# Dorico 4 - "Can Now Use As a DAW?" Discussion



## dylanmixer (Jan 12, 2022)

It looks like a duck. It quacks like a duck. It's a DAW.

Will anybody be considering moving over a bulk of their workload to Dorico? It obviously won't be a fully featured MIDI powerhouse like Cubase, Studio One, Logic etc. But for those who almost primarily compose orchestral music, a lot of the new features are incredibly attractive. Even from a purely sequencing perspective - notation aside.

I now may be in a place where if I'm composing something orchestral, even if I don't intend to reach live players, I may reach for Dorico instead of Cubase. Any one else having the same thoughts after watching the announcement?


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## Hadrondrift (Jan 12, 2022)

This could really be an advantage for composers who compose for a later real orchestra. For me, as a pure hobby user, more and more DAW-like features in Dorico are rather uninteresting.
I would have liked much more a significant improvement of the data exchange with Cubase, perhaps even without the need to export/import files.

I am not yet completely convinced by the update, however, I need to have seen some first on the screen and not just described in words. EDIT: Oh, just saw that there are many videos online now.


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## DaddyO (Jan 12, 2022)

After watching the list of videos outlining what is new in Dorico 4, I am blown away. The lack of any improvements in Expression Maps has been engulfed in a tsunami of new features and capabilities, as well as enhancements to existing features.

Now I have to wait for my wife to wake up naturally. It's 4:55 AM, and any financial transactions I make will send her an audible alert and disturb her well-deserved sleep.


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## ed buller (Jan 12, 2022)

It's really a very powerful tool for writing orchestral music. I am confident the expresion maps ( which TBH are already the best in the business ) will take a leap forward soon. 

But we now have a score based DAW with comprehensible midi editing and processing features all linked to whatever samples we choose

gamechanger indeed

best

ed


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## DaddyO (Jan 12, 2022)

The new features for working with MIDI and notation on the same screen will be a huge game-changer for me.


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## ed buller (Jan 12, 2022)

Dorico 4 review: Do more with your score - Scoring Notes


The massive Dorico 4 update brings a Key Editor in Write mode, a revamped Play mode, smart MIDI import, a library manager, and more.




www.scoringnotes.com





great review

best

e


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## Vik (Jan 12, 2022)

ed buller said:


> I am confident the expresion maps ( which TBH are already the best in the business ) will take a leap forward soon.


Out of sheer curiosity (I haven't used Dorico since version 1.0): In which way are the expression maps better than the competition? I'm a Logic user, and one of the really good things about Logic is that each and every note can have it's own articulation, even if they have the same MIDI channel, exist on the same region/track, and appear simultaneously. Not wanting a DAW war at all, I just wonder if Steinberg also offer this now!


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## ed buller (Jan 12, 2022)

Vik said:


> Out of sheer curiosity (I haven't used Dorico since version 1.0): In which way are the expression maps better than the competition? I'm a Logic user, and one of the really good things about Logic is that each and every note can have it's own articulation, even if they have the same MIDI channel, exist on the same region/track, and appear simultaneously. Not wanting a DAW war at all, I just wonder if Steinberg also offer this now!


not yet

e


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## ed buller (Jan 12, 2022)

Vik said:


> Out of sheer curiosity (I haven't used Dorico since version 1.0): In which way are the expression maps better than the competition? I'm a Logic user, and one of the really good things about Logic is that each and every note can have it's own articulation, even if they have the same MIDI channel, exist on the same region/track, and appear simultaneously. Not wanting a DAW war at all, I just wonder if Steinberg also offer this now!


sorry just to check. If you mean assigning a different sound to any note . Yes. In theory if you made 88 different symbols , you could have 88 different sounds ...that you can do. They way dorico works is at various points in the chain it will need a unique identifier . So Pizz will play pizz. You could of course have any name you want....Or make your own symbols. Then have whatever sound you want attached to it.

For Instance my first Violins alone have 56 sounds. That ranges from "Pizz " to "Divis Flautando". Some are on different midi channels too. So in VSL vienna ensemble I have 15 tracks loaded with a variety of VST instruments all ready and waiting for the expression maps. My short strings for instance have 14 articulations spread across for players.

I'm sorry i am not a Logic user. The only logic users I know are all the bands I work with cos they seem to get it with their laptops. I knew a couple of people at RCP loved it.

Is the "articulation mapping" the function in logic you are referring to ?

best

e


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## Drumdude2112 (Jan 12, 2022)

no scrub playback 😔.
(at least i didn’t see it listed anywhere)


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## gzapper (Jan 12, 2022)

dylanmixer said:


> It looks like a duck. It quacks like a duck. It's a DAW.
> 
> Will anybody be considering moving over a bulk of their workload to Dorico? It obviously won't be a fully featured MIDI powerhouse like Cubase, Studio One, Logic etc. But for those who almost primarily compose orchestral music, a lot of the new features are incredibly attractive. Even from a purely sequencing perspective - notation aside.
> 
> I now may be in a place where if I'm composing something orchestral, even if I don't intend to reach live players, I may reach for Dorico instead of Cubase. Any one else having the same thoughts after watching the announcement?


I've already done a couple of short film projects writing cues in Dorico 3.5 with BBC. That was way nicer, though everything does have more of a quantized feel. But the writing part is so much more enjoyable. This update looks great.


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## Vik (Jan 12, 2022)

ed buller said:


> not yet
> 
> e


Thanks.

I just watched most of the live stream, and there are many interesting changes there, especially related to compositional editing + general workflow improvements, including making the whole thing more DAW-like. Maybe I should consider upgrading from Dorico 1.


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## jjrussell (Jan 12, 2022)

I very much am hoping that they are sitting on some cool Dorico Cubase interaction for the Cubase 12 launch. 
Like, Dorico is now the score editor for cubase and you can edit projects in both without importing/exporting. 
Hey, a guy can dream.


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## joebaggan (Jan 12, 2022)

jjrussell said:


> I very much am hoping that they are sitting on some cool Dorico Cubase interaction for the Cubase 12 launch.
> Like, Dorico is now the score editor for cubase and you can edit projects in both without importing/exporting.
> Hey, a guy can dream.


So no Cubase integration in this release? It seems like instead they're trying to make Dorico into a DAW.


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## ed buller (Jan 12, 2022)

jjrussell said:


> I very much am hoping that they are sitting on some cool Dorico Cubase interaction for the Cubase 12 launch.
> Like, Dorico is now the score editor for cubase and you can edit projects in both without importing/exporting.
> Hey, a guy can dream.


I'm curious, what is it you can't do. To me writing in dorico. Getting all sounding pretty finished then printing off the instruments as separate tracks and opening that in Cubase seems so simple. Then Mix in Cubase...done

e


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jan 12, 2022)

joebaggan said:


> So no Cubase integration in this release? It seems like instead they're trying to make Dorico into a DAW.


Daniel said they are working on it.

Smart MIDI import has made it much easier to go from MIDI mockup to notation in Dorico. I imagine this will be a huge time saver for orchestrators.


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## soundofmaw (Jan 12, 2022)

This is exactly what I was hoping Dorico would become. I'm a classically-trained composer and feel most at home working with notation during the compositional process. Being able to notate first, then work in the key editor & Play mode to produce a realistic mock-up, and finally spit out beautiful scores for publishing - all without having to switch programs... this is a dream come true.

I'm really impressed with the UI as well. Some major improvements all around.

Dorico is my complete DAW now. Very excited about this!


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## DaddyO (Jan 12, 2022)

DaddyO said:


> any financial transactions I make will send her an audible alert and disturb her well-deserved sleep.



One of the best things I ever did was institute small, equal monthly distributions to our respective mad-money accounts. No squabbles over fairness, and no questions asked what we do with our mad money.


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## jamwerks (Jan 12, 2022)

I'd bet the new midi import fonctions (almost unbelievable what they've been able to do), just got about 10,000 people in California to throw away Sibelius and pick-up Dorico!


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## gzapper (Jan 12, 2022)

I know there was some beefing about the upgrade prices for those who bought in early, I was ok with that but am now a bit annoyed that Steinberg just made the upgrade more expensive for Canadians. The Canadian upgrade price is $150, which works out to $125 USD. That's mean.


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## youngpokie (Jan 12, 2022)

I am starting to suspect that Dorico development is moving in "chapters" (and hope @Daniel S. can confirm). Dorico 4 is the "Workflow" Chapter and the amount of stuff brought to the table is nothing short of incredible. Really incredible. 

The Jump Bar and Library Manager alone are absolute standouts in their own right for speed and efficiency. 

I pray and hope that Dorico 5 will be the "Playback" Chapter and if v.4 is any indication of how the Dorico team underpromises and overdelivers, it will be just as mind-blowing.

Kudos to the team, this is an amazing update. Don't let the messy license transition confuse that...!


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## Al Maurice (Jan 12, 2022)

Note input on Dorico 4 has just gone up a notch or two. It's so much easier using a keyboard, just like I would when using a DAW. This alone is simply a game changer, yet alone with the number of options to insert any amendments.


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## ed buller (Jan 12, 2022)

youngpokie said:


> I am starting to suspect that Dorico development is moving in "chapters" (and hope @Daniel S. can confirm). Dorico 4 is the "Workflow" Chapter and the amount of stuff brought to the table is nothing short of incredible. Really incredible.
> 
> The Jump Bar and Library Manager alone are absolute standouts in their own right for speed and efficiency.
> 
> ...


Completely agree

e


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## youngpokie (Jan 12, 2022)

Also, just to set the record straight:



dylanmixer said:


> It obviously won't be a fully featured MIDI powerhouse like Cubase, Studio One, Logic etc. But


Dorico is already more powerful than Cubase in some MIDI features, especially when it comes to bulk editing (which, for orchestral composing is critical). And with Version 4, you can be even faster by selecting any number of instruments on the fly for bulk editing. Plus the compositional tools of melodic transformation - none of this is available in Cubase.

What Dorico is still missing is sophisticated curve drawing like Cubase, the arranger track, track versions, scrubbing and so on. But I'm pretty sure it will come. 

EDIT: some new MIDI editing is already in Dorico 4. And not too shabby either!


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## ed buller (Jan 12, 2022)

youngpokie said:


> . Plus the compositional tools of melodic transformation - none of this is available in Cubase.
> 
> W


actually they were added last update. 

best

e


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## dcoscina (Jan 12, 2022)

soundofmaw said:


> This is exactly what I was hoping Dorico would become. I'm a classically-trained composer and feel most at home working with notation during the compositional process. Being able to notate first, then work in the key editor & Play mode to produce a realistic mock-up, and finally spit out beautiful scores for publishing - all without having to switch programs... this is a dream come true.
> 
> I'm really impressed with the UI as well. Some major improvements all around.
> 
> Dorico is my complete DAW now. Very excited about this!


Same


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## youngpokie (Jan 12, 2022)

ed buller said:


> actually they were added last update.


Oh wow. I got the update but never installed. Kind of amazed I managed with Dorico and without Cubase for this long!


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## Barrel Maker (Jan 12, 2022)

jamwerks said:


> I'd bet the new midi import fonctions (almost unbelievable what they've been able to do), just got about 10,000 people in California to throw away Sibelius and pick-up Dorico!


10,001. I think I'm going to jump ship from Sibelius. My dream is to be able to create realistic mockups using traditional notation––Steinberg seems closer to realizing that than Avid, also, don't get me started on Avid.


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## DJiLAND (Jan 12, 2022)

I'll still be on Nuendo since Dorico doesn't support multichannel surround yet.
I'll probably work on Nuendo and move to Dorico if I need to real recording. I'm hoping Dorico's Smart MIDI Import will do a good job of this.


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## JF (Jan 12, 2022)

How do you assign a VST to an instrument? I cannot figure this out for the life of me.


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## Jett Hitt (Jan 12, 2022)

I see that there is a BBCSO template for Dorico. Does anyone know of others? Is there by chance an Orchestral Tools Berlin template?


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## Zanshin (Jan 12, 2022)

JF said:


> How do you assign a VST to an instrument? I cannot figure this out for the life of me.


I'm new to Dorico and I really had a hard time with this (trying out SE tonight):

On the "Play" screen, have the track selected, go to the "VST Rack" and add your VST. After, click the "Inspector" button and below that "Routing", click the drop down and select the VST you added to the rack.


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## lucor (Jan 12, 2022)

ed buller said:


> actually they were added last update.
> 
> best
> 
> e


Where? I know Cubase always had a very rudimentary mirror and reverse function, but nothing nearly as sophisticated as the new Dorico transformations.


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## ed buller (Jan 13, 2022)

lucor said:


> Where? I know Cubase always had a very rudimentary mirror and reverse function, but nothing nearly as sophisticated as the new Dorico transformations.








you can do most things in Cubase. You have to make the presets In either this or Logical editor but it's all there.

best

e


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## Patrick Aylett (Jan 13, 2022)

Any suggestion on the best way to handle track delay? At the moment , in Cubase using Cinematic Studio Strings, I have the long notes on one track with a 333ms delay and the shorts on another track with a 60ms delay.

I guess in Dorico I would need to adjust each note individually in the key editor if they're all one one staff.


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## ed buller (Jan 13, 2022)

Patrick Aylett said:


> Any suggestion on the best way to handle track delay? At the moment , in Cubase using Cinematic Studio Strings, I have the long notes on one track with a 333ms delay and the shorts on another track with a 60ms delay.
> 
> I guess in Dorico I would need to adjust each note individually in the key editor if they're all one one staff.


This IS a required Feature. I would suggest DORICO having it in the expression maps "Playback Option Overrides'". Just have a button for either positive or negative amounts 

best

e


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## ennbr (Jan 13, 2022)

ed buller said:


> This IS a required Feature. I would suggest DORICO having it in the expression maps "Playback Option Overrides'". Just have a button for either positive or negative amounts


You make it sound so simple to implement just add a button and a value in a field. However it requires a lot of work in the playback engine to support a series of tracks each having different delays that all need to be lined up to play at the same time.


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## ed buller (Jan 13, 2022)

ennbr said:


> You make it sound so simple to implement just add a button and a value in a field. However it requires a lot of work in the playback engine to support a series of tracks each having different delays that all need to be lined up to play at the same time.


i'm not sure I made myself clear. In the Expression maps Dialogue there already IS a button to add a delay under the humanise function. Just allow a negative value




best

ed


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## mauriziodececco (Jan 13, 2022)

About Dorico and Cubase: are you sure that most of the Dorico users are Cubase users ?
I am a Logic and Dorico user, and clearly a better integration with Cubase at the expenses of better integration of generic third party DAWs (like MIDI file import) would be a negative point for me.
So, depending on how strong the correlation between Cubase users and Dorico users, the market priority may not be in Cubase integration.
Maurizio


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## JF (Jan 13, 2022)

Zanshin said:


> I'm new to Dorico and I really had a hard time with this (trying out SE tonight):
> 
> On the "Play" screen, have the track selected, go to the "VST Rack" and add your VST. After, click the "Inspector" button and below that "Routing", click the drop down and select the VST you added to the rack.


Thanks so much man!


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## ZenBYD (Jan 13, 2022)

This is a mega update! certainly an exciting time to be a notation person now

I don't think you can consider Dorico anywhere near a DAW though. DAW = Digital AUDIO workstation... and there's no audio features here at all.

BUT if you're a MIDI guy... a virtual instrument tweaker guy... this is cool


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## youngpokie (Jan 13, 2022)

Patrick Aylett said:


> Any suggestion on the best way to handle track delay? At the moment , in Cubase using Cinematic Studio Strings, I have the long notes on one track with a 333ms delay and the shorts on another track with a 60ms delay.


Right now, you cannot set a track delay value like in Cubase, and yes it would be great to have that in Expression Maps. *However*, this feature in Cubase is rather crude - as you say the price of it is you to route longs and shorts to different channels in order to differentiate them.

What Dorico allows you to do with track offset today is already infinitely more sophisticated.



Patrick Aylett said:


> I guess in Dorico I would need to adjust each note individually in the key editor if they're all one one staff.


Yes, but you can do this in less time than it takes to apply global track offset in Cubase. And you can do a lot more, too:

- with a key command, I can select all notes on the entire the staff and apply playback Start and/or playback End offset - or both. It takes literally less than a second. I have a custom key command for this (Ctrl+A+F+N) and I just need to select 1 note on a staff with a mouse.

- I can select only the musical phrase that I need (fast, slow, legatos, staccatos, etc), use the same key command and apply individual track offsets to the articulation used (e.g. staccatos). What's more - I can select that phrase in _all instruments_ playing it (vertically) and apply the offset _at the same time_. It's a lot faster than clicking track by track in Cubase.

- I can shape the musical phrase itself individually (again, on 1 staff or on every staff - simultaneously) - for example, making the first note in legato passage have different offset then subsequent notes.

The key commands in Dorico are out of this world because you can string them together to perform a macro-like operation in one go. And now in Dorico 4 you can create an "alias" (a key command for the key command) that you can invoke directly from the Jump Bar. So it's even easier because you don't need to remember the sequence any longer.


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## youngpokie (Jan 13, 2022)

DJiLAND said:


> I'll still be on Nuendo since Dorico doesn't support multichannel surround yet.


I conceptualize Dorico as my MIDI only component, containing the score itself and the individual MIDI performances of the parts. The MIDI goes into VEPro, which is the instrument server - but I have read that other people have used Cubase as VEPro so you probably can use Nuendo for that too.

EDIT:

I should say that one of the most useful things for me personally was the realization that I do not have think of Dorico in the same terms and categories as Cubase and apply the same workflow mentality in order to achieve the same goals.

In Cubase, we have the project window showing all tracks and then the MIDI editor that is either per track or per the selected number of tracks. Project Window is great for comping, but for track-level editing of MIDI or audio you _need_ to open the track individually. This dictates the workflow for everything that follows.

But in Dorico, the Write Mode is basically a project-wide MIDI editor and the project window _at the same time_. This allows for a different workflow in terms of speed (Dorico can be as fast or faster than Cubase) and granularity (like the offset - track or note).


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## Patrick Aylett (Jan 13, 2022)

youngpokie said:


> Right now, you cannot set a track delay value like in Cubase, and yes it would be great to have that in Expression Maps. *However*, this feature in Cubase is rather crude - as you say the price of it is you to route longs and shorts to different channels in order to differentiate them.
> 
> What Dorico allows you to do with track offset today is already infinitely more sophisticated.
> 
> ...


Thanks very helpful.


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## ptram (Jan 13, 2022)

ed buller said:


> you can do most things in Cubase. You have to make the presets In either this or Logical editor but it's all there.


Just an impression: the Logical Editor can do many mathematical operations, like changing velocity or durations by formula.

Dorico has strictly musical operations – the same used by Ars Nova musicians, by Bach or by Messiaen.

But maybe I'm missing the details.

Paolo


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## ed buller (Jan 13, 2022)

ptram said:


> Just an impression: the Logical Editor can do many mathematical operations, like changing velocity or durations by formula.
> 
> Dorico has strictly musical operations – the same used by Ars Nova musicians, by Bach or by Messiaen.
> 
> ...


well it's all math !...but yes DORICO is Much more about the notes. Logical editor was originally there to help with ALL sort of tasks. "context variable" and the latest processing shortcuts for notes have been on many people's wish lists for some time. Cubase 11 was a big leap forward in that. But it's still a complex thing to :






But I can now cycle through inversions and add chord tones with the touch of a button !


Best

ed


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## Gil (Jan 13, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> I see that there is a BBCSO template for Dorico. Does anyone know of others? Is there by chance an Orchestral Tools Berlin template?


Hello,

You can check this list on the Dorico forums and VSL has some here.

Regards,
Gil.


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## 3CPU (Jan 13, 2022)

dylanmixer said:


> It looks like a duck. It quacks like a duck. It's a DAW.
> 
> Will anybody be considering moving over a bulk of their workload to Dorico? It obviously won't be a fully featured MIDI powerhouse like Cubase, Studio One, Logic etc. But for those who almost primarily compose orchestral music, a lot of the new features are incredibly attractive. Even from a purely sequencing perspective - notation aside.
> 
> I now may be in a place where if I'm composing something orchestral, even if I don't intend to reach live players, I may reach for Dorico instead of Cubase. Any one else having the same thoughts after watching the announcement?


I may consider Dorico in the future, it appears the workflow would suite me. With iPad and pen option, this will make the workflow feel more natural. I'm going to read up more about Dorico, I love how additions such as lyrics and cue points and how they are displayed! Really nice interface with many options! Awesome.


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## Woodie1972 (Jan 15, 2022)

I love the update!! But I'm afraid my pc thinks a bit different about that.... I run a Windows 10 64bit system, i7-4790, 64GB of RAM and everything on SSD and in VE Pro. Although Dorico 4 runs okay first with a new project, I feel it is slower than with Dorico 3.5, especially when the score grows and then of course more data is in it. 
Curious when the limit will be reached....


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jan 15, 2022)

Woodie1972 said:


> I love the update!! But I'm afraid my pc thinks a bit different about that.... I run a Windows 10 64bit system, i7-4790, 64GB of RAM and everything on SSD and in VE Pro. Although Dorico 4 runs okay first with a new project, I feel it is slower than with Dorico 3.5, especially when the score grows and then of course more data is in it.
> Curious when the limit will be reached....


I have also noticed a bit of sluggishness with Dorico 4 (I'm on Mac - pretty powerful one). I hope they will optimize the performance with the point updates. @Daniel S.


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## lucor (Jan 15, 2022)

Woodie1972 said:


> I love the update!! But I'm afraid my pc thinks a bit different about that.... I run a Windows 10 64bit system, i7-4790, 64GB of RAM and everything on SSD and in VE Pro. Although Dorico 4 runs okay first with a new project, I feel it is slower than with Dorico 3.5, especially when the score grows and then of course more data is in it.
> Curious when the limit will be reached....


That's my one big gripe with Dorico. I love everything about it (great job on this update BTW), but the interface is far from a fast and snappy experience. Especially in big scores it can get quite unpleasant.


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## Seabass001 (May 9, 2022)

Question about workflow for you all:

I'm much more comfortable working in notation software than Logic for composing, making cuts, edits, etc.

- Does Dorico 4 allow you (us) to do everything pre-mixing and -mastering stages within Dorico?

Score to moving picture in Dorico, then export to a DAW for final touches before sending stuff to a mixing engineer?

Thanks.


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## Woodie1972 (May 10, 2022)

Seabass001 said:


> Question about workflow for you all:
> 
> I'm much more comfortable working in notation software than Logic for composing, making cuts, edits, etc.
> 
> ...


For me it's the same: a DAW is a great tool in the right hands, but I work so much faster with notation instead of a piano roll.
Studio One has a pretty decent score editor: Notion light, so to speak, but of course not as good as the big names in notation land and it does not chase dynamics like Cubase does (yet). I think immediate dynamics are recognized and played back okay, but only for velocity based instruments like piano and percussion, but gradual dynamics aren't played back corectly by Studio One. So putting a hairpin under a sustained note in strings or winds with will have no effect.

Anyway, there's not really one answer to your question. There is a mixer in Dorico of course, but it can be quite cumbersome to get a decent result, because you can't group channels, so you have to do this for every single instrument. No need to say this can and will take up a lot of time, especially in larger scores.
But if you use Vienna Ensemble Pro as host, then there are a lot more options. There you can set as many instances you need, which function as a group channel and can be treated like that, but still with the possibility to edit every instrument seperately, with EQ f.e.
In the midi editor in Dorico you can then change a lot of parameters like in a DAW, but only one at a time, where in a DAW multiple lanes can be open at the same time, which makes editing easier.

So yes, you can do a lot in Dorico, it's not as powerful as a DAW, but with VE PRO, it comes pretty close.


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## ptram (May 10, 2022)

Seabass001 said:


> - Does Dorico 4 allow you (us) to do everything pre-mixing and -mastering stages within Dorico?


The mixer is still rudimentary. I'm personally doing all mixing in stages:

- Dynamics in the score.
- Hidden dynamics in the score (not shown in the printed score, but still driving the playback).
- Manual editing of CC7, CC1 and CC11 data.
- Fine-tuning of levels in Vienna Ensemble Pro.
- Channel effects added in Vienna Ensemble Pro.
- Final effects added in Dorico (if using more than a single VEP instance).

I would do any mastering on stems on a separate program, after having exported them from Dorico.

Paolo


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## dyross (May 10, 2022)

Quoting from a post on another thread: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/workflow-from-notation-to-daw.124174/post-5096818



> I have been working on a workflow with Dorico as my *only* program. The mixing / automation etc. isn't as fully featured as, say, Cubase, but it *works*.
> 
> The main problem that I'm seeing is performance. I'm observing playback issues on my first-gen M1 MBP when I have too many VSTs going at once. To remediate this, I'm only using M1 native plugins and not adding effects / mixing that I otherwise would want to.
> 
> ...


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## ptram (May 10, 2022)

dyross said:


> Quoting from a post on another thread


The use of Vienna Ensemble Pro is mandatory. The weight on the CPU is night and day.

Paolo


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## dyross (May 10, 2022)

ptram said:


> The use of Vienna Ensemble Pro is mandatory. The weight on the CPU is night and day.
> 
> Paolo


Hi Paolo,

I haven't used VEP in the past and (I guess naively) assumed it was only for VSL instruments.

Does it have the same improvement for non-VSL instruments? Does it work on M1 native, VST3?

And finally, are there any competitors worth considering?

Thanks,
David


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## José Herring (May 10, 2022)

ptram said:


> The use of Vienna Ensemble Pro is mandatory. The weight on the CPU is night and day.
> 
> Paolo


Yes good solution. 
I just downloaded my evaluation copy of Dorico 4 and I'm actually very excited. just the midi capabilities alone have my thinking of new possibilities for music. 
I'm wondering if at some point something like Rewire could be devloped so that we could use Dorico along side Cubase. Using Cubase for audio and mixing and dorico for notes and midi.


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## dyross (May 10, 2022)

Piggy-backing on my previous message, is there a good explainer on the use of VEP to improve CPU?


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## ptram (May 10, 2022)

dyross said:


> I haven't used VEP in the past and (I guess naively) assumed it was only for VSL instruments.


The free Vienna Ensemble is for VSL instruments only. The paid Vienna Ensemble Pro can host any AU or VST instrument or effect.



dyross said:


> Does it have the same improvement for non-VSL instruments?


With Kontakt instruments, yes in my experience.

No idea about your other questions.

Paolo


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## NuNativs (May 10, 2022)

Please Steinberg work on the Dorico to Cubase integration and let us do away with all these ad hoc workarounds! (Plus, you'll sell licenses to both Dorico AND Cubase).


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## Seabass001 (May 11, 2022)

Woodie1972 said:


> For me it's the same: a DAW is a great tool in the right hands, but I work so much faster with notation instead of a piano roll.
> Studio One has a pretty decent score editor: Notion light, so to speak, but of course not as good as the big names in notation land and it does not chase dynamics like Cubase does (yet). I think immediate dynamics are recognized and played back okay, but only for velocity based instruments like piano and percussion, but gradual dynamics aren't played back corectly by Studio One. So putting a hairpin under a sustained note in strings or winds with will have no effect.
> 
> Anyway, there's not really one answer to your question. There is a mixer in Dorico of course, but it can be quite cumbersome to get a decent result, because you can't group channels, so you have to do this for every single instrument. No need to say this can and will take up a lot of time, especially in larger scores.
> ...


That's rad. Seems like all/most the composing, arranging and editing of the composition itself can be done in Dorico, and then "post production" work in a DAW? 

In the process/workflow composing in Dorico would be like an orchestral recording session of sorts, then you take that to more specialized production services in the DAW?


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## gzapper (May 19, 2022)

dyross said:


> Hi Paolo,
> 
> I haven't used VEP in the past and (I guess naively) assumed it was only for VSL instruments.
> 
> ...


I was using a VEP rig with my intel macbook pro and D4. Now I'm on an M1 Max with 64 gigs and haven't turned on the VEP rig in 4 months. 

One thing to keep in mind if you're using Dorico as a creation tool and going back and forth between Dorico and a DAW is to turn off humanization in Dorico before you export. Dorico's humanization does quite well for playback but when you export you end up with quantizing errors if you go back and forth. 
I exported something with 16th triplets, did some edits in DP, exported back to Dorico and those 16th triplets came back as a mess, as Dorico then reinterpreted and quantized them differently.

Once you watch that step import/export works fairly well.


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## ed buller (May 19, 2022)

You can do it all in Dorico. Just set it up with proper expression maps. touch of compression across the Bus...and print. Forget exporting. 

View attachment Flight Risk.mp3


Best

ed


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## clonewar (May 21, 2022)

ed buller said:


> You can do it all in Dorico. Just set it up with proper expression maps. touch of compression across the Bus...and print. Forget exporting.
> 
> View attachment Flight Risk.mp3
> 
> ...


Very impressive! Did you edit midi in the piano roll, or is that just notation with score markups for dynamics/articulations etc?


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## ed buller (May 21, 2022)

clonewar said:


> Very impressive! Did you edit midi in the piano roll, or is that just notation with score markups for dynamics/articulations etc?


The later. Just typed in the notes and Dynamics. Also added test above for changing articulations via expression maps. No editing or CC writing was added. 

Best

e


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## Woodie1972 (May 22, 2022)

ed buller said:


> You can do it all in Dorico. Just set it up with proper expression maps. touch of compression across the Bus...and print. Forget exporting.
> 
> View attachment Flight Risk.mp3
> 
> ...


Impressive!


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## ed buller (May 22, 2022)

So this is just the strings. Again only Dynamics and Articulation switching. I've added Eventide Stereo Room and a bit of Black Box and Millenia Twin Compression .

View attachment Flight Risk Strings - Flight Risk v8Dom fiddle BBC.mp3




Best

e


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## Hadrondrift (May 22, 2022)

Great stuff indeed!

I like that those dynamics from _pppppp_ to _fffff_ obviously didn't crash neither Dorico nor BBC.


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## ed buller (May 22, 2022)

Hadrondrift said:


> Great stuff indeed!
> 
> I like that those dynamics from _pppppp_ to _fffff_ obviously didn't crash neither Dorico nor BBC.


it's annoying but sometimes pppppp is modwheel 01...so to get a full range you have to go crazy. I am sure they will address this

best


e


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## ptram (May 22, 2022)

ed buller said:


> it's annoying but sometimes pppppp is modwheel 01...so to get a full range you have to go crazy. I am sure they will address this
> 
> best
> 
> ...


Doesn’t changing the dynamic curve improves this?

Paolo


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## ed buller (May 22, 2022)

ptram said:


> Doesn’t changing the dynamic curve improves this?
> 
> Paolo


No…it changes it. Yes you can set it so that fff is 127. But then lesser dynamics do nothing.
best

e


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## Seabass001 (May 24, 2022)

ed buller said:


> So this is just the strings. Again only Dynamics and Articulation switching. I've added Eventide Stereo Room and a bit of Black Box and Millenia Twin Compression .
> 
> View attachment Flight Risk Strings - Flight Risk v8Dom fiddle BBC.mp3
> 
> ...


That's awesome, and all from notation software.

I have worked with notation software for years composing for real musicians, but am learning the production side of things now. Am a beginner Logic student and haven't even begun to learn how to record yet...

Have a few questions about D4:

- I'm just learning and have very little experience with how things work after being composed, but if you did all of that in Dorico4, can you export stems, etc. to send to mixing and mastering engineers in a way that'll be easy and straight forward for them?

- Any issues you can predict that might happen using only D4?

- If you're also responsible for mixing and mastering, for sending a fully-completed and fully-professional product, can it all be done in D4 or is there still need for a DAW/Logic to create work that meets industry standards?

- Is all of that done with Vienna Ensemble Pro?

Thanks,
Seabass


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## ed buller (May 24, 2022)

Seabass001 said:


> can you export stems, etc. to send to mixing and mastering engineers in a way that'll be easy and straight forward for them?


Yes. When you export audio you can send all the staves as individual files in any format. 



Seabass001 said:


> Any issues you can predict that might happen using only D4?


Well.....as awesome as it is it doesn't yet do surround and automation is basically pointless. For some music you are going to want the flexibility of moving at some stage into a DAW, even if it's just for final tweaks. If this music I put up was for a film or TV show id send it to a DAW at this stage. 



Seabass001 said:


> If you're also responsible for mixing and mastering, for sending a fully-completed and fully-professional product, can it all be done in D4 or is there still need for a DAW/Logic to create work that meets industry standards?


See Above



Seabass001 said:


> Is all of that done with Vienna Ensemble Pro?


Yes. The samples are mostly VSL but there's BERLIN for a lot of the short strings and all the 3rd WW players are BBC. There is also som Berlin Brass Mutes in there too

best

e


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## Seabass001 (May 24, 2022)

ed buller said:


> Yes. When you export audio you can send all the staves as individual files in any format.
> 
> 
> Well.....as awesome as it is it doesn't yet do surround and automation is basically pointless. For some music you are going to want the flexibility of moving at some stage into a DAW, even if it's just for final tweaks. If this music I put up was for a film or TV show id send it to a DAW at this stage.
> ...


Thanks!


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## clonewar (May 25, 2022)

ed buller said:


> So this is just the strings. Again only Dynamics and Articulation switching. I've added Eventide Stereo Room and a bit of Black Box and Millenia Twin Compression .
> 
> View attachment Flight Risk Strings - Flight Risk v8Dom fiddle BBC.mp3
> 
> ...


Are these mainly VSL and Berlin Strings?

I'm new to Dorico, just picked up V4 and am getting up to speed. So far it seems like library choice is important to getting the most realistic results with just dynamics and articulation text (and no midi tweaking). Libraries that have a little bit of 'performance' baked in and don't require constant CC tweaking are working better for me so far.


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