# Are musicians failed people?



## PeterN (Aug 1, 2020)

heh

Recently Ive started to see musicians as a bunch of losers, including myself, and this is a fukin crisis bcs ive invested so much in this, two and a half decades almost. Heres the philosophy, sort of. You got people who build cars, people who understand electricity, people who work in hospitals, management, engineering, mining, pilots, military even policemen, yes, and then wtf you got these losers who are grown up adults doing "music". I can accept it as a hobby, like collecting stamps, but not much more than that. Its like those philosophers in ancient greece who were a bunch of lazy men who went to the agora an "philosophise", while the rest of the population was sweating, and their wives were taking care of everything.

Do you get over this thought, or is this road the road to be doomed? Even a one handed lumberjack does more good for society when it comes to profession.

Thoughts?

Not trying to piss off anyone, I view myself as a loser now, and this is horrible to come to this realization after 2 decades of "vanity".


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Aug 1, 2020)

PeterN said:


> heh
> 
> Recently Ive started to see musicians as a bunch of losers, including myself, and this is a fukin crisis bcs ive invested so much in this, two and a half decades almost. Heres the philosophy, sort of. You got people who build cars, people who understand electricity, people who work in hospitals, management, engineering, mining, pilots, military even policemen, yes, and then wtf you got these losers who are grown up adults doing "music". I can accept it as a hobby, like collecting stamps, but not much more than that. Its like those philosophers in ancient greece who were a bunch of lazy men who went to the agora an "philosophise", while the rest of the population was sweating, and their wives were taking care of everything.
> 
> ...


During the Covid-19 crisis where societies shut down, one of the things that people could enjoy while restricted to their homes was music.


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## storyteller (Aug 1, 2020)

If it makes you happy, that is all that matters. Joy is #1... You have to put out of your mind what anyone else might think of you... and in the same breath what you might think of everyone else. But also it should be said that anyone can use any tool, any outlet for good or malevolent purposes. If it was for joy, have no doubts. If it was for ego, then self evaluate.

I will say though, if any person’s actions were made to intentionally plant subliminal messages in dopamine-fueling tunes with an intent to control others or done so for personal gain... or aiding those that do, then a major course-correction is likely in that persons future at some point.  I doubt that’s why you’ve brought this up though.

fwiw - some of the brightest people in the world are musicians. And the happiest.


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## Stringtree (Aug 1, 2020)

How much Ouzo did you have before dinner? Lol.

Music is one aspect of what I hope I have developed into a well-rounded personality in myself. I hardly think music is the only aspect of your personality you have poured your heart into. 

Recently I thought about how much time I put into guitar and rock music, two things that have increasingly little relevance today. No gigs, no real focus on guitar. If I lost that fretting hand, would it be such a big deal? No. It might be sad because I like playing Steely Dan and Yes, or just noodling. 

I also put time into beautiful food, electricity, photography, video, voice over, computer literacy, other musical instruments, live production, writing, languages. 

You're a person of the world, and you have more facility with the English language than most Americans. Take stock of what other pursuits you've dedicated yourself to. 

In these times, people may find themselves in need of help. I need it. I said it. I'm reaching out. It sounds like you are frustrated and could use a friendly voice. I haven't had a hug since March of this year. That's weird and horrible. 

You're not alone. Not at all. Doubts are normal. I know the good people here will give you some answers.

Greg


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## Cheezus (Aug 1, 2020)

It’s not healthy to judge yourself or others by the standard “doesn’t build cars or understand electricity”. You are not a failure, the only requirement you should be concerned with fulfilling is whether you are happy in life or not.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Aug 1, 2020)

Btw. making music is a unique talent not everyone has.


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## merlinhimself (Aug 1, 2020)

storyteller said:


> If it makes you happy,


What he said. Ive had your thought before, that music wasnt professional enough, or that people would think less of me, even in school I wouldnt tell people what I really wanted to do. But I just got over what people thought of me because the truth is nobody thinks of you as much as you think they do, thats where the vanity lies. I realized that its a craft just like any other and that it is a necessity in the world and if Im good enough to make a living out of it, then thats my choice to make! Imagine how different any Williams film would have been if he gave up before he has the chance because of how people may have viewed him.


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## JohnG (Aug 1, 2020)

Well, Peter, I guess it depends on how you define a "loser."

Because we're assailed continuously by advertising and the blandishments of "social" [toxic] media, it's hard to stop the slide into the general message that:

*you = money/fame/stuff*​
Judging by your post, I would be surprised if you'd condemn someone else based on his lack of money, so probably you don't want to do that to yourself either. Our 'worth' does not, in my view, equal our bank accounts. Or "Likes." Maybe the kindness we give?

*"Vanity, saith the preacher..."*

Regarding vanity, I think that is a difficult one, to which I'd ask: When does making art of any kind -- poetry, music, painting, sculpture -- make the transition from vanity to: _not_ vanity?

I don't know, because all those activities arguably spring from vanity. Who here thinks he can write a better piece than Mozart / Lamar / McCartney etc.?

[show of hands?...no?] 

So why do we do it?

I can only say that I just can't seem to help myself. Notwithstanding ready and more reliable career options, I just kept doing it and doing it and now a lot of time has passed and -- still at it.


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## Robo Rivard (Aug 1, 2020)

Haha, this poll should make you feel better... 
People like telemarketers better than artists!


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## chocobitz825 (Aug 1, 2020)

PeterN said:


> heh
> 
> Recently Ive started to see musicians as a bunch of losers, including myself, and this is a fukin crisis bcs ive invested so much in this, two and a half decades almost. Heres the philosophy, sort of. You got people who build cars, people who understand electricity, people who work in hospitals, management, engineering, mining, pilots, military even policemen, yes, and then wtf you got these losers who are grown up adults doing "music". I can accept it as a hobby, like collecting stamps, but not much more than that. Its like those philosophers in ancient greece who were a bunch of lazy men who went to the agora an "philosophise", while the rest of the population was sweating, and their wives were taking care of everything.
> 
> ...



I agree. While it’s a fine profession and a good hobby, artists are sometimes too self-important. Still, if you’re gonna do something you might as well do it well. Who knows? Maybe you’ll inspire some of those more vital people along the way.


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## rottoy (Aug 1, 2020)

I wish my parents would've told me I could've become a loser if I'd really put my mind to it.


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## chocobitz825 (Aug 1, 2020)

Robo Rivard said:


> Haha, this poll should make you feel better...
> People like telemarketers better than artists!


I feel bad for the human resource manager...no doubt they thought they were doing a vital job.


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## RonOrchComp (Aug 1, 2020)

PeterN said:


> I view myself as a loser



Well, then I view you as a loser as well.

Others are going to view you as you view yourself. So, as long as you view yourself as a loser, so will the rest of us.

*Are musicians failed people?*

As a population subset, most definitely not. Many musicians have failed careers (most, actually), but that does not mean they are_ failed people_. Just because you fail at your career choice, or your passion, or your dream, does not mean you have failed at life.


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## Robo Rivard (Aug 1, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> I feel bad for the human resource manager...no doubt they thought they were doing a vital job.


They should recycle into telemarketing.

Think about it. If we are stuck in a bunker at the end of times, artists will be the first ones to get eaten.


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## Rasoul Morteza (Aug 1, 2020)

If I were not a physicist, I would probably be a musician. I often think in music. I live my daydreams in music. I see my life in terms of music. 

- Albert Einstein


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## Architekton (Aug 1, 2020)

For example, my cousins is probably one of the best acoustic guitar players I've heard, extremely talented. Guitar is his income, but does his income mean wealth and prosperity, definitely not and that sucks. If you take a CEO in some company and his talent equivalent to income, than my cousin should earn 10 times as one CEO. And why is that not happening, because, no one cares and respects music and musicians anymore. Music is totally devalued today and no one takes musicians seriously - everyone looks at them as some lazy people who didnt lift their finger their whole life while at other side, those who judge music and musicians, dont understand how much you need to work to be on a semi-pro and pro level. And when I see people sweat their ass off to produce/write a good track and than they sell it for 1 usd, it makes me wanna cry.


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## chocobitz825 (Aug 1, 2020)

hbjdk said:


> I think lawyers will go first.


I could go for a helping of politician first.


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## chocobitz825 (Aug 1, 2020)

Architekton said:


> For example, my cousins is probably one of the best acoustic guitar players I've heard, extremely talented. Guitar is his income, but does his income mean wealth and prosperity, definitely not and that sucks. If you take a CEO in some company and his talent equivalent to income, than my cousin should earn 10 times as one CEO. And why is that not happening, because, no one cares and respects music and musicians anymore. Music is totally devalued today and no one takes musicians seriously - everyone looks at them as some lazy people who didnt lift their finger their whole life while at other side, those who judge music and musicians, dont understand how much you need to work to be on a semi-pro and pro level. And when I see people sweat their ass off to produce/write a good track and than they sell it for 1 usd, it makes me wanna cry.



But does the public perception even matter? The thing that impacts my perception of art is what’s left over in the end? With the ever expanding access to art, how likely are we to make another Mozart or Lennon? Who is really going to be remembered and valued for their art in 200 years? How about a thousand? Sure maybe individuals in other fields may be unknown or forgotten, but if their field contributed to a vital scientific or civil advancement, their work will impact humankind forever.

to some degree art has that..we help inspire sometimes, and work as good moral support, but we aren’t a part of a collective effort to improve anything. We’re not making some new form of music that will get picked up by future generations to improve for the betterment of humankind. We’re just a bunch of individual doing what our hearts guide us to do. It’s fine, but maybe not that important.

....Except maybe AI Music...that advancements in AI music could help AI overall and impact the future of our world.


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## Stringtree (Aug 1, 2020)

Rasoul Morteza said:


> If I were not a physicist, I would probably be a musician. I often think in music. I live my daydreams in music. I see my life in terms of music.
> 
> - Albert Einstein




Ansel Adams made piano his early focus. Later, he talked about the photographic negative being "the score" and the print being "a performance."

If that isn't flippin' profound, I don't know what is. 

The more spheres of knowledge you have invested in, the more they tend to overlap in magical areas that are goldmines if you have a creative, searching mind.


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## PeterN (Aug 1, 2020)

RonOrchComp said:


> Well, then I view you as a loser as well.
> 
> Others are going to view you as you view yourself. So, as long as you view yourself as a loser, so will the rest of us.
> 
> ...



I recall hearing, when an alcoholic admits he is an alcoholic, it is first step to recovery. First, you must admit this to yourself. Or when you become religious you admit existentially you are a faulty human. Personally, my strategy here is - and there does not seem to be any choice of strategies bcs destiny is pushing me there - is to admit to myself im a loser. I was stupid to think it was "talent" or "being gifted", when it was making the wrong choices in the strategic turns of life.

Heres the thought now. First admitting this. Then going to some religious building and ask higher powers of forgiveness and admitting human stupidity. Also pray for a path to recovery.


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## nolotrippen (Aug 1, 2020)

Robo Rivard said:


> Haha, this poll should make you feel better...
> People like telemarketers better than artists!


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## nolotrippen (Aug 1, 2020)

But that's in the UK. In the US, composers and musicians are far more necessary than nuclear physicists, brain surgeons, and superheroes. So there!


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## ptram (Aug 1, 2020)

People not making things, like musicians, are losers. People making things are winners. I make things to help people making music, so it's hard to understand in which category I fit.

Paolo


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Aug 1, 2020)

On my walls at home I have a few paintings done by lesser known Danish artists. 

Looking at those paintings always makes me happy, and I tremendously enjoy how they color and “give life” to my apartment.

Will any of these artists go down in history as geniuses such as Van Gogh, Jorn etc.? 

Probably not.

But to me, and no doubt many other buyers, these artists have made something valuable. Their work contribute significantly to making my life enjoyable.


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## Robo Rivard (Aug 1, 2020)

hbjdk said:


> I think lawyers will go first.


Artists and lawyers are like mushrooms. If you eat the artist, you will probably hallucinate. But if you eat the lawyer, you will end up in deep pain.


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## InLight-Tone (Aug 2, 2020)

I think if you have that question in your mind, you shouldn't be doing music...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 2, 2020)

"If you only know art, you're a fool. If you only know science, you're dangerous." - Someone's grandmother

"Man does not live by bread alone." - Jesus (I have the tape)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 2, 2020)

^ Jesus meant that fast cars and women are important too.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 2, 2020)

"Hey PeterN, just cheer the fuck up." - Nick Batzdorf


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## purple (Aug 2, 2020)

If musicians, artists, etc... are losers because they don't build cars or whatever, then there are much bigger fish to fry, and by that I mean the CEOs and shareholders of companies who collect the most of the product of what those workers making cars do, while not ever so much as standing in front of the assembly line. Or the politicians who spend half their time on vacation and collect millions of $ worth of perks and salary while doing as little as possible to stay in office.

In our world, music one of the few things some people can manage to make a living off of that isn't soul-sucking. I wouldn't get mad at the fellow who manages to do so, even if they end up making more money than me doing it nor do I think that anyone who does similar things for work. This logic reminds me of some conversation I saw where a paramedic who earned $15 an hour was angry at McDonalds employees for demanding a higher minimum wage instead of himself demanding higher wages as well. 

This is not to mention the fact that music at comfortable-career levels is quite challenging and requires a lot of work and practice to achieve, or the fact that music like all arts have a profound effect on society, beyond just being simple "entertainment". But I am sure many others in the thread have already touched on that.


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## Mike Fox (Aug 2, 2020)

Doing what makes you happy doesn't make you a loser.


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## azmusic (Aug 2, 2020)

Well a large number of artists in a society is symptomatic of great overall prosperity. If being an “artist” was on Maslow’s hierarchy of needs it would definitely be at the tippy top. In order to consider this path as a vocation you have to come from some amount of privilege, built up and given to by thousands of years of ancestors so that you could be whatever the hell you want! This privilege is not necessarily wealth, but escape from tyranny, struggle against the odds, outsurviving millennia of disease and mortality, so you can wake up in likely a developed country, maybe one with social services, quality education, and health care (usa barely fits lol) and pursue what you deem to be valuable. If you take the privileges for granted and without gratitude... that seems more “loser” like than taking the bull by the horns and exploring the greatest beauties art and music have to offer.


But to address the more immediate concern that we aren’t curing cancer or doing something productive. How do you define something as being beneficial to society?

Do you get a pay check for it? If that’s your definition then you exclude stay at home mothers/fathers and care givers...

Does it contribute to the economy? Well, the art and beauty of France and Spain, that attract more tourists than residents certainly is a powerful economic force. Not to mention the amount of money spent on fine art, Hollywood, music and festivals, etc.

Does it make the world a better place? I would definitely say art and music does this arguably more than any other vocation on earth. When pursued with authenticity, art is the great universal language, the stories that stay with us long after buildings crumble, and the internal reflections that inspire humanity to be at its best.

all this being said, I have definitely felt similar things myself! Studying, meeting, and speaking with role models who have defeated the odds and turned their music into viable careers that not only provides for them and their families but also makes the world a more beautiful place and spreads positivity rather than greed, power, and corruption... that’s what reminds of the nobility of this path


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## jononotbono (Aug 2, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> "If you only know art, you're a fool. If you only know science, you're dangerous." - Someone's grandmother
> 
> "Man does not live by bread alone." - Jesus (I have the tape)



I would like to add some sage advice to the discussion. Not sure if it’s relevant but it feels wise to do so...






You’re welcome.


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## gyprock (Aug 2, 2020)

Musicians struggle because of supply and demand. If you want a secure source of income, it is best to choose a profession that doesn't have amateurs or hobbyists as competition. For example, you can't get a job as a hobbyist civil engineer or brain surgeon so the people that have those qualifications are safe. In the middle, there are trades that normally require qualifications but are still open to enthusiasts e.g. car mechanic, electronics geek, programmer. At the bottom are artists, musicians, photographers, acting etc (i.e. all the fun, creative pursuits) that may or may not require a qualification. At this level, there is huge competition from those that are willing to work for almost nothing or those that can tolerate, intolerable working hours because they love what they do.

Take 100 accounting graduates and 90 of them will most probably get a regular, secure job that is 35 to 40 hrs a week with holiday and sick pay. Take 100 composition graduates and perhaps (at a guess) 10 of them might get irregular, insecure jobs without holiday pay or sick leave. This situation is only getting worse because the tools available to create and market yourself are available to everyone. In the past, if Johnny or Jenny wanted to have a printing company they would have had to inherit an offset printing machine (in a factory) from their parents. Now Johnny or Jenny can use a $2.99 iPAD app as the basis for a business venture.

Now with Covid, some people are winners and other's are losers. It's like some get job cancer and others don't. I've got friends working from home bringing in $500K a year between them and they complain of having too many Zoom meetings. I have a wholesale business supplying the tourist market and I'm 85% down. I got the job cancer but my friends didn't. It has nothing to do with skill level or year's of experience. In these times (and the future) you have to have your eggs in many baskets as competitive bullets will be flying at you from all directions.


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## NoamL (Aug 2, 2020)

We undervalue entertainment because we underestimate *CONCURRENCE*

Like if you meet an architect at a party and he tells you about an office building he just designed that will stand for 80 years until the year 2100 and be used by 200 people every day, that feels much more substantial than anything we musicians & composers create. Right?

But just run the numbers. My good friend & mentor Joe Trapanese wrote the score to _Wolf Warrior II_ which became a big success in China. It sold over 142 million tickets and Joe's score brought enjoyment and excitement to those 142 million movie goers. Now convert that work to an "office building" that serves 200 people a day, 261 days out of the year, and you'll see that building "stands" for 2,700 years.... even though Joe will probably never meet those millions of people. And of course the same goes for everyone else who worked on the movie: the actors, the set dressers, the special effects artists... even people who only put a day or two of work into polishing up some aspect of the film created something that entertained those 142 million people.

Music is only a part of people's every day lives but it is there when they want it. It can be background or foreground of their experiences. It brings people enjoyment, excitement, and relaxation.

BTW art is not social surplus. Don't think: "we have such a prosperous and abundant society that we can support a few lazy people on the fringes of productive society to be artists." Because even when people were living in caves and starving, they spent their spare time making art. Art has been there since the beginning of human history, because people have a need to create and enjoy something that is more than what we find in the world.


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## tcollins (Aug 2, 2020)

We have no choice in being musicians. We can choose not to be losers, though.

On the other hand I was once complaining to my son, who was a sheriff's deputy, about the project I was working on. He came back with, "Dad, if I make a mistake at work, someone could die. If you make a mistake at work, someone's snare track might not be loud enough".


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## prodigalson (Aug 2, 2020)

"Are musicians failed people?" WTF does that even mean? The sentence itself is moronic. 

Sounds like the OP, deep down, simply hates music. If you view people who fix cars as more valuable to society than music and composers then, yeah, you have no business doing it. 

Failure is subjective and by its purest definition is simply setting a goal of X and not attaining X. If you have spent your life working towards attaining something you dont even value in the first place, then...yeah..maybe you are a loser.


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## motomotomoto (Aug 2, 2020)

No.


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## cuttime (Aug 2, 2020)

Since I have no children or progeny, evolutionary science would deem me a failure as a person. You procreate or you die off as a species. Everything else is your choice.


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## Locks (Aug 2, 2020)

prodigalson said:


> "Are musicians failed people?" WTF does that even mean? The sentence itself is moronic.
> 
> Sounds like the OP, deep down, simply hates music. If you view people who fix cars as more valuable to society than music and composers then, yeah, you have no business doing it.



I feel like this characterisation of Peter's question is a little unfair. Although I do see where you're coming from, it's worth remembering that it's very easy to fall into this mindset in today's world.

It's very hard to dedicate yourself to something like music or art when we live in a society that does not value these pursuits. We're consistently bombarded with messages that we're not enough (I think the average person is exposed to around 5,000 advertising impressions a day!) and the path to happiness is through the pursuit of junk values that keep us on a consumerist treadmill rather than spending time cultivating things that will truly make us happy like our relationships and passions. It makes you internalise the idea that your self-worth is entirely tied up in your status and productivity.

You can tell people to pursue their dreams and intrinsic values, but be wary that you're yelling into a hurricane of messages and an entire value system that is telling us the exact opposite. It's not easy to overcome and we will all fall into the trap at some points in our lives.



PeterN said:


> Recently Ive started to see musicians as a bunch of losers, including myself, and this is a fukin crisis bcs ive invested so much in this, two and a half decades almost. Heres the philosophy, sort of. You got people who build cars, people who understand electricity, people who work in hospitals, management, engineering, mining, pilots, military even policemen, yes, and then wtf you got these losers who are grown up adults doing "music".



Peter, I highly recommend the book "Lost Connections" by Johann Hari. It's an incredible book and I think it would really help you break free of your current mindset (if that's what you want to do). I found it very eye-opening. 



PeterN said:


> Do you get over this thought, or is this road the road to be doomed? Even a one handed lumberjack does more good for society when it comes to profession.



Why is productivity something you view as a measure of value? I think you should spend some time reflecting on that assumption. I really like this quote.

"Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell." - Edward Abbey


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## FlyingAndi (Aug 2, 2020)

Imagine a world without art. Would you like to live there.



PeterN said:


> Heres the thought now. First admitting this. Then going to some religious building and ask higher powers of forgiveness and admitting human stupidity. Also pray for a path to recovery.



Read this post first, that's what's going to happen:





Covid-19: The Politics Oh The Politics Ooh Ooh Ooh


You need to learn how to quote...lol Ah, there's the problem right there. Judao-Christian values are not synonymous with God. You, like every other human being on Earth, interprets and filters and chooses to find meaning in certain ideas. I said generally engrained in Judeo/Christian...



vi-control.net


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## bachader (Aug 2, 2020)

The successful examples in music makes it look like a very rewarding job choice. I heard that about 1500 new composers move to LA each year to become a film composer. Most of them probably struggle with the mundane jobs to keep their dreams. They invest too much time and hardly earned money in that. In fact, the supply-demand balance maybe never allows more than 1% to reach their goals and most will end up with frustration and feel like a loser. It is like encouraging people to invest more money in Vegas or in lottery. Or young girls running away from their homes to LA to become an actress. This is not fair and it is no wonder that there are many who feel like Peter.


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## GtrString (Aug 2, 2020)

Musicians and creative artists are probably the most successful PEOPLE in the world. Who else is so connected to what makes people human? However, it is hard to be recognized in a world that has come to favor machines, rather than people. It makes no fcn sense!

Disruption of meaning is what the culture affords musicians in so many direct and indirect ways today. You cant make money from selling music, you cant gig, you are not essential and blah, blah, blah. And our plastic brains takes it all in and adapts. The massive exposure to negative coding is unavoidable, and its hard to resist as a musician, now more than ever. You are almost bound to feel like a misfit.

But try to read anything from Eric Maisel, like the Van Gogh Blues or Fearless Creating. Anything really. Maisel is a therapist who specialize in disruption of meaning for creative people, and provides a ton of insight into the sociological and psychological mechanisms that create this, as well as great tools for insights and recovery.

https://ericmaisel.com/the-van-gogh-blues-2/

With the Covid pandemic, the disruption and loss of meaning is worse than ever for creatives, so take care, all.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Aug 2, 2020)

What’s the definition of a failed person anyway?

If someone sets a goal of becoming a succesful film composer in Hollywood, and she has the skill and luck to reach that goal, would you still consider that person a success if you knew she only ever thought about herself, never had a kind word for her family and people around her, lacked empathy and compassion etc.?


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## Keith Theodosiou (Aug 2, 2020)

If music never existed, we wouldn't be any the wiser but can you imagine now that if music just suddenly vanished, how would you feel. Not one bit of music could be heard throughout the world.

That to me is a horrible thought.

For a lot of people, music is their sole passion.

Did you know that Beethoven tried and tried to find love in his life but he kept being rejected but he soldierd on. When he realised he was going deaf though, it got to him so much, the thought of not being able to compose, he nearly killed himself. He even wrote a suicide note out and left it in his desk. He did manage to get over it and he adapted to compose his music being deaf and he created some of his best works totally deaf.

Wow, if i went deaf, i don't know if i could handle that. Even though like the OP says, it's a hobby but a bloody expensive hobby, and yes, i basically write music for me cos no one else really hears it, i can't imagine not being able to create music.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Aug 2, 2020)

This is a good book also:









The Corrosion of Character


In The Corrosion of Character, Richard Sennett, "among the country's most distinguished thinkers . . . has concentrated into 176 pages a ...



www.goodreads.com


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## jmauz (Aug 2, 2020)

Loser is the new cool!!!


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## mikeh-375 (Aug 2, 2020)

I found that confidence was boosted by learning as was purpose and conviction.


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## Keith Theodosiou (Aug 2, 2020)

PeterN said:


> heh
> 
> Recently Ive started to see musicians as a bunch of losers, including myself, and this is a fukin crisis bcs ive invested so much in this, two and a half decades almost. Heres the philosophy, sort of. You got people who build cars, people who understand electricity, people who work in hospitals, management, engineering, mining, pilots, military even policemen, yes, and then wtf you got these losers who are grown up adults doing "music". I can accept it as a hobby, like collecting stamps, but not much more than that. Its like those philosophers in ancient greece who were a bunch of lazy men who went to the agora an "philosophise", while the rest of the population was sweating, and their wives were taking care of everything.
> 
> ...



Ok, now look at it this way. Name one piece of music that when you listen to it, it elevates your soul, it puts you in a better frame of mind. It gets to you so much, the hairs on the back of your neck stand up.

The person that wrote that piece of music was a grown adult. That grown adult managed to do something to you that is pretty rare in our daily existence.

Is that adult really a looser or did he manage to do something to you that not many others can do to you.

Now, imagine if you was that adult and what you created made thousands of people feel the way you did listening to that piece of music. Would you be a looser? No, you wouldn't.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Aug 2, 2020)

My view is that I wasn't born onto this world to fix someone's car.

Industrialisation and capitalism disguise their interests as morals. Modern society has been primed to integrate these interests into its belief systems. Mindless meritocracy is what you get, and it's a foolish way to measure "value" of oneself and other people.

Many of the most "successful" people in this landscape are criminals, psychopaths and deeply antisocial people. Many others live empty lives once you take their economical/industrial merit out of the equation. In fact, this model even seems to be the most desirable one. I don't aspire to this in any way.

If you feel like a loser, perhaps it would be more interesting to explore in more detail what even constitutes "losing" or "winning" from your perspective. In times like these, where every mundane step you make prompts some random asshole to unsolicitedly comment on your "life choices", and everything and anything is getting mercilessly politically weaponized, sensibilisation and introspection are made even more difficult. When there's a virus pandemic happening and people are divided into "essential" and "non-essential", perhaps even "potential offender", that creates an immense pressure.

Making money for a corporation, toiling away for a guy who's richer than you or finding clever ways to exploit "markets" (=humans) is not the only way to contribute to society - and I would argue, probably not the best one either. How about being a responsible citizen, a true friend, a loving partner, a reliable partner, an educator, a motivator, a role model?

Maybe musicians can get the feeling that they're losers or useless because admittedly, artists are often selfish and childish. Singular in their lifestyle and outlook. They think they can get away with playing in the sandbox forever. I know a bunch of musicians (but also some scientists and academics, for that matter) who care about nothing, other than that one thing they happen to obsess over. They basically masturbate all day. It's leading a life of irresponsibility, thanks to the wealth, safety and living standards we enjoy today. So maybe finding ways to diversify one's life activities and perspective, taking on responsibilities and finding ways to become important and inspirational to other people might add value to the perception of oneself.


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## FinGael (Aug 2, 2020)

I think that music, art and philosophy are the leaves of the tree of a civilization, or a society, in which the photosynthesis of the sunlight of our highest dreams and hopes of the future constantly creates new life. It is our compass and produces mental and spiritual oxygen that keeps us alive.

When we forget to breathe, or the art becomes only an imprint of the noise in our minds, we begin to suffer, lose direction and get cut off from the shining rays of the sun that we are deep within.


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## DANIELE (Aug 3, 2020)

hbjdk said:


> What’s the definition of a failed person anyway?
> 
> If someone sets a goal of becoming a succesful film composer in Hollywood, and she has the skill and luck to reach that goal, would you still consider that person a success if you knew she only ever thought about herself, never had a kind word for her family and people around her, lacked empathy and compassion etc.?



A failed person is someone that is wrong, he knows that he is wrong and he keeps to do it wrong. Any other person is not a failed one.

I'm an engineer but I love music so much, I'd like to know much about music and I'd like to have more time to make music, I think it is one of the best expressions of the human being.

Anything is useful in this world, the important thing is not to fall in the situation I described in the first sentence.


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## Keith Theodosiou (Aug 3, 2020)

Lets look at the bigger picture...

Are these people vital the to existence of the Human race:

Musicians, artists, footballers, tennis players, basketball players, jockies cricketers?

No they are not. They are all adults doing things that are not vital BUT they are ALL vital to humanity because they give us something we need in life.
Joy and happiness, pride, excitement, sometimes sadness, hope, entertainment, beauty, calmness and so on.

None of these people are loosers because they still give us something in life that we need.

Imagine this world without these people.

No thanks


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## chocobitz825 (Aug 3, 2020)

Keith Theodosiou said:


> Lets look at the bigger picture...
> 
> Are these people vital the to existence of the Human race:
> 
> ...



actually I can see why the OP feels this way because the pandemic has shown us how much the world keeps spinning on without those people. 

I mean "loser" is probably the term that triggers most people against the greater idea here. What we do is personally beneficial and not completely insignificant...but is it really all that important? To humankind as a whole art might be to some to degree, but artists? not really. Even before the pandemic we've seen how people have less value for art and artists.

If it satisfies us to do music, then who cares? but are we as vital to the world as doctors and scientists? not really. Will we be remembered generations later for our contributions? probably not. Nothing wrong with being one in the lot of people history wont remember.


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## Thundercat (Aug 3, 2020)

Music has the ability to elevate the soul, to inspire, to motivate, to heal. It is a most mysterious art, and those who are good at any aspect of it provide a wonderful service to others. Perhaps the greatest genius who ever lived was Bach - one of the greatest human beings this world has produced.

in other arts like painting, we revere the genius of masters like da Vinci, Van Gogh, michaelangelo - I could go on. Art celebrates life, and it is life we are here to live and enjoy. In some sense there is no greater profession than helping others to experience the joy and depths of life.

art does this. Music is art.That makes you valuable and part of the solution, a most valued member of society.

a musician: someone who loads $5000 worth of equipment into a $500 car, drives $50 miles for a gig and gets paid $5.

but you have to value yourself and know what you have to give is a gift from the depths of your soul. Maybe that’s more valuable than anything else.


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## PeterN (Aug 3, 2020)

I recall the Indian thugs (the historical thugs) as wandering musicians and fakirs murdering people for profit. They were the lowest strata of society, the thugs. Im moslem countries musicians are the outcast people, this is generalized conception, but even the prophet of Islam looked down on music. Buddhism did it as well, it was too wordly - (maya in Sanskrit i.e...) illusion. It was something losers did, or the ones that were not handy enough to fit in anywhere. Look at those blues musicians around war times, dressed in rags, having no tool they know but a guitar, a starved blues player is the conception of any musician, they got that right, its all blues. Look at Woody Guthrie, thin and sick looking man, no wonder he had that tag on his guitar, he had chosen a hobby as a profession. Like us he did that mistake, its a tragedy written all over the face. Overall, in Europe you can see in times of crisis, the musicians are the lowest strata of society, usually thieves and scammers.

We are all in this together.

And those of you who are younger, dont do this stupid mistake, learn a tool, but not the guitar. Lay bricks first then lay the instruments if you got free time.


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## Keith Theodosiou (Aug 3, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> If it satisfies us to do music, then who cares? but are we as vital to the world as doctors and scientists? not really. Will we be remembered generations later for our contributions? probably not. Nothing wrong with being one in the lot of people history wont remember.


You say that but i don't know of many doctors if any from the 17th century onwards or many scientists but i know of a hell of a lot of musicians that left something behind for humanity.

I did say they are not vital to our existence but i think they are vital to Humanity.

Of course, thousands of years ago, humans existed without music as we know it but it probably has been there from day one in one form or another. Even chanting.

All i am saying is that to the OP, i don't think any kind of artist is a looser or a waste of time and effort.


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## Locks (Aug 3, 2020)

PeterN said:


> I recall the Indian thugs (the historical thugs) as wandering musicians and fakirs murdering people for profit. They were the lowest strata of society, the thugs. Im moslem countries musicians are the outcast people, this is generalized conception, but even the prophet of Islam looked down on music. Buddhism did it as well, it was too wordly - (maya in Sanskrit i.e...) illusion. It was something losers did, or the ones that were not handy enough to fit in anywhere. Look at those blues musicians around war times, dressed in rags, having no tool they know but a guitar, a starved blues player is the conception of any musician, they got that right, its all blues. Look at Woody Guthrie, thin and sick looking man, no wonder he had that tag on his guitar, he had chosen a hobby as a profession. Like us he did that mistake, its a tragedy written all over the face. Overall, in Europe you can see in times of crisis, the musicians are the lowest strata of society, usually thieves and scammers.
> 
> We are all in this together.
> 
> And those of you who are younger, dont do this stupid mistake, learn a tool, but not the guitar. Lay bricks first then lay the instruments if you got free time.



I don't buy this at all. Your definition of a "loser" (I don't like this term but we're using it) seems to be informed by a very narrow perspective of what should be valued.



> "Woodrow Wilson Guthrie was an American singer-songwriter, who is considered one of the most significant figures in American western folk music. His music, including songs, such as "This Land Is Your Land", has inspired several generations both politically and musically."



That's Woody Guthrie's Wikipedia abstract. Is this really your definition of a "loser"? Someone who influenced generations and brought joy and perspective to countless people? I mean, come on mate.

*Edit:* Just wanted to second @Nils Neumann's suggestion of talking about some of this with good friends. It can really help to talk stuff through with trusted people who understand you.


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## Nils Neumann (Aug 3, 2020)

PeterN said:


> I recall the Indian thugs (the historical thugs) as wandering musicians and fakirs murdering people for profit. They were the lowest strata of society, the thugs. Im moslem countries musicians are the outcast people, this is generalized conception, but even the prophet of Islam looked down on music. Buddhism did it as well, it was too wordly - (maya in Sanskrit i.e...) illusion. It was something losers did, or the ones that were not handy enough to fit in anywhere. Look at those blues musicians around war times, dressed in rags, having no tool they know but a guitar, a starved blues player is the conception of any musician, they got that right, its all blues. Look at Woody Guthrie, thin and sick looking man, no wonder he had that tag on his guitar, he had chosen a hobby as a profession. Like us he did that mistake, its a tragedy written all over the face. Overall, in Europe you can see in times of crisis, the musicians are the lowest strata of society, usually thieves and scammers.
> 
> We are all in this together.
> 
> And those of you who are younger, dont do this stupid mistake, learn a tool, but not the guitar. Lay bricks first then lay the instruments if you got free time.


Is everything ok with you? I think you should talk to some good friends instead of pushing your frustration in a forum full of musicians...


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## TomislavEP (Aug 3, 2020)

For me, "success" is a relative and personal thing. Music is my life and the biggest joy ever since I started out as a child. Although I was formally educated in completely different areas, I could never imagine myself doing some office day job or another, although as a pro musician and composer who is yet to receive adequate "reward" for the dedication lasting for a few decades now, I'm often struggling financially and I do sometimes think about some form of formal recognition for my work. Still, I've managed to make ends meet somehow only with music for the past ten years or so. Sure, I often can't afford everything I would like to have, nor I have a space for luxuries. I don't have a bunch of chicks around me, fancy cars, the works. But I do have certain freedom which I wouldn't, had I've chosen a different path - being a lawyer, what I formally am by education. Although things are often difficult for me and I don't get an understanding from the people around, I would still choose music if I could be able to go back in time. Even with the fact that the world can theoretically go on without music and art while everyone needs doctors, lawyers, builders, electricians, etc.


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## Bluemount Score (Aug 3, 2020)

Just passing by to thank you for this interesting conversation. Something I thought about myself quite a bit.


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## Morning Coffee (Aug 3, 2020)

PeterN said:


> Recently Ive started to see musicians as a bunch of losers, including myself, and this is a fukin crisis bcs ive invested so much in this, two and a half decades almost. Heres the philosophy, sort of. You got people who build cars, people who understand electricity, people who work in hospitals, management, engineering, mining, pilots, military even policemen, yes, and then wtf you got these losers who are grown up adults doing "music".
> 
> Do you get over this thought, or is this road the road to be doomed? Even a one handed lumberjack does more good for society when it comes to profession.
> 
> Thoughts?




I have similar thoughts on occasion, other life experiences have influenced that as well. I often compare myself to others (family, careers, money, value), which can become a very negative thing, it is not a good thing to dwell on, but I also think to myself, at least I'm not a realestate agent!

Also, even though I don't make a living from music, I admire musicians who can, as long as they don't get too political.

On the most personal level, I would be really devastated if I could no longer at least have the ability to play a musical instrument at all, e.g, if I had a work place accident.

P.S. I admire your honesty.


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## Keith Theodosiou (Aug 3, 2020)

My music is average, nothing special. I know that. I know my composing ability is highly limited. I know i'm not a great guitarist or keyboard player.

I also know that, every now and then, i write a piece of music that i put on YT or SC and i have had some replies like 'this is beautiful' or 'bravo'.

I don't feel like a looser at all. Just cos in the music world i am 'unknown', i still have the ability every now and then to touch someone with my music.

To me, that is what music is. I have said this before and i will say it again. I have cried listening to certain pieces of music. I don't regard them composers as loosers because, although they havn't given me anything to keep me alive, they have still given me something in my life that touched me deeply.

This is music in a nutshell.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Aug 3, 2020)

PeterN said:


> I recall the Indian thugs (the historical thugs) as wandering musicians and fakirs murdering people for profit. They were the lowest strata of society, the thugs. Im moslem countries musicians are the outcast people, this is generalized conception, but even the prophet of Islam looked down on music. Buddhism did it as well, it was too wordly - (maya in Sanskrit i.e...) illusion. It was something losers did, or the ones that were not handy enough to fit in anywhere. Look at those blues musicians around war times, dressed in rags, having no tool they know but a guitar, a starved blues player is the conception of any musician, they got that right, its all blues. Look at Woody Guthrie, thin and sick looking man, no wonder he had that tag on his guitar, he had chosen a hobby as a profession. Like us he did that mistake, its a tragedy written all over the face. Overall, in Europe you can see in times of crisis, the musicians are the lowest strata of society, usually thieves and scammers.
> 
> We are all in this together.
> 
> And those of you who are younger, dont do this stupid mistake, learn a tool, but not the guitar. Lay bricks first then lay the instruments if you got free time.



Religions and traditionalist cultures tend to ostracize artists because of their natural inclination to explore, inquire, look behind the veil, experiment and be self-aware and self-centered, or just plainly don't do what they're told because their heart is elsewhere. They can't help themselves but to follow their calling, instead of accepting that there is just one God and you shouldn't have any other Gods beside him. Doesn't go to well with repressive dogmas. It's not just a musicians' problem either. Ask Galileo.


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## cqd (Aug 3, 2020)

I might get around to writing a more detailed reply to this thread later, but I've kind of felt similar to the op for a good while..

We're at a very particular time now where everyone can have their own studio and think of themselves as the next butch vig/rctech..

Society has elevated the music star for the last 100 years..now every second young lad is an aspiring hip hop producer..how many here were the people putting studios together when it was harder that realised it was a waste of time and then moved towards composition when samples allowed them to..

I'm always reminded of the 2012 London Olympics opening.. there was a bit with Rowan Atkinson playing Mr. Bean wandering around..he sat down at a keyboard just pressing one key like an idiot eating a big Mac.. just struck me at the time..


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## J-M (Aug 3, 2020)

I got good friends (even though during high school I spent most of my time practicing music) and awesome (extended) family, and I occasionally impress people with my photography and music - neither of these is my main income....I most definitely don't feel like a loser.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Aug 3, 2020)

DANIELE said:


> A failed person is someone that is wrong, he knows that he is wrong and he keeps to do it wrong. Any other person is not a failed one.
> 
> I'm an engineer but I love music so much, I'd like to know much about music and I'd like to have more time to make music, I think it is one of the best expressions of the human being.
> 
> Anything is useful in this world, the important thing is not to fall in the situation I described in the first sentence.


What I meant to say above is that human qualities often get overlooked and do not receive the proper value in our modern society. It is qualities such as empathy, compassion, being helpful, loving, polite, kind, forgiving etc. Instead value and prestige from a society point of view generally is placed on being competitive, ambitious, setting and reaching goals etc.

Of course one does not exclude the other, but I seem to recall having read many times in interviews with ”successful” businessmen and women that they regret not spending more time with their children for example. Are you a success as a human being if throughout your life you‘ve spent 12-14 hours a day at work (read: to follow your own ambitions etc.) instead of spending time with your family?


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## DANIELE (Aug 3, 2020)

hbjdk said:


> What I meant to say above is that human qualities often get overlooked and do not receive the proper value in our modern society. It is qualities such as empathy, compassion, being helpful, loving, polite, kind, forgiving etc. Instead value and prestige from a society point of view generally is placed on being competitive, ambitious, setting and reaching goals etc.
> 
> Of course one does not exclude the other, but I seem to recall having read many times in interviews with ”successful” businessmen and women that they regret not spending more time with their children for example. Are you a success as a human being if throughout your life you‘ve spent 12-14 hours a day at work (read: to follow your own ambitions etc.) instead of spending time with your family?



I fully agree with you, this is why I have given a simple definition of a failed people, this definition is against every principle of modern society, because of what you said.


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## JohnG (Aug 3, 2020)

TomislavEP said:


> I don't have a bunch of chicks around me, fancy cars, the works



You obviously don't play the accordion.


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## JohnG (Aug 3, 2020)

Locks said:


> It's very hard to dedicate yourself to something like music or art when we live in a society that does not value these pursuits. We're consistently bombarded with messages that we're not enough (I think the average person is exposed to around 5,000 advertising impressions a day!) and the path to happiness is through the pursuit of junk values that keep us on a consumerist treadmill rather than spending time cultivating things that will truly make us happy like our relationships and passions. It makes you internalise the idea that your self-worth is entirely tied up in your status and productivity.
> 
> You can tell people to pursue their dreams and intrinsic values, but be wary that you're yelling into a hurricane of messages and an entire value system that is telling us the exact opposite. It's not easy to overcome and we will all fall into the trap at some points in our lives.



Very wise words ^^

Actually, there are many wise words in this thread.


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## tcollins (Aug 3, 2020)

PeterN said:


> And those of you who are younger, dont do this stupid mistake, learn a tool, but not the guitar. Lay bricks first then lay the instruments if you got free time.



Better to wake up everyday to do the thing you love than to live a life of regret, wondering what might have been. Give it 100%. There are many ways to make music your living, from playing live to commercial music to teaching to creating tools for other musicians. It's not easy, though. If that is what you were expecting, for it to be easy, then you will be disappointed.

I started like many of us, by playing in less than opulent venues, surrounded by musicians who might fit your description of losers. In one band, the leader was a cocaine dealer who paid everyone else in the band in little plastic bags of the junk (I insisted on cash). I remember thinking that the public's view of musicians as losers was pretty accurate.

So I wrote a jingle for the music store where I worked. I hired the musicians, paid for studio time, and presented it to the store owner free of charge. This eventually led to a full time job as composer/MIDI guy at a commercial studio, then writing television music. Looking back, and listening back to my early work, I realise that I wasn't even very good at it, but it's amazing how quickly you get better when you must please a boss or client and you must put food on the table.

But making music for most people is a pleasure and enrichment of their lives, not a living, and this has always been the case. Your view of musicians as the dregs of society is far from accurate. From the middle class to the aristocracy, people gathered around a parlor piano to make their own music. It was considered vital for a well rounded member of society to have some musical training. For us, the parlor piano has been replaced by electronic versions, but the spirit lives on. The advantage these days is that we can now share our own music in a polished, recorded form with everyone else, and the possibility of making some money from compositions is more real than at any other time in history.

Life is what you make it. Now, pour yourself a cup of coffee, get into your studio and chase this loser thing out of your life.


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## InLight-Tone (Aug 3, 2020)

According to the thinkers of the East, there are five different intoxications: of beauty, youth and strength; then the intoxication of wealth; the third is power, command, the power of ruling; and there is the fourth intoxication, which is the intoxication of learning, of knowledge. But all these four intoxications fade away just like stars before the sun in the presence of the intoxication of music. The reason is that it touches that deepest part of man’s being. Music reaches farther than any other impression from the external world can reach. And the beauty of music is that it is both the source of creation and the means of absorbing it. In other words, by music was the world created, and by music it is withdrawn again into the source which has created it.


Hazrat Inayat Khan (1882-1927) Founder of the Sufi Order in the West


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## InLight-Tone (Aug 3, 2020)

"Music Therapy: Nursing the Music of the Soul"..."The forms of snowflakes and faces of flowers may take on their shape because they are responding to some sound in nature. Likewise, it is possible that crystals, plants, and human beings may be, in some way, music that has taken on visible form."


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## InLight-Tone (Aug 3, 2020)

After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music.
-Aldous Huxley


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## mikeh-375 (Aug 3, 2020)

InLight-Tone said:


> After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music.
> -Aldous Huxley


I liked that so much when I first read it, I put it on my site. It seems to express music very well.


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## GNP (Aug 3, 2020)

"Your Majesty, I admit I am a vulgar, terrible man. 

But I assure you....my music...

........is also kinda vulgar and terrible, heh."


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## Dear Villain (Aug 3, 2020)

JohnG said:


> You obviously don't play the accordion.



I play accordion, and I do have a bunch of chicks around me...my wife, my daughter, a female cat. Seriously though, I had an article written about my accordion/clarinet duo once, with the headline, "the accordion gets you chicks". It's in my e.p.k. 

Dave


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## Thundercat (Aug 3, 2020)

PeterN said:


> I recall the Indian thugs (the historical thugs) as wandering musicians and fakirs murdering people for profit. They were the lowest strata of society, the thugs. Im moslem countries musicians are the outcast people, this is generalized conception, but even the prophet of Islam looked down on music. Buddhism did it as well, it was too wordly - (maya in Sanskrit i.e...) illusion. It was something losers did, or the ones that were not handy enough to fit in anywhere. Look at those blues musicians around war times, dressed in rags, having no tool they know but a guitar, a starved blues player is the conception of any musician, they got that right, its all blues. Look at Woody Guthrie, thin and sick looking man, no wonder he had that tag on his guitar, he had chosen a hobby as a profession. Like us he did that mistake, its a tragedy written all over the face. Overall, in Europe you can see in times of crisis, the musicians are the lowest strata of society, usually thieves and scammers.
> 
> We are all in this together.
> 
> And those of you who are younger, dont do this stupid mistake, learn a tool, but not the guitar. Lay bricks first then lay the instruments if you got free time.


Geez dude no offense but I think you are having an existential crisis. Get a grip man.

guys I think we need to pray for him, not try to convince him of anything.


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## Michael Antrum (Aug 3, 2020)

I know some people who are so poor that all they have is money.

I wish to submit a modern fable that might be of interest.....

*The Fisherman*

The American investment banker was at the pier of a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked. Inside the small boat were several large yellow fin tuna. The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took to catch them.

“Only a little while” the Mexican replied 

The American then asked why didn't he stay out longer and catch more fish? The Mexican said that, as two of the fish were for sale and two for his family to eat, he had enough to support his family's immediate needs.

The American then asked, "but what do you do with the rest of your time?"

The Mexican fisherman said "I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take siesta with my wife Marta, stroll in the village each evening where I sip wine and play guitar with my amigos, I have a full and busy life."

The American scoffed, "I am a Harvard MBA and could help you. You should spend more time fishing and with the proceeds buy a bigger boat, with the proceeds from the bigger boat you could buy several boats, eventually you would have a fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to middlemen you would sell directly to the processor, eventually opening your own cannery. You would control the product, processing and distribution. You would need to leave this small coastal fishing village and move to Mexico City, then LA."

"But then what?"

"Then you would diversify, develop interests in IT, financial services and then eventually move to Geneva where you will run your expanding enterprise."

The Mexican fisherman asked, "But how long will this all take?"

To which the American replied, "15 - 20 years"

"But then what?"

The American laughed and said that's the best part.

"When the time is right you would announce an IPO and sell your company stock to the public and become very rich, you would make millions."

"Millions. Then what?"

The American said, "then you would retire. Move to a small coastal village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siesta with your wife, stroll in the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos."


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## gtrwll (Aug 3, 2020)

If whatever you do enables you to support yourself (and your family if applicable) then that’s far from a loser. You’re providing something of value to others and they’re willing to pay for it.

Doesn’t matter if it’s music, car service or cleaning.

If you can’t support yourself, get another job on the side to get by and learn your craft better so that people start to see value in it.

And whatever you do, enjoy what you’re doing, or work towards what you will enjoy.


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## youngpokie (Aug 3, 2020)

PeterN said:


> this is a fukin crisis bcs ive invested so much in this, two and a half decades almost.



I think the moment when someone realizes that a life-long dream hasn't worked out is sheer agony and unending pain - especially when you worked hard toward it and gave 20 odd years to it. It can completely destroy your self-esteem.

If, as you say, you were told and believed yourself that you had the talent to "make it" and you put in the work, it's inevitable that you would measure your success by the ability to make a living with music and by being recognized by peers and the public for it - and view yourself as a failure in their absence.

A friend of mine since childhood, a professional pianist, had a complete breakdown when he realized his career was going nowhere. It was devastating to him (and all of us close to him), so I know first hand what a terrible thing it can be. I am truly sorry you're going through this.

It's very hard to separate your own self-worth from your success or failure in any field (for reasons mentioned above), especially in something as intangible as art.

But it's something you have to work on. You can't allow this one thing to define you as a person. Stay strong!


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## PeterN (Aug 3, 2020)

InLight-Tone said:


> According to the thinkers of the East, there are five different intoxications: of beauty, youth and strength; then the intoxication of wealth; the third is power, command, the power of ruling; and there is the fourth intoxication, which is the intoxication of learning, of knowledge. But all these four intoxications fade away just like stars before the sun in the presence of the intoxication of music. The reason is that it touches that deepest part of man’s being. Music reaches farther than any other impression from the external world can reach. And the beauty of music is that it is both the source of creation and the means of absorbing it. In other words, by music was the world created, and by music it is withdrawn again into the source which has created it.
> 
> 
> Hazrat Inayat Khan (1882-1927) Founder of the Sufi Order in the West




The day there is war or famine, or a pandemic that gets worse, and you stand there with your snake skin banjo, the knowledge to play it, and how to tweak some plugins, nah, you are fu.ked. Those sweet words of philosophy will have a very bitter taste then, when you are forced to confront life outside existential luxury. There is a reason why parents are dissappointed when kids say they want to be musicians.


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## chimuelo (Aug 3, 2020)

PeterN said:


> heh
> 
> Recently Ive started to see musicians as a bunch of losers, including myself, and this is a fukin crisis bcs ive invested so much in this, two and a half decades almost. Heres the philosophy, sort of. You got people who build cars, people who understand electricity, people who work in hospitals, management, engineering, mining, pilots, military even policemen, yes, and then wtf you got these losers who are grown up adults doing "music". I can accept it as a hobby, like collecting stamps, but not much more than that. Its like those philosophers in ancient greece who were a bunch of lazy men who went to the agora an "philosophise", while the rest of the population was sweating, and their wives were taking care of everything.
> 
> ...




We are all prepared to win, just as we are born knowing nothing but life.

Han from Enter The Dragon
Warner Brothers 1972


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## classified_the_x (Aug 3, 2020)

well, you go from the point of what is an artist contribution to society. Or are artists just manchildren?

my grandfather made a fortune with art. He was a painter and he even had a diplomatic passport. He brought a lot of companies (like Sony and more) to the country I live in. In that sense, besides being successful, he also contributed to my country. (not all of us are americans)

art makes breakthroughts of all sorts in human consciousness and development. think how much a movie you liked influenced you, or how much time you spent listening to a given song.

it's hard to make it at as an artist, and in these days, we need to get validated so we're not considered stoners, or manchildren... but answering your question, no, some artists are not losers and it's possible in my view to make a lot of money off art. Just ask HZ or the successful composers here. At the very least they have fanboys like me who support they work, and are inspired by them.


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## Keith Theodosiou (Aug 3, 2020)

To be honest, when i first read the title of this thread, i though....eh?
I hold all musicians in high regard. To learn a skill that creates such emotions and gives those emotions to others. You don't just pick up a guitar and start playing, you condition yourself to learn the instrument, you practice for hours every day, you are giving yourself knowledge, you are expanding your abilities.
A doctor does the same thing, years of learning, self discipline. The doctor ends up being able to save lives. The musician ends up being able to enhance lives. I have total respect for both.

One day at work, i played one of my pieces to the guys, they all enjoyed it but one.
He said it was nothing special. Fair enough,he has his opinion, then he blew it by saying he could of done better. So i said ok, bring your piece in tomorrow so we can hear it.

He said he wasn't a musician and i said well how the hell can you say you could of done better.

He was trying to be clever in front of the guys.
So i then said to him, when you die, what do you leave the world, what will people remember you for.He didn't have an answer.

I said when i die, i leave behind all my music. It is all over the WORLD WIDE WEB with my name attached to it. That's what i leave the world.

The guys laughed at this bloke till he turned around and walked away. 

So, who was the looser?


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## PeterN (Aug 4, 2020)

hbjdk said:


> Peter, this is getting very theoretical. The last time we saw hostile troops here in Denmark, EU, were at the end of WWII - that is, in 1945. And last famine was long before that.
> 
> As for pandemic, yes, we have a pandemic now, but how many pandemics with the impact of Covid-19 have the world seen, let’s just say since 1945? One - this one. That’s how many (Ebola etc. didn’t cause us to shut down most of our society like Covid-19 has)
> 
> ...



Yea, I do. At least to have knowledge of two things, thats the minimum. If your son says he wants to be a guitar player, say you will support him, but on the condition that he also studies to a carpenter. And he divides that up. This is common sense. Future looks bleak for musicians. They may be the stars of today, but they may as well be the losers of tomorrow. Look at any society under stress and see how high musicians are. Maybe Elvis and Sinatra made it during war times, but thats makes it two. How did the musician do under american depression, there is another potentially behind the corner, anyone not taking this in considedration now is a fool. A loser of the future.


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## cqd (Aug 4, 2020)

Keith Theodosiou said:


> I said when i die, i leave behind all my music. It is all over the WORLD WIDE WEB with my name attached to it. That's what i leave the world.



Yeah.. but like.. how many people are going to listen to it?.. what actual emotional impact is it going to have.. it's surely something to do with the times we're living in at the minute, but like, the internet is flooded with music..a lot of it not very good.. and even the stuff that is very good, like, on this site I've heard some people's output that's just amazing, but like, I don't know if you'd listen to it twice even.. it's the signal to noise ratio thing..

It's definitely something to do with social media though.. everyone is a rockstar/model these days.. like, in the early 2000s there wasn't the abundance of artists was there?..it was still kind of on the fringes of society to play music and stuff (where I am anyway it was..)

You see it with like painting too.. full grown adults with their "Peter's art" page, and they're posting loads of paintings that my 10 year old niece could do..


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Aug 4, 2020)

PeterN said:


> The day there is war or famine, or a pandemic that gets worse, and you stand there with your snake skin banjo, the knowledge to play it, and how to tweak some plugins, nah, you are fu.ked. Those sweet words of philosophy will have a very bitter taste then, when you are forced to confront life outside existential luxury. There is a reason why parents are dissappointed when kids say they want to be musicians.



How's that any different for all and any kinds of chair farters, like bankers, lawyers, management, consultants, and all the other useless fucks who keep on reeling in the big money in times of wealth? I guess cooks, craftspeople and doctors are the only non-useless people in the world.

You also seem to assume that anyone who does music does not have any other background, capabilities or knowledge beyond that.


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## PeterN (Aug 4, 2020)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> How's that any different for all and any kinds of chair farters, like bankers, lawyers, management, consultants, and all the other useless fucks who keep on reeling in the big money in times of wealth? I guess cooks, craftspeople and doctors are the only non-useless people in the world.
> 
> You also seem to assume that anyone who does music does not have any other background, capabilities or knowledge beyond that.



Those people understood life already in the late teens, to make right choices then, smell which way the money winds blow while we were buying a sixpack of beers, thinking how materialistic they are while we focused on "art". Many of them will make it, those people are always among survivors, theyve probably bought gold and land now already to secure future. While we are tweaking plugins and investing in a fukin fabfillter number 4 or something.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Aug 4, 2020)

PeterN said:


> Those people understood life already in the late teens, to make right choices then, smell which way the money winds blow while we were buying a sixpack of beers, thinking how materialistic they are while we focused on "art". Many of them will make it, those people are always among survivors, theyve probably bought gold and land now already to secure future. While we are tweaking plugins and investing in a fukin fabfillter number 4 or something.



Speak for yourself, I guess.  Btw. it's never too late to learn something new.


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## Keith Theodosiou (Aug 4, 2020)

cqd said:


> Yeah.. but like.. how many people are going to listen to it?.. what actual emotional impact is it going to have..


It doesn't matter, it's there and i left it there, if its 3 people or 30 it doesn't matter.
No one knows what emotional impact it will have as everyone has different tastes. 1 person may love it, 30 may not. The point is it's there to be heard and it's something that i put there. If it lasts, great, if it don't, it doesn't matter. If it does last, it's something of me that i left behind when i die.

Everyone seems to try and analize everything thats said on this forum.
Just take it as what it is


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## cqd (Aug 4, 2020)

Keith Theodosiou said:


> It doesn't matter, it's there and i left it there, if its 3 people or 30 it doesn't matter.
> No one knows what emotional impact it will have as everyone has different tastes. 1 person may love it, 30 may not. The point is it's there to be heard and it's something that i put there. If it lasts, great, if it don't, it doesn't matter. If it does last, it's something of me that i left behind when i die.
> 
> Everyone seems to try and analize everything thats said on this forum.
> Just take it as what it is




Hey man..yeah..true..and it's not aimed at you..just a comment on the current state of affairs moreso than anything else..


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## Keith Theodosiou (Aug 4, 2020)

cqd said:


> Hey man..yeah..true..and it's not aimed at you..just a comment on the current state of affairs moreso than anything else..


That's fine, i wasn't having a dig at you, i was just tring to explain how i see things


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## FinGael (Aug 4, 2020)

Keith Theodosiou said:


> A doctor does the same thing, years of learning, self discipline. The doctor ends up being able to save lives. The musician ends up being able to enhance lives. I have total respect for both.



Many years ago, I once got a long letter from a (foreign) person who had made a decision and a plan to end his life. Not a result of a sudden emotional overflow, but a well thought out attempt to end long suffering. He was just about to do it, when he had heard one song of mine.

It opened "the flood gates" in him and he had cried out a lot of the emotional pain he had been carrying inside. It touched something so deeply in him, that he decided to change his life completely. And he did it; when I last heard of him he was living a content and happy life.

What is better than that? I still feel grateful of what happened, and the fact that I have the priviledge to be involved with the wonderful beauty and mystery of music (and other forms of art too!).


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## Keith Theodosiou (Aug 4, 2020)

FinGael said:


> Many years ago, I once got a long letter from a (foreign) person who had made a decision and a plan to end his life. Not a result of a sudden emotional overflow, but a well thought out attempt to end long suffering. He was just about to do it, when he had heard one song of mine.
> 
> It opened "the flood gates" in him and he had cried out a lot of the emotional pain he had been carrying inside. It touched something so deeply in him, that he decided to change his life completely. And he did it; when I last heard of him he was living a content and happy life.
> 
> What is better than that? I still feel grateful of what happened, and the fact that I have the priviledge to be involved with the wonderful mystery of music (and other forms of art too!).


A true inspirational story!!

Appart from Love, i can't think of anything else that can really touch a Human Being like music.

Well done!


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## Locks (Aug 4, 2020)

PeterN said:


> Those people understood life already in the late teens, to make right choices then, smell which way the money winds blow while we were buying a sixpack of beers, thinking how materialistic they are while we focused on "art". Many of them will make it, those people are always among survivors, theyve probably bought gold and land now already to secure future. While we are tweaking plugins and investing in a fukin fabfillter number 4 or something.



Are you feeling stressed about financial security Peter? Might be worth seeing a financial adviser if this is getting you down. Hope you're okay mate.


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## Keith Theodosiou (Aug 4, 2020)

When i was in my teens, i was in a pub band. While we where doing the circuit, we got to know another band, they used to come and watch us and we used to go and watch them.

One day, only one of the band members turned up and he told us they where in an accident in their van.Everyone was alive but the bassist lost his left arm up to his shoulder.
We went to see him in hospital. That is one thing i never want to experience in my life again.

To see him in that bed knowing he will never be able to play again. That look on his face.
I will never forget that.

The drummer of Def Leppard, same thing but he fought on and devised a way that he could carry on playing drums. That guy is no looser, he is an inspiration.


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## Alex Fraser (Aug 4, 2020)

PeterN said:


> Do you get over this thought, or is this road the road to be doomed? Even a one handed lumberjack does more good for society when it comes to profession.


I know the thought process and I think the same when I'm working on a bit of music and I see the bin men come to collect the trash. That they're contributing more to the community and society than I am.

So what do I contribute? Well, the basics. Pay taxes, keep a roof over the family. That's how I justify it. My children are comfortable. My work allows them a space to grow and one day contribute to the world in their own way. 

*Are musicians failed people? *Well, IMO, if you're the sort of musician who records 5 tracks every decade and complains that people "don't understand your vision"...then probably, yes. 😉


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## PeterN (Aug 4, 2020)

FinGael said:


> Many years ago, I once got a long letter from a (foreign) person who had made a decision and a plan to end his life. Not a result of a sudden emotional overflow, but a well thought out attempt to end long suffering. He was just about to do it, when he had heard one song of mine.
> 
> It opened "the flood gates" in him and he had cried out a lot of the emotional pain he had been carrying inside. It touched something so deeply in him, that he decided to change his life completely. And he did it; when I last heard of him he was living a content and happy life.
> 
> What is better than that? I still feel grateful of what happened, and the fact that I have the priviledge to be involved with the wonderful beauty and mystery of music (and other forms of art too!).



A friend of mine was in similar situation. We suggested he gets a real job and starts one step at a pace. Quit any drugs, daydreaming, alcohol or sitting meditating to some fukin bob marley as an adult man. Tweaking some mid size eq was out of the question too. He learned bricklaying and started to get his life together. Last time we saw him he was jogging with a dog and very satisfied about life.


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## classified_the_x (Aug 4, 2020)

musicians may not doing so much to contribute besides developing crafts, pushing art forward and inspiring ppl. but why do u care? is this a kibbutz? are you paying for the musicians bills? do you want him to be working for you for free? 

by picking on what musicians do you're not respecting free will and individual liberties imo


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## PeterN (Aug 4, 2020)

classified_the_x said:


> musicians may not doing so much to contribute besides developing crafts, pushing art forward and inspiring ppl. but why do u care? is this a kibbutz? are you paying for the musicians bills? do you want him to be working for you for free?
> 
> by picking on what musicians do you're not respecting free will and individual liberties imo



Was that to me? No, its not the intention, I think over-emphazising the role of the musician/composer is something that every musician should try to contemplate. That is, if they have the ability. But when the next depression kicks in, the harsh reality will fall like a thnder from the sky, esp. on those who dont get it yet. Seeing the musician as a loser, to balance out the narcissm or dreams about stardom, is reality. Yes, you can layer instruments, but maybe your neighbor cam layer a skyscraper on his or her desktop, sell it to real estate, now that is pretty fukin cool too. The real star is the guy in the small garage who fixes the motorcycle in the August heat, not necessarily the guy who can make a rap beat.


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## classified_the_x (Aug 4, 2020)

PeterN said:


> Was that to me? No, its not the intention, I think over-emphazising the role of the musician/composer is something that every musician should try to contemplate. That is, if they have the ability. But when the next depression kicks in, the harsh reality will fall like a thnder from the sky, esp. on those who dont get it yet. Seeing the musician as a loser, to balance out the narcissm or dreams about stardom, is reality. Yes, you can layer instruments, but maybe your neighbor cam layer a skyscraper on his or her desktop, sell it to real estate, now that is pretty fukin cool too. The real star is the guy in the small garage who fixes the motorcycle in the August heat, not necessarily the guy who can make a rap beat.



no, it was just a general answer in the sense we don't owe anything to anyone as musicians really, and individual freedoms grant us that right.

I have many abilities besides music, like computer hardware, software, law, networks, web design. There is a niche for everyone, specially with the Youtube democracy, but downplaying artistic importance is just what totalitarian governments do. Trust me because I live in a country where the government absolutely hates culture. Next step is burning all books like the chinese did...


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## JohnG (Aug 4, 2020)

It seems as though some people are perilously close to implying (or outright arguing) that the measure of a composer is how many people he reaches (social media included) and whether or not he makes a living at music alone.

Rubbish.

How much did Dante make for writing The Divine Comedy? Does anybody know? How much did Milton get for Paradise Lost? I'm guessing not much. In more modern times, Robert Graves never made much from his poetry; as famous as he was, I don't think Thomas Hardy did either (he made money from his novels and I think he had a farm or something).

I (we) don't do this 'for the money.' Who would? Anyone diligent, intelligent, and tenacious enough to create music could, alternatively, make a tidy living (with much less uncertainty) as a finance person or in medicine somewhere.

I do it because (as I've written) I can't help it. It's crazy. We don't get parades, we don't get adulation. If we find a foothold we can make good money, but most people don't. The reasons we do get hired are as arbitrary as the reasons we don't.

*Why Do We "Fail?"*

So, if you do want to succeed (on the money/fame/touching other people axis), what should you do? Probably, you already know. Then, ask yourself, "Am I doing those things, or avoiding them because I don't want to / find them distasteful / rather come up with another melody?"

*No Matter What, You Have to Sell*

Most younger composers seem to focus on music / tech skills to the exclusion of those pesky 'selling' chops.

Maybe no wonder, because the minimum music skills needed presents a daunting array. To compose these days, here's a list just off the top of my head:

_Production_

1. Master 2, 5, 10 different pieces of complex software;
2. Learn to mix (enough);
3. Set up and troubleshoot one or many computers so they're in sync;
4. Learn to orchestrate or establish how to work with an orchestrator / copyist;
5. (maybe) conduct;
6. (maybe) produce;
....

Look at that list ^. I didn't even include the composing bit. It used to be that we had people who specialised in many of those tasks, but you just can't expect that now. And that's only the _music_ part of it.

Apart from those skills, you need to:

_Sales and Marketing_

1. CALL YOUR FRIENDS and be entertaining -- don't moan;
2. Learn to operate or at least maintain a website;
3. Learn to meet people who might hire you -- find them and learn to appeal to what they actually want (hint: it's not "a musical genius");
4. Work on a social media presence (maybe? IDK);
5. Maintain your health / appearance so you don't become Jabba the Hut and ruin your family's life by dying or being miserable.
....

My guess is that most people focus on the first list -- the 'music skills' -- to the detriment of the second list. That is backwards, alas. Just listen to the radio / Spotify playlists / TV. There is very little music that's genuinely incompetent, but also very little that's actually inspired.

*Do It*

So? Do what you know you should do, and balance your music skill pursuits with calling up friends, talking about something other than your career (nobody wants to hear that) and -- here's one: being cheerful. Most directors would rather discuss where they get surfboard wax, how to invest in real estate, or the state of their toenails than music -- anything but music -- so cultivate your other spheres and have something to say that doesn't induce in the hearer the urgent need to hang up / "my Zoom call's coming in, sorry..."

Call your college buddies and catch up. Who knows what they are doing? Who knows who they know?


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## Keith Theodosiou (Aug 4, 2020)

I'll tell you what. I am going to answer the question in the title to this thread.

Q:Are musicians failed people?

A:No.

Why would they be? 
Because they can play an instrument?

So that means, if you can't play an instrument, you are a success person?

Maybe the title is the wrong sort of question to ask.

I was going to go through history and find a load of hugely succesful people that happen to be musicians too but i can't be arsed so here is just one lol
This is why the title of this post is wrong.

Edward Heath. British Prime Minister. Pianist, Organist and conductor.

There will be hundreds in history.

A musician cannot be classed as a failed person. 
If you are classing a failed person as somone that does not contibute to Humanity, there will be thousands of proffesions that don't either.

What would you class as a contribution to Humanity? 

If you feel that YOU as a musician is a failed person, then that's fine but that doesn't mean ALL musicians are failed people.

What does that even mean? A failed person. 
Man No1 "Oh, that guy over there is a failed person!

Man No2 "Why, what did he do wrong?"

Man No1 "I just found out he's a musician!!"

Man No2 "Oh shit man! That's just so low of him!"

Man No1 "Yyyyyup!"


Do you think that was a bit silly what i posted here or is the title just a bit OTT


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## classified_the_x (Aug 4, 2020)

JohnG said:


> 5. Maintain your health / appearance so you don't become Jabba the Hut and ruin your family's life by dying or being miserable.
> ....



that was the best quote of the day lol.. made me giggle. I used to run 10 km (6 miles) everyday and lift about 100kg. then I broke my rib last november and been trying to keep my weight. adopting a fast workflow stops me from going back to running but after reading the Jabba the Hut prospect I might go for it


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## JohnG (Aug 4, 2020)

Keith Theodosiou said:


> Man No1 "Oh, that guy over there is a failed person!
> 
> Man No2 "Why, what did he do wrong?"
> 
> Man No1 "I just found out he's a musician!!"



@Keith Theodosiou you make me chuckle. And you're right that you need to learn other things; you can't escape that some day you'll retire and you need to learn something about investing, insurance, all that. 

Some people get a real estate license, some do other stuff. As you wrote, music doesn't have to be all or nothing, though not sure history has been kind to Edward Heath!

And not to neglect volunteering, as long as you've raised the 'helping humanity' axis too?


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## Daryl (Aug 4, 2020)

I'm trying to think if I'm a failed person or not. Hmmmm.... Certainly professionally I haven't failed. Financially I haven't failed. I have friends and a great partner. I have transferable skills, should I wish to use them. I have hobbies. I can "retire" any time I like.

Maybe I'm not the sort of person the OP thinks of as a "musician".


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## Keith Theodosiou (Aug 4, 2020)

JohnG said:


> @Keith Theodosiou you make me chuckle. And you're right that you need to learn other things; you can't escape that some day you'll retire and you need to learn something about investing, insurance, all that.
> 
> Some people get a real estate license, some do other stuff. As you wrote, music doesn't have to be all or nothing, though not sure history has been kind to Edward Heath!
> 
> And not to neglect volunteering, as long as you've raised the 'helping humanity' axis too?


Well being a Prime Minister of Britain ain't gonna go all your way no matter who you are lol.

Still, the title of the thread is a bit odd though if you think about it. What is a failed person?

Even the looser bit doesn't make sense. Not many proffesions do work that benefits the human race for that reason. They get work to support and feed their families. Some people may decide to become a doctoe cos they know it pays shitloads of money. I knew a dentist that did that. Now he drives around in flashy cars and a huge house. He don't give a shit about the health of your mouth.

He spent eight years or however long it takes from when he left school to train to be a dentist cos he knew that his future would be flashy cars and a huge house. He talks down to people, he thinks he's above everyone else that isn't in his wealth bracket.
He is the kind of person that if you spoke to him, within a few minutes, you want to punch him on the nose lmao.

Is H Zimmer a failed person? Is J Williams a failed person? No, they became musicians first then managed to make a succsessful career from it and they are now sitting pretty and if they read this thread, they would probably have a good laugh.


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## classified_the_x (Aug 4, 2020)

KSHMR Masterclass on how he made as major EDM musician. He says he became a bum for sometime, and recommends people to drop safe alternatives in favour of going for the dream... Be a bum, he said. I find that relevant...Of course he's from LA, and he was already making beats for some ppl... good advice nonetheless


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## cqd (Aug 4, 2020)

Ok..Sorry..but loser is spelled loser..


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## Keith Theodosiou (Aug 4, 2020)

cqd said:


> Ok..Sorry..but loser is spelled loser..


Who cares how it's spelt??? I type fast and i didn't notice, big deal!!!


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## mc_deli (Aug 4, 2020)

Most people I know are failed musicians.

(Someone might already have said this, apologies)


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## Keith Theodosiou (Aug 4, 2020)

mc_deli said:


> Most people I know are failed musicians.
> 
> (Someone might already have said this, apologies)


There is a difference between a failed musician and a failed person.
I'm a failed musician, that just means i failed to make it in the music bussiness that was my goal as a youngster. I'm not a failed person though.


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## Keith Theodosiou (Aug 4, 2020)

cqd said:


> Ok..Sorry..but loser is spelled loser..


By the way, if you want to say..."loser is spelled loser," then you would say "loser is spelt loser" so if you are going to correct someone, make sure you get the phrasing right


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## Loïc D (Aug 4, 2020)

Robo Rivard said:


> Haha, this poll should make you feel better...
> People like telemarketers better than artists!



This is pretty unfair.

I’m business consultant and I should be on top of the list !

What a disappointment...


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Aug 4, 2020)

Keith Theodosiou said:


> Now he drives around in flashy cars and a huge house.


You mean, like, a mobile home? 

(sorry was too tempting! )


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## Keith Theodosiou (Aug 4, 2020)

hbjdk said:


> You mean, like, a mobile home?
> 
> (sorry was too tempting! )


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Aug 4, 2020)

Keith Theodosiou said:


> By the way, if you want to say..."loser is spelled loser," then you would say "loser is spelt loser" so if you are going to correct someone, make sure you get the phrasing right







__





Spelled or Spelt—Which Is Correct?


The verb spell commonly means to write or name the letters making up a word in the right…




www.grammarly.com


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## Keith Theodosiou (Aug 4, 2020)

hbjdk said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I will post the address of my old school (if it's still there) and you can email them this link.


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## Locks (Aug 4, 2020)

classified_the_x said:


> He says he became a bum for sometime, and recommends people to drop safe alternatives in favour of going for the dream...



I don't think this advice from KSHMR is very good. The "drop everything follow your dreams and you'll find success" advice is one that is consistently touted but it's strongly driven by survivorship bias and will lead a lot of people to poor outcomes. I don't want to be a downer on dream-chasing, but it's important to understand the odds you face and the consequences of the risk you're taking. You also need to accept the possibility of failure. If the outcome of failure would fill you with an existential dread then it may be best to reassess your approach. You’re not the first person to be driven and passionate about your goal.

But there are other longer and more winding paths you can take toward the same goal. I remember a talk by Elizabeth Gilbert where she made a case for pursuing your dreams in a manner that left you with transferable skills, a safety net and the freedom to honour other responsibilities. It's not always wise to blindly go all in. Especially in a country like the one KSHMR is from where people are typically one unfortunate event away from poverty.


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## Robo Rivard (Aug 4, 2020)

“If you're going to try, go all the way.
Otherwise, don't even start. This could mean losing girlfriends, wives, relatives and maybe even your mind. It could mean not eating for three or four days. It could mean freezing on a park bench. It could mean jail. It could mean derision. It could mean mockery--isolation. Isolation is the gift. All the others are a test of your endurance, of how much you really want to do it. And, you'll do it, despite rejection and the worst odds. And it will be better than anything else you can imagine. If you're going to try, go all the way. There is no other feeling like that. You will be alone with the gods, and the nights will flame with fire. You will ride life straight to perfect laughter. It's the only good fight there is.”
~ Charles Bukowski


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## classified_the_x (Aug 4, 2020)

Locks said:


> I don't think this advice from KSHMR is very good. The "drop everything follow your dreams and you'll find success" advice is one that is consistently touted but it's strongly driven by survivorship bias and will lead a lot of people to poor outcomes. I don't want to be a downer on dream-chasing, but it's important to understand the odds you face and the consequences of the risk you're taking. You also need to accept the possibility of failure. If the outcome of failure would fill you with an existential dread then it may be best to reassess your approach. You’re not the first person to be driven and passionate about your goal.
> 
> But there are other longer and more winding paths you can take toward the same goal. I remember a talk by Elizabeth Gilbert where she made a case for pursuing your dreams in a manner that left you with transferable skills, a safety net and the freedom to honour other responsibilities. It's not always wise to blindly go all in. Especially in a country like the one KSHMR is from where people are typically one unfortunate event away from poverty.



I get you, indeed it sounds a bit reckless in a way. As I said, he was already an established beatmaker in LA. The grass is always greener on the other side...

I went the bum road in the sense that to my acquaintances and family I'm doing music now. That's what I do for them, although I have other income sources... To many, being a musician in front of society feels like a shame. Specially when over 35, and not making money... KSHMR for instance is like 33...


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## Locks (Aug 4, 2020)

classified_the_x said:


> I get you, indeed it sounds a bit reckless in a way. As I said, he was already an established beatmaker in LA. The grass is always greener on the other side...
> 
> I went the bum road in the sense that to my acquaintances and family I'm doing music now. That's what I do for them, although I have other income sources... To many, being a musician in front of society feels like a shame. Specially when over 35, and not making money... KSHMR for instance is like 33...



Music and the arts in general, is a very difficult pursuit in a society that does not value it as a worthwhile endeavour. I find it a shame. Without culture and artistic expression, what's even is the point of everything we've built?


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## patrick76 (Aug 4, 2020)

Robo Rivard said:


> “If you're going to try, go all the way.
> Otherwise, don't even start. This could mean losing girlfriends, wives, relatives and maybe even your mind. It could mean not eating for three or four days. It could mean freezing on a park bench. It could mean jail. It could mean derision. It could mean mockery--isolation. Isolation is the gift. All the others are a test of your endurance, of how much you really want to do it. And, you'll do it, despite rejection and the worst odds. And it will be better than anything else you can imagine. If you're going to try, go all the way. There is no other feeling like that. You will be alone with the gods, and the nights will flame with fire. You will ride life straight to perfect laughter. It's the only good fight there is.”
> ~ Charles Bukowski


Nice Bukowski quote. I do want to point out though that he was famously employed as a postal worker and worked very hard writing during that same time.


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## Locks (Aug 4, 2020)

patrick76 said:


> Nice Bukowski quote. I do want to point out though that he was famously employed as a postal worker and worked very hard writing during that same time.



He was also very aware that he was taking a bold risk.

"_I have one of two choices – stay in the post office and go crazy ... or stay out here and play at writer and starve. I have decided to starve_." - Charles Bukowski


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## jononotbono (Aug 4, 2020)

PeterN said:


> Future looks bleak for musicians.



I don’t think this way at all. There is more music work now than there ever has been. Earning money from music has never been easy. And writing great music is even harder.


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## Robo Rivard (Aug 4, 2020)

"No more wasted years, no more wasted tears
Life's too short to cry, long enough to try"
-Helloween, "March of Time"


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## patrick76 (Aug 4, 2020)

_So understand
Don't waste your time always searching for those wasted years
Face up... make your stand
And realize you're living in the golden years_ 
- Iron Maiden, "Wasted Years"

I like this quote section of the thread.


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## Stringtree (Aug 4, 2020)

Thanks for the earworm.


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## Stringtree (Aug 4, 2020)

It was middle age bedtime. Now it’s Heavy Metal Parking Lot.


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## classified_the_x (Aug 4, 2020)

Locks said:


> He was also very aware that he was taking a bold risk.
> 
> "_I have one of two choices – stay in the post office and go crazy ... or stay out here and play at writer and starve. I have decided to starve_." - Charles Bukowski



I remember on a psychedelic trip once I said to friends, Art and empathy, is all there is left for us.

Now they want to label us as vagabonds and make us hate everybody. And take their trash away too, to be worthy. Lol. Just kidding on that last one.


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## Robo Rivard (Aug 4, 2020)

I've been playing drums since I was 16... But then I heard THIS, and I knew musicians could never be failures. So I kept going, for better or for worst.


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## patrick76 (Aug 4, 2020)

Stringtree said:


> It was middle age bedtime. Now it’s Heavy Metal Parking Lot.



This is wonderful. Decline of Western Civilization Part 2.5


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## Locks (Aug 4, 2020)

This one feels appropriate for the conversation.


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## Loek Mulders (Aug 4, 2020)

Music is underated In the modern world.
It can make you feel something.
And if you feel a certain way and start composing/playing, your music is going to sound like your feeling.
It can be a better language then any words.

If you enjoyed playing it, then it was worth it.
If one other person enjoyed it, then it was double worth it.


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## PeterN (Aug 5, 2020)

Bukowski, what a "loser hero" which is quite character. You are this, sort of, "hero" type on the loser scale, and "poet", drinking your way through life. Although I can sort of sympathise with him as he shares this same tragic character most of us do: the loser character. If I didnt have a heart issue I would probably have done the same, give up life and drink the way through it, loser as I am. Thats what we losers do. And why is Bukowski seen as great american poet, why is not e.g. Ezra Pound, who, at least, was fluent in several languages and at did some brain work. Why is that trash personified as something special.

Someone questioned is Woody Guthrie a "loser", yes he was, a total loser. I took him as example as he was a musician when times were tougher, (something that can happen again) and supposedly one of most influential characters on western american music (or whatever). You have an adult man playing guitar, while rest of the men are out building ranches. Bitter loser who wrote on his guitar how it "kills fascists", i.e. all those adult men who did not play guitar in a smoky tavern and actually tried to build a healthy living.

It makes sense Jimi Hendrix has a monument in a zoo. Isnt is a fukin stone there as a jimi hendrix monument In seattle zoo. Whoever made that decision did a good job.

I was looking out over the ocean today and pondering why the f I didnt study to an engineer who cleans water. Something useful.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Aug 5, 2020)

Midlife crisis is what they used to call it.


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## mikeh-375 (Aug 5, 2020)

[email protected], Peter, have you thought about simply studying music to a further extent than you have already, raise your bar, learn what is missing. Injecting some impetus and purpose into your musical know-how will give you a goal and might act as an antidote to the negativity..."knowledge maketh a man"


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## Daryl (Aug 5, 2020)

Without wishing to denigrate anyone's efforts, there are always people who say that they have been unlucky in not becoming successful. Whilst there can certainly be an element of luck in getting a break, one more often finds out that the people concerned just haven't put any time into learning to be any good. There can be short cuts, but there are no guaranteed short cuts.


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## Keith Theodosiou (Aug 5, 2020)

Locks said:


> Music and the arts in general, is a very difficult pursuit in a society that does not value it as a worthwhile endeavour. I find it a shame. Without culture and artistic expression, what's even is the point of everything we've built?


Mmmm, tell you what, take away music from society, take away art from society, take away actors/performers from society = no live concerts, no live theatre, no tv, no cinema, no art galleries.

What will society do then?
They will sit on their sofa's staring at the walls twiddling their thumbs.

I think society does know the value of the arts, they just don't admit it


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## Mattia Chiappa (Aug 5, 2020)

While I'm too constantly battling with existential crisis like this, I often try to think how bland and boring the world would be without art in it. It's the most sincere form of human expression and it was born way before we even had proper tools to produce it.


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## Keith Theodosiou (Aug 5, 2020)

Mattia Chiappa said:


> While I'm too constantly battling with existential crisis like this, I often try to think how bland and boring the world would be without art in it. It's the most sincere form of human expression and it was born way before we even had proper tools to produce it.


Exactly, it has been in the Human instinct from day one. Banging sticks on fallen tree trunks while chanting and drawing pictures of Bison, Antelope and Wooly Mammoth on their cave walls.


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## mikeh-375 (Aug 5, 2020)

Daryl said:


> Without wishing to denigrate anyone's efforts, there are always people who say that they have been unlucky in not becoming successful. Whilst there can certainly be an element of luck in getting a break, one more often finds out that the people concerned just haven't put any time into learning to be any good. There can be short cuts, but there are no guaranteed short cuts.



Related to this is the idea (an idea that is also a constant bludgeon and background to the general psyche), that one can for example appear on a show like Pop Idol or The Voice or any other 'talent' show, win and instantly become a superstar, all because mommy or friends think one can do something better than they can. The fault in these programmes and their tenet as far as I can tell, is that they nurture a mistaken belief that all that is needed is raw talent for instant success, which in effect implies bypassing the work required to hone that talent into something more focused and unique.

This nowadays generally applicable mindset, is a major issue and related to the idea that dreams come true. Of course, some will find success and luck will also play a big role, but the adverse effects of an instant success paradigm on personal development could well be significant.

I wonder how many 'winners' of these shows, who after an initial CD release at Xmas and a first flush of admiration, are now mentally scarred and less happy than when they where singing in the pub to a karaoke machine.

Stardom is fickle, random and almost certainly not guaranteed. Much better to improve oneself to the best you can be because in the doing of such, there is a sense of achievement, pride and just maybe, worth.


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## FinGael (Aug 5, 2020)

Existential crisis can be a good thing. Can't see anything too bad in questioning things. But ok, let me change to a bigger brush. I think that one root problem to all of this is that the world, according to humans, revolves around us.

It's the opposite to what I experience in the nature. I am a nature photographer and cinematographer, been doing this for a long time, and when I go to nature I feel and sense in my being how everything is connected and alive. I go there mostly alone, because many of the people I know just want to use nature to get something for themselves.

I don't blame them - used to do it myself too, but fortunately managed to open a door to something better. It has lead to magnificent experiences, including friendships (nothing less really!) with wild animals and so on. When I watch trees or flowers, I don't think of winners and losers. All I hear and see is a symphony of life. Yes, nature can seem cruel too, but in my experience there is a reason for everything happening.

I think it is a sobering thought to think that we are not the center of this world. This whole winner-loser mentality is strongly related to us thinking that we are the supreme and dominant force here and that we have the right to do anything for our pleasure - no matter what it costs. Being fueled by the ego makes us lose the connection to ourselves and to deeper meanings in/of life, and makes one suffer and treat other people and our environment badly.

The happiest moments in my journey have generally been the ones where I have the least been thinking of me and my part in all of it.

Learning to listen to inner wisdom and heart can in my eyes be as important as being reasonable. There are many paths. Follow the one that works.

It is difficult for me to think who is more valuable; an engineer, doctor, poet or a musician. To me it is more about how you do, what are the motivating factors and what one is as a human being. In my thinking becoming a better human being should be the goal - no matter what you do. Beautiful people create meaningful things. There is a place for other things too, but I feel that since the industrial revolution the importance of beauty has been downplayed and the concept of it has become something else and much more shallow. Like Vangelis said, the world needs more beauty. It can awake us to find our place in this totality of life in a meaningful way. After reaching that you can concentrate on what you find important.

Just my two cents. Feel free to disagree.


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## averystemmler (Aug 5, 2020)

PeterN said:


> Its like those philosophers in ancient greece who were a bunch of lazy men who went to the agora an "philosophise", while the rest of the population was sweating, and their wives were taking care of everything.



Yet, for some reason, I have a book by Plato sitting on my shelf, while the combined works of all his contemporary lumberjacks and carpenters have rotted away into dust millennia ago. For whatever reason, the products of his lazy profession have been considered by mankind to be so meaningful that they've been preserved, word for word, and taught to children for generations. I could say similar things about Bach, or any other musician we've ever heard of.

Nothing has any intrinsic meaning. Most things will be forgotten. It's possible that _everything_ will eventually be forgotten in the heat death of the universe (and, funnily, the theoretical physicists who arrived at that notion are the lazy philosophers of our age). We can ascribe meaning wherever we please as long as we're here, but it will always look silly to those who disagree.


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## Locks (Aug 5, 2020)

FinGael said:


> Existential crisis can be a good thing. Can't see anything too bad in questioning things. But ok, let me change to a bigger brush. I think that one root problem to all of this is that the world, according to humans, revolves around us.
> 
> It's the opposite to what I experience in the nature. I am a nature photographer and cinematographer, been doing this for a long time, and when I go to nature I feel and sense in my being how everything is connected and alive. I go there mostly alone, because many of the people I know just want to use nature to get something for themselves.
> 
> ...



Well said! A lot of wisdom there.


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## classified_the_x (Aug 5, 2020)

PeterN said:


> Someone questioned is Woody Guthrie a "loser", yes he was, a total loser. I took him as example as he was a musician when times were tougher, (something that can happen again) and supposedly one of most influential characters on western american music (or whatever). You have an adult man playing guitar, while rest of the men are out building ranches. Bitter loser who wrote on his guitar how it "kills fascists", i.e. all those adult men who did not play guitar in a smoky tavern and actually tried to build a healthy living.



How many men did business bulding houses and stuff only to fail and/or go broke? Then someone with the same mindset as you calls them loser.

It's all about the mindset. Artists, even those that left a mark such as Bukowski are losers to you, but the guy serving you at the restaurant is not. Seems like your whole mindset exists to make you feel better. Just something to think about.


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## Fredeke (Aug 7, 2020)

PeterN said:


> heh
> 
> Recently Ive started to see musicians as a bunch of losers, including myself, and this is a fukin crisis bcs ive invested so much in this, two and a half decades almost. Heres the philosophy, sort of. You got people who build cars, people who understand electricity, people who work in hospitals, management, engineering, mining, pilots, military even policemen, yes, and then wtf you got these losers who are grown up adults doing "music". I can accept it as a hobby, like collecting stamps, but not much more than that. Its like those philosophers in ancient greece who were a bunch of lazy men who went to the agora an "philosophise", while the rest of the population was sweating, and their wives were taking care of everything.
> 
> ...


I think maybe you overlooked some other important part of your life and (possibly rightfully) blame it on music. Tell us (or yourself)... what is really missing?

Me, I have no kid of my own because for a long time it didn't interest me. My drives were music, lust, and freedom. Now I am with a wonderful woman but she's of no age to have more kids, so I try to be the best stepdad I can to her 10 year old. If it weren't for that, I would consider having missed a crucial part of life entirely.

I guess it can be something different for each of us.

(and yeah, my avatar's photo dates a bit)


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## jsg (Aug 7, 2020)

PeterN said:


> heh
> 
> Recently Ive started to see musicians as a bunch of losers, including myself, and this is a fukin crisis bcs ive invested so much in this, two and a half decades almost. Heres the philosophy, sort of. You got people who build cars, people who understand electricity, people who work in hospitals, management, engineering, mining, pilots, military even policemen, yes, and then wtf you got these losers who are grown up adults doing "music". I can accept it as a hobby, like collecting stamps, but not much more than that. Its like those philosophers in ancient greece who were a bunch of lazy men who went to the agora an "philosophise", while the rest of the population was sweating, and their wives were taking care of everything.
> 
> ...



Well, you're probably going through a frustrating time, but consider that the arts are, or can be, as important as any other human activity. Learning how to take seriously that which is serious and not take things too seriously is part of acquiring wisdom. Aging makes wisdom possible, but by no means guarantees it, which explains why some people grow old with a joyful sense of gratitude and peace, and some become more embittered, disillusioned and unhappy. I think of the work I do as important work, but "I" am not important, my ego is not important, what is important is the effort, the achievement, the learning and growing that living creatively requires. If you take the self out of it, the joy increases.

I don't base my self-worth on just being a composer although I find great satisfaction and joy in composing music. I am also a husband, a father, a community member, a citizen, a friend, a family member--and these are as much about who I am as being a musician. I think we often can get stuck in roles, and take that role too seriously at the expense of other aspects of life. Having a successful career is one thing, having a successful life is quite another. The two are not incompatible at all, but the latter requires a more balanced and comprehensive development.

We need artists and philosophers as much as we need doctors and auto mechanics. In the immature, music can be nothing more than an expression of narcissistic vanity, but a wise, mature musician may acquire insight into the nature of artistic expression that can point toward the universal, the infinite and the essence of meaning. We humans need meaning and purpose as much as we need air and food and music certainly can offer that.

A world without music, poetry, literature and the arts in general would be a pretty drab world. Here's a poem by Rudyard Kipling, called "If":


_If you can keep your head when all about you 
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you, 
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too; 
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream—and not make dreams your master; 
If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim; 
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same; 
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone, 
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, 
Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run, 
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it, 
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!_


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## PeterN (Aug 7, 2020)

jsg said:


> Well, you're probably going through a frustrating time, but consider that the arts are, or can be, as important as any other human activity. Learning how to take seriously that which is serious and not take things too seriously is part of acquiring wisdom. Aging makes wisdom possible, but by no means guarantees it, which explains why some people grow old with a joyful sense of gratitude and peace, and some become more embittered, disillusioned and unhappy. I think of the work I do as important work, but "I" am not important, my ego is not important, what is important is the effort, the achievement, the learning and growing that living creatively requires. If you take the self out of it, the joy increases.
> 
> I don't base my self-worth on just being a composer although I find great satisfaction and joy in composing music. I am also a brother, a father, a husband, a community member, a citizen, a friend, a family member--and these are as much about who I am as being a musician. I think we often can get stuck in roles, and take that role too seriously at the expense of other aspects of life. Having a successful career is one thing, having a successful life is quite another. The two are not incompatible at all, but the latter requires a more balanced and comprehensive development.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the Kipling poem. Good words too. Btw, I know Kipling very well, been in his footsteps from Mandalay to Moulmein, and read a lot about him. You must be English to come up with a Kipling poem. He is probably canceled soon, so it was wise to pull it out now, while you still can. Read him now before them books are gone. Even Orwell called him imperial.


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## jsg (Aug 7, 2020)

PeterN said:


> Thanks for the Kipling poem. Good words too. Btw, I know Kipling very well, been in his footsteps from Mandalay to Moulmein, and read a lot about him. You must be English to come up with a Kipling poem. He is probably canceled soon, so it was wise to pull it out now, while you still can. Read him now before them books are gone. Even Orwell called him imperial.



No, not English, I'm American, but familiar with some English poetry. Why did Orwell call Kipling imperial?


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## PeterN (Aug 7, 2020)

jsg said:


> No, not English, I'm American, but familiar with some English poetry. Why did Orwell call Kipling imperial?



You dont need help to find that one out


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## Rtomproductions (Aug 7, 2020)

PeterN said:


> heh
> 
> Recently Ive started to see musicians as a bunch of losers, including myself, and this is a fukin crisis bcs ive invested so much in this, two and a half decades almost. Heres the philosophy, sort of. You got people who build cars, people who understand electricity, people who work in hospitals, management, engineering, mining, pilots, military even policemen, yes, and then wtf you got these losers who are grown up adults doing "music". I can accept it as a hobby, like collecting stamps, but not much more than that. Its like those philosophers in ancient greece who were a bunch of lazy men who went to the agora an "philosophise", while the rest of the population was sweating, and their wives were taking care of everything.
> 
> ...



Those "lazy philosophers" developed (I would argue discovered) the laws of logic and principles of reason that eventually became the bedrock of the Enlightenment, without which science, western democratic systems of government, and the robust moral systems by which we structure our societies would have never manifested in the world.

So nah, I certainly wouldn't call philosophers "useless people." Now musicians on the other hand...

J/k. I do this for a living, but I also have degrees in biology and philosophy (ha!) to fall back on if my current business goes south. That said, while people could survive biologically without music, societies certainly wouldn't thrive without it. We are hardwired with the need for artistic consumption. So yeah, musicians have, do, and always will have a perfectly functional place in society. That said, I think it's still good for individuals to be well-rounded. If you're a professional composer but can't change your oil, well, that's a problem


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## jsg (Aug 7, 2020)

PeterN said:


> You dont need help to find that one out
> [/QUOTE
> 
> I just looked it up. I wasn't aware that Kipling was such a staunch nationalist. No wonder Orwell was critical of him. Well, we all have our weaknesses and blind-spots. "If" is still a good poem..


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## PeterN (Aug 7, 2020)

Rtomproductions said:


> If you're a professional composer but can't change your oil, well, that's a problem



Well, I think about 98% musicians are losers, and unfortunately - so far, I include myself there. But it will be temporary. Where there is a will there is a way.


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## Keith Theodosiou (Aug 7, 2020)

Well, to be honest, if the majority of the worlds population classes musicians as a loser, then there is only one thing left to say....

I am a loser and i'm bloody proud of it!


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## pmountford (Aug 8, 2020)

PeterN said:


> Well, I think about 98% musicians are losers, and unfortunately - so far, I include myself there


I'm genuinely sorry to hear you feel like that. I certainly don't feel like I'm a loser. 

Maybe it's just different life experiences - sorry I've not read the 8 pages so far... But in my case I had several years of physical work before career changes into IT and then Music. So I'm more from the perspective of how lucky I am to do what I enjoy doing. As a performing musician, where audiences can respond with tears of sadness (classical ensemble) or cheering and just having a great time (tribute group) - I'd be surprised if these paying audience members look at the stage and my fellow musicians and think 'musicians are losers'.


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## robh (Aug 8, 2020)

Robo Rivard said:


> Haha, this poll should make you feel better...
> People like telemarketers better than artists!


Here's what a musician friend said on Facebook about this list:
"I sent this to my brother, _[name withheld]_ (a doctor) because I thought it was interesting that he was number one on the essential list and I was number one on the non- essential list. I loved his response... 
“Stupid list. If I didn’t have music to listen to I’d be more insane than I am. You’re essential _[name withheld]_. They don’t know their priorities. “ 
I have a great brother."


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## classified_the_x (Aug 8, 2020)

PeterN said:


> Well, I think about 98% musicians are losers, and unfortunately - so far, I include myself there. But it will be temporary. Where there is a will there is a way.



you probably are just excited about the "essential workers" hype during Covid 19.

you adopted a survival lifestyle and you decided you can live without music. well, I can too, survive without most of the hyped up dumbed down music that is out there. But what about that little piece that brought a tear to your eye? A song, a movie, a poem?

Essential workers are important, but let's face it, we all could be essential workers. Not all of us do good music, or good code, or good marketing, or could do any of that, even if we wanted to. It's easy to label many jobs as lazy or vagabonds, but we're not. Why ppl teaching orchestration or production on Youtube get lots of views? Because ppl need to learn it... and not many can teach it. Just don't dismiss it...my opinion


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## HarmonyCore (Aug 11, 2020)

I have a question for the OP.

What were you actually doing for 25 yrs? I mean isn't it late to discover this recently?

For instance, I quit my day job 9 months ago and started my musical career. I am dedicating myself to epic trailer and cinematic music and I learn them every second, every day. However, I put another plan too. The plan is, if I fail in this career or can't achieve obvious results or can't make any progress for at most 4 yrs, I will immediately turn it back into a hobby, sell my studio components, and resume my day job anytime. 

It's very harsh to spend 25 yrs then realize that you haven't achieved nothing in this long period.


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## PeterN (Aug 12, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> I have a question for the OP.
> 
> What were you actually doing for 25 yrs? I mean isn't it late to discover this recently?
> 
> ...



I think a lot of failed people are lured to "art". It is a magnet for losers. Every time someone makes a community for artists somewhere - and im talking grass root level - you can be sure its a freakshow. Thats how you get shot too, like Andy Warhol. We should be aware of this fact and try to act accordingly - actively try to brush off the loser which manifests itself in artists. This is a tactical game against a spirit. It can lure you too. Quitting a day job and dedicating oneself to cinematic music, sounds like the loser spirit, but it could be a winner too. Try to be the winner. Dont expect much social life if you want to be the winner. You need to sacrifice. Is it worth it. You ask.


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## Gerbil (Aug 12, 2020)

PeterN said:


> Dont expect much social life if you want to be the winner.


If you're a musician you're already going to know that you'll be spending many hours practising on your own. That will have been evident from the first time you started your instrument or wrote your first piece.

I've taught plenty of pupils over the years, some of whom have gone on to have very productive careers as professional repetiteurs and accompanists. The ones that didn't 'make it' as you say were frequently no less talented. They may have lacked the temperament or social skills required but judging by the correspondence I still receive from them, none of them regret learning to play and express themselves through music. You can't put a price on that and I think if you truly understood the power of music and self-expression you'd get why musicians are the opposite of losers.


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## Keith Theodosiou (Aug 12, 2020)

Entertainment/Entertainer.
That's what we do.

This is why i do not class musicians or composers as failed people or losers. 
To be honest, i feel it is a really weird thing to say about musicians and composers.

When i was in my teens, i was in a band. We used to do pubs and clubs. We used to play 70's rock and 60's rock n roll and blues. We where a cover band.

One day, we got asked to play a local communities club house. So we went there and set up.
The hall we where in was just off the bar. When we started, there where 3 girls in the hall watching us lol
So, i called them over and said, if you go in the bar and say, wow, the band is really great and get people to come and watch, we will buy you some drinks.

So, the girls went off into the bar. All of a sudden, they came back in with about 30 people. So we did our set. As soon as we started on the rock n roll songs, they started filling the dance floor. We finished our set a bit early but they wanted us to carry on and we said, we have done all the songs we know.
They said, do them all again so we did. The whole place was full by now and the dance floor was packed, everyone having a great time.

That to me is what being a musician is all about. We enetertained them and they loved every minute of it and so did we.

That is not being a loser
That is not being a failed person.

That is being an entertainer bringing joy and happiness to peoples lives after a hard days graft on a friday night letting their hair down!


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## PeterN (Aug 12, 2020)

Gerbil said:


> You can't put a price on that and I think if you truly understood the power of music and self-expression you'd get why musicians are the opposite of losers.



I dont deny value of music - completelty at least - but playing with the idea that this is a way for us to manifest ourselves as we did not succeed on the more practical side. You can use creativity in physics too, actually creativity is the source for most inventions. What is the value of self expression? Like some therapy or something? Nobody cares what you think or feel, except your mom maybe, that is a starting point.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Aug 12, 2020)

PeterN said:


> I think a lot of failed people are lured to "art". It is a magnet for losers. Every time someone makes a community for artists somewhere - and im talking grass root level - you can be sure its a freakshow. Thats how you get shot too, like Andy Warhol. We should be aware of this fact and try to act accordingly - actively try to brush off the loser which manifests itself in artists. This is a tactical game against a spirit. It can lure you too. Quitting a day job and dedicating oneself to cinematic music, sounds like the loser spirit, but it could be a winner too. Try to be the winner. Dont expect much social life if you want to be the winner. You need to sacrifice. Is it worth it. You ask.



Dunno man. Looking around, watching people stumble through their daily lives, hearing them talk, seeing them make their decisions, vote people into power, etc. - all I see is losers everywhere.

You don't exactly sound like a winning type either, if I might add.


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## ProfoundSilence (Aug 12, 2020)

I didnt bother reading the thread - but people don't want food - they want survival, then comfort, then enjoyment - in that order. You don't need a fancy chef to not starve, people pay for enjoyment. Entire industries are devoted to enjoyment - and for good reason. Most things are a means to an end - and people pay for electricians so they can sit in the comfort of air conditioning in their home, and enjoy any TV show/song they want on their TV/Speakers/ect, while they look at their computer to find more good brain chemicals. 


most people wouldn't bother living if life had no joy in it, and music is a part of that joy.


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## cqd (Aug 12, 2020)

At least we're not trying to be influencers I suppose..


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## Gerbil (Aug 12, 2020)

PeterN said:


> I dont deny value of music - completelty at least - but playing with the idea that this is a way for us to manifest ourselves as we did not succeed on the more practical side. You can use creativity in physics too, actually creativity is the source for most inventions. What is the value of self expression? Like some therapy or something? Nobody cares what you think or feel, except your mom maybe, that is a starting point.


I think you'll find that when you're performing in an ensemble then everybody values your expressive input. You become larger than yourself. If you're on your own then of course it doesn't matter to anyone but yourself, unless what you create speaks to other people. And it if does then that's an added bonus. Beethoven wrote most of his piano sonatas for himself. But how does any of this equate to being a loser?


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## JonS (Aug 12, 2020)

PeterN said:


> I recall hearing, when an alcoholic admits he is an alcoholic, it is first step to recovery. First, you must admit this to yourself. Or when you become religious you admit existentially you are a faulty human. Personally, my strategy here is - and there does not seem to be any choice of strategies bcs destiny is pushing me there - is to admit to myself im a loser. I was stupid to think it was "talent" or "being gifted", when it was making the wrong choices in the strategic turns of life.
> 
> Heres the thought now. First admitting this. Then going to some religious building and ask higher powers of forgiveness and admitting human stupidity. Also pray for a path to recovery.


I give you credit for being so open about how you feel, the world needs more transparency, honesty, vulnerability, openness and humility 👍

This is a tough question. Most people who pursue the Arts & Entertainment industry will not succeed, if you strictly define success as consistently making enough money to eventually buy a house and decent car(s), have no debt, put money aside for retirement, purchase the necessary equipment you need to conduct your business, and earn enough to support your family including paying for private schools or college one day. By this criteria, a very small number of composers and musicians will ever be able to succeed in this industry.

As much as I assume that many successful people believe their talent, hustle and hard work determined their success, this isn’t true. Tremendous amounts of luck and timing, two things in no one’s control, play the most significant roles in becoming successful, which is something the most successful people typically will admit. There are just way too many talented, hardworking and determined people in every industry that never succeed, who never got lucky or the right breaks. Even completely healthy people die from terminal cancer or are killed by drunk drivers well before their time, so eating right, exercising and being an upstanding person does not guarantee any of us the right to a long life, clearly luck or God is at play. Anyone who tells you otherwise is IMHO delusional or lost in their own ego or selling their infomercial brand on tv/social media.

Feeling like a failure is a deep question because this may for each individual have nothing to do with the industry they are in or pursuing but more to do with their upbringing, relationships with their parents/family and experiences with other people and endeavors throughout their life. They say “the sins of the parents visit the children” so often in life if one feels like a failure was this passed down from parent to child? Did your parent treat you like a failure or felt that they were a failure in some way which is being transferred to the child? There is no universal answer, but given that there are financially successful composers, musicians, orchestrators, rock/pop/rap/country stars, performers, conductors, music producers and engineers, not every one in this industry is a financial failure or “a loser” by your definition.

I agree with you in that pursuing any career and not making enough money would make anyone feel unsuccessful if enough time passed. I think 80% of all new restaurants close within the first 12 months, a great baseball hitter doesn’t get a hit 7 out of 10 at bats but society doesn’t consider him a failure at all. There are plenty of people because of inheritance, connections and nepotism that are seen as successful in this world. I believe Van Gogh never sold a painting while he was alive, who knows how Van Gogh feels now about his tremendous posthumous success. Just because someone believes or perceives something to be true (ie. They are a success or failure) doesn’t mean they feel that way all the time or that’s how each person in society sees them all the time.

Will most composers and musicians financially succeed? No, they won’t. Is there value and success in creating art that doesn’t make the artist money while they are alive? Is there a form of success in pursuing a career with one’s best efforts even if it leads to little or no financial remuneration? Only each individual can answer those questions.


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## PeterN (Aug 12, 2020)

Gerbil said:


> Beethoven wrote most of his piano sonatas for himself. But how does any of this equate to being a loser?




Maybe Beethoven was a winner. One of the few who had a touch of The Divine. You cant deny Beethoven How many artists out there can be compared to Beethoven.


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## PeterN (Aug 12, 2020)

I probably should add one thing here. You know, ...the success in many, if not most, if not all careers, is taking a lot of shit. How are the best soldiers made? Most sages receive a higher conciousness via taking shit as an apprentice. Look at the best chefs, how many times were they not calkled losers? I mean, just in the most basic office work you need to take shit every week. It is also a path to professionalism to wade through humiliation by maintaining a dignity, or at least, achieving it back.

Calling artists losers or failed people is righteous. They deserve it.


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## Gerbil (Aug 12, 2020)

PeterN said:


> Maybe Beethoven was a winner. One of the few who had a touch of The Divine. You cant deny Beethoven How many artists out there can be compared to Beethoven.


That wasn't quite my point - although I'll concede to not being the world's greatest debater.

Maybe we just have different definitions of what a loser is. For me, it's someone who's sitting around doing absolutely nothing with their life (a bit like me today - it's too hot to work here in England so I'm sat here eating too much ice cream and watching Dwight Schrute trigger a fire alarm instead of working) possibly at other people's expense. It's not someone who's studying or practising something that will enrich their lives.

Whatever, no big deal. We all see things differently.


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## PeterN (Aug 12, 2020)

Gerbil said:


> That wasn't quite my point - although I'll concede to not being the world's greatest debater.



No worries, its great to hear that someone isnt a great debater. Theres enough of them out there. We dont need any more great debaters, rather not have them around at all.

Have a great day and I wish you luck in your career.


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## Dear Villain (Aug 12, 2020)

PeterN, the more you insist on referring to artists as losers, the more it reflects only on you and your obvious dissatisfaction with your own circumstances. Many people have illustrated the value artists and a life in the arts can bring both to the individual pursuing it, and to society that reaps its rewards. Your inability to accept this truth simply means that you, as an individual, have a view that is shaped by your own experiences and beliefs. You're entitled to feel however you want about artists, and ascribe whatever label you see fit. You may find a community of like-minded individuals that share in your disdain and contempt for the "artist life", but by posting your views here, I must ask, what do you hope will happen? 

Are you trying to "save" all the rest of us that continue to openly and enthusiastically work as artists? Do you wish to cultivate doubt and insecurity in optimistic artists because they are woefully unenlightened? Do you simply feel like you shouldn't suffer alone and wish to bring others in to your mire of despair and failure?

Seriously, your initial post was an opportunity to discuss the concept of artists as "failed people/losers" and while I completely disagree with your premise, I definitely appreciated the point-counterpoint from various posters. At this point, the discussion has run its course. I think you're just trolling now. Really, if you feel this strongly about your own choices that you can't cope anymore, get professional help. A forum is not a venue to work through your personal and/or professional issues. 

Considering how measured and polite the responses have been from artists, the very group of individuals you accost in your tired posts, I would suggest that this fact alone illustrates that absent any other measures of success you deem important, these artists are supportive, tolerant, empathetic human beings...something many more "obviously successful" individuals can't claim to be.

Hope you figure it all out and recognize that your life is much more than this temporary period of self-loathing.

Dave


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Aug 12, 2020)

I realized this thread is some quality trolling.


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## cqd (Aug 12, 2020)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I realized this thread is some quality trolling.



I don't know if it's trolling as such..He has a valid point I think.. but he's going to be arguing against a lot of cognitive bias here.. like, pretty much everyone here has this image of themselves in their heads.. a lot are probably in some kind of state of arrested development.. just grown up adolescents..


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Aug 12, 2020)

cqd said:


> I don't know if it's trolling as such..He has a valid point I think.. but he's going to be arguing against a lot of cognitive bias here.. like, pretty much everyone here has this image of themselves in their heads.. a lot are probably in some kind of state of arrested development.. just grown up adolescents..



Dunno man. Post #173 is either 100% trolling, or just incredible amounts of self contempt, defeatism and depression.

I know people who _really_ think like that. Every one of them is absolutely miserable, deeply depressed and an incredible jerk towards other people. So, kinda hoping it's trolling (pretty sure it is), otherwise our guy's a deeply wounded soul.


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## PeterN (Aug 12, 2020)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Dunno man. Post #173 is either 100% trolling, or just incredible amounts of self contempt, defeatism and depression.
> 
> I know people who _really_ think like that. Every one of them is absolutely miserable, deeply depressed and an incredible jerk towards other people. So, kinda hoping it's trolling (pretty sure it is), otherwise our guy's a deeply wounded soul.



Come on, Jimmy.

Why should artists have an existential mandate to make an exemption in society, every chef that makes a Michelin restaurant has gone through hell. And every chef that works in a restaurant has to endure criticism and endure tantrums. Every soldier has sweated blood, and to reach the top you need to develop a heart of leather and sweat tears. Every worker in customer care has to endure criticism on a daily basis. Why the fuck should we have the privilege to not be called a loser - at least once. Go and ask how many times your local Starbucks worker takes it, if one time is provoking.

And you know, if you call a master or an elite soldier a loser, he will laugh at it. It doesnt affect at all.


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## Keith Theodosiou (Aug 12, 2020)

PeterN said:


> Go and ask how many times your local Starbucks worker takes it


If anyone takes any shit in their job, that is down to them alone for taking it. A soldier takes it because that is the nature of their training to make them tougher.

I guy working in a shop making coffee shouldn't take any crap from their bosses or managers, they can simply walk out. I have done that enough times in my life. No person on this planet is better than me. We are all equal and if they want respect from me then they had better show me that same respect.

That is a different part of life that you either take or you don't take. That is soley up to each person.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Aug 12, 2020)

PeterN said:


> Come on, Jimmy.
> 
> Why should artists have an existential mandate to make an exemption in society, every chef that makes a Michelin restaurant has gone through hell. And every chef that works in a restaurant has to endure criticism and endure tantrums. Every soldier has sweated blood, and to reach the top you need to develop a heart of leather and sweat tears. Every worker in customer care has to endure criticism on a daily basis. Why the fuck should we have the privilege to not be called a loser - at least once. Go and ask how many times your local Starbucks worker takes it, if one time is provoking.
> 
> And you know, if you call a master or an elite soldier a loser, he will laugh at it. It doesnt affect at all.



Soldiers? They're not allowed to have a mind of their own, and if they do their job perfectly, they die. Is that "winning"?

Ever occured to you that a whole damn lot of musicians work in restaurants or customer care? You don't seem to be aware of the hustling lifestyles of many music people - toiling away by day, gigging by night, etc. Besides, you'd perhaps be surprised that some musicians hold regular jobs that wouldn't even classify as "loser's" occupations in your own cynical hierarchy of looking at things.

Further, I can think of few occupations that have to take constant criticism more than professional musicians.

It seems as if you were actually just envious of those folks who have "made it" in some capacity which allows them to just make music and still get by.

I don't know why you're fixated on this whole "loser" mentality so much. Well actually I do know.


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## cqd (Aug 12, 2020)

Keith Theodosiou said:


> That is soley up to each person.



*solely


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## Keith Theodosiou (Aug 12, 2020)

cqd said:


> *solely


Don't start that shit, you know what i meant and so did everyone else.


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## cqd (Aug 12, 2020)

Keith Theodosiou said:


> Don't start that shit, you know what i meant and so did everyone else.



Ah I was only taking the piss..


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## Keith Theodosiou (Aug 12, 2020)

cqd said:


> Ah I was only taking the piss..


That's ok then lol


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## Bman70 (Aug 12, 2020)

OK what project are you procrastinating on?


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## Dirtgrain (Aug 12, 2020)

How much of a loss it would be to the human race, to animals, to the world, if there was no music, if it weren't musical?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 12, 2020)

The fact that this thread is ten pages has me convinced that the answer is yes - musicians are definitely failed people.


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## Keith Theodosiou (Aug 12, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> The fact that this thread is ten pages has me convinced that the answer is yes - musicians are definitely failed people.


To be fair, the only reason this thread is 10 pages long is, there is one group of people that will say yes and another group of people that will say no.

The title doesn't matter. It could have been anything but it is just Human nature for people that believe one thing and people that believe another thing to put their point across. Therefore at the moment, we have 10 pages but in a few weeks time there will be a lot more.

There could be 1000 pages on this subject but that would not convince me the answer is yes. My answer is no and i will stick to that until this thread reaches the point where everyone realises there is no point in trying to convince anyone any different to what they think now lol


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## Daniel (Aug 12, 2020)

Nooo.
If they have:
music production skills
friendship
enough rest time
environment that supports their careers
special time to learn music without stopping
purpose when taking music as the crutch of their life
sacrifice to be refused
sacrifice when having nothing
gratitude for what you do and love in music
big dreams of achieving what has not been achieved
gratitude when they wake up still alive

PS.: I think I play Instagram too often.


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## PeterN (Aug 13, 2020)

Anyway, I will make the final statement, sort of. Heres the foundation for the thought again, somewhat clarified. When you are below 30's, or so, ...lets say in 20s, some tend to see artists /musicians as something to look up to. It like when a 20 old extremely sexy woman walks past, as 20, your lure takes over, ...you need to grow some age to not be lured be her appearance (at least most over 40 dont go nuts over a 20y old sexy lady anymore). Thats sort of an analogy. The stars you look up to wil fade when you grow older, and you start to respect more practical people (as a generalisation). The engineer who creates a bridge start to look a lot more sophisticated than the guitarist in Iron Maiden or something. Is Ravel a big deal, or maybe a team of astronauts is. Yes, and if you find yourself 40 years old, and being on the artists road, you need to be able to take the criticism too. Something like that. I dont know how people who are 50 will be able to live with the fact that they chose to be musicians, but I will see when I get there.


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## PeterN (Aug 13, 2020)

And whats the fukin fuss about it anyway. One can imagine on a discussion board for accountants someone ponders why they did not choose the artist road instead, money for nothing, and play the guitar on the MTV. Rather than sitting in a dull office with 2 coffee breaks and a manager who nags on you. Sure they question cannot be too sensitive - or provoking to say the least.


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## ashh (Aug 13, 2020)

PeterN said:


> heh
> 
> Recently Ive started to see musicians as a bunch of losers, including myself, and this is a fukin crisis bcs ive invested so much in this, two and a half decades almost. Heres the philosophy, sort of. You got people who build cars, people who understand electricity, people who work in hospitals, management, engineering, mining, pilots, military even policemen, yes, and then wtf you got these losers who are grown up adults doing "music". I can accept it as a hobby, like collecting stamps, but not much more than that. Its like those philosophers in ancient greece who were a bunch of lazy men who went to the agora an "philosophise", while the rest of the population was sweating, and their wives were taking care of everything.
> 
> ...



This is about you. I'm batting it back to you because the key to this crisis of confidence is within you. That's all I've got, with that one.

Music? Music helped me through so many many many difficult places and exulted with me in even more. Stand in the crowd at a gig and tell me that those people are feeling lost. That's what losers give off. 

Nah mate.


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## CATDAD (Aug 13, 2020)

@PeterN you claim that to succeed you need to be called a loser but push through regardless and make it through to the other side.

What do you think these people arguing against you are doing right now? They're pushing through you calling them losers so they may continue to succeed.

As should you, too.


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## PeterN (Aug 13, 2020)

ashh said:


> This is about you. I'm batting it back to you because the key to this crisis of confidence is within you. That's all I've got, with that one.
> 
> Music? Music helped me through so many many many difficult places and exulted with me in even more. Stand in the crowd at a gig and tell me that those people are feeling lost. That's what losers give off.
> 
> Nah mate.



Its cool. Without trying to flame it too personal, the feeling is mutual.


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## PeterN (Aug 13, 2020)

CATDAD said:


> @PeterN you claim that to succeed you need to be called a loser but push through regardless and make it through to the other side.
> 
> What do you think these people arguing against you are doing right now? They're pushing through you calling them losers so they may continue to succeed.
> 
> As should you, too.



Well, I think everuy artist should do some critical self reflection at times, and hopefully reach some kind of conclusion. Im trying to. Isnt there a saying what doesnt kill you makes you stronger. Im more than cool with an artist who doesnt take it personal when being provoked.


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## ashh (Aug 13, 2020)

PeterN said:


> Its cool. Without trying to flame it too personal, the feeling is mutual.



You've confused me. Not too difficult but still. Are you saying that I'm having a crisis of confidence, which has pushed me to write the post you quoted? 

Otherwise, I apologise if I have upset you.


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## PeterN (Aug 13, 2020)

ashh said:


> You've confused me. Not too difficult but still. Are you saying that I'm having a crisis of confidence, which has pushed me to write the post you quoted?
> 
> Otherwise, I apologise if I have upset you.



Yea, I get it. So let me be straight then, I see you as a loser. But I said that about myself too, so dont take it too personally.

And to further stir a bit. Are artists the only one with the mandate to provoke? Arent artists "provoking thought patterns". What about provoking artists, how about that.


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## Keith Theodosiou (Aug 13, 2020)

PeterN said:


> I dont know how people who are 50 will be able to live with the fact that they chose to be musicians, but I will see when I get there.


When i was 17, i felt fantastic that i was a musician/composer
When i was 40, i felt fantastic that i was a musician/composer
I am now 62, and i feel fantastic that i'm a musician/composer
On my death bed, i will thank my mum and dad (again) for giving me the chance at 6 yrs old to learn the piano and i will die happy that i was a musician/composer.

This is just what you are feeling not what everyone else feels


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## PeterN (Aug 13, 2020)

Keith Theodosiou said:


> When i was 17, i felt fantastic that i was a musician/composer
> When i was 40, i felt fantastic that i was a musician/composer
> I am now 62, and i feel fantastic that i'm a musician/composer
> On my death bed, i will thank my mum and dad (again) for giving me the chance at 6 yrs old to learn the piano and i will die happy that i was a musician/composer.
> ...



Good for you mate


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## cqd (Aug 13, 2020)

PeterN said:


> Well, I think everuy artist should do some critical self reflection at times, and hopefully reach some kind of conclusion. Im trying to. Isnt there a saying what doesnt kill you makes you stronger. Im more than cool with an artist who doesnt take it personal when being provoked.



I think this is lacking these days too..no one does enough critical self reflection anymore..
It's all false narcissistic positivity..


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## ashh (Aug 13, 2020)

PeterN said:


> Yea, I get it. So let me be straight then, I see you as a loser. But I said that about myself too, so dont take it too personally.
> 
> And to further stir a bit. Are artists the only one with the mandate to provoke? Arent artists "provoking thought patterns". What about provoking artists, how about that.



You think what you think. I feel what I feel. I admit that your statement that you think I'm a loser was a little bit whoa but that's my stuff. 

Who hands out the mandates? Artists can think whatever they want to about their output but once they have put it out there then what I think and feel about it is up to me.


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## PeterN (Aug 13, 2020)

ashh said:


> You think what you think. I feel what I feel. I admit that your statement that you think I'm a loser was a little bit whoa but that's my stuff.
> 
> Who hands out the mandates? Artists can think whatever they want to about their output but once they have put it out there then what I think and feel about it is up to me.



Cool


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## Dirtgrain (Aug 13, 2020)

"So when the last and dreadful hour
This crumbling pageant shall devour,
The trumpet shall be heard on high,
The dead shall live, the living die,
And music shall untune the sky."

- Alexander Pope

This is religious, and I'm not, but I love the notion that music will have the final "word."


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## mikeh-375 (Aug 13, 2020)

cqd said:


> I think this is lacking these days too..no one does enough critical self reflection anymore........


Actually I do and I should imagine I'm not the only one. One has to be careful though not to fall too far down. Positivity isn't all bad.


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## Crowe (Aug 13, 2020)

This is not the apocalypse, the average person is not currently judged for their ability to farm or do carpentry.

'Failed People' and 'Losers' are to be found aplenty, but in my view they're generally simply wastes of space or otherwise deeply unpleasant people. Secondly, hubris has been the downfall of many humans, artists or not. It depends on your definition, of course.

To get to the point, I was brought up with the idea that culture is one of the more important pillars of our current society. Living your life positively contributing to said pillar isn't something a 'loser' would do, I feel.


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## Mark Kouznetsov (Aug 13, 2020)

I couldn't disagree more. Inventors, poets, musicians, artists, people who go against the grain are the ones who push societies and civilizations forward. It's totally normal for people to think low about artists of any kind, because they "are not like the rest of us". Many of them are simply envious because they can not understand how these few manage to do what they love doing, while all the others continue to work on the jobs they hate, for example. Not only does music helps you develop as a person, it makes a meaningful contribution to society, you just may not notice it! 

Philosophers weren't losers, quite otherwise, they did what the rest didn't dare to do. They spent their lives looking for answers much more important than "how much cash do I have and how much booze am I'm going to buy, and what car can I afford - I want a Ferrari". 

Art and philosophy are very much alike. Most of the people live in a shell and are afraid to come out of it! They much rather prefer to sell their dreams and a chance at fulfilling existence, of doing what they were meant to do for money and stability. They don't have the guts to act, and when they get together as a mass, they act differently, they look down on those who dare to go their own way and succeed in it. They are not willing to sacrifice their short-term leisures for living the life they were meant to live. They rather go to work, then go home, take a beer, watch netflix for 6hr and go to bed. It's easier. It's simpler. You don't have to sacrifice anything for it. It's stable. All of this is a pitiful life of mediocrity. 

Of course, it's another thing if you're a doctor or something, and you're in love with what you do. Than, all of this applies to you as well. But no, we are not losers. We are actually the ones who are winning.

If you feel depressed, I'd advise you to read some philosophy. It's not dumb. It's the compilation of observations on life by the greatest minds in human history. You're not alone in your thoughts. Your situation is not unique. All of your errors and problems in life were experienced before by someone else. And they have written about it. You should read it! It helped me get out of my long depression. It may seem like a common knowledge at times, but it's because you're not reading INTO it, you have to fully understand it, it takes time.

Regards, 

Mark.

I just want to say, I'm new here and all... But don't give up! And here is a great quote to support you at these times:


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## Mark Kouznetsov (Aug 13, 2020)

P.S.: Just wanted to add that it's okay to feel anxious. One philosopher once said, it's either anxiety or depression. If you feel anxious and unsure: that's great! It means you're at the stage when there is a possibility of personal growth. Most people feel anxious for the majority of their days. Depression, however, leads to stagnation and ultimate death of human spirit. So don't be depressed! Make some music, mix things up. Go to a park, take a book, read. Art is what will ultimately help you fight it!


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## PeterN (Aug 13, 2020)

Mark_Kouznetsov said:


> P.S.: Just wanted to add that it's okay to feel anxious. One philosopher once said, it's either anxiety or depression. If you feel anxious and unsure: that's great! It means you're at the stage when there is a possibility of personal growth. Most people feel anxious for the majority of their days. Depression, however, leads to stagnation and ultimate death of human spirit. So don't be depressed! Make some music, mix things up. Go to a park, take a book, read. Art is what will ultimately help you fight it!



No, its not depression, quite the opposite actually. Just to clarify. 

Was it necessary to do that much psychologising? Its fukin annoying, its worse than the loser philosphers of ancient Athens. I can take it, slam me as hard as you can but dont be such a pu..y with that psychologising. Excuse my words.


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## PeterN (Aug 13, 2020)

Shiirai said:


> This is not the apocalypse, the average person is not currently judged for their ability to farm or do carpentry.
> 
> 'Failed People' and 'Losers' are to be found aplenty, but in my view they're generally simply wastes of space or otherwise deeply unpleasant people. Secondly, hubris has been the downfall of many humans, artists or not. It depends on your definition, of course.
> 
> To get to the point, I was brought up with the idea that culture is one of the more important pillars of our current society. Living your life positively contributing to said pillar isn't something a 'loser' would do, I feel.



So can you give some examples of culture as one of most important pillars of modern society. To hear your take ion this. I dont deny cultures role, Ive seen countries go communist, destroy culture and have just a soulless landscape left. But how would you see it. What is the artists role in modern western society, your take. I dont demand an essay, a few words enough.


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## Mark Kouznetsov (Aug 13, 2020)

PeterN said:


> So can you give some examples of culture as one of most important pillars of modern society. To hear your take ion this. I dont deny it, Ive seen countries go communist, destroy culture and have just a soulless landscape left. But how would you see it. What is the artists role in modern western society, your take. I dont demand an essay, a few words enough.



Well, whatever. Judging by your responses, you don't want to hear any thoughts anyways. Sorry to bother...


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## PeterN (Aug 13, 2020)

Mark_Kouznetsov said:


> Well, whatever. Judging by your responses, you don't want to hear any thoughts anyways. Sorry to bother...



Well, next time try to approach from another angle than saying "its depression". Grow up.


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## cqd (Aug 13, 2020)

I think music's importance culturally reached a saturation point twenty years ago..

At this stage music is kind of disposable I think.. It's just an appendage to the image people project into the matrix.. like, what was the last big album any of you were actually excited by?..and a lot of the trailer kind of music many are concerned with on this forum even moreso..
The way many here view it as a business is kind of soulless too.. With the rise of the computer music it's become a more participatory thing too than the artist/audience dynamic that might have been there when we were all first aspiring musicians..


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## Keith Theodosiou (Aug 13, 2020)

The people that work in our sewers are contributing to society.
The people that go around every week collecting our rubbish are contibuting to society.
The doctors and nurses that work in our hospitals are contributing to society.
There are hundreds of people that do jobs that contribute to society.
When all these people come home from work, they eat their meals then unwind in front of the telly
watching actors and musicians and camera men and producers and directors and makeup artists and all these people that do their jobs to entertain all the people that do their jobs for society.

Everyone i have mentioned is contributing one way or another.

Take all the entertainment away from society and what are you left with?
A place where i definately wouldn't want to live.

Everyone does their bit regardless what they do to make Human existence bareable.


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## JonS (Aug 13, 2020)

PeterN said:


> Well, I think everuy artist should do some critical self reflection at times, and hopefully reach some kind of conclusion. Im trying to. Isnt there a saying what doesnt kill you makes you stronger. Im more than cool with an artist who doesnt take it personal when being provoked.


What doesn’t kill you today eventually kills you at some point.

Get beaten up by life enough it won’t make you stronger, it will just eventually kill you. Whoever said it makes you stronger was at the beginning of their journey, as time passes no one outsmarts death. Pride cometh before the fall, so IMHO embrace humility, grace and compassion as soon as possible before life forces you to.


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