# So that's what a pair of $20,000 monitors sound like



## benmrx (Jan 18, 2019)

Had a listening party at work the other day for a 'famous producer'. They shipped these speakers up from LA. ATC SCM150ASL models. These things are MASSIVE. Pictures don't do them justice. They weigh around 160 pounds. Insane. That's all.


----------



## LaurensGoedhart (Jan 18, 2019)

A friend of mine with his own recording studio also switched to large ATCs (I'm not sure if it's these or just one size smaller). They do sound amazing! And so is the price...


----------



## benmrx (Jan 18, 2019)

LaurensGoedhart said:


> A friend of mine with his own recording studio also switched to large ATCs (I'm not sure if it's these or just one size smaller). They do sound amazing! And so is the price...


Yeah, they don't suck... that's for sure...lol.


----------



## JohnG (Jan 18, 2019)

I have those in my car.


----------



## Gerhard Westphalen (Jan 18, 2019)

They're pretty good but you can do better for less. I definitely wouldn't set these as your "this is the best anything can possibly sound" reference.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr (Jan 18, 2019)

benmrx said:


> Had a listening party here the other day for a 'famous producer'. They shipped these speakers up from LA. ATC SCM150ASL models. These things are MASSIVE. Pictures don't do them justice. They weigh around 160 pounds. Insane. That's all.



So, that is how they look like. Well next time you are there, can you please record some samples over your cellphone or decent microphone to let us know how they sound? I need to buy some new speakers pretty soon..


----------



## stonzthro (Jan 18, 2019)

JohnG said:


> I have those in my car.


I've got them on my Vespa.


----------



## Jack Weaver (Jan 18, 2019)

Had L,C,R of them for several years. Still have the Center 150 that I use for worldizing work.

They're now replaced with a pair of Kii Three's. So much happier now. It's hard to beat the new Active Cardioid/ SBIR technology speakers like Kii's and Dutch & Dutch 8c's. They're also quite pricey but hopefully the price of this technology will come down in the near future so more people can afford it. I want everyone to absolutely crave the sound and translation of their speakers every time they turn them on - like I can now. 

Feel free to warm up the Google machine and check these out.

.


----------



## Gerhard Westphalen (Jan 18, 2019)

Jack Weaver said:


> Had L,C,R of them for several years. Still have the Center 150 that I use for worldizing work.
> 
> They're now replaced with a pair of Kii Three's. So much happier now. It's hard to beat the new Active Cardioid/ SBIR technology speakers like Kii's and Dutch & Dutch 8c's. They're also quite pricey but hopefully the price of this technology will come down in the near future so more people can afford it. I want everyone to absolutely crave the sound and translation of their speakers every time they turn them on - like I can now.
> 
> ...


Nothing beats a DEQX. Speakers designed for it are best but most DEQXified systems sound similar so using it on any speaker will get you pretty close (minus the crossover magic). If you do some DIY speakers (say $1000 in drivers) plus a DEQX plus 6 channels of Hypex amps, you'll beat out the Kii's and D&D for a little under their cost. Plus, you can build a bigger speaker which goes lower and with much larger headroom. Of course you probably won't have as nice a finished look on them but if it's sound quality you're after... IMO their cardioid systems are nice but I'd rather go with a DEQX system. If you could have both, then you might have a winner but that would require you do engineer your own cardioid system.

Edit: The Meyer Bluehorns are another top notch option (used by John Powell and Shawn Murphy). Again, IMO not as good as a proper DEQX system but close. I had a chance to spend a week with them at Studios La Fabrique. Only $55,000 each...

Another Edit: JBL M2 are also nice if you replace the amps and DSP.

Yet Another Edit: With the DSP available nowadays, the design of the physical speakers is all about headroom and distortion. Not driver linearity or behaving well with a crossover circuit. That's why the Bluehorns and M2 are designed the way that they are. No tweeters allowed in my studio...


----------



## KallumS (Jan 18, 2019)

I think I’ll get 4.


----------



## JohnG (Jan 18, 2019)

KallumS said:


> I think I’ll get 4.



Quad. Very retro. You can probably find laser disks recorded that way.


----------



## germancomponist (Jan 18, 2019)

Best loudspeakers in a best treated room = the paradise! Yes, no?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 18, 2019)

germancomponist said:


> Best loudspeakers in a best treated room = the paradise! Yes, no?



No. Room treatment is for sissies.


----------



## Jack Weaver (Jan 18, 2019)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> Nothing beats a DEQX. Speakers designed for it are best but most DEQXified systems sound similar so using it on any speaker will get you pretty close (minus the crossover magic). If you do some DIY speakers (say $1000 in drivers) plus a DEQX plus 6 channels of Hypex amps, you'll beat out the Kii's and D&D for a little under their cost. Plus, you can build a bigger speaker which goes lower and with much larger headroom. Of course you probably won't have as nice a finished look on them but if it's sound quality you're after... IMO their cardioid systems are nice but I'd rather go with a DEQX system. If you could have both, then you might have a winner but that would require you do engineer your own cardioid system.



Never had the opportunity to hear DEQX. As far as Hypex amps are concerned, Bruno Putzeys is the inventor of them and likewise the Kii Threes. I'm not likely to be making my own speaker/amplifier/DSP system. I'll leave that to others while I'm working. Bruno + team have created an incredible system.



Nick Batzdorf said:


> No. Room treatment is for sissies.


Funny story here. I spent 8 long days and nights evaluating the Kii's and Dutch & Dutch 8c's. I did everything I know how to do. One of the things that turns out is that cardioid SBIR speakers don't work right if the front walls have absorption on them! So I had to tear down my front wall to the wall board to make either of the speaker systems work totally right. So by your pronouncement, I am no sissy...

.


----------



## germancomponist (Jan 18, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> No. Room treatment is for sissies.


I love you, Nick!


----------



## Gerhard Westphalen (Jan 18, 2019)

Jack Weaver said:


> As far as Hypex amps are concerned, Bruno Putzeys is the inventor of them and likewise the Kii Threes.


Yep. He was also a part of Grimm Audio and I've heard good things about those although they don't have as complicated DSP as the Kii. The NCore are pretty great. Only a few class A/AB would beat them. I'd like to eventually switch out the rest in my system. That's largely for the efficiency. Running multiple class A and AB amps gets hot pretty quickly. 



Jack Weaver said:


> One of the things that turns out is that cardioid SBIR speakers don't work right if the front walls have absorption on them!


That's interesting. I would've thought that the front wall would be the least important to those cardioid speakers. Do they rely on the front wall in order to create the cardioid pattern? Based on their animations it seems that it radiates cardioid directly from the speaker.


----------



## Jack Weaver (Jan 18, 2019)

Gerhard,

In the case of the Kii's specifically, frequencies below 50 Hz are not radiated cardioid. So for those frequencies you have to go into the software of the speakers (or the Kii Remote optimally) and make certain selections based upon the distance to the front wall (and side walls) to allow for the DSP to make proper timing adjustments for the bounce off those boundaries (SBIR). Note to others: the Kii's have six drivers, 2 front, 2 side and 2 rear. Each of those drivers have a dedicated 225W amplifier - 1500W for each speaker. Even though they are only 16"H x 16" D x 8"W, they are tiny sticks of audio dynamite. That's why I feel no loss of power in a midfield setup compared to my previous ATC 150's. Oh by the way, the Kii's in my room I've measured ruler flat down to about 22 Hz. In my experience they outperform the ATC's free field. I never measured the ATC's in a soffit mount with its infinite baffle effect. Few people use their money to heavily design a soffit mount room with large speakers these days. I know Tanuj has and I'll bet his room sounds wonderful. But it's 12 time zones away from me and I have yet to get there.

I didn't buy the Kii's for their power, per se. I bought them for their wonderful depth, detail, soundstage and ability to translate well. They translate so well that I no longer use a second set of speakers for A/B'ing. I now have a pair of Amphion Two18's and their amp sitting in the corner gathering dust. Recently I've considered widening my equilateral triangle monitoring position from the 7' distance it is now to 12' instead - and moving my mix desk back to the 2/3 position in my room. The Kii's are powerful. Contrarily, I notice that Jacob Collier uses his Kii's as a nearfield on his desk. So they are very flexible for most people's setups.

The D&D's have ports on their sides (instead of speakers like the Kii's) and split up their cardioid response a bit differently than the Kii's. Frankly, I forgot exactly how. They present a bit differently than the Kii's. They have a very thick, almost narcotic low end. I can see why people like them - especially rock mixers and rock mastering engineers. I found that for more cinematic music the Kii's were more appropriate.

Hope that helps.

.


----------



## muk (Jan 19, 2019)

Amazing if you have that kind of money to spend on speakers. Unfortunately I have never heard neither ATCs the Kiis. But this week I finally got to hear the venerable Quad ESLs, and boy they are a revelation. No crossovers there, and ultrafast reaction due to the electrostatic design. But technalities don't matter once you hear them play. They are simply spellbinding to listen to.

They are huge, don't play earthshakingly loud, and won't do loads of subbass. But they sound like nothing I have ever heard before. It's pure pleasure to listen to music on these. For a fraction of the price of ATC or Kii they reproduce music in a way I can hardly imagine being matched, yet alone surpassed.


----------



## Josh Richman (Jan 19, 2019)

I tested several brands back to back when I was shopping for monitors last year. ATCs and Barefoots were the top contenders. I went with mm26s. I’m loving the transparency and precision of them.


----------



## wst3 (Jan 19, 2019)

I don't know a lot about the price tags, except that they are beyond my means, or my ability to rationalize, but I've heard a handful of what I'd call outstanding studio monitors. I make that differentiation because studio monitors are allowed (supposed to) show the warts, where home listening loudspeakers are allowed to gloss over some things.

Barefoots - heard them a couple summers ago in a studio up in Maine, and they are easily on my list if I ever have the need for truly great monitors. For size alone they might just be in first place.

PMC - you hear these a lot at trade shows, not sure why, perhaps they are somehow hyped? I don't think so, at least not to my ears. And my favorite monitor system is a pair of passive PMCs (can't recall the model) driven by a pair of Bryston amplifiers. Pure magic.

ATC - another trade show favorite, and they do sound amazing. I've only heard them in their native setting (a well designed studio) once, and it probably had more to do with the material than anything else, but I thought they could be fatiguing. They sound great, but in that setting they were a little over the top. Still I would listen to them again if I were in the market.

B&W - Second only to the PMC rig, these are fantastic monitor loudspeakers. The breathe, the rumble, they don't hide a thing. I've heard them in a couple of studios that specialized in mixing classical music, I understand they are very popular in that application. We did play some rock and roll through them after the session, just for grins. They handled everything well. 

I do understand why someone would spend $20K on a monitor system (and you do have to treat it as a system). There are lots of factors, and the ability to "wow" a client is one of them. The ability to hear flaws is probably tops on my list. The ability to make me smile no matter the material is also really important. Maybe even tied for first place. Imaging, sound pressure level, and non-fatiguing would be other critical issues.

I don't have a huge preference for passive over active - there are some cool things being done with DSP these days, correcting for horn behavior is one of the more amazing things. But it is difficult - to my ears - to beat a really great Class A amplifier. That you can use it to heat the studio is just a bonus.


----------



## Josh Richman (Jan 19, 2019)

I can say after a certain price/quality point of high end monitors the precision and flavors are very close to one another. The only difference being heft and mass of the sound, b/c the information is all the same. I did listen to the highest end barefoots 20k + range. (Was even hesitant out of fearing potential GAS or regret of the lower price range I was shopping for) The only difference is that you felt the mass of the instruments, the orchestra next to you and not just the exact sound. Perhaps one day... But bare in mind at this level of audio refinement, building and tuning a room for the monitors is really the full cost of admission.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 19, 2019)

A music editor friend had a pair of the big ATCs that he used to rent to the production company. They were really great.

Actually, I think he had either three or five of them for surround.


----------



## wst3 (Jan 20, 2019)

Josh Richman said:


> I can say after a certain price/quality point of high end monitors the precision and flavors are very close to one another. The only difference being heft and mass of the sound, b/c the information is all the same. I did listen to the highest end barefoots 20k + range. (Was even hesitant out of fearing potential GAS or regret of the lower price range I was shopping for) The only difference is that you felt the mass of the instruments, the orchestra next to you and not just the exact sound. Perhaps one day... But bare in mind at this level of audio refinement, building and tuning a room for the monitors is really the full cost of admission.


That last part is critical... a crappy room will make the best monitor suffer, maybe even sound crappy itself.

I think your first point is also spot on - it becomes less an issue of better and worse and more an issues of personal preference. Could even be the time day<G>! When I heard the Barefoot monitors I was on vacation, hanging in Maine with my family, visiting Camden because that's become a tradition of sorts, so my mood was pretty relaxed. The folks at the studio were welcoming - all in all a fantastic day, so it makes sense that I'd enjoy the monitors - it helps that they were very good monitors in a well designed room.


----------



## Nathanael Iversen (Jan 20, 2019)

For around $20k, https://www.revelspeakers.com/productdetail/~/product/salon2.html (Revel Ultima Salon 2's) are a speaker I would like to hear. They publish full measurements for them (super rare for any speaker, pro or hi-fi). They were designed out of the research that Floyd O'Toole and team did under JBL's auspices. It doesn't measure any differently than my Genelec 8351a's, but I expect that it will go lower and that it likely has an exceptional tweeter. To the point earlier in the thread, power these through a nice Pass Labs amp with gobs of class A power, and I'll bet it is pretty good. Whether it is $22k + amps good, I'll have to see. But I do want to hear these.

I can also say that the B&W 800 series speakers I've heard have impressed as well. Very nice. They use them at Skywalker sound for movie scores...


----------



## Jaredf920 (Jan 27, 2019)

I went and heard some monitors at VKLA... Loved the ATC 25s. To my ears, I like them better than barefoot, focal, and Kii. I need to hear them in my room though, and the Kii are very intriguing, I want to demo them as well. 
A mixer buddy of mine has the ATC 45, which sound great, but too big for my room.
I heard a LOT of PMC speakers at Capitol Studios (working on top secret stuff), they are fantastic. Spoke with the PMC rep a little and told him I wanted to compare them to the ATC 25.
Speakers are expensiiiive. :(


----------



## Dunshield (Jan 28, 2019)

I saw the title of this thread and was actually hoping to see ATC 150's. They are on top of my list. I heard Kii3, they had an addictive sound to them and a very open, 3D kind of soundstage but in the end appeared holographic and digital sounding like a plugin. Not my thing. Up until 6 months ago I had SCM 50's, smaller brother of the 150's, and compared them to the Kii3's. The 50's won hands down for me. The ATC's told me what was wrong in a mix, and they suggested how I should fix it. None of that with the Kii3's. the ATC's had a real thumping, dynamic bass, where the Kii3's were still a small monitor wanting to sound big. So lacking in bass reproduction. The bass was there, sure, but there was little solidity to that bass. Interesting monitor though for smaller studio's and hifi setups or home use, where bass reproduction is an issue that can't be resolved with acoustical treatment. And one thing I will say regarding the Kii3's is that they translated 3D information well. HOWEVER all of this is personal. I've played this monitor game for a long time now, everybody hears different things. Thanks for sharing OP.


----------



## AEF (Oct 19, 2020)

Jack Weaver said:


> Had L,C,R of them for several years. Still have the Center 150 that I use for worldizing work.
> 
> They're now replaced with a pair of Kii Three's. So much happier now. It's hard to beat the new Active Cardioid/ SBIR technology speakers like Kii's and Dutch & Dutch 8c's. They're also quite pricey but hopefully the price of this technology will come down in the near future so more people can afford it. I want everyone to absolutely crave the sound and translation of their speakers every time they turn them on - like I can now.
> 
> ...



Hey Jack, curious how you handle the latency in regards to your Kii Threes?

What do you prefer about the Kiis compared to the ATCs?


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen (Oct 20, 2020)

JohnG said:


> I have those in my car.


Did you install them in your red Dodge?


----------



## IFM (Oct 20, 2020)

On the more "affordable" side I love the Neumann speakers. For my small room I have a pair of KH120a's...nice, compact, and the detail I get now is incredible. They do have some monsters in the series though and I'd want a bigger room for those.


----------



## BassClef (Oct 20, 2020)

stonzthro said:


> I've got them on my Vespa.



I have one strapped to each arm for my daily walk-a-bout!


----------



## nolotrippen (Oct 20, 2020)

Bah. Can't beat my setup.


----------



## Jack Weaver (Oct 20, 2020)

AEF said:


> Hey Jack, curious how you handle the latency in regards to your Kii Threes?
> 
> What do you prefer about the Kiis compared to the ATCs?


Kii’s give you high and low latency presets.

So just click a preset on the Kii Remote (Kii Remote HIGHLY recommended, BTW) and you hardly notice the difference between the Guilty Pleasure listening mode and the normal low latency mode. I use the low latency setting for MIDI input work. Also... if you're really picky you can go out of your computer with your stereo output into the Kii's via USB and not use your audio interface and thereby save a few more milliseconds of latency. And USB mode sounds killer.

Regarding comparison to ATC's, Kii’s seem to have more dynamic range. Also, I never get ear fatigue.

I used the ATC 150's and 25's for a few years in four different rooms. They're good and they have a great distributor and dealer network to lean on. However the Kii's clarity, power, accuracy and wonderful midrange won me over immediately.

I've had the Kii's for over three years now and _every day_ I thank God for the power and beauty of the sound that reaches my ears. It makes work a continual joy.

Only recently did I add the BXT's to the system. 

.


----------



## vitocorleone123 (Oct 21, 2020)

I've only once listened on speakers - not monitors - that were priced at $20k+ each in a specialty electronics store (friend of a friend of a friend kind of thing for a couple hours of a listening party). Stereo only from vinyl or CD. The whole system was $100k for 2 speakers, a turn table, an amp, a cd ripper/player, and the stand and cables. Insane.

It was brutal to anything not mixed extremely well, and it was especially brutal to CDs not mixed well vs vinyl. It also was clearly designed more for rock or jazz etc. than something like EBM with deep driving bass. It was a very interesting experience. But when it sounded good... such as the vinyl of The Cars Living In Stereo, it was GODLY. Just so finicky because it's so revealing.

I can totally understand why top producers/engineers would want such revealing speakers as mentioned by the OP. I don't think I'd want such revealing speakers for enjoyment, though. Again, these were for home (castle?) listening that I listened to.


----------



## Traz (Oct 21, 2020)

Jack Weaver said:


> Kii’s give you high and low latency presets.
> 
> So just click a preset on the Kii Remote (Kii Remote HIGHLY recommended, BTW) and you hardly notice the difference between the Guilty Pleasure listening mode and the normal low latency mode. I use the low latency setting for MIDI input work. Also... if you're really picky you can go out of your computer with your stereo output into the Kii's via USB and not use your audio interface and thereby save a few more milliseconds of latency. And USB mode sounds killer.
> 
> ...


Who makes that desk?


----------



## Jack Weaver (Oct 21, 2020)

Traz said:


> Who makes that desk?


Sound Anchors


----------



## gsilbers (Oct 21, 2020)

I started with audio them moved into video post and encoding, machine rooms and distruibution for those big studios in holywood. 

and $20,000 is not that much in that world. there are custom software yearly license for about that price! not to mention the price of screen monitor that eclipse the new apple ones. 

but yeah if those remote control guys like alan meyerson, john powel are mixig billion dolar movies scores... getting a $80k in speakers is a good deal. Im guessing those guys are more worried that it translated well in huge theatrical speakers and the re-recording mixers dont have to change it that much. 

which is something im always curious about. how they deal with the low end on very low levels. it sounds far away small yet good and powerful. 

im ok with my focals solo6b for now though. the atx like the ones junkie xl uses (at least on the EDM stuff when i followed him) where somethnig i was looking at once... until i heard the price. i think it the same ones from the OP?


----------



## synthetic (Nov 4, 2020)

The first time I heard ATC 150s (or 100s?) was in a dumpy AES demo room. My brain was SURE rmthat a jazz combo playing on the other side of the room, and when I turned my head I was astonished. No speaker has measured up since. I’ve since heard them in other studios but I can’t imagine I’ll ever afford them. 

I heard PMCs in Trevor Morris’ stdio, I think he owned more than a dozen at one point. Also great but not Astonishing like the ATCs. Maybe someday.


----------



## rudi (Nov 5, 2020)

JohnG said:


> I have those in my car.


These _are_ my car!!!


----------



## J-M (Nov 5, 2020)

BassClef said:


> I have one strapped to each arm for my daily walk-a-bout!



Pfft, weakling. I have one strapped to both of my arms AND legs. Never skip leg day.


----------



## Jaredf920 (Nov 14, 2020)

So I had ended up going with a pair of ATC sm25.
Honestly the best nearfield monitors around in my opinion. Love the Sound Anchor stands as well!
After having worked on them in my room for over a year now, I couldn't be happier with them.

With a bigger room and getting into midfield monitors, there are definitely some other contenders (ie. PMC, B&W).
My wife has a family friend that is an extreme audiophile and I remember having a listening party when he got his Bowers & Wilkins 800D speakers, amps, dedicated electric panel, and whatever other hardware setup a few years back. I never heard of B&W until then, and I haven't heard anything better since. Those are the speakers they have at Abbey Road (along with ATC), at Skywalker Ranch, and Dennis Sands would often bring his to Sony when we did Elfman sessions. Dennis has quite a few pairs of speakers though. 
Sure, everyone's ears are different, but I think there is some kind of magic happening with B&W's synthesized diamond and/or platinum that they use in their tweeters that produce incredibly pleasant highs.

Here is a picture from when I setup the ATCs!


----------



## RSK (Nov 14, 2020)




----------



## Traz (Nov 14, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> I used to think I knew what decent audio sounded like... Until I listened to music through 22 PMC Speakers of which just the 5 front (Left, Centre and Right) QB1XBDA monitors cost well over $500k. No, that's not a typo. Over 500k not 50k.
> 
> Comparatively, the two rear used for Left and Right Surround Rear (LSR and RSR) are Passive PMC MB2s and they only cost a mere $30k in comparison. Let's not get into the custom made analogue Immersive console.
> 
> ...


I would love to have your job! That just seem like so much fun.


----------



## jononotbono (Nov 14, 2020)

Traz said:


> I would love to have your job! That just seem like so much fun.



Be careful what you wish for.


----------



## edhamilton (Nov 14, 2020)

I spent years on the monitor grail quest.
Loved my ATC 150's. (also had 25s and 20's at different times).

Have owned Kii3's for over 3 years at this point. 
and haven't even thought about speakers since.
Grail quest concluded. Expensive but worth it and not too too bad. (I still have a shit car as I'd rather have great speakers).


----------



## whinecellar (Nov 14, 2020)

Another HUGE fan of PMCs here. I will never forget hearing them for the first time at a mastering stage years ago. I made myself a promise that one day I would own a pair. I should have sold a kidney to make it happen sooner than it did. As others have said, they are a revelation - quite literally. It just never gets old being able to work on music through those things all day every day!


----------



## David Kudell (Nov 14, 2020)

I finally bought a good set of monitors this year. I sold a bunch of band gear, PA system, drums the works. Then it was time to choose between ATC's, PMC, and Genelec "The Ones". I first heard about the Genelecs here on VI-Control when Charlie Clouser mentioned them. What sold me was the EQ compensation. Not having a well-treated room, I realized the ATCs and PMCs would do me do good if I ended up with huge bass spikes. And the Genelecs confirmed that - the difference with and without the EQ compensation is night and day. It all happens in the speaker itself so there's no latency to worry about, no plug-ins. The coaxial setup also makes the stereo image super accurate.


----------



## rnieto (Nov 14, 2020)

I just got my pair of Genelec 8340A a couple of weeks ago and they are mindblowingly awesome. The GLM 3.0 calibration system really made them sing.


----------



## X-Bassist (Nov 14, 2020)

For me, as a mixer, speakers are about translation... how will my mix sound on other speakers, speakers REAL people have?

Yes, I want and use good speakers that will be transparent so I can hear my mix without extra color, but that doesn’t have to be a 5k speaker. It just needs to be one that helps me create mixes that translate well to TVs , laptops, and yes, cell phones... that is really your market.

I worked for a while on some Meyers I really liked, but then found some details that were obvious on the Meyers didn’t come across on consumer speakers, much less a laptop or cellphone.

So if you use speakers just for listening, then go crazy and spend all you want. But if your mixing music or films or TV, you better focus on finding speakers that show you the flaws, but are not so detailed that you think there is more depth in your mix than there really is. Something that translates to many other speakers well. That takes trial and error, mixing and listening on every device, until you find that match.

My current pair were under 1k, yet mixing a film for the director’s guild theater in LA, it translated great, every detail where I expected. That is the ultimate.


----------



## AEF (Mar 20, 2022)

edhamilton said:


> I spent years on the monitor grail quest.
> Loved my ATC 150's. (also had 25s and 20's at different times).
> 
> Have owned Kii3's for over 3 years at this point.
> ...


Ed, Im close to going with some ATC 20asl and subs. Total cost around 10k. Do you think the Kii’s are a worthy step up? How would you describe the differences, translation, ear fatigue, etc etc. Thanks!


----------



## edhamilton (Mar 20, 2022)

Couple thoughts -
20's are 2 way and although I like them, they don't do that ATC midrange dome, 3d look into the mids thing that the 25,45,50-150's do. But I REALLY like the current asl 20.

Integrating subs has always been difficult for me in each of the many rooms I've worked in or owned.
Even if you can get a seamless transition (phase) in your room - it won't do what the Kii's can do as far as the way they do phase alignment that essentially results in them being cardiod in nature. Less room activation behind them in in the front corners.

The perfect phase of the Kii's is a wonder. That's if you notice it and it matters to you. Some/most of us have lived with imperfect phase out of our speakers for so long that its 'normal' for us.

If you look to consider the 3-way ATC's, you have to work with them to see if that extra midrange detail is something that ends up mattering at all to your final mixes. Its easy to spend a ton of time with small tweaks in the mids - that simply don't make a difference for most.
Personally I'm addicted to that mid dome. But have to admit it often had me chasing my tail in the mids and it making do difference in the end.

Keep in mind that I have owned 20's (the old version and not at like the current one), 25's, and actually owned two sets of 150's (still have a set in storage).

Do you need volume out of your monitors? I ask because its the one thing the Kii's won't do without the BXT subs. You don't need BXT subs at all if you listen at reasonable levels. The kii's are really a full range solution, all the way down to sub30 hz. Stunningly accurate. Get the monitor controller as it lets you preset switch from low latency (subs not phase corrected) to "exact" mode where they do their awesome super phase aligned thing, but you can't work day to day in that mode due to latency. They still sound great even in low latency mode, its just a stunning clarity that opens up in exact mode when you mix. Do you mix a lot? If not, then maybe this isn't such a bonus for you.

Tweeters - Love the kii tweeter. Also love the third party tweeter on the 25's as well as the ATC house tweeter on the 20's and larger ATC. (its just not in the 25's yet, and not likely to be). As a comparison I find the tweeter in the Genelec Ones series to be far to harsh. They just bite.

Mids - Kii's are great. totally natural sounding. ATC 25 and up will do that mid microscope thing that may or may not help your work.

Low end - Kii's crush this. But they can't do it at high volume. Its still a small speaker.

Investment - Yes I'm in the camp that our tools also need to be considered investments.
ATC's hold value. The 20's least of all though.
My current concern is that prices are out of hand. I could sell my 150's for far more than I paid right now. As the song says - "what goes up ... might come down ..???)

Kii's - are getting long in the tooth for a digitally assisted product. My set is from their first 100 pairs.
I'd be concerned that a replacement will arrive in a year or so. That said, mine are never leaving, even if a new model comes along.

I blathered all that just to possibly help and since I don't have context as to your taste and needs - I blathered.

Its funny you posted this because I have been thinking about a set of 20's just to have a non-digital 2-way reference setup. Part of me is becoming an old school luddite and would normally have an aversion to any dsp in my speaker system. But then again, some of my luddite buddies that do have non-DSP speakers have recently added Trinnovs, so irony has arrived yet again.

If you head the ATC way - call Brad at Trans Audio. (the US ATC distributor). One of the best humans in the audio biz. zero salesmanship. But he helped develop the 25/45's and also nurtured the making of their own subwoofer pro subs. Eric Valentine added the subwoofer pro subs to his analog Strauss speakers (and then also added a trinnov!). All the big rooms in LA that have ATC's, Brad worked with them.

As I'll likely never have a room large enough for my 150's again, and love the mixes out of my Kii's, they will probably be my main speakers for the duration. But I miss them.

I'm sure all of that was useless. My wife assures me that most of what I talk about is useless, and she's really smart.

Used 20's at a great price is always my first recommendation for speakers these days.
used 25's would be next.
Kii's are a grail solution if it fits your work flow and don't need high volume.
150's are great if you have a room big enough for them and can treat that room well enough as they need space to deliver to potential.
150's vs Kii's w/BXT - wow - tough one. Find Jack Weaver here in the forum as he had 150's and moved to Kii's with BXTs. I avoid pics of his room just so I won't accidentally order the BXTs ......

I'll stop blathering. All I've done was make your decision even harder. Sort of like talking about sample libraries !


----------



## Dear Villain (Mar 20, 2022)

I have a $300 pair of monitors, and I felt guilty spending that much. Of course, I have a $3000 espresso machine. So, the question is, do I write better music, or brew better coffee?


----------



## AEF (Mar 20, 2022)

edhamilton said:


> Couple thoughts -
> 20's are 2 way and although I like them, they don't do that ATC midrange dome, 3d look into the mids thing that the 25,45,50-150's do. But I REALLY like the current asl 20.
> 
> Integrating subs has always been difficult for me in each of the many rooms I've worked in or owned.
> ...


Probably the best reply I've ever had on here or elsewhere. THANK YOU ed!!

I actually am averse to loud listening, so the Kii's could shine there. I actually am hunting specifically for a speaker that I CAN listen to at low volumes that still allow me to hear full range and translate. 

Interestingly, since you recommend the 20s at a used price, I have a line on a pair for 4k. Might just be too good a deal to pass up. Would pair them with dual 10 inch subwoofer pro subs for my 18x16.5x10 room. 

I JUST missed a great great deal on Kiis and the Kii control, and am kicking myself for it, but wasn't ready to commit. I really feel like the Kii's are the grail for me, everything about them makes sense. But the price/performance is a hard one to determine without using them daily. Thanks again for such an amazing response!!


----------



## R10k (Mar 20, 2022)

X-Bassist said:


> For me, as a mixer, speakers are about translation... how will my mix sound on other speakers, speakers REAL people have?
> 
> Yes, I want and use good speakers that will be transparent so I can hear my mix without extra color, but that doesn’t have to be a 5k speaker. It just needs to be one that helps me create mixes that translate well to TVs , laptops, and yes, cell phones... that is really your market.
> 
> ...


So what are you using?


----------



## Josh Richman (Mar 21, 2022)

I use Barefoot mm26s and they are amazing. 10k + stands (12)k setup. It’s my holy grail no need to go any further than that. I have to say they are the best investments in my studio. I can hear the positioning, any issues and fix it. I love them.


----------



## RogiervG (Mar 21, 2022)

Thinking back at those top mixing engineers that have created great mixes on the cheap NS10M "monitors"
(psst little trivia: they where not made for studio use, no they where geared at hi-fi home use and thus very cheap.. but due to a production error.. the audio it produced was very suitable for studio use.. )


----------



## Allen Constantine (Mar 21, 2022)

JohnG said:


> I have those in my car.


50x your car's price, I figure!


----------



## Loïc D (Mar 21, 2022)

edhamilton said:


> I'm sure all of that was useless. My wife assures me that most of what I talk about is useless, and she's really smart.


Ah, the story of my life…


----------



## Mike Greene (Mar 21, 2022)

RogiervG said:


> Thinking back at those top mixing engineers that have created great mixes on the cheap NS10M "monitors"
> (psst little trivia: they where not made for studio use, no they where geared at hi-fi home use and thus very cheap.. but due to a production error.. the audio it produced was very suitable for studio use.. )


Just to clarify, NS10s were never the main monitors. Mixes were done on the big (and expensive) speakers, then the NS10s, often along with Auratones, were used as "real world" reality checks.

NS10s were horribly inaccurate (light bass and an ugly midrange bump), and everybody knew it, but they were so common in studios because ... because they were so common in studios. They accidentally became a standard, so all studios had to have them. (I had them in both rooms here.)

Every studio had different big speakers, but in theory, they were all reasonably flat, so an outside engineer could come in and get a good mix. After getting a good mix, though, you'd want to double-check, so you would switch to the NS10s to make sure it sounds like how you'd expect to sound on a familiar pair of speakers. If you're a mix engineer traveling from studio to studio (mix engineers, back in the day, were all freelance), the one constant is NS10s. Kinda like how you might check a mix in your car. A car isn't a great mixing environment, of course, but you've heard so much music on those car speakers that you know how mixes are _supposed_ to sound there.


----------



## RogiervG (Mar 21, 2022)

Mike Greene said:


> Just to clarify, NS10s were never the main monitors. Mixes were done on the big (and expensive) speakers, then the NS10s, often along with Auratones, were used as "real world" reality checks.
> 
> NS10s were horribly inaccurate (light bass and an ugly midrange bump), and everybody knew it, but they were so common in studios because ... because they were so common in studios. They accidentally became a standard, so all studios had to have them. (I had them in both rooms here.)
> 
> Every studio had different big speakers, but in theory, they were all reasonably flat, so an outside engineer could come in and get a good mix. After getting a good mix, though, you'd want to double-check, so you would switch to the NS10s to make sure it sounds like how you'd expect to sound, bearing in mind that if you're a mix engineer traveling from studio to studio (mix engineers, back in the day, were all freelance), the one constant is NS10s. Kinda like how you might check a mix in your car. A car isn't a great mixing environment, of course, but you've heard so much music on those car speakers that you know how mixes are _supposed_ to sound there.


Yes, correct.
However, because of that "check" on the ns10m.. it still kind of holds up, to that there where great mixes indirectly done with them, like you said as reference only
being horrible inaccurate is a blessing in this case:
if it sounds "good" on those ***, you are quite sure it will on allmost all setups. from very low-fi (incl. mono) to high end setups.

Good old times... I haven't seen any studio back then that didn't had them..

*** 
Good means, for most ears bad... but if you know the NS10M frequency spectrum graph as an engineer, you know that a certain bad mix is actually a good one on other listening setups. 
Weird thing...


----------



## edhamilton (Mar 21, 2022)

AEF said:


> Interestingly, since you recommend the 20s at a used price, I have a line on a pair for 4k. Might just be too good a deal to pass up. Would pair them with dual 10 inch subwoofer pro subs for my 18x16.5x10 room.


4k for active 20's .... nice.
Have you worked on them before?
I ask because they can come across as light on the bass, and in a way that subs won't address.
They are sealed boxes so they don't give that ported push we are all used to.
Combined with the super low distortion of the ATC SL driver and they can feel lean below 200hz to some. But they are fast and accurate.
Overtime I came to like the sealed box design and even on my 25's, I'd use them with the port plugs in. (but with a wee bit of bass boost on the back knob).

Price inflation on monitors has just been nuts over the last 10 years.
I can remember paying $250 for brand new NS-10s (which I hated, sold, rebought, sold rebought, sold)
In many ways the ATC 20 is what an ideal version of an NS-10 should have always been.
Sealed (no port mush). Fast. Great at showing the mids (which is what matters most) but accurate without that ridiculous ns10 2K spike.
The tradeoff is getting used to accurate, fast , but lean feeling low end. Even my giant 150's could feel lean down there and it has a 15" woofer.

Best of luck on the quest. To me, speakers are the most important tool.

Here is a quick link to a "1 hour mix" I did on the Kii's that sold me on them.
Its something I did in one day, composing to mix - 1 day. so the mix was literally under an hour.
In an untreated room/apartment. Ran over to a friend for 30 min - 1 take live drum track - in his garage. So they sold me on delivering a decent mix, even though everything is rushed, no room treatment, terrible room tone for the double bass and garage drums. excuse the 2017 video quality.

also featured in the video is my "custom" dual Ikea "big curve" tops (from the thread on here about desks). Paid $40 for the tops, trimmed them, and have used them for nearly 25 years. Which actually makes sense because I'm broke from spending all my money on speakers, guitars, and sample libraries. Ya'll can understand.


----------



## edhamilton (Mar 21, 2022)

Josh Richman said:


> I use Barefoot mm26s and they are amazing. 10k + stands (12)k setup. It’s my holy grail no need to go any further than that. I have to say they are the best investments in my studio. I can hear the positioning, any issues and fix it. I love them.


Thomas' journey is pretty amazing. I followed him since ancient times in DIY speaker forums when he began discussing his dual side subwoofer ideas. I was one of the first in NYC to buy the original MM27 back when he was making them in his garage. 
All of these new 'subs on the sides' speakers are because of him. Impressive guy.
I moved to ATC for the mid dome before he added a true 3 way design to his lineup but have always been curious about the 26's. (27's are 2 way plus sub, 26's are true 3 ways plus subs)
His MM45 are my favorite speaker in his lineup but I haven't worked in the 26's to see if they win out. Likely they would.


----------



## gsilbers (Mar 21, 2022)

imma gonna go a little low brau here but i recently got the eve audio sc307 and they are superb. Better than my focal solo6be. 

So same as a lot of newer speakers, there has been a big change in speaker amp design where class D is being used and they are a lot cheaper and less heat. Barefoot footprints, focal shape and so on. 
I even got a $80 class D amp for my NS10 and they worked great. replacing a 200w huge class a/b amp. 
The quality has come up a lot imo so now i think prices flactuate a lot and its not as easy to just say expensive good, cheap bad. Its started to be a big grey area. And of course all subjective. But ddont say that to the nerd at audio science forum. my goodness do those guys like graphs. 

Also, i saw an interview w joe trapanese where he started using mainly the jbl series 7 which is the one being used in a lot of re-recording studios for movie mixing. The main reason was that on his very expensive adam sx speakers stuff sounded great but then at the stage it sounded different. so now he uses both to check mixes. Like the ns10 for post world 

I might end up getting a pair as well, because i do see those jbl seris 7 in so many stages in LA. Seems it has become the default for tv mixing and medium size movies. And being used with atmos a lot.


----------

