# SIPS Problems



## Big Bob (May 5, 2006)

If you are consistently having some problem using SIPS that you are convinced is caused by the script, as opposed to being caused by K2 or some K2/Host interaction, this is the thread to report these problems in.

To have the best chance of getting your problem resolved, you should always try to reduce it to its simplest form before reporting it. If you can make the problem happen with K2 in standalone mode, by all means report it that way. This will eliminate the possibility of K2/Host interaction problems. If your problem only occurs in plug-in mode the possibility exists that it may be host-specific and I won't be able to reproduce it on my host (unless they just happen to be the same, which is very unlikely since I'm using Power Tracks).

Also, try to eliminate any sample-library-specific problems by trying to produce your problem using an instrument from the K2 library.

Regardless of whether your problem occurs only in plug-in mode or occurs in standalone mode or both, you need to write a detailed procedure for producing the problem, and *I mean detailed*. Don't assume I will automatically be able to duplicate all your settings. And, unless everything is setup the same, the problem may not occur.

Reporting problems vaguely and without very specific procedures for producing the problem will accomplish little more than to create 'experience statistics'. If you really want your problem resolved, you are going to have to take the time to do the preliminary detective work involved to reduce it to something I can easily setup and see for myself. If you report problems carefully and methodically, I'll do my best to investigate them and/or enlist the help of others that might be using a similar setup.

As far as I'm aware, there is only one outstanding issue that hasn't been resolved and that is issue #3 in the V1051 readme file. Those of you who have experienced thisòR    9<R    9<‚R    9<ƒR    9<„R    9<…R    9<†R    9<‡R    9<ˆR    9<‰R    9<ŠR    9<‹R    9<ŒR    9<R    9<ŽR    9<R    9<R    9<‘R    9<’R    9<“R    9<”R    9<•R    9<–R    9<—R    9<˜R    9<™R    9<šR    9<›R    9<œR    9<R   9<žR   9<ŸR   9< R   9<¡R   9<¢R   9<£R   9<¤R   9<¥R   9<¦R   9<§R   9<¨R   9<©R   9<ªR   9<«R   9<¬R   9<­R   9<®R   9<¯R   9<°R   9<±R   9<²R   9<³R   9<´R   9<µR   9<¶R   9<·R   9<¸R   9<¹R   9<ºR   9<»R   9<¼R   9<½R   9<¾R   9<¿R   9


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## Big Bob (May 5, 2006)

josejherring @ Fri May 05 said:


> Been using multiple instances of the SIPS script for weeks. On a current cue I have about 5 patches using the script and 1 solo patch also using the vibrato script.
> 
> My clients love it. They noticed a change in the quality of the lines. Also, I just got another prominant composer to buy K2 just to use your script because he loved a piece I did as a scipts demo. I'll send you the demo if you'd like.
> 
> ...


That's great Jose, *no problems *is always better than some problems :wink: . I'd love to hear your demo, just give me a URL to it or email attach it to me.

God Bless,

Bob


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## Thonex (May 6, 2006)

Yeah Bob... since the new version of SIPS and the new version of K2... no problems here :smile: 

Cheers,

T


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## Synesthesia (May 10, 2006)

Hi Bob - 

New version of K2 here, and no problems, just very happy!

Thanks for your generosity in this project!

All the best,

Paul


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## rJames (May 11, 2006)

*Problems with SIPS*

NO problems!!

Its beautiful in K2.1. Thank you, thank you.

I'm fine with the way the RTs are working. 

No problem with them falling apart into endless loop. All good!

Yee haw... (jumping and clicking heels)

I think I can start to integrate it into my daily template. So, nice.

And I haven't even used the cc controls yet.


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## Big Bob (May 12, 2006)

*Re: Problems with SIPS*



rJames @ Thu May 11 said:


> NO problems!!
> 
> Its beautiful in K2.1. Thank you, thank you.
> 
> ...


Oh Hallelujah! I needed that Ron!

Thanks to all of you who have checked back in on this thread to report about SIPS on V2.1 of K2. Now all I need is some confirmation from someone who was having the Sonar freeze-up problem that they no longer have it when running on K2.1. Let's hope that problem has been resolved as well.

Theo was having the most trouble with that issue but he's only on a dial-up now so I doubt if he has updated to 2.1 yet. I'll let you know if he reports back on this but meanwhile, if any one else had the problem with V2.0, please let me know if you still have it with K2.1 or whether it's gone (the latter prefered :wink: ).

God Bless,

Bob


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## sbkp (May 13, 2006)

I just finally got around to trying this out on a real piece. It sounds amazing, but I'm having two issues (using 1051).

* When I use the sustain pedal to enable the script, crazy things happen. Notes sustain well past their end points, and sometimes never stop.

* I got a really good sounding slide on a solo violin patch, but the slide only occurs about 1/3 of the time. The rest of the time, there's little (or no?) effect at all. Maybe this is by design, but I hoped the script would be deterministic.... If I send it the same string of notes, I'd like to have the same result every time.

Thanks, Big Bob, for such a wonderful creation!

Best,
Stefan


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## Big Bob (May 19, 2006)

sbkp @ Sat May 13 said:


> I just finally got around to trying this out on a real piece. It sounds amazing, but I'm having two issues (using 1051).
> 
> * When I use the sustain pedal to enable the script, crazy things happen. Notes sustain well past their end points, and sometimes never stop.
> 
> ...



This reply was apparently one of the casualties but thanks to Nils little recovery utility I was able to reconstruct it. So here it is again.
******************************************************************
Thanks Stefan, I'm glad you generally like the scripts. 

Regarding the first problem with the sustain pedal, the phrase "When I use the sustain pedal to enable the script, crazy things happen" is a little ambiguous. Does it mean that you have 'assigned' the sustain pedal as the LegCC or something like that? Or are you just talking about normal usage of the sustain pedal? If the latter, you'll need to be much more specific for me to be able to comment. If the former, it's not a good idea to assign CC64 to control anything in either the SLS or SVS because CC64 is kind of 'hard wired' within K2 to perform specific functions. SIPS is therefore designed to also utilize CC64 messages in the same special way. All this therefore presumes that you will not attempt to assign CC64 to control something else in SIPS. 

SIPS is designed so that when you assign a CC to control something within the SIPS family, that CC is blocked from getting to K2 (see paragraph 1 on page 6 of the manual). However, K2 (at least V2.0) does not allow a script to intercept certain controllers and CC64 is one of them. While a script can read CC64 it cannot block it from getting to K2 (via the usual ignore_controller technique). 

So, the first thing I would try, would be to assign a different CC (hopefully your keyboard/MIDI controller setup will allow you to assign some other CC to a footswitch if you need foot control). 

Your 2nd problem sounds more mysterious. In general, you should be able to get the same effect from SIPS anytime you send it the same 'exact' series of notes (as from a sequencer). If you are getting some kind of variable result we should try to track this down. It could indicate some sleeper problem with the script or it could indicate some KSP timing problem (and there have been plenty of those). I would need a lot more detailed information to allow me to reproduce the problem. 

At the beginning of this post, I indicated the general steps that need to be taken if you have a problem you want me to look into. Please re-read that material and try to reduce the problem to one that I would have a shot at reproducing here. If you can provide me with such a procedure, I'll gladly look into it. 

God Bless, 

Bob


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## sbkp (May 19, 2006)

Big Bob @ Fri May 19 said:


> Does it mean that you have 'assigned' the sustain pedal as the LegCC or something like that?



Yes, I'll use a different controller. Thanks.



Big Bob @ Fri May 19 said:


> At the beginning of this post, I indicated the general steps that need to be taken if you have a problem you want me to look into. Please re-read that material and try to reduce the problem to one that I would have a shot at reproducing here. If you can provide me with such a procedure, I'll gladly look into it.



Will do. Thanks much!

- Stefan


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## Ranietz (May 24, 2006)

Hi. 

I've been using SIPS for a while now and it sounds great but I'm having some troubles with it. 
I have the problem when I'm using Kontakt 2.0.2.007 (Kontakt 2.1 doesn't work for me) running EWQLSO Silver with SIPS-Legato V1051 in Sonar PE 4.0.4. It doesn't matter if I use Kontakt as Dxi or Vst. Kontakt + SIPS works fine in standalone mode.

The problem is: I record a track in Sonar using Kontakt with SIPS-Legato. I push play, and SIPS suddenly mutes all note on that instrument. I doesn't happend right away but randomly after a while. The only way I'm able to hear anything is by bypassing the SIPS script or reloading the project. Every midi data is sendt correct to Kontakt and I can see the Voices number for each instrument go up and down as I play back, but I can't hear anything.
It seems like Sonar sends some midi signals to Kontakt that messes up the SIPS script.

I know I didn't explain everything very well, but I hope someone can help me... :cry: 

-Ranietz-


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## Big Bob (May 24, 2006)

Ranietz @ Wed May 24 said:


> Hi.
> 
> I've been using SIPS for a while now and it sounds great but I'm having some troubles with it.
> I have the problem when I'm using Kontakt 2.0.2.007 (Kontakt 2.1 doesn't work for me) running EWQLSO Silver with SIPS-Legato V1051 in Sonar PE 4.0.4. It doesn't matter if I use Kontakt as Dxi or Vst. Kontakt + SIPS works fine in standalone mode.
> ...



Hi Ranietz,

You have just re-described the classic Sonar/K2 problem #3 discussed in the readme file for SIPS. I also re-iterated it at the beginning of this post, so I'll repeat it here again.

*As far as I'm aware, there is only one outstanding issue that hasn't been resolved and that is issue #3 in the V1051 readme file. Those of you who have experienced this freeze-up problem need to see if V2.1 of K2 has corrected it. If not, you need to report that, preferably with a simple procedure that will demonstrate the problem. *

This problem has always been suspected as being caused by some Sonar/K2 interaction, especially as related to the malfunctioning CC123 problem with K2. Similar hangup problems now seem to be resolved since the release of V2.1 but I'm waiting for someone with Sonar to report on whether or not they still have the problem with K2.1. But, you are saying "K2.1 doesn't work for me". Why is that? You need to get K2.1 working for you and then please report back as to whether the problem with SIPS has been corrected. I know of no one still experiencing this problem with K2.1.

God Bless,

Bob


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## Ranietz (May 24, 2006)

Thanks for the reply, Big Bob.

I didn't know this problem was described in the readme file. Sorry about that.

I updated Kontakt to ver. 2.1 about a week ago, and then, everytime I closed a project that used Kontakt 2.1, Sonar crashed and I had to restart my computer or else Sonar would not find my audio drivers. So now I'm using Kontakt 2.0.2 instead... I don't know what to do so Kontakt 2.1 will work with Sonar...


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## Big Bob (May 25, 2006)

Ranietz @ Wed May 24 said:


> Thanks for the reply, Big Bob.
> 
> I didn't know this problem was described in the readme file. Sorry about that.
> 
> I updated Kontakt to ver. 2.1 about a week ago, and then, everytime I closed a project that used Kontakt 2.1, Sonar crashed and I had to restart my computer or else Sonar would not find my audio drivers. So now I'm using Kontakt 2.0.2 instead... I don't know what to do so Kontakt 2.1 will work with Sonar...



I'm sorry to hear that but unfortunately I don't have Sonar. Maybe one of our Sonar users can help you with getting K2.1 working. How about it guys? Has anyone running Sonar gotten K2.1 working with it OK? If so, did you formerly have the SIPS freeze-up problem with K2.0 and has K2.1 corrected the problem? I haven't gotten any feedback from Sonar users on this issue but other users with similar problems (with different hosts) have reported that their SIPS problems have gone away after the K2.1 update. How about it Sonar users, we need some feedback and Ranietz needs some help getting K2.1 working with Sonar.

God Bless,

Bob


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## Thonex (May 25, 2006)

Wasn't Theo using Sonar?

T


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## Big Bob (May 25, 2006)

Thonex @ Thu May 25 said:


> Wasn't Theo using Sonar?
> 
> T


Yes indeed but Theo is still sort of loosely connected in Greece. I think he has a dialup modem and probably hasn't updated to K2.1 yet. At least he's never responded to my inquiries about it. Since he was the first one to get this freeze-up problem, I asked him to check SIPS out with K2.1 shortly after NI released it. But, I haven't heard back from him since then.

Anyone else hear from Theo recently?


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## Alex W (May 25, 2006)

I had this exact problem in Cubase before I updated to kontakt 2.1. Was a real pain, but 2.1 completely fixed it, not to mention improving the CPU load of this script many times over.

Sorry to hear about your problems Ranietz, you've really gotta keep trying to figure out how to get 2.1 going, it is a lot better when you get it running stably.


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## Scott Cairns (May 25, 2006)

Big Bob @ Fri May 26 said:


> Thonex @ Thu May 25 said:
> 
> 
> > Wasn't Theo using Sonar?
> ...



Ive been speaking to Theo, but the island he lives on has limited internet facilities unfortunately. I think he said there's an internet cafe with ADSL, but its something like 15-30ks away from his house.

I do know he's coming back to Australia at some point, we'll hook him back up to broadband then. :wink:


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## Frederick Russ (May 25, 2006)

Big Bob @ Thu May 25 said:


> Thonex @ Thu May 25 said:
> 
> 
> > Wasn't Theo using Sonar?
> ...



No worries Bob. This happens every year with Theo - he goes off to a remote area and then returns later. He'll be back.


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## Tod (May 25, 2006)

Hi Bob,

I'm sorry my friend but I still haven't had time to upgrade to 2.1 yet. Also, at this point I'm a little reluctant to upgrade because of a project I'm working on that has many project files each with 2 or 3 instances of K2 and if the upgrade didn't work quite right I could end up with a nightmare.


Hi Ranietz,



Ranietz @ Wed May 24 said:


> Hi.
> I've been using SIPS for a while now and it sounds great but I'm having some troubles with it.
> I have the problem when I'm using Kontakt 2.0.2.007 (Kontakt 2.1 doesn't work for me) running EWQLSO Silver with SIPS-Legato V1051 in Sonar PE 4.0.4. It doesn't matter if I use Kontakt as Dxi or Vst. Kontakt + SIPS works fine in standalone mode.
> -Ranietz-



I tested this pretty thoroughly back a few weeks ago useing Sonar 4.0.4 and found that the script stops working if you stop play in the middle of a transition from one note to another. Basically if you stop play between where the next note starts and the RlsFade ends it will stop working.

To get it back all I had to do was reload the script so I simply just renamed the script for what I was working on and reloaded it. Of course you have to reset the low & top key but at least it gets you back close to where you were.

Hope this helps.

Tod


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## Ranietz (May 25, 2006)

Thanks for the replys everyone.

Since the last time I posted here I tried once again to update to Kontakt 2.1. Still not good. I also have Cubase LE. Same problem there. The only difference is that when I close a project in Cubase I get the "Error: Memory Corruption" dialog box, while Sonar just disappears when I close a project...  

The good thing though is that it seems like the scripts works in Kontakt 2.1, although I haven't done that much testing...

I reported this problem to Native Instruments about 24 hours ago, but no response yet. I guess they are busy... :mrgreen: 

_Edit: Thanks Tod. I too found out I could just reload the script but when I have over 10 instruments that use the script it's still anoying..._

-Ranietz-


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## rJames (Jun 19, 2006)

Hi programmers (hopefully Bob).

I seem to hear a problem when using SIPS with RTs. (yes I continue to use RTs)

Does the SIPS script hijack the RT call?

I am getting a strange sound when I use keyswitches. If I use SIPS on a non-keyswitched patch, it works flawlessly.

If the keyswitch were to come before the end of the previous note, would the RT be from the holding note or from the new articulation called by the keyswitch?

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## TheoKrueger (Jun 20, 2006)

Sorry for the delay, just saw this thread.

The freeze-up problem with Sonar seems to have dissapeard with Version K2.1. I haven't had the time to verify it 100% but all seems to be good and running. I'll crash test it again later and let you know.


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## rJames (Jun 20, 2006)

thanks for your answer and your time, especially in light of your circumstances.

I'll resond to your note, Bob, in hopes that Nils or someone can respond or look into it.

I'm not expecting a response from you and most certainly, do not want to get your blood pressure up!

All I meant by an RT "call" is the point when Kontakt "allows" the RT to play (which seems to be on the "keyUp"). (I don't know the correct nomenclature)

Even though (in normal K2 operation) I have keyswitched to a new articulation (with its own RT), the correct RT plays on the "keyUp".

It is very simple to watch the RT group light up as it is played when watching the groups within K2.

When the SIPS script is active, the RT of the current held note does not play on "keyUp". The RT of the "new" or "keyswitched" note will play.

My guess is that the new velocity is also being routed to the RT so that if you play a "SUS" note at 100 (velocity) and you then play a legato note (activating the SIPS script by overlapping the notes) at 60 then your RT is played at an unnaturally low volume. Hence the strange blat that I am getting.

And in the case that is more noticeable...Play a legato phrase (overlapping the notes) at velocities at 70, leave a very short gap (deactivating the SIPS script) and then play a SUS note at 127...you will get a very loud RT from the last note in the legato phrase because the RT will be played at 127 and not at 70. It will also be the RT from the SUS note.. (not a problem unless your RT is from a TRILL or some other strikingly different art)

Observations.

So, it seems that in some way, by diverting the normal activity of K2, the RTs are "hijacked" (not meant to be a negative term but just a descriptive one)

Certainly K2 has internal scripting that puts the "current note velocity" and "Current keyDown" into a buffer waiting for the next "current keyUp" to use for the RT.

If the particular library has no RT. Then the buffers are just allowed to fill up again.

Any group that plays on a "keyUp" call get their values from the buffer and not from the current status.

Seems simple enough to program, but I am not a programmer.


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## sbkp (Jun 20, 2006)

rJames @ Tue Jun 20 said:


> With SIPS...somehow...and I don't know how...the "keyUp" message responds to the new articulation's RT. Without SIPS, it responds to its correctly assigned keyswitch group (the one that was active on the previous "keyDown)



Weird. I've always thought that with keyswitching, the new articulation's RT is played if you keyswitch in the middle of the note. It used to "work" that way, at least.


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## rJames (Jun 20, 2006)

Stephan, you are so right.

Excuse me for assuming that NI programmed it correctly.

So, we get a trill RT if we have it too close to a SUS note? Oh-h-h-h, great.

So, now my observation that I get a strange blip between notes if there is a keyswitch will get totally sidetracked because I didn't check my facts.

Yet...Something is happening to the RTs when you have a keyswitch that doesn't happen with SIPS is not engaged.

Darn...I should have left it at that!


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## Big Bob (Jun 20, 2006)

Hey Ron,

I thought of one technical detail about the SLS that might have some bearing on your observations.

For all 'inside' notes of a legato phrase, the SLS actually generates two notes. The parent note (which is the note actually played) and a clone that's generated in order to allow a sample-start offset to be made. For very complicated technical reasons having to do with how K2 handles the sustain pedal and various non-uniformities in K2's treatment of generated notes, the SLS doesn't simply use ignore_event for the 'parent' note but rather has to 'hang on to it' for the lifetime of the clone note. So the SLS simply mutes the parent note. So, when a prior legato note ends, there are actually two notes ending (one of them muted). 

However, with the hoaky way that K2 handles RTs, who knows whether or not if these two notes ending at the same time might cause some funny thing to happen with the RTs?

I'm not going to be able to pursue this issue of course, but, I thought I might mention it for the benefit of anyone who wants to dig further into this problem.

Bob


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## TheoKrueger (Jun 21, 2006)

K2.1 and Sonar 4 is working flawlessly. I crash tested it yesterday and it didn't halt even once.


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## Big Bob (Jun 21, 2006)

TheoKrueger @ Wed Jun 21 said:


> K2.1 and Sonar 4 is working flawlessly. I crash tested it yesterday and it didn't halt even once.



Thanks Theo,

I have suspected (based on a bunch of related reports) that this problem may have been solved but it's so nice to hear it directly.

God Bless,

Bob


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