# Just starting out...what do you charge?



## tarantulis (Oct 25, 2016)

So I received a rather interesting proposition yesterday from a hypnotist who wants roughly 90 minutes of original music to use in his sessions and workshops. I'm pretty stoked as this would be my first serious paying gig. My neurotic panicky self is oddly at ease with the task, given that the style is a lot more minimal and mimicable than say, an orchestral piece or catchy single, but I have no idea what exactly it'll require or how much I'm supposed to charge for something like this. I've never even printed a contract before.

Any thoughts? I've got a meeting with him on Monday to discuss specifics.

Relative miscellaneous advice welcome as well.


----------



## mac (Oct 25, 2016)

Nice! Well for arguments sake, lets assume you might be able to crank out 9 minutes a day, so that's 10 full days work (& add an extra 20% on to be sure). Only you know what your hourly / day rate is, but _don't_ sell yourself short. He'll either accept your price, or he'll be mad that he thought he was going to get it done for next to nothing, in which case, lucky escape for you!

Decide on a realistic, reasonable rate and stick to it


----------



## d.healey (Oct 25, 2016)

Make sure you have a really clear spec from the client, in writing


----------



## chillbot (Oct 25, 2016)

Because I think you're looking for a number, I would ask for $9,000. That's a bit low, but it sounds like an easy gig and I'm guessing you'd rather land the gig than scare him off. My guess is he will either be fine with paying it or completely taken aback... he is either a guy that wants custom music, knowing full well he could go buy some generic new age CD off the rack for a few bucks, or he has no idea what custom music costs and in his mind was thinking $900 would be a reasonable price.

If you're going to negotiate with him, I would start with negotiating the amount of music, not the price-per-minute. Keep to minimum $100/minute but suggest maybe 50 minutes of music for $5,000 and as the super nice guy you are, you could loop it for him and turn it into 90 minutes of music if that's the space he needs to fill. It would be as easy as writing a 5-minute track and then just cut-and-paste loop it, almost no one would hear the difference as it's repetitive by nature.


----------



## tarantulis (Oct 25, 2016)

Thanks for the quick feedback!



d.healey said:


> Make sure you have a really clear spec from the client, in writing



That was actually my next question...how on earth does one do this? I've never written up a contract before, and I assume he would need to make some sort of committment with the possibility of backing out if he doesn't end up liking the final product (perhaps?). Is there a good thread or resource you can refer me to? I know it's a totally separate can of worms.



chillbot said:


> Because I think you're looking for a number, I would ask for $9,000. That's a bit low, but it sounds like an easy gig and I'm guessing you'd rather land the gig than scare him off. My guess is he will either be fine with paying it or completely taken aback... heis either a guy that wants custom music, knowing full well he could go buy some generic new age CD off the rack for a few bucks, or he has no idea what custom music costs and in his mind was thinking $900 would be a reasonable price.
> 
> If you're going to negotiate with him, I would start with negotiating the amount of music, not the price-per-minute. Keep to minimum $100/minute but suggest maybe 50 minutes of music for $5,000 and as the super nice guy you are, you could loop it for him and turn it into 90 minutes of music if that's the space he needs to fill. It would be as easy as writing a 5-minute track and then just cut-and-paste loop it, almost no one would hear the difference as it's repetitive by nature.



Interesting...it's both a completely reasonable price but perhaps seemingly staggering to someone unfamiliar with the process. He seems to understand the importance of it, and specifically does not want the new age sound which is why something personalized excites him so much. I remember in one of Verta's videos how he talked about just asking straight out what the budget for music was, and then going from there, but not sure that applies here since that was more film-oriented.


----------



## d.healey (Oct 26, 2016)

Get a lawyer


----------



## chillbot (Oct 26, 2016)

While working out a contract you can also negotiate who is going to own the music. If it is standard work-for-hire he would own the music (and be the publisher), he might want that to remain exclusive and not worry about hearing the music somewhere else. I would still stick to $100/minute in that case and work on how many minutes he really needs. If he doesn't care you could license the music to him, retain ownership, and then at some point in the future sell it elsewhere if the opportunity arises. With that in mind you could cut him a break (I still wouldn't) because he'd be essentially paying you to build up your own library. At first I dismissed this idea because I don't consider a huge chunk of new-age music to be commercially viable but then when you mentioned he specifically doesn't want the new-age sound...


----------



## tarantulis (Oct 26, 2016)

chillbot said:


> While working out a contract you can also negotiate who is going to own the music. If it is standard work-for-hire he would own the music (and be the publisher), he might want that to remain exclusive and not worry about hearing the music somewhere else. I would still stick to $100/minute in that case and work on how many minutes he really needs. If he doesn't care you could license the music to him, retain ownership, and then at some point in the future sell it elsewhere if the opportunity arises. With that in mind you could cut him a break (I still wouldn't) because he'd be essentially paying you to build up your own library. At first I dismissed this idea because I don't consider a huge chunk of new-age music to be commercially viable but then when you mentioned he specifically doesn't want the new-age sound...



Right, that's what kind of has me excited.

He did say that he wants to own the music, so I don't think re-use down the line would be an option. Should that affect the charge?

Also, do I really need to get a lawyer like healey mentioned? Or is there a DIY resource that could help in drawing up a contract?

Also, is there a walkthrough somewhere that covers the ABCs of how to conduct transactions as a composer in general (selling a song, licensing, etc.)? Because i'm pretty sure the biggest profit I've ever gotten from my music was handed to me in 20s by a club owner.


----------



## Daryl (Oct 26, 2016)

When I hear a prospective client say that they want to own the music, I always hear alarm bells. It also depends on what PRO you are a member of, as to whether or not this is possible.

I would (tactfully) find out why he wants to own the music, and then report back.


----------



## mac (Oct 26, 2016)

@tarantulis Are you in the UK?


----------



## tarantulis (Oct 26, 2016)

Daryl said:


> When I hear a prospective client say that they want to own the music, I always hear alarm bells. It also depends on what PRO you are a member of, as to whether or not this is possible.
> 
> I would (tactfully) find out why he wants to own the music, and then report back.



I'm not sure he was speaking in legal terms, he just said "I want it to be my music". I responded that it would be his to use, and that he could have it in his online videos and workshops with no issues. His response was "Yes, very good." I'll confirm.

I'm not a member of a PRO (assuming you mean ASCAP, BMI?). Since the music will be used on a per-client basis I don't think royalties will apply here.

And no Mac, I'm in the US


----------



## Daryl (Oct 26, 2016)

OK, so the things he needs:

A one off payment that gives him a licence to use the music in his sessions and workshops.
There is absolutely no reason you can;'t keep all the Publishing. He is not a Publisher, so is not entitled to it.
You can use the music for whatever other purposes you want, unless you contract forbids this. If he wants exclusive use, that's possible, but would normally be charged at a much higher rate.
You should join a PRO (a Performing Rights Organisation) such as ASCAP or BMI. If he uses your music for a TV ad, for example, you would be entitled to Broadcast Royalties. Same for using it on YouTube.


----------



## chillbot (Oct 26, 2016)

You should definitely join a PRO (performing rights organization either BMI or ASCAP or sometimes SESAC)... you never know, maybe he has an ad on TV or radio using your music. You can also negotiate a percentage of video sales though this is less likely if it's work-for-hire.

Explain to him work-for-hire. It means he owns the music and can do whatever he wants with it whenever he wants and you give up ownership. But generally it costs more. If it's not work-for-hire, you license the music to him and the wording will state that he can do whatever he wants with it solely in connection with his videos and workshops.

Contract questions come up all the time on here. I don't remember ever seen a great resource for free.

This place is a bit expensive:

http://www.musiccontracts.com/film-television/

Joining the SCL might be even more expensive but might wind up being a good resource to you, and these top two look more specifically like what you are looking for:

http://www.thescl.com/contract_templates

EDIT: Oops posting the same info as Daryl at the same time.

EDIT AGAIN: To add, if you are retaining ownership of the music you will need to join a PRO as both a writer and a publisher. Joining as a writer is generally free but a publisher costs a few bucks, I forget but I think maybe ~$100 or so.


----------



## tarantulis (Oct 26, 2016)

Daryl said:


> OK, so the things he needs:
> 
> A one off payment that gives him a licence to use the music in his sessions and workshops.
> There is absolutely no reason you can;'t keep all the Publishing. He is not a Publisher, so is not entitled to it.
> ...



I'm almost certain he wants one of the pieces to be used in an online introduction video so that's good to know.

How does one draw up the contract? Is he expected to pay up front or after I've begun a piece he's definitely on board with? I figure it might take more than one attempt to find the right sound.


----------



## wst3 (Oct 26, 2016)

just to reinforce a couple things...

You want to maintain the publishing if you can.

You should join a PRO before delivering the music.

It has been eons, but when I ran into this sort of project my contract stated that the music was licensed for the client's use for specific applications, or sometimes I had to say any application, for a specific period of time. After that he could renew the license for a very reasonable fee, or I could use it however I wished. I also (hard lesson learned) added a clause that allowed me to use the tracks in my demo reel (oops!)

Since he has commented that he doesn't want to hear his music elsewhere I think he probably understands the value of custom music and licensing, so negotiations should not be horrible, but before you sign on the dotted line I would run it past an attorney. If you aren't comfortable writing the contract I'd suggest steering away from the online contracts and just hire an attorney that is familiar with these transactions. (I think we should all use an attorney every time, but I don't practice what I preach!)

If you can get terms that you are happy with (and $100/finished minute sounds quite reasonable) I'd suggest being flexible with payment terms. A down payment and then maybe a mid-term payment after approval, and then the final payment seems reasonable.

Good luck, and congrats!


----------



## tarantulis (Oct 31, 2016)

Thanks for the advice everyone. Meeting was going well until we started talking logistics...I went all the way down to 2500 and the guy was still gawking. Not sure what he was expecting to pay for 2 hours of music but any lower would've felt like prostitution. I guess it was a good learning experience...


----------



## chillbot (Oct 31, 2016)

That's too bad... I'm curious what number he had in mind? Did you ever find out?


----------



## tarantulis (Oct 31, 2016)

chillbot said:


> That's too bad... I'm curious what number he had in mind? Did you ever find out?



No, but I'd guess less than a thousand by the way the conversation was going. I kept asking what his budget was but couldnt get a direct answer. Keep in mind he now wants 120 min of music, and my 2500 offer was for 60 min looped to 120. He still wants to work with me so we planned to talk again. But it seriously threw me off because I was nervous to go any lower. He also needs it finished in two months.

I'm not really sure where to go from here. I need the work but I also need decent compensation for my efforts.


----------



## Mike Fox (Nov 1, 2016)

I think If you're going to feel ripped off while you're composing the music, it's not worth it.


----------



## Daryl (Nov 1, 2016)

tarantulis said:


> No, but I'd guess less than a thousand by the way the conversation was going. I kept asking what his budget was but couldnt get a direct answer. Keep in mind he now wants 120 min of music, and my 2500 offer was for 60 min looped to 120. He still wants to work with me so we planned to talk again. But it seriously threw me off because I was nervous to go any lower. He also needs it finished in two months.
> 
> I'm not really sure where to go from here. I need the work but I also need decent compensation for my efforts.


The only way out is to sell him a licence, but keep all rights, so that you can do a library release. He obviously can't or won't afford exclusivity, so you can't let him have that.


----------



## Desire Inspires (Nov 1, 2016)

There are so many variables to take into account that it hard to give an informed opinion. If I were you, I would hire someone to either negotiate for me or hire someone to teach me the correct info.


----------



## mverta (Nov 1, 2016)




----------



## FriFlo (Nov 1, 2016)

First and foremost: make sure he doesn't use his hypnotic powers to make you work for free ... this looks like a trap to me!


----------



## tarantulis (Nov 2, 2016)

We came to an agreement. Thanks everyone for the much-needed input!


----------

