# OMG whats wrong with PLAY?



## gsilbers (Jul 10, 2013)

im guessing i just starting to understand all those posts 

i recently got HS and HB silver and the sound is great. play has been ok until...

i need to do a big template on VEP. 


its like 10 mins to load. i used to have about double the instruments with LASS and it loaded faster. 

ive read its due to background loading. is that it? 

any tricks to load faster?

i also have kontakt libraries in VEP. all template about 20gb of a 24 gb ram i7 pc. 
when i was using LASS instead of HS and HB the ram reached almost 24gb and now with HS/HB its less and take way longer to load.


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## marcotronic (Jul 10, 2013)

I think it's mostly Mac people (like me) who complain about Play and its performance (it's running okayish for me, though, but I don't have any huge templates. Personally, I love HB (Gold) and recently" downgraded" my system from HS Diamond to Gold because I don't need 24 Bit samples (and their demanding system performance) and I'm fine with that one Mic position).

Nevertheless: I'm really looking forward to Play 4  Maybe I'll get HWW Gold one day, too.

Marco


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## TSU (Jul 10, 2013)

Putting libraries on the SSD gives about 3-4X faster load times.


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## jleckie (Jul 10, 2013)

it is not you. I HAD play on a mac. Had a very good PC built for VePro and PLAY. PLAY is the slowest to load and many times it even hangs VePro completely. 

I am officially done with PLAY. But for those that are hanging on I DO sincerely hope that version 4 makes it more PLAYable.


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## snattack (Jul 11, 2013)

Preaching to the choir here. I bought HS when it was released, and I find myself getting mad every time EW releases a new product instead of putting all efforts into polishing HS Diamond and finishing Play 4.

Yes yes, I realize that isn't possible, but other companies deliver libraries that work out of the box - at least in my template - and if not, fixes it within a decent time window instead of throwing "there are ton's of happy users out there, you must be wrong" in your face. "Sadly", HS sounds amazing, so as long as noone delivers a library with similar large Hollywood sound, I'll be stuck with it. The sounding result it was matters.


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## SamGarnerStudios (Jul 11, 2013)

PLAY has its up and down. If I didn't like their products as much as I do I'd switch over. Waiting for PLAY 4 before I buy a new brass library. It's hard to beat Kontakt. And the fact that most libraries use Kontakt but not all really bugs my OCD


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## gsilbers (Jul 11, 2013)

TSU @ Wed Jul 10 said:


> Putting libraries on the SSD gives about 3-4X faster load times.



not sure if i want to start changing hard drives for this library when the 30+ other libs are fine (on kontakt)


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## Wunderhorn (Jul 11, 2013)

In my current orchestral template I have exactly one PLAY instrument. The Gypsy violin, for which I haven't found a replacement yet. Guess what takes the longest to load...? The entire orchestra (Kontakt under VE-Pro) takes less time than the one Gypsy violin patch 

I also still use a few EWQLSO instruments, but I feel fortunate that I still have the Kontakt version.

Actually, I would not complain about loading speed so much, if the general stability was comparable to Kontakt on my machine.

Let's not forget - in the beginning of PLAY it was the Kompakt player, that was the real pain and for a long time NI did not deliver necessary bug fixes. I guess that was the motivation for EW to develop their own. At the time, a really good and courageous decision. Just now, after some years already, I tend to think that from my experience with it - the experiment has failed. I wish it had worked out better.

@gsilbers - If you can, put your libraries on SSDs - it would be one of the best hardware upgrades you ever do. Just start with the most frequently used ones. It will make a huge difference.


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## StevenOBrien (Jul 11, 2013)

Ugh, PLAY... I regret buying Hollywood Strings solely because of the exceptionally burdensome PLAY engine.

From what I've seen of previous threads, I'm sure someone will come in shortly and say to me "Why don't you contact support about your issues?". Well that's exactly it. If it was a Kontakt-based library, I would never have to contact support at all!

The library itself is wonderful though. I really hope PLAY 4 will fix many of the issues, but I really don't have very much faith.


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## dgburns (Jul 11, 2013)

It's way better on PC for one thing.

Once the templates are up,it works ok.Best to load at start of the day and keep loaded,otherwise,yes,you wait around a bit.

I put all play on a unique pc slave.Still causes grief and HB will crash when all of it is loaded and I quit vep.Not sure why.I found I prefer ssd drives.One for each lib preferable.I've seen guys create symbolic links to spread out the mics to different drives.Speeds up performance if you use more than the stage mics.

Here's to hoping Play 4 re-inpires me to continue with EW.As it is now,I get way more work done with the Kontakt libs as well.

good luck setting it up.


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## chadseiter (Jul 11, 2013)

Joy!


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## gsilbers (Jul 11, 2013)

dgburns @ Thu Jul 11 said:


> It's way better on PC for one thing.
> 
> Once the templates are up,it works ok.Best to load at start of the day and keep loaded,otherwise,yes,you wait around a bit.
> 
> ...



thx
yes i am using on a pc slave. 

once loaded its fine. and i like the sound. 

play its ok except fro that load time. 

well, also- the small print to figure out what channel each instrument is. tiny.
but thats ok. 

yep, seems ill have to load the template and take the dog for a walk. 

and still have to time to come back and start another thread called "things i can do instead of waiting for PLAY load times"  o[])


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 11, 2013)

Oh boy, here we go again.

I have zero problems with negative _opinions_ about what Play is/isn't or should/shouldn't be. I have a big problem with statements that are either factually incorrect or in my judgement may be misleading.

So everything I write next is FACTS, not opinion, unless I specifically say otherwise.

The Gypsy Violin 1 master patch in Play takes 20 seconds to load on my 2.0 Mac Mini i7 from a 7200 drive.

The Embertone Violin Full- All CCs patch in K5 takes 45 seconds to load on my 2.0 Mac Mini i7 from a 7200 drive!

The HB Diamond 2 Tpts Legato Slur patch takes 47 seconds to load on my 2.0 Mac Mini i7 from a 7200 drive.

So despite what your sweet partner told you, size matters  If a big HS patch _could_ be loaded into Kontakt, my strong suspicion is that it would still load darned slowly from a 7200 drive.

I am not saying that Play does not load more slowly than Kontakt. I honestly don't know because I have no instrument that I can load the identical patch in each. And while I am not a fan of it personally, Play 4 will have background loading, as Kontakt does.

I do not have the fastest PC in the world, an i7-950 Quad Core 3.06. But on it from a single SSD my biggest HS-HB-HOW template (which I don't need very often) loads in VE Pro 5 in 13 minutes. But it is about 17 GBs and uses 17 projects in VEPro 5. (se pic.)

Now it is possible that 20 GBs in Kontakt on my same PC would load faster. I don't know. And here I will be subjective. I don't care! I load it up in the morning and get my coffee and toast, It connects to Logic after I load my Logic template and it virtually NEVER hangs or crashes VE Pro 5 or Logic Pro 9 here. Maybe 4 times in 2 years depending on which version of LP9, VEPro 5 ,or Play 3.

So now you are of course entitled to your conclusions, but these are the facts that I can prove on my rig.


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## dgburns (Jul 11, 2013)

Jay-I think I was even handed in my post.That said,I use what gets me through to the finish line.I can't play around with stuff that falls down when I'm in a time crunch.I don't think I know all there is to know about the "ins and outs" of the Play system,but I can say it does fall down on me more than other things,like the NI stuff.

I don't always use the same template,because for me,it doesn't work well.I don't always write film score stuff.I'm sometimes loading in very specific things,and using combis of alternate mics from play libs because I go for a smaller sound.In those cases,I have to load/unload stuff,and when messing around with loading patches is usually when I notice the crashes or random errors from VEPro.Nothing I can't get around,but Play usually leaves me feeling aggravated when dealing with it in that way.

Play works,and it probably isn't worth harping on,but it is my experience,and it is a truthfull one from a guy working in the trenches.

Let's hope the next version rocks!


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 11, 2013)

You do realize that you can save patches with different mic positions, right? You do realize that you can have many, many different templates, right? 

Anyway, not going to argue opinions with people any more. I have come to realize that it is not a required part of my job nor is it effective because as Guy Rowland has in his signature, people believe what they want to believe,

But I did set the record straight by stating things I know to be factually true because I can prove them to be factually true and some things I believe to be true based on my experiences because I DO see that as par to of my job.


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## lpuser (Jul 11, 2013)

While Play is certainly not the fastest one, it is worth pointing out that loading large libraries can even cause KONTAKT to take a while. Whenever I load the big Prominy LPC Guitar patch, I can go to the kitchen and pour some coffee into my mug until the sound is loaded.


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## dgburns (Jul 11, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jul 11 said:


> You do realize that you can save patches with different mic positions, right? You do realize that you can have many, many different templates, right?



uh,duh...settings get saved AFTER a show or film reel is done not before.Or atleast while prepping sounds beforehand.I rarely use the same setups.

The different mics give such a vast sound difference that I play with the differing positions alot.It's not a one-size fits all for me.

I'm trying to keep this positive,I'm not attacking you.What would be a really great option would be to alter the mic levels independently,so I could just load all,and pull up the vol on the ones I want via midi cc.As it is now,I guess the only way would be to set the mics up on their own channel,but I haven't gotten around to doing that yet.

It would be great if play 4 allows us to access the mic volumes for each mic...

have a good day Jay and smile.


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## nicoroy123 (Jul 11, 2013)

One of the big reason why some patches takes a lot of time to load under Play is simply because EW libraries are collections of thousands of little tiny audio files sitting directly on the file system. 

So yes, I agree with Jay, the same patch under Kontakt would probably take a lot of time to load anyway. But the problem here is not the engine itself, but the fact that all these tiny audio files should have been contained in bigger monolith files, like some of Kontakt libraries.

I have been working as a storage admin for the last 15 years and I can guaranty you that for every computer system on the planet, handling thousands of little tiny files takes always a lot more resources that handling bigger files for the same size.

Take HS for instance. The libraries is roughly 300 GB but it contains more 100 000 little audio files! (if my memory is correct). Just Right Click / Properties on the sample folder and see how hard Windows will work ust to give you an overview of whats inside the folder. My HS is on SSD and it still take Windows more than 10 minutes just to count the amount of files.

So now imagine how hard any sampler engine will have to work to play you favorite Legato Patch, running around like crazy opening and closing all these little audio files.

Unfortunately, my guess is that Play 4 won't change anything to that, because Play 4 by itself won't change anything to the way the samples are organised. I hope I will be proven wrong but I doubt it.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 11, 2013)

dgburns @ Thu Jul 11 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jul 11 said:
> 
> 
> > You do realize that you can save patches with different mic positions, right? You do realize that you can have many, many different templates, right?
> ...



I am not taking it as an attack or trying to attack you. I have no way of knowing how much or how little you know so I am just offering suggestions.

You seem to work in a rather scattershot manner compared to most guys I know. Not wrong, but it does complicate things. A dozen well set up templates gets most guys through 90% of what they need to accomplish in my experience.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 11, 2013)

nicoroy123 @ Thu Jul 11 said:


> One of the big reason why some patches takes a lot of time to load under Play is simply because EW libraries are collections of thousands of little tiny audio files sitting directly on the file system.
> 
> So yes, I agree with Jay, the same patch under Kontakt would probably take a lot of time to load anyway. But the problem here is not the engine itself, but the fact that all these tiny audio files should have been contained in bigger monolith files, like some of Kontakt libraries.
> 
> ...



That all makes sense to me. My guess is that if I brought this up to them they will tell me that larger monolith files would not have allowed them to accomplish what they believe they have accomplished with HS.

Here is just the Mids.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Jul 11, 2013)

LASS Full - 16.4 GB with loss-less compressed audio files (approximately 24 GB uncompressed)

HS Diamond - 310GB

I don't know if I need to say anymore than that.


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## mk282 (Jul 11, 2013)

Kontakt works with monoliths that are max 1.9 GB in size (that was the limit back in the day with FAT16 filesystem, IIRC - Kontakt is over 10 years old now!), and it has no problems - and yes, monolithed instruments DO load faster, ESPECIALLY if you take care they are contiguous on your hard drive.

In any case it would be better to have 100 monoliths with 1.9 GB in size, than hundreds of thousands of smaller files. It's a burden to the filesystem and the hard drive.


So yeah. EW should have gone the monolith route. It would enhance the streaming and loading performance, GUARANTEED.


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## nicoroy123 (Jul 11, 2013)

mk282 @ Thu Jul 11 said:


> Kontakt works with monoliths that are max 1.9 GB in size (that was the limit back in the day with FAT16 filesystem, IIRC - Kontakt is over 10 years old now!), and it has no problems - and yes, monolithed instruments DO load faster, ESPECIALLY if you take care they are contiguous on your hard drive.
> 
> In any case it would be better to have 100 monoliths with 1.9 GB in size, than hundreds of thousands of smaller files. It's a burden to the filesystem and the hard drive.
> 
> ...



Exactly my point. Unfortunately, Play itself as an audio engine has been blamed for all sorts of sins. But for performances and loading times at least, it is probably more a martyr than the real source of issues.

Jay, it would interesting to know what EW developers have to say about this question. While it is probably to late for HS and HB to do otherwise, Play 4 would have been an excellent opportunity to rethink the way the samples are packaged, and by it really make a difference performance wise.

Regards
Nicolas


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 11, 2013)

mk282 @ Thu Jul 11 said:


> Kontakt works with monoliths that are max 1.9 GB in size (that was the limit back in the day with FAT16 filesystem, IIRC - Kontakt is over 10 years old now!), and it has no problems - and yes, monolithed instruments DO load faster, ESPECIALLY if you take care they are contiguous on your hard drive.
> 
> In any case it would be better to have 100 monoliths with 1.9 GB in size, than hundreds of thousands of smaller files. It's a burden to the filesystem and the hard drive.
> 
> ...



Above my pay grade obviously. I can only say that by the time HS was created, Nick and Doug already had quite a lot of successful libraries under their belt, including EWQLSO, so they must have had reasons for not going that route.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 11, 2013)

nicoroy123 @ Thu Jul 11 said:


> mk282 @ Thu Jul 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Kontakt works with monoliths that are max 1.9 GB in size (that was the limit back in the day with FAT16 filesystem, IIRC - Kontakt is over 10 years old now!), and it has no problems - and yes, monolithed instruments DO load faster, ESPECIALLY if you take care they are contiguous on your hard drive.
> ...



Perhaps, but Nicolas, they are so effing busy right now if I start even asking that kind of question, I risk being beheaded.


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## Diffusor (Jul 11, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jul 11 said:


> nicoroy123 @ Thu Jul 11 said:
> 
> 
> > One of the big reason why some patches takes a lot of time to load under Play is simply because EW libraries are collections of thousands of little tiny audio files sitting directly on the file system.
> ...




Doesn't VSL Dimension Violins have a million samples and that's just one mic perspective. And Vienna Instruments is super fast and efficient. I think it's more an issue with the lack of background loading in Play. Back when I still used Hollywood Strings in a template it would take 10 to 20 minutes to load and it would hold up everything else in line.


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## Daniel James (Jul 11, 2013)

Can you play patches in PLAY while its loading up? like how you can in Kontakt. Like the example Jay gave about Embertone Violin taking 45 seconds to load....for me it takes about one second then I can play it as it loads in. I havn't touched HS for like a year so its a genuine question.

-DJ


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## chimuelo (Jul 11, 2013)

Size matters, but I know Bidule is the fastest loading host out there.
Much faster than Reaper, which beats Cubase x 2-3 times.
Thankfully I can load my 11.8GB Template in seconds using Bidule.
But unfortunately sometimes the gigs are mostly automated which means a Native host which totally blows after using Bidule.
I can actually go to the Bar chug a Jager, and hit on the wait-tail cocktresses, come back as it's finishing up...... :evil:


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## germancomponist (Jul 11, 2013)

Hm, if a template needs a lot of time to be loaded, where is the problem? You can have a good tea or coffee at this time, so what?


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 11, 2013)

Daniel James @ Thu Jul 11 said:


> Can you play patches in PLAY while its loading up? like how you can in Kontakt. Like the example Jay gave about Embertone Violin taking 45 seconds to load....for me it takes about one second then I can play it as it loads in. I havn't touched HS for like a year so its a genuine question.
> 
> -DJ



Yes, you can play it, but it cuts in and out, the sound is inconsistent, the programming only semi-responsive etc. so wtf good is that? 

I turn background loading in Kontakt off. If a patch isn't fully loaded, it is not loaded for my usage.

But Play 4 is supposed to have background loading o I assume it will be similar.


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## Diffusor (Jul 11, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jul 11 said:


> Daniel James @ Thu Jul 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Can you play patches in PLAY while its loading up? like how you can in Kontakt. Like the example Jay gave about Embertone Violin taking 45 seconds to load....for me it takes about one second then I can play it as it loads in. I havn't touched HS for like a year so its a genuine question.
> ...



I think you are missing one of the points of background loading. Rather than wait just for Play to load everything before going on to the next in line you can go ahead and start loading everything simultaneously


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 11, 2013)

Diffusor @ Thu Jul 11 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jul 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Daniel James @ Thu Jul 11 said:
> ...



I get that. I just don't care.

Once again, in the morning:
1. I turn on the coffee maker.
2. I boot up the Mac, open VE Pro and start the Kontakt template loading.
3. I boot up the PC, open VE Pro and start the Play template loading.
4. I go have my first cup of coffee and toast or bagel.
5. I return and load my Logic template and head to the bathroom to eliminate the coffee.
6. I pour a second cup of coffee and start to write.

Life is good 

the Oh, and if I am writing under a tight deadline, I simply leave the computers on and VE Pro templates loaded, thus eliminating step 2-4 1/2


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## dannthr (Jul 11, 2013)

Hopefully as our drive bandwidths exceed 20Gb/s, stories like yours, Jay, will be a thing of the past!

I can't wait until template loading times are not even something people think to discuss.

Bring on the future!


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## Daniel James (Jul 11, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jul 11 said:


> Diffusor @ Thu Jul 11 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jul 11 said:
> ...



Thats Jay that doesn't care and not EW not caring right? 

For those of us who work in a single machine or do not have VE Pro, load as you go is essential. When you switch project you wait the 5 seconds for the background loading to kick in and you are working on your project, after about 10 seconds you the pops and clicks are in a workable state and you can continue to work (I swear Kontakt either loads in the most popular or the previous notes played first) Its pretty seemless. Just passing it all off as not caring is fair enough in your situation but for those with alternate workflows its a little dismissive.

Is PLAY's background load as instant as Kontakts? ie I click load patch then its ready to start being played (even with clicks and pops) 

-DJ


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## Blakus (Jul 11, 2013)

The thing I love about Kontakt is being able to purge all samples and then have them instantly load as they're played from an SSD. 

I will mention though that PLAY works without a problem for me, on a PC with samples stored on SSD it loads quite a large amount in ~40 seconds.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 11, 2013)

@ Daniel:

Obviously, because EW added background loading to Play 4, despite the fact that Jay doesn't care. And nobody at EW ever asked me if I care.

Let me say this strictly as Jay Asher speaking as openly as possible with absolutely no inkling that anyone else at EW feels the same way:

If you are trying to run large orchestral templates, Kontakt and/or Play, one machine or more, and you are trying to do it in one host without VE Pro or at least Plogue Bidule, you are IMHO fighting with one hand tied behind your back.

I have no idea yet how Play 4's background loading works. I am not a beta tester.


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## scientist (Jul 11, 2013)

Daniel James @ Thu Jul 11 said:


> For those of us who work in a single machine or do not have VE Pro, load as you go is essential.



not to mention those of us who don't really do templates. i never really know what instrumentation a particular project will entail, so having an even remotely standardized template is a pipe dream.

thanks to kontakt's various disk efficiency tricks i can jump in and get to writing quickly, no template and no fancy computer required. my solution: completely purged presets of my most commonly used kontakt instruments. the kontakt instances load in a flash and only load samples in as i play them. thanks to ssd: no pops, no crackles, and no wait times. as a project progresses and i've tried out a bunch of articulations i don't end up using, i just hit purge and memory is clean again.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 11, 2013)

That certainly is true for me also, but I have a dozen templates that are good starting off points. I simply cannot imagine the wisdom of starting totally from scratch every single project.

At least certainly, not for a film/TV composer. Within a film or TV show , there will be 2 or 3 basic instrument palettes or your score will not sound very cohesive or even coherent. I assume that is true for video games as well.

But of course,I forget, many of you are not picture composers. So for you all, I hope Play 4's background loading works s well as Kontakt's does.


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## scientist (Jul 11, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jul 11 said:


> At least certainly, not for a film/TV composer. Within a film or TV show , there will be 2 or 3 basic instrument palettes or your score will not sound very cohesive or even coherent.



of course. but starting with a blank project and exploring what instrumentation a project will include will inevitably lead to what becomes that project's template, as most cues will stem from that master project file. at least that's how it works for me, and kontakt just so happens to fit with that methodology perfectly.


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## dannthr (Jul 11, 2013)

I have some base templates, but I use rack presets/multi presets more now. Unfortunately, the motherboard I have now is a bit long in the tooth--so I'm maxed out on my RAM. Having a basic template that I then supplement for specifics is more economical.



I like templates for project cohesion though--keeps the instrumental palette consistent.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 11, 2013)

picture or not picture, jumping off points are a Good Thing in my view. ESPECIALLY orchestral templates, big band templates, general electronica templates, basic rock templates, Orchestral/electronic hybrid templates....hmmm. I guess I just think templates are a Good Thing.


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## scientist (Jul 11, 2013)

dannthr @ Thu Jul 11 said:


> I have some base templates, but I use rack presets/multi presets more now.



that's how i roll, too. i press one button on my controller and it loads all of sable (purged, of course!).


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## Guy Rowland (Jul 12, 2013)

Forgive me Jay as I'm sure you've already said this somewhere, but do you have SSDs? I think that fundamentally you're failing to appreciate the revolution that is Background Loading. There are no clicks and pops with SSD. You might get the very occasional drop off once or twice, but in terms of writing it's a non-issue imo.

It's cool that you've built a daily routine to work around loading times, but it's pretty common for me to be loading a few times a day - reboots for various reasons, maybe I'll do a short later session etc. I'm not 9-5 mon-fri with the composing. With fully purged background loading I have a huge template that loads in 2-3 minutes. More importantly, I can have that huge template on one machine, and it works.

Play is unquestionably vastly inferior to Kontakt and VI Pro when it comes to features. Play 4 will certainly not address all of the Play shortcomings, but Background Loading is a very big deal, possibly the biggest single omission. The devil will be in the detail - does it perform anything like as well as Kontakt's implementation, which makes it such a revolutionary feature. 

In the meantime Jay, why not talk it up? It's good news!


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 12, 2013)

When Play 4 comes out, there will no doubt be a list of its features. As EW's Online Coordinator, any feature that makes even one user happy makes me happy.


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## dgburns (Jul 12, 2013)

scientist @ Fri Jul 12 said:


> Daniel James @ Thu Jul 11 said:
> 
> 
> > For those of us who work in a single machine or do not have VE Pro, load as you go is essential.
> ...



So this is exactly what I was getting at as well.I've spent months making templates of huge orchestral setups,and even gotten to remote loading them with Applescripts triggered by custom buttons assigned on the Lemur so I don't even need to menu dive on Vepro.

Then along comes a project that essentially requires a fresh new sound palette that makes loading a ready made template a trip down the wrong road.Seems I find more value in really honing an entire palette based on what the new project needs,not to mention that you rethink what you took for granted on any previous project.
Bothers me when people minimize the aspect of going for new sounds in favour of static templates,just because it's what "others" do.

I don't want to sound like any of you.I assume you all want to sound original too.Why use the same templates?.....

Cliff Martinez sometimes starts from a clean empty template.His stuff is wonderfully original.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 12, 2013)

I don't care about sounding original, I care about serving the picture.

I have so many templates, it is easy to pick a couple and modify them for each project. And then ,at the end of the project, I now have a few more. It is only disk space and HDs are heap.

The key is not having just "a template" but multiple templates of differing sizes and combos of instruments.


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## Daniel James (Jul 12, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jul 11 said:


> @ Daniel:
> If you are trying to run large orchestral templates, Kontakt and/or Play, one machine or more, and you are trying to do it in one host without VE Pro or at least Plogue Bidule, you are IMHO fighting with one hand tied behind your back.



As guy mentioned earlier, the background loading makes loading as you go a non issue. I have zero problems working without a sample machine or VEPro for any project that doesn't include PLAY (well when I used it last which was a while back)

With regards to templates. My 'template consists of 5 empty instances of Kontakt with pre set up midi lanes, I never have any instruments preloaded, I dislike the idea of all the system resources being taken up before I touch a key so I load as I go. Background loading works just fine here, and it also allows me to try things on the fly. I have always seen having a preset template as a clear way to crush any creativity in your writing. You already have you instrument choices laid out for you which means the music starts at your fingers and not in your imagination....which is where the ideas SHOULD be coming from. IMO

-DJ


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 12, 2013)

Daniel James @ Fri Jul 12 said:


> I have always seen having a preset template as a clear way to crush any creativity in your writing. You already have you instrument choices laid out for you which means the music starts at your fingers and not in your imagination....which is where the ideas SHOULD be coming from. IMO
> 
> -DJ



Nonsense. Because you start with a template does not mean you have to rigidly adhere to it like a robot. If John Williams sits down to write with a score pad that has the instruments laid out for 8 line sketches, as he does, does that limit his creativity? 

I hear the music in my head before I decide which instrument and articulation I will reach for in my template, so my creativity is only limited by my imagination and then what the samples can and cannot do well.

If you like your workflow, you like your workflow and that is fine but if you took a poll of working composers who must meet deadlines, and asked them if they work from templates, you will find a very large majority do.


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## Daniel James (Jul 12, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Jul 12 said:


> Daniel James @ Fri Jul 12 said:
> 
> 
> > I have always seen having a preset template as a clear way to crush any creativity in your writing. You already have you instrument choices laid out for you which means the music starts at your fingers and not in your imagination....which is where the ideas SHOULD be coming from. IMO
> ...



Lol is that an implication that I am not a working composer with deadlines? 

I agree its definitely an each to his own, I just always chime in when someone is implying there is a 'correct' way to do something. I am not saying that having a template completely removes creativity from the equation however if the patch is up in front of you and ready to go, the easy option is to just jump in and fiddle with it rather than ponder the part first, this is when your muscle memory takes over and your fingers are doing the writing instead of your imagination. I have done this myself before, thats why I try to think before acting. I give myself an extra little bit of time to play with the ideas that come to me before acting on them...I find this way I have normally ended up with something more creative than just jumping in and writing. 

Also proving your point with "Well everyone does it" is a bit naive. Just cause everyone does it, doesn't make it the 'best' option. It just means its the easiest.

-DJ


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 12, 2013)

1. No, I have no idea what your work deadlines are or or not.

2. In my experience, people who staunchly maintain that there are not correct ways to do things do so because they did not learn them, and are therefore emotionally invested in maintaining that. Only you know if that does or does not apply to you.

3. There is nothing easy about film scoring so if someone is consistently looking for the easy way out, over time, they will not last. 

3. And yes, if the majority of working pros do things a certain way, it most likely is because for most people, it _is_ the best way. The fact that some others do not does not disprove that, it just means they are an exception.

Anyway, I hope that Play 4's background loading pleases a lot of users. Maybe I too will learn to enjoy it.


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## Guy Rowland (Jul 13, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jul 13 said:


> Anyway, I hope that Play 4's background loading pleases a lot of users. Maybe I too will learn to enjoy it.



Maybe! If I may so bold... you've built your working day and template around Play and the Hollywood series. And given your choice, you are absolutely working the right way - go with what works. So 20 minute loads over morning coffee are the order of the day - anything else will just lead to frustration. And that is also a very fine daily routine (so long as you don't need to vary it for any one of a thousand reasons).

Meanwhile, the rest of the world has moved on. There are no downsides to having your template load in a third of the time or an individual instrument almost instantaneous. So if Play is now about to catch up, then I'm sure that is indeed something you will learn to appreciate - perhaps the first time your DAW crashes at 4pm and computer needs a reboot when you're on a crippling deadline! [wild tangent - I've recently had problems with my RME drivers which have been crashing Totalmix needing a reboot, so even the best can throw spanners in your works from time to time. Just updated them to latest versions, so far so good]

As to template vs non-template - phhh. On much of what I do, I'm with Jay - I don't care about sounding original - I have an orchestra at my instant disposal (with many variations) that sound like they're in a great scoring stage, which is a joy. I want to play a flute line, I go to the flute track and play, and it sounds great. Creativity comes from my composition choices more than my sample library choices. However, if you're the sort of composer who needs maximum flexibility or typically enjoy working with a limited or idiosyncratic list of instruments, the DJ method will be much more appropriate. Either works. And in either case, background loading is a godsend


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## IFM (Jul 13, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Jul 12 said:


> Nonsense. Because you start with a template does not mean you have to rigidly adhere to it like a robot.



This is pretty much what I do. I have a large(ish) orchestral template (that I do need to update) that I start with but because I keep everything in the Logic project I can change them at will and not be stuck with multiple templates. Once PLAY adds the background loading in Play4 that should make other things better.

I really prefer the flexibility of having the instruments unique to the project I am working on rather than a static template that I simply connect to. I also have channel strips organized with all the instruments (plus a lot more) that are available in a pulldown menu for quick load so they are always available even if I didn't start with the main template. 

I have moved what I can back to Kontakt as I found Play crashing a bit unless I loaded it via a local connection to VEP or on the slave. I'm looking forward to Play4 as there are still a lot of sounds from EW that I use and would like to continue to use.

Chris


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 13, 2013)

OK, if I am wrong, I am wrong so maybe I need some schooling here.

Now, assuming I am not working with a template in Logic, I load the Friedlander big ALl patch, one of the biggest Kontakt patch I own, and it takes app. 2:20. While it is loading, I cannot load another patch.

If I turn on background loading, it loads in 6 seconds and I can start to load other patches.

So I totally get why this is really helpful for those who do not want a default virtual orchestra. But most film/TV composers in L.A. who I have helped with Logic (and VE Pro in some cases) DO want one. I will not name drop, but you would probably know their names and films/shows.

When I have background loading disabled in Kontakt and my VE Pro Kontakt template on my Mac in app. 1:54. If I turn b.l. on it takes app. 1:50. Faster? A Little but not significantly so. presumably, that will be the case with background loading in Play 4, although I do not know that or a fact.

So,since with a template, be it Logic Pro or VE Pro, while it is loading it is not going to let me add instruments or start to play an instrument until the whole template is loaded, how is background loading in Kontakt a helpful thing? 

Am I not understanding something?

EDIT: OK, I have answered my own question  After the template is loaded, background loading makes changing mic positions or a patch much faster. So background loading is back on in Kontakt and hooray for background loading being added to Play 4!


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## dgburns (Jul 13, 2013)

Daniel James @ Fri Jul 12 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Fri Jul 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Daniel James @ Fri Jul 12 said:
> ...



I couldn't agree more with Daniel.On all points.

Anyone can namedrop,so that won't impress me,whatever they work on.But a good idea is hard to argue with if it makes sense.

I think the argument to static templates is the cornerstone argument that said template can in fact accomplish whatever music you need to mock up/produce.If that's the case,then I say a static template is a godsend for a number of reasons,the least of which is familiarity with the layout.The "one size fits all" does make sense with orchestral stuff cause once you have your kickass setup,you might not want to fiddle with that,as it can takes lots of time to setup,and even slightly modify over time.

But exploring palette is a great way to kickstart new ideas.

And if you don't need/want to sound original,fine,but remember that a boatload of composers all using the same samples sounds like a voyage into futility to me.Such convergence leads to the devalue of our collective music.I see it in the way people respond to the music once produced,especially underscore.Just look at the plethora of me-too stuff posted around.

And all the rightful posts about finding your voice...which i think is the real journey

This to me is an argument to the very nature of what we do.We help brand the shows/films we work on.If we don't offer up something new,why not just cut in some stock lib instead?you have to be able to see past sitting in front of your daw,and think of what your music actually brings to the table for those that hire you.

-david


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 13, 2013)

And a boatload of composers all writing for a symphony orchestra? Does Stravinsky sound like Mahler? Does Prokofiev sound like Debussy or Ravel?

I guarantee you hat when I write for HS and you write for HS even using the same instruments and articulations, it will sound very different.

And the idea that accomplishment does not make a person's ideas more credible is one of the pernicious lies this generation has sold itself. Do you honestly think that i.e. James Newton Howard's' opinions on samples are not worth more than yours?

Puh-leeze.


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## dgburns (Jul 13, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jul 13 said:


> And a boatload of composers all writing for a symphony orchestra? Does Stravinsky sound like Mahler? Does Prokofiev sound like Debussy or Ravel?
> 
> I guarantee you hat when I write for HS and you write for HS even using the same instruments and articulations, it will soud very different.



and when after I've written using the samples,and then play the thing on my violins,violas and cellos,it'll sound like nothing anyone else has cause I played the thing note for damn note myself.

something happens when I play the parts out.I change the lines based on how playing the stuff makes me feel.You can't do that without knowing the instrument from a tactile place.samples don't get you there.Unless you can get people in to play the stuff.

maybe it's personal,but when I hear someone's cue,if i can spot the lib,it loses some of the appeal to me.like it's a copy,rather than the real thing.

never feels like we're discussing.you always need to beat everyone else down.why...?can't we just discuss and share ideas here?


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 13, 2013)

When you listen to a John Williams score and you can "spot the London string section" does it lose some of the appeal to you?

I thought discussing it is exactly what we are doing. Sorry if I can't write, "oh I se why you feel the way you do and it makes sense." Do you want me to be disingenuous?


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## hector (Jul 13, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jul 13 said:


> And the idea that accomplishment does not make a person's ideas more credible is one of the pernicious lies this generation has sold itself. Do you honestly think that i.e. James Newton Howard's' opinions on samples are not worth more than yours?


I always see you use the accomplishment and credibility thing and it does baffles me every time, not because I think accomplishments do not give credibility, but of two reasons. First that you seem to be giving commercial accomplishment more worth than no commercial (for example, I listen to many amazing mockups from hobby persons who I imagine you would say have an opinion not worth as much as a professional composer... accomplishment is not how many jobs it got a person or how much money it made, it is experience and the skill demonstrated). Second that I see is that you apply 'Person X has produced Y to a high level and is therefore a knowledgeable of Z' and Y is not Z.

For example, we (most) do not know the details in regards to James Newton Howard's experience with samples (and I suspect you do not too, but if you do, I am corrected). To your knowledge, what extent is James Newton Howard involved in the sample mockups? Does he produce them himself? Does he write to score paper and have assistant create it? Does he have a completely separate contractor create the mockups as the many do? James Newton Howard demonstrates accomplishment with composing, not samples, so why would James Newton Howard opinion on _samples_ be worth any more than a person on a forum that anyone equally knows little of the experience? Until we have an example of the both musicians sample experience side by side we can not say whose opinion on samples is worth more than the others, and even then it is still part subjective.

Is a very silly thing to me to give credit to someones opinion simply because of what they have commercially accomplished, especially giving credibility to areas of expertise they do not demonstrated.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 13, 2013)

That is a fair statement and quite correct.
So substitute Mike Verta for JNH.

That said, if you or I have an opinion on how good a sample based composition sounds and John Williams has an opinion, given his level of skill with an orchestra, do you really value yours or mine or anyone here's with his even though he may have no skills with samples?

Honestly? Because I surely do not.


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## hector (Jul 13, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jul 13 said:


> That is a fair statement and quite correct. So substitute Mike Verta for JNH.


I think again it is so subjective and is very particular to the situation that it cannot be made as simple as 'accomplishment gives opinion worthiness', it is very much down to the context and something as vague as _samples_ cannot be compared. For example if the topic now becomes 'sampling a Duduk' and dgburns has done it before and Mike has not, then whose opinion on it is worth more? You then change to 'sampling a Piano' and it may completely change. It is not the general accomplishments that gives a persons opinion the worthiness, but the experience of the situation each demonstrate (afterall if it is the only duduk ever sampled the commercial accomplishment would be immeasurably greater than Mike Verta, even if it is the worst duduk samples ever)



EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jul 13 said:


> That said, if you or I have an opinion on how good a sample based composition sounds and John Williams has an opinion, given his level of skill with an orchestra, do you really value yours or mine or anyone here's with his even though he may have no skills with samples?


Here is my points. 

Firstly, if John Williams gives an opinion to sampled work, it is not him giving an opinion on samples, it is him giving an opinion on whether or not your work sounds like a high quality orchestra he has experience with (and aesthetic pleasing to himself, I would imagine).

Second, we should not give John Williams (or your) opinion simply the value because of the accomplishments. We give them the value because of what you might say, for example, when he says 'I can hear wrong divisi in strings, the frequency of this is not what I like' it is not his _accompishments_ that give it value, it is his _demonstrated experience_ being applied to this situation. Also again I would imagine (and hope) JW would known his opinion is still subjective and value is not worth the same to _everyone_ and not comparable to others simply because of names status.



EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jul 13 said:


> Honestly? Because I surely do not.


You say again very loosely with no context. What if I am using instruments he has never heard or have experience using before? You still blindly say his accomplishments mean his opinion is worth more than yours who may have used them and heard them before?

These are the very things I think you are interchanging which I think you cannot. Experience is not accomplishment, and experience is only worth as much as it can be demonstrated.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 13, 2013)

Hector, you and I largely agree but we operate from a different basic assumption.

Based on my 40 years of experience, I have concluded that while a person may initially achieve commercial success and not be that good, if he sustains it for many years, then either we was also good to begin with or became good over time.

I am hard pressed to think of a single film composer who has been commercially successful for 20 + years who is not also pretty darned good and therefore whose opinion I would not greatly value as to how good a sample based composition sounds.


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## hector (Jul 13, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jul 13 said:


> Hector, you and I largely agree but we operate from a different basic assumption.
> 
> Based on my 40 years of experience, I have concluded that while a person may initially achieve commercial success and not be that good, if he sustains it for many years, then either we was also good to begin with or became good over time.


It is the assumption that is imcompatible. I agree with your assessment, a person who sustains commercial success over many years demonstrates that their experience is valuable. However, it only demonstrates the value of their opinion related to the field of in they have been successful. For example, John Williams opinion on whether Berlin Woodwinds is better or worse than CineWinds has no value to me because John Williams does not demonstrate he has used either, but a user here who has both and makes music could have an opinion I would value. Again, John Williams accomplishments do not relate to his experience in a specific situation.



EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jul 13 said:


> I am hard pressed to think of a single film composer who has been commercially successful for 20 + years who is not also pretty darned good and therefore whose opinion I would not greatly value as to how good a sample based composition sounds.


I agree, I simply put it that 1) this opinion again is not on the samples, but on the realism. Just because a successful composer can go 'that does not sound real', does not mean their opinion on how to fix it is automtically better than a random forum user. 2) That this opinion is subjective and its merits not to be judged on how successful the composer is, but how they demonstrate their experience. The success of a composers music says nothing of their experience of samples, or of jazz, or of making shoes, or of performing brain surgery. It only speaks of their composing experience.

To demonstrate: I have heard some _very_ unrealistic mockups from some _very_ high profile composers. Until they are to demonstrate they personally have experience and skill to create realistic mockups, their opinion on realistic mockups is worth no more than the average user on this forum. Again it is the demonstrable experience, not the accomplishment.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 13, 2013)

hector @ Sat Jul 13 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jul 13 said:
> 
> 
> > Hector, you and I largely agree but we operate from a different basic assumption.
> ...



Ah, there we go, I think we have nailed it down.. Whether i.e. he ever did or did not use a sample library, JW has worked with the best sounding woodwinds in the world, so if he were to prefer the sound of one over the other, I would always defer to his judgement. As to fixing a poorly executed mockup, of course, he might well be clueless other than to point out why it sounds bad.

So let me sum it up: Most of the composers I know in LA who I think do good quality sampled based composition, (some of them with helpers) work from orchestral templates.


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## hector (Jul 13, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jul 13 said:


> Ah, there we go, I think we have nailed it down.. Whether i.e. he ever did or did not use a sample library, JW has worked with the best sounding woodwinds in the world, so if he were to prefer the sound of one over the other, I would always defer to his judgement. As to fixing a poorly executed mockup, of course, he might well be clueless other than to point out why it sounds bad.


You use subjective words like 'better' and 'best' and 'most'. Then it is not opinion of his on samples that you value (a valuable opinion on samples would know which to fix), it is his personal taste in woodwinds that you value, and it is not his credits and accomplished that have proven the value to you, but his _music_ you have heard and enjoyed. I wonder, would you still blindly have the opinion if you had never heard JW music before?

This all I would agree with, but say for me is _nothing_ to do with his accomplishments, but purely that he has demonstrated a style of woodwinds I personally like through his music. I think this is fine for us to both say, and fine for us to both value his opinion, but I think it is not fine to project our own opinions onto other people because we expect them to see JW accomplishments, and it is not our place to make sweeping statements of whether his general opinion is worth more than anothers (or to say this generation does not respect accomplishments because they do not agree).


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 13, 2013)

But JW has the credits and accomplishments he has BECAUSE he can write wonderful music. 

James Newton Howard has the credits and accomplishments he has BECAUSE he can write wonderful music.

Hans Zimmer has the credits and accomplishments he has BECAUSE he can write wonderful music.

Why is that not obvious????

For me, good sample based composition: 
1. Good composition and orchestration.

2. Knowing what good sound is. While it is subjective, most successful pros have a handle on it and that is why they are successful.

3. Good sample manipulating and programming skills.

If you lack #3 but have #1 and #2, it is pretty easy to hire someone who is good at it Frankly, there are a bunch of guys here who I think are crappy composers but who are good at it.

And the fact that you lack #3 does not mean that you do not recognize it or the lack of it when you hear it.

OK, I'm done because we really are kind of off topic now.


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## hector (Jul 13, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jul 13 said:


> But JW has the credits and accomplishments he has BECAUSE he can write wonderful music.
> 
> James Newton Howard has the credits and accomplishments he has BECAUSE he can write wonderful music.
> 
> Hans Zimmer has the credits and accomplishments he has BECAUSE he can write wonderful music.


And those accomplishments are simply to say that JW, JNH and HZ can write wonderful music... It says nothing of their experience with samples. To say that everyone should accept their opinions of samples as more valuable than a user here because of the commercial music accomplishment is wrong and to label those that do not as 'some generation' like saying they are some rebellious teenagers with no respect for elder is wrong.

Why is that not obvious???



EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jul 13 said:


> For me, good sample based composition:
> 1. Good composition and orchestration.
> 2. Knowing what good sound is. While it is subjective, most successful pros have a handle on it and that is why they are successful.
> 3. Good sample manipulating and programming skills.


An opinion on samples should be based on experience of #3. If someone has #1 and #2, but lacks #3, then you *cannot give their opinion on #3 more worth than a user on a forum that may have more experience with #3*. A person can tell you when a samples music sounds wrong with _zero knowledge and opinion_ of samples. they only need to know how _non samples_ should sound... it says nothing of their samples opinion.

Maybe you are done because you can only regurgitate the same flawed argument again and then again..


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 13, 2013)

Samples are approximations of the real thing. That is all they are. The more they sound like the real thing to guys who know what the real thing sounds like, the better they are.

You don't need experience with samples to hear if they sound good or not, you need experience with what is being sampled.


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## hector (Jul 13, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jul 13 said:


> Samples are approximations of the real thing. That is all they are. The more they sound like the real thing to guys who know what the real thing sounds like, the better they are.
> 
> You don't need experience with samples to hear if they sound good or not, you need experience with what is being sampled.


Sure, but that is beside the point of what we talk about. I raised issue with what you say about _accomplishments_. A general accomplishment say nothing of the value of the opinion of composer. As you say their experience in the context (with the instrument they have played, for example). By the logic you show in your first post of accomplishments, and is others, you try to make case that people with accomplishments should be automatically have the respect for their opinions. Really it is their experience of the situation they give opinion on, not the previous accomplishments that should be considered for the value.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 13, 2013)

Distinctions without a difference.

if you don't accept that there is a direct correlation between a lot of experience as a working composer that in turn generally leads to accomplishments that makes the person's opinion intrinsically more valuable than those of people without that, then we have nothing in common to discuss.

Let's be totally honest with a hpypothetical: a new orchestra library comes out and posts demos. John Williams, who does not work with samples, listens and says, "hey, that sounds pretty decent."

And then someone here like Ed or Choco or Dan-Jay or me, says, "I think that sounds pretty poor."

Are you really going to give those opinions equal weight? Really? Because if you say yes, I will have to stop discussing it with you because there will be nothing left for me except to call you names.


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## hector (Jul 13, 2013)

Distinctions without a difference???? Are you serious? Accomplishment in one field is the RESULT of experience of one field. It say nothing of other fields, or of the experience. I accept there is a correlation between the experience and the accomplishment it brings, better experience more and better accomplishment. But I say when opinion is given in a _certain field_ expertise, the experience of the _certain field_ should be used to weight its value, not the general accomplishments of the individual.

In your hypothetical situations none of the parties have given context and so I treat them as such, two subjective passing comment. I give neither weight, I trust both of the two and I take them as personal preference. If you give any values to those comments you would have to be very silly as they are so vague, what is 'decent' and 'poor'??!

However, If JW was to post and say a thing such as why in his experiences it is not a _realistic_ woodwinds and someone Dan-Jay disagree, I would give JW opinion on realism more weight until Dan-Jay demonstrates he also has an equal understanding of orchestra realism.

None of this relates to their accomplishments, it is down to the experience they show they have of realism.

For example, if JW has never used HB or CineBrass and he comes here and says 'I think HB sound much easier to use', even with all his amazing accomplishments that opinion has no weight as it is not based in experience. As soon as he says ' I have used both, HB took me 30 minutes CB took me 50 minutes' or 'Here is a piece I wrote in CB I cannot write in HB', THEN you have context and again he shows his experience, not just 'I have accomplished scoring many movies so you should listen to my opinion on anything related to music'.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 13, 2013)

If you are saying that there is even a _single_ thing relating to the sound of orchestral style music done with samples that the opinions of at least 50% of the people here should even be mentioned in the same sentence as opinions of JW, JNH, Howard Shore, and people like that, to me is a statement equivalent to:

"I believe Elvis is still alive and hiding out."

"Man never landed on the moon, it was done in a TV studio."

And now, you may have the last word, as I know you will anyway.


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## Guy Rowland (Jul 13, 2013)

OMG what's wrong with this thread?

Back before it went south (or south south east at best):



EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jul 13 said:


> OK, if I am wrong, I am wrong so maybe I need some schooling here.
> 
> Now, assuming I am not working with a template in Logic, I load the Friedlander big ALl patch, one of the biggest Kontakt patch I own, and it takes app. 2:20. While it is loading, I cannot load another patch.
> 
> ...



Well, glad you have a use for it, but I'm a little confused by your results. You give an example of the difference in a single instrument - from 2m20s off to 6s on - I don't quite get why that becomes insignificant when loading a template? What most of us experience is that Kontakt rattles through scores of patches like lightning when loading a template, and then it will hang for 20s to load a cowbell in Play (or something).

The other thing to mention is that background loading is most effective when working fully purged (this is for SSD use only). So samples NEVER get loaded at all at launch, they are just loaded as needed.


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## scientist (Jul 13, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Sat Jul 13 said:


> The other thing to mention is that background loading is most effective when working fully purged (this is for SSD use only). So samples NEVER get loaded at all at launch, they are just loaded as needed.



yes. and as ssd's get more common this is really the direction sampler developers should be going in terms of future developments. the best case scenario is a sampler that is smart enough to handle background loading and purging without the user having to manage anything. e.g. a system that is able to say "i've processed 150,000 sample events in the last hour and not one of them has called for these flute samples, so i'm just going to dump them from memory" or "this guy sure likes this piano patch. i'll make sure it's always loaded, even though i'm sick of hearing it". i'm personifying the logic for simplicity's sake, but that's the general idea.

if a system is smart enough you could have the biggest template in the world, and it would load in seconds because it's not stupidly dumping every single sample into ram, but rather observing the user and picking and choosing how best to optimize system resources. the current next best thing is saving our own sampler presets (and parent templates thereof) with the purged/un-purged preferences in place.


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## pinki (Jul 13, 2013)

Just before we go back North...

OMG that exchange was painful - yet again Jay manages to save the day when too many people were saying "PLAY IS CRAP" (on a Mac)... which the world knows it is and always has been. 

(Nice one :wink

By the way I think you should stop _worshipping_ those big name film composers like that- it's not healthy. Sure they have have written some good stuff, but bad stuff too- and hector was absolutely correct in his argument. And I couldn't give a toot what John Williams says about anything to do with music samples (if he ever has) - I actually value Daniel James opinion much more because he _demonstrates_ experience in his YouTube videos.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 13, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jul 13 said:


> When you listen to a John Williams score and you can "spot the London string section" does it lose some of the appeal to you?
> 
> I thought discussing it is exactly what we are doing. Sorry if I can't write, "oh I se why you feel the way you do and it makes sense." Do you want me to be disingenuous?



Perhaps not, but sometimes I wish you'd simply concede that among reasonable, bright people, there can be more than one "right" opinion', that at some point it's better to agree to disagree than to keep framing the same argument in different ways, and that you'd stop mentioning your long tenure in the industry as if it's some sort of guarantee of rectitude. 

As someone a century old, I feel I have the earned right to say so :wink:


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## Rv5 (Jul 14, 2013)

Golly it's like a scientology thread (probably)... someone brings up a problem and next thing look where the topic is guided.

Play has caused many people problems where no other software has.

As a result you could say Play is problematic.

You could then say that a piece of software designed not to be problematic that is problematic is poorly written.

It would follow then the main thing that is wrong with Play is it is a poorly written piece of software. 

It works great if you invest in a slave PC running VEP... it just doesn't mention that in the system requirements. 

This is fair ground to return the product I'm pretty sure, if you're willing to go through the effort 

Best

Rv5


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 14, 2013)

Well, glad you have a use for it, but I'm a little confused by your results. You give an example of the difference in a single instrument - from 2m20s off to 6s on - I don't quite get why that becomes insignificant when loading a template? What most of us experience is that Kontakt rattles through scores of patches like lightning when loading a template, and then it will hang for 20s to load a cowbell in Play (or something).

The other thing to mention is that background loading is most effective when working fully purged (this is for SSD use only). So samples NEVER get loaded at all at launch, they are just loaded as needed.[/quote]

Bear in mind, my VE Pro K5 template has 18 v-frames (projects) and probably is using about 7-8 GBs. See pic. The first 9 are big "all articulations" patches so they take a while where the last 9 do load lickety-split. 

I have not felt the need so far to purchase an SSD for my Mac's samples, just for the Hollywood series on the PC. So I take it the purge feature will not be helpful for me?


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 14, 2013)

BTW, the culprits are the Kirk Hunter Concert Brass 2 patches. The French Horns 4 player all articulations patch takes 45 seconds with background loading on. How can I see in Kontakt how many samples have been loaded in a single patch?

(Man, I need to learn Kontakt better.)

EDIT: OK, I can see before I load it in he Info panel that the patch is 4.78 GB. That is pretty big.


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## Guy Rowland (Jul 14, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Jul 14 said:


> BTW, the culprits are the Kirk Hunter Concert Brass 2 patches. The French Horns 4 player all articulations patch takes 45 seconds with background loading on. How can I see in Kontakt how many samples have been loaded in a single patch?
> 
> (Man, I need to learn Kontakt better.)



Whoa, something not right there. Two possibilities - first, batch save your KH nkis, that might speed it up. Even so, 45s is extreme, something else must be going on. The only time I've ever had hangs like that it turned out the samples were encrypted on disk. It was a by-product for me in Windows of extracting a combined mac / windows rar. Not sure if those samples are on your mac or pc, but do check if it's the latter. If the sample folder has the lettering in green, that's a giveaway. To fix, right click the folder, properties, advanced and uncheck the encryption.

Just speculation on my part cos 45s is very strange.

As for purging generally - yeah, I'd say that SSD is best for it. I did used to purge occasionally on a regular drive when I was at my limit a few years ago - it's not a total disaster, but you do get a lot more glitching initially.


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## Simon Ravn (Jul 14, 2013)

My template (10.50GB loaded in Kontakt memory server) takes fairly long to load, with background loading. I don't know why but some patches just seem to take forever to load compared to others. Cinebrass for example takes a looooong time, so does Berlin Woodwinds if I am not mistaken. Don't know why. Oh and this is on super fast SSD's, they don't really help much there seems to be a filesystem/Kontakt issue slowing down loading of some patches.

On topic however, it will be great to have background loading in PLAY - will surely cut down the time I have to wait before I load a Logic project so it doesn't connect while VEP is loading (which causes a crash)


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## Guy Rowland (Jul 14, 2013)

Check your patches too, Simon. I have CB and it's as quick as anything else - though from memory it was one I had to de-encrypt to make it fly. Read my post above to check for batch resaving and encrypted sample issues.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 14, 2013)

Guy, could you please post a "step by step" for the clueless about Kontakt like me?


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## Guy Rowland (Jul 14, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Jul 14 said:


> Guy, could you please post a "step by step" for the clueless about Kontakt like me?



Since you asked so nicely 

BATCH RE-SAVING

(speeds up load times generally).

1. If you're nervous, copy your NKIs somewhere else just in case you screw up!

2. In Kontakt, click FILES and BATCH RESAVE. 

3. Click Yes to the scary warning. Cos you did 1, after all.

4. Navigate to your folder with the NKIs.

5. That's it - just watch it check for any missing samples and then resave them.

CHECKING FOR ENCRYPTED SAMPLES

(if you have patches that hang a LONG time in Windows when loading in Kontakt, the samples might be encrypted).

1. You don't need Kontakt for this at all, just go to Windows Explorer.

2. Navigate to your suspect folder normally.

3. If the lettering is green or some other strange colour, that's a good chance that your samples are encrypted. It might not be a funny colour, it depends how your computer is set up.

4. Right click the root suspect folder and click Properties.

5. Click Advanced.

6. Check the bottom tickbox "encrypt contents to secure data". If it is checked YOU HAVE FOUND YOUR PROBLEM!

7. Uncheck it and click OK

8. Click APPLY. (this part might take AGES and give you some sympathy for what Kontakt has had to have been doing all this time).

9. That's it. Your patches should now load super-fast.

The encryption thing seems to be a by-product unpacking from a joint Mac / PC zip/rar folder using some software (including windows own I think). Some software doesn't do this, some does it seems.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 14, 2013)

Thanks, Guy. But I only use Kontakt on the Mac so much of this is not relevant for me

I have batch compressed some other Kontakt libraries so I know how to do that. The encryption thing is what I am confused about.


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## Pzy-Clone (Jul 14, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Sun Jul 14 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sun Jul 14 said:
> 
> 
> > BTW, the culprits are the Kirk Hunter Concert Brass 2 patches. The French Horns 4 player all articulations patch takes 45 seconds with background loading on. How can I see in Kontakt how many samples have been loaded in a single patch?
> ...



Didn`t read the entire thread....but, as far as i can remember, the KH stuff makes use of the AET morphing filter, which analyzes the samples upon loading and significantly increases the loading times and also puts a lot of strain on the cpu`s. 

So... nothing to do with encryption, ...it should say "analyzing samples" during the loading process


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## Guy Rowland (Jul 14, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Jul 14 said:


> Thanks, Guy. But I only use Kontakt on the Mac so much of this is not relevant for me
> 
> I have batch compressed some other Kontakt libraries so I know how to do that. The encryption thing is what I am confused about.



I don't know if there's an equivalent on a Mac, Jay - I do own an old macbook but it frightens me. 45 second hangs are definitely odd though, perhaps KH can help?

EDIT - oh, thanks Pzy. I've never met that on any of my libs, could well explain it though.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 14, 2013)

Pzy-Clone @ Sun Jul 14 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Sun Jul 14 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Sun Jul 14 said:
> ...



Indeed it does say "analyzing samples" during the loading process. Is there a way to turn that off and how adversely does it affect the patch?

BTW, has a anyone written a good e-book about Kontakt 5? Methinks there is money to be made.


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## Pzy-Clone (Jul 14, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Jul 14 said:


> Pzy-Clone @ Sun Jul 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Guy Rowland @ Sun Jul 14 said:
> ...



Nope, not without reprogramming the core functionality of the library in question.

It has to do with the layer crossfades, it kinda superimposes the sonic characteristics of one layer upon the next, making it in theory... a seamless crossfade, as opposed to the traditional volume envelope based mp/ff etc etc crossfade. 

But imo, the resources needed by far outweighs the benefits...so far , but some day i am sure it will be a very useful feature


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## Symfoniq (Jul 14, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Jul 14 said:


> BTW, has a anyone written a good e-book about Kontakt 5? Methinks there is money to be made.



I don't know about a book, but macProVideo.com has introductory and advanced screencasts for Kontakt 5 (I'm not affiliated, but can vouch for their Cubase course):

http://www.macprovideo.com/tutorial/kon ... ng-kontakt

http://www.macprovideo.com/tutorial/kon ... ed-kontakt


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## reddognoyz (Jul 14, 2013)

Re: slow loading in K5 specifically Berlin WW's and Cinewinds.

If you batch save these libraries they will load as fast as everything else. That was my experience on my Mac. I can't vouch for the KH stuff, but it may be the case as well. 

I have a pretty big template over two computers and it loads pretty darned quick. I have the entire Lass strings in one instance of kontakt and it loads in, I'm guessing here, 20 seconds?


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 14, 2013)

Symfoniq @ Sun Jul 14 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sun Jul 14 said:
> 
> 
> > BTW, has a anyone written a good e-book about Kontakt 5? Methinks there is money to be made.
> ...



Not really a visual learner, more of a book guy, which is why I write them.


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## kb123 (Jul 14, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Jul 14 said:


> Symfoniq @ Sun Jul 14 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Sun Jul 14 said:
> ...




A novel concept I know, but if you like books, perhaps try the manual? :lol:


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 14, 2013)

I have. It's not very good but better than nothing so I will spend some time with it. German to English translation seems to frequently leads to excess wordiness it seems. The same is true of the Logic manual, which is why there are so many third party books.


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## Simon Ravn (Jul 15, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Sun Jul 14 said:


> Check your patches too, Simon. I have CB and it's as quick as anything else - though from memory it was one I had to de-encrypt to make it fly. Read my post above to check for batch resaving and encrypted sample issues.



Yeah, the problem is though, everything IS batch re-saved now, but that doesn't help my existing Vienna Ensemble Pro projects - they don't load the patches, they have the whole thing embedded inside, so I will need to reconstruct everything there :x


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## Guy Rowland (Jul 15, 2013)

Simon Ravn @ Mon Jul 15 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Sun Jul 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Check your patches too, Simon. I have CB and it's as quick as anything else - though from memory it was one I had to de-encrypt to make it fly. Read my post above to check for batch resaving and encrypted sample issues.
> ...



I might be wrong on this, but I think if you saved them within a VE Pro template, you're effectively resaving them anyway so you wouldn't see any difference for your troubles. However, in the case of encrypted samples you'd definitely still see huge waits in VE Pro, so definitely check that. Like I say, my CB patches were encrypted originally I think.


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## Simon Ravn (Jul 15, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Mon Jul 15 said:


> Simon Ravn @ Mon Jul 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Guy Rowland @ Sun Jul 14 said:
> ...




You might be right, so I guess I just have to accept these slow loading patches. I don't think I can "de-encrypt them" on Mac where I use them, if they are indeed encrypted. Whould be really annoying if being a legit customer again give you drawbacks like this, compared to finding a pirated version.... :shock:


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## Guy Rowland (Jul 15, 2013)

Simon Ravn @ Mon Jul 15 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Mon Jul 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Simon Ravn @ Mon Jul 15 said:
> ...



If you're Mac, afaik it's not encryption. To be clear, this is windows file encryption, nothing to do with any copy protection. If I were you I'd drop CS support a line.


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## Simon Ravn (Jul 15, 2013)

Ah ok, thanks. I might do that then


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 15, 2013)

[quote="Pzy-Clone @ Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:01 am".[/quote]

Didn`t read the entire thread....but, as far as i can remember, the KH stuff makes use of the AET morphing filter, which analyzes the samples upon loading and significantly increases the loading times and also puts a lot of strain on the cpu`s. 

So... nothing to do with encryption, ...it should say "analyzing samples" during the loading process [/quote]

Turns out Concert Brass 2 is already batch compressed so it must be the AET thing. I'll ask Kirk.


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## Sasje (Jul 15, 2013)

Probably unrelated, but I experience some issues as well: when I save a DAW template and load it some time later, PLAY loads, but it doesn't select the instrument. I have to re-select every instrument again. I have no clue why this is happening... but it is annoying. I work with Reaper. I know this is not a support thread, but I wonder if anyone else experience this as well?


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## Sasje (Jul 15, 2013)

Thanks EastWest Lurker, it doesn't happen consistently, sometimes it works fine. Have gotten used to it though...


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 15, 2013)

Sasje @ Mon Jul 15 said:


> Thanks EastWest Lurker, it doesn't happen consistently, sometimes it works fine. Have gotten used to it though...



I deleted that post. My udertanding was out of date. Reaper IS supported for Play.


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## R.Cato (Jul 15, 2013)

Sasje @ Mon Jul 15 said:


> Probably unrelated, but I experience some issues as well: when I save a DAW template and load it some time later, PLAY loads, but it doesn't select the instrument. I have to re-select every instrument again. I have no clue why this is happening... but it is annoying. I work with Reaper. I know this is not a support thread, but I wonder if anyone else experience this as well?



Hi Sasje,

I have the exact same problem in Cubase. East West Support said Play 4 will fix that.

Hope so....


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## NYC Composer (Jul 15, 2013)

I have the same, although it tends to be that one instance of Play within VEP won't load its samples. Seems totally random, and its only on an occasional project..


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## Jerome Vonhogen (Jul 15, 2013)

Hi everyone!

I haven't been around here lately, so I missed most of this thread (as well as plenty other EW-related threads, I'm sure).

To be honest, I'm a little surprised to see an entire thread on Play 3 issues and all sorts of Play 3 imperfections, while at the same time Play 4 is being polished for it's release. It's a bit like complaining about your ex on the first date with your new girlfriend; you just shouldn't do that! :wink: Similarly, I wouldn't bother complaining about my old car, if I was about to get a new one...

Anyway, I have just finished testing StormDrum 3 with Play 4, and from my own experience it is safe to say (at least without breaking my NDA) that Play 4 will most likely improve your workflow considerably, so hang in there and say goodbye to your Play 3 engine. Just a little more patience guys, and you will all be driving your new car very soon! 8) 

Jerome Vonhögen


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## NYC Composer (Jul 15, 2013)

Jerome Vonhogen @ Mon Jul 15 said:


> Hi everyone!
> 
> I haven't been around here lately, so I missed most of this thread (as well as plenty other EW-related threads, I'm sure).
> 
> ...



I love a good analogy. How about this one-your old car's air conditioning didn't work, and sometimes you have you drive through the desert, and your new car was off in the distance somewhere in the desert, faintly glimpsed, possibly a mirage-for five years? Would your new car ALSO be a Yugo?


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## synergy543 (Jul 15, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Mon Jul 15 said:


> I love a good analogy. How about this one-your old car's air conditioning didn't work, and sometimes you have you drive through the desert, and your new car was off in the distance somewhere in the desert, faintly glimpsed, possibly a mirage-for five years? Would your new car ALSO be a Yugo?


LOL. You deserve a beer for that one Larry! o-[][]-o


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 15, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Mon Jul 15 said:


> Jerome Vonhogen @ Mon Jul 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi everyone!
> ...



Are you sure it wasn't simply out of Freon?


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## NYC Composer (Jul 15, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Jul 15 said:


> NYC Composer @ Mon Jul 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Jerome Vonhogen @ Mon Jul 15 said:
> ...



Ha!

I can't be a past-Play apologist, but I'm sure rooting for Play 4 to be more fabulous than fab..

That would make my heart soar like an eagle in the desert.


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## Simon Ravn (Jul 16, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Mon Jul 15 said:


> Simon Ravn @ Mon Jul 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Guy Rowland @ Mon Jul 15 said:
> ...



I just took a look while Kontakt is loading its stuff, it turns out Berlin Woodwinds is also one of the culprits. It basically loads about 2-3 MB per second when it does its background loading - that's quite on the slow side isn't it... any idea what could be causing this? And I can't just live with nonloaded samples playing, but Logic can't work while this is going on, I will get a system overload error very quickly. So I have to wait until everything is loaded - which takes much longer than it should.


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## loolaphonic (Jul 16, 2013)

Sorry if this is slightly off topic but is Play 4 still coming this month? Does anyone know the date? cheers


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 16, 2013)

Wednesday.


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## Ganvai (Jul 16, 2013)

Really? That are good news! Just thinking about the new CCC.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 16, 2013)

Ganvai @ Tue Jul 16 said:


> Really? That are good news! Just thinking about the new CCC.



But only for those who buy SD3, initially.


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## mk282 (Jul 16, 2013)

Simon Ravn @ 16.7.2013 said:


> I just took a look while Kontakt is loading its stuff, it turns out Berlin Woodwinds is also one of the culprits. It basically loads about 2-3 MB per second when it does its background loading - that's quite on the slow side isn't it... any idea what could be causing this? And I can't just live with nonloaded samples playing, but Logic can't work while this is going on, I will get a system overload error very quickly. So I have to wait until everything is loaded - which takes much longer than it should.



Peculiar. HDD or SSD? In case of HDD, I would guess it's fragmentation issues and/or the possibility that most of library files are located close to the inner rim of the HDD platter, which is the slowest part on every mechanical hard drive. If this is correct, I would advise defragmenting, and never using up more than 60-70% of your hard drive space to keep top performance for sample streaming (drives you're using for sample streaming should NEVER be close to full!).


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## Simon Ravn (Jul 16, 2013)

mk282 @ Tue Jul 16 said:


> Simon Ravn @ 16.7.2013 said:
> 
> 
> > I just took a look while Kontakt is loading its stuff, it turns out Berlin Woodwinds is also one of the culprits. It basically loads about 2-3 MB per second when it does its background loading - that's quite on the slow side isn't it... any idea what could be causing this? And I can't just live with nonloaded samples playing, but Logic can't work while this is going on, I will get a system overload error very quickly. So I have to wait until everything is loaded - which takes much longer than it should.
> ...



This is actually for Sable as well. I have Kontakt Memory Server turned on, and I set a global buffer of 18kb per sample in Kontakt 4/5.

It has nothing to do with HD's, I am using one of the fastest SSD solutions possible (RAID 0 on a Sonnet SSD Pro PCI card).

BTW the "no more than 60-70%" thing is a myth - ESPECIALLY when you only use your drive for reading. It doesn't matter if it's 10% of 99% full if you just install your samples on the drive and never again write to it.


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## mk282 (Jul 17, 2013)

For SSDs, that doesn't matter - for HDDs, it definitely DOES matter because random access time gets worse the more data is spread apart on the HD platter.


I'll blame this on OSX, then. :D


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## NYC Composer (Jul 17, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jul 16 said:


> Ganvai @ Tue Jul 16 said:
> 
> 
> > Really? That are good news! Just thinking about the new CCC.
> ...



Well Ganv- guess you can stop thinking about it for a while.....


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## loolaphonic (Jul 17, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jul 16 said:


> Ganvai @ Tue Jul 16 said:
> 
> 
> > Really? That are good news! Just thinking about the new CCC.
> ...



I give EastWest my money before. Play 4 maybe make old product work. Why no Play 4 for me? :(


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## Synesthesia (Jul 17, 2013)

Simon Ravn @ Tue Jul 16 said:


> This is actually for Sable as well. I have Kontakt Memory Server turned on, and I set a global buffer of 18kb per sample in Kontakt 4/5.
> 
> It has nothing to do with HD's, I am using one of the fastest SSD solutions possible (RAID 0 on a Sonnet SSD Pro PCI card).
> 
> BTW the "no more than 60-70%" thing is a myth - ESPECIALLY when you only use your drive for reading. It doesn't matter if it's 10% of 99% full if you just install your samples on the drive and never again write to it.



hi Simon,

Just out of interest, is this only within VEP or do you get this slow load (after batch resaving) standalone too?

My Sable loads lightning fast both inside VEP on a PC, and standalone on my Mac, so there must be another reason you are experiencing this..

Cheers!

Paul


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 17, 2013)

loolaphonic @ Wed Jul 17 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jul 16 said:
> 
> 
> > Ganvai @ Tue Jul 16 said:
> ...



End of the month, for you too.


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