# 2022 Studio Monitors



## ChrisHarrison (May 1, 2022)

Hello all,

I’m looking for new studio monitors. Upgrading from Event TR6.

Listened to some Yamaha and adam and focal speakers, loved the Adams. A7x model

Looking in the 2000-4000 range.

I’m seeing S2V for about 4k
P33 for 1200
S2x For 2k
A77x for 2k
S3x-h 5800
S3a for 2k
S3h 6500

Casting a wide net. Looking both new and used.

To me the Adams I heard were very very accurate, leaps and bounds over what I’m used to with the events. I’m down for a one time 10 year investment, just not sure where I could even hear these back to back.

I’m writing orchestral music with spitfire sounds and synths and hybrid stuff. Also electronic hip hop and funky stuff with big bass. I also play bass, so it’s important to me. I checked an Andre Gouche Chacha khan track on the A7s and it was super booty lows without that sloppy muddy sub low, way more focused but still subby as heck in the right way. Like a hi fi way.

How about the competitors too? Seems like there’s lots of options in the mid price range.

Will be mostly writing on them as I have a mix engineer I like to use. Something that can handle horror movie style spl levels and slap bass and low frequency special effects like damage 2 samples and synth bass etc.

Would love to mix in 5.1 eventually. Maybe something that sounds good 2.0 that I could buy two more of. Maybe with a sub for the .1 stuff. I wish I would just hear a bunch of these

My room is large, untreated. It’s a full sized basement with is finished and carpeted. 

Down for any and all information on the topic!


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## cel4145 (May 1, 2022)

ChrisHarrison said:


> My room is large, untreated. It’s a full sized basement with is finished and carpeted.



You would be better off putting half or more of your budget towards treating your room. That would make a bigger difference than spending all of your budget on speakers.


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## PaulieDC (May 1, 2022)

My desk is near a wall and kind of near a corner and just putting up inexpensive acoustic tiles on the wall behind my monitors made a huge difference, plus cheap foam wedges in the corner for bass build up. Then my monitors went on yoga blocks which gave the perfect height and act as some absorption arguably. ANYWAY, I did this after buying this system and very meticulously doing the room measurements with the mic and software. 2 inches off and it blows it. The sound is all I had hoped for, even and clear and NO noticeable transition between subs and near fields. However, when I first set it all up, it sounded thin and horrible and I thought I wasted my money. I posted this thread to show all of my mistakes. You don't have to buy this system, just sharing another person's experience when dealing with systems that are a bit up there in price. Happy hunting!


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## davidson (May 2, 2022)

Definitely consider the genelec 'the one' range, especially if you have a mostly untreated room. The SAM feature turns the monitors from amazing to god-like.

Also, don't be put off by the size of the smallest 8331 model, the volume and frequency range is scary!


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## muk (May 2, 2022)

Hi Chris,

there are lots of brands to investigate: Geithain, Genelec, Psi Audio, Neumann, Amphion, Event Opal, Barefoot Sound...

Here's an extensive thread about high end nearfield monitors:









High end nearfield test - Gearspace.com


There is no one about them. I got that brochure asking them through their facebook.



gearspace.com





And a (in my opinion) useful resource:









Speaker Review and Measurement Index


Master database of speaker review and measurements




www.audiosciencereview.com


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## cel4145 (May 2, 2022)

muk said:


> Hi Chris,
> 
> there are lots of brands to investigate: Geithain, Genelec, Psi Audio, Neumann, Amphion, Event Opal, Barefoot Sound...
> 
> ...



Erin's Audio Corner is also a good resource for objective measurements of speakers, and he has done many studio monitors






Loudspeakers


The Sound of Science



www.erinsaudiocorner.com


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## Bakhtin (May 2, 2022)

davidson said:


> Definitely consider the genelec 'the one' range, especially if you have a mostly untreated room. The SAM feature turns the monitors from amazing to god-like.
> 
> Also, don't be put off by the size of the smallest 8331 model, the volume and frequency range is scary!


I have the 8331s and a sub. 
The coaxial design provides amazing soundstage and depth, which is great for engineering but also for developing more complicated arrangements.
The GLM software handles adding speakers and subs, and sets them up for you re phase, time alignment, frequency. Dead simple.
I only have treatment on the first reflection points (inc ceiling) but it sounds great, with flat bass down to 20Hz.
Best audio purchase I've made.


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## Sergievsky (May 2, 2022)

I have a pair of ADAM S3As that have served me well as a doorstop for the past 10years. Getting the internal amps fixed would have required sending cabinets and all to Germany, so the cost would be ridiculous for where I am. That kinda taught me to look into passive monitors, where you could just buy a new, separate external amp should you need to. Need to listen to those Amphions and see what the fuss is about.


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## DJiLAND (May 2, 2022)

Genlec and Neumann does not fail.


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## cedricm (May 2, 2022)

ChrisHarrison said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I’m looking for new studio monitors. Upgrading from Event TR6.
> 
> ...


I've been using Adam Audio monitors for 15 years - highly recommended. 
I would contact them and ask for any advice for a solution that can migrate to 5.1 or Atmos.


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## charlieclouser (May 3, 2022)

Been doing another monitor shootout this past couple of weeks. In the picture are my trusty (and crusty) Dynaudio AIR15's in 5.1 (with AirBase2 not shown), a loaner/demo set of Genelec 8351b on top of w371 "woofer stands" (7370 sub not shown), and my Dynaudio Core59 (with CoreSub not shown).

I know and love the AIRs, which are 10" 2-ways that are broadly similar to their Lyd8 / BM15/Core7, but since the AIRs are discontinued I recognize that I need a modern solution (even though I have many spares). So I got a set of the biggest and best of their near/mid field monitors, the Core59 with the CoreSub. They do sound better than the AIRs, with crispier and more extended highs and more defined midrange. I normally do not like front-ported speakers due to the fact that if I push the bottom to the point that I get "port chuffing", it's more obvious in a front-ported design than a rear-ported one (like the AIRs). But the rectangular shape of the ports on the Cores minimizes this to a surprising degree.

The Cores are excellent, and have the familiar and non-fatiguing "Dynaudio sound" that I know and love. And the CoreSub pushes plenty of bass from four 9" woofers and 1,000 watts of Class-D Pascal amps - the 3db down point is quoted as 15hz. My only complaint is that they lack the Cat5 networking and control setup of the AIRs, which have a dedicated hardware remote with mutes, preset levels, and a nice knob. Since I like to feed full-scale (not attenuated at the source) AES digital feeds from my DAW, I may need a dedicated monitor controller that has digital in AND out for the Cores, and the choices are slim - Avocet, Grace m908, or Studio Technologies 760-03.

The Genelecs, however, are kind of on another level, for two main reasons: point source and GLM.

Point Source = The weird looking cabinets put the tweeter in the center of the midrange driver, with the LF drivers hidden behind and inside the all-metal cabinet. This results in the audio coming from a single point in space, and the effect is not subtle. This means that the phantom center is rock-solid, imaging is super-precise, and most importantly there are no issues of "driver focusing" or "firing line" issues, like when you move your head around a bit in front of a normal three-way speaker you move in and out of the direct firing line of each of the three drivers. This is why I've never liked ATC speakers because I need to be ten feet or more away from them before the drivers converge at my ear. The 2-way Dynaudios don't really suffer from this too much, and the new 3-way Core59 has the drivers very close together, so this issue is also minimized with them. But with the Genelec "Ones" (8331 / 8341 / 8351 / 8361) this issue does not exist - AT ALL. It's pretty incredible, and is why I still have a pair of giant Tannoy System-15 DMTs in the closet. That co-axial thing is not snake oil. It really is the way speakers "should" be in my opinion.

GLM = Genelec's room analysis and correction system is about the best I reckon. The "GLM Kit" consists of a little box that connects to the computer via USB and the speakers via Cat5, and a calibrated measurement mic that connects to the box. (There is also an optional wireless remote, and a wired hardware volume knob that connects to the box as well.) The box only needs to be connected to the computer for the calibration process, after which the correction eq curves can be pushed to the speakers and stored in them. But if you do leave it connected then you can use a nifty app to mute / solo / change configurations / etc., and it has a nice pop up window that appears for a few seconds when you adjust volume or mutes. The calibration process is quick and painless, and the system can accommodate immersive setups up to 22.2 and beyond. It calibrates frequency, phase, and time-of-flight delays for all speakers and subs in the setup, and using multiple subwoofers is easy.

Those giant woofers under the 8351s in my photo are the w371 "woofer stands" which have huge front and rear firing woofers that can counteract each other to achieve *directional low end radiation*, similar to the "cardioid bass response" in speakers like the Dutch+Dutch 8c or KII-Three. (However the D+D and KII all have much larger latency when operated in that mode, as much as 100msec, so while that might be okay for mixing it won't fly when playing and recording.) The w371s are NOT subwoofers, they are "low frequency extension modules" and the GLM system treats an 83x1 and its w371 as a single unit when calibrating, and the 83x1 must be placed on top of them as shown, essential turning the combo into a "free-field main monitor" like the Barefoot Master Stack or similar. And they are $$$$$ - about $8k EACH.

I think the w371s are just too big, both physically and sonically, for my room. You kind of need to be about ten feet away in a bigger room before you get the most from them. Even at mega levels in my room, the woofers on the w371 are only moving about 1/2" at most. So, fortunately for my wallet, I won't need them. I actually prefer a discrete sub like the 73x0 series that integrate with the 83x1 via GLM very well. Once it's all calibrated, those "epic cinematic downer" samples sound clean and smooth as the bass drops all the way to the center of the earth - no lumps or gaps in the bass sweeps. With the AIRs I can hear very slight bumps and dips as the bass sweeps down. The Core system is much smoother than the AIRs, but the Genelecs get it as perfect as it can be in my non-purpose-built room. I do have 8" of bass traps on the entire front wall and a 10' x 4' ceiling cloud, and triangular bass traps floor-to-ceiling in the corners, but still...

In the demo system I have, I'm using a single 7370 sub which is a 12" woofer. At mega levels I was able to red-light a single 7370, but not the 8351s. I have also tried the 7380 sub which is a 15" woofer, and I could not red-light that thing without risking cracking the foundation to my house! But I recognize that there are advantages to having two subs instead of one - you can put one near the center and one toward the side to help counteract room modes, and GLM is ready to calibrate any wild configuration you can think of (and afford!). So I may go for 8351s with a pair of 7370 subs to get more headroom. Or even the 8361s with a pair of the 15" 7380 subs, that would be awesome and no way would I red-light that rig! For surrounds you can use one model smaller that your LCR, so it could be 8351 across the LCR, with 8341 for rears. For immersive, you can go down another model for the ceiling speakers, so those could be 8331s. But you don't want to skip a model, so 8361 across LCR with 8331 for rears is not recommended for instance.

Some caveats to the GLM calibration however: Unlike SonarWorks, the GLM system is "cuts only"; it does not apply boosts in the correction eq curve, because that could significantly decrease system headroom (as SonarWorks users know). However you can manually add boosts if you want - the DSP eq inside the speakers is essentially 10 (?) parametric bands, so there's usually some unused bands after "Auto-Cal" is finished. Also, GLM does not apply correction above 2kHz. So for upper mid and high frequencies you're on your own. You can of course manually edit the eq to tame any peaks in those ranges though. But essentially the eq bands are standard, three-parameter deals, and not the "infinite bands with asymmetrical slopes" thing that SonarWorks seems to be able to do.

No matter, once GLM has done its Auto-Cal magic, the Genelec "Ones" (as they call them) sound ridiculously good. Smooth, accurate, not "phase-y" at all, and you really can't hear any separation between the mains and the subs. The point-source thing is a revelation, and they are just fantastic. Definitely worth checking out.

For me I'm still deciding how big to go on the Genelec setup. They are not cheap, but if I'm gonna do it I might as well go big and get it over with. However lots of folks have the 8341 + 7360 setup and are quite happy. The 8331 might be a little small for composers though. They sound the same as the bigger ones but just don't go as loud.

I have tried Amphion and did not like - too clinical and "small" and not fun at all for me.

I have tried ATC and the driver alignment thing was a problem for me. I'd want at least the 100's, and unless I can get a bigger room and get farther away from them the drivers don't align by the time the sound hits my ears. I tried the 25's and they just didn't have the fun oomph that I want.

The only others I am curious about are the new PMCs that just came out. The Neumanns don't really interest me as they seem to lack some features for surround / immersive setups. For stereo they're probably fine, although I think only the smallest ones and the sub have the DSP - maybe when they update the bigger models to have the same calibration + DSP features I'll take another look.

GLM can calibrate to 22.2 if you want so it's all good there. (Also, that audiosciencereview site measured the Genelecs as one of the most accurate, if not THE most accurate, speakers they'd ever tested, so there's that.)

So that's what I did last week. How was your week?


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## charlieclouser (May 3, 2022)

I should add:

The only breaking news on the horizon is speakers or audio interfaces that can load and apply SonarWorks correction curves in their dedicated DSP, instead of using the goofy SystemWide plugin or whatever (which I absolutely do not want to do for workflow reasons). There is some boutique 2-way speaker from England that can do this (I forget the name), and the Merging Anubis audio interface can load a SonarWorks correction curve and apply it directly to a given set of outputs that are connected to your speakers, which is an ideal solution - EXCEPT - at the moment it can only do this in stereo, no surround or immersive. Hopefully this will change, and hopefully MOTU + RME will license or reverse-engineer this technology and leverage the on-board DSP in their audio interfaces to apply room correction directly on the desired outputs. Stay tuned.


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## Manaberry (May 3, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> I should add:
> 
> The only breaking news on the horizon is speakers or audio interfaces that can load and apply SonarWorks correction curves in their dedicated DSP, instead of using the goofy SystemWide plugin or whatever (which I absolutely do not want to do for workflow reasons). There is some boutique 2-way speaker from England that can do this (I forget the name), and the Merging Anubis audio interface can load a SonarWorks correction curve and apply it directly to a given set of outputs that are connected to your speakers, which is an ideal solution - EXCEPT - at the moment it can only do this in stereo, no surround or immersive. Hopefully this will change, and hopefully MOTU + RME will license or reverse-engineer this technology and leverage the on-board DSP in their audio interfaces to apply room correction directly on the desired outputs. Stay tuned.


Glad to see I'm not the only one being worried by Sonarworks software. I also do hope for some on-board room correction someday.
For now, I'm using my slave machine to make the correction _(literally right before the D/A converter, using ADAT. Thanks UAD, RME, and Cantabile)_ as I don't want to spoil my DAW stability with the plugins.
As an alternative to systemwide, I do use Hijack + SoundID Plugin. It's way more stable.


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## muk (May 3, 2022)

The Genelecs seem to be seriously good speakers. Next time I'm upgrading my Atmos setup it will most probably be with Genelecs.

As for digital room correction, Dirac Live does a much better job at it than Sonarworks in my opinion:









Dirac Live Room Correction Suite – Dirac







www.dirac.com





There's a 14 days free trial. I'd try that before commiting to Sonarworks.


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## Tim_Wells (May 3, 2022)

Please consider treating you space first.


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## muk (May 3, 2022)

Tim_Wells said:


> Please consider treating you space first.


Yes, that should be a given.


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## ChrisHarrison (May 3, 2022)

Thank you all for the thorough answers! Just the nerd talk I needed. I’m going to contact Sweetwater and see if I can get the genelecs and the Adam’s and shoot them out. Treating the room is important, and I will explore this as well. Anyone have good resources on room treatment?


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## gsilbers (May 3, 2022)

ChrisHarrison said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I’m looking for new studio monitors. Upgrading from Event TR6.
> 
> ...




I have the Eve audio sc307 and they are amazing. I used to have the focal solo6be and it was night and day how much i prefer the eves. Smooth, flat and the bass consistent down to 40hz even at low lower volumes and also very loud for a large/long basement. 

One thing to note is that in the past 2-4 years there been a quiet revolution in speaker design. Might not be too obvious but its important. 
Class D speakers are now more standard, powrfull, sound as good as class a/b and the price vs performance is outstanding so if you are coming from more lower budget speakers dont think you have to spend as much as someone 5-10 years ago did. Who might still be judging speakers before class D amps became a thing. 
That post from charlie above about the dynaudio core59.. yep class D. New focal shapes also class d, barefoot footprint also class d as well as hedd, and some adams. That means that for a lower priced and newer speaker you could get as much value as those older adams, which are good of course, but i was also looking at those and prices are pretty steep. 
At the ned of the day is a personal choice no matter how many charts you look at audioscience forums posts so if you get a chance to travel to where you can check maybe it could work better to compare.


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## Dietz (May 3, 2022)

muk said:


> As for digital room correction, Dirac Live does a much better job at it than Sonarworks in my opinion:


+1! "Poor man's Trinnov", as we call it here. 

I have my "rock'n'roll"-stereo mains as well as my whole 10.1 Auro-3D setup optimized by Dirac Live - the lower circle by means of a miniDSP hardware box, the upper one and VOG using the software-only version in Nuendo's Control Room.

It's the only system I don't "hear" somehow (apart from the Trinnov, of course).


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## JohnG (May 3, 2022)

I wonder how many people are using the Neumann setup with their calibration system? I'm tempted to try their powered sub with the MA 1 microphone and software just to see what happens.

It's a little above the OP's price range to add to that the Neumann 3-way speakers but I am kind of in love with 3-ways instead of just 2.


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## muk (May 3, 2022)

Dietz said:


> +1! "Poor man's Trinnov", as we call it here.
> 
> I have my "rock'n'roll"-stereo mains as well as my whole 10.1 Auro-3D setup optimized by Dirac Live - the lower circle by means of a miniDSP hardware box, the upper one and VOG using the software-only version in Nuendo's Control Room.
> 
> It's the only system I don't "hear" somehow (apart from the Trinnov, of course).


Indeed. It's odd that it isn't talked more about on Vi-C. Only Sonarworks seems to be known, and Dirac Live is clearly better. At least for me it is.


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## synergy543 (May 3, 2022)

JohnG said:


> I wonder how many people are using the Neumann setup with their calibration system? I'm tempted to try their powered sub with the MA 1 microphone and software just to see what happens.
> 
> It's a little above the OP's price range to add to that the Neumann 3-way speakers but I am kind of in love with 3-ways instead of just 2.


John, I wonder how much as second sub would improve the smoothness of the response? (by reducing the effect of standing waves). The results could provide a substantial improvement for a relatively modest price increase. 

Using the subs along with a 3-way system would kind of turn it into a 4-way system. Though, I wonder if this makes good sense given the relatively close crossover points on the KH310 (as compared with something like the Focal Trio be 11s which I think has a much higher cross over point). Only discerning ears could tell. Are any of the crossover points audible?

Also, assuming you're considering the KH310, I wonder if these provide enough volume for loud orchestral passages without clipping? Moving up to the KH420 is a fairly substantial leap (and would ideally be paired with larger subs).

What is the size of your room? I've dreamt about this same setup, but I wonder if it would be sufficient in my room which is 26 (w) x 16(d) x 14(h)?. I like to monitor at a distance of about 7 feet and this seems just on the edge of what the Neumann KH310 could handle without clipping.

Please do share your results if you test any of the above.


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## charlieclouser (May 3, 2022)

JohnG said:


> I wonder how many people are using the Neumann setup with their calibration system? I'm tempted to try their powered sub with the MA 1 microphone and software just to see what happens.
> 
> It's a little above the OP's price range to add to that the Neumann 3-way speakers but I am kind of in love with 3-ways instead of just 2.


I admit to being curious about the Neumann setups. I think it was a thread on Gearspace that made me think that in order to use their calibration system you had to have the kh750 sub or the smallest speaker, which contain the DSP, and that the 310 speakers did not have the DSP calibration by themselves. If anyone has that setup, chime in!

As to the Dirac, I'm assuming it's implemented as a plugin, similar to SonarWorks, yes? Any idea of the play-through latency?

I've heard Trinnov in Scott from The Crystal Method's room, and it sounds fantastic in there with an older 2.1 setup of big Blue Sky 3-ways and a sub. Like a freakin' nightclub system, awesome. 

If Logic had a "control room" section like Cubase that would sure make it easier to use a plugin based system like Dirac or Sonarworks.... jealous.


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## MartinH. (May 3, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> I should add:
> 
> The only breaking news on the horizon is speakers or audio interfaces that can load and apply SonarWorks correction curves in their dedicated DSP, instead of using the goofy SystemWide plugin or whatever (which I absolutely do not want to do for workflow reasons). There is some boutique 2-way speaker from England that can do this (I forget the name), and the Merging Anubis audio interface can load a SonarWorks correction curve and apply it directly to a given set of outputs that are connected to your speakers, which is an ideal solution - EXCEPT - at the moment it can only do this in stereo, no surround or immersive. Hopefully this will change, and hopefully MOTU + RME will license or reverse-engineer this technology and leverage the on-board DSP in their audio interfaces to apply room correction directly on the desired outputs. Stay tuned.



This is probably a dumb question, but couldn't you turn the correction curves into IRs and use an IR loader guitar pedal for each speaker?


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## JohnG (May 3, 2022)

synergy543 said:


> What is the size of your room? I've dreamt about this same setup, but I wonder if it would be sufficient in my room which is 26 (w) x 16(d) x 14(h)


I have never actually measured my room. Its chief virtue (apart from having lots of light) is that it's quite irregular, so it doesn't suffer some of the problems a cube or rectangle can generate.

It's maybe 20 x 12 x 10 (L,W,H) in feet? IDK. Either way, it's wonky.

I already have a sub but it is nothing like the quality of the Neumann. I was thinking of substituting, not adding, the Neumann

I was looking at this: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/de...bwoofer-and-ma1-measurement-microphone-bundle

It's the Neumann Monitor Alignment Kit 1- KH750 Sub and MA1 Mic bundle.

Alternatively, there's this: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/de...onitors-and-ma1-measurement-microphone-bundle

Which, as @charlieclouser wrote above, is a pair of rather small speakers (the KH80s) and the measurement tool. Last time I looked, you couldn't use the calibration with any other speaker setup, so unless that's changed, it's either these or their sub.


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## KEM (May 3, 2022)

The new Adam Audio A7V has certainly caught my attention, don’t know if I’ll ever pull the trigger on them though. Like you I’m also in a large basement and it has the worst room echo I’ve ever heard, treatment is on my list before new monitors


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## JonS (May 3, 2022)

ChrisHarrison said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I’m looking for new studio monitors. Upgrading from Event TR6.
> 
> ...


Movie theaters often use JBL speakers, and though I own Genelec 1030a and I used to own a larger size too, I find the JBL 308P mkII speakers to be absolutely perfect to compose, mix, master and playback. I just think spending more money than one has to is just not necessary. Throughout my career I have owned KRK, Tannoy, Auratone, Yamaha NS10, multiple sized Genelec, Roland, and tried other speakers, and as much as I adore my Genelec 1030a I just think the JBL 308P MKII is all one needs. Obviously this is my humble opinion as I think each person should get whatever they think they want at that time. But realize, that more often than not your film score is only going to be played back through JBL speakers so why not just use JBLs yourself so you know the kind of sound you are creating. Clearly each system at each theater space is unique, but for too long I overspent money on speakers that I just didn't really need in the end. Just sharing my thoughts.


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## muk (May 4, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> As to the Dirac, I'm assuming it's implemented as a plugin, similar to SonarWorks, yes? Any idea of the play-through latency?


It's a plugin, yes. It can be a DAW plugin (VST2, _VST3_, AU, or AAX), or it can run systemwide. Or you can use hardware solutions from miniDSP.

The latency is around 15ms if I remember correctly, so rougly the same as with Sonarworks.


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## synergy543 (May 4, 2022)

JohnG said:


> Which, as @charlieclouser wrote above, is a pair of rather small speakers (the KH80s) and the measurement tool. Last time I looked, you couldn't use the calibration with any other speaker setup, so unless that's changed, it's either these or their sub.


I guess the Neumann system attempts to smooth out room nodes with EQ. I can see how this might work in the upper range, but in the lower range where you have room node cancellations it may not work as well in certain situations with a single sub. I've experimented by adding a second sub and I was extremely impressed with the results. If you're going to experiment with new monitors and have the budget, you might consider getting a second sub and just moving it around the room to see if it smooths out the nodes. I was so impressed that I'll never go back to a single sub.


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## JohnG (May 4, 2022)

synergy543 said:


> If you're going to experiment with new monitors and have the budget, you might consider getting a second sub and just moving it around the room to see if it smooths out the nodes. I was so impressed that I'll never go back to a single sub.


Never knew that — thanks!


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## synergy543 (May 4, 2022)

This is from the Neumann KH750 Sub manual.


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## Pier (May 4, 2022)

synergy543 said:


> I guess the Neumann system attempts to smooth out room nodes with EQ. I can see how this might work in the upper range, but in the lower range where you have room node cancellations it may not work as well in certain situations with a single sub. I've experimented by adding a second sub and I was extremely impressed with the results. If you're going to experiment with new monitors and have the budget, you might consider getting a second sub and just moving it around the room to see if it smooths out the nodes. I was so impressed that I'll never go back to a single sub.


The little acoustics theory I know tells me having more than one sub must be a really bad thing... but I've seen tons of people in the home theater community swearing it's really a game changer.

I will definitely add a second sub to my Atmos HT setup at some point.


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## Loïc D (May 4, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> I admit to being curious about the Neumann setups. I think it was a thread on Gearspace that made me think that in order to use their calibration system you had to have the kh750 sub or the smallest speaker, which contain the DSP, and that the 310 speakers did not have the DSP calibration by themselves. If anyone has that setup, chime in!
> 
> As to the Dirac, I'm assuming it's implemented as a plugin, similar to SonarWorks, yes? Any idea of the play-through latency?
> 
> ...


This !
I really wonder why Logic never did this…


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## Pier (May 4, 2022)

Loïc D said:


> This !
> I really wonder why Logic never did this…


Yeah but to be fair on macOS it's super easy to just add a system wide EQ (or any AU) using something like Soundsource.

AFAIK there's nothing on Windows as easy or reliable. The closest thing is Equalizer APO which is quite buggy in my experience.


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## charlieclouser (May 4, 2022)

Loïc D said:


> This !
> I really wonder why Logic never did this…


A workaround in Logic is to route all of your stems AND the composite mix, through Aux Objects like this (example shown for 8x stems plus a composite mix in a 5.1 setup):

• Auxes 1-6 = Monitoring outs = sourced from busses 1-6 = outputs to hardware outs 1-6 = SonarWorks on these outputs only.

• Auxes 7-12 = Composite Mix busses = sourced from busses 7-12 = outputs to hardware outs 7-12 = sends to busses 1-6 to double-route them to the Auxes that feed the Monitoring (SonarWorks) outputs.

• Auxes 13-60 = Stem Sub Master busses = sourced from busses 13-60 = outputs to hardware outs 13-60 = sends from these Aux Objects feed busses 7-12 at unity gain to sum all stems into the composite mix.

All instruments and audio tracks feed busses 13-60 only, never routed directly to busses 1-6 or 7-12.

The print rig records only from Logic's Outputs 7-60, ignoring the Monitoring Outputs 1-6. So with my MADI interconnect I have 8x stems + composite mix, each in 5.1, for a total of 54 channels. Add the 6 channels of the Monitoring paths and I still have four empty channels on the MADI stream. Should work.

Obviously it's way less complex, and uses far fewer busses / Auxes when only doing stereo paths.

Mind you, I haven't actually tried this but I will tonight, with a demo version of SonarWorks, just to see if it works. With this setup you don't need to remember to bypass SonarWorks when you print a mix to the separate print rig. However, I need to check if Logic's "bounce in place" actually routes the signal through Outputs 1+2 and any plugins in that path. Since the SonarWorks will be on an Aux that *feeds* Outputs 1+2, and not on the Outputs themselves, I think the BIP will "go around" the plugin. Need to check though. Same with doing a normal Bounce, which I do a lot to just capture a simple stereo mix - need to verify if this goes around vs through the SonarWorks on the Aux that feeds Outputs 1+2.

I will report my findings.


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## Drumdude2112 (May 4, 2022)

Barefoot Micromain 27 for nearly a decade now 👍🏻


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## cel4145 (May 4, 2022)

Pier said:


> The little acoustics theory I know tells me having more than one sub must be a really bad thing... but I've seen tons of people in the home theater community swearing it's really a game changer.
> 
> I will definitely add a second sub to my Atmos HT setup at some point.



If a room is well treated, then you only need one sub.

If a room is not well treated, then two subs can often be used to smooth the frequency response at the listening position. But you can't just place them anywhere, or it could end up being worse.


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## Pier (May 4, 2022)

cel4145 said:


> If a room is well treated, then you only need one sub.


Honestly I don't think it's feasible to fix a bad room geometry for sub frequencies with any kind of treatment.

I'm not a pro though. I'd love to be proven wrong. Here's my reasoning:

At 50Hz the wavelength is 4 meters (about 13 feet). For absorbers to be effective they need to be placed 1/4 of the wavelength so they catch the wave at its max displacement.






And most absorbers are not very effective below 100Hz so you'd need a lot of it.






So to treat 50Hz you'd be loosing about 4 feet of space, per wall.

I guess it's possible to use a Helmholtz resonator to fix a particular frequency but I think you'd be lucky to just need one.


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## Byrial (May 4, 2022)

Pier said:


> Honestly I don't think it's feasible to fix a bad room geometry for sub frequencies with any kind of treatment.
> 
> I'm not a pro though. I'd love to be proven wrong. Here's my reasoning:
> 
> ...


The low freq energy has a tendency to accumulate in certain areas of the room right? So I recon you don’t need an even spread of 4 feet treatment, but rather, can pick out one place (any place?) and place a ton of high density porous material there?

Thank you for all the wild insights all. 

MB


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## cel4145 (May 4, 2022)

Pier said:


> Honestly I don't think it's feasible to fix a bad room geometry for sub frequencies with any kind of treatment.



If you can't well treat your room to remove room modes, then your room is not well treated. 

So you can use multiple subs, well placed, to reduce the impact of room modes.

This article by Dr Floyd Toole will get you started








History of Multi-Sub & Sound Field Management (SFM) for Small Room Acoustics


Solving bass problems in small rooms have historically been done with low frequency absorption (ie. bass traps). This article discusses an alternative/complimentary solution using multi-sub and SFM.




www.audioholics.com


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## Pier (May 5, 2022)

Martin Byrial said:


> The low freq energy has a tendency to accumulate in certain areas of the room right?


AFAIK that's not correct.

Modes are all over the room, in different positions for different frequencies.






Maybe you're referring to the idea that low frequency accumulates in the corners?

AFAIK that's not the case either. Bass traps are put in the corners because it allows you to put your panels diagonally, hence extending the distance between the wall and the absorber to catch the 1/4 of the wavelength I mentioned earlier.







See this article.


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## ChrisHarrison (May 8, 2022)

This got deep. Now I want two subs. How would you route this audio in a stereo rig? The sub hits a crossover from the main speakers for from the audio interface output? 

And in a multi sub set up… is it just duplicated the .1 send to two subs? Or do the subs run off of the mains just to give you a bigger freq response?


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## ChrisHarrison (May 8, 2022)

What do you guys think of JBL 708 for writing? My mixing guy told me they’re the standard for post mixing for film. Kinda want to be greedy and write music on the most dope sounding hyped speakers and let him deal with the boring sounding flat speakers. But definitely, as long as it knocks in the bottom with sub bass, similar to my live bass rig, I’ll be happy. I want to feel the bass, that way I don’t over boost the super lows just to get that feeling. I’ll be plugging in my 5string bass often as well as sub synths and 808s etc that really need to be accurate as a foundation. 

Two subs sounds fun as hell.


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## ChrisHarrison (May 8, 2022)

That being said, if the jbls are good for writing, detailed, and can get some booty down there, I strongly trust my mixer’s opinion.

Something inspiring sound wise would be a nice change, and accurate lows monitoring at low volume and high.


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## JonS (May 8, 2022)

ChrisHarrison said:


> What do you guys think of JBL 708 for writing? My mixing guy told me they’re the standard for post mixing for film. Kinda want to be greedy and write music on the most dope sounding hyped speakers and let him deal with the boring sounding flat speakers. But definitely, as long as it knocks in the bottom with sub bass, similar to my live bass rig, I’ll be happy. I want to feel the bass, that way I don’t over boost the super lows just to get that feeling. I’ll be plugging in my 5string bass often as well as sub synths and 808s etc that really need to be accurate as a foundation.
> 
> Two subs sounds fun as hell.


I think the JBL 708P are perfect speakers for writing, mixing, mastering and composing.


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## ChrisHarrison (May 8, 2022)

JonS said:


> I think the JBL 708P are perfect speakers for writing, mixing, mastering and composing.


With a sub… or two? lol


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## cel4145 (May 9, 2022)

ChrisHarrison said:


> This got deep. Now I want two subs. How would you route this audio in a stereo rig? The sub hits a crossover from the main speakers for from the audio interface output?
> 
> And in a multi sub set up… is it just duplicated the .1 send to two subs? Or do the subs run off of the mains just to give you a bigger freq response?



Studio subs often have inputs and outputs with an optional high pass filter on the outputs. So you can connect the speakers to the sub with the high pass signal.

So you would split the audio coming from your interface and send it to both subs. Then the speakers would connect to one of the subs.


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## JonS (May 9, 2022)

ChrisHarrison said:


> With a sub… or two? lol


You don't need any subs, but there is nothing wrong with getting a sub or two to go with these speakers!! At a movie theater, not a lot of the music ever gets sent to the subs, so I think having subs in a composer studio is personal preference.


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## ChrisHarrison (May 9, 2022)

I feel like as a bass player, and with the goal of focusing on low end development, I want to break the rules a bit and write for the sub as part of the music. It’s touchy territory. Basically, 30hz are is where the money is on my bass amp for the live large venue hip hop/modern gospel sound. It’s double by a 100hz bump too. I feel like mike dean would write film music and use the sub lol. Because a big part of the “orchestra” at that point is 808, sine wave bass, low A 5 string etc.


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## Pier (May 9, 2022)

BTW I started this thread a while ago about subs on media composer studios






Do you have a sub woofer in your monitoring setup?


As I'm working on my sub woofer presets for Zebra it made me wonder... do media composers typically have 5.1 setups or at least 2.1? I imagine in this day an age the vast majority of music ends up in 5.1 or probably in object-based surround formats like Atmos or DTS-X.




vi-control.net


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## ChrisHarrison (May 9, 2022)

So sub sounds clutch. How do you set it to the right crossover freq? What would pair well with the jbl 708s?


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## ChrisHarrison (May 9, 2022)

Also, a .1 LFE is different than setting up subs to extend the freq range of the normal 2.0 speakers right? Can someone break this down for me?


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## TonalDynamics (May 9, 2022)

ChrisHarrison said:


> I feel like as a bass player, and with the goal of focusing on low end development, I want to break the rules a bit and write for the sub as part of the music. It’s touchy territory. Basically, 30hz are is where the money is on my bass amp for the live large venue hip hop/modern gospel sound. It’s double by a 100hz bump too. I feel like mike dean would write film music and use the sub lol. Because a big part of the “orchestra” at that point is 808, sine wave bass, low A 5 string etc.


'Writing for the sub' - cool idea!

Imagine if every stereo system in the world had a sub, then we could all do this.

Wouldn't it be nice?


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## TonalDynamics (May 9, 2022)

Pier said:


> AFAIK that's not correct.
> 
> Modes are all over the room, in different positions for different frequencies.
> 
> ...


To be more precise (I'm no Bob katz so forgive me if I leave something out), low freq. bass waves do two things that make trapping in corners ideal:

The lower the freq., the more the waveform radiates in _all_ directions as it leaves the source (in this case the woofer), as opposed to a more directional vector from the tweeters (hence why back wall diffusion behind the listening position works so well for enhancing imaging)
Due to the increased decay length and higher energy, it tends to not only disperse more, but fill the room more as well
Thus the corners are just geometrically ideal for getting the most bang-for-buck amount of ricocheting low frequencies in a room 

Cheers


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## Pier (May 9, 2022)

ChrisHarrison said:


> Also, a .1 LFE is different than setting up subs to extend the freq range of the normal 2.0 speakers right? Can someone break this down for me?


If you have a surround setup, typically each speaker is a discrete channel. At least on a home theater setup it's also very common to use the sub to extend the range of the satellites.

Honestly if you're doing stereo there isn't much of a point to have discrete channels. I'd just use the sub to extend the frequency range of the speakers with a crossover. Typically you send the stereo output from your interface to the sub which acts as crossover and then has two outputs for your speakers.



TonalDynamics said:


> 'Writing for the sub' - cool idea!


I actually made a Zebra library which is just about sub content. It's mostly about FX and percussion but there are some sub basses too.

I'm also working on a horror library which also has sub content, very typical of the genre, although it's not the main focus of the library.


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## David Kudell (May 9, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> However lots of folks have the 8341 + 7360 setup and are quite happy.


This is my exact setup and I couldn’t be happier. It’s astonishing how much difference the GLM correction makes. And the sub is a must in my opinion…I tried without it and there wasn’t enough EQ correction points in the lows with only the 8341s to make an accurate low frequency response. But adding the sub allows for much more fine correction below 100Hz and that helped tame some really narrow spikes in the bass ranges that I got from my less than optimal room.


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## Allen Constantine (May 9, 2022)

The S2V's are incredible! I would highly recommend them. If you also put a Sub8 to them, that's all you'll need. 

I've tried the S3H and it's something wrong about them - the stereo imaging is weird. Listened to them in a very well treated studio and it's odd that you have a feeling that they have like an aura of sound, as in the sound is not coming directly from the speakers. 

Hope it helps.


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## charlieclouser (May 10, 2022)

David Kudell said:


> This is my exact setup and I couldn’t be happier. It’s astonishing how much difference the GLM correction makes. And the sub is a must in my opinion…I tried without it and there wasn’t enough EQ correction points in the lows with only the 8341s to make an accurate low frequency response. But adding the sub allows for much more fine correction below 100Hz and that helped tame some really narrow spikes in the bass ranges that I got from my less than optimal room.


Glad you're as impressed by the GLM rigs as I was. The demo GLM-corrected 8351b+7370 rig I had in here was way better than my old Dynaudio AIRs or the new Dynaudio Core59+CoreSub...

BUT.

Then I installed SonarWorks, and used their calibrated mic to calibrate both Dynaudio rigs. BIG difference, and actually better than the GLM-only setup. The GLM rig did no correction above 2kHz, but SonarWorks did, and it really fixed up the tops on the Dynaudio's. The AIRs were still a little boxy and dull compared to the Cores, but that's no surprise as they are going on 20 years old at this point. Older design, maybe worn-out tweeters, and only 2-way compared to the Core 3-ways. Plus the AirBase2 sub is two 10", while the CoreSub is four 9".

So, with SonarWorks the Dynaudio Cores took the lead. Then I broke out the MiniDSP calibrated mic and got to work with REW. I shot analysis curves for every permutation of Air15 with AirBase2, and also with an AirBase12 I had lying around, with every possible bass management mode and crossover frequency, moved the sub to various positions (under the desk vs against the back wall, centered vs offset, etc.).

Then I shot every permutation of settings and sub placements with the Core setup. (there are fewer permutations for crossover etc. than the AIRs though). What did I learn?

My room has a massive (18db or more) null at 50hz at my listening position, and an almost as large peak at 100hz at the same spot. Like, 50hz disappears completely and totally! While 100hz is hooting like a mofo. And I have all the GIK 8" thick bass traps and Tri-Traps that will fit in the room, both corners floor to ceiling, the entire front wall, and a 4' x 10' ceding cloud.

So what's next? PSI Audio AVAA active bass traps, and maybe Trinnov. Trying to scrounge up a demo set of the AVAA traps, not sure if there are demo rigs of Trinnov.

I learned more in one day of shooting the room with REW than I have in 35 years of making records and scores. Can't believe I never bothered until now, I've always just thrown the speakers on the meter bridge and gotten to work. Not that it's been a handicap, most of my 1990s records were mixed on NS-10s with an Alesis (!!!) power amp and a consumer Yamaha sub. On the SonarWorks corrected Core rig, those tracks sound just like I remembered (okay, a bit better) but just like I originally intended. No surprises, no tragedies.

So what's the upshot? In my opinion, SonarWorks is actually better than GLM. I hate the workflow, but the sonic result was undeniable. Since it only operates below 2kHz, GLM couldn't fix a bit of "clank" in the midrange and a lack of "fizz" in the highs, both of which are the fault of my room and not the speakers - but Sonarworks handled all that with ease, mid and high were smooth and non-fatiguing.

As much as I dislike the workflow of SonarWorks, I may have worked out a solution for using it in Logic without needing to bypass it for printing and bouncing. You need a lot of busses + outputs, but I have that. Still need to verify that it works the way I think it will though... (I'll basically be moving all of my print busses over to the right, and creating a new set of monitor-only busses that the print busses will feed. Basically a second set of "composite mix" busses in my current template, but these only feed the speakers and not the print rig. Just need to verify that Bounce-In-Place doesn't pass through SonarWorks in that configuration...)

Anyway, I can only imagine that Trinnov would be even better than SonarWorks - for $8k and up it better be!

But first, those AVAA active bass traps need to get in here so I can see if they live up to the hype. If they can tame that 50hz vs 100hz battle going on with my room modes, I'll be way ahead of where I was.

Of course, the GLM rig plus SonarWorks or Trinnov might let the Genelecs pull into the lead, and then I'd have that glorious point-source imaging, which the Dynaudio rigs both lack.

It's all clear as mud, right? When this is all over, maybe my audio won't be...


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## ChrisHarrison (May 10, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> Glad you're as impressed by the GLM rigs as I was. The demo GLM-corrected 8351b+7370 rig I had in here was way better than my old Dynaudio AIRs or the new Dynaudio Core59+CoreSub...
> 
> BUT.
> 
> ...


Mr. Clouser! I’m honored to get your opinion. You are a master of the low end growl! Do you write for the sub as an extension of the 2 main speakers with a high pass on the speakers or do you write for the .1 lfe as it’s own channel? Does the latency caused by the sonar works bother you? I’ve my rig down to 32 samples, and now with batch freezing in cubendo, I can write for a very hungry plug-in and still get that near zero latency thing. Im also using an mpc on stand-alone to be able to play beats etc. without latency, so the idea of introducing latency seems annoying lol. But maybe worth it so I don’t blow out sub 100 hz and not even realize it.


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## ChrisHarrison (May 10, 2022)

David Kudell said:


> This is my exact setup and I couldn’t be happier. It’s astonishing how much difference the GLM correction makes. And the sub is a must in my opinion…I tried without it and there wasn’t enough EQ correction points in the lows with only the 8341s to make an accurate low frequency response. But adding the sub allows for much more fine correction below 100Hz and that helped tame some really narrow spikes in the bass ranges that I got from my less than optimal room.


Thank you Dave! Love your work


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## TonalDynamics (May 10, 2022)

Had my Presonus Spectre S8s for about 5 months and couldn't be happier with them.

Coaxial design (Tweeter horn in the center of woofer)

Massive sweetspot, moving your head doesn't change much in the mixing position.

You can add the Tremblor sub as well if you want(I didn't), but the S8s have _obscenely_ good stereo imaging, which is what you want when working with orchestral.

I can pick out specific instruments _within_ a prerecorded section sample, and that suits me just fine

In the $1500-2500 range, I'd say they're hard to beat.


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## charlieclouser (May 10, 2022)

ChrisHarrison said:


> Mr. Clouser! I’m honored to get your opinion. You are a master of the low end growl! Do you write for the sub as an extension of the 2 main speakers with a high pass on the speakers or do you write for the .1 lfe as it’s own channel? Does the latency caused by the sonar works bother you? I’ve my rig down to 32 samples, and now with batch freezing in cubendo, I can write for a very hungry plug-in and still get that near zero latency thing. Im also using an mpc on stand-alone to be able to play beats etc. without latency, so the idea of introducing latency seems annoying lol. But maybe worth it so I don’t blow out sub 100 hz and not even realize it.


I always use bass management, so the sub is an extension of the main speakers, and although I do print a separate LFE channel in my surround stems, on my older Dynaudio AIR system that discrete channel is summed with the LF information extracted from the other channels and sent to the sub. I use the Crystal Method song "Holy Arp" as a bass reference track. I've heard it at the studio of the guy who made it (with a big old Blue Sky 2.1 rig with Trinnov) and I've heard his Atmos mix of that song in the Genelec immersive demo setup at NAMM shows, so I think I know how it could / should sound. It's got a nice combination of subs vs normal bass, long and short low frequency sounds at the same time, tight and loose snares, crispy highs, etc. If I can crank that song and it sounds turbo then the speakers are doing well.

But I very rarely put elements into that discrete LFE channel, and many mixers on the dub stage have told me not to bother, that if they want to pump some music element into the theater LFE channel they can just send it from the appropriate stem. This is not a problem if you give them lots of stems, so they're not pushing the entire drum stem into the LFE, but instead can find a stem that only contains the kick or the sub booms or whatever element they're looking for, all by itself on its own stem. 

In my first projects I only gave three stems - drums, electronics, orch. So in that layout I would send just one drum element to that stem's LFE channel. Then, for many projects, I delivered 8 stems, but that's still not really enough separation for them to just pump an entire stem to the LFE, so I still would send an individual element to that stem's LFE channel.

Now that many (most? all?) projects are being mixed for immersive formats like Atmos, the mixers tell me to please NOT give them Atmos or immersive stems as it makes more work for them to un-wrap and re-wrap things. So I'm re-thinking how to lay out stems, and I may switch to a simpler layout where each stem is in quad (front pair / rear pair), but give them more stems (16 maybe?) so the elements are more isolated and separated. Then if they want something to hit the LFE it's more likely to be isolated on its own stem.

But some mixers have told me that they never send music elements to the theater LFE, and they only use it for FX. This is disappointing, and maybe it's not the case on big projects like Dune or something, where they have the time to really pick things apart - but I'm usually working on projects where they need to mix a feature in a week or a tv episode in 2-3 days. So I don't have a single, solid plan... yet.

The idea of the 40ms additional latency of SonarWorks or Trinnov really DOES bother me... *in theory* - and although I'm only getting started with it, in practice it's not as bad as I thought. You can switch SonarWorks into low / zero latency modes that don't use linear-phase filters, but you still get decent correction and many folks might not even notice a huge difference in the sound compared to linear-phase mode. For finger-drumming 40ms is too much for me, but for "squishy" sounds it's not a problem so far. So if I'm playing a critical instrument I'd just switch SonarWorks to zero-latency mode temporarily. Fortunately it seems that the CPU load of SonarWorks is negligible, it's only the additional latency that's an issue. I am usually on 128 buffer, but I'm on an old Mac Pro cylinder 12-core, hopefully when I switch to a new Apple Silicon Mac Pro I can go lower.

Not sure if Trinnov has a similar low/zero latency mode, but I think it does. I do know a couple folks who have Trinnov and they love it. Of course it's $$$ so that's a consideration... more investigation is still needed.

I do like the Genelec GLM rig but it wasn't as "throaty" or "growly" as the Dynaudio's that I am so accustomed to. It may be more accurate and precise, but it felt lighter / thinner somehow compared to Dynaudio+SonarWorks. Not a life-changing amount, but I really like the non-fatiguing aspect of the Dynaudio and the "fun" sound of a throaty system - feels closer to big ugly mains playing at a quiet volume, instead of the clinical / analytical sound of Genelec. Once I get the low end room modes sorted better (hopefully the AVAA will help) then I will be in a better position to decide. 

But I didn't have time to try Genelec+SonarWorks before the GLM demo rig had to be returned. That, or Genelec+Trinnov might be the best of all worlds.


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## ChrisHarrison (May 10, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> I always use bass management, so the sub is an extension of the main speakers, and although I do print a separate LFE channel in my surround stems, on my older Dynaudio AIR system that discrete channel is summed with the LF information extracted from the other channels and sent to the sub. I use the Crystal Method song "Holy Arp" as a bass reference track. I've heard it at the studio of the guy who made it (with a big old Blue Sky 2.1 rig with Trinnov) and I've heard his Atmos mix of that song in the Genelec immersive demo setup at NAMM shows, so I think I know how it could / should sound. It's got a nice combination of subs vs normal bass, long and short low frequency sounds at the same time, tight and loose snares, crispy highs, etc. If I can crank that song and it sounds turbo then the speakers are doing well.
> 
> But I very rarely put elements into that discrete LFE channel, and many mixers on the dub stage have told me not to bother, that if they want to pump some music element into the theater LFE channel they can just send it from the appropriate stem. This is not a problem if you give them lots of stems, so they're not pushing the entire drum stem into the LFE, but instead can find a stem that only contains the kick or the sub booms or whatever element they're looking for, all by itself on its own stem.
> 
> ...


Thank you maestro!!!


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## David Kudell (May 10, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> Glad you're as impressed by the GLM rigs as I was. The demo GLM-corrected 8351b+7370 rig I had in here was way better than my old Dynaudio AIRs or the new Dynaudio Core59+CoreSub...
> 
> BUT.
> 
> ...


I’m surprised you’re getting bass issues - I was there when I filmed your interview with Orchestral Tools, and if I recall it was concrete or block walls. I thought wood walls were much worse, but it goes to show how tough it is to tame the lows.

As for Genelec, it’d be lovely if GLM could be upgraded via firmware to support over 2Khz. The good news for me is my homemade sound panels help out for the highs, while the lows are so hard to fix. 

Glad you found a way to make Sonarworks a workable solution. You know, the Slate VSX headphones do something similar but their plugin has a way of turning the processing off when you go to render stems…I wish Sonarworks could implement that feature.


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## Pier (May 10, 2022)

David Kudell said:


> I’m surprised you’re getting bass issues - I was there when I filmed your interview with Orchestral Tools, and if I recall it was concrete or block walls. I thought wood walls were much worse, but it goes to show how tough it is to tame the lows.


Most materials are really bad below 100Hz at absorbing sound.

This is the chart for porous *acoustic* concrete:






Source

Due to its high mass, concrete is really good for blocking sound in/out though.


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## Nimrod7 (May 10, 2022)

Also a big fan of the 8341 + 7360 combo. I just upgraded last year, and I was debating between 8351s without the sub, or 8341+7360. I am so glad that I went with the smaller monitors and the sub. It made a huge difference. 

My room is treated, but with GLM it just got to another level. It‘s a small studio 3.5m x 5m. 

I am thinking late in the year or early next year to upgrade to an Atmos setup, by adding some 8330As, but the biggest hike will probably be upgrading the Grace m905 I use now to an m908.


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## charlieclouser (May 10, 2022)

David Kudell said:


> I’m surprised you’re getting bass issues - I was there when I filmed your interview with Orchestral Tools, and if I recall it was concrete or block walls. I thought wood walls were much worse, but it goes to show how tough it is to tame the lows.
> 
> As for Genelec, it’d be lovely if GLM could be upgraded via firmware to support over 2Khz. The good news for me is my homemade sound panels help out for the highs, while the lows are so hard to fix.
> 
> Glad you found a way to make Sonarworks a workable solution. You know, the Slate VSX headphones do something similar but their plugin has a way of turning the processing off when you go to render stems…I wish Sonarworks could implement that feature.


Well, in my room (16' wide x 24' deep) the right wall is filled concrete block with an alcove starting halfway back, the left wall is floor-to-ceiling glass, the front wall is stick-built with drywall, and the rear wall is stick-built with drywall with an entry door. So, in terms of materials it's only half-decent I guess. An acoustician told me that the glass needed to go, ideally the stick-built walls had to go as well. He recommended replacing those three walls with concrete block, if possible angling them at 15 degrees or more, and maybe integrating a huge bass trap in the front wall, basically turning it into a bunker / dungeon! Yeahhhh... not doing that. In terms of room modes, it's mostly the shape, not the materials, that's causing the nulls. 

As for Genelec, while GLM is an awesome workflow, it's not one of those "infinite band eq" type deals like SonarWorks, it's basically a whole bunch (ten? I forget) of three-parameter eq bands - frequency, gain, and bandwidth. So it can't create crazy curves that exactly match the correction needed. That's one thing.

You can manually edit GLM's correction eq, so even though it doesn't automatically create correction curves above 2k, you usually have some unused bands after it's done dealing with 0-2k, and you can then manually edit the curves to correct for stuff above 2k, but again, not with the crazy, asymmetrical curves that are sometimes needed. I tried this but as you can imagine it's not precision surgery like SonarWorks - and it's manual, not automatic. There may be some logic to why Genelec uses fairly basic parametric eq instead of the crazy-curve mode from SonarWorks, like phase linearity or pre-ringing or some other rocket science stuff, I am willing to admit that if it's the case. But I was shocked at how listenable SonarWorks is - it didn't sound phase-y or weird to me at all - so far. The jury is still out but their opinion is trending towards acquittal!

It seems to me that DSP-based room correction technology is still a work in progress, so I'm not committed to one approach over another yet. Now that Merging Anubis audio interfaces can download SonarWorks correction curves into the DSP on the audio interface itself and apply those curves to specific hardware outputs that drive your speakers (but only in stereo, arrrggh!), and the Jones-Scanlon monitors can do the same right inside the speaker, it makes me think that the dam may be about to break. How long before tons of speakers and audio interfaces have a "SonarWorks Inside!" sticker on the front? Hopefully not long.

I kind of feel the same about Trinnov. It's obviously a much more advanced system, with additional capabilities relating to phase correction, multiple listening positions, and support for immersive formats, but a whole rack-mount PC just to drive the speakers? Come on man. It's only an i3 or something in there, we can move that CPU load over to dedicated DSP in the interface / monitors, or just run it on the host nowadays.

Maybe the end-game is that such tech winds up integrated directly into the DAW, where it can auto-bypass during bounces, switch to different monitor and room emulations (NS-10, cellphone speaker, car stereo, etc.) and include headphone correction and other goodies right at the source. But having it inside the audio interface and / or speakers would be just fine by me. Fingers crossed.

I have a long history of holding out as long as I can, then finally sighing and hitting "add to cart", only for a better solution / version to be released a week later. I'm convinced the NAMM black helicopters are monitoring my PayPal activity, and some guy is on a walkie-talkie saying, "He just bought version one, you are clear to release version two!"

So my journey from "GLM is amazing" to "SonarWorks is AMAZING!" to "[insert product name here] is *AmAZiNG*!!!" continues.


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## David Kudell (May 11, 2022)

Thanks Charlie, I always learn so much from your posts. Great to be up to speed on what's happening in the room correction space, and looking forward to following future developments. Hopefully the perfect solution comes out and you manage to buy it then and not just before!


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## colony nofi (May 11, 2022)

David Kudell said:


> Thanks Charlie, I always learn so much from your posts. Great to be up to speed on what's happening in the room correction space, and looking forward to following future developments. Hopefully the perfect solution comes out and you manage to buy it then and not just before!


Perfect solution? Trinnov is the closest I've heard... and even then, it benefits from having a well treated room in the first place.


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## walkaschaos (May 11, 2022)

Genelec not applying room equalization on higher frequencies is intentional, not in needing of an upgrade. I'm not an acoustician but it's something about how higher frequencies have more reflections so EQ is less effective there. Not saying it's right or wrong but there is some reasoning behind it!


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## chillbot (May 11, 2022)

colony nofi said:


> Trinnov is the closest I've heard... and even then, it benefits from having a well treated room in the first place.


Trinnov has really done wonders for me... even in my shitty-treated room!


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## greggybud (May 11, 2022)

muk said:


> Only Sonarworks seems to be known, and Dirac Live is clearly better. At least for me it is.


I'll assume you are referring to Sonarworks Reference 4 or now what is known as Sound ID Reference?

What did you find better in Dirac? Or what did you find bad in Sonarworks? And can you give your basic room specifications, treatment, and type monitors?

I have been pretty happy with Sonarworks, however I have really nothing to compare it to...other than no Sonarworks.


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## charlieclouser (May 11, 2022)

walkaschaos said:


> Genelec not applying room equalization on higher frequencies is intentional, not in needing of an upgrade. I'm not an acoustician but it's something about how higher frequencies have more reflections so EQ is less effective there. Not saying it's right or wrong but there is some reasoning behind it!


Yeah, I get that. The Genelec product specialist instructed me to make manual adjustments to the higher frequencies to tailor it to my room, which I did. Still, the "crazy curve" eq from SonarWorks got in there tighter than the three-parameter eq in GLM, and I like the results better.


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## KEM (May 12, 2022)

Pier said:


> BTW I started this thread a while ago about subs on media composer studios
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have a JBL sub, I think a sub is extremely important


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## muk (May 12, 2022)

greggybud said:


> I'll assume you are referring to Sonarworks Reference 4 or now what is known as Sound ID Reference?
> 
> What did you find better in Dirac? Or what did you find bad in Sonarworks? And can you give your basic room specifications, treatment, and type monitors?
> 
> I have been pretty happy with Sonarworks, however I have really nothing to compare it to...other than no Sonarworks.


The comparison I did some time ago. It was Sonarworks 2 then, if I remember correctly. I compared the three programs that had free trials back then: Dirac, Sonarworks, and an open source solution called 'Python Open Room Correction' (PORC).

My room is not treated, which is problematic. I am minimizing the the problem by using nearfield speakers. Geithain RL 906 in my case.

What I like much better with Dirac was the correction of the stage. I assume it's because of corrections in the time domain. In any case, for the eq part of the correction, all three solutions did well for me. However, Dirac and PORC also led to a clearer phantom center, and improved the audibility of stage placement of instruments. Without the filter, instruments were blurring into each other. Kind of like with an aquarel. With Dirac and PORC, this got corrected. Not so with Sonarworks. That's why I decided to go with PORC in the end.

Dirac Live offers a free 14-day trial. So you can do a comparison with your own setup if you want to.


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## AdamKmusic (May 12, 2022)

I upgraded my monitors this year, from the Yamaha HS80ms to the Focal twins. Loving them so far, very clean sounding! Made me realise that the HS80ms were somewhat a little muddy in the mid/highs.


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## David Kudell (May 17, 2022)

Speaking of Genelec GLM, a new update 4.2 just came out, and has some nifty features! Here's a screenshot of the first few (there are lots more). Looking forward to trying it out.


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## jamie8 (May 17, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> Yeah, I get that. The Genelec product specialist instructed me to make manual adjustments to the higher frequencies to tailor it to my room, which I did. Still, the "crazy curve" eq from SonarWorks got in there tighter than the three-parameter eq in GLM, and I like the results better.


Yeah I just got the Sonar works and it is amazing ,put them on an old pair of Hafler TRM8 in a semi treated room and it was like lifting a blanket off them !.
awesome


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## charlieclouser (May 17, 2022)

jamie8 said:


> Yeah I just got the Sonar works and it is amazing ,put them on an old pair of Hafler TRM8 in a semi treated room and it was like lifting a blanket off them !.
> awesome


I know, right? Pretty amazing. Although the workflow of having it as a plugin on the computer is a bit wonky. Needs to be built into the speakers themselves. If I were a speaker manufacturer I'd be moving as fast as possible towards integrating SonarWorks right into the on-board DSP (or reverse-engineering basically the same thing).

Can't believe it's taking so long. And I can't figure out why some folks are against the idea of having an eq on their speakers; every set of big mains I've worked on back in the eighties had a White Instruments graphic eq strapped across the inputs to tune them to the room.


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## aaronventure (May 17, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> If I were a speaker manufacturer I'd be moving as fast as possible towards integrating SonarWorks right into the on-board DSP (or reverse-engineering basically the same thing).


ADAM's upcoming A Series refresh.

Also Dutch&Dutch 8c's latest software update allows uploading a REW curve directly into them.


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## method1 (May 17, 2022)

Good old helmholz resonators can make a massive difference, if you have the room for them, easy & cheap to make, much cheaper than a trinnov  as pointed out earlier in the thread, panels will do nothing sub 100hz. I'm not opposed to a bit of eq but treating the actual problem is preferable, and then the DSP stuff will work even better.


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## charlieclouser (May 17, 2022)

aaronventure said:


> ADAM's upcoming A Series refresh.
> 
> Also Dutch&Dutch 8c's latest software update allows uploading a REW curve directly into them.


That's good news... let the floodgates be opened! 

There is one UK boutique speaker maker listed on the SonarWorks website that has "SonarWorks Inside", so hopefully that trend continues...


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## method1 (May 17, 2022)

My room before (blue) & after (orange) helmholz.


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## aaronventure (May 17, 2022)

method1 said:


> My room before (blue) & after (orange) helmholz.


That's nice! Got any pictures of the thing?

What's up with the correction in the mids in the orange curve?


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## method1 (May 17, 2022)

aaronventure said:


> That's nice! Got any pictures of the thing?
> 
> What's up with the correction in the mids in the orange curve?



Not much to look at, I have the same in both corners in the rear of the room, and some others behind the fabric wall.

Overall response is +- 6db which IMO is pretty solid for a home (and even some pro) studios! I think +-3db is considered excellent.


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## jamie8 (May 17, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> I know, right? Pretty amazing. Although the workflow of having it as a plugin on the computer is a bit wonky. Needs to be built into the speakers themselves. If I were a speaker manufacturer I'd be moving as fast as possible towards integrating SonarWorks right into the on-board DSP (or reverse-engineering basically the same thing).
> 
> Can't believe it's taking so long. And I can't figure out why some folks are against the idea of having an eq on their speakers; every set of big mains I've worked on back in the eighties had a White Instruments graphic eq strapped across the inputs to tune them to the room.


I agree with you 100% I cannot believe that major manufacturers haven’t jumped on this band wagon, it’s a no brainer.
especially for those of us who may not have perfect ears any help is a godsend and using a product like this even if your speakers are absolutely perfect which I guarantee you they are not.
also your ears are not perfect , how hard can it be to add, sample your room apply the correction and ad to the memory onboard the speakers, I think latency and phase wise this might be better as well. And also a switch to disable the correction.


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## aaronventure (May 17, 2022)

I do wonder if anyone tried using the REW generated wav file with an IR loader hooked between their interface out and their monitors.


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## charlieclouser (May 17, 2022)

aaronventure said:


> I do wonder if anyone tried using the REW generated wav file with an IR loader hooked between their interface out and their monitors.


Yes, the user @liquidlino did exactly that, and created a thread detailing the process:






DIY Digital Room Correction


I'm on a bit of a roll at the moment getting to grips with mixing, tonal balance etc. One issue I had was that I'd realised my monitors/room, being completely untreated, was a terrible reference and mixes never ever translated. I figured out how to apply reference EQ to my two headphones (HD650...




vi-control.net


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## liquidlino (May 17, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> Yes, the user @liquidlino did exactly that, and created a thread detailing the process:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the mention. I'm still refining this process... I've been playing with the target profile settings in REW quite a bit... the roll off rate and start points for HF and LF, the target db level, the max boosts allowed etc, it makes a massive difference to the perceived tonal balance (and thus the translation of mixes). I'll update that thread in due course when I think I've got a formula that works decently...

There really isn't many decent threads/sites with info about using REW for studio environments (probably cos most just buy soundid or similar and be done with it). I love experimenting with technology though, and learning how it all works under the hood. Undoubtedly I've spent more time (and therefore money) on REW than if I'd just bought soundid or Genelec built in room correction etc.


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## aaronventure (May 17, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> Yes, the user @liquidlino did exactly that, and created a thread detailing the process:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, that works of course, I was thinking specifically about your workflow issue where the plugin needs to be loaded or the systemwide app used, so I meant a hardware impulse loader. Set it between your interface and your monitors, and forget about it.


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## charlieclouser (May 17, 2022)

aaronventure said:


> Yeah, that works of course, I was thinking specifically about your workflow issue where the plugin needs to be loaded or the systemwide app used, so I meant a hardware impulse loader. Set it between your interface and your monitors, and forget about it.


Well, the only IR loader hardware units I've found seem to be guitar pedals aimed at loading cabinet IR files for emulating different speakers in an amp sim rig.

But then there's this thing:



https://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series/ddrc-88d



Which is made by the same folks that make the recommended USB mic used with REW (I have one). These boxes seem to be stand-alone speaker management DSP units for home theater, and the one I've linked is 8x8 with AES in+out. It appears to be able to load curves created with Dirac (I think?) which is very similar to SonarWorks, and thus seems to be like a cheaper / cruder version of Trinnov. But they make no mention of throughput latency anywhere that I could find in the documentation, and the user interface looks very Windows95-ish. So until someone posts a detailed how-to I'm not going to be the one to risk $949 on it....

I've looked into "drive rack" type of boxes, some of which have AutoCal type of features, but they all seem aimed at sound reinforcement and have weird i/o layouts, like 3-in / 6-out etc., and none that I've seen actually load correction curves, they all seem to have "normal" three-parameter eq bands, snd are therefore more similar to GLM than SonarWorks. 

Then of course there's Trinnov.... which is basically a whole rackmounted PC with an embedded RME card and an even fancier SonarWorks built in, and can correct phase and does all sorts of other fancy stuff. Latency seems to be roughly the same as SonarWorks, with a low-latency mode as well, and it does have an optional volume remote that is very attractive.... but the price.... oof.


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## Jdiggity1 (May 17, 2022)

@Lawson. Are you still using your MiniDSP / Dirac solution? Any comments on latency, etc.?


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## Lawson. (May 17, 2022)

Jdiggity1 said:


> @Lawson. Are you still using your MiniDSP / Dirac solution? Any comments on latency, etc.?


Yeah, I'm using the miniDSP 2x4 HD + Dirac Live with my Amphion ONE18s. Dirac corrects for amplitude, phase, and time, which is a bit more than Sonarworks which only does amplitude as far as I'm aware. It works perfectly fine as a budget Trinnov, but it does have about 25ms of latency if I remember correctly. The higher-end models halve it down to 13ms or so, though. I run at a buffer of 2048 so it's basically not noticeable whatsoever, and when watching videos I don't notice any weird sync issues happening. Somehow I've been able to get my semi-treated room (not full coverage but front corners floor to ceiling along with first reflection panels on side, back, and ceiling) with GIK 244s to be roughly +/- 5 db from 45hz-17khz minus my stupid SBIR at 88hz and another dumb null I gotta figure out at 616hz. That being said, I only have Dirac doing frequency correction from 40-1000hz to avoid excess comb filtering. You'll notice on the graphs tho that it is still messing with the high end a little and I'm unsure why. I've attached a waterfall graph of my room (with Dirac on, and yes, I need more bass traps), along with a basic frequency response that is very zoomed out and smoothed to look pretty LOL. No it isn't perfect but I'm still tweaking things.

If anybody wants to send me a Trinnov (or DEQX, for that matter), I'd be happy to do a comparison! Actually, while we're at it, I'd be happy to see how Dirac Live fairs up against/together with some Kii THREEs and/or D&D 8Cs. 

EDIT: I've also added a waterfall and frequency response without Dirac for proper comparison, along with an overlay of both zoomed in. For the record, the null at 616hz and some of that extra high end funniness wasn't there previous tests, and I'm wondering if it was an inconsistency in measurement position. Oh well, I'm sure swapping to TWO18s instead will fix that.


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## charlieclouser (May 17, 2022)

Lawson. said:


> EDIT: I've also added a waterfall and frequency response without Dirac for proper comparison, along with an overlay of both zoomed in. For the record, the null at 616hz and some of that extra high end funniness wasn't there previous, and I'm wondering if it was an inconsistency in measurement position. Oh well, I'm sure swapping to TWO18s instead will fix that.


Thanks for chiming in @Lawson. those results look impressive. And if the latency can get down to 13ms then that's certainly workable. Great to know there's some hardware solutions nipping at the heels of Trinnov....


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## Jack Weaver (May 17, 2022)

Since it's become a topic of discussion... might as well have some actual Trinnov real-world results:
My room before, after, and the filter necessary to get that 'after' result.

And for full-range fans, the second one is 20Hz-20KHz.

.


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## charlieclouser (May 17, 2022)

Jack Weaver said:


> Since it's become a topic of discussion... might as well have some actual Trinnov real-world results:
> My room before, after, and the filter necessary to get that 'after' result.
> 
> And for full-range fans, the second one is 20Hz-20KHz.
> ...


NICE.

Which Trinnov hardware unit do you have? Surround or stereo-only? Do you have the hardware remote? Is there in fact a low-latency mode? How much latency in the various modes? So many questions....


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## aaronventure (May 18, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> Well, the only IR loader hardware units I've found seem to be guitar pedals aimed at loading cabinet IR files for emulating different speakers in an amp sim rig.
> 
> But then there's this thing:
> 
> ...


Alright, alright, sure. So then what about running your entire output through another interface which is hooked to an older Mac Mini or a mini PC, which is just monitoring the input in low latency with Sonarworks plugin/convolution with REW file on? Sonarworks is proven to work and you just need to run one instance of it, that can't be CPU intensive. If you have an older computer like that and an interface lying around, worth a try. Surely gonna be much cheaper than a Trinnov.


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## Jack Weaver (May 18, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> Which Trinnov hardware unit do you have? Surround or stereo-only? Do you have the hardware remote? Is there in fact a low-latency mode? How much latency in the various modes? So many questions....


I have the DMON6, a six-channel unit. I've had it for almost 5 years. I do not have the La Remote.

Honestly, I do not know the latency time. It's not obnoxious though. Since I don't have the remote (pricey little bugger) nor am I familiar with it I attached the pic of the software GUI that comes with the unit. You can see how easy it is to bypass the processing in the unit - simply by hitting the Optimization ON/OFF big red button. I imagine that La Remote simply has a hardware button that you may dedicate to that. But you should ask them about that.

I know how important latency is to you and your creative method. You should get a box in there as soon as possible - before you spend a ton on redoing your room. See if it works for you. Then you can judge from a better vantage point what you might need to do regarding acoustics. (I believe there's still a Vintage King in LA. They sell it and have a couple guys who are quite familiar with it. I'll bet they'll let you try one.)

You already know how I feel about media creation rooms as opposed to recording studio control rooms - mainly the mix position is important whereas in a studio control room more of the room needs to be free of large problematic nodes. The Trinnov will fix any one spot in your room at a time you need with the presets that you create. 

Personally, I wouldn't cross the street without a Trinnov. Being able to totally trust the monitors is worth everything to me. I no longer have nor need a secondary set of speakers - _not counting playing thru my computer speakers._ As you know, I've sold all my hardware. Just a couple of those pieces easily paid for the Trinnov. It was a great trade-off to me.

A Trinnov is the most valuable piece of hardware that you can own.

.


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## Dietz (May 18, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> But then there's this thing:
> 
> https://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series/ddrc-88d


That's exactly what I use with great success in my own room. Like I wrote before: "Poor man's Trinnov".  The only system I don't "hear" immediately (except the Trinnov, of course).


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## charlieclouser (May 19, 2022)

Well...... shit.







Yes, that's a Trinnov screen. Still working on shooting different calibrations, etc., but so far....

....the difference is MASSIVE. This could get expensive.

- - - EDIT - - -

Still working things out, but this thing is pretty amazing. (I have an ST2-Pro on loan.) Took only minutes to set up, and calibration took so little time and was so simple that I thought I was doing it wrong or missing some steps. AES in and out, stick it in between the DAW outs and the AES inputs on the speakers, done. Yes, it is basically a 2-space rack mount PC with RME interfaces built in, and yes it does have a fan - but you can't hear the fan unless you put your ear to the top panel. In a rack it would be effectively silent.

I have A/B'd it against SonarWorks and it is completely in another league. Not even close. It's just ridiculous.

With all processing elements enabled the latency is around 18ms, which is a little much for finger-drumming but just fine for most squishy sounds - but the bypass button completely eliminates this, effectively running audio "around" the CPU to give the equivalent latency of RME TotalMix or MOTU CueMix - a few samples max. I have the Dynaudio Core rig going through the Trinnov, with my Dynaudio AIRs going direct from Logic, so I can verify that bypassing the Trinnov eliminates all latency and the two sets of speakers phase against each other. No flams.

Another big plus is that with the La Remote (which I don't have yet) that's about the same form factor as the Dynaudio Air Remote (which is visible to the right of my music keyboard in the pic), the Trinnov system becomes a full-featured high-end monitor controller, along the lines of the Grace m908 or CraneSong Avocet, which cost about the same but do not have amazing room correction built-in. You get programmable buttons (in multiple layers) that can do mutes, programmable volume levels, and all sorts of other fun stuff. So.... yeah, that's a huge plus, and I didn't realize that going in. 100 points to Gryffindor!

Just need to figure out which model to get.... god dammit.


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## KerrySmith (May 30, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> I know, right? Pretty amazing. Although the workflow of having it as a plugin on the computer is a bit wonky. Needs to be built into the speakers themselves. If I were a speaker manufacturer I'd be moving as fast as possible towards integrating SonarWorks right into the on-board DSP (or reverse-engineering basically the same thing).
> 
> Can't believe it's taking so long. And I can't figure out why some folks are against the idea of having an eq on their speakers; every set of big mains I've worked on back in the eighties had a White Instruments graphic eq strapped across the inputs to tune them to the room.


I saw the Trinnov setup you're testing, but did you see the Multichannel release from Sonarworks this week? Looks like if you have a DAD interface, you can export the profile directly into the DAs output channels. (Of course DADMan still isn't compatible with the latest Mac OS or Silicon) Exiting potential future.






Sonarworks


SoundID Reference software calibrates your speakers and studio headphones, so you can trust that every mix will translate.




www.sonarworks.com


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## charlieclouser (May 30, 2022)

KerrySmith said:


> I saw the Trinnov setup you're testing, but did you see the Multichannel release from Sonarworks this week? Looks like if you have a DAD interface, you can export the profile directly into the DAs output channels. (Of course DADMan still isn't compatible with the latest Mac OS or Silicon) Exiting potential future.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those are all great developments for sure. I'm still A-B-ing the Trinnov against the latest SonarWorks update, and I have to say the Trinnov is doing something special in terms of aligning phase, delaying certain frequencies, or whatever voodoo it's doing. It's really quite amazing, and seems to be far beyond the room-EQ-curve-matching stuff that GLM or SonarWorks does. Not surprising that it takes a whole rack mount PC to run it! If it were just room-correction then I might be less enthusiastic about Trinnov, but the monitor-control features that make it comparable to a Grace m908 or CraneSong Avocet take it to another level of usefulness for me. 

The one I am demoing is just the ST-2pro and doesn't have all the talkback / listen back stuff from the D-mon, which is the one I would get, and I don't have the La Remote, but I can see that with all that stuff in place it's a hell of a solution, and will accommodate multiple surround setups and subwoofers, allow you to use one sub with various sets of speakers, etc. Very impressive.


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## imusic (May 31, 2022)

Trinnov D-Mon and Kii3 together here, no issues here - works like a charm (have no latency problems) since it is going from the Matrix to Trinnov to the Kii´s ...


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## onnomusic (May 31, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> Not surprising that it takes a whole rack mount PC to run it!


crazy thing is its just a Intel Dual-Core 1,8 GHz with 1gb of ram though. makes you wonder why we actually need that entire thing :/


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## charlieclouser (May 31, 2022)

onnomusic said:


> crazy thing is its just a Intel Dual-Core 1,8 GHz with 1gb of ram though. makes you wonder why we actually need that entire thing :/


Isn't it just an i3 and some RME cards? The back panel looks suspiciously like a 1997 PC, although it does have HDMI out.

Don't worry, as soon as they charge my Amex card for the D-mon, that will trigger the announcements that Apple are including Trinnov tech in the CoreAudio drivers, and RME and MOTU will integrate it into the DSP on their interfaces at no charge!

Come to think of it, I think I'll wait until after NAMM to order one....


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## Fry777 (May 31, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> That's good news... let the floodgates be opened!
> 
> There is one UK boutique speaker maker listed on the SonarWorks website that has "SonarWorks Inside", so hopefully that trend continues...


For those considering Sonarworks, wouldn't it also make sense to consider this Anubis interface which accepts SW profiles directly, giving very low latencies ? The cost is of course higher compared to a normal interface but you're then free to choose any monitor you like
https://www.sonarworks.com/soundid-reference/integrations/merging-anubis


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## charlieclouser (May 31, 2022)

Fry777 said:


> For those considering Sonarworks, wouldn't it also make sense to consider this Anubis interface which accepts SW profiles directly, giving very low latencies ? The cost is of course higher compared to a normal interface but you're then free to choose any monitor you like
> https://www.sonarworks.com/soundid-reference/integrations/merging-anubis


That's the interface that a buddy has just bought but hasn't deployed yet (studio build ongoing). I believe he got Anubis + Horus to accommodate all of his gear. Last time I checked their implementation of SonarWorks was only on a single stereo pair of outputs, but maybe now that SonarWorks is multi-channel that can change, unless it was a limitation of the DSP power in Anubis. Been looking hard at the Anubis myself... top top audio quality from them.


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## JohnG (May 31, 2022)

Here's the Sound-On-Sound review of their stereo box:

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/trinnov-st2-pro


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## PaulieDC (May 31, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> Isn't it just an i3 and some RME cards? The back panel looks suspiciously like a 1997 PC, although it does have HDMI out.
> 
> Don't worry, as soon as they charge my Amex card for the D-mon, that will trigger the announcements that Apple are including Trinnov tech in the CoreAudio drivers, and RME and MOTU will integrate it into the DSP on their interfaces at no charge!
> 
> Come to think of it, I think I'll wait until after NAMM to order one....


I'm thinking the back panel is a config I've not seen before... USB 3 and HDMI along with DB25 and 15-PIN VGA in AND out. I thought at first the one might have been the DB9 game controller port which would have been the bees knees. But, if it WORKS as it states, it can have 5¼" floppy drive for all we care.


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## synthetic (Jul 6, 2022)

I'm leaning towards 8341s and checking out a pair tomorrow. I've never been a big fan of Genelecs so I want to listen for ten minutes before making a decision. I listened to the Dynaudio Atmos setup at NAMM but it didn't blow me away. (I know, it's a tradeshow, but they've never really done it for me.) Also, I like that the room DSP is built into the speakers. This seems like a good design since:

1. it's always active, I don't need a plug-in on my master buss to hear it like Roomworks. 
2. It's low-latency (?) 
3. You're not fighting the DSP built into the speaker, with a cut in the room EQ nulling a boost in the speaker's response EQ. 

The only speakers I've found that have room EQ built in are Genelec, Neumann, ADAM (A-series), and Dutch & Dutch. Dutch & Dutch are way out of my price range, Neumann apparently needs work, and ADAM doesn't have AES inputs on their monitors. That seems crazy, why force two ADDA conversions? I guess their next S-series will also have Roomworks inside, but I've had ADAMs since they came out and I'm ready for a change. 

So Genelec are on top, and they can scale up to Atmos if I totally lose my mind. Plan is 3x 8341 for LCR, then add their sub, then surrounds, then possibly height speakers if I'm not homeless by then.


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## David Kudell (Jul 6, 2022)

synthetic said:


> I'm leaning towards 8341s and checking out a pair tomorrow. I've never been a big fan of Genelecs so I want to listen for ten minutes before making a decision. I listened to the Dynaudio Atmos setup at NAMM but it didn't blow me away. (I know, it's a tradeshow, but they've never really done it for me.) Also, I like that the room DSP is built into the speakers. This seems like a good design since:
> 
> 1. it's always active, I don't need a plug-in on my master buss to hear it like Roomworks.
> 2. It's low-latency (?)
> ...


I love my 8341's, especially with the sub (I use a 7360).


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## synthetic (Jul 7, 2022)

Did anyone notice the difference in latency when moving from traditional monitors to ones with digital crossovers and DSP? Genelec claims 5ms latency on the 8341, which is over 200 samples at 48kHz.


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## David Kudell (Jul 7, 2022)

synthetic said:


> Did anyone notice the difference in latency when moving from traditional monitors to ones with digital crossovers and DSP? Genelec claims 5ms latency on the 8341, which is over 200 samples at 48kHz.


I haven’t noticed any latency at all. If I use my headphones and speakers at the same time, I’d hear that latency, but I don’t hear it.


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## Dom (Oct 26, 2022)

In case anybody is interested, I'm using both Trinnov and Dirac. Here are my findings.

Trinnov

D-Mon 6 in a 5.1 mix room with 3x ATC SCM50ASL (LCR), 2x ATC SCM20 (surrounds), 1x ATC SCM 01.15 subwoofer.
Trinnov is on an AES loop, via RME's TotalMix software, so the Trinnov can be totally bypassed for zero latency. 
The effect of Trinnov is truly striking. The imaging is pin sharp. In particular for surround it's almost indispensable. Only now with Trinnov, this setup sounds as it should, calibrating, aligning phase, adding subwoofer for both LFE and to reinforce the main channels, without Trinnov was extremely difficult. Initially the flat response sounded bass-light, but after adjusting the target curve all was fine.
Cons: More hardware, cabling, digital interfacing in the studio, more power draw and heat (trying to make the studio more green). I wish there was a software version, happy to pay the same as the hardware.


Dirac

In a stereo writing room with 2x ATC SCM20ASLmkii. Using the Dirac Live plugin, in a AU host, looped in via RME Totalmix, so Dirac can be completely bypassed for zero latency.
Not the striking pin-sharp effect of Trinnov, but works really well. The room sounds cleaner and more reliable now. The plugin is CPU efficient. Also applied target curve here, aprrox 2.4 dB tilt. Dirac here has a much easier task, no surround and no subwoofer, just stereo.


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