back, and I randomly spotted "The Race" conductor score + the big pile of parts on a table, and noticed your name on it! I had fun looking through it


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## Leon Willett

also, I got to peek at john williams´scores for tintin and also war horse 

In fact, I´m in the unique position of knowing what the main melodic theme for tintin is!! hehehe


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

Cool. Well we're all rooting for them. The man's got nothing left to prove, but everything he does proves his reputation.

_Mike


----------



## Scrianinoff

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**



mverta @ Mon 08 Aug said:


> I'm going to assemble and the screencast and camera recording and put up a video in the next day or two. Will keep you posted...
> 
> _Mike



That is brilliant, just as everything you're doing here. I really enjoy your music and your thinking about music and the music business. On top of that, your sincere candor is really refreshing and often incredibly funny, and not hurting too many people. Besides there's a saying, those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind. 

Sometimes, I like to dream that you (and other guys of your caliber) will write some big concert piece(s) some day that can be heard in the concert halls. I hope you are already working on this as a side project, or preparing for it. I have a couple of concert piece recordings of John Williams, for example his concerto for flute and orchestra. However, most of them are sounding too much like 'modern' classical music to me, not at all like his blockbuster soundtracks. I am still hoping new Mahlers, Wagners, Rachmaninovs, Scriabins, Prokofievs, Stravinskys etc. will stand up. It only takes men like you to further develop the themes you come up with, in a sense that you could probably not sell to a director/producer or that could not be integrated into a movie at all, but perhaps the concert goers would buy it in the long-term. Maybe this is not something for you at the moment, as I heard you giving explanations why you are working as fast as you are. But I keep hoping.

Anyway, thanks for sharing so much and all the best!


----------



## RyBen

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

I agree. I also dream that quality live orchestral pieces will strive again. I don't really call it "classical" as that has sort if an outdated stigma attached. Then "contemporary" makes me think of that ultra-dissonant type or either that minimalistic kind. I think "modern romantic" is more of the term I'd use in place of "modern classical," as we tend to focus more on the emotional impact than the rigidity of form. I don't think we want another Bach or Beethoven. We had them and they did an excellent job, now let's continue where JW and [insert other revolutionary composers (not just film composers)] left off. That's my perspective of it.

The interesting thing about (predominantly) orchestral music nowadays is that it's almost exclusively associated with film scores. You won't find many modern sonatas or concertos... outside of film, that is. The day of the "music composer" is gone. This is the day of the "film composer."

This of course presents a couple problems, for instance, the manufactorization of music and the subordinate nature of music (as it's meant to accompany film, not really stand on its own). Making money off of music is great. It's just the fact that money will often change the way we compose in order to suit the clients. That's not a problem either, except when clients are so narrow-minded, stunting the growth of our music as a result. It's not like they do it deliberately for that purpose, so we can't point fingers here. It's just a cause and effect situation.

I only mention these things because I've noticed allot of musicians say "well if I can't make money off of it, there's no point in doing it." They have every right to say that and it's completely understandable but it kind of destroys the art of things IMO. Composing a concerto won't bring in much money so the only person who would dare do it is someone who's already well-off financially, I believe.


----------



## Gusfmm

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

RyBen - simply and nicely said. Quite agree.

MikeV - Fantastic quality, refreshing to hear people with your skills out there writting beyond the usual 'Chugga-Chugga' (quote from somewhere else...). Keep it up.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

Were I to write concert music, I'd write "film concert music." The term I use is "CineSymphonic." It's pretty much what I do anyway, as I really strive to make every cue I write stand on its own as musically cohesive.

_Mike


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## EastWest Lurker

If I wanted to be a concert hall composer, I would find it discouraging. The general public has little or no interest in non-tonal music and I don't see much point in writing music for concert halls that people already wrote probably better 100 years ago. Debussy, Ravel, Scriabin,, Wagner, Bartok, Ives, and Stravinsky pretty much brought tonal concert hall music to its logical conclusion IMHO.


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## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

To suggest everything that can be said has already been said is almost never true, Jay, comon...


_Mike


----------



## EastWest Lurker

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**



mverta @ Mon Aug 15 said:


> To suggest everything that can be said has already been said is almost never true, Jay, comon...
> 
> 
> _Mike



Sorry, Mike I really don't believe there is anything new of musical significance to be said in tonal concert hall music. 

That is not to say that nothing tonal can be well written but it will be the musical equivalent to me of sloppy seconds.

I feel the same way about new representational fine art. Pointless, IMHO.


----------



## RyBen

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

Hey, who said it had to be classified as strictly "tonal" or "atonal?" I've listened to a couple unknown composers on youtube who use a combination of both and with a hit or miss, sometimes it'll sound amazing. I agree with Jay that the realm of _diatonic_ harmony is pretty much exhausted because there's not much you can (acceptably) do with a 7-note scale but you can still combine chromatic elements in some cases or even rethink your approach to harmony. Sometimes it's not about _what_ the chords are but _how_ they're presented, both in the layout of the chord and the orchestration of it.

I used to struggle trying to find some new amazing progression that hasn't been thought of. Recently I stopped focusing on that because it's almost impossible to do in a satisfying way that's not too sophisticated with a billion modulations and such. I've found good results in thinking more horizontally about the harmonic component. Look at Bach's music for example. He treats each of the voices individually yet they usually have some sort of congruency between them. The problem? His shit is old. Now imagine if we could combine the magical nature of his music with modern harmonies. I imagine we can break new ground. No one said the chords had to change on every other beat (or else it wouldn't sound modern), but in the sense of thinking about harmony from the ground-up is what I'm referring to.

I have no business giving music advice to seasoned vets but I think I'm on to something here unless someone wishes to object.


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## mverta

Well it's true we only have 12 notes... I mean, really, how many more ways can you put them together? And we only have 26 letters in the alphabet, which is why everything that's ever going to be written has already been written. As for representational art: we've been drawing pictures of horses for 30,000 years, going all the way back to cave drawings, but really - enough is enough. I also don't understand why my son is going to have to learn about falling in love and heartbreak... that's been done to death, too. Apparently it's true: there is nothing new under the sun. Nothing more to be said; nothing more to be done; nothing more to learn. It's all sloppy seconds. Yet life goes on. 

Looking at history one might almost suggest the preposterous idea that "new" isn't a particularly valuable commodity; that life lessons transcend temporality; that we have more in common, as people, with our ancestors than not; that there may yet be things of value to say even in mediums as tired as tonal concert music, or representational art.

_Mike


----------



## mverta

Well it's true we only have 12 notes... I mean, really, how many more ways can you put them together? And we only have 26 letters in the alphabet, which is why everything that's ever going to be written has already been written. As for representational art: we've been drawing pictures of horses for 30,000 years, going all the way back to cave drawings, but really - enough is enough. I also don't understand why my son is going to have to learn about falling in love and heartbreak... that's been done to death, too. Apparently it's true: there is nothing new under the sun. Nothing more to be said; nothing more to be done; nothing more to learn. It's all sloppy seconds. Yet life goes on. 

Looking at history one might almost suggest the preposterous idea that "new" isn't a particularly valuable commodity; that life lessons transcend temporality; that we have more in common, as people, with our ancestors than not; that there may yet be things of value to say even in mediums as tired as tonal concert music, or representational art.

_Mike


----------



## synergy543

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

Mike, give it up. What you just wrote was already written in the previous post...verbatim. :D 

Well, the "Lost World" is a great example of how a story can be retold and still be wonderfully fresh and new. Written in 1912 by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, and then re-written again in 1995 as Jurassic Park. Yet, to the viewer who knows both, Jurassic Park is not a boring re-hash, its wonderfully fresh and new. If it can be done with words, it can certainly be done with music too. Interestingly, both Jules Verne and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle were worried about these same problems (of no more places to explore) over 100 years ago.


----------



## autopilot

Jay - there's always something new to say. 

Arguing that we only have the 12 or 7 or 5 notes forgets that harmony and melody aren't the only part of the musical language. 

If all you want to do is write music like the parts of the Western tonal tradition that took that as far as it went, because that's all you like or define music as, then maybe there is nothing left to say. 


On that - in my little caffeine riddled mind - Western classical music has always emphasised that over the other elements - and part of my guess to that is because it's easiest to record using our notation system, and therefore easier to study. 

There's plenty of new accessible stuff to explore in rhythm in particular, and tone colour, and use of tempo / meter etc - something that film music often does really well by necessity. 

I suspect our great opportunity of this era is to bring other those other elements into the orchestra and make it sound like they're not shoehorned in there. Other instrument, but not make it sound hybrid. People probably thought the valve trumpet sounded weird at first. But what an opportunity that turned out to be. 

If someone believe symphonic orchestral music is a static art - then I guess for them it is, but I'm still excited by its possibilities. 

"Anything you do, let it come from you, then it will be new. Give us more to see"

- That Sondheim bloke. 

Better get back to the pre-school music


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

Yes, every second of 100,000 years of human civilization validates your position, synergy. it is also why Joseph Campbell's monomyth is such a valid theory: we all have the same basic lessons to learn and always have. When John Williams wrote Star Wars he was not breaking any new ground, and yet the second I heard it I knew what I was going to do with my life. And this is even after Stravinsky, mind you. After there was nothing more to say 

_Mike


----------



## synthetic

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

<applause>


----------



## RyBen

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

Yeah, autopilot, there are many possibilities just looking from a timbral standpoint. Even with traditional instruments there's more combinations than we care to bother with. Look at the woodwinds for example. They each have their own character yet we just mash them together because we know not what to do with them, or worst case scenario, leave them out completely. Of course in that situation, it's timbral color vs power, but I think power can be conveyed in more ways than just sheer loudness.

Now creating new instruments would be interesting, though I'm not sure who would bother going through the trouble. It still amazes me that each and every instrument was engineered in a sense. We think of music as such an emotional thing, but look at the instruments we use that require such mechanical and technical precision LOL. And somehow this has connected with the physically intangible idea of music. Amazing.

I don't know if I represent a chunk of other composers/musicians out there but I'm a bit stubborn when it comes to orchestral music in the sense that I like to stick to traditional instruments and see how far I can push them. I only use electronic elements due to modern demand but if it were up to me, I'd have everything 100 percent acoustic. It feels like there must be some sort of stability and standardization among the symphonic template IMO. After all, that's what has enabled hundreds among thousands of composers to comfortably compose knowing "these are the tools I have at my disposal." Sure, I don't mind us adding more instruments, but I don't see the point when modern composers barely exploit the current ones. It's all brass and string tuttis nowadays from what I see.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

RyBen, even within a single discipline - say if you've studied orchestration at all - you know that if you had two lifetimes you could never master it. There is no endgame.


----------



## EastWest Lurker

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**



mverta @ Mon Aug 15 said:


> Yes, every second of 100,000 years of human civilization validates your position, synergy. it is also why Joseph Campbell's monomyth is such a valid theory: we all have the same basic lessons to learn and always have. When John Williams wrote Star Wars he was not breaking any new ground, and yet the second I heard it I knew what I was going to do with my life. And this is even after Stravinsky, mind you. After there was nothing more to say
> 
> _Mike



As you know, unlike most here, I hold concert hall music and fine art to a different standard than film music or pop music, even though I love them all. 

I maybe would rather be John Williams than Bela Bartok or Maurice Ravel but I don't view them as equally important artists. And my guess is if you ask John, neither does he.

But good lord, let's not rehash that argument again


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

Once somebody told me, everything must of been written by now, there must be a limitation. And my analogy was how we distinctively recognize a face even among millions and millions of people and centuries. It's still the same basic head structure, 2 eyes, a nose and a mouth, but somehow we NEVER mistaken one face for another.


----------



## EastWest Lurker

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**



Guy Bacos @ Mon Aug 15 said:


> Once somebody told me, everything must of been written by now, there must be a limitation. And my analogy was how we distinctively recognize a face even among millions and millions of people and centuries. It's still the same basic head structure, 2 eyes, a nose and a mouth, but somehow we NEVER mistaken one face for another.



Atre you kidding? Do you know how many times a week someone in a restaurant or movie asks me if I am Larry David? :lol:


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## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

Yeah, about half as often as people ask me if I'm David Schwimmer.


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

Well we could push that a little further and say all Chinese look alike. The people that have seen those faces enough to print the subtle features in their head would never make that mistake.


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## RyBen

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

I'm not saying anyone has to master anything, just _consider_ expanding our orchestration vocabulary. I think if a person dedicated just a couple months to a year focusing ONLY on instrumental combinations, they could do wonders in that area compared to most composers. I do agree it can never be mastered, but we can definitely improve on what's been tried and proven successful. Once again it's simply one of those "if anyone cares to do it" situations, really.

To add even more to this, I'll point out that the separation of composer and orchestrator may be responsible for the lack of timbral innovations today. The same orchestrator working under numerous composers just means another factor of conformity. It seems like today you need a whole _team_ to make a score lol, though I'm aware that I must put the time factor into consideration.

I know it's hard to _master_, but I don't think it's hard to _try._


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

I wasn't actually arguing your point, RyBen, more adding to it. But the whole "needing ten orchestrators" today thing has nothing to do with speed everything to do with composers not knowing what they're doing and needing co-composers. Williams' sketches are very specific about the orchestration, such that what's left to do is essentially proofreading, and he manages to turn out plenty of work in time with 1 or 2 people tops. In the video I'll be posting in the next few days, you'll see the orchestration and compositional process happening simultaneously and it's very quick.


----------



## RyBen

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

"next few days" LOL. You said that a couple days ago. Nonetheless, I look forward to seeing that!


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

Yes, I know. It's an hour of material that needs graphics, mixing, rendering and uploading. I'm particular about the quality of stuff I post. Sorry for the delay.


----------



## David Story

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

Great Composers Innovate:
Beethoven, Stravinsky

or Culminate:
Brahms, John Williams

There's no innovation left in tonal harmony. But there's plenty of good music possible using that technique. If you aim for greatness and use tonal harmony, you might culminate the ideas of the innovators that went before you. Mozart did a lot with I vi IV V.

I love John and regard him as a great living composer. Steve Reich is also a great composer, and an innovator. John learns technique from Steve. John can be better at applying it, imho.

I don't say culminating is any greater than innovating. They're both difficult and creative.

If you're composing tonal concert music in 2011 I feel you have to do it exceedingly well to be relevant. Frankly, I think The Race is a strong concert piece.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

If I thought there was truly a venue for it, I'd write concert music, or opera, in a heartbeat. I think right now with the concert world fighting just to keep the doors open, while you_ could_ make the argument that now's precisely the time for new works - approachable crowd-pleasers - they're going to stick with the well-worn, time-tested, approachable crowd-pleasers instead. I keep an eye out...

_Mike


----------



## autopilot

And of course the other thing is that orchestras and their producers don't have to pay to perform most of the old well-worn, time-tested crowd - pleasers as they are (well and truly in some cases) in the public domain anyway.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

I, for one, would waive any and all performance fees if it'd help keep the orchestras alive. And I'm not the only one!

_Mike


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

What's wrong with writing an opera or ballet for less money and smaller public? If it's something that will fulfill you, you should do it at some point, as long as you have enough to put food on the table. If you let the system take over, the creativity will die very soon.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

Admittedly I haven't done much probing in this department, but venues seem in short supply, especially for work of any real substance. Somebody's got to pay for the space, the rehearsal time and the performance. Again, perhaps there's just a "whole world" out there for this sort of thing, but if so, you sure can't see it from my house.

_Mike


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

You could do it with the hope it will get played someday and for your own satisfaction. Eventually people will want to play and record your works, if they're good. This is what's happening to me, more and more.

Good thing Charles Ives didn't wait to for the perfect venue before writing.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

I almost can't write without an audience; without a venue; without a deadline.  Feels like masturbating. I write from the audience's faces backwards. For little sketches, sure - they're practice. But nothing of substance. I just don't bring my A-Game until Game Day. Sort of always been that way. But then again, I've sort of always been on stage, being a little ham from the get-go 


_Mike


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

Well, I don't think the SuperBowl half time show is ready for these venues yet.


----------



## dannthr

Rudy?


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

Why do I feel like I should get the reference?

_Mike


----------



## Scrianinoff

What a lively debates! Then to think what lovely symphonies and concerti could have been written during that time by some of us.


----------



## respho

>> 5) The Mind's Ear - Learning to orchestrate from the brain, outward.

Thanks for this.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

You're more than welcome; glad you found it useful. I wasn't so sure about that one, as our processes can be so individual. I feel the same way about the live composing video I just shot. But ultimately, if there's even one little gem in there which makes your process easier; which empowers you and makes your writing more fluid, fun, and successful, then I'm for it.


_Mike


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

Hello, [username]!

With the thread having just passed 40,000 views, I'm wondering if you can help me decide whether my other social media outlets are relevant by Like-ing my Facebook page (or not). If enough of the members - and guests, especially! - do so, then I will keep the page, otherwise I'd just as soon have one less thing to check. 

Click on the image below to be taken to Facebook. Thanks!


----------



## autopilot

Already a facebooker liker Mike. 

But this is the place to talk music. Facebook is the place to discuss bad gags, jokes, Charlie Sheen and fat people.  

(and how did you do the hello "username" thingy - you sneaky devil


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

Consider this an experiment to test communications channels if I were, say, indisposed on projects enough that my usual conduct here wasn't possible.

_Mike


----------



## MichalCielecki

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**



mverta @ 8/16/2011 said:


> I almost can't write without an audience; without a venue; without a deadline.



Haha! Same here. For some reason, writing music is not as much fun if there is no purpose. There is nothing more encouraging than to see one's composition to bring second life to a film or a video game.

Cheers,
Michal


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

For some people money is a factor for composing, others a projects, others a crowd, not that I feel it's unhealthy to write music this way, cause we DO need these things and I myself take advantage of them as well, but I prefer the idea of when you have something to express, you can express it through music without any additional incentive, just like having a personal diary. Hopefully one doesn't paralyze the other.


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**



mverta @ Tue Aug 16 said:


> Hello, [username]!
> 
> With the thread having just passed 40,000 views, I'm wondering if you can help me decide whether my other social media outlets are relevant by Like-ing my Facebook page (or not). If enough of the members - and guests, especially! - do so, then I will keep the page, otherwise I'd just as soon have one less thing to check.
> 
> Click on the image below to be taken to Facebook. Thanks!



Hello Mike, 

well, i am not actually moderating this section of VI.
I am flatered that you turn to me for advice though :wink: 
but I'm afraid that I can't make that decision for you.

The quality of your work, and the fact that you have chosen to create only one thread to showcase all of your work, probably explain why this thread is so inflated.
You can also try creating a new thread everytime you have a new piece to offer this community...

And i have no problem with you linking this page to FB... but then again, I m not moderating this page...

cheers and keep up the great work!


----------



## nikolas

Ok! I'm completely weirded by this! mike used the tag [ username ] without the space, so you, [username], can read your name again and again! Clever, nice and buffling at the same time! :D heh...


----------



## germancomponist

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**



mverta @ Wed Aug 17 said:


> Hello, [username]!
> 
> With the thread having just passed 40,000 views, I'm wondering if you can help me decide whether my other social media outlets are relevant by Like-ing my Facebook page (or not). If enough of the members - and guests, especially! - do so, then I will keep the page, otherwise I'd just as soon have one less thing to check.
> 
> Click on the image below to be taken to Facebook. Thanks!



Hm, what a question, Mike. 

I for myself are mostly on facebook, skype and here at VI. At VI I feel like at home. On facebook for sure there are much more pro composers, and maybe we can make them interested to your Facebook page? 

I will share there your last link! o-[][]-o


----------



## Mike Greene

Okay, now let me try:

In a super secret poll of all the lady members of the forum, they came up with a clear winner as to who the sexiest member is here: It's [username]!

Then, in another super secret poll, this time of all the male members of the forum, they came up with the same clear winner for who the sexiest member is! [username] again!

Wow, [username] sure is one sexy person!


----------



## nikolas

I do think that [username] is off tracking the thread! [username] should stop now and go back to business, ok [username]?


----------



## germancomponist

Mike Greene @ Wed Aug 17 said:


> Okay, now let me try:
> 
> In a super secret poll of all the lady members of the forum, they came up with a clear winner as to who the sexiest member is here: It's [username]!
> 
> Then, in another super secret poll, this time of all the male members of the forum, they came up with the same clear winner for who the sexiest member is! [username] again!
> 
> Wow, [username] sure is one sexy person!



LOL! o=< o/~ 

I am married and very happy with my wife! and my children!


----------



## impressions

ok, what the hell is going on here?
look, i'm not into facebook liking shmiking and collecting friends which are incredibly more talented than me, its really bad publicity for me, so if anyone wants to replace my "sexiness" you're more than welcome.

ok nikolas?

i mean, i'm amused, but..i don't like that kind of attention, spank you very much


----------



## germancomponist

nikolas @ Wed Aug 17 said:


> Ok! I'm completely weirded by this! mike used the tag [ username ] without the space, so you, germancomponist, can read your name again and again! Clever, nice and buffling at the same time!



Opssss, am I missing something? It was not me who did this, and you can be sure that I don`t have to read my name again and again....! 

Everything ok with you?


----------



## Scrianinoff

Neat trick!


----------



## Mike Greene

What's going on is that there's a code in the forum software where if you type [ username ] (except, as Nicolas said, don't use spaces,) then when the software displays the post, it substitutes [ username ] with *your* name. In this case: [username].

Really, it should be obvious that it was just a trick, because as everybody knows, the REAL sexiest person here is Mike Greene, not [username]. :mrgreen:


----------



## germancomponist

Mike Greene @ Wed Aug 17 said:


> What's going on is that there's a code in the forum software where if you type [ username ] (except, as Nicolas said, don't use spaces,) then when the software displays the post, it substitutes [username ] with *your* name.
> 
> Really, it should be obvious that it was just a trick, because as everybody knows, the REAL sexiest person here is Mike Greene, not [username]. I mean, everybody knows that, right?
> 
> :mrgreen:


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

Geez, all this love for my BBCode tag, and none for the super-sexy semi-transparent graphic. I'm sad.

_Mike


----------



## germancomponist

Mike, at this time I was thinking about the grahik. Are you doing websites, too?


----------



## ysnyvz

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

Edit: ok i got it. ''[ username ] without spaces'' is my nickname :roll:


----------



## Uorbit

nikolas @ Wed Aug 17 said:


> I do think that [username] is off tracking the thread! [username] should stop now and go back to business, ok [username]?



Uorbit here. Thanks Nikolas. You made me laugh. I was working and stumbled on this thread... and no, I wasn't tracking this thread.... but I may now.

I want to take this moment to thank you ALL for voting me most sexy of them all. Course, I knew this for a long time but never thought it would go public.

Don't make me get a v.i. control restraining order!

Now back to work.

Your sexy friend,

Uorbit


----------



## Scrianinoff

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**



mverta @ Wed 17 Aug said:


> Geez, all this love for my BBCode tag, and none for the super-sexy semi-transparent graphic. I'm sad.
> 
> _Mike



Yes, sorry, I forgot to mention, semi transparent, wow, so much better than your work on r2d2!


----------



## nikolas

LMAO! This thread is getting better and better to say the least!


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

Man, this is highly unethical stuff :twisted: 

If it wasn't for the fact that I was voted sexiest man on VI-Control, i think i'd report you in a heart beat Mr. Verta....

And Mike :mrgreen: , your sports car may compensate some, but come on...


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**



Scrianinoff @ Wed Aug 17 said:


> Yes, sorry, I forgot to mention, semi transparent, wow, so much better than your work on r2d2!



You can have both!









_Mike


----------



## Angel

Cool... just had a WTF-feeling for some minutes now


----------



## Leon Willett

Everything got confuzing :(


----------



## nikolas

Yes. BBcoding is a great way not only to get more views, but to beep up a thread as well (for 40 posts now  )


----------



## dedersen

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

And to keep people away from the fact that a long promised video has yet to materialize...


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

[username]
WTF?!
[username]
This is fun!
[username]
Hahaha!
[username]
<pulls out tongue> lag-a-lag-a-lag-a-lag (sound of tongue wagging)
[username]
This is like an old name-stamp!
[username]
I want blinking lights around my name as well!
[username][username][username][username]
8) :lol:


----------



## rabiang

dear god.


----------



## impressions

troll on 12 oclock.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

After 500 posts, I think the thread can handle a little silliness. Anyway, back to editing the hour-long video...


_Mike


----------



## hbuus

I'm the sexiest man alive.

hbuus


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

Ned, you fan boy, you are embarassing me now...


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

hbuus @ Thu Aug 18 said:


> I'm the sexiest man alive.
> 
> hbuus



sore loser...


----------



## RiffWraith

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

Huh, what???? lol


----------



## hbuus

Err, Patrick...so I have a sense of humor. Kill me.


----------



## R.Cato

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

OK, wtf. (o)

I know that Darth Bach (avatar) is very sexy, so thanks a lot. =o


----------



## germancomponist

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

This is very sexy: http://www.bohnes.de/images/A2500.jpg


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

hbuus @ Thu Aug 18 said:


> Err, Patrick...so I have a sense of humor. Kill me.



I was joking too dude... o-[][]-o


----------



## RiffWraith

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

Can someone explain to me Mike's post from the other page...and the other posts that involved me...:lol:


----------



## nikolas

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**



RiffWraith @ Fri Aug 19 said:


> Can someone explain to me Mike's post from the other page...and the other posts that involved me...:lol:


yes, by all means and for the third time in this thread.

Mike used a BBCode tag that's [ username ] without the spaces. This brings the name of the user reading the post out. Right now, [username], you will be reading your name, but if you quote me you'll see that I don't know to whom I'm talking to, and just used the tag.


----------



## germancomponist

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**



nikolas @ Fri Aug 19 said:


> RiffWraith @ Fri Aug 19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can someone explain to me Mike's post from the other page...and the other posts that involved me...:lol:
> 
> 
> 
> yes, by all means and for the third time in this thread.
> 
> Mike used a BBCode tag that's [ username ] without the spaces. This brings the name of the user reading the post out. Right now, [username], you will be reading your name, but if you quote me you'll see that I don't know to whom I'm talking to, and just used the tag.
Click to expand...


So, your post was not meant to myself. Hehe, I thought what happend with Nikolas.... . 
o-[][]-o


----------



## nikolas

Of course it wasn't. I thought it was clear already...

I'm getting very itchy to delete (or move around) posts if this keeps going with the confusion and all that! :-/


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**

Alright, kids - that's enough of that, now.

Back to the business at hand: The final mix* of "The Race."




The Race - Final Mix


_Mike










*Yeah. Sure.


----------



## hbuus

Patrick de Caumette @ Fri Aug 19 said:


> hbuus @ Thu Aug 18 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Err, Patrick...so I have a sense of humor. Kill me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was joking too dude... o-[][]-o
Click to expand...


Oh ok! No harm done o-[][]-o


----------



## Stephen Baysted

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/19 - The Race: Final Mix*

Blimey, I go away for a few days and when I get back everyone is talking about me. :mrgreen:


----------



## synergy543

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**



mverta @ Fri Aug 19 said:


> Back to the business at hand: The final mix* of "The Race."
> 
> 
> The Race - Final Mix


Congratulations Mike. That's quite a transformation from the tree mic mix. The added ambience makes a huge difference - adding space really brings it alive! 
And the mix brings out the dynamics nicely. For example, the strings at 3m11s are so much more alive. This must be from a different take rather than you're riding the faders...its too natural sounding.

I gather the additional ambience I'm hearing is mostly added reverb and not just distant mics? (and some spots?) Which reverb?

This really shows how much a mix can really transform a recording. I assume its your mix and not Shawns?

I love the effects of placement/panning such as at 2m43s and other spots, it really adds to the spatial effect. Why so different from the tree mics though I wonder?

Must've been hellova a mixing job. If you care to elaborate I'm all ears.... o-[][]-o


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**



mverta @ Fri Aug 19 said:


> Alright, kids - that's enough of that, now.
> 
> Back to the business at hand: The final mix* of "The Race."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Race - Final Mix
> 
> 
> _Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MODS: FUN AS IT WAS, PLEASE DELETE ALL POSTS BETWEEN MY FACEBOOK REQUEST AND THIS ONE, FOR THE THREAD'S SAKE  THANK YOU!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Yeah. Sure.



nah, i think that we should leave it just the way it is, to teach you a lesson about manipulating the code in order to maximize publicity... :mrgreen: =o 

Imagine what would happen here next, if everyone starts doing the same thing...
>8o >8o >8o


----------



## synergy543

Atta boy! Teach 'em a lesson! That's what the forums about....(I guess) :?

[username], so what do you think about the new mix?


----------



## EastWest Lurker

synergy543 @ Fri Aug 19 said:


> Atta boy! Teach 'em a lesson! That's what the forums about....(I guess) :?
> 
> [username], so what do you think about the new mix?



A little wetter than I would like but nice!


----------



## RiffWraith

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/19 - The Race: Final Mix*

Hey - he was talking to me, not you....back off, bud!


----------



## EastWest Lurker

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/19 - The Race: Final Mix*



RiffWraith @ Fri Aug 19 said:


> Hey - he was talking to me, not you....back off, bud!



Well, it came up EastWest Lurker here.

Anyway, why would he possibly want YOUR opinion? :twisted:


----------



## sherief83

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/6 - LOIS and CLARK**



mverta @ Fri Aug 19 said:


> Alright, kids - that's enough of that, now.
> 
> Back to the business at hand: The final mix* of "The Race."
> 
> 
> The Race - Final Mix
> _Mike



Absolutely Fantastic Man. Congratulations and thank you for sharing it with us =o


----------



## RiffWraith

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/19 - The Race: Final Mix*



EastWest Lurker @ Fri Aug 19 said:


> Anyway, why would he possibly want YOUR opinion? :twisted:



It comes up with whatever name you are logged in as. If you log in as ashermusic, it will say:

_ashermusic, so what do you think about the new mix?_

And I was just joking with the "back off bud", so relax, k?


----------



## germancomponist

Oh what a great mix, Mike! 

Your mix is the first music to what I have listent to in my new studio, what is not finished yet. We are testing today and it sounds awesome! Both, my new studio and your mix... .


----------



## EastWest Lurker

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/19 - The Race: Final Mix*



RiffWraith @ Fri Aug 19 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Fri Aug 19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, why would he possibly want YOUR opinion? :twisted:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It comes up with whatever name you are logged in as. If you log in as ashermusic, it will say:
> 
> _ashermusic, so what do you think about the new mix?_
> 
> And I was just joking with the "back off bud", so relax, k?
Click to expand...


Yes, I know, I was joking as well.

Humor really gets lost in internet dialogue unfortunately.


----------



## germancomponist

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/19 - The Race: Final Mix*



EastWest Lurker @ Fri Aug 19 said:


> Humor really gets lost in internet dialogue unfortunately.



+1

But not here! :mrgreen: 

Because I am a German I have to read words more often, to understand the words between the lines.... .

o-[][]-o o=<


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

synergy543 @ Fri Aug 19 said:


> Atta boy! Teach 'em a lesson! That's what the forums about....(I guess) :?
> 
> [username], so what do you think about the new mix?



I hadn't heard the first version, so can't compare...

Great work as usual. JW would be proud.
Nice to hear something more completed in terms of mix, compared to the speed writing exercises.
Overall great mix too.
Wish the oboe at 0:26 was a little more present, same for the wws at 1:00 and the tpt at 1:15 and 3:49. 
1st vlns line at 3:11 feels a little weird to me, like it isn't sure of itself...
Fun Herrmann quote at 3:38
wws at 4:03 also feel like they are a little too wet.

Congrats on a first class job!


----------



## David Story

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/19 - The Race: Final Mix*

Here's the stellar performance that was in the room. Kudos! 
The mix is the difference between good and great in recordings.
How's the music video?


----------



## synthetic

Sounds great Mike, huge improvement. I wished I could hear a bit more trombone, especially in the brass chorale at the very end. Otherwise great mix.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/19 - The Race: Final Mix*

There were tree mics, wide mics, LCR's for each section, and individual mics. The mix here is about 50% LCRs, 50% Trees, and a kiss of direct mic here and there. With that much prominence for the tree mics, which reveal the instruments' true balance, there isn't a lot of flexibility in terms of bringing things up and down in the mix - at least not without drawing instant attention to as much, because the sonic character of whatever instrument you're adjusting would change. So really the extra clarity, imaginging, and most of the leveling came simply by bringing the LCR's into the mix. Because there were things on the day, balance-wise, which I didn't get to address due to the other issues, I did do a couple of subtle level pushes in a few places, which I've never actually done before. I'm more bothered by that in principle than anything else; proper orchestrational balance means faders don't need moving after the fact.

In any case, I'm glad that we were able to recover more of the spirit of the piece - and the vibe on the day - through careful mixing.


_Mike


----------



## Casey Edwards

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/19 - The Race: Final Mix*

Sounds gorgeous Mike, now how about that score? :wink:


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/19 - The Race: Final Mix*

Thanks, Casey - yes, a lot of people have been requesting the score. There's been some publishing interest, so I have to hold back for the time being until I see if that pans out. If so, then it'll be available commercially, if not, then it'll be available publicly. Just hang tight 

_Mike


----------



## RyBen

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/19 - The Race: Final Mix*

Lol Mike. Before your response, I actually responded in my mind to Casey's question as if I were you.

"You can find the sheet music in your local music store" was my response. That's what I'd say at least.

Your help is definitely appreciated but not everything you do has to be a freebee.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/19 - The Race: Final Mix*

Trust me, not everything I do is free.  But I do try and make enough so that I can give away as much as possible. I find that to whatever degree I can make my art and my life about something other than money, the happier I am. It's a balance. 


_Mike


----------



## germancomponist

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/19 - The Race: Final Mix*



mverta @ Tue Aug 23 said:


> Trust me, not everything I do is free.  But I do try and make enough so that I can give away as much as possible. I find that to whatever degree I can make my art and my life about something other than money, the happier I am. It's a balance.
> 
> 
> _Mike



o-[][]-o o-[][]-o o-[][]-o 

A very good balance and attitude!


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/19 - The Race: Final Mix*

In fact, just in case, let's do a poll and see what the interest is really like:

Online Interest Poll for the Score to "The Race"

_Mike


----------



## Casey Edwards

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/19 - The Race: Final Mix*



RyBen @ Tue Aug 23 said:


> Lol Mike. Before your response, I actually responded in my mind to Casey's question as if I were you.
> 
> "You can find the sheet music in your local music store" was my response. That's what I'd say at least.
> 
> Your help is definitely appreciated but not everything you do has to be a freebee.



I only said "how about that score?" I never asked for a freebie and knew that there was publishing interest. I was merely looking for an update on its pending status.

And Mike, you better bet I pushed yes on that poll! I vote for spiral bound or "Lay Flat Sewn-Binding." I can't stand much of anything else when I'm trying to study.


----------



## zacnelson

I was probably different to most of you in that I actually didn't listen to The Race mockup prior to hearing the real orchestra version. Obviously the real version sounds incredible and of the same quality as a Hollywood blockbuster. But my comment here is that the comparison between the two versions really highlights how effective the mockup was. The mockup really captures the excitement and dynamics of the music and the loud parts especially sound pretty realistic.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/25 - The Race Score Interest Poll*

Wow, guys! - Way bigger response to the score poll than I was expecting. If this keeps up, then I'm definitely going to have to make it happen. I'm thinking a sort of Hal-Leonard-type thing like the Williams Signature stuff. (Naturally. :roll: ) But seriously, they're my favorite size for review scores.

_Mike


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/25 - The Race Score Interest Poll*

Okay, sportsfans, looks like this is a go. I have some score preparation and printing to do, and then will provide a link to order from!

Thanks everybody for the support and interest! 


_Mike


----------



## EastWest Lurker

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/25 - The Race Score Interest Poll*



mverta @ Tue Aug 30 said:


> Okay, sportsfans,
> 
> 
> _Mike



Ah, a Great Santini reference?


----------



## dedersen

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/25 - The Race Score Interest Poll*

So, Mike, is that video coming any time soon? Sounded like it might be a very interesting watch, I'd be quite curious to peek over your shoulder while you compose.


----------



## mwarsell

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/25 - The Race Score Interest Poll*

Mike,

Thanks for this thread, your music, the podcast and the video. You have an outstanding talent as a (midi) orchestrator. It's not hard to see who's your hero in the film music business 

I have some questions for you sir.

1) You said you train 12 hours a day. Now, where do you get the time for all this: real gigs, being with your (son? congrats, btw), friends, family, etc. I guess you don't have a day job eh 

2) Related to the above, how does your normal 12 train day go? What does it consist of?

3) In the video you use (and only) use the mod wheel controlled velocity samples. Are these the only ones you use? I mean even in, say, fast staccato passages you use these instead of the stacc. patch? 

4) Say you wanted to record something for 4 horns. Do you pull out a 4 or 8 horn patch and play chords with that? Or do you play the horns individually? With the first approach you'd actually have 16 or 32 horns playing. So it's not realistic. Or is it? I thinking about the philosophy of this, it might sound grander and cooler playing chords with 8 horn patch is it realistic? Does it matter? These are a bit rhetoric questions here, but I hope you get the point.

edit: 5) What does speed-writing mean exactly? How long does it take for you to do a speed-writing exercise? Does this include mixing and stuff?

Cheers,
Miika


----------



## Casey Edwards

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/25 - The Race Score Interest Poll*

Just checking in to see how that score publishing is coming along. I'd love to have a copy. 

Also, wasn't there something about a video of you writing via stream of consciousness?


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/25 - The Race Score Interest Poll*

Neck-deep in a gig. Will surface soon.

_Mike


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 10/26 - The Race Score NOW AVAILABLE!**









*The Race* - $35.00 US. 31 pages, spiral-bound, 10.5"x14"


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/25 - The Race Score Interest Poll*



mwarsell @ Mon Sep 26 said:


> Mike,
> 
> I have some questions for you sir.
> 
> 1) You said you train 12 hours a day. Now, where do you get the time for all this: real gigs, being with your (son? congrats, btw), friends, family, etc. I guess you don't have a day job eh



This is between gigs, primarily. And before my son.  I'm lucky to get 4 hr./day during the downtime now. But one way or another, I write every day. 



mwarsell @ Mon Sep 26 said:


> 2) Related to the above, how does your normal 12 train day go? What does it consist of?



Details early in the thread, I'm just sure of it. Varies a lot, but it's mostly about keeping my "mind's ear" sharp (there's a podcast on that concept). 



mwarsell @ Mon Sep 26 said:


> 3) In the video you use (and only) use the mod wheel controlled velocity samples. Are these the only ones you use? I mean even in, say, fast staccato passages you use these instead of the stacc. patch?



For staccatos, I generally use velocity-controlled samples, instead of modwheel-controlled, dynamically-crossfaded samples. 



mwarsell @ Mon Sep 26 said:


> 4) Say you wanted to record something for 4 horns. Do you pull out a 4 or 8 horn patch and play chords with that? Or do you play the horns individually? With the first approach you'd actually have 16 or 32 horns playing. So it's not realistic. Or is it? I thinking about the philosophy of this, it might sound grander and cooler playing chords with 8 horn patch is it realistic? Does it matter? These are a bit rhetoric questions here, but I hope you get the point.



It doesn't have to be real; it has to sound right. If you have a sample of 8 horns, pressing two keys doesn't make the sound of 16 horns - they're not real, so they're not blending and adding to each other in any natural way. This is an upside of the downside of samples. A four-note chord for 8-horn-sample does NOT sound like 32 horns would sound.



mwarsell @ Mon Sep 26 said:


> edit: 5) What does speed-writing mean exactly? How long does it take for you to do a speed-writing exercise? Does this include mixing and stuff?



Speed-writing means "one day" start-to-finish; conceived, performed, mixed, posted. Usually "one day" is about 12 hours. 


Thanks!

_Mike


----------



## Pochflyboy

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/25 - The Race Score Interest Poll*



mverta @ Wed Oct 26 said:


> A four-note chord for 8-horn-sample does NOT sound like 32 horns would sound.



I wish more people would understand this. So many seem to get completely bent out of shape about there being "double the instruments" when you push two notes. Its just not the case! (in most situations with samples)


----------



## germancomponist

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/25 - The Race Score Interest Poll*



Pochflyboy @ Wed Oct 26 said:


> mverta @ Wed Oct 26 said:
> 
> 
> 
> A four-note chord for 8-horn-sample does NOT sound like 32 horns would sound.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wish more people would understand this. So many seem to get completely bent out of shape about there being "double the instruments" when you push two notes. Its just not the case! (in most situations with samples)
Click to expand...


+1


----------



## eschroder

I clicked the link but it says my cart is empty.. what am I doing wrong? I WANT this score! =]


----------



## eschroder

Sorry, not empty... it says "expired"


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 10/26 - The Race Score NOW AVAILABLE!**

Fixed. Apologies!


_Mike


----------



## eschroder

Stoked, just ordered it!


----------



## Steve Martin

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 10/26 - The Race Score NOW AVAILABLE!**

Hi Mike,

thanks for all of the hard work getting this score done for us.

I've just ordered it and I'm really looking forward to getting this!

best,

Steve :D


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 10/26 - The Race Score NOW AVAILABLE!**

Interestingly, a disproportionately high percentage of the orders so far are from Australia... some serious studying going on down under...!


_Mike


----------



## gyprock

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 10/26 - The Race Score NOW AVAILABLE!**

Mike,

Our Aussie $ is so strong at the moment (approx US$1.07) so the whole nation is glued to the net watching for deals. At one time our $ went as low as US$0.48 so you can understand why we want to throw some money around now.

Alex


----------



## George Caplan

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 10/26 - The Race Score NOW AVAILABLE!**

that must have taken a lot of hard work. it s got a great sound and we had young sherlock holmes on the other day and it has that type of sound thats why i comment on it. i think the music was by bruce broughton 30 years ago.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 10/26 - The Race Score NOW AVAILABLE!**

Quick shipping update to everyone who's ordered so far:

The first batch of scores are going out Saturday. At the last second, I decided I didn't like the covers - they showed fingerprints too easily - so I opted for a nice UV-coated treatment instead and had them re-done. If you're like me, these things are subject to a lot of wear and tear, so they need to be rigid, sturdy, _and_ attractive. I mean, that's what we pay for, right?

Also, to answer a few inquiries: Yes, they come with a CD of the recording!

Thanks to everyone who's ordered so far!


_Mike


----------



## dedersen

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 10/26 - The Race Score NOW AVAILABLE!**

Does it come with the DAW project file as well? :D

I'm definitely grabbing this. Wonderful idea, Mike, to publish this score.

EDIT: Hm. Would you consider making a PDF purchase possible? With tax and shipping it comes to nearly $90...crazy Danish import taxes.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 10/26 - The Race Score NOW AVAILABLE!**

Actually, it would be interesting to hear someone else do a mock-up of it...!

_Mike

P.S. I will not be making a .pdf available, but I'm suspicious of your costs, there! Let me look at the shipping for you, because that's ridiculous!


----------



## dedersen

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 10/26 - The Race Score NOW AVAILABLE!**

The costs are so high due to Danish import taxes. The cost on the webpage only adds up to $46 with shipping, which is fine. However, import tax plus a ridiculously high adminstration fee for handling the import tax bumps it up to $87. "Free market". 

The usual trick for handling this is to ship the product as a "gift", or setting the value to $0. This only becomes a problem in case the package is lost, but that's a risk usually worth taking.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 10/26 - The Race Score NOW AVAILABLE!**

PM me and we'll work it out!

_Mike


----------



## Farkle

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 10/26 - The Race Score NOW AVAILABLE!**

Just purchased it. Thank you for taking the time to share this piece with the community, Mike! Can't wait to check out your brass writing; it's gonna be AWESOME! 

Mike


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 10/26 - The Race Score NOW AVAILABLE!**


 _Q: What format is the score in?_

A: The score is in a standard orchestral transposed format as shown:




_Click image for full-resolution preview._

_Q: Are you available to answer questions about the score?_

A: I am at least _reasonably_ available, yes. Part of why I wanted to publish this was precisely so that people studying the orchestration could ask about the "whys" of something; it's the one piece of the puzzle we rarely get to solve.


_Mike


----------



## synergy543

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 10/26 - The Race Score NOW AVAILABLE!**



mverta @ Fri Nov 04 said:


> _Q: Are you available to answer questions about the score?_
> 
> A: I am at least _reasonably_ available, yes. Part of why I wanted to publish this was precisely so that people studying the orchestration could ask about the "whys" of something; it's the one piece of the puzzle we rarely get to solve.[/list]


Mike, its really great of you to share not only your score, but also your knowledge with others. Hats off to you!

Q1 - What preceeded this orchestration? Did you write to a sequence? Or sketch a draft on a few staves?

Q2 - As you're orchestrating, do you have a reduction of the score? If not, what do you reference?

Cheers,

Greg


----------



## bwherry

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 10/26 - The Race Score NOW AVAILABLE!**

I got a pretty sweet package from UPS today...  It looks great - thanks Mike!

Brian


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 10/26 - The Race Score NOW AVAILABLE!**

Cool - enjoy!

Oh, and synergy/Greg - your answer is coming in the Live Composing video, Part One of which I'll be posting tomorrow.

_Mike


----------



## sbkp

Got mine this afternoon. Thanks!


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 10/26 - The Race Score NOW AVAILABLE!**

I get a lot of questions about my composition process, especially what I do to increase the speed at which I generate cues. For whatever reason, I got a ton of these questions after posting my piece "Lois and Clark" a couple of months ago. They can be difficult questions to answer. So what I decided to do was roll camera and screencast an hour of my process, live, composing a cue in the style of "Lois and Clark" in real-time. Along the way, I discuss the hows and whys of the decisions I'm making, from the conceptual roots through the performance, ultimately generating a minute of finished music.

DISCLAIMER #1: This is intentionally raw, unedited, unscripted, and organic. The information itself could probably be paired down into 15 minutes. But what you'd lose is witnessing the organic decision-making process as it unfolds, and I think this is the most effective way to articulate an answer to the questions. 

DISCLAIMER #2: I'm not telling you how to write. You do what works for you. This is how _I _write, and hopefully, something you see in the process makes _your_ process a bit easier.






_Click to Play Part One._

Part One is 15 minutes in length, and introduces the concepts of dramatic mirroring, chordally-based melodies/motifs, and planting anchors - all of which I determine prior to writing. The composing itself begins in Part Two.


I hope you find it useful. Enjoy!


_Mike


----------



## sherief83

Nice sir! Thank you so much for sharing! will be checking it out.


----------



## Studio E

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/11 - Live Composing Video Pt.1 is UP!"*

Really nice Mike! You could charge for this if you wanted. I know I'll learn plenty from watching the whole thing but also, it just gives me confidence in my approach and sort of reenforces some of my gut instincts, while adding a whole lot of organized thoughts which I surely lack. Thanks so much!


----------



## dedersen

It is really incredibly generous of you to share this, Mike.


----------



## CouchCow

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/11 - Live Composing Video Pt.1 is UP!"*

Thank you for sharing this enlightening process Mike!


----------



## ryanstrong

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/11 - Live Composing Video Pt.1 is UP!"*

Love ALL your screen casts and pod casts. SO informational wether fundamental or complex it's all good refreshers or points of conversation that we may not have thought about out loud.

Would purchase a DVD or any sort of educational videos like this if it was offered as a product, but certainly don't mind them being free. Needless to say THANK YOU.


----------



## David Story

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/11 - Live Composing Video Pt.1 is UP!"*

Fun, insightful and great examples. It's tough to describe how to write to picture. Most do it by instinct and experience, but you put it in words and examples. Thanks!

The Raiders March, "Can You Read My Mind", The Feather Theme, The Simpsons, "You've Got A Friend In Me", A Beautiful Mind, so many film themes outline their harmony. Plus a surprise.
There's a remarkable surprise in the Imperial March melody-harmony. I'm sure Mike knows it.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/11 - Live Composing Video Pt.1 is UP!"*





_Click to Play Part Two._

Part Two is 15 minutes in length, and covers the beginnings of the improv/composition, as well as my feelings on using scorepad and orchestrational voice-leading.

Enjoy!

_Mike


----------



## dfhagai

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/12 - Live Composing Video Pt.2 is UP!"*

These are great Mr. V, all aspects!
Thank you very much for sharing your experience & wisdom.


----------



## Hannesdm

Thanks Mike!
Much appreciated for doing this. 
Your videos are very inspiring!


----------



## RyBen

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/12 - Live Composing Video Pt.2 is UP!"*

What a waste of screen realestate  That said though, excellent videos. So far I've found that I tend to think quite similarly in terms of instrumental choice and how it connects with the emotion/texture. Strings have a softer way with the dissonances than the other groups IMO. It's also interesting just how organic the process is for you. While you don't just bang out chords, you do compose in a very improvisational way, then refine those ideas later on.

I love how you said "a little bit of old with a little big of new." That's the perfect way to summarize how any film score should be IMO.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/12 - Live Composing Video Pt.2 is UP!"*





_Click to Play Part Three._


Fair warning: this part is boring as hell. Yeah, there are a couple little gems thrown in, but it's mostly just watching me clam through performance over and over. I don't compose the second half of the cue until Part 4. People want to know my composing process? Well here it is  A lot of it ain't sexy.


----------



## Pando

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/13 - Live Composing Video Pt.3 is UP"*

This is absolutely fantastic, Mike. Thank you so much. Part 3 is the best, and it's actually the most fascinating (not boring at all), as it's unscripted and shows the process clearly as it happens. I'm sure everyone has their own techniques, but it's absolutely invaluable observing you as you're doing it.

I would also like to see a similar tutorial with a faster action piece at some point, but this is just great and it shows how to put together a lyrical part very well.

Oh, and that was an awesome knuckle crack in Part 1 at 00:45 :D


----------



## dedersen

I'll just repeat that I am in absolute awe of the generousity you are displaying in doing this, Mike. Not only are you willing to share all this, but the production quality of these videos is top notch. Great work, I am getting an espresso and looking forward to enjoying part 3.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/13 - Live Composing Video Pt.3 is UP"*

Thanks, guys for the kind words - so glad you're getting something out of them. If I do another one of these, Jesper, yes I'll do an action cue, and likely not bother with the narration/description, so you can get a better idea of how the flow actually goes in practice...

_Mike


----------



## PMortise

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/13 - Live Composing Video Pt.3 is UP"*

This is amazingly cool and generous of you, Mike! Thanks for this. =o


----------



## impressions

the amount of chops in these videos is a blast to listen and view! i took some of this out, for example i never thought of playing 6th's on the lower register, instead of 5th's, beautiful color.
it's a great insight, for williams style, and maybe even way of thinking..? i especially liked to see how you navigate through your jazz improvising skills and "improvising" the composition itself. like the decisions are much more crucial than an improviser, and has to have a logic of their own(something i had trouble to adjust to).

thank you for this..even though it just shows us how much more there is to know(but that's not a bad thing really unless you're lazy).

a big p.s.
when williams thought and articulated that superman phrase/chords, i think he spent ALOT of time finding it. when you have the concept layed in for you, chops, harmony, different melodies. it takes a whole lot more than a few minutes to invent these kind of level of ideas.


----------



## mverta

impressions @ Mon Nov 14 said:


> when williams thought and articulated that superman phrase/chords, i think he spent ALOT of time finding it. when you have the concept layed in for you, chops, harmony, different melodies. it takes a whole lot more than a few minutes to invent these kind of level of ideas.



In the interest of demystifying the process in general - which is part of what I try to do in the videos - I'd have to counter and say it depends on the degree to which you've internalized a particular style. Williams' style is absolutely, unquestionably, a very particular digesting of some key pieces/composers' works, filtered through a jazz sensibility. I think it's because I was a jazz studio pianist as well that I find that filter aesthetically pleasing and natural to control, and I happen to dig most of the same source pieces which clearly influenced Williams. Now, the chicken-and-the-egg question is: since I didn't know Williams was a jazz pianist when I began studying jazz at 11, was I drawn to jazz sort of osmotically, because I could sense it in his orchestral works? Or do I like Williams because I just already had an aesthetic bent towards those sorts of harmonies? I'll never know. But my point is (and I talk about this in the "Finding Your Own Voice" podcast) is that after a lifetime of working in and around the idiom, my original composition process is equally as fluid and fun as the sort of thing I'm doing in the video. So without stealing from the effort Williams spent in developing the material - and certainly, good motifs are harder rather than easier to conceive - I think also that when you're not fighting the chops, and have a clear mental picture of the harmonic aesthetic you're after, the process plays out fairly intuitively and naturally. While my work obviously has that sort of Williams flair, I don't re-write his material, and I don't have to necessarily worry about doing so, or running out of ideas. The aesthetic is a universe of potential. You just have to give yourself a strong chops base to have the widest access to it! What I really try to encourage is developing whatever skillset you need so that it's fun and rewarding!

_Mike


----------



## Alex Temple

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/13 - Live Composing Video Pt.3 is UP"*

Mike, thanks for doing this; these are great, informative videos! One thing I found especially interesting is when you're talking about melodies that outline their harmonies clearly. When you're taking this melody and then reusing over different types of harmonies, I guess you'd either need to change or omit notes, or leave the original ones in as is. With the background you have, at this point how much do you actually think about these types of decisions vs. just going with it and having your gut feeling generally be the right one?


----------



## nickhmusic

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/13 - Live Composing Video Pt.3 is UP"*

wow, thanks Mike, this is very kind of you. All the best to you o-[][]-o


----------



## Benji

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/13 - Live Composing Video Pt.3 is UP"*

This is quality stuff, I can't wait for Pt.4 ! o=<


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/13 - Live Composing Video Pt.3 is UP"*

YouTube is processing it now; should be up shortly and I'll post the link 

_Mike


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/13 - Live Composing Video Pt.3 is UP"*





_Click to Play Part Four._


_Mike

P.S. Alex your question deserves and in-depth answer; it's coming!


----------



## George Caplan

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/14 - Live Composing Video Final Part is UP"*

very informative all round. the very idea of playing the part and then splitting it up into different instruments is an eye opener and well done mike.


----------



## Hannesdm

Thank you again for those videos, Mike!

Strange there aren't more replies.. 
Come on people, this is extremely generous of him to do this! Show some love! 
Maybe you should post those videos in 'Sample Talk' like Daniel James does?

+1 on seeing you do an action type piece. 

Just put that camera on every time you do your daily training!


----------



## BoulderBrow

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/14 - Live Composing Video Final Part is UP"*

This is gold; informative and accessible, kinda like being a fly on the wall in Frankenstein's lab but in a good way :D


----------



## Ryan Scully

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/14 - Live Composing Video Final Part is UP"*

Thanks so much for doing this Mike! It was an entertaining and incredibly informative lesson!




Ryan :D


----------



## Farkle

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/14 - Live Composing Video Final Part is UP"*

I wanted to thank you, also, Mike! I picked up the Race, just arrived today; great score to study, great writing and orchestration, and combine that with this thoughtful, "no holds barred" creative process, it's wonderful, revealing, and encouraging! 


Mike Worth


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/14 - Live Composing Video Final Part is UP"*

Thanks for the kind words, guys!

Now, the answer I wanted to give to a couple questions about the Live Composing video would've taken a year to type, so here's a clip:

A Response to Questions about the Live Composing Video



_Mike


----------



## David Story

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/14 - Live Composing Video Final Part is UP"*

Thank you Mike. A Response to Questions is the finest of all your instructional posts. It's a clear look at how a professional composer develops their power tool set. Never seen that before. Though some academics try 

You have enough material now to handle interviews for years to come. 

Melodic scoring is rare today. It's worth repeating that modulating character themes is the backbone of Golden Era scores. You alter a tone or two to fit a major/minor or tonic/dominant relationship, and you take the theme and the audience to a contrasting emotional place.

Alter more notes and the audience starts to lose the connection. But you can still hold the score together with an altered theme in the counterpoint. For your enjoyment, and those few who listen again.


----------



## Jean Paul

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/13 - Live Composing Video Pt.3 is UP"*

Very insightful videos, thank you. Thats very kind of you to share. (the podcasts are invaluable as well). thanks a lot. JP


----------



## synergy543

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/14 - Live Composing Video Final Part is UP"*

Such candid, interesting, and useful thoughts to digest. Thanks for sharing Mike.

Very inspiring.

Wish it was a regular series!


----------



## Steve Martin

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/14 - Live Composing Video Final Part is UP"*

Hi Mike,

Thank you so much for these videos. I have watched the first one, and now I am really looking forward to watching the others this evening, and, after what I have seen so far, the first video has been really insightful and really interesting sharing with us of the composing process you follow.

I find it very easy to follow your explanations and examples you give.

I also believe that we are really lucky to have you on this forum, and with your attitude of sharing and helping, I am sure this has been a real benefit to a lot of members of this forum.

I am sure many other forum members feel very appreciative of your time and effort that you give in sharing your information and experiences with us.

Thanks again Mike for your work and your videos you have provided for us here.

best regards,

Steve :D


----------



## Dan Selby

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/14 - Live Composing Video Final Part is UP"*

Thanks for sharing these videos, Mike - really interesting!


----------



## Mahlon

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/14 - Live Composing Video Final Part is UP"*

Thank you for these, Mike. You have a real gift for teaching and critical thought and for imparting that succinctly.

Mahlon


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/14 - Live Composing Video Final Part is UP"*

Haven't had a chance to view these videos, time is scarce these days, but looking forward to it, I'm sure I'll learn a lot.


----------



## germancomponist

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/14 - Live Composing Video Final Part is UP"*

Mike,

you are a very great person and it is soooo good and cool to have you here on this forum!


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/14 - Live Composing Video Final Part is UP"*

Thanks, everyone, for the kind words and feedback. I'm truly humbled!

_Mike


----------



## dannthr

Thanks for posting your process, Mike, I love watching other people create--the creative process is always so unique to how someone's brain works, and it's always fascinating to observe that.

I wish more people did that.


----------



## mwarsell

Lovely stuff, Mike. Just watched part 1. Thank you so much.


----------



## rickholets

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/14 - Live Composing Video Final Part is UP"*

Hi Mike, I want to add my thanks for your latest videos! I'm learning a lot from your contributions around here.


----------



## ryanstrong

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/14 - Live Composing Video Final Part is UP"*

A+ thanks Mike for this. A true artist and teacher.


----------



## marcotronic

I, too, wanted to thank you very very much, Mike! I got so much from your videos. Thanks for your precious time you spent on doing these.

Marco


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/14 - Live Composing Video Final Part is UP"*

You're welcome, guys - so glad you're enjoying the screencasts. If you have any requests for particular topics in future editions, let me know. I like to do that sort of thing in breaks between gigs!

_Mike


----------



## Alex Temple

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/14 - Live Composing Video Final Part is UP"*

Mike, thanks for your detailed and insightful answers to our questions!


----------



## synthetic

Very well done set, thank you.


----------



## morphlite

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/14 - Live Composing Video Final Part is UP"*

Hi Mike,

Thanks for all the videos and podcast over the last few years it's very much appreciated and your work is a real pleasure to listen too.

You have stated many times about not quantizing and letting the tempo flow.
Looking at the recent videos it seems you don't follow a tempo/tempo map, how do you then go about translating this midi data to a physical score/notation software? 
(You may have answered this before so sorry if you have) 

Thanks in advance

All the best
Paul


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/14 - Live Composing Video Final Part is UP"*

A good chunk of stuff goes down on paper or directly into Sibelius as I go, but also, as you can see in the video, I maintain a pretty close link to the music itself during the process; that is to say that my choices are generally consciously considered (versus just getting lucky in a hunt-and-peck) so it's not that much of an issue to then get it into Sibelius after the fact. This is what I did with The Race, to a large degree. 

Having scorepad or notation software up and available at all times, and using it as you go, will always improve the quality of your writing because you can really see what you're doing, versus doing it blind and by memorization. How much stuff that you just learned/thought of can you really remember? Only a short bit; which means your developmental arcs are going to be short, and the really choice stuff takes more time to develop; more time than you can keep in your head at once, and with greater complexity than you can memorize. No matter how closely you may be connected to the music, none of us can remember minutes' worth of counterpoint we just improvised.

I don't advocate going to paper/notation as you write on principle. I advocate it because it can make a night/day difference in the quality of your work.


Hope that helps.


_Mike


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/14 - Live Composing Video Final Part is UP"*

New podcast: Surviving the Mix. Some tips and musings on giving your music the best chance to shine in the final mix.

This podcast references a video example, which can be found here.



_Mike


----------



## CouchCow

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/29 - New Podcast: Surviving the Mix**

Thanks for the very informative podcast Mike.


----------



## Vartio

Some great stuff there... Thanks for sharing!


----------



## David Story

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/29 - New Podcast: Surviving the Mix**

Fun and insightful. You could teach at AFI, and help a whole generation of filmmakers learn how to mix properly. Thanks!


----------



## shakuman

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/29 - New Podcast: Surviving the Mix**

Many thanks Mike for your fantastic work and more success in the future..

Shakuman.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/29 - New Podcast: Surviving the Mix**

So...

I've been working on a demo for the great Samplemodeling libraries - it's an orchestral brass ensemble piece plus timpani and one percussionist.

Obviously, I want to use the instruments on their own without layering, and it's been challenging. Horns are the easiest to work with, trumpets the hardest. In any case, I'm curious if you guys have any suggestions on handling these samples, either tricks in performance or mix. If you get a chance to take a listen and comment, I'd appreciate it!:

Adventure Theme One


Thanks,

_Mike


----------



## Daryl

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 11/29 - New Podcast: Surviving the Mix**



mverta @ Sun Apr 08 said:


> Obviously, I want to use the instruments on their own without layering, and it's been challenging. Horns are the easiest to work with, trumpets the hardest. In any case, I'm curious if you guys have any suggestions on handling these samples, either tricks in performance or mix. If you get a chance to take a listen and comment, I'd appreciate it!:
> 
> Adventure Theme One
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> _Mike


The Horns (and Tuba) are easy because they have the early reflections and pre-delay built in. Therefore you can treat them virtually the same as your VSL instruments.

The Trumpet and Trombone do not have these, so I always give them a bit of extra preparation. The Trombone is not such a problem, but the Trumpet can sound thin and edgy. So one way of dealing with this is:

Put a reverb insert 100% Wet on the VSTi Output.
Use a fairly long and dark reverb
Cut the tail short, to between .06 and .08 seconds
Juggle a bit with the Wet/Dry signal if you like.

You can now treat this pretty much the same as you would your VSL instruments. Personally I find that the Samplemodeling instruments will now work well with either SPAT or MIR Pro, but the usual EQ/reverb mixture will also work.

There are also a couple of tutorials by re-peat somewhere in this forum. Maybe some of this information could be turned into a sticky, because Samplemodeling is only going to become more popular, and we all face these issues. Mods?

D


----------



## dannthr

Hey,

The problem with SM Brass is that it sounds like it was hot-mic'd in an anechoic room. (It's dry and has a slight proximity effect)

The primary difficulty in using it is that each brass instrument needs to have its own set of Early Reflections to distinguish its sound and reflective properties on a larger stage such as a scoring stage or hall.

When you think about it, even your driest VSL libraries are not as dry as the SM stuff, their silent room still has some early reflections and these early reflections are the most important component for our brains to break down spatial information about the sound we're hearing.

Our brains are so damned good at this that we don't really consciously engage this part of how we think about sound, at least not regularly, we can discriminate complex spatial reflections and timings in an extremely sophisticated and entirely intuitive way.

But we need to apply these concepts consciously when mixing something like SM Brass.

Now, personally, I don't like Altiverb, but if you're using altiverb, then you have to think about adding an additional layer of early reflections to match existing brass recordings. Use live brass or good brass mixes as a reference for building your new layer.

EDIT:

I've only had time to experiment with solo instruments and one attempt at ensemble: http://www.dannthr.com/temp/starwars_la ... est_03.mp3


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/8 - Samplemodeling DEMO**

Thanks, guys. Yes, I'm familiar with this sort of issue, and even here have added ER independently to the trombones and trumpets, and there are a couple different sends to QL Space reverbs.

I think I was asking more about issues like the phasing heard in unisons, getting more bite in the attacks during staccatos, etc. !


----------



## dannthr

The phasing problem is a mixing problem related to creating a direct signal and early reflections for each instrument--they can't come in dry, the staccati are a tonguing issue.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/8 - Samplemodeling DEMO**

No it isn't. 

The phasing problem happens with the dry layers as well because the instruments themselves (Main trumpet, Trumpet 2, and Trumpet 3) have such similar properties. Giorgio recommends increasing the natural pitch variance CC to help mitigate this, and I have. It has helped somewhat. Three actual trumpets playing unison together interact acoustically differently than three independently recorded trumpets stacked.

_Mike


----------



## dannthr

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/8 - Samplemodeling DEMO**



mverta @ Sun Apr 08 said:


> No it isn't.



Ah, okay then. Sounds great, can't imagine how you'd make it any better.

Some day you'll have to show us all how you do it.

:D


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/8 - Samplemodeling DEMO**

 Nah, it's not that there aren't issues, it's just that it isn't because I don't know how to bus my sends 

I honestly think it really may come down to what I mentioned in my last post about stacking three independently recorded (or modeled) solo instruments versus having them recorded (or.. modeled?) together. In reality, they play off one another differently when they're actually together. That, at least, I think would address the phasing issues.

The tonguing/attack thing, I'm not so sure. At the very top of the velocity curve there is quite a bit of "bite," so it might just be a programming issue...

_Mike


----------



## dannthr

Phasing is natural for brass, when you have such pure fundamental tones with instruments right next to eachother, it's natural.

There are lots of things brass players do when playing together that's different than playing separately, yes.

Aside from the obvious humanistic inaccuracies, they will also adjust their natural pitch on the fly to match overtones when playing harmonized.

But you also have to appreciate that there is a physical issue.

When you have phasing in your stereo mic placement the problem has to do with physical placement of the mics themselves.

In the same way, you need to create a simulated physical environment that is disparate between the instruments. Summing any dry signal will result in potential phasing problems or worse, not sounding like two instruments at all.

You have to think of reverb differently. (There are few mixing engineers whom I would trust to approach this problem correctly, though all of them know how to "bus their sends")

Velocity controls the attack of a note, but brass players also tongue staccati differently than long notes.

The entire note needs to be sharp, beginning and end, and the middle needs to be very brief, shorter than you'd expect.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/8 - Samplemodeling DEMO**

Well, I'm not having any luck improving this thing substantially.

I will make the MIDI file available for anyone who wants to give it a shot! :

Adventure Theme One MIDI

_Mike


----------



## adg21

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/8 - Samplemodeling DEMO**

If the likes of Mike Verta are struggling to get it sounding right I think sampling modeling should really provide good tutorials on how it's done (or ask Sam to do them).


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/8 - Samplemodeling DEMO**

Actually, Sam was kind enough to run it through his Star Wars template for me, and it's barely better, which means there is truly a ton of programming stuff necessary to get it anywhere near what he was able to do with Star Wars. I'll see if I can get permission to post it.

_Mike


----------



## dannthr

Hey Mike,

Sorry I was all jerky before, I just don't like it when people so easily disregard my advice.

Like you and pretty much everyone else here, I do this for a living, but I also teach this--I don't post a lot, but I try to stay relevant and take care when I do give advice.

So, whether or not what is to follow will be something you will regard, I will post, at least so others might find it edifying.

This is, after all, a presumptious revision on my part and it's very likely you won't like any number of choices I have made--from the mix to the programming and everything in between.

I also did not import your tempo map, I just ran it at 161bpm.

[mp3]http://www.dannthr.com/temp/mverta_venture_uno.mp3[/mp3]

There were a number of things I changed here, whether or not it makes it "punchier" sounding or whatever it was that you wanted and wasn't getting, here goes:

The brass needed to be slightly more professional and slightly more confident.

As I mentioned earlier, the brass tonguing is vital for a sharp, punchy sound, both note on and note off.

Tut-tut, tut-tut-tut, tut-tut-tut, tut-tut-tut not da-da, da-da-da, da-da-da.

One of the easiest habits we fall into when translating this piece of advice from a live instrument to SM brass is that we forget that in SM brass, velocity does not mean dynamics. Velocity is attack.

What's so freaking incredible about SM brass, is that we can then approach our attack like an actual performer would, using Velocity as a function of note-length to give a pleasant variable arc that looks into the future as a normal performer would.

E.G. a player won't tongue a quarter note the same as an eighth note, this is something that SM brass was made for.

That leaves our dynamics (Expression) to control our actual dynamic level, what's great is that we can have a sharp note that is quiet and a sharp note that is loud and the dynamics and associated timbre will change appropriately, likewise, we can have slow attacks or sloppy notes, etc, and have that be totally independent of the dynamic for that note.

I also tweaked some of your existing dynamics, though not much, just to reflect a little more confidence in the players (I might've gotten over-board, it's hard, when I was in band playing clarinet (doodily-doot), the trumpet players all had a special handshake, the way it would go is, they would shake your hand while saying "I'm better than you." A funny joke about trumpet players, but in a sense, these folks have grown some cahunas because after all, they were loud even when they sucked.)

I tweaked almost all of your velocities.

I tweaked many of your staccato note lengths to make them shorter, and I tweaked the last staccato note length to make it longer, more of a marcato or accented note.

I added vibrato arcs and variable vibrato rates.

I would also say it's a bit wide and a tad on the wet side, but that's kind of how I like it right now, plus that always happens when you mix on headphones, which I did.

Oh yeah, also, I don't use Altiverb here.

EDIT: FX Chain: Magic Reverb Sauce => Reverb Spices => EQ => More Reverb => Compression => Limiter w/Gain and Dither.


----------



## Sam

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/8 - Samplemodeling DEMO**



mverta @ Sun Apr 15 said:


> Actually, Sam was kind enough to run it through his Star Wars template for me



you're welcome !

--

Dannthr, it's not bad - I really like your reverb, but the dry sound is too prominent.

Here is, for me, the most important rule with SM stuff : 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpjO44iTi2w

You will never hear the perfect dry sound in the real world (scoring stage, concert hall etc ) even with close mics, so it should not be in the final rendering

otherwise, it is not realistic, the sound is squeaky and we feel surrounded by an army of unleashed ducks. :lol: 

The dry sound begs only for being completely wrapped in an environnement, like in the real world. 

The best way for me is to use the main reverb as an *insert fx, not send fx*

here is an exemple with reverb insert 70% wet :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3__i_ytYAI

100 % wet :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6Ez5G0vZMI

100 % wet : the sharpness here doesn't come directly from the dry sound but from EQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAxja5OR5_I


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/8 - Samplemodeling DEMO**

Dan -

I actually really appreciate your taking the time, and I think your version is an improvement in several respects, programming-wise. I'm definitely still of the opinion that it's not selling realistically yet, but for sure, better. Not crazy about the verb/mix, but whatever. I believe a good mock-up can work without being so wet, that's all. I would love to see your data changes!

_Mike


----------



## dannthr

Hey Mike,

Well, to be quite honest with you, I don't think I'd be here if I didn't think so highly of your regular contribution to this community. You're a really valuable member of this forum and you're always sharing your insight and workflow and I truly appreciate your engagement.

I will definitely psot a more detailed impression of my programming changes.

Sam,

To be honest, I am never happy with my mixes--and if I ever happen to be happy with my mix, it doesn't last long.

With that said, here is me overreacting to your post:

[mp3]http://www.dannthr.com/temp/mverta_venture_dos.mp3[/mp3]


----------



## Christian Marcussen

Listening on a laptop... But Dan... The above most recent version sounds best to me so far. 

Great composing Mike.


----------



## Sam

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/8 - Samplemodeling DEMO**

Here is a short extract :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jqnAbiw40g


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/8 - Samplemodeling DEMO**

That is definitely going somewhere good, Sam!

_Mike


----------



## Erik

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/8 - Samplemodeling DEMO**

Hi,

Herewith a version of this wonderful piece (Adventure Theme One).

Exclusively with *Hollywood Brass* (made specially for you Mike!). 
[mp3]http://www.musesamples.com/blog2/MP3/AdventureThemeOneHB.mp3[/mp3]
Only main mics used.

Superfluous to say that Dann did an excellent job on this piece already, thanks for sharing Dann!

I am working on a VSL Dimension Brass version, but it is not ready yet. I'll let you all know asap.

Percussion is from Elite Orchestral Percussion in both versions.


----------



## Ed

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/8 - Samplemodeling DEMO**



Erik @ Mon Apr 16 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Herewith two versions of this wonderful piece (Adventure Theme One).
> 
> First version exclusively with *Hollywood Brass* (made specially for you Mike!).
> [mp3]http://www.musesamples.com/blog2/MP3/AdventureThemeOneHB.mp3[/mp3]
> Only main mics used.



Whoa, performance sounds nice, but why does it sound so mono? Did you use mostly close mics here?


----------



## Ed

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/8 - Samplemodeling DEMO**



Sam @ Mon Apr 16 said:


> Here is a short extract :
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jqnAbiw40g



This is the best so far IMO and the mix is really sitting well.


----------



## adg21

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/8 - Samplemodeling DEMO**



Sam @ Mon Apr 16 said:


> Here is a short extract :
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jqnAbiw40g



very cool, would you have any other tips?


----------



## dannthr

Hey guys,

I made this video yesterday, but it took forever to render it out and upload it:

I wanted to make a video 'cause of all of Mike's great videos.

I hope it offers some impression of my approach to programming SM instruments, I'm sorry my voice is so low, it needs some compression and gain, but it took me so long to render the video that I just... don't want to do it again.

The video is unlisted, I'm only posting it here on VI-Control.

Also, I worked straight for 37 hours on Thursday/Friday, so this weekend my brain was all mushy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAc3L8bPH6Q


----------



## Christian Marcussen

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/8 - Samplemodeling DEMO**

Wonderful Dan. Really nice. I also like how you manage to give the staccatos some bit in their attack. Nice vid.


----------



## Erik

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/8 - Samplemodeling DEMO**



Ed @ Mon 16 Apr said:


> Erik @ Mon Apr 16 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Herewith two versions of this wonderful piece (Adventure Theme One).
> 
> First version exclusively with *Hollywood Brass* (made specially for you Mike!).
> [mp3]http://www.musesamples.com/blog2/MP3/AdventureThemeOneHB.mp3[/mp3]
> Only main mics used.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Whoa, performance sounds nice, but why does it sound so mono? Did you use mostly close mics here?
Click to expand...


Thank you Ed. In this version hereabove I only used the main mics.

In this version I widened the stereo image a bit, but of more importance is here that I used time Main, Tree and Close mics.
[mp3]http://www.musesamples.com/blog2/MP3/AdventureThemeOneHB3mics.mp3[/mp3]

In the meantime I managed to get also the VSL Dimension Brass version ready.
[mp3]http://www.musesamples.com/blog2/MP3/AdventureThemeOneVSLDB.mp3[/mp3].

@ Dann: thanks for your instructive video. I must say that I am very very convinced gradually of the sonic possibilities of the SM products. It sounds so great (in your hands anyway)!


----------



## Simplesly

dannthr @ Sun Apr 15 said:


> E.G. a player won't tongue a quarter note the same as an eighth note, this is something that SM brass was made for.



I have to make a slight correction here, Dan - especially because I think it goes to the core of why this mockup is still not sounding right to me. Choice of tonguing is not necessarily just a function of note length, but also the style of writing, note connected-ness, dynamics, tempo etc. 16ths might be double tongued in a fast passage, or single tongued just like a quarter or eiighth in a slower one.

*disclaimer: I don't own any SM brass, so I'm not aware of limitations inherent to the library. This is more of a comment on brass performance in general. I am a trombone player, BTW...

As i said earlier, brass players choose the manner in which they articulate notes with a variety of criteria, which are very much dictated by the writing and also the instrument involved. Take the opening horn line, for example; I would imagine a slur (legato marking) written over the sixteenth notes because that's how the horns are playing it - and this is played by a horn player as a _valve slur_ because it's idiomatic to the instrument. 

Later on though, I hear the trombones repeat this theme, and it's performed almost exactly the same. Given an F trigger, it's possible to do this, but more than likely, if the writing indicates, a bone player is going to use a "du-gu-du" double- tonguing to achieve that arcticulation, rather than a valve slur. Problem here is that it's sounding like a horn with the timbre of a trombone. If no legato marking was indicated, the bones would probably use a "tu-ku-tu" double-tonguing. Trumpets would do the the same. 

So SM is using velocity to determine attack, they're only getting it partially right. 

I also feel that there is a lack of natural breathing in this performance - sure, with enough players a totally connected performance is possible, but real players still need to breath and the listener will be aware of it on some level. Here, the playing seems too robotic, i.e. superhuman..

On many levels, the programming is working though, dynamics are sounding good. 

Would be interested to have other brass players chime in...


----------



## dannthr

Christian and Erik, thank you. 

Samplesly



Simplesly @ Tue Apr 17 said:


> Choice of tonguing is not necessarily just a function of note length, but also the style of writing, note connected-ness, dynamics, tempo etc. 16ths might be double tongued in a fast passage, or single tongued just like a quarter or eiighth in a slower one.



Agreed. A lot of my focus in Mike's work was making it "punchier." So I applied a broad stroke in my programming philosophy.

Note Velocity in SM is note start attack or note start speed. It also applies to transitions. What I wanted to drive home in the video is that note velocity is NOT about dynamics, that dynamics are handled by a separate parameter.



> As i said earlier, brass players choose the manner in which they articulate notes with a variety of criteria, which are very much dictated by the writing and also the instrument involved. Take the opening horn line, for example; I would imagine a slur (legato marking) written over the sixteenth notes because that's how the horns are playing it - and this is played by a horn player as a _valve slur_ because it's idiomatic to the instrument.
> 
> Later on though, I hear the trombones repeat this theme, and it's performed almost exactly the same. Given an F trigger, it's possible to do this, but more than likely, if the writing indicates, a bone player is going to use a "du-gu-du" double- tonguing to achieve that arcticulation, rather than a valve slur. Problem here is that it's sounding like a horn with the timbre of a trombone. If no legato marking was indicated, the bones would probably use a "tu-ku-tu" double-tonguing. Trumpets would do the the same.



I think what's really important with understanding how to use SM brass is really about idiomatic writing, and player performance sympathy/empathy.

As I mentioned in the video, in traditional samples, the performance is from a human player, usually a very good human player, but in SM Brass, YOU have to be the player.

Personally, I am only drawing from my experience as a CLARINET player. I have a great deal of confidence that if you would be able to program these kinds of instruments much more realistically because you would be not only drawing on your experience as a brass player, but also as a trombone player.

That, I think, is the power and the challenge in SM Brass.




> I also feel that there is a lack of natural breathing in this performance - sure, with enough players a totally connected performance is possible, but real players still need to breath and the listener will be aware of it on some level. Here, the playing seems too robotic, i.e. superhuman..



Agreed, and there were only two or three times where I was really compelled to adjust the length of a phrase to make it a little easier on the player--but there are lots of opportunities for breaths.

I wanted to avoid changing note lengths and adjusting expression as much as possible. I usually only tweaked an expression curve here or there, or shortened note lengths on staccati patterns.

A great deal of care needs to be put into the performance.



> On many levels, the programming is working though, dynamics are sounding good.
> 
> Would be interested to have other brass players chime in...



This would be Mike's deal, I only adjusted the expression/dynamics on probably a dozen or fewer moments.


----------



## Simplesly

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/8 - Samplemodeling DEMO**

I see what SM is going after here, giving the user a high degree of control over their performance, and that's all well and good, but.... Given the amount of time it's taken to bring Mike's original performance to it's current level of realism, and the amount of additional programming that it would probably take to get it to sound truly convincing, I would argue that we're not getting much benefit for this type of use.

For solos within an ensemble context or blending with other libraries, it's probably great, especially with that vibrato control. But to a brass player like myself, it's just not standing on it's own. Some of it is maybe due to programming, but there are little nagging things in there, like for example, the exaggeratedly blatty sound that the instruments seem to make at the high end of the note-on velocity, or the way the legato notes tend to run together just a little too mechanically, that make me think that there's a ways to go before this stuff can be used in a pure solo context. 

Dan, I wasn't singling your version out specifically - you had made some generalizations about brass performance that were simply incorrect. 

I guess my point is that with samples, maybe you're getting the same performance every time (or a RR variation) but at least it's a REAL performance that doesn't have to be tweaked endlessly to get the basic result you're after. 

My suggestion in this mock would be to look specifically at the fast legato phrases in the trumpets and bones and possibly de-emphasize it a bit. But of course if Mike intended those phrases to be played that way that would be bad... I just think that in this case it's not playing to the strengths of this library.


----------



## EastWest Lurker

For me at the end of the day, samples or modeling, only 2 things matter:

1. Can I make it sound good to the ears of my clients and listeners.

2. Can I do so in a reasonable amount of time.

No disrespect to any of the fine player/composers here and their efforts because you guys all know I revere great players and use them whenever possible, but whether it sounds as close as possible to the real instrument to a guy who actually plays the instrument is so far down on my personal priority list as to be invisible.

None of this is "real" and at a certain degree of effort, the pursuit becomes counter-productive. This is not a knock on SM because I have heard some great things done with their stuff.


----------



## David Story

dannthr @ Mon Apr 16 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I made this video yesterday, but it took forever to render it out and upload it:
> 
> I wanted to make a video 'cause of all of Mike's great videos.
> 
> I hope it offers some impression of my approach to programming SM instruments, I'm sorry my voice is so low, it needs some compression and gain, but it took me so long to render the video that I just... don't want to do it again.
> 
> The video is unlisted, I'm only posting it here on VI-Control.
> 
> Also, I worked straight for 37 hours on Thursday/Friday, so this weekend my brain was all mushy:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAc3L8bPH6Q



Thank you Dan, exeptional work. Fun to listen to repeatedly, since it's a real good performance, and good writing. Your voice is fine.

The mockup is wonderful, Dan is remarkably clear and musical in the performance and mix. I like HB a lot, SM is simply better, thanks to the performance parameters that he demos in the video. The transitions are more fluid and human. In all the instruments.

I don't like the non-harmonic transients at the start of high velocity notes. SM could fix that to match the spectrum of live staccatos.

There's also something vital to dividing the labor of composing and performing. Mike wrote this, Dan performed it (and mixed). A better result than either by themselves, imo. 

Some of Mike's initial performance is in there too, yet it could sound just as good if he had simply posted midi notes, and all the performance programing was done by someone else. 

A side note, most of the considerations in Dan's video would apply for writing, rehearsing and recording with live brass.

(+1 to Jay, it does seem like a *lot* of time programing to get a "real" sound, though I like it a lot)


----------



## Daryl

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/8 - Samplemodeling DEMO**



Simplesly @ Tue Apr 17 said:


> I see what SM is going after here, giving the user a high degree of control over their performance, and that's all well and good, but.... Given the amount of time it's taken to bring Mike's original performance to it's current level of realism, and the amount of additional programming that it would probably take to get it to sound truly convincing, I would argue that we're not getting much benefit for this type of use.
> 
> For solos within an ensemble context or blending with other libraries, it's probably great, especially with that vibrato control. But to a brass player like myself, it's just not standing on it's own. Some of it is maybe due to programming, but there are little nagging things in there, like for example, the exaggeratedly blatty sound that the instruments seem to make at the high end of the note-on velocity, or the way the legato notes tend to run together just a little too mechanically, that make me think that there's a ways to go before this stuff can be used in a pure solo context.
> 
> Dan, I wasn't singling your version out specifically - you had made some generalizations about brass performance that were simply incorrect.
> 
> I guess my point is that with samples, maybe you're getting the same performance every time (or a RR variation) but at least it's a REAL performance that doesn't have to be tweaked endlessly to get the basic result you're after.
> 
> My suggestion in this mock would be to look specifically at the fast legato phrases in the trumpets and bones and possibly de-emphasize it a bit. But of course if Mike intended those phrases to be played that way that would be bad... I just think that in this case it's not playing to the strengths of this library.


I agree with most of what you say here, except that I don't agree with your theory that traditional sample libraries are much better. This sort of music is what a traditional sample library excels at, but I doubt any of them could do better than either Mike/Dan's or Mike/Sam's performance. However, this sort of playing is actually what SM is weakest at, so when one considers the rest of what Brass instruments are supposed to do, then SM comes out way ahead in my view. For me it is not about the individual articulations, but the actual musical performance. This is the area where traditional libraries struggle.

Obviously I accept that to a Brass player it sounds nothing like the real thing. This is exactly how I feel about String libraries, but where we differ is that I've come to terms with the fact that I'm not playing a String section; I'm playing a sample library that sounds a bit like a String library. Don't think that I don't have sympathy or your position though. I can't bear any Solo String libraries at all. :wink: 

D


----------



## synergy543

All of these valiant efforts really show the importance of adding expression to any sampled or modeled or real performance. I wonder how much of a difference it would have made if Mike also provided a score with dynamic and articulation markings? Working with only MIDI is somewhat of a handicap.

SAM made an important point earlier that may have been overlooked. The idea of mixing dry/wet is really a dead concept with modeled or very dry samples. It works well with real instruments when they are recorded in a ambient space. Rather than mixing dry/wet, what really is needed is to mix close mic/ambient mics. And to emulate this with samples requires a slightly different approach than is standard. One problem is that when using Altiverb to create a 100% close-mic sound, its often a bit too ambient. Does a really good close-mic room simulation exist? Maybe SAM might have some thoughts to share on this? Nevertheless, SAM's point really targets the problem and shouldn't be overlooked. Its not just "tech-fu". The direct-only that reaches the ear is not direct only. Its filtered by the air which is not inconsequential. Moving those close-mics back a few feet or moving to more distant tree mics really makes a difference. Whether with modeled, sampled or real instruments, the physics of the problem is the same. Its worth re-thinking about this problem as SAM suggests.


----------



## dannthr

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/8 - Samplemodeling DEMO**



Simplesly @ Tue Apr 17 said:


> but there are little nagging things in there, like for example, the exaggeratedly blatty sound that the instruments seem to make at the high end of the note-on velocity, or the way the legato notes tend to run together just a little too mechanically,



Both of those are controllable parameters, by the way--just wanted to chime in real quick here, I'm actually at school between class periods.


----------



## Gusfmm

There is a bit of an assumption built into your comment though, that there is need for a mic'ed sound. The nature of the mock-up will actually determine that. When you go to the concert hall, there is only instruments, people, and a reverberant hall. No close-mics/ambient-mics.


----------



## Simplesly

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Apr 17 said:


> For me at the end of the day, samples or modeling, only 2 things matter:
> 
> 1. Can I make it sound good to the ears of my clients and listeners.
> 
> 2. Can I do so in a reasonable amount of time.
> 
> No disrespect to any of the fine player/composers here and their efforts because you guys all know I revere great players and use them whenever possible, but whether it sounds as close as possible to the real instrument to a guy who actually plays the instrument is so far down on my personal priority list as to be invisible.



Jay, concerning #2 - That is exactly my point. 

Yeah sure at the of the day it's not like we're trying to convince a room full of brass players that they're listening to a recording of a live ensemble here, we're just trying to produce a pleasing mock-up for the average listener. It's a musical performance, thanks to Mike's playing chops and the additional programming input of Dan and the others. But it took quite a lot of effort to get there for a relatively short piece. 

Daryl, you might be right about regular samples not being able to get to this level and i'm sure you're right that no other library achieves this level of control over performance. I'd like to see someone try it with VSL brass and VI Pro/MIR just for sh*ts. 

I get the "real vs real good" thing loud and clear - But one thing I don't think anyone will argue is that sample libraries have tended to improve over the years in primarily one area: realism. Today's sample libs are far superior to what we had even five years ago. With mockups, cues etc. needing sound as good as possible, we have to use the tools available to us to create the best sounding finished product, and we can often overlook a lack of realism in individual sections (as I do myself all the time because I don't own one 1/10th of what some of you do) because they blend nicely and you end up with a decent product. This SM exercise is just demonstrating the point that many of these libs don't stand on their own. Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought that's what Mike was attempting prove incorrect. 

For the record, I think the little demos that Mike does in his "template tour" with the VSL stuff is way more convincing than the SM example. I know it's samples, but I can at least roll with it. No one needs to debate me on this, it's purely my opinion. But those are ensemble patches so maybe it's a moot point...


----------



## synergy543

Gusfmm @ Tue Apr 17 said:


> There is a bit of an assumption built into your comment though, that there is need for a mic'ed sound. The nature of the mock-up will actually determine that. When you go to the concert hall, there is only instruments, people, and a reverberant hall. No close-mics/ambient-mics.


Not really. In a concert hall there is already built-in depth due to the distance. You never listen to music with your ear inside the bell of a trumpet whether at a concert or from a studio recording. The whole purpose of using close and ambient mikes is to create a "simulation" of depth. A result of this process along with combining digital reverbs has resulted in the creation of a sound different from the concert hall. So studio recordings and film music do tend to have a different end sound than the concert hall.


----------



## Gusfmm

synergy543 @ Tue Apr 17 said:


> what really is needed is to mix close mic/ambient mics. And to emulate this with samples requires a slightly different approach than is standard. One problem is that when using Altiverb to create a 100% close-mic sound....



My point was that you suggested a method to "simulate" a given sound by a mix of close/ambient mics, to which I don't necessarily agree. Part of it maybe why often times demos made with SM sounds so in-your-face fake to me. And maybe this is why I much prefer Sam's mix thus far, much more subtle, although part of it has to do with the programming. Would be curious to hear some of these trials using 0% dry in a MIR hall.



synergy543 @ Tue Apr 17 said:


> Not really. In a concert hall there is already built-in depth due to the distance. You never listen to music with your ear inside the bell of a trumpet whether at a concert or from a studio recording. The whole purpose of using close and ambient mikes is to create a "simulation" of depth. A result of this process along with combining digital reverbs has resulted in the creation of a sound different from the concert hall. So studio recordings and film music do tend to have a different end sound than the concert hall.



Right, so I think you agree that the nature of the mock-up would call for a different reverb criteria. In my particular case, I'm much more interested in a concert/recording hall sound.


----------



## synergy543

Gusfmm @ Tue Apr 17 said:


> My point was that you suggested a method to "simulate" a given sound by a mix of close/ambient mics, to which I don't necessarily agree. Part of it maybe why often times demos made with SM sounds so in-your-face fake to me. And maybe this is why I much prefer Sam's mix thus far, much more subtle. Would be curious to hear some of these trials using 0% dry in a MIR hall.


I think we're after the same thing here. I was pointing out that SAM suggested having no dry sound. This would be true for real instruments whether you close-miked them (along with plenty of ERs) or listened in a concert hall. Conventional reverbs offer you a mix between dry/wet. This is what I'm pointing out doesn't work so well as the dry has no ERs which you really need regardless of samples or real instruments or studio or concert hall. As SAM says, there is no DRY ever really.




Gusfmm @ Tue Apr 17 said:


> I think you agree that the nature of the mock-up would call for a different reverb criteria. In my particular case, I'm much more interested in a concert hall sound.


I agree there are different goals for studio or concert hall. However, the important point SAM made (that I was commenting on) is that regardless of the nature of your mockup ambience, you'll never really have a DRY sound (you don't want sound in-your-face in either case). So our reverb models don't work as well with modeled instruments or dry samples as they do with samples recorded with ERs or real instruments. Thus, in a real orchestral recording, mixing dry/wet is not a problem. With dry samples it is. The difference is just physics, and its worth considering why mixing dry/wet with modeled instrument or close miked samples sucks so badly.


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## Gusfmm

Now I got a bit confused...



synergy543 @ Tue Apr 17 said:


> This is what I'm pointing out doesn't work so well as the dry has no ERs which you really need regardless of samples or real instruments or studio or concert hall. As SAM says, there is no DRY ever really.



Dry libraries such as VSL have been in use for quite some time. I personally think not having ER on the individual instruments is a good thing. I do prefer that approach of recording samples fully dry. 



synergy543 @ Tue Apr 17 said:


> Thus, in a real orchestral recording, mixing dry/wet is not a problem.



There is no dry or close signal in a real orchestra recording. And that was my original point.

p.s. Just to close from my end, I do understand and agree with Sam's approach of trying to get rid of the dry at all cost.


----------



## dannthr

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/8 - Samplemodeling DEMO**

The instruments in my video are 100% wet through a room simulation algorithm which allows me to control pan, depth, stereo width, independent controls over dry signal, direct signal, early reflections, and diffuse late reflections as well as size of room, reflection timing, and reflection frequency response.

But I have gone for a sound, in that video, that does not emphasize reflections, but rather the direct signal, which is not the same as dry (I called it semi-dry, or sort-of-dry, but it's not dry at all).


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/8 - Samplemodeling DEMO**

Wow, some meat in this thread, suddenly! I wonder why my thread notifications haven't been working.

Let me thank Dan for the great video, and Erik for his valiant efforts, right off. I think Dan's done some wonderful things.

To quickly sum up my reactions to the myriad of points brought up:

1) Yeah, it sure does seem like a lot of programming would be necessary to get this where it should go. The results might be superior, ultimately, to what I can do in 1/10th the time with my usual template, but worth it to the client/in-the-end? Hmmm.

2) I actually am going to put this score out to live players and record it, just so we can see what's what in a side-by-side.

3) I feel like re-thinking reverb every day, but what I've learned from listening to my Shawn stems is that no mic - not the directs, not the trees, nothing - doesn't have tons of bleed from every other section in them all the time, coloring the sound and messing with the staging. In my own template, I usually set up 3-4 reverb "mic positions" and do the same exact bleeding as Aux sends from every section. 

4) I agree that the final product as a result of synergistic collaboration between a dedicated programmer and composer is superior than to what I'd do alone, if for no other reason than all this programming gives me a headache. But my first run does give anybody down the chain a good idea of what I was intending, articulations-wise. Perhaps more so than mere articulations on paper, which are designed to be interpreted by live players. 

Thanks again, everyone. Just fascinating and informative stuff!

_Mike


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## dannthr

Hey Mike,

If you throw it to live players, I'd love to take a listen to the brass stems and try to get the programming closer.

The one thing I would like to say, which I consider really an important consideration, though I am totally a frequent hypocrite in this regard, is this:

To begin with an analogy, a brilliant artist, even the most professional artists in the world, when rendering the human form (or any form for that matter) employ the usage of model or photographic reference to assist in rendering realistic volume, lighting, and coloring. These are vital resources for any visual artist attempting to render a realistic image.

Here's a nice example of Alex Ross--a master comic book artist doing realistic commercial artwork:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlC9Q8Vr90M

There is absolutely no reason why we aren't doing that sort of thing.

Our technology is getting to the point where we have the flexibility of a painter on a blank canvas and with technical skill, hard work, and strong foundational references and resources, I think we can create very convincing, realistic performances.

I appreciate the concern people have for the cost/time ratio, but I don't think we should worry about that.

I think the reason is in part that I believe and I think others here suspect, once we have a more complete mastery of these tools and of the volume, form, anatomy, color, and lighting involved in recreating a realistic, musical, instrumental performance--we will be able to do so with commercial efficiency and with impressive results.

Maybe I'm crazy in thinking that, and part of me feels that maybe it's not the tool for the guy crunching to get the gig done--maybe it's the tool of the master painter who takes his/her time in creating a rendered aural work that astounds--maybe that's okay.


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## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/8 - Samplemodeling DEMO**

Actually, Dan, you're not crazy. As I've said many times in making a parallel between the world of virtual instruments and the world of computer generated imagery, which predates it: in CGI, we still, to this day, with insanely advanced and automated toolsets, spend 99% of our time and energy trying to replicate a billion subtle things which makes nature natural, and which we get for free in a nanosecond when we actually put reality in front a camera and shoot the damn thing. 

With our tools, and great references, we can get really damn close, and in some cases, get things you simply can't get for real. But there's a reason people like Chris Nolan are loathe to use CGI except when he has to. His Batman movies look more real when it's really happening. It makes them more dramatically compelling, and more successful creatively and financially.

_Mike


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## dannthr

I absolutely agree with that.


----------



## Daryl

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/8 - Samplemodeling DEMO**



mverta @ Wed Apr 18 said:


> 1) Yeah, it sure does seem like a lot of programming would be necessary to get this where it should go. The results might be superior, ultimately, to what I can do in 1/10th the time with my usual template, but worth it to the client/in-the-end? Hmmm.


I think that much of your problem is that you're a rookie when it comes to SM. If you think of the instrument more as an instrument, and practice it as such you will become much quicker. As to whether or not it is worth the time, only you can say. For me it is way quicker than using a sample library, as I just play it in, with minimal editing after the fact.



mverta @ Wed Apr 18 said:


> 4) I agree that the final product as a result of synergistic collaboration between a dedicated programmer and composer is superior than to what I'd do alone, if for no other reason than all this programming gives me a headache. But my first run does give anybody down the chain a good idea of what I was intending, articulations-wise. Perhaps more so than mere articulations on paper, which are designed to be interpreted by live players.


Actually I think a score would have been easier in some respects. I hear discrepancies between whether semi-quavers should have been slurred or separate, and this would have been clearer with a score. Also if live players can interpret a score, with the right mindset you can do the same.

D


----------



## Sam

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/8 - Samplemodeling DEMO**



adg21 @ Mon Apr 16 said:


> Sam @ Mon Apr 16 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a short extract :
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jqnAbiw40g
> 
> 
> 
> 
> very cool, would you have any other tips?
Click to expand...


Thanks ! 

Yes, I am officialy mandated by Sample Modeling to create tutorials - I will do it on my spare time, step by step (once a get my microphone back)

I suggest you to follow this topic (and I will certainly create a new one)

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... sc&start=0




synergy543 @ Tue Apr 17 said:


> One problem is that when using Altiverb to create a 100% close-mic sound, its often a bit too ambient. Does a really good close-mic room simulation exist? Maybe SAM might have some thoughts to share on this?



I am on it - my first attempts :

Raiders march : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-Kqwf-Ktgo

Adventure theme : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVxJ67D5vww

I look forward to hearing the recording of Adventure theme



synergy543 @ Tue Apr 17 said:


> Nevertheless, SAM's point really targets the problem and shouldn't be overlooked.



I am glad that you take it seriously :wink: 
I worked a long time by keeping a portion of the dry sound but I was never be satisfied. Things began to take shape once I realized that it was not "natural" (even if this is how sound a perfectly dry trumpet)

You can keep VSL dry sound, because it's not perfectly dry.(I have for example Epic Horns in mind)



Daryl @ Wed Apr 18 said:


> If you think of the instrument more as an instrument, and practice it as such you will become much quicker.



+1


----------



## Scrianinoff

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/8 - Samplemodeling DEMO**

[delete]


----------



## Scrianinoff

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/8 - Samplemodeling DEMO**



mverta @ Wed 18 Apr said:


> 1) Yeah, it sure does seem like a lot of programming would be necessary to get this where it should go. The results might be superior, ultimately, to what I can do in 1/10th the time with my usual template



That might be the situation right now for you, with tons of experience in using VSL, and just starting with SM. I am not so sure sketching using a VSL template takes 1/10th the time of sketching in a SM template with equal experience in both. For example look at a VSL tuba sketch of Guy Bacos playing in Cubase: http://www.vsl.co.at/videoplayer_flv.asp?ID=214 Look at the high number of different articulations that come flashing by, that are carefully chosen for every note. Now compare that to the little, albeit masterful, but still _little_ effort Sam puts into this SM tuba rendering: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTNvwCCScdo

The close anechoic dry sound of SM Brass has no stage or room reflections, whereas VSL's Silent Stage has only earl_iest_ reflections, it's an incredibly dry close miced sound, and thus quite different from SM, as anybody reading this is able to hear. VSL's MIR Pro can do a convincing job in simulating a stage, room or hall sound, with believable staging and depth around a VSL instrument. When you try this with a SM instrument I am missing the earl_iest_ reflections. It sounds like a gap between the direct anechoic dry sound and the early reflections from the hall. 

In Sam's thread this point was raised:


Scrianinoff @ Sat 14 Apr said:


> Sam @ Sat 14 Apr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Scrianinoff @ Sat Apr 14 said:
> 
> 
> 
> if only you could render a convincingly close staging of the SM trumpets
> 
> 
> 
> you're right, this is a missing point - very obvious for example in the first trumpets chord in my demo of Star Wars main title.
> The trumpets are clearly behind the orchestra while in the CD version they are in front.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, and increasing the level of the dry (anechoic) sound is NOT the solution to bring them in front. It never was. It didn't work 50 years ago, it doesn't work now, it will NEVER work. However, what did work 50 years ago, was multi micing with mics let's say 3 - 10 meters from the source, depending on the stage reflections, think of the famous Decca tree, this multi micing setup continues to work today, and it will continue to work for I guess quite some time in this relatively short time between two eternities. If only we could virtually convert a close micing into a tree micing. Just show us you can! We double dare you
Click to expand...


Dan's room simulation plugin (which one, is it a secret?) does at least do a good job in EQing the instruments, but I hear no stage depth yet, perhaps this is also not the purpose of the plug-in, I don't know. 

Back to MIR Pro, it simulates a single microphone position setup, and it does it really well, especially the staging, the tail sounds very 'real' but can be a little cold, due to the fact that convolution is time invariant and reality is not, but that can be easily patched with a little modulating verb underneath, like VSL's own "miracle".

To have a more detailed, in your face, and clearer sound, you'll need multiple mic positions. This _can_ be done using VE Pro and MIR Pro, you just have to start multiple VE Pro hosts and route the audio appropriately. If you try to stage VSL (or SM) with one mic position to achieve the soundtrack or cd recording sound, the tail will be too loud compared to the early reflections, and will result in a boxy and muddying sound. On top of that you'll still not be able to fill the earliest reflections gap when using SM Brass. I'll stop ranting now, sorry, it's also my longest post ever. It's probably better to continue this discussion in Sam's thread ( http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... sc&start=0 )

Nevertheless, I still want to say that again this is a wonderful composition of Mike, and that the virtual performers Sam and Dan already breathed much more life into it, with or without a breath controller.


----------



## Gusfmm

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/8 - Samplemodeling DEMO**



Scrianinoff @ Wed Apr 18 said:


> VSL's MIR Pro can do a convincing job in simulating a stage, room or hall sound, with believable staging and depth around a VSL instrument. When you try this with a SM instrument I am missing the earl_iest_ reflections. It sounds like a gap between the direct anechoic dry sound and the early reflections from the hall.



This SM conversation has been extremely interesting and very thought provoking, and I find myself challenging some of my preconceptions as well. A couple of thoughts-

a) When you go to a concert hall and sit at the balcony, do you miss the earliest reflections as well?

b) From the above, are you saying MIR algorhythm(s) do not include early reflection effects but only tails?


----------



## Scrianinoff

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/8 - Samplemodeling DEMO**



Gusfmm @ Wed 18 Apr said:


> Scrianinoff @ Wed Apr 18 said:
> 
> 
> 
> VSL's MIR Pro can do a convincing job in simulating a stage, room or hall sound, with believable staging and depth around a VSL instrument. When you try this with a SM instrument I am missing the earl_iest_ reflections. It sounds like a gap between the direct anechoic dry sound and the early reflections from the hall.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This SM conversation has been extremely interesting and very thought provoking, and I find myself challenging some of my preconceptions as well. A couple of thoughts-
> 
> a) When you go to a concert hall and sit in the balcony, do you miss the earliest reflections as well?
> 
> b) From the above, are you saying MIR algorhythm(s) do not include early reflection effects but only tails?
Click to expand...


To give a direct answer to a): In a real situation you don't miss anything, because everything is there . Being that far from the instrument, the earl_iest_ reflections are for the largest part drowned in the relatively loud tail and earl*y* reflections of an instrument and other instruments in the orchestra.

Further on a): In the hundreds of times I have been to concert halls, I simply enjoy the sound in all its real glory. When sitting in the balcony, the biggest instrument you hear is the hall, and in my case it's mostly the Amsterdam Concertgebouw. I regard it as a privilege to be able to visit this hall so frequently. It's this hall's natural reverb that the 'Amsterdam' reverb presets are modeled after. Back on topic, when you're in the hall you're basically hearing a one mic position setup. The sound of MIR Pro when using VSL instruments comes really close to the live hall sound. Mostly MIR offers 4 mic positions per hall, such as, indeed, the 'balcony' of the Grosser Saal in the Vienna Konzerthaus, another superb concert hall, the other 3 positions are: 14th row, 7th row and conductor's position. In a multi-mic recording, several of those would be carefully mixed, while sometimes adding close mic positions, I have seen them hanging hundreds of times.

b) MIR does not produce earl_*iest*_ reflections, at least to my ears, since they're already in the VSL samples that were recorded on the Silent Stage, which produces said reflections. Maybe Dietz could enlighten us, what's really going on under the hood. It does however produce superb early reflections that fool us into thinking we're listening to a real stage and hall (or room, or church). The tails share the common disadvantages of convolution reverbs, those can be easily fixed nowadays. Although algorithmic reverbs sound really lush, warm and pleasing, mostly the lack of realism irritates me, so I mostly opt for layering convo and algo.[/i]a


----------



## dannthr

There are as many Early Reflections as there are sides in the room where you're listening. One for each surface.

The timing of those reflections are based on the speed of sound and the total distance the sound has to travel from the source to the surface and then to your ear.

In a basic room, there are 6 early reflections.

The farther you are from a source, the closer together 5 of those reflections become.

The closer you are to the back wall, the closer all of thos reflections become.

The direct sound will always arrive first (so long as there is no barrier between you and the source) as all other reflected paths have to travel a farther distance.


----------



## Scrianinoff

dannthr @ Wed 18 Apr said:


> In a basic room, there are 6 early reflections.


That's a nice, simple, down to earth way of describing it. You're like Einstein , who was in favor of describing things as simple as possible, but not any simpler.

Remember that the first acoustical room simulation algorithms were fashioned after exactly these basic rules, and remember how they sound.

Just be aware that most surfaces are not perfect acoustical mirrors, some reflect more diffusely than others, that's especially true for higher frequencies. Otherwise you could simply set up a delay line to produce those 6 ERs which would give you perfect staging, but it doesn't. Another thing is that a mic setup close to the stage will pick up several reflections from all the things on stage, such as people, desks and double basses. Further, early reflections are not limited to _single_ reflections. Double, triple or even further reflections also belong to the early reflections depending on the size and shape of the stage and the hall. The early reflections loose their sonic significance by the time the tail washes over them, or in other words, by the time the reflections become so numerous and dense that the ears and brain can no longer distinguish them as separate reflections and fail to process them as localisation cues, but switch to an appreciation of a washed out version of the sound that once was.

With earliest reflections I meant the first few reflections from the stage, in VSL's case the Silent Stage on which they record all their samples. Those earliest reflections are missing from the anechoic room SM uses to record all their samples. Because the size of the Silent Stage is much smaller than for example the Grosser Saal (big hall) of the Konzerthaus, the early reflections from that hall will chime in after the earliest reflections in the samples sounded. After the early reflection of the hall, the tail will gradually come in, warmed up a bit with an algorithmic reverb if you want.


----------



## dannthr

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/8 - Samplemodeling DEMO**

I teach Video Game Sound Design at a college in LA part time, so I like simple explanations as well.

All of those reasons are why I tend to favor convolution reverb when simulating acoustic spaces, but to be quite frank, I am not a fan of Altiverb's samples. The quality of their samples is all over the map owing mostly to the strong community of space samplers who capture impulses for the constant updates to their massive library of spaces.

At the moment, I'm trying to find a nice blend of room algorithm and convolution, but I think it's going to take a lot more cooking and I'm approaching it from a highly subjective and intuitive perspective.

What I should do is go through and attempt to mimic acoustic references.

Ultimately, combining spaces (even the quiet reflections on the silent stage) with those of a convolution plug-in or room algorithm are just not going to sound right. 

My simple example and your complex example both present scenarios where the human brain would be able to discern and decode those minor variations in reflection timing and spectral quality to create a full 3-dimensional image of the sound source and the space it occupies.

Our brains are AMAZING at it and they do it all the time.

Combining spaces, recording a string ensemble center stage on a mic tree and then panning it left just breaks the illusion, suddenly the entire space has moved and then adding a reverb to "smooth" things out just makes space for the space and it just starts to sound mushy.

That's why I like libraries that record their instruments pre-staged.

But I don't get everything I want, as I am reminded every day.


----------



## Peter Siedlaczek

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/8 - Samplemodeling DEMO**

Dear Friends,

We wish to express our appreciation to this professional audience for the vivid discussion, comments, and the intriguing audio examples.

Special thanks to Dan, for his valuable demonstration and interesting insights into his approach.

As a small contribution by Samplemodeling , we asked our friend, Maciej Mulawa, for his interpretation of the first part of Mike´s composition, using our instruments. Here is the result of his work:

www.sample-modeling.com/Demos/FHorn+Tub ... _Brass.mp3

Our purpose was not only to show the final audio file, but also to make the MIDI file available to everybody:

www.sample-modeling.com/Demos/FHorn+Tub ... gBrass.mid

This should allow a deeper insight into the programming of each instrument of the whole brass ensemble.

No mastering tools - like EQ, compression etc. - have been used.

Peter & Giorgio

(Please note that we are providing MIDI data only, so mixing and adding the suitable ambience is left to the users)


----------



## adg21

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/8 - Samplemodeling DEMO**

Very cool, but what of Maciej's reverbs? You can't miss out that bit out(!)...how he has his reverbs set up is pretty significant to understanding how he is achieving that sound.


----------



## Hanu_H

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/8 - Samplemodeling DEMO**



adg21 @ Thu Apr 26 said:


> Very cool, but what of Maciej's reverbs? You can't miss out that bit out(!)...how he has his reverbs set up is pretty significant to understanding how he is achieving that sound.


+1


----------



## Peter Siedlaczek

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/8 - Samplemodeling DEMO**



> but what of Maciej's reverbs?



Maciej was using 2 different Altiverb reverbs: for trumpets and trombones: Todd-AO, set to 3,96s, and for the horns and tuba (apart from the early reflections belonging to the instruments): LA Philharmonic-Disney Hall, set to 4,69s.
However, I am sure the mix will also work very well with other devices... 
I hope it helps.

Peter


----------



## Hanu_H

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/8 - Samplemodeling DEMO**



Peter Siedlaczek @ Thu Apr 26 said:


> Maciej was using 2 different Altiverb reverbs: for trumpets and trombones: Todd-AO, set to 3,96s, and for the horns and tuba (apart from the early reflections belonging to the instruments): LA Philharmonic-Disney Hall, set to 4,69s.
> However, I am sure the mix will also work very well with other devices...
> I hope it helps.
> 
> Peter


Cool! Any EQ or positioning(MIR or SPAT) used? Or only reverb?


----------



## Peter Siedlaczek

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/8 - Samplemodeling DEMO**

As said, no EQ or other mastering tools. No MIR or SPAT, just Altiverb (although I am sure SPAT would do very well, probably MIR as well, but I have no experience with MIR). Positioning - just panning: Horn 1: L20; Horn 2: L40; Horn 3: R40; Horn 4: L100; tuba: 0 (midlle); Trumpet 1: R30; Trumpet 2: R70; Trumpet 3: L25; Trombone 1: L30; Trombone 2: R40; Trombone 3 /Bass Trombone: 0 (middle).
(where L100 = left channel, R100= right channel only).

Peter


----------



## Hanu_H

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/8 - Samplemodeling DEMO**



Peter Siedlaczek @ Thu Apr 26 said:


> As said, no EQ or other mastering tools. No MIR or SPAT, just Altiverb (although I am sure SPAT would do very well, probably MIR as well, but I have no experience with MIR). Positioning - just panning: Horn 1: L20; Horn 2: L40; Horn 3: R40; Horn 4: L100; tuba: 0 (midlle); Trumpet 1: R30; Trumpet 2: R70; Trumpet 3: L25; Trombone 1: L30; Trombone 2: R40; Trombone 3 /Bass Trombone: 0 (middle).
> (where L100 = left channel, R100= right channel only).
> 
> Peter


Nice to hear that no MIR or SPAT is required to make SM Brass fit in the orchestra. Now I am really tempted to buy the Brass Bundle. :D

Any change that somebody could record the same midifile with QL Spaces? I am thinking of buying that as well.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/8 - Samplemodeling DEMO**

I'm out of town on a laptop - very excited to hear this in the studio when I get home, but even in this context it seems just night and day from my initial pass. Well done! I hope he can be persuaded to finish the piece 

_Mike


----------



## dannthr

All right, this is one last mixing attempt using Maciej Mulawa's MIDI interpretation with some minor tweaks to the MIDI.

As I mentioned before, not a fan of the color in most of altiverb's impulses, it feels very re-ampy to me, so again, this is w/o altiverb:

[mp3]http://www.dannthr.com/temp/mverta_venture_tres.mp3[/mp3]

(Ironically, I used CB as a mixing reference to start off)



Peter Siedlaczek @ Wed Apr 25 said:


> Special thanks to Dan, for his valuable demonstration and interesting insights into his approach.



Thank you, Peter et al for making such a flexible and interesting virtual instrument series.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/8 - Samplemodeling DEMO**

Maciej Mulawa has finished his interpretation of my piece, and I think it's quite wonderful.

The Great Adventure


I think even a cursory comparison between this rendition and my rather clumsily executed original demonstrates clearly the vast difference that programming can make in the hands of someone intimately familiar with a library versus a novice. Thanks again to everyone for such an enlightening and entertaining experience.


_Mike


----------



## Darthmorphling

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 5/12 - SM Demo Final**

I just wanted to say that about a month ago I stumbled across your Youtube videos while just browsing through the various virtual guitar amp samples. I haven't touched my guitar since as I have purchased a keyboard and my first library, Albion. Learning the keyboard is actually forcing me to learn to sight read music. 

You make it look so easy, even though I am fully aware that it is not. The knowledge that you, and other members of this forum, share is phenomenal. 

Thanks, even though my wife complained about yet another expensive hobby :mrgreen: 

Don


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 5/12 - SM Demo Final**

That's so great to hear, Don. Congratulations and good for you.

Trust me, improving your reading skills, playing/performance skills, and the like will improve your work immeasurably in countless ways; some obvious and direct, most subtle and varied. The more skills you have, the more your creative brain can recontextualize and apply them in ways you hadn't thought of. Knowledge is power.

There are young composers today who think they don't have to know orchestration because they can hire orchestrators, or know how to read music because there are copyists. They think they don't have to improve their playing skills because they can MIDI edit. But these are basic skills, and the point at which one decides they don't need basic skills is the point at which they are forever handicapped and pre-determining the limited quality they can attain. 

It's exactly like somebody deciding that because they aren't going to be a professor of mathematics they don't have to learn to add and subtract. It's tragic bordering on insane.

So good for you; keep at it, and best of luck. Glad the videos were helpful!



_Mike


----------



## Jeffrey Peterson

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 5/12 - SM Demo Final**



mverta @ Fri May 25 said:


> That's so great to hear, Don. Congratulations and good for you.
> 
> Trust me, improving your reading skills, playing/performance skills, and the like will improve your work immeasurably in countless ways; some obvious and direct, most subtle and varied. The more skills you have, the more your creative brain can recontextualize and apply them in ways you hadn't thought of. Knowledge is power.
> 
> There are young composers today who think they don't have to know orchestration because they can hire orchestrators, or know how to read music because there are copyists. They think they don't have to improve their playing skills because they can MIDI edit. But these are basic skills, and the point at which one decides they don't need basic skills is the point at which they are forever handicapped and pre-determining the limited quality they can attain.
> 
> It's exactly like somebody deciding that because they aren't going to be a professor of mathematics they don't have to learn to add and subtract. It's tragic bordering on insane.
> 
> So good for you; keep at it, and best of luck. Glad the videos were helpful!
> 
> 
> 
> _Mike



+1


----------



## EastWest Lurker

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 5/12 - SM Demo Final**



Jeffrey Peterson @ Fri May 25 said:


> mverta @ Fri May 25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's so great to hear, Don. Congratulations and good for you.
> 
> Trust me, improving your reading skills, playing/performance skills, and the like will improve your work immeasurably in countless ways; some obvious and direct, most subtle and varied. The more skills you have, the more your creative brain can recontextualize and apply them in ways you hadn't thought of. Knowledge is power.
> 
> There are young composers today who think they don't have to know orchestration because they can hire orchestrators, or know how to read music because there are copyists. They think they don't have to improve their playing skills because they can MIDI edit. But these are basic skills, and the point at which one decides they don't need basic skills is the point at which they are forever handicapped and pre-determining the limited quality they can attain.
> 
> It's exactly like somebody deciding that because they aren't going to be a professor of mathematics they don't have to learn to add and subtract. It's tragic bordering on insane.
> 
> So good for you; keep at it, and best of luck. Glad the videos were helpful!
> 
> 
> 
> _Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +1
Click to expand...


+2.


----------



## Darthmorphling

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 5/12 - SM Demo Final**



EastWest Lurker @ Fri May 25 said:


> Jeffrey Peterson @ Fri May 25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mverta @ Fri May 25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's so great to hear, Don. Congratulations and good for you.
> 
> Trust me, improving your reading skills, playing/performance skills, and the like will improve your work immeasurably in countless ways; some obvious and direct, most subtle and varied. The more skills you have, the more your creative brain can recontextualize and apply them in ways you hadn't thought of. Knowledge is power.
> 
> There are young composers today who think they don't have to know orchestration because they can hire orchestrators, or know how to read music because there are copyists. They think they don't have to improve their playing skills because they can MIDI edit. But these are basic skills, and the point at which one decides they don't need basic skills is the point at which they are forever handicapped and pre-determining the limited quality they can attain.
> 
> It's exactly like somebody deciding that because they aren't going to be a professor of mathematics they don't have to learn to add and subtract. It's tragic bordering on insane.
> 
> So good for you; keep at it, and best of luck. Glad the videos were helpful!
> 
> 
> 
> _Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +1
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> +2.
Click to expand...


+3

I hope to be able, one day, to contribute in even a small way.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 5/12 - SM Demo Final**

Hi, everyone! Been away awhile, working on an album and dealing with some dramatically-juicy personal issues, but I'm back with a new website, _and_ an announcement...


I've gotten a lot of requests over the years to do training/teaching/masterclasses, etc., a little of which I've addressed through podcasts and videocasts, but I've decided to go "formal" with it this year and am now an instructor at PowHow.com, where I will be doing just that. It's a great format for people the world over to have 1-on-1 training and contact with instructors. I actually use it myself to train with a bodybuilding coach on the opposite coast, and it works beautifully.

Since this community has expressed the most interest, I thought I'd ask - via a sort of informal poll here - what sort of topics you'd most like covered, or what sort of training you'd be most interested in. And would you prefer a class/group setting, or one-on-one?

I took on a couple students this year, who happened to be local, and it was great fun and exciting to watch them grow and learn, plus it really gave me a chance to pare my philosophies and skills down into bite-size chunks. It'll be nice to share that with people no matter where they are, so if that's you, tell me what you'd like to see on the menu! Leveling up: it's a good thing.

_Mike


----------



## musophrenic

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 5/12 - SM Demo Final**

Hey Mike, great to see you around ... hope the drama and the juice aren't soaking you too much! And that the album's coming along soak free too 

I'd be interested in something like that, and I'd say one-on-one is my personal preference. I do some private composition lessons with an awesome local composer, and being able to see what goes through his mind when he composes/improvises is a fantastic privilege - as it would be with you 

As for what sort of topics ... I found your videos on composing with virtual instruments, and what to think about when 'performing' them, invaluable - they literally forever changed the way I approach them. So I suppose I'd be interested in more of the same vein - the sorts of things to think about when doing mock-ups, and how they fit into whether this mock-up is the final version or whether we're working towards a real orchestra/ensemble. The biggest issue I suppose is matching what's in your head, or what your samples are telling you, with what really happens.

Another thing I'd be interested in is 'getting more' out of the technology we have, if you were interested in doing that kind of thing. We spend a lot of time and money on every new VI and plugin, and sometimes neglect the many fantastic things our current technology can still do (and I'm king of the guilty here). I suppose it's a matter of philosophy and approach, and how much time you're willing/able to spend exploring. For instance, when I started approaching my good old EWQLSO with a mindset of pushing it to its limits, I found many wonderful things I can still do with it, in spite of having all the new Hollywood/Adagio stuff. Same with Symphonic Choirs despite having the Soundiron stuff. We don't replace what we've got - we augment the arsenal 

Anyways - just my two cents with extra ramble, sorry!


----------



## Casey Edwards

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/27 - Training!**

I've always wanted to talk Harmony with you, Mike. It's just a matter of whether or not I have the money to do so... :cry:


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## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/27 - Training!**

Well, Casey that's one of the things I want to determine. Obviously everyone prefers 1-on-1 training, but if there are topics that make sense to do to a group, and there are enough people attending, then we can keep the ticket prices way down. I'd like to make that sort of thing available, as well.

_Mike


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## Darthmorphling

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/27 - Training!**

I just have to say that I am on your site right now listening to the music from "A Journey With Purpose" and it is phenomenal. Will the soundtrack ever be available for purchase? Amazing music!


----------



## Mike Marino

I'd be interested in learning more about harmony and voicing from you, Mike.


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## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/27 - Training!**

Two votes for harmony and voicings. Got it 

@darthmorphling: Thank you for the kind words. I really, _really_ wanted to do that stuff live, but the producers just didn't have the money for it. I've been tempted to do a kickstarter for it just to cover costs and donate it; a really touching little film. Anyway, yeah if it was done right, I'd totally be putting it up for sale and giving all the proceeds to foundations in support of holocaust victims, it's just that the virtual version to me is so far from what it should be for tender material like that that I haven't done so. In any case, I'm glad you felt any of its heart come through!

_Mike


----------



## Darthmorphling

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/27 - Training!**

Honestly I would buy the VI versions. It was that good. I actually thought it was the real thing.


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## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/27 - Training!**

What actually happened there was that up until the 11th hour, it was going to be live, and then suddenly they went with the virtual, so I hadn't really put as much love into the vi as I would under normal circumstances. But perhaps it's a testament to something I believe very much about VI which is that the humanity and expression carry more weight than technical precision. Feel over sound, if you will?


----------



## Casey Edwards

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/27 - Training!**

My questions might be geared more towards 'Why' rather than 'How'. I've been educated thoroughly on harmony and voice leading to the point if I don't know it, I can learn it pretty quickly just by examining it. I've noticed your voice leading and progressions are very Williams like with a lot of extended chords, non resolved sus chords, and phrase modulations. I just want to pick your brain about those things.


----------



## CouchCow

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/27 - Training!**

Same here, would love to have harmony and general compositions lessons from you Mike


----------



## kclements

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/27 - Training!**

I would love to learn about Harmony and Orchestration and Midi-Mockup classes.

Cheers - 
kc

p.s. Thanks for all the info here, Mike. Just found this thread and really loving your videos and examples. So great to be able to see how you do these things. One of my big goals this year is to really work on my orchestral (both writing and midi-mockup) chops. Thanks so much for sharing.


----------



## Guy Bacos

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/27 - Training!**

A suggestion to Frederick. I know you'd prefer not to cram too many sections in the forum, but maybe a section "Pedagogy and Teaching" might benefit the forum, also leaving this section more for compositions, especially in more lengthy discussions on the subject.


----------



## Darthmorphling

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/27 - Training!**



mverta @ Mon Aug 27 said:


> What actually happened there was that up until the 11th hour, it was going to be live, and then suddenly they went with the virtual, so I hadn't really put as much love into the vi as I would under normal circumstances. But perhaps it's a testament to something I believe very much about VI which is that the humanity and expression carry more weight than technical precision. Feel over sound, if you will?



I think it shows that the quality of the orchestration, along with the technology available to composers, can make even mock ups sound realistic. 

After the revelation of them being VI, I listened more carefully and was able to hear the little things that pop up with VIs. However, I had to listen with a very critical ear. When your sketches were available in mp3 I downloaded them all and some I could tell right away that they were VI. That didn't take away from the music though as it is superb.

I think that the only people who can tell would be the hardcore music/VI geeks who populate this forum. However, I think that if you did a blind test with several composers doing a mockup of a piece of music and then had a couple of real orchestral versions, even some of us here would not be able to discern between the real thing and some of the mockups.

I think it would actually be quite cool to do this and then never release the results. Just to see the debate/arguments build up :twisted: 

It just shows how good this technology is and what can be accomplished by a well trained composer. There are several pieces, by forum members that achieve the same results.

Enough rambling.


----------



## Darthmorphling

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/27 - Training!**

I would love to learn more about harmony, but I am no where near the level of theory mastery that would be needed to digest it. 

What about a series of video tutorials that cover the subject? You could do a live workshop and then make it available as a video download. This way the participants get the teacher/student interaction and would obviously get a free download. Then you could sell the video.

I would really like to see a video on how you use the modwheel. I'm working on that right now, but it's not something that can be learned easily on your own. You discussed it in your Youtuve video, but a more detailed tutorial would be welcome.

Maybe a video and then a downloadable midi file showing the modwheel data.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/27 - Training!**

If you have absolutely no knowledge of theory, I can argue you're in a better place to learn what really matters about it than a lot of people with advanced degrees. 

This is actually something I think would be very useful - learning a new way to think about harmony and theory, because I don't think it's ever taught correctly. I think it provides comfort and assurance to people who haven't learned to actually write music that connects with people, because it gives them clear rules to follow, and by following, must be right. There is no shortage of academically "perfect" music out there that absolutely sucks balls and nobody would listen to. The theoretical underpinnings and understanding are only useful if you already have the "music" part right. 

We'll get to that...

Keep those suggestions coming!


----------



## Casey Edwards

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/27 - Training!**



mverta @ Tue Aug 28 said:


> If you have absolutely no knowledge of theory, I can argue you're in a better place to learn what really matters about it than a lot of people with advanced degrees.



Eh, I have to disagree slightly with this. At some point or another, you teach yourself shortcuts or other ways to remember what you've discovered and either liked or disliked. So in itself, you're teaching yourself a device in which to remember these sounds. That's all theory is - an aural memory tool. Some people take it quite literal and others don't. It's not rules to me, it's a dictionary in which I can borrow and add ideas to. It's also a long term memory device. Academic training doesn't translate into narrow creativity and non-collegiate musicians aren't aimless gits. I am, and always will be a firm believer in learning theory.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/27 - Training!**

I'm not suggesting learning theory isn't important and useful. It is. It just has nothing to do with writing great music, that's all. I don't consider any theory when I write. It just happens to be theoretically tight, because good music IS theoretically tight. But I learned to write with theoretical precision before I knew the theory the same way I learned to speak grammatically correct English before ever hearing the rules of grammar or parts of speech. 

More on this soon. Pretty sure this is what my first masterclass needs to be on.


----------



## synergy543

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/27 - Training!**

Hmmm....instead of Harmony 101 and voice-leading,.... 

If I could get money and time to study, I'd rather hear Mike talk about his strengths such as his approach to orchestration, balancing orchestral parts, compositional development and structure, speed writing tips, idiomatic use and expression within an orchestration, and maybe an analysis and breakdown of the Race orchestration, etc.

Also, I'd prefer a recorded lecture format that I could later refer to along with the materials rather than an interactive session. Maybe set up an interactive Q&A session after presenting material and lecture?

I'd also like to hear what Mike would like to teach the vi crowd. What do you hear that's most lacking or needed? (maybe development? Or is it out of style?)

For my money I'd want all the good stuff that's not in the textbooks.


----------



## Darthmorphling

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/27 - Training!**

I have to agree with both Mike and Casey. I agree that there is a lot of technically correct music out there and it holds no emotion, or an ability to connect with a listener.

Steve Vai-academically correct music, but very difficult to listen to.

Joe Satriani-academically correct music, but not at the expense of creating catchy melodies.

Dream Theater-Awesome music that is technically challenging and sometimes catchy. Also hard for non musicians to get into due to all of the general technically adept wankery during some of their songs. then Petrucci slows down and creates some very memorable solos.

I also believe that learning theory should be a goal for every musician. I wish I could go back and kick my teenage self repeatedly until he agreed to learn more about theory and sight reading and get over the thought that guitar players are above that stuff.

I am at a point now where I can almost sight read a piano piece that has simple melodies. Chords require me to still think about the fingerings. Still, not bad for learning it on my own since April. 

Some of the theory books are written in a way that requires more background knowledge. It's hard to grasp those concepts without the fundamental ability to see the notes on the page. 

I equate it to my students knowing their multiplication facts. Multiplication charts are like guitar tab. Helpful, but detrimental at the same time. I can teach a student double digit multiplication without them knowing their facts, but they will have a much harder time. Getting into algebraic equations it becomes a lot harder, unless their basic math facts are memorized.

Again more rambling and recess is over so I must go.

I vote again for an instructional video series!

If the price/time was right, I would be interested in doing a group type discussion on harmony and counterpoint.


----------



## Casey Edwards

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/27 - Training!**



mverta @ Tue Aug 28 said:


> I'm not suggesting learning theory isn't important and useful. It is. It just has nothing to do with writing great music, that's all.



I still agree with that in a very direct sense. In-directly it has everything to do with it. You've already had trial and error to test what does and doesn't work well. Some one just decided to start writing this stuff down one day and now we have degrees built around it. 

I'm interested to hear what you have to say for sure. I've started thinking for a long time now, I think people with Jazz backgrounds have a MUCH better understanding and compositional intuition when it comes to harmony and using it effectively in any style. For instance, Ravel was extremely fascinated with American Jazz. John Williams himself is a fantastic Jazz pianist. I took, unfortunately, only one semester of Jazz piano and that was because it was my last semester at school. I still have a million questions in that regard.


----------



## benmrx

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/27 - Training!**

Well I'm obviously very late to the party here, but I just wanted to say THANK YOU! for all this great info! In particular the podcast on finding your own voice. It was extremely motivating, focused and well done. It was exactly what I needed to hear right about now.

-Ben


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/27 - Training!**

There _is_ no late to the party on a thread that's 2.5 years old, Ben.  I'm glad you've found some useful stuff amidst the work, and thanks for the kind words!

_Mike


----------



## Blakus

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/27 - Training!**

Thought I might have a crack at the ole adventure theme.
Excuse general sloppiness and any incorrect timings/notes/lengths - I replayed each instrument once through reading from the messy midi score. I also went pretty light on the tail reverb in an attempt to make it more clean and clear.

http://blakus.com/music/MVertaAdventure.mp3


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/27 - Training!**

Well it's off to a good start! I dig it.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 8/27 - Training!**

Okay, sportsfans... it's on!

In addition to 1-on-1 mentorship/training in theory/composition, orchestration, thematic development, vi-techniques, etc., I'm starting things off with a class on starting out - networking, representation, demos, skillset essentials, etc. - everything I've learned in 20 years of working in Hollywood. A jam-packed hour-and-a-half, live, where you can ask questions, get answers, and build your gameplan for moving forward.

Sign up today at http://www.powhow.com/classes/mike-verta (Mike Verta's PowHow Studio)

See you then!

_Mike


----------



## Kralc

I'd love to able to do this! Would I need a webcam to take part?


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 9/17 - Class Schedule!**

Yeah, but just any cheap one will do. The platform is all about realtime interaction, which is cool. I use it myself with my trainer!

_Mike


----------



## Kralc

Okay, cool. I'll have to make myself look presentable then! Hopefully I can make it.

Thanks.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 9/17 - Class Schedule!**

We're musicians. House rags'll do. There are two dates, 10 seats each so just pick your preferred date and get your ticket!


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 10/31- On Disney/Lucasfilm**

Hi, guys -

Okay, my inbox exploded yesterday after the announcement of Disney/Lucasfilm. 

I appreciate the sentiments, all around, truly, but here's my take on the whole thing:

Cage Match


_Mike


P.S. More stuff and classes coming soon!


----------



## dcoscina

Mike I love your video post. So eloquent and humble but truthfully you're about the only living guy who Should write this score. Love the Giacchino part. Personally I think that guy is overrated. His action writing in particular is clumsy. You're writing kicks his ass all over the place. And harmonically you'd knock his ass out in 2 seconds in a cage match.


----------



## Kralc

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 10/31- On Disney/Lucasfilm**

The delivery on that last line was perfect. :lol:


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 10/31- On Disney/Lucasfilm**

HA 

I've never met Michael - I'd like to; seems like a nice guy. Honestly, the worst thing that happened to him was he got too busy. You can't stop answering the ringing phone, and once you're on that ride, you can't disappear for 6 months or a year or 2 years to really stretch out, collate, experiment wildly, learn new things, etc. Happened to me, too, when I was on the Warner Bros. ride for 7 years. 

That said.... Sucka cain't duck me fo'eva! >)=(


----------



## Justus

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 10/31- On Disney/Lucasfilm**



Kralc @ Wed Oct 31 said:


> The delivery on that last line was perfect. :lol:



There went my hearing! :twisted: 
Good statements, Mike!


----------



## David Story

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 10/31- On Disney/Lucasfilm**

Great fun! Plus truth, thanks Mike.

In 1977 they weren't making movies like Star Wars. They said those days were over 

The golden age came back


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 12/21 - Berlin WW Demo**

Hello, everyone -

I just finished a demo for Berlin Woodwinds*. 

It needs a name - got one?


As usual, it's a fairly brutal demo; the library is completely exposed, with no orchestral context to hide behind. My thinking here is always that putting a library in a naked, virtuoso context reveals its true strengths and weaknesses. It is, essentially, the "worst" it will sound. I think you'll find that BWW fares pretty darn well.

The piece uses BWW only, and all but one of its patches (Clarinet Ensemble). So its instrumentation is:

Flute 1
Flute 2
Piccolo
Oboe 1
Oboe 2
English Horn
Clarinet 1
Clarinet 2
Bassoon 1
Bassoon 2

There is a kiss - and I mean just the slightest hint - of tail reverb added to the library, but otherwise the panning and ambiance/room is from the library itself, using a combination of its mic presets.

Feel free to ask any questions you might have about working with BWW, and I hope you enjoy this silly little piece as much as I enjoyed using BWW to perform it!


_Mike











* For you younger composers, I should explain that woodwinds were a section of the orchestra which used to sit where the extra 8 french horns do, now. They provide a multitude of amazing colors, but are in no way "epic" and are therefore useless.


----------



## JohannesR

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 12/21 - Berlin WW Demo**



mverta @ Fri Dec 21 said:


> * For you younger composers, I should explain that woodwinds were a section of the orchestra which used to sit where the extra 8 french horns do, now. They provide a multitude of amazing colors, but are in no way "epic" and are therefore useless.



LOL LOL LOL! :lol:


----------



## Christian F. Perucchi

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 12/21 - Berlin WW Demo**



mverta @ Fri Dec 21 said:


> * For you younger composers, I should explain that woodwinds were a section of the orchestra which used to sit where the extra 8 french horns do, now. They provide a multitude of amazing colors, but are in no way "epic" and are therefore useless.


We should tell that to producers like bruckheimer now that ban woodwinds from hans zimmer... 

Great woodwind writing Mike and it´s great to hear the library nude.
I think besides vsl BWW is a winner
Names woodwinds respawn? 

Regards

Christian


----------



## germancomponist

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 12/21 - Berlin WW Demo**



mverta @ Fri Dec 21 said:


> * For you younger composers, I should explain that woodwinds were a section of the orchestra which used to sit where the extra 8 french horns do, now. They provide a multitude of amazing colors, but are in no way "epic" and are therefore useless.



Wrong! The extra 8 french horns are there to get a bigger french horn sound but not to replace the woodwinds! Sometimes it would be cool to have also much more woodwinds ... .  

BTW: Nice composition!


----------



## Walid F.

"Dr. Crawk's Laboratory"

Awesome composition and sound. Sounds to me like some mad doctor doing his experiments, failing all the time, but eventually figures it out and succeeds! Like one of those old cartoons.

Rofl.

W


----------



## Stephen Baysted

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 12/21 - Berlin WW Demo**

Very nice writing Mike. I'm really impressed with BWW - especially the shorts and this demo shows them off superbly.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 12/21 - Berlin WW Demo**

Yes, I particularly enjoy the shorts, the playable runs, and the playable tremolo patches.

_Mike


----------



## RiffWraith

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 12/21 - Berlin WW Demo**

Very nice! Love the colors/textures/whetever they should be called. I thought the "space" is really good, but if it were me, I'd try pushing the instruments to the back a bit; they are a little too close. I don't have BWW; are there different mic positions you can work with?

I guess the only thing that bothers me is the repeating Clarinet (?) notes in the beginning (on C). It has a very machine-gun like effect - aren't there RRs? Doesn't sound that way.... Otherwise very very good!  

Cheers.


----------



## musophrenic

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 12/21 - Berlin WW Demo**

Great, as always, Mr. Verta. You're a great musician and a great teacher  the piece kind of reminds me of Shirley Walker's stuff from Batman: The Animated Series - which I adore!

I'm also glad I finally know what these 'woodwinds' are that people keep telling me about - it's been driving me crazy  :twisted:


----------



## reddognoyz

Very Nice! It's a very strident piece by it's nature and BWW punches through. 

RE: "I'd try pushing the instruments to the back a bit; they are a little too close. "

I thin That was Mike"s point. As he said "brutal" exposition. 

glad to hear something of the playable runs. IMHO that's where most VI's fall short, so it's nice to have something specific for the sort of runs that are so ubiquitous in ww writing(at least for me)


----------



## handz

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 12/21 - Berlin WW Demo**

Very nice Mike, lot of "sherzo for motorcycle" and harry potter here in some parts but this is what i like the most anyway. 

And that was very good joke reference about WW replaced by insanely big FH groups now


----------



## ed buller

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 12/21 - Berlin WW Demo**

Lovely demo mike...how do you find this library compares to VSL ?

all the best

ed


----------



## George Caplan

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 12/21 - Berlin WW Demo**

it sounds good.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 12/21 - Berlin WW Demo**

I haven't used VSL's woodwinds since I left my gigastudio setup, so I can't truly compare, though in my setup, the dry direct sound of VSL would work well. While many recent libraries have close mic options, few have the internal consistency across articulations that VSL has. 

While I used the built-in mic positions that come with Berlin WW, in my actual template, I rarely - if ever - use the built-in presets because unless all my libraries are recorded in the same hall, they never quite match. I have found that only by creating a single, unified hall environment can differing libraries truly match, and that means entirely close-mic'd/dry samples. I've heard some people match these differing halls with varying degrees of success, I just haven't been able to do so satisfactorily in my own setup. 

The built-in-hall thing has drawbacks, in general, for samples. It mucks with everything from transitions in legatos to releases when the hall tail/reflections are burned into the samples. But it also has the advantage of simplifying what, for a lot of people, is the most challenging aspect of this stuff, which is the soundstaging.

In listening to all the stems of my Shawn-Murphy-Recorded pieces, I was long ago convinced that the "magic" sound of true orchestral recordings is to be found largely in the bleed - every section bleeds into every other section's mics. It has the effect of creating all this air and space, and varying EQ contributions, etc. As much as separation is valued in recording, the crosstalk is what we rarely replicate virtually.

My own setup does this, essentially, by setting up virtual "mic positions" with different hall settings for each section, and then I feed a little of every section into every other section in addition to its primary mic position. 


_Mike


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 12/21 - Berlin WW Demo**

Just realized I forgot to post this here! There are still some seats available, fortunately.

Hello, everyone! To help you level up for the new year, I'll be doing my first class of 2013 on* Friday, January 4th at 7pm PST*.








90-minutes of my favorite, go-to powertricks tips, and techniques - tools I use every day in my own work. I'll be covering a grab-bag of high-powered implements pulled from my arsenal including thematic development methods, orchestration and voice-leading, technical approaches to dramatic and action scenes, mock-up soundspace tricks, mix psychology 101, and many more.

Whether you're just beginning the journey, or weathered by road miles, I guarantee you'll walk away with some new ammunition in your pouch. Plus, as it's live, you'll have the chance to ask your own specific questions about the material, and your own approaches.


Seat cost: $30

Availability is limited, so PayPal your reservation to [email protected] today, and you will receive and email with link and login information for the class.


Hope you're all having a great holiday season, and we'll see you in the new year!


_Mike


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 1/4 - NEW PIECE!**

Hey, guys - here's a piece I did over a couple of days this week. Sort of an upbeat, modern Wild West type of thing. Enjoy!







LIBRARIES:

QL Silk
Omnisphere - Custom Keyboard Comping Patches, Pad, Guitars, String sweeteners, Bass
LASS Solo Violin
Spitfire Timpani and Percussion
VSL 8 Horns
Cinebrass Horns, Trombones, Trumpet Ensembles
Jasper Blunk's FFF Horns
Samplemodeling Horn, Trumpet, Trombone, Tuba
Cinematic Strings
Heavyocity's Evolve - Percussion/Loop Stuff, Keyboard Bass Accents
Damage - Drum Kit
Stormdrum 2 - Bangs and hits

Sequenced, Tracked, and Mixed in Pro Tools 8, Mac OSX 10.6.8


_Mike


----------



## germancomponist

That mixture "wet & more dry sounds" sounds interesting here, Mike. Nobody can tell you that everything has to sound from a cast.

Cool!


----------



## angelluisrivera

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 1/4 - NEW PIECE!**

Hi, Mike;

I think it would be really interesting if you record that master class and make it available to pay for download it, so people in strange countries and time zones could download IT and watch it over and over, maybe u just thought about it, otherwise would be great, thanks.

Ángel


----------



## mverta

mverta @ Fri Jan 04 said:


>





germancomponist @ Fri Jan 04 said:


> That mixture "wet & more dry sounds" sounds interesting here, Mike. Nobody can tell you that everything has to sound from a cast.
> 
> Cool!



Yes, this was produced/mixed in a more pop/hybrid vein, with lots of z-depth. It's harder to blend, but ultimately a pretty cool sound, to my ears.


@Angel. Yes, noted! 


_Mike


----------



## angelluisrivera

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 1/4 - NEW PIECE!**

GREAT!!!


----------



## sourcefor

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 1/4 - NEW PIECE!**

Very Nice Much respect..I used to use protools exclusively for MIDI,Audio and everyone would always ask how I could do that..and that was protools 5..it is very capable as are you..nice work.looking forward to this evening!


----------



## schatzus

Nice. Love the mix.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 1/4 - NEW PIECE!**

Thanks, guys. Here's a repost to save the newcomers from having to go back pages on a megathread, which sucks.






LIBRARIES:

QL Silk
Omnisphere - Custom Keyboard Comping Patches, Pad, Guitars, String sweeteners, Bass
LASS Solo Violin
Spitfire Timpani and Percussion
VSL 8 Horns
Cinebrass Horns, Trombones, Trumpet Ensembles
Jasper Blunk's FFF Horns
Samplemodeling Horn, Trumpet, Trombone, Tuba
Cinematic Strings
Heavyocity's Evolve - Percussion/Loop Stuff, Keyboard Bass Accents
Damage - Drum Kit
Stormdrum 2 - Bangs and hits

Sequenced, Tracked, and Mixed in Pro Tools 8, Mac OSX 10.6.8



_Mike


----------



## clark

Brilliant piece!

ProTools 8? Any particular reason you haven't upgraded?


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 1/4 - NEW PIECE!**

For the same reason I'm not punching myself in the dick repeatedly.

My equipment works, does everything I need it to, is reliable, and nobody's complaining about what it puts out. 


_Mike


----------



## clark

Ha ha, ouch.

I'm on 8 and I haven't upgraded mainly due to the fact that I'm lazy. Was just curious to your thoughts.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 1/4 - NEW PIECE!**

 Those are they. If it ain't broke, don't fix it  Hey, welcome, by the way!


_Mike


----------



## freddiehangoler

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 1/4 - NEW PIECE!**

Sounds fantastic! the combination of the genres and the instrumentation is awesome. 
Thanks for this!


----------



## zacnelson

Gorgeous new composition, it truly stimulates the senses and imagination, I was transported away


----------



## zacnelson

By the way Mike, I use Pro Tools also, I recently bought the latest iMac and PT9 is working flawlessly in Mountain Lion, not a single crash or hiccup. Running multiple instances of Kontakt 5 and other virtual instruments (Massive etc, Steven Slate drums), also numerous plugins. I never bothered with PT10, didn't seem like they offered much for the big price tag


----------



## Dan Mott

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 1/4 - NEW PIECE!**

Hey Mike

You make me want to quit. You make me feel untalented :D

Love the comp. It's real good! The mix is very good too, nice and wide and full of nice colours.

Good job!


----------



## angelluisrivera

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 1/4 - NEW PIECE!**

@Mike, incredible and the better 30$ I've ever spent, I recomend anybody here to use your next 30$ to acces this 3 hour video, just a litlle feedback;

It'll be great if I could download to watch it locally in my ipad, u know the "shitty" Youtube time responses and anytime I want to watch a specific fragment I have to wait for Youtube times 

Anyway I can't wait to next session

Thanks for sharing this with us
Ángel


----------



## Dan Stearn

Phew! Been working my way through this thread over the past few days and what can I say.. I've learned a lot! Huge thanks to Mike, and everyone else who has contributed. This should definitely be required reading for all new VI-C members!!

Dan


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 1/4 - NEW PIECE!**

Hello, everyone!

Here is a video of the orchestral recording of my piece, "The Race," recorded at Fox by Shawn Murphy. 





This is the piece we'll be doing a comprehensive composition, orchestration, recording, and budget analysis on this coming Friday night during my online masterclass. More info in this thread!


Best,


_Mike


----------



## Blakus

Man, that is so awesome!


----------



## germancomponist

Blakus @ Mon Apr 22 said:


> Man, that is so awesome!



+1


----------



## reddognoyz

I loved watching that piece and would love to see the class, will it be offered as an "on demand" video? I have to wash my hair Friday night


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 1/4 - NEW PIECE!**

It's looking like it!


----------



## germancomponist

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 1/4 - NEW PIECE!**



mverta @ Mon Apr 22 said:


> It's looking like it!



I like your sense of humor, Mike!

You are very welcome! o/~ o-[][]-o o=<


----------



## michaelv

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 1/4 - NEW PIECE!**

Congratulations, Mike. Really, top class, in all departments. Love it.


----------



## Blake Ewing

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 1/4 - NEW PIECE!**



mverta @ Mon Apr 22 said:


> Hello, everyone!
> 
> Here is a video of the orchestral recording of my piece, "The Race," recorded at Fox by Shawn Murphy.
> 
> 
> _Mike



Awesome, but this thing needs some star wipes! :wink: 8)


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/22 - FOX STUDIOS VIDEO**

At least you didn't say epic drums.



@michaelv - ...knew you'd appreciate it. 


Thanks, everyone!


_Mike


----------



## Arbee

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/22 - FOX STUDIOS VIDEO**

While I respect and admire "The Race" as a wonderful and inspiring work, "Charge of the Lawmen" pushes my _I'm-an-orchestral-hybrid-slut_ buttons like nothing I've heard in a long time. Thanks so much for sharing these Mike. When I get five minutes to scratch myself I really must purchase your video tutorial catalogue and lock myself away with them for a while!!

.


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/22 - FOX STUDIOS VIDEO**

Ha! Thanks...  I really want to do another practice piece - like "The Race" is, but this time a hybrid/more modern palette. It's on the radar. I'm glad you like "Lawmen" though I think it needs a far better mix. Hey, there's an idea: if anybody wants to remix it from the stems and really thinks they can do it justice, I'll give you all 5 classes for free. 

Anyway, thanks again 


_Mike


----------



## mverta

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/22 - FOX STUDIOS VIDEO**

This piece was commissioned by Ernest Cholakis as a demo for his _Hollywood Sound Timbral Impulses: LASS Edition_ library currently being discussed in the Commercial Section. It's for string section and harp.






_Mike


----------



## michaelv

Firstly, this reaffirms ( for me ) that LASS is not going away anytime soon, despite the glut of strings libraries chomping at its heels. LASS has this incredibly music-friendly sound: imperfect, just as a composer would wish for mocking up. It can really sing.

Secondly, the writing always defines a library as to its usefulness, and you, Mike, defined, or perhaps redefined what LASS is capable of yielding. I feel almost completely on the same tonal page as yourself, with this. It also further reminds me of the huge, yet lurking, influence the second Viennese school had on the film noir and subsequent horror genre. Without Schoenberg ( Transfigured Night, etc.) and Berg, we wouldn't have benefitted from Herrmann's edgy contrapuntal dialogues, and you really continue that marvellous tradition here. I also hear it in that great post-Goldsmith score of Silvestri's: What Lies Beneath.

In an age of writing in sequencers, in lazy, horizontal slabs, it's great to hear, once in a while, something like this to salvage my faith that all is not lost for the art of writing for film.

Lecture over.Now, get out of here and get scoring……

Great stuff.


----------



## mverta

High praise; thank you, Michael! And Happy New Year. Here's looking forward to more "yesterday's" music.


----------



## michaelv

Without the past, there'd be no future, Mike…

The same to you,sir, and all the VI people.


----------



## JF

A hauntingly beautiful composition, Mike.


----------



## davidgary73

Good day Mike,

Just wondering if you're going to do a John Williams masterclass soon as you mentioned in the Free For All class?


----------



## The Darris

I just listened to your take on a Star Trek theme and I have to say my reaction was this: >8o when I heard the opening chord. If they end up doing a new series,which I would skeptical of anyways, I f**king hope they contract your for the theme. I really think you captured the spirit of the series and universe with your rendition, well done sir.


----------



## mverta

Thank you! Glad you enjoyed the Star Trek arrangement. That one was fun...!

@David - Yes, it's called "Here's Johnny!" and it's either the next, or second one I'll be offering. Stay tuned. If you're not on my mailing list, email me at [email protected] and I'll add you!

_Mike


----------



## RiffWraith

*Re: Mike Verta's Sketches and More - *UPDATE 4/22 - FOX STUDIOS VIDEO**



mverta @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> This piece was commissioned by Ernest Cholakis as a demo for his _Hollywood Sound Timbral Impulses: LASS Edition_ library currently being discussed in the Commercial Section. It's for string section and harp.



Awesomesauce! :D


----------



## davidgary73

mverta @ Fri Jan 24 said:


> @David - Yes, it's called "Here's Johnny!" and it's either the next, or second one I'll be offering. Stay tuned. If you're not on my mailing list, email me at [email protected] and I'll add you!
> 
> _Mike



Awesome. Just emailed you and looking forward to "Here's Johnny" masterclass. 

Cheers


----------



## SymphonicSamples

Hey Mike , The Race is a serious Tour De Force , wonderful piece . So "Here's Johnny" , well if it's as entertaining and informative as all the past classes it should be wonderful


----------



## creativeforge

mverta said:


> *Re: Mike Verta's Sketches*
> 
> You can't worry about that shit. Master your craft, always do your absolute best, network whenever and wherever you can, be personable and fun to work with. Let the universe take care of the rest.
> 
> _Mike



That's it right there for me, Mike... great stuff.

Regards,

Andre


----------



## mverta

I wrote and performed this quick arrangment this morning in celebration of Independence Day. Hope you enjoy.


----------



## Pasticcio

mverta said:


> I wrote and performed this quick arrangment this morning in celebration of Independence Day. Hope you enjoy.



Do you always write these anthem arrangements to celebrate the movies you've scored?

Seriously though, really nice!


----------



## wbacer

Sounds great, gives your goose bumps. 
And has the movie been released yet?


----------



## mverta

Since I did this as a speed-writing exercise this morning, I generally stick to "what-I-did-is-what-it-is," but having just listened again, I realized it needed four small adjustments. 1 was a voicing/chord thing in the first bit with the clarinet, second was a slightly less obtrusive counterpoint in the horn line, third was adding the "II" in the bass to a V-I cadence, making it a II-V-I, and finally was altering the final chord to have a resolution. They're little things, but they make a difference!



Here's the .mp3 of the "final." https://www.dropbox.com/s/2ywjfuz67fyfrk8/Mike_Verta-Star-Spangled_Banner.mp3?dl=0


----------



## tack

I wish I was this productive on my days off.


----------



## Maximvs

mverta said:


> Since I did this as a speed-writing exercise this morning, I generally stick to "what-I-did-is-what-it-is," but having just listened again, I realized it needed four small adjustments. 1 was a voicing/chord thing in the first bit with the clarinet, second was a slightly less obtrusive counterpoint in the horn line, third was adding the "II" in the bass to a V-I cadence, making it a II-V-I, and finally was altering the final chord to have a resolution. They're little things, but they make a difference!
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the .mp3 of the "final." https://www.dropbox.com/s/2ywjfuz67fyfrk8/Mike_Verta-Star-Spangled_Banner.mp3?dl=0




Great stuff Mike!


----------



## Maximvs

I would like to ask if someone may be willing to give any feedback on Mike's Counterpoint 1 masterclass. 

Thanks a lot in advance...


----------



## milesito

Massimo said:


> I would like to ask if someone may be willing to give any feedback on Mike's Counterpoint 1 masterclass.
> 
> Thanks a lot in advance...


Massimo - how much experience do you have with counterpoint? I personally found it very informative. I had only taken one counter point class in college and had learned a little about it from some of Mike Vertas other classes. I thought it was really useful and Mike approaches it from a very pragmatic perspective and gives some great examples of different types and levels of complexity of counterpoint. In addition his examples are also framed to reference how it can be applied to film composing. So my two cents is go for it! And especially for the price, you will definitely get some valuable nuggets of info from this class.


----------



## tack

The ultimate distillation of Counterpoint I:

"There's a hole! ... There's another hole! Hole ... hole! ..."

I mean that in a good way.


----------



## Maximvs

- Thanks a lot Milesito for your kind feedback on Mike's Counterpoint 1 masterclass...

- Thanks Tack for your comment, I see what you mean, but "there is a hole here and there" not always suggest that Counterpoint has to be used


----------



## tack

Massimo said:


> Thanks Tack for your comment, I see what you mean, but "there is a hole here and there" not always suggest that Counterpoint has to be used


No, and obviously Mike's class wasn't so superficial, but if you watch the class you'll see what I mean.


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## Maximvs

tack said:


> No, and obviously Mike's class wasn't so superficial, but if you watch the class you'll see what I mean.


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## mverta

To date, nobody's ever asked for their money back, if that helps.


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## mverta

My demo for the new sample library from Musical Sampling, Adventure Brass. It's called, “Engaging the Fleet & The Escape.”




_Mike


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## dan1

mverta said:


> Adventure Brass


omg


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## artomatic

mverta said:


> My demo for the new sample library from Musical Sampling, Adventure Brass. It's called, “Engaging the Fleet & The Escape.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Mike


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## artomatic

That's incredible!


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## mverta

Hollywood Strings


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## dgburns

" A brilliant composer with absolutely no career to speak of."

I don't know whether to laugh or cry. I'm a gonna go get another beer.


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## Cass Hansen

Mike,

Absolutely superlative in every respect! I found the harmony and counterpoint a feast for the ears. It’s true when one uses a well-known melody such as this and we then change the harmonic subtext of the original piece to something completely foreign to what we expect, on first hearing you say, “what the f***”. But after listening to this through several times, I have to say I really like what you have done and where you went with it.

The form works great. Basically in two parts, on the first half the cellos take the melodic lead while violins provide the counterpoint , and then the reverse on the second half with viola and violin picking up the melody and then back to cellos for the coda. The contrapuntal texture of these lines are intricate and amazing. Also Love the beginning in each section with the minor tonic to minor chromatic mediant and then immediately back to tonic. Ties the two halves of the piece together and gives that foreboding sadness to the overall character of the piece.

I’ve never heard the Hollywood Strings sound so cohesive and real! I’m fairly new here and I’m probably known as the “piano guy” since that’s what I’ve posted. But that’s mainly because I only had an old Pentium/ 8gig memory system to work with and you can’t do much orchestration with that. Just built a new system (finally) and I just purchased Hollywood strings but I find all the legato patches (really all the patches) overwhelming. Could I ask which basic ones you used for this piece?

Oh yeah, before I go, enquiring minds want to know, was that homage to E.T. at 0:55 in the cellos intentional or one of those subconscious acts of inspiration? 

Cass


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## germancomponist

mverta said:


> My demo for the new sample library from Musical Sampling, Adventure Brass. It's called, “Engaging the Fleet & The Escape.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Mike



Sounds good, but not as real players ..... . Sir, I know you can do it better!


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## dcoscina

mverta said:


> Hollywood Strings



Love the harmonic variations of the Force theme in this. Dearly wish you'd gotten a chance to score Rogue One....really really really wish you did. Sigh.


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## mverta

@Cass Hmm at :55 I'm pretty directly quoting the Star Wars main title, is that what you mean?

@gc for sure there are many levels this could go. In truth it was just a template test a couple days ago - I didn't intend on writing anything. That said, I lose energy for mock ups quickly, because as you point out, it'll pale by comparison!

@dc thank you, but what if I had? Then I'd have done... Rogue One... Would that be a good thing? I dunno..didn't exactly think it was fantastic. Still, who among us wouldn't jump at the chance, right?


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## Cass Hansen

mverta said:


> @Cass Hmm at :55 I'm pretty directly quoting the Star Wars main title, is that what you mean?



LOL! Of course it’s the Star Wars main theme, duh... The first 5-notes of E.T. and the Star Wars theme
are the same except the downward notes are a triplet in Star Wars and a duplet in E.T. and since your quote used duplets at that point, I heard E.T. .

I always come up with completely different answers with ink plot interpretation tests too! Oh well………

Cass


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## mverta

Ha! totally understand...


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## AlexanderSchiborr

dgburns said:


> " A brilliant composer with absolutely no career to speak of."
> 
> I don't know whether to laugh or cry. I'm a gonna go get another beer.


+1 ..I allready have one. 
@mverta You know what I think..*smile*


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## mverta

A quick composition improv to test a vintage sounding template...


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## mverta

For those production-inclined, here's the stereo version for comparison to find out just how much of the sound is in the mono fold-down.

Libraries: Adventure Brass, Berlin Woods, Spitfire Perc/Piano/Harp, and some ensemble patches from Symphobia 1.

http://www.mikeverta.com/Posts/60s_Template_Test_Stereo.mp3


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## Oliver

brilliant Mike!
Are you a reborn 60ies composer?


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## Saxer

Sounds great! Instant flashback!

Probably a high cut on everything and close mics of the Spitfire stuff?
The low brass sounds excellent. Up to now I was missing the fatness in the low dynamics of Adventure Brass when doing pad like chords. How did you achieve this?
No strings?


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## mverta

The low brass is usually layered with Symphobia, which also has nice air around it for this sort of thing. High cut: yes; close mics: sometimes, not all. For this particular thing, like all the original Star Trek stuff, there were no strings! There are occasional solos and double bass, but part of the Star Trek sound, anyway, is no strings which is a great restriction to try to learn how to pad out chords otherwise. That'll get your woodwind chops together but quick.


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## Saxer

Thanks for that infos!


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## synergy543

Great class on re-writing the Forbidden Warrior theme. Thanks Mike. This quote really summed it up:

DW: I'm in freaking awe... this is like a basketball player hitting 99% 3 pointers from the corner for two hours now.

Mike also gave out the score for this piece which was originally recorded and mixed by Shawn Murphy. The original is a terrific reference resource and even more so with the actual score in hand.

Mike revised and made changes to the score while mocking it up in realtime. The results were really amazing considering how fast this was done and how few articulations changes he used. Inputting expression while performing (just as a real player does) seemed to be the key. Mike posted the mp3 on his site and maybe he'll post it here as well? (I don't want to post it without his permission) Its an amazing opportunity to learn from many different angles (over his shoulder, comparing the mockup to the original, and referencing the real orchestral score).


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## Kent

@mverta , do you happen to know any specific resources on what the makeup/instrumentation of the general TOS orchestra (understanding that it changed somewhat weekly) was? Do you cover this at all in your series, for example?


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