# Forget ARM - everyone has missed the big Apple story this week..!



## wayne_rowley (Jun 23, 2020)

Yes - the title is click-bait - please forgive me!  

What I am referring to is the news today that Apple are now selling a 2m braided Thunderbolt 3 cable... for $129!! For a cable!!

I know they are a luxury brand, and I know they produce good kit (though in recent years, more flawed kit than I would like to have seen). But really! It’s the same with hardware upgrades on their products. Premium prices for RAM, SSD or graphics updates compared to their OEM modular equivalents. And we pay the prices because the base models don’t meet our needs and I we like MacOS and Logic etc.

I see the move to ARM as the final stage in something Apple having been doing for a few years now - turning the personal computer, historically a modular upgradable, open device - into a closed commodity electronics device, like a TV, a phone, tablet or toaster. You buy it. You can‘t upgrade it or service it.  It is what it is.

If I was a casual user I wouldn’t care - as I don’t really care about the same with my phone or iPad. But as a computer music user my needs are more niche. My MacBook Pro 2011 lasted me 9 years - but only because I could upgrade the SSD and memory myself, otherwise it would have ceased to meet my needs after about 4 years. But now I have to pay top-prices, up front, making the purchase far more expensive because Apple have to do the upgrade/manufacturing. And as for the price of upgradable desktop computers - the Mac Pro - forget it. It’s the price of a small car (or large car at the higher scale).

I’m not knocking the product - it’s great, and if I had the business use case I would buy it - but I’m a home user.

So what keeps me on Mac? I like the OS. I like Logic. Moving would be a pain. And although music on PC would be cheaper, there is the veritable minefield of compatibility with motherboards, graphics cards etc. Yes, it’s got better, but with my Mac it‘s mostly plug in, use and forget. Mostly.

Except the more recent issues. Catalina is more like Vista than I would like. Some new firmware updates risk frying the T2 chip (had a near miss with my Mini..). I’m not sure I completely like where they are going...

This ain’t a PC vs. Mac thread honest. It’s more about me venting/therapy!! 

I’m curious how others see things though.

Wayne


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## robcs (Jun 23, 2020)

And just as we finally get (almost) everything working with Catalina, they announce Big Sur!


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## JohnG (Jun 23, 2020)

wayne_rowley said:


> Apple are now selling a 2m braided Thunderbolt 3 cable... for $129!!



I'm waiting to buy the upgraded version.


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## Technostica (Jun 23, 2020)

It costs an ARM and a leg.


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## Rory (Jun 23, 2020)

wayne_rowley said:


> Yes - the title is click-bait - please forgive me!
> 
> What I am referring to is the news today that Apple are now selling a 2m braided Thunderbolt 3 cable... for $129!! For a cable!!



You aren't running an external graphics card, are you. Which means that you're not a gamer and you don't edit big, high resolution video files. Do you even have a reason to purchase a 2m, braided Thunderbolt 3 cable? If you do, I suggest that you check the prices of TB 3 cables, in particular ones that actually work properly. As it happens, I'm pretty interested in 2m braided, and the cables that Apple sells are highly reliable. Unlike my Asus TB 3 cable, they "just work".


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## wayne_rowley (Jun 23, 2020)

Rory said:


> You aren't running an external graphics card, are you. Which means that you're not a gamer and you don't edit RAW video footage. Do you even have a reason to purchase a 2m, braided Thunderbolt 3 cable? I suggest that you check the prices of TB 3 cables, in particular ones that actually work properly. As it happens, I'm pretty interested in 2m braided, and the cables that Apple sells are highly reliable. Unlike my Asus TB 3 cable, they "just work".



You’re right, I’m not a gamer and I don’t edit RAW video. I do use Thunderbolt 3 though (UAD Arrow). I use a Belkin cable and have yet to experience any issues. I know the cables have electronics built in, that they are not just passive wired things.

I’m also an advocate of the warning ‘buy cheap, buy twice’.

Why are they so unreliable? Why so expensive? Why an extra £200 to go from 8GB to 16GB on a MacBook when a DIMM only costs around £40? 

Thee is no such thing as perfection, but for the prices that Apple charge you kind of expect to get close. You also want longevity. Yet in the last few years we‘ve had butterfly keyboards that fail, crackling speakers, T2 issues with updates, T2 issues with USB audio, screen data cables that eventually snap with the movement of opening and closing the laptop...


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## Rory (Jun 23, 2020)

Now, like a lot of people, you're complaining about the price of TB 3 cable generally. That's a different issue. Your suggestion that Apple's price for 2m braided is out of line with the market is just wrong. And yes, their cables are more reliable. So what was the point of the rant?


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 23, 2020)

Yeah, but that is one great looking cable.

And to play devils advocate: You'd use that cable every day for half a decade. 
Also: The average VIC user spends $300 on a string library and uses it precisely twice.

Perspective, always. 😂


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## jcrosby (Jun 23, 2020)

Rory said:


> Now, like a lot of people, you're complaining about the price of TB 3 cable generally. That's a different issue. Your suggestion that Apple's price for 2m braided is out of line with the market is just wrong. And yes, their cables are more reliable. So what was the point of the rant?


Class compliant TB3 cables cost 1/3 of that. Apple doesn't manufacture its own cables, and the same factories Apple uses are used by other computer/electronics brands. What do you think "Designed in California assembled in China, (insert additional countries here)" means? Foxconn alone manufactures something like 40% of electronics worldwide.

For the cost of that cable you could add 32 GB of memory to a Mac Mini if you bought memory from a 3rd party. No different than buying a 3rd party class compliant cable for $30-$40.  









Supplier Responsibility


The way your Apple products are made is a reflection of our values. Values that include the people in our supply chain and the planet.



www.apple.com




(Apple's Supply Chain Page)









Why Apple's products are 'Designed in California' but 'Assembled in China' | Engadget


Look at the back of your iPhone, or your iPad, or on the bottom of your Mac.




www.engadget.com













Apple Lists Its Suppliers for 1st Time (Published 2012)


The move accompanied a report detailing troubling practices inside many of the facilities.




www.nytimes.com


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## CT (Jun 23, 2020)

Alex Fraser said:


> Also: The average VIC user spends $300 on a string library and uses it precisely twice.



Come on, that's ridiculous. You know most of this stuff isn't even getting used once.


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## wayne_rowley (Jun 23, 2020)

Rory said:


> Now, like a lot of people, you're complaining about the price of TB 3 cable generally. That's a different issue. Your suggestion that Apple's price for 2m braided is out of line with the market is just wrong. And yes, their cables are more reliable. So what was the point of the rant?



Venting/therapy as I said in my initial post. 😀

But staying with the TB3 example, a 2m Belkin TB3 cable is significantly cheaper than Apple’s (buy about a third). Does the quality of the Apple compared to the Belkin justify that price difference? You may say yes, and I’m not really experienced enough with TB3 to argue.

But turning the same question to the Mac, it is clear that in recent years the quality of Apple kit design may not justify the price difference, or at least the design problems they have had makes me question whether it does. 

As I said, for the premium price you really want something long lasting and high quality. For longevity now you need to spec up a machine which adds to the premium because you can‘t upgrade later on. And the design flaws and software issues in recent years suggests that the quality the underlines that premium price is slipping.


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## wayne_rowley (Jun 23, 2020)

Mike T said:


> Come on, that's ridiculous. You know most of this stuff isn't even getting used once.



Shush!

😂


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## GtrString (Jun 23, 2020)

+1 Im pretty much same place as the OP.

Apple is the least worse of the twain Mac/Windows. I changed from Windows systems about 10 years ago, and have been quite happy. No paternalizing corporate gibberish and boxes popping up everywhere asking me for trouble. Stable and user friendly. I would like more upgrade flexibility, and less frequent updates, but overall good. Im ok with paying more for less annoyances, ease of use and peace of mind.

I just hope Apple don't put it all at stake..

.. and who doesn't want cheaper cables!


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## wayne_rowley (Jun 24, 2020)

robcs said:


> And just as we finally get (almost) everything working with Catalina, they announce Big Sur!



Well, unless reports from users are extremely favourable, I can see myself staying on Catalina until 11.1 is out.


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## babylonwaves (Jun 24, 2020)

wayne_rowley said:


> What I am referring to is the news today that Apple are now selling a 2m braided Thunderbolt 3 cable... for $129!! For a cable!!



Did you see the one by Beats for $499? Certified by Dr.Dre, all golden connectors and the cable is designed by Swarovski. Kanye West just twittered that he bought 6. His new studio is all 5.1


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## jcrosby (Jun 24, 2020)

All this blathering about a $140 cable makes it kind of hard not to post this classic. 🤣


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## Ivan M. (Jun 24, 2020)

jcrosby said:


>




and that's a $1000 without tax! 😂


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## wayne_rowley (Jun 24, 2020)

The cable was really a segway.  

I think my main points/questions are:


Are we happy with Apple Macs going to modular computers that can be user upgraded to fixed ‘comodity’ tech such as phone, tablets and toasters?
Are we happy to pay the premium prices that Apple ask for these toasters computers?
Are we confident that Apple quality justifies the price for the computers and the upgrades?
Is the Apple experience, basically all about the software?
Or, do we stay with Apple because, well, we like MacOS and Logic, it’s a hassle to move, and we’re not convinced the Wintel alternative is any rosier?

Should have just posted this and forgotten about the cable. That’ll learn me... 

Wayne


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 24, 2020)

wayne_rowley said:


> The cable was really a segway.
> 
> I think my main points/questions are:
> 
> ...


Yes to all, and on point four, the hardware is quite nice too.

Thing is, most people are quite happy with Macs the way they are. That’s why they sell millions of the things.

The old school idea that computers (and Macs) should always be customisable towers that can be hot-rodded and tweaked is very much a minority interest, yet massively over represented on internet forums.

Not that such machines aren’t cool, it’s because typical computer buyers don’t think along those lines. Remember, most folk are happy to dump 1K on a non-expandable iPhone.

The Mac Pro, whist being very tasty (and expensive!) represents a fraction of total Mac sales.


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## charlieclouser (Jun 24, 2020)

wayne_rowley said:


> Are we happy with Apple Macs going to modular computers that can be user upgraded to fixed ‘comodity’ tech such as phone, tablets and toasters?




Yes. In 35 years using Macs, I have never had any issue expanding the system in the way I need. Whether it was SCSI external drives, 64 ports of hardware MIDI across eight Unitor interfaces hanging from just one of the two mini-DIN modem and printer ports, NuBus cards in a 13-slot expansion chassis, all the way to today's Thunderbolt devices where I've got 32tb of SSD plus four 3.5" bays on one port, 64x MADI + 24x AES + 48x ADAT + 12x analog + 2x headphone + 2x S/PDIF on a second port, UAD boxes on a third port, a 4k display on a fourth port, a 2560x1440 display on a fifth port, and an unused sixth port.... I've never run out of expansion, and I've been able to deploy those expansions typically years before they were commonplace on other platforms. Well, I did run out of expansion back on the 12-core cheese grater, where I filled up every PCIe slot and every drive bay, leaving only the FireWire ports for further expansion. For me, the cylinder Mac Pro is the most expandable one yet, and I've got far more devices hooked to it than I ever could have had in the past. So the assumption that non-PCI Macs are less expandable than some Win box with a six-slot Asus mobo is faulty.



wayne_rowley said:


> Are we happy to pay the premium prices that Apple ask for these toasters computers?




Absolutely. I've owned plenty of crap-tastic Windows boxes, from beige towers to supposedly bad-ass rack mount machines, and every single one has suffered some sort of hardware failure before I was really ready to throw it in the e-waste bin. In fact, the only non-Apple computer that was still functional when I took it out of service was my original IBM PC Portable (1985) with 9" amber CRT and dual 5.25" floppies. That thing was a tank, but only had 640k of RAM, so I eventually outgrew it.... in 1988. Sexy though: 






But across dozens of Apple machines I have suffered exactly ONE hardware failure: the ill-fated liquid cooling system on one of my four G5 machines sprang a leak. I walked it into the Apple store four miles from my house (without making an appointment) and it was fixed while I ate lunch at the food court, at no cost under AppleCare (actually it was ProCare back then I think), and 90 minutes later I walked out with a G5 with a new motherboard and CPUs. For free. That same 15-year-old machine is still working in my neighbor's kid's bedroom, and he's using it to mine BitCoin I think. Since then, no hardware failures of any kind on any Apple product - and I have a lot of 'em. I'm typing this on a 2012 MacBook Pro that I've beat on all day, every day, for the last eight years, and I'm still using the original power adaptor too. I haven't restarted it in months. Constant uptime.

All of the G4 Mac Minis on my shelf still work, so I can boot into OS9 and run TurboSynth or Galaxy Plus Editors if I want to. (narrator: "He doesn't"). A buddy of mine uses one of my old G4 Minis as a terminal for his Synclavier, still working decades later.

The cost of the Apple hardware is a pittance compared to the rest of my audio hardware - so many synths, so many racks of outboard gear, so many consoles (with $20k custom wiring jobs) have come and gone - and compared to the money they enable me to earn the cost of Apple hardware is truly insignificant.



wayne_rowley said:


> Are we confident that Apple quality justifies the price for the computers and the upgrades?




Without question. A buddy just got a 16-core 2019 Mac Pro rack mount and the build quality is so far beyond any other machine I've ever seen, except maybe my old Apple X-Serve and X-Raid boxes - it's just utterly beyond anything else available. He migrated from his Mac Pro cylinder in about six hours, going from a box on the FedEx truck to printing mixes before putting the kids to bed. His album tracks that had tons of flex time, Omnisphere+Alchemy+Diva (running in divine mode), which was choking his 8-core cylinder at 1024 buffer, now runs at 32 buffer on the 16-core with less than 40% CPU - half of the threads are totally unused. That rack mount Mac Pro is my next purchase, once I decide between 16 and 28 cores. 



wayne_rowley said:


> Is the Apple experience, basically all about the software?




Not at all. If it were, probably more people would be using hackintosh rigs. For me it's mostly about having zero hassle with hardware. I needed a spare Mac Pro cylinder for a tracking rig a while back, and I bought a used one off Craigslist because I wanted it same-day - before lunch in fact. I brought it home, wiped the drive, installed my preferred MacOS version, installed Logic and ProTools, and was recording a couple of hours later. Zero time spent on PC Part Picker, zero packages from NewEgg, zero hassle.



wayne_rowley said:


> Or, do we stay with Apple because, well, we like MacOS and Logic, it’s a hassle to move, and we’re not convinced the Wintel alternative is any rosier?





Yes, I do like MacOS and Logic, but I've made music on Apple II (Alpha Syntauri), Commodore-64 (Sequential Model 64 and, later, Dr. T's KCS), IBM PC (Roger Powell's Texture and Octave-Plateau Sequencer Plus under DOS 3.1), Yamaha CX-5m, Atari ST (C-Lab Creator/Notator, Steinberg Pro-24, and Hybrid Arts SMPTE Track), and every version of MacOS since the very first (Performer 1.22, Southworth Total Music and One-Step, Opcode Vision and StudioVision, and finally Logic). I've owned Digidesign products since Peter Gotcher and Evan Brooks were selling drum sounds on ROM chips, bought the original Sound Tools package with AD-In and DAT-IO, and made platinum records on ProTools since it was called Pro Edit and Pro Deck. I made records on the Fairlight and Arp 2500 before MIDI was even invented. 

If it's a computer and it can be used for music, I've used it for music.

In short, I've been down every dusty trail and dead-end road since long before the dawn of the DAW.

And I did maintain multiple platforms side-by-side for many years, all the way up through rack mount WinXP boxes running GigaSampler, blah blah blah. When I could finally toss those boat anchors into the e-waste bin I breathed a sigh of relief. Unlike a five-year-old Mac, they had a resale value of exactly zero dollars. So I'm no stranger to hassle, and if there were an alternative that I thought better suited my needs I'd spare no expense. But for me there just isn't anything better than the Apple platform, in whatever form it takes, this year or next. Each new iteration of their software and hardware has improved my efficiency, enhanced my creativity, and enabled me to produce better music, faster.

It almost seems like you're fishing for someone to validate an opinion that Apple products are non-professional, consumer-level "toasters", maybe to help nudge you towards walking away from the platform? But you won't get that validation from me! I shake my head and grin when I see threads where someone is asking which combination of Asus motherboard and Ryzen CPU will support Thunderbolt so they can use an Apollo interface, just struggling to figure out what parts to buy so they can even get a system that will turn on and record audio! That's the most basic function of a music computer, it should be as easy as clicking two buttons: "add to cart" and "pay now". 

System tweaks? BIOS settings? Overclocking? Yeah...no. Have you ever read through the "today we build our studio PC" thread on Gearslutz? It's as bad as the vintage muscle car forums I lurk on. Some folks like to build Lego, some like to tinker with their computers, and some like to tinker with cars. But I'm no shade-tree mechanic. I pay people to build my cars, just like I pay Apple to build my computers.

For my weekend fun cars I don't mind if one needs to go back to the shop yet again to have a less radical cam swapped in because it's not making enough manifold vacuum to get solid brake-pedal feel, but for my daily driver I want to drive it off the lot and know I can count on it day in and day out, because I'm going to turn left out of the dealer's lot, get on the freeway, drop the hammer, and set the cruise control to 90mph. That's what I need from my music computers. Steering with one finger while the cruise control is at 90. And that's what I get from Apple.

If the Apple platform isn't for everyone, or is getting too expensive for some, that's fine. Horses for courses. But for me it's the only way.


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## JohnG (Jun 24, 2020)

same


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## Loïc D (Jun 24, 2020)

charlieclouser said:


> Yes. In 35 years using Macs, I have never had any issue expanding the system in the way I need. Whether it was SCSI external drives, 64 ports of hardware MIDI across eight Unitor interfaces hanging from just one of the two mini-DIN modem and printer ports, NuBus cards in a 13-slot expansion chassis, all the way to today's Thunderbolt devices where I've got 32tb of SSD plus four 3.5" bays on one port, 64x MADI + 24x AES + 48x ADAT + 12x analog + 2x headphone + 2x S/PDIF on a second port, UAD boxes on a third port, a 4k display on a fourth port, a 2560x1440 display on a fifth port, and an unused sixth port.... I've never run out of expansion, and I've been able to deploy those expansions typically years before they were commonplace on other platforms. Well, I did run out of expansion back on the 12-core cheese grater, where I filled up every PCIe slot and every drive bay, leaving only the FireWire ports for further expansion. For me, the cylinder Mac Pro is the most expandable one yet, and I've got far more devices hooked to it than I ever could have had in the past. So the assumption that non-PCI Macs are less expandable than some Win box with a six-slot Asus mobo is faulty.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Charlie, honestly...

When are you writing a book about all those stories ?

I’d prepay for it


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## dgburns (Jun 24, 2020)

Not convinced. The Mac Pro 2019 16 core is in my inbasket. It was the Mac I hoped it would be. I still need re-assurance OS11 will not be painful to migrate to. Maybe it won’t be ?? dunno.

No issues from me on whether this new Mac would be a big step forward for my setup.

I will have another call with the Mac Business rep. He claims to have new exciting things to tell me.

Apple change their os too often for my liking. Others may disagree, but it puts strain on the peripheral development community, IMHO. I’m tired of the forced updates.

I have no fear of PC/win10. I see a few heavy hitters working with pc, but it would slow me down ALOT.

I still need to be convinced about staying Mac. I need to make a decision soon.


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## David Kudell (Jun 24, 2020)

Totally agree with Charlie. My Macs are where all my business income is created as a video production company. I buy one every 5 years and, yeah it’s expensive, but it’s a tool and if it were to go down for a day or even hours I lose income. Compared to 5 years of business income, the cost of the Mac is a tiny fraction of that.

As far as upgrading, I think this is overblown. I have 4 TB3 ports on my iMac Pro, a 12GB GPU, and 128GB of RAM. It’s a balanced system so I just buy what I need at the start and then replace the whole thing every 5-7 years. Actually, also my trash can Mac Pro is still doing great as a 2nd editing station Too.


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 24, 2020)

dgburns said:


> Not convinced. The Mac Pro 2019 16 core is in my inbasket. It was the Mac I hoped it would be. I still need re-assurance OS11 will not be painful to migrate to. Maybe it won’t be ?? dunno.
> 
> No issues from me on whether this new Mac would be a big step forward for my setup.
> 
> ...



I am so glad I am not in your shoes right now, I do not have any idea what I would do. Are you sure you need to get a new computer right now this year? 2 years more may change the entire landscape.. I am not afraid to switch back to windows either, but make no mistake that WOULD be a very big change on so many fronts. Not just the music apps you use, but many little details, how you network, how you back it up, how you work on business related apps, how you email, etc.. Its a big change. Me personally, if I switch back to PC windows, it will be a 5-10 year commitment on windows at that point. That happened to me once before and the only reason I even came back to mac at all was because first I was able to build a hackintosh, then later get a hot rodded cheesegrater for a reasonable amount of money...so here I am. But I don't k now if that window of opportunity would happen again in the future should I switch back to windows, that might be it....sadly...

In my case I feel I can easily keep working and doing my thing with my cheesegrater for at least 3 more years, maybe 5...and don't need to even ask this question just yet. knock on wood. But that buys me some time to wait and see what Apple will deliver with ARM and in my case I can confidently say that IF I buy another mac in a few years....it will be an ARM one.... That is IF Apple provides an ARM mac that meets my expectations and after every software and hardware thing I need to use is fully operational on ARM and won't cost me the same as a down payment on a condo to replace my peripherals. Its just way too soon to know where Apple is heading with all this stuff...

I feel much more confident that Windows and PC's will continue using my tried and true PCI stuff rolling forward in a more predictable way. So at some point, I will have to either choose a shiny new ARM mac (which I will definitely do if they provide what I want), or make the switch back to windows, but I expect that to be a long term decision if I do, and not a decision that is even possible to make right now.

Regarding the 2019 MP, its a fabulous machine and if you have a decent budget where you could justify the cost for 2 years of use out of it, which some of the members of this forum seem to be able to do, then I don't think you will be disappointed. I personally think that in the 3-5 year time frame from now is when Intel users will be getting left behind on software updates. Now myself, I will keep running Mojave for years to come and at some point I won't be able to update LogicPro anymore but that's ok too...I'll still keep using it and won't miss a beat...so that's just me. If you're the kind of person that always wants to have the latest version of OSX and LogicPro..then of course my strategy won't work for you for very much longer....you have no choice but buy a newer mac and see what happens... 

But its a bit of a gamble, with a a good chance that in the 3-5 year timeframe you will run into headaches with some of your third party apps and software and keeping up to date. Its less of a gamble to get a trashcan or cheesgrater simply because they cost less. Any intel mac is going to start showing its age in 3 years from now, mark my words....

Much less of a gamble to go windows...its very predictable what will be happening there...though...if you love working on MacOS, as I do, then its step down and that part sucks.


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## David Kudell (Jun 24, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> Regarding the 2019 MP, its a fabulous machine and if you have a decent budget where you could justify the cost for 2 years of use out of it, which some of the members of this forum seem to be able to do, then I don't think you will be disappointed. I personally think that in the 3-5 year time frame from now is when Intel users will be getting left behind on software updates.


I respectfully disagree with this assessment - I don’t believe Apple are going to give people who are just now spending up to $50,000 on their flagship product only 2 years of OS updates. Rather the opposite, it’s going to take 3 Years just for all of the legacy software just to get updated for ARM.


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 24, 2020)

has nothing to do with Apple. Third party developers will have to make the leap to ARM and they will have to leave Intel behind. When they do...intel users will feel the pain. Respectively we don't have to agree.


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## David Kudell (Jun 24, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> has nothing to do with Apple. Third party developers will have to make the leap to ARM and they will have to leave Intel behind. When they do...intel users will feel the pain. Respectively we don't have to agree.


I guess we will see. If I was a 3rd party developer I wouldn’t so quickly abandon my entire customer base of tens of millions of Mac computers for a new variant that’s not even out yet. I think it’s gonna be more than 5 years before there’s more ARM Macs than Intel ones.
(Especially among the pro users who buy Mac Pros and iMac Pro’s)


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## merlinhimself (Jun 24, 2020)

@charlieclouser I totally agree on most if not all of that, went from using macs as a writing assistant for a composer to being on my own and built my own PCs. I love the ones I have, but man can they stress me out. I was writing the first episode of my first credited network show last year, and my almost brand new cpu died. It took me awhile to troubleshoot it all down to that, but I was sweating bullets the whole time thinking "if this doesnt work, Im screwed on this project and will be over with". Its been ok and no hiccups since then but Id be lying if I said it wasnt always on the back of my mind.

I would love to move back to Mac, and plan on doing it eventually, but for many of us who are up and coming, starting out, hobbyists, or not established yet, the new price tags on Apples latest line is incredibly high and the early years of this career arent the most lucrative. I just spec'd out the apple alternative to what I have now and its 9k, almost 3x the amount I had to invest on my current DAW machine. Apple does have its security in things working and working for awhile though. Its constantly a battle for me.


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 24, 2020)

David Kudell said:


> I guess we will see. If I was a 3rd party developer I wouldn’t so quickly abandon my entire customer base of tens of millions of Mac computers for a new variant that’s not even out yet. I think it’s gonna be more than 5 years before there’s more ARM Macs than Intel ones.
> (Especially among the pro users who buy Mac Pros and iMac Pro’s)



well comes down to practical dev costs. that is what happened last time. I see no reason the same thing won't happen again this time. Its very very difficult and costs a lot, to for example, build a cross platform product that runs on both Windows and OSX. Lots of linux users have said, hey why can't steinberg make Cubase run on Linux? I'm sure if it was even remotely possible or economically feasbible, steinberg would say "sure guys, here's a linux version just for you!". But they don't, not because they don't like linux or are stubborn about it, its because the costs associated with doing that are simply far too high. It would very very difficult to do. Even the windows/osx cross platform thing is not perfect, how many people have complained, for example, that cubase runs so much better on windows compared to mac? This is getting better every day, but the truth is that there are a lot of development hurdles to cross platform development and its very costly.

Add to that, that most people making software targeted for both windows and OSX, are specifically NOT using Apple's native development API's, they might be compiling with Xcode but that's about it. They have to go to a bit of the lowest common denominator, rather then using all of Apple's latest wiz bang SDK features. Only the pure hearted Apple-only developers ever really considering using all that fancy Apple dev stuff, which is fine, but they box themselves into being Apple-only that way when they do. 

Cross platform devs instead have to use third party frameworks, or home-brewed frameworks in order to produce software the builds and runs on both platforms and this is no easy task....it takes a lot of time to work through the challenges and costs a lot of money.

Now those developers have a new challenge in front of them which will be building for 3 platforms...Windows, OSX and OSX/ARM. So first of all, that will take quite some time, which is why for the next few years, Intel will be the place to remain frankly. But in 2-3 years, at some point the market share will switch over to OSX/ARM.,..and they will have much less incentive to keep bother to support OSX/Intel with all the costs involved.

Apple software products will not have that problem because they are all using Apple's wiz bang SDK dev solutions in an apple-only way...and Apple is doing everything it can to make the transition from OSX/Intel to OSX/ARM as painless as possible...and also since they have the universal2 binary format, those developers will be able to keep shipping intel compatible binaries for quite a while..no problem. But its the ones that are outside of the Apple-only develoshphere that will find it increasingly cumbersome and expensive to keep supporting OSX Intel. At some point they will be forced to tell their OSX/Intel users....as has happened many times in the past....sorry guys...the last version work on Intel is version x.x.x if you want the latest version you gotta get a new mac. That is going to happen...and in my opinion...which is only that...an opinion...in the 3 year horizon is when Intel mac owners will start to feel the pinch of that. Apple will be able to say you can run the latest OSX on your intel...but not all of your stuff is going to keep up.

That is what happened before and it will happen again, I see no reason whatsoever that it would not. We can always hope for better this time though..why not...


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## GNP (Jun 24, 2020)

Happy camper with a one-computer Windows 10 with ASUS mobo here. Cheaper than Macs with no problems!


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## wayne_rowley (Jun 24, 2020)

charlieclouser said:


> Yes. In 35 years using Macs, I have never had any issue expanding the system in the way I need. Whether it was SCSI external drives, 64 ports of hardware MIDI across eight Unitor interfaces hanging from just one of the two mini-DIN modem and printer ports, NuBus cards in a 13-slot expansion chassis, all the way to today's Thunderbolt devices where I've got 32tb of SSD plus four 3.5" bays on one port, 64x MADI + 24x AES + 48x ADAT + 12x analog + 2x headphone + 2x S/PDIF on a second port, UAD boxes on a third port, a 4k display on a fourth port, a 2560x1440 display on a fifth port, and an unused sixth port.... I've never run out of expansion, and I've been able to deploy those expansions typically years before they were commonplace on other platforms. Well, I did run out of expansion back on the 12-core cheese grater, where I filled up every PCIe slot and every drive bay, leaving only the FireWire ports for further expansion. For me, the cylinder Mac Pro is the most expandable one yet, and I've got far more devices hooked to it than I ever could have had in the past. So the assumption that non-PCI Macs are less expandable than some Win box with a six-slot Asus mobo is faulty.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Great insight, thank you.


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## SupremeFist (Jun 24, 2020)

My main beef is that Apple is calling the Big Sur redesign "more spacious", when actually it seems to mean that they have made GUI elements bigger so it is literally _less spacious _in terms of space that I can actually use. Why does Apple keep stealing my screen real estate?? 🧐


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## wayne_rowley (Jun 24, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> My main beef is that Apple is calling the Big Sur redesign "more spacious", when actually it seems to mean that they have made GUI elements bigger so it is literally _less spacious _in terms of space that I can actually use. Why does Apple keep stealing my screen real estate?? 🧐



I wonder how it will look on a non-retina screen.


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## SupremeFist (Jun 24, 2020)

wayne_rowley said:


> I wonder how it will look on a non-retina screen.


I mean, I run 4k native so it's not that big a deal, but the change from logic 9 to X, when they killed those beautiful slim window headers, really pained me at the time.


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 24, 2020)

Big Sur looks to have some nice usability improvements which will be welcomed. They often tend to try to use a new font and other cosmetic differences, which some artsy designer at Apple decided to give it a new "look", which I'm quite sure they put a lot of thought into trying to make it also ergonomically better in some way, but probably will be worse in some ways to some people also...that's just how it goes. Arguably, the fonts didn't really need to change, but perception of something new and shiny sells more stuff...

For the vast majority of people, if it is somehow easier on the eyes, that will be perceived as improvement, most people aren't power users needing efficiency in the GUI, they want more of a relaxing and pleasurable experience while they surf around on the internet and use facebook.


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## dgburns (Jun 24, 2020)

@Dewdman42 I had a phone call with the Business rep again, and he will get me back door info from the engineers about road map, but I may not be able to express it publicly.

It appears there is the possibility the Intel chips will play a part of the lineup for some time to come. I want some kind of confirmation of this before I move ahead.

At the end of the day, I think the valid question is really - What is the value proposition to using a Mac for audio composition? I guess I need to answer that for myself, just like everyone else.

Let's see what Apple head office has to say. ( I agree with Charlie, the build quality does inspire )


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 24, 2020)

I brought a new MbP a couple of months back. I’m not annoyed at all. There’s at least 5 years of front line updates and use to be had out of the machine yet.

For those on the fence about buying a Mac today, I really wouldn’t worry about it. By the time you come to replace it, Arm will be nicely established. Let others do the groundwork for you. 😉👍


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## jcrosby (Jun 24, 2020)

I've had quite the opposite experience. I've had 3 out of 5 MacBook Pros fail on me. Mind each one of these were different models spread out over different years, one pre-unibody, two unibody. One had logic board failure within a few years of purchase, the other two had GPU failure resulting in the infamous horizontal lines eventually rendering the machine fully unusable.

Plus you know, that butterfly keyboard thing they continued to sell for 3 years, the last model of which being released while already under a repair program. That's MacBook Pro number 4 for with some kind of hardware failure. I'll avoid the shady T2 firmware rant that resulted in system-wide jitter that eventually blew both speakers.

Trashcan Macs have been pretty famous for GPU failure as well.

And this is barely anything, there have been slews of product failures, some requiring judgements to force Apple to issue a repair program.

So while desktop users have more success, (as I have on my Mac Pro), Apple's had plenty of product failures along the way. The MacBook easily being the most problematic, but hardly the only model with a checkered history. But it's Apple. Who in many user's eyes can do no wrong, most of which are content to sweep Apple's history of product issues under the rug until they find themselves on the receiving end of hardware failure.


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## charlieclouser (Jun 24, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> I've had quite the opposite experience. I've had 3 out of 5 MacBook Pros fail on me. Mind each one of these were different models spread out over different years, one pre-unibody, two unibody. One had logic board failure within a few years of purchase, the other two had GPU failure resulting in the infamous horizontal lines eventually rendering the machine fully unusable.



Well it sounds like you've had quite a run of bad luck then. Guess I've been lucky for 35 years! 

Were any of those failures covered under warranty or AppleCare?


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## vitocorleone123 (Jun 24, 2020)

All the Windows and PC comments are funny. It’s like a different world. In that I’ve not experienced them. Latest PC: do homework to find parts that go together, buy parts, assemble, power on, more stable and trouble free than my mbp for work. Easy as can be.

Anyway, I totally agree with the OP. It’s clear Apple wants to make luxury appliances.


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## cmillar (Jun 25, 2020)

I've always used Macs, and the only machine I ever bought brand new was a '90's PowerBook (which was for all-MIDI work with Performer back then.

(...oh...I forgot about the disastrous Dual-G4 wind tunnel machine around 2002 which was so loud that it was impossible to think!..... put that one 'out of mind')

But ever since then I've only bought used Mac's (ie: G5's, PowerBooks, MacBook Pros', MacPro's). I loved the way that you could customize and upgrade them to suit your needs.

I'm using a 2009 MacPro that has never, ever had a problem

My 2011 MacBook Pro i7 Dual had the famous 'video' problem, but I got that fixed by some 3rd-party experts (they bypassed some chip or diode or who-knows-what!) and it's never had a problem since then. Bought one for my wife, fixed the same video problem for only $80, and it's fantastic.

So, all this means that of course I'm not running the 'latest-greatest' OSX.

My biggest concern, and wish, is for Apple to keep some support going (for the millions of users like myself who can't afford to buy 'new cars' every couple of years) and keep at least OSX Sierra or some 'older' OSX's readily available for people to re-install or install on used machines.

Thank god for companies like 'OWC' who can still help out Mac users with upgrades and other Mac parts and accessories.

Everytime I think of switching over to the PC world, I realize how hassle-free my Mac-based computing life has really been compared to friends using other systems.

I look forward to buying a used 'trash-can' someday and all the power and ports that it offers, but what I'm still using proves to me that I can use my money for other more urgent things right now and that my current Mac setup is still running strong. It's older than my car! (...a 2011 model car, same as my MacBook Pro)

I don't feel like I'm missing out on any 'features' or 'must-haves' at all. Work gets done, and my software works fine.

Here's hoping that Apple doesn't make itself totally 'inaccessible' to most of it's fans.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 25, 2020)

Kevin Kiner did have problems with two of the trash can Mac Pros, kept having to have Apple replace them, but every MAC I have owned has been hardware that was reliable.

When Big Sur is.1 I will have to get a newer machine as my late 2013 iMac did not make the cut, and because part of my living now is not composing only, or even mostly, but helping Logic users, some of them wealthy and/or famous, and writing articles and reviews, I have to stay more current than I would care about if I was only composing.


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## Raphioli (Jun 28, 2020)

wayne_rowley said:


> What I am referring to is the news today that Apple are now selling a 2m braided Thunderbolt 3 cable... for $129!! For a cable!!



They better have embedded LED lights!


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## wayne_rowley (Jun 28, 2020)

Raphioli said:


> They better have embedded LED lights!



What for $129?!! That’s extra!


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## seclusion3 (Jun 28, 2020)

The new iMac will have USB-D is all wireless, there will only be a power cord and all your devices connect wireless


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