# Writing for choir?



## tokatila (Feb 1, 2015)

Let's assume you compose on piano and have a melody for a single voice and just one-note bassline. How do you "blow" that up to whole choir S/A/T/B ? I get that it depends on the piece, but let's say that if melody is given to S one would like to use A / T / B for something else than block chords. 8)

I know one answer; study Bach. Anything else?


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## jaeroe (Feb 1, 2015)

Take a 'traditional' harmony class or take some lessons with a person that teaches one. baroque counter point will teach you about getting away from the block chord effect (chorale). Baroque and renaissance polyphonic pieces will help with having lines of greater interest - more imitative writing. but, there is no substitute for looking at what great pieces have done. it's a pretty big topic if you want it so sound decent.

Bach's two and three part inventions and the well-templered clavier were good enough for mozart and beethoven for learning counter point. if you want to get away from the block chord effect, you want to think about line and have the harmony just seem like a product of lines interacting.


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## patrick76 (Feb 1, 2015)

If you're looking for something quick you might check out some basic info for counterpoint here - http://hum.uchicago.edu/classes/zbikowski/species.html

If you want more info try these books -
-Counterpoint by Kent Kennan
-The Study of Counterpoint from Johann Fux edited by Alfred Mann


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## tokatila (Feb 1, 2015)

Thanks for the tips; just one (what might be a stupid) question though; are the traditional counterpoint rules still used in "modern" orchestral music. Or do the "rules" make the music sound dated, are the parallel fifths still the biggest sin?


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## jaeroe (Feb 1, 2015)

parallel 5th's parallel octaves etc are only a big deal if it makes the voice leading sound bad/weird. that's why they became 'rules' in counter point teaching. for this type of writing (independent lines) it can throw off the balance of lines and or make lines seem like they suddenly disappear or become suddenly thin or stressed. so, use your ear.

starting with impressionistic music parallel motion was not only ok, but a great device. but, it worked because the lines weren't independent. if you have 'block chords' it can be fine. if you have separate melodies, counter melodies, it can often sound bad or weak.

with any rules in music, i think the thing is to understand why they became rules. rules blindly followed are stupid - it should only matter how things sound, and with live musicians, how playable/singable what you write is. but, rules often become so, or better 'guide lines' for a reason. it's really more a general practice.

but, species counter point is great to understand in general concept. but, it is just a method of teaching counter point - they isolate the different types of rhythmic interaction so you look at one thing at a time and build as you go. that way it is broken down and not overwhelming. but, no body writes pieces of music just thinking of species counter point.

but, avoiding parallels certainly won't make things sounded dated. cheesy lines and corny harmonic decisions make things sound dates. read up some and then use your ear and best judgement.

there's plenty of great vocal and choral music from Debussy on that doesn't strictly adhere to the old 'rules', but those people were certainly aware of the rules and why they were rules/guidelines. check out vaughn williams even. then there's the people more out there - berio, etc. plenty of music to check out.

the above mentioned books on counter point are useful. there is also a decent section on choirs in the strauss edited version of berlioz's 'treatise on instrumention' that might be worth a quick read.


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## Anders Wall (Feb 1, 2015)

tokatila @ Mon Feb 02 said:


> ...are the traditional counterpoint rules still used in "modern" orchestral music. Or do the "rules" make the music sound dated, are the parallel fifths still the biggest sin?


Yes, NO, naaaa I'd say octaves as just as bad. Watch out for the hidden ones...
Avoid those minor 9th btw bass and tenor.
Small steps in the inner parts.

Best of luck!

/Anders


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## Anders Wall (Feb 1, 2015)

jaeroe @ Mon Feb 02 said:


> ...the above mentioned books on counter point are useful. there is also a decent section on choirs in the strauss edited version of berlioz's 'treatise on instrumention' that might be worth a quick read.



Here's a link to the book.
http://goo.gl/iD3K3j

It's on IMSPL so it should be free for most of us.
If you don't understand french then use the Translations tab and look of a english one :roll: 

Best,

/Anders


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## bbunker (Feb 1, 2015)

Why not see for you for yourself?

Plenty of Morten Lauridsen's choral works are available online if you google a bit. Then there's the Cantique de Jean Racine and Faure's Requiem for the French side. Carmina Burana's a good litany of 'modern' effects, including parallelism in choral music.

If I was going to make a blanket statement, I'd say that the rules are very much a useful part of modern choral writing. Basically, parallelism makes many voices sound like one. A good thing when writing in some idioms and for instruments where you want to turn your ensemble into a big machine of sound. Turning 100 singers into one usually works against the grain, and it's a lot rarer, even in composers who tend more towards parallelism and 'rule-breaking.' Don't believe me? Check out Pelleas and Melisande - Ravel loves to deconstruct the inherited rulebook, but the way he treats the voice is different, and special.

I'd say before you write a note for chorus, you should spend at least some time with Palestrina, Bach, Mendelssohn, Brahms, Ligeti and Lauridsen.


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## marclawsonmusic (Feb 1, 2015)

A few thoughts, assuming you are writing triads...

- Only have one third per chord
- Inner voices should move as economically as possible
- Try to keep the distance between each part to one octave or less
- Each voice should sound good when played on its own
- Movement of the voices should (ideally) exhibit contrary motion, as opposed to parallel motion (this is much easier to see on a score page - it is actually fun to try to avoid parallel fifths!)
- Movement by a third is OK, a fifth is probably too much (mostly for the inner voices - bass and melody lines tend to make bigger leaps, while tenor can stay on the same note for a while)
- Use larger intervals below middle C, closer intervals above

SATB is actually very useful for strings-writing too. You can assign each voice to a section (V1 = S, V2 = A, VA = T, VC = B) and double the basses with cellos to get nice, lush string parts.

Anyway, these are some things that stuck with me from my composition and voice-leading lessons. I am sure there are those around here who will say this is all crap, but these things were helpful to me when I learned them.


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## benatural (Feb 1, 2015)

Some other ones that have managed not to leak out of my brain... Leading tones resolve upward, and b7s resolve downward. Contrary motion between bass and soprano (or any voice I suppose) is also a desirable thing. Then you have open and closed voicing which applies to any kind of homophonic (EDIT jeez that autocorrect used the wrong word ffs) writing not just SATB.

But, I'd recommend reading through Bach's 371 4 part chorales if you ever get a chance. Try to find it on a grand staff if you can, though I suppose if you want to be super hard core you can read it in score format. If all you do is read them with no analysis you'll still learn a ton through osmosis. Bach is that  good.


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## tokatila (Feb 2, 2015)

Yup. Thank you again for excellent and concrete suggestions. 

Ok, so let's assume that you know your basic "rules", do you actively take them into the account when writing OR do you write as you please and then "correct" them?

Or,gasp, have you internalized rules so well that you don't have to think about them?


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## bryla (Feb 2, 2015)

Many of the things that are said here are harmony 101. For that I can recommend Gauldin's book 'Harmonic Practice in Tonal Music'.

I may not have internalized the rules, but I have internalized how good voicing and voice leading looks/sounds like.


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## JoKern (Feb 2, 2015)

bbunker @ Sun Feb 01 said:


> I'd say before you write a note for chorus, you should spend at least some time with Palestrina, Bach, Mendelssohn, Brahms, Ligeti and Lauridsen.



And the Verdi Requiem. :wink: So great. 
But Bryla is right - it's harmony 101 and will help you also in writing for the other sections of the orchestra. 

Perhaps a little off topic, but this masterclass by John Powell about his choir (and voices) writing in his films is great: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqGLRQqChGc 
At least I got encouraged to record and try more.


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## Living Fossil (Feb 2, 2015)

tokatila @ Sun Feb 01 said:


> Let's assume you compose on piano and have a melody for a single voice and just one-note bassline. How do you "blow" that up to whole choir S/A/T/B ? I get that it depends on the piece, but let's say that if melody is given to S one would like to use A / T / B for something else than block chords. 8)



Music is not about doing something that's good, but about doing the right thing.
Therefore it's difficult to generalize.
Sometimes you can hear arrangements where you can smell how proud the author was that he's able to avoid parallel 5ths and write some little contrapunctical voices.
And you also hear how stupid those efforts were in that specific context.
Somehow like working in the wood in a Tuxado.

A basic advice for writing for choir:
- if you write a traditional SATB texture, avoid distances bigger than an octave between voices. Those gaps sound bad in almost every situation.

- it's not necessary to write a conventional 4voice arrangement, if the harmonic structure is clear. You can also double a voice in octaves. Or you can write a duophonic texture for the male voices that's doubled in the upper octave by women.

- a great inspiration for writing for choir can be found in lots of Soul-Songs, R&B, etc.
Prince had some great unconventional voicings in some of his choirs.

- a great source for studying what 2 voices can achieve can be found in ABBA-songs.
The counterpoint between the two voices is often fantastic.

- in addition to the namedroppings above i would suggest to have a deeper look at Bruckner's "Te deum". Also take some russian composers like Shostakovitch to see what they did with choirs.


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## tokatila (Feb 2, 2015)

So thank you once more for the latest advice, I'm very glad for so many (and diverse!) suggestions. 

As a first step; I ordered Kennan's book (bloody expensive = must be good... 8) ), and went to the IMSLP and started to work through Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky.

Next thing you will be likely hearing is done with Soundiron Mars&Venus libraries...


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## fiestared (Feb 2, 2015)

WallofSound @ 2/2/2015 said:


> jaeroe @ Mon Feb 02 said:
> 
> 
> > ...the above mentioned books on counter point are useful. there is also a decent section on choirs in the strauss edited version of berlioz's 'treatise on instrumention' that might be worth a quick read.
> ...



Thanks Anders for the link, this is rarely the case, but this time it's an advantage to speak French...


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## markstyles (Feb 18, 2015)

Coursera.org is offering a free course on 4 part writing like Mozart.. It is just finishing up. They usually wait a bit and repeat again.. It's good..

You can also just google 'writing 4 part harmony'..
I found quite a bit, which re-inforced what Coursera was saying, or making it more decipherable..


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## peterspiano (Feb 25, 2015)

i think perhaps one good tip is find what you like...try and find the scores too...if you can't find the scores of the stuff..in this case music which is similar to the style of what you're wanting to arrange..transcribe it. Just transcribing music of the style that you want to write will help you write in that style. Then analize it! Analzing is a fine art in itself..but one can start easy....analize everything you can think of and try and simplyify the music to it's bare essence...what makes this pieceof music work...if you can describe what makes it work in a few written sentences..then you're a step forwards. Then try and use this gained knowlege to answer you own question. As i'm sure the others have written here..there is never just one answer for how one arranges music..or writies music. As with all art...there are rules..there is the breaking of the rules..there are no rules..sounds confusing...but find out what your taste is...find out why you like it...find out the tricks of that style...don't "copy" it..but learn what makes it work. No composer invented the wheel everytime they started.. we're all standing on the sholders of others... you get the idea ^^ etc etc etc..


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## peterspiano (Feb 25, 2015)

and of course basic and advanced knowlege of harmony and counterpoint and a basic understanding of voices will help here to. In music..as is the case in all crafts..understanding and having a good comand of the basics will influence the end product. Build at the base...the more you build at the base the better the end prodcut will be..


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## peterspiano (Feb 25, 2015)

and i know you said "I know one answer; study Bach. Anything else?" but..he harmonized 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 hundred cantatas...we have the honor of still haveing 250 or so to study...so one easy thing..just stick em on the piano and play thouhg them...then after that gets boring...analize how he did em...which chords..use roman numerals or functional harmony if you know it. which chords are in root position..which in first inversion..2nd inversion..get familiar with his use of how he does 7th chords..all of the different inverisons...with specifically 4 voice satb...putting bach to the side and saying (sorry..i'm not trying to be disrespectfull) what else can i study other than him...is like saying...hm...i can't even think of a propper analogy...it's worth spending time studying those 250 or so chorals..not all of them..but you'll learn a lot and it's worth it..one gets a LOT better after analying and just take the melody and harmonize them you're self..then compare.. blah blah blah...^^


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