# The end of the American Civil War



## NYC Composer (Jun 24, 2015)

When Lindsey Graham advocates the takedown of the Confederate flag from the state capitol, when Obama and Mitch McConnell are joining forces to pass legislation, one has to wonder what the heck is happening in this country.

Apparently, murder and corporate welfare are great unifiers.


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## Daryl (Jun 24, 2015)

Larry, for us foreigners, I'd be grateful if you could give a rough precis of what the issues are.

D


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## chimuelo (Jun 24, 2015)

Hes referring to the Confederate flag being removed from public office finally.
It was offensive but most blacks didnt allow it to bother them.
But when it becomes associated with Nazi or Apartheide flags it no longer is a historical artifact but a very offensive symbol.
I work with 2 brothas I grew up with and they explain it to me that way.
For example Biker Clubs always like it as it symbolizes disrespect for Federal Law.
We play such events and my bros are cool with that.
But it really chaps thier ass when guys with SS tats and Rebel flag tats are worn proudly.
That symbolizes hatred since thats what inmates do.

The recent killings made millions sad as it seemed that Sharpton and the White House riot squads were sparking a new era of hatred.
But Liberal leaders were asked to stay away from the area as the community didnt want DOJ protest professionals bringing crime to thier town.
Worked out that it has united many shaky alliances.

White Trash father of the little punk needs some sense beat into him though.

Moral of the story is we finally see leaders in DC allowing people to unite rather than send Liberal riot squads in to leave another neighborhood in flames.
This is what I call progress.


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## Daryl (Jun 24, 2015)

Thanks. I understood why people wanted it removed, but not why some didn't. Having said that, we have flags and marches that are deliberately offensive, and they are allowed to happen, due to free speech and all that, but pretty much nobody cares. I just wondered why it was suddenly an issue now when as far as I can see the free speech arguments are still the same as ever.

D


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## sleepy hollow (Jun 24, 2015)

Daryl @ Wed 24 Jun said:


> ...we have flags and marches that are deliberately offensive, and they are allowed to happen...


Hm, I'm wondering what those are... The St. George's flag comes to mind - is that one considered offensive?


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## Daryl (Jun 24, 2015)

sleepy hollow @ Wed Jun 24 said:


> Daryl @ Wed 24 Jun said:
> 
> 
> > ...we have flags and marches that are deliberately offensive, and they are allowed to happen...
> ...


I'm thinking primarily of the Orange Order marches, that many of the Catholic faith find offensive.

D


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## chimuelo (Jun 24, 2015)

Free speech is great. I prefer it over the current unoffensive doctrine causing alarming drop out rates in our Union day care centers (schools)
People are going to disagree but trying to silence them with political correctness is a failed concept.
Proof is seen in our little darlings going into the real world after getting a degree in Liberal Arts or gender awareness or African studies....etc.
They are unemployable unless they want to become a Liberal Professor and teach others how to fail.
So when they are reminded of how useless they are they (like those they worship) become offended and now victims requiring further representation from other people profitting off of victims......

I have a little town 20 miles away that looks just like town square in the movie back to the future.
A statue of a Confederate General is there.
Before wealthy white Liberals ship in professional riot squads a township meeting will be held on the topic of removing the dead old white guy.
Should be interesting since the police chief sheriff and many board members are black.....
Lots of these old towns want to be reminded of how far the country has come. Others dont.


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## Michael K. Bain (Jun 24, 2015)

Daryl @ Wed Jun 24 said:


> Thanks. I understood why people wanted it removed, but not why some didn't. Having said that, we have flags and marches that are deliberately offensive, and they are allowed to happen, due to free speech and all that, but pretty much nobody cares. I just wondered why it was suddenly an issue now when as far as I can see the free speech arguments are still the same as ever.
> 
> D



Some historical buffs appreciate the flag as an integral part of Civil War history. And that's fine with me.I don't have a problem with people owning one. In my younger years, I was a civil war buff and I own a confederate flag for the historical significance of it. But don't display it, and i certainly don't fly it.

I see no reason for public display or flying of a Confederate flag, unless in a museum.

Generally speaking, I am opposed to setting laws based on political correctness, but I can certainly understand being offended b the Confederate flag in the context in which Chim framed it (in use by KKK and other hate groups)


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## Michael K. Bain (Jun 24, 2015)

chimuelo @ Wed Jun 24 said:


> I have a little town 20 miles away that looks just like town square in the movie back to the future.
> A statue of a Confederate General is there.
> Before wealthy white Liberals ship in professional riot squads a township meeting will be held on the topic of removing the dead old white guy.
> Should be interesting since the police chief sheriff and many board members are black.....
> Lots of these old towns want to be reminded of how far the country has come. Others dont.



Which general was it? _By intentions_, many confederates fought in defense of their state, not in support of slavery. Though I do realize that _in effect_, they were actually fighting in defense of slavery as well


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## NYC Composer (Jun 24, 2015)

Daryl, from a free speech standpoint, individual citizens can fly whatever flags they like. The issue comes when a state government is flying a flag that is culturally insensitive to a large portion of its population. 

I'm not a scholar of the Confederacy, but the reason I most often hear for keeping the Confederate battle flag is that it is a reminder of an important part of history and that it's also a reminder of the periodic need for rebellion against a tyrannical central government. It's always been known that it's also a symbol of a time when African Americans were enslaved, and even after emancipation, tyrannized and marginalized.

The grace and sorrow of the African American community in Charleston after the tragic murder of nine people by an avowed white supremacist who "wanted to start a race war" seem to have most legislators scurrying to be on the right side of history and removing this symbol of times long since past. Its interesting how one event, however horrific, can bring in a sea change of-what? The softening of hearts? Political expediency? Hard to know.

Just FYI, the second part of my statement had to do with Republican senator McConnell and President Obama working together to pass the Trans-Pacific trade bill. Strange bedfellows, especially these days. As to the bill, I have little idea what's in it- heaven help us all.


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## KEnK (Jun 24, 2015)

Daryl @ Wed Jun 24 said:


> Thanks. I understood why people wanted it removed, but not why some didn't. Having said that, we have flags and marches that are deliberately offensive, and they are allowed to happen, due to free speech and all that, but pretty much nobody cares. I just wondered why it was suddenly an issue now when as far as I can see the free speech arguments are still the same as ever.
> 
> D


As others have said, we also have those marches and rallies (KKK, Nazis, etc)
Most often, more people object to those rallies than participate in them.

But in this case, the Confederate Flag is flying above the State Capitol Building 
in Charleston, South Carolina. 
It was actually placed there in the 60's as a response 
to the the Civil Rights Legislation that was passed at the time.

So it is a State Sanctioned Symbol of Slavery, White Supremacy and all that nice stuff.
It is a symbol of Oppression, not some Grand Former Heritage.

And in this case- it's about enough people coming around to the view-
that freedom of individual speech, is different from State "speech".
And the State, both in the case of S. Carolina and a recent Texas ruling about 
The Confederate Flag no longer being allowed on license plates,
has no business Flying a Symbol, that clearly to most, is a symbol of Slavery

k

(note- started typing, got side tracked, then finished my post
before I saw Larry's. Excuse the repetition.)


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## Daryl (Jun 24, 2015)

Thanks for the explanations, guys.

D


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## Soundhound (Jun 24, 2015)

The Confederate Flag is a terrorist symbol. It is a flag of the deep and enduring history of racism, hatred and murder in this country. It was put up in South Carolina capital in reaction to the swell the of civil rights movement in 1961. Taking it down seems like a good idea.


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## JonFairhurst (Jun 24, 2015)

The tipping point came when the US and South Carolina flags were lowered to half staff, while the Confederate battle flag flew high, had no rope with which to lower it, and not even the governor had the authority to remove it. In the face of tragedy, few could deny the belligerence.

People claim "southern pride", but never seem to define it. Some claim that it honors the veterans. Some deny it has anything to do with hatred, slavery, or treason. Like most messed-up things, it comes down to people with an emotional attachment coming up with justifications.

But one can't deny that the flag was used by the opponents to civil rights. It was waved by the murderer. It's even flown by some Nazi groups as a substitute for Hitler's flag in countries where the swastika is banned.

Personally, I'm thrilled to see it being removed from public spaces.

Private speech is another thing. Here is a statue of the founder of the KKK visible from the freeway in Nashville. And, yes, it's surrounded by Confederate flags.

https://c3.staticflickr.com/3/2306/2449 ... a3ef_b.jpg

We even have private parcel with a CF visible from Interstate-5 here in Washington State. The group claims to have benign goals, but one has to ask why we'd celebrate southern pride in the Pacific Northwest. And why assert it so forcefully? We don't tend to see such private monuments to the losers of other wars. This is clearly different.

Oh well, the people who can afford freeway-frontage property and big belt buckles can keep flying their flags. It helps us to know who the jerks are. Thank goodness the states will stop sponsoring their message.


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## chimuelo (Jun 28, 2015)

Can't remember the Generals name but next time I go to the Produce/Farmers market I'll check it out.
Was just there yesterday getting fresh peaches, tomatoes, and incredible large white sweet corn.
What's odd about this area is that the largest hippie commune on Earth was started here in the late 60s, even went to the founders Funeral/wake/party as he is a big influence on Country Western artists, rockers, Bluegrass music, farmers and historians.
Left California with his cult from Bay Area and LA, started a commune and their offspring is HUGE in Tennessee/KY. Hard to imagine how oppressive and Soviet-ish California was compared to the South back then.
Even more strange is we have Indian farmers, Black farmers, Hindu and Muslim farmers, white redneck farmers, Omish farmers.
It's actually the most diverse area in religions and cultures I have ever lived in.
Everybody owns a gun, you can win one for an attendance prize at most Churches.
Crime is only heard about on Channel 6 news.
Everything we hear about and see in the media "news" just isn't the real picture.
People around here are boring and productive, no news there.

The Omish have the very finest organic food and refuse to sell to Whole Foods or Kroger.
Check out these 'Mater's below....Whoah they have smell and taste like none in these
one size fits all grocery stores for WalMart shoppers....

Best thing about the area is musicians are everywhere, people are in general very satisfied, even if they are considered to be in "poverty."
Guess I'm fortunate to be around happy victims of the oppressive American Regime...


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## chimuelo (Jun 28, 2015)

Oh and the flag. Take them all down.
It was a terrible week for Charleston and it's citizens, but they made me proud by acting the way they did.
Aside from that what a great week to be American again.
Been a long time since I was proud.


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## chimuelo (Jun 28, 2015)

And I thought this place was closed until the 29th.....??
It's what the 404 link said..


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## patrick76 (Jun 28, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> Just FYI, the second part of my statement had to do with Republican senator McConnell and President Obama working together to pass the Trans-Pacific trade bill. Strange bedfellows, especially these days. As to the bill, I have little idea what's in it- heaven help us all.



What a beautiful, sublime thing when politicians can set aside their petty differences and unite in what matters most to them.......

Some of the secret TPP document was published on wikileaks. You can read a little about it here also


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## sleepy hollow (Jun 28, 2015)

chimuelo said:


> Can't remember the Generals name but next time I go to the Produce/Farmers market I'll check it out.


General Nathan Bedford Forrest. As seen in the Forrest Gump movie.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 29, 2015)

The Confederate flag is offensive to a lot of people, so you have to be an AH to want to fly it.

But it's a side show. The real issue is getting rid of the f-ing guns. This happens over and over and over, and these stupid, stupid morons insist on quoting bumper stickers and freedom and 2nd Amendment theology as if there's no problem whatsoever and we should just keep going on the way we have been.

People are worn down trying to argue with the most vile dipshits in the history of man, so they fight over racist flags instead.


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## gbar (Jun 29, 2015)

Michael K. Bain said:


> Which general was it? _By intentions_, many confederates fought in defense of their state, not in support of slavery. Though I do realize that _in effect_, they were actually fighting in defense of slavery as well



About 420,000 or so fought with the Union Army or in Union volunteer infantry.

Southerners helped Sherman burn a path to the sea because so many detested the Confederacy.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 30, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> The Confederate flag is offensive to a lot of people, so you have to be an AH to want to fly it.
> 
> But it's a side show. The real issue is getting rid of the f-ing guns. This happens over and over and over, and these stupid, stupid morons insist on quoting bumper stickers and freedom and 2nd Amendment theology as if there's no problem whatsoever and we should just keep going on the way we have been.
> 
> People are worn down trying to argue with the most vile dipshits in the history of man, so they fight over racist flags instead.



I think you might be underestimating the loathing African Americans have for the symbology that flag holds for them. I find it repellent even though my forebears weren't terrorized by it.

That said, I hope Obama sets his sights on reasonable gun control next. By a wide margin, the country is in favor of it. At this point I just send money to the Brady Center.


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## chimuelo (Jun 30, 2015)

Larry more symbolistic Liberal "Laws" are useless.
When California banned Assault weapons it simply raised the price of them.
At best it might create another useless Federal Agency.
When people want illegal drugs they simply go the nearest street corner of a great society neighborhood and purchase them. These drugs are also "controlled" by vast expensive agencies that cannot do anything other than help raise the popularity and price of said contraband.
But if "feel good" laws are what makes folks happy. I am quite sure such announcements from a podium will cause the Sheep to clack their hooves in approval.
Maybe have the Feds outsource enforcement to the same Corporate squads or CIA Jackals we use around the world might send the proper message.


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## chimuelo (Jun 30, 2015)

Just saw the news for Greece.
Seems the Corporate Goon Squads and Jackals will be busy over there.


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## gbar (Jun 30, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> I think you might be underestimating the loathing African Americans have for the symbology that flag holds for them. I find it repellent even though my forebears weren't terrorized by it.



The Klan is having a rally in Charleston to "support their heritage and the Confederate battle flag" because, you know, it's not racist <wink, wink>

The KKK staged rallies here when our city renamed Nathan Bedford Forest park (Memphis) to Health Science Park and removed a giant statue dedicated to the first Grand Wizard.

The city got in a hurry and did this finally in 2013 because the State legislators were in the process of passing a law that all memorials and parks dedicated to the "war between the states" required a 2/3rds vote from the state legislature to be removed or renamed, etc.

What happened, is these guys got together at ALEC and crafted legislation and sprang it on all the Southern states between 2011 and 2013 to make it difficult to remove racist symbols from public places.

We live with a lot of convenient "nice lies" here in the South. If you want to call somebody an idiot, you say "Bless your heart", for example.

So... "Our Southern Heritage" sounds a lot better than "white supremacy". See how it works? Now, to be fair, the point of the nice lies is that ordinary Southerners who are not affected by racism (white folks for the most part), can blithely ignore these overt racist symbols reminding a segment of the population "we're still here, and we still run things" and not worry about them because there is a nice description, bless their hearts.

And we have this mythos about the Civil War (is that an oxymoron--seems maybe there are lies we tell ourselves outside the South too) or as it is called by some "The War Between the States".

In my state, for example, one third of the state tried to secede from the state and join the Union when secession was passed. So Confederate militias descended on East Tennessee, they lynched some folks, intimidated others, a lot of refugees fled. Then for some reason I am not clear on, they began persecuting German-Americans, and they did this in North Texas too.

People here lived in fear of being labeled a "John Brown supporter" or "Unionist", etc. Being labelled like that was usually deadly, with no real trial, etc.

What had happened before the secession was the secessionists established networks of spies and informers throughout the South, they dominated the legislatures, and the average person had no say in the matter. And promises of not conscripting anybody ended as soon as secession began, except--of course--for wealthy slave holders who were exempted from conscription.

It was a pretty common thing generally for white folks in the US to be at least a little racist. But not all or even most were flaming white supremacists or slave holders, and that was the base that propelled the secessionists. And since they had networks of spies of informers, anybody disagreeing with them risked their life if they spoke up or refused conscription.

It was not a popular war in the South. It was controversial and divisive.

By 1864, nearly 2/3rds of the Army of Virginia, for example, was AWOL. Many joined volunteer union infantry, others fled north where many joined the Union Army to fight Confederate Tyranny.

More than 40,000 people from my state alone joined the regular Union Army. The 1st Alabama Calvary Division which lead Sherman's famous march to the sea was comprised mostly of folks from Tennessee, for example.

You won't hear much of that kind of history from folks who refer to this as "The War Between the States". I wonder why?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 30, 2015)

Great post, gbar.


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## rgames (Jun 30, 2015)

As has already been pointed out, the notion that the Confederate flag represents slavery to the majority (or even a significant percentage) of Southerners is a fabrication. It's just not true. Of course, that doesn't mean that it does *not* represent slavery to some, including blacks and white supremacists. But there's a huge percentage of people for whom it represents a heritage, one that includes some not-so-nice elements like slavery.

Consider this: how many of you think the American Flag represents oppression of the Japanese? After the attacks on Pearl Harbor, the US gathered up tens of thousands of Japanese Americans and placed them in the equivalent of concentration camps. Does the US Flag represent that oppression? Or how about oppression of Native Americans? The US has a long history of abusing the native people of the Americas. Does the US flag represent that abuse to you? Or how about gays? We just had a supreme court ruling that gave them a right previously limited by the states and previous supreme court rulings. Does the American Flag represent oppression of gays? Does the US flag represent the sum total of all of those oppressive acts?

To me, the answer to all of those questions is a resounding "No." Likewise, the Confederate flag is not just a symbol of slavery and oppression. There is an element of that in the history which it represents but it is not the totality or even the majority of that representation. You can certainly argue that slavery was a more severe form of oppression than any of the others I mentioned but you'll have to agree it's a difference of degree and not of kind.

The argument above shows that there is popular support for symbols (including flags) that at least partly represent behaviors that raise concern for most people. So the questions is this: what is the threshold at which it becomes so repulsive that the symbol needs to be removed? That's the hard part to answer. Clearly the Nazi flag was tightly tied to an oppressive and aggressive movement that stood for little else. So there's not much argument there. But the Confederate flag, like the US flag, has a more complicated history. Should it be removed from society just because some people find it offensive? I don't know. I find the Apple logo extremely offensive - to me it represents the pinnacle of corporate greed and unfair distribution of wealth, essentially modern-day slavery. For many people it stirs the same sort of religious devotion that the Confederate flag does. Alas. Move on.

Here's some more info: I grew up mostly in small-town Tennessee and Georgia but I'm not *from* the South, nor is anyone in my family, so I have no vested interest in its heritage and I can comment without worry of shading due to personal beliefs.

My High School was majority black and there were a lot of Confederate flags around. (For some perspective, it was just a few miles from Honey Boo-Boo's house.) At no point do I ever recall anyone in the community pointing to the Confederate flag as a symbol of racism or slavery. From elsewhere in the world, yes, but not locally. It just wasn't a big deal. Of course everyone knew that slavery was part of the history of the South that the Confederate flag represents but it was never presented as a symbol of *only* that element of Southern heritage. Just like the relationship between the US flag and Native Americans, or Japanese, or gays.

People adapt symbols to beliefs. They don't adapt beliefs to symbols. Early Christians were repulsed at the sight of a crucifix because it was a symbol of oppression and the death of Jesus. Now there are dozens of them in every Christian church and, indeed, it is *the* symbol of Christianity. The beliefs didn't change but the acceptance of the symbol did.

You can change the symbols but it will have no effect on the beliefs.

rgames


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## NYC Composer (Jun 30, 2015)

rgames said:


> As has already been pointed out, the notion that the Confederate flag represents slavery to the majority (or even a significant percentage) of Southerners is a fabrication. It's just not true. Of course, that doesn't mean that it does *not* represent slavery to some, including blacks and white supremacists. But there's a huge percentage of people for whom it represents a heritage, one that includes some not-so-nice elements like slavery.
> 
> Consider this: how many of you think the American Flag represents oppression of the Japanese? After the attacks on Pearl Harbor, the US gathered up tens of thousands of Japanese Americans and placed them in the equivalent of concentration camps. Does the US Flag represent that oppression? Or how about oppression of Native Americans? The US has a long history of abusing the native people of the Americas. Does the US flag represent that abuse to you? Or how about gays? We just had a supreme court ruling that gave them a right previously limited by the states and previous supreme court rulings. Does the American Flag represent oppression of gays? Does the US flag represent the sum total of all of those oppressive acts?
> 
> ...



You lost me at "black and white supremacists." You'll have to catch me up on black hate groups riding around the South in hoods, lynching white men, burning crosses on white owned lawns, etc.

Edit- I misread- you either said "blacks and white supremacists", or you changed it upon re-reading it

I'm Jewish by birth. I absolutely see the Swastika as a symbol of hate and racism. If I were black, I'd feel the exact same way about the Confederate flag, as it represents slavery and terror to many of them.

As a side note, the Apple vs PC wars ended a few years after the Civil War. Some people seem to
love re-enacting them, though. It's like a religious ritual.


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## rgames (Jun 30, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> You lost me at "black and white supremacists." You'll have to catch me up on black hate groups riding around the South in hoods, lynching white men, burning crosses on white owned lawns, etc.


Maybe I don't follow but my statement was that the Confederate flag is, in fact, a symbol of oppression to *some* blacks and white supremacists. But I can buy the argument that that oppression is not the entirety of the meaning of the Confederate flag, just as oppression of Native Americans is not the entirety of meaning of the American Flag. The Nazi flag is entirely different because oppression and aggression are almost the entirety of the meaning of that flag.

My comment on Apple has nothing to do with Mac vs PC wars. The point is that a symbol can hold entirely different meanings to different people. For most people, the Apple logo does *not* represent unfair wealth distribution and the associated oppression of a huge population of people (modern-day slavery). For me, it does, and justifiably so. There you go: same symbol, two equally valid reactions.

Do you look at the American flag and see a symbol of oppression of Native Americans?

Do you listen to Wagner and hear support for antisemitism?

If not, doesn't it make sense that Southerners can compartmentalize their response to the Confederate flag, supporting some things it represents and not supporting others?

If you can do it, can't they do the same?

rgames


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## gbar (Jun 30, 2015)

Etymology and evolution of the term "Scalawag"

Joseph E. Worcester's 1860 Dictionary of the English Language defined scalawag as "A low worthless fellow; a scapegrace." Scalawag was also a word for low-grade farm animals. In early 1868 a Mississippi editor observed that scalawag "has been used from time immemorial to designate inferior milch cows in the cattle markets of Virginia and Kentucky." That June the Richmond Enquirer concurred; scalawag had heretofore "applied to all of the mean, lean, mangy, hidebound skiny [sic], worthless cattle in every particular drove."

During the 1868–69 session of Judge "Greasy" Sam Watts court in Haywood County, North Carolina, Dr. William Closs, D.D. testified that a scalawag was "a Native born Southern white man who says he is no better than a negro and tells the truth when he says it."

During the 1870s, the term was used to describe all white Republicans in the South.

The fact that the term was applied first to persons who rejected white supremacy by other folks who considered themselves "fine Southern Gentlemen and their Ladies" is kind of evident in its early 1868-9 usage. After all, only low worthless folks could regard themselves as no better than a freedman, right?


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## NYC Composer (Jun 30, 2015)

rgames said:


> Maybe I don't follow but my statement was that the Confederate flag is, in fact, a symbol of oppression to *some* blacks and white supremacists. But I can buy the argument that that oppression is not the entirety of the meaning of the Confederate flag, just as oppression of Native Americans is not the entirety of meaning of the American Flag. The Nazi flag is entirely different because oppression and aggression are almost the entirety of the meaning of that flag.
> 
> My comment on Apple has nothing to do with Mac vs PC wars. The point is that a symbol can hold entirely different meanings to different people. For most people, the Apple logo does *not* represent unfair wealth distribution and the associated oppression of a huge population of people (modern-day slavery). For me, it does, and justifiably so. There you go: same symbol, two equally valid reactions.
> 
> ...



They can compartmentalize it in their basements, in the Neo-Nazi war room.

For that matter, this being America, they can proudly hang it on flagpoles on their properties, thereby celebrating their proud heritage. Just remove it from public property and it's all good.

If I was Native American, would I see the American Flag as a symbol of oppresion and terror towards my ancestors? Absolutely. 

When I listen to Wagner, do I think about Anti-Semitism? Yep. Admire the music, loathe the man. Same with Ezra Pound, H.L. Mencken, Heny Ford and countless others. 

As to the Apple logo, you've had a hardon for the Apple corporation as long as I've seen you post. You're dogmatic about it, yet I never hear a thing about Microsoft, Sony, Samsung, Toshiba, Texas Instruments, Dell- all of whom manufacture in China under the same (and probably worse) conditions- so let's not pretend this is anything but a crusade against Apple fanboys.


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## dach (Jun 30, 2015)

Racism is very alive and well here in my part of the south but unfortunately it is mostly the opposite of what you would expect or the media leads you to believe. There are a few misguided people/groups and even fewer deranged individuals that make the news but they are the exception to the rule.


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## chimuelo (Jun 30, 2015)

Media is doing what they're paid to do.
The pinnacle of power starts with Money/Resources.
Multinational Corporations and the Federal Reserves' Fractional Monetary policies maintain the status quo.
These corporations own media either through direct shares or advertising leverage.

As we speak General Electric and an Israeli citizen who purchases politicians are waging war on Donald Trump.
Playing right into his hand.
Hispanics are pretty upset, but many are just now finding out their favorite show is cancelled and the guy who has been pumping stories into their heads is an Israeli who purchases politicians.

It's going to be a great year as the battle of the billionaires has already started.
With any luck people will start to understand just how indoctrinated they really are, and the last guy standing will be Bernie Sanders.....:D


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 30, 2015)

> As has already been pointed out, the notion that the Confederate flag represents slavery to the majority (or even a significant percentage) of Southerners is a fabrication



Irrelevant. It offends a lot of people, therefore you don't fly it unless you're offensive.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 30, 2015)

chimuelo said:


> Media is doing what they're paid to do.
> The pinnacle of power starts with Money/Resources.
> Multinational Corporations and the Federal Reserves' Fractional Monetary policies maintain the status quo.
> These corporations own media either through direct shares or advertising leverage.
> ...



Donald Trump is a media whore who doesn't give a crap what he has to say to get attention. This time it cost him money.


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## gbar (Jun 30, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> They can compartmentalize it in their basements, in the Neo-Nazi war room.
> 
> For that matter, this being America, they can proudly hang it on flagpoles on their properties.



Not in my neighborhood, they can't. Restrictive covenants. You may fly an American Flag, though. Or even your favorite spots team's. 

Not the confederate battle flag. Prohibited by the Homeowner's Association. It's about our property values p


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## chimuelo (Jun 30, 2015)

Trump is going to make money Larry, not General Electric or APAC/UnaVision/Der Speigel....
If he just exposes the corruption that we call "democracy" and pisses off the crony capitalists that shape our elections its a win for us.
The losers here are the families and the girls who worked so hard to pull this live show together.

But when one looks at Conservatives and Liberals we see the very same type of "representation."
Millions get a helping hand, but many millions more pay for that unfairly, as the Liberal Trial Lawyers and GOP Prosecuters do what they do best. Screw everything up for everyone else since the real game is all about them, their big legacy, their big win....Lawyers, they are the same no matter what title you give them.

They leave a trail of misery and shit behind them big enough to fertilize the Sinai.


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## rgames (Jun 30, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> They can compartmentalize it in their basements, in the Neo-Nazi war room.


How many such rooms have you seen? I ask because I've lived a huge portion of my life in the South and have never seen such a room. Nor have I heard anyone refer to one.

I gather your decades in the South were different than mine. Please share and let's figure out why our experiences were so different. Maybe all the white supremacists just didn't trust me but they did trust you 

I am reminded of the Gabby Giffords shooting here in Tucson - this forum erupted with comments about how we had it coming, we created the environment, Tucson was a conservative radical breeding ground (never mind that both Congressional districts were held by Democrats, facts be damned). It was and is a fabrication that people wish were true because it gives them something to rail against.

It's fodder for people who need a lot of attention.

Certainly the Confederate flag is a symbol that offends a lot of people. But I grew up around it and my experience is that there are vastly more people who are smart enough to accept that it represents a complicated past that can't be summed up in sound bytes. EXACTLY like the American flag. If you aren't calling for repudiation of the American flag then there's no way you can logically call for repudiation of the Confederate flag. If you rail against one, you must rail against both. Alternatively, you can accept that they're symbols of a complicated past, some of which you agree with and some you don't.

Also, Wagner is much closer to antisemitism than the Confederate flag is to slavery. So we should work first at ridding weddings of the Bridal Chorus so that we don't offend the Jews in attendance.

As I said above, you can do what you want with the Confederate flag. I have no horse in that race. I was living in Georgia when the state took it off the flag and it created a temporary stir and then - drumroll - nothing. Just as in Georgia, getting rid of the Confederate flag in other states will have no effect on anything. So why waste time on it? All it does is draw attention to people who need it and can't figure out any other way to get it.

Just because an act is just doesn't mean it's the best thing to do. Society has limited capacity. Use it to best effect.

rgames


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 30, 2015)

If you rail against one, you must rail against both?!

I always thought there was a Civil War, and the American region that was trying to secede and continue having slaves used that flag as their banner. But it's nothing to get emotional about. Just history.


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## rgames (Jun 30, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> If you rail against one, you must rail against both?!


Only if you're interested in consistency of thought. But don't worry - we won't accuse you of that 

Slavery was not a significant part of the Civil War until well after it began and, as already mentioned above, not a major motivation for many in the South. In fact, Lincoln explicitly stated that he had no intention of abolishing slavery when he was elected and when the secession began. There's some more history for you. He adopted it as a cause later in the war because it was politically expedient to do so. (Some more history for you: before the war, Lincoln's position on slavery was that it was immoral but he didn't believe the slaves should be freed into equal rights in American society - he believed they should be sent back from where they came. Does the US flag represent that belief to you?)

The Confederate flag (and, in fact, almost any flag) has a complicated history that can't be defined by adherence to any one particular set of values or actions. You can choose to define it by those that you disagree with but you must accept that they are not the entirety of what it represents.

So, as I said above, the question becomes this: to what extent does it represent the negatives as defined by social norms? The Nazi flag clearly has a near-singular association with hatred and oppression. But the Confederate flag does not (nor does the US flag). Therefore, it's significantly more complicated to draw conclusions about what should be done about the Confederate flag.

And because of that complication, the debates are longer and less productive, thereby consuming political capital that could be used to do something that has more impact on society.

Why not do the latter?

rgames


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## NYC Composer (Jun 30, 2015)

rgames said:


> Only if you're interested in consistency of thought. But don't worry - we won't accuse you of that
> 
> Slavery was not a significant part of the Civil War until well after it began and, as already mentioned above, not a major motivation for many in the South. In fact, Lincoln explicitly stated that he had no intention of abolishing slavery when he was elected and when the secession began. There's some more history for you. He adopted it as a cause later in the war because it was politically expedient to do so. (Some more history for you: before the war, Lincoln's position on slavery was that it was immoral but he didn't believe the slaves should be freed into equal rights in American society - he believed they should be sent back from where they came. Does the US flag represent that belief to you?)
> 
> ...



If I understand you correctly, you believe the Confederate flag doesn't exactly equate with racism, so you think the whole debate is a lot of hoohah. However, I personally know 15 or 20 people who are completely offended by its symbolic references. So- you're just you, and your opinion is just your opinion, and on a personal basis I reject it, because the obvious text or subtext or whatever is racist. To me. And people I know. Have your opinion and bless you. Fly your freak flag, Richard.

As to whether I've been in a neo-Nazi basement-why yes! A group of Aryan Brotherhood fellows I know invited me in for a diet soda and some healthy debate. By the way, have you ever been in an ISIS planning meeting, or met any ISIS chaps? How do you know now they exist? Ever been to the Taj Mahal? No? Where's your empirical proof it exists?

Nope, I never spent decades in the south, only a few years as a traveling musician. I've always loved the South. I recently drove the Gulf Coast for a week. Lovely people. Less racist than the stereotypes, more congenial embedded racism than the North though. Have you ever spent a few decades in the Northeast? What do you really know about us?

Back to the flag- as far as I know, your ancestors weren't dragged here, had their history erased and kept subjugated until very recently, so your take on it all seems to be at a somewhat rhetorical and unaffected remove. You like to frame your opinion as "logic", but it's really about your personal outlook, and btw- I suspect I know a crapload more about anti-Semitism than you do, and I don't rail against art or the makers of art regardless of their heinous views. I just like to call them out as what they are and make sure they're acknowledged as racists.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 30, 2015)

chimuelo said:


> Trump is going to make money Larry, not General Electric or APAC/UnaVision/Der Speigel....
> If he just exposes the corruption that we call "democracy" and pisses off the crony capitalists that shape our elections its a win for us.
> The losers here are the families and the girls who worked so hard to pull this live show together.
> 
> ...



Jimmy, have you noticed that Donald IS a crony capitalist???


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## rgames (Jun 30, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> If I understand you correctly, you believe the Confederate flag doesn't exactly equate with racism, so you think the whole debate is a lot of hoohah.


No - I said quite the opposite. I get the sense you're not interested in a real discussion so I'll let it go. You can go back and read my posts to see what you're missing.

Here's some more info, though: yes, I have a history in the Northeast. I was born there. As were my parents. I lived in Newark as a kid before I moved to the South. My father is from NYC and his parents were from Jewish immigrant families who left Eastern Europe at least partly to escape the antisemitism there. I am an "Ames" only because my grandfather changed his name from a clearly Eastern European/Russian-sounding name that was not conducive to his work in show business during the 50's and 60's. There's some oppression for you...

So I have all that perspective along with a couple decades of living in the South to shape my comments on the Confederate flag. I submit they're a better representation of reality than the drivel you're fed by the national media outlets and attention-hungry talking heads.

Something about the new forum enticed me back into the off-topics section - I haven't ventured here in a while. It appears there is still an "all or nothing" mentality with no allowance for the reality of shades of gray.

Alas.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 30, 2015)

rgames said:


> No - I said quite the opposite. I get the sense you're not interested in a real discussion so I'll let it go. You can go back and read my posts to see what you're missing.
> 
> Here's some more info, though: yes, I have a history in the Northeast. I was born there. As were my parents. I lived in Newark as a kid before I moved to the South. My father is from NYC and his parents were from Jewish immigrant families who left Eastern Europe at least partly to escape the antisemitism there. I am an "Ames" only because my grandfather changed his name from a clearly Eastern European/Russian-sounding name that was not conducive to his work in show business during the 50's and 60's. There's some oppression for you...
> 
> ...



Your sense is totally inaccurate. I am always interested in real discussions, and I don't bolt to show contempt for someone who holds a different opinion than I do, nor do I exhibit contempt for their intellect if they obviously have a healthy one. It's important when dealing with subjective discussions not to accuse one you debate with an "all or nothing mentality" simply because their subjective opinion differs from yours.

"I'll let it go" is a show of contempt, as is the assertion that everything I or anyone else who disagrees with you must have been spoonfed by media as they couldn't possibly have an idea of their own. Don't enter discussions or debates if your only interest is establishing primacy and your idea of argument is to insult someone for disagreeing with you. It's sort of childish.

What your previous posts both stated and further implied regarding the flag issue- "it's complicated." I submit that though its history may be more than simple, the issue of its display isn't complicated at all. The historical complexities are outweighed by the immorality of waving a flag that became a symbol of racism and terror for many in front of African Americans, and the recent trauma in Charleston re-opened that debate. That flag needs to be removed from the public arena.

Your history is interesting, and I concede that your experience of locales is broader than mine. Try a concession of your own- who knows, it might be a whole new experience. Maybe it'll actually lead to an intelligent discussion full of good will!


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## gbar (Jul 1, 2015)

If y'all are more interested in a less-filtered view of the Old South, any of David Williams books on the subject would be good, but "A Peoples' History of the Civil War" probably makes it clear that there was much nefarious policy making and politicking, etc going on both sides of the Mason Dixon line and does it in a reader-friendly manner.

"Bitterly Divided" is really good at poking holes primarily in the idea of Southern unity and the "Lost Cause" post Reconstruction revisionism. He also has done some text books on Georgia and the Old South and such that are revealing. Also, "South vs South", by William W. Freehling is a good read.

That'll take you through to the Reconstruction anyway. You will have to become more inquisitive and find your own sources for the Reconstruction period, rise of the Klan (which I think peaked during Woodrow Wilson's presidency), the Dixiecrat rebellion in 1948 when Harry Truman desegregated the US Military, the KKK's strategy of applying purity tests against Democratic party candidates and how that would eventually be capitalized on by Nixon's "Southern Strategy" of using code words like "states' rights", etc ... because I can't think of the names of any authors or books that stand out while drinking my first cup of coffee.


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## chimuelo (Jul 1, 2015)

Very interested in getting some titles as reading is the only way to educate people these days.

And Larry Trump is many things, in this case he's the James Bond who will shake up the phony process on the right, while my man Bernie exposes Hillary and her self enrichment purposes on the left. But Warren and others are silent as they all want Hillary to win so they can elevate themselves into lifelong pursuits, probably pre arranged already.

FWIW evil CEOs and Billionaires are paying into my Pension fund. The idea these people are what's wrong with the USA is wrong. However Goldman Sachs is a revolving door for Liberals and Conservatives, so I'd be happy to beat up on them some more.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 1, 2015)

It really doesn't matter whether the people who fly the Confederate battle flag (as opposed to the flag of the Confederacy) mean it as a symbol of racism or not. What matters is that for Black people it is the equivalent of the Nazi symbol to Jews in that it triggers deep seated anxiety in those who see it because in the past it was widely used by racists.

It needs to be taken down. Someone's freedom to throw out their arm as in a punch stops just short of some other person's nose.


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## Michael K. Bain (Jul 1, 2015)

I'm sure I'm more conservative than 90% of the people at vi-control, and I agree with Jay. I see no need for the Confederate flag to fly publicly. But it should have a place in museums and history books. When I look at the Confederate flag as a former Civil War buff, I see it as a symbol of the rebellion against the Union. not racism. However, I can understand why it would be seen as a symbolism of racism to black people.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 1, 2015)

Right Michael and again, the flag of the Confederacy and this Confederate _battle_ flag are different and have different implications for many people.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 1, 2015)

Jay is right.

Richard, you're wrong - especially when it comes to accusing me of not having consistency of thought. I'm very consistent about thinking you're on the wrong side of every issue.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 1, 2015)

> Nixon's "Southern Strategy" of using code words like "states' rights",



And it's still a dog whistle, of course - as much for the low tooth-to-tattoo ratio population as for liberals like me.


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## chimuelo (Jul 1, 2015)

View attachment 3849
O
Interesting historical landmark depicting various white racists who landed here to kill other white racists. My first trip to the Theater where Mary Poppins (white racist actress) is playing for free for families of white black and Hispanic racists.


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## edhamilton (Jul 1, 2015)

7 Black churches -burned to the ground in the last two weeks.
Civil war might be winding down - racism, not so much.
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/six-predominately-black-church-burned-10-days


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## chimuelo (Jul 1, 2015)

Well racists are surely doing this but please clarify if they're asian black indian white or hispanic racists.
I would definately research any copy / pastes from a network where lying is a prerequisite for employment.
Maybe the report came from Bryan Williams in real time while he fought off dozens of hooded Klansmen on horseback......


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## edhamilton (Jul 1, 2015)

Your right. Those southern asian racists might be at it again.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/06/29/six-predominately-black-southern-churches-burn-within-a-week-with-arson-suspected-in-at-least-three/

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-black-churches-naacp-20150630-story.html
http://www.rawstory.com/2015/06/who...-3-southern-congregations-in-the-last-7-days/
http://www.abcnews4.com/story/29447515/fire-at-mount-zion-ame-church-in-greeleyville


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## rgames (Jul 1, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> What matters is that for Black people it is the equivalent of the Nazi symbol to Jews in that it triggers deep seated anxiety in those who see it because in the past it was widely used by racists.


Yes Jay - we all agree that the Confederate flag is a symbol that offends some people. Maybe you didn't read the entire thread.

The problem is that there's no rational or moral way to use that as a basis for banning it. You'll just offend more people in the process and do nothing to change the behaviors of which you disapprove. So what have you accomplished?

Here's an example of what you might have missed: I pointed out (and Larry, as well) that some Native Americans view the American flag with all the same emotions that some blacks view the Confederate flag.

So are you going to ban public displays of the American flag? If so, where do you stop sliding down that slippery slope? How many other flags do you ban? How do you even measure whatever metric you use to decide if a flag is ban-worthy? If your logic is that the Confederate flag should be banned because it's mostly a symbol of oppression to some blacks then you *must* agree to ban the American flag because clearly it is mostly a symbol of oppression to some Native Americans.

The only *rational* way to continue to allow the American flag while banning the Confederate flag is to claim that the oppression of Native American's doesn't count. But there's no *moral* way to make that argument.

So banning the Confederate flag is either a moral or a rational folly. It must fail under one requirement or the other.

QED (again)

The much better approach is to just accept that the flags have a complicated history that can't be easily digested without understanding the history of both. And I'll say it again, the VAST majority of those of us who grew up with it, blacks and whites, do just that.

And finally, the most important point, you're not going to change anyone's behavior by getting rid of a flag.

rgames


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## NYC Composer (Jul 1, 2015)

rgames said:


> Yes Jay - we all agree that the Confederate flag is a symbol that offends some people. Maybe you didn't read the entire thread.
> 
> The problem is that there's no rational or moral way to use that as a basis for banning it. You'll just offend more people in the process and do nothing to change the behaviors of which you disapprove. So what have you accomplished?
> 
> ...



No, Richard- we all agree that the Confederate battle flag flying on state ground in South Caolina offends a whole crapload of people-all of us except you, who as usual, is on the wrong side of history AND progress, as is anyone who doesn't understand the very real, as opposed to phony "southern pride" symbolism of the Confederate battle flag.

All that BS about the American flag offending some people is a strawman argument. THAT flag IS the national flag, so it will be flown. The Confederate flag is not, though it is presently being flown by some very passionate people outside the U.S., i.e. Nazis in Germany-as they are disallowed from flying the Nazi flag, they see the Confderate battle flag as a viable alternative, much as diehard Southerners who still think the result of the Civil War is still an open argument.

I see you've done comprehensive polls about blacks who have grown up with the Confederate battle flag being very accepting of it. Please publish your findings. (as if). That must have been the smallest anecdotal sampling in the history of polling. So much for your scientific methodology.

The reason to remove the flag isn't a forlorn hope of changing the behavior of generational racists. It's about not waving a historic symbol of slavery, terrorism and racism in front of a large amount of people, but hey...maybe I should leave this discussion and suggest you're a moron because we vehemently disagree.

Hmm......nah.


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## chimuelo (Jul 1, 2015)

Brotha' Man Ed H.
Did you maybe stop to think before copy/pasting General Electric/MSNBC link to check on Christian Churches burned in Tenneessee just in the Month of May....?
Check it out. Never made the news.
Unless you actually research propaganda.

First thing I always do is look for other fires maybe of black churches in the north....Nope, no such thing.
But since southern white racists is making lots of cash for the civil rights industry and corporate media has a narrative of "southern" and "white" it just isn't worthy of reporting.
They're just a bunch of Christians. Mostly soft targets, usually preferred, but the rise of the Klan propaganda is perfect for cash flow right now.


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## JonFairhurst (Jul 2, 2015)

rgames said:


> Y...the Confederate flag is a symbol that offends some people.



Understated much?

How about if we agree that _the confederate flag is a symbol that *deeply* offends *tens of millions if not more than 100 million* people?_

And that's why our government should not fly it. It offends me not only as a symbol of racism but as a symbol of treason and those who would start a war to gain personal power.

But it's not being banned (except by some homeowner associations) for personal use. Individuals may still fly it so that the rest of us can identify those with a lack of compassion and empathy. 

And don't think that white southerners are so innocent. The guy who owns the property with the 1st KKK grand wizard statue surrounded by confederate flags claims not to be a racist. In the same interview, he said that slavery was good for blacks. And if the state plants tall trees between his property and the freeway, he says he'll get bigger flagpoles. 

Oh well, he has the right to his belligerence and self-deception. But no matter what he tells himself, those flags are deeply offensive to tens of millions of people. And they should not be sanctioned by the state.


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## rgames (Jul 2, 2015)

JonFairhurst said:


> And that's why our government should not fly it. It offends me not only as a symbol of racism but as a symbol of treason and those who would start a war to gain personal power.


Look at this comment and ask yourself: to which flag does this refer? The American flag or the Confederate flag? Because, as repeated ad nauseum (with no reply), it clearly can apply to either.

Doesn't the fact that it can apply to either mean that whatever action you propose for one must apply to both?

If you insist it doesn't then you're marginalizing the experience of a race of people. Is that not also racism?

Some things in life are just too complicated to be packaged neatly into sound bytes.

A better end to this discussion would be for you just just to say "Yeah - you're right." 

rgames


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## NYC Composer (Jul 2, 2015)

rgames said:


> Look at this comment and ask yourself: to which flag does this refer? The American flag or the Confederate flag? Because, as repeated ad nauseum (with no reply), it clearly can apply to either.
> 
> Doesn't the fact that it can apply to either mean that whatever action you propose for one must apply to both?
> 
> ...




Strawman argument. The U.S. Flag is the flag of the country. Regardless of what it means to any particular group of people, it WILL be flown, as official national flags are flown in all nations. The Confederate battle flag is not the flag of a nation. There is no reason to fly it except justifications based on historical heritage, which are fine regarding private property but, given that is is a symbol of terrorism and slavery to many, it should not be waved in the faces of those whose ancestors were brought here as chattel and saw their history erased.

There's nothing complicated about taking the flag down. You just take it off the flagpole, fold it neatly and put it in a museum where people can revere it if they so choose.

The best end to this discussion would be to acknowledge that there are other opinions than yours, and that as much as you try to apply your brand of self serving "logic" to things, there is a world outside your head.

Edit- and that we should agree to disagree.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 2, 2015)

chimuelo said:


> Larry more symbolistic Liberal "Laws" are useless.
> When California banned Assault weapons it simply raised the price of them.
> At best it might create another useless Federal Agency.
> When people want illegal drugs they simply go the nearest street corner of a great society neighborhood and purchase them. These drugs are also "controlled" by vast expensive agencies that cannot do anything other than help raise the popularity and price of said contraband.
> ...



Hey Jimmy- maybe we should try some feelgood hoof- clacking laws. Stuff we got now ain't working too well. Let's close the gun show loopholes, ban private sales of guns, find some way of preventing the buildup of arsenals, make illegal gun ownership laws more punishing, set up a registry that includes histories of mental instability and see what happens. Hey, if the murder by gun rate goes down 2%, me and the other sheep will start mooing happily. Hunters will be unaffected, people who have a weapon or two for home defense will be unaffected, jeez. Could be a win-win.


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## chimuelo (Jul 2, 2015)

We need Crime Control Larry.
But I don't see that happening now. Why would any Cop dare risk his pension or life for
some Liberals that threw them under the bus, just so they could get more votes.

The 1.6 Billion they wasted losing another election would have been better spent bailing out our Greek brethren.
They screwed up so bad we are now going to see a Super Majority of Conservatives.
I always think the worst, in that way I am prepared.

I am beginning to wonder if that is the new MOD for the Fed/Multinational Banking Cartel.
They control the expansion and contraction of all currency, sell weapons to both sides in a Nuclear Arms race in the middle east. Protracted regulated warfare LBJ style.

The Trade deal and Nuclear deal go against everything the Prez stood for just a year ago.
My guess is he is doing the bidding for the real rulers this time.
Maybe ask a Rockefellar or Rothschild to pass some legislation for us, they own all of the other laws.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 2, 2015)

Regarding the flag- in the interest of fairness and balance:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/02/politics/confederate-flag-poll-racism-southern-pride/index.html


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## JonFairhurst (Jul 2, 2015)

Troll alert. (rgames)


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## NYC Composer (Jul 3, 2015)

JonFairhurst said:


> Troll alert. (rgames)



I don't think Richard is a troll at all. We simply disagree.


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## JonFairhurst (Jul 4, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> I don't think Richard is a troll at all. We simply disagree.



I should be more clear. Insisting that the US flag is the same as the confederate flag - even though one represents the country and the other the group that went to war against this country. And even though one fought to end slavery while the other fought to preserve it, felt like trolling to me.

I don't think he really feels the US flag is bad to fly in the US; hence, it seemed like trolling.

I didn't mean to say that rgames _is_ a troll. Or that he lives hear a bridge, let alone under one. 

PS. Apologies to our international friends. This isn't a US forum, but the topic deals with the policies of US states.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 4, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> I don't think Richard is a troll at all. We simply disagree.



Once again, i am not sure why nobody but me is making any distinction between the flag of the Confederacy and the the Confederate battle flag. They are quite different and have different connotations.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 5, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Once again, i am not sure why nobody but me is making any distinction between the flag of the Confederacy and the the Confederate battle flag. They are quite different and have different connotations.



I like your company's new logo, Jay.


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