# How much Formal Training in Film Scoring do you recommend?



## arielblacksmith (Jan 17, 2015)

Recently im looking at masters and certifications in Film Scoring and
I was curious how much Formal Training everyone has around here has and how much
they would recommend.

I know Directors dont look at titles but at your music and your work, but i`ve been thinking studying in UCLA/USC could really open connection in Los Angeles.

I have narrowed it down to 3 options

1-UCLA
2-Pulse College
3- ThnkSpace Online Master in Film Scoring

what does everyone here think about?? 

Thanks for your time!


----------



## Greg (Jan 17, 2015)

Zero formal training but I do plan to go back to study music theory and harmony in greater depth once I have more free time.

It's not as crucial as you might think, unless you prefer having a teacher / mentor. The money was better spent on the tools I needed, in my case anyways.


----------



## JohnG (Jan 17, 2015)

James Horner has a PhD, I believe, from the Royal College of Music. John Williams has a lot of training as well. Jerry Goldsmith, I can't remember but that guy is not self-taught. Thomas Newman had formal training, as did David and the rest of his family, from what I've heard.

Some haven't.

I like Guy Michelmore -- very funny and practical.


----------



## Rctec (Jan 17, 2015)

:roll: I've never seen anyone come out of those classes knowing how to score a film. They know a lot about the history of film-scoring, but never any real "picture sense". And we must have had about a hundred college-educated composers come through our doors over the years.
People like Henry Jackman, Harry Gregson-Williams, Ramin Djawadi and John Powell had a very solid music-education background that they then added the experience of working to picture to, working with directors and great music editors like Bob Badami and Adam Smalley.
I seem to remember that Henry's trajectory (short version) was me hearing a track he'd done in his bedroom, getting him in to tidy up midi tracks on 'Pirates 2' (which was more archeological - trying to dig through a huge, disorganized mess from the previous one and totally uncreative), doing a little orchestration on 'Da Vinci Code', then getting more involved in 'The Holiday', until - on 'Kung Fu Panda' - he was really part of the creative conversation with the producers and directors and Dreamworks offering him his own movies.
But, seriously, I've never come across anyone who'd done these courses that had an advantage over any other well-trained composer.
If I had to start out now, I'd try to become an assistant to a great music editor. They can really teach picture sense.

-Hz-


----------



## José Herring (Jan 17, 2015)

I had a lot of training as a performer. Zero composition classes. I never liked any of the music composition majors were writing.

The thing I learned from composition majors is that a horrible piece of music performed well is passable. Another composition graduate told me when i started composing that if you want a good arrangement hire good players. These days I would add to that be a great programmer.


----------



## Jem7 (Jan 17, 2015)

Hans is right. A college degree or any formal training is nothing to do with working on the picture. Yes it will help to know all theory and stuff but nothing can teach you as real experience.

Before I really worked on the picture I thought like I knew everything about it but in my first experinece I was really stuck and don't know what to do.


----------



## Gerhard Westphalen (Jan 17, 2015)

I think that regardless of what you do, you'll need to develop most of your skills on your own. 

The benefits that I see from doing some of the programs are that in many cases you get to have experience with a real orchestra and some of the schools work with film students where you can make connections. 

I've heard that the UCLA program isn't very good. I heard a story where one of the professors suggested to one of the students that he drop out because he wouldn't learn much and that the program is geared towards people who have never written any music or touched a daw. On the other hand, I've heard that the USC program is superb. Berklee and the Royal Conservatory also have masters programs in film scoring.


----------



## Jdiggity1 (Jan 17, 2015)

As HZ mentioned, it is 'picture sense' that is vital to doing the job right. Not theoretical knowledge or even orchestration chops.
I recently completed a full time screen music degree here in Sydney, and it was extremely helpful in developing a picture sense. Not from classes, but from working on 8 short films (mix of drama and doco) while I was there, and having mentors whos feedback seemed to be spot-on every time.
A lot of time was spent in classes learning about the importance of story and history of film and yadda yadda yadda, but it was really the actual 'doing' part that made it so worth while. Being involved in a film from inception to completion, working closely with directors, editors, sound supervisors, the whole team. A much richer experience than doing the whole thing from home via dropbox.


If a course can offer you these practical experiences, _which you feel you would be unable to get otherwise_, then I believe study is a good thing.
None of my course looked at music in a theoretical sense. 
There was never anything like "this is how you write action music...". The whole focus was about how to read picture, and knowing what it needs or doesn't need. Taught by a couple of screen music veterans with lifetimes of experience.


----------



## José Herring (Jan 17, 2015)

Picture sense is what a film composer is ultimately paid for but if you want to bring more to the work it takes training, whether you train yourself or get help, I don't think that matters. History is filled with great composers from both sides of the education spectrum.


----------



## ryans (Jan 17, 2015)

I guess this is sort of echoing what others have said... I've heard James Horner talk about the importance of 'emotional sensitivity to the picture' or something along those lines... a completely unteachable skill, anywhere.. in my opinion.

That said my experience with formal training (royal conservatory performance and university composition) has been incredibly rewarding and fun. I can only recommend it.

Ryan


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Jan 17, 2015)

Two things are being confused here: formal music training and specifically a film scoring degree or certificate.

Guys like John Powell, James Newton Howard Shore, , may not have the latter but certainly have the former. That said if you look at the curriculum of the film scoring program at UCLA Extension, you will see that you can get both. https://www.uclaextension.edu/pages/ProgramDetails.aspx?reg=CF513 (https://www.uclaextension.edu/pages/Pro ... ?reg=CF513)

It may indeed not give you "picture sense" as you only develop that by doing it but it certainly cannot hurt.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 17, 2015)

I sure learned a lot about all of the above going through the film comp program at Berklee. And that was a long time ago.

...which is not to say I've been working as a film composer for a long time either; I've been in music journalism with one foot in music. But I managed to get pretty far in the ten years I was a struggling composer, and it was because of the training.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 17, 2015)

Takin' it old school...


----------



## AC986 (Jan 18, 2015)

My own view is basically anyone who didn't attend The Royal College Music is a peasant.


----------



## dgburns (Jan 18, 2015)

I think I learned more from Video editors ,they seem to be very image and story oriented.But there is something to say about the very strange craft of applying music to scenes.It blows my mind how many possibilities are actually out there,and somehow you have to come up with just one of those possibilites.
I seem to ask the question "what if" alot these days.
but what if can be dangerous as a what if can lead to hours and hours of exploration.where does all the time go?


----------



## bbunker (Jan 18, 2015)

Just for your info, the UCLA visual media program is no longer taking applicants. They of course still offer their program in concert music composition, but if you're looking specifically for a SMPTV course, that's no longer available:

http://music.ucla.edu/composition-curriculum -- (look at the big red text at the top of the page!)

Personally, I'd say focus less on the program and more on the professors. Listen to their works, listen to what they have to say, what they think, and who they are as people. Visit the campus, and ask pointed questions about who you'll be working with, and how much time you'll get with the people you want to be working with. Ian Krouse and Bruce Broughton are both at UCLA - but which Lecturers would you actually spend most of your time with?

And wherever you go, keep in mind that what you get out of any study of any kind is directly linked to what you put into it.


----------



## sluggo (Jan 18, 2015)

If I could do it over....

GO TO FILM SCHOOL.

Look at the qualifications to be a film composer...NONE. 
If you are not talented, please figure that out fast. People (other than your mom) should be telling you that you are talented. If that's not happening. Just stop. 

Get a strong education in MUSIC. Not a film music degree. Those didn't exist for the longest time while there were great film composers. It's a craft worthy of a semester, not an entire degree. 

But if you go to film school...
You'll meet other film makers, score their films, and then maybe even make your own films WHICH IS WAY BETTER THAN BEING A COMPOSER. 
Then you can score your own films LIKE A BOSS.

Oh how I wish I could tell 17 year old me what I just told the internet.


----------



## arielblacksmith (Jan 18, 2015)

Thanks for all the input guys! really appreciate it

I have learned music through the years by talking to other musicians, tutorials, workshops in my hometown and being a performer just like Jose

(Keyboard player in a Symphonic metal band).

Im currently on Berklee Online which has helped a lot and currently taking Orchestration there(the certification is on Arrangement and Orchestration) I havent considered Berklee Master because it asks for a music degree which I dont have.

As a life experience I would love to be in a program which offers me writing for live orchestra in a continous basis and now with all the input here will look for programs with emphasis on having many film projects so I can start to develop the picture sense 

The UCLA program im looking is the one one Jay posted, im tempted because of the classes in Film Music Editing, The internship, the film scoring ones and conducting (thats the dream! )

Now I have homework to do and research deeply each of the programs, thanks again!!

-Ariel


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Jan 18, 2015)

sluggo @ Sun Jan 18 said:


> If I could do it over....
> 
> GO TO FILM SCHOOL.
> 
> ...



So when I was 17 with no gift for visuals and no interest in creating them I should spend hour after hour after hour learning how to do that instead of practicing piano and studying theory, composition, harmony, orchestration/instrumentation, and counterpoint plus learning the mechanics of putting music to picture?

I don't think so.


----------



## Gerhard Westphalen (Jan 18, 2015)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Jan 18 said:


> sluggo @ Sun Jan 18 said:
> 
> 
> > If I could do it over....
> ...



I agree with Jay in that if you have no interest in making films, learning all the nitty gritty details of making a film would be a waste of time which could be spent developing other skills, however, perhaps taking a few courses (online?) in film and editing might do the trick.


----------



## givemenoughrope (Jan 18, 2015)

HZ and others, 
talk more about 'film sense', please! Like in specifics if possible.

I get the impression that there are a lot of film composers or budding ones that don't have it bc they are aren't obsessive about films/stories or film making. Or maybe they would have more of it?

I know that since I got bitten by the bug (just the movie bug as a real fan) all I can think about are effective scenes either with or without music. (And often music has only a very secondary role if at all.) What happens with different music, different entrances/exits, if it's shifted one second forward or backward...what does it mean and how does it make me feel? famous ex.: the music entrance at the moment that Roger Thornhill realizes that he's be kidnapped...different start time, different effect i'd guess. 

anyway, we read/write about synths, daws, deadlines and royalties. I think we should talk about this a bit more. A lot more.


----------



## SyMTiK (Jan 18, 2015)

Rctec @ Sat Jan 17 said:


> If I had to start out now, I'd try to become an assistant to a great music editor. They can really teach picture sense.
> 
> -Hz-



What would you say is the best way to go around doing that? I can't imagine it's as easy as sending them a letter, especially as a 17 year old still in high school. I would love to find ways I can get involved, I just don't really know how.


----------



## JohnG (Jan 18, 2015)

Well, everyone has his or her own ideas about this. Quite often it seems that people slag off the approach they haven't taken, suggesting that the "real" way to be a composer / media composer is the path they've pursued and hinting that the alternative approach is for lesser men.

I have never regretted anything I've learned about music, from Byrd to Bartok to Pårt to Goldsmith to the Sex Pistols. I've learned from orchestrators, other media composers, copyists. Definitely from players and singers.

Like many here, I've learned a lot from directors, actors, and editors.

But I also feel studying art, sculpture, dance, literature, poetry, philosophy, and all the other courses I've ever taken inform the music I write.

That, plus being a son, a father, a brother, a caregiver -- all of life, really.

One question I have is whether people want to be better composers, or to be "more successful." While the two are not wholly separate, there is naturally some tension there. I sing every week with a group that includes a composer whose scorn for media music is so obvious it's actually hilarious. His antipathy is probably more amusing to me, as my own skepticism about what I'll generalise as "academic" music is also strong. I was mocking some 20th century techniques just this morning, in fact, and he mocked right back. He is a spectacular musician, for what it's worth.

Over time, I find it quite helpful to rejuvenate my work with ideas from academe, even though my music doesn't really sound that way at all; it's still good to know about it.

What works for one person and gives genuine satisfaction may not work for another. I am glad of (nearly) every class I've ever taken in music, and in other subjects too. And life experience or informal learning as well.

Whatever I do, I'm conscious of a higher standard, beyond what's good enough; I always remember that there are geniuses who far surpass whatever I am likely to accomplish. Whether it's Homer, Anselm, Fielding, Beethoven, or Dante, being better acquainted with their ideas, thoughts, and work make me, I think, a more satisfied person.

So I'm all for education, formal or otherwise. I really don't understand why anyone thinks it's not both enriching and useful.


----------



## TimJohnson (Jan 18, 2015)

Drop me an email to [email protected]! I would be happy to discuss your options with you.

All the best,

Tim


----------



## José Herring (Jan 18, 2015)

Also, keep in mind that Hollywood has been turned on its head as far as music is concerned in the last 3 to 5 years with people just chasing after the hippest thing. People scoring films that probably shouldn't be scoring films. The dearth of talent at the top is getting quite annoying if not down right depressing. 

I just heard a score by little known composer Zacarías M. De la Riva that kind of reminded me why I wanted to do film in the first place. Funny that living in LA the movie mecca I've had to listen to scores from foreign films to get re-interested in film scoring again.

Also worthy of note is that of the Academy award nominees All of them are foreign born composers and 2 of them don't even live in the US or have anything to do with Hollywood. That for some reason pretty much answered any doubt I have as to what's happened to film music here.

So for all young composers. Don't follow what's happening here. Stay in school. Get an education. Contribute more to film and music than what's currently the most "cutting edge" shit.


----------



## SamGarnerStudios (Jan 18, 2015)

In my 2nd year of a Master's degree. The greatest thing is meeting people, being exposed to music, and most importantly getting the opportunity to compose for and record live orchestra, which I've done. But that's only because I'm at a big school with a lot of money, don't know how that plays into your situation. I'd do the Thinkspace one if I were to make a choice now. Forget school.


----------



## loinnam (Jan 18, 2015)

You may find this interview with Blake Neely of interest - as he discusses the matter in-depth.

"...I understand that you received rejection letter from University of Texas stating you “should consider another career path then music” – what sweet irony..."

http://8dio.com/#blog/blakeneely/


----------



## José Herring (Jan 18, 2015)

funny you should mention Blake Neely, in many ways TV has become the medium for music that film should be. The only problem with TV is that the budgets and the time constraints make it less than it actually could be.


----------



## arielblacksmith (Jan 18, 2015)

TimJohnson @ Sun Jan 18 said:


> Drop me an email to [email protected]! I would be happy to discuss your options with you.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Tim



Did it! its under the name "Question about the Master in Orchestration for film game and television‏" 

If it was missed (was sent on the 17) I can resend it easily


Sam, out of curiosity where are you studying??


----------



## nikolas (Jan 19, 2015)

Tim, why not post in public your reply? Even Hans goes in public! :D

I hold a PhD in composition and I don't regret a thing. I also do NOT do film, but I do some (indie) computer games, where a PhD never came in handy. 

On the other hand I work extensively in classical music, where a PhD never came in handy.

On the last hand, I also teacher, where a PhD never came in handy.
 
In other words I've never shown the actual paper to anyone apart from parents and wife.

________________________________

BUT

I wouldn't be the man I am without the PhD, I wouldn't compose the way I do, I wouldn't orchestrate the way I do, I wouldn't think like I do... And this is something that I consider crucial to... who I am!

So, I'd say go for it. There's nothing bad about being educated, as long as you don't think yourself too high... :-/ (which can be the case anyway, education or no education).


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 19, 2015)

Maybe I'm a weirdo, but I only started to get serious about music at 24. 17? Do stupid things (not permanent-damage stupid), rock out, sleep-in, go on dates/learn how to kiss, get drunk, travel, bite into the world, taking large chunks. Seems to me that at that age, there is still so much time before one has to commit.

I will say that in my experience with university really opened my ears, and I made a number of very good friends, including two of the professors.


----------



## muk (Jan 19, 2015)

Marvellous post Nikolas! I see it likewise.


----------



## dcoscina (Jan 19, 2015)

Nowadays i think its less important given technology and what is in demand. Not a diss just an observation. 20-30 years ago having grounding in orchestration and formal training helped more but today the technology and what directors/audiences like doesnt really demand that someone know imitative counterpoint or fugal writing. Goldsmith and Williams studied with Mario Castlenuevo Tedesco as far as composition and Williams was a session pianist on many Hollywood scoring sessions. goldsmith worked his way up through. cBS television. But that was the '60s. 

Like Hans says, apprenticeship is the best way to learn. To be honest, i learned more from working with William Stromberg on a project than i ever did in university though as Nikolas said, it helped shaped the composer i am so its hard to divorce the education importance as far as fundamental music understanding.


----------



## wst3 (Jan 19, 2015)

I don't believe that there is a right way, and I don't think that there ever was, but I'll hedge that.

If you want to teach you need credentials - at least most educational institutions require them. But you didn't ask about teaching, so we come down to a more pragmatic set of questions.

You will learn about music in a music school, and by being surrounded by like minded classmates you'll be immersed in it. You'll also start to learn about schedules and pressure as your assignments start to come due.

But mostly you'll learn to think about music is a very specific way (the specifics of which depend on the school - Eastman is very different from UCLA is very different from Julliard or Curtis).

I think that's a good thing, but it is not the only way. 

You can teach yourself by listening to a TON of music, and by figuring out for yourself how they did it. Which is one of the things you'll do in music school, but it will be less structured if you do it on your own. On the other hand, you may be exposed to compositions you would not have considered if they are assigned as homework<G>!

You can apprentice, which used to be a very popular path when you couldn't swing a dead cat in LA without hitting a recording studio (no cats were harmed in the preparation of this post!)

What works for you is what works for you.

My own path has been pretty odd by anyone's standards, and I'm certainly not (yet) what one would refer to as a successful professional composer. Far from it, but that's ok, the path is as important as the destination.

I think a college degree is invaluable for a lot of reasons. I wouldn't trade mine for a desk at Remote Control. (yes, a fine use of hyperbole!)

I do not think college should be viewed as specific career preparation so much as it is life preparation. At least that's what it was for me. 

I know a LOT of folks that did not go to college and yet are both happy and successful. They knew what they wanted, and they went after it.

By the same token, I know doctors, lawyers, engineers, and architects who are happy and successful, and college was the only route for them. But most, if not all of them knew that was what they wanted.

That wasn't me! I think I always knew what I wanted, it just took me longer to figure it out, or more to the point, accept it.

Whew - all that to suggest that you probably won't regret a formal education, but there are alternatives. The tricky part is figuring out which path works for you.


----------



## Rv5 (Jan 19, 2015)

My university experience revolves around the environment and the experience, regarding real world application of formal training others with far more experience above have that covered. But here is why I would go the university 'route' again (not that I'm at my end goal yet, but here is how university has helped me so far) :

I relished studying music at university - it wasn't specifically for film, though there was a film module. There were also modules for psychological approaches to music, contemporary composition, improvisation, music of africa and asia, music of soviet russia, the opportunity to poach players - I'd always knock on practice room doors and take people's emails/numbers, I now have a database of hundreds of players in and around London I can call on. Someone always seemed to know someone - one lecturer had worked with Patrick Doyle, someone I met through someone else had worked with Conrad Pope etc.

The uni also had a media department so I scored as many student films as I possibly could, a friend of a friend of one of these has now ended up editing film trailers for a cool trailer house in London giving me some work. Internship mails would be sent to the uni and passed on - I got a job at a studio writing music for TV and radio from this. At this point I took a year out of uni to focus on this, but wanted to finish the degree for various reasons.

I framed my studies around my end goal of scoring for film - it really is about what you make it. Not so much the formal trailining on its own, but being around musicians day in day out. Having people making films just in the other building, getting lost in Bach, Brahms, Shostakovich, Xenakis, Cage etc, friends' and lecturers' compositions, being in the choir and being in concerts and going to the pub afterwards. Having access to the resources - I befriended the technicians, they were the ones with the keys to the equipment, rooms and studios!! 

All the while you make your own opportunities of course, but at the same time taking the opportunities being in that kind of environment gives you. A degree isn't necessary of course! But I loved psychological approaches to music and spoke at length with my professor, there are opportunities now to conduct my own studies with her guidance and persue post-graduate study in it. You take your degree with you for life and if you desire can turn it into something else - a friend is turning hers into Law, another medicine, off the basis of an undergrad degree (in England at least) and (in my experience) it can be done while aiding your journey to film composer ( but of course - it is not the only path, just one and this is about why I enjoyed it)

I thrived on the energy of such a dynamic place with such creative thinkers which helped motivate me to persue my goals. This worked out into experiencing scoring films, working with directors, getting 'real-world' work for TV and ultimately an internship offer in LA with a film composer (finances and logistics have held me back with this but I'm working on it day in day out).

So in my experience, it wasn't the formal training of film scoring so much as the whole university experience, which you carve yourself really. It leaves you with options and experiences and hopefully doors opening to where you want to be. These are perhaps other things I'd suggest thinking about when considering uni. It's not for everyone of course, and it all depends on what's available to you etc! Would I have got the internship opportunity had I not gone to uni? Possibly! But the experiences, memories, contacts and friends made along the way I feel have helped create a me more capable of being a film composer, if that makes sense.. excuse the ramble!


----------



## Creston (Jan 19, 2015)

I think there's some snobbery when it comes to formal training. I don't see how anyone could say there are composers who SHOULDN'T be scoring films. If they're getting the work and you're not, maybe you need to evolve and try new things. 

I have no formal music training. I had guitar lessons for 4 years, but with tabs. However, I listened to music growing up obsessively with headphones. I've always wanted to be involved with any interest I have. I was obsessed with the layering of guitars on albums like Siamese Dream, the production, the chord voicing. Then came my obsession with ambient music like Brian Eno. I'd gone from layering and layering to trying to figure out how to express something with so little. This then led to my interest in film music and because my music was always fairly cinematic, a music supervisor put me in touch with a producer/director who had just emailed them that day. I started my first paid gig 5 days after buying Logic 8. I've always believed I can do anything I put my mind to and learn fast in a non linear way. This is partly due to my upbringing and seeing the various creative careers my parents did, jumping into the deep end every time. I also have gone through a lot of experiences in my life to draw from emotionally. A balance of ups and downs. I also like creative people and art in general and love talking and collaborating with directors. They bring the best out of me. I'm lucky that I've started developing relationships with directors where we talk about ideas at script stage. 

I think formal music training is also partly limited to those from certain backgrounds. Most composers seem to come from middle class backgrounds. Have had a piano in the home (and a home big enough to house one). Have had lessons paid for over the years. There are obviously exceptions to this rule. But from my childhood, learning the piano or violin was just something kids did whether they wanted to or not (mostly not) when they were from a certain background. 

Growing up, 3 of my best friends all had formal music training from a young age (and can't write 4 bars of music). All from wealthy families. No one else could afford a piano let alone years of lessons. Unless you grow up in this situation it's hard to get into a music school (I'd be interested in doing this at some point) to go on to become a composer in the typical way one might 20-30 or so years ago. 

Computers have democratized film composing and I love that. I scrape by now after only doing this a few years, but I'm still interested in learning and would even be interested in being an assistant to a composer or music editor. But it seems hard to do that unless you've come from a formal music training background.


----------



## AC986 (Jan 19, 2015)

Creston @ Mon Jan 19 said:


> I think there's some snobbery when it comes to formal training. I don't see how anyone could say there are composers who SHOULDN'T be scoring films. If they're getting the work and you're not, maybe you need to evolve and try new things.
> 
> I have no formal music training. I had guitar lessons for 4 years, but with tabs. However, I listened to music growing up obsessively with headphones. I've always wanted to be involved with any interest I have. I was obsessed with the layering of guitars on albums like Siamese Dream, the production, the chord voicing. Then came my obsession with ambient music like Brian Eno. I'd gone from layering and layering to trying to figure out how to express something with so little. This then led to my interest in film music and because my music was always fairly cinematic, a music supervisor put me in touch with a producer/director who had just emailed them that day. I started my first paid gig 5 days after buying Logic 8. I've always believed I can do anything I put my mind to and learn fast in a non linear way. This is partly due to my upbringing and seeing the various creative careers my parents did, jumping into the deep end every time. I also have gone through a lot of experiences in my life to draw from emotionally. A balance of ups and downs. I also like creative people and art in general and love talking and collaborating with directors. They bring the best out of me. I'm lucky that I've started developing relationships with directors where we talk about ideas at script stage.
> 
> ...



^^^^^

Nick you owe me 20 bucks.

:lol:


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 19, 2015)




----------



## Daryl (Jan 19, 2015)

The most important skill is being able to compose. Without that, you can have all the picture sensitivity in the world, but your score will still be sh*t.

D


----------



## Lawson. (Jan 19, 2015)

Rctec @ Sat Jan 17 said:


> :roll: I've never seen anyone come out of those classes knowing how to score a film. They know a lot about the history of film-scoring, but never any real "picture sense". And we must have had about a hundred college-educated composers come through our doors over the years.
> People like Henry Jackman, Harry Gregson-Williams, Ramin Djawadi and John Powell had a very solid music-education background that they then added the experience of working to picture to, working with directors and great music editors like Bob Badami and Adam Smalley.
> I seem to remember that Henry's trajectory (short version) was me hearing a track he'd done in his bedroom, getting him in to tidy up midi tracks on 'Pirates 2' (which was more archeological - trying to dig through a huge, disorganized mess from the previous one and totally uncreative), doing a little orchestration on 'Da Vinci Code', then getting more involved in 'The Holiday', until - on 'Kung Fu Panda' - he was really part of the creative conversation with the producers and directors and Dreamworks offering him his own movies.
> But, seriously, I've never come across anyone who'd done these courses that had an advantage over any other well-trained composer.
> ...



Great info, thanks!


----------



## Creston (Jan 19, 2015)

adriancook @ Mon Jan 19 said:


> Nick you owe me 20 bucks.
> 
> :lol:



(o)


----------



## gsilbers (Jan 19, 2015)

arielblacksmith @ Sun Jan 18 said:


> T
> 
> (Keyboard player in a Symphonic metal band).
> 
> ...



you are already qualified... as long as you take it half speed :mrgreen: =o /\~O _-)


----------



## arielblacksmith (Jan 19, 2015)

gsilbers @ Mon Jan 19 said:


> arielblacksmith @ Sun Jan 18 said:
> 
> 
> > T
> ...



but but but....*throws away half of his scores*


----------



## TimJohnson (Jan 20, 2015)

arielblacksmith @ Mon Jan 19 said:


> TimJohnson @ Sun Jan 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Drop me an email to [email protected]! I would be happy to discuss your options with you.
> ...



Apologies but I do not seem to be able to find this email. It would be great if you could resend it and I'll get back to you asap.



nikolas @ Mon Jan 19 said:


> Tim, why not post in public your reply? Even Hans goes in public! :D



Simply because I was (and still am) extremely busy running two MA programmes in film scoring and orchestration!

My brief response is that no form of further education is redundant and we should never stop striving to learn more about our craft. I haven't read everyone's comments but I wonder if the point has been made that people often do creative MA's, or even undergraduate degrees for different reasons than, say, a doctor. It is a safe environment to practice your skills under guidance and without fear of reprisals. It is an opportunity to meet and learn from like minded people in exactly the same position. Despite the number of people practicing film/media music composition or orchestration these days, one can still feel incredibly isolated. An MA or undergraduate degree softens this somewhat.

There are some great Master's programmes out there. Personally I went through the RCM Composition for Screen course and still think that it was one of the best life decision I ever made. It resulted in a wealth of work, invaluable contacts and life long friends.

I was also hoping that someone else might make this point, but I'm going to go out on a limb and make it anyway. I have seen/heard of/witnessed a number of top level composers going directly to institutions with MA programmes in (film) composition to find their assistants. I even have good friends who _"found their way in"_ like this. This may or may not be how Mr Zimmer finds his assistants, but it is certainly a common approach. Let me ask you, if you are looking for an assistant and you have 200 applications, what is the easiest way off whittling them down to a manageable number?

An MA isn't for everyone, but for those willing to put the time into learning it is certainly a valid avenue into achieving ones goals.

That's the brief response! I hope it was of some worth.


----------



## arielblacksmith (Jan 20, 2015)

Hi Tim! I just realized I had send the mail to [email protected] instead of education, I just sent the mail! 

Thanks in advance


----------



## nikolas (Jan 20, 2015)

Tim thanks for you reply. My point in asking is that if you're going to spend some time replying to someone privately, you might as well do so in public and thus the whole community will gain from your reply.

Your recent (last) post is very well thought and made.

And I will repeat that I don't do film music and semi-occasionally computer game music, so I'm not the best guy to ask about this whole issue in the first place! :D So... there... (but I am officially educated in music! :D )


----------



## ThinkSpace Education (Jan 21, 2015)

*Declaration of interest! * I’m Guy Michelmore, I run Thinkspace and like most of you am a hard working, mildly stressed-out, composer as well.

HZ is absolutely right that getting a job as an assistant is an excellent way in. And he’s right about the enormous value of learning to music-edit. But….there aren’t many assitant jobs and if you are over 25 or live outside one of the major scoring centres like LA or London, it’s less likely to be an option. Also, like many composers, I have over the years recruited most of my assistants directly from Master’s programmes rather than advertise and be overwhelmed with applicants.

Screen-sense (©HZ 2015) – great phrase - _which I take to mean that intuitive understanding of the relationship between the music and the picture, built up scoring thousands of hours of film and television. Actually the greatest challenge I found when I started teaching new composers was trying to work out what I was doing instinctively, slow it down and unpack it so I could explain it to someone else. The greatest reward now is passing some of those insights on and seeing it take root, accelerated-wisdom!_ (©GM 2015).

So why do a Master’s?

Aside from the factual information, intellectual development and upskilling, two main reasons: Mentoring and Compressed Experience. 

Getting structured feedback from experienced composers on your work is a great way to learn. Just make sure your instructor's recent experience and credits inspires you to learn from them.

By compressed experience I mean scoring a lot of radically different projects in a short space of time. 12 months on an MA you can cover as much ground as 5 years or more in the real-world. Our full-time MA students are writing something pretty much every week. Make sure your course offers lots of opportunity to score different projects. 

A weakness of some programmes is that they focus purely on orchestral film music. That’s fine, but only a tiny proportion of the composers earn a living doing that. Games, TV, documentary, commercials, trailers, library, animation - I could go on, but I think we owe it to our students to show them the enormous and growing variety of other opportunities to earn a living doing what they love.

So do you need a master’s to write great media music? Obviously not. There are lots of way’s of getting where you want to go. In a crowded market though a Master’s degree is a good option for a growing number of composers. Just be clear what your objective is before you start.

Good luck!


----------



## TimJohnson (Jan 21, 2015)

nikolas @ Tue Jan 20 said:


> Tim thanks for you reply. My point in asking is that if you're going to spend some time replying to someone privately, you might as well do so in public and thus the whole community will gain from your reply.
> 
> Your recent (last) post is very well thought and made.
> 
> And I will repeat that I don't do film music and semi-occasionally computer game music, so I'm not the best guy to ask about this whole issue in the first place! :D So... there... (but I am officially educated in music! :D )



No problem. The only reason I did not post my full reply to Ariel was simply because it was an in depth description of the ThinkSpace Education MA courses which wouldn't have been appropriate here as the question was about how much formal education is recommended, rather than what our courses involve!

I am happy to discuss what is in our courses with anyone that is interested in them - but a forum isn't the right place for that!

It's this word "Formal" that I find interesting and it wasn't something I really considered in my own *personal* trajectory (much).

My only real thought process was: How do I learn what I need to learn? Where do I go, or what do I do to achieve that?

The certificate at the end was a nice bi-product of that thought process and I think that is what any one in the creative sphere should keep in mind.

That said, the certificate certainly helps for those wishing to branch into _education_... which many musicians do.


----------

