# Audio Modeling SWAM Solo Strings V 3.0 Available from March 2021



## muziksculp (Jan 18, 2021)

Hi,

I just noticed some exciting news if you are a Physical Modeling Instrument fan.

*Audio Modeling* has just announced *SWAM Solo Strings V 3.0* will be available from March 2021.

They also have version 1.60 for their *SWAM Brass Instruments*, which is a free update.

I'm super excited about these updates, and would especially love to know that version 3.0 offers to their Solo Strings. You also get V 3.0 for free if you buy Version 2. now, I'm guessing version 3.0 will also be a free update to version 2.0 owners.

https://audiomodeling.com/

I'm also hoping that *Sample Modeling *which is the another popular developer of Physically Modelled Instruments, will have some interesting updates for their instruments in the near future.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## FireGS (Jan 18, 2021)

demos demos demos demos demos demos demos demos demos demos


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## Lee Blaske (Jan 18, 2021)

With the "Free upgrade if you purchase Strings V.2 now!" message, I'd guess that it'll be a paid update for previous buyers. But, we can hope.


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## muziksculp (Jan 18, 2021)

Lee Blaske said:


> With the "Free upgrade if you purchase Strings V.2 now!" message, I'd guess that it'll be a paid update for previous buyers. But, we can hope.


Yeah.. I'm curious to know if previous owners of SWAM Solo Strings V.2.0 need to pay to upgrade to V.30 ? If Yes, hopefully it's a minimal amount.


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## davidanthony (Jan 18, 2021)

Lee Blaske said:


> With the "Free upgrade if you purchase Strings V.2 now!" message, I'd guess that it'll be a paid update for previous buyers. But, we can hope.


I just bought them in November not realizing V3 was on the horizon until after I purchased. Would be so disappointed if it was a paid update... 



muziksculp said:


> I'm also hoping that *Sample Modeling* will have some interesting updates for their instruments in the near future.


You know these are separate companies, correct? Mentioning SM in a SWAM thread and using the same accent color may confuse novices who come across this thread. Or maybe it was just me, but I had a really hard time figuring out the difference between the two when I was researching modeled products last year.


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## mgnoatto (Jan 18, 2021)

I read some place it will be 75% off for owners of v2


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## pmcrockett (Jan 18, 2021)

I zoomed in on the image to see what info could be gleaned from the interface ... and it has flutter tongue, growl and breath noise knobs. Either it's a mockup or they've completely reinvented stringed instruments.


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## muziksculp (Jan 18, 2021)

davidanthony said:


> You know these are separate companies, correct? Mentioning SM in a SWAM thread and using the same accent color may confuse novices who come across this thread. Or maybe it was just me, but I had a really hard time figuring out the difference between the two when I was researching modeled products last year.


Sure, Sample Modeling and Audio Modeling are two different companies. 

I didn't mean to confuse anyone by mentioning Sample Modeling in an Audio Modeling thread/topic. Since both are specialized in Physically Modelled Instruments, I just informally wanted to also mention Sample Modeling, since I fancy both of these companies, and looking forward to see Sample Modeling release an Update as well. 

I can change the color of Sample Modeling in my post, and mention they are the a different developer, so novices won't get confused, and realize they are two different developers.


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## davidanthony (Jan 18, 2021)

mgnoatto said:


> I read some place it will be 75% off for owners of v2


That's decent, but still a hefty chunk of change for recent purchasers! Hopefully the pre-purchase grace period extends to last year.



pmcrockett said:


> Either it's a mockup or they've completely reinvented stringed instruments.


Good catch. This update was originally slated for January 2021, so I'd expect them to have an actual UX shot by now. Maybe they were just getting something done quickly for NAMM and used an older graphic based on the existing v3 interface.


muziksculp said:


> I can change the color of Sample Modeling in my post, and mention they are the a different developer, so novices won't get confused, and realize they are two different developers.


I think that would be helpful! I like and own products from both companies as well.


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## muziksculp (Jan 18, 2021)

Besides the new SWAM-S Solo Strings V-3.0 GUI design, which we still don't have a detailed pic of, I'm very curious to know what they improved, added, and enhanced in this version of the SWAM-S Solo Strings engine with regards to improved timbre editing/control, and other realtime performance parameters/controls, ..etc. 

I'm sure we will know more about it as we move closer to March.


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## muziksculp (Jan 22, 2021)




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## lychee (Jan 22, 2021)

In the demo it doesn't sound solo at all for the strings, does the SWAM finally manage the ensembles in a single plugin or do they hide all the other tracks in the song?
If it is finally the case for the ensembles, I feel that I could fall for the V3.


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## muziksculp (Jan 22, 2021)

lychee said:


> In the demo it doesn't sound solo at all for the strings, does the SWAM finally manage the ensembles in a single plugin or do they hide all the other tracks in the song?
> If it is finally the case for the ensembles, I feel that I could fall for the V3.


Yes, that's what I heard as well. Seems like they are able to emulate ensembles in Ver 3. Would love to know more about Ver. 3 and all the new features it offers.


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## FireGS (Jan 22, 2021)

muziksculp said:


>








....


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## shawnsingh (Jan 22, 2021)

From the cubase tracks in the video, it might be that they manually set up ensembles. I do hope ensembles can be part of v3, but even if it's not, I would find it hard to imagine that they won't eventually do it =)

EDIT: it was pointed out below that the video description says it used a strings ensemble layer from cubase in addition to the SWAM instruments...


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## muziksculp (Jan 22, 2021)

FireGS said:


> ....


What's that about ?


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## richhickey (Jan 22, 2021)

shawnsingh said:


> From the cubase tracks in the video, it might be that they manually set up ensembles. I do hope ensembles can be part of v3, but even if it's not, I would find it hard to imagine that they won't eventually do it =)


From the YT description:



> SWAM Strings: Violin, Viola, Cello are layered with a Strings ensemble instrument provided by Cubase.


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## muziksculp (Jan 22, 2021)

richhickey said:


> From the YT description:


Oh.. I missed that, so that explains why we hear ensemble strings.


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## muziksculp (Jan 22, 2021)

Note that the SWAM-S V3 Solo Strings shown in the video are very early alpha-versions. Most likely the reason why the solo strings were not exposed in the demo, and they layered it with an ensemble strings patch. But we got a better glimpse at the new GUI of ver. 3.0


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## FireGS (Jan 22, 2021)

Sounds incredibly synthy to me...


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## mdjohnson (Jan 22, 2021)

They updated their roadmap in their forum:

*January 2021: official release of SWAM Solo Brass for iOS, update 1.6.0 of SWAM Solo Brass for Desktop*
February 2021: SWAM Solo Strings v3 Beta Program
*March 2021: SWAM Solo Strings v3 for Desktop and iPad*
*June 2021: SWAM Solo Woodwinds v3 for Desktop and iPad*
2021: more partnerships
2021: more Camelot modules
2021: SWAM Ensembles
2022: SWAM "World" instruments
Also, additional details here:
https://audiomodeling.com/namm-believe-in-music-audio-modeling-news/


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## Markrs (Jan 22, 2021)

I love the idea of SWAM instruments, the idea that you don't need a huge hard drive or tons of ram. Some of the solo performances sound really good, but like others I would really want to be able to create ensembles.


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## Markrs (Jan 22, 2021)

mdjohnson said:


> They updated their roadmap in their forum:
> 
> *January 2021: official release of SWAM Solo Brass for iOS, update 1.6.0 of SWAM Solo Brass for Desktop*
> February 2021: SWAM Solo Strings v3 Beta Program
> ...


Love that they are rolling things out for iPad, plus anyone can sign up for the beta test and have a go at the libraries (I have the brass for iOS installed)


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## muziksculp (Jan 22, 2021)

mdjohnson said:


> 2021: SWAM Ensembles


Interesting. So, they might be developing String Ensembles as well.


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## muziksculp (Jan 22, 2021)

FireGS said:


> Sounds incredibly synthy to me...


Yes, I know what you mean, but their solo strings are not synthy sounding, actually when used as an ensemble they can sound super realistic. I wouldn't take this video too seriously, especially with regards to the strings, it has more of the brass sounds exposed anyways. Plus using a Cubase Ensemble patch, which I suspect being the synthy string sound you hear.


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## FireGS (Jan 22, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Yes, I know what you mean, but their solo strings are not synthy sounding, actually when used as an ensemble they can sound super realistic. I wouldn't take this video too seriously, especially with regards to the strings, it has more of the brass sounds exposed anyways. Plus using a Cubase Ensemble patch, which I suspect being the synthy string sound you hear.


May be. But the brass sounded unusually phasey, too.


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## krismiller1982 (Jan 22, 2021)

I bought the All In Bundle in Dec full price in hopes of getting the V3 strings upgrade free. Hopefully they throw people who bought all in bundle a bone...


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## aisch1212 (Jan 23, 2021)

I'm a huge fan of their physical modeling instruments but their marketing strategy is somewhat being misled. Almost every official performance of Audio Modeling products is VERY synthetic and unpleasant. It is almost impossible to believe they are doing best efforts to sale their products. And show off of so-called "Guest Artists"? seriously? They've made sounds of SWAM instruments into a low quality synthetic trash, which can be accomplished by any other programs.

The physical modeling should be a symbol of leading future tech of the music industry. However, Audio Modeling's goal to achieve with this wonderful possibility stays in late 20th and early 21th century, haunted by dreams that once couldn't be achieved 'cause of technological difficulties of the past.

I'm frustrated again by SWAM's terrible UIs. I expected to be better with SWAM strings V3 They seriously need to hire decent designers. It is just a prototype quality of the era when MS windows XP had come out, not a complete and modern stuff. The visual structure have no design identity. Shapes and colors of each element in the application are lost causes.


Even have I criticized Audio Modeling, their product can be extremely authentic and natural when being played by the right hand. Let alone strings, the beauty of sound can't be overcome by other VSTs like spitfire, cinematic studio, in my opinion. I wishes someday they can promise a good quality and a proper marketing method for their product.


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## muziksculp (Jan 23, 2021)

aisch1212 said:


> Even have I criticized Audio Modeling, their product can be extremely authentic and natural when being played by the right hand. Let alone strings, the beauty of sound can't be overcome by other VSTs like spitfire, cinematic studio, in my opinion. I wishes someday they can promise a good quality and a proper marketing method for their product.


Yes, I totally agree.


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## pmcrockett (Jan 23, 2021)

I've been doing some scripting this morning to supplement the SWAM strings, and I'm reminded how awkward the bow control is. The out of the box options are 1) automatic bow control with the expression bow gesture mode, which means you have to play non-legato to get rebowing; 2) bipolar, where you manually bow based on being above or below an expression value of 63, which is unusable on a breath controller; and 3) bowing mode, which bows based on the rate and direction of change in the expression value, which is cool, but doesn't support 14-bit controllers and lacks adequate range as a result.

The mode that I'd like to see -- and what I've scripted for myself -- is the normal expression bow gesture but with a bow change on every new note by default and a continued bow only when the pedal is depressed, with CCs/keyswitches to reset the bow position to up or down. If we don't see any development on this front with v3, I may get in touch with the devs and suggest it.


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## davidanthony (Jan 23, 2021)

pmcrockett said:


> The mode that I'd like to see -- and what I've scripted for myself -- is the normal expression bow gesture but with a bow change on every new note by default and a continued bow only when the pedal is depressed, with CCs/keyswitches to reset the bow position to up or down. If we don't see any development on this front with v3, I may get in touch with the devs and suggest it.


I reached out to them a while back to ask about Hi Res MIDI support and they confirmed it's coming in v3. Looking forward to using a LEAP controller for this!


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## muziksculp (Jan 23, 2021)

davidanthony said:


> I reached out to them a while back to ask about Hi Res MIDI support and they confirmed it's coming in v3. Looking forward to using a LEAP controller for this!


What is Hi Res MIDI support ? 

Is their current MIDI support LOW-Res ? What's the difference ?


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## davidanthony (Jan 23, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> What is Hi Res MIDI support ?
> 
> Is their current MIDI support LOW-Res ? What's the difference ?


The very short answer is instead of being limited to 128 steps in low-res midi, hi-res midi offers 16,384 steps, which allows for much finer control (or, in this case, a longer range to express the bow)


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## muziksculp (Jan 23, 2021)

davidanthony said:


> The very short answer is instead of being limited to 128 steps in low-res midi, hi-res midi offers 16,384 steps, which allows for much finer control (or, in this case, a longer range to express the bow)


OK. That would make a big difference. 

Thanks.


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## anjwilson (Jan 23, 2021)

pmcrockett said:


> I've been doing some scripting this morning to supplement the SWAM strings, and I'm reminded how awkward the bow control is. The out of the box options are 1) automatic bow control with the expression bow gesture mode, which means you have to play non-legato to get rebowing; 2) bipolar, where you manually bow based on being above or below an expression value of 63, which is unusable on a breath controller; and 3) bowing mode, which bows based on the rate and direction of change in the expression value, which is cool, but doesn't support 14-bit controllers and lacks adequate range as a result.
> 
> The mode that I'd like to see -- and what I've scripted for myself -- is the normal expression bow gesture but with a bow change on every new note by default and a continued bow only when the pedal is depressed, with CCs/keyswitches to reset the bow position to up or down. If we don't see any development on this front with v3, I may get in touch with the devs and suggest it.


I never found the non-legato playing while holding the sustain pedal to be a problem, but your proposed extra setting option to reverse that behavior would be nice.


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## Batrawi (Jan 25, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Interesting. So, they might be developing String Ensembles as well.


Not exactly I think. Probably stacking/randomization features in the engine to create ensembles out of existing solo instruments.


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## Fa (Jan 25, 2021)

aisch1212 said:


> I'm a huge fan of their physical modeling instruments but their marketing strategy is somewhat being misled. Almost every official performance of Audio Modeling products is VERY synthetic and unpleasant. It is almost impossible to believe they are doing best efforts to sale their products. And show off of so-called "Guest Artists"? seriously? They've made sounds of SWAM instruments into a low quality synthetic trash, which can be accomplished by any other programs.
> 
> The physical modeling should be a symbol of leading future tech of the music industry. However, Audio Modeling's goal to achieve with this wonderful possibility stays in late 20th and early 21th century, haunted by dreams that once couldn't be achieved 'cause of technological difficulties of the past.
> 
> ...


I had endless discussion on that topic in the past with the developers being friends of mine. It's a matter of taste and opinions on one side, and a more fair and understandable marketing and target choice:
- they had a little ambition of producing "as realistic as possible" sound engine for the instruments, but never as big as creating ideal expressive and playable synths for real time players and pop musicians. Realism is a task, but playability rules over it.

- the main users group don't care of extreme "classical and acoustic" realism, they care more of the expression and real-time control, compatibility with small and portable devices, bundling with keyboards and hardware systems etc. Their benchmark are synths and pop-production acoustics, not the classical or orchestral music sound, so often they can't really get the difference, or even instinctively prefer the synthy over the real sound due to the habits and application.

With this target and positioning in mind, their communication makes perfect sense, even if I often have the very same impression you have. That's also the opposite vision of the former distributors and co-developers SampleModeling, and that was the main reason for the 2 teams and companies to separate and become totally independent. SampleModeling is focusing on realism and acoustic sound instead, using samples and acoustic models instead of physical modeling syntesis.


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## DANIELE (Jan 25, 2021)

davidanthony said:


> The very short answer is instead of being limited to 128 steps in low-res midi, hi-res midi offers 16,384 steps, which allows for much finer control (or, in this case, a longer range to express the bow)



Then the problem will be to find an high-res midi controller. For example I hope that the Tec Breath controller devs will update it with high res midi support.
I think it should be only a matter of software in that case but I'm not fully sure.


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## aisch1212 (Jan 25, 2021)

DANIELE said:


> Then the problem will be to find an high-res midi controller. For example I hope that the Tec Breath controller devs will update it with high res midi support.
> I think it should be only a matter of software in that case but I'm not fully sure.


I suppose that is somehow impossible only by a software update. A typical device like TEC bbc2 which uses imu(for head rotations) and analog input(breath) should be initaially designed to support 14-bit data processing to output high resolution midi. The power of 14 bit processing requires a very highly fast ADC(analog to digital conv.) hardware to deliever reliable and noise-free breath data in short time for users to feel the device responsive and usable.

It is told that delay is less than 10ms, according to the Tecontrol user manual. But what is very uncomprehensible is the fact that even a single 8$ processing unit like arduino uno or nano can produce 10-bit midi data from a breath sensor in 0.1ms, while 7-bit is much less. Even being slowed by very low quality accerlometer, it should no exceed 2ms.

I don't think it is impossible to suspect they have put very slow components inside the device to reduce costs, which means 14-bit data processing can't be expected.

Anyway, my guess is that TEC products is targeted to produce 0 to 127(7-bit) or 0 to 1024(10-bit) data. And if the TEC's slow delay of 10ms is a result of an technical difficulty of the device, well, wating for a next-gen TEC breath controller or buying expensive and hi-res wind controller, including hb-1 is a best option.


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## aisch1212 (Jan 25, 2021)

Fa said:


> I had endless discussion on that topic in the past with the developers being friends of mine. It's a matter of taste and opinions on one side, and a more fair and understandable marketing and target choice:
> - they had a little ambition of producing "as realistic as possible" sound engine for the instruments, but never as big as creating ideal expressive and playable synths for real time players and pop musicians. Realism is a task, but playability rules over it.
> 
> - the main users group don't care of extreme "classical and acoustic" realism, they care more of the expression and real-time control, compatibility with small and portable devices, bundling with keyboards and hardware systems etc. Their benchmark are synths and pop-production acoustics, not the classical or orchestral music sound, so often they can't really get the difference, or even instinctively prefer the synthy over the real sound due to the habits and application.
> ...


Thanks you for giving me a very valuable information. I wasn't aware of their developing process. Now I think the origin of what I've talk about SWAM may be because my interest in the music has rooted from a classical area. 

In the website, it is mentioned that the one of Audio modeling's goal is to present naturalness of sound. So I thought they are still reaching the acoustic authenticity, not synty taste.
I guess it is up to myself to produce natural sounds from SWAM by setting my midi devices and plugins: limiting expression speed, etc.

Samplemodeling is great vst. It is natural for some cases than SWAM. But It lacks funtionalities SWAM can offer. However, if an absolute re-simulatuon of acoustic string is my goal, than spending more time with SM seems the good option.


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## Saxer (Jan 25, 2021)

DANIELE said:


> Then the problem will be to find an high-res midi controller.


Every pitch bend wheel is a high-res midi controller.
But I would love to see a high-res TEControl too!


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## Fa (Jan 25, 2021)

aisch1212 said:


> In the website, it is mentioned that the one of Audio modeling's goal is to present naturalness of sound. So I thought they are still reaching the acoustic authenticity, not synty taste.
> I guess it is up to myself to produce natural sounds from SWAM by setting my midi devices and plugins: limiting expression speed, etc.


Yes definitely their goal is the closest possible simulation of the real sound and physics. And they had great achievements.

The "synthy taste" comes in part from the technology actual limitations, and in big part from users and demo-makers attitude: "close, in your face, and compressed" if you pay attention is always the way their demos are mixed. That's obviously not the best way to expose the natural sound of an acoustic instrument if you aren't looking for pop, rock, fusion sound, in my very personal opinion.


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## DANIELE (Jan 25, 2021)

aisch1212 said:


> I suppose that is somehow impossible only by a software update. A typical device like TEC bbc2 which uses mpu(for head rotations) and analog input(breath) should be initaially designed to support 14-bit data processing to output high resolution midi. The power of 14 bit processing requires a very highly fast ADC(analog to digital conv.) hardware to deliever reliable and noise-free breath data in short time for users to feel the device responsive and usable.
> 
> It is told that delay is less than 10ms, according to the Tecontrol user manual. But what is very uncomprehensible is the fact that even a single 8$ processing unit like arduino uno or nano can produce 10-bit midi data from a breath sensor in 0.1ms, while 7-bit is much less. Even being slowed by very low quality mpu, it should no exceed 2ms.
> 
> ...



Just as I feared. Well then we really need some high res stuff from them but I think that unless the high res midi spread out in many other virtual instruments it doesn't worth the money both for the devs and the users.

Thank you for the explanation anyway, it makes sense.



Saxer said:


> Every pitch bend wheel is a high-res midi controller.
> But I would love to see a high-res TEControl too!


So I think I'll have to use the pitch weel alone for everything from now on. 

Kidding apart with the "incoming" midi 2.0 I don't know how much high res midi could take place. 

Anyway Reaper, for example, is already 14bit midi ready so now it is a matter of controllers.


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## DANIELE (Jan 25, 2021)

aisch1212 said:


> But It lacks funtionalities SWAM can offer.


This is because is sample based.


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## aisch1212 (Jan 25, 2021)

DANIELE said:


> This is because is sample based.


Yes, the sampling it is. Actually, I have a big faith on the future tech. I wish one day a secret of sound of musical instrument would be revealed so that we can benefit from the newly advancing physical modeling.


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## aisch1212 (Jan 25, 2021)

DANIELE said:


> Just as I feared. Well then we really need some high res stuff from them but I think that unless the high res midi spread out in many other virtual instruments it doesn't worth the money both for the devs and the users.
> 
> Thank you for the explanation anyway, it makes sense.
> 
> ...


You can actually make your own 14-bit breath controller that supports node and tilt sensing. And it costs under 40~70$. With a proper circuits, your own device can simply exceed performance and comfort of TEC BBC2 and hb-1.

I think breath controllers of today are somewhat overpriced, given the customers are very limited.


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## krismiller1982 (Jan 26, 2021)

aisch1212 said:


> You can actually make your own 14-bit breath controller that supports node and tilt sensing. And it costs under 40~70$. With a proper circuits, your own device can simply exceed performance and comfort of TEC BBC2 and hb-1.
> 
> I think breath controllers of today are somewhat overpriced, given the customers are very limited.


Care to share some links on DIY builds?


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## aisch1212 (Jan 26, 2021)

krismiller1982 said:


> Care to share some links on DIY builds?


There is no complete article about that. Posts on the internet lack major points like data processing speed and accuracy. You have to make your own circuit for the specific functionality. Anyway, when I'm done with designing it, I'm going to share it.


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## cauebravim (Jan 27, 2021)

I closed my eyes and bought it today (strings v2+v3). I made a bet, and hope it will fit my workflow with orchestral music. Playing it out of the box sounds a little synthetic, but I heard some well made demos that made me think is just a matter of get used to it and put some effort through programming and dealing with some of the midi cc values. A have a leap motion controller and I think its a good way of achieving more realism. 

I'm sure this was already posted here, but worth a second look:


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## richhickey (Jan 27, 2021)

Saxer said:


> Every pitch bend wheel is a high-res midi controller.
> But I would love to see a high-res TEControl too!


Every pitch wheel communicates via a MIDI message _capable of being high res_ (14-bit). Look at the data streams though and you will find some that do not transmit with high resolution (i.e. many steps over the range of movement) at all. E.g. I have a DSI Pro-2 here that does not generate more than one message per MSB, so 64 steps in each direction, even though it appears to have higher than 7-bit _precision_ (it uses 3 bits of the LSB), here slowing moving the pitch bend up:

Tick==== BO= ST D1 D2 CH Event
02F33B80 027 E0 20 65 01 Pitch Bend
02F343C0 02E E0 60 66 01 Pitch Bend
02F34B00 02A E0 20 68 01 Pitch Bend
02F35240 025 E0 60 69 01 Pitch Bend
02F35980 022 E0 30 6B 01 Pitch Bend
02F360C0 01D E0 70 6C 01 Pitch Bend
02F36700 013 E0 50 6E 01 Pitch Bend
02F36E40 00D E0 00 70 01 Pitch Bend
02F37480 000 E0 40 71 01 Pitch Bend
02F37980 02C E0 00 73 01 Pitch Bend

While MIDI supports 128 (D1) steps between 65..66..67, this wheel only sends one. Kinda crappy.


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## robgb (Feb 2, 2021)

So am I right in assuming that the free upgrade on the strings is only for people who buy Ver. 2 from January of this year? Does this mean loyal customers will have to pay for the upgrade? My upgrade from Ver. 1 to 2 was free, I believe, so I'm wondering if I've got this wrong.


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## robgb (Feb 2, 2021)

From the website: "The Upgrade for existing customers will be available in March with a 75% discount from the full price. The non-sale price of Solo Strings v3 will stay the same as Solo Strings v2." 

So it looks as if we'll have to pay about $30 a pop.


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## muziksculp (Feb 2, 2021)

robgb said:


> From the website: "The Upgrade for existing customers will be available in March with a 75% discount from the full price. The non-sale price of Solo Strings v3 will stay the same as Solo Strings v2."
> 
> So it looks as if we'll have to pay about $30 a pop.


Interesting. Thanks for the feedback. 

Where is this info. mentioned on their site ? I couldn't find it.


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## muziksculp (Feb 2, 2021)

I'm also curious if they will be updating their SWAM Solo Woodwinds in the near future ?


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## robgb (Feb 2, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Interesting. Thanks for the feedback.
> 
> Where is this info. mentioned on their site ? I couldn't find it.








NAMM, Believe in Music, Audio Modeling News | Audio Modeling







audiomodeling.com





Scroll down.


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## muziksculp (Feb 2, 2021)

robgb said:


> NAMM, Believe in Music, Audio Modeling News | Audio Modeling
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks. OK, I finally see it. Not the most logical place to find this info.

You would think they could have posted this info. on the SWAM-S Solo Strings product pages


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## Fleer (Feb 3, 2021)

iPad version (Brass)!


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## Wlad (Feb 3, 2021)

I pulled the trigger on SWAM Cello, spent a few hours with it today, and it is incredible, but far from perfect. With a little massaging it outperforms any sample library on the market. Playability is amazing for someone who is into live input. It lacks the dynamic range (sounds a little compressed for my taste), and I miss that lower frequency cello boominess that comes from the resonance properties of a cello's body. Chris Hein, for example, attacked this issue by providing ER of a body itself.

All in all, this is the future.


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## shawnsingh (Feb 3, 2021)

Do you mean ER early reflections or IR impulse response? Add I understand, SWAM does use IRs to represent the body. post EQ can help, and by the math of it, EQ immediately after an IR can be considered like part of the IR itself, or like you're sculpting the IR.

All that said, I still agree with you about the challenges. I'm planning to give mixing it a solid try once v3 comes out, and looking forward to hear others mixing experiments too.


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## mohsohsenshi (Feb 3, 2021)

cauebravim said:


> I closed my eyes and bought it today (strings v2+v3). I made a bet, and hope it will fit my workflow with orchestral music. Playing it out of the box sounds a little synthetic, but I heard some well made demos that made me think is just a matter of get used to it and put some effort through programming and dealing with some of the midi cc values. A have a leap motion controller and I think its a good way of achieving more realism.
> 
> I'm sure this was already posted here, but worth a second look:



“Some effort”... not really, it's a great amount of scaring effort.
If you check his channel, there is a live streaming video shows how his workflow is. He first played every part with leap motion and then spent 3-5 hours drawing each CCs manually to get a smooth result, for a piece within 3 mins. 
I once tried copied his workflow but ended up using these instruments as fist chair layered by samples libraries, so some of the synthetic sound can be hidden. Be ware that it may worth your time on a 8 bar's exposed solo, but not for a large orchestral music arrangement.


----------



## cauebravim (Feb 3, 2021)

mohsohsenshi said:


> “Some effort”... not really, it's a great amount of scaring effort.
> If you check his channel, there is a live streaming video shows how his workflow is. He first played every part with leap motion and then spent 3-5 hours drawing each CCs manually to get a smooth result, for a piece within 3 mins.
> I once tried copied his workflow but ended up using these instruments as fist chair layered by samples libraries, so some of the synthetic sound can be hidden. Be ware that it may worth your time on a 8 bar's exposed solo, but not for a large orchestral music arrangement.


I agree with every point! Just waiting v3 and hoping it will fit well (and realistcaly) in my mockups without this well pointed scary effort (since I use cubase, things get a little less scarier). I played Serenade III with leap motion in an Alien (1979) live scoring performance and people got really impressed. I'm thinking of using Swam in the next performance.


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## Noeticus (Feb 3, 2021)

I became a huge fan of SWAM Strings after I saw this video...

"Playing on Mari Samuelsen w/ SWAM Violin"


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## shawnsingh (Feb 3, 2021)

I mentioned in the infinite series thread, I really believe developer scripting on top of modeled instruments is a key that can bring them to the future. The scripting can infer a lot of MIDI automation details that would otherwise need to be programmed - from auto-divisi and auto-orchestration, to deciding which string to play to the type of legato transitions based on fingering simulation, as well as humanization elements. It can be done in a way that allows for style parameters to adjust the scripting as well as a way for users to override and control precisely when they really want, and all that combined should make a workflow that is just as easy as an articulation switching sample-based approach, or sometimes even better. =)


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## muziksculp (Feb 3, 2021)

I wonder if Audio Modeling have plans for updating their *SWAM Solo Woodwinds* ? 

Anyone know something about when, or if we will see a Woodwinds update this year ? 

They have announced *SWAM-S Strings V3.0* will be released in March, and their *SWAM Solo Brass Ver 1.6* after the Winter NAMM Show, I don't think they have released Brass ver. 1.6 yet. Maybe soon ?


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## clonewar (Feb 3, 2021)

.....nvm


----------



## aisch1212 (Feb 7, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I wonder if Audio Modeling have plans for updating their *SWAM Solo Woodwinds* ?
> 
> Anyone know something about when, or if we will see a Woodwinds update this year ?
> 
> They have announced *SWAM-S Strings V3.0* will be released in March, and their *SWAM Solo Brass Ver 1.6* after the Winter NAMM Show, I don't think they have released Brass ver. 1.6 yet. Maybe soon ?


The expected date is written in Audio Modeling's community forum. Woodwind V3 is comming this summer.


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## lychee (Feb 8, 2021)

Will Swam Ensemble Strings be a separate plugin or an update to V3?
That's the question I'm asking myself, and the answer to this question will depend on whether or not I entered the world of Audio Modeling.

Hopefully this will be the update, because it's rare to have an all-in-one library with some developers who love to split up any articulations for us to pay them off one by one.

I know developers need to eat and there is work behind it, but not everyone can afford to pay $ 1000 to have an entire orchestra.

In the case of the Swam, it would be silly to do that knowing that it is modeling and that in 2 or 3 manipulations we can make several solo sessions an ensemble.


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## muziksculp (Feb 8, 2021)

lychee said:


> Will Swam Ensemble Strings be a separate plugin or an update to V3?


We don't know, but if I had to guess, I would say the SWAM String Ensembles will be a separate Pugin.


----------



## muziksculp (Feb 8, 2021)

aisch1212 said:


> The expected date is written in Audio Modeling's community forum. Woodwind V3 is comming this summer.


From the AudioModeling Forums .

Quote : 

*"June 2021: SWAM Solo Woodwinds v3 for Desktop and iPad"*


----------



## aisch1212 (Feb 8, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> From the AudioModeling Forums .
> 
> Quote :
> 
> *"June 2021: SWAM Solo Woodwinds v3 for Desktop and iPad"*


Strings v3 was supposed to be released in the end of January but they changed it to March in the early Febuary. Same have happend to brass 1.5 and 1.6 releases. I believe the exact date is not reliable.


----------



## aisch1212 (Feb 8, 2021)

lychee said:


> Will Swam Ensemble Strings be a separate plugin or an update to V3?
> That's the question I'm asking myself, and the answer to this question will depend on whether or not I entered the world of Audio Modeling.
> 
> Hopefully this will be the update, because it's rare to have an all-in-one library with some developers who love to split up any articulations for us to pay them off one by one.
> ...


Audio Modeling insists they are corroborating with universities as for making the ensemble vst. It is likely to be released in the form of independent application other than this V3 update. Besides, they're planning to have it launched in the end of 2021, so i suppose it would be early 2022 actually.


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## Cinebient (Feb 11, 2021)

Since I saw the latest solo brass version I am now thinking about to save up to get the all-in-bundle maybe after they release v3 of their strings.
I am a sucker for physical modelling, own a Seaboard Rise and I wonder how these compare against things like Joshua Bell, Emotional, Bohemian and also against solo brass and woodwinds libraries.
As great as sampling is these days it always lacks in dynamics and nice timbre morphing, really expressive playing possibilities.
But from demos I am not sure yet since it seems just to shine if you really master them and maybe add at least a breath controller on top of an MPE midi controller.
You can buy now a single solo brass instrument for 20 dollar on iOS and I think its really great.
What do people (and I mean people which likes to play live instead of doing a lot midi editing and automation stuff) think about the latest SWAM. Can they really replace the better solo sample libraries?
For me physical modelling is the future (maybe a combination with sampling) but not sure if it is quite there. I mean for strings, brass and woodwinds.
Hit does Respiro compare to SWAM woodwinds?
It is a shame that I cannot buy single instruments on desktop (like in iOS) and there seems no demo, which makes no sense since you need no samples to download.


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## doctoremmet (Feb 11, 2021)

I don’t have either, but from what I’ve gathered I can say that Respiro does not really aim for woodwind realism, rather offers very nice synthetic but highly playable sounds, geared towards EWI / BC players. So I wouldn’t compare those with SWAM woodwinds. I have a couple of SWAM instruments in Roli Noize on IOS and I find them very playable. But that’s coming from someone who also rather enjoys the “synth patches containing wind samples” in Equator 2 (when played with my Seaboard).

From what I’ve heard you do recently with Plasmonic (which is amazing), you strike me as THE person who should be able to tweak the hell out of the Audio Modeling instruments, to be honest.


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## Cinebient (Feb 11, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> I don’t have either, but from what I’ve gathered I can say that Respiro does not really aim for woodwind realism, rather offers very nice synthetic but highly playable sounds, geared towards EWI / BC players. So I wouldn’t compare those with SWAM woodwinds. I have a couple of SWAM instruments in Roli Noize on IOS and I find them very playable. But that’s coming from someone who also rather enjoys the “synth patches containing wind samples” in Equator 2 (when played with my Seaboard).
> 
> From what I’ve heard you do recently with Plasmonic (which is amazing), you strike me as THE person who should be able to tweak the hell out of the Audio Modeling instruments, to be honest.


Thank you!
Yeah, Plasmonic is already on e of my all-time favourite audio tools and one thing I really like about it is that it really can create a very organic sound, even if you create unrealistic hybrids.
As a tweaker and hobby sound designer I wish there would be one kind of modular SWAM synth engine where I could create my own instruments and could f.e. create some kind of in-between brass instruments, woodwinds etc. 
But I know there are maybe 1000+ parameters existing and interacting in the background and SWAM focus is for emulations from real common acoustic instruments.
But still there seems to be a lot of parameters to tweak and change the timbre to taste.
A big part also might to add the right reverberation and spatialization since in real life there is no "dry" acoustic sound.
I just have Equator 1 and have some gripes about the Role roadmap and so I pass on v2 (or any Role hard- and software for the near future).
I might try one of the iOS solo brass instruments while they on intro sale to "demo" them. I heard they plan to release them for iPhone as well. I really like to use my iPhone 6s Plus which still has the (really great) 3D Touch. 
The thing is I am just a medium well player (or maybe not even medium) and so I am not sure yet if I could get the best out of it.
The SWAM inside Geoshred seems nice but too limited for my tweaker heart, the full SWAM iOS apps looks really great and seems to fit well on a touch screen as well. But I saw they also have a lot locked parameters which might be possible to open as IAP in the future (I guess to provide a cheaper entree price and to still have a point for the desktop versions).


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## doctoremmet (Feb 11, 2021)

You strike me as someone who really should dive deep into Reasonstudios Friktion. Now, I hear you on the Roli roadmap, and there may very well be some reasons (sorry) to not go the Reason route either. The subscription developments have kept me from getting it. But you and forum member @lychee do seem to share some common sound design principles, so I think you’d love Friktion. Have you heard his strings patches? I have also heard @Erik do some incredibly cool chamber music with it the other day.


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## Cinebient (Feb 11, 2021)

Is Friktion not bound to Reason and indeed I avoid everything subscription based. 
Only subscription for a music tool I ever used (and still) is for Kaleidoscope FX from Patchpool which is worth it for me since there is nothing else out there. 
Kaleidoscope indeed is also something I like. I mean its up to 512 tuned resonators and maybe the most powerful tool of this kind but really hard to tame and beyond my limited brain 
But its really good f.e. at transform a synth sound into something like organic strings from out of this world. 
I still think for specific emulations of real instruments SWAM ids the best out there (not for keys or plucked strings but brass, woodwinds and bowed strings).


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## doctoremmet (Feb 11, 2021)

Simon Stockhausen is a genius. Also, doesn't his subscription end at some point, and wouldn't you still own all of the presets up to that point? I've always thought it's more a rent-to-own type of deal? Also, sorry OP - let's get back on topic.  --> SWAM.


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## Cinebient (Feb 11, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Simon Stockhausen is a genius. Also, doesn't his subscription end at some point, and wouldn't you still own all of the presets up to that point? I've always thought it's more a rent-to-own type of deal? Also, sorry OP - let's get back on topic.  --> SWAM.


Yes, you still "own" all you got in a year. He seems also the only one providing new content for it. Its a very niche tool but really something i would miss now.
I always wanted to dive deeper into Reaktor core and create own stuff but that might be also beyond my capabilities and there is already a ton of good stuff available.
Yeah, back to SWAM....I would say it looks SWAM is still in a class of its own for what it does.
Dreaming about if Audio Modelling one day create a physical modelling synth to tweak whatever I want.
I just get a bit tired of sample libraries. If yous reach for a specific articulation they are great but I never really are happy with them in one or the other way in terms of expression.
But still I am not sure if I ever could get all the 50+ (or even 70+) articulations from some of the better solo strings f.e.
I will See how v3 will be since the strings demos I heard are not yet there for me and I did not like really what I heard about the woodwinds (but I think they also get a major update this year maybe). 
But the latest version of their solo bras is really great and finally a nice GUI for my taste.
Another big plus for me as Mac (M1 MacBook Pro right now) and iOS user (I prefer the iPhone over an iPad here) that they seems to plan to release everything for iOS as well.
The bad part, it looks like I would have to buy it twice. Others offer f.e. free iOS version if you own the desktop part. Maybe I could run the iOS app on my M1 Mac but that is not really what I want.


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## DANIELE (Feb 11, 2021)

Cinebient said:


> Yeah, Plasmonic is already on e of my all-time favourite audio tools and one thing I really like about it is that it really can create a very organic sound, even if you create unrealistic hybrids.


I didn't know about this, interesting, is there a dedicated thread to ask some questions there?


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## doctoremmet (Feb 11, 2021)

DANIELE said:


> I didn't know about this, interesting, is there a dedicated thread to ask some questions there?


There is a thread on here, but the more interactive one is on FB (unfortunately haha). Also: the creator of this synth is very approachable. He has been very kind in helping me with some beginner questions. He’s Brian Clevinger, the legend that created Absynth. @Whywhy has created some great patches as well.









KVR Forum: PLASMONIC - A new synth from Brian Clevinger - Instruments Forum


KVR Audio Forum - PLASMONIC - A new synth from Brian Clevinger - Instruments Forum




www.kvraudio.com


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## DANIELE (Feb 11, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> There is a thread on here, but the more interactive one is on FB (unfortunately haha). Also: the creator of this synth is very approachable. He has been very kind in helping me with some beginner questions. He’s Brian Clevinger, the legend that created Absynth. @Whywhy has created some great patches as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh ok, I must subscribe to KVR then, there are a very few videos about this synth on YouTube. Sorry for the OT and thank you for the answer.


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## topaz (Mar 1, 2021)

It's march.  intro sale due ?


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## muziksculp (Mar 1, 2021)

Yes, it's March.  

Hopefully SWAM-S Solo Strings Ver. 3 will be available soon.


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## shawnsingh (Mar 1, 2021)

-- _furiously applies rosin to MIDI keyboard_ --


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## muziksculp (Mar 1, 2021)

I'm guessing they meant SWAM-S Solo Strings V.3 will be available in March, they didn't mention March 1st. 

So, we just have to wait.


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## DANIELE (Mar 1, 2021)

March 32th...

I know, I already made this joke.


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## topaz (Mar 1, 2021)

I wonder if they will do a sale on launch. hmm.


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## topaz (Mar 2, 2021)

Did anyone get a chance to compare the IOS version to the desktop yet ?


----------



## krismiller1982 (Mar 3, 2021)

Waiting..........................


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## Drakfrukten (Mar 3, 2021)

new email update, first section


> *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Niowiad (Mar 3, 2021)

They just sent an email saying it will be released by the end of the month, with several other interesting details.

And according to the email, the 75% discount for existing owners is on individual instruments, with no mention of the "Solo String Bundle".

I assumed I'd be able to upgrade for 90€ (25% of 360€, the Solo String Bundle pricetag).
But instead it looks like it's going to be 120€ (25% of the four individual instrument).


*Editing this post on March 15*, as the latest email update clarifies the 75% discount is also applied to the entire bundle, so it's effectively going to be 90€ as I hoped.


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## DANIELE (Mar 3, 2021)

I received that mail too. They say that they reached a unparalleled realism with modeled instruments, they exactly say that "*The kind of control and realism our Solo Strings offer have never been heard before in modeled instruments!*".

Let's hope they truly reached a great result soundwise. It's a pity we still have to wait for the ensembles. Anyway lot of incoming exciting libraries or library updates this year. I hope that by the end of this year I will have the full orchestra of my dreams.


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## muziksculp (Mar 3, 2021)

Niowiad said:


> They just sent an email saying it will be released by the end of the month, with several other interesting details.
> 
> And according to the email, the 75% discount for existing owners is on individual instruments, with no mention of the "Solo String Bundle".
> 
> ...


Very interesting. 

I haven't received that email from Audio Modeling yet. I wonder what they have up their sleeves. 

End of the month means a longer wait than I was expecting, Oh well, I guess we just have to wait.


----------



## DANIELE (Mar 3, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Very interesting.
> 
> I haven't received that email from Audio Modeling yet. I wonder what they have up their sleeves.
> 
> End of the month means a longer wait than I was expecting, Oh well, I guess we just have to wait.


----------



## muziksculp (Mar 4, 2021)

DANIELE said:


>



LOL... That's exactly how I felt.


----------



## lychee (Mar 6, 2021)

I thought it would be nice to have hard material specifically for playing complex instruments such as AM's virtual strings.
After all, we have many wind instruments like the AKAI EWI, so why not an electronic violin?
Then I came across this video of a guy who found an interesting solution, mixing a Sensel with an E-Guitar:


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## mohsohsenshi (Mar 6, 2021)

lychee said:


> I thought it would be nice to have hard material specifically for playing complex instruments such as AM's virtual strings.
> After all, we have many wind instruments like the AKAI EWI, so why not an electronic violin?
> Then I came across this video of a guy who found an interesting solution, mixing a Sensel with an E-Guitar:



Check something like "arché violin" or the midi violin controller

The problem is while I am a good violinist, why not go straight ahead recording my solo string part with microphone instead of using samples.


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## Bollen (Mar 6, 2021)

Drakfrukten said:


> *More realistic Legatos*


That's interesting, the legatos are precisely the reason why I've not been sold on these. Looking forward to hearing the improvement....


----------



## Nuri (Mar 7, 2021)

davidanthony said:


> I just bought them in November not realizing V3 was on the horizon until after I purchased. Would be so disappointed if it was a paid update...


I realise the upgrade from V2 is cheapish but I still feel ripped off. I bought the whole kaboodle for over $1500 in November too. After asking their support what the grace period for free upgrades was, this is the response I got:

_it depends on what you mean by "recent".
We launched the promotion on January 18th, 2021, when we announced the release of Solo Strings v3 at the NAMM Believe In Music Week.
Unfortunately, you are not eligible for a free update to Solo Strings v3, as I see you purchased back in November._

..."back" in November?  I replied with the following but they didn't even reply!

_I normally see a few months grace for such purchases.
From Nov 27 to January 28 is just over 7 weeks.
What would you consider recent enough for a free upgrade?_


----------



## Fizzlewig (Mar 8, 2021)

I purchased the whole complete bundle in November, I too feel like this is taking the %iss tbh.


----------



## Marc555 (Mar 8, 2021)

mohsohsenshi said:


> “Some effort”... not really, it's a great amount of scaring effort.
> If you check his channel, there is a live streaming video shows how his workflow is. He first played every part with leap motion and then spent 3-5 hours drawing each CCs manually to get a smooth result, for a piece within 3 mins.
> I once tried copied his workflow but ended up using these instruments as fist chair layered by samples libraries, so some of the synthetic sound can be hidden. Be ware that it may worth your time on a 8 bar's exposed solo, but not for a large orchestral music arrangement.


AI required.


----------



## X-Bassist (Mar 8, 2021)

Wlad said:


> I pulled the trigger on SWAM Cello, spent a few hours with it today, and it is incredible, but far from perfect. With a little massaging it outperforms any sample library on the market. Playability is amazing for someone who is into live input. It lacks the dynamic range (sounds a little compressed for my taste), and I miss that lower frequency cello boominess that comes from the resonance properties of a cello's body. Chris Hein, for example, attacked this issue by providing ER of a body itself.
> 
> All in all, this is the future.


I like and use my Swam saxes all the time, but the strings sound synthy in every video I’ve watched. I’m waiting to hear a realistic demo that has transitions between notes that I can believe. I realise these are exposed and not in a mix, but my experience with mixing strings is a synthy sound always comes through. This video (the first on their website) is a perfect example.



Let me know if I’m wrong, I’d love to be wrong.

But I do believe once they work these sound issues out, it is the future. Thanks for your enthusiasm. I may have to wait a few years more. 😊


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## muziksculp (Mar 8, 2021)

X-Bassist said:


> I like and use my Swam saxes all the time, but the strings sound synthy in every video I’ve watched. I’m waiting to hear a realistic demo that has transitions between notes that I can believe. I realise these are exposed and not in a mix, but my experience with mixing strings is a synthy sound always comes through. This video (the first on their website) is a perfect example.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I wouldn't judge their SWAM-S Solo Strings based on this video performance. They can sound so much more realistic.


----------



## mohsohsenshi (Mar 8, 2021)

X-Bassist said:


> I like and use my Swam saxes all the time, but the strings sound synthy in every video I’ve watched. I’m waiting to hear a realistic demo that has transitions between notes that I can believe. I realise these are exposed and not in a mix, but my experience with mixing strings is a synthy sound always comes through. This video (the first on their website) is a perfect example.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Two of my favourite demos of always:

Though his dynamic control sounds like wind instrument (due to the fact that he used breath to control the expression), this demo shows that Swam strings can be far away from "synthy":


Tachibana's demo, an ethnic string like sound, she drew notes and CCs instead of playing them with keyboard and controller:


----------



## muziksculp (Mar 8, 2021)

My favorite videos of SWAM-S Solo Strings.


----------



## Markrs (Mar 8, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> My favorite videos of SWAM-S Solo Strings.



These are all excellent. What blows me away is that he didn't do much to get the strings to sound great on the Piccolo Trumpet video. I believe he said he basically just used downloaded midi.


----------



## Polkasound (Mar 8, 2021)

Nuri said:


> I realise the upgrade from V2 is cheapish but I still feel ripped off. I bought the whole kaboodle for over $1500 in November too.





Fizzlewig said:


> I purchased the whole complete bundle in November, I too feel like this is taking the %iss tbh.


Try looking at it from this perspective: The free update is not intended as a bonus to existing strings owners so much as it is a sales pitch to sell their strings to new customers. I assume all new customers since January 18th have been paying full price for SWAM Solo Strings in order to get the free V3 update. If you bought the strings during last year's Black Friday Sale, the money you saved will offset the cost of the upgrade.


----------



## muziksculp (Mar 8, 2021)

Markrs said:


> These are all excellent. What blows me away is that he didn't do much to get the strings to sound great on the Piccolo Trumpet video. I believe he said he basically just used downloaded midi.


Wow. That's very interesting. 

Thanks.


----------



## Wlad (Mar 8, 2021)

X-Bassist said:


> I like and use my Swam saxes all the time, but the strings sound synthy in every video I’ve watched. I’m waiting to hear a realistic demo that has transitions between notes that I can believe. I realise these are exposed and not in a mix, but my experience with mixing strings is a synthy sound always comes through. This video (the first on their website) is a perfect example.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As I own only the SWAM Cello, I'm not able to comment on other instruments. I would not judge this instrument based on live performance videos unless you intend to use it for live performance only. With a little massaging you can get pretty realistic results, and with some EQing and reverb take it to a different level.


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## Markrs (Mar 8, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Wow. That's very interesting.
> 
> Thanks.


Below is his description of creating the string section for that performance. It is a bit more than just putting the midi in as he used Cubase to humanise it.





__





Audio Modeling Solo Brass "Piccolo Trumpet" test


hello to all friends of VI Control I post this video with a demo made with SWAM Solo Brass "Little Trumpet" ALPHA release. With the exception of the trumpet, on which I used an EQ to imitate the sound of the talented Alison Balsom as much as possible, everything else comes out flat from...




vi-control.net


----------



## Lazer42 (Mar 8, 2021)

X-Bassist said:


> I like and use my Swam saxes all the time, but the strings sound synthy in every video I’ve watched. I’m waiting to hear a realistic demo that has transitions between notes that I can believe. I realise these are exposed and not in a mix, but my experience with mixing strings is a synthy sound always comes through. This video (the first on their website) is a perfect example.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The performances in the videos on their website do sound synthy to me, and I think at least part of it is how often, and in what generally unrealistic situations, portamento is used. 

However, some of the performances I have found elsewhere have been by far the most convincing strings I've ever heard.


----------



## ManOn1st (Mar 8, 2021)

Funny how conversations like this about whether a library sounds authentic tend to ignore the most important opinion holder - the audience! Not a critique on this conversation, just an observation across many threads I read like this. We musicians and composers tend to live in a great little (fun) bubble and have these intense debates about realism. I wonder what our audience thinks? After all, music is a form of communication, right? Who are we making music for? What do _they_ think - the 99.9% (I hope I'm exaggerating here) of the population who are barely musically literate? Can _they _hear the difference between a $16 million Stradivarius and a SWAM violin (or any library for that matter), if both were played blindly for them? And if we told them the difference, or if they _could_ hear the difference, would they _prefer_ the sound of the $16 million Stradivarius over a VST? Hmmm...

I'm a pianist and I would love to think that the average person would be able to hear the difference between my Mason & Hamlin grand (that I paid a pretty penny for) and a Pianoteq or Keyscapes emulation of a grand piano. _I _can tell the difference but can _they_? And again, if they were told the difference, would they _prefer_ the Mason & Hamlin sound? Today's music consumer has probably grown up listening to piano and violin emulations more than they do real pianos and violins! In that case, they may dislike my Mason & Hamlin and the Stradivarius because, _to them,_ it doesn't fit what they _perceive_ as a piano or violin sound (they may actually prefer a "synthy" VST!). And their ears are the ones we need to concern ourselves with, right? Not ours! True story: I was listening to a recording by the LSO the other day on Apple Music (I'm studying composition) and I remember thinking, "Man this string section sounds so damn synthy!", almost unbearable, like a Casio keyboard from the 1980s! But then I remembered that I was listening to real, professional violins, lol! Not the whole performance, but in spots. Who knows, maybe I'm not as musically literate as I thought! But I digress. 

Bringing it back to topic, I'm looking forward to both SWAM and Infinite Strings this month and will buy them both. It seems either should be good enough for the 99.99% of the world's listeners, many of whom can't even find middle C on a piano. (Again, I'm being facetious, I hope, with the exaggerated percentages, but you get my point).

Which is your audience? Can they hear the differences? _We_ obviously do, but, honestly, do _they_? And if they do hear the difference, do they prefer the real thing or the emulation?

I'll crawl back into my lurker cave now. That is all.


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## muziksculp (Mar 8, 2021)

ManOn1st said:


> Funny how conversations like this about whether a library sounds authentic tend to ignore the most important opinion holder - the audience! Not a critique on this conversation, just an observation across many threads I read like this. We musicians and composers tend to live in a great little (fun) bubble and have these intense debates about realism. I wonder what our audience thinks? After all, music is a form of communication, right? Who are we making music for? What do _they_ think - the 99.9% (I hope I'm exaggerating here) of the population who are barely musically literate? Can _they _hear the difference between a $16 million Stradivarius and a SWAM violin (or any library for that matter), if both were played blindly for them? And if we told them the difference, or if they _could_ hear the difference, would they _prefer_ the sound of the $16 million Stradivarius over a VST? Hmmm...
> 
> I'm a pianist and I would love to think that the average person would be able to hear the difference between my Mason & Hamlin grand (that I paid a pretty penny for) and a Pianoteq or Keyscapes emulation of a grand piano. _I _can tell the difference but can _they_? And again, if they were told the difference, would they _prefer_ the Mason & Hamlin sound? Today's music consumer has probably grown up listening to piano and violin emulations more than they do real pianos and violins! In that case, they may dislike my Mason & Hamlin and the Stradivarius because, _to them,_ it doesn't fit what they _perceive_ as a piano or violin sound (they may actually prefer a "synthy" VST!). And their ears are the ones we need to concern ourselves with, right? Not ours! True story: I was listening to a recording by the LSO the other day on Apple Music (I'm studying composition) and I remember thinking, "Man this string section sounds so damn synthy!", almost unbearable, like a Casio keyboard from the 1980s! But then I remembered that I was listening to real, professional violins, lol! Not the whole performance, but in spots. Who knows, maybe I'm not as musically literate as I thought! But I digress.
> 
> ...


My Primary audience is Me.  , or I should say, my ears.

So, I must make sure my ears are satisfied. If they are not, nothing else matters. 

No compromises. They are super demanding, and picky.


----------



## Polkasound (Mar 8, 2021)

ManOn1st said:


> Which is your audience? Can they hear the differences? _We_ obviously do, but, honestly, do _they_?


This has been discussed to some length on this forum before. Let's say a highly-skilled MIDI composer used Garritan Personal Orchestra to score a blockbuster film...

* The average moviegoer off the street wouldn't think anything was amiss.​​* The avid moviegoer who pays some attention to the music might find it not as "alive" as it could be.​​* And then there are composers, musicians, and other people in the music industry — such as those you find on VI-Control who live and breathe music and film scores — who would know right away it was done with a cheap VI.​
There will always musicians out there happily churning out mediocre tracks for the masses to make a few bucks. The standard to which they are holding their music is indifference. But if you are aiming to please that third group of people, like the kind you find on VI-Control, then the standard to which you are holding your music is excellence.


----------



## X-Bassist (Mar 8, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> My favorite videos of SWAM-S Solo Strings.



These are some of the best demos, but I STILL want to hear it sound like the first violinist- there is a hollow wood tone of the body that sounds beautiful that is missing in the swam version, in fact in most versions, and I have a lot of solo violins. Chris Hein and Bohemien come closest, but something in the “sowing it all together” where Swam shines is where others fall apart.

I suppose it’s got to be just the right sowing, and just the right samples. Afflatus seems to have that combo and I like using them, but they are not as flexible as Swam. I really hope Swam can get closer and replace their demos. 😄


----------



## muziksculp (Mar 8, 2021)

X-Bassist said:


> These are some of the best demos, but I STILL want to hear it sound like the first violinist- there is a hollow wood tone of the body that sounds beautiful that is missing in the swam version


Maybe the new Timbral-Shaping feature in version 3 will help add the wood tone that is missing.


----------



## X-Bassist (Mar 8, 2021)

mohsohsenshi said:


> Two of my favourite demos of always:
> 
> Though his dynamic control sounds like wind instrument (due to the fact that he used breath to control the expression), this demo shows that Swam strings can be far away from "synthy":
> 
> ...



The first demo sounds somewhere between a bassoon and oboe, and yes, synthy. I’m just speaking about tone. Swam always rocks in the performance and control areas, but the tone, when I close my eyes, doesn’t even say string much less violin. Compare to a violin playing it, I expect to get close enough to fool an audience...

Which I disagree, are not easy to fool. Do they care? Maybe not. But when selling a product (ads) or a plot (films) authenticity... or the appearance of it, is important to your goal... selling the plot or product. Because people don’t want to be distracted by “What is that in the soundtrack?” A violin should sound like a violin. Some musical styles transcend that, but that’s not what I’m trying to do. So if I can tell, can the producer who I’m trying to get an ok from tell? Perhaps. It sucks to get the note “what was that?”


----------



## CT (Mar 8, 2021)

ManOn1st said:


> Which is your audience? Can they hear the differences? _We_ obviously do, but, honestly, do _they_? And if they do hear the difference, do they prefer the real thing or the emulation?


I've tried to explore this question very unscientifically with people I know of varying degrees of musical awareness, none of which reach our level of VI myopia though. Their responses to comparisons which were painstakingly done to show each type of VI (sampled vs. modeled/semi-modeled) in the best light were pretty uniformly the same as my own, just without the technical reasoning to explain them. Traditional samples were more appealing.

I think average people don't actively notice _anything_ about music in the context of a game or movie or whatever, as opposed to specifically not noticing the strengths and shortcomings of one type of VI against another. Direct their attention to it though, and they seem to have defined feelings when something is more or less "authentic." I imagine that's still operating on a less conscious level when they're not thinking about it.

I was already convinced of what I tools I'm willing to use based on my own standards. That other less obsessed listeners had similar preferences when asked to focus in on those details just cements that, but even if that weren't the case, I don't see why anyone would want to use something that they lack significant confidence in. We can wonder about all manner of details and whether they make a difference or not in the end, but why not at least get those details right for yourself and out of respect for the craft? And no need to jump on me, I'm not suggesting people who DO like these VIs are somehow wrong to have that confidence (though I can't fathom it myself).


----------



## Lazer42 (Mar 8, 2021)

Polkasound said:


> This has been discussed to some length on this forum before. Let's say a highly-skilled MIDI composer used Garritan Personal Orchestra to score a blockbuster film...
> 
> * The average moviegoer off the street wouldn't think anything was amiss.​​* The avid moviegoer who pays some attention to the music might find it not as "alive" as it could be.​​* And then there are composers, musicians, and other people in the music industry — such as those you find on VI-Control who live and breathe music and film scores — who would know right away it was done with a cheap VI.​
> There will always musicians out there happily churning out mediocre tracks for the masses to make a few bucks. The standard to which they are holding their music is indifference. But if you are aiming to please that third group of people, like the kind you find on VI-Control, then the standard to which you are holding your music is excellence.


I disagree that the average movie-goer wouldn't think anything was amiss.

For example, I think the average viewer recognizes that the music in The Princess Bride is not a real orchestra. I also think that the vast majority don't care. After all, it's the sound they were going for with the film and it fits (at least sortof).

Take that same kind of sound and put it in a Star Wars film and I think most viewers would be of the opinion that the music wasn't that good, even if they couldn't explain exactly why.

To give another example: for many years over different releases, there was discussion among Legend of Zelda fans that Nintendo needed to finally record a real orchestra for the next game. Most of the fans discussing these games recognized the difference, and many felt the games were worse for not having a real orchestra.


----------



## Saxer (Mar 8, 2021)

It's all about the emotional impact. If you can get it like a real orchestra it's fine. But I bet you can't... at least not compared to a real good one.


----------



## Polkasound (Mar 9, 2021)

Lazer42 said:


> I disagree that the average movie-goer wouldn't think anything was amiss.
> 
> For example, I think the average viewer recognizes that the music in The Princess Bride is not a real orchestra. I also think that the vast majority don't care. After all, it's the sound they were going for with the film and it fits (at least sortof).
> 
> ...


I am not familiar with The Princess Pride or Legend of Zelda so I can't offer an opinion there, but speaking in a general sense, you give the average moviegoer more credit than I do.

A person who can identify a real orchestra vs. sample library is on par with a forensic detective who can identify two different kinds of carpet fibers under a microscope. It's not a skill the average person is born with. But for anyone interested enough in the subject to gain some experience, they'll develop the skill.

I think most people would hear the difference in sound between a real orchestra and a soundtrack created from something like a 1980s era MIDI sound module, but it's my humble opinion that, to the average moviegoer, a soundtrack skillfully created with even a mediocre sample library would pass with flying colors.


----------



## Bollen (Mar 9, 2021)

Saxer said:


> It's all about the emotional impact. If you can get it like a real orchestra it's fine. But I bet you can't... at least not compared to a real good one.


This in a nutshell is what I always say to people... My "virtual" orchestras/bands are vastly superior to the average real ones I've had a chance to work with. They never make a mistake, the always play in time and in tune, etc. But when you get a real orchestra/band where the musicians are excellent, then well... That's just heaven!


----------



## muziksculp (Mar 13, 2021)

Hi,

Is there any info. about when SWAM Ver 3.0 will be available for AudioModeling SWAM Woodwinds ?

Thanks,
Muziksculp


----------



## ChristianM (Mar 15, 2021)

Received their email with details on the upgrade pricing:
If you have supported audiomodeling since their beginnings and you already have V2, you are the idot compared to the one who would buy V2 today


----------



## Noeticus (Mar 15, 2021)

ChristianM said:


> Received their email with details on the upgrade pricing:
> If you have supported audiomodeling since their beginnings and you already have V2, you are the idot compared to the one who would buy V2 today


Does the math actually show this? I have the full V2 Strings Bundle, and it will now only cost $90 to upgrade (not update) to the full V3 Strings Bundle.

Also, where the hell is a nice promo/demo video of what V3 SWAM Strings can do?


----------



## ChristianM (Mar 15, 2021)

Noeticus said:


> Does the math actually show this? I have the full V2 Strings Bundle, and it will now only cost $90 to upgrade (not update) to the full V3 Strings Bundle.
> 
> Also, where the hell is a nice promo/demo video of what V3 SWAM Strings can do?


if you buy v2 today, v3 is free ... if you already had v2 you must pay to have v3 (???)
outside, v3 is not an evolution but a new product according to them


----------



## Noeticus (Mar 15, 2021)

ChristianM said:


> if you buy v2 today, v3 is free ... if you already had v2 you must pay to have v3 (???)
> outside, v3 is not an evolution but a new product according to them


Okay, so... I think the mistake Audio Modeling is "perhaps" making here is calling V3 an Upgrade, and not an Update, which is leading to their pricing being a bit odd.

For me, I can't image that I will ever use V2 once I have V3 installed.


----------



## Maarten (Mar 15, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> Is there any info. about when SWAM Ver 3.0 will be available for AudioModeling SWAM Woodwinds ?
> 
> ...







__





A rough roadmap...


Hello everybody!Things are evolving each day at Audio Modeling, so we are not able to provide dates "written in the stone".This is currently our - very rough - roadmap:- **February 2...




community.audiomodeling.com


----------



## ChristianM (Mar 15, 2021)

Maarten said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


at the end of this month


----------



## muziksculp (Mar 15, 2021)

Maarten said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OK. Thanks.

So SWAM V3 for Solo Woodwinds is expected in June. 

Quote from their website :

*June 2021: SWAM Solo Woodwinds v3 for Desktop and iPad*


----------



## Marc555 (Mar 16, 2021)

It's true that there's a lot of work involved in adding expression, vibrato, vibrato depth and other articulations. It's LONG work, but sounds in the end more expressive than samples.


----------



## muziksculp (Mar 17, 2021)

If they plan to release V3 during the last few days of March, they might as well had announced it would be available in April.


----------



## Polkasound (Mar 17, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> If they plan to release V3 during the last few days of March, they might as well had announced it would be available in April.


In 2018, AM announced the expected release of SWAM Brass to be spring of 2019. Then it was pushed to fall of 2019. It wasn't released until the end of February, 2020. Just putting that out there for anyone who is champing at the bit.


----------



## muziksculp (Mar 17, 2021)

Polkasound said:


> In 2018, AM announced the expected release of SWAM Brass to be spring of 2019. Then it was pushed to fall of 2019. It wasn't released until the end of February, 2020. Just putting that out there for anyone who is champing at the bit.


LOL. 

Let's see what happens with SWAM-S (Solo Strings) V3 March release.


----------



## krismiller1982 (Mar 17, 2021)

Ya I'm not holding my breath. I'm still a little irked I would have to pay for an upgrade having bought the All In bundle last November.


----------



## robgb (Mar 22, 2021)

FYI, I was given an NFR version of the SWAM brass last year. After a period, I could no longer use the instruments (thus making it impossible for me to complete my review), not because they have a timer on them, but because you are required to log into your Audio Modeling account to get them to work. Maybe Audio Modeling can correct me on this if I'm wrong, but it seems you must have an Internet connection or the instrument won't work. That may not be true once you have initially logged in the first time you use the instrument.

If the new SWAM strings work the same way (and it looks like they will), I have some reservations about upgrading.


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## Noeticus (Mar 22, 2021)

What is NFR?


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## Bollen (Mar 22, 2021)

Noeticus said:


> What is NFR?


Not For Resale...?


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## Jamus (Mar 22, 2021)

Is there anything new with V3? Are the instruments reprogrammed and that much more real? I don't really want to spend $120 for a new interface 🙃


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## robgb (Mar 22, 2021)

Noeticus said:


> What is NFR?


It's a reviewer's copy. Not for Resale.


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## cuttime (Mar 22, 2021)

robgb said:


> FYI, I was given an NFR version of the SWAM brass last year. After a period, I could no longer use the instruments (thus making it impossible for me to complete my review), not because they have a timer on them, but because you are required to log into your Audio Modeling account to get them to work. Maybe Audio Modeling can correct me on this if I'm wrong, but it seems you must have an Internet connection or the instrument won't work. That may not be true once you have initially logged in the first time you use the instrument.
> 
> If the new SWAM strings work the same way (and it looks like they will), I have some reservations about upgrading.


It only requires one online internet authorization that creates a permanent local authorization file. I had a violin that required reauthorization, but Emanuele assured me that it was not supposed to work that way and he went the extra mile to get it fixed for me.


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## robgb (Mar 22, 2021)

cuttime said:


> It only requires one online internet authorization that creates a permanent local authorization file. I had a violin that required reauthorization, but Emanuele assured me that it was not supposed to work that way and he went the extra mile to get it fixed for me.


If my memory serves me, the authorization for the strings only required downloading a license key but did not require connecting to the Internet when the vst is launched. The brass requires you to log in to your account from the vst launch screen. I imagine the new string version will be the same.


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## cuttime (Mar 22, 2021)

robgb said:


> If my memory serves me, the authorization for the strings only required downloading a license key but did not require connecting to the Internet when the vst is launched.


In my case I had to launch the [AU, VST] only once while online and to copy and paste an emailed license key.


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## robgb (Mar 22, 2021)

cuttime said:


> In my case I had to launch the [AU, VST] only once while online and to copy and paste an emailed license key.


Yes. For the strings. The brass is authorized differently. The new string GUI looks the same as the brass, so I imagine this newer authorization method will be used for version 3.0.


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## robgb (Mar 22, 2021)

From their website:

SWAM BRASS & CAMELOT ACTIVATION
To activate SWAM Solo Brass and Camelot products, login with your Customer Portal credentials


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## Noeticus (Mar 23, 2021)

"SUA" stand for "Stop Using Acronyms".


----------



## muziksculp (Mar 25, 2021)




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## DANIELE (Mar 25, 2021)

I want to hear the cello.


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## ManOn1st (Mar 25, 2021)

Hmmm.... interesting that sometimes for modeled instruments I’m less convinced by the company’s demos than I am by hearing some of the work done by this and other communities. I wonder why that is...


----------



## Bollen (Mar 25, 2021)

muziksculp said:


>



I can hear some improvement, but it's hard to tell with the old playing at the same time. What a bizarre marketing decision... "Hey, here's our new product, but you can't quiet hear it because we've covered it with our old one...! 🤔


----------



## DANIELE (Mar 25, 2021)

Bollen said:


> I can hear some improvement, but it's hard to tell with the old playing at the same time. What a bizarre marketing decision... "Hey, here's our new product, but you can't quiet hear it because we've covered it with our old one...! 🤔


Exactly the same thinking as mine. I also said I want to listen to the cello because it is one of the most difficult to make.
I hope they will bring some naked demos of all the instruments.


----------



## muziksculp (Mar 25, 2021)

Bollen said:


> I can hear some improvement, but it's hard to tell with the old playing at the same time. What a bizarre marketing decision... "Hey, here's our new product, but you can't quiet hear it because we've covered it with our old one...! 🤔


I agree. Kind of a lame way to demo a new instrument version by mixing it with the older one. 

I wonder who was the marketing genius behind this demo ? Especially since they are playing at the same time. They could have at least played one then the other so we can hear the difference.


----------



## DANIELE (Mar 25, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I agree. Kind of a lame way to demo a new instrument version by mixing it with the older one.
> 
> I wonder who was the marketing genius behind this demo ? Especially since they are playing at the same time. They could have at least played one then the other so we can hear the difference.


I think this is more a "buy now and you get V3 for free/you can use both V2 and V3 side by side" demo thing even if I don't understand why make a video about it while a written explanation is more than enough.


----------



## pmcrockett (Mar 25, 2021)

Version 3 sounds warmer and less nasal to me than v2. Probably a result of the updated impulse responses. I agree that it's weird to demo the two versions at the same time, but the point seems to be _go ahead and buy/use v2 right now -- you don't have to worry about v3 breaking your projects because it installs separately._


----------



## muziksculp (Mar 25, 2021)

I wonder if SWAM-S Solo Strings V3 will be released this month as advertised, or they are delaying the release to next month, or even beyond ? That would be a big downer.


----------



## Cmyth_1 (Mar 25, 2021)

I’m not sure who on the AM team runs the YouTube channel, but they replied to someone’s comment saying it should be out “Almost a week... fingers crossed”


----------



## Bollen (Mar 25, 2021)

pmcrockett said:


> Version 3 sounds warmer and less nasal to me than v2. Probably a result of the updated impulse responses. I agree that it's weird to demo the two versions at the same time, but the point seems to be _go ahead and buy/use v2 right now -- you don't have to worry about v3 breaking your projects because it installs separately._


Maybe, but v2 sucks and I would never buy it... I already have a Casio keyboard somewhere in a drawer and it also doubles as a calculator...


----------



## ManOn1st (Mar 26, 2021)

Well this demo moved me from “definite buy” to “let’s wait to hear it in the hands of other creators and read initial reviews”. With the delay of Ininite Series Strings, I guess March won’t be the month I load up on all things modeled strings after all.


----------



## muziksculp (Mar 26, 2021)

The fact that V3 is NOT an update, but rather is a completely new product is very interesting. 

Audio Modeling emphasize this important fact, which could mean that they are using from the ground up new algorithms, and modeling techniques for the new V3 Solo Strings. 

So, the differences/improvements should be quite big, and very audible when comparing V2 with V3. This makes me very hopeful that we are looking at major improvements, not just some minor ones.


----------



## tcb (Mar 26, 2021)

Polkasound said:


> While the above post is insightful, I still cringe anytime someone publicly posts an email. Even form responses like the one above should be regarded as private conversations between a sender and select recipients.


I delete that post.sorry for my unsuitable post.


----------



## tcb (Mar 26, 2021)

The point is that AM said V3 is not a upgrade replacement of V2.I think it reveals that V3 will have big differences from V2 in sound/workflow etc.
There is only a few days left.I am ready


----------



## muziksculp (Mar 26, 2021)

tcb said:


> The point is that AM said V3 is not a upgrade replacement of V2.I think it reveals that V3 will have big differences from V2 in sound/workflow etc.
> There is only a few days left.I am ready


Yes, and this will apply to the Woodwinds, and Brass V3 Instruments. Exciting times ahead


----------



## Noeticus (Mar 29, 2021)

I am awaiting the news about...

Audio Modeling SWAM Solo Strings V 3.0​


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## muziksculp (Mar 29, 2021)

Given they are still announcing V 3.0 will be available in *March* on their site, I'm guessing it's going to be out on Wednesday, March 31st. , hopefully they don't change this to a later date.


----------



## Saxer (Mar 29, 2021)

I got a public beta request last week or so but didn't have time to participate. I think v3 will be out as far as no bugs will be found. So it depends.


----------



## muziksculp (Mar 29, 2021)

Saxer said:


> I got a public beta request last week or so but didn't have time to participate. I think v3 will be out as far as no bugs will be found. So it depends.



Hopefully they have had enough time, and testers to beta test it, and all is working well, no last minute delay announcement.


----------



## Noeticus (Mar 29, 2021)

I also await their 24 string ensemble version..... someday.


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## muziksculp (Mar 29, 2021)

Hi,

While we patiently wait for SWAM-S V3 Solo Strings, I thought this is a fun video for SWAM Instruments fans to watch in case you missed it.





Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## Windbag (Mar 30, 2021)

Kinda running out of March by my watch...anyone catch any updates here? I've only seen the iOS announcements


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## muziksculp (Mar 30, 2021)

Windbag said:


> Kinda running out of March by my watch...anyone catch any updates here? I've only seen the iOS announcements


March has another day left here. So, hopefully V3 will be released tomorrow (Wed.) 

Unless they made a mistake with the Year


----------



## Ben H (Mar 30, 2021)

> Things are evolving each day at Audio Modeling, so we are not able to provide dates "written in the stone".
> *This is currently our - very rough - roadmap:**
> 
> [snip]
> ...


*Boldened for emphasis

A rough roadmap...


----------



## muziksculp (Mar 30, 2021)

Ben H said:


> *Boldened for emphasis
> 
> A rough roadmap...


Oh.. that's Sweet, and a good excuse to not release it tomorrow.


----------



## Ben H (Mar 30, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Oh.. that's Sweet, and a good excuse to not release it tomorrow.


They've been saying this FOR YEARS now. Not THEIR fault no one can seem to read properly.


----------



## muziksculp (Mar 30, 2021)

Ben H said:


> They've been saying this FOR YEARS now. Not THEIR fault no one can seem to read properly.


They can easily update March to a later month in a matter of seconds. So, maybe they don't know how to update the info. on their website.


----------



## Ben H (Mar 30, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> They can easily update March to a later month in a matter of seconds. So, maybe they don't know how to update the info. on their website.


It already says NOT WRITTEN IN STONE.
The thread title is A Rough Roadmap.

How much more explicit do they need to be?


----------



## Cmyth_1 (Mar 30, 2021)

Personally, I don't mind waiting a little longer. I know plugin development is not always smooth sailing.
It's better to take your time than to rush.


----------



## muziksculp (Mar 30, 2021)

Well... We technically have another day to go in March. If they don't release it, it is because it's not ready yet. I understand, but if it is not ready a day before the last day in March, they can easily update their available from March Advertising.


----------



## emasters (Mar 30, 2021)

They will release it when it's ready -- if they run into beta issues, best to fix the defects before releasing on a broad scale. Seems like they are close - hopefully not too much longer. We are all very much aware with software development, dates can be fluid. Looking forward to a solid release with great instruments to play.


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## Noeticus (Mar 30, 2021)

🎻🎻🎻🎻🎻🎻🎻🎻🎻🎻🎻🎻

Soon we will be swimming in the SWAM.


----------



## muziksculp (Mar 30, 2021)

Noeticus said:


> 🎻🎻🎻🎻🎻🎻🎻🎻🎻🎻🎻🎻
> 
> Soon we will be swimming in the SWAM.


If it is not released tomorrow we will be swimming in the SWAMP


----------



## Windbag (Mar 30, 2021)

Ben H said:


> It already says NOT WRITTEN IN STONE.
> The thread title is A Rough Roadmap.
> 
> How much more explicit do they need to be?


Whoa there... THEY sent ME the below email, unprompted, on the 3rd of this month...similalry 'boldened for emphasis' and decidedly unambiguous. Nonetheless it seems increasingly likely this timeline is getting pushed, so I was just kinda curious if anyone's gotten more recent indication of when we can look forward to new strings.

I don't mind waiting a bit, and I'm certainly not angry....just excited and curious. Seems like my answer is effectly 'no,' so I guess we see when we see.


----------



## topaz (Mar 31, 2021)

V.3 Live now.


----------



## doctoremmet (Mar 31, 2021)

topaz said:


> V.3 Live now.


Paging @muziksculp - expecting a full review soon (before Sonokinetic release theirs and we will have lost you for months).


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## tcb (Mar 31, 2021)

GOGOGO


----------



## muziksculp (Mar 31, 2021)




----------



## tcb (Mar 31, 2021)




----------



## muziksculp (Mar 31, 2021)




----------



## Noeticus (Mar 31, 2021)

tcb said:


>



V3 sounds better!!! Who would have guessed?


----------



## Markrs (Mar 31, 2021)

Noeticus said:


> V3 sounds better!!! Who would have guessed?


They were my thoughts as well. I have the beta version on my iPad now, so looking forward to trying them out. Hopefully another step closer to being able to create orchestral music on an iPad (along with using Staffpad, which I don't own yet, as I suck at notation)


----------



## muziksculp (Mar 31, 2021)

Any idea how to purchase the Upgrade from V2 to V3 of the SWAM Solo Strings ?

I only get a full price showing for V3.


----------



## muziksculp (Mar 31, 2021)

OK.. I just noticed they added this notification :


----------



## Monkberry (Mar 31, 2021)

Expensive day, today! UVI Quadra this morning, In Session Audio World Percussion Creator 15 minutes ago, and now the String Bundle SWAM update. This one's not too bad at $90 but then I could get the Omnisphere Bob Moog v2 synth library for $99 instead. Think I'll wait to read the reviews of the SWAM update regarding improved sound.


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## muziksculp (Mar 31, 2021)

Looking forward to video walkthrough, and tutorials of V3 SWAM Solo Strings


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## DANIELE (Mar 31, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Looking forward to video walkthrough, and tutorials of V3 SWAM Solo Strings


Me too. Finally the new V3 strings are out.


----------



## Noeticus (Mar 31, 2021)

I do not see how to update/upgrade "properly" to v3 either?


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## muziksculp (Mar 31, 2021)

For those who want to know more about what V3 offers, you can download the pdf user's manual from the download link on their release notes page :

https://audiomodeling.com/support/release-notes/swam-solo-strings-v3-release-notes/


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## muziksculp (Mar 31, 2021)

Noeticus said:


> I do not see how to update/upgrade "properly" to v3 either?


It's not ready yet. 

See this : https://vi-control.net/community/th...available-from-march-2021.104549/post-4794799


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## muziksculp (Mar 31, 2021)

From Audio Modeling Site :

Quote : 

*Main features:*


Completely Physical Modeled instruments. No samples at all!
Modeled Bow/String interaction and Pizzicato
Super realistic Legatos
Several instrument bodies, with different characters
Timbral correction feature
Powerful MIDI Mapping feature that supports CC, Hi-Res CC, After-Touch NRPN, and remapping curves that allow more customization and sensitivity to any controller
Main parameters: Expression (Dynamic), Note transitions (Staccato / Legato / Portamento) with no KeySwitches, Bow Pressure, Bow Position, Play Mode (Bowed, Pizzicato, Col Legno), Mono vs Double polyphony, Vibrato Depth, Vibrato Rate, Tremolo On/Off, Tremolo Speed, Harmonics, Portamento Time, Portamento split point (across strings), Attack speed, Dynamic Transitions, Sordino On/Off, Alternate Fingering, Bow Lift, Bow Start (Up / Down), Sustain, Microtuning, Main Volume, Pan Pot, Reverb Mix.


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## Windbag (Mar 31, 2021)

Well cool....I guess I'm glad I didn't spring for the violin before launch after all. Have to give that a crack tonight and dig back into the cello whenever they get the upgrade running. 

I hear pretty subtle difference in the example above...good on ya for posting so fast!

I am keenly interested in model variations (something I was surprised to find make such a significant difference with the cello) for small group/quartet work without that doubling characteristic I seem to always hear in en-swam-bles, and because the cello model I like the most by far seems not to be the one everyone else uses


----------



## DANIELE (Mar 31, 2021)

I hope someone will soon post an in depth walkthrough, I think I'll go for the update but I'd like to see something before buying the products.


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## muziksculp (Mar 31, 2021)

Not a walkthgouth, but a cool demo !


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## Noeticus (Mar 31, 2021)

V3 Strings sounds way better than V2 as far as I am concerned, and so I say that V3 is a major improvement!

:emoji_fire: :emoji_fire: :emoji_fire:


----------



## muziksculp (Mar 31, 2021)




----------



## muziksculp (Mar 31, 2021)




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## DANIELE (Mar 31, 2021)

muziksculp said:


>


So for me that I bought every single strings instrument is 120$ for the full upgrade instead of 90$ for the ones that bought the bundle with the same instruments inside?

EDIT
I still don't see the tab mentioned here, I still see the sentence about future availability of the upgrade option.


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## Markrs (Mar 31, 2021)

I'm playing with them on the iPad an love them. Can't compare with V2 as I never had that, but the new version sounds fantastic.


----------



## robgb (Mar 31, 2021)

Does anyone else see this as much of an improvement over Version 2? I like Version 2 a lot, but don't hear Version 3 sounding all that different. Is it worth spending $90 for a slick new interface?


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## muziksculp (Mar 31, 2021)

Markrs said:


> I'm playing with them on the iPad an love them. Can't compare with V2 as I never had that, but the new version sounds fantastic.


I wonder if the iPad Solo Strings version is identical sounding to the Windows/Mac version 3. , or there are differences ?


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## muziksculp (Mar 31, 2021)

robgb said:


> Does anyone else see this as much of an improvement over Version 2? I like Version 2 a lot, but don't hear Version 3 sounding all that different. Is it worth spending $90 for a slick new interface?


I didn't upgrade to V3 yet, but I hear a nicer timbre in V3 for sure.


----------



## Markrs (Mar 31, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I wonder if the iPad Solo Strings version is identical sounding to the Windows/Mac version 3. , or there are differences ?


Should be identical, but not all the advanced features are enabled. If anyone has an iPad it is free to test the libraries for 87 days, this often renews when they do an update.


----------



## muziksculp (Mar 31, 2021)

Markrs said:


> Should be identical, but not all the advanced features are enabled. If anyone has an iPad it is free to test the libraries for 87 days, this often renews when they do an update.


Cool. 

Q. Do you use your iPad with your DAW, if Yes, how do you have them connected for Audio, and MIDI ? 

I have an iPad Pro, but never use it for playing audio/instruments with my DAW. I only use it as a midi controller.


----------



## Markrs (Mar 31, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Cool.
> 
> Q. Do you use your iPad with your DAW, if Yes, how do you have them connected for Audio, and MIDI ?
> 
> I have an iPad Pro, but never use it for playing audio/instruments with my DAW. I only use it as a midi controller.


iOS has a whole world of music playing. I use mine with Cubasis 3 but mainly use AUM. As Cubasis is a pretty full DAW from Steinberg you can of course output stems without a problem, but Cubase also has has a Cubasis importer.


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## Markrs (Mar 31, 2021)

The music app on iOS are amazing, I have spent plenty of money buying them. Lots of YouTube channels that cover all the things out there.


----------



## robgb (Mar 31, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I didn't upgrade to V3 yet, but I hear a nicer timbre in V3 for sure.


Really? I'm just not hearing it. But then my ears are shot.


----------



## muziksculp (Mar 31, 2021)

My SWAM Solo Strings V3.0 User Manual printed, ready to be studied.  I haven't purchased V3 Upgrade yet.

I enjoy studying the user manual before using an instrument, especially a complex one like SWAM. I always find that having a printed version of Instrument/Library user's manual in a folder that I have fast access to is always helpful to have.


----------



## tabulius (Mar 31, 2021)

As always, the official demos suck, but the potential is there for sure.

Here is another user demo that sounds much better imo. I saw that he/she offers an impulse response for AM Violin, so everyone who owns V2 or V3, I think you should give it a try.


----------



## soPpypoPsy (Mar 31, 2021)

I am also one of the users waiting for the upgrade.

The custom IR by Cmyth is great and I love it too. This video is a comparison of v2 real-time trials (not detailed)


I would like to try what will happen with v3.

About v3 ... I haven't actually played it yet, but I especially like the improvement of Pizzicato. The improvement of Poly mode, which was difficult in v2, is wonderful, making it easier to express classical playing styles.
It is interesting that the behavior display of Detache has been added.
Also, I'm glad to have a harmonic EQ like Pianoteq. By changing them, we can make detailed sounds.

I am looking forward to future developments as I have applied for "behavior of excluding open strings and playing near the Nut".

The only concerns are CPU load and stability. There was no beta for desktop, so we may need to report bugs after it's released.


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## muziksculp (Mar 31, 2021)

tabulius said:


> As always, the official demos suck, but the potential is there for sure.


I wonder why they suck ?  

Thanks for the new video using an electric violin model. Interesting !


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## robgb (Mar 31, 2021)

soPpypoPsy said:


> I am also one of the users waiting for the upgrade.
> 
> The custom IR by Cmyth is great and I love it too. This video is a comparison of v2 real-time trials (not detailed)
> 
> ...



Where does this IR come from? It sounds quite nice.

EDIT: Never mind. Found it.


----------



## Noeticus (Mar 31, 2021)

Also.... SWAM Strings v3.0 will "supposedly" allow a full glissando from the highest possible note to the lowest (and back again) without any interruption.

This is something that I sort of begged for.


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## soPpypoPsy (Mar 31, 2021)

Upgrades are now available !


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## Noeticus (Mar 31, 2021)

What are you guys seeing to upgrade from all v2 strings to the ALL IN Bundle?

I see 360 euro... but when I click on it, it does not say All IN anymore... so ???


----------



## muziksculp (Mar 31, 2021)

Noeticus said:


> What are you guys seeing to upgrade from all v2 strings to the ALL IN Bundle?
> 
> I see 360 euro... but when I click on it, it does not say All IN anymore... so ???


This is what I see, and most likely what I'm purchasing.


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## pmcrockett (Mar 31, 2021)

I can confirm that you still get the 90 EUR upgrade even if you bought all of the strings individually instead of as a bundle.


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## Noeticus (Mar 31, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> This is what I see, and most likely what I'm purchasing.


Yes, I see that as well, but what about the ALL IN?


----------



## Noeticus (Mar 31, 2021)

I'm not kiddin', this is what I see...


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## muziksculp (Mar 31, 2021)

SWAM Solo Strings V3 Upgrade Bundle Ordered


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## pmcrockett (Mar 31, 2021)

Noeticus said:


> I'm not kiddin', this is what I see...


This is almost certainly an error. Can't check it in my account because I already own everything, but according to this page the upgrade from v2 strings to All In should be 1100 EUR.


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## muziksculp (Mar 31, 2021)

Noeticus said:


> I'm not kiddin', this is what I see...


Did you purchase the Solo SWAM V2. as a bundle ? or individually ? 

I'm guessing if you bought them as a bundle you will get the $90. Price to upgrade to V3, if you purchased V2 individually, you can buy them individually at $30 X 4 = $120. I'm not 100% sure about this. but that's just my guess. 

Do you see a $30. per SWAM instrument upgrade from V2 to V3 ?


----------



## dflood (Mar 31, 2021)

Noeticus said:


> I'm not kiddin', this is what I see...


I'm seeing exactly the same, which seems like a pretty hot deal.


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## dflood (Mar 31, 2021)

Noeticus said:


> I'm not kiddin', this is what I see...


I think it's an error, because if you put it in the cart it says "Swam Solo Strings V3" not All In One Bundle.


----------



## muziksculp (Mar 31, 2021)




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## Noeticus (Mar 31, 2021)

dflood said:


> I think it's an error, because if you put it in the cart it says "Swam Solo Strings V3" not All In One Bundle.


Yes, I see this as well.


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## Noeticus (Mar 31, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Did you purchase the Solo SWAM V2. as a bundle ? or individually ?
> 
> I'm guessing if you bought them as a bundle you will get the $90. Price to upgrade to V3, if you purchased V2 individually, you can buy them individually at $30 X 4 = $120. I'm not 100% sure about this. but that's just my guess.
> 
> Do you see a $30. per SWAM instrument upgrade from V2 to V3 ?


I bought the V2 bundle way back.

Yes, I also see the v2 to v3 $90 upgrade, but my issue is with the ALL IN?


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## Leandro Gardini (Mar 31, 2021)

robgb said:


> Where does this IR come from? It sounds quite nice.
> 
> EDIT: Never mind. Found it.


Where did you find it?


----------



## Jamus (Mar 31, 2021)

I guess it's out now, and though I have not purchased it just from listening to the demos on YouTube it sounds identical to V2, as in literally the same. So it's a new interface? Some slightly different CC curve options but otherwise the same? Someone convince me D: I want it to be more than that 🙁


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## robgb (Mar 31, 2021)

leogardini said:


> Where did you find it?


----------



## robgb (Mar 31, 2021)

Jamus said:


> I guess it's out now, and though I have not purchased it just from listening to the demos on YouTube it sounds identical to V2, as in literally the same. So it's a new interface? Some slightly different CC curve options but otherwise the same? Someone convince me D: I want it to be more than that 🙁


My thoughts exactly.


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## fakemaxwell (Mar 31, 2021)

It's not the same, it's definitely an upgrade and handles differently than V2. Most noticeably, the dynamic range is much greater. The tone, especially in the violin example here, is a lot less boxy.

I played these quick scales in with V2, and then used the same MIDI file to render V3. Roma cello and Cremona violin, no reverb so it's bone dry.


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## Windbag (Mar 31, 2021)

Violin sounds great. I foresee a late night (just now finishing my prior engagements). Thanks for the samples


----------



## Piano Pete (Mar 31, 2021)

Does the update finally include high resolution midi, or is it still running on 0-127? I remember that being in the roadmap somewhere.


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## Windbag (Mar 31, 2021)

Per the announcement email I got, see item 2:


----------



## Cmyth_1 (Mar 31, 2021)

Would like to post some examples as well. Here is a comparison between Violin V3 and V2 using my custom IR.
V2 to my ears sounds more fuzzy/synthy, while V3 seems to improves on this.


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## Piano Pete (Mar 31, 2021)

Windbag said:


> Per the announcement email I got, see item 2:


Thanks. For some reason, I never got this email.


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## robgb (Mar 31, 2021)

fakemaxwell said:


> It's not the same, it's definitely an upgrade and handles differently than V2. Most noticeably, the dynamic range is much greater. The tone, especially in the violin example here, is a lot less boxy.
> 
> I played these quick scales in with V2, and then used the same MIDI file to render V3. Roma cello and Cremona violin, no reverb so it's bone dry.


To my ears, the only real difference between Violin2 and Violin3 in these examples is that 2 has a small amount of early reflections and 3 has little to none. So, of course, they will sound different. I don't see the tone being much different. It seems to me it boils down to the IRs they're using. I personally think the IR created by Cmyth sounds better. There's also a stradivari impulse available for sale on the web that sounds very good.

As for the cello, I prefer version 2.

But the fact that we're straining to hear these differences suggests to me that the upgrade in sound does not warrant an upgrade price. I could be wrong, of course.


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## robgb (Mar 31, 2021)

Cmyth_1 said:


> _Would like to post some examples as well. Here is a comparison between Violin V3 and V2 using my custom IR.
> V2 to my ears sounds more fuzzy/synthy, while V3 seems to improves on this._


These sound practically identical to me.


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## Polkasound (Mar 31, 2021)

robgb said:


> But the fact that we're straining to hear these differences suggests to me that the upgrade in sound does not warrant an upgrade price. I could be wrong, of course.


I can hear a difference, but it's so subtle to me that I won't be upgrading. But I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who feel the difference is profound and well worth the upgrade.


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## Cmyth_1 (Mar 31, 2021)

I agree. I think the differences at the moment aren't really too noticeable, especially if used in a mix. Maybe with updates overtime, and further improvements to the sound, it'll be more worth upgrading.
Though personally, I think I'll stick with V3 for now


----------



## Jamus (Mar 31, 2021)

I also don't hear any significant difference. However I'd still like to ask anyone here currently in possession of V3 if there is any improvement to constructing ensembles? Can you apply those CC curves to things like dynamics/vibrato speed and depth, maybe even the portamento velocity in order to get a somewhat more ensemble like sound without having to play in multiple violins etc.?


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## Bollen (Mar 31, 2021)

I can hear a clear difference in the bumpiness of the amplitude modulation, personally I feel it's a setback, but surely easily fixable within the settings. The legatos on V3 however are much of an improvement! Now I'm actually considering getting these...


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## brunodegazio (Apr 1, 2021)

Anyone else having the following problems with v3.0 Cello? I'm using MacOS 10.13.6, and Vienna EnsemblePro 7.0.1056.

1. The plugin needs to be re-authorized every time I re-open its panel or reload the VEP project file. Yes, I have 'registered' the product serial numbers on the company website. 

2. Pressing the 'Delete' key while editing any plugin parameter causes the entire VEP channel to be deleted, not just the selected parameter. 

3. Importing a v2.1.2 preset file seems to do nothing at all, even though the v3 plugin replies with a cheery "import succeeded!"


----------



## Maarten (Apr 1, 2021)

brunodegazio said:


> Anyone else having the following problems with v3.0 Cello? I'm using MacOS 10.13.6, and Vienna EnsemblePro 7.0.1056.
> 
> 1. The plugin needs to be re-authorized every time I re-open its panel or reload the VEP project file. Yes, I have 'registered' the product serial numbers on the company website.
> 
> <snip>


Yes, I have problem 1. (re-authorization) with all the Solo Strings v.3. I already informed support of Audio Modeling. This is the response:
"Our techs are investigating the issue. We will keep you update."
EDIT: I'm using 10.15.7 (Catalina). And it's in the latest Logic Pro X, but also in Standalone mode. 
Re-entering the credentials.


----------



## tcb (Apr 1, 2021)

I have the same problem except violin v3.I am waiting for a fix


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## Batrawi (Apr 1, 2021)

robgb said:


>



wasn't really impressed by anything I heard until I saw this. it's getting more and more closer to the warmth and body of the real thing!


----------



## Andrea (Apr 1, 2021)

brunodegazio said:


> Anyone else having the following problems with v3.0 Cello? I'm using MacOS 10.13.6, and Vienna EnsemblePro 7.0.1056.
> 
> 1. The plugin needs to be re-authorized every time I re-open its panel or reload the VEP project file. Yes, I have 'registered' the product serial numbers on the company website.
> 
> ...


Hi Bruno,

1. We are fixing it; at the moment, as workaround, you can avoid this issue disabling internet connection following this order: a)open SWAM instrument; b) Log in c) disable internet.

2. need to check it

3. We are aware about this issue. It should be in the known issues list but maybe we missed it. We will implement it in the next release but remember that they are different products and so imported V2 presets most likely will have a different sound in SWAM V3 and not all v2 parameters can be mapped in v3 parameters.


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## Batrawi (Apr 1, 2021)

is there ensemble building feature/real-time-randomization amongst loaded models in V3?


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## DANIELE (Apr 1, 2021)

Maarten said:


> Yes, I have problem 1. (re-authorization) with all the Solo Strings v.3. I already informed support of Audio Modeling. This is the response:
> "Our techs are investigating the issue. We will keep you update."
> EDIT: I'm using 10.15.7 (Catalina). And it's in the latest Logic Pro X, but also in Standalone mode.
> Re-entering the credentials.


Is this only on Mac or does it happens with the Windows version too?


----------



## Piano Pete (Apr 1, 2021)

Tonal differences aside, the biggest thing I have been waiting for has been the introduction of hires midi. Curious to see how that will play out with the bi-polar mode, as it should (hopefully) remove the restriction of having a very-very short bow.


----------



## dr-music (Apr 1, 2021)

DANIELE said:


> Is this only on Mac or does it happens with the Windows version too?


Yes, I've got this problem on Windows 10 (20H2).


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## fakemaxwell (Apr 1, 2021)

Same here with the re-auth. Floating/pinning the plugin window has worked as a workaround for now, as long as you don't close it it should stay signed in.


----------



## Bruhelius (Apr 1, 2021)

To build ensembles we will need more custom IRs...what would be the best approach to generate these? I know that signal wizard systems Vsound2 comes with a utility to shape IRs, but this is complicated


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## robgb (Apr 1, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> wasn't really impressed by anything I heard until I saw this. it's getting more and more closer to the warmth and body of the real thing!


Just keep in mind that this is the result of someone else's custom IR, not audio modeling's.


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## muziksculp (Apr 1, 2021)

I haven't installed SWAM V3 Solo Strings yet, and I won't rush to install this version.

I will wait for the Update to fix the issues, especially the Authorization issue. Hopefully it won't take too long for Audio Modeling to fix these issues.


----------



## SupremeFist (Apr 1, 2021)

A bit like nuclear fusion, modelling is definitely the future and has been for about 20 years.  But these still don't sound good enough to me to use exposed...


----------



## lelepar (Apr 1, 2021)

Hi guys!
April Fools' Day is almost over... you can login to SWAM products with no issues now 

Best!


----------



## muziksculp (Apr 1, 2021)

lelepar said:


> Hi guys!
> April Fools' Day has almost over... you can login to SWAM products with no issues now
> 
> Best!


Thanks. Does this mean the Authorization issue when using SWAM Solo Strings V3 is fixed ?


----------



## fakemaxwell (Apr 1, 2021)

Authorization works now, which is good. Another strange problem has popped up, I submitted a ticket already but figured I'd ask here if anybody else with a different host is experiencing this.

Whenever I play notes, either playback or real time, undo points are created in Reaper. Attached a gif of what's happening. Version 2 works fine, it's just with version 3 (and is affecting all strings, not just violins). It looks like with legato lines, there's no FX parameter adjustment reported until the end of the line.

Anybody experiencing something similar on a different host?


----------



## Cmyth_1 (Apr 1, 2021)

Also a Reaper user, this happens with me as well


----------



## Marc555 (Apr 1, 2021)

Polkasound said:


> I can hear a difference, but it's so subtle to me that I won't be upgrading. But I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who feel the difference is profound and well worth the upgrade.


The subtlest subtleness for me as well. It's not like hearing a new instrument at all.


----------



## muziksculp (Apr 1, 2021)

Marc555 said:


> The subtlest subtleness for me as well. It's not like hearing a new instrument at all.


Interesting. I haven't installed V3 yet. I plan to do so later today. 

It would be very interesting to hear some direct feedback from *Audio Modeling* regarding this ? 

How can a completely new version built from the ground up (V3) , sound so similar a the older, and differently modelled version (V2). ? 

Please @lelepar / Audio Modeling, 

Any feedback on this important detail would be very helpful, and interesting to read. Maybe users need to use V3 differently to make them sound much better than V2 ? please.. delight us with some feedback on this if possible. 

Thanks.


----------



## Lady Gaia (Apr 1, 2021)

I might be inclined to upgrade if there was confirmation that they've gotten around to Apple Silicon native support in v3, but I don't see anything indicating as much in the release notes?


----------



## DANIELE (Apr 1, 2021)

Is there a way to perform flautando with this solo strings? I noticed that if you play at a very low dynamics you hear the bow scratching on the strings, then if you rise the dynamics up slowly you suddenly hear the regolar sound, I didn't manage to find a way to perform flautando but I'm missing something for sure, maybe acting on the bow pressure could help...I'll try that...

EDIT
Yeah, exactly, I did it!


----------



## lelepar (Apr 1, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Thanks. Does this mean the Authorization issue when using SWAM Solo Strings V3 is fixed ?


Yes


DANIELE said:


> Is there a way to perform flautando with this solo strings? I noticed that if you play at a very low dynamics you hear the bow scratching on the strings, then if you rise the dynamics up slowly you suddenly hear the regolar sound, I didn't manage to find a way to perform flautando but I'm missing something for sure, maybe acting on the bow pressure could help...I'll try that...
> 
> EDIT
> Yeah, exactly, I did it!


Expression is mainly related to Bow Speed. Flautando is related to Bow Pressure. Indeed, if you decrease Bow Pressure below 0.20 the GUI shows "Flautando". 
BTW: everything is written on the User Manual


----------



## lelepar (Apr 1, 2021)

Lady Gaia said:


> I might be inclined to upgrade if there was confirmation that they've gotten around to Apple Silicon native support in v3, but I don't see anything indicating as much in the release notes?


Apple Silicon support is on the way. With Rosetta 2, SWAM Solo Strings v3 behave smoothly, anyway.


----------



## DANIELE (Apr 1, 2021)

lelepar said:


> Yes
> 
> Expression is mainly related to Bow Speed. Flautando is related to Bow Pressure. Indeed, if you decrease Bow Pressure below 0.20 the GUI shows "Flautando".
> BTW: everything is written on the User Manual


I know I know but it is almost bed time here so I'm only playing with the instruments for fun, I realized the solution while I was writing.

Another strange thing is happening to me is that I'm having some random drop outs, the V2 instruments (and all my other instruments by the way) used to play fine. Is there some performance issue due that has to be fixed for future updates?

Thank you.


----------



## Lady Gaia (Apr 1, 2021)

lelepar said:


> Apple Silicon support is on the way. With Rosetta 2, SWAM Solo Strings v3 behave smoothly, anyway.


Glad to hear it, and look forward to seeing it happen! I'm not interested in investing time and money into anything that doesn't have a clear commitment to supporting the new architecture directly. Rosetta is a fine stopgap measure, but it's clear enough from Apple history that it won't be around forever.

I'm also hoping that Expressive E's Osmose turns out to be a decent way to play the SWAM instruments, perhaps with a dedicated configuration for that purpose? I didn't really bond with the Seaboard and am eager to find a decent alternative.


----------



## DANIELE (Apr 1, 2021)

I must say that after a little playing with all the bundle and after putting them in my template I like how the sound and how they perform (drop outs aside), for me it is a big step from V2.


----------



## lelepar (Apr 1, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Interesting. I haven't installed V3 yet. I plan to do so later today.
> 
> It would be very interesting to hear some direct feedback from *Audio Modeling* regarding this ?
> 
> ...


SWAM Solo Strings v3 is a new product, with improved, sophisticated, Physical Modeling algorithms.
If you hear just "subtle" differences, I can tell that in order to improve such "subtle" differences it required us several months of research and studies.



> How can a completely new version built from the ground up (V3) , sound so similar a the older, and differently modelled version (V2). ?


For a bowed string instrument, at least 60% of the "sound" (i.e. timbre) is determined by the body. In case of a Physical Modeled instruments, it means that it is mainly determined by the body IR.
In SWAM Solo Strings v3 we left some IRs from Solo Strings v2 to allow users, including people of this community, to playback old projects made with SWAM Solo Strings v2 without changing completely sound, i.e. to sound very similar as before when using v3.
We added new IRs (marked with "v3") with new spectral characteristics that, in our opinion, provide a better response. 

Moreover, Solo Strings v3 has a new "Timbral Correction" feature that allows you to tweak the gain/reduction of up to two harmonics.
Pizzicato model has been completely renewed. Double Bass Jazzy pizzicato has been really improved.
There is a new Artificial Harmonic that can be controlled by automations or through MIDI CC.
Wide legatos have been hugely improved.
Early-Reflections algorithm has been replaced with a new one.

What to say about MIDI mapping / remapping features? If set and combined properly, they can change completely the response of the instrument. Also, we added support for HI-Resolution MIDI.

Best!


----------



## Windbag (Apr 1, 2021)

Lady Gaia said:


> I didn't really bond with the Seaboard and am eager to find a decent alternative.


Man I've had the opposite experience. The seaboard makes such a perfect analog for a fretless fingerboard. Legatos, minor reach-based portamentos, chord justification, and real vibrato with up or downward skew and natural speed changes...it's so much more involving and expressive to play. As a lifelong keyboard player, that extra pitch dimension at my fingertips is addicting.

Worth noting: I use 2 of the smaller seaboard blocks rather than a Rise; having had them side by side, the blocks were significantly more consistent and predictable, I sent the Rise 49 back


----------



## muziksculp (Apr 1, 2021)

lelepar said:


> SWAM Solo Strings v3 is a new product, with improved, sophisticated, Physical Modeling algorithms.
> If you hear just "subtle" differences, I can tell that in order to improve such "subtle" differences it required us several months of research and studies.
> 
> 
> ...


Thank You Very Much for the helpful feedback.  

I'm sure I will enjoy, and benefit a lot from all the improvements in V3. 

Cheers.


----------



## DCPImages (Apr 1, 2021)

Anybody tried the tremolo? I think I need some advice on how to use it properly. Maybe I don’t have the settings right, although they seem very simple?
David


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## Lady Gaia (Apr 1, 2021)

Windbag said:


> Man I've had the opposite experience. The seaboard makes such a perfect analog for a fretless fingerboard. Legatos, minor reach-based portamentos, chord justification, and real vibrato with up or downward skew and natural speed changes...it's so much more involving and expressive to play. As a lifelong keyboard player, that extra pitch dimension at my fingertips is addicting.
> 
> Worth noting: I use 2 of the smaller seaboard blocks rather than a Rise; having had them side by side, the blocks were significantly more consistent and predictable, I sent the Rise 49 back


I have also tried the Rise 49 and the block and, while I agree that they're both capable of a great deal of expression, I simply didn't connect with them. There just isn't the same positive feedback I get from playing other instruments I enjoy. Fantastic results from an otherwise dubious experience.

With you describe is largely what leads me to be hopeful about the Osmose: playable portamentos, vibrato with lateral key travel, and poly pressure sensitivity over a much longer travel range with more familiar key feel and movement. It's not the same, certainly, and will have its own advantages and disadvantages.


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## fakemaxwell (Apr 1, 2021)

I'm going to disagree with the people who are saying that it's only a subtle change. I threw together a clip of a Scoreclub exercise I was in the middle of, and to me the differences are obvious. Profound? Probably not, but the "boxy" quality you can get with IRs (not just for modeled strings, all IRs) seems to not really be present here.

Also included a clip of going flautando to scratch and back. I know whoever originally asked figured it out but it's a fun weird sound.


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## Jamus (Apr 1, 2021)

fakemaxwell said:


> I'm going to disagree with the people who are saying that it's only a subtle change. I threw together a clip of a Scoreclub exercise I was in the middle of, and to me the differences are obvious. Profound? Probably not, but the "boxy" quality you can get with IRs (not just for modeled strings, all IRs) seems to not really be present here.
> 
> Also included a clip of going flautando to scratch and back. I know whoever originally asked figured it out but it's a fun weird sound.


I see what you mean.

Anyone tried ensemble creation by changing the curves of parameters on multiple instances yet?


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## robgb (Apr 1, 2021)

fakemaxwell said:


> I'm going to disagree with the people who are saying that it's only a subtle change. I threw together a clip of a Scoreclub exercise I was in the middle of, and to me the differences are obvious. Profound? Probably not, but the "boxy" quality you can get with IRs (not just for modeled strings, all IRs) seems to not really be present here.
> 
> Also included a clip of going flautando to scratch and back. I know whoever originally asked figured it out but it's a fun weird sound.


To my mind, if you have to keep doing comparisons to try to prove a point, then the difference must not be all that obvious.


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## muziksculp (Apr 1, 2021)

robgb said:


> To my mind, if you have to keep doing comparisons to try to prove a point, then the difference must not be all that obvious.


https://vi-control.net/community/th...available-from-march-2021.104549/post-4795709


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## Noeticus (Apr 1, 2021)

Ahhh, but E-mc2 seems way obvious now.


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## Bruhelius (Apr 1, 2021)

Jamus said:


> I see what you mean.
> 
> Anyone tried ensemble creation by changing the curves of parameters on multiple instances yet?


Yeah, i can only recommend that too. I did it with swam strings V2 and a reaper plugin called midimapper X. Great fun!


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## robgb (Apr 1, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> https://vi-control.net/community/th...available-from-march-2021.104549/post-4795709


I don't care about the changes in the engine. I care about the sound. If it doesn't sound that much different, then it isn't worth paying for an upgrade until all those under the hood factors start to pay off.


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## muziksculp (Apr 1, 2021)

robgb said:


> I don't care about the changes in the engine. I care about the sound. If it doesn't sound that much different, then it isn't worth paying for an upgrade until all those under the hood factors start to pay off.


I understand where you are coming from. 

I have heard a slight improvement in the timbre of V3 compared V2, only from the short audio clips posted here. I can't really judge V3, the only way to really judge these V3 solo strings, is to use the instruments, and spend a few hours, days, weeks, experimenting, to see what are the possibilities, these are not sampled instruments, you just play and get the best results, they are modelled, which is a whole different ball game. I think you know that. Lots of variables at play. 

So, I wouldn't be rushing to judge V3.


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## robgb (Apr 1, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> So, I wouldn't be rushing to judge V3.


That's just it. I don't think I'm rushing. If I hear little to no improvement, it makes no sense to buy. And don't get me wrong, I LOVE these strings. I have been using them since version 1 and singing their praises. I just can't justify paying for an upgrade unless somebody manages to blow me away with a demo. Or better yet, Audio Modeling could let us download timed demos (they did it with their brass) and let me decide for myself.


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## muziksculp (Apr 1, 2021)

robgb said:


> That's just it. I don't think I'm rushing. If I hear little to no improvement, it makes no sense to buy. And don't get me wrong, I LOVE these strings. I have been using them since version 1 and singing their praises. I just can't justify paying for an upgrade unless somebody manages to blow me away with a demo.


I think you are rushing to judge V3.  

Why I say that ? Because it takes the new users of V3 at least a week, or two weeks to just digest the instrument's functionalities, and another few weeks to get good at making it sound as realistic, and wonderful as possible. Non of the new users is a pro at using V3 yet. It was just released yesterday.


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## robgb (Apr 1, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I think you are rushing to judge V3.
> 
> Why I say that ? Because it takes the new users of V3 at least a week, or two weeks to just digest the instrument's functionalities, and another few weeks to get good at making it sound as realistic, and wonderful as possible.


I would imagine the people who developed the product would know all the ends and outs of making it realistic sounding, but their demos sound exactly like their old demos. No noticeable change. That said, I'm not as concerned about "realism" as I am about tone. Has the tone actually improved?


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## muziksculp (Apr 1, 2021)

robgb said:


> I would imagine the people who developed the product would know all the ends and outs of making it realistic sounding, but their demos sound exactly like their old demos. No noticeable change.


I don't think the people who developed it are the people making the demos.


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## robgb (Apr 1, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I don't think the people who developed it are the people making the demos.


I'm pretty sure that's Stefano Lucato doing at least one of the demos.


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## tabulius (Apr 1, 2021)

When speaking about the tone, v2 has grainy high frequencies, like a compressed mp3, but v3 seems to be a much cleaner and higher quality. Cello seems to be much better imo.

If you can’t hear the difference then maybe v2 works well enough. Maybe if I’ll get some cash from future works, I’ll buy this. I just wonder if there is the V2 & V3 bundle package in the future? Or is there only the V3 option? I like the idea of getting the both.


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## Bruhelius (Apr 1, 2021)

Here's a first trial with the ensembles (smaller sketching ensemble):



I mapped a whole bunch of parameters to only the mod wheel but with various transfer curves. What you hear now is the chamber ensemble I made using various physically modeled solo instruments. I have a bigger ensemble (3x the size) that is still not operational yet with V3 of AM solo strings.

Didn't have much of a chance to really experiment with other articulations, but they are all in my template and can be switched via CC messages.

No time to tweak any of the modulation settings for this quick demo (only a few hours)...but "non-demo", i.e. more serious pieces for production quality would then be fully tweaked for vibrato, bow position and pressure. I promise 

I didn't do any arrangement here, just played in individual string voices over the piano part without monitoring properly (monitoring other sections while overdubbing takes too much of my CPU)


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## Jamus (Apr 1, 2021)

Bruhelius said:


> I didn't do any arrangement here, just played in individual string voices over the piano part without monitoring properly (monitoring other sections while overdubbing takes too much of my CPU)


Just to clarify, you played multiple (unison) violins in at the same time only with each having different curves on some of the parameters?

I like V2, and would happily purchase V3 if it were the case that a convincing ensemble could be made for each section.


----------



## Batrawi (Apr 1, 2021)

Bruhelius said:


> Here's a first trial with the ensembles (smaller sketching ensemble):
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You wrote this?! Excellent piece of music! Except the violin, everything else sounded good to me... maybe as the instrument's tone get lower it can better hide in a dense mix.
what's the 'ticking sound'? you can hear it noticeably @11-12 second


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## lelepar (Apr 2, 2021)

robgb said:


> That's just it. I don't think I'm rushing. If I hear little to no improvement, it makes no sense to buy. And don't get me wrong, I LOVE these strings. I have been using them since version 1 and singing their praises. I just can't justify paying for an upgrade unless somebody manages to blow me away with a demo. Or better yet, Audio Modeling could let us download timed demos (they did it with their brass) and let me decide for myself.


@robgb we DO provide time-limited demos. We have mentioned that on this forum several times.
Just write to our support at [email protected] and ask for an evaluation license.


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## widekeys (Apr 2, 2021)

Marc555 said:


> The subtlest subtleness for me as well. It's not like hearing a new instrument at all.


I thought the difference in the V3 was very noticeable. It has a lot more high-frequency details than V2. No more extensive multiband-compression and EQing needed!


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## Maarten (Apr 2, 2021)

FYI. I just played some Bach on the AM SWAM Cello. One pass, some mistakes, afterwards added expression and vibrato, just in 10 minutes. I love the improved sound. And the interface is much, much better.


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## Saxer (Apr 2, 2021)

lelepar said:


> Hi guys!
> April Fools' Day is almost over... you can login to SWAM products with no issues now
> 
> Best!


Sorry, it doesn't work here... reloaded and reinstalled instruments, restarted computer... again the log in window any time I open the GUI. Also in standalone mode.

Mac Catalina, Logic 10.6.1


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## dr-music (Apr 2, 2021)

Saxer said:


> Sorry, it doesn't work here...


It wasn't clearly explained by AM, but firstly you have to deauthorize your licenses at my.audiomodeling, then authorize them again.


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## lelepar (Apr 2, 2021)

dr-music said:


> It wasn't clearly explained by AM, but firstly you have to deauthorize your licenses at my.audiomodeling, then authorize them again.


@dr-music, @Saxer 
Indeed, on most cases it should work straight away. There are only a few cases where it's necessary to de-authorize the activations on the Customer Portal. We are sorry for those.


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## Saxer (Apr 2, 2021)

dr-music said:


> It wasn't clearly explained by AM, but firstly you have to deauthorize your licenses at my.audiomodeling, then authorize them again.


Ah, ok, I'll try that! Thanks!

*edit* Works fine now! Thanks again!


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## Markrs (Apr 2, 2021)

Been playing around with the iPad version and really enjoying it. I would consider getting the full bundle (I have a student discount code to soften the blow), but I am waiting on:

*June 2021: SWAM Solo Woodwinds v3 for Desktop and iPad*

As I would not want to then have to pay for an upgrade to v3 of the woodwinds. I have thought about waiting until ensembles have been released, but that is likely to take a year or more based on the roadmap.


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## Maarten (Apr 2, 2021)

Viola & Bass. Some 'jazz' with version 3.0. Very expressive IMHO.


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## richhickey (Apr 2, 2021)

SWAM Strings 3.0 first impressions:

I'm happy to pay for an update in order to feed more funds into this physical modeling research project, and recommend others interested in seeing it move forward do so as well. That said, I think the V3 changes are modest and don't address my biggest concerns/challenges with SWAM.

SWAM still struggles to deliver realistic body resonances and formants. Strings V3 has some different IRs but I can't say they are much better, just different. Some are _less_ resonant, and overall the tone of the bodies is still not very realistic or pleasant.

Hi-res MIDI CC support is welcome, but the emphasis continues to seem to be on making VIs you "perform" and less so on VIs you can control in other ways, e.g. via MIDI automation or notation. There are still no MIDI controllers analogous to violin bows, and having to strap on multiple controllers like a one man band in order to generate multiple dimensions of control is tedious at best. (I have a LinnStrument, Gecko, 2 breath controllers and multiple expression pedals, no combination of which behaves realistically like a violin bow and left hand fingers on a neck). 

Missing still is the ability to control Attack Ramp Speed in real time via MIDI. This critical parameter needs to be moved around to keep velocity-driven attacks from the repetitive chiffing you hear in all the non-breath-controlled demos. Similarly there's no control for release times, which are quite unrealistically abrupt unless you draw in or perform every release envelope prior to note end.

Previously I've had to build my own scripts to generate attack and release envelopes and extended durations from simpler velocity+expression performances/notation, which I think would be something the VI should offer and model itself, ADSR envelopes being a standard part of music synthesis since forever. More focus could be placed on triggerable performance modeling reducing the user performance burden.

Additionally I've had to do extensive formant-modeling EQ to get bearable sounds e.g. especially of the cellos. I think AM needs to take a fresh approach to body modeling. SWAM brass suffers from a similar problem, all the instruments sound too similar due to insufficient modeling of the bodies.

These problems will still need to be worked around in V3. In addition, it seems like we've lost some control, e.g. over the detache hold/accent/fade behavior.

In short, yes, some modest enhancements but not what I was hoping for.


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## Maarten (Apr 2, 2021)

Another thingie. A SWAM Violin v.3 as toplayer with other strings in Percy Faiths: "Theme from a Summer Place"


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## Bruhelius (Apr 2, 2021)

Jamus said:


> Just to clarify, you played multiple (unison) violins in at the same time only with each having different curves on some of the parameters?
> 
> I like V2, and would happily purchase V3 if it were the case that a convincing ensemble could be made for each section.


Yes that is my approach for sketching. V3 is still work in progress in my template. You can make a chamber ensemble using just the provided IRs and some spatialization and variable midi delays for each solo instrument. One of the reasons why my violins sound less convincing for the moment is because of the metallic character of my vst VirtualSoundstage 2. I might try eareckon’s verb instead.
Also, i might have messed with the tuning by accident so i need to check that later.


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## jvsax (Apr 2, 2021)

I think Audio Modeling did a great job with this update, I just replaced my V2 strings with V3 on this tune. The new instrument presets provide some nice, varied options, and I like the improved (less-fuzzy) tone which was most noticeable on sustained notes.

_Skyline_


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## Leandro Gardini (Apr 2, 2021)

I guess Audio Modeling has reached, or almost reached, the ceiling of improvement in physical modeling. 
I can hear a small improvement in the timbre but there's no modeled instrument out there that really sounds like the real thing. There's always a slight feeling on synth in there and a lack of acoustic imperfection. 

The sound is definitely the most important part but a good GUI always helps the users get the best of the instrument. Is it only me or is there somebody else who thinks this new GUI is a downgrade of the old one?


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## Monkberry (Apr 2, 2021)

richhickey said:


> SWAM Strings 3.0 first impressions:
> 
> I'm happy to pay for an update in order to feed more funds into this physical modeling research project, and recommend others interested in seeing it move forward do so as well. That said, I think the V3 changes are modest and don't address my biggest concerns/challenges with SWAM.
> 
> ...


I have to agree with this. I certainly want to like this new update but when listening to comparisons with V2, I don't hear anything in particular to make me feel it's improving regarding tonality. With V2, I always find myself working with EQ to fix something that's either missing or is over abundant and even that will change depending on the range and string. There are so many nuances and variables that are exposed with solo instruments, so in all fairness, it is an ambitious endeavor. This is not a criticism of Audio Modeling, I'm a fan and think they are a fairly forward-thinking company ahead of the curve and modeling technology is relatively still in its infancy stage in comparison to sampling technology. I still may update before September to take advantage of the bundle discount and get to know the new interface.


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## Noeticus (Apr 2, 2021)

Just wait for V4.


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## Noeticus (Apr 2, 2021)

For me, this is proof that even v2 is amazing!!!


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## Maarten (Apr 2, 2021)

String Time for Stravinsky.


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## Bruhelius (Apr 2, 2021)

leogardini said:


> I guess Audio Modeling has reached, or almost reached, the ceiling of improvement in physical modeling.
> I can hear a small improvement in the timbre but there's no modeled instrument out there that really sounds like the real thing. There's always a slight feeling on synth in there and a lack of acoustic imperfection.
> 
> The sound is definitely the most important part but a good GUI always helps the users get the best of the instrument. Is it only me or is there somebody else who thinks this new GUI is a downgrade of the old one?


I agree, however i also disagree. Eventually with time we will be able to model imperfections and realtime changes in IRs. There are also bowing controllers being developed and we have more microphone modeling and advanced ER that are in development at IRCAM. I think that with AI we will be able to map human performances into controller streams and thereby refine the physical models to match in situ performances better. It’s a huge R&D effort, but it may find buyers.


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## Ben H (Apr 2, 2021)

leogardini said:


> Is it only me or is there somebody else who thinks this new GUI is a downgrade of the old one?


I am not a fan of the V3 GUI either, but apparently we are in the minority.

I guess that's the cost of progress.


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## muziksculp (Apr 2, 2021)

leogardini said:


> Is it only me or is there somebody else who thinks this new GUI is a downgrade of the old one?


Are you referring to the aesthetics/look of the new GUI, i.e. Color Scheme, General Design, Shapes, ..etc. or Functionality, organization, and access to parameters, editing ease, ..etc. ?


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## brunodegazio (Apr 2, 2021)

leogardini said:


> Is it only me or is there somebody else who thinks this new GUI is a downgrade of the old one?


I totally agree. Programming the instrument with this GUI is like trying to conduct an orchestra though a keyhole - tunnel vision.

The old GUI had its problems, but at least you could view and edit ALL the parameters in just two pages. With the new GUI, they're scattered across 10-20 pages or more.

And don't get me started about the file handling! Where are the presets files? How do you delete a file? How can I see the date of a file? Why does a new preset load without asking for user confirmation first? 

There's also the weird problem with the MIDI Mapping page timing out under some conditions. The "Curve" editor page does it too. 

ENGINE
I've only had a day, and so far only been testing the Cello, but my tentative opinion is that the engine has mostly improved, with a lot more detail in the high frequencies, slightly more range in the bow position and some other parameters, and a few nice new features, e.g. programmable pizzicato tone. The natural harmonics simulation sounds fantastic and will surely get some use. 

On the downside, the attacks are less variable now. Unless I'm missing something, I haven't been able to get the beautifully smooth note fade-in that was possible with v2. There's always a little bit of bite on the start of the note.


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## fakemaxwell (Apr 2, 2021)

brunodegazio said:


> And don't get me started about the file handling! Where are the presets files ? How do you rename them? How do you delete a file?


It looks like the factory presets can't be edited. However you can use one to create a new preset, and then on the main page of MIDI where you choose presets you can export that preset to a file, which you can import to any of the other string instruments.

Personally, I like this GUI much more. There's different pages yes but they all make sense, whereas viewing 100 parameters at once on a tiny plugin window always took forever to parse. Different strokes, I guess.


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## Leandro Gardini (Apr 2, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Are you referring to the aesthetics/look of the new GUI, i.e. Color Scheme, General Design, Shapes, ..etc. or Functionality, organization, and access to parameters, editing ease, ..etc. ?


I haven’t tested it yet, so i cannot comment on the functionalities. But the V2 look was way better than this one in my opinion.


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## robgb (Apr 2, 2021)

lelepar said:


> @robgb we DO provide time-limited demos. We have mentioned that on this forum several times.
> Just write to our support at [email protected] and ask for an evaluation license.


Thank you. I will do that.


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## widekeys (Apr 3, 2021)

As with every new GUI it took some time to get used to. I had to search for the keyswitches (Advanced->MIDI->scroll down) because I thought the "rebow" keyswitch is essential for performing. But I don't really tinker much with the instrument once everything is set up (and saved in a default preset).
And a HUGE improvement was made towards easier MIDI mapping. Setting up my controllers is easy and the curve feature inside the plugin is really helpful.


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## DANIELE (Apr 3, 2021)

I'm having some random crashes on Reaper especially when I bring the plugin from offline to online. In the event viewer I have this:

Faulting application name: reaper.exe, version: 6.2.6.0, time stamp: 0x60620bf0
Faulting module name: SWAM Double Bass 3.vst3, version: 3.0.0.0, time stamp: 0x60637232
Exception code: 0xc0000005
Fault offset: 0x00000000003b1656
Faulting process id: 0x3604
Faulting application start time: 0x01d72864ebc5921e
Faulting application path: F:\Musica\REAPER (x64)\reaper.exe
Faulting module path: C:\Program Files\Common Files\VST3\SWAM\Strings\SWAM Double Bass 3.vst3
Report Id: 1973665d-7707-4b96-87f4-c7d8645dba68
Faulting package full name: 
Faulting package-relative application ID:


----------



## brunodegazio (Apr 3, 2021)

I know that Emmanuel and other knowledgable AM support people monitor this forum, so I thought I would post these questions publicly in case they're of interest to others. 

*1. How to get pizzicato on multiple open strings?
*
I have set Pizz.Poly mode to "poly", and Alt.Fingering to "Nut and Open”. But the fingering algorithm always insists on playing at least one of the notes stopped. How to get two Open notes, (or even better, a complete four-string Open note strum?)


*2. Where is the “Noteoff Sustain Mode” parameter, which is so important to getting effective results in Detache (sustain pedal) mode? *

The "Noteoff Sust.Mode” parameter used to allow access to the options for “Hold (normal)” , “End with Accent” and “End with Fadeout”. 

The plugin now seems to always be in “Hold normal” mode. But I found that “End with Fadeout” mode was required for a variety of Detache bowings. 

*3. Is there a way to turn off the automatic timeout when editing Curves or MIDI Assignments? *

The timeout behaviour on these pages is improved from the SWAM-B implementation, but they still timeout under some circumstances.

*4. How can I replicate the Volume cc response as it was in v2? *

The Volume CC response in V3 is quite different than it was in V2. I’ve tried to simulate the old behaviour with the new curve shaping functions, but there seems to be no way to do it very well. In v2, the Volume dropped linearly from 0 db to -42 dB, then immediately to minus infinity. The new version allows more subtle volume controls at very low levels, which is nice, but the difference in cc response means that my mixes in old projects are badly out of balance. 

*5. Is the new "Early Reflection” parameter the same as the old 'Reverb'? IF I turn it down to 0, does that effectively turn it off (and lessen the corresponding CPU load?)


6. How do I delete a preset? Where are the preset files stored? *
I can see that you have adopted IOS style file handling, i.e. hiding all file details from the user. That’s needed for the iPad version, I guess, but I respectively submit that it is a mistake in in the MacOS version, where professional users expect to be able to find, copy, delete, and backup their files. 



On the positive side, I would like to make the following observations: 

*1. High frequency detail in the sound is more lively and realistic.

2. Continuous control of the harmonics sounds great and works well. 

3.* *Allowing different Instrument models to be loaded while maintaining the current CC assignments* is a big step forward in usability. 

*4. "Breath Controller mode" seems to have greatly improved the attack playability*, 
at least with Akai EWI-5000 and Yamaha WX5. Thanks.


----------



## DANIELE (Apr 3, 2021)

Am I the only one that is having clips and pops in Reaper using those instruments? The cpu seems to be really low in general and so is the SSD, I really don't know why it performs like this, it seems it does this only when I play it live (record button armed and using keyboard and breath controller), if I wrote a midi item and I unarm the track then it seems to play fine.

EDIT

Same thing for the standalone version, especially with the cello. So it is not a Reaper fault.


----------



## Nextmidi (Apr 3, 2021)

DANIELE said:


> Am I the only one that is having clips and pops in Reaper using those instruments? The cpu seems to be really low in general and so is the SSD, I really don't know why it performs like this, it seems it does this only when I play it live (record button armed and using keyboard and breath controller), if I wrote a midi item and I unarm the track then it seems to play fine.


Do you maybe have Live FX Multiprocessing turned off? This can be a problem especially if you're playing more than one instrument at a time.


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## DANIELE (Apr 3, 2021)

Nextmidi said:


> Do you maybe have Live FX Multiprocessing turned off? This can be a problem especially if you're playing more than one instrument at a time.


Thank you but I have it enabled, I can play even 20 Infinite Brass instruments at the same time without any problem for example, with SSV3 one is enough instead.

As I said when I edited the post I have the same behavior with the standalone version so it is not Reaper. I'm at 256 samples buffer size with 48 kHz, no problem with all my other instruments/libaries, even with the old V2 version of SWAM instruments.
I noticed I have the same problem with SWAM Brass, I didn't noticed it before because I didn't use it a lot. I just tried.


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## DANIELE (Apr 3, 2021)

Holy...I have the same problems on woodwinds, what the...!?

I remember I didn't have this a long time ago, but all my other instruments work fine and as I said before the cpu is fine, how could it be possible? How could I am the only one having this issue?


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## X-Bassist (Apr 3, 2021)

Saxer said:


> It's all about the emotional impact.


Thanks Saxer, this is IT in a sentence.

Many composers don’t believe it, but besides what’s on the score page, and the playing, etc.... which def add emotional impact....

The mixing adds emotional impact. The tone of the instrument, the reverb it’s in, the things that surround it (or don’t). Check out a movie where everything drops out except a string line or sound effect (usually during a slo-mo shot) and you’ll see, even dropping sound out can have an emotional impact. Someone yelling “Noooo!” With a cello or violin line under them (and nothing else) has been used countless times because it works, and can be varied (the line of dialog or instrument used) to keep it from being overused.

So those choices, even the tone of a Cello or Violin VI, can make or break the moment. I’ve remixed many of those moments because the composer didn’t realize how critical the tone of the instrument is in moments like that. There are other examples in films and TV where these moments matter. And a synthy VI isn’t going to cut it. And often during a mix there isn’t time left to find a violinist or setup a recording session (I know, I’ve tried to convince them to do it, but they don’t see the value for one scene the way we do).

Yes, all this is about emotional impact. If I’m picking out sound effects and birds chirping in the background for their emotional impact (which I do) then believe me, the solo cello or violin makes an even bigger impact, and should undergo even greater scrutiny. 😄


----------



## Marc555 (Apr 3, 2021)

richhickey said:


> SWAM Strings 3.0 first impressions:
> 
> I'm happy to pay for an update in order to feed more funds into this physical modeling research project, and recommend others interested in seeing it move forward do so as well. That said, I think the V3 changes are modest and don't address my biggest concerns/challenges with SWAM.
> 
> ...


I agree to the above.
My main concern is, as you mention, having to be a "one man band" to perform the instrument correctly. The user performance for an adequate expressivity is challenging.


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## Marc555 (Apr 3, 2021)

leogardini said:


> I guess Audio Modeling has reached, or almost reached, the ceiling of improvement in physical modeling.
> I can hear a small improvement in the timbre but there's no modeled instrument out there that really sounds like the real thing. There's always a slight feeling on synth in there and a lack of acoustic imperfection.
> 
> The sound is definitely the most important part but a good GUI always helps the users get the best of the instrument. Is it only me or is there somebody else who thinks this new GUI is a downgrade of the old one?


At first, I thought, who is he to say that physical modeling has reached its ceiling? Almost all declaration in the effect of limitations of technologies have been proven wrong in the past. However... I tend to agree. Having a hear at TTC voices as an example.


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## Noeticus (Apr 3, 2021)

It will only reach the ceiling when no one can tell the difference between the modeled and the real.

But, the problem then will be that it will enter the debate about which real one sounds better than another real one.


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## muziksculp (Apr 3, 2021)

Noeticus said:


> It will only reach the ceiling when no one can tell the difference between the modeled and the real.
> 
> But, the problem then will be that it will enter the debate about which real one sounds better than another real one.


I wonder if I will live to see that day.


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## Noeticus (Apr 3, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I wonder if I will live to see that day.


You will, because in some blind tests (that I did) people already cannot tell the difference.


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## muziksculp (Apr 3, 2021)

Noeticus said:


> You will, because in some blind tests (that I did) people already cannot tell the difference.


I think it is harder to emulate solo strings, but easier to fool the average listener with Ensemble Strings in general. But sometimes a good Solo Strings emulation can fool some listeners as well today.

The problem is fooling us VI-C forum members.


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## robgb (Apr 3, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I think it is harder to emulate solo strings, but easier to fool the average listener with Ensemble Strings in general. But sometimes a good Solo Strings emulation can fool some listeners as well today.
> 
> The problem is fooling us VI-C forum members.


No matter which version you use, I think the average listener would be completely fooled by these solo strings. In fact, when I did a project using the strings a couple years back, the singer on the project—a longtime broadway professional—thought they were real. It was only the audio engineer who noticed that they weren't.


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## Saxer (Apr 3, 2021)

@lelepar

Is it possible to set an offset to midi controllers? If I build sections out of the solo instruments I would like to control the vibrato speed without having all instruments in a synched parallel LFO mode. It would help if there were individual speed windows per instrument to make all faster with one controller but not exactly the same Hz-rate. Same for sloppy tuning or timing.


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## brunodegazio (Apr 4, 2021)

Saxer said:


> @lelepar
> 
> Is it possible to set an offset to midi controllers? If I build sections out of the solo instruments I would like to control the vibrato speed without having all instruments in a synched parallel LFO mode. It would help if there were individual speed windows per instrument to make all faster with one controller but not exactly the same Hz-rate. Same for sloppy tuning or timing.


On the MIDI Assignments/Curve editing page you can offset the low and high limits so that a given MIDI cc value will produce a different result in LFO speed. That will produce what you want, but it means that you need to edit (and save) the Vibrato Rate curve uniquely for each instance in the string section. 

Tuning and timing are much trickier. In my own string section experiments I found no way to do these within the instrument (AM Strings 2.1) I had to write a script for my sequencer that allowed individual timing delays and tuning offsets per instance. You can hear how that works in this thread. 

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/vivaldi-string-orchestra-using-swam-solo-strings.107091/


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## ChristianM (Apr 4, 2021)

Noeticus said:


> It will only reach the ceiling when no one can tell the difference between the modeled and the real.
> 
> But, the problem then will be that it will enter the debate about which real one sounds better than another real one.


+1000


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## GNP (Apr 4, 2021)

I haven't got any of this stuff yet, but seeing how lots are saying how "synthy" sounding it is, I'm just gonna go ahead and say, "Hey, why not? Could be a good thing! In fact I might double this "synthy" stuff with other actual SYNTHY stuff and get really cool sounding, unconventional sounds!


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## doctoremmet (Apr 4, 2021)

GNP said:


> I haven't got any of this stuff yet, but seeing how lots are saying how "synthy" sounding it is, I'm just gonna go ahead and say, "Hey, why not? Could be a good thing! In fact I might double this "synthy" stuff with other actual SYNTHY stuff and get really cool sounding, unconventional sounds!


Just owning the synthiness of existence like a boss! - Brian Eno’s oblique strategies deck needs an update. I am proud of you!


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## GNP (Apr 4, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Just owning the synthiness of existence like a boss! - Brian Eno’s oblique strategies deck needs an update. I am proud of you!


Lololol


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## Saxer (Apr 4, 2021)

brunodegazio said:


> On the MIDI Assignments/Curve editing page you can offset the low and high limits so that a given MIDI cc value will produce a different result in LFO speed. That will produce what you want, but it means that you need to edit (and save) the Vibrato Rate curve uniquely for each instance in the string section.
> 
> Tuning and timing are much trickier. In my own string section experiments I found no way to do these within the instrument (AM Strings 2.1) I had to write a script for my sequencer that allowed individual timing delays and tuning offsets per instance. You can hear how that works in this thread.
> 
> https://vi-control.net/community/threads/vivaldi-string-orchestra-using-swam-solo-strings.107091/


It sounds great! I made little random +/-10 cent offsets in the microtuning page per instrument. And I use Unify to combine sections in one track. Unify has a jitter MIDI plugin that randomly delays note starts up to 150ms (good value is around 90). I also double it with BBCSO which has a playable performance legato patch and adds some "section" feeling. Still work in progress though.


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## Jamus (Apr 4, 2021)

Saxer said:


> It sounds great! I made little random +/-10 cent offsets in the microtuning page per instrument. And I use Unify to combine sections in one track. Unify has a jitter MIDI plugin that randomly delays note starts up to 150ms (good value is around 90). I also double it with BBCSO which has a playable performance legato patch and adds some "section" feeling. Still work in progress though.


This is sort of how I've been using V2 in Reaper. You can put a MIDI delay plugin before SWAM, assign an LFO to the time slider and set the range (10-60ms abouts) and frequency, and bobs your uncle. Different frequency for each instrument so none of them ever quite attack at the same time.

Seriously Reaper has great plugins in the JS section for humanizing. Between a MIDI delay w/LFO, Velocity and timing humanizer (for velocity only), and MIDI tool v2 (has a random pitch wheel percentage) you can create plenty of variation. Only thing I don't have or am unaware of is a plugin that will let me visually modify CC curves, which is one of the things that interests me about SWAM Strings v3


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## robgb (Apr 4, 2021)

GNP said:


> I haven't got any of this stuff yet, but seeing how lots are saying how "synthy" sounding it is, I'm just gonna go ahead and say, "Hey, why not? Could be a good thing! In fact I might double this "synthy" stuff with other actual SYNTHY stuff and get really cool sounding, unconventional sounds!


It doesn't really sound synthy. That's more of a confirmation bias kind of thing, or simply people playing it in a synthy way. A few years back someone did a blind listening test, asking people to name the real violin, and the majority thought the audio modeling violin was the real thing. You can't have that bias if there's nothing to point you toward it.


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## sarmad (Apr 6, 2021)

Hello everyone. I play the Linnstrument, and I did a review of Swam Strings V3. This is my first review ever, so it's gonna be full of mistakes. Please check it out, and let me know which areas I can improve. The new sound engine sounds much more natural sounding to me. Also when you play it with an MPE controller, like the Linnstrument. It's super expressive! I hope you enjoy the review.


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## Noeticus (Apr 6, 2021)

sarmad said:


> Hello everyone. I play the Linnstrument, and I did a review of Swam Strings V3. This is my first review ever, so it's gonna be full of mistakes. Please check it out, and let me know which areas I can improve. The new sound engine sounds much more natural sounding to me. Also when you play it with an MPE controller, like the Linnstrument. It's super expressive! I hope you enjoy the review.



Where is the 1080p version of this?


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## sarmad (Apr 6, 2021)

Noeticus said:


> Where is the 1080p version of this?


YouTube is processing it, should be up shortly


----------



## Ziffles (Apr 6, 2021)

sarmad said:


> Hello everyone. I play the Linnstrument, and I did a review of Swam Strings V3. This is my first review ever, so it's gonna be full of mistakes. Please check it out, and let me know which areas I can improve. The new sound engine sounds much more natural sounding to me. Also when you play it with an MPE controller, like the Linnstrument. It's super expressive! I hope you enjoy the review.



Good demonstration and that's a very cool MIDI controller, but I'm getting a lot of comb filter artifacts when the strings come in. It sounds like it's running at a low audio bitrate, and it makes it hard to hear the subtle stuff, even at 2160p.


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## sarmad (Apr 7, 2021)

Ziffles said:


> Good demonstration and that's a very cool MIDI controller, but I'm getting a lot of comb filter artifacts when the strings come in. It sounds like it's running at a low audio bitrate, and it makes it hard to hear the subtle stuff, even at 2160p.


I agree the subtle stuff doesn't come through. Maybe it's youtube's encoding. I'll upload some wav clips and leave the links in the description. I don't hear any comb filtering artifacts at my end, can you please also check it again on another device. Thank you for the feedback.


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## Markrs (Apr 7, 2021)

sarmad said:


> I agree the subtle stuff doesn't come through. Maybe it's youtube's encoding. I'll upload some wav clips and leave the links in the description. I don't hear any comb filtering artifacts at my end, can you please also check it again on another device. Thank you for the feedback.


I did hear them as well (listening on a iPad Pro using the native app) for some reason YouTube seemed to be overly compressing the audio.


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## sarmad (Apr 7, 2021)

Markrs said:


> I did hear them as well (listening on a iPad Pro using the native app) for some reason YouTube seemed to be overly compressing the audio.


That is worrisome. I'll look into how I can address the issue. Thank you.


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## shawnsingh (Apr 7, 2021)

Curious what timestamp in the video is a good example of the weird comb filtering?


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## Maarten (Apr 9, 2021)

One week after the launch.
I adapted the first 16 bars of Bach's BWV997 (for lute or lutehauptwerk) for Cello & Violin, using SWAM Strings V3. 
'Live' performed & sculpted afterwards. Lots of tweaking.


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## Markrs (Apr 12, 2021)

I think this sounds fantastic.


----------



## muziksculp (Apr 12, 2021)




----------



## muziksculp (Apr 12, 2021)




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## Arbee (Apr 12, 2021)

muziksculp said:


>



Eek  that violin EQ hurts! Sadly I haven't heard a demo yet that makes me want to get amongst this. Being such a lover of the trumpet and saxes I was really hoping this update would sway me.


----------



## tabulius (Apr 12, 2021)

Arbee said:


> Eek  that violin EQ hurts! Sadly I haven't heard a demo yet that makes me want to get amongst this. Being such a lover of the trumpet and saxes I was really hoping this update would sway me.


Luckily you don't have to use the same EQ settings and do it better.

Personally, I think the V3 strings sound great. There are awful demos for sure, but those who know how to handle them, sound pretty good. A few years back I didn't really care about Audio Modeling or Sample Modeling products that much, but now I'm impressed.


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## Bollen (Apr 13, 2021)

Arbee said:


> Eek  that violin EQ hurts! Sadly I haven't heard a demo yet that makes me want to get amongst this. Being such a lover of the trumpet and saxes I was really hoping this update would sway me.


You're gripe is with the EQ? What about those vibrating releases??? Surely they must be an omission of some sort... And what about the MOD not going all the way up? I think this has bigger issues and who uses the EQ inside a plugin anyway... Or the reverb for that matter?


----------



## tabulius (Apr 14, 2021)

sarmad said:


> Hello everyone. I play the Linnstrument, and I did a review of Swam Strings V3. This is my first review ever, so it's gonna be full of mistakes. Please check it out, and let me know which areas I can improve. The new sound engine sounds much more natural sounding to me. Also when you play it with an MPE controller, like the Linnstrument. It's super expressive! I hope you enjoy the review.



Thanks for the review. Your Linnstrument and Roli Block(?) setup looks like an interesting way to control these instruments and seems like a great combo. I was wondering what resolution the Block pressure expression is. Someone commented that it wasn't precise enough so he returned it. I'm trying to find some kind of an XYZ controller solution for CC and expression control and that tiny Roli box looks pretty neat.


----------



## brunodegazio (Apr 14, 2021)

Bollen said:


> What about those vibrating releases??? Surely they must be an omission of some sort... And what about the MOD not going all the way up? I think this has bigger issues and who uses the EQ inside a plugin anyway...


The vibrating releases can be stopped by pulling the mod wheel down. Or they can be left in by leaving the mod wheel up. So easy.

It's not uncommon for a live player to vibrate a note ringing off. Or sometimes not. The AudioModleing philosophy seems to be "Let the player choose" - and that seems right to me.

The Mod Wheel range is easily extended on the MIDI Mapping page. It just so happened that the preset @muziksculp was using in his walkthrough video had a slightly narrowed range.


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## muziksculp (Apr 14, 2021)

brunodegazio said:


> The Mod Wheel range is easily extended on the MIDI Mapping page. It just so happened that the preset @muziksculp was using in his walkthrough video had a slightly narrowed range.


Hi,

I just posted that video, I didn't make it.


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## shawnsingh (Apr 14, 2021)

brunodegazio said:


> The vibrating releases can be stopped by pulling the mod wheel down. Or they can be left in by leaving the mod wheel up. So easy.
> 
> It's not uncommon for a live player to vibrate a note ringing off. Or sometimes not. The AudioModleing philosophy seems to be "Let the player choose" - and that seems right to me.



I didn't want to raise this point myself since I haven't yet had a chance to play around with v3, so I have no idea if it sounds like the way a player would use post-release vibrato. But as a violin player in a past era I can confirm, post-release vibrato (i.e. bow is off the string, or even after a pizzicato pluck) is a real concept in performance for strings. I don't have a strong opinion whether it actually makes a difference for an audience/recording - I can see arguments on both sides. Maybe, I can suggest that it does make a difference at least for low strings pizzicato.

Attempting to be objective about it, I think post-release vibrato for the sake of vibrato is not really the point of performing that way. The main effect of it is more that it can extend (or dampen?) the resonating vibration of the string (depends significantly on what part of the finger pad is used, whether you have a softer area that may act more like a "palm mute" or a harder fret-like pressure on the string). A secondary effect would be the ensemble detune effect of many players using asynchronous vibrato.


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## sarmad (Apr 14, 2021)

tabulius said:


> Thanks for the review. Your Linnstrument and Roli Block(?) setup looks like an interesting way to control these instruments and seems like a great combo. I was wondering what resolution the Block pressure expression is. Someone commented that it wasn't precise enough so he returned it. I'm trying to find some kind of an XYZ controller solution for CC and expression control and that tiny Roli box looks pretty neat.


Thank you Tabulius. Roli Block's pressure is a CC control, and not NRPN, so technically it's not a high-resolution control, but I find the response very natural, precise, and intuitive, in the context of Swam instruments. I have tried Expressive E Lie, TEC BBC 2, the regular fader controls (Control Freak), Mod wheel on the keyboard, and midi foot pedals as well. I found Roli Lightpad Block to be the most expressive of the lot. If you intend to use x or y for expression instead of z(pressure), I'd suggest you get a hold of the discontinued Roli Lightpad block, which had a smooth surface and was better suited for XY control. The new Lightpad has a great feel when it comes to pressure. I hope this helps.


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## DANIELE (Apr 17, 2021)

Could someone with 3.0.1 installed try to pull down the "Bow Pressure" all way down to flautando and let me know what happens?

Thank you.


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## jimbee (Apr 17, 2021)

DANIELE said:


> Could someone with 3.0.1 installed try to pull down the "Bow Pressure" all way down to flautando and let me know what happens?
> 
> Thank you.


It seems to work like the 3.0 version. Ranges from 0.00 to 1.00 and is labled flautando and scratch at the extremes. The MP3 starts at bow pressure .50, descends to 0.00 and back up to 1.00. Also some bow position changing that covers sul pont to sul tasto.


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## Noeticus (Apr 17, 2021)

DANIELE said:


> Could someone with 3.0.1 installed try to pull down the "Bow Pressure" all way down to flautando and let me know what happens?
> 
> Thank you.


When I use Violin 3.1, I do not see anything wrong.


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## DANIELE (Apr 17, 2021)

When I play flautando, especially on the violin, I notice that the sound after a few notes became more similar to harmonics, it is a strange behavior, I don't know if it is normal.

EDIT
Here's what I mean, listen to the two first notes, than listen to the repeated notes after them, do you hear the difference? Is there an expected resonance with strings flautando? I'm not expert so I hope some real player could answer me.


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## DANIELE (Apr 17, 2021)

It doesn't happen if I detach the notes, so I think it is a legato problem, I also tried a reset but nothing changed.


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## Noeticus (Apr 17, 2021)

There are a lot of variables in SWAM.... so perhaps ask Audio Modeling about it.


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## DANIELE (Apr 17, 2021)

Noeticus said:


> There are a lot of variables in SWAM.... so perhaps ask Audio Modeling about it.


I already did it, but in the meantime I wanted to compare with you. So do you confirm that you doesn't have this behavior? For me it behaves like this even in standalone with standard settings, the only thing I change is in the input method (breath controller).


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## widekeys (Apr 17, 2021)

DANIELE said:


> When I play flautando, especially on the violin, I notice that the sound after a few notes became more similar to harmonics, it is a strange behavior, I don't know if it is normal.
> 
> EDIT
> Here's what I mean, listen to the two first notes, than listen to the repeated notes after them, do you hear the difference? Is there an expected resonance with strings flautando? I'm not expert so I hope some real player could answer me.


Sounds intended. If you play close to the bridge, this will be even more pronounced with the additional overtone richness. Try solo cello ponticello flautando with tremolo. Nice effect.


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## shawnsingh (Apr 17, 2021)

DANIELE said:


> I already did it, but in the meantime I wanted to compare with you. So do you confirm that you doesn't have this behavior? For me it behaves like this even in standalone with standard settings, the only thing I change is in the input method (breath controller).


I feel like I had that behavior in v2 as well? 

My sense was that probably some more parameters need to be automated in the right way to make it sound more natural, like (1) perhaps bow speed may need to be increased, and (2) bow pressure should be varied more chaotically, to emulate that a real performer will be less consistent when using very light pressure. (3) flautando often implies sul tasto, too

Sorry, I'm unable to try these ideas myself any time soon, but if be interested to know if you try it and if it helps at all.


----------



## Bruhelius (Apr 17, 2021)

Here is a demo I made (a segment from one of my piano pieces, then arranged for strings)...featuring, among other things, the AM SWAM strings v3 and v2...



I do admit there is some secret sauce mixed in for texturing, but 75% of it is pure synth, and thus fully controllable. The programming work is a rough job, where I made only one midi CC (modwheel) as feed, and mapped it to a bunch of parameters with varying transfer function curves (you can use the JSFX plugin "midi mapper X" in Reaper for this). There are many humanization FX running as well, for blurring the timing, vibrato, tuning and bowing, and these can be exaggerated on the fly using some additional MIDI CCs.
The arrangement is always split in two divisi midi streams for each group (VI1, VI2, VA, CE and BA), so I have a total of 10 tracks, plus a Pianoteq part. I performed in the MIDI for divisi A only, and did a lousy job with the modwheel sometimes. I didn't feel like tweaking much of it in post, so there are some discontinuities in the beginning of the piece. Applying smoother curves in the midi CC lane should fix this.

The instrument placement is done using the VST VirtualSoundStage 2 (recording studio with shorter ERs, dry/wet set to 11 o'clock). All reverb and ERs are switched off in the plugins. I applied 10% of algorithmic "glue" reverb to all strings. Alternatively, I would love to try this with a nice Altiverb or MIR Pro setting. My approach is to work first with a smaller sketching ensemble (small sections) and when I am happy with the result, just run the same midi through the rendering ensemble (larger sections). The output is routed to STEMS and can then be remixed if desired.

Needless to say, I can switch between various articulations using Reaticulate and the midi CCs as outlined in the AM strings manual. 

Next, I want to try a more uptempo tango, to showcase a bit more how seamless the articulation switching can be, and how parameters like bow position, vibrato (intensity and rate), tremolo speed and subtle pitch bend could be used to obtain more nuances in the performances of each section.


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## DANIELE (Apr 18, 2021)

widekeys said:


> Sounds intended. If you play close to the bridge, this will be even more pronounced with the additional overtone richness. Try solo cello ponticello flautando with tremolo. Nice effect.


The strange thing is that it doesn't happen as soon as I play but after a few notes, this is the strange thing like some sort of overtones accumulation (I don't know how to say it).
This is the thing that is bothering me more. If you listen to the first to notes or to the detached example you don't hear that effect, if you listen to the legato part you can feel like it comes as soon as I start playing legato.



shawnsingh said:


> I feel like I had that behavior in v2 as well?
> 
> My sense was that probably some more parameters need to be automated in the right way to make it sound more natural, like (1) perhaps bow speed may need to be increased, and (2) bow pressure should be varied more chaotically, to emulate that a real performer will be less consistent when using very light pressure. (3) flautando often implies sul tasto, too
> 
> Sorry, I'm unable to try these ideas myself any time soon, but if be interested to know if you try it and if it helps at all.


I tried to look at the settings but they are a lot, I must find were speed settings are. I also tried to move the pressure always remaining on flautando but the behavior is the same.

Based on my experience flautando shouldn't change so much in a legato phrase. I also found that this effect is velocity sensitive, it happens in detached notes too with low velocity. And this behavior is good because I decide the sound. The strange thing is that it happens with velocity all the way up in legato phrases.


----------



## widekeys (Apr 18, 2021)

DANIELE said:


> The strange thing is that it doesn't happen as soon as I play but after a few notes, this is the strange thing like some sort of overtones accumulation (I don't know how to say it).
> This is the thing that is bothering me more. If you listen to the first to notes or to the detached example you don't hear that effect, if you listen to the legato part you can feel like it comes as soon as I start playing legato.
> 
> 
> ...


On bowed instruments, the attack of a note may sound different than the sustain due to difference in bow pressures and bow position. In SWAM Violins there is an attack control somewhere in the settings.
It is modeled pretty convincingly to the point that on some occasions you will find that the string stops vibrating and you just produce an "empty bow sound" (combination of bowpressure, expression and rosin settings). I was surprised, that SWAM strings captured this delicate detail. I couldn't reproduce it with V3, but in V2 I remember hearing it sometimes when experimenting.

However, here is a real sul pont sound: 

The overtone-richeness near the bridge is quite remarkable. You can use this to your advantage to enrich your sound in high-energy phrases, play closer to the bridge esp. when playing in higher finger positions. I read somewhere in a paper on cello music, that playing in a higher position on a cello requires you to also bow closer to the bridge to always hit "the sweet spot" of the string for maximum resonance.

I attached a little doodle:
0:00 harmonics
0:09 flautando sul tasto
0:20 flautando "normal" bow position
0:28 flautando sul pont
0:38 ff 4th position bowed closer to the bridge
Listen to this and these flautando sound variations seem like a pretty good imitation of the real sound.

The piercing overtones at 0:20 could be avoided if you play with little pressure but don't set it all the way to 0. Also playing closer to the fingerboard always helps.


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## DANIELE (Apr 18, 2021)

widekeys said:


> On bowed instruments, the attack of a note may sound different than the sustain due to difference in bow pressures and bow position. In SWAM Violins there is an attack control somewhere in the settings.
> It is modeled pretty convincingly to the point that on some occasions you will find that the string stops vibrating and you just produce an "empty bow sound" (combination of bowpressure, expression and rosin settings). I was surprised, that SWAM strings captured this delicate detail. I couldn't reproduce it with V3, but in V2 I remember hearing it sometimes when experimenting.
> 
> However, here is a real sul pont sound:
> ...



You are right, thank you so much for your explanation. I tried and now I understand better.

I'd like so much to have some real player at my side to learn.


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## Markrs (Apr 23, 2021)

Not sure that any one posted this, but Frans Absil has done a review of Solo Strings V3


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## muziksculp (May 10, 2021)

Hi,

I haven't had the chance to spend some quality time with new SWAM 3 Solo Strings, today I began testing the Violin, using the various models, but so far I'm not liking the timbre that much, and feel it still sounds synth like, or not realistic enough for my taste. 

I'm curious to read about your experience with the new SWAM Violin V3 , Your thoughts about it. 

Actually, I haven't heard a convincing demo yet, if there is one please point it out on this thread. 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## TBProAudio (May 11, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> I haven't had the chance to spend some quality time with new SWAM 3 Solo Strings, today I began testing the Violin, using the various models, but so far I'm not liking the timbre that much, and feel it still sounds synth like, or not realistic enough for my taste.
> 
> ...


You may combine it with a nice reverb?


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## muziksculp (May 11, 2021)

TBProAudio said:


> You may combine it with a nice reverb?


Yes, that does help, I'm still experimenting with the SWAM V3 Solo Strings, I will post some audio when I feel I got something interesting.


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## muziksculp (May 12, 2021)

Hi,

If you are using SWAM V3 Solo Strings Instruments with MidiPaw, and LeapMotion, are you able to control the Pitchbend of the SWAM instrument using MidiPaw ?

If Yes, how are you setting it up ? I get strange behavior, it overloads the Midi data, when I assign the Pitchbend parameter to a control cell in MidiPaw, and it mutes the LoopMidi app. which I then have to un-mute, and delete the Pitchbend cell of MidiPAw.

Also, are you using the 14-bit mode of MidiPaw, if Yes, what do I need to set this up properly ?

If I enable the 14-bit Switch in MidiPaw, I get midi-overloads, and the LoopMidi App. gets muted. which won't allow working with i.e. Expression in a 14-bit mode. 


Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## muziksculp (May 12, 2021)

Here is a fun track I came across on YT, that uses a bit of SWAM Solo Strings V3, it's not orchestral


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## muziksculp (May 20, 2021)

Hello SWAM Solo Strings Users, 

I have some good news for you, I discovered a way to considerably enrich/improve the timbre quality of the SWAM Solo String Instruments, making them sound so much more realistic. 

I think It's quite a big improvement.

I will be making a video, and post it during this weekend to demonstrate the difference, and reveal the special sauce that you can use to do this. 

This should be good to use for both the V2, and V3 of SWAM Solo Strings.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## anjwilson (May 20, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hello SWAM Solo Strings Users,
> 
> I have some good news for you, I discovered a way to considerably enrich/improve the timbre quality of the SWAM Solo String Instruments, making them sound so much more realistic.
> 
> ...


Looking forward to it.


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## muziksculp (May 23, 2021)

Here we go :


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## anjwilson (May 23, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Here we go :



Looks like the video is set as private at the moment.


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## muziksculp (May 23, 2021)

anjwilson said:


> Looks like the video is set as private at the moment.


Sorry about that, It should be Public now


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## muziksculp (May 23, 2021)

Hi,

I also wanted to mention that the 3Sigma Audio Impulse Responses are meant primarily for use with Amplified Acoustic Solo Strings, when using i.e. a Piezo Pickup that is then plugged into an effects box, then into an Instrument Amp. The Piezo Pickups which are attached to the Bridge of the solo string instruments transform the vibrations of the bridge into electrical signals, but that transformation does not accurately represent the full timbre, and richness of the solo string instrument, hence the use of an Impulse Response signal to further improve that signal is something used by some HW Effects devices. 

The SWAM Solo Strings imho. suffer a bit from that same issue, where the timbre of the instrument is not accurately represented via the PM when it comes to the richness one hears in the timbre of the instrument. This is why I decided to test these Impulse Responses, and I feel they really do enhance the timbre of the SWAM Solo Strings.

I will try to post some more demos of the other SWAM Instruments, using various IR options form 3Sigma Audio in the next few days. So far I'm very satisfied with the results, and glad that I made the decision to test this approach. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## muziksculp (May 24, 2021)




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## Bollen (May 25, 2021)

I would personally love to hear if these instruments can handle avant-garde stuff... Nobody's really shown how the transitions work e.g. how the bow pressure or sul pont sound. I'm trying to get my hands on the Chris Hein solo strings purely for the effects, but those will be quite limited. I'd prefer if these string can cover my needs.

Any thoughts community?


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## muziksculp (May 25, 2021)

Bollen said:


> I would personally love to hear if these instruments can handle avant-garde stuff... Nobody's really shown how the transitions work e.g. how the bow pressure or sul pont sound. I'm trying to get my hands on the Chris Hein solo strings purely for the effects, but those will be quite limited. I'd prefer if these string can cover my needs.
> 
> Any thoughts community?


Maybe you can post an example/s of what you are seeking in terms of an avant-garde sound for the solo SWAM strings. i.e. any YT videos that have some of that type of performance using solo strings would give me an idea what you are trying to emulate.


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## Bollen (May 25, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Maybe you can post an example/s of what you are seeking in terms of an avant-garde sound for the solo SWAM strings. i.e. any YT videos that have some of that type of performance using solo strings would give me an idea what you are trying to emulate.


Something along these lines, but like I said above: what do the transitions sound like? Moving from sul tasto to pont or applying more or less bow pressure.

View attachment Extended arts.mp3


I really appreciate it!


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## muziksculp (May 25, 2021)

Bollen said:


> Something along these lines, but like I said above: what do the transitions sound like? Moving from sul tasto to pont or applying more or less bow pressure.
> 
> View attachment Extended arts.mp3
> 
> ...


OK, I will experiment a bit with the SWAM Solo Strings and see if they can deliver this type of Avant-Garde sounds, and see how the transitions sound like as well. I will post some audio if I think it's worth posting


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## muziksculp (May 29, 2021)




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## muziksculp (Jun 1, 2021)

Hi,

Anyone try using SWAM Solo Strings V3 with Divisimate ? 

If so, are you able to get the type of results like in this video ? 

He is using a TEC Breath Controller for the Dynamics, and possibly the Bite Control for Vibrato Amount.

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## TomaeusD (Jun 2, 2021)

Bollen said:


> Something along these lines, but like I said above: what do the transitions sound like? Moving from sul tasto to pont or applying more or less bow pressure.
> 
> View attachment Extended arts.mp3
> 
> ...


I didn't upgrade to SWAM v3.0 but here is a mess of sounds you can sift through.


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## thereus (Jun 2, 2021)

Does anyone else wish that they provided a more varied range of attacks for each notes on their instruments. Every other part of the emulation is so realistic. The lack of varied attacks is the only thing that smacks you in the face to say that an individual line is not real, but it does smack you very hard in the face.


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## muziksculp (Jun 2, 2021)

thereus said:


> Does anyone else wish that they provided a more varied range of attacks for each notes on their instruments. Every other part of the emulation is so realistic. The lack of varied attacks is the only thing that smacks you in the face to say that an individual line is not real, but it does smack you very hard in the face.


imho. there are a good number of parameters that can give rise to variety to the attack of the notes, i.e. Velocity, Bow Noise, Bow Pressure, Bow Position, Also note that the 'Attack Ramp Speed' parameter can set in the Advanced MIDI page, this can also be set to react to both Expression, and Velocity simultaneously. This controls the characteristics of the Bow's Attack sound.


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## muziksculp (Jun 18, 2021)




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## muziksculp (Jul 9, 2021)




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## Bollen (Jul 12, 2021)

muziksculp said:


>



Bravo, bravo!!!


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## muziksculp (Jul 28, 2021)




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## muziksculp (Aug 6, 2021)




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## muziksculp (Sep 10, 2021)




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## Piano Pete (Sep 10, 2021)

Damn, you are making me want to revamp my solo string setup from v2, but I'm currently slammed with tight deadlines. Whatever timbre may be off doesnt matter when the performances are there—in my opinion.

Has anyone gotten the high resolution midi to work within Cubase?


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## muziksculp (Sep 17, 2021)




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## hag01 (Sep 18, 2021)

I didn't read any of this discussion yet, can someone tell if there going to be ensemble patches?


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## lychee (Sep 18, 2021)

AM preparing a plugin entirely dedicated to ensemble.


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## hag01 (Sep 18, 2021)

lychee said:


> AM preparing a plugin entirely dedicated to ensemble.


Separated from the Audio Modeling products we have now?
Oh, that's great for my pocket.


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## muziksculp (Sep 24, 2021)




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## DANIELE (Sep 24, 2021)

muziksculp said:


>



I'm just watching it now, very informative.

I'd like to see more videos like this from those great developers.


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## DANIELE (Sep 24, 2021)

I'd like to buy a Leap Motion to try it but I'm not able to find it anywere here in Italy, are there any other controllers that do the same thing?


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## Markrs (Sep 24, 2021)

DANIELE said:


> I'd like to buy a Leap Motion to try it but I'm not able to find it anywere here in Italy, are there any other controllers that do the same thing?


http://www.musikraken.com/ on Android and iOS can do something similar (plus a few other extra things). I have used it and found it to work well.
If you do get a Leap Motion controller use http://www.midipaw.com/ with it as that works really well.


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## doctoremmet (Sep 24, 2021)

I don't think so. I did just get the Expressive E Touché SE which is another great MIDI CC controller for orchestral use cases… but of course based on totally different principles


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## doctoremmet (Sep 24, 2021)

Ah Mark to the rescue. I always forget about that one!


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## DANIELE (Sep 24, 2021)

Markrs said:


> http://www.musikraken.com/ on Android and iOS can do something similar (plus a few other extra things). I have used it and found it to work well.
> If you do get a Leap Motion controller use http://www.midipaw.com/ with it as that works really well.


Thank you for your advice. I'll look at it.


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## Loïc D (Sep 24, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> I don't think so. I did just get the Expressive E Touché SE which is another great MIDI CC controller for orchestral use cases… but of course based on totally different principles


Ah I was wondering if Touché is fit for orchestral use. How do you use it exactly ?


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## muziksculp (Sep 24, 2021)

Would love to see Sample Modeling post an in-depth tutorial on tips, how to ..etc. video for their Solo & Ensemble Strings library, also for their Brass Instrument libraries.


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## doctoremmet (Sep 24, 2021)

Loïc D said:


> Ah I was wondering if Touché is fit for orchestral use. How do you use it exactly ?


Like this:


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## muziksculp (Sep 29, 2021)

Tomorrow, Sept. 30th, last day to upgrade from SWAM Solo Strings ver. 2 to ver. 3 at *75% Off*.

Here is a Wonderful demo track done with *SWAM Solo Strings V3 *


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## robgb (Sep 29, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Tomorrow, Sept. 30th, last day to upgrade from SWAM Solo Strings ver. 2 to ver. 3 at *75% Off*.
> 
> Here is a Wonderful demo track done with *SWAM Solo Strings V3 *



I have felt no need to upgrade.


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## novaburst (Sep 29, 2021)

the violins, bass, and viola sound ok but question mark on the cello, maybe a few more updates for cello to bring it in line


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## eli0s (Sep 30, 2021)

Aside all their expressive capabilities, the sound is just thin... This is especially evident in the lower instruments, they lack presence.


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## muziksculp (Oct 15, 2021)




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## muziksculp (Oct 31, 2021)

Hi SWAM V3 Solo Strings Users,

I wonder if you watched this video, and benefited from the tips, and tutorials it offered ? 

I think it was very helpful, I wish they release more tutorials showing various musical scenarios of using them, i.e. an expert explaining it in a very well organized, and clear manner.

Oh, and I wasn't fond of the background music throughout the video.

I took notes, and would like to test these tips, to see how I can better harness the power of these Solo String SWAM V3 instruments. Especially interested in trying 'Bipolar' bowing mode.

What did you think about the video ? was it helpful for you ?

Any feedback on this would be interesting, and appreciated.

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## gordinho (Nov 11, 2021)

aisch1212 said:


> There is no complete article about that. Posts on the internet lack major points like data processing speed and accuracy. You have to make your own circuit for the specific functionality. Anyway, when I'm done with designing it, I'm going to share it.


Any pointers to the breath part? I'm actually handy with teensy/arduino so I'd just need help on the breath sensing part


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## ManOn1st (Nov 23, 2021)

Any tips on pizzicato poly mode, specifically scoring three note pizz chords? I seem to be able to play them live (sometimes), but when I program them in a score editor (logic), I'm only hearing one note...


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## muziksculp (Dec 28, 2021)




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## Windbag (Dec 28, 2021)

Halp!

I'm wondering if anyone's got a better solution (keyswitch maybe?) for fingering priority per note for the Cello - I'm running into an issue with the ubiquitous Bach Suite no1 (sorry - I needed a softer performance of it than I can find) with the difficulty being about about 2:50 where there's bowing between two strings such that one is open and other fingered to the same pitch

View attachment 05_CelloSuiteIC_Bach.mp3


The best idea I had thusfar was making a second instance and manually pulling the midi over so there's effectively one cello playing the open notes (alt/fingering set to Nut/Open) and another one playing the fingered ones (set to Mid):






...since all settings are the same it seems to pass as one instrument, but can I do this with just one instance? Can I do it real time?


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## soPpypoPsy (Dec 28, 2021)

Windbag said:


> Halp!
> 
> I'm wondering if anyone's got a better solution (keyswitch maybe?) for fingering priority per note for the Cello - I'm running into an issue with the ubiquitous Bach Suite no1 (sorry - I needed a softer performance of it than I can find) with the difficulty being about about 2:50 where there's bowing between two strings such that one is open and other fingered to the same pitch
> 
> ...


Detache(Manual 3.0.4 - P.68) makes it possible.
Connect two distant notes with "Sustain(CC64)".

To align the bowing direction, turn "Bow Start" on and off (switch it back on) before playing the next detache.
Alternatively, you can use "Gesture Mode: Bipolar/Bowing" to omit turning "Bow Start" on and off.


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## Windbag (Dec 28, 2021)

Not sure I'm following...Bow start that I see is either up or down. Is forcing bow change gonna effect the fingering selection? What I'm nitpicking is the back-to-back notes that are meant to be played:

1. up bow on Open A 
2. down bow on D fingered up to A
3. back up on the open A again...

---> A
<---- D+5 (A)
---> A

The trouble I'm having is that even with AltFing set op "Nut/Open" I keep getting

---> D+5 (A)
<---- D+5 (A)
---> D+5 (A)

...unless it's separated enough that it's pretty staccato. Playing around here now, neither bow start nor Bow lift (on/off string) seem to change the propensity to use the open string in realtime; I'll have to map them to a CC and try editing


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## soPpypoPsy (Dec 28, 2021)

I hope the attached examples will help.

1) Detache (Sustain + Staccato Attack [separated notes]), switching Alt F

A Open String Up
A on D Down
A Open String Up
A on D Down

2) Detache, switching Alt F, Bow Start
* I'm sorry for the confusion. I tried to mention in my previous reply that it is possible to specify "Bow Start" in Detache as well.

A Open String Up
A on D Up
A Open String Up
A on D Up

It is also possible to play in real time, but it requires proper CC and KS assignments.


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## brunodegazio (Dec 29, 2021)

ManOn1st said:


> Any tips on pizzicato poly mode, specifically scoring three note pizz chords? I seem to be able to play them live (sometimes), but when I program them in a score editor (logic), I'm only hearing one note...


I've found that I have to spread them out in time a little to make them sound right. Also, play with the poly mode setting. "Auto" mode doesn't always play them right.


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## brunodegazio (Dec 29, 2021)

@soPpypoPsy, I can see in your video that the string selection is changing with the bow direction, but why?!

Are you changing the "Alternate Fingering" parameter between bow strokes? 

If so, why does that method work only in Detache mode?







soPpypoPsy said:


> I hope the attached examples will help.
> 
> 1) Detache (Sustain + Staccato Attack [separated notes]), switching Alt F
> 
> ...


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## soPpypoPsy (Dec 29, 2021)

View attachment 2021-12-29 12-43-25.mp4




It is programmed according to three rules.


1) The bow direction is reversed after each "Staccato Attack".

By using "Sustain" to extend the sounding note to the next "Staccato Attack", a smooth bow change ("Detache") is performed.


2) The next fingering is based on the current position (being played), which takes precedence over "Alt F". It is reset after each "Staccato Attack".

In particular, two notes of the same pitch in "Legato Slurred" are counted as a one note, so reassigning the fingering will have no effect.


3) The bow direction of the next "Staccato Attack" is reassigned by up-downing(switch) the "Bow Start" (which has no effect on the note being played).

This allows you to continue bowing in the same direction.
In the first half, the return of the bow is given priority over the specification of "Bow Start".
In the second half, the direction is aligned by reassignment.


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## Windbag (Dec 29, 2021)

This is great and exactly what I needed...thank you so much for taking the time to explain. Wound up pretty much re-performing the whole piece anyway , but got to a place I'm pretty happy with:

View attachment 05_CelloSuiteIG_Bach.mp3


...I continue to be blown away by how expressive these instruments are. Pretty much fantasy land for a keyboardist to create a subtly-articulated cello recording (even if it does take a breath controller, pair of Rolis, foot pedal, and sh!#on of CC editing) I was able to speed a lot of that up by mapping bow start and AltFing to one of the little joysticks on my SL88 and recording it in a second pass with the tempo way down:






Also the Mono/Double point was helpful...I hadn't been thinking about that either and it helped some other areas (sweeping across all the strings with some overlap). Thanks again guys


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## brunodegazio (Dec 29, 2021)

Aha! So you _are _changing the "Alternate fingering" at each note. 

Which makes sense. The only thing I don't understand is why it only works in detache mode. It would seem that it should work in any mode. 




soPpypoPsy said:


> View attachment 2021-12-29 12-43-25.mp4
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Windbag (Dec 29, 2021)

brunodegazio said:


> Aha! So you _are _changing the "Alternate fingering" at each note.
> 
> Which makes sense. The only thing I don't understand is why it only works in detache mode. It would seem that it should work in any mode.


Sounds like the engine is prioritizing phrasing and will look at the last note before it reverts to fingering preference...

Interestingly I had it working pretty reliably _before_ using the sustain-pedal-detaché (had to map CC74 back as I had stolen it for vibrato (obsolete w/ roli)). It wasn't until I shortened the notes - back to what I was talking about originally, being more staccato than I was after - that the fingering priority worked well, except now with the pedal held, the notes are fully connected (new note event=bow change). I might still have been missing a start/stop in there but already had breath (CC2), bite(CC1), pitch, expression(CC11), b.start, AltFing, mono/poly envelopes for each of....many...midi regions (funnily enough, Bach didn't write that piece with any pauses for breath) and was quite lost enough


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## muziksculp (Dec 29, 2021)

@Windbag,

Which ROLI units are you using ? 

I have a ROLI Lightpad Block M , I don't even know if they are shipping the Seaboard models. Just curious which one/s you are using, and how you like them.

Thanks
Muziksculp


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## Windbag (Dec 29, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> @Windbag,
> 
> Which ROLI units are you using ?


2 of the Seaboard Blocks for a 4-octave range. Ended up returning a Seaboard Rise 49 after finding it noticeably less reliable with them side by side, surprisingly enough. They are really amazing with these strings, at least for pitch...but you may spend a while hitting sour notes if you're anything like me


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## muziksculp (Dec 29, 2021)

Windbag said:


> 2 of the Seaboard Blocks for a 4-octave range. Ended up returning a Seaboard Rise 49 after finding it noticeably less reliable with them side by side, surprisingly enough. They are really amazing with these strings, at least for pitch...but you may spend a while hitting sour notes if you're anything like me


Thanks for the feedback. 

All of ROLI's Seaboard line is out of stock. I think they have a supply chain issue, I wish there was an alternate developer for these type of controllers.


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## Lady Gaia (Dec 29, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I wish there was an alternate developer for these type of controllers.


I am still hopeful that Expressive E's Osmose will prove to be a much more familiar playing surface while offering a good range of expression - when it finally ships. I'll be curious whether they will wind up working with Audio Modeling to provide an out-of-the-box configuration appropriate for their instruments.


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## muziksculp (Dec 29, 2021)

Lady Gaia said:


> I am still hopeful that Expressive E's Osmose will prove to be a much more familiar playing surface while offering a good range of expression - when it finally ships. I'll be curious whether they will wind up working with Audio Modeling to provide an out-of-the-box configuration appropriate for their instruments.


I need to check it out. I didn't know about it. So, it hasn't shipped yet, it's a brand new controller model. Hmmm.. Interesting. 

Thanks for mentioning it.


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## muziksculp (Dec 29, 2021)

Looks very interesting, with a high price tag to go along. Their website says *available soon*. 

https://www.expressivee.com/2-osmose


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## Lady Gaia (Dec 29, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Looks very interesting, with a high price tag to go along. Their website says *available soon*.


Those of us who have been following the saga from the start will roll our eyes a little at the "available soon" designation, as it has been there for quite a while. Still, it's definitely getting close. At least for those at the front of the queue.

Pre-orders started late 2019, and indeed I put money down the day they went live, with an original target of Summer 2020. I can't imagine a worse time to try to finish developing a product and go through the industrialization process! They were at a key stage when shutdown started and travel to the factory became impractical. Add in dealing with the global supply chain nightmare at the moment, and I'm sure nothing has gone entirely to plan.

Still, they've reached the stage where the a trial production unit has been deemed good to go with no more refinements required. Earlier units still had minor fit and finish issues from their perspective, but people were able to get hands-on time with them at Superbooth this year to rave reviews. So the first small production batch is underway, and will go through a thorough QA process to see if any additional issues come to light during early production as they slowly ramp up. It's an excruciating process that I've been peripherally involved with before, so I know patience will yield a better product and that they're doing everything they can.

As for the price? Purely as a controller it's not inexpensive, but as a complete synth it's pretty competitively priced. The built-in Eagan Matrix synth engine previously used in the Continuum line has never been available in anything this inexpensive, and it has some really intriguing characteristics. I'll admit I may be somewhat swayed by the steep pre-order discount, but if it lives up to expectations I will likely buy another at full retail in order to have one in each of two locations.


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## soPpypoPsy (Dec 30, 2021)

brunodegazio said:


> Aha! So you _are _changing the "Alternate fingering" at each note.
> 
> Which makes sense. The only thing I don't understand is why it only works in detache mode. It would seem that it should work in any mode.





Windbag said:


> Sounds like the engine is prioritizing phrasing and will look at the last note before it reverts to fingering preference...


Additional explanation.

The reason it only works in Detache is as stated in rule 2.
...But actually, there are ways to return the bow that are not limited to Detache.

In Gesture Mode: Expression, you cannot return the bow as you wish with Slurred Legato.

In Gesture Mode: Bipolar/Bowing, you can return the bow at any time, even with Slurred Legato. (Note: the attack is weaker than in Detache.)

For more information, please see the video I made in the past.

(6:00-) The difference in attack when returning the bow with Slurred Legato and Detache

(15:24-) More fingering control


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## muziksculp (Jan 1, 2022)




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## muziksculp (Jan 13, 2022)




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## robgb (Jan 13, 2022)

muziksculp said:


>



This may be the best demo of this library I've ever seen.


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## muziksculp (Jan 13, 2022)

robgb said:


> This may be the best demo of this library I've ever seen.


SWAM is more a Virtual Instrument rather than a library


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## lychee (Jan 14, 2022)

muziksculp said:


>



This is what happens when you put this software in good hands.
Excellent work !


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## lychee (Jan 14, 2022)

Any news about the ensemble version of the plugin?
I vaguely remember a schedule announcing availability at the end of 2021, or am I dreaming?


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## lelepar (Jan 14, 2022)

lychee said:


> Any news about the ensemble version of the plugin?
> I vaguely remember a schedule announcing availability at the end of 2021, or am I dreaming?


Development of SWAM Ensembles started a couple of months ago, the release is planned in 2022. Please follow our roadmap, anyway note that it is not written in the stone: https://community.audiomodeling.com/index.php?u=/topic/24/a-rough-roadmap


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## muziksculp (Jan 14, 2022)

lelepar said:


> Development of SWAM Ensembles started a couple of months ago, the release is planned in 2022. Please follow our roadmap, anyway note that it is not written in the stone: https://community.audiomodeling.com/index.php?u=/topic/24/a-rough-roadmap


Hi @lelepar ,

Thanks for the exciting news update about SWAM Ensembles. 

I couldn't find posts about i.e. SWAM Ensemble Strings in the Roadmap area. Maybe I didn't look carefully, is there any mention of them ?


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## lelepar (Jan 14, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @lelepar ,
> 
> Thanks for the exciting news update about SWAM Ensembles.
> 
> I couldn't find posts about i.e. SWAM Ensemble Strings in the Roadmap area. Maybe I didn't look carefully, is there any mention of them ?


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## muziksculp (Jan 14, 2022)

lelepar said:


>


OH.. I see it. Funny, I thought that was referring to a Harmonica Ensemble release 

Thanks.


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## lelepar (Jan 15, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> OH.. I see it. Funny, I thought that was referring to a Harmonica Ensemble release
> 
> Thanks.


Comma does matter 

BTW: Harmonica ensembles would be fun


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## Markrs (Jan 15, 2022)

Pleased to see world instruments are planned for the future. Would love to see physically modeled percussion as well.


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## robgb (Jan 15, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> SWAM is more a Virtual Instrument rather than a library


It has a number of violins (via their IRs), so I'll call it a library.


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## muziksculp (Jan 15, 2022)

robgb said:


> It has a number of violins (via their IRs), so I'll call it a library.


LOL... You can call it whatever you like, but try using it as an Instrument


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## robgb (Jan 15, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> LOL... You can call it whatever you like, but try using it as an Instrument


I use it to stir my coffee. Don't you?


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## anjwilson (Jan 15, 2022)

muziksculp said:


>



This is the best SWAM violin demo I've heard as well. I'm always left waiting to hear a similarly compelling cello demo, though.

Striking that the programmer ignores the built-in vibrato, controlling vibrato entirely by pitch bend (similar to Cristian Labelli in his Morricone demo for SM violin). Also, can anyone tell: is that a small LFO on the pitch bend, or just the result of hand-drawn pitch bend throughout?


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## muziksculp (Jan 15, 2022)

anjwilson said:


> This is the best SWAM violin demo I've heard as well. I'm always left waiting to hear a similarly compelling cello demo, though.
> 
> Striking that the programmer ignores the built-in vibrato, controlling vibrato entirely by pitch bend (similar to Cristian Labelli in his Morricone demo for SM violin). Also, can anyone tell: is that a small LFO on the pitch bend, or just the result of hand-drawn pitch bend throughout?


Yes, I noticed the use of pitch bend for vibrato, instead of the built-in vibrato control. My guess it is a hand gesture that controls the Pitch Bend, and has been limited to a very small range so it sounds realistic. The fluctuations/variations achieved in the demo using the Pitch Bend for vibrato are too natural sounding to be LFO generated.


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## anjwilson (Jan 15, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Yes, I noticed the use of pitch bend for vibrato, instead of the built-in vibrato control. My guess it is a hand gesture that controls the Pitch Bend, and has been limited to a very small range so it sounds realistic. The fluctuations/variations achieved in the demo using the Pitch Bend for vibrato are too natural sounding to be LFO generated.


Could be. I was imagining an LFO used in addition to programming or performing the pitch bend, so the value would never be truly static, even if the pitch were changing by only a couple of cents. (There are several places in the performance where the pitch bend fluctuates only between roughly +/-0.04 semitones.)


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## william81723 (Jan 15, 2022)

anjwilson said:


> This is the best SWAM violin demo I've heard as well. I'm always left waiting to hear a similarly compelling cello demo, though.
> 
> Striking that the programmer ignores the built-in vibrato, controlling vibrato entirely by pitch bend (similar to Cristian Labelli in his Morricone demo for SM violin). Also, can anyone tell: is that a small LFO on the pitch bend, or just the result of hand-drawn pitch bend throughout?


My SWAM Cello.


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## muziksculp (Jan 18, 2022)

Note how Pitchbend is used for the vibrato, the Vibrato fader is not used for vibrato, I'm not surprised, because none of the builtin Vibrato functions in virtual instruments/sample libraries are realistic sounding, and an instant giveaway that it's a midi/virtual instrument performance.


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## muziksculp (Feb 11, 2022)

Hi,

Here is a video showing some of the SWAM Solo Strings, and Woodwinds in Action. 



Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Lohena (Feb 13, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> Here is a video showing some of the SWAM Solo Strings, and Woodwinds in Action.
> 
> ...



This demo sounded amazing to me and my wife! Makes me want to write for strings and buy these. 

I prefer expression over anything else.


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## muziksculp (Mar 25, 2022)




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## HCMarkus (Mar 25, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Note how Pitchbend is used for the vibrato, the Vibrato fader is not used for vibrato, I'm not surprised, because none of the builtin Vibrato functions in virtual instruments/sample libraries are realistic sounding, and an instant giveaway that it's a midi/virtual instrument performance.


Although I love doing Electric Lead Guitar vibratro with the PB wheel or paddle, for SM Strings, I use the built-in LFO, with depth controlled by keyboard After Touch and LFO Speed modulated by inclination of a TEControl Breath Controller; this allows me to speed up/slow down the vibrato as I record. BC is assigned to Expression, and OMG, is this an expressive setup!


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## muziksculp (Mar 25, 2022)

HCMarkus said:


> Although I love doing Electric Lead Guitar vibratro with the PB wheel or paddle, for SM Strings, I use the built-in LFO, with depth controlled by keyboard After Touch and LFO Speed modulated by inclination of a TEControl Breath Controller; this allows me to speed up/slow down the vibrato as I record. BC is assigned to Expression, and OMG, is this an expressive setup!


Sounds like a good way to get epressive with SM Strings. I never thought of using Aftertouch for Vibrato Depth. 

Thanks for sharing this.


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## Windbag (Mar 25, 2022)

I find AT difficult to modulate and especially tricky to time (I suspect my SL88 implements a delay after initial key strike to differentiate between velocity and pressure)....particularly during a run where I am alternating vibrato and clean notes, when I might want vibrato actually affecting the attack of the note rather than ramping up afterward. The closest I've managed is just holding a key outside the instrument's range that i can use only for AT, but then I'm down a hand for voicing and may still have to go back and delete note event(s) to clean up the score

for Ensembles where you won't really want direct input on the pitch, I imagine I would want to find something akin to my previous favorite vibrato controller: the continuous damper pedal. With that, I get a hands-free, note-independent full range CC that returns to 0 aggressively due to the spring force. Seems CC64 has other functions here, so I'm not sure that would work...or at least not without MIDI filtering/remapping

I would probably go to bite pressure with a BBC2 at my disposal - recall having decent luck with that before more recently using it for timbe-related parameters.


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## HCMarkus (Mar 27, 2022)

Windbag said:


> I find AT difficult to modulate and especially tricky to time (I suspect my SL88 implements a delay after initial key strike to differentiate between velocity and pressure)....particularly during a run where I am alternating vibrato and clean notes, when I might want vibrato actually affecting the attack of the note rather than ramping up afterward.


Good point; having an alternate controller available for vibrato control would probably be handy for those situations. A MIDI track plugin reassigning the alt controller to AT would allow use of either CC at any time.

The above said, it is my perception that, generally, delayed onset of vibrato is more realistic and expressive and thus desired. Find it very satisfying to bing vibrato in by laying into the keyboard. Works great with winds, too. 



Windbag said:


> I would probably go to bite pressure with a BBC2 at my disposal - recall having decent luck with that before more recently using it for timbe-related parameters.


I've tried that. I find it less intuitive, but you remind me to practice with it a little; maybe it will become second nature.


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## gordinho (Mar 27, 2022)

I've been using the haken continuum to play swam strings and it's incredibly expressive. I know of no other library where you can effectively use vibrato and styles of bygone eras or non classical and seamlessly cross between such styles. 

I do wish it had an easy mode for quick prototyping melodies etc for sketching


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## william81723 (Mar 29, 2022)

I tried to use EQ and Fresh Air to achieve a more convincing cello's tone.
These two audio files are made by the same MIDI.


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## Bruhelius (Apr 1, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Sounds like a good way to get epressive with SM Strings. I never thought of using Aftertouch for Vibrato Depth.
> 
> Thanks for sharing this.


I think it would make the most sense to map CC99 (synchronous vibrato) to the AT, since that is like a next-level, more passionate vibrato that goes on top of the regular vib depth and rate controls.


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## muziksculp (Apr 1, 2022)

Bruhelius said:


> I think it would make the most sense to map CC99 (synchronous vibrato) to the AT, since that is like a next-level, more passionate vibrato that goes on top of the regular vib depth and rate controls.


Sorry, I meant AM Strings, not SM Strings. Since this is an AM strings thread. 

And Yes, CC99 (Synchronous Vibrato) mapped to AT is a good idea for SM Strings. Have you tried it ? I will try it to see if it has a nice musical effect. Thanks.


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## Windbag (Jun 17, 2022)

Well in my customary glacial response time, I've finally found an excuse to pick up the AM violin, and have been able to apply the techniques garnered from experience with the Cello to get results I'm pretty excited out about, pretty much on day one (bought yesterday)

Using a 3 violins and cello (will have to come back for the viola), I spun up a mockup of an intro I wrote many years ago that kinda satisfied me that my first attempt at quartet arrangement would have at least worked (it never got used). In addition to the fairly critical expression via breath control, realtime bow position and pressure have been key to avoiding the scratchier, nasal end of the timbre range, as well as performed vibrato that I've been prattling on about elsewhere. And the different instrument models seem to be doing a great job avoiding the doubled/dubbed sound I was afraid of getting using the same library (if you can call it that) for multiple parts in the same piece;

View attachment SWAM_QuartetQuickTest.mp3


Also kinda blown away by how well the auto polyphony mode seems to work in with double stops in V3....this is played realtime (with two hands) and no keyswitches:

View attachment SWAM_VIvaldiDllStop.mp3


One some level, the challenge as effectively become just learning to play the violin....but with some practice, I feel pretty liberated when it comes to writing solo lines in absence of budget for a recording session. I am REALLY looking forward to their ensemble attempt, and hope that's still on the way this year


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## muziksculp (Jun 17, 2022)

Windbag said:


> Well in my customary glacial response time, I've finally found an excuse to pick up the AM violin, and have been able to apply the techniques garnered from experience with the Cello to get results I'm pretty excited out about, pretty much on day one (bought yesterday)
> 
> Using a 3 violins and cello (will have to come back for the viola), I spun up a mockup of an intro I wrote many years ago that kinda satisfied me that my first attempt at quartet arrangement would have at least worked (it never got used). In addition to the fairly critical expression via breath control, realtime bow position and pressure have been key to avoiding the scratchier, nasal end of the timbre range, as well as performed vibrato that I've been prattling on about elsewhere. And the different instrument models seem to be doing a great job avoiding the doubled/dubbed sound I was afraid of getting using the same library (if you can call it that) for multiple parts in the same piece;
> 
> ...


Hi @Windbag ,

Thanks for sharing this. I really like the first audio demo showing the violins and cello. Well done  

The second one showing the double stops was a bit odd sounding to my ears, the bowing sounds a bit strange when you are emulating double stops, by playing it polyphonically. Something about the attack-portion of the notes doesn't sound realistic. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Bollen (Jun 20, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Something about the attack-portion of the notes doesn't sound realistic.


I would say it sounds pretty close....


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## Markrs (Jun 23, 2022)

Nice to see a SWAM Violin being used with more traditional orchestral sample libraries.


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## Markrs (Jun 25, 2022)




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## Windbag (Jun 28, 2022)

Fun, but just because the somewhat machine gun/scratchy attacks in some of these demos dissuaded me from jumping in earlier on the higher strings, I thought it might be worth sharing that you can get around that with (in my tweaking today) more rosin, less bow noise, pressure, and expression/attack variation from playing in using appropriate controllers (i.e. more than a keyboard) to pretty good effect:

View attachment Rigby_FX.mp3


(also this is still just violins and cello - I haven't had time to mess with these much and still haven't added the Viola)


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## muziksculp (Jun 30, 2022)




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## Markrs (Jun 30, 2022)

muziksculp said:


>



This is one of the best performances I have heard using SWAM instruments.


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## muziksculp (Jun 30, 2022)

Markrs said:


> This is one of the best performances I have heard using SWAM instruments.


I agree. The expressiveness, and natural/realistic timbre of all the instruments is amazing. I'm guessing the Woodwinds are SWAM as well. He mentions that he has mixed in a bit of CSS with the SWAM Strings, for added warmth. Given SWAM are Solo Strings, I'm curious how many instances of SWAM he used for the string sections. Lovely mix, very transparent, and very nice acoustics. 

Quote from his YT Video : " _Original composition made using SWAM instruments with a tiny bit of CSS mixed in for extra warmth here and there. I used CinePerc for the percussion. For this demo I tried to create an authentic small ensemble sound with 'proper' arranging and a lot of attention to detail in the individual performances. Stylistically I was inspired by vintage Disney, especially the Bambi score by Frank Churchill. "_


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## Markrs (Jun 30, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I agree. The expressiveness, and natural/realistic timbre of all the instruments is amazing. I'm guessing the Woodwinds are SWAM as well. He mentions that he has mixed in a bit of CSS with the SWAM Strings, for added warmth. Given SWAM are Solo Strings, I'm curious how many instances of SWAM he used for the string sections. Lovely mix, very transparent, and very nice acoustics.
> 
> Quote from his YT Video : " _Original composition made using SWAM instruments with a tiny bit of CSS mixed in for extra warmth here and there. I used CinePerc for the percussion. For this demo I tried to create an authentic small ensemble sound with 'proper' arranging and a lot of attention to detail in the individual performances. Stylistically I was inspired by vintage Disney, especially the Bambi score by Frank Churchill. "_


I will tag @vincewebb to see if he can give more details on how he used SWAM


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## muziksculp (Jun 30, 2022)

Markrs said:


> I will tag @vincewebb to see if he can give more details on how he used SWAM


Thanks. That would be very helpful, and interesting.


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## sui (Jul 1, 2022)

My first try using the SWAM violin and cello in a piano trio setting, with the piano being provided by Pianotec. It's an arrangement of Final Fantasy 10's "To Zanarkand".

The composing experience has been so much better compared to sample-based instruments because the SWAM instruments do exactly what I tell them to do. Portamento into harmonics? Sure, no problem. A burst of bow pressure to further accent a note's attack? 5 seconds of drawing in the right CC values.
On the other hand they _only_ do what I tell them to do, and I have really been struggling to try and get out of the uncanny valley. I would really love some more tutorials on how to get a realistic sound out of the SWAM engine, because after tweaking CC curves for hours frankly I'm stuck.


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## muziksculp (Jul 1, 2022)

By the way, @vincewebb replied to my question on YT, confirming that all of the Woodwinds are SWAM in his 'Forest Morning' track. 

imho. They sound wonderful.


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## muziksculp (Jul 1, 2022)




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## vincewebb (Jul 1, 2022)

@muziksculp @Markrs Hello! Thanks for sharing the track  Nice to meet some fellow SWAM-ers 🎻 what a fun thread, some great demos on here.

For the Forest Morning track the instrumentation is 2 violins, 1 viola, 1 cello, 1 bass and then flute, clarinet, e. horn, bassoon, harp, celeste, percussion. It was a bit of an exercise in arranging as if for a live ensemble although admittedly I did throw an extra flute in there at one or two moments.

When I had more or less finished I did a final pass of layering in some CSS on some low sustains and melody bits - just to give it that slightly larger than life sound. Although honestly it sounded pretty full without it, perhaps because I was quite careful with the arranging.

I still feel like I have a way to go but one thing I've found helpful with string instruments is to pay a lot of attention to the bowing listening/watching carefully what real players do and taking advantage of how it can be used to emphasise certain parts of the phrase etc.

I generally try to do melody, rhythm, dynamics, portamento, bow changes, vibrato (amount and speed) all in real-time using a breath controller for expression and aftertouch for vibrato. I've assigned my mod wheel to vibrato speed. Often I get lost in the weeds editing CC data and so I find many times its better to just do another take with the right intention. I try to create natural rubato in my performances although it is 'on the grid'. I did do some project tempo automation as well to give the feel of a live ensemble.

Let me know if you have any questions and thanks for listening!


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## muziksculp (Jul 1, 2022)

Hi @vincewebb ,

Thank You so much for sharing more info. about your track, and some of the production notes. 

Very helpful.  

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## muziksculp (Jul 1, 2022)

Talking about SWAM, one of the exciting upcoming releases they have is their SWAM String Ensembles. This will be very interesting when released, I'm very excited about what it will offer, and quite optimistic.


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## ILIO_Official (Jul 6, 2022)

Here is a detailed course on learning all the ins and outs of using SWAM: SWAM Demystified - Tutorial Series from Ask.Video (ilio.com)


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## Bruhelius (Jul 31, 2022)

Anyone here trying to get good settings on MIR 3D with the SWAM strings? There are tons of parameters to adjust on the various microphones/capsules/dorectionality etc.

So far, I have been using mostly the default mic setup, but maybe others have had better results?


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## ahobakachan (Aug 17, 2022)

Hey everyone! Do you know when exactly sections are going to be released? Can't find any info, only that it should be this year


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## Windbag (Aug 18, 2022)

ahobakachan said:


> Hey everyone! Do you know when exactly sections are going to be released? Can't find any info, only that it should be this year


The only indication I'm aware of is this post, updated in February, which simply lists "ensembles:"






So no dates or even specificity as to _which_ ensembles... 🤷‍♂️

I'm hoping that's still a realistic estimate as I would be intensely interested a SWAM string section, if it's half as good as the solos – and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone. But from what I recall of past releases, don't expect to hear anything more concrete until they're basically ready to go.


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## muziksculp (Oct 30, 2022)

Amazing ! 

I wonder what is triggering the vibrato when he shakes his hand/finger ?


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## cuttime (Oct 30, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Amazing !
> 
> I wonder what is triggering the vibrato when he shakes his hand/finger ?


After touch?


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## muziksculp (Oct 30, 2022)

cuttime said:


> After touch?


Maybe.


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## HCMarkus (Oct 30, 2022)

I use AT for Vibrato Depth and modulate Vibrato Speed with the TEC BC Horizontal Tilt. It did seem that, in the video above, Vibrato Speed was somehow connected to the performer's right hand. Remember the Sample Modeling guy with the Ring Controller? I didn't see one here, but who knows?


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## muziksculp (Oct 30, 2022)

HCMarkus said:


> I use AT for Vibrato Depth and modulate Vibrato Speed with the TEC BC Horizontal Tilt. It did seem that, in the video above, Vibrato Speed was somehow connected to the performer's right hand. Remember the Sample Modeling guy with the Ring Controller? I didn't see one here, but who knows?


His Vibrato Speed was synchronized to his hand/finger motion. If it was Aftertouch he was using to control the vibrato speed that would be something I haven't tried myself. For some reason, I often forget about using Aftertouch to modulate vibrato related parameters. I guess his keyboard is also pretty good at reacting to Aftertouch. 

No, he is not using a RING Controller. Don't see it on his fingers. 

Thanks.


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## fakemaxwell (Oct 30, 2022)

It could have been assigned to something else and he was just wiggling his fingers out of habit. I know I end up doing that a lot with these instruments even though it isn't doing anything 😂


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## Windbag (Oct 30, 2022)

fakemaxwell said:


> It could have been assigned to something else and he was just wiggling his fingers out of habit. I know I end up doing that a lot with these instruments even though it isn't doing anything 😂


This. It's either on his breath controller (bite), left hand that is sitting on wheel, or foot pedals we're not seeing at all. It's regular enough to sound LFO-driven to me....nice performance though


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## aisch1212 (Oct 30, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Amazing !
> 
> I wonder what is triggering the vibrato when he shakes his hand/finger ?



Hello, I'm the one who made this video!
I've done a lot of experiments to test out the best ergonomic and intuitive way of manipulating next-gen VSTs with most proper tools. The video is one of the show-off.








[Picutres of Piri MK1. Outer shape(Left), Inner hardware(Right)]
For the video, I made a breath controller with tilt sensor. On the contrary to TEC BC2, My breath controller(Piri MK1, I named it) was able to detect both breath-out and breath-in(I call it a bipolar air pressure sensing) to output CC2, which mean I didn't have to take a moment to respire during performance. In addition, It prevents a momentary degradation of brain function by the lack of oxygen. The vibrato-related outputs are controlled by a tilt sensor and a mod wheel, if my memory serves me right. Hand Wiggling is just for a mood. No Aftertouch. It's a cheap midi keyboard with least functionalities, unfortunately.

If you guys are very perceptive, in the video, you'd notice some of note are respectively making sound even though they're yet to be pressed. This is because I controlled a pitch bend very often to make natural transitions in real-time. The technique was very hard to master but worth learning. With controlling attack time and releasing time, The pitch control and portemento control is a key to the better performance.

Most importantly, I programmed the value of every midi cc and value changing timing affect each other organically to produce natural control changes. For instance, even if mod wheel is set to mainly control CC1(Vibrato Intensity), It does not solely determine CC1.









[Pictures of Piri MK2]
After a few weeks, I develpoed a new version of my breath controller with a reduced weight, smaller shape like a cigarette, silicon contacts, and the 16-bit CC output support, however, with exclusion of tilt sensor.








[Picture of Wickeys. Concept of Finished product(Left), current acrylic Prototype(Right).]
However, I'm not using any breath controller any longer. Instead, I use Expressive E Touche and a modified expression pedals with my newly developed midi keyboard, Wickeys MK4 to produce better results. It's a next step out of restrictions of Piano-shaped midi input devices. Someday, When I'm get used to utilizing them, I'm planning to explain everyone these guys.


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## muziksculp (Oct 30, 2022)

Hi @aisch1212 ,

Thanks for the interesting info. and feedback. 

That was an awesome performance by you of the SWAM Violin. 

It's very nice of you to visit this thread. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## muziksculp (Oct 30, 2022)

aisch1212 said:


> The vibrato-related outputs are controlled by a tilt sensor and a mod wheel, if my memory serves me right. Hand Wiggling is just for a mood. No Aftertouch. It's a cheap midi keyboard with least function, unfortunately.


So, you did not generate any Pitchbend data with any movement gestures for the Vibrato. 

You used the Mod Wheel, and a tilt sensor on your 'Piri Mk1' Breath Controller, What does the tilt sensor, and modwheel control with regards to the vibrato ? Speed, and amount ? 

*Piri Mk1* is a cool name the way  

Thanks


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## aisch1212 (Oct 30, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> So, you did not generate any Pitchbend data with any movement gestures for the Vibrato.
> 
> You used the Mod Wheel, and a tilt sensor on your 'Piri Mk1' Breath Controller, What does the tilt sensor, and modwheel control with regards to the vibrato ? Speed, and amount ?
> 
> ...



And a Pitch bend to control pitches!


As for CC controls, one of my old data instructions tells me these records.

Breath affects CC2(90%) and bow pressure(20%), but not linearly.
Modwheel affects vibrato amount(70%) and vibrato rate(40%), but not linearly.
Tilting BC left and right affects vibrato rate(80%) and bow pressure(20%).
Tilting BC up and down affects vibrato amount(30%) and bow pressure(80%).
Pitch bend for pitches.

But this may be not correct! Bow noise is also being controlled, but I don't remeber by what.


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## muziksculp (Oct 30, 2022)

aisch1212 said:


> If you guys are very perceptive, in the video, you'd notice some of note are respectively making sound even though they're not yet to be pressed. This is because I use pitch control very often to make natural transitions in real-time. The technique was very hard to master but worth learning. With controlling attack time and releasing time, The pitch control and portemento control is a key to the better performance.


Very interesting. 

Are you using a normal pitch bend wheel on your keyboard, or something else ? 

I'm guessing you mean 'attack time' and 'releasing time' of your Keyboard performance technique to make realistic, and smooth pitch transitions. Because SWAM String Solo instruments do not have an 'attack time' , or 'release time' parameter. 

With regards to Portamento, that's triggered via low-velocity legato playing.


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## muziksculp (Oct 30, 2022)

You can control the shape of the CC# Curve, in the SWAM Solo Strings, which is very important when using Physical Controllers that need to translate their data into a more musical expressive curve, not just a normal linear curve/relationship. This makes SWAM very flexible to work with various physical control devices.


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## muziksculp (Oct 30, 2022)

aisch1212 said:


> For the video, I made a breath controller with tilt sensor. On the contrary to TEC BC2, My breath controller(Piri MK1, I named it) was able to detect both breath-out and breath-in(I call it a bipolar air pressure sensing) to output CC2, which mean I didn't have to take a moment to respire during performance. In addition, It prevents a momentary degradation of brain function by the lack of oxygen.


Very good idea.


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## aisch1212 (Oct 30, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Very interesting.
> 
> Are you using a normal pitch bend wheel on your keyboard, or something else ?
> 
> ...


In the Video, I used normal a pitch bend on the keyboard.

I must confused attack time and releasing time of Sample modeling strings with SWAM ones! Thanks you for correcting it. It's been a while since I used SWAM.

Portemento time was also controlled by velocity, but now I control it with my expression pedal.


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## muziksculp (Oct 30, 2022)

aisch1212 said:


> I'm not using any breath controller any longer. Instead, I use Expressive E Touche and a modified expression pedals with my newly developed midi keyboard, Wickeys MK4 to produce better results. It's a next step out of restrictions of Piano-shaped midi input devices. Someday, When I'm get used to utilizing them, I'm planning to explain everyone these guys.


WOW ! Now you got me more excited, and interested to know more. 

I wonder if the ROLI Seaboard 2 is able to get very good results with SWAM Instruments. Have you thought of using a Seaboard 2 ? 

I haven't checked the Expressive E Touche, How good is it for controlling SWAM, and other Virtual Instruments ? I had a friend recommend on a little while ago. 

I'm very interested, and curious about your new midi keyboard you are developing (Wickeys MK4) and your new modified Expression Pedal. By the way, I have not been happy using Expression Pedals, they just don't work nicely for me. I tried two or three models, I don't bother using them.


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## muziksculp (Oct 30, 2022)

aisch1212 said:


> In the Video, I used normal a pitch bend on the keyboard.


OK. Thanks. I don't feel very comfortable using Pitchbend wheels, they feel hard to work with for me. 



aisch1212 said:


> I must confused attack time and releasing time of Sample modeling strings with SWAM ones!


I see. How do you like the Sample Modeling Strings ? Have you found any special ways to work with them ? 



aisch1212 said:


> Portemento time was also controlled by velocity, but now I control it with my expression pedal.


Interesting. So, the expression pedal is sending note-on velocity data ? or ... ?


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## muziksculp (Oct 30, 2022)

OH.. you are in S.Korea. I'm very sad at what happened yesterday during the Halloween event. I Just felt like mentioning this. although it's an off-topic to our discussion. Very difficult time for many families who lost their loved ones.


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## aisch1212 (Oct 31, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> OK. Thanks. I don't feel very comfortable using Pitchbend wheels, they feel hard to work with for me.
> 
> 
> I see. How do you like the Sample Modeling Strings ? Have you found any special ways to work with them ?
> ...


Yes, the pitch bend is not very intuitive. The fact that I can't reach out to exact note with a bend is the main reason I'm not considering controlling pitch bend any longer.

And that's where Sample modeling string's attack time and releasing time controls shine. I control Attack and releasing time by Touche's left and right slide. With highest attack/release time values by Touche, and a highest CC5 portemento time value by an expression pedal, I can't make precise slur without pitch bend. Or, I can make various types of fast attack or smooth attack by adjusting them.

The reason I control velocity or portemento time(CC5) by a pedal is because the conventional key pressing method is unecessarily inaccurate for making intended velocity values. With velocity detecting mechanism of calculating time interval of two buttons or detecting pressure sensors, The finger and hand position is so much involved that key pressing is restricted by current gestures. This is somehow not a big problem for playing piano, but is for strings, guitars, brass, woodwinds, and any other instruments other than piano and harpsichords.

For instance, if you wanna do both extremly fast and light-like-feather arpeggios with VST guitar or violin, it would be impossible for the conventional midi controller to realize it, as fast finger speeds means high velocities for it. But if you control velocity or portemento time separately, any of non-piano effect is very easy to achieve.


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## muziksculp (Oct 31, 2022)

@aisch1212 ,

Have you tried, or considered using the LeapMotion Controller ?


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## aisch1212 (Oct 31, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> OH.. you are in S.Korea. I'm very sad at what happened yesterday during the Halloween event. I Just felt like mentioning this. although it's an off-topic to our discussion. Very difficult time for many families who lost their loved ones.


It's still hard to believe that over a hundred of young precious people have passed away that quick, not far from my house. A night street of South Korea is one of the safest in the world, but this kind of tragic was nothing like we ever exprienced.


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## muziksculp (Oct 31, 2022)

aisch1212 said:


> It's still hard to believe that over a hundred of young precious people have passed away that quick, not far from my house. A night street of South Korea is one of the safest in the world, but this kind of tragic was nothing like we ever exprienced.


Yeah, I didn't know about it until the day after it happened. My wife asked me in the morning, did you hear about the tragedy in S.Korea ? That's how I knew about it, because I didn't check the news that night. Very sad.


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## aisch1212 (Oct 31, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> @aisch1212 ,
> 
> Have you tried, or considered using the LeapMotion Controller ?


I watched youtube video using Leap motion for SWAM. And I once implemented it. The disadvantage of using Leap Motion is that there is no physical feedback, consequently making you blind of what you are doing, of where current values are heading. Where should I put my hand for default? Where is the lowest and highest position for my hand? You don't know because there is no physical indicator you can touch or see. Waving hands in the void is very hard controlled, just like using Theremin is. This kind of nonsense shares the same reason I don't like a pitch bend.

And most importantly, my arm hurts after a few minutes using Leap Motion...


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## muziksculp (Oct 31, 2022)

aisch1212 said:


> And most importantly, my arm hurts after a few minutes using Leap Motion...


Haha.. Same here.


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## muziksculp (Oct 31, 2022)

Here is a bit of SWAM Cello performance, expressing sad, and sorrow feelings, played in an exotic scale.

View attachment Sad SWAM Cello 1.mp3


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## muziksculp (Oct 31, 2022)

Hi,

Anyone here using SWAM Solo Instruments with a ROLI Seaboard Keyboard ? 

I would be interested in knowing how you like it.

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## aisch1212 (Oct 31, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> Anyone here using SWAM Solo Instruments with a ROLI Seaboard Keyboard ?
> 
> ...



[Me playing Seaboard]

Seaboard is a wonderful device. But I found it improper to use on virtual acoustic instruments for some reasons so that I sold it.

1. The pressure sensing result is not precise and not delicate. It also has no constant sensing area. It's not a major problem if the VST has narrow dynamic range, something like electronic guitars or synth sounds. But for the orchestral instruments, detailed dynamics are the point.

2. Electronically saying, a microcontroller's calculation time for the *pressure sensor matrix(Seaboard's)* is technically much slower than for the *on/off button matrix*, which cause users to feel more delays between key press and sound generation. It's also a weak point of Linnstrument.

3. The company is on the edge

Other than those, Seaboard is a innovative instrument for a specific purposes.


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## muziksculp (Oct 31, 2022)

aisch1212 said:


> [Me playing Seaboard]
> 
> Seaboard is a wonderful device. But I found it improper to use on virtual acoustic instruments for some reasons so that I sold it.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the feedback. Did you use their original model ? 

I think their new model, Seaboard 2 has improved the overall feel of the instrument. The fist model wasn't their best. I'm expecting a Seaboard 2 to arrive this month. (I ordered it back in March). I hope I can put it to good use. We shall see.


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## muziksculp (Oct 31, 2022)

@aisch1212 

I Love your Seaboard Performance using SWAM Cello. Thanks for sharing it.


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## gordinho (Nov 8, 2022)

aisch1212 said:


> [Me playing Seaboard]
> 
> Seaboard is a wonderful device. But I found it improper to use on virtual acoustic instruments for some reasons so that I sold it.
> 
> ...



Did you ever try a continuum? I find it feels incredibly organic...


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## lychee (Nov 9, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> Anyone here using SWAM Solo Instruments with a ROLI Seaboard Keyboard ?
> 
> ...


From my point of view I think it would be better to wait for the Osmose of Expressive E (if it comes out one day). 

Or else there is also the K-Board Pro 4 alternative from Keith Mcmillen, which is available now.


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## muziksculp (Nov 9, 2022)

lychee said:


> From my point of view I think it would be better to wait for the Osmose of Expressive E (if it comes out one day).
> 
> Or else there is also the K-Board Pro 4 alternative from Keith Mcmillen, which is available now.


I ordered a ROLI Seaboard 2 in March this year, hoping to get it this month, but I haven't received a shipping notification so far from ROLI. 

What's wrong with the Seabord 2 ? why should I wait for Osmose, or Expressive E ? 

I'm just interested to hear from Seaboard 2 users, if there are any on the forum. 

Thanks


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## Windbag (Nov 9, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I ordered a ROLI Seaboard 2 in March this year [...]



I think you will be very happy - it looks to me like they applied the improvements made to the wave surface on the smaller Blocks, which were surprisingly more predictable and controllable next to a Rise 49 I had briefly, to the more spacious and uninterrupted Rise form factor.

Experimental synth shenanigans aside, the SWAM strings are the best reason I've come across to get a Roli, since the surface makes such a close analog to a fingerboard. It allows natural vibrato performance, portamento/gliss, and justification/intonation sweetening all at the same time due to the continuous surface - that won't be the case for individual keys like the Osmose. That Continuum looks like an interesting alternative but at the expense of the tactile location feedback the wave ridges get you - which it looks like the new Roli 'frets' will help even more.

Some advice, based on my SWAM tinkering:

• Be patient - it's a pretty new skillset and it will take experimentation and practice to get good results, and there will be sour notes a-plenty in the meantime. Use two hands even for single lines...any kind of reach or crossover becomes difficult to land accurately.

• Use something else for "expression" control - while the z-axis/pressure seems like it would be good for this, it just can't carry across subsequent notes to make any kind of continuous phrasing the way a bow does independently of fingering. I use my BBC2 for this...which is fantastic until you run out of air (Cello parts don't account for breathing)

• Same goes for bow pressure (I have this mapped to bite pressure) and to some degree bow position....that can be mapped to y axis...sorta; the 'black' keys being only half length screw with this a bit - I think there is a way to make the sent value relative to your initial strike point to get around that to some degree, if you are ok with the initial value being centered. I have most recently mapped that to an expression pedal instead and get better results but there is room for improvement still

• you may also want to clamp or otherwise modify note velocity - i've found this difficult to control accurately. Most of my notes are SUPER light unless I concentrate on really striking, which is odd on a squishy surface. It's rather different from a mechanical key...I have to limit the velocity range via midi modifier in logic for instruments using velocity for legato speed, for instance.

• Get used to laying in parts at full speed if performing vibrato - my [bad] habit of recording at slower bpm for cleaner parts doesn't work with pitch-based vibrato because the oscillation is locked in and will not stay independent of tempo the way LFO/modwheel vibrato does

*tl:dr *

These input devices are a great, reasonably intuitive way to send the sh__tons of realtime control that i've found modeled instruments really need to sound convincing, and wind up adding a gratifying and addictive degree of expressive freedom as a result.


...also this vid I posted in another thread may help illustrate how much the Roli helps - note that all the anticipatory portamentos come pretty much automatically from reaching across the Roli...again just like a fingerboard:



Windbag said:


> Here's an attempt at showing what you'd get with a bone-stock Venezia model (to my ear the closest to the sample recordings) FOLLOWED BY the stylistic manupulations needed to aproximate the sound and style referenced here (with apologies that the performed vibrato doesn't show all that well within the 48 note bend range in my setup...just note the shift from the modwheel vibrato to pitch bend...or watch the fingerboard mockup):
> 
> View attachment SWAMCello_Weepy.mp4


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## muziksculp (Nov 9, 2022)

Hi @Windbag ,

Thanks you so much for your detailed feedback, and tips on the ROLI Seaboard 2, and using it with SWAM Instruments. I will print these and put them in my Studio Operations Folder.  Lots of details you mentioned that I need to digest about the ROLI 2.

I also got a reply from ROLI support this morning, they said that I will be receiving an email with the shipping tracking info. this month. So.. I'm excited that my ROLI 2 will be arriving during November as they promised me when I Purchased it back in March this year.

I also plan to use the ROLI 2 with other libraries, and synths. 

I totally agree with you that the secret to getting SWAM to sound very realistic, is to be able to control multiple parameters, in real time. and perform them just like a real instrument would be performed. I have quite a few Controllers I'm experimenting with already, sometimes I feel I'm a test-pilot rather than a musician when using multiple controller for SWAM, and other virtual instruments. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## HCMarkus (Nov 9, 2022)

Just in case it's not been noted: SWAM On Sale, 30% Off, now happening.






Site







www.audiodeluxe.com





You can subtract a little AudioDeluxe bonus from the price if you buy there.


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## muziksculp (Nov 9, 2022)

I have the entire SWAM collection already.

Looking forward to SWAM String Ensembles release next year.

30% Off sale on SWAM is a very good discount for those who are looking to buy more SWAMs , or want to start to SWAM a bit. Haha I love saying SWAM


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## lychee (Nov 9, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I ordered a ROLI Seaboard 2 in March this year, hoping to get it this month, but I haven't received a shipping notification so far from ROLI.
> 
> What's wrong with the Seabord 2 ? why should I wait for Osmose, or Expressive E ?
> 
> ...


Sorry for the misunderstanding, it is true that my comment makes people think that the Roli product is not good when it is not.
I was saying that believing that you were still thinking about it and that you hadn't purchased the product yet.
For me the Expressive E solution is at the top of the MPE instrument, without breaking the basics of a traditional keyboard.
After I am not a keyboardist and I base myself on what I saw on video, so we can't take my opinion as an absolute fact.


Windbag said:


> Experimental synth shenanigans aside, the SWAM strings are the best reason I've come across to get a Roli, since the surface makes such a close analog to a fingerboard. It allows natural vibrato performance, portamento/gliss, and justification/intonation sweetening all at the same time due to the continuous surface - that won't be the case for individual keys like the Osmose.


I think that on the contrary it is possible on the Osmose everything that the Roli does and in a simpler way for my taste.
For example, the Roli has a large surface on which you can slide from one note to another and control your portamento as you wish.
While on the Osmose, you press your first note, then your target note, and the note will slide according to the speed or you release the first note, which I find less physical and more natural (again from my point of view).


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## muziksculp (Nov 9, 2022)

Hi @lychee ,

Thanks for clarifying your post. 

I love using alternative controllers. Looking forward to enjoy using the ROLI Seaboard 2 when it arrives this month. But I'm also open to consider other controllers like the Expressive E in the future. Is it shipping already ? Have you ordered one ? 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## muziksculp (Nov 9, 2022)

Oh.. OK, I checked it's still not available yet.

$1799. (not a cheap controller).


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## lychee (Nov 9, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @lychee ,
> 
> Thanks for clarifying your post.
> 
> ...


No unfortunately it's not available, the design of the product has been hampered by the pandemic, I don't know where it is today, but it's time for it to come out and like the Seabord, I feel that a revolution is on the way.
Unfortunately, putting an Osmose in my hands would be like giving caviar to a pig, as said above I don't play the keyboard, I compose on the piano roll.
But this Osmosis makes me want to get started, plus I have the budget for it.


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## lychee (Nov 9, 2022)

I love people's reactions on the second video I posted above, you can tell people are really in love with the instrument:



lychee said:


>


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## lychee (Nov 9, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Oh.. OK, I checked it's still not available yet.
> 
> $1799. (not a cheap controller).


Yes, it's quite expensive, but it's not just a keyboard controller, it includes an audio engine (EaganMatrix), and it sounds very good.



I promise, I'll stop going off topic here.


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## muziksculp (Nov 9, 2022)

lychee said:


> I promise, I'll stop going off topic here.


No worries, you are still within the topic.

I'm will most likely buy it when it becomes available. I hope they have built enough of these things to ship. I also wonder where they are built ? China ? UK ? or ... ?


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## Windbag (Nov 10, 2022)

lychee said:


> While on the Osmose, you press your first note, then your target note, and the note will slide according to the speed or you release the first note, which I find less physical and more natural (again from my point of view).


This is super cool - hadn't seen that. I would very much like to get my hands on one of those, too (whenever they ship them)...but it's probably modeled _winds_ that I think I'd use it most for - where note velocity translates so well to transition time. i've been reverting to my 88 for those, using the roli only for pitch bend.

I can tell that relative pressure thing would take me some getting used to...I'd have to try it but am quite happy with the way the roli interacts with SWAM strings in particular, based on how many realistic inputs happen subconsciously. 

I am watching for a black friday deal on Expressive E's Touché....I suspect that would make another pretty ideal setup for these strings: X-axis movement for pitch, y-axis movement for bow position, z for bow pressure. Then using a foot pedal for expr (for the non-breath-controller-inclined) you'd have a lot of pretty well-matched control input with a standard keyboard.


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## DoubleTap (Nov 10, 2022)

So... how good are the Woodwinds and the Brass really? Um. Asking for my bank balance. 

And if a breath controller is essential, can anyone recommend one?


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## Markrs (Nov 10, 2022)

DoubleTap said:


> So... how good are the Woodwinds and the Brass really? Um. Asking for my bank balance.
> 
> And if a breath controller is essential, can anyone recommend one?


I was deciding whether to get the full bundle. I listened to the examples online of the brass and woodwinds and decided that whilst they were agile and were quite realistic sounding, they still have that bright, thin synth sound. I decided to just get the Strings and Saxes in the end.


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## DoubleTap (Nov 10, 2022)

Markrs said:


> I was deciding whether to get the full bundle. I listened to the examples online of the brass and woodwinds and decided that whilst they were agile and were quite realistic sounding, they still have that bright, thin synth sound. I decided to just get the Strings and Saxes in the end.


Are you happy with the saxes? I've been intending to wait for Straight Ahead Samples to put their Horn Trio and Clarinet on sale, but I'm very taken by the SWAM.


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## Markrs (Nov 10, 2022)

DoubleTap said:


> Are you happy with the saxes? I've been intending to wait for Straight Ahead Samples to put their Horn Trio and Clarinet on sale, but I'm very taken by the SWAM.


I got them yesterday and try to test them, but I listened to some YouTube videos and comments on the Swam Vs V Horns thread. I decided that whilst V Horn saxes have the best intonation, SWAM saxes still sound really good and are agile which is essential for saxes.





__





SWAM Saxes vs VHorns Saxes


Wow! I was unaware of VHorns until I saw this yesterday. I'm a long time user of all things SWAM (and SM). This is the first time I've heard something that was in the same ballpark. I bought the VHorn Saxes and am super super impressed. I had just finished a pretty involved arrangement and...




vi-control.net


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## ChickenAndARoll (Nov 10, 2022)

DoubleTap said:


> Are you happy with the saxes? I've been intending to wait for Straight Ahead Samples to put their Horn Trio and Clarinet on sale, but I'm very taken by the SWAM.


You can email Audio Modeling support to get a free trial for several weeks. I'm getting the woodwinds bundle due to being impressed especially by the saxes and clarinet during my free trial, and I just sent an email to ask for a trial of the strings and brass


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## DoubleTap (Nov 10, 2022)

ChickenAndARoll said:


> You can email Audio Modeling support to get a free trial for several weeks. I'm getting the woodwinds bundle due to being impressed especially by the saxes and clarinet during my free trial, and I just sent an email to ask for a trial of the strings and brass


Thanks - I should do that, didn’t realise you could demo. How about the breath control bit? I’ve seen people say it’s an essential item.


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## DoubleTap (Nov 10, 2022)

Markrs said:


> I got them yesterday and try to test them, but I listened to some YouTube videos and comments on the Swam Vs V Horns thread. I decided that whilst V Horn saxes have the best intonation, SWAM saxes still sound really good and are agile which is essential for saxes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I’d been reading through that too - thanks  Let us know how you get on with them!


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## ChickenAndARoll (Nov 10, 2022)

DoubleTap said:


> Thanks - I should do that, didn’t realise you could demo. How about the breath control bit? I’ve seen people say it’s an essential item.


I have straight up been using CC1 and velocity control only on my keyboard to test out my ideas and that sounds great on it's own (there is a preset for this setup in the settings), then I program the parts in and only edit the velocity, vibrato, and CC1 and have gotten great results from that alone. I honestly don't think it's necessary to get a breath controller unless you really want to get into the weeds in terms of granular control, but from the 3 parameters I mentioned earlier, you can already get great sounding results! 

This is honestly easier to program than traditional sample libraries due to being able to keep everything on one track and not have to worry about switching articulations.


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## jonnybutter (Nov 10, 2022)

DoubleTap said:


> Thanks - I should do that, didn’t realise you could demo. How about the breath control bit? I’ve seen people say it’s an essential item.


As far as I know the one most people get is the TEControl. I have had a couple and they work very well. A little expensive, but it’s a specialty item so, whatever. There’s also an 8 or 900 euro one made of wood etc. Looks very lux but not worth spending that much for me.

I have found no replacement for the SWAM saxes and double reeds. I prefer Sample Modeling for brass. Almost pulled the trigger on the SWAM strings but I just never liked the way they sound, and balked. Did upgrade the saxes and double reeds though, and must say it was worth it. Improved sounds and vastly improved GUI


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## philthevoid (Nov 10, 2022)

Markrs said:


> I got them yesterday and try to test them, but I listened to some YouTube videos and comments on the Swam Vs V Horns thread. I decided that whilst V Horn saxes have the best intonation, SWAM saxes still sound really good and are agile which is essential for saxes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Would you mind describing what you mean when you talk about swam saxes being "agile"?
I've seen this come up a few times too when reading on comparisons with v-horns. I thought I knew what people meant when they said a library was agile but now I'm not so sure anymore. 😅


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## Windbag (Nov 10, 2022)

DoubleTap said:


> Thanks - I should do that, didn’t realise you could demo. How about the breath control bit? I’ve seen people say it’s an essential item.


I would say so...both essential and just fun. IMHO you're missing out if you're just programming in, and I can't recommend the BBC2 enough. 

Some off-the-cuff opinions for those considering.....

_stuff I have: _

*Strings* - the best there is if given enough input. I have the violin and cello and have been able to get any sound I want - using them as first chair over sampled sections takes everything up a notch

*Flutes* - mostly great, still iffy in upper registers (piccolo is fine though) but flawless down lower and plenty good enough for me to abandon sample libraries

*Reeds* - Amazing all the way around. A little surprising as I didn't much like the few demos I'd heard (particularly the oboe)....after mapping "formant" to bite pressure they really came alive and the oboe is probably my favorite. 

_Stuff I don't have (yet) _

*Clarinets *- timbre too jazz-focused for me to have picked up yet, but there may be alternate models that work for orchestra. I may BF these just for the bass clarinet and will find out

*Saxes* - Sound good to me even without the extra CCs i use. I suspect that realtime controls á la my reeds setup would make these nearly indistinguishable from a session recording

*Brass* - Improving but haven't tempted me away from Samplemodeling, which is still the gold standard to me.


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## Markrs (Nov 10, 2022)

philthevoid said:


> Would you mind describing what you mean when you talk about swam saxes being "agile"?
> I've seen this come up a few times too when reading on comparisons with v-horns. I thought I knew what people meant when they said a library was agile but now I'm not so sure anymore. 😅


Agile in the sense that it can recreate all the sounds and techniques of a real saxophone. As it is physically modelled to is not limited by sample layery. You can have any rate of vibrato, intensity, etc. Because the SWAM are full recreations of the instruments you have huge amount of control of the sound that is produced, based on the parameters you want to use.


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## Markrs (Nov 10, 2022)

I was really tempted to get the all-bundle as I had a EDU discount that was discounting the 30% off as well, but it was still about $500 which is a lot of money, especially as I reduce down what I spend. 

My other concern with SWAM is the upgrade fee for new versions which with the all-bundle would have been expensive.

I also wonder if I would have used them all to their full benefit. I don’t write music that normally calls for agile woodwinds. I do like Jazz big band and jazz noir style music, but the brass sounded too synth like for me. 

One of the main advantages to getting them all was that I use Divisimate and they have templates for SWAM that can use their orchestration presets. When I listened back to the orchestra and big band versions, they did sound thin and have a synth sound when everything playing was SWAM instruments. When played individually I think SWAM sound amazing but I find the more you add off them the more synth, thin sound you hear versus adding in more traditional or partially modelled instruments into the mix.


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## philthevoid (Nov 10, 2022)

Markrs said:


> Agile in the sense that it can recreate all the sounds and techniques of a real saxophone. As it is physically modelled to is not limited by sample layery. You can have any rate of vibrato, intensity, etc. Because the SWAM are full recreations of the instruments you have huge amount of control of the sound that is produced, based on the parameters you want to use.


Yeah ok. That's kinda what I had in mind. It was my impression that v-horns saxes were also very agile. But I guess I'll see for myself when they start their BF sale!


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## jonnybutter (Nov 11, 2022)

Windbag said:


> I would say so...both essential and just fun. IMHO you're missing out if you're just programming in, and I can't recommend the BBC2 enough.
> 
> Some off-the-cuff opinions for those considering.....
> 
> ...


Thanks for your post Windbag. Any tips on getting the SWAM strings to sound good and not so “resiny”? I have not demoed them myself but keep a close eye on them and other’s demos. FWIW, I do have the Sample Modeling strings, and have been pretty disappointed. Maybe I am missing some vital programming detail but - honestly, doing less (not to say “zero”) programming and more playing is the reason I have these modeled instruments.

I use the LASS first chairs or Bohemian sometimes, for the leading edge in string parts. Do you make big ensembles with the SWAM strings? Or just use it for the bite/leading edge?

thanks in advance. Cheers


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## HCMarkus (Nov 11, 2022)

I don't try to make big ensembles with SWAM or SM Strings; like Windbag, I use them on top of sampled strings when heading for big... they provide detail, bite and fluidity that can make a sampled section come alive. Most importantly for me, in exposed solo/small ensemble sections, the modeled instruments connect notes just beautifully. For me, this is the area most sampled instruments are lacking.



Windbag said:


> I would say so...both essential and just fun. IMHO you're missing out if you're just programming in, and I can't recommend the BBC2 enough.
> 
> *Reeds* - Amazing all the way around. A little surprising as I didn't much like the few demos I'd heard (particularly the oboe)....after mapping "formant" to bite pressure they really came alive and the oboe is probably my favorite.


Let me reiterate this: BC is simply ESSENTIAL when using SWAM or SM instruments. I'm gonna' try bite control (probably with fairly slow attack/release) on SWAM Oboe formant; thanks for the suggestion Windbag.


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## Windbag (Nov 11, 2022)

jonnybutter said:


> Do you make big ensembles with the SWAM strings? Or just use it for the bite/leading edge?


I've had neither the occasion nor the resources to do do a big SWAMsemble just yet - i've used them in quartet and over LASS, though one of the videos earlier pairing them with CSS is the best I i've heard these sound.

I think I would limit ensemble parts to the number of model variations there are (i.e. there are essentially 3 different violin bodies, not counting the electrics) to see if that gets around the phasey 'sameness' I recall from the large ensemble attempts I've heard.



jonnybutter said:


> Any tips on getting the SWAM strings to sound good and not so “resiny”? I have not demoed them myself but keep a close eye on them and other’s demos.


heh..there is a "rosin" setting...but I think a lot of this just comes down to technique. These are closer to instruments of their own than sample libraries and it takes specificity and (in my case) practice to get the results you want.

Specificity: make the most of the available controls (especially expression, pitch, bow pressure, and bow position) and make sure they move with your lines. These are things players to either intentionally or naturally that a simulation won't unless you tell it to...and you will hear the difference

Practice: If you're playing realtime, map those controls to the physical inputs you have that best match the gestures demanded of string player, and spend some time with it. I find that my 4th, 5th, (12th, 37th ) take is far better than my first...but it still takes me less time and produces better results than pulling curve points around after the fact.

Also I think it got sorta cut off a few posts back - but I posted this vid in another thread specifically to illustrate the effect technique has on timbre:



Windbag said:


> View attachment SWAMCello_Weepy.mp4


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## jonnybutter (Nov 11, 2022)

Windbag said:


> I've had neither the occasion nor the resources to do do a big SWAMsemble just yet - i've used them in quartet and over LASS, though one of the videos earlier pairing them with CSS is the best I i've heard these sound.
> 
> I think I would limit ensemble parts to the number of model variations there are (i.e. there are essentially 3 different violin bodies, not counting the electrics) to see if that gets around the phasey 'sameness' I recall from the large ensemble attempts I've heard.
> 
> ...


Nice technique! Seems like your velocity is usually low, and expression (a BC?) also stays fairly low - you really save those higher values, and pull back from them quickly.

Seems like the big problem is attacks, so hitting them and then pulling back seems effective. I always have problems doing baroque type string music with sample libraries and modeling (so far) because playing in a rhythmically regular way - as it were, percussively - w/little or no vibrato just always sounds bad after a while. Maybe it’s worth investigating bow pressure and some other paramerters? I am considering SWAM while they’re on sale. Have heard some good demos including yours. Thanks for the tips and demo!


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## fakemaxwell (Nov 11, 2022)

Windbag said:


> I think I would limit ensemble parts to the number of model variations there are (i.e. there are essentially 3 different violin bodies, not counting the electrics) to see if that gets around the phasey 'sameness' I recall from the large ensemble attempts I've heard.


Do you have MIR? Solved this for me instantly.


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## ChickenAndARoll (Nov 11, 2022)

Markrs said:


> I was really tempted to get the all-bundle as I had a EDU discount that was discounting the 30% off as well, but it was still about $500 which is a lot of money, especially as I reduce down what I spend.
> 
> My other concern with SWAM is the upgrade fee for new versions which with the all-bundle would have been expensive.
> 
> ...


I'm curious, how did you get the EDU discount on top of the 30% off? I got an EDU discount, but it takes 50% off the original price, not the Black Friday prices


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## Markrs (Nov 11, 2022)

ChickenAndARoll said:


> I'm curious, how did you get the EDU discount on top of the 30% off? I got an EDU discount, but it takes 50% off the original price, not the Black Friday prices


It was a short term glitch that someone pointed out on here. I think I bought the same day as the 30% deal went live.


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## jonnybutter (Nov 12, 2022)

Windbag said:


> Specificity: make the most of the available controls (especially expression, pitch, bow pressure, and bow position) and make sure they move with your lines. These are things players to either intentionally or naturally that a simulation won't unless you tell it to...and you will hear the difference
> 
> Practice: If you're playing realtime, map those controls to the physical inputs you have that best match the gestures demanded of string player, and spend some time with it. I find that my 4th, 5th, (12th, 37th ) take is far better than my first...but it still takes me less time and produces better results than pulling curve points around after the fact.


Very good advice indeed. I actually went back to the Sample Modeling strings I already have (the solo strings, not ensembles), and am getting better results by just practicing and working on it, controller-wise. Btw, I know they aren’t for everyone, but I find the breath controller to be just indispensable even on strings. Anyway it works for me 

Cheers


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## PerryD (Nov 27, 2022)

I thought about V Horns saxes as well but I'm pretty happy with my Audio modeling SWAM saxes...


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## Markrs (Nov 27, 2022)

PerryD said:


> I thought about V Horns saxes as well but I'm pretty happy with my Audio modeling SWAM saxes...


Love it Perry ❤️


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## Bruhelius (Dec 18, 2022)

Here is a chamber ensemble strings trial using a combination of assembled AM solo, SM solo, and Synful Orchestra solo strings (for some grit) and MIR 3D. I've advanced significantly some of the multi-mapping controls using the new version of MIDI Mapper X's morph feature (can only be done in Reaper) which allows channel pressure to affect the degree of morphing between two CC curves while moving the mod wheel. All humanization is done under the hood using Reaper's MIDI plugins. I just busked a few lines for VI1/VI2/VA/CE/BA. I used only the modwheel and pressure. No post editing required.


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