# Plugins that can push the sound away



## Pier (Aug 2, 2022)

I often hear sounds in music which do not feel in my face but rather pushed deeper. They just feel a bit more diffuse and behind the more upfront sound but do not necessarily have a reverb tail.

Do you know what I'm talking about?

When mixing they are definitely using some kind of reverb with early reflections and/or psychoacoustic effect to achieve this and I wanted to start this thread to discuss this topic a bit.

I know of 2Caudio Precedence and Panagement but I was wondering if anyone had other plugins they could recommend.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 2, 2022)

DearVR Pro
Eventide SP2016
VSL Mir Pro
Eareckon EAReverb


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## Pier (Aug 2, 2022)

I was just going to post Dear VR 😂









CP-AllProducts


Discover Dear Reality's ultimate tools for immersive audio production and learn more about our spatializers, virtual mix rooms, VR, and interactive audio plugins.




www.dear-reality.com





What are your favorites Doctor?


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Aug 2, 2022)

This one can do it:









SP2016 Reverb


Reverb Time Machine The SP2016 was the first programmable effects box available on the market. It introduced the concept of the ‘plug-in’ to the pro … SP2016 Reverb Read More




www.eventideaudio.com


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## doctoremmet (Aug 2, 2022)

Pier said:


> I was just going to post Dear VR 😂
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I should have gotten MIR Pro right from the start. Brilliant package. Paradigm shifting (for me). And the 3D version was just released so now is the time to invest, I guess. The price may seem steep, but in the end I think I could have avoided buying the other stuff all together.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 2, 2022)

Pier said:


> I know of 2Caudio Precedence and Panagement


Please read this, all I will say….






Email from Denis at 2C Audio


Just got an email from 'Denis [formerly?] at 2C Audio'. Long story that I will not post here, unless anyone can confirm, but it asks me to boycott the company and products because of a pending lawsuit. Weird that it came to my school email, and I don't own any 2CA effects.




vi-control.net


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## Pier (Aug 2, 2022)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> This one can do it:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was just listening to the demos. It does sound fantastic.


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## Trash Panda (Aug 2, 2022)

Sonible Proximity EQ+: https://www.sonible.com/proximityeq/

If you have Vienna MIR Pro, you can engage the dry solo mode and use that to push the sound back without the room IR.

You can also use any parametric EQ plugin to high pass out the low end, dip a bit in the mids and a shelf to lower the top end.


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## Pier (Aug 2, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> I should have gotten MIR Pro right from the start. Brilliant package. Paradigm shifting (for me). And the 3D version was just released so now is the time to invest, I guess. The price may seem steep, but in the end I think I could have avoided buying the other stuff all together.


I'm sure it's the real deal.

A bit too expensive for me for just playing around though 

What's the difference between the expensive version and the one that says (24) ? Is it the number of instances you can run?


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## doctoremmet (Aug 2, 2022)

Pier said:


> Is it the number of instances you can run?


Correct. I have this 24 version.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 2, 2022)

Also, just read everything @Dietz and @Beat Kaufmann have ever written on the subject. I do recall there is a pretty recent thread about this very subject. I’ll do a search…


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## doctoremmet (Aug 2, 2022)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> This one can do it:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great one too.

Obligatory Alan Meyerson video post:


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## Trash Panda (Aug 2, 2022)

Oddly enough, I always found SP2016 just made something sound like it was in a bigger room using the Alan Meyerson trick (100% wet, shallow depth value with <1 second reverb decay) more so than it made something sound farther away. Sure you can dial up the depth to "push it back" but it sounds more like conventional reverb going that route. 🤷‍♂️


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## Pier (Aug 2, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> Oddly enough, I always found SP2016 just made something sound like it was in a bigger room using the Alan Meyerson trick (shallow depth value with <1 second reverb decay) more so than it made something sound farther away. Sure you can dial up the depth to "push it back" but it sounds more like conventional reverb going that route. 🤷‍♂️


You mean the trick on the first video by Joël Dollié?

Yeah it does sound very good but I don't feel the sound is being pushed back much.


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## method1 (Aug 2, 2022)

Proximity | Tokyo Dawn Records


A distance pan pot offering intuitive access to psychoacoustic models. Finalist of the KVR Developer Contest '12.




www.tokyodawn.net


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## re-peat (Aug 2, 2022)

Surely, you’re not considering MIR just to push some sounds into the recesses of a mix, *Piers*? Nothing much against MIR, but pushing things back in a mix is such a trivial and simple job. You can do that with any half-decent reverb or, better still, a clever combination of reverb, EQ and a bit of delay. No recess will ever be too recessy if you master the use of that combination.

But if you feel short on reverbs you’re happy with for this type of task, a plugin that’s at least as good as the SP2016 at pushing things back — it’s capable of a lot more, of course — and that is also much cheaper than either the SP2016 or MIR, is the TC Electronic 8210. It’s got eight different classic TC-algorithms: next to the standard ‘hall’ and ‘room’, there’s ‘live’, ‘plate’ and ‘spring’, ‘box' and ‘ambience’ and a few of these are *very* effective at pushing things back, simply by changing the dry/wet balance. (I often use two 8210’s in tandem: one for the push, another one for the bloom.)

Up until a week or two ago, most TC plugins were on sale. You could buy the 8210 for as little as $29. That sale has ended though which means that you now have to pay $49. Which is still insanely cheap for what you get. (The 'DT' hardware controller is entirely optional, the plugin is fully functional and just as easy to operate without it.)












_


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## Pier (Aug 2, 2022)

re-peat said:


> Surely, you’re not considering MIR just to push some sounds into the recesses of a mix, *Piers*?


No, of course not 

(btw it's Pier without an s)

I know the classic tricks but these are really not as convincing as stuff like Mir, Precedence, Dear VR, etc, which I imagine use psychoacoustic tricks.

For example, the TC reverb you shared is a nice reverb. I like the space simulation but I really don't feel as if the sound is being pushed back too much.

Listen to this demo for Dear VR:



If you go to the last part of the video where he compares between dry/wet you can hear how shaker is pushed back very effectively. I don't think this can be accomplished with just EQ, delays, and regular reverb although I'd be happy to be proven wrong.


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## Bollen (Aug 2, 2022)

I'll throw in my 2p, I recommend Virtual Soundstage 2, cheap and I've used it for a decade!
https://www.parallax-audio.com/


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## The Gost (Aug 2, 2022)

No phasing .... ??


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## Pier (Aug 2, 2022)

Seventh Heaven is also pretty good at this.

Listen to this demo around 16:30 (the video is timestamped)


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## Pier (Aug 2, 2022)

Bollen said:


> I'll throw in my 2p, I recommend Virtual Soundstage 2, cheap and I've used it for a decade!
> https://www.parallax-audio.com/


Here's a good demo if anyone is interested:



Edit:


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## Pier (Aug 2, 2022)

This is a good demo for EAReverb 2:



Most of the examples are way too wet but I guess that's on purpose to showcase the reverb.


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## re-peat (Aug 2, 2022)

Pier said:


> Listen to this demo for Dear VR ..



I'm not a fan of DearVR, Pier. I also don't like any convolution-based spatialization tools. Always sounds wrong to me in some way or other. But part of the reason might also be that I'm spoiled by IrcamSPAT which is what I use when, for whatever reason, I decide that the spatialization of a certain sound or instrument needs to be better than just OK. 

For most day-to-day spatialization work however, I find the combination I mentioned earlier more than sufficient. After all, in a mock-up, in whatever style or genre, there's always going to be something which is going to annoy my ears much more than less-than-perfect spatialization.

Very sorry about the 's'. I knew that, you know, I've always written it correctly before in other threads, but for some reason that 's' got added today.
_


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## Trash Panda (Aug 2, 2022)

re-peat said:


> I also don't like any convolution-based spatialization tools. Always sounds wrong to me in some way or other.


Has the new version of MIR improved upon this approach in your eyes?


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## liquidlino (Aug 2, 2022)

Is there a reason no one has mentioned Panagement? I've used it quite a bit, seems pretty good at the stage placement thing, but I'm no expert. Is it not a good tool?


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## ed buller (Aug 2, 2022)

Eventide Stereo Room Is perfect for this

Best

e


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## Pier (Aug 2, 2022)

re-peat said:


> I'm spoiled by IrcamSPAT which is what I use when, for whatever reason, I decide that the spatialization of a certain sound or instrument needs to be better than just OK.


Do you use it via Max?

Do you know if IrcamSPAT is powering IRCAM verb?


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## Pier (Aug 2, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> Is there a reason no one has mentioned Panagement? I've used it quite a bit, seems pretty good at the stage placement thing, but I'm no expert. Is it not a good tool?


I have in my OP


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## Pier (Aug 2, 2022)

ed buller said:


> Eventide Stereo Room Is perfect for this
> 
> Best
> 
> e


You mean this, right?









2016 Stereo Room


The Art of Reverb The 2016 Stereo Room reverb plug-in was crafted to simulate a great sounding ‘room’. Delay lengths, reflections, and other properties of … 2016 Stereo Room Read More




www.eventideaudio.com





Apparently it is now the SP2016 plugin.


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## liquidlino (Aug 2, 2022)

Pier said:


> I have in my OP


Whoops! My reading comprehension drops a few grades at 6am. Question still stands, what doesn't it do that you're looking for? I don't use it's reverb, I just use panagement as a panner/depth tool.


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## sostenuto (Aug 2, 2022)

Panagement 2 just $32. right now @ Site. 🤷🏻 







Auburn Sounds - Panagement, free reverb audio plug-in







www.auburnsounds.com


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## Trash Panda (Aug 2, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> Whoops! My reading comprehension drops a few grades at 6am. Question still stands, what doesn't it do that you're looking for? I don't use it's reverb, I just use panagement as a panner/depth tool.


It causes pretty bad phase correlation issues whenever I pan anything with it. :(


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## Pier (Aug 2, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> Question still stands, what doesn't it do that you're looking for?


Oh I just want to talk about this depth thing. Find new plugins or techniques I might not be aware of.


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## ed buller (Aug 2, 2022)

Pier said:


> You mean this, right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


no

it's a different plug in I prefer the "stereo room" to the SP2016






That was a late 80's toy that was in Protocol Studio 1 in London where I did a few records. Got an earful from Kevin Shields at some party cos I used it all over a Boo Radleys record. He was mad as that was HIS toy. !



Great for stereo backwards sounding reverb !

But the "Stereo Room" is just that. A great room and easy to use

Best

e


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## liquidlino (Aug 2, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> It causes pretty bad phase correlation issues whenever I pan anything with it. :(


I hadn't picked up on that I will take a look. Wouldn't any processing for depth beyond eq and compression cause phase issues though? Speaking of compression no one has talked about that. From mixing with Mike I learned how to use the attack of a compressor to control how forward or backward in a mix a track is. Not quite the same degree of spatial depth as maybe you're looking for pier, but it does have that effect. Starts to happen as the attack goes under 3ms to my ears.


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## re-peat (Aug 2, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> Has the new version of MIR improved upon this approach in your eyes?


Haven’t tried the latest MIR yet. I figure that most of the wonders of its 3D-ness will escape me completely anyway being only able to work with it in stereo in my studio. But I can’t say that what I’m hearing in the official demos — granted, listened to on a stereo system — struck me as special in any way.
Inspirata is another convolution-based reverb/spatialization tool that fails to impress me. Used as a conventional reverb, yes, but as soon as those IR’s are being shifted, filtered and manipulated for spatialization purposes, the sound quickly deteriorates as well, I find.

But again, I find accuracy of spatialization increasingly less important these days. Certainly *much* less important than many other musical factors or parameters. I used to spend crazy amounts of time on spatialization in every mix (and invested a lot of money in it as well) up until a year or two ago, when it started to dawn in on me that in the larger scheme of all things mock-up — and by ‘mock-up’ I mean anything sample-based and DAW-generated, not necessarily orchestral — it doesn’t really matter what you use or how ‘realistic’ it is. As long as it used with an understanding of what the music needs, and used with a healthy minimum of technical know-how of course. 

Musical, functional and inconspicious, that’s what I’m aiming for now.

_


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## Pier (Aug 2, 2022)

ed buller said:


> it's a different plug in I prefer the "stereo room" to the SP2016


Maybe the ADDA conversion has something to do with the rack version sounding different?

Anyway, this marketing video by Eventide is pretty funny though


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## re-peat (Aug 2, 2022)

Pier said:


> Do you use it via Max?
> Do you know if IrcamSPAT is powering IRCAM verb?


IrcamVerb is a part of IrcamSPAT. SPAT’s unique spatialization powers however go far beyond what IrcamVerb on its own can do. (We had a long and at times quite interesting thread about IrcamVerb *here*.)

I was afraid of not being able to continue working with SPATv3 — still my favourite version of the software — in Logic once I had moved to a MacStudio and Monterey, and the AU-plugin indeed no longer gets validated, but I found a solution: DDMF’s Metaplug. I load the VST (not the AU!) of SPATv3 in Metaplug and Metaplug then runs as an AU in Logic. Works well and even expands on SPAT’s powers thanks to Metaplug’s advanced routing options.

__


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## Pier (Aug 2, 2022)

re-peat said:


> IrcamVerb is a part of IrcamSPAT. SPAT’s unique spatialization powers however go far beyond what IrcamVerb on its own can do. (We had a long and at times quite interesting thread about IrcamVerb *here*.)
> 
> I was afraid of not being able to continue working with SPATv3 — still my favourite version of the software — in Logic once I had moved to a MacStudio and Monterey, and the AU-plugin indeed no longer gets validated, but I found a solution: DDMF’s Metaplug. I load the VST (not the AU!) of SPATv3 in Metaplug and Metaplug then runs as an AU in Logic. Works well and even expands on SPAT’s powers thanks to Metaplug’s advanced routing options.
> 
> __


Thanks for the info.

Just to clarify, when you refer to SPAT you mean the Flux product, the stuff available in the forum, or something else?


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## doctoremmet (Aug 2, 2022)

ed buller said:


> Got an earful from Kevin Shields at some party cos I used it all over a Boo Radleys record. He was mad as that was HIS toy. !


Thanks for mentioning Kevin Shields. I always enjoy your anecdotes - especially when they revolve around some of my musical heroes. Plus I learned something about Kevin’s reverb preferences. I wish I could be a fly on the wall during the MBV tracking & mixing sessions.


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## re-peat (Aug 2, 2022)

Pier,

I mean IrcamSPAT, the spatialization plugin, and more specifically IrcamSPAT v3 (a near-perfect version of the software which Flux have, most unfortunately, replaced with the much more unwieldy SPAT Revolution.)

SPAT v3 can no longer be purchased. Below are three examples of how it looked, and what it can do:

*Example 1*
*Example 2*
*Example 3*

*_ *


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## method1 (Aug 2, 2022)

For some reason this thread reminded me of this Roland classic that was sadly too far ahead of it's time, and it even works without headphones!


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## Pier (Aug 2, 2022)

re-peat said:


> Pier,
> 
> I mean IrcamSPAT, the spatialization plugin, and more specifically IrcamSPAT v3 (a near-perfect version of the software which Flux have, most unfortunately, replaced with the much more unwieldy SPAT Revolution.)
> 
> ...


Woah fantastic stuff.

Now I understand why my google-fu was failing me


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## SupremeFist (Aug 2, 2022)

I'm interested in this subject because I don't understand technically what a magic "push-backer" plugin could be doing on top of the known recipe of LPF + high wet/dry balance + minimal predelay. Seems to work fine for me doing that manually when I really want to but is there some other special sauce possible?


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## Pier (Aug 2, 2022)

SupremeFist said:


> I'm interested in this subject because I don't understand technically what a magic "push-backer" plugin could be doing on top of the known recipe of LPF + high wet/dry balance + minimal predelay. Seems to work fine for me doing that manually when I really want to but is there some other special sauce possible?


I'm not an expert by any means but there are psychoacoustic position algorithms which basically "trick the brain".

Eg: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-related_transfer_function

Apple's Spatial Audio is another example. It takes an Atmos source and does some magic to covert it to stereo.

Edit:

Listen to this with headphones.



It was probably made with a binaural recording (two mics with a head model) but this is what the HRTF tries to achieve I believe.

Anyway, my point is you can't achieve this with the usual old school depth tricks (LPF, delay, etc).


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## Aldunate (Aug 2, 2022)

Air Plugin


Air simulates the natural dampening that happens to higher frequencies from sounds as they travel through air.




www.soundparticles.com





Reverb aside, I would say high-frequency attenuation and level should do it. 

Also, the farthest the object, the less we can pinpoint its location. 
Therefore a more diffused space (Reverb) or some widening of the source could do this.


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## timprebble (Aug 2, 2022)

Aldunate said:


> Air Plugin
> 
> 
> Air simulates the natural dampening that happens to higher frequencies from sounds as they travel through air.
> ...


Part of it is about realism. Sometimes realism is desired but other times evoking the effect is all thats required. Processing DX for 'through the wall' or 'down the phoneline' are good examples where its not real, but has the desired effect.

You're right that "high-frequency attenuation and level should do it'

Adding distance to exterior sounds (rather than an element of music) is even more difficult, but high freq roll off, level and complex filtered slap echos can evoke that.

I love the idea that sounds are 'carried by the wind'


carried by the wind – Music of Sound



related but off topic - some research & calculations I did for exterior distance, which shows how a filter could be modelled:


Worldizing Revisited – Music of Sound


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## Illico (Aug 2, 2022)

And what about ATMOS mixing plugins? It seems you can spot object in 3D space.


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## Billy Palmer (Aug 2, 2022)

Loads of good suggestions here. Cheaper and less frequently mentioned, I find the early reflections in Waves H-verb surprisingly effective - at least when it comes to string soloists.
As you mentioned it - imo precedence does a good job on wet/'semi-wet' libraries, though needs breeze or another reverb to really place dry recording in a room.


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## Pier (Aug 2, 2022)

I found this wonderful post by @Beat Kaufmann where he does it with the Cubase stock convolution and cutting the IR very short:






Need help with early reflections...


Hey everybody, I’ve been doing a deep dive and trying to learn as much as I can about reverb and using sends (instead of just putting a reverb on the instrument channel). One thing I’ve seen a lot of people do is create multiple sends for different types of reverbs or for different instrument...




vi-control.net





There's even an example that goes from close to far using that technique:


He calls this "room depth without much tail". I guess it's a technical term


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## Macrawn (Aug 2, 2022)

Just curious but for those spacialization plugins don't you really want pretty much a close mike with as little reverb as possible?

I went through the Denis Sands mix course and it was 90 percent about panning and positioning with a room and hall reverb (if necessary) and the pro tools dual pan where you can edge in the width a little if you want to localize something. Maybe even eq some of the highs to push something back. Pretty sure he achieves whatever positioning software can with just those things.

I guess my problem is I think I'd really like to use some of that positioning software, but I'm pretty invested in libraries that have lots of mics recording the halls and are pretty wet. Seems silly to me to use close mics and mono the signal so I can use some positioning software like Dear VR to put it into a room and position it. 

If I were doing it all over maybe I would go for a good dry library and use the positioning software to get really creative. But I have what I have. 

I do have Dear VR and I think it's really great, but right now I'm just using it on mono material. I tried using it on some wet material recorded in a hall and it just sounded wrong. I think you want a nice dry and mono signal with it. Dear VR has your early reflections built in plus the hall reverb. It just doesn't work to have a signal that already has a reverb from a different position, and then pan it using dear VR somewhere else. The same must be true for those other placement reverbs. To me if sounds messed up if you use a wet signal. 

I would like to know what other people think who are using the placement plugins. You are all using them on dry close mics right? If not does it still work for you?

So my method is just using early reflections, hall reverb, and and panning to position. Maybe even eq some high end if I want to push something back. I'm well short of what Dennis Sands can do with the stereo field using just those tools.


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## GtrString (Aug 2, 2022)

Audiothing Texture - 12$ or free with purchase at Audio Deluxe right now.









Things Texture - Granular Reverb (VST, AU, AAX) - AudioThing


Things - Texture can transform any sound into an ambient soundscape, or add that drone vibe to your tracks.




www.audiothing.net


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## re-peat (Aug 2, 2022)

Aldunate said:


> Also, the farthest the object, the less we can pinpoint its location.
> Therefore a more diffused space (Reverb) or some widening of the source could do this.



I would argue the opposite: not widening, but narrowing. If a sound occurs in a room, no matter where it is positioned in that room, the room’s response fills the entire width of the stereo image evenly. Nature of the beast. The only way there could be an audible imbalance, is if the reflective behaviour of the room was very uneven to begin with, say, with one side very absorbant (carpets, curtains and such) and the other side very reflective (marble, glass, polished emptiness…). But since nobody in his or her right mind would ever record in such a room, that contingency needn’t be considered.

Because of this, the further back a sound, the less extreme its imaging (or ‘width’) can be. That’s also the nature of the beast. You can’t have far left or far right pannings in the most distant alcoves of an orchestral or mock-orchestral situation. Well, you can, I suppose, in abstract theory, but the reality is that by the time those instruments reach the microphones or the listener’s ears, their sound will have more or less dissolved in, or absorbed by, the room’s response (which, as was said, fills the stereo image evenly) and thus appear, inevitably, more centred in the mix.

Replicating this ‘narrowing’ phenomenon, rather than widening what’s happening in the back of the orchestra, is a big part of suggesting or increasing depth in your mix. The closer to the listener, the wider you can pan (because the source signal is still strong enough to reach the ear directly from any specific and well-defined location), and the further back, the more everything gravitates and blurs towards the centre (because the source signal has now been largely overtaken by that evenly spread room response during the time it takes to reach our ears).

Pre-delay or early reflections play no part of significance in any of this.

I have the principles of visual perspective in the subconcious back of my mind when mixing: a fully wide front layer (where the most extreme pannings are possible) and behind that, gradually narrower layers of increasing depth. And at the very back, I imagine a virtual vanishing point (where all the perspective lines converge) right in the centre of the stereo image. Not something I follow rigorously at all times, but the idea is definitely always there.

_


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## Bee_Abney (Aug 3, 2022)

Here is the same seventy-six second duet between a cello and a bamboo flute four times - so about five minutes. Each time I used different spatial positioning software with settings that should bring the cello forwards and move the bamboo flute away.

1. Ina-GRM Space 3D (though in stereo)
2. dearVR pro
3. Sound Particles' Air
4. Sonbile's proximityEQ+

The sources are fairly dry, but not completely. Only dearVR pro included reverb and early reflections, which I left on as it is part of what the plugin does.

High end is associated with nearness and height; low mids with distance. Hence the choices - to position them against their natural qualities - make the high instrument further away, and the lower one closer.

Spaces and Air are also particularly good for movement, as they include doppler emulations; but I didn't experiment with that here.


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## Russell Anderson (Aug 3, 2022)

SupremeFist said:


> I'm interested in this subject because I don't understand technically what a magic "push-backer" plugin could be doing on top of the known recipe of LPF + high wet/dry balance + minimal predelay. Seems to work fine for me doing that manually when I really want to but is there some other special sauce possible?


gentle saturation and (near-0 attack) compression, reduced transients relative to the sustain and room tail impart depth. And reducing width, and bringing the close stuff even closer (and wider) is all I can really think of. I recently discovered doing small high shelf boosts in the side signal sounds a lot more 3D when done in linear phase. Dynamic width can also be interesting, making transients more or less wide in very small amounts can sometimes be very exciting or interesting.

Also the new Quantum 2772 is a great reverb for depth, or at least 3D-ness anyway. With most other reverbs I find I'm relying heavily on predelay and envelope for 3dness (and delays... everything I can do to tell the ear that the reverb isn't a flat diffuse sheet behind the source sound). I have a lot more control with CRP and it's still my go-to, but the 2772 works super well and super easily, and it just sounds more 3D in the tail. It is my second go-to now, I'd like to try them in combination but it might get hairy so I haven't bothered yet


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## Russell Anderson (Aug 3, 2022)

I always wonder, who would win in a fight? MIR or SPAT?


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## MartinH. (Aug 3, 2022)

re-peat said:


> I would argue the opposite: not widening, but narrowing. If a sound occurs in a room, no matter where it is positioned in that room, the room’s response fills the entire width of the stereo image evenly. Nature of the beast. The only way there could be an audible imbalance, is if the reflective behaviour of the room was very uneven to begin with, say, with one side very absorbant (carpets, curtains and such) and the other side very reflective (marble, glass, polished emptiness…). But since nobody in his or her right mind would ever record in such a room, that contingency needn’t be considered.
> 
> Because of this, the further back a sound, the less extreme its imaging (or ‘width’) can be. That’s also the nature of the beast.


Doesn't it depend on the source? I think a mono source dead center and close should be narrower than when it's positioned far back since the reverb likely isn't mono and you hear more of it in relation to the dry signal when the source is far away. But with a stereo source like a string section it's of course like you said, the farther away the narrower the stereo image gets.




Trash Panda said:


> It causes pretty bad phase correlation issues whenever I pan anything with it. :(


I think you can disable the head delay to get rid of most of the phase issues from binaural panning. When you also disable the spectral processing it's probably fully gone, but then you might as well just pan your daw track. And simple changing of stereo width doesn't change phase correlation at all, I use that all the time. Just don't overdo the boosts. Panagement is a great tool!



Also - someone correct my if I'm wrong please - doesn't every stereo signal have non perfect phase correlation by definition and thus some kind of comb filtering when you collapse it to mono? Sometimes I wonder if we're worrying a bit too much about that. I've even seen one example where Dan Worrall used Haas delay to intentionally cause different comb filtering on two tracks to make their frequency spectrums interlock better in mono without masking each other. Understand all the tools and then use them as appropriate!


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## Pier (Aug 3, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> Here is the same seventy-six second duet between a cello and a bamboo flute four times - so about five minutes. Each time I used different spatial positioning software with settings that should bring the cello forwards and move the bamboo flute away.
> 
> 1. Ina-GRM Space 3D (though in stereo)
> 2. dearVR pro
> ...


I think DearVR is the one really pushing the flute backwards here. It even feels a bit too much 

Ina GRM is more subtle but works.

Air and Proximity barely do anything regarding depth.


----------



## Bee_Abney (Aug 3, 2022)

Pier said:


> I think DearVR is the one really pushing the flute backwards here. It even feels a bit too much
> 
> Ina GRM is more subtle but works.
> 
> Air and Proximity barely do anything regarding depth.


I can hear some effect from all of them; but whether that effect is the illusion of distance is another matter! I really like Ina GRM for this but it does deal with smaller distances. Air, by contrast, is doing quite a lot but only some of it really affects the distance. It is designed to simulate the affect of different air, including temperature and humidity. Distancewise, it is better at much great distances than small ones - it goes up to several kilometres away.

Proximity seems to only do a small amount of the job. It does little more than turn the volume up or down and make things a little sharper or indistinct at the same time.

So, yes, of these four, Dear VR pro is the one to use for most musical purposes; Ina GRM for sound design; Air for adding distant audio such as foley-like sounds; and Proximity... maybe not at all, unless I just don't know how to get good results out of it yet.


----------



## AudioLoco (Aug 3, 2022)

While spatialization software may be really useful and work wonders, engineers have been churning wide, deep sounding mixes for years without the need for this kind of specialized software.
Reverb, panning, stereo spread, short delays, stereo phase manipulation, specific effects return processing and other various classic mixing techniques have all been and are very effective at that.

It's great for mono, dry sources (and modeled instruments) but honestly the aformentioned techniques can yield great results easily.
To get a signal with a lot of room info already in it, like the ones we get with most of our sample libraries, and manipulate it to re-place it again somewhere with these tools doesn't really work for me most of the times.
At least for "regular" mixes I'm content with other techniques. If there are specific ultra wide or other, specific goals for the mix then anything goes and these are great tools to have!


----------



## AudioLoco (Aug 3, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> Also - someone correct my if I'm wrong please - doesn't every stereo signal have non perfect phase correlation by definition and thus some kind of comb filtering when you collapse it to mono?


Yes. Correct.
If there is no difference (therefore also phase information difference) between right and left channel it ain't stereo.


----------



## dunamisstudio (Aug 3, 2022)

Mir, like already mentioned.

Waves Bauer Motion. Course can't remember if it can stay still.


----------



## Pier (Aug 3, 2022)

Something I forgot to mention regarding the psychoacoustic algos...

I heard Fabrice Dupont saying in a video that these generally don't work on him. For some reason his brain doesn't accept the simulation, or something 

It's an interesting point that we don't all perceive sound the same way.

To me most reverbs sound absolutely flat in terms of depth. Yeah the diffusion is there, the nice tail, the early reflections, the modulation, etc. But in terms of actually hearing the sound pushed back? Very few do it. I don't know if this is a psychoacoustic thing or just the quality of the DSP or simply that my brain is defective


----------



## goalie composer (Aug 3, 2022)

FWIW, the Beat approach...


----------



## timbit2006 (Aug 3, 2022)

SpatGris does what everything here does but its free and made by some very smart Canadians. 




__





GRIS – Sound Spatilialization







gris.musique.umontreal.ca





For simply pushing something "back" though I really like ProximityEQ+ by Sonible. You really actually need something like this EQ anyways to help prepare sounds for placement in things such as SPATGris3 or DearVR anyways to get every sound right.


----------



## Bee_Abney (Aug 3, 2022)

timbit2006 said:


> SpatGris does what everything here does but its free and made by some very smart Canadians.
> http://gris.musique.umontreal.ca/x
> For simply pushing something "back" though I really like ProximityEQ+ by Sonible. You really actually need something like this EQ anyways to help prepare sounds for placement in things such as SPATGris3 or DearVR anyways to get every sound right.


I had a feeling that proximityEQ+ might have a role working with other things. Thanks for the link, too.


----------



## Kyle Preston (Aug 3, 2022)

Like @ed buller, my go to is also 2016 Stereo Room. I learned about it via this Alan Meyerson video, he talks about it around 4:00.

​
It's still, imho, the most authentic-sounding positioning plugin out there. Although, I believe there was a thread here awhile ago with Hans talking about using Cinematic Rooms for positioning -- and those recent soundtracks of his, the mixes sound "deeper" than anything I've ever heard; might be worth exploring?


----------



## doctoremmet (Aug 3, 2022)

@KEM What’s mister Zimmer’s way of creating depth with Cinematic Rooms? I gather you’d know…


----------



## Pier (Aug 3, 2022)

timbit2006 said:


> SpatGris does what everything here does but its free and made by some very smart Canadians.
> http://gris.musique.umontreal.ca/x


The URL is wrong btw.

"RIEN DE TROUVÉ"


----------



## timbit2006 (Aug 3, 2022)

Pier said:


> The URL is wrong btw.
> 
> "RIEN DE TROUVÉ"


Oh dang I think I fatfingered an "x" in the end when copy/pasting.





__





GRIS – Sound Spatilialization







gris.musique.umontreal.ca


----------



## Pier (Aug 3, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> @KEM What’s mister Zimmer’s way of creating depth with Cinematic Rooms? I gather you’d know…


I was just listening to some CR demos and it does create some very realistic depth.

For example the demo voice here (wait a couple of seconds):


----------



## Kyle Preston (Aug 3, 2022)

Oh that's wicked, so it has proximity dial, like the position dial in 2016 Stereo Room. And to my ears, sounds fantastic. I assume the Bloom knob is like a Diffusion control?

Either way, it's going on my insta-buy list.


----------



## Pier (Aug 3, 2022)

Kyle Preston said:


> Oh that's wicked, so it has proximity dial, like the position dial in 2016 Stereo Room. And to my ears, sounds fantastic. I assume the Bloom knob is like a Diffusion control?
> 
> Either way, it's going on my insta-buy list.


Yeah I'll be getting it as soon as it's on sale 

This might be of interest:









Which Edition Of Cinematic Rooms Is Right For Me? - LiquidSonics







www.liquidsonics.com


----------



## Trash Panda (Aug 3, 2022)

Pier said:


> Yeah I'll be getting it as soon as it's on sale
> 
> This might be of interest:
> 
> ...


Chorus Modulation is also something only available on the Pro version, but the differences article was written prior to the rollout of v1.1.









Chorus Added To Cinematic Rooms Professional In v1.1 Update - LiquidSonics







www.liquidsonics.com





Ducking is also a Pro only feature









Dynamics Added To Cinematic Rooms Professional v1.2 - LiquidSonics







www.liquidsonics.com


----------



## Bee_Abney (Aug 3, 2022)

I trialed Cinematic Rooms Pro and actually didn't like it much. Yes, it sounded beautiful and had complexity; but it was so good at staying out of the way (before ducking was introduced) and beautifying that it just didn't sound real to me.

That's a bit of a minority opinion, as I know a lot of people think it sounds realistic!

At any rate, realism is only sometimes the goal; verisimilitude often comes at the cost of being less realistic since reality isn't always how we imagine or remember it.


----------



## KEM (Aug 3, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> @KEM What’s mister Zimmer’s way of creating depth with Cinematic Rooms? I gather you’d know…



Man I wish I knew how he does it!! There’s some really good tips in this Alan Meyerson interview, I’ve applied them to my own Cinematic Rooms preset and liked the results

https://film-mixing.com/2016/07/28/film-score-mixing-with-alan-meyerson/


----------



## Pier (Aug 3, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> I trialed Cinematic Rooms Pro and actually didn't like it much. Yes, it sounded beautiful and had complexity; but it was so good at staying out of the way (before ducking was introduced) and beautifying that it just didn't sound real to me.
> 
> That's a bit of a minority opinion, as I know a lot of people think it sounds realistic!
> 
> At any rate, realism is only sometimes the goal; verisimilitude often comes at the cost of being less realistic since reality isn't always how we imagine or remember it.


Maybe you're having like an uncanny valley kind of effect.

But yeah, realism is not always the goal. Plate reverbs, Blackhole, etc, are not meant to be realistic.


----------



## Bee_Abney (Aug 3, 2022)

Pier said:


> Maybe you're having like an uncanny valley kind of effect.
> 
> But yeah, realism is not always the goal. Plate reverbs, Blackhole, etc, are not meant to be realistic.


It may also be down to the presets. I was just checking it out quickly, so I mainly used presets with tweaking. In preset after preset, the reverb was just far too short for how full it was. Like a small bathroom, but with the sound quality of a concert hall. Whatever the reason, it just left me not believing what I was hearing. By comparison, the old Symphony 3D is also really beautiful but sound more realistic to me. Cinematic Rooms is definitely a step up in the detail of the sound, though. A step up in terms of current expectations of music technology, but not a step towards realism.

It worked out well for me, though; as Cinematic Rooms isn't cheap. It's a perfectly reasonable price in comparison to the market at large, though.


----------



## robgb (Aug 3, 2022)

Pier said:


> I often hear sounds in music which do not feel in my face but rather pushed deeper. They just feel a bit more diffuse and behind the more upfront sound but do not necessarily have a reverb tail.
> 
> Do you know what I'm talking about?
> 
> ...


Learn to use Pre-fader/Post-FX sends to your reverb. That will give you all the depth you need without the necessity of a plugin.


----------



## ed buller (Aug 3, 2022)

Kyle Preston said:


> Like @ed buller, my go to is also 2016 Stereo Room. I learned about it via this Alan Meyerson video, he talks about it around 4:00.
> 
> ​
> It's still, imho, the most authentic-sounding positioning plugin out there. Although, I believe there was a thread here awhile ago with Hans talking about using Cinematic Rooms for positioning -- and those recent soundtracks of his, the mixes sound "deeper" than anything I've ever heard; might be worth exploring?



Nobody has ears like Alan. They broke the mould. Some of my best memories watching him work. 

best

e


----------



## Kyle Preston (Aug 3, 2022)

That's awesome you've seen him work Ed, so so cool, he's the best! Everytime I see a thread pop up, anywhere on the internet, asking _how can this sonically be better? _It's inevitable his name comes up (rightfully so). He's just so damn good at his job -- his mixes feel like angels pouring warm lavender honey in my ears.


----------



## ed buller (Aug 3, 2022)

Kyle Preston said:


> That's awesome you've seen him work Ed, so so cool, he's the best! Everytime I see a thread pop up, anywhere on the internet, asking _how can this sonically be better? _It's inevitable his name comes up (rightfully so). He's just so damn good at his job -- his mixes feel like angels pouring warm lavender honey in my ears.


He's an absolutely lovely guy too. Very humble and kind. Taught me loads...some of it about sound too !

best

e


----------



## Pier (Aug 3, 2022)

Here's another plugin I wasn't aware of. It's called Slapper. Found it on the Alan Meyerson video shared earlier.

Listen to the girl that says "hello!" at around 0:18


----------



## Pier (Aug 3, 2022)

MTurboReverb is no slouch either.

Listen to those electric piano notes around 6:04 with the Large Space Thump chamber device.


----------



## KEM (Aug 3, 2022)

Pier said:


> Here's another plugin I wasn't aware of. It's called Slapper. Found it on the Alan Meyerson video shared earlier.
> 
> Listen to the girl that says "hello!" at around 0:18




Lorne Balfe has also been vocal about his love of this plugin!!


----------



## jcrosby (Aug 3, 2022)

Hey @Pier, this is a really cool and obscure trick I picked up on in a Dan Worrall video last year.

If you delay only the mid channel (or side channel, either works... just not both) by tiny amounts you create depth. It sounds different from simply using reverb, delay, EQ, imaging, etc... 

See the video below. How he does it, and what it sounds like starts at *8:05*.


----------



## kgdrum (Aug 3, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> I trialed Cinematic Rooms Pro and actually didn't like it much. Yes, it sounded beautiful and had complexity; but it was so good at staying out of the way (before ducking was introduced) and beautifying that it just didn't sound real to me.
> 
> That's a bit of a minority opinion, as I know a lot of people think it sounds realistic!
> 
> At any rate, realism is only sometimes the goal; verisimilitude often comes at the cost of being less realistic since reality isn't always how we imagine or remember it.




Since when did the concept of realism come into Beeyonce’s consciousness?


----------



## re-peat (Aug 3, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> (...) a really cool and obscure trick (...) If you delay only the mid channel (or side channel, either works... just not both) by tiny amounts you create depth.



Mathew Lane’s *DrMS*, a remarkable spatial processor, exploits that same idea — and has been doing so since 2007 — to bring added depth and/or focus to the sounds it processes. It allows you to offset the Mid from the Sides (or the other way 'round), filter both differently, alter the way each defines the stereo image, and do some other things that will have an impact on the perceived width and depth of what passes through it.

What’s makes DrMS extra special is that it doesn’t compromise the mono-compatibility. It’s very easy to mess about with Mid and Sides and create an impressive suggestion of width and depth in a mix, but if you do it carelessly, there’s every chance you end up with something that collapses completely (or cancels itself out) when heard in mono. Not so with DrMS.

(Acustica Audio’s *SpaceControl* takes some of those same ideas even further, and adds a phase limiter, although this plugin focuses more on width than on depth.)

In normal use though, DrMS is all about fairly subtle (but nonetheless telling) changes; you can’t push an instrument or sound all the way to the back of a mix with this software, that’s not what is was designed for either. Not many people seem to be using this plugin, but those who do are usually not willing to part with it. I know I'm not.








Another option: Audiority’s *SpaceStation UM282*. Listen to these examples:








_


----------



## Pier (Aug 3, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> Hey @Pier, this is a really cool and obscure trick I picked up on in a Dan Worrall video last year.
> 
> If you delay only the mid channel (or side channel, either works... just not both) by tiny amounts you create depth. It sounds different from simply using reverb, delay, EQ, imaging, etc...
> 
> See the video below. How he does it, and what it sounds like starts at *8:05*.



Yeah I'm a fan of Dan Worrall and had seen this video. I've learned a lot of stuff from his videos.

There are all sorts of weird phasing things that can be done with simple delays. It's not the same, but Waves has this little old plugin called Doubler which can create some interesting widening effects.

This is not very cinematic 😂 but it's a good example:



I don't use Waves stuff anymore and I've never found a replacement for Doubler. I think the closest thing is Eventide's MicroPitch delay but you don't have the same level of control and it's only 2 delays instead of 4.

Edit:

Just remembered about Sound Toys Microshift:


----------



## KEM (Aug 3, 2022)

Pier said:


> Yeah I'm a fan of Dan Worrall and had seen this video. I've learned a lot of stuff from his videos.
> 
> There are all sorts of weird phasing things that can be done with simple delays. It's not the same, but Waves has this little old plugin called Doubler which can create some interesting widening effects.
> 
> ...




Waves Doubler is still used VERY heavily in pop and hip-hop, it’s what everyone uses for vocals in those genres!!


----------



## Pier (Aug 3, 2022)

KEM said:


> Waves Doubler is still used VERY heavily in pop and hip-hop, it’s what everyone uses for vocals in those genres!!


Oh I know!

(this is a Fawlty Towers reference that probably only @Bee_Abney will catch)


----------



## KEM (Aug 3, 2022)

Pier said:


> Oh I know!
> 
> (this is a Faulty Towers reference that probably only @Bee_Abney will catch)



That looks like it was made about 30 years before I was even a thought in my parents minds lol


----------



## Kyle Preston (Aug 3, 2022)

Pier said:


> Oh I know!
> 
> (this is a Faulty Towers reference that probably only @Bee_Abney will catch)


Oh I’m there too. Anytime Fawlty Towers, Monty Python or Mitchell and Webb is mentioned, I’m 100% in love with the situation, however horrifying. 

But I know nothing…


----------



## dainiak (Aug 3, 2022)

Leapwing StageOne should do the job as well: https://www.leapwingaudio.com/product/stageone/
They also have CenterOne plugin that does a good job in splitting the signal into central/left/right (like Mid-Side on steroids): https://www.leapwingaudio.com/product/centerone/

Unreasonably expensive plugins at normal price, but have 50%+ discounts on BF.


----------



## Bee_Abney (Aug 3, 2022)

Pier said:


> Oh I know!
> 
> (this is a Faulty Towers reference that probably only @Bee_Abney will catch)


Oh, I know!


----------



## cedricm (Aug 4, 2022)

I'm uaing Nugen Paragon ST. 
+convolution reverb, but with algorithmic reverb flexibility 
+also available for multichannel audio. 
-can't use 3rd party IRs.


----------



## Pier (Aug 4, 2022)

Kyle Preston said:


> But I know nothing


But I learn!



KEM said:


> That looks like it was made about 30 years before I was even a thought in my parents minds lol


I'm way older than you and wasn't even born when it aired back in 75 😂

But at home we're big fans of Monty Python so of course we know about all their other stuff.


----------



## Pier (Aug 4, 2022)

Pier said:


> I don't use Waves stuff anymore and I've never found a replacement for Doubler. I think the closest thing is Eventide's MicroPitch delay but you don't have the same level of control and it's only 2 delays instead of 4.


Now that I think of it, it should be possible to get much closer with any modular fx environment like KiloHearts SnapHeap since it has up to 7 seven parallel chains.









Kilohearts | Snap Heap


Effects playground




kilohearts.com





Not sure how to accomplish the same detune like in Doubler though but it should be trivial to replicate the delays, pan, filters, etc.


----------



## AudioLoco (Aug 4, 2022)

Pier said:


> I don't use Waves stuff anymore and I've never found a replacement for Doubler. I think the closest thing is Eventide's MicroPitch delay but you don't have the same level of control and it's only 2 delays instead of 4.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> Just remembered about Sound Toys Microshift:



Microshift sounds very different to Doubler 2. It sounds more like an effect while Doubler is much more invisible but you definitely feel it's gone when you take it off.

I like both, but for invisible thickening of vocals Doubler 2 wins hands down.

Another good option is a free one, Acon multiply. Not as effective but pretty good.


----------



## AudioLoco (Aug 4, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> I trialed Cinematic Rooms Pro and actually didn't like it much. Yes, it sounded beautiful and had complexity; but it was so good at staying out of the way (before ducking was introduced) and beautifying that it just didn't sound real to me.
> 
> That's a bit of a minority opinion, as I know a lot of people think it sounds realistic!
> 
> At any rate, realism is only sometimes the goal; verisimilitude often comes at the cost of being less realistic since reality isn't always how we imagine or remember it.


...good to know I'm not alone in this 
Have been trying to like Cinematic Rooms since I bought it and try it as a first option when putting up a reverb.... to no avail (for now) as R4, VSS3 or VSS4 always take the lead...
Don't know about realism, I'm just not that keen on the sound. 
For realism other IR based processors such as Altiverb and even Waves IR1 are no brainers IMHO.


----------



## jcrosby (Aug 4, 2022)

Pier said:


> Now that I think of it, it should be possible to get much closer with any modular fx environment like KiloHearts SnapHeap since it has up to 7 seven parallel chains.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This would be pretty easy to replicate... It's basically 3 parallel channels - a separate delay for the left and right, and a dry channel for the mid. Then you would modulate each delay with some chorus, and add panners for the left and right separately. Then just add discrete EQs or filters for to the left and right channels. That should get you quite close...

I have a similar rack I made in Live and it does a great job.


----------



## Pier (Aug 4, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> This would be pretty easy to replicate... It's basically 3 parallel channels - a separate delay for the left and right, and a dry channel for the mid. Then you would modulate each delay with some chorus, and add panners for the left and right separately. Then just add discrete EQs or filters for to the left and right channels. That should get you quite close...
> 
> I have a similar rack I made in Live and it does a great job.


Yeah this type of stuff is dead easy in Live and Bitwig with fx racks. Unfortunately I'm in Cubase now! 😂

BTW I thought you were using Logic?


----------



## Bee_Abney (Aug 4, 2022)

Pier said:


> Yeah this type of stuff is dead easy in Live and Bitwig with fx racks. Unfortunately I'm in Cubase now! 😂
> 
> BTW I thought you were using Logic?


If you have an EQ or compressor that does mid/side, you just have two sends - one has mid only selected and nothing else, one has side selected plus a stereo delay plugin. I'm sure you have something that can set this up. I've been meaning to try something like this out; but the effects I most want to vary between mid and side are compression and EQ, and I have mid/side versions of those. I wonder how it would sound to a listener if the mid had more or less reverb/echo than the side.

I haven't tried mid-side divisions like this, but I do multiband splitting inside Studio One's Splitter plugin, so it is all done as an insert. I have a stereo pitch shifting delay with different settings for each band, for example. It's a bit murky, but a nice effect. It does, at any rate, sound quite far away!


----------



## Pier (Aug 4, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> If you have an EQ or compressor that does mid/side, you just have two sends - one has mid only selected and nothing else, one has side selected plus a stereo delay plugin. I'm sure you have something that can set this up.


Oh yeah with the KiloHearts stuff I can mostly replicate Doubler. They even have a ProQ style EQ that has mid/side processing (which can be loaded inside SnapHeap, Multipass, or PhasePlant).


----------



## JSTube (Aug 4, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Please read this, all I will say….
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't even know what this was about but somebody on another thread just mentioned Precedence to me and I _almost_ bought it, but their website was very strange and kept bringing me to a faux-looking paypal checkout page, I was hoping to try a coupon code and then I cleared the cart and my cookies and it keeps bringing me back there to check out, not giving me the usual options, etc. I'm not suggesting anything malicious is going on but I also am not willing to find out because I don't want to. Website acting weird? No thanks. This extra drama from two developers who've never met before but have no problem using their customer-given info to duke out their personal differences on the world audio stage? No thanks.

Another plugin I almost got for this but can't recommend was Har-Bal synthetic space; no paypal way to check out, really? I'll pass.. (it sounds great fwiw)

I'll not recommend anyone check out either Precedence or Har-Bal.

I've seen good uses for Virtual Soundstage but it's so old, I don't know if I want it. (who's to say it'll continue to work as macOS updates continue to break old stuff?)



doctoremmet said:


> Eareckon EAReverb


Continues to be the only one I keep getting referred back to!


----------



## Bee_Abney (Aug 4, 2022)

Pier said:


> Oh yeah with the KiloHearts stuff I can mostly replicate Doubler. They even have a ProQ style EQ that has mid/side processing (which can be loaded inside SnapHeap, Multipass, or PhasePlant).


I gave it a quick try. A clarinet, first with no reverb, then with conventional reverb (plate), then with more reverb on the sides than the mid. I did some basic level matching.

One would expect that the wider it sounds, the closer it would sound. But also that the more reverb there is, the further away it sounds; and that the wider the reverb sounds, the further away it sounds. How that works here is another matter!

Of course, this would only be part of the work of adding depth. But there is also the difference between adding depth in the sense of making something sound further away and adding depth in the sense of the making the sound itself (or the sound source, however that works) sound in itself deeper - just as it might sound wider or narrower.


----------



## JSTube (Aug 4, 2022)

Unfortunately *eareverb* _doesn't support newer versions of macOS_. :( I run an M1 machine so unfortunately that's out, too.

I need something for early reflections only, that will automatically handle time delays for me and the as well as the LPF reductions with distance. Virtual Soundstage 2 to my knowledge doesn't delay the time signal, and it's old and unmaintained as well.

I want something specifically algorithmic, not convolution based, that's going to handle both those aspects of distance (time and LPF reduction). If anyone has anything that fits the bill*, please let me know. I want a virtual room, not 1980's plates from eventide, etc. At some point pushing something back does literally just start to mean: use your wet:dry. Room and ER simulation are a vastly different beast. Best not conflate the two.

Yes Beat Kauffmann's stuff deserves another plug.

*bill for me =
-runs on apple's current machines
-company accepts paypal
-is algorthmic (more specifically is not convolution based) and specifically meant for room simulation and generating accurate ERs where there were _none_ before
-handles proximity tonality changes over distance automatically


----------



## jcrosby (Aug 4, 2022)

Pier said:


> Yeah this type of stuff is dead easy in Live and Bitwig with fx racks. Unfortunately I'm in Cubase now! 😂
> 
> BTW I thought you were using Logic?


I use Logic for most things, but have actually used Live longer (around 18 years). Sometimes I like to sketch out the early phases of a track in Live then export stems or MIDI... And when I need to do sound design or make signatures Live's my weapon of choice.


----------



## Bee_Abney (Aug 4, 2022)

JSTube said:


> Unfortunately *eareverb* _doesn't support newer versions of macOS_. :( I run an M1 machine so unfortunately that's out, too.
> 
> I need something for early reflections only, that will automatically handle time delays for me and the as well as the LPF reductions with distance. Virtual Soundstage 2 to my knowledge doesn't delay the time signal, and it's old and unmaintained as well.
> 
> ...


I think, but I'm not 100% sure, that Reverb Foundry's Tai Chi can do all of these. You can definitely dial it to early reflections only, and it is multiband; but I'm not sure about the time delay.


----------



## Trash Panda (Aug 4, 2022)

JSTube said:


> Unfortunately *eareverb* _doesn't support newer versions of macOS_. :( I run an M1 machine so unfortunately that's out, too.
> 
> I need something for early reflections only, that will automatically handle time delays for me and the as well as the LPF reductions with distance. Virtual Soundstage 2 to my knowledge doesn't delay the time signal, and it's old and unmaintained as well.
> 
> ...


I cannot recommend MIR 3D strongly enough for placing something in a room. Every other trick I have tried in comparison using Precedence, Proximity, EAReverb 2, etc. all sound incredibly fake in comparison to my rather amateur ears.

I know you're looking for something purely algorithmic though, so you might have to try out the stripped down version of SPAT Revolution (SPAT Essentials at $399) or fork out the big bucks for the full version, which will be around $2k, which is more than MIR 3D Pro + all room packs.

You can also trial both MIR and SPAT to see which one you get along with better. I think SPAT offers a subscription model as well, but I'm not a fan of that approach when a permanent license is available.

@re-peat swears by SPAT v3, which sounds amazing, but is nearly impossible to find.


----------



## Alchemedia (Aug 4, 2022)

You've got to just keep on pushing
Keep on pushing
Push the sound away!


----------



## Bee_Abney (Aug 4, 2022)

Alchemedia said:


> You've got to just keep on pushing
> Keep on pushing
> Push the sound away!



I've been really wanting to post that in this thread, so thank you!


----------



## Alchemedia (Aug 4, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> I've been really wanting to post that in this thread, so thank you!


"You must go on, _I can't go on, I'll go on_."


----------



## Bee_Abney (Aug 4, 2022)

Alchemedia said:


> "You must go on, _I can't go on, I'll go on_."


Thank you Samuel Beckett!

'Try again. Fail again. Fail better.'


----------



## JSTube (Aug 4, 2022)

https://www.meldaproduction.com/MReverb

This came up. Any thoughts?

edit:

I bought it based off some youtube clips, sounds good enough for me, gives nice doubling on the percussion with the ERs, exactly what I'm looking for. It was cheap enough. I was gonna go with VSS2 but there's already a thread on here that's questioning its obsolescence and whether or not it's abandon ware. Fwiw VSS2 works on the demo, but it won't save presets unless you buy it. Developer seems to not answer company emails so ...

looks like there's some cool features here, allows exporting your reverb as an IR, that could be handy.. no inter-plugin operability such as VSS2 and others but I guess for $40 I can't complain!

Seems to do a great job at adding a LOT of something where there was "none!"


----------



## Living Fossil (Aug 5, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> I know you're looking for something purely algorithmic though, so you might have to try out the stripped down version of SPAT Revolution (SPAT Essentials at $399)...


I would recommend to have a look at the IRCAM verb 3 which is excellent for these tasks.
The only downside of it is that it doesn't give you macro controls to get certain positions in space, so you have to figure out the parameters yourself. (in a similar way as in the EA reverbs Nimbus and R4).


----------



## Noeticus (Aug 5, 2022)

This works rather well... and it's FREE!

It's called "Quilcom Faranear", and you can find it way down on this page...






Quilcom - Flowstoners


Why Quilcom?AcknowledgmentsAbout plugins made with FlowstonePlease note that the most recent additions are at the bottom of the listing. This was my first project made with Flowstone.I've always had a keen interest in additive synthesis so I started off with…Read more ›



flowstoners.com





Here is a video demo...


----------



## Noeticus (Aug 5, 2022)

Also, off topic, check out the free "Quilcom TERRORMIN".


----------



## Bee_Abney (Aug 5, 2022)

Noeticus said:


> Also, off topic, check out the free "Quilcom TERRORMIN".



It's not off topic: it's far out, man!


----------



## Pier (Aug 5, 2022)

Edit: This is probably a crap test... beware of your ears!

I've been playing a bit with some of the reverbs I have basically trying the early reflections.

The source is just a short pulse with Zebra so it all sounds quite artificial. I imagine with a more acoustic and natural source this might sound better.

I automated the dry/wet as follows.






Ignoring the differences in tone etc which one do you think sounds "deeper" to your ears?

A (Cubase Revelation)
View attachment reverb-push-test-A.mp3


B (FF Pro-R)
View attachment reverb-push-test-B.mp3


C (MConvolution with the ER1 device)
View attachment reverb-push-test-C.mp3


D (R4)
View attachment reverb-push-test-D.mp3


E (Cubase Reverence with the Far Away presets)
View attachment reverb-push-test-E.mp3



I think I'd go with A.


----------



## liquidlino (Aug 5, 2022)

Pier said:


> I've been playing a bit with some of the reverbs I have basically trying the early reflections.
> 
> The source is just a short pulse with Zebra so it all sounds quite artificial. I imagine with a more acoustic and natural source this might sound better.
> 
> ...


On headphones. For me C was the only one that took the sound out of my head and felt like a room. Rest just felt like Haas with some reverb. Maybe try with a staccato trumpet or something?


----------



## Bee_Abney (Aug 5, 2022)

C sounds most natural to me, A sounds furthest away. I used speakers. And they all hurt my ears. Ouch! Maybe something about the frequencies combined with the hard attack.


----------



## Pier (Aug 5, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> And they all hurt my ears. Ouch!


Sorry about that...


----------



## Bee_Abney (Aug 5, 2022)

Pier said:


> Sorry about that...


I was surprised how sensitive my ears were to this particular sound (on my speakers, in my room). So it's not your fault!


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen (Aug 5, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> I was surprised how sensitive my ears were to this particular sound (on my speakers, in my room). So it's not your fault!


----------



## Pier (Aug 5, 2022)

I've added the reverbs used.

It's really a bad test. I'm ashamed of it and I'd delete it but I won't let my personal weaknesses interfere with science!

Now in all seriousness I've been trying with a snare and it's a completely different result. I will post some examples if your ears are not fried already


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## Bee_Abney (Aug 5, 2022)

Pier said:


> I've added the reverbs used.
> 
> It's really a bad test. I'm ashamed of it and I'd delete it but I won't let my personal weaknesses interfere with science!
> 
> Now in all seriousness I've been trying with a snare and it's a completely different result. I will post some examples if your ears are not fried already


Science, it’s a dirty and often humiliating business!

Or was that politics?


----------



## JSTube (Aug 5, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> Science, it’s a dirty and often humiliating business!
> 
> Or was that politics?


It's hard to tell; which one is less bought-out by corporate interests these days? (science or politics?)


----------



## Alchemedia (Aug 5, 2022)

Pier said:


> I won't let my personal weaknesses interfere with science!


“Wagner's music is better than it sounds.” --Bill Nye


----------



## JSTube (Aug 6, 2022)

I love MODO drum, but I hate its cymbals! So I need to be able to patch in my own cymbals (I have Addictive Drums which will have some much better ones, also dry).

*I needed to simulate the room mics for this amalgamated kit. Mverb hasn't disappointed!*

Here's some great pushing away I've been able to do with Mverb thus far, TOTALLY dry MODO kit:

When I bypass the FX the only other thing I'm using there is an EQ after Mverb. Towards the end I kick in an 1176-style compressor on the simulated rooms and you hear me mess with that level of wet/dry with the slammed room mics.

Does this sound "pushed away?" Simulated a 12m room so I used a 36ms predelay.

(maybe volume warning?) I couldn't tell you since I can't hear anymore!

Also note this example uses the MODO cymbals, I just did the proof-of-concept, I'll find which ones I like in AD at some later point. (and the HH didn't get the room treatement, oh well, doesn't matter because I only like the drums in MODO)


----------



## Tronam (Aug 6, 2022)

This is an intriguing discussion and I've often wondered about the various methods used to create depth by pushing instruments further back into the mix. I have the newer Eventide SP2016, but for science and curiosity sake I bought 2016 Stereo Room as well to see if there's any audible difference between them for this purpose.


----------



## Pier (Aug 6, 2022)

Tronam said:


> This is an intriguing discussion and I've often wondered about the various methods used to create depth by pushing instruments further back into the mix. I have the newer Eventide SP2016, but for science and curiosity sake I bought 2016 Stereo Room as well to see if there's any audible difference between them for this purpose.


How did you buy Stereo Room?

I doesn't seem to be available:









2016 Stereo Room


The Art of Reverb The 2016 Stereo Room reverb plug-in was crafted to simulate a great sounding ‘room’. Delay lengths, reflections, and other properties of … 2016 Stereo Room Read More




www.eventideaudio.com


----------



## Emanuel Fróes (Aug 7, 2022)

Pier said:


> I often hear sounds in music which do not feel in my face but rather pushed deeper. They just feel a bit more diffuse and behind the more upfront sound but do not necessarily have a reverb tail.
> 
> Do you know what I'm talking about?
> 
> ...


in Logic i use binaural panner. This affects the position and espace but not the reverb. 

You can also use MIR by Vsl, the “ultimate “ solution. I wait to buy after i get 128 ram, i dont believe it is efficient otherwise (?). 

There may be still some retro rudimentary solutions for this : pure mixing. Example: the violin is dry and close, so you record with the mic your speaker from your room. 

You can use a reverb but not as reverb, just selecting some features and muting others, like the reflections: increase size of the room and use the direct sound, for example available in Ir1 by Waves. 

And to bring closer you can eq the reverb frequences out and increase attack and detai of release somehow with upward compression (but i never tried this yet). I just find it logical.

And the most rudimentary of all: lower volume and higher frequency makes it more distant . 

Higher tones habe a more precise positioning, contrary to lower tones. These are essential elements of espacializations. For same reason here lays the secret of woodwinds, principally as solo discant voices.


----------



## JSTube (Aug 7, 2022)

Gosh darn. Had to buy Virtual Soundstage 2, despite all the reasons not to -- I just can't get the same kinds of results with anything else I've tried! It's kind of pricey for what it is, so I bought the single-room edition, as that room was the only one I really liked, anyway.

MVerb is great but it doesn't have an integrated multi-track UI to easily manage everything for like, a whole orchestra. eaReverb has one, but it's not as easy to use with a lot of different tracks (at least not on the demo, it only lets you edit the specific track you've opened the plugin for, unlike VSS2 where it doesn't really matter which instance you click because it's all synced to one main instance in all reality.

VSS2 is as far as I can tell, still the only dedicated ERs-only generator out there.

I can also confirm the _eaReverb does work on macOS 12_ (I'm running an M1) -- it's just not officially supported, or the demo works, at least.


----------



## Markus Kohlprath (Aug 7, 2022)

Pier said:


> How did you buy Stereo Room?
> 
> I doesn't seem to be available:
> 
> ...


I don't know exactly but it might be that you can choose Stereo room within the SP2016 as a profile. So the Stereo Room plugin might be integrated within SP2016.
I'm not sure about this, just an assumption. 
Cannot check it right now.


----------



## muk (Aug 7, 2022)

Just for reference, I wrote a little tutorial about one method to create a sense of depth with reverb. The good thing is you can apply this technique with any reverb of your liking:






Creating depth - one possible method tutorial


Hi everyone, Depth has always been a tricky one for me in the mixing stage. There are countless methods and tools you can use. Here is a very basic, simple one that works well for me. If you have some experience with mixing you probably already know this. But maybe it is useful for people who...




vi-control.net


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## Lionel Schmitt (Aug 7, 2022)

if its a mono source can do it. https://www.plugin-alliance.com/en/products/schoeps_mono_upmix.html

If its a prominent exposed line it may have to be used subtle since the effect doesn't sound quite natural at stronger settings


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## IFM (Aug 20, 2022)

JSTube said:


> Gosh darn. Had to buy Virtual Soundstage 2, despite all the reasons not to -- I just can't get the same kinds of results with anything else I've tried! It's kind of pricey for what it is, so I bought the single-room edition, as that room was the only one I really liked, anyway.
> 
> MVerb is great but it doesn't have an integrated multi-track UI to easily manage everything for like, a whole orchestra. eaReverb has one, but it's not as easy to use with a lot of different tracks (at least not on the demo, it only lets you edit the specific track you've opened the plugin for, unlike VSS2 where it doesn't really matter which instance you click because it's all synced to one main instance in all reality.
> 
> ...


I came here to ask about this same thing. Unfortunately, VSS2 hasn't had an update in eons and no response from the developer about Apple Silicon compatability. I understand it was made by one person but I'll really miss it. Will try to reach out again but not getting hopes up.


----------



## JSTube (Aug 20, 2022)

IFM said:


> I came here to ask about this same thing. Unfortunately, VSS2 hasn't had an update in eons and no response from the developer about Apple Silicon compatability. I understand it was made by one person but I'll really miss it. Will try to reach out again but not getting hopes up.


You don't need to worry about it. I'm running it on Apple Silicon. It works as long as you have Rosetta 2.

I'd just recommend getting it -- go for the one room version.

*I also emailed the developer, Gabriel Heinrich with no response. As have many others over the past several years on this forum.

It's kind of rude that nobody can get a word back from the developer. He doesn't mind leaving that payment processor up, but doesn't care about you, the customer -- evidently -- _at all_ !

I can't -- in forum searches across various websites -- even find a _single_ case of the guy in the last 6 years *actually getting back to somebody* -- and that's cruddy and _does_ reflect negatively on Gabriel as a developer.

*Really sorry that I had to give Gabriel Heinrich my money because he won't give anyone else his time of day, it seems. Not even a simple yes or no question or willingness to respond to an obsolesence statement! I encourage people to be on the lookout for a successor plugin to VSS2, this is unacceptable, but it's the only plugin that I actually like thus far for what it does. 

I really hope that guests browsing this thread via Google search results take this as a word of caution that the developer for VSS2 in 2022 is still actively *not engaging his customers in any way, shape, or form* (besides accepting their payments!)... and if that's important to you, then VSS2 isn't a good plugin for you, because you might buy it, it stop working, and then _you're_ SOL!


----------



## Kyle Preston (Aug 20, 2022)

Pier said:


> How did you buy Stereo Room?



I completely forgot what a pain in the ass it was to actually buy this damn plugin! I tried through Eventide, there was a demo bundle that included it, but you couldn't purchase it as a standalone (even tho the site said you could).



But.

That's what KVR is for, pretty sure that's where I purchased it


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## Noeticus (Aug 20, 2022)

So, is the famous "Stereo Room" unadulteratedly included in...









SP2016 Reverb


Reverb Time Machine The SP2016 was the first programmable effects box available on the market. It introduced the concept of the ‘plug-in’ to the pro … SP2016 Reverb Read More




www.eventideaudio.com


----------



## IFM (Aug 20, 2022)

JSTube said:


> You don't need to worry about it. I'm running it on Apple Silicon. It works as long as you have Rosetta 2.


My point was I won’t be running it it Rosetta. Cubase in Native mode is what I’m running most of the time. LPX sessions still work of course.


----------



## JSTube (Aug 20, 2022)

IFM said:


> My point was I won’t be running it it Rosetta. Cubase in Native mode is what I’m running most of the time. LPX sessions still work of course.


Ah. I don't know anything about Cubase. I do remember back when everything was switching from x86 to x86_64, that Reaper had a "reaper_host_x86" binary which hosted 32-bit only plugins for people running their daws in 64 bit.

10 years later, similarly -- Reaper running in native mode on Apple Silicon comes with -- *reaper_host_x86_64*! (I'm sure you still need Rosetta enabled for this, at any rate)

So I don't know if Cubase has this feature or not, to be able to host plugins of a different architecture. But I'm glad I can run VSS2 on Reaper-ARM!

I don't know what LPX is, either.

But if you really need to not use Rosetta 2 in any way, shape, or form, I'm not sure. Gabriel won't even reply to a customer email, lest he update his Xcode and recompile for a new architecture.. maybe one day I will become so annoyed by the situation, I'll make my own successor for VSS2. But I'd have to get a lot more annoyed than I currently am by it all for that to happen.

*P.S. -- WTH is this "VSS3" reverb from a different company? Damn that's annoying and confusing.. *


----------



## windspace (Aug 20, 2022)

This plug-in may not be the complete solution for you, but it sure might help.






Distance2 | Airwindows







www.airwindows.com





I have used it (and the original 'Distance') to good effect.


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## method1 (Aug 20, 2022)

Noeticus said:


> So, is the famous "Stereo Room" unadulteratedly included in...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen (Aug 20, 2022)

JSTube said:


> Ah. I don't know anything about Cubase. I do remember back when everything was switching from x86 to x86_64, that Reaper had a "reaper_host_x86" binary which hosted 32-bit only plugins for people running their daws in 64 bit.
> 
> 10 years later, similarly -- Reaper running in native mode on Apple Silicon comes with -- *reaper_host_x86_64*! (I'm sure you still need Rosetta enabled for this, at any rate)
> 
> ...


VSS3 is a reverb plugin from TC Electronic.

There’s also a VSS4 reverb from them.


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## JSTube (Aug 20, 2022)

but is it intending to be, a virtual sound stage as such? Is that even what the VSS in its name stands for? It looks like they have a positioning feature, but I don't know if it's to the degree as VSS2.

Are the two products related at all? does anyone know?


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen (Aug 20, 2022)

JSTube said:


> but is it intending to be, a virtual sound stage as such? Is that even what the VSS in its name stands for? It looks like they have a positioning feature, but I don't know if it's to the degree as VSS2.
> 
> Are the two products related at all? does anyone know?


VSS4 is just a normal reverb. I don’t know about VSS3.

They are not related to the positioning software “Virtual Sound Stage” (VSS)

It can be confusing!


----------



## Dewdman42 (Aug 22, 2022)

Pier said:


> Listen to this demo for Dear VR:
> 
> 
> 
> If you go to the last part of the video where he compares between dry/wet you can hear how shaker is pushed back very effectively. I don't think this can be accomplished with just EQ, delays, and regular reverb although I'd be happy to be proven wrong.




I'm planning to pickup dearVRPro with my forever29 voucher at PA.. $30. No brainer for what it does. I see this as a very flexible tool that not only pans in 3D but also can add ER's...(allegedly in smart ways depending on how you pan things). it has a wide variety of generic venues to use for the ER's. You don't have to produce binaural with it..you can produce 7.1.4 surround channels.. .(and then put dearVRMonitor on the master channel if you want to monitor in binaural. It can even do ambisonics..which is cute, but none of us are going to do that anyway. In any case for $30, I think its pretty cool mainly because if the fact its doing smart ER stuff on top of basic 3D panning.

Beat's orchestral mixing course is probably worth it, I am thinking about getting it actually. He provides a bunch of ER IR's, which could be use fun to do it manually...and learn what is going on.

VirtualSoundStage has always intrigued me, but I think its too expensive for what it is...and the author is MIA. 

MirPro3D is of course top shelf. You can slide the wet/dry slider all the way to the left full dry and basically it turns into a 3D panner without any room reverb. I'm actually not sure if it outputs ER's on the dry side when the rest of the tail is not there. Good question for Dietz...but that might be something to find out..unless of course you are just going to use MirPro3D's rooms anyway...and obviously they are fantastic and there is huge range of capability there. Its a fun sonic playground.

Nice thing about MirPro3D is that it does a bit more than just the 3D panning, it can do Width, direction, air absorption, etc.. Running it with the slider to the left is probably similar to using VirtualSoundStage I reckon.

I also have EarReverb and its interesting. I'd like to use it more and figure it out. It can definitely do some distance imaging...but you have absolute control over algorithmic ER's...which is interesting.....but WTF knows what the hell to do with that power? Not me. At least not yet. But its intriguing and ai think a highly controllably algorithmic ER generator...


----------



## Pier (Aug 23, 2022)

Here's another plugin which I think hasn't been mentioned before. It's Voxengo Spatifier.









Stereo-Widener Plugin, Mono-to-Stereo [VST, AU, AAX] - Spatifier - Voxengo


Audio effect plugin designed to spatially-enhance mono sounds and create the stereo, surround, and depth effects.




www.voxengo.com





It seems to be for mono signals though.

In the sound examples they have this distant guitar example.


----------



## vitocorleone123 (Aug 23, 2022)

Rolling off the highs and turning down the volume is usually the easiest method to push something back (if we’re excluding reverb and delay).

And then put something clear and sharp in front of it - the contrast will also help push that other stuff back.

The Visial Guide to Mixing book also has some possibly relevant info.


----------



## method1 (Aug 23, 2022)

If you guys ever do find a plugin that can push the sound away, let me know, I'd like to use it on my stepmother.


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## Bee_Abney (Aug 23, 2022)

method1 said:


> If you guys ever do find a plugin that can push the sound away, let me know, I'd like to use it on my stepmother.


Dial up the reverb really wet - or hire someone to do the wet work for you.


----------



## MLaudio (Aug 24, 2022)

Lo Pass Filter, Reverb, Delay, Volume and something that controls Stereo Width gets the job done. 

I do sound design for a gaming company here in Seattle and in the 10 years i have been here, i rarely have to reach out from the stock plugins Pro Tools offers.


----------



## ryst (Aug 24, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> Dial up the reverb really wet - or hire someone to do the wet work for you.


IOW, find someone who "paints houses".


----------



## Bee_Abney (Aug 24, 2022)

ryst said:


> IOW, find someone who "paints houses".


I do my own carpentry. Silly not to.


----------



## Bee_Abney (Sep 3, 2022)

This is a Waves video by Scott Jacoby talking about space in the track, and how that relates to your vision for the track. It is a little light on the technical side, but it does point to various Waves plugins and mic use that can help create a sense of depth. And you could of course use other plugins to get the same effects.

I don't know how naturally it comes to him, or if he's evolved the style specifically for teaching, but instead of speaking fast and throwing in pauses and ums. ers, ahs, he speak slowly and clearly. It's both annoying and very helpful at the same time!


----------



## Bee_Abney (Sep 30, 2022)

Russell Anderson said:


> gentle saturation and (near-0 attack) compression, reduced transients relative to the sustain and room tail impart depth. And reducing width, and bringing the close stuff even closer (and wider) is all I can really think of. I recently discovered doing small high shelf boosts in the side signal sounds a lot more 3D when done in linear phase. Dynamic width can also be interesting, making transients more or less wide in very small amounts can sometimes be very exciting or interesting.
> 
> Also the new Quantum 2772 is a great reverb for depth, or at least 3D-ness anyway. With most other reverbs I find I'm relying heavily on predelay and envelope for 3dness (and delays... everything I can do to tell the ear that the reverb isn't a flat diffuse sheet behind the source sound). I have a lot more control with CRP and it's still my go-to, but the 2772 works super well and super easily, and it just sounds more 3D in the tail. It is my second go-to now, I'd like to try them in combination but it might get hairy so I haven't bothered yet


I think that what you say about transients may be the easiest quick fix in many cases. Not for every sound. But I've recently found how effective reducing the transient can be just on it's own to reduce the impact, create a spacious sound with the relatively extended tail, and reduce the high frequencies, which are often front loaded: think of a cough - when 'voiced', the voiced part at the beginning can make it sound high pitched or low pitched. So, a woman's cough typically sounds higher than a man's cough even if the size and intensity is otherwise the same, due to the typical pitch difference.

The downside is that an exposed reshaped transient can sound very fake. So it definitely needs to be combined with other techniques. But shifting the relative volume of the transient and tail can really help a sound move forwards and backwards in virtual space.


----------



## Bee_Abney (Nov 9, 2022)

There is now a free version of Sound Particles' Air, called Air Music Edition which is specifically designed for creating depth in a mix.









Air | Music Edition


Air | Music Edition is the perfect plugin to quickly and realistically simulate the distance and placement of musical instruments in any mix.




soundparticles.com


----------



## unclecheeks (Nov 10, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> There is now a free version of Sound Particles' Air, called Air Music Edition which is specifically designed for creating depth in a mix.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Unless I missed something, isn't Air essentially just a low pass and hi shelf filter? Could macro up an eq and achieve similar effect it seems. 

For pushing super close/dry samples back in the mix, I've had good results with the re-amp module in Lifeline Expanse. With speaker bypassed, just adjusting the close and room mics. Slap a nice longer verb for a tail and it's not too shabby!


----------



## Bee_Abney (Nov 10, 2022)

unclecheeks said:


> Unless I missed something, isn't Air essentially just a low pass and hi shelf filter? Could macro up an eq and achieve similar effect it seems.
> 
> For pushing super close/dry samples back in the mix, I've had good results with the re-amp module in Lifeline Expanse. With speaker bypassed, just adjusting the close and room mics. Slap a nice longer verb for a tail and it's not too shabby!


If you believe Sound Particles, they have put in the research time to accurately match the high end loss from distance. The full version of Air also models temperature and humidity. Also, doing this with just any filter can lead to a more muted, indistinct sound. So you do have to be a little choosy. 

Of course, a music producer doesn't typically have to worry about this level of verisimilitude! But having the perfect filter for the job doesn't hurt.


----------



## Bee_Abney (Nov 10, 2022)

unclecheeks said:


> Unless I missed something, isn't Air essentially just a low pass and hi shelf filter? Could macro up an eq and achieve similar effect it seems.
> 
> For pushing super close/dry samples back in the mix, I've had good results with the re-amp module in Lifeline Expanse. With speaker bypassed, just adjusting the close and room mics. Slap a nice longer verb for a tail and it's not too shabby!


Also, that's a nice way of doing things. I'd only be concerned that the extra modelling of mics would colour the sound in ways that might not be wanted. Say, on strings or vocals. I'm impressed you can bypass the speaker but keep the mics, though.


----------



## Illico (Nov 10, 2022)

After some research, I'm plan to create a new template in Cubase 12 with 7.1.4 tracks.
Then I'll use the Dolby ATMOS Beds and Objects to create the space of my master Bus.
The Dolby ATMOS renderer (via AWS MediaConvert) will make the job to downmix to Stereo, Stereo Binaural or others format.


----------



## timprebble (Nov 10, 2022)

This is an interesting approach, mainly aimed at DX

BOOM-IT​Keep your dialogue moving!

• Recreate head movements and distance

• Transform studio takes into production sound

• Add liveliness to a dialogue track









Boom-it - HAL | Sounds & Stories


Keep your dialog moving!




www.hal-audio.com


----------



## Bee_Abney (Nov 10, 2022)

timprebble said:


> This is an interesting approach, mainly aimed at DX
> 
> BOOM-IT​Keep your dialogue moving!
> 
> ...


That looks fantastic. The video nicely illustrates what it can do as it transforms an extremely dry, processed sounding studio voiceover into a lavalier or boom mic recorded piece. And the distance demonstration, though very quick, sounded good too. It's hard to judge the quality perfectly from that video but it looks like a very interesting bit of kit.

So, it's not designed for music or even singing; but I bet it could work wonders with a monophonic instrument.


----------



## timprebble (Nov 10, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> So, it's not designed for music or even singing; but I bet it could work wonders with a monophonic instrument.


That was my thought too - would be fascinating to try it with close mic'd instruments and/or contact mic recordings (which have no proximity or acoustic per se)


----------



## Bee_Abney (Nov 10, 2022)

timprebble said:


> That was my thought too - would be fascinating to try it with close mic'd instruments and/or contact mic recordings (which have no proximity or acoustic per se)


There’s a free trial, so I’m going to want to give it a try when I have the time.


----------



## unclecheeks (Nov 10, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> Also, that's a nice way of doing things. I'd only be concerned that the extra modelling of mics would colour the sound in ways that might not be wanted. Say, on strings or vocals. I'm impressed you can bypass the speaker but keep the mics, though.


I don’t hear much coloration, if any. My guess is it’s using IRs sampled at various distances (you can hear some audio interruptions when you adjust the mic distances, seems like maybe it’s swapping IRs). Think the “room” mics go to 15m away or something. Anyway, works pretty well for pushing sounds out!


----------



## Bee_Abney (Nov 10, 2022)

unclecheeks said:


> I don’t hear much coloration, if any. My guess is it’s using IRs sampled at various distances (you can hear some audio interruptions when you adjust the mic distances, seems like maybe it’s swapping IRs). Think the “room” mics go to 15m away or something. Anyway, works pretty well for pushing sounds out!


That sounds great. I’ve used that sort of thing as part of amp sims, so a pretty transparent version sounds very appealing.


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## bfreepro (Nov 11, 2022)

Virtual sound stage 2.0, Sonible Proximity are the ones I use most for this. Also, adding two reverbs in a row, one as an insert and then one as a send, makes the instrument sound way more distant than just one reverb with the wet/dry turned all the way up. It just diffuses the sound more and sounds very convincing. I do this all the time especially with piano libs and it makes them sound perfect in the mix when just one reverb doesn’t do the trick


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## DJiLAND (Nov 11, 2022)

timprebble said:


> This is an interesting approach, mainly aimed at DX
> 
> BOOM-IT​Keep your dialogue moving!
> 
> ...


I work for game audio and it looks very useful. Fantastic plugin! Thanks for sharing.


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## doctoremmet (Nov 14, 2022)

A new contender?


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## emid (Nov 14, 2022)

Haven't gone through all posts but if not mentioned earlier, I remember there used to be a free plugin called Tokyo Dawn Lab's Proximity which I used extensively. It was made in conjunction with Vlad sound. I've just checked it's not available on their website but can be downloaded from this KVR link: LINK Proximity

Also Beat Kaufman made tremendous contribution on this subject. Worth reading!


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## psy dive (Nov 14, 2022)

emid said:


> I've just checked it's not available on their website



https://www.tokyodawn.net/proximity/ it is..


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## emid (Nov 14, 2022)

psy dive said:


> https://www.tokyodawn.net/proximity/ it is..


On my side I'm unable to download from TDR.


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## Bee_Abney (Nov 14, 2022)

emid said:


> On my side I'm unable to download from TDR.


I just tried and had the same problem. No download begins for Mac or Windows versions at Tokyo Dawn Labs site; but both links work at KVR.


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## psy dive (Nov 14, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> I just tried and had the same problem. No download begins for Mac or Windows versions at Tokyo Dawn Labs site; but both links work at KVR.





emid said:


> On my side I'm unable to download from TDR.


Oops haven't checked. Just google searched the page and thought it's just not accessible from the website itself. Sorry


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## psy dive (Nov 14, 2022)

The plugin seems super comprehensive. Sad it's no longer supported..


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## Bollen (Nov 14, 2022)

bfreepro said:


> Virtual sound stage 2.0, Sonible Proximity are the ones I use most for this. Also, adding two reverbs in a row, one as an insert and then one as a send, makes the instrument sound way more distant than just one reverb with the wet/dry turned all the way up. It just diffuses the sound more and sounds very convincing. I do this all the time especially with piano libs and it makes them sound perfect in the mix when just one reverb doesn’t do the trick


This is what I do, but I would love a more straightforward way of doing it i.e. just 1 plugin.



doctoremmet said:


> A new contender?


This is pretty cheap! Will have to perhaps download the demo and try it...🤔


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## Pier (Nov 14, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> A new contender?



They have audio demos on their website:









EXOVERB


Fuel your stereo productions with an immersive fingerprint and glue your mix with the most natural reverb. EXOVERB offers 50 true-to-life sounding acoustic scenes with unheard three-dimensional depth and width. Achieve cleaned-up stereo mixes with more space for your tracks.




www.dear-reality.com


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## vitocorleone123 (Nov 15, 2022)

Installed the demo (Win11 S1 Pro 6), added one instance of the plugin, and my CPU was pegged at 100% continuously.

Deleted the demo without ever being able to try it.

Not sad - I have lots of reverbs and only use a few.


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## Bollen (Nov 15, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Installed the demo (Win11 S1 Pro 6), added one instance of the plugin, and my CPU was pegged at 100% continuously.
> 
> Deleted the demo without ever being able to try it.
> 
> Not sad - I have lots of reverbs and only use a few.


But which one though? There's been a lot of different suggestions...


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## vitocorleone123 (Nov 15, 2022)

Bollen said:


> But which one though? There's been a lot of different suggestions...


Ah, sorry. I meant I’m happy with my current reverbs as stereo reverbs, not positional. I’m curious about positioning inside of space, but don’t need it. I should’ve been clear.


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## doctoremmet (Nov 15, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Ah, sorry. I meant I’m happy with my current reverbs as stereo reverbs, not positional. I’m curious about positioning inside of space, but don’t need it. I should’ve been clear.


Which reverb did you demo?


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## vitocorleone123 (Nov 15, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Which reverb did you demo?


I attempted to demo the new Dear Reality Exoverb.

I also failed to quote Pier's post with that info 😅


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## Dr.Quest (Nov 18, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> A new contender?



Trying it now. Sounds quite good.


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## Bee_Abney (Nov 19, 2022)

White Noise Studio has a review of Exoverb. He is particularly impressed by the short reverb for spatialisation. This is what I'd be particularly interested in too. Reverbs where you can't hear the reverb directly, but do hear the way it has changed and spatially placed the instrument.

I don't know if it is worth getting for those of us with DearVR Pro, which already has this function.


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