# Outboard Processing



## José Herring (Apr 8, 2009)

_The topic on the studio pics thread moved to outboard gear, its uses and its comparison to plugin emulations. I'm starting a new thread from the studio pics topic if anybody is interested._

There are three files here:
https://download.yousendit.com/WnBSd0VLUENCSm9LSkE9PQ

All files are the same track. A little drum thingy I'm whipped up today based on my online drumming lessons. I used EZ Drummer.

One file has no processing. Another with Nomad Factory tube emulation. And yet another run through my modified Groove tubes fitted preamp. The difference are pretty clear to me. The plug saturation beefs up the track but it fuzzes out the sound too much to my liking. It's like as soon as it kicks in the sound gets fuzzy. No matter how little drive I applied. Makes it muddy. The one run through the real tube adds punch and deapth, but it also adds noise that if I had the plugin for it I would clean out, but I don't, so I didn't.

Both treated tracks use a little plugin compression, eq and reverb. I think the difference would be even more pronounced if I had outboard compression and EQ.

best,

Jose

edit: Oh, I should mention that only the kit drum tracks are processed. The taikos and the timpany are straight from EWQLSO with no additional processing.


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## Waywyn (Apr 10, 2009)

Hey Jose,

as mentioned in that other thread, thanks for the comparison. To be really honest, I find the examples to be way over distorted. It was probably on purpose to have the drums sounding like this, but I just hear a pumping and distorted signal.

It would have been cool to have it more subtle ... but I think you can clearly hear the differences.

Since we are at outboard processing I found a really interesting shootout on using summing amps against a internal ProTools mix. Might sound a bit weird but I would also like to see this mix also run through Logic and/or Cubase 

To be honest I thought the differences would be much bigger, but you can clearly hear some differences in those analog devices against the ProTools mix. Still not sure what I like most but to me the Inward jumps right to my ear ... still listening

Might be an old hat to some or most of you, but still ...

http://vintageking.com/site/files/sumshoot.htm


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## José Herring (Apr 10, 2009)

I was trying to do a NIN type sound. Maybe I over did it.

Also I'm not sure about summing an entire mix to get the analog sound. Just certain elements of a mix.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 10, 2009)

I just listened to three of the rock mixes on headphones. The differences are probably bigger on speakers, but it's pretty subtle. I didn't hear the sound get bigger and wider in the headphones; what I heard is that the Neve is a little rounder, audible particularly in the bass drum click and the snare.


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## germancomponist (Apr 10, 2009)

What do we hear with our ears?

Frequencies and dynamic; is there more what we can hear in a voice, noice or in music?

Use good equalizers and your ears. and you can tweak any sound in any direction... .

Try to think about that an analog tool is only a preset in Altiverb! :mrgreen: 

All I have heared when using and comparing outboard analog equipment was that there was a different in some frequencies volume.òì¼   œeì¼   œe


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## Waywyn (Apr 10, 2009)

A little add:

I think you can compare it best if you go to visuals again. You can NOT create a light with a computer which is as bright as welding equipment ... but in real life you can. You even have to protect your eyes, since it is that bright. Not possible with a screen ... in a way or another you can compare that to audio.


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## germancomponist (Apr 10, 2009)

Waywyn @ Fri Apr 10 said:


> germancomponist @ Fri Apr 10 said:
> 
> 
> > What do we hear with our ears?
> ...



Oops, I had edited my post while you was writing this... . :mrgreen: 

Why are there now on the market analog fakes as convolution presets?

Analog allone, sure, this is much warmer than 16bit digital. But with 32bit fload and 96 or 192kHz sampling rate, I think one can get the same sound only in the daw. o/~


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## re-peat (Apr 10, 2009)

Well no, you can't. There's something about running an audiosignal through a GOOD (very important word, this) piece of analog gear that simply can't be duplicated by today's in-the-box technology. Maybe tomorrow we'll be able to duplicate that analog magic in all its undefinable beauty, but not today, not even with all the UAD's in the world. And it certainly won't be achieved by doing something as simple as tweaking an eq curve, raising the samplerate, or pressing some convolution software into action - the true depth of high-end analog is far more complex than that.

What we _can_ achieve today however - with good plugins - is recreate some of the exterior superficialities of the analog treatment: the fat-ish, rounded and densely saturated sound which many people seem to associate with 'analog'. But that's only one side of it and, as far as I'm concerned, it's also the most boring and, ultimately, the least satisfying one - musically speaking.
The real power of analog comes into play when during mixdown, you find that all your tracks sit naturally together and blend almost effortlessly into one organic whole. There's a whole other dimension added to the sound which no plugin that I know of (and I happen to know most of the 'virtual analog' ones fairly well) is capable of producing. And another thing: sound that's been run through a good analog unit tends to have a dynamic (or dynamics) that's very different from plugin-processed audio. I don't have a technical explanation for this, but the difference can be quite remarkable. (The way I use compressors and limiters has changed _profoundly_ ever since I added an analog summer to my studio.)

Mind you, I'm not saying that all music that's been processed/produced with analog equipment will automatically sound better than ITB-produced material. Not every type of music benefits from going analog and many styles of music are even better off without it, but if you're really sensitive to all the subtle and not so subtle qualities that good analog equipment has to offer, there is (at this point in time anyway) only one way to go : use real analog quality gear.

_


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## Waywyn (Apr 10, 2009)

I have to agree with re-peat here ...

In the digital world it is all 0s and 1s ... it is just algorithms and coding. No matter how complex it is, it cannot recreate the natural behaviour of electronic circuits and signals flotaing through cables and devices ... and all it's "ups and downs" ...

You can kinda compare it to the sample world. Have a string staccato program with like 100 round robins ... it may sound realistic but in the end you can't replace the feeling, the sound and the movements of a real string ensemble.

So if you add several stems together, there is something going on in the analog summing amp or console which "just adds the signals" ... but inside a sequencer it is just a logical sortout, a programmed process and ordering of 0s and 1s to a final stereo mix ...


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## synthetic (Apr 10, 2009)

Nomad Factory is pretty crap, IMO. This is what you're looking for:

http://www.audiodamage.com/effects/product.php?pid=AD019 (http://www.audiodamage.com/effects/prod ... ?pid=AD019)

AD is THE SH#T. Cheap, great UI, killer sound. Sounds like a record. 

I guess you could do that stuff with analog processing, but it would take hours and sound pretty similar. Versus, "nah that preset isn't it, how about the next one?"


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 10, 2009)

"Use good equalizers and your ears. and you can tweak any sound in any direction... . 

Try to think about that an analog tool is only a preòìû   œs4ìû   œs5ìû   œs6ìû   œs7ìû   œs8ìû   œs9ìû   œs:ìû   œs;ìû   œs<ìû   œs=ìû   œs>ìû   œs?ìû   œ[email protected]ìû   œsAìû   œsBìû   œsCìû   œsDìû   œsEìû   œsFìû   œsGìû   œsHìû   œsIìû   œsJìû   œsKìû   œsLìû   œsMìû   œsNìû   œsOìû   œsPìû   œsQìû   œsRìû   œsSìû   œsTìû   œsUìû   œsVìû   œsWìû   œsX


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## Waywyn (Apr 11, 2009)

synthetic @ Sat Apr 11 said:


> Nomad Factory is pretty crap, IMO. This is what you're looking for:
> 
> http://www.audiodamage.com/effects/product.php?pid=AD019 (http://www.audiodamage.com/effects/prod ... ?pid=AD019)
> 
> ...



Isn't there a demo available?
I would really like to compare it to Badbuss Mojo, Varisaturator, TwinTube, Inflator etc. before I spend the money.

Besides that someone at gearslutz referred me to another free plug which is kinda cool (AU only):
http://www.smassey.com/au.html


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## Revson (Apr 11, 2009)

re-peat @ Fri Apr 10 said:


> Well no, you can't. There's something about running an audiosignal through a GOOD (very important word, this) piece of analog gear that simply can't be duplicated by today's in-the-box technology. Maybe tomorrow we'll be able to duplicate that analog magic in all its undefinable beauty, but not today, not even with all the UAD's in the world. And it certainly won't be achieved by doing something as simple as tweaking an eq curve, raising the samplerate, or pressing some convolution software into action - the true depth of high-end analog is far more complex than that.
> 
> What we _can_ achieve today however - with good plugins - is recreate some of the exterior superficialities of the analog treatment: the fat-ish, rounded and densely saturated sound which many people seem to associate with 'analog'. But that's only one side of it and, as far as I'm concerned, it's also the most boring and, ultimately, the least satisfying one - musically speaking.
> The real power of analog comes into play when during mixdown, you find that all your tracks sit naturally together and blend almost effortlessly into one organic whole. There's a whole other dimension added to the sound which no plugin that I know of (and I happen to know most of the 'virtual analog' ones fairly well) is capable of producing. And another thing: sound that's been run through a good analog unit tends to have a dynamic (or dynamics) that's very different from plugin-processed audio. I don't have a technical explanation for this, but the difference can be quite remarkable. (The way I use compressors and limiters has changed _profoundly_ ever since I added an analog summer to my studio.)
> ...


Interested in your thoughts Re-peat (and anyone else who'd like to pitch in). 

If one were to buy one piece of outboard analog - with the aim of "getting what can't be got" inside the box - what might a good choice be?

I suppose the ideal is a full array of Manley, Neve et al...but is there a sweet spot for those of us who cannot contemplate that kind of outlay?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 11, 2009)

Maybe you want one of those summing boxes, Revson.

I personally wouldn't buy a piece of analog gear just to use as an effect. Usually people try to avoid extra junk in the path! But I think probably a really good compressor would be the most useful thing if you're just running the signal through for the hell of it.

Years ago I sold all my outboard equipment and bought two Millennia Media channel strips, and they add color if you replace the stock tubes with exotic ones - or they're totally transparent if you use their solid-state paths. Their mic preamps, DI, and EQ are just the best, and their optical compressor is good for some things (mostly losing a couple of dB while recording acoustic instruments - not the same as an LA2A, which can give you 15dB of reduction without sounding artificial). They're high-end boxes, but they're forever.


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## chimuelo (Apr 11, 2009)

The TD-1 is a great peice from Millenia also.
A mobile production company did a live recording of a show I was in and while everyone else was mic'd and direct this guys says this will help me when I master your Virtual rig... >8o 
Of course I was insulted as I use analog synths and hardware effects, etc. So he told me to consider it as a giant D.I. as he could tell I was quacking about it.
After I heard the finished product I went and bought a Crest XRM and started using it as an 8 BUSS psuedo summing unit and have never used stereo out since.
Adding channel strips and top shelf compressing is a great way to record and it sure fattens up a live rig too.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 11, 2009)

The TD-1 is a less deluxe version of the STT-1 - same basic circuits.

Have you tried running your synths through the TD-1?


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## synthetic (Apr 11, 2009)

Waywyn @ Sat Apr 11 said:


> synthetic @ Sat Apr 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Nomad Factory is pretty crap, IMO. This is what you're looking for:
> ...



No, they don't do demo versions. They price their stuff super low ($49?) and offer a money-back guarantee. The only one of those I have is Inflator, and Kombinat is completely different. Nothing subtle about it. The only plug-in I have that's close is iZotope Trash, which I haven't even used since I got Kombinat. 

They do have a free fuzz, tremolo and compressor plug-in you can play with to get an idea of how their stuff sounds. Check the "free stuff" area of their site.


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## chimuelo (Apr 12, 2009)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Apr 11 said:


> Have you tried running your synths through the TD-1?



Yes, I was allowed to be present during mastering and brought my rig in to check out their outboard gear.
This was a while back but the engineer advised against buying it, even though he recorded my outs with it.
I explained what I wanted to do with my sound, and how I was adding 6 x sets of IEM's and sub mixed drums & triggers and he suggested the Crest XRM mixer.
He claimed the circuit design was similar but lacked the Solid State stages.
This allows me to use the DSP plugs and sub mix in the box, but send BUS outs to the Crest XRM, and it was a very noticable improvement.
When I just use my rig for keyboards only and mock ups, I sum everything into XRM, and have several options to go to FOH or Monitor boards, etc.
Most of the time in the rooms I work in the Monitor boards are usually better than the FOH boards? For example at the House Of Blues we use the Midas 64 Channel board for Monitors, and an Allen & Heath 48 Channel for FOH......$%^&& ?

If I were to buy a real high end recording solution for personal use the STT's would be great.
Thankfully when I do record most of the studios are pretty well stocked and have excellent consoles and outboard gear, and it's great to demo high end gear and A/B the quality.
Mock ups sound so much better when outboard gear and real instruments are added to the mix.
I recently recorded at a small project studio where the Upright Piano sounded like crap, so I brought my rig in and used Plectrum instead of a pristine Grand and mixed with the acoustic instruments sounded so sweet in the mix. Outboard gear and real instruments really make our virtual stuff sound so much better IMHO.


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## re-peat (Apr 14, 2009)

Revson @ Sat Apr 11 said:


> If one were to buy one piece of outboard analog - with the aim of "getting what can't be got" inside the box - what might a good choice be?


Revson,

Sorry for this late reply. Like Nick already said, I think you'd get the richest results from a good analog summer because that's the only type of unit that allows you to benefit from the unique way in which analog circuitry deals with squeezing any number of tracks into one stereo mix. And next to that, a good summer can also serve perfectly well as a powerful pre-amp or tracking device. Mine for instance - the 'Fat Bustard' valve summer from Thermionic Culture - has a number of extremely useful features offering plenty of options to shape your sounds in a very organic and characterfull way.
It is, however, a very expensive route to take, because not only do you need to invest in the analog equipment (which isn't cheap), but you also need a top-of-the-line multichannel AD/DA convertor, because without it, most of the sonic splendour that the analog unit brings to the party, gets damaged or even completely lost during bad or mediocre AD/DA conversion.

_


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## chimuelo (Apr 14, 2009)

That's one of the sweetest mixers I ever heard.
I had a custom DSP mixer made a few years back which was inspired by the Oram/Trident mixer. I was shocked when I saw the the Thermonic Culture stuff while in SF at AES. I wonder if this mixer caused them to use the letter " U "... /\~O 
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## Revson (Apr 15, 2009)

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## reid (Apr 17, 2009)

chimuelo @ 14th April said:


> ...I was shocked when I saw the the Thermonic Culture stuff while in SF at AES. I wonder if this mixer caused them to use the letter " U "... /\~O



Nah - Thermionic have a bee in their bonnet about all things avian. Hence the Culture *Vulture*, Little *Pullet*, the *Rooster*, *Phoenix*..... you get the idea


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## Scott Cairns (Apr 17, 2009)

Hi Guys, long time no speak..



re-peat @ Sat Apr 11 said:


> There's something about running an audiosignal through a GOOD (very important word, this) piece of analog gear that simply can't be duplicated by today's in-the-box technology.



Agreed 100%

These days, Im recording live vocals and guitars for pop/rock music so my needs have changed a bit.

Ive recently invested in these bits of gear for my front-end chain;

Mic Pre: http://www.apiaudio.com/512c.html
Compressor: http://www.purpleaudio.com/Product/Action.html
Mic: http://usa.rodemic.com/microphone.php?product=K2

After using lots of mid-level mic pres etc, the difference in audio quality is HUGE.

There's definetly still some sort of mojo that happens when you run your track through great outboard analog gear. Its even worth the extra A/D - D/A trip.

If you're working mostly with samples, i still think a summing box, good EQ and/or comp can still make a huge difference to the sound.

If you're recording lots of live tracks to layer in, a top quality mic pre is important, not just for the obvious sound quality and cleanliness of the signal, but also how your tracks layer together when you've recorded dozens of things with the same pre-amp. 

An inferior pre-amp adds noise, distortion, and often doesnt catch transients very well. The end result of stacked tracks and a bad mic pre is a flabby sounding mix. (IMHO)

Anyway... how is everyone? Did anybody bring beer? :mrgreen:


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## madbulk (Apr 17, 2009)

Scott Cairns @ Fri Apr 17 said:


> Hi Guys, long time no speak..



First of all Scott, you and your kind making actual music with actual instruments are not really welcome here anymore. Particularly if you didn't even bring beer.

But as long as you're here you might as well tell us what are you plugging this stuff into?

Hope you're well Mate.


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## José Herring (Apr 17, 2009)

Scott Cairns @ Fri Apr 17 said:


> Hi Guys, long time no speak..
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Can't go wrong with that chain!! Also, if you get the cash and you want some of the older vintage rock sound, try out the Drammer 1968 tube compressor.

best,

Jose


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## synthetic (Apr 17, 2009)

Yeah, that's pretty close to my guitar chain as well. Only I use SM57>API>1176. If it works for Eddie, works for me.


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## Scott Cairns (Apr 17, 2009)

Thats a nice chain Jeff 

Jose - yeah the Drawmer compressors rock!

Its amazing how much of the vintage gear is sought after today.. my mic pre was first made in 1967 and has had very little changed in it in all that time.


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