# If you were to recommend just one course...



## Studio E (Jan 13, 2022)

For those that don't know me at all or what I've done (I assume most), I've been a part-time composer for a couple decades, getting small gigs here and there, while also working my day job full-time. 

This year is the year of all years, with one feature nearly complete, a short film coming right up, and two more features scheduled. I am a non/self trained composer. I have faked my way through some orchestral stuff, and really pleased my clients, but it's very much not my strong suit, and I have really leaned into minimalism the past several years. It's probably been years since my last fully orchestral project. Well that is now about to change.

One of the two features I am about to embark on, is going to be a fully orchestral score, with potentially a LOT of music. I don't need more libraries. I have WAY too many at the moment. What I could use, is a good primer course to help me along my way. I'm not really sure what that would be right now, but I was thinking of picking up ThinkSpace's Composer Blueprints. the thing is, I love Alain's courses, and I WILL get back to them someday, but for now, I could really use some CliffsNotes on orchestral film music. I don't have time to dedicate to heavy coursework now or once this gets rolling. I'm looking for some info which I can digest on lunchbreaks and downtime at my day job. There is no doubt in my mind that I can come up with the score for this film, but I also know that I have huge holes in my knowledge of how to best approach and execute it. I have a decent "feel" for orchestration, but basically zero actual knowledge.

If you could recommend only one course to take before setting off on such an adventure, what would it be?

Thanks!


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jan 13, 2022)

Orchestration Recipes are as close to Cliff Notes of different “styles” as you can get. I did the Thinkspace one and didn’t think it was all that helpful. Cinematic Composing has a similar one that I think is better.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Jan 13, 2022)

Hey Eric, this is super exciting! Great choice to really get deeper into orchestration and improve your chops. As @ALittleNightMusic mentioned, Orchestration Recipes is really popular for a 'Cliff Notes' sort of approach. Thinkspace and Evenant's material is also regularly mentioned. I also have my own course (Cinematic Music Creation) detailing the process of composing, producing, orchestrating, mixing, and mastering your own orchestral piece from start to finish, in case you might be interested.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Jan 13, 2022)

Alternative:

Buy this software for the ipad and spend a couple months working on counterpoint daily. 






Counterpointer: Software for the study of counterpoint


Songworks is a flexible music notation program for Macintosh and Windows computers.



www.ars-nova.com





Rules can be set from strict Palestrina to Fux to Bach on the desktop version. Counterpoint really informs orchestration decision making, and trains the brain to think horizontally.

Then, buy the Spectratone chart, and follow the color scheme of “perfect” and “close” combinations. That will keep the balance intact when assigning different parts to specific instruments.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 13, 2022)

I am kind of your evil clone….we are similar in many ways. I was in the same boat a few years ago and invested in formal classical piano lessons. It was a wise investment! I can now actually “play” piano, sight read, and have a firmer grasp on theory. As a result, my orchestrations have matured and sound much more realistic because I have a better understanding of chords, scales, harmony and counterpoint. If you don’t know the basics of this stuff, studying orchestration will be constant struggle. 

Since Covid hit, I joined a site called Flow Key, and I continue learning classical pieces through their online platform.


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## José Herring (Jan 13, 2022)

Studio E said:


> For those that don't know me at all or what I've done (I assume most), I've been a part-time composer for a couple decades, getting small gigs here and there, while also working my day job full-time.
> 
> This year is the year of all years, with one feature nearly complete, a short film coming right up, and two more features scheduled. I am a non/self trained composer. I have faked my way through some orchestral stuff, and really pleased my clients, but it's very much not my strong suit, and I have really leaned into minimalism the past several years. It's probably been years since my last fully orchestral project. Well that is now about to change.
> 
> ...


Since you are sitting in front of a piano I assume that you're a fairly skilled keyboard player and musician. I never understood why people think that the orchestra is some sort wild beast vastly different than what they already know. It isn't.

I lived my early life as a professional orchestrator never having studied anything about orchestration or music composition formally. What I did know was my instrument, a little music theory and some familiarity with how instruments worked. Truth be told, when I started orchestrating professionally I didn't even really know the ranges of the instruments. I just knew that, oh, this line will work well with the cellos, this with horns, ect... I just did it by ear. I did take one orchestration class in school and got laughed at because I didn't know the range of the cellos. Which apparently to all the composition major is basic knowledge but funnily I was recognized as the best orchestrator in the class when pencil actually hit paper and people had to listen to all our projects performed by the school orchestra. I may have not known the ranges but I knew by ear what each instrument was capable of doing. So in this class I got nothing out of it. Didn't understand the books by Piston who as far as I could tell couldn't write any decent music, got laughed at treated like I was stupid But when it came time to actually do something, I smoked them all. Not because I was great because they just couldn't do anything with their "knowledge".


To understand everything that an orchestra can do isn't a crash course. If you want to get started quickly, start by understanding how your instrument, piano, can translate to an orchestra. I mean most of the great composers in history were keyboard players. Lately so many people study the orchestration of Howard Shore especially after Lord of the Rings but in truth his orchestral writing is really basic. He was a jazz/rock/pop keyboard player and he learned how to get those voicings, into the orchestra much like 80's John Berry ala Out of Africa and Dances with Wolves.

So take what you know and try and figure out how that relates to orchestra. Listen to recordings of your favorite orchestral pieces and try and understand then from your perspective.

Don't worry so much about the formal training. Being one that is classically trained I've had to spend most of my life trying to get away from it. There is some merit to it. As Stephen mentioned it gets you to think more horizontally. But, the rules suck really. They don't apply. As a matter of fact all the rules of Fux counterpoint were only intended for use in liturgical music as a way to keep those devil intervals out of worship of God and to separate out the organum of the middle ages from the new enlightment era that was based on the Greek revival. We don't really need that crap these days. The world these days is probably more closely aligned with the aethetics and mores of the middle ages but with weapons of mass destruction....but I digress....Point being, to think that the refinement of the enlightenment age pertains at all to anything we do commercially these days is kind of foolish. You'll get more agreement from beating a drum and holding whole notes with a melody on top than writing a fugue in 4 parts which is what all counterpoint is intended to lead you to as it was consider the apex of composition in the days the rules were created.


So if you do Jazz keyboard, you know how to voice chords, how to progress. You know voice leading and harmony and how to do line writing and how to do block chords. Use what you know and figure out how it can apply to the orchestral groups. Then work out how to apply with groups in combination. At that point you'll be up to trying to tackle orchestration books like Rimsky Korsakov to learn some more advanced techniques which if you're doing samples is hardly worth knowing as they don't translate well to samples in the least bit. Sometimes I get closer to actual Rimsky-Korsakov style voicings by using generic all brass or all woodwinds patches than carefully balancing individual patches into a interlocking voice structure. All that sophistication just gets lost many times using samples. But have great effect when doing real orchestration.

But like Stephen said there is some merit to studying counterpoint just don't take it too far. After the first few Fux lessons you'll pretty much get the jist of it. That being how to think of writing lines that go together but that are independent melody lines on their own. I find that a pretty good way to think but it's also dangerous because you lose a lot of power if you take it too far. You can also learn a bit about voice leading by learning choral style writing but that's been pretty much superseded by just learning how to move from chord to chord efficiently like the great jazz keyboard players can do.


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## SupremeFist (Jan 13, 2022)

José Herring said:


> You can also learn a bit about voice leading by learning choral style writing but that's been pretty much superseded by just learning how to move from chord to chord efficiently like the great jazz keyboard players can do.


The really useful thing one can get from that kind of traditional practice, though (eg reharmonizing the top lines of Bach chorales), if one is coming from being primarily a piano player, is getting a feeling for spreading out one's chord voicings further than one would naturally play them on a keyboard, which does maybe help translate better to orchestration?


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## aeliron (Jan 13, 2022)

Studio E said:


> ..
> 
> One of the two features I am about to embark on, is going to be a fully orchestral score, with potentially a LOT of music. I don't need more libraries. I have WAY too many at the moment. What I could use, is a good primer course to help me along my way. I'm not really sure what that would be right now, but I was thinking of picking up ThinkSpace's Composer Blueprints. the thing is, I love Alain's courses, and I WILL get back to them someday, but for now, I could really use some CliffsNotes on orchestral film music. I don't have time to dedicate to heavy coursework now or once this gets rolling. I'm looking for some info which I can digest on lunchbreaks and downtime at my day job. There is no doubt in my mind that I can come up with the score for this film, but I also know that I have huge holes in my knowledge of how to best approach and execute it. I have a decent "feel" for orchestration, but basically zero actual knowledge.
> 
> ...


What do you think your "gaps" are? Not sure if these are too basic for you, but they have 21-day refund, if that helps: https://evenant.com/courses/


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## Studio E (Jan 13, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Orchestration Recipes are as close to Cliff Notes of different “styles” as you can get. I did the Thinkspace one and didn’t think it was all that helpful. Cinematic Composing has a similar one that I think is better.


This looks really practical and is much appreciated. I may very well pick one or both of these up, given the price. Thank you!


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## Studio E (Jan 13, 2022)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> Hey Eric, this is super exciting! Great choice to really get deeper into orchestration and improve your chops. As @ALittleNightMusic mentioned, Orchestration Recipes is really popular for a 'Cliff Notes' sort of approach. Thinkspace and Evenant's material is also regularly mentioned. I also have my own course (Cinematic Music Creation) detailing the process of composing, producing, orchestrating, mixing, and mastering your own orchestral piece from start to finish, in case you might be interested.


Chris, I really like what I have seen of your videos on YouTube and in fact, just recently watched one you had on orchestration. I'm definitely checking out your courses, thank you!


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## Studio E (Jan 13, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> I am kind of your evil clone….we are similar in many ways. I was in the same boat a few years ago and invested in formal classical piano lessons. It was a wise investment! I can now actually “play” piano, sight read, and have a firmer grasp on theory. As a result, my orchestrations have matured and sound much more realistic because I have a better understanding of chords, scales, harmony and counterpoint. If you don’t know the basics of this stuff, studying orchestration will be constant struggle.
> 
> Since Covid hit, I joined a site called Flow Key, and I continue learning classical pieces through their online platform.


Jeremy, thanks. I have at one time, taken formal lessons, and would love to get back to it. Unfortunately, I just have zero time right now, but have been a piano player of sorts for about 40 years now.


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## Studio E (Jan 13, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Since you are sitting in front of a piano I assume that you're a fairly skilled keyboard player and musician. I never understood why people think that the orchestra is some sort wild beast vastly different than what they already know. It isn't.
> 
> I lived my early life as a professional orchestrator never having studied anything about orchestration or music composition formally. What I did know was my instrument, a little music theory and some familiarity with how instruments worked. Truth be told, when I started orchestrating professionally I didn't even really know the ranges of the instruments. I just knew that, oh, this line will work well with the cellos, this with horns, ect... I just did it by ear. I did take one orchestration class in school and got laughed at because I didn't know the range of the cellos. Which apparently to all the composition major is basic knowledge but funnily I was recognized as the best orchestrator in the class when pencil actually hit paper and people had to listen to all our projects performed by the school orchestra. I may have not known the ranges but I knew by ear what each instrument was capable of doing. So in this class I got nothing out of it. Didn't understand the books by Piston who as far as I could tell couldn't write any decent music, got laughed at treated like I was stupid But when it came time to actually do something, I smoked them all. Not because I was great because they just couldn't do anything with their "knowledge".
> 
> ...


Jose, thanks for the detailed response. It's always inspiring to meet people who are able to figure this stuff out on an instinctual level. I have at times, made some orchestral stuff that really impressed myself and my clients, but it always feels like a stab in the dark. Aside from my complete lack of counterpoint and orchestration training, I also just feel as though I lack ideas for creating good rhythmic movement and such among orchestral sections. Then again, I have put forth some effort and just really tried hard to make things work, and managed to come up with some good stuff, or so I've been told.

I think that mainly, although I seriously could use some further education, me reaching out like this and choosing a course or two, is my way of making myself feel like I am doing all I can to prepare for this project. I do know basic theory/harmony, and do understand the fact that jazz extensions exist, lol, but don't use them a whole lot. I have gotten way better at creating mroe complex harmony, but it's mainly been by lots of trial and error. I get the very basics of voice leading but haven't practiced much. 
I'll probably, because of time restrictions, just try something of a course for now, something easily digestible, and then get on with it, because for now, I just don't have much of a choice. The film is a period documentary, so I imagine a lot of constant rhythmic, textural time-filler. I also have some decent idea-starting libraries, like Emotive and Action Strings 2. I hate to rely on such things, but I'm not above it at all, especially if it just sends me down a path to start a journey.

Again, thanks so much. In case anyone wants to see/hear it, here's a brief example of some of what I've done orchestral-wise in the past which seemed to be liked by my clients and others. I'd like to think I can do better now.....maybe, hahaha, but certainly on the mix/production side of things.


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## Studio E (Jan 13, 2022)

aeliron said:


> What do you think your "gaps" are? Not sure if these are too basic for you, but they have 21-day refund, if that helps: https://evenant.com/courses/


Probably orchestration overall, as well as just overall form, but then again, who knows, right? I mean, it's hard to quantify what I actually don't know, but hopefully just taking a course or two can help me realize where I fall short for the most part.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Jan 13, 2022)

Studio E said:


> Chris, I really like what I have seen of your videos on YouTube and in fact, just recently watched one you had on orchestration. I'm definitely checking out your courses, thank you!


You're so welcome! Let me know if you have any questions.


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## proxima (Jan 13, 2022)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Alternative:
> 
> Buy this software for the ipad and spend a couple months working on counterpoint daily.
> 
> ...


Minor note: This isn't an ipad app, it's a Mac OS X and Windows app. But interesting suggestion!


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Jan 13, 2022)

It's an ipad app too under the name "Musica Touch." 🤠 Same software just for OS and iOS (and Windows).









‎Musica Touch


‎Musica Touch offers music education (ear training, music theory/note reading, counterpoint) and composition tools (play a tune on the screen piano and see it notated, write a lead sheet, prepare a chorale or quartet), let the app invent a musical idea). Each of the 45 activities is sold...



apps.apple.com


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## RSK (Jan 13, 2022)

Lots of good feedback here. I'd +1 the Orchestration Recipes material; it's been much better than I thought it would. "Cliff Notes" is a good way of describing it.

If you do decide to get something from Thinkspace, I'd recommend against the Blueprints course unless you see yourself needing to learn composing for a lot of different styles (drama, comedy, action, etc.) A better choice would be Cinematic Orchestration, which covers the foundational topics (writing for woodwinds, writing for brass, etc.)


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## blaggins (Jan 13, 2022)

Studio E said:


> For those that don't know me at all or what I've done (I assume most), I've been a part-time composer for a couple decades, getting small gigs here and there, while also working my day job full-time.


This is off-topic but this bit above is pretty inspirational. I am impressed that you are able to get scoring jobs part-time. My (completely newbie and uninitiated) impression of the field "looking in" at scoring-as-a-career, as a complete outsider myself doing a totally different day job, is that it's pretty hard to get composing work even if you are utterly dedicated to making it happen as your career, and are young and wiling to work at it doing 70 hour weeks. At least that is the gist I am picking up on.

@Studio E I'd love to get your perspective on how you made things work, expanding into scoring starting part time, if you are willing to share of course.


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## PaulieDC (Jan 13, 2022)

Lot of good suggestions on here but you did ask for Cliff Notes:

Quick and well-packed:





Sampled Orchestration In A Weekend | ThinkSpace Education


Whether you are working in Logic, Cubase or any other DAW, this course will unlock the techniques used by top working composers and song-writers.




thinkspaceeducation.com





More extensive and instrument intensive:





Cinematic Orchestration | ThinkSpace Education


Learn how to orchestrate for film, television or games using either samples or live players, taught by top Hollywood composers and orchestrators.




thinkspaceeducation.com





If either doesn't scratch your itch, Guy offers a 30-day refund. 

I do own both, not being a Google troll, lol.


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## PaulieDC (Jan 13, 2022)

Oh, @ChrisSiuMusic 's 30-min video on writing and arranging strings is quite good, tons of things that you don't get in more commercial fast-paced "you can be John Williams" courses.


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## José Herring (Jan 14, 2022)

Studio E said:


> Jose, thanks for the detailed response. It's always inspiring to meet people who are able to figure this stuff out on an instinctual level. I have at times, made some orchestral stuff that really impressed myself and my clients, but it always feels like a stab in the dark. Aside from my complete lack of counterpoint and orchestration training, I also just feel as though I lack ideas for creating good rhythmic movement and such among orchestral sections. Then again, I have put forth some effort and just really tried hard to make things work, and managed to come up with some good stuff, or so I've been told.
> 
> I think that mainly, although I seriously could use some further education, me reaching out like this and choosing a course or two, is my way of making myself feel like I am doing all I can to prepare for this project. I do know basic theory/harmony, and do understand the fact that jazz extensions exist, lol, but don't use them a whole lot. I have gotten way better at creating mroe complex harmony, but it's mainly been by lots of trial and error. I get the very basics of voice leading but haven't practiced much.
> I'll probably, because of time restrictions, just try something of a course for now, something easily digestible, and then get on with it, because for now, I just don't have much of a choice. The film is a period documentary, so I imagine a lot of constant rhythmic, textural time-filler. I also have some decent idea-starting libraries, like Emotive and Action Strings 2. I hate to rely on such things, but I'm not above it at all, especially if it just sends me down a path to start a journey.
> ...



Further education is what we all need. It's how and what you educate yourself towards. Rather than look elsewhere for "education" from youtube find out what makes you "you" and find how to make that better technically. 

I can tell from your example above that you have a basic knowledge of what you're doing. There's nothing wrong with the music or your scoring instincts. The only thing "wrong" is lacking some ability to know how to get the most out of your ideas orchestration wise. The horn line is too high, best to drop them down an octave and double up with trumpets and flutes an octave above. You've made the newbie mistake of relying too much on the harp, but yet not knowing how the real harp works so you kind of plucked it out on the keyboard and hoped for the best. 

Honestly I don't say these things without full knowledge that I've made the very same basic blunders when scoring repeatedly. 

So, to learn a bit I'd start by learning what registers are the most resonant for what instruments. Learn how to double at intervals a lead line to get a fuller more harmonic sound, ect.... Lots of these things are covered in the Rimsky-Korsakov book but they can also be plucked out by ear on the piano and translated to orchestra. Like, the composition itself is good enough, but filling out with more parts, not relying on the harp for the wrong purpose, ect... Learning what each instrument is good at and in what ranges will set up you for stretching the limits. 

John Powell said a good thing which is he doesn't listen to film music. Problem being that if you rely on film scores to learn to orchestra, you'll be relying on watered down versions of watered down versions of classical pieces. So best to just go to the source. 

Listen to Lark Ascending and see how he uses the orchestra. Listening to that for 20 minutes will give you more of an insight into writing fantasy music than listening to 1000 hours of Lord of the Ring type scores, ect... Listening to pieces by Ravel will give you more of an idea of what each instrument is capable of.... 

The best composers didn't write books or start youtube channels, the best composers left us their legacy in the materials they wrote. Deep dive into that and hear it from the way you hear music. If you can read listen to pieces while watching the notes. If not then play along with the piano and figure it out. 

I swear you'll learn a lot more doing the above than pouring over dead counterpoint manuals. Even though pouring over dead counterpoint manuals is kind of fun as a past time. 

There is one book though. Beethoven's teacher wrote a book on harmony. Johann Albrectsburger. Study his book was the first time I was able to write music without aid of keyboard. It's amazing on teaching what got watered down into "functional Harmony" but it's way better than that because it was based on a simplification and understanding of figured bass. Well worth the read. It's two books, first book is kick ass beethoven Haydenesque harmony the second is a long diatribe on fux counterpoint. But Albrechtsberger was kind of the hippy of his time so he makes a clear distinction that the rules of counterpoint only really applied to church music and that the good stuff was in the first book where he gets into chords, chord extensions and where they came from and what they mean, modulations, chord charts for drilling, voicing and voice leading. Amazing book really. It's a rock solid foundation on harmony. 

I've had enough of the soapbox though. Thank you for indulging me. I use topics like this to clarify my own thoughts and hopefully get back to getting better at music rather than constantly tweaking my template and learning how to mix better.


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## José Herring (Jan 14, 2022)

Oh, one tip on Albrechtsberger's book. Play it while reading, don't just read like a school boy. Stuff that's way complicated is actually really simple if you're looking at your fingers on a keyboard instead of just notes and words in a book.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Jan 14, 2022)

PaulieDC said:


> Oh, @ChrisSiuMusic 's 30-min video on writing and arranging strings is quite good, tons of things that you don't get in more commercial fast-paced "you can be John Williams" courses.



Haha thank you so much!


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## gamma-ut (Jan 14, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Beethoven's teacher wrote a book on harmony. Johann Albrectsburger.


An old translation of the Albrechtsberger is available on IMSLP (as well as German versions):






Gründliche Anweisung zur Composition (Albrechtsberger, Johann Georg) - IMSLP: Free Sheet Music PDF Download







imslp.org


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## blaggins (Jan 14, 2022)

The best looking English scan of _Thorough-Bass, Harmony, and Composition _I've found on IMSLP is this one: https://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ImagefromIndex/236643/hfin

Thanks @José Herring for bringing this book to our attention. I'd never heard of it but it certainly *sounds* like something I've been looking for.


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## patrick76 (Jan 14, 2022)

José Herring said:


> The best composers didn't write books


Except Shoenberg, Copland, Rimsky-Korsakov.. but generally right.


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## waveheavy (Jan 14, 2022)

Probably this one at the link below, which covers a lot of subjects in one shot. I went through it and I have a Specialist Certificate from Berklee, Boston. It follows what Berklee teaches on orchestration pretty closely. Arn Andersson covers the basics too though, from creating melody, motif, sketching for composition, then how to orchestrate it and mix it. A pretty full course if its followed closely.









Evenant - Cinematic Music Course Review (Updated!) - EPICOMPOSER


Review of Evenant's updated online course Cinematic Music - From Idea To Finished Recording.




epicomposer.com





(I am not associated with Arn, nor Evenant.)


ScoreClub would be my next choice, which is a deeper level on the same type subjects, divided into individual courses. More detail, but well taught.

I've done the ThinkSpace route too, nothing against it, but I'm a guitarist, I don't play piano, and most of what he does is using the keyboard.


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