# Cinematic Studio Strings



## URL

Any thoughts about CSS?
http://www.cinematicstudioseries.com


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## Hanu_H

Wow, this was unexpected. Alex is definitely back! Also rest of the orchestra coming this year, can't wait. Strings sound great and the GUI is full of great features. I think it's time to start saving money...

-Hannes


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## Zhao Shen

What a move. CS2 is not the library I use most often anymore, but it's perhaps my most beloved (possibly becuase it was my only string library for over a year). The discount is incredibly generous for them to do.


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## Syneast

I really thought I was done buying sample libraries but this seems to me like it could be the holy grail I have been waiting for. You know, that one library that has no flaws.  I love my CS2 for it's sound and I always wished it had portamento and spiccatos. From listening to the demos and walkthroughs, this library sounds very natural and beautiful to me. It's got all the expected articulations and more, and it's got what seems to be a well thought out interface.

If the brass and woodwinds follow in the same style this may be an all-in deal for me.


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## muziksculp

Yes.. Finally something new from Alex and Team !
*
CSS*

I just got the upgrade email today, and I'm super excited about this library.

Brass, Woodwinds, Perc, Solo Strings Libraries in the future !


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## Zhao Shen

My god.  You can even hear (and see) their solo cello in action here and it sounds downright incredible. Guess holding off on solo strings is going to have to last a bit longer...


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## muziksculp

Here is the *Cinematic Studio Series PIANO* ! and at a Great Price $69

http://www.cinematicstudioseries.com/piano.html

(looks like we posted about this at the same time


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## Killiard

Boooo! I want my upgrade email  
Sounds brilliant. Can't wait to hear the rest of the orchestra.


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## tack

I got my promo email. Downloaded already. 

I don't think I'd call it an "upgrade" though. Seems like CS2 and CSS are different enough sonically to be considered different products.


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## AlexanderSchiborr

Any info on the size of the library?


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## tack

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Any info on the size of the library?


32.1GiB installed.


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## AlexanderSchiborr

tack said:


> 32.1GiB installed.


Cool, thank you.


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## dcoscina

Got my email and the meter trem strings are the clincher for me. Congrats Alex


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## muziksculp

Wow ! Some of you folks are super fast


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## tack

muziksculp said:


> Wow ! Some of you folks are super fast


I have no life.


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## muziksculp

Anyone get the PIANO library ? Size of Library ? Thoughts / feedback about it ?


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## URL

I always use CS2 when I have heavy guitars and string sound doesn't cut true. CSS sounds great!


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## Zhao Shen

muziksculp said:


> Anyone get the PIANO library ? Size of Library ? Thoughts / feedback about it ?


Yep. You get 50% off if you buy CSS, so it was a no-brainer for me too. 8GB install I believe, so library should be about 4GB. Similarly you need about 70GB space to install CSS because it has to download, extract, then delete ZIPs.


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## Baron Greuner

How much is CSS if you own CS?


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## muziksculp

Zhao Shen said:


> Yep. You get 50% off if you buy CSS, so it was a no-brainer for me too. 8GB install I believe, so library should be about 4GB. Similarly you need about 70GB space to install CSS because it has to download, extract, then delete ZIPs.



Awesome ! 

Where does it show this 50% offer on the PIANO library ? After you buy CSS ?


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## Zhao Shen

muziksculp said:


> Awesome !
> 
> Where does it show this 50% offer on the PIANO library ? After you buy CSS ?


Yeah, it pops up as an additional offer on the cart page and you can automatically add from there.


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## PeterKorcek

HI guys, do you know for how long the discount for users of CS2 is?


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## Zhao Shen

Continuata Connect downloading giving me an error, gonna have to go manual links.


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## tack

Zhao Shen said:


> Continuata Connect downloading giving me an error, gonna have to go manual links.


It did for me too. Crashes after downloading the first part every time.


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## AlexanderSchiborr

Zhao Shen said:


> Continuata Connect downloading giving me an error, gonna have to go manual links.


Continuata always gives me a major hurt in the butt..I have this time chose to download manually without trying continuata..


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## Lawson.

Connect rarely works properly for me as well...so far v3.17 seems the most stable, but I have to switch back and forth between that and v3.22 as they both will crash at different spots in the download. I usually then have to manually extract.

To stay on topic, these new strings sound really good, but so far I've just heard a couple demos. Definitely going to check out the walkthroughs.


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## RiffWraith

Gotta pile on the Continuata bandwagon here. Had major issues d/l-ing a HY product a couple of months ago. Thing that pisses me off is their total lack of support. I mean - six emails and no response? C'mon.

Sorry for the rant.... back on topic.


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## 5Lives

How does CSS sound? I've found CS2 sounds a bit "synthy" compared to the offerings from Spitfire and OT - might just be the room / reverb that's built in though.


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## muziksculp

Zhao Shen said:


> Yeah, it pops up as an additional offer on the cart page and you can automatically add from there.



Thanks for the info.


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## re-peat

tack said:


> It did for me too. Crashes after downloading the first part every time.


This is not Continuata, is it? This is Advanced Download Manager. (Or are those two different guises of the same thing?) Anyway, not experiencing any problems here. Strings are already in and the piano is now working its way inside my computer rather nicely as well.

_


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## clisma

Well, then I'm eagerly awaiting your thoughts, Piet.


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## Christof

Downloading right now, can't wait to play the strings.


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## tack

re-peat said:


> This is not Continuata, is it? This is Advanced Download Manager.


It's Continuata. The download instructions for CSS linked to the Continuata Installer for PC. For Mac, they linked to the Advanced Download Manager. I'm not sure how it's different either.


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## tack

Replying from the commercial thread:



mcalis said:


> Is there someone who has both CS2 and CSS? Does the new legato (combined with the new articulations) warrant a new purchase?


The slow legato is quite good, very lyrical. And the portamento is highly usable. And rebowing is extremely welcome. It's clear to me you'll be able to get much more expressive lines out of CSS compared to CS2. Also the measured tremolo seems to work quite well: I've been able to get much tighter and defined sound out of it than with the other libraries in my template that have measured trem.

The fake con sord is disappointing for me too. It's passable, and I've heard worse filter-based treatments, but yeah, it's not the real thing.

Is this worth the price? Bear in mind CSS has a very different sound; one should view it as an entirely different library, not just a CS2 redux. I never complained about CS2's sound, but so far I find I like CSS quite a bit more. Whether these things justify spending the money can only be a personal decision. In the hour or two I've spent with it, you are getting something rather different with CSS than with CS2.


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## Zhao Shen

Anyone having issues with legato with the vibrato fader all the way down? Sounds like there's samples missing.


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## tack

Zhao Shen said:


> Anyone having issues with legato with the vibrato fader all the way down? Sounds like there's samples missing.


Yes, I mentioned this on the commercial thread. Glad to know it's not just me. 

It appears to happen on the legato speeds above the slowest one for the given legato mode.

I don't think it's missing samples, I think it's playing the legato transition but not the sustain samples. Looks like a fairly simple programming issue that should be easy to fix.


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## Alex W

Zhao Shen said:


> Anyone having issues with legato with the vibrato fader all the way down? Sounds like there's samples missing.



Hi there, sorry about that I'll have it fixed in an update asap! What's happening is the nonvib samples aren't triggering when:

triggering a Fast legato while using Standard Legato or
triggering a Medium or Fast legato while using Advanced Legato.
For the time being, please use only the lowest legato speed while playing nonvib to avoid this issue. The speeds themselves don't actually significantly impact the sound of the legato transition while using nonvib anyway, as this is a simulated legato. Nonvib was included for use mainly at the start or the end of a passage, or to add extra expression while playing chords. Thanks for bringing it to my attention!


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## Thorsten Meyer

If you run like myself into issues where some patches and several articulations do not work as they should move the modwheel (which is normally taped as Alex knows) The Trills in Cellos, Full Ensemble, Basses, 2nd Violins and 1st Violins do not work for me at all. I did contact Alex about this issues and wait for a fix


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## kurtvanzo

Can anyone tell me how big this library is? And the piano? I can't find any info about download size or space required anywhere on their website.


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## Thorsten Meyer

Cinematic Studio Piano is 4,5 GB on disk
Cinematic Studio Strings is 34,5 GB on disk


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## Thorsten Meyer

Thorsten Meyer said:


> If you run like myself into issues where some patches and several articulations do not work as they should move the modwheel (which is normally taped as Alex knows) The Trills in Cellos, Full Ensemble, Basses, 2nd Violins and 1st Violins do not work for me at all. I did contact Alex about this issues and wait for a fix


Alex, did came back to me. For the Trills I have to play two keys at the same time, either a half or whole tone apart as written in the manual. 

The mod wheel is set to 0 by default upon loading a patch, which means the volume will be set to zero until it is moved.


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## Alex W

Thorsten Meyer said:


> If you run like myself into issues where some patches and several articulations do not work as they should move the modwheel (which is normally taped as Alex knows) The Trills in Cellos, Full Ensemble, Basses, 2nd Violins and 1st Violins do not work for me at all. I did contact Alex about this issues and wait for a fix



Hi Thorsten, the mod wheel starts at zero upon loading a patch, but if you'd prefer for it to start at full volume instead, you can save any patch after moving the mod wheel all the way up to max and it will remember this setting the next time you load it.


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## Thorsten Meyer

Alex W said:


> Hi Thorsten, the mod wheel starts at zero upon loading a patch, but if you'd prefer for it to start at full volume instead, you can save any patch after moving the mod wheel all the way up to max and it will remember this setting the next time you load it.


Thank you Alex, I will do that.

Congrats on the great new library. Really impressive.


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## dreamnight92

Are also brass and woodwinds coming out? And they will be recorded in place in the same room?
If yes, this looks awesome!!!

About demos: they sounds very nice, but they are "naked" or "dressed" with verbs and other effects?


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## Blakus

dreamnight92 said:


> Are also brass and woodwinds coming out? And they will be recorded in place in the same room?
> If yes, this looks awesome!!!
> 
> About demos: they sounds very nice, but they are "naked" or "dressed" with verbs and other effects?


Alex stated in one of his videos that all the demos are dry with no verb or effects.


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## Alex W

dreamnight92 said:


> Are also brass and woodwinds coming out? And they will be recorded in place in the same room?
> If yes, this looks awesome!!!
> 
> About demos: they sounds very nice, but they are "naked" or "dressed" with verbs and other effects?



Yep, the rest of the orchestra is on its way, and will all be recorded in position and fully balanced out-of-the-box. Glad you liked my demos - I used no reverb or eq on any of them, with just a bit of mastering compression on the tracks with other elements - drums, percussion etc - to boost the volume and gel things together as needed.


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## Sid Francis

Alex: your demos are of the very rare kind when I would buy the demos on CD for the beauty of the music alone. Finally someone who produces string demos that sound like someone is loving lush and emotional strings and not only technical specs


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## dreamnight92

Alex W said:


> Yep, the rest of the orchestra is on its way, and will all be recorded in position and fully balanced out-of-the-box. Glad you liked my demos - I used no reverb or eq on any of them, with just a bit of mastering compression on the tracks with other elements - drums, percussion etc - to boost the volume and gel things together as needed.



Thank you! Well, the sound is stunning, can't wait for the rest of the orchestra!


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## reids

Hey guys,
I'm looking for a real expressive string library that can play not only soaring and loud but also very soft, subtle strings. The 'Soaring Strings' library by Musical Sampling can play very soft and has the expressive, soaring, and sonic qualities many people find lacking in other string libraries. It's great to get news on the release of Cinematic Studio Strings and I like what I heard from the demos. Do you think CSS covers what Soaring Strings can do? Which library do you personally think would be a better purchase for expressive soaring strings capability? I don't know which I should consider getting. Thanks...


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## Jackles

I'm really impressed by everything I've heard so far. Does anyone of the new owner of that library also have Hollywood Strings ?
I've been using HS for a while now, and still impressed by what it can achieve in term of realism. But the demo I've heard are starting to convince me to give a try. It looks so playable, the way this is organized seems to be a lot more logical than HS (as good as it sounds, HS is far from being user friendly IMHO). The legato of CSS sounds really good, but I can't really tell if it is as good as the powerful patches of HS.


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## tokatila

tack said:


> It did for me too. Crashes after downloading the first part every time.



Same here (Continuata). Also manual downloading is PITA especially when you can't download many files simultaneously. Two is the maximum for me and the speed is also varying. Blaah.


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## Waywyn

just in case you guys got trouble with the Connect app, just ignore the error message and keep downloading. When it is done, just close the app and unzip the files manually, then set up the directory as almost everything too ... Instruments folder, Samples folder and the other rest. That's it!


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## synthpunk

I'm not a big C7 fan, but it does sound great.



muziksculp said:


> Here is the *Cinematic Studio Series PIANO* ! and at a Great Price $69
> 
> http://www.cinematicstudioseries.com/piano.html
> 
> (looks like we posted about this at the same time


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## JPQ

Where is audodemos i mean i bet i yest listened one of them but i make mistake and i cannot now find them?


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## tack

Replying from the commercial thread as it's gotten a bit off topic:



procreative said:


> Do you think this will also work with OT stuff as they seem to like to put what would normally be keyswitch stuff into CCs such as Legato on/off?


Not yet. Actually CSS has created a new itch for FlexRouter that I'll try to tackle this week, which is to be able to take an "keyswitch" event (note, CC, program change) and redirect to multiple events. This is to handle the cases where you have separate on/off switches for things like legato and con sord. This will merge better with my current work flow, where, for example, I have separate articulation controls for legato vs longs (non-legato), or legato con sord or longs con sord. Or even spicatto con sord.

At the moment, FlexRouter just lets you redirect a "keyswitch" to one target event (note, CC, program change).

But I mentioned it because when you redirect to a note, you can control the target velocity. This works for CS2 and CSS's velocity based keyswitching. So if you wanted FlexRouter to convert say UACC inputs to something compatible with CSS (or CS2), you could use it to translate CC32/42 (spiccato) to F0 velocity 0, or CC32/40 (staccato) to F0 velocity 65.



procreative said:


> I did look at the CC method of Keyswitching, but in Logic trying to view automation data for a non standard CC number is tedious and as far as I can tell there is no way to rename the CC lane to something obvious as it seems to default to Bank LSB.


Then you could certainly use FlexRouter to translate from your standard CC to CC58 which CSS wants to use. Unfortunately the legato and con sord toggles aren't well handled right now.


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## Ashermusic

I won't be buying this, as I don't need it, just as I did not buy CS2, because I did not need it.

BUT..... as a Logic Pro consultant I have had a number of clients over the years who did not want to deal with the resource demands and learning curve of Hollywood Strings and either did not like the Kirk Hunter strings or wanted additional ones and I have always recommended CS2 because it sounds great out of the box, is easy to use, not too demanding of resources, and does not require deep understanding of what real string players do to be effective.

I think this will prove to be another one like that that I will be recommending based on what I am hearing and their track record.. Congrats Alex.


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## lucor

CS2 and CSS show that the mastermind behind it all is a real expert in arranging and composing for strings. I hope Alex has similar expertise for Brass and Woodwinds.


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## AlexanderSchiborr

Love the Strings so far. Actually I am working on a digital Mockup featuring the washington Post March by Sousa. Still in an early version worklow (started today) but here you can here first time the strings in an marching orchestral context:


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## Zhao Shen

Alex W said:


> Hi there, sorry about that I'll have it fixed in an update asap! What's happening is the nonvib samples aren't triggering when:
> 
> triggering a Fast legato while using Standard Legato or
> triggering a Medium or Fast legato while using Advanced Legato.
> For the time being, please use only the lowest legato speed while playing nonvib to avoid this issue. The speeds themselves don't actually significantly impact the sound of the legato transition while using nonvib anyway, as this is a simulated legato. Nonvib was included for use mainly at the start or the end of a passage, or to add extra expression while playing chords. Thanks for bringing it to my attention!


Thanks Alex - your library is fantastic and I can't wait for the rest of the series!


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## dcoscina

It's hard to beat CS2 for their beauty and light demands on computer resources. Great sound with minimal effort


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## erica-grace

May I ask a question?

Two members have posted examples from the midifile (that I guess is available from the CS site?), and then there is the example from the CS video. The beginning legato part of members' examples sound pretty bad - very synthy and lifeless, but the example from the CS video sounds wonderful and alive. Why is this?


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## Rob Elliott

Waywyn said:


> just in case you guys got trouble with the Connect app, just ignore the error message and keep downloading. When it is done, just close the app and unzip the files manually, then set up the directory as almost everything too ... Instruments folder, Samples folder and the other rest. That's it!


Exactly what I did. Works fine. Part 009 was courrupt on DL from Connect - but simple to grab that manual DL unzip - good to go.


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## Cat

Is there any information on the size of the strings ensemble (number of players)?


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## AlexanderSchiborr

Cat said:


> Is there any information on the size of the strings ensemble (number of players)?


10/7/7/6/5


erica-grace said:


> May I ask a question?
> Two members have posted examples from the midifile (that I guess is available from the CS site?), and then there is the example from the CS video. The beginning legato part of members' examples sound pretty bad - very synthy and lifeless, but the example from the CS video sounds wonderful and alive. Why is this?


Sure. Incorrect Tempo Map.


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## Baron Greuner

I like the sound of this one but won't be getting it for the time being. I have CS2 and quite a few string libraries that are big sounding. For anyone wanting a good sound and needing strings, this is as good as any.


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## Guenter Hirscher

tack said:


> Replying from the commercial thread as it's gotten a bit off topic:
> 
> 
> Not yet. Actually CSS has created a new itch for FlexRouter that I'll try to tackle this week, which is to be able to take an "keyswitch" event (note, CC, program change) and redirect to multiple events. This is to handle the cases where you have separate on/off switches for things like legato and con sord. This will merge better with my current work flow, where, for example, I have separate articulation controls for legato vs longs (non-legato), or legato con sord or longs con sord. Or even spicatto con sord.
> 
> 
> At the moment, FlexRouter just lets you redirect a "keyswitch" to one target event (note, CC, program change).
> 
> But I mentioned it because when you redirect to a note, you can control the target velocity. This works for CS2 and CSS's velocity based keyswitching. So if you wanted FlexRouter to convert say UACC inputs to something compatible with CSS (or CS2), you could use it to translate CC32/42 (spiccato) to F0 velocity 0, or CC32/40 (staccato) to F0 velocity 65.
> 
> 
> Then you could certainly use FlexRouter to translate from your standard CC to CC58 which CSS wants to use. Unfortunately the legato and con sord toggles aren't well handled right now.



You can change the keyswitch CC (default CC58) to an other CC on the setting page. Watch the videos on their Homepage.


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## tack

Guenter Hirscher said:


> You can change the keyswitch CC (default CC58) to an other CC on the setting page. Watch the videos on their Homepage.


Yes but you can't change the meaning of the CC values. So while you could reassign it to CC32, that doesn't make it UACC compliant. I kept it on CC58 because moving it to 32 would only be confusing.


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## cadenzajon

I would love a comparison between CSS and Berlin Strings... they share many characteristics, but I'm particularly interested to know if CSS's spic-overlay marcato can hold up against BS's accented note entrances. I like the cinematic sound, but tend to write in a more classical idiom, and would love to find an alternative to Orchestral Tools (which is 1st on my wish list but lacking funds so far...)


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## Ashermusic

Two great libraries that sound nothing alike.


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## garylionelli

Strings sound great. Is there any type of vibrato control, to lessen the vibrato a little? Thanks.


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## Quasar

I purchased CS2 and really like it. Now it's not the "next great thing" anymore so I absolutely need to spend another $279 to have their "best" string library... No thanks. I think I will ignore all of the hype and continue to just use what I have...


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## Ashermusic

Tugboat said:


> I purchased CS2 and really like it. Now it's not the "next great thing" anymore so I absolutely need to spend another $279 to have their "best" string library... No thanks. I think I will ignore all of the hype and continue to just use what I have...



Well it is a different size ensemble than CS2, so it is not just a matter of "next great thing" or "best." If you don't need a smaller ensemble, then that is fine.


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## Scamper

Ashermusic said:


> Well it is a different size ensemble than CS2, so it is not just a matter of "next great thing" or "best." If you don't need a smaller ensemble, then that is fine.



Is there any information about the size of CSS? Couldn't find it.


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## Thorsten Meyer

Scamper said:


> Is there any information about the size of CSS? Couldn't find it.


Cinematic Studio Strings is 34,5 GB on disk
or did you mean the player: 10/7/7/6/5.


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## Scamper

Thorsten Meyer said:


> Cinematic Studio Strings is 34,5 GB on disk
> or did you mean the player: 10/7/7/6/5.


 Sorry, it was ensemble size. So, thanks.


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## psmk31452

Trouble with Continuata (download)...I see where Alex said to ignore the message and continue with the download.
I've done that and I'm not sure whether I need to extract all of the rar files 1 by 1 and then build the CSS folder with Documents, Instruments, Samples, etc.

Or just begin with CSS_001 and the rest of the rar files will extract and then manually build the folder.

I've made several attempts at this, so I'd prefer that I only do this 1 more time.

Thank you,

Paul

(Yes, I did contact support, but I suspect that they are quite busy and not sure when they might get back to me.)


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## phil_wc

psmk31452 said:


> Trouble with Continuata (download)...I see where Alex said to ignore the message and continue with the download.
> I've done that and I'm not sure whether I need to extract all of the rar files 1 by 1 and then build the CSS folder with Documents, Instruments, Samples, etc.
> 
> Or just begin with CSS_001 and the rest of the rar files will extract and then manually build the folder.
> 
> I've made several attempts at this, so I'd prefer that I only do this 1 more time.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Paul
> 
> (Yes, I did contact support, but I suspect that they are quite busy and not sure when they might get back to me.)


Yes you do have to extract seperate. I use pc so I can select all and extract to same folder in one click. Not sure if Mac can do.


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## cadenzajon

Ashermusic said:


> Two great libraries that sound nothing alike.


What kind of factors would lead me to one vs. the other? What kind of music are they best suited for? Their demos are so different from each other that I'm having a hard time making an "apples to apples" comparison to discern what would work best for me.


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## feck

Bought before even listening. I'm happy to support a company that clearly has passion and talent.


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## Ashermusic

cadenzajon said:


> What kind of factors would lead me to one vs. the other? What kind of music are they best suited for? Their demos are so different from each other that I'm having a hard time making an "apples to apples" comparison to discern what would work best for me.




It isn't easy. Certainly, libraries like Berlin Strings and Hollywood Strings are more dry and have more articulations. Certainly CS 2 is more lush and easier to use, as it is only 1 patch per instrument. And this one, while a smaller section, seems to share all that.

They are all good but they are all different. Ditto for Spitfire, VSL, Kirk Hunter, LASS, and CineSamples offerings, just to name a few. It is hard to buy a bad ones nowadays.

You have to factor in:
1. How powerful is my system?
2. How complex is the music I (mostly) want to write?
3. Do I lean to smaller more intimate stuff or bigger and more lush?
4. How well do I know what real string players do, or aspire to know?
5. How patient am I with entering and editing cc data etc.?
6. How much am I willing to spend?

If your main goal is to buy a relatively inexpensive library and simply load a patch with all the basic articulations and have it sound great with relatively little fuss or bother, it is hard to beat CS 2or possibly this newer one, although I think Kirk Hunter's Concert Strings 3 is also a contender for that. If you aspire to, "more", (not being condescending here to anyone) then another choice may be better.

There is no easy answer.


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## chemie262

comparison between CSS and Berlin Strings:


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## psmk31452

phil_wc said:


> Yes you do have to extract seperate. I use pc so I can select all and extract to same folder in one click. Not sure if Mac can do.



Thanks so much, "phil_wc".

You helped me solve the problem. 

Although one of the rar files was corrupt...but being I had downloaded so many times, I just substituted one of the other (same) rar files and extracted that one into the same directory.

All is well now, though.

Thank you again for your assistance.

Paul


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## N.Caffrey

Could anyone post also a demo of the piano? I heard the ones on the website but I'd like to hear some more


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## reids

Can someone do demo comparisons between CSS and 'Soaring Strings' library? It would be great to hear them against each other...


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## tack

chemie262 said:


> comparison between CSS and Berlin Strings:


Is this the same MIDI, or has it been custom tailored for each library? There's quite a lot more of that modwheel sucking/pumping effect with Berlin than I'd have expected. (At least would have expected from demos -- I don't own it.) Did you compose this first with CSS and then feed the same MIDI directly into BST?


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## Lawson.

tack said:


> Is this the same MIDI, or has it been custom tailored for each library? There's quite a lot more of that modwheel sucking/pumping effect with Berlin than I'd have expected. (At least would have expected from demos -- I don't own it.) Did you compose this first with CSS and then feed the same MIDI directly into BST?



I own Berlin Strings and they definitely do not sound like that. If @chemie262 wants to give out the MIDI file, I'd be happy to make BST sound how they normally do.


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## thesteelydane

Guys and gals, can we stop calling it a "Hollywood Sound", when it's clearly a glorious Australian sound And what a sound it is, some amazing players in Australia these days! Now I just wish they would let me buy it, but it seems the site doesn't like the fact that I live in Vietnam, no matter how I try to pay....


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## 5Lives

Am I the only one that prefers the more defined sound of Berlin Strings? They're close to the same size, but maybe the default room settings on CSS just seems to wash everything out into a lush pad sound. I found the same thing with CS2.


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## C-Wave

chemie262 said:


> comparison between CSS and Berlin Strings:



I for one did NOT like what you did with Berlin Strings. I own them and I know that they don't sound nowhere near like this. Did you actually hear it before publishing?


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## MrCambiata

Berlin strings do sound bad in this comparison so I wish someone would post another example of how the two compare.


----------



## Saxer

@chemie262: In your example BS sound like running through VSS? At least they lost their natural high end.


----------



## Jackles

It sounds as if the dynamic controls the whole ensemble. And the curve seems a bit off, especially at the beginning.
If he actually used the exact same MIDI element for both library, then CSS deals a lot better with messy programming.


----------



## C-Wave

Jackles said:


> It sounds as if the dynamic controls the whole ensemble. And the curve seems a bit off, especially at the beginning.
> If he actually used the exact same MIDI element for both library, then CSS deals a lot better with messy programming.


Now that is an idea worth pondering about, and I am actually watching this thread for such an insight. But I am afraid we need a pro.. so definitely not me


----------



## chemie262

Hi, it is of course possible to optimize the BS. But I used it as the CSS out of the box with no reverb or other effects. I add the midi.


----------



## Carles

Grabbing a given midifile properly expressed for one library and plug another library won't ever work well.
The way to go if you want to compare libraries is what Blakus did time ago with some string libraries where every library was played and expressed according his knowledge on every one and their response and of course being honest enough as per trying to do the best you can with every library.
This sort of "plug and play" tests can be more misleading than not.
IMO the only way to know how any library actually performs is using it yourself.


----------



## Jackles

Carles said:


> IMO the only way to know how any library actually performs is using it yourself.



Couldn't agree more, that's why the EW Cloud Composer is such a great idea. I wish I could try every library before I pay full price, as it is quit an investment most of the time.

Having a listen to pretty much every demos of CSS (official and unofficial), a feeling of distinct sound character is emerging. I might be wrong but, it seems that, in the futur, we're gonna recognize every track made with that library.
Is it good or bad, I don't know.


----------



## D-Mott

Carles said:


> Grabbing a given midifile properly expressed for one library and plug another library won't ever work well.
> The way to go if you want to compare libraries is what Blakus did time ago with some string libraries where every library was played and expressed according his knowledge on every one and their response and of course being honest enough as per trying to do the best you can with every library.
> This sort of "plug and play" tests can be more misleading than not.
> IMO the only way to know how any library actually performs is using it yourself.




While I do agree, I can still get an idea of the sound when it is the same MIDI file. In fact, what those 2 MIDI files showed to me is that one clearly works better out of the box. It seems as though Berlin would need more work. Even if the MIDI files are the same, it shouldn't make the other library sound "bad", but maybe just a little louder or softer. I do not see why you would get those weird transitions that Berlin Strings had, unless he wasn't using the right patches?

Tone wise to me, CSS has all the mids. Berlin has a smiley face, but I am not smiling when I hear it :D. To my tastes and ears CS, CSS and HS have the mid range that most string libs on the market don't. They seem to fill the hole.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

C-Wave said:


> I for one did NOT like what you did with Berlin Strings. I own them and I know that they don't sound nowhere near like this. Did you actually hear it before publishing?


That happens when you just place the same midi data from the demo in a midi track with an instance of Berlin Strings. Because Berlin Strings has different dynamic layers so in that case it starts to sound shaky, which isn´t at all an issue with berlin Strings at all. Sometimes such things can work (I mean the replacement with same Dynamic curves) but often it doesn´t. I don´t get the people sometimes (not speaking of you) why they don´t work on that. Like the other guy with his Comparison videos who never used the Modwheel.


----------



## Saxer

D-Mott said:


> It seems as though Berlin would need more work. Even if the MIDI files are the same, it shouldn't make the other library sound "bad", but maybe just a little louder or softer.


How much work you have to do depends on the MIDI file. If you create a MIDI file using BST as your starting library it will sound good with BST but not with CSS or others. Same vice versa. Every library is a different instrument. Not just louder and softer, they got totally different approaches for note attacks and releases, dynamic curves and vibrato. You just can't play an instrument without hearing it.


----------



## chemie262

I could not use the midi file of CSS with BS. In this case you would hardly hear anything and it sounds even more terrible than my comparison. What I can say so far, that CSS works really well out of the box with no tweaking. BS needs more tuning.


----------



## Carles

D-Mott said:


> it shouldn't make the other library sound "bad", but maybe just a little louder or softer


No really, there are other things to consider than just loudness.
Let's say that the articulation you are using has some embedded expression (even if subtle) where the attack is softer, then grows a bit and decreases after. Then if you play a single note it sounds "better" than another library that has a flat response as the latter would sound more lifeless obviously.
But what happen if you interrupt the climax of that embedded expression to pass to next note? you get the so called "sucking effect" while you won't get it with the lifeless one.
The CC data needed for the "self expressed" one has to be way different to the flatter one. For the former you would need to "kill" the interrupted climax by decreasing volume/dynamic to create the illusion that the climax was happening before. For the flatter instead you have to create the climax as it never existed before.
The CC data from one can result fatal to other. The data from the "expressive" one (exaggeratedly low to compensate the growing climax) would kill the end of the flatter too prematurely, while the data from the flatter would exaggerate too much the already embedded expression.
All depends on the nature of each library.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

chemie262 said:


> I could not use the midi file of CSS with BS. In this case you would hardly hear anything and it sounds even more terrible than my comparison. What I can say so far, that CSS works really well out of the box with no tweaking. BS needs more tuning.


And what did you do at 4 seconds for instance. It sounds like you flipped the modwheel up and down. Such things also happen when you don´t cut dynamic curves correctly when there is an overlapping of them. Either what that is, BS can sound much better.


----------



## Lawson.

chemie262 said:


> Hi, it is of course possible to optimize the BS. But I used it as the CSS out of the box with no reverb or other effects. I add the midi.



This is what Berlin Strings sounds like (please pardon the Soundcloud compression):



[Note: I did this in about 30 minutes at like 12:30AM so I don't know how accurate it will be when I wake up tomorrow.]

[Note 2: I have received free products from Orchestral Tools.]


----------



## Vin

chemie262 said:


> comparison between CSS and Berlin Strings:




Here's a CS2 version, no EQ, reverb, MIDI tweaking or anything else - out of the box, MIX mic position:

https://clyp.it/eyoikaf2


----------



## Guffy

Jackles said:


> Having a listen to pretty much every demos of CSS (official and unofficial), a feeling of distinct sound character is emerging. I might be wrong but, it seems that, in the futur, we're gonna recognize every track made with that library.
> Is it good or bad, I don't know.


Certain other libraries have a more distinct sound, like LASS. This library sounds more like a typical mixed cinematic string section, imo.


----------



## markleake

Both the Berlin Strings (the version from Vin) and the CS2 examples don't sound as warm or full as the CSS example. I wonder if that is the natural library sound?

To me CSS sounds beautiful. It seems to manage this kind of expressive passage a lot better that the other two comparison libraries without sounding as fake/forced. The overall tone of CSS seems to be less thin sounding... to have more depth to it. Probably the lower midrange is louder?

I want to hear more examples before I shell out on this though... I have CS2 and HW Strings already.


----------



## Jackles

chemie262 said:


> comparison between CSS and Berlin Strings:




For what it's worth, I wanted to make a Hollywood Strings comparison, but I wondered if the ensemble patch from BS or CSS where legato or just a plain sustain patche.
I actually don't really know how to make a fair comparison between those libs, they seem to be so different from one another. There is no actual ensemble patch in HS, it's just a multi of different patches. I was about to divide it to multiple tracks and program theme separately, but then I realized that it was not what you did.

But I did it anyway...

So, for those interested, here's a version of the shared MIDI file through HS, with the ensemble part broken down into different legato patches (the simplest of them, no powerful patch here, just the plain legato slur lite, 6 players, 3 for the basses).
For the wet version, it's the default reverb in Play for those particular patches. I wanted to be as "out of the box" as possible.





I tried to stick to the original as much as possible, but I had to tweak the curves a tad, they were a little bit too jaggy for HS. And I guess a violin that low would have probably better be a viola (it was a violin, wasn't it ?).

Edit: I re-uploaded the audio, I got mixed up with the reverb and exported the same file twice... Now that's fixed.

Edit: I only used the main mic (Decca tree).


----------



## markleake

Thanks @Jackles. No surprise I like the HS version I guess, as I am used to that sound. I think this comparison is the most useful, as CSS and HS sound similar. CSS seems to be lacking a bit of the top end detail that HS has, which may be a shortcoming.


----------



## Scamper

Even if it's not the most usable comparison, I made one with SF Sable just for fun and because I like comparisons.

https://clyp.it/x5y5kmp0


----------



## dreamnight92

After all these comparison I'm a little surprised about berlin strings, seems not to have the same "full sound" that have CSS...also as an owner of HS I'm quite surprised to see how it still sounds good, especially because I always had some troubles programming this library. 

CSS is very dark in the sound, this is the first thing I noticed listening to the demos...it has somehow "a vintage fashion"...but I think that with an harmonics exciter and maybe some EQing the sound would be brillant as other strings libs.


----------



## D-Mott

Ok, very interesting comparisons. For me CSS and CS2 are clear winners with that passage. I am a HS user and while I love the sound, for me when bringing all the sections together it just doesn't glue the way I want. It is clear in the example that Jackles posted. Good sound, but the chords don't "growl" and glue nicely. I always find HS to be rather on the tuney side, as well as extremely thick sounding that sometimes the vibrato is just a blur. Finally, the violas piss me off.

Still the Berlin Strings one sounded sterile to me. The transitions still have that bumping, sucking issue.


----------



## Polarity

if I have time this evening I will be glad to try the midifile with Cinestrings, LASS Lite and maybe Albione One and Metropolis 1... trying to optimise the esecution (the dynamic at least) for every library and not just playing it as it is.
I'll be glad to hear someone posting the same melody/part with Soaring Strings and NI Symphony Series Strings...
anyone?


----------



## Jackles

D-Mott said:


> The transitions still have that bumping, sucking issue.



I'm sure this pumping effect is due to the programming. The CC curves were a bit extreme inside the MIDI file, and on the ensemble patch it might be even more obvious.

I'm so agreeing with you about the vibrato. I like it better in CSS, it's clearer, more defined, I can actually hear the waving motion of the sound. In HS it's just a blur, as you said, that's the right word.
But the overall sound quality is better with HS IMHO. Much brighter and detailed, and that's just with one mic (the main mic, I forgot to mention it).


----------



## Naoki Ohmori

markleake said:


> Thanks @Jackles. No surprise I like the HS version I guess, as I am used to that sound. I think this comparison is the most useful, as CSS and HS sound similar. CSS seems to be lacking a bit of the top end detail that HS has, which may be a shortcoming.



Me too. 
I felt the top end of CSS is subdued in a good or bad sense and was wondering why nobody mentioned it.


----------



## D-Mott

Hey Jackles

I do agree on the quality, but I think it's because CSS is darker. It would be good to hear just the close mics in action with CSS for the same passage.


----------



## Erik

My two cents with Dimension Strings (8/6/5/6/4), not too much swells here, it often sounds a bit overdone to my ears.


----------



## muk

Another one with Dimension Strings. Slightly different setup than Eriks:

https://clyp.it/vinalc1b

Ideally I should have played it in anew, but I simply adjusted the cc1 curves to save on time. If not musically, at least it gives an idea of the tone of my setup.


----------



## Hanu_H

Listening the comparisons...I think out of the box CSS sounds really good even compared to other more expensive libraries. I think the sound is most appealing from all the posted demos here, but I also know that many of the libraries can sound better when EQ and right reverb is used. But definitely nice library out of the box and so easy interface. I also think that CSS can sound better than the demos if treated right.

-Hannes


----------



## Lassi Tani

Polarity said:


> if I have time this evening I will be glad to try the midifile with Cinestrings, LASS Lite and maybe Albione One and Metropolis 1... trying to optimise the esecution (the dynamic at least) for every library and not just playing it as it is.
> I'll be glad to hear someone posting the same melody/part with Soaring Strings and NI Symphony Series Strings...
> anyone?



Tested Soaring Strings. Violins 1 Legato for the melody and Ensemble sustain for the background strings.



Used Spaces for Reverb. Sorry if I changed the CC too much. I took only the midi notes, changed them a bit for Soaring Strings and then went with feeling.


----------



## chemie262

as someone asked to use the violas instead of violins I add an additional CSS


----------



## theXbucket

i think i prefer css over all of the other examples. the dark sound works quite well for my taste. bought it but had not the time to play with it. hopefully this weekend. what i like most is the easy setup. you can control so much with a single kontaktpatch whereas you need lots of patches for HS.


----------



## D-Mott

chemie262 said:


> as someone asked to use the violas instead of violins I add an additional CSS




I think I prefer the violas. Sounds nice.


----------



## reids

sekkosiki said:


> Tested Soaring Strings. Violins 1 Legato for the melody and Ensemble sustain for the background strings.
> 
> 
> 
> Used Spaces for Reverb. Sorry if I changed the CC too much. I took only the midi notes, changed them a bit for Soaring Strings and then went with feeling.




Thanks sekkosiki for the Soaring Strings comparison a/b you posted. So which sound does each of you generally prefer between Cinematic Studio Strings vs Soaring Strings?...post which string library you like better below in the comments. Also, anymore demos from sekkosiki would be greatly appreciated since you have the library. Thanks


----------



## MrCambiata

CSS and HS sound best to me for this kind of music, very warm and full. BS a close second, a little thin. DS not enough emotion to my taste.


----------



## zeng

Hanu_H said:


> Listening the comparisons...I think out of the box CSS sounds really good even compared to other more expensive libraries. I think the sound is most appealing from all the posted demos here, but I also know that many of the libraries can sound better when EQ and right reverb is used. But definitely nice library out of the box and so easy interface. I also think that CSS can sound better than the demos if treated right.
> 
> -Hannes


Hollywood Strings Diamond is $100 cheaper than CSS and it is a more detailed and good sounding library I think.


----------



## chemie262

For me CSS transfers even more emotions than HS and it is much easier to get good results. Number 3 in this comparison is SS, which is also easy to use with a good sound.


----------



## tabulius

I would be interested of hearing more user demos and first tests with the library. Official demos are great but I always enjoy listening other composers using the patches.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

tabulius said:


> I would be interested of hearing more user demos and first tests with the library. Official demos are great but I always enjoy listening other composers using the patches.


I did a marching mockup (see member compositions) which is maybe not that typical use of CSS, but there you can see the Vi in a context with other libraries.


----------



## Vik

Jackles said:


> I'm sure this pumping effect is due to the programming.


I just opened the MIDI file, and one of the regions are called "BS Whole Ensemble Sustains Soft". This is a Berlin Strings preset with a very slow attack.


----------



## jamwerks

So much of the sound depends on the mic positions used. CSS does sound good overall, and has impressive fast legato. BST (examples I've heard elsewhere), in an ensemble situation doesn't sound as "large" to my ears. I can hear that the group is small (6 or 7(?) players for the V1).

HS imo has a large and detailed sound (I use close + mains full up). And layering in either a soloist or small ground (Sable) also sound very good.


----------



## Hanu_H

zeng said:


> Hollywood Strings Diamond is $100 cheaper than CSS and it is a more detailed and good sounding library I think.


Yeah, at the moment. Definitely not when it was released. Now when they have got their money back already, they can sell it really cheap. I also wouldn't say it is more detailed, there is things that CSS has with the new programming that HS does not. It's also pain in the ass to work with single patches without good keyswitch system. And the sound is really subjective, some like it better, some don't.

-Hannes


----------



## tabulius

Hanu_H said:


> Yeah, at the moment. Definitely not when it was released. Now when they have got their money back already, they can sell it really cheap. I also wouldn't say it is more detailed, there is things that CSS has with the new programming that HS does not. It's also pain in the ass to work with single patches without good keyswitch system. And the sound is really subjective, some like it better, some don't.
> 
> -Hannes



They sell the upgrades from Gold to Diamond really cheap nowdays, I checked it and in Europe strings costs only 105 EUR to upgrade.

This is an off topic, but I might get the upgrades as well but EW webpage says: "License Only. This product is not available for download." So how will I get the Diamond files?!? This is a bit confusing.

But the sound of CSS is really nice so I also pulled the trigger and I'm downloading the library now.


----------



## MarcelM

tabulius said:


> They sell the upgrades from Gold to Diamond really cheap nowdays, I checked it and in Europe strings costs only 105 EUR to upgrade.
> 
> This is an off topic, but I might get the upgrades as well but EW webpage says: "License Only. This product is not available for download." So how will I get the Diamond files?!? This is a bit confusing.
> 
> But the sound of CSS is really nice so I also pulled the trigger and I'm downloading the library now.



you have to buy the external drive from east west which costs 99 dollars. also hollywood strings diamond needs really good hardware to run. an ssd and much ram is important here.

besides that, hollywood strings is good but needs more programming compared to other librarys to sound good.


----------



## D-Mott

Ok. I have a new test that maybe some kind CSS user could try replicate this short line :D. It's beautiful and I want to see how close CSS can get to it. Or if any other library users want to chime in, all are welcome.

This is cut from a Thomas Newman track called Ghosts


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Hey Folks,
I thought to play around with the measured trems a bit because we heard so many comparison regarding sustained lyrical phrases, so I would be interested how such a section sounds with other libraries, I could provide the midi data and tempo map if anyone is interested. The tempomap wass chosen here all over the place to see how the library reacts to such a stress.


----------



## Christof

I did a test piece as well, but in this one I used con sardine only:


----------



## prodigalson

Christof said:


> I did a test piece as well, but in this one I used con sardine only:




man, i love that con sardine articulation. silky smooth but sometimes a little fishy.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

prodigalson said:


> man, i love that con sardine articulation. silky smooth but sometimes a little fishy.


Con Sardine? I like fish too! :D Joke aside, sounds good!


----------



## jacobthestupendous

As with pizza, if a library holds up con sardines, it holds up con anything.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

jacobthestupendous said:


> As with pizza, if a library holds up con sardines, it holds up con anything.



That´s good, at least we haven´t lost our humor for quite a bit in world of insanity.


----------



## Jackles

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Hey Folks,
> I thought to play around with the measured trems a bit because we heard so many comparison regarding sustained lyrical phrases, so I would be interested how such a section sounds with other libraries, I could provide the midi data and tempo map if anyone is interested. The tempo map was chosen here all over the place to see how the library reacts to such a stress.




I could do a HS version, I'm also curious to know how it goes.
Could you post your MIDI file and tempo map ?


----------



## Christof

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Con Sardine? I like fish too! :D Joke aside, sounds good!


Damned auto correct


----------



## muziksculp

Christof said:


> I did a test piece as well, but in this one I used con sardine only:




Beautiful Sounding Track with the Sardines  

Thanks for sharing ! 

I will be purchasing CSS today. Loving what I hear so far. 

Would also love to hear a trailer style fast tempo track, using lots of short articulations of CSS. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## D-Mott

Yeah Chistof, that track is really good. Did you use any vibrato crossfading in that track?


----------



## Baron Greuner

Nice sardines.


----------



## Christof

D-Mott said:


> Yeah Chistof, that track is really good. Did you use any vibrato crossfading in that track?


Just a little at one chord, the vibrato crossfades are buggy yet (in legato mode), but Alex told us that this issue may be solved with the next update.


----------



## midiman

Christof said:


> I did a test piece as well, but in this one I used con sardine only:




Great example of how good CSS can sound. The moment at 57" sounds great with the cello melodic line. I may need to get CSS, even though I have most of the other available libraries in the market. CSS seems to have a nice glue, that makes it seem as one group in one room kind of sound. Liking that very much.


----------



## midiman

Sardines with glue, is a recipe for success it seems.


----------



## dreamnight92

Christof said:


> I did a test piece as well, but in this one I used con sardine only:




Great work!


----------



## Lassi Tani

prodigalson said:


> man, i love that con sardine articulation. silky smooth but sometimes a little fishy.



Laugh of the day because of the con sardine :D, but seriously your demo sounds great! Great mix too.



reids said:


> Thanks sekkosiki for the Soaring Strings comparison a/b you posted. So which sound does each of you generally prefer between Cinematic Studio Strings vs Soaring Strings?...post which string library you like better below in the comments. Also, anymore demos from sekkosiki would be greatly appreciated since you have the library. Thanks



You're welcome, though for this kind of music, I prefer CSS. Soaring Strings work excellent for dramatic passages, and its vibrato is quite expressive. It's not for every situations, and I think CSS is more all-round string library. But it doesn't hurt to have them all :D


----------



## Polarity

sekkosiki said:


> Tested Soaring Strings. Violins 1 Legato for the melody and Ensemble sustain for the background strings.
> 
> 
> 
> Used Spaces for Reverb. Sorry if I changed the CC too much. I took only the midi notes, changed them a bit for Soaring Strings and then went with feeling.



Ouch! is it Soaring Strings so redundant full of high frequencies like that?
Compared to the other CSS demo it seems like not having a mid body...


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

Congrats Alex!
I love what I hear: you are very talented!
(and those strings shall reside in my template...)


----------



## Andrajas

How are the shorts? Are they aggressive and do they cut through in the mix?


----------



## Symfoniq

I will definitely be picking this up. It appears (sounds) as though Alex has raised the bar once again. Cinematic Strings 2 taught me to appreciate the benefits of a library that is easy to use while still sounding great. After acquiring it, I just didn't want to use my more complicated string libraries anymore. I can't wait for the rest of the Cinematic Studio orchestra to arrive.


----------



## Zhao Shen

Andrajas said:


> How are the shorts? Are they aggressive and do they cut through in the mix?


Aside from the legato, which I can't seem to stop praising (maybe Alex should start paying me soon), the shorts are the area of greatest improvement over CS2. Spiccato, staccatissimo, staccato, all there, and all much more defined than the CS2 shorts, which were a bit too lush.


----------



## prodigalson

Here's a quick pass at the Stoic theme from Shawshank Redemption with CSS. The legatos are fantastic.



Here is the same thing with Berlin Strings with about the same amount of attention paid to editing etc. Still more work to be done...


----------



## chemie262

This has a couple of articulations including shorts. I did not use any EQ. Just a little compression and reverb.


----------



## JoeBarlow

As everyone else has had a go putting that midi through some other string libraries, I thought I would chip in. 


Cinestrings, no reverb/eq or any of that business. 

Overall I think CSS sounds excellent, definitely high on the 'to buy' list


----------



## dgzebe

*@http://vi-control.net/community/threads/cinematic-studio-strings.54192/members/alexanderschiborr.9496/ (AlexanderSchiborr)*

Whipped one up way too fast because you got me curious about that sound. It's nowhere near edited enough to taste but I have to run so I'm posting for you anyway. Cheers.


----------



## rottoy

dgzebe said:


> *@http://vi-control.net/community/threads/cinematic-studio-strings.54192/members/alexanderschiborr.9496/ (AlexanderSchiborr)*
> 
> Whipped one up way too fast because you got me curious about that sound. It's nowhere near edited enough to qualify but I have to run so I'm posting for you anyway. Cheers.



Road to Perdition! Nice! Would love more Newman mockups on here.


----------



## Steve Martin

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Hey Folks,
> I thought to play around with the measured trems a bit because we heard so many comparison regarding sustained lyrical phrases, so I would be interested how such a section sounds with other libraries, I could provide the midi data and tempo map if anyone is interested. The tempomap wass chosen here all over the place to see how the library reacts to such a stress.



Great Example there Alexander - the measured tremolo sounds awesome. Love the music you created! Just perfect for the tremolo demo. Thanks for sharing this. 
Steve


----------



## Steve Martin

Christof said:


> I did a test piece as well, but in this one I used con sardine only:



Hi Christof,

the music here that you've written is beautiful! As you know I'm such a fan of your music  - thanks so much for sharing this. The cello sounds just awesome and beautiful, and the CSS strings sound is incredible and so expressive musically. They really blend superbly with the cello also. Alex has really created an awesome string library here. Thanks again for sharing Chris.

Steve


----------



## prodigalson

rottoy said:


> Road to Perdition! Nice! Would love more Newman mockups on here.



There's a cue from dhawshank redemption a few posts above


----------



## D-Mott

JoeBarlow said:


> As everyone else has had a go putting that midi through some other string libraries, I thought I would chip in.
> 
> 
> Cinestrings, no reverb/eq or any of that business.
> 
> Overall I think CSS sounds excellent, definitely high on the 'to buy' list



While I am not really a fan of the Cinestring sound, IMO I think your expression here is the most convincing so far for this little piece.


----------



## D-Mott

dgzebe said:


> *@http://vi-control.net/community/threads/cinematic-studio-strings.54192/members/alexanderschiborr.9496/ (AlexanderSchiborr)*
> 
> Whipped one up way too fast because you got me curious about that sound. It's nowhere near edited enough to taste but I have to run so I'm posting for you anyway. Cheers.




Oooo, quite nice. The only thing I'd say is that it's a little too smooth. Needs to breath more, aslo less celli :D. I think if it was mixed more it could be quite close. If you listen to the clip I posted, It's a bit more distant and less bass.


----------



## reids

sekkosiki said:


> Laugh of the day because of the con sardine :D, but seriously your demo sounds great! Great mix too.
> 
> 
> 
> You're welcome, though for this kind of music, I prefer CSS. Soaring Strings work excellent for dramatic passages, and its vibrato is quite expressive. It's not for every situations, and I think CSS is more all-round string library. But it doesn't hurt to have them all :D



Good to know that about Soaring Strings. For emotional dramatic passages, would you prefer to use Soaring Strings or CSS? CSS has more articulations and covers more styles of playing. Soaring Strings seems to specialize in the dramatic passages but I'd like to know if you prefer CSS over Soaring Strings in this area as well.

Do you think CSS can do convincing soaring and dramatic passages as well or better than Soaring Strings? I understand this is subjective but I still like to hear other people's input. I'd like to write some soaring dramatic passages and was wondering whether CSS is just as good or better in this area. Do you think CSS is enough for this style or should I consider buying both libraries? Thanks


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Jackles said:


> I could do a HS version, I'm also curious to know how it goes.
> Could you post your MIDI file and tempo map ?


Good Morning Guys, 

Sure no Problem. I have uploaded for you the midi 1 data track on the Dropbox here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/twzg7c10g1ey052/Alex_Schiborr_MS_Trems_CSS.mid?dl=0

The Midifiles includes also the tempo map, so for cubase users you have only to import the midi file. Of course you have a bit to work on the velocities as those which I did there are for Cinematic Studio Strings. If anyone experience any problems, please let me know. 

Here is the reference track again. 



Thanks and I am looking forward to hear your comparisons.


----------



## zacnelson

Christoff your wedding string composition is utterly sublime, I find it far more convincing than the official demos, I hope they choose to use it as a demo because anybody who hears this would want to purchase immediately.


----------



## mickeyl

Could you reveal which other libraries have been used in that marvellous tune?


----------



## Dirk Ehlert

Does anyone of you fine folks know, if you can adjust the velocity threshold values for the advanced legato? Thanks


----------



## Vik

de_signs said:


> Does anyone of you fine folks know, if you can adjust the velocity threshold values for the advanced legato? Thanks


I think so, check the YouTube videos...


----------



## Jackles

Here's my version of Alexandre measured tremolo test.
A couple of things first, unless I missed something, CSS can apparently go low, very low, lower that HS at least.
The previous comparison I made with CSS also had a very low violin, so I assume that's what it's made for.

First the CSS measured tremolo patch




Now the HS measured tremolo patch

This test includes :

MIDI file untouched / MIDI file edited / upped an octave / some more editing
Main mic only (Decca tree), default PLAY embedded reverb.



Edit:

Same thing, with the close mic.



- It seems that CSS uses velocity to control the dynamic of its tremolo patches, whereas HS uses CC11. That's why the first part sounds just ridiculous.

- So, in the second part, I drew the CC11 curve according to Alexandre's velocity.

- And as I said earlier, this is way too low for HS (and for the most part, for any strings IMHO), so on the third part I upped everything an octave except for the basses (that are, for being as low, surprisingly detailed on the CSS test).

- I finally tweaked every part separately to make it a little bit more alive, and reduce the pumping effect (due to the same curve applied for every part).

I hope I was faithful to what HS can do in that particular context.


----------



## dreamnight92

Beside the fact I already decided to buy this library, I'm just curious to see how it can handle a trailish ostinato strings part. 
I just prepared a quick midi for that: 
https://www.dropbox.com/s/v2s8chwh2s5bgr5/Quick midi.mid?dl=0

Can you show me how can CSS can handle this passage? 
P.S feel free to split the midi in the variuos sections, and modify the performance as the library need (I just wrote down a simply idea quickly). 
Thank you


----------



## D-Mott

Hey Jackles

The HS meas trem sounds rather funny :D. I think that using the close mics in HS for shorts makes the more defined and not blurry sounding. Do you have diamond?


----------



## Jackles

D-Mott said:


> Hey Jackles
> 
> The HS meas trem sounds rather funny :D. I think that using the close mics in HS for shorts makes the more defined and not blurry sounding. Do you have diamond?



Close mic added 
I wanted to stay out of any kind of mic setup for that test though, being as out the box as possible, and just tweak the MIDI datas.
But The sound can obviously be vastly improved by mixing the different mics with a proper reverb setup.
That would be another kind of test, where CSS would go through the same process to have a faire comparison.


----------



## rpaillot

IMO you have a problem with the HS measured trem patch. It is not supposed to sound like that at all :D


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Jackles said:


> Here's my version of Alexandre measured tremolo test.
> A couple of things first, unless I missed something, CSS can apparently go low, very low, lower that HS at least.
> The previous comparison I made with CSS also had a very low violin, so I assume that's what it's made for.
> 
> First the CSS measured tremolo patch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now the HS measured tremolo patch
> 
> This test includes :
> 
> MIDI file untouched / MIDI file edited / upped an octave / some more editing
> Main mic only (Decca tree), default PLAY embedded reverb.
> 
> 
> 
> Edit:
> 
> Same thing, with the close mic.
> 
> 
> 
> - It seems that CSS uses velocity to control the dynamic of its tremolo patches, whereas HS uses CC11. That's why the first part sounds just ridiculous.
> 
> - So, in the second part, I drew the CC11 curve according to Alexandre's velocity.
> 
> - And as I said earlier, this is way too low for HS (and for the most part, for any strings IMHO), so on the third part I upped everything an octave except for the basses (that are, for being as low, surprisingly detailed on the CSS test).
> 
> - I finally tweaked every part separately to make it a little bit more alive, and reduce the pumping effect (due to the same curve applied for every part).
> 
> I hope I was faithful to what HS can do in that particular context.




Hm, that sounds not so convincing to my ears. The mashinegun effect is also quite more present somehow. Maybe you have to fiddle around a bit more with the dynamics? I would maybe decrease the loudness between the accents quite a bit more.


----------



## D-Mott

Here is Thomas Newman Ghosts with HS

Soundcloud squashed it :s. Though it will do. I don't understand why such a simple passage is so hard to get right. I could spend a lot more hours on this.


----------



## Erik

Herewith the measured tremolo from Alexander Schiborr with Dimension Strings + Chamber Strings VSL (only vl1)


----------



## kevinlee87

Jackles said:


> Here's my version of Alexandre measured tremolo test.
> A couple of things first, unless I missed something, CSS can apparently go low, very low, lower that HS at least.
> The previous comparison I made with CSS also had a very low violin, so I assume that's what it's made for.
> 
> First the CSS measured tremolo patch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now the HS measured tremolo patch
> 
> This test includes :
> 
> MIDI file untouched / MIDI file edited / upped an octave / some more editing
> Main mic only (Decca tree), default PLAY embedded reverb.
> 
> 
> 
> Edit:
> 
> Same thing, with the close mic.
> 
> 
> 
> - It seems that CSS uses velocity to control the dynamic of its tremolo patches, whereas HS uses CC11. That's why the first part sounds just ridiculous.
> 
> - So, in the second part, I drew the CC11 curve according to Alexandre's velocity.
> 
> - And as I said earlier, this is way too low for HS (and for the most part, for any strings IMHO), so on the third part I upped everything an octave except for the basses (that are, for being as low, surprisingly detailed on the CSS test).
> 
> - I finally tweaked every part separately to make it a little bit more alive, and reduce the pumping effect (due to the same curve applied for every part).
> 
> I hope I was faithful to what HS can do in that particular context.




Real Machine gun effect


----------



## tav.one

D-Mott said:


> This is cut from a Thomas Newman track called Ghosts




/Off Topic

Thanks for posting this, I had no idea this was Thomas Newman...I became a fan of an artist named Reflekt for his song 'Need to feel loved' thinking he composed such a beautiful strings piece for the song, but he actually just used this piece, love the song anyway.


----------



## D-Mott

itstav said:


> /Off Topic
> 
> Thanks for posting this, I had no idea this was Thomas Newman...I became a fan of an artist named Reflekt for his song 'Need to feel loved' thinking he composed such a beautiful strings piece for the song, but he actually just used this piece, love the song anyway.



That 'Need to Feel Loved' is one of my fav songs man. I had no idea either until I started reading the comments on YT about how it was sampled from the Track 'Ghosts'


----------



## Nathan Allen Pinard

This library is amazing sounding. None of the demos of other libraries I've heard so far in this thread have really compared in my uh...ears. I haven't been able to purchase it yet, but the demos and "The Wedding" convinced me. That is some of the best con sargento I've ever heard in my life, and the library itself is flexible and realistic sounding. It has that throaty sound that so many movies have but not one sample library has even come close to. Century Strings is still something I'm looking forward to seeing done, but this one is definitely a must buy for me.

Also...to add. While I use Hollywood Strings now, I only used it for the sound. I see myself using this way more. Because as far as I see it, CS is a pretty darned FAIR company. They update their product, fix it, and even provide coupons for adopters of their early libraries. I'm hoping HS is not going to be used much once I get this as it sucks way too much CPU for the sound I get, and well...it's still got weird issues on some samples.

I would like to ask Christof though, did you use the modwheel for expression or a breath controller? Has anyone use a breath controller on this? I just got the TEC Breath Controller and also have had an EWI for a while.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

And here is another little piece I started, CSS String in context with other libraries. (Mockup is the same like I used for the Washington Post March):


----------



## Jackles

I'm starting to wonder if anyone who heard the machine gun effect actually went past the first part. The obvious machine gun effect is due to the MIDI file that had individual notes for each bow stroke, whereas HS's meas trems work with sustains.
I actually don't think this is that bad for the properly programmed parts (I could improve the CC curve to make every accent more defined).


----------



## Polarity

JoeBarlow said:


> As everyone else has had a go putting that midi through some other string libraries, I thought I would chip in.
> 
> 
> Cinestrings, no reverb/eq or any of that business.
> 
> Overall I think CSS sounds excellent, definitely high on the 'to buy' list



Have you put here CineStrings vibrato value at its maximum (should be CS expressive vibrato if I remind well)?
I haven't had time yet to do the test by myself. :\


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Jackles said:


> I'm starting to wonder if anyone who heard the machine gun effect actually went past the first part. The obvious machine gun effect is due to the MIDI file that had individual notes for each bow stroke, whereas HS's meas trems work with sustains.
> I actually don't think this is that bad for the properly programmed parts (I could improve the CC curve to make every accent more defined).



Yes, you are right,so as I said to you guys: You have to fiddle around. In case the Sampler works like the HS Strings you have to delete all the same notes in midi of course..hope that is clear.


----------



## JoeBarlow

Polarity said:


> Have you put here CineStrings vibrato value at its maximum (should be CS expressive vibrato if I remind well)?
> I haven't had time yet to do the test by myself. :\


Yeah I put the vibrato up, I find it strange that cinestrings doesn't have the vibrato on full by default aha!


----------



## tack

Jackles said:


> I'm starting to wonder if anyone who heard the machine gun effect actually went past the first part.


Yes I think that's what happened. I listened to the first part, laughed aloud, then read your post where you explained what you did, and then listened on as it progressively got better.


----------



## tack

Nathan Allen Pinard said:


> Has anyone use a breath controller on this?


I tried the other night. This is unsurprising for a string library: it really only works well for slower flowing passages and requires a generous attack and decay filter to prevent unrealistically abrupt dynamics changes. But with that in place, it's quite workable for that type of material. That said, I feel I have better control using the modwheel and there's no extra realism I get from the breath controller for this type of instrument.

(IIRC, the attack and decay filter option for the original TEC, which I have, requires a firmware update and you have to email support for that. But they were fast for me.)


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Erik said:


> Herewith the measured tremolo from Alexander Schiborr with Dimension Strings + Chamber Strings VSL (only vl1)



Hi, 
Thank you for the Example. Sounds definitely better than the HS String Example. 
For my taste it is a bit too clean but that´s in general with VSL things I guess. What I like on CSS is that they have this full embodiment of lows and hack down there. That makes it very lively for me.


----------



## Christof

Nathan Allen Pinard said:


> I would like to ask Christof though, did you use the modwheel for expression or a breath controller?


I never worked with a breath controller yet, maybe I should give it a try!
In my demo piece I just used mod wheel for dynamics.
I will post a demo with short articulations soon...


----------



## tabulius

Now when I finally got the library downloaded (..damn Continuata, should be called Continuenot) I did a really quick test with 1st violins only. The tone is really great, vibrato sounds natural but expressive (vibrato sometimes gets shaky, too over the top with some libraries). As many of you pointed that the tone is really full and dark, but you can use the EQ and exciter to "fix" that if you like. It sounds really close to a files you would get from a recording session - and that's a good thing. Gives you more room to make the mix yours.

Legato takes a bit time to get used to. You really have to plan ahead to time these slow legatos. I would have liked to also have some kind of a fast run patch on highest playing speed. What I found is that the Soaring strings can perform a bit faster melodies than CSS. There is the portato keyswitch that is more agile, but you have to activate that. Why not include that in legato patch as highest speed?

But I got only a moment with this library. More testing tomorrow!


----------



## Lassi Tani

reids said:


> Good to know that about Soaring Strings. For emotional dramatic passages, would you prefer to use Soaring Strings or CSS? CSS has more articulations and covers more styles of playing. Soaring Strings seems to specialize in the dramatic passages but I'd like to know if you prefer CSS over Soaring Strings in this area as well.
> 
> Do you think CSS can do convincing soaring and dramatic passages as well or better than Soaring Strings? I understand this is subjective but I still like to hear other people's input. I'd like to write some soaring dramatic passages and was wondering whether CSS is just as good or better in this area. Do you think CSS is enough for this style or should I consider buying both libraries? Thanks



Hard to say, because I don't have CCS, though would like to get it. From what I've heard CSS can do very well convincing soaring and dramatic passages. But if I would get CSS, I would still use Soaring Strings, as I would use Berlin Strings too.


----------



## chrysshawk

This is a pretty awesome thread, maybe the most useful one that has arisen on the basis on a new library. Thanks all!

One thing which really interests me is how the additional librariesmin the series will work. If they have intelligent section sizes as well as the usual Alex quality and ease of use, I wouldnt be surprised if I get the whole series for Christmas.

CSS vs Cinestrings Solo, that will also be an interesting one!


----------



## Polarity

Finally I put myself this evening trying the midifile of New Dawn by Alex WallBank with some of the string libraries I have...
in the end I put together a mix made with CineStrings Core (with vibrato put to expressivo, i.e. at maximum value), doubling the 1st Violins part with Metropolis Ark1 High Legato 8va and the Lite Ensemble part with Ark1 Low Sustains 8va. For the piano part I used The Giant.
No compression, no Reverbs added to Strings...
(rendered at 192kbps 48kHz)
Not sure I can put it on SoundCloud... can I?
https://app.box.com/s/v9hg480plflvlttv3akbb41gko90sgln

Adding OT Metropolis Ark1 Strings makes the overall sound pretty good enough... but not lush and creamy as the one I hear from Cinematic Studio Strings and then honestly I really miss that beautiful portamento of the CSS version.

I tried also the song with LASS Lite too, but it was so bad responding to the programming that I gave up and
dedicated my time to the other libs.

I think I will get CSS... perhaps not just now, but after summer vacations.
I think I need it, really!


----------



## reids

It seems CSS is really coming out on top in regards to the demos and a/b comparisons. Does anyone have any thoughts on 8Dio Century Strings? it's going to be released quite soon and didn't hear any mention of it. Its great to see all the positive feedback regarding this library. I think it might be a good idea for many of those on a budget to wait until that is released as well to truly compare these "next generation" string libraries and choose the one library they feel is appropriate for them. But don't let me stop if you if your planning to buy both...lol. Hope to hear more on Century Strings soon.

8Dio Century Strings Arcs


8dio century strings Playable Arcs


----------



## D-Mott

reids said:


> It seems CSS is really coming out on top in regards to the demos and a/b comparisons. Does anyone have any thoughts on 8Dio Century Strings? it's going to be released quite soon and didn't hear any mention of it. Its great to see all the positive feedback regarding this library. I think it might be a good idea for many of those on a budget to wait until that is released as well to truly compare these "next generation" string libraries and choose the one library they feel is appropriate for them. But don't let me stop if you if your planning to buy both...lol. Hope to hear more on Century Strings soon.
> 
> 
> 
> 8Dio Century Strings Arcs
> 
> 
> 8dio century strings Playable Arcs






wow these sound really, really good.


----------



## givemenoughrope

Yea, I'm kinda waiting on the 8dio stuff myself....not that most of these don't sound good/great in the right context.


----------



## Zhao Shen

reids said:


> It seems CSS is really coming out on top in regards to the demos and a/b comparisons. Does anyone have any thoughts on 8Dio Century Strings? it's going to be released quite soon and didn't hear any mention of it. Its great to see all the positive feedback regarding this library. I think it might be a good idea for many of those on a budget to wait until that is released as well to truly compare these "next generation" string libraries and choose the one library they feel is appropriate for them. But don't let me stop if you if your planning to buy both...lol. Hope to hear more on Century Strings soon.
> 
> 8Dio Century Strings Arcs
> 
> 
> 8dio century strings Playable Arcs



I'll probably hop in on Century Strings later down the line if 8Dio shows that they've evolved from their dump-and-never-touch-again ways. Hopefully... Fingers crossed, eh?


----------



## mickeyl

An amazing year for string lovers!


----------



## Christof

I just had fun playing around with the short articulations, incredible how versatile this library can be.


----------



## Thorsten Meyer

Christof said:


> I just had fun playing around with the short articulations, incredible how versatile this library can be.



Christof, ganz groß) Amazing


----------



## Steve Martin

Great Christof! from the start it captured my attention and carried me along to wherever it would take me. Great music! These shorts sound terrific - thank you for sharing this.

Steve


----------



## Fer

Hi folks, all the feedback about this library is awesome, and everybody here seems to like a lot this library... i like what i hear in the demos and all you are talking about versaltility, legatos etc.. but..judging by the demos, i tend to think that the tone of these strings is slightly blurry or muddy *in relation *to others; please dont interpret this comment as something negative.. the "perfect tone" is a matter of personal taste. Anybody here has the same impression? im just curious..


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Fer said:


> Hi folks, all the feedback about this library is awesome, and everybody here seems to like a lot this library... i like what i hear in the demos and all you are talking about versaltility, legatos etc.. but..judging by the demos, i tend to think that the tone of these strings is slightly blurry or muddy *in relation *to others; please dont interpret this comment as something negative.. the "perfect tone" is a matter of personal taste. Anybody here has the same impression? im just curious..



Nope, I don´t really have that impression. For me it sounds right and has the right mud what I miss in other libraries so that they sound in my opinion too sterile, but sure, it is a matter of taste AND a matter of what you need or want to create.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Christof said:


> I just had fun playing around with the short articulations, incredible how versatile this library can be.



That would be interesting to see such a track with other libraries.. Very good Job here!


----------



## Polarity

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> That would be interesting to see such a track with other libraries.. Very good Job here!


I agree.
Is my impression only or CSS shorts have a "Pirates Of Caribbean" tone...
or at least I find them perfect for that kind of scoring tracks?
Hope I explained clear enough what I mean. 

Finally, anyone with NI-AudioBro Symphony Series Strings to make a couple of compare tests?


----------



## D-Mott

Fer said:


> Hi folks, all the feedback about this library is awesome, and everybody here seems to like a lot this library... i like what i hear in the demos and all you are talking about versaltility, legatos etc.. but..judging by the demos, i tend to think that the tone of these strings is slightly blurry or muddy *in relation *to others; please dont interpret this comment as something negative.. the "perfect tone" is a matter of personal taste. Anybody here has the same impression? im just curious..



I can see what you mean, but feel like this library has filled a hole that many other string libraries have. HS for me doesn't have as big of a hole as it retains a lot of nice mids, but CSS sounds very natural. If you think it's too muddy you can EQ to taste. Reach for the smiley face EQ if you like :D. I'd prefer that hole being filled than it not being there because it's harder to put in than to take out. It's got really great mids as far as I can hear and it also sounds like the sections are playing together in the same room, as opposed to different players with different instruments on different days syndrome.

From what I hear when playing chords with other libraries I don't hear the 'growl' of the chord. I can't explain what that growl is, but I know it doesn't happen in some libs because of the tuning and also how the sections just don't talk to each other like they seem to do in CSS. The Century strings stuff sounded great also. Good growl :D

I think section sizes are a big deal too. If you listen to the detail of this library it is clearly evident that there are smaller sections recorded. This helps for less build up, wall of sound. HS has massive sections and I also find my self EQing to thin it out a little, as well as using just the close mics sometimes. Mural, another library that just TOO big and sometimes the vibrato is just not even there. It blurs into the wall of sound.


----------



## WindcryMusic

Polarity said:


> Finally, anyone with NI-AudioBro Symphony Series Strings to make a couple of compare tests?



I bought CSS yesterday (and love it so far!), and I do have SSSE as well. I can't do anything right at the moment, but if no one else beats me to it, perhaps I can put together a comparison track this weekend. But just from what my ears are telling me, CSS seems to be on another level entirely, at least for my needs.

By the way, I tried using CSS with a little bit of Albion 1 (legacy) strings blended in last night, and to my ears the results were very nice.


----------



## Christof

I am working with samples for almost 9 years now, after some time I collected many, many libraries, never used some of them because they never sounded as good as in the demos.
The main issue always is LEGATO.
But CSS is really a new level for me, at least for the way I write.
I couldn't be happier for the moment, I have a wish list for future updates of course, but you really can work professionally with what you get out of the box here.
And as a classically trained string player I think I know how strings should sound.
I am VERY curious what they may come up with their brass, woodwinds and percussion series.


----------



## Daryl

Christof, do these samples have change of bow for notes other than repetitions? They don't sound as if they do, but I just wondered whether or not people hadn't got round to using them.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Christof said:


> I am working with samples for almost 9 years now, after some time I collected many, many libraries, never used some of them because they never sounded as good as in the demos.
> The main issue always is LEGATO.
> But CSS is really a new level for me, at least for the way I write.
> I couldn't be happier for the moment, I have a wish list for future updates of course, but you really can work professionally with what you get out of the box here.
> And as a classically trained string player I think I know how strings should sound.
> I am VERY curious what they may come up with their brass, woodwinds and percussion series.



Christof, would it be possible for you to provide the midi data for the guys here, maybe some would do some comparrisons with other libraries? Thank you.


----------



## Killiard

Polarity said:


> Is my impression only or CSS shorts have a "Pirates Of Caribbean" tone...



That's so weird! I was playing around with CSS earlier today and having never bothered to learn it, I suddenly played a couple of chords thinking "ah that sound like Pirates" and within a second I was playing _that_ theme


----------



## Christof

Daryl said:


> Christof, do these samples have change of bow for notes other than repetitions? They don't sound as if they do, but I just wondered whether or not people hadn't got round to using them.


Can you say it more precisely?
CSS does bow change when you play the same note again (with the sus pedal down)


----------



## Christof

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Christof, would it be possible for you to provide the midi data for the guys here, maybe some would do some comparrisons with other libraries? Thank you.


Sure, I can provide the midi data and the logic project as well (good for the meter changes).


----------



## Daryl

Christof said:


> Can you say it more precisely?
> CSS does bow change when you play the same note again (with the sus pedal down)


What about when I want to change bow when it's not the same note. As you're a string player, I know that you don't only change bow when the note is the same.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Christof said:


> Sure, I can provide the midi data and the logic project as well (good for the meter changes).


Thats very cool, Thank you. Btw: Just in general also the other posts: In my opinion those shorts in the library (but not only the shorts) are by far the best I have heard so far in String Sampling. Also with Track Christof, of course it is very well written, but apart from that: It is the first library which has something that sounds more real to me than any others have.


----------



## Christof

I don't think that CSS has a bow change system like Hollywood strings have, but this is nothing I would miss.The speed of the legato is very easy to adjust (velocity based), at the highest velocity (around 125-127) you even have a harder attack.


----------



## Daryl

Christof said:


> I don't think that CSS has a bow change system like Hollywood strings have, but this is nothing I would miss.The speed of the legato is very easy to adjust (velocity based), at the highest velocity (around 125-127) you even have a harder attack.


OK, thanks. That's the bit that always fails for me in the other libraries, and I was wondering whether or not this one had solved it. It's not the attack that I need, it's the transition, which is every bit as important as the slur transition, IMO.


----------



## Christof

Daryl said:


> OK, thanks. That's the bit that always fails for me in the other libraries, and I was wondering whether or not this one had solved it. It's not the attack that I need, it's the transition, which is every bit as important as the slur transition, IMO.


This is very useful to watch:


----------



## Christof

Here is my Logic project for "The Robber CSS":
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43286649/the%20robber%20CSS.zip
This includes all tempo and meter changes.
If you want the midi only:Basic tempo is 168, the end tremolo has around 95, but you won't be happy with the meter changes as they change almost every bar (4/4-7/8-4/4-6/8 etc)
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43286649/the%20robber%20CSS.mid


----------



## Daryl

Yes. I saw that video, hence the question.


----------



## kfirpr

For ones who have the library, do you think it is a "must have" library if I got HS, ALB1+3, Soaring Strings etc.. is it sound more authentic then its competitors?


----------



## Christof

Yes.


----------



## Ashermusic

So Christof, if you were to only have to live with a single string library, this would be it?


----------



## milesito

This library seems to have it all compared to the rest. That being said the one thing I was hoping is that I could key switch into divisi with each instrument section and avoid phasing if I had loaded two instances of the same section into Kontakt. Is this at all possible?


----------



## Christof

Ashermusic said:


> So Christof, if you were to only have to live with a single string library, this would be it?


Probably yes, it covers all my needs and matches my writing style.


----------



## Ashermusic

Christof said:


> Probably yes, it covers all my needs and matches my writing style.




Well, considering how good you are, that is high praise indeed.


----------



## lucor

Ok, let's have some fun while my CSS is still downloading. 

Here's a version of Christof's Robber with Berlin Strings. Mostly the Spiccato Exposed patches with some Staccatos. This is tree mics + close mics, if anyone is interested in other mic positions I can upload another version.
I don't have the Expansion that includes Bartok pizzes, so they are missing here.

Surely could use some more tweaking, especially since BST seems to have a bigger dynamic range, but I hope for a first comparison this is enough.


----------



## Christof

lucor said:


> Ok, let's have some fun while my CSS is still downloading.
> 
> Here's a version of Christof's Robber with Berlin Strings. Mostly the Spiccato Exposed patches with some Staccatos. This is tree mics + close mics, if anyone is interested in other mic positions I can upload another version.
> I don't have the Expansion that includes Bartok pizzes, so they are missing here.
> 
> Surely could use some more tweaking, especially since BST seems to have a bigger dynamic range, but I hope for a first comparison this is enough.



I like that very much!I don't have Berlin strings, they sound more classical compared to CSS which sound more "Hollywood".Bur Berlin sound great, very good!


----------



## muziksculp

Christof said:


> I just had fun playing around with the short articulations, incredible how versatile this library can be.




Hi Christof,

The short articulations of CSS sound amazing ! 

This is exactly what I wanted to hear, and you delivered. Thanks for sharing this wonderful sounding track, wow ! I love the sound, and your composition is top-notch. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## Christof

Glad you like it!


----------



## noxtenebrae17

Daryl said:


> OK, thanks. That's the bit that always fails for me in the other libraries, and I was wondering whether or not this one had solved it. It's not the attack that I need, it's the transition, which is every bit as important as the slur transition, IMO.



I agree with you wholeheartedly Daryl. The thing I see in other libraries with bow change legato is that they sample a very smooth bow change. While this is sometimes nice, its not always what we need, especially when writing more energetic passages.

What is needed is something like this:
Smooth Bow Change Legato - for lyrical and softer passages (very helpful when creating phrases/thinking like string player)
Pronounced Bow Change (detaché) Legato - For those energetic longer bow strokes
Fast Bow Change (detaché) Legato - For faster passages that are all bowed in consecutive down-up bowings.

While this seems like a lot, its what really covers all the bases. I can't think of a singular library that has sample detaché legato, but if you listen around to classical and film music, it is such a common technique. Slurred legato is fantastic and all, but its only half of the story.

Regardless, CSS is a wonderful little library and an immense value for what they charge for it. I even enjoy the little piano they practically threw in for the price.


----------



## midiman

lucor said:


> Ok, let's have some fun while my CSS is still downloading.
> 
> Here's a version of Christof's Robber with Berlin Strings. Mostly the Spiccato Exposed patches with some Staccatos. This is tree mics + close mics, if anyone is interested in other mic positions I can upload another version.
> I don't have the Expansion that includes Bartok pizzes, so they are missing here.
> 
> Surely could use some more tweaking, especially since BST seems to have a bigger dynamic range, but I hope for a first comparison this is enough.




I think the BS has a very vivid sound, and more detail. CSS favors a more balanced, rounder and darker sound, which is typically useful in film. Both sound great. It would all depend on context. I agree with Christof that BS sounds more classical. A lot of fun to hear all these comparisons done. This has been the most exciting sample thread here on VI. Hope this great sharing and comparisons continue. I would love to hear an example with the 8dio Adagio, or 8dio Grandiose, to compare it to CSS. Anybody?


----------



## midiman

Christof said:


> I am working with samples for almost 9 years now, after some time I collected many, many libraries, never used some of them because they never sounded as good as in the demos.
> The main issue always is LEGATO.
> But CSS is really a new level for me, at least for the way I write.
> I couldn't be happier for the moment, I have a wish list for future updates of course, but you really can work professionally with what you get out of the box here.
> And as a classically trained string player I think I know how strings should sound.
> I am VERY curious what they may come up with their brass, woodwinds and percussion series.



This looks like an endorsement that Alex should put on his website. After hearing something like this it makes me want to buy this, even though I have many great string libraries already. We are always looking for that next great thing. And the sound, legato features, and ease of use of CSS, make it a contender. Hearing a personal experience from a composer like Christof who has worked with many string libraries is for me just as important as hearing good demos.


----------



## Takabuntu

Christof said:


> I did a test piece as well, but in this one I used con sardine only:




What a beautiful piece!!!


----------



## passsacaglia

D-Mott said:


> That 'Need to Feel Loved' is one of my fav songs man. I had no idea either until I started reading the comments on YT about how it was sampled from the Track 'Ghosts'


Reflekt - Need to feel loved (Adam K & Soha remix), 2 great buddies from Canada. Love them and indeed that remix is One of the greatest remixes ever. Listen to their remix on We hold on,4 AM, Come fly away and You're not alone. Great gems!


----------



## dreamnight92

Ok, maybe I prefer Berlin for shorts, but CSS sounds very good the same. I think sometimes for shorts you need to rise the volume of the close mics to avoid that the sound of the room to blur the sound. 

About the dark sound of CSS: it's the first think I noticed, but that's not the point, you can easily adjust this with eq, for my taste I prefer the definition of the mids that really seems to shine. 

@Christof your compositions are wonderful


----------



## Altine Jackson

The topic title should be renamed to "The Christof Appreciation Thread"!

(Also, yes... I really enjoyed the shorts composition too)


----------



## Sid Francis

if he deserves it... Great tune Christof!!


----------



## Christof

Altine Jackson said:


> The topic title should be renamed to "The Christof Appreciation Thread"!
> 
> (Also, yes... I really enjoyed the shorts composition too)


No, this library just matches my personal taste and needs.It might not be suitable for everyone.


----------



## Ashermusic

Christof said:


> No, this library just matches my personal taste and needs.It might not be suitable for everyone.




You are one of only a handful of people here about whom I would say the following: Your recommendation makes me sit up and take notice.


----------



## 5Lives

Absolutely wonderful Berlin Strings demo @lucor ! I think Berlin / Spitfire sounds a bit more crisp and punchy, but that may be due to the room mix / EQ. Would be interesting to hear if CSS could sound like that with a bit of post-processing. Now it may be that CSS is much faster to program than Berlin / Spitfire as well, so that could be a plus.


----------



## Altine Jackson

Christof said:


> No, this library just matches my personal taste and needs.It might not be suitable for everyone.



Ack, sorry. It's always tricky getting certain tones across in brief text alone. The comment was tongue in cheek and meant as a little joke. I enjoyed both of your pieces and ended up buying CSS because of the praise throughout the thread. I can definitely say your posts were a large part of the decision making process.


----------



## D-Mott

I dare someone to do a version of The Robber with HS. I'd imagine that to be an absolute nightmare :D


----------



## Altine Jackson

I poked at The Robber with HS earlier today, but didn't post it since I felt that a quick job wouldn't do the library justice. It holds up fairly well in the higher strings and cello, but the basses sounded particularly undefined when compared with CSS and Berlin Strings. 

The other sections sounded more than passably good but not fantastic, if that makes sense. This was with staccatissimo on every section aside from the Violin IIs (which don't have that articulation for some strange reason, so I settled for staccato). I could tell that I'd need to really dive into the note lengths, velocities, and patch selection to make a decent comparison. There were definitely certain passages or attacks that would have sounded better with a Staccato or Stac on Bow patch, for example.


----------



## D-Mott

Altine Jackson said:


> I poked at The Robber with HS earlier today, but didn't post it since I felt that a quick job wouldn't do the library justice. It holds up fairly well in the higher strings and cello, but the basses sounded particularly undefined when compared with CSS and Berlin Strings.
> 
> The other sections sounded more than passably good but not fantastic, if that makes sense. This was with staccatissimo on every section aside from the Violin IIs (which don't have that articulation for some strange reason, so I settled for staccato). I could tell that I'd need to really dive into the note lengths, velocities, and patch selection to make a decent comparison. There were definitely certain passages or attacks that would have sounded better with a Staccato or Stac on Bow patch, for example.



And see that's what has always bothered me about the short notes in HS. For me the volume jumps are totally wack on some patches. You would be at vel 61, then you go up to 62 and BAM! really loud and it's so obv a different sample. Sometimes the attack one one articulation doesn't suit a certain line and it becomes tedious when switches patches and riding he modwheel just to get something so simple.

I find the staccato are the nicest sounding overall, but just extremely inconsistent that I feel as though I have to write for the library and am not able to write for my self.


----------



## gjelul

lucor said:


> Ok, let's have some fun while my CSS is still downloading.
> 
> Here's a version of Christof's Robber with Berlin Strings. Mostly the Spiccato Exposed patches with some Staccatos. This is tree mics + close mics, if anyone is interested in other mic positions I can upload another version.
> I don't have the Expansion that includes Bartok pizzes, so they are missing here.
> 
> Surely could use some more tweaking, especially since BST seems to have a bigger dynamic range, but I hope for a first comparison this is enough.





Sounds great!!


----------



## dreamnight92

D-Mott said:


> And see that's what has always bothered me about the short notes in HS. For me the volume jumps are totally wack on some patches. You would be at vel 61, then you go up to 62 and BAM! really loud and it's so obv a different sample.



That's because it was programmed as sh^^, I actually use a reaper script that allows me crossfading between short notes, instead jumping from a dynamic layer to another as default...but, that's time consuming to set up the script (and I need to duplicate the instrument 4 times, each for dynamic layer).


----------



## muk

Ashermusic said:


> You are one of only a handful of people here about whom I would say the following: Your recommendation makes me sit up and take notice.



Now, is that a compliment for Christof, or a slight for us others? Both, unnecessarily. I know you say it because it is true - and because it is true I guess you don't anticipate that it can rub people the wrong way. I'll say only this: a gentleman knows what to say, and what to keep to himself.


----------



## rottoy

lucor said:


> Ok, let's have some fun while my CSS is still downloading.
> 
> Here's a version of Christof's Robber with Berlin Strings. Mostly the Spiccato Exposed patches with some Staccatos. This is tree mics + close mics, if anyone is interested in other mic positions I can upload another version.
> I don't have the Expansion that includes Bartok pizzes, so they are missing here.
> 
> Surely could use some more tweaking, especially since BST seems to have a bigger dynamic range, but I hope for a first comparison this is enough.



Yet another reminder that I REALLY REALLY want to be able to afford the main Berlin Strings library.


----------



## MrCambiata

rottoy said:


> Yet another reminder that I REALLY REALLY want to be able to afford the main Berlin Strings library.


Me too. Full of bite and clarity that is spot on for such music. And I join the others - wonderful composition.


----------



## Ashermusic

muk said:


> Now, is that a compliment for Christof, or a slight for us others? Both, unnecessarily. I know you say it because it is true - and because it is true I guess you don't anticipate that it can rub people the wrong way. I'll say only this: a gentleman knows what to say, and what to keep to himself.



It was indeed both a compliment to Christof and a factual statement. There are a handful of people here who in my mind are clearly in a different league from most with their skills and he is one of them.

I don't worry about thin skinned people getting rubbed the wrong way. Most people, if they are honest with themselves, have a sense of where they lie in the skills spectrum.


----------



## muk

See, I am not offended at all. I just thought that is an exemplary case for why there has been grudge against you in the past, both here and on the other forum. It's not that you value the opinion of only a few here. But blaring out at every opportunity that you don't care about the opinion of the rest is bad style, in my opinion. Nothing you need to care about, of course.

Edit: Sorry for the of topic. This library surely deserves better, and I should have handled that via pm.


----------



## Ashermusic

Well, that was not my intention. Back to the topic.


----------



## jamwerks

CSS here on "The Robber" really sound nice. BST sound great also (and costs about twice as much).


----------



## Nathan Allen Pinard

Fer said:


> Hi folks, all the feedback about this library is awesome, and everybody here seems to like a lot this library... i like what i hear in the demos and all you are talking about versaltility, legatos etc.. but..judging by the demos, i tend to think that the tone of these strings is slightly blurry or muddy *in relation *to others; please dont interpret this comment as something negative.. the "perfect tone" is a matter of personal taste. Anybody here has the same impression? im just curious..


The thing about this library is it seems to fill the room more, and sound like a real studio ensemble. As far as it being muddy? That's what strings *are* to me.

EDIT: Also I like that you can hear the first chair.


----------



## rottoy

Now I'm just waiting for OT to slash the price of Berlin Strings to more competitive levels. It would sell like butter on the Sun.


----------



## milesito

jamwerks said:


> CSS here on "The Robber" really sound nice. BST sound great also (and costs about twice as much).


I am torn between the two. Which is easier to program? The cost is a bit of a factor too...but ease of programmability is second only to sound quality and realism which both Berlin strings and CSS seem to have no problem with.


----------



## Daryl

Nathan Allen Pinard said:


> EDIT: Also I like that you can hear the first chair.


They should buy quieter furniture for the players then.


----------



## mickeyl

Incredible year for orchestral sample lovers... Especially with the forthcoming offers from 8dio and sonokinetic there doesn't seem to be a shortage of new libraries.


----------



## 5Lives

milesito said:


> I am torn between the two. Which is easier to program? The cost is a bit of a factor too...but ease of programmability is second only to sound quality and realism which both Berlin strings and CSS seem to have no problem with.



Was about to ask the same question  Would be great to hear more comparisons between CSS and BST.


----------



## prodigalson

milesito said:


> I am torn between the two. Which is easier to program? The cost is a bit of a factor too...but ease of programmability is second only to sound quality and realism which both Berlin strings and CSS seem to have no problem with.



Depends on what you're trying to do with it. Generally speaking, legatos are far easier with CSS....other than very fast lines, I still haven't figured out how to crack that with CSS but BS handles them quite well.


----------



## milesito

prodigalson said:


> Depends on what you're trying to do with it. Generally speaking, legatos are far easier with CSS....other than very fast lines, I still haven't figured out how to crack that with CSS but BS handles them quite well.


Ugh...that's too bad. I was hoping Css would truly have it all including the ability to simply and easily do the fast lines - that sound real. How far off or how much more difficult would you say css is from bst in terms of programming realistic fast lines? I am at the edge of my seat of jumping onto Css but have been saving for bst for its versatility. I just want to be able to play legato or even fast lines in with minimal tweaking.


----------



## novaburst

I think this library is very nice, herd some very nice mock ups, don't think I have seen a library got so much attention but in truth it does sound nice,

So would anybody say that it would between Cinematic Studio Strings and Hollywood Strings as they are sounding quite similar, with H W S on a very attractive dry delivery and wheel expression,and with that 4th of July coming up, 

Or are these two different monsters,


----------



## Fer

Just a quick question, how wet sounds the room mics alone in this library?


----------



## jamwerks

prodigalson said:


> Depends on what you're trying to do with it. Generally speaking, legatos are far easier with CSS....other than very fast lines, I still haven't figured out how to crack that with CSS but BS handles them quite well.


Are you using the Fast-Legato, as outlined in video on Legato. Might be that not everyone knows about these?...


----------



## Brendon Williams

I decided to do a Hollywood Strings version of Christof's The Robber for another comparison. I'll put all three so far in the same post:


----------



## Brendon Williams

D-Mott said:


> I dare someone to do a version of The Robber with HS. I'd imagine that to be an absolute nightmare :D


I didn't find it to be difficult at all.


----------



## Christof

Brendon Williams said:


> I decided to do a Hollywood Strings version of Christof's The Robber for another comparison.


I think the HS version is lacking of attack and precision,dynamics are not very natural, sounds a bit muddy and undifferentiated, maybe you didn't use the shortest articulations?
But this comparison is very interesting...thanks for sharing!


----------



## Justin Miller

I really like how punctual the CSS sounds compared to the others, but is that the entire dynamic range in the comparison you showed? The dynamics seem a bit squashed but the tone is very pleasant.


----------



## Brendon Williams

Christof said:


> I think the HS version is lacking of attack and precision,dynamics are not very natural, sounds a bit muddy and undifferentiated, maybe you didn't use the shortest articulations?
> But this comparison is very interesting...thanks for sharing!



You're right, I didn't use the shortest articulations! I used the spiccato rather than the staccatissimo because I preferred the sound. But maybe it'd be worth sharing that version as well.


----------



## Christof

Justin Miller said:


> I really like how punctual the CSS sounds compared to the others, but is that the entire dynamic range in the comparison you showed? The dynamics seem a bit squashed but the tone is very pleasant.


Yes,actually I used the whole dynamic range from 1-127


----------



## Christof

Brendon Williams said:


> You're right, I didn't use the shortest articulations! I used the spiccato rather than the staccatissimo because I preferred the sound. But maybe it'd be worth sharing that version as well.


Cool!If I would play this on my cello I would play staccatissimo most times


----------



## wst3

I don't know, but in that last comparison post CSS appeals to me the most, there is just something about the sound. Granted there are lots of moving parts, but the arrangement just seemed to leap out. If that makes sense.


----------



## Brendon Williams

wst3 said:


> I don't know, but in that last comparison post CSS appeals to me the most, there is just something about the sound. Granted there are lots of moving parts, but the arrangement just seemed to leap out. If that makes sense.



Though I prefer the timbre of HS and even BS in some ways, I have to agree that the nice crisp attacks make everything the most clear and easy to discern in the original CSS example. It also sounds the most natural to me. I tested the HS staccatissimo and it didn't significantly change things either. However, I also agree with previous posts that the CSS dynamic range seems a bit more restricted comparatively,and that it has an overall darker sound compared to other libraries. The darker timbre lends itself well to classical and a traditional Hollywood sound, but perhaps less so to a modern and hybrid styles. That said, I have no doubt that it's nothing that couldn't be adjusted with EQ or other mixing techniques if the context called for it.


----------



## Craig Sharmat

For those trying to choose between Berlin and CSS, Berlin is far more detailed in it's articulations and "capsule" allows for some very creative options not easily or probably available anywhere else. I really like CSS's no nonsense approach and will pick it up. I also like the sound of CSS, both will have a place in my palette.


----------



## Baron Greuner

CSS to me has a very 50s 60s sound, especially as heard on TV. Probably because most scores back then were not full ensembles because of keeping the costs down. 
I like it and I'm never really sure why smaller ensembles are not the most popular way to go. Saying that, perhaps they are.


----------



## novaburst

Brendon Williams said:


> I didn't find it to be difficult at all.



Goodness !!!! Hollywood sounds very real and natural, Berlin has a lot of detail, C S S feel like its suited for broad string pads, just feel like there is not enough weaponry for the piece, but thats my ears


----------



## dreamnight92

Brendon Williams said:


> I decided to do a Hollywood Strings version of Christof's The Robber for another comparison. I'll put all three so far in the same post:




3 different sounds. I like the "bite" sound of CSS, I think that shorts with this strong attack would work well for trailish stuff. HS has the typical hollywood sound, and, being sincere, sounds nice. BS sound completely different, it has a crispy sound, it's good when you need a more intimate and "in face" sound, typical of smaller strings sections.
They are 3 different beasts, I cannot choose which sounds the best


----------



## 5Lives

The HS demo sounds pretty good to me (though less punchy than the others). Well done @Brendon Williams ! I've never gotten along with EW's approach to patches though (nor the Play engine really). From a playability / programmability standpoint, it seems like CSS and Berlin (with Capsule) would be preferred IMO (even Spitfire seems to be going down a similar path to CSS with their latest Sable update). From an articulation standpoint, seems BST and HS are more comprehensive though so you can really get into the nitty gritty details of things. Then again, BST is quite a lot more expensive than CSS. Decisions, decisions.


----------



## JohnBMears

Brendon Williams said:


> You're right, I didn't use the shortest articulations! I used the spiccato rather than the staccatissimo because I preferred the sound. But maybe it'd be worth sharing that version as well.



Is spiccato as a string articulation considered longer or shorter than staccatissimo?


----------



## Fer

Edited. Judging by the demos CSS has a tight, vintage, and in your face sound. All the sections sounds more or less equally near to the listener. I wonder how the strings sound just with the room mic.
The most tridimensional sound is BST i think. Basses sound comes really from the background with a very beautiful depth... i think that with BST you can feel the space and the air in a way that is not captured in the other versions. At the same time it has the most detailed and crispy sound i think. And the dynamic range is awesome.
Both strings are great of course. But regarding to the tone issue my vote goes to BST.
The good news is that you cant go wrong with any of these libraries : )


----------



## prodigalson

jamwerks said:


> Are you using the Fast-Legato, as outlined in video on Legato. Might be that not everyone knows about these?...



You mean the fast legato triggered with the highest velocity on "advanced" legato mode? Yes...unless there is some other fast legato patch?

To be totally fair tho, I just attempted it on one particular figure and didn't spend a ton of time working on it because I already had Berlin Strings working pretty well on it. It's a repeated 16th note soft flowing ostinato at around 78 bpm. 

It's a particularly strong example of the value of having a wide variety of options for different things as for this particular passage I tried all my libraries including BS, HS, Sable, LASS LS, 8dio and the only way to get an acceptable non-robotic sound for this particular figure was to layer the BS cellos agile legato with a little of the 8dio agitato legato arpeggio cellos. however later in the piece the figure shows up in the violas and here the BS ostinato legato worked far better than the agile legato and the 8dio legato arpeggio didn't work at all.

I'll post the score of the figure and if anyone things they can sequence it with CSS or anything else I'd love to hear it


----------



## wbacer

First of all, thanks Christof, excellent work.
Here's another take on "The Robber."
How about a layered version using both CSS and Berlin Strings.
To my ear anyway, the darker CSS appears to blend well with the more airy Berlin Stings.
With Berlin Strings, I tried to match the articulations that Christof used in CSS.


----------



## prodigalson

This is a tough one as I see both sides here. I genuinely think SF aren't trying to screw anyone over and are trying to be as fair as possible but maybe it would have been better to put have the ensembles as an optional expansion just like the alt mics. Not sure why it's necessary to include them in the main package. 

Maybe there's still time?


----------



## tack

prodigalson said:


> This is a tough one as I see both sides here.


Wrong thread.


----------



## Tinesaeriel

Gosh darn it, and I was hyping myself up to buy CineStrings Core during Cinesamples' Summer Sale, and this puppy pops up! Curses... But anyways, it sounds awesome to my ear right out of the box. Oh, how I wish I could get both! Lucky for me, the EDU discount makes it really bang for the buck, so CSS for me!


----------



## prodigalson

tack said:


> Wrong thread.



Oops...don't know how that happened. I swear I haven't started drinking yet today


----------



## JohnBMears

Tinesaeriel said:


> Gosh darn it, and I was hyping myself up to buy CineStrings Core during Cinesamples' Summer Sale, and this puppy pops up! Curses... But anyways, it sounds awesome to my ear right out of the box. Oh, how I wish I could get both! Lucky for me, the EDU discount makes it really bang for the buck, so CSS for me!


I'm pretty sure CINESAMPLES offers a generous EDU discount too- but prob not during sales. CineStrings doesn't offer portamento or fast legato if that matters to you.


----------



## Tinesaeriel

JohnBMears said:


> I'm pretty sure CINESAMPLES offers a generous EDU discount too- but prob not during sales. CineStrings doesn't offer portamento or fast legato if that matters to you.



They do, but only for music students, which I am not. 

I was mainly thinking of CineStrings for its tone most of all, but CSS, having the tone plus the fast legato, is the deal-maker. I'm well aware of Cinesamples' legato engine being not exactly the most agile from experience with their CineBrass library. Gorgeous tone, but the legato is a little too sluggish for my taste, especially on the Two French Horn ensemble, so if their legato is anything like that for CineStrings, then that wouldn't have been ideal for me. Then again, their CineStrings Solo library has a new Adaptive Legato function, so that could be something they work into Core in the future!


----------



## 5Lives

Any owners of LASS? How does CSS compare?


----------



## D-Mott

Brendon Williams said:


> I didn't find it to be difficult at all.


Well yeah, but see no offense to your attempt, but from what I hear, I wouldn't be happy with it my self. As Christof says, it's lacking attack and definition and I feel like the stacs are too long for the particular speed of the piece


----------



## midiman

5Lives said:


> Any owners of LASS? How does CSS compare?



I stopped using LASS some 4 years ago. For me I prefer HS, 8dio Adagio and Grandiose series. And now CSS is very impressive too with the new legato system and ease of use. I may buy CSS for those two reasons. Also I like the darker warmer sound of CSS.


----------



## novaburst

The CSS sound to nice, this might sound funny but to nice can have perhaps a lazy impact on the user, some times its nice to put the butter on the toast your self or at least choose what goes on your bread.


----------



## D-Mott

novaburst said:


> The CSS sound to nice, this might sound funny but to nice can have perhaps a lazy impact on the user, some times its nice to put the butter on the toast your self or at least choose what goes on your bread.



How can that have a lazy impact on the user? Isn't it better for the user to think about their music rather than tedious programming and mixing?


----------



## AfilionMusic

JohnBMears said:


> Is spiccato as a string articulation considered longer or shorter than staccatissimo?



Spiccato is shorter than Staccatissimo.


----------



## tack

AfilionMusic said:


> Spiccato is shorter than Staccatissimo.


I'm not a violin player, but I wonder if that is necessarily true. My understanding is that the main difference, rather than length, is how it's bowed. With spiccato, the bow bounces off the strings, which gives it a sharper and more "rosiny" attack. I can imagine a note played staccatissimo having the same duration as a spiccato note, but the sound will be quite different.


----------



## AfilionMusic

tack said:


> I'm not a violin player, but I wonder if that is necessarily true. My understanding is that the main difference, rather than length, is how it's bowed. With spiccato, the bow bounces off the strings, which gives it a sharper and more "rosiny" attack. I can imagine a note played staccatissimo having the same duration as a spiccato note, but the sound will be quite different.



That's just from what I'm hearing in CSS. Spiccato is a tiny bit shorter than Staccatissimo. It has a shorter tail.


----------



## Kralc

Little late to the party here, but sounds pretty great to my ears, and flipping great writing Christof!


----------



## Brendon Williams

Christof said:


> I think the HS version is lacking of attack and precision,dynamics are not very natural, sounds a bit muddy and undifferentiated, maybe you didn't use the shortest articulations?
> But this comparison is very interesting...thanks for sharing!





novaburst said:


> Goodness !!!! Hollywood sounds very real and natural, Berlin has a lot of detail, C S S feel like its suited for broad string pads, just feel like there is not enough weaponry for the piece, but thats my ears





dreamnight92 said:


> 3 different sounds. I like the "bite" sound of CSS, I think that shorts with this strong attack would work well for trailish stuff. HS has the typical hollywood sound, and, being sincere, sounds nice. BS sound completely different, it has a crispy sound, it's good when you need a more intimate and "in face" sound, typical of smaller strings sections.
> They are 3 different beasts, I cannot choose which sounds the best





D-Mott said:


> Well yeah, but see no offense to your attempt, but from what I hear, I wouldn't be happy with it my self. As Christof says, it's lacking attack and definition and I feel like the stacs are too long for the particular speed of the piece





5Lives said:


> The HS demo sounds pretty good to me (though less punchy than the others).



I love that there are so many great string options out there that a lot of it is clearly down to personal taste more than "good vs bad". And I have no doubt that there are many others that would do as great job at this. What a time we live in!

Personally, I agree most with Dreamnight92 – they are all useful sounds that could each work better than the others in different contexts. That said, I had no intention of getting another string library, being very happy with the ones I already have. But this thread has convinced me to put CSS on my "must buy eventually" list.


----------



## tack

I know a few people have had questions about managing the articulations in CSS, so I figured I'd mention this here in this thread:

In order to make CSS fit better with my template and workflow, I made a couple changes to FlexRouter and released a new version.

Here's a video showing the new features, and in particular explains how I'm working with CSS:



Maybe some folks here will find it helpful.


----------



## D-Mott

Ashermusic said:


> It was indeed both a compliment to Christof and a factual statement. There are a handful of people here who in my mind are clearly in a different league from most with their skills and he is one of them.
> 
> I don't worry about thin skinned people getting rubbed the wrong way. Most people, if they are honest with themselves, have a sense of where they lie in the skills spectrum.




Jay, I am really skillful. You should really listen to me more :D


----------



## Zhao Shen

D-Mott said:


> Jay, I am really skillful. You should really listen to me more :D


Me too Jay, my skills are skiller than any skillful skillet will ever skill.


----------



## jtnyc

muk said:


> See, I am not offended at all. I just thought that is an exemplary case for why there has been grudge against you in the past, both here and on the other forum. It's not that you value the opinion of only a few here. But blaring out at every opportunity that you don't care about the opinion of the rest is bad style, in my opinion. Nothing you need to care about, of course.



+1


----------



## Saxer

Skiller thread!


----------



## NYC Composer

Saxer said:


> Skiller thread!


Skillrex!


----------



## passsacaglia

Been chilling with buying a string library, so many threads here and so much info.

But seems you guys say that fast legato is something this library can do good?
Really wanted to do fast lines, "melody" lines that can sync to vocal phrases etc.
Think this might be it. Will also slam my student bank account and fix this!
Yes the edu discount on this (plus the 50% Yamaha C grand) is phenomenal!

ps more examples/songs you guys made is very very welcome'D. I will post a nice playlist when I get this and convince more ppl buying it


----------



## muk

Here is Christof's 'The Robber' with Dimension Strings. 10/8/6/6/4. Keep in mind that DS is recorded dry, so an out of the box sound wouln't be very meaningful.


----------



## jononotbono

This library sounds amazing and I will upgrade from CS2. Perhaps I have missed this, but what is the size of CSS (number of players)? It's a definite buy for me but I wanna get Sable first. Can't believe how great Christof's music is and sounds. Thanks for sharing it!


----------



## Tatu

Alex doesn't fail. This library sounds just incredible and again, like with CS2, he delivers short articulations which render all the other libraries useless (in that regard & this is just my opinion). Great example of those by @Christof by the way! 

I tested it quickly with CS2 and Adagio; CS2 sounded good, but CSS has definitely more slam on the upper dynamics, which makes it a bit (a lot) better and tasty and there's more detail to them overall. Adagio.. well I gave up after a few notes, because I just don't like - or just don't know how to properly work with - it's shorts.

Now how about very expressive, isolated passages and ensemble work with this? I haven't listened all the demos/user demos on this thread, but I'm thinking of something like this (Adagio only):


----------



## Christof

muk said:


> Here is Christof's 'The Robber' with Dimension Strings. 10/8/6/6/4. Keep in mind that DS is recorded dry, so an out of the box sound wouln't be very meaningful.



This is very interesting to listen!Especially for me because I am recording cello samples for VSL since they started doing their thing 
So actually I hear myself playing in the cello section.
It sounds even more detailed and crispy than the Berlin version.Very classical!
But that's Vienna I like it.


----------



## muk

Christof said:


> So actually I hear myself playing in the cello section.



Nice, I wasn't aware of that  I knew that you recorded part of the cello samples of their solo strings library. I agree on the classical sound, that's one thing I really like about their libraries.


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

Now it's become even more a Christof thread than it already was.


----------



## Polarity

prodigalson said:


> Depends on what you're trying to do with it. Generally speaking, legatos are far easier with CSS....other than very fast lines, I still haven't figured out how to crack that with CSS but BS handles them quite well.


For what I listened till now (demos and Legato walkthrough) I understood that CSS is able to do well enough even very fast lines... 
that CineStrings gave me some trouble to achieve till now, while LASS Lite indeed did not.
I should search again among various posts in the two CSS threads but I'm sure that someone who bought it confirmed that. Am I wrong and badly understood the matter instead?!

Lastly I wonder how well CSS can play the Star Wars IV Luke's Theme (used also as The Force Theme in the following movies) kind of intense strings parts.


----------



## jamwerks

Brendon Williams said:


> You're right, I didn't use the shortest articulations! I used the spiccato rather than the staccatissimo because I preferred the sound. But maybe it'd be worth sharing that version as well.


What mic's are you using in the HS example?


----------



## jamwerks

tack said:


> ...I made a couple changes to FlexRouter and released a new version..


Thanks for that. Awesome tool that FlexRouter! I am going to have to redo the entire Adagio-Agitato library with it, and will finally be able to use that library. Since 8dio is too lazy to do that for us, guess I'll have to do it myself. And I'll share here with any and all who would like to use them. Think I'll also redo the Claire WW series...


----------



## tack

jamwerks said:


> Thanks for that. Awesome tool that FlexRouter! I am going to have to redo the entire Adagio-Agitato library with it, and will finally be able to use that library. Since 8dio is too lazy to do that for us, guess I'll have to do it myself. And I'll share here with any and all who would like to use them. Think I'll also redo the Claire WW series...


Sounds like a fun project! Please do let me know how it goes over on the FlexRouter thread.


----------



## wst3

Hey Jamwerks - I was in the midst of writing an email to Tack to suggest a community pool of presets. Don't need to do that now<G>...

And Tack, I tried a very early version of Flexrouter, and it wasn't quite ready for me (or vica-versa). And I still recommend that people at least take a look at it, but I hadn't... yesterday I downloaded the current version and I think I may have found my unifying tool. Thanks so much for all your hard work and cleverness!


----------



## noxtenebrae17

jononotbono said:


> Perhaps I have missed this, but what is the size of CSS (number of players)? It's a definite buy for me but I wanna get Sable first.



10/7/7/6/5


----------



## jononotbono

noxtenebrae17 said:


> 10/7/7/6/5



Thank you! I look forward to getting it in a couple of months. Think a new SSD maybe in order to cater for all these amazing libraries that are getting released this year! There's too many!


----------



## Altine Jackson

tack said:


> Sounds like a fun project! Please do let me know how it goes over on the FlexRouter thread.



Similarly to wst3, I never really had a need for FlexRouter before and didn't have time to look into it yesterday, but I can tell that it will likely be a great solution to my (minor!) problem posted on the CSS announcements thread. Thanks for the link and your continued time spent on the project!


----------



## Brendon Williams

jamwerks said:


> What mic's are you using in the HS example?



I'm only using the default mics in this example.


----------



## 5Lives

So comparing to Berlin Strings (which has a slightly smaller section), but who's rendition of the MIDI sounded pretty great:

CSS
- $399, ~35GB
- Playable legato - 4 types (portamento, slow, medium, fast)
- Fast runs patch (Marcato)
- Legato repetition
- Bow attack control
- Crossfadable vibrato (emulated?)
- 5 Shorts - Spiccato, Staccato, Staccatissimo, Sforzando, Marcato
- Pizzicato, Col Legno, Bartok Snaps,
- Harmonics
- Tremolo
- Measured Tremolo
- Trills
- Con Sordino emulation

Berlin Strings (Main Library)
- $956, ~129GB
- Playable legato - 5 types (portamento, slurred, agile, fingered, runs)
- Recorded runs
- Reptitions and double / triple strokes
- Bow attack control
- Recorded vibrato (three types)
- 8 Shorts - Spiccatissimo, Spiccato, Spiccato Exposed, Staccato, Staccato Bold, Martele, Portato Short
- Pizzicato
- Tremolo (4 types)
- Trills (4 types)
- Playable Glissandi
- Sustains with recorded dynamics / swells

Pretty big cost difference (along with size difference). CSS has some stuff BST doesn't and vice versa. BST does seem the more featured library overall, but does that add to the programming complexity - and how often do BST owners leverage all of the unique patches?


----------



## tack

5Lives said:


> - Playable legato - 3 types (portamento, medium, fast)


There's actually 4 types: portamento, slow, medium, and fast.


----------



## WindcryMusic

Here's my attempt at a mockup (requested earlier in the thread) of Christof's fantastic piece using NI/Audiobro Symphony Series String Ensemble.



In creating this mockup, I found the following items of note:

The spiccato articulation of the violins and violas in particular of SSSE is noticeably shorter than that of CSS. Nonetheless I used the SSSE spiccato, since the alternative of switching to a staccato articulation made some of the parts a bit too soft and muddy, and to me it felt like the piece wanted the spiccato.
The velocity range of SSSE (like other libraries, from what I am reading in this thread) is wider than that of CSS, so I ended up pulling back on some of the velocity extremes (at both ends) to have the piece not have such wide extremes of dynamics as to be unlistenable. The dynamics are still more pronounced than the CSS version in places but I also didn't want to go too far in trying to emulate it, since for some the greater range of SSSE might be viewed as a benefit.
The lack of a marcato articulation in SSSE meant that I had to try to fake it using a sustain with a modulation curve.
The lack of a measured tremolo in SSSE meant that I had to try to get by with just the standard tremolo. For the SSSE basses in particular this sounds a bit horrid, so I pulled back a bit on them in the mix just to avoid completely destroying the mood of the piece. You can still hear them though, as I didn't want to disguise an area where SSSE falls short. I sure do like that articulation of CSS a lot!
On the whole I found this an interesting exercise, and one in which I actually felt like I got a bit more out of SSSE in the end than I had expected. Still, for pieces like this in the future, I think there is no doubt that CSS will clearly be my first choice.


----------



## Vik

5Lives said:


> BST does seem the more featured library overall, but does that add to the programming complexity...


I'd say that the BST programmers have done a good job on programming - even if the solutions I look for aren't always as obvious as I'd like them to be. For instance, I would have preferred a lot more use of contextual menus which would pop up if you right-clicked on various objects (eg e learn function which would let me right click on an articulation in order to assign it to an external controller).
Btw, are you sure Berlin Strings have crossfadable vibrato?


----------



## jamwerks

Brendon Williams said:


> I'm only using the default mics in this example.


Which one is the default mic?


----------



## Polarity

WindcryMusic said:


> Here's my attempt at a mockup (requested earlier in the thread) of Christof's fantastic piece using NI/Soundiron Symphony Series String Ensemble.
> 
> 
> In creating this mockup, I found the following items of note:
> 
> The spiccato articulation of the violins and violas in particular of SSSE is noticeably shorter than that of CSS. Nonetheless I used the SSSE spiccato, since the alternative of switching to a staccato articulation made some of the parts a bit too soft and muddy, and to me it felt like the piece wanted the spiccato.
> The velocity range of SSSE (like other libraries, from what I am reading in this thread) is wider than that of CSS, so I ended up pulling back on some of the velocity extremes (at both ends) to have the piece not have such wide extremes of dynamics as to be unlistenable. The dynamics are still more pronounced than the CSS version in places but I also didn't want to go too far in trying to emulate it, since for some the greater range of SSSE might be viewed as a benefit.
> The lack of a marcato articulation in SSSE meant that I had to try to fake it using a sustain with a modulation curve.
> The lack of a measure tremolo in SSSE meant that I had to try to get by with just the standard tremolo. For the SSSE basses in particular this sounds a bit horrid, so I pulled back a bit on them in the mix just to avoid completely destroying the mood of the piece. You can still hear them though, as I didn't want to disguise an area where SSSE falls short. I sure do like that articulation of CSS a lot!
> On the whole I found this an interesting exercise, and one in which I actually felt like I got a bit more out of SSSE in the end than I had expected. Still, for pieces like this in the future, I think there is no doubt that CSS will clearly be my first choice.



Thank you for your time doing it. 
Indeed I agree on your points.


----------



## WindcryMusic

Polarity said:


> Thank you for your time doing it.
> Indeed I agree on your points.



Except for the part where I said Soundiron was involved in the making of SSSE, I assume.  I've been using SSBC far more often than SSSE, so that's what accidentally sprung to mind while I was typing.


----------



## 5Lives

Vik said:


> I'd say that the BST programmers have done a good job on programming - even if the solutions I look for aren't always as obvious as I'd like them to be. For instance, I would have preferred a lot more use of contextual menus which would pop up if you right-clicked on various objects (eg e learn function which would let me right click on an articulation in order to assign it to an external controller).
> Btw, are you sure Berlin Strings have crossfadable vibrato?



I think Berlin Strings has 3 vibrato types (none, romantic, strong). I believe with Capsule, you can set it up in such a way to crossfade between them? Not sure though as I don't own BST.

Does CSS have recorded vibrato or is it just modeled?


----------



## prodigalson

Polarity said:


> For what I listened till now (demos and Legato walkthrough) I understood that CSS is able to do well enough even very fast lines...
> that CineStrings gave me some trouble to achieve till now, while LASS Lite indeed did not.
> I should search again among various posts in the two CSS threads but I'm sure that someone who bought it confirmed that. Am I wrong and badly understood the matter instead?!
> 
> Lastly I wonder how well CSS can play the Star Wars IV Luke's Theme (used also as The Force Theme in the following movies) kind of intense strings parts.



Let me clarify: I'm not saying it CANT do fast lines, I'm saying I haven't cracked it yet on ONE very specific fast ostinato that I was working on that, to be fair, was the only thing I've tried it on and I didn't really try very long. And also many other libraries with otherwise good fast legato struggled with this figure too. But for that particular figure one specific patch in Berlin strings was able to do it reasonably well

It entirely all depends on the line/figure itself. No library can do EVERY kind of line perfectly. I'm sure there are many kinds of fast lines that CSS would be great at.


----------



## Polarity

WindcryMusic said:


> Except for the part where I said Soundiron was involved in the making of SSSE, I assume.  I've been using SSBC far more often than SSSE, so that's what accidentally sprung to mind while I was typing.


Oops I didn't realized (when I listened to the track) you wrote Soundiron instead of AudioBro 
No problem, I thought about the right string library anyway.


----------



## Polarity

prodigalson said:


> Let me clarify: I'm not saying it CANT do fast lines, I'm saying I haven't cracked it yet on ONE very specific fast ostinato that I was working on that, to be fair, was the only thing I've tried it on and I didn't really try very long. And also many other libraries with otherwise good fast legato struggled with this figure too. But for that particular figure one specific patch in Berlin strings was able to do it reasonably well
> 
> It entirely all depends on the line/figure itself. No library can do EVERY kind of line perfectly. I'm sure there are many kinds of fast lines that CSS would be great at.


Uh, you were talking about ostinatos.... I was just thinking (and meaning) about legato lines only.
My fault, sorry. 
Yes of course listening to other libraries reproduction of Christof's track we can distinguish the difference of CSS, BS or HS short articulations among them...
Having BS also Spiccatissimo and Portatos articulations doesn't surprise me what you are specifying then.
Thank you


----------



## prodigalson

Yes, although to clarify I was talking about fast Legato, not spiccatissimo or any other short note. It is a smooth, flowing legato ostinato.


----------



## Brendon Williams

Just wanted to add one other version of Christof's great piece. Here it is with Albion One:


----------



## muziksculp

Brendon Williams said:


> Just wanted to add one other version of Christof's great piece. Here it is with Albion One:




Hi Brendon Williams,

The Albion One version sounds great ! To my ears they sound a bit more focused and upfront sounding compared to the CSS version.

So many great library options we have these days.

Thanks for sharing, this is very helpful to compare various libraries.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## milesito

Does anyone know where we get the 50% off code for the Cinematic Studio Piano? It is supposed to be 50% off for the month of July right when we buy CSS? so $69/2? Do we have to buy CSS first and then do they send us the discount code for CSP? I have CSS in the shopping cart, but CSP is still showing as full price $69.


----------



## lucor

milesito said:


> Does anyone know where we get the 50% off code for the Cinematic Studio Piano? It is supposed to be 50% off for the month of July right? so $69/2?


As soon as I put CSS in my cart the 50% discount was automatically applied to the piano, before I even actually purchased the strings. Not sure if you get a code by email if you decide to wait with the piano purchase, but I would guess so.


----------



## milesito

lucor said:


> As soon as I put CSS in my cart the 50% discount was automatically applied to the piano, before I even actually purchased the strings. Not sure if you get a code by email if you decide to wait with the piano purchase, but I would guess so.


thanks for the quick reply, Lucor. So did you get the piano for $35? It's not updating in my shopping cart. :( I'm ok buying them at the same time, but am not sure why it's not reducing the price of the piano.


----------



## Brendon Williams

muziksculp said:


> Hi Brendon Williams,
> 
> The Albion One version sounds great ! To my ears they sound a bit more focused and upfront sounding compared to the CSS version.
> 
> So many great library options we have these days.
> 
> Thanks for sharing, this is very helpful to compare various libraries.
> 
> Cheers,
> Muziksculp



Glad to help! I enjoy these comparisons as well.


----------



## playz123

milesito said:


> thanks for the quick reply, Lucor. So did you get the piano for $35? It's not updating in my shopping cart. :( I'm ok buying them at the same time, but am not sure why it's not reducing the price of the piano.


But as Lucor ask, are you buying CSS via the special discount code Alex sent by email to previous CS owners or are you buying just via the current special offer?


----------



## muziksculp

Hi,

For those who also got the great deal on the CSPIANO. what do you think about it ? PIANO sound, Playability, ..etc. ?

Thanks,
Muziksculp


----------



## 5Lives

I did a very rough translation of Christof's beautiful piece in LASS. Didn't do much except change the keyswitches and throw some EW Spaces on there. Used mainly the marcato, spicato, and staccato samples. Found it difficult to get LASS to do the faster parts cleanly.

http://picosong.com/xZVp/

Really highlights how nice Christof's original with CSS sounds!


----------



## midiman

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> For those who also got the great deal on the CSPIANO. what do you think about it ? PIANO sound, Playability, ..etc. ?
> 
> Thanks,
> Muziksculp



I would also love to know feedback on the CS piano! Anyone?


----------



## clisma

Just got this yesterday and am using on a project straight away. Does anyone know if there's a way to kill the "a niente" functionality of the mod-wheel. I'm using the Ensemble Lite patch and at the very bottom of the range, the sound vanishes. I'd like for it to NOT vanish...

P.S. The piano is surprisingly crisp and playable! I'm not a fan of the bottom range though, doesn't speak too clearly. But I have to say, it was a rather pleasant surprise.


----------



## milesito

playz123 said:


> But as Lucor ask, are you buying CSS via the special discount code Alex sent by email to previous CS owners or are you buying just via the current special offer?


thanks Lucor. Turns out that I needed to add the CSP from the main shopping cart screen for the deal. I could not go back to the CSP page and add it from there. Doesn't matter if I had the discount code for CSS. I believe the CSP is half off for all purchasers of CSS (whether it's with the upgrade code or not). Happy 4th of July!


----------



## reids

Can CSS 'Cinematic Studio Strings' do dynamic bowings, or which 8dio calls 'arcs'? These are a specially featured articulation on 8dio's upcoming century strings. If you listen closely on the two demos I listed below provided by 8dio, you can hear how the strings re-bow smooth and effortlessly while dynamics rise and fall. You can hear the depth and variation in each note played.
Ii would be great for someone to do a demo comparison of these two short example pieces by 8dio using CSS. A posting demo by Christof would also be cool to hear.


----------



## Revenant

5Lives said:


> So comparing to Berlin Strings...



Nice comparison, but I think you forgot to list emulated con sordino on BSS, it does have it, too.


----------



## reids

Christof said:


> Probably yes, it covers all my needs and matches my writing style.



Hey Christof, can you do 1 or 2 short demos with CSS against the two 8dio 'century strings' pieces I posted above. Thanks.


----------



## Christof

reids said:


> Hey Christof, can you do 1 or 2 short demos with CSS against the two 8dio 'century strings' pieces I posted above. Thanks.


Can you send me the midi?


----------



## Vik

Christof said:


> Can you send me the midi?


What a great forum, and what a helpful bunch of people. Thanks.


----------



## Jackles

Christof said:


> I just had fun playing around with the short articulations, incredible how versatile this library can be.




This demo is really making me think about a possible purchase.. 
I downloaded the midi file Christof provided and had a test with HS. The shorts of CSS seem clearer and faster. I couldn't get that crisp and rapid sound with HS. 

I'm not sure those hyper fast lines are doable for real, to my ears, they sound a little fake (I'm talking about those extremely fast non-slured short notes), but still, it works very well. 

I could probably get something in the ball park with HS, but that wouldn't be without a painstaking combination of different patches, and quit a bit of midi editing. I might be wrong though, maybe someone can pull of a much better result, with no such effort. That's not my case, and according to the comparison posted earlier, as good as it might sound, it didn't feel as good as the CSS version.

What amaze me with this library (CSS) is this apparent easiness to have a more than descent sound right out of the box (and with no reverb).

I will let it cool down a couple of weeks, too much hype in this thread


----------



## Killiard

clisma said:


> Does anyone know if there's a way to kill the "a niente" functionality of the mod-wheel. I'm using the Ensemble Lite patch and at the very bottom of the range, the sound vanishes. I'd like for it to NOT vanish...



This has been bothering me a bit too. Feels quite sudden doesn't it? I might be tempted to send support an email.


----------



## Christof

Jackles said:


> I'm not sure those hyper fast lines are doable for real, to my ears, they sound a little fake (I'm talking about those extremely fast non-slured short notes), but still, it works very well.


They are playable, but the tempo in my demo might be a bit ambitious 
Of course I faked some notes to make the mockup sound cool, I somebody would ask me for sheet music for a real orchestra I would have to simplify some bars.


----------



## Altine Jackson

Deleted. This post originally compared CSS to Blakus' Green Acre while keeping in spirit with the original test (seeing how various string libraries compared on basic playthroughs) but it was not being interpreted that way. I don't want misunderstandings about quick, no edit renderings to influence early opinions of the library.


----------



## Polarity

Among the series of reproductions of Christof shorts articulations piece... his one made with CCS is my favourite of all because make me believe it could be a track (that I didn't know by memory) from one of the Pirates of Caribbean movies...
well actually it could be weird it's just strings without anything else typical of Zimmer's and/or Remote Control orchestrators, but the tone and the emphasis of the sounds reminds me more those fast strings tracks.
Of course much contribution goes to Christof's composition.

At second place I could put Berling Strings version (very detailed but a bit edgy perhaps)...
but also the Albion One is very good indeed (glad I own and use it already).
However in both I miss a bit that fast Sync Tremolos of CSS that seem to be wonderful.
NI/AudioBro version is not bad at all either but I expected better from it.
The LASS version perhaps disappointed me more.
If I was thinking a few days "why not to upgrade LASS Lite to FULL - that is more expanded nowadays - (instead of getting CSS or SSSE) for a smaller sound with divisis and to have also the Aleatoric and First Chairs patches maybe and get also the Sordinos Legatos...?" 
Well, that LASS demo made that thought vanish from my mind now.  

A great shot too is the one with the layered CSS and BST together...
Just wondering now if layering Metropolis Ark 1 strings is possible to obtain a similar blend.

Today I'm thinking that I could anticipate the CSS purchase and get also the Piano:
even if I was never so fond of Yamaha pianos I think this CSP has a nice tone and can be useful to blend in sometimes.


----------



## Polarity

Altine Jackson said:


> Similar to the results with the Robber, I preferred Berlin Strings and Cinematic Studio Strings (pretty much neck and neck). That said, in Blakus' track Hollywood Strings probably could have fared much, much better with a bit more TLC (or even a different patch at times) in midi.


This time I didn't appreciate too much the CSS version (BST is the best without doubt for me)...
the highest notes passage is like "aborted" and without enphasis... it's flat and suffucated compared to the other four libraries in the youtube video.
Problem with dynamics/velocity values in CSS playing or is it really so dark?


----------



## Altine Jackson

Polarity said:


> This time I didn't appreciate too much the CSS version (BST is the best without doubt for me)...
> the highest notes passage is like "aborted" and without enphasis... it's flat and suffucated compared to the other four libraries in the youtube video.
> Problem with dynamics/velocity values in CSS playing or is it really so dark?



You're likely hearing a difference in dynamics, though CSS is notably darker than some of the other libraries. I used the default mix and didn't add any EQ, FX, or Post Processing beyond raising the volume a tad, since his levels were higher than mine for some reason.

I'm heading out for the day but might be a bit less "fair" and edit the midi tonight. Despite what he said about it being a quick pass and only fixing "glaring errors", Blakus did have both cc1 and cc11 heavily used, while I only had one hand free to play cc1! So he must have done -some- manual edits afterwards... or use a foot controller (afaik he doesn't use a breath controller, so that wouldn't be a factor).


----------



## wst3

Polarity said:


> This time I didn't appreciate too much the CSS version<snip>



I had the same reaction, not sure which I prefer, but I don't think CSS fared as well in this comparison. Part of the reason may be that the piece itself just isn't quite as compelling? Of course that project was trying to compare timbre, so trickery would have been minimized.


----------



## Christof

Polarity said:


> Among the series of reproductions of Christof shorts articulations piece... his one made with CCS is my favourite of all because make me believe it could be a track (that I didn't know by memory) from one of the Pirates of Caribbean movies...
> well actually it could be weird it's just strings without anything else typical of Zimmer's and/or Remote Control orchestrators, but the tone and the emphasis of the sounds reminds me more those fast strings tracks.
> Of course much contribution goes to Christof's composition.


Can you tell which cue in pirates you mean in particular?
Would be very interesting for me to hear, funny, I never thought about a comparison like that, thats why I am asking


----------



## Altine Jackson

If anyone wants to post a more polished version, the sheet music is here. Keeping in mind that if a _huge_ amount of time is spent on it, it makes the comparison increasingly less relevant (especially comparing it to Hollywood Strings and Adagio): https://app.box.com/s/n1spdua22rvvlugx7k7a

Since I don't have time to do much in the way of editing a more polished version myself before I leave, I just want to stress again that the time between first looking at the sheet music and uploading it to soundcloud was literally 15 - 20 minutes (a couple of which were spent getting the melody under my fingers, along with an embarrassing couple of failed sight readings for the viola line). The biggest difference is that I didn't raise the volume at the climax of the piece as dramatically as he did.


----------



## Polarity

Christof said:


> Can you tell which cue in pirates you mean in particular?
> Would be very interesting for me to hear, funny, I never thought about a comparison like that, thats why I am asking


not one in particular...
it's the spirit, the mood in general... the fast passeges and harmony changes that reminds me of those tracks (that can be also very very different from yours) and make me think of your track as good as additional music for those scores.
Maybe you should complete the arrangement and try to submit it for the next episode? 

EDIT: perhaps Klaus Badelt's second part of "Walk the Plank" (from first movie) after about 1.00 minute could be one of those.


----------



## 5Lives

It'd be nice to compare a slower, more lyrical MIDI now. Especially interested in CSS vs. Berlin and Mural (I know not the same size but what incredible tone for those sweeping lines. Was listening to demos and Mural is just gorgeous).


----------



## Polarity

+plus one for slow lines: normal and sordinos legatos.
again LASS FULL/ LS (Legato Sordinos) and NI SSE would be very appreciated


----------



## Christof

Some members here asked me to share my "The Wedding CSS" demo as midi as well:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43286649/the%20wedding%20css.mid.zip (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43286649/the wedding css.mid.zip)


----------



## milesito

Does anyone with CsS know which key is used to keyswitch from standard to advanced mode and which turns the fast sync tremolo on and off? Thanks guys!


----------



## tack

milesito said:


> Does anyone with CsS know which key is used to keyswitch from standard to advanced mode and which turns the fast sync tremolo on and off?


IIRC it's the keyswitch that's listed on the articulation button but you press it with different velocities to trigger the different modes.


----------



## Lassi Tani

I tested how Soaring Strings would do with Blakus piece: 

I used Sustain Soft patches for the quieter parts and sustain and legato patches for the louder parts.

EDIT: Added a bit more reverb.


----------



## Altine Jackson

A large part of the point of Blakus' piece was to expose the legato behavior of different libraries, so using a sustain patch and layering is kind of cheating in that way. It sounds nice though! Took the original CSS link down though, since I think too much weight was being put on the sound of a 5 - 10 minute session.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

I would like to add something: I love that thread here because everyone is contributing so much input and work and thats really great community here so glad that something like that is happening. Thank you for that. Love you!


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

Agreed, it's a great thread on so many levels.


----------



## Lassi Tani

Altine Jackson said:


> A large part of the point of Blakus' piece was to expose the legato behavior of different libraries, so using a sustain patch and layering is kind of cheating in that way. It sounds nice though! Took the original CSS link down though, since I think too much weight was being put on the sound of a 5 - 10 minute session.



Thank you! I didn't used layering, but yes I used sustain patches. My intention wasn't to demonstrate only the legato patches .

And I agree with everyone here that this has been a very valuable thread!


----------



## Altine Jackson

Yes, it's been the most enjoyable library release thread in a long time.



sekkosiki said:


> Thank you! I didn't used layering, but yes I used sustain patches. My intention wasn't to demonstrate only the legato patches .
> 
> And I agree with everyone here that this has been a very valuable thread!



Fair enough! In the context of the thread it makes more sense to compare tone.


----------



## milesito

Gotta say I also appreciate the fact that Alex walbank also gives us the midi files for all of his demos with CSS that are in his tutorials. It is nice to see that it is pretty much out of the box that one can program such lovely and real sounding music (if one can write/arrange properly and use a mod wheel properly). Nice to see/hear how Alex is programming this stuff and that it is relatively and elegantly straightforward and intuitive ...


----------



## reids

Christof said:


> Can you send me the midi?



The 8dio century strings isn't released yet, so there is no midi file. 8dio just provided these demonstrations via soundcloud. I was interested in finding out if CSS can play in this style as well with the 'Dynamic Bowings'. It would be nice if you could try to play your improvisation and interpretation of the two short demo examples by 8dio using CSS. Look forward to hearing your version of these. Thanks


----------



## reids

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> I would like to add something: I love that thread here because everyone is contributing so much input and work and thats really great community here so glad that something like that is happening. Thank you for that. Love you!



Indeed. I think most people here including myself feel the same way..lots of great contributions, support, and input. While everyone is still picking apart this library, do you know if CSS can do dynamic bowings? I couldn't find any other information about this. Feel free to post a demo comparison with CSS if you like of the two 8dio 'arcs' demos I listed earlier.


----------



## zacnelson

sekkosiki said:


> I tested how Soaring Strings would do with Blakus piece:
> 
> I used Sustain Soft patches for the quieter parts and sustain and legato patches for the louder parts.



This sounds great! Well done. Did you add any reverb? It sounds quite dry. Even though Soaring Strings doesn't have much mids, I think it would be possible to add some more mids with EQ


----------



## Blakus

sekkosiki said:


> I tested how Soaring Strings would do with Blakus piece:
> 
> I used Sustain Soft patches for the quieter parts and sustain and legato patches for the louder parts.



Soaring Strings is sounding great, thanks for sharing that sekkosiki, it's interesting to compare it to the other library comparisons using this piece. It fares very well!


----------



## Quodlibet

Just for fun: here is Christof's 'The Robber' with Metropolis Ark & Symphobia 1 (midi only, no editing except keyswitches):


----------



## Penthagram

Just bought the library as well. A quick test. Really inspiring library and very easy to use :


----------



## zacnelson

Penthagram said:


> Just bought the library as well. A quick test. Really inspiring library and very easy to use :



Just beautiful David!! Wow, this is a tremendous advertisement for this library. Do you care to provide any info on EQ or reverb that you applied? And which piano did you use?


----------



## jacobthestupendous

Seeing as it's one of the other libraries _du jour_, has anyone taken a stab at any of these test tracks with Sable?


----------



## Lassi Tani

zacnelson said:


> This sounds great! Well done. Did you add any reverb? It sounds quite dry. Even though Soaring Strings doesn't have much mids, I think it would be possible to add some more mids with EQ



Thanks!  I used Spaces, but I agree it could be wetter. That's possible yes to add a bit more mids with EQ.



Blakus said:


> Soaring Strings is sounding great, thanks for sharing that sekkosiki, it's interesting to compare it to the other library comparisons using this piece. It fares very well!



Thank you Blakus, it's a great composition . For this kind of music Soaring Strings is great.

I would still like to hear a CSS version of Blakus' piece.


----------



## The Darris

I'm interested in hearing how CSS's measured trems would fair against some of JW's Battle of the Heroes.


----------



## brett

@ Christof and others, particularly those of you who work in TV ...

Not having owned CS1 or 2, nor this new library, the impression I have is that Alex's libraries are known for their ease of use and speed. I presume this is the case here? Can you explain if this is so, and why you agree?

I own LASS, HOS, Albion I, ONE, II, Sable, Symphobia 1 and 2 and as a working TV composer have to pump it out at a regular clip when series work is on. This means I favour ensemble patches where possible, and layer or split out separate parts when the ensemble patch isn't cutting it or achieving the sound I'm after, or if I need legato lines. The problem is, mostly ensemble patches (the longs not the shorts which are generally OK) don't suit me or my style of writing. For example, I still favour the Symphobia ens patches because I don't seem to get that sucking sound that can trouble other libs. 

On the legato front, I think LASS and HS kills my other libraries and so I layer with these. I love the auto divisi thing in LASS and while I've been extremely impressed with HS it is a complex beast, heavy on resources and takes more time so I tend to use it (very successfully I might add) as an add-on, specialist library rather than having it in my template full time.

In otherwords, while I can get a great sound from combination of libraries I already own, I struggle to get a great sound quickly, having to use Symphobia for chord like con sords and sustains, the Spitfire libs for shorts and specialist longs like CS trems, flautando etc, LASS and HS for legatos. Basically, it's a lot of stuffing around - I have an idea then have to work my way through every library to see which one can pull it off.

So, this is the long way around to asking how quick is CSS compared to other libraries?

Are the ens patches (long articulations) capable of smooth pad like chords - attack not too hard, no sucking sound if all notes are changing at once.

Are the legato's comparable to LASS and HS (I know this is subjective and others love the legatos in the other libraries I own so I guess I'm asking if the programming or useability is similar in style or sound to LASS and HS)?

Is the CPU or RAM use modest? - How does it compare to other libraries?

Is there a weak point? (every library I own has significant weak points - I've hinted at these above - although my perspective on this is of course unique and likely to be influenced by the way I write or my workflow)

I just don't have time to sweat over the most gorgeous and detailed mockups anymore. Yes, I can get great results with what I have, but I certainly can't get there as quickly as I'd like and would love to find a core library to to speed up my workflow. 

Interested and grateful to hear everyone's thoughts.

Thanks


----------



## Naoki Ohmori

brett said:


> @ Christof and others, particularly those of you who work in TV ...
> 
> Not having owned CS1 or 2, nor this new library, the impression I have is that Alex's libraries are known for their ease of use and speed. I presume this is the case here? Can you explain if this is so, and why you agree?
> 
> I own LASS, HOS, Albion I, ONE, II, Sable, Symphobia 1 and 2 and as a working TV composer have to pump it out at a regular clip when series work is on. This means I favour ensemble patches where possible, and layer or split out separate parts when the ensemble patch isn't cutting it or achieving the sound I'm after, or if I need legato lines. The problem is, mostly ensemble patches (the longs not the shorts which are generally OK) don't suit me or my style of writing. For example, I still favour the Symphobia ens patches because I don't seem to get that sucking sound that can trouble other libs.
> 
> On the legato front, I think LASS and HS kills my other libraries and so I layer with these. I love the auto divisi thing in LASS and while I've been extremely impressed with HS it is a complex beast, heavy on resources and takes more time so I tend to use it (very successfully I might add) as an add-on, specialist library rather than having it in my template full time.
> 
> In otherwords, while I can get a great sound from combination of libraries I already own, I struggle to get a great sound quickly, having to use Symphobia for chord like con sords and sustains, the Spitfire libs for shorts and specialist longs like CS trems, flautando etc, LASS and HS for legatos. Basically, it's a lot of stuffing around - I have an idea then have to work my way through every library to see which one can pull it off.
> 
> So, this is the long way around to asking how quick is CSS compared to other libraries?
> 
> Are the ens patches (long articulations) capable of smooth pad like chords - attack not too hard, no sucking sound if all notes are changing at once.
> 
> Are the legato's comparable to LASS and HS (I know this is subjective and others love the legatos in the other libraries I own so I guess I'm asking if the programming or useability is similar in style or sound to LASS and HS)?
> 
> Is the CPU or RAM use modest? - How does it compare to other libraries?
> 
> Is there a weak point? (every library I own has significant weak points - I've hinted at these above - although my perspective on this is of course unique and likely to be influenced by the way I write or my workflow)
> 
> I just don't have time to sweat over the most gorgeous and detailed mockups anymore. Yes, I can get great results with what I have, but I certainly can't get there as quickly as I'd like and would love to find a core library to to speed up my workflow.
> 
> Interested and grateful to hear everyone's thoughts.
> 
> Thanks



Hi Brett, 

I just purchased CSS and finished the download yesterday. So, I don't have much time to play around with it yet. But I can answer the question about the CPU and RAM usage. 

The CPU usage is around 10% when just loading up five strings on Windows8 i7. 
Each string's RAM usage is around between 600 - 800MB when loading it by default. 
You can save more RAM usage by holding Alt key and clicking unnecessary articulation panels 

So, overall the CPU/RAM usage is pretty low comparing to other huge strings libraries, I suppose.


----------



## Amey Ghule

Christof said:


> I just had fun playing around with the short articulations, incredible how versatile this library can be.




what an awesome track....CSS sounds really promising....great job christof...


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

The Darris said:


> I'm interested in hearing how CSS's measured trems would fair against some of JW's Battle of the Heroes.


I haven´t tracked anyBattle of the heroes but used the measured trems in one of my tracks. Just go into the later parts there I tested them. I think they are really easy to use and you can a lot of stuff like that with them.


----------



## Penthagram

zacnelson said:


> Just beautiful David!! Wow, this is a tremendous advertisement for this library. Do you care to provide any info on EQ or reverb that you applied? And which piano did you use?



Zac, there is no reverb or eq, just the library out of the box with a tiny limiter to push some dbs. nothing else  the piano is the cinematic studio piano as well


----------



## One Dove

How dry are the close mics? As an owner of several VSL and Sample Modeling products, I am relying on VSL Mir Pro for spatialisation, and I would prefer to blend CSS with my other libraries this way. I have read through the thread several times and watched the videos, but have not found anything in regards to this.


----------



## Dirk Ehlert

Hey guys, a lot of ground has already been covered with CSS in this thread, but if you still wanna hear more, I'll be doin a live stream tonite with a close "hands on" on the strings and the Piano. Tune in here  at 9pm UTC+2 (noon PST)
Cheers


----------



## rainierjmartin

Just noticed that Alex has provided us with a little sneak peak of his solo strings library in his piano walkthrough. From what I hear so far, I'm really liking it. You can hear it around the 1 minute mark.


----------



## Dirk Ehlert

Since it was asked to compare the Century Strings Arcs... CSS doesn't have "Arc" bowing per se with 8Dios approach of capturing the actual performance of the players. But since CSS has the re-bow function it's actually possible to emulate this behaviour with the individual string sections (harder to do with the ensemble patch though)
 
I think the rebows are not as pronounced as the Century Strings performances but it gets near. This is the mixed Mic position with a tad of EQ and Lexicon Random Hall.

It seems you can even get a little closer when playing around with the various mic positions.


----------



## Thorsten Meyer

rainierjmartin said:


> Just noticed that Alex has provided with a little sneak peak of his solo strings library in his piano walkthrough. From what I hear so far, I'm really liking it. You can hear it around the 1 minute mark.




“High Country” by Alex Wallbank created with Cinematic Studio Piano and Cinematic Studio Strings

The Piano is indeed very nice. I kind of love it. 

The video below has four parts. I did take the Midi from Alex (Wallbank) which he kindly provided:

- First part of the Video: Piano in the mix 
(out of the box, no additional EQ or reverb applied)

- Second part: Piano solo 
(out of the box, no additional EQ or reverb applied)

- Third part: Piano solo 
(only Altiverb Applied)

- Fourth part: Piano in the mix
(only Altiverb Applied)


----------



## Thorsten Meyer

I am gathering my different pianos and will load a video with compares them based on “High Country” from Alex Wallbank


----------



## Altine Jackson

After a bit of experimentation and as a tip to anyone that wants to do Blakus' piece with CSS, it looks like you generally want to switch to the marcato patches when it comes to an intense vibrato, brighter fortissimo sound. The sustain patches aren't all that much quieter but they are generally a darker tone than the marcatos at that dynamic after more than one note is played in a legato passage (notes that aren't connected don't sound as dramatically different).

I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, since it seems implied that one should swap between the Sus and Marc patches as the situation calls for it (for more definition in fast runs vs a more realistic sound in slow passages, etc.). The one patch only approach in my first attempt was done to be faithful to Blakus' methods in the video, but it wouldn't be the way the library wants to be handled in this case.


----------



## ricoderks

Thorsten Meyer said:


> “High Country” by Alex Wallbank created with Cinematic Studio Piano and Cinematic Studio Strings
> 
> The Piano is indeed very nice. I kind of love it.
> 
> The video below has four parts. I did take the Midi from Alex (Wallbank) which he kindly provided:
> 
> - First part of the Video: Piano in the mix
> (out of the box, no additional EQ or reverb applied)
> 
> - Second part: Piano solo
> (out of the box, no additional EQ or reverb applied)
> 
> - Third part: Piano solo
> (only Altiverb Applied)
> 
> - Fourth part: Piano in the mix
> (only Altiverb Applied)





Altiverb sounds a bit odd on 100% wet level to me... Sounds more like a speaker in a room rather than a piano in the hansa room  And the tempo is way off! The original is faster. All the legato's you hear in your version are not timed correctly anymore. The tempo can be found in the midi track but i guess thats not the point of the video


----------



## Thorsten Meyer

ricoderks said:


> Altiverb sounds a bit odd on 100% wet level to me... Sounds more like a speaker in a room rather than a piano in the hansa room  And the tempo is way off! The original is faster. All the legato's you hear in your version are not timed correctly anymore. The tempo can be found in the midi track but i guess thats not the point of the video



Yep, normal bpm should be 160. I used 110


----------



## Thorsten Meyer

Thorsten Meyer said:


> I am gathering my different pianos and will load a video with compares them based on “High Country” from Alex Wallbank



Cinematic Studio Piano and other pianos (Piano in Blue, Metro Ark I Piano, 8Dio AGE Piano, Intimate Piano, 8Dio 1928 and Piano in 162) playing High Country” from Alex Wallbank. For fun I mixed in Leeds Town Hall Organ, but that did not really work out with the track.

After each piano played through the track I mixed the pianos a bit and later mixed them with Cinema Studio Strings.


----------



## dreamnight92

All the pianos were out of box? 
CS Piano and Piano in blue are my favorite of this comparison. 

How many dynamics layers has CSPiano?


----------



## Thorsten Meyer

dreamnight92 said:


> All the pianos were out of box?
> CS Piano and Piano in blue are my favorite of this comparison.
> 
> How many dynamics layers has CSPiano?


all are out of the box, no EQ or reverb applied


----------



## wst3

Both CS Piano and Piano in Blue impressed me... now I have Piano in Blue, but CS piano was a nice surprise. What really shocked me was the 8Dio 1928 Grand... I think that was my favorite of the bunch, and yet when it came out the demos did not encourage me to spend money... hmm!


----------



## MrCambiata

What distracted me in the 8dio demo was the exaggerated pedal noise. I know you can turn it off and enjoy the tone of the piano itself.


----------



## noxtenebrae17

Thanks for the video comparison Thorsten!

I do think CS Piano sounds the best for this example. Just a wonderfully clear tone that's not overly harsh or wet-sounding.

I'm really enjoying CS Piano. I mainly used Ivory before this, and probably will still on occasion, but I love how CS Piano just fits right into an orchestral mix out of the box. It also sounds great by itself. Definitely worth the money.


----------



## Thorsten Meyer

One piano that got me hooked emotionally is the Ivory (German Concert D). I will wait for a good price and go for it.


----------



## Thorsten Meyer

Thorsten Meyer said:


> Cinematic Studio Piano and other pianos (Piano in Blue, Metro Ark I Piano, 8Dio AGE Piano, Intimate Piano, 8Dio 1928 and Piano in 162) playing High Country” from Alex Wallbank. For fun I mixed in Leeds Town Hall Organ, but that did not really work out with the track.
> 
> After each piano played through the track I mixed the pianos a bit and later mixed them with Cinema Studio Strings.





Here is a audio only version where I recorded the pianos in sequence. In the video I was mixing them also with Cinema Studio Strings.


----------



## midiman

Thorsten Meyer said:


> Cinematic Studio Piano and other pianos (Piano in Blue, Metro Ark I Piano, 8Dio AGE Piano, Intimate Piano, 8Dio 1928 and Piano in 162) playing High Country” from Alex Wallbank. For fun I mixed in Leeds Town Hall Organ, but that did not really work out with the track.
> 
> After each piano played through the track I mixed the pianos a bit and later mixed them with Cinema Studio Strings.




Piano in blue seems to have a huge hiss build up when using the damper pedal. Anyone else hears it?


----------



## Rodney Money

midiman said:


> Piano in blue seems to have a huge hiss build up when using the damper pedal. Anyone else hears it?


Yeah man, but she's just trying to talk to you and invite you into her world.


----------



## dreamnight92

midiman said:


> Piano in blue seems to have a huge hiss build up when using the damper pedal. Anyone else hears it?



True, this makes me prefer CC Piano in this comparison; by the way the noise build up is something to deal with many pianos libraries, because of the nature of the recording: multiple recording for each notes --> noise sum. 

In reality I noticed also some kind of noise also in CSS demos, especially during releases; by the way I think it's something to deal with every kind of sample libraries, especially the ones with multiple layer of stuff.


----------



## Saxer

I thought I have a too many piano libraries already... but I don't own a single one shown in that video! Ok, exept the Metropolis-1 (which is more or less a side fill).

As the music is played using the CSP it sound most natural to me.


----------



## Thorsten Meyer

Another example to help you to get your head around if you want to buy the Cinematic Studio Piano. The Cinematic Studio Strings should be a now brainer and IMHO the piano as well)

Cinematic Studio Piano compared with:
+ 8Dio 1928
+ 8Dio AGE Piano
+ Alicias Keys
+ Piano in Blue 
+ Orchestral Tools Metropolis Ark I Piano
+ Spitfire Labs - Bedlam Piano
+ Spitfire Felt Piano
+ Intimate Piano
+ Piano in 162
+ Iowa Piano
+ Skerratt London Piano

All are out of the box, no EQ changes or reverb added. Please keep in mind that EQ and reverb would change the pianos used drastically and the ones that may not sound so nice to your ear could become much more pleasing to your ears.


----------



## ricoderks

sekkosiki said:


> Thanks!  I used Spaces, but I agree it could be wetter. That's possible yes to add a bit more mids with EQ.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you Blakus, it's a great composition . For this kind of music Soaring Strings is great.
> 
> I would still like to hear a CSS version of Blakus' piece.




Did my best to recreate the theme with CSS Strings for you. I really love the strings!

Solo CSS: 
In Context: 

ps: Sorry Blakus for ruining your beautiful music! Oh wel... I had fun with it


----------



## brett

I know quoting myself is a little self indulgent but does anyone have any comments RE CSS ease and speed of use?

@naoki, thanks!



brett said:


> @ Christof and others, particularly those of you who work in TV ...
> 
> Not having owned CS1 or 2, nor this new library, the impression I have is that Alex's libraries are known for their ease of use and speed. I presume this is the case here? Can you explain if this is so, and why you agree?
> 
> I own LASS, HOS, Albion I, ONE, II, Sable, Symphobia 1 and 2 and as a working TV composer have to pump it out at a regular clip when series work is on. This means I favour ensemble patches where possible, and layer or split out separate parts when the ensemble patch isn't cutting it or achieving the sound I'm after, or if I need legato lines. The problem is, mostly ensemble patches (the longs not the shorts which are generally OK) don't suit me or my style of writing. For example, I still favour the Symphobia ens patches because I don't seem to get that sucking sound that can trouble other libs.
> 
> On the legato front, I think LASS and HS kills my other libraries and so I layer with these. I love the auto divisi thing in LASS and while I've been extremely impressed with HS it is a complex beast, heavy on resources and takes more time so I tend to use it (very successfully I might add) as an add-on, specialist library rather than having it in my template full time.
> 
> In otherwords, while I can get a great sound from combination of libraries I already own, I struggle to get a great sound quickly, having to use Symphobia for chord like con sords and sustains, the Spitfire libs for shorts and specialist longs like CS trems, flautando etc, LASS and HS for legatos. Basically, it's a lot of stuffing around - I have an idea then have to work my way through every library to see which one can pull it off.
> 
> So, this is the long way around to asking how quick is CSS compared to other libraries?
> 
> Are the ens patches (long articulations) capable of smooth pad like chords - attack not too hard, no sucking sound if all notes are changing at once.
> 
> Are the legato's comparable to LASS and HS (I know this is subjective and others love the legatos in the other libraries I own so I guess I'm asking if the programming or useability is similar in style or sound to LASS and HS)?
> 
> Is the CPU or RAM use modest? - How does it compare to other libraries?
> 
> Is there a weak point? (every library I own has significant weak points - I've hinted at these above - although my perspective on this is of course unique and likely to be influenced by the way I write or my workflow)
> 
> I just don't have time to sweat over the most gorgeous and detailed mockups anymore. Yes, I can get great results with what I have, but I certainly can't get there as quickly as I'd like and would love to find a core library to to speed up my workflow.
> 
> Interested and grateful to hear everyone's thoughts.
> 
> Thanks


----------



## Dirk Ehlert

Stream done  Here's the track that came out of the session...

It's pretty much CSS and CSP only with a tad of RoboGuo Cello in the first part.
Video is available on twitch and will be on YT soon.
Cheers


----------



## D-Mott

de_signs said:


> Stream done  Here's the track that came out of the session...
> 
> It's pretty much CSS and CSP only with a tad of RoboGuo Cello in the first part.
> Video is available on twitch and will be on YT soon.
> Cheers



I love the track. Hate the piano sound :D


----------



## zacnelson

I really love what you did Ricoderks


----------



## ricoderks

zacnelson said:


> I really love what you did Ricoderks



Thank you! But the real brains is Blakus here haha!


----------



## D-Mott

Does anyone want to try Hans Zimmer's Spicc Patterns with CSS? :D :D








Nar. Just kidding


----------



## Nathan Allen Pinard

This is a writeup someone from OCRemix did: http://www.samplelibraryreview.com/...ematic-strings-2-vs-cinematic-studio-strings/


----------



## D-Mott

Nathan Allen Pinard said:


> This is a writeup someone from OCRemix did: http://www.samplelibraryreview.com/...ematic-strings-2-vs-cinematic-studio-strings/




Interesting because the sound is quite close between the 2. From what I hear CSS has a little bit more detail in the sound (smaller sections will help with). Though, they both sound great.


----------



## Polarity

D-Mott said:


> Interesting because the sound is quite close between the 2. From what I hear CSS has a little bit more detail in the sound (smaller sections will help with). Though, they both sound great.


I'd say more mids anyway and more vibrato intensity in CSS compared to CS2...


----------



## Lassi Tani

ricoderks said:


> Did my best to recreate the theme with CSS Strings for you. I really love the strings!
> 
> Solo CSS:
> In Context:
> 
> ps: Sorry Blakus for ruining your beautiful music! Oh wel... I had fun with it




Thank you! I like it! Different sound, but I'm liking what I'm hearing. The ff part for violins 1 could've been louder in my opinion . How easy it is to do legato notes with CSS? Does it get bumpy, and does it need a lot of adjustments? I have HS Gold, and it's not the easiest library for legato. Soaring Strings' legato is quite pronounced, and with quiet notes, I have to adjust CC1 and bring it down.


----------



## ricoderks

sekkosiki said:


> Thank you! I like it! Different sound, but I'm liking what I'm hearing. The ff part for violins 1 could've been louder in my opinion . How easy it is to do legato notes with CSS? Does it get bumpy, and does it need a lot of adjustments? I have HS Gold, and it's not the easiest library for legato. Soaring Strings' legato is quite pronounced, and with quiet notes, I have to adjust CC1 and bring it down.



Thanks for the feedback! The legatos a bit different to program than i used to with hollywood strings. Especially because there are 3 different speeds recorded. You can control the speed with velocity. And if im hearing it right there are some speed changes per recorded legato aswell. So what i mean is that the medium legato speed can be a bit slower or faster depending on your velocity. That is really nice! Bit more work maybe. But definitely worth it imo!


----------



## procreative

Only down side for me is the trills being one articulation triggered by pressing 2 notes in either minor or major intervals. Its tricky to play trill chords and also adds extra notes into the midi track.

Anyone know of a way to circumvent this? In Logic I found a midi fx plugin called harmoniser and I could set up a minor 2nd instance and major 2nd instance of it but no way to switch between them!

Maybe I am being a bit pedantic over this but I have no other library that does trills this way, they are either 2 articulations or keyswitched.


----------



## Darryl Jackson

Berlin Woodwinds handles trills in a similar way (both notes need to be played, though the timing is different between CSS and BWW). But yes, both libraries are the exception rather than the norm.

Edit: Also, for the most part BWW allows you to follow the 2 articulations approach if you use Capsule instead of the individual patches.


----------



## D-Mott

procreative said:


> Only down side for me is the trills being one articulation triggered by pressing 2 notes in either minor or major intervals. Its tricky to play trill chords and also adds extra notes into the midi track.
> 
> Anyone know of a way to circumvent this? In Logic I found a midi fx plugin called harmoniser and I could set up a minor 2nd instance and major 2nd instance of it but no way to switch between them!
> 
> Maybe I am being a bit pedantic over this but I have no other library that does trills this way, they are either 2 articulations or keyswitched.




It is a down side yes. I don't think I know any library that allows you to play realistic custom trills. You can try with the legato samples, but it's too slow to be able to achieve a convincing trill sound.


----------



## wbacer

D-Mott said:


> It is a down side yes. I don't think I know any library that allows you to play realistic custom trills. You can try with the legato samples, but it's too slow to be able to achieve a convincing trill sound.


If you are using Logic X, Peter Schwartz is working on an update script to ARTzID that will allow you to play one finger whole and half step trills with Cinematic Studio Strings. I tried out a beta version the other night and it works great.


----------



## Flux

Now that the library has been out for a bit, would you guys recommend it to someone who has CS2 and HW Strings (through Composer Cloud)? The HW stuff is temporary for me since I won't stay on composer cloud forever, but if the library is too similar to CS2 I feel like I can't quite justify paying for just harmonics and measured tremelo unless the sample quality is significantly better.


----------



## milesito

Flux said:


> Now that the library has been out for a bit, would you guys recommend it to someone who has CS2 and HW Strings (through Composer Cloud)? The HW stuff is temporary for me since I won't stay on composer cloud forever, but if the library is too similar to CS2 I feel like I can't quite justify paying for just harmonics and measured tremelo unless the sample quality is significantly better.


Flux CS2 and HS were my go to string libraries for years. I got Css and feel it was completely worth while. To me is sounds a bit like a combo of hs and cs2. It is more defined than cs2, the portamentos are way better but it is very easy to use like cs2. Also the positioning of the instruments in the stereo field of the mics to me sounds more like HS.


----------



## Flux

milesito said:


> Flux CS2 and HS were my go to string libraries for years. I got Css and feel it was completely worth while. To me is sounds a bit like a combo of hs and cs2. It is more defined than cs2, the portamentos are way better but it is very easy to use like cs2. Also the positioning of the instruments in the stereo field of the mics to me sounds more like HS.



Thanks for the helpful information. Is there anything you don't like about CSS compared to HS?


----------



## milesito

Flux said:


> Thanks for the helpful information. Is there anything you don't like about CSS compared to HS?


Good question. Not yet at the moment except that HS comes with even more articulations, but hogs more resources and is harder to program the legates. But the measured tremolo function in Css to me is really useful.


----------



## JohnBMears

milesito said:


> Good question. Not yet at the moment except that HS comes with even more articulations, but hogs more resources and is harder to program the legates. But the measured tremolo function in Css to me is really useful.



Thanks for your info. Would you forcast CSS to be a good match to layer with HS? I'm liking the sound of CSS shorts but still like HS longs.


----------



## ricoderks

Did another quick test with the measured tremolos from CSS. Little extract from 10 Cloverfield Lane by Bear McCreary:

CSS Only:


CSS Context:


----------



## ricoderks

JohnBMears said:


> Thanks for your info. Would you forcast CSS to be a good match to layer with HS? I'm liking the sound of CSS shorts but still like HS longs.



I've tried to match the eq from CSS to HS here too. Works great actually. Violins 1 in HS are way brighter compared to CSS but you can get pretty close!


----------



## milesito

JohnBMears said:


> Thanks for your info. Would you forcast CSS to be a good match to layer with HS? I'm liking the sound of CSS shorts but still like HS longs.


I have CSS and HS in my template and they are pretty well matched now for layering and even for playing different parts in the same piece...especially since the tone and placement of the instruments (natural panning) are somewhat similar.


----------



## reutunes

I reviewed Cinematic Studio Strings for this week's Samplecast. Very impressed overall with a few niggles. Check it out:


----------



## zacnelson

Thanks, that youtube video was very helpful Mr SampleCast


----------



## Gabriel Oliveira

reutunes said:


> I reviewed Cinemtic Solo Strings for this week's Samplecast.



No, you did not


----------



## jacobthestupendous

Gabriel Oliveira said:


> No, you did not


Let's not start that again.


----------



## 5Lives

Any more comparisons to Berlin Strings or perhaps Mural / LASS?


----------



## Gabriel Oliveira

jacobthestupendous said:


> Let's not start that again.



but he didn't, mom!


----------



## Zhao Shen

Alex W said:


> Yep, the rest of the orchestra is on its way, and will all be recorded in position and fully balanced out-of-the-box. Glad you liked my demos - I used no reverb or eq on any of them, with just a bit of mastering compression on the tracks with other elements - drums, percussion etc - to boost the volume and gel things together as needed.


Hey Alex, I was wondering if you'd be able to tell us if the solo cello that can be heard in the video below is from Cinematic Studio Solo Strings... I see the little "CSSS Solo Cello" patch working away toward the bottom of the Kontakt window, but it sounds almost too good to be true. If it really is from CSSS, that would be...uh...pretty extraordinary.


----------



## capitaljazz

From the readme file of that demo:
_
"I included the solo cello part as an audio file, which was performed with our new solo strings library (currently in the works)."_

So I guess it is from their yet to be released solo strings library. Sounds nice.


----------



## Zhao Shen

capitaljazz said:


> From the readme file of that demo:
> _
> "I included the solo cello part as an audio file, which was performed with our new solo strings library (currently in the works)."_
> 
> So I guess it is from their yet to be released solo strings library. Sounds nice.


"Nice." Yeah I'd go further than that... the legato is damn near seamless.


----------



## reutunes

Gabriel Oliveira said:


> No, you did not


Congrats - you spotted my deliberate mistake - I meant "Cinematic Studio Strings" - your prize is in the mail


----------



## MrCambiata

This cello has my attention too, sounds beautiful in this context. Waiting till it's out, hopefully soon...


----------



## DDK

Hi Alex 
Any plans to expand the strings in the future with more articulations?
Thanks
Dave


----------



## Ashermusic

BTW, I can't seem to find where to download the MIDI files.


----------



## Mucusman

Ashermusic said:


> BTW, I can't seem to find where to download the MIDI files.



The MIDI files are in the comments section on each the published YouTube video demos/walk-throughs.


----------



## Ashermusic

Mucusman said:


> The MIDI files are in the comments section on each the published YouTube video demos/walk-throughs.




Ah, thanks, i was watching them on the CSS site.


----------



## URL

I have Cs2 and Css is different but I purchased Sable at disc. reduced price and it sounds so fantastic in the high end...


----------



## muziksculp

Hi,

I wonder how soon we will see the other libraries in the Cinematic Series being released ? i.e. Solo Strings, Woodwinds, Brass ? Which one will be out next ? (according to their website, they will be out this year)

The Perc. library will be released in 2017.

Thanks,
Muziksculp


----------



## Jackles

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> I wonder how soon we will see the other libraries in the Cinematic Series being released ? i.e. Solo Strings, Woodwinds, Brass ? Which one will be out next ? (according to their website, they will be out this year)
> 
> The Perc. library will be released in 2017.
> 
> Thanks,
> Muziksculp



That would be pretty amazing. Such great libraries (if the other sections are as good as the strings), coming out of nowhere, that quick ! Too good to be true.


----------



## dreamnight92

...and so bad for my wallets


----------



## Zhao Shen

Zhao Shen said:


> "Nice." Yeah I'd go further than that... the legato is damn near seamless.


OK seems I was wrong. After looking at the MIDI and WAV stuff, seems that the exposed cello part is a live performance and the CSSS solo cello is an incredibly quiet part.


----------



## Steve Lum

Perennial lurker here - first post actually, I think. Like most of us, I was stricken by the happy lightning bolt that is Alex's new CSS. Also, like many, I wasn't sure there was room in my life for another string library (have CS2, cinestrings, all kirk hunter, adagietto, etc). But there was/is and I jumped on this. 

To be sure, there was a paradigm shift in technique, as I adopted the CC58 approach. But after about three days I am "happy as a pig in s**t", as they say... somewhere. Probably not a perfectly complimentary analogy, but heartfelt, nonetheless.

For the first time, I think ever, I can get exactly the performance (vis a vis programming) I am after from these strings. To be fair, most of my applications are aggressive - orchestral rock (which is why shorts are important to me - also the marcato with overlay). By example, I had to leave off advanced legato and stay with standard, as I have few instances where the long legato transitions fit well. But the ability to get that fast legato when needed (just by velocity) is flippin awesome. The marcato legato... love it. And to be free of keyswitches... lord have mercy, thank you. I will be buying each iteration of the studio series as soon as they are available - dying to have this utility in my winds and brass - this is the way to go for me.

As noted elsewhere, there are some issues with scripting, and I hope they will be addressed soon, but I am able to get around those (sadly this intersects with my primary concern, vibrato control - I'm not "there" yet, since non-vib standard legato is funky, but I can live with the caffeinated first chair for now).

I feel like this library doesn't "smudge" out, like so many others do. It stays fairly crisp and transparent, but can also mellow out and pad in support. Lovin' it and had to shout out to Wallbank. Well done sir.


----------



## prodigalson

Zhao Shen said:


> OK seems I was wrong. After looking at the MIDI and WAV stuff, seems that the exposed cello part is a live performance and the CSSS solo cello is an incredibly quiet part.



Actually, Zhao I think you were right the first time. I just downloaded and checked the MIDI and it looks like to me the the Audio file is a rendering of the CSSS Solo Cello. I think the reason it's an audio file is because obviously noone has that library yet so it would be pointless supplying the MIDI alone (although the midi is there too).

And you're right, it sounds really really nice.

Here's a version of it with the solo cello boosted quite a bit to hear clearer...I added a touch of EMT 140 for a shiny reverb.


----------



## muziksculp

Jackles said:


> That would be pretty amazing. Such great libraries (if the other sections are as good as the strings), coming out of nowhere, that quick ! Too good to be true.



It might happen sooner than we expect, which would be wonderful, especially if they have already been recorded/sampled and edited and are in the tweaking, scripting, and other details stage. Alex might have been working on producing these libraries for some years following the release of CS2. He mentioned that in some of his replies in the past. But, it was a total mystery at that time.


----------



## milesito

prodigalson said:


> Actually, Zhao I think you were right the first time. I just downloaded and checked the MIDI and it looks like to me the the Audio file is a rendering of the CSSS Solo Cello. I think the reason it's an audio file is because obviously noone has that library yet so it would be pointless supplying the MIDI alone (although the midi is there too).
> 
> And you're right, it sounds really really nice.
> 
> Here's a version of it with the solo cello boosted quite a bit to hear clearer...I added a touch of EMT 140 for a shiny reverb.



I read also it is a live cello in the recording


----------



## JohnBMears

muziksculp said:


> It might happen sooner than we expect, which would be wonderful, especially if they have already been recorded/sampled and edited and are in the tweaking, scripting, and other details stage. Alex might have been working on producing these libraries for some years following the release of CS2. He mentioned that in some of his replies in the past. But, it was a total mystery at that time.



I was told in an email that they were busy working on Solo Strings and Brass right now, and they are up next for release. I believe recording is done and they are in scripting.


----------



## muziksculp

JohnBMears said:


> I was told in an email that they were busy working on Solo Strings and Brass right now, and they are up next for release. I believe recording is done and they are in scripting.



That's awesome ! 

Thanks for the feedback.


----------



## prodigalson

milesito said:


> I read also it is a live cello in the recording



Is this not what you're talking about? from Alex's read me in the MIDI file

_"I included the solo cello part as an audio file, *which was performed with our new solo strings library (currently in the works)*."_


----------



## Lawson.

I'm quite sure that cello is sampled, unless my ears are deceiving me. You can hear the slurred legato transitions are pretty continuous throughout, yet the sound stays intense the whole time. Real cello players don't have infinite bow lengths!


----------



## garylionelli

Just got these strings, they are truly amazing. Best library I've used in years. Question 1: mod wheel low values seem to have less vibrato (which is a good thing), and as you ramp up the mod wheel there is more vibrato (along with greater dynamic expression). Am I understanding this correctly? Question 2: cc2 controls the crossfade between non-vibrato and vibrato (too?), but at its lowest settings vibrato is minimal but notes lose their sustain and cut out. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. Question 3: How does cc2 crossfade vibrato work in conjunction with vibrato intensity from the mod wheel? Thx.


----------



## Gzu

garylionelli said:


> Just got these strings, they are truly amazing. Best library I've used in years. Question 1: mod wheel low values seem to have less vibrato (which is a good thing), and as you ramp up the mod wheel there is more vibrato (along with greater dynamic expression). Am I understanding this correctly? Question 2: cc2 controls the crossfade between non-vibrato and vibrato (too?), but at its lowest settings vibrato is minimal but notes lose their sustain and cut out. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. Question 3: How does cc2 crossfade vibrato work in conjunction with vibrato intensity from the mod wheel? Thx.



Have to agree with you...in my opinion this library sounds marvelous, one of the best, if not the best I've heard so far.
About your 2nd question, a bug as been identified and Alex will fix that in a future update.


----------



## Thorsten Meyer

The Cinematic Studio Piano in comparison performs very well, see video below. Cinematic Studio Piano offers great quality for a very reasonable price point.


All out of the box, that means no EQ and reverb applied.

The Hammersmith Grand (PROFESSIONAL EDITION)
Broken Wurli
AGE Piano
Stage 73 (EP73 DECONSTRUCTED)
8Dio 1928
Piano in Blue
Cinematic Studio Piano (CSP)
Intimate Piano-Cosy
Intimate Piano
Alicias Keys
Piano in 162





Thorsten Meyer said:


> Another example to help you to get your head around if you want to buy the Cinematic Studio Piano. The Cinematic Studio Strings should be a now brainer and IMHO the piano as well)
> 
> Cinematic Studio Piano compared with:
> + 8Dio 1928
> + 8Dio AGE Piano
> + Alicias Keys
> + Piano in Blue
> + Orchestral Tools Metropolis Ark I Piano
> + Spitfire Labs - Bedlam Piano
> + Spitfire Felt Piano
> + Intimate Piano
> + Piano in 162
> + Iowa Piano
> + Skerratt London Piano
> 
> All are out of the box, no EQ changes or reverb added. Please keep in mind that EQ and reverb would change the pianos used drastically and the ones that may not sound so nice to your ear could become much more pleasing to your ears.


----------



## Ashermusic

I just got CSS. I will be writing a review for macProVideo.com next month, so all I will say for now is that for me, it is right up there with HS, if not as articulation rich.


----------



## Christof

For my needs it has all the articulations I need.


----------



## Saxer

Ponticelli would be nice...


----------



## bigcat1969

Wow someone really put the Iowa and Skerratt London in the same demo as 8Dio stuff? Should I laugh or cry?


----------



## Pianistikboy

Finally, I post my first try with Cinematic Studio Strings, it's really an awesome library. I also work with Hollywood string for few years, but I can say that with CSS, at long last a huge step has been taken in the virtual string libraries field. It is my first impressions after having worked with it today. P.S. I plan to post a version with a real choir soon, so, keep tuned.


----------



## Fer

Pianistikboy said:


> Finally, I post my first try with Cinematic Studio Strings, it's really an awesome library. I also work with Hollywood string for few years, but I can say that with CSS, at long last a huge step has been taken in the virtual string libraries field. It is my first impressions after having worked with it today. P.S. I plan to post a version with a real choir soon, so, keep tuned.



Wow, these strings sounds really expressive and emotional... and beautiful composition!


----------



## Malo

Beautiful writing, Anthony! Excellent performance, as well! It is very refreshing to hear music like this in demoes. CSS is evidently also very well suited for more poetic music. Bravo!


----------



## zacnelson

Pianistikboy said:


> Finally, I post my first try with Cinematic Studio Strings, it's really an awesome library. I also work with Hollywood string for few years, but I can say that with CSS, at long last a huge step has been taken in the virtual string libraries field. It is my first impressions after having worked with it today. P.S. I plan to post a version with a real choir soon, so, keep tuned.



Beautiful work, I was wondering did you do any EQ or reverb on this?


----------



## Pianistikboy

Thank you guys for your kind words. The demo I've posted here is purelly out of the box. No EQ, no reverb at all, only the sound of CSS. You need to work a few hours with cc1 and this is the result. I'm actually working on the real choir + orchestra version and I can tell you that it sounds totally amazing to my ears. I think I will post an extract tomorrow. I never had such sound before. To those who still hesitate to buy this vst, do not hesitate anymore, it's really worth the price (and I don't work for Cinematic Studio Series) .


----------



## Pianistikboy

This said, I don't know if CSS is suitable for all style of music like, for example epic style music. I haven't tested this. It's new for me and I hope that I don't get over enthusiastic. In every case, for my music style it's good.


----------



## AllanH

There is definitely an intrinsic beauty that comes out in slower pieces.


----------



## Malo

@Anthony: Did you need to turn legato on and off during the piece, or could you do this with one setting throughout?

Is this con sordino?


----------



## Pianistikboy

Yes the legato button is on and in advanced mode for all 5 sections during all the piece. No sordino for this piece.


----------



## brett

How fast can you program CSS compared to other string libraries? I'm concerned with speed here, keeping the time spent massaging CCs manageable!


----------



## g.c.

Darryl Jackson said:


> Berlin Woodwinds handles trills in a similar way (both notes need to be played, though the timing is different between CSS and BWW). But yes, both libraries are the exception rather than the norm.
> 
> Edit: Also, for the most part BWW allows you to follow the 2 articulations approach if you use Capsule instead of the individual patches.


Vsl has the same option as well. Or you can create trills with Kontakt instruments where you can get under the hood with Wips Legato scripting.


----------



## milesito

brett said:


> How fast can you program CSS compared to other string libraries? I'm concerned with speed here, keeping the time spent massaging CCs manageable!


Relative to most of my libraries that I use regularly it is as easy as it gets. In fact it besides a great sound, it is one of best reasons to get this library in my opinion ...


----------



## brett

brett said:


> How fast can you program CSS compared to other string libraries? I'm concerned with speed here, keeping the time spent massaging CCs manageable!





milesito said:


> Relative to most of my libraries that I use regularly it is as easy as it gets. In fact it besides a great sound, it is one of best reasons to get this library in my opinion ...



Thanks milesito. Interested in more opinions. With deadlines becoming ever more pressing, the speed of programming has become a major consideration when purchasing a library.


----------



## Malo

Pianistikboy said:


> Yes the legato button is on and in advanced mode for all 5 sections during all the piece.


Thank you! Good to know.



> No sordino for this piece.


I see. This library seems quite dark in tone, then. Not a lot of high frequency content, especially in the softer dynamic layers.


----------



## zeng

When musical sampling's soaring strings came out, we read similar good comments about and I think they have a similar sound. Is CSS better than soaring strings? (I know Soaring Strings have less articulations than CSS, so I am asking this for only sound & programability comparison).


----------



## Mundano

Thorsten Meyer said:


> Another example to help you to get your head around if you want to buy the Cinematic Studio Piano. The Cinematic Studio Strings should be a now brainer and IMHO the piano as well)
> 
> Cinematic Studio Piano compared with:
> + 8Dio 1928
> + 8Dio AGE Piano
> + Alicias Keys
> + Piano in Blue
> + Orchestral Tools Metropolis Ark I Piano
> + Spitfire Labs - Bedlam Piano
> + Spitfire Felt Piano
> + Intimate Piano
> + Piano in 162
> + Iowa Piano
> + Skerratt London Piano
> 
> All are out of the box, no EQ changes or reverb added. Please keep in mind that EQ and reverb would change the pianos used drastically and the ones that may not sound so nice to your ear could become much more pleasing to your ears.





Thorsten Meyer said:


> The Cinematic Studio Piano in comparison performs very well, see video below. Cinematic Studio Piano offers great quality for a very reasonable price point.
> 
> 
> All out of the box, that means no EQ and reverb applied.
> 
> The Hammersmith Grand (PROFESSIONAL EDITION)
> Broken Wurli
> AGE Piano
> Stage 73 (EP73 DECONSTRUCTED)
> 8Dio 1928
> Piano in Blue
> Cinematic Studio Piano (CSP)
> Intimate Piano-Cosy
> Intimate Piano
> Alicias Keys
> Piano in 162






Thorsten Meyer said:


> Cinematic Studio Piano and other pianos (Piano in Blue, Metro Ark I Piano, 8Dio AGE Piano, Intimate Piano, 8Dio 1928 and Piano in 162) playing High Country” from Alex Wallbank. For fun I mixed in Leeds Town Hall Organ, but that did not really work out with the track.
> 
> After each piano played through the track I mixed the pianos a bit and later mixed them with Cinema Studio Strings.




here my 2cents with new released @Hans Adamson 's Supergrand (44.1kHz, 24bits, MP3) outofthebox:
https://clyp.it/p2ohzg12


----------



## NoamL

I am late to this thread, but... holy crap... 

This is a minority opinion on VIC... but for me, *LASS 2* is simply It when it comes to string libs. I say this as a cellist... No doubt there are aspects of the lib that are a pain to work with but its legato is seamless and expressive, the dynamic range is unbelievable, and the shorts/fast legato are easily more convincing than similar-sized HWS and Mural, while standing up very well to the smaller detailed sound of Sable & BST. In addition, LASS is the only library on the market with REAL divisi + REAL sordino. The only downfall of the library is its finicky tone which isn't 100% fixed by any of the onboard Stage/Color algorithms. That is a small price to pay for a library that sounds real and familiar to my experience playing in orchestras. I own EWQLSO, Mural, Albion, and have had opportunities to monkey around with HWS, Cinestrings, MA, BST and a few other libs working for/with other composers, and I've _never_ felt like any other lib was really giving LASS a run for its money as my main template for strings.

This library changes that. The tone and mix balance you get out of the box with CSS is *simply astonishing.* It nails the *rich,* *delicious* cinematic tone while not being overly "polished" to the point of inflexibility (my main beef with HWS, which otherwise has a riveting cinematic tone).

The expressiveness of the legato is easily on a par with LASS. I remember seeing @Blakus's string comparison video years ago and thinking "Yep LASS wins" (especially when HWS and BST struggled quite a bit with the fast First Vlns turn towards the end); CSS is as good as LASS here.

The sordinos aren't real but the sound is passable.

What truly made up my mind is when I imported Christof's "The Robber" into LASS this afternoon. This piece is supposed to be in LASS's wheelhouse. Even LASS's critics acknowledge that its spiccatos are great. I cannot make the piece sound as wonderful as Christof's original (even though the dynamic range is clearly narrower in CSS than LASS).

Finally... those measured tremolos.. *no* other library that I've heard has sampled measured trems as well as this library.

The one thing that's missing for me in CSS is a bit of "first chair sound" and human imperfection. I planned to mix CSS with the first chairs from LASS but then I saw there is a Solo Strings library already in the works. Amazing!

Saving up for this lib starting RIGHTNOW

*P.S. *The "in-the-same-room-ness" of the sections is really quite convincing even compared to every other library that advertises this feature. Not only are the sections in the right places but it seems to me that the sound "glues" together better than LASS, HWS and BST. Clearly there is some top tier mixing talent working behind the scenes on this library. I could not be more excited for the solo strings, woodwind and brass libraries to follow.


----------



## Vik

Since so many seem to agree both that while LASS is great, it would have been a lot better with a simpler user interface and better samples, I hope they are working on a follow up. 

Did anyone post a LASS version of The Robber yet?


----------



## NoamL

Vik said:


> Since so many seem to agree both that while LASS is great, it would have been a lot better with a simpler user interface and better samples, I hope they are working on a follow up.



Not to derail the thread but I find that LASS is extremely usable after the Day 1 setup hassle. I have only 10 tracks (1sts Long, 1sts Short, 2nds Long, 2nds Short etc) and everything else is handled via KS, without ever having to dive into Kontakt itself or load patches. Wish I could say the same for Hollywood Brass...

For anyone who doesn't like using LASS's UI, @Guy Rowland has a great video about setting it up in a no-future-hassles way.



Vik said:


> Did anyone post a LASS version of The Robber yet?



There was one earlier in the thread but it uses the Staccato not Spiccato art which is not the right way to approach the piece imo.

I will post a LASS take on The Robber tomorrow after work; I wanna do it justice though.


----------



## Silence-is-Golden

As an additio


NoamL said:


> Not to derail the thread but I find that LASS is extremely usable after the Day 1 setup hassle. I have only 10 tracks (1sts Long, 1sts Short, 2nds Long, 2nds Short etc) and everything else is handled via KS, without ever having to dive into Kontakt itself or load patches. Wish I could say the same for Hollywood Brass...
> 
> For anyone who doesn't like using LASS's UI, @Guy Rowland has a great video about setting it up in a no-future-hassles way.
> 
> 
> 
> There was one earlier in the thread but it uses the Staccato not Spiccato art which is not the right way to approach the piece imo.
> 
> I will post a LASS take on The Robber tomorrow after work; I wanna do it justice though.


As an addition to LASS setup perils, there is a section in the 2.5 release that is called "special" (if I recall correctly) and along with 2 tutorials and their website regarding the template setup with all articulations, they have covered all my setup needs. And it is done in an hour or so.


----------



## Jackles

Ashermusic said:


> I just got CSS. I will be writing a review for macProVideo.com next month, so all I will say for now is that for me, it is right up there with HS, if not as articulation rich.



So you finally did it... 



Pianistikboy said:


> Finally, I post my first try with Cinematic Studio Strings, it's really an awesome library. I also work with Hollywood string for few years, but I can say that with CSS, at long last a huge step has been taken in the virtual string libraries field. It is my first impressions after having worked with it today. P.S. I plan to post a version with a real choir soon, so, keep tuned.




That's it, I'm buying this #&$ !


----------



## passsacaglia

Jackles said:


> So you finally did it...
> 
> 
> 
> That's it, I'm buying this #&$ !


Haha! I will too, just need to wait for some moneeyh and the email with my edu code  

I think the guys are pretty busy so if anyone is still waiting for an email response I think you're not the only ones. Although I will prob email them (John) again before July ends so I can buy the piano for 50% of the price!


----------



## Pianistikboy

As promised, this is CSS in context with a real choir and a harp on my piece 'Libera me'. 

The same CSS strings in context but, without the choir :


CSS strings purely Out of the box (no EQ, no effects) :


----------



## HardyP

Pianistikboy said:


> As promised, this is CSS in context with a real choir and a harp on my piece 'Libera me'.


Sooooo touching.... thank you very much for sharing this!!
I really would like to sing in this choir, standing behind that great orchestra... or even better be the conductor in front of them!


----------



## zacnelson

That choir is of an excellent standard


----------



## Ashermusic

Jackles said:


> So you finally did it...



Uhmmmm, not yet. I don't want to say too much as it is early days yet with it for me.


----------



## Pianistikboy

HardyP said:


> Sooooo touching.... thank you very much for sharing this!!
> I really would like to sing in this choir, standing behind that great orchestra... or even better be the conductor in front of them!


Me too I wish I could attend this moment when the premiere with choir and orchestra will be given in concert. But before, that I have to complete the orchestra score.


zacnelson said:


> That choir is of an excellent standard


Oh yes, it is The East Central University Chorale, from Oklahoma. The quality level of this ensemble is stunning and the conductor really understand what is music and he also knows how to give it life and beauty !


----------



## jsp21

Pianistikboy said:


> This said, I don't know if CSS is suitable for all style of music....



This is exactly what bothers me too! 

I love the lush, dark tone of CSS but, to me, it sounds similar to a blended string section with half playing con sordino and the other normale—I'm not sure how flexible this tone can be. Plus, I already have a decent collection of string libraries, and HS Diamond has been my go-to for some time. While HS can sometimes be a hassle to program, I find that its "neutral" tone and wide array of mic positions offer greater flexibility than anything else I've come across.

I think I'll wait for the rest of the CSS series before I pull the trigger.


----------



## RMusic

Pulled the trigger. The quality of the samples stand out to me. I'll be using CSS along with Albion I + Solo Series, Metropolis Ark, and NI's Symphonic Series String Ensemble for my string needs. I wasn't actually planning on this library but the samples, a/b comparisons, and interface sold me.

As for the dark tone comments I'd say that some of the other brighter libraries have had a little hardware magic introduced into the signal at least to my ear. Obviously nice harmonic signal but to me CSS sounds very organic... I can easily add those harmonics back in if I want via stuff like Waves NSL / Ozone's Exciter / State Digital Virtual Consoles. I feel like I'll have plenty of control over tone in the mix.


----------



## HardyP

Regarding the tone -
I think there was a demo some pages earlier, where someone tweaked the EQ a little bit in the Highs, and it definitely got nicely brighter, so it seems "it´s in there"…
Unfortunately I do not have the time to lurk back - hey, it´s 26 pages until now!?!


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

HardyP said:


> Regarding the tone -
> I think there was a demo some pages earlier, where someone tweaked the EQ a little bit in the Highs, and it definitely got nicely brighter, so it seems "it´s in there"…
> Unfortunately I do not have the time to lurk back - hey, it´s 26 pages until now!?!



At 12 KHz you can add a bit highs. I remember I posted that.


----------



## Malo

That 12k boost worked very well in Alexander's example. I'm not sure it would work equally well in the soft dynamic layers found in Anthony's lovely piece. I could be wrong, though.


----------



## Steve Lum

In my experience, the cc control approach is about as easy as it gets. It took me a number of hours to sort out the interaction of velocity and expression with the articulations, but very soon I was zooming along. I keep the cc58-to-articulations map pinned up alongside my monitor. Developing a decent mechanic with your DAW controls is part of the curve (in my case, I dispensed with cc envelopes and went back to piano roll view cc entry). Chase back is wonderful but there is one catch: the toggles do not get any relief from chase-back (sordino on/off, and legato on/off), so you still need to keep track of that.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Malo said:


> That 12k boost worked very well in Alexander's example. I'm not sure it would work equally well in the soft dynamic layers found in Anthony's lovely piece. I could be wrong, though.



Yes, I mean..it is not mandatory, I love the strings anyways. I used that boost for the strings in that practise track as well. Also I tested how the strings behave in different speeds and situations. While the first part is more uplifiting legato lyrical, the second section is fast aggressive, and the third one is more melodic but quite, later loud.


----------



## passsacaglia

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Yes, I mean..it is not mandatory, I love the strings anyways. I used that boost for the strings in that practise track as well. Also I tested how the strings behave in different speeds and situations. While the first part is more uplifiting legato lyrical, the second section is fast aggressive, and the third one is more melodic but quite, later loud.



This one is great! Curious maybe it has been discussed but what winds and brass did you go with?


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

passsacaglia said:


> This one is great! Curious maybe it has been discussed but what winds and brass did you go with?



No, it wasn´t discussed though, maybe I post later a version in members compositions. I used for brass a mix of Hollywood Brass (French Horns, Trumpets, Trombones, Tuba), MA 1(Tubas), Strezov Sampling (French Horns), Winds are a mix of VSL Special Edition (Flute 1, Piccolo), HOW (Oboe, Clarinet, Bassoon), Strezov Sampling (Flutes). Strings are CSS only though


----------



## Vik

NoamL said:


> Not to derail the thread but I find that LASS is extremely usable after the Day 1 setup hassle.


It seems that CSS (along with some others) are representing a new generation of libraries, and as a person who almost chose LASS at some point, I must admit that I still don't understand that whatever all LASS users need to do before they can get started using it isn't a process that the company behind LASS did for them before shipping the product. As you say, there are aspects of the lib that are a pain to work with (is this true even after the first day?), and user-friendliness has come a long way since LASS was released more than five years ago. 

In the future, all good libs will probably have polyphonic legato, auto-arranger/auto-divisi, rebowing, true con sordinos and adaptive legato. Meanwhile, we need to combine the best from the best libraries, and at least in terms of what I've heard so far, CSS is up there with the really good ones, even if it may not have an as rich set of articulations as eg. the best Spitfire products.


----------



## ysnyvz

Amazing library. Looking forward to rest of the series. Here is my first try with it:


----------



## Batrawi

Anyone here owning both LASS and CSS?

IMHO, LASS with its smooth legato transitions (handling very well slowest glissando to fastest runs) is by far closer to the real thing than any kontakt library till date.

So I'm really tempted to buy CSS if it's similar to LASS in this aspect.

So any advice here?

Note:from the demos, CSS' fast runs didn't sound convincing to me or at least as good as LASS'. But maybe I'm wrong


----------



## Saxer

Here's my first CSS track


----------



## Batrawi

NoamL said:


> The expressiveness of the legato is easily on a par with LASS. I remember seeing @Blakus's string comparison video years ago and thinking "Yep LASS wins" (especially when HWS and BST struggled quite a bit with the fast First Vlns turn towards the end); CSS is as good as LASS here..



I'm really about to buy CSS just for this. 

But does it really match to LASS's leg/port/gliss?

I've listened carefully to almost every CSS demo so far to compare its legato with LASS and my conclusion is:
-standard legato: draw
-portamento: draw (CSS sounds a bit more authentic/natural to my ears though)
-glissando: LASS wins (not even available in CSS i think)
-fast legato: LASS wins (CSS unfortunately didn't sound convincing to me from the demos and the notes didn't even sound connected... but maybe the demo wasn't fair)

You are probably in better position to validate my above conclusion since you've actually played with both libraries.


----------



## zeng

Batrawi said:


> I'm really about to buy CSS just for this.
> 
> But does it really match to LASS's leg/port/gliss?
> 
> I've listened carefully to almost every CSS demo so far to compare its legato with LASS and my conclusion is:
> -standard legato: draw
> -portamento: draw (CSS sounds a bit more authentic/natural to my ears though)
> -glissando: LASS wins (not even available in CSS i think)
> -fast legato: LASS wins (CSS unfortunately didn't sound convincing to me from the demos and the notes didn't even sound connected... but maybe the demo wasn't fair)
> 
> You are probably in better position to validate my above conclusion since you've actually played with both libraries.



So if we have LASS, should we still buy CSS or not?


----------



## Allegro

Been following this thread for the past couple of days. Some really good examples and demos so far!
Speaking of LASS vs CSS. Which library can better handle such melodies (check example clip)?
Can someone do such a melody with CSS and post results here? Doesn't have to be this specific line. Anything William-esque or going back and forth around a note at a similar tempo will do.
In the example V1 + V2 are playing in octaves.


----------



## NYC Composer

I don't know exactly how they did it, but LASS legato is hands down more agile than any other, and I say this as an owner of CS2, HWS, Soaring Strings, LASS full and a few others. Berlin sounds very good to me, but the legato, although one of the best, doesn't sound as agile to me in the demos.


----------



## G.R. Baumann

Some solid writing around here.... bravo!....overall, best VIC thread.... ever!

CSS: Today, it is increasingly difficult to come out with a new strings-lib. that offers something in a compelling manner, unique, and on top plays well with the others, CSS does!


----------



## G.R. Baumann

jieff said:


> LASS = Goldsmith's The Haunting, Howard's Signs, Williams' Star Wars IV-V-VI, Young's The Uninvited
> 
> CSS = Williams' Angela's Ashes / The Terminal / War of the Worlds, Young's Untraceable



Yeah, very good!


----------



## Batrawi

zeng said:


> So if we have LASS, should we still buy CSS or not?



Zeng..I think if you're purely looking for legato performance, then look no further if you have LASS already.

The only things -I presume- that you will get out of CSS better than LASS are:

-Ease of use
-More unique dark/Hollywood-ish tone (Unless you can EQ LASS to sound similar..which is possible)
-more articulations
-smaller section (LASS divisi/small sections cannot be used/exposed individually cause they really sound out of tune IMO)


----------



## muk

Another first work with Cinematic Studio Strings, which uses the legato rebow quite a lot:

https://app.box.com/s/mrqig9nelfv8hlh0q2d2q180arufjmmz

For comments about the track/mockup/mix:
http://vi-control.net/community/threads/la-sera-sper-il-lag-cinematic-studio-strings.54504/

CSS is very fast and easy to work with, and the sections blend very naturally out of the box. I am very happy with the purchase and definitely will use these strings regularly. One slight niggle is with the dynamic range that is rather small. Is there a way to increase the dynamic range without negatively affecting sound quality?


----------



## Pianistikboy

Hi, if this can help someone, I've made a little CSS test showing the dynamics pp to ff in different registers in legato mode. No EQ, no effects, this is out of the box .


----------



## Allegro

jieff said:


> Is that LASS? I find the present tone perfect for this kind of lighthearted and agile melodies..  Tastes can vary a lot, though


Not LASS unfortunately or that would be awesome. This is Sable.


----------



## ricoderks

For anyone wondering about the brightness compared to Hollywood Strings for example I did a rough eq match on the css violins. What you hear is Hollywood Strings Violins 1 - CSS Violins 1 EQ - CSS Violins 1 Original.



Eq curve I used is in the attachment.
So In my opinion you can get pretty close indeed to HS  But I already own that library so I use the eq match on 50% to get the strings a little bit brighter


----------



## zacnelson

I think I prefer the one at the end with no EQ plugin to be honest.


----------



## passsacaglia

ricoderks said:


> For anyone wondering about the brightness compared to Hollywood Strings for example I did a rough eq match on the css violins. What you hear is Hollywood Strings Violins 1 - CSS Violins 1 EQ - CSS Violins 1 Original.
> 
> 
> 
> Eq curve I used is in the attachment.
> So In my opinion you can get pretty close indeed to HS  But I already own that library so I use the eq match on 50% to get the strings a little bit brighter



Nice!! Btw is the CSS legato "speed" kind of similar to HS or even faster in the respone?  
Like, you play and what you hear is what you get?


----------



## Naoki Ohmori

It sometimes sounds more natural to attenuate the frequencies between 200-500Hz instead of boosting the high end too much. Think like "Yin Yang."


----------



## ricoderks

zacnelson said:


> I think I prefer the one at the end with no EQ plugin to be honest.





zacnelson said:


> I think I prefer the one at the end with no EQ plugin to be honest.



I'm liking the 50% match above the original and 100% matched eq


----------



## ricoderks

passsacaglia said:


> Nice!! Btw is the CSS legato "speed" kind of similar to HS or even faster in the respone?
> Like, you play and what you hear is what you get?



Not really! If you choose to use the advanced legato you have a bunch of speeds to choose from when you program your legatos. I find it difficult to play "live" with them but with a little bit of midi editing you'll get the results you expect.

Here was the Cinematic Studio Strings video about legatos (again  )


----------



## passsacaglia

ricoderks said:


> Not really! If you choose to use the advanced legato you have a bunch of speeds to choose from when you program your legatos. I find it difficult to play "live" with them but with a little bit of midi editing you'll get the results you expect.
> 
> Here was the Cinematic Studio Strings video about legatos (again  )



Oh yeah, ofc! Alright, but fairly good for a string library? 
I only have ensemble strings from OE1 arcos, legatos but really "slow" imo so I don't use them. So, yeah I need a string library, feels like CSS is gonna be my 1st, atm I think it's a good idea. First wanted CS2 or LASS Lite. ...
leaning more and more towards to CSS for the interface, sound, good playability and all the nice articulations.

How do you like the different mics?


----------



## mac

Is there any kind of divisi type logic in CSS? If I hit a 6 note chord, would I get twice as many 'strings' than I would with 3 note chord?


----------



## NoamL

Batrawi said:


> You are probably in better position to validate my above conclusion since you've actually played with both libraries.



I haven't, as I said in my post I'm saving up to buy CSS, this is just my impression from hearing the user demos here and on Soundcloud.

BTW have you guys heard this yet? Woah. If these Strings get any more Soaring there's gonna be a trademark dispute...



As for the fast legato, CSS seems to be able to handle itself ok (see the vln turn in the ET example by @ricoderks ). This is always a problem for me in Mural (Vol 1) trying to avoid an accordion effect.

Sure for _extended_ fast passages, agile 16th runs on the bow, etc. I would still pick LASS.



G.R. Baumann said:


> CSS: Today, it is increasingly difficult to come out with a new strings-lib. that offers something in a compelling manner, unique, and on top plays well with the others, CSS does!



Perhaps lessons learned from seeing what other developers released and what the pros/cons were of each lib.... Mural has a great hall sound, LASS has agile transitions, CSS has a bit of both.... no library can have everything.

The main attraction of this library for me is the tone and expressiveness. A lot of motion and evolution even at one dynamic level... In LASS, long string pads tend to sound disappointingly static. I have a mockup of Junkie XL's theme for Furiosa from _*Mad Max*_ floating around the forum somewhere where you can really hear this. Can't wait to redo it in CSS.

Here are some drawbacks of the lib, as far as I can tell from the demos and MIDI data kindly provided for _The Robber_ and other pieces:

- dynamic range is really quite narrow. I mean if LASS is 0% to 100%, and Mural is 0% to 90%, CSS might be* 40% to 85%*. That's on the shorts. The longs have even less dynamic range, as demonstrated above.

- some buildup in lows and low mids compared to other libs. Sounds OK on its own but needs some EQing to combine with the rest of the orchestra, I reckon. That being said, I think the tone actually starts out closer to true neutral (which for me is the unglamorous but real sound of LASS), than HWS does. You can hear in the comparison above that the HWS mix has very much de-emphasized the "wooden-body" and "bow-rosin" sounds you get from a vln section.

- basses seem to be the weak link. Not as stentorian, growly and deep-stage as I like (Berlin nailed my ideal bass sound).

- lack of extended articulations compared to the "flagship" string libraries.


----------



## NoamL

Here's an example _in molto molto extremis_ 



1) LASS - challenging to EQ and reverb (for me, anyway). But peerless in its speed. Very easy to replicate the "blur" from the original, by humanizing the MIDI separately for each divisi section.

2) Mural Vol 1 - can't keep up with the excerpt at all. IIRC the subsequent volumes of Mural have other legato options so this may not be a fair comparison.

3) EWQLSO Gold - precise and energetic, but let down by its "keyboardy" quality.

*MIDI file here* in case anyone else wants to give it a spin.

Oh, and here's my transcription/arrangement of Junkie XL's Mad Max theme in case anyone wants to try that. 

Awesome thread


----------



## Gabriel Oliveira

NoamL said:


> no library can have everything.



yet


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

NoamL said:


> Here's an example _in molto molto extremis_
> 
> 
> 
> 1) LASS - challenging to EQ and reverb (for me, anyway). But peerless in its speed. Very easy to replicate the "blur" from the original, by humanizing the MIDI separately for each divisi section.
> 
> 2) Mural Vol 1 - can't keep up with the excerpt at all. IIRC the subsequent volumes of Mural have other legato options so this may not be a fair comparison.
> 
> 3) EWQLSO Gold - precise and energetic, but let down by its "keyboardy" quality.
> 
> *MIDI file here* in case anyone else wants to give it a spin.
> 
> Oh, and here's my transcription/arrangement of Junkie XL's Mad Max theme in case anyone wants to try that.
> 
> Awesome thread




Actually in Couch / TV Mode here, so while the commercial break so I spent only a few minutes.


----------



## Less Miles

NoamL said:


> Perhaps lessons learned from seeing what other developers released and what the pros/cons were of each lib.... Mural has a great hall sound, LASS has agile transitions, CSS has a bit of both.... no library can have everything.



I'm fairly new to orchestral based sampling, within the last year or so as I transition from engineering and producing in to doing more film score work. So forgive me if this is a stupid question. But what can't a library have everything?

We have amazingly powerful computers that can handle almost everything we throw at them. There are incredibly gifted programmers who seem to be able to model everything under the sun. Is it simply cost prohibitive to create a sample library that does everything well? Most everyone creates libraries for Kontakt it seems. Could this be part of the problem? Does the scripting in Kontakt limit what programmers can accomplish? 

Sorry if this is stupid, I'm not very familiar with what happens under the hood in Kontakt. All this being said, I'm buying CSS today. I've been relentlessly looking for a string library that resonates with me. I have Spitfire string stuff, and its good, but I have had issues with it that are pretty well talked about here (some of their other non string libraries have changed everything I thought I knew about sampling). The sound of CSS kind of choked me up when I heard the first demo on their web page. I felt like I finally was able to find a loved one that I had been looking for most of my life. That sound has been so elusive to me, and I kinda felt like giving up on finding it. The dark, rich sound that reminds me of older classic string sections.

Anyway I digress. But really, why CAN'T we have a string library that does everything?


----------



## Rob Elliott

The simple answer to your last question, as a multi-media composer, there is not ONE client or ONE type of project. Heck - even one gig has variety in it's strings needs. Buy as many options to fill these needs as you can afford.


----------



## Less Miles

Rob Elliott said:


> The simple answer to your last question, as a multi-media composer, there is not ONE client or ONE type of project. Heck - even one gig has variety in it's strings needs. Buy as many options to fill these needs as you can afford.



Yeah! I get that. People want different sounds. I guess I'm talking more about articulations and how they behave. Why can't someone, after they've recorded all their samples, sit down and write scripting that does everything? Why do you as a composer have to buy multiple libraries from multiple companies? I get that if someone wants smaller/larger sounds, dry, baked in, dark, shimmery etc, that one library can only do so much sonically. But as far as the way all the articulations perform, why can't we have it all? If this company does this articulation well, and that company that articulation, it's clear that it can be done. Why doesn't one company do them ALL well?


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Less Miles said:


> Yeah! I get that. People want different sounds. I guess I'm talking more about articulations and how they behave. Why can't someone, after they've recorded all their samples, sit down and write scripting that does everything? Why do you as a composer have to buy multiple libraries from multiple companies? I get that if someone wants smaller/larger sounds, dry, baked in, dark, shimmery etc, that one library can only do so much sonically. But as far as the way all the articulations perform, why can't we have it all? If this company does this articulation well, and that company that articulation, it's clear that it can be done. Why doesn't one company do them ALL well?



Dude, I ask that myself every morning why the heck the neighbours dog not always does shit at the same spot because I would place him a mobile toilet there. Having said that, so why is that? Well, so many things, there are different philosophies in approach of producing sampling libraries, not everybody out there is at the same level and shares the same opinion regarding string libraries and how they have to sound so the results differ from company to company, also different budgets, different targeting groups and so etc etc..,long story short: Nobody needs to buy everything from everybody, that is at least one thing I want to clear out for you.


----------



## jaminjamesp

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Dude, I ask that myself every morning why the heck the neighbours dog not always does shit at the same spot because I would place him a mobile toilet there. Having said that, so why is that? Well, so many things, there are different philosophies in approach of producing sampling libraries, not everybody out there is at the same level and shares the same opinion regarding string libraries and how they have to sound so the results differ from company to company, also different budgets, different targeting groups and so etc etc.., you know the neverending story? So long story short: Nobody needs to buy everything from everybody, that is at least one thing I want to clear out for you.


I guess that makes sense. Coming from more of an engineering background, one coveted compressor may behave differently than another coveted compressor, and you reach for different tools for different things. 

So you would say that a legato that sounds good to one set of trained ears, doesn't sound good to another? Or that it sounds good, but maybe isn't the exact expression you were looking for? 

This is helpful. Because I haven't been thinking of it in this way. I've spent a small fortune on gear. Neve pres sound amazing. And so do API. Both are well respected and coveted. But both do different things. I need to start thinking of string libraries in this way.

Thinking of it this way actually makes me like my Spitfire string more. I wrestle with them to do everything. I'm seeing now I should appreciate them for what they do well.


----------



## prodigalson

Even if it were possible to script and program something that could behave with the same nuance and subtlety as a human being the amount of time it would take to record every single possible articulation under the sun would be preposterous. The upfront investment in musician time, recording time and R&D for the implementation would be astronomical.


----------



## Erik

Herewith a small piece of mine, _Sarabande_, that I wrote some 20 years ago for string ensemble. Finally emulated with more expression than I ever could do with other libs. Thank you guys at Cinematic Strings.



Comments are welcome.


----------



## Batrawi

prodigalson said:


> Even if it were possible to script and program something that could behave with the same nuance and subtlety as a human being the amount of time it would take to record every single possible articulation under the sun would be preposterous. The upfront investment in musician time, recording time and R&D for the implementation would be astronomical.


Sample Modeling achieved this result without all these efforts you've mentioned!

Their sampling approach (check it on their website) is the smartest and the most close to the real thing! Check their newly released viola and cello and how real they sound while at the same being insanely responsive to any playing style that would satisfy almost anyone.

Unfortunately, their approach seems only working on solo instruments and not ensembles. I've emailed them today to try to find out if they have any plans to make ensemble instruments, but the response I got is that their main focus is on solo instruments (at least for now)


----------



## Allegro

NoamL said:


> Here's an example _in molto molto extremis_
> 
> In case anyone else wants to give it a spin.




Spin:
Changed the tempo to better suit the legato transitions. Also, some phasing going on here but nothing that can't be fixed.


----------



## Cat

I have got the CSS library and I am disappointed with its incredible playing delay (latency). It is much worse even than Hollywood Strings which I thought was pretty bad.

I realize that because the way strings players transition from one note to another, the legato transitions have to have a built in delay (that would capture the transition). I used to adjust with track's negative delay for the legato notes.

But with CSS, everything is delayed, even the spiccatos and stacatos!! I think they are all delayed by 80 - 100 ms. Sure I can setup the track's negative delay to 80ms and have everything play in sync. But it is impossible to record a spiccato line live because of this delay. All my other libraries (Albion, Mural, Lass, HS, etc) play fine. I would have to record a line using maybe LASS shorts and then copy/paste to a CSS track. I find this ridiculous.

Has anyone noticed this?

EDIT: Ooops, I read the manual, it says the shorts have a built-in delay of 60 ms. That explains it. I feel it is a bit too much and I wish there was an option for the user to remove it. The Marcatos don't seem to have additional delay though...


----------



## Fer

Erik said:


> Herewith a small piece of mine, _Sarabande_, that I wrote some 20 years ago for string ensemble. Finally emulated with more expression than I ever could do with other libs. Thank you guys at Cinematic Strings.
> 
> 
> 
> Comments are welcome.



Awesome compostion Erik. Bookmarked : )


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

Cat said:


> EDIT: Ooops, I read the manual, it says the shorts have a built-in delay of 60 ms. That explains it. I feel it is a bit too much and I wish there was an option for the user to remove it.



That's a highly odd choice. I don't really understand it, why would they want to delay shorts by default?


----------



## Cat

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> That's a highly odd choice. I don't really understand it, why would they want to delay shorts by default?



The idea is to capture the bow attack. I understand that. Other libraries do that too. But - it's just too much delay here!! About half of that would be a good balance between realism and playability IMHO.


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

Cat said:


> The idea is to capture the bow attack. I understand that. Other libraries do that too. But - it's just too much delay here!! About half of that would be a good balance between realism and playability IMHO.



I'd prefer it if there was an option to turn the delay off. I'm used to offset notes along the grid manually in the context of the desired performance anyway, and it's easier for me to do that in a controlled manner if the patches behave "on point" and predictably by default.


----------



## NoamL

There should be such a thing as "dual MIDI mode"

Let's say you have a sample. You define an "attack point" somewhere in the middle of the sample wav (each wav in the entire library has to have its attack point individually defined in some kind of database).


You also define a keyswitch for "record mode" and "playback mode."

When record mode is on, you play in notes and the wavs are triggered from the attack point.

When playback mode is on, your DAW looks at the notes that have been recorded and triggers them from the start of the wav file such that the attack point lines up with the start of the midi note (this would require some kind of lookahead capability). Effectively a *pre-roll* for each sample.





Is this even possible with the current specs of MIDI and Kontakt?


----------



## Vik

NoamL said:


> There should be such a thing as "dual MIDI mode"
> 
> Let's say you have a sample. You define an "attack point" somewhere in the middle of the sample wav (each wav in the entire library has to have its attack point individually defined in some kind of database).
> 
> 
> You also define a keyswitch for "record mode" and "playback mode."
> 
> When record mode is on, you play in notes and the wavs are triggered from the attack point.
> 
> When playback mode is on, your DAW looks at the notes that have been recorded and triggers them from the start of the wav file such that the attack point lines up with the start of the midi note (this would require some kind of lookahead capability). Effectively a *pre-roll* for each sample.


I was just going to suggest the same thing. It's IMO a good idea, and hopefully something we will see in all relevant libraries in the not-too-distant future.


----------



## Saxer

Orangetree Angelic Harp offers exactly that: a mode for playing with truncated sample starts in time and a playback mode with a fixed delay length to capture the finger nail noize at note start.

This would also be useful not only for playing but for stacking CSS with other libraries without editing everything twice!


----------



## JohnBMears

I plan on getting this library next weekend- but just to prepare myself to be able to work with it-- since it is an 'all in one patch' concerning articulations, is the common recommended practice to set the channel to a -60 track delay, then touch up all forms of legato whether it is slow, medium, or fast? It almost seems like the variance of delays per articulation makes this library most geared towards separate tracks per articulations....


----------



## zacnelson

Good question JohnBMears. To be honest, if it ended up requiring separate tracks per articulation, I would be totally uninterested. I know everyone's got their own workflow, but I HATE having separate tracks.


----------



## D-Mott

IMO - The more delay, the better.

It means that less of the sample is cut from the beginning which if it is removed it can ruin the connected feeling between the notes.

A good example of this would be the Imperfect Samples Braunschweig human fingers patch. Yeah it kinda sucks to play (though not unplayable), but because of this delay that it has and the fact that the sample has not been cut to an inch of it's life feels refreshing and sounds better when played back. It sounds human as if I had just recorded it my self live. Open some of the patches that have been cut..... well yeah they play better but do not sound as good played back.

These aren't real instruments here. We are playing string instruments on a bloody keyboard for christ sake lol. Who does that? I do not know if I'm the minority here because IMO I think that smooth dynamic crossfading/Tone/realistic legato transitions/beautifully recorded vibrato are more important than a bit of delay. 

Though, I do not have deadlines so I am speaking from a position where I have lot's of time so delay doesn't bother me. I just want to hear the expressiveness that I am hearing in my head played back and I feel like it's the delay that is a contributing factor to this.


----------



## prodigalson

Batrawi said:


> Sample Modeling achieved this result without all these efforts you've mentioned!
> 
> Their sampling approach (check it on their website) is the smartest and the most close to the real thing! Check their newly released viola and cello and how real they sound while at the same being insanely responsive to any playing style that would satisfy almost anyone.
> 
> Unfortunately, their approach seems only working on solo instruments and not ensembles. I've emailed them today to try to find out if they have any plans to make ensemble instruments, but the response I got is that their main focus is on solo instruments (at least for now)



Exactly, they've done it with solo instruments not sections and the initial question was in the context of ambient string section libraries so my answer was limited to that and I stand by it. 

However, the initial question asked was why can't a library do "everything well" and even sample modeling doesn't do everything well. It has it's own share of compromises. If you want a great sounding ambient library (section or not), in 2016, you have to record ambient samples. If you want every single playing style, articulation and attack possible (if there was a team that could even catalogue that) then that would be years recording, prohibitively expensive, you'd need terabytes upon terabytes of storage space and good luck scripting it so that it implements every playing style perfectly. 

The next step as I see it is the possibility of a library like sample modeling but somehow getting those dry samples to sound AS good as a good ambient library but we're not there yet.


----------



## uselessmind

Pianistikboy said:


> Hi, if this can help someone, I've made a little CSS test showing the dynamics pp to ff in different registers in legato mode. No EQ, no effects, this is out of the box .




Thats a little bit dissapointing. How many dynamic layers do longs, shorts and legato transitions in CSS have?


----------



## Jorgakis

Does anyone know if it is possible to do something like "measured trills" with the legato patches? Like semi-fast/or even slow legato repetitions of two notes...currently looking for an upgrade for HW Strings.


----------



## Christof

NoamL said:


> - lack of extended articulations compared to the "flagship" string libraries.


In my opinion they added as much articulations as a "modern film composer" would need:
-Sustains, legato, portamento
-4 different short articulations
-Tremolo
-Measured tremolo
-Harmonics (even chromatics, not only natural!!)
-Trills
-Marcato (run mode as well)
-Pizzicato, bartok pizzicato
-All articulations Con sordino

If you write contemporary music you might need sul ponticello as well.
The only thing I would like so see would be pre recorded runs, but there are other products especially for that.

A string library is only as good as the person behind playing it.
I have heard incredible mockups with libraries that are far worse than CSS, and I have heard terrible mockups with libraries that are far more expensive.

These libraries are like real instruments, so we have to learn how to play them.
Recently I switched to another cello, it took me some days (even weeks) to learn how to play it, because it reacts totally different to the cello I am used to play.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Exactly, thank you. And I add the following: People often complain about that they need more articulations and often I think they have no imagination what to do with patches because they get stuck into: Hey the dev sais that this is a marcato and so I only can use a marcato articulation. Try experimenting with patches and try things what the dev doesn´t talk about (or even doesn´t think about..). Try layering etc etc. There are so many ways to exceed with simple tricks the amount of articulations in a library.


----------



## zacnelson

Excellent advice Alexander and Christof


----------



## passsacaglia

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Exactly, thank you. And I add the following: People often complain about that they need more articulations and often I think they have no imagination what to do with patches because they get stuck into: Hey the dev sais that this is a marcato and so I only can use a marcato articulation. Try experimenting with patches and try things what the dev doesn´t talk about (or even doesn´t think about..). Try layering etc etc. There are so many ways to exceed with simple tricks the amount of articulations in a library.


Very true. I'm still a student with at the moment, not the best economy, still managed to do some Top Notch mockups and projects for 1 series, 1 movie, 2 commercials and a new project Only with......wait for it... ProjectSAM's Orchestral Essentials. It's all about experimenting, coming from an EDM and "house" background, I know that to get all those cool special sounds you Want to have in your track...you need to learn the synths properely and know your DAW and how to use everything and what every button means, there ar Far more stuff in Logic's ES2 or Massive than some string libraries out there. I think people would be even better if they spend More time with their DAW's and libraries, just like a real violin, practice. I think I remember Axwell said once "How to become a good musician? Read the manual/learn your DAW". Think it was early in the Logic 7-9 era.

Just made my own "harmonics" on Orchestral Essentials by taking the Tremolos from the string patch, low modulation, a little EQ and adding the "octaves" button in OE1 for 2x octaves up, put Logic's Exciter and some cool stuff and BAM, even cooler Harmonics than some string patches I've heard. So yeah, Dito to that mr Schiborr.

A week ago I didn't know wether to buy CSS for my small amount of saved student money I earned, but since I've sneaked up to my old Gymnasium's choir corridors on the top floor on the lunch breaks just to play on those Yamaha C's I know, for me, it'd be a nice buy (CSS+CSP 50% and edu discount). 
Just need the time to learn it.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Just an example. Lets take not an articulation but a dynamic device which is fairly often used in classic movie scores and that is fortepiano for brass, just for instance. So how do you "mimic" a fortepiano dynamic to let sound the French Horns "loud but soft" and musical? Well, I load a regular marcato patch for the "regular" lines, and I load a second one on a separate midi channel for fp where I increase the volume in the mixer but ride the modwheel in much lower dynamics to prevent the "buzz" in the horns so to keep it forte but musically still somehow fairly loud. It is an approximation and not perfect but somehow works for me. And that is the point with all that kind of things: You have to start experimenting.


----------



## dhlkid

So, it is worth to buy even though we have other strings library?

I sold my VSL orchestral strings and looking for replacement.

The size of VSL chamber strings & Spitfire Sable quite similar. Mural is too big, i need something in between.


----------



## ysnyvz

Had some fun with ensemble marcato patch. It's just random keyboard playing but I really like this library


----------



## chrysshawk

NoamL said:


> There should be such a thing as "dual MIDI mode"


x1000. One mode for tracking and one for mixing. This is something ALL libraries should have implemented, but I don't think I've seen one with it. Especially shorts can be a nightmare to deal with when trying to play them in to capture the human feel.

Curious if anyone else struggles with this in CSS?


----------



## HardyP

NoamL said:


> There should be such a thing as "dual MIDI mode"


Check out this concept by - obviously, who else would openly think and provide freebies to explain it - Greg from OTS: http://vi-control.net/community/posts/3834221/


----------



## Ashermusic

[QUOTE="Christof, post: 3973328, member: 5277"

A string library is only as good as the person behind playing it.
I have heard incredible mockups with libraries that are far worse than CSS, and I have heard terrible mockups with libraries that are far more expensive.

These libraries are like real instruments, so we have to learn how to play them.
[/QUOTE]

So true, Christof, so true. Some guys like Roberto S., Colin O'Malley, and you I am beginning to believe, make everything they use sound better.

Alexander, you are no slouch either.


----------



## Kejero

ysnyvz said:


> Had some fun with ensemble marcato patch. It's just random keyboard playing but I really like this library




Ok, please don't take this personally, and I don't mean to sound like a CSS hater at all, but am I going crazy, or does this sound horrible? I hear machine guns and synthy strings. What am I missing here? Because ever since this whole CSS hype, I'm REALLY starting to get seriously worried about my ears.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Kejero said:


> Ok, please don't take this personally, and I don't mean to sound like a CSS hater at all, but am I going crazy, or does this sound horrible? I hear machine guns and synthy strings. What am I missing here? Because ever since this whole CSS hype, I'm REALLY starting to get seriously worried about my ears.


I don´t want to make somebody uncomfortable as I thought the same thing but thought to shut my mouth, but you are completely right. The whole thing here is meant in a good way unfortunately executed not that well. Sorry to say. And not to repeat Christof again, but it is not the library what makes the sound, it is the composer / Arranger behind. But on the other side to defend the guy who did that short demo: I guess it is just done quick and playing around..so..no problem at all. I guess this can be done much better when spending more time. So all good.


----------



## dreamnight92

For me it sounds just as a full patch opened and played with a keyboard...not too good and not too bad; for example you can make some quick fixed, for example when the volume bumps up in the longest notes, you can turn down the modwheel.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

dreamnight92 said:


> For me it sounds just as a full patch opened and played with a keyboard...not too good and not too bad; for example you can make some quick fixed, for example when the volume bumps up in the longest notes, you can turn down the modwheel.


Well, you think really that this is performed and played? No...


----------



## NoamL

Saxer said:


> Orangetree Angelic Harp offers exactly that: a mode for playing with truncated sample starts in time and a playback mode with a fixed delay length to capture the finger nail noize at note start



Yes, but this isn't really pre-roll.. it's adding a delay, like you said.

The problem with MIDI is that an audio sample is only triggered when the DAW sends a "MIDI note event" message to the sampler (Kontakt). You can't have audio sounding _*before*_ the MIDI note event. The sampler is like a blind person reading a player piano roll with their fingers. They can never know what the next note is until they run across it.

It would be possible to work around this if all the DAWs cooperated to create a consistent and universal *"dual channel"* *protocol*.

Imagine your DAW is playing back. When you try to play along with your piano, you send MIDI to the sampler as normal (call this the *"live channel"*).

The DAW is also looking ahead down the piano roll. When it sees upcoming notes that have already been recorded, it sends them to the sampler (call this the *"alert channel"*) with a standardized heads-up time - let's say 5 seconds?

e.g. now suppose you have a sample of a vocalist, each note is 5 seconds long and the first ~1 second or so of each sample is the vocalist breathing.

when notes are triggered via the live channel, the sampler sends back audio starting from ~1 second into each sample (you hear an "instant attack" and ~4 seconds of a sung note).

when notes are triggered via the alert channel, the sampler sends back *a calculated amount of silence* plus the entire sample (exactly 4 seconds silence, ~1 second preroll sample, ~4 seconds main sample note).


----------



## NoamL

Just looked at the Delphi Shakers example from OrangeTree and it seems that it's possible to do all the necessary code _on the Kontakt side. _

That would be massively awesome because then you don't have to have all the DAWs cooperate and come up with a new spec.

TBH I don't understand how he's doing it. But it's really, really cool


----------



## Kejero

NoamL said:


> e.g. now suppose you have a sample of a vocalist, each note is 5 seconds long and the first ~1 second or so of each sample is the vocalist breathing.



Technically, you don't need all notes to have the same amount of pre-roll. If there's meta-data for each sample, it should be fairly simple for Kontakt to do the necessary calculations (taking current bpm into account) to place each attack of the sample at the actual beginning of the note-on message during playback. Of course, when I say "simple", I should also clarify that I know literally zero about scripting in Kontakt. But I've written my own adaptive music engine in Actionscript years ago, and the concepts seem pretty similar. I figure if something as shitty as Actionscript can handle it, I'm pretty sure Kontakt can deal with it


----------



## muziksculp

ysnyvz said:


> Had some fun with ensemble marcato patch. It's just random keyboard playing but I really like this library




Sounds Great ! That must have been lots of fun playing 

Thanks for sharing,
Muziksculp


----------



## ysnyvz

Guys, it wasn't meant to be realistic. Just random keyboard playing. I left modwheel at top, spiccato overlay on and legato off. Tried to play long and short notes without touching anything else. I will delete it, no worries 


muziksculp said:


> Sounds Great ! That must have been lots of fun playing
> 
> Thanks for sharing,
> Muziksculp


Thanks. It was fun


----------



## David Chappell

A bit late to the party, but here's my first go with CSS.



Overall, I am very impressed. Love the tone and legato in particular, especially at the lower dynamics.


----------



## NYC Composer

Has anyone mentioned what sort of hit CSS puts on CPU? I have the original CS 2, and it tended to be a little heavy.


----------



## milesito

it seems very light for me compared to sable and compared to hollywood strings...maybe not quite as light as symphobia's strings...i feel CSS is similar to CS2 in cpu taxation which was relatively light over all IMO.


----------



## NYC Composer

Erik said:


> Herewith a small piece of mine, _Sarabande_, that I wrote some 20 years ago for string ensemble. Finally emulated with more expression than I ever could do with other libs. Thank you guys at Cinematic Strings.
> 
> 
> 
> Comments are welcome.



Man, that's nice work.


----------



## Pianistikboy

uselessmind said:


> Thats a little bit dissapointing. How many dynamic layers do longs, shorts and legato transitions in CSS have?


If I understand well your question (sorry, I'm french), apparently, the manuel says : "The Sustains in CSS were sampled in 4 dynamics" and :"three distinct dynamics of legato, as well as portamento slides for all sections.""Tremolos were sampled in four dynamics, from pp up to fff". They don't tell the number of dynamics for the shorts.


brett said:


> How fast can you program CSS compared to other string libraries? I'm concerned with speed here, keeping the time spent massaging CCs manageable!


After few more days of practice, I would says it's faster to achieve that style of string music part with CSS than with HS that I also own? But I'm happy to have both libraries. Especially if I need to do fast lines, HS may sounds better in my opinion, but I need to compare. With HS it's difficult to achieve repeated notes with a natural sound. CSS is the winner between those two ones regarding to that ! A pleasure to work with.


----------



## G.R. Baumann

Allow me to slip in a quick question for Alex, I assume he reads this excellent thread!

Alex, with a nice glas of burgundy on a quiet summer evening , would you please consider the possibility to amend your Terms and Conditions in such way, that a license purchased, can be transferred / sold to another person, let's say 6 month after the purchase has been made originally, and only once, so the license is not for re-sale anymore afterwards.

Thanks for your consideration!
Cheers
Georg


----------



## Erik

NYC Composer said:


> Man, that's nice work.



Thanks NYC Composer and Fer for your compliments!


----------



## brett

Pianistikboy said:


> After few more days of practice, I would says it's faster to achieve that style of string music part with CSS than with HS that I also own? But I'm happy to have both libraries. Especially if I need to do fast lines, HS may sounds better in my opinion, but I need to compare. With HS it's difficult to achieve repeated notes with a natural sound. CSS is the winner between those two ones regarding to that ! A pleasure to work with.



Thanks for that. Speed has become more of a drawcard over the years than the number of articulations. "How can I get 80% of the way there as fast as possible" is the question I asking myself more often than not.


----------



## mac

I've noticed a few people mention some kind of discount. Is that only for existing users?


----------



## passsacaglia

About the Portamento and the rich tone, could be another perfect library to produce stuff like Itzhak Perlman's Schindler's list violin theme? Would love to hear that one with CSS.

I will place my order in 1-2 weeks, then I'm gonna fix a nice cool medley of my favorites! ^^


----------



## Ashermusic

NYC Composer said:


> Man, that's nice work.



Agreed, very nice indeed.


----------



## Ashermusic

Pianistikboy said:


> After few more days of practice, I would says it's faster to achieve that style of string music part with CSS than with HS that I also own? But I'm happy to have both libraries. Especially if I need to do fast lines, HS may sounds better in my opinion, but I need to compare. With HS it's difficult to achieve repeated notes with a natural sound. CSS is the winner between those two ones regarding to that ! A pleasure to work with.



I think that is where I am starting to come down on it as well.


----------



## ysnyvz

Here is a little comparison with spiccato ensembles. Playing in this order:
CSS (Mix)
Albion One (Close and Tree)
Mural (Close and Tree)
Sable (Close and Tree)
Orchestral Essentials 1 (Stage)
Adagietto (Close and Far)


----------



## zacnelson

Thanks for the spiccato comparisons; I thought they were all mostly quite good, actually the CSS was one of the worst to my ears.


----------



## mac

ysnyvz said:


> Here is a little comparison with spiccato ensembles. Playing in this order:
> CSS (Mix)
> Albion One (Close and Tree)
> Mural (Close and Tree)
> Sable (Close and Tree)
> Orchestral Essentials 1 (Stage)
> Adagietto (Close and Far)




Wow, everything sounds so bad compared to Mural, especially Albion! CSS sounds rigid and monotonous too, which is disappointing, because I was looking forward to purchasing it, but now Im not so sure. Surprisingly, OE1 sounds the second best overall to my ears.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Well, I won´t better say anything again to these comparison as I had said everything on the last page.


----------



## zacnelson

I actually quite liked Albion in the examples! I suppose because it came straight after CSS, it seemed so much better with the immediate comparison. I agree Mural was excellent.


----------



## mac

Albion starts off ok, but then sounds really 'rubbery', if that makes sense?!


----------



## zacnelson

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Well, I won´t better say anything again to these comparison as I had said everything on the last page.


Yes actually that's a very good reminder. The William Tell midi was so quantized-sounding it could not have done justice to any library. But this latest file was considerably better from a midi point-of-view, but your point is well taken, we shouldn't jump to many conclusions. Although assuming the same midi data was used for all 6 libraries, that's more useful than the William Tell sample, which did not compare libraries at all. (If anyone is reading this discussion now, the original William Tell soundcloud file posted on page 29 was taken down, so perhaps none of these messages will make sense)


----------



## Darryl Jackson

It's nice to hear the tone of each library, but I'm not sure if I'd take this comparison very seriously either, especially when it comes to making a purchase decision (no offense meant, truly!). For CSS, the passage would likely sound better with a different articulation or alternating between the Spicc, Staccatissimo and Staccato articulations and a bit more attention to varying velocities and timing. I have a feeling the same might apply to the other libraries.

Based on the reactions of a few of the posters above, it sounds like you don't really want to hear the very short/rough sound of Spiccato in this context.

[Note: I know the length and tone of Spiccato vs Staccatissimo, etc. for strings in real life can be very different from how Sample Libaries handle them and how I described them above, but I'm referring to the tone and length that libraries usually attach to each articulation.]


----------



## zacnelson

mac said:


> Albion starts off ok, but then sounds really 'rubbery', if that makes sense?!


I think I know what you mean, it's hard to find words. I own Albion ONE and have had difficulty with the spiccatos, it always seems like the luck of the draw, one composition will suit and another will not. I don't use Loegria much, however I pulled it out again recently and was surprised how useful the string shorts were. I was working on a ostinato which sounded horrible with Albion ONE and worked perfectly on Loegria. It's nice when that happens!


----------



## mac

Darryl Jackson said:


> It's nice to hear the tone of each library, but I'm not sure if I'd take this comparison very seriously either, especially when it comes to making a purchase decision (no offense meant, truly!). For CSS, the passage would likely sound better with a different articulation or alternating between the Spicc, Staccatissimo and Staccato articulations and a bit more attention to varying velocities and timing. I have a feeling the same might apply to the other libraries.
> 
> Based on the reactions of a few of the posters above, it sounds like you don't really want to hear the very short/rough sound of Spiccato in this context.
> 
> [Note: I know the length and tone of Spiccato vs Staccatissimo, etc. for strings in real life can be very different from how Sample Libaries handle them and how I described them above, but I'm referring to the tone and length that libraries usually attach to each articulation.]



You're probably right, but I don't feel any emotion from the sound (compared to Mural, and OE1 in part).


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

zacnelson said:


> Yes actually that's a very good reminder. The William Tell midi was so quantized-sounding it could not have done justice to any library. But this latest file was considerably better from a midi point-of-view, but your point is well taken, we shouldn't jump to many conclusions. Although assuming the same midi data was used for all 6 libraries, that's more useful than the William Tell sample, which did not compare libraries at all. (If anyone is reading this discussion now, the original William Tell soundcloud file posted on page 29 was taken down, so perhaps none of these messages will make sense)



Well, I mean..here is the point: Comparison. But how? Every library has different velocitiy layers and capabilities, so you have to consider that. You can´t just insert the midi and copy paste and here we go. The William Tell example was there yesterday, it wasn´t treated with care, at least for my ears and philosophy. Now we have that HZ style music comparison. None of the libaries featured here were treated carefully enough at least for my taste. There is no feeling at all, no dynamics in the repetitions. Everything sounds so static, I mean..how can I judge something here? I can´t. I know..probably nobody has that much time right now, and still..the only thing that tickles me a little is that people g_et a wrong idea of what a library can sound like, that is really the only thing here. _


----------



## mac

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> the only thing that tickles me a little is that people g_et a wrong idea of what a library can sound like, that is really the only thing here. _



What can I say, I'm very easily influenced


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

There have been quite a few of thoughtless, bad library "demos" here lately - those examples where someone would simply yank some MIDI file in the sequencer and play it back with different libraries. It always inevitably sounded absolutely terrible and overall it's just a disservice to everyone involved.


----------



## dreamnight92

ysnyvz said:


> Here is a little comparison with spiccato ensembles. Playing in this order:
> CSS (Mix)
> Albion One (Close and Tree)
> Mural (Close and Tree)
> Sable (Close and Tree)
> Orchestral Essentials 1 (Stage)
> Adagietto (Close and Far)




All of these sound bad, because wrong articulations, and lack of dynamics


----------



## ricoderks

You can always watch the official demo by Alex here:



I think thats way more fair then the previous demo i've heard...
And it sounds pretty good to me!


----------



## ysnyvz

The point of this comparison was hearing their sound not my programming skills. I always compare libraries with same midi. It's more like a stress test for them. Sometimes I change or mix patches in a track because they all have different character.
Here is my opinion about them if anyone is interested:
CSS: Natural attack adds realism. It's tight and has 5 rrs which is nice for fast repetitions. Switching between spiccato and staccatissimo makes a nice difference.
Albion One: Very tight, upfront and bright. It lacks body of a string orchestra. It might sound machine gun-ish in exposed ostinatos.
Mural: Opposite of Albion One. I sometimes use it for layering to add epicness.
Sable: Obviously it's a small ensemble, so it's tight and close. Useful to add extra attack for layering.
OE1: Patch includes both staccato and spiccato. But it's not very tight and has only 3 rrs.
Adagietto: Very dry and harsh. Sections are not panned. Honestly I don't use it. It's just there for comparison.

As before I will delete this one too. It's just a test.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

ysnyvz said:


> The point of this comparison was hearing their sound not my programming skills. I always compare libraries with same midi. It's more like a stress test for them. Sometimes I change or mix patches in a track because they all have different character.
> Here is my opinion about them if anyone is interested:
> CSS: Natural attack adds realism. It's tight and has 5 rrs which is nice for fast repetitions. Switching between spiccato and staccatissimo makes a nice difference.
> Albion One: Very tight, upfront and bright. It lacks body of a string orchestra. It might sound machine gun-ish in exposed ostinatos.
> Mural: Opposite of Albion One. I sometimes use it for layering to add epicness.
> Sable: Obviously it's a small ensemble, so it's tight and close. Useful to add extra attack for layering.
> OE1: Patch includes both staccato and spiccato. But it's not very tight and has only 3 rrs.
> Adagietto: Very dry and harsh. Sections are not panned. Honestly I don't use it. It's just there for comparison.
> 
> As before I will delete this one too. It's just a test.



Yes, I see what you mean, and that is ok, but still you can´t just implement the midi data and start making a comparison because the comparison is not objective. When you compare you have to establish "equal" conditions and the only way by achieving that is to put some serious programming over those examples. The downside (though I appreciate in general that you do examples) is that users get a wrong impression of what the library can sound like.


----------



## ricoderks

ysnyvz said:


> I always compare libraries with same midi.


I personally don't think that's the right approach for comparison libraries. I do understand your philosophy though. But it has been said many times before here: Every library has its own programming and dynamics. Just copying the midi will work for some libraries, maybe... But in the string comparison video from Blakus for example, he also played every different library separately with its own dynamics  So.... no offense but i think this test wasn't very representative for the libraries.


----------



## ysnyvz

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Yes, I see what you mean, and that is ok, but still you can´t just implement the midi data and start making a comparison because the comparison is not objective. When you compare you have to establish "equal" conditions and the only way by achieving that is to put some serious programming over those examples. The downside (though I appreciate in general that you do examples) is that users get a wrong impression of what the library can sound like.


When I say sound, I mean how they recorded instruments in studio and edited samples. Actually I'm looking more from developer side than you. If I don't like that sound when I hit keys, it doesn't matter how good I programme midi. How they mapped samples and scripted them is a different subject. Hope it's clear now. 



Gabriel Oliveira said:


> please


Done. You can relax now 



ricoderks said:


> I personally don't think that's the right approach for comparison libraries. I do understand your philosophy though. But it has been said many times before here: Every library has its own programming and dynamics. Just copying the midi will work for some libraries, maybe... But in the string comparison video from Blakus for example, he also played every different library separately with its own dynamics  So.... no offense but i think this test wasn't very representative for the libraries.


This was just spiccato. Yes, legato is totally different thing


----------



## jacobthestupendous

ysnyvz said:


> Actually I'm looking more from developer side than you. If I don't like that sound when I hit keys, it doesn't matter how good I programme midi.


I don't want to pile on... but from a software developer standpoint, you wouldn't drop the same code into different programs and expect comparable output; you would communicate to each program in it's own language.

For what it's worth, I appreciate you taking the time to put the comparison together and share it.


----------



## ysnyvz

jacobthestupendous said:


> I don't want to pile on... but from a software developer standpoint, you wouldn't drop the same code into different programs and expect comparable output; you would communicate to each program in it's own language.


Nope, that's not how it works. I compared just sound of spiccato ensembles which is a very basic thing in world of sampling. They have velocity layers and round robins and that's it. You don't even need a complex script to make them work. As I said I look from developer standpoint, they look from musician standpoint. I understand their objection though, so no problem


----------



## uselessmind

Pianistikboy said:


> If I understand well your question (sorry, I'm french), apparently, the manuel says : "The Sustains in CSS were sampled in 4 dynamics" and :"three distinct dynamics of legato, as well as portamento slides for all sections.""Tremolos were sampled in four dynamics, from pp up to fff". They don't tell the number of dynamics for the shorts.





Pianistikboy said:


> If I understand well your question (sorry, I'm french), apparently, the manuel says : "The Sustains in CSS were sampled in 4 dynamics" and :"three distinct dynamics of legato, as well as portamento slides for all sections.""Tremolos were sampled in four dynamics, from pp up to fff". They don't tell the number of dynamics for the shorts
> .


Thanks , thats what i wanted to know. I wonder why they dont give that info for the shorts as well.


----------



## ysnyvz

Gabriel Oliveira said:


> The sound has a LOT to do with the programming.


Just curious. Let's say I hired a virtuoso cellist and recorded a lot of articulations, dynamic layers, round robins etc. Mapping, script and GUI are done well. It's even Kontakt Player compatible. But guess what? I recorded everything with a crappy phone in my bathroom. Can you make it sound good with great programming?


----------



## mac

@ysnyvz personally, I found it helpful to have the side-by-side comparisons, so thank you for taking the time out to make it. Yes, none of them were tweaked to bring out the very best in them, but it still shows the difference in basic sound.


----------



## Kejero

Recording technique, programming, performance -- they're all linked. The way I see it it's completely useless to judge isolated "aspects" of an instrument like that. It's like having the greatest french horn in the world but you don't know how to play french horn. So you blow on it and barely get any sound out of it, and whatever noise you manage to get out of it sounds like crap. Are you gonna complain that the "sound" of the horn is bad? No, of course you won't. Because you're aware that you lack the technique to play it correctly. If someone with the right sklils would play it however, you may just fall in love.
When I was young, my sister played violin for a few years. It sounded horrible. That tends to happen with people who start to learn playing violin. It takes years to get a sound out of it that sounds remotely attractive. Did she have a crap violin? Well, probably, yes. But I bet in the hands of a skillful player, I would not have recognized that same violin.

Well all those libraries are french horns. Or violins. And you're saying that it doesn't matter how you play them. You think you can _somehow_ judge them by "making them make a sound", rather than "play them skillfully". By all means, believe what you will. I can only tell you that I think you severely underestimate the balance of importance between the instrument and the performer.

For all the practical ease that comes with MIDI, it's a horrible, horrible idea to think of it as something you can EVER simply drag and drop. Or copy and paste.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Kejero said:


> Recording technique, programming, performance -- they're all linked. The way I see it it's completely useless to judge isolated "aspects" of an instrument like that. It's like having the greatest french horn in the world but you don't know how to play french horn. So you blow on it and barely get any sound out of it, and whatever noise you manage to get out of it sounds like crap. Are you gonna complain that the "sound" of the horn is bad? No, of course you won't. Because you're aware that you lack the technique to play it correctly. If someone with the right sklils would play it however, you may just fall in love.
> When I was young, my sister played violin for a few years. It sounded horrible. That tends to happen with people who start to learn playing violin. It takes years to get a sound out of it that sounds remotely attractive. Did she have a crap violin? Well, probably, yes. But I bet in the hands of a skillful player, I would not have recognized that same violin.
> 
> Well all those libraries are french horns. Or violins. And you're saying that it doesn't matter how you play them. You think you can _somehow_ judge them by "making them make a sound", rather than "play them skillfully". By all means, believe what you will. I can only tell you that I think you severely underestimate the balance of importance between the instrument and the performer.
> 
> For all the practical ease that comes with MIDI, it's a horrible, horrible idea to think of it as something you can EVER simply drag and drop. Or copy and paste.



Amen.


----------



## ysnyvz

Kejero said:


> Recording technique, programming, performance -- they're all linked. The way I see it it's completely useless to judge isolated "aspects" of an instrument like that. It's like having the greatest french horn in the world but you don't know how to play french horn. So you blow on it and barely get any sound out of it, and whatever noise you manage to get out of it sounds like crap. Are you gonna complain that the "sound" of the horn is bad? No, of course you won't. Because you're aware that you lack the technique to play it correctly. If someone with the right sklils would play it however, you may just fall in love.
> When I was young, my sister played violin for a few years. It sounded horrible. That tends to happen with people who start to learn playing violin. It takes years to get a sound out of it that sounds remotely attractive. Did she have a crap violin? Well, probably, yes. But I bet in the hands of a skillful player, I would not have recognized that same violin.
> 
> Well all those libraries are french horns. Or violins. And you're saying that it doesn't matter how you play them. You think you can _somehow_ judge them by "making them make a sound", rather than "play them skillfully". By all means, believe what you will. I can only tell you that I think you severely underestimate the balance of importance between the instrument and the performer.
> 
> For all the practical ease that comes with MIDI, it's a horrible, horrible idea to think of it as something you can EVER simply drag and drop. Or copy and paste.


We're talking about different things. I could make this comparison as simple as this: playing C3 at velocity 100 on each patch. That would still give me a basic idea about how they sound. Because they were already performed by good players, recorded and mixed by a good sound engineer, edited by a good audio editor, mapped and scripted by a good programmer.
It looks like this: I am trying to taste different versions of same meal cooked by different cooks and compare them. And you say I can't because I don't how to cook this meal.
I agree about musicianship but it doesn't apply here. This was just listening some audio.


----------



## Mundano

Is this the largest thread ever dedicated only to a String Library?


----------



## WindcryMusic

Kejero said:


> Recording technique, programming, performance -- they're all linked. The way I see it it's completely useless to judge isolated "aspects" of an instrument like that. It's like having the greatest french horn in the world but you don't know how to play french horn. So you blow on it and barely get any sound out of it, and whatever noise you manage to get out of it sounds like crap. Are you gonna complain that the "sound" of the horn is bad? No, of course you won't. Because you're aware that you lack the technique to play it correctly. If someone with the right sklils would play it however, you may just fall in love.
> When I was young, my sister played violin for a few years. It sounded horrible. That tends to happen with people who start to learn playing violin. It takes years to get a sound out of it that sounds remotely attractive. Did she have a crap violin? Well, probably, yes. But I bet in the hands of a skillful player, I would not have recognized that same violin.
> 
> Well all those libraries are french horns. Or violins. And you're saying that it doesn't matter how you play them. You think you can _somehow_ judge them by "making them make a sound", rather than "play them skillfully". By all means, believe what you will. I can only tell you that I think you severely underestimate the balance of importance between the instrument and the performer.
> 
> For all the practical ease that comes with MIDI, it's a horrible, horrible idea to think of it as something you can EVER simply drag and drop. Or copy and paste.



Well said, and I concur completely.

In my view, it isn't really useful to judge whether or not a particular sample library is "bad" based upon any particular demo, because of the variables of how well the source material (MIDI data, in this case) is suited for the library and what sort of skills the person creating the demo brings to the table. A falling down at any step of the process (the library, the source material or the arranger) can bring down the quality of the end result. On the other hand, the one thing that it may be possible to judge from a demo, in my opinion, is what the minimum potential of a particular sample library might be.

Case in point: take my Symphony Series String Ensemble sample from earlier in this thread. Let's say that a particular listener perceives my demo as sounding pretty decent, but not great. That doesn't prove that SSSE isn't capable of truly outstanding things in the hands of someone with greater skills than myself, or with a piece of music that is better suited to it. However, if the listener had previously thought that SSSE was complete, valueless garbage, then they can perhaps determine from my demo that SSSE was at least capable of something pretty decent sounding in at least one person's hands, which might give them cause to re-evaluate the library's minimum potential.

TL;DR version: I don't think it is wise to downrate a sample library based upon a bad demo, because of all of the other variables. But I am far more comfortable uprating a sample library based upon a good demo.


----------



## ysnyvz

jieff said:


> We aren't talking about meals here.. Libraries would be raw ingredients in this analogy.


No, they would be final products as "musical instruments". I just want to try these "instruments" before making music with them. Like tasting meals before filling my stomach up with the one I like most 



> A velocity of 100 might give you a forte with one, while another will give a ff. The character WILL be very different than what it should be accounted for.


Exactly. I would learn how they react to velocity 100. Besides I would learn if they are dry/wet, tight/loose, soft/hard etc.


----------



## Lawson.

Mundano said:


> Is this the largest thread ever dedicated only to a String Library?



Nope, the Hollywood Strings thread is. This one is a close second, though!


----------



## Darryl Jackson

Lawson. said:


> Nope, the Hollywood Strings thread is. This one is a close second, though!



Not for long! I don't know about you all, but I have at _least _30 pages worth of music - food analogies left in me.


----------



## Rodney Money

Lawson. said:


> Nope, the Hollywood Strings thread is. This one is a close second, though!


Oh my goodness, thank you so much for the link! That was some of the funniest stuff I have ever read. It was so interesting hearing people's thoughts concerning samples back in 2010. This thread concerning CSS is superior to that thread, because you waste almost close to 10 pages on people talking about nonsense where this thread shows you what the library can actually do. Then, you have comments like this on purchasing sampled libraries before you even heard them, oh my goodness, so funny:


midphase said:


> If you'd include some of the top names in the business as idiots, then that would be accurate.
> 
> My guess is that anyone for whom $1500 is not worth even thinking about would. If my last name was Elfman, or Zimmer, or Howard, I would probably have an open account with East West and just tell them to send me everything that comes down the assembly line the moment it's available.
> 
> So yeah, I bet there's a lot of wealthy guys who will preorder without hearing a single note.


Who in their right mind in 2016 would purchase a sample library without even hearing it? Then, there were people saying, HWS would kick LASS "a$$," but then when people finally heard HWS they were talking about how it sounds similar to LASS but just "fatter," and were not blown away like they thought they would be. Thank you for the link again, it was like reading history.


----------



## NoamL

I think comparing libraries is definitely useful but not with MIDI drag and drop. That's not telling you anything, and I never do that on my comparisons. You have to play the piece each time on the new library.

For a piece that stress-tests string shorts, I would like to hear a bunch of different features tested in a short space of time:

*- repeated notes
- phrases
- 8ths, 16ths and triplets at a reasonable tempo
- jete/ricochet bowing possibilities
- cresc/decresc & overall dynamic range
- balance between sections*

A lot of demos are just showing you the articulation in the same context over and over. Usually one where the dev knows the library shines 

I wrote this tiny piece as an example. Used Albion 1 (legacy).





Do you guys think this would be an appropriate piece to use as a stress-tester? I'm kind of feeling meh about the actual composition... and since it was Albion 1, it may not actually be orchestratable.

But it's an example.

Anyone wanna try their hand at coming up with a short stress-test piece for everyone to try with their libs?


----------



## zacnelson

That's an excellent composition Noam, and I think Albion 1 sounds excellent there. I'm sure someone will chime in and point out all the flaws but for an older library I wasn't hearing any deficiencies.


----------



## jononotbono

I am itching to buy CSS and the Piano. This thread is a great and thanks to everyone for uploading examples with CSS. Sounds awesome. I think I need to start going to some sample addiction meetings (like Alcoholics Anonymous - maybe that too) soon!


----------



## 5Lives

Still torn here given I have LASS. Contemplating Berlin Strings.

How easy is it to perform CSS with the built-in latency?


----------



## Ashermusic

Rodney Money said:


> Othen when people finally heard HWS they were talking about how it sounds similar to LASS but just "fatter,"




I will state this again, while it is a fine library, LASS sounds NOTHING like HS. LASS sounds like HS like Jennifer Aniston looks like Jennifer Garner.

CS2 is actually closer in sound to HS.


----------



## Rodney Money

Ashermusic said:


> I will state this again, while it is a fine library, LASS sounds NOTHING like HS. LASS sounds like HS like Jennifer Aniston looks like Jennifer Garner.
> 
> CS2 is actually closer in sound to HS.


This has nothing to do with LASS or your precious little baby, that post was talking about how people back in 2010 viewed sample libraries, not my personal opinion.


----------



## jaminjamesp

I don't want to start a new thread, because I feel like all the CSS users are already here.

I'm new to string libraries, this is my second. I'm having trouble understanding how to control the vibrato in this library. Nowhere in the instructional videos or the manual is it discussed.

I see the Vibrato X-Fade cc, but for the life of me I can't get it to do anything. It sounds either on or off. And off sounds like a cheap synth.

Also, what does Velocity X-Fade mean? I'm obviously using it to control dynamics. Why is it called X-Fade? From an engineering stand point, I think of cross fades as combining two audio clips together. How's does cross fading relate to dynamic control?

Thanks guys!!


----------



## Saxer

Midi CC2 controls vibrato. Still a bit buggy but this will be probably sorted out in an update.
X-fade is audio crossfade in realtime through different recorded dynamic layers. Mostly by modwheel or any other controller (breathcontroller, pedal, knob, fader) which sends CC1.


----------



## midiman

5Lives said:


> Still torn here given I have LASS. Contemplating Berlin Strings.
> 
> How easy is it to perform CSS with the built-in latency?



CSS is the best String library in a while. I'd say go for it. I had almost all the string libraries, and I have not regret it. CSS is absolutely amazing, and easy to use. I personally do not mind the latency, because it adds realism. Use standard legato mode for playing, then switch to advanced once the notes are in.


----------



## jaminjamesp

Saxer said:


> Midi CC2 controls vibrato. Still a bit buggy but this will be probably sorted out in an update.
> X-fade is audio crossfade in realtime through different recorded dynamic layers. Mostly by modwheel or any other controller (breathcontroller, pedal, knob, fader) which sends CC1.


Thanks for your response!!!

I finally found a video by a user who kind of explained the odd cc2 behavior. Makes more sense now. Also, I'm correct in understanding that there are no recorded legato transitions when cc2 is all the way down? Is this something that may "fixed" in an update? 

How and when do you decide to use volume control vs x/fade? I get that there is a difference in bowing intensity in velocity layers. What's the function of the volume when creating dynamics?


----------



## Lawson.

5Lives said:


> Still torn here given I have LASS. Contemplating Berlin Strings.
> 
> How easy is it to perform CSS with the built-in latency?



You should eventually plan on getting both, really. They have totally different sounds, plus sound great layered together.

It's pretty easy to perform. Longs are fine; shorts are a bit harder but if you try to ignore the sound and focus on the keys (or whatever input) it works. Then you just drag everything back by a 32nd note or so and it's good.

[Note: I have received products from both Alex and OT.]


----------



## jononotbono

Lawson. said:


> You should eventually plan on getting both, really. They have totally different sounds, plus sound great layered together.



This is definitely my plan.


----------



## kurtvanzo

Lawson. said:


> [Note: I have received products from both Alex and OT.]


This is definitely MY plan.


----------



## Ashermusic

Rodney Money said:


> This has nothing to do with LASS or your precious little baby, that post was talking about how people back in 2010 viewed sample libraries, not my personal opinion.




Understood, and I have no problem with whichever libraries people prefer whether it is CSS, CS2, HS, LASS KHCS, Berlin, Spitfire, or the strings from an EMU Proteus. But if, especially back then before LASS had their color profiles, anyone thought the two sounded close, then they had no ears at all because it would have been hard to have found two that sounded less alike.

I am really looking forward to the promised CSS update that fixes the cc 2 issue so that I have a little more control over the vibrato.


----------



## 5Lives

Lawson. said:


> You should eventually plan on getting both, really. They have totally different sounds, plus sound great layered together.



If only money grew on trees  BST is so expensive that it sort of has turned me off of it. Mural has a gorgeous sound and I hope they package it like they're doing with Sable.


----------



## jononotbono

How does someone "receive" products from all these Devs then?


----------



## kurtvanzo

jononotbono said:


> How does someone "receive" products from all these Devs then?


Just a joke. If they want you to do a demo for them they usually send you a free version, but they need to ask you. Kind of like the homley girl at a dance, you don't always get your pick.


----------



## jononotbono

Just a joke? You're not aloud to make jokes on the internet. It's a place for moaning and faceless slagging. Apparently.


----------



## 5Lives

NoamL said:


> There was one earlier in the thread but it uses the Staccato not Spiccato art which is not the right way to approach the piece imo.
> 
> I will post a LASS take on The Robber tomorrow after work; I wanna do it justice though.



Were you able to do the LASS mockup of Christof's piece?


----------



## Polarity

5Lives said:


> Were you able to do the LASS mockup of Christof's piece?


I just tried to do my own test of Cristof's mockup with LASS Lite...
but because I have just the midi file and I was too lazy today to find (from CSS walkthrough) what articulation corresponds to every keyswitch used by Cristof, I finished recording just a version with spiccatos only without changing articulations when it was necessary. 
I pumped LASS spiccatos with the SLAM control and layered also spiccatos from Albion One (for what I thought is Violins I part) and spiccatos unison from Metropolis Ark 1 (for what I thought could be Violas part)
and the result is satisfying enough for my tastes. 
I can say I could live even with what I have already to do powerful ostinatos in future.
But one among Cinematic Studio Strings (most probable), Soaring Strings and NI/AudioBro SSStrings Ensemble for sure will be mine this winter for long articulations parts.
I think I will probably put out of my template CineStrings definitively: working finally on my tracks during this last period made me realize that I'm not happy with it and for shorts LASS Lite wins hands down for life.


----------



## Lawson.

5Lives said:


> If only money grew on trees  BST is so expensive that it sort of has turned me off of it. Mural has a gorgeous sound and I hope they package it like they're doing with Sable.



BST is 100% worth the money. Absolutely fantastic library and really versatile.



jononotbono said:


> How does someone "receive" products from all these Devs then?



Usually it's through reviewing, demoing, or beta testing. I try to have that [Note] because I want to be as open as I can. I only promote libraries on here that I personally like, but I do want to make it clear that some of the libraries I personally like (and/or other products from that developer) have been received free-of-charge.


----------



## 5Lives

Lawson. said:


> BST is 100% worth the money. Absolutely fantastic library and really versatile.



What do you feel it excels at compared to your other libraries?


----------



## Lawson.

5Lives said:


> What do you feel it excels at compared to your other libraries?



Runs, short notes, tone, and overall wealth of articulations. BST has the best sounding runs out of all the string libraries I own (I don't have Sable to compare as I've heard that has fantastic runs as well), and is really really easy to program in that aspect. Just play the notes in and it will automatically make great runs (make sure to still put in flowing CC1 data and accents on downbeats however!). The shorts have a very nice crisp bite to them, and having pre-recorded accents on sustains are very handy. It has a more cleaner, classical sound to it which I really like, but can sound big as well. That's not to say it's sound fits with everything, but I prefer writing more traditional orchestral pieces instead of that big EPIC stuff, so it works nicely with me. I'm a big fan of the smaller section size, and Teldex sound, too (though that's mostly personal preference). Ostinato legato is super super handy, and I do wish more than just the 1st Violins and Celli had it.

Including the expansions, BST has pretty much every single articulation you could possibly need (minus Sul G and bow-change legato on other instruments besides the 1sts, but the stunning sul tasto makes up for it). That being said, that's something like $2000 which I believe you could also get Mural for. I think a lot matters on your personal taste in sound and what you're using it for. Most of the high-end libraries all can get the job done fine.

Last but not least, if the mythical Berlin Brass finally comes out, I'll finally have a full orchestra at Teldex!


----------



## WindcryMusic

By the way, just in case there is anyone like me who hadn't made a habit of using Batch Resave in Kontakt and who was getting frustrated with sloooow (like two minutes) loading times for each of the CSS patches, do yourself a favor and run that Batch Resave on the CSS root folder (from an empty, standalone instance of Kontakt). You can thank me later for the subsequent two SECOND load times for CSS.


----------



## Naoki Ohmori

WindcryMusic said:


> By the way, just in case there is anyone like me who hadn't made a habit of using Batch Resave in Kontakt and who was getting frustrated with sloooow (like two minutes) loading times for each of the CSS patches, do yourself a favor and run that Batch Resave on the CSS root folder (from an empty, standalone instance of Kontakt). You can thank me later for the subsequent two SECOND load times for CSS.



The video of the tip is put on the CS2 official site but yes, it lessens loading times significantly.  It'd be helpful whether you use a HDD or SSD.


----------



## WindcryMusic

Naoki Ohmori said:


> The video of the tip is put on the CS2 official site but yes, it lessens loading times significantly.  It'd be helpful whether you use a HDD or SSD.



I see. I'd never used CS2 and had never looked at that site, and I don't think I saw any mention of doing a batch resave on the CSS site or in the CSS documentation, so I thought I'd mention it. In fact, before now the only sample library I've had that recommended and obviously benefited from this was the OT Percussion Exp B, and hence until now I thought its value was specific to OT. But after learning the difference doing this made for CSS, I think I should consider it more generally in the future.


----------



## Lawson.

WindcryMusic said:


> I see. I'd never used CS2 and had never looked at that site, and I don't think I saw any mention of doing a batch resave on the CSS site or in the CSS documentation, so I thought I'd mention it. In fact, before now the only sample library I've had that recommended and obviously benefited from this was the OT Percussion Exp B, and hence until now I thought its value was specific to OT. But after learning the difference doing this made for CSS, I think I should consider it more generally in the future.



I do it on every new library I get. It speeds up loading times by a ton, and also can help iron out "Samples not found" errors before said sample is needed.


----------



## dhlkid

IMO, CSS can fill the gap between Sable & Mural


----------



## 5Lives

So for those that have CSS now, any drawbacks now that the hype has died down? I have heard the following:

- non vibrato bug
- Non vibrato legato transitions don't sound good
- limited dynamic range
- hard to play live due to legato delay

Given everything, is it worth it or do you prefer another library? I'm about to pull the trigger...


----------



## Hywel

Lawson. said:


> I do it on every new library I get. It speeds up loading times by a ton, and also can help iron out "Samples not found" errors before said sample is needed.



I do find the warning that appears - "using this tool will affect and alter multiple patches at once, you should only use it if you know exactly what you are doing." a little off putting.

I'm never really sure if I should be doing it or not because of this.

Hywel


----------



## Naoki Ohmori

Hywel said:


> I do find the warning that appears - "using this tool will affect and alter multiple patches at once, you should only use it if you know exactly what you are doing." a little off putting.
> 
> I'm never really sure if I should be doing it or not because of this.
> 
> Hywel



I think it pretty safe if you rename the original patches when resaving them. Say, "Lite CSS 1st violin" or "Quick CSS 1st violin."
By doing that, you can keep the original ones intact.  
But I'm not a computer savvy. Correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## Kejero

I always do a batch resave right after installing any new Kontakt library. I've never had any problems. But doing it right after installation seems like a good idea to me: if something did go wrong, you could simply reinstall it right away, and you don't need to worry about losing any custom patches or changes you made.


----------



## Gzu

Hello Everyone

My attempt with CSS.

Used too OT first chairs and HB.

Its just a very small demo, recorded very quickly



But i can tell you from my point of view, that this Library have something special, the emotion that this Strings give is somehow different from other products.
The sound is more real, organic, is difficult to explain, but in my opinion absolutely worth the money.
Yes there are some glitches that Alex have to update, but i´m sure he will.


----------



## muk

Very nice Goncalo, it sounds beautiful.


----------



## Ashermusic

Gzu said:


> Hello Everyone
> 
> My attempt with CSS.
> 
> Used too OT first chairs and HB.
> 
> Its just a very small demo, recorded very fast.
> 
> 
> 
> But i can tell you from my point of view, that this Library have something special, the emotion that this Strings give is somehow different from other products.
> The sound is more real, organic, is difficult to explain, but in my opinion absolutely worth the money.
> Yes there are some glitches that Alex have to update, but i´m sure he will.




Nice, Goncalo, somehow you seem to be getting it to perform with less vibrato than I can. Any tips?


----------



## Gzu

Ashermusic said:


> Nice, Goncalo, somehow you seem to be getting it to perform with less vibrato than I can. Any tips?



Hello Asher, how are you today? 

Hope you´re having a great Sunday...

I use the TEC breath control, and ride a lot the cc2 ( Vibrato CC ).
Phearps ,what is attenuating the Vibrato effect is the Violin I from OT First Chair


----------



## Ashermusic

Gzu said:


> Hello Asher, how are you today?
> 
> Hope you´re having a great Sunday...
> 
> I use the TEC breath control, and ride a lot the cc2 ( Vibrato CC ).
> Phearps ,what is attenuating the Vibrato effect is the Violin I from OT First Chair



I am experiencing erratic cc2 behavior, which is a bug apparently that will be addressed in an update soon. Would it be possible to hear just the CSS in this piece without that OT first chair?


----------



## Gzu

Ashermusic said:


> I am experiencing erratic cc2 behavior, which is a bug apparently that will be addressed in an update soon. Would it be possible to hear just the CSS in this piece without that OT first chair?



Ups...

I didn´t save the "Css test" Session ( Sorry )...but i can record a new Legato line riding the cc2.


----------



## Ashermusic

Gzu said:


> Ups...
> 
> I didn´t save the "Css test" Session ( Sorry )...but i can record a new Legato line riding the cc2.




First rule and only important one about music on computers:
save and backup.


----------



## tack

Ashermusic said:


> First rule and only important one about music on computers:
> save and backup.


Fixed that for you.


----------



## Gzu

Ashermusic said:


> First rule and only important one about music on computers:
> save and backup.



My fault, sorry.

In the meantime i´ve uploaded a new test track, with CSS only.



Hope it helps


----------



## Ashermusic

Gzu said:


> My fault, sorry.
> 
> In the meantime i´ve uploaded a new test track, with CSS only.
> 
> 
> 
> Hope it helps




And there is my problem illustrated....more vibrato than I like.


----------



## Gzu

Ummm....yes i have to admit, HWS have a better vibrato control, at least a few more layers, but nonetheless CSS vibrato sounds very good to me.
Maybe the transitions between vibrato layers could be improved, but i´m sure Alex will fix this in the next update.
As you already told, there is a bug in the non-vib layer when playing legato, making almost useless a non-vibrato legato.


----------



## D-Mott

Ashermusic said:


> And there is my problem illustrated....more vibrato than I like.


Now am I actually curious to hear what kind of vibrato you like, Jay.


----------



## AllanH

For fun, and compatibility, I tried mapping vibrato to CC1. Very similar feel to Hollywood Stings and very playable. I've never used a separate controller for vibrato, so it'll be interesting to experiment with. I started by remapping to one of the midi-controllers on my kurz.


----------



## Ashermusic

D-Mott said:


> Now am I actually curious to hear what kind of vibrato you like, Jay.




Well it varies depending on the nature of the track of course, but generally, this amount :


But in almost all cases, less or more of it, I want totally discrete control of it.


----------



## playz123

I've discovered, that with a few of the articulations, I actually prefer the sound with little or no vibrato. Hoping Alex will be able to fix CC vibrato control fairly soon though. In addition, I am using a different CC, and am trying to figure out if I can get the library to remember my choice 'permanently'. It's saved in the existing project, but reverts to CC 2 in a new project of course.


----------



## D-Mott

Ashermusic said:


> Well it varies depending on the nature of the track of course, but generally, this amount :
> 
> 
> But in almost all cases, less or more of it, I want totally discrete control of it.



I see. I'd say that's quite moderate vibrato, but it's not really detailed in HS IMO. Though in the divisi it sounds more detailed and the close mics


----------



## Ashermusic

D-Mott said:


> I see. I'd say that's quite moderate vibrato, but it's not really detailed in HS IMO. Though in the divisi it sounds more detailed and the close mics



That is my motto, moderation in all things.  

Anyway, I want the control.


----------



## D-Mott

Ashermusic said:


> That is my motto, moderation in all things.
> 
> Anyway, I want the control.



So do I. What I would like to hear is a sustained note with the vibrato CC2 control in action, then I will be sold based on that.


----------



## jaminjamesp

I thought I'd share my first attempt with CSS. It's not in a standard orchestral format, so it might give people a chance to here it in a different context.

This was my first dedicated string library. I have Redux as well. I like this a lot more for this kind of application. I've struggled a little bit with it being jumpy in dynamics, but nothing too bad. The vibrato is a little quirky, but still workable. I ended up just controlling vibrato and dynamic on CC1, that seemed to give me the best results.

The song itself isn't completed and the mix is still a little off, so hopefully you can hear past that. Instead of posting the whole song, I just posted the snippet where the strings come in. Apologize for the abruptness of it.


----------



## Mundano

jaminjamesp said:


> I thought I'd share my first attempt with CSS. It's not in a standard orchestral format, so it might give people a chance to here it in a different context.
> 
> This was my first dedicated string library. I have Redux as well. I like this a lot more for this kind of application. I've struggled a little bit with it being jumpy in dynamics, but nothing too bad. The vibrato is a little quirky, but still workable. I ended up just controlling vibrato and dynamic on CC1, that seemed to give me the best results.
> 
> The song itself isn't completed and the mix is still a little off, so hopefully you can hear past that. Instead of posting the whole song, I just posted the snippet where the strings come in. Apologize for the abruptness of it.



 the mix isn't good, but the colour of the library gets through and fits well, and that is very impressive!


----------



## zacnelson

It's not such a bad mix, I'm not sure there's much to criticize about the mix really, I like all the sounds and it's a really solid track. Looking forward to hearing the finished version.


----------



## jaminjamesp

zacnelson said:


> It's not such a bad mix, I'm not sure there's much to criticize about the mix really, I like all the sounds and it's a really solid track. Looking forward to hearing the finished version.



Appreciate the kind words!

I think it may throw some off because it's not a standard orchestral mix. Obviously a harp would never be that far forward in an orchestral situation. Things like that. It's for a commercial project. The client wants a blend of orchestral-ish with a pop format, vs/crs etc. This acts as the chorus section. There is a little low end mud, but I'm not worrying about it because I'm not mixing this project. I don't know if I'll be able to post the finished product, but if I can, I definitely will.


----------



## Mundano

zacnelson said:


> It's not such a bad mix, I'm not sure there's much to criticize about the mix really


not criticizing, i think it's still developing ... and to say "isn't good" differs to "it's a bad mix". But I think if he tweaks a little more all the instruments will fit well together, CSS is doing already so, and i like the composition as well!


----------



## D-Mott

Gzu said:


> My fault, sorry.
> 
> In the meantime i´ve uploaded a new test track, with CSS only.
> 
> 
> 
> Hope it helps




Do you think you could provide me or us if enough else is interested, the MIDI file for this little passage. I'd like to see how HS sounds with it, obv tweaked of course. If you can be bothered.

Cheers


----------



## Gzu

D-Mott said:


> Do you think you could provide me or us if enough else is interested, the MIDI file for this little passage. I'd like to see how HS sounds with it, obv tweaked of course. If you can be bothered.
> 
> Cheers



Sure! No problem ! 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wvn1side0w5dl1x/CSS test.mid?dl=0

Hope it helps!


----------



## LondonMike

I wrote this little snippet to test CSS out in a more classical vein. I think it is possible to sculpt fairly intricate lines with a little fiddling (excuse the pun) with CC1, velocity and key-switching.
I have CS2 and LASS and I think CSS has qualities that make it a useful addition for certain applications. It's more consistent in tuning and tone than LASS and is more versatile and detailed than CS2.
I wish it was able to do a more exaggerated portamento or glissando but I love the clarity of the trills, the col legno and the overall sound.

I used only first violins, violas and cellos for a three part texture adding a little reverb (B2) after turning off CSS's own.


----------



## D-Mott

Gzu said:


> Sure! No problem !
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/wvn1side0w5dl1x/CSS test.mid?dl=0
> 
> Hope it helps!


Thanks Bruva


----------



## jaminjamesp

Here is something a little different. All close mic with a little main mic mixed in. No reverb. Just viola and a piano. I think it creates a pretty cool sound. It's playing very delicately, the mod wheel is super low and the output cranked. No EQ, but I did put an instance of Waves J37 Tape emulator on the master bus.

This may be my favorite sound from CSS so far.


----------



## D-Mott

jaminjamesp said:


> Here is something a little different. All close mic with a little main mic mixed in. No reverb. Just viola and a piano. I think it creates a pretty cool sound. It's playing very delicately, the mod wheel is super low and the output cranked. No EQ, but I did put an instance of Waves J37 Tape emulator on the master bus.
> 
> This may be my favorite sound from CSS so far.




That is a great viola sound. Gesus. I always feel like the violas get neglected you know.


----------



## passsacaglia

For all the ones who recently bought this, how would you rate the agility and easiness when making a short piece out of 10?  The videos that are up show a great playability, any "problems" or obstacles a beginner may feel, learning curve? To me this would be my 1st real string library. Ofc I have all the time in the world learning it.
What I'm thinking about is that at some videos it shows the ms delay for some dynamics, would this be "hard" to learn or are all string libraries like this?  Imagine myself "writing" to picture and if this gets difficult when there's a slight delay on some notes or if this is just normal. 
(When you want to write melodies or some faster lines)

99% in that I will buy this like tomorrow or next week.


----------



## jaminjamesp

passsacaglia said:


> For all the ones who recently bought this, how would you rate the agility and easiness when making a short piece out of 10?  The videos that are up show a great playability, any "problems" or obstacles a beginner may feel, learning curve? To me this would be my 1st real string library. Ofc I have all the time in the world learning it.
> What I'm thinking about is that at some videos it shows the ms delay for some dynamics, would this be "hard" to learn or are all string libraries like this?  Imagine myself "writing" to picture and if this gets difficult when there's a slight delay on some notes or if this is just normal.
> (When you want to write melodies or some faster lines)
> 
> 99% in that I will buy this like tomorrow or next week.



I'm a something of a newcomer to these kinds of string libraries, though I've been engineering/producing for years now. So that being said, I have a fair amount of experience with analogue synths. This comes in handy because I'm used to adjusting lots of parameters on the fly, and adjusting my timing based off of the attack of different patches I'm playing.

That being said, learning to play a string library well, has been something of a learning curve. To create anything remotely realistic you'll be riding CC1 and CC2 while you're playing (you can always go in and tweak it later).

The timing in CSS isn't exactly easy. The slow legato "delay" is 333ms, the medium is 250ms, and the fast is 100ms. Strings don't sound good on the grid, so you won't need to be exactly on with your timing, but you'll need to be close. But hands down, anticipating those different "delays" has been the hardest thing for me. 

It's get easier with practice, but this is what you'll be learning with CSS.

If you're playing a legato patch, you'll be playing your melody with your right hand, and riding CC1 (for dynamics) with your left. I recommend an expression pedal or breath control for vibrato control. As you're playing you'll need to be aware of the 4 velocity zones you'll be hitting the keys with, depending on the legato speed/portamento you want for each note and expression of the piece. Then add to that, while you're anticipating the speed of legato change you want for your next note, you'll need to also anticipate how early you'll need to strike the key to get your change on time, and at which velocity. All the while riding cc1 and cc2 with your left hand. Also (obviously) remembering your part, and then watching picture as well (in your case).

It's a lot to think about. And it wasn't easy to immediately pick up for me. But no fear, you can obviously always go in and tweak your midi information and nudge notes.

You could always just hit the keys hard for a fast legato change, then go in and quantize it all. Change the velocity to a medium legato speed, nudge all your notes forwards 250ms and then draw in all your CC information. But then that sounds gross and lifeless. So I recommend really getting the hang of playing it live and then just tweaking when you're done.


----------



## zeng

D-Mott said:


> Thanks Bruva


Hey D-Mott, any news for same piece with HS?  I am very excited for hearing the comparison between CSS and HS for this same MIDI piece!


----------



## WorshipMaestro

LondonMike said:


> I wrote this little snippet to test CSS out in a more classical vein. I think it is possible to sculpt fairly intricate lines with a little fiddling (excuse the pun) with CC1, velocity and key-switching.
> I have CS2 and LASS and I think CSS has qualities that make it a useful addition for certain applications. It's more consistent in tuning and tone than LASS and is more versatile and detailed than CS2.
> I wish it was able to do a more exaggerated portamento or glissando but I love the clarity of the trills, the col legno and the overall sound.
> 
> I used only first violins, violas and cellos for a three part texture adding a little reverb (B2) after turning off CSS's own.



What a delightful little piece! Classical in nature, but yet not.


----------



## muziksculp

LondonMike said:


> I wrote this little snippet to test CSS out in a more classical vein. I think it is possible to sculpt fairly intricate lines with a little fiddling (excuse the pun) with CC1, velocity and key-switching.
> I have CS2 and LASS and I think CSS has qualities that make it a useful addition for certain applications. It's more consistent in tuning and tone than LASS and is more versatile and detailed than CS2.
> I wish it was able to do a more exaggerated portamento or glissando but I love the clarity of the trills, the col legno and the overall sound.
> 
> I used only first violins, violas and cellos for a three part texture adding a little reverb (B2) after turning off CSS's own.




Hi LondonMike,

Sounds Awesome ! 

Thanks for sharing,
Muziksculp


----------



## Ashermusic

zeng said:


> Hey D-Mott, any news for same piece with HS?  I am very excited for hearing the comparison between CSS and HS for this same MIDI piece!




That MIDI file is not going to work for HS at all. They handle MIDI ccs and connectivity vastly differently.


----------



## Alex W

Hi everyone,

Thanks for all the great contributions to this thread. 

I just wanted to address the points jaminjamesp raised about the legato system above. Firstly, thanks for posting your detailed feedback, however you kind of jumped in the deep end there.  I'd like to point out that we included specific legato modes for both new and more experienced users; I noticed you’ve started with Advanced, which is not what I’ve recommended for a new user of these kinds of string libraries.

The various legato modes are covered in depth in both the manual and the legato introduction tutorial here: 

Basically, for users who are used to practically no delay, the Classic patches are easy to use and require almost no learning at all. Riding the mod wheel to control dynamics is typical of most modern string libraries, and is crucial to creating a realistic sound. The delay inherent in the Standard and Advanced modes adds a higher level of realism, but of course, like any instrument, requires a bit of extra practice.

Standard mode is selected by default when loading a patch, and as outlined in the manual, introduces new users to the concept of a delayed legato while maintaining a moderate learning curve. Once the delay becomes second nature, moving onto Advanced mode is a more natural step and will allow you to achieve an impressive degree of realism and authenticity.

Thanks again, I hope that helps!


----------



## jaminjamesp

Alex W said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> Thanks for all the great contributions to this thread.
> 
> I just wanted to address the points jaminjamesp raised about the legato system above. Firstly, thanks for posting your detailed feedback, however you kind of jumped in the deep end there.  I'd like to point out that we included specific legato modes for both new and more experienced users; I noticed you’ve started with Advanced, which is not what I’ve recommended for a new user of these kinds of string libraries.
> 
> The various legato modes are covered in depth in both the manual and the legato introduction tutorial here:
> 
> Basically, for users who are used to practically no delay, the Classic patches are easy to use and require almost no learning at all. Riding the mod wheel to control dynamics is typical of most modern string libraries, and is crucial to creating a realistic sound. The delay inherent in the Standard and Advanced modes adds a higher level of realism, but of course, like any instrument, requires a bit of extra practice.
> 
> Standard mode is selected by default when loading a patch, and as outlined in the manual, introduces new users to the concept of a delayed legato while maintaining a moderate learning curve. Once the delay becomes second nature, moving onto Advanced mode is a more natural step and will allow you to achieve an impressive degree of realism and authenticity.
> 
> Thanks again, I hope that helps!




Alex, I hope my post didn't come off as discouraging anyone. I was trying to give a realistic overview of playing CSS, and really any string library, for someone who never has. I think some people buy, play it for a day and think, "this doesn't sound real," then they get discouraged and don't use it. Or go online and post about how bad it sounds. In reality, it's all about how you play it. I guess that's what I was trying to emphasize, the effort it takes to make ANY string library come to life in a realistic way. 

The way I see it, it's an instrument in and of itself, and requires some patient practice to nail down. I should have indicated the advanced legato option I was using. I do feel like it gives a more realistic sound, so I just always use it, and am teaching myself to work with it. 

CSS is simply amazing. The scripting is superb. It sounds stellar. I recommend anyone get it. And for newbies like me, just practice and it'll come pretty quickly.


----------



## Alex W

Thanks! That’s fine, I just wanted to clarify those points a little. I agree - it is like learning a new instrument. Thanks for the positive words - I’m glad you’re liking it. 

Cheers!


----------



## passsacaglia

Both posts were very encouraging guys, thanks a lot!
Looking forward to next week when salary day comes aaand I'll get CSS and the piano.
And like many other libraries and stuff, it's all about the practice. Everything needs practice for one to become good at it. I really like to support companies with good feedback, excellent customer service and nice attitude where everything is not just about selling and cash. To help your "clients" with support and encouraging people to make the best out of the products is always in my mind in my jobs. 
Thanks you Alex and John and the rest! Looking forward to use your products and get astonashing results!

- looked at the demonstration now and the Classic patch (Cinematic strings mode) is there, awesome for quick mockups!


----------



## D-Mott

zeng said:


> Hey D-Mott, any news for same piece with HS?  I am very excited for hearing the comparison between CSS and HS for this same MIDI piece!





Hello

I loaded the MIDI in one night and it totally jumbled everything around. Tuning and notation. I must have loaded it in wrong or something. I will try and whip something up soon.


----------



## scoringdreams

phil_wc said:


> Yes you do have to extract seperate. I use pc so I can select all and extract to same folder in one click. Not sure if Mac can do.



All these information are really helping me now as I see the error message pop up before me...


----------



## Batrawi

LondonMike said:


> I wrote this little snippet to test CSS out in a more classical vein. I think it is possible to sculpt fairly intricate lines with a little fiddling (excuse the pun) with CC1, velocity and key-switching.
> I have CS2 and LASS and I think CSS has qualities that make it a useful addition for certain applications. It's more consistent in tuning and tone than LASS and is more versatile and detailed than CS2.
> I wish it was able to do a more exaggerated portamento or glissando but I love the clarity of the trills, the col legno and the overall sound.
> 
> I used only first violins, violas and cellos for a three part texture adding a little reverb (B2) after turning off CSS's own.




Now that' the smartest demo I've heard so far. Really showcases the potentials of this library and demonstrates how most of the articulations blend well together. Thanks again


----------



## phil_wc

scoringdreams said:


> All these information are really helping me now as I see the error message pop up before me...


Problem with continuata is it can't install but it can download. Just ignore error and let it download till finish, and install manually.


----------



## Batrawi

5Lives said:


> So for those that have CSS now, any drawbacks now that the hype has died down? I have heard the following:
> 
> - non vibrato bug
> - Non vibrato legato transitions don't sound good
> - limited dynamic range
> - hard to play live due to legato delay
> 
> Given everything, is it worth it or do you prefer another library? I'm about to pull the trigger...



I'm on the same boat here. 
Any advice from you guys whether these bugs are tolerable? 
Or probably any promises fron @Alex W whether these bugs are fixable?


----------



## tack

Batrawi said:


> Any advice from you guys whether these bugs are tolerable?


Apart from the legato delay -- which isn't actually a bug but a consequence of the fact that computers are not yet able to read minds in advance of thoughts being formed (and in any case the classic patches are available that offer much snappier legato) -- in the context of my own purposes, my answer is wholeheartedly yes.


----------



## scoringdreams

phil_wc said:


> Problem with continuata is it can't install but it can download. Just ignore error and let it download till finish, and install manually.



Now, I have just finished downloading it.

I had to go the manual download route by using Download Manager...


----------



## 5Lives

Batrawi said:


> I'm on the same boat here.
> Any advice from you guys whether these bugs are tolerable?



I bought it and am pleased. It is very easy to use and sounds great.


----------



## Batrawi

I'm downloading right now. 
Is there a manual somewhere that I can read in the meantime(I couldn't find any on the website)? Or shall i wait until the download is finished?


----------



## AllanH

has anyone heard anything about the solo strings or the rest of the CS orchestra?


----------



## muziksculp

AllanH said:


> has anyone heard anything about the solo strings or the rest of the CS orchestra?



According to their website " We know you will enjoy our first two releases: Cinematic Studio Strings and Cinematic Studio Piano. Cinematic Studio Solo Strings, Brass and Woodwinds are all due for completion in 2016; Cinematic Studio Percussion will be released early in 2017."

Not sure which one will be released next, but I guess we will know in the near future.


----------



## AllanH

thank you - I was just curious, as I'd been reading the web site also. CSS is just fantastic for my type of music.


----------



## NoamL

muziksculp said:


> Cinematic Studio Solo Strings, Brass and Woodwinds are all due for completion in 2016


----------



## passsacaglia

A snapshot of the CSPiano if someone wished for more examples.
*Mind* the high notes that could appear, didn't have time to mix and fix but wanted to slash the hell out of the piano just to try it, did this before I went to the library.
Can absolutely write the tracklist also, but did a Swedish piano medley and borrowed tracks from a couple of DJ's and friends, and some extras 
Enjoy!






Spoiler: Tracklist



00:00-1:00 Axwell Ingrosso - On my way
1:02-1:52 Swedish House Mafia - Save the world
1:55-2:10 Avicii - Fade into darkness
2:30 - 3:03 Zedd - Spectrum
3:04 - 3:27 Alesso Ingrosso - Calling
3:28 - 4:05 Alesso ft. Dirty South - City of Dreams
4:07 - 4:59 Dirty South - Walking Alone
5:00 - 5:41 Axwell Ingress - Something new
5:42 - 6:30 Eric Prydz - Pjanoo
6:32 - 7:03 Red Carpet - https://youtu.be/GotgXpeWWVw?t=3m18s (Alright)
7:04 - 8:19 Yann Tiersen - Comptine d’été 3


----------



## Batrawi

Finally downloaded and tested the library.
I must say that I've never heard something that sounds perfectly "right"!

It has a magical ambience that is dry/flexible enough to tweak, yet wet/beautiful enough that you DON'T wanna tweak (if that makes any sense)!

Highly recommended!


----------



## scoringdreams

I have to ask this since it's my first time dealing with delayed legato patches:

How does it affect your workflow?! It's really difficult to work with and is *not just a simple matter of using the delay compensation function* for me because I have 1st Violins (etc) open on a single instrument track and work around with expression maps on Cubase.

If you have a workflow which works well for you in Cubase, please share it with me. 

Not going to let my CSS investment go to waste over such issues!


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

scoringdreams said:


> I have to ask this since it's my first time dealing with delayed legato patches:
> 
> How does it affect your workflow?! It's really difficult to work with and is *not just a simple matter of using the delay compensation function* for me because I have 1st Violins (etc) open on a single instrument track and work around with expression maps on Cubase.
> 
> If you have a workflow which works well for you in Cubase, please share it with me.
> 
> Not going to let my CSS investment go to waste over such issues!



I use expression maps too. What exactly is your issue with the legato?

I have set the delay of all my CSS tracks to -60ms in order to have the short notes dead on, because I need that when composing and sequencing. The legatos are still behind even with that setting, but I just move those MIDI notes ahead of the beat and that's it. It's not that bad.


----------



## scoringdreams

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I use expression maps too. What exactly is your issue with the legato?
> 
> I have set the delay of all my CSS tracks to -60ms in order to have the short notes dead on, because I need that when composing and sequencing. The legatos are still behind even with that setting, but I just move those MIDI notes ahead of the beat and that's it. It's not that bad.



Hmm...so you guys work with delayed legato by just manually moving the notes?


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

scoringdreams said:


> Hmm...so you guys work with delayed legato by just manually moving the notes?



At least that's how I do it. I don't see another way. But it's not that bad to me because I' used to fiddling around in the MIDI editor anyway and don't always keep every note exactly quantized to the grid and at 100% correct length. There's always stuff that I move around or shorten/extend a bit to make things sound less rigid and manipulate how certain samples ring out etc.


----------



## AllanH

I simply set the track offset to e.g. -100 ms to make legato transitions sound better when mixed with e.g. Hollywood Strings. 

The manual is pretty clear on the delay for each of the legato transitions speeds.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

It is maybe a bit of topic guys but I remind you that today is the last day that buyers of css get csp for half of the normal price. I think thats a nowbrainer..what are your impressions with CSP so far?


----------



## AllanH

I like CSP and I'm using it on one of my new tracks. I think it captures the sound of a Yamaha C7. It responds "as expected" to (at least) my playing style. I don't particularly like the sounds of Yamaha grands (to me they sound metallic and a bit harsh), but CSP seems a bit mellower than other real Yamaha's I've tried. I do think that it's a bit thin in the lower two octaves and I don't hear the "power" I expect in that range. Compared to e.g. the Garritan CFX, which I have, it's a noticeable difference. However, CSP blends better in an orchestral setting and maybe it's less of a solo instrument than the CFX.

I wish the Kontakt effects hadn't been turned off as a tiny be a narrow band compression and EQ in the lower band can bring the bite back. 

For the price, of course, it's a steal.


----------



## Batrawi

[QUO


AllanH said:


> The manual is pretty clear on the delay for each of the legato transitions speeds.



So that's pretty much saying that you can only use one legato type per track otherwise the timing's gonna be messed up for the rest of legatos/articulation! (Or am I stupid  )
I think I'll just have to adjust every transition manually to avoid any hassles


----------



## AllanH

Batrawi said:


> So that's pretty much saying that you can only use one legato type per track otherwise the timing's gonna be messed up for the rest of legatos/articulation! ...



I think so. I do not use key-switches, and keep each articulation on a separate track. So for me, it's not problematic fiddling with the time shift to make it combine well. If you mix articulations in one track, it does not work from what I can tell. 

An interesting approach might be if the time-shift could be automated, but my DAW does not support that (that I can figure).


----------



## Hat_Tricky

About to pull the trigger on CSS + Spitfire CHamber Strings. Right now I have only Albion ONE and 8dio Majestica for strings.

I was leaning towards LASS + Albion Logeria to cover orchestral strings and a smaller chamber sound, but now I am leaning towards a CSS + Spitfire Chamber strings combo.

Thoughts?


----------



## Batrawi

Hat_Tricky said:


> About to pull the trigger on CSS + Spitfire CHamber Strings. Right now I have only Albion ONE and 8dio Majestica for strings.
> 
> I was leaning towards LASS + Albion Logeria to cover orchestral strings and a smaller chamber sound, but now I am leaning towards a CSS + Spitfire Chamber strings combo.
> 
> Thoughts?


I don't think you really need such a combo. I don't own sf chamber, but I own CSS and I can tell you that if you turned the close mics only you would be surprised of the very intimate/delicate sound you can get which is very different from the library's large sound being promoted in most of the demoes. So I say it would be a waste of money if you get both.
Choose one:
-sf has much more articulations I believe, but you will pay more
-CSS has less/basic articulations, yet the price is very generous for what you get IMO


----------



## passsacaglia

Last day for the reduced CSP deal - From one who has it, get it now if you wanna save some beer money 
No but, great deal. With student discount it gets even better. 
But..been seeing more movies and stuff where I hear the sweet lush and sweeping CSS type of sound, such a good feeling.


----------



## NoamL

If you really want to go overboard on strings with THREE libraries, then I think Sable + CSS + Albion is one of the best possible combos. But recognize that it's _*definitely*_ going overboard 

Sable has few competitors in the "detailed small-n-solo" sound and Albion has few peers in the "epic-n-huge with hall" sound.

In between is the sound of a _real_ (ok, "traditional") orchestral string section. There are many great libraries here but if you want to be covered comprehensively on articulations I think the best choices are LASS or CSS or Mural or HWS.

However the choice is different if you are approaching it from a "three libraries for three roles" perspective. That is because LASS is so huge (SIXTY players!) it verges on redundantly covering the huge-hall-sound role (once you properly reverb it). So I would scratch that from the list. Mural and HWS are also fairly large sections compared to the midrange CSS. That's why CSS might be a good choice for you. Its sound feels well positioned to be made "more detailed" or "more epic" by mixing it with Sable and Albion respectively.


----------



## Hat_Tricky

Thanks for your replies so far!

Re: me getting CSS + Spitfire chamber strings (and already owning Albion ONE), i'd be getting the intro pice on Spitfire of course, and the edu discount on CSS. As well as CS Piano deal (only have Piano In Blue so far, would be nice to have another quality piano)

I know I know, you're not "saving" money if you're spending it! haha!


Batrawi, thanks for the info on CSS close mics. I do REALLY love a close, small (3-4 violin1, etc) section sound and Spitfire Chamber strings sounds amazing. Seeing as I already have Albion ONE (but I really dont like writing in section based styles, I much prefer having small sections, divisi options, etc) I see where you are saying it might be redundant for me to get both CSS and Spitfire Chamber Strings.

Choices, choices, choices! That intro price for SCS is so nice though...


----------



## JohnBMears

AllanH said:


> I think so. I do not use key-switches, and keep each articulation on a separate track. So for me, it's not problematic fiddling with the time shift to make it combine well. If you mix articulations in one track, it does not work from what I can tell.
> 
> An interesting approach might be if the time-shift could be automated, but my DAW does not support that (that I can figure).



So Allan, do you load the same CSS patch numerous times (one for each track in the DAW) and deactivate the 'other' articulations? How's that working?


----------



## Lawson.

JohnBMears said:


> So Allan, do you load the same CSS patch numerous times (one for each track in the DAW) and deactivate the 'other' articulations? How's that working?



Yep, I do that as well. It was a bit of a pain to set-up, but it works perfectly fine in my DAW. I am not a huge keyswitch fan (unless it's for changing mallets or something in percussion, then it's ok ).


----------



## Hat_Tricky

Lawson. said:


> Yep, I do that as well. It was a bit of a pain to set-up, but it works perfectly fine in my DAW. I am not a huge keyswitch fan (unless it's for changing mallets or something in percussion, then it's ok ).



I am new to all of this, but I have been experimenting with this multiple track-per-articulation setup as well with Albion ONE and Majestica (my only strings libraries so far)

I find that having 20 tracks of strings is kind of bothersome because i like to see everything in a more traditional score form, not 8-10 tracks of each instrument. Its just tough to see "everything" on screen when strings take up the entire screen haha!

But with my current keyswtiching situation (61 key keyboard that only transposes +/- 1 octave) I ahve had to had my switches sometimes above the range for low instruments, and below the range for others. Maddenning to remember where they are, and to move them around every time!


----------



## tack

Hat_Tricky said:


> I ahve had to had my switches sometimes above the range for low instruments, and below the range for others. Maddenning to remember where they are, and to move them around every time!


Like you, I'm not a big fan of track-per-articulation. Even a track per instrument starts to get unwieldy with a lot of libraries in your template. The solution to this, at least for me, is not to use notes as keyswitches but some other MIDI event. This is my take on the problem.


----------



## scoringdreams

tack said:


> Like you, I'm not a big fan of track-per-articulation. Even a track per instrument starts to get unwieldy with a lot of libraries in your template. The solution to this, at least for me, is not to use notes as keyswitches but some other MIDI event. This is my take on the problem.



Hmmm not using notes as key switches...if I am not mistaken, the CSS video showed using the modwheel for keyswitching instead of notes. Will that work?

I guess for now, our best bet is to separate the legato channel on its own.


----------



## Lawson.

Hat_Tricky said:


> I am new to all of this, but I have been experimenting with this multiple track-per-articulation setup as well with Albion ONE and Majestica (my only strings libraries so far)
> 
> I find that having 20 tracks of strings is kind of bothersome because i like to see everything in a more traditional score form, not 8-10 tracks of each instrument. Its just tough to see "everything" on screen when strings take up the entire screen haha!



I used to need to see the score as well, but it was too slow to fine-tune note lengths and stuff (especially for legatos). I now read MIDI pretty fluently and use the MIDI editor for almost everything. It's really useful especially in track-per-articulation situations as I can select all of my different tracks and have them show up on a single MIDI editor. I always prefer looking at a score, but it's too slow to be able to incorporate in my workflow. It did take a while to get used to, though.


----------



## procreative

I must admit I still cannot decide which method I prefer:

1. 1 Articulation Per Midi Track or
2. Keyswitched articulations via 1 Midi Track

I tried the first option and spent ages setting it up (forced into this by Hollywood Strings and its lack of KS patches). However after using it for a while, while it is definitely easier to remember what track is playing what and also having the option to play several articulations concurrently. The track count and endless scrolling drove me mad.

I am using Logic and created Track Stacks for each instrument, but the constant expanding and collapsing to find the track playing did not do it for me.

I did not particularly fancy keyswitches as you cannot always remember where they reside on the keyboard. Bought a Complete Control with this in mind but as I have only space for the 61 Key found it a bit useless as the KS keys always seem to be out of range and so I have to -/+ an octave to find them, then find the playable keys out of range!

I have switched to using Art Conductor using automation to trigger Keyswitches (it also works for non KS patches such as HWS and VEP driven libraries using Multis on midi channels).

However keyswitches are also problematic. I also considered SkiSwitcher but like the visual automation lane.

Currently all systems are problematic. Every developer has differing articulations, differing default orders, different KS or none at all etc.

I also have found some issues with CSS, too me a while to get it working with Art Conductor as the default keyswitches used velocity for some articulations. Using Tacks excellent script helped get round this. But I don't like the current trills method, I would prefer playing one note like other libraries but have not found a way to do this yet.


----------



## tack

scoringdreams said:


> Hmmm not using notes as key switches...if I am not mistaken, the CSS video showed using the modwheel for keyswitching instead of notes. Will that work?


What I meant by "not using notes" is not using notes at the input side, i.e. what is in your recorded MIDI. They may ultimately translate to notes within the patch. For example, I use Program Change events for all articulation switching on all libraries in my template, and I just have a translation layer (generally FlexRouter which is a Kontakt multiscript) map my standardized program changes into whatever the library uses.

Out of the box, CSS articulations can be controlled via CC58, so that's what I use. All my program changes get translated to appropriate CC58 events on my CSS tracks.


----------



## tack

procreative said:


> But I don't like the current trills method, I would prefer playing one note like other libraries but have not found a way to do this yet.


Agreed. Planned for the next version.


----------



## JohnBMears

procreative said:


> I must admit I still cannot decide which method I prefer:
> 
> 1. 1 Articulation Per Midi Track or
> 2. Keyswitched articulations via 1 Midi Track
> 
> I tried the first option and spent ages setting it up (forced into this by Hollywood Strings and its lack of KS patches). However after using it for a while, while it is definitely easier to remember what track is playing what and also having the option to play several articulations concurrently. The track count and endless scrolling drove me mad.
> 
> I am using Logic and created Track Stacks for each instrument, but the constant expanding and collapsing to find the track playing did not do it for me.
> 
> I did not particularly fancy keyswitches as you cannot always remember where they reside on the keyboard. Bought a Complete Control with this in mind but as I have only space for the 61 Key found it a bit useless as the KS keys always seem to be out of range and so I have to -/+ an octave to find them, then find the playable keys out of range!
> 
> I have switched to using Art Conductor using automation to trigger Keyswitches (it also works for non KS patches such as HWS and VEP driven libraries using Multis on midi channels).
> 
> However keyswitches are also problematic. I also considered SkiSwitcher but like the visual automation lane.
> 
> Currently all systems are problematic. Every developer has differing articulations, differing default orders, different KS or none at all etc.
> 
> I also have found some issues with CSS, too me a while to get it working with Art Conductor as the default keyswitches used velocity for some articulations. Using Tacks excellent script helped get round this. But I don't like the current trills method, I would prefer playing one note like other libraries but have not found a way to do this yet.



Have you checked out ARTz-ID? More powerful take on SkiSwitcher (and for CSS it fixes your trill wish). Peter made a special script for CSS and ARTzID.


----------



## Hat_Tricky

I dont mean to derail this thread, but if anyone has any advice on how to change my expression/volume mapping (and as has been discussed here, alternatives to mapping keyswitches to actual keys) in Reaper to my Korg Kronos keyboard's faders (insterad of the default joystick) could you pm or post here?

http://vi-control.net/community/threads/how-to-assign-midi-controls-in-reaper.54859/

Back on topic, going to go ahead and get both CSS and Spitfire Chamber Strings i think. The deals that end today/tommorow are just too good and CSS sounds INCREDIBLE. I do love Albion ONE's sound, however i do need section patches and most certainly need more articulations (harmonics, trills, etc.)

The legato in particular sounds amazing.


----------



## tack

Hat_Tricky said:


> f anyone has any advice on how to change my expression/volume mapping (and as has been discussed here, alternatives to mapping keyswitches to actual keys) in Reaper to my Korg Kronos keyboard's faders (insterad of the default joystick) could you pm or post here?


If I understand correctly, you can't reprogram the CCs used by the Korg's faders so you want to remap in software? Just use an instance of the MIDI CC Mapper JSFX inserted before Kontakt to remap the CC sent by your controller to whatever you need (11 or 7 for expression or volume).


----------



## AllanH

JohnBMears said:


> So Allan, do you load the same CSS patch numerous times (one for each track in the DAW) and deactivate the 'other' articulations? How's that working?



Yes, that is how I work. Some of this work-flow was triggered by my extensive use of EW Hollywood Strings (HO in general). However, I actually like it and I'm using it with the majority of the VSTs. CSS is such a terrific fit with Hollywood Strings, that I like being able to e.g. duplicate a legato passage, and therefore find that easier when both instruments are configured the same.

Even for limited of use of Spitfire libs, I do the same: load the individual articulations and then not worry about randomly selecting articulation by playing "with both hands".

Hope this helps.


----------



## Hat_Tricky

tack said:


> If I understand correctly, you can't reprogram the CCs used by the Korg's faders so you want to remap in software? Just use an instance of the MIDI CC Mapper JSFX inserted before Kontakt to remap the CC sent by your controller to whatever you need (11 or 7 for expression or volume).



Thanks! I will try this. Can i PM you if i can't figure it out? I'm a chowderhead when it comes to software haha!

Would I need to insert this on every track, or would it work if i put it on a track that had nested tracks within it? like this...

orchestra
>strings
>>Albion ONE hi strings
>>Albion ONE low strings
>Brass
>>Albion ONE hi brass

would putting it on the "orchestra" track make it work for all nested tracks?


----------



## tack

Hat_Tricky said:


> Thanks! I will try this. Can i PM you if i can't figure it out? I'm a chowderhead when it comes to software haha!


Sure.


Hat_Tricky said:


> would putting it on the "orchestra" track make it work for all nested tracks?


No, unfortunately routing doesn't work in this direction. You'd need to apply the JSFX to each track.

If you wanted this mapping to be global, I'd probably use something like Bome MIDI Translator Pro to remap, but that can be even trickier to figure out.

But let's take a step back. Are you _sure_ your controller can't be configured to assign custom CCs to those faders? This is really the right place to do it. This thread suggests that it _is _possible. I'd first work on figuring that out.


----------



## Hat_Tricky

tack said:


> Sure.
> 
> No, unfortunately routing doesn't work in this direction. You'd need to apply the JSFX to each track.
> 
> If you wanted this mapping to be global, I'd probably use something like Bome MIDI Translator Pro to remap, but that can be even trickier to figure out.
> 
> But let's take a step back. Are you _sure_ your controller can't be configured to assign custom CCs to those faders? This is really the right place to do it. This thread suggests that it _is _possible. I'd first work on figuring that out.



Thanks so much for this. Been a crazy week, but I'm gonna check this out ASAP!


----------



## camelot

JohnBMears said:


> So Allan, do you load the same CSS patch numerous times (one for each track in the DAW) and deactivate the 'other' articulations? How's that working?


I think, you do not need to load the same patch several times. It should be possible to send various midi tracks to one VI and have every track with different time shift options. But I also prefer a single track per instrument. I use Cubase Expression Maps to get all instruments from different libraries to a consistent control system. The first thing I do when I bought a new lib is getting the expression map up and running. Then the lib is in my "system".


----------



## artmuz

procreative said:


> But I don't like the current trills method, I would prefer playing one note like other libraries but have not found a way to do this yet.


The trills reminds me of orchestral tools trill builder. 
I find this way of triggering trills absolutely genious. Almost every other lib have the WT/HT articulations, this is not musical unless only playing symmetric scales/chords (aug and dim)
One may not be able to trill a chord neither (look at debussy scores by ex.)

I had good and a few not so good surprises with this product, trills are in the good ones (for me)


----------



## N.Caffrey

artmuz said:


> The trills reminds me of orchestral tools trill builder.
> I find this way of triggering trills absolutely genious. Almost every other lib have the WT/HT articulations, this is not musical unless only playing symmetric scales/chords (aug and dim)
> One may not be able to trill a chord neither (look at debussy scores by ex.)
> 
> I had good and a few not so good surprises with this product, trills are in the good ones (for me)



What are the not so good surprises?


----------



## WindcryMusic

Do we have any idea of whether Alex has a patch in the works for the multiple non-vibrato issues? And if so, how does he historically (i.e., with CS and CS2) notify customers that a patch is available? Should I expect an email, or do I need to keep visiting the website periodically?

For reference, the issues I am referring to are:

1) non-vibrato legatos not sustaining at certain velocity levels
2) the blending of non-vibrato and vibrato samples when automating the vibrato level is not smooth - it gets way louder in the middle range of the controlling CC when both vibrato and non-vibrato samples are playing, and then the volume drops precipitously again as the CC gets to the top (full vibrato) values, as if the two samples are simply being played together without any volume adjustment for blending.

These have been the only significant problems for me in what is otherwise a beautiful library, but the problems are severe enough for me (because I really like the sound of non-vibrato strings) that they cause me to hesitate to start using CSS more than I would like.


----------



## Saxer

N.Caffrey said:


> What are the not so good surprises?


For me it's the inconsistent timing of the legatos. I wish it had a mode for 'not so sophisticated' but stable timing.


----------



## Darryl Jackson

Saxer said:


> For me it's the inconsistent timing of the legatos. I wish it had a mode for 'not so sophisticated' but stable timing.



It does! That's the intent of the "classic legato" patches. They have --slightly-- more lag than Hollywood Strings, but it's consistent. I'm considering adding them to my expression map just for playing around with/sketching... it's just a matter of not being lazy and getting around to editing my VE PRO template in my case.


----------



## neblix

Saxer said:


> For me it's the inconsistent timing of the legatos. I wish it had a mode for 'not so sophisticated' but stable timing.



The timing of the legatos is incredibly consistent. The velocity ranges for triggering different speeds are defined and documented, as well as even the transition times per type of legato:


----------



## Darryl Jackson

WindcryMusic said:


> Do we have any idea of whether Alex has a patch in the works for the multiple non-vibrato issues? And if so, how does he historically (i.e., with CS and CS2) notify customers that a patch is available? Should I expect an email, or do I need to keep visiting the website periodically?



He did say that the non-vibrato bug would be fixed in the commercial announcements thread. It even seemed like he had a rather good idea of what was causing the problem:



Alex W said:


> Hi there, sorry about that *I'll have it fixed in an update asap*! What's happening is the nonvib samples aren't triggering when:
> 
> triggering a Fast legato while using Standard Legato or
> triggering a Medium or Fast legato while using Advanced Legato.


[Bold emphasis mine, and the quoted text was trimmed: Alex (very helpfully!) then went on to explain a way to kind of work around the nonvib problem for now. Click the upwards-pointing arrow next to his name to see the full post.]

I'm not a Cinematic Strings 2 user, so I can't say how he's notified people in the past. Since I really do love the non-vibrato string ensemble sound, I have to admit that I'm very disappointed that we haven't had much of a heads up on when to expect the fix (after it was acknowledged just a couple of days after the release) but I'm still enjoying the library.

I of course understand that he's probably very busy with getting the other libraries ready for release and as far as I remember, Native Instruments can be a bit of a pain when dealing with updating Kontakt Player libraries.


----------



## artmuz

N.Caffrey said:


> What are the not so good surprises?


many are quoted here by colleagues but one I noticed is VL2 dynamic layers, the higher layer is not in tune with others. There may be a musical sense to that "more intense > a notch too high" but this is noticeable. For the others things I've not noted down and now I'm in a hurry with a project so I can't just right now go through.


----------



## Ashermusic

I have to say that I am falling in love with CSS. I just submitted my mostly positive review for macProVideo.ocm


----------



## Ashermusic

jieff said:


> When can we read ?!




I will let you know when they post it. Probably next month.


----------



## D-Mott

Ashermusic said:


> I have to say that I am falling in love with CSS. I just submitted my mostly positive review for macProVideo.ocm


Is the vibrato growing on you, Jay?


----------



## Ashermusic

D-Mott said:


> Is the vibrato growing on you, Jay?



No, it is still a little erratic controlling it with cc2 all the way down even and then moving cc1. But if I put a gain plug-in on it in Logic Pro I can keep the modwheel in a lower position, which helps 

Like Hollywood Strings, it is a library that you need to develop some technique with, but more than any other string library I think it sounds beautiful even without reverb without losing detail.


----------



## AllanH

I agree - CSS is finding its way onto many of my tracks. I'm really looking forward to the solo strings, as I don't really have a library that performs and sounds as I'd like.


----------



## vewilya

Ashermusic said:


> No, it is still a little erratic controlling it with cc2 all the way down even and then moving cc1. But if I put a gain plug-in on it in Logic Pro I can keep the modwheel in a lower position, which helps
> 
> Like Hollywood Strings, it is a library that you need to develop some technique with, but more than any other string library I think it sounds beautiful even without reverb without losing detail.



Maybe this is a silly question but since it sounds awesome just by itself without any reverb, I was wondering how it reacts to external reverb? Like Ewql Spaces, Lexicon PCM or a hardware reverb like a TC Reverb 4000. I have the feeling that any addition of reverb makes you loose detail a.o. That could be a problem for mixing? I don't owe it yet. But I'm on the brink of buying it. Adagietto from 8dio would be another option maybe...
Greetings Urs


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

vewilya said:


> Maybe this is a silly question but since it sounds awesome just by itself without any reverb, I was wondering how it reacts to external reverb? Like Ewql Spaces, Lexicon PCM or a hardware reverb like a TC Reverb 4000. I have the feeling that any addition of reverb makes you loose detail a.o. That could be a problem for mixing? I don't owe it yet. But I'm on the brink of buying it. Adagietto from 8dio would be another option maybe...
> Greetings Urs



It doesn't react differently to reverb than any other library, or any other source of audio for that matter. Meaning: it all comes down to judicious use of external effects. One can drown pretty much anything in reverb with the wrong settings. Detail is lost when you overdo it. I've been using Spaces together with CSS and to me, it works just fine.


----------



## Saxer

neblix said:


> The timing of the legatos is incredibly consistent. The velocity ranges for triggering different speeds are defined and documented, as well as even the transition times per type of legato:


Yepp, I know the concept and it is very elaborated in itself. I don't want them to change that at all.
But the different delays of different legatos makes it difficult for some use. When you play slow and fast you get different delays, even in standard legato mode.
That means
- you can't quantize
- you can't use it with or export to a notation program
- you can't stack with other libraries
- you can't copy phrases to other instruments (i.e. doubling CSS violins with a VSL flute)
without having an inconsistent timing. You can't even change the song tempo without the risk of timing surprises.

It would really be great if there was either the option to select 'fast legato' only, or having a constant delay (300ms) for all legato articulations (which could be compensated by a negative delay in the DAW). Should not be very complicated to add this options selectable on the GUI.


----------



## Batrawi

Saxer said:


> It would really be great if there was either the option to select 'fast legato' only, or having a constant delay (300ms) for all legato articulations (which could be compensated by a negative delay in the DAW). Should not be very complicated to add this options selectable on the GUI.



I'm having same issues when working with CSS Legato system. I like it very much but one has no idea what are the fast/medium/slow notes being played in order to be able to edit them appropriately later.

I wish they can make the legato speeds keyswitchable (or locked by keyswitch like Spitfire's stuff). That way you have control on what legato type is being played and when it is being played which will make life lot easier


----------



## prodigalson

Batrawi said:


> I'm having same issues when working with CSS Legato system. I like it very much but one has no idea what are the fast/medium/slow notes being played in order to be able to edit them appropriately later.
> 
> I wish they can make the legato speeds keyswitchable (or locked by keyswitch like Spitfire's stuff). That way you have control on what legato type is being played and when it is being played which will make life lot easier



Maybe this is a stupid question, I haven't dived into CSS too far yet but can't you just force a legato type by always playing that velocity? e.g always play hard if you want to force a fast legato?


----------



## Batrawi

prodigalson said:


> Maybe this is a stupid question, I haven't dived into CSS too far yet but can't you just force a legato type by always playing that velocity? e.g always play hard if you want to force a fast legato?


1st-you have to be a very good keyboard player to do that + adapting your playing style to these velocities that you cannot edit

2nd- Even if you succeeded in the above, good luck to differentiate between these notes when you wish to edit the delay for each of them.

So the practical solution is to simply force/have control over the legato type, which will be very easy to spot in the midi editor by its keyswitch.


----------



## Baron Greuner

Batrawi said:


> 1st-you have to be a very good keyboard player to do that + adapting your playing style to these velocities that you cannot edit
> 
> 2nd- Even if you succeeded in the above, good luck to differentiate between these notes when you wish to edit the delay for each of them.
> 
> So the practical solution is to simply force/have control over the legato type, which will be very easy to spot in the midi editor by its keyswitch.



1. That's a virtual impossibility, especially when you take into account that midi keyboards are basically crap more or less.

2. Very good point, but you'll never succeed in doing 1.

All midi keyboards are a very hit and miss affair when it comes to playing. Even the very best are ropey. I suppose a lot of people have learnt to play on a midi keyboard from the word go, and this is possibly the very worst thing anyone could do when it comes to developing any kind of meaningful technique.


----------



## prodigalson

Batrawi said:


> 1st-you have to be a very good keyboard player to do that + adapting your playing style to these velocities that you cannot edit
> 
> 2nd- Even if you succeeded in the above, good luck to differentiate between these notes when you wish to edit the delay for each of them.
> 
> So the practical solution is to simply force/have control over the legato type, which will be very easy to spot in the midi editor by its keyswitch.



Again, maybe I just haven't used CSS enough but:

1. it's not like there are a huge amount of different legato types. I don't think you have to be a very good keyboard player to either play very softly or very hard to get the slow and fast legatos respectively. For the other 2 legato types you could simply go in after the fact and adjust the velocities to their appropriate ranges. In fact, I'm not sure it would even take THAT much practice or time with the instrument to learn how hard to play for those legato types anyway. 

2. Most DAWs color notes by velocity so it might not be THAT difficult to tell which notes are which?


----------



## Batrawi

prodigalson said:


> Again, maybe I just haven't used CSS enough but:
> 
> 1. it's not like there are a huge amount of different legato types. I don't think you have to be a very good keyboard player to either play very softly or very hard to get the slow and fast legatos respectively. For the other 2 legato types you could simply go in after the fact and adjust the velocities to their appropriate ranges. In fact, I'm not sure it would even take THAT much practice or time with the instrument to learn how hard to play for those legato types anyway.
> 
> 2. Most DAWs color notes by velocity so it might not be THAT difficult to tell which notes are which?



If you want to get the best out of the library then you would use the advance legato which includes:fast+medium+slow+portamento! That's FOUR legato types per patch, so it doesn't seem to be the smartest option to be velocity triggered specially in the midi world where many great composers really suck at playing keyboard.

As for notes coloured by velocity, that may be fun for ladies who contemplate gradient colours.. But for men you know..grey could be black and grey could be white if this makes any sense

My point is you already waste your precious time in midi editing, so there is really no need for such issue when it can be easily fixed.


----------



## prodigalson

Batrawi said:


> As for notes coloured by velocity, that may be fun for ladies who contemplate gradient colours.. But for men you know..grey could be black and grey could be white if this makes any sense



Lol, I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're referring to color blindness and not saying "colors are for ladies" lol!!


----------



## Saxer

prodigalson said:


> ...
> In fact, I'm not sure it would even take THAT much practice or time with the instrument to learn how hard to play for those legato types anyway.


That's right. But this doesn't help if you want to (real time) stack libraries which demands another velocity as the CSS fast legato.

Again: I don't want them to change their concept! If working with this library alone it really works well. All I whish is the possibility to have a 'constant timing legato'-mode (beside the two already existing modes). I really don't think it would be too much work to implement into the current concept. And it would be really helpful in the mentioned situations.


----------



## AllanH

I feel like I'm missing some part of the legato concern. With that said, here is how I work: I record using long patches, quantize as necessary, adjust overlap, set legato to Advanced, and change the key velocity to match the legato style I'm after. I then finally adjust the midi by e.g. -300ms so the slow legato "trigger" as expected. This mixes wonderfully with HO and others. Most of the edit steps take the form "select all", then edit all notes at once.

I do realize that if I intend to use multiple legato speeds this requires multiple tracks, but in general I find the legato very predictable. My DAW does not let me automate the midi timing which would have allowed me to use just one track. One way or another, I'd expect a slow legato transition to be slower than a fast and the timing to correspond to that.


----------



## Kejero

Ashermusic said:


> But if I put a gain plug-in on it in Logic Pro I can keep the modwheel in a lower position, which helps



Hey Jay, any specific reason you'd rather use a plugin as opposed to just raising the master volume of the Kontakt sampler?


----------



## Pontus Rufelt

Absolutely loving CSS. Has quickly become my go to library for strings. Here's a quick doodle I made with it.


----------



## rpaillot

Any news regarding the vibrato cc2 bug ?


----------



## OleJoergensen

Pontus Rufelt said:


> Absolutely loving CSS. Has quickly become my go to library for strings. Here's a quick doodle I made with it.



It sounds very good and wonderful but short composition. Thank you for sharing.


----------



## mojamusic

Pontus Rufelt said:


> Absolutely loving CSS. Has quickly become my go to library for strings. Here's a quick doodle I made with it.



this is a beautiful arrangement! Carry on good sir! BTW what other bring libraries do you own?


----------



## Hat_Tricky

Has anyone been blending CSS with Spitfire Chamber Strings? I'm about to purchase both and was wondering how well they work with each other!


----------



## Pontus Rufelt

OleJoergensen said:


> It sounds very good and wonderful but short composition. Thank you for sharing.



Thank you Ole! 



mojamusic said:


> this is a beautiful arrangement! Carry on good sir! BTW what other bring libraries do you own?



Thank you for your kind words mojamusic! Previously I've mostly used Hollywood Strings Gold mixed with the Adagio Series. I also use Soaring Strings which I love as well, such incredibly agile legato!


----------



## passsacaglia

Guys, sorry, left the con sords on when I recorded the piece hehe.
Here's a new better one where you really hear the violins play. Feedback always appreciated since I'm kinda new into this library and playin "solo violin". 
/D


----------



## Batrawi

Anyone knows what the CS Solo Strings will be like?

Is it gonna be a first-chairs library (with 2nd violin and all instruments recorded in their position)

Or just 1 violin and all instruments are centered?

Maybe option 1 makes more sense to fit with the "Series" concept... Yet the library's name is a bit confusing though


----------



## ChristopherDoucet

Is there a reason to buy CS2 now that CSS is out? I've always wanted Cinematic Strings, but it looks like Cinematic Studio Strings is a newer version of it in some way?


----------



## Batrawi

ChristopherDoucet said:


> Is there a reason to buy CS2 now that CSS is out? I've always wanted Cinematic Strings, but it looks like Cinematic Studio Strings is a newer version of it in some way?


Bottom line they're just from the same developer but they are completely different.
-CSS seems designed to give you a very authentic strings section sound with just the natural ambience of the stage where it was recorded and offers a wide range of articulation.
-CS2 has less articulations. One legato type(while CSS has 3 legato speeds which adds more to realism). The sound of CS2 also sounds ready/processed


----------



## kurtvanzo

ChristopherDoucet said:


> Is there a reason to buy CS2 now that CSS is out? I've always wanted Cinematic Strings, but it looks like Cinematic Studio Strings is a newer version of it in some way?


CS2 is a larger section in a hall, and has a bigger sound, CSS is smaller and in a studio. Both sound great but not the same. CSS has a edge because it's newer and better laid out with a few more articulations (measure trems and harmonics for example) and a smooth sound. But CS2 is still great for getting a larger sound and mixes well with Hollwood strings or Berlin Strings.


----------



## Fer

Hi, just a quick question...
can you writte synched triplets with the meassured tremolo of CSS?


----------



## Fer

Hey jieff, thanks : ) i was asking because if im not wrong what i see in the videos is a two bow stroke articulation with the first note accented... if that is the case performing this patch with the math formula you said would give you undesired accents in a sequence of triplets... but perhaps im totally wrong... can you decide where to put the accent in these synch tremolo patches?


----------



## Fer

Thanks anyway jieff


----------



## bc3po

Love CSS but has anyone else noticed the short strings are all late? Compared to other libraries I have my predelay set at an extra -25 ms


----------



## Jediwario1

It would make more sense (to me) for all the articulations have the same pre-delay especially the legatos. Then have a version of all the articulations with 0 pre-delay so you can play them without any delay.


----------



## bc3po

FGBR said:


> Yes, I noticed that as well and fiddled  around with the delay settings, ending up at around -60ms. And then I did something I rarely do, consulted the manual, where I found this:
> 
> _Short Note Delay
> 
> Please note that there is a short delay of 60ms from the beginning of the short note samples to their “rhythmic peak.” We left this in the samples intentionally as we believe this adds a significant degree of realism, and most importantly, it ensures that the timing across all short note types is consistent. So make sure you account for this when quantising short note tracks, either by applying a negative 60ms delay to the whole track, or moving the the notes back manually. _


Thanks. What a weird feature...


----------



## Hat_Tricky

There is a way to control vibrato amount on the fly for Cinematic Studio Strings on all patches (that it would be appropriate for, that is), correct? I don't really see a slider on the GUI


----------



## AllanH

Hat_Tricky said:


> There is a way to control vibrato amount on the fly for Cinematic Studio Strings on all patches (that it would be appropriate for, that is), correct? I don't really see a slider on the GUI



You have to use automation on CC2, at least that what I do.

Edit: alternatively, I map it to one of the controllers on my kurzweil, and can use that in realtime.


----------



## bc3po

AllanH said:


> You have to use automation on CC2, at least that what I do.
> 
> Edit: alternatively, I map it to one of the controllers on my kurzweil, and can use that in realtime.


Unfortunately there's a bug you can't really use vibrato control yet :/


----------



## Hat_Tricky

bc3po said:


> Unfortunately there's a bug you can't really use vibrato control yet :/



I'm assuming its coming though?


----------



## Hat_Tricky

Was wondering if anyone cared to take the time to whip up a version of Christof's The Robber (such a great piece, bravo Christof!!!) with Spitfire Chamber Strings to compare? Or any of the other popular "comparison" compositions in this thread!

I realize that Spoitfire Chamber Strings consists of very small sections compared to most of the libraries people have prepared with Christof's piece, but I would be very interested to hear it against Berlin, CSS, CS2, and all the others posted in this thread.

I'm currently debating between buying Berlin Main + exp A and B, or getting CSS + Spitfire Chamber Strings. What a choice!


----------



## fgimian

Could anyone who owns NI Symphony Series String Ensembles please provide a bit of a comparison between them and CSS?


----------



## WindcryMusic

fgimian said:


> Could anyone who owns NI Symphony Series String Ensembles please provide a bit of a comparison between them and CSS?



I have both, as well as several of the Albions, EWQLSO Gold, etc., and from my limited use thus far, I prefer CSS for most things, followed closely by Albion 2/1/ONE and with SSSE in 3rd place. CSS is a good bit darker and warmer than SSSE, which I find to be a bit too piercing and strident out of the box. I have had some luck with EQing SSSE to mellow it out a bit, but CSS still wins for producing natural-sounding, expressive strings without much tweaking. CSS also takes EQing very well if a more in-your-face string sound is needed. SSSE does seem to have a greater dynamic range than CSS, though, in case that matters to you. My only real problem with CSS is a pair of bugs associated with non-vibrato (some samples not triggering in legato mode when playing non-vibrato at certain velocities, and the uneven mixing with blending between non-vibrato and vibrato samples), which I am hoping will be patched soon. SSSE has some bugs as well, like samples not triggering in a particular velocity range for a particular divisi section (documented near the end of the main SSSE thread), and frankly I don't have a lot of faith that those are going to be fixed.

I don't have audio references for you that compare any other articulations, but at least there is this: in the main CSS thread, Christof posted a piece exercising the CSS shorts:

Cinematic Studio Strings

Then later in that thread, I posted a version of the same piece (using the same MIDI file as a starting point, and tweaking it a bit as needed) using NI SSSE:

Cinematic Studio Strings


----------



## 5Lives

Hat_Tricky said:


> I'm assuming its coming though?


We've all been assuming that, but unfortunately, no updates from Alex...


----------



## marco berco

Peter Schwartz did a wonderful work programming a special CSS Script which fixed this bug, the name is ARTz-ID, it replaces too all the keyswitches and/or other technical stuff that is not user-friendly in CSS (and on other libraries too) by attributing in the Event List an ID for each note (corresponding to each of the 23 articulations possible in CSS) or you can change the ID in realtime with a Keyboard or something like a Touch OSC. I am using his software also replacing the UACC in Spitfire Audio and also with Hollywood Orchestra to change patches with a midi channel and it changed my life, I avoid using KS now and I can't work without the Peter's Script...


----------



## Mucusman

marco berco said:


> Peter Schwartz did a wonderful work programming a special CSS Script which fixed this bug



This works only for those using Logic Pro. Happy for those who can use it... for others, that's a no-go.


----------



## fgimian

WindcryMusic said:


> I have both, as well as several of the Albions, EWQLSO Gold, etc., and from my limited use thus far, I prefer CSS for most things, followed closely by Albion 2/1/ONE and with SSSE in 3rd place. CSS is a good bit darker and warmer than SSSE, which I find to be a bit too piercing and strident out of the box. I have had some luck with EQing SSSE to mellow it out a bit, but CSS still wins for producing natural-sounding, expressive strings without much tweaking. CSS also takes EQing very well if a more in-your-face string sound is needed. SSSE does seem to have a greater dynamic range than CSS, though, in case that matters to you. My only real problem with CSS is a pair of bugs associated with non-vibrato (some samples not triggering in legato mode when playing non-vibrato at certain velocities, and the uneven mixing with blending between non-vibrato and vibrato samples), which I am hoping will be patched soon. SSSE has some bugs as well, like samples not triggering in a particular velocity range for a particular divisi section (documented near the end of the main SSSE thread), and frankly I don't have a lot of faith that those are going to be fixed.
> 
> I don't have audio references for you that compare any other articulations, but at least there is this: in the main CSS thread, Christof posted a piece exercising the CSS shorts:
> 
> Cinematic Studio Strings
> 
> Then later in that thread, I posted a version of the same piece (using the same MIDI file as a starting point, and tweaking it a bit as needed) using NI SSSE:
> 
> Cinematic Studio Strings



Thank you so much. The audio examples are particularly helpful also and re-iterate what you've described. SSE seems to have a more raw sound (akin to LASS) and is more direct while CSS appears to be much wider and richer.

This makes my decision a little easier.

I also own Albion I and II and love them but need a dedicated string library for more detailed passages and glissando.


----------



## Batrawi

Guys, Is it possible to assign these CC values to my midi keyboard (the only midi controller I have)?
I simply want to have a keyswitch for each articulation/sub-articulation in CSS on my keyboard...(their velocity-sensitive keyswitches is not my thing )


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

Do you have any faders or turn knobs on your keyboard? You can assign CC58 to one of these and use it as your articulation switch.


----------



## Batrawi

My keyboard is very basic unfortunately (m-audio 88es). But I wouldn't use faders/knobs anyway cause again this will make me "search" for the articulation rather than triggering it with one button. That's why I'm searching for a keyswitch solution.


----------



## lucor

Batrawi said:


> Guys, Is it possible to assign these CC values to my midi keyboard (the only midi controller I have)?
> I simply want to have a keyswitch for each articulation/sub-articulation in CSS on my keyboard...(their velocity-sensitive keyswitches is not my thing )


What DAW are you using? In Cubase it would be pretty easy to do with Expression Maps.


----------



## Batrawi

lucor said:


> What DAW are you using? In Cubase it would be pretty easy to do with Expression Maps.


Using studio one. Heard a lot of great things about expression maps, but it's only in cubase as far as i know


----------



## Batrawi

Thanks guys...I found a way around. 
Used KS router from Orange Tree to switch between multiple instances of the instrument (each instance loaded with one single articulation activated while purging the rest of the articulations) and it works very well


----------



## tack

Batrawi said:


> Used KS router from Orange Tree to switch between multiple instances of the instrument (each instance loaded with one single articulation activated while purging the rest of the articulations) and it works very well


FlexRouter could do this without the need for loading separate patches. This would result in lower memory use. You'd set up your standard keyswitches and then use FlexRouter to redirect to CC58 based on the table above.

This video shows how to set that up. Although in that example I used Program Change events as the input trigger, you could easily use notes too.


----------



## WindcryMusic

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Do you have any faders or turn knobs on your keyboard? You can assign CC58 to one of these and use it as your articulation switch.



I wonder if anyone would actually try to do this with a fader or knob? Particularly in the case of CSS, I can't see how it would work, since it would be physically impossible to dial up a combination of Advanced CS Legato (for example) by using such a controller (since it would have to spin through all of the intervening articulations to get from the Advanced value to the CS value (again, for example). You'd have to go into the generated MIDI data afterward to delete all of the intervening events before the performance would actually use the sound you intended, which I'd think pretty much removes the value of using the knob or fader at all. It seems to me that the only way to make this scheme work for CSS would be with individual buttons that send each of the CC values (I'm planning to make a Lemur template to do exactly that in the very near future). Or is there something I am missing?


----------



## Batrawi

tack said:


> FlexRouter could do this without the need for loading separate patches. This would result in lower memory use. You'd set up your standard keyswitches and then use FlexRouter to redirect to CC58 based on the table above.
> 
> This video shows how to set that up. Although in that example I used Program Change events as the input trigger, you could easily use notes too.


Very interesting! I must try it


----------



## tack

WindcryMusic said:


> Particularly in the case of CSS, I can't see how it would work, since it would be physically impossible to dial up a combination of Advanced CS Legato (for example) by using such a controller (since it would have to spin through all of the intervening articulations to get from the Advanced value to the CS value (again, for example).


With FlexRouter as a translation layer between CSS and that encoder or fader, you actually _could_ do that. But yeah, I can't imagine why anyone would _want _to.


----------



## Batrawi

@tack
I followed step by step your first example for redirecting CSS legato and it worked. however I found that some notes were missing, specifically B3, D4 and E4! Not sure what I'm doing wrong...


----------



## tack

Batrawi said:


> I followed step by step your first example for redirecting CSS legato and it worked. however I found that some notes were missing, specifically B3, D4 and E4! Not sure what I'm doing wrong...


I'm not really quite sure what you mean by missing. I mean, you do have to add the keyswitches, or MIDI learn them. Can you follow up over PM and explain the steps you took to configure it?


----------



## fgimian

Hey guys, just starting to play around with CSS. One thing I immediately find a little odd is how you must assign vibrato crossfade to a controller just to change it. Is there anywhere on the GUI where you can alter this or is a controller the only way?


----------



## Batrawi

fgimian said:


> Hey guys, just starting to play around with CSS. One thing I immediately find a little odd is how you must assign vibrato crossfade to a controller just to change it. Is there anywhere on the GUI where you can alter this or is a controller the only way?


There is a gear icon on the GUI beside the Cinematic Studio Strings name. It will open up a menue where you can alter this


----------



## fgimian

Batrawi said:


> There is a gear icon on the GUI beside the Cinematic Studio Strings name. It will open up a menue where you can alter this



Thanks, yeah I'm aware of that panel, but it only seems to allow you to re-assign which CC controls vibrate crossfade. It doesn't provide you with a knob on the GUI to change it with your mouse. Or am I missing something? :(


----------



## Batrawi

fgimian said:


> Thanks, yeah I'm aware of that panel, but it only seems to allow you to re-assign which CC controls vibrate crossfade. It doesn't provide you with a knob on the GUI to change it with your mouse. Or am I missing something? :(


Aha sorry I misunderstood your question. Yeah it has no GUI control as far as I know


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

This is something that always bugs me with library GUIs. I don't necessarily need a GUI knob that I can control with my mouse, but I just can't understand why a lot of GUIs don't even have a visual value display of the parameters. There has to be something that tells you where your CC1, CC11, vibrato etc. currently sits at.


----------



## dreamnight92

Finally purchrased and downloading right now! 
Since I'm not practical with kontakt stuff, do you now if I can validate the license in more machines?


----------



## jononotbono

dreamnight92 said:


> Finally purchrased and downloading right now!
> Since I'm not practical with kontakt stuff, do you now if I can validate the license in more machines?



On their website it says yes. 2 Machines.


----------



## N.Caffrey

it'd be nice to hear some more demos, I loved the ones posted previously


----------



## fgimian

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> This is something that always bugs me with library GUIs. I don't necessarily need a GUI knob that I can control with my mouse, but I just can't understand why a lot of GUIs don't even have a visual value display of the parameters. There has to be something that tells you where your CC1, CC11, vibrato etc. currently sits at.



I agree, and to be honest, having a knob or similar is extremely helpful in the case that you don't wish to automate the parameter. NI Strings for example has knobs for all controllable parameters including vibrato crossfade.


----------



## fgimian

Here's my initial review after playing with the library for a good hour:

*Pros:*

Gorgeous, full tone. Very expressive.
Can be very aggressive where required, the shorts really have bite and can hit hard.
Con sordino emulation imho is actually really good! I was expecting way worse but it is pretty convincing and gives you the advantage of having sordino legato which similarly priced libraries don't offer.
Some of the best legatos I have ever heard in a string library, WOW!!!
Excellent set of articulations, nothing is really missing here
Stunning harmonics, some of the nicest I've heard
Cons

Some knobs on the UI are missing (vibrato crossfade, portamento volume .etc), the only way to adjust these is to assign them to a CC and then use that
The transition from non-vibrato to vibrato isn't so subtle and there are no legato transitions on non-vibrato it seems
I am finding that the modulation wheel at very low volumes is hard to control and jumpy, it goes from silent to present without transition and then similarly to the next volume level after which it settles, anyone else notice this?
Some instruments (e.g. Lite Ensemble) load up with the mod wheel set to 0. I initially had no idea why I couldn't hear any sound. This behaviour is inconsistent throughout the instruments too.
I believe I'm noticing a strange problem when vibrato is turned all the way down, lost notes? I need to investigate further.
The default release value (when legato is turned off) is a bit too long. I think it should be around 83.
I think that with a few more tweaks to the UI and a few more bug fixes, this library could really be one of THE standards for our community, and at its price point, it makes really great quality strings affordable to more people.

More to follow 

Cheers
Fotis


----------



## Ashermusic

fgimian said:


> Cons
> 
> The transition from non-vibrato to vibrato isn't so subtle and there are no legato transitions or non-vibrato it seems
> I am finding that the modulation wheel at very low volumes is hard to control and jumpy, it goes from silent to present without transition and then similarly to the next volume level after which it settles, anyone else notice this?
> The default release value (when legato is turned off) is a bit too long. I think it should be around 83.
> 
> Cheers
> Fotis



These are also my issues with the library.


----------



## fgimian

Ah, good to see it's not just me.

If I'm being completely honest, the sound of Spitfire's Mural (based on various video demos) is actually richer than CSS. I was a bit surprised to find that CSS isn't actually all that wide (stereo imaging) and I think this has to do with all sections being recorded panned in their regular positions. It seems that Mural doesn't do this and it seems to have a much wider soundstage and ultimately a more polished tone (which may or may not be to your liking).

If Spitfire re-release Mural as they did Sable, I'm buying it! It really is one of the few libraries that has "THE" sound


----------



## Ashermusic

fgimian said:


> Ah, good to see it's not just me.
> 
> If I'm being completely honest, the sound of Spitfire's Mural (based on various video demos) is actually richer than CSS. I was a bit surprised to find that CSS isn't actually all that wide (stereo imaging) and I think this has to do with all sections being recorded panned in their regular positions. It seems that Mural doesn't do this and it seems to have a much wider soundstage and ultimately a more polished tone (which may or may not be to your liking).
> 
> If Spitfire re-release Mural as they did Sable, I'm buying it! It really is one of the few libraries that has "THE" sound




Well, there we disagree.


----------



## Musicam

Hi Fgimian, how are you? At this respect, what kind the reverb uses for Mural?


----------



## babylonwaves

I have a strange issue with the Trills. Oftentimes they don't play. Did a batch re-save which didn't cure the issue. Does anybody else have this?


----------



## Ashermusic

babylonwaves said:


> I have a strange issue with the Trills. Oftentimes they don't play. Did a batch re-save which didn't cure the issue. Does anybody else have this?



They work here as described in the manual.


----------



## jeremiahpena

jieff said:


> A question for those who have CSS, about the measured tremolos: How do they work? Accent on the first note + a few up-down bows? If so, how many if you hold a key down?



They have a single up bow after the initial note (2 total), which makes it extremely playable. Unfortunately it doesn't really work for triplet figures because of this.


----------



## tack

fgimian said:


> I am finding that the modulation wheel at very low volumes is hard to control and jumpy, it goes from silent to present without transition and then similarly to the next volume level after which it settles, anyone else notice this?


Definitely. I wrote a small multiscript to try to tame the transition from pp(p?) to niente. You can tweak the CC1_MIN_THRESHOLD value to taste, which controls at what point the script will kick in to smoothen out the volume. Also if you prefer linear scaling, you could refer back to the original source. The code below is quadratic which I feel works better but some might prefer the feel of linear.



Code:


{ This is compiled code. Original source at https://gist.github.com/jtackaberry/cc28f6d974e632c6e0e9c6f1635afb7b }
on init
    declare const $CC1_MIN_THRESHOLD := 30
    declare %last_cc_in[128] := (127)
    make_persistent(%last_cc_in)
    read_persistent_var(%last_cc_in)
    declare $last_cc11_out := 127
    make_persistent($last_cc11_out)
    read_persistent_var($last_cc11_out)
    declare $value
end on

on midi_in
    if ($MIDI_COMMAND=$MIDI_COMMAND_CC and ($MIDI_BYTE_1=1 or ($MIDI_BYTE_1=11)))
        %last_cc_in[$MIDI_BYTE_1] := $MIDI_BYTE_2
        $value := %last_cc_in[1]*%last_cc_in[1]*%last_cc_in[11]/($CC1_MIN_THRESHOLD*$CC1_MIN_THRESHOLD)
        if ($value>%last_cc_in[11])
            $value := %last_cc_in[11]
        end if
        if ($MIDI_BYTE_1=11)
            ignore_midi
        end if
        if ($value # $last_cc11_out)
            set_midi($MIDI_CHANNEL,$MIDI_COMMAND_CC,11,$value)
            $last_cc11_out := $value
        end if
    end if
end on


----------



## fgimian

Ashermusic said:


> Well, there we disagree.



I really should give it more time, I only finished the download tonight



Musicam said:


> Hi Fgimian, how are you? At this respect, what kind the reverb uses for Mural?



Hi, I don't own Mural but am basing my feel for it on demos. However personally I like ValhallaVintageVerb on Smooth Plate for orchestral sounds so far. When I used to produce trance, I would almost always use ArtsAcoustic Reverb but that honestly sounds a tad too thick on orchestral sounds imho.



babylonwaves said:


> I have a strange issue with the Trills. Oftentimes they don't play. Did a batch re-save which didn't cure the issue. Does anybody else have this?



You need to actually hold the two notes down that you wish to trill 



jieff said:


> Speaking of the manual, I couldn't find it anywhere online.. I imagine one must buy the library to read it.
> 
> A question for those who have CSS, about the measured tremolos: How do they work? Accent on the first note + a few up-down bows? If so, how many if you hold a key down?



Yeah, the manual comes in the download under the Documentation folder. I'm not sure if it's available freely at this stage.


----------



## fgimian

Just before I get to bed, I truly think I was mistaken re the stereo width. The ensemble patches are incredibly wide, even wider than the Albion ONE strings. I'll need to dig into it further to see why the individual instruments came across less wide.

There's also something rather magical about CSS. It's expressive and playable without even moving the mod wheel. By comparison, Albion ONE's strings come off a bit marcato-like and therefore you need to use the mod wheel to add some expression for slower passages.

I do feel that CSS really needs a little EQ to shine though, its tone is certainly more laid back than Albion for instance. A little more treble and lower mids seems to help the sound a lot.

I'll post more detailed comparisons and some suggested EQ settings as I learn the library more.


----------



## Vik

fgimian said:


> I do feel that CSS really needs a little EQ to shine though, its tone is certainly more laid back than Albion for instance. A little more treble and lower mids seems to help the sound a lot.
> 
> I'll post more detailed comparisons...


It would actually be interesting with some audio files demonstrating the differences, is possible....


----------



## babylonwaves

fgimian said:


> You need to actually hold the two notes down that you wish to trill


oh. thanks. mental note to myself: RTFM


----------



## fgimian

Vik said:


> It would actually be interesting with some audio files demonstrating the differences, is possible....



Sure, just have a busy day planned tomorrow but I'll get some audio in the coming day or two 



babylonwaves said:


> oh. thanks. mental note to myself: RTFM



Haha, don't feel bad, it took me a while to figure out myself! ... that along with the fact I was hearing no audio because the mod wheel defaults to 0 on many presets 

I still haven't read the manual either


----------



## Ashermusic

fgimian said:


> There's also something rather magical about CSS. It's expressive and playable without even moving the mod wheel.



Yes. i will be honest, i did not want to love this library. I am a Hollywood Strings guy (which I still love) and I frequently blend them with Kirk Hunter's Concert Strings, which I also really like. 

But CS2 is very good and I have recommended it to my clients who did not need every imaginable articulation, were not prepared to make the investment in time and gear that is needed for HS and all the reverb experimenting and stuff that you need to do with Kirk's, but just wanted a lush out of the box sound all in one instrument patch.

So I was curious. And I like this one even better. It is lush and yet really transparent. You do need to get a specific technique to work with it and yes, it has some bugs and flaws, but I am just loving it and it is now the foundation of my new "Quick Compose" template.


----------



## jeremiahpena

Here's a couple of CSS example uses.

This first one uses only the close mics, which are really rich. There's an EQ bump at about 12 kHz.


And here's CSS in context with a big orchestral piece. Some emotional moments, tension, and action. This is using a mix of Close and Main mics, with the emphasis on close mics. All strings are CSS except for two Albion IV patches (0:23, and the gliss at 3:52). Same high EQ boost as the previous track.


----------



## Hat_Tricky

jeremiahpena said:


> Here's a couple of CSS example uses.
> 
> This first one uses only the close mics, which are really rich. There's an EQ bump at about 12 kHz.
> 
> 
> And here's CSS in context with a big orchestral piece. Some emotional moments, tension, and action. This is using a mix of Close and Main mics, with the emphasis on close mics. All strings are CSS except for two Albion IV patches (0:23, and the gliss at 3:52). Same high EQ boost as the previous track.




Thanks for posting these, and outstanding work - sounds great!!! Some people have said the dynamic range of CSS is a bit lacking but I think it sounded fine here in that 2nd piece that really shows off dynamic range through the whole orchestra. Not sure how much is helped by the actual composition/orchestration (which is outstanding) but the strings sound like they really have a big dynamic range.


----------



## jeremiahpena

Hat_Tricky said:


> Thanks for posting these, and outstanding work - sounds great!!! Some people have said the dynamic range of CSS is a bit lacking but I think it sounded fine here in that 2nd piece that really shows off dynamic range through the whole orchestra. Not sure how much is helped by the actual composition/orchestration (which is outstanding) but the strings sound like they really have a big dynamic range.


The dynamic range feels really natural to me, and close to my experience of playing cello in a college orchestra. The shorts in particular have a realistic lower limit that varies between articulations. The quietest spiccatos are louder than the quietest staccatos due to the nature of how they're played. Bartok snaps don't get very quiet at all. Compare that to Hollywood Strings, where all of the above can drop down nearly to silence.


----------



## Hat_Tricky

5Lives said:


> So comparing to Berlin Strings (which has a slightly smaller section), but who's rendition of the MIDI sounded pretty great:
> 
> CSS
> - $399, ~35GB
> - Playable legato - 4 types (portamento, slow, medium, fast)
> - Fast runs patch (Marcato)
> - Legato repetition
> - Bow attack control
> - Crossfadable vibrato (emulated?)
> - 5 Shorts - Spiccato, Staccato, Staccatissimo, Sforzando, Marcato
> - Pizzicato, Col Legno, Bartok Snaps,
> - Harmonics
> - Tremolo
> - Measured Tremolo
> - Trills
> - Con Sordino emulation
> 
> Berlin Strings (Main Library)
> - $956, ~129GB
> - Playable legato - 5 types (portamento, slurred, agile, fingered, runs)
> - Recorded runs
> - Reptitions and double / triple strokes
> - Bow attack control
> - Recorded vibrato (three types)
> - 8 Shorts - Spiccatissimo, Spiccato, Spiccato Exposed, Staccato, Staccato Bold, Martele, Portato Short
> - Pizzicato
> - Tremolo (4 types)
> - Trills (4 types)
> - Playable Glissandi
> - Sustains with recorded dynamics / swells
> 
> Pretty big cost difference (along with size difference). CSS has some stuff BST doesn't and vice versa. BST does seem the more featured library overall, but does that add to the programming complexity - and how often do BST owners leverage all of the unique patches?



Man, the playable glissandi in Berlin Strings is really pulling me. I know its just one minor articulation, but it just seems like such a great little tool (as opposed to using pre recorded glissandi and just hoping they line up right, swell at the right time, build up at the right pace...)

Any other string libraries have playable glissandi?


----------



## fgimian

Just a tiny example of 3 string libraries I have playing with mod wheel set at around the middle with no variation.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/h7c9m6cy79dhrvl/AACksQnlRFx4rEM2H5fa725Ma?dl=0

Please excuse the crudeness of the demo, it's just me playing a few chords.

Here I have used the CSS Light Ensemble patch and ensemble patches for both Albions. All samples have a little reverb (ValhallaVintageVerb / Smooth Plate algorithm) and CSS also has some EQ which looks like this:







Some of my own observations:

CSS sounds the widest (from an imaging standpoint)
Spitfire appear to record each section centered while CSS actually record them in their regular pasitions with central mics, so you get more of a feel for where each part of the string section is sitting
Albion II has very little vibrato
CSS has a lot of vibrato! (crossfading between the non-legato and legato helps tame this a bit if you want to)
Albion ONE has a more "perfect" sound while CSS sounds more real imho
Albion ONE's longs are more like marcatos while both Albion II and CSS provide some attack time which makes them a bit more expressive to play
The note releases on Albion II are probably my favourite


----------



## DDK

jeremiahpena said:


> Here's a couple of CSS example uses.
> 
> This first one uses only the close mics, which are really rich. There's an EQ bump at about 12 kHz.
> 
> 
> And here's CSS in context with a big orchestral piece. Some emotional moments, tension, and action. This is using a mix of Close and Main mics, with the emphasis on close mics. All strings are CSS except for two Albion IV patches (0:23, and the gliss at 3:52). Same high EQ boost as the previous track.





Sounds great what were the other libraries used on the full orchestral piece? Do you prefer the close mic over the default mic set up?


----------



## jeremiahpena

eclipse said:


> Sounds great what were the other libraries used on the full orchestral piece? Do you prefer the close mic over the default mic set up?


Staccato woodwinds are all Albion I (not ONE), sustained woodwinds are EW Hollywood Woodwinds. Trumpets and Horns are Jasper Blunk's freebies, Trombones are Strezov's Trombone Ensemble. Harp from 8dio AGE. Piano is Native Instruments The Grandeur. Percussion is Albion I.

The default mic mix is a bit muddy for me. Close -3dB, Main 0, Room -4.5. In the time since writing that piece, I've settled on a mix I like for most orchestral music: Close 0dB, Main 0, Room -6. It's a little brighter and more present. For a very intimate sound the close mics on their own can work very well, though.


----------



## fgimian

Just added a few more samples at that dropbox link which demonstrate con sordino in Albion ONE (which is a real con sordino recording) vs the emulated sordino in CSS. The trick (imho) to getting the best sordino sound in CSS is turning down the vibrato a little.

It's really impressive in my opinion!


----------



## Neifion

fgimian said:


> Just added a few more samples at that dropbox link which demonstrate con sordino in Albion ONE (which is a real con sordino recording) vs the emulated sordino in CSS. The trick (imho) to getting the best sordino sound in CSS is turning down the vibrato a little.
> 
> It's really impressive in my opinion!



Albion ONE con sordino is actually emulated also.


----------



## fgimian

Neifion said:


> Albion ONE con sordino is actually emulated also.



Really? Oh wow!! I honestly had no idea :(


----------



## Rodney Money

jeremiahpena said:


> Staccato woodwinds are all Albion I (not ONE), sustained woodwinds are EW Hollywood Woodwinds. Trumpets and Horns are Jasper Blunk's freebies, Trombones are Strezov's Trombone Ensemble. Harp from 8dio AGE. Piano is Native Instruments The Grandeur. Percussion is Albion I.


And once again, another composer forgot the tuba, but in all seriousness...


----------



## fgimian

Hmm just checked the mapping editor in Albion ONE and there are dedicated CS (con sordino) samples. I also double checked their website and there's no mention of emulated con sordino in Albion ONE.


----------



## Sid Francis

Rodney: I often use a tuba in my more majestic pieces because it makes a faaaaat difference .-)


----------



## markleake

fgimian said:


> Hmm just checked the mapping editor in Albion ONE and there are dedicated CS (con sordino) samples. I also double checked their website and there's no mention of emulated con sordino in Albion ONE.


I think you're getting confused because the information above about the con sodino in Albion One is wrong. They are real con sordino strings, as in they are recorded with mutes on. Refer to:



Only the con sordino legato patch is simulated, in order for the legatos to match the normal legatos (and probably to save on effort/time/cost).

Edit: for clarity.


----------



## fgimian

markleake said:


> I think you're getting confused because the information above about the con sodino in Albion One is wrong. They are real con sordino strings, as in they are recorded with mutes on. Refer to:
> 
> 
> 
> Only the con sordino legato is simulated, in order for the legatos to match the normal legatos (and probably to save on effort/time/cost).
> 
> Edit: for clarity.




Ah, sorry, I misunderstood there  I didn't use the legato in my demo though, it was just regular longs


----------



## markleake

fgimian said:


> Ah, sorry, I misunderstood there  I didn't use the legato in my demo though, it was just regular longs


No worries. It's hard to know all the detailed info about each library's patches. You'd have to be listening carefully to this particular part of the the walkthrough video to pick this up.


----------



## Neifion

Hm, could have sworn I heard Paul or Christian say in one of the videos that the con sordino was simulated. Guess I was mistaken!


----------



## thesteelydane

Neifion said:


> Hm, could have sworn I heard Paul or Christian say in one of the videos that the con sordino was simulated. Guess I was mistaken!


The legato CS is simulated, the longs CS in the main strings patch is real.


----------



## markleake

Neifion said:


> Hm, could have sworn I heard Paul or Christian say in one of the videos that the con sordino was simulated. Guess I was mistaken!


Yes they mentioned it. Did you watch the video I linked to above? That is where they mention it is just the legato patches that have simulated con sordino. It is time indexed to where it is mentioned.


----------



## Hat_Tricky

Any other libraries have playable glissandi like Berlin Strings? What a neat little feature. I'm sure you can frankenstein things together to get a similar effect but Berlin seems to allow a very organic playable glissandi


----------



## Neifion

thesteelydane said:


> The legato CS is simulated, the longs CS in the main strings patch is real.





markleake said:


> Yes they mentioned it. Did you watch the video I linked to above? That is where they mention it is just the legato patches that have simulated con sordino. It is time indexed to where it is mentioned.



Gotcha. Thanks! Don't know how I missed the video.


----------



## fgimian

Has anyone ever requested support for Cinematic products from Alex? I sent an email last week regarding a basic sales question and never got a reply.


----------



## Naoki Ohmori

fgimian said:


> Has anyone ever requested support for Cinematic products from Alex? I sent an email last week regarding a basic sales question and never got a reply.


It's weird. I always get a prompt reply from him.


----------



## fgimian

Naoki Ohmori said:


> It's weird. I always get a prompt reply from him.



Oh that's good news. Do you simply use the Support link on the bottom right of the website to contact him or is there another way that is better?

Cheers
Fotis


----------



## Brendon Williams

jeremiahpena said:


> Here's a couple of CSS example uses.
> 
> This first one uses only the close mics, which are really rich. There's an EQ bump at about 12 kHz.
> 
> 
> And here's CSS in context with a big orchestral piece. Some emotional moments, tension, and action. This is using a mix of Close and Main mics, with the emphasis on close mics. All strings are CSS except for two Albion IV patches (0:23, and the gliss at 3:52). Same high EQ boost as the previous track.




Beautiful work Jeremiah, as usual!


----------



## fgimian

Naoki Ohmori said:


> It's weird. I always get a prompt reply from him.



FYI, Alex replied to me last night, thanks heaps


----------



## mojamusic

I bought CSS this weekend. I love the sound of this library! I have LASS 2, VSL Chamber and Solo, Albion Redux, and Embertone solo strings. I admit CSS is a worthy addition to my collection with a sound unique to itself.

My problem is that it's crashing Kontakt 5 inside Logic Pro 10.2.4 on my iMac. Anyone experience this kind of trouble?


----------



## babylonwaves

mojamusic said:


> My problem is that it's crashing Kontakt 5 inside Logic Pro 10.2.4 on my iMac. Anyone experience this kind of trouble?


no, which kontakt version are you using?


----------



## mojamusic

babylonwaves said:


> no, which kontakt version are you using?



Kontakt version 5.5.2


----------



## dreamnight92

After a little of play with this library I can say my 2 cents! 

The sound is pretty similar the previous library I used, Hollywood strings, but with CSS I get in 5 minutes the same results I got on Hollywood strings with hours and hours of work! 
The legato is beautiful, rich and expressive, I love it! The vibrato is strong and expressive and is perfect while using the strings alone, but you'll need to turn down a little in a full orchestral contest. 
To me, both slow expressive passages and fast energic passages sound good. 

The short are very nice, I like the spiccato and the marcano, but the dynamic layers are a little weird (maybe there is too little dynamic range). 

Harmonics , trills and tremolos are perfect! 

The library also layer well with Hollywood strings (CSS legato + HS sustain mid and close mics that adds brighness). 

The piano is also very good and fit well with the strings, but, as a pianist, there are too little dynamic layers to use it as standalone piano library.

I'm very happy with this library 

Here a quick test, CSS + CSP + a little eq around 12khz and a little bit of plate reverb:


----------



## Jay Duerr

fgimian said:


> Has anyone ever requested support for Cinematic products from Alex? I sent an email last week regarding a basic sales question and never got a reply.


Yes, I just bought CSS 2.0 by accident a couple of weeks ago when I wanted to buy Cinematic Studio Strings instead. I have emailed Alex twice through the support email and have yet to receive a response. I'm getting a bit annoyed since I found out that he had responded quickly to another friend about a tech issue.

BTW I do like CSS 2.0 and am willing to keep it if I can get a discount on the studio strings.


----------



## tack

Jay Duerr said:


> CSS 2.0


I guess you mean CS2 (Cinematic Strings 2).


----------



## Jay Duerr

tack said:


> I guess you mean CS2 (Cinematic Strings 2).


Yes. My apology.


----------



## Alex W

Hi Jay,

I searched our system but couldn't find any support request from you. Not sure what happened there! Anyway I've just emailed you directly, sorry for any inconvenience.

-Alex


----------



## Pianistikboy

Hi ! this is another track showing CSS in an epic orchestral context. No EQ on the strings. Thanks for listening. I hope that you'll like it too.


----------



## markleake

Pianistikboy said:


> Hi ! this is another track showing CSS in an epic orchestral context. No EQ on the strings. Thanks for listening. I hope that you'll like it too.




What a wonderful string melody and orchestration! To me it sounds more romantic/melodic than epic. Fantastic sounding piece, and fantastic sounding strings!


----------



## brett

jeremiahpena said:


> Here's a couple of CSS example uses.
> 
> This first one uses only the close mics, which are really rich. There's an EQ bump at about 12 kHz.
> 
> 
> And here's CSS in context with a big orchestral piece. Some emotional moments, tension, and action. This is using a mix of Close and Main mics, with the emphasis on close mics. All strings are CSS except for two Albion IV patches (0:23, and the gliss at 3:52). Same high EQ boost as the previous track.




Stunning writing J. Fabulous stuff


----------



## galactic orange

Pianistikboy said:


> Hi ! this is another track showing CSS in an epic orchestral context. No EQ on the strings. Thanks for listening. I hope that you'll like it too.



What an elegant and bold piece. I think the strings sound great without EQ. If you don't mind me asking, what did you use for the French horn? It really breathes in that space and fits well with CSS in my opinion, where you'd sometimes expect the mid-range of the horn to get muddied up by the strings or vice versa.


----------



## Pianistikboy

markleake said:


> What a wonderful string melody and orchestration! To me it sounds more romantic/melodic than epic. Fantastic sounding piece, and fantastic sounding strings!





galactic orange said:


> What an elegant and bold piece. I think the strings sound great without EQ. If you don't mind me asking, what did you use for the French horn? It really breathes in that space and fits well with CSS in my opinion, where you'd sometimes expect the mid-range of the horn to get muddied up by the strings or vice versa.


Thank you Marke and galactic orange ! Yes I admit that I have hesitated with the word "epic". Regarding to EQ, sometimes I find they need to be EQed but, for this track, I haven't applied any EQ. The horns are cinesamples Cinebrass. Yes, they react well and fits good with CSS.


----------



## Quodlibet

Pianistikboy said:


> Hi ! this is another track showing CSS in an epic orchestral context. No EQ on the strings. Thanks for listening. I hope that you'll like it too.




This was absolutely wonderful to listen to! Superb work, especially here: 01:07!


----------



## Tatu

Hat_Tricky said:


> Any other libraries have playable glissandi like Berlin Strings?


Haven't used it in years (I only have lite), but if I remember correctly; LASS.


----------



## Pianistikboy

Quodlibet said:


> This was absolutely wonderful to listen to! Superb work, especially here: 01:07!


Thank you so much Quodlibet !! A pleasure to share this here too


----------



## dreamnight92

If there are Reaper users here, this script is very useful to move back midi notes in the piano roll: http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php?p=1721205&postcount=4

How to use it with CSS legato:
1) play the notes
2) quantize the notes
3) move back the legato notes of x milliseconds depending of the legato speed
4) quantize note end only
..and you get all the legato transitions a tempo

You can use the script for shorts as well


----------



## EuropaWill

This thread has been amazing. All the users that have contributed mockup's of the same midi files in Dimension Strings, Berlin, Cinestrings, etc... to give us all an apples to apples comparison of the different libraries have done us all a great service. It has really put things into perspective that only a forum like this could provide. Thank you so much and please continue the library comparison audio mockups. To my ears CSS is a very balanced sounding library that does especially well for lyrical legato lines. I also like the somewhat dark tone and agree with atleast one other user that noted it sounded as if half the ensemble is playing consordino and the other half normal. Berlin sounds better to my ears for the shorts as it seems to capture more energy and liveliness. Dimension Strings also has great shorts and vibrancy whereas it seemed to lag a bit behind on the attempts at lush, lyrical legato lines - at least with regards to the midi-files. I wonder if those examples would have felt lush and emotive sounding if Dimension strings were playing the lyrical lines Sul G or Sul D. Something the other libraries don't offer as far as I can tell. 

I'm very interested to hear how the non-vib to standard vibrato to molto vibrato morphs on these three libraries. Can anyone provide an example to hear how CSS, Berlin and Dimension do with regards to this? I would imagine they would behave differently at the different velocity layers so if that is incorporated into the example that would be extremely helpful as well.


----------



## Vik

Here's another comparison.


----------



## ag75

Vik said:


> Here's another comparison.




Thank you for this. I own CSS and want to buy Spitfire Chamber Strings, but haven't done it yet. After hearing this comparison, which both sound great, I'm not sure I need to pick up the Spitfire library. People that own both libraries, what are your thoughts on each? When do you reach for Spitfire and when do you reach for CSS?


----------



## milesito

i reached for spitfire chamber strings when i want even more detail, or when i'm frustrated with the CSS lag.


----------



## molemac

tack said:


> Definitely. I wrote a small multiscript to try to tame the transition from pp(p?) to niente. You can tweak the CC1_MIN_THRESHOLD value to taste, which controls at what point the script will kick in to smoothen out the volume. Also if you prefer linear scaling, you could refer back to the original source. The code below is quadratic which I feel works better but some might prefer the feel of linear.
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> { This is compiled code. Original source at https://gist.github.com/jtackaberry/cc28f6d974e632c6e0e9c6f1635afb7b }
> on init
> declare const $CC1_MIN_THRESHOLD := 30
> declare %last_cc_in[128] := (127)
> make_persistent(%last_cc_in)
> read_persistent_var(%last_cc_in)
> declare $last_cc11_out := 127
> make_persistent($last_cc11_out)
> read_persistent_var($last_cc11_out)
> declare $value
> end on
> 
> on midi_in
> if ($MIDI_COMMAND=$MIDI_COMMAND_CC and ($MIDI_BYTE_1=1 or ($MIDI_BYTE_1=11)))
> %last_cc_in[$MIDI_BYTE_1] := $MIDI_BYTE_2
> $value := %last_cc_in[1]*%last_cc_in[1]*%last_cc_in[11]/($CC1_MIN_THRESHOLD*$CC1_MIN_THRESHOLD)
> if ($value>%last_cc_in[11])
> $value := %last_cc_in[11]
> end if
> if ($MIDI_BYTE_1=11)
> ignore_midi
> end if
> if ($value # $last_cc11_out)
> set_midi($MIDI_CHANNEL,$MIDI_COMMAND_CC,11,$value)
> $last_cc11_out := $value
> end if
> end if
> end on


Hi ,
Can you please explain how to use this script . Is it a logic script and if so how do you import it and use it ?not to mention the linear vs quadratic which is way over my head too thanks


----------



## tack

molemac said:


> Can you please explain how to use this script


It's a Kontakt multiscript. In your Kontakt instance that hosts CSS, click the script icon (looks like a curled piece of parchment) on the toolbar beside AUX, then click the Edit button on the panel that opens up, and paste the script into the text pane that opens up. After pasting, click Apply. You can click the script icon again to close it, but the script is now loaded.

Don't worry about the scaling function stuff. It's just if you don't like the way it responds, it can be tweaked to scale slightly differently. I found the script as it is worked best for me.


----------



## molemac

tack said:


> It's a Kontakt multiscript. In your Kontakt instance that hosts CSS, click the script icon (looks like a curled piece of parchment) on the toolbar beside AUX, then click the Edit button on the panel that opens up, and paste the script into the text pane that opens up. After pasting, click Apply. You can click the script icon again to close it, but the script is now loaded.
> 
> Don't worry about the scaling function stuff. It's just if you don't like the way it responds, it can be tweaked to scale slightly differently. I found the script as it is worked best for me.


thanks , thats great


----------



## prodigalson

ag75 said:


> After hearing this comparison, which both sound great, I'm not sure I need to pick up the Spitfire library. People that own both libraries, what are your thoughts on each? When do you reach for Spitfire and when do you reach for CSS?



The variety of articulations in SCS in addition to the absolutely phenomenal sound mean that I reach for it for virtually everything by default. If you want anything that sounds a little smaller and more detailed and chamber-like, it's incredible. If you want delicate, evocative, interesting or anything that sounds less than a full string section then SCS is the way to go. The newer price point means that its even more of a no-brainer. SCS is my go-to string library. 

If you want great, playable legatos that sound like butter out of the box, then CSS is great. And honestly because CSS is quite a bit drier than SCS then you have very compatible libraries. 

Im glad I have both as they can do different things but also can do great things together


----------



## galactic orange

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> I used for brass a mix of Hollywood Brass (French Horns, Trumpets, Trombones, Tuba), MA 1(Tubas), Strezov Sampling (French Horns)


I recently picked up CSS and after listening to your track I'd like your take on the Strezov Horns. Are they versatile as far as dynamic range? The demos sound very nice, especially the legato. If you've combined them with HWB then they must add something. I'd like to know what limitations these horns have as I'm considering purchasing either just the horns or the Strezov Brass Bundle.


----------



## Pianistikboy

Hi CSS addicts ! Here is a composition for orchestra, again featuring the beautiful CSS string library. I can't do without it now when I need strings on my music ! Thank you Alex Wallbank !! .


----------



## JohnBMears

Pianistikboy said:


> Hi CSS addicts ! Here is a composition for orchestra, again featuring the beautiful CSS string library. I can't do without it now when I need strings on my music ! Thank you Alex Wallbank !! .




Awesome Stuff! What Brass is that? Super excited about the rest of the Cinematic Studio Series!


----------



## jononotbono

Vik said:


> Here's another comparison.



Just bought SCS and will get CSS as well. Both wonderful and different!


----------



## Pianistikboy

JohnBMears said:


> Awesome Stuff! What Brass is that? Super excited about the rest of the Cinematic Studio Series!


Thank you John, for the brass : only Cinebrass. And yes, can't wait too for the rest of CS series !!


----------



## Thomas A Booker

Does the ensemble patch allow mixing of the different mic positions? I see you can mix the levels of each instrument in the ensemble, but can you blend between Close/Main/Room, as with the individual patches?


----------



## Baron Greuner

Anyone know if the vibrato update has happened yet on CSS?


----------



## muk

Baron Greuner said:


> Anyone know if the vibrato update has happened yet on CSS?



It has:
http://www.cinematicstudioseries.com/updates.html

I haven't tested it yet, but the changelog reads 'Non-vib bug where notes would drop out / not trigger correctly: fixed'.


----------



## Pianistikboy

Thomas A Booker said:


> Does the ensemble patch allow mixing of the different mic positions? I see you can mix the levels of each instrument in the ensemble, but can you blend between Close/Main/Room, as with the individual patches?


Apparently, from that I can see of the ensemble view pannel, you can't blend between Close/Main/Room, as with the individual patches. For the vibrato update, I don't know.


----------



## AllanH

It was, assuming its the non-vibrato bug you're referring to:
http://www.cinematicstudioseries.com/updates.html


----------



## Thomas A Booker

Pianistikboy said:


> Apparently, from that I can see of the ensemble view pannel, you can't blend between Close/Main/Room, as with the individual patches. For the vibrato update, I don't know.


Cheers for the info. I thought so, but hoped ensemble mic blending might be buried under the hood somewhere.


----------



## Jaap

NoamL said:


> I am late to this thread, but... holy crap...
> 
> This is a minority opinion on VIC... but for me, *LASS 2* is simply It when it comes to string libs. I say this as a cellist... No doubt there are aspects of the lib that are a pain to work with but its legato is seamless and expressive, the dynamic range is unbelievable, and the shorts/fast legato are easily more convincing than similar-sized HWS and Mural, while standing up very well to the smaller detailed sound of Sable & BST. In addition, LASS is the only library on the market with REAL divisi + REAL sordino. The only downfall of the library is its finicky tone which isn't 100% fixed by any of the onboard Stage/Color algorithms. That is a small price to pay for a library that sounds real and familiar to my experience playing in orchestras. I own EWQLSO, Mural, Albion, and have had opportunities to monkey around with HWS, Cinestrings, MA, BST and a few other libs working for/with other composers, and I've _never_ felt like any other lib was really giving LASS a run for its money as my main template for strings.
> 
> This library changes that. The tone and mix balance you get out of the box with CSS is *simply astonishing.* It nails the *rich,* *delicious* cinematic tone while not being overly "polished" to the point of inflexibility (my main beef with HWS, which otherwise has a riveting cinematic tone).
> 
> The expressiveness of the legato is easily on a par with LASS. I remember seeing @Blakus's string comparison video years ago and thinking "Yep LASS wins" (especially when HWS and BST struggled quite a bit with the fast First Vlns turn towards the end); CSS is as good as LASS here.
> 
> The sordinos aren't real but the sound is passable.
> 
> What truly made up my mind is when I imported Christof's "The Robber" into LASS this afternoon. This piece is supposed to be in LASS's wheelhouse. Even LASS's critics acknowledge that its spiccatos are great. I cannot make the piece sound as wonderful as Christof's original (even though the dynamic range is clearly narrower in CSS than LASS).
> 
> Finally... those measured tremolos.. *no* other library that I've heard has sampled measured trems as well as this library.
> 
> The one thing that's missing for me in CSS is a bit of "first chair sound" and human imperfection. I planned to mix CSS with the first chairs from LASS but then I saw there is a Solo Strings library already in the works. Amazing!
> 
> Saving up for this lib starting RIGHTNOW
> 
> *P.S. *The "in-the-same-room-ness" of the sections is really quite convincing even compared to every other library that advertises this feature. Not only are the sections in the right places but it seems to me that the sound "glues" together better than LASS, HWS and BST. Clearly there is some top tier mixing talent working behind the scenes on this library. I could not be more excited for the solo strings, woodwind and brass libraries to follow.



And I am extremely late to this party  but just came across this thread and had really really a good itme to read through the first 24 pages! (still 22 to go haha), but this comment made me decide to go for it. I am also a LASS fanboy since day 1 and it's still my go to library allthough I have also have Mural and HS Diamond, but damn, this sound what I heard in all those great demos and pieces made me really doubt it. I didn't know I needed another library, but now I do


----------



## Batrawi

I personally think that for quality/price value CSS is simply unbeatable. I can't imagine how glorious it would be if it runs in an engine like CAPSULE! Hope one day they consider such concept even though it seems unlikely. 
On the other hand, Portamento & fast legato transitions both need to be more accentuated (at least for my taste) and I think this is something that still can be improved.. Other than that everything else about this library is close to perfect.


----------



## dog1978

Batrawi said:


> Guys, Is it possible to assign these CC values to my midi keyboard (the only midi controller I have)?
> I simply want to have a keyswitch for each articulation/sub-articulation in CSS on my keyboard...(their velocity-sensitive keyswitches is not my thing )




I've created a workflow for controlling con surdino with a fader:

english:


german:


----------



## dog1978

I've created a video review:

english:


german:


----------



## Consona

Sorry for asking something that has been asked ad nauseam already I'm sure, but I'm torn between buying CCS and CS2 and I'd really appreciate your insight, guys.

Based on walkthrough videos I love CCS's legato, harmonics and articulations in general. But to me, it feels like tone of CS2 is more vivid (but maybe with some reverb and eq/exciter they could some rather identical?), the dynamic range wider, there's better vibrato control and it handles faster passages and runs much better than CSS (maybe there'll be a run mode in the future?). I'm now listening to this

and to me, the run mode and live mode fast passages sound really good, much better than demos of CSS runs I've heard so far.

Thx for sharing your thoughts!


----------



## BenG

I do nt own both (only CS2) however, I believe the main different between the two would be the overall tone/sound. 

CS2 (which is a great library btw) focuses on a more sweeping 'Hollywood' sound which is great for larger film scores. (12-8-7-7-6)

CSS on the other hand, is much more intimate which works great for more traditional string writing. (10-7-7-6-5)

Both are fantastic libraries and it comes down to the type of music you write and which best fits your workflow.


----------



## Batrawi

I own CSS only, so to complement BenG's opinion I can assure you that you will have NO regrets getting CSS except maybe for fast passages which -personally- is still not my favorite. Otherwise I believe CSS have the upper hand over CS2 in everything else (again according to my personal knowledge/demo comparisons):
+rebowing which is indispensable for more realistic phrases
+more articulations in general
+(since much dryer) more flexibility to adjust the sound as you wish.
+better legato system/sound (if not the best in the market so far)


----------



## kurtvanzo

I own both and really like them both. If you eventually plan to buy both then one thing to consider is the discount- if you buy CS2 then he gives you a big discount on CSS (30% off -from $399 to $279) which Alex mentioned doesn't have an expiration date. So getting CS2 first would save yon some serious $$ on CSS in the future. You can write Alex first to be sure, he's a great guy who normally responds pretty quickly (from Austrailia).


----------



## byzantium

I have both CS2 and CSS. I've used CS2 a lot and really like it, but have only messed around with CSS as of yet. Great sound and legato from CSS but I struggle with the built-in delay especially on shorts, I find it disconcerting to play CSS shorts and often have to give up because the aural feedback is so delayed (in combination with DAW buffer), I get confused.


----------



## kurtvanzo

byzantium said:


> I have both CS2 and CSS. I've used CS2 a lot and really like it, but have only messed around with CSS as of yet. Great sound and legato from CSS but I struggle with the built-in delay especially on shorts, I find it disconcerting to play CSS shorts and often have to give up because the aural feedback is so delayed (in combination with DAW buffer), I get confused.


You may want to check your buffer size in your DAW (too high?). The CSS legatos have a delay (not the first note, but legato transition to 2nd, 3rd, etc) but not on shorts. Also, have you downloaded the latest update? Alex sent out an update a month or two ago. Could be a glitch in the version your using. Check your emails for the 1.1 update or contact Alex.


----------



## tonaliszt

Are there any fast legato/runs demos someone can point me to?


----------



## byzantium

Hey thanks very much kurtvanzo. I had to check but yes I have the 1.1. update. I have a mid-2001 i5 iMac and tend to need to use a 256 sample buffer to minimise the cpu clicks, so that's probably not helping, but I tried it there again just now and I still experience quite a delay on CCS shorts (e.g. staccs) that I don't experience sy on pianos, guitars etc, using the same buffer setting. So I just looked up the CSS manual and it states there is a delay of 60ms on shorts (to the rhythmic peak).


----------



## Zhao Shen

Consona said:


> Sorry for asking something that has been asked ad nauseam already I'm sure, but I'm torn between buying CCS and CS2 and I'd really appreciate your insight, guys.
> 
> Based on walkthrough videos I love CCS's legato, harmonics and articulations in general. But to me, it feels like tone of CS2 is more vivid (but maybe with some reverb and eq/exciter they could some rather identical?), the dynamic range wider, there's better vibrato control and it handles faster passages and runs much better than CSS (maybe there'll be a run mode in the future?). I'm now listening to this
> 
> and to me, the run mode and live mode fast passages sound really good, much better than demos of CSS runs I've heard so far.
> 
> Thx for sharing your thoughts!



CSS has reduced my use of CS2 to almost exclusively the Full Ensemble patch. As someone who loves CS2 and used it as my workhorse string library for many years, I can assure you that CSS is superior is just about every way imaginable. Also, CS2 is very wet, CSS is much less so. You can always make samples wetter, but not drier.


----------



## kurtvanzo

n.h said:


> Are there any fast legato/runs demos someone can point me to?



6 minutes into this legato video, Alex suggests using marcato for fast legato lines and even runs. It has the fast legato built in yet velocity can be used to accent notes. With or without the overlay the runs sound good.


----------



## kurtvanzo

byzantium said:


> Hey thanks very much kurtvanzo. I had to check but yes I have the 1.1. update. I have a mid-2001 i5 iMac and tend to need to use a 256 sample buffer to minimise the cpu clicks, so that's probably not helping, but I tried it there again just now and I still experience quite a delay on CCS shorts (e.g. staccs) that I don't experience sy on pianos, guitars etc, using the same buffer setting. So I just looked up the CSS manual and it states there is a delay of 60ms on shorts (to the rhythmic peak).



This is strange as I've never noticed, and usually anything over 30ms is annoying on fast notes, but I'll try a test with metronome and a few libraries with CSS...


Zhao Shen said:


> CSS has reduced my use of CS2 to almost exclusively the Full Ensemble patch. As someone who loves CS2 and used it as my workhorse string library for many years, I can assure you that CSS is superior is just about every way imaginable. Also, CS2 is very wet, CSS is much less so. You can always make samples wetter, but not drier.



I agree. Ironically the CS2 ensemble patches don't come with close mics, only section mixes, but the individual section patches do have a close mic that is drier and can be mixed with other libraries/reverbs. I like the sweeter sound of CSS, but for a bigger presence CS2 is a great layer to add.


----------



## kurtvanzo

byzantium said:


> Hey thanks very much kurtvanzo. I had to check but yes I have the 1.1. update. I have a mid-2001 i5 iMac and tend to need to use a 256 sample buffer to minimise the cpu clicks, so that's probably not helping, but I tried it there again just now and I still experience quite a delay on CCS shorts (e.g. staccs) that I don't experience sy on pianos, guitars etc, using the same buffer setting. So I just looked up the CSS manual and it states there is a delay of 60ms on shorts (to the rhythmic peak).



You are right Byz, after recording the different shorts I can see the 60ms delay (some are even a little more) I've highlighted exactly 60ms here (grey lines are 10ms incriments) to show the gap ...






Seems Marcato and Sfz need the ramptime but Spiccato, Staccatisimo, and Staccato could be trimmed by 30ms (zoomed in and highlighted below). Hopefully Alex will add an offset knob for each articulation someday soon (perhaps on an advanced edit page?)- could use a waveform display with that too.


----------



## Consona

Thx for responses!



kurtvanzo said:


> I own both and really like them both. If you eventually plan to buy both then one thing to consider is the discount- if you buy CS2 then he gives you a big discount on CSS (30% off -from $399 to $279) which Alex mentioned doesn't have an expiration date. So getting CS2 first would save yon some serious $$ on CSS in the future. You can write Alex first to be sure, he's a great guy who normally responds pretty quickly (from Austrailia).


Wow, I didn't know that. I've tried to find anything about it but there's nothing on CS2 or CSS product pages. Where did you get the information from? Man, buying CS2 for 299 and CSS for 279 later would be fantastic, I think I'd take them both then.


----------



## HirushanDM

@Alex W is there any chance you will be running a promotion for CSS for Black Friday or maybe even Christmas??? Dying to get this but i honestly don't have enough money to do so. $399 is pretty good as it is but when you convert it...it's a lot of cash from where i come from due to exchange rates.....

Anyhow even if you guys don't run a promotion, I'll wait for whenever it does and eventually buy it for sure cause man those strings are just amazing man...Kudos on that.

Cheers.


----------



## byzantium

Excellent analysis kurtvanzo. The ability to adjust the sample offset for recording / play-in would make these shorts a lot more playable. After playing-in, one could return to the original sample and shift all the midi forward to reintroduce the realism. I would imagine an adjustable sample offset would be a relatively minor software change. Hopefully the good Alex is listening.... (The delay does seem to bother a lot of people, would be good PR/customer service, could increase sales etc).


----------



## Consona

Does anybody know how long will the CS2 sale last?


----------



## Daniel F.

I feel like I have to say something here because a lot of people have some opinions about CSS that I don’t agree with. I CSS is a real great library it’s probably even the best string library on the market in my opinion. And this is for the simple reason that it’s a very, very polished and well thought out library with a great sound.

There’s a lot to like with it but one of the main features that I really like is the delay and this is where I feel like I need to say something because I can’t understand the people who complain that the legato delay is interrupting workflow. The legato in CSS is also some of the best and to achieve this you need the legato delay. I know a couple of other companies have less delay in their legatos but it’s also not as good and I find it to be very inconsistent most of the time since they are trying to minimize the delay and don’t take into account that all transitions are not equal. Basically they have not measured the legato transition which makes it so that they all have different delays and that kills it for me. The way that CSS does it is great and to me is worth so much.

All I have to do is play the passage in normally (even with a normal sustain patch works if I don’t want any delay at all) and then since I know the delay is 200ms I know exactly how much I need to move the start points to get the legato to line up and then I’m done. It’s great.

I find with a lot of other libraries I’ve been using I have to figure this out by ear because the developers try and make the transitions as small as possible and sometimes the players take longer to get to some note which makes this very cumbersome to have to go through all the legato notes and move them by ear to get them to line up.

I hope Alex and his team will stick to what they have envisioned and not get turned off by these kinds of comments because it’s usually the people who dislike something that get heard the most while the people who love the product and have nothing to contribute stay quiet and just enjoy what they have. It’s good to get both sides.

But the legato offset is a good idea, like the way spitfire does it. Then you can have the best of both worlds.


----------



## Jediwario1

Daniel F. said:


> All I have to do is play the passage in normally (even with a normal sustain patch works if I don’t want any delay at all) and then since I know the delay is 200ms I know exactly how much I need to move the start points to get the legato to line up and then I’m done. It’s great.



The problem is all the different types of legato have different lengths (Fast-100ms, Medium-250, Slow-333ms). So if you have a part that uses the different speeds you'll have to tweak each individual note for it to be in time.

What a lot of us are asking is that all the legatos have the same latency (333ms for example) that way all we have to do is adjust the track delay compensation (I'm using Cubase) and all the notes will be in time.


----------



## NoamL

I agree Daniel F, I hope CSB and CSWW keeps the same sample pre-roll approach.


----------



## Ashermusic

Jediwario1 said:


> What a lot of us are asking is that all the legatos have the same latency (333ms for example) that way all we have to do is adjust the track delay compensation (I'm using Cubase) and all the notes will be in time.




Yes, i would like that as well.


----------



## Mike Fox

Daniel F. said:


> I feel like I have to say something here because a lot of people have some opinions about CSS that I don’t agree with. I CSS is a real great library it’s probably even the best string library on the market in my opinion. And this is for the simple reason that it’s a very, very polished and well thought out library with a great sound.
> 
> There’s a lot to like with it but one of the main features that I really like is the delay and this is where I feel like I need to say something because I can’t understand the people who complain that the legato delay is interrupting workflow. The legato in CSS is also some of the best and to achieve this you need the legato delay. I know a couple of other companies have less delay in their legatos but it’s also not as good and I find it to be very inconsistent most of the time since they are trying to minimize the delay and don’t take into account that all transitions are not equal. Basically they have not measured the legato transition which makes it so that they all have different delays and that kills it for me. The way that CSS does it is great and to me is worth so much.
> 
> All I have to do is play the passage in normally (even with a normal sustain patch works if I don’t want any delay at all) and then since I know the delay is 200ms I know exactly how much I need to move the start points to get the legato to line up and then I’m done. It’s great.
> 
> I find with a lot of other libraries I’ve been using I have to figure this out by ear because the developers try and make the transitions as small as possible and sometimes the players take longer to get to some note which makes this very cumbersome to have to go through all the legato notes and move them by ear to get them to line up.
> 
> I hope Alex and his team will stick to what they have envisioned and not get turned off by these kinds of comments because it’s usually the people who dislike something that get heard the most while the people who love the product and have nothing to contribute stay quiet and just enjoy what they have. It’s good to get both sides.
> 
> But the legato offset is a good idea, like the way spitfire does it. Then you can have the best of both worlds.


People complain about the same delay problem with Tina Guo's legato. I don't really understand the complaints either.


----------



## dreamnight92

Delay in true legato is the rule, deal with it. 

CSS has the "classic patch" that have standard and constant delay (150 ms), that's quick enough to play realtime, and it is constant so you can set a negative delay to your midi track if you prefer it. 
Then, after your composition is done, you can switch to advanced patches and edit the midi note per note to get the best performance, it takes a little of time but really worth it.


----------



## jacobthestupendous

Ashermusic said:


> Yes, i would like that as well.


Does it not accomplish this to simply set all midi notes to the same velocity? This is easy to accomplish in Logic and hopefully in Cubase too (though I don't know). 

So three step process:
1) perform in notes and cc dynamics in a known-length mode (classic legato or just sustain) 
2) set all velocities to constant and nudge back accordingly 
3) change to fancy legato mode


----------



## Vastman

Regarding the discount coupon for CSS, if you buy CS2 on sale... I did email alex and he replied: 

Nov 12, 11:41 AEDT

Hi Dana,

There's no pressure, the CSS discount lasts forever.  

This is ideal for me as it leaves me with a bit more money to take advantage of some of the 8dio offerings and CS2 is quite wonderful sounding in it's own right! very happy this evening...


----------



## Ashermusic

jacobthestupendous said:


> Does it not accomplish this to simply set all midi notes to the same velocity? This is easy to accomplish in Logic and hopefully in Cubase too (though I don't know).
> 
> So three step process:
> 1) perform in notes and cc dynamics in a known-length mode (classic legato or just sustain)
> 2) set all velocities to constant and nudge back accordingly
> 3) change to fancy legato mode




Absolutely, it would be nice however just to know that the same ms adjustment worked for all.


----------



## paoling

The delay issue is common in many libraries and I think that in CSS it's handled quite fine (to me one of the best string library available). A "slow legato" kind patch is by definition a transition to a certain note in a larger amount of time, so the delay is just due the transition itself. A real performer will naturally anticipate the transition to get on the next note in the right time.

The variable kind of delay (in the same kind of legato) is usually done to prevent the skipping of the reaching note when playing faster than the transition time.

(best thing anyway is to provide the user a tweak for legato speed, I'm not a incredibly fast performer, but users who fly on the keyboard would be thankful  )


----------



## kurtvanzo

Consona said:


> Thx for responses!
> 
> 
> Wow, I didn't know that. I've tried to find anything about it but there's nothing on CS2 or CSS product pages. Where did you get the information from? Man, buying CS2 for 299 and CSS for 279 later would be fantastic, I think I'd take them both then.



The offer was sent out by email to all CS2 owners, and he mentions there is no expiration. To be sure you can email Alex and ask if the discount applies to new CS2 customers. He's a great guy.


----------



## Daniel F.

Jediwario1 said:


> The problem is all the different types of legato have different lengths (Fast-100ms, Medium-250, Slow-333ms). So if you have a part that uses the different speeds you'll have to tweak each individual note for it to be in time.
> 
> What a lot of us are asking is that all the legatos have the same latency (333ms for example) that way all we have to do is adjust the track delay compensation (I'm using Cubase) and all the notes will be in time.



Yeah I understood that and that's why I said that sample offset would be a good idea but might also be more work than it's worth. If you're using Cubase it's really easy. Just make one logic command for each type of legato and it should be solved.

I don't to see what the problem is. If you don't like the different legato speeds don't use them just set all of your note velocity to 127 and all the transitions will be 100ms right?


----------



## Quodlibet

Daniel F. said:


> Just make one logic command for each type of legato and it should be solved.



This is exactly what I do. Easy and effective, no need to adjust each note or the track delay!


----------



## midiman

Ashermusic said:


> Yes, i would like that as well.



How could you have all legatos with the same latency?? The whole point is that they have different speeds, thus they have different latencies. I do not have any problem with the lateness. I just create a Macro on Cubase where I select the notes and pull them all back by 333ms.


----------



## cadenzajon

midiman said:


> How could you have all legatos with the same latency?? The whole point is that they have different speeds, thus they have different latencies. I do not have any problem with the lateness. I just create a Macro on Cubase where I select the notes and pull them all back by 333ms.


By padding the quicker legato transitions to create a fixed latency time regardless of which legato is in use. I agree that this would be nice; I could just set a fixed ms offset on my string legato tracks and not have to think about it any more. (However, this setting would probably make CSS more tricky to play live, especially with the resultant laggy effect on fast runs.)


----------



## Ashermusic

Daniel F. said:


> Yeah I understood that and that's why I said that sample offset would be a good idea but might also be more work than it's worth. If you're using Cubase it's really easy. Just make one logic command for each type of legato and it should be solved.
> 
> I don't to see what the problem is. If you don't like the different legato speeds don't use them just set all of your note velocity to 127 and all the transitions will be 100ms right?



Never said it was a deal breaker, never said I wouldn't still use it. _Love_ this library. But it would be nice if there was 1 ms setting for each type of legato and shorts btw (and no, I don't think there is) that worked across the board.


----------



## Zhao Shen

Man... I need some sort of system that emails me the next time Alex posts here. I think I've lost the will to purchase libraries until Cinematic Studio Brass comes out...


----------



## Jediwario1

Daniel F. said:


> If you're using Cubase it's really easy. Just make one logic command for each type of legato and it should be solved.



Actually I do use Cubase , could you take a screenshot of how you would setup the Logical Editor (I haven't had much experience with it). Thanks


----------



## Consona

Just bought CS2! Cannot wait to play it!

It's really nice to know I'll have this sweet discount on CSS whenever I decide to buy it.


----------



## Ashermusic

Consona said:


> Just bought CS2! Cannot wait to play it!
> 
> It's really nice to know I'll have this sweet discount on CSS whenever I decide to buy it.



Two terrific libraries. Dirty little secret: even when I worked for EW, for clients who wanted a lush string sound but did not need all the flexibility of Hollywood Strings and all the voluminous articulation choices, or did not have systems that were powerful enough for it, I recommended CS 2 on the down low, and they all were really happy with it.


----------



## Alatar

Consona said:


> Just bought CS2! Cannot wait to play it!
> 
> It's really nice to know I'll have this sweet discount on CSS whenever I decide to buy it.



How much discount do they offer?
I also own CS2 and like what I hear in CSS.


----------



## Alatar

And I have a second question:
In which way is CSS different from CS2 and where/how does it complement CS2?


----------



## midiman

Gabriel Oliveira said:


> Can you share? Would love to see how it works


Hi Gabriel, You need to first use the logical editor to create a *process logical preset* to shift all selected notes by altering the start time by 333ms (name it minus 333ms for instance). Once you create that process, that preset name will show up on the key commands list (inside the key commands folder "*process logical preset"*, and all you have to do is assign a key command to it. You could create one process logical preset for each speed of legato. I only created the 333ms as it is the one I use the most. So in fact it is not even a macro, it is just a shortcut to a process logical preset. Let me know if you need any further assistance on this. It is very fast and easy to do, and really streamlines the process of sequencing on CSS. It is worth it, because CSS is probably the best string library out there, in terms of realism and quality of sound and expression.
Hope this helps.


----------



## midiman

Alatar said:


> And I have a second question:
> In which way is CSS different from CS2 and where/how does it complement CS2?


I can only say that CSS is on a different level than CS2. I have both. CSS is an absolute NEXT GEN library. One of the best string libraries in years, and one which will be hard to beat in quality, and usability. It has become my no.1 string library, and I have most of them.


----------



## Consona

Ashermusic said:


> Two terrific libraries. Dirty little secret: even when I worked for EW, for clients who wanted a lush string sound but did not need all the flexibility of Hollywood Strings and all the voluminous articulation choices, or did not have systems that were powerful enough for it, I recommended CS 2 on the down low, and they all were really happy with it.


Yea, I finally got to play with CS2 and it sounds great! It has that big orchestra sound from the era of romantism just ready to perform some Wagner or Batman Begins.  Really happy with it too.


----------



## Vastman

Those of you who have been using CS2 and have bought CSS... do you see any reason to have both libraries (given this is $578 with discounts) vs just paying full price for CSS. Tempted to do a "Consona" and wait for CSS, given that Alex says the coupon is good forever but part of me feels I really don't need both libs and I should just get CSS... even though I end up loosing out on both "deals"... then again, I could live with CS2 for a long time and have more money for daBrass...


----------



## JanR

Thinking about getting this library. Can anyone tell me how well the measured trem patch plays live on the keyboard? Does it require lots of adjusting the key velocities afterwards to sound good? And how many round Robins is there in this patch? Maybe there is a video or audio out there of Someone playing around with the meas trems patch on the keyboard? Would love to know. 
I was impressed with the demo on their site of the patch but want to know how it plays live on the keyboard.

Spitfire and Eastwest meas trems are controlled with Mod wheel or expression, and difficult to make a lot of those accents in the phrase. I know adagio has a spic repetition patch based on key velocity, but it isnt time synced. So this library would fill this gap, but just wondering what your experiences are with it.


----------



## Mike Fox

Does anyone know how CSS compares to Cinestrings?


----------



## JohnBMears

mikefox789 said:


> Does anyone know how CSS compares to Cinestrings?



In which way are you wondering?
CSS is smaller in sections sizes (sort of like Berlin-sized) CineStrings is Mahler-sized (like Hollywood Strings)

Both are on a sound stage but I find CSS to be less noisy, more controlled room than the Sony Stage (which is wetter)

Legato ability cannot be compared- CSS has WAYYY more abilities in this regard for realism. CineStrings has one version of non portamento, very direct legato (it's awesome) but it is all there is.

Tone-wise, I never cared for CineStrings longs, CSS is so lush and awesome. The shorts of CineStrings are amazingly accurate and consistent. So for epic stuff it works well.


----------



## Mike Fox

JohnBMears said:


> In which way are you wondering?
> CSS is smaller in sections sizes (sort of like Berlin-sized) CineStrings is Mahler-sized (like Hollywood Strings)
> 
> Both are on a sound stage but I find CSS to be less noisy, more controlled room than the Sony Stage (which is wetter)
> 
> Legato ability cannot be compared- CSS has WAYYY more abilities in this regard for realism. CineStrings has one version of non portamento, very direct legato (it's awesome) but it is all there is.
> 
> Tone-wise, I never cared for CineStrings longs, CSS is so lush and awesome. The shorts of CineStrings are amazingly accurate and consistent. So for epic stuff it works well.


That answers my question. Thank you!


----------



## bc3po

Has there ever been any news about the nonvibrato bug fix? It is driving me nuts.


----------



## Rodney Money

mikefox789 said:


> Does anyone know how CSS compares to Cinestrings?


I have both. Concerning "emotion," CSS inspires me where CS leaves me feeing neutral. I remember the first time I loaded up my brand new CineStrings waiting for the legato cello to load. After it loaded, I played a line, looked at my friend and said, "That's it?" Then the first time I loaded up CSS legato cello it was so inspiring I heard half a dozen projects in my head that I could not wait to start since it was pure inspiration.


----------



## Saxer

CSS has a real sentimental sound and heavy vibrato. There's a non vibrato layer but nothing in between. If you need that it's absolutely great. Different story if you want something else. So it's not bad to have CS2 as an alternative. Or Spitfire. Or Cinestrings...


----------



## Saxer

bc3po said:


> Has there ever been any news about the nonvibrato bug fix? It is driving me nuts.


Fixed several weeks ago. http://www.cinematicstudioseries.com/updates.html


----------



## Vastman

Vastman said:


> Those of you who have been using CS2 and have bought CSS... do you see any reason to have both libraries (given this is $578 with discounts) vs just paying full price for CSS. Tempted to do a "Consona" and wait for CSS, given that Alex says the coupon is good forever but part of me feels I really don't need both libs and I should just get CSS... even though I end up loosing out on both "deals"... then again, I could live with CS2 for a long time and have more money for daBrass...



Essentially, does CS2 still add something significant, emotion/sound wise, to CSS in a non-orchestration songwriting environment? If so, for 178 additional bucks, I'll get both; if they work well together, I'll get both... if CSS gives me 95% of what I need, I'll forgo the "perceived" deal and just pay full price for CSS. I've fallen in love with Alex's creations, have honestly listened to/watched every soundcloud/youtube... but I don't know how to answer this and I reach out to you folks...

FWIW, I just picked up a couple offering from Adagio (strings/bass) & Agitato (Sordino/Arpeggio) purely for their emotion... I can spend money now but at year's end I'm done as it's retirement time and full time songwriting, as we've just Trumped the environment and it's all my hands on deck!

So, CSS or both? would love to abdicate personal responsibility!
I have a hard time with this... I tend to just get things, regardless of other bills... as I dislike money and love music... so, outside thoughts are really appreciated, ESPECIALLY those who have both CSS & CS2... do u still use both?

Thanks, Saxer for some thoughts...


----------



## Consona

Vastman said:


> I tend to just get things, regardless of other bills... as I dislike money and love music...


 I know this very well. Once I have some more money than I need for food, etc., I buy some sample library. 

Regarding CCS or CS2, as I don't own CSS I can only say after listening to CSS demos and videos and playing with CS2, the main difference to me is the sound. CS2 samples have more air and feel more spacious to me. But maybe with EQ and reverb you could accomplish that with CSS too, and I like CS2 fast passages better.


----------



## Hat_Tricky

Apologies in advance, but what are some good quick ways to deal with the latency the CSS has within Reaper? I'm still pretty new and learning, and I also like to play in as much as possible, but I'm finding that even the spicattos I can't play accurately enough with the delay. I understand the delay on each different legato type and the shorts are of varying lengths, but able to be dealt with by putting ms delay on that track, or sliding over the notes.

What seem to be the best ways of quickly editing to get the notes in the "correct" places haha?

Thanks!


----------



## Voider

Will CSS have a black friday sale?


----------



## Daniel F.

I don't think you will get the answer to that because I don't think many know except Alex and his team. And most don't announce sales just like that here. And that question have been asked multiple times already in this thread I alone iirc. And they've not answered anyone yet. It's also a rather new library so don't except a huge discount if they do do a sale.


----------



## midiman

In case anyone is interested here is a way to streamline working with CSS and the latency of the diferent types of legato:
Selected a group of notes that you want to have quantised. Go to midi menu, then select the logical editor. Then change the values as you see in my snapshot. Then Apply. then save as a preset and give it a name you can recognize (still in the logical editor window). Once you save it as a preset, it will show in on the key commands, inside the folder *process logical preset, *then you select and assign a key command to it. So in the future when you selected notes on the key editor, you just need to press the key command you assigned and the selected notes will move back 333ms. Repeat the process for the different legato speeds and assign a different key command for each.This speeds up a lot the workflow with CSS, as you can now quantize and then quickly move the notes where they need to be in order to be on time. Hope this helps.


----------



## BNRSound

midiman said:


> In case anyone is interested here is a way to streamline working with CSS and the latency of the diferent types of legato:
> Selected a group of notes that have been quarantined. Go to midi menu, then logical editor. Then change the values as you see in my snapshot. Then Apply. then save as a preset (still in the logical editor window). Once you save it as a preset, it will show in on the key commands, inside the folder *process logical preset, *then you select and assign a key command to it. So in the future when you selected notes on the key editor, you just need to press the key command you assigned and the selected notes will move back 333ms. Repeat the process for the different legato speeds and assign a different key command for each.This speeds up a lot the workflow with CSS, as you can now quantize and then quickly move the notes where they need to be in order to be on time. Hope this helps.



I've set up a preset for 100, 250, and 333ms each, but when applying a preset it applies to all notes instead of the ones selected. Is there a way to have this only apply to selected notes?

EDIT: Nevermind - I wasn't using the correct logical preset window. Got it all sorted now. Works perfectly. This is a really easy solution to those unhappy with the legato delay.


----------



## JohnBMears

Can this be done with LOGIC PRO X?


----------



## kavinsky

the midi still needs adjustments because the legato transitions are not strictly 100, 250, and 300ms, they differ from note to note and vary depending on modwheel position. I think its just rough numbers


----------



## dreamnight92

kavinsky said:


> the midi still needs adjustments because the legato transitions are not strictly 100, 250, and 300ms, they differ from note to note and vary depending on modwheel position. I think its just rough numbers



Actually not, I found the legato extremely precise (at least compared to other strings libraries), and it's very easy to get them a tempo, plus you can easily humanization a taste


----------



## midiman

kavinsky said:


> the midi still needs adjustments because the legato transitions are not strictly 100, 250, and 300ms, they differ from note to note and vary depending on modwheel position. I think its just rough numbers


I don't agree. the CSS has the most consistent latency of any string library.


----------



## Mihkel Zilmer

I'd say the same - in my experience the latency in CSS is more consistent than any of the other string libraries I own.

I really don't exactly get this complaint actually... Ever since ambient legatos were first sampled there's been a certain degree of latency introduced. Every single ambient library out there has some. And it's always inconsistent. 

If anything, CSS has really tried to keep the timings consistent and what's even more - given you real ms figures to help you compensate for the latency.. No other developer has done this as far as I know, and yet I haven't heard anyone complain about legato latency before CSS.


----------



## kavinsky

True, it is more consistent, but it's still not 100% on time. 
I've ran into this multiple times, once I changed CC1 I had to readjust the starts of the notes.


----------



## calebfaith

I'm looking forward to when I can finally afford this library!


----------



## midiman

Mihkel Zilmer said:


> I'd say the same - in my experience the latency in CSS is more consistent than any of the other string libraries I own.
> 
> I really don't exactly get this complaint actually... Ever since ambient legatos were first sampled there's been a certain degree of latency introduced. Every single ambient library out there has some. And it's always inconsistent.
> 
> If anything, CSS has really tried to keep the timings consistent and what's even more - given you real ms figures to help you compensate for the latency.. No other developer has done this as far as I know, and yet I haven't heard anyone complain about legato latency before CSS.



Exactly Mihkel! Never heard before people complain about latency in other string libraries, yet CSS is the only library that has given us this wonderful feature to be able to consistent pull back notes at a precise ms number. Hats off to them. This is one of the features that I really like in CSS.


----------



## midiman

kavinsky said:


> True, it is more consistent, but it's still not 100% on time.
> I've ran into this multiple times, once I changed CC1 I had to readjust the starts of the notes.



But even live players would not be 100% exact on every note. I would not want it to be 100% exact. It is nice to have it humanized. Here and there I do find myself adjusting one note to be earlier or later, but it is rare.. Pulling back notes by 333ms does the trick for 99% of the notes.


----------



## Rodney Money

I am so confused. Are people wanting everything to be quantized?


----------



## Zhao Shen

Rodney Money said:


> I am so confused. Are people wanting everything to be quantized?


It's nice for the sound to be perfectly quantized when the MIDI notes are. Then we get to adjust things to our liking, taking into account the fact that in its current state the line plays robotically. Being well-quantized or consistent is a feature every library should have IMO, because otherwise your job of making the samples come to life is both 1) in the hands of the VST's scripting and 2) a lot more complicated to tailor to your own preferences.


----------



## Daniel F.

Zhao Shen said:


> It's nice for the sound to be perfectly quantized when the MIDI notes are. Then we get to adjust things to our liking, taking into account the fact that in its current state the line plays robotically. Being well-quantized or consistent is a feature every library should have IMO, because otherwise your job of making the samples come to life is both 1) in the hands of the VST's scripting and 2) a lot more complicated to tailor to your own preferences.



Couldn't have said it better myself. I want my notes to be perfectly on beat when they are supposed to be, not having to guess where the transient of the note is going to end up.


----------



## Saxer

Rodney Money said:


> I am so confused. Are people wanting everything to be quantized?


I like to compose with virtual instruments even when the result will be recorded with real players.
Printing out non quantised midi is a nightmare. And -300ms are eight notes in an average tempo. So quantizing later just fixes wrong values.

And realtime playing with the delay really feels like running through honey. It doesn't feel musical at all. We all bought fast computers to get rid of latency!

Adding a 'fast legato mode' and a 'all same delay' mode would solve all problems, keeps the existing legato possibilities and doesn't need any new samples. The only drawback is the work Alex has to do to implement this functions. So pleeeeeaaaaase


----------



## Jaybee

So in CSS, the legato delay is always there when playing in? I've watched the legato video but that shows the notes already programmed. I've not seen a video where legato is played in live. 

Could the legato line be played in as a regular sustain then the legato mode selected (and quantised, velocities changed) for playback afterwards? Not ideal but got to be better than trying to live with a 300ms delay when composing? The end result sounds amazing though. CSS is on my BF list so I need to get my head round the legato programming!


----------



## Daniel F.

Jaybee said:


> So in CSS, the legato delay is always there when playing in? I've watched the legato video but that shows the notes already programmed. I've not seen a video where legato is played in live.
> 
> Could the legato line be played in as a regular sustain then the legato mode selected (and quantised, velocities changed) for playback afterwards? Not ideal but got to be better than trying to live with a 300ms delay when composing? The end result sounds amazing though. CSS is on my BF list so I need to get my head round the legato programming!



Yes. You could turn of the legato and play the line then switch on the legato. Or you could use the legacy legato patches that has a constant and lower delay. There's multiple ways you could use it to suit the way you want to write and play.


----------



## dreamnight92

Or use the classic legato patch that have constant legato delay, and it has an immediate feel


----------



## Saxer

dreamnight92 said:


> Or use the classic legato patch that have constant legato delay, and it has an immediate feel


Yepp, that's a possibility! Ok, the only missing link is the 'same delay mode' for all articulations.


----------



## AllanH

I simply cannot handle the legato delay while playing in parts, so I play in with a plan sustain patch and switch to legato afterwards. My piano-fingers are not good at playing the legato overlap anyway, so this is no loss in productivity.


----------



## NoamL

I truly believe that some time in the near future, all samples will have a "preroll" data parameter (different for every sample in the library) which indicates how much of the sample is intended to be pre-roll. And samplers will have a standard "lookahead" behavior during playback that detects upcoming notes and calculates how early to start playing each sample such that the post-roll begins exactly with the MIDI note-on signal.

It has be to solved inside the sampler. All workarounds inside the DAW (such as pulling notes back) will fail because the preroll is a set time, not a set tempo. The moment you change the tempo, all the calculations are off.

CSS is the 2016 equivalent of the 2002 VSL legato instruments. A crude step towards an inevitable future. You can't have more realistic legato sampling until you accept that a legato transition's audio has to begin BEFORE the players land on the next note. You can't have quantized MIDI and realistic legato in the same DAW setup without a sampler that natively handles preroll.

The incredible realism and musicality of CSS is more than enough reward for the minutes it takes to realign notes manually. It's a stunning proof of concept. Instead of complaining about it we should all be supporting this technology breakthrough and letting Native Instruments know that we want a built in pre-roll technology in Kontakt as soon as feasible.

I very strongly hope that Alex Wallbank is not dissuaded from his sampling philosophy by the discussions in this & other threads. I really want CSB and CSWW to have the same technology.


----------



## Arviwan

I've already asked that question in an other thread and was kindly reminded not to do it there 'cause it was in the "commercial announcements" section ... so here i go again (and i hope this time i'm where i'm supposed to be) :

_Hi everyone,
i've read it all, and am still very interested in CSS ...but the intro price on Spitfire SS is also appealing ... any thoughts on this ?
I need help 
_
I've already had a couple of answers back there; and i need to precise i already own other strings libraries (EWHS, SSSE, Adagio), but still my question remains !
Thanks


----------



## Vik

NoamL said:


> I truly believe that some time in the near future, all samples will have a "preroll" data parameter (different for every sample in the library) which indicates how much of the sample is intended to be pre-roll. And samplers will have a standard "lookahead" behavior during playback that detects upcoming notes and calculates how early to start playing each sample such that the post-roll begins exactly with the MIDI note-on signal.
> 
> It has be to solved inside the sampler. All workarounds inside the DAW (such as pulling notes back) will fail because the preroll is a set time, not a set tempo. The moment you change the tempo, all the calculations are off.


I have been thinking avling the same lines. In one way or another, Kontakt needs to learn when the notes are supposed to start, and compensate for it. It's easy to find out when the notes are supposed to start; the tricky part is to find out when how much it needs to be offset. But could be stored in the note itself, or Kontakt could use the info it has about which articulation that is about to be played, and use info about needed latency/portamento time and do the dirty work for us.


----------



## BNRSound

Arviwan said:


> I've already asked that question in an other thread and was kindly reminded not to do it there 'cause it was in the "commercial announcements" section ... so here i go again (and i hope this time i'm where i'm supposed to be) :
> 
> _Hi everyone,
> i've read it all, and am still very interested in CSS ...but the intro price on Spitfire SS is also appealing ... any thoughts on this ?
> I need help
> _
> I've already had a couple of answers back there; and i need to precise i already own other strings libraries (EWHS, SSSE, Adagio), but still my question remains !
> Thanks




Well if you wait till 11/25 then you can get CSS for $350. SSS is $589. They are both great libraries, but for the money, CSS is the way to go IMO.


----------



## midiman

Saxer said:


> I like to compose with virtual instruments even when the result will be recorded with real players.
> Printing out non quantised midi is a nightmare. And -300ms are eight notes in an average tempo. So quantizing later just fixes wrong values.
> 
> And realtime playing with the delay really feels like running through honey. It doesn't feel musical at all. We all bought fast computers to get rid of latency!
> 
> Adding a 'fast legato mode' and a 'all same delay' mode would solve all problems, keeps the existing legato possibilities and doesn't need any new samples. The only drawback is the work Alex has to do to implement this functions. So pleeeeeaaaaase



Hello Saxer, I am sorry but 'all same delay' mode would simply not work for CSS. The whole point of CSS is that each speed of legato sounds different, because it takes a different time to go from one note to the other. Most libraries offer you only one legato speed/latency. CSS offer you 3! That is what makes it a richer library with more detail and nuances. If you want one speed only, use only one velocity and you will get always the same latency and same legato speed.
I think there may be some areas where CSS could improve, but this is not one of them. I LIKE having 3 different legato speeds and latencies. It makes the library sound amazing.
If this bothers you when you are playing the notes in, simply turn off legato when recording notes. Quantize them. Them apply the -333ms or -250ms etc on all notes (except first note), then... boom! the line comes to life.
I don't see what the fuss is about. On other libraries I need to correct note by note, or simply guess what is the latency which is painful and slow. CSS tells us precisely what the latency is for all speeds which makes it really streamlined. This is brilliant.
Ok, maybe they could implement a very low latency legato mode just for live inputting notes on recording, so it is easier to play them to click. Thoughts? Otherwise I love the advanced legato mode with 3 types of legato.


----------



## Saxer

I know the main idea with different legato speeds, and it's great!
But: there should be no technical problem to just delay the faster legatos inside Kontakt. Let the slow legato as it is. Delay the complete note of the faster legatos including the transition to match the delay of the slowest. So you get all different legatos with the same amount of delay. All that as a switchable delay mode. So: 'delay mode off' for fast playing/recording and 'delay mode on' for playback. That's all I'm asking for. Nothing complicated. In my eyes this would really enhance the workflow of this wonderful library. It would separate the playing/composing part from editing. And it would avoid the 'note by note' timing correction.

Synful did this already years ago. They had a realtime mode and a playback mode. In playback mode the note transitions were calculated but that resulted in a latency of one second. You could just switch it on for finest playback after recording.


----------



## calebfaith

Saxer said:


> I know the main idea with different legato speeds, and it's great!
> But: there should be no technical problem to just delay the faster legatos inside Kontakt. Let the slow legato as it is. Delay the complete note of the faster legatos including the transition to match the delay of the slowest. So you get all different legatos with the same amount of delay. All that as a switchable delay mode. So: 'delay mode off' for fast playing/recording and 'delay mode on' for playback. That's all I'm asking for. Nothing complicated. In my eyes this would really enhance the workflow of this wonderful library. It would separate the playing/composing part from editing. And it would avoid the 'note by note' timing correction.
> 
> Synful did this already years ago. They had a realtime mode and a playback mode. In playback mode the note transitions were calculated but that resulted in a latency of one second. You could just switch it on for finest playback after recording.



I've been wondering why they didn't do this for awhile


----------



## Karsten Vogt

I just played a bit with the 1st violin and noticed click noises e.g. on D#3 on full velocity (sustain). I found quite a lot noises like these with Spitfire's chamber strings. Is this supposed to happen? Is this common with string libraries?


----------



## fgimian

Wondering if we will still see Cinematic Studio Brass, Winds and Solo Strings this year


----------



## Lotias

fgimian said:


> Wondering if we will still see Cinematic Studio Brass, Winds and Solo Strings this year


His website says those are coming out next year.


----------



## chrysshawk

Hopefully the lesson learned from CSS is that quality is really worth waiting for. I'd much prefer to wait years for something that works really well, as opposed to forever wait for updates and fixes in the hope that it will someday work (and buy other sample libraries in the meanwhile to cover the flaws of the current one). Surely this must also create less stress from the library producers, although less cash right upfront.

Alex and Spectrasonics share the same boat.


----------



## fgimian

Lotias said:


> His website says those are coming out next year.



Oh, it used it say this year with Percussion coming next year.

Well yeah, definitely happy to wait if we see similar quality to CSS


----------



## thesteelydane

I was so inspired by @Christof 's the robber, that to learn the library I decided to see if I could write something similar. So Christof, I am SO sorry for ripping off your basic idea and harmony, but imitation is the sincerest form if flattery, right? And with the inspiration I got from your piece I ended up in unexpected places in the in-between sections.

This is CSS only, with just a touch reverb.


----------



## Mike Fox

thesteelydane said:


> I was so inspired by @Christof 's the robber, that to learn the library I decided to see if I could write something similar. So Christof, I am SO sorry for ripping off your basic idea and harmony, but imitation is the sincerest form if flattery, right? And with the inspiration I got from your piece I ended up in unexpected places in the in-between sections.
> 
> This is CSS only, with just a touch reverb.



Damn. Just damn. I officially quit any future attempts at trying to be a composer. Goodbye VI Control. Its been fun while it lasted.


----------



## thesteelydane

mikefox789 said:


> Damn. Just damn. I officially quit any future attempts at trying to be a composer. Goodbye VI Control. Its been fun while it lasted.


Oh dear, that's quite a compliment, thank you! But please stick to it - I'm sure you are a fantastic composer. I only started composing a couple of years ago, and have yet to make a single dime from it (although doing it full time is my dream). I have however played professionally in symphony orchestras for 10 years, and I was absolutely geeky about classical music as a kid, so some things are quite intuitive to me, but I also literally ONLY know how to write for strings. SO much to learn.


----------



## Mike Fox

thesteelydane said:


> Oh dear, that's quite a compliment, thank you! But please stick to it - I'm sure you are a fantastic composer. I only started composing a couple of years ago, and have yet to make a single dime from it (although doing it full time is my dream). I have however played professionally in symphony and orchestras for 10 years, and I was absolutely geeky about classical music as a kid, so some things are quite intuitive to me, but I also literally ONLY know how to write for strings. SO much to learn.


As soon as I read that you've only been composing for 2 years I immediately thought to myself, "Yeah, but I bet this guy has been playing for several", and then your next sentence confirmed it. You can always tell when a composer understands the instrument they're writing for. I only play guitar, but I never use it for orchestral pieces, so Im sure Im constantly doing things wrong from an academic standpoint. Anyway, If I can make money from my music, then you certainly will have no problems. Keep up the awesome music!


----------



## calebfaith

thesteelydane said:


> Oh dear, that's quite a compliment, thank you! But please stick to it - I'm sure you are a fantastic composer. I only started composing a couple of years ago, and have yet to make a single dime from it (although doing it full time is my dream). I have however played professionally in symphony and orchestras for 10 years, and I was absolutely geeky about classical music as a kid, so some things are quite intuitive to me, but I also literally ONLY know how to write for strings. SO much to learn.



Being a string player how would you say this library performs?


----------



## calebfaith

I finally purchased this for Christmas :D


----------



## kevinlee87

This is the most satisfying library. They should make Choir library.


----------



## Christof

thesteelydane said:


> I was so inspired by @Christof 's the robber, that to learn the library I decided to see if I could write something similar. So Christof, I am SO sorry for ripping off your basic idea and harmony, but imitation is the sincerest form if flattery, right? And with the inspiration I got from your piece I ended up in unexpected places in the in-between sections.
> 
> This is CSS only, with just a touch reverb.


----------



## thesteelydane

calebfaith said:


> Being a string player how would you say this library performs?


It's very, very good, but I'm sure you know that by now?


----------



## synthpunk

I would not put it past them but I'll take cinematic solo strings first please 

I would also take a look at the Stresov choirs and begin to get excited about the upcoming Spitfire choir as well.



kevinlee87 said:


> This is the most satisfying library. They should make Choir library.


----------



## AVaudio

mikefox789 said:


> As soon as I read that you've only been composing for 2 years I immediately thought to myself, "Yeah, but I bet this guy has been playing for several", and then your next sentence confirmed it. You can always tell when a composer understands the instrument they're writing for. I only play guitar, but I never use it for orchestral pieces, so Im sure Im constantly doing things wrong from an academic standpoint. Anyway, If I can make money from my music, then you certainly will have no problems. Keep up the awesome music!



Well, I also play guitar myself and I think that in terms of voicings, we are closer to "string writing style" than pianists, for instance.


----------



## calebfaith

dreamnight92 said:


> If there are Reaper users here, this script is very useful to move back midi notes in the piano roll: http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php?p=1721205&postcount=4
> 
> How to use it with CSS legato:
> 1) play the notes
> 2) quantize the notes
> 3) move back the legato notes of x milliseconds depending of the legato speed
> 4) quantize note end only
> ..and you get all the legato transitions a tempo
> 
> You can use the script for shorts as well



Sorry for digging up an old thread but I've built upon the script you've linked and made it so that it automatically moves back the notes depending on velocity for advanced legato! (So you don't have to enter the millisecond value)

Here it is: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzeBAw643BokckxrQzF6VTE3SWM


----------



## Jaybee

calebfaith said:


> Sorry for digging up an old thread but I've built upon the script you've linked and made it so that it automatically moves back the notes depending on velocity for advanced legato! (So you don't have to enter the millisecond value)
> 
> Here it is: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzeBAw643BokckxrQzF6VTE3SWM



Magnificent! A thousand thanks!


----------



## muk

Can this be done in Cubase as well? Maybe with the Input Transformer? That would be a big timesaver.


----------



## Mars

calebfaith said:


> Sorry for digging up an old thread but I've built upon the script you've linked and made it so that it automatically moves back the notes depending on velocity for advanced legato! (So you don't have to enter the millisecond value)
> 
> Here it is: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzeBAw643BokckxrQzF6VTE3SWM



That's a great gift, but please, excuse my "Reaper newbie" question, how exactly I am supposed to run the script ? 
I've got my CSS take, I run it, and then I've got : "CSS Nudge - Auto Velocity.lua:10: bad argument #1 to 'MIDI_Sort' (MediaItem_Take expected)"

Thanks for your help


----------



## calebfaith

Mars said:


> That's a great gift, but please, excuse my "Reaper newbie" question, how exactly I am supposed to run the script ?
> I've got my CSS take, I run it, and then I've got : "CSS Nudge - Auto Velocity.lua:10: bad argument #1 to 'MIDI_Sort' (MediaItem_Take expected)"
> 
> Thanks for your help



You have to run it with selected notes in the MIDI editor (the MIDI editor has a separate action list, you can edit them in the menu of the MIDI editor). If you need more help feel free to PM me


----------



## Mars

It works fine thanks ! I didnt know about the separate midi action list


----------



## mmjohan

calebfaith said:


> Sorry for digging up an old thread but I've built upon the script you've linked and made it so that it automatically moves back the notes depending on velocity for advanced legato! (So you don't have to enter the millisecond value)
> 
> Here it is: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzeBAw643BokckxrQzF6VTE3SWM


Will this work in Logic Pro X too?


----------



## Lotias

mmjohan said:


> Will this work in Logic Pro X too?


Not unless Logic Pro X can run Reaper scripts somehow?


----------



## calebfaith

There seems to be scripting in Logic but I don't use it myself (I only use windows). Im not sure if it's possible but you should have a look into it. This kind of scripting is pretty easy!


----------



## Saxer

The scripter in Logic is a track plugin and so it's a playback parameter only. It can't move notes in the editor. To have a picture: the notes 'from the editor' are sent 'through the scripter plugin' to the track instrument when Logic is running.
I know nothing about scripting but I think it should be possible to delay notes. If the track has a negative delay set in the track parameters (-300ms) the scripter could delay the notes against that negative value (depending on the note velocity level) to get the right amount of negative delay (-300ms and less).
But I don't think that's compatible with the Reaper scripting.


----------



## Ultra

Hi guys,

had a first play with CSS the other day. I did read the manual and most of this thread. still have a couple of questions:

(1) what is the best way to compensate for the delay of the individual legato transitions if I have various legato transitions on a single track ?

e.g. I have a track with slow, medium and fast legato transitions... do you guys manually select each of the notes in question and move them or is there a less tedious method (other than separating out to multiple tracks) ?

(2) any way to CC automate the Attack and Release parameter for the non-legato sustain notes ?

(3) is there any way to see in the GUI (or elsewhere) the current dynamics layer that is played back ?

Thanks !


----------



## calebfaith

Ultra said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> had a first play with CSS the other day. I did read the manual and most of this thread. still have a couple of questions:
> 
> (1) what is the best way to compensate for the delay of the individual legato transitions if I have various legato transitions on a single track ?
> 
> e.g. I have a track with slow, medium and fast legato transitions... do you guys manually select each of the notes in question and move them or is there a less tedious method (other than separating out to multiple tracks) ?
> 
> (2) any way to CC automate the Attack and Release parameter for the non-legato sustain notes ?
> 
> (3) is there any way to see in the GUI (or elsewhere) the current dynamics layer that is played back ?
> 
> Thanks !



1. If you don't have Reaper than I guess you could have 3 MIDI tracks routed to a single instrument with each separate tracks delay set at the appropriate level. 

2. Doesn't look like it. 

3. I don't think so

Sorry I'm not much help  haha


----------



## Ultra

calebfaith said:


> 1. If you don't have Reaper than I guess you could have 3 MIDI tracks routed to a single instrument with each separate tracks delay set at the appropriate level.
> 
> 2. Doesn't look like it.
> 
> 3. I don't think so
> 
> Sorry I'm not much help  haha


I work in DP... 

but out of interest how would you address the individual delay compensation in reaper in an automated fashion w/o having to select individual notes ?


----------



## calebfaith

Ultra said:


> I work in DP...
> 
> but out of interest how would you address the individual delay compensation in reaper in an automated fashion w/o having to select individual notes ?



I use this script which I wrote 



calebfaith said:


> Sorry for digging up an old thread but I've built upon the script you've linked and made it so that it automatically moves back the notes depending on velocity for advanced legato! (So you don't have to enter the millisecond value)
> 
> Here it is: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzeBAw643BokckxrQzF6VTE3SWM


----------



## Ultra

calebfaith said:


> I use this script which I wrote


ah, smart cat 

gotta check if DP allows running of custom scripts...


----------



## Ultra

noob question:

when using the sustain strings (non-legato) there is the static envelope which allows to define a fixed attack & release, but does key on/off velocity also control attack & release for the individual notes ?

Thanks.


----------



## jamwerks

BTW, just discovered a use for the dynamics mapping in C9. AFAIK, those come into play when used with the score editor, which I seldom use, but they work also with the Key editor. When you have a lane for "Articulations/Dynamics", there's always a small spot on the bottom for inserting dynamics. Those can also send cc messages in percentages.

So to control the "Con Sordino" button in CSS, I went into the Dynamic mapping setup (page 750 in the C9 manual) programmed "P" at 69% & "F" at 73%, and checked "Send controller" at the bottom, and set that to CC58. All the other dynamics symbols I set to 0.1%.

So inserting a "P" in the dynamics part of the Articulations lane will turn on "con sordino", and inserting an "F" will turn it off. All that to avoid having midi note KS's in the piaoi roll for controlling the con sordino function!


----------



## calebfaith

I've created a new script for *REAPER* to better control CSS delays and it works for all Advanced Legato, Standard Legato and Shorts. *It allows you to program notes similar to the 'classic' type of legato where note ends overlap*. The script needs to be run at startup/when a project is loaded and then it continues to run in the background and when play is clicked it automatically moves back MIDI notes the proper amount. When playback has finished it then moves the notes back into their original places! 

All you need to do is add to the tracks name: "[CSS AL]" for Advanced Legato, "[CSS SL]" for Standard Legato or "[CSS S]" for Shorts.

Here's the link: http://calebfaith.com/calebs-reaper-toolbox/
It also has a manual to explain how to use it/install it and there is a download link to that on that page.

I've also begun writing some other scripts to help out with track management/productivity!

PM me if anyone has any other script ideas


----------



## Ultra

playing with this lib some more, I have a few questions - read the manual and watched the CSS vids, but could not find an answer:

(a) why are non-legato sustains less loud than legato sustains ? I hear an audible difference just playing single notes.

(b) on legato lines, does the delay only kick-in during legato transitions (when overlapping notes) or does the delay kick in on every note (overlapping or not) that is played when legato is enabled ?

(c) how do I simulate the sustain pedal via CC for repeated notes ?

(d) the manual and the CSS vids state different delay values, which values are correct ?

Thanks !


----------



## dreamnight92

a: it depends by scripting I suppose, they are at -6,02 db 

b: the legato is triggered when the note overlap, if you want a non legato transition just don't overlap notes. 

c: press CC 64 at 127 just before the reapeted noted and release it after. 

d I found the manual ones to sound right to my ears


----------



## Ultra

@dreamnight92: thanks !!!

re (b): my question was in regards to the legato delay, which needs to be compensated for. so on Sustains, if legato is enabled, but the notes do NOT overlap, the legato delay will not kick in ?


----------



## dreamnight92

Ultra said:


> @dreamnight92: thanks !!!
> 
> re (b): my question was in regards to the legato delay, which needs to be compensated for. so on Sustains, if legato is enabled, but the notes do NOT overlap, the legato delay will not kick in ?



No! Check it by ear


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

This library needs a 2.0 version, in order to address the delay issues.
Alex is great at scripting so I know it can be done.
Still frustrated any time I use the library, because the sound is great but the delay issue is maddening.


----------



## Ashermusic

Patrick de Caumette said:


> This library needs a 2.0 version, in order to address the delay issues.
> Alex is great at scripting so I know it can be done.
> Still frustrated any time I use the library, because the sound is great but the delay issue is maddening.



It doesn't bother me that much. The workaround is to use the standard legato to play in the part then swap it out , when I choose, for the advanced legato. And I play on top of the beat but then when I conducted string sections, I generally had to conduct a little on top of the beat


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

Ashermusic said:


> It doesn't bother me that much. The workaround is to use the standard legato to play in the part then swap it out , when I choose, for the advanced legato. And I play on top of the beat but then when I conducted string sections, I generally had to conduct a little on top of the beat


I'll have to try the standard legato and see if it makes a difference, but if eventually you have to change it to advanced, no matter what, you need to spend the time to re-position notes = pain in the a**
And the position where I need to place legato notes is not on the top of the beat, it is WAY ahead of the beat :-(


----------



## dreamnight92

Patrick de Caumette said:


> I'll have to try the standard legato and see if it makes a difference, but if eventually you have to change it to advanced, no matter what, you need to spend the time to re-position notes = pain in the a**
> And the position where I need to place legato notes is not on the top of the beat, it is WAY ahead of the beat :-(



What DAW are you using? Modern DAWs usually have some scripting that automatically moves back notes depending on velocity (see post 1024 on this discussion for example)


----------



## muk

The legato delay is tedious. Midiman posted a trick that streamlines the process, though. See here:

http://vi-control.net/community/threads/cinematic-studio-strings.54192/page-49#post-4015822

Still not ideal, but way faster than adjusting the notes manually.


----------



## mmjohan

midiman said:


> In case anyone is interested here is a way to streamline working with CSS and the latency of the diferent types of legato:
> Selected a group of notes that have been quarantined. Go to midi menu, then logical editor. Then change the values as you see in my snapshot. Then Apply. then save as a preset (still in the logical editor window). Once you save it as a preset, it will show in on the key commands, inside the folder *process logical preset, *then you select and assign a key command to it. So in the future when you selected notes on the key editor, you just need to press the key command you assigned and the selected notes will move back 333ms. Repeat the process for the different legato speeds and assign a different key command for each.This speeds up a lot the workflow with CSS, as you can now quantize and then quickly move the notes where they need to be in order to be on time. Hope this helps.



Is there a way to do this but in Logic?


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

Using a project logical preset would help for sure.
But you still have to go and locate the notes that use a legato articulation, select them throughout the whole track, decide what legato speed they are assigned to, bring up the logical editor and preset and process them.
Not fast, not intuitive, and frankly, the only library where I have to do this in order to use it.
Not satisfactory.
Alex is great at scripts. There has got to be a way to fix this...


----------



## N.Caffrey

Patrick de Caumette said:


> Using a project logical preset would help for sure.
> But you still have to go and locate the notes that use a legato articulation, select them throughout the whole track, decide what legato speed they are assigned to, bring up the logical editor and preset and process them.
> Not fast, not intuitive, and frankly, the only library where I have to do this in order to use it.
> Not satisfactory.
> Alex is great at scripts. There has got to be a way to fix this...


Totally agree with you. I wish I bought Spitfire instead


----------



## Ashermusic

Things that bother other people a lot only tend to bother me a little. Just my nature, I guess.


----------



## muk

Yes, I concur Patrick. It should be possible to fix it through scripting, after all the delay is much more pronounced than in any other lib I know. I hope he does in an update, it would save a lot of time. Until then, Midimans solution is workable for me.


----------



## cyoder

To those who don't like the legato delay, have you tried the Classic Legato patches? They seem to have the same amount of delay as competing products. In my eyes, to remove the delay will actually reduce the quality of legato, since much of the smoothness is coming from the natural recording of the "lead in" time before the transition. I'm personally happy to deal with the delay for what I think are superior results. But if that's not your cup of tea, to my understanding the Classic Legato patches are supposed to be the answer to that. 

Best,


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

cyoder said:


> To those who don't like the legato delay, have you tried the Classic Legato patches? They seem to have the same amount of delay as competing products. In my eyes, to remove the delay will actually reduce the quality of legato, since much of the smoothness is coming from the natural recording of the "lead in" time before the transition. I'm personally happy to deal with the delay for what I think are superior results. But if that's not your cup of tea, to my understanding the Classic Legato patches are supposed to be the answer to that.
> 
> Best,


I haven't tried the classic legato. Will do, thanks!


----------



## Rob Elliott

Feel the same about the 'hassle factor' - the results are worth it - even though it takes more time than I want or have. With the tightest of schedules all the client is getting is 'classic legato'. (shhhhhhhhh) It's not like the classic is crap - just not the 'next gen' the advanced is.


----------



## Saxer

As I like the sound and behavior of the 'fast legato' better than the 'classic legato' my workaround is setting the velocity input (midi plugin) to +100 so only the fast transitions are used.


----------



## NoamL

This has been discussed a few times ... the requested 'solution' cannot be programmed by a Kontakt script.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the signal path of a VI is:

*Current Method*
1. The DAW "stumbles across" a MIDI note, whether live or playback
2. The DAW immediately sends the parameters of the note to Kontakt
3. Kontakt immediately triggers a sample playback from a loaded VI

For next gen legato:

*Solution*
1. The DAW sees an upcoming note
2. The DAW sends the parameters of the note to Kontakt at a fixed heads-up time (e.g. 1 second) taking into account the tempo map.
3. Kontakt triggers a delay (up to 1 second) based on a VI's scripting (e.g. different delays for different note velocities)
4. Kontakt triggers the sample playback.

Clearly, the implementation of a *"prelay"* can only happen on the DAW side, because it's the DAW that handles the tempo map, and the DAW is also the piece of software that tells the difference between live entry and playback.

DAWs should have had this feature long ago IMO.

CSS is not the only library with this problem. EVERY library with true legato plays behind the beat. It's just extra problematic in CSS because the transition samples are long, expressive and variable.


----------



## NoamL

Actually now that I think about it... would this work?

*Workaround*
1. You have your notes quantized on the grid
2. The VI developer tells you to put a negative delay plugin (e.g. -1000 ms) on the track. *This is DAW-agnostic* - very critical
3. A built in Kontakt script delays each note's onset by up to 1000 ms based on its velocity.

So let's say you have two notes on the grid, A and B. And you have an A-B legato transition that is a whopping 200ms long.

Sample A would trigger when the DAW "stumbles across" note A. It would have delay -1000 plus +1000 and land on the grid.

Sample A-B would be triggered when the DAW "stumbles across" note B. It would have delay -1000+800 and trigger 200ms before the grid.

Sample B would be triggered when the DAW "stumbles across" note B. It would have delay -1000+1000 and land on the grid just after A-B.

Does this work?


----------



## Saxer

The problem could be 'flattened' by a fast 'recording mode' and a delayed 'playback mode' with a standard delay for all articulations. There's no technical problem to delay the fast legatos (which has to be done in Kontakt). Recording mode on: only fast legatos are triggered. Playback mode on: every note is 300 ms delayed which can be compensated by track delay in the DAW. If you want slow transitions you can edit the velocity.
Pro: realtime playing without delay, in playback: no different note speeds, quantisation works as expected with all legatos, midi to notation works as expected. Con: can't hear slow transitions while recording, only on playback.

For me that would be a great help.

*edit* same thoughts NoamL


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

NoamL said:


> This has been discussed a few times ... the requested 'solution' cannot be programmed by a Kontakt script.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong but the signal path of a VI is:
> 
> *Current Method*
> 1. The DAW "stumbles across" a MIDI note, whether live or playback
> 2. The DAW immediately sends the parameters of the note to Kontakt
> 3. Kontakt immediately triggers a sample playback from a loaded VI
> 
> For next gen legato:
> 
> *Solution*
> 1. The DAW sees an upcoming note
> 2. The DAW sends the parameters of the note to Kontakt at a fixed heads-up time (e.g. 1 second) taking into account the tempo map.
> 3. Kontakt triggers a delay (up to 1 second) based on a VI's scripting (e.g. different delays for different note velocities)
> 4. Kontakt triggers the sample playback.
> 
> Clearly, the implementation of a *"prelay"* can only happen on the DAW side, because it's the DAW that handles the tempo map, and the DAW is also the piece of software that tells the difference between live entry and playback.
> 
> DAWs should have had this feature long ago IMO.
> 
> CSS is not the only library with this problem. EVERY library with true legato plays behind the beat. It's just extra problematic in CSS because the transition samples are long, expressive and variable.


Thank you for explaining it in such a clear manner.
I had missed that discussion and this helps!
So it's on the DAW.
In this day and age, where things get more and more complex and exiciting.
And with our abilities to get closer and closer to a believable performance, the tools get sharper and have to continue doing so.
DAW developers are constantly on the look out to provide for the latest needs.
This one seems like an important one; the ability to allow for MIDI messages to be read ahead of time by the sampler/scripter, so that a live performance is captured and then played back aligned correctly to the grid.
Initial performance's response/trigger can be lagging, but on playback it is back on time...
I guess we have to whine to our DAW developers...


----------



## Saxer

More or less all DAWs have a track delay today (+/- 1000ms). That's not the problem. The delay coming from the plugin can be compensated if the delay doesn't vary. A standard delay for all legatos is all what is needed. In other words for CSS: correct the fast legatos.


----------



## Vik

NoamL said:


> 1. You have your notes quantized on the grid
> 2. The VI developer tells you to put a negative delay plugin (e.g. -1000 ms) on the track. *This is DAW-agnostic* - very critical
> 3. A built in Kontakt script delays each note's onset by up to 1000 ms based on its velocity.
> 
> 
> [---]
> 
> Does this work?


I believe it's a realistic solution, even with non-quantised notes. But there needs to be a pre-delay parameter for this to work of course, and it should work with all DAWs/all samplers. Therefore I believe it should be a part of the MIDI protocol. 

It could be as simple as this: 
Give the region a predelay of, say 1 ms. This option already exists, and should be fairly reliable unless the predelay happens in the midst of a tempo change. That's it.
Then, Kontakt (etc) needs to know which notes it needs to give a special treatment (portamento can be triggered in different ways), and how long the needed predelay is.


----------



## NoamL

I drew a picture of my idea over lunch. Will send it to Alex this evening (unless you guys can spot a fatal error?). Gotta get back to work


----------



## NoamL

Saxer said:


> The problem could be 'flattened' by a fast 'recording mode' and a delayed 'playback mode' with a standard delay for all articulations. There's no technical problem to delay the fast legatos (which has to be done in Kontakt). Recording mode on: only fast legatos are triggered. Playback mode on: every note is 300 ms delayed which can be compensated by track delay in the DAW. If you want slow transitions you can edit the velocity.
> Pro: realtime playing without delay, in playback: no different note speeds, quantisation works as expected with all legatos, midi to notation works as expected. Con: can't hear slow transitions while recording, only on playback.
> 
> For me that would be a great help.
> 
> *edit* same thoughts NoamL



Great minds


----------



## Ultra

dreamnight92 said:


> What DAW are you using? Modern DAWs usually have some scripting that automatically moves back notes depending on velocity (see post 1024 on this discussion for example)



the problem is that this does not work when you have MIDI tracks that contain overlapping legato transitions, then single notes, then repeated notes (not overlapping), and then new legato lines that do not have a legato transition from the previous note or bar.

Single condition scripts cannot identify the notes that need to be moved (in this example), as these scripts only identify notes by key velocity - the script would also need to check for whether the note is overlapping another note, and whether that note is not the first note in the legato line (as you don't need to offset the first note of each new legato line).

It's like Patrick said, in those situations you have to go through the track and move everything manually. And later, if you want to switch all of those to a different transition speed (slow|medium|fast), you'd have to revise the re-positioning (by the difference in delay). 

If you put a global MIDI offset on the track, you'll move all notes in a fixed direction, that is incorrect for notes with different legato transition speeds, or notes that start a new legato line or repeated notes.

Best to always make a copy of the MIDI track so that you can go back to the original note positioning when you try this track out on a different library (that does not need manual delay compensation).


----------



## jamwerks

And doesn't all this suppose that we want would music that is 100% on the grid, which is not the case of some/most of us...


----------



## Ultra

jamwerks said:


> And doesn't all this suppose that we want would music that is 100% on the grid, which is not the case of some/most of us...


well, the offset that you apply is relative to how you played the notes in... when delay compensated, it's how you actually played it in. This is not aligning to fixed grid points.


----------



## Ultra

so just to answer one of my questions - at least this is what I've found - maybe others can confirm that, regarding repeated notes:

when using legato sustains, (non-overlapping) repeated notes generally are not subject to the delay, ergo when using a global track offset, you will have to manually counteract that. 

but when using the sustain pedal (CC64) on repeated notes, although non-overlapping, they are now introducing the same delay as legato transition notes.


----------



## Saxer

Cinesamples just did it in their Woodwind library update 1.3:


> QUANTIZE MODE: In any True Legato instrument, there will be some lag when playing note-to-note transitions. This is usually compensated for by moving all notes slightly to the left in the sequencer, or by using a track pre-delay. The problem with most legato libraries is that the timings of each note are inconsistent; the first note in a phrase will sound immediately, while subsequent notes will be delayed. The Quantize Mode tackles this problem by calculating the legato lag time, and applying the same delay to non-legato samples. This means you can quantize a performance, shift the MIDI to the left, and the timings of each note will be consistent.


----------



## dreamnight92

Ultra said:


> so just to answer one of my questions - at least this is what I've found - maybe others can confirm that, regarding repeated notes:
> 
> when using legato sustains, (non-overlapping) repeated notes generally are not subject to the delay, ergo when using a global track offset, you will have to manually counteract that.
> 
> but when using the sustain pedal (CC64) on repeated notes, although non-overlapping, they are now introducing the same delay as legato transition notes.



The script celebfaith made for reaper is very intelligent: it moves back the notes just when overlapped, so that it works in every situation (let me check, but it should work also for reapeted notes if overlapped). 

By the way I think that you cannot get rid of delay for true legato, because it's how true legato works! For me CSS was a big improvement from previous libraries where I took hours and hours to set legato transition a tempo because they were inconsistent.


----------



## Ultra

dreamnight92 said:


> The script celebfaith made for reaper is very intelligent: it moves back the notes just when overlapped, so that it works in every situation (let me check, but it should work also for reapeted notes if overlapped).
> 
> By the way I think that you cannot get rid of delay for true legato, because it's how true legato works! For me CSS was a big improvement from previous libraries where I took hours and hours to set legato transition a tempo because they were inconsistent.


repeated notes cannot be overlapped  but, at least in my testing, repeated notes (with a small space between them) only introduce a delay when used in combination with sustain


----------



## dreamnight92

Ultra said:


> repeated notes cannot be overlapped  but, at least in my testing, repeated notes (with a small space between them) only introduce a delay when used in combination with sustain



No, you can, just disable the autofix overlap...by the way the script doesn't work properly, so that you need to move back note manually for repeated notes (I'm always talking about reaper and the script posted above in this thread).


----------



## Ultra

dreamnight92 said:


> No, you can, just disable the autofix overlap...by the way the script doesn't work properly, so that you need to move back note manually for repeated notes (I'm always talking about reaper and the script posted above in this thread).


I'm using DP... but what I don't understand: how and why would you overlap the exact same repeated note ? how would a player in real life legato transition from a note to the exact same note on the same string ?

also, regarding delay: like I said if you use Sustain (CC64, enable 127 before the repeated note, then disable 0 after the start of the repeated note) between two repeated notes (with a small space between them), the repeated note will introduce the same legato delay as all other notes, ergo you don't need to move the note manually, you can just use the same fixed track offset that you use for all other legato notes


----------



## calebfaith

dreamnight92 said:


> No, you can, just disable the autofix overlap...by the way the script doesn't work properly, so that you need to move back note manually for repeated notes (I'm always talking about reaper and the script posted above in this thread).



Yeah that would have been too much work! haha there are multiple ways of sending CC messages so it would have been to messy/probably not possible. I did include an older version of a script which moves selected notes back based on velocity so you can just select these notes and use that script


----------



## Ultra

apologies if this has been stated before, but what is the bit depth and sample rate of the CSS samples ?

Cannot find the info in the manual or on their website.

Thanks.


----------



## dreamnight92

I suppose 16 bit, 44 kHz, by the sample size


----------



## JonSolo

Well I joined the club. Yep, it is everything folks claim it to be. Awesome.


----------



## Zhao Shen

Q1 2017 is done... That means it can't be much longer until we get the brass and solo strings... Alex. Bruh. You're killing me.


----------



## galactic orange

Hopefully they'll be out soon, but "early 2017" could very well mean through the end of April if the year is divided in to three equal 4-month sections: early, mid, and late. So unfortunately we just have to keep waiting for the new libraries. I'm passing up other purchases to be able to get these as soon as they're out, so I'm with you and the others in this waiting game.


----------



## NathanTiemeyer

Zhao Shen said:


> Alex. Bruh. You're killing me.





galactic orange said:


> I'm with you and the others in this waiting game.



I think we should form a Cinematic Studio Series support group  

Looking forward to their new releases now more than ever! Skipped the Embertone solo strings deal in faith that Cinematic Studio Solo Strings will be worth it. Also I'm not buying anything brass related until we get a taste of Studio Brass! 

I hope I made the right decision! I'm sure it'll be worth the wait!


----------



## JonSolo

That sounds like the right decision. I have done the same in "waiting" on the brass. Meanwhile I "settled" for Berlin Woodwinds to add to EWQL HOW. And that was as good of a decision as CSS! Brass has always been tricky, yet I find myself gravitating back to EWQL HOB.

As far as the solo strings are concerned, it would take something special to top my Chris Hein library.


----------



## Viegaard

Zhao Shen said:


> Q1 2017 is done... That means it can't be much longer until we get the brass and solo strings... Alex. Bruh. You're killing me.



It has been rumoured for a long time that it is super delayed.


----------



## Alex W

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for the keen interest in our new libraries. I’m working really hard to get solo strings finished as soon as possible, but it’s taking considerably longer than I anticipated. I knew this library would require a high degree of attention to detail, but I underestimated just how much! Brass is well underway but is still a few months off I'm afraid (we've changed the dates on the website to reflect this). I do apologise for the delay - but I’m a bit obsessive about getting things right when we release. Feeling really excited about getting it all done though - as soon as it’s ready VI will be the first to know!

Thanks so much for your patience,
Alex


----------



## Karsten Vogt

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo (with reverb and delay.


----------



## jamwerks

Looking forward to all this! Do hope there's a Contrebass in the Solo Strings!!


----------



## NathanTiemeyer

Alex W said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> Thanks for the keen interest in our new libraries. I’m working really hard to get solo strings finished as soon as possible, but it’s taking considerably longer than I anticipated. I knew this library would require a high degree of attention to detail, but I underestimated just how much! Brass is well underway but is still a few months off I'm afraid (we've changed the dates on the website to reflect this). I do apologise for the delay - but I’m a bit obsessive about getting things right when we release. Feeling really excited about getting it all done though - as soon as it’s ready VI will be the first to know!
> 
> Thanks so much for your patience,
> Alex


Alex, thank you so much for the update! Glad to see the new products are still track for a release this year! Looking forward to them immensely! I'm sure it'll be worth the wait


----------



## Zhao Shen

Hey @Alex W now that we're a bit closer to mid 2017 could you tease us with an update on how things are going?  Don't know if I've ever been more excited for a library...


----------



## eli0s

Zhao Shen said:


> Hey @Alex W now that we're a bit closer to mid 2017 could you tease us with an update on how things are going?  Don't know if I've ever been more excited for a library...


+*∞*


----------



## EuropaWill

Please let the new solo library have at least 3 dynamic layers for the performance legato and realtime control of legato slur and portamento speeds....


----------



## bvaughn0402

How do we know if there are any updates for CSS?


----------



## Quodlibet

bvaughn0402 said:


> How do we know if there are any updates for CSS?



http://www.cinematicstudioseries.com/updates.html


----------



## Zhao Shen

Update to the website: "The next instalment, Cinematic Studio Solo Strings is due for completion mid 2017. *Cinematic Studio Brass is slated for late 2017*, and the final two releases, Cinematic Studio Woodwinds and Cinematic Studio Percussion are due for completion next year."


----------



## NathanTiemeyer

Zhao Shen said:


> Update to the website: "The next instalment, Cinematic Studio Solo Strings is due for completion mid 2017. *Cinematic Studio Brass is slated for late 2017*, and the final two releases, Cinematic Studio Woodwinds and Cinematic Studio Percussion are due for completion next year."


Thanks for the heads up! It's too bad Brass will not come out until later this year ... but all aboard the hype train for Cinematic Studio Solo Strings


----------



## Markus S

Very much looking forward to the solo strings. The main library is fatastic. I play the violin, viola and a little cello, and think they totally nailed it, best string library so far, IMO.


----------



## ctsai89

Dammit!! cinematic studio brass. I'm going to have heart attack from impatience. No kidding.


----------



## muziksculp

Looking forward to the *Solo Strings* release, hopefully this month, or July. 

Yes, _patience_ is needed for the Brass (later this year), and (Woodwinds, Perc. ) Next Year.


----------



## synthnut1

I have learned to be patient with Alex when it comes to his programs entering the market place ....and I don't mind at all because I know that when they hit the streets , they are READY , and DONE RIGHT !!.... You don't have some 1/2 baked program that might just as well be beta as some of the companies have when rushing their programs to just get them out there ..... not to mention his prices are more than fair ....


----------



## jamwerks

Man, they had said all 4 already 6 months ago!


----------



## Zhao Shen

jamwerks said:


> Man, they had said all 4 already 6 months ago!



Eh, at least they seem to have an idea of the standard they want to measure up to. Better to wait for libraries that will rival the realism of CSS than to rush out something disappointing. _cough _Hollywood Solo Strings _cough
_
On second thought, calling HWSS disappointing might actually be too generous.


----------



## mcalis

I am actually looking forward to the woodwinds the most. As the owner of the Spitfire Audio BML Reeds and Low Reeds (not the symphonic woodwinds bundle), the lack of articulations can be a bit frustrating, despite the fantastic sound. CS2 was great, CSS was even better, so I have very high hopes for what Alex can do with the woodwind section, especially considering how Berlin Woodwinds & VSL are the only viable, yet expensive, alternatives (for me at least. Other people may think differently).

CS2 also had a great run mode which I can see being a good match for doing lovely woodwind runs!

I do also really hope that the less frequently used woodwinds (bass clarinet, bass flute, etc) would be included.

Of course, the brass is also exciting. I care less for the solo instruments to be honest. Virharmonic is already doing a great job for the strings there.


----------



## jamwerks

Well, with VSL back in the game, all the devs are a bit scared imo (and with good reason). We'll probably see a rise in quality across the board!


----------



## galactic orange

I was holding out for CSB, not having quite as much enthusiasm for the solo strings. I wish the order of release was reversed, but I am glad Alex isn't dropping them on us in the same time frame. Who am I kidding... I'll be snagging the solo strings as soon as they're released as that's a huge hole in my library! However for brass I'm giving Adventure Brass another look in the meantime.


----------



## CT

I haven't had the fortune to acquire or use CSS yet, but everything I've seen and heard from it has me feeling it's the most straightforward, "composer friendly" library out there, at least in the way that I'm after, while maintaining quality and comprehensiveness, though I wouldn't mind some different bowings like sul pont/sul tasto, etc. Spitfire comes in second, my only gripe there being a somewhat more cluttered interface/workflow (and the price tag/computer power demands, which I just can't meet at this point).

Anyway, if these upcoming libraries match or exceed the level of CSS in terms of sonic quality, comprehensiveness, and smoothness of use, then I will be extraordinarily pleased and eager to build a setup with the Cinematic Studio series at its core.


----------



## muziksculp

jamwerks said:


> Well, with VSL back in the game, all the devs are a bit scared imo (and with good reason). We'll probably see a rise in quality across the board!



You got that right ! 

Yes, VSL is back in the game, and I think they will be surprising us with how good their new Sychron Libraries will sound compared to the current Kontakt based libraries from the other Orch. Library Developers. 

So, the bar of quality, flexibility, and realism is moving up higher once again, developers are aware of this, and are most likely taking that into consideration as far as their next releases. Which is a good thing for all of us.


----------



## Consona

Zhao Shen said:


> *Cinematic Studio Brass is slated for late 2017*,


Yea, my exact reaction. Cannot wait for Alex's Brass Library!


----------



## SoNowWhat?

NathanTiemeyer said:


> ... but all aboard the hype train for Cinematic Studio Solo Strings


I am so far ahead of you on this one they've made me the freaking engineer!


----------



## muk

Very curious to hear their solo strings. Solo strings are a true litmus test for sampling, and I don't have a library that I am happy with. VSL Solo Strings are there in terms of articulations and consistency, but I just can't coax a tone I like out of the library. BST First Chairs is the opposite. I like the tone, but the library is so inconsistent and unfinished I simply can not use it for string quartet work. Emotional Cello sounds gorgeous and seems to be programmed well. Unfortunately there's is only the cello out, and no signs of Harmonic Subtones releasing anything else soon. So yes, I'm looking forward to hear the Cinematic Studio Solo Strings.


----------



## Vin

Zhao Shen said:


> Better to wait for libraries that will rival the realism of CSS than to rush out something disappointing. _cough _Hollywood Solo Strings _cough
> _
> On second thought, calling HWSS disappointing might actually be too generous.



True, but tbh they all are - solo strings is the area which is still very far away from emulating the real deal. SM has the unrivaled playability, but tone isn't there in my opinion.

Back on topic, excited to see what Alex and his team have to offer next - CS2 is still one of my favorite libraries, using it in every cue


----------



## Silence-is-Golden

Alex W said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> Thanks for the keen interest in our new libraries. I’m working really hard to get solo strings finished as soon as possible, but it’s taking considerably longer than I anticipated. I knew this library would require a high degree of attention to detail, but I underestimated just how much! Brass is well underway but is still a few months off I'm afraid (we've changed the dates on the website to reflect this). I do apologise for the delay - but I’m a bit obsessive about getting things right when we release. Feeling really excited about getting it all done though - as soon as it’s ready VI will be the first to know!
> 
> Thanks so much for your patience,
> Alex


Hello Alex,

Probably many of us are awaiting the new libraries you scheduled for release this year.
Not to hold you to dates, because so far you have been succesful in avoiding them :D
but is it still realistic that both brass and solo strings will see the light of day for us in 2017?
For me personally I am in need of a brass update for long now, and since being a happy user of CSS I look forward to a full CSSeries orchestra.

Can you give any guestimate for your releases, if it is still in 2017?

Thanks in advance,
SiG


----------



## Silence-is-Golden

To everyone interested in the to be released CSSeries solo strings & brass;
I send an email via CSSeries to Alex with the questions posted above earlier and to my happy surprise he responded with the following;
- solo strings will be released most likely in the next few weeks!

- brass is well underway, and sounds fantastic (!)
Release end of the year is the planning so far.

All in all, for those who find these libs appealing, don't spend all your money if you want to acquire them :D


----------



## noxtenebrae17

Silence-is-Golden said:


> - solo strings will be released most likely in the next few weeks!



Exciting news! Thanks for sharing. Really looking forward to this one.


----------



## eli0s

Very interesting! I can't wait!

I wonder if the Solo Strings will stir up the the sampling world like CSS did in their respected field...

For the Brass I'm more confident that they will!


----------



## Mike Fox

I'm actually having a difficult time with getting CSS shorts to cut through the mix with my more cinematic/epic compositions. Does anyone have any tips for this?


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

mikefox789 said:


> I'm actually having a difficult time with getting CSS shorts to cut through the mix with my more cinematic/epic compositions. Does anyone have any tips for this?


Maybe link your track? Hard to do any of a diagnose without hearing your work.


----------



## ctsai89

mikefox789 said:


> I'm actually having a difficult time with getting CSS shorts to cut through the mix with my more cinematic/epic compositions. Does anyone have any tips for this?



my first thought is:

use tree and ambient mics for other patches but for the shorts use only dry and a bit of something else and boost up the volume till it cuts through the mix clearly.


----------



## ctsai89

So solos strings would be named CSSS?


----------



## muk

ctsai89 said:


> So solos strings would be named CSSS?



Actually it should be CSSSS for Cinematic Studio Series Solo Strings. Or we do away with the acronyms, they do tend to get confusing, and not only to new forum members.


----------



## tack

Or CSSSS - Cinematic Studio Series Solo Strings. CS^4?

Edit: sniped by muk.


----------



## Rob Elliott

I am thinking about calling them 'my precious'.


----------



## artomatic

The never ending quest to purchase the latest orchestral samples. And then Black Friday peaks its head... Then the CSS Brass is released... 
Oh, and don't forget to save for the Holidays...


----------



## Consona

mikefox789 said:


> I'm actually having a difficult time with getting CSS shorts to cut through the mix with my more cinematic/epic compositions. Does anyone have any tips for this?


Boost high end frequencies since CSS lacks them. Use EQ or something like Xfer OTT.


----------



## JohnBMears

Consona said:


> Boost high end frequencies since CSS lacks them. Use EQ or something like Xfer OTT.



Would something like VSL EXCITER (from Vienna Suite) work for this?


----------



## Consona

JohnBMears said:


> Would something like VSL EXCITER (from Vienna Suite) work for this?


I don't own it, so dunno, but IMO it should. Xfer OTT is a save bet since it's free and it can bring insane amount of vivacity to the high frequencies. Or you can try Slate Digital's Revival which is free too, but Xfer OTT is really all you need in this regard.


----------



## aaronventure

Xfer OTT is a multiband compressor (modeled after a preset for "Multiband Dynamics" in Ableton Live). 

You don't really need to bother with it. It's a decent plugin to have, but for boosting high frequencies your DAW already has everything you need. Just insert an EQ that comes with your DAW, use a high shelf and adjust gain and frequency until you find your sweet spot. You can also tweak the resonance (Q) to get a steeper or a less steep curve.


----------



## Consona

aaronventure said:


> Xfer OTT is a multiband compressor (modeled after a preset for "Multiband Dynamics" in Ableton Live).
> 
> You don't really need to bother with it. It's a decent plugin to have, but for boosting high frequencies your DAW already has everything you need. Just insert an EQ that comes with your DAW, use a high shelf and adjust gain and frequency until you find your sweet spot. You can also tweak the resonance (Q) to get a steeper or a less steep curve.


The thing is, different plugins give me different results. That's why I sometimes use OTT and sometimes EQ, sometimes both, sometimes just Revival, etc.


----------



## aaronventure

Of course, whatever works, works. But there's a lot that you can do with a quality EQ in terms of character.


----------



## ctsai89

Silence-is-Golden said:


> To everyone interested in the to be released CSSeries solo strings & brass;
> I send an email via CSSeries to Alex with the questions posted above earlier and to my happy surprise he responded with the following;
> - solo strings will be released most likely in the next few weeks!
> 
> - brass is well underway, and sounds fantastic (!)
> Release end of the year is the planning so far.
> 
> All in all, for those who find these libs appealing, don't spend all your money if you want to acquire them :D



Ok thanks for informing us that it's announced to possibly be released in a few weeks 

Guess what?

Palpitations and arrhythmia here it comes for my heart, for till it's released 

Will be praying that I live


----------



## John Busby

ctsai89 said:


> Palpitations and arrhythmia here it comes for my heart


if i didn't know any better i'd say you're kinda excited lol
i actually am too, i didn't think i would be, but yea, after i was underwhelmed by Century Brass (especially the demos and the pricing - geez) i definitely am now


----------



## jamwerks

"Most likely.... in the next few weeks". Well that's pretty vague again so probably not really there yet. Doing solo instruments (strings, brass) has probably proved to be much more difficult (phasing, cross-fading, etc) than his earlier ensemble products where you can get away with about anything.


----------



## Silence-is-Golden

jamwerks said:


> "Most likely.... in the next few weeks". Well that's pretty vague again so probably not really there yet. Doing solo instruments (strings, brass) has probably proved to be much more difficult (phasing, cross-fading, etc) than his earlier ensemble products where you can get away with about anything.


well in the reply I got these were Alex words ( if he doesn't mind me quoting):
_....We're in the very final stages of preparing to release the solo strings library, and it should definitely be out in the next few weeks...._


----------



## eli0s

Next few weeks could very well mean a couple of months or more... It's still going to be before the end of the year.
I have faith that the Brass will rock! However, I'm septic about the Solo Strings. Nevertheless, I hope for the best!!!


----------



## lucor

Well that was a quick few weeks. 
https://vi-control.net/community/th...olo-strings-available-now.64793/#post-4126552


----------



## eli0s

Indeed it was!!! Taking pills for my heart now! Calm, keep it calm!!


----------



## ghandizilla

Anyone has any idea about the improvements that come with the 1.5 update? There are classic legato improvements, but otherwise?


----------



## Consona

Could anybody owning CSS post a simple one note repetition violions and celli spicatto line showing the dynamic range? Pretty please.  I'm interested in how the library handles very soft dynamics, I have CS2 but I feel the lowest dyn level is missing.


----------



## eli0s

Here is an example.



All sections entering in sequence from FF to pp and hold the ostinato in pp when the other sections follow. At the end all sections are doing a crescendo from pp to FF.

I've added a few accents with non spiccato samples, but 98% of the notes are just the spiccato articulation.

The mix is almost the default but with a little emphasis on the close microphones.

I've noticed that the Basses have a different transition point in their velocities from the rest of the sections. This is evident at 36" when an accent is off beat in the bass line whereas everywhere else it isn't using the same midi data.


----------



## AdamKmusic

Only £248 or so for this right now, I should get it right now yeah?


----------



## Consona

eli0s said:


> Here is an example.
> 
> 
> 
> All sections entering in sequence from FF to pp and hold the ostinato in pp when the other sections follow. At the end all sections are doing a crescendo from pp to FF.
> 
> I've added a few accents with non spiccato samples, but 98% of the notes are just the spiccato articulation.
> 
> The mix is almost the default but with a little emphasis on the close microphones.
> 
> I've noticed that the Basses have a different transition point in their velocities from the rest of the sections. This is evident at 36" when an accent is off beat in the bass line whereas everywhere else it isn't using the same midi data.



Thank you very much! To me it sounds like it's more of a volume change than a dynamic change.


----------



## tim727

I'm just about to pull the trigger on CSS. I'm wondering though ... do you guys feel that it can work in a more "epic", in your face, kind of track?


----------



## eli0s

tim727 said:


> I'm just about to pull the trigger on CSS. I'm wondering though ... do you guys feel that it can work in a more "epic", in your face, kind of track?


I am sure you can, but I think their strength are the lyrical-melodic lines and their sound (if you don't mind being somewhat dark).


----------



## camelot

For me CSS is the easiest one of all string libs I own to change its tone. I think they are by default quite close to raw and unprocessed material. It is very easy to get more brightness into the character by adding an eq, exciter, tape saturator and/or compressor. A simple eq raise in the mid to high freqs is already sufficient and you do not need a special one, anyone would work.
I even made it sound like a divisi to my CS2 involving the mic choices.


----------



## Consona

camelot said:


> For me CSS is the easiest one of all string libs I own to change its tone. I think they are by default quite close to raw and unprocessed material. It is very easy to get more brightness into the character by adding an eq, exciter, tape saturator and/or compressor. A simple eq raise in the mid to high freqs is already sufficient and you do not need a special one, anyone would work.


Just post an example! 

So far from what I've heard, the high end frequencies are not there and all attempts to put them there sounded rather artificial to me compared to the libraries that already have a nice high end spectrum. But I'm open to change my mind the second I hear a good example that proves me wrong, opinion-wise.


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

Consona said:


> Just post an example!
> 
> So far from what I've heard, the high end frequencies are not there and all attempts to put them there sounded rather artificial to me compared to the libraries that already have a nice high end spectrum. But I'm open to change my mind the second I hear a good example that proves me wrong, opinion-wise.



So you already convinced yourself that you don't like the library, but then again still feel compelled to buy it because there's a deal on it, and someone's supposed to play the sale person for it.


----------



## Consona

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> So you already convinced yourself that you don't like the library, but then again still feel compelled to buy it because there's a deal on it, and someone's supposed to play the sale person for it.


----------



## eli0s

Consona said:


> Just post an example!
> 
> So far from what I've heard, the high end frequencies are not there and all attempts to put them there sounded rather artificial to me compared to the libraries that already have a nice high end spectrum. But I'm open to change my mind the second I hear a good example that proves me wrong, opinion-wise.



I personally find CSS the most convincing string library to date.

Yes, they are darker than most other libraries, but this doesn't bother me since I love this kind off sound.

In fact, about the time CSS came out I saw IP Man and loved the soundtrack. When I listen the CSS demos I recognized the same movie quality sound in the library and bought it immediately!

Of course, the library excels in their legato capability, but I also love the tone, it feels evolving in contrast to other libraries that feel static and synthy.

Just for the fun, here are a few bars from the IP Man soundtrack put together in a few minutes by ear. Just one audio output in Kontakt, no mixing whatsoever, default mic mix in CSS, with additional 1rst and 2nd violins from CSSS (for added volume in the melody) and a Low piano hits from NI Symphonic Percussion Series...


Had I invested more time the sound would have improve a lot, the key is to find the right legato transition and balance the volume. Never the less, the strings are serviceable imo, and as I said, I just put them together in a few minutes.


----------



## robgb




----------



## jonathanparham

robgb said:


>



Thanks. This had just popped up in my youtube feed. Thanks for posting the show.


----------



## Grilled Cheese

I feel like a bit of an idiot. So late to this party! I remember seeing an article about CSS strings in SOS magazine back in 2016 and I bypassed it. I remember reading that it was just 35 GB in size and thinking "that couldn't stack up against the kinds of big orchestral libraries I'm used to". What an error of judgement that was. 

An extra dollop of shame on me because I'm an Aussie too. 

It wasn't until a few weeks ago that I bothered to listen to some audio examples and watch some videos. Long story short - love the expressive sound, love the interface, love the sensible range of articulations. 

The upside of my ignorance is that I've saved myself the pain of waiting so long for the winds/brass/percussion which seem to be taking a LOT longer than planned. 

I've had a love/hate relationship with many orchestral libraries in the past and I've been looking for a fresh start. Was going to go down the Spitfire path, but now I think I'll wait to see how the rest of the Studio Series sounds. If it's anything like the Strings, I'm all in.


----------



## axb312

fgimian said:


> Here's my initial review after playing with the library for a good hour:
> 
> *Pros:*
> 
> Gorgeous, full tone. Very expressive.
> Can be very aggressive where required, the shorts really have bite and can hit hard.
> Con sordino emulation imho is actually really good! I was expecting way worse but it is pretty convincing and gives you the advantage of having sordino legato which similarly priced libraries don't offer.
> Some of the best legatos I have ever heard in a string library, WOW!!!
> Excellent set of articulations, nothing is really missing here
> Stunning harmonics, some of the nicest I've heard
> Cons
> 
> Some knobs on the UI are missing (vibrato crossfade, portamento volume .etc), the only way to adjust these is to assign them to a CC and then use that
> The transition from non-vibrato to vibrato isn't so subtle and there are no legato transitions on non-vibrato it seems
> I am finding that the modulation wheel at very low volumes is hard to control and jumpy, it goes from silent to present without transition and then similarly to the next volume level after which it settles, anyone else notice this?
> Some instruments (e.g. Lite Ensemble) load up with the mod wheel set to 0. I initially had no idea why I couldn't hear any sound. This behaviour is inconsistent throughout the instruments too.
> I believe I'm noticing a strange problem when vibrato is turned all the way down, lost notes? I need to investigate further.
> The default release value (when legato is turned off) is a bit too long. I think it should be around 83.
> I think that with a few more tweaks to the UI and a few more bug fixes, this library could really be one of THE standards for our community, and at its price point, it makes really great quality strings affordable to more people.
> 
> More to follow
> 
> Cheers
> Fotis



I don't believe any of these have been sorted out...?


----------



## ghandizilla

Little late of a question, but I've been searching throughout this topic and didn't find any mention of this problem. How do you manage to mix articulations individually (for example, set short notes a bit lower than longs)?


----------



## eli0s

ghandizilla said:


> Little late of a question, but I've been searching throughout this topic and didn't find any mention of this problem. How do you manage to mix articulations individually (for example, set short notes a bit lower than longs)?


Like you do in any other library I guess. Either load each articulation separately and adjust the volume as you see fit, or use CC11 to alter the volume in a single instrument instance.


----------



## ghandizilla

This is what I feared. Wanted to avoid the "load each articulation separately" thing (you can avoid it with Spitfire GUI for example). Thanks for you answer anyway


----------



## zvenx

You know you can use Kontakt snapshot to save your own articulations separately?....
hope that makes sense.
rsp


----------



## LondonMike

@ghandizilla 

It is possible to adjust a combination of velocity, CC1 and CC 11 on a note by note basis. 
Having worked with CSS and just recently CSSS (solo) which is amazing, I've found that it is possible to get the realism and expression I'm after but it involves one hell of a lot of tweaking!

With both this libs, you can't just play. But the end result, though it takes a while, is excellent IMO.


----------



## ghandizilla

I thought snapshots were intended to save a general configuration/tweaking of the library, isn't it? I might be wrong. The mic faders are the same for all articulations, I can't change one way for spics, one other way for trems. And I do have the experience of massaging CC11 to get it right, so I was wondering if I could spare some time by setting it upfront.


----------



## axb312

You can also use volume automation?


----------



## paularthur

Does this have the same vibrato automation control as CS2?


----------



## tack

paularthur said:


> Does this have the same vibrato automation control as CS2?


Yes, simple vibrato crossfade via CC2.


----------



## NathanTiemeyer

Anyone else feel like this on an almost daily basis?


----------



## eli0s

I sure do!!!


----------



## goalie composer

NathanTiemeyer said:


> Anyone else feel like this on an almost daily basis?



Well played, sir.


----------



## Zhao Shen

Every time this thread gets bumped I die a little on the inside.


----------



## ctsai89

NathanTiemeyer said:


> Anyone else feel like this on an almost daily basis?




I am feeling just like it. 

I wanna buy jaeger vocals but voice of empire from east west is coming in 7 days. I really need a solo voice library very very badly....


----------



## AoiichiNiiSan

I've had a few hundred dollars sitting in my paypal account, reserved for when CSB and CSW are released. One of the rare occasions I actually can't wait to empty it out.


----------



## jamwerks

You'd of thought there'd have already been 1 or 2 expansions on the full strings with additional bowing technics.


----------



## Grilled Cheese

NathanTiemeyer said:


> Anyone else feel like this on an almost daily basis?



Exactly! And every day that passes my finger reaches a little further to the right.

I haven't even bought the Strings yet! With the inclusion of solo strings they are about $1,000 Australian dollars, so perhaps not quite the bargain they appeared at first glance. I'm waiting to hear winds and brass and then I'll dive in boots and all.

Unless ... tick tock.


----------



## axb312

Which articulations are you guys looking for in CSS and CSSS? My list is :
- Non-Vib Legato
- Sul Pont
- Real Sordino(s)
- Flautando
- Sul Tasto
- Legato Runs


----------



## NoamL

For legato runs try the Marcato patches with the spiccato overlay turned off (keyswitch F#0 pressed lightly). They can play very fast scalar runs quite well.

The sordinos are good, not real but one of the more convincing emulations out there.


----------



## Hunter123

Hey not sure if anybody mentioned this but have any of you noticed this weird clicking in the Cello Staccatissimo/Spiccato samples? It almost sounds like your track is clipping? It was cutting through my mix and I'm definitely not clipping.


----------



## Tekkera

Hunter123 said:


> Hey not sure if anybody mentioned this but have any of you noticed this weird clicking in the Cello Staccatissimo/Spiccato samples? It almost sounds like your track is clipping? It was cutting through my mix and I'm definitely not clipping.


Post an example, pretty sure that's just watch happens when you smack your bow forcefully against such large/long strings, it tends to touch the fingerboard and make a clack.


----------



## Hunter123

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vykg6t4kwlirfrp/CSS Low Shorts_bip_11.mp3?dl=0

Hear the clicking, is that just normal? It sounds like clipping, there's two right at the start.


Tekkera said:


> Post an example, pretty sure that's just watch happens when you smack your bow forcefully against such large/long strings, it tends to touch the fingerboard and make a clack.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/vykg6t4kwlirfrp/CSS Low Shorts_bip_11.mp3?dl=0

Hear the clicking, is that just normal? It sounds like clipping, there's two right at the start. Seems to happen with the G note.


----------



## KEM

Does anyone know when the brass and winds will be released?


----------



## NoamL

Hunter123 said:


> https://www.dropbox.com/s/vykg6t4kwlirfrp/CSS Low Shorts_bip_11.mp3?dl=0
> 
> Hear the clicking, is that just normal? It sounds like clipping, there's two right at the start.
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/vykg6t4kwlirfrp/CSS Low Shorts_bip_11.mp3?dl=0
> 
> Hear the clicking, is that just normal? It sounds like clipping, there's two right at the start. Seems to happen with the G note.



Yep that is a bow hitting the string sound, not an audio click.

If you play forcefully enough (especially spiccato) the horsehair of the bow will bend as it comes in contact with the string, and the wooden part of your bow will hit the string providing a wooden "clack" sound. Especially common for cellos and basses.

The other sound that is not quite a click but more of a rasp (0:19), is again a common sound in spiccato playing, it comes from throwing the bow against the string so forcefully that the hair & rosin & bow do not have time to create a smooth start to the sound. Instead you get a raspy sound. This sound is caused by the static friction between the rosined-up bow hair and the string, in other words it's similar to the idea of pushing a door that's stuck in the frame.


----------



## Hunter123

NoamL said:


> Yep that is a bow hitting the string sound, not an audio click.
> 
> If you play forcefully enough (especially spiccato) the horsehair of the bow will bend as it comes in contact with the string, and the wooden part of your bow will hit the string providing a wooden "clack" sound. Especially common for cellos and basses.


+1 for realism with CSS!


----------



## Ihnoc

Thought I would post this for the main CSS thread too. I have put together a Kontakt multiscript that will compensate for the delay in different articulations. Requires you to have a DAW that can offset the midi playback (like Cubase) and to use Keyswitch CC. 

I hope you find it useful.
https://vi-control.net/community/th...the-same-start-time-and-other-features.70174/


----------



## Consona

How much dynamic layers do CCS short articulations have? Can they be quite soft?


----------



## aaronventure

Spiccato has p, mf, ff

Pizz, Staccato, Staccatissimo and SFZ have pp, mp, f, fff

Col Legno is pp, mp, f(or ff, not sure)

Bartok only has 2 layers: fff and a bit softer, I'd say f

You can often get away with switching between Spiccato and Staccatissimo, they're pretty similar, unless you're playing a very exposed ostinato. So you effectively have 7 dynamic layers.


----------



## Saxer

axb312 said:


> Which articulations are you guys looking for in CSS and CSSS? My list is :
> - Non-Vib Legato
> - Sul Pont
> - Real Sordino(s)
> - Flautando
> - Sul Tasto
> - Legato Runs


Mainly missing longs/legatos with half amount of the current vibrato.


----------



## N.Caffrey

Saxer said:


> Mainly missing longs/legatos with half amount of the current vibrato.


+1 on this. Also, let's not forget about our bread and butter articulations like Col Legno Trattos


----------



## hypnotize

Hi to everyone! I see, that the topic is no longer relevant, but I have some questions. I'm actively learning to cope with Cinematic Studio Strings. But can't to get a dense, holistic powerful strings sound. 
In the example below, I mixed separate sections with Ensemble patch, where duplicated all the parties.



I wanted to hear your opinion about the sound of the string part. And also an opinion about the dynamics.

Thanks.


----------



## Sid Francis

For me its beautiful, no need to change anything. Congrats. Perhaps....take out some of 2-5 khz of the violins at the end....a bit piercing. But the arrangement? I would be proud if I could arrange this way.


----------



## synthnut1

There was a nice slow build ....As Sid mentioned, tame the high end towards the end of this piece....Nice job !!......Jim


----------



## hypnotize

Sid Francis said:


> For me its beautiful, no need to change anything. Congrats. Perhaps....take out some of 2-5 khz of the violins at the end....a bit piercing. But the arrangement? I would be proud if I could arrange this way.


Thank you, Sid. I'm still working on the arrangement. Strings will be the base.



synthnut1 said:


> There was a nice slow build ....As Sid mentioned, tame the high end towards the end of this piece....Nice job !!......Jim


Thanks, I will work more detail higher frequencies.


----------



## Casiquire

hypnotize said:


> Hi to everyone! I see, that the topic is no longer relevant, but I have some questions. I'm actively learning to cope with Cinematic Studio Strings. But can't to get a dense, holistic powerful strings sound.
> In the example below, I mixed separate sections with Ensemble patch, where duplicated all the parties.
> 
> 
> 
> I wanted to hear your opinion about the sound of the string part. And also an opinion about the dynamics.
> 
> Thanks.




That's beautiful!


----------



## Scamper

Now with the time you guys spent with CSS, is the dynamic range not an issue for you?

As NoamL said before...


NoamL said:


> dynamic range is really quite narrow. I mean if LASS is 0% to 100%, and Mural is 0% to 90%, CSS might be* 40% to 85%*. That's on the shorts. The longs have even less dynamic range, as demonstrated above.



Next to the legato delay, the dynamic range is keeping me the most from getting CSS so far.

I'm not sure whether to get CSS or SSS now with the current discount. Since my string libraries are SCS and some Albion ensembles, I'd like to get a larger string section and in part prefer the sound of SSS, especially in the low strings, but then again CSS has it's own benefits.
Anymore general opinions on that?


----------



## markleake

Scamper said:


> I'm not sure whether to get CSS or SSS now with the current discount. Since my string libraries are SCS and some Albion ensembles, I'd like to get a larger string section and in part prefer the sound of SSS, especially in the low strings, but then again CSS has it's own benefits.
> Anymore general opinions on that?


Both are great libraries. CSS is easier to get an emotional tone out of it, especially due to the strong vibrato, but that can also be a limiting factor sometimes. CSS is a smaller sized orchestra than SSS, so is more detailed, while SSS has much more blur to the sound and obviously less detail due to a lot more players. SSS has a lot more articulations, some very useful such as the real sordinos, half sordinos, flaut, etc. The performance legato patches in SSS are very good. The shorts in SSS are not going to get you anything near the tightness of the CSS shorts, and the CSS shorts have more useful variety.

The lower sections in SSS are great yes, the hall gives them such a powerful sound.


----------



## hypnotize

Scamper said:


> Now with the time you guys spent with CSS, is the dynamic range not an issue for you?
> 
> As NoamL said before...
> 
> 
> Next to the legato delay, the dynamic range is keeping me the most from getting CSS so far.
> 
> I'm not sure whether to get CSS or SSS now with the current discount. Since my string libraries are SCS and some Albion ensembles, I'd like to get a larger string section and in part prefer the sound of SSS, especially in the low strings, but then again CSS has it's own benefits.
> Anymore general opinions on that?



The dynamic range is really not that big. But there can not be one universal library for all styles and trends. CSS is perfect for more lyrical compositions. CSS is decidedly geared towards melody and harmony. If you’re after spooky evolving clusters, swoops, sinister mutterings or other aleatoric effects, you’ll have to look elsewhere. If you need more epic or dynamic sound, you need to pump up the arrangement with many other instruments to strongly support the string section.


----------



## muk

Scamper said:


> Now with the time you guys spent with CSS, is the dynamic range not an issue for you?



It's not an issue for me. While the dynamic range is not as large as in other libraries, CSS still sufficently captures the timbral differences between pianissimo and fortissimo (it has four dynamic layers if I'm not mistaken). To me that is more important, because you can increase the dynamic range using the technique detailed here:

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/editing-the-dynamic-range-of-a-sample-library.50310/

After a bit of experimentation I found a setting that brings a dynamic range I like and makes the library respond to the modwheel in a fashion that is intuitive for me.


----------



## Scamper

markleake said:


> SSS has a lot more articulations, some very useful such as the real sordinos, half sordinos, flaut, etc.


This seems to be the major value of SSS for others as well, but while it's great to have that variety, I only need standard techniques at the moment.



muk said:


> While the dynamic range is not as large as in other libraries, CSS still sufficently captures the timbral differences between pianissimo and fortissimo (it has four dynamic layers if I'm not mistaken). To me that is more important, because you can increase the dynamic range using the technique detailed here


Right, the dynamic range in timbre is also more important to me. So, if that's there, it seems like less of an issue.

For me, it's the decision between the general sound and legato playability of SSS or the musicality, features like different shorts/measure trems and also price of CSS.


----------



## NoamL

Sry for late reply, quite busy - dynamic range is fine. The real top end is in the Marcato sustain patches (as is the case as well with CSB). I didn't realize that when I made that post several years ago.

Regarding CSS vs SSS, I put them together as my basic orchestral strings template. Actually CSS + CSSS + Mural Volume 1; Mural is mixed so as to provide room and depth while CSS+CSSS provide the foreground detail.


----------



## Scamper

Yeah, that sounds like a nice combo. Good to hear about the marcato patch.

Considering CSS and SSS, I probably need to consider the RAM it eats. Not sure, how much headroom I have left.
If CSB and SCS are anything to go by, Spitfire can be quite a bit leaner, if I just wanted a simple legato for example, since CSB/CSS has all the good stuff in the legatos.


----------



## markleake

Actually, I often do the same as what @NoamL does: double SSS and CSS. And occassionally CSSS too. I don't script it as Noam does, just manually tweak, but it still works a treat. You get that wonderful full sound of SSS with the hall, and the detail and smooth legato of CSS.

I've never had much trouble with the dynamic range of CSS, it just works. It's more the lack of those other articulations I mention that you get with SSS or SCS which limits CSS, for my uses anyway. You don't get that same variety of sounds as with the Spitfire libraries, especially the softer tones in the longs that Spitfire do so well.

CSS is pretty much always my recommendation for a good base string library. It's so easy to get great results with it. CS2 is another option also.


----------



## Scamper

With your help and all the input I could find, I went for CSS. I can probably justify this more than SSS being "just" a bigger SCS, that I have.
I would think that even SCS (and maybe Albion 1/ONE) has enough power in the low strings to support CSS and a wealth of articulations, if needed. Hopefully, the legato delay won't be too much of a bother, but in the end, the musicality to gain should be worth it.


----------



## miguel88

would you recommend get Hollywood Strings gold to blend with CSS to make the sound bigger, or as a second library, for 106$ is a good deal CS2 is a good option but is more expensive,


----------



## JohnBMears

miguel88 said:


> would you recommend get Hollywood Strings gold to blend with CSS to make the sound bigger, or as a second library, for 106$ is a good deal CS2 is a good option but is more expensive,



For $106 HWS Gold is just an amazing buy. Having only one mic position will mean that you'll need to adjust CSS to fit (HWS won't be as shape-able as Diamond). How much is Diamond? Besides adding size and sheen (to an otherwise dark sound of CSS) the shorts of HWS represent IMO the 'other side of the coin' in regards to CSS shorts. The shorts of CSS are so consistently punchy and accurate, I feel they sometimes can be more "humanized" by a slightly looser short (like HWS has). @jeremiahpena has mentioned that he has found Soaring Strings to be a great add-on to CSS, but there are no shorts in that library. I'd be interested to know his technique of blending Soaring Strings with CSS!


----------



## miguel88

JohnBMears said:


> For $106 HWS Gold is just an amazing buy. Having only one mic position will mean that you'll need to adjust CSS to fit (HWS won't be as shape-able as Diamond). How much is Diamond? Besides adding size and sheen (to an otherwise dark sound of CSS) the shorts of HWS represent IMO the 'other side of the coin' in regards to CSS shorts. The shorts of CSS are so consistently punchy and accurate, I feel they sometimes can be more "humanized" by a slightly looser short (like HWS has). @jeremiahpena has mentioned that he has found Soaring Strings to be a great add-on to CSS, but there are no shorts in that library. I'd be interested to know his technique of blending Soaring Strings with CSS!


the diamond version is 159 but you cant download because you have to receive by HDD which makes annoying


----------



## Kony

miguel88 said:


> would you recommend get Hollywood Strings gold to blend with CSS to make the sound bigger, or as a second library, for 106$ is a good deal CS2 is a good option but is more expensive,


If you have CSS, you will get a discount for CS2 - and it will blend better with CSS plus it's a larger library (ie the sections are larger).


----------



## hypnotize

Kony said:


> If you have CSS, you will get a discount for CS2 - and it will blend better with CSS plus it's a larger library (ie the sections are larger).


Really it's will be blend better CS2 with CSS? For me its sounds very similar.


----------



## Kony

hypnotize said:


> Really it's will be blend better CS2 with CSS? For me its sounds very similar.


I only have CS2 but I would have thought it would blend well since it's the same developer - most comparisons I see indicate CS2 is darker but has larger sections and bigger sound.


----------



## hypnotize

Kony said:


> I only have CS2 but I would have thought it would blend well since it's the same developer - most comparisons I see indicate CS2 is darker but has larger sections and bigger sound.


I was mixing, to be honest, I didn’t get something new for the sound.


----------



## SirKen

Kony said:


> If you have CSS, you will get a discount for CS2 - and it will blend better with CSS plus it's a larger library (ie the sections are larger).



I thought it was the other way around. CS2 would get you a discount for CSS.


----------



## Kony

SirKen said:


> I thought it was the other way around. CS2 would get you a discount for CSS.



I think the discount applies for any of their libraries:



Alex W said:


> "Yes there would be a discount for CSS if you bought CS2 today"
> 
> "... once you purchase any product (eg CS2) then you will receive a discount off the next product (eg CSS)"
> 
> "once you have purchased any of the libraries at full price you will be entitled to a discount on subsequent purchases."


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Kony said:


> I think the discount applies for any of their libraries:


My understanding is that CS2 gives a discount on CSS, but not the other way around. EDIT: The discount works both ways.


miguel88 said:


> the diamond version is 159 but you cant download because you have to receive by HDD which makes annoying


Check Best Service. I think you can download from them.


JohnBMears said:


> @jeremiahpena has mentioned that he has found Soaring Strings to be a great add-on to CSS, but there are no shorts in that library.


I believe Adventure Strings were meant to be used with Soaring Strings, thus giving an option for shorts.


----------



## Kony

Land of Missing Parts said:


> My understanding is that CS2 gives a discount on CSS, but not the other way around.



I've just quoted Alex W saying that the discount applies to any of their libraries....

Edit: here is the thread for reference

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/cinematic-studio-solo-strings.64797/page-3#post-4127550


----------



## dpasdernick

miguel88 said:


> the diamond version is 159 but you cant download because you have to receive by HDD which makes annoying




Sorry for the OT but where are you seeing Hollywood Diamond Edition at $159? Is that US dollars?

Edit:

My bad. I see you were just talking about the strings and not the entire library.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Kony said:


> I've just quoted Alex W saying that the discount applies to any of their libraries....
> 
> Edit: here is the thread for reference
> 
> https://vi-control.net/community/threads/cinematic-studio-solo-strings.64797/page-3#post-4127550


Ah, thanks. Maybe I'm wrong then, I was basing my answer off of this thread.

EDIT: I can confirm that @Kony is correct. I emailed Alex and he said a CSS owner can buy CS2 at a discount.


----------



## Scamper

For most here, the novelty of CSS is probably gone, but since I got it now, I had a little take at Anakin's Theme to try it out.
The smoothness of the legatos is quite something and it's even better than I thought. The basses were beefed up with some SCS though.


----------



## hypnotize

Scamper said:


> For most here, the novelty of CSS is probably gone, but since I got it now, I had a little take at Anakin's Theme to try it out.
> The smoothness of the legatos is quite something and it's even better than I thought. The basses were beefed up with some SCS though.



It sounds great, soft and smooth. Pleasant dynamics.


----------



## Consona

Kony said:


> I only have CS2 but I would have thought it would blend well since it's the same developer - most comparisons I see indicate CS2 is darker but has larger sections and bigger sound.


CS2 is not darker than CSS.


----------



## ionian

Consona said:


> CS2 is not darker than CSS.



I actually thought it was the opposite - I thought CSS was darker than CS2 but that's only based on demos and the limited use at a friend's studio who owns it. I own CSS but I would buy CS2 in an instant - such a great sounding library. But the thing that holds me back still is lack of portamento. At this point, I realize Alex holding recording sessions just to institute that is not gonna happen as it's too much of an expense for such a little thing but really, I'd take scripted portamento at least so I'm holding out hope that maybe one day he'll revisit the scripting with all the knowledge he's gained since. 

CS2 is a really good sound library and very, very playable (and I say that from the perspective of someone who's more of a player because I've discovered that a lot of sample libraries aren't really that 'play' friendly, in general).


----------



## Benjamin Duk

How well balanced is the bass end in Cinematic Studio Strings? If you put all sections together on default settings. Is it a bit bass heavy? Should I turn down the Basses and Cello?


----------



## Scamper

Benjamin Duk said:


> How well balanced is the bass end in Cinematic Studio Strings? If you put all sections together on default settings. Is it a bit bass heavy? Should I turn down the Basses and Cello?



I think the low end is pretty weak in CSS. The basses are still there, but they're not very prominent and more neutral. They still have a bite to them, but not the powerful low end of other libraries with a big room like Spitfire. The cellos are fine, I think. So, I wouldn't turn them down.


----------



## Benjamin Duk

Scamper said:


> I think the low end is pretty weak in CSS. The basses are still there, but they're not very prominent and more neutral. They still have a bite to them, but not the powerful low end of other libraries with a big room like Spitfire. The cellos are fine, I think. So, I wouldn't turn them down.



That's interesting. I actually find the basses a bit too much in volume for a more live sound setup.


----------



## Symfoniq

Scamper said:


> For most here, the novelty of CSS is probably gone, but since I got it now, I had a little take at Anakin's Theme to try it out.
> The smoothness of the legatos is quite something and it's even better than I thought. The basses were beefed up with some SCS though.




This is lovely. Very nice work.

And the novelty of CSS will never wear off for me, unless something comes along that sounds better while having comparable ease of use. Hasn't happened yet, IMO. It's a tall order.


----------



## hypnotize

Scamper said:


> I think the low end is pretty weak in CSS. The basses are still there, but they're not very prominent and more neutral. They still have a bite to them, but not the powerful low end of other libraries with a big room like Spitfire. The cellos are fine, I think. So, I wouldn't turn them down.


I don't like bass in CSS, there is some kind of buzzing, haven't a dense low component.


----------



## Scamper

Benjamin Duk said:


> That's interesting. I actually find the basses a bit too much in volume for a more live sound setup.



Regarding my track or other demos? I have layered the basses with Spitfire Chamber Strings Basses though, because I prefer it to just CSS. It might have been a bit much, but without it, most of the low bass would be gone, especially in the pizzes.


----------



## Kony

Consona said:


> CS2 is not darker than CSS.


Happy to be wrong about this - but was only making that observation based on a comment by JXL in one of his videos


----------



## Benjamin Duk

Scamper said:


> Regarding my track or other demos? I have layered the basses with Spitfire Chamber Strings Basses though, because I prefer it to just CSS. It might have been a bit much, but without it, most of the low bass would be gone, especially in the pizzes.



Oh I just meant from the library itself. I guess what I'm struggling with is to know how much bass from the Double Bass there should be because if you listen to some scores the bass is lower than others so wondering how you determine the levels for the bass. 

So for example if we use CSS at default levels and you use the same midi file for each section of the string section but lower the octaves from Violins 1 all the way down to Basses and put CC1 to max. I find that the basses are louder then the higher string section. If we look at the levels all the sections seem to be sitting at a similar db level but basses are a few db's higher, so I was wondering if that's a modern mix thing or if it really should be that loud compared to the others.

What are your methods to setting the correct amount of bass level?


----------



## markleake

Benjamin Duk said:


> What are your methods to setting the correct amount of bass level?


Whatever sounds good.


----------



## markleake

Kony said:


> Happy to be wrong about this - but was only making that observation based on a comment by JXL in one of his videos


CSS has a darker tone for sure compared to CS2.

I sometimes EQ CSS to bring up the higher end when it is noticeably sounding different to the other instruments. I don't need to EQ CS2 in the same way.

I know JXL does EQ CS2 a bit (he says in one of his videos), so he may brighten it a bit anyway, as that is a common thing to do with strings. He doesn't use CSS as far as I've seen.


----------



## Scamper

Benjamin Duk said:


> What are your methods to setting the correct amount of bass level?



I'm not that experienced with it, but I also adjust it to make it sound like orchestral recordings, that I like. The basses are generally more powerful than any other section, so I think it's normal, if the levels are a bit higher.
With most libraries, I would think the levels at certain dynamics mostly represent the real sound of this instrument relative to the other sections with the given section size and within that room and recording setup, so I just use them normally with CC1 and velocities until I need to adjust.

For libraries like CSS, where the bass within that room is a bit weaker, I prefer to enhance it a bit.
On the other hand Spitfire Chamber Strings has a section size of 4/3/3/3/3, which should be pretty unbalanced. Having 3 basses, the "Principles of Orchestration" by Rimsky-Korsakov recommends a section size of 8/6/4/3/3. Being recorded in a big room, the basses are really powerful there and so I play them quieter or level them down a bit, again to fit the orchestral sound of other recordings.


----------



## Bluemount Score

The smooth Legato of CSS sure is great and still a leader in its field. Truly beautiful! 

But does it also offer POWER LEGATO??


----------



## Benjamin Duk

Scamper said:


> I'm not that experienced with it, but I also adjust it to make it sound like orchestral recordings, that I like. The basses are generally more powerful than any other section, so I think it's normal, if the levels are a bit higher.
> With most libraries, I would think the levels at certain dynamics mostly represent the real sound of this instrument relative to the other sections with the given section size and within that room and recording setup, so I just use them normally with CC1 and velocities until I need to adjust.
> 
> For libraries like CSS, where the bass within that room is a bit weaker, I prefer to enhance it a bit.
> On the other hand Spitfire Chamber Strings has a section size of 4/3/3/3/3, which should be pretty unbalanced. Having 3 basses, the "Principles of Orchestration" by Rimsky-Korsakov recommends a section size of 8/6/4/3/3. Being recorded in a big room, the basses are really powerful there and so I play them quieter of level them down a bit, again to fit the orchestral sound of other recordings.



Thanks for your insight on this. I'll take note of more recordings and their bass levels to get the bass more in line with other recordings.


----------



## constaneum

Scamper said:


> I think the low end is pretty weak in CSS. The basses are still there, but they're not very prominent and more neutral. They still have a bite to them, but not the powerful low end of other libraries with a big room like Spitfire. The cellos are fine, I think. So, I wouldn't turn them down.



For the bass, I tend to cut off the high freq.


----------



## constaneum

Meetyhtan said:


> The smooth Legato of CSS sure is great and still a leader in its field. Truly beautiful!
> 
> But does it also offer POWER LEGATO??



What do you mean by POWER LEGATO ?


----------



## jbuhler

constaneum said:


> What do you mean by POWER LEGATO ?


POWER LEGATO is so December 2018.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

constaneum said:


> What do you mean by POWER LEGATO ?


its an articulation naming from metropolis ark 4.

which mostly just meant edgy exaggerated transitions.(or clumsy little ghost notes)


----------



## Casiquire

constaneum said:


> What do you mean by POWER LEGATO ?



WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN

It's the new revolution in legato that happened. Look around you. Doesn't everything look so different now?


----------



## Bluemount Score

It was meant to be a joke, but either its outdated or not famous enough :D (maybe both)


----------



## constaneum

Casiquire said:


> WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN
> 
> It's the new revolution in legato that happened. Look around you. Doesn't everything look so different now?



Hahahhaha. I've not been following lots of things lately, especially libraries like metropolis ask series and etc. Ahhahah


----------



## constaneum

Guess I better go look back. Previously was like what ? Performance legato ? I wonder how powerful can powerful legato be compared to performance legato.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

constaneum said:


> Guess I better go look back. Previously was like what ? Performance legato ? I wonder how powerful can powerful legato be compared to performance legato.



I'd rather power legato, all jokes aside XD

I honestly ended up using the regular legato patches most of the time(although I would probably do the same with Met Ark 4 too, but that's because POWER LEGATO isn't really a replacement for regular legato)

I do think it's funny though, they never really advertised power legato as some sort of game changer or next gen, people just saw the name of the articulation and ran with it  poor OT.


----------



## jbuhler

ProfoundSilence said:


> I do think it's funny though, they never really advertised power legato as some sort of game changer or next gen, people just saw the name of the articulation and ran with it  poor OT.


That’s what happens when all you release about a library is its articulation list. If they’d released several demos and a walkthrough when they announced the library I doubt POWER LEGATO would have turned into the running gag it did.


----------



## oxo

but keep in mind, a power legato is only the real thing if it is a deep sampling power legato with perfect imperfection.


----------



## Casiquire

constaneum said:


> Hahahhaha. I've not been following lots of things lately, especially libraries like metropolis ask series and etc. Ahhahah



No worries, I was behind the curve too. I thought someone just made up "power legato" and everyone ran with it. To this day I still barely get what "Ark" is trying to do lmao.


----------



## constaneum

ahhaha. so far, i think spitfire audio did a really great job on performance legato. I wonder whether power legato would be something similar? Just that the naming is different.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

constaneum said:


> ahhaha. so far, i think spitfire audio did a really great job on performance legato. I wonder whether power legato would be something similar? Just that the naming is different.


no, its nothing like performance legato. 

its not even like any legato, it's just a bit on the wild side, exaggerated/bumpy transitions. 

performance legato is just "less lazy" programming, more akin to what MOST companies use. 

berlin strings legato patches have variable sustain patches(which effects the note attack) based on velocity, variable transitions based on time between notes, and NV-VB(sometimes 2 vibratos)

So berlin strings regular legato is already "performance legato"

but ark 4 POWER LEGATO is not a replacement for a legato patch(which those instruments have included regular legato patches for... legato)

but yes, having ark 4 for a little now, it's definitely an identity crisis - although I'm still glad I have it, I picked it up to re-inforce my other OT libraries, not a one stop for POWER LEGATO

I still wish I could get CSS legato scripting on BS... CSS is still THE king of rebowed legato


----------



## ProfoundSilence

jbuhler said:


> If they’d released several demos and a walkthrough when they announced the library I doubt POWER LEGATO would have turned into the running gag it did.



Idk why we didn't start calling all non "advanced legato", "primitive legato", after CSS...

Yeah, I like lass with it's primitive legato


----------



## constaneum

i actually think spitfire audio's performance legato really works great based on the walkthrough.


----------



## hypnotize

Hello colleagues! I need to make the sound of the strings under the vintage 70-s. I have CSS, and don’t want to use other libraries. Tried Big Fish Audio - Vintage Strings and didn’t like it, there is no good legato and other shortcomings.
What advise in processing CSS? Saturation? Light overdrive?


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## Batrawi

hypnotize said:


> Hello colleagues! I need to make the sound of the strings under the vintage 70-s. I have CSS, and don’t want to use other libraries. Tried Big Fish Audio - Vintage Strings and didn’t like it, there is no good legato and other shortcomings.
> What advise in processing CSS? Saturation? Light overdrive?


hmmm...probably use the close mics only and apply a bit of Hi-pass to remove some of the low/bassy frequencies


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## Loïc D

I’d try Tape saturation and both ends EQing to reduce the bandwidth.
Maybe izotope Vinyl (free) could be helpful.
70’s strings sound is also a lot about the writing/arrangement.


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## Igor Sena

midiman said:


> In case anyone is interested here is a way to streamline working with CSS and the latency of the diferent types of legato:
> Selected a group of notes that you want to have quantised. Go to midi menu, then select the logical editor. Then change the values as you see in my snapshot. Then Apply. then save as a preset and give it a name you can recognize (still in the logical editor window). Once you save it as a preset, it will show in on the key commands, inside the folder *process logical preset, *then you select and assign a key command to it. So in the future when you selected notes on the key editor, you just need to press the key command you assigned and the selected notes will move back 333ms. Repeat the process for the different legato speeds and assign a different key command for each.This speeds up a lot the workflow with CSS, as you can now quantize and then quickly move the notes where they need to be in order to be on time. Hope this helps.




Hello, there 

Do you happen to know of any plug-in who does this same thing for usage in other DAW?

Best regards.


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## midiman

Igor Sena said:


> Hello, there
> 
> Do you happen to know of any plug-in who does this same thing for usage in other DAW?
> 
> Best regards.



Hello Igor. I am sorry, I don't know of a plug in that does this. But I believe there must be a similar thing you could do in other DAWs. Maybe someone else in the forum knows...


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## Igor Sena

midiman said:


> Hello Igor. I am sorry, I don't know of a plug in that does this. But I believe there must be a similar think you could do in other DAW. Maybe someone else in the forum knows...



Hi =)

I have asked in my DAW´s respective forum but its been weeks and no answer yet. Can´t find much on the web, besides voxengo delay, etc but those don´t do the job.

Thank you very much anyway. Best regards.


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## Ha'Vi

Igor Sena said:


> Hello, there
> 
> Do you happen to know of any plug-in who does this same thing for usage in other DAW?
> 
> Best regards.



Have you tried Ihnoc's Kontakt script? 

https://vi-control.net/community/th...-features-1-5-now-supports-keyswitches.70174/

Took a little while for me to get it set up correctly, but now I can just quantize everything and it handles all of the legato offset for me whilst keeping all my midi looking nice and tidy. So long as your DAW lets you put in a -300ms negative track offset, then it should work.


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## fiction

Do you guys ever max cc1 with CSS? I've been using it for everything lately and I'm always in the 5-60 range. I can't really explain why... Don't know if it's my gain staging or maybe I'm not too fond of the timbre at higher dynamics.


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## Sid Francis

I am working in cubase and even made a midi transform script that cuts the upper 20% of the dynamic and uses the whole modwheel range only for values of 1-95. And I still rarely go far over the mid position... I noticed that the biggest differences between what I hear in romantic films and on the other hand in my string libs is, that the strings in these films hardly play over mp to maintain a silky sound. I prefer having less dynamic range but a nicer tone without ever being tempted "to go to eleven"


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## constaneum

fiction said:


> Do you guys ever max cc1 with CSS? I've been using it for everything lately and I'm always in the 5-60 range. I can't really explain why... Don't know if it's my gain staging or maybe I'm not too fond of the timbre at higher dynamics.



not always the case but yea....i ever do that.


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## fiction

Glad to know I’m not alone, was starting to think I could have something messed up in my gain staging. I do find that I need to boost the gain on some libraries in order to play them at lower dynamics and still achieve a decent level in the final mix. The drawback is that the noise floor of some libraries is raised considerably but depending on the style of the track I actually like it.


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## Tino Danielzik

Hello everyone! 

I am someone who really likes to work with separate articulations in a template instead of using Keyswitches or something else. Now, of course I can load and unload each articulation in CSS and have them all separated that way, but I noticed with all these instances of CSS loaded it eats up a lot of CPU power. Is that because of all the scripting that is going on in the background? Would it work smoother if they would program individual patches? 

And another thing, could we PLEASE get just Keyswitches (or individual patches) for HS/WS Trills, so that I am able to play trill chords in real time with one hand. Pressing two keys at once doesn't really work for me. It is also not possible to play e.g. C-D WS and D-E WS trills at the same time, because you already press the note D for the C-D WS trill. The current trills programming doesn't really work for me, it really slows down the worklflow and makes the handling unnecessary complicated. 

So, would love to have individual patches for each articulation in order to save CPU power and change the trills to keyswitch and/or individual patches please in order to make it possible that I can play trill chords in the same way I can play chords in all the other patches. Would be great to have these options in a little update. 


Thanks in advance!


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## Waywyn

Tino Danielzik said:


> Hello everyone!
> 
> I am someone who really likes to work with separate articulations in a template instead of using Keyswitches or something else. Now, of course I can load and unload each articulation in CSS and have them all separated that way, but I noticed with all these instances of CSS loaded it eats up a lot of CPU power. Is that because of all the scripting that is going on in the background? Would it work smoother if they would program individual patches?
> 
> And another thing, could we PLEASE get just Keyswitches (or individual patches) for HS/WS Trills, so that I am able to play trill chords in real time with one hand. Pressing two keys at once doesn't really work for me. It is also not possible to play e.g. C-D WS and D-E WS trills at the same time, because you already press the note D for the C-D WS trill. The current trills programming doesn't really work for me, it really slows down the worklflow and makes the handling unnecessary complicated.
> 
> So, would love to have individual patches for each articulation in order to save CPU power and change the trills to keyswitch and/or individual patches please in order to make it possible that I can play trill chords in the same way I can play chords in all the other patches. Would be great to have these options in a little update.
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance!



Hold Alt and left-click the keyswitches/sections you don't want to be loaded. With this you can only load sustain instances and everything else unloaded.


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## Tino Danielzik

Waywyn said:


> Hold Alt and left-click the keyswitches/sections you don't want to be loaded. With this you can only load sustain instances and everything else unloaded.



Hi Alex, yeah, I know and it does work, but all these instances of CSS eat up a lot of my CPU power.
Example: I load an instance of CSS and unload everything except the Staccato. Then I load another instance of CSS and unload everything again except the tremolos and so on.... Yes, that way I get individual articulations, but it's the instance of CSS itself that takes a lot of CPU power, not the loaded articulation. I am also not talking about RAM!! I really mean the CPU processor.

I think that is due to the fact that an instance of CSS has a lot of scripting going on in the background. If they would program individual instances for each articulation, like LASS for example, it would be way more CPU friendly. I could be wrong, but it really feels like individual programed articulation patches wouldn't generate so much CPU workload.


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## Waywyn

Tino Danielzik said:


> Hi Alex, yeah, I know and it does work, but all these instances of CSS eat up a lot of my CPU power.
> Example: I load an instance of CSS and unload everything except the Staccato. Then I load another instance of CSS and unload everything again except the tremolos and so on.... Yes, that way I get individual articulations, but it's the instance of CSS itself that takes a lot of CPU power, not the loaded articulation. I am also not talking about RAM!! I really mean the CPU processor.
> 
> I think that is due to the fact that an instance of CSS has a lot of scripting going on in the background. If they would program individual instances for each articulation, like LASS for example, it would be way more CPU friendly. I could be wrong, but it really feels like individual programed articulation patches wouldn't generate so much CPU workload.



Tino, sorry, I was probably reading a bit too fast 
Yes, I see, it makes sense that the CPU power is always the same because the full scripting is needed, disregarding what articulations you mute or unload.

How about deactivating the tracks you don't need? I mean, it is highly unlikely that you always need every articulation of every instrument, no?


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## Tino Danielzik

Waywyn said:


> Tino, sorry, I was probably reading a bit too fast
> Yes, I see, it makes sense that the CPU power is always the same because the full scripting is needed, disregarding what articulations you mute or unload.
> 
> How about deactivating the tracks you don't need? I mean, it is highly unlikely that you always need every articulation of every instrument, no?



No problem.  Yeah, that is something I do occasionally, but I HATE that! :D Really, I don't wanna use any kind of workarounds if it could be as simple as just some individual patches. I am happy to pay for such an update if it takes a lot of time to program these patches, no problem with that, but to have that option would make my life and probably the life of some other people so much easier.

But thank you very much for confirming my guess that it's due to the scripting that all these instances indeed eat up a lot of CPU, much appreciated!


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## Waywyn

Tino Danielzik said:


> No problem. :D Yeah, that is something I do occasionally, but I HATE that! :D Really, I don't wanna use any kind of workarounds if it could be as simple as just some individual patches. I am happy to pay for such an update if it takes a lot of time to program these patches, no problem with that, but to have that option would make my life and probably the life of some other people so much easier.
> 
> But thank you very much for confirming my guess that it's due to the scripting that all these instances indeed eat up a lot of CPU, much appreciated!



I hear ya, may I ask what CPU you have? I am on an 7-year-old 6core 3andsomethingGhz and I never experienced that CSS is eating that much CPU ...


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## Tino Danielzik

Waywyn said:


> I hear ya, may I ask what CPU you have? I am on an 7-year-old 6core 3andsomethingGhz and I never experienced that CSS is eating that much CPU ...



I use a Mac Pro 2009, 2x 2,93 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon, 32 GB Ram, 4x 1 TB standard HDD 7.200rpm.

I use multiple instances of CSS, since there are no divisi patches I added some extra instances to have Violins A and B, Violas A and B... 10 instances in total in one template. I just wanna have full control and write my divisi sections individually. Everything works perfectly fine. Of course I have a lot of other stuff going on (Brass, Woods, Perc..) and no problems at all. But if I really want to load individual articulations for CSS, the system is at its max and barely usable.


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## nickhmusic

Admittedly, I've only had it for a few hours, but i'm already finding CSS and the legato transitions inspiring for writing. Here's a small snippet of 1st, 2nd, violas, cellos and basses with a bit of Lexicon reverb on the top. I've tried to avoid obsessing about the delay and just manually moving things around to fit naturally.


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## mojamusic

nickhmusic said:


> Admittedly, I've only had it for a few hours, but i'm already finding CSS and the legato transitions inspiring for writing. Here's a small snippet of 1st, 2nd, violas, cellos and basses with a bit of Lexicon reverb on the top. I've tried to avoid obsessing about the delay and just manually moving things around to fit naturally.



Great first try!!! Sounds fantastic. Can't wait to hear what else you do


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## Igor Sena

nickhmusic said:


> Admittedly, I've only had it for a few hours, but i'm already finding CSS and the legato transitions inspiring for writing. Here's a small snippet of 1st, 2nd, violas, cellos and basses with a bit of Lexicon reverb on the top. I've tried to avoid obsessing about the delay and just manually moving things around to fit naturally.



Really nice, Nick.

May i ask what type of hall/chamber and settings you used?


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## Bluemount Score

Hanu_H said:


> Also rest of the orchestra coming this year, can't wait.


This didn't age well!

Nice first attempt @nickhmusic


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## nickhmusic

Igor Sena said:


> Really nice, Nick.
> 
> May i ask what type of hall/chamber and settings you used?


Sure. Lol - it's going to look like a lot now that I said "with a bit of Lexicon reverb" but did a few other tweaks too, just by ear. Some corrective EQ on each channel, mainly boosting high end and taking out any nasty hi mids and low-mid fluff. Some low cuts on the violas down to the basses, but not a ton. I also flipped the stereo image on the 2nd violins as I quite like them to be on the right a bit more. Tried the UAD Fairchild on the Main Strings Bus (have a Strings Long, Strings Short going to a Main Strings Bus) - and the Tape plugin which sounded better on than off. Might have to attach the rest to another post. Cheers!


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## nickhmusic

Rest of the screengrabs.


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## Igor Sena

nickhmusic said:


> Sure. Lol - it's going to look like a lot now that I said "with a bit of Lexicon reverb" but did a few other tweaks too, just by ear. Some corrective EQ on each channel, mainly boosting high end and taking out any nasty hi mids and low-mid fluff. Some low cuts on the violas down to the basses, but not a ton. I also flipped the stereo image on the 2nd violins as I quite like them to be on the right a bit more. Tried the UAD Fairchild on the Main Strings Bus (have a Strings Long, Strings Short going to a Main Strings Bus) - and the Tape plugin which sounded better on than off. Might have to attach the rest to another post. Cheers!


Thank you very much for sharing =)

Haha! I also thought you had done something in terms of EQ because they did not sound like they do out of the box (although not hugely different, they had a nicer sound overall) but because you said "with a bit of Lexicon" i thought it was be due to the fact that my ears were tired.

The biggest problem with me in CSS always seems to be the hiss. I don´t know if it´s the mics, noise floor or what it is but i can never fully get rid of it without making it sound bad and dead. I also hear a bit of that hiss/noise it in your example. Not a critique on your mixing of course, since that was just an example and probably a rough sketch; but you managed to do a better job in terms of not making it sound bad.

Would love to hear the full piece once it´s done, if you ever finish it or turn it into something that is. I´ll be sure to show a little support in terms of liking and commenting on it as as a show of appreciation for your kindness to share your settings.


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## nickhmusic

Since purchasing CSS, I've been working on my template, ways to simplify whilst retaining a well-balanced decently engineered starting point from which to start my own work.

One of my favourite pieces is Desplat's Obliviate from the penultimate Harry Potter film, and i've started mocking it up with the libraries I have - but particularly to see how CSS fares on the long sweeping violins line, the viola/cello counterpoint and the short ostinatos. Strings-wise in the shorts, there is also a smidge of LASS in there, with VSL Dbl Pizz doing the lowest short line.

I have to say I LOVE the expression/emotion in this library, but there is a noise issue I still can't get past, and it tends to rear its ugly head when the lines get quite busy. A lot of layering of room mic, main mic and some close mic noise. Further finessing perhaps needed as I finish the mockup.

Anyway, here is the snippet.


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## Trash Panda

Bluemount Score said:


> This didn't age well!


Like a shrimp Caesar salad under a heat lamp.


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## Vladimir Bulaev

nickhmusic said:


> I have to say I LOVE the expression/emotion in this library, but there is a noise issue I still can't get past, and it tends to rear its ugly head when the lines get quite busy. A lot of layering of room mic, main mic and some close mic noise. Further finessing perhaps needed as I finish the mockup.


We only hear a lot of hiss on the main mics. Alex mentioned in one answer earlier:


> _The library isn't designed to use the main mics as the most prominent part of the sound. They are there to provide the ambience and stereo image, and the close mics can be used to dial in extra detail as required. I do hear your point though, and I'm intending on applying noise reduction to the main mics eventually and re-packaging / re-releasing the samples. This won't be happening for at least 6 months though, so I'll have to ask you to hang in there till then. _


Excerpt from the topic about CSSS noisy

So I suppose to keep the main mics, you can try to apply noise reduction exclusively on them.
Has anyone managed to do this well, without significant damage?


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## musicark1409

¿Hola! Cómo estás? Soy un nuevo usuario de CSS, me encanta su sonido pero llevo días tratando de luchar para poder usarlo con Finale, porque es el programa donde más tiempo paso, lo sé en la cinemática. página de estudio advierten que no admiten el uso de su producto en este tipo de software pero quería saber si hay alguien que haya podido usarlo sin tener problemas de notas pegadas o sonidos que se quedan sonando al exportar o en su totalidad reproducción. Es posible resolver esto o definitivamente no


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## musicark1409

¿Hola! Cómo estás? Soy un nuevo usuario de CSS, me encanta su sonido pero llevo días tratando de luchar para poder usarlo con Finale, porque es el programa donde más tiempo paso, lo sé en la cinemática. página de estudio advierten que no admiten el uso de su producto en este tipo de software pero quería saber si hay alguien que haya podido usarlo sin tener problemas de notas pegadas o sonidos que se quedan sonando al exportar o en su totalidad reproducción. Es posible resolver esto o definitivamente no


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## nickhmusic

Been trying to get my head around building more of a simple template since purchasing CSS in early Jan. Delay niggles aside (per transition type) and balancing instruments by section at the moment, I wanted to share how impressed I am with (and inspired by) the legato here and how emotive these lines are. A quick mockup from E.T just to highlight to anyone considering this library, it really lives and breathes emotion.

Now, to invent a word that can describe how incredible John Williams really is in his writing.


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## nickhmusic

For anyone who is interested in hearing CSS's legato lines, here's a quick mockup snippet from one of my favourite John Barry pieces, first with the Lexicon tail, second without to hear CSS without it.


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## José Herring

musicark1409 said:


> ¿Hola! Cómo estás? Soy un nuevo usuario de CSS, me encanta su sonido pero llevo días tratando de luchar para poder usarlo con Finale, porque es el programa donde más tiempo paso, lo sé en la cinemática. página de estudio advierten que no admiten el uso de su producto en este tipo de software pero quería saber si hay alguien que haya podido usarlo sin tener problemas de notas pegadas o sonidos que se quedan sonando al exportar o en su totalidad reproducción. Es posible resolver esto o definitivamente no


Creo que no. Pero hey otras "sample libraries" que puedes usar con Final. Tambien hey "Note Performer" que se puedes usar con Finale que puede ayudar. 

Perdona mi español, no lo hablo en mucho tiempo.






NotePerformer 3


NotePerformer 3 is the Artificial Intelligence-based orchestral playback engine for Sibelius, Finale & Dorico.




 www.noteperformer.com


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## muziksculp

nickhmusic said:


> For anyone who is interested in hearing CSS's legato lines, here's a quick mockup snippet from one of my favourite John Barry pieces, first with the Lexicon tail, second without to hear CSS without it.




Hi @nickhmusic ,


Thanks for sharing this John Barry piece, your CSS emulation Sounds lovely 

I really like the Lexicon Tail version, which Lexicon Reverb are you using ?

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## nickhmusic

muziksculp said:


> Hi @nickhmusic ,
> 
> 
> Thanks for sharing this John Barry piece, your CSS emulation Sounds lovely
> 
> I really like the Lexicon Tail version, which Lexicon Reverb are you using ?
> 
> Cheers,
> Muziksculp


hey muziksculp,

Thank you, glad you like it.

It's the Lexicon PCM Random Hall. Have split out all strings into a bus and all reverbs that those strings use now go to that output, so I can ride the volume of the Tail Reverb according to taste, and trying to achieve that elusive "real".


Cheers again man, loving this educational journey!


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## muziksculp

nickhmusic said:


> It's the Lexicon PCM Random Hall


Is that from their PCM Native Bundle Plugin ? 

Thanks.


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## nickhmusic

muziksculp said:


> Is that from their PCM Native Bundle Plugin ?
> 
> Thanks.


indeed, although they used to sell them individually so i grabbed it years ago on its own.


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## muziksculp

nickhmusic said:


> indeed, although they used to sell them individually so i grabbed it years ago on its own.


OK. Thanks. 

You got lucky, because they are only selling it as a bundle now, and it's not cheap. listed at ($629)


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## nickhmusic

I went to a Harry Gregson-Williams talk in 2012 at the O2 in London, and a few people were talking at the time about the "Spin and Wander" element of the Random Hall, versus the normal Hall plugin. I tested them both as demos and preferred this quite a bit more.


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## nickhmusic

muziksculp said:


> OK. Thanks.
> 
> You got lucky, because they are only selling it as a bundle now, and it's not cheap. listed at ($629)


yeah that's a pain as I quite like the others too.


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## markleake

I find the Lexington Random Hall set at around 1.8 seconds is fantastic. I use this often. I watched a CineSamples video once where they recommended that length tail to best emulate a good hall, and it was good advice.


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