# Ircam SPAT or Altiverb 7



## snattack (Jun 29, 2012)

Hi!

There's probably a thread about this somewhere, but I couldn't find it.

Since these two plugins currently are just about the same price range, which one would you use for positioning? Would be nice to hear pros and cons both regarding sound quality and workflow. Seems like Altiverb updated it's positioning function in version 7 according to the videos (?), so it seems a breeze to work with, but it's convolutionary, so I guess there could be problems there. There are few video/sound examples of SPAT, but the review's I've read all praise this plugn.

I already own the Lexicon PCM Reverb, but it's quite complicated for positioning, my plan is to use either of the above mentioned plugins to position the orchestra in a "dryer" stage and then use Lexicon on this for the tail.

Best,
Andreas


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## Peter Alexander (Jun 29, 2012)

You might start by reading the 3 reviews on http://www.soniccontrol.tv (www.soniccontrol.tv).

In search type in re-peat and read his posts.

Spat is algorithmic, Altiverb is convolution. Major differences in sound and approach.

BTW, I think they're in the same price range through July 31 when the Spat sale ends. I have no idea how much Spat will cost after that.


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## Daryl (Jun 29, 2012)

I would say SPAT without question. Mind you that may be coloured by the fact that Altiverb 7 doesn't exist for Windows customers, and there is no guarantee that it ever will. :wink: 

Having said that, I do have Altiverb 6, and given a choice I would have bought Vienna Suite in preference, as not only does it have a load of other top quality plugs, both the convolution and hybrid reverbs are fantastic.

But for placement, SPAT. 

D


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## snattack (Jun 30, 2012)

Thanks for the replies!

Questions: in SPAT, are there presets of different room sizes? I'm not that good of an engineer to model the perfect "faked scoring stage" from scratch =)

Best,
A


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## Daryl (Jun 30, 2012)

snattack @ Sat Jun 30 said:


> Thanks for the replies!
> 
> Questions: in SPAT, are there presets of different room sizes? I'm not that good of an engineer to model the perfect "faked scoring stage" from scratch =)
> 
> ...


Yes, but I tend to use a small room (or none at all) for placement, and my convolution and other algorithmic reverbs for the rest.

D


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## star.keys (Jul 3, 2012)

If I have a choice of only one reverb, for me it will be Altiverb
SPAT sometimes adds colors to the sound and I don't like that


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## Mr. Anxiety (Jul 4, 2012)

My buddy just purchased SPAT for his Logic ring. He just rang me to say he's running MAC 64bit and wasn't sure if SPAT would behave, being only 32 bit. I don't know Logic, so I thought I'd ask here. Sorry if this is too off topic.

Thanks,

Mr A


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jul 4, 2012)

Today, I spent a couple of hours testing the SPAT demo and I have to say, not only does the virtual positioning works wonders, somehow, I feel its making the samples a bit more lively. 

I am not sure what is it that is making me feel that way but the instruments do get 'set' in their space - even after I have kept my ER and LR on. It makes that extra 20% difference and the possibilities are enormous. 

I am definitely picking it up this month. 

Specially for VSL users, this is amazing and the great thing is that it fits right into our standard model of working with reverbs. 

SM Trumpet immediately was sounding pushed back and great. I had a little trouble with the SM Horn but I am not sure how to use SPAT properly. Gotta read the manual.

What a great software and its a powerful plug in, in the hands of composers who must rely on sample mock-ups for final delivery.

Powerful stuff for non-orchestral music as well. Equally so.

I think I am going to love this combo:

SPAT -> FORTI VS -> Aether/Breeze!


Best,

Tanuj.


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## Stephen Baysted (Jul 4, 2012)

Got to agree with everything you said Tanuj.


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## Peter Alexander (Jul 4, 2012)

@Tanuj - read the review/tutorials at http://www.soniccontrol.tv (www.soniccontrol.tv) first. You'll get further faster.


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## Jack Weaver (Jul 4, 2012)

Mr. A,

SPAT works just fine here on Logic 9.1.x - of course it's within the 32-Bit Bridge.

HTH

.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jul 5, 2012)

OK! I just got SPAT. Will be posting soon with my thoughts - very excited!


Tanuj.


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## leafInTheWind (Jul 6, 2012)

OT:
Is logic's binaural panner similar to spat in terms of spatial position?


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 6, 2012)

leafInTheWind @ Fri Jul 06 said:


> OT:
> Is logic's binaural panner similar to spat in terms of spatial position?



Not really. It's mostly for a sense of space and depth when using headphones.


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## leafInTheWind (Jul 6, 2012)

Thanks Jay! So the effects of SPAT can actually be heard on monitors as well as phones?


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## re-peat (Jul 7, 2012)

leafInTheWind @ Fri Jul 06 said:


> So the effects of SPAT can actually be heard on monitors as well as phones?


Leaf,

Yes, of course. If you work with SPAT in a ‘normal’ stereo mix, everything you hear coming out of your monitors should be heard on headphones as well. And vice versa. (Provided your equipment is of reasonable quality of course.)
If, however, you set up SPAT for multi-channel output configurations (for example: surround), you might not get a complete picture of what exactly it is that SPAT's doing when listen to it on (stereo) headphones.

_


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## re-peat (Jul 7, 2012)

star.keys @ Tue Jul 03 said:


> If I have a choice of only one reverb, for me it will be Altiverb
> SPAT sometimes adds colors to the sound and I don't like that


Star.Keys,

Can you perhaps give an example of how and when SPAT "adds colors to the sound"? I really love to hear that.
Even more strange is the fact that you seem to imply that Altiverb *doesn't* add color to the mix. I say 'strange' because, if there's one type of reverb which will nearly always color a mix (and often in a very pronounced way), then surely, it is a convolution-based reverb like Altiverb.

(Not saying that 'coloring a mix' is necessarily a bad thing. If there's one reason I sometimes still use Altiverb or QL Spaces, it's precisely because of the characteristic colors of some of their IR's.)

_


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## leafInTheWind (Jul 9, 2012)

Thanks re-peat! I will have to try spat when I get advanced enough. Hobbyist here  Cheers!


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## star.keys (Jul 9, 2012)

re-peat @ Sat Jul 07 said:


> star.keys @ Tue Jul 03 said:
> 
> 
> > If I have a choice of only one reverb, for me it will be Altiverb
> ...



Sure. When I move instrument within the space back and forth, to me it sounds like an EQ is applied to the instrument. This effect is very obvious to my ears with no element of any doubt. I simply can't control that effect.

I really like those tails in impulses plates in 'gear' category, and TODD AO is still the best for room simulation and works like a charm for me.

Of course, none of that comes close to what Vienna MIR can achieve, it's a totally different beast. However we are comparing algorithmic Vs. convolution / hybrid here, again they are different things but if I have to choose 1, it will be the Altiverb.


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## re-peat (Jul 10, 2012)

Star.Keys,

The further you move a sound away from a microphone, the duller it sounds. That’s elementary physics. SPAT didn’t come up with this effect, nature did. A violin recorded up close has a lot more detail and definition in the high end than a violin recorded from a distance. The further away, the more blurred and muffled the sound becomes. And that’s exactly what SPAT emulates, and it does that quite superbly, to my ears.

Now, I’m not sure how you use Altiverb, but if you use as a send effect — which is how many people seem to use it —, then you obviously don’t get this ‘blurring by distance’ effect, because you simply add reverberation to a dry signal. This may be the way you prefer to hear things — and it’s an esthetical choice you’re entirely free to make, obviously —, but it is far from an accurate simulation of what happens in real life with sounds recorded from a distance.
Put differently: there is no way to create a believable illusion of distance and depth in a mix, if all your Altiverb instances are inserted on aux buses. At the very least you’d also need an additional EQ to muffle those sounds which you want to position at the back.

If you were to use Altiverb as an insert effect, and use its built-in placement functionality (its so-called ‘Positioner’), you’ll find that it attempts to do the exact same thing as what SPAT (or any other serious spatializer, like MIR) is doing: suggest distance by, among other things, increased blurring/muffling of the source signal. Because, again: you just can’t suggest distance convincingly without some amount of blurring. It’s impossible. A trumpet that is supposed to be positioned at the back of the orchestra can never sound as bright and clear as that same instrument positioned in front of the orchestra. 
(One of the oldest tricks in the mixing book says exactly that: if you want to push a sound a bit back in a mix, make sure to roll off some of the highs.)

You could use SPAT as a send effect as well if you like, of course: keep your source signal untouched (and crystal clear), and simply add SPAT’s reflections and reverberation to taste. But again: you will never be able to achieve any believable suggestion of depth and/or distance with this technique. (And, in my opinion, it would also be a complete waste of SPAT because it’s a usage of the software which completely ignores the very thing which SPAT was designed to do.) 

_


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## star.keys (Jul 12, 2012)

Hi Re-peat,

I forgot elementary physics while pursuing engineering in science  I will listen again from your perspective, however dullness of the sound is not what I was referring to but the impact of EQ to the "character" (am I using the right term? it is hard to explain) of the sound. We all have different ears so I don't insist that you have to hear what I hear.


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