# Considering Berlin Strings



## muk (Nov 25, 2018)

With the current discount the price for Berlin Strings has come down to a level where I am actually considering buying it. What I am looking for is a string library that can do classical style music confidently. With Hollywood Strings and CSS I have the romantic widescreen format style covered. I have Dimension Strings for studio/tv-style. For classical/early romantic style I am relying on Light & Sound Chamber Strings currently. As much as I love the sound of this library, it simply is a bit short on articulations for this kind of music.

I do like the tone and articulation list of Berlin Strings. But there are some factors keeping me from plunging right in. Most importantly, I have some considerable doubts about Orchestral Tools quality control. I bought Berlin Strings First Chairs to test the waters. And while I like the tone, this library is a hot mess of inconsistent recording and programming. If Berlin Strings are anything like that, I won't be able to use it much. And with OT not allowing resales, I'd have sunk a lot of money with the purchase.
On top of that I recently sent a support ticket to OT because the Niente-function doesn't work for me with BST FC 2.0. I never heard back. It's no big deal, and I'll send another email. But it doesn't help to instill any sort of confidence in the company either.

Can anybody comment on the consistency of Berlin Strings? How is the programming? Are the levels and dynamic range between articulations and instruments consistent?

Other things holding me back are that Project Sam hinted at a new library. I really like how their libraries sound. Downside: no infos about the product yet. Might not be strings at all, and even if it was it might not be a concept that I like. Similar thing with Sonokinetic. They confirmed that there will be a strings library similar to their ensemble woodwinds. Love the sound of their libs, but they are slow at releasing new libraries. It might be years until such a library finally comes out.

Thanks to Blakus's legato comparison video I am confident that I like the ensemble sound of Berlin Strings. But that First Chair purchase was painful. If Berlin Strings is anything like that I'd better spend my money elsewhere.

The only other contender I see at the moment is Spitfire Chamber Strings. Seems to be a phenomal library. But I am simply not keen on the sound of the long articulations (the short arts sound superb). Maybe the section sizes are smaller than I'd like. But I prefer Light & Sound's and Berlin Strings' tone over SCS.

********************************************************************

TL/DR: How consistent is the recording and programming of Berlin Strings? In your personal experience, is it suitable for mockups of classical/early romantic style music?


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## mikeh-375 (Nov 25, 2018)

Me too Muk, in fact half an hour ago, I decided to pull the trigger. I also do concert music and the legatos alone with their vibrancy, expression and fluidity have sold it for me. The section size lends itself to half divisi too and all of those RR's. Mind you there are essential expansion packs too which I'll probably get - any _new_ ideas for getting around a wife....
FWIW, I've had no issues with their Brass and wind and the capsule ability to morph artics is a neat feature when used with intelligence and knowledge.


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## Daniel F. (Nov 25, 2018)

muk from my experience with berlin strings and a couple of their other libraries you seem to have had the same experience i have. They uses a lot of resoursers and is not very well optimized. Its also very inconsistent. A lot of leg transitions have scarps and noises in them making them almost unusable if you want to use them multiple times because they sound repeating. the delay for short notes and long notes and legato is different for every transition and note. Making a fast part with short notes is going to sound bad. Theres also bugs that make the library a drag to work with. There is not a mix mic in berlin series only in woodwinds.
And if your going to want to replace all your libraries with berlin series you are going to have to buy berlin brass which was huge disappointment. The idea is good but they did it bad.
I haven't used any of the berlin series in long time so they maybe have fixed it but i don't think so.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Nov 25, 2018)

@muk 

My opinion is that Berlin Strings is the most consistent of all their products.

The expansion packs are fantastic also.

The ability to add legato transitions to artics such as port short work fantastically in BS too.


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## mikeh-375 (Nov 25, 2018)

Simon, any idea how much RAM the Main library soaks up if you load in the full range of artics?


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## St0rMl0rD (Nov 25, 2018)

I'm getting it. I've been using Inspire and Inspire 2 for most of my orchestral writing, so with this offer, I just can't pass it.


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## muk (Nov 25, 2018)

Thank you for all the help guys. 

@mikeh-375 amazing. Please let me know how you like it once you spent some time with it. 

@Daniel F. what you are describing is exactly what I fear, what with my experience with the First Chairs Library. Not promising at all. Are you using the 2.0 update? If not, maybe some of the problems are fixed there?

@SimonCharlesHanna how often do you use it? Would you say that it is relatively easy to program, or are you fighting problems constantly? With the price of a flagship string library I am hoping for flagship quality in all aspects, not just the sound. How would you compare the consistency with other developers libraries? 

Currently I am leaning towards not buying it. After First Chairs I simply don't have that sort of trust in OT's concepts and quality control. And the feedback here isn't too encouraging either so far.


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## Daniel F. (Nov 25, 2018)

The capsule version. The first one was even worse from what people said.
Theres also only fingered legato for violins 1. The slurred legato can sound un even but just play with the legato volume slider and it can sound ok.
I don't think theres away to crossfade between vibrato and non vibrato without retrigger the note and the legato dosnt sound good with the non vibrato samples.

Here are a sample of the short notes i talked about. Its a few yrs old.

I think the order is albion one, ark 1 oct, ark 1 uni, berlin strings violins 1 spiccato, violins 1 exposed spiccato maybe, albion one, ark 1, berlin strings violins 1 spiccato. The last one is me just playing the same note multiplet times and you can hear the odd note.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Nov 25, 2018)

Daniel F. said:


> The capsule version. The first one was even worse from what people said.
> Theres also only fingered legato for violins 1. The slurred legato can sound un even but just play with the legato volume slider and it can sound ok.
> I don't think theres away to crossfade between vibrato and non vibrato without retrigger the note and the legato dosnt sound good with the non vibrato samples.
> 
> ...





yikes.

Albion 1 is a surprise.

sticking with the Arks.


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## lp59burst (Nov 25, 2018)

Hmm... I've been on the fence with this too...   this thread now has me leaning a bit more towards "no"...


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## Saxer (Nov 25, 2018)

@muk Aside from those inconsistencies I think it will be a library for you. I find it the most clear and 'European' sounding library. It has a lot of useable shorts: spicc/ tight spicc/ feathered spicc/ stacc/ marcatos with playable length... 
For my taste it has a bit too much high end but it's easy to low pass them (if you like).
The different attacks on longs/legatos are very helpful (except the weird feel when using a breath controller) and there are two vibratos beside non-vib. I think it's worth to walk around some flaws when they are still notable in a final arrangement.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Nov 25, 2018)

I worked a long period of time with Berlin Strings, and it gave me many many good moments. I remember I did that mozart Figaro Mockup with Berlin Strings mixed a bit mit the MA1. However it is true: there are things which mentioned can be annoying, though imo still one of the best libraries I have so far. Sure just my personal pov.


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## Daniel F. (Nov 25, 2018)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> yikes.
> 
> Albion 1 is a surprise.
> 
> sticking with the Arks.



Albion is really good for layer. Very consistent shorts. But lot of the patches are synthy. Good for layers because they become very thick.

As saxer says its not everything bad. Some things are very good in the library. But for full price when it came out i except something better and more quality control. For me consistency is very important


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## sostenuto (Nov 25, 2018)

@ lp49burst …...

Me, as well, and coveted Berlin for long time. Even with BlkFri promo *+* (2) 100Euro Coupons, the total Berlin Strings content is still a major investment _ especially in USD ! ( ~ $1,380.)
Notable level of issues remain problematic for many here.


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## Britpack50 (Nov 25, 2018)

I thought OT was la creme de la creme but maybe that is more the ARKS?


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## Daniel F. (Nov 25, 2018)

the only ones i trust with consistency right now is cinematic studio from cinematic samples. they not done enough libraries to know if they will always be good but so far they have all been very good. Lets see if brass will be as well.
Audio imperia also seems to be consistent. but their librarys is more for epic and misses a lot of articulations for general music.

I think berlin series is not that bad. But they could have made it much better. Woodwinds and percussion are their best libraries.

Heres another test i did with berlin brass. I think the order is berlin brass, ark 1, berlin brass horn 1, berlin brass horn 2, berlin brass 3, berlin brass ensemble, ark 1, ew 6hrn or cinebrass 12horn. But i made it a long time ago so I don't remember all. All are cc 127 i think.


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## lp59burst (Nov 25, 2018)

sostenuto said:


> @ lp49burst …...
> 
> Me, as well, and coveted Berlin for long time. Even with BlkFri promo *+* (2) 100Euro Coupons, the total Berlin Strings content is still a major investment _ especially in USD ! ( ~ $1,380.)
> Notable level of issues remain problematic for many here.


I was considering getting the BS Main Library with Exp "B" which makes it around $630 after using my $100 voucher. Then there's PayPal's less than optimal exchange rate adder, and my Credit Card's foreign transaction fee adder, making it probably closer to $650 once the dust settles.

Then, I was going to wait and see if the Expansions go on sale down the road and if so pick up Exp "A" & "E". I have no interest in Exp "D".

But, now... hmm... we'll see...


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## Mike Fox (Nov 25, 2018)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> yikes.
> 
> Albion 1 is a surprise.
> 
> sticking with the Arks.


Hehe, yup. The Arks are light years ahead (despite the amount of baked in reverb).


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## Mike Fox (Nov 25, 2018)

I was watching the BS walkthrough video on OT's website and noticed that one of the patches was consuming close to 5gb...crazy.

I also keep reading from multiple people that BS is a RAM hog. I would avoid if that's truly the case.


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## Casiquire (Nov 25, 2018)

Wow, this thread really surprises me. Based on the price point and their reputation elsewhere I thought these were essentially the strings to end the search for strings, and if they had divisi I might have bought them already. That's pretty crazy.


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## lp59burst (Nov 25, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> Wow, this thread really surprises me. Based on the price point and their reputation elsewhere I thought these were essentially the strings to end the search for strings, and if they had divisi I might have bought them already. That's pretty crazy.


Yah, me too...

For me at least, when something is priced well out of my reach I'm less likely to really dig in and do as thorough of a review. Once the price point drops to within my range of consideration I'm more likely to take a deeper dive.


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## Mike Fox (Nov 25, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> Wow, this thread really surprises me. Based on the price point and their reputation elsewhere I thought these were essentially the strings to end the search for strings, and if they had divisi I might have bought them already. That's pretty crazy.


Except price isn't always a good indicator of quality. 

I think BS sound fantastic, and I've heard much more positive than negative things. 

But at the end of the day, I think string libraries haven't really progressed much in the past 10 years.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Nov 25, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> Wow, this thread really surprises me. Based on the price point and their reputation elsewhere I thought these were essentially the strings to end the search for strings, and if they had divisi I might have bought them already. That's pretty crazy.



if they discounted this time last year, 

different story.


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## Michael Antrum (Nov 25, 2018)

Daniel F. said:


> Albion is really good for layer. Very consistent shorts. But lot of the patches are synthy. Good for layers because they become very thick.



There's Albion1 and there's Albion ONE - and they are a bit different.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Nov 25, 2018)

mikeybabes said:


> There's Albion1 and there's Albion ONE - and they are a bit different.



i haven't quite gotten a grip on this distinction yet.

ONE is the legacy and preferred version?

is that still available in some form?


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## Michael Antrum (Nov 25, 2018)

The original is often referred to as Albion 1.

The reboot is Albion ONE.

Whilst there are some who prefer ONE to 1, I am in the camp of preferring 1 to ONE, especially for strings. Many feel the same way, though there are others who do not.

You cannot buy 1 any more, only ONE.


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## sostenuto (Nov 25, 2018)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> i haven't quite gotten a grip on this distinction yet.
> 
> ONE is the legacy and preferred version?
> 
> is that still available in some form?



Yeh …. I've read many posts on this, but still Foggy! In Albion ONE there is 'The Albion Legacy' selection and I thought that would contain the 'prized' Albion 1 content. 
Is this NOT the case ?? If NOT, what is The Albion Legacy all about ??


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## jeremiahpena (Nov 25, 2018)

Quick note for if you find a "bad" round robin that's messing with consistency in any Orchestral Tools library, if you go to edit that articulation, there's a display on the bottom right that shows the RR layers. Play the note until you see which layer it's in, then click on that layer to disable it.


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## Casiquire (Nov 25, 2018)

Mike Fox said:


> Except price isn't always a good indicator of quality.
> 
> I think BS sound fantastic, and I've heard much more positive than negative things.
> 
> But at the end of the day, I think string libraries haven't really progressed much in the past 10 years.



I absolutely agree, but I'm referring to the price in combination with the reputation they seem to have. I didn't see much incongruity between the two until now.


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## sostenuto (Nov 25, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> I absolutely agree, but I'm referring to the price in combination with the reputation they seem to have. I didn't see much incongruity between the two until now.



Agree, and another off-putting issue (for me) is critiques of Berlin Brass. 
My skills are weak and have hoped to offset this by using main Orch Libs from one top source. 
If I need to go to another Brass Lib, then my OT focus gets blurry.


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## Casiquire (Nov 25, 2018)

sostenuto said:


> Agree, and another off-putting issue (for me) is critiques of Berlin Brass.
> My skills are weak and have hoped to offset this by using main Orch Libs from one top source.
> If I need to go to another Brass Lib, then my OT focus gets blurry.



As a side-note, I always suggest against trying to offset a lack of experience with the most expensive tools. Work your way up. If you don't have a ton of confidence in your skill set just yet, you should equally lack confidence in your purchasing decisions, so it's OK to start smaller and see how you do and then you have a baseline for what needs improvement and what needs upgrading going forward. Then you avoid buying something expensive that you never use


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## Mike Fox (Nov 25, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> As a side-note, I always suggest against trying to offset a lack of experience with the most expensive tools. Work your way up. If you don't have a ton of confidence in your skill set just yet, you should equally lack confidence in your purchasing decisions, so it's OK to start smaller and see how you do and then you have a baseline for what needs improvement and what needs upgrading going forward. Then you avoid buying something expensive that you never use


Couldn't agree more. I used Garageband JamPacks for two long years when I first started.


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## sostenuto (Nov 25, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> As a side-note, I always suggest against trying to offset a lack of experience with the most expensive tools. Work your way up. If you don't have a ton of confidence in your skill set just yet, you should equally lack confidence in your purchasing decisions, so it's OK to start smaller and see how you do and then you have a baseline for what needs improvement and what needs upgrading going forward. Then you avoid buying something expensive that you never use



I get this, but there surely should be some benefit with full orchestral content from one, reliable source. 
To each his /her own, but going arbitrarily to a 'cheapie' source is not of interest.
I'm either back to _very comfortable_ Spitfire Audio or Cinesamples.
Cinematic Studios or Audiobro are cool for Strings, but then …… Pandora's Box opens to match up Brass and WW.


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## lp59burst (Nov 25, 2018)

Mike Fox said:


> Couldn't agree more. I used Garageband JamPacks for two long years when I first started.


I was "*in*" a garage band jamming for many many years before I started...


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## Casiquire (Nov 25, 2018)

sostenuto said:


> I get this, but there surely should be some benefit with full orchestral content from one, reliable source.
> To each his /her own, but going arbitrarily to a 'cheapie' source is not of interest.
> I'm either back to _very comfortable_ Spitfire Audio or Cinesamples.
> Cinematic Studios or Audiobro are cool for Strings, but then …… Pandora's Box opens to match up Brass and WW.



Well not much longer for the brass! And VSL is still the one to beat for WW, and they happen to be one of those cheapies if you go with Special Edition. I think my point overall is that the purchase is going to be arbitrary regardless, so going arbitrary-big is riskier than going arbitrary-small.


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## Mike Fox (Nov 25, 2018)

lp59burst said:


> I was "*in*" a garage band jamming for many many years before I started...


Ha! That makes two of us.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Nov 25, 2018)

Mike Fox said:


> Ha! That makes two of us.



3


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## jbuhler (Nov 25, 2018)

sostenuto said:


> I get this, but there surely should be some benefit with full orchestral content from one, reliable source.
> To each his /her own, but going arbitrarily to a 'cheapie' source is not of interest.
> I'm either back to _very comfortable_ Spitfire Audio or Cinesamples.
> Cinematic Studios or Audiobro are cool for Strings, but then …… Pandora's Box opens to match up Brass and WW.


At some point you just have to take the plunge, but I agree with @Casiquire that it makes sense when starting out to go "arbitrarily small," the point being that it will allow you to figure out what you like and dislike about the set-up you have and then you can make more rational (less arbitrary) purchases to fill in the deficiencies of your current set up. I have mostly Spitfire stuff as the core but also have a lot of OT, Project Sam, Heavyocity, and so forth. I have not found that mixing these libraries together generally causes problems for me, though of course others have different needs in this respect. 

I seem to recall that you have quite an arsenal already, and if so you already have what you need to start doing this assessment: compose or arrange a number of pieces, figure out where your sample libraries are resisting what you what to do with your music, look around to see if there is something better for your needs. At that point you can do something like a cost-benefit analysis of getting the new library—though in my experience every purchase is a revelation and reveals pluses and minuses not evident in walkthroughs and reviews, no matter how many I watch.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Nov 25, 2018)

now, if Berlin discounts the Ark series...

MAYHEM!

CM?


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Nov 25, 2018)

Ok, true, BS can be a ramhog when you load in a lot of articulations and use all micings. My tip: Use tree mics and Close for adding a bit detail, or alternatively for a more spreaded sound just surround mics with close mics. You don´t need to use all the micings..even just tree mics sound good on their own. You can use berlin Strings I would say with 32 gigs in a good way. I leave that mockup for you which was done prominently with berlin series. I used a few patches from other libraries but the core skeleton of the strings is OT.


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## sostenuto (Nov 25, 2018)

jbuhler said:


> *****************
> _I seem to recall that you have quite an arsenal already_, and if so you already have what you need to start doing this assessment: compose or arrange a number of pieces, figure out where your sample libraries are resisting what you what to do with your music, look around to see if there is something better for your needs. At that point you can do something like a cost-benefit analysis of getting the new library—though in my experience every purchase is a revelation and reveals pluses and minuses not evident in walkthroughs and reviews, no matter how many I watch.



Yes, I do, and the more quality, miscellaneous Libs I add, the harder it seems to move to major investment in more traditional Orch /Symphony content.
Obviously, this is a personal assessment of needs /wants, and one I need badly to sort.
There is an important 'fun' factor in all this. e.g _Afflatus_ 
As you point out .... walkthroughs and reviews are never like having the actual content. It has been refreshing to see Red Room Audio, Steinberg _ Iconica
who have offered decent, smaller Demos.

THX


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## jbuhler (Nov 25, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Ok, true, BS can be a ramhog when you load in a lot of articulations and use all micings. My tip: Use tree mics and Close for adding a bit detail, or alternatively for a more spreaded sound just surround mics with close mics. You don´t need to use all the micings..even just tree mics sound good on their own. You can use berlin Strings I would say with 32 gigs in a good way. I leave that mockup for you which was done prominently with berlin series. I used a few patches from other libraries but the core skeleton of the strings is OT.



I currently have 32 GB and I struggle with Berlin Strings and two mics. Or to put it the other way around, when I want to use two mics, I have to cut down on the number of articulations loaded, the number of other instruments in the session, or I have to freeze tracks. They use a lot more RAM than do my Spitfire strings with roughly the same number of articulations loaded. I would say 32 GB is minimum for effective use of the library and more is definitely preferable.


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## Casiquire (Nov 25, 2018)

sostenuto said:


> Yes, I do, and the more quality, miscellaneous Libs I add, the harder it seems to move to major investment in more traditional Orch /Symphony content.
> Obviously, this is a personal assessment of needs /wants, and one I need badly to sort.
> There is an important 'fun' factor in all this. e.g _Afflatus_
> As you point out .... walkthroughs and reviews are never like having the actual content. It has been refreshing to see Red Room Audio, and one other? (on HALion)
> ...



Aah, you have already dipped your toes deeper into libraries than I was aware, so yes you're right you probably do have a bit of a sense of direction at this point.


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## jbuhler (Nov 25, 2018)

sostenuto said:


> Yes, I do, and the more quality, miscellaneous Libs I add, the harder it seems to move to major investment in more traditional Orch /Symphony content.


I guess the question is, do you find that the heterogeneity of the instruments you have is a barrier to realizing the music you want to write? Because that might then be a reason to get an orchestra all from one maker. But at that point you should also have a good sense as to which maker's sound best conforms to your musical ideas. Until you can settle on that, it is probably best to wait. But if you have a good inkling that the Berlin sound, or the Spitfire sound, or the VSL sound, or the East West sound, or the Cinesamples sound, etc. is the one that best suits your musical ideas, then you have the answer to your question.

On the other hand, I'm one to talk, as I struggle over whether to buy Berlin Woodwinds even though I already own the Spitfire winds and am more or less happy with them. But the solo clarinet doesn't sound the way I want it to and the library as a whole could stand more articulations and... It's never ending and very difficult to disentangle from GAS.


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## sostenuto (Nov 25, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> Aah, you have already dipped your toes deeper into libraries than I was aware, so yes you're right you probably do have a bit of a sense of direction at this point.



Decent pianist, terrible left-brainer. Technical critique, of orchestral content, has waaay more impact than I can comprehend.
All is fine in terms of Berlin for now. There are solid String alternatives right now, and I surely will not appreciate their subtleties until making a commitment .... _or two or three_. 

THX & regards


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Nov 25, 2018)

muk said:


> @SimonCharlesHanna how often do you use it? Would you say that it is relatively easy to program, or are you fighting problems constantly? With the price of a flagship string library I am hoping for flagship quality in all aspects, not just the sound. How would you compare the consistency with other developers libraries?


Honestly, I hear a lot of people having issues with Orchestral Tools in general that I am just not seeing for myself. There's a few bugs here and there but overall solid for me. FYI my latest tracks are using all Orchestral Tools product.

IMO Berlin Woodwinds are the *most *inconsistent now after the revive (some have playable runs, some not, some have ports some marcs some both, some have reps, some have double/triple tongues etc). Some of the 'reworked' but not rerecorded instruments are so obviously different from the rest, it makes it harder to blend. If you consider them more as a principle player, it helps a bit and you can offer them the solos.

Nothing is as easy to use as Vienna Instruments Pro, but Orchestral Tools do a decent job of emulating the sort of functionality you can get from VIP within Kontakt. As I mentioned earlier - being able to add legato functionality to any artic works really well. I've disabled the use of sustain so that it triggers the legato articulation on all 12 artics in a multi. That way I can use say a port patch polyphonically, then simply press down on my sustain pedal to switch into a monophonic line; works well.

One thing that rarely gets mentioned is that Berlin Strings have recorded 12 Dynamic phrases which are beautiful!

I find Berlin very easy to program - there's lots of options to shape a phrase. I found it much easier to work with than Spitfire regarding their short and medium length articulations. All of their articulations make sense to me when trying to decide and there's a good amount to choose from.

The simulated mute works pretty well too so you can consider all of the articulations available for con sordino too.


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## NoamL (Nov 25, 2018)

sostenuto said:


> I get this, but there surely should be some benefit with full orchestral content from one, reliable source.



Well that's what the developers want us to believe. And no offense to them, they're trying to run a business!

However, in my experience, libraries from different developers can be mixed and matched fairly well. The main challenge of combining them is not any inconsistency of articulations or musicality, but rather that developers choose different volume levels for their libraries. It takes some careful listening at first to match up libraries from different developers. Once you overcome that, it becomes a lot easier to place your most "dry" libraries in the same space as your most "wet" ones.


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## Raphioli (Nov 25, 2018)

NoamL said:


> Once you overcome that, it becomes a lot easier to place your most "dry" libraries in the same space as your most "wet" ones.



If you don't mind me asking, what is your process on pushing dry libraries back? (if its your secret sauce, I can totally understand )
By dry, I mean like VSL or Sample Modeling.

Even using Spaces, it adds a nice reverb tail but i still hear the attack infront of me.
Unless I dial in 100% wet, but at that point it gets flooded with reverb.


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## NoamL (Nov 25, 2018)

Raphioli said:


> If you don't mind me asking, what is your process on pushing dry libraries back?



The further away a sound source gets the more it will:

sound quieter (I'm really starting you off with some Pro Tips)
become more mono / less stereo
have a higher ratio of reverb signal to direct signal
so in general I just use more reverb send and make sure the dry volume isn't out of control (bus them separately).

You can also roll off the high frequencies A LITTLE because they are absorbed faster by air but be careful with this.

btw... on the two mockups you've likely heard here on VI-C... be aware that they are mixed by @Grim_Universe who is like, a wizard.  and probably has lots more tricks. To be very clear, in my own commercial work, I don't achieve that sound yet! I am still learning to mix myself.


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## HelixK (Nov 25, 2018)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Honestly, I hear a lot of people having issues with Orchestral Tools in general that I am just not seeing for myself. There's a few bugs here and there but overall solid for me. FYI my latest tracks are using all Orchestral Tools product.
> 
> IMO Berlin Woodwinds are the *most *inconsistent now after the revive (some have playable runs, some not, some have ports some marcs some both, some have reps, some have double/triple tongues etc). Some of the 'reworked' but not rerecorded instruments are so obviously different from the rest, it makes it harder to blend. If you consider them more as a principle player, it helps a bit and you can offer them the solos.
> 
> ...



Very well put


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## Raphioli (Nov 25, 2018)

NoamL said:


> The further away a sound source gets the more it will:
> 
> sound quieter (I'm really starting you off with some Pro Tips)
> become more mono / less stereo
> ...



Thx NaomL!



> become more mono / less stereo


I've also noticed this. Even after applying reverb, I do feel like the dry instrument is still taking up the same stereo width (field?) to me.
Maybe I should limit the width before applying reverb..

I'm really not good at mixing at all, which is why I tend to stick with mostly libraries recorded in a hall. Strings is an exception since I like to mix the close mics even with libraries recorded in a hall.

I also remember reading about high frequency on another forum a while back, but I couldn't get it to work.
I'll give that a try again! 

Thx again


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## muk (Nov 26, 2018)

Tough call. It seems to be a high quality library, but it also seems to have its fair share of problems. I am not definitely decided, but I think I'll pass. Mainly due to my unfortunate experience with the First Chairs. And if I am to drop 500€ on a strings library, I'd expect it to be my main goto library for strings. Despite the sound - @Saxer you are right, it really seems to be a library for me  - I don't quite see that happen with Orchestral Tools. I guess I'll save the money for Sonokinetic, Project Sam, or LASS 3.


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## Ihnoc (Nov 26, 2018)

I'm in this boat too. I picked up Glory Days and Berlin Brass over the weekend because they were doing something I didn't have and sorely desired (separate parts).

I have the money for Berlin Strings and like the tone but I'm not chomping at the bit like I did for Cinematic Studio Strings or those brass options. I have VSL's Special Edition strings (which are _ok_) and Hollywood Orchestra Gold (who's workflow and articulation inconsistency I despise and I find a really one dimensional sound) so I was considering Berlin for a second fiddle, so to speak. Frankly I feel like my money might be better spent on the Percussion or Special Bows. Still some time left in the week...



AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Ok, true, BS can be a ramhog when you load in a lot of articulations and use all micings. My tip: Use tree mics and Close for adding a bit detail, or alternatively for a more spreaded sound just surround mics with close mics. You don´t need to use all the micings..even just tree mics sound good on their own. You can use berlin Strings I would say with 32 gigs in a good way. I leave that mockup for you which was done prominently with berlin series. I used a few patches from other libraries but the core skeleton of the strings is OT.




Also worth mentioning you can adjust the DFD settings for Kontakt to lower RAM usage (which streams more or less from disk on demand) but this can make it more CPU and disk read intensive.

@AlexanderSchiborr - wonderful mockup. That certainly captures the elements I want from a new string library; was that Close and Tree as you describe?


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## richhickey (Nov 26, 2018)

muk said:


> Tough call. It seems to be a high quality library, but it also seems to have its fair share of problems. I am not definitely decided, but I think I'll pass. Mainly due to my unfortunate experience with the First Chairs. And if I am to drop 500€ on a strings library, I'd expect it to be my main goto library for strings. Despite the sound - @Saxer you are right, it really seems to be a library for me  - I don't quite see that happen with Orchestral Tools. I guess I'll save the money for Sonokinetic, Project Sam, or LASS 3.



I had a similar initial (negative) OT experience with First Chairs as you did. However, I _did_ decide to try the Berlin Collections on BF discount, starting with the strings. I am really glad I did. Overall the sound is fantastic, there are many articulations, the levels and control system are consistent etc. I'm sure I will find niggling details over time, but my first impressions are great, _much_ better than First Chairs (which remain unusable IMO).

And that impression remained positive for the rest of the Berlin collections. I am really looking forward to building a Berlin template. For comparison, I have the full SF and VSL orchestral libs, and, without getting into X vs Y, the OT stuff compares quite favorably.

These libs are expensive, and thus engender high expectations, which is not unreasonable. OTOH, this whole set cost less than a decent electric guitar. The 40% off will go a long way to assuage any frustrations, I hope  I am eyes wide open about the memory use though.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Nov 26, 2018)

Ihnoc said:


> I'm in this boat too. I picked up Glory Days and Berlin Brass over the weekend because they were doing something I didn't have and sorely desired (separate parts).
> 
> I have the money for Berlin Strings and like the tone but I'm not chomping at the bit like I did for Cinematic Studio Strings or those brass options. I have VSL's Special Edition strings (which are _ok_) and Hollywood Orchestra Gold (who's workflow and articulation inconsistency I despise and I find a really one dimensional sound) so I was considering Berlin for a second fiddle, so to speak. Frankly I feel like my money might be better spent on the Percussion or Special Bows. Still some time left in the week...
> 
> ...



I think I used tree and close micings and a bit of surround as well. I mostly turn down a lot the trees and surround and eq the strings in the upper range to soften the sound a bit (there are some sweet spots where you can enhance the quality of the sound quite a bit) I use the close mic not only for adding detail but also to spread a bit the panorama, so I use tge stereo fader to move the the sound.

I still hope that they update berlin strings at some point regarding the legato, because it has depending on the intervall here and there some bumpy transitions, but you can work around that of course (using scipted legato with sustains etc.)


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## cadenzajon (Nov 26, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> I still hope that they update berlin strings at some point regarding the legato, because it has depending on the intervall here and there some bumpy transitions



They published (I think 2 years ago?) an update adding fingered legato and a new spic articulation. Have you been working with it more recently and finding that even with fingered+bow+fast legato options available, you're still forced to do manual workarounds with sustains?


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Nov 26, 2018)

cadenzajon said:


> They published (I think 2 years ago?) an update adding fingered legato and a new spic articulation. Have you been working with it more recently and finding that even with fingered+bow+fast legato options available, you're still forced to do manual workarounds with sustains?



The fingered legato was a very nice gesture of them and it is sounds cool and is definitely a nice option to have. I work still around with the legato sometimes when I want lines which leaps in bigger intervalls (often bumpy for my taste) or without having a slur or portamento between the notes. I worked with berlin strings 4 years pretty much everyday. That said: I wouldn´t have worked with them if I find them not good. The new spicc are reaching louder timbre dynamics and compensate a bit the old spicc which were softer or just maximum forte, they lacked of bite and stroke. I used both depending on what I need. Berlin has a lot of love and you can hear that.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Nov 26, 2018)

mikeh-375 said:


> Simon, any idea how much RAM the Main library soaks up if you load in the full range of artics?


Main + All expansion packs (and ALL articulations) purged is about 22 gig.


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## muk (Nov 26, 2018)

Interesting perspective @richhickey Thanks for chiming in. More thinking to do.


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## J-M (Nov 26, 2018)

Mike Fox said:


> Ha! That makes two of us.



Three.


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## muk (Nov 29, 2018)

With one more day to go I decided against buying it. There's too many question marks. With no way to test it and resale not being allowed I am not spending that money with OT after my First Chairs experience. I'm all the more excited for LASS 3, and hopefully Sonokinetic and Project Sam releases.


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## Casiquire (Nov 29, 2018)

muk said:


> With one more day to go I decided against buying it. There's too many question marks. With no way to test it and resale not being allowed I am not spending that money with OT after my First Chairs experience. I'm all the more excited for LASS 3, and hopefully Sonokinetic and Project Sam releases.



I commend your restraint


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## muk (Nov 29, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> I commend your restraint



Ha! Thanks. It's been a hard-learned lesson


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## Mike Fox (Nov 29, 2018)

muk said:


> With one more day to go I decided against buying it. There's too many question marks. With no way to test it and resale not being allowed I am not spending that money with OT after my First Chairs experience. I'm all the more excited for LASS 3, and hopefully Sonokinetic and Project Sam releases.


I think both Lass 3 and PSAM's upcoming libraries are gonna kill it!


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## zimm83 (Nov 29, 2018)

Mike Fox said:


> I think both Lass 3 and PSAM's upcoming libraries are gonna kill it!


If you want to wait many months......ok....


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## ed buller (Nov 29, 2018)

There is a lot about Berlin Strings that you just won't find in other Libraries. Especially the Expansions. There are some timing issues on the shorts that can drive you crazy , but i'd recommend this Library any day

best

ed


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## Ihnoc (Nov 29, 2018)

I also chose not to go for it. To me, a lot of the ground Berlin Strings has was covered for me by Cinematic Studio Strings. However, since they last did an expansions sale, the Special Bows (Expansions A and B) are high on my list to extend CSS.


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## Mike Fox (Nov 29, 2018)

zimm83 said:


> If you want to wait many months......ok....


For ProjectSAM? Totally worth it!


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## muk (Nov 30, 2018)

The point is that I have enough string libraries to be in a position I can wait. My bases are covered pretty well, so I can be discerning in what I buy. I try to only buy libraries that really change my workflow and/or the sound for the better considerably. With Berlin Strings it would have added a different sound. But I have that style covered with Light & Sound, even if it doesn't do everything. LASS 3 might be a library to considerably change the workflow. And anything Project Sam and Sonokinetic especially is likely to have a sound signature I really enjoy. So I'll wait.


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