# Why do Americans consistently vote against their best interests?



## midphase (Jan 7, 2011)

This just in:

http://money.cnn.com/2011/01/07/news/co ... htm?hpt=T2



A little bit of research reveals this:

Blue Shield earned $9.7 billion in revenue in 2009, an 8.8% increase over 2008. 

and this:

Operating income declined to $57 million...


and this:

Membership grew by 134,000, to more than 3.5 million. 



and yet people feel like this:

"As you may know, a bill that makes major changes to the country's health care system became law earlier this year. Based on what you have read or heard about that legislation, do you generally favor or generally oppose it?"
3/10: "As you may know, the U.S. House of Representatives and the U.S. Senate are trying to pass final legislation that would make major changes in the country's health care system. Based on what you have read or heard about that legislation, do you generally favor it or generally oppose it?"


Favor Oppose 
43% % 54% 


What I want to know is....WTF is wrong with people in this country? How insane do you have to be to oppose something that in the long run will greatly benefit your interests? And if you're saying that people don't want to increase the national debt...then why the tax breaks for the über rich???

This is so stressful to see happen, and I firmly blame ignorance and FOX News for single handedly disseminating mis-information which feeds unto more ignorant people.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 7, 2011)

Good questions.


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## Reegs (Jan 7, 2011)

I can only think most of us have trouble with long term planning and long term consequences.

I think it's the same rationale for why people want a 10% instant (and violent) market rebound and return, rather than steady, slow, predictable growth.


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## José Herring (Jan 7, 2011)

Most of us would rather spend 100million dollars on fighter jets that don't work than spend a dollar making sure our lazy out of work neighbor can get a pill for his stuffy nose.


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## chimuelo (Jan 7, 2011)

Most Americans are not stupid Brotha' Man Midphase.
They know when someone is pissing on their back and trying to tell them that it's raining.
We only need to look at the Governments great achievements, and we are only left with military success stories.

But even then, just look at the " health care " our brave men and women recieve for putting thier life on the line......Now do you really for one minute believe that these temporary occupants in DC give a hoot what some un insured American, who has never even served or barely contributed to the Social Security and Medicare programs needs................??............Please.

Lets look at Welfare.......LBJ passed this legislation because the wealthy saw riots and a bad war ( another poor judgement and lie ) and figured they would give this money to all black Americans and subsidize their housing, etc. And avoid even larger riots. LBJ never even sat down and had a meal with a Black American until a gun was pointed at his head.
What a great success that was. It destroyed black families. The fatherless millions are overflowing our jails, but wait, lets have a prison for profit system where people can make money off of the cheap labor.......Brilliant.
Guess who owns these facilites...........???
Hollywood elites, retired politicians.......etc.
You can google Bob Barker, Senator Danforth ( owner of Ralston Purina ), etc. Many of the nations " green lovers " and humane liberal types.

There is no left or right, sure we believe there is, and vote accordingly, but these people take their orders from the powerbrokers and worlds wealthy.
But sometimes their scraps are worth fighting over.

The recent gathering of elites in Cancun on our dime was a prime example of what they represent. A lavish party with Limosuines being imported from other Mexiacn states just to accomodate them, while they all try and figure out what to do with the rest of us.........You gotta love 'em. They actually are starting to believe the shit they rattle out of their mouths.... :lol: 

Truth is, they don't care about you, and they never will. You mean nothing to them, and the worlds wealthy are not going to allow themselves to be taxed just to cover mistakes they made from bad legislation they once supported.

You should just be happy you can go to the emergency room and have tax payers cover that. That's all you are going to get.
But, there is something that might come out of this.
Pre existing conditions, and people who have paid into a company will continue getting coverage. This is a step in the right direction, but remember this.
Obamas advisors like Warren Buffet own insurance companies, don't you fiò    ÓÄ”    ÓÄ³    ÓãQ    Óã€    ÓãÎ    Óä    Ô‰    Ô¤    ÔR    Ôf    Ô•    Ô¤    Ôÿ    Ô V    Ô)J    Ô)…    Ô,x    Ô,Ž    ÔD2    ÔD    Ôtâ    Ôu    Ôvñ    Ôw¨    ÔL    Ôw    Ô’    Ô’/    ÔÃø    ÔÄ3    Õ
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## NYC Composer (Jan 7, 2011)

Chim_ I generally don't argue with your political views, as you obviously have some strong ones and entrenched positions. I do as well.

That said, to say LBJ was not sincere about attempting to affect poverty and racial imbalance in America is to fly in the face of the evidence. It's really not one of your better researched theories, it's just an opinion. All the evidence I've seen indicates that, though he was a late convert, he was unquestionably trying to help the least fortunate and redress inequalities. To a degree, you're right about much of the ultimate outcome, but his efforts also helped to create a cohesive and viable black middle class, and that was a major accomplishment.

To the topic- the main problem people have about the healthcare bill (although I may be personalizing it, it's certainly MY main problem) is that they don't know what's in it, don't understand it, and parts of it they do understand are bizarre. I sincerely hope the whole thing is brought into the light and whipped into shape. Not de-funded or redacted-but IMPROVED. Believe me, it needs it.


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## midphase (Jan 7, 2011)

chimuelo @ Fri Jan 07 said:


> Truth is, they don't care about you, and they never will. You mean nothing to them, and the worlds wealthy are not going to allow themselves to be taxed just to cover mistakes they made from bad legislation they once supported.



Crap...and I thought I was the cynical one!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 7, 2011)

I have to agree with Larry. LBJ certainly fought for the American people.


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## José Herring (Jan 7, 2011)

Actually the polls are being misrepresented. They're lumping full repealers with partial repealers. 

Even Fox news poll says that only about 27% of the people want a full repeal. Most people just want a partial repeal. For me. I think the individual mandate must go.

Jose


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## David Story (Jan 7, 2011)

The US is a plutocracy. The Money uses advertising techniques to control the public. Their #1 brand is confusion. #2 is hate. The classics.

Programs like social security, fda or medicare, have saved millions of lives. Not perfect, but major successes. Look at the before and after poverty and health numbers.
 
The few honest politicians attempting to save or expand these programs get hit with #1 and #2. Hard to not be influenced by a multibillion dollar ad campaign/ political machine.


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## José Herring (Jan 7, 2011)

David Story @ Fri Jan 07 said:


> The US is a plutocracy. The Money uses advertising techniques to control the public. Their #1 brand is confusion. #2 is hate. The classics.
> 
> Programs like social security, fda or medicare, have saved millions of lives. Not perfect, but major successes. Look at the before and after poverty and health numbers.
> 
> The few honest politicians attempting to save or expand these programs get hit with #1 and #2. Hard to not be influenced by a multibillion dollar ad campaign/ political machine.



Amen brother!

Every time I say something like that I get flamed. But it's so true. 

PR machines going full blast all in an effort to control through fear the public at large. And, really who could blame the powers that be. It's so effective. All you have to do to get people to vote for you, or buy your product is to scare them. "Afraid of bad breath" buy x toothpaste. Vote for me because the other guy is a socialist commie. ect...

I implore everybody to read online a manual entitled Psycho Politics. In that manual you'll see exactly what's going on. Though I do think that Reps are far more able to apply psycho politics than dems. And, I do believe that there are more dems wanting to do good than reps.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 7, 2011)

Jose, the whole thing would fall apart without the mandate. But a public option would be better, or Medicare for all...the things Republicans don't want.


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## chimuelo (Jan 7, 2011)

I read the LBJ memoirs from '71 and can only say that LBJ knew he would lose against Robert Kennedy unless he changed his policies completely around.
The Kennedy brothers actually believed in a level playing field and many Middle Class Americans agreed 100%. They paid with their lives.
Eisenhower even warned Americans of the power brokers and dangers of a Global Unity, and here we are 6 wars later watching brave young Americans die for the worlds wealthiest Drug Lords and Oil Sheiks...
We hear of how Europeans don't agree with the USA yet we see them sending troops to every war we participate in. I am quite sure the people of those nations weren't allowed to vote either.
So who is really running this global Utopian society anyways..? We dont seem to have a say so, but yet we are distracted over and over, with new entitlement promises, then no, we need to cut your entitlements you paid into, etc.etc. Meanwhile what still really continues.....?

More loss of freedom, more soldiers sent to Afghanistan and now Yemen.
So I will watch the money and the troop movements, cause I know the dog and pony show that gets all the attention is only meant to provide entertainment and distractions.

Does anyone even notice the amount of soldiers at the Airports....? I remember this when I was a child. There are more teary eyed families seeing off thier children in the Airports than I ever remember.

Replublicans, Democrats................these are figments of the imagination.
Ask Obama, he's a conservative now.............whys that....??
He was told to do so.
So all of this talk about health care is a scam. For 2 years we watched this show and in the meantime banks got more money, from a Liberal Congress that is suppose to despise them.....And we now have a Wall Street power broker as the Presidents chief advisor, who doesn't believe in Health care...... :lol: 

So there's your imaginary left, now just wait and see the GOP turn into liberals in 2014. 
This is the scam. It has worked for decades, and will continue to fool the next generations just like they did with us.

But if it makes anyone feel better, just blame a certain party for all of the shortcomings of their elected " leaders. "
But do yourself a favor.....
When they leave office, find out where they live and go look at thier giant houses with all of the lights on and Limos, and ask yourself were you really represented....?
Then wait and see if they have an electric car, or Solar power, or even recycling bins for plastic.................I seriously doubt you will see that.

But they will have everything they need. Too bad the little people they collected cash for will never see any of that......


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## chimuelo (Jan 8, 2011)

We lead nothing. We do as we please and take what we want.
Its not the country our fathers, and grandfathers fought for.

One would think that we would have learned the benefits that the Marshall plan allowed. Instead of throwing our weight around and using the military as a tool of diplomacy, we should re build our country and use the best parts of the European model that has been allowed to flourish for the last 50 years.
The world owes us nothing. But we need to bring our sons and daughters home and close hundreds of bases worldwide. That would be the proper message.
Our economic uncertainties would disappear.

While in Europe, I noticed their education system was on par with our private education, which I can no longer afford, but at least my son aces every class since I sent him to public schools as a sophmore.
I also noticed they have great medical benefits. Which are paid for by the Government.
I must say I was envious. I paid for my sons education, and pay for my health care. Sure, its the best one can get but it costs me and my better half a hefty chunk of change.
I actually learned Japanese when I came back to the States as I was embarrassed I barely spoke Spanish, and everywhere I went everyone spoke English, and usually 2 other languages.
European kids walk home with stacks of books. Our public schools barely have homework and do nothing to prepare our kids for College.
Thats like throwing them into the street and telling them to follow the rules and play nicely.....

Its our house that is screwed up, and only we can fix it. Someday things will change, but the idea of America being the leader of the " free " world is long gone.
We are protectors of the worlds wealth and the Federal Reserve, nothing more.

Estimated funding of the Federal Reserve.............unknown.......cannot be audited and answers to no one.
Estimated budget for the Pentagogn.........unknown................they haven't even got a budget, its unlimited, and guess what, no accountability no way to be audited....

If this is something to be proud of, I am not impressed.


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## bryla (Jan 8, 2011)

I'm glad you weel that way Chimuelo! I often find Americans coming to Europe to experience how it CAN be. Instead of spending billions of dollars on what they call 'defense' - which is actually attack - they could spend those dollars on themselves.


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## George Caplan (Jan 8, 2011)

Reegs @ Fri Jan 07 said:


> I can only think most of us have trouble with long term planning and long term consequences.
> 
> I think it's the same rationale for why people want a 10% instant (and violent) market rebound and return, rather than steady, slow, predictable growth.



thats only for gamblers like me :lol: like BP for instance. look at the growth in BP since about june of 2010. thanks to america and its politicians people like me can make 75% in 6 months. same thing happened when they opened their collective mouthes about banking. 500% plus on that one over 7 months in 2008/09

i am fairly bullish about the US market recovery to continue into 2011 with obvious exceptions like for instance, california, illinois and new york and surrounding states.


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## midphase (Jan 8, 2011)

tomgahagan @ Sat Jan 08 said:


> Don't like us.... that's cool.... get your self out of LA and back to Italy and fix YOUR country and when you are done with that.... if ever... come on back and buy into the U.S. .... and sacrifice one of YOUR children for it.... become a citizen and so something other than TALK!!!!!!!
> 
> Thomas




Wow...I take it that was directed towards me...very...hmmm...insightful? I suppose you also want that radical Muslim Obama to go back to Kenya huh? Yep, that is much more patriotic than trying to raise awareness towards reality and urging people to inform and educate themselves...but who would want that?

Make no mistake Thomas, people with your attitude are part of the problem and not the solution and as long as people don't question the actions of the Government and inform themselves, things will never get better. Never forget that dissent and not silence is the highest form of patriotism.

P.S.

FYI, I am an American


P.P.S.

As I am typing this, CNN is reporting that Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, D-Arizona was shot at grocery store in Tucson, Arizona. 

Giffords is Pro Choice, Pro establishing a guest worker program, pro renewable energy and pro fixing our education...oh, and she's also Jewish. I suppose it's possible that someone felt she just wasn't "American" enough and decided to "deport" her permanently.

Today I am reminded why Bill Maher gave Arizona the Trophy for Stupidest State.


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## José Herring (Jan 8, 2011)

George Caplan @ Sat Jan 08 said:


> Reegs @ Fri Jan 07 said:
> 
> 
> > I can only think most of us have trouble with long term planning and long term consequences.
> ...



I know. I made about the same in stocks. Unfortunately I didn't have a lot to put in or I'd be sitting pretty!

People talk about the bad economy constantly. The market is better than ever. Sure I feel sorry for the factory worker that can't get a job, but who really wants those kind of jobs any way?

So whenever I hear people complain about a bad economy I just kind of chuckle. We've been sold a bill of goods by elected officials so that they can get into power through fear. Then ply the banks with money. Psycho politics at its best.

A while ago they posted the balance sheets of the banks that got the bailout funds. What a joke. These guys where never in any real trouble. It was all a bunch of paper work of numbers that were imaginary. Worst kind of accounting. So the bail out money came as pure profit for these guys. Horrible. 

I often think that you can be so extreme to on side politically that it turns a circle and the two extremes meet up. So you're extreme liberal cries "keynesian" economics and hands over a trillion dollars to the banks. You're extreme conservative cries "trickle down" economics and hands over trillions to the richest people, which happen to be bankers and wall street guys. It's hilarious! Calling the same horse by a different name. Either way the banks get richer and the worker gets shut out because really the banks don't do the hiring. So unemployment stays high while the "economy" is really at it's strongest in years.

I really thought when I voted for Obama that he saw through the BS. I really did. But, him hiring the JP Morgan exec as his chief of staff. Hmmmmm.... suspect. I use to think Jimmy (chimuelo) was a bit extreme in his opinions. Now I kind of feel that his opinions are more fact than opinion. Wtf happens in this country. Everybody gets corrupted by money and they use fear to get it. We have lost our way.


best,

Jose


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## NYC Composer (Jan 8, 2011)

bryla @ Sat Jan 08 said:


> Larry: That's the whole problem - you actually believe you are the leaders of the free world.... *sigh*
> 
> The US dosn't work even close to half perfectly, but they believe they have to right to tell other countries how they should work?? The house of representatives/senate have proven that the way US democracy works is NOT democratic - so why postulate to the rest of the world, that it is a democracy?



Thomas-sadly, you missed the dry humor. I was being ironic. I cannot speak for the entire country, but the only thing I would like to lead the world in is resolve to treat my fellow human beings well. I do not support huge military expenditures or any wars that are not defnitively defensive.

On the other hand, though we were quite late to the game, if you read your history carefully, without American intervention you might presently be living under the aegis of the Third Reich. Sometimes it's nice to have a flawed but "better than the alternative" ally. Life would not be good for you under a large grey Russian-style Communist regime either, and they were certainly imperialistic enough. You don't think we have a democracy? I disagree. It's certainly not perfect. It's a large, sprawling contentious republic, and very multicultural. Wasn't your country essentially heterogenous for many years? Further, your entire country is about half the population of my CITY. We have a lot more to deal with.

I am not an apologist for my country. We're pretty much a mess in many ways. That said, sometimes it's comforting to deal with the devil you know. The alternatives can look far worse.


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## lux (Jan 8, 2011)

tomgahagan @ Sat Jan 08 said:


> Why would this country give the lives of it's best sons to liberate a people incapable of doing it for themselves only to have them, for years, hate us and think they now have the right to criticize the very people that have provided that right for you?
> 
> Don't like us.... that's cool.... get your self out of LA and back to Italy and fix YOUR country and when you are done with that.... if ever... come on back and buy into the U.S. .... and sacrifice one of YOUR children for it.... become a citizen and so something other than TALK!!!!!!!
> 
> Thomas



this post wins the price as the most uninformed, unjustifying rude and slightly racist post of the week. Cinematic, i would say.

I'm a bit surprides nobody reacts to such a post.


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## hbuus (Jan 8, 2011)

Some Americans seem to believe that everything is better in Europe.

It's not.

Minimum wage is so high, many smaller jobs cannot be undertaken by anybody.

Public welfare is so high for unemployed, that work supply and eventually the economy suffers from of it. What's more, in my country, 60-year olds can even decide themselves to withdraw from employment and go on retirement with primarily public funding. It's insane.

Public welfare is so widespread, it has set into the young people an attitude of not wanting to achieve. Because why strive to achieve when Mother State will always provide for us anyway?

The high taxes has set into the population an attitude of "let's-take-all-we-can-get" from the state. We're paying so much in taxes that we'll be damned if we ain't all gonna benefit from it somehow! Regardless of need.

We have a so-called European Union, but the countries making up the union cannot agree on anything of importance.

etc.

America has a glorious history when it comes to WWII and the Cold War.
Apparently many Americans and Europeans have forgotten that.
No, America is not perfect, but it's still a hell of a lot better than so many other countries I could name.

Best,
Henrik


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## JohnG (Jan 8, 2011)

chimuelo @ 8th January 2011 said:


> Instead of throwing our weight around and using the military as a tool of diplomacy, we should re build our country and use the best parts of the European model that has been allowed to flourish for the last 50 years.
> The world owes us nothing. But we need to bring our sons and daughters home and close hundreds of bases worldwide. That would be the proper message.
> Our economic uncertainties would disappear.



I don't know whether all our economic uncertainties would "disappear," but I like your policy recommendation. Long, long overdue.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 8, 2011)

Rousseau @ Sat Jan 08 said:


> "The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace
> alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with
> an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary."
> 
> H. L. Mencken



I agree with his assertion, but Mencken probably blamed it all on the Jews, as he was an anti-Semite.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 8, 2011)

Jose, he's not right. Socialism and communism are failed ideologies of the 20th century. The European social democratic model works very well, and the aspects of it that we have here are successful too. I'd like to see our country go farther in that direction.

Scandinavia hasn't had total stagnation and death, but there's a worldwide financial crisis right now that's affecting everything.

***

Chimuelo, I agree 100% about the military bases, but - while I don't think this is what you're saying - "economic uncertainty" is Republican Big Lie code for "the reason the economy sucks is that rich people are afraid to invest out of worry that their taxes are going up."

No.


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## snowleopard (Jan 8, 2011)

David Story @ Fri Jan 07 said:


> The US is a plutocracy.


I've been saying this and using this term for some time. 

The issue is that most Americans believe the conservative mantra that if they didn't have to pay taxes they could easily pay for their own health care and savings, and this would cause the economy to grow for everyone. I remember Milton Friedman and Art Laffer insisting this thirty years ago. I'm still waiting for the economic boom Laffer insisted would happen. They also believe the conservative principle that private business always runs more efficiently than government. They don't see the marriage between the government and big business and insider influence we have (plutocracy). Nor that when taxes and regulations are cut, something fills the power vacuum. People don't seem to believe in James Madison's old saying how "If men were angels we'd have no need for government." They hear of government mistakes, and rail against it. While accepting when the same happens in the private sector. Hence = Social Security should be eliminated, but when the tens of thousands of people who lost their retirement when Enron or WorldCom collapsed, that's just the way it goes. 

Having just watched both my parents pass away, and dealing with all of their medical, savings and estate bills, including county, state and federal government officials, I don't think people in this country are as wise as we think. And I don't mean dumb plumb stupid. I mean they just don't know. Most people have no idea what kind of astronomical health care bills await them as they age. They don't understand just how little money they'll have when they are old. And it's not a matter of saving in many cases. My parents did an excellent job of not spending money and putting some away. Medical costs devoured all of it. And they did have Medicare and supplemental insurance. yes, health care is that costly. Many people have a rude awakening when they find out that even if they do save, elder care medical bills wipe out ALL of their savings fairly quickly. 

They believe the conservative mantra that if they didn't have to pay taxes, they could somehow invest the money on their own and save on their own and have plenty of money to pay for health care bills and retirement.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 8, 2011)

snowleopard @ Sat Jan 08 said:


> David Story @ Fri Jan 07 said:
> 
> 
> > The US is a plutocracy.
> ...



First, I am very sorry to hear about your parents. That must be very very hard. I lost my father when I was 12, and it's always been a defining issue in my life.

As to the body of your thesis, I agree with the vast majority of it. It is sad that people need to be forced into empathy for their fellow humans, but it seems to be pretty well established that it is so, so I shrug and go with it. I've worked hard all my life and paid plenty of taxes, and I have absolute certainty that a good deal of my money has been squandered. That said, I don't believe private enterprise would have been any better at administering the funds, nor any less corrupt, and I do believe in taking care of the indigent, the elderly and children as to helping to provide them with the basic necessities of life.

All that said, I love this crazy country. I don't want to live in France. I'm sure it's lovely and humanistic and all, but it also appears to me to be smug and pretentious and very contentious in its own way (see constant strikes). An aggrieved sense of entitlement seems to be the European model.

I don't lecture the Europeans. I'm happy that they're happy with their way of life, god bless them. Just don't lecture me about my country, or if you must, throw away your iPods, stop watching any American entertainment and if you need a powerful military ally, don't call, good luck to you.


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## midphase (Jan 8, 2011)

My question is...if people want to police themselves when it comes to basic social behavior like making sure that nobody drops dead in the street or that companies don't dump toxic chemicals into our drinking supply...then would the next level of their rejection of government intrusion be to outlaw law enforcement?

I don't think many are following this to its logical conclusion, but if we're talking about less government involvement and intrusion...then we're talking about going to the laws of the wild west where everyone pretty much policed themselves.

Sad that Tea Partiers and Libertarians don't see how damaging this course of actions is.


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## José Herring (Jan 8, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Jan 08 said:


> Jose, he's not right. Socialism and communism are failed ideologies of the 20th century. The European social democratic model works very well, and the aspects of it that we have here are successful too. I'd like to see our country go farther in that direction.
> 
> Scandinavia hasn't had total stagnation and death, but there's a worldwide financial crisis right now that's affecting everything.
> 
> ...



Then you'd like to see hyper inflation, economic stagnation, lack of motivation in the populace and eventual death. But, you should be happy. It's happening all over.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 8, 2011)

I pretty much count on eventual death to thin the herd-think of the alternative :wink:


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## chimuelo (Jan 8, 2011)

Nick I was referring to long term foriegn investment.
People invest in China at a very small amount in comparison to the USA.
The tax scare is accurate but misleading. Typical political rhetoric.

For example, there are no taxes on selling drugs in Mexico, but then again there are no profits or market. The USAs' middle class creates wealth as it is the largest pool of consumers still in the world. So nobody really cares about the taxes. 

An example is long term Saudi investment. They get to regulate Oil prices for us, and we get to take all of the money we spend on foreign Oil and re invest it locally.
When the leaders of our nation talk about less Oil dependance its just scare tactics for us commoners. Our Presidents still bow when they visit, and we still send our troops where they want.

But uncertainty comes from a White House that lacks experience and sends mixed messages. The EPA, DOJ and FCC are full of idealogs with nobodys interests at heart except their personal beliefs and agendas. When some Suadi lobbyist goes to Congress with 600 Million bucks, he will be guaranteed a certain favor, and yes its corrupt, but that's what greed and capitalism are all about. But by having the EPA operating outside of Congressional approval, and sidestepping the usual constitutional procedures, that gives investors pause. Especially when they represent Suadi Oil interests.
Obamas advisors have all thankfully got their hats handed to them. But we need to see more of these professors go back to school, and more business orientated people calling the shots.
This is the uncertainty I speak about.
Its just common sense supply economics. Its what built our economy and whether or not the Obama elites know this, its also based on Oil.
The Saudis actually fear Sarah Palin and the drill baby drill people more than the Global Warming guys with their Lear Jets. They know George Soros and the Al Gores of the world are a scam, but they also realize that Sarah Palin is a nut and millions of people adore her.
All Patriotism aside, she is more dangerous to the economy than all of the big spending liberals in Congress.


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## Andrew Aversa (Jan 8, 2011)

Heh... "big spending liberals". If you look at all the Republican presidents of the last, oh, 40 years or so, they have always spent MORE money than Democratic presidents, not to mentioned created more debt/deficits, whereas Democrats have spent less and balanced the budget better. 

Of course, ask any Republican about this and they'll just stand there in a stupor.


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## snowleopard (Jan 8, 2011)

I don't get what you're saying Jose. What is going to cause hyper inflation, economic stagnation, lack of motivation, etc.? 

Or maybe I don't get what Nick is saying? 



midphase @ Sat Jan 08 said:


> I don't think many are following this to its logical conclusion, but if we're talking about less government involvement and intrusion...then we're talking about going to the laws of the wild west where everyone pretty much policed themselves.


Well, to use the libertarian mindset; in an ideal free society all payment for government services would be voluntary. Essentially voluntary taxes. And people wouldn't want lawlessness, so they would donate money to the local police/fire/judicial, etc. fund. 

_If all men were angels..._

This is fueled by the Friedman/Laffer supply-side economic principle that implies that such an economic system would result in rapid economic growth. Hence, plenty of money for everyone to pay for government services. 

I don't want to keep harping on Laffer though. He had his ass handed to him in a bet with Peter Schiff about the recent economic collapse, and is much more realistic in recent years on the economy and now supports a flat tax.


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## midphase (Jan 9, 2011)

I think it's been shown again and again that anything "voluntary" doesn't work when it comes to people looking out for their well being. Remember the guy in Teneesee who had to watch his house burn to the ground because he refused to pay the "voluntary" tax for the fire department?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39516346/ns/us_news-life/

If people don't want to pay for mandatory health care...does that mean that if they have an emergency they're willing to die unaided and not become a burden on the rest of the population? I don't think so. 

I would argue that most Tea Partiers or Libertarians who are right now arguing against the constitutionality of the Health Care Reform would quickly change their minds should they get themselves in just such a predicament.

Same goes with welfare. I recently heard an interview on NPR of people who had previously been highly opposed to governmental unemployment benefits and yet now found themselves unemployed and had changed their tune.

As a modern society, we have the responsibility to quite literally protect people from themselves. I do think that a large contingent of the population (mostly the uneducated masses) definitely fall in the category of "if you give them enough rope, they will hang themselves." 

If the Government hadn't stepped in to "guide" the population from time to time, we would probably still have segregation, child labor, low job safety and a great deal of elderlies living in the streets. How can most people not see this?


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## George Caplan (Jan 9, 2011)

josejherring @ Sat Jan 08 said:


> I know. I made about the same in stocks. Unfortunately I didn't have a lot to put in or I'd be sitting pretty!
> 
> People talk about the bad economy constantly. The market is better than ever. Sure I feel sorry for the factory worker that can't get a job, but who really wants those kind of jobs any way?



one of the mistakes that people may make when it comes to investment is the idea that markets and job/payroll numbers are inextricably linked. the way we work is more to do with sectors and over in the uk market for around 15 yrs that has been a good base to work around. the main uk indices has not recovered to its 2000 level and here we are 11 yrs on but turmoil is food and drink to people like us and its no secret. short selling in the uk and the us has been a boon for a lot of hedge fund managers and investors.





josejherring @ Sat Jan 08 said:


> A while ago they posted the balance sheets of the banks that got the bailout funds. What a joke. These guys where never in any real trouble. It was all a bunch of paper work of numbers that were imaginary. Worst kind of accounting. So the bail out money came as pure profit for these guys. Horrible.



some banks were in trouble and should have been allowed to go to the wall. some did in the us but they should have let 2 big clearing banks go down in the uk. the trick at the time was research. when a certain middle eastern state is buying big into a certain uk bank then it stands to reason 7 billion uk sterling cant all be wrong.
the biggest mistake made was letting lehmans go down as ive mentioned many times before and anyone in the business knew it at the time.



josejherring @ Sat Jan 08 said:


> I often think that you can be so extreme to on side politically that it turns a circle and the two extremes meet up. So you're extreme liberal cries "keynesian" economics and hands over a trillion dollars to the banks. You're extreme conservative cries "trickle down" economics and hands over trillions to the richest people, which happen to be bankers and wall street guys. It's hilarious! Calling the same horse by a different name. Either way the banks get richer and the worker gets shut out because really the banks don't do the hiring. So unemployment stays high while the "economy" is really at it's strongest in years.



politics is too complicated when making investment decisions. sure politics and events have an effect on markets but that is part of the turmoil i mentioned that can through timing allow investments to be made more towards the bottom than the top. if you think about what markets have done through world wars and so forth it just goes to show.
for example say iran suddenly kicks off. what effect will that have on world stock makers. down rapidly just like when the first gulf war started in the early nineties. then its down to timing dependent on what type of call you like to make whether it be shorting or buying into or whatever.


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## CFDG (Jan 9, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSJmN-Mg978


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## Peter Alexander (Jan 16, 2011)

In answer to your question, all countries do the same. See Barbara Tuchman's The March of Folly: From Troy to Vietnam for many examples.


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