# How do you expand an "idea" into a composition/song ?



## Bansaw (Sep 21, 2018)

I have lots of musical "ideas" which I have in a folder, and I go back to them when I need inspiration. Often they are interesting melodies or chord progressions.

Some of them could be developed into full compositions or songs, but I get a block sometimes on "how do I develop this?"

Do you have any tips on how you do this ?


(either an orchestral/cinematic piece, or an EDM song.)


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## dzilizzi (Sep 21, 2018)

I have this problem as well, so I am not sure how much help I can be. I usually put the melody down in midi,figure out the key, and then add chords that work with the melody but are still in the key. Once I have the chords, I usually go to EZKeys, plug in the chords and find something that sounds good with what is in my mind. I may not end up using it in the final product, but once I drag and drop into my DAW, I have a starting place. 

EZkeys makes it easy to set up a song for me - you can copy and paste parts and basically get the whole arrangement roughed out in midi. And? There are a lot of similar programs that will do the same thing - RapidComposer and Synfire are two I have. EZkeys is just faster for me. Cubase's Chord Track will also work. 

Of course, this is where I sometimes get stuck. I'm a vocalist, so I take forever to get the rest of the arrangement done. There are some classes on Groove3 that have helped. And if you are doing orchestration, Mike Verta's classes are good.


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## d.healey (Sep 21, 2018)

Read up on theme and variation.


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## bryla (Sep 21, 2018)

This has come up a couple of times recently on the forum and once again I can really recommend Alan Belkins new book 'Musical Composition'. Really enjoying it even though I'm only a handful of chapters in.


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## Bansaw (Sep 21, 2018)

bryla said:


> This has come up a couple of times recently on the forum and once again I can really recommend Alan Belkins new book 'Musical Composition'. Really enjoying it even though I'm only a handful of chapters in.


thanks, do you have links to the other threads you were talking about? Or their titles and I can search them myself...


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## Maxfabian (Sep 21, 2018)

you probably already heard of this, but if you don't it might be interesting. It is Mr Verta and his tips and trix. I thought it was interesting!


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## jhughes (Sep 21, 2018)

Bansaw said:


> I have lots of musical "ideas" which I have in a folder, and I go back to them when I need inspiration. Often they are interesting melodies or chord progressions.
> 
> Some of them could be developed into full compositions or songs, but I get a block sometimes on "how do I develop this?"
> 
> Do you have any tips on how you do this ?


Your question is very open-ended....but nevertheless, here is a generic response.:

First, you’ve got to study scores and music you like. How did (insert favorite composer) develop their works? The more ways you know Others developed their pieces, the more ways you’ll have in your own toolbox to develop yours. Can you take a piece and explain how they got from point A to B? Can you recreate that?
Can you write variations on a theme? How many? 
Given two keys can you modulate between them?

A song normally needs more than an idea and bunch of modulations, but it’s foundational stuff. 

Don’t try to go at it alone. Post it, hire someone to help you, ask others what they think.


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## Bansaw (Sep 24, 2018)

still_lives said:


> Sometimes I'll even think in terms of actual colors. For instance, I kind of feel like dorian mode is blue, or mixolydian is kind of red, etc. The idea here is to get myself outside the box just enough so that I can look at it as "creativity" in general rather than, specifically, writing a song. That opens up the mind to sources of inspiration that aren't necessarily musical in nature.


Some people have that ability to think in colors.
Thanks for your other thoughts too.


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## X-Bassist (Sep 24, 2018)

Some famous composers (including JW) speak about spending most of their time on the few melody notes, to get them just right, before fleshing out the rest. So from this perspective you’ve got the hard part done already! 

Sometimes for me playing the notes on a keyboard over and over not only solidifies what they should be and where they should land, but brings up ideas of chords that would go with it well, or set it off. Just a simple chord progression behind it can turn it into a completely different song, adding an emotional element which, if it works well, helps me to figure out where the song wants to go (yes, at times it seems to have a mind of it’s own).

And if, after repeating it over and over, I come up with nothing, I stop. Take a walk with the dog somewhere new, and a new direction comes to me. Repeating it helps to cement it in my mind, then the walk allows me to not think about it, so the subconscious can spit out something I never would have thought of normally (bring your phone with a recording app too, because you’ll forget it just as easily). By the time I get home from the walk, I’m ready to record the new parts. 

Focus on one song at a time (start with your best idea) and really focus on just those notes, nothing else. Try many things against it, forget everything else you’ve written (if you can), and be open to trying things that are not your norm. Your subconscious has some great ideas, it just takes practice to get your intellectual, over-analysing concious mind out of the way.  Distract your brain with other activities when your stuck, that usually brings ideas.


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## germancomponist (Sep 24, 2018)

Bansaw said:


> I have lots of musical "ideas" which I have in a folder, and I go back to them when I need inspiration. Often they are interesting melodies or chord progressions.


I too have such a folder, and it is getting bigger and bigger. Sometimes I go back and listen, but not because I need inspiration. I go back to check out what I did when I was in this and that "Zeitgeist", and sometimes I think: "Oh wow, what a great idea I had, and sometimes I think "oh, what a shit" e.t.c.". Sometimes I finish an "old idea" with my newest tools. Maybe at the time when I recorded all these snippets, I was ahead of my "Zeitgeist" time?


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## JT (Sep 24, 2018)

A great example of simple development if the love theme from LALA Land.

The 1st two measures state the theme, the next two measures are the same but the last note is changed. The next two are identical to the first two measures. Then 7 & 8 keep the same rhythm but now it's a dominant chord that wants to move forward. The whole piece is like this. Repeating a theme makes the listener comfortable, like an old friend, and variations give it interest like a conversation.

Get music you like and break it down measure by measure to find out why you like it.


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## Bansaw (Sep 25, 2018)

still_lives said:


> I always have to remind myself of this: *"What are you trying to say?"*


This is a bit of a light-bulb moment. When I have ideas or music sketches, I tend to think "how do I make this more sonically pleasing, how do I develop this melody, apply the appropriate music theory etc." Rather than, "what is this 'saying'".
I approach it from a more _*technical* _viewpoint than an _*psychological*_/_*emotional *_one. 
Thus I seem to miss the component of "what do I want to say here/where do I want to go with this" on that level.
I think the concept of what I am trying to say is something I should add much more often to my thought process.


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## Lassi Tani (Sep 25, 2018)

Bansaw said:


> This is a bit of a light-bulb moment. When I have ideas or music sketches, I tend to think "how do I make this more sonically pleasing, how do I develop this melody, apply the appropriate music theory etc." Rather than, "what is this 'saying'".
> I approach it from a more _*technical* _viewpoint than an _*psychological*_/_*emotional *_one.
> Thus I seem to miss the component of "what do I want to say here/where do I want to go with this" on that level.
> I think the concept of what I am trying to say is something I should add much more often to my thought process.



True. I think the story comes first before a more technical viewpoint. Your music tells a story, and if you lose the track of the story, you'll get stuck. But of course theory is important, but it's just tools for telling your story.


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## wst3 (Sep 25, 2018)

I think that coming up with a musical idea, and creating a finished piece are two different tasks.

Coming up with a musical idea is art, or luck maybe? It is whatever inspires you.

Creating a finished piece is craft, and it is something that can be learned.

I wish I was better at that!!


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## ed buller (Sep 25, 2018)

Well

to be brutal your concern is really about whether it's any good right ? I mean just following one idea with another isn't that hard. It's being brilliant that's tricky. Don't worry about that for now. Try and detach yourself from the process a bit. Set yourself a deadline and stick to it. Then decide on a general theme. Happy, Sad..etc. Or pick a piece of art you like and write some music for it. Decide on length and try and stick to it.

this baby is popular :







Now set out your ideas. They don't all have to be long melodies and fantastic chords. Don't worry about the order yet. Your cooking and need ingredients is all. If you work in a DAW bash them in and Label them. Your working to a deadline so don't stress about whether or not each idea is genius. Just get em down.

Once you have a bunch. ( different ideas NOT variations on the same idea ). Drag them over to the left side of the editor. Bar 1000 or so. Go back to bar 5 ( always start at Bar 5 ) and Put them together. At this point fiddle with them to make them fit. Maybe idea 3 sounds better after idea1 NOT 2. Maybe idea 6 is better at half the speed. DON"T WORRY IF IT ISN'T PERFECT. the goal here is to get it done by your deadline. Once the shape is in start to fill in the sounds . Think of dynamics. Where does it get loud ? think of timbre.....where are the dark bits...where are the bright bits...think of pitch. part 6 should be high strings and Celeste ...etc etc....

Now start to focus. Are the themes coming across. Are bit's too busy ( almost always yes ) where can you cut stuff out. Where can you be clever and combine idea 3 with idea 6 ?
perhaps the melody from idea 5 with a few choice tweaks in the melody will sit really well in the double bases under idea 1 ? but keep in mind the length. If its 2 mins long perhaps 12 ideas is too many ?. Be Brutal....hack hack hack.....As Kurt Vonnegut said: "Start as close to the end as possible" . remember you are trying to entertain !...be dramatic in bit's...go from polyphony to a single voice...go from the high octaves to the low....think of tricks you can use.

Try and get excited by the process. Honestly the amount of hours I have spent writing, watching, helping people make music and the amount of that time it was fun.........well not much ( sometimes it really is just a job )....BUT when it's fun....its awesome !....

good luck

e


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## InLight-Tone (Sep 25, 2018)

From doing library music my experience is that you really want to boil everything down to one, at the most two ideas that work together and flesh out the rest of the composition from them.

I NEVER save ideas more than a day or so. Review your snippets and if they don't immediately pull you in, trash them forever. JunkieXL says he does this as well in one of his latest videos. 

I used to come up with 8 bars and store it, then I had a folder with tons of these partial compositions which I tried to come back to for "inspiration". None of those ideas I ever finished and later realized that saving and coming back to old ideas is a flawed concept. The heat of the moment is where you want to be.

That brings me to, once you get an idea that's solid, flesh it out, spew out the jist of thecomposition and don't judge. Just get SOMETHING on virtual paper. Try EVERYTHING that comes to you, then whittle the good parts down and trim out the rest. Let the form reveal itself from the rough cut.

ALWAYS finish every idea that you deem good and finish it fast. A good rule of thumb is Day 1, come up with a good new idea you want to develop. Spew out the structure of the composition and rough cut the main tracks. Day 2 do some heavy editing and refinement, trim the fat, reveal the gemstone. Day 3 do fine editing, polishing and add detail. Day 4 master and get it out the door. The days can be a few hours so you can work on multiple tracks/cues as time permits...


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## TimCox (Sep 26, 2018)

Take a piece you know, whether it's classical or whatever and spreadsheet out everything that's happening via a timeline. I did this with "Scherzo for Motorcycle and Orchestra" from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. I just wanted to break down the colors in the orchestra as well as treatment of the melody. As well as log the theme and variation and exposition of said theme. It helped a lot to open my head up to what I wanted to achieve musically


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## Eckoes (Sep 26, 2018)

I’m pretty much an amateur, but one thing that works for me is to find a way to reduce the decisions I have to make..

My favorite way to do this is to take a piece of music I like and copy the form verbatim. I mostly compose rock/jazz/prog type instrumentals as a reference point. 

I’ll copy the time signature, tempo, length of each section, repeats....everything but the melodic and harmonic elements. Then I have a scaffold on which to build. There are no decisions about when to do what.

Then all I have to do is fill it in. 

This is probably not the greatest idea for being original, but I have composed my favorite pieces this way and I’ve learned a lot about structure by doing it. And it takes some of the pressure off.


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## Bansaw (Sep 28, 2018)

InLight-Tone said:


> I NEVER save ideas more than a day or so. Review your snippets and if they don't immediately pull you in, trash them forever.


Lot of good stuff in your post I agree with, but I don't really agree with this. The reason being is that I might be more advanced in theory and experience in two years time to be in a position skill-wise to develop ideas that I am not in a position to now.


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## redlester (Sep 28, 2018)

http://stoney.sb.org/eno/oblique.html


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## jhughes (Sep 28, 2018)

Bansaw said:


> Lot of good stuff in your post I agree with, but I don't really agree with this. The reason being is that I might be more advanced in theory and experience in two years time to be in a position skill-wise to develop ideas that I am not in a position to now.




There are way too many examples of great composers/writers working on a piece for months and years in some cases for me to believe it’s a flawed concept for everyone to revisit or work slower. Also, plenty kept notebooks of ideas only to finish or develop them years later. If this advice was taken, who knows how many would have thrown away their best ideas and art.
If your goal doesn’t involve lots of quantity and deadlines then I can’t say I agree with it either. Not every piece is meant to be written the moment you conceive of it. Some of arts greatest works took an extended time to realize. 
I think it’s better in the beginning to save your ideas. Accept they won’t all be good. At the same time, learning how to work quickly is a skill to aim for as well...and those tactics might come in handy for that.
Not all composers work alike. I saw a guys video recently where he had a big box beside his piano. When he worked on a commission, he just wrote on paper and put his ideas in that box. He’d go back through it keeping all that worked. It was a huge stack of paper full of short ideas.


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## ed buller (Sep 29, 2018)

InLight-Tone said:


> I NEVER save ideas more than a day or so. Review your snippets and if they don't immediately pull you in, trash them forever.



that might work for you. But in my experience this is a mistake. I can think of many occasions when something got finished many years later that was well worth finishing

best

ed


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## InLight-Tone (Sep 29, 2018)

ed buller said:


> that might work for you. But in my experience this is a mistake. I can think of many occasions when something got finished many years later that was well worth finishing
> 
> best
> 
> ed


Not for me. If we're talking years, my growth as a composer has grown exponentially, so those ideas I had years ago are mute, old, and a reflection of my state at that time period. I used to think that way, but I also believed that GOOD ideas were hard to come by. 

I now know that ideas/seeds are easy to come up with, and that inspiration is more craftsmanship than DIVINE INSPIRATION. To me, finishing quickly is key, not letting things linger for years but finishing tracks and creating a snapshot of my current abilities, knowledge and production skills here and now. 

We all get better as the days go by for the most part, the more music written the faster the progression. I find saving ideas from the past is a hindrance to that free-flowing forward evolution. YMMV.


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## TimCox (Oct 2, 2018)

InLight-Tone said:


> I now know that ideas/seeds are easy to come up with, and that inspiration is more craftsmanship than DIVINE INSPIRATION.



But what if the idea was something that you, as a craftsman, weren't yet skilled enough to complete? I don't believe in divine inspiration but I do believe that music doesn't have a shelf life.


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## InLight-Tone (Oct 2, 2018)

TimCox said:


> But what if the idea was something that you, as a craftsman, weren't yet skilled enough to complete? I don't believe in divine inspiration but I do believe that music doesn't have a shelf life.


As far as composing modern media music, I think that music DOES have a shelf life. YMMV...


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## TimCox (Oct 2, 2018)

InLight-Tone said:


> As far as composing modern media music, I think that music DOES have a shelf life. YMMV...



I see your point of view, I still disagree though!


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## Daniele Nasuti (Oct 12, 2018)

still_lives said:


> I can obviously only speak for myself here, and I would definitely not consider myself a "composer" by any means, unlike many of the talented folks here.
> 
> I think we put a lot of pressure on ourselves, sometimes, thinking that an idea must be developed more before it can be considered complete. I know I certainly struggle with this, where I come up with a chord progression that I really love, and then it goes nowhere because I feel like I have to develop it even further into something even greater. But sometimes, I feel that it is possible that music can be over-developed, where the original idea becomes so diluted and stops being the focus of the song.
> 
> ...



One of the best advices I've ever heard!! Thank you!
I think this is true also in other disciplines like Mixing and also Graphic etc.
The important thing is that we should use plugins and our skills only if we need and we feel that the piece need it because maybe you can hear that something is missed, and so you add things.


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## ghandizilla (Oct 12, 2018)

Most important thing I've learnt last year:
- play on the piano before arranging so you know where you're going (regarding dynamic structure), emphasized by Mike Verta

Most important things I've learnt this year:
- have a precize metaphore in mind (aka. "What are you trying to say?"), emphasized by Alain Mayrand in OTL2
- always begin by listening pieces close to what you're aiming for, transcribe bits of them, what is the tonality, what are the bass and main lines doing...
-> with a clear metaphor and a clear inspiration, you don't even have to lock everything on the piano beforehand, because you already know where you're going

I recommend this Farkle Friday:


It seems remote to what you're asking but in fact, it's the core of it. As I see it, you may be stuck when it comes to developing because your first basic idea may not be well-defined enough. Because once you're clear on the metaphor and inspiration, _you already hear in your head how it's supposed to develop_ (and hence, the best places to surprise people, deceive what they are expecting).

All the best,


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## MichaelB (Oct 13, 2018)

This might help for getting some inspiration, take any song, write a new melody for the lyrics e.g Hey Jude , do it in a minor key , it may not resemble anything like the original, not even remotely, see if you can come up with a new melody that sounds good. You can also change the lyrics to get inspiration for a completely new melody e.g Hey hey hey Jude, don’t make don’t make don’t make it bad , if I try and make a melody from this line I immediately get some nice ideas. Please note that I’m not suggesting you voilate any copyright laws. Make a game of it, no inspiration, take the first words that comes out of somebody’s mouth and write a melody line. Imagine your spouse walks in and asks ‘Have you seen my keys?” I can think of nice melodies based on “have you seen, have you seen, have you seen my keys”. Once you have a motive going, develop it, transpose or invert, legato change to staccato, change note values to dotted note values, have different instruments play it in different ways, then loud then soft then high then low, then fast then slow, you might be surprised with what you can come up with.

I try and imagine how did Freddie Mercury write Bohemian Rhapsody, he repeats many words ‘Mamma Mia Mamma Mia Mamma Mia let it go’ and right away you can come up with a much better melody and rythmn compared to a short line like ‘Mamma Mia let it go’, he transposes over and over and shows what a master he is in transposing by doing it with one word and it makes in my opinion the most catchy line from this song ‘no no no no no no no no’. Or Mozart, in the movie Amadeus, playing the welcoming march that Salleri wrote for him and instantly comes up with the idea that the last line doesn’t really work, paused for a second and he puts his magic touch on it and rewrites the whole thing in one go and you can hardly believe how he transforms this simple boring piece into a brilliant piece just by putting his stamp on it.


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