# Opinions please. Cubase Dorico and Libraries workflow?



## ZeroZero (Dec 2, 2020)

6 minutes ago

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#1
Hi all,
I am a long time Cubase user. I just took a punt with Dorico as it was on sale and I did not have a score package. I have always used Cubase score and found it good enough. TBH I just fancied taking a look and spent my dosh.
As you all know, not all performances lend themselves to a score - try notating a Muddy Water's Harmonica wail, or a guitar thrash. It seems to me to be pointless to notate a synth part that consists of putting down one finger and waiting for bars for the sound to play out. Then there is orchestration. Of course Dorico is useful for that, but when your using an ensemble part what do you do?

Are any of you guys using Dorico as part of your workflow with Cubase and other libraries? DO you use expression maps? How do you switch between the two. I am of the opinion that Dorico has not achieved full integration with Cubase yet, am I right about this?

Any insights please?

Z


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## Woodie1972 (Dec 2, 2020)

Cubase+Dorico user here.

I hope I do understand your question, so forgive me of my answer is not the answer you're looking for.

But combining the two programs is not an easy task. You absolutely have to make sure everything is quantized very well if you started in Cubase, otherwise f.e. importing a midi file will be a disaster.

I get your point about the harmonica or synth, but if you write a long note in Dorico for this synth, with the correct name of the desired patch, the player most of the time knows what to do, plus if you loaded the right sample in Dorico, playback will give you the right result.

Keyswitches work great in Dorico. You can change the existing ones so they do what your library needs to play the right expression and in the Play window there are lanes like in Cubase, where you can edit all kinds of cc data, so the patch will play as you want it to do.

Cubase has its own pro against Dorico, especially with synth, drums and guitar and so on as you mention yourself, plus you have much more control over your mix, FX, and routing. The mixer in Dorico is designed like the rack instrument in Cubase, which is not very useful IMO, but that's a matter of taste, I guess.

As classical trained musician I lean towards a notation based piece of software, so I tend to use Dorico more often, also because the score editor in Cubase does not always feel as intuitive as I would like to see. But for extensive control of playback, mixing and so on, nothing beats a DAW if you ask me, although Dorico does a pretty good job.

About the integration: there was a survey from Steinberg last year about that, never heard anything about is since, but I think at Steinberg behind the screens they are working hard to accompish this. Needless to say this is a hell of a job of course, which won't be for tomorrow, but will be a dream come true for a lot of users who would love to have a decent notation program combined with the power of a DAW.


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## ZeroZero (Dec 2, 2020)

The more I learn, the more I think I will stick with Cubase score


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## Bollen (Dec 2, 2020)

I use both professionally, but maybe I use it differently from you. I tend to do everything music in Dorico, including playback (everything manually including keyswitches and dynamics), then I dump the MIDI file or stems in Cubase to mix and master. I find it a dream combination...


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## mducharme (Dec 4, 2020)

The engraving in Cubase score is pretty terrible, IMO. Even for things like just getting a birds eye view of the score, the horrendous spacing algorithm makes the score really hard to read. It spaces quarter notes the same as eighth notes etc. You can switch to proportional spacing but then if you have 16th or 32nd notes you end up with notes so close together that they are on top of each other and it looks terrible. I really don't consider it usable.


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## Babe (Dec 5, 2020)

For serious score work, you need a serious notation program. The scores in DAWs don't cut it.


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## ZeroZero (Dec 6, 2020)

Babe said:


> For serious score work, you need a serious notation program. The scores in DAWs don't cut it.


But how is it integrated into a workflow? If you have a piece which uses both orchestral libraries and say synths and you use the Cubase DAW to do things like modify the sounds?


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## RogiervG (Dec 6, 2020)

The midi and expression functions in dorico are marvelous though, you can shift the midi data around, while the notation stays correct.
In e.g. many legato patches in sample libraries need overlapping notes to trigger the legatos, if you would trigger this in notation alone, you then would need overlapping notes, just like in midi only. However, as you know, that's an incorrect notation method ofcourse.
So In dorico you just add the legato symbols to the notes, and then switch to the midi part and move the midinotes so they overlap: when it's rendering the score, the legato is triggered on playback where it should, and the score is still correctly notated. (if you understand what i mean)

So in practice they are connected to eachother (midi and notation), but also separately in a way.


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## Woodie1972 (Dec 6, 2020)

I would like to add to this, that as soon as you draw a slur, Dorico automatically creates the overlap for you.


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## ZeroZero (Dec 6, 2020)

RogiervG said:


> The midi and expression functions in dorico are marvelous though, you can shift the midi data around, while the notation stays correct.
> In e.g. many legato patches in sample libraries need overlapping notes to trigger the legatos, if you would trigger this in notation alone, you then would need overlapping notes, just like in midi only. However, as you know, that's an incorrect notation method ofcourse.
> So In dorico you just add the legato symbols to the notes, and then switch to the midi part and move the midinotes so they overlap: when it's rendering the score, the legato is triggered on playback where it should, and the score is still correctly notated. (if you understand what i mean)
> 
> So in practice they are connected to eachother (midi and notation), but also separately in a way.



That's good to hear. Cubase notation has a similar function called Display Quantized, where the notes are quantized to a bar fraction but the real MIDI performance is left unchanged, with all its human frailties and strengths


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## mducharme (Dec 6, 2020)

ZeroZero said:


> That's good to hear. Cubase notation has a similar function called Display Quantized, where the notes are quantized to a bar fraction but the real MIDI performance is left unchanged, with all its human frailties and strengths



Yes, I have used this display quantize feature before, on my first orchestral piece from 2012 (which was later imported to Sibelius). It can be awkward if you need to add a large number of display quantize entries like I had to do. They've actually added an alternative method in Cubase 11 that is borrowed from Dorico. That is probably the beginning of the long term integration goal between the two programs.


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## Eric G (Dec 6, 2020)

ZeroZero said:


> That's good to hear. Cubase notation has a similar function called Display Quantized, where the notes are quantized to a bar fraction but the real MIDI performance is left unchanged, with all its human frailties and strengths



I am with your earlier comment. Stay with Cubase. You have to have a love or need for notation as a TOP priority. If you want to integrate live music audio or play with Synths, Dorico is just not going to compete with Cubase.

FOR ME, I hate MIDI. I can't compose in MIDI. I don't study in MIDI or buy Study Scores in MIDI. And I am not a instrument player. So there is NO advantage for me with CUBASE. I use CUBASE for mixing and mastering Audio.

Dorico is the exact opposite. NOTATION FIRST. Expression Maps are a bridge to MIDI that is behind the scenes and will eventually get to be as good as the CUBASE experience. But not today. But if you love NOTATION, you will spend the time to make Dorico rival Cubase with Expression Maps + Detailed Libraries and then send to CUBASE to mix Audio with Live performances and Synths (You can have Syths in Dorico BTW).


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## Woodie1972 (Dec 7, 2020)

mducharme said:


> They've actually added an alternative method in Cubase 11 that is borrowed from Dorico.


Can you tell me which method that is? Can't find anything in the manual or online about it.


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## mducharme (Dec 7, 2020)

Woodie1972 said:


> Can you tell me which method that is? Can't find anything in the manual or online about it.


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