# Composing VS Primary job , no ideas



## SBK (Mar 23, 2018)

Psychological read attention!

Hey there,

There are lately times that I feel very "empty", fantasy wise , or inspiration wise when I am into composing.

I think it has to do that I work on other things than music to be able to survive (earning money) that they also need my attention and I have to progress there and become better too like in composing music.

Composing music is my life thought... 
I can compose some few things but then I stop coming up with something nice... Like the ideas have stopped and something needs to trigger me

It wasn't always like that though. I remember a time where ideas where already there in dozens

Was wondering if you guys that you do more things as a primary job for earning money along with composing music (that you want to make a primary work too) , do you think that the work is "draining" you from ideas for composing?


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## MatFluor (Mar 23, 2018)

Composing currently is not my primary job (working towards it eagerly though).

I don't find my dayjob takes inspiration or fantasy away - I might have the freshest head in the evening, but that's not the problem there.

You sounds like in a rut, so you just need to get out. Simplest: just write - doesn't matter if it's terrible, just go on. You can always tweak it to make it nice. If you depsarately need ideas, you could look at some nice pictures (e.g. Artwork of Magic the Gathering) and get inspired by this - or pick some random images, arrange them into a story, pick a few pictures and make a mood board, roll some dice where 1-6 are notes or intervals and play them in the order you threw them....

Fantasy and inspiration is not something magical that "somehow happens", it's something you can train and cultivate. I remember many moons ago when I was in the middle of composing powermetal - I could sit in the recording room away from the band, 2 hours later I would come out with a song completely done, out of nothing. Nowadays it isn't like that anymore, and I suspect mostly because I got "lazy" in cultivating my craft, because "it just worked". So now, I have to rebuild that craftiness or creativity.

Paraphrasing from Twyla Tharp: Creativity is a habit.


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## SBK (Mar 23, 2018)

Very inspiring man! Nice things you mention there! Sometimes you need someone to trigger you like this! This has been very helpful for me! And you are right, maybe I am lazy lately 

I think also that the DAW that inspires you is a must. I mean lately in Reaper, which is great DAW, I find it very uninspiring graphicaly...


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## Leon Portelance (Apr 20, 2018)

My other job went from VP, Senior Project Manager at JPMorgan Chase Bank at six figures a year to Social Security Disability for life about 5 years ago.


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## KEM (Apr 21, 2018)

I do find that having a full time job can be a little depressing and disheartening, but at 20 years old that’s pretty much what I’ve got to do until I’m able to get somewhere with my composing career.

I usually just try to ignore what happens in the day to day life at work and keep my mind preoccupied with music, that way I can flood my mind with ideas to work on when I get home, my performance at work may suffer because of it, but I really couldn’t care less haha.


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## MatFluor (Apr 21, 2018)

It highly depends on the dayjob. If you work something you don't like and just do it because you need water and power at home, that's not right.

Whatever you do you should like it. My dayjob is being a scientific researcher (computational linguistics) and a large part of that in turn is programming, creating concepts and all that. I like that - and when I go full-time on music, I keep programming as my hobby. Maybe focus more on KSP programming though to get a good benefit out of it 

Bottom Line is - do what you enjoy - and most often there are multiple things you enjoy working - even if music is your heart and soul, it doesn't mean you have to work on a heart- and soulless dayjob. If music doesn't support you financially yet, choose a dayjob that keeps you financially afloat, let's you have time for music and is something you can be passionate about as well.

I personally would not be passionate as a sales clerk - but I'm a programmer at heart, as well as musician. So - I do both, and I'm very happy with both. I will scale down on my dayjob over time, but it doesn't mean I want to do it less - it just means I need more time for my greater passion.


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## Rodney Money (Apr 21, 2018)

Charles Ives's was a husband, father, and his day job was director of an insurance firm while he composed in the afternoons and weekends. What was his secret? Passion. No excuses.


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## dannymc (Apr 21, 2018)

Rodney Money said:


> Charles Ives's was a husband, father, and his day job was director of an insurance firm while he composed in the afternoons and weekends. What was his secret? Passion. No excuses.



also probably a little bit of talent and a whole lot of hard work 

Danny


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## wst3 (Apr 21, 2018)

It is a balancing act, but near as I can tell, that's life! (what's life? A magazine. How much does it cost? Ten Cents. I only have a nickel. That's Life...) (Sorry, couldn't resist!)

My career has been, oh what's the word... a little bit scattered. I started out as an engineer designing circuits and systems for communications, a field that still fascinates me. Somehow I ended up becoming a software engineer, designing call processing code for embedded telephony devices. That led to Unix system administration (self defense<G>) which led to consulting. I enjoyed every job for a very long time, the people that I worked with were awesome. Then the investment bankers discovered they could flip companies at a profit and the community fell apart.

At which point I returned to one part of my first love - audio engineering. That's the day job now, and I enjoy going to work every day. The people I work with are wonderful, the work is challenging, what's not to like?

Oh yeah, the other part of my first love - music. So I keep at that too.

When I do look back I realize that no matter the day job I have always been doing those things that I love - designing circuits, systems, and even studios for music production, and writing music for a variety of outlets, mostly (lately) live theatre - and before someone thinks I'm brilliant, this is not a financially rewarding path, at least not yet.

Anyway, when I was single (first 40 years), it was really pretty easy to balance day job and side jobs. There were times when demands competed for time, but oddly enough it was often that I over extended myself on the side jobs.

Then I got married, we started a family, and that's a whole 'nother job. Which I loved. Which I still love, although it is much more challenging since Judi died. Family has been priority #1 since I met her, and I don't see that changing any time soon - or ever. While we were together she was very supportive - in fact there were times when she would chase me INTO the studio to get something finished.

It's been only a few months since my world changed, and until very recently I struggled to spend any time in the studio - not that I couldn't make time, but I just couldn't drum up any interest. I've crossed that hurdle, so now it is all about making (not finding) time to work on things. I've got a project with a stupid short deadline so that helps.

As has been the case all along, it is a simple (?) matter of identifying that which needs to be done, prioritizing those things, and then making the time to get them done.

If the result is I make money from each activity then I am a happy man. But strangely, even when I end up breaking even (or worse) I'm still happy.

(why yes, it has taken some time to get here!)


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## jiffybox (Apr 21, 2018)

That was inspiring, encouraging, and touching, Bill. Thank you for sharing.


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## Parsifal666 (Apr 21, 2018)

This is the job I have, my wife works and pays for half the bills. I live in a small two bedroom apartment in a small offshoot of a small city. But I have her, and I get to do what I love. I'm more than good with that.

I honestly would never try to break someone's bubble (certainly not in an unnecessarily cynical or mean-spirited way), so I'll just give the standard answer I give to younger folks asking me about breaking into a career in music: if you're not doing it out of love don't do it. Financial rewards most often come to people who know somebody (I lucked out in a BIG way early on in that area). The odds aren't quite as long as becoming a heavyweight champion in boxing, but they're out there.

I think whenever angst sets in, ask yourself whether you could take it if it turns out there's no way music will turn into a career for you. Be set for disappointment (while doing what your heart tells you to do, anyway).

If the worse happens (no money, no interest outside of immediate family and friends), then you can still be really happy just making music as a hobby. I was there early on, and my girl stayed with me and supported me for a time because she knew what it meant to me, and she loved me. That to me was even better than making the music!

That evil word "hobby". Last person I mentioned that word to looked at me like anathema...such people are the ones who might end up with their heart broken badly.

Don't let that be you. Compose like you're positive you're going to make it, and are going to give every bit of yourself in the journey. If it doesn't do anything, you still did it. And that's not just fine...it's terrific, especially if you have an s.o. whom understands and loves you no matter what happens with the music.


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## Desire Inspires (Apr 21, 2018)

Leon Portelance said:


> My other job went from VP, Senior Project Manager at JPMorgan Chase Bank at six figures a year to Social Security Disability for life about 5 years ago.



Sorry to hear that. What happened?


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## Leon Portelance (Apr 21, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> Sorry to hear that. What happened?



5 years ago I fell off of an extension ladder at 16’ and landed on my head. I was in a coma for 6 weeks. I can’t walk now without a rollator or with a cane for short distances. I can no longer play my guitars or piano except a bit with my right hand. I lost a lot of my hearing because I smashed my ear socket on the right side.


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## Desire Inspires (Apr 21, 2018)

Leon Portelance said:


> 5 years ago I fell off of an extension ladder at 16’ and landed on my head. I was in a coma for 6 weeks. I can’t walk now without a rollator or with a cane for short distances. I can no longer play my guitars or piano except a bit with my right hand. I lost a lot of my hearing because I smashed my ear socket on the right side.



My goodness, how horrible!

We all should take out time to be thankful for what we have. Life can change in an instant.


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## Leon Portelance (Apr 21, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> My goodness, how horrible!
> 
> We all should take out time to be thankful for what we have. Life can change in an instant.



Yes. It can change in an instant. One moment it was Aug 28, I was installing some internet connectors on my studio and then I woke up in a hospital bed on Oct. 16 and my wife told me what happened.


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## Replicant (Apr 21, 2018)

SBK said:


> Was wondering if you guys that you do more things as a primary job for earning money along with composing music (that you want to make a primary work too) , do you think that the work is "draining" you from ideas for composing?



Crap dayjobs don't drain of you ideas, they basically drain you of life. If you work a dayjob that is just depressing by itself, I find you have less desire to do anything except get out of that situation.

That being said, the quest should be to find a dayjob or career that you actually like — The truth is, that's where most of us will always be.


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## Parsifal666 (Apr 21, 2018)

Replicant said:


> Crap dayjobs don't drain of you ideas, they basically drain you of life. If you work a dayjob that is just depressing by itself, I find you have less desire to do anything except get out of that situation.
> 
> That being said, the quest should be to find a dayjob or career that you actually like — The truth is, that's where most of us will always be.



This is even more insightful than it might first read.

Keep your dream alive in terms of funds as long as you and your s.o. are okay with it. When it looks like zero return for the foreseeable future, there's nothing ignoble about maybe taking a training course or even finishing school. Keep writing if you want of course...but this perspective can guarantee you don't go through the awful disappointments. 

Now that I think of it, awful disappointments can sometimes be just the thing to get a person back on track with their life.


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## Replicant (Apr 21, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> This is even more insightful than it might first read.
> 
> Keep your dream alive in terms of funds as long as you and your s.o. are okay with it. When it looks like zero return for the foreseeable future, there's nothing ignoble about maybe taking a training course or even finishing school. Keep writing if you want of course...but this perspective can guarantee you don't go through the awful disappointments.
> 
> Now that I think of it, awful disappointments can sometimes be just the thing to get a person back on track with their life.



I never intend to hurt butts when I say these kinds of things on here, but there are obviously a lot of "artistic" thinkers here, and the more artistic someone is, the less ability they have to think pragmatically or follow conventional wisdom as they tend to feel the world truly is as they see it through this idealistic lens. 

There are also a lot of people on these forums in particular who were ostensibly born into the musical elite or have otherwise been a part of it for so long that they have no real understanding of what pursuing this career is actually like for 99% of people.

The painful truth is that you can be a great composer, you can have tons of good contacts, you can work on tons of great indie projects and even some bigger projects, you can do everything "right" and still have to pump gas to pay your bills _your whole life. 
_
Then along comes some 18 year old or something who puts in half the work you do, has half the knowledge, and just plays block chords with his left hand and he winds up making a killing and never has to work a real job just because he got lucky.

I get why that kinda thing is frustrating to people, but it _always_ comes down to luck. You have no idea who you are going to meet, when or where. You have no idea if the job (assuming they can even give you one) will lead to anything better, you have no idea where or even if the next job will come from and worst of all...you have no _control_ over any of it.

This idea that is often sold that boils down to just "keep at that lame day job until you make it!" is bad because it assumes that eventually you _will _make it and encourages people to put off pursuing anything better career wise because it will take away time from the composer dream. Before you know it, 20 years has gone by of slaving away at minimum wage or part-time jobs that you could easily ditch the day "the dream" comes true.

There you'll be. Past your prime, possibly still single (depending on how much you sacrificed in service of the dream), with no strong career prospects possibly ever again ahead of you, and still depressed. No amount of indie game and film credits is going to make that go away.

It's a lot sadder to wind up like that than it is to just accept it's probably never going to happen and make a better life for yourself through other means.


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## Parsifal666 (Apr 22, 2018)

I want to see everybody here see their dreams come true. What I don't want are good people getting shattered through the perpetuation of ultimately self-destructive goals. If it doesn't work out, you'll be so much happier if you have a back up plan. That's just what smart people do.


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## MatFluor (Apr 22, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> I want to see everybody here see their dreams come true. What I don't want are good people getting shattered through the perpetuation of ultimately self-destructive goals. If it doesn't work out, you'll be so much happier if you have a back up plan. That's just what smart people do.



Yes, backup plans are essential. Never lay your eggs in one basket. If my plan of becoming fulltime composer don't work out - I still have a fallback as a coder or maybe other freelance ventures that are not directly music. Or instead of going solo, build a team, join a team or become an assistant. All is possible and is just a matter of planning ahead.


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## Replicant (Apr 22, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> I want to see everybody here see their dreams come true. What I don't want are good people getting shattered through the perpetuation of ultimately self-destructive goals. If it doesn't work out, you'll be so much happier if you have a back up plan. That's just what smart people do.



I agree.

I actually know at least one middle-aged guy who's back living with his parents, unable to accept that music is obviously not going to be his life.

Inevitably, these guys wind up being the "what if?" types of people.



MatFluor said:


> Yes, backup plans are essential. Never lay your eggs in one basket. If my plan of becoming fulltime composer don't work out - I still have a fallback as a coder or maybe other freelance ventures that are not directly music. Or instead of going solo, build a team, join a team or become an assistant. All is possible and is just a matter of planning ahead.



The thing is, and again overtly-artistic people tend to have a difficult time with this — we get one shot at this life and you've got to make _something_ out of it.

In a couple days, I'll be 26; ticking the "almost thirty" box on plenty of surveys. That'll be 7 years since my first, and to date, best composing gig. Perhaps I shouldn't admit that for professional reasons, but 19-year-old me could simply not have imagined that nigh 10 years later he'd actually be finding it more difficult to get gigs as the indie game scene isn't quite what it used to be. "It can only go up from here!" younger me would cheerfully state.

It can go up, it can go down, and it can get caught in a _very_ _lengthy_ doldrum. With each year that goes by, you starting asking yourself more often if it's _really_ worth it.

So "almost thirty" me thinks a lot more about the future, how fast 7 years went by, and how fast the next 7 will go and how they too may not hold anything better musically. I'm gradually losing the desire to put up with pursuing gigs, networking, and the other bullshit involved in "making it".

The two types of people I speak about will consider this a lack of dedication or something. All I know is, when I'm 40, I'll be on a beach somewhere drinking rum without a worry and my music will be there when I get home. That's a lot better than being 40, broke, and putting up with daily strife because "one day..."


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## Parsifal666 (Apr 22, 2018)

MatFluor said:


> Yes, backup plans are essential..



There's no shame in it...in fact, such plans have the potential to make you a very happy person. 

There's also no shame in having hobbies and admitting forthrightly that's what they are.


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## MatFluor (Apr 22, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> There's no shame in it...in fact, such plans have the potential to make you a very happy person.
> 
> There's also no shame in having hobbies and admitting forthrightly that's what they are.



True. I believe there are more than one thing that makes a person happy - if you only have one, then you are in a different way "poor".

That said, I pursue music as career/job. And if I can believe some random soundcloud guy, I have a severe lack of talent and am a f'ing goober. So that's that.


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## Parsifal666 (Apr 22, 2018)

MatFluor said:


> True. I believe there are more than one thing that makes a person happy - if you only have one, then you are in a different way "poor".
> 
> That said, I pursue music as career/job. And if I can believe some random soundcloud guy, I have a severe lack of talent and am a f'ing goober. So that's that.



I think you might want to give everything to what your heart tells you. You already have the common sense thing down.

Don't put yourself down, people will be too ready to agree with you my friend (and they definitely don't know what's best all the time now, do they).

Go for it anyway; it's obvious your head is screwed on straight so you'll know when it's out of control.

Be happy, man.


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## AlexandraMusic (May 1, 2018)

This is something I have been battling with for a little while also.

What a dream it would be to make a living from the thing you love the most! but of course, backup plans are essential and I am trying to focus on a backup plan that will also bring me happiness and meaning to my life.

Ideally, this would still be music related, as it's 'home' for me. In the end, I just want to be a part of something I believe in  (sorry for the soppyness)


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## Desire Inspires (May 1, 2018)

Replicant said:


> Crap dayjobs don't drain of you ideas, they basically drain you of life. If you work a dayjob that is just depressing by itself, I find you have less desire to do anything except get out of that situation.
> 
> That being said, the quest should be to find a dayjob or career that you actually like — The truth is, that's where most of us will always be.



Yes!

Just find a good day job instead of whining. Many people would die to have a boring but stable job that allowed them to take care of their families.

Music is cool, but if it isn’t providing for you, why be miserable? There are so many jobs outside of becoming a film composer that need to be done and that pays well. 

I don’t think many people would even like being a film composer, as I know people will get bored and say “it’s becoming like a day job”. Then what? Quit and become a surfer?

Just enjoy what you have. Life is long and then it is over. So go have some fun instead of struggling to gain a career in music that you will probably not even love if you get it.


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## Erick - BVA (May 1, 2018)

MatFluor said:


> Composing currently is not my primary job (working towards it eagerly though).
> 
> I don't find my dayjob takes inspiration or fantasy away - I might have the freshest head in the evening, but that's not the problem there.
> 
> ...


I think you're both right and wrong. It can just happen, but it can also be trained and cultivated. 
Some of my best music has been composed on the fly. But I've been improvising ever since I started playing guitar when I was 12, so it was no doubt something I learned to do. But the best moments are the unplanned ones. That's why I'm always recording even when I'm messing around.

i actually take a different approach when in a rut. I take a break. I've taken several day breaks, and came back with fresh ears. Sometimes you get stuck in a routine and the only way to break it is to walk a way for a bit. Go live a little and do something different. Interact with the world and people. That is sometimes where the best inspiration will come from.


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## Parsifal666 (May 1, 2018)

Sibelius19 said:


> I think you're both right and wrong. It can just happen, but it can also be trained and cultivated.
> Some of my best music has been composed on the fly. But I've been improvising ever since I started playing guitar when I was 12, so it was no doubt something I learned to do. But the best moments are the unplanned ones. That's why I'm always recording even when I'm messing around.
> 
> i actually take a different approach when in a rut. I take a break. I've taken several day breaks, and came back with fresh ears. Sometimes you get stuck in a routine and the only way to break it is to walk a way for a bit. Go live a little and do something different. Interact with the world and people. That is sometimes where the best inspiration will come from.



This is great advice for ANY endeavor imo. When I used to powerlift I took up to a week off whenever I felt my mind and/or body rebelling. Worked like a charm, I was eagerer 'n a mah to get back to it after the time off.


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## Replicant (May 1, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> Yes!
> 
> Just find a good day job instead of whining. Many people would die to have a boring but stable job that allowed them to take care of their families.
> 
> ...



I have a friend who plays in a lot of metal and rock bands, but never enough to make serious money at it. But he builds custom electric guitars, repairs them, etc. for a living. He seems pretty happy doing that.

I have another friend who also played in a lot of bands, but never made it big. He works by day in music marketing for live show promoters and such. Seems to like it.

Yet another guy, who actually did make a living playing in country bands, is now a drum instructor full-time and he tells me he enjoys it. Before he became an instructor, he was a co-worker at one of my old day jobs.

In the music, film, and game industry, there are plenty of careers that may not be the glamorous, in-the-spotlight jobs, but are still jobs that put you close to your passion and are a lot more trustworthy of putting food on your table.


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## gsilbers (May 1, 2018)

SBK said:


> Psychological read attention!
> 
> Hey there,
> 
> ...





you might be under the mistaken assumption that the emptiness /inspiration is due to work/dayjob.
composing is just another job. if you feel drained of ideas.. go and figure how to overcome it just like any job that has hurdles. its work and a lot of times its boring leg work. did you see mike veritas real time composing video where he mentions he didnt reallty want to compose anything but stil made a 3+hr long video on how he composes? 

i suggest challenges or challenging yourself. try to write 2 tracks in one day or soemthing like it. with deadlies im more full of ideas all of the sudden. 
but i quit my job a while back and thought id write more and had the similar view like yours and turns out that its the same. the more tiem you have then the more time you will procrastinate. thats the only difference. 
maybe smoke weed


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## JohnG (May 1, 2018)

Hi @Replicant 

I am glad to get your opinion since you're still on your journey and you're in the trenches.

However, some of your posts come across as "get over it, loser" to people who are over the hill in your view. You may feel this is "telling it like it is" but given that you are only 26, you can hardly have had enough experience so that yours is the only truth out there.

The music business is nothing like it once was and it is changing fast. While that means you can be knocked way down at any time, because of the chaos, things can do the opposite as well, bouncing your way. From what I can see people today care a lot less than they once did about what you look like, including how old you are.

For one thing, the era of the face-to-face collaboration is almost completely finished, so ageism, while real, is less of a thing than it was.

If you have real skills -- good with clients (can adapt to requests / handle critiques smoothly), know how to play well, how to orchestrate, how to sequence, how to use plugins and FX -- you can get quite a bit of work from any geographic location at any time.

Of course it is easier if you have more skills, it is easier if you are gregarious and maintain relationships, it is easier if your music actually has some kind of real appeal to those besides family and girlfriends. It is misguided to think that you are likely to succeed starting at an advanced age (whatever that is) knowing only a few chord changes but having nothing more than "a dream." 

But, duh. People know that unless they are stupid, and if your mission is to go on the internet and correct stupidity, good luck to you.

So I'm very glad to see your perspective since, in a changing market, it's valid and useful. But you have repeated the "sell by date" idea quite a few times now and I think people know that, or they are hopeless and saying it again is unlikely to be worth your time. And it can come across as needlessly caustic.

Good luck to you!

John


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## MarcusD (May 1, 2018)

Great thread and great posts! I think Einstein said it best
"Time is relevant to the observer". We all have a lot to juggle around in our lives, it's finding "that" routine which works for individual situations. If you don't have any routine the day -to-day will fly-by and before you know it a year or more has passed and you havent achieved what you set-out to do. More often than not you find yourself saying "I never have enough Time, to do the things I need to do". Which is something I've personally grown tired of saying... I dropped a decent paying job to have less working hours (and money) just so I could have more time to spend with my partner / family and also organise my life better so it gives me some me time.


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## CT (May 1, 2018)

Replicant said:


> The thing is, and again overtly-artistic people tend to have a difficult time with this — we get one shot at this life and you've got to make _something_ out of it.
> 
> In a couple days, I'll be 26; ticking the "almost thirty" box on plenty of surveys. That'll be 7 years since my first, and to date, best composing gig. Perhaps I shouldn't admit that for professional reasons, but 19-year-old me could simply not have imagined that nigh 10 years later he'd actually be finding it more difficult to get gigs as the indie game scene isn't quite what it used to be. "It can only go up from here!" younger me would cheerfully state.
> 
> ...



Wow... add a year to this, and it's eerily familiar.


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## Replicant (May 1, 2018)

JohnG said:


> However, some of your posts come across as "get over it, loser" to people who are over the hill in your view. You may feel this is "telling it like it is" but given that you are only 26, you can hardly have had enough experience so that yours is the only truth out there



The trouble is, I've met and jammed with quite a number of musicians older than me over the years and the thesis of my point in these conversations isn't really "get over it, loser" but more "what about the _other_ guys?" What about the silent majority?

Because like I say, most of the "old guys" shall we say, who have been at this a long time or even made it in their early 40s, tend to look back on their past and feel that their present fortunes were inevitable. We always hear from these folks, how to just keep at it, how you're "young" yet, etc.

But nobody hears from the _rest_ of the "old guys". The guy who is comin' up on 60, working a security job he hates 12 hours a day but tells every newbie on the job about that one time his band _almost_ opened for Nirvana nearly 30 years back. The guy who is living with his mom at age 40-something, unwilling to move back out because he's sure that with just a little more time, his composing career is sure to take off. The guy who is still single and working fast-food at 36 and still thinks he's gonna be a rockstar this summer. I use only real examples from my life.

We don't hear from these people because they're over on Facebook posting motivational quotes and stuff. They will not speak up and admit "Yeah, it didn't work out" because that means admitting they wasted their lives chasing something that just wasn't in the cards for them.

You either make it or you don't; if you don't, you either wind up with music as a hobby but with a good full-time career or you wind up a miserable "loser" long past your prime. I don't think a fourth outcome exists.

and it just _kills_ me to see anyone on the road to third option. I want to scream "Yeah! Just go for it! Live the dream!" but I've seen too many horror stories and people made into cautionary tales.



JohnG said:


> Good luck to you!



Thanks John, I do appreciate it!


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## MatFluor (May 1, 2018)

Replicant said:


> The trouble is, I've met and jammed with quite a number of musicians older than me over the years and the thesis of my point in these conversations isn't really "get over it, loser" but more "what about the _other_ guys?" What about the silent majority?
> 
> Because like I say, most of the "old guys" shall we say, who have been at this a long time or even made it in their early 40s, tend to look back on their past and feel that their present fortunes were inevitable. We always hear from these folks, how to just keep at it, how you're "young" yet, etc.
> 
> ...



Survival Bias is the keyword here 

I can't stand it when people who made it claim "everybody can do it, believe in yourself". Although part of that is true - it's still the viewpoint of a survivor.

It's like a Lotto winner saying "invest all your money in the lottery, it worked out for me, so it will for you too". (See attached XKCD comic)

For those who need more info on the survival bias: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias


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## Desire Inspires (May 1, 2018)

Replicant said:


> But nobody hears from the _rest_ of the "old guys". The guy who is comin' up on 60, working a security job he hates 12 hours a day but tells every newbie on the job about that one time his band _almost_ opened for Nirvana nearly 30 years back. The guy who is living with his mom at age 40-something, unwilling to move back out because he's sure that with just a little more time, his composing career is sure to take off. The guy who is still single and working fast-food at 36 and still thinks he's gonna be a rockstar this summer. I use only real examples from my life.



Those guys aren’t so bad to hang with.


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## Replicant (May 1, 2018)

MatFluor said:


> Survival Bias is the keyword here
> 
> I can't stand it when people who made it claim "everybody can do it, believe in yourself". Although part of that is true - it's still the viewpoint of a survivor.
> 
> ...




"Whether it be movie stars, or athletes, or musicians, or CEOs of multibillion-dollar corporations who dropped out of school, popular media often tells the story of the determined individual who pursues their dreams and beats the odds. There is much less focus on the many people that may be similarly skilled and determined but fail to ever find success because of factors beyond their control or other (seemingly) random events. This creates a false public perception that anyone can achieve great things if they have the ability and make the effort. The overwhelming majority of failures are not visible to the public eye, and only those who survive the selective pressures of their competitive environment are seen regularly."

and that wraps up the discussion, really.


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## Alex Fraser (May 1, 2018)

JohnG said:


> Hi @Replicant
> 
> I am glad to get your opinion since you're still on your journey and you're in the trenches.
> 
> ...


Wise words John. I'm 39 - I wonder where I fit in on this? 

Perhaps it's just me, but everyone seems to shoot for the "big stuff" - film/game/TV composer roles as the dream ticket. But those roles involve the long road and highest risks, and it's treated as if it's the only way to musical fulfilment.

But if you look to the sides, there are a lot of other opportunities to make money out of music. For example, I write R&B instrumentals for a living. There's a HUGE worldwide market for it and instant financial reward for composers. And I never see it mentioned around here. Not once. 

I think there are more opportunities than we pretend there are. Its just that for most of the gigs, you don't need your Spitfire libraries... Well, maybe Albion One.


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## jonathanprice (May 1, 2018)

I scored my first indie feature while working 9-5 at the LA Times. It was rough. I had very little energy at the end of the day. Finished it, but only by sheer will. It helped to set manageable goals for weeknights and load up the weekends. For me, though, energy and inspiration don't always have to be in sync. There are times I have plenty of energy, but the inspiration isn't there. I've got a simple inspiration exercise that works for me. If our creative processes are similar, might be something you could try.

My process of composing is pretty much editing/encouraging the sounds in my head. My internal audience listens to what my internal wellspring has to offer, and picks and chooses what it likes. So something whack with parallel minor 9ths might be playing and I'll be all hell no, and mentally discard that. But when I'm not hearing anything with a little inspired edge, my exercise is to say okay gimme that Min9 thing, let's go down that rabbit hole. And I'll hear/compose something I will never play for anyone, just to oil those creative neurons. Then when I go back to coaxing something I like, it's got that little inspired edge cuz my internal orchestra had a chance to stretch.

Best with your music.


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## gregh (May 1, 2018)

MatFluor said:


> Survival Bias is the keyword here



I think of it as the edited highlights of history


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## JJP (May 1, 2018)

Replicant said:


> There is much less focus on the many people that may be similarly skilled and determined but fail to ever find success because of factors beyond their control or other (seemingly) random events. This creates a false public perception that anyone can achieve great things if they have the ability and make the effort. The overwhelming majority of failures are not visible to the public eye, and only those who survive the selective pressures of their competitive environment are seen regularly.



And there, my friends, lies the great American myth of success. We peddle it with gusto in the USA. There is one semi-well-known orchestrator and composer here who gives lots of inspiring talks to newcomers in the industry. The theme is often, "I did this, so you can too." Sometimes it makes me want to slap that person because it's not helping these people.

When my wife and I speak with people new to the business, perhaps I should say "striving to get started", we usually talk to them about the need to understand their finances and be realistic about the volatility of this industry. We also tell them that there are more people who want to work in this business than there are jobs, and that fact will color most of the realities of their career path. For that reason they need to avoid tunnel vision about what their career should be. They need to be open to tangental opportunities that may present themselves.

I've said it on this forum before. Some people would consider me a failed composer or a failed jazz musician. Nonetheless my wife and I make a good living and have rewarding careers, in spite of supposedly not following through on our dreams.

I recently saw some comedy by Chris Rock lamenting going to his child's school orientation where an "inspirational" speaker was, in his mind, lying to the students by telling them that they could be anything they want to be. His insightful joke was, "Tell the kids, 'You can be anything you're good at... as long as they're hiring... and even then it helps to know somebody."


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## JohnG (May 1, 2018)

Replicant said:


> You either make it or you don't



I understand why people might think this but I can't agree.

When I'm outside the US and anyone discovers that I write music, they will more or less say, "how about that," or "sounds great." By contrast, people in the US often run through questions angled toward assessing how much money I make at it, implicitly conflating "success" and "professional" with money.

But that's goofy. How much money did Dante make off The Divine Comedy? How much did Maupassant make on his short stories? You can be sure that most poets never made a living from their poetry, but that doesn't diminish my regard for Elizabeth Bishop, Ezra Pound (before he lost his mind), or Robert Graves.

Sure, if you don't make any money at something, you can't devote as much time to it and so you may never be as good as you otherwise would have been. So to that extent yes, it has been great to be able to do music full time. But that doesn't invalidate the music written by someone who's only able to write once in a while but who nevertheless pulls out a gem now and then.

*What Matters?*

I don't admire people with this or that thing, or this or that bank account. I have done well but I am not proud of money or stuff I have. Instead, what I admire is compassion, humility, honesty. I admire guys who live up to their commitments to their wives and children, and who take jobs that maybe they don't want to take in order to honour those commitments.

I admire a guy I see every week, an older guy, who helps his wife with her walker or wheelchair, and smiles at her and treats her as if she is a princess, though age and ill health have long since extinguished any princess-like appearances. He is as gracious to her as if they were newlyweds.

That's what I admire.

*Semantics?*

My issue may be just with the "all or nothing" way you put things -- not sure. If you really think that "you're either the next James Newton Howard or you're zero," then I disagree. I love the guy's music, sure, but does that negate those who keep hitting singles once in a while and maybe work a second job when they have to, or when things get thin? I don't think so.

I've met plenty of creeps who have a Tesla and a "real big house." I wouldn't judge you by that and I hope you won't judge yourself. Maybe some of those guys you point to as failures are nevertheless volunteering at soup kitchens, or helping their aging parents? Maybe they give homeless people their time or money?

When you are young it's understandable to want to go fast and rise high, and I hope you do all that. But remember to be patient and compassionate too, toward others and toward yourself.


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## Replicant (May 1, 2018)

JohnG said:


> Sure, if you don't make any money at something, you can't devote as much time to it and so you may never be as good as you otherwise would have been. So to that extent yes, it has been great to be able to do music full time. But that doesn't invalidate the music written by someone who's only able to write once in a while but who nevertheless pulls out a gem now and then.



I didn't say it didn't, though.

I would say that the money aspect matters when you want to pursue it as a career; otherwise, it is almost by definition a hobby.


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## JohnG (May 1, 2018)

I know what you mean, but "hobby" has such a pejorative connotation. 

When I was maybe 16 I was playing at an open mic night at some bar where I grew up (you could do that then) and this guy steps up wearing what I remember as practically a banker outfit, borrows someone's guitar.

So we all think he's about to make a fool of himself, since he's dressed like someone's dad and is old enough to be most of our dads.

And of course he plays the most amazing, clever, imaginative, and badass solos of the entire evening, for two or three songs, then sits back down.

I found out later he'd been heading places but was felled by alcohol and really couldn't be around music because it wasn't regular and he would get into trouble.

So does that make his playing a hobby, or something else? IDK but that's why I just caution you against the all or nothing way of thinking. 

Matthew Arnold apparently chafed at his school inspector job but he nevertheless wrote "Dover Beach," a magnificent poem. How much $ did he make off it? Not much, I would guess.

So does that diminish his work? not in my view.


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## Desire Inspires (May 1, 2018)

SBK said:


> Psychological read attention!
> 
> Hey there,
> 
> There are lately times that I feel very "empty", fantasy wise , or inspiration wise when I am into composing.



So keep composing.

You don’t need inspiration to make music or art. Just do it and get it done.


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## jhughes (May 10, 2018)

SBK said:


> Psychological read attention!
> 
> Hey there,
> 
> ...



I compose in my spare time but teach and play music full-time.
Before I was a full-time musician I was a chemist for 6 years. At some point the very long hours (and not so great pay) got to me and I found when I got home I had no desire to play/practice music. I was too tired to do anything musical. It made me miserable so I quit my job.
As has already been said, you have to be smart about such decisions. I was in my 20's at the time, i couldn't make that decision today, I simply have more responsibilities and less time to create another career.
If it's time constraints-Get creative with your time. I work on music stuff in odd places because that's when I can, lol. I'll practice singing intervals or melodies in the car via solfege. I'll visualize music while I'm standing in line waiting. I take music books with me and whenever somebody makes me wait around I pull it out and read them. Or I'll have a page of score or on my phone to study anytime I'm waiting around. Older you get, the less time you have, you have to basically create it.
Idea-wise-it could be anything. You could be burned out. You may need to do more score study. You may need inspiration from some other object (a painting/book/etc). Maybe you need a break? Nothing wrong with that.


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## SBK (May 16, 2018)

Hey, found this one, looks very interesting

https://www.izotope.com/en/blog/mus...=2018+Hi+Five&utm_content=May+12&utm_term=All

It basically says when you are stuck, pick a card from http://www.oblicard.com and interpret it for your own project

:D


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