# Monitors... again...



## noiseboyuk (Aug 31, 2010)

I'm thinking of getting some new monitors in the coming months. I've been using some ancient JPWs which aren't great.

Main criteria are that it's a small room, speakers will be nearfield, but - this is absolutely crucial - they've got to both be true and go loooow. I don't want something stray at 40hz catching me out! Material will be everything from dance to orchestral. Also budget is predictably limited.

So all suggestions gratefully received. Do you think I'm best off using a separate sub? I've never 100% got on with them, but my experience has been very limited.


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## Stephen Baysted (Aug 31, 2010)

How much exactly do you want to spend Guy? 

If it's around the 1k mark, you could do a lot worse than a pair of these:

http://www.dv247.com/studio-equipment/a ... ker--48078

I've been really delighted with mine - very fast transient response, no porting, very open sound and good bass extension. 

Cheers

Stephen


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## Danny_Owen (Aug 31, 2010)

for a touch more money some nice Adam A8x's http://www.dv247.com/studio-equipment/a ... tor--72930

My Adam A7's have served me well, but they did really need a sub. These, I would imagine, would not so much.

If you want to go even cheaper I've heard people get on with Yamaha HS-80s pretty well, and certainly they have the bass response.


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## noiseboyuk (Aug 31, 2010)

Thanks guys - both possibly a bit physically big? But that's the problem with getting a decent bass response I guess... hence wondering about subs. Ideally around £500 too, but that's a pretty vague number.

I'll take a look at the Yamaha's (same physical size I see). I remember back in the day the NS10s were known for being over bright, but looks like the 80s are different?


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## stevenson-again (Aug 31, 2010)

i have a pair of HS80s:

http://www.absolutemusic.co.uk/store/in ... 4wodwkBKYA

which are spot on. they are so cheap because i think yahama want them to be another standard like the NS-10s were.

i had a rock producer in my studio not so long ago and he was blown away by them and ended up getting a pair himself. personally i don't care if they are 'hi-end' or not - i just want honesty and clarity. like you i want to know what's 'going on' down there. they were recommended to me by another mixer/composer who does a lot of orchestral (film music) and pop. he had heard a pair and was amazed.

i promise you i have no interest in telling the difference between these and any other you beauts monitors. but these definitely do the job.


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## muk (Aug 31, 2010)

Have a look at the Blue Sky eXo2 or the Media Desk. They get very favorable reviews generally. They're small and they go low since they are designed as 2.1 from the beginning. The concept and philosophy behind is explained to some detail on their website: www.abluesky.com
Just ordered a pair of eXo2s myself. If you have some time I can give you a short review when they arrived


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## noiseboyuk (Aug 31, 2010)

Thanks again folks - sounds great to me Rohan, and would love your review muk when you get the eXo2s!


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## muk (Aug 31, 2010)

Oh, one more thing: the eXos are cheap. Should be around 350£ including the sub. The Media Desks are somewhat bigger and cost around 550£
Here's the sound on sound review: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan05/articles/bluesky.htm


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## Tanuj Tiku (Aug 31, 2010)

I think Dynaudio BM 6A's may be your best choice here. They are extremely good as near field monitors and I have tested them in various studios. 

The clarity and depth is amazing and the response is quite accurate and warm. 

They are not like Mackies which just blast out and lack depth. In its class, I would say its hard to beat the BM 6A's.


You wont regret this purchase for sure. Low end is really good too - but you have to be in a reasonably treated room - otherwise no monitor is going to sound right.

Without minimal acoustic treatment - even the best of the monitors will sound bad. I think you must must must must allocate part of your budget for acoustic treatment if you dont already have some.

In fact, you will feel a lot of change just by adding acoustic treatment even without buying any monitors.


Best,

Tanuj.


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## Stephan Lindsjo (Aug 31, 2010)

Genelec makes small monitors with good bass for the size.


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## noiseboyuk (Aug 31, 2010)

Thanks again everyone. I've used Genelecs a lot wearing my TV sound hat - they are fantastic and as you say quite incredible for the size. However, I think I'd still need a sub with the ones I've used, anyway for the very low end - I see they do one for that very purpose.

One other make that comes up a lot is KRK and their Rokit range - anyone use them?


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## rayinstirling (Aug 31, 2010)

I'm another one who wouldn't sell my Bluesky Media Desk system

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan05/a ... luesky.htm

not ever.


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 16, 2010)

Still umming and ahhing on these various recommendations, plus the Rockit, Adams... think I need to do some listening. Any UK folks know of a London / SE good demo place?


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## Brobdingnagian (Sep 16, 2010)

In the UK?

Why not Questeds - made in Devon.

I've been using the VS2108's here since 2004 - has it been THAT long?!

Fabulous. Solid....pricey.

My 2p.

B


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## Stephen Baysted (Sep 17, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Thu Sep 16 said:


> Still umming and ahhing on these various recommendations, plus the Rockit, Adams... think I need to do some listening. Any UK folks know of a London / SE good demo place?



KVR audio.


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## wst3 (Sep 17, 2010)

Sadly I tend to think in terms of product lines more so than specific products. To that end, Bluesky and Adams are probably my favorites, really never heard anything from either company that wasn't musical, accurate, and non-fatiguing.

But I'll throw out one specific model - an old one to be sure, but if you can find a pair of the Hafler TRM-8s I think you'll be quite happy. They behave really well in smaller rooms, they go quite low, I think they are musical, and pretty darned accurate, and they never left me feeling like my ears were pummeled. The best part, to me, was their chameleon like nature - they work well with nearly any style of music. Rock and Roll Power Trio? Check! Small string ensemble? Check! Sound design? Check, with the caveat that if you are doing a lot of boom and rumble you'll still need a sub. I see them from time to time on eBay, which is a shame, since you can't go to the store and listen to them, or better yet borrow them. But I think they are still worth a listen.

To provide a slight frame of reference, I find that most Genelec monitors tire me out, and most of the others seem voiced for a specific genre or two, e.g. a friend of mine uses the Mackies for mixing prog-rock-ish stuff and it sound great on them. Another friend has a pair of the largest M-Audio monitors, he does a lot of smaller acoustic ensembles (guitar, banjo, mando, vocals) and they work really well for him. In both cases, the mixes translate well to the rest of the world.

I've used the Haflers mostly for acoustic ensembles as well, and they have always been honest with me. I have tried them with some all electronic pieces and been quite happy as well. Still have not tried them on a project that used a lot of sampled instrument... really need to do that, but my instinct is that they would tell me where all the warts are, without burning me out.


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## edhamilton (Sep 17, 2010)

http://barefootsound.com/barefoot/mm35.html

+/- 1.5db 37hz to 20khz.

Natural and unflattering.

I have the larger model. It was a big check but was my best purchase of the last decade.


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## Udo (Sep 18, 2010)

rayinstirling @ Wed Sep 01 said:


> I'm another one who wouldn't sell my Bluesky Media Desk system
> 
> http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan05/a ... luesky.htm
> not ever.


What's the difference, in practice, between the original and MKII Bluesky Media Desk system?


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## Stephen Baysted (Sep 18, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Fri Sep 17 said:


> Rousseau - KVR? That's a physical place?!
> 
> Current thought is to do DV247 in Romford, plus a nice-sounding chap from BlueSky said I can make an appointment to listen at their offices in Burgess Hill, as nowhere else seems to have them to demo. Shame I can't do them all side by side, but this is way better than nothing.
> 
> Really appreciate everyone's input, thanks.





Ah yes, that should have been KMR. :oops: I was in a hurry when I typed it.

https://www.kmraudio.com/ 

Ask them to send you a few pairs on loan and audition them in your room; almost pointless hearing them in a shop.


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 18, 2010)

Rousseau @ Sat Sep 18 said:


> Ah yes, that should have been KMR. :oops: I was in a hurry when I typed it.
> 
> https://www.kmraudio.com/
> 
> Ask them to send you a few pairs on loan and audition them in your room; almost pointless hearing them in a shop.



Gotya, thanks.


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 22, 2010)

OK, back from round one at DV247, which is nearer to me than KMR so won on points. The guys there were very helpful, but their system seemed a bit disorganised!

Wasn't thrilled by the KRKs - boomy but no depth. Ended listening mainly to Adam A7s, A7Xs and HS80s. Imaging on both the Adams sounded great, and actually preferred the tone overall of the A7xs - seemed a little sweeter somehow, as well as having more depth. Not as much depth as the Yamaha's mind... but depth was the HS80's strongest suit. A/Bing the Yamahas and Adams, the Adams were instantly less fatiguing-sounding... really great mids and highs by comparison, actually. BUT... even the A7xs didn't have enough depth for me (Paula Cole's Tiger is the ultimate test for low end for me...)

So three strikes out so far, although an a7 with sub is an option (though really too expensive to be honest). Round two is Monday - the nice chaps at Blue Sky are going to demo their systems then. Shame I won't be A/Bing with anything else, but certainly better than nothing.

Incidentally, I'm sure that the Adams and Yamahas are WAY better than what I have now. Comparing my (inevitable) How To Train Your Dragon cue with a recent one of my own was a horrifically humbling experience... I guess this is why I need better monitors!


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## Stephen Baysted (Sep 23, 2010)

Guy, 

I'd be very careful with this process; the lack of depth/low end comments you're making worry me. What type of room were you listening to these monitors in? Was it treated? Did you move around to see whether you were in a node or antinode - did the bass response change when you did that? 

Cheers

Stephen


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## twinsinmind (Sep 23, 2010)

I use Quested vh2108 passives and i still love the sound. very powerfull accurate sound


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 23, 2010)

Rousseau @ Thu Sep 23 said:


> Guy,
> 
> I'd be very careful with this process; the lack of depth/low end comments you're making worry me. What type of room were you listening to these monitors in? Was it treated? Did you move around to see whether you were in a node or antinode - did the bass response change when you did that?
> 
> ...



I did a fair bit of moving about. Btw, I'm only really talking about 30-60hz kinda area - super low.


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 27, 2010)

Arrgh! Unable to make a decision...

I listened to the Blue Sky eXos2 and Media Desk 2's today. First off - the exos2's in particular are a staggering achievement... the speakers are tiny, the sub is tiny, and I've never heard a speaker so small go so low. Proper low, way lower than anything I heard last week - which is what I need.

However, overall I wasn't 100% convinced by either. There was a slight boxiness to the mids in the exos, and the Media Desk 2s seemed very harsh indeed on the upper-mids / highs. One of my demo tracks was Drumming Song by Florence and the Machine. That girl has a harsh voice to be sure, but I couldn't listen to it for long at all on the Media Desks - it was borderline painful (is this unflattering accuracy though?!). Also, with both I felt that although the bass was extremely low, I felt the upper bass freqs missed out somewhere along the line. Another track I tested was the incredibly demanding Tiger by Paula Cole, which can rip cones from their magnets. The ultra low was awesome, but when the bass player starts going up the fretboard a tad, it all tended to get a bit confused.

So. I'm stuck. I like the Adams best, but they need a sub, which is too much cash right now. Perhaps I should keep my eye open for a good 2nd hand pair? Or alternatively just wait til I can spend the big bucks...

EDIT - I'm having a wild notion of going completely the other way. Rather than spend a fair amount on something I'm not that happy with, I'm wondering about getting a real budget set for a year or so til I can get something REALLY decent, perhaps actually the Adam A8Xs. I'm thinking, for example, about the Alesis Monitor 1 mk2 passives which seem to be well-liked, cost a good meal and are, I'm sure, at least better than what I have.... anyone any experience there?


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## synergy543 (Sep 27, 2010)

As Vibrato suggested, did you audition the Dynaudio BM6a? Or BM 5's? I'm curious to hear what you think of these and the price is right.

Also, you could consider putting your money into the main speakers and using a consumer sub for the time being and upgrading later. Since the sub just addresses frequencies under 80Hz, the choice of the sub is a bit less critical (just get one that doesn't "ring") as long as you balance the levels carefully.


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 27, 2010)

The BM6's are well over £1k, but it looks like I could have auditioned the BM5's though - the Dv247 guy incorrectly told me that all the dynaudios were way more expensive than the Adam's, which isn't true as they're about the same as the A7Xs.

Have to say I'm still liking my cheap-as-chips idea though - reading all the reviews I can find of the Monitor One's and I can barely find a bad word about them. Of course they won't be as good as the Adams, but it looks like (including a sub) I'll need to spend well over £1k to get something really good. And if I'm gonna do it, I should really do it. So these would - in theory - just tide me over... they are literally a tenth of the price - then I can flog them when I upgrade anyway...


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## Stephen Baysted (Sep 27, 2010)

Guy, 

What's your room like? What acoustic treatment have you got? and how would you go about setting up a sub where you are? Those are the crucial questions really. 

FWIW you're welcome to come and listen to the AE22s at my studio if it helps. I have had BM6s in the past and they are quite good, but IMHO nowhere near as good as the AE22s.

Cheers

Stephen


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## stonzthro (Sep 27, 2010)

That's a pretty fair route to take - get by on something passable until you can purchase a system that will last for several years (or more).


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## ChrisAxia (Sep 28, 2010)

Hey Guy,

Like many others here, I really like my Adam P11A, but I know they are out of your price range. I'm a real convert to the ribbon-tweeter sound. A friend of mine on a budget recently bought Behringer Truth B3031A http://www.dv247.com/studio-equipment/b ... ors--61718 which also have ribbon tweeters.

Now, I haven't heard them, but this friend of mine is very happy with them and at under £300 seem like amazing value considering they have an 8 3/4 inch bass unit so should more than handle your bass requirements. Maybe worth auditioning?

~C


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 28, 2010)

The B word! I absolutely refuse to be snobby - if it works, it works! Just reading about them, again lots of happy campers - one Adam A7 owner who said that they were a near-perfect replacement.

Looking at the specs, there is also the B3030A which power-wise would be fine for me I'm sure, and the freq-response is supposed to be the same. Might have to audition both of these and the Alesis. Thanks for the tip-off, Chris!


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## ChrisAxia (Sep 28, 2010)

No problem. Let us know what you think!

~C


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## Justus (Oct 22, 2010)

Thanks! Very helpful thread!


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## PasiP (Nov 8, 2010)

Today I had a chance to A/B listen Gelenec 8030 and Adam A7X speakers. I started with 8030's and then switched to A7X's and damn A7X's sounded better to my ear. I switched back to 8030's and they sounded like they had a bag over them.

I'm seriously considering of buying Adam A7X or A8X in the near future. I need to take a second listening session soon.


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## adg21 (Dec 7, 2010)

Dynaudio BM 6a's, or if you can afford K&H 0300's.

I'm currently using VS2108's and they're lovely to work with, now rereleased as V2108's

I don't think much of any of the genelecs, or any of the cheaper Adams.


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## seclusion (Dec 11, 2010)

I upgraded from my old Event 20/20 Bas monitors I bought sooo long ago to Adam Ax7's.
I was worried about the the AX7's not having bottom end...
No worries, they sound fantastic in my room.
Hearing a lot more mids and high end in my mixes.
The only thing I know I do too much is bottom end.
I add too much bottom end so I can feel the ooummpp!
Comercial tunes do not sound like my mixes.
I may rent the Sub 8 to see if I hear that low end movement on commercial stuff too.
But a big =o on my purchase, no problems with my AX7's, some say they've had issues, I have not!
No more solder smell from my monitors!

Later


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## spikescott (Dec 11, 2010)

I haven't tried the Adams, tho I know a lot of folks rave about them. 

Of course the room plays a huuuuuge factor in what we percieve. If your putting too much bottom end in your mixes, it's either the room colouring or actually the Adam's are not as deep as you think they are. 

When I first started all I could afford was some Yamaha NS10's. They are still in use today as reference for domestic speakers in many studios (the theory being if you can get a mix to sound good on the NS10's, then the mix will sound good on _anything_). But my early mixes all sounded too bassy - I was compensating for the lack of bass in the monitors. 

Just a thought.


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## gsilbers (Dec 11, 2010)

edhamilton @ Fri Sep 17 said:


> http://barefootsound.com/barefoot/mm35.html
> 
> +/- 1.5db 37hz to 20khz.
> 
> ...



how is the bass on those?

it has two 7" subwoofer and all in one small space. 

these have been getting great reviews.. just very pricey


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## tripit (Dec 12, 2010)

I'm listening to monitors right now - just spent some time shooting out the K+H o300, Focal Twin and the ADAM S3XH. I'll be listening to the mm35 as well. 

So far I'm leaning toward the Focal or o300. The Adams sound exciting when you put them on, but the highs and high mids are forward in a way that I think I will find irritating after a while. 

The Focals are mid forward as well, but not as much as the ADAM. I could work on these no problem - I find them a little more exciting than the o300. Off axis is decent. 

The o300 are not mid forward, very flat and revealing. They are probably the least exciting speaker of the bunch, but they would be great for mixing - particularly for score. The only downside is that they seem to be a little under powered and the off axis is not as good as the others. This is a concern because I often get 3 or 4 people coming in to listen to final scores. Getting a sound that covers the room well is important. 

I have high hopes for the mm35. From what I've heard, I think they should be very impressive - but you never know.


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## adg21 (Dec 28, 2010)

Speakers are a very personal thing so get whatever works for you. for what it's worth I was speaker shopping a while back and demoed the focal twins along side the K&H 0300 and thought the 0300 were the best speakers I'd ever heard. They just blew me away with how crisp and revealing they were.


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## Lunatique (Jan 1, 2011)

I have had the K+H O 300D's as my reference monitors for a few years now, and there are some important issues to know beforehand.

1) They do sound amazing--BUT, you need to be sure you have an ideal acoustic space. I'll get into this later.

2) If you're one of those people who like to blast your monitors as if they are PA speakers at a rock concert, then these are not for you, as they have built-in limiters that prevent them from playing ridiculously loud. 

3) It's best to place them inside the rear wall or against the rear wall--this is the advice coming from K+H's own engineers (via my email correspondence with them when I consulted them about my new studio construction). In fact, this applies to most speakers (if they're not rear-ported) because of comb filtering cancellation of reflection from the rear wall. Once you have them against the rear wall, adjust the rear EQ settings as instructed in the manual for that position. 

Now, to make thing a bit more complicated--the acoustic space. I used to think that doing extensive acoustic treatment is enough--it isn't. A large majority of typical household rooms are not ideal acoustic spaces, and extensive acoustic treatment can improve them, but that alone is not enough. There are things the acoustic treatment cannot fix and would require additional help. 

I found the additional help in the form of IK Multimedia's ARC System. I researched similar products such as the ones from JBL, KRK...etc, and went with ARC because it's more sophisticated in its algorithm and it isn't tied to a piece of hardware that requires you go through additional A/D and D/A conversion (which not only introduces lag, but possible sound quality degradation--neither of which are probably noticeable, but I didn't want to take the chance). 

So, here's general conclusion for me--before using ARC and relying only on proper monitor placement, optimal listening position, and extensive acoustic treatment, the O 300D's still had issues such as a severe null at 60Hz, a somewhat fatiguing upper mids, and boomy sub-bass around 45Hz. The stereo imaging is also off-kilter, with the left and right channels playing different frequency responses due to the layout of the room as well as furniture/equipment placement. I was starting to think that maybe my ears just aren't used to what "neutral" is supposed to sound like, and I've spent my life being so used to skewed sounding audio reproduction. Thank God I was wrong because that would be pretty depressing.

After getting the ARC and doing extensive measuring and then also additional EQ'ing to pick up any slack that the ARC could not fully take care of, my O 300D's now sound like a totally different pair of monitors. They are now incredibly smooth, detailed, balanced, neutral, but also dynamic and punchy on material that is mixed that way. I think that's one of the telling signs that an audio device is neutral--that it acts like a chameleon and does not impart its own sound to everything it plays. On material that's supposes to be subdued and smooth, that's how it sounds--no extra coloration anywhere. On material that's supposed to be punchy and dynamic, that's how it sounds. While I used to think that's what I was getting before I used the ARC system with additional EQ, I was wrong. Now when I deactivate my ARC/EQ chain and listen to the O 300D's naked, the differences are sobering. With the chain engaged, all the anomalies like edginess, harshness, fatigue, muddiness, boominess...etc are totally gone. The beautiful side-effect beyond simply hearing what's truly there, is that now I can monitor for many hours without ever getting listening fatigue. Also, now the O 300D's can be used for simply leisurely listening, and they sound like heaven to me. The ARC System is the best few hundred dollars I have ever spent ever, on audio gear.

If any of you are considering getting the ARC System, I highly recommend that you do additional EQ'ing as needed (using a measuring mic at the listening spot and run a pink wave while observing through a reliable spectrum analyzer), because the ARC might not take care of all of your acoustic problems. Also remember, I'm using ARC in a room that's already extensively treated acoustically. If you have a space that doesn't have some decent bass traps or first reflection diffusion/absorption, then you might want to do that first. You might have nulls in your room (60Hz is a common null) and ARC + additional EQ can help restore some of that null, you want to be careful not to push too hard, since just because you are hearing a null doesn't mean the speaker isn't actually outputting that frequency, and if you push too hard to compensate for the null, you'll be making your speakers play that frequency really, really loud in reality (even if the room mode nulls it by the time it gets to your ears). 

One more thing--although linear phase EQ's are the best for not introducing unwanted phase shifts and coloring, they also tend to be a lot more limited in their tweaking ability, since they don't allow really narrow bands. If you're trying to really flatten out your room's response with additional EQ'ing on top of the ARC, you might have to use conventional parametric EQ since often you're dealing with narrow bands. My motto is always that if I can't hear any problematic anomalies, then I'll tweak away and get exactly what I want. My additional EQ'ing on top of the ARC can be pretty dramatic in some areas--especially in the lower frequencies, where traditionally speaking, is the most problematic for EQ's and would require a linear phase EQ. But when I do A/B comparisons, I'm not getting unwanted phase shifts, and I can't even detect it with a spectrum analyzer using a measuring mic, so keep that in mind and don't fret too much about it.


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