# Schubert has never sounded so awful before! :-)



## hbuus (Feb 14, 2009)

Starting pretty much from scratch learning how to make orchestral music on my pc with the Sonivox library and SIPS, here's the best I can do with a 1st violins section from a piece by Schubert:

http://www.box.net/shared/v6gnpfqe44

How do I make this sound good? o/~ 

What I've done so far is to vary the attack on the legato strings, which is what the controller lane at the bottom of the screen shot below is displaying:
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q206 ... iolins.jpg

That's all very well - it improves the sound compared to not varying the attack, I think.
But...it still sounds nothing like what you guys present on this forum. :? 
There is a minimum of reverb used.

I will be grateful for any constructive comments you might have.

Best regards,
Henrik


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## lux (Feb 14, 2009)

varyin attack is not improving but creating issues on your clip. Turn back the attacks to their original values. 

You can use volume automation to just give a raise to the very first note.


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## hbuus (Feb 14, 2009)

Ok, here's the same clip without the varying attack:

http://www.box.net/shared/bf0c4f6301

Hm, using volume automation to give a raise to the very first note - isn't that the same as increasing velocity on that note?

Another thing:

When listening to other people's work, I remember it sounds like they increase the release on the last note in a "row". I might try experimenting with that also, if you know what I mean.


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## lux (Feb 14, 2009)

hbuus @ Sat Feb 14 said:


> Hm, using volume automation to give a raise to the very first note - isn't that the same as increasing velocity on that note?



no, for rise i mean a bit of swell. 

This one sounds way better than the previous.


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## hbuus (Feb 14, 2009)

Ah ok, that way. I'll try that, but first here is another version using a patch where you can alternate between up and down bow:

http://www.box.net/shared/1ksq7tkeel

To me it sounds a bit more "fluent" than the previous version. In this bow-example, SIPS is not used. I will check if it makes a difference to add the script.

Thanks for listening and commenting, I appreciate it a lot.

Btw. I thought one "had" to vary the attack on strings to avoid having the music sound too much like computer music, if you know what I mean. But clearly, the first example where I did vary the attack, sounded really odd! However, when _does_ one vary the attack on strings? In the Sonivox string library it's programmed so you can easily adjust the attack, so I'm guessing it's widely used.


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## RiffWraith (Feb 14, 2009)

*R E V E R B ! ! ! ! !*

http://www.jeffreyhayat.com/shub.mp3

Also, try layering the shorter faster notes with some staccatto notes - just slightly to add a bit to it, but not much. This will help the attack.

Cheers.


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## hbuus (Feb 14, 2009)

RiffWraith @ Sat Feb 14 said:


> *R E V E R B ! ! ! ! !*



Hehehe! Well, a while back on this forum I was adviced to use a minimum of reverb until I got a better hang of using my library, since reverb can make it more difficult to spot bad passages in the music. I thought that was good advice, that's why there is hardly any reverb on this piece. But I will post a wet version also. Thanks for listening & commenting, Jeffrey.

In the following, staccato-notes are layered on the small notes.
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## Hannes_F (Feb 14, 2009)

Wow.

I promise you, if you do not learn to make your strings sing with very sparse or no reverb you will never learn it. Never in your life. Putting reverb sauce over it is the last step to plane the last few wrinkles but it does not deliver the structure.

Come on hbuus, don't be so lazy, shape the volume already. Lux knows exactly what he is talking about and why don't you follow his advice. And BTW messing with the release will not help you either.

Example coming in a minute.


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## JonFairhurst (Feb 14, 2009)

Hannes is right. Add shaping and manage the volume of each note. Also, don't be afraid of some overlap between notes. Right now, they sound separate, which makes them synthy. A bit of overlap makes the transition a bit messier, which is a cheap solution if the lib doesn't support legato.

One reason the reverb helps the sound, is that it's giving some artificial overlap between notes.

Don't add enough overlap to sound like reverb. Add just enough to make the playing more fluid. And only add it where legato is intended. Where there's no legato, you can add more separation between notes, or use a staccato patch.

The best solution is to get your controller set up so you can play the line live, and control CC11 for expression. (Some libs use CC1, the mod-wheel. Use whatever works.) If you get good at playing these things live and expressively, you will get a very good result quite quickly. But it takes practice. In general, you swell each note and quickly reduce the control during the transitions. The overlap (or non-overlap) between notes will eventually come naturally.

You can even do this in two passes. Record the playing on the first pass. Record CC11 on the second.

And don't be afraid to add a bit of reverb with this approach. If it's totally dry, you might get discouraged with the sterile sound. If it's a bit wet, you might feel more inspired and play more beautifully. But still check it out (at least somewhat) dry to see if there are any ugly moments that need fine tuning.

Best of luck.


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## hbuus (Feb 14, 2009)

Hannes & Jon, thanks for the advice, Jon, yours is very specific, I appreciate that a lot.

I did not fiddle with volume swells because doing so will take some experimenting on my part, and I'm too tired to do that tonight.

Adding a seperate track where the short notes got layered with staccato notes, and then applying some more reverb was something that I knew how to do quickly, that's why I did that earlier tonight.

I'm looking forward to experimenting with your advice tomorrow, when I am full of fresh energy again!

Hannes, looking forward to hearing your example.

Thanks again


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## bryla (Feb 14, 2009)

I never apply reverb, untill the programming is done. This helps me focus.


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## Hannes_F (Feb 14, 2009)

OK Henrik, here it is, first in a mix and then dry:

http://www.strings-on-demand.com/clients/hbuus_violins_3.mp3 (http://www.strings-on-demand.com/client ... lins_3.mp3)

These are SoniVox strings so you to have a reference to your version. In the mix however I helped the 16th legato notes a little with a sampled solo violin because else it sounded a little like crushed peas else (which maybe might be a general problem of the patch I chose) :wink: 

Here is what I did:

1. Recorded the line with a legato patch without using sliders or modwheel.
2. Fixed some velocities until it was halfway musical.
3. Recorded cc01 in a second take.
4. Copied the whole midi file into a second track for a staccato patch.
5. Fixed some velocities of the staccato patch.
6. Fixed some of the cc01 curve for the legato patch.
7. Bounced, applied some volume fixes.
7. Applied reverb.

The upper picture is the legato patch, the lower is the staccato patch.

HTH
Hannes


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## hbuus (Feb 15, 2009)

Hannes,

That is incredibly useful for me, thanks!
I haven't recorded anything yet, but after playing around with the 1st violins XF patch, I think I may have found out how to make it "sing"! I'm using the mod wheel from about 1/2 way up and then all the way up. When done right, this creates a nice swell in the sound, exactly as I have heard in so many other people's work here.

I'll experiment some more and then post something, probably later today.


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## hbuus (Feb 15, 2009)

I think I may be on the right track here:
http://www.box.net/shared/qhy6dd08ge

This is just a quick example, but the strings do sing here, don't they?  

I have found out that in order to make the strings sing when moving the mod wheel, the velocity has to be higher than it usually is when I play the keyboard. So this alone will take some getting used to on my part. On top of that comes, that I have to get the hang of moving the mod wheel while playing (and moving it more or less correctly, that is!) But never mind that, the important thing is that with your help, I think I have found out the basic principles behind making strings sound ok. That's huge for me!


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## Hannes_F (Feb 18, 2009)

hbuus @ Sun Feb 15 said:


> But never mind that, the important thing is that with your help, I think I have found out the basic principles behind making strings sound ok. That's huge for me!



Yes you are on the right track now!
This is why whenever some complain about how bad string libraries are in general ... others repeat religiously "but you need to ride the controls". Glad to see you on this side of the shore!


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## hbuus (Feb 19, 2009)

Thanks, HF! Yes, I've seen the expression ride the controls. Now I know what it means!

I'm wondering:

Is there a way to set minimum and maximum values for the modulation wheel?
That way it would be easier to make a good string swell.


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## hbuus (Feb 19, 2009)

Ah you set it with the %-slider in "mod" in Kontakt 3.

Had forgot about that! :oops: 

That's very smart. I tend to make large jumps with the mod wheel, if you know what I mean. Large spikes, so to speak. But then I simply adjust the %-slider downwards, and the string swell sounds better. Nice!


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## hbuus (Feb 19, 2009)

Here's a new version, now with both 1st and 2nd violins:

Wet: http://www.box.net/shared/drayyyvxei

Dryer: http://www.box.net/shared/g4uueh4p5c

I improvised here and there, so it does not follow the notes on the note sheet 100%.
I thought that was more fun, that's why. 

Again, constructive comments are welcome.
I think this is again a step in the right direction, but I'm curious to hear what you guys think.
It's actually quite fun to fiddle with CC #1 curves!


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## Hannes_F (Feb 19, 2009)

hbuus @ Thu Feb 19 said:


> It's actually quite fun to fiddle with CC #1 curves!



Now that you have the tool the rest is strongly dependent of personal conditions ... like taste, skill, background, personal preferences.

Music has that handcraft component which can be discussed and the musical/artistic component which is much more subjective. I could go on and on why I choose which amount of attack and volume at which note, so I would not say there are no rules concerning musicality. But it is good that you are having a different interpretation.


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## hbuus (Feb 19, 2009)

Hannes_F @ Thu Feb 19 said:


> I could go on and on why I choose which amount of attack and volume at which note, so I would not say there are no rules concerning musicality.



I am very interested in hearing more about this. It is interesting.
(And thanks for listening again.)

Are there some ground rules which you can describe?


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## hbuus (Feb 21, 2009)

Ok, please don't compare the following mp3 to Colin's demo with LASS! :shock:  

Anyway, I keep working on this.
The previous example did not sound so well to my ears the morning after I made it.
So I went back and adjusted things.
Furthermore, there is now a mix of up and down bow SI violin patches.
To my ears, this improves the sound.
The down bow has more bite in the attack than the up bow.
Therefore I have used the down bow where I thought a more aggressive attack was appropriate.

Here are the files:

Wet: http://www.box.net/shared/0j8labh661
Dry: http://www.box.net/shared/kul74jlana

What do you guys think?

Best regards,
Henrik



EDIT:

If you have the time, try to go back in this thread and listen once more to the mp3s I posted in the beginning.
Then compare them to this latest version.
There's a big difference!!
Because of the input from everybody here, I'm learning! o/~


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