# Logic says -14 LUFS but Loudness Penalty is quiet



## FrozenIcicle (Jan 9, 2021)

I'm scratching my head here.

I'm running Logic pro's Loudness Meter plugin after I use Ozone 8 to get it up to -14 LUFS. The meter is showing -14LUFS but when I bounce the track, it plays quiet on my mac finder playback and even when I check it using loudnesspenalty.com. It's even showing Spotify add +2db 

I'm really confused why. Any help would be appreciated


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## AudioLoco (Jan 9, 2021)

This may help....









Targeting Mastering Loudness for Streaming (LUFS, Spotify, YouTube)-Why NOT to do it. - Gearspace.com


Below I am sharing something that I send to my mastering clients when they inquire about targeting LUFS levels for streaming services. Months ago I posted an early draft of this in another thread so apologies for the repetition. I hope it is helpful to so



www.gearslutz.com


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## FrozenIcicle (Jan 9, 2021)

Thanks, I've read this  and it's an interesting read.

However I'm more confused on how I can hear with my own ears the volume drop when I play it outside Logic.

Also I trying to upload to a library (Pond5) and I'm assuming they target -14 LUFS


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## EricBarndollar (Jan 9, 2021)

If it still sounds quiet compared to other reference tracks you are playing, turn it up more!

Does loudness penalty show a negative number for the other streaming services? If you don't get a negative number, that means you are still below the target* loudness for that service. Most of them don't turn quieter songs up -- Spotify is an exception there (though they are currently transitioning from their older replay gain standard to LUFS, so exact numbers may change).

*But also be careful of the word "target". Most mastering engineers don't recommend blindly making a track match a reference Integrated Loudness LUFS level. If you do want to balance with a single number, you're probably better off making the maximum Short-Term Loudness (in the loudest parts) the same as your reference tracks.

The main problem with just using Integrated Loudness for the whole song is that two tracks with very different dynamics will measure quite differently. If you take two tracks -- one loud throughout and the other that is mostly soft with a few loud parts -- making them both -14 LUFS Integrated would mean they wouldn't sound balanced to each other. The soft parts of the more dynamic track would probably sound too loud relative to the other song.

If your track has very large dynamic contrast between soft and loud sections, you might also need to think about reducing that dynamic range (e.g. by automating volume pre-Ozone to turn up the quiet sections), if only your softer sections are sounding too quiet.


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## EricBarndollar (Jan 9, 2021)

Also check for any technical issues with your export (like a lowered master volume fader level or in any plugins after Ozone).

If you import your exported audio file into a new Logic project and measure the loudness with the same meter, does it show the same number?


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## shawnsingh (Jan 9, 2021)

FrozenIcicle said:


> However I'm more confused on how I can hear with my own ears the volume drop when I play it outside Logic.


I'm addition to previous great suggestions to check, here another one - is it possible you have slightly different audio paths that may have a gain difference? Maybe logic is outputting through audio interface and finder is playing through system audio on a different way?


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 9, 2021)

FrozenIcicle said:


> I'm running Logic pro's Loudness Meter plugin after I use Ozone 8 to get it up to -14 LUFS.


I find Logic’s meter inaccurate. I highly recommend downloading the free version of Youlean Loudness meter.


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## GNP (Jan 9, 2021)

Lol I'll just leave this here


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## FrozenIcicle (Jan 11, 2021)

shawnsingh said:


> I'm addition to previous great suggestions to check, here another one - is it possible you have slightly different audio paths that may have a gain difference? Maybe logic is outputting through audio interface and finder is playing through system audio on a different way?


Hmm I am using sonar reference but I took it off to double check. Maybe since I'm hitting -14 in the chorus, the loudness penalty is averaging the quieter parts at the start as well?


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## FrozenIcicle (Jan 11, 2021)

EricBarndollar said:


> Also check for any technical issues with your export (like a lowered master volume fader level or in any plugins after Ozone).
> 
> If you import your exported audio file into a new Logic project and measure the loudness with the same meter, does it show the same number?


Yes...yes it does. Thanks! This can stop me from second-guessing knowing the numbers are correct haha


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## jcrosby (Jan 11, 2021)

Most music is not mastered to -14, but much louder. (Most commercial genres average out somewhere around -8, EDM genres can be obscenely louder, -6, even up to to -4.). -14 is not an ideal mastering level unless you'er doing more organic music like traditional jazz, singer songwriter, traditional orchestra (not cinematic/trailer, etc)... if you want your music to sound competitive/viable to commercially similar music, especially if trying to license it on a place like pond5 you need to think of mastering your track to sound like it's competes in the intended genre.

9 out of 10 people buying RF licenses know nothing about loudness normalization. All they know when they hear a quiet track at -14 is that your tracks sounds far too quiet compared to something they may have locally on their computer in a playlist, as an mp3, etc... Not to mention sounds too quiet compared to most music on there (if in a popular genre)...

And, given that those differences in level add to a perceived lack of bass quiet masters work against you on 2 fronts...

Here's something that popped up in my feed recently that I thought would be useful in case someone had issues with this, as this has become a really common question. (And huge misconception...)


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## EricBarndollar (Jan 11, 2021)

FrozenIcicle said:


> Hmm I am using sonar reference but I took it off to double check. Maybe since I'm hitting -14 in the chorus, the loudness penalty is averaging the quieter parts at the start as well?


Yes, integrated loudness will average over the whole song.

Not sure which version of Ozone you have, but if it includes their Insight plugin, you can watch a history graph of the different loudness measures as you play through.



jcrosby said:


> Most music is not mastered to -14, but much louder. (Most commercial genres average out somewhere around -8, EDM genres can be obscenely louder, -6, even up to to -4.). -14 is not an ideal mastering level unless you'er doing more organic music like traditional jazz, singer songwriter, traditional orchestra (not cinematic/trailer, etc)... if you want your music to sound competitive/viable to commercially similar music, especially if trying to license it on a place like pond5 you need to think of mastering your track to sound like it's competes in the intended genre.


I think there's still a lot of variance. There are many https://dynamicrangeday.co.uk/award/ (very successful commercial releases) outside of those "organic" genres that are mastered to sane musical levels, especially as streaming and loudness normalization are the norm for a high and still growing percentage of all music listening. But then there are still lots of loudness war participants too.

I'd only add that, sonically speaking, your music in any genre will sound better if you don't crush it to insane loudness. (To do a fair A/B listening comparison and hear the degradation, you have to match loudness yourself first, though). Super high compression + limiting (even intentional clipping) are reducing the punch of things like drum hits, as the transient peaks have to pulled down.

If you decide to master much louder, that's a fair decision to make, as long as you're intentionally trading off musical quality for competitiveness in an environment without loudness normalization. EDM tracks sent to club DJs or WAV/MP3 files emailed to A&R decision makers might still be places where you have to make that tradeoff.


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## shawnsingh (Jan 11, 2021)

FrozenIcicle said:


> Hmm I am using sonar reference but I took it off to double check. Maybe since I'm hitting -14 in the chorus, the loudness penalty is averaging the quieter parts at the start as well?


Are you referring to the website loudness penalty? If they are saying Spotify would do +2 dB, it may be because Spotify has used ReplayGain in the past. I don't know if they've already migrated to LUFS yet or not. Or maybe the loudness penalty website needs to be updated to reflect Spotify's measurement changes. Either way, ReplayGain is sufficiently different that it could easily be several dB off.

But if you feel like you're definitely hearing a difference, too, that seems unrelated to loudness penalty website or spotify, in that case I might be misunderstanding the question =)


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## AudioLoco (Jan 19, 2021)

I have only once finished a record considering LUFS, penalties etc etc... 
It is the only record I have released I can't wait to re-master. 
Just use your ears.


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## FrozenIcicle (Jan 20, 2021)

shawnsingh said:


> Are you referring to the website loudness penalty? If they are saying Spotify would do +2 dB, it may be because Spotify has used ReplayGain in the past. I don't know if they've already migrated to LUFS yet or not. Or maybe the loudness penalty website needs to be updated to reflect Spotify's measurement changes. Either way, ReplayGain is sufficiently different that it could easily be several dB off.
> 
> But if you feel like you're definitely hearing a difference, too, that seems unrelated to loudness penalty website or spotify, in that case I might be misunderstanding the question =)


A lot of great replies thanks for taking the time. In fact I just used my ears and bumped it up a bit (-12) and called it a day!


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## antanasb (Jan 23, 2021)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> I find Logic’s meter inaccurate. I highly recommend downloading the free version of Youlean Loudness meter.



Amazing plugin. Bought the pro version. Best 30€ spent of many of the plugins...

That dragndrop analysis is sooo nice...


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## jcrosby (Jan 23, 2021)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> I find Logic’s meter inaccurate. I highly recommend downloading the free version of Youlean Loudness meter.


Logic's meter is absolutely fine. You can see identical Integrated numbers on all 3 plugins below using the same piece of music.

The Short numbers are within .1 dB and Logic's .1 difference can be due to its refresh rate being slightly different (which you see in RMS meters all the time.). Same with Momentary. A slightly different refresh rate will show different numbers, but you don't worry about Momentary unless you're doing some kind of critical metering... 

Basically Momentary is a critical analysis you can more or less ignore, and Short is used for ballparking an average loudness, the same way you would if using an RMS meter.

For loudness normalization the integrated number is what you want to pay attention to, all of the meters show the same number...


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