# Originality -- how much is it really valued these days?



## JohnG (Apr 20, 2020)

Hi guys,

The title speaks for itself. How much do you think "originality" is valued these days in music for media?

The analogy I think of is tomatoes. In the hierarchy of needs for tomatoes, "taste" once ranked high. More recently, however, the following are more important when growers select a type:

1. Uniform ripening time;
2. Uniform size;
3. Appealing colour;
4. Shelf-life/survival of transportation and distribution;

Similarly, it feels as though words like "artistry" and "originality" have slid down in importance, not only for media music, but in many cases, the medium itself (TV, movies, games). Yes, there are certainly outliers, but they are striking for their rarity and, moreover, most of them are quite low-budget affairs.

Instead, much of what I think I see coming across in big-budget world is playing it very safe -- the artistic analogue of the tomato's "uniform size and ripening time." I'm sure we can think of one or more outstanding exceptions even in large budget games and filmed entertainment but...

What do you think?


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## Terry93D (Apr 20, 2020)

So long as artistry does not die out completely, I am happy to watch things evolve. Certainly I wish that Williams- and Goldsmith-like styles were still in the vogue, certainly we have capable composers (Debbie Wiseman, Kevin Kaska, Joel McNeely among others), but nor would I wish to give up Steven Price's works for it.

Even back in the 60s and 70s and 80s there were probably many scores that were beloved and forgotten. We live after the filtering system has acted. 'Tis an imperfect and flawed system - where even to begin with unjustly forgotten classical composers! - but it is a reasonably effective system nonetheless. We all live in a time where we are inundated. In four decades, who knows? Some of the best will filter through. Some of the best will be unjustly forgotten. Some, beloved now, will decline into obscurity.

Please don't mistake me. By no means do I wish to say that the average quality has remained exactly the same. There has been a decline in quality. It is a decline, however, that I think is often exaggerated.


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## JJP (Apr 20, 2020)

Many films, TV shows, and video games are corporate endeavors these days. That means companies want quantifiable revenue projections before they green light a project. The easiest way to make those projections is by comparing a potential project to similar projects. If something is completely original it's harder to compare it to other projects, thus it's less likely to be approved because nobody can be sure what kind of money it will make.

A sequel on the other hand is an easy bet. "The last film did well with demographics A and B. Demographic C didn't do as well as we hoped. If we do the same thing again but punch up the C factor, we can reliably estimate we'll make X dollars. We already signed our lead actors to a 3-picture deal, so we know we have them and their costs locked in unless they die; and we have insurance to cover that possibility."


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## bachader (Apr 20, 2020)

Since we are talking about media music not the music in general, I think those who will value the artistry are the directors/producers who may or may not have the sufficient experience/knowledge in musical artistry. As JohnG pointed, they prefer to remain on the safe side by preferring the already tested musical approachs. I believe many of the creative results in media music history comes from the freedom given by the director to the composer, which is probably much rare nowadays. That freedom mostly comes from the trust of the director/producer due to friendship and the career of the composer (Leone/Morricone, Spielberg/Williams, Zemeckis/Silvestri etc.)
I think “how much it serves the purpose” will be valued the most not the quality or artistry.


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## purple (Apr 20, 2020)

What really is "originality", anyways?

But to answer your question directly, I think due to the sheer volume of media which is pumped out daily, it's not sustainable to expect the music industry to constantly pump out stuff that sounds "fresh" and "new". Of course there are people doing that, but the vast majority of media these days prioritizes efficiency and convenience over artistry. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. Cooking videos on youtube don't need a JW score.


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## cqd (Apr 20, 2020)

purple said:


> Cooking videos on youtube don't need a JW score.



I'd probably start watching youtube cookery videos if they were scored by JW..

action music as she added the tomatoes etc..


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## Consona (Apr 20, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Similarly, it feels as though words like "artistry" and "originality" have slid down in importance


Who ever cared about originality in arts? How is it possible we can say something is gothic, baroque, modern, whatever? Art is about trends and their gradual change. And what's this "original" anyway?

"Artistry" is another thing altogether though. What's considered artistry in our post-modern world wouldn't pass as art in the other ages. Even in ages with quite post-modernist thinkers who teached about pluralism, subjectivism, or even nihilism, there was always some emphasis, mainly from people who paid for the art of course, not only on what should be depicted, but also on the formal side of that artefact.

That's why statues from antiquity to basically the beginning of the 20th century look like how they look like, and not like some heap of twisted wires, for example.

The big revolution against the "classical artistry" were now so admired impressionists, who said, "f*** you with your demand of a specific form and f*** your galleries, I can paint however I want". Which was just that beginning the of 20th century when all these things started to emerge big time. Now, 120 years later, your can have some really shitty tangle of random colouful lines on a baking paper shown in a gallery as some high art. But that's the post-modern definition of "artistry", i.e. anything and everything is as valuable as a piece of art as anything else. a dead pig head on a pole maybe tells more about the world than Michelangelo's Pietà.....
We can agree or disagree with that but that's how it is nowadays. Like those impressionists thought all those skillfully made paintings of their era were stale and without any "art" in it. What would have their opinion on the pig head vs Pieta been I don't know, and maybe they were right about the academical painting of their time, but what we now got is, a modern/post-modern mess.

And as for music? The same thing. Just the other day I was at the local gallery when there was a vernissage, and there was a music piece played... and, without any exaggeration, it was more than 5 minutes of a bow screeching without any!!! melody or rhythm whatsoever. It took all of my willpower not to rush there and trample all over the player's f***ing cello. I think the crucial thing that stopped me was the fact I work there. Just couldn't f***ing believe someone commissioned, approved and payed for such crap.
Like ok, who am I to say what art is or is not, of course... but this is just a description of the current situation.

"Artistry"? What the f*** is that? Just a corpse of an emptied notion. No surprise anyone with a free sample pack full of low chuggy synths can score a tv show, of a movie or whatever. People f***ing clapped at the end of that gallery musical freakshow.


And we are speaking about "artistry" and "originality". I'd be f***ing glad if someone scoring for films could compose just 15 fricking minutes of a good Williams/Goldsmith totally clichéd pastiche, forget some lofty "artistry" or "originality". Don't get me wrong, we have people like Joel McNeely or John Debney, but why are not the lastest Star Trek, Rambo, Star Wars or whatever films composed by these people instead of the usual cringe we get? Who knows...
Now, more than ever, people with money just don't care or they just don't know. Shit, we are back to that "how is it possible the director and producers were ok having music like that in MI Fallout". 

I'm out.


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## Consona (Apr 20, 2020)

cqd said:


> I'd probably start watching youtube cookery videos if they were scored by JW..
> 
> action music as she added the tomatoes etc..


Just the other day I was listening to the Williams' disaster movie collection and there were these chill jazzy band tunes suited perfectly for some old-school cooking show, man, those chops you can learn from those pieces... Like that Star Wars cantina band music, people think it's just some silly funny shit, heh, have you tried to transcribe them and look under the surface? Some serious music writing business right there.


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## rgames (Apr 20, 2020)

I find it extremely difficult to define the term "originality" as applied to music in any genre. I also find it difficult to define the word "artistry". They're so subjective that any definition you try to apply can be easily discredited.

Instead I just say "I like it" or "I don't like it" or something in between based solely on subjective judgement.

When it comes to music I have enough knowledge and experience to be able to explain *why* I do or don't like a certain piece of music (most of the time). But, ultimately, it's still a subjective explanation. Contrast that against how I experience food - I'm not a foodie, so I can say I do or don't like some dish but I'm usually hard-pressed to explain why. But, in the end, it's still subjective.

I've met a lot of people who think that being able to explain why they like something means they can define "artistry" or "originiality" or "quality" but I think it's still, ultimately, a subjective decision without any kind of universal agreement behind it.

rgames


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## Iswhatitis (Apr 20, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> The title speaks for itself. How much do you think "originality" is valued these days in music for media?
> 
> ...


Because the big hedge funds run the major Hollywood studios, they want more me too iteration tentpole homogeneous blockbusters and less medium to small budget movies unless they are cheapo horror films than can return 10x-20x. So one movie looks and sounds like another as they want to crank out manufacturing plant duplication not artistic one offs. They want generic bars of soap not trend setting couture. The studio has their hands in the stew as fewer directors get final cut and more of them sell out to be hacks for a big payday. Also, prior to Covid19 the three big movie theater chains ⛓ have to answer again to Wall Street so they only wanna hear about the next big blockbuster slate so they can brag on their investor conference calls about what’s coming and stave off bankruptcy. Meanwhile, Netflix and Amazon Prime are cranking out much more original product, though most of it is junk and completely unoriginal as both newbies prefer quantity over quality as long as Hollywood A-listers sign up for more paydays. So the big money grab is what’s causing endless heaps of junk to pile up both the theaters and streaming plates. This is not gonna change. Hollywood loves to pat itself on the back declaring how artistic its choices are, but that’s no different then the alternate realities of showboat politicians who declare they are for the little guy average joe when we know better:









Millionaires receive $1.7m in coronavirus relief as most taxpayers get $1,200 payments thanks to hidden Republican loophole


As millions of Americans woke up to $1,200 checks in their bank accounts, some of the nation’s richest taxpayers learned they were also about to receive some relief — about $1.7m each, to be exact.Nearly 43,000 millionaires across the country would soon profit off a loophole adapted from the...




news.yahoo.com





I primarily blame this on sellout hack directors who would rather take a big check then hold out for more artistic choices and creative producers who frankly lack real creativity and jump on the Jaws meets Star Wars does Marvel is Shakespeare bvllshyt starring these three A-listers when pitching each project to a studio for financing. Nobody needs to read the script to get a yes, just show them a pile of credits and whoop whoop here’s your money 💰 Of course there is always the original genius of The Lobster🦞 and its wish it was as good sequel Killing of a Sacred Deer 🤢 but even in these cases they are so original you probably will puke it up 🤮 which is what the general public did. Hollywood has become more a theme park approach and next stop for the factory is Broadway 🎭

The other problems are this: Most actors cannot act, so if youve seen them in one performance you’ve probably seen them in all performances and in the same light the same composers keep cranking out their same ole score they did in that previous movie of theirs. So since the same few composers and actors keep getting all the gigs, these movies look and sound the same. Plus, too many producers and directors fall in love with some already been used temp track in other prior films and want some rip off sound alike cue making their movie just another plain donut 🍩

Think of Hollywood like a soap 🧼 factory 🏭 and one won’t be so disappointed by the lack of originality and endless assembly line of Dial soap bars 🧼 all floating down the river of capital so the few can continue to get rich while the many can go fvck themselves into obscurity!

For me personally, I just want to laugh and cry when I watch a movie 🎥 and always hope I can remember the melody line of the score when it’s over. Most stories have been told a billion times and I don’t need original orchestration, just a memorable melody 🎶


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## Thomas Kallweit (Apr 20, 2020)

I second what you wrote - just judging as a consument/spectator. Good tomatoe-analogy.
They want to stay safe.


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## JohnG (Apr 20, 2020)

I do think I'm seeing much more daring / risk taking projects on the small screen than the large.


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## Kyle Preston (Apr 20, 2020)

If we're framing things pragmatically, I think of _originality_ as the compound interest of media music.

We live in an era built from the aftermath of industrialization and all of its baggage. But, originality, whatever it actually is, will likely be the only thing that separates us from barcodes. If we're lucky, that compound interest will pay off while we're still alive .


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 20, 2020)

I ended up taking a job as the editor of a music technology magazine (Recording) after ten years of some success as a composer followed by temp jobs followed by success etc. - struggling. So listen to me at your peril.

But my feeling is that there are already lots of people who can sound like lots of people, so my goal is always to bring my unique point of view. I haven't always succeeded, but I do try.

That doesn't mean I don't also enjoy the challenge of writing source music and other soundalikes, in fact that's the name of my ASCAP publishing company - Derivative Music.


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## starpainter (Apr 21, 2020)

Well, isn't it about 'not giving a damn' and do your thing? That's what punk did, that's what grunge did, ... The thing here is though, in my itty bitty view, there isn't a huge lot of niches left that aren't squashed by the supermarket production houses. I mean, the very top, how many movie companies are really left? Is there really competition? Is there really one of the big ones that actually needs to battle for market share? If that is all out of the equation, there is really no need for them to reinvent themselves, to take chances, to go where noone has dared to go. They know what will bring in a buck.

The only time I see, hear, feel something new, it is from small production houses, working for TV, as in a small fiction series, one season, maybe 5 or 6 episodes.

Just my .5 cents, I know nothing really


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## dcoscina (Apr 21, 2020)

Games can be very good creative outlets as long as the develop is into it. I was able to write a track that channeled Bartok and Berg which I'd never have been able to do on a film.....ever.... unless it was for a horror genre but even then, nowadays everyone wants brass cluster stingers or low quarter tone gurgling....


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## Living Fossil (Apr 21, 2020)

Personally, I'm always concerned with quality, not with originality.
I think, originality is a byproduct of quality.
If you strive perfectioning your skills until you reach the point where threre is a direct connection between your craft and your soul, things get personal necessarily and thereby they will be "original".

But of course, the commercial aspect of the business wants "trademarks" and "signature sound" and a "personal style". What in most cases is a synonym for a tight horizon.


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## Michael Antrum (Apr 21, 2020)

I think if temp tracks were made illegal under pain of death, then a lot of media music would be much more varied......


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## Reid Rosefelt (Apr 21, 2020)

You are asking if originality is valued. 

Originality is everything. There has never been a lot of artists who have it and there never will be. 

Of course there are lots of people who get momentary attention and money, but that's a completely different thing. You can't be distracted by that. These judgments can only be made by the long eye of history and not by what's in vogue today.

And that's the only kind of value that matters. What endures over time.

You all know the names of the composers who matter to you. 

Now maybe you are asking if originality matters in the business today. 

This gets down to the philosophical question of why you make music. Just because clients might not be able to tell originality from canned cliches, doesn't mean that you won't.


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## Terry93D (Apr 21, 2020)

Terry93D said:


> Please don't mistake me. By no means do I wish to say that the average quality has remained exactly the same. There has been a decline in quality. It is a decline, however, that I think is often exaggerated.



I would add also that the decline could perhaps be compensated for if one considers the volume of mediums that have opened up since the Golden Age: Television music is in the midst of a golden age of its own. Videogame soundtracks, even beyond inventing an entire genre of music (chiptune!), are more diverse and interesting then ever before, and everything from modern cinematic to nostalgic chiptune to 16-bit throwback to classical pastiche to smooth jazz and more can be found underneath its roof. International soundtracks, be they film or television or anime, contain more hidden gems then ever before.


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## Gingerbread (Apr 21, 2020)

It depends what you mean by "originality." Some might interpret that as meaning "anything other than the trendy zimmer-esque style currently in vogue." But of course, if one is substituting that for a Neo-romantic Williams-esque style, that's not "original"; they're just replacing one well-used style for another.

True _originality_ in music is rare, whether for media or otherwise. And even more rarely is it appreciated in its time. It usually starts out just sounding like grating "noise" to most, and only later do people start hearing and understanding its musicality. So it's not surprising that very few directors or producers are enthusiastic about embracing it.


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## Michael Antrum (Apr 21, 2020)

We now live in an age where there is so much more media than there ever was before. You only have to look at the plethora of TV channels, and streaming services and other media with what appears to be limitless number of 'Box Sets'.

I can't help wondering if we have the same amount of butter, but are now scraping it over ever increasing amounts of sliced bread....


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## Gingerbread (Apr 21, 2020)

In most commercial media, the most "original" that things are ever allowed to get is "Very familiar, but with _one_ unusual element to give it a distinctive flair."


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## Dave Connor (Apr 21, 2020)

As JJP said, corporate concerns have ruled the day for quite some time in main stream films. Not that they haven't prior but certainly if you consider the artistry of actors/performers in old Hollywood you see the difference in dancing between {say} TOP HAT and LA LA LAND. The difference between world class dancers and those that really can't dance at all. Originality doesn't even enter in that case. This is part of the problem with number-crunchers running things instead of even some cigar chomping producer that understands what real talent is and is actually looking for originality. With millions on the line, corporations want a safe bet rather than gamble on originality. Not just in music but in every aspect. Notable exceptions are still out there though.


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## dgburns (Apr 21, 2020)

Hey @JohnG , what a great thread starter, and you are def one of the ppl that keep me coming back here for intelligent convo’s and insights.

Funny thing about contemplating originality is you can’t escape the script, the premise, the big picture. What you can do is make decisions about what matters to you. But careful, because those decisions can halt your progress if you ‘go in the wrong way’ if you run up against the grain on a project. Who gets to decide? Well not you, or me. But seems to me if you study the carreers of those who went far, they appear to have the ability to navigate the trenches rather well. 
Sometimes you get to imprint, sometimes you just know the project has a very defined trajectory, and all at once, you know what you need to do to get to the finish line. Creativity? Originality? A score that everyone on the team gets along with? that’s more the ideal it seems to me.
The trouble with originality is that it needs to be a combination of a little bit of what is familiar, and a little bit of something entirely new. Funny thing is, it has to be universally considered original for it to actually BE original. Otherwise it’s just niche. And niche is easily dismissed as fringe, therefore not relevant to the mainstream.
So who gets to be original, well someone who has a proven track record. Everyone else trying to be original is either labelled a maverick, or can fall victim to be considered too ‘out there’. For someone trying to have a career, you end up playing all over the map, playing catchup on styles and approaches that you never really master. Or you can go the other way an focus on your strengths which gets you a lot less work if it is out of vogue.
Every once in a while, you get the chance to open it up - the heavens open up a path for you to produce in a way that bucks the current trend, but catches the public’s imagination, and those are very nice moments to cherish. By knowing the rarity of the situation that created the opportunity for such creativity, and your ability to seize the situation for what it is, is a magical combination of factors that, maybe just maybe, gives you a shot at doing something original.

stay safe and healthy peeps


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## YaniDee (Apr 21, 2020)

Originality (in the past) resulted from musicians (and artists) having a standard (limited) set of instruments and colors to compose or paint with, which they blended and manipulated in "original" ways.. Now, with an unlimited range of sounds and "one finger nirvana" it somehow all sounds the same...I feel that music is now assembled rather than composed..


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 21, 2020)

Dave Connor said:


> With millions on the line, corporations want a safe bet rather than gamble on originality. Not just in music but in every aspect. Notable exceptions are still out there though.



That's a variation of what I'm saying - the blockbuster gigs are sewn up, so may as well go for the exceptions.

Two that stand out are Jeff Beale's music for House of Cards and Ramin Djawadi's music for Westworld - both of which happen to be my favorite shows in general.


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## Dave Connor (Apr 21, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> That's a variation of what I'm saying - the blockbuster gigs are sewn up, so may as well go for the exceptions.
> 
> Two that stand out are Jeff Beale's music for House of Cards and Ramin Djawadi's music for Westworld - both of which happen to be my favorite shows in general.


I was thinking of Djawadi actually. Been thinking of him lately because of “music rules” threads since he’s such a marvelous example of trained musician and rule breaker. Definitely an original.


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## dgburns (Apr 22, 2020)

@YaniDee , Apologies but to me, choice paralysis, or the paradox of choice as a creative block is not a valid excuse for the lack of originality. A lack of imagination is. And the lack of discipline to forcefully restrict your palette (which can lead to great joy in writing, imho).

@Dave Connor - I truly marvel at RD's career and output, what a great project history. I'm not one to seek to be a wet blanket, but his music themes, again - TO ME, make me feel like I have to get into his forced phrasing. They are always too long and, again to MY personal taste, ask a lot of the listener. 

Westworld MT theme is a good example - tedious is a word that comes to mind unfortunately. I find myself wanting to fast forward. RD's underscore, on the other hand, is actually quite varied sonically rich and resourceful. There's been a big evolution from an orchestral style (totally understandable being in the RC mindset and creative orbit) to a more organic and synth style. I'd like to hear a bit more street grit from the guy, but not sure he has it in him. WW sure is a dark production.

My personal thoughts, and not trying to start a debate, I'm just speaking from the heart.


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## Dave Connor (Apr 22, 2020)

dgburns said:


> @YaniDee , Apologies but to me, choice paralysis, or the paradox of choice as a creative block is not a valid excuse for the lack of originality. A lack of imagination is. And the lack of discipline to forcefully restrict your palette (which can lead to great joy in writing, imho).
> 
> @Dave Connor - I truly marvel at RD's career and output, what a great project history. I'm not one to seek to be a wet blanket, but his music themes, again - TO ME, make me feel like I have to get into his forced phrasing. They are always too long and, again to MY personal taste, ask a lot of the listener.
> 
> ...


I’m not familiar with Djawadi’s work on Westworld so I can’t comment on that. On Game of Thrones I found his thematic writing (not to mention score) easily puts him among the very best ever not only in film but beyond. I suppose I was too enthralled to catch any of the kind of weaknesses you mentioned but glaring musical problems will snap me out of anything. I _would_ catch when some of his more involved contrapuntal textures would sort of dissolve themselves ultimately but I also thought the sheer kinetics carried them through and even made them funky, modern and new. I don’t think the GOT title is one of genius works but of course I love it along with the rest of the planet. His variations on it were often brilliant and cleverly placed. If I had half his talent I might find fault somewhere but I don’t.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 22, 2020)

Dave Connor said:


> I’m not familiar with Djawadi’s work on Westworld



Oh man!

It's staggeringly brilliant. Huge themes - like what it means to be human. There's never been anything of this scope on television.

Sign up for a free HBO trial or something.

Oh, and Djawadi is really good too.


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## Dave Connor (Apr 22, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Oh man!
> 
> It's staggeringly brilliant. Huge themes - like what it means to be human. There's never been anything of this scope on television.
> 
> ...


Glad to know Nick! I caught a couple episodes way back but didn’t get hooked. I will revisit. Same with House of Cards. Don’t think I made it through the pilot.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 22, 2020)

Dave Connor said:


> Glad to know Nick! I caught a couple episodes way back but didn’t get hooked. I will revisit. Same with House of Cards. Don’t think I made it through the pilot.



Well, we're not all the same person.

But I do have the best taste in everything of anyone I know.


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## Dave Connor (Apr 22, 2020)

I liked Westworld! A lot. For whatever reason I didn’t stay with it. My brother (a brilliant screenwriter admired by many in this field) raves about Mad Men and... well... same thing. Don’t think I got past the pilot. I plan on going back to it - it must be great. Just one of those things and now you have me determined to go back to these shows!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 22, 2020)

Both those shows are worth it just for the music.

Jeff Beale's end title music in every episode of House of Cards is itself worth it.


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## SamC (May 7, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Both those shows are worth it just for the music.
> 
> Jeff Beale's end title music in every episode of House of Cards is itself worth it.



Jeff Beales work on House of Cards is so stunning. Some amazing forceful thriller cues and dark silky jazz moments. He created this “political noir” sound that is truly genius stuff.

For me, the two composers who consistently blow me away with their “originality” are Daniel Pemberton and Colin Stetson.

Stetson’s work on Hereditary is incredible. The fact he approaches it from a saxophonists point of view and knows wind instruments inside and out separates him. The textures he creates are scary and beautiful. It sounds “original” to me.

All these composers really commit and dive into the material. Having a great film to score is the best inspiration and being backed by filmmakers who are also taking a risk and putting themselves out there is a great teammate.

John Williams always said Spielberg makes very “musical films.” Great filmmakers recognise originality and have amazing rhythm in their own work.

Joel McNeely is a genius in my eyes, a tragically underused composer.


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