# Where did counterpoint go?



## dcoscina (Dec 27, 2013)

Oh boy, I'm sure I'm going to get it for this but I had to ask. I'm noticing a lot of user demos that have a lot of chordal based work but very little interplay between lines. My question is this: is this phenomenon because clients don't care about contrapuntal textures (that's sort of obvious actually) or whether the composing on keyboards is taking away this technique? Or a bit of both. Personally, I'm always trying to imbue my work with more motion and activity as I find chordal based pieces, well, kinda boring...

Here's an example of the same bit of music done in 2 ways. 

https://soundcloud.com/dcoscina/chordal-vs-polyphony

The first is more or less block chords moving from one to another with a little bit of the melody on top (so it's almost homophonic composing of sorts). Much as I could, there's still a little inner line motion later on because I couldn't just sit on those chords until the next one. 

The second part is the counterpoint rendition of the same music. There's some contrary and parallel motion within the strings and a touch of motivic imitation. Now, for playback using samples, I'm sure both versions would be acceptable to a client (or maybe not- you never know). But honestly, when dealing with real string players, a lot of whole notes are bo-ring. 

So, what do you guys think? Do you like employing counterpoint and it gets the boot because it's too "busy" for paying clients or can you be honest and say it's partly due to keyboard composing?


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## mverta (Dec 27, 2013)

The answer is neither. 

Clients don't want what they have not got. And they don't know to want them, either, because most of the younger ones haven't heard it, and that's just as well, because most of the younger composers can't bring it. Lasting music is horizontal; today's music is vertical.


_Mike


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## germancomponist (Dec 27, 2013)

mverta @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> The answer is neither.
> 
> Clients don't want what they have not got. And they don't know to want them, either, because most of the younger ones haven't heard it, and that's just as well, because most of the younger composers can't bring it. Lasting music is horizontal; today's music is vertical.
> 
> ...



+1

As a side note, Mike: I always like it to read your comments! (You have the freedom to say whatever you think. Nobody attacks you for it!)
o/~ o-[][]-o


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 27, 2013)

mverta @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> The answer is neither.
> 
> Clients don't want what they have not got. And they don't know to want them, either, because most of the younger ones haven't heard it, and that's just as well, because most of the younger composers can't bring it. Lasting music is horizontal; today's music is vertical.
> 
> ...



+1. Exactly. Many now think playing a melody on a string patch with their right hand and chords in their left is "string orchestrating".


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## germancomponist (Dec 27, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> +1. Exactly. Many now think playing a melody on a string patch with their right hand and chords in their left is "string orchestrating".



+2


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## mverta (Dec 27, 2013)

germancomponist @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> As a side note, Mike: I always like it to read your comments! (You have the freedom to say whatever you think. Nobody attacks you for it!)
> o/~ o-[][]-o



That's probably because I spend more time teaching young guys than bashing them. There was a time I didn't know shit, either.


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## AC986 (Dec 27, 2013)

You don't hear much counterpoint in music these days. In fact not regularly for about 250 years.


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## mverta (Dec 27, 2013)

I think perhaps you've missed out on shit ton of music.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 27, 2013)

adriancook @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> You don't hear much counterpoint in music these days. In fact not regularly for about 250 years.



Not true, listen to Alex North, John Williams and Jerry Goldsmith just for a start and you hear lots of it. Not strict 5th species, of course, but horizontal line against line writing a plenty.


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## AC986 (Dec 27, 2013)

Strict counterpoint? Don't think so.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 27, 2013)

adriancook @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> Strict counterpoint? Don't think so.



I believe I conceded that.


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## germancomponist (Dec 27, 2013)

mverta @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> germancomponist @ Fri Dec 27 said:
> 
> 
> > As a side note, Mike: I always like it to read your comments! (You have the freedom to say whatever you think. Nobody attacks you for it!)
> ...



Thanks for the hint, Mike!


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## AC986 (Dec 27, 2013)

You did. No argument but everyone else should differentiate or people may misunderstand wtf they they're talking about. I seem to remember a gazillion years ago studying counterpoint for about 12 years. 

Contrapuntal. Now that's a another thing. :wink:


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## mverta (Dec 27, 2013)

germancomponist @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> Thanks for the hint, Mike!



You're welcome. 

Being a dick is easy. Just look at this thread.


_Mike


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## bimberl (Dec 27, 2013)

No counterpoint in the last 250 years? Oh wow. You have so much incredible music to catch up on, I envy you!


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## Gabriel2013 (Dec 27, 2013)

mverta @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> The answer is neither.
> 
> Clients don't want what they have not got. And they don't know to want them, either, because most of the younger ones haven't heard it, and that's just as well, because most of the younger composers can't bring it. Lasting music is horizontal; today's music is vertical.
> 
> ...



What a coincidence, I just listen to your podcast "The Future of Virtual Music " today, and this topic comes along.
I am hoping that your predictions on that podcast will come sooner Master Yoda :D 

As a side note:
One of the reason I still write concert music is to keep some of my composition techniques alive,.......... and its also easier to find an ensemble to play it.
I always get astonish by the amount of people that do mockups but never really have a real orchestra play their pieces.........actually some never been to a concert hall.
Strange times we are living in.


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## bimberl (Dec 27, 2013)

Sorry, I now see you said strict counterpoint... got it...


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## AC986 (Dec 27, 2013)

bimberl @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> Sorry, I now see you said strict counterpoint... got it...



No worries. After all, can you imagine having to listen to music today that adheres to strict counterpoint. It would be boring as hell. Especially when you can listen to endless John Williams clones being as boring as hell.

And do people not realize what they don't have? Well I'm certainly not in a position to argue with that and cannot possibly imagine trying to educate them either. Naturally when I think back to listening to the great composers in the fifties and sixties at that actual time, it's easy to get jaded in the present age and feel you may have heard it all before.


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## bimberl (Dec 27, 2013)

adriancook @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> bimberl @ Fri Dec 27 said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry, I now see you said strict counterpoint... got it...
> ...



But of course there's great contemporary music with fantastic counterpoint. Thomas Ades manages to write counterpoint that feels unique to him, and that is both challenging and perceptible, i.e., you really hear the subject entries and experience the contrapuntal nature of the music. 

Film music is another story. But even in film music there is some vertical music being written.


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## bimberl (Dec 27, 2013)

I meant horizontal music-- it's rare but it's around.


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## Daryl (Dec 27, 2013)

My only contribution to this thread is that I was asked to write a fugue for a library album. I did, and it's actually made some money. :lol: 

D


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## bbunker (Dec 27, 2013)

Jeez. "Strict" counterpoint, eh? What does that even mean at this stage? That you write fugues, inventions, motets, etc.? That you write pieces that only use species counterpoint? That your lines only use one of the imitative motives without any free material?

Even if we all agreed on what "strict" counterpoint was (and just for the record, I'd consider it to be the last of those definitions. But, then Bach himself wouldn't really be a strict contrapuntalist, would he? Far too much free imitative writing...), what's the point of bringing strictness into the ring? Was Buxtehude a lesser composer than anyone else because of his tendency to write free imitation in his fugues?

Now, Back to the OP. I actually preferred the first version. I just felt like the changes in the second version didn't add anything; the moving lines weakened (to my ear) some of the stronger sonorities of the first version, and didn't really add to the piece.

What about going the opposite direction as an experiment? Take a piece with some imitative treatment, simplify it to as generic and homophonic a version as you can, and then see if we don't prefer the imitative one?!?


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## dcoscina (Dec 27, 2013)

Fair enough though it took me about 10 minutes to do the second counterpoint version and I'd normally shape it a bit more. Also when working with lines like this I prefer notation so I can see all the lines.

As far as reducing to homphonic texture, we had to do both in orchestration class. Sibelius (notation program not the composer) is great for exploding and reducing parts. Its also a snap to do imitative counterpoint on as well.


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## JohannesR (Dec 27, 2013)

dcoscina @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> So, what do you guys think? Do you like employing counterpoint and it gets the boot because it's too "busy" for paying clients or can you be honest and say it's partly due to keyboard composing?



Cool example! I am constantly facing this dilemma when writing for film. The composer in me wants to complicate the music, but the story teller in me wants to convey a message as effectively and concisely as possible. I can easily think of scenes I have done where a polyphonic texture wouldn't fit the scene as well as a more chordal approach. In a film scoring context, it's what serves the picture that is most important, so I go with what feels right. It has nothing to do with composing at the keyboard. Polyphonic writing isn't that hard!


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## bbunker (Dec 28, 2013)

dcoscina @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> Fair enough though it took me about 10 minutes to do the second counterpoint version and I'd normally shape it a bit more. Also when working with lines like this I prefer notation so I can see all the lines.
> 
> As far as reducing to homphonic texture, we had to do both in orchestration class. Sibelius (notation program not the composer) is great for exploding and reducing parts. Its also a snap to do imitative counterpoint on as well.



I'm kind of intrigued by what an orchestrator would teach about "converting" imitative music to homophonic music. I'm imagining a professor in a roomful of third-year undergrads passing out the fugue from the Organ Passacaglia and Fugue (BWV 582, ftr) and saying "Now remember...no counterpoint allowed!" I can't even really imagine what the result would sound like. Bleak, I would guess!

Anyone else reminded of the edicts of the Council of Trent to reduce excessive polyphony that 'hid the message of the text' or something along those lines? So in that spirit, let's all go listen to Palestrina to refresh our minds on how polyphony can actually bring out the text rather than mask it!

If you do have any 'polyphony reductions', post an example of one of those, please! Do Spem in Alium!!!


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Dec 28, 2013)

When I began private study of music composition theory the first thing my teacher started me on was counterpoint. 

Counterpoint IS what makes great music and artists. It SHOULD be the foundation. 

I am so sick of listening to the generic chordal bs that has plagued media of late.

It's a lot easier to play chords and a single boring melody going in similar motion then to actually WRITE music.

EDIT: Everyone seems to be talking about contrapuntal writing and not counterpoint. Whoops..Ill just back away quietly.


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## dannthr (Dec 28, 2013)

I think that there's a time and place for counterpoint and it's not all the time nor all the places.

I think counterpoint is a bit demanding to listen to and can be of great value during scenes where there isn't a lot of physical action but perhaps a lot of mental or emotional movement. 

I also think that counterpoint needs homophonic relief because it tends to create intellectual tension.


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## kmlandre (Dec 28, 2013)

dannthr @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> I think that there's a time and place for counterpoint and it's not all the time nor all the places.
> 
> I think counterpoint is a bit demanding to listen to and can be of great value during scenes where there isn't a lot of physical action but perhaps a lot of mental or emotional movement.


+1. Can you imagine the first movement of the Moonlight Sonata "counterpointified"? Blah. It's beauty is in the fragility of its sparse harmonic accompaniment. Though don't get me wrong - we had to do a Schenkerian analysis of it in my undergrad program and there's actually plenty of contralpuntal stuff going on, but it's all in slow motion.

I'd argue that there's plenty of modern music that falls the same way off the fence, film music in particular...



dannthr @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> I also think that counterpoint needs homophonic relief because it tends to create intellectual tension.


I'm not a huge Mozart fan (exactly the opposite, in fact), but my wife and I have been studying the score for his 9th quartet, and it's a perfect example of what you're talking about: swaths of melodic material w/simple chordal support followed by contrapuntal material, with frequent alternations between the two textures.

Of course, for me Mozart manages to make it all sound like the musical equivalent of a giant fluffy waffle with too much whipped cream. But it's a genius giant fluffy waffle, I can't deny...

And while we're kvetching about annoying trends in modern composition, _*CAN SOMEONE PLEASE OUTLAW THE OSTINATO?!?!*_ :D 

Kurt M. Landre'
http://www.SoundCloud.com/kmlandre


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## ryanstrong (Dec 28, 2013)

Lack of divis or lack of concentration of divis in most sample libraries perhaps? LASS makes it so easy to want to write counterpoint compared to other libraries.


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## AC986 (Dec 28, 2013)

dannthr @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> I think that there's a time and place for counterpoint and it's not all the time nor all the places.
> 
> I think counterpoint is a bit demanding to listen to and can be of great value during scenes where there isn't a lot of physical action but perhaps a lot of mental or emotional movement.
> 
> I also think that counterpoint needs homophonic relief because it tends to create intellectual tension.



I'd say you nailed it.

Bach was THE master of counterpoint and I believe that when it comes to learning an instrument, I guess particularly a keyboard one, it's probably invaluable.

In todays world, strict counterpoint is basically completely out of date. It's very much part of a Baroque period and baroque literally simply means 'movement' as opposed to static. It bled into Rococo sculpture and architecture, which is full of movement also.

Contrapuntal just means two or more moving parts that are similar but not strict counterpoint. Yes, it is a kind of horizontal way of writing. I personally don't understand this way of putting it. Things just move forwards hopefully.

Strict counterpoint could be construed as this, just in case anyone wants to know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXBmygI-N3M

or this


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Jom9BsuEY4

and parallel 5ths are worth mentioning when it comes to counterpoint.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3mtrKx5NI8


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 28, 2013)

You guys just need a little help:

Ostinato = Arpeggiator
Fugue = Glee cover of _______
Counterpoint = Mashup
Parallel 5ths = Maroon 5
Orchestration = Mixer or Modwheel->Filter Cutoff
Contrapuntal = Latin NFL star (kicker)
Ensemble = Ableton Live
Divisi = Mic Cabinet
Schenckerian Analysis = Ryan Seacrest
Horizontal Writing = No Motion Capture (trad keyboard)


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## markwind (Dec 28, 2013)

Thanks for that Adrian ! I wasn't sure what it meant.


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