# Advice needed on midi controllers



## uselessmind (Dec 19, 2009)

Hi everyone.

I plan on getting a new midi controller and need some advice.
Currently i have a M-Audio Keystation 88es. Doesn't feel great but i can get by.
But it doesn't seems to use the full range of velocity values.

So i am looking for a 88 key controller that uses the full range of midi values, has mod and pitch wheel and works with USB under Vista/Win7 64 bit.
If i can get more control(faders etc) and a better action of the keys that nice but not necessary.

I appreciate any help.

Thanks,
Tilo


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## uselessmind (Dec 20, 2009)

After reading lots more i have come (once again) to the conclusion that everything on the market sucks and is crap and i am better of buying something else.
Amongst all this it seems that in my price range (under 500€) the Studiologic VMK188Plus is amongst the lesser horrible options.

Does anyone here have that one and can tell something about the velocity values it produces?


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## macronencer (Dec 20, 2009)

Hi Tilo,

Sadly I don't have the information you need, but I felt I had to comment on this. I was in Digital village last week and I tried a few controller keyboards (I already have a Fantom X8 so I was actually looking for a 4 or 5 octave one to sit on my desk). I found the experience very frustrating. Nobody seems to make a controller keyboard the way I'd want it made! Every single one I tried had something that made me want to avoid buying it. Either the action felt wrong, or there was no mod wheel, or the assignable controls were too far to the right (what's up with that? I'm right-handed when I play: I want to operate the sliders with my left hand, dummies!).

Sorry, I'm ranting, but it's a bit annoying. Nobody seems to make what I want. So I sympathise with you :(


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## artsoundz (Dec 20, 2009)

The nice thing about a studiologic SL 990 is great action w/a lot of open space to set a smaller keyboard with all the controllers .Korg nano being a great option
. 
It does baffle the mind that there isnt THE controller out yet.

BTW_Casio pianos have superb action and low cost but no controllers to speak of.


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## uselessmind (Dec 22, 2009)

artsoundz @ Sun Dec 20 said:


> The nice thing about a studiologic SL 990 is great action w/a lot of open space to set a smaller keyboard with all the controllers .Korg nano being a great option
> .
> It does baffle the mind that there isnt THE controller out yet.
> 
> BTW_Casio pianos have superb action and low cost but no controllers to speak of.



Hi artsoundz,

How are the velocity values the SL990 produces ?


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## synthetic (Dec 22, 2009)

uselessmind @ Tue Dec 22 said:


> How are the velocity values the SL990 produces ?



Good question! 

AWFUL!!! 

There are three velocity curves. One gives velocity of 0-100, the next 20-110, the next 40-127. I use the middle one with two Logic Environment scalers to give me a wider range. 

Every year I go to NAMM hoping someone has made a MIDI controller that isn't a complete POS, every year I go home sad.


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## José Herring (Dec 22, 2009)

Dude avoid the keystation 88 like the plague. I had one for a year and at first I thought it was the greatest thing since slice bread but after about 6 months I found that the feel and the velocity sensitivity was just horrible. I went out and got me a used roland keyboard and it just blows the Maudio away. So unless you're really, really desperate I'd try for something else.

Jose


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## synthetic (Dec 22, 2009)

The M-audio is horrible, unplayable. It's worse than a toy because you can play with toys. The Yamaha KS8 is OK, but I think they discontinued it. If you can wait a few weeks, NAMM starts 1/14 and that's when new controllers will be announced.


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## midphase (Dec 22, 2009)

"Dude avoid the keystation 88 like the plague."

+1 

If you can manage to up your budget, I hear the Kawai MP5 is the way to go....good velocity response, USB, 4 data sliders, pitch and mod wheel.


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## dcoscina (Dec 23, 2009)

The née yammy S70xs has a terrific action because it's not too heavy but also not synthy. My hope is that Yamaha will take the action and board and put it in a nice controller
package. There is also talk of Roland coming out with a controller with their RD700gx action which is superb. Wait for namm if you can.


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## nikolas (Dec 23, 2009)

I got a Casio Privia 110, which is a digital piano. This means a great response, full velocity range (tested MANY times), along with other things. Draw back is the lack of USB connection and the lack of mod/pitch bend wheels.

I solved this by getting an Oxygen 8, which complimented my losses. Works great for around $600 I think! But that's just me! (plus the digital piano, has many other uses as well!)


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## chimuelo (Dec 23, 2009)

M Audio KS88 are excellent choices for synths but suck for classical Piano or any real dynamic playing. But it is a controller for sure and live it is a life saver with snapshot and mute all controllers features.

These guys are correct about a good controller being available.
If you.re into programmable velocity curves I suggest finding some action that suits you on one of the Fatars, and then use an Oberheim MC3000D Model.
I have the keyboard version and it's the very best controller ever made, and I have used everything ever made since the KX88 Yamaha, not that the new plastic POS either.
The Oberheim suffers only from weight and being a live player, without managemnet or crew, I choose POS with tons of controls since I am not trying to serenade babes with luscious string pads and boring scores. They dance and drink or I am down the road....
Developers are in the business to make a profit, and when they can no longer profit they drop items or find some Chinese cats to build some junk and shove it on us.
There's such a huge demand for the guys at home for little bitty keys or big ones that cost 300 bucks, they know this so that's why we are in this sad state.
I would suggest going on ebay and doing a search because you won't find one of these, and if you do they go for 5-600 bucks used.
There's 2300 that were sold here in the states and nobody ever sells them if they own one. If my keyboard version was 50 pounds lighter I would carry it around, but all of the old technologies were extremely heavy.
48 programmable velocity curves means your Rhodes can feel like a Rhodes, etc.
You simply call up a sound, and tweak it until you like the 4 part curve and then store it.
1024 programs w/ 8 MIDI outs. All routings and filterings are remembered, etc.
THe MC3000D will make a Fatar into a monster sample playback keybed..


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## dfhagai (Dec 23, 2009)

I have to stand up for the KSP88, it definitely not that bad, especially for the price.
Here's something I've played on it, isn't it good enough for "classical music"?
http://www.box.net/shared/rrprsshvxk


BTW, in the collage where I teach they have a Yamaha p60, 
I found it to be amazing, it feels so right, the best I've encountered (too bad it's discontinued).
Haven't checked the velocities though...


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## Mahlon (Dec 23, 2009)

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## chimuelo (Dec 24, 2009)

If you were to take a POS KS88 like I use live and route it into a Kawai or a digital Piano you'd be shocked that the keybed seems much more responsive.
I still believe it is the sound source that matters, and triggereing from a DAW is far different than a hardware module.
My KS88's are definately P'sOS, but I use felt strips and custom velocity layouts I made in Bidule. I prefer getting the action I want and the felt strips will work on any controller BTW.
After a couple of decades of someone else showing me what action " I need ", I just took matters into my own hands.
Also, I never hear of guys here using one or suggesting one, but the performers here in the showrooms who do Orchestral all use these Ribbons. Excellent for section Glissandos, and the best use I have seen is for the Erhu library.
They also have 3 zones and trigger independant arppegio's etc. Much more than basic pitch control.
This is how I take a 300 dollar POS and make it happen. I got tired of leaving NAMM like synthetic said, every year shaking my head. I'll take my POS's anyday of the week over everything else beacuse of it's superior MIDI control and performance tricks. I can make it happen on an ES88 if I had to.
At the end of the day, you either make excuses, or make music, I prefer the latter.


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## synthetic (Dec 25, 2009)

Good test for weighted controllers: see how fast you can play and how well you can control the velocity. If you can play repeated 32nd notes at pp and slowly work up to ff then that is a great controller (or piano). The M-audio falls apart on this test.


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## chimuelo (Dec 26, 2009)

Here's the facts.
1) Keybeds do not control velocity, the software interface does.

2) Controllers are never going to be perfect since they are for controlling other developers sounds.

3) The best " action " is on a Digital Piano, because the software was made for those sounds.

4) the heaviest action keybeds, which many here think are great, have very few controls or the developer won't profit as much. Their software interface is however better developed.

5) The cheapest P'sOS have more knobs, faders and wheels.

6) Software applications with their own SDK can correct these shortcomings and make any POS very customizable. Bidule and Scope both have SDK developer kits, and there is a native app I heard about that can fix this also. There was something called MIDIFixer I think that unsatisfied guys like myself are using for Native.

Yamaha, Fatar, Roland, etc. None of these developers give a rats ass what you like or think you want, they are going to continue using marketing slogans and take your money.
You can continue this course of unhappiness or you can get something you like and fix it to taste.

Didn't any of you guys ever put a Holley 440 6 pack on a stock car before...?

After 20 years of worthless crap I think it's obvious they think we are morons and will continue feeding us fish. Get what you like and make it happen.
Try the felt strips too in case you just can't perform w/o the perfect action.....
It can be payered to provide a better physical resistance, but boy oh boy that means you'll have to roll up your sleeves.................Lord Forbid.


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## kgdrum (Dec 26, 2009)

midphase @ Wed Dec 23 said:


> "Dude avoid the keystation 88 like the plague."
> 
> +1
> 
> If you can manage to up your budget, I hear the Kawai MP5 is the way to go....good velocity response, USB, 4 data sliders, pitch and mod wheel.



+1
*sold mine what a pos (Keystation 88 Pro )*
got a Yamaha kx8 not perfect but it feels way better playing.


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## P.T. (Dec 26, 2009)

When you guys talk about the keystation do you mean the one with weighed keys and knobs and sliders or do you mean the one with synth action and no knobs and sliders.

I think the Keystation 88es with synth action is better than all of the rest of the synth action controllers I have tried.


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## A/V4U (Dec 26, 2009)

P.T. @ Sat Dec 26 said:


> When you guys talk about the keystation do you mean the one with weighed keys and knobs and sliders or do you mean the one with synth action and no knobs and sliders.
> 
> I think the Keystation 88es with synth action is better than all of the rest of the synth action controllers I have tried.



To avoid confusion: Keystation 88 Pro c/p
Top features:

88-note hammer-action keyboard 
59 MIDI-assignable controllers; 4 zones 
USB bus powered and class compliant 
multiple dynamic velocity curves 
MIDI I/O 
includes Ableton Live Lite music production software, so you can make music right away 


Keystation 88ES c/p
Top features:

88-note velocity-sensitive, semi-weighted action 
built-in USB MIDI interface w/ MIDI out jack 
powered via USB or 9VDC 
class-compliant with Windows XP, Vista (32 bit), and Mac OS X 
includes Ableton Live Lite music production software, so you can make music right away 


There is diference in keyboard and features as well.


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## A/V4U (Dec 26, 2009)

This is pic of 88SE [I don't know how to attach two pic at the same time...hehe]


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## P.T. (Dec 26, 2009)

Thanks.

I know what the difference between them is.

I'm asking which one of the two the people in this thread are saying is awful and to stay away from.
I'm asking because as I said above, I have tried all of the commonly talked about synth action keyboards and I think the Keystation es series has a better key fee and response than all the others. The emu, the other m-audios, the novation, akai all feel spongy and sloppy in comparison. And I find hammer action to be pointless.


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## A/V4U (Dec 26, 2009)

P.T. I'm also in need to get upgrade my Ozonic. I was very happy with it untill couple weeks since I put my head in "high level libraries" and because of "keyswitches" I'm in desperate need to get some 88keys controller. KS88ES is for me the best choice right now. So thats why I'm following this thread for more info myself before I "pull the trigger" and buy something. I'm not very good keyboard player is just for simple melodies and MIDI note programing...and also price is important for me right now. Thats enough I don't wanna hijack thread


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## synthetic (Dec 26, 2009)

Here's hoping for a weighted controller at NAMM with wooden keys, killer action, poly aftertouch and pitch and mod wheels. (That fits in my desk!)


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## uselessmind (Feb 17, 2010)

chimuelo @ Wed Dec 23 said:


> These guys are correct about a good controller being available.
> If you.re into programmable velocity curves I suggest finding some action that suits you on one of the Fatars, and then use an Oberheim MC3000D Model.



I finally found a Controller with even worse velocity values than the M-Audio Keystation. It has some nice huge gaps between 90,100,110,118 and 125.

What can that MC3000D do for me to fix that?
I still don't understand how it could create something that isn't there in the first place but i am willing to listen nonetheless.


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## Bryan2449 (Feb 23, 2010)

What about the controllers from Novation? Anyone had any postive or negative experiences with them?


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## dfhagai (Feb 23, 2010)

I love my remote 25SL Compact.
I use it to program everything that doesn't need hammer action piano feel. 
The keys are great, lots of knobs, options, after touch and an overall excellent build quality.
One of novations greatest selling point is "Auto map", but I haven’t really found myself using it.


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## mikebarry (Feb 23, 2010)

I just picked up Novation 61SL MKII
and I adore it. Great action - solid build. 

Don't ever buy anything made by M-AUDIO - pure crap - unless doing data entry.


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## Bryan2449 (Feb 23, 2010)

The Kurzweil PC3 seems like overkill, at least for me. I don't need all of the built-in sounds and what not, just a MIDI controller. I must speak out in defense of M-Audio. Not in general, but I am currently using their Prokeys 88 and I quite like the piano action, especially for $500.


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## dcoscina (Feb 23, 2010)

yeah I hear ya. I wish Kurzweil would just put out an updated Midiboard like they had in the '80s- no sounds, lotsa controllers. With that nice semi weighted action.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Feb 23, 2010)

If you can find one of those old Kurzweil PC88's, they actually have nice action.

I use a CME UF7. Works well, but I don't use keyboard that much for MIDI input. 

As far as under 500, it's hard to get good quality with that price.


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## chimuelo (Feb 23, 2010)

Brotha' Man Uselessmind.........
The Oberheim will correct any sample library and attach multiple velocities, and even per layer to fit the sound.
But they are rare. If you ever even find one by the time they become available these crappy apps everyone uses might address this better.
I am learning how to make my own modules to control every possible NRPN and MIDI CC but recently had a 0-16000 14bit MIDI Velocity controller made for me.
Now my shittiest, pieces of Chinese crap actually respond perfectly well, and since it isn't a real Piano, but operates and performs like one, my interosseous ligaments that usually buckle after CHopins Fantasie Impromptu are ready to play even another dynamically challenging piece.
SInce these developers cannot afford to make a PAT keybed, and still use 25 year old MIDI even though we have MIDI 2 Specs that address these shortcomings, they can suck my butt. I had my own built and it will be running parallel with OSC within weeks.
But my DSP rig is kind of pricey and I believe Bidule could do this, or MaxDSP, C++ maybe, I am not sure as I just started building devices in the last 2 years.
But if you grow weary of the fish they feed us, and consider yourself a future performer or composer, I suggest you dive in. Yamaha, Roland and others have had years to bring this to us and only Infinite Response of Austin has succeeded somewhat. But I will enjoy using 0-16000 instead of 1-127 on my Chinese junkwagons as I actually like semi weighted action. I perform 6-7 nights everyweek so I am only interested in the performance aspects, not the " Heavy " action.
Check out Bidule as I know those chaps are on top of things and are eventually going to implement more advanced OSC features.
Or spend 6000 USD for a Roland V-Piano and still be unsatisfied, but the video has scientists in white coats with notepads showing how they built it........
I can't believe they actually think people are so stupid to fall for " scientists " having to build the V-Piano.
They should really show the poor Chinese girls with their hair pinned up sweating their ass of putting them together..... :?


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