# Orchestral Tools : Berlin Symphonic Strings



## muziksculp

Hi,

I thought having a dedicated thread for *OT*-*Berlin Symphonic Strings* library will make it easier to find info, feedback, post demos, discussions,..etc. on this new library.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Kevperry777

Happy to hear about this library. Walkthroughs will be helpful. The demos from the very talented composer all sound great. I’m certainly no Benny or Ben, but I’d like to hear more.


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## muziksculp

I'm sure OT will be posting their official walkthrough videos soon.


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## John Longley

So far I’m not sold on the sound. It seems... fine, maybe it’s just the demos?


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## muziksculp

John Longley said:


> So far I’m not sold on the sound. It seems... fine, maybe it’s just the demos?



You can always buy Vista


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## tcb

I am waiting for a face to face comparision between BSS and CSS


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## Alex Niedt

Here's a stray demo that isn't yet on the site...


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## John Longley

Alex Niedt said:


> Here's a stray demo that isn't yet on the site...



This is fantastic. Not what I need, but this is a better example.


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## Robert_G

Another string library. Someone please give a real good reason to buy this....also explaining what holes the multitude of other string libraries out there are missing that this one will fill. Or is it simply a new flavor?


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## peladio

Robert_G said:


> Another string library. Someone please give a real good reason to buy this....



If you don't have a bread and butter library already or if you're obsessed with string libraries like muziksculp?


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## Casiquire

Robert_G said:


> Another string library. Someone please give a real good reason to buy this....also explaining what holes the multitude of other string libraries out there are missing that this one will fill. Or is it simply a new flavor?


It has a fairly unique sound and it's a large library recorded with the same mics in the same space as the rest of the Berlin Series. To me the upper strings especially in the higher registers sound similar to SSPro but the legato and the lower strings sound far better

Edit, and 3x RR legato is certainly new and very useful


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## ka00

Casiquire said:


> To me the upper strings especially in the higher registers sound similar to SSP



I thought so too.


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## Virtuoso

Casiquire said:


> the lower strings sound far better


Must be the 'bonus octaves' they've slipped into random samples to thicken up the sound.


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## ALittleNightMusic

Synchron Strings Pro's demos sound far better to me. Not to mention you get more articulations / content.

If you want a string library that's doing something interesting above and beyond the bread & butter stuff, Sunset Strings is worth a look. If you want a bread & butter library, there's a lot of options that are cheaper and offer much more than this.


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## muziksculp

Hi,

I have OT Berlin Symphonic Strings library installed on my DAW. I will begin discovering it tomorrow, and post some feedback about it on this thread.

Regarding the BSS audio demos posted on the OT product site, I listened to them, and I can assure you the library sounds amazing. Especially the legatos. Their demos don't reflect the quality of their libraries. Not just this one, but most of their libraries.

I remember when I purchased OT Phoenix Orchestra, I thought the demos sounded ok, but not great, for some reason they seem to have a heavy handed compression applied to their product audio demos on their site product pages. I would love it if they don't do that, and use much less intrusive compression algorithm on their site's audio demo players. They are not doing themselves any favors.

My advice, wait for Youtube videos, both walkthroughs, and demos form OT, and users.

I'm sure you will be super impressed once you hear what this library can deliver via Youtube, or other much better sounding streaming media than their site's demo player.

I'm going to contact Orchestral Tools to inform them that their website's Demos Audio Player is destroying the quality of their libraries. Hopefully they can do something to improve this, it will be in both in their benefit, and ours.

Hope this is helpful.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Mikay

Berlin Symphonic Strings sounds professional, but surprisingly, the demos make we want to update to Synchron Strings Pro now, as the upgrade price looks way better ^^ 

I guess it's a matter of taste (and money). Maybe a different mix of the mics would sound more like I want it or maybe it's actually meant to be layered with Berlin Strings to give it a fuller sound.


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## muziksculp

Mikay said:


> Berlin Symphonic Strings sounds professional, but surprisingly, the demos make we want to update to Synchron Strings Pro now, as the upgrade price looks way better ^^
> 
> I guess it's a matter of taste (and money). Maybe a different mix of the mics would sound more like I want it or maybe it's actually meant to be layered with Berlin Strings to give it a fuller sound.



As I expressed in my post above, BSS sounds phenomenally great, just wait for Youtube demos, and walkthrough to hear the library, then judge it, do not judge it based on the audio quality of the demos posted on their site, they are very well crafted demos, but the audio player is really messing up the real quality of the library. 

Synchron Strings Pro is a great sounding library, and also very versatile, so, Yes, I would also recommend it. You can buy both if your budget allow for that, or buy one of them, then the other one later. I personally can't have enough strings libraries.


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## mcalis

One thing I did notice both during the event and in some of the demos: the cellos have a very open/transparent sound to them that I really like. It's hard to describe but to my ears they sound the most 3D and "live" whilst the high strings have that lifeless staticness reminiscent of Synchron strings. 

Ironically in most of the demos the standouts were the woodwinds, at least to me.

At any rate I'm happy that OT has the a la carte option, because I'm tentatively interested in the cellos though I'll wait for some user reviews first.


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## muziksculp

mcalis said:


> One thing I did notice both during the event and in some of the demos: the cellos have a very open/transparent sound to them that I really like. It's hard to describe but to my ears they sound the most 3D and "live" whilst the high strings have that lifeless staticness reminiscent of Synchron strings.
> 
> Ironically in most of the demos the standouts were the woodwinds, at least to me.
> 
> At any rate I'm happy that OT has the a la carte option, because I'm tentatively interested in the cellos though I'll wait for some user reviews first.



Don't rush to judge BSS. It's an impressive sounding library. 

Just wait for the OT, and User based Youtube demos to begin emergin. You will be very surprised what this library can deliver.


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## Mikay

muziksculp said:


> As I expressed in my post above, BSS sounds phenomenally great, just wait for Youtube demos, and walkthrough to hear the library...



I am sure this is the case. I am just putting it into relation to other Investments and you can get a lot of sweet stuff for this money.


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## VHCMusic

muziksculp said:


> Don't rush to judge BSS. It's an impressive sounding library.
> 
> Just wait for the OT, and User based Youtube demos to begin emergin. You will be very surprised what this library can deliver.


How does BSS compare to Berlin Strings? I have the Berlin Strings and would like to know if the crossgrade is worth it. (Have many other strings library too already). Also, how does the new library work with the rest of the Berlin Series?? Thank you so much in advance!


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## Saxer

Most interesting for me is the ostinato legato. The simple alternating two-note legato pattern of 8th notes at 120 bpm. So easy for live players but no library can reproduce it. Even the round robin legatos in Afflatus can't. It works with some tricks (stacking Samplemodeling or Audiomodeling on top of legato samples) but it's never clear and simple. I hope BSS will finally manage it.


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## Pianolando

The trailer sounds fantastic to my ears. Super big and romantic sound. I’ve loved Berlin strings since I bought it and used it almost exclusively since I bought it, so this crossgrade looks very tempting.


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## axb312

muziksculp said:


> Don't rush to judge BSS. It's an impressive sounding library.
> 
> Just wait for the OT, and User based Youtube demos to begin emergin. You will be very surprised what this library can deliver.



Post some demos maybe?


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## Eptesicus

mcalis said:


> One thing I did notice both during the event and in some of the demos: the cellos have a very open/transparent sound to them that I really like. It's hard to describe but to my ears they sound the most 3D and "live" whilst the high strings have that lifeless staticness reminiscent of Synchron strings.
> 
> Ironically in most of the demos the standouts were the woodwinds, at least to me.
> 
> At any rate I'm happy that OT has the a la carte option, because I'm tentatively interested in the cellos though I'll wait for some user reviews first.



This is what I'm hearing too. The high strings do sounds quite sterile. 

I think we've been spoilt by libraries like CSS and performance samples strings. They capture an expressiveness that seems to be elusive for many other developers.


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## ProfoundSilence

Saxer said:


> Most interesting for me is the ostinato legato. The simple alternating two-note legato pattern of 8th notes at 120 bpm. So easy for live players but no library can reproduce it. Even the round robin legatos in Afflatus can't. It works with some tricks (stacking Samplemodeling or Audiomodeling on top of legato samples) but it's never clear and simple. I hope BSS will finally manage it.



The marcato longs using the pattern legato allow me to play in some more idiomatic figurations, not just with RR legato - but also with a re-bow feel.

this is all played in live, trying to do different patterns one might program.

there's a few times I should be switching articulations but pretty playable in general

Celli are the first instrument I reached for - just to toy with the mics, and it's nice and gooey with those soft sustains - could play those for hours


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## Al Maurice

Sounds nice from an orchestral perspective.

Although the big question remains, what can this library offer the other symphonic alternatives can't?


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## ProfoundSilence

Al Maurice said:


> Sounds nice from an orchestral perspective.
> 
> Although the big question remains, what can this library offer the other symphonic alternatives can't?




Mic merging, RR legato - and a pretty consistent set of articulations. - Especially the shorts-marcato, which have much more usable lengths than the alternatives.


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## Secret Soundworks

ProfoundSilence said:


> Mic merging, RR legato - and a pretty consistent set of articulations. - Especially the shorts-marcato, which have much more usable lengths than the alternatives.



Can you send a demo of the spiccatos / staccatos? Have yet to hear those isolated. Thanks!

Edit: just saw the example in the other thread ahah


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## ProfoundSilence

just toying around with mic selection - doin ye' ole' minor chord voicing with transposing

this is spot 2, some leader, tree - and a little surround.

sounds huge and cinematic in general.


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## Artemi

reminds me of EWHS


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## ProfoundSilence

Artemi said:


> reminds me of EWHS



Probably the ensemble size


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## holywilly

Is BSS as wet as Berlin Strings? Even with close mic enable, the overall sound of Berlin Strings is still too wet for my taste.


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## AudioLoco

Nothing to write home about from the demos and the stuff heard on the presentation.
(Doesn't sound like a "sound quality" issue, more of library programmability)
The celli sounded like the highlight. The rest....
At the announcement I mentally said goodbye to Vista and the MSS etc preparing myself to hear the next big step in orchestral sampling.
The big selling point, of being able to do runs without runs patches is.... Well you still need run patches.
I can safely say Vista is still topping on my list. It is not perfect but seem to add something to the table at least.
Sorry, I really wanted to be excited about this.


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## ned3000

ProfoundSilence said:


> The marcato longs using the pattern legato allow me to play in some more idiomatic figurations, not just with RR legato - but also with a re-bow feel.



Those repeated notes sound pretty good. I always try to listen for that in demos but it seems like something demo composers like to skip.


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## Sovereign

Here's a couple of quick observations of about 30mins playtime.

- No portamento, damn you OT!
- The performance patches work really well in general, repeated patterns legato is what I bought this for. 
- Violins especially sound too sterile, especially in the soft layers. This is not espressivo playing, OT! Please add a true espressivo patch. It will make a great difference.
- Sine player still unstable and slow at times.


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## richhickey

holywilly said:


> Is BSS as wet as Berlin Strings? Even with close mic enable, the overall sound of Berlin Strings is still too wet for my taste.



BSS is very much the same as Berlin Strings in that regard.


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## richhickey

First impressions:

OT got the section sizes right the first time. In this ambience, the smaller sections of BS are much more articulate and detailed. BSS seems to me best suited for layering, big moments and general match with the rest of their stuff done at Teldex. Certainly useful for OT users. Berlin Strings on Sine would still be the bread and butter lib, IMO.

Can't get the Berlin Series to Sine soon enough, please. Just saying "2021" puts things at possibly a year away - I hope it's much sooner.


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## Sovereign

Quick doodle with the cellos and violas playing melody. Both can play quite emotional at lower velocities, I am stumped why they did not instruct the violins to do the same.


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## JeffvR

Sovereign said:


> Quick doodle with the cellos and violas playing melody. Both can play quite emotional at lower velocities, I am stumped why they did not instruct the violins to do the same.


Sounds beautiful!


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## ProfoundSilence

Ideally, even spreading berlin series out over quarters - q1 percussion, q2 woodwinds, q3 brass, q4 strings would allow them to get a head start on the easier libraries(like percussion) to buy extra time for the most difficult(i.e large) libraries like the brass and strings.


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## markleake

Sovereign said:


> Quick doodle with the cellos and violas playing melody. Both can play quite emotional at lower velocities, I am stumped why they did not instruct the violins to do the same.


That sounds nice. Thanks for posting.

I'm very unimpressed with the demos on their site. At first I was excited and thought I would buy them. But listening through the demos, it's obvious to me the woods and brass far outclass the strings, both in terms of presence and in tone. I think OT have made a misstep here, based on what I'm hearing in the demos. Even the shorts don't sound that good to me.

Your quick sketch is the first I've found where they may have some promise, some useful expressiveness. Maybe. The thing is, I still hear a raw buzzy static tone to them, even in that quieter part. I think this would annoy the heck out of me when using them for more than a few minutes. They lack the serene/classy quality and depth you'd expect from a full string section.

I am glad I bought Berlin Strings in the recent sale. I think I much prefer them. I have yet to try them (still to install), but I'm far more excited about playing with them. They seem much more expressive than BSS in everything I've heard. For symphonic sized strings it seems to me its better to stick to SSS or CS2 for a full tone, or something like SSP for a clearer more classical tone. All of these seem better and more competitive than what I've heard of BSS so far.


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## Robin

I played around with it a bit today as I wanted to see how well it behaves in a type of piece that I would call the "butter zone" for such a library:



Also, I wanted to see how it holds up against my current go to library for such things (CSS), so here's the comparison:



Cheers,


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## AudioLoco

Robin said:


> I played around with it a bit today as I wanted to see how well it behaves in a type of piece that I would call the "butter zone" for such a library:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I wanted to see how it holds up against my current go to library for such things (CSS), so here's the comparison:
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,




CSS hands down and no sight of a doubt


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## Franco

Robin said:


> I played around with it a bit today as I wanted to see how well it behaves in a type of piece that I would call the "butter zone" for such a library:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I wanted to see how it holds up against my current go to library for such things (CSS), so here's the comparison:
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,



Hi Robin a very nice piece. Congratulations. I too agree that CSS gives off an incomparable feeling of realism.
BR
/Franco


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## Andrajas

Robin said:


> I played around with it a bit today as I wanted to see how well it behaves in a type of piece that I would call the "butter zone" for such a library:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I wanted to see how it holds up against my current go to library for such things (CSS), so here's the comparison:
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,



this is very helpful! thanks for this, and lovely composition !

I just might think CSS still will be my go to strings library. Hmm


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## styledelk

I haven't considered CSS at all before this.


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## JeffvR

Robin said:


> I played around with it a bit today as I wanted to see how well it behaves in a type of piece that I would call the "butter zone" for such a library:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I wanted to see how it holds up against my current go to library for such things (CSS), so here's the comparison:
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,



Thanks Robin, beautiful writing!
I also prefer CSS


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## Henning

Robin said:


> I played around with it a bit today as I wanted to see how well it behaves in a type of piece that I would call the "butter zone" for such a library:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I wanted to see how it holds up against my current go to library for such things (CSS), so here's the comparison:
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,



Wow, really interesting to hear how alive CSS sounds in comparison.


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## lucor

299€ is a very tempting price, but unfortunately I'm not convinced at all so far.
The biggest reason for me to get it would be the RR legato, either used on its own or in combination with the marcatos, because that's something I'm still missing in my arsenal and never have heard done convincingly (including the latest Afflatus update).
So any user demos exploring specifically that feature would be very appreciated!


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## JEPA

Robin said:


> I played around with it a bit today as I wanted to see how well it behaves in a type of piece that I would call the "butter zone" for such a library:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I wanted to see how it holds up against my current go to library for such things (CSS), so here's the comparison:
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,



20 initial seconds, immediately voted for CSS.


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## MGdepp

Yes, I think this BSS is not really good in the expressive legatos and there it should actually have its strength. My lack of feeling overwhelmed at first glance was really not that wrong, after all. It is pretty much the same when I listen to Robins nice string arrangement.

It has some desirable other articulations! The marcatos and shorts are pretty good, although the staccato is a little to sluggish for my taste - actually to close to marcato short! It should be a bit shorter, now there is a huge gap between the ultra short spiccatos and a very long staccato. Other than that, the shorts are ok, though.

The RR legato is pretty solid. At first glance, I wasn't able to play anything useful with it, but that is mostly due to the delayed response. That makes it highly unplayable, but the same can actually be said about CSS as well. There are repetitive patterns this patch does not work for, but it does for some and that is a step forward, so, that is a good thing!

But both the fast legato and the expressive legato with the sustains are not really as expressive as the competition, which is kind of a problem, as it is the main point of having a 16 first violins library ... well, let's say OT is proving to learn from mistakes by providing a free ff layer for Berlin Brass, which I hope will turn out really nice! That makes me hopeful that they will also dedicate some extra love to this libraries' legatos and sustains and make it a solid symphonic string library.

For now, I am afraid, Alex Wallbank is gonna sell a few more of those CSS in addition to the CSW release (hint: there is probably gonna be a special price for existing customers  ...). They still did not manage to de-throne this gem!


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## shponglefan

Robin said:


> I played around with it a bit today as I wanted to see how well it behaves in a type of piece that I would call the "butter zone" for such a library:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I wanted to see how it holds up against my current go to library for such things (CSS), so here's the comparison:
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,




Another vote for CSS here. Right from the get-go it just sounds more natural.

Not to say that BSS sounds bad or anything. Just not quite as good.


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## Symfoniq

Robin said:


> I played around with it a bit today as I wanted to see how well it behaves in a type of piece that I would call the "butter zone" for such a library:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I wanted to see how it holds up against my current go to library for such things (CSS), so here's the comparison:
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,




It is not even close. CSS sounds much better. As the former owner of several VSL string libraries, I can understand why some are comparing BSS to a VSL product. There is a sterility here that I find unflattering, particularly in the high strings.


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## peladio

Yeah, agree with the others..there's no comparison..CSS is much much better


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## Al Maurice

I just been experimenting with OT's Sine Player. There's lots of configuration options, adjusting some of these may help. Have a look and see if that improves matters.


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## Eptesicus

Robin said:


> I played around with it a bit today as I wanted to see how well it behaves in a type of piece that I would call the "butter zone" for such a library:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I wanted to see how it holds up against my current go to library for such things (CSS), so here's the comparison:
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,




Not even a competition.....CSS is objectively better here.

You wouldn't have thought that CSS came out 4 years ago, whilst BSS came out yesterday...


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## Raphioli

My impressions of the cello haven't changed. I still like them (BSS).
But like others have said, the violins seem to lack liveness. Something which CSS and Vista/Con Moto has.


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## peladio

Eptesicus said:


> Not even a competition.....CSS is objectively better here.
> 
> You wouldn't have thought that CSS came out 4 years ago, whilst BSS came out yesterday...



That just proves again that newer doesn't always mean better which seems to be the sentiment most of the time around here when it comes to samples and plugins..


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## Vladimir Bulaev

And now that legato is settled, let's see who wins the battle of pizzicato?


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## Vladimir Bulaev

Raphioli said:


> My impressions of the cello haven't changed. I still like them (BSS).
> But like others have said, the violins seem to lack liveness. Something which CSS and Vista/Con Moto has.


and what do you think is this very thing? maybe this is the legato delay that many fools scold?


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## Raphioli

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> and what do you think is this very thing? maybe this is the legato delay that many fools and fools scold?


I'm not an expert in sampling, so I don't know what CSS and Performance Samples are doing to achieve such tone/liveliness, but my guess is maybe the samples themselves need to have at least a minimum amount of performance baked in. (violins sound static. but like I've said, I like the tone of the cellos)


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## Casiquire

mcalis said:


> One thing I did notice both during the event and in some of the demos: the cellos have a very open/transparent sound to them that I really like. It's hard to describe but to my ears they sound the most 3D and "live" whilst the high strings have that lifeless staticness reminiscent of Synchron strings.
> 
> Ironically in most of the demos the standouts were the woodwinds, at least to me.
> 
> At any rate I'm happy that OT has the a la carte option, because I'm tentatively interested in the cellos though I'll wait for some user reviews first.


Yes! The cellos really struck me too


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## Raphioli

Casiquire said:


> Yes! The cellos really struck me too


I missed @mcalis 's post which @Casiquire quoted, but yes, that's how I feel too.


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## Chungus

Robin said:


> I played around with it a bit today as I wanted to see how well it behaves in a type of piece that I would call the "butter zone" for such a library:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I wanted to see how it holds up against my current go to library for such things (CSS), so here's the comparison:
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,



Good composition, but blegh, those are some bumpy legatos on BSS. I don't know if this is due to scripting or due to recording only bowed legato. Either way, it's not good.


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## Sovereign

Casiquire said:


> Yes! The cellos really struck me too


The quality of the legato cellos/violas is waaaaay better. in the lower dynamics, there's just more vibrato.


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## Drumdude2112

Seems orchestral tools didn't 'hit it out the park' as they often do , eh .


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## styledelk

It still sounds beautiful. I don't trust these demos yet as to using it to its fullest one day out. But probably won't buy it until January at least.


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## muziksculp

LISTEN :


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## styledelk

(But I'm definitely listening to CSS demos now, which I've managed to ignore for years. Blissfully.)


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## Raphioli

Sovereign said:


> The quality of the legato cellos/violas is waaaaay better. in the lower dynamics, there's just more vibrato.


I liked your demo on the 2nd page, and like you have said, I think an espressivo patch for the violins would be great.

Its still nice that you can buy the individual sections.
And I wasn't aware that violas also sounded great, but for people who want only those sections 
means a total of 332 (174 + 158) euros for those 2 sections, which exceeds the intro price for Berlin Strings owners. Might as well get the full version lol


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## Vladimir Bulaev

Raphioli said:


> I'm not an expert in sampling, so I don't know what CSS and Performance Samples are doing to achieve such tone/liveliness, but my guess is maybe the samples themselves need to have at least a minimum amount of performance baked in. (violins sound static. but like I've said, I like the tone of the cellos)


No, of course not, and few of us are deeply familiar with what is happening there at all. Apparently I'm here like many too much spoiled legato "cinematic studio series."
So what about pizzicato?


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## Robin

Thanks for the comments. I deliberately left it here without any personal comment on it but I do agree that BSS is no match for CSS. 

Unfortunately, the Violins are the weakspot of the library. There's a lot of bumpy legato going on and in spite of fiddling with the legato volume there is no way to make them blend in better. 

Also, the somehow sterile sound of the sustains can't be altered drastically by balancing the mics differently.

As mentioned above, the Violas and Celli are considerably better and it is very clever of the demo piece in the trailer to focus on these. I wanted to try however how the library works in a piece that is not specifically written for it. 

For my personal use, I see it filling up some holes in my template like the RR legatos and the lower instruments have a nice substance that is for instance lacking in CSS, so I guess I'll end up mixing both libraries.

Cheers,


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## youngpokie

Robin said:


> Also, the somehow sterile sound of the sustains can't be altered drastically by balancing the mics differently.



Could you clarify if you used a single sustain patch for this or the combination (edit: and also, which vibrato level)? Thanks.


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## Robin

youngpokie said:


> Could you clarify if you used a single sustain patch for this or the combination (edit: and also, which vibrato level)? Thanks.


What combination do you mean?


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## youngpokie

Robin said:


> What combination do you mean?



immediate, accented, soft attacks, without vibrato, romantic vibrato, etc - I assume they recorded the same as the original Berlin strings?


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## Robin

youngpokie said:


> immediate, accented, soft attacks, without vibrato, romantic vibrato, etc - I assume they recorded the same as the original Berlin strings?


They did not. I used the soft sustains+legato with "expressive vibrato" most of the time.

Edit: There is Sustains, Sustains Soft and Sustain accented which in a way matches the original Berlin Strings


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## youngpokie

Robin said:


> They did not. I used the soft sustains+legato with "expressive vibrato" most of the time.



cool, thanks!


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## muk

Good offer for owner of Berlin Strings. Still, after listening to the demos I am not buying. Some of the best mockup artists have turned in demos. People who know how to make sample libraries sound good. And yet I am not wowed by any of them. To me the strings sound unremarkable in the best demos. In other demos I hear problematic and/or clumsy passages. Unfortunately, in the demos with elaborate orchestrations I do find the strings to be the weakest part.


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## muziksculp

muk said:


> Good offer for owner of Berlin Strings. Still, after listening to the demos I am not buying. Some of the best mockup artists have turned in demos. People who know how to make sample libraries sound good. And yet I am not wowed by any of them. To me the strings sound unremarkable in the best demos. In other demos I hear problematic and/or clumsy passages. Unfortunately, in the demos with elaborate orchestrations I do find the strings to be the weakest part.



Can't agree with you.


----------



## muk

muziksculp said:


> Can't agree with you.



You don't have to


----------



## muziksculp

muk said:


> You don't have to



I just don't get the rushed negative comments about this library. 

You might want to re-evaluate it, once more videos, and demos are posted, by users who know how to use it, and have spent some time learning how to do so.


----------



## OleJoergensen

Robin said:


> I played around with it a bit today as I wanted to see how well it behaves in a type of piece that I would call the "butter zone" for such a library:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I wanted to see how it holds up against my current go to library for such things (CSS), so here's the comparison:
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,



Touching and beautiful composition. Thank you for sharing this comparison, CCS shines!
But I think you just got Berlin Symphonic strings, if you re-record this piece after using BSS for a couple of month, maybe it will sound better....( no offense ).


There is something about the tone of Berlin symphonic strings that sounds strange or not natural to me, I wonder if it has something to do with the new compressed format......?


----------



## peladio

muziksculp said:


> I just don't get the rushed negative comments about this library.
> 
> You might want to re-evaluate it, once more videos, and demos are posted, by users who know how to use it, and have spent some time learning how to do so.



If composers like Robin or even Benny Oschmann can't make it shine, then I don't need more proof..

Could you post some examples to convince us since you seem to love it and string libraries are your specialty? Thanks


----------



## muk

muziksculp said:


> You might want to re-evaluate it, once more videos, and demos are posted, by users who know how to use it, and have spent some time learning how to do so.



I'll certainly watch the walkthroughs. But it's certainly not like the demo makers didn't know their way around a sample library. If their efforts don't convince me fully, who am I to try to get better results?


----------



## muziksculp

peladio said:


> If composers like Robin or even Benny Oschmann can't make it shine, then I don't need more proof..
> 
> Could you post some examples to convince us since you seem to love it and string libraries are your specialty? Thanks



I knew that was coming  

Give me some time to get nicely acquainted with BSS first, I haven't began, but will do so soon. 

As I mentioned more than once on this thread, their Demo Audio Player is messing the quality of the libraries big time. So, please do not judge them based on that audio quality. 

I'm sure OT will be releasing a good amount of new Youtube demos about it, walkthroughs, ..etc. and also users who have the library, and have spent a few days with it, (at least), will be posting some demos that will help you evaluate it much better.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

muziksculp said:


> I just don't get the rushed negative comments about this library.
> 
> You might want to re-evaluate it, once more videos, and demos are posted, by users who know how to use it, and have spent some time learning how to do so.



While my first impression s a great I prefer berlin strings for the amount of articulations, I am willing to plop them aside to cut my ram usage and load times to practically nothing. 

I agree some of what we hear is odd programming, something remedied by having more than a day prior to programming pieces. 

Then again I think I can name quite a few stellar libraries that the demos didn't click with me but having it under the hands made sense. Personally having the marcato-staccato line up with my other berlin libraries is a massive reason for me to overlook berlin strings, just for ease of writing.


----------



## lettucehat

ProfoundSilence said:


> I agree some of what we hear is odd programming, something remedied by having more than a day prior to programming pieces.



Not that it would explain all of the demos sounding as unconvincing as they do, but was this really the case? The official demos were done one day prior to release?


----------



## novaburst

muziksculp said:


> Give me some time to get nicely acquainted with BSS first, I haven't began, but will do so



Go on @muziksculp show them the ropes you can do It second thoughts forget it I think there are to many CSS fan boy club here even if you sprinkle gold dust on it they will trash it.


----------



## muziksculp

novaburst said:


> I think there are to many CSS fan boy club here even if you sprinkle gold dust on it they will trash it.



Yes, I agree.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

lettucehat said:


> Not that it would explain all of the demos sounding as unconvincing as they do, but was this really the case? The official demos were done one day prior to release?


I was referencing some of the user demos, but to a degree it can apply to the official demos as well... Often times they are using earlier versions of the library to create the demo, and might be extremely rused not just learning the library but also writing a piece with it. 

Sometimes people read articulations and pick what they think they want without reaching for the different tools first. As I showed with using the marcato long instead of the sustain with legato - sometimes that's actually the expressive effect that you really want, and nobody just thinks "I NEED MARCATO LEGATO HERE!" in the standard string library world.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

I do not find the violins stiff and lifeless either - even using the regular legato, although the low dynamic lack of vibrato is more of a stylistic choice - I would venture the need to adjust attack would be crucial to getting something like what I played in here to sound ideal. 

And likewise, what I've heard from some of these user demos, the attack hasn't been dampened at all so the note starts unrealistically too soon, giving off that stiff "fakeness" that is otherwise easily avoidable. 

It's nice that they include sustain articulations that have an immediate attack, often times this is hard to get right, but it's not always ideal for legato playing - and that's the FIRST THING someone will reach for when opening the library(and it's just named "Sustains + Legato")


----------



## lettucehat

novaburst said:


> Go on @muziksculp show them the ropes you can do It second thoughts forget it I think there are to many CSS fan boy club here even if you sprinkle gold dust on it they will trash it.



I thought the first quasi-sentence was sarcastic but if you're really going with the CSS fan boys line (note: I don't own CSS), consider that when CSS came out its quality was immediately apparent, nobody waited around a few days to hear just an example of its legatos sounding ok, and it hasn't really been topped by anything since. The pattern legato here looks great but other than that I'm not hearing how this isn't just a lateral or even backward move of a library, even compared to their own existing string line. I'm not a fan of coming into threads about a product and being negative if I don't like it, but come on.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Robin said:


> I played around with it a bit today as I wanted to see how well it behaves in a type of piece that I would call the "butter zone" for such a library:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I wanted to see how it holds up against my current go to library for such things (CSS), so here's the comparison:
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,




Thanks for taking the time to do this. CSS does sound very good here, tonally as well as scripting.

Given BSS will be 70% more expensive than CSS once the sale is over, it would seem you _really_ have to love the Teldex tone (or want to use SINE) to make BSS worth it.


----------



## muziksculp

I think CSS has much less number of String players, compared to BSS, two different libraries, with very different characteristics. Not just the Teledex Tone.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

muziksculp said:


> I think CSS has much less number of String players, compared to BSS, two different libraries, with very different characteristics. Not just the Teledex Tone.



Agree on the player number, disagree that they have _very_ different characteristics. Very similar amount of articulations (I think CSS may have more in fact). Either way, huge price difference. Typical OT inflated pricing though.


----------



## muziksculp

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Agree on the player number, disagree that they have _very_ different characteristics. Very similar amount of articulations (I think CSS may have more in fact). Either way, huge price difference. Typical OT inflated pricing though.



I mean sonically very different characteristics. 

I got BSS for an attractive price since I have Berlin Strings, not the steeper regular price.


----------



## JeffvR

muziksculp said:


> I think CSS has much less number of String players, compared to BSS, two different libraries, with very different characteristics. Not just the Teledex Tone.


Besides the tone, you can hear the legatos are way better in CSS right?


----------



## muziksculp

Number of String Players in BSS : 18, 16, 14, 12, 8

Number of String Players in CSS : 10, 7, 5, 6, 5

Two very different String Orchestras.


----------



## muziksculp

JeffvR said:


> Besides the tone, you can hear the legatos are way better in CSS right?



No.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

"Rapid Legato yields new levels of realism that easily surpass results from other libraries. Even the fastest melodies are now 100% playable and convincing."

Bold claims. I guess the walkthrough will prove this (though not sure why the need to put down other developers).


----------



## ProfoundSilence

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Agree on the player number, disagree that they have _very_ different characteristics. Very similar amount of articulations (I think CSS may have more in fact). Either way, huge price difference. Typical OT inflated pricing though.



having 2-3x the players is readily audible, it's not like you have to do any critical listening to hear that glaring difference. 

The only 60 piece I can think of off the top of my head is spitfire symphonic, which often gets the complaint that it's mushy and lacks clarity that SCS has.(again, because it's apples to apricots there too)

As far as "typical OT inflated pricing" how many sample libraries do you own? What are you even comparing it to? CSS has easily been the most bang for buck string library around here for quite some time(unless you count composer cloud) and it's 399 - while having less sample content and FAR LESS expenses.(how much do you think it costs to hire 65 players?) I own a lion's share of the meat and potato symphonic lines - and I'm not sure how you can come to the conclusion that it's inflated OT pricing. Spitfire symphonic strings was 799 iirc, LASS(another 60ish player library) was 999.


----------



## Tinesaeriel

Yeahhhhhhh, after listening to the noodling and some odd pieces from users here on the forums now, it's gonna be a hard pass for me, dawg. I find I'm well covered with both CSS and NSS in terms of strings; the legato on BSS just doesn't sound up to par at all, even on the cellos and violas, even though they are the loveliest instruments in the library. Sure, I'll miss RR legato, but I've gotten by without it for so long now that I don't truly need it. This library just doesn't sound good enough to my ears at all. 

I was hoping for a home run with this library, or at the very least, that it'd end up being a Junkie XL Brass situation - the Demos on the product page don't sound up to snuff, but user demos and my own noodling with the library prove its more than up to the task and then some. That doesn't sound like the case here with this library, and I can't justify spending all this money on a library that doesn't sound great out of the box already. 

If someone comes along and posts an example that blows my socks off, I'll more than gladly eat my words. But so far, that hasn't happened, so, it's a No from me.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

ALittleNightMusic said:


> (though not sure why the need to put down other developers).


were you going for ironic here?


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

ProfoundSilence said:


> As far as "typical OT inflated pricing" how many sample libraries do you own? What are you even comparing it to? CSS has easily been the most bang for buck string library around here for quite some time(unless you count composer cloud) and it's 399 - while having less sample content and FAR LESS expenses.(how much do you think it costs to hire 65 players?) I own a lion's share of the meat and potato symphonic lines - and I'm not sure how you can come to the conclusion that it's inflated OT pricing. Spitfire symphonic strings was 799 iirc, LASS(another 60ish player library) was 999.



I have plenty of libraries, including the ones you mentioned - which have a LOT more content than BSS. They also do consistent sales that significantly discount the libraries. Hence, the analysis on price vs. value. CSS also has more articulations than BSS. OT tends to price their stuff high given the market.



ProfoundSilence said:


> were you going for ironic here?



Nope. Though your reaction to my posts is ironic.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I have plenty of libraries, including the ones you mentioned - which have a LOT more content than BSS. They also do consistent sales that significantly discount the libraries. Hence, the analysis on price vs. value. CSS also has more articulations than BSS. OT tends to price their stuff high given the market.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope. Though your reaction to my posts is ironic.


Obviously this conversation is going no where... I've put down 0 developers, while you have no issue doing so - so maybe you simply don't understand what the word irony means? Glad you can reduce libraries to number of articulations as the only metric that matters, by that logic - SSS and berlin strings are clearly the most valuable given their price to articulation ratio. Who cares about dynamic layers or round robins?

Don't you think that viewpoint is absolutely absurd?


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

ProfoundSilence said:


> Obviously this conversation is going no where... I've put down 0 developers, while you have no issue doing so - so maybe you simply don't understand what the word irony means? Glad you can reduce libraries to number of articulations as the only metric that matters, by that logic - SSS and berlin strings are clearly the most valuable given their price to articulation ratio. Who cares about dynamic layers or round robins?
> 
> Don't you think that viewpoint is absolutely absurd?



Going nowhere...yet you continue?

I'm sorry I have offended the resident OT fan club here. You tend to jump in to defend OT in every thread by the way, regardless of what the criticism or feedback is. SINE? Perfect! JXL? All the articulations you could ever want! Give me a break.

I have not put down OT by calling out the high price of BSS and saying I prefer the tone of CSS. Plenty of folks in this thread have said the same, more strongly. Apparently that is offensive to you because they can do no wrong in your eyes. They put out a product. The public will react to it. Them calling out other developers in their marketing is a separate story.

And me talking about articulations is no more arbitrary than you talking about dynamic layers or round robins. That's the real irony here.

Now, perhaps you can move on from your soapbox and we can let others have a go at sharing their thoughts.


----------



## Michael Antrum

I didn’t realise Berlin Symphonic Strings was a Spitfire product.....but it seems it must be.....

But seriously guys, whilst I thought CSS sounded much nicer, it is a much smaller section, so you are bound to pick up more detail in the sound. To some extent its a bit like complaining a ten ton lorry doesn‘t corner like a Porsche.

Libraries like BSS are for those huge John Barry sweeping strings.

The problem for OT is that there are a lot of libraries that cover this ground.


----------



## ned3000

Robin said:


> I played around with it a bit today as I wanted to see how well it behaves in a type of piece that I would call the "butter zone" for such a library:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I wanted to see how it holds up against my current go to library for such things (CSS), so here's the comparison:
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,




I've been trying to find some justification for buying BSS, as it seems like a good deal already owning BS, but damn ... this is devastating. Possibly the most one-sided comparison I've ever seen here.

The CSS version sounds amazing, and BSS?


----------



## Saxer

It's incredible how effective the Sine player works! It's about 90% less CPU stressing than comparable Kontakt libraries! At least in Logic.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I'm sorry I have offended the resident OT fan club here. You tend to jump in to defend OT in every thread by the way, regardless of what the criticism or feedback is.


You hear whatever you want to hear. There is no shortage of me praising the way certain developers do things, or room tone ect - that aren't OT, likewise - there is no shortage of me jumping to the defense of nearly any developer here, including wallbank - none the less. Even when it became more popular to snub spitfire I was there defending the idea of a new player before we'd even seen it(let alone before SINE was a thing). The difference is - most people only notice it when it goes against their opinion. 




ALittleNightMusic said:


> SINE? Perfect! JXL? All the articulations you could ever want! Give me a break.



Hilariously, these are two things I've never said. In fact when people bring up articulations - I often mention missing things like double tonguing, real crescendos - ect. Also mention the fact that I'm lucky SINE cooperates with my system, as I enjoy it greatly(albiet miss many features of CAPSULE). Your attempts to strawman here are merely a projection of things you've assumed for some reason I've said.


----------



## Alex Niedt

ProfoundSilence said:


> I was referencing some of the user demos, but to a degree it can apply to the official demos as well... Often times they are using earlier versions of the library to create the demo, and might be extremely rushed not just learning the library but also writing a piece with it.


This can be true. My Arkhis and Modus demos were made with alphas, and Phoenix was a very early beta. Fun fact...for Arkhis, I didn't even have the interface and had no idea what the instrument was actually going to be like, so I just made something blindly with raw samples, and it's the first demo on the NI site, haha. BUT...the reason I jumped in and wrote with the early material is because it was so immediately inspiring (and the added time was definitely a bonus).

With that said, I did render out my BSS demo (now up on the site) with the final release version. But yeah, my general process is simultaneously learning and creating with a library while also submitting tickets for bad notes, noise, programming issues, bugs, etc. I feel like some people assume we're full-time demo composers who have a polished library to play with for a month, but this is not the case. I have a full-time tech job and fiddle with alphas/betas at night in a bedroom in my apartment, LOL. But I try my best!


----------



## lettucehat

ProfoundSilence said:


> were you going for ironic here?



Maybe you know what the word irony means, but I guess someone should point out that @ALittleNightMusic isn't a sample library developer putting down other developers. See, that would be hypocritical. But he isn't one, so it's not ironic. Honestly OT deserves a little shit for that kind of comment, it's pretty laughable besides being unnecessarily boastful.


----------



## Chungus

Michael Antrum said:


> But seriously guys, whilst I thought CSS sounded much nicer, it is a much smaller section, so you are bound to pick up more detail in the sound. To some extent its a bit like complaining a ten ton lorry doesn‘t corner like a Porsche.
> 
> Libraries like BSS are for those huge John Barry sweeping strings.
> 
> The problem for OT is that there are a lot of libraries that cover this ground.


I don't think that's the issue. OG BS has a smaller section than either, and is bumpier than even BSS.

Ultimately, my main gripe is the lack of portamento. Omitting repetitions is also something that leaves me scratching my head.


----------



## Casiquire

I don't understand comparing a small studio detailed library directly with a large room huge library. Also there's a really bumpy transition right at the beginning of the CSS demo, at least on my speakers here.

I do like CSS's phrasing a lot. But I don't think it's the right comparison


----------



## ProfoundSilence

lettucehat said:


> Maybe you know what the word irony means, but I guess someone should point out that @ALittleNightMusic isn't a sample library developer putting down other developers. See, that would be hypocritical. But he isn't one, so it's not ironic. Honestly OT deserves a little shit for that kind of comment, it's pretty laughable besides being unnecessarily boastful.




???

???


You DO realize that I don't work for OT right?


----------



## davidanthony

Robin said:


> I played around with it a bit today as I wanted to see how well it behaves in a type of piece that I would call the "butter zone" for such a library:



Thanks for posting this! Nice piece. Any chance you can provide WAVs?

A couple of the differences I am hearing.

1. There's significantly less L Channel content in the BSS example.
2. Volume levels are different between the two (CSS is 3-5 db louder in most places) 
3. Sounds like BSS has some kind of underlying compression going on from ~500hz onward that is really preventing the strings from "breathing". 

Not sure if this is Soundcloud limiting doing something funny or just differences between the libraries...

Thanks!


----------



## Michael Antrum

Chungus said:


> I don't think that's the issue. OG BS has a smaller section than either, and is bumpier than even BSS.



If by OG BS you mean the old Berlin Strings Kontakt library, then I’m confused.

I was commenting on the very nice composition posted earlier which was rendered with both CSS and Berlin Symphonic Strings.

I never mentioned Berlin Strings for Kontakt at all.....


----------



## ProfoundSilence

davidanthony said:


> 1. There's significantly less L Channel content in the BSS example.



Interestingly enough, I feel like the violins are by default a little quiet. 


My ideal balance is adding 1-2db to the violins I and II, dropping a little off the viola - leaving the celli, and adding about .75 db on the basses.


----------



## lettucehat

ProfoundSilence said:


> ???
> 
> ???
> 
> 
> You DO realize that I don't work for OT right?



Your reading comprehension is really baffling. I'm responding to your calling it ironic that he's criticizing OT's putting down of other developers' rapid legato. He isn't a developer so there's no irony to it. Not sure where it's ever implied you're involved with OT or any developer, but I look forward to your next creative reinterpretation.


----------



## Jorgakis

Puh, I don't see the section size or db level being relevant for influencing quality of the legato. Not to mention that for a larger section a legato mind sound even more diffuse and not that compact as in BSS. I think Robin's comparison makes it very clear that the legato in BSS is too fast and to equal sounding for every transition, for a piece of that style at least.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

lettucehat said:


> Your reading comprehension is really baffling. I'm responding to your calling it ironic that he's criticizing OT's putting down of other developers' rapid legato. He isn't a developer so there's no irony to it. Not sure where it's ever implied you're involved with OT or any developer, but I look forward to your next creative reinterpretation.




HAHAHAH so making a marketing claim that having RR legato is unmatched is putting other developers down?

Guess you shouldn't read any of the qoutes on literally any product.

“The sound of these virtual strings are as good as it gets,” says Phoenix. (ya know, who co-created HWS)


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Jorgakis said:


> Puh, I don't see the section size or db level being relevant for influencing quality of the legato. Not to mention that for a larger section a legato mind sound even more diffuse and not that compact as in BSS. I think Robin's comparison makes it very clear that the legato in BSS is too fast and to equal sounding for every transition, for a piece of that style at least.




This is exactly what I pointed out - that the default attack settings used do not make sense for the piece. It's a programming issue, and that most people will use the default "sustains + legato" without actually toying with anything unfortunately.


----------



## Chungus

Michael Antrum said:


> If by OG BS you mean the old Berlin Strings Kontakt library, then I’m confused.
> 
> I was commenting on the very nice composition posted earlier which was rendered with both CSS and Berlin Symphonic Strings.
> 
> I never mentioned Berlin Strings for Kontakt at all.....



It was a response to this comment:


Michael Antrum said:


> whilst I thought CSS sounded much nicer, it is a much smaller section, so you are bound to pick up more detail in the sound. To some extent its a bit like complaining a ten ton lorry doesn‘t corner like a Porsche.



This seems to say CSS sounding better than BSS is due to CSS having smaller section sizes, which I'd disagree with, arguing BS has smaller sizes than both while still having the bumpy legatos.


----------



## Bman70

Robin said:


> I played around with it a bit today as I wanted to see how well it behaves in a type of piece that I would call the "butter zone" for such a library:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I wanted to see how it holds up against my current go to library for such things (CSS), so here's the comparison:
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,




CSS is better, but I like the expansive 'IMAX' type larger than life cinema tone of BSS. I sort of wish there was a library with BSS tone but everything else CSS.


----------



## Bman70

Robin said:


> I played around with it a bit today as I wanted to see how well it behaves in a type of piece that I would call the "butter zone" for such a library:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I wanted to see how it holds up against my current go to library for such things (CSS), so here's the comparison:
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,




By the way, would it be remotely possible to share the MIDI for this demo? I so want to hear more libraries doing the butter zone


----------



## Michael Antrum

Chungus said:


> It was a response to this comment:
> 
> 
> This seems to say CSS sounding better than BSS is due to CSS having smaller section sizes, which I'd disagree with, arguing BS has smaller sizes than both while still having the bumpy legatos.



....and I’m still confused, because I never mentioned Berlin Strings at all.

You may as well say that you diasagree because Spitfire Chamber Strings has bumpy legatos,


----------



## markleake

novaburst said:


> Go on @muziksculp show them the ropes you can do It second thoughts forget it I think there are to many CSS fan boy club here even if you sprinkle gold dust on it they will trash it.


I think this is unfair and kind of missing the point.

You'll note I didn't compare BSS to CSS in my earlier post where I expressed dissatisfaction with the tone. That was deliberate, because BSS is almost double in section sizes, it's not comparing apples to apples. I know some people don't like CSS... that's OK. Even so, the comparison here really does show BSS as not standing up to CSS's strengths, nor indeed the stengths of other symphonic string libs. BSS is just not sounding like (at least in the demos given) what I'd prefer to use for this kind of emotive music -- and one could argue it really _should_ do well at this, for what it is.

I'd be interested in hearing the same comparison against other libraries, to see if I'm on/off point on this.

Anyway, ignoring CSS for a minute, I just think, compared to some of the other big symphonic string libraries, BSS has a more raw tone that doesn't work so well for me (yet). It seems to lack the emotion, and also that big cohesive feeling of depth you get with some of their symphonic competition. Again I point to SSS and CS2 as examples.

I believe SSS had a similar (sort of) problem to BSS in its earlier forms, but it was at the top dynamics, if I'm not mistaken. I think Spitfire recorded a new top dynamic with stronger vibrato to fix the lack of expressiveness at that dynamic in all the sections.

I don't know if the same is fixable for BSS, but this issue does seem to limit the library a bit currently. Not to say this is the only issue I hear in the demos either.


----------



## Michael Antrum

I do like CS2. 

When I bought it, some time ago now, I always planned to get CSS with the discount for CS2. However, somehow, I never got around to it....


----------



## Chungus

Michael Antrum said:


> ....and I’m still confused, because I never mentioned Berlin Strings at all.
> 
> You may as well say that you diasagree because Spitfire Chamber Strings has bumpy legatos,


My argument boiled right down is as followed:
- BSS has bumpier legatos than CSS.
- For BS - also by OT - it's much the same, whilst having smaller sections than CSS.
- Therefore, it's not the section sizes that make OT's legatos bumpier than CSS, but rather something OT does with their strings. Be it scripting, the way they record the transitions, or both.

I brought up BS to illustrate this point.


----------



## Sovereign

Let me just reiterate here in general that, if the criticism is valid, I believe it is important to press that issue quickly and often. It would be wrong to lull any developer into the false sense of security that their product is faultless. And there is quite a bit to complain about, already seen multiple issues. What sort of quality control is there at OT when stuff like this slips through? Ugh.


----------



## Michael Antrum

Chungus said:


> My argument boiled right down is as followed:
> - BSS has bumpier legatos than CSS.
> - For BS - also by OT - it's much the same, whilst having smaller sections than CSS.
> - Therefore, it's not the section sizes that make OT's legatos bumpier than CSS, but rather something OT does with their strings. Be it scripting, the way they record the transitions, or both.
> 
> I brought up BS to illustrate this point.



Well, after much thinking about it, I decided not to get the Berlin series during the BF sale. I already had Berlin Woodwinds, and they are great, but Capsule in Kontakt I find, ahem, to be less than ideal as a platform , and as a result use VSL woodwinds way more.

I await the Sine version of BWW with interest, I have hopes for it.

But as far as BSS are concerned, there are so many good choices out there, including the venerable Hollywood Strings - it’s getting very crowded in string world.....


----------



## borisb2

Robin said:


> I played around with it a bit today as I wanted to see how well it behaves in a type of piece that I would call the "butter zone" for such a library:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I wanted to see how it holds up against my current go to library for such things (CSS), so here's the comparison:
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,



Great piece.. is it too much to ask for a Berlin Strings version?


----------



## davidanthony

ProfoundSilence said:


> Interestingly enough, I feel like the violins are by default a little quiet.



Interesting! Does the manual talk at all about how the samples are treated as far as mixing/mastering them goes? If you're able to plop a meter/frequency analyzer on the L/R channels, do things look "right" (literally and figuratively?) 



Jorgakis said:


> Puh, I don't see the section size or db level being relevant for influencing quality of the legato.



I don't think anyone is saying it is, but at least as far as I'm concerned I like to make sure a library is both technically and sonically worthy before investing in it, so I think discussion of both sides of the coin is warranted.

My biggest disappointment is when manufacturers bake in a number of decisions that I prefer they leave for mixing / mastering. I understand it gives more in terms of instant gratification but it significantly cramps long term potential, imo. So when I hear consistently strange imaging, I want to know if that was an artistic choice by the composer, if there was something happening at the capture level (I hope not, but recording these things is really hard no matter who you are), or is there something technical going on (compression, phasing, etc.)



Sovereign said:


> Let me just reiterate here in general that, if the criticism is valid, I believe it is important to press that issue quickly and often.



Agreed! Product will only get better.


----------



## peladio

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I'm sorry I have offended the resident OT fan club here. You tend to jump in to defend OT in every thread by the way, regardless of what the criticism or feedback is. SINE? Perfect! JXL? All the articulations you could ever want!



Yeah, every big company has a resident super fan(boy) or two here who seem to post almost exclusively in that company's threads..it's supremely irritating and waste of bandwidth really..but that what's ignore function for

I'm very grateful that knowledgeable and obviously unbiased people like @Robin contribute as those posts are so much more useful..

I generally really like OT products but so far this one really doesn't seem impressive especially if you're covered for symphonic string sound which plenty of older libraries do better..


----------



## peladio

Bman70 said:


> CSS is better, but I like the expansive 'IMAX' type larger than life cinema tone of BSS. I sort of wish there was a library with BSS tone but everything else CSS.



There is - CS2 which many prefer to CSS


----------



## muziksculp

Only *BSS* VLNS 1 Sustain-Legato (Exposed Test) :


----------



## Michael Antrum

peladio said:


> There is - CS2 which many prefer to CSS



Yes, CSS is, I understand, 35 players and CS2 is 40, but it sounds like a lot more.....


----------



## Vik

JEPA said:


> 20 initial seconds, immediately voted for CSS.


Especially during the first 20 secs (or so) into these demos, the dynamic levels don't match between the two libraries: CSS, known for being a kind of dark sounding library sounds brighter then BSS – and there are other differences in how they are programmed which makes it difficult to compare, like in the ending chord. Strings often sound better in my ears when there's a more detailed 'sound image' (but still rich/lush sound), and that's often easier to achieve with a 10/7/7/6/5 (CSS) setting than with a 18/16/14/12/8 setting. 

Also, many if the differences between the two could be down to mic positions. Just using Tree mics, for instance, doesn't mean the same thing across several libraries – in some libraries, the Tree mic positions work best with a close mic, in others they seem to work perfect as they are – and so on.

And – talking about the first 20 secs: exactly at 20 seconds there's a little 5 note melody snippet which somehow has what often is described as a 'sucking' effect in the CSS track – which sounds more natural in the BSS example. I'm not saying that any of them is better than the other – I don't have BSS but I have BS and CSS, and really like both. It took a bit longer to figure out how to make BS good than it did with CSS, and even BS sounded a bit disappointing at first... I guess what I'm trying to say is only that it's hard to make any conclusions based on two short examples.


----------



## JEPA

Vik said:


> Especially during the first 20 secs (or so) into these demos, the dynamic levels don't match between the two libraries: CSS, known for being a kind of dark sounding library sounds brighter then BSS – and there are other differences in how they are programmed which makes it difficult to compare, like in the ending chord. Strings often sound better in my ears when there's a more detailed (but still rich/lush sound), and that's often easier to achieve with a 10/7/7/6/5 (CSS) setting than with a 18/16/14/12/8 setting.
> But many if the differences between the two could be down to mic positions. Just using Tree mics, for instance, doesn't mean the same thing across several libraries – in some libraries, the Tree mic positions works best with a close mic, in others it seems to work perfect as it is – and so on.
> 
> And – talking about the first 20 secs: exactly at 20 seconds there's a little 5 note melody snippet which somehow has what often is described as a 'sucking' effect in the CSS track – which sounds more natural in the BSS example. I'm not saying that any of then is better than the other – I don't have BSS but I have BS and CSS, and really like both. It took a bit longer to figure out how to make BS good than it did with CSS, and even BS sounded a bit disappointing at first... I guess what I'm trying to says only that it's hard to make any conclusions based not two short examples.


very interesting. I let my self to my ears entirely, and the sensation was nicer with CSS, for me at least.


----------



## Vik

JEPA said:


> I let my self to my ears entirely


Never trust your ears! (kidding!)
IMO the two most scientific ways to compare two libraries are either to try to make each of them as good as you possible can (and not necessarily the same way) – or two try to make them sound as similar to each other as possible. And with the latter method, it's easy to do a mistake if one is starting with something which library A handles really well, and try to copy that with library B.

There's a lot of new string libraries being released nowadays (Vista, Nashville, OT's BSS, soon Audiobro MSS, and more). I guess we'll see a lot of string library comparisons the following weeks, which will be very interesting unless one only tries to find out which of the libraries that are 'best' (as opposed to what they do best). Since I have BS, I certainly look forward to walkthroughs and more detailed examples before the BS>BSS offer expires.


----------



## alchemist

Sovereign said:


> What sort of quality control is there at OT when stuff like this slips through? Ugh.


Their QC is lacking tbh, every product I've bought I've had to waste time logging bugs, I should be on payroll at this stage lol


----------



## youngpokie

Jorgakis said:


> ...makes it very clear that the legato in BSS is too fast and to equal sounding for every transition, for a piece of that style at least.



Legato too fast - in the library that just just launched a brand new SLOW legato?

That's an incredible assessment....


----------



## AndyP

Hmmm, just going by the demos, BSS is (very surprisingly) one of the most unnatural sounding string libraries I've heard in a long time. In fact, I don't like the high strings at all, and the legatos don't excite me either. 
When I compare some libraries I have, I can't think of any reason to buy BSS.


----------



## Peter Satera

muziksculp said:


> Only *BSS* VLNS 1 Sustain-Legato (Exposed Test) :



This does sound good, much better than some people have claimed. I'm looking forward in hearing more over time and seeing the walk-throughs.


----------



## Michael Antrum

Peter Satera said:


> This does sound good, much better than some people have claimed. I'm looking forward in hearing more over time and seeing the walk-throughs.



Funnily enough, I loaded up CS2 and replicated that line. After backing off the vibrato I found that CS2 had a very similar feel/vibe. 

If you have CS2, I'd definitely double check before I splurged out on BSS.


----------



## Peter Satera

Michael Antrum said:


> Funnily enough, I loaded up CS2 and replicated that line. After backing off the vibrato I found that CS2 had a very similar feel/vibe.
> 
> If you have CS2, I'd definitely double check before I splurged out on BSS.



It's funny you say that. CS2 has been on my radar for quite some time, I am in the market for a fast playing legato.


----------



## muziksculp

Michael Antrum said:


> If you have CS2, I'd definitely double check before I splurged out on BSS.



How do you come to that conclusion so fast, given only a short demo of a legato phrase ? BSS has lots of other articulations, why all the rushed judgements of BSS on this forum ?


----------



## Peter Satera

muziksculp said:


> How do you come to that conclusion so fast, given only a short demo of a legato phrase ? BSS has lots of other articulations, why all the rushed judgements of BSS on this forum ?



Do you have JXL Brass Muziksculp? Wondering if this feels like 'JXL Strings? and sits well with it' Do we still think JXL Strings is a possibility?


----------



## Casiquire

Chungus said:


> My argument boiled right down is as followed:
> - BSS has bumpier legatos than CSS.
> - For BS - also by OT - it's much the same, whilst having smaller sections than CSS.
> - Therefore, it's not the section sizes that make OT's legatos bumpier than CSS, but rather something OT does with their strings. Be it scripting, the way they record the transitions, or both.
> 
> I brought up BS to illustrate this point.


In the comparison demo, i didn't hear a single bump in BSS that was even close to bumping into Bumpie McBumperson coming down from Mount Bumpus in CSS at 0:10. There are a couple other big ones right in the intro too. That demo actually exposed to me how flawed CSS's reputation for smoothness is. Not that BSS is perfect of course; it's pretty bad right at 0:21. But in no way is the smoothness clearly superior in one over the other with those flaws


----------



## muziksculp

Peter Satera said:


> Do you have JXL Brass Muziksculp? Wondering if this feels like 'JXL Strings? and sits well with it' Do we still think JXL Strings is a possibility?



Hi @Peter Satera ,

No, I don't have JXL Brass, and I don't know what JXL Strings are supposed to sound like, but this is surely *Berlin Symphonic Strings*, not JXL Strings.  

Maybe they will release JXL Strings library in the future, why not.


----------



## Peter Satera

muziksculp said:


> Hi @Peter Satera ,
> 
> No, I don't have JXL Brass, and I don't know what JXL Strings are supposed to sound like, but this is surely *Berlin Symphonic Strings*, not JXL Strings.
> 
> Maybe they will release JXL Strings library in the future, why not.



Apologies, that was poorly worded. Thanks for letting me know!  I suppose I was meaning do we all think JXL Strings is still likely with symphonic out?


----------



## muziksculp

Peter Satera said:


> Apologies, that was poorly worded. Thanks for letting me know!  I suppose I was meaning do we all think JXL Strings is still likely with symphonic out?





Peter Satera said:


> Apologies, that was poorly worded. Thanks for letting me know!  I suppose I was meaning do we all think JXL Strings is still likely with symphonic out?



No applogies needed, I understood what you were asking, but wanted to make sure we are discussing BSS here, not JXL Strings.

If Junkie-XL is planning to release a Strings Library with OT, then that would be very interesting, I wonder how many String Players he needs for his Strings Library ? or what would make it unique ?


----------



## Michael Antrum

muziksculp said:


> How do you come to that conclusion so fast, given only a short demo of a legato phrase ? BSS has lots of other articulations, why all the rushed judgements of BSS on this forum ?



I said you should double check, as the feel/vibe seems quite similar. I hardly think that's a criticism.....

You seem quite agitated by other people's caution, which when you are talking about a library with no returns, no refunds and no re-sale is not an unreasonable tack to take......


----------



## Zero&One

I’m loving it. Really fun to play with. Articulation maps setup in no time. Nice selection of mics, something I normally find are bloat ware.
Sustains are just a joy to noodle with.
Sine hasn’t shit itself once, and for me that’s huge.
And did I mention it’s fun to use?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Peter Satera said:


> Apologies, that was poorly worded. Thanks for letting me know!  I suppose I was meaning do we all think JXL Strings is still likely with symphonic out?


I actually have an example on the official announcement thread - the articulations line up perfectly with JXL brass.


----------



## muziksculp

ka00 said:


> But if you bought it on release day before walkthroughs are posted, doesn’t that indicate that some conclusions about whether to buy it or not can actually happen pretty quickly? Presumably you made some sort of quick judgement yourself, no?



Yes, because I instantly loved what I heard in the Youtube presentations, plus I always wished OT would make a larger Strings Section Library than their Berlin Strings, I love the Teledex Stage sound, and a big fan of using SINE. Plus, I got a special discount because I own Berlin Strings. I'm very happy I purchased BSS, and loving the library so far. I have a lot of discovering to do, lots of ways to use the library, so it does take some time to get to know it well. 

I think comments about it from people who don't have it yet, should be carefully evaluated. BSS is NOT CS2. Very different libraries. I have CS2.


----------



## muziksculp

ProfoundSilence said:


> I actually have an example on the official announcement thread - the articulations line up perfectly with JXL brass.



Interesting ! 

So, could this imply that BSS was originally intended to be Junkie XL-Strings ?


----------



## Bman70

It occurs to me looking at these ensemble sizes, that stacking CSS and CS2 together would make a power-orchestra just slightly bigger than BSS. The room sound might become obtrusive though.. because adding two rooms together isn't the same as a huge orchestra in one room. 


BSS: Vln 1 18, Vln2 16, Vla 14, Cl 12, Bs 8

CSS: Vln1 10, Vln2 7, Vla 7, Cl 6, Bs 5

CS2: Vln1 12, Vln2 8, Vla 7, Cl 7, Bs 6


----------



## Nemesis

Robin said:


> I played around with it a bit today as I wanted to see how well it behaves in a type of piece that I would call the "butter zone" for such a library:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I wanted to see how it holds up against my current go to library for such things (CSS), so here's the comparison:
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,




Nice demo, thanks. Of the two CSS sounds better. But the hiss in the recording is awful! Does the hiss really come from the CSS recordings? Sounds almost like a tape recording...


----------



## Kent

Nemesis said:


> Nice demo, thanks. Of the two CSS sounds better. But the hiss in the recording is awful! Does the hiss really come from the CSS recordings? Sounds almost like a tape recording...


CSS and co. are very hissy; you may be hearing that. Small (?) price to pay for an otherwise incredibly-consistent series.






CSSS noisy?


Hey! Just got CSSS so not very familiar yet. I’m writing some minimalist piano cues with solo strings from CSSS Every time a CSSS instrument comes in, there’s quite a lot of noise to a point where it’s annoying me Am I doing something wrong here or are they noisy? Thanks! (With noise I mean...




vi-control.net


----------



## JohnBMears

To those who have BSS already and also own HWS. It sounds like HWS put into a Teldex IR gets you most of the way to BSS. Is this accurate to your ears?


----------



## muziksculp

*EW-Hollywood Strings :*

16 1st Violins (9/7 divisi mode)
14 2nd Violins (8/6 divisi mode)
10 Violas (6/4 divisi mode)
10 Celli (6/4 divisi mode)
7 Basses (4/3 divisi mode)
*TOTAL :* 57 String Players

*OT-Berlin Symphonic Strings :*

18 1st Violins
16 2nd Violins
14 Violas
12 Celli
8 Basses 
*TOTAL :* 68 String Players


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Bman70 said:


> It occurs to me looking at these ensemble sizes, that stacking CSS and CS2 together would make a power-orchestra just slightly bigger than BSS. The room sound might become obtrusive though.. because adding two rooms together isn't the same as a huge orchestra in one room.
> 
> 
> BSS: Vln 1 18, Vln2 16, Vla 14, Cl 12, Bs 8
> 
> CSS: Vln1 10, Vln2 7, Vla 7, Cl 6, Bs 5
> 
> CS2: Vln1 12, Vln2 8, Vla 7, Cl 7, Bs 6




This isn't the case any more than playing 18 solo violin patches at the same time to make section of 18 violins. 

the more likely scenario will be that CSS would simply sound like closer/section mics of cs2.


----------



## jbuhler

There's definitely some bumpiness in crossing dynamic layers that means you have to take special care in constructing legato lines. And the bumpiness isn't consistent across the instruments either but each note behaves a bit differently, which makes it a bit of a pain to program. Here’s one that gave me real fits.



I haven't found the library sounding odd in general, and I like BSS's basic sonic profile, even the violins! And I like the higher violins better than the lower ones, so go figure!

BSS has got a good selection of shorts, but a bit skimpy on the RRs, especially noticeable on the the short marcatos in the second violins. The pattern legato is decent, so long as the pattern is not too fast—about a triplet at moderate tempo is about as fast as I could reliably get it to go and like the results. This will help render some of those ubiquitous inner part legato accompaniment patterns but it's not yet the definitive solution to that problem. Still, @ProfoundSilence has some excellent examples of adding the pattern legato transitions to the marcatos that are pretty ear opening for repeated intervals in more exposed parts. I haven't quite figured out how to do that in practice (I can select the legato for the marcato articulation by hand and play it, but am not sure how to program it to ensure it’s rendered in playback, and I haven't found any documentation on how that feature works), but the examples he posted shows that more can be got out of these legato transitions than the three default legatos allow.

Compared to SSS, BSS has things it does better and things it does worse; mostly they offer a lot of the same functionality. It's hard to say that you "need" both, unless you do a lot of very large orchestra scoring, though it's nice to have both. The legato in SSS holds up remarkably well even when fed midi from passages composed for BSS. And on the whole I prefer it, especially on slow expressive lines. (It helps that SSS has portamento and that unlike many here I very much like the sound of SF legato when it works.) Leisurely legato back and forth inner parts however clearly favors BSS. The shorts for both libraries are good and complementary. Meaning they each render good but quite different performances. SSS has more of pretty much everything though—a lot more articulations, generally more RRs, better control of vibrato, etc. But currently BSS has more mics, so until the expansion is available again for SSS, that will be a consideration for those who like their mic arrays. 

I find SSS much faster to program. I don’t use SSS much, about the same as Berlin Strings, so it’s not a question of familiarity, except that I use SCS all the time and there is a lot of overlap in the basic programming between SCS and SSS. And I also find BS relatively slow to program. BSS is quite a lot faster to program than BS, and programming should speed up with BSS as i use it more and get used to its Sine implementation. I much prefer Sine to Capsule and can hardly wait until BS is ported. In any case, if I had to choose, and BSS and SSS were offered for roughly the same price (e.g., when SSS is on sale at 40% off), I would opt for SSS, but I'm very happy to have both.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

jbuhler said:


> Still, @ProfoundSilence has some excellent examples of adding the pattern legato transitions to the marcatos that are pretty ear opening for repeated intervals in more exposed parts. I haven't quite figured out how to do that in practice (I can select the legato for the marcato articulation by hand and play it, but am not sure how to program it to ensure it’s rendered in playback, and I haven't found any documentation on how that feature works), but the examples he posted shows that more can be got out of these legato transitions than the three default legatos allow.



Since it's not midi assignable yet - you just drag another marcato articulation and add legato to it if you want to keep a version without legato on it. Duplicating sample data within 1 instance of SINE does not increase ram requirement. 

As far as the regular "Sustains + LEGATO" patch, it's using the immediate sustains and really needs the attack backed off to sound correct, and sometimes I back the legato volume down a db or so with any library that lets me....


----------



## muziksculp

Here is a rough take of the *BSS* Celli Shorts, Played in real time, no midi or CC tweaking. (Spicc + Stacc) Vel-Xfade


----------



## novaburst

markleake said:


> comparison here really does show BSS as not standing up to CSS's strengths,



The comparison is a joke, it's easy to see the user did not play BSS the user just allowed BSS to ride over recorded notes, but when it came to CSS the user played the notes in realtime, and it's easy to tell, 

The one that is played in real time always has the advantage


----------



## Robin

novaburst said:


> The comparison is a joke, it's easy to see the user did not play BSS the user just allowed BSS to ride over recorded notes, but when it came to CSS the user played the notes in realtime, and it's easy to tell,
> 
> The one that is played in real time always has the advantage



The user didn't play in either of the two. The user applied the same kind of treatment to both imported midi files by adding cc curves after and compensating for the legato delay according to transition lengths. The user even applied different cc curves to give each library the best chance to shine.

PS: The user invested about the same amount of time for each.


----------



## Sovereign

Vik said:


> Never trust your ears! (kidding!)
> IMO the two most scientific ways to compare two libraries are either to try to make each of them as good as you possible can (and not necessarily the same way) – or two try to make them sound as similar to each other as possible.


Ehm, how about just taking a REAL recording of a string orchestra and seeing how close you can get to that, eh?


novaburst said:


> The comparison is a joke


Don't insult Robin like that.


----------



## Michael Antrum

Robin said:


> The user didn't play in either of the two. The user applied the same kind of treatment to both imported midi files by adding cc curves after and compensating for the legato delay according to transition lengths. The user even applied different cc curves to give each library the best chance to shine.



Can we please stop it with your hate facts, and get back to more unsubstantiated speculation please?

BTW way Robin, I thought that a very nice arrangement. It's early morning here, and it has set the tone for the day quite wonderfully......


----------



## Sovereign

jbuhler said:


> adding the pattern legato transitions to the marcatos that are pretty ear opening for repeated intervals in more exposed parts. I haven't quite figured out how to do that in practice


Load the articulation, make sure it is actively selected, go to the leg tab at the bottom right, activate legato and select the type of transition.


----------



## muziksculp

Zero&One said:


> Sustains are just a joy to noodle with.



Yes, Here is a short chord progression using BSS VLNS-1 soft-sustains


----------



## novaburst

Sovereign said:


> Ehm, how about just taking a REAL recording of a string orchestra and seeing how close you can get to that, eh?
> 
> Don't insult Robin like that.



Hi @Sovereign it was not meant as an insult it's simply what I herd when I listened. 

There is also no hate bashing from me so I tell you what, I will withdraw my self from this thread as its quite easy to misunderstand post 

All the best


----------



## JohannesR

Robin said:


> I see it filling up some holes in my template like the RR legatos


Thanks for doing this! The RR legatos are the only thing that appeals to me. I don’t have any libraries that pull it off convincingly. How do you find these patches? Would be nice to hear your thoughts. Audiobro’s Modern Strings seems to offer something similar.


----------



## Saxer

I tried the RR legatos (1st Violin only, didn't have much time) but it didn't work very good. Sound is ok but timing is uneven. Quantized even eights (c-e-c-e-c-e) don't have a constant length.


----------



## Robin

Thanks for all your comments on the comparison and after catching up with the thread, I'll try to answer the questions that came up. 

Just to be clear here as I said above, I tried to give each library the best chance to shine within a reasonable timeframe. I paid for both libraries so it wouldn't make any sense to deliberately make one of the demos worse than the other. I probably could have ridden the CC's to maticulously counteract every transition bump in BSS but to be honest, I don't feel like the library should require to do that. Having said that, also CSS has a few bumpy legato transitions here and there which I also didn't bother to counteract in this demo. But yes, as has already been mentioned, BSS needs a bit more quality control on a few issues.

Yes, CSS comes with a lot of noise, especially when you're trying to push the air a bit (as I usually do to counteract the rather dark tone of the library). If you manage to capture a usable noise profile (from the pizzicato tails) you can reduce it a bit with proper tools but that also very often kills the air. I didn't bother to do any of that on the files here as I didn't want to invest too much time.

I'm not going to render it with any other library as that wasn't the point for me. I simply wanted to see how it holds up against my standard library and not create a shoot-out. My presumption from experience with BS is that it will most likely sound rather similar to BSS, just smaller. I also always found BS to be a bit sterile and lifeless.

BSS will definitely find a spot in my template, the shorts are powerful and substantial and and it should do pretty well in more "epic" music. For expressive writing, it unfortunately doesn't hold up in an exposed piece. But I can definitely see it adding some substance to high soaring violin lines in a tutti context (things like E.T. main theme). Also the celli have a very nice and expressive tone so I can see them to be useful in that regard. With the Basses of CSS often being a problem in the mix, the balls of the BSS basses could definitely come in handy to add that low substance warmth when needed.

The RR legatos are as everything much better in the violas/celli than in the violins. I used them in the second half of that piece in the celli arpeggios where they do work pretty well. Haven't tried yet how they work in a soft exposed measured trill kind of scenario, though.

And lastly, here are the files as uncompressed WAV: 









Mixdown


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com





Personally, I find that 299 is a fair price for what you get with BSS but I definitely wouldn't spend 549 on it.

Cheers


----------



## Al Maurice

It's like comparing apple and oranges.

The number of players is immaterial, you can have lots of players and end up with a mushy and subdued sonic quality. Or fewer players more spaced out in a larger auditorium, with a deeper more mellow quality that brings out the sound of the room, whilst being able to discern the various dynamic changes and discern the dynamics of the playing as the bow glides or bounces across the string.

So it all depends on what your needs are, CSS can create hugely expressive scalic lines, but when you want something that changes in pace with lots of rythmic elements the illusion kind of shatters.

Also legato on string instruments is just a playing style, there are plenty of ways to obtain a similar result depending on pace and tempi, register and dynamic changes. Just like stacatto -- I'm sure we'll all give a different definition of what we mean by that too.


----------



## RogiervG

CSS blows BSS out of the water, especially considering the regular pricing.
But even at the intro price, BSS is too pricy for what it offers sonically.


Off topic (little rant, just read it, please don't respond to this, because i don't want to start a long offtopic discussion):
IMHO, it's typical OT, and they live in the elite world (price wise), still too high priced with every berlin product. That sale they did with BF, that should be their regular prices.. (and ditch the addons asap, just one string lib, one wood, one brass etc, or with sine, individual patches if one needs it.). I mean it's still (incl. vat) 1600 bucks for the who thing with the BF sale price! Spitfire and VSL as direct competitive products are also around that pricepoint for the bundle at regular pricing (incl. vat). If i take compared offer from OT, same kind of instruments/articulations, full orchestra, it costs over 4500 bucks (excluding vat!) and it gets worse if you add some more addons they have. Major difference, way too much imho. And the series are not bug/problem free either, after all these years, but the pricing remains stale.


----------



## Chungus

Casiquire said:


> In the comparison demo, i didn't hear a single bump in BSS that was even close to bumping into Bumpie McBumperson coming down from Mount Bumpus in CSS at 0:10. There are a couple other big ones right in the intro too. That demo actually exposed to me how flawed CSS's reputation for smoothness is. Not that BSS is perfect of course; it's pretty bad right at 0:21. But in no way is the smoothness clearly superior in one over the other with those flaws


I do agree that CSS isn't perfect across the board in the example, but over-all I still preferred it over BSS.

With that said, I do think that BSS has a leg up over CSS in terms of tone. Teldex is such a nice space. Really, that's kinda what frustrates me about this release - I wish I could like it. If the library just had portamento transitions, I'd probably have bought it in spite of any bumpy legatos.


----------



## JohannesR

Saxer said:


> I tried the RR legatos (1st Violin only, didn't have much time) but it didn't work very good. Sound is ok but timing is uneven. Quantized even eights (c-e-c-e-c-e) don't have a constant length.


Oh...guess I’ll have to wait for Audiobro’s take on it then...


----------



## ProfoundSilence

RogiervG said:


> CCS blows BSS out of the water, especially considering the regular pricing.
> But even at the intro price, BSS is too pricy for what it offers sonically.
> 
> 
> Off topic (little rant, just read it, please don't respond to this, because i don't want to start a long offtopic discussion):
> IMHO, it's typical OT, and they live in the elite world (price wise), still too high priced with every berlin product. That sale they did with BF, that should be their regular prices.. (and ditch the addons asap, just one string lib, one wood, one brass etc, or with sine, individual patches if one needs it.). I mean it's still (incl. vat) 1600 bucks for the who thing with the BF sale price! Spitfire and VSL as direct competitive products are also around that pricepoint for the bundle at regular pricing (incl. vat). If i take compared offer from OT, same kind of instruments/articulations, full orchestra, it costs over 4500 bucks (excluding vat!) and it gets worse if you add some more addons they have. Major difference, way too much imho. And the series are not bug/problem free either, after all these years, but the pricing remains stale.



Let me offer you some advice, if you don't want what you say to be discussed, don't post it on a discussion forum. Would be like dancing on a bonfire and asking for it not to catch you on fire

You can cool it with whatever ruling class fantasy vision you have of sample library developers, orchestral tools is not the man keeping you down, if their products are out of reach for you that does not make them bad people, just don't buy their products.

That's capitalism, if OT's business model doesn't work they go out of business. If other people buy their products it doesn't hurt you. You've been wronged by 0 people.


----------



## JTB

ProfoundSilence said:


> Let me offer you some advice, if you don't want what you say to be discussed, don't post it on a discussion forum. Would be like dancing on a bonfire and asking for it not to catch you on fire
> 
> You can cool it with whatever ruling class fantasy vision you have of sample library developers, orchestral tools is not the man keeping you down, if their products are out of reach for you that does not make them bad people, just don't buy their products.
> 
> That's capitalism, if OT's business model doesn't work they go out of business. If other people buy their products it doesn't hurt you. You've been wronged by 0 people.


The reason, IMO, he didn't want it to be disgust, is that it was more aimed at being an opinion that he/she has every right to express. I took it as a 'buyer beware' sort of post. Because sometimes I feel like these companies are just milking us for every cent they can. Preying on the weak. Capitalising on consumerism. This release really does suggest that. Zero innovation, sub-par, stock string library at best.


----------



## styledelk

... that they spent considerable resources and passion making.
It’s absurd to see it as just a consumerist cash grab.


----------



## MGdepp

Saxer said:


> I tried the RR legatos (1st Violin only, didn't have much time) but it didn't work very good. Sound is ok but timing is uneven. Quantized even eights (c-e-c-e-c-e) don't have a constant length.


Yes, that is what I noticed as well. The RR Legato certainly requires a lot of further tuning. I generally applaud OT for trying to create very forward-thinking patches like this one and others. But in the other hand, they also released quite a lot of patches like that in a pretty unusable state and then did not follow trough to improve them. I am thinking of those playable glissandi (only for violins, I believe) in Berlin Strings Main!


----------



## Andrajas

This must be the release from OT with most concerns? They always seem to release top quality but reading the posts here makes me question a lot of this product.


----------



## Zero&One

Must be quiet in that woodwind thread.

I'm still having fun!
And I wrote this for the thread. It's a little ditty we use in the UK... those who know know


----------



## Noeticus

When people complain about the cost of a library, I think about how affordable the library is compared to what it would have cost me to record and produce the library myself. 

But then, ironically, when people complain about the cost of a library, I also think about how overpriced some of them are considering how well off these companies are now because of their sometimes high pricing. 

The truth is... I still cannot find a string library with enough articulations, and dynamics and, and.... Damn it, I want every string glissandi, and string cluster glissandi, imaginable etc....


----------



## RogiervG

ProfoundSilence said:


> Let me offer you some advice, if you don't want what you say to be discussed, don't post it on a discussion forum. Would be like dancing on a bonfire and asking for it not to catch you on fire
> 
> You can cool it with whatever ruling class fantasy vision you have of sample library developers, orchestral tools is not the man keeping you down, if their products are out of reach for you that does not make them bad people, just don't buy their products.
> 
> That's capitalism, if OT's business model doesn't work they go out of business. If other people buy their products it doesn't hurt you. You've been wronged by 0 people.


You took it the wrong way.. 
JTB is spot on with my intention of the off topic part i wrote.
and i leave it at that..


Anyway.. My main argument was about the first two lines i wrote. (the on topic part).


----------



## muziksculp

RogiervG said:


> CCS blows BSS out of the water


No, It doesn't . 

If you know how to use SINE properly, and have BSS you can make sounds that CSS can't even get close to.


----------



## RogiervG

muziksculp said:


> No, It doesn't .


if you refer to accidentally writing CCS instead of CSS, you are right.. 
If not.. well, than we agree to disagree


----------



## Ashermusic

We like what we like, don't what we don't. I will never understand why that isn't just obvious.


----------



## muziksculp

RogiervG said:


> if you refer to accidentally writing CCS instead of CSS, you are right..
> If not.. well, than we agree to disagree



Oh...sorry, these letters look so close to CSS, So... what is CCS ?


----------



## RogiervG

Ashermusic said:


> We like what we like, don't what we don't. I will never understand why that isn't just obvious.


But with that logic, many forum threads become obsolete/void.. it's a human thing to wanting to have discussions, votes, informing with/towards other people. Hence the populartity of social media and such. (forums are also social media in a sense)
Heck, you posting here, means you want to spread your thoughts and let other read it.. and perhaps (like me) react.


----------



## RogiervG

muziksculp said:


> Oh...sorry, these letters look so close to CSS, So... what is CCS ?


I dunno :-P Cinematic Captured Strings? (new string library from Alex?)
It was a writing mistake on my part..
Thanks you for bringing the error to my attention.


----------



## Ashermusic

RogiervG said:


> But with that logic, many forum threads become obsolete/void.. it's a human thing to wanting to have discussions, votes, informing with/towards other people. Hence the populartity of social media and such. (forums are also social media in a sense)
> Heck, you posting here, means you want to spread your thoughts and let other read it.. and perhaps (like me) react.




No, we can discuss what we SPECIFICALLY we like or don't like about the different libraries, rather than make blanket subjective evaluative statements. That's productive. the other is just a waste of bandwidth.

When I commented on the freebie patch of Vista, I said I didn't like it because was too noisy and too much vibrato. When I commented on the reasons why I like Afflatus, I was specific.


----------



## RogiervG

Ashermusic said:


> That's productive. the other is just a waste of bandwidth.



How about fun, enjoyment, just for pleasure.. (or in some cases, a relieve/venting)
not everything has to be productive. I would say: lighten up a bit.. in case you aren't (not sure). 
And it's not much waste of bandwith either. (just a few KB here and there)


----------



## Ashermusic

RogiervG said:


> How about fun, enjoyment, just for pleasure..
> not everything has to be productive. I would say: lighten up a bit..
> And it's not much waste of bandwith either. (just a few KB here and there)




What is "fun" or enjoyable of pleasant about a person saying that one blows the other out of the water and then someone replying, no it doesn't.

This is your idea of fun, enjoyment, and pleasure? Even in the pandemic, there ought to be more fun stuff than that.


----------



## RogiervG

Ashermusic said:


> What is "fun" or enjoyable of pleasant about a person saying that one blows the other out of the water and then someone replying, no it doesn't.
> 
> This is your idea of fun, enjoyment, and pleasure? Even in the pandemic, there ought to be more fun stuff than that.



The pandemic is no part here.. this is people interacting on a forum about music related stuff.

And sometimes a statement and counter statement, can lead into a good discussion about the why and why not. (you got to start somewhere, somehow: a trigger of sorts)

I like to trigger people at times with short statements.


----------



## muziksculp

Ashermusic said:


> What is "fun" or enjoyable of pleasant about a person saying that one blows the other out of the water and then someone replying, no it doesn't.



Hi @Ashermusic ,

I would have ignored his comment, and not bothered replying, but I just felt given I'm the OP of this thread, and he seems to be a CSS-Fanboy. It might be worth replying to his post, which imho. made no sense to me, and came across as arrogant, and kind of vulgar, especially given he doesn't have BSS. So, I don't even know on what basis he is making these comments.

I will leave it at that.


----------



## muziksculp

RogiervG said:


> I like to trigger people at times with short statements.



 ... And, You are good at it. Let's just have fun !


----------



## Ihnoc

Can anyone tell me whether, as with Berlin Strings, Berlin Symphonic Strings has a switch to emulate con sordino? Is it mapped to a MIDI CC?


----------



## shponglefan

Ashermusic said:


> What is "fun" or enjoyable of pleasant about a person saying that one blows the other out of the water and then someone replying, no it doesn't.
> 
> This is your idea of fun, enjoyment, and pleasure? Even in the pandemic, there ought to be more fun stuff than that.


----------



## Drumdude2112

Wow all this drama , you'd think it's a spitfire thread lol 😂


----------



## muziksculp

Ihnoc said:


> Can anyone tell me whether, as with Berlin Strings, Berlin Symphonic Strings has a switch to emulate con sordino? Is it mapped to a MIDI CC?



I don't think there is a Sordino Switch option for BSS, similar to the one in Berlin Strings.

Maybe OT can add a Sordino feature to BSS in the future.


----------



## RogiervG

Drumdude2112 said:


> Wow all this drama , you'd think it's a spitfire thread lol 😂






shponglefan said:


>



@Ashermusic:
See.. sometimes a trigger leads to a joyful atmosphere with funny reactions 
Nobody get hurt, no intentions towards that either.. And we can ofcourse discuss indepth, productive too if need be. Sure.

In case you might wonder: i do like you as a person, fellow community member and musician and your input if often very good. Cheers


----------



## davidanthony

Robin said:


> files



Thank you for posting these! Nice to hear without Soundcloud gain matching getting in the way.

Sonically, I like the underlying timbre of BSS. But there is some high frequency shelving in BSS that compromises the overall sense of "sparkle". I don't hear the same in CSS, so I'm guessing it wasn't a creative decision on your part.

BSS generally feels quite compressed in the 1k-10k range, too, which leads it to feel a little bit less "exciting" compared to CSS (and yes, I gain matched).

So my question is are there house "curves" that can be manipulated in SINE? Because I think I do like what's underneath, but need to have the ability to let it shine a bit.



styledelk said:


> ... that they spent considerable resources and passion making.



I think this juxtaposition of resources and passion may be part of what puts people off: plenty of evidence of OT spending considerable resources (that premiere video probably cost in the neighborhood of 10k USD), but a guy wearing a chunky panda dial watch reading scripted lines into the camera doesn't exactly scream passion to me... It does say "we're trying to position ourselves as a premium brand." Same with their pricing. Then release software with obvious bugs... it feels like style over substance. I don't think they're releasing this with bad intent at all, but I do think their priorities RE: marketing vs. QC may need some recalibrating.


----------



## Jett Hitt

RogiervG said:


> CSS blows BSS out of the water, especially considering the regular pricing.
> But even at the intro price, BSS is too pricy for what it offers sonically.
> 
> 
> Off topic (little rant, just read it, please don't respond to this, because i don't want to start a long offtopic discussion):
> IMHO, it's typical OT, and they live in the elite world (price wise), still too high priced with every berlin product. That sale they did with BF, that should be their regular prices.. (and ditch the addons asap, just one string lib, one wood, one brass etc, or with sine, individual patches if one needs it.). I mean it's still (incl. vat) 1600 bucks for the who thing with the BF sale price! Spitfire and VSL as direct competitive products are also around that pricepoint for the bundle at regular pricing (incl. vat). If i take compared offer from OT, same kind of instruments/articulations, full orchestra, it costs over 4500 bucks (excluding vat!) and it gets worse if you add some more addons they have. Major difference, way too much imho. And the series are not bug/problem free either, after all these years, but the pricing remains stale.



Personally, I think this is spot-on. I own Berlin Strings, and I love it, but the price point is pretty absurd. If you buy Berlin Strings and all of the add-ons, you're looking at $2150 just for the strings. And this library isn't a spring chicken by any means. OT makes some great products, but they are selling them at a premium. CSS, on the other hand, makes some pretty good stuff, too, and you can own all of what they currently offer for less than the basic version of just Berlin Strings (when you factor in the loyalty discounts). It's pretty hard to justify the OT cost when the CSS arguably competes for a fraction of the money.

I really like OT's libraries. I like the sound. I was pretty excited when I heard about the announcement of BSS, and I was rather shocked when I heard the demos and did not immediately think, "Oh my god I've got to have that." To me, it speaks volumes that a good bit of the discussion here is about whether BSS sounds as good as CSS when its sale price is more than CSS's regular price. I really liked the low-end sound of BSS, and there is no doubt that it would be a nice addition to my toolbox. At the end of the day, however, do I really want to spend that much on a three-piece socket set when I could have a 50 piece for the same money?


----------



## shawnsingh

Do we all at least agree that it's not as simple as "good" or "bad"? There's different aspects like tone quality, mixing features, articulation choices, playability, quality of the sampling and editing, etc. A person's workflow, the genres they focus on, what they think is important in a library - can all shape their opinion of how "good" a library is.


----------



## muziksculp

I think if BSS was a $199. Symphonic Strings Library, You would see less of these CSS fan-boy comments taking a jab at BSS.


----------



## szczaw

OT seems to have technological advantage. Mic merging is unique to Sine. What good are libraries with dozens of mics if your system can't handle the load ?


----------



## Vladimir Bulaev

muziksculp said:


> I think if BSS was a $199. Symphonic Strings Library, You would see less of these CSS fan-boy comments taking a jab at BSS.


Moreover, if there wasn't this damned "CSS", then there wouldn't be any fans at all and there would be no one to beat "BSS"!


----------



## muziksculp

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> Moreover, if there wasn't this damned "CSS", then there wouldn't be any fans at all and there would be no one to beat "BSS"!



Naaah... and if BSS was $199. a lot of these CSS-Fan comments about BSS would be very different.


----------



## artomatic

I'm in agreement with those who like the violas all the way down to the basses.
The violins, however are not in the same league.
Yes, I bought this library on impulse.


----------



## muziksculp

artomatic said:


> I'm in agreement with those who like the violas all the way down to the basses.
> The violins, however are not in the same league.
> Yes, I bought this library on impulse.



Can you be a bit more specific as to what you feel the BSS-Violins seem to be lacking at, compared to the Violas, Celli, and Basses ?


----------



## dzilizzi

I'm still trying to figure out why people like CSS. I heard Robin's BSS piece and thought, that doesn't sound so good. Then listened to the CSS version and thought, that doesn't sound good either. 

Still thinking about BSS. I've had mixed results with Sine. The current version has been more stable. But Cubase was still freezing a lot with it loaded. And no ProTools version. 

I still have time to think about it. I'm waiting for the walkthroughs. And while I'm waiting, I'm going to totally ignore the fact that Audiobro and Performance Samples exist.


----------



## prodigalson

I haven’t had the chance to use BSS in the heat of battle so my opinion may change but on noodling around I can already tell that legato is objectively far beyond Berlin Strings which was already the weak link in my Teldex based template.

it’s a bit silly, IMO, to compare this to CSS and declare it a dud purely because it’s legato is potentially inferior when virtually every library has inferior legato and CSS comes with its own quirks. If your sole criterion for assessing a Library is whether it’s legato is on par with CSS then you’re always going to be disappointed and should just continue to only use CSS.

If your criteria are broader than that and have a teldex based template and/or place value in a strings library recorded there then this library I think is well worth the money.

I have the entire Berlin orchestra and from what I can tell, this is the smoothest legato I’ve heard from OT.

There are a few bugs here and there but happy customer here so far


----------



## Vik

Sovereign said:


> Ehm, how about just taking a REAL recording of a string orchestra and seeing how close you can get to that, eh?


Sure – that's useful, of course, But if the goal is to compare two libraries, the one which may be best at emulating one specific recording may not be the library that's best or even generally best for you – it's just best at emulating that recording... maybe because of a similar room tone, same sections sizes, preamps, mics, mic positions and what not.


----------



## Vik

artomatic said:


> I'm in agreement with those who like the violas all the way down to the basses.
> The violins, however are not in the same league.


If that's correct, that's clearly an argument for a model where we can choose which of the sections we want to buy. I wish all companies would do that.


----------



## Marsen

dzilizzi said:


> I'm still trying to figure out why people like CSS. I heard Robin's BSS piece and thought, that doesn't sound so good. Then listened to the CSS version and thought, that doesn't sound good either.


Same here.
Didn't liked both versions.


----------



## muziksculp

prodigalson said:


> I haven’t had the chance to use BSS in the heat of battle so my opinion may change but on noodling around I can already tell that legato is objectively far beyond Berlin Strings which was already the weak link in my Teldex based template.
> 
> it’s a bit silly, IMO, to compare this to CSS and declare it a dud purely because it’s legato is potentially inferior when virtually every library has inferior legato and CSS comes with its own quirks. If your sole criterion for assessing a Library is whether it’s legato is on par with CSS then you’re always going to be disappointed and should just continue to only use CSS.
> 
> If your criteria are broader than that and have a teldex based template and/or place value in a strings library recorded there then this library I think is well worth the money.
> 
> I have the entire Berlin orchestra and from what I can tell, this is the smoothest legato I’ve heard from OT.
> 
> There are a few bugs here and there but happy customer here so far



BSS has wonderful Legatos, and three flavors to choose from, depending on what you need them for. CSS doesn't have that kind of legato feature. You can also control the volume of the legato transitions. Also speed-zone option for the different legato options. (I need to check what this does in the User's Manual), although I can't seem to find a BSS user's manual I can download. Maybe I'm missing it ? or they haven't released one yet ?

Using BSS with SINE, you can create your dream string sound. Be it via the multiple mics it offers, blend to taste, then use the mix feature to fold them to one mic option. Saving a lot of RAM resources, that's not possible with Kontakt/CSS. Plus CSS doesn't offer that many Mic options.

You can also use SINE to customize your instrument's articulations, how they interact, and X-fade, or Switch betwen them to taste via velocity, or CC control. That opens up so many avenues as far as sculpting the sounds to your needs, and taste. Also using the built-in Amp-Envelope editor, is a big plus to finess the sound to your liking both attack, and release portions, which makes quite an impact depending on what you are trying to achieve.

BSS continues to amaze me, it is not perfect, no string library is, but it is a beautiful Gem if you are looking for a great large Symphonic Strings Library.

I wish OT had Berlin Strings ready for SINE. That would have been a fantastic bonus gift for me.


----------



## Babe

muziksculp said:


> I don't think there is a Sordino Switch option for BSS, similar to the one in Berlin Strings.
> 
> Maybe OT can add a Sordino feature to BSS in the future.


There is no con sordino in BSS. Unfortunately. Me thinks that OT will be coming out with extensions such as real sordino and other bowing's.


----------



## muziksculp

Babe said:


> There is no con sordino in BSS. Unfortunately. Me thinks that OT will be coming out with extensions such as real sordino and other boxing's.



I will take a real sordino Strings library, over a make believe one any day. It would be very nice if they made a Berlin Symphonic Strings Sordinos Expansion.


----------



## muziksculp

Talking about what I would like to have in BSS that's not there, is Vibrato Control, and also Molto-Vibrato option (for the moments I need an exaggerated vibrato for those moments that you need that extra flair). Also the ability to cross-fade from no Vibrato to Molto-Vibrato via a CC# so I have total control over the amount of vibrato. 

Currently I can only switch between two types of Vibrato (Subtle, and Expressive). Plus, I feel the Expressive is not a Molto vibrato, it's still not the type of exaggerated Vibrato I would like to hear from a large String section.


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

Can we please keep this a serious discussion without hyperboles, calling names etc ? I’m an adult and I’m looking for adult opinions about a sample library, hope you guys don’t mind.


----------



## muziksculp

hbjdk said:


> So if someone likes the CSS example more than the BSS ditto, he or she is pr. definition a “CSS fan-boy”?
> 
> That’s not a very good way of making an argument.



Liking a Strings library is a personal choice, you can love CSS as much as you want, and dislike all other Strings, because of the CSS-Legato, but I find it unfair when CSS users post negative comments that make no sense, especially since they don't use it, and are evaluating it based on biases, or other criteria. I really don't care which library you use, or like, or dislike, but evaluating a library wrongly, or due to some bias, that I don't like.


----------



## muziksculp

whitewasteland said:


> Can we please keep this a serious discussion without hyperboles, calling names etc ? I’m an adult and I’m looking for adult opinions about a sample library, hope you guys don’t mind.



That ^


----------



## Casiquire

What is up with the constant comparison to CSS 😆 so tiring


----------



## muziksculp

hbjdk said:


> Seriously, the only person who seems to have a bias here is you.



I think you need to cool it down.


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> What is up with the constant comparison to CSS 😆 so tiring



No kidding, we have a CSS infestation issue on this thread. It's like there is no other library mentioned here except CSS.


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

muziksculp said:


> That ^


I appreciate your support, my friend, but you’re the one calling people « fanboys » and talking in quite hyperbolic ways 
I understand you love that library and I respect that. I bought Nashville Scoring Strings a few weeks ago and felt in love with it, despite a number of issues and things that work less than I expected. Sometimes a sample library moves us in a certain way, that’s part of the beauty of it all.

BUT let’s keep cool and try to stay as objective as possible


----------



## muziksculp

whitewasteland said:


> I appreciate your support, my friend, but you’re the one calling people « fanboys » and talking in quite hyperbolic ways
> I understand you love that library and I respect that. I bought Nashville Scoring Strings a few weeks ago and felt in love with it, despite a number of issues and things that work less than I expected. Sometimes a sample library moves us in a certain way, that’s part of the beauty of it all.
> 
> BUT let’s keep cool and try to stay as objective as possible




Hi @whitewasteland ,

Yes, that's what I'm hoping for. 

If I came across the wrong way, because I wrote 'fanboys' , Well.. I'm very sorry, and I take that word back, I never use that term. Honestly.. I'm a bit frustrated with the rushed judgements of BSS on this forum, and most of it is coming from CSS users. 

Let's keep this thread useful, and fun. 

Thanks.


----------



## Marsen

Just because of one comparison of two libraries, you can't really jugde, as long as you don't own both. And even then, there is also personal taste.

I appreciate these examples getting first impressions, so thanks for that, but as long as there are no walkthrough's and further information, it may be to early to be dissapointed?

A lively discussion is anyway very welcome.


----------



## AEF

RogiervG said:


> CSS blows BSS out of the water, especially considering the regular pricing.
> But even at the intro price, BSS is too pricy for what it offers sonically.
> 
> 
> Off topic (little rant, just read it, please don't respond to this, because i don't want to start a long offtopic discussion):
> IMHO, it's typical OT, and they live in the elite world (price wise), still too high priced with every berlin product. That sale they did with BF, that should be their regular prices.. (and ditch the addons asap, just one string lib, one wood, one brass etc, or with sine, individual patches if one needs it.). I mean it's still (incl. vat) 1600 bucks for the who thing with the BF sale price! Spitfire and VSL as direct competitive products are also around that pricepoint for the bundle at regular pricing (incl. vat). If i take compared offer from OT, same kind of instruments/articulations, full orchestra, it costs over 4500 bucks (excluding vat!) and it gets worse if you add some more addons they have. Major difference, way too much imho. And the series are not bug/problem free either, after all these years, but the pricing remains stale.



I love CSS in many ways but this is woefully inaccurate.

The tone of BSS is far better. The room is far far better. The mics are cleaner, more options, can be bright or warm, smooth or harsh. The longs are superior. 

CSS and CSB have the same issue with dynamics where the louder the get, the closer to you they get. It’s unnatural. The shorts are closer to you than the Legatos, also unnatural. 

The interface of CSS, the legato transitions, and the articulation choices are IMO much better. 

In other words, like all libraries both have some great aspects and poor aspects.


----------



## Zero&One

dzilizzi said:


> Still thinking about BSS. I've had mixed results with Sine. The current version has been more stable. But Cubase was still freezing a lot with it loaded. And no ProTools version.



It certainly seems more stable with this, hence my previous comment. It was a big concern as it does crash often for me, mainly if I do anything after I've loaded a set. Like remove/add instruments, mics, anything after that initial load.
But I've thrown stuff all over the place with this and it's creaked a few times (due to the size) but no crashes. I've added/remove mics... basically I tried to crash the bugger. But, that's my system and not yours, so take that with a pinch of salt I guess.

I do like it though. No regrets at all on this. I've bought a few libraries of late, and a few have already been deleted. So I'm not scared to admit when a purchase was a turd.

Sell his boat!


----------



## AudioLoco

Zero&One said:


> I've bought a few libraries of late, and a few have already been deleted. So I'm not scared to admit when a purchase was a turd.



With me it takes ages until I give up on libraries.  I just recently deleted a couple and needed the Force to convince myself to get rid of them even if NEVER in use...


----------



## Zero&One

AudioLoco said:


> With me it takes ages until I give up on libraries.  I just recently deleted a couple and needed the Force to convince myself to get rid of them even if NEVER in use...



I used to, until I watched the Charlie Clouser interview with Christian. If I’m not happy after a period I ditch them, just makes me more focussed.
When I’m doing nothing, I sometimes add them again. Normally to agree again with myself and delete them again. Feels good.


----------



## dzilizzi

Zero&One said:


> I used to, until I watched the Charlie Clouser interview with Christian. If I’m not happy after a period I ditch them, just makes me more focussed.
> When I’m doing nothing, I sometimes add them again. Normally to agree again with myself and delete them again. Feels good.


I usually move them to a spare HDD. Then I still have them if I later change my mind. You can't always redownload.


----------



## jbuhler

Zero&One said:


> It certainly seems more stable with this, hence my previous comment. It was a big concern as it does crash often for me, mainly if I do anything after I've loaded a set. Like remove/add instruments, mics, anything after that initial load.
> But I've thrown stuff all over the place with this and it's creaked a few times (due to the size) but no crashes. I've added/remove mics... basically I tried to crash the bugger. But, that's my system and not yours, so take that with a pinch of salt I guess.
> 
> I do like it though. No regrets at all on this. I've bought a few libraries of late, and a few have already been deleted. So I'm not scared to admit when a purchase was a turd.
> 
> Sell his boat!


I've not had one major issue with since since the last update. I have had two minor issues, one having to do with a strange error message that appears anytime I try to load a merged mic mix on Majestic Horn. That has been reported to OT, who confirm they can reproduce the issue. It doesn't affect playback as far as I can tell, so it is not at all a major issue. The other is that the GUI window for Sine won't stay resized and I can't figure out how to do it. When I resize it and go to another instrument, when I come back the GUI is back at its default size, which is wider than the screen I use to open the GUIs of plugins. This is an irritation, and it is new behavior since the last update, I think.

Overall I very much like Sine and when I have a choice I use the Sine version of OT instruments.


----------



## CT

AEF said:


> CSS and CSB have the same issue with dynamics where the louder the get, the closer to you they get.



This is such a bizarre and widespread issue with samples. Need to do some investigating to understand it better.


----------



## Zero&One

@jbuhler yeah maybe it was that latest update for me then?
The gui not remembering my last browse location is my gripe. But that didn’t happen today either oddly enough. But I agree on a whole I like it.


----------



## korruptkey

AEF said:


> CSS and CSB have the same issue with dynamics where the louder the get, the closer to you they get. It’s unnatural. The shorts are closer to you than the Legatos, also unnatural.



I always thought I was the only person who hears it that way. And seems to happen with a lot of libraries for me so I just assumed it's all in my head. 

But I agree with you that I like the Berlin tones better.


----------



## holywilly

Question for the owner of BSS and Synchron Strings Pro, how well are they blending together?
I have stack BBO zodiac with Abbey Road One to create silky longs and aggressive shorts and results are pleased. 
I like to stack both SSP and BSS together for part writing.


----------



## Instrugramm

I've carefully considered if BSS might be an option but after imitating some lines with HZS, adding some CSS, sometimes reverting back to BBCSO and adding some AROOF I really don't think I need them... I haven't even touched Afflatus or BS in this case and just recently deinstalled SStS. I think I might have reached a point where I have too many string libraries...

Ps. I feel like Modus did more for me than BSS can.


----------



## borisb2

Instrugramm said:


> I've carefully considered if BSS might be an option but after imitating some lines with HZS, adding some CSS, sometimes reverting back to BBCSO and adding some AROOF


Same here - I had a closer look at BSS but quickly realized that I can replicate that lush sound close enough with several other libraries (HWS and CS2 come to mind).

I dont need to own BSS or any library to be able to comment on what I hear. And in every demo of BSS I heard suprisingly sterile violins, I heard string runs that sound pretty synthy (despite being advertised als innovative). And yeah, why the heck did we talk about CSS so much? Well, possibly because mastermind robin posted a quick masterpiece here, done with BSS and CSS. My personal opinion after listening a few times remains BSS sounding meeh.. not bad, nothing CS2 or HWS or others could do pretty similar, while the CSS version indeed has so much more emotion and expression - I still wish we could hear a BS version of that piece


----------



## bfreepro

Zero&One said:


> I’m loving it. Really fun to play with. Articulation maps setup in no time. Nice selection of mics, something I normally find are bloat ware.
> Sustains are just a joy to noodle with.
> Sine hasn’t shit itself once, and for me that’s huge.
> And did I mention it’s fun to use?


Do the legato patches have varying attacks based on velocity? I guess I’m wondering just how “playable” it is, such as using one legato patch to not only perform slow and agile lines, but also sharp attacks/shorter notes too, sort of like Spitfire Performance Legato works, or to a lesser extent, Berlin Woodwinds.
I’ve also noticed all the demos I’ve heard so far still sound very detailed and can sound a bit closer/smaller than CSS sometimes even, and even though it’s a larger ensemble, it doesn’t have that creamy, silky lushness found in Spitfire Symphonic Strings, Synchron Strings Pro, even Hollywood Strings. Has anyone achieved a sound like this from BSS with the different mic positions?
It does sound very, very good to me, but having Synchron Strings Pro as well as Nashville Scoring Strings plus the older ones like CSS and SSS, I’m definitely leaning towards “don’t need it” at this time. However, I do use Berlin woodwinds, percussion, harp, JXL brass, plus all their other stuff like TIME and Modus... it would be nice to have symphonic strings in that same room, but only if it’s really playable and makes it easier to write instead of harder and more tedious (and we all know, sadly, more libraries = a more tedious and often indecisive writing process lol)

Really wish they’d have some walkthrus laid out before they released. Even something as simple as Hendrik sitting and playing the articulations and mic mixes would go a LONG way, and I think it’s a very valid criticism to point out the lack of walkthru upon releasing such a large product does everyone a disservice (I mentioned Hendrik specifically because I strongly dislike their overly-enunciated American voice over guy lmao... sounds like he’s hosting a kids show. @OrchestralTools Please bring back Sasha or Hendrik to do the tutorials... I don’t care about thick accents, I wanna hear it from someone who’s actually passionate about the craft!)

TL;DR- how playable is it? can it sound really lush and “creamy”? Any user demos, videos, opinions are thoroughly appreciated at this time. Sounds very good so far, but not good enough to bite yet since the market (and hard drive) is so damn crowded. Hopefully will get an official walkthru soon!


----------



## ProfoundSilence

bfreepro said:


> Do the legato patches have varying attacks based on velocity? I guess I’m wondering just how “playable” it is, such as using one legato patch to not only perform slow and agile lines, but also sharp attacks/shorter notes too, sort of like Spitfire Performance Legato works, or to a lesser extent, Berlin Woodwinds.



You can create an articulation that is velocity based.


----------



## AndyP

hbjdk said:


> So if someone likes the CSS example more than the BSS ditto, he or she is pr. definition a “CSS fan-boy”?
> 
> That’s not a very good way of making an argument.


That's it! I have neither BSS nor CSS, so I can only judge from demos if I like the sound or if the articulations convince me.
This whole fanboy discussion is totally unnecessary, it sometimes reminds me of BMW and Mercedes drivers trying to convince each other that their car is the better one.
Imagine if everyone had the same taste and would buy the same product. How boring would our world be (not referring to the endless fanboy discussions).

I think it's good that there are many new libraries, but I don't have to like them and I don't have to buy them, even if 99% try to convince me. 

I also don't like apple pie, raisins, whiskey ... I don't drive BMW or Mercedes and still I'm satisfied and I don't miss anything.


----------



## Raphioli

AndyP said:


> I also don't like apple pie


OMG really?! You're missing out on one of the most delicious desserts in the world!

But it all seriousness, it kind of reminded me of Intel vs AMD (or Nvidia vs AMD).


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Raphioli said:


> OMG really?! You're missing out on one of the most delicious desserts in the world!



dessert is bullshit food, vindaloo and buffalo wings or bust- if you disagree fight me


----------



## Sovereign

Vik said:


> Sure – that's useful, of course, But if the goal is to compare two libraries, the one which may be best at emulating one specific recording may not be the library that's best or even generally best for you – it's just best at emulating that recording... maybe because of a similar room tone, same sections sizes, preamps, mics, mic positions and what not.


One can always say "but what about this recording? Or this one?" A good library should always be able to emulate a decent cross-section of orchestral recordings. And those selections can be agreed upon beforehand I'm sure. So I don't necessarily believe that this is all so subjective. The baseline should always be a real orchestra, which is what these libraries are trying to achieve after all. Without such a reference one might actually believe it sounds good or 'real', when it in fact does not. YMMV depending on how you weigh the need for achieving that realism.


----------



## Peter Satera

There's a lot of focus on tone of a sustain or that legato sample change comparing it to CSS and CS2. Whereas, to me the playability of fast to slow passages is what stood out as soon as Hendrik played. 

Currently reading this, BSS is being compared to CSS's strength, it's legato movement in passages which it soars in, and then against CS2s tone. As a potential buyer, these opinions are beneficial, but flawed in someway. As the isolated strengths of those libraries are being plucked out and put up against BSS. That's fine, but there's so much focus around BSS not doing what those libraries are known for. To me, its the other way around. Its the strengths of the lib over the others which I'm interested in. 

I really wish the walkthrough came out first.


----------



## Michael Antrum

Peter Satera said:


> I really wish the walkthrough came out first.



I really don't understand OT's reluctance to put out a library at the same time as a walkthrough. They always do this with pre-orders, then intro discounts and walkthroughs coming out literally at the death of the intro offers. To me this really doesn't really make sense.

I think some of the 'lack of enthusiasm' at the introduction of this library is that the market for new string libraries is rather over-saturated, and that a library has to be be pretty exceptional to stand out these days. Good enough, is perhaps, not good enough any more.

A walkthrough would be a golden opportunity for OT to highlight the strengths of this new library, because with a product where there are no trials, refunds or resales in the current economic environment, who can blame everyone for being ultra careful.

But probably, it's also because many of use have more string libraries than we know what to do with....I was shocked when I listed all the string libraries I already have.....


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen

AndyP said:


> That's it! I have neither BSS nor CSS, so I can only judge from demos if I like the sound or if the articulations convince me.
> This whole fanboy discussion is totally unnecessary, it sometimes reminds me of BMW and Mercedes drivers trying to convince each other that their car is the better one.


I agree  But I must defend @muziksculp here: He already stated in *a post above* that he regrets using the fanboy term etc. So let's not focus on that discussion anymore 🌞


----------



## JTB

Michael Antrum said:


> I really don't understand OT's reluctance to put out a library at the same time as a walkthrough. They always do this with pre-orders, then intro discounts and walkthroughs coming out literally at the death of the intro offers. To me this really doesn't really make sense.
> 
> I think some of the 'lack of enthusiasm' at the introduction of this library is that the market for new string libraries is rather over-saturated, and that a library has to be be pretty exceptional to stand out these days. Good enough, is perhaps, not good enough any more.
> 
> A walkthrough would be a golden opportunity for OT to highlight the strengths of this new library, because with a product where there are no trials, refunds or resales in the current economic environment, who can blame everyone for being ultra careful.
> 
> But probably, also because many of use have more string libraries than we know what to do with....I was shocked when I wrote down all the string libraries I already have.....


OT and other devs could maybe take a different approach, namely, build on and polish their existing flagship products. Tempo specific articulations, RR legato.


----------



## Ashermusic

dzilizzi said:


> I usually move them to a spare HDD. Then I still have them if I later change my mind. You can't always redownload.



Me too.


----------



## Casiquire

Peter Satera said:


> There's a lot of focus on tone of a sustain or that legato sample change comparing it to CSS and CS2. Whereas, to me the playability of fast to slow passages is what stood out as soon as Hendrik played.
> 
> Currently reading this, BSS is being compared to CSS's strength, it's legato movement in passages which it soars in, and then against CS2s tone. As a potential buyer, these opinions are beneficial, but flawed in someway. As the isolated strengths of those libraries are being plucked out and put up against BSS. That's fine, but there's so much focus around BSS not doing what those libraries are known for. To me, its the other way around. Its the strengths of the lib over the others which I'm interested in.
> 
> I really wish the walkthrough came out first.


Exactly this. That's why I'm so frustrated by the CSS comparisons. I don't care. Can CSS sound like 18 violin 1s? No? Wow then it must not be worth getting.

We get the point: people prefer CSS legato. We can move on now


----------



## ansthenia

Casiquire said:


> We can move on now



Never!


----------



## richhickey

<rant> I wish there were dedicated threads/areas/tagging for lib _owners_. Every thread here gets dominated by cork-sniffers who've formed an opinion from the demos etc and are willing to go on about it ad infinitum as if their opinion holds as much value as that of someone with the library in hand - it doesn't. Separating the experience reports from the dross is too difficult. </rant>


----------



## Beans

richhickey said:


> <rant> I wish there were dedicated threads/areas/tagging for lib _owners_. Every thread here gets dominated by cork-sniffers who've formed an opinion from the demos etc and are willing to go on about it ad infinitum as if their opinion holds as much value as that of someone with the library in hand - it doesn't. Separating the experience reports from the dross is too difficult. </rant>



Be the change you want to see! Start by thinking of some soft guidelines, perhaps, since tagging isn't an option? It could be something to test out now and see if the community adopts for big releases.

First step: creating a new thread called something like *Owners thread: Berlin Symphonic Strings*. Second step: propose some guidelines. Maybe something like

Owners discuss favorite patches, mic mixes, etc.
Owners compare to other libraries they own.
Owners discuss bugs they find.
Non-owners ask questions, request audio samples.
Most of all, don't be frustrated if it doesn't work out.


----------



## dzilizzi

ProfoundSilence said:


> dessert is bullshit food, vindaloo and buffalo wings or bust- if you disagree fight me


Oh God, no more chicken. My husband loves chicken. I am so-so on it and currently chickened out. 

Vindaloo, however...... Now I'm hungry.


----------



## Peter Satera

Owners threads have to show their serial code to prove they own the library.


----------



## stevebarden

A year ago I mocked up Yoda's Theme using Berlin Strings. Now I've swapped out the strings with Berlin Symphonic Strings.

EDIT: I went back and spent a bit more time on the BSS mix. I changed the mics to Tree+Outrigger (this was done after the legato fixes from OT). I also added a version using CSS since that seems to be the library everybody wants to compare BSS to. Finally, I created a version using CSS on the high strings and BSS on the low strings. They blend very nicely together.

Berlin Symphonic Strings



Berlin Strings (my original mockup)



Cinematic Studio Strings



CSS (violins+violas); BSS (celli+basses)


----------



## ism

Casiquire said:


> What is up with the constant comparison to CSS 😆 so tiring



It's completely puzzling. Of course CSS has crisper, more satisfyingly crunchy legato transitions - it's a completely different space, section size, high-romantic aesthetic, if that's what you're in to.

But why set up CSS as the One Library To Rule Them All and then judge everything else by the CSS's aesthetic standards?

Every library is inferior to CSS (by the aesthetic standards of CSS).

Just like very library is going to be just as inferior to BSS (by the aesthetic standards of BSS)

And every library is going to be inferior to SCS (by the aesthetic standards of SCS).

Nothing does SCS like SCS, CSS like CSS, or BSS like BSS.


And I do think that BSS introduces a very lovely aesthetic of it's own. It's very OT. Only bigger, blurrier, more grandiloquent. 

Not a style that I write in - I'm still over the moon with how much I love the legatos on OT Special Bows , and I would never trade BSS for the Special Bows sul tastos.

But appreciated for it's own, new, aesthetic standard, very, very beautiful in it's own right.

SSS or Synchron might be a slightly more comparison. But even with these, I simply hear very different aesthetics.


----------



## Sips Tea

stevebarden said:


> A year ago I mocked up Yoda's Theme using Berlin Strings. Now I've swapped out the strings with Berlin Symphonic Strings.
> 
> Berlin Symphonic Strings
> 
> 
> 
> Berlin Strings



Thanks for sharing Steve. This is really helpful for me as I already own Berlin Strings. What mics did you use for BSS? My preference was the arrangement with Berlin Strings. It sounded brighter and more expressive compared to BSS. It was really noticeable when the violins came in from minute 1:15. The only thing I like so far about BSS is how deep and well rounded the basses sound.


----------



## ism

AndyP said:


> This whole fanboy discussion is totally unnecessary



I agree with this. "Fanboy" has different connotations in different contexts. But personally, I can't help hearing it as, at best a simple ad hominem, and at worst an attempted invocation of a tribal identity politics. Of course there are contexts with "fanboy" has more positive connotations, so we of course to be sensitive to the ambiguities of language in general.

That said, I do think it's legitimate to insist that threads on BSS, for instance, be given space to be about the aesthetic qualities of BSS, and not reduced to the lens of the aesthetics of CSS.

There's a subtle line between allowing that everyone has their own wildly varying aesthetic sensibilities and expressing one's own, and framing a discussion in terms of the logic of one aesthetic space to the exclusions of others.


----------



## Nils Neumann

stevebarden said:


> A year ago I mocked up Yoda's Theme using Berlin Strings. Now I've swapped out the strings with Berlin Symphonic Strings.
> 
> Berlin Symphonic Strings
> 
> 
> 
> Berlin Strings




Is this a staffpad export for sequenced in a daw?


----------



## ism

stevebarden said:


> A year ago I mocked up Yoda's Theme using Berlin Strings. Now I've swapped out the strings with Berlin Symphonic Strings.
> 
> Berlin Symphonic Strings
> 
> 
> 
> Berlin Strings




These are really lovely. And it suggests that there really is something special to be found in BSS. Some of those first notes - wow, they're gorgeous.

(And I prefer them both to CSS - but that's just me  )


----------



## borisb2

ism said:


> But why set up CSS as the One Library To Rule Them All and then judge everything else by the CSS's aesthetic standards?


Because somebody compared the new BSS to his usual go-to library.


----------



## CT

Ah, welcome, all ye newly branded fanboys! Don't worry, soon enough enthusiasm for something else will become more tempting for people to decry and you'll once again be a first class forum citizen.


----------



## Instrugramm

I would like to hear more mock-ups of the pattern legato only, it's the one element where BSS might really shine.


----------



## Tom Ferguson

IDK, it seems to me like people just really really want good realistic legato and know what they are listening for. We all listen to plenty of symphonic string sections and know what that a good legato would sound like for one in a VI. It's not really CSS(S)'s (with some performance samples stuff) fault for being some of the only good libraries out with a seriously decent legato (regardless of whether you like the specific 'style' of legato or whatever).

Saying that it's the other properties of CSS that either are what people are really hearing as preferred (to BSS) or that somehow facilitated the quality of transitions, I really don't think is a great argument.
At least I'd be very interested in hearing a developer or someone knowledgeable chime in as to why that is the case, at least to the night and day degree it is here (to our ears at least...). 
I would even go as far to say that a lot of CSS users are kind of reluctant users. I know in my personal experience I really didn't like CSS at first as I didn't like the room tone much and the overly expressive vibrato was a big turn off (I've grown to tolerate and accept it now tbf, even if I'd kill for a moderate vibrato to be added). It was only after realising that there are almost no other libraries that can fool your ears as effortlessly as CSS and co. was that all those negatives become pretty irrelevant.

I'm going out on a limb now, but I imagine (like myself) the majority of CSS users are dying for some competition and for a library with some different qualities - (especially a big symphonic sound like this. We love to GAS as much as any other library users, CSW thread for ex. Even if we are only 2nd class forum citizens as the above poster is implying ; ) - but with CSS level realism, legato, expression consistency etc. to come along. It's part of the reason we get frustrated when new libraries with so much potential come along like this and once again fail at the first listening test.

Speaking of that, implying that you can't judge a librarie's legato from 10 demos from different composers is nuts IMO. The legato that we are looking for isn't something that 10 talented composers are going to accidently all screw up. And if it is a thing where they have been using some alpha/whatever software and newer stuff has improved, it's no one's but OT's fault for not evidencing it to us. If it's going to improve in the future that's awesome, but we can only work with what we have now.

It's totally fair not to agree with people's opinions, expectations, preferences, tastes etc, but I just think the ad hom. argument being presented is quite weak, and their counterarguments (against CSS comparisons*) pretty hypocritical personally.

-----------

That being said, I think there are likely some great sounds to be had from it going from the demos, even if personally it's pretty disappointing considering from what I've heard is barely more realistic than BST which came out 7 years ago. I'm kinda hoping (maybe naïvely) this is OT just going on autopilot to quickly round off the Berlin Series before moving on to a new more modern flagship series where they'll really up their game and show everyone up!


----------



## stevebarden

Nils Neumann said:


> Is this a staffpad export for sequenced in a daw?


No, this was sequenced directly in Cubase.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

Tom Ferguson said:


> IDK, it seems to me like people just really really want good realistic legato and know what they are listening for. We all listen to plenty of symphonic string sections and know what that a good legato would sound like for one in a VI. It's not really CSS(S)'s (with some performance samples stuff) fault for being some of the only good libraries out with a seriously decent legato (regardless of whether you like the specific 'style' of legato or whatever).
> 
> Saying that it's the other properties of CSS that either are what people are really hearing as preferred (to BSS) or that somehow facilitated the quality of transitions, I really don't think is a great argument.
> At least I'd be very interested in hearing a developer or someone knowledgeable chime in as to why that is the case, at least to the night and day degree it is here (to our ears at least...).
> I would even go as far to say that a lot of CSS users are kind of reluctant users. I know in my personal experience I really didn't like CSS at first as I didn't like the room tone much and the overly expressive vibrato was a big turn off (I've grown to tolerate and accept it now tbf, even if I'd kill for a moderate vibrato to be added). It was only after realising that there are almost no other libraries that can fool your ears as effortlessly as CSS and co. was that all those negatives become pretty irrelevant.
> 
> I'm going out on a limb now, but I imagine (like myself) the majority of CSS users are dying for some competition and for a library with some different qualities (especially a big symphonic sound like this, we love to GAS as much as any other library users. Even if we are only 2nd class forum citizens as the above poster is implying lol) but with CSS level realism, legato, expression consistency etc. to come along. It's part of the reason we get frustrated when new libraries with so much potential come along like this and once again fail at the first listening test.
> 
> Speaking of that, implying that you can't judge a librarie's legato from 10 demos from different composers is nuts IMO. The legato that we are looking for isn't something that 10 talented composers are going to accidently all screw up. And if it is a thing where they have been using some alpha/whatever software and newer stuff has improved, it's no one's but OT's fault for not evidencing it to us. If it's going to improve in the future that awesome, but we can only work with what we have now.
> 
> It's totally fair not to agree with people's opinions, expectations, preferences, tastes etc, but I just think the ad hom. argument being presented is quite weak, and their counterarguments pretty hypocritical personally.
> 
> -----------
> 
> That being said, I think there are likely some great sounds to be had from it going from the demos, even if personally it's pretty disappointing considering from what I've heard is barely more realistic than BST which came out 7 years ago. I'm kinda hoping (maybe naïvely) this is OT just going on autopilot to quickly round off the Berlin Series before moving on to a new more modern flagship series where they'll really up their game and show everyone up!


You beat me to it.

The mental gymnastics going on here is quite a sight to behold.


----------



## peladio

Tom Ferguson said:


> IDK, it seems to me like people just really really want good realistic legato and know what they are listening for. We all listen to plenty of symphonic string sections and know what that a good legato would sound like for one in a VI. It's not really CSS(S)'s (with some performance samples stuff) fault for being some of the only good libraries out with a seriously decent legato (regardless of whether you like the specific 'style' of legato or whatever).
> 
> Saying that it's the other properties of CSS that either are what people are really hearing as preferred (to BSS) or that somehow facilitated the quality of transitions, I really don't think is a great argument.
> At least I'd be very interested in hearing a developer or someone knowledgeable chime in as to why that is the case, at least to the night and day degree it is here (to our ears at least...).
> I would even go as far to say that a lot of CSS users are kind of reluctant users. I know in my personal experience I really didn't like CSS at first as I didn't like the room tone much and the overly expressive vibrato was a big turn off (I've grown to tolerate and accept it now tbf, even if I'd kill for a moderate vibrato to be added). It was only after realising that there are almost no other libraries that can fool your ears as effortlessly as CSS and co. was that all those negatives become pretty irrelevant.
> 
> I'm going out on a limb now, but I imagine (like myself) the majority of CSS users are dying for some competition and for a library with some different qualities (especially a big symphonic sound like this, we love to GAS as much as any other library users. Even if we are only 2nd class forum citizens as the above poster is implying lol) but with CSS level realism, legato, expression consistency etc. to come along. It's part of the reason we get frustrated when new libraries with so much potential come along like this and once again fail at the first listening test.
> 
> Speaking of that, implying that you can't judge a librarie's legato from 10 demos from different composers is nuts IMO. The legato that we are looking for isn't something that 10 talented composers are going to accidently all screw up. And if it is a thing where they have been using some alpha/whatever software and newer stuff has improved, it's no one's but OT's fault for not evidencing it to us. If it's going to improve in the future that awesome, but we can only work with what we have now.
> 
> It's totally fair not to agree with people's opinions, expectations, preferences, tastes etc, but I just think the ad hom. argument being presented is quite weak, and their counterarguments pretty hypocritical personally.
> 
> -----------
> 
> That being said, I think there are likely some great sounds to be had from it going from the demos, even if personally it's pretty disappointing considering from what I've heard is barely more realistic than BST which came out 7 years ago. I'm kinda hoping (maybe naïvely) this is OT just going on autopilot to quickly round off the Berlin Series before moving on to a new more modern flagship series where they'll really up their game and show everyone up!



Great post and agreed completely..I'll just add what I wrote before..newer isn't equal to better

Recency bias can be strong around here


----------



## Tom Ferguson

peladio said:


> Great post and agreed completely..I'll just add what I wrote before..newer isn't equal to better
> 
> Recency bias can be strong around here



Cheers! 

And no of course not, but that is the hope and expectation, and an especially quite reasonable one for a somewhat boutique, high end company that Berlin strings like to present and price themselves as IMO.


----------



## prodigalson

I mocked up the theme to Once Upon a Time in America to test out the legato


----------



## Casiquire

It's not mental gymnastics here, I'm just not hearing what everyone else hears with CSS. I hear bumpy and uneven legatos in it too, so I've accepted that there is no perfect legato at this point and that's why it's a tired argument



prodigalson said:


> I mocked up the theme to Once Upon a Time in America to test out the legato




Thanks for this! I think it sounds great but can't shake hearing a bit of VSL in the tone. I think it sounds better than most VSL strings but it still has some of that flavor


----------



## Peter Satera

prodigalson said:


> I mocked up the theme to Once Upon a Time in America to test out the legato




Love the mockup!


----------



## Sovereign

ism said:


> These are really lovely. And it suggests that there really is something special to be found in BSS. Some of those first notes - wow, they're gorgeous.


Do we really need to coat everything with sugar, a mile deep? No offense meant to Steve, but c'mon man. Both those mockups are not that great and certainly no showcase for BSS.


SimonCharlesHanna said:


> You beat me to it.
> 
> The mental gymnastics going on here is quite a sight to behold.


Stockholm syndrome?* *


----------



## Symfoniq

prodigalson said:


> I mocked up the theme to Once Upon a Time in America to test out the legato




I appreciate this mockup. I'm a big fan of the score. But based on this and the other demos, I don't think BSS is a step forward.


----------



## Instrugramm

Casiquire said:


> It's not mental gymnastics here, I'm just not hearing what everyone else hears with CSS. I hear bumpy and uneven legatos in it too, so I've accepted that there is no perfect legato at this point and that's why it's a tired argument
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for this! I think it sounds great but can't shake hearing a bit of VSL in the tone. I think it sounds better than most VSL strings but it still has some of that flavor





Symfoniq said:


> I appreciate this mockup. I'm a big fan of the score. But based on this and the other demos, I don't think BSS is a step forward.


Agree... there's actually a sort of minimalist strings patch in Spaghetti Western that also nails the lush violin tone of Morricone a lot better. (if played at minimal expression/ velocity)


----------



## stevebarden

Sips Tea said:


> Thanks for sharing Steve. This is really helpful for me as I already own Berlin Strings. What mics did you use for BSS? My preference was the arrangement with Berlin Strings. It sounded brighter and more expressive compared to BSS. It was really noticeable when the violins came in from minute 1:15. The only thing I like so far about BSS is how deep and well rounded the basses sound.


I did not customize any mic positions. They were the default Spot 1 and Tree mics.


----------



## Sovereign

prodigalson said:


> I mocked up the theme to Once Upon a Time in America to test out the legato



I'm hearing lots of tuning issues (not your fault obviously).


Tom Ferguson said:


> I'm going out on a limb now, but I imagine (like myself) the majority of CSS users are dying for some competition


I've almost given up, had high hopes from this one from OT, but clearly Alex Wallbank is the legato God, forever.


----------



## Eptesicus

Tom Ferguson said:


> IDK, it seems to me like people just really really want good realistic legato and know what they are listening for. We all listen to plenty of symphonic string sections and know what that a good legato would sound like for one in a VI. It's not really CSS(S)'s (with some performance samples stuff) fault for being some of the only good libraries out with a seriously decent legato (regardless of whether you like the specific 'style' of legato or whatever).
> 
> Saying that it's the other properties of CSS that either are what people are really hearing as preferred (to BSS) or that somehow facilitated the quality of transitions, I really don't think is a great argument.
> At least I'd be very interested in hearing a developer or someone knowledgeable chime in as to why that is the case, at least to the night and day degree it is here (to our ears at least...).
> I would even go as far to say that a lot of CSS users are kind of reluctant users. I know in my personal experience I really didn't like CSS at first as I didn't like the room tone much and the overly expressive vibrato was a big turn off (I've grown to tolerate and accept it now tbf, even if I'd kill for a moderate vibrato to be added). It was only after realising that there are almost no other libraries that can fool your ears as effortlessly as CSS and co. was that all those negatives become pretty irrelevant.
> 
> I'm going out on a limb now, but I imagine (like myself) the majority of CSS users are dying for some competition and for a library with some different qualities - (especially a big symphonic sound like this. We love to GAS as much as any other library users, CSW thread for ex. Even if we are only 2nd class forum citizens as the above poster is implying ; ) - but with CSS level realism, legato, expression consistency etc. to come along. It's part of the reason we get frustrated when new libraries with so much potential come along like this and once again fail at the first listening test.
> 
> Speaking of that, implying that you can't judge a librarie's legato from 10 demos from different composers is nuts IMO. The legato that we are looking for isn't something that 10 talented composers are going to accidently all screw up. And if it is a thing where they have been using some alpha/whatever software and newer stuff has improved, it's no one's but OT's fault for not evidencing it to us. If it's going to improve in the future that's awesome, but we can only work with what we have now.
> 
> It's totally fair not to agree with people's opinions, expectations, preferences, tastes etc, but I just think the ad hom. argument being presented is quite weak, and their counterarguments pretty hypocritical personally.
> 
> -----------
> 
> That being said, I think there are likely some great sounds to be had from it going from the demos, even if personally it's pretty disappointing considering from what I've heard is barely more realistic than BST which came out 7 years ago. I'm kinda hoping (maybe naïvely) this is OT just going on autopilot to quickly round off the Berlin Series before moving on to a new more modern flagship series where they'll really up their game and show everyone up!



Well said.

Another thing to add is that I find it irksome when "subjectivity" is used in defense of an average or bad library. Yes, music is subjective to a certain degree, but that cannot be a get out clause to produce products that either bad, or to a lesser degree, don't add anything to the market or take things forward.

I would argue that even in musical terms, some things can be objectively better than others....like the comparison demo Robin did earlier in the thread.


----------



## Chungus

Has anyone used the leader mics yet? I'm curious what those might add to the sound.


----------



## ism

Sovereign said:


> Do we really need to coat everything with sugar, a mile deep? No offense meant to Steve, but c'mon man. Both those mockups are not that great and certainly no showcase for BSS.
> 
> Stockholm syndrome?**



Well sure, I obviously hear some issues with the midi programming, it's a mock up. In the first bars, for instance, BS in particular needs a slower release in some parts, but I think BS comes with recorded soft releases, so this is a simple programming issue, and I wasn't commenting on the virtuosity of the midi programming.

Yet there's some gorgeous sonority here that these demos, side by side, really bring out and contrast. It's not that it up to Noam's virtuosic level of Elgar and Mahler mock-ups with CSS (what is?), but these demos really gives a good comparison of the two overall aesthetic spaces of the libraries.




And there's moments when the large, grandiloquence of BSS really works in a way that I'm not sure Ive heard anything else work. Sure there's issues in crafting some of the BSS arcs also. But there are moment when it's just such a great sound that you can really hear the sweet spot of the library starting to emerge. To develop this, I expect it would be a lot of work to go back to learn how to craft performance with the dynamics and vibrato to draw out the kind of performances that this library seems to be capable of (even if I'm pretty sure by now that the BSS legato is never going to be satisfyingly in it's crunchyness as CSS). I assume that it just copies the BS midi data. And all this kind of comparison between libraries is every going to give you is a sense of where to start.




Not sure what the "stockholm syndrome" remark refers to. The OT sound isn't my personal among sample libraries, maybe top 3 or 4 (and OT marketing really annoys me, though I generally don't feel the need to complain about it publicly). But I do think OT has a very distinct, beautiful, more classical than Spitfire or EastWest, but less classical the VSL ethos to it. Sound is what I care about most in a library. The technical superiority of the legato important, top 5 concerns for sure, but sound is number 1. Which is why I prefer SStS over CSS despite the objectively far superior legation of the latter (unless, of course, I was writing something that would sound better on CSS, which could happen, I do like the CSS sound also).


Completely fair to have a discussion about the what library has the most satisfyingly crunch legato transitions - and BSS isn't that library. But surely it's ok to invoke alternate aesthetic lenses also.


----------



## ism

Tom Ferguson said:


> Saying that it's the other properties of CSS that either are what people are really hearing as preferred (to BSS) or that somehow facilitated the quality of transitions, I really don't think is a great argument.



Some interesting points. But I'm not sure where anyone is making this argument.


----------



## EricValette

Chungus said:


> Has anyone used the leader mics yet? I'm curious what those might add to the sound.



Sure!

It gives a very nice detailed sound. I am using this mic position on the cellos in this mockup project which is an "alpha" version that still needs a lot of work (BSS combination : spot1 + leader + outriggers + AB). 

Also note that BSS here is combined with BS (AB+Close). The combination seems to work quite well.



Reference :


----------



## Tom Ferguson

ism said:


> Some interesting points. But I'm not sure where anyone is making this argument.



That's how I interpreted your post:



ism said:


> It's completely puzzling. Of course CSS has crisper, more satisfyingly crunchy legato transitions - it's a completely different space, section size, high-romantic aesthetic, if that's what you're in to. etc.....



If I have somehow misinterpreted or am misrepresenting your points, please feel free to correct me. 

Also, if this doesn't apply to you (whoever is reading), feel free to disregard this point as it's relatively auxiliary to my main argument anyway.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

peladio said:


> Recency bias can be strong around here



And a feeling that differing opinions and critiques are somehow a personal attack on one's purchasing decisions.


----------



## Marsen

ism said:


> ... I'm still over the moon with how much I love the legatos on OT Special Bows , and I would never trade BSS for the Special Bows sul tastos...


Aren't these legatos just amazing?

Never heard flautandos like these before. 
Playability, tone, room, performance. This is incredible.


----------



## Tom Ferguson

EricValette said:


> Sure!
> 
> It gives a very nice detailed sound. I am using this mic position on the cellos in this mockup project which is an "alpha" version that still needs a lot of work (BSS combination : spot1 + leader + outriggers + AB).
> 
> Also note that BSS here is combined with BS (AB+Close). The combination seems to work quite well.
> 
> 
> 
> Reference :




Still hearing lumpy legatos etc... blah blah blah

But the tone is really great in this context and is obviously (IMO) the kind of environment it is going to excel at. Good luck with the mockup!


----------



## Tom Ferguson

Marsen said:


> Aren't these legatos just amazing?
> 
> Never heard flautandos like these before.
> Playability, tone, room, performance. This is incredible.



Yeh I agree. I love mixing BSt Special bows sul tasto leg + CSS w/ con sord emultion on. Instant Newman or the like IMO!


----------



## ism

Marsen said:


> Aren't these legatos just amazing?
> 
> Never heard flautandos like these before.
> Playability, tone, room, performance. This is incredible.



I know! And three dynamic layers of sul tasto loveliness. Not to mention all the detail and texture in the different attack and release samples. Game changing (to coin a phrase). 

The Special Bows are a hidden gem ( presumably due to boutique pricing). 

Seriously OT - half the regular price, put a nice picture of a Swedish glacier or something on the cover, and lets all look forward to endless threads where we can all share our neo-classical Special Bows demos.


----------



## Marsen

Tom Ferguson said:


> Yeh I agree. I love mixing BSt Special bows sul tasto leg + CSS w/ con sord emultion on. Instant Newman or the like IMO!


This


----------



## dzilizzi

stevebarden said:


> A year ago I mocked up Yoda's Theme using Berlin Strings. Now I've swapped out the strings with Berlin Symphonic Strings.
> 
> Berlin Symphonic Strings
> 
> 
> 
> Berlin Strings



Not sure which I like better, string-wise The BSS is more in your face than the BS version. But I think it may be a mix thing because BSS seemed to overwhelm the other instruments. I'm just learning to mix this stuff but I wonder if using room or farther mics would have made them sound more similar? Though, truthfully, at the beginning of the piece, I thought BS was a little lost in the mix. But as it got to the end it was perfect to me. So maybe something in between the two? 

And, my opinion, especially listening on my phone speakers, is questionable.


----------



## ism

Tom Ferguson said:


> Yeh I agree. I love mixing BSt Special bows sul tasto leg + CSS w/ con sord emultion on. Instant Newman or the like IMO!


Oh that does sound like fun.


----------



## Marsen

ism said:


> I know! And three dynamic layers of sul tasto loveliness. Not to mention all the detail and texture in the different attack and release samples. Game changing (to coin a phrase).



Had Inspire 2 Flautandos before and was thinking, wether I need this, haha.

Ok, back to topic:
CSS: King of legatos. BSS: What?


----------



## EricValette

Tom Ferguson said:


> Still hearing lumpy legatos etc... blah blah blah
> 
> But the tone is really great in this context and is obviously (IMO) the kind of environment it is going to excel at. Good luck with the mockup!



Thanks a lot Tom 

Indeed, the overall lush and romantic tone of BSS is just perfect for this particular type of sound. 

For weird legato transitions, it's sure that we'll have to juggle as much as possible with the velocity curves to attenuate all that a bit... Hope OT will fix this soon... but I think that the game is worth the effort and the integration with other products in the Berlin range is effortless (here with BS, BWW, Berlin Brass and JXL Brass)... and a little of AROOF.


----------



## ism

Tom Ferguson said:


> That's how I interpreted your post:
> 
> 
> 
> If I have somehow misinterpreted or am misrepresenting your points, please feel free to correct me.
> 
> Also, if this doesn't apply to you (whoever is reading), feel free to disregard this point as it's relatively auxiliary to my main argument anyway.



Well, I think it's maybe just question of nuance. Perhaps what I wrote didn't come across with all the nuance I intended.

I'm certainly not arguing that that BSS doesn't suffer some occasionally (objectively) bumpy legato that you would probably have to worry about in, say, CSS.

Just that beyond the most literal and technical level, I don't feel bringing in CSS is always as useful a gold standard as it is sometimes venerates as.

There are moment when the BSS legato has a particular nuance and quality that I think are wonderful, which realize (in combination with the sonority) an emotional effect that CSS isn't designed for, and could never even approach (and vice-versa, of course).

Just like, while no one would ever argue that Spitfire Studio Strings has - objectively - nearly as technically sophisticated or deeply sampled a legato as CSS, when you play to it's strengths, the SStS legato has an entirely lovely quality that CSS could never even approach (and vice-versa, of course).


But it's also that I think CSS is designed for a type of uber-plonkability - it's optimized for a very particular (and very mainstream) style, and to make it very hard to make it sound bad.

Which is great, but there can also be something lost in this. And here's where excessively elevating CSS to the One Library to Rule Them All can, at worst, shut down space to understand what other libraries do well, and differently, even if they legitimately have their flaws.


For the purpose of illustration, CSSS vs Spitfire solo strings provides a more dramatic example. It's much easier to get something sounding nice with CSSS when you just plonk away at it like a piano than it is with SsS, which can sound horrible when you naively plonk away at it like a piano. (quick tip - never do this). 


But this is largely because, by design, CSSS bakes in a certain quality of performance that SsS doesn't. And once you learn to craft the performance with SsS a bit, you get a performability that lets you craft some wonderful arcs that you could simply never get with CSSS. So CSSS seems to be optimized for plonkability, and SsS for performability. (The kinds of aesthetic spaces this performability opens up also happens to be the kinds of expressive lines I also care about in a solo strings library more than the easily plonkable ones, but this is a subjective preference. Both are objective excellent libraries in their respective sweet spots)


Applying this back to BSS - the 3 legato types of BSS do seem to have a particular aesthetic space in mind. And a very lovely one. And a very different one from CSS.


Yet we see in the above yoda mock ups that copying and pasting BS data over to BSS has it's quirks. Combined with my impressions from what works and doesn't work in other demos, I think it's pretty clear that BSS simply doesn't have the level of plonkability you get from CSS. So it's going to be easier to make BSS sound bad that CSS. 

But again, I don't consider low-plonkability to be, in and of itself, necessarily a bad thing,

But perhaps some of the low-plonkability does arise because of (objectively) inferior quality of scripting or depth of sampling - I really don't know, and will leave it to people who actually own the library to comment on one way or the other.


But listening to the demos, clearly there are moments in which BSS really does reach new aesthetic places, very wonderfully.


So maybe it requires a bit a attention to the nuances of the performance? Or maybe there are bona-fide flaws in the playability?


But the real point is that I, personally, don't consider a lack of plonkability to automatically be a bad thing in a library. Since frequently, when a library is designed for plonkability, it may very easily come at the cost of performability. 


The above trade of between plonkabilty and playability in CSSS vs SsS is a good example. For a further example, take the Joshua Bell violin - which has superbly smooth legato and glorious plonkability. Yet a plonkability that fundamentally arises from design that explicitly disallows any possibility of significant crafting of the dynamic arcs. Wheres in allowing great control over the crafting of arcs, the Spitfire solo strings let you make some wonderful lines, entirely beyond anything the JB, for all it's glorious plonkability, could ever reach. 

But also - and necessarily - SsS allows you to craft arcs that sound really bad. The cost of allowing beautiful performances (rather than just baking them in) is, necessarily, that it also allows you to also hamfistedly plonk in really, really bad performances. But this is a feature, not a bug.


So to say that the JB violin always sounds amazing (which it does) and that SsS sometimes doesn't is absolutely not the same as saying that the former is "objectively" better that than the latter. It isn't. Despite that face that very many of my early attempts with SsS are, entirely objectively, really really bad. Rather, it's apples to oranges. Design for Plonkability vs Design for Performability. Each can render utterly beautiful lines that the other simply can't even approach. .


And the reason I'm finding this thread (for a library I don't plan to buy) interesting, is that, even though BSS clearly has some limitations (ie bumpy legatos) compared to, say CSS, it also clearly opens up some really new and really lovely aesthetic spaces.


Like CSS, each of the sampled BSS legatos has a clear genre or aesthetic space that they play to. Which is of course a complicated thing. The pristine smoothness of the CSS legatos clearly interacts with the other dynamics of baked in performance - the progressive vibrato, for instance.


And while I really don't yet fully understand the BSS aesthetic space, I really do like it. 


And it's entirely, by design, just very, very different from CSS. 

For as much as I love the CSS sound (it really is gorgeous), it's also a very popular and dominant aesthetic (especially in the media world), and one that I'm also looking to get away from in favour of opening up other aesthetic spaces (ie Special Bows, Tundra, LCO, SStS, LSCS ... all very un-CSS libraries, though I wish that all of these had legato as (objectively) deeply sampled as CSS). 


Anyway, none of this is to say that BSS doesn't - objectively - have flaws. Or that CSS isn't (objectively) superb. Just that I don't think CSS is always a particularly meaningful, or helpful - or even objective - benchmark. In the same way that, for instance, while it is an objective fact that SsS transitions can be bumpier that the JB or CSSS transitions, this doesn't remotely amount to an "objective" comparison of which is the "better" library. It simply obfuscates an underlying, and entirely subjective, context of "I prefer this style of line", falsely representing this bias as "objective". 


So I guess this is the nuance I was trying to express. Maybe that's clarifying?



Anyway, I don't actually have BSS, so that's probably more than enough for me to weigh in about it.


----------



## JTB

blah...blah...blah...
It's 2020. VSL brought out their first orchestral library 20 years ago. By now their should be libraries that are so close to the real thing that even the most seasoned orchestral conductor or composer could not recognise that they are listening to samples.

Libraries should, by now, be offering one set of articulations optimised for 70 BPM, one set of articulations optimised for 80 BPM all the way up to 180 BPM. 10 RR for legatos in 5 dynamic layers, optimised for all tempos in non vibrato, progressive vibrato, vibrato and molto vibrato. In SulTatso, Sul Ponticello, Flautando, Harmonics and Tremelo.

After all, this is how musicians achieve a musical performance. This is the only way MIDI musicians are going to achieve anything similar to that performance.


----------



## prodigalson

JTB said:


> blah...blah...blah...
> It's 2020. VSL brought out their first orchestral library 20 years ago. By now their should be libraries that are so close to the real thing that even the most seasoned orchestral conductor or composer could not recognise that they are listening to samples.
> 
> Libraries should, by now, be offering one set of articulations optimised for 70 BPM, one set of articulations optimised for 80 BPM all the way up to 180 BPM. 10 RR for legatos in 5 dynamic layers, optimised for all tempos in non vibrato, progressive vibrato, vibrato and molto vibrato. In SulTatso, Sul Ponticello, Flautando, Harmonics and Tremelo.
> 
> After all, this is how musicians achieve a musical performance. This is the only way MIDI musicians are going to achieve anything similar to that performance.



LOL!!! That sounds great but it would take years to record and millions of dollars to produce...but let me guess...it should still be priced under $400?


----------



## jbuhler

JTB said:


> blah...blah...blah...
> It's 2020. VSL brought out their first orchestral library 20 years ago. By now their should be libraries that are so close to the real thing that even the most seasoned orchestral conductor or composer could not recognise that they are listening to samples.
> 
> Libraries should, by now, be offering one set of articulations optimised for 70 BPM, one set of articulations optimised for 80 BPM all the way up to 180 BPM. 10 RR for legatos in 5 dynamic layers, optimised for all tempos in non vibrato, progressive vibrato, vibrato and molto vibrato. In SulTatso, Sul Ponticello, Flautando, Harmonics and Tremelo.
> 
> After all, this is how musicians achieve a musical performance. This is the only way MIDI musicians are going to achieve anything similar to that performance.


Sounds very pricy to buy, you’d need quite the networked set of computers to play it, and it would take a long time to program. All in all you’d do better hiring a real orchestra where you would still have many more tempos, RRs, dynamic layers, articulations, etc at your disposal and the input of musicians who know how to play their instrument like few others in the world.


----------



## jbuhler

prodigalson said:


> LOL!!! That sounds great but it would take years to record and millions of dollars to produce...but let me guess...it should still be priced under $400?


I’ve always said that I’ll never be satisfied until I have a professional orchestra on call in my studio.


----------



## Ashermusic

jbuhler said:


> Sounds very pricy to buy, you’d need quite the networked set of computers to play it, and it would take a long time to program. All in all you’d do better hiring a real orchestra where you would still have many more tempos, RRs, dynamic layers, articulations, etc at your disposal and the input of musicians who know how to play their instrument like few others in the world.



Great I can picture it now “ a groundbreaking new library form Spitfire : Orchestral Colors 80 BPM! Coming soon, Orchestral Colors 90 BPM! Each only $799, intro price $599.

Shoot me now, please.


----------



## JTB

If your writing at 80 BPM, load the 80 BPM library.

OR you can just use legatos that were recorded at 120 BPM to try and achieve a good result in that track you are working on at 85 BPM. It's up to you. 

Complete the bundle get 25% Off!!!


----------



## ism

Something like insolidus has its arcs recorded, under the hood, at multiple tempos (8dio won’t disclose any more information than ‘multiple tempos) and it uses time machine to make it appear as if they choir can change tempo seamlessly. And it works really well between about 90 and 120 bpm. 

So maybe not a completely crazy idea, as we enter an era where your new laptop is going to start coming with 20 or 30 cores runninng at 3GHz. 

(Ie. probably only mostly a crazy idea)


----------



## Babe

I really intended to have this piece at 100 bpm but couldn't afford the samples at that speed. So I had to be satisfied at 80 bpm.


----------



## CT

JTB said:


> blah...blah...blah...
> It's 2020. VSL brought out their first orchestral library 20 years ago. By now their should be libraries that are so close to the real thing that even the most seasoned orchestral conductor or composer could not recognise that they are listening to samples.
> 
> Libraries should, by now, be offering one set of articulations optimised for 70 BPM, one set of articulations optimised for 80 BPM all the way up to 180 BPM. 10 RR for legatos in 5 dynamic layers, optimised for all tempos in non vibrato, progressive vibrato, vibrato and molto vibrato. In SulTatso, Sul Ponticello, Flautando, Harmonics and Tremelo.
> 
> After all, this is how musicians achieve a musical performance. This is the only way MIDI musicians are going to achieve anything similar to that performance.



And when these specs are industry standard, people will daydream about how merely doubling them would lead to such better results.

Seriously, maybe I'm old fashioned but I think there's a point of diminishing returns with this stuff. The time, money, and effort (from both developers and users) that go into wrangling a massive sampling project must eventually become absurd compared to the cost of hiring real players. 

I won't say I'd be happy to be proven wrong, either, because I don't think I would be if suddenly people felt like they could truly (even more than they do now) justify forgoing the real thing, even given the budget.


----------



## jbuhler

Taking up @ism’s point and speaking as someone who bought BSS on day of release and has been working with the library since, I agree that BSS is its own thing that fits very much into the OT aesthetic. Yes, it’s a bigger BS and it seems it’s also a string complement to JXL Brass if that’s what you are looking for. But I also see it as section strings for the Ark libraries. And with this sound my mind goes toward the post-Wagnerian orchestra, especially Mahler, Zemlinsky of the Lyric Symphony, Schoenberg of Gurrelieder or Strauss of Alpine Symphony with string passages that require the heft of a string section of this size. That’s the sound world that the Arks evoke for me, which is also the sound world of Huppertz’s score to Metropolis, though Huppertz didn’t use choir, he definitely used high woodwinds, and where on earth are the Ark saxophones to paint the decadence of the city with! 

This sound, which calls to me from the Arks (especially the first two), is related to our current cinematic epic, but it’s not entirely the same thing, and I hear it calling in BSS too. And I hear it in a way that I don’t hear it in BS or in SSS or Hollywood Strings (I don’t have the last one). It’s perhaps fleetingly present in HZS (which I have), but it’s not in CSS at all as far as I can hear (I don’t have CSS either). Which is perfectly ok. CSS has other things it does exceptionally well and the same with HS. We don't want all our virtual orchestras sounding the same any more than we want our real life orchestras sounding the same.

What I’ve noticed in playing with BSS is that it captures a sense of the potential of the large ensemble even in the low dynamic levels and the ensemble expands movingly in scope as you crescendo. I've attached a quick mockup of the string parts for the opening bars of the Andante moderato from Mahler’s Sixth. I was actually working on this to explore another aspect of the library, the lower register of the violin legato and I was also using it to investigate the lowest dynamic layer. The midi programming here was done quickly—it’s also the default mics and no processing (other than raising the gain on the first violins and a touch of reverb, if I remember right)—but producing a stunning rendition of the passage wasn’t my point in doing it (learning how the library responds to programming, and since I know the piece well how the instruments balance against one another in this register, etc. was more the order of the test). What I noticed immediately was how the crescendo felt, being supported by the heft of the ensemble, even though the crescendo is not exceptionally well executed in terms of my programming, just what I quickly sketched in, but the exaggeration serves to reveal the point, as it exposes the potential. It’s also not just size of the ensemble or the volume or shape of the crescendo but more on the order of how the body of strings seems to fill the music as it expands. It's hard to explain what I'm hearing but SSS feels quite different on this crescendo (and, no, I don’t want to bother reworking all the programming to get the SSS version to the point it would be a fair comparison), and I’m having to work much harder to get SSS there. The SSS legato is also especially wonky in this register at this tempo. 

There are a million of these little things that make up the signature of a library. But even in this quick rendition and the way it performs the little crescendo, I feel the library inspiring me in a certain direction, and it is a quite different direction from SSS. In that respect BSS is complementary to SSS. Will that complementation be useful? For me I think the answer is yes. We shall see.

NB: Although I love the sound of these giant string sections, I tend to prefer smaller string sections—SCS is the library I grab first—when I'm working on orchestra stuff.


----------



## mafan

Personally I love this library! Such a great tone. The transition can be uneven at times, but the sound is just too good that I can look past that easily. I still found it easier to program than CSS. Here's a short composition I did with BSS+Phoenix+JXL Brass.


----------



## borisb2

mafan said:


> Here's a short composition I did with BSS+Phoenix+JXL Brass


And why is this not on the OT website?


----------



## mafan

borisb2 said:


> And why is this not on the OT website?


Thank you! Haha I wish. They probably only know me as a loyal customer 🤭


----------



## Casiquire

jbuhler said:


> Sounds very pricy to buy, you’d need quite the networked set of computers to play it, and it would take a long time to program. All in all you’d do better hiring a real orchestra where you would still have many more tempos, RRs, dynamic layers, articulations, etc at your disposal and the input of musicians who know how to play their instrument like few others in the world.


It doesn't have to take long to program. Play it in with a default patch, then switch on an advanced delay which allows the software to pick out the best samples. There's a library out doing something similar right now and it sounds *really dang good*


----------



## holywilly

The tone of this library is beautiful, however the inconsistent of legato transition across all instrument makes me need to learn this library from the ground up (my go to library is VSL, and have been using VSL for almost a decade).

I’ve tried to stack BBS and Synchron Strings Pro, BBS’s legato is kind of laggy compared with VSL, especially Violins 2, Viola and Cello. BBS, Violin 1 seems to have the fastest transition that can accompany Synchron Strings Pro very well. 

I also created a monster short patch consisting BBS, Abbey Road ONE and VSL zodiac and damn, that sounds massive and violent!


----------



## jamwerks

dzilizzi said:


> I'm still trying to figure out why people like CSS. I heard Robin's BSS piece and thought, that doesn't sound so good. Then listened to the CSS version and thought, that doesn't sound good either.


Sounds like more than BSS or CSS you need some SPE(akers)!


----------



## Instrugramm

jbuhler said:


> Taking up @ism’s point and speaking as someone who bought BSS on day of release and has been working with the library since, I agree that BSS is its own thing that fits very much into the OT aesthetic. Yes, it’s a bigger BS and it seems it’s also a string complement to JXL Brass if that’s what you are looking for. But I also see it as section strings for the Ark libraries. And with this sound my mind goes toward the post-Wagnerian orchestra, especially Mahler, Zemlinsky of the Lyric Symphony, Schoenberg of Gurrelieder or Strauss of Alpine Symphony with string passages that require the heft of a string section of this size. That’s the sound world that the Arks evoke for me, which is also the sound world of Huppertz’s score to Metropolis, though Huppertz didn’t use choir, he definitely used high woodwinds, and where on earth are the Ark saxophones to paint the decadence of the city with!
> 
> This sound, which calls to me from the Arks (especially the first two), is related to our current cinematic epic, but it’s not entirely the same thing, and I hear it calling in BSS too. And I hear it in a way that I don’t hear it in BS or in SSS or Hollywood Strings (I don’t have the last one). It’s perhaps fleetingly present in HZS (which I have), but it’s not in CSS at all as far as I can hear (I don’t have CSS either). Which is perfectly ok. CSS has other things it does exceptionally well and the same with HS. We don't want all our virtual orchestras sounding the same any more than we want our real life orchestras sounding the same.
> 
> What I’ve noticed in playing with BSS is that it captures a sense of the potential of the large ensemble even in the low dynamic levels and the ensemble expands movingly in scope as you crescendo. I've attached a quick mockup of the string parts for the opening bars of the Andante moderato from Mahler’s Sixth. I was actually working on this to explore another aspect of the library, the lower register of the violin legato and I was also using it to investigate the lowest dynamic layer. The midi programming here was done quickly—it’s also the default mics and no processing (other than raising the gain on the first violins and a touch of reverb, if I remember right)—but producing a stunning rendition of the passage wasn’t my point in doing it (learning how the library responds to programming, and since I know the piece well how the instruments balance against one another in this register, etc. was more the order of the test). What I noticed immediately was how the crescendo felt, being supported by the heft of the ensemble, even though the crescendo is not exceptionally well executed in terms of my programming, just what I quickly sketched in, but the exaggeration serves to reveal the point, as it exposes the potential. It’s also not just size of the ensemble or the volume or shape of the crescendo but more on the order of how the body of strings seems to fill the music as it expands. It's hard to explain what I'm hearing but SSS feels quite different on this crescendo (and, no, I don’t want to bother reworking all the programming to get the SSS version to the point it would be a fair comparison), and I’m having to work much harder to get SSS there. The SSS legato is also especially wonky in this register at this tempo.
> 
> There are a million of these little things that make up the signature of a library. But even in this quick rendition and the way it performs the little crescendo, I feel the library inspiring me in a certain direction, and it is a quite different direction from SSS. In that respect BSS is complementary to SSS. Will that complementation be useful? For me I think the answer is yes. We shall see.
> 
> NB: Although I love the sound of these giant string sections, I tend to prefer smaller string sections—SCS is the library I grab first—when I'm working on orchestra stuff.


I feel like this would sound a lot better if done with AROOF to be perfectly honest. I do absolutely get what you mean but that's the exact area where Abbey Road One really shows its strenghts in my opinion. (At the very laeast once they're going to introduce the legato patch as heard in the preview video for the expansion launch in January.)

At this point I'm pretty much out even for the pattern legato, there's just something with BSS that sounds very synthetic and fake to me as a Cello player and that's a surprise considering I own, use and love quite a lot of OT libraries (L.A. Sessions, BS and Maenad to name only the most recent purchases, JXL Brass, BWW and Special Strings are my go-to libraries, and the Time series is awesome, not to forget the Arks or Babel and Arbos. I was pretty much set to get BSS when they announced it tbh.).

Ps. I'm not trying to generate unfounded hate against BSS, I'm just let down in a massive way.



That just sounds more like real celli/ basses to me and the legato transitions seem much smoother (ironic considering I usually bash Spitfire for their bumpy legati).


----------



## bfreepro

Sounds pretty damn good here so far, violin legato isn’t so smooth but the tone and room sounds great! After watching more, I actually think the violin tone sounds better than the cellos tho lol. Some of the sections do sound a bit off, I donno.


----------



## Eptesicus

mafan said:


> Personally I love this library! Such a great tone. The transition can be uneven at times, but the sound is just too good that I can look past that easily. I still found it easier to program than CSS. Here's a short composition I did with BSS+Phoenix+JXL Brass.




Very nice. Cellos sound great, but the violins ruin it for me. 

Something just doesn't sit right with me on the violin front in all the demos of this that i have heard.


----------



## Ashermusic

Mike T said:


> Seriously, maybe I'm old fashioned but I think there's a point of diminishing returns with this stuff. The time, money, and effort (from both developers and users) that go into wrangling a massive sampling project must eventually become absurd compared to the cost of hiring real players.
> 
> I won't say I'd be happy to be proven wrong, either, because I don't think I would be if suddenly people felt like they could truly (even more than they do now) justify forgoing the real thing, even given the budget.



Mike T, my brotha from another motha!


----------



## dzilizzi

jamwerks said:


> Sounds like more than BSS or CSS you need some SPE(akers)!


Mostly I'm on my phone for these. I know CSS can sound good, but I don't think it is as plonkable as people say it is - at least to me. Maybe it's the noise thing, but most everything I hear using CSS has an annoying buzz unless it has been EQ'd. Some of these BSS samples sound great, others not so much.


----------



## muziksculp

I was expecting the OT Walkthrough Videos to be out by today.

Looks like they are taking their time, hopefully they will have a lot of Videos to show us BSS in detail, and give us some useful tips on how best to use the legatos, and much more.

This is a kind of odd, OT usually has Walkthrough videos with every major library release, this library release is a strange exception.


----------



## jbuhler

Instrugramm said:


> I feel like this would sound a lot better if done with AROOF to be perfectly honest. I do absolutely get what you mean but that's the exact area where Abbey Road One really shows its strenghts in my opinion. (At the very laeast once they're going to introduce the legato patch as heard in the preview video for the expansion launch in January.)
> 
> At this point I'm pretty much out even for the pattern legato, there's just something with BSS that sounds very synthetic and fake to me as a Cello player and that's a surprise considering I own, use and love quite a lot of OT libraries (L.A. Sessions, BS and Maenad to name only the most recent purchases, JXL Brass, BWW and Special Strings are my go-to libraries, and the Time series is awesome, not to forget the Arks or Babel and Arbos. I was pretty much set to get BSS when they announced it tbh.).
> 
> Ps. I'm not trying to generate unfounded hate against BSS, I'm just let down in a massive way.
> 
> 
> 
> That just sounds more like real celli/ basses to me and the legato transitions seem much smoother (ironic considering I usually bash Spitfire for their bumpy legati).



I don’t have AROOF yet but from what I’ve heard in the demos and walkthroughs I can’t imagine it creating this feeling I’ve identified with a moving line until it has legato available. And perhaps it has a similar tone, but I‘d be surprised if it manages what I’m hearing in BBS here since that doesn’t really fall in the SF wheelhouse. But I’m not saying AROOF would’t produce a credible performance or even, once it got legato, that I wouldn’t prefer its performance (I wouldn’t be surprised about that because in general my own music prefers the SF instruments), but only that BBS has many of these distinct elements and they align and cohere, and they cohere in a similar way to how the Arks cohere, and to a lesser extent how the rest of the OT line coheres.



holywilly said:


> I’ve tried to stack BBS and Synchron Strings Pro, BBS’s legato is kind of laggy compared with VSL, especially Violins 2, Viola and Cello. BBS, Violin 1 seems to have the fastest transition that can accompany Synchron Strings Pro very well.


I’ve just played with layering briefly and the legato timing of BBS and SSS sounds reasonable (they don’t fight much) at least in playback. And the overall effect is interesting enough that I have plans to explore the combination more.


----------



## jbuhler

muziksculp said:


> I was expecting the OT Walkthrough Videos to be out by today.
> 
> Looks like they are taking their time, hopefully they will have a lot of Videos to show us BSS in detail, and give us some useful tips on how best to use the legatos, and much more.
> 
> This is a kind of odd, OT usually has Walkthrough videos with every major library release, this library release is a strange exception.


Lots of strange things about this release, like no preorder period for the library and having an extended period when the library is available at the lowest price, and having lots of demos immediately available. I like that aspect of it tbh. But it’s not typical, and it’s odd not to have a walkthrough yet or even a DAWcast of one or two of the demos.


----------



## muziksculp

jbuhler said:


> Lots of strange things about this release, like no preorder period for the library and having an extended period when the library is available at the lowest price, and having lots of demos immediately available. I like that aspect of it tbh. But it’s not typical, and it’s odd not to have a walkthrough yet or even a DAWcast of one or two of the demos.



Yes, plus.. I would have preferred it if they just announced the library, and released it when they had all their videos, and Youtube DAW cast of some demos ready, and as I mentioned in my earlier post, their Sites Audio Player is not doing them, or us any favors, the compression they are using is sucking the life out of all their audio demos.


----------



## ChrisSiuMusic

Just put together a walkthrough/impressions video of the library. Hope it's somewhat useful if you're unsure! Would love to hear your thoughts further @muziksculp.


----------



## muziksculp

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> Just put together a walkthrough/impressions video of the library. Hope it's somewhat useful if you're unsure! Would love to hear your thoughts further @muziksculp.




Hi Chris,

Yes, I saw your video post, but didn't watch it yet, I will do so, and post some more feedback on BSS, which I have. I really like this library, also can play the legatos very smoothly with no bumpiness at all, I will be posting some audio demos of the legatos to show how smooth they are.

Thanks,
Muziksculp


----------



## jbuhler

muziksculp said:


> Yes, plus.. I would have preferred it if they just announced the library, and released it when they had all their videos, and Youtube DAW cast of some demos ready, and as I mentioned in my earlier post, their Sites Audio Player is not doing them, or us any favors, the compression they are using is sucking the life out of all their audio demos.


I’ve not had the issue with the presentation of the demos that others have. Not that I like the compression—really demos (Or a version of all demos) should sound as close to the sound the library produces as possible—but what appeals to me about BBS comes across in most of the demos. And I’m not disappointed that the library I got sounds better than the demos. I do wonder if they ran into problems in making the walkthroughs, and if so, what the nature of those problems was.



muziksculp said:


> I will be posting some audio demos of the legatos to show how smooth they are.



I find some of them to be smooth and some to be bumpy, and it depends on tempo and dynamics. And it helps to follow @ProfoundSilence’s advice and turn down the volume of the legato transition.


----------



## muziksculp

jbuhler said:


> And it helps to follow @ProfoundSilence’s advice and turn down the volume of the legato transition.



How much does he advice to turn the legato transitions volume down ? a lot of db's or just a slight bit ?


----------



## jbuhler

muziksculp said:


> How much does he advice to turn the legato transitions volume down ? a lot of db's or just a slight bit ?


Just a bit. 1db is what sticks in my head but I’m not at the DAW to check and I couldn’t find the post with a quick search. Maybe it was on a different thread.


----------



## bfreepro

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> Just put together a walkthrough/impressions video of the library. Hope it's somewhat useful if you're unsure! Would love to hear your thoughts further @muziksculp.



Hey Chris  posted your vid up there already as soon as I saw it. First walkthru FTW


----------



## muziksculp

Anyone figure out what is the difference between the patches with the '+ LEGATO' attached to them ?

i.e.

(Pattern Legato + LEGATO), vs (Pattern Legato) ?


----------



## ChrisSiuMusic

bfreepro said:


> Hey Chris  posted your vid up there already as soon as I saw it. First walkthru FTW


Appreciate it man! Just saw it.


----------



## mafan

muziksculp said:


> Anyone figure out what is the difference between the patches with the '+ LEGATO' attached to them ?
> 
> i.e.
> 
> (Pattern Legato + LEGATO), vs (Pattern Legato) ?


That confused me too 😂 I think having +LEG is just that the legato function is turned on by default. Without it, even if it says “pattern legato”, you can still play chords with it. You can always turn on the legato later with the sine player and make them the same essentially.


----------



## JM Composer

Sovereign said:


> Let me just reiterate here in general that, if the criticism is valid, I believe it is important to press that issue quickly and often. It would be wrong to lull any developer into the false sense of security that their product is faultless. And there is quite a bit to complain about, already seen multiple issues. What sort of quality control is there at OT when stuff like this slips through? Ugh.



Hi Sovereign, just wanted to address your question with an update on my experience trying to get an error fixed on OT Berlin Woodwinds. 

In March 2019, I identified the below errors in the Clarinet 1 Multi trills - the notes are wrong. This was acknowledged by the OT rep as a real issue, but he said it was complicated to solve and would have to be fixed in a major update. Those of you who have Berlin WW could check for yourselves. This really bothered me because WW trills beyond half-step whole-step was a big selling point. As you can see it's not a couple keys; there are LOT of errors. 




> For this list, assume that middle C = C3
> 
> TR+3 Articulation
> Bb2 through Eb3
> Bb3
> Bb4
> 
> TR+4 Articulation
> Ab2
> A2
> Ab3
> A3
> Ab4
> A4
> 
> TR+5 Articulation
> Bb2
> Eb3
> Bb4
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

October 2019, I sent a followup, and he said that it would be fixed when things were updated to SINE.

July 2020, sent a followup, got a different rep, who declined to provide a timeframe of when things would move to SINE (which is fine, that's a business decision), but didn't respond to my point about the Clarinet Trills.

Last week, after the premiere event, I wrote an email expressing my excitement about things moving to SINE in 2021, and just wanted a quick reassurance that the Clarinet trill errors was on the agenda. I haven't heard back yet. 

I almost impulse bought BSS during the premiere event, esp. with the crossgrade offer, but decided to hold off until I received a reply from them about the Clarinet trills. Now after hearing the demos on this thread, I'm glad I hesitated. I felt their official demo was good, but not "next level" good (considering they probably got a really skillful demo maker). If you look away from the visuals of orchestral players doing all those vibratos (which sort of "fool" your ear) you'll realize that those rich vibratos aren't there, and it's sort of flat tones in the upper strings. With Modern Scoring Strings coming out, and possibly Cinematic Woodwinds, I'll consider all my options and where to spend my limited pot of money. 

I will certainly hold OT responsible for this fix, because I paid good money for BWW, and have been a loyal customer. If they don't fix those trills in the SINE update, I'm really gonna yell about it. 

Hope that answers your question about their quality control. Will update you all if I do hear back.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

JM Composer said:


> Hi Sovereign, just wanted to address your question with an update on my experience trying to get an error fixed on OT Berlin Woodwinds.
> 
> In March 2019, I identified the below errors in the Clarinet 1 Multi trills - the notes are wrong. This was acknowledged by the OT rep as a real issue, but he said it was complicated to solve and would have to be fixed in a major update. Those of you who have Berlin WW could check for yourselves. This really bothered me because WW trills beyond half-step whole-step was a big selling point. As you can see it's not a couple keys; there are LOT of errors.
> 
> 
> 
> October 2019, I sent a followup, and he said that it would be fixed when things were updated to SINE.
> 
> July 2020, sent a followup, got a different rep, who declined to provide a timeframe of when things would move to SINE (which is fine, that's a business decision), but didn't respond to my point about the Clarinet Trills.
> 
> Last week, after the premiere event, I wrote an email expressing my excitement about things moving to SINE in 2021, and just wanted a quick reassurance that the Clarinet trill errors was on the agenda. I haven't heard back yet.
> 
> I almost impulse bought BSS during the premiere event, esp. with the crossgrade offer, but decided to hold off until I received a reply from them about the Clarinet trills. Now after hearing the demos on this thread, I'm glad I hesitated. I felt their official demo was good, but not "next level" good (considering they probably got a really skillful demo maker). If you look away from the visuals of orchestral players doing all those vibratos (which sort of "fool" your ear) you'll realize that those rich vibratos aren't there, and it's sort of flat tones in the upper strings. With Modern Scoring Strings coming out, and possibly Cinematic Woodwinds, I'll consider all my options and where to spend my limited pot of money.
> 
> I will certainly hold OT responsible for this fix, because I paid good money for BWW, and have been a loyal customer. If they don't fix those trills in the SINE update, I'm really gonna yell about it.
> 
> Hope that answers your question about their quality control. Will update you all if I do hear back.


I've been *really* disappointed with their bug fixing, quality control and consistency. I remember when BWW Revive came out, flute II didn't have runs like the others and a rep on the forum was like Oh don't worry *Wink wink* we've got something special planned *wink wink*.

So anyway there's still no runs legato for flute II.

I am hoping that once they port everything to SINE, they can work on smaller bug fixes and push them out faster than what they are doing currently.


----------



## JM Composer

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> I've been *really* disappointed with their bug fixing, quality control and consistency. I remember when BWW Revive came out, flute II didn't have runs like the others and a rep on the forum was like Oh don't worry *Wink wink* we've got something special planned *wink wink*.
> 
> So anyway there's still no runs legato for flute II.
> 
> I am hoping that once they port everything to SINE, they can work on smaller bug fixes and push them out faster than what they are doing currently.



Yep, you're right; I just checked my flute II and it's missing playable runs. Thanks for adding your voice to the mix. Enough clamor might create a tipping point, so that this otherwise reputable company, selling not-cheap sample libraries, takes errors seriously. 

Anyway, I'll get off the soapbox for now (being that this is a BSS thread) and see if either 
1. they reply with reassurances or 
2. they actually fix things in SINE. 

If they don't, I'll be back on the soapbox.


----------



## Peter Satera

To give my 2cents. I reported a single sample issue to OT recently using the JXL's Cimbassi, where I heard some human voices in the tail of a FFF sample. They confirmed it was audible and are going to fix it. I've had a few other things crop up and they've been great. 

Other sample developers when I heard these sort of artifacts, some of which are really prominent (and some on a solo instrument), when reporting them (and showing them) during an introductory period told me to basically deal with it.

On topic, @ChrisSiuMusic thank you so much for the walkthrough. I think this is exactly what I wanted to see and shows a really nice low end. Some more expressiveness would be nice in the violins, but I personally really like what has been shown.


----------



## Virtuoso

I can see why OT products are expensive. They must spend a fortune getting all the players drunk before recording the legatos.



Just octaves on the Viola default Sustains+Leg patch. Found it within a couple of minutes by just playing a few notes. Do they do any quality testing at all?

No wonder you have to waive your legal right to withdrawal before getting a chance to actually try the product. That rather specious practice ought to be a red flag - if OT aren't prepared to stand by the quality of one of their products, licensed and running under their own player...


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Virtuoso said:


> I can see why OT products are expensive. They must spend a fortune getting all the players drunk before recording the legatos.
> 
> 
> 
> Just octaves on the Viola default Sustains+Leg patch. Found it within a couple of minutes by just playing a few notes. Do they do any quality testing at all?





What are you playing to get this?


----------



## muziksculp

ProfoundSilence said:


> What are you playing to get this?



Most likely CSS


----------



## Virtuoso

ProfoundSilence said:


> What are you playing to get this?


As above - just octaves on the Viola default Sustains+Leg patch. Happens from D to B.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

Peter Satera said:


> To give my 2cents. I reported a single sample issue to OT recently using the JXL's Cimbassi, where I heard some human voices in the tail of a FFF sample. They confirmed it was audible and are going to fix it. I've had a few other things crop up and they've been great.


Did they actually fix any of them?


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

muziksculp said:


> Most likely CSS


quite an insult to one of the most consistent and caring developers around.


----------



## Bman70

Virtuoso said:


> I can see why OT products are expensive. They must spend a fortune getting all the players drunk before recording the legatos.
> 
> 
> 
> Just octaves on the Viola default Sustains+Leg patch. Found it within a couple of minutes by just playing a few notes. Do they do any quality testing at all?
> 
> No wonder you have to waive your legal right to withdrawal before getting a chance to actually try the product. That rather specious practice ought to be a red flag - if OT aren't prepared to stand by the quality of one of their products, licensed and running under their own player...




You wouldn't expect any legato transition from a note to its lower octave, the interval is too wide.. now portamento would be a different story. But if you're actually only playing two notes in each octave pair, then what sounds like a short "grace note" preceding the second note is definitely strange.


----------



## Casiquire

I kind of thought the flute 2 wasn't SUPPOSED to have playable runs (not all the instruments do) but nope, the site says they do! I hope that gets fixed with the SINE port soon too


----------



## Virtuoso

Bman70 said:


> what sounds like a short "grace note" preceding the second note is definitely strange.


That's what I'm highlighting - the crafty sample editor has sneaked another bonus easter egg in there.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

Virtuoso said:


> That's what I'm highlighting - the crafty sample editor has sneaked another bonus easter egg in there.


Next Gen Sampling:
"We've managed to fit more notes in a single interval than any other developer"


----------



## Bman70

Virtuoso said:


> That's what I'm highlighting - the crafty sample editor has sneaked another bonus easter egg in there.
> 
> I love paying hundreds of dollars to be a f*cking beta tester for supposedly premium products.



You might feel better if you read the Vista thread... wherein we learn that such noises and artifacts are actually the coveted "human touch," which has eluded most sample developers and even most live performers.


----------



## jbuhler

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Did they actually fix any of them?


Historically OT has been very slow about fixing issues like this. Their maintenance on Sine instruments seems better, but Capsule instruments rarely got updates.

There are a number of issues with BSS that I think will get an update sooner rather than later, because they are egregious, but in general i presume OT instruments won’t receive substantive updates.


----------



## coprhead6

Virtuoso said:


> I can see why OT products are expensive. They must spend a fortune getting all the players drunk before recording the legatos.
> 
> 
> 
> Just octaves on the Viola default Sustains+Leg patch. Found it within a couple of minutes by just playing a few notes. Do they do any quality testing at all?
> 
> No wonder you have to waive your legal right to withdrawal before getting a chance to actually try the product. That rather specious practice ought to be a red flag - if OT aren't prepared to stand by the quality of one of their products, licensed and running under their own player...





Violist here....
That’s objectively difficult and it’s bad viola writing. Octave shifts from the highest register are going to sound bad unless the London Symphony had the music ahead of time. I’m not surprised it sounds wonky.


----------



## Raphioli

I really hope/wish OT doesn't become one of those companies which continue on pushing products out while making fixes low priority.

Also, I hope this thread stays civil, without going in to that drama zone territory like a few pages back.
Don't get me wrong, I think its very important to voice these concerns (as well as praising when they do good) or else devs would just become more and more use to it.
But it should be done civilly IMHO.

Believe me I know the frustration, because I've voiced my concerns about a different developer here a few years ago.


----------



## ChrisSiuMusic

Peter Satera said:


> To give my 2cents. I reported a single sample issue to OT recently using the JXL's Cimbassi, where I heard some human voices in the tail of a FFF sample. They confirmed it was audible and are going to fix it. I've had a few other things crop up and they've been great.
> 
> Other sample developers when I heard these sort of artifacts, some of which are really prominent (and some on a solo instrument), when reporting them (and showing them) during an introductory period told me to basically deal with it.
> 
> On topic, @ChrisSiuMusic thank you so much for the walkthrough. I think this is exactly what I wanted to see and shows a really nice low end. Some more expressiveness would be nice in the violins, but I personally really like what has been shown.


So welcome!


----------



## muziksculp

Virtuoso said:


> I can see why OT products are expensive. They must spend a fortune getting all the players drunk before recording the legatos.
> 
> 
> 
> Just octaves on the Viola default Sustains+Leg patch. Found it within a couple of minutes by just playing a few notes. Do they do any quality testing at all?
> 
> No wonder you have to waive your legal right to withdrawal before getting a chance to actually try the product. That rather specious practice ought to be a red flag - if OT aren't prepared to stand by the quality of one of their products, licensed and running under their own player...




@Virtuoso ,

I was just joking with my 'It must be CSS' post. So, that shouldn't be taken seriously. 

But, seriously, I checked, and I agree, the Octaves of the Violas in the higher register playing at high-dynamics are very off-pitch, they need a new tuner. 

Whatever... Hopefully they will release an update to BSS to fix this, and possibly other details that need to be improved. I have a feeling they rushed BSS release, that imho was a big mistake, proof is they don't have any video walkthroughs even after a few days since it has been released. I wonder what they are thinking at OT HQ 

Thanks for discovering this issue.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## Virtuoso

coprhead6 said:


> Violist here....
> That’s objectively difficult and it’s bad viola writing. Octave shifts from the highest register are going to sound bad unless the London Symphony had the music ahead of time. I’m not surprised it sounds wonky.


I'm not suggesting the players actually slipped that extra semitone in - it's clearly sloppy sample editing.

Like the weird extra intervals I just found in the Marcato shorts. One of the round robins even has a fifth - ideal if you want to slip a highland jig into one of your symphonic lines.

Or the pizzicato timing which is quite ragged.


----------



## muziksculp

coprhead6 said:


> Violist here....
> That’s objectively difficult and it’s bad viola writing. Octave shifts from the highest register are going to sound bad unless the London Symphony had the music ahead of time. I’m not surprised it sounds wonky.



So, do you think this is normal for a Viola Section Octave shift Up/Down in that highest register ? I didn't know that was a difficult shift for them. If it is, then they captured more realism, but I noticed the issue more on the higher dynamics, and less on the softer-mid dynamics. How do you explain that ?


----------



## holywilly

BSS pro probably in 2 years, learned from Austrian developer.


----------



## lettucehat

holywilly said:


> BSS pro probably in 2 years, learned from Austrian developer.



They're learning by example - marketing from Spitfire, and string legato from VSL.


----------



## synergy543

ProfoundSilence said:


> What are you playing to get this?


If you play viola octaves with consecutive notes going down from the top (D5-D4, C#5-C#4, etc.) with Sustains+LEG, they are pretty f#$&#*ed up. I'm sure it just has something to do with the legato script as they ALL have the same problem so its likely just a matter of waiting for a software update.


----------



## Bman70

synergy543 said:


> If you play viola octaves with consecutive notes going down from the top (D5-D4, C#5-C#4, etc.) with Sustains+LEG, they are pretty f#$&#*ed up. I'm sure it just has something to do with the legato script as they ALL have the same problem so its likely just a matter of waiting for a software update.



I wouldn't generally think to write a passage like that using legato articulation, since the transition is not smooth at that interval. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to use the Sustain only patch? Then again ideally, a Legato patch should just act like a sustain patch when playing that passage, and not try to insert some smoothing transition.


----------



## Instrugramm

I did a very short mock-up (took me about 10 Minutes in total) with the Afflatus Mysterious Violins 1,2 and Viola Legato to see how they compare... they can't deliver on realistic ostinato patterns either, I guess we'll have to wait and see what Spitfire is gonna bring to the table next.

Ps. The bass lines for the first one are Afflatus lush Celli/ Basses Legato and Tenuto articulations. No effects, compression etc. were added, everything straigt out of the box. In the second version they're replaced by the celli and basses of HZS.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

edit: I found what you're talking about. 

my guess is that it's just a bug - everything past the high Bb seems shifted. 

Also, as the violist in this thread mentioned, octave jumps downward at the extreme register is not going to be a good time for anyone involved.

Good news is, for now - the pattern and rapid legato don't have an issue there, so if you REALLY NEED legato octave jumps for some reason at the top of the fretboard on their highest string - you can still do that with the other two legato transitions.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

ProfoundSilence said:


> I'm asking for the MIDI that you are using to create that sound, because what it sounds like isn't even a feasible line to write


measured thirds - any school kid could play that.


----------



## coprhead6

6:34 -- 7:05

This is a common audition excerpt for viola. This looks simple on paper but is very difficult to play in tune. Hopefully this will inform what you are trying to pull off with these sample libraries when you are worried about their quality and scripting.

I'm personally terrified of this excerpt


----------



## CT

coprhead6 said:


> 6:34 -- 7:05
> 
> This is a common audition excerpt for viola. This looks simple on paper but is very difficult to play in tune. Hopefully this will inform what you are trying to pull off with these sample libraries when you are worried about their quality and scripting.




I think this forum could in general do with more "reality checks" from people who play the actual instruments, like this.


----------



## Virtuoso

coprhead6 said:


> This is a common audition excerpt for viola. This looks simple on paper but is very difficult to play in tune.


It's very interesting to get the perspective of an actual player, but I don't think a sample library should have challenging intonation!  It's just samples and scripting - it should be able to play in tune, even if a real life player would struggle.


----------



## Virtuoso

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> On the subject of octaves, don't write them for cello either. Total nightmare.


 It's not just octaves. There are some wonky fifths in there too:-



By the way, I'm not actively looking for issues here. I'm actually just playing the library, trying out the articulations, getting a feel for the dynamics etc. But then something odd will stop me in my tracks and take me out of the zone.

And then I can't help but think - If I can find multiple issues within a few minutes by just casually playing around, how did they get past every single person who was involved in this release?


----------



## muziksculp

Virtuoso said:


> It's not just octaves. There are some wonky fifths in there too:-




Which patch is that from ?


----------



## Virtuoso

muziksculp said:


> Which patch is that from ?


Same patch - Violas Sustains+Leg, highest dynamic range, G#4-C#4 & G4-C4.


----------



## muziksculp

Virtuoso said:


> Same patch - Violas Sustains+Leg, highest dynamic range, G#4-C#4 & G4-C4.



Ok. Thanks.

I hope someone at OT is following this thread, and taking notes.


----------



## NoamL

Virtuoso said:


> I can see why OT products are expensive. They must spend a fortune getting all the players drunk before recording the legatos.
> 
> 
> 
> Just octaves on the Viola default Sustains+Leg patch. Found it within a couple of minutes by just playing a few notes. Do they do any quality testing at all?
> 
> No wonder you have to waive your legal right to withdrawal before getting a chance to actually try the product. That rather specious practice ought to be a red flag - if OT aren't prepared to stand by the quality of one of their products, licensed and running under their own player...




Worse than one bad sample is the apparent confirmation that this library samples by major 3rd??...


----------



## jbuhler

The more I layer BSS with libraries that have portamento, the more I wish BSS had it. It really opens expressive dimensions. Another interesting revelation: I find BSS layers better with SSS, SCS, HZS, and Afflatus, at least on the violin I legato patch, than it does with BS. The BS and BSS legatos seem to want to fight rather than complement each other.


----------



## muziksculp

NoamL said:


> Worse than one bad sample is the confirmation that this library samples by minor3rd??...



Hmmm... How did you come to that conclusion ?


----------



## Virtuoso

NoamL said:


> Worse than one bad sample is the apparent confirmation that this library samples by minor3rd??...


I'm not sure about that - I think it's whole tones, but that example happened to have two bad samples.


----------



## NoamL

muziksculp said:


> Hmmm... How did you come to that conclusion ?



because these sound like the same sample, just pitch shifted onto 4 different pitches. Most libraries sample by major 2nd so one sample covers 2 pitches.



Virtuoso said:


> I'm not sure about that - I think it's whole tones, but that example happened to have two bad samples.



I think it sounds like the same bad sample but slightly edited differently on the lower 2 notes?


----------



## muziksculp

NoamL said:


> because these are all the same sample, just pitch shifted onto 4 different pitches. Most libraries sample by major 2nd so one sample covers 2 pitches.



But that could just be a mapping error, this issue is not present on all the instruments, even the other types of legatos don't have this issue.

Why would a developer in the caliber of OT sample every minor third ? Makes no sense to me.


----------



## JTB

What!!! This library is only whole tone samples?.


----------



## muziksculp

JTB said:


> What!!! This library is only every second sample. Seriously?



Yes, it's a horrible library, please don't buy it.


----------



## Raphioli

Interesting...
Maybe OT could chime in to clarify this.



muziksculp said:


> Why would a developer in the caliber of OT sample every minor third ?



I remembered another example where Darkestshadow mentioned that Chamber Evolutions from Spitfire was sampled every 5th. So I guess it does happen.


DarkestShadow said:


> Since the main active black friday event has been Olafur Arnalds libraries - here a note about Chamber Evolutions (maybe the others too, don't have those)
> 
> It sounds fantastic... to a degree. Unfortunately the sampling is limited to one unique sample every FIFTH key. So in other words, the samples are stretched across 5 keys.
> Usually the standard is a unique sample every SECOND key.


----------



## JTB

It should be called BSS Lite. 

But seriously, I am surprised by this. Does anyone know how BS is sampled. Because if it is whole tone, I will NOT be downloading it.


----------



## jbuhler

NoamL said:


> because these sound like the same sample, just pitch shifted onto 4 different pitches. Most libraries sample by major 2nd so one sample covers 2 pitches.
> 
> 
> 
> I think it sounds like the same bad sample but slightly edited differently on the lower 2 notes?


I don't understand this argument. It's just two samples, the descending legato sample. If you substitute the pattern legato, it works fine, so it's the two legato transition samples. I'm pretty sure it's diatonic sampling, and two note issues have been the pattern of small problems I've found.


----------



## muziksculp

JTB said:


> It should be called BSS Lite.



Hehe.. Is that a new Beer ?


----------



## holywilly

Really wish OT has the 14 days evaluation period like VSL, seems OT has its own licensing system. I bought this library because the high hope of new legato features. 

Beside the bad samples, the legato transition is so inconsistent across all string section.

However, the tone is very nice.


----------



## CT

Raphioli said:


> I remembered another example where Darkestshadow mentioned that Chamber Evolutions from Spitfire was sampled every 5th. So I guess it does happen.



That's pretty understandable for "effect" type stuff though and makes sense for how something like the EVO grid works. Normal, multisampled instruments though....


----------



## JTB

muziksculp said:


> Hehe.. Is that a new Beer ?


No, that stands for Berlin Sorry-ass Strings.

But seriously, I thought that sampling technique was reserved for budget libraries. But apparently I was mistaken.


----------



## NoamL

@muziksculp ... really curious if you buy every major library and if so, why.

I'll admit to collecting way too many libraries.... Half of my VEP template is strings with a complete build-out of CSS, SSS, CS2, HWS ready to go - and I use all 4 of em for different things. (as well as sometimes odds and ends from Trailer Strings, Adventure Strings, AROOF and Afflatus).

With that, I really can't justify buying a library unless it does 1 of 2 things

1. It sounds _more like_ a real score recorded on LA/UK stages than my template, particularly SSS-in-AIR/HWS-in-(QL Spaces version of)-FOX

2. Makes it significantly easier to do synthestration tasks that my current libraries struggle with & is worth the cost for the "hole" it patches.

That made it really easy to pass on Synchron Strings, the ... other Synchron Strings that released recently (??), and now this Berlin Symphonic Strings. Just listened to some demos and yep, it sounds like a standard large string library, with the sound of Teldex.  Alex's demo is very nice though!

So if you do buy most major releases, I'm curious why. What can't your current libraries do that you really like this library for, etc


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Raphioli said:


> I remembered another example where Darkestshadow mentioned that Chamber Evolutions from Spitfire was sampled every 5th. So I guess it does happen.


Yes, Spitfire's Olafur Arnalds Chamber Evolutions is mapped like this.





I still like the library though.


----------



## muziksculp

JTB said:


> No, that stands for Berlin Sorry-ass Strings.
> 
> But seriously, I thought that sampling technique was reserved for budget libraries. But apparently I was mistaken.



@JTB,

We have no way of knowing at what interval they sampled BSS, so all you read here is speculation, and as I mentioned earlier, you will be better off by not buying this library. Cause it's a Berlin Sorry-Ass Strings library. You don't need it. I also think if you have nothing to contribute here, you might want to switch channels. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## muziksculp

NoamL said:


> @muziksculp ... really curious if you buy every major library and if so, why.



Because I'm a Strings Library addict, and that what I do. Is that a problem for you ?


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

jbuhler said:


> The more I layer BSS with libraries that have portamento, the more I wish BSS had it. It really opens expressive dimensions. Another interesting revelation: I find BSS layers better with SSS, SCS, HZS, and Afflatus, at least on the violin I legato patch, than it does with BS. The BS and BSS legatos seem to want to fight rather than complement each other.


really? That kinda sucks because I was planning to use this w/BS


----------



## Raphioli

I personally feel like it should be mandatory for developers to provide a detailed chart or something of how many dynamic layers/RRs AND if it was chromatically (2 semitones/m3rd etc) sampled for each patch.
Especially because majority of sample libraries are non-refundable.


----------



## muziksculp

Raphioli said:


> I personally feel like it should be mandatory for developers to provide a detailed chart or something of how many dynamic layers/RRs AND if it was chromatically (2 semitones/m3rd etc) sampled for each patch.
> Especially because majority of sample libraries are non-refundable.



I like that idea. 

We should request they add that detail on their library specs. Why not ?


----------



## JTB

muziksculp said:


> @JTB,
> 
> We have no way of knowing at what interval they sampled BSS, so all you read here is speculation, and as I mentioned earlier, you will be better off by not buying this library. Cause it's a Berlin Sorry-Ass Strings library. You don't need it. I also think if you have nothing to contribute here, you might want to switch channels.
> 
> Cheers,
> Muziksculp



Oh, my apologies, I thought it was a confirmed fact that BSS was whole tone sampled. I therefore retract my statement.


----------



## muziksculp

JTB said:


> Oh, my apologies, I thought it was a confirmed fact that BSS was whole tone sampled. I therefore retract my statement.



No problem. I just wish we can make judgments after we know the facts, not before. 

Hopefully OT will shed some more light on this library via walkthroughs, and more info. about it. 

They release a major strings library, and go mute after the big event. Very odd for OT to do that.


----------



## Raphioli

muziksculp said:


> I like that idea.
> 
> We should request they add that detail on their library specs. Why not ?



OT does have something like this, with the number of dynamic layers and RRs. They just need to add how much the samples are stretched to the list.





Berlin Strings - Notes - Orchestral Tools Helpdesk


Berlin Strings is our flagship string library featuring the talents of Berlin's best string players to provide you with an unparalleled assortment of sampled st




orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com





I think OT is one of the few developers which provide such charts.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Love that OT Helpdesk. ❤


----------



## CT

Can't you just look at some of the mapping on the patches to see this? Are they all locked?


----------



## muziksculp

Raphioli said:


> OT does have something like this, with the number of dynamic layers and RRs. They just need to add how much the samples are stretched to the list.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Berlin Strings - Notes - Orchestral Tools Helpdesk
> 
> 
> Berlin Strings is our flagship string library featuring the talents of Berlin's best string players to provide you with an unparalleled assortment of sampled st
> 
> 
> 
> 
> orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think OT is one of the few developers which provide such charts.



Yes, I know about their help desk, but they don't have BSS on it. 

I also think disclosing their sampling interval would be a good idea.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Mike T said:


> Can't you just look at some of the mapping on the patches to see this? Are they all locked?


I think the idea is to get that info before buying. Also, I don't think non-Kontakt samplers let you see the mappings. Just one more reason I love Kontakt.


----------



## jbuhler

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> really? That kinda sucks because I was planning to use this w/BS


You may find it works differently for you. And the two libraries will work together with BS as divisi or half section I think. But they don’t work doubled up as a multi for me. It might be a legato timing thing that is easily addressed. But I don’t like the sound of them played unison. Whereas for all the other cases layering BSS resulted in something I heard real expressive potential in, and often somewhat unexpected properties in the alloy.


----------



## artomatic

My mistake was to not wait for the customary walkthrough videos before taking the plunge.
Playing this library the past couple of days brought out the numerous imperfections I hadn't expected.
Some have been mentioned here already. 
This is too bad since I really like BSS' tone.
First time I've ever been disappointed with OT.
Even sadder is having buyer's remorse.


----------



## CT

Land of Missing Parts said:


> I think the idea is to get that info before buying. Also, I don't think non-Kontakt samplers let you see the mappings. Just one more reason I love Kontakt.



Oh I thought this was Kontakt for some reason.


----------



## jbuhler

Virtuoso said:


> It's not just octaves. There are some wonky fifths in there too:-
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, I'm not actively looking for issues here. I'm actually just playing the library, trying out the articulations, getting a feel for the dynamics etc. But then something odd will stop me in my tracks and take me out of the zone.




Are you reporting these to OT support?


----------



## Virtuoso

jbuhler said:


> Are you reporting these to OT support?


I have all the ones I've found so far noted down - I'll file a bug report tomorrow.


----------



## Virtuoso

artomatic said:


> My mistake was to not wait for the customary walkthrough videos before taking the plunge.
> Playing this library the past couple of days brought out the numerous imperfections I hadn't expected.
> Some have been mentioned here already.
> This is too bad since I really like BSS' tone.
> First time I've ever been disappointed with OT.
> Even sadder is having buyer's remorse.


This is only my second OT library. The first was JXL Brass which I'm extremely happy with, so I was hoping this would serve as a kind of stopgap JXL Strings. So far I'm pretty disappointed - sloppy timings, tuning issues, weird glitches and retriggers, obvious (not smooth) crossfades between dynamic layers. Not the quality I was expecting at all.


----------



## jbuhler

Virtuoso said:


> I have all the ones I've found so far noted down - I'll file a bug report tomorrow.


Did you catch the viola D5-Bb4 and C#-A? I get a bonus continuation when I play it! I'll file the report if you don't want to add it to your list.


----------



## Lionel Schmitt

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Yes, Spitfire's Olafur Arnalds Chamber Evolutions is mapped like this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I still like the library though.


This is not a horror movie picture forum, please don't post such terrors..................


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Sounds like maybe the crossfades (sus > leg > sus) are happening too quickly and just sort of layering on top of each other.


----------



## jbuhler

A temporary workaround to these egregious viola legato issues is to load the pattern legato for the melodic legato in the legato slot on the sustains+Leg patch.


----------



## Bman70

I know lots of people are coming down off the high of purchase, but I'm actually still tempted to buy BSS. I don't know of another library at this price that has that really lush thick sound. I tried mixing HWO to sound that way, but it just doesn't have the substantial density of tone that gives BSS a modern large movie feel. And HWO sometimes sounds smaller than it is. The CSS series are smaller sounding too. I'm sure it's possible to write a piece, as a few have demonstrated here, either avoiding or disguising the bugs sufficiently.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

jbuhler said:


> Did you catch the viola D5-Bb4 and C#-A? I get a bonus continuation when I play it! I'll file the report if you don't want to add it to your list.


Good lord.

NoamL might have been correct RE: sampled 3rds.


----------



## bfreepro

Bman70 said:


> I know lots of people are coming down off the high of purchase, but I'm actually still tempted to buy BSS. I don't know of another library at this price that has that really lush thick sound. I tried mixing HWO to sound that way, but it just doesn't have the substantial density of tone that gives BSS a modern large movie feel. And HWO sometimes sounds smaller than it is. The CSS series are smaller sounding too. I'm sure it's possible to write a piece, as a few have demonstrated here, either avoiding or disguising the bugs sufficiently.


Spitfire Symphonic have a huge, lush sound, it's actually my favorite library of theirs, along with Hans Zimmer strings and Chamber Strings... I think they do strings better than anyone else TBH. Performance legato works wonders too. I've actually been layering Hans Zimmer strings with Nashville Scoring Strings lately, and it's the best string sound I've found to date. Not saying you should run out and buy both of them, but if you own them or want to try layering a chamber library with a larger symphonic, you might be surprised at how good the results sound!

Also, THANK YOU to everyone for posting your thoughts and impressions of BSS. It's gonna be a HARD pass for me now. Yikes.


----------



## holywilly

Bman70 said:


> I know lots of people are coming down off the high of purchase, but I'm actually still tempted to buy BSS. I don't know of another library at this price that has that really lush thick sound. I tried mixing HWO to sound that way, but it just doesn't have the substantial density of tone that gives BSS a modern large movie feel. And HWO sometimes sounds smaller than it is. The CSS series are smaller sounding too. I'm sure it's possible to write a piece, as a few have demonstrated here, either avoiding or disguising the bugs sufficiently.


BSS definitely has the lush sound, however it takes hours to master it, at least for me, still exploring this library. 

Another great alternative is the Abbey Road One from spitfire, if they release sections with legato and other fundamental articulations next year, I’ll get it instantly! I’d say Abbey Road One has the greatest tone among all SP catalog.


----------



## jbuhler

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Good lord.
> 
> NoamL might have been correct RE: sampled 3rds.


No, not thirds. And this one is definitely a programming error—a bizarre programming error to be sure but it doesn't even always trigger from C#-A. Every sample error I've found so far happens with chromatic pairs of notes or intervals, even this one.


----------



## jbuhler

bfreepro said:


> Spitfire Symphonic have a huge, lush sound, it's actually my favorite library of theirs, along with Hans Zimmer strings and Chamber Strings... I think they do strings better than anyone else TBH. Performance legato works wonders too. I've actually been layering Hans Zimmer strings with Nashville Scoring Strings lately, and it's the best string sound I've found to date. Not saying you should run out and buy both of them, but if you own them or want to try layering a chamber library with a larger symphonic, you might be surprised at how good the results sound!
> 
> Also, THANK YOU to everyone for posting your thoughts and impressions of BSS. It's gonna be a HARD pass for me now. Yikes.


The weird thing is that for all the bugs and resulting high learning curve, I really like this library. I like the sound of the library alone aside from the low register of the violin, and I especially like what it's doing when I start layering it with my other libraries, even, maybe even especially, my other big libraries. I hope OT quickly fixes the issues that have been identified.


----------



## Bman70

bfreepro said:


> Spitfire Symphonic have a huge, lush sound, it's actually my favorite library of theirs, along with Hans Zimmer strings and Chamber Strings... I think they do strings better than anyone else TBH. Performance legato works wonders too. I've actually been layering Hans Zimmer strings with Nashville Scoring Strings lately, and it's the best string sound I've found to date. Not saying you should run out and buy both of them, but if you own them or want to try layering a chamber library with a larger symphonic, you might be surprised at how good the results sound!
> 
> Also, THANK YOU to everyone for posting your thoughts and impressions of BSS. It's gonna be a HARD pass for me now. Yikes.



I only own Nucleus and HWO Gold. Listening to demos, I like the BSS sound somewhat better than SSS, sort of modern vs classical tones. Spitfire is more attractive now with their Afterpay option though. I'll have to give HZ a listen. 




holywilly said:


> BSS definitely has the lush sound, however it takes hours to master it, at least for me, still exploring this library.
> 
> Another great alternative is the Abbey Road One from spitfire, if they release sections with legato and other fundamental articulations next year, I’ll get it instantly! I’d say Abbey Road One has the greatest tone among all SP catalog.



I can't really tell from the Abbey Road One demos, lots are mixed orchestral not just strings. So far I'm not liking the tone as much as BSS. Hours to master sounds unfortunate.. but some have said it's easier than CSS so I guess they all have their learning curve.

Maybe someone here will be so desperate to offload their BSS mistake that they'll take $350 for it


----------



## bfreepro

jbuhler said:


> The weird thing is that for all the bugs and resulting high learning curve, I really like this library. I like the sound of the library alone aside from the low register of the violin, and I especially like what it's doing when I start layering it with my other libraries, even, maybe even especially, my other big libraries. I hope OT quickly fixes the issues that have been identified.


I really want to like it too... a dedicated string library recorded at Teldex are the only thing missing for me, as I always use JXL, BWW, Berlin Percs and Harp, Modus, etc. Their strings in TIME and Modus sound so good... so much clarity and the room sounds amazing. But the legato in the Arks and Inspire is very bad IMO, besides the "power legato" in Ark 4, but that's just a chamber size... ugh. lol


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

jbuhler said:


> The weird thing is that for all the bugs and resulting high learning curve, I really like this library. I like the sound of the library alone aside from the low register of the violin, and I especially like what it's doing when I start layering it with my other libraries, even, maybe even especially, my other big libraries. I hope OT quickly fixes the issues that have been identified.


That's good to know. Honestly this should have been an insta-buy for me but I have been really unimpressed with many of the demos and bugs thus far. I think when the walkthrough comes out ill make my final judgement.


----------



## bfreepro

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> That's good to know. Honestly this should have been an insta-buy for me but I have been really unimpressed with many of the demos and bugs thus far. I think when the walkthrough comes out ill make my final judgement.


My thoughts exactly lol.


----------



## Peter Satera

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Did they actually fix any of them?



Sine compatibility, stability. Yes. Cimbassi issue was discovered recently as in 2 weeks ago, and since it's the holiday season I don't expect it anytime soon. But if you see an update to your cimbassi you'll know why.


----------



## jbuhler

bfreepro said:


> I really want to like it too... a dedicated string library recorded at Teldex are the only thing missing for me, as I always use JXL, BWW, Berlin Percs and Harp, Modus, etc. Their strings in TIME and Modus sound so good... so much clarity and the room sounds amazing. But the legato in the Arks and Inspire is very bad IMO, besides the "power legato" in Ark 4, but that's just a chamber size... ugh. lol


I don’t think OT is aiming at the same thing with their string legatos that other developers are. And I wonder why folks are happier with their approach to wind and brass legatos... I do think the issue is as much aesthetic as technical insofar as you can separate those concerns.

I like the sound of Berlin Strings, but find the legato hard to work with, though I generally like the results when I’m done. i like the sound of the Ark string legato too, though it’s very limited. And I find the strings in that library also generally hard to work with so I hardly take the strings from those libraries out. I think BSS might actually solve that problem for the Arks insofar as anyone wants to use those libraries as something more than a collection of instruments. I haven’t yet tested that hypothesis yet. I find BSS even in its current state easier to work with than either BS or the Ark strings. But I do wonder if BSS is a good match for what media composers in particular want out of a library like this. Using something like @NoamL’s very sensible rubric above, it does seem hard to justify unless someone is invested in Teldex rather than LA/London scoring stages.


----------



## markleake

Bman70 said:


> I only own Nucleus and HWO Gold. Listening to demos, I like the BSS sound somewhat better than SSS, sort of modern vs classical tones. Spitfire is more attractive now with their Afterpay option though. I'll have to give HZ a listen.



Listening to that first demo (_The Berlin Story Continues_) on the OT web page again, I still am very unconvinced about BSS. This track seems to try and pull out everything the library has to offer for producing a big symphonic sound, yet for me it only half succeeds.

There's a promise of something very good there. But some of those longs I have to ask myself, "could my other string libs do better?" and I'm afraid the answer is probably yes. Or they sound like they need to be doubled with some good section leaders like CSSS (or anything with strong vibrato) to give them more life.

Only your ears can tell you what you like. But I'd suggest looking at taking a good long look at HZS, SSS, and CS2 also.



Bman70 said:


> Hours to master sounds unfortunate.. but some have said it's easier than CSS so I guess they all have their learning curve.



I wouldn't say CSS is hard. I find CSS easy to get great results from very quickly. I need to spend time adjusting the start notes of the legatos sometimes. Add a bit of EQ sometimes too. But I've never found it slows me down much. It is a very consistent library, and that counts for a lot.


----------



## lucor

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> That's good to know. Honestly this should have been an insta-buy for me but I have been really unimpressed with many of the demos and bugs thus far. I think when the walkthrough comes out ill make my final judgement.


Same for me. I'm quite invested in the Teldex libraries, so this library at 'only' 299€ should be a no-brainer for me, but I'm still hesitating. RR legato for measured trills would have been the biggest reason for me to buy it, but everything I heard from it so far sounds just as 'meh' as the other RR legatos out there.
The only thing that could still push me over the edge at the moment are the shorts. I've never liked the spiccatos in Berlin Strings and these sound a lot better to me. Also the Cellos are just all around great sounding.
But 300 bucks for good shorts and a nice Cello section? Not sure yet...


----------



## Vik

Have any of you checked if the note next to the lowest note is a different sample than the lowest note in BSS? That's important, because if they both use the lowest (open string) note sample, neither of them have a vibrato option.


----------



## JTB

I don't mean to hijack the the thread but there does seem to be some very knowledgeable folks here. I am still on the fence as to whether to begin the download for BS because that will mean NO REFUND. 

In this comparison video Mr McFadden makes this library sound like bagpipes. Maybe it's just the melody he is playing but this is not a good sound at all.


----------



## Casiquire

Virtuoso said:


> It's very interesting to get the perspective of an actual player, but I don't think a sample library should have challenging intonation!  It's just samples and scripting - it should be able to play in tune, even if a real life player would struggle.


I'd actually adore a forum of musicians talking about things like this. Unreasonable expectations, good orchestration that's a joy for them to play, griping about the same old boring style of lines they're constantly asked to play, etc


----------



## Casiquire

Virtuoso said:


> It's very interesting to get the perspective of an actual player, but I don't think a sample library should have challenging intonation!  It's just samples and scripting - it should be able to play in tune, even if a real life player would struggle.


I don't entirely agree. Clearly the sound we're hearing is a bug and should be fixed, but if a passage would have a lot of issues, i want to hear the player struggling a bit. Think of it this way: oboes don't have the most beautiful tone on their lowest note. Trumpets have a hard time playing their top notes quietly. Should sample libraries have their players act differently from the average live player in order to better appeal to users who aren't aware of orchestration challenges and thus give us an unrealistic sounding product? I don't think so. I think they should get the best take they reasonably can but if that still results in some intonation issues here or there, i want that left in. That's how a live player would sound and I'm trying to get as close to how a live player would sound as possible. Especially with libraries like OT or VSL who market toward people who know how to orchestrate, if I'm writing a challenging passage I want to hear a challenging passage


----------



## Robin

JTB said:


> I don't mean to hijack the the thread but there does seem to be some very knowledgeable folks here. I am still on the fence as to whether to begin the download for BS because that will mean NO REFUND.
> 
> In this comparison video Mr McFadden makes this library sound like bagpipes. Maybe it's just the melody he is playing but this is not a good sound at all.



He soloed the "Run Legato" that therefore triggers only the run transition that have a function of "slight detuning" which works quite well on faster runs but is (as seen and heard) disastrous on slower playing. So no, this is not how BS normally sounds.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

JTB said:


> In this comparison video Mr McFadden makes this library sound like bagpipes. Maybe it's just the melody he is playing but this is not a good sound at all.





Here are those bagpipes in action, enjoy!


----------



## muk

JTB said:


> In this comparison video Mr McFadden makes this library sound like bagpipes.



In this case clear user error. He doesn't move the modwhell at all - a surefire way to make any library sound like an organ. Also, as Robin noted, he selected a wrong the wrong legato for the task. This video is no indication how the library sounds when it is used correctly. It's easy to make any library sound bad if not used in a musical way.


----------



## Soundbed

muk said:


> In this case clear user error. He doesn't move the modwhell at all - a surefire way to make any library sound like an organ. Also, as Robin noted, he selected a wrong the wrong legato for the task. This video is no indication how the library sounds when it is used correctly. It's easy to make any library sound bad if not used in a musical way.


I learn plenty comparing and contrasting libraries without moving the modwheel. I find it a more neutral "test" in many circumstances. Of course, it has limitations too. But it quickly reveals some of a library's weaknesses, and sometimes a library's strengths as well.


----------



## Ashermusic

muk said:


> In this case clear user error. He doesn't move the modwhell at all - a surefire way to make any library sound like an organ. Also, as Robin noted, he selected a wrong the wrong legato for the task. This video is no indication how the library sounds when it is used correctly. It's easy to make any library sound bad if not used in a musical way.




This has been going on for a long time. Someone makes a video about a new library, chooses the wrong patch for what he/she is trying to perform, either doesn't understand or disregards the intended MIDI cc usage, etc.

While they are not ill-intended, they do real harm.

Bottom line, if you don't know what the f*#k you are doing, don't do it!


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

JTB said:


> I don't mean to hijack the the thread but there does seem to be some very knowledgeable folks here. I am still on the fence as to whether to begin the download for BS because that will mean NO REFUND.
> 
> In this comparison video Mr McFadden makes this library sound like bagpipes. Maybe it's just the melody he is playing but this is not a good sound at all.




"I don't mean to be rude and I'm sorry but" I haven't seen a single video from this user that sounded good. No CC movement, sometimes the legato transitions aren't even properly triggered. I'm sure his intentions are good but... Well, I don't get it.


----------



## shawnsingh

JTB said:


> I don't mean to hijack the the thread but there does seem to be some very knowledgeable folks here. I am still on the fence as to whether to begin the download for BS because that will mean NO REFUND.
> 
> In this comparison video Mr McFadden makes this library sound like bagpipes. Maybe it's just the melody he is playing but this is not a good sound at all.






Robin said:


> He soloed the "Run Legato" that therefore triggers only the run transition that have a function of "slight detuning" which works quite well on faster runs but is (as seen and heard) disastrous on slower playing. So no, this is not how BS normally sounds.



Also non-vibrato at the time linked in the video. Nonvib is uncommon and does sound like phasey harmonics.

So yeah, no cc variation, fingered legato samples, and nonvib - expected to sound weird.


----------



## jbuhler

Ashermusic said:


> This has been going on for a long time. Someone makes a video about a new library, chooses the wrong patch for what he/she is trying to perform, either doesn't understand or disregards the intended MIDI cc usage, etc.
> 
> While they are not ill-intended, they do real harm.
> 
> Bottom line, if you don't know what the f*#k you are doing, don't do it!


Yes, I agree in principle, but the absence of a real walkthrough by OT puts everyone in a bit of a quandary.


----------



## prodigalson

Soundbed said:


> I learn plenty comparing and contrasting libraries without moving the modwheel. I find it a more neutral "test" in many circumstances. Of course, it has limitations too. But it quickly reveals some of a library's weaknesses, and sometimes a library's strengths as well.



......


----------



## Ashermusic

jbuhler said:


> Yes, I agree in principle, but the absence of a real walkthrough by OT puts everyone in a bit of a quandary.




So wait until there is one to make judgement. No walkthrough is better than a bad walkthrough. Listening to the demos will tell you more than a bad walkthrough.


----------



## Secret Soundworks

bfreepro said:


> Spitfire Symphonic have a huge, lush sound, it's actually my favorite library of theirs, along with Hans Zimmer strings and Chamber Strings... I think they do strings better than anyone else TBH. Performance legato works wonders too. I've actually been layering Hans Zimmer strings with Nashville Scoring Strings lately, and it's the best string sound I've found to date. Not saying you should run out and buy both of them, but if you own them or want to try layering a chamber library with a larger symphonic, you might be surprised at how good the results sound!
> 
> Also, THANK YOU to everyone for posting your thoughts and impressions of BSS. It's gonna be a HARD pass for me now. Yikes.



Any chance you could post an example of how NSS and HZS sound layered? Would be interested to hear them together


----------



## NoamL

Bman70 said:


> The CSS series are smaller sounding too.



Yeah, BSS is actually the largest sampled strings currently available (in a traditional orchestra setup not like HZS & Majestica). 68 strings is huge, in context it's more than twice as much as Mozart and Beethoven wrote for, and John Williams usually calls for 60-65 on his LARGEST scores!

It also puts BSS into a category of libraries with relatively little competition, here's a quick roundup of the 55+ category:

Berlin Symphonic Strings (18 / 16 / 14 / 12 / 8) = 68
LA Scoring Strings (16 / 16 / 12 / 10 / 8) = 62
Spitfire Symphonic Strings (16 / 14 / 12 / 10 / 8) = 60
Hollywood Strings (16 / 14 / 10 / 10 / 7) = 57
CineStrings (16 / 12 / 10 / 10 / 7) = 55

Usually the point of calling for 60+ strings is to play something like this:





@Robin 's example was eye opening! The BSS library doesn't have this "Affected" tone. It sounds like it was played with a "standard" musicality. That is not a bad thing. But what we are calling, for lack of a better word, "lushness" comes from the musical intention of the players as much as their number.

IMO you get that appropriate lushness of tone from CSS despite "only" 35 musicians.


----------



## ism

Soundbed said:


> I learn plenty comparing and contrasting libraries without moving the modwheel. I find it a more neutral "test" in many circumstances. Of course, it has limitations too. But it quickly reveals some of a library's weaknesses, and sometimes a library's strengths as well.




“Neutral’ here reads like ‘devoid of musicality’ . I agree there is some information to be gleaned form ‘neutral’ modwheel-less performances. But surely this is about 1% as important as understanding the actual musicality of the library? Maybe that’s just me.


----------



## Soundbed

ism said:


> “Neutral’ here reads like ‘devoid of musicality’ . I agree there is some information to be gleaned form ‘neutral’ modwheel-less performances. But surely this is about 1% as important as understanding the actual musicality of the library? Maybe that’s just me.



For sure, it's probably only 1% for a lot of people. I am interested in how people approach new sampling products.

I tend to look for errors first. What does it do poorly? What should I avoid? Maybe it seems backwards but it's my training.

There's a purpose to composing a demo, and there's a purpose (for me) to exploring the library's behavior in response to different MIDI inputs (variables) one at a time, as a test.

Pitch and MIDI velocity are two variables. With legato, some patches do something with velocity (add spiccato overlay or change legato speed) and other libraries do nothing. Exploring transitions between notes using only pitch and velocity without mod wheel is an important test I do with every legato patch for every new strings library I buy.

That said, I have a history as a tester (8 years software QA for a music notation company) so that affects my approach to "testing".


----------



## jbuhler

Ashermusic said:


> So wait until there is one to make judgement. No walkthrough is better than a bad walkthrough. Listening to the demos will tell you more than a bad walkthrough.


I’m just saying OT needs to shoulder some of the blame here. If they weren’t ready with walkthroughs and stuff they should have delayed the release, because the void will be filled in their absence.


----------



## muziksculp

jbuhler said:


> I’m just saying OT needs to shoulder some of the blame here. If they weren’t ready with walkthroughs and stuff they should have delayed the release, because the void will be filled in their absence.



Yes, exactly !

That's what I have been saying for a while. I wonder what OT is thinking about this release ? 

Very odd.


----------



## ism

Soundbed said:


> For sure, it's probably only 1% for a lot of people. I am interested in how people approach new sampling products.
> 
> I tend to look for errors first. What does it do poorly? What should I avoid? Maybe it seems backwards but it's my training.
> 
> There's a purpose to composing a demo, and there's a purpose (for me) to exploring the library's behavior in response to different MIDI inputs (variables) one at a time, as a test.
> 
> Pitch and MIDI velocity are two variables. With legato, some patches do something with velocity (add spiccato overlay or change legato speed) and other libraries do nothing. Exploring transitions between notes using only pitch and velocity without mod wheel is an important test I do with every legato patch for every new strings library I buy.
> 
> That said, I have a history as a tester (8 years software QA for a music notation company) so that affects my approach to "testing".



Ah yes, that makes perfect sense from in a QA context. And there’s lots of value in such a principled separation if concerns. 

I guess I’d argue that what ultimately matters is the musicality of phrases, which is more than the sum if its parts. (In process calculus terms, the phase space we’re interested in isn't easily decomposabily)


----------



## jbuhler

My experience learning the library is that the library is much buggier than most new releases (though still very useable) and in practice the library sounds better and is more rewarding to work with than where the consensus opinion seems to be settling. But I also like the sound in most of the official demos, which many dislike, so mileage may vary. The value proposition side of the library, compared to what other large string section libraries have to offer, is a more difficult call. I won’t be able to fully assess that for myself until I get to the point of working it into some compositions (as opposed to the noodles and brief mock-ups I’ve done to learn its behavior and sweet spots).

I’ll add that I’m pretty sure it’s sampled in whole steps. Every issue I’ve found has affected pairs of notes or, in the case of legato transitions, pairs of intervals. And I’ve found no triples.


----------



## Zero&One

whitewasteland said:


> Well, I don't get it.



We've a good bagpipe library from it. Glass half full


----------



## prodigalson

jbuhler said:


> I’ll add that I’m pretty sure it’s sampled in whole steps. Every issue I’ve found has affected pairs of notes or, in the case of legato transitions, pairs of intervals. And I’ve found no triples.



its 100% sampled in whole steps. Unless they ASKED the players to play non-vib on the pitch a whole step above their lowest open string. Lol


----------



## Soundbed

bfreepro said:


> But the legato in the Arks and Inspire is very bad IMO, besides the "power legato" in Ark 4, but that's just a chamber size... ugh. lol



Hey Brian I was playing around with Ark 2 legato yesterday, to see if I could get a bit of the BSS sound from a product I already own, and it's not too bad. Especially if you stay in the lower registers. (The Ark 1 legatos are fairly heavy handed of course but they are also only octaves, so....)


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

prodigalson said:


> its 100% sampled in whole steps. Unless they ASKED the players to play non-vib on the pitch a whole step above their lowest open string. Lol


I think the question is whether it was sampled in intervals greater than whole steps, so wouldn't you want to check a whole+half step for the non-vib?


----------



## Bman70

markleake said:


> Listening to that first demo (_The Berlin Story Continues_) on the OT web page again, I still am very unconvinced about BSS. This track seems to try and pull out everything the library has to offer for producing a big symphonic sound, yet for me it only half succeeds.
> 
> There's a promise of something very good there. But some of those longs I have to ask myself, "could my other string libs do better?" and I'm afraid the answer is probably yes. Or they sound like they need to be doubled with some good section leaders like CSSS (or anything with strong vibrato) to give them more life.
> 
> Only your ears can tell you what you like. But I'd suggest looking at taking a good long look at HZS, SSS, and CS2 also.




Spent some time listening to demos, and HZS is to me probably the closest generally to BSS sound. Either would fill that spot in my sound repertoire. However at $800 HZ had better be at least 1.64 times as good.  

I don't necessarily want to judge BSS based on bugs that could be ironed out in an update. However I'm not encouraged by the apparent absence of reassurance from OT in this thread.


----------



## dzilizzi

I wonder if BSS wasn't quite ready but they booked the location and had the whole presentation ready to go, so they felt they had to go through with it. They usually have a preorder period and release a walkthrough just before the library is ready to go. So either this didn't come out like they hoped and they are just trying to get away with releasing something not up to their standards or they are busy trying to fix things before making a walkthrough. Hopefully the latter.


----------



## Mikay

So far, I have only heard examples that were more on the calmer romantic side or pieces where the strings are more pushed to the back. I miss some "bite" in most examples. I would love to hear something like the Hidalgo theme where the strings get really present in the foreground:


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

NoamL said:


> Yeah, BSS is actually the largest sampled strings currently available (in a traditional orchestra setup not like HZS & Majestica).



You forgot VSL Appassionata Strings (20/20/14/12/10). Or do only wet libraries count?


----------



## muziksculp

dzilizzi said:


> I wonder if BSS wasn't quite ready but they booked the location and had the whole presentation ready to go, so they felt they had to go through with it. They usually have a preorder period and release a walkthrough just before the library is ready to go. So either this didn't come out like they hoped and they are just trying to get away with releasing something not up to their standards or they are busy trying to fix things before making a walkthrough. Hopefully the latter.



I think it was a mistake for OT to rush the release of BSS if they were not ready with supporting videos, and to be engaged in forums after it was released to answer some questions. They are completely absent. They could have waited until they had all supporting media ready, and then released it, we are waiting for Berlin Series SINE version anyways.. so we could have waited for BSS, and maybe they could have polished it a bit further before rushing to release it. 

Most of the other things they mentioned in their Big Event were thing we can expect to happen, not a single Berlin Series library was made available in SINE format, then they announce BSS, and you would think it would be the usual scenario OT goes through after a major release like this, but.. NO, what we get is total silence.


----------



## Michael Antrum

muziksculp said:


> I think it was a mistake for OT to rush the release of BSS if they were not ready with supporting videos, and to be engaged in forums after it was released to answer some questions. They are completely absent. They could have waited until they had all supporting media ready, and then released it, we are waiting for Berlin Series SINE version anyways.. so we could have waited for BSS, and maybe they could have polished it a bit further before rushing to release it.
> 
> Most of the other things they mentioned in their Big Event were thing we can expect to happen, not a single Berlin Series library was made available in SINE format, then they announce BSS, and you would think it would be the usual scenario OT goes through after a major release like this, but.. NO, what we get is total silence.



But it's the way OT always work. The walkthroughs always come at the death of the intro offers.....


----------



## Living Fossil

Honestly, the question i ask myself after having listened to several demos, is:
How would the comments in this thread be if this library had been released by 8dio?
I guess it would be a complete slaughtering.

So, my impression (based on what i've heard, i'm quite sure i will not buy it) is that even in more elaborate demos the strings sound quite often (specially when exposed), as if they were mixed with a Solina String Ensemble. I guess that's a usual problem of large sections playing vibrato without musical context. But honestly, from a string library that's released 2020 i think one could expect more.
Personally, i think a higher prize tag in combination with a more refined quality would be more appealing (at least to me...)


----------



## dzilizzi

Michael Antrum said:


> But it's the way OT always work. The walkthroughs always come at the death of the intro offers.....


But the intro offers generally are pre-release not after.


----------



## muziksculp

Michael Antrum said:


> But it's the way OT always work. The walkthroughs always come at the death of the intro offers.....



You have a point. So... We might have to wait until Jan. 4th. Since the Intro offer ends Jan. 3rd. 

But regardless, I still think it would make more sense to have the support videos ready when a product is released, not when the intro offer ends. Just common sense.


----------



## dzilizzi

Living Fossil said:


> Honestly, the question i ask myself after having listened to several demos, is:
> How would the comments in this thread be if this library had been released by 8dio?
> I guess it would be a complete slaughtering.
> 
> So, my impression (based on what i've heard, i'm quite sure i will not buy it) is that even in more elaborate demos the strings sound quite often (specially when exposed), as if they were mixed with a Solina String Ensemble. I guess that's a usual problem of large sections playing vibrato without musical context. But honestly, from a string library that's released 2020 i think one could expect more.
> Personally, i think a higher prize tag in combination with a more refined quality would be more appealing (at least to me...)


Actually, compared to the ARO release comments for Spitfire, this is not bad. And let's not talk about the similar sized HZS release. 

They might have been better off making it a higher priced library that had more and was better. I wonder if they cut back to be able to hit the lower price point. But I really think it wasn't quite ready for release. OT has had a crazy amount of library releases -for them - since the Sine player came out. Before that, it was one or two a year? Their business model has changed. Hopefully they will be able to keep up the quality. And it isn't just them. VSL has been releasing a lot more libraries and Spitfire started a few years ago doing a similar thing. They will have to be careful they don't get a reputation like 8Dio had - lots of hit and miss products.


----------



## Michael Antrum

dzilizzi said:


> But the intro offers generally are pre-release not after.



OT generally have a pre-release offer, and after release they have an intro offer which is slightly more expensive. Then it rocks up to full price.

But the walkthroughs always seems to lag well behind and come in a the very end of the intro offer...


----------



## muziksculp

dzilizzi said:


> VSL has been releasing a lot more libraries and Spitfire started a few years ago doing a similar thing. They will have to be careful they don't get a reputation like 8Dio had - lots of hit and miss products.



Very good point.


----------



## Noeticus

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> You forgot VSL Appassionata Strings (20/20/14/12/10). Or do only wet libraries count?



You may have an extra 20 in there?

Well, it looks like only the Synchron-ized version has the 2nd violins making the true total = 76 string players, where the VI version only has 56 due to no 2nd violins.


----------



## Michael Antrum

Noeticus said:


> You may have an extra 20 in there?



20 1st Violins
20 2nd Violins
14 Violas
12 Cello
10 Basses


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

Ashermusic said:


> This has been going on for a long time. Someone makes a video about a new library, chooses the wrong patch for what he/she is trying to perform, either doesn't understand or disregards the intended MIDI cc usage, etc.
> 
> While they are not ill-intended, they do real harm.
> 
> Bottom line, if you don't know what the f*#k you are doing, don't do it!


But Jay, how does one know what one does not know? *cue ethnic overblown flute ornament *


----------



## Living Fossil

dzilizzi said:


> They might have been better off making it a higher priced library that had more and was better. I wonder if they cut back to be able to hit the lower price point.



I guess this is somehow the actual trend on the sample market. A prize tag between 500 and 800 and a product full with compromises. And - in my opinion - this shows quite clearly that more competition doesn't result automatically in better products....


----------



## dzilizzi

Living Fossil said:


> I guess this is somehow the actual trend on the sample market. A prize tag between 500 and 800 and a product full with compromises. And - in my opinion - this shows quite clearly that more competition doesn't result automatically in better products....


I think you either get better products or cheaper prices. Unfortunately, the trend seems to be towards cheaper prices. 

The other way to go is like Musical Sampling or Performance Samples and give a cheaper price but limit it to one good thing. This can work if all your libraries work together.


----------



## bfreepro

Secret Soundworks said:


> Any chance you could post an example of how NSS and HZS sound layered? Would be interested to hear them together


Sure! Please send a PM to “remind” me, as I’ll probably forget.




Soundbed said:


> Hey Brian I was playing around with Ark 2 legato yesterday, to see if I could get a bit of the BSS sound from a product I already own, and it's not too bad. Especially if you stay in the lower registers. (The Ark 1 legatos are fairly heavy handed of course but they are also only octaves, so....)



Nice  I have the Ark 2 piano and low Strings, bought them ala carte when it was ported to SINE. Actually those low strings from ark 2 AND 1 are the patches I use more than anything else in the whole ark series lol.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Noeticus said:


> You may have an extra 20 in there?
> 
> Well, it looks like only the Synchron-ized version has the 2nd violins making the true total = 76 string players, where the VI version only has 56 due to no 2nd violins.



VSL never had 2nd violins in their VI libraries, you have to do them on your own. The SYNCHRON-ized version has them premade (transposition trick) for convience.


----------



## bfreepro

Secret Soundworks said:


> Any chance you could post an example of how NSS and HZS sound layered? Would be interested to hear them together


Here is a quick example on something I was working on this morning for a client... NSS has such an amazing tone but not much ambience or room to it. HZS has a TON of ambience and room, but not much detail. I find this sounds a lot better than turning up the close mics on HZS or using the "symphonic" patches from NSS. And it really covers up the hit-or-miss legato from HZS. I like doing this for almost all my sounds actually, have one library that's very distant with a lot of room ambience layered with one that's closer and more dry... it just always sounds better to me than using one library and messing with the close and far mics.

So three examples: NSS celli, HZS celli (60 cellos full), NSS+HZS Celli, and then HZS+NSS Celli PLUS NSS basses.


----------



## coprhead6

I'd love to hear the pattern legato try the section starting at 2:26.


----------



## Noeticus

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> VSL never had 2nd violins in their VI libraries, you have to do them on your own. The SYNCHRON-ized version has them premade (transposition trick) for convience.



So the Appassionata 2nd violins were not recorded separeley in the SYNCHRON-ized version, but were the original violins transposed by the VSL and added for user convenience?


----------



## ism

bfreepro said:


> Here is a quick example on something I was working on this morning for a client... NSS has such an amazing tone but not much ambience or room to it. HZS has a TON of ambience and room, but not much detail. I find this sounds a lot better than turning up the close mics on HZS or using the "symphonic" patches from NSS. And it really covers up the hit-or-miss legato from HZS. I like doing this for almost all my sounds actually, have one library that's very distant with a lot of room ambience layered with one that's closer and more dry... it just always sounds better to me than using one library and messing with the close and far mics.
> 
> So three examples: NSS celli, HZS celli (60 cellos full), NSS+HZS Celli, and then HZS+NSS Celli PLUS NSS basses.



That's pretty cool. would you say that you're more using NSS as first chair/ close mic to HZS, or more that HZS is acting as a kind of extra-ambient mics to NSS?


----------



## lettucehat

Living Fossil said:


> Honestly, the question i ask myself after having listened to several demos, is:
> How would the comments in this thread be if this library had been released by 8dio?
> I guess it would be a complete slaughtering.
> 
> So, my impression (based on what i've heard, i'm quite sure i will not buy it) is that even in more elaborate demos the strings sound quite often (specially when exposed), as if they were mixed with a Solina String Ensemble. I guess that's a usual problem of large sections playing vibrato without musical context. But honestly, from a string library that's released 2020 i think one could expect more.
> Personally, i think a higher prize tag in combination with a more refined quality would be more appealing (at least to me...)



I agree with a lot of this but also think that one major factor here, which unfortunately for many developers is not something that can simply be bought with higher budgets and product prices, is simply getting legato right, and realism more generally.

Clearly, there are a number of budget friendly libraries that have crossed over that realism line, and many recent and expensive ones that don't quite get there. Unfortunately, I think that 2020 vs 2015 is less about advances in technique and more about sideways or even backwards movement in terms of business strategy. I think what we're seeing now is a lot of the developers realizing it's probably just best to get a string library out there in that CSS price range and hope to sell it on the strength of marketing. It's not worth breaking your back to outdo the best on the market, just have your own and best marketing wins. After all, no returns.


----------



## lettucehat

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> A (redacted) of mic positions, but still cant write a detache line



Not coincidentally, the former is something you can just decide to do, immediately inflates the sample footprint, and value of your product. The latter? Less concrete, unclear if it's worth the time or if you'll even get a satisfactory result, and even then, will anyone notice or appreciate? Who's the target audience anyway?

And all of this is ignoring the developers' ears as well.

There are so many very good string libraries out there right now, but I think about how Berlin Strings went into incredible detail with its various forms of legato back in 2012 or whatever. CSS of course, and others. Even Hollywood Strings was exhaustive, especially by the standards of the time. And then you have more recent releases where it's almost like there's an unspoken understanding among many developers that it's just legato again, let's just leave it at that. Broad brush I know, but that's how it comes off.


----------



## Marlon Brown

Sovereign said:


> Quick doodle with the cellos and violas playing melody. Both can play quite emotional at lower velocities, I am stumped why they did not instruct the violins to do the same.


Love this! Absolutely beautiful!


----------



## Marlon Brown

Robin said:


> I played around with it a bit today as I wanted to see how well it behaves in a type of piece that I would call the "butter zone" for such a library:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I wanted to see how it holds up against my current go to library for such things (CSS), so here's the comparison:
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,



Definitely CSS for the win!


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

Robin said:


> I played around with it a bit today as I wanted to see how well it behaves in a type of piece that I would call the "butter zone" for such a library:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I wanted to see how it holds up against my current go to library for such things (CSS), so here's the comparison:
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,



I only just got a chance to listen to this in my studio - the violins sound like they have very very little vibrato which is detracting heavily from their ability to be expressive (unless it was toggled by Robin)?

(I did a little high violin test to compare)


----------



## bfreepro

ism said:


> That's pretty cool. would you say that you're more using NSS as first chair/ close mic to HZS, or more that HZS is acting as a kind of extra-ambient mics to NSS?


I see it as mostly HZS adding extra ambience. I love that library for this very purpose, it seems to be tailor made for it. Nothing quite like it! Both the libraries do stand on their own of course, but layering them is just perfection to me. I used to layer is with CSS as well (if anyone reading owns both and wants to give it a try) but I like the detailed and clear tone of NSS better


----------



## Secret Soundworks

bfreepro said:


> Here is a quick example on something I was working on this morning for a client... NSS has such an amazing tone but not much ambience or room to it. HZS has a TON of ambience and room, but not much detail. I find this sounds a lot better than turning up the close mics on HZS or using the "symphonic" patches from NSS. And it really covers up the hit-or-miss legato from HZS. I like doing this for almost all my sounds actually, have one library that's very distant with a lot of room ambience layered with one that's closer and more dry... it just always sounds better to me than using one library and messing with the close and far mics.
> 
> So three examples: NSS celli, HZS celli (60 cellos full), NSS+HZS Celli, and then HZS+NSS Celli PLUS NSS basses.



Thanks Brian, sounds like a nice combo!


----------



## Chungus

Living Fossil said:


> Honestly, the question i ask myself after having listened to several demos, is:
> How would the comments in this thread be if this library had been released by 8dio?


If it were, I wouldn't even have paid attention to it.


----------



## Michael Becker

I am really saddened while reading the posts here. I own some OT libraries and like these a lot. I thought the “special intro offer” is great and was about to buy BSS. But at the moment it seems to be a rather buggy endeavor.
I am wondering if the HWS would get the same job done? At least they have portamento which BSS have not. I can imagine the BSS just simply sound better than HWS judging by the demos.


----------



## jbuhler

Michael Becker said:


> I am really saddened while reading the posts here. I own some OT libraries and like these a lot. I thought the “special intro offer” is great and was about to buy BSS. But at the moment it seems to be a rather buggy endeavor.
> I am wondering if the HWS would get the same job done? At least they have portamento which BSS have not. I can imagine the BSS just simply sound better than HWS judging by the demos.


BSS is not that buggy so if you are drawn to the sound I think you’ll find they are quite workable even in their current imperfect state. HWS is a much better value than pretty much anything these days for the content. I don’t own them but there are tons of user demos that show they are highly effective.


----------



## markleake

Chungus said:


> If it were, I wouldn't even have paid attention to it.


lol, this is so true. My buying philosophy for 8dio is:

a) completely ignore until people consistently say good things about a specific library, _and_ nothing bad
b) wait until said library goes on some ridiculously low priced sale
c) then it _may_ be worth getting


----------



## markleake

Michael Becker said:


> I am wondering if the HWS would get the same job done?


It would, and is by far better value than BSS. Especially if you wait for one of the (very) regular sales EW have. I don't think HWS has the same tone though, and the ambience is completely different to BSS, but HWS is still an extremely solid workhorse.


----------



## Zero&One

jbuhler said:


> BSS is not that buggy so if you are drawn to the sound I think you’ll find they are quite workable even in their current imperfect state.



I agree. It's not like they are broken, there's issues like most releases in the last 3 years.
And the only other 'issue' is it isn't a good as CSS. But no library ever is!


----------



## jbuhler

Zero&One said:


> I agree. It's not like they are broken, there's issues like most releases in the last 3 years.
> And the only other 'issue' is it isn't a good as CSS. But no library ever is!


Except if you don’t love the sound of CSS.


----------



## Zero&One

jbuhler said:


> Except if you don’t love the sound of CSS.



Thankfully, I only have the first issue


----------



## muziksculp

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> I only just got a chance to listen to this in my studio - the violins sound like they have very very little vibrato which is detracting heavily from their ability to be expressive



I totally agree. I had the same wish when I was playing these strings, and felt like they are too static, and don't have that emotional component of high-strings, which is because have a bare minimum vibrato going on, almost non existent.


----------



## jbuhler

Zero&One said:


> Thankfully, I only have the first issue


And I’ve heard really great stuff done with it, but the sound is not for me, even though there are indeed things that only CSS does well.


----------



## Hendrixon

Zero&One said:


> Thankfully, I only have the first issue



3 years of release issues?


----------



## jbuhler

Just add a couple years negative track delay to the CSW track and then its release will be on time.


----------



## muziksculp

Regarding BSS Violins lacking the expressiveness, due to the lack of a nice emotionally played vibrato. I thought maybe I can x-fade some of the tremolos in with Sustain-Legato, and see if that helps create a bit more motion to the static sustains, kind of make believe emotional vibrato, taking care of x-fading them just a slight amount, otherwise, you hear too much of the tremolo come into play. 

The result is not bad. Give it a try if you want to experiment  

Here is a pic showing what I did :


----------



## Hendrixon

jbuhler said:


> And I’ve heard really great stuff done with it, but the sound is not for me, even though there are indeed things that only CSS does well.



CSS was my first library. even though to my virgin ears back then anything Spitfire sounded much better and impressive, there was something in the dynamics and behavior of CSS that made it stand out, so I bought it.

Many moons ago (like really many lol) I worked in a recording studio for about a year and was also a session guitarist from time to time, so I'm very comfortable with hearing a sound and knowing if I can eq it to something else. I knew I could make CSS sound like something from Spitfire (like SSS or SCS), but I would never be able to make either of those play like CSS.

Anyway, I played with CSS for like 6 months, it was my only strings lib.
I've built my own sections, chose different mics for each section (usually leaving the Room mic out or having it very low), eq'd each section the way I liked, and was happy  

Well sort of, because every now and then someone posted a piece of music he/she made with CSS that sounded amazing... with CSS's out of the box default mix sound!
And I was like "hhmm..maybe its my cpu? yea its kinda old, probably lacks some newer micro code instructions"

In the end I learned to like CSS sound as is
Well... sort of lol
I don't eq it anymore but I still mix mics


----------



## Everratic

Hendrixon said:


> Well sort of, because every now and then someone posted a piece of music he/she made with CSS that sounded amazing... with CSS's out of the box default mix sound!
> And I was like "hhmm..maybe its my cpu? yea its kinda old, probably lacks some newer micro code instructions"
> 
> In the end I learned to like CSS sound as is
> Well... sort of lol
> I don't eq it anymore but I still mix mics



I also used to dislike the sound of CSS out of the box but was impressed by how good others made it sound. I think the external reverb used was the determining factor. Now I have Cinematic Rooms (I used many different reverbs before including Valhalla Room), and I like the sound of CSS's default mix with many of the presets. 

I should play with the mics as well.


----------



## muziksculp

Hi,

OK, here is a short, and rough demo I did using the BSS Violins II , X-Faded with the Tremolo Vlns. Just a slight bit to give them some movement especially at the higher dynamics. 

Piano is NI Noire. Reverb is Cinematic Rooms Pro. , just a tad of Sonnox Limiting on the master bus. No EQ, or Comp.


----------



## dzilizzi

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> OK, here is a short, and rough demo I did using the BSS Violins II , X-Faded with the Tremolo Vlns. Just a slight bit to give them some movement especially at the higher dynamics.
> 
> Piano is NI Noire. Reverb is Cinematic Rooms Pro. , just a tad of Sonnox Limiting on the master bus. No EQ, or Comp.


Sounds pretty good to me.


----------



## muziksculp

dzilizzi said:


> Sounds pretty good to me.



Thanks.


----------



## holywilly

Did a simple test with my go to strings (VI Dimension Strings + Synchron Strings Pro) layering with BSS.

I mainly start writing with VI Dimension Strings (ensemble size of 4,4,3,3,2), the small ensemble allows me to hear each part clearly, then I'll layer DS with Synchron Strings Pro for bigger sound. Now I copied MIDI to my BSS tracks and re-program the dynamics for each string part.

The result of layering BSS with my VSL combination is quite satisfying. BSS definitely will be part of my template.

I'm not a good string writer, so please bear with me.


----------



## jononotbono

What have I missed? 😂


----------



## Noeticus

jononotbono said:


> What have I missed? 😂



A lot of drama.


----------



## Drumdude2112

jononotbono said:


> What have I missed? 😂



OT came out with a new string library and everybody LOVES it's lol 😂


----------



## Virtuoso

jononotbono said:


> What have I missed? 😂


Hendrick was holding some women hostage in a cold war bunker and torturing them with some poorly edited legato transitions. Jack Bauer arrived just as he was about to turn the screw with some marcato shorts, but then Hendrick had the ace up his sleeve. THE VIOLA HIGH REGISTER OCTAVES!!!

RIP Jack.


----------



## szczaw

Virtuoso said:


> Hendrick was holding some women hostage in a cold war bunker



That would be a part of female composer collective. Sadly not all of them were captured. OT's HQ is a Berlin bunker ?


----------



## stargazer

holywilly said:


> Did a simple test with my go to strings (VI Dimension Strings + Synchron Strings Pro) layering with BSS.
> 
> I mainly start writing with VI Dimension Strings (ensemble size of 4,4,3,3,2), the small ensemble allows me to hear each part clearly, then I'll layer DS with Synchron Strings Pro for bigger sound. Now I copied MIDI to my BSS tracks and re-program the dynamics for each string part.
> 
> The result of layering BSS with my VSL combination is quite satisfying. BSS definitely will be part of my template.
> 
> I'm not a good string writer, so please bear with me.



BSS sounded very good in this example. The tempo and the ”CC dynamics” you used seems to be a good fit. Maybe I should reconsider and buy it...


----------



## borisb2

Mikay said:


> So far, I have only heard examples that were more on the calmer romantic side or pieces where the strings are more pushed to the back. I miss some "bite" in most examples. I would love to hear something like the Hidalgo theme where the strings get really present in the foreground:



Awesome piece. How big was that string section?


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Noeticus said:


> So the Appassionata 2nd violins were not recorded separeley in the SYNCHRON-ized version, but were the original violins transposed by the VSL and added for user convenience?


Correct. SySI/SSP is the first string library with recorded 2nd violins.


----------



## Mikay

borisb2 said:


> Awesome piece. How big was that string section?



Unfortunately, I couldn't find an answer to that, but this is what I would I expect from a "rich, cinematic" sound. 

However, if this video shows the full dynamic range, then I don't think something like Hidalgo would be possible:


jbuhler said:


>




The BSS examples so far sound too laid back, as if it lacked dynamic range, but then, who knows what kind of tricks Hollywood uses to achieve that sound. Maybe layering with closer miked strings does the trick.


----------



## Hendrixon

holywilly said:


> Did a simple test with my go to strings (VI Dimension Strings + Synchron Strings Pro) layering with BSS.
> 
> I mainly start writing with VI Dimension Strings (ensemble size of 4,4,3,3,2), the small ensemble allows me to hear each part clearly, then I'll layer DS with Synchron Strings Pro for bigger sound. Now I copied MIDI to my BSS tracks and re-program the dynamics for each string part.
> 
> The result of layering BSS with my VSL combination is quite satisfying. BSS definitely will be part of my template.
> 
> I'm not a good string writer, so please bear with me.



To me the BSS and DS+SSP versions sound **exactly** the same.


----------



## muk

Nice examples, thanks @holywilly. To my ears, the Berlin Symphonic Strings version is not balanced between sections. The violins are too quiet. Also, the celli seem to be much closer than the violins, which sounds odd. And overall, in my opinion it lacks definition. It's a nice sound, but I hear no direction or intent.

The Synchron Strings Pro + Dimension Strings example has good balance and a nice blend of the sections to my ears. For my taste it is slightly too dry, which gives it a kind of sucking sound for some of the legato transitions. Audible at 0:18, and other places. But that's a marginal problem, and overall I quite like this example.

The example with all three libraries layered does nothing for me. It sounds blurry and undefined in my opinion.


----------



## holywilly

That’s my writing preset for string, I’m more toward dryer sound when writing, that’s easier for my mixing engineer to mix.
I’m still exploring BSS, messing around the mic positions, the parameters in SINE, I wish we all BSS owners can share how to make most of BSS since it’s quite an expensive library.


----------



## galactic orange

In the commercial thread an update was announced that might fix some issues that users are having:

OT BSS update

I think it’s great that an update was made available so fast. But I think it’s a shame that support will be closed until exactly the day that the intro price is over.

A fix that either happens or doesn’t happen further down the line could be the thing that makes or breaks a sale during the intro period. And I tend to either buy at intro price or not at all.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

I feel like the sections need rebalanced, irc I lowered the volume of the violas a little, bosted vln I and vln II by a good bit and the bass lowered a little. 

basically, It's bottom end heavy - so I rebalanced based on that.


----------



## Casiquire

Hendrixon said:


> To me the BSS and DS+SSP versions sound **exactly** the same.


Not at all. The BSS sounds more expressive and the strings are more lush to my ears


----------



## holywilly

VSL sounds more direct where BSS is more emotive, combining two together sounds unique.

I realized that the spot mics and leader mic are not recorded in situ except for 1st violins. I have to manually pan those mics to match the decca tree. Can owners confirm that?

I haven’t update the BSS yet, will do that first thing in the morning.


----------



## jbuhler

The update still hasn't fixed the issue with the viola legato interval starting on the highest D and C# and going down a major third.

ETA: I reported this to OT today.


----------



## holywilly

jbuhler said:


> The update still hasn't fixed the issue with the viola legato interval starting on the highest D and C# and going down a major third.
> 
> ETA: I reported this to OT today.


What does OT fixed? It’s almost midnight and I’m keep on refreshing this forum....hmm


----------



## Casiquire

holywilly said:


> VSL sounds more direct where BSS is more emotive, combining two together sounds unique.
> 
> I realized that the spot mics and leader mic are not recorded in situ except for 1st violins. I have to manually pan those mics to match the decca tree. Can owners confirm that?
> 
> I haven’t update the BSS yet, will do that first thing in the morning.


They're spot mics so i wouldn't expect them to reflect the string's position in the hall. It might have been helpful for them to load in SINE pre-panned though


----------



## jbuhler

holywilly said:


> What does OT fixed? It’s almost midnight and I’m keep on refreshing this forum....hmm


Update for BSS is available in Sine. Some of the legato issues raised here have been addressed.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Did a short video with the legato using the default settings(I did change the mic choices to my preference however)

Tried to limit mod wheel movement in general, worth noting.


----------



## muziksculp

Hopefully OT will fix the BSS Merge functionality for the Mics.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

muziksculp said:


> Hopefully OT will fix the BSS Merge functionality for the Mics.



I tried this and it's a good way to heat the room. 

I tried baking violin I(honestly havent tried it since I got the library) and my cpu went to 66% and it was like 67gb of my ram while my CPU sounded like it was getting ready to lift off.


----------



## muziksculp

ProfoundSilence said:


> I tried this and it's a good way to heat the room.
> 
> I tried baking violin I(honestly havent tried it since I got the library) and my cpu went to 66% and it was like 67gb of my ram while my CPU sounded like it was getting ready to lift off.



I got this error message when trying to merge some BSS mics .

I hope OT can fix this, the Merge feature would surely save a lot of RAM if it worked properly.


----------



## Secret Soundworks

What is the main thing that was adressed regarding the legatos in the update? Are they supposed to be smoother now, or just some audio bugs artifacts were fixed?


----------



## jbuhler

muziksculp said:


> I got this error message when trying to merge some BSS mics .
> 
> I hope OT can fix this, the Merge feature would surely save a lot of RAM if it worked properly.


Does the merge work after you get this error? Because I get this error after having merged some mics in Majestic Horn, but the merged mic is present and seems to work. I just get the error box every time I select it.


----------



## muziksculp

jbuhler said:


> Does the merge work after you get this error? Because I get this error after having merged some mics in Majestic Horn, but the merged mic is present and seems to work. I just get the error box every time I select it.



No it doesn't work, actually I posted about this issue earlier on this thread, that it also freezes/crashes my DAW, so it's no good. They need to fix it.


----------



## styledelk

muziksculp said:


> No it doesn't work, actually I posted about this issue earlier on this thread, that it also freezes/crashes my DAW, so it's no good. They need to fix it.



But did you do it outside of the DAW? I have a feeling that most DAWs will end up limiting how much memory a single instance can address inside its sandbox, and that's probably going to cause an error when the merge has to do too much. 

If that's the case, the best OT can probably do is handle that error better and tell you "Sorry, can't do that. Try in less restricted air space."


----------



## jbuhler

muziksculp said:


> No it doesn't work, actually I posted about this issue earlier on this thread, that it also freezes/crashes my DAW, so it's no good. They need to fix it.


Agree they need to fix regardless. I was just curious if it was worth doing and using the drive space. I’ll wait for the Sine update.


----------



## muziksculp

styledelk said:


> But did you do it outside of the DAW? I have a feeling that most DAWs will end up limiting how much memory a single instance can address inside its sandbox, and that's probably going to cause an error when the merge has to do too much.
> 
> If that's the case, the best OT can probably do is handle that error better and tell you "Sorry, can't do that. Try in less restricted air space."



So, let me get this straight. Is the Merge functionality for MICs meant to be used in SINE standalone, rather than when using SINE in a DAW ?


----------



## jbuhler

styledelk said:


> But did you do it outside of the DAW? I have a feeling that most DAWs will end up limiting how much memory a single instance can address inside its sandbox, and that's probably going to cause an error when the merge has to do too much.
> 
> If that's the case, the best OT can probably do is handle that error better and tell you "Sorry, can't do that. Try in less restricted air space."


It creates an error if you do it outside a DAW too. Though my merging of Majestic Horn, which was done in the standalone, does play.


----------



## muziksculp

I think the Merge functionality worked in SINE Standalone, but not when SINE is running in my DAW.


----------



## jbuhler

muziksculp said:


> So, let me get this straight. Is the Merge functionality for MICs meant to be used in SINE standalone, rather than when using SINE in a DAW ?


No, it just creates the equivalent of a new mic and it’s available like any other mic in whatever instance of Sine you are running.


----------



## muziksculp

jbuhler said:


> No, it just creates the equivalent of a new mic and it’s available like any other mic in whatever instance of Sine you are running.



Yes, I know that, but I'm asking if performing the Merge function works only when using SINE as a Standalone app. , because when I tried the Merge function in SINE running in my DAW it gave me an error message, and crashed/freezed my DAW.


----------



## jbuhler

muziksculp said:


> Yes, I know that, but I'm asking if performing the Merge function works only when using SINE as a Standalone app. , because when I tried the Merge function in SINE running in my DAW it gave me an error message, and crashed/freezed my DAW.


I think it’s supposed to work in the DAW, but since the unstableness of the early versions of Sine, I’ve always done all maintenance tasks in the standalone.


----------



## styledelk

I'm not suggesting what it's supposed to do, just saying that there's likely some limits to what it _can_ do when acting as a plugin. Those are sandboxed such a different way, and it differs by DAW and plugin type. The amount of disk, RAM, and CPU activity to do the mic merge has to be a major operation that takes more resources than most DAWs are going to give up.


----------



## muziksculp

jbuhler said:


> I think it’s supposed to work in the DAW, but since the unstableness of the early versions of Sine, I’ve always done all maintenance tasks in the standalone.



OK. That's what I wanted to know. Thanks.

I will be emailing OT support the issues/bugs I encounter, I encourage other BSS users to do the same, their support will be back at work on Jan. 4th, I think they will have a busy Jan. 2021. to try to fix all these issues we will be reporting to them. The good thing is BSS will be a much better library once all these issues/bugs have been fixed.

I would also love it if OT adds a new Molto-Vibrato to their violins I and II. That would make this library a lot more useful, for those romantic, expressive violin melodic lines that need to be super expressive, and emotional sounding. My tremolo layering with the Legato for the Violins is a little workaround, but it would be so much nicer if I didn't have to make believe this is the sound of the Violins playing Molto-Vibrato. Especially with a first-class library like this one. I will add this detail as a request, in my correspondence with OT-Support.


----------



## muziksculp

styledelk said:


> I'm not suggesting what it's supposed to do, just saying that there's likely some limits to what it _can_ do when acting as a plugin. Those are sandboxed such a different way, and it differs by DAW and plugin type. The amount of disk, RAM, and CPU activity to do the mic merge has to be a major operation that takes more resources than most DAWs are going to give up.



Thanks for the feedback. I have no problem merging the mics in Standalone mode. 

I'm guessing that OT would recommend performing the Mic-Merge feature in Standalone. It would be helpful if OT would comment on this detail.


----------



## Zero&One

Secret Soundworks said:


> What is the main thing that was adressed regarding the legatos in the update? Are they supposed to be smoother now, or just some audio bugs artifacts were fixed?



They are definitely more responsive now. I only updated Vin 1, just to confirm this wasn't a placebo.
The delay was more noticeable than I realised on the originals. Feel great now. Not sure what other wizardry is done on the legato side though.

I rendered out a few test midi also pre/post to check this update
This is the 'Pattern legato' old vs new. Definitely hear the first one is more bumpy than the second (update) pass.


----------



## Zero&One

And this is Violins 2 Sustains + Legato. First pass is one violin, second pass is original and new. You can hear the delay when doubled up, it's like a side chain compressor slamming it.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

ka00 said:


> Thank you for creating this! This library is getting more tempting. How much external reverb, if any did you have in the video?



No processing, this is 100% standalone SINE player


----------



## jbuhler

Zero&One said:


> They are definitely more responsive now. I only updated Vin 1, just to confirm this wasn't a placebo.
> The delay was more noticeable than I realised on the originals. Feel great now. Not sure what other wizardry is done on the legato side though.
> 
> I rendered out a few test midi also pre/post to check this update
> This is the 'Pattern legato' old vs new. Definitely hear the first one is more bumpy than the second (update) pass.


This was my sense in playing with it briefly too, though the few things I rendered out didn‘t seem that different, and the marcato shorts in the second violins are giving me a different output than they did in the first version (at least according to the audio) but I can’t confirm that I didn’t alter the midi after I printed the earlier version.


----------



## ChrisSiuMusic

muziksculp said:


> I would also love it if OT adds a new Molto-Vibrato to their violins I and II. That would make this library a lot more useful, for those romantic, expressive violin melodic lines that need to be super expressive, and emotional sounding. My tremolo layering with the Legato for the Violins is a little workaround, but it would be so much nicer if I didn't have to make believe this is the sound of the Violins playing Molto-Vibrato. Especially with a first-class library like this one. I will add this detail as a request, in my correspondence with OT-Support.


Yes, agreed. At the moment, layering the BSS violins with something like CSS or Vista works well for me.


----------



## batonruse

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> OK, here is a short, and rough demo I did using the BSS Violins II , X-Faded with the Tremolo Vlns. Just a slight bit to give them some movement especially at the higher dynamics.
> 
> Piano is NI Noire. Reverb is Cinematic Rooms Pro. , just a tad of Sonnox Limiting on the master bus. No EQ, or Comp.



Great demo and a lovely (albeit too short) piece of music....should I recognise it?, is it yours and if so it would be great to hear more if possible. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## muziksculp

batonruse said:


> Great demo and a lovely (albeit too short) piece of music....should I recognise it?, is it yours and if so it would be great to hear more if possible. Thanks for sharing.



Hi @batonruse ,

Thanks for your nice comment. 

Yes, it is my composition.

I wrote it pretty fast, so it wasn't a full fleshed composition that I sat down, and planned Intro-A-B-A-...etc. , etc, sections, or something of that nature, but it was intended to be a short piece to showcase the Melodic use of the BSS Vlns II when used to write more of a romantic/emotional style melody, I didn' use any of the other string families to make sure that I exposed the Violins, and not bury them in a more dense string ensemble sound. Which would have been hard to evaluate. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## batonruse

muziksculp said:


> Hi @batonruse ,
> 
> Thanks for your nice comment.
> 
> Yes, it is my composition.
> 
> I wrote it pretty fast, so it wasn't a full fleshed composition that I sat down, and planned Intro-A-B-A-...etc. , etc, sections, or something of that nature, but it was intended to be a short piece to showcase the Melodic use of the BSS Vlns II when used to write more of a romantic/emotional style melody, I didn' use any of the other string families to make sure that I exposed the Violins, and not bury them in a more dense string ensemble sound. Which would have been hard to evaluate.
> 
> Cheers,
> Muziksculp


Hi and thanks for the quick response. Congrats on a great piece and I hope that you get inclined to revisit it sometime....I would love to hear where you can take it! Best wishes


----------



## muziksculp

batonruse said:


> Hi and thanks for the quick response. Congrats on a great piece and I hope that you get inclined to revisit it sometime....I would love to hear where you can take it! Best wishes



Hi @batonruse ,

Your very welcome. Thanks again. 

I wasn't thinking this piece would be anything special, but now you are making me think twice, I might consider fleshing it out, and expanding it to a full song, with some creative orchestration ideas.  

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## muziksculp




----------



## coprhead6

Omg finally


----------



## ChrisSiuMusic

Yay!


----------



## Raphioli

ProfoundSilence said:


> Did a short video with the legato using the default settings(I did change the mic choices to my preference however)
> 
> Tried to limit mod wheel movement in general, worth noting.




I wish they applied an intro sale discount on the individual sections as well.
I said it before, but I like the cellos.


----------



## Chungus

>Pee-zee-cato

Mah gawd. I'm glad to see the walkthrough, but I really wish Hendrik was the one doing these. Yes, I've mentioned this before, and no, I won't shut up about it.


----------



## jbuhler

muziksculp said:


>



Looks like they were waiting for the update to release the walkthrough. I’d wondered if OT encountered too many bugs putting the walkthrough together and that’s what had delayed it.


----------



## muziksculp

jbuhler said:


> Looks like they were waiting for the update to release the walkthrough. I’d wondered if OT encountered too many bugs putting the walkthrough together and that’s what had delayed it.



Yes, That is a possibility.


----------



## styledelk

The SINE interface has to be one of the most confusing UX designs I've ever seen. I still avoid using my OT libraries because I'm immediately disoriented with what I'm supposed to do with this shit.

But they still sound beautiful.


----------



## Raphioli

I personally was able to get use to SINE pretty quickly.

Aside from bugs, the only problem(?) I have is the lack of features.
Being able to really dive in to the library and edit (custom) the heck out of it like in Kontakt.
If that would become possible some of these bugs will probably be fixable by users too.


----------



## jbuhler

styledelk said:


> The SINE interface has to be one of the most confusing UX designs I've ever seen. I still avoid using my OT libraries because I'm immediately disoriented with what I'm supposed to do with this shit.
> 
> But they still sound beautiful.


I just wish I could figure out how to set a new default size so that it opened in a size that fit my second screen.


----------



## muziksculp

Is there a fast way to swap/switch articulations around when using poly key-switch mode ?


----------



## Drumdude2112

I think the walkthrough was more encouraging then what i had heard thus far...Seems there's certain things BSS does quite well .


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Drumdude2112 said:


> Seems there's certain things BSS does quite well .



gorgeous tone, solid amount of dynamic layers(including dynamic layers on legato), 4 lengths of "short notes", and more drama baked into the samples to the point that it manifests out into the forums. 

I bet the lead cellist and 2nd chair were having an affair while the first chair of the 2nd violin was taking pictures and sending them to 1st chair celli's husband while he builds a case for divorce so that he might get to keep the custody of kids(one of which was secretly the kid of a bassist).

that would explain the reception anyways


----------



## styledelk

Honestly I wasn't casting any shade when I said that the earlier demo made me want CSS for the first time. I just had never heard a demo before that made me interested in venturing outside of Spitfire and OT, and that one had a nice sound! 

I'll still buy this because I'm a glutton for more string libraries I don't need.


----------



## richhickey

muziksculp said:


>




Oh look, BSS doesn't suck! As an owner I think this walkthrough demonstrates several things I hear:

First - too many of the demos have too much Spot 1, yielding a too-dry, 1-dimensional and sterile sound, easily avoided by using more tree et al. And the Spot 2 ribbons are wonderful.

Second - dynamic layers matter! (as everyone who bought BBCSO discovered once AR1 came out and spanked it dynamically) BSS joins the ranks of Synchron Strings 1 and LASS as a full-range lib that doesn't sound turned-down at low dynamics.

Third - the staccatos are on the long side. Nice when that's what you need, but could use a shorter variant.

Fourth - it's pronounced 'pizza'-cato - who knew?


----------



## muziksculp

richhickey said:


> Third - the staccatos are on the long side. Nice when that's what you need, but could use a shorter variant.



You can easily shorten them to your taste via the Envelope Editor


----------



## Babe

I submitted a support ticket about the mic merge problem and their response was that it's a known issue and not to use it on BSS for now.


----------



## muziksculp

Babe said:


> I submitted a support ticket about the mic merge problem and their response was that it's a known issue and not to use it on BSS for now.



Thanks for the important feedback. 

This gives me hope that it will be fixed via an Update, the Mic-Merge feature is one of the advantages of using SINE.


----------



## richhickey

muziksculp said:


> You can easily shorten them to your taste via the Envelope Editor



Not and have them sound like actually shorter staccatos. The onsets would be faster too.


----------



## muziksculp

richhickey said:


> Not and have them sound like actually shorter staccatos. The onsets would be faster too.



You can slow the onset as well, just increase the attack time. You can also edit the shape of the curves.


----------



## bfreepro

muziksculp said:


>



God someone please MAKE THE VOICE OVER GUY GO AWAY... 🤣


----------



## stevebarden

bfreepro said:


> God someone please MAKE THE VOICE OVER GUY GO AWAY... 🤣


Did he pronounce pizzicato "pizzycato"? (pizzy rhymes with fizzy)


----------



## muziksculp

bfreepro said:


> God someone please MAKE THE VOICE OVER GUY GO AWAY... 🤣



Hehe.. I would have preferred a heavy German accented narrator.


----------



## bfreepro

stevebarden said:


> Did he pronounce pizzicato "pizzycato"? (pizzy rhymes with fizzy)


Yes he did.


muziksculp said:


> Hehe.. I would have preferred a heavy German accented narrator.


Me too! I can't help but feel some of the previous presenters got ragged on for their accents from trolls or maybe they just felt self-conscious about it. But dear god, I would LOVE to have them back, showing their knowledge and enthusiasm, rather than this guy. Obviously, he's got a fine, clear speaking voice, and I know it's an irrational reaction, but god damn I HATE listening to him


----------



## Michael Antrum

stevebarden said:


> Did he pronounce pizzicato "pizzycato"? (pizzy rhymes with fizzy)



Wasn't she a Bond girl ?


----------



## richhickey

muziksculp said:


> You can slow the onset as well, just increase the attack time. You can also edit the shape of the curves.



If you think doing those things sounds like shorter staccatos, go ahead. I don't.


----------



## artinro

bfreepro said:


> Yes he did.
> 
> Me too! I can't help but feel some of the previous presenters got ragged on for their accents from trolls or maybe they just felt self-conscious about it. But dear god, I would LOVE to have them back, showing their knowledge and enthusiasm, rather than this guy. Obviously, he's got a fine, clear speaking voice, and I know it's an irrational reaction, but god damn I HATE listening to him



He's mispronounced very common musical terms in almost every video OT has released that includes him...often the same words across many videos. It really would behoove OT to instruct him to spend the one or two minutes required to educate himself. It's unprofessional as is, frankly.


----------



## muziksculp

richhickey said:


> If you think doing those things sounds like shorter staccatos, go ahead. I don't.



Well, I think doing this is a good option if you need shorter stacc., Your other option is to hope they add a Staccattisimo articulation, but then you still run the risk that their Saccattisimo version is still not short enough for your taste.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

richhickey said:


> If you think doing those things sounds like shorter staccatos, go ahead. I don't.



There is a spiccato articulation - which is a realistic option rather than sampling an infinite amount of shorts of varied lengths.


----------



## mikeh-375

Michael Antrum said:


> Wasn't she a Bond girl ?


she was one he plucked ........(with apologies..)


----------



## Taj Mikel

Come to the forum to read evaluations of the walkthrough, find a bunch of posts complaining about the pronunciation of a word.


----------



## shawnsingh

mikeh-375 said:


> she was one he plucked ........(with apologies..)



Woah there - let's keep things arco here. No dim-inuendos.


----------



## Craig Sharmat

The Walkthrough is waaaayy more impressive than the roll out. Lots of great sounding stuff. 

BTW the VO dude was all over Disney stuff I worked on a while back.


----------



## Drumdude2112

Craig Sharmat said:


> The Walkthrough is waaaayy more impressive than the roll out. Lots of great sounding stuff.


Agreed 👍🏻


----------



## muziksculp

I wish they would post their BSS audio demos on Youtube, I'm sure they will sound a lot better.


----------



## ned3000

That video does sound better than the demos I think. Shorts actually sound really good (including the PEEZACATO). Still not 100% sold on the legato; it sound like there's too much overlap that makes it sound somewhat synthy. Also, it seems like the attacks of the legato notes are too pronounced.


----------



## ptram

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> You forgot VSL Appassionata Strings (20/20/14/12/10). Or do only wet libraries count?


Ha! Nothing compared to their Zodiac strings (30/26/20/22/14)!

Paolo


----------



## Casiquire

Idk everyone, that walkthrough really sounded amazing. Even the violins sounded good to me, and WOW that leader mic

I'm also glad they included Pea Zecados! They're right, most libraries skip right over them


----------



## ptram

Noeticus said:


> Well, it looks like only the Synchron-ized version has the 2nd violins making the true total = 76 string players, where the VI version only has 56 due to no 2nd violins.



In either case, 2nd violins in Appassionata are artificially derived from the 1st ones, by way of transposing. With Synchronized they have done a very extensive work, while with the older VI only some articulations were derived.

Transposed violins are very effective in avoiding any phasing.

Paolo


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

ptram said:


> Ha! Nothing compared to their Zodiac strings (30/26/20/22/14)!


Just checked to see if you were joking. You weren't.


----------



## Noeticus

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Just checked to see if you were joking. You weren't.



Ah... what's that add up too? 

I'm not good at string theory.


----------



## Casiquire

ka00 said:


> Okay, this is making sense now. Zi-pea Ze-ca-dos. Zip-ah-dee-ay.



If we're doing that song, I'm not satisfied until someone releases a library that can sing it like this


----------



## Virtuoso

stevebarden said:


> Did he pronounce pizzicato "pizzycato"? (pizzy rhymes with fizzy)


In America, risotto rhymes with Frodo.


----------



## Hendrixon

Casiquire said:


> Idk everyone, that walkthrough really sounded amazing. Even the violins sounded good to me, and WOW that leader mic



It doesn't give me joy to say it, but I agree

I don't need another strings libraryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111


----------



## muziksculp

But..Seriously, You can never have enough Strings Libraries.


----------



## muziksculp

I wonder if there are plans for an *OT : Berlin Symphonic Strings (Sordinos) *Expansion library in the future. I can imagine they would have a wonderful dark timbre, and would also be great to layer with BSS.


----------



## dzilizzi

muziksculp said:


> But..Seriously, You can never have enough Strings Libraries.


I keep telling myself that. 

I'm not sure how many I own now, but it might be bordering on too many because I forget I own some of them.....


----------



## muziksculp

dzilizzi said:


> I keep telling myself that.
> 
> I'm not sure how many I own now, but it might be bordering on too many because I forget I own some of them.....



That's very normal.


----------



## JTB

prodigalson said:


> its 100% sampled in whole steps. Unless they ASKED the players to play non-vib on the pitch a whole step above their lowest open string. Lol


Does this not concern ppl?. I asked OT support to tell me if BS is the same because I haven't downloaded it yet. I am waiting for their response.

Call me snobby, but for that amount of money, I expect it to be halftone sampled. My eight VSL libraries are all halftone sampled.


----------



## Casiquire

Oh no. Yet another thread to be taken over by the half tone discussion lol

It is a bit shocking to me though that they wouldn't accommodate for that lowest note. Like they could do "whole tone except the bottom two notes" or they could take that particular note down instead of up


----------



## JTB

Casiquire said:


> Oh no. Yet another thread to be taken over by the half tone discussion lol
> 
> It is a bit shocking to me though that they wouldn't accommodate for that lowest note. Like they could do "whole tone except the bottom two notes" or they could take that particular note down instead of up


Looks like OT take a (w)holistic approach to whole-tone sampling.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

JTB said:


> Looks like OT take a (w)holistic approach to whole-tone sampling.



Dude, my full BS setup takes half my ram with 2 mics - are you out of your mind? If it was chromatically sampled it would (literally) double in ram.

Also, I have a hard time believing most VSL are actually chromatically sampled. 

You expect me to believe 23 gb vs 160gb (Orchestral Strings 1 vs BS main) and the VSL one is sampled chromatically?

berlin strings has 4(sometimes5) mics - nothing to account for nearly 8x the sample content.


----------



## shawnsingh

ProfoundSilence said:


> Dude, my full BS setup takes half my ram with 2 mics - are you out of your mind? If it was chromatically sampled it would (literally) double in ram.
> 
> Also, I have a hard time believing most VSL are actually chromatically sampled.
> 
> You expect me to believe 23 gb vs 160gb (Orchestral Strings 1 vs BS main) and the VSL one is sampled chromatically?
> 
> berlin strings has 4(sometimes5) mics - nothing to account for nearly 8x the sample content.



dry samples versus wet samples (i.e. length of the reverb tail on one-shot samples and release samples), as well as more velocity layers / round robins might explain the rest.


----------



## Casiquire

ProfoundSilence said:


> Dude, my full BS setup takes half my ram with 2 mics - are you out of your mind? If it was chromatically sampled it would (literally) double in ram.
> 
> Also, I have a hard time believing most VSL are actually chromatically sampled.
> 
> You expect me to believe 23 gb vs 160gb (Orchestral Strings 1 vs BS main) and the VSL one is sampled chromatically?
> 
> berlin strings has 4(sometimes5) mics - nothing to account for nearly 8x the sample content.


Fewer dynamic layers too


----------



## shawnsingh

Actually, just looked in the VSL orchestral strings manual, you can see the # samples per articulation as well as note ranges, round robins and velocity layers. doing the arithmetic, seems like it is whole-tone sampled. But disclaimer - maybe i'm being a dummy and have reasoned about something incorrectly.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Casiquire said:


> Fewer dynamic layers too


Then that's far more noticable than chromatic vs whole time sampling, and the complaint would be very akward

I'd be interested in where VSL said that, I've just never seen that advertised.


----------



## Casiquire

shawnsingh said:


> Actually, just looked in the VSL orchestral strings manual, you can see the # samples per articulation as well as note ranges, round robins and velocity layers. doing the arithmetic, seems like it is whole-tone sampled. But disclaimer - maybe i'm being a dummy and have reasoned about something incorrectly.


The special editions are whole tone, the full libraries are semitone


----------



## shawnsingh

Casiquire said:


> The special editions are whole tone, the full libraries are semitone


Just double checked, I was certainly looking at the Orchestral Strings full library manual. For example Vl short staccato, 336 samples, 4 round robins, and 4 velocity layers, over a 42 note range. but 336/16 = 21. Or sus flautando, only one velocity layer plus release samples (i.e. 2 samples per note) over a 43 note range, but total samples is only 42 again. Maybe I'm missing something?

In any case, even as a string player myself, I don't feel that whole tone sampling had ever betrayed itself in any library I've used.


----------



## Chungus

Oh my. Looks like the walkthrough caused my finger to slip.


----------



## muziksculp

Chungus said:


> Oh my. Looks like the walkthrough caused my finger to slip.



Hi @Chungus ,

*Congratulations. * You made a wise decision, BSS is a great sounding Strings library. 

Enjoy.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## Hendrixon

dzilizzi said:


> I keep telling myself that.
> 
> I'm not sure how many I own now, but it might be bordering on too many because I forget I own some of them.....



Naaaa don't worry... you'll know its too many if one day you'll try to buy a library you already own.


----------



## Simon Ravn

Definitely some nice things regarding the short bows, but this walkthrough has sadly 90% convinced me NOT to get BSS. I can understand why they choose to focus on cellos, since the violins especially seems a bit meeeh. Legato/vibrato etc. isn't very convincing.

I wish they would have shown legatos with different mics in the walkthrough too. They seem to avoid that, but in the cellos, I think it almost sounds like two different recordings layered at the same time. Not that I suspect that is the case, I guess it has to do with the mics chosen, which is also why I would like to hear some different mic settings.


----------



## river angler

Simon Ravn said:


> Definitely some nice things regarding the short bows, but this walkthrough has sadly 90% convinced me NOT to get BSS. I can understand why they choose to focus on cellos, since the violins especially seems a bit meeeh. Legato/vibrato etc. isn't very convincing.
> 
> I wish they would have shown legatos with different mics in the walkthrough too. They seem to avoid that, but in the cellos, I think it almost sounds like two different recordings layered at the same time. Not that I suspect that is the case, I guess it has to do with the mics chosen, which is also why I would like to hear some different mic settings.


Being a very content pro user of their Berlin Inspire Series I too was somewhat dismayed by this walkthrough.

The timbre in itself has a lush sound alright but somehow seems over egged almost as if it's trying too hard to please. It sounds to me like OT are trying to go more "Hollywood" with this latest release which I think is a mistake.

One of the main things that drew me to OT samples originally was that they don't have that over embellished big Hollywood sound: Berlin Inspire/Berlin main has its own unique timbre which to my ears has always sounded beautifully musical rather than overtly cinematically lush. Their previous string libraries have always had the flexibility to sound cinematic without the "Hollywood" razzmatazz other developers seem to always aim for.

Regarding the legato transitions they sound veiled by indeed what results in a layering effect which simply doesn't sound right to my ears. Having said this I have always found their legatos to be a little tricky. I agree that it does actually sound like something funky's going on between the different mic samples that is possibly undoing all their hard work to produce a more convincing legato transition. It may well be that they have in fact nailed a better legato here but somehow we are just not hearing it!

I dare say many will still adopt this library as an alternative to the usual suspects for cinematic strings but for me I think it represents a shift away from the unique classy sound that Orchestral Tools has built its reputation on.


----------



## Vladimir Bulaev

I definitely think the "BSS" incredible suffers from a lack of expressiveness. The musicians are somehow uninspired, dead or sick. And this applies not only to violins, but also to all sections including cellists. Listen to the articulation of "Marcato" they perform it in General lifeless on all dynamic ranges. If on " PP "it is still natural without vibrato, then on" FF " without molto-vibrato it is sad.

Legato isn't impressive either. I think Legato doesn't have enough time to transition, the delay is too small, the transitions are too fast and unreadable to be more convincing especially for slow melodic lines. No transition speed control for Legato?


----------



## ptram

shawnsingh said:


> Just double checked, I was certainly looking at the Orchestral Strings full library manual. For example Vl short staccato, 336 samples, 4 round robins, and 4 velocity layers, over a 42 note range. but 336/16 = 21.


Sus vibrato and dynamic patches seem to match the chromatic-sampling equation. Maybe VSL have sampled something chromatically and something whole tone? With pianos, for example, I seem to understand that the center range is chromatic, the extremes whole tone, depending on how it makes sense.

Appassionata Strings should be whole tone, but I've not counted the samples.

Some times ago I did a comparison between the Full version woodwinds and their SE counterpart, and the difference between chromatic and whole-tone was apparent.

Paolo


----------



## ptram

Noeticus said:


> Ah... what's that add up too?


Not a astrophysicist myself, but for the few tests I did, VSL's bigger-sized strings sections add smoothness. Extreme smoothness. I noticed the same thing in the '66' series by 8Dio.

Paolo


----------



## ptram

holywilly said:


> Did a simple test with my go to strings (VI Dimension Strings + Synchron Strings Pro) layering with BSS.


I find that the example where they are all layered sound clean, precise, beefy and lush. More of the SPP room mics could probably already make the sound lusher, but the BSS layer adds its own smoothing.

Paolo


----------



## holywilly

ptram said:


> I find that the example where they are all layered sound clean, precise, beefy and lush. More of the SPP room mics could probably already make the sound lusher, but the BSS layer adds its own smoothing.
> 
> Paolo


BSS still very sloppy when layering with VSL or on its own, and I find it’s quite technical to program with BSS, more specifically the rapid legato. And the adaptive legato in SINE doesn’t sound convincing. I wonder do they really sample the “fast legato”?

Now I’m still finding a good way to use BSS, someone please enlighten me.


----------



## peladio

Simon Ravn said:


> Definitely some nice things regarding the short bows, but this walkthrough has sadly 90% convinced me NOT to get BSS. I can understand why they choose to focus on cellos, since the violins especially seems a bit meeeh. Legato/vibrato etc. isn't very convincing.


Yeah..same here

Turns out that demos weren't lying..



muziksculp said:


> But..Seriously, You can never have enough Strings Libraries.


Yeah..you can


----------



## peladio

bfreepro said:


> God someone please MAKE THE VOICE OVER GUY GO AWAY... 🤣


I heard Bob is looking for a job..


----------



## Chungus

muziksculp said:


> Hi @Chungus ,
> 
> *Congratulations. * You made a wise decision, BSS is a great sounding Strings library.
> 
> Enjoy.
> 
> Cheers,
> Muziksculp


It has a nice clear tone that I like about Teldex, for sure. Although the legatos are bumpier for me than they sounded in the walkthrough.

Does the patch mentioned by Tobias in the commercial thread come auto-installed? I didn't see anything in 'my licences.'


----------



## jbuhler

Chungus said:


> It has a nice clear tone that I like about Teldex, for sure. Although the legatos are bumpier for me than they sounded in the walkthrough.
> 
> Does the patch mentioned by Tobias in the commercial thread come auto-installed? I didn't see anything in 'my licences.'


Which patch? The update? If you are talking about that you have to download it if you downloaded BSS before they did the update. The update is not large though.


----------



## muziksculp

peladio said:


> I heard Bob is looking for a job..


Can Bob do a heavy German accent ?


----------



## Chungus

jbuhler said:


> Which patch? The update? If you are talking about that you have to download it if you downloaded BSS before they did the update. The update is not large though.


The update, yes. I downloaded BSS a few hours after the update was released, hence my wondering if said update would already be applied to BSS.


----------



## muziksculp

Chungus said:


> The update, yes. I downloaded BSS a few hours after the update was released, hence my wondering if said update would already be applied to BSS.



You most likely installed the latest version of BSS Which is the updated version. Since you didn't have it installed before the Update was released, you would not see any update notification in SINE until the next update.


----------



## Hendrixon

muziksculp said:


> Can Bob do a heavy German accent ?



Bob can do what ever he wants... he is Bob!


----------



## lettucehat

river angler said:


> It may well be that they have in fact nailed a better legato here but somehow we are just not hearing it!



Don’t overthink it, lol.


----------



## dzilizzi

Hendrixon said:


> Naaaa don't worry... you'll know its too many if one day you'll try to buy a library you already own.


I think I may have done that also.......


----------



## Zero&One

dzilizzi said:


> I think I may have done that also.......


I done it with the free Waves plug, picked something I already have 🙄


----------



## Hendrixon

dzilizzi said:


> I think I may have done that also.......



Well in that case I think it would be best to either build a new template or do tests for Alzheimer


----------



## Hendrixon

Zero&One said:


> I done it with the free Waves plug, picked something I already have 🙄



Question is, did it sound better the second time?


----------



## dzilizzi

Hendrixon said:


> Well in that case I think it would be best to either build a new template or do tests for Alzheimer


Nothing too expensive usually. Just some small developer libraries that were inexpensive. And the Addictive Keys Upright that I forgot I got for free from Focusrite.


----------



## Hendrixon

dzilizzi said:


> Nothing too expensive usually. Just some small developer libraries that were inexpensive. And the Addictive Keys Upright that I forgot I got for free from Focusrite.



Its all good, we all have our moments.
Many years ago I had a moment of crazy "wtf?"... it was summer, hot, I was in the middle of programming something without much luck, answering emails etc, and I was thirsty so went to the kitchen with all this stuff running in my head to get a cold drink.

So I opened the cupboard, took a glass, turned to face the fridge, opened the freezer (!) door, put the glass in the freezer(!!), and like on auto pilot pushed the freezer door to close it(!!!).
As the door swiveled and about to close, I'm like suddenly "woke up" from the thoughts, looking on the glass IN THE FREEZER, seeing the door closing and going like:

"What the fuck just happened?!"  

I couldn't believe that I did something like that, like is this a red flag and I'm getting old? I was in my mid 30s LOL
I stood there for a minute, actually scared to open the freezer lol


I'm happy to report that since then nothing like that have happened again


----------



## Raphioli

Simon Ravn said:


> I can understand why they choose to focus on cellos, since the violins especially seems a bit meeeh.


This is exactly how I felt when watching the walkthrough.


----------



## Trash Panda

This thread has it all. Thanks for the entertainment and helping increase the value of my Orville Redenbacher stock.


----------



## dzilizzi

Hendrixon said:


> Its all good, we all have our moments.
> Many years ago I had a moment of crazy "wtf?"... it was summer, hot, I was in the middle of programming something without much luck, answering emails etc, and I was thirsty so went to the kitchen with all this stuff running in my head to get a cold drink.
> 
> So I opened the cupboard, took a glass, turned to face the fridge, opened the freezer (!) door, put the glass in the freezer(!!), and like on auto pilot pushed the freezer door to close it(!!!).
> As the door swiveled and about to close, I'm like suddenly "woke up" from the thoughts, looking on the glass IN THE FREEZER, seeing the door closing and going like:
> 
> "What the fuck just happened?!"
> 
> I couldn't believe that I did something like that, like is this a red flag and I'm getting old? I was in my mid 30s LOL
> I stood there for a minute, actually scared to open the freezer lol
> 
> 
> I'm happy to report that since then nothing like that have happened again


During a normal year, I travel for work a lot. Makes it a little hard when I see a great deal while on the road not to just grab it and figure it out later. Much easier when developers have a website that tracks what you own first. But your case sounds like more a lack of sleep/doing too much than anything else.


----------



## Pianolando

The walkthrough sounded amazing to my ears. Highlights for me, apart from the basic lush sound, was the slurred and pattern legato. Both of these sound very realistic to me compared to competing libraries from other companies. BS has been my workhorse library since it’s release and neither of the libraries I’ve bought since has been able to replace it except for very specialized tasks, so I guess my taste is close to what OT aims for.


----------



## Vladimir Bulaev

Is it just me or does StaffPad make Berlin Strings sound much better than a Kontakt version library? Note the smoothness of the Legato. It seems like a completely different library. What are your thoughts?


----------



## Toecutter

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> Is it just me or does StaffPad make Berlin Strings sound much better than a Kontakt version library? Note the smoothness of the Legato. It seems like a completely different library. What are your thoughts?



Always had this impression. If the developer did a desktop version of the app more suited for MIDI controller work, I'd jump in instantly. The playback engine is great.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

ka00 said:


> Yeah, it was the first thing in noticed after getting the BST library on StaffPad. I wonder if the playback engine has some greater ability to look ahead because the notes don’t have to be played in manually in real time.
> 
> Legato on most libraries seems better on StaffPad.



Unfortunately I hate entering things with staff pad, but to a degree there are some things notation can do better because it's not designed for real time.

Realistically if a company like OT recorded notation playback libraries instead of sample libraries they would do it differently, but staff pad doesn't need to be the format.


----------



## muziksculp

Looking forward to using Berlin Strings, and it's Expansions, plus First Chairs in SINE.

Hopefully soon. I don't use Staffpad.


----------



## Jett Hitt

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> Is it just me or does StaffPad make Berlin Strings sound much better than a Kontakt version library? Note the smoothness of the Legato. It seems like a completely different library. What are your thoughts?



StaffPad's playback is amazing, and I feel fairly certain that it is the future. Sonically, the sound isn't as sophisticated as the Kontakt version, but the expression is hard to replicate. I have actually exported a stem from StaffPad and then used the stem as a guide within Logic. I am not sure how much of his soul David William Hearn sold to pull this off, but the magic of the StaffPad playback engine is real. And the credit for editing the Berlin Strings library for StaffPad all goes to David.


----------



## Vladimir Bulaev

Jett Hitt said:


> StaffPad's playback is amazing, and I feel fairly certain that it is the future. Sonically, the sound isn't as sophisticated as the Kontakt version, but the expression is hard to replicate. I have actually exported a stem from StaffPad and then used the stem as a guide within Logic. I am not sure how much of his soul David William Hearn sold to pull this off, but the magic of the StaffPad playback engine is real. And the credit for editing the Berlin Strings library for StaffPad all goes to David.


That explains a lot! If these are indeed the old sample recordings, and not the new ones, then they were in the right hands.


----------



## Akarin

Robin said:


> I played around with it a bit today as I wanted to see how well it behaves in a type of piece that I would call the "butter zone" for such a library:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I wanted to see how it holds up against my current go to library for such things (CSS), so here's the comparison:
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,




CSS eats BSS lunch in this one. They are not in the same league. Hell, they don't even play the same game! 

Thanks for this comparison, it puts my GAS to rest.


----------



## muziksculp

Akarin said:


> CSS eats BSS lunch in this one. They are not in the same league. Hell, they don't even play the same game!
> 
> Thanks for this comparison, it puts my GAS to rest.



Yes, especially when the demo maker doesn't use/know how to use BSS properly.


----------



## Bman70

Akarin said:


> CSS eats BSS lunch in this one. They are not in the same league. Hell, they don't even play the same game!
> 
> Thanks for this comparison, it puts my GAS to rest.




I still think this example is BSS obligingly trying to play CSS's game. For whatever reason the composition / performance favors CSS... But the tones aren't in competition because CSS can't approach the sort of epic soaring quality of BSS. At the same time, BSS can't approach the smaller more intimate expressiveness of CSS. 

Really these probably shouldn't try to fill the same niche; at least I would prefer to own both for different uses. If I want strings for a widescreen panorama helicopter shot of grassy plains with thundering herds of buffalo, I'm reaching for BSS hands down.


----------



## Akarin

muziksculp said:


> Yes, especially when the demo maker doesn't use/know how to use BSS properly.



Ha! This is interesting... I've just clicked on the links and listened without thinking further as I'm familiar with the author's soundcloud and really enjoy his work.


----------



## muziksculp

Bman70 said:


> I still think this example is BSS obligingly trying to play CSS's game. For whatever reason the composition / performance favors CSS... But the tones aren't in competition because CSS can't approach the sort of epic soaring quality of BSS. At the same time, BSS can't approach the smaller more intimate expressiveness of CSS.



CSS can sound like it's a big strings section, it doesn't sound like an intimate string ensemble.

imho. the BSS demos is just not crafted with a lot of know how, as far as using BSS, the demo maker surely knows how to use CSS much better than BSS. Also don't forget BSS is new library, it will take some time for users of BSS to know how to use to produce optimal results.


----------



## muziksculp

Akarin said:


> Ha! This is interesting... I've just clicked on the links and listened without thinking further as I'm familiar with the author's soundcloud and really enjoy his work.



And how many BSS demos does he have posted ?


----------



## Fitz

How are the shorts in this library?


----------



## Akarin

muziksculp said:


> And how many BSS demos does he have posted ?



No clue. It's just a composer whom I like the style. I'm always interested to hear what a new library sounds in the hands of people I'm familiar with. Especially before spending weeks to learn it 😊


----------



## muziksculp

Fitz said:


> How are the shorts in this library?



Superb !


----------



## muziksculp

Akarin said:


> No clue. It's just a composer whom I like the style. I'm always interested to hear what a new library sounds in the hands of people I'm familiar with. Especially before spending weeks to learn it 😊



@Akarin,

I feel it's a bit of a rushed conclusion that CSS is much better at this than BSS. That's all I'm trying to indicate here.


----------



## muziksculp

Bman70 said:


> I still think this example is BSS obligingly trying to play CSS's game. For whatever reason the composition / performance favors CSS.



No, sorry, not the composition, but the user, most likely lack of experience of using BSS. He must be using CSS for a few years, and BSS for a few hrs/days so that is the factor.


----------



## Akarin

muziksculp said:


> @Akarin,
> 
> I feel it's a bit of a rushed conclusion that CSS is much better at this than BSS. That's all I'm trying to indicate here.



Alright 

I'd be quite interested to hear something from you using BSS. Who knows? I still could be convinced to get them!


----------



## andyhy

Purge seems to work differently in BSS but I can find no explanation in the walkthrough or anywhere else for that matter. Is it purging all unused samples or just the instrument you have selected at that time? Maybe OT thought it was obvious but the GUI design in BSS is different to other SINE products so OT should clarify its functionality, what its red status means etc.


----------



## Robin

muziksculp said:


> imho. the BSS demos is just not crafted with a lot of know how, as far as using BSS, the demo maker surely knows how to use CSS much better than BSS. Also don't forget BSS is new library, it will take some time for users of BSS to know how to use to produce optimal results.


It's fascinating to see what kind of arguments are fabricated out of thin air in this thread to find reasons why my BSS and CSS demos sound the way they do. One claimed I was "playing in" the CSS demo and didn't do so with the BSS (which is not true). Now it's my lack of experience with BSS.

I'm sorry, but this really is no rocket science but a single legato patch per instrument in an exposed context. This was the whole idea of this demo. I wanted to try it out in a simple context that would not leave too much room for "midi programming errors". In case of BSS you have exactly one parameter (CC1) to additionally influence the performance of the legato line, in case of CSS you have two (CC1 plus transition speed through velocity). I would let the argument of "learn how to use the library properly" slip by in a case of a library like let's say Sample Modelling Brass but in this case it really doesn't make a lot of sense, does it?

I'm really curious to know what kind of parameters you think I could have used differently with these legato patches in order to make BSS perform considerably better.

Having said that, I did not yet try it with the new updated patches which might improve things and will give them a go as soon as I'm back at work.

It is true that this kind of piece obviously works better with CSS than BSS but after all BSS was advertised as being a library that would perform expressively on legato, so the argument of "This piece compositionally unfairly favours CSS" is just as ridiculous.

I have almost all of OT libraries and really like them as they even build the fundament of my template, I have my fair share of experience using CAPSULE and SINE as well as Cinematic Studios libraries so I'm not biased towards either of the two developers. I pick the libraries I use based on what gets the job done better and not "because it's developer X". But after all, this is just string libraries, I REALLY don't get the point how some people in this thread jump at the defense of either of the developers as if it was a battle they need to fight instead of being grateful that we live in times where everybody can choose out of dozens of libraries according to their liking.

Robin


----------



## Sips Tea

Robin said:


> It's fascinating to see what kind of arguments are fabricated out of thin air in this thread to find reasons why my BSS and CSS demos sound the way they do. One claimed I was "playing in" the CSS demo and didn't do so with the BSS (which is not true). Now it's my lack of experience with BSS.
> 
> I'm sorry, but this really is no rocket science but a single legato patch per instrument in an exposed context. This was the whole idea of this demo. I wanted to try it out in a simple context that would not leave too much room for "midi programming errors". In case of BSS you have exactly one parameter (CC1) to additionally influence the performance of the legato line, in case of CSS you have two (CC1 plus transition speed through velocity). I would let the argument of "learn how to use the library properly" slip by in a case of a library like let's say Sample Modelling Brass but in this case it really doesn't make a lot of sense, does it?
> 
> I'm really curious to know what kind of parameters you think I could have used differently with these legato patches in order to make BSS perform considerably better.
> 
> Having said that, I did not yet try it with the new updated patches which might improve things and will give them a go as soon as I'm back at work.
> 
> It is true that this kind of piece obviously works better with CSS than BSS but after all BSS was advertised as being a library that would perform expressively on legato, so the argument of "This piece compositionally unfairly favours CSS" is just as ridiculous.
> 
> I have almost all of OT libraries and really like them as they even build the fundament of my template, I have my fair share of experience using CAPSULE and SINE as well as Cinematic Studios libraries so I'm not biased towards either of the two developers. I pick the libraries I use based on what gets the job done better and not "because it's developer X". But after all, this is just string libraries, I REALLY don't get the point how some people in this thread jump at the defense of either of the developers as if it was a battle they need to fight instead of being grateful that we live in times where everybody can choose out of dozens of libraries according to their liking.
> 
> Robin


*sips tea* Well Said! *nods head*


----------



## AudioLoco

Robin said:


> It's fascinating to see what kind of arguments are fabricated out of thin air in this thread to find reasons why my BSS and CSS demos sound the way they do. One claimed I was "playing in" the CSS demo and didn't do so with the BSS (which is not true). Now it's my lack of experience with BSS.
> 
> I'm sorry, but this really is no rocket science but a single legato patch per instrument in an exposed context. This was the whole idea of this demo. I wanted to try it out in a simple context that would not leave too much room for "midi programming errors". In case of BSS you have exactly one parameter (CC1) to additionally influence the performance of the legato line, in case of CSS you have two (CC1 plus transition speed through velocity). I would let the argument of "learn how to use the library properly" slip by in a case of a library like let's say Sample Modelling Brass but in this case it really doesn't make a lot of sense, does it?
> 
> I'm really curious to know what kind of parameters you think I could have used differently with these legato patches in order to make BSS perform considerably better.
> 
> Having said that, I did not yet try it with the new updated patches which might improve things and will give them a go as soon as I'm back at work.
> 
> It is true that this kind of piece obviously works better with CSS than BSS but after all BSS was advertised as being a library that would perform expressively on legato, so the argument of "This piece compositionally unfairly favours CSS" is just as ridiculous.
> 
> I have almost all of OT libraries and really like them as they even build the fundament of my template, I have my fair share of experience using CAPSULE and SINE as well as Cinematic Studios libraries so I'm not biased towards either of the two developers. I pick the libraries I use based on what gets the job done better and not "because it's developer X". But after all, this is just string libraries, I REALLY don't get the point how some people in this thread jump at the defense of either of the developers as if it was a battle they need to fight instead of being grateful that we live in times where everybody can choose out of dozens of libraries according to their liking.
> 
> Robin


I think you did a great service to the VI Control string-crazy community with that demo.
I already formed an opinion from the initial presentation, but that comparison just confirmed my perception of that library being a bit "stiff"... 

The polarization around a string library is silly. Me no like, no use, you like, you use.

I think there are enough demos and walkthroughs etc to manage to have an informed opinion about this new release.
OT is a great company and Ark4 is one of my favorite libraries EVER, but I think they rushed it a bit with this one, or just missed the mark. Happens also to the best.


----------



## MGdepp

I will say it again and again, if necessary: users on ViC trying to suppress critical thoughts on libraries are not doing the community of the forum a favor ... please stop being touchy about products you bought! I also bought this library and pretty much concur with Robins thoughts on it. In fact, meanwhile I have done some tests on a well known piece that fits the "very expressive legato" description and may offer another comparison as soon as it is ready.


----------



## lettucehat

Looking forward to the day when it's finally appropriate to judge BSS based on audio produced by people who own BSS. Just let us know, I guess.


----------



## Jerry Growl

Robin said:


> In case of BSS you have exactly one parameter (CC1) to additionally influence the performance of the legato line, in case of CSS you have two (CC1 plus transition speed through velocity). I would let the argument of "learn how to use the library properly" slip by in a case of a library like let's say Sample Modelling Brass but in this case it really doesn't make a lot of sense, does it?


I still think the comparison is apples and oranges. And maybe the orange was a bit shaped to look like an apple... (my opinion entirely)

Also I think you would agree you could have done an even better job creating more variation with BSS using the sustain soft, sustain accent and sustain patches (where you can enable two of the 3 legato types, depending on fast or slow playing). Also the vibrato type is (slightly) variable and the dynamic range can be enhanced using the 'soft layer' and 'cut off' options in the dynamic options menu... Just to conclude a different brush takes a different brushing technique a painter would say.

Also IMO the mic options could give a much nicer sound combining spot 2 (vintage mics), a bit of leader, tree and a bit of outrigger (isn't that a Spitfire registered brand?)...

Anyway, I have only yesterday downloaded BSS and noodled about and I just really like it. Combining BSS with BS and the Arks will greatly enhance (and deliver body to ) the overall dynamic range and impact of my strings sections. And then I'm not mentioning this large bulky bunch of strings handle fast legato pretty well...


----------



## Zero&One

lettucehat said:


> Looking forward to the day when it's finally appropriate to judge BSS based on audio produced by people who own BSS. Just let us know, I guess.



It's the duty and responsibility of vi-c to first judge how crap Opus, AROOF and MSS is first. Can't rush these things.


----------



## Robin

Jerry Growl said:


> I still think the comparison is apples and oranges. And maybe the orange was a bit shaped to look like an apple... (my opinion entirely)


I read that sentence a few times now without any argument following it so I would be interested to know why you feel like the comparison in this specific context is not justified.


Jerry Growl said:


> Also I think you would agree you could have done an even better job creating more variation with BSS using the sustain soft, sustain accent and sustain patches (where you can enable two of the 3 legato types, depending on fast or slow playing). Also the vibrato type is (slightly) variable and the dynamic range can be enhanced using the 'soft layer' and 'cut off' options in the dynamic options menu... Just to conclude a different brush takes a different brushing technique a painter would say.
> 
> Also IMO the mic options could give a much nicer sound combining spot 2 (vintage mics), a bit of leader, tree and a bit of outrigger (isn't that a Spitfire registered brand?)...


You might not believe it, but I used all these things including the different attacks on this demo (as I always do with OT libraries). But then again, changing the attack of the first note of a long legato line doesn't really have much influence on the performance of that entire passage. I used the expressive vibrato because the other option made the interpretation of these lines even less expressive, so just varying this for the sake of it doesn't have any benefit for the piece. The piece is obviously relying only on slow legato so changing any of the legato types to fast legato doesn't make sense either.

As I wrote in one of my initial posts, I worked with the different mic positions, but generally, mic positions change the tone but not the performance, which is the more problematic issue with the library.

So, I'm sorry, but all the things you list obviously are not applicable for this piece and none of these things drastically influence the interpretation of the consicously chosen limited approach that I took with this piece.


----------



## Jerry Growl

Robin said:


> I read that sentence a few times now without any argument following it so I would be interested to know why you feel like the comparison in this specific context is not justified.



Actually the comparison queries "Can BSS do what CSS does?" But maybe a benchmark the other way "Can CSS do what you just did with BSS ?" is a more interesting approach.

To exaggerate: With a symphonic string section you don't expect Mozart's 'Eine kleine Nachtmusik' to sound as subtle as a chamber sized string section. (There is a reason why composers usually indicate the amount of required string players)

Comparison maybe has value for some, but it doesn't do it for me. Simply because it's a different tool.


----------



## Sovereign

Jerry Growl said:


> Hi, thnx for the reply. I thought or hoped 'apples and oranges' covered what I hoped to imply. Being an entirely different library, I would think, had you originally loaded BSS before anything else, you would have written an entirely different piece of music.
> 
> To exaggerate: With a symphonic string section you don't expect Mozart's 'Eine kleine Nachtmusik' to sound as subtle as a chamber sized string section.



CSS is not chamber-sized, so why the faulty analogy? And why should Robin write "an entirely different piece of music"? From a flagship library such as BSS one should be able to expect plenty of flexibility as to what it should be capable of. No one is asking it to sound small, but whether it can play soft and emotional. It really can't at this moment, due to design choices/flaws. And a string section even this big most definitely should be able to.

Just to give you an idea, in this emotional (soft) piece (original and my CSS mockup here) Williams calls for 32 violins, 14 violas, 12 cellos and 8 basses, on the original written score. Pretty much BSS size, yet BSS can't really approach this kind of sound as well as I think it should. OT could potentially 'fix' this to a degree (recording slower intervals, more expressive vibrato in the lower dynamics) but they would need to implement such necessary changes.


----------



## peladio

MGdepp said:


> I will say it again and again, if necessary: users on ViC trying to suppress critical thoughts on libraries are not doing the community of the forum a favor ... please stop being touchy about products you bought! I also bought this library and pretty much concur with Robins thoughts on it. In fact, meanwhile I have done some tests on a well known piece that fits the "very expressive legato" description and may offer another comparison as soon as it is ready.


Say it again louder for muziksculp..

First non-owners weren't allowed to comment and criticise..

Then people compared it to CSS which is kind of a standard so it makes sense that it gets compared with it..and they were labeled as 'fanboys'

Then very knowledgeable composers like Robin offered a very good comparison and demos and suddenly they don't know what are they doing..it's ridiculous..

Also there isn't anything wrong with liking a particular company or product..however, not having a modicum of objectivity..thinking that a particular company can't do anything wrong..posting exclusively on those threads..being disrespectful who anyone who doesn't agree..see the difference? Grown-ass people getting touchy about samples is frankly tragicomical..


----------



## ansthenia

I get the impression some people are just desperately trying to convince others a product they've just bought is amazing in order to justify their own purchase and feel better about buying it.


----------



## Jerry Growl

I have made my point and I'm not going to repeat it.

Besides defending a recent purchase I defend the reason I purchased it.

Imagine what would happen if my wife found out I bought another library, and not even a good one as most people are doing their best to underline without even a thorough look.


----------



## novaburst

Robin said:


> One claimed I was "playing in" the CSS demo and didn't do so with the BSS (which is not true). Now it's my lack of experience with BSS.



Yes that was me please accept my apology, if this was not the case

In truth when i herd the demo the BBS sounded very unbalanced completely different to what i am hearing when i use them hence my comment.

to me the legatos are pretty up there and sound very good in BSS i do own some very good string library's with some great legatos,

I think the problem is your trying to make a bus do what a Formula 1 sports car does, and it just want work no matter how you put it across, you need two buses to compare or two F1 cars. the two of them drive very different,

I think what you need to do is pull out vista or con motto or SSpro and compare that with CSS they are more of a match and i think they kind of work similar.

Issues as of now with BSS is very noisy background not sure how OTs can sort that out.

But you cant use a hammer like you use a sword it just want work

Certain melodic lines will do but for agile lines you will need something smaller hence if you had BS this would be a perfect match.

I said this before a new string library is not there to replace your existing one, i find it hard to believe that you purchased BSS to replace CSS, if not why compare the two.

BSS has its role in music and CSS has its role, ok criticize or slam it BSS but be constructive and positive while your doing it dont make fun of the developers (*speaking to the many comments by others) OTs* normally get back and sort a lot of issues out with there products so give them a chance and let the library grow

If i herd your demo and comments before i purchased i perhaps would have had second thoughts but i am so glad i went ahead and got BSS and they do not sound like your demos


----------



## Jerry Growl

Sovereign said:


> Just to give you an idea, in this emotional (soft) piece (original and my CSS mockup here) Williams calls for 32 violins, 14 violas, 12 cellos and 8 basses, on the original written score. Pretty much BSS size, yet BSS can't really approach this kind of sound as well as I think it should. OT could potentially 'fix' this to a degree (recording slower intervals, more expressive vibrato in the lower dynamics) but they would need to implement such necessary changes.


I'm actually interested to hear the result of your best effort on your BSS approach on the same mockup


----------



## ism

There’s no question that CSS wins hands down in that comparison. 

It’s a fabulous CSS piece which sounds like it was composed right to the ‘butter zone’ sweet spot if CSS. Wheras I don’t hear any if the sweet spots of BSS being played to. There question was ‘can BSS do the “butter zone’ sweet spot of CSS?” 

But why would it? 

And I don’t hear any of the really beautiful sweet spots that BSS clearly has being hit in this piece, not *any* of the new expressive space that BSS opens up being accessed. 

So it’s a good data point to check “no” beside the question “is BSS basically a CSS clone?”. Robin adds further valuable insight in his comments, that also indicate that is simply doesn’t have the same kind playability of CSS either. So that a second data point.


I just wouldn’t to to shut down all possibilities of a new library bases on many further this very limited data. 



(And those crying intellectual persecution .... really? Don’t you think there are legitimate questions of differing sweet spots and differing aesthetics and keeping an open mind as people discover new sweet spots ... before simply saying ‘not CSS’ and ending the conversation?)

Anyway, a very beautiful CSS composition Robin, I really enjoyed it.


----------



## Robin

Jerry Growl said:


> Hi, thnx for the reply. I thought or hoped 'apples and oranges' covered what I hoped to imply. Being an entirely different library, I would think, had you originally loaded BSS before anything else, you would have written an entirely different piece of music.
> 
> Actually the comparison queries "Can BSS do what CSS does?" But maybe a benchmark the other way "Can CSS do what you just did with BSS ?" is a more interesting approach.
> 
> To exaggerate: With a symphonic string section you don't expect Mozart's 'Eine kleine Nachtmusik' to sound as subtle as a chamber sized string section. (There is a reason why composers usually indicate the amount of required string players)
> 
> Comparison maybe has value for some, but it doesn't do it for me. Simply because it's a different tool.


I wrote that piece in Dorico, without a library in mind but just as I would write it for real players. I think consciously writing with the limitation of sample libraries in mind is one of the worst things you can do and in fact it is one of the worst symptoms of current media music.

I don't see that the comparison is invalid. BSS is marketed as an expressive legato library so it is absolutely fair to test this claim against the (in my opinion) top of the class library in this regard. Just because the lineup of BSS is larger than CSS doesn't make this comparison invalid. In reality the only difference between the two would be the substance of sound. It is not naturally given that the larger string section would sound less expressive than the smaller one. So if BSS is advertised as being an expressive library for legato writing, it needs to allow for a test against a library that is considered to shine at this as well. So no, there is no apple vs. oranges going on here. It is a comparison at the same level of two libraries that claim to be very good at the sort of writing that I used here.

The above also applies to these comments:



novaburst said:


> I think the problem is your trying to make a bus do what a Formula 1 sports car does, and it just want work no matter how you put it across, you need two buses to compare or two F1 cars. the two of them drive very different,





novaburst said:


> I said this before a new string library is not there to replace your existing one, i find it hard to believe that you purchased BSS to replace CSS, if not why compare the two.


----------



## Dmitry

Hello folk. Could anyone who own BSS do an multitrack with all mic, just a any simple pattern of strings section(ta-ta-ta e.g.) (vln1 spot1, vln1 spot2...vln2 spot1, vln2 spot2...tree, sur) Thanks =)


----------



## novaburst

@Robin are you really saying that you cant write any thing for this library that is emotional and expressive


----------



## Robin

novaburst said:


> @Robin are you really saying that you cant write any thing for this library that is emotional and expressive


I never said that. This issue is more than black and white, I'm afraid.


----------



## Kevinside

The walkthrough covers the mic positions in detail...


----------



## Zero&One

I played the example to 4 friends yesterday.

Our vision.
All 4 started crying at the CSS version. One even said it touched parts of him he never knew could be touched. We had to take a break for Lucy.
Dave vomited up my turkey rolls on hearing BSS version. Lucy left as she said those legatos were simply disgusting... even compared it to my Yorkshire puddings. Dave hasn't been back since.

Reality version.

All 4 said they both sound fine. 2 of them also said "these are different??".


----------



## FrozenIcicle

Zero&One said:


> I played the example to 4 friends yesterday.
> 
> Our vision.
> All 4 started crying at the CCS version. One even said it touched parts of him he never knew could be touched. We had to take a break for Lucy.
> Dave vomited up my turkey rolls on hearing BSS version. Lucy left as she said those legatos were simply disgusting... even compared it to my Yorkshire puddings. Dave hasn't been back since.
> 
> Reality version.
> 
> All 4 said they both sound fine. 2 of them also said "these are different??".


Wow


----------



## novaburst

Robin said:


> I never said that. This issue is more than black and white, I'm afraid.



You may need a different approach with this BSS but definitely you can be very expressive, and you can make the library bend to your needs if you want, 

generally librarys will work different some need more application than others while some sound and work great out of the box, 

and some you will need to give a lot of your time, while there are some issues with BSS it want stop you from making music and i mean great music


----------



## Robin

novaburst said:


> You may need a different approach with this BSS but definitely you can be very expressive, and you can make the library bend to your needs if you want,


What different approach would that be?


----------



## Toecutter

Robin said:


> I played around with it a bit today as I wanted to see how well it behaves in a type of piece that I would call the "butter zone" for such a library:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I wanted to see how it holds up against my current go to library for such things (CSS), so here's the comparison:
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,



Thanks for this! Love all my OT libraries but here CSS is in a different league. I had the impression from the live stream that BSS sounded like a glorified Roland strings pad. And it has nothing to do with the ensemble size. It's just not expressive enough even if they are marketing it as "rich, cinematic sound with large sections for creating vivid string arrangements". Other than the "large sections" I just can't hear the rich and vivid string sound in this library. Your example illustrates it perfectly, BSS is just not expressive enough to pull an emotional cue like Don't Go, where I think it should, regardless of the size of the sections.


----------



## shponglefan

Toecutter said:


> I had the impression from the live stream that BSS sounded like a glorified Roland strings pad.



Hey now, some of us *like* Roland string pads.


----------



## Sovereign

novaburst said:


> You may need a different approach with this BSS but definitely you can be very expressive, and you can make the library bend to your needs if you want,
> 
> generally librarys will work different some need more application than others while some sound and work great out of the box,
> 
> and some you will need to give a lot of your time, while there are some issues with BSS it want stop you from making music and i mean great music


That is not gonna work as you can't 'bend' the library to have more vibrato, better phrasing or smoother legato. Those aspects are pretty much defined the moment they are recorded in the studio, and after that also depend on the quality of editing and scripting.


----------



## shawnsingh

Let's have some concrete constructive discussion -

Attached is Adagio for Strings programmed with BSS. This piece is a tough challenge for high powerful violins in the climax, as well as for consistent buttery smooth melodic legato at various dynamics. Comments and feedback welcome. Please forgive any wrong notes or bad tempo.

To my ear personally, BSS meets the challenge and I think it turned out really good. Totally OK if you disagree, I'd be interested in a reality check about it so that I don't fool myself. I know there's a few places in the middle I didn't put enough CC tweaking effort, especially around that famously awkward cello note around 2:30. 

Some interesting insights to share from this experience, about the "bumpy legato" and "sterile/weak" violin sound:

The "bumpy legato" issue can 95% be solved by a combination of (a) adjusting the legato volume level in Sine player for that articulation and (b) manually programming in your own CC "dips" to counteract the "bumps".
Yes, it's completely fair to say that users shouldn't have to work around bumpy legato with additional effort. But still, I'm just saying, it's possible to overcome it. I do think there's a good chance it's something OT may be able to fix over time - they already improved it with the library update, and with any luck, it can be addressed entirely with more updates.
I have a hypothesis why many of us feel like the violins are "weak" or "sterile" sounding, especially in the high register - it's because the dark timbre hides a lot of what's going on in the sound. Adding a significant EQ bump in high frequencies reveals a decent amount of vibrato, the subtle sound of rebows, and just makes it more obvious how expressive the violins really are. So far, the EQ I tried is a very wide Q, peaking around 10 kHz, at +10 dB. On Adagio for Strings in the climax, it really does make a huge difference and sounds beautiful.
Despite this EQ thing, it does require volume automation or layering to increase the volume of violins a bit. To program Adagio for Strings, a few places I wanted to layer marcatos and sustains together anyway, so I used two violin 1 patches to get that extra 3-6 dB of volume at the climax.
Wish it were possible to avoid the violin E-string when desired - in someplaces it sounds too bright on Violins 1
I was too lazy to automate the vibrato control, I'm sure it would have made a really good difference at the ending.


----------



## Jerry Growl

Robin said:


> I wrote that piece in Dorico, without a library in mind but just as I would write it for real players. I think consciously writing with the limitation of sample libraries in mind is one of the worst things you can do and in fact it is one of the worst symptoms of current media music.


Good point. With live players in mind both versions fail by comparison. Especially the long held hi D at the end in the violins doesn't flatter either library.



shawnsingh said:


> Let's have some concrete constructive discussion -


Excellent and very welcome addition


----------



## Dmitry

@shawnsingh what is mics you used?


----------



## novaburst

Sovereign said:


> That is not gonna work as you can't 'bend' the library to have more vibrato, better phrasing or smoother legato. Those aspects are pretty much defined the moment they are recorded in the studio, and after that also depend on the quality of editing and scripting.


We just heard a very nice piece of music over 7mins long from @shawnsingh here is the difference he did mot come out to expose any short comings of the library or show any comparison he just wanted to write a piece of music and he made it work, and that s it, he purchased the library and he used it,
and made very nice music


----------



## [email protected]

@novaburst it's the _Adagio for Strings_ by Samuel Barber, one of the most popular pieces of classical music.
So by mocking up this piece known by (mostly) all of us it solved the purpose of testing the library, spotting its strengths and weaknesses. And of course shawnsigh wanted to compare it because most of us have heard this piece in many live recordings, I also attended a live performance of it long ago.

But yes, Barber made some very nice music and shawnsigh made a very nice mockup.


----------



## novaburst

I thought he wrote it sorry have so many classical music but couldn't tell you most of who wrote them unless it was on a film but i really thought that he wrote that 

oh well there you go

any way i think BSS are the best strings out there so take that, oh yer we got MSS to come yet Hmmmm i wonder 

This has been a hell of a stringy end of year.............is there any strings attracted to your comment


----------



## Sovereign

novaburst said:


> We just heard a very nice piece of music over 7mins long from @shawnsingh here is the difference he did mot come out to expose any short comings of the library or show any comparison he just wanted to write a piece of music and he made it work, and that s it, he purchased the library and he used it,
> and made very nice music


And your point is? Don't criticize a library and reveal any shortcomings, play music instead? Be more clear about what you're trying to say to me here, I'm not getting it. It is great that Shawnsingh made it work for him in that context, and he feels positive about it, but compared to any real recording of Adagio for Strings I kinda find it lacking for a number of reasons, and that is not his fault.


ka00 said:


> 5:29-5:49 sounds wonderful.


Yeah the low strings are actually kinda nice, and for that part the timid vibrato fits like a glove.


----------



## [email protected]

novaburst said:


> I thought he wrote it sorry have so many classical music but couldn't tell you most of who wrote them unless it was on a film [...]


I can help out


----------



## Casiquire

Sovereign said:


> That is not gonna work as you can't 'bend' the library to have more vibrato, better phrasing or smoother legato. Those aspects are pretty much defined the moment they are recorded in the studio, and after that also depend on the quality of editing and scripting.


You sure can. Using more leader mics, for example, highlights the vibrato; turning them off and using more ambient mics washes vibrato away.


shawnsingh said:


> Let's have some concrete constructive discussion -
> 
> Attached is Adagio for Strings programmed with BSS. This piece is a tough challenge for high powerful violins in the climax, as well as for consistent buttery smooth melodic legato at various dynamics. Comments and feedback welcome. Please forgive any wrong notes or bad tempo.
> 
> To my ear personally, BSS meets the challenge and I think it turned out really good. Totally OK if you disagree, I'd be interested in a reality check about it so that I don't fool myself. I know there's a few places in the middle I didn't put enough CC tweaking effort, especially around that famously awkward cello note around 2:30.
> 
> Some interesting insights to share from this experience, about the "bumpy legato" and "sterile/weak" violin sound:
> 
> The "bumpy legato" issue can 95% be solved by a combination of (a) adjusting the legato volume level in Sine player for that articulation and (b) manually programming in your own CC "dips" to counteract the "bumps".
> Yes, it's completely fair to say that users shouldn't have to work around bumpy legato with additional effort. But still, I'm just saying, it's possible to overcome it. I do think there's a good chance it's something OT may be able to fix over time - they already improved it with the library update, and with any luck, it can be addressed entirely with more updates.
> I have a hypothesis why many of us feel like the violins are "weak" or "sterile" sounding, especially in the high register - it's because the dark timbre hides a lot of what's going on in the sound. Adding a significant EQ bump in high frequencies reveals a decent amount of vibrato, the subtle sound of rebows, and just makes it more obvious how expressive the violins really are. So far, the EQ I tried is a very wide Q, peaking around 10 kHz, at +10 dB. On Adagio for Strings in the climax, it really does make a huge difference and sounds beautiful.
> Despite this EQ thing, it does require volume automation or layering to increase the volume of violins a bit. To program Adagio for Strings, a few places I wanted to layer marcatos and sustains together anyway, so I used two violin 1 patches to get that extra 3-6 dB of volume at the climax.
> Wish it were possible to avoid the violin E-string when desired - in someplaces it sounds too bright on Violins 1
> I was too lazy to automate the vibrato control, I'm sure it would have made a really good difference at the ending.


I started off really unsure until i got to that swell around 0:30. Oh yeah. This library can be expressive for sure. Not only that but it can go from sounding fairly small and quiet to *enormous*. I haven't heard any indication CSS can reach that breadth and sheer weight of sound, likely due to the room and number of players. I do hear a couple legato bumps but no library is perfect as far as that goes. I can also hear that this is a library where you NEED to ride the mod wheel. Make it look like a dang roller coaster.


----------



## novaburst

Sovereign said:


> And your point is? Don't criticize a library and reveal any shortcomings, play music instead?


Its hard to say i would rather raise a ticket, i think by damming a library on a forum you could turn users away from it and i am not sure if that is my job, if things dont get fixed then we can give them a miss next time, in truth it can really sound like anti OTs for most of the thread, because the BSS library is really good but how you guys were going on about it and some of the poor demos posted you kind of made it unusable but it is far from that, its like one starts the it snow balls into a sense of bad vibe and feeling your aiming at the Developer so yer raise a ticket

My point was with the very nice music @shawnsingh that was made i never heard BSS or Adagio, or CSS if he used that too what happened was i just heard good music, it didn't even matter what String library he used i just heard good music and thats what happens when you do good music what you used to do it with becomes irrelevant


----------



## shawnsingh

Dmitry said:


> @shawnsingh what is mics you used?



Mic mix:
-5 dBFS Tree,
0 dBFS Outrigger

Mixing chain on master bus (applies to all strings):
- EQ, +10 dB, centered around 10 kHz, with a wide Q.
- Valhalla Vintage verb, concert hall default preset, about 13% wet/dry and tail of about 3 seconds
- Volume automation - reduced by about 5 dB after the climax (after the reverb tail lingers a bit).

Future mix things to try:
- I will try lead/close mics, but I haven't downloaded them yet. Also want to try layering with Berlin first chairs
- Another few rounds of performance and expressiveness tweaks
- Automating another EQ on violins 1 to mellow out some of the E-string sound when it's supposed to be a bit under voice.

Cheers!


----------



## Bman70

Robin said:


> I read that sentence a few times now without any argument following it so I would be interested to know why you feel like the comparison in this specific context is not justified.
> 
> You might not believe it, but I used all these things including the different attacks on this demo (as I always do with OT libraries). But then again, changing the attack of the first note of a long legato line doesn't really have much influence on the performance of that entire passage. I used the expressive vibrato because the other option made the interpretation of these lines even less expressive, so just varying this for the sake of it doesn't have any benefit for the piece. The piece is obviously relying only on slow legato so changing any of the legato types to fast legato doesn't make sense either.
> 
> As I wrote in one of my initial posts, I worked with the different mic positions, but generally, mic positions change the tone but not the performance, which is the more problematic issue with the library.
> 
> So, I'm sorry, but all the things you list obviously are not applicable for this piece and none of these things drastically influence the interpretation of the consicously chosen limited approach that I took with this piece.



Unless you penciled in MIDI notes one by one, you performed it on a particular VI, then copied the MIDI to CSS and BSS. Is that right? Which VI did you initially compose and perform the MIDI recording on?

Edit: 
Oh OK just saw where you said Dorico


----------



## ka00




----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Since CSS is 35 players and BSS is 68, and since size is kind of the new thing it brings to the table that wasn't covered by Berlin Strings (28) ---

Wouldn't it make more sense to compare BSS to Spitfire Symphonic Strings (60), or Hollywood Strings (57) or LASS (62)?


----------



## Casiquire

ka00 said:


>


I'm FURIOUS.

I like the pretty white and gold colors though


----------



## ka00

Casiquire said:


> I'm FURIOUS.
> 
> I like the pretty white and gold colors though



It’s not white and gold. It’s black and blue!


----------



## jbuhler

Jerry Growl said:


> Actually the comparison queries "Can BSS do what CSS does?" But maybe a benchmark the other way "Can CSS do what you just did with BSS ?" is a more interesting approach.
> 
> To exaggerate: With a symphonic string section you don't expect Mozart's 'Eine kleine Nachtmusik' to sound as subtle as a chamber sized string section. (There is a reason why composers usually indicate the amount of required string players)
> 
> Comparison maybe has value for some, but it doesn't do it for me. Simply because it's a different tool.


What we’re lacking though is any kind of consensus about what BSS does well. So far I can say that it layers better than any other string library I have in the sense that it adds to the sound an impression of mass and heft without absorbing the other library or the other library absorbing it.

I also like the way it handles crescendos and decrescendos via CC1 so long as I can work around the bumpiness of the dynamic layer transitions (these almost completely disappear if you layer BSS with another library, so I find it very effective in that context); I like the bite on the high velocity shorts; I like the bow sound on the spiccatos for the cello and the basses (I suppose this is what OT means by the articulation not being a real spiccato); and the pattern legato is an improvement over my other libraries for leisurely back and forth accompaniment lines, though I haven’t yet tested it against the new Afflatus round robin legato. 

The lower dynamic layers can sound surprisingly intimate especially if you select the right mics. The large section sizes have not washed out the detail to the extent of SSS, say. You can also connect any of the marcatos or long articulations (including the trills and tremolos, though you drop out of the basic articulation during the legato transition) with any of the legato types and this opens up real potential, though I haven’t yet explored this space extensively. 

I’ve tried BBS on some bits of orchestral repertoire (Wagner, Mahler, Strauss) written for very large orchestra and it’s more credible on capturing the tone than other libraries I have, though I haven’t spent time crafting the performances into something especially persuasive (and have no particular reason to spend the time doing elaborate mock ups of that repertory since I’m only using these excerpts to balance the sections and explore the library’s basic responsiveness).

(edited to add paragraph breaks)


----------



## muziksculp

jbuhler said:


> What we’re lacking though is any kind of consensus about what BSS does well. So far I can say that it layers better than any other string library I have in the sense that it adds to the sound an impression of mass and heft without absorbing the other library or the other library absorbing it. I also like the way it handles crescendos and decrescendos via CC1 so long as I can work around the bumpiness of the dynamic layer transitions (these almost completely disappear if you layer BSS with another library, so I find it very effective in that context); I like the bite on the high velocity shorts; I like the bow sound on the spiccatos for the cello and the basses (I suppose this is what OT means by the articulation not being a real spiccato); and the pattern legato is an improvement over my other libraries for leisurely back and forth accompaniment lines, though I haven’t yet tested it against the new Afflatus round robin legato. The lower dynamic layers can sound surprisingly intimate especially if you select the right mics. The large section sizes have not washed out the detail to the extent of SSS, say. You can also connect any of the marcatos or long articulations (including the trills and tremolos, though you drop out of the basic articulation during the legato transition) with any of the legato types and this opens up real potential, though I haven’t yet explored this space extensively. I’ve tried BBS on some bits of orchestral repertoire (Wagner, Mahler, Strauss) written for very large orchestra and it’s more credible on capturing the tone than other libraries I have, though I haven’t spent time crafting the performances into something especially persuasive (and have no particular reason to spend the time doing elaborate mock ups of that repertory since I’m only using these excerpts to balance the sections and explore the library’s basic responsiveness).


Thanks for the interesting feedback.

Oh.. a bit OT, but a few paragraphs in your post would make it a lot easier to read


----------



## jbuhler

muziksculp said:


> Thanks for the interesting feedback.
> 
> Oh.. a bit OT, but a few paragraphs in your post would make it a lot easier to read


bad habit of academia...

ETA: I went back and added paragraph breaks for readability.


----------



## Toecutter

shawnsingh said:


> Let's have some concrete constructive discussion -
> 
> Attached is Adagio for Strings programmed with BSS. This piece is a tough challenge for high powerful violins in the climax, as well as for consistent buttery smooth melodic legato at various dynamics. Comments and feedback welcome. Please forgive any wrong notes or bad tempo.
> 
> To my ear personally, BSS meets the challenge and I think it turned out really good. Totally OK if you disagree, I'd be interested in a reality check about it so that I don't fool myself. I know there's a few places in the middle I didn't put enough CC tweaking effort, especially around that famously awkward cello note around 2:30.
> 
> Some interesting insights to share from this experience, about the "bumpy legato" and "sterile/weak" violin sound:
> 
> The "bumpy legato" issue can 95% be solved by a combination of (a) adjusting the legato volume level in Sine player for that articulation and (b) manually programming in your own CC "dips" to counteract the "bumps".
> Yes, it's completely fair to say that users shouldn't have to work around bumpy legato with additional effort. But still, I'm just saying, it's possible to overcome it. I do think there's a good chance it's something OT may be able to fix over time - they already improved it with the library update, and with any luck, it can be addressed entirely with more updates.
> I have a hypothesis why many of us feel like the violins are "weak" or "sterile" sounding, especially in the high register - it's because the dark timbre hides a lot of what's going on in the sound. Adding a significant EQ bump in high frequencies reveals a decent amount of vibrato, the subtle sound of rebows, and just makes it more obvious how expressive the violins really are. So far, the EQ I tried is a very wide Q, peaking around 10 kHz, at +10 dB. On Adagio for Strings in the climax, it really does make a huge difference and sounds beautiful.
> Despite this EQ thing, it does require volume automation or layering to increase the volume of violins a bit. To program Adagio for Strings, a few places I wanted to layer marcatos and sustains together anyway, so I used two violin 1 patches to get that extra 3-6 dB of volume at the climax.
> Wish it were possible to avoid the violin E-string when desired - in someplaces it sounds too bright on Violins 1
> I was too lazy to automate the vibrato control, I'm sure it would have made a really good difference at the ending.


Thanks for this too! It shows that BSS can be very useful to create a beautiful strings bed, but it starts to fall apart at 3:10, at least for me, and it's full on Roland strings at 4:40. Nothing to do with your mockup, I'm sure you put a lot of work in it, my dislike for BSS lies in the tone itself.

These are just first impressions, from a non-owner that watched walkthroughs, reviews and demos. I didn't put much thought into what went "wrong" (not sure if that's the best word) during the production of BSS, all I know is that my ears reject this sound. Berlin Strings on the other hand has that organic and vivid tone that I expect when I think of Orchestral Tools. Berlin Strings, Adagio and CSS are the holy trinity of strings for me, with all their quirks (looking at you Adagio) hanging notes (CSS) or whatever. The tone though... can't go wrong with any of these libraries.


----------



## nickhmusic

Virtuoso said:


> Must be the 'bonus octaves' they've slipped into random samples to thicken up the sound.



sounds like part of the Gremlins score. 


Toecutter said:


> Thanks for this! Love all my OT libraries but here CSS is in a different league. I had the impression from the live stream that BSS sounded like a glorified Roland strings pad. And it has nothing to do with the ensemble size. It's just not expressive enough even if they are marketing it as "rich, cinematic sound with large sections for creating vivid string arrangements". Other than the "large sections" I just can't hear the rich and vivid string sound in this library. Your example illustrates it perfectly, BSS is just not expressive enough to pull an emotional cue like Don't Go, where I think it should, regardless of the size of the sections.


I really like the violas in Robin's cue. Really beautiful cue by the way mate. My mother died recently and so there was a fair bit o' weeping. 

Anyway, they both have strengths and weaknesses. As a string lover, I always listen to the piece, whatever it is, as if I am listening to a real string section and if i am emotionally "pulled away" so-to-speak, it means something in there is sounding synthy or off. Whatever it is. 

This is leading me to think that blending is still the ultimate key in realism. But we're really getting close now, beautiful times to be mocking up an orchestral sound. 

Cheers all.


----------



## nickhmusic

Toecutter said:


> Thanks for this! Love all my OT libraries but here CSS is in a different league. I had the impression from the live stream that BSS sounded like a glorified Roland strings pad. And it has nothing to do with the ensemble size. It's just not expressive enough even if they are marketing it as "rich, cinematic sound with large sections for creating vivid string arrangements". Other than the "large sections" I just can't hear the rich and vivid string sound in this library. Your example illustrates it perfectly, BSS is just not expressive enough to pull an emotional cue like Don't Go, where I think it should, regardless of the size of the sections.





Robin said:


> I wrote that piece in Dorico, without a library in mind but just as I would write it for real players. I think consciously writing with the limitation of sample libraries in mind is one of the worst things you can do and in fact it is one of the worst symptoms of current media music.
> 
> I don't see that the comparison is invalid. BSS is marketed as an expressive legato library so it is absolutely fair to test this claim against the (in my opinion) top of the class library in this regard. Just because the lineup of BSS is larger than CSS doesn't make this comparison invalid. In reality the only difference between the two would be the substance of sound. It is not naturally given that the larger string section would sound less expressive than the smaller one. So if BSS is advertised as being an expressive library for legato writing, it needs to allow for a test against a library that is considered to shine at this as well. So no, there is no apple vs. oranges going on here. It is a comparison at the same level of two libraries that claim to be very good at the sort of writing that I used here.
> 
> The above also applies to these comments:


In that final chord (in the BSS version) - is that C# in there the violas or violins section playing that?


----------



## Saxer

Robin said:


> It is not naturally given that the larger string section would sound less expressive than the smaller one.


I think in sample world it is kind of given. At least that's my experience. Small sections sound bigger than life and big sections sound more pad like. Exceptions are HWS and LASS (while LASS section size is layered out of three smaller sizes). SynchronPro does a good job too. But I find smaller sections like CSS, Century, BS, L&S, SCS more convincing and easier to handle than SSS, Apassionata, HZ, Majestica, NI Symphony etc.

For me a big section voice is like a string of wool. It's a stable string that consists of little treads that are twisted but they stick out in all directions. Sampling that string is like putting a cable insulation around it. Nothing sticks out anymore and the roughness is gone. It's just a metapher I have in mind but that's how I hear it.


----------



## Hendrixon

shawnsingh said:


> Let's have some concrete constructive discussion -
> 
> Attached is Adagio for Strings programmed with BSS. This piece is a tough challenge for high powerful violins in the climax, as well as for consistent buttery smooth melodic legato at various dynamics. Comments and feedback welcome. Please forgive any wrong notes or bad tempo.
> 
> To my ear personally, BSS meets the challenge and I think it turned out really good. Totally OK if you disagree, I'd be interested in a reality check about it so that I don't fool myself. I know there's a few places in the middle I didn't put enough CC tweaking effort, especially around that famously awkward cello note around 2:30.
> 
> Some interesting insights to share from this experience, about the "bumpy legato" and "sterile/weak" violin sound:
> 
> The "bumpy legato" issue can 95% be solved by a combination of (a) adjusting the legato volume level in Sine player for that articulation and (b) manually programming in your own CC "dips" to counteract the "bumps".
> Yes, it's completely fair to say that users shouldn't have to work around bumpy legato with additional effort. But still, I'm just saying, it's possible to overcome it. I do think there's a good chance it's something OT may be able to fix over time - they already improved it with the library update, and with any luck, it can be addressed entirely with more updates.
> I have a hypothesis why many of us feel like the violins are "weak" or "sterile" sounding, especially in the high register - it's because the dark timbre hides a lot of what's going on in the sound. Adding a significant EQ bump in high frequencies reveals a decent amount of vibrato, the subtle sound of rebows, and just makes it more obvious how expressive the violins really are. So far, the EQ I tried is a very wide Q, peaking around 10 kHz, at +10 dB. On Adagio for Strings in the climax, it really does make a huge difference and sounds beautiful.
> Despite this EQ thing, it does require volume automation or layering to increase the volume of violins a bit. To program Adagio for Strings, a few places I wanted to layer marcatos and sustains together anyway, so I used two violin 1 patches to get that extra 3-6 dB of volume at the climax.
> Wish it were possible to avoid the violin E-string when desired - in someplaces it sounds too bright on Violins 1
> I was too lazy to automate the vibrato control, I'm sure it would have made a really good difference at the ending.



Thank you for doing this.
I love the basic sound OT managed to record and mix in BSS, meaning the mics, mics positions etc.
As for the recorded performance, to my ears its very clinical.
If I was scoring movies something like BSS would have been a must have, there are places you'd want exactly that playing, where say CSS or Vista or Soaring Strings would definitely be the opposite of what's needed.

Even though Hans keeps nagging me about doing the next Batman , I don't score movies.
As a musician? I'm now convinced, BSS is not for me.

Cheers.


----------



## Marsen

shawnsingh said:


> Let's have some concrete constructive discussion -
> 
> Attached is Adagio for Strings programmed with BSS. This piece is a tough challenge for high powerful violins in the climax, as well as for consistent buttery smooth melodic legato at various dynamics. Comments and feedback welcome. Please forgive any wrong notes or bad tempo.
> 
> To my ear personally, BSS meets the challenge and I think it turned out really good. Totally OK if you disagree, I'd be interested in a reality check about it so that I don't fool myself. I know there's a few places in the middle I didn't put enough CC tweaking effort, especially around that famously awkward cello note around 2:30.


First, thanks for the effort @shawnsingh to show us, BSS does shine. Nice example.

I´m not biased towards any direction.
I watched this controversial discussion for a while.

Does someone seriously think, a director will tell you/us "I like your music, but this bumpy legato transition at 2:30 is turning me off, I´m sorry, you don´t get the job" ?
Or is it more like a nerdy " I´m the Marvel Legato-Master Wisdom Key-Holder" discussion?

Please, I´m just thinking of what the heck we´re talking about.
Bad playability, and a lot of programming work to just getting a library to work? Then, I´m totally in. Forget what I wrote,- I hate the library!
Different tastes, then I´m totally out.

I´m not interested, in blaming any single one in this thread, and it´s not intended, as I do have respect for the community.
But I just don´t get it.
Some are happy, others are not with BSS . There are odd things, which for sure has to be adressed, no problem with that, but that´s it.
Adress it to the developer, that´s fine.
If you don´t like it, you don´t buy it. No? And I know, we have to be critical on releases, so we can have a lively discussion about that, and that´s also totally fine.

But if someone bought BSS, makes great music with it, what is the point not to applause him?
I, for myself, am very unsure of purchasing this library. I´m thinking, I could maybe stack BS with other libraries, I already have, to achieve this kind of sound.
And I recognized the lack of violins expression. On the other hand vibrato and even portamento are sometimes overrated/overused, but yes- nice to have.
But also, like the example of shawnsingh shows, BSS does have a sound no other library I actually know, can reproduce.

Anyway, if anybody feels to be offended of what I had to say , this wasn´t my intension.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

Doing a playthrough of BSS if anyone wants to join


----------



## shawnsingh

Hendrixon said:


> As for the recorded performance, to my ears its very clinical.



Thanks everyone for the discussion.

I finally downloaded leader mics, and I instantly fell in love with it - it really adds more intimacy and detail to the sound. I will take a few days to improve the MIDI programming of my Adagio for Strings mockup and add leader mics, and then share that version here again. 

I encourage anyone who has disliked the tone/expressiveness of BSS so far, to please stay open minded and listen to the leader mic version when I share it - but at the same time, I completely respect if it still doesn't convince people! There's room enough for differing preferences/needs.

Also, let's not forget the whole universe of music beyond emotive legato. I really like the shorts and marcatos from BSS, too. Trills can be used to make realistic sounding upward runs (not sure about downwards) as long as your runs only have half-steps and whole-steps - I'm sure the trill trick applies to many other libraries too, including CSS.

For me personally the conclusion is, I'm really glad I've bought it. I was starting to lean more towards chamber sized strings, but this library makes me realize that there is unique depth and roundness of sound that only a large string ensemble can provide, and it can be very magical.


----------



## ned3000

Damn it shawnsingh! Until now the one upside for me of reading through all this tedious bickering is that I didn't feel the need to buy BSS. Now I'm not so sure. The Barber mockup sounds really good.

Was that done with the update/patch applied?

I think the conclusion I'm coming to now is that BSS can be made to sound good, but it requires some pretty specific tweaking. The fact that I found all the official demos lacking tells me that, even in the hands of skilled mockup artists, it's not straightforward to get that sound. On the other hand, there have been a couple of things posted where it did sound pretty good.


----------



## muziksculp

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Doing a playthrough of BSS if anyone wants to join




Hi @SimonCharlesHanna ,

Thanks for the video showing Berlin Symphonic Strings. You did a very good job. 

I'm sure OT will keep improving this wonderful sounding strings library via updates. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## ProfoundSilence

shawnsingh said:


> Thanks everyone for the discussion.
> 
> I finally downloaded leader mics, and I instantly fell in love with it - it really adds more intimacy and detail to the sound. I will take a few days to improve the MIDI programming of my Adagio for Strings mockup and add leader mics, and then share that version here again.
> 
> I encourage anyone who has disliked the tone/expressiveness of BSS so far, to please stay open minded and listen to the leader mic version when I share it - but at the same time, I completely respect if it still doesn't convince people! There's room enough for differing preferences/needs.
> 
> Also, let's not forget the whole universe of music beyond emotive legato. I really like the shorts and marcatos from BSS, too. Trills can be used to make realistic sounding upward runs (not sure about downwards) as long as your runs only have half-steps and whole-steps - I'm sure the trill trick applies to many other libraries too, including CSS.
> 
> For me personally the conclusion is, I'm really glad I've bought it. I was starting to lean more towards chamber sized strings, but this library makes me realize that there is unique depth and roundness of sound that only a large string ensemble can provide, and it can be very magical.


My suggestion would be to back off the dynamics a little bit and then doctor the swells with a little cc7 plus/minus here and there. When I heard your mockup - it simply felt like real players wouldn't dig in that hard with the bow on that piece.


----------



## molemac

Not wanting to belittle the fantastic version here but there was a thread that did shootouts of Barber's Adagio https://vi-control.net/community/threads/barbers-adagio-for-strings-vi-versions.50759/


By far the best was Lass . demo done in 2010. I dont think BSS can compete ( in isolation it sounds ok but when you compare it, it then sounds surprisingly samply especially in the high strings as a lot of people have said) It maybe the wizardry of the programming and mixing but the Lass version seems much warmer and real .
Then gain it could be just personal taste, I have the same problem with BS which I have but cant ever seem to make work for me. Despite the better legato of CSS,I prefer the playability of Dimension strings but couldnt get that to match this version (apart from the smaller sound obviously ) so..

Conclusion I will wait for MSS. (Although hearing the platoon version reminds me there is not much point in pretending that sampled strings will ever get close to the real thing, which is also not a bad thing )


----------



## Robin

nickhmusic said:


> In that final chord (in the BSS version) - is that C# in there the violas or violins section playing that?


Thanks for the kind words and sorry to hear about your loss. The highest Db in the last chord is 1st Violins.


----------



## shawnsingh

ProfoundSilence said:


> My suggestion would be to back off the dynamics a little bit and then doctor the swells with a little cc7 plus/minus here and there. When I heard your mockup - it simply felt like real players wouldn't dig in that hard with the bow on that piece.


Great suggestion, will try.



molemac said:


> Not wanting to belittle the fantastic version here but there was a thread that did shootouts of Barber's Adagio https://vi-control.net/community/threads/barbers-adagio-for-strings-vi-versions.50759/
> 
> 
> By far the best was Lass . demo done in 2010. I dont think BSS can compete ( in isolation it sounds ok but when you compare it, it then sounds surprisingly samply especially in the high strings as a lot of people have said) It maybe the wizardry of the programming and mixing but the Lass version seems much warmer and real .
> Then gain it could be just personal taste, I have the same problem with BS which I have but cant ever seem to make work for me. Despite the better legato of CSS,I prefer the playability of Dimension strings but couldnt get that to match this version (apart from the smaller sound obviously ) so..
> 
> Conclusion I will wait for MSS. (Although hearing the platoon version reminds me there is not much point in pretending that sampled strings will ever get close to the real thing, which is also not a bad thing )



My brain is already starting to glaze over from hearing this piece endlessly while programming it... I did at least skim through the LASS version, indeed sounds great. And MSS does look like it could be an endgame for many people. Exciting times!


----------



## shawnsingh

ned3000 said:


> Damn it shawnsingh! Until now the one upside for me of reading through all this tedious bickering is that I didn't feel the need to buy BSS. Now I'm not so sure. The Barber mockup sounds really good.
> 
> Was that done with the update/patch applied?
> 
> I think the conclusion I'm coming to now is that BSS can be made to sound good, but it requires some pretty specific tweaking. The fact that I found all the official demos lacking tells me that, even in the hands of skilled mockup artists, it's not straightforward to get that sound. On the other hand, there have been a couple of things posted where it did sound pretty good.



It was done with the update, but beware I still had to manually tweak CC dynamics to smoothen the legato bumps. The bumps seem less with the update but still there sometimes.


----------



## JTB

MSS looks like it will inject some healthy and timely competition into to the arena.


----------



## Mikay

Marsen said:


> First, thanks for the effort @shawnsingh to show us, BSS does shine. Nice example.
> 
> I´m not biased towards any direction.
> I watched this controversial discussion for a while.
> 
> Does someone seriously think, a director will tell you/us "I like your music, but this bumpy legato transition at 2:30 is turning me off, I´m sorry, you don´t get the job" ?
> [..]
> 
> Please, I´m just thinking of what the heck we´re talking about.


That's exactly the point. The legato transition won't affect the director's decision, but then s/he won't even notice the difference between BSS and similar libraries like CSS. So why should I even buy it? 

I guess there are many people here who would like to throw their money at OT for a cool new library. They were hyped when they saw the news, then they heard the sound and then they saw the price, and then they were dissapointed.

I can hear the difference between BS and BSS, but is it really a 360€ crossgrade difference?

And if I understand it correctly, some guys at OT must now fix issues right when everyone else is having their christmas holidays. Not cool. They could have waited a few weeks like Audiobro or East West to deliver a polished product.


----------



## dzilizzi

Mikay said:


> That's exactly the point. The legato transition won't affect the director's decision, but then s/he won't even notice the difference between BSS and similar libraries like CSS. So why should I even buy it?
> 
> I guess there are many people here who would like to throw their money at OT for a cool new library. They were hyped when they saw the news, then they heard the sound and then they saw the price, and then they were dissapointed.
> 
> I can hear the difference between BS and BSS, but is it really a 360€ crossgrade difference?
> 
> And if I understand it correctly, some guys at OT must now fix issues right when everyone else is having their christmas holidays. Not cool. They could have waited a few weeks like Audiobro or East West to deliver a polished product.


Ah, but you are assuming all of us have and like CSS. I think if you are happy with CSS, you should stick to it, be happy, and stop following the thread. There is nothing for you here. 

I actually am liking how this sounds. I appreciate the discussion about working around the issues found until hopefully OT corrects them. And whether I can live with the problems if OT doesn't correct them. Do I need it? No. But will I get it? Probably.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Mikay said:


> but is it really a 360€ crossgrade difference?


its 299 for me


----------



## Mikay

ProfoundSilence said:


> its 299 for me


299 € + VAT


----------



## Robin

Robin said:


> I played around with it a bit today as I wanted to see how well it behaves in a type of piece that I would call the "butter zone" for such a library:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I wanted to see how it holds up against my current go to library for such things (CSS), so here's the comparison:
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,



I gave it another go with the recent update. Slight change in Mic balance also but other than that deliberately no changes compared to the original above:


----------



## Kevinside

damm OT why no portamento...

The tone of BSS is so much better than CSS, but the legato of CSS includes inperferctions and these are missing in the BSS Example...


----------



## ProfoundSilence

TBH the entire issue is that it sounds 100% penciled in, which can work - but it's absolutely nothing like having it underneath your fingers - so unless you're familiar with how the library wants it's modwheel data, it'll always sound like you penciled the whole thing in.

If that's your primary method of making music, would be worth it to use libraries that behave well for that - but I think that's where the jarringly early and abrupt transitions are coming from. It's quite common to ease up on modwheel during transitions at the beginning and end of a phrase - it's something that is also idiomatic string writing to have a natural "hairpin".

you can EASILY hear the difference because of the natural "pumping" on the CSS version - where each note is swelling in and out, while none of that seems to be programmed into the BSS version(something a human would naturally play in after having the library under their fingers in a few minutes)

CSS might do this by having a pre-determined ASDR on a new note in a way that makes it easy to pencil in the notes without needing to perform it in, hence what seems like a glaring difference in feel - but all in all - this is the single thing thats missing entirely from your excerpt which is common practice for almost anyone on this forum that doesn't compose with a mouse.



This is no different than people try to program libraries like sample modelling like typical sample based libraries... writing music in like that for anything like adventure brass, infinite brass, ect - would make anything sound lifeless and blocky.

The first time he plays that leap it sounds stiff and bad - and then when he plays it the second time with modwheel motion, it's night and day.


----------



## Marsen

dzilizzi said:


> Ah, but you are assuming all of us have and like CSS. I think if you are happy with CSS, you should stick to it, be happy, and stop following the thread. There is nothing for you here.
> 
> I actually am liking how this sounds. I appreciate the discussion about working around the issues found until hopefully OT corrects them. And whether I can live with the problems if OT doesn't correct them. Do I need it? No. But will I get it? Probably.


True, I really love the sound of OT.


----------



## Mikay

dzilizzi said:


> I think if you are happy with CSS, you should stick to it, be happy, and stop following the thread. There is nothing for you here.


You are completely right! But the point was to explain where the frustrated people come from. They want new flavors and desperately want a reason to buy new stuff! 

I guess if the introductory crossgrade price was 199€+VAT, most people in this thread would have bought it without a thought and everyone would be happy. Now they are frustrated because they cannot find enough reasons to throw their money at OT


----------



## nickhmusic

I'd be grateful if anyone who has purchased could comment on the Violas in this library, I'm hoping to fill a gap in my string library - and it's either these (as single instruments) or CSS. 

Many muchos graciases!


----------



## jbuhler

Mikay said:


> I can hear the difference between BS and BSS, but is it really a 360€ crossgrade difference?


I mean, it depends on how important that difference is to you and the music you want to make. I can say BSS does not replicate any of my other string libraries. It does things BS and the Arks can’t do, so it extends OT’s line. It also does things that SSS and HZS can’t do, so it extends my large string section capabilities. But I don’t use a large string section all that often, so it is a legitimate question to ask whether the difference it offers is worth the price. But that is very much a personal decision and the buy point will of course be different for different people and the distribution of those buy points will follow a fairly elastic demand curve... Given OT’s general pricing structure, i was pleasantly surprised: it was 100€ or so lower than I would have expected.

In any case, this reminds me a bit of the conversations about sul tasto and flautando and how many versions of that articulation does anyone really need. And the answer is of course all of them. The real answer is that it depends greatly on the kind of music you write and how important the distinctions that all those flautandos offer are to allowing your music to express itself. The availability of choice opens an expressive domain, and the same goes for these libraries of large string sections, each of which has a take on that space, and in expanding it the potential of that expressive domain becomes better defined and more accessible... And, yes, that expansion comes at a price because that’s the kind of world we live in.


----------



## ka00

nickhmusic said:


> I'd be grateful if anyone who has purchased could comment on the Violas in this library, I'm hoping to fill a gap in my string library - and it's either these (as single instruments) or CSS.
> 
> Many muchos graciases!



I have not purchased, but in this video, Simon demos the violas (as well as the whole library) and says they are probably the most expressive instrument in BSS.


----------



## Robin

ProfoundSilence said:


> TBH the entire issue is that it sounds 100% penciled in, which can work - but it's absolutely nothing like having it underneath your fingers - so unless you're familiar with how the library wants it's modwheel data, it'll always sound like you penciled the whole thing in.
> 
> If that's your primary method of making music, would be worth it to use libraries that behave well for that - but I think that's where the jarringly early and abrupt transitions are coming from. It's quite common to ease up on modwheel during transitions at the beginning and end of a phrase - it's something that is also idiomatic string writing to have a natural "hairpin".
> 
> you can EASILY hear the difference because of the natural "pumping" on the CSS version - where each note is swelling in and out, while none of that seems to be programmed into the BSS version(something a human would naturally play in after having the library under their fingers in a few minutes)
> 
> CSS might do this by having a pre-determined ASDR on a new note in a way that makes it easy to pencil in the notes without needing to perform it in, hence what seems like a glaring difference in feel - but all in all - this is the single thing thats missing entirely from your excerpt which is common practice for almost anyone on this forum that doesn't compose with a mouse.
> 
> 
> 
> This is no different than people try to program libraries like sample modelling like typical sample based libraries... writing music in like that for anything like adventure brass, infinite brass, ect - would make anything sound lifeless and blocky.
> 
> The first time he plays that leap it sounds stiff and bad - and then when he plays it the second time with modwheel motion, it's night and day.



I'm sorry but I disagree here. Effectively you're saying that I should counteract the bumpy transitions through modwheel which is exactly what he's doing in the video. I consciously didn't do that as I also don't need to do it with CSS and ideally it should not be the responsibility of the user to compensate for programming issues. I invested about the same amount of time into both demos and of course I could compensate for the bumpyness but that would take considerably more time which again I shouldn't be spending in an ideal world.

As far as I know there is no ADSR going on under the hood in CSS but it simply is that more care has been put into the transitions.


----------



## nickhmusic

Robin said:


> I gave it another go with the recent update. Slight change in Mic balance also but other than that deliberately no changes compared to the original above:



I have to say for pure emotional depth in those transitions, I'm preferring CSS. Listen to 0:20 of the updated version, and then listen to 0:20 of the CSS version. To me, those violins sound more expressive, and in turn, closer to a live performance.


----------



## nickhmusic

ka00 said:


> I have not purchased, but in this video, Simon demos the violas (as well as the whole library) and says they are probably the most expressive instrument in BSS.



that's fantastic man, thanks - exactly what i need - i'm on it!


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Robin said:


> I'm sorry but I disagree here. Effectively you're saying that I should counteract the bumpy transitions through modwheel which is exactly what he's doing in the video. I consciously didn't do that as I also don't need to do it with CSS and ideally it should not be the responsibility of the user to compensate for programming issues. I invested about the same amount of time into both demos and of course I could compensate for the bumpyness but that would take considerably more time which again I shouldn't be spending in an ideal world.
> 
> As far as I know there is no ADSR going on under the hood in CSS but it simply is that more care has been put into the transitions.



the conversation between us is over. But thanks for admitting that you're unwilling to treat each library differently - and expect all libraries to comform to the way you program, and if they don't - then it's the libraries fault. 

Robin(holding hammer) : These nails(CSS) go right in!
Robin(still holding hammer): These screws(BSS) go in crooked, I have to hammer them 10 times as much, and I can't pull them out. 
Other people: Why don't you try a power drill instead of a hammer for those screws?
Robin(holding hammer) : But I hammer these nails just fine, why should I have to treat screws differently?!?!

you don't know what's going on under the hood of CSS, it's a locked library. However, 2 seconds of careful listening to transitions reveal that there is an obvious dip during transitions(and a swell at the head of the note). Either way you look at it, it's doing exactly what most people perform in naturally - which was the point that I made. It's not a matter of compensating, it's a matter of having control - and sometimes you want the transition exaggerated, or tip toe'd around. 

This is the way every single other flagship string library is played for best results - and the fact that CSS is programmed in a way that expects modwheel data to stay the same during transitions doesn't mean you should treat other string libraries that way - and while you did take the time to make a demo, you've admitted to doing exactly what some of us have tried to allude to: program it for CSS and if it doesn't work right for BSS then it's not your problem. 

Enjoy your 300$+ virtual paper weight, but it's not going to do you any favors having that cringey "my way or the highway attitude" considering most libraries from different develops demand to be programmed in their own ways to get good results.


----------



## Fitz

People always forget this: a good demo doesn’t require some ridiculously new, shiny sample library. Look at what @Rctec did in the 90s with samples from ‘94. Sure, we can go chuck in some very mediocre sounding demo with either Berlin or CSS, but what about taking the time to make the demos sound as good as possible... and maybe not right out of the box.
I bought BSS at first listen. Why? Because the room it’s recorded in, the philosophy of OT recording samples and their commitment to making a good instrument and providing updates. I could have gone and bought the latest shiny thing from Spitfire (whom I love as well), but any working composer will tell you you don’t need 500 string libraries to make a good demo. In fact, give me the older stuff to see what I can do with it and help me improve my programming skills. The amount of snark in here really gets to me. Sure maybe the expressiveness of the violins doesn’t beat the subjective tone of CSS, but there’s so much more to a string library than legato.


----------



## Robin

ProfoundSilence said:


> the conversation between us is over.


agreed.


----------



## nickhmusic

Fitz said:


> In fact, give me the older stuff to see what I can do with it and help me improve my programming skills. The amount of snark in here really gets to me.


Well said, and one of the reasons I visit rarely, despite loving this place. There's really nothing like it anywhere else. 

Having said that, i'm in the position of upgrading - or improving my string library, as LASS (2.5) has been my go-to for many years. 

I mocked up a Christian Henson piece the other night and used what I had, LASS, SCS, VSL. After mountains of reverb, routing, EQ and placement - it got me 90% of the way there, but there was too much tweaking and sample replacing for some (relatively) simple phrases.

I am at a dead-end because there are certain things LASS does that are baked into the samples - tuning issues, transition bumps etc. that require far too much programming, finessing and massaging to get right. Don't get me wrong, I still adore LASS, (those violins really sing when you get it right) but BSS and CSS are looking like great new additions and in some cases...replacements to what I have.


----------



## lucor

Poor Robin, provides a great example to help other people out and gets vilified for it. Sometimes you really see why people like TJ Bergersen call VI-C a toxic place.



Robin said:


> I gave it another go with the recent update. Slight change in Mic balance also but other than that deliberately no changes compared to the original above:




I'm liking the updated demo quite a bit more. That and @SimonCharlesHanna walkthrough will probably push me over the edge before the intro price expires, just waiting a bit longer in hopes that Modern Scoring Strings will get some demos out until then.


----------



## ism

Robin said:


> As far as I know there is no ADSR going on under the hood in CSS but it simply is that more care has been put into the transitions.



There absolutely are, in the sense that there is a particular musicality baked into CSS at every level. In the performance, the flow of the progressive vibrato, in the finely subtle textures of the performance at certain dynamic before the progressive vibrato, in performance of the legato ... and probably in a dozen other ways that I haven't even noticed.

It's a very, very lovely musicality, and a triumph of plonkability engineering meets artistic vision.


But it's a very, very specific musicality. And a very mainstream, hollywood media aesthetic. This doesn't make it any less beautiful.


But your BSS demo simply assumes that BSS has the same musicality baked into it's phrasing. And it sounds *terrible*. Seriously it's the single worst BSS demo I've heard. Even the above Yoda's theme mock up, which is far from perfect, and probably just BS midid data copied and pasted, at least has moments when the soaring musicality of BSS shines through, pointing to the gorgeous musicality underlying

And it's not a conicidence that your CSS demo is one of the very best I've heard with CSS. Truly beautiful. And deeply, musically, in that you really lean in to musicality deeply baked into the same performance that CSS captures. Gorgeous stuff.

But that said, thank God that there are other libraries that allow an artistic vision of a musicality that doesn't conform to the CSS aesthetic. Because it's become so mainstream studio hollywood, and so dominant (though for good reason, it's genuinely a deeply beautiful aesthetic) that it sometimes start to feel suffocatingly homogenous.

So when I bought SStS over CSS, I'm not an idiot, and it was certainly not because anyone would ever seriously argue that SStS legatos are remotely in the same league as CSS. But because while SStS focuses on open up a range of sonorities and expressive spaces - which I personally find beautiful and expressive via-a-vis the emotional sense I'm trying to capture at the moment - CSS doubles down on capturing a *single*, homogenous, hollywood, mainstream, dominant aesthetic. Which happens to not be a terribly resonant with any specific emotions I'm trying to capture at the moment.

Again, there is no critique of CSS implied here at all. It's a technical and artistic triumph. But it's a technical and artistic triumph of capturing a *single* aesthetic.

And similarly, nothing but love for this kind of CSS pieces that Robin's exemplify (along with, for instance, Noam' masterful mockups of Elgar and Mahler with CSS), and for everyone in the community who lives and breathes this aesthetic. 10 years ago, had I had CSS, I might well have been one of yeas .

Seriously, I love hearing CSS demos. But I am *never* surprised by them. I always, always, always know the aesthetic to expect. Because it's so familiar and so mainstream, and it's baked into the samples from the start.



But what we're seeing here is a fetishizing of this single aesthetic as the One String Library to Rule Them All - to the point that it's shutting down the ability to critical discuss this *new* musicality that BSS (and other libraries on other threads that suffer the same CSS fundamentalism).



Again, nothing but love for CSS. It's a completely valid lifestyle choice that I *totally* respect.


It just isn't my particular choice. And I'd much rather engage with critical discussion around looking for new musicalities emerging - even messily - in new libraries.


What's clear is that BSS isn't an instant gratification library a la CSS. In the same way that Spitfire Solo Strings, or Light and Sound Chamber strings, for instance, contain myriad potentialities of musicalities to be found, but require - and repay - some thoughtful, musical, engagement at the level of performance and phrasing and nuance.


The above Yoda's Theme mock up, for instance, - even with bad midi data - it (perhaps accidentally) manages to hits a couple of gorgeous sweet spot that give hints of a new musicality to be explored. While the BSS version of the most gorgeously musical CSS piece seems to be almost pathologically adverse to anything BSS does well. Which makes the important and valid point "don't buy BSS when what you really what is CSS".

Against this, consider David's recent demo of Sunset Strings. Which masterfully reveals fabulous new musicalities in the library that I hadn't even expected were there (though I'm hardly surprised it's a library that just exudes potentialities of musicality, even when it's not always obvious what all they may be.


Or consider how I spent last night playing with the OT Special Bows Sul Tasto. And it's in sitting down and playing and experimenting and finding nuances to be brough out in performance, as well as non-sweet spots to be avoided, that I'm finding wonderful new musicalities. It remains to work out how to write with these musicalities. I won't share what I wrote - it's even worse that Robin's terrible BSS demo, because finding musicality is a tricky thing, full of trial and error. Any newness entering the world requires the space for such a process of emergence.


But there's music and musicality here that I could just never, in a million years, have found working in Dorico or Staffpad or Notion.


And at it's best, vi-c creates a hugely valuable space for exploring of musicalities to be found in sample libraries. This sometimes includes terrible first attempts. Not least some of mine - see for instance my awful first noodle with OT special bows where, in retrospect, I was tying to perform phrases as if it were SStS (never do this). 

At it's worst these explorations are shut down by people imposing their own aesthetic preferences, shutting down the halting, messy, iterative, error prone - but really fun if you like that sort of thing - process of working towards new musicalities.

So that Robin's BSS demo sounds terrible isn't really a criticism either. I just think that "CSS shows that BSS is crap" is an absurd interpretation for anyone who is actually interested in the actual musicality of BSS. 

Because in the sense that when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail, when you can only judge a library through the aesthetic and technical lens of CSS, pounding away with anything else is never going to feel as satisfying as CSS.


----------



## ism

Robin said:


> I gave it another go with the recent update. Slight change in Mic balance also but other than that deliberately no changes compared to the original above:



That is definitely improving. CSS still sounds waaay better.


----------



## nickhmusic

ism said:


> Because in the sense that when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail, when you can only judge a library through the aesthetic and technical lens of CSS, pounding away with anything else is never going to feel as satisfying as CSS.


True, but I wouldn't judge or devalue anyone else's opinion if they told me they preferred the BSS demo. Not saying you did. But what's the issue with CSS sounding clearly better here? I'd hope that if people really considered BSS they would research it carefully - as I am, so they don't spend ££££s on libraries (as I have done) that didn't deliver the results they were hoping. Or just sat gathering dust on their hard drives. 

Oh, and I don't think the BSS demo is terrible. It just lacks - for that piece - depth of emotion. Hooked on Classics doing The Beatles .vs. the actual Beatles and George Martin. 

Sort of.


----------



## Bman70

Robin said:


> I'm sorry but I disagree here. Effectively you're saying that I should counteract the bumpy transitions through modwheel which is exactly what he's doing in the video. I consciously didn't do that as I also don't need to do it with CSS and ideally it should not be the responsibility of the user to compensate for programming issues. I invested about the same amount of time into both demos and of course I could compensate for the bumpyness but that would take considerably more time which again I shouldn't be spending in an ideal world.
> 
> As far as I know there is no ADSR going on under the hood in CSS but it simply is that more care has been put into the transitions.



OK this seems to show an active bias now. VIs all have their own ways they need to be handled to make them shine. HWO is notorious for sounding like crap on first purchase, but after learning to nuance and cajole its quirks, it's a perennial gem. 

"It should not be the responsibility of the user to compensate for programming issues." Your definition of programming issues seems to be "if it behaves differently from CSS." 

Penciling in from a notation program tends to create some of the worst MIDI and stiffest performances. After all, a human player _interprets _musical notation, adding far more than what's on the page; we are the player with a VI, and the notation must be interpreted as well, using our skill and understanding of the instrument to make it sing.


----------



## Kevinside

So conclusion... BSS is shit and CSS is glory...

noy way


----------



## muziksculp

The way you use Virtual Instruments have a huge impact on how they sound, that means controllers, velocity curves, ..etc. used when performing it, because they don't all respond the same way to velocity, and CC's, plus other factors, each has it's own characteristic response, to the midi-stimuli you use to play it, and make it behave in an optimal/musical manner. 

It's not one size fits all, if a certain forumla/techique works great with one VI, it doesn't mean it will work great with another VI, and vice-versa.


----------



## ism

nickhmusic said:


> True, but I wouldn't judge or devalue anyone else's opinion if they told me they preferred the BSS demo. Not saying you did. But what's the issue with CSS sounding clearly better here? I'd hope that if people really considered BSS they would research it carefully - as I am, so they don't spend ££££s on libraries (as I have done) that didn't deliver the results they were hoping. Or just sat gathering dust on their hard drives.
> 
> Oh, and I don't think the BSS demo is terrible. It just lacks - for that piece - depth of emotion. Hooked on Classics doing The Beatles .vs. the actual Beatles and George Martin.
> 
> Sort of.



It's not about judging anyone's opinion. But in the CSS demo, I can *feel* the emotion in the performance. In the BSS demo, it's at best kind of flat. Whereas there are moments in other BSS demos that really lean in to writting to the emotion inherent in the aesthetic vision of BSS where you can feel the emotion embodied by BSS, it's just not there in the "CSS port". Which is instructive, but hardly an indictment of BSS.

There's also the question of the location of musicality. The kind of music that's best for writing on paper is the kind to imbues the musicality in the harmonies and melodies, and sticks to idiomatic conventions that the performers will know (or is baked into the library).

For works where a composers is innovating at the level of the sonority, then the composer probably will need to work with the musicians to ensure that they don't use conventional idiomatic playing where a new idiom of performance and nuance is called for.

I was speaking to a composer recently who never uses samples, and said she prefers working for chamber ensembles because often this entails the opportunity to workshop with the musicians while composing the piece. Wheres for a symphony, this is generally too expensive, so you have less opportunity to write to the nuance of individual musicians, rooms etc.

Now there's nothing wrong with writing either way. But I just think that writing in Dorico within a particular romantic hollywood idiom, knowing that you're going to render CSS lets you focus on one particular dimension of musicality. Wheres writing while developing performance that draw upon the nuances of the soft and hard attacks, the nuances of the progressive vibrato, the soft and hard releases, and the points of the transition in dynamic layers with (in this example) OT special Bows is more like composing via workshopping with an ensemble that writing a commissioned piece to be sight read by an orchestra with only conventional notation.


And there reason I'm reading a BSS thread in the first place, is that, while it will probably take some time for it to fully come into focus, there's clearly a new and exciting musicality ( musicalities?) captured inherently by BSS that I just don't hear anywhere else. 


And there's bound to be some bumpiness in the (very interesting, if you like that sort of think) working out how to fully nurture the process of drawing out these musicalities.


So I'm in the "workshop with musicians and lean in to musicality" school at the moment. I have nothing against the "write in Dorico and expect musicians to know what I want" school of thought, and even aspire to do more of this myself in future.


But it's unhelpful to dismiss a new library that needs a workshopping approach with "...well the CSS musicians knew how to play this". 

And don't forget, CSS is not a first generation library in capturing this aesthetic. It's entirely build on the experience and success and failure and multiple generations of sample libraries and all of their successes and failures in capturing very similar aesthetics.


Anyway, hoping to hear lots more fun experiments with BSS.

(But I know all I need to know about how much it *doesn't* sound like CSS at this point, so not even going to listen to more CSS demos, however beautiful I know they're likely to be (within the same beautiful aesthetic of every other CSS demo, ever)).


----------



## Robin

Sorry guys, there are words being put in my mouth here that I never said.

As I even said before, I treated both demos differently in regards of note delay and cc programming to accomodate for the different libraries and how they behave and invested about the same amount of time for both but I consciously did not compensate for bumpy legatos.

It is absolutely ridiculous to claim that importing midi as opposed to recording something live is ultimately the inferior mockup technique. Depending on how you treat the data, it might just be the other way around. There are way too many loose factors to make that claim.

What's that thing with constantly trying to find other reasons for the shortcomings of BSS in that thread that deflect from the responsibility of the developer's quality control?

I agree with all that you're saying, @Bman70 and of course it is essential to accomodate for strenghts and weaknesses of the libraries in the midi programming but considering your HWO example, the challenge with it is mainly to get the tone/ambience and connection between different articulations or even using the appropriate articulations out of the dozens of possibilities right. This is the reason why I chose this extremely limited test field of isolating and comparing the slow legato playing of both libraries. 

I will not accept that a top tier library like BSS should come with bumpy legatos that you need to work against with the midi programming. The reasoning that you might want a transition to be bumpy and therefore the bumps might be by design is incredibly ridiculous. None of the bumps sound in any way natural or as if in any way they could have been intended. From a premium (price) developer like OT with a lot of experience in sampling instruments, it is not too much to ask for proper legato transitions, especially when they are advertised as one of the strong sides of the library. And this is not an intended "different behaviour from CSS" to give it a different character or a minor "quirk". After all, addressing the transitions through an update just a few days after release indicates that they were not happy with it either. 

There are arguments thrown around here that simply do not apply for that isolated test run I did. Micromanaging the CC1 curve to get the transitions right in BSS will probably create a better result than what I got out of it but then again, why should it be necessary to put that task on the user if it is possible to get it right from the beginning which is even evident in the very same library in the lower strings?

This whole discussion is really becoming absurd. I got to the state of the CSS demo in about 20 minutes of programming, not because CSS is an instant pleaser or easy to program (see constant discussions about the legato delays) but because it obviously went through rigorous cycles of quality control and tweaking that reduce the quirks it has to a minimum and makes it possible to spend your time programming it to adjusting the musical interpretation. The behaviour that BSS shows does not contribute to a specific character of the library but you simply need to spend time fixing things that could have been addressed from the developer side. This is NOT what gives a library character, but it is what makes working with a library annoying when you are on a deadline.


Bman70 said:


> "It should not be the responsibility of the user to compensate for programming issues." Your definition of programming issues seems to be "if it behaves differently from CSS."


No, my definition of programming issues is "if it behaves like no musician would ever play that".

I said it before, BSS will find a spot in my template as there are some things in there that I really like but if they just had invested more time to getting it to a really competetive state or even pushing the existing boundaries further, it would have just been so much more useful.

It is baffling to see how this thread is developing into accepting obvious shortcomings of a product that everybody paid a premium price for as characteristic traits of this product. It is essential to hold developers accountable for suboptimal releases to push the boundaries of this whole industry. There are developers who keep releasing underwhelming libraries with incredible quality control issues at a dizzying frequency but are still considered top of the game because they know how to ride the hype train and enough people keep buying their releases over and over again.


----------



## muziksculp

@Robin,

I would suggest you email Orchestral Tools informing them of what you feel needs improved in the library, i.e. the legatos, and anything else, they are a very professional team that will listen to your requests, and try to improve their product. 

Actually, I don't find the Legatos in BSS bumpy, so I'm not sure what bumpy means anymore. I don't hear bumpiness when I'm using the Legatos, maybe I need an ear checkup to make sure I'm not missing those bumpy legatos being discussed here. 

I also would like to repeat that each string library needs some time to practice using it, and get to know it really well, it is not a plug-n-play scenario, I think that is a general rule, not something that is unique to BSS. 

BSS is a young Strings Library, I'm sure it will get updated, with further features/improvements as it matures, now that OT is not using Kontakt, they have full control over their libraries performance, features, and quality. They won't neglect it if there is an issue, or they are getting user request to improve specific issues, or playability, ..etc. 

Thanks for contributing to this topic, lets focus on the positive side of things, this library sounds wonderful, and will only be getting better, and better in the days ahead. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## Robin

muziksculp said:


> I would suggest you email Orchestral Tools informing them of what you feel needs improved in the library, i.e. the legatos, and anything else, they are a very professional team that will listen to your requests, and try to improve their product.
> 
> Actually, I don't find the Legatos in BSS bumpy, so I'm not sure what bumpy means anymore. I don't hear bumpiness when I'm using the Legatos, maybe I need an ear checkup to make sure I'm not missing those bumpy legatos being discussed here.
> 
> I also would like to repeat that each string library needs some time to practice using it, and get to know it really well, it is not a plug-n-play scenario, I think that is a general rule, not something that is unique to BSS.
> 
> BSS is a young Strings Library, I'm sure it will get updated, with further features/improvements as it matures, now that OT is not using Kontakt, they have full control over their libraries performance, features, and quality. They won't neglect it if there is an issue, or they are getting user request to improve specific issues, or playability, ..etc.
> 
> Thanks for contributing to this topic, lets focus on the positive side of things, this library sounds wonderful, and will only be getting better, and better in the days ahead.
> 
> Cheers,
> Muziksculp


I appreciate your words. I'm sure OT is keeping a close eye on these threads here anyway.

I understand your point, but as I said, if everybody focuses on the good things, developers will not feel like they need to do better. This is not in the interest of the users. And additionally, while I'm sure there will be updates to the library, I similarly do not feel like I need to accept being the beta tester for a library. None of the issues the library has are so obscure that they only appear in very rare cases but they are obvious at every corner. These are things that need to be fixed before a release and not after. I simply don't have the time in my daily work to deal with myriads of quirks. If a library comes with too many quirks, I simply need to replace it with something else, even if I like the sound of the library, but usability is a huge factor when your daily work depends on it.


----------



## Kevinside

Man, you only want,that BSS sound exactly like CSS...


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

I understand the direction the criticism of Robin's piece is coming from but like.... it's not a difficult or abstract a piece to play, right? *Any *string library worth its salt should eat it up for breakfast. I am not sure there's much more you could do within the dynamics of the legato to make it shine without starting to change the composition (and having to change a composition to suit the samples in my opinion is a sample deadly sin)

Not sure what Mic set up robin had but I did find that having most loaded offered a full and detailed sound but in an actual composition it might fare differently.

Also in general i am vehemently against this idea that we composers need to work hard to hide the bad programming of devs.


----------



## Nils Neumann

Marsen said:


> First, thanks for the effort @shawnsingh to show us, BSS does shine. Nice example.
> 
> I´m not biased towards any direction.
> I watched this controversial discussion for a while.
> 
> Does someone seriously think, a director will tell you/us "I like your music, but this bumpy legato transition at 2:30 is turning me off, I´m sorry, you don´t get the job" ?
> Or is it more like a nerdy " I´m the Marvel Legato-Master Wisdom Key-Holder" discussion?
> 
> Please, I´m just thinking of what the heck we´re talking about.
> Bad playability, and a lot of programming work to just getting a library to work? Then, I´m totally in. Forget what I wrote,- I hate the library!
> Different tastes, then I´m totally out.
> 
> I´m not interested, in blaming any single one in this thread, and it´s not intended, as I do have respect for the community.
> But I just don´t get it.
> Some are happy, others are not with BSS . There are odd things, which for sure has to be adressed, no problem with that, but that´s it.
> Adress it to the developer, that´s fine.
> If you don´t like it, you don´t buy it. No? And I know, we have to be critical on releases, so we can have a lively discussion about that, and that´s also totally fine.
> 
> But if someone bought BSS, makes great music with it, what is the point not to applause him?
> I, for myself, am very unsure of purchasing this library. I´m thinking, I could maybe stack BS with other libraries, I already have, to achieve this kind of sound.
> And I recognized the lack of violins expression. On the other hand vibrato and even portamento are sometimes overrated/overused, but yes- nice to have.
> But also, like the example of shawnsingh shows, BSS does have a sound no other library I actually know, can reproduce.
> 
> Anyway, if anybody feels to be offended of what I had to say , this wasn´t my intension.





shawnsingh said:


> Let's have some concrete constructive discussion -
> 
> Attached is Adagio for Strings programmed with BSS. This piece is a tough challenge for high powerful violins in the climax, as well as for consistent buttery smooth melodic legato at various dynamics. Comments and feedback welcome. Please forgive any wrong notes or bad tempo.
> 
> To my ear personally, BSS meets the challenge and I think it turned out really good. Totally OK if you disagree, I'd be interested in a reality check about it so that I don't fool myself. I know there's a few places in the middle I didn't put enough CC tweaking effort, especially around that famously awkward cello note around 2:30.
> 
> Some interesting insights to share from this experience, about the "bumpy legato" and "sterile/weak" violin sound:
> 
> The "bumpy legato" issue can 95% be solved by a combination of (a) adjusting the legato volume level in Sine player for that articulation and (b) manually programming in your own CC "dips" to counteract the "bumps".
> Yes, it's completely fair to say that users shouldn't have to work around bumpy legato with additional effort. But still, I'm just saying, it's possible to overcome it. I do think there's a good chance it's something OT may be able to fix over time - they already improved it with the library update, and with any luck, it can be addressed entirely with more updates.
> I have a hypothesis why many of us feel like the violins are "weak" or "sterile" sounding, especially in the high register - it's because the dark timbre hides a lot of what's going on in the sound. Adding a significant EQ bump in high frequencies reveals a decent amount of vibrato, the subtle sound of rebows, and just makes it more obvious how expressive the violins really are. So far, the EQ I tried is a very wide Q, peaking around 10 kHz, at +10 dB. On Adagio for Strings in the climax, it really does make a huge difference and sounds beautiful.
> Despite this EQ thing, it does require volume automation or layering to increase the volume of violins a bit. To program Adagio for Strings, a few places I wanted to layer marcatos and sustains together anyway, so I used two violin 1 patches to get that extra 3-6 dB of volume at the climax.
> Wish it were possible to avoid the violin E-string when desired - in someplaces it sounds too bright on Violins 1
> I was too lazy to automate the vibrato control, I'm sure it would have made a really good difference at the ending.


Ok, not it’s coming in my template! Wonderful mockup!


----------



## MGdepp

I suppose more and more people realize how many discussions here on ViC are a fight against windmills! The more I see it the more I simply switch towards not responding all those illogical or hateful (or both) posts. Then, some people call you arrogant. Well, probably better than working yourself up for nothing, I guess ...


----------



## AEF

muziksculp said:


> @Robin,
> 
> I would suggest you email Orchestral Tools informing them of what you feel needs improved in the library, i.e. the legatos, and anything else, they are a very professional team that will listen to your requests, and try to improve their product.
> 
> Actually, I don't find the Legatos in BSS bumpy, so I'm not sure what bumpy means anymore. I don't hear bumpiness when I'm using the Legatos, maybe I need an ear checkup to make sure I'm not missing those bumpy legatos being discussed here.
> 
> I also would like to repeat that each string library needs some time to practice using it, and get to know it really well, it is not a plug-n-play scenario, I think that is a general rule, not something that is unique to BSS.
> 
> BSS is a young Strings Library, I'm sure it will get updated, with further features/improvements as it matures, now that OT is not using Kontakt, they have full control over their libraries performance, features, and quality. They won't neglect it if there is an issue, or they are getting user request to improve specific issues, or playability, ..etc.
> 
> Thanks for contributing to this topic, lets focus on the positive side of things, this library sounds wonderful, and will only be getting better, and better in the days ahead.
> 
> Cheers,
> Muziksculp



im a big fan of OT and user of their products.

but the legatos are mediocre in JXL brass, and it’s been out for over a year. 

I like BSS but it’s not any better or worse than a half dozen other libraries, and the new legatos are nothing more than adequate. In fact the expressiveness of original Berlin Strings might be greater bc they have three modes of legato, and variable attack based on velocity, which BSS lacks.


----------



## dzilizzi

I think it is great to show the bad and the good. Personally, I appreciate everyone who has taken the time to do samples using the library. I guess where I was getting annoyed was all the "CSS is so much better!" comments when I thought they both sounded bad. If CSS lovers thought that was a good example of CSS sound, I would never buy it. Whereas there are parts of the BSS version that sound great. I don't think my ears are that bad. 

I do hope OT fixes the issues that are being found. I do like the tone of the library. I also hope you all are reporting the issues you are finding. I don't know that OT watches the non-commercial threads like Spitfire does.


----------



## Marsen

dzilizzi said:


> I guess where I was getting annoyed was all the "CSS is so much better!" comments when I thought they both sounded bad.


Exactly


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Unfortunately the most logic woodwinds to use with BSS is BBCSO and it hates my computer


----------



## Tom Ferguson

"Bootlickers: The Thread" ; )


----------



## lettucehat




----------



## dzilizzi

I'm kind of curious. How does BSS compare to HZS? Seems like they are similar size.


----------



## Peter Satera

MGdepp said:


> I will say it again and again, if necessary: users on ViC trying to suppress critical thoughts on libraries are not doing the community of the forum a favor ... please stop being touchy about products you bought!



And I will repeat why your "critical" thought was asked to be *held off* (not stopped).

You posted negatively, *summarising* the libraries "altogether" poor impression and performance _within hours_ of release, on a _developers announcement thread_. Then, in another follow up post, stated you in fact had only tried _a few mics and one violin_. I stated you could try the rest to collate a complete review before slating the lib. You said "No". _Then,_ went on to talk about how you didn't like the demos on that thread.

Now it's been established the library's strengths are in the viola, cello and basses.

Constructive discussion is welcomed, but you were far from "suppressed".


----------



## Peter Satera

dzilizzi said:


> I'm kind of curious. How does BSS compare to HZS? Seems like they are similar size.


I imagine the articulations alone could make this sort of discussion challenging. With HZ being violins on left/ right instead of 1st/2nd. Many legato types in BSS for melodies, fast passages, etc but HZ having all those soft and huge sections, like 60 cellos. 

I don't have BSS, but do have HZS, it would be interesting though if someone does have both, they may complement each other? The vibrato on HZS is also milder compared to CSS.


----------



## MGdepp

Peter Satera said:


> You posted negatively, *summarising* the libraries "altogether" poor impression and performance _within hours_ of release, on a _developers announcement thread_. Then, in another follow up post, stated you in fact had only tried _a few mics and one violin_. I stated you could try the rest to collate a complete review before slating the lib. You said "No". _Then,_ went on to talk about how you didn't like the demos on that thread.


And here it shows again why one should just not bother to answer people like you AT ALL: You are just on a quest of forcing your agenda on everybody else and on the way you are not shying back from the most despicable misquotes.

1) I was asked by other users what my first impressions were AFTER I had said, that I had just downloaded a few mic positions of the first violins.
2) I didn't need further downloads for the impressions that the demos are below the usual OT standard.
3) I did not at all make a poor impression of the whole library, but I exactly differentiated between what I liked about the first Violins and what not. Everybody can go back to the thread and read it, yet, you choose to misquote me and tell lies.
4) And yes: I said no to your request to suppress that information. Only that one you got right!


----------



## galactic orange




----------



## Peter Satera

"Forcing _*my*_ agenda"? You've posted in this thread three times (1, 2, 3) and all times have been about _your_ issues with users.

In the other thread, I simply stated it would be beneficial to _"hold off until you had the full library"_ it's hardly suppression. I even asked to hear a full opinion once you had it all. We've seen so many times already why spending time with a full library is best.

I'm not looking to argue, PM people if you have issues with users, directly. People are be able to voice opinion and have the equal right to post opposing opinion. 

Overall, I do Hope you find something great from the library, _nobody _likes wasting a lot of cash. I am looking forward in hearing something from you as other users are showing some good points and issues to hear pros/cons.


----------



## Simon Ravn

Kevinside said:


> The walkthrough covers the mic positions in detail...




No it doesn't. Only for ensemble short articulations. Or did I skip some parts where they demonstrate different mics with legato/sustains?


----------



## CT

Hello how does BSS compare to Omnisphere please, do I need it if I have Omnisphere?


----------



## MGdepp

Peter Satera said:


> "Forcing _*my*_ agenda". You've posted in this thread three times (1, 2, 3) and all times have been about your issues with users.


Exactly! That is why I propose to just listen to what everyone has to say (including Robin). You, on the other hand, want to belittle users with opinions that don't fit your way. 

Find one post of mine where I do belittle (not disagree with!!!) another forum user for offering his/her opinion and you win. I would only do that when people really misquote (like you did) and hereby try to put their words in other peoples mouth. If people start doing that, it is not worth discussing with them at all. Whoever takes the time to check your accusations towards me will quickly realize that all of it is just made up! That says everything one needs to know ...


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Congratulations Orchestral Tools! You've made it to the big leagues.

The only way to know if you're truly catching up to spitfire is the amount of drama stemming from each release!

Real talk, as much as I like the library - I'm still locked in with berlin strings, mainly due to the fact that I have so much more of a palette to work with(I have every expansion). 
I ***MIGHT*** use this as a source for EQ matching as an experiment though


----------



## Peter Satera

@MGdepp You make several false claims. Especially, to state I'm belittling "users" that don't fit my way.

If *you* are feeling belittled, suppressed, or you feel you have been misquoted and others have called you arrogant, I apologise for the experience you've had at VI since you've joined.

As I said, PM me if you have issues, don't start going into other threads and falsely claim you've been "suppressed". That's simply a lie, and yes people _can_ see that.


----------



## styledelk

Once upon a time a magician came to town. He offered the residents tasty food and entertainment for $5. In this town, food was bitter, and entertainment was either cheaply made on kazoos or terribly expensive and out of reach. 
Those residents that took up the magician’s offer were given superpowers and mirth. But soon some of the residents began to complain. “This food is delightful! It tastes a little like this other food, but it differs in some way and I’d like it to be perfect and my way!” Others were worried the magician was only testing new ideas on them, and should bring only fully formed goods, not magic. 
Others still longed only for their bland food and kazoos. 
The magician called a meeting. “My dear people! You seem to forget I have brought you magic! You receive better than you would have alone, yet you complain. You are fed and entertained, yet you complain. You have seen the very height of magic today, yet you want more (or less). You see a magician at work, yet want to know the trick, or make requests for the magic to go some other way. You are cursed by capitalism. I give you magic and you wanted a packaged Twinkie and a FischerPrice Kazoo. “


----------



## Peter Satera

ProfoundSilence said:


> Real talk, as much as I like the library - I'm still locked in with berlin strings, mainly due to the fact that I have so much more of a palette to work with(I have every expansion).
> I ***MIGHT*** use this as a source for EQ matching as an experiment though



Since you have both, is the run articulation in Berlin Strings more flexible/smooth than BSS fast legato articulations? Its something I don't really get from CSS, but I see CS2 have it.


----------



## lettucehat

Truly one of the most profoundly awful things I’ve read on a forum in 20+ years congrats.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Peter Satera said:


> Since you have both, is the run articulation in Berlin Strings more flexible/smooth than BSS fast legato articulations? Its something I don't really get from CSS, but I see CS2 have it.


You can create faster legato patches with berlin strings because you have the tools to create custom run articulations.

You could do a poly articulation with SINE and still come up with a good run I'm sure, but the main thing that would make me want to use berlin strings at this point is merely the insane amount of articulations recorded with it, Also I'd kill to have the marcato long and shorts in berlin strings.

A first test with the violin I(berlin strings EQ match'd with BSS), using the expressivo articulation(with legato) and sustain soft as a divisi pad behind it. I like what I'm hearing, although I think I'd only do this to the violins+ viola, as I actually really like the celli from berlin strings main

Full disclosure, I'm playing both patches at once(hence the arbitrary legato transitions from my chord hand) and ofcourse little to no modwheel usage


----------



## Fry777

I'm surprised nobody did a direct comparison to SSS... or did I miss it ?


----------



## Zero&One

Mikay said:


> And if I understand it correctly, some guys at OT must now fix issues right when everyone else is having their christmas holidays. Not cool. They could have waited a few weeks like Audiobro or East West to deliver a polished product.



Huh?
I read from OT, quote:

"Please note that our support will be closed from Dec 24 to Jan 03. We'll be there for you again in 2021!
Happy Holidays and a Happy New Year 2021!"


----------



## ism

Fry777 said:


> I'm surprised nobody did a direct comparison to SSS... or did I miss it ?


That would be interesting. BSS feels like it should fit somewhere between SSS and HZS. And maybe the Arks.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Here is the comparison:

BSS sounds like a scoring stage
SSS sounds like a washed out church
BSS has more dynamic layers
BSS has better shorts by a mile
SSS has more articulations, bowing types, ect.

So SSS if you like long articulations and if you like the sound of SSS.(I don't consider every library recorded in AIR to sound like the scores from AIR, because the engineering sounds totally different to me)

Really though, I've got so many things I'd like to get done but the holidays + backwards sleep schedule are making me sleep when I'm supposed to be awake on days off, and be too lethargic on my days working due to not enough sleep between shifts to be useful.


----------



## holywilly

ProfoundSilence said:


> You can create faster legato patches with berlin strings because you have the tools to create custom run articulations.
> 
> You could do a poly articulation with SINE and still come up with a good run I'm sure, but the main thing that would make me want to use berlin strings at this point is merely the insane amount of articulations recorded with it, Also I'd kill to have the marcato long and shorts in berlin strings.
> 
> A first test with the violin I(berlin strings EQ match'd with BSS), using the expressivo articulation(with legato) and sustain soft as a divisi pad behind it. I like what I'm hearing, although I think I'd only do this to the violins+ viola, as I actually really like the celli from berlin strings main
> 
> Full disclosure, I'm playing both patches at once(hence the arbitrary legato transitions from my chord hand) and ofcourse little to no modwheel usage


Gosh, I wish BSS can achieve this type of playing.


----------



## Peter Satera

ProfoundSilence said:


> You can create faster legato patches with berlin strings because you have the tools to create custom run articulations.
> 
> You could do a poly articulation with SINE and still come up with a good run I'm sure, but the main thing that would make me want to use berlin strings at this point is merely the insane amount of articulations recorded with it, Also I'd kill to have the marcato long and shorts in berlin strings.


Yeah, the amount of articulations is also very beneficial. The ability to do that is what's really appealing in Berlin Strings. I really like the demo of berlin, very agile in places.

There's such a challenge with these libraries, that really, there is no one king. I'm not sure why Berlin Symphonic Strings wasn't programmed with dynamic vibrato. I really wanted that when hearing the announcement.


----------



## Zero&One

dzilizzi said:


> I'm kind of curious. How does BSS compare to HZS? Seems like they are similar size.



Quick HZ - BSS using tree only on both


----------



## Peter Satera

Zero&One said:


> Quick HZ - BSS using tree only on both



Awesome. You can really hear the stage positioning in the tree of BSS. I like both for different reasons, thanks for the comparison. Something I was keen to hear too.


----------



## MGdepp

Zero&One said:


> Quick HZ - BSS using tree only on both


That is Apples and Bananas, if you ask me ...


----------



## Casiquire

Zero&One said:


> Quick HZ - BSS using tree only on both


Is it just me or does the second one sound more alive? The low strings come in with some motion


----------



## Ihnoc

I've yet to have any chance to integrate Berlin Symphonic Strings in my template and write something, but in some noodling I was actually quite happy with the sound. Some things that caught me:

Microphone merging is fantastic in application. I can reduce my RAM footprint for the library to roughly 1/6 but maintain the benefits of all the perspectives, plus all the CPU voice reduction benefits and I can throw the original mic samples on a backup drive. _I_ have been given the control over how the library is divided and loaded - that is great thing in my opinion
EDIT: I have yet to be able to successfully merge anything other than the basses - sadness
The standalone player has crashed quite frequently which looks like due to a memory leak when turning off microphone positions
I have gotten an exception when finishing a microphone merge, but the player continued to function
I like the sound of the library personally, and felt the expressive vibrato soft sustains worked quite nicely for the violins, better than some walkthroughs showed, and as others have mentioned the violas and celli are lovely to my ears
I can see why people are making comparisons to Cinematic Studio Strings (I am doing the same) as on paper they appear quite similar. But they are different sounds and also implemented differently - different strengths and weaknesses. I personally prefer the presence in the sound of Berlin Strings and Berlin Symphonic Strings, but I will continue to reach for Cinematic Studio Strings for extra flexibility in the shorts and alternative legato
I would like to see the trills orchestrator functionality returned as it is with other Orchestral Tools libraries and the con sordino EQ emulation added (for now I will dupe the instruments and send to an effected buss with some EQ derived from Berlin Strings)


----------



## dzilizzi

Mike T said:


> Hello how does BSS compare to Omnisphere please, do I need it if I have Omnisphere?


They are almost the same but totally different. So you should always just get both. They will work really well together except when you use them both in the same piece at the same time.


----------



## Beans

New demo walkthrough


----------



## dzilizzi

Zero&One said:


> Quick HZ - BSS using tree only on both


Wow, I was thinking the second one was HZ because it sounded fuller. Thanks, that really helps.


----------



## Robin

Ihnoc said:


> Microphone merging is fantastic in application. I can reduce my RAM footprint for the library to roughly 1/6 but maintain the benefits of all the perspectives, plus all the CPU voice reduction benefits and I can throw the original mic samples on a backup drive. _I_ have been given the control over how the library is divided and loaded - that is great thing in my opinion


I tried mic merging as standalone and in the vst version without success, it finishes the process but then gets stuck and loading up the new mic after a relaunch of SINE causes my ram to fill up within seconds and not make any sounds and it seems like most users have this problem. Can you maybe shed some light on what mics under which conditions you got to merge successfully?


----------



## Ihnoc

Robin said:


> I tried mic merging as standalone and in the vst version without success, it finishes the process but then gets stuck and loading up the new mic after a relaunch of SINE causes my ram to fill up within seconds and not make any sounds and it seems like most users have this problem. Can you maybe shed some light on what mics under which conditions you got to merge successfully?



I am experiencing the same in standalone actually, besides the basses. Same experience in the VST version.


----------



## Beans

It's a BSS-specific bug that exists in standalone and embedded. It's been reported. No ETA provided on fix, as far as I'm aware. OT support simply told me to not try to merge in the meantime. I'm a fan of many OT libraries, but this was a sloppy miss.


----------



## Peter Satera

Beans said:


> New demo walkthrough



Thanks for sharing. Are we listening to some of this through her speakers?

Seeing the walk-through I really liked some of the playing which showed it off. Seeing this, it's done the opposite, is it just me, or is there a certain _staleness _in this example?


----------



## shawnsingh

Dear all, I encourage you to try reading the past few pages of drama while listening to Adagio for Strings (I did so since I had been trying to make a mockup of it). I suggest you imagine each post like a slow motion shot of someone screaming, war-torn in mud and cuts, taking a bullet for each solid point that was made.

It's almost as good as playing Dark Side of the Moon on top of Wizard of Oz.

And then please remember, we're all on the same side here - we love music, we love virtual instruments, and we want to have fun (and profit) talking about workflows and preferences.

I'll share the second version of my Adagio for Strings soon, just want to do one more polish pass over it later today.


----------



## jbuhler

ProfoundSilence said:


> Here is the comparison:
> 
> BSS sounds like a scoring stage
> SSS sounds like a washed out church
> BSS has more dynamic layers
> BSS has better shorts by a mile
> SSS has more articulations, bowing types, ect.
> 
> So SSS if you like long articulations and if you like the sound of SSS.(I don't consider every library recorded in AIR to sound like the scores from AIR, because the engineering sounds totally different to me)
> 
> Really though, I've got so many things I'd like to get done but the holidays + backwards sleep schedule are making me sleep when I'm supposed to be awake on days off, and be too lethargic on my days working due to not enough sleep between shifts to be useful.


I mostly agree with this except I don’t think the BSS shorts are “better.” The SSS shorts have a different sensibility, and this is true throughout the two libraries. In the bits of midi I’ve dropped first on one library and then the other, the most obvious thing isn’t that one is better than the other (though I might prefer one to the other in particular cases) but that they deliver quite different performances that seem not to be just the result of the fact that the libraries are scripted differently, with distinct crossover velocities, dynamic layer mappings, and such. They have distinct expressive aims. Despite many saying that the legato of BSS, especially the violins, seems temperamentally cool, I find the shorts to be temperamentally hot, especially compared to SSS, which generally gives what I would call more restrained performances of the same midi. 

Here’s a noodle that I quickly threw together the day it was released. I did not do much crafting of it (the doubles in particular could be brought out a bit more), there’s no mixing, very little balancing, because my aim was to test and learn the library, not produce anything like a finished composition. (As far as I recall for BSS it's just the default mics (spot 1 and tree). Then that same midi for SSS, using the close and the tree.) This comparison of course is even less fair to SSS, since the midi was barely adapted to it (and I didn't even clean up the trips in the SSS shorts). But the comparative methodology here isn’t to determine this is better than that, but merely to listen for differences and work to draw some conclusions about expressive potential. Because I'm primarily interested in what BBS adds to what I have, not what it can replace in my template. And here I find SSS to be temperamentally cool and restrained compared to BSS. Of course, YMMV.

BSS:

View attachment BSS Octatonic Action.mp3


SSS:

View attachment SSS Octatonic Action.mp3


Much as when you set BSS against BS, the thing you notice above all with a comparison to SSS is how limited the articulation list is for BSS. BSS really only has the standard articulations, and even there it lacks a few things like harmonics and Bartok pizz that are typically a part of a standard package. That is not a criticism, and I think everyone will appreciate having long and short marcatos along with the soft and accented sustains, in their place. (I do wish OT would add portamento because that articulation really seems to belong to the sound, the expressive domain of this library, and as I try layering BBS I’m especially drawn to pairing it with libraries that have good portamentos.) But compared to SSS, BSS has a much reduced set of articulations, and in this respect BSS compares to SSS much as CSS does to SCS.

A similar comparison applies to HZS—HZS has many more articulations than BBS—except that even with the update, HZS still has a limited number of shorts compared to its huge variety of longs. I have not yet tested HZS directly against BBS in any systematic way. My initial sense is that they occupy a similar expressive domain (more similar than BSS and SSS) but their faces are turned in quite different directions.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

jbuhler said:


> I mostly agree with this except I don’t think the BSS shorts are “better.” The SSS shorts have a different sensibility, and this is true throughout the two libraries. In the bits of midi I’ve dropped first on one library and then the other, the most obvious thing isn’t that one is better than the other (though I might prefer one to the other in particular cases) but that they deliver quite different performances that seem not to be just the result of the fact that the libraries are scripted differently, with distinct crossover velocities, dynamic layer mappings, and such. They have distinct expressive aims. Despite many saying that the legato of BSS, especially the violins, seems temperamentally cool, I find the shorts to be temperamentally hot, especially compared to SSS, which generally gives what I would call more restrained performances of the same midi.
> 
> Here’s a noodle that I quickly threw together the day it was released. I did not do much crafting of it (the doubles in particular could be brought out a bit more), there’s no mixing, very little balancing, because my aim was to test and learn the library, not produce anything like a finished composition. (As far as I recall for BSS it's just the default mics (spot 1 and tree). Then that same midi for SSS, using the close and the tree.) This comparison of course is even less fair to SSS, since the midi was barely adapted to it (and I didn't even clean up the trips in the SSS shorts). But the comparative methodology here isn’t to determine this is better than that, but merely to listen for differences and work to draw some conclusions about expressive potential. Because I'm primarily interested in what BBS adds to what I have, not what it can replace in my template. And here I find SSS to be temperamentally cool and restrained compared to BSS. Of course, YMMV.
> 
> BSS:
> 
> View attachment BSS Octatonic Action.mp3
> 
> 
> SSS:
> 
> View attachment SSS Octatonic Action.mp3
> 
> 
> Much as when you set BSS against BS, the thing you notice above all with a comparison to SSS is how limited the articulation list is for BSS. BSS really only has the standard articulations, and even there it lacks a few things like harmonics and Bartok pizz that are typically a part of a standard package. That is not a criticism, and I think everyone will appreciate having long and short marcatos along with the soft and accented sustains, in their place. (I do wish OT would add portamento because that articulation really seems to belong to the sound, the expressive domain of this library, and as I try layering BBS I’m especially drawn to pairing it with libraries that have good portamentos.) But compared to SSS, BSS has a much reduced set of articulations, and in this respect BSS compares to SSS much as CSS does to SCS.
> 
> A similar comparison applies to HZS—HZS has many more articulations than BBS—except that even with the update, HZS still has a limited number of shorts compared to its huge variety of longs. I have not yet tested HZS directly against BBS in any systematic way. My initial sense is that they occupy a similar expressive domain (more similar than BSS and SSS) but their faces are turned in quite different directions.



Quite like the sound of BSS here. Thanks for sharing. As you said though, bit unfair to SSS to try and use the MIDI created for BSS, but doesn't sound like a "washed out church". Did you use SSS performance legato patches? 

You can buy SSS for slightly cheaper than the BSS intro offer at the moment in case that is a consideration.


----------



## jbuhler

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Quite like the sound of BSS here. Thanks for sharing. As you said though, bit unfair to SSS to try and use the MIDI created for BSS, but doesn't sound like a "washed out church". Did you use SSS performance legato patches?
> 
> You can buy SSS for slightly cheaper than the BSS intro offer at the moment in case that is a consideration.


This is mostly shorts, so no, I used the regular short patches (mostly spiccato). Legato was only used on the pseudo-run into the trill.

Given that the only thing that was adopted to SSS was shifting a couple of articulation assignments, I thought it came off surprisingly ok, and for me it was sufficient to suggest a basic difference in the libraries that I'm calling temperament. SSS could certainly do this much more convincingly. And I should add that BBS could as well. I'm sure I could also push SSS in the direction of BBS and vice versa but the libraries also have default temperamental preferences, I think, so if you are composing with the libraries, they will likely nudge your composition in somewhat different directions. 

I already see that when I work with the BBS legatos that I love to do these big crescendos along with the moving line because it's something the library does easily and well. (You can really hear that capability in the Barber Adagio demo.)


----------



## Casiquire

jbuhler said:


> I mostly agree with this except I don’t think the BSS shorts are “better.” The SSS shorts have a different sensibility, and this is true throughout the two libraries. In the bits of midi I’ve dropped first on one library and then the other, the most obvious thing isn’t that one is better than the other (though I might prefer one to the other in particular cases) but that they deliver quite different performances that seem not to be just the result of the fact that the libraries are scripted differently, with distinct crossover velocities, dynamic layer mappings, and such. They have distinct expressive aims. Despite many saying that the legato of BSS, especially the violins, seems temperamentally cool, I find the shorts to be temperamentally hot, especially compared to SSS, which generally gives what I would call more restrained performances of the same midi.
> 
> Here’s a noodle that I quickly threw together the day it was released. I did not do much crafting of it (the doubles in particular could be brought out a bit more), there’s no mixing, very little balancing, because my aim was to test and learn the library, not produce anything like a finished composition. (As far as I recall for BSS it's just the default mics (spot 1 and tree). Then that same midi for SSS, using the close and the tree.) This comparison of course is even less fair to SSS, since the midi was barely adapted to it (and I didn't even clean up the trips in the SSS shorts). But the comparative methodology here isn’t to determine this is better than that, but merely to listen for differences and work to draw some conclusions about expressive potential. Because I'm primarily interested in what BBS adds to what I have, not what it can replace in my template. And here I find SSS to be temperamentally cool and restrained compared to BSS. Of course, YMMV.
> 
> BSS:
> 
> View attachment BSS Octatonic Action.mp3
> 
> 
> SSS:
> 
> View attachment SSS Octatonic Action.mp3
> 
> 
> Much as when you set BSS against BS, the thing you notice above all with a comparison to SSS is how limited the articulation list is for BSS. BSS really only has the standard articulations, and even there it lacks a few things like harmonics and Bartok pizz that are typically a part of a standard package. That is not a criticism, and I think everyone will appreciate having long and short marcatos along with the soft and accented sustains, in their place. (I do wish OT would add portamento because that articulation really seems to belong to the sound, the expressive domain of this library, and as I try layering BBS I’m especially drawn to pairing it with libraries that have good portamentos.) But compared to SSS, BSS has a much reduced set of articulations, and in this respect BSS compares to SSS much as CSS does to SCS.
> 
> A similar comparison applies to HZS—HZS has many more articulations than BBS—except that even with the update, HZS still has a limited number of shorts compared to its huge variety of longs. I have not yet tested HZS directly against BBS in any systematic way. My initial sense is that they occupy a similar expressive domain (more similar than BSS and SSS) but their faces are turned in quite different directions.


Thank you for this. To my ears, the shorts do dig in deeper with BSS giving the sound some more aggression. The violin sustain sounds like the very worst of VSL; i probably would have added some dynamic movement (to both libraries, to be honest. SSS sounded pretty unnatural up there, just to a lesser extent). It confirms what I've been thinking for a while: Spitfire, CSS, etc sound "nice"; BSS sounds "big". OT's big mistake here was trying to market it as an ultra expressive library rather than focusing on its actual strengths


----------



## jbuhler

Casiquire said:


> Thank you for this. To my ears, the shorts do dig in deeper with BSS giving the sound some more aggression. The violin sustain sounds like the very worst of VSL; i probably would have added some dynamic movement (to both libraries, to be honest. SSS sounded pretty unnatural up there, just to a lesser extent). It confirms what I've been thinking for a while: Spitfire, CSS, etc sound "nice"; BSS sounds "big". OT's big mistake here was trying to market it as an ultra expressive library rather than focusing on its actual strengths


As I said it's a rough noodle, and yes it certainly could use a lot more work. There is however continual CC1 movement on the few sustains that are in the example. I agree that the sustain before the the run, though could use more dynamic shaping than I gave it. I think the trill in both examples needs to be taken down a bit, too, but especially in the SF example.


----------



## jbuhler

ALittleNightMusic said:


> You can buy SSS for slightly cheaper than the BSS intro offer at the moment in case that is a consideration.


The legato generally works better for me on BSS. I've never really gotten on terribly well with the SSS legato, which I find always tends to pump too much for my tastes. But SSS has a lot more articulations, and I find them to be useful articulations on the whole.


----------



## peladio

Beans said:


> New demo walkthrough



I really want to like and buy this library but each of these walkthroughs and demos is really convincing me not to..


----------



## jbuhler

peladio said:


> I really want to like and buy this library but each of these walkthroughs and demos is really convincing me not to..


Why are you wanting to buy something walkthroughs and demos suggest you won't like? If you aren't hearing anything that appeals to you, that's a great reason to give a library a pass. There are certainly plenty of other libraries to choose from.


----------



## peladio

jbuhler said:


> Why are you wanting to buy something walkthroughs and demos suggest you won't like? If you aren't hearing anything that appeals to you, that's a great reason to give a library a pass. There are certainly plenty of other libraries to choose from.


Because unlike the OP who says he wants a discussion but then consciously ignores everything he doesn't agree with and only wants validation for his purchase decisions I come here with an open mind and would be really happy if someone could change my first impressions..I really like OT products and use Berlin Strings on a daily basis..

Echo chambers suck (except those at Capitol )..


----------



## jbuhler

peladio said:


> Because unlike the OP who says he wants a discussion but then consciously ignores everything he doesn't agree with and only wants validation for his purchase decisions I come here with an open mind and would be really happy if someone could change my first impressions..I really like OT products and use Berlin Strings on a daily basis..
> 
> Echo chambers suck (except those at Capitol )..


As you describe it, your ears are telling you this library is not for you. I love this library but I've also liked what I was hearing in the demos and walkthroughs. Personally, I think you should trust your ears on this.


----------



## markleake

A good comparison between SSS and BSS, even if just a quicky. Thanks @jbuhler, I've been waiting for this kind of comparison of the symphonic sized libs.



jbuhler said:


> Personally, I think you should trust your ears on this.


I think this sums up perfectly what this entire thread _should_ have been about, but somehow egos took over.


----------



## molemac

peladio said:


> I really want to like and buy this library but each of these walkthroughs and demos is really convincing me not to..


Ditto , I cant believe Ot would let such a demo out let alone a walkthrough when a lot of examples even here on vi are much better such as the one above comparing SSS, where BSS sounds great. It seems the whole cue is played with the mod wheel too high. The Cellos at 4.51 are the most fake I have heard in a long time .


----------



## shawnsingh

Attached final version of Adagio for Strings with BSS. Feedback welcome, including negative opinions. Various thoughts and notes:

I think BSS has a great tone for this piece.
Leader mic made a big difference in the vibrato and nuance. I turned off leader mic for basses, though because it caused weird low frequency volume oscillations.
Probably the niente option would have opened up more options for programming the very quiet passages and fade-out note releases. Will probably try that on a future piece.
Made use of EQ reduction around 4-7 kHz, to simulate violins 1 playing on lower strings or more tasto. This EQ only applied to Violins, and the 6.5 kHz band was automated to allow the sound to be brighter in some places, especially when players reach the high E-string.
With leader mics added, it was appropriate to reduce my previous +10 dB @ 10 kHz EQ on the master bus, now it's just +4 dB centered around 8 kHz.
This uses Valhalla Vintage Verb, too. It actually doesn't make much difference on sustained timbres like this, which I actually appreciate - I only needed it for more reverberation in silent moments, especially right after the climax.
While getting to know the sustains on BSS, I do really wish vibrato and dynamics were both separate dimensions that can be crossfaded. This is how Hollywood Strings works, and it's possible to set up something similar in Capsule for Berlin Strings, and I feel it makes a big difference in ability to control the sound. Still, not a dealbreaker for me to like using this library and who knows, maybe crossfading velocity *and* vibrato would make the sound too thick and not sound good?
About legato bumps - after the update I think I had to smooth out only a small portion of the legato transitions with manual CC programming - not THAT bad. The harder part was managing the swells that crescendo into another note. Also, if you think you hear legato bumps, beware that I intentionally programmed in many "note-attack swells" or "dips" intentionally, and there's a chance I made some of them sound uncanny. So there might be "bumps" that are user error rather than library problem.
I personally don't mind to put a lot of MIDI post-editing effort into things. If you look at my CC, tempo, and EQ automation, and some minor bits of keyswitching, it's a lot and took some time to sculpt the sound the way I think sounds right. This library definitely falls into the category that requires extensive CC roller coasters, to sculpt note attack and add more life. I personally like this approach because it allows a bit more control over the performance nuances.


----------



## Penthagram

To add to the conversation, I did a small test with BSS, very short and simple. 

View attachment Bss Test.mp3


Cello is just some basic Chords with the Bass, Violas use the pattern legato to add some movement and tension and then first the melody is done by the 1st violins, then is repeated by the second violins, then all together.

No external reverb or eq. Just a limiter on the master.

Personally, I like the tone and how easy is to use, to be honest. Shorts are not showcased here but are my favourite thing from the library, especially the spiccato. Legatos are very good when they work. I noticed some intervals/transitions are really beautiful and then others seem to lack the "legato" transition. I think and hope OT can refine it to have the best possible library. I bought it a bit on an impulse as I normally like OT stuff and I'm happy with it. I think it complements well my other favourite strings libraries CSS and Vista and I think the 3 together are very versatile.


----------



## muziksculp

peladio said:


> Because unlike the OP who says he wants a discussion but then consciously ignores everything he doesn't agree with and only wants validation for his purchase decisions I come here with an open mind and would be really happy if someone could change my first impressions..I really like OT products and use Berlin Strings on a daily basis..



@peladio ,

Thanks for the nice comments about me. 

I think if the library doesn't appeal to you, just look for another Strings library that you like better when listening to its demos, ..etc. 

I purchased BSS right away when it was released, because I knew it will be useful for me, and complement OT-Berlin Strings, since I always wanted to complement BS with a Larger string section option. I didn't expect BSS to do everything I need. It's just an additional tool to have at my disposal. 

I'm not biased toward the library, is it perfect ? no it's not, and I did more than once mention that the Violins, and Violas would benefit by having a Molto Vibrato option to have a more romantic-emotional legato sound, the Mic Merging feature doesn't work, ..etc. I'm very confident that OT will fix, and improve BSS as time goes by. So, I'm very happy I purchased BSS. 

I don't ignore any comments, but I don't intend to reply to each post on this thread. I try to be as active, and reply to some of the comments to help with info that will be helpful based on my hands on , yet short experience using BSS. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## axb312

shawnsingh said:


> Attached final version of Adagio for Strings with BSS. Feedback welcome, including negative opinions. Various thoughts and notes:
> 
> I think BSS has a great tone for this piece.
> Leader mic made a big difference in the vibrato and nuance. I turned off leader mic for basses, though because it caused weird low frequency volume oscillations.
> Probably the niente option would have opened up more options for programming the very quiet passages and fade-out note releases. Will probably try that on a future piece.
> Made use of EQ reduction around 4-7 kHz, to simulate violins 1 playing on lower strings or more tasto. This EQ only applied to Violins, and the 6.5 kHz band was automated to allow the sound to be brighter in some places, especially when players reach the high E-string.
> With leader mics added, it was appropriate to reduce my previous +10 dB @ 10 kHz EQ on the master bus, now it's just +4 dB centered around 8 kHz.
> This uses Valhalla Vintage Verb, too. It actually doesn't make much difference on sustained timbres like this, which I actually appreciate - I only needed it for more reverberation in silent moments, especially right after the climax.
> While getting to know the sustains on BSS, I do really wish vibrato and dynamics were both separate dimensions that can be crossfaded. This is how Hollywood Strings works, and it's possible to set up something similar in Capsule for Berlin Strings, and I feel it makes a big difference in ability to control the sound. Still, not a dealbreaker for me to like using this library and who knows, maybe crossfading velocity *and* vibrato would make the sound too thick and not sound good?
> About legato bumps - after the update I think I had to smooth out only a small portion of the legato transitions with manual CC programming - not THAT bad. The harder part was managing the swells that crescendo into another note. Also, if you think you hear legato bumps, beware that I intentionally programmed in many "note-attack swells" or "dips" intentionally, and there's a chance I made some of them sound uncanny. So there might be "bumps" that are user error rather than library problem.
> I personally don't mind to put a lot of MIDI post-editing effort into things. If you look at my CC, tempo, and EQ automation, and some minor bits of keyswitching, it's a lot and took some time to sculpt the sound the way I think sounds right. This library definitely falls into the category that requires extensive CC roller coasters, to sculpt note attack and add more life. I personally like this approach because it allows a bit more control over the performance nuances.


Thank you for that.

Highest violin notes do not sound good imo. If that isn't intentional, OT should perhaps consider re-releasing the lib after fixing the sound (in a few places), legato and possible bugs?


----------



## molemac

shawnsingh said:


> Attached final version of Adagio for Strings with BSS. Feedback welcome, including negative opinions. Various thoughts and notes:
> 
> I think BSS has a great tone for this piece.
> Leader mic made a big difference in the vibrato and nuance. I turned off leader mic for basses, though because it caused weird low frequency volume oscillations.
> Probably the niente option would have opened up more options for programming the very quiet passages and fade-out note releases. Will probably try that on a future piece.
> Made use of EQ reduction around 4-7 kHz, to simulate violins 1 playing on lower strings or more tasto. This EQ only applied to Violins, and the 6.5 kHz band was automated to allow the sound to be brighter in some places, especially when players reach the high E-string.
> With leader mics added, it was appropriate to reduce my previous +10 dB @ 10 kHz EQ on the master bus, now it's just +4 dB centered around 8 kHz.
> This uses Valhalla Vintage Verb, too. It actually doesn't make much difference on sustained timbres like this, which I actually appreciate - I only needed it for more reverberation in silent moments, especially right after the climax.
> While getting to know the sustains on BSS, I do really wish vibrato and dynamics were both separate dimensions that can be crossfaded. This is how Hollywood Strings works, and it's possible to set up something similar in Capsule for Berlin Strings, and I feel it makes a big difference in ability to control the sound. Still, not a dealbreaker for me to like using this library and who knows, maybe crossfading velocity *and* vibrato would make the sound too thick and not sound good?
> About legato bumps - after the update I think I had to smooth out only a small portion of the legato transitions with manual CC programming - not THAT bad. The harder part was managing the swells that crescendo into another note. Also, if you think you hear legato bumps, beware that I intentionally programmed in many "note-attack swells" or "dips" intentionally, and there's a chance I made some of them sound uncanny. So there might be "bumps" that are user error rather than library problem.
> I personally don't mind to put a lot of MIDI post-editing effort into things. If you look at my CC, tempo, and EQ automation, and some minor bits of keyswitching, it's a lot and took some time to sculpt the sound the way I think sounds right. This library definitely falls into the category that requires extensive CC roller coasters, to sculpt note attack and add more life. I personally like this approach because it allows a bit more control over the performance nuances.


Well done , sounds great. To me it sounds best at the beginning and has a nice clarity but as it gets louder it just starts sounding like samples competing (problem with big libraries )especially the high bit. The louder it gets instead of emotion you get the feeling of the mod wheel riding and a more synthetic sound . For clarity it possibly beats the CSS version but not for warmth and emotion. However I dont mean to criticise your hard work because it is very well crafted but samples are just that .Well done again for persisting , I have been trying to do the same and know how hard it is to work for hours on a piece like that , you keep doubting yourself. I went round in circles starting off with Dimension strings and then deciding CSS was way better having heard the below . I decided to then do a mix of all my libraries ,trying to chose the best person for the job, ie CSS violins for the top line, Synchron +Dimensions for 2nds for clarity, some Berlin violas, Dimension basses and cellos a mix of CSS and Lass mixed into MIr pro to try and give it space using only close mikes where poss. The idea was to see if smaller sections mixed in with bigger sections could improve the sample build up scenario . Unfortunately I decided it still didn’t beat the CSS version so I gave up . I might post it later as a comparison exercise but as its not what the thread is about maybe I shouldn’t.


----------



## muziksculp

Hi, @shawnsingh ,

Thanks for posting your new demo version of the Adagio for Strings using BSS. It sound very good. 

I think you would have been able to get even better results if there was a controlled vibrato option in this library, where one can dial in the amount from poco, all the way to Molto Vibrato. Especially for the Violins and Violas. That has been my wish since I began using this library, and imho. this will make a huge difference in the expressive capabilities of this library when it comes to the Sustains, and Legato Articulations. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## Casiquire

molemac said:


> Well done , sounds great. To me it sounds best at the beginning and has a nice clarity but as it gets louder it just starts sounding like samples competing (problem with big libraries )especially the high bit. The louder it gets instead of emotion you get the feeling of the mod wheel riding and a more synthetic sound . For clarity it possibly beats the CSS version but not for warmth and emotion. However I dont mean to criticise your hard work because it is very well crafted but samples are just that .Well done again for persisting , I have been trying to do the same and know how hard it is to work for hours on a piece like that , you keep doubting yourself. I went round in circles starting off with Dimension strings and then deciding CSS was way better having heard the below . I decided to then do a mix of all my libraries ,trying to chose the best person for the job, ie CSS violins for the top line, Synchron +Dimensions for 2nds for clarity, some Berlin violas, Dimension basses and cellos a mix of CSS and Lass mixed into MIr pro to try and give it space using only close mikes where poss. The idea was to see if smaller sections mixed in with bigger sections could improve the sample build up scenario . Unfortunately I decided it still didn’t beat the CSS version so I gave up . I might post it later as a comparison exercise but as its not what the thread is about maybe I shouldn’t.



I'm not hearing a better performance here with the first demo at all (CS2?) It sounds washed out and has some odd dynamic bumps. The second one is certainly better. Probably the biggest things i like about the second performance (CSS?) are the slow, gentle note releases. I'm not sure I'd call it superior to BSS though which is clearer and dynamically much smoother than either of the two. And i hear legato bumps in that second example. The whole "CSS has flawless legato that can't be beat" talk presented here as a universal truth looks like more and more of a sham every day.


----------



## molemac

Casiquire said:


> I'm not hearing a better performance here with the first demo at all (CS2?) It sounds washed out and has some odd dynamic bumps. The second one is certainly better. Probably the biggest things i like about the second performance (CSS?) are the slow, gentle note releases. I'm not sure I'd call it superior to BSS though which is clearer and dynamically much smoother than either of the two. And i hear legato bumps in that second example. The whole "CSS has flawless legato that can't be beat" talk presented here as a universal truth looks like more and more of a sham every day.


correct not the CS2 one which is the first one , I agree about the clarity but there is a xtra warmth to the CSS


----------



## Casiquire

molemac said:


> correct not the CS2 one which is the first one , I agree about the clarity but there is a xtra warmth to the CSS


Sure but extra warmth doesn't necessarily mean better overall. Yet again there's a legato in CSS toward the end that's bumpier than the legatos I hear in the BSS version. Those two examples actually make BSS sound smoother by comparison


----------



## molemac

Casiquire said:


> Sure but extra warmth doesn't necessarily mean better overall. Yet again there's a legato in CSS toward the end that's bumpier than the legatos I hear in the BSS version. Those two examples actually make BSS sound smoother by comparison


Sure but not so great when everyone is playing loud


----------



## Casiquire

molemac said:


> Sure but not so great when everyone is playing loud


I thought it sounded fine, and that's no longer a comparison since nobody made a CSS version of that part. Also it sounds like kind of a marcato at that part so I'm curious about the articulations used


----------



## muziksculp

Penthagram said:


> To add to the conversation, I did a small test with BSS, very short and simple.
> 
> View attachment Bss Test.mp3
> 
> 
> Cello is just some basic Chords with the Bass, Violas use the pattern legato to add some movement and tension and then first the melody is done by the 1st violins, then is repeated by the second violins, then all together.
> 
> No external reverb or eq. Just a limiter on the master.
> 
> Personally, I like the tone and how easy is to use, to be honest. Shorts are not showcased here but are my favourite thing from the library, especially the spiccato. Legatos are very good when they work. I noticed some intervals/transitions are really beautiful and then others seem to lack the "legato" transition. I think and hope OT can refine it to have the best possible library. I bought it a bit on an impulse as I normally like OT stuff and I'm happy with it. I think it complements well my other favourite strings libraries CSS and Vista and I think the 3 together are very versatile.


Hi @Penthagram ,

Thanks for the demo. 

The first two notes in the demo sound like they are playing a short portamento/slide into the note, are those the violins playing the Pattern-Legato articulation ?


----------



## Scalms

Penthagram said:


> To add to the conversation, I did a small test with BSS, very short and simple.
> 
> View attachment Bss Test.mp3
> 
> 
> Cello is just some basic Chords with the Bass, Violas use the pattern legato to add some movement and tension and then first the melody is done by the 1st violins, then is repeated by the second violins, then all together.
> 
> No external reverb or eq. Just a limiter on the master.
> 
> Personally, I like the tone and how easy is to use, to be honest. Shorts are not showcased here but are my favourite thing from the library, especially the spiccato. Legatos are very good when they work. I noticed some intervals/transitions are really beautiful and then others seem to lack the "legato" transition. I think and hope OT can refine it to have the best possible library. I bought it a bit on an impulse as I normally like OT stuff and I'm happy with it. I think it complements well my other favourite strings libraries CSS and Vista and I think the 3 together are very versatile.


How do the staccatos feel to you? Someone mentioned they were a bit too long, closer to portato. Is there a way to time-shorten them in Sine?


----------



## muziksculp

Scalms said:


> How do the staccatos feel to you? Someone mentioned they were a bit too long, closer to portato. Is there a way to time-shorten them in Sine?



In SINE you can adjust the Attack, and Release Envelope times, and their curve shapes.

So to shorten the Staccatos if they feel too long, just reduce the release time to taste.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

shawnsingh said:


> Attached final version of Adagio for Strings with BSS. Feedback welcome, including negative opinions. Various thoughts and notes:
> 
> I think BSS has a great tone for this piece.
> Leader mic made a big difference in the vibrato and nuance. I turned off leader mic for basses, though because it caused weird low frequency volume oscillations.
> Probably the niente option would have opened up more options for programming the very quiet passages and fade-out note releases. Will probably try that on a future piece.
> Made use of EQ reduction around 4-7 kHz, to simulate violins 1 playing on lower strings or more tasto. This EQ only applied to Violins, and the 6.5 kHz band was automated to allow the sound to be brighter in some places, especially when players reach the high E-string.
> With leader mics added, it was appropriate to reduce my previous +10 dB @ 10 kHz EQ on the master bus, now it's just +4 dB centered around 8 kHz.
> This uses Valhalla Vintage Verb, too. It actually doesn't make much difference on sustained timbres like this, which I actually appreciate - I only needed it for more reverberation in silent moments, especially right after the climax.
> While getting to know the sustains on BSS, I do really wish vibrato and dynamics were both separate dimensions that can be crossfaded. This is how Hollywood Strings works, and it's possible to set up something similar in Capsule for Berlin Strings, and I feel it makes a big difference in ability to control the sound. Still, not a dealbreaker for me to like using this library and who knows, maybe crossfading velocity *and* vibrato would make the sound too thick and not sound good?
> About legato bumps - after the update I think I had to smooth out only a small portion of the legato transitions with manual CC programming - not THAT bad. The harder part was managing the swells that crescendo into another note. Also, if you think you hear legato bumps, beware that I intentionally programmed in many "note-attack swells" or "dips" intentionally, and there's a chance I made some of them sound uncanny. So there might be "bumps" that are user error rather than library problem.
> I personally don't mind to put a lot of MIDI post-editing effort into things. If you look at my CC, tempo, and EQ automation, and some minor bits of keyswitching, it's a lot and took some time to sculpt the sound the way I think sounds right. This library definitely falls into the category that requires extensive CC roller coasters, to sculpt note attack and add more life. I personally like this approach because it allows a bit more control over the performance nuances.


Muuuuch better

I still feel like most of the dynamics are a bit heavy handed, as others indicated (you reach a point where everyone is too loud and there isn't any room to get louder)

In general, much better this time, and a great showcase.


----------



## shawnsingh

axb312 said:


> Thank you for that.
> 
> Highest violin notes do not sound good imo. If that isn't intentional, OT should perhaps consider re-releasing the lib after fixing the sound (in a few places), legato and possible bugs?





molemac said:


> Sure but not so great when everyone is playing loud



I'd love to understand your perspective more - can you please be more specific what doesn't sound quite right? Which notes/timestamps specifically? Is it the note attacks, the timbre, or something else that sounds wrong? 

To my ear, I think the loud high notes sound very real, and I looked up a real recording just now to sanity check what real strings sound like... I feel I can explain the differences between BSS and the real orchestra.

Real orchestra reference example:



First, what is this sound of high loud strings (especially violins), why does it sound this way (for both BSS and the real orchestra version)

Playing loud has a very distinct lower frequency noise component, which is actually the sound of the rosin sticky bow moving along the string. It's very audible when hearing violins in high register playing loudly, and as a violin player myself I really love that part of the sound.
Playing loud requires strong bow pressure and bow speed, and the bow moves so fast that it's impossible to hold a long sustained note without rebowing. So in a passionate moment like this, players choose to rebow any time, intentionally out of sync with each other. Rebowing has a mid-frequency clicky sound that goes along with the rosin bow noise. Players are skillful at hiding the sound of a rebow when playing at normal or quiet volume, but when playing loudly and passionately, players don't even bother trying to hide it, instead they rely on rebowing out-of-sync to keep the sustained sound. So when playing loudly, there is indeed a weird inconsistency to the sound - occasional rebow sounds, and weird subtle loudness/timbre shifts.
a large number of string players playing with vibrato doesn't really sound like vibrato anymore. It quickly becomes more of a thick chorus or supersaw effect, where the individual modulations disappear and you get a very thick sound, higher harmonics of the pitch start to smoothen out. I think this is one thing that people overlook when they judge the vibrato of larger string sections. The vibrato of individual players is just not audible as much. And the smoothing out of higher harmonics makes high notes sound different in a large section - violin section starts to sound almost flute-like playing loud and high.
So some self-analysis, here are the differences I can explain between my version and the real philharmonic link I just posted:

Using leader mics adds a weird "solo violin layered on top" quality, which makes the sound a bit weak and not as smooth compared to the real version. I'm fairly certain this is a mixing issue and not an issue with the samples themselves. If I were to spend more time on it, I'd probably try automating leader mic to reduce it in key places.
I had a challenging time getting the violins to have a sustained-but-accented tone on the last few notes before the climax. In general this is what sus accent would likely be good at, but dummy me, I didn't ever try that. There'd also be a few other ways to do it that I haven't tried either, like volume automation instead of layering. But I went straight into bad attempts at layering sustain legato and marcato/accents. So those climactic notes on my version sound a bit awkwardly separated.
The real orchestra is rife with slight detunes, slurring artifacts, and mis-timings of sections and individuals. That adds quite a lot of character which is really hard to do with a section-sampled library.
The emphatic attacks on the climactic notes in the real recording are just so well done - passionate and powerful. My version doesn't have that and looses a lot for it - however, I suspect a lot of sample libraries wouldn't be up to the task, and libraries that could achieve it might still require a lot of work to get it right.
Cheers!


----------



## shawnsingh

Casiquire said:


> I thought it sounded fine, and that's no longer a comparison since nobody made a CSS version of that part. Also it sounds like kind of a marcato at that part so I'm curious about the articulations used



I think you're asking me?  the last three notes before the climactic top chords do use marcato, yes. the final chord in the climax uses accent sustain. before the climax, when layering, I used some sus-accent on top of sus-legato, and I tried to use CC dynamics to make the accents sound more like aggressive bow changes rather than accents.


----------



## muziksculp

shawnsingh said:


> a large number of string players playing with vibrato doesn't really sound like vibrato anymore. It quickly becomes more of a thick chorus or supersaw effect, where the individual modulations disappear and you get a very thick sound, higher harmonics of the pitch start to smoothen out. I think this is one thing that people overlook when they judge the vibrato of larger string sections. The vibrato of individual players is just not audible as much. And the smoothing out of higher harmonics makes high notes sound different in a large section - violin section starts to sound almost flute-like playing loud and high.



That's a valid point. But, I think that is the case when you hear all of the String Ensembles playing with Molto-Vibrato, but if you were to listen to only the first, and second violins playing with Molto-Vibrato, compared to them playing Poco/normal-Vibrato, there will be a clear and audible difference in the resulting texture, and character of the violins.

This also depends on the dynamics of the other strings sections relative to the dynamics of the first violins playing molto-vibrato.

In the end, I think the way the strings are orchestrated would be the key to deliver that romantic/expressive, and lyrical melodic sound of the violins/violas with molto vibrato to emotionally move the audience. I still think the violins and violas of BSS will benefit from a molto-vibrato option in the future.


----------



## molemac

shawnsingh said:


> I think you're asking me?  the last three notes before the climactic top chords do use marcato, yes. the final chord in the climax uses accent sustain. before the climax, when layering, I used some sus-accent on top of sus-legato, and I tried to use CC dynamics to make the accents sound more like aggressive bow changes rather than accents.
> 
> 
> shawnsingh said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd love to understand your perspective more - can you please be more specific what doesn't sound quite right? Which notes/timestamps specifically? Is it the note attacks, the timbre, or something else that sounds wrong?
> 
> To my ear, I think the loud high notes sound very real, and I looked up a real recording just now to sanity check what real strings sound like... I feel I can explain the differences between BSS and the real orchestra.
> 
> Real orchestra reference example:
> 
> 
> 
> First, what is this sound of high loud strings (especially violins), why does it sound this way (for both BSS and the real orchestra version)
> 
> Playing loud has a very distinct lower frequency noise component, which is actually the sound of the rosin sticky bow moving along the string. It's very audible when hearing violins in high register playing loudly, and as a violin player myself I really love that part of the sound.
> Playing loud requires strong bow pressure and bow speed, and the bow moves so fast that it's impossible to hold a long sustained note without rebowing. So in a passionate moment like this, players choose to rebow any time, intentionally out of sync with each other. Rebowing has a mid-frequency clicky sound that goes along with the rosin bow noise. Players are skillful at hiding the sound of a rebow when playing at normal or quiet volume, but when playing loudly and passionately, players don't even bother trying to hide it, instead they rely on rebowing out-of-sync to keep the sustained sound. So when playing loudly, there is indeed a weird inconsistency to the sound - occasional rebow sounds, and weird subtle loudness/timbre shifts.
> a large number of string players playing with vibrato doesn't really sound like vibrato anymore. It quickly becomes more of a thick chorus or supersaw effect, where the individual modulations disappear and you get a very thick sound, higher harmonics of the pitch start to smoothen out. I think this is one thing that people overlook when they judge the vibrato of larger string sections. The vibrato of individual players is just not audible as much. And the smoothing out of higher harmonics makes high notes sound different in a large section - violin section starts to sound almost flute-like playing loud and high.
> So some self-analysis, here are the differences I can explain between my version and the real philharmonic link I just posted:
> 
> Using leader mics adds a weird "solo violin layered on top" quality, which makes the sound a bit weak and not as smooth compared to the real version. I'm fairly certain this is a mixing issue and not an issue with the samples themselves. If I were to spend more time on it, I'd probably try automating leader mic to reduce it in key places.
> I had a challenging time getting the violins to have a sustained-but-accented tone on the last few notes before the climax. In general this is what sus accent would likely be good at, but dummy me, I didn't ever try that. There'd also be a few other ways to do it that I haven't tried either, like volume automation instead of layering. But I went straight into bad attempts at layering sustain legato and marcato/accents. So those climactic notes on my version sound a bit awkwardly separated.
> The real orchestra is rife with slight detunes, slurring artifacts, and mis-timings of sections and individuals. That adds quite a lot of character which is really hard to do with a section-sampled library.
> The emphatic attacks on the climactic notes in the real recording are just so well done - passionate and powerful. My version doesn't have that and looses a lot for it - however, I suspect a lot of sample libraries wouldn't be up to the task, and libraries that could achieve it might still require a lot of work to get it right.
> Cheers!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi , no problem I will get back to you as soon as I can but its bed time here in NZ (having Vi control is an excellent way of getting through enforced quarantine ) but I also brought my studio in my suitcase so I can work and or fritter away more money on more sample libraries . I might send you my every sound library version to see what you think when I finish it in a day or so . I promise to listen carefully to yours and the real version you posted.
Click to expand...


----------



## Penthagram

muziksculp said:


> Hi @Penthagram ,
> 
> Thanks for the demo.
> 
> The first two notes in the demo sound like they are playing a short portamento/slide into the note, are those the violins playing the Pattern-Legato articulation ?


No, is the Melodic Legato


----------



## molemac

shawnsingh said:


> I'd love to understand your perspective more - can you please be more specific what doesn't sound quite right? Which notes/timestamps specifically? Is it the note attacks, the timbre, or something else that sounds wrong?
> 
> To my ear, I think the loud high notes sound very real, and I looked up a real recording just now to sanity check what real strings sound like... I feel I can explain the differences between BSS and the real orchestra.
> 
> Real orchestra reference example:
> 
> 
> 
> First, what is this sound of high loud strings (especially violins), why does it sound this way (for both BSS and the real orchestra version)
> 
> Playing loud has a very distinct lower frequency noise component, which is actually the sound of the rosin sticky bow moving along the string. It's very audible when hearing violins in high register playing loudly, and as a violin player myself I really love that part of the sound.
> Playing loud requires strong bow pressure and bow speed, and the bow moves so fast that it's impossible to hold a long sustained note without rebowing. So in a passionate moment like this, players choose to rebow any time, intentionally out of sync with each other. Rebowing has a mid-frequency clicky sound that goes along with the rosin bow noise. Players are skillful at hiding the sound of a rebow when playing at normal or quiet volume, but when playing loudly and passionately, players don't even bother trying to hide it, instead they rely on rebowing out-of-sync to keep the sustained sound. So when playing loudly, there is indeed a weird inconsistency to the sound - occasional rebow sounds, and weird subtle loudness/timbre shifts.
> a large number of string players playing with vibrato doesn't really sound like vibrato anymore. It quickly becomes more of a thick chorus or supersaw effect, where the individual modulations disappear and you get a very thick sound, higher harmonics of the pitch start to smoothen out. I think this is one thing that people overlook when they judge the vibrato of larger string sections. The vibrato of individual players is just not audible as much. And the smoothing out of higher harmonics makes high notes sound different in a large section - violin section starts to sound almost flute-like playing loud and high.
> So some self-analysis, here are the differences I can explain between my version and the real philharmonic link I just posted:
> 
> Using leader mics adds a weird "solo violin layered on top" quality, which makes the sound a bit weak and not as smooth compared to the real version. I'm fairly certain this is a mixing issue and not an issue with the samples themselves. If I were to spend more time on it, I'd probably try automating leader mic to reduce it in key places.
> I had a challenging time getting the violins to have a sustained-but-accented tone on the last few notes before the climax. In general this is what sus accent would likely be good at, but dummy me, I didn't ever try that. There'd also be a few other ways to do it that I haven't tried either, like volume automation instead of layering. But I went straight into bad attempts at layering sustain legato and marcato/accents. So those climactic notes on my version sound a bit awkwardly separated.
> The real orchestra is rife with slight detunes, slurring artifacts, and mis-timings of sections and individuals. That adds quite a lot of character which is really hard to do with a section-sampled library.
> The emphatic attacks on the climactic notes in the real recording are just so well done - passionate and powerful. My version doesn't have that and looses a lot for it - however, I suspect a lot of sample libraries wouldn't be up to the task, and libraries that could achieve it might still require a lot of work to get it right.
> Cheers!



Actually having listened on proper headphones it sounds much better and has a nice clarity and cohesiveness for such a big sound ( from a fellow violin player) I still think the loud section needs work . I think what I meant was that when everyone is playing loud you have too many violin samples playing at once which ends up sounding synthetic and in the real world they would split into divisi which allows the harmonies to cut through even ion that section . I will send you my version created with different libraries blended together using slightly smaller sections for the divisi . I am not saying it is better than your version but different enough to be an interesting comparison. I have done the whole piece too but its bedtime now as I am in NZ having flown from the Uk, so will finish it tomorrow. Actually being in forced quarantine for 14 days as I am, is an ideal time to get lost in Vi control and speculate about buying sample libraries I dont need And do mockups to convince myself I dont need them . ( Madness I know) Also thank God I brought by studio with me ( fits in a suitcase) , a great way to forget about being locked up. My wife thinks I’m crazy but being a composer I am used to isolation and actually quite like it and could stay here longer haha.


----------



## Peter Satera

For anyone as curious as me about this library, this popped up on my radar. (Don't know the dudes name).


----------



## ka00

Peter Satera said:


> For anyone as curious as me about this library, this popped up on my radar. (Don't know the dudes name).




It’s Grand Prize Big Fuzz, aka @SimonCharlesHanna 

I listened to this four times. Beware, you may end up buying the library as a result.


----------



## Peter Satera

ka00 said:


> It’s Grand Prize Big Fuzz, aka @SimonCharlesHanna
> 
> I listened to this four times. Beware, you may end up buying the library as a result.


Thank you for letting me know! Big thanks to @SimonCharlesHanna, the play-through is really appreciated and gives a very clear perspective of the lib on what has been quite difficult to decipher through video/listening experiences.


----------



## muziksculp

Penthagram said:


> No, is the Melodic Legato



Thanks for the feedback. 

I'm curious how did you get that slide sound on the first two notes in the demo. I will to do some extra testing/playing around with the Melodic Legatos to see if I can get these slides to happen.


----------



## novaburst

Peter Satera said:


> For anyone as curious as me about this library, this popped up on my radar. (Don't know the dudes name).



Yikes  nearly 7 gig of ram better make that melody line count,

Most say the library sounds beautifully rich and deep when those mixing mics are being used, 

i am sure 7 gig is the size of some full string library's


----------



## muziksculp

novaburst said:


> Yikes  nearly 7 gig of ram better make that melody line count,
> 
> Most say the library sounds beautifully rich and deep when those mixing mics are being used,
> 
> i am sure 7 gig is the size of some full string library's



You can considerably reduce the RAM footprint by using the Mic-Merge feature in SINE, but it currently doesn't work with this library, hopefully it will be fixed soon by OT.


----------



## Penthagram

muziksculp said:


> Thanks for the feedback.
> 
> I'm curious how did you get that slide sound on the first two notes in the demo. I will to do some extra testing/playing around with the Melodic Legatos to see if I can get these slides to happen.


I did nothing special at all  try to play this exact notes with the violin 1. Let me know what you heard. It should be the same. modwheel started down and ramp up quick after the first note.

I'm curious as it shouldn't behave different for you at all


----------



## novaburst

muziksculp said:


> You can considerably reduce the RAM footprint by using the Mic-Merge feature in SINE, but it currently doesn't work with this library, hopefully it will be fixed soon by OT.



Yes that is ashamed hoping for a fix soon....... this library is capable of taking out the London power grid


----------



## jbuhler

Penthagram said:


> I did nothing special at all  try to play this exact notes with the violin 1. Let me know what you heard. It should be the same. modwheel started down and ramp up quick after the first note.
> 
> I'm curious as it shouldn't behave different for you at all


Some of the intervals on the legato transitions do seem to have some portamento, so much so that when I first started playing with the library I wondered if the library had portamento. But then it became apparent that some of the legato intervals are just that way, which, tbh, is not ideal, even as I wish the library had portamento in general... Here, it seems to be the second dynamic layer from the bottom of the legato transition has some portamento from the A4-D4 and G#4-C#4 (C3=middle C).


----------



## muziksculp

Penthagram said:


> I did nothing special at all  try to play this exact notes with the violin 1. Let me know what you heard. It should be the same. modwheel started down and ramp up quick after the first note.
> 
> I'm curious as it shouldn't behave different for you at all



Hi @Penthagram ,

OK, I can confirm that I do get the same slides type sounding on the first note of a legato phrase when using the melodic-legato mode. also bumping the dynamics of the first note with the modwheel will exaggerate the slide effect. I'm guessing you had the Legato Volume set at 0db. when playing the demo.

I also tested playing the melodic-legato after reducing the Legato Transitions volume by 4 db. (set it to -4 db) via the fader, this made the slide less audible.

I also wanted to test what I would get if I reduced the Legato Volume to it's minimum value of (-180 db), to silence the legato transitions, I got silence where the legato transitions are supposed to happen, kind of an interesting effect  When you play you hear the start of the note, followed by a short silence where the Legatos are supposed to play then the note continues to be audible, this also gives you an idea on how long the legato transitions that were used are. They seem to be considerably long.


----------



## woodywoodstock

I just purchased BSS and yes, it's still buggy, legato is jumpy on a lot of transitions, but I like the tone of the library. I'm pretty convinced that OT will ease out the most of the reported bugs and issues. Here is a short snippet I just did with it...just to have one more demo for all the undecided


----------



## muziksculp

woodywoodstock said:


> I just purchased BSS and yes, it's still buggy, legato is jumpy on a lot of transitions, but I like the tone of the library. I'm pretty convinced that OT will ease out the most of the reported bugs and issues. Here is a short snippet I just did with it...just to have one more demo for all the undecided




Hi @woodywoodstock ,

Congratulations on your BSS purchase.  

I'm sure you will enjoy using this wonderful sounding strings library, and Yes, I'm also sure OT will improve it, and fix some of the current issues via updates, and possibly add more content, and features to it as it matures, and Thanks for the BSS demo track. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Personally I like the spot 2 sóooooo much better than spot 1


----------



## shawnsingh

ProfoundSilence said:


> Personally I like the spot 2 sóooooo much better than spot 1



Interested to know how are you using them?


----------



## muziksculp

ProfoundSilence said:


> Personally I like the spot 2 sóooooo much better than spot 1



Interesting, maybe they used different types of mics. I need to check this. 

Thanks for the feedback.


----------



## Penthagram

muziksculp said:


> Hi @Penthagram ,
> 
> OK, I can confirm that I do get the same slides type sounding on the first note of a legato phrase when using the melodic-legato mode. also bumping the dynamics of the first note with the modwheel will exaggerate the slide effect. I'm guessing you had the Legato Volume set at 0db. when playing the demo.
> 
> I also tested playing the melodic-legato after reducing the Legato Transitions volume by 4 db. (set it to -4 db) via the fader, this made the slide less audible.
> 
> I also wanted to test what I would get if I reduced the Legato Volume to it's minimum value of (-180 db), to silence the legato transitions, I got silence where the legato transitions are supposed to happen, kind of an interesting effect  When you play you hear the start of the note, followed by a short silence where the Legatos are supposed to play then the note continues to be audible, this also gives you an idea on how long the legato transitions that were used are. They seem to be considerably long.


I think Violins 2 have a less "romantic" approach on the legato. And the tone is very nice. Maybe for some phrases that you want to have less emphasis on the slides between notes this second violins work better.

Let's see what are the next improvements to the library


----------



## Scalms

muziksculp said:


> Interesting, maybe they used different types of mics. I need to check this.
> 
> Thanks for the feedback.


i think I read/heard somewhere the Spot2 mic is a ribbon


----------



## muziksculp

Scalms said:


> i think I read/heard somewhere the Spot2 mic is a ribbon



Thanks. 

I wouldn't be surprised. I love Ribbon Mics for Strings, they sound so much nicer than using condenser mics.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

shawnsingh said:


> Interested to know how are you using them?




Time stamped at the part where I noodle with violin I soft sustains and celli. 

1.) enable the mics you plan on using(I use Spot 2/leader/tree/outrigger) and then use a controller to automate in your daw to feel around for the frequencies you're adding when you bring a microphone in/out.

This is much like if you were to pull up an EQ, add a notch at a frequency and then play with the gain to see what's too much/too little of that frequency.

2.) pan the leader/spot mics in the stereo field for width - I don't pan these identically because I want to create the illusion that the two close mics I've chosen are actually stereo in nature.

3.) after finding the "results" by moving faders in my DAW - I copy the results over to the sine mic positions. This will be a step that's not needed whenever OT actually adds the midi automation for these things.

In my case, I end to use the celli melodically - so I use a little more body, so that it can really push - while I treated the violins I like a chord bed - and wanted to keep them lighter/sweeter. But a lot of that is simply also how I imagine strings, violins I and celli being the loudest, followed by violin II - violas, and bass being the quietest.


----------



## Bman70

novaburst said:


> Yikes  nearly 7 gig of ram better make that melody line count,
> 
> Most say the library sounds beautifully rich and deep when those mixing mics are being used,
> 
> i am sure 7 gig is the size of some full string library's



On OT's sites they show 4GB of RAM for system requirements, with 16 recommended. That seems much lighter on resources than I would have thought, and is one of the selling points for me.


----------



## novaburst

Bman70 said:


> On OT's sites they show 4GB of RAM for system requirements, with 16 recommended. That seems much lighter on resources than I would have thought, and is one of the selling points for me.



Haha every time i play a chord my lights go dim 

I think a key part of Sine is mic merge when you use 3 to 4 mixing mics in BSS it is very hard to limit yourself with one or two because the sound and tone are full of body and the more mics used capture this so yes we really need a fix on this mic merge as i am not building another system any time soon


----------



## star.keys

So what is the overall consensus? All the demos I have heard leave with me mixed feelings.


----------



## Muresan

I spent today and yesterday tweaking a new template based on this library and JXL brass. It is still a little messy re. legatos, transitions and some balances (all things that should be easily fixable by OT), but if you dig in a bit and tweak around it becomes perfectly usable. In fact I took this opportunity to better understand the SINE engine and I really like it.

Various articulations need a bit of internal balancing, I also reduced the decays to about half length (I like a bit drier sound at the source, before the reverbs), but once you do it, you can save the patch with all the tweaks and and all articulations and it's all there, a couple mouse clicks away. IMO, one of the best user interface designs out there, as it gives access to everything you need, with a few mouse clicks and straightforward labeling and legending.

Very little hiss, way less then, for example, CSS...almost none.
Not as playable as CSS, as others have noted, but not that far off in my opinion. CSS was my main strings library for the last few years and riding it's curves became second nature to me, so I'm wondering how much that matters and if, in fact, I'll get used to it just fine. Will see, as the modwheel curves feel a little bit weird to me so far.

The tone is glorious for my ear and taste. I love CSS, and always felt it sounds great, but playing them side by side just makes it apparent that BSS is more...real sounding somehow. To me it feels more cutting, meatier, woodier and stringier. The basses are just hair raising ballsy (or balls hair raising) and deep but with perfect clarity too, the celli are the best of the bunch with admirable realism and playability, then the violas, the second violins and lastly, the less strong element, first violins. Not by a lot, and by no means bad, just not quite up there with the rest, like 10% less awesome hehe...

The main issue I have to get past is that it is slightly less playable and quite a bit less predictable then CSS, which is so lovely, balanced and well behaved. But again, maybe I just need to spend more time with it.
All things considered, even in it's current imperfect shape waiting to be slightly patched here and there, it can absolutely be used to make music, with great sound and tone. In fact it will be put to work after NYE for some upcoming albums.

EDIT
Oh and, OT, working mic merging would be so great, now it just gives an error message towards the end of the merging process, pumps the RAM to about 90% and freezes the entire thing. Since it works in JXL I'm still investigating on my side, maybe it's user error, with SDD permissions and such, but I don't think it is.


----------



## Bman70

Well at this point, I feel I've heard sufficient examples to decide not to buy the whole library right now. I just can't quite see myself getting a great sound out of the violins. They seem finicky and more metallic than I prefer but maybe it's just the mic positions. 

In the SSS / BSS example posted somewhere above, the fast Spitfire runs just sounded 90% better to me. Even in the most painstaking arrangements shared, I still didn't think the violins were better than my current HWO, if as good. 

I think the low end sound is almost unmatched, though. But for what's approaching $500 with exchange rates, it's not a no brainer. I might just buy the bass and celli a la carte. Then later the violas. And use HWO for my violin parts. I'll keep listening though, and maybe still decide it's worth it.


----------



## jbuhler

Bman70 said:


> Well at this point, I feel I've heard sufficient examples to decide not to buy the whole library right now. I just can't quite see myself getting a great sound out of the violins. They seem finicky and more metallic than I prefer but maybe it's just the mic positions.
> 
> In the SSS / BSS example posted somewhere above, the fast Spitfire runs just sounded 90% better to me. Even in the most painstaking arrangements shared, I still didn't think the violins were better than my current HWO, if as good.
> 
> I think the low end sound is almost unmatched, though. But for what's approaching $500 with exchange rates, it's not a no brainer. I might just buy the bass and celli a la carte. Then later the violas. And use HWO for my violin parts. I'll keep listening though, and maybe still decide it's worth it.


I would say runs are one area that I haven’t yet been able to get to work reliably. Sometimes they come off ok, but frequently they sound a bit artificial and it’s something I’ve heard in almost all the demos. But I also haven’t yet done any experimenting pairing the runs legato with other articulations to see if it yields better results.


----------



## muziksculp

Muresan said:


> The tone is glorious for my ear and taste. I love CSS, and always felt it sounds great, but playing them side by side just makes it apparent that BSS is more...real sounding somehow. To me it feels more cutting, meatier, woodier and stringier. The basses are just hair raising ballsy (or balls hair raising) and deep but with perfect clarity too, the celli are the best of the bunch with admirable realism and playability, then the violas, the second violins and lastly, the less strong element, first violins. Not by a lot, and by no means bad, just not quite up there with the rest, like 10% less awesome hehe...
> 
> The main issue I have to get past is that it is slightly less playable and quite a bit less predictable then CSS, which is so lovely, balanced and well behaved. But again, maybe I just need to spend more time with it.


Hi @Muresan ,

Thanks for your interesting feedback on BSS.

This library will surely be improved by OT, it is like a flower that's going to bloom. It needs some TLC, and time, but what you wrote about the sound of BSS vs CSS is spot on, That's why I prefer BSS, it has a fuller, more raw/real sound to it, that CSS lacks, plus I don't have to deal with the legato latency when using BSS. 

As far as playability, well .. I guess you are so used to driving CSS, now you have a new library to drive, BSS.  It's like driving a BMW for 4 years or more, then switching to new Audi. It will feel different. Both are great, but also different. Which is a good thing. You will surely get used to driving BSS.

I would love to see OT improve the Vlns and Vlas, i.e. more vibrato option, to get them to sound more expressive/emotional, also fix the mic-merging feature, and other minor bugs, and tweaks.

I have to say, that BSS is one the best sounding Symphonic Strings libraries I have heard so far, and it's only going to get better.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## shawnsingh

Bman70 said:


> They seem finicky and more metallic than I prefer but maybe it's just the mic positions.



On the chance you're feeling the metallic sound because of Adagio for Strings mockup, please note I did use high frequency EQ to brighten the sound to my taste (though I'm now beginning to rethink that). If you would like to hear a version without any mix processing at all, just let me know, I can provide that.


----------



## korruptkey

What's the best venue to log issues? Celli Melodic Legato B1 down to G1 on max dynamics, there's an audible pop


----------



## Muresan

I made this quick thing using only the legatos of all sections and riding cc1 and 11 with CSS reflexes, so clearly tweakable still. Really like the sound of it.









Dropbox - File Deleted


Dropbox is a free service that lets you bring your photos, docs, and videos anywhere and share them easily. Never email yourself a file again!




www.dropbox.com


----------



## muziksculp

Muresan said:


> riding cc1 and 11 with CSS reflexes


----------



## Casiquire

korruptkey said:


> What's the best venue to log issues? Celli Melodic Legato B1 down to G1 on max dynamics, there's an audible pop


Good question, and where do I log issues with SINE too? It's near unusable now.


----------



## jbuhler

I think it's best place to log errors by emailing support: [email protected]


----------



## Babe

jbuhler said:


> I think it's best place to log errors by emailing support: [email protected]


OT support is excellent. However, they did post saying that they are gone until after the 1st of the year.


----------



## Simon Ravn

Oh what the heck. As so often before there was some things in the walkthrough that convinced me that I couldn't live without BSS so I caved in.


----------



## BasariStudios

Babe said:


> OT support is excellent. However, they did post saying that they are gone until after the 1st of the year.


Which is tomorrow. LOL


----------



## Babe

BasariStudios said:


> Which is tomorrow. LOL


Tomorrow is the first of the year. I said after the first of the year.


----------



## yellow_lupine

Does anyone know if Orchestral Tools do refund your order within the 14 days even if the product has been downloaded and used?


----------



## holywilly

I wrote them an email regarding the refund. I also asked for vouchers if refund is not accepted. Now I’m patiently wait for their reply.


----------



## yellow_lupine

Let's hope they will reply before the BSS promo expires


----------



## dzilizzi

yellow_lupine said:


> Does anyone know if Orchestral Tools do refund your order within the 14 days even if the product has been downloaded and used?


I think you can't download if you want a refund.


----------



## MGdepp

Just found this mockup done with Orchestral Tools libraries only and Berlin Symphonic Strings exclusively for strings. Since there is "Version 1" in the title of the soundcloud track, I guess we will also hear some comparisons later on ... no processing applied, just plain midi work from the description. 

What do you think? IMO it clearly shows strengths as well as limitations of BSS.


----------



## Aldo_arf

holywilly said:


> I wrote them an email regarding the refund. I also asked for vouchers if refund is not accepted. Now I’m patiently wait for their reply.


Hi,

What didn’t you like about BSS? Or simply it didn’t fit your actual needs?

Thanks


----------



## Peter Satera

MGdepp said:


> Just found this mockup done with Orchestral Tools libraries only and Berlin Symphonic Strings exclusively for strings. Since there is "Version 1" in the title of the soundcloud track, I guess we will also hear some comparisons later on ... no processing applied, just plain midi work from the description.
> 
> What do you think? IMO it clearly shows strengths as well as limitations of BSS.



Nice find. It is sounding a little rigid in places, it really needs control over the vibrato but there's some nice appeal at times but there's a certain sweetness that's just not coming through. Vista could possibly do a better job at a track like this.


----------



## MGdepp

Peter Satera said:


> Nice find. It is sounding a little rigid in places, it really needs control over the vibrato but there's some nice appeal at times but there's a certain sweetness that's just not coming through. Vista could possibly do a better job at a track like this.


What do you mean with vibrato control? BSS just has a switch between espressivo and progressive vibrato. There is nothing to add even more expressive character. What I am missing is the pale sound of the original in the end. That is also because BSS does not have a non vibrato sustain.

I agree that Vista could sound better for that track, although I am not sure it has enough expressive power to come close to the original, either ... but I definitely think that BSS SHOULD be able to work well for that piece of music! It fits the description of a breakthrough new expressive legato and also the size of the string orchestra quite well.


----------



## jbuhler

I was working with BSS last night and trying to deal with some of the metallic buzzing in the high violin, and found that turning off the top dynamic layer helped to some extent, as did eliminating the tree mic. 

The CC1 levels of the rapid legato and the default sustain legato don’t match well out of the box, which was giving me some programming issues as I was wanting to change mid-phrase. 

I wish the performance panel of Sine gave feedback about the dynamic layer being used like the Capsule does once big dial when you load the individual articulations. I also wish there was a more comprehensive manual for Sine. There are so many things about Sine that are just not well documented.

Is there any way to set the default size for the Sine GUI? Every time I change instruments, it resizes to a default that is larger than my screen, and it’s getting tiresome to have to resize it by hand all the time. I’ll contact OT support about this next week, but they are currently closed.


----------



## Vladimir Bulaev

MGdepp said:


> Just found this mockup done with Orchestral Tools libraries only and Berlin Symphonic Strings exclusively for strings. Since there is "Version 1" in the title of the soundcloud track, I guess we will also hear some comparisons later on ... no processing applied, just plain midi work from the description.
> 
> What do you think? IMO it clearly shows strengths as well as limitations of BSS.



I'm sorry, but I'm missing a pinch of liveliness, maybe adding a cough somewhere in the back row with a good convincing legato will correct the deplorable situation?


----------



## Eptesicus

MGdepp said:


> Just found this mockup done with Orchestral Tools libraries only and Berlin Symphonic Strings exclusively for strings. Since there is "Version 1" in the title of the soundcloud track, I guess we will also hear some comparisons later on ... no processing applied, just plain midi work from the description.
> 
> What do you think? IMO it clearly shows strengths as well as limitations of BSS.




I think this demonstrates just how much better the low strings in it are, compared to the high strings. 

For me, the violins just sound fairly dead/sterile.


----------



## MGdepp

Eptesicus said:


> I think this demonstrates just how much better the low strings in it are, compared to the high strings.
> 
> For me, the violins just sound fairly dead/sterile.


Unfortunately, the first violins are the leading voice thought the whole piece except for the WW intro ...


----------



## Zero&One

jbuhler said:


> Is there any way to set the default size for the Sine GUI? Every time I change instruments, it resizes to a default that is larger than my screen, and it’s getting tiresome to have to resize it by hand all the time. I’ll contact OT support about this next week, but they are currently closed.


Sadly I don't think there is. SINE remembers absolutely nothing on closure, only the patch and settings.
It doesn't even remember if you were on the RR - Dyn - Env page either. So it looks like it does and complete GUI refresh each time and doesn't save user state.
Checked through a few files and couldn't see anything I could edit.

I have to scroll 11 times, each time, just to get to BSS. Looks like my only solution is to uninstall everything. Then add them back in per current use, as it seems it's loaded by install date. Also annoying.


----------



## jbuhler

Zero&One said:


> Sadly I don't think there is. SINE remembers absolutely nothing on closure, only the patch and settings.
> It doesn't even remember if you were on the RR - Dyn - Env page either. So it looks like it does and complete GUI refresh each time and doesn't save user state.
> Checked through a few files and couldn't see anything I could edit.
> 
> I have to scroll 11 times, each time, just to get to BSS. Looks like my only solution is to uninstall everything. Then add them back in per current use, as it seems it's loaded by install date. Also annoying.


I basically like Sine and prefer it most respects to the Kontakt version of libraries where I have a choice. But there are a number of these annoying details that prevent me from being uniformly positive about it. I also wish they’d leave the store and even downloading and maintenance functions for the standalone version. 

I also don’t like the fact that you have to put the main Sine library folder at the root level of the SSD. Fortunately it accords more or less with how my SSDs are organized but it would piss me off if I wanted it installed on a disk with a different organization. This is really not an area that any developer should be able to impose on the user.


----------



## Peter Satera

MGdepp said:


> What do you mean with vibrato control? BSS just has a switch between espressivo and progressive vibrato. There is nothing to add even more expressive character. What I am missing is the pale sound of the original in the end. That is also because BSS does not have a non vibrato sustain.
> 
> I agree that Vista could sound better for that track, although I am not sure it has enough expressive power to come close to the original, either ... but I definitely think that BSS SHOULD be able to work well for that piece of music! It fits the description of a breakthrough new expressive legato and also the size of the string orchestra quite well.


Simply separated out, rather than vibrato which is locked following the dynamics. The more I use strings over the decade the more control is beneficial to produce realism. 

I agree though, this sort of piece is where you'd want BSS to rule. I actually really like the ww and brass though.


----------



## Scalms

jbuhler said:


> I basically like Sine and prefer it most respects to the Kontakt version of libraries where I have a choice. But there are a number of these annoying details that prevent me from being uniformly positive about it. I also wish they’d leave the store and even downloading and maintenance functions for the standalone version.
> 
> I also don’t like the fact that you have to put the main Sine library folder at the root level of the SSD. Fortunately it accords more or less with how my SSDs are organized but it would piss me off if I wanted it installed on a disk with a different organization. This is really not an area that any developer should be able to impose on the user.


you can move the folder once it is downloaded...and the next time you open that library it will ask you where you moved it to, so it's somewhat of a work-around.

I do agree that they should let you choose what folder to install directly into, like every other software in existence today. I mean, come on, this is 2021 now!

There are other things that bug me, especially the install process. It still doesn't tell you how big the download is or the speed it's going, when it's downloading. I would think these things are fairly easy to implement, so it's strange they've not been yet.


----------



## jbuhler

Scalms said:


> you can move the folder once it is downloaded...and the next time you open that library it will ask you where you moved it to, so it's somewhat of a work-around.


Thanks! That’s good to know.


----------



## richhickey

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> I'm sorry, but I'm missing a pinch of liveliness, maybe adding a cough somewhere in the back row with a good convincing legato will correct the deplorable situation?



It is quite useful to listen to (or better yet, watch) a real performance.



The opening violin line is 20 notes in _9 phrases_, and is performed with _9 fresh bows_. Thus only 11 of the 20 notes should have sampled legato 'transitions'. If you play this with the right phrasing on a "legato" patch you are highly reliant on the onset times of the legato patch, which in too many libraries is quite sluggish. Sadly, that is the case for BSS as well.

Berlin Strings distinguished itself in having three (velocity-triggered) flavors of onsets (soft/immediate/accented) per each of the three sus/legato dynamics. The 'immediate' is well suited for non-accented yet timely fresh bows, and one of the things that makes Berlin Strings capable of more realistic and expressive phrasing.

Real string players do not 'breathlessly' slide around for 15 seconds to play this, as casual use of many sample libraries' legato patches would yield.


----------



## prodigalson

Peter Satera said:


> Nice find. It is sounding a little rigid in places, it really needs control over the vibrato but there's some nice appeal at times but there's a certain sweetness that's just not coming through. Vista could possibly do a better job at a track like this.



I recently mocked up the same piece with Century Strings and Soaring Strings. You really need the smaller sections as there’s SO much divisi Throughout. Winds are Infinite WW, Brass and Perc is BBCSO


----------



## CT

MGdepp said:


> Just found this mockup


You are such a goof!


----------



## novaburst

prodigalson said:


> I recently mocked up the same piece with Century Strings and Soaring Strings. You really need the smaller sections as there’s SO much divisi Throughout. Winds are Infinite WW, Brass and Perc is BBCSO



Sounds really nice


----------



## Peter Satera

prodigalson said:


> I recently mocked up the same piece with Century Strings and Soaring Strings. You really need the smaller sections as there’s SO much divisi Throughout. Winds are Infinite WW, Brass and Perc is BBCSO



Yeah, I agree. You've helped a lot to make up mind as I do have Century Strings 2 and Soaring Strings. Century is great. Awesome job, btw.

Although I prefer my Star Wars mock up.


----------



## Hendrixon

Peter Satera said:


> Yeah, I agree. You've helped a lot to make up mind as I do have Century Strings 2 and Soaring Strings. Century is great. Awesome job, btw.
> 
> Although I prefer my Star Wars mock up.



Yea, that's what we call "hidden unemployment" lol


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

jbuhler said:


> I basically like Sine and prefer it most respects to the Kontakt version of libraries where I have a choice. But there are a number of these annoying details that prevent me from being uniformly positive about it. I also wish they’d leave the store and even downloading and maintenance functions for the standalone version.
> 
> I also don’t like the fact that you have to put the main Sine library folder at the root level of the SSD. Fortunately it accords more or less with how my SSDs are organized but it would piss me off if I wanted it installed on a disk with a different organization. This is really not an area that any developer should be able to impose on the user.


There's definitely a few kinks that will hopefully get ironed out. One thing that really bugs me is that on the main page where it shows all loaded instruments and patches, there's absolutely *no *indicator of what is actually playing at that moment.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> There's definitely a few kinks that will hopefully get ironed out. One thing that really bugs me is that on the main page where it shows all loaded instruments and patches, there's absolutely *no *indicator of what is actually playing at that moment.



It's a dot and a different color iirc


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

ProfoundSilence said:


> It's a dot and a different color iirc


Not on mine. The dot indicates the selected artics but not whats actually playing back


----------



## Simon Ravn

Who on earth tests these libraries before they are released - let alone program them??! This is just 1st vlns with molto vib, played at a semi high dynamic, not touching the dynamics.


----------



## yellow_lupine

Looking at this walkthrough video it seems that in the legato patches (during fast passages specially) the reverb disappears(!) creating a very strange effect.
Have you also noticed that?


----------



## djrustycans

Simon Ravn said:


> Oh what the heck. As so often before there was some things in the walkthrough that convinced me that I couldn't live without BSS so I caved in.


Can’t believe you caved after your previous comments! I immediately was unconvinced after the demos and still can’t make my mind up. I’m not all that chuffed with any of my larger string ensembles but I’m finding that Hollywood Strings is pairing pretty well with my newly purchased Berlin Strings.

Is there anything in the BSS Legato/Sustains which makes BSS a winner over HS? I don’t find HS shorts articulate enough so I’m sure BSS wins in that regard. Would appreciate your general thoughts!


----------



## ProfoundSilence

djrustycans said:


> Can’t believe you caved after your previous comments! I immediately was unconvinced after the demos and still can’t make my mind up. I’m not all that chuffed with any of my larger string ensembles but I’m finding that Hollywood Strings is pairing pretty well with my newly purchased Berlin Strings.
> 
> Is there anything in the BSS Legato/Sustains which makes BSS a winner over HS? I don’t find HS shorts articulate enough so I’m sure BSS wins in that regard. Would appreciate your general thoughts!


I like the HWS longs, but shorts are another thing.


----------



## djrustycans

ProfoundSilence said:


> I like the HWS longs, but shorts are another thing.


I like the Cinestrings Spicc (very articulate) or CSS as a replacement for HS shorts. How do you find the BSS shorts?


----------



## stargazer

Simon Ravn said:


> Who on earth tests these libraries before they are released - let alone program them??! This is just 1st vlns with molto vib, played at a semi high dynamic, not touching the dynamics.


Does the molto vibrato come in at higher dynamics?


----------



## Sovereign

Simon Ravn said:


> Who on earth tests these libraries before they are released - let alone program them??! This is just 1st vlns with molto vib, played at a semi high dynamic, not touching the dynamics.


The intervals have more vibrato on them than the sustains they are crossfading into.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

djrustycans said:


> I like the Cinestrings Spicc (very articulate) or CSS as a replacement for HS shorts. How do you find the BSS shorts?


actually don't own cinestrings - but I like the BSS shorts in general.


----------



## Living Fossil

yellow_lupine said:


> Looking at this walkthrough video it seems that in the legato patches (during fast passages specially) the reverb disappears(!) creating a very strange effect.
> Have you also noticed that?


This effect is inherent with wet libraries. It's simple psychoacoustics. Crossfading between reverb portions results in a sound that our brain simply doesn't decode as proper reverb information and so you have the effect of a sudden collapse of space.

I mentioned it recently in another thread:






Audiobro Modern Scoring Strings


sudden collapsing of space I would not have said this better, I think it's SO obvious.




vi-control.net


----------



## Simon Ravn

Sovereign said:


> The intervals have more vibrato on them than the sustains they are crossfading into.



It's mainly a big volume bump happening that is the problem! In Cinestrings, legato intervals have noticeable less vibrato than the sustain samples. But the volume keeps very nicely the same, so it isn't as much of a problem. This is an insane volume change in BSS that makes it unmanageable/unusable at this point. I haven't tried the other sections or tried the same exercise in other dynamics. I just stumbled upon this literally 30 seconds after I first loaded up the patch for the first time.


----------



## Simon Ravn

djrustycans said:


> Can’t believe you caved after your previous comments! I immediately was unconvinced after the demos and still can’t make my mind up. I’m not all that chuffed with any of my larger string ensembles but I’m finding that Hollywood Strings is pairing pretty well with my newly purchased Berlin Strings.
> 
> Is there anything in the BSS Legato/Sustains which makes BSS a winner over HS? I don’t find HS shorts articulate enough so I’m sure BSS wins in that regard. Would appreciate your general thoughts!



Yeah well.. The price was very low and I also am counting on OT improving things, perhaps coming out with additional sample material that will eventually make the library better.

I think HS still (from memory - I haven't used it for a while, mind you) sound more alive - the vibrato is more pronounced and the recording seems clearer somehow. HS also sounds bigger and very different from how I remember it. More focused. I think that is due to the space. Teldex is IMHO too alive and makes (some) things more mushy. I think actually the original BS + their brass has a tendency to have a very bright tail - this doesn't seem as pronounced here, actually it sounds warmer and more controlled in that respect. Maybe a different recording technique/EQ applied here.


----------



## Sang O Lee

Hi guys. Does anyone know if the sale ends right at midnight the 3rd, or 11:59 PM of the 3rd?
Also, is it in German time? OT support is on holiday break so I'm not able to hear a response from them currently..


----------



## djrustycans

Simon Ravn said:


> Yeah well.. The price was very low and I also am counting on OT improving things, perhaps coming out with additional sample material that will eventually make the library better.
> 
> I think HS still (from memory - I haven't used it for a while, mind you) sound more alive - the vibrato is more pronounced and the recording seems clearer somehow. HS also sounds bigger and very different from how I remember it. More focused. I think that is due to the space. Teldex is IMHO too alive and makes (some) things more mushy. I think actually the original BS + their brass has a tendency to have a very bright tail - this doesn't seem as pronounced here, actually it sounds warmer and more controlled in that respect. Maybe a different recording technique/EQ applied here.


Thank you for this. Just watched the walkthrough again and some of it sounds outstanding. Even the exposed run legato sounds good here. To me, the soft dynamics on the sustains sound great with lots of bow sound - excellent for cinematic chordal work. I agree re acoustic - definitely sounds less bright with shorter tail almost. This would make sense with the room having more players in! 
The short articulations sound much better in the walkthrough than HS - much more detail. 
If you have any more findings before tomorrow - please share!


----------



## Hendrixon

Living Fossil said:


> This effect is inherent with wet libraries. It's simple psychoacoustics. Crossfading between reverb portions results in a sound that our brain simply doesn't decode as proper reverb information and so you have the effect of a sudden collapse of space.
> 
> I mentioned it recently in another thread:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Audiobro Modern Scoring Strings
> 
> 
> sudden collapsing of space I would not have said this better, I think it's SO obvious.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net


True, though its more simple to understand it that as you play the legato patch faster, what gets played is the direct sound and maybe the start of ER. once you relax the speed or release last note, then the samples have time to play the verb tail of the room.

Anyway, in the demo above this phenomena is very apparent in BSS... other then in the Celli where it really sound fine.
Btw I just checked SSS, the queen of wet libs, and the legatos there are ok in that aspect.
I can think of ways to mask this, but its not something the average user can do and its really just a workaround.

This should be dealt with in the lib.



Btw, anyone tried to mix BS violins with other sections from BSS?
Should work pretty well.


----------



## Michael Becker

With all the comments in this thread about the quality of BSS I am wondering how much the library would have to be improved over time to justify the pricing of 549€ (excl. VAT) and actually become (or get closer to) what it was promised or advertised to be. Just to name a few:


-Large sections, advanced playability
-Combining exceptional playability with impeccable musicality, Berlin Symphonic Strings sets a new standard for sampled orchestral strings.
-...the most advanced professional orchestra...
-...a new level of playability and realism...


I was very happy with the updates OT did on Junkie XL but for me the library when introduced was already convincing enough to pre-order it.

With BSS I am still thinking of getting the special intro offer and cross my fingers that they improve the library (close) to the standards they set in the advertisement.

It feels a bit strange because until now I really enjoyed every library I bought from them and I was impressed by the high standards and quality.


----------



## Fitz

Simon Ravn said:


> It's mainly a big volume bump happening that is the problem! In Cinestrings, legato intervals have noticeable less vibrato than the sustain samples. But the volume keeps very nicely the same, so it isn't as much of a problem. This is an insane volume change in BSS that makes it unmanageable/unusable at this point. I haven't tried the other sections or tried the same exercise in other dynamics. I just stumbled upon this literally 30 seconds after I first loaded up the patch for the first time.


Unusable? are you kidding? That’s the most absurd thing when you could literally program CC7,c11 to compensate.


----------



## [email protected]

Jut a quick question: Where is the difference in the "Rapid legato + LEG" and the "Repid legato" patch, as well as "Pattern legat + LEG" and "Pattern legato"? I thought they have legato by default...


----------



## star.keys

With a heavy heart, I have decided to drop my plan to buy BSS. I have nearly all OT libraries and like these but have noted since LA Sessions, that they seem to have started cutting corners with basic stuff like Legato. Spitfire has been doing this to me since 2 years now and I stopped buying their newer products (except the repeat mistake of AR1). Not getting the legato right for core instruments is simply not acceptable to me. Random volume Jumps etc which could be noted by developers way before beta testing is not acceptable at any price point. This is just not the behaviour of a business that’s acceptable to me and there is absolutely nothing exciting in any of their products since last year or two. Spitfire has put my money to shame on AR1 and I keep banging my head on the wall for falling for the AR brand. OT seem to be going in the same direction.

Bye bye spitfire and OT, I’m going to start supporting and encouraging smaller developers hence forth.


----------



## jbuhler

Hendrixon said:


> Btw, anyone tried to mix BS violins with other sections from BSS?
> Should work pretty well.


In playing around with layering, I’ve found, surprisingly, that BSS layers less well with BS than almost any other of my libraries. Overall, though, BSS layers very well, and it brings real body to the sound.


----------



## Living Fossil

star.keys said:


> Spitfire has put my money to shame on AR1 and I keep banging my head on the wall for falling for the AR brand.


Out of curiosity: What's your problem with AR1?


----------



## jbuhler

[email protected] said:


> Jut a quick question: Where is the difference in the "Rapid legato + LEG" and the "Repid legato" patch, as well as "Pattern legat + LEG" and "Pattern legato"? I thought they have legato by default...


as far as I can determine, the pattern legato and rapid legato are the sustain portions of those legatos, whereas the +LEG adds the legato transition. So counterintuitively, selecting just pattern legato or rapid legato results in a sound without the legato transition. You can add the other legatos to these sustain portions as well. But these sustains only allow one kind of legato at a time compared to the other longs that shift from one to another depending on triggers. (The main sustain legato is set to melodic legato for the main use and the rapid legato as the secondary but it’s not clear what criteria is being used to shift from one to the other and if there’s a way to change the trigger point or what triggers it, I haven’t found it.)


----------



## [email protected]

Thanks, @jbuhler for the reply! I am just setting up the expression maps for the _Berlin Symphonic Strings_ and wondered where to put those.
By the way, is there any way to change the velocity-controlled short articulations also to CC1? VSL offers to chose if everything should be controlled by velocity-crossfade or not. I miss this in the SINE-Player.


----------



## jbuhler

You can create legato versions of all the longs and the marcatos too, and there’s little RAM impact to doing so, so you can add those directly to your expression map too. Just add second versions of all the long articulations, add legato to them in the little box on the lower right, chose the legato type you want to add, and then set an appropriate volume for the legato transition. Voila, legato soft sustains, legato long marcatos, etc.


----------



## djrustycans

jbuhler said:


> In playing around with layering, I’ve found, surprisingly, that BSS layers less well with BS than almost any other of my libraries. Overall, though, BSS layers very well, and it brings real body to the sound.


Oh balls.. You might just have put the final nail in the coffin here! I was thinking they’d be a superb match. Maybe if you use more close mics in BS and get the meat/more room from BSS?


----------



## shawnsingh

[email protected] said:


> Thanks, @jbuhler for the reply! I am just setting up the expression maps for the _Berlin Symphonic Strings_ and wondered where to put those.
> By the way, is there any way to change the velocity-controlled short articulations also to CC1? VSL offers to chose if everything should be controlled by velocity-crossfade or not. I miss this in the SINE-Player.


I think you're looking for the "Main" tab on the bottom right corner of the Sine player. It has the same options for "velocity vs CC" and when velocity mode is on, "xfade vs switch"


----------



## [email protected]

Thanks again, @jbuhler and @shawnsingh! Now I can set everything up as I would like to.


----------



## jbuhler

djrustycans said:


> Oh balls.. You might just have put the final nail in the coffin here! I was thinking they’d be a superb match. Maybe if you use more close mics in BS and get the meat/more room from BSS?


I haven’t done a close study, just dumped all my legato violins into Unify so I can do a quick mix and match auditioning, playing in real time. Ironically enough, it seems to be the timing of the legatos that fights a bit with each other. It’s possible that you could match these better with a track delay on one or the other. That said, and I mentioned this earlier in the thread, BSS is already the best library I have for layering. It mostly plays very nicely with others, even in this rather crude method of testing, adding its own character without dominating the other library.


----------



## djrustycans

So.... What’s the competition here for larger Orchestral ensemble strings? I currently own:

1. Hollywood Strings Diamond 
2. Cinestrings
3. Cinematic Strings 2
4. Cinematic Studio Strings
5. Metropolis Ark 1,2,3
6. Spitfire Studio Strings Pro
7. Adagio, Agitato and Anthology
8. Spitfire Chamber Strings
9. Berlin Strings 
10. Probably some others I’ve forgotten about!

None of them cover every base - obviously. CSS sometimes can be more beautifully delicate and easy to use than any but for some things, especially the vibrato and recordings drive me nuts (EQ gets me there sometimes 300-500hz cuts often, plus some brightness). 

Recently re-discovering HS and the sustains and legatos are excellent, if un-predictable. Riding the vibrato controls and dynamics simultaneously gives incredible control but the release tails are horrible and inconsistent. You can get away with it using reverb but the shorts aren’t great for me and are a little sluggish in attack and decay for some things.

It’s possible that BSS is capable of being the main large string library for my work as it has the ability to sound detailed whilst sounding large (helped by multiple mipositions), has articulate shorts and can play quick passages. The other plus is the vibrato is not overbearing for general tasks - admittedly, it would be nice to have something a little more ‘romantic’.

NONE of my other libraries can tick all of these boxes.

Tough decision... HS is sounding great for lots of things! Please convince me


----------



## Hendrixon

jbuhler said:


> I haven’t done a close study, just dumped all my legato violins into Unify so I can do a quick mix and match auditioning, playing in real time. Ironically enough, it seems to be the timing of the legatos that fights a bit with each other. It’s possible that you could match these better with a track delay on one or the other. That said, and I mentioned this earlier in the thread, BSS is already the best library I have for layering. It mostly plays very nicely with others, even in this rather crude method of testing, adding its own character without dominating the other library.


You mean the timing in legatos don't line up? I'm sure this can be sorted out with some fiddling.
I was more interested in the sound, like using BS violins with the rest of BSS, as a substitute for BSS violins.

Should be a perfect match but wanted to hear hands on experience.


----------



## djrustycans

Hendrixon said:


> You mean the timing in legatos don't line up? I'm sure this can be sorted out with some fiddling.
> I was more interested in the sound, like using BS violins with the rest of BSS, as a substitute for BSS violins.
> 
> Should be a perfect match but wanted to hear hands on experience.


Don’t realistically see how you could sub BS violins for BSS as they would sound MUCH smaller - layering them perhaps...


----------



## Kevinside

So say hello to Vista...wonderful legato...


----------



## Hendrixon

djrustycans said:


> So.... What’s the competition here for larger Orchestral ensemble strings? I currently own:
> 
> 1. Hollywood Strings Diamond
> 2. Cinestrings
> 3. Cinematic Strings 2
> 4. Cinematic Studio Strings
> 5. Metropolis Ark 1,2,3
> 6. Spitfire Studio Strings Pro
> 7. Adagio, Agitato and Anthology
> 8. Spitfire Chamber Strings
> 9. Berlin Strings
> 10. Probably some others I’ve forgotten about!
> 
> None of them cover every base - obviously. CSS sometimes can be more beautifully delicate and easy to use than any but for some things, especially the vibrato and recordings drive me nuts (EQ gets me there sometimes 300-500hz cuts often, plus some brightness).
> 
> Recently re-discovering HS and the sustains and legatos are excellent, if un-predictable. Riding the vibrato controls and dynamics simultaneously gives incredible control but the release tails are horrible and inconsistent. You can get away with it using reverb but the shorts aren’t great for me and are a little sluggish in attack and decay for some things.
> 
> It’s possible that BSS is capable of being the main large string library for my work as it has the ability to sound detailed whilst sounding large (helped by multiple mipositions), has articulate shorts and can play quick passages. The other plus is the vibrato is not overbearing for general tasks - admittedly, it would be nice to have something a little more ‘romantic’.
> 
> NONE of my other libraries can tick all of these boxes.
> 
> Tough decision... HS is sounding great for lots of things! Please convince me


HS is pretty dry in comparison and in general, considering its sections size.
Cine, to my ears, sound a lot like BS.

In vibe, I would line up BSS with SSS.


----------



## Kevinside

Why are all CSS Fans here... I always ask, where does this awful Hiss come from...cheap microphones?
CSS is badly recorded and nobody seems to realize it?

SSS is wonderful in comparsion, but you have to deal with the lyndhurst hall... So its very wet even using the close mics, but it sounds wonderfull for a big Strings combination...

BSS has flaws, bugs...but the tone is great and the recordings are well done...

CSS has really some frequency issues, which are the same with CSSS and CSB...
Does nobody hear that?....


----------



## djrustycans

Kevinside said:


> Why are all CSS Fans here... I always ask, where does this awful Hiss come from...cheap microphones?
> CSS is badly recorded and nobody seems to realize it?
> 
> SSS is wonderful in comparsion, but you have to deal with the lyndhurst hall... So its very wet even using the close mics, but it sounds wonderfull for a big Strings combination...
> 
> BSS has flaws, bugs...but the tone is great and the recordings are well done...
> 
> CSS has really some frequency issues, which are the same with CSSS and CSB...
> Does nobody hear that?....


Yes - that’s what I was saying but it’s very musical. The sound is its biggest flaw.


----------



## muziksculp

Kevinside said:


> BSS has flaws, bugs...but the tone is great and the recordings are well done...


Which I'm sure OT will fix, and possibly add more to the library to improve it further.


----------



## djrustycans

Kevinside said:


> So say hello to Vista...wonderful legato...


Don’t....!!!!


----------



## jbuhler

Hendrixon said:


> You mean the timing in legatos don't line up? I'm sure this can be sorted out with some fiddling.
> I was more interested in the sound, like using BS violins with the rest of BSS, as a substitute for BSS violins.
> 
> Should be a perfect match but wanted to hear hands on experience.


Yes, it should work as a large section substitute for BS very nicely. And It should work similarly for the Ark strings, though the section size there is more comparable.


----------



## Bman70

djrustycans said:


> So.... What’s the competition here for larger Orchestral ensemble strings? I currently own:
> 
> 1. Hollywood Strings Diamond
> 2. Cinestrings
> 3. Cinematic Strings 2
> 4. Cinematic Studio Strings
> 5. Metropolis Ark 1,2,3
> 6. Spitfire Studio Strings Pro
> 7. Adagio, Agitato and Anthology
> 8. Spitfire Chamber Strings
> 9. Berlin Strings
> 10. Probably some others I’ve forgotten about!
> 
> None of them cover every base - obviously. CSS sometimes can be more beautifully delicate and easy to use than any but for some things, especially the vibrato and recordings drive me nuts (EQ gets me there sometimes 300-500hz cuts often, plus some brightness).
> 
> Recently re-discovering HS and the sustains and legatos are excellent, if un-predictable. Riding the vibrato controls and dynamics simultaneously gives incredible control but the release tails are horrible and inconsistent. You can get away with it using reverb but the shorts aren’t great for me and are a little sluggish in attack and decay for some things.
> 
> It’s possible that BSS is capable of being the main large string library for my work as it has the ability to sound detailed whilst sounding large (helped by multiple mipositions), has articulate shorts and can play quick passages. The other plus is the vibrato is not overbearing for general tasks - admittedly, it would be nice to have something a little more ‘romantic’.
> 
> NONE of my other libraries can tick all of these boxes.
> 
> Tough decision... HS is sounding great for lots of things! Please convince me



The more I use HS the more I like it. I can just rummage around in Browse and always find some articulation or flavor of articulation that works for something I need. I'm not sure if it's necessary (or possible?) to have one "main large string library for my work." It's fine if you have just one library, but with all you have there's no reason to limit yourself to one. BSS won't match BS for sheer articulation numbers, or even HS Diamond probably. 

That said, I've been realizing it's not at all necessary to have as many "colors on the palette" as might be gathered from reading this forum. The listener likely won't know or care whether you use SSS for a piece or BSS, as long as you compose and mix nicely (and honestly much of that will be lost on them too). The last music scores I heard were through iPad speakers and my 32" bedroom TV speakers. They both sound completely different, and to be honest the music is sometimes just a reedy warble behind the narration and foley. 99% of listeners will be hearing through various consumer media speakers which even further distort and disguise the nuances of library variation. So why would I spend thousands of dollars seeking a subtle coloring of strings that only I know about? Lol anyway rant over, that was just a recent revelation leading me to stick to HS for now.


----------



## Bman70

ka00 said:


> There is some depressing truth to that.



It also depends on what audience you're writing for... if it's for music fans who are streaming for enjoyment on a good system, or with their good headphones, they'll pick up much more. (Even though most home theater systems crank the bass way up because that's the impressive part.) They still probably won't notice a string section coloring being "dark" or "bright" to the extent we do here. 

If the piece is almost exclusively a soundtrack along with foley and people talking, it's much less important.


----------



## dzilizzi

Bman70 said:


> The more I use HS the more I like it. I can just rummage around in Browse and always find some articulation or flavor of articulation that works for something I need. I'm not sure if it's necessary (or possible?) to have one "main large string library for my work." It's fine if you have just one library, but with all you have there's no reason to limit yourself to one. BSS won't match BS for sheer articulation numbers, or even HS Diamond probably.
> 
> That said, I've been realizing it's not at all necessary to have as many "colors on the palette" as might be gathered from reading this forum. The listener likely won't know or care whether you use SSS for a piece or BSS, as long as you compose and mix nicely (and honestly much of that will be lost on them too). The last music scores I heard were through iPad speakers and my 32" bedroom TV speakers. They both sound completely different, and to be honest the music is sometimes just a reedy warble behind the narration and foley. 99% of listeners will be hearing through various consumer media speakers which even further distort and disguise the nuances of library variation. So why would I spend thousands of dollars seeking a subtle coloring of strings that only I know about? Lol anyway rant over, that was just a recent revelation leading me to stick to HS for now.


This is soooooo wrong!!!! You must have more string libraries! Then more drives to store the libraries that you must have. Then a better computer to play these libraries you must have!!!

There should be no talk of using what you have because they are good enough. Even if it is true.....


----------



## djrustycans

Bman70 said:


> The more I use HS the more I like it. I can just rummage around in Browse and always find some articulation or flavor of articulation that works for something I need. I'm not sure if it's necessary (or possible?) to have one "main large string library for my work." It's fine if you have just one library, but with all you have there's no reason to limit yourself to one. BSS won't match BS for sheer articulation numbers, or even HS Diamond probably.
> 
> That said, I've been realizing it's not at all necessary to have as many "colors on the palette" as might be gathered from reading this forum. The listener likely won't know or care whether you use SSS for a piece or BSS, as long as you compose and mix nicely (and honestly much of that will be lost on them too). The last music scores I heard were through iPad speakers and my 32" bedroom TV speakers. They both sound completely different, and to be honest the music is sometimes just a reedy warble behind the narration and foley. 99% of listeners will be hearing through various consumer media speakers which even further distort and disguise the nuances of library variation. So why would I spend thousands of dollars seeking a subtle coloring of strings that only I know about? Lol anyway rant over, that was just a recent revelation leading me to stick to HS for now.


Most of what we do is lost on the audience but that doesn’t affect our aspirations! 
I wasn’t thinking for a minute, that BSS would retire any of the other libraries - more that it could be a ‘go-to’ for larger sections that can cover most bases well without having to turn elsewhere for basic tasks.
HS shorts don’t work for me but Cinestrings shorts fit very well as a substitute. HS isn’t particularly great at agile legato passages but there are great patches with Marcato attack and Staccato Slur which can be great for lively melodic passages. I’m covered for smaller ensembles with BS and SCS - SSts can be really versatile for fast runs also with some customisation. 
It would be nice to avoid jumping from library to library for each articulation!!


----------



## dzilizzi

I'm wondering if it would be worth setting up templates by spaces. So, say a Teledex space template would have the OT libraries as they are, but then add in HWO, Vista, CSS, VSL, etc..., whatever you have, pre setup to sound like they are in Teledex, with the EQ and reverb all done. Then just write with whatever sounds good? Do templates for maybe 3 or 4 spaces? Maybe it is too much work. But once done, you are set. 

I don't know if this is possible though. I just hear people talking about mixing libraries and how the legato on one is great, but the shorts on this other are perfect. If they sound similar enough, switching between libraries could work. Just a thought.


----------



## prodigalson

Bman70 said:


> The last music scores I heard were through iPad speakers and my 32" bedroom TV speakers. They both sound completely different, and to be honest the music is sometimes just a reedy warble behind the narration and foley. 99% of listeners will be hearing through various consumer media speakers which even further distort and disguise the nuances of library variation.


This assumes that people listening on iPads and TVs are the first people to hear the score during it’s production and that the volume level at which its heard at broadcast is the loudest it’ll ever be heard which obviously is not the case. Directors, show runners, producers, score mixers and dub engineers will all hear your mockups and final deliveries a LOT clearer and louder. 

While I wouldn’t suggest the audience cares whether you use BSS or SSS, don’t YOU care? Aren’t YOU listening on good monitors and/or good headphones? Don’t YOU want to enjoy the composing and mixing process by using the most satisfying samples for each particular musical idea? Or do you not care what it sounds like during the production process because at the end of the day, audience might hear it on an ipad?


----------



## Marsen

I'm seriously out, as I just pulled the trigger for all these cookies of Berlin BF sale.
Trying to learn capsule and all it's possibilties. Love the Berlin Strings.

Now I'm working on combined patches from Berlin & Arks (some Inspire too) to fit Jeff Russo's Modus, as they are lacking shorts and expressive sustains.
Modus Low Strings Detache is such a big emotional sound, that I was looking at BSS but didn't found it yet. Maybe the section is too big?
Does someone know the string section size of Modus?

I think, everbody has to decide for herself/himself.
I'm sure, OT will sort out some issues , but for now I'm happy with my (old Kontakt) Berlin Series.
On the other hand, if i wouldn't own another big string section library, the intro price is quiet good.


----------



## Marsen

dzilizzi said:


> I'm wondering if it would be worth setting up templates by spaces. So, say a Teledex space template would have the OT libraries as they are, but then add in HWO, Vista, CSS, VSL, etc..., whatever you have, pre setup to sound like they are in Teledex, with the EQ and reverb all done. Then just write with whatever sounds good? Do templates for maybe 3 or 4 spaces? Maybe it is too much work. But once done, you are set.
> 
> I don't know if this is possible though. I just hear people talking about mixing libraries and how the legato on one is great, but the shorts on this other are perfect. If they sound similar enough, switching between libraries could work. Just a thought.


I think, you don't have to worry 'bout to much of spaces, then of phasing, adding incoherent libraries.
Also with stacking libraries sounding too similar. 
That's why sometimes totally different libraries, recorded in different rooms can add quiet well. ( with a bit of reverb).


----------



## MGdepp

Here some comparisons of an excerpt of the Anakin mockup with BSS posted earlier. I think I hear Spitfire, Con Moto and CSS. I preferred 8 and I think it already sounds much better in the full arrangement at the end.

This was the only-BSS version:


----------



## djrustycans

dzilizzi said:


> I'm wondering if it would be worth setting up templates by spaces. So, say a Teledex space template would have the OT libraries as they are, but then add in HWO, Vista, CSS, VSL, etc..., whatever you have, pre setup to sound like they are in Teledex, with the EQ and reverb all done. Then just write with whatever sounds good? Do templates for maybe 3 or 4 spaces? Maybe it is too much work. But once done, you are set.
> 
> I don't know if this is possible though. I just hear people talking about mixing libraries and how the legato on one is great, but the shorts on this other are perfect. If they sound similar enough, switching between libraries could work. Just a thought.


Nice idea but other than OT and Teldex, I don’t have complete Orchestra libraries for any of the other spaces. This could get expensive


----------



## Bman70

prodigalson said:


> This assumes that people listening on iPads and TVs are the first people to hear the score during it’s production and that the volume level at which its heard at broadcast is the loudest it’ll ever be heard which obviously is not the case. Directors, show runners, producers, score mixers and dub engineers will all hear your mockups and final deliveries a LOT clearer and louder.
> 
> While I wouldn’t suggest the audience cares whether you use BSS or SSS, don’t YOU care? Aren’t YOU listening on good monitors and/or good headphones? Don’t YOU want to enjoy the composing and mixing process by using the most satisfying samples for each particular musical idea? Or do you not care what it sounds like during the production process because at the end of the day, audience might hear it on an ipad?



I almost added a caveat that your "boss," or show producers etc. will probably listen on good equipment (though not the same as your own). Still, it's not likely they would reject the score because CSS has a "darker tone" than HWS. 

Yes, to a certain extent I do care about some subtle difference in string tone, and it's sometimes more inspiring to use something with a particular sound. It's just that I'll ask myself before buying, "Is it a $500 / $1000 caring?" 

There's also the collector aspect. I own a great Taylor acoustic guitar. Would I still like a Martin dreadnought style, as well as a smaller folk bodied version? Of course. But any recording requiring guitar will be satisfying with my Taylor. Beyond that it becomes collecting for the love of guitars... and sometimes with VIs for the love of string sounds. That's different from needing it for the practical aspect of recording.


----------



## Hendrixon

Bman70 said:


> I almost added a caveat that your "boss," or show producers etc. will probably listen on good equipment (though not the same as your own). Still, it's not likely they would reject the score because CSS has a "darker tone" than HWS.
> 
> Yes, to a certain extent I do care about some subtle difference in string tone, and it's sometimes more inspiring to use something with a particular sound. It's just that I'll ask myself before buying, "Is it a $500 / $1000 caring?"
> 
> There's also the collector aspect. I own a great Taylor acoustic guitar. Would I still like a Martin dreadnought style, as well as a smaller folk bodied version? Of course. But any recording requiring guitar will be satisfying with my Taylor. Beyond that it becomes collecting for the love of guitars... and sometimes with VIs for the love of string sounds. That's different from needing it for the practical aspect of recording.


Someone asked me once why I need a 100 watt marshall head for? its overkill...
My answer was that every guitar player must have a 100 watt tube head and a full stack (8x12) set of speakers, because one must always be ready at a moment's notice to play Wembley Stadium.


----------



## Scalms

jbuhler said:


> Thanks! That’s good to know.


sorry, guess I spoke too soon. Every time I load Sine player up it asks me where the new location is. 

Sine can't remember. 

Let me contact OT and figure out how to change library locations the proper way.


----------



## Trash Panda

Hendrixon said:


> Someone asked me once why I need a 100 watt marshall head for? its overkill...
> My answer was that every guitar player must have a 100 watt tube head and a full stack (8x12) set of speakers, because one must always be ready at a moment's notice to play Wembley Stadium.


How else are you supposed to drown out the much less talented bassist, drummer and singer in the 50 person club?


----------



## Kevinside

HWS really...no;no comment


----------



## Aldo_arf

Kevinside said:


> HWS really...no;no comment


You really enjoy writing with ellipsis, do you?


----------



## Kevinside

Did you really listen to HWS... i mean the shorts and the bumpy legatos....


----------



## Aldo_arf

I think I’ll grab BSS with the 40% education discount. 
€330 seems reasonable for my budget.


----------



## Kevinside

wait... i bought it, cause i have the whole berlin series...
And i really like it, but cause of the flaws and bugs; Its not a workhorse library like CSS (I dont like CSS) or HWS or SSS and so on...

Its really a additon to BS for blending... But BSS in this state, is not a complete library like SySPro or HWS or...

Sry OT... This time you rushed the release or is BSS really only intented to be a addition to Berlin Strings? No problem with that, but be honest, what BSS will be for the customers out there...


----------



## Casiquire

Kevinside said:


> wait... i bought it, cause i have the whole berlin series...
> And i really like it, but cause of the flaws and bugs; Its not a workhorse library like CSS (I dont like CSS) or HWS or SSS and so on...
> 
> Its really a additon to BS for blending... But BSS in this state, is not a complete library like SySPro or HWS or...
> 
> Sry OT... This time you rushed the release or is BSS really only intented to be a addition to Berlin Strings? No problem with that, but be honest, what BSS will be for the customers out there...


What makes it feel incomplete to you? Aside from bugs which we can expect to get fixed


----------



## Kevinside

Hmmm i am not sure... Ot is on a Rush... no fixes, always new releases...How long does it take to fix a primary announced feature? called mic merging...

Ot transformed to a Spitfire Audio like compamy... rushed releases and no fixes...
And the problem with BSS... Some Bugs need some ReRecordings or new recordings...Will this happen?

Again i like BSS and tried to use it with a new composition for media production, but it did not work, cause of the fundamental inconcistencies in the legatos and other articulations...


----------



## Bman70

Trash Panda said:


> How else are you supposed to drown out the much less talented bassist, drummer and singer in the 50 person club?


This reminds me of a band I was in. Bass, drums, 2x guitar, fiddle (me). At the start of the set, the volume would be tolerable, but by the end it was an insane wall of sound, because everyone kept nudging their own instrument up to hear themselves over their band members. (Also being drunk.)


----------



## dzilizzi

djrustycans said:


> Nice idea but other than OT and Teldex, I don’t have complete Orchestra libraries for any of the other spaces. This could get expensive


I was thinking of making partial libraries match by making them all sound in the same space. Because maybe you have Hollywood Brass but SSS and BW. And then Cineperc percussion.


----------



## dzilizzi

Scalms said:


> sorry, guess I spoke too soon. Every time I load Sine player up it asks me where the new location is.
> 
> Sine can't remember.
> 
> Let me contact OT and figure out how to change library locations the proper way.


If you find out, let me know too. I'm about ready to email them.


----------



## jbuhler

Casiquire said:


> What makes it feel incomplete to you? Aside from bugs which we can expect to get fixed


Portamento, BSS really needs it. The kinds of lines the library plays well are the kinds of lines that could benefit from it here and there. Some of the legato transitions have a touch (or more) of portamento but it’s not consistent. And molto vibrato, as many have noted.


----------



## Kevinside

No Portamento is interesting for a library which costs 549 Euro excl Tax at the normal price...

but i repeat... OT was on the rush and wanted to release something for the berlin series...at the end of the year... at all cost...


----------



## jbuhler

Kevinside said:


> No Portamento is interesting for a library which costs 549 Euro excl Tax at the normal price...
> 
> but i repeat... OT was on the rush and wanted to release something for the berlin series...at the end of the year... at all cost...


There is no doubt that it was a very rushed release, and I feel like the decision to release it with the announcement was made late. But that said I find the library very useable as is, and it was very useable even before they made the first fix. There are indeed bits of it that you won't be able to use until they fix it, but mostly it's as reliable as any other library I have. Last night I was working on rescoring something I had originally done for HZS, and in the 2:30 of the excerpt the only real issues I encountered were some metallic buzzyness in the first violins when the music was high and loud (which I tamed by turning off the tree mic and removing the top dynamic layer of the first violins), and bad level matching between the main legato and the rapid legato. Oh, and there was one note that for some reason refused to play legato in midi playback (it played fine when playing it in), so I had to substitute pattern legato for that. I didn't encounter any problematic tuning or bad legato intervals in this stretch of music (though I have encountered them at other times).


----------



## holywilly

I don’t think OT record the legato transition, it seems like using the legato system in SINE player.
The legato in BSS just doesn’t sound right.


----------



## jbuhler

holywilly said:


> I don’t think OT record the legato transition, it seems like using the legato system in SINE player.
> The legato in BSS just doesn’t sound right.


There are enough issues with them by pairs, that it's clear that the legato transitions are sampled in whole steps.


----------



## muziksculp

OT's SINE Player uses a new Fluid-Legato system, which according to OT, will ensure that Legato Transitions won't be sticking out (Not Bumpy in our VI-C Lingo). 

So surely they have sampled the Legato Transitions, maybe they need to tweak their Fluid-Legato system ? or something else if users still feel the legatos are still bumpy/not smooth enough.


----------



## Hendrixon

Trash Panda said:


> How else are you supposed to drown out the much less talented bassist, drummer and singer in the 50 person club?


Lets see...

The club owner, the audience, the cars in the street, the near by construction site, my dad's TV volume, the... who I'm I kidding no one can top that TV volume lol

I'm sorry, what's a talented bassist?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Hendrixon said:


> I'm sorry, what's a talented bassist?


----------



## Simon Ravn

Fitz said:


> Unusable? are you kidding? That’s the most absurd thing when you could literally program CC7,c11 to compensate.


Having to do that on every single note change you do in legato lines is insane. I have never experienced that in other libraries. So I assume this WILL be fixed by OT. Again: I really don't understand how this could slip through the testing. This library is meant to get used for getting work done, and it would be extremely annoying and time consuming dealing with this issue all the time. I have faith in OT...


----------



## muziksculp

Simon Ravn said:


> Having to do that on every single note change you do in legato lines is insane. I have never experienced that in other libraries. So I assume this WILL be fixed by OT. Again: I really don't understand how this could slip through the testing. This library is meant to get used for getting work done, and it would be extremely annoying and time consuming dealing with this issue all the time. I have faith in OT...


Hi @Simon Ravn ,

What exactly is the problem you are encountering with the legatos ?


----------



## Simon Ravn

Kevinside said:


> So say hello to Vista...wonderful legato...


Layering BSS + Vista is defnitely something I am going to play with.


----------



## Simon Ravn

Kevinside said:


> Why are all CSS Fans here... I always ask, where does this awful Hiss come from...cheap microphones?
> CSS is badly recorded and nobody seems to realize it?


Huh? How is CSS badly recorded? I noticed you mentioned something about "bad frequencies". Pretty much all libraries have some annoying resonance frequencies that you need to EQ out to some degree. There might be more in CSS but it is not something I have had problems with. It has a different tone, more subdued than may other libraries for sure, though.


----------



## Simon Ravn

muziksculp said:


> Hi @Simon Ravn ,
> 
> What exactly is the problem you are encountering with the legatos ?


Just listen to my example. Massive volume jumps between each note. When the legato interval transitions into the sustain there are huge volume discrepancies. It is not just perceived volume changes, I tried meassuring them even though it wasn't done completely scientific and I think about 1-2.4db was what I saw.

EDIT: There are also some other kinks. They only recorded a "molto espressivo" legato interval it seems, so when you choose "subtle vibtrato" you get molto vib legato intervals fading into poco vibrato samples. I wish they had recorded both but of course some corners have to be cut and I think generally you will use the "molto" variant more so that choice makes some sense.

Here is another MP3:

First - modwheel set to 42, "subtle vibrato" chosen. Still some volume problems along with the vibrato/nonvib issue of course, but not as pronounced as in louder dynamics for sure. Next, MW set to 116, still "subtle vibrato". Notice the lack of vibrato in legato samples also in higher registers and also jumping of volume from legato to sustain. Sustain is generally too loud compared to the legato.

Last - MW still at 116, vibrato at "molto". Here legato samples + sustains fit better, but the volume jumps are still there.


----------



## shawnsingh

Changing the legato transition volume helped immensely. Still some bumps to compensate for manually, but much better.

I'm not saying that the bumps are fine, I do hope that they can be fixed with updates. But in case people are trying to work around them now, legato transition volume can reduce the need for manual bump fixes, give that a try.

For example I think I had reduced legato volume by -3-4 dB for violins 1 on the sustain+LEG patch.


----------



## Nils Neumann

holywilly said:


> I don’t think OT record the legato transition, it seems like using the legato system in SINE player.
> The legato in BSS just doesn’t sound right.


That’s quit a big accusation you pulling out of your hat. They definitely did sample it, even though it’s not to your liking.


----------



## Nils Neumann

One big thing I want to point out that changed with Sine drastically.

It was very hard to update libraries once there where released in Kontakt.
Especially sample changes.

Now with Sine they can easily fix things afterwards as they’re system allows for very easy updates. So I’m still hoping that they work on BSS and iron it out.


----------



## Nils Neumann

I hope they bring in a feature that allows merged mics to get updates too.
Thats a problem they didn’t tackled by now.


----------



## star.keys

Kevinside said:


> Hmmm i am not sure... Ot is on a Rush... no fixes, always new releases...How long does it take to fix a primary announced feature? called mic merging...
> 
> Ot transformed to a Spitfire Audio like compamy... rushed releases and no fixes...
> And the problem with BSS... Some Bugs need some ReRecordings or new recordings...Will this happen?
> 
> Again i like BSS and tried to use it with a new composition for media production, but it did not work, cause of the fundamental inconcistencies in the legatos and other articulations...


Add VSL to this list
This is following the path that Microsoft defined years ago. Release software with bugs and get money. But Microsoft at least keeps releasing patches.


----------



## Simon Ravn

Nils Neumann said:


> I hope they bring in a feature that allows merged mics to get updates to.
> Thats a problem they didn’t tackled by now.


That would not be possible unless they save a log of how you merged the samples and automatically re-applied that when you did the update. I think it makes more sense that we/you just do it again yourself. Who knows what else might have changed, so I think that's the best way. So be sure to store your mix settings for further use.


----------



## Nils Neumann

Simon Ravn said:


> That would not be possible unless they save a log of how you merged the samples and automatically re-applied that when you did the update. I think it makes more sense that we/you just do it again yourself. Who knows what else might have changed, so I think that's the best way. So be sure to store your mix settings for further use.


But it would be easy to implement that theoretical, as you just said, they only would need to create a savelog of what my mic levels and panning where for that merged position. So everytime they add a update that just fixes 2-3 samples I don't have to do all the merging again.

I would be a HUGE time saver in keeping templates up to date with minimal work.


----------



## MGdepp

muziksculp said:


> OT's SINE Player uses a new Fluid-Legato system, which according to OT, will ensure that Legato Transitions won't be sticking out (Not Bumpy in our VI-C Lingo).
> 
> So surely they have sampled the Legato Transitions, maybe they need to tweak their Fluid-Legato system ? or something else if users still feel the legatos are still bumpy/not smooth enough.


Hmmm ... and if they name sine the “quantum player“ you believe they use quantum technology? 

“Fluid legato” is a very catchy advertisement term. What counts is what you hear when you play it. And the BSS legato is indeed unmanageable to handle some situations you throw at it nicely. For MA1 I couldn't hear any significant improvement comparing to the Kontakt version.

Not to say that is an OT-problem! In my SA libraries I find even more of those bumpy transitions.


----------



## Zero&One

Scalms said:


> sorry, guess I spoke too soon. Every time I load Sine player up it asks me where the new location is.
> 
> Sine can't remember.
> 
> Let me contact OT and figure out how to change library locations the proper way.


I done it last night, hoping to sort out my "list order".
Stick them where you want, remove library from cog, add library from + symbol. Bing bang bosh.

Didn't fix my issue though, seems SINE either loads these in release date or purchase. BSS is at the bottom again dammit


----------



## Casiquire

MGdepp said:


> Hmmm ... and if they name sine the “quantum player“ you believe they use quantum technology?
> 
> “Fluid legato” is a very catchy advertisement term. What counts is what you hear when you play it. And the sine legato is indeed unmanageable to handle some situations you throw at it nicely.
> 
> Not to say that is an OT-problem! In my SA libraries I find even more of those bumpy transitions.


I get it but it's a valid point. They wouldn't demonstrate it like that if there wasn't some version of that happening under the hood, so why don't people hear it?


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> They wouldn't demonstrate it like that if there wasn't some version of that happening under the hood, so why don't people hear it?


That's a very good question.

It might be that OT needs to further tweak/fine-tune their SINE Engine's Fluid-Legato system, to make the legato transitions smoother, with less bumpiness, or it could be something else.

Let's see what the next OT update for this library will offer. Also if BSS users are reporting the bumpy legato issues to OT-Support, I'm sure they are going to get some feedback from OT about this, so maybe they can share the feedback on the forum.


----------



## shawnsingh

muziksculp said:


> It might be that OT needs to further tweak/fine-tune their SINE Engine's Fluid-Legato system, to make the legato transitions smoother, with less bumpiness, or it could be something else.



This was my impression/hope as well. It's too much bother to verbalize precisely, but the specifics of how I heard the bumps, and the way the bumps changed/improved when I changed legato transition volume, made me feel like there is some adaptiveness going wrong. So that makes me hopeful it's something related to the Sine adaptive legato algorithm that could be fixed...


----------



## jbuhler

muziksculp said:


> That's a very good question.
> 
> It might be that OT needs to further tweak/fine-tune their SINE Engine's Fluid-Legato system, to make the legato transitions smoother, with less bumpiness, or it could be something else.
> 
> Let's see what the next OT update for this library will offer. Also if BSS users are reporting the bumpy legato issues to OT-Support, I'm sure they are going to get some feedback from OT about this, so maybe they can share the feedback on the forum.


It’s somewhat easier to hear what’s going on if you reduce the legato patch to one dynamic layer, and go through each of the dynamic layers individually. I haven’t tested this carefully yet, but anecdotally I’ve noticed that the crossfades between dynamic layers seem to become bumpier if you remove a dynamic layer, so it seems like there might be some optimization of the four dynamic layers (even so I find for best results I need to reduce the level of the legato transition, especially with the violin I).

The pattern legato patch (without +LEG) can be used as a non-vib sustain, and it’s often worth trying the pattern legato transition on the main or soft sustains when the melodic legato causes issues. I just wish I could get a better handle on what conditions trigger the second legato transition slot on these patches.


----------



## muziksculp

jbuhler said:


> I just wish I could get a better handle on what conditions trigger the second legato transition slot on these patches.


Isn't this controlled by playing 'Speed' ? 

Although there is no threshold setting, or anything to indicate that it is actually 'Speed' that is dictating the switching between the two legato type slots.


----------



## jbuhler

muziksculp said:


> Isn't this controlled by playing 'Speed' ?
> 
> Although there is no threshold setting, or anything to indicate that it is actually 'Speed' that is dictating the switching between the two legato type slots.


One would presume so, but it would be helpful to know the triggering conditions (ETA: e.g. the exact speed threshold), and does it work the same if you fill the second slot with pattern legato? It’s all very opaque.


----------



## muziksculp

jbuhler said:


> One would presume so, but it would be helpful to know the triggering conditions (ETA: e.g. the exact speed threshold), and does it work the same if you fill the second slot with pattern legato? It’s all very opaque.


Yes, I agree.


----------



## Scalms

Just bought BSS. At first I was going to pass based upon the initial luke warm reviews, but I’m glad I didn’t. It has the clearest and most beautiful tone out of all the string libraries I have (which includes CSS, SCS, HZS, among others). It was clearly recorded very well. Tone is the most important variable for me, and while I have only played so far with the cello and violins1, it does not disappoint. Not sure I agree with the consensus that violins1 lack expressiveness, to me they sound very expressive, just not Molto vibrato, which is a breathe of fresh air to have a library without excess vibrato, which to me can often make a library sound synthetic if it’s not done right. I obviously recognize that this is a matter of taste so take my recommendation with a grain of salt, but as far as tone and beauty is concerned, you will not be disappointed with this purchase.

and today’s the last day for the discount, just reminding you!


----------



## muziksculp

Scalms said:


> Just bought BSS. At first I was going to pass based upon the initial luke warm reviews, but I’m glad I didn’t. It has the clearest and most beautiful tone out of all the string libraries I have (which includes CSS, SCS, HZS, among others). It was clearly recorded very well. Tone is the most important variable for me, and while I have only played so far with the cello and violins1, it does not disappoint. Not sure I agree with the consensus that violins1 lack expressiveness, to me they sound very expressive, just not Molto vibrato, which is a breathe of fresh air to have a library without excess vibrato, which to me can often make a library sound synthetic if it’s not done right. I obviously recognize that this is a matter of taste so take my recommendation with a grain of salt, but as far as tone and beauty is concerned, you will not be disappointed with this purchase.
> 
> and today’s the last day for the discount, just reminding you!


*Congrats ! * 

OT-BSS is a wonderful sounding strings library, and it's only bound to get better. 

I'm glad you like the tone of the library, and managed to get it before the end of the Intro pricing. 

With regards to my request for a Molto-Vibrato option/addition for the Violins, and Violas, well.. I really think that if the vibrato amounts are controllable, or can be smoothly crossfaded, then one can add them when needed to taste, actually, when you have i.e. 18 1st violin players, 16 2nd violin players, and 14 Violists (which is the section sizes of BSS), playing with Molto-Vibrato, they are not playing their vibrato in synch (Non-Synchronous). so you are listening to a more fuzzy, more random sounding vibrato, but it adds an emotional, expressive dimension that I find missing in the current vibrato options of BSS. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## djrustycans

Scalms said:


> Just bought BSS. At first I was going to pass based upon the initial luke warm reviews, but I’m glad I didn’t. It has the clearest and most beautiful tone out of all the string libraries I have (which includes CSS, SCS, HZS, among others). It was clearly recorded very well. Tone is the most important variable for me, and while I have only played so far with the cello and violins1, it does not disappoint. Not sure I agree with the consensus that violins1 lack expressiveness, to me they sound very expressive, just not Molto vibrato, which is a breathe of fresh air to have a library without excess vibrato, which to me can often make a library sound synthetic if it’s not done right. I obviously recognize that this is a matter of taste so take my recommendation with a grain of salt, but as far as tone and beauty is concerned, you will not be disappointed with this purchase.
> 
> and today’s the last day for the discount, just reminding you!


Stop - please. I was satisfied with my decision not to buy. Now I’m considering again 🤦🏻‍♂️


----------



## dzilizzi

djrustycans said:


> Stop - please. I was satisfied with my decision not to buy. Now I’m considering again 🤦🏻‍♂️


It is best to walk way and ignore the thread once you decide not to buy. Otherwise you will go back and forth, and tomorrow the regret will set in.....


----------



## djrustycans

dzilizzi said:


> It is best to walk way and ignore the thread once you decide not to buy. Otherwise you will go back and forth, and tomorrow the regret will set in.....


😂. Love how you left that hanging!


----------



## ModalRealist

Hopefully before the intro price goes, anyone have an opinion on this versus Synchron Strings Pro for fast runs/legato figures?


----------



## Scalms

djrustycans said:


> Stop - please. I was satisfied with my decision not to buy. Now I’m considering again 🤦🏻‍♂️


Lol, my bad! Seriously though, there are things that composers value differently, so you may get it and not be thrilled with it. For me I’m looking for clarity of the recording, tone, room, etc, I’m less concerned with glitches, legato issues, articulation choices, etc. 

it was still a tough call for me because I had to forgo a library I had my eye on the last couple of months, so BSS threw me a monkey wrench in my plans.

But I at least wanted to offer my opinion, to others on the fence, that it def sounds better in person when you have the library in front of you. But I’ve only played through like 10% of it so far so maybe tomorrow I’ll change my mind! ( but more than likely not)


----------



## Germain B

I jumped in that last wagon too although I was convinced I'd skip this one... (yeah... we're all pretty naive sometimes.)
Can't wait to play with it !


----------



## muziksculp

Scalms said:


> it was still a tough call for me because I had to forgo a library I had my eye on the last couple of months, so BSS threw me a monkey wrench in my plans.


Which library did you have your eyes on the last couple months ?


----------



## muziksculp

Germain B said:


> I jumped in that last wagon too although I was convinced I'd skip this one... (yeah... we're all pretty naive sometimes.)
> Can't wait to play with it !


Hi @Germain B ,

Congrats & Welcome to the BSS user's club


----------



## Virtuoso

ModalRealist said:


> Hopefully before the intro price goes, anyone have an opinion on this versus Synchron Strings Pro for fast runs/legato figures?


Here's a clip of both (1st violins) - SSP Agile Legato first then BSS Rapid Legato...

View attachment Agile Legato.mp3


----------



## muziksculp

Here is another BSS review posted today :


----------



## ModalRealist

Virtuoso said:


> Here's a clip of both (1st violins) - SSP Agile Legato first then BSS Rapid Legato...
> 
> View attachment Agile Legato.mp3


Thank you so much! I'd forgotten that vi-control was the best place on the internet.


----------



## djrustycans

Scalms said:


> Lol, my bad! Seriously though, there are things that composers value differently, so you may get it and not be thrilled with it. For me I’m looking for clarity of the recording, tone, room, etc, I’m less concerned with glitches, legato issues, articulation choices, etc.
> 
> it was still a tough call for me because I had to forgo a library I had my eye on the last couple of months, so BSS threw me a monkey wrench in my plans.
> 
> But I at least wanted to offer my opinion, to others on the fence, that it def sounds better in person when you have the library in front of you. But I’ve only played through like 10% of it so far so maybe tomorrow I’ll change my mind! ( but more than likely not)


😄. It would get use here even for the shorts. There’s lots to like but the longs and legatos seem better in HS for me (other than lack of release samples in HS). 

In BS Kontakt there are separate legato patches which incorporate the adaptive legato plus strong attacks with higher velocities - is there anything similar?


----------



## djrustycans

muziksculp said:


> Here is another BSS review posted today :



Oh dear.... How long until the sale ends? Is it midnight in Germany?! That would give me 31 minutes..


----------



## Virtuoso

muziksculp said:


> Here is another BSS review posted today :



Interesting. There's a potential issue with BSS that's been bothering me - it's more of a feel thing, but the crossfades between the highest dynamic layers seem quite bumpy. As you move your expression pedal/fader/whatever, there are dead spots where not much happens but then it feels like you're kind of abruptly pushing through into the next level. I don't know how Don is controlling it there, but from 8:25 in that video you can kind of hear how it's far from smooth.

Here's an example with SSP first then BSS - just a straight line for the automation. In the BSS section you get a longish plateau in the middle and then it pushes into the higher two layers quite obviously.

View attachment Dynamic Layers.mp3


----------



## Marsen

Scalms said:


> to me they sound very expressive, just not Molto vibrato, which is a breathe of fresh air to have a library without excess vibrato, which to me can often make a library sound synthetic if it’s not done right.


vibrato is overrated


----------



## muziksculp

Marsen said:


> vibrato is overrated


LOL.. I thought Legato is overrated


----------



## Marsen

muziksculp said:


> LOL.. I thought Legato is overrated


I should have add a 

But seriously, there is a lot of vibrato & portamento out there. Too much for my taste...
and yes: Use some longs!


----------



## Marsen

6 min left here in Germany.
Wallet empty. 
And yes, I´m cool


----------



## Scalms

muziksculp said:


> Which library did you have your eyes on the last couple months ?


OT Strings First chairs! Couple months ago I was on the hunt for a good solo strings library. I have CSSS but have never been totally satisfied with it. CSSS vibrato is very artificial/robotic to me. I got OT Inspire 1/2 a couple years ago and I've always loved the tone of the solo cello/violin in that library. I looked at the Spitfire solo strings but those walkthroughs never quite sat well with me, once again-- slightly odd, fake sounding vibrato. OT First chairs has a beautiful sort of natural tone/vibrato that I liked, and then Berlin series went on sale and that go me hooked into OT Ecosystem! and i was hoping for an expansions sale this past holiday week, but alas, not meant to be, my only hope is they port it over to Sine sooner than later and offer a 30% discount, otherwise it's going to have to wait a little while...


----------



## Casiquire

Marsen said:


> I should have add a
> 
> But seriously, there is a lot of vibrato & portamento out there. Too much for my taste...
> and yes: Use some longs!


I hear your point and i think *more* vibrato is overrated, but vibrato itself is necessary. It's all a matter of how it's carried out. This is why i think the next step in sampling is more lookahead.

For example players take a certain amount of time to lean into and out of vibrato during a note. They tend to deaden their vibrato just before the end of a note. Libraries today can't quite do that and progressive vibrato is fixed; real players adjust depending on how long they're about to hold a note.

To me it's less about MORE vibrato and WIDER vibrato, etc, in which case i agree completely. We already have a lot. To me it's more about that vibrato behaving naturally and reacting to the music


----------



## Hendrixon

Virtuoso said:


> Here's a clip of both (1st violins) - SSP Agile Legato first then BSS Rapid Legato...
> 
> View attachment Agile Legato.mp3


That's a... it makes you think.
If I was OT and heard that clip on a public forum like vi-c?
I would be running back to the drawing board, no food no water no sleep.
Honestly I would be embarrassed


I will never give in to dongles, but man, that SSP is mighty impressive in its programming.
And it's not the first time I heard such clips from SSP.


----------



## JTB

Thanks to all that bought this library and posted their views on it. Thanks for taking a bullet, so rest of us didn't end up with a library that has nasty velocity crossfading, no 'romantic' vibrato and dodgy legato. Thanks again.


----------



## star.keys

Thank you for that latest review for confirming my impressions 😀0


----------



## Beans

Hendrixon said:


> I will never give in to dongles, but man, that SSP is mighty impressive in its programming.
> And it's not the first time I heard such clips from SSP.


It's the VSL way. They're usually spot on within the bounds of what they set out to do and have insanely high quality control.


----------



## Casiquire

Hendrixon said:


> That's a... it makes you think.
> If I was OT and heard that clip on a public forum like vi-c?
> I would be running back to the drawing board, no food no water no sleep.
> Honestly I would be embraced
> 
> 
> I will never give in to dongles, but man, that SSP is mighty impressive in its programming.
> And it's not the first time I heard such clips from SSP.


I agree, SSP sounds far superior


Beans said:


> It's the VSL way. They're usually spot on within the bounds of what they set out to do and have insanely high quality control.


Very true! Just sometimes we the expense of life in the samples. I find that affects their winds least of all of their instruments


----------



## Hendrixon

And "Honestly I would be embraced" should have been "embarrassed"... which is embarrassing
Damn that auto fix option 

And btw, even though I passed on BSS this time, I would be happy to see it sorted out in the future and buy it then.


----------



## Bman70

Glad to see new walkthroughs and demos coming. In my opinion, prospective buyers really need more time to make an informed decision, so having the sale period simultaneous with release isn't ideal. Another few months of users uploading videos and samples, and people will start to know what they're actually buying. So, OT needs to do a Spring Sale on it at 50% off .


----------



## Scalms

dzilizzi said:


> If you find out, let me know too. I'm about ready to email them.





Zero&One said:


> I done it last night, hoping to sort out my "list order".
> Stick them where you want, remove library from cog, add library from + symbol. Bing bang bosh.
> 
> Didn't fix my issue though, seems SINE either loads these in release date or purchase. BSS is at the bottom again dammit



perfect, haven’t tried this yet but will give it a go. I found the OT instructions on this topic here, in case others were curious






Moving Collections to a Different Location - Orchestral Tools Helpdesk


If you want to move SINEplayer instruments to a new location, the fastest way is to delete the respective collection from the Library, move the files and then r




orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com


----------



## Simon Ravn

Hey. I know I was hard on OT for their bumpy legato with volume changes. And I still think that NEEDS to be fixed as well as possible! Just wanted to say after playing more around with it, applying some EQ etc., I am very happy that I bought it! Recording quality seems top notch, as does velocity programming on the shorts!

A couple of more issues:

There are some imaging issues present here too, sadly, but as far as I can tell it is mainly a problem of marcatos being too left-centric in the 1st violins for example. Probably some players on the left giving more than the others. This is where a per-articulation panning setting would come in very handy.

This has been reported by others I think: X-fading in sustains is not even close to giving a linear response. From 0-40-ish it works nicely, then hardly anything happens until 60. 60-85 again is nice, then not much happens from 85 to about 110. This should also be adressed. Makes it hard to do smooth sustained lines. This is with default volume range setting.


----------



## djrustycans

Simon Ravn said:


> Hey. I know I was hard on OT for their bumpy legato with volume changes. And I still think that NEEDS to be fixed as well as possible! Just wanted to say after playing more around with it, applying some EQ etc., I am very happy that I bought it! Recording quality seems top notch.
> 
> There are some imagine issues present here too, sadly, but as far as I can tell it is mainly a problem of marcatos being too left-centric in the 1st violins for example. Probably some players on the left giving more than the others. This is where a per-articulation panning setting would come in very handy.


Too late - I’ve missed the sale!! 😩


----------



## Simon Ravn

djrustycans said:


> Too late - I’ve missed the sale!! 😩


I think it'll be worth it without sale price. But personally I only buy libraries that are not on sale when I think I need them for a particular project.


----------



## Hendrixon

djrustycans said:


> Too late - I’ve missed the sale!! 😩


You mean 52 pages of discussion weren't enough of a reminder? lol


----------



## djrustycans

Simon Ravn said:


> I think it'll be worth it without sale price. But personally I only buy libraries that are not on sale when I think I need them for a particular project.


The crossgrade price is the same as intro! Relieved - will definitely jump on this sooner rather than later.


----------



## axb312

Kevinside said:


> Why are all CSS Fans here... I always ask, where does this awful Hiss come from...cheap microphones?
> CSS is badly recorded and nobody seems to realize it?
> 
> SSS is wonderful in comparsion, but you have to deal with the lyndhurst hall... So its very wet even using the close mics, but it sounds wonderfull for a big Strings combination...
> 
> BSS has flaws, bugs...but the tone is great and the recordings are well done...
> 
> CSS has really some frequency issues, which are the same with CSSS and CSB...
> Does nobody hear that?....



The Cinematic Series is not the best recorded series, also not in such a great space.

However, it can't be beat for uniformity, ease of use and volume balancing.

Sounds pretty good out of the box, is easy to use and the few problems can be sorted out with some mixing. Whats not to like?


----------



## djrustycans

Hendrixon said:


> You mean 52 pages of discussion weren't enough of a reminder? lol


I was waiting for page 53..


----------



## Simon Ravn

After my first real test drive my main problems with the library is:

- You can't control volume of releases. And sometimes they are intrusive. Too loud or too low or too... different. Of course you can turn them off, but... As heard in violas in this example. They were hard to get a nice "let go" on.
- Vibrato missing in 1st violins for everything but the ff layer. This is very evident in this short test. As soon as you go into mf-mp territory I miss vibrato. The other sections fare better here, especially violas+cellos. An additional recording of mp + f layers with more vibrato for 1st (and possibly 2nd) vlns would improve this library so much!
- Legato bumps... You can adjust the legato volume which can help to some extent. But since the volume isn't the same on each legato/sustain, it is a compromise.
- Dynamic range is not affected well by modwheel. You have to really do some drawing work after you play it in to make it sound like you played it. This will hopefully be improved.

Apart from that there's a great deal to like about the library! Warm and full tone, good consistency between sections, great programming on the shorts especially.


----------



## djrustycans

Nice writing! Thanks also for posting some informative feedback. I think the releases and the expression/dynamic range sound like the biggest issue here. The tone is lovely as you said. The cutoff/release at 11-12 secs and in a couple of places sounds a bit unnatural but sounds fine at the end. Maybe that’s a CC thing?
Were you using ‘Niente’ patches?


----------



## stargazer

Simon Ravn said:


> After my first real test drive my main problems with the library is:
> 
> - You can't control volume of releases. And sometimes they are intrusive. Too loud or too low or too... different. Of course you can turn them off, but... As heard in violas in this example. They were hard to get a nice "let go" on.
> - Vibrato missing in 1st violins for everything but the ff layer. This is very evident in this short test. As soon as you go into mf-mp territory I miss vibrato. The other sections fare better here, especially violas+cellos. An additional recording of mp + f layers with more vibrato for 1st (and possibly 2nd) vlns would improve this library so much!
> - Legato bumps... You can adjust the legato volume which can help to some extent. But since the volume isn't the same on each legato/sustain, it is a compromise.
> - Dynamic range is not affected well by modwheel. You have to really do some drawing work after you play it in to make it sound like you played it. This will hopefully be improved.
> 
> Apart from that there's a great deal to like about the library! Warm and full tone, good consistency between sections, great programming on the shorts especially.


Sounds great, Simon! Good to hear BSS in the hands of someone knowledgeable.


----------



## Simon Ravn

djrustycans said:


> Nice writing! Thanks also for posting some informative feedback. I think the releases and the expression/dynamic range sound like the biggest issue here. The tone is lovely as you said. The cutoff/release at 11-12 secs and in a couple of places sounds a bit unnatural but sounds fine at the end. Maybe that’s a CC thing?
> Were you using ‘Niente’ patches?



Thanks No, I tried the "niente", but I thought that made the dynamic problems worse. I might give it another try though. I adjusted the volume range though to about 1/5th up (from zero) to increase the dynamic range of the instruments.


----------



## dcoscina

Just downloaded last night and had a quick play through. Initial thoughts- nice tone. Celli are gorgeous but after all of the comments about the violins, I didn't have high expectations and I must say they are very nice. My initial observation about the synthy quality is this- individually, each section sounds very good. Something about layering them, especially Vl 1 and 2 seems to create that effect that has been described as "synthy". I don't know why this would be but I need to dig deeper. However, I must say I'm pleasantly surprised with the over all tone and programming thus far. 

Disclaimer- This is a review copy I received from OT for a product review for FSM


----------



## dcoscina

Simon Ravn said:


> After my first real test drive my main problems with the library is:
> 
> - You can't control volume of releases. And sometimes they are intrusive. Too loud or too low or too... different. Of course you can turn them off, but... As heard in violas in this example. They were hard to get a nice "let go" on.
> - Vibrato missing in 1st violins for everything but the ff layer. This is very evident in this short test. As soon as you go into mf-mp territory I miss vibrato. The other sections fare better here, especially violas+cellos. An additional recording of mp + f layers with more vibrato for 1st (and possibly 2nd) vlns would improve this library so much!
> - Legato bumps... You can adjust the legato volume which can help to some extent. But since the volume isn't the same on each legato/sustain, it is a compromise.
> - Dynamic range is not affected well by modwheel. You have to really do some drawing work after you play it in to make it sound like you played it. This will hopefully be improved.
> 
> Apart from that there's a great deal to like about the library! Warm and full tone, good consistency between sections, great programming on the shorts especially.


Nice demo Simon. Always dig your music though, so I'm not surprised. Great organic feel and tone.


----------



## G_Erland

Hello all,

Just set up BSS with Studio Ones keyswitching system today. I realized with an instance of SINE loaded with all the articulations of an instrument, I cant activate legato on the «non legato» articulations. Button goes white indicating legato is activated but articulation remains polyphonic. Would this be expected behaviour, I wonder?


----------



## jbuhler

Simon Ravn said:


> Vibrato missing in 1st violins for everything but the ff layer. This is very evident in this short test. As soon as you go into mf-mp territory I miss vibrato. The other sections fare better here, especially violas+cellos. An additional recording of mp + f layers with more vibrato for 1st (and possibly 2nd) vlns would improve this library so much!


I wouldn't say it's missing just diminished. If you compare the layers of pattern legato at each dynamic layer with those in the sustains, you will hear (some) vibrato on each layer of the sustain. Whether it's enough vibrato is another question. I agree about the lack of evenness with the vibrato and also how the middle of the dynamic range doesn't give much change in intensity so it feels like there's this whole swatch of dynamics that is missing before you get to the top dynamic layer. 

If you disable the ff dynamic layer, I find there's a bit more evenness for some reason, just a small dip moving from the mp dynamic layer to the f dynamic layer during the crossfade, whereas with all four dynamic layers it feels like the whole f layer basically gets lost (or the volume level is set too low). I find the smoothest modwheel dynamics on a single pitch occur if you disable the f layer. But the instrument in that state is unplayable if you change notes, so it's a non-starter. 

Did you try adjusting the length and curve of the releases in the ENV tab? 



G_Erland said:


> Just set up BSS with Studio Ones keyswitching system today. I realized with an instance of SINE loaded with all the articulations of an instrument, I cant activate legato on the «non legato» articulations. Button goes white indicating legato is activated but articulation remains polyphonic. Would this be expected behaviour, I wonder?


If you want to activate it by keyswitch you need to create a second instance of the articulation (say marcato long), one with legato, the other without. (Just drag over the articulation from the library.)


----------



## G_Erland

jbuhler said:


> I wouldn't say it's missing just diminished. If you compare the layers of pattern legato at each dynamic layer with those in the sustains, you will hear (some) vibrato on each layer of the sustain. Whether it's enough vibrato is another question. I agree about the lack of evenness with the vibrato and also how the middle of the dynamic range doesn't give much change in intensity so it feels like there's this whole swatch of dynamics that is missing before you get to the top dynamic layer.
> 
> If you disable the ff dynamic layer, I find there's a bit more evenness for some reason, just a small dip moving from the mp dynamic layer to the f dynamic layer during the crossfade, whereas with all four dynamic layers it feels like the whole f layer basically gets lost (or the volume level is set too low). I find the smoothest modwheel dynamics on a single pitch occur if you disable the f layer. But the instrument in that state is unplayable if you change notes, so it's a non-starter.
> 
> Did you try adjusting the length and curve of the releases in the ENV tab?
> 
> 
> If you want to activate it by keyswitch you need to create a second instance of the articulation (say marcato long), one with legato, the other without. (Just drag over the articulation from the library.)


Wow, you can do that? Ha ha, never crossed my mind. Thank you!


----------



## Simon Ravn

jbuhler said:


> I wouldn't say it's missing just diminished. If you compare the layers of pattern legato at each dynamic layer with those in the sustains, you will hear (some) vibrato on each layer of the sustain. Whether it's enough vibrato is another question. I agree about the lack of evenness with the vibrato and also how the middle of the dynamic range doesn't give much change in intensity so it feels like there's this whole swatch of dynamics that is missing before you get to the top dynamic layer.
> 
> If you disable the ff dynamic layer, I find there's a bit more evenness for some reason, just a small dip moving from the mp dynamic layer to the f dynamic layer during the crossfade, whereas with all four dynamic layers it feels like the whole f layer basically gets lost (or the volume level is set too low). I find the smoothest modwheel dynamics on a single pitch occur if you disable the f layer. But the instrument in that state is unplayable if you change notes, so it's a non-starter.
> 
> Did you try adjusting the length and curve of the releases in the ENV tab?
> 
> 
> If you want to activate it by keyswitch you need to create a second instance of the articulation (say marcato long), one with legato, the other without. (Just drag over the articulation from the library.)



Yes, I adjusted release env's in this example. I also tried removing the ff layer to see if that made much difference. I don't think it helped that much and I would miss out on the "best vibrato layer" on the violins especially by doing so, so I kept it in. FF layer kicks in fairly early, I think around 80 or so.


----------



## djrustycans

Are there any pre-made legato patches which make use of the different attacks like the individual legato articulation for Berlin Strings in Kontakt? E.g. Playing higher velocity triggers stronger attacks. 

Or is this something you have to set up yourself in Sine?

I find these patches are expressive and really handy for general usage.


----------



## muziksculp

djrustycans said:


> Are there any pre-made legato patches which make use of the different attacks like the individual legato articulation for Berlin Strings in Kontakt? E.g. Playing higher velocity triggers stronger attacks.
> 
> Or is this something you have to set up yourself in Sine?
> 
> I find these patches are expressive and really handy for general usage.


I think besides the three types of legatos they offer, there are no pre-made legato patches that use other articulations i.e. that can be triggered at higher velocities, or crossfaded via CC, so there is a lot of room to experiment with this library.


----------



## djrustycans

muziksculp said:


> I think besides the three types of legatos they offer, there are no pre-made legato patches that use other articulations i.e. that can be triggered at higher velocities, or crossfaded via CC, so there is a lot of room to experiment with this library.


Ok, thanks - so presumably you would be able to set up similar patches utilising sustain soft/imm/hard with legato transitions enabled.. Actually, do they have these three attack variations in BSS?


----------



## muziksculp

djrustycans said:


> Ok, thanks - so presumably you would be able to set up similar patches utilising sustain soft/imm/hard with legato transitions enabled.. Actually, do they have these three attack variations in BSS?


Besides the three types of Legatos in BSS, (Melodic, Rapid, Pattern). 

They have Three types of Sustains in BSS (Sustains, Sustains-Soft, Sustains-Accented). 

Here is a pic of the Vlns 1 presets :


----------



## djrustycans

muziksculp said:


> Besides the three types of Legatos in BSS, (Melodic, Rapid, Pattern).
> 
> They have Three types of Sustains in BSS (Sustains, Sustains-Soft, Sustains-Accented).
> 
> Here is a pic of the Vlns 1 presets :


Thanks for this - but one question. How are the legato transitions when used with the three sustain types? Do they sound convincing?


----------



## muziksculp

djrustycans said:


> Thanks for this - but one question. How are the legato transitions when used with the three sustain types? Do they sound convincing?


That's a good question. 

I will have to test these Sustains with Legato enabled, I haven't tried doing that yet. I just used the Legato Presets.


----------



## djrustycans

Thank you - I'm getting closer to pulling the trigger on this!


----------



## jbuhler

muziksculp said:


> That's a good question.
> 
> I will have to test these Sustains with Legato enabled, I haven't tried doing that yet. I just used the Legato Presets.


The two marcatos (short and long) can also have legatos attached to them, and the badly named "rapid legato" and "pattern legato" sustains, which are not in fact legato, can have legatos other than their namesake attached to them (though the latter two do not have a slot for a secondary legato). Trills and trems also allow legato transitions, but those transitions won't be generally useful, since the trill and the trem is necessarily suspended for the length of the legato transition.


----------



## djrustycans

jbuhler said:


> The two marcatos (short and long) can also have legatos attached to them, and the badly named "rapid legato" and "pattern legato" sustains, which are not in fact legato, can have legatos other than their namesake attached to them (though the latter two do not have a slot for a secondary legato). Trills and trems also allow legato transitions, but those transitions won't be generally useful, since the trill and the trem is necessarily suspended for the length of the legato transition.


Great. In practice, can the sustains with different attack strengths be used with legato transitions so that they work as convincingly as Berlin Strings Adaptive Legato patches?

I’ve not seen any of this in use and it’s an important feature for me!

Ideally, I’d build a legato patch with sus soft, normal and accented switched with velocity but if the legato transitions sound a bit dodgy with the normal sustains, it might not be that useful.


----------



## jbuhler

djrustycans said:


> Great. In practice, can the sustains with different attack strengths be used with legato transitions so that they work as convincingly as Berlin Strings Adaptive Legato patches?
> 
> I’ve not seen any of this in use and it’s an important feature for me!
> 
> Ideally, I’d build a legato patch with sus soft, normal and accented switched with velocity but if the legato transitions sound a bit dodgy with the normal sustains, it might not be that useful.


The legatos of BSS feel different to me than those of BS. I haven’t got along that well with the BS legatos, and the BSS legatos aren’t perfect, but I find them less fussy than those in BS. At the same time the BSS legatos feel bumpy, or rather, the f layer in the sustains doesn’t feel well integrated into the dynamic profile to me, so it’s like the patch doesn’t increase in dynamic while crossing the f layer. But the legato works well with the marcato long and the accented sustain. Personally I don’t have that much issue with the legato transitions themselves aside from them needing to be reduced in volume a bit.


----------



## djrustycans

jbuhler said:


> The legatos of BSS feel different to me than those of BS. I haven’t got along that well with the BS legatos, and the BSS legatos aren’t perfect, but I find them less fussy than those in BS. At the same time the BSS legatos feel bumpy, or rather, the f layer in the sustains doesn’t feel well integrated into the dynamic profile to me, so it’s like the patch doesn’t increase in dynamic while crossing the f layer. But the legato works well with the marcato long and the accented sustain. Personally I don’t have that much issue with the legato transitions themselves aside from them needing to be reduced in volume a bit.


Thanks. Hopefully they’ll iron out the kinks.
Just bought it last night so will install today!


----------



## djrustycans

Well.... Only had a short amount of time with BSS but there’s ‘lots’ to like here. I think it’s been good to approach this library fearing the worst which means I’m pleasantly surprised!

To those with dynamic range issues, have you fiddled with the volume range slider - this seemed to help create a larger dynamic range for me with the mod wheel.

The shorts are generally great and have good dynamic range and articulation at low velocities- will be using these a lot!

For my taste, the vibrato choices out of the two sustains are great for general work and harmonic/chordal support but like others have mentioned - with the violins, you’d expect something a little more ‘molto’ for soaring melodic work.

Some of the legato transitions are nice and slow and good for emotive work but they’re not consistent even within the same patch - this is surprising, given how the melodic legato has been marketed! This area definitely needs work!

The short Marcatos are nice and lively but I feel the Long Marcatos are a bit straight and lacking expression.

What strikes me is how detailed these strings sound for larger sections - pretty incredible. You can sometimes hear individual players even without the section leader mics

I made some quick ensemble patches for sustain soft/spicc sketching and they sound superb - nowhere near as mushy as other large string libraries. 

Why didn’t OT provide this for us???!!

The rapid legato sounds ok to me but I’d definitely layer some other articulations with it to add extra blurriness.

All in all, extremely happy so far but I’m not afraid of a programming challenge.

Looking forward to seeing how this library evolves and getting to work on creating some custom articulations.

Thanks to all for answering my questions and providing pre-purchase info on the library 😊


----------



## muziksculp

djrustycans said:


> I made some quick ensemble patches for sustain soft/spicc sketching and they sound superb - nowhere near as mushy as other large string libraries.
> 
> Why didn’t OT provide this for us???!!


I think the lack of more creative layered programs in this library is a proof that OT was rushing the release, I think if they had taken their time to release it this year, they would have added more, and possibly had less to fix/improve at release.


----------



## djrustycans

muziksculp said:


> I think the lack of more creative layered programs in this library is a proof that OT was rushing the release, I think if they had taken their time to release it this year, they would have added more, and possibly had less to fix/improve at release.


Maybe - it seems that with Sine releases, they’re leaving it to the end user to create what they need from the available articulations. Wouldn’t do any harm for them to give us some options - I don’t think you can create something as polished as their BS adaptive legato patches, using Sustain articulations with legato enabled in Sine. 

I tried quickly and the Sustain Soft with legato gave some quirky results. I’ll try and make a velocity sensitive sus legato patch with all 3 later on.


----------



## muziksculp

I wonder when OT will release Berlin Strings in SINE format ? 

I'm really looking forward to have both BSS, and BS in SINE.


----------



## djrustycans

muziksculp said:


> I wonder when OT will release Berlin Strings in SINE format ?
> 
> I'm really looking forward to have both BSS, and BS in SINE.


Might be a little while yet - maybe we’ll see Brass with the new FF dynamic layer first. From a business perspective, that might bring in more customers.

Would be great though, especially if they can sort the Violins 1 shorts - they’re really odd sounding and inconsistent compared to the violins II. Chopped off attacks and machine gun spiccatos - can’t believe the difference!


----------



## jbuhler

I heard from OT support today that another update fixing a bunch of issues is due out very soon.


----------



## djrustycans

jbuhler said:


> I heard from OT support today that another update fixing a bunch of issues is due out very soon.


That’s brilliant news 👍🏻


----------



## djrustycans

jbuhler said:


> I heard from OT support today that another update fixing a bunch of issues is due out very soon.


Just to re-iterate I was talking about inconsistencies between the Berlin Strings Shorts not Symphonic Strings!


----------



## muziksculp

jbuhler said:


> I heard from OT support today that another update fixing a bunch of issues is due out very soon.


I'm guessing you mean this is for BSS.


----------



## jbuhler

muziksculp said:


> I'm guessing you mean this is for BSS.


Yes, an update for BSS is due out soon. I wouldn't expect any updates for BS until they port it to Sine.


----------



## shawnsingh

In some way, the violins 1 not being as "molto anything" could be a blessing in disguise. There's a much richer choice of expressive possibilities when layering a few solo or chamber violins on top from another library. As opposed to having deep espressivo baked in that may only be a one-trick sound.


----------



## djrustycans

I think this library could be absolutely superb with some fine tuning.

Spiccatos are absolutely excellent. The Celli and Viola legatos sound superb so far and really expressive.

Violins 1 I also like but the legato isn’t as lyrical as the Celli for example. Would be so good to have that option on all sections.

I started a quick folk style string piece and it’s been a little fiddly so far to get the Violins 1 to play with smooth transitions, especially with standard vibrato at lower dynamic levels. But the results, tonally are so impressive - excited by the prospects. I’m making use of the volume range slider a lot (50%) and turning the patch volume up quite a bit so there’s a much higher dynamic range - seems to work pretty well.


----------



## djrustycans

Had a go at a simple folk style thing - my first play with BSS. Added 2 Horns from Berlin Brass and tucked in a Solo Violin from CSSS! Very happy with BSS in general.


----------



## muziksculp

shawnsingh said:


> In some way, the violins 1 not being as "molto anything" could be a blessing in disguise. There's a much richer choice of expressive possibilities when layering a few solo or chamber violins on top from another library. As opposed to having deep espressivo baked in that may only be a one-trick sound.


I'm not sure why you say that.

imho. it would be very useful to have a Molto-Vibrato Vlns 1, and even Vlns 2 option.

It's just an additional option, you can use it if you like to, instead of using a second library to do that job.

What I would like to see is to have control over the amount of Vibrato in the Molto-Vibrato patch, that would make it totally tweakable, and be dynamically edited in melodic lines to taste i.e. faded in and out as needed via CC. , rather than having a constant Molto-Vibrato. This will add so much more emotion, and realism to lyrical/romantic type melodic vlns phrsaes, especially at the higher ranges.


----------



## shawnsingh

muziksculp said:


> I'm not sure why you say that.
> 
> imho. it would be very useful to have a Molto-Vibrato Vlns 1, and even Vlns 2 option.
> 
> It's just an additional option, you can use it if you like to, instead of using a second library to do that job.
> 
> What I would like to see is to have control over the amount of Vibrato in the Molto-Vibrato patch, that would make it totally tweakable, and be dynamically edited in melodic lines to taste i.e. faded in and out as needed via CC. , rather than having a constant Molto-Vibrato. This will add so much more emotion, and realism to lyrical/romantic type melodic vlns phrsaes, especially at the higher ranges.



Originally I was responding to the idea of making the existing melodic legato patch more vibrato/espressivo. But I think your perspective could be even better, to have a separate molto vibrato and options to control xfading them.

I would love if OT facilitated xfading vibrato a well as dynamics in one patch. But for symphonic strings I wonder if that may sound too diffuse and lose detail - in addition to two layers playing at the same time due to dynamics xfading, vibrato xfading would add two more.

I feel like hollywood orchestra is the nicest workflow of the libraries I've worked with - velocity controlled marcato/accent layer, and 2 dimensions of CC for dynamics and vibrato. It's possible to do something similar with capsule but it's not clear that we can do that with Sine yet. Also for some reason I can't remember, my template doesn't do vibrato xfading on legato, I only set it up on sustain patches for Berlin strings. Still, doing that sounds phenomenal so I hope it's on their radar to make it easier to have 2 or more dimensions of xfading in Sine!


----------



## muziksculp

Hi @shawnsingh,

In the event that OT does not offer a Molto-Vibrato option for V1 & V2 for BSS in the future, what library would you use to layer with BSS for that Passionate, multi-vibrato Vls sound ? 

I was thinking VSL Appassionata Strings would be one option. Actually, I'm thinking about upgrading my Appassionata VI version to the Synchronized version. But that's a different topic  

Thanks,
Muziksculp


----------



## muziksculp

Here is a very nice sounding demo of BSS I came across on YouTube :


----------



## Kevinside

There are some string libraries out there, which are providing molto vibrato...choose one of them...


----------



## muziksculp

Kevinside said:


> There are some string libraries out there, which are providing molto vibrato...choose one of them...


Which ones were you thinking of ?


----------



## novaburst

muziksculp said:


> Which ones were you thinking of ?


Hi @muziksculp 

You have a String of library's you can choose


----------



## muziksculp

novaburst said:


> Hi @muziksculp
> 
> You have a String of library's you can choose


That's true, I'm sure I will find a few that will work, but then again, I wouldn't mind it if I didn't have to layer another library with BSS to achieve a more lyrical/emotional vibrato phrase when using Vls 1 / Vls 2 . (i.e. 8Dio's Adagio/Anthology, VSL Appassionata Strings, Spitfire Symphonic Strings, VSL Synchron Strings Pro, ...etc. )


----------



## shawnsingh

muziksculp said:


> Hi @shawnsingh,
> 
> In the event that OT does not offer a Molto-Vibrato option for V1 & V2 for BSS in the future, what library would you use to layer with BSS for that Passionate, multi-vibrato Vls sound ?
> 
> I was thinking VSL Appassionata Strings would be one option. Actually, I'm thinking about upgrading my Appassionata VI version to the Synchronized version. But that's a different topic
> 
> Thanks,
> Muziksculp


Going to be occupied with other work this week, I'll try to reply after that. I can experiment with layering some of the libraries I have and attach examples here.


----------



## shawnsingh

OK, @muziksculp I made an example and uploaded it to Google Drive. I posted about it separately here: https://vi-control.net/community/th...eriments-for-expressive-violin-legato.104776/

Anyone is welcome to download the stems and try mixing their own layers on it too. Would be interesting to hear the outcome if anyone tries that.

For me, the conclusion is: if the "anemic" violins 1 legato is the only reason that you're not sold on this library, please do try downloading my layering experiment, and try layering with libraries you have, to see if it suits you. For me, layering with AudioModeling/SampleModeling, or layering with Berlin Strings strong vibrato - both were very reasonable to fill in a bit of strength and vibrato in the legato violins.

Comments and feedback welcome!


----------



## muziksculp

shawnsingh said:


> OK, @muziksculp I made an example and uploaded it to Google Drive. I posted about it separately here: https://vi-control.net/community/th...eriments-for-expressive-violin-legato.104776/
> 
> Anyone is welcome to download the stems and try mixing their own layers on it too. Would be interesting to hear the outcome if anyone tries that.
> 
> For me, the conclusion is: if the "anemic" violins 1 legato is the only reason that you're not sold on this library, please do try downloading my layering experiment, and try layering with libraries you have, to see if it suits you. For me, layering with AudioModeling/SampleModeling, or layering with Berlin Strings strong vibrato - both were very reasonable to fill in a bit of strength and vibrato in the legato violins.
> 
> Comments and feedback welcome!


Hi @shawnsingh ,

Thank You Very much for doing these layering tests. I will audition them later today. This is very useful info.

I tried layering the VSL Synchronized Appassionata Strings Violins with BSS First Violins, using the Appssionata molto Vibrato violins. The result was very nice, and actually the combination created a very full sounding first violin section with more emotional playing style. If you have VSL Sycnronized Appssionata Strings, or the VI version of Appass. Strings, give it a try.

I will try using some of the libraries you used for the layering as well.

I'm also hoping that OT will update BSS, and maybe offer a more expressive first violin option in the future.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## muziksculp

Hi,

I decided to do a little more experimenting with BSS First Violins Legato-Sustain set to the Expressive Vibrato option. 

I recalled that I never tested how it sounds when all mics are enabled and boosted up to a reasonable level. I was surprised how much better, fuller, they sounded, and the vibrato was more present compared to when I used less mics, i.e. only two mics. 

If you are a BSS user, give this a try, and let us know what you think when using all the mics for a nice expressive/emotional and more animated legato vlns 1 sound. 

Here is how my Vlns 1 Mics Mix looks, I also added a small amount of high-quality Algorithmic reverb around 2.6 seconds of RT which added the type of sound I'm trying to create. 

Looking forward to the Update for BSS, hopefully soon.

This patch with all mics consumes 3.5 GB of RAM, so it would make it much more usable if I could have merged these mics into a custom mic preset, but that needs to be fixed, since it is buggy at this time. 





Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## shawnsingh

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> I decided to do a little more experimenting with BSS First Violins Legato-Sustain set to the Expressive Vibrato option.
> 
> I recalled that I never tested how it sounds when all mics are enabled and boosted up to a reasonable level. I was surprised how much better, fuller, they sounded, and the vibrato was more present compared to when I used less mics, i.e. only two mics.
> 
> If you are a BSS user, give this a try, and let us know what you think when using all the mics for a nice expressive/emotional and more animated legato vlns 1 sound.
> 
> Here is how my Vlns 1 Mics Mix looks, I also added a small amount of high-quality Algorithmic reverb around 2.6 seconds of RT which added the type of sound I'm trying to create.
> 
> Looking forward to the Update for BSS, hopefully soon.
> 
> This patch with all mics consumes 3.5 GB of RAM, so it would make it much more usable if I could have merged these mics into a custom mic preset, but that needs to be fixed, since it is buggy at this time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Muziksculp


By chance if you have time, would you be willing to upload an example of your mic mix? I could send you the MIDI for my example if you like.

The BSS mic mix I used in my layering tests was approximately +2-3 dB leader, 0 dB Outrigger, -3-4 dB Tree.


----------



## muziksculp

shawnsingh said:


> By chance if you have time, would you be willing to upload an example of your mic mix?


Yes, sure can. I will post something tomorrow. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## daviddln

Hi
I've purchased the library today. When I load an instrument, it takes at least 40 seconds to load all the articulations. Is it normal? I've stored all the samples on a SSD.


----------



## Evans

daviddln said:


> Hi
> I've purchased the library today. When I load an instrument, it takes at least 40 seconds to load all the articulations. Is it normal? I've stored all the samples on a SSD.


Just did some quick tests:

*BSS Violins 1 *all artics for two mic positions loaded in 20 seconds
*BSS Celli *all artics for two mic positions loaded in 19 seconds (pretty consistent!)
For comparison

JXL Brass Trumpets a3 all artics for one mic position loaded in seven seconds
CSB 2 Trombones Mix mic all artics loaded in ~1 second
From an external SSD via USB 3.1.


----------



## daviddln

Evans said:


> Just did some quick tests:
> 
> *BSS Violins 1 *all artics for two mic positions loaded in 20 seconds
> *BSS Celli *all artics for two mic positions loaded in 19 seconds (pretty consistent!)
> For comparison
> 
> JXL Brass Trumpets a3 all artics for one mic position loaded in seven seconds
> CSB 2 Trombones Mix mic all artics loaded in ~1 second
> From an external SSD via USB 3.1.



Thank you. It's weird, it takes me 40 seconds to load BSS Violins I (2 mic positions) and also 30 seconds for the Solo Violin (2 mic positions) from Tableau Solo Strings. 12 seconds for the Solo Trombone from JXL Brass.


----------



## Evans

daviddln said:


> Thank you. It's weird, it takes me 40 seconds to load BSS Violins I (2 mic positions) and also 30 seconds for the Solo Violin (2 mic positions) from Tableau Solo Strings. 12 seconds for the Solo Trombone from JXL Brass.


For what it's worth, sometimes SINE will flat out hard freeze on me on a load unless I'm running it from VEPro.


----------



## Evans

Is there an informal list of all BSS bugs known by VI-C members? I was just mucking about with Celli Legato near the top of its range and have an odd transition from B up to F.


----------



## Virtuoso

daviddln said:


> Hi
> I've purchased the library today. When I load an instrument, it takes at least 40 seconds to load all the articulations. Is it normal? I've stored all the samples on a SSD.


Each BSS section with all articulations takes 16-17 seconds to load here from an internal NVMe SSD, except the basses which take 5 seconds.


----------



## Virtuoso

Evans said:


> Is there an informal list of all BSS bugs known by VI-C members? I was just mucking about with Celli Legato near the top of its range and have an odd transition from B up to F.


Same here - it overshoots by a semitone and then comes back down. Maybe they accidentally copy and pasted the scripting from the upcoming Monty Norman Drama Toolkit?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Computers are weird. 

Takes me longer to open the UI an instance of Kontakt that's already loaded than some people take to load CSB trombones. 

Meanwhile, 20 seconds seems like an eternity to load anything on sine, it's pretty snappy on both of my machines.


----------



## muziksculp

Hi,

Here is a short demo with BSS Vlns 1 Legatos using all Mics, and quite exposed so you can hear that they sound quite full, and expressive, with a nice thick texture resulting from the expressive vibrato setting. I noticed that if I use less mics, i.e. 2 of the available mics, or even 3, it doesn't have the same feel, or impact as when using all the mics. 

The Piano in the arrangement is the OT Vivid-Keys Cinematic Piano, without the Pad sound. I used Algorithmic Reverb on all of the Instruments, a bit of EQ, and the Sonnox Oxford Limiter on the Master Bus. 

I also added a little bit of additional harmony voice using the BSS Violas Legatos. But kept the volume relatively low, so it doesn't over power or distract from evaluating the way VLNS 1 sound. 

My Conclusion: I wouldn't mind if the Vlns 1 & 2 were played with a bit more vibrato in BSS, but the result I got is good enough when I enable all mics, I think the other option is layering other Libraries. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## novaburst

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> Here is a short demo with BSS Vlns 1 Legatos using all Mics, and quite exposed so you can hear that they sound quite full, and expressive, with a nice thick texture resulting from the expressive vibrato setting. I noticed that if I use less mics, i.e. 2 of the available mics, or even 3, it doesn't have the same feel, or impact as when using all the mics.
> 
> The Piano in the arrangement is the OT Vivid-Keys Cinematic Piano, without the Pad sound. I used Algorithmic Reverb on all of the Instruments, a bit of EQ, and the Sonnox Oxford Limiter on the Master Bus.
> 
> I also added a little bit of additional harmony voice using the BSS Violas Legatos. But kept the volume relatively low, so it doesn't over power or distract from evaluating the way VLNS 1 sound.
> 
> My Conclusion: I wouldn't mind if the Vlns 1 & 2 were played with a bit more vibrato in BSS, but the result I got is good enough when I enable all mics, I think the other option is layering other Libraries.
> 
> Cheers,
> Muziksculp


I think this is the secret if you like, is to use as much mics as you can handle for a nice rich sound, mic merge is key for this library,


----------



## daviddln

Evans said:


> For what it's worth, sometimes SINE will flat out hard freeze on me on a load unless I'm running it from VEPro.



I've downloaded the mic positions again, and now it loads all the articulations in 20 seconds. Thanks for your help. I've tried to merge mics but it made SINE crash. But that's another story. Thanks!


----------



## ProfoundSilence

daviddln said:


> I've downloaded the mic positions again, and now it loads all the articulations in 20 seconds. Thanks for your help. I've tried to merge mics but it made SINE crash. But that's another story. Thanks!


its a known issue with BSS, mic merging works on every other library - but as a whole it's broken for BSS. 

I think some people here got a few patches to work but all in all, gotta wait for OT to fix that.


----------



## daviddln

ProfoundSilence said:


> its a known issue with BSS, mic merging works on every other library - but as a whole it's broken for BSS.
> 
> I think some people here got a few patches to work but all in all, gotta wait for OT to fix that.



Ah ok, thanks for the info.


----------



## muziksculp

novaburst said:


> I think this is the secret if you like, is to use as much mics as you can handle for a nice rich sound, mic merge is key for this library,


Yes, actually I did a few comparison tests to hear how BSS Violins (with all mics up) compares to other popular Vlns 1 from other libraries, It was interesting how closely it resembled the BBCSO Pro's first violins.


----------



## Secret Soundworks

I've been playing around with BSS trying to make some "performance samples" style patches, or something similar to for example Adventure Strings where you can play spiccatos and accented marcatos which also go into sustains in one patch without keyswitches and the result is actually really nice imo!

I layered the spiccato, marcato long and sustains patch and set them all to the same output (ch1), then in the sustains patch I turned on niente, so that when the modwheel is all the way down and I'm playing just spiccatos I don't get any of the sustain sound.

With this you can just play spiccatos with the mod wheel all the way down and then you can simply hold for an accented marcato and program in or bump your mod wheel up before you do and it goes into a nice accented marcato with a sustain (that you can hold forever if you want).

You could maybe get even better results by throwing in the Staccato or Marcato short articulations for even more bite.

Here is how it's setup (screenshot below) + attaching an audio demo, first with spiccato playing and moving my modwheel up on the last notes to get into a marcato sustain, then with just modwheel down so you have only spiccatos on all notes. This is on violins 1, but I tried it on the cellos and it works just as good there. Just some sloppy playing (nothing quantized, so its a mess)






And here is how it is programmed (the audio you hear), the modwheel swell before the notes triggers the marcato sustain






EDIT: You can also tweak the velocity on the marcato sustained note, to get more or less bite from the spiccato overlay. So you can get pretty gentle attacks too which is nice


----------



## G_Erland

May i ask a question - i havent tried merging mics yet, and its on my mind though im unable to get to my rig because of you know what and travel restrictions. When you merge mics - do you still have access to them on individual channels or do they go to one or how does that work?


----------



## djrustycans

Secret Soundworks said:


> I've been playing around with BSS trying to make some "performance samples" style patches, or something similar to for example Adventure Strings where you can play spiccatos and accented marcatos which also go into sustains in one patch without keyswitches and the result is actually really nice imo!
> 
> I layered the spiccato, marcato long and sustains patch and set them all to the same output (ch1), then in the sustains patch I turned on niente, so that when the modwheel is all the way down and I'm playing just spiccatos I don't get any of the sustain sound.
> 
> With this you can just play spiccatos with the mod wheel all the way down and then you can simply hold for an accented marcato and program in or bump your mod wheel up before you do and it goes into a nice accented marcato with a sustain (that you can hold forever if you want).
> 
> You could maybe get even better results by throwing in the Staccato or Marcato short articulations for even more bite.
> 
> Here is how it's setup (screenshot below) + attaching an audio demo, first with spiccato playing and moving my modwheel up on the last notes to get into a marcato sustain, then with just modwheel down so you have only spiccatos on all notes. This is on violins 1, but I tried it on the cellos and it works just as good there. Just some sloppy playing (nothing quantized, so its a mess)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here is how it is programmed (the audio you hear), the modwheel swell before the notes triggers the marcato sustain
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT: You can also tweak the velocity on the marcato sustained note, to get more or less bite from the spiccato overlay. So you can get pretty gentle attacks too which is nice


This looks great - I was trying out similar things a couple of weeks ago but yours looks more refined!
I’ll try this out at the weekend.


----------



## djrustycans

G_Erland said:


> May i ask a question - i havent tried merging mics yet, and its on my mind though im unable to get to my rig because of you know what and travel restrictions. When you merge mics - do you still have access to them on individual channels or do they go to one or how does that work?


You still get access to the original mics but you have your new Stereo mic mix to choose from also. Then you can disable all of the others...


----------



## Secret Soundworks

djrustycans said:


> This looks great - I was trying out similar things a couple of weeks ago but yours looks more refined!
> I’ll try this out at the weekend.


Nice, let me know how it goes! Also, I recommend turning on Niente for the Marcato long patch in addition to the Sustain patch, just so its only spiccatos playing with modwheel fully down.

Here is some more testing and playing around, 4 patches (Violins 1, Violas, Celli, Basses), no keyswitching, only CC1 automation for the marcatos/sustains and velocity editing for attack of spiccatos.

I'm using some terrible sounding headphones atm, but hopefully it sounds decent haha (the basses might be a bit too loud)

Here is how it looks programmed


----------



## Babe

Is there any reason not to use the sus+leg patch instead of the sun patch?


----------



## muziksculp

Babe said:


> Is there any reason not to use the sus+leg patch instead of the sun patch?


The Sus+Leg patch loads the legato transitions so you can play Legato style. The Sustain Patch does not load the legato transitions, it has the Legato button disabled, so it's good for playing sustained chords, without any legatos, and it plays polyphonically. The Sustain patch will use less RAM.

You can load the Sustain Patch, then enable the Legato Button, to get legato functionality. Which will load the additional legato transitions into RAM.

So You have both options available to load for convenience. If you need to play legatos right away, use the Sus+Leg patch. If you just need to play Sustained Chords, use the Sustain Patch.


----------



## holywilly

So the legato transition of sustain+leg patches are recorded legato transition, and the sustain patches with legato button on are the scripted legato transition from SINE player, is that true?
I have Amber and I turns on legato on the cello’s express swell patch, the transition actually sounds quite good.


----------



## muziksculp

holywilly said:


> So the legato transition of sustain+leg patches are recorded legato transition, and the sustain patches with legato button on are the scripted legato transition from SINE player, is that true?


No, when you load the Sustain patches, then enable the Legato button, SINE will actually load the Legato Transitions, that are the same ones in the Sustain+Leg patches. So basically you end up with the Sustain+Leg patch, but you intially loaded only the Sustain patch, without any Legatos.

i.e. if you loaded the Sustain+Leg patch, then disabled the Legato button, you end up with Pure Sustains, no Legato. SINE will delete the legato transitions, and keep only the sustain samples, so you can play polyphonic sustains.


----------



## muziksculp

Hi,

I found another BSS bug today.

Playing F3 using Vlns 1 Sustain+Legato patch, using the SPOT 2 Mic, produces a loud low freq. thump sound. Dynamics set in the 70's range.

Can someone check this to confirm it. I will be reporting it to OT once someone confirms it. I'm also not sure if this was reported to OT, so I don't want to double report the same issue.

Hopefully they will fix it in the next update, which is taking a while. If no one reported this I will do so.


View attachment BSS F3 Spot 2 Mic Issue.mp3



Thanks.


----------



## Germain B

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> I found another BSS bug today.
> 
> Playing F3 using Vlns 1 Sustain+Legato patch, using the SPOT 2 Mic, produces a loud low freq. thump sound. Dynamics set in the 70's range.
> 
> Can someone check this to confirm it. I will be reporting it to OT once someone confirms it. I'm also not sure if this was reported to OT, so I don't want to double report the same issue.
> 
> Hopefully they will fix it in the next update, which is taking a while. If no one reported this I will do so.
> 
> 
> View attachment BSS F3 Spot 2 Mic Issue.mp3
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks.


Yes, I have it too. And it's also there playing E3.


----------



## muziksculp

Germain B said:


> Yes, I have it too. And it's also there playing E3.


Thanks. I will test the E3. I thought it's only the F3.


----------



## prodigalson

I just did this mockup of a cue from Pride & Prejudice by Dario Marianelli using Berlin Symphonic Strings.

The whole orchestra is the Berlin series with mostly Berlin Symphonic strings and a touch of Berlin Strings here and there for some of the divisi. Would normally do a cue like this with a smaller section but here you go.


----------



## muziksculp

prodigalson said:


> I just did this mockup of a cue from Pride & Prejudice by Dario Marianelli using Berlin Symphonic Strings.
> 
> The whole orchestra is the Berlin series with mostly Berlin Symphonic strings and a touch of Berlin Strings here and there for some of the divisi. Would normally do a cue like this with a smaller section but here you go.



Sounds wonderful.  

Both OT-BSS, and BS complement each other very nicely.

I'm so excited to see Berlin Strings, and it's expansions running in SINE (hopefully soon), and also the BSS Update. 

Thanks for sharing.


----------



## constaneum

After watching videos by Sample Library Review as well as one of OT's official videos "Berlin Symphonic Strings: Demo walkthrough by track15", i have to say i think i'm not going to opt for BSS as i've intended initially. The rapid legato of the viola and some other legatos aren't that convincing. Another thing which i dont understand is the difference for the following patches

1. Rapid Legato + LEG and Rapid Legato
2. Pattern Legato + LEG and Pattern Legato. 

Any difference ? from what i'm hearing from Sample Library Review's video, the patches Rapid Legato + LEG and Pattern Legato + LEG sound a bit weird. not that convincing either.


----------



## muziksculp

constaneum said:


> After watching videos by Sample Library Review as well as one of OT's official videos "Berlin Symphonic Strings: Demo walkthrough by track15", i have to say i think i'm not going to opt for BSS as i've intended initially. The rapid legato of the viola and some other legatos aren't that convincing. Another thing which i dont understand is the difference for the following patches
> 
> 1. Rapid Legato + LEG and Rapid Legato
> 2. Pattern Legato + LEG and Pattern Legato.
> 
> Any difference ? from what i'm hearing from Sample Library Review's video, the patches Rapid Legato + LEG and Pattern Legato + LEG sound a bit weird. not that convincing either.


Hi @constaneum ,

I think OT's naming of the patches is kind of odd, and confusing. 

Rapid Legato + LEG = Has Legato Enabled when you load the patch.
Rapid Legato = Does Not have Legato Enabled when you load the patch, but you can manually enable Legat by pressing the Legato button on the GUI. 

Same story with Pattern Legato.

Pattern Legato + LEG = Has Legato Enabled when you load the patch
Pattern Legato = Does Not have Legato Enabled when you load the patch, but you can manually enable Legato by pressing the Legato button on the GUI. 

These are not your normal Legatos, but rather better suited for Ostinatos, Arpeggios, or smooth fast runs, ..etc. I tried using these articulations with the Violas, playing Ostinatos, and they sounded pretty good. 

Also BSS will be getting an update soon. I personally love this library, and feel it will continue to get better with some TLC from OT over time. 

Hope this is helpful. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## BasariStudios

muziksculp said:


> Hi @constaneum ,
> 
> I think OT's naming of the patches is kind of odd, and confusing.
> 
> Rapid Legato + LEG = Has Legato Enabled when you load the patch.
> Rapid Legato = Does Not have Legato Enabled when you load the patch, but you can manually enable Legat by pressing the Legato button on the GUI.
> 
> Same story with Pattern Legato.
> 
> Pattern Legato + LEG = Has Legato Enabled when you load the patch
> Pattern Legato = Does Not have Legato Enabled when you load the patch, but you can manually enable Legato by pressing the Legato button on the GUI.
> 
> These are not your normal Legatos, but rather better suited for Ostinatos, Arpeggios, or smooth fast runs, ..etc. I tried using these articulations with the Violas, playing Ostinatos, and they sounded pretty good.
> 
> Also BSS will be getting an update soon. I personally love this library, and feel it will continue to get better with some TLC from OT over time.
> 
> Hope this is helpful.
> 
> Cheers,
> Muziksculp


I am still torn about BSS...i love it but still being scared of it.
Many times i almost pulled the trigger on it.


----------



## constaneum

look at the Rapid Legato+LEG for viola. is it suppose to sound like that? I prefer its sound when it was just using "Pattern Legato" patch.


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## muziksculp

constaneum said:


> look at the Rapid Legato+LEG for viola. is it suppose to sound like that? I prefer its sound when it was just using "Pattern Legato" patch.


Pattern-Legato patch is better suited for Ostinato Patterns. That's why they sound right when you play an Ostinato pattern. The Rapid-Legatos are better suited for fast runs, or fast legato phrases. 

I haven't done a whole lot of experimenting with them, but using them in this fashion produces the expected results, and don't sound odd to me.


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## jbuhler

muziksculp said:


> Pattern-Legato patch is better suited for Ostinato Patterns. That's why they sound right when you play an Ostinato pattern. The Rapid-Legatos are better suited for fast runs, or fast legato phrases.
> 
> I haven't done a whole lot of experimenting with them, but using them in this fashion produces the expected results, and don't sound odd to me.


Pattern legato sometimes sounds better than the regular legato on ordinary lines. The pattern legato sustain is also non-vib. You can also hook up any of the sustains to any of the legatos.


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## Fry777

constaneum said:


> Another thing which i dont understand is the difference for the following patches
> 
> 1. Rapid Legato + LEG and Rapid Legato
> 2. Pattern Legato + LEG and Pattern Legato.
> 
> Any difference ?



It is a bit confusing indeed, and I agree a short manual would have been welcome here. I have been working on a written review of the library for the past few weeks that is almost ready for publication, and it definitely requires a bit of time to get your head around this. Digging deeper at these patches, I realised that :
- First, as a reminder, the library comes with 3 legato transition techniques : melodic, pattern, and rapid
- The presence of the word "Legato" in a patch name, by itself, doesn't indicate a legato transition is included
- Some patches load with a form of legato transition technique attached already, in which case their name includes "+ LEG"
- You can combine any legato transition technique with any patch, even if a patch is already named after another legato (for example, a melodic legato technique combined with a pattern legato patch is possible)
- The patch called "Pattern Legato" (talking about the patch here, not the legato technique) is not a standard expressive sustain, it is a non-vib sustain that fits better with traditional ostinato figures
- The patch "Rapid Legato" is not a standard sustain neither, it seems to be an hybrid of a spiccato/marcato long/shortened sustain. It fits better for runs that require a bit of a quicker attack on notes, without being a full on spiccato
- Reducing the legato volume in SINE just a bit was a better fit for some musical phrases (really depends on the context, this is a personal preference)

I'm actually surprised these things were not covered more clearly in reviews


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## holywilly

This is my current legato setting, the transition of Melodic legato is way too slow where Pattern legato sounds just right. I also shorten release time to around 800ms, which fit perfectly with Synchron Strings Pro. Now I can blend both BSS & Synchron Strings Pro together for more lush sound.


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## constaneum

holywilly said:


> This is my current legato setting, the transition of Melodic legato is way too slow where Pattern legato sounds just right. I also shorten release time to around 800ms, which fit perfectly with Synchron Strings Pro. Now I can blend both BSS & Synchron Strings Pro together for more lush sound.


Any audio demo to showcase what you're highlighting here? thanks


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## David Kudell

Hey all, in case you may have missed it, here’s a demo of BSS I did for Orchestral Tools, with a breakdown of the track.


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## musicalweather

Haven't read all 56 pages of this thread, so forgive me if I repeat what others have said. I finally got in depth with Symphonic Strings this week. I mocked up a piece I had previously mocked up using the Berlin Strings Main library. It seemed harder to get something satisfying with BSS, especially with the first violins, which sounded very clunky at first. With Berlin Main, it seemed like I was easily able to get a satisfying result. BSS celli sound gorgeous, but so do the Berlin Main ones. The BSS first violins gave me a very distinct vibrato, even though I didn't really want it and had the vibrato set to subtle. The BSS sound is definitely bigger and more powerful. Here is the piece I mocked up, by Blakus:





Here is the same piece mocked up with Berlin Main Strings:




I did the BSS version in Cubase and had a ton of hung notes in SINE, but I think it was because I overloaded SINE with too many mic positions. Keep the mic positions to a moderate number and everything will go smoothly. 

Since most of my orchestral sounds are from OT, I'm glad I have a big string section sound from them. Still learning how to use it, though.


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## muziksculp

musicalweather said:


> Haven't read all 56 pages of this thread, so forgive me if I repeat what others have said. I finally got in depth with Symphonic Strings this week. I mocked up a piece I had previously mocked up using the Berlin Strings Main library. It seemed harder to get something satisfying with BSS, especially with the first violins, which sounded very clunky at first. With Berlin Main, it seemed like I was easily able to get a satisfying result. BSS celli sound gorgeous, but so do the Berlin Main ones. The BSS first violins gave me a very distinct vibrato, even though I didn't really want it and had the vibrato set to subtle. The BSS sound is definitely bigger and more powerful. Here is the piece I mocked up, by Blakus:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the same piece mocked up with Berlin Main Strings:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I did the BSS version in Cubase and had a ton of hung notes in SINE, but I think it was because I overloaded SINE with too many mic positions. Keep the mic positions to a moderate number and everything will go smoothly.
> 
> Since most of my orchestral sounds are from OT, I'm glad I have a big string section sound from them. Still learning how to use it, though.



Thanks for the demos. 

The BSS version sounds fuller, and richer compared to the BS version to my ears. 

I have a feeling that the Berlin Strings SINE version is going to have a nicer sound, and more improvements compared to the Kontakt version. Just speculating. 

Still waiting for the OT BSS Update.


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## shawnsingh

muziksculp said:


> Thanks for the demos.
> 
> The BSS version sounds fuller, and richer compared to the BS version to my ears.
> 
> I have a feeling that the Berlin Strings SINE version is going to have a nicer sound, and more improvements compared to the Kontakt version. Just speculating.
> 
> Still waiting for the OT BSS Update.


I don't expect any particular improvements to the sound of Berlin Strings on Sine player, but I'm very much looking forward to the significantly reduced memory. I've always used tree-only because I liked it but also because I never wanted to bother with the memory overhead - being willing to layer in some of the concertmaster mic and AB will be very exciting. 

But I do wish there were an outrigger position in Berlin Strings, similar to BSS...


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## muziksculp

shawnsingh said:


> I don't expect any particular improvements to the sound of Berlin Strings on Sine player, but I'm very much looking forward to the significantly reduced memory. I've always used tree-only because I liked it but also because I never wanted to bother with the memory overhead - being willing to layer in some of the concertmaster mic and AB will be very exciting.
> 
> But I do wish there were an outrigger position in Berlin Strings, similar to BSS...


I compared the Woodwind Soloists Flute in SINE and Kontakt, and the SINE version sound better to me. They do sound different. That's why I feel the SINE version of BS will sound different, and possibly better than the Kontakt version.


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## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> I compared the Woodwind Soloists Flute in SINE and Kontakt, and the SINE version sound better to me. They do sound different. That's why I feel the SINE version of BS will sound different, and possibly better than the Kontakt version.


Right, one of the supposed benefits of SINE is smoother legato. Whether that's the case is TBD


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## djrustycans

My biggest issue with Sine right now is that I can’t reduce the RAM footprint a la Kontakt with the ‘update sample pool’ function. This regularly can take 1.5 gb Multis down to 16mb for me! (Approximate figures of course)

I used BSS on a ‘huge’ pitch last week and the 1st Violins Legato alone ate up around 2gb with a few mic positions enabled.

AFAIK - the purge feature in Sine doesn’t only load in the used samples.. Real deal breaker for me vs Kontakt, which is why I still use Kontakt for all the Ark series.


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## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> Right, one of the supposed benefits of SINE is smoother legato. Whether that's the case is TBD


Yes, legato is smoother in SINE, but even the timbre/character of the instrument is different in the SINE format when compared to the Kontakt version.


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## EricValette

The more I go in depth with BSS, the more I like it. Tone is gorgeous and it pairs perfectly well with others OT libs (except Berlin Strings, I don't really understand why...) and AROOF from Spitfire.

I updated the intro of my LOTR Symphony mockup and although it is still a work in progress (this track is a real test lab), I am more and more happy with the end result.



For those who are interested, BSS mics are Spot1 +3db (+1 db on violins 1), Spot2 -12db, Leader -5db, Tree 0db, AB -3db (AB mic ON only on celli) and Outrigger -3db.
I use only Pattern legato + rapid legato (melodic legato need a fix). I also lower a bit the volume of the legato transitions (-0.2 à -0.8 db depending of the section)

Others libs used are : AROOF, OT JXL Brass, OT BWW main (legacy)+EXP A,B and C, OT Ark1 choir blended with Spitfire Eric Whitacre choir, OT Symphonic Harp, OT Timpani+DOTD2, Spitfire Labs Monochord, a little bit of Cinesamples Room tone.


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## jbuhler

EricValette said:


> The more I go in depth with BSS, the more I like it. Tone is gorgeous and it pairs perfectly well with others OT libs (except Berlin Strings, I don't really understand why...) and AROOF from Spitfire.



I agree with this. I very much like BSS with AROOF, with SSS, with HZS, with Afflatus, and
It sounds different with each. But i found it doesn’t sit well with BS. Most peculiar.


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## muziksculp

jbuhler said:


> I agree with this. I very much like BSS with AROOF, with SSS, with HZS, with Afflatus, and
> It sounds different with each. But i found it doesn’t sit well with BS. Most peculiar.


Interesting, I haven't tried using BSS with BS, but I suspect it's the smaller ensemble size of BS compared to the much larger ensembles in BSS. 

SSS, HZS, AROOF have larger string sections compared to BS. But there could be something else at play here, so I'm just guessing. 

I'm hoping that BS will sound better running in SINE, compared to Kontakt, what I mean by better, is have a fuller, more rounded sound, rather than thin sounding, which I noticed some users mention when commenting about the sound of BS.


----------



## jbuhler

muziksculp said:


> Interesting, I haven't tried using BSS with BS, but I suspect it's the smaller ensemble size of BS compared to the much larger ensembles in BSS.
> 
> SSS, HZS, AROOF have larger string sections compared to BS. But there could be something else at play here, so I'm just guessing.
> 
> I'm hoping that BS will sound better running in SINE, compared to Kontakt, what I mean by better, is have a fuller, more rounded sound, rather than thin sounding, which I noticed some users mention when commenting about the sound of BS.


I very much like the sound of BS. I just found the Kontakt version took too much RAM. I also find it fussier to program than my other string libraries. I haven’t really worked with it on the new machine though. I imagine I’ll no longer have the RAM issue, since I now have 128GB. But I’m sure the RAM footprint will be much smaller on Sine and I find all of the Sine versions of libraries program easier than the Capsule versions.


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## matthieuL

jbuhler said:


> But I’m sure the RAM footprint will be much smaller on Sine


The RAM footprint of the engine itself, yes. But the RAM footprint of samples loaded will be bigger with SINE, since it hasn't a purge system yet (the basic one present is almost useless, as when purged it loads all the samples at the frist one played).
So I think the total RAM footprint in SINE is much bigger in SINE for the moment. Did someone test it on the libraries ported on SINE ?


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## Germain B

matthieuL said:


> The RAM footprint of the engine itself, yes. But the RAM footprint of samples loaded will be bigger with SINE, since it hasn't a purge system yet (the basic one present is almost useless, as when purged it loads all the samples at the frist one played).
> So I think the total RAM footprint in SINE is much bigger in SINE for the moment. Did someone test it on the libraries ported on SINE ?


Yes, that's what's keeping me away from using it much right now. I'm waiting for an update because right now it's quite limiting.


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## EricValette

jbuhler said:


> I agree with this. I very much like BSS with AROOF, with SSS, with HZS, with Afflatus, and
> It sounds different with each. But i found it doesn’t sit well with BS. Most peculiar.


Indeed.

I tried myself and BSS works very well layered with SSS, HZS and Afflatus as you said (I had interesting results with Hollywood Strings and CSS too ). For my own taste however, the combination with AR1 works best and is the easiest to achieve.

No luck with Vista on Con Moto for the moment, but it's me who must do it wrong... With BS, it seems that it's more a problem of general tone rather than a problem of mics position or placement.

An another quick LOTR test with the same mics settings as mentioned in my previous post in this thread (BSS layered with AROOF Mix1) :


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## muziksculp

EricValette said:


> Indeed.
> 
> I tried myself and BSS works very well layered with SSS, HZS and Afflatus as you said (I had interesting results with Hollywood Strings and CSS too ). For my own taste however, the combination with AR1 works best and is the easiest to achieve.
> 
> No luck with Vista on Con Moto for the moment, but it's me who must do it wrong... With BS, it seems that it's more a problem of general tone rather than a problem of mics position or placement.
> 
> An another quick LOTR test with the same mics settings as mentioned in my previous post in this thread (BSS layered with AROOF Mix1) :



BSS + AROOF Strings sound very good ! 

Did you play the AROOF with BSS Strings for the chord progressions, since it has no legatos, and then used BSS for the legato melodic line ? 

Thanks for sharing.


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## jbuhler

matthieuL said:


> The RAM footprint of the engine itself, yes. But the RAM footprint of samples loaded will be bigger with SINE, since it hasn't a purge system yet (the basic one present is almost useless, as when purged it loads all the samples at the frist one played).
> So I think the total RAM footprint in SINE is much bigger in SINE for the moment. Did someone test it on the libraries ported on SINE ?


All of my libraries where I have both Kontakt and Sine are effectively smaller on Sine. if you use more than one mic regularly you can also merge those in Sine so you are effectively only using one mic, saving vastly on RAM.


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## matthieuL

jbuhler said:


> All of my libraries where I have both Kontakt and Sine are effectively smaller on Sine. if you use more than one mic regularly you can also merge those in Sine so you are effectively only using one mic, saving vastly on RAM.


With samples purged in Kontakt ??? Strange result, but... ok


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## jbuhler

EricValette said:


> Indeed.
> 
> I tried myself and BSS works very well layered with SSS, HZS and Afflatus as you said (I had interesting results with Hollywood Strings and CSS too ). For my own taste however, the combination with AR1 works best and is the easiest to achieve.
> 
> No luck with Vista on Con Moto for the moment, but it's me who must do it wrong... With BS, it seems that it's more a problem of general tone rather than a problem of mics position or placement.
> 
> An another quick LOTR test with the same mics settings as mentioned in my previous post in this thread (BSS layered with AROOF Mix1) :



The thing I like is the combinations are all different. I am also taken by BSS and AROOF, but SSS and Afflatus open in different directions. Another library that works surprisingly well is NI Symphony Strings, which I find a rather lackluster library on its own but it has a good portamento that you can borrow to add to BSS.

And SCS layers surprisingly well with BSS. Not as well as with SSS, but still very good.

Also to go back to BS, I found BS layers well with BSS so long as there is a third library. Weirdly, it doesn’t seem to matter which one. Not sure why BS and BSS don’t play well together on their own. But it’s certainly not a combination like SSS and SCS.

One of the things I’m really liking about both BSS and AROOF is that they both play very well with other libraries. And they do it in a way that you don’t lose distinctive characteristics of the libraries.


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## jbuhler

matthieuL said:


> With samples purged in Kontakt ??? Strange result, but... ok


I don’t normally purge samples in Kontakt (and I haven’t since I moved beyond 16GB of RAM) so I can’t say. (My templates aren’t giant and I use Logic so unused tracks don’t load at all.) RAM use also depends greatly on the DFD setting. But in my regular use at the DFD settings that work for my setup Sine patches take less RAM than Kontakt, and when using multiple mics, Sine patches take considerably less space because I merge mics.


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## AEF

A purged Kontakt instrument is far more efficient than any merged mic setup in SINE, plus offers the user the ability to automate the mics during a mix, process them separately etc. I use OT stuff for the sound, not they player which sadly for me isnt half as good as capsule in kontakt. ymmv.


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## Babe

I agree. I much prefer capsule over SINE.


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## jbuhler

AEF said:


> A purged Kontakt instrument is far more efficient than any merged mic setup in SINE, plus offers the user the ability to automate the mics during a mix, process them separately etc. I use OT stuff for the sound, not they player which sadly for me isnt half as good as capsule in kontakt. ymmv.


My mileage does vary. To each their own.

ETA: Really, I can't convert to Sine fast enough, despite some issues I've had. Absolutely despise Capsule.


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## muziksculp

SINE is the future, CAPSULE is the past. Choose as you wish.


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## Marsen

I choose capsule.


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## holywilly

SINE needs to have auto gain function from capsule.


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## ProfoundSilence

holywilly said:


> SINE needs to have auto gain function from capsule.


Tbh I just want the CC controllable parameters back

I know we will get it but that's what I'm hurting for the most


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## EricValette

muziksculp said:


> BSS + AROOF Strings sound very good !
> 
> Did you play the AROOF with BSS Strings for the chord progressions, since it has no legatos, and then used BSS for the legato melodic line ?
> 
> Thanks for sharing.


Hi,

In reality, it's really depending on the musical context. For some melodic phrases what you describe is what I do. For others, AROOF also doubles the melody played by BSS. In this second case, a -140 ms pre delay for the BSS legato patches and a -40 ms pre delay for the AROOF strings (release left at 50%) works very well. 
For AROOF, I also try to reduce the overlapping to a minimum in the MIDI editor, otherwise it interferes very quickly with the legato transitions of BSS. Also, AROOF is about 6-8 db below the volume of BSS. 

If I dub parts in divisi, I only do it for the higher end and again, sometimes not all (the sections of AROOF are huge and can quickly weigh down the mix). 

Afterwards, I still did not understand the choice of Spitfire Audio to integrate both the violas in unison with the violins for the high strings. It seems to me that it's very rare that these three sections play in unison in a real context and the violas really color the sound ... but sometimes it's an effect that can be interesting... 
It also seems that BSS needs a lot of processing to come alive, especially the violins as it has already been noted here many times. EQ, Exciter and a little bit of Clariphonic seem to be a good start to open up and energize the sound + a sufficiently neutral reverb to preserve the beautiful overall tone of the library (here, just a little bit of Cinematic Room Pro on the master bus). For AROOF, I do not use any effect, except the aforementioned reverb on the master bus followed by a maximizer and a vintage limiter (Ozone).

I will now test with the Berlin First Chairs to see if it can bring a little more definition and how it blends together... If it's interesting, I'll share the result here...


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## EricValette

jbuhler said:


> One of the things I’m really liking about both BSS and AROOF is that they both play very well with other libraries. And they do it in a way that you don’t lose distinctive characteristics of the libraries.


This!


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## jbuhler

EricValette said:


> In reality, it's really depending on the musical context. For some melodic phrases what you describe is what I do. For others, AROOF also doubles the melody played by BSS. In this second case, a -140 ms pre delay for the BSS legato patches and a -40 ms pre delay for the AROOF strings (release left at 50%) works very well.
> For AROOF, I also try to reduce the overlapping to a minimum in the MIDI editor, otherwise it interferes very quickly with the legato transitions of BSS. Also, AROOF is about 6-8 db below the volume of BSS


Thanks for working this out and reporting it. I’d only got to the point of moving things by trial and error. Which mics/mixes are you using for AROOF and BSS?


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## EricValette

jbuhler said:


> Thanks for working this out and reporting it. I’d only got to the point of moving things by trial and error. Which mics/mixes are you using for AROOF and BSS?



Edit (2021-03-20) : Updated excerpts and details of microphone settings below. The result is less reverberating, more defined, and appears as a perfect intermediate mix between the rendering of the original OST ("Prologue" of the "Complete recordings" edition) and the more reverberant one of the "Symphony" recorded in a large concert hall in Switzerland. More and more happy with the final result... 

----------------------------
Sure! 

I think I have improved the two mixes a bit since yesterday. The microphone positions used in the two extracts below are:

BSS
All sections : Spot1 +3 db, Tree 0db

Performance Samples Vista
Violins + Celli only : Tree -7,8 db

AROOF
Mix 1 only


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## muziksculp

Wow ! Finally the *BSS* update is released. (Thanks for the heads up) 

Downloading it now.


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## muziksculp

@OrchestralTools ,

Thanks for the BSS Update  

Downloading it now.

Any documentation regarding what the update offers ? 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Virtuoso

The Wonky Fifths are still there. Violas Sustains+Leg, highest dynamic range, G#4-C#4 & G4-C4.



I guess 3 months just wasn't long enough to fix this one.


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## muziksculp

Hi,

I won't be able to test the update until much later today, so any feedback from those who updated BSS, and are testing what's improved, or not would be helpful. 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


----------



## Jett Hitt

ka00 said:


> Still downloading Celli and Basses. Playing with Vlns 1 and everything sounded fine. The download has been stalling a bunch, so I have to quit and restart sine a lot.
> 
> While downloading, I played around with Vlns 1, made a mix preset I like and saved an instance preset using the save disc icon. When I loaded Vlns 1 again, the instrument sounds like it's transposed up roughly 1.5 semitones. However, global tuning is set to 440Hz, as usual, and I've shift clicked the key range down at the bottom of the player to reset transposition in case I had accidentally transposed it.
> 
> Very bizarre. Has anyone else experienced this?


Hmmm. . . . I've had a similar thing happen with Berlin Soloists, though not exactly the same. A couple of times I have opened a file to find the Oboe transposed up a full step. I can't explain this, but I have attributed it, perhaps erroneously, to Logic and not Sine. I just transpose it, and then everything works fine. It is a strange thing, though.


----------



## Virtuoso

Evans said:


> I was just mucking about with Celli Legato near the top of its range and have an odd transition from B up to F.


This still isn't fixed either. Celli Legato - A-D# and B-F


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## jbuhler

Virtuoso said:


> This still isn't fixed either. Celli Legato - A-D# and B-F



Did you report it again?


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## muziksculp

Anything positive to report about the update ?


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## Virtuoso

muziksculp said:


> Anything positive to report about the update ?


Yes - the basses still have those bonus octaves! Such a time saver!!


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## Virtuoso

jbuhler said:


> Did you report it again?


Yes - all reported. I'll check again in July.


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## jbuhler

Virtuoso said:


> Yes - all reported. I'll check again in July.


An optimist, I see!


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## jbuhler

Virtuoso said:


> Yes - the basses still have those bonus octaves! Such a time saver!!



What's your setting on this? While my basses don't sound especially good on this, I'm not able to reproduce the full glorious effect you are getting.


----------



## Evans

I love you folks who are willing to download an update without a changelog. I just can't do that and commit the time to fully testing on my own.


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## ProfoundSilence

Evans said:


> I love you folks who are willing to download an update without a changelog. I just can't do that and commit the time to fully testing on my own.


Honestly I also don't update willy nilly unless it's changing something I want changed. 

Reaper updates constantly but I only update if it's got something I see that I want


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## jbuhler

ProfoundSilence said:


> Honestly I also don't update willy nilly unless it's changing something I want changed.
> 
> Reaper updates constantly but I only update if it's got something I see that I want


I'm not on a deadline at the moment and I had some time today. I guess I also trusted that OT wouldn't mess up an update so badly as to make the library unusable. So it was a good time to experiment. The library is indeed perfectly useable albeit with some irritating quirks as it was before. I'm just not at all sure if the update did anything, if there really was an update of if they just pushed the old update again. The first violin legato seemed to be a little better, but it is not so different that I could say for certain without outputting a file with the update and comparing it to an earlier version of the file to see if it changed, especially as I'm not even in my normal studio space at the moment.


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## ProfoundSilence

jbuhler said:


> I'm not on a deadline at the moment and I had some time today. I guess I also trusted that OT wouldn't mess up an update so badly as to make the library unusable. So it was a good time to experiment. The library is indeed perfectly useable albeit with some irritating quirks as it was before. I'm just not at all sure if the update did anything, if there really was an update of if they just pushed the old update again. The first violin legato seemed to be a little better, but it is not so different that I could say for certain without outputting a file with the update and comparing it to an earlier version of the file to see if it changed, especially as I'm not even in my normal studio space at the moment.


Maybe it was a psychological experiment

Release a few fixes and see if users take the placebo and imagine improvements that aren't even there. 

On the plus side it makes people spend some more time with the library? (I'm a terrible person I know).


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## muziksculp

So, could this be a placebo update they are testing our reactions with ? 

Maybe that's why they didn't post any update info. documentation, changelog. Because they didn't change anything.


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## jbuhler

Latest issue with BSS—this started before the update—is that it is hanging in Logic on starting up a project. If I forget to turn off all the Sine instruments before closing, when I open the project Logic will hang opening one of the Sine instruments and I have to force close Logic and then open Logic, turn off core audio, load the project, turn off the Sine instruments, turn core audio back on. And at that point I can turn the Sine instruments back on. I haven't yet reported this to OT because I'm still trying to diagnose the issue and determine whether it happens only in this one project or I can make it happen in other projects as well.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

jbuhler said:


> I haven't yet reported this to OT because I'm still trying to diagnose the issue and determine whether it happens only in this one project or I can make it happen in other projects as well.


damn it, stop being reasonable - instead just make a new thread in sampletalk stomping around with no real details about your problem whilst pointing the finger at everyone. 

then we can change your name to raging buhl.


----------



## Virtuoso

jbuhler said:


> What's your setting on this? While my basses don't sound especially good on this, I'm not able to reproduce the full glorious effect you are getting.


Bass Sustains Accented. It doesn't happen on the highest dynamic layer, which means you can fade the bonus octaves in and out for extra creative flair!


----------



## artomatic

jbuhler said:


> Latest issue with BSS—this started before the update—is that it is hanging in Logic on starting up a project. If I forget to turn off all the Sine instruments before closing, when I open the project Logic will hang opening one of the Sine instruments and I have to force close Logic and then open Logic, turn off core audio, load the project, turn off the Sine instruments, turn core audio back on. And at that point I can turn the Sine instruments back on. I haven't yet reported this to OT because I'm still trying to diagnose the issue and determine whether it happens only in this one project or I can make it happen in other projects as well.


Happens to me on several projects as well when Sine is loading within VEPro in Pro Tools. My workaround is, before quitting Pro Tools, I disable the tracks involving Sine. Next time I load the same project I then enable them after all the other instruments are loaded in VEPro. Lame.
It should never be like this! And yes, the notes hang intermittently when playing back as well! 
I'm pretty sure we aren't the only two experiencing this.


----------



## BasariStudios

So basically this whole update thing was a big FLOP, lol.


----------



## EricValette

I think there is still a lot of things to improve despite this update with unknown content ...

There must have been quite a few changes anyway because I made a new rendering of the LOTR mockup that I am working on at the moment with exactly the same settings as before (mics, effects, "mastering", etc.) and the overall result seems better to me.

It's very subtle sometimes, but I note that the rendering is overall smoother, more coherent, the sound is a little less "crispy" in a pleasant way (more particularly noticeable in the extract "part1") and overall, everything sounds a little more linked, at least to my ears (this is what I hear with good monitors, and even more pronounced with headphones).

I continue to use the "pattern legato" + "fast legato" combo, the melodic legato seems to be a bit improved but too slow and still a bit bumpy for my taste. Note that for the legato pattern, I reset the volume of the transitions to 0 db, the default setting (against -0.2 to -0.8 depending on the sections previously) and I now like the result ... which makes me think that a number of things have happened under the hood.


----------



## Fry777

I tried to play a previously made viola ostinato motif, and I also find the pattern legato transitions tighter/more consistent now


----------



## holywilly

More I use BSS, more I love this library. The only wish I have is to have more variety of shorts, like exposed spiccato and staccatissimo, otherwise it’s a great library to accompany with Synchron Strings Pro.


----------



## constaneum

Virtuoso said:


> Yes - the basses still have those bonus octaves! Such a time saver!!



Interesting. Can create the bass version of Happy Tree Friends' theme. Haha


----------



## muziksculp

Hi,

Tobias from OT, posted this on another forum.

*Quote : *

" _Yes, there will be a SINE update in the future (which will also fix the mic merge issue).
This BSS update just contains a few sample fixes, nothing really earth-shattering_ "


----------



## muziksculp

Just got the Changelog of the current BSS update that was just released.

https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/article/399-berlin-symphonic-strings-notes


Berlin Symphonic Strings - Notes​​Berlin Symphonic Strings 1.02 Changelog​Violins I:​- Fixed several clunky transitions on legato patch.
- Pizzicato patch: sample fixes.
Violins II:​- Sustains (Subtle Vib.): Fixed bad note on F#4/G4, lowest dynamic layer
Violas:​- Fixed various sample issues on several patches.
- Fixed severe bug on the Melodic Legato patch leading to completely wrong major seventh + octave transitions.
Celli:​- Fixed various sample issues on Pattern Legato patch.
- Fixed severe fading issues for the Rapid Legato patch.


----------



## novaburst

Anyone check mic merge


----------



## Fry777

novaburst said:


> Anyone check mic merge


Mic merge is fixed in the next version of SINE, not with this lib update


----------



## novaburst

Fry777 said:


> Mic merge is fixed in the next version of SINE, not with this lib update


I guess it does not stop you using the library but I think it is one of the top featurs of Sine but I guess.for now to use the normal way


----------



## muziksculp

Just a heads up for those who subscribe to SOS Magazine. 

The April, 2021 issue of Sound On Sound Magazine has a nice review of *OT-Berlin Symphonic Strings*.


----------



## novaburst

muziksculp said:


> Just a heads up for those who subscribe to SOS Magazine.
> 
> The April, 2021 issue of Sound On Sound Magazine has a nice review of *OT-Berlin Symphonic Strings*.








Orchestral Tools Berlin Symphonic Strings







www-soundonsound-com.cdn.ampproject.org


----------



## EricValette

Finally, here's the final version of the LOTR mockup (2nd part of "The Prophecy") using BSS layered with AROOF and Vista (+CSS for the harmonics at the very end). I'm pretty happy with the result... BSS is definitely a great layering tool


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## muziksculp

EricValette said:


> Finally, here's the final version of the LOTR mockup (2nd part of "The Prophecy") using BSS layered with AROOF and Vista (+CSS for the harmonics at the very end). I'm pretty happy with the result... BSS is definitely a great layering tool



@EricValette ,

This final version sounds Awesome 

Three questions for you :

Q1. Did you use BSS & Vista for the violins melody theme, without using AROOF for the theme ?

Q2. Would you have been happy without using Vista, (only BSS for the Violin Theme) ?

Q3. Was AROOF mostly used for the string harmonic progression along with BSS, and (did you also use Vista for the harmony) ?

Just curious about how/what you layered in this final version.

Thanks,
Muziksculp


----------



## EricValette

muziksculp said:


> @EricValette ,
> 
> This final version sounds Awesome
> 
> Three questions for you :
> 
> Q1. Did you use BSS & Vista for the violins melody theme, without using AROOF for the theme ?
> 
> Q2. Would you have been happy without using Vista, (only BSS for the Violin Theme) ?
> 
> Q3. Was AROOF mostly used for the string harmonic progression along with BSS, and (did you also use Vista for the harmony) ?
> 
> Just curious about how/what you layered in this final version.
> 
> Thanks,
> Muziksculp


Thanks a lot 

AROOF doubles all parts (long patches, volume is 8db below BSS). It is very important to reduce the overlap to a minimum in the MIDI editor, to avoid interference with the legatos transitions of BSS and Vista.
Vista doubles all parts of violins 1 (or violins 2 if violins 1 don't play the melody) and cellos only. I didn't have good results with the violas and basses. If divisi, Vista only doubles the highest part (volume is 3db below BSS).

Pre delay settings are very important here: I use -130 ms for BSS (combo "pattern legato + rapid legato), -140 ms for Vista and -40 ms for AROOF.

The balance of microphones and volumes between sections does most of the work. Mics settings used are:
BSS: Spot1 + 3db, Tree 0db
AROOF: mix1
Vista: Tree (DC) -8 db

Processing: BSS / Vista strings bus: EQ, Clariphonic, Exciter + Imager (both Ozone) + parallel compression => Master bus: reverb (cinematic room pro) + Vintage tape (Ozone), Maximizer, (Ozone) Vintage limiter (Ozone)
AROOF: => Master bus: reverb (cinematic room pro) + Vintage tape (Ozone), Maximizer, (Ozone), Vintage limiter (Ozone) ... sound and placement is perfect out of the box!

If you're interested, here's the final version of the mockup using only BSS. The result is totally decent, the tone is superb but it lacks a bit of life and depth despite all the processing applied. I don't think I will use this library in the future other than pairing it with other string libraries ... but I also don't think I could use any other string libraries without BSS now... very happy with my purchase!


----------



## muziksculp

EricValette said:


> Pre delay settings are very important here: I use -130 ms for BSS (combo "pattern legato + rapid legato), -140 ms for Vista and -40 ms for AROOF.


Hi @EricValette ,

Thanks for the additional detailed feedback. Appreciate it.  

I'm guessing the Pre-Delays you are referring to are the Track Negative delay compensation amounts you are dialing for the various libraries, I just wanted to double check on this detail. Please let me know if you are referring to something else. (Thanks). 

I totally agree with you, the final version where you used Vista & AROOF with BSS sounds more lively, and has a richer, full strings timbre compared to only BSS version. 

I don't have Vista, but I'm guessing one can also use CSS as a substitute for Vista, or maybe another string library, with very nice timbre, and legato, maybe Spitfire Chamber Strings (SCS) or their Symphonic Strings Legatos, or possibly OT (Berlin Strings) although I read it doesn't blend nicely with BSS. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## ProfoundSilence

String layering is a damned thing - I try to avoid so that I don't end up owning EVERY string library


----------



## Jett Hitt

Several here have said that BSS doesn't layer well with BS. I don't quite get this. If it will layer with libraries from other spaces, why wouldn't it layer with a library recorded in the same space?


----------



## jbuhler

Jett Hitt said:


> Several here have said that BSS doesn't layer well with BS. I don't quite get this. If it will layer with libraries from other spaces, why wouldn't it layer with a library recorded in the same space?


It’s most curious. I just find they don’t sit well together. I also haven’t played much with track delays and mics, so it’s possible there’s a combination that will work. But my experience has been that BSS layers much better with other libraries than with BS.


----------



## Jett Hitt

jbuhler said:


> It’s most curious. I just find they don’t sit well together. I also haven’t played much with track delays and mics, so it’s possible there’s a combination that will work. But my experience has been that BSS layers much better with other libraries than with BS.


I don't pretend to know very much about working with track delays. I just tend to do what the manufacture tells me to do (when they tell me). According to @David Kudell's track delay cheat sheet, though, BSS and BS should have about the same setting of -100. 






Negative Track Delay Database / Spreadsheet


Heres a direct link to the database: Link EDIT: Ok, here's a Google sheet I've created. If you're interested in contributing values for some instruments (and know how to use a Spreadsheet), let me know and I can give you write access. ---- Original post: Is there a database anywhere of...




vi-control.net


----------



## ProfoundSilence

It's possible that different rooms/libraries compliment better than BS and BSS because they would probably have some of the same buildups


----------



## jbuhler

ProfoundSilence said:


> It's possible that different rooms/libraries compliment better than BS and BSS because they would probably have some of the same buildups


I forgot to mention that BSS plays reasonably well with BS is you add a third library to the mix and it doesn’t much matter which. It’s also not a question of simply piling up libraries, because they all sound different. And the remarkable thing with BSS is that it generally forms strong alloys with other libraries when it’s layered. By thus I mean that each of the layered libraries contributes meaningfully to the new sound but also there are some emergent properties that belong to the combination. The other library I have that does this is AROOF, so it’s relatively easy to outfit so that it gives the impression of having legato and BSS and AROOF is already a favorite combination. I’m just looking for a third library to add to provide reliable portamento...


----------



## Jett Hitt

jbuhler said:


> I forgot to mention that BSS plays reasonably well with BS is you add a third library to the mix and it doesn’t much matter which. It’s also not a question of simply piling up libraries, because they all sound different. And the remarkable thing with BSS is that it generally forms strong alloys with other libraries when it’s layered. By thus I mean that each of the layered libraries contributes meaningfully to the new sound but also there are some emergent properties that belong to the combination. The other library I have that does this is AROOF, so it’s relatively easy to outfit so that it gives the impression of having legato and BSS and AROOF is already a favorite combination. I’m just looking for a third library to add to provide reliable portamento...


I finally pulled the trigger on BSS tonight. So given that I have AROOF, I'd be curious to know exactly how you're layering the two. Is it only for legatos and sustains, or are you using it on shorts too? Any special instructions? I will of course pay heed to what @ERIC VALETTE said above in so much as possible.


----------



## jbuhler

Jett Hitt said:


> I finally pulled the trigger on BSS tonight. So given that I have AROOF, I'd be curious to know exactly how you're layering the two. Is it only for legatos and sustains, or are you using it on shorts too? Any special instructions? I will of course pay heed to what @ERIC VALETTE said above in so much as possible.


Yes, I followed @ERIC VALETTE ’s settings and they work really well, but the default mixes for both work reasonably well too. And the real magic happens when you move the modwheel together. (I use Unify to fold them into a multi for playing.) AROOF is somewhat deficient in the shorts category so I rely mostly on BSS for that. I very much like the BSS shorts.


----------



## EricValette

muziksculp said:


> Hi @EricValette ,
> 
> I'm guessing the Pre-Delays you are referring to are the Track Negative delay compensation amounts you are dialing for the various libraries, I just wanted to double check on this detail. Please let me know if you are referring to something else. (Thanks).


You're totally right! I'm actually referring to the track negative delay compensation amounts. Sorry if that wasn't clear!

Some other little details on the mockup:

For the processing I mentioned in my previous post, It's almost entirely and faithfully a recreation of the one described by Anne-Kathrin Dern on her YT channel ("Template" serie and "Jurassic Park strings tutorial"). It's a mixing base that works very well for the Cinesamples, Cinematic Studio Series, OT and Performance Samples stuff. However, it doesn't work at all for Spitfire Audio stuff (I tried with SSS / SCS / BBCSO without success. Same thing for AROOF, this is why it's only concerned by the effects inserted on the master bus (see my previous post). 
The only difference with the AKD mixing setup is the reverb and the use of Clariphonic for the whole orchestra. I use only one instance of Cinematic Room Pro inserted on the master bus with a custom preset inspired by the one created by Stephen Limbaugh for his recent and magnificent mockup of Mahler's 2nd Symphony (see images below for exact settings). For Clariphonic, this is the "A gentle awakening" preset (applied on mix buses for the whole orchestra, except AROOF).


----------



## David Kudell

For BSS try turning up the spot mics on the violins +3db. Because it’s such a big section they start blending and are very “smooth,” so turning up the spot helps bring out a bit more bite.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

David Kudell said:


> For BSS try turning up the spot mics on the violins +3db. Because it’s such a big section they start blending and are very “smooth,” so turning up the spot helps bring out a bit more bite.


I like spot 2+ leader for bite/sweetness and then the tree/outriggers for space


----------



## Jett Hitt

I've been playing with BSS for a couple of days now. The cellos are amazing, and the violins are, well, not--just like everyone said. Does anyone know of a way to change Sine's nomenclature for octaves? It names middle C as C3, and I would like to change it to C4. But I don't see any place to change this in the options.


----------



## jbuhler

Jett Hitt said:


> I've been playing with BSS for a couple of days now. The cellos are amazing, and the violins are, well, not--just like everyone said. Does anyone know of a way to change Sine's nomenclature for octaves? It names middle C as C3, and I would like to change it to C4. But I don't see any place to change this in the options.


I don’t think I’ve ever encountered where to change it, but since I prefer middle C as C3, I haven’t had occasion to seek it out either. 

I’ve come to rather like the BSS violins in all respects aside from the dead spot on the modwheel more or less with the second from highest sample in the legatos. But that isn’t an issue when I layer. And maybe I’m happy with the violins because they are working so well in the piece I’m currently writing.


----------



## muziksculp

Jett Hitt said:


> The cellos are amazing, and the violins are, well, not--just like everyone said.


My main complaint about BSS Violins is they sound a bit too static for my taste, not enough motion, or lets say didn't sound like the players are playing with enough passion, and e-motion in their bowing  especially the vibrato-legato Vlns.

I'm curious if you feel that other aspects of the Vlns can also be improved ? or is it the tone/timbre of the Vlns. you are not too fond of ? or ... ?

I agree. The BSS Celli, are amazing, and the Basses and the Violas sound wonderful as well.

Thanks & Congratulations for becoming a BSS user.


----------



## Evans

muziksculp said:


> My main complaint about BSS Violins is they sound a bit too static for my taste, not enough motion, or lets say didn't sound like the players are playing with enough passion, and e-motion in their bowing  especially the vibrato-legato Vlns.


I was pretty sour about the BSS violins when I first picked it up, so it's been a while since I've tested this out, but I think they layered well with Synchron Strings Pro.

For SSP, I think I was using a legato crossfade between regular vibrato and heavy vibrato, and had set the xfade control so that it used the modwheel. So, the same midi data for BSS and SSP gave a bit more oomph to the BSS vibrato. Maybe just some volume balancing beyond that.

EDIT: Oh, and the SSP patch also used MW for dynamics. So, dynamics and vibrato xfade on the same patch.


----------



## Jett Hitt

muziksculp said:


> My main complaint about BSS Violins is they sound a bit too static for my taste, not enough motion, or lets say didn't sound like the players are playing with enough passion, and e-motion in their bowing  especially the vibrato-legato Vlns.
> 
> I'm curious if you have other feel that other aspects of the Vlns can also be improved ? or is it the tone/timbre of the Vlns. you are not too fond of ? or ... ?
> 
> I agree. The BSS Celli, are amazing, and the Basses and the Violas sound wonderful as well.
> 
> Thanks & Congratulations for becoming a BSS user.


I share your sentiments about the lack of passion or something, not sure what exactly. It seems odd that they could have captured the other sections so incredibility well, and yet with the same equipment, engineers, and room, somehow the violins didn’t come to life in the same way. They aren’t terrible by any means, but they aren’t special either. The cellos truly are. I haven’t played with the violas or basses in a lead role yet, but I’ve heard demos that sound fantastic.

I have tried layering the violins with some success with AROOF, but since I don’t own Vista, I’m not sure whatelse to add to the mix. CSS didn’t really cut it for me, but I’m not a big fan of that library anyway. I have plenty to choose from, but I don’t really like them, hence the reason I keep buying string libraries. Also the prescription detailed above by @EricValette is plenty complicated. I went looking for the AKD formula that he mentioned, but didn’t find it.


----------



## jbuhler

Jett Hitt said:


> I share your sentiments about the lack of passion or something, not sure what exactly. It seems odd that they could have captured the other sections so incredibility well, and yet with the same equipment, engineers, and room, somehow the violins didn’t come to life in the same way. They aren’t terrible by any means, but they aren’t special either. The cellos truly are. I haven’t played with the violas or basses in a lead role yet, but I’ve heard demos that sound fantastic.
> 
> I have tried layering the violins with some success with AROOF, but since I don’t own Vista, I’m not sure whatelse to add to the mix. CSS didn’t really cut it for me, but I’m not a big fan of that library anyway. I have plenty to choose from, but I don’t really like them, hence the reason I keep buying string libraries. Also the prescription detailed above by @EricValette is plenty complicated. I went looking for the AKD formula that he mentioned, but didn’t find it.


Try AROOF mix 2. And play with the balance between the libraries. Also for playing with BS violins alone I find I need to turn down the legato transition a fair bit.


----------



## muziksculp

Jett Hitt said:


> I share your sentiments about the lack of passion or something, not sure what exactly. It seems odd that they could have captured the other sections so incredibility well, and yet with the same equipment, engineers, and room, somehow the violins didn’t come to life in the same way. They aren’t terrible by any means, but they aren’t special either. The cellos truly are. I haven’t played with the violas or basses in a lead role yet, but I’ve heard demos that sound fantastic.
> 
> I have tried layering the violins with some success with AROOF, but since I don’t own Vista, I’m not sure whatelse to add to the mix. CSS didn’t really cut it for me, but I’m not a big fan of that library anyway. I have plenty to choose from, but I don’t really like them, hence the reason I keep buying string libraries. Also the prescription detailed above by @EricValette is plenty complicated. I went looking for the AKD formula that he mentioned, but didn’t find it.


@Jett Hitt ,

Thank You for the feedback.

For some reason, this is not the first strings library that doesn't do a great job at sampling violins, but has much better luck at sampling Celli. I surely think that sampling a violin section, even a solo Violin, is always more challenging than Celli, or solo Cello. 

It might be some technicality that needs to be improved when sampling violins.

They were able to sample the Celli section very nicely, but not the Violins. Could it be related to how they instructed the violin players to play ? Maybe. or it could be more related to a recording tech. detail, or both.

I don't think AKD uses BSS, she like using CSS, and CSSS, and the other Cinematic Studio series libraries. I'm not sure about an AKD formula she mentions in her videos, I watched both her mixing, and template videos. plus some of her other videos. They are quite interesting, and helpful.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## Jett Hitt

muziksculp said:


> I don't think AKD uses BSS, she like using CSS, and CSSS, and the other Cinematic Studio series libraries. I'm not sure about an AKD formula she mentions in her videos, I watched both her mixing, and template videos. plus some of her other videos. They are quite interesting, and helpful.
> 
> Cheers,
> Muziksculp


No, I’ve never seen her use BSS. She doesn’t like BS either. She loves CSS. Maybe if you have amazing mixing skills, CSS is awesome, but for me it’s not. I just don’t like the sound. @ERIC VALETTE mentioned above that he followed her guidance in the Jurassic Park tutorial, but I didn’t really find anything there about layering. Perhaps I misunderstood what he was saying.


----------



## EricValette

Jett Hitt said:


> No, I’ve never seen her use BSS. She doesn’t like BS either. She loves CSS. Maybe if you have amazing mixing skills, CSS is awesome, but for me it’s not. I just don’t like the sound. @ERIC VALETTE mentioned above that he followed her guidance in the Jurassic Park tutorial, but I didn’t really find anything there about layering. Perhaps I misunderstood what he was saying.


Ok, I was certainly not clear enough.

In my previous post, when I spoke about AKD, I was specifically talking about its mixing setup, which lends itself particularly well to the OT, Cinematic Studio Serie and Cinesamples stuff. I wasn't referring at all to the way she blends her different libraries, but how she creates a unified and cohesive mixing ecosystem to facilitate the sonic blending of different libraries from different developers.and on the fact that I have attempted to replicate this one.

For example, its eq settings for its different string sections are exactly the same for all of its different libraries and also work particularly well for BSS and Vista when I tested them. The same goes for the other effects used (general mix bus EQ, imager, exciter, parallel compression, effects inserted on the master bus...). One simple but effective mixing setup to rules them all... 
... and which forms a solid starting point that should always be consolidated or personalized afterwards (e.g. the use of clariphonic in addition to the mix in my case, which greatly improves the coupling with AROOF, especially for violins 1 and 2 of BSS which desperately need to be vitalized in order to not sound sterile and lifeless... or an additional cut-off of frequencies of a few db around 2.8 Khz for Vista which can sound very harsh on this range which makes very difficult the blend with AROOF, same goes for the meticulous choice of a reverb that is both efficient and transparent to help the overall sound cohesion without altering too much the sound signature of the different libraries blended... etc.

There are tons of ways to obtain a good layering results, other contributors here have laid out some very interesting and effective proposals tthat I would like to try too. This is only one of the options which primarily meets my own tastes, needs and workflow


----------



## jbuhler

EricValette said:


> Ok, I was certainly not clear enough.
> 
> In my previous post, when I spoke about AKD, I was specifically talking about its mixing setup, which lends itself particularly well to the OT, Cinematic Studio Serie and Cinesamples stuff. I wasn't referring at all to the way she blends her different libraries, but how she creates a unified and cohesive mixing ecosystem to facilitate the sonic blending of different libraries from different developers.and on the fact that I have attempted to replicate this one.
> 
> For example, its eq settings for its different string sections are exactly the same for all of its different libraries and also work particularly well for BSS and Vista when I tested them. The same goes for the other effects used (general mix bus EQ, imager, exciter, parallel compression, effects inserted on the master bus...). One simple but effective mixing setup to rules them all...
> ... and which forms a solid starting point that should always be consolidated or personalized afterwards (e.g. the use of clariphonic in addition to the mix in my case, which greatly improves the coupling with AROOF, especially for violins 1 and 2 of BSS which desperately need to be vitalized in order to not sound sterile and lifeless... or an additional cut-off of frequencies of a few db around 2.8 Khz for Vista which can sound very harsh on this range which makes very difficult the blend with AROOF, same goes for the meticulous choice of a reverb that is both efficient and transparent to help the overall sound cohesion without altering too much the sound signature of the different libraries blended... etc.
> 
> There are tons of ways to obtain a good layering results, other contributors here have laid out some very interesting and effective proposals tthat I would like to try too. This is only one of the options which primarily meets my own tastes, needs and workflow


I really don’t find I have to do anything fancy to get BSS and AROOF to sit well together. Yes, the resulting alloy is infinitely tweakable, the tweaks allow you to shape the sound in remarkable ways, and you have to tweak the sound to get certain results. But the libraries also sound cohesive pretty much straight out of the box after some simple balancing and with the more or less the same midi, so long as you attend to keeping the overlaps brief since AROOF doesn’t have legato. At high dynamics, you’ll likely also need to to go through and attend to the modwheel at the start of each AROOF note since the AROOF string longs have an aggressive attack at high modwheel settings. The only other thing I find I need to adjust is the legato transition volume in BSS. Of course ymmv, but both BSS and AROOF have so far proved much more amenable to layering, and layering without too much work with many different libraries, each producing a different flavor. This has not generally been my experience with layering. 

I’m also finding in context that BSS violin 1 legato usually works just fine, and I’m coming around to being really taken by the sound. I’m even finding I can often use it effectively exposed. So while it’s perhaps a bit reserved in expression, that’s not always a bad thing. In a current project I’m using it alongside HZS and SCS, and it’s been playing nicely with both.


----------



## muziksculp

Hi @EricValette ,

I'm going to check Clariphonic Plugin by Kush Audio. This is the first time I hear about it. quite a pricy plugin. 

I have, and love using their Silika Compressor. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## Jett Hitt

jbuhler said:


> I’m also finding in context that BSS violin 1 legato usually works just fine, and I’m coming around to being really taken by the sound. I’m even finding I can often use it effectively exposed. So while it’s perhaps a bit reserved in expression, that’s not always a bad thing. In a current project I’m using it alongside HZS and SCS, and it’s been playing nicely with both.


I am getting there too. I have only been working with BSS for a few days, but the sound of the violins is growing on me. I am liking it more and more. I loved the sound of BS--I know many who don't--and I am starting to feel like BSS is more of the same, only bigger. We're not in love yet, but we're definitely dating.


----------



## jbuhler

Jett Hitt said:


> I am getting there too. I have only been working with BSS for a few days, but the sound of the violins is growing on me. I am liking it more and more. I loved the sound of BS--I know many who don't--and I am starting to feel like BSS is more of the same, only bigger. We're not in love yet, but we're definitely dating.


I'm a fan of the sound of BS as well. It's probably my favorite sounding string library. But I still find working with BS to be a PITA, so much so that I rarely use it. I'm hoping the port to Sine will fit my workflow better than Capsule. That's been universally true with the libraries ported so far. And BSS has proved very easy to use.


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## Jett Hitt

jbuhler said:


> I'm a fan of the sound of BS as well. It's probably my favorite sounding string library. But I still find working with BS to be a PITA, so much so that I rarely use it. I'm hoping the port to Sine will fit my workflow better than Capsule. That's been universally true with the libraries ported so far. And BSS has proved very easy to use.


Boy howdy are you ever right about that. I have only been using Sine for about a month, and though I don’t yet fully have command of it, it’s so much easier than Capsule. I can’t wait for the other Berlin libraries to be ported. There are definitely some bugs. I always set my instruments to Omni, and in Logic, I have to reset every one of them each time I reopen a project to get sound. (A known bug I'm told.) If they get mic merge working and add a purge, there'll be no reason to use Kontakt.


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## jbuhler

Jett Hitt said:


> Boy howdy are you ever right about that. I have only been using Sine for about a month, and though I don’t yet fully have command of it, it’s so much easier than Capsule. I can’t wait for the other Berlin libraries to be ported. There are definitely some bugs. I always set my instruments to Omni, and in Logic, I have to reset every one of them each time I reopen a project to get sound. (A known bug I'm told.) If they get mic merge working and add a purge, there'll be no reason to use Kontakt.


I don’t yet have that particular bug in Logic. Something to look forward to! I do have an issue in one project with Sine hanging on load, so I have to remember to turn off all my Sine instruments on that project before saving and closing.


----------



## EricValette

I was wondering how BSS handled runs. For the moment the answer seems to be rather bad or then it is that I have not yet found the right combination of articulations to use (I tried fast legato + different shorts, tremolos, HT trills, trills + tremolos, etc.)

On the other hand, the combination with AROOF once again seems to work very well. I tried the combination tremolos (AROOF) + HT trills (BSS) + Leg (Performance Samples Vista) and I already like the result. The AROOF tremolos alone are already pretty good at simulating runs, but a little too clean for my taste. The addition of BSS trills adds a very nice organic side to the whole.

I'm testing all of this with a John Williams' Hedwig's theme mockup project. Mics positions and mix setup are exactly the same as for my LOTR mockup posted in this thread a few days ago.

Edit 2021-04-10 : Legato transitions ON on BSS trills + Performance Samples Vista Violins added + MIDI offset humanized for strings runs and celesta


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## jbuhler

EricValette said:


> I was wondering how BSS handled runs. For the moment the answer seems to be rather bad or then it is that I have not yet found the right combination of articulations to use (I tried fast legato + different shorts, tremolos, HT trills, trills + tremolos, etc.)
> 
> On the other hand, the combination with AROOF once again seems to work very well. I tried the combination tremolos (AROOF) + HT trills (BSS) and I already like the result. The AROOF tremolos alone are already pretty good at simulating runs, but a little too clean for my taste. The addition of BSS trills adds a very nice organic side to the whole.
> 
> I'm testing all of this with a John Williams' Hedwig's theme mockup project. Mics positions and mix setup are exactly the same as for my LOTR mockup posted in this thread a few days ago.



I've found BSS hit and miss with the rapid legato and regular legato patches for runs. Often the sound is good, but too often it's not. Mixing other libraries helps, as does multiple sections of BSS, and I find the lower dynamic layers are generally better than than the top dynamic layer samples, which I suppose makes sense. I hadn't thought to try the trills. Are you using legato on the trills? Sometimes it's worth trying out the rapid legato with the soft sustain with the legato turned down a bit.


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## EricValette

jbuhler said:


> I've found BSS hit and miss with the rapid legato and regular legato patches for runs. Often the sound is good, but too often it's not. Mixing other libraries helps, as does multiple sections of BSS, and I find the lower dynamic layers are generally better than than the top dynamic layer samples, which I suppose makes sense. I hadn't thought to try the trills. Are you using legato on the trills? Sometimes it's worth trying out the rapid legato with the soft sustain with the legato turned down a bit.


I totally agree with you regarding the hit and miss with the rapid legato and regular legato patches for runs... it's really frustrating because sometimes it can sound good.

And no, I haven't tested the legato on the trills, I'll try this to see if it sounds better!

Thank you very much also for the idea of using the soft sustain with added legato with the volume down, I'll test that too!


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## muziksculp

I wonder if layering a dedicated String Runs library is another option to consider ? 

i.e. Sonokinetic's 'Modal Runs', or ProjectSam's 'Adaptive Runs' Libraries, or ... ?


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## EricValette

muziksculp said:


> I wonder if layering a dedicated String Runs library is another option to consider ?
> 
> i.e. Sonokinetic's 'Modal Runs', or ProjectSam's 'Adaptive Runs' Libraries, or ... ?


Very good suggestions, thanks!

OT Orchestral Strings Runs can also be another option to try. It seems to me that SA Albion One also had runs (High strings and Low strings), but I don't know what it was worth or if it was flexible enough...


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## constaneum

EricValette said:


> Very good suggestions, thanks!
> 
> OT Orchestral Strings Runs can also be another option to try. It seems to me that SA Albion One also had runs (High strings and Low strings), but I don't know what it was worth or if it was flexible enough...


but the OT Orchestral Strings Runs sound lot different from the Berlin series right ? hmm


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## Jett Hitt

The rapid legato is a bit of a mystery to me. I have not really employed it successfully. There is such a disparity between the volume levels of it and the sustained legato that they don't really seem to mesh together very well. I have the same problem with some of the articulations in the recently ported Berlin Soloists.


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## jbuhler

Jett Hitt said:


> The rapid legato is a bit of a mystery to me. I have not really employed it successfully. There is such a disparity between the volume levels of it and the sustained legato that they don't really seem to mesh together very well. I have the same problem with some of the articulations in the recently ported Berlin Soloists.


The main legato will automatically trigger the rapid legato with the long sustain when the speed reaches a certain threshold. In general I find I need to turn down the volume even with the regular legato. Rapid legato LEG has short notes as the sustain and so it only works for passages with just fast notes. I usually try runs with the main legato patch, the soft legato patch, and the rapid legato patch and at different dynamic levels to see which works best. If I remember right, I have the first violin legato down 2db from the default and the rapid legato considerably more.


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## ALittleNightMusic

So how are folks liking it now? Have OT addressed the initial complaints? The best symphonic size string library?


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## muziksculp

ALittleNightMusic said:


> So how are folks liking it now? Have OT addressed the initial complaints? The best symphonic size string library?


No.


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## ALittleNightMusic

muziksculp said:


> No.


I was listening to the demos again in light of the MSS update and BSS does sound very good.


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## muziksculp

https://vi-control.net/community/th...ners-new-update-available.103066/post-4797803


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## ALittleNightMusic

muziksculp said:


> https://vi-control.net/community/threads/orchestral-tools-berlin-symphonic-strings—special-offer-for-berlin-strings-owners-new-update-available.103066/post-4797803


That sounds like it would require all new recordings then. I imagine that won’t happen anytime soon then sadly.


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## muziksculp

ALittleNightMusic said:


> That sounds like it would require all new recordings then. I imagine that won’t happen anytime soon then sadly.


Yes, it all depends on how much OT values this detail. They will improve the library dramatically if they can just re-do the VLNS 1 & 2 Sustains/Legatos, or just add to the current options a molto-vibrato preset for VLNS1 & 2. 

Meanwhile, I'm hoping that the upcoming Sonokinetic Strings library development team perfected this important detail.


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## jbuhler

ALittleNightMusic said:


> That sounds like it would require all new recordings then. I imagine that won’t happen anytime soon then sadly.


I mean it really depends on what you want. I've come to really like BSS. It does so much well on its own, it layers extremely well, it's reasonably agile for large string sections, it can do amazing crescendos where you can really feel the heft of the ensemble along with the increase in volume. 

It still has a bunch of small sample issues that were reported but not addressed in the last update. The violins don't have vibrato overdrive on their loudest layer like you might sometimes want, especially with the first violins, but there are other libraries to layer if that's what you need. And I find the default vibrato for the violins to work most of the time. Given the choice, I really prefer what they have provided for vibrato over molto vib at FF all the time.


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## Fry777

jbuhler said:


> And I find the default vibrato for the violins to work most of the time. Given the choice, I really prefer what they have provided for vibrato over molto vib at FF all the time.


I feel they made the decision to go for a more "modern" sound rather than a "romantic" one. 
And I agree, overtime you get less tired of a subtle vibrato than an overbearing one


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## Vladimir Bulaev

I've been seeing this stereotypical thinking lately. I don't understand, why limit a musical instrument in this way? And since when does modern mean only without vibrato, dead, rotten and expressionless? I think it's something else entirely. It's just that when recording boring long notes of the same type, the violinists were exhausted, tired, angry, without mood, perhaps hungry and did not show initiative. Of course, we don't know all the facts, but this is a more logical explanation than the modern sound for the symphonic size.


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## daviddln

Despite the new update, I still can't merge mics for Violins 1 & 2. Is it normal? Why don't they provide their own mic mixes for each new library like any other company does? Their merging mics thing doesn't work and it's really frustrating.


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## constaneum

daviddln said:


> Despite the new update, I still can't merge mics for Violins 1 & 2. Is it normal? Why don't they provide their own mic mixes for each new library like any other company does? Their merging mics thing doesn't work and it's really frustrating.


I think they've mentioned mic merging is related to SINE instead of BSS ?


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## jbuhler

daviddln said:


> Despite the new update, I still can't merge mics for Violins 1 & 2. Is it normal? Why don't they provide their own mic mixes for each new library like any other company does? Their merging mics thing doesn't work and it's really frustrating.


It’s supposed to be fixed in the next Sine update.


----------



## Jett Hitt

For my part, I am liking this library more and more. It is my main at this point. I am layering Violin 1 with AROOF and sometimes SB. It gives me that sound that I so loved with BS, but it has more weight and I don't have to futz with Capsule. I hated Capsule. Once BS is ported over to Sine, I might go back, but I doubt it. I do hope that they address the issues with the Rapid Legato, which seems to lack the agility that I think it should have. And of course, I would love it if they would rerecord the violins to match the cellos, but we all know that is not going to happen. There are things I don't like about BSS, but I wouldn't trade it for anything else.


----------



## jbuhler

Jett Hitt said:


> I do hope that they address the issues with the Rapid Legato, which seems to lack the agility that I think it should have.


Yes, though I find it more hit or miss than simply lacking. One passage it will navigate deftly, then the next, even a similar one, it won’t handle well at all.


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## muziksculp

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> I've been seeing this stereotypical thinking lately. I don't understand, why limit a musical instrument in this way? And since when does modern mean only without vibrato, dead, rotten and expressionless? I think it's something else entirely. It's just that when recording boring long notes of the same type, the violinists were exhausted, tired, angry, without mood, perhaps hungry and did not show initiative. Of course, we don't know all the facts, but this is a more logical explanation than the modern sound for the symphonic size.


+1000


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## muziksculp

I'm hoping we get some feedback from Orchestral Tools, to my post on the commercial forum section about this important detail. 


https://vi-control.net/community/threads/orchestral-tools-berlin-symphonic-strings—special-offer-for-berlin-strings-owners-new-update-available.103066/post-4797803


----------



## jbuhler

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> I've been seeing this stereotypical thinking lately. I don't understand, why limit a musical instrument in this way? And since when does modern mean only without vibrato, dead, rotten and expressionless? I think it's something else entirely. It's just that when recording boring long notes of the same type, the violinists were exhausted, tired, angry, without mood, perhaps hungry and did not show initiative. Of course, we don't know all the facts, but this is a more logical explanation than the modern sound for the symphonic size.


There's nothing dead about these samples simply because they don't go molto vibrato, and while yes of course I'd prefer the option of molto vibrato, I'd also prefer the option of less vibrato (and these samples are not non-vib even if they are less than what you want them to be), and given a choice of one or the other I'd take the more restrained version for general use.


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## Jett Hitt

jbuhler said:


> There's nothing dead about these samples simply because they don't go molto vibrato, and while yes of course I'd prefer the option of molto vibrato, I'd also prefer the option of less vibrato (and these samples are not non-vib even if they are less than what you want them to be), and given a choice of one or the other I'd take the more restrained version for general use.


Couldn't agree more.


----------



## dzilizzi

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> I've been seeing this stereotypical thinking lately. I don't understand, why limit a musical instrument in this way? And since when does modern mean only without vibrato, dead, rotten and expressionless? I think it's something else entirely. It's just that when recording boring long notes of the same type, the violinists were exhausted, tired, angry, without mood, perhaps hungry and did not show initiative. Of course, we don't know all the facts, but this is a more logical explanation than the modern sound for the symphonic size.


There's a problem with too much vibrato also. I was listening to a demo with CSS and I kept hearing this buzzy sound. I realized it was stacked vibrato from the chords being played. But then, no vibrato sounds very fake. I'm not sure what the answer is when dealing with really large sections. Live players can control it and, of course, it never is stacked like you get with a VI.


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## muziksculp

jbuhler said:


> There's nothing dead about these samples simply because they don't go molto vibrato, and while yes of course I'd prefer the option of molto vibrato, I'd also prefer the option of less vibrato (and these samples are not non-vib even if they are less than what you want them to be), and given a choice of one or the other I'd take the more restrained version for general use.


imho. If they can get the sustain/legato violins 1 & 2 to sound more alive, animated, the way the Violas, and Celli sound, then they have fixed the issue of the Violins sounding too static. 

The Violas, and Celli do not have molto-vibrato, yet they sound more alive, and vibrant quality, that has a stronger emotional impact when you play them. That's basically what I find missing in the Violins. 

I would most likely attribute that to the way the players were sampled, they were kind of holding back, and restrained when bowing these long articulations, they sound uptight. Maybe a glass of wine before the performance would have been helpful.  I don't know, but a Symphonic Violin section can sound so much more emotional playing sustained/legato notes than what the BSS offers. It's just too static, and lacks emotion.


----------



## dzilizzi

muziksculp said:


> Maybe a glass of wine before the performance would have been helpful.


Whine, um I mean wine, always helps! 

And if you have enough? You won't care what it sounds like. *offers wine to movie-goers* "Yeah, the music in this movie sucks, but have a glass of wine or three and you won't even notice!"


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## muziksculp

dzilizzi said:


> Whine, um I mean wine, always helps!
> 
> And if you have enough? You won't care what it sounds like. *offers wine to movie-goers* "Yeah, the music in this movie sucks, but have a glass of wine or three and you won't even notice!"


LOL.. Notice, I suggested the violinists have one glass of wine before the recording session, not more. We don't want them to play with too much emotion, that would be another issue to deal with.


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## dzilizzi

muziksculp said:


> LOL.. Notice, I suggested the violinists have one glass of wine before the recording session, not more. We don't want them to play with too much emotion, that would be another issue to deal with.


BOW FIGHT!  



But only with our col legno bows.


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## muziksculp

dzilizzi said:


> BOW FIGHT!
> 
> 
> 
> But only with our col legno bows.


LOL.. We don't want that to happen. 

So, one glass of wine should do the job.


----------



## jbuhler

muziksculp said:


> imho. If they can get the sustain/legato violins 1 & 2 to sound more alive, animated, the way the Violas, and Celli sound, then they have fixed the issue of the Violins sounding too static.
> 
> The Violas, and Celli do not have molto-vibrato, yet they sound more alive, and vibrant quality, that has a stronger emotional impact when you play them. That's basically what I find missing in the Violins.
> 
> I would most likely attribute that to the way the players were sampled, they were kind of holding back, and restrained when bowing these long articulations, they sound uptight. Maybe a glass of wine before the performance would have been helpful.  I don't know, but a Symphonic Violin section can sound so much more emotional playing sustained/legato notes than what the BSS offers. It's just too static, and lacks emotion.


The more I use the library, the less static they seem, especially in context. And the last update improved things in subtle but important ways. Even so, I find even after the last update there is still a bit of a dead spot in the first violins on the second dynamic layer from the top. There's not much increase in intensity from the layer below and then suddenly it all kicks in when you hit the top layer. But that's only with respect to the modwheel crescendo across dynamic layers, not in the sound of the samples themselves. And in context I rarely think about it and I never think, "wow these violins just sound dead" the way phase alignment in solo instruments sometimes has the effect of killing the sound of the sample. In general, it's a very moldable sound, which is perhaps why it also layers so well with other libraries when you want to do that.


----------



## muziksculp

jbuhler said:


> The more I use the library, the less static they seem


Are you having a few drinks when using the library ? That might be one of the reasons it's sounding better after using it for a while. (Just kidding).


----------



## jbuhler

muziksculp said:


> Are you having a few drinks when using the library ? That might be one of the reasons it's sounding better after using it for a while. (Just kidding).


Probably. Truthfully, I think a lot of it is working with the library regularly now for more than three months, both alone and layered with other string libraries. The library isn't perfect by any means, but it has lots of hidden strengths. Well, "hidden" is too strong, because it's not like there's some secret to finding them, but those strengths emerge clearly only with repeated use and hearing the library work in context. The library also just fits my workflow really well and serves my music better than other large section string libraries I've worked with.


----------



## tritonely

How many GB of RAM would be every instrumentgroup with one mic position on? Asking due to my 16GB of RAM and in most videos it tips on 8+ GB with all patches and a few mic position


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## Jett Hitt

tritonely said:


> How many GB of RAM would be every instrumentgroup with one mic position on? Asking due to my 16GB of RAM and in most videos it tips on 8+ GB with all patches and a few mic position


So with all articulations loaded, it looks like one mic position uses about 1.4-1.5 GB.


----------



## constaneum

Jett Hitt said:


> So with all articulations loaded, it looks like one mic position uses about 1.4-1.5 GB.


sames goes with my JXL Horns a6


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## tritonely

Jett Hitt said:


> So with all articulations loaded, it looks like one mic position uses about 1.4-1.5 GB.


Ah oke thank you very much for looking up! Unfortunately in my case a little bit too much for an orchestral template.


----------



## John R Wilson

How does this compare to something like Spitfire Symphonic Strings?


----------



## jbuhler

John R Wilson said:


> How does this compare to something like Spitfire Symphonic Strings?


I prefer the sound of BSS overall. SSS has quite a lot more articulations. If you are asking how much RAM SSS takes up, it depends on how you set it up. It looks like one instrument for SSS, with performance legato, legato performance, and sul G legato, core and decorative all loaded is roughly 800MB for one mic position at 18kb DFD buffer.


----------



## muziksculp

Hi,

Got a reply to my email from OT-Support.

Quote : The mic merging issue is being worked on for the next SINE version. Progress has been made, but I am afraid we do not have a set timeframe for its release.

In addition to that, I asked if they were planning to add a Molto-Vibrato patch for the BSS First Violins, Well... The Support-Tech wasn't aware they are planning on doing this, but told me he will forward it to them.

So.. Sadly, the wait continues. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## ProfoundSilence

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> Got a reply to my email from OT-Support.
> 
> Quote : The mic merging issue is being worked on for the next SINE version. Progress has been made, but I am afraid we do not have a set timeframe for its release.
> 
> In addition to that, I asked if they were planning to add a Molto-Vibrato patch for the BSS First Violins, Well... The Support-Tech wasn't aware they are planning on doing this, but told me he will forward it to them.
> 
> So.. Sadly, the wait continues.
> 
> Cheers,
> Muziksculp


I wouldn't hold my breath on expecting any company to rebook musicians for an articulation. It's not to say it can't happen, berlin strings and first chairs both got some post release love - but in general that's unlikely, considering that there's nothing actually wrong with the violin I's except that that it's not what other people wanted it to be? 

Really curious what is causing the issue for BSS, is it a file naming issue? Has to be something deeply rooted in the process considering how long it's been.


----------



## jbuhler

ProfoundSilence said:


> Really curious what is causing the issue for BSS, is it a file naming issue? Has to be something deeply rooted in the process considering how long it's been.


I'm wondering if it isn't a problem with the adaptive legatos and how those translate in the mic merging process. That's the main thing that BSS has that my other Sine libraries do not.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

jbuhler said:


> I'm wondering if it isn't a problem with the adaptive legatos and how those translate in the mic merging process. That's the main thing that BSS has that my other Sine libraries do not.


Don't the trumpets/horns/tuba have it in JXL? I think first chairs might as well. 

RR legatos is probably unique to it though


----------



## jbuhler

ProfoundSilence said:


> Don't the trumpets/horns/tuba have it in JXL? I think first chairs might as well.
> 
> RR legatos is probably unique to it though


I don't have those instruments, so I don't know. But if so, then there's another perfectly good theory ruined by actual empirical data!

You are also right about first chairs, but the layout for the first chairs adaptive legato is different, and triggered by velocity (for portamento). BSS is designed to switch between regular and rapid legato on the basis of the length of the note so it can switch to rapid legato for runs. I have no idea why that would make for any difference in implementation. I'm just trying to think about what capabilities BSS has that are not in the other Sine libraries.

ETA: maybe it is the RR legato, since that seems to be a brand new script and maybe the mic merge is just not yet set up to handle that situation.


----------



## John R Wilson

jbuhler said:


> I prefer the sound of BSS overall. SSS has quite a lot more articulations. If you are asking how much RAM SSS takes up, it depends on how you set it up. It looks like one instrument for SSS, with performance legato, legato performance, and sul G legato, core and decorative all loaded is roughly 800MB for one mic position at 18kb DFD buffer.


I had been considering BSS, but not too sure about it. What are the shorts and legatos like and how you finding the 1st and 2nd violins?


----------



## jbuhler

John R Wilson said:


> I had been considering BSS, but not too sure about it. What are the shorts and legatos like and how you finding the 1st and 2nd violins?


I like the violins quite a lot, though I may be in the minority on that. Some would prefer more vibrato at higher volumes; I've come to like them quite a lot just as they are. They also play extremely well with other libraries, and I very much like the combination of AROOF strings and BSS. But they sound great on their own too. They are very good at crescendos and adding body to the sound, so you feel the crescendo and swelling dynamics as well as the sound simply getting louder.

I also like the legato. It's mostly transparent, a few portamento-like transitions where you'd have hand position shifts. I actually wish it had triggerable portamento, and miss that more than molto vib, but since it takes on supplementation so well, you can go to something like 8dio Anthology strings and borrow its portamento if you find you really need it (the same is largely true for molto vib).

The legato is also reasonably agile, considering the large section size of the strings. This is something I think a lot of folks don't recognize about large sections. The gain of mass and silkiness of tone comes at the expense agility and detail. But as I said I find the legato reasonably agile. The runs (rapid legato) are imho on the whole less successful, a bit too precise and lacking in that characteristic blur, the pattern legato works reasonably well (better than most) for those inner part back and forth accompaniment patterns, but its still not perfect. The pattern legato sustain, confusingly labeled "pattern legato," is a non-vib sustain, so the library also offers that articulation, even though it's not advertised.

I find in the violins that there is a bit of dead spot in the legatos, as you swell from the second into the third (of four) dynamic layers. I've mostly gotten used to it at this point. Overall, it took me somewhat longer to find the sweet spots of this library, especially the violins, and working through quirks like this dead spot on the legato swell took practice as well. But I'm now to the point of having used it enough that I work as quickly and reliably with it as with any of my other string libraries of similar scope.

I think the shorts are very good within the limitations of this being a very large ensemble; it's not the library I'd turn to for super tight shorts. There are pizz, spiccatos and staccatos, with 5, 5, and 3 RR—a bit on the meager side, but it doesn't seem to affect performance. The library also has short and long marcatos, with 3 and 2 RRs, and even a sustained accented. The marcatos and sustained accent can also have legato added to them. I haven't checked the timing of the shorts, because it's something that I rarely find bothers me, even though I know timing of shorts is a concern of others. The shorts are designed more for conveying the weight of a large ensemble rather than for tightness, but within that constraint they are reasonably tight, and on the softer dynamic layers they are relatively nimble with the spiccatos especially.


----------



## John R Wilson

jbuhler said:


> I like the violins quite a lot, though I may be in the minority on that. Some would prefer more vibrato at higher volumes; I've come to like them quite a lot just as they are. They also play extremely well with other libraries, and I very much like the combination of AROOF strings and BSS. But they sound great on their own too. They are very good at crescendos and adding body to the sound, so you feel the crescendo and swelling dynamics as well as the sound simply getting louder.
> 
> I also like the legato. It's mostly transparent, a few portamento-like transitions where you'd have hand position shifts. I actually wish it had triggerable portamento, and miss that more than molto vib, but since it takes on supplementation so well, you can go to something like 8dio Anthology strings and borrow its portamento if you find you really need it (the same is largely true for molto vib).
> 
> The legato is also reasonably agile, considering the large section size of the strings. This is something I think a lot of folks don't recognize about large sections. The gain of mass and silkiness of tone comes at the expense agility and detail. But as I said I find the legato reasonably agile. The runs (rapid legato) are imho on the whole less successful, a bit too precise and lacking in that characteristic blur, the pattern legato works reasonably well (better than most) for those inner part back and forth accompaniment patterns, but its still not perfect. The pattern legato sustain, confusingly labeled "pattern legato," is a non-vib sustain, so the library also offers that articulation, even though it's not advertised.
> 
> I find in the violins that there is a bit of dead spot in the legatos, as you swell from the second into the third (of four) dynamic layers. I've mostly gotten used to it at this point. Overall, it took me somewhat longer to find the sweet spots of this library, especially the violins, and working through quirks like this dead spot on the legato swell took practice as well. But I'm now to the point of having used it enough that I work as quickly and reliably with it as with any of my other string libraries of similar scope.
> 
> I think the shorts are very good within the limitations of this being a very large ensemble; it's not the library I'd turn to for super tight shorts. There are pizz, spiccatos and staccatos, with 5, 5, and 3 RR—a bit on the meager side, but it doesn't seem to affect performance. The library also has short and long marcatos, with 3 and 2 RRs, and even a sustained accented. The marcatos and sustained accent can also have legato added to them. I haven't checked the timing of the shorts, because it's something that I rarely find bothers me, even though I know timing of shorts is a concern of others. The shorts are designed more for conveying the weight of a large ensemble rather than for tightness, but within that constraint they are reasonably tight, and on the softer dynamic layers they are relatively nimble with the spiccatos especially.


Thanks a lot, that's all really helpful! That is good that it plays and mixes well with other libraries. That is something I would want from this library as I already have quite a few good string libraries so it would be an additional library to use alongside the other string libraries that I have.

I do like the silkiness of tone that I can here in some of the demos. The amount of shorts is nice to have as well. I think I've been more inclined to get it after recently getting my first OT libraries; special bows 1 and 2, which I really like!


----------



## David Kudell

John R Wilson said:


> Thanks a lot, that's all really helpful! That is good that it plays and mixes well with other libraries. That is something I would want from this library as I already have quite a few good string libraries so it would be an additional library to use alongside the other string libraries that I have.
> 
> I do like the silkiness of tone that I can here in some of the demos. The amount of shorts is nice to have as well. I think I've been more inclined to get it after recently getting my first OT libraries; special bows 1 and 2, which I really like!


The shorts in BSS are really really good, I made sure to feature them heavily in the demo track I made for it, especially the dynamic range, so I ramped up from p to f with them.


----------



## John R Wilson

David Kudell said:


> The shorts in BSS are really really good, I made sure to feature them heavily in the demo track I made for it, especially the dynamic range, so I ramped up from p to f with them.



The shorts certainly sound really good. That is one of the reason why I'm tempted to get BSS. Nice to have the variety of shorts. The dynamic range also seems nice on BSS. 

Also, brilliant demo piece for BSS, sounds excellent and lovely piece, really enjoyed listening to it just now!


----------



## Jett Hitt

Like most of us, I have a bunch of string libraries. I don't really like any of them, but I like some of them a whole lot less than others. If I could keep only one, though, it would probably be BSS with BS as a close second. If I could keep two, they would be BSS and Vista. I love the combination of the two. I had been adding AROOF into the mix as well, but because of log problems that I detailed in another thread, I no longer use AROOF. (I am not sure I miss it.) As @jbuhler and several others have said, BSS layers really well with other libraries. I found BSS and CS2 to be a nice combination as well. Mostly I just find it to be a rock solid library. I do wish they'd breathe a little more life into the violins, but they are far from the worst I own. Again, if I could keep only one, it would be BSS.


----------



## John R Wilson

Jett Hitt said:


> Like most of us, I have a bunch of string libraries. I don't really like any of them, but I like some of them a whole lot less than others. If I could keep only one, though, it would probably be BSS with BS as a close second. If I could keep two, they would be BSS and Vista. I love the combination of the two. I had been adding AROOF into the mix as well, but because of log problems that I detailed in another thread, I no longer use AROOF. (I am not sure I miss it.) As @jbuhler and several others have said, BSS layers really well with other libraries. I found BSS and CS2 to be a nice combination as well. Mostly I just find it to be a rock solid library. I do wish they'd breathe a little more life into the violins, but they are far from the worst I own. Again, if I could keep only one, it would be BSS.


So you prefer BSS slightly more than BS. I suppose I have held off and been slightly hesitant to buy it because of some things that I have been reading about the library, mostly mentioning the issues with the violins and slight lack of life in them/vibrato. Although I do have Con Moto strings and assume this would probably mix very well with BSS.


----------



## RonOrchComp

Hi - 2 questions

1) did Daniel James do a walkthorugh for this? I dont see one on yt. If not, did someone else do a DJ-style video?

2) Is anyone using this library with the SINE Player in Windows7? How is it working?

Thanks!


----------



## jbuhler

John R Wilson said:


> So you prefer BSS slightly more than BS. I suppose I have held off and been slightly hesitant to buy it because of some things that I have been reading about the library, mostly mentioning the issues with the violins and slight lack of life in them/vibrato. Although I do have Con Moto strings and assume this would probably mix very well with BSS.


I don’t find the violins lifeless. Some folks look for a very particular sound out of violins and BSS doesn’t really deliver a full throated version of that sound. But I find the violin sound appealing and I especially like its low and mid dynamic range, which is not really calibrated to support and supplement a surge into the highest dynamic layer. It does that surge fine but it is also perfectly happy playing a tune mp to mf, and it can be charming and sweet in that dynamic range. Crossing dynamic layers is generally smooth, and as I noted you feel an increase in the weight of the ensemble as much as the increase in volume.

The library is generally not as detailed as BS, but it’s also not as fussy, so it programs much faster. It also has four dynamic layers, which gives it a good dynamic range that is partly responsible for the impression of adding weight in crescendos. In Sine it’s a breeze to set up the instrument the way you want, which can be a major pain in OT’s Capsule libraries.


----------



## Jett Hitt

John R Wilson said:


> So you prefer BSS slightly more than BS. I suppose I have held off and been slightly hesitant to buy it because of some things that I have been reading about the library, mostly mentioning the issues with the violins and slight lack of life in them/vibrato. Although I do have Con Moto strings and assume this would probably mix very well with BSS.


@jbuhler and I are on almost exactly the same page with BSS and BS. I would not say that BSS is better than BS. They are different beasts. Once BS is ported to SINE, I may again start using it. I just don’t like Capsule in Kontakt. It makes using BS less than pleasant for me. And I agree that the violins in BSS are very usable, good in fact. The cellos just really shine in this library, and you wish the violins were equally sparkly.


----------



## muziksculp

Jett Hitt said:


> The cellos just really shine in this library, and you wish the violins were equally sparkly.


Exactly what I think. 

The celli are wonderful, and very expressive. The Violins lack that little sprinkle of magic that the Celli have.


----------



## borisb2

Has anybody done a comparison between BSS and SSS regarding its overall sound? Like taking a snippet/ short track and running it through both.. Would be interested in that one


----------



## jbuhler

muziksculp said:


> Exactly what I think.
> 
> The celli are wonderful, and very expressive. The Violins lack that little sprinkle of magic that the Celli have.


I think these violins just sparkle in a different way than do other string libraries. The BSS violins are remarkably versatile given that they don’t really have an abundance of articulations. They do a lot of things really well and that’s maybe one reason they get along so well with so many other libraries. They don’t cloyingly ask you to admire everything about them. I think that’s a strength rather than a weakness and I’d hate OT rescripted the legato to get that at the cost of what it is doing really well now.


----------



## jbuhler

borisb2 said:


> Has anybody done a comparison between BSS and SSS regarding its overall sound? Like taking a snippet/ short track and running through both.. Would be interested in that one


I’ve done some and they are still posted on one of the BSS threads I think. But I’ve not gone through and redone them since OT released the updates. The two libraries give very different performances, but I usually prefer BSS. SSS has a lot more articulations though. And on some passages I do prefer SSS even on the basic articulations and legato.


----------



## David Kudell

Turn the spot mic +3db on the violins and you’re golden. Also, when Berlin Strings ports to Sine, you’ll be able to easily mix the two in the same Sine instance if you want to blend in the more intimate sound of the smaller section with the big section.


----------



## Akarin

RonOrchComp said:


> 2) Is anyone using this library with the SINE Player in Windows7? How is it working?



😳 Windows 7 is 12 years old. Didn't know anyone was still using it. How does it handle newer processors, recent SSDs and all?


----------



## novaburst

Akarin said:


> 😳 Windows 7 is 12 years old. Didn't know anyone was still using it. How does it handle newer processors, recent SSDs and all?


I still have a machine with Windows 7 not sure if you can use it for the latest processors as all the new motherboards are optimized for windows 10 but SSDs are working fine


----------



## RonOrchComp

Akarin said:


> Windows 7 is 12 years old.


EOL was 6 yrs ago. Support ended 1.5 yrs ago.

My processor and SSDs work just fine.

So, how does SINE work in W7?


----------



## novaburst

Sine works fine in W7 no issues even full support is no longer, but mostly use Sine in W10 application


----------



## RonOrchComp

novaburst said:


> Sine works fine in W7 no issues even full support is no longer, but mostly use Sine in W10 application



Thanks.

Maybe I will give it a whirl.


----------



## muziksculp

Hi,

I spent a bit of quality time with BSS today, and thought why not use OT-Berlin First Chairs to complement them ? 

So, that's what I did, and so far I'm loving the results of using Berlin 1st Chairs with BSS. 😎 ❤

If you have both these libraries, I highly recommend using them together. If you own BSS, and don't have the Berlin First Chairs, you might want to think about adding the Berlin First Chairs library. 

I should also add that OT-Berlin First Chairs is an amazing solo strings library, great for quartet writing, and solo performances. I really think it deserves more praise, and mention than it gets. The response to dynamics, and the expressiveness of this library is amazing ! 

I had quite a good number of WOW ! moments, and a big smile during my testing of these two libraries layered together. 😊

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## novaburst

muziksculp said:


> I had quite a good number of WOW ! moments, and a big smile during my testing of these two libraries layered together. 😊


You could have shown some examples, as all in some musical lines,or something


----------



## holywilly

BSS also works very well with VSL Elite


----------



## John R Wilson

jbuhler said:


> I don’t find the violins lifeless. Some folks look for a very particular sound out of violins and BSS doesn’t really deliver a full throated version of that sound. But I find the violin sound appealing and I especially like its low and mid dynamic range, which is not really calibrated to support and supplement a surge into the highest dynamic layer. It does that surge fine but it is also perfectly happy playing a tune mp to mf, and it can be charming and sweet in that dynamic range. Crossing dynamic layers is generally smooth, and as I noted you feel an increase in the weight of the ensemble as much as the increase in volume.
> 
> The library is generally not as detailed as BS, but it’s also not as fussy, so it programs much faster. It also has four dynamic layers, which gives it a good dynamic range that is partly responsible for the impression of adding weight in crescendos. In Sine it’s a breeze to set up the instrument the way you want, which can be a major pain in OT’s Capsule libraries.





Jett Hitt said:


> @jbuhler and I are on almost exactly the same page with BSS and BS. I would not say that BSS is better than BS. They are different beasts. Once BS is ported to SINE, I may again start using it. I just don’t like Capsule in Kontakt. It makes using BS less than pleasant for me. And I agree that the violins in BSS are very usable, good in fact. The cellos just really shine in this library, and you wish the violins were equally sparkly.


Thanks Jett and Jbuhler for all your advice on BSS, all really helpful. Just have one last question in regards to how wet or dry and flexible Orchestral Tools libraries are. How wet is BSS in comparison to something like SSS or BBCSO Pro. Does the library have a shorter reverb tail like BBCSO Pro or more like SSS with a very long reverb tail and very wet sound.


----------



## John R Wilson

holywilly said:


> BSS also works very well with VSL Elite


Sounds like BSS mixes well with a lot of libraries. Wonder how it would work with some of SCS close mics mixed into it.


----------



## Jett Hitt

John R Wilson said:


> Thanks Jett and Jbuhler for all your advice on BSS, all really helpful. Just have one last question in regards to how wet or dry and flexible Orchestral Tools libraries are. How wet is BSS in comparison to something like SSS or BBCSO Pro. Does the library have a shorter reverb tail like BBCSO Pro or more like SSS with a very long reverb tail and very wet sound.


I would call BSS somewhere between SSS and BBCSO, though you can probably make it a little dryer with the mics. I don’t have much experience with this side of the library because I am after the Teldex sound. But it is certainly not as wet as SSS. Hope this helps.


----------



## jbuhler

Jett Hitt said:


> I would call BSS somewhere between SSS and BBCSO, though you can probably make it a little dryer with the mics. I don’t have much experience with this side of the library because I am after the Teldex sound. But it is certainly not as wet as SSS. Hope this helps.


I would agree with this assessment. BSS seems to me to be ordinary wet as opposed to SSS, and as with most of the OT libraries, it's easier to bend BSS to something like Air, than it is to bend SSS to something like Teldex.


----------



## EricValette

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> I spent a bit of quality time with BSS today, and thought why not use OT-Berlin First Chairs to complement them ?
> 
> So, that's what I did, and so far I'm loving the results of using Berlin 1st Chairs with BSS. 😎 ❤
> 
> If you have both these libraries, I highly recommend using them together. If you own BSS, and don't have the Berlin First Chairs, you might want to think about adding the Berlin First Chairs library.
> 
> I should also add that OT-Berlin First Chairs is an amazing solo strings library, great for quartet writing, and solo performances. I really think it deserves more praise, and mention than it gets. The response to dynamics, and the expressiveness of this library is amazing !
> 
> I had quite a good number of WOW ! moments, and a big smile during my testing of these two libraries layered together. 😊
> 
> Cheers,
> Muziksculp


Indeed, it's a beautiful combo!

I also had big smiles with these simple mics settings :
BSS : Spot 1 +3db, Tree 0db
OT FC : Spot 1 +3db, Tree -6db
Overall volume of OT FC about -5db/-6db than BSS

Also curious to know your settings for this specific combo?


----------



## John R Wilson

Jett Hitt said:


> I would call BSS somewhere between SSS and BBCSO, though you can probably make it a little dryer with the mics. I don’t have much experience with this side of the library because I am after the Teldex sound. But it is certainly not as wet as SSS. Hope this helps.


That certainly does help. Sounds like it's probably more my type of library. I like something like BBCSO Pro; still wet but not too wet with much shorter reverb tails. Lot of flexibility with the mic positions as well. Sounds like BSS is more closer to that and really wet like SSS.

I'm probably more looking to use BSS to thicken up something like SCS when I want or for the additional shorts that can use alongside BBCSO Pros strings. Just tried mixing Special bows 1 and 2 legatos with SCS flautando legato and that sounded very nice!


----------



## Secret Soundworks

Does anyone else find the dynamics v/ Dynamic Curve of BSS a bit weird? When I play a sustained note or chord and crossfade from softest to loudest so from 0 to 127, around 110-ish CC it sounds like it kind of stops rising for a bit and then there is a second crescendo up to 127. I also noticed this much better when you just play sustains and move your Modwheel quite fast or just draw a faster steeper CC1 curve. It's not a linear sounding crossfade like in most other string libs I tried. It gets louder, then stops for a bit on like the 2nd highest layer and then goes up again.

Anyone else noticed this?


----------



## galactic orange

This might not be exactly what you are talking about, but @jbuhler mentions the top layer sustains:

Post in thread 'Orchestral Tools : Berlin Symphonic Strings'
https://vi-control.net/community/th...-berlin-symphonic-strings.103075/post-4736353


----------



## jbuhler

galactic orange said:


> This might not be exactly what you are talking about, but @jbuhler mentions the top layer sustains:
> 
> Post in thread 'Orchestral Tools : Berlin Symphonic Strings'
> https://vi-control.net/community/th...-berlin-symphonic-strings.103075/post-4736353


I think its actually the second layer from the top that doesn't really contribute to a crescendo in the way we expect. So it feels like there is this span where nothing is happening on the modwheel. I've come to accept this as a quirk of the instrument, and at this point I've acclimated myself sufficiently to it, that I'm no longer sure I want the behavior to change.


----------



## Secret Soundworks

jbuhler said:


> I think its actually the second layer from the top that doesn't really contribute to a crescendo in the way we expect. So it feels like there is this span where nothing is happening on the modwheel. I've come to accept this as a quirk of the instrument, and at this point I've acclimated myself sufficiently to it, that I'm no longer sure I want the behavior to change.


Yep. It's not that apparent if I ride the dynamics slower, but if done faster, I can clearly hear another crescendo / volume bump around 110+ CC. As you mentioned the 2nd layer from the top it feels like there's a deadzone Modulation going up but no increase in intensity, and then it goes up to the final layer.


----------



## Jett Hitt

EricValette said:


> Indeed, it's a beautiful combo!
> 
> I also had big smiles with these simple mics settings :
> BSS : Spot 1 +3db, Tree 0db
> OT FC : Spot 1 +3db, Tree -6db
> Overall volume of OT FC about -5db/-6db than BSS
> 
> Also curious to know your settings for this specific combo?


I would be very curious to know your exact settings for BSS +Vista + AROOF.


----------



## muziksculp

EricValette said:


> Indeed, it's a beautiful combo!
> 
> I also had big smiles with these simple mics settings :
> BSS : Spot 1 +3db, Tree 0db
> OT FC : Spot 1 +3db, Tree -6db
> Overall volume of OT FC about -5db/-6db than BSS
> 
> Also curious to know your settings for this specific combo?



Hi @EricValette ,

I'm glad you like the (BSS + FCs) combo.

I don't recall exact levels, but I'm sure I had the Spots the same as you at +3d, I don't recall the other mic levels, but I'm guessing very similar as well. the FCs a bit lower in the mix, they add more texture, and have a nice timbre as well that blends nicely with BSS. Sounds very rich.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## muziksculp

Hello @OrchestralTools ,

Any news about the Berlin Symphonic Strings (SINE) update, how much longer are we going to have to wait  ?

Any positive news you can share with us ? 

What about Berlin Strings (SINE) ? when can we expect them to be out ? 

Berlin Brass (SINE) ? Berlin Woodwinds (SINE) ? Berlin Perc. (SINE) ? 

Thanks.


----------



## muziksculp




----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> Hello @OrchestralTools ,
> 
> Any news about the Berlin Symphonic Strings (SINE) update, how much longer are we going to have to wait  ?
> 
> Any positive news you can share with us ?
> 
> What about Berlin Strings (SINE) ? when can we expect them to be out ?
> 
> Berlin Brass (SINE) ? Berlin Woodwinds (SINE) ? Berlin Perc. (SINE) ?
> 
> Thanks.


I'm genuinely really glad you keep up with these things. I want the Berlin Brass update, and I'm probably going to pick up the extra wind instruments once they hit Sine.


----------



## Soundbed

Casiquire said:


> I'm probably going to pick up the extra wind instruments once they hit Sine.


Which wind instruments are the extra ones? I only have the Arks and Times and found the Berlin naming / name changes slightly confusing (or confusing enough to forget / ignore).


----------



## Casiquire

Soundbed said:


> Which wind instruments are the extra ones? I only have the Arks and Times and found the Berlin naming / name changes slightly confusing (or confusing enough to forget / ignore).


The "additional instruments" expansion


----------



## novaburst

muziksculp said:


> What about Berlin Strings (SINE) ? when can we expect them to be out ?
> 
> Berlin Brass (SINE) ? Berlin Woodwinds (SINE) ? Berlin Perc. (SINE) ?


While this may be on the list of things to do I think it's clear from the new content from OT that they are not a priority, as the library's in question are working pretty ok in kontakt with no real issues.

All in all I think we can do with a Sine upgrade.


----------



## Dmitry

I am losing patience, advertising is not true, main feature is not work. I know a little about programming, this can be fixed for 1-2 day.


----------



## Evans

Dmitry said:


> I am losing patience, advertising is not true, main feature is not work. I know a little about programming, this can be fixed for 1-2 day.


I'm not sure about how easy (or not) it is to fix, but it is disappointing that one of the biggest features of SINE continues to be broken for one of OT's biggest releases in recent years, yet it continues to be touted as a major feature with - in my understanding - no mention of the issue on the SINE or BSS pages.

Heck, it's outright touted as a feature on the BSS page. As someone with about half of OT's catalog, it really lowers my perception of OT as the stand-up company that I experienced in prior years.


----------



## AEF

At this point BSS owners should be permitted to return the library. You cannot advertise a feature like this that doesn’t work and then expect people to just deal with it. It’s terrible terrible business.

How many libraries have they produced since BSS? Its really poor showing from OT.


----------



## holywilly

May I know what features of BSS is not working as advertised?


----------



## Soundbed

holywilly said:


> May I know what features of BSS is not working as advertised?


I think it’s mic merge. I’ve never really fully understood the appeal. So it’s not important to me (to not have it.)


----------



## VSriHarsha

Soundbed said:


> I think it’s mic merge. I’ve never really fully understood the appeal. So it’s not important to me (to not have it.)


You know there still is problem with the mic merge. Not just you, many pointed out. I think they’re working on the fix but it’s pretty uncertain when are they actually gonna update to the new version. Have you tried their support?


----------



## holywilly

Soundbed said:


> I think it’s mic merge. I’ve never really fully understood the appeal. So it’s not important to me (to not have it.)


Yeah, beside mic merging, I’m quite happy with what BSS delivered. I’d say mic merging is the feature of SINE player, not really a feature of BSS library.


----------



## Evans

holywilly said:


> I’d say mic merging is the feature of SINE player, not really a feature of BSS library.


It is, but

I don't think it's broken for every product, with BSS as the first people started noticing; and
It's specifically called out as a benefit on the BSS page.


----------



## VSriHarsha

holywilly said:


> Yeah, beside mic merging, I’m quite happy with what BSS delivered. I’d say mic merging is the feature of SINE player, not really a feature of BSS library.


I think BSS could be my 1st complete Big library from OT. I love the sound. OTOH, I may get the Phoenix Orchestra, maybe after this.

Although, I don’t see Berlin Symphonic Woodwinds & Brass. But I see Berlin Brass & Winds as well.


----------



## holywilly

Evans said:


> It is, but
> 
> I don't think it's broken for every product, with BSS as the first people started noticing; and
> It's specifically called out as a benefit on the BSS page.


That’s true, but free mic merging is a long overdue features that we are all waiting for. 

I have invested massively on SINE enabled libraries from OT, I do believe that next SINE update will be great, fingers crossed.


----------



## muziksculp

Evans said:


> it really lowers my perception of OT as the stand-up company that I experienced in prior years.


Exactly my perception now. No one else to blame but them.


----------



## jbuhler

Soundbed said:


> I think it’s mic merge. I’ve never really fully understood the appeal. So it’s not important to me (to not have it.)


The appeal is that it considerably lowers RAM usage if you are using more than one mic. The cost is SSD space equivalent of one mic position.

If you have a lot of RAM the lack of mic merge is not that big of a deal. But mic merge is one of the best features of Sine and it is quite remarkable OT hasn’t yet fixed this. (Reportedly it’s been long fixed for some users in a beta version of Sine, so that means either other users are still having issues or OT has decided it’s not worth pushing a new version of Sine only to fix this.) BTW OT still hasn’t fixed some sample and programming issues in BSS that were reported on release.


----------



## jbuhler

muziksculp said:


> Exactly my perception now. No one else to blame but them.


Unlike SF, which updates most libraries on at least a yearly basis, OT was never really known to do regular maintenance updates. They’ve been far better about that since the introduction of Sine. So despite the time it’s taken them to address the issues with BSS and Sine, I think the current state is still an improvement.


----------



## muziksculp

holywilly said:


> I do believe that next SINE update will be great, fingers crossed.


I really hope so. 

Given the amount of time they are taking to fix the mic-merge for BSS, I would guess that they are offering more than just that improvement in the next big update, maybe more features, faster library browsing, GUI improvements, ..etc.


----------



## AEF

SINE in general is more cpu intensive, more RAM intensive without true purge, more crash prone, and less full featured than any of their capsule versions. It was like this from day one and it remains today. 

Open a standalone SINE and let it stay open for a while. Crashes on close every time.

These specific new players outside of Kontakt have provided neither more stability nor more features for programming, with Vienna Synchron being the lone exception. 

They are marketed as being useful to the end user, but its really about money. 

I love OT libraries but absolutely despise SINE.


----------



## jbuhler

AEF said:


> SINE in general is more cpu intensive, more RAM intensive without true purge, more crash prone, and less full featured than any of their capsule versions. It was like this from day one and it remains today.
> 
> Open a standalone SINE and let it stay open for a while. Crashes on close every time.
> 
> These specific new players outside of Kontakt have provided neither more stability nor more features for programming, with Vienna Synchron being the lone exception.
> 
> They are marketed as being useful to the end user, but its really about money.
> 
> I love OT libraries but absolutely despise SINE.


I’m just the opposite. I very much prefer Sine instruments to the Capsule versions, which for me are much more RAM intensive. I’ve never had the standalone version crash on me, though I did have some issues with Amber inside of Logic when that was first released. But in general Sine has worked well, though it’s still not laid out optimally. The SF plug-in is the same. Kontakt is likewise the same, in almost every library I have.

In any case I don’t think it’s about money per se, and is more about control of sample player development and more robust copy protection.


----------



## AEF

jbuhler said:


> I’m just the opposite. I very much prefer Sine instruments to the Capsule versions, which for me are much more RAM intensive. I’ve never had the standalone version crash on me, though I did have some issues with Amber inside of Logic when that was first released. But in general Sine has worked well, though it’s still not laid out optimally. The SF plug-in is the same. Kontakt is likewise the same, in almost every library I have.
> 
> In any case I don’t think it’s about money per se, and is more about control of sample player development and more robust copy protection.


Do you not purge your Kontakt instances? If so, there is simply no way a RAM comparison can remotely be made. 

I can use four mics in berlin special bows in kontakt, fully purged, and have a few MB max in ram. In sine, it would be several GB simply bc one a single note is played, all articulations and mics are loaded in full.

This isnt really a setup specific thing. If using the plugins properly, SINE cannot come remotely close to Kontakt in terms of RAM usage.


----------



## muziksculp

SINE is very CPU efficient, this is one of the thing I really like about it. I only use the standalone version of SINE to install new libraries, and it never crashed when I quit the app. 

The MIC-Merge feature will help reduce the RAM footprint considerably, especially if it worked for BSS. Since the sound of the strings is fuller, and richer, when using multiple mics.


----------



## jbuhler

AEF said:


> Do you not purge your Kontakt instances? If so, there is simply no way a RAM comparison can remotely be made.
> 
> I can use four mics in berlin special bows in kontakt, fully purged, and have a few MB max in ram. In sine, it would be several GB simply bc one a single note is played, all articulations and mics are loaded in full.
> 
> This isnt really a setup specific thing. If using the plugins properly, SINE cannot come remotely close to Kontakt in terms of RAM usage.


It depends obviously on how many notes you use. With mic merge you can have one mic’s worth of samples loaded to represent those four. With Kontakt you have those four. If you purge and use few notes you’ll use less RAM but if you are doing a setting that uses a lot of notes, say more than a quarter of the samples available, the Kontakt instance will use more RAM. That’s assuming that the DFD settings are the same and discounting the RAM required by Capsule/Kontakt versus Sine.


----------



## AEF

jbuhler said:


> It depends obviously on how many notes you use. With mic merge you can have one mic’s worth of samples loaded to represent those four. With Kontakt you have those four. If you purge and use few notes you’ll use less RAM but if you are doing a setting that uses a lot of notes, say more than a quarter of the samples available, the Kontakt instance will use more RAM. That’s assuming that the DFD settings are the same and discounting the RAM required by Capsule/Kontakt versus Sine.


LOL the irony of saying “with mic merge” in a thread that is discussing the fact that despite promising such behavior IT CANT BE DONE WITH BSS. 

so in the kontakt version of your song you are using hundreds of notes and velocities, with all four mics.

but in the SINE version only one mic and fewer notes? LOL yes of course that would result in lower RAM.

take the same patch, use all four mics, purged in both players. play whatever you wish. then compare the ram usage. the SINE one will be many many many times greater bc from moment one it will load every single sample.


----------



## Simon Ravn

Secret Soundworks said:


> Does anyone else find the dynamics v/ Dynamic Curve of BSS a bit weird? When I play a sustained note or chord and crossfade from softest to loudest so from 0 to 127, around 110-ish CC it sounds like it kind of stops rising for a bit and then there is a second crescendo up to 127. I also noticed this much better when you just play sustains and move your Modwheel quite fast or just draw a faster steeper CC1 curve. It's not a linear sounding crossfade like in most other string libs I tried. It gets louder, then stops for a bit on like the 2nd highest layer and then goes up again.
> 
> Anyone else noticed this?


Yes. Its is dreadful. Like the legato sample volume jumps. I have given up on using the library until things are fixed.


----------



## Robin

My biggest concern with this whole issue is that I don't understand why quickly fixing a newly released product doesn't get absolutely highest priority after release in order to make the customers happy instead of giving the feeling to them of having bought abandonware with just throwing out new releases in a weekly rhythm afterwards.

It has been 8 months since BSS was released and it still doesn't work as advertised. In other news, I was recently asking OT support when to expect a fix on the glaring legato issues with Tallinn and got a reply that didn't give me any confidence that this issue was anywhere near the top of their priority list.

("We have this issue on our list and our editors will look into it when we get to Tallinn! I'm afraid I don't have an ETA at the moment.")


----------



## jbuhler

AEF said:


> LOL the irony of saying “with mic merge” in a thread that is discussing the fact that despite promising such behavior IT CANT BE DONE WITH BSS.
> 
> so in the kontakt version of your song you are using hundreds of notes and velocities, with all four mics.
> 
> but in the SINE version only one mic and fewer notes? LOL yes of course that would result in lower RAM.
> 
> take the same patch, use all four mics, purged in both players. play whatever you wish. then compare the ram usage. the SINE one will be many many many times greater bc from moment one it will load every single sample.


Don't be obtuse. I'm talking the same project using the Kontakt instrument versus using the Sine instrument. Assuming the samples take the same space in memory per sample (in fact I believe Sine's compression is better than Kontakt's) if you use four mics and purge in Kontakt you would exceed the RAM usage of the merged mic in Sine on that project once you have used one fourth of the samples in the Kontakt instrument. Math, how does it work.

In any case, for me, Sine is a much pleasanter experience than Capsule and, though it doesn't offer all the functionality of Capsule, it also offers some functionality that Capsule doesn't, especially with articulation management. I'm very much looking forward to Berlin Strings being ported to Sine, since it's such a RAM hog in Capsule—purged or not—that I've never really been able to work with the library very well.


----------



## Saxer

AEF said:


> SINE in general is more cpu intensive, more RAM intensive without true purge, more crash prone, and less full featured than any of their capsule versions. It was like this from day one and it remains today.


I'm in Logic on Mac and my experience is: Sine is stable here (never had a single crash) and much more CPU efficient than Kontakt or any other sample player, especially for legatos. Even Synchron Player needs more CPU.

So it probably depends on the system. And I think the Sine software developers are not the same people that sample the libraries. So it's not like "oh, there's a bug in Sine, so today I don't sample strings and better go coding".
No question there's the need to remove the bugs. But I'm sure there's a reason for the delay.


----------



## Getsumen

AEF said:


> LOL the irony of saying “with mic merge” in a thread that is discussing the fact that despite promising such behavior IT CANT BE DONE WITH BSS.
> 
> so in the kontakt version of your song you are using hundreds of notes and velocities, with all four mics.
> 
> but in the SINE version only one mic and fewer notes? LOL yes of course that would result in lower RAM.
> 
> take the same patch, use all four mics, purged in both players. play whatever you wish. then compare the ram usage. the SINE one will be many many many times greater bc from moment one it will load every single sample.


Partial sample loading is annoying for me, especially on a legato patch. Playing it when it's initially purged is honestly quite annoying when you have to wait a little bit for the samples to load, on top of the built-in delay that libs have.

Less impactful on the shorts and non leg stuff, but then again the amount of RAM those consume is significantly less anyways.




Saxer said:


> I'm in Logic on Mac and my experience is: Sine is stable here (never had a single crash) and much more CPU efficient than Kontakt or any other sample player, especially for legatos. Even Synchron Player needs more CPU.
> 
> So it probably depends on the system. And I think the Sine software developers are not the same people that sample the libraries. So it's not like "oh, there's a bug in Sine, so today I don't sample strings and better go coding".
> No question there's the need to remove the bugs. But I'm sure there's a reason for the delay.


I presume the Sine team initially was probably a bunch of temp workers / 3rd party right? Wonder how many are still working on it now and if that might be a reason for the slow speed.


----------



## ism

Getsumen said:


> Partial sample loading is annoying for me, especially on a legato patch. Playing it when it's initially purged is honestly quite annoying when you have to wait a little bit for the samples to load, on top of the built-in delay that libs have.


Depends on the speed of your ssd’s, among other factors, I should think. But I have many libraries for which, with a good SSD, realtime playing while purged works brllliantly. Which is hove I got along with only 8G for so long.


----------



## muziksculp

Getsumen said:


> I presume the Sine team initially was probably a bunch of temp workers / 3rd party right? Wonder how many are still working on it now and if that might be a reason for the slow speed.


If the initial SINE development team has changed, this would be a major headache, or even a nightmare for a developer like OT, and might be the reason for the super long delay in getting the update released. I really hope this is not the case.


----------



## Getsumen

ism said:


> Depends on the speed of your ssd’s, among other factors, I should think. But I have many libraries for which, with a good SSD, realtime playing while purged works brllliantly. Which is hove I got along with only 8G for so long.


Yeah definitely true. Definitely seems like that RAM really won't be the cap anymore compared to CPU. (I suppose it more or less already isn't when comparing the prices)



muziksculp said:


> If the initial SINE development team has changed, this would be a major headache, or even a nightmare for a developer like OT, and might be the reason for the super long delay in getting the update released. I really hope this is not the case.


Pure guesswork on my end!

but from their initial video:


They had "15 developers working for 3 years"
I'm not sure how big OT is, but I feel like even a larger company like OT wouldn't have 15 full-time devs. (And also per their linkedin page they don't have 15 full time devs. Not sure if that is fully accurate / updated though)
Hopefully, someone more knowledgeable can chime in and give more detail.


----------



## G_Erland

Im not quite sure exactly whats being discussed here - but with BSS i have recently been getting something like a «parcer error» when trying to load 1st violin mics past the tree. I will off course ticket - just maybe some will have seen it too and i can fix it myself? Pulling from an ssd, win 10. I personally couldnt be happier about sine, i wish for the browser to have better labeling and some kind of memory - when i open an instance in a project im not always sure which patch i have loaded, but its clean and rock solid here.


----------



## Soundbed

jbuhler said:


> Don't be obtuse. I'm talking the same project using the Kontakt instrument versus using the Sine instrument. Assuming the samples take the same space in memory per sample (in fact I believe Sine's compression is better than Kontakt's) if you use four mics and purge in Kontakt you would exceed the RAM usage of the merged mic in Sine on that project once you have used one fourth of the samples in the Kontakt instrument. Math, how does it work.
> 
> In any case, for me, Sine is a much pleasanter experience than Capsule and, though it doesn't offer all the functionality of Capsule, it also offers some functionality that Capsule doesn't, especially with articulation management. I'm very much looking forward to Berlin Strings being ported to Sine, since it's such a RAM hog in Capsule—purged or not—that I've never really been able to work with the library very well.


I don’t really follow your logic. Sine loads every note and dynamic level for an articulation, which will always be more notes and dynamic levels than I will play during a piece. So (purged) Kontakt will always use less RAM. Mic merge cannot change this fundamental lack of true dynamic purge in Sine as I understand. What am I missing?


Getsumen said:


> Partial sample loading is annoying for me, especially on a legato patch. Playing it when it's initially purged is honestly quite annoying when you have to wait a little bit for the samples to load


this sounds like a solvable disk speed issue.


----------



## shawnsingh

Soundbed said:


> I don’t really follow your logic. Sine loads every note and dynamic level for an articulation, which will always be more notes and dynamic levels than I will play during a piece. So (purged) Kontakt will always use less RAM. Mic merge cannot change this fundamental lack of true dynamic purge in Sine as I understand. What am I missing?



"purged Kontakt will always use less RAM" --> I think there's more subtlety than that and may depend on each person's workflow. It's necessary to load up many individual Kontakt instruments, and there has been a lot of talk on other threads that each NKI instance with capsule, even when purged, still takes up a lot of memory. When I heuristically tried to estimate, it seemed that each Kontakt Capsule nki would take up 200 MB more memory. Also to get some interesting useful workflows, like layering the sfz trill or tremolo articulations on top of the sustained trill/tremolo, I found it best to use separate instances connected to the same midi channel, so that the attack could be controlled by note velocity, while the sustain could be controlled by CC. I can't remember how much exactly, but I think the OT kontakt capsule part of my last template a year ago, which included Berlin Strings, first chairs, brass, and some Arks things, took at least 20 GB memory with everything purged!

I think that overhead is gone with Sine, but I don't know for certain.

As for "true dynamic purge", I do like such a feature and hope it's on OT's todo list!


----------



## jbuhler

Soundbed said:


> I don’t really follow your logic. Sine loads every note and dynamic level for an articulation, which will always be more notes and dynamic levels than I will play during a piece. So (purged) Kontakt will always use less RAM. Mic merge cannot change this fundamental lack of true dynamic purge in Sine as I understand. What am I missing?


If you use mic merge, Sine loads one mic position not four. The comparison is with Kontakt with four mic positions. The point is that Sine has to load fewer samples because it's only loading the equivalent of one mic position. So if you use a quarter of the samples in the purged Kontakt version (4 mic positions times 1/4 of samples), you are using the same number of samples as the Sine version with the merged mic position (1 mic position times all of the samples). Obviously if you use fewer mics in Kontakt, then you will need to use more samples to use the same RAM as Sine, so for three mic positions 1/3 of the sample pool in the Kontakt version to surpass Sine. And if you are using just one mic position in Kontakt, Kontakt will never use more than Sine, assuming the samples in RAM are of the same size, and Capsule and Sine used the same amount of RAM for non-sample operations. In practice for me, one mic position in Sine uses less RAM than one unpurged mic position in Kontakt, so Sine seems more efficient than Capsule but I haven't recently looked at my settings for Sine and Kontakt, so it's possible some of that difference is a different setting for DFD, the amount of the sample that is actually in RAM.


----------



## Michael Antrum

Correct me if I'm wrong, but surely it will depend on what is actually being played.

In the scenario where you are using 4 mics with Kontakt purged, rather than Sine (using mic merge), Sine will only consume less memory overhead if the part played uses more than 25% of all the notes of the playable range of the instrument per articulation - Which does seem a little unlikely for many instruments.

In addition it will also consume more SSD space.

(Obviously this assumes that the sample for each note is the roughly same size in data terms, but I doubt this will have that much effect. It also assumes mic merge is working).

Typically, with what I write, this wouldn't be the case with many instruments, and therefore Kontakt would consume less RAM for me overall, whilst being more stable.

I'm sure Sine will get there, just as Play has, but hopefully it will be a bit quicker to get updated. Generally, however, I would have thought purging would be of far greater importance to most Sine users than mic merge.


----------



## jbuhler

Michael Antrum said:


> In the scenario where you are using 4 mics with Kontakt purged, rather than Sine (using mic merge), Sine will only consume less memory overhead if the part played uses more than 25% of all the notes of the playable range of the instrument per articulation - Which does seem a little unlikely for many instruments.


Which is what I said. It depends on how long your piece is, how chromatic your writing, the dynamic range you use and the range of the instrument you use. I dare say with violin 1 and cellos that I exceed that threshold often for the articulations I use regularly. Other instruments (and articulations) less so. But on the whole the longer the piece and the more chromatic the writing, the less advantage purging gets you. And yes the cost of mic merging is space on your SSD. 

If I was working with Kontakt though I’d use only one mic for composition and break out the additional mics only at the end. But even with that and Sine’s occasional flakey behavior, I much prefer to work with Sine and there’s not one library where I have a choice (and I have most of the libraries available in both Kontakt and Sine in both formats) where I prefer to work with the Capsule version.


----------



## Evans

I'm split on Mic Merge's viability. I love it for when I do write in-DAW, because I'm less distracted by an incomplete sound, at a reduced RAM usage for my SINE instruments.

With that said, merged mics means you lose the ability to route each one to a different output for the final mix. So, I usually abandon them at that point.

It's a nice-to-have, and I'm more in the "disappointed that it's still being marketed despite being broken" camp.


----------



## AEF

Soundbed said:


> I don’t really follow your logic. Sine loads every note and dynamic level for an articulation, which will always be more notes and dynamic levels than I will play during a piece. So (purged) Kontakt will always use less RAM. Mic merge cannot change this fundamental lack of true dynamic purge in Sine as I understand. What am I missing?
> 
> this sounds like a solvable disk speed issue.


you arent missing anything. he’s anecdotally declaring SINE is better.


jbuhler said:


> If you use mic merge, Sine loads one mic position not four. The comparison is with Kontakt with four mic positions. The point is that Sine has to load fewer samples because it's only loading the equivalent of one mic position. So if you use a quarter of the samples in the purged Kontakt version (4 mic positions times 1/4 of samples), you are using the same number of samples as the Sine version with the merged mic position (1 mic position times all of the samples). Obviously if you use fewer mics in Kontakt, then you will need to use more samples to use the same RAM as Sine, so for three mic positions 1/3 of the sample pool in the Kontakt version to surpass Sine. And if you are using just one mic position in Kontakt, Kontakt will never use more than Sine, assuming the samples in RAM are of the same size, and Capsule and Sine used the same amount of RAM for non-sample operations. In practice for me, one mic position in Sine uses less RAM than one unpurged mic position in Kontakt, so Sine seems more efficient than Capsule but I haven't recently looked at my settings for Sine and Kontakt, so it's possible some of that difference is a different setting for DFD, the amount of the sample that is actually in RAM.


You cant merge mics with SINE with BSS. its the entire premise of this thread currently.

The shilling for OT on this is frankly weird at this point.


----------



## jbuhler

AEF said:


> you arent missing anything. he’s anecdotally declaring SINE is better.
> 
> You cant merge mics with SINE with BSS. its the entire premise of this thread currently.
> 
> The shilling for OT on this is frankly weird at this point.


Whatever dude. Sure I’ve said I prefer Sine. Nowhere have I said others can’t prefer Capsule. But you do you.


----------



## Soundbed

jbuhler said:


> If you use mic merge, Sine loads one mic position not four. The comparison is with Kontakt with four mic positions. The point is that Sine has to load fewer samples because it's only loading the equivalent of one mic position. So if you use a quarter of the samples in the purged Kontakt version (4 mic positions times 1/4 of samples), you are using the same number of samples as the Sine version with the merged mic position (1 mic position times all of the samples). Obviously if you use fewer mics in Kontakt, then you will need to use more samples to use the same RAM as Sine, so for three mic positions 1/3 of the sample pool in the Kontakt version to surpass Sine. And if you are using just one mic position in Kontakt, Kontakt will never use more than Sine, assuming the samples in RAM are of the same size, and Capsule and Sine used the same amount of RAM for non-sample operations. In practice for me, one mic position in Sine uses less RAM than one unpurged mic position in Kontakt, so Sine seems more efficient than Capsule but I haven't recently looked at my settings for Sine and Kontakt, so it's possible some of that difference is a different setting for DFD, the amount of the sample that is actually in RAM.


No, this is not how purge works in Sine vs Kontakt. Here’s my understanding:

If you purge Kontakt and play one note — whatever the mics — it loads that pitch.
If you purge Sine and play one note — whatever the mics — it loads every pitch at every dynamic level. The entire articulation. Everything. Purge is “temporary” but everything gets reloaded as soon as you play a note.

Please correct me if I’m wrong or if my observations differ from yours.




Michael Antrum said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but surely it will depend on what is actually being played.
> 
> In the scenario where you are using 4 mics with Kontakt purged, rather than Sine (using mic merge), Sine will only consume less memory overhead if the part played uses more than 25% of all the notes of the playable range of the instrument per articulation - Which does seem a little unlikely for many instruments.
> 
> In addition it will also consume more SSD space.
> 
> (Obviously this assumes that the sample for each note is the roughly same size in data terms, but I doubt this will have that much effect. It also assumes mic merge is working).
> 
> Typically, with what I write, this wouldn't be the case with many instruments, and therefore Kontakt would consume less RAM for me overall, whilst being more stable.
> 
> I'm sure Sine will get there, just as Play has, but hopefully it will be a bit quicker to get updated. Generally, however, I would have thought purging would be of far greater importance to most Sine users than mic merge.





jbuhler said:


> Which is what I said. It depends on how long your piece is, how chromatic your writing, the dynamic range you use and the range of the instrument you use. I dare say with violin 1 and cellos that I exceed that threshold often for the articulations I use regularly. Other instruments (and articulations) less so. But on the whole the longer the piece and the more chromatic the writing, the less advantage purging gets you. And yes the cost of mic merging is space on your SSD.
> 
> If I was working with Kontakt though I’d use only one mic for composition and break out the additional mics only at the end. But even with that and Sine’s occasional flakey behavior, I much prefer to work with Sine and there’s not one library where I have a choice (and I have most of the libraries available in both Kontakt and Sine in both formats) where I prefer to work with the Capsule version.


I think both of you are assuming Sine only loads what got played. Like Kontakt. It doesn’t. If you watch the RAM usage it loads everything again as soon as you play ONE note. Purge is more like a “disable” switch, and the whole patch reloads and re-enabled as soon as any notes get played in Sine, which is very different from Kontakt. Has nothing to do with mics. Let me know if your experience is different?


----------



## Michael Antrum

Soundbed said:


> I think both of you are assuming Sine only loads what got played. Like Kontakt. It doesn’t. If you watch the RAM usage it loads everything again as soon as you play ONE note. Purge is more like a “disable” switch, and the whole patch reloads and re-enabled as soon as any notes get played in Sine, which is very different from Kontakt. Has nothing to do with mics. Let me know if your experience is different?


No, I'm not. I think you have misunderstood what I have written - or perhaps I haven't expressed myself as clearly as I could have.

It has everything to do with mics. Because if you are using 4 mics in Kontakt you are loading 4 x the number of samples you would use when using 1 mic, and therefore 4 x the RAM.

Sine (when mic merges is employed) can create a 'mix' of 4 mics that takes the space of 1 mic in Kontakt.

But Since Kontakt has a proper purge facility, even with this advantage, it has to load in all the pitches in all the articulations, so unless you use more than 25% of the available pitches in the part, Kontakt will use less RAM....

Don't think I can express it any clearer than that....


----------



## Soundbed

Michael Antrum said:


> No, I'm not. I think you have misunderstood what I have written - or perhaps I haven't expressed myself as clearly as I could have.
> 
> It has everything to do with mics. Because if you are using 4 mics in Kontakt you are loading 4 x the number of samples you would use when using 1 mic, and therefore 4 x the RAM.
> 
> Sine (when mic merges is employed) can create a 'mix' of 4 mics that takes the space of 1 mic in Kontakt.
> 
> But Since Kontakt has a proper purge facility, even with this advantage, it has to load in all the pitches in all the articulations, so unless you use more than 25% of the available pitches in the part, Kontakt will use less RAM....
> 
> Don't think I can express it any clearer than that....


I think I finally understand you.

Thanks for explaining patiently. 

But let’s not say 25% of the available pitches in the instrument. I think that is misleading. It doesn’t take into account the possible number of mics available in an instrument, and it does not factor in dynamic ranges. In fact if an instrument is whole tone sampled, like many OT instruments are, you might be loading the same samples once while playing two pitches at the same dynamic level.

We agree Sine will load 100% of the articulation with one merged mic.

We agree Kontakt will load only the samples you need to play your part, with as many mics as you’ve enabled.

I see now that mic merged Sine will not automatically always load more RAM than Kontakt, because you will be doubling, tripling and quadrupling the number of samples loaded as you enable more mics in Kontakt. Thank you for clarifying, this was something I was missing. 

(I think the 25% part was getting me tripped up.)

The Kontakt math variables seem to include:

Number of pitches played
*How many of those pitches re-use the same samples due to whole tone sampling *
Number of dynamic levels played
Number of mics enabled 
Agree? Anything I missed?

So yes, if these factors exceed the entire range of possible samples in the articulation for a given part (maybe violin and cello for @jbuhler ) Mic merge has a RAM benefit at the cost of disk space.


----------



## AEF

Michael Antrum said:


> No, I'm not. I think you have misunderstood what I have written - or perhaps I haven't expressed myself as clearly as I could have.
> 
> It has everything to do with mics. Because if you are using 4 mics in Kontakt you are loading 4 x the number of samples you would use when using 1 mic, and therefore 4 x the RAM.
> 
> Sine (when mic merges is employed) can create a 'mix' of 4 mics that takes the space of 1 mic in Kontakt.
> 
> But Since Kontakt has a proper purge facility, even with this advantage, it has to load in all the pitches in all the articulations, so unless you use more than 25% of the available pitches in the part, Kontakt will use less RAM....
> 
> Don't think I can express it any clearer than that....


SINE cant merge four mics. It claims to be able to, and sold paying customers on that concept, but in the case of the library we are discussing IN THIS THREAD it cannot.


----------



## Michael Antrum

AEF said:


> SINE cant merge four mics. It claims to be able to, and sold paying customers on that concept, but in the case of the library we are discussing IN THIS THREAD it cannot.


I'm sure it will be able to in the future, but to be honest, I think a comprehensive purge feature might be more useful, depending on your workflow. 

Most of my Sine libraries I have as both Kontakt and Sine libraries, which is a bonus, but many are not....


----------



## ism

mic merge is 0.1% the functionality of the product and hardly a showstopper. It's pain it's not working, for sure. But a massive re-engineering of a flagship sampler like this was always going to be hard, expensive, error-prone and take some time to iron out all the flaws over all the various platform.

On the whole, Sine is already a net positive for most people, in their workflows, which is a win. Probably best to just be a little more chilled about the inevitability of bugs.


----------



## Casiquire

Call me a visionary, but I'm imagining a future where SINE can have *both* mic merge and purge. I ship team Merge/Purge. That would be the best.

If i had to choose one or the other though, I'd pick purge. It's a far less restrictive way of doing things


----------



## bvaughn0402

Call me a visionary, but I believe one day, Berlin Strings might actually release on SINE.


----------



## muziksculp

bvaughn0402 said:


> Call me a visionary, but I believe one day, Berlin Strings might actually release on SINE.


That's going to be a very special day, whenever it happens.


----------



## Ihnoc

Just to highlight a little of my experience regarding RAM usage here (I will attest I haven't focussed on CPU cost), comparing two loaded microphone positions in SINE vs Kontakt for Special Bows 1, 2 and First Chairs, my findings have been:

Memory footprint of the DAW (Cubase) is smaller using SINE
Memory footprint of the DAW is smaller when no microphone positions are loaded using SINE
Loading an articulation twice in an instance results in a negligible impact (by a massive margin) on Memory _and_ on project size (which affects save times) in SINE
The reason for this has *nothing to do with samples and using sample purging will not remove the effect*. Kontakt hosts a large amount of 'Object Memory' when using Orchestral Tools collections, at least by comparison to other libraries. Also consider that when saving a project, you are effectively saving a multi in Kontakt into that project - if you're using Kontakt alone, try saving all your instances as multis and you'll find the save size is similar.

Case in point, with no microphone positions loaded, I still see my template (which is basically all Orchestral Tools Kontakt libraries) eat up at least 8-10GB in object memory. The user can reduce this by breaking in to the Zones in Kontakt for what they don't use. Single patches are also more friendly to object memory, but increase the size of project saves. I've gone down from 480MB to 320MB moving back to multi-patches alone.

To sum up, besides the interface improvements (such as setting every articulation in a multi-patch to use CC as dynamics, which is so frigging time consuming), _this _is why these collections are exciting in being in a sample player that only needs to load patch data (which is in the region of ~100KB). The application is leaner on bloat to host and save, so you have more resources to have many positions, more instruments etc. This is all entirely separate to mic-merging.

I will attest I'm also disappointed that this isn't fixed for BSS as to me it is a stand out feature for SINE (benefits above exist in other recent sample players too), coupled with this being advertised as a feature, little to no communication and continued releases in spite of it - this has certainly reduced my brand perception, though these are still my favourite sounding instruments.

Besides that, despite all the benefits, things like errant crashes in SINE or save data corrupting to the point that projects just don't open mean I am warry to adopt it fully. My transition would be gradual even if they all dropped tomorrow.


----------



## Evans

Casiquire said:


> Call me a visionary, but I'm imagining a future where SINE can have *both* mic merge and purge. I ship team Merge/Purge. That would be the best.
> 
> If i had to choose one or the other though, I'd pick purge. It's a far less restrictive way of doing things


I completely agree. But at the same time, I have this scenario in my head:

*OT Staff A: *"Mic Merge! Let's give them Mic Merge for BSS and promote it on the product page!"
*OT Staff B:* "Oh, um, it's broken right now."
*OT Staff A: *"...... Mic Merge? Who cares about Mic Merge?! What a silly idea. But let's leave it advertised on all those product pages."


----------



## VSriHarsha

Ihnoc said:


> Just to highlight a little of my experience regarding RAM usage here (I will attest I haven't focussed on CPU cost), comparing two loaded microphone positions in SINE vs Kontakt for Special Bows 1, 2 and First Chairs, my findings have been:
> 
> Memory footprint of the DAW (Cubase) is smaller using SINE
> Memory footprint of the DAW is smaller when no microphone positions are loaded using SINE
> Loading an articulation twice in an instance results in a negligible impact (by a massive margin) on Memory _and_ on project size (which affects save times) in SINE
> The reason for this has *nothing to do with samples and using sample purging will not remove the effect*. Kontakt hosts a large amount of 'Object Memory' when using Orchestral Tools collections, at least by comparison to other libraries. Also consider that when saving a project, you are effectively saving a multi in Kontakt into that project - if you're using Kontakt alone, try saving all your instances as multis and you'll find the save size is similar.
> 
> Case in point, with no microphone positions loaded, I still see my template (which is basically all Orchestral Tools Kontakt libraries) eat up at least 8-10GB in object memory. The user can reduce this by breaking in to the Zones in Kontakt for what they don't use. Single patches are also more friendly to object memory, but increase the size of project saves. I've gone down from 480MB to 320MB moving back to multi-patches alone.
> 
> To sum up, besides the interface improvements (such as setting every articulation in a multi-patch to use CC as dynamics, which is so frigging time consuming), _this _is why these collections are exciting in being in a sample player that only needs to load patch data (which is in the region of ~100KB). The application is leaner on bloat to host and save, so you have more resources to have many positions, more instruments etc. This is all entirely separate to mic-merging.
> 
> I will attest I'm also disappointed that this isn't fixed for BSS as to me it is a stand out feature for SINE (benefits above exist in other recent sample players too), coupled with this being advertised as a feature, little to no communication and continued releases in spite of it - this has certainly reduced my brand perception, though these are still my favourite sounding instruments.
> 
> Besides that, despite all the benefits, things like errant crashes in SINE or save data corrupting to the point that projects just don't open mean I am warry to adopt it fully. My transition would be gradual even if they all dropped tomorrow.


Wow! It’s like you’re demonstrating, theoretically. Pretty easy & must say, very very helpful for people, particularly for those who wanna dive in the way of Sine. 
Seriously thanks a lot. I am even copying & pasting this post in Notes, for any help.


----------



## novaburst

I think it's a bit easy to demonstrate some issues on Sine and yes we would all like them to be fixed, 

But don't forget Sine is still more than userble and the mic merge quirk is only affecting BSS,


----------



## Soundbed

Ihnoc said:


> Kontakt hosts a large amount of 'Object Memory'


I see what you're saying. Although Object Memory seems to be a fraction of sample memory, increasing from a couple / few hundred MB to a portion of a GB even while sample memory increases and increases by multiple GB.



Ihnoc said:


> Also consider that when saving a project, you are effectively saving a multi in Kontakt into that project - if you're using Kontakt alone, try saving all your instances as multis and you'll find the save size is similar.



I don't usually mind about project file sizes except insofar as it affects save (and load?) times. Good reason to start using multis more often. Thanks!



Ihnoc said:


> _this _is why these collections are exciting in being in a sample player that only needs to load patch data



It is a nice change. I still enjoy using Kontakt.


----------



## Ihnoc

Soundbed said:


> I don't usually mind about project file sizes except insofar as it affects save (and load?) times. Good reason to start using multis more often. Thanks!


Yep just to be 100% clear, in case I mislead anyone, my findings are thus: adding to Kontakt a single Trumpet multi-patch with 12 articulations versus having 12 single articulation patches in Kontakt for the same articulations results in:

Higher object memory and smaller project size when using the multi-patch
Lower object memory and larger project size when using 12 single articulations
There are other differences:

The legato in a multi-patch versus the legato single patch are not the same. For one they do not null, and I found I heard greater differences in Berlin Strings than Berlin Woodwinds or Berlin Brass
One must control the mic-mix in every single patch. Double edged sword as you can now have a mix per patch
Highly usable patches like Trills Orchestrator and Zampano vibrato (which is a gem) only exist as single patches
I certainly have some gripes with SINE:

No numbers written on the poly articulations for velocity or CC positions
Can't lock poly articulations (so you can lose all the pixel perfect edits you just did in the dark because numbers aren't displayed...)
No trills orchestrator (which is a lovely workflow)
No con sordino emulation (but if you own Berlin Strings/Special Bows, have a dig under the hood for the filters that are applied, then _duplicate the entire set of articulations_ and send to a different output with said filter)
Crashes for no reason, seemly after loading an externally saved patch or moving articulations around (or because it is Thursday)
But the benefits of not having to wait a minute on every save of a tutti, 3 minutes to load the project and endless minutes for Cubase to unload all the RAM on closing are worth it, assuming it is stable.

I tried Berlin Symphonic Strings a bit at release and found Berlin Strings fitted me more (and was more detailed). This all coming from a hobbyist making transcriptions and covers, running off of Samsung 850 SSDs with 96GB RAM which was cheap enough to make a template on a single machine viable... Mileage for people actually spending their time making music may vary!


----------



## zeng

What's the difference between "berlin strings and berlin symphonic strings"? They both recorded at 
Teldex Scoring Stage. And which one should I buy first?


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

zeng said:


> What's the difference between "berlin strings and berlin symphonic strings"? They both recorded at
> Teldex Scoring Stage. And which one should I buy first?


Sorry to be that guy, but I guess I'll be that guy : this information is clearly stated on Orchestral Tools website, and has been discussed dozens of times on the forum.


----------



## AndrewY

zeng said:


> What's the difference between "berlin strings and berlin symphonic strings"? They both recorded at
> Teldex Scoring Stage. And which one should I buy first?


Berlin Symphonic Strings has larger number of players in each section.


----------



## zeng

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> Sorry to be that guy, but I guess I'll be that guy : this information is clearly stated on Orchestral Tools website, and has been discussed dozens of times on the forum.


Thank you that kind of guy...But I wonder people who have both to share their experiences soundwise. They sound similar to me on demos at OT website. It is not hard to write a word if you have both...


----------



## holywilly

…and layering both Berlin and Berlin Symphonic Strings yields truly lush, beautiful and detailed timbre.


----------



## zeng

holywilly said:


> …and layering both Berlin and Berlin Symphonic Strings yields truly lush, beautiful and detailed timbre.


It is good to know they work well together! Thanks.


----------



## dhmusic

zeng said:


> It is good to know they work well together! Thanks.


Is there something you want them to do that you're worried one or the other can't?


----------



## djrustycans

I think Berlin Strings all day long. It’s much more detailed and flexible with all the articulations. However, it possibly depends on the kind of music you are writing.


----------



## Hendrixon

zeng said:


> What's the difference between "berlin strings and berlin symphonic strings"? They both recorded at
> Teldex Scoring Stage. And which one should I buy first?


Sound wise think of them as SCS and SSS.

I just got BSS so take this with a grain of salt, on a quick test I didn't think BS/BSS blended well, not as well as SCS/SSS blend.
It wasn't bad, but when you blend libs you want to get more then the sum of the parts, something new.

I think SCS has enough "less" room then SSS which makes them blend well.
BS sounds the way it does because it has the right amount of room, but that "enough" gets blended with BSS multo room, not sure it works.

Again, it was a quick test after downloading BSS so I might change my view when I'll play with BS+BSS more.


----------



## Casiquire

zeng said:


> Thank you that kind of guy...But I wonder people who have both to share their experiences soundwise. They sound similar to me on demos at OT website. It is not hard to write a word if you have both...


I only own BS, but i think it's a better starting point. Way more comprehensive


----------



## muziksculp

Berlin Symphonic Strings is a much larger Section of Players than Berlin Strings. 

Note that Berlin Strings offers a lot more articulations compared to Berlin Symphonic Strings.


----------



## studioj

spent a little time this morning porting a CSS mockup to Berlin Symphonic Strings (with some Berlin Strings layered). https://vi-control.net/community/th...-berlin-symphonic-strings.103152/post-4972481

Overall a really nice sound this library... didn't have to work quite as hard at getting the mix together as with CSS. CSS has perhaps just a little more character in the sound (and the sections are not as large as BSS). Berlin Strings helped with detail and also brought out more portamento / transition sounds. BSS does not have the option of more exaggerated movement between notes as BS. The mix still favors BSS though, without those instruments 5-6 db louder.


----------



## jbuhler

Casiquire said:


> I only own BS, but i think it's a better starting point. Way more comprehensive


That cuts both ways. BS is also fussier, and much harder to use. I find BSS, by contrast, a very friendly library, and it plays well with others. I've found that to be less the case with BS—though I'm just starting to use BS with Sine. We'll see if it's less fussy in Sine. It is true that BS is a far more comprehensive library, and the smaller section sizes also makes it more flexible as well.


----------



## Casiquire

jbuhler said:


> That cuts both ways. BS is also fussier, and much harder to use. I find BSS, by contrast, a very friendly library, and it plays well with others. I've found that to be less the case with BS—though I'm just starting to use BS with Sine. We'll see if it's less fussy in Sine. It is true that BS is a far more comprehensive library, and the smaller section sizes also makes it more flexible as well.


I haven't dug too deep into it yet, but it doesn't seem particularly fussy to me. What makes you say that?


----------



## jbuhler

Casiquire said:


> I haven't dug too deep into it yet, but it doesn't seem particularly fussy to me. What makes you say that?


Experience with the Capsule version where everything took about twice as long to do compared to any of my other string libraries. I would often like the results of BS marginally better but it was just so slow working with it, the legato was a bit unpredictable and so hard to control, its RAM requirements were very high, it was difficult to get the patches set up correctly in the first place, because you only had twelve slots and there are way more articulations available than that, and because the number of articulations is very high it's a lot to keep track of, especially when you are starting out, and there is quite a lot of difference how each articulation is set up in terms of where the dynamic layers change and such. All those articulations are also what allows you to do so much with it, so it's also a positive, but I wouldn't call it friendly.

So far on Sine it's a bit friendlier, but you still can't set everything up easily in a single patch without using midi channels and the complications that arise from that, and the legatos remain a bit unpredictable, even if it is a bit clearer what's happening than in Capsule. BSS has legato issues too, but I find the latter much easier to predict and so can work around them without too much trouble. And there are fewer patches to manage (which is of course also a deficiency). Hopefully with use BS on Sine will also become similarly manageable.


----------



## Casiquire

jbuhler said:


> Experience with the Capsule version where everything took about twice as long to do compared to any of my other string libraries. I would often like the results of BS marginally better but it was just so slow working with it, the legato was a bit unpredictable and so hard to control, its RAM requirements were very high, it was difficult to get the patches set up correctly in the first place, because you only had twelve slots and there are way more articulations available than that, and because the number of articulations is very high it's a lot to keep track of, especially when you are starting out, and there is quite a lot of difference how each articulation is set up in terms of where the dynamic layers change and such. All those articulations are also what allows you to do so much with it, so it's also a positive, but I wouldn't call it friendly.
> 
> So far on Sine it's a bit friendlier, but you still can't set everything up easily in a single patch without using midi channels and the complications that arise from that, and the legatos remain a bit unpredictable, even if it is a bit clearer what's happening than in Capsule. BSS has legato issues too, but I find the latter much easier to predict and so can work around them without too much trouble. And there are fewer patches to manage (which is of course also a deficiency). Hopefully with use BS on Sine will also become similarly manageable.


I see, thanks for your thoughts. We'll see how i get along with it. I find every string library fussy so the bar is not very high as far as usability for me


----------



## shawnsingh

I think with (1) poly mode and (2) layering multiple articulations on the same keyswitch, it might be possible to create performance combi that fit within 12 keyswitches.

For example, marcato controlled by note velocity, layered with sustain controlled by CC, and the poly mode cc to switch between decrescendo, normal sustain, or crescendo dynamics?


----------



## jbuhler

shawnsingh said:


> I think with (1) poly mode and (2) layering multiple articulations on the same keyswitch, it might be possible to create performance combi that fit within 12 keyswitches.
> 
> For example, marcato controlled by note velocity, layered with sustain controlled by CC, and the poly mode cc to switch between decrescendo, normal sustain, or crescendo dynamics?


I did manage to set up a channelized multi for Kontakt that used velocity to fit keyswitching into two octaves of selectors. And another one modeled on the SF UACC that mapped everything to one keyswitch and used buttons for selecting. So yes you can do it. And the Sine version of this will be somewhat easier.


----------



## muziksculp

Now that we are in 2022, and the Mic-Merge issue of BSS is fixed.

Can we expect any further updates, improvements, or expansions to this library ? or should it be re-named Berlin's Ignored Symphonic Strings


----------



## holywilly

muziksculp said:


> Now that we are in 2022, and the Mic-Merge issue of BSS is fixed.
> 
> Can we expect any further updates, improvements, or expansions to this library ? or should it be re-named Berlin's Ignored Symphonic Strings


The mic merge function is fixed, however there’re weird artifacts when only using merged mic at higher register in legato articulation. 

I have reported the issue and OT is also acknowledged as a know issue which will be a prior fix in the next SINE update. 

So far some instruments from Berlin main and Symphonic Strings are infected, clarinet 1 to be more specific.


----------



## muziksculp

I would surely prefer using a very efficient true Purge feature, over this convoluted, and buggy mic-merge system in SINE. Hopefully they will add a Purge feature like the one Kontakt, and OPUS have. Much easier, faster, and they work with just a press of a button.


----------



## holywilly

Three more features I wish:
- improve keyswitch between polymap
- polymap lock feature
- more zones for articulations and able to tweak the trigger values. 

Fingers crossed.


----------



## muziksculp

Hi @OrchestralTools .

Thank You for the *Berlin Symphonic Strings* *Update 1.5* , adding Vlns1 Multi-Vibrato option , and all the Legato improvements, and new Portato articulations, updates


----------



## jbuhler

OT's servers must be really getting hammered. The update to BSS is taking forever to download.


----------



## Mike Fox

Alright, so am i just going crazy, or does the Sine verson of Berlin Strings sound very different (in a good way) than the Kontakt version?

Did they go back and create new recordings? Or is this just a matter of them balancing the mics out differently in Sine?

Or am i just hearing things?


----------



## Drumdude2112

That was a VERY (hotly) debated question late last year lol .


----------



## Johnny

Mike Fox said:


> Alright, so am i just going crazy, or does the Sine verson of Berlin Strings sound very different (in a good way) than the Kontakt version?
> 
> Did they go back and create new recordings? Or is this just a matter of them balancing the mics out differently in Sine?
> 
> Or am i just hearing things?


I am wondering the exact same thing. Where did the new shorts and mics come from? Why does Berlin Strings sound so much better than the 2015 walkthroughs?


----------



## Mike Fox

Drumdude2112 said:


> That was a VERY (hotly) debated question late last year lol .


I think i may have been a part of that debate, but I honestly can’t remember what the ultimate conclusion was lol.


----------



## jbuhler

Mike Fox said:


> Alright, so am i just going crazy, or does the Sine verson of Berlin Strings sound very different (in a good way) than the Kontakt version?
> 
> Did they go back and create new recordings? Or is this just a matter of them balancing the mics out differently in Sine?


I don't think they rerecorded anything, but I also thought they seem to have remastered the recordings in some fashion. I don't think it's just a rebalance, either, because comparing the tree mic to tree mic they sound different to me. I do think, however, that the difference is subtle and might even have to do with scripting—the crossfade points on the modwheel, how much overlap in the cross fades, etc. Some have speculated that the Sine compression might be a bit lossy, and so maybe that's a factor.


----------



## jbuhler

Johnny said:


> I am wondering the exact same thing. Where did the new shorts and mics come from? Why does Berlin Strings sound so much better than the 2015 walkthroughs?


The shorts have been renamed but they map from the Kontakt version.


----------



## Johnny

jbuhler said:


> I don't think they rerecorded anything, but I also thought they seem to have remastered the recordings in some fashion. I don't think it's just a rebalance, either, because comparing the tree mic to tree mic they sound different to me. I do think, however, that the difference is subtle and might even have to do with scripting—the crossfade points on the modwheel, how much overlap in the cross fades, etc. Some have speculated that the Sine compression might be a bit lossy, and so maybe that's a factor.


Interesting... Does remastering provide new serial shorts, staccato bold, martele bold and doubles? That's a heck of a remaster...


----------



## Getsumen

Johnny said:


> Interesting... Does remastering provide new serial shorts, staccato bold, martele bold and doubles? That's a heck of a remaster...


Those were all in the original Kontakt version


----------



## jbuhler

Johnny said:


> Interesting... Does remastering provide new serial shorts, staccato bold, martele bold and doubles? That's a heck of a remaster...


Those shorts had different names in the Kontakt version.


----------



## Johnny

jbuhler said:


> Those shorts had different names in the Kontakt version.


Wow! That is interesting


----------



## Vlzmusic

Folks, you are in BSS thread  stop discussing main BS, and bring some demos of the BSS 1.5 update, those who have it...


----------



## Mike Fox

jbuhler said:


> I don't think they rerecorded anything, but I also thought they seem to have remastered the recordings in some fashion. I don't think it's just a rebalance, either, because comparing the tree mic to tree mic they sound different to me. I do think, however, that the difference is subtle and might even have to do with scripting—the crossfade points on the modwheel, how much overlap in the cross fades, etc. Some have speculated that the Sine compression might be a bit lossy, and so maybe that's a factor.


I also wonder what the source recordings sound like. Maybe they were closer to what we hear in Sine? 

Seems like the tone is not only different in the Sine version, but there also seems to be more depth.


----------



## Jett Hitt

jbuhler said:


> OT's servers must be really getting hammered. The update to BSS is taking forever to download.


It seems to be huge.


----------



## dzilizzi

Maybe I will wait until next week to download. Did they say whether they fixed the merge mic problem?


----------



## Mike Fox

Jett Hitt said:


> It seems to be huge.


TWSS


----------



## jbuhler

Here's the mapping. The Sine Swells and Crescendos are contained in a multi in Kontakt as are runs. The glissando articulation was not transferred, at least not before today. I'm currently downloading the update so there may be changes.


----------



## lettucehat

Looking forward to hearing how the new material and legatos, including those in the normal Berlin Strings sound. Some of us have huge decisions to make


----------



## jbuhler

jbuhler said:


> Here's the mapping. The Sine Swells and Crescendos are contained in a multi in Kontakt as are runs. The glissando articulation was not transferred, at least not before today. I'm currently downloading the update so there may be changes.


ETA: Scratch that/ I'm downloading the update to BSS, not BS. Didn't they say there was an update to BS as well? It's not showing in my downloads.


----------



## Jett Hitt

jbuhler said:


> ETA: Scratch that/ I'm downloading the update to BSS, not BS. Didn't they say there was an update to BS as well? It's not showing in my downloads.


No, just BSS.


----------



## dhm42

I correct understand that after Update 1.5 I must re-create all my mic merge setup which I did? It would be great if the SINE did it automatically


----------



## jbuhler

Jett Hitt said:


> No, just BSS.


I've been downloading almost the moment that notification came through and I still haven't finished the violin 1...


----------



## muziksculp

I think they mentioned that they will be releasing Berlin Strings Updates in the coming weeks. They haven't been released at this time.


----------



## Jett Hitt

jbuhler said:


> I've been downloading almost the moment that notification came through and I still haven't finished the violin 1...


Oh me too, and I’m not even half done with violin 1.


----------



## Trash Panda

jbuhler said:


> Here's the mapping. The Sine Swells and Crescendos are contained in a multi in Kontakt as are runs. The glissando articulation was not transferred, at least not before today. I'm currently downloading the update so there may be changes.


----------



## ka00

Jett Hitt said:


> Oh me too, and I’m not even half done with violin 1.


The trick is to quit sine and wait 1-2 hours and then try again. The servers are getting hammered.


----------



## MelodicAdagio

Jett Hitt said:


> Oh me too, and I’m not even half done with violin 1.


It took me around an hour to get through Violins I. Their servers must be getting hit hard.


----------



## Evans

It took me five days nonstop to download TIME Macro + Micro. Some single mic positions were taking several hours each.

In 30 minutes, I've downloaded all violin and viola patches for Sordino. 

I have no idea why this happens. A very nice support rep couldn't figure it out.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

How big is the BSS 1.5 update? Wondering if I have enough space on this drive. Though SINE did start downloading and didn't warn me about disk space...


----------



## jbuhler

MelodicAdagio said:


> It took me around an hour to get through Violins I. Their servers must be getting hit hard.


It took me nearly 4 hours to get through violin I, which just finished.


----------



## Jett Hitt

jbuhler said:


> It took me nearly 4 hours to get through violin I, which just finished.


I still have an hour+ left.


----------



## Casiquire

Violin 1 took about two hours I believe but the vibrato sounds nice. It still doesn't sound like Vista or anything but it sounds a bit closer to the way the celli perform. (I still think the celli have a unique magic to them but at least now it sounds like the violins are part of the same ensemble)


----------



## Virtuoso

ALittleNightMusic said:


> How big is the BSS 1.5 update? Wondering if I have enough space on this drive. Though SINE did start downloading and didn't warn me about disk space...


Around 5GB. I only had 15GB free on my OT drive, so I moved a couple of folders to a spare drive to make some temporary space for the update. After moving them back again there's now 10GB free.

The whole download and install took about 20 mins - I must have got lucky with the servers!


----------



## jbuhler

Casiquire said:


> Violin 1 took about two hours I believe but the vibrato sounds nice. It still doesn't sound like Vista or anything but it sounds a bit closer to the way the celli perform. (I still think the celli have a unique magic to them but at least now it sounds like the violins are part of the same ensemble)


I'm hoping this also fixed the dead spot near the top of the violins on the modwheel where basically nothing happened...


----------



## lettucehat

muziksculp said:


> I think they mentioned that they will be releasing Berlin Strings Updates in the coming weeks. They haven't been released at this time.


I finally got through the whole video and didn't see them mention this explicitly, did they say this somewhere else like on VI-C? I think it would be the first time they are announcing upcoming updates to the main Berlin libraries. If they're anything like the large additions we've seen to BSS and if they take advantage of the updated legato I'm looking forward to it. But in the video I only heard them mention that they will generally be adding to the Berlin series as whole.


----------



## MelodicAdagio

My BSS download picked up speed and finished reasonably quickly after seeming to be stuck forever on Violins II. 

I was hoping this update would include a fix for the prominent thunk sound on the celli at the outset of the notes at and around middle C--from the A below it to the D above. It happens on most articulations and is annoying. I have to work around the note attack to hide it the best I can so that it kind of disappears in the mix. I reported the issue six months ago, and they acknowledged being able to reproduce it and put it on their bug tracker, but it unfortunately it didn't get addressed with this update.


----------



## FrozenIcicle

Not many people talk about BSS as their bread n butter and when it came out it had a lot of flaws and meh responses to its fast legato…. Does anyone still recommend it and use it often?


----------



## Virtuoso

MelodicAdagio said:


> I reported the issue six months ago, and they acknowledged being able to reproduce it and put it on their bug tracker, but it unfortunately it didn't get addressed with this update.


Just playing around with the updated Celli, there are lots of oddities. Notes randomly wandering from left to right, background booming noises, odd resonances, strange ricochet sounds, tuning issues. Maybe it somehow got mixed up with an upcoming aleatoric FX library? 

View attachment OTBSS.mp3


----------



## Nashi_VI

lettucehat said:


> I finally got through the whole video and didn't see them mention this explicitly, did they say this somewhere else like on VI-C? I think it would be the first time they are announcing upcoming updates to the main Berlin libraries. If they're anything like the large additions we've seen to BSS and if they take advantage of the updated legato I'm looking forward to it. But in the video I only heard them mention that they will generally be adding to the Berlin series as whole.


here


----------



## lettucehat

Nashi_VI said:


> here




Right, I saw that - nothing explicit but certainly suggestive.


----------



## Nashi_VI

lettucehat said:


> Right, I saw that - nothing explicit but certainly suggestive.


yeah to me it sounded like "just" a general legato update in the coming months, i am not thinking of new recordings but "just" tweaks for the existing samples thanks to the new version of Sine....but the BSS update certantly is promising...but also they got a lot of feedback (and backlash) at the launch of BSS soooo....i don't think there are many other products of them on Sine that had so much criticism/problems ....maybe the Woods are a close second...i mean they even had to make a video to compare the 2 legato in kontakt and in Sine.....personally i would love for a lot of their legato patches to be updated and not only for their Berlin series but for other libraries as well.
Better legato is never not a good thing even in already good libraries.


----------



## MelodicAdagio

FrozenIcicle said:


> Not many people talk about BSS as their bread n butter and when it came out it had a lot of flaws and meh responses to its fast legato…. Does anyone still recommend it and use it often?


I use it fairly often because I like the overall sound. I'm able to get what I'm looking for without a lot of tweaking. The aforementioned celli note attack thunk on a few notes is my only real complaint. I have to work around that or at least be sure it's not evident.

As for legato, those looking for a strongly slurred legato need to look elsewhere. But for me it's been fine. It looks like some legato updates may be coming. I haven't really had time to check out the latest update in any detail to see if there have been any changes there yet.

BSS does have its limitations. For instance, it would be kind of nice to have portamento, even if it's not used often. But having certain limitations, pros and cons is basically true of any string library. So BSS is definitely in my rotation, but certainly not the only string library I'm using.


----------



## Rudianos

Virtuoso said:


> Just playing around with the updated Celli, there are lots of oddities. Notes randomly wandering from left to right, background booming noises, odd resonances, strange ricochet sounds, tuning issues. Maybe it somehow got mixed up with an upcoming aleatoric FX library?
> 
> View attachment OTBSS.mp3


what articulation are you using - send details mics etc - cannot replicate


----------



## Akarin

FrozenIcicle said:


> Not many people talk about BSS as their bread n butter and when it came out it had a lot of flaws and meh responses to its fast legato…. Does anyone still recommend it and use it often?


Yes.


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## ALittleNightMusic

FrozenIcicle said:


> Not many people talk about BSS as their bread n butter and when it came out it had a lot of flaws and meh responses to its fast legato…. Does anyone still recommend it and use it often?


I bought BSS and do not use them very much at all. A lot of that has to do with SINE, but I also didn't find the new legato types very good. Will need to revisit after the 1.5 update. Pity because I really liked the demos.


----------



## muziksculp

The only complaint I had about BSS is the lack of the Molto-Vibrato for the Vlns. Everything else sounded great to me. It's a very good sounding symph. strings library, and now with the new improved legatos, expressive, and molto-vibrato for Vlns 1 , I'm guessing it's quite improved compared to it's original release. I haven't had the chance to download the 1.5 update yet, but will do so, and post some feedback about it.


----------



## reids

muziksculp said:


> The only complaint I had about BSS is the lack of the Molto-Vibrato for the Vlns. Everything else sounded great to me. It's a very good sounding symph. strings library, and now with the new improved legatos, expressive, and molto-vibrato for Vlns 1 , I'm guessing it's quite improved compared to it's original release. I haven't had the chance to download the 1.5 update yet, but will do so, and post some feedback about it.


Are you going to buy or complete this collection? I admit it's tempting me with this bundle offer compared to waiting for Cinestrings Pro which I know little about except that they wont be offering con sordino. Bummer. This however is a complete collection of extensive articulations as well. You mentioned some issues still with the Berlin main collections. Could you elaborate on what are some of those issues as I do not have any of the main libraries yet from OT.


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## Tinesaeriel

So:

During my wait for Pacific Strings, I bought this library on impulse - I wanna say, sometime in late November/early December. I think they were having a sale.

Back then, I was super impressed by the tone: really big sounding, but also really clear and detailed, and it responded nicely to the post-processing I usually put my pieces through. I even didn't mind the pared-down vibrato on the 1st violins. My biggest concern back then, and what ultimately stopped me using it was the legato. I won't be the first to admit that CSS has me spoiled rotten when it comes to legato, and it's set an near-unattainable benchmark that most other libraries haven't really been able to match. This library was no exception, and so, I didn't really use it.

I just checked out the latest 1.5 update, and my opinion is very changed. The legato plays, responds, and sounds so much better now, and the molto vibrato option absolutely makes the tone of the 1st violins much, much sweeter. It's not CSS level, but it's close enough that when I play on either keyboard or with musical typing in Logic, I'm decently satisfied with how it "feels" under my fingers, if that makes sense. It's improved enough that I can absolutely see myself using this for projects going forward.

Made this quick piece in about an hour to really dig into the sound of the legatos. Included both the final version and an unprocessed version (except for reverb and a side-only low cut EQ on the stereo output). 

Best,
Adam


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## ALittleNightMusic

Tinesaeriel said:


> So:
> 
> During my wait for Pacific Strings, I bought this library on impulse - I wanna say, sometime in late November/early December. I think they were having a sale.
> 
> Back then, I was super impressed by the tone: really big sounding, but also really clear and detailed, and it responded nicely to the post-processing I usually put my pieces through. I even didn't mind the pared-down vibrato on the 1st violins. My biggest concern back then, and what ultimately stopped me using it was the legato. I won't be the first to admit that CSS has me spoiled rotten when it comes to legato, and it's set an near-unattainable benchmark that most other libraries haven't really been able to match. This library was no exception, and so, I didn't really use it.
> 
> I just checked out the latest 1.5 update, and my opinion is very changed. The legato plays, responds, and sounds so much better now, and the molto vibrato option absolutely makes the tone of the 1st violins much, much sweeter. It's not CSS level, but it's close enough that when I play on either keyboard or with musical typing in Logic, I'm decently satisfied with how it "feels" under my fingers, if that makes sense.
> 
> Made this quick piece in about an hour to really dig into the sound of the legatos. Included both the final version and an unprocessed version (except for reverb and a side-only low cut EQ on the stereo output).
> 
> Best,
> Adam


Great to hear the feedback on the 1.5 legato. That was my disappointment with the initial library. Also pattern legato vs. actual recorded arpeggios was quite poor (I posted a comparison somewhere here months ago). Glad OT has spent some time improving this.


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## reids

Tinesaeriel said:


> So:
> 
> During my wait for Pacific Strings, I bought this library on impulse - I wanna say, sometime in late November/early December. I think they were having a sale.
> 
> Back then, I was super impressed by the tone: really big sounding, but also really clear and detailed, and it responded nicely to the post-processing I usually put my pieces through. I even didn't mind the pared-down vibrato on the 1st violins. My biggest concern back then, and what ultimately stopped me using it was the legato. I won't be the first to admit that CSS has me spoiled rotten when it comes to legato, and it's set an near-unattainable benchmark that most other libraries haven't really been able to match. This library was no exception, and so, I didn't really use it.
> 
> I just checked out the latest 1.5 update, and my opinion is very changed. The legato plays, responds, and sounds so much better now, and the molto vibrato option absolutely makes the tone of the 1st violins much, much sweeter. It's not CSS level, but it's close enough that when I play on either keyboard or with musical typing in Logic, I'm decently satisfied with how it "feels" under my fingers, if that makes sense. It's improved enough that I can absolutely see myself using this for projects going forward.
> 
> Made this quick piece in about an hour to really dig into the sound of the legatos. Included both the final version and an unprocessed version (except for reverb and a side-only low cut EQ on the stereo output).
> 
> Best,
> Adam


Thanks for sharing these examples. Agreed, I read mixed opinions on this library as well, especially in regards to the legato. These examples sound great. Now I dont know if I should continue to wait for Pacific Strings too. Either one of these is going to burn a big hole in the wallet. Haha. Difficult choice.


----------



## holywilly

After updating the Berlin Symphonic Strings, I don't see the molto vibrato option here, does that mean I have to re-download the library again?


----------



## constaneum

i'm curious with the update on BSS. How good is it with the extra molto vibrato ? especially on the violins. appreciate for some user demos.


----------



## holywilly

constaneum said:


> i'm curious with the update on BSS. How good is it with the extra molto vibrato ? especially on the violins. appreciate for some user demos.


Although I'm still missing the molto vibrato option, I firmly say that the legatos are much much better, more responsive and smooth.

Not just Symphonic Strings, legatos from entire SINE catalog have been improved, thanks OT for the new legato system.


----------



## Rudianos

constaneum said:


> i'm curious with the update on BSS. How good is it with the extra molto vibrato ? especially on the violins. appreciate for some user demos.


Here is something.






Berlin Symphonic Strings


THEY ADDED MOLTO VIBRATO TO BSS Finally ! :dancedance: Thank You for letting us know about this.



vi-control.net


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## ALittleNightMusic

holywilly said:


> After updating the Berlin Symphonic Strings, I don't see the molto vibrato option here, does that mean I have to re-download the library again?


You may need to re-add the sustain articulations. It doesn't seem to auto-update for currently loaded articulations unfortunately :(


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## constaneum

holywilly said:


> Although I'm still missing the molto vibrato option, I firmly say that the legatos are much much better, more responsive and smooth.
> 
> Not just Symphonic Strings, legatos from entire SINE catalog have been improved, thanks OT for the new legato system.


i need to download the latest SINE to try out.


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## Rudianos

holywilly said:


> After updating the Berlin Symphonic Strings, I don't see the molto vibrato option here, does that mean I have to re-download the library again?


Weird - try rescanning your libraries with the + button ... is content folder 744 showing updates on the dates?


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## ALittleNightMusic

Also, not sure I understand the reasoning behind ordering the vibrato slider as espressive (0), molto (50), subtle (127). No way to change the order.


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## Rudianos

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Also, not sure I understand the reasoning behind ordering the vibrato slider as espressive (0), molto (50), subtle (127). No way to change the order.


Yeah makes no sense!


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## savagedog

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Also, not sure I understand the reasoning behind ordering the vibrato slider as espressive (0), molto (50), subtle (127). No way to change the order.


may that the cc are constant through the collection or existing projects still use the programmed vibrato after update.


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## ALittleNightMusic

Pattern legato seems much improved to my ear / comparisons to some recorded arpeggios. This is shaping up to be a very nice update.

Now if only SINE could get proper purge. Loading up a single instrument section of BSS takes up 3GB of RAM!


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## holywilly

Rudianos said:


> Weird - try rescanning your libraries with the + button ... is content folder 744 showing updates on the dates?


no luck after rescanning the libraries and yes, the content folder 744 showing today's date.
I'm now re-downloading BSS, hope to solve this issue.


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## ALittleNightMusic

holywilly said:


> no luck after rescanning the libraries and yes, the content folder 744 showing today's date.
> I'm now re-downloading BSS, hope to solve this issue.


Did you try adding the Sustain articulations into a new, empty state of SINE?


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## muziksculp

holywilly said:


> no luck after rescanning the libraries and yes, the content folder 744 showing today's date.
> I'm now re-downloading BSS, hope to solve this issue.


I have no Molto-Vibrato showing up either in BSS 1.5

Here is what I have :





Does ver 1.5 show a Molto-Vibrato option in the GUI, if it does, then I'm missing it. Not sure what's the best way to fix this ?


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## muziksculp

Hi @Rudianos ,

Does the 1.5 BSS update show a Molto-Vibrato option for Vlns 1 ? I only see this :


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## muziksculp

Hi,
Can someone that has updated to BSS 1.5 post a screen shot of the Molto-Vibrato option showing up in the GUI. 

Thanks.


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## Rudianos

muziksculp said:


> Hi @Rudianos ,
> 
> Does the 1.5 BSS update show a Molto-Vibrato option for Vlns 1 ? I only see this :


It does. You are missing yours!


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## muziksculp

Rudianos said:


> It does. You are missing yours!


OK. Thanks, so what do you recommend I do to have it ? 

Re-download BSS ?


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## Rudianos

muziksculp said:


> OK. Thanks, so what do you recommend I do to have it ?
> 
> Re-download BSS ?


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## Rudianos

muziksculp said:


> OK. Thanks, so what do you recommend I do to have it ?
> 
> Re-download BSS ?


verify Orchestral Tools\SINE Player\Content\744 was changed

Try a + Collection rescan

Redownload


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## Rudianos

And you have the latest SINE right? I think you need latest to get this to moving


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## muziksculp

Rudianos said:


> verify Orchestral Tools\SINE Player\Content\744 was changed


Using Windows Explorer ? or ... ? 



Rudianos said:


> Try a + Collection rescan


How do you do a rescan ?

This is such a pain to deal with, OT needs to fix their updates, I see no reason I have to waste my time on this crap.


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## muziksculp

Rudianos said:


> And you have the latest SINE right? I think you need latest to get this to moving


Yes, the first thing I did was install the latest 1.1.0 SINE


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## Rudianos

muziksculp said:


> Using Windows Explorer ? or ... ?
> 
> 
> How do you do a rescan ?
> 
> This is such a pain to deal with, OT needs to fix their updates, I see no reason I have to waste my time on this crap.


On the library tab somewhere in the upper right above the instruments there should be a + collection symbol click it and proceed. I had to do that a few times after installs good luck good night and yes you can check your content folder with Windows


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## muziksculp

I think I will just re-download it. 

I see two options in the 'Settings' of BSS (1. Remove from Library 2. Delete from Disk) which one should I use to delete BSS, and re-download it ? and what does option 1. Do compared to option 2. ?


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## muziksculp

I just checked 


Rudianos said:


> verify Orchestral Tools\SINE Player\Content\744 was changed


I checked 744, and it has not changed. it shows it was Installed in 2021. Not sure what the update download did. I'm just going to re-install the library. I'm guessing I should use the Delete from Disk option to delete it, then re-download it from scratch. 

Thanks.


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## Rudianos

muziksculp said:


> I just checked
> 
> I checked 744, and it has not changed. it shows it was Installed in 2021. Not sure what the update download did. I'm just going to re-install the library. I'm guessing I should use the Delete from Disk option to delete it, then re-download it from scratch.
> 
> Thanks.


yes yes and here is that + Collection if you ever need it...


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## muziksculp

Thanks @Rudianos , I appreciate your help. 

I just deleted BSS, and it is re-downloading as I'm typing this reply. I think that's the easiest way to fix this. I still don't feel I should go through this, I will email OT Support to let them know that their update process didn't go well. Hopefully they look into this, and fix it. I know that I'm not the only one who has this issue.


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## ZeeCount

I had to delete some custom mixes that I had made first, but after I did that the new articulations appeared.


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## muziksculp




----------



## sundrowned

Tinesaeriel said:


> So:
> 
> During my wait for Pacific Strings, I bought this library on impulse - I wanna say, sometime in late November/early December. I think they were having a sale.
> 
> Back then, I was super impressed by the tone: really big sounding, but also really clear and detailed, and it responded nicely to the post-processing I usually put my pieces through. I even didn't mind the pared-down vibrato on the 1st violins. My biggest concern back then, and what ultimately stopped me using it was the legato. I won't be the first to admit that CSS has me spoiled rotten when it comes to legato, and it's set an near-unattainable benchmark that most other libraries haven't really been able to match. This library was no exception, and so, I didn't really use it.
> 
> I just checked out the latest 1.5 update, and my opinion is very changed. The legato plays, responds, and sounds so much better now, and the molto vibrato option absolutely makes the tone of the 1st violins much, much sweeter. It's not CSS level, but it's close enough that when I play on either keyboard or with musical typing in Logic, I'm decently satisfied with how it "feels" under my fingers, if that makes sense. It's improved enough that I can absolutely see myself using this for projects going forward.
> 
> Made this quick piece in about an hour to really dig into the sound of the legatos. Included both the final version and an unprocessed version (except for reverb and a side-only low cut EQ on the stereo output).
> 
> Best,
> Adam


Sounds great. The only thing is OT could have CSS tier legato. We know that from Staffpad and Pixelpoet. The staffpad berlin strings legato are CSS level. Admittedly from BS samples not BSS, but OT could do it if they wanted to, but chose not to.

Who chooses not to have CSS tier legato as an option?


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## holywilly

ZeeCount said:


> I had to delete some custom mixes that I had made first, but after I did that the new articulations appeared.


God helps me! I wish this post came up an hour ago!


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## muziksculp

holywilly said:


> God helps me! I wish this post came up an hour ago!


Did you get to re-install BSS, and can see the new Molto-Vib. option for Vlns 1 now ?


----------



## Virtuoso

Rudianos said:


> what articulation are you using - send details mics etc - cannot replicate


Just the default mics (Spot1+Tree). After downloading the update, I loaded up the Celli, played a few lines and within a couple of minutes was into 'wait, what was _that_?!' territory. 

From the audio clip:-

1. _Sustains_. F4-G4 with mod wheel around 100 - weird slapback sound.
2. _Sustains accented_. F4-G4 with mod wheel around 100 - weird slapback sound.
3. _Sustains soft_. Most prominent on B2 & C3 with full mod wheel - tuning and background noises.

There are others too...

_Marcato Short_. B1-C2 full mod wheel - odd harmonic overtone. It's in Marcato Long, Spiccato and Tremolo too but less prominent.
_Rapid Legato +LEG_. Playing the interval G3-C4 makes the C4 sound like a trill or a gliss depending on mod wheel position.
_Rapid Legato and +LEG_. A3 full mod wheel has a discordant 'boing' like a jaws harp!
_Pattern legato_. A3, D4 & E4 full mod wheel have a slapback scrape noise.


----------



## holywilly

muziksculp said:


> Did you get to re-install BSS, and can see the new Molto-Vib. option for Vlns 1 now ?


Yes, so far only Vln1 is installed, other sections are still downloading.


----------



## muziksculp

holywilly said:


> Yes, so far only Vln1 is installed, other sections are still downloading.


Hi @holywilly

OK. Great. You will surely enjoy the new update.

When I played the updated BSS Legato Vlns 1 I felt like it's a different library in terms of how much better the Legato feels under my fingers. I call this the Legato-Rubberband sensation, where you feel you are stretching a rubber band between your fingers as you play the various Legato intervals, it just feels, and sounds much more expressive, and the notes are naturally connected. This is what I feel when playing CSS Legatos. But here without the high amount of latency that CSS introduces to the playability/response time.

I'm curious to hear your feeling about the new BSS Legatos, and Molto-Vib.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## muziksculp

reids said:


> Are you going to buy or complete this collection? I admit it's tempting me with this bundle offer compared to waiting for Cinestrings Pro which I know little about except that they wont be offering con sordino. Bummer. This however is a complete collection of extensive articulations as well. You mentioned some issues still with the Berlin main collections. Could you elaborate on what are some of those issues as I do not have any of the main libraries yet from OT.


Hi @reids ,

Yes, I already have many of these Strings Libraries, I just need to purchase the Berlin Con Sordino Strings, and the Berlin SFX Strings, and I have the whole bundle, and that's what I did. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## MelodicAdagio

ZeeCount said:


> I had to delete some custom mixes that I had made first, but after I did that the new articulations appeared.


Thank you for this. I was looking high and low to find the molto vibrato. After deleting a custom mic mix, voila!, it shows up.


----------



## Casiquire

constaneum said:


> i'm curious with the update on BSS. How good is it with the extra molto vibrato ? especially on the violins. appreciate for some user demos.


To answer a couple of the things that I've noticed but that might not have been clearly stated:

(Edit--apparently the portatos are included in other instruments as well, but they did not seem to be included in my install. I'll update asI learn more.)

The new articulations, to my knowledge, are *only* included with the first violins. It reminds me of Berlin Strings when they added the most beautiful fingered legato (same gorgeous sounding legato as Berlin Con Sordino Strings BCSS) only to the first violins and left us wishing for more. In the case of BSS, the violas and cellos sound great without a molto layer, but the second violins could use one. I'd say the molto vibrato is pretty comparable to the standard expressive vibrato of the cellos. We could use portatos across the board too instead of just Violin 1. 

The legatos in BSS do sound improved across the board, which explains why we have to download updates for each section. It could just be power of suggestion but it does sound better when playing a melody. My impression is that it's improved in the scripting and the back-end of SINE, not actual new recordings. For my tastes though, the Rapid legato is still my preferred all-purpose legato, and the melodic is still a bit smeared. I guess this is how a real symphonic section sounds, but I'd only use those transitions on very slow melodies.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Casiquire said:


> To answer a couple of the things that I've noticed but that might not have been clearly stated:
> 
> The new articulations, to my knowledge, are *only* included with the first violins. It reminds me of Berlin Strings when they added the most beautiful fingered legato (same gorgeous sounding legato as Berlin Con Sordino Strings BCSS) only to the first violins and left us wishing for more. In the case of BSS, the violas and cellos sound great without a molto layer, but the second violins could use one. I'd say the molto vibrato is pretty comparable to the standard expressive vibrato of the cellos. We could use portatos across the board too instead of just Violin 1.
> 
> The legatos in BSS do sound improved across the board, which explains why we have to download updates for each section. It could just be power of suggestion but it does sound better when playing a melody. My impression is that it's improved in the scripting and the back-end of SINE, not actual new recordings. For my tastes though, the Rapid legato is still my preferred all-purpose legato, and the melodic is still a bit smeared. I guess this is how a real symphonic section sounds, but I'd only use those transitions on very slow melodies.


To correct one thing:

- portato was added to violins 1, violas, cellos
- molto vibrato was added to sustain, soft sustain, accented sustain for violins 1


----------



## Casiquire

ALittleNightMusic said:


> To correct one thing:
> 
> - portato was added to violins 1, violas, cellos
> - molto vibrato was added to sustain, soft sustain, accented sustain for violins 1


Strange, I just did the install and only have portatos on violin 1.


----------



## Germain B

I have portato on Violins I, Violas and Celli too.


----------



## muziksculp




----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> Strange, I just did the install and only have portatos on violin 1.


Did you install the update ? or re-installed the whole library ?


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> Did you install the update ? or re-installed the whole library ?


Installed the update. It updated all sections last night


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> Installed the update. It updated all sections last night


Did you try to re-scan the library data folder using the (+Collection) in SINE ?


----------



## jbuhler

Casiquire said:


> Installed the update. It updated all sections last night


Are you sure it's not off alone in an unseen column.


----------



## Germain B

Here, it is last on the list of articulation, like @jbuhler.
But as I only have two columns, it's clearer.


----------



## jbuhler

I think it's strange that @muziksculp has a different order to his articulations in Sine than I do. I didn't even know the order was alterable.


----------



## Germain B

Maybe the re-scan did that... I will try. The order of @muziksculp makes more sense.


----------

