# Confessions of a Hans Zimmer intern... Samplecast #46 exposes everything (well almost)



## reutunes

Hey Controllers... I've been in the hospital this week but through all the blood and drama I've managed to put together a packed Samplecast show for your viewing pleasure - albeit a bit late - sorry. 

We've managed to twist the arm of composer Sid De La Cruz who has worked with Trevor Morris & Hans Zimmer. He dishes the dirt in his http://thesamplecast.com/the-samplecast-podcast-vol-2-episode-46/ (podcast interview). There's also a review of Ivory II Studio Grands. PLUS the usual news, updates, bargains and freebies.



Featured this week:

Thrill – Native Instruments / Galaxy Instruments
Easy Spoons – Loops De La Creme
http://bit.ly/2rtbSQu (Virtual Tube Collection – Slate Digital)
SYNDR 1 – Millertone
Wavesfactory Bundle – Audio Plugin Deals
50% off Updates & Crossgrades – Native Instruments
COMPOSER INTERVIEW: Sid De La Cruz
Church Organ – Nils Neumann
Ivory II Studio Grands – Synthogy
MAD RocknFunk – Handheld Sound
http://bit.ly/1AKrXzq (Dream Rythms 2 – Dream Audio Tools)
http://bit.ly/2rpsXZJ (Dark Matter 2 – String Audio)


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## Phillip

Yesterday I've heard the theme for "Inception". Very monotonous (actually boring) melody and chord progression. Not really interested in his intern confessions.


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## reutunes

Phillip said:


> Yesterday I've heard the theme for "Inception". Very monotonous (actually boring) melody and chord progression. Not really interested in his intern confessions.


It's not my favourite theme of his, but does the job within the context of the movie.

Luckily the most recent Samplecast also features a slew of news, updates, features, bargains and an excellent church organ freebie... in case you want to have a stab at playing Han's monotonous music yourself


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## jononotbono

Ahh brilliant can't wait to listen to the interview. Funny how different people are because I don't find HZ's music to be monotonous in the slightest. Thanks.


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## patrick76

Phillip said:


> Yesterday I've heard the theme for "Inception". Very monotonous (actually boring) melody and chord progression. Not really interested in his intern confessions.


Today I read a comment about a lack of interest in Hans Zimmer's interns that wasn't very interesting, so I decided to reply with an uninteresting comment of my own.


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## sluggo

Hey...everyone, just as a matter of mental process, when you post or say anything about a composer's work being 'boring' or 'motonous' etc, I think it should include the following disclaimer, feel free to cut and paste:

"While the composer is responsible for creating the music, he/she is at the direction of at least 1 or more creative influences that may very well be near tone-deaf in terms of their musical sense and appreciation."

Any time you blame the composer, please include the director's name so we can watch their other films, perhaps scored by other composers and maybe notice the same common thread. 

And I'm not saying this coming to you from a preachy, holier-than-thou place. I myself have said less than appreciative things about certain scores, but I've now come to blame the director as much or more so than the composer. 

I've also come to appreciate certain director's even more.


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## Parsifal666

Let people think what they think, it doesn't effect my appreciation in the slightest. Both Man of Steel and Dark Knight Rises were huge for me, the former is my favorite album of this century, really.

I thought Inception was an excellent, terrific-sounding soundtrack. It fit the movie...no, it made the movie significantly better imo. I realize it's impossible to truly know that, but I feel that way about Dark Knight, Tears Of the Sun, Lion King, and Interstellar as well as the above. He's not John or Jerry...who is? And he's first to be humble about the (obvious) influence.

I think Hans rocks!


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## NoamL

Your mileage may vary here but...

When I saw _*Inception*_ for the first time I was eager to get home to my piano and work out _what the hell is that cool chord progression?!?!?_

I am a very "harmonically oriented" composer, for example when I first began studying John Williams scores the first thing I picked up on was how he likes the I bVI I progression (CM AbM CM).

Anytime someone comes up with a chord progression that's *novel* and actually works, to me it's like a mathematician reading a journal where someone discovered a new proof. 

I have noticed that the very first part of the Inception chord progression (Cm BM) has become very popular, it's been used in loads of movies, videogames and production music.

If your ear is more towards melody than harmony then I can understand why that score might not be as interesting to you.


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## NoamL

Another score that had the same effect for me was _*V for Vendetta* _by Dario Marianelli, where he has those 4 rising chords that represent Evey's growing awareness and liberation.


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## Dave Connor

I've never listened to the Inception score by itself but seen the film a number of times. Never found myself bored and there's a ton of very exciting music in it, beautifully wedded to picture. So whatever the music happens to do on it's own, it seems to me the composer scored the film very insightfully with some things I certainly never heard before - in any score.


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## Parsifal666

Looking back, I actually did like the music behind both Inception and Interstellar more than the movies themselves, and do think they would have been just very good as opposed to excellent movies without the music. But that's just me.


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## Valérie_D

NoamL said:


> Anytime someone comes up with a chord progression that's *novel* and actually works, to me it's like a mathematician reading a journal where someone discovered a new proof.
> 
> If your ear is more towards melody than harmony then I can understand why that score might not be as interesting to you.



Maybe everyone listens differently based on their internal sensibility and what they are looking for in a piece of music, like the new proof in a math journal you were reffering too and I think that it's completely valid, this is your personal point of view and the way you feel about music. 

When I was at the University of Montreal, you were literally shunned if you used a predictable progression or something that seemed accessible to the general non-musician. They called out pop music, ''candy music'' and the implication was that you would spend the rest of your life writing ''serious music'' (read ''stuck up and boring music; I'm fine with ''contemporary music'' but ''serious''... seriously?!) and you were a great composer as long as you did not appear to tug at people's heart and emotions. You would be a great composer stucked in an ivory tower forever. They would trash film music a lot like James Horner for being too simple in scores like Titanic, etc. Hummable music was prohibited.

Fortunately for me, I was a complete LOTR nerd during university and Howard Shore's score was beauty in its purest form for me. I heard Hans say more than one time in interviews that yes, some musicians or critics will look down on film music and no, it's not his problem because he writes for Doris, the single mom of 2 awful young adults who spends her hard earned money on a saturday night to watch a movie and he goes often for simple melodies or progressions while focussing on instruments, mix, performance etc, I think it's a valid way of working too, it's more my style as well, my music is quite emotional and to the point.

The piece ''Time'' had an impact on me at the end of the film. It transported me but to this day, I don't listen to it too often because it depresses me but I think it's a very beautiful and effective way to end that film.

My humble opinion


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## mac

Hans can wring more emotion out of two chords than I can with 88 keys.


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## Fab

ha, most activity samplecast thread ever.


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## Guffy

Phillip said:


> Yesterday I've heard the theme for "Inception". Very monotonous (actually boring) melody and chord progression. Not really interested in his intern confessions.


What, you first heard it yesterday? That's impressive.
Something that has influenced trailers and movies ever since should be mandatory listening imo.


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## R. Soul

Fab said:


> ha, most activity samplecast thread ever.


Yeah, but unfortunately the thread has hardly anything to do with Samplecast.


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## gsilbers

I have no idea whats going on with this thread. title is one thing, video is different, each response seems to be about something different. maybe im high and dont know it! 
I wanted to mention my expericnes at RCP but unsure if this is the correct thread. 
but cool review though!


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## Phillip

Wow, what spectrum of reactions. Wonderful stoning, thank you guys.


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## Daniel James

Loaded title there Reuben. Heh no doubt it got the conversation you were probably expecting started.

I would say though that it feels slightly uncouth to have someone on to 'expose' the secrets/process of another composer. Feeling like its becoming a bit of a trend, from my very brief experience they are all amazing and super talented people over there, and reaching for 'confessions' feels a bit clickbaity.

Also maybe just me but I don't understand the thought process of someone who wants to revel in the fact they worked with composer x y or z rather than try (even if they fail) to define their own thing in life.

Cheers for doing the podcasts though mate, just please don't go all DailyMail on us.

-DJ


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## dgburns

Daniel James said:


> Loaded title there Reuben. Heh no doubt it got the conversation you were probably expecting going.
> 
> I would say though that it feels slightly uncouth to have someone on to 'expose' the secrets/process of another composer. Feeling like its becoming a bit of a trend, from my very brief experience they are all amazing and super talented people over there, and reaching for 'confessions' feels a bit clickbaity.
> 
> Also maybe just me but I don't understand the thought process of someone who wants to revel in the fact they worked with composer x y or z rather than try (even if they fail) to define their own thing in life.
> 
> Cheers for doing the podcasts though mate, just please don't go all DailyMail on us.
> 
> -DJ



Thanks DJ for responding as I should have. @Phillip deleted my post. Two wrongs don't make a right.


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## Dave Connor

Phillip said:


> Wow, what spectrum of reactions. Wonderful stoning, thank you guys.


Some of us responded to your comment with specificity without throwing stones at all. I stated my impression of the score (to picture) same as you did so hardly a cheap shot in following suit.


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## jononotbono

Daniel James said:


> just please don't go all DailyMail on us.



Perfect. Haha!


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## desert

_Prediction: Someone's gonna get banned in this thread_


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## mverta

sluggo said:


> Hey...everyone, just as a matter of mental process, when you post or say anything about a composer's work being 'boring' or 'motonous' etc, I think it should include the following disclaimer, feel free to cut and paste:
> 
> "While the composer is responsible for creating the music, he/she is at the direction of at least 1 or more creative influences that may very well be near tone-deaf in terms of their musical sense and appreciation."



No. Fucking. Way. The fact that this creative hierarchy is always present never absolves us of the responsibility for agreeing to produce work under those circumstances and being held accountable for what we produce. You want the single title card with your name on it 12 feet across at the top of the film? Well then get used to the fact that it doesn't come with disclaimers. You don't get an asterisk* "I didn't have final say." Nobody gives you this out. So we'd better choose what we do carefully, and do a job we don't try to qualify later, 'cause there ain't no qualifiers. That's our name, that's our work, period, as far as the world is concerned. If we don't want the responsibility, don't take the gig, or don't take the credit. Can't have it both ways.


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## Daniel James

mverta said:


> No. Fucking. Way. The fact that this creative hierarchy is always present never absolves us of the responsibility for agreeing to produce work under those circumstances and being held accountable for what we produce. You want the single title card with your name on it 12 feet across at the top of the film? Well then get used to the fact that it doesn't come with disclaimers. You don't get an asterisk* "I didn't have final say." Nobody gives you this out. So we'd better choose what we do carefully, and do a job we don't try to qualify later, 'cause there ain't no qualifiers. That's our name, that's our work, period, as far as the world is concerned. If we don't want the responsibility, don't take the gig, or don't take the credit. Can't have it both ways.



Or... one could use their porn name?

-DP


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## The Darris

Daniel James said:


> Or... one could use their porn name?
> 
> -DJ


I use Rusty Shackleford. Thanks Dale.


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## mverta

Yes. 

Sincerely, 

James Raleigh


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## AlexRuger

mverta said:


> No. Fucking. Way. The fact that this creative hierarchy is always present never absolves us of the responsibility for agreeing to produce work under those circumstances and being held accountable for what we produce. You want the single title card with your name on it 12 feet across at the top of the film? Well then get used to the fact that it doesn't come with disclaimers. You don't get an asterisk* "I didn't have final say." Nobody gives you this out. So we'd better choose what we do carefully, and do a job we don't try to qualify later, 'cause there ain't no qualifiers. That's our name, that's our work, period, as far as the world is concerned. If we don't want the responsibility, don't take the gig, or don't take the credit. Can't have it both ways.



Spot on.


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## Dave Connor

Not to mention that the person speaking in Hans' ear is Christopher Nolan. That's two, bold, experimental filmmakers who obviously get on very well creatively. I would be surprised if one ever had a suggestion for the other that was tolerated and considered wholly inferior by either party but remained in the film. (i.e. surely Hans signed off on every note of the score.)

Also consider the level of experimentation these two have pulled off while making wildly successful commercial films. That's a daring riskier than artistic daring - in $Hollywood. Which comes round to the point that HZ writing something that one might perceive as 'boring' was no doubt in clear service to an artistic vision. Someone who refuses to play it safe is rarely boring in my experience.


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## Parsifal666

Daniel James said:


> Or... one could use their porn name?
> 
> -DP



George had the right idea: BUCK NAKED!


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## NoamL

many composers actually do have ASCAP aliases.


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## jamwerks

reutunes said:


> We've managed to twist the arm of composer Sid De La Cruz who has worked with Trevor Morris & Hans Zimmer. He dishes the dirt in his http://thesamplecast.com/the-samplecast-podcast-vol-2-episode-46/ (podcast interview).


What's with the "dishes the dirt"? There's no dirt. Trying to make people think there is? That's not very respectful of Sid, Hans or Trevor.


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## Phillip

Dgburns, I did not delete your post nor reported to moderator. It was not offensive. It probably got deleted by moderator. In response to your deleted post - If you are interested, please pm me your email and I will send you some of my music. All the best, Phillip


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## zvenx

Ironically, I suspect because of its simplicity, Inception's theme is one of my favourite HZ themes.
Its the one I could most easily hum without thinking of it.
rsp


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## Ashermusic

Too many people judge scores based on buying them and listening. It is obviously ideal when a score works really well with the picture AND is a satisfying listening experience, but sometimes you achieve the former as the expense of the latter, and the former is ALWAYS more important. That is the gig.


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## Dave Connor

Btw, If someone (anyone) finds a piece of music unappealing (boring etc.) that's hardly uncommon. Debussy didn't like listening to Beethoven. I don't ever have a problem with that and why should anyone? It may be baffling to you or me but not a reason to put someone down.

Jay Asher said what I was trying to say much better, which is that film music when divorced from the picture is missing a huge part of the artistic whole. So it is posssible that a film cue that is "boring" on it's own is actually brilliant writing (why I said that I was never bored watching the film.)

Sure there's such a thing as crappy music and I imagine we have all written our fair share. It was correct however to point out that the music criticized was not in it's context.


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## alexballmusic

Daniel James said:


> Or... one could use their porn name?
> 
> -DP



A lot of 50s composers used a pseudonym for their TV and film music and their real name for concert works.

E.g. Ivor Novello winning composer Ernest Tomlinson was Alan Perry when he did TV work.

Alan would be a terrible porn name though.


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## Smikes77

alexballmusic said:


> A lot of 50s composers used a pseudonym for their TV and film music and their real name for concert works.
> 
> 
> E.g. Ivor Novello winning composer Ernest Tomlinson was Alan Perry when he did TV work.
> 
> Alan would be a terrible porn name though.



Oh, I don't know. Put a strong adjective before or after might work well. 

Just Alan, I think he'd struggle to get work.


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## Smikes77

desert said:


> _Prediction: Someone's gonna get banned in this thread_



Bet it's either @mverta or @Daniel James 

They have a 'side' to them. Just saying


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## Bunford

All this says to me is that you are in it for the wrong reasons. To be in the game simply to be attached to 'names', and to then move on in your career and do exposés to live off the name and fame of someone else is quite sad really, in my opinion. Shows a lack of gratitude for the opportunities they had, a lack of respect for the person that gave them opportunities in exposing their methods and a lack of self worth and belief in their own abilities and skills. If someone wants to share their own methods, like Hans' Masterclass or Junkie XL's YouTube series, then leave it up to them. They worked for it. Hard. And they deserve to be ones to choose whether their methods get exposed and shared or not. Just sayin'...


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## patrick76

gsilbers said:


> I have no idea whats going on with this thread. title is one thing, video is different, each response seems to be about something different. maybe im high and dont know it!
> I wanted to mention my expericnes at RCP but unsure if this is the correct thread.
> but cool review though!


If this is not the correct thread, I hope you can share in a different one. I would love to hear about your experiences.


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## afterlight82

Don't know who this "intern" is but they clearly don't know shit (they say HGW is still in a building right next to Remote. Um...no. About a decade and a bit out of date). Clueless.


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## afterlight82

Also, interesting use of "with" as in "worked with HZ". I've seen this on dozens of resumes of people who've assisted or interned, as if they want to pretend they were a collaborator with the hiring composer. It's pretty rare that - and even when that is the case, the ones that go far have the tact and respect to not overblow their involvement and even to underplay it, it's kind of a code of honor thing.


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## sluggo

mverta said:


> No. Fucking. Way. The fact that this creative hierarchy is always present never absolves us of the responsibility for agreeing to produce work under those circumstances and being held accountable for what we produce. You want the single title card with your name on it 12 feet across at the top of the film? Well then get used to the fact that it doesn't come with disclaimers. You don't get an asterisk* "I didn't have final say." Nobody gives you this out. So we'd better choose what we do carefully, and do a job we don't try to qualify later, 'cause there ain't no qualifiers. That's our name, that's our work, period, as far as the world is concerned. If we don't want the responsibility, don't take the gig, or don't take the credit. Can't have it both ways.



I can't even understand how you got so upset at my remark. Poor direction is a real thing. Watch enough movies closely and you'll see the difference between a crappy actor and a crappy director. Major films get 'notes' from studio executives including marketing people who will comment on music. You wrote an amazing choir arrangement for the big scene and during the session the studio boss walked in and says "this scene doesn't need choir". And that's it, done. No more choir. Are you going to challenge him and tell him about your integrity and responsibility? 
Your attitude is not wrong, but could be tempered. I appreciate the ownership of responsibility but the process of music creation, especially on major films, is not up to just the composer. Navigating all the creative input becomes almost as big a skill as the composition and production itself. And before you write "No. Fucking. Way." kindly govern yourself. It will be good practice for when the marketing guy says your theme is too complex.


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## brett

@mverta I hear what you're saying and in many ways agree. However I reckon you've presented things a little forcefully whereas there are many shades of grey on certain jobs

No, you can't absolve yourself of responsibility for what you've written, but there can be occasions where you are asked to write a cue that doesn't accord with your instincts and considerable experience as a composer. What we are doing is not art, and we should never forget that. We are in service to someone else's vision. Hopefully it's a collaborative experience but this is not always the case and our suggestions are not always heeded (nor should they always be as they are not always correct!). However, I've certainly been asked to write music in a way that, in my opinion, doesn't serve the scene as well as it could. I make my case but if I lose the argument I'm hardly going to down tools or get indignant. We suck it up and get on with it. But I'm hardly going to be proud of a cue if I strongly believe (especially with the benefit of hindsight) that the scene could have worked more effectively with a different approach. But it's not our film, and what we deliver is strongly shaped by the director/producer/editor/execs etc. We just try to deliver to the best of our abilities regardless of (or in spite of!) the brief. Sometimes we get it wrong, but then again sometimes so does the director.


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## asherpope

A lot of ruffled feathers here...I just assumed the whole 'Confessions' thing was intentionally cheesy, but each to their own.


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## mverta

sluggo said:


> I can't even understand how you got so upset at my remark


Like Hannibal Lecter, my pulse never got above 85.



sluggo said:


> Poor direction is a real thing. No more choir. Are you going to challenge him and tell him about your integrity and responsibility? It will be good practice for when the marketing guy says your theme is too complex.



No we're work for hire and we make compromises, and we're held accountable for it. That's what I said, and it's true. No matter how it comes down, if we get the big screen credit, we take the responsibility for what's up there, for better or worse.



brett said:


> @mvertaI make my case but if I lose the argument I'm hardly going to down tools or get indignant. We suck it up and get on with it. But I'm hardly going to be proud of a cue if I strongly believe (especially with the benefit of hindsight) that the scene could have worked more effectively with a different approach. But it's not our film, and what we deliver is strongly shaped by the director/producer/editor/execs etc. We just try to deliver to the best of our abilities regardless of (or in spite of!) the brief. Sometimes we get it wrong, but then again sometimes so does the director.



Yes, we all do this... nobody's even remotely arguing this. And when we make the inevitable compromises, we get held accountable for the product and nobody is forgiving. We don't get to go around to every theater with a bullhorn and explain how we were, "only work for hire and the director wanted more kazoo, so..." We just get clipped, instead: "Hey what was this idiot thinking with all that kazoo. I don't like his music." And that's how it goes. This isn't really news, nor a big deal; it's just the business. But what we can't do is try to have it both ways - to take the gig and all that comes with it, and try to distance ourselves from taking the hit at the same time. In fact, that smacks suspiciously of "everybody gets a medal/nobody loses" to me, and it's no more true now than it ever was. If and when we take the gig with the stupid director and the primary instrument he wants is cabbage farts, we don't get to explain to audiences at every screening how we had no choice. We have to own it; every last bit of it. Or we don't take the gig. And this is true for every collaborative thing where we're not the final say. I just finished a thing which was jointly Disney, and James Cameron/Lightstorm. Believe me, what I delivered is only tangentially related to what I originally submitted. But it's got my name on it like it was my call. It wasn't. That's how it goes. Was a good gig, though!


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## Tatu

mverta said:


> I just finished a thing which was jointly Disney, and James Cameron/Lightstorm. Believe me, what I delivered is only tangentially related to what I originally submitted. But it's got my name on it like it was my call. It wasn't. That's how it goes. Was a good gig, though!


Nothing to ad to the conversation at hand, but this sounds nice! Good for you, Mike!


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## brett

@mverta we are entirely on the same page then


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## Rohann

brett said:


> @mverta *What we are doing is not art*, *and we should never forget that*. We are in service to someone else's vision.


Yuck, that left a foul taste in my mouth.

I see your points and while certainly true, at least from observation/speculation, I think a good deal of film, game and TV music _is _art, though I suspect that term can grow awfully narrow in the Hollywood blockbuster or reality-TV realm. Most certainly not all of it, but I sure wouldn't be interested in composing gigs in the slightest if art weren't some part of the equation. Art _can _be collaborative.


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## AlexanderSchiborr

I don´t know if that has to do with the Topic here, but yesterday I had some beers and watched some shows (sports events, reality, entertainment shows, cooking shows..the list goes on) on television. I force to disconnect myself from work especially when I try to relax, but still I often notice and pay attention what music is used to spice up the picture. And that is not new to anyone I guess, but I noticed like that there is almost 80% - 90% of music used which contains the following instruments:

- Taikos, Bassdrum
- Choirs
- Low Brass
- Strings
- electronic elements are optional

And regardless what happens in the storyline, it doesn´t matter, it is always those epic banging Tracks. I know that has nothing to do with the topic, I guess? Just wondering sometimes who is responsible for the choice of the music... Apart from my personal taste, one thing I can say: There is too much music used so the music just looses its effect to support a scene, even worse: It becomes a parody.

I remember last year I had a gig scoring a soundtrack for a client and most of time I was not asked, no: I was pretty much told "to copy their given temptracks". I thought to myself: I can´t copy the temptracks, not to step into legal problems. So what I did is to make _impressions _of the temps. I got my paycheck and moved on to the next project.
I could have asked myself at that point: Why they do that? Didn´t they want an Alexander Style Composer or didn´t they just trust in my own expertise as a composer? Often it is not that important what craft you have, but very often a short deadline, and the fear of the producers to try something new or different determines what you are going to do while involved in such projects. Projects often needed to be done in a short amount of time, they cost a shitload of money, so often there is no time to fiddle around, this is a pure luxury.
I remember reading some article where film composers in the past spending just weeks on finding a melody for their maintheme. But this is I assume a relic of the old times and a pure luxury and does´nt work for most of the composers out there. So you can ask yourself: Why do they hire me and not somebody else who did wrote all of those temptracks? You know you could asked a tons of those questions, but in the end, it is not only the music for what you get hired for, or imo it is very less the music but more the way how easy a client can work with you and if you are willing to transform *their *ideas into music. Yeah, their ideas, not mine so much.


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## Parsifal666

Rohann said:


> I think a good deal of film, game and TV music _is _art.



All respect, but then you're a kinder man than I. Or you have a significantly different idea of what art is (and no, I don't believe it's all subjective, as there are things called educated deductions).

Art to me is that which can stimulate, challenge, and/or resound within a number of people in a deep, consistent, enduring way and from manifold perspectives. Beethoven's 9th, a significant chunk of John William's work, the Beatles, the Sistine...

But again, no offense meant in the slightest toward you or your opinion. I just don't see a good deal of that music being art, it's most often utilitarian.


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## nordicguy

Parsifal666 said:


> Art to me is that which can stimulate, challenge, and/or resound within a number of people in a deep, consistent, enduring way and from manifold perspectives. Beethoven's 9th, a significant chunk of John William's work, the Beatles, the Sistine...


To me, art doesn't bother with all those specifications.
Just can happen everywhere.


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## AdamKmusic

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> I don´t know if that has to do with the Topic here, but yesterday I had some beers and watched some shows (sports events, reality, entertainment shows, cooking shows..the list goes on) on television. I force to disconnect myself from work especially when I try to relax, but still I often notice and pay attention what music is used to spice up the picture. And that is not new to anyone I guess, but I noticed like that there is almost 80% - 90% of music used which contains the following instruments:
> 
> - Taikos, Bassdrum
> - Choirs
> - Low Brass
> - Strings
> - electronic elements are optional
> 
> And regardless what happens in the storyline, it doesn´t matter, it is always those epic banging Tracks. I know that has nothing to do with the topic, I guess? Just wondering sometimes who is responsible for the choice of the music... Apart from my personal taste, one thing I can say: There is too much music used so the music just looses its effect to support a scene, even worse: It becomes a parody.
> 
> I remember last year I had a gig scoring a soundtrack for a client and most of time I was not asked, no: I was pretty much told "to copy their given temptracks". I thought to myself: I can´t copy the temptracks, not to step into legal problems. So what I did is to make _impressions _of the temps. I got my paycheck and moved on to the next project.
> I could have asked myself at that point: Why they do that? Didn´t they want an Alexander Style Composer or didn´t they just trust in my own expertise as a composer? Often it is not that important what craft you have, but very often a short deadline, and the fear of the producers to try something new or different determines what you are going to do while involved in such projects. Projects often needed to be done in a short amount of time, they cost a shitload of mones, so often there is no time to fiddle around, this is a pure luxury.
> *I remember reading some article where film composers in the past spending just weeks on finding a melody for their maintheme. But this is I assume a relic of the old times and a pure luxury and does´nt work for most of the composers out there. *So you can ask yourself: Why do they hire me and not somebody else who did wrote all of those temptracks? You know you could asked a tons of those questions, but in the end, it is not only the music for what you get hired for, or imo it is very less the music but more the way how easy a client can work with you and if you are willing to transform *their *ideas into music. Yeah, their ideas, not mine so much.



Hans actually talks about this in his masterlcass series, they only had time because of the films would be edited. Obviously nowadays everyone has computers so you can have a new edit within a few hours compared to a few days/weeks. I guess if you're lucky to get on a project during pre-production then you have time to develop your ideas. But I imagine the majority of us on here only get involved during post production.


----------



## PaulBrimstone

As a recovering journalist who spent too many years in the media trenches, I can report that art vs craft is a problem shared across many different disciplines, not just for composers. A professional journalist is expected at the drop of a hat to be able to write or edit for, say, the downmarket London Sun one day, and the upmarket New York Times the next: in each case, completely different in tone and style, but nonetheless required by the employer. “Art” comprises very little of the task, which instead requires craft and skill — and good luck to any hack trying to inject multi-syllable words into the tabloid redtops. If a journo wants to be arty, he/she is expected to head back to the garret to churn out a novel or short story, which may or may not see the light of day. I know it is similar for visual artists banging out advertising illustration to make a buck: good luck with your next solo show. Of course, there will always be true stars in the creative ranks who manage to inject new levels of art into mainstream music — others have rightly mentioned Williams, Zimmer et al — but the sad reality for the rest of us is that the market demands us to be journeymen. Many, myself included, aren't capable of much more than that, although that doesn't mean we can't try!


----------



## ryanstrong

Listened to the podcast, what exactly was "exposed" here? Or was the title just being funny?


----------



## Parsifal666

nordicguy said:


> To me, art doesn't bother with all those specifications.
> Just can happen everywhere.



That's a good, safely vague answer. I only related my own definition, yours is of course perfectly fine.

I've found art (for instance) in some of the music of Cannibal Corpse, to show my partial agreement. Most would completely scoff at that...I doubt the true artist would


----------



## Parsifal666

Well, if we want to talk art vs. commercialism look at Mozart or Richard Strauss (more specifically, look at their life/correspondence). Each were extremely interested in money, and one could go so far as to argue Mozart was essentially a hack (never much of a ground breaker, he wrote well within in the templates others used before him, mostly because of the Emperial political climate he lived in).

Yet, Mozart is one of the most outlandishly tuneful and freakishly brilliant/artistic composers who ever lived, and Strauss (though less tuneful overall) can be seen similarly.


----------



## Parsifal666

Actually, looking over this thread...I feel like I wasted my time, and I'm sure I'm not alone on this. No disrespect to the OP, but it was a loser topic to begin with, with a lame video.

So, I will once again respectfully bow out and wish all here a wonderful week!


----------



## rottoy

Wow, all of this gunfire because of an unfortunate, clickbaity headline.
The podcast interview was innocent, Reuben's video fine.

Eat a Snickers?


----------



## Parsifal666

rottoy said:


> Wow, all of this gunfire because of an unfortunate, clickbaity headline.
> The podcast interview was innocent, Reuben's video fine.
> 
> Eat a Snickers?



Make it a Milky Way and I'll skulk elsewhere indefinitely, good man!


----------



## dcoscina

I listened to the podcast. Nothing indicting about it. More of an observation from this person as to how the operation works, and it wasn't really any earth shattering news. Not sure why it was promoted as "dishing the dirt" when there was no dirt- and I highly doubt anyone working at RCP would "dish" any dirt out, especially if they wanted to maintain good connections in LA.


----------



## jimmy3189

Just Reuben trying to get you guys with a clickbaity headline, that is all. I'm actually quite comforted that most of the people in this space took offence to a Sun 3am/Daily Fail style headline an you all kicked off. The actual content is nice enough and mundane.

Nobody will be offended about the content, perhaps the delivery, but as a marketing tactic it got everybody listening!


----------



## Rohann

Parsifal666 said:


> All respect, but then you're a kinder man than I. Or you have a significantly different idea of what art is (and no, I don't believe it's all subjective, as there are things called educated deductions).
> 
> Art to me is that which can stimulate, challenge, and/or resound within a number of people in a deep, consistent, enduring way and from manifold perspectives. Beethoven's 9th, a significant chunk of John William's work, the Beatles, the Sistine...
> 
> But again, no offense meant in the slightest toward you or your opinion. I just don't see a good deal of that music being art, it's most often utilitarian.


Ah, the quintessential Liberal Studies debate!

I suppose I would use that as a working definition of "high art". I agree that the criteria of "good" art is definitely objective, but I think of general art (not high art) more as a pure and skilled form of expression (within reason...). Apply any adjectives to "art" and objective criteria arise, but as to the word "art" itself I've encountered as many PhD's agreeing as disagreeing with its subjectivity.
_That said_, I think I agree with you. Many scores aren't independent artistic works on their own, and _certainly_ not the "producer/director/studio is terrified of straying from the formula", poor-attempt-to-plagiarize-Hans-Zimmer scores. But many scores _do _work as a larger part of something I would consider art, or close to it.

I think more than anything I would hope that there's room for what I would consider a form of "artistic expression", to be judged afterwards by the listener. There seems to be more hope in the video game industry in that regard -- whether or not considered art, there are a good many more experimental, eclectic and interesting scores than one might think, or would likely find in TV. That's good enough for me. There are many amazing scores and pictures I wouldn't consider universal or "high" art, but they're meaningful enough to me to be judged as such, at least on a personal level (i.e. scores and their films: Logan, The Last Samurai, The Revenant, etc; in the game world, Limbo, Bioshock, Amon Tobin's score for Chaos Theory, etc).
But the idea of "copy our temp music" is a repulsive one in my mind, at least for a film or show that warrants attempt at originality. I certainly hope the majority of the game industry isn't like this too.

How's that for a verbose response? And I appreciate your politeness, but no need to be concerned about offense  I've found you courteous and respectful (as I do most of the forum), and I'm happy to be disagreed with.



Parsifal666 said:


> I've found art (for instance) in some of the music of Cannibal Corpse, to show my partial agreement. Most would completely scoff at that...I doubt the true artist would


I haven't really found it in Cannibal Corpse...but Opeth? Most definitely. As with Gorguts, Wintersun, Beyond Creation (on occasion), among others.


----------



## Rohann

jimmy3189 said:


> Just Reuben trying to get you guys with a clickbaity headline, that is all. I'm actually quite comforted that most of the people in this space took offence to a Sun 3am/Daily Fail style headline an you all kicked off. The actual content is nice enough and mundane.
> 
> Nobody will be offended about the content, perhaps the delivery, but as a marketing tactic it got everybody listening!


The problem is that marketing tactics like this tend to leave a sour taste in people's mouths, and will make them wary of future headlines. I actively avoid Dailymail-esque marketing...



AlexanderSchiborr said:


> I don´t know if that has to do with the Topic here, but yesterday I had some beers and watched some shows (sports events, reality, entertainment shows, cooking shows..the list goes on) on television. I force to disconnect myself from work especially when I try to relax, but still I often notice and pay attention what music is used to spice up the picture. And that is not new to anyone I guess, but I noticed like that there is almost 80% - 90% of music used which contains the following instruments:
> 
> - Taikos, Bassdrum
> - Choirs
> - Low Brass
> - Strings
> - electronic elements are optional
> 
> And regardless what happens in the storyline, it doesn´t matter, it is always those epic banging Tracks. I know that has nothing to do with the topic, I guess? Just wondering sometimes who is responsible for the choice of the music... Apart from my personal taste, one thing I can say: There is too much music used so the music just looses its effect to support a scene, even worse: It becomes a parody.


I hate this trend. It ironically loses any emotional pull that form of music had. It's precisely become that -- parody.



> I remember last year I had a gig scoring a soundtrack for a client and most of time I was not asked, no: I was pretty much told "to copy their given temptracks".


I find this incredibly disappointing. I hope this isn't the case for all mediums composition is a big part of.


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## jononotbono

jimmy3189 said:


> but as a marketing tactic it got everybody listening!



But will I listen to the next one now? They better include a free plugin that's so good it writes my music for me so I can play Golf otherwise I'll kick off.


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## Leon Willett

jononotbono said:


> But will I listen to the next one now? They better include a free plugin that's so good it writes my music for me so I can play Golf otherwise I'll kick off.



for what it's worth, I certainly unsubscribed from their email list due to this last episode being so click baity


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## jamwerks

jimmy3189 said:


> Nobody will be offended about the content, perhaps the delivery, but as a marketing tactic it got everybody listening!


Agreed, but that works just once. Don't think I'll listen to future videos...


----------



## AdamAlake

NoamL said:


> Your mileage may vary here but...
> 
> When I saw _*Inception*_ for the first time I was eager to get home to my piano and work out _what the hell is that cool chord progression?!?!?_
> 
> I am a very "harmonically oriented" composer, for example when I first began studying John Williams scores the first thing I picked up on was how he likes the I bVI I progression (CM AbM CM).
> 
> Anytime someone comes up with a chord progression that's *novel* and actually works, to me it's like a mathematician reading a journal where someone discovered a new proof.
> 
> I have noticed that the very first part of the Inception chord progression (Cm BM) has become very popular, it's been used in loads of movies, videogames and production music.
> 
> If your ear is more towards melody than harmony then I can understand why that score might not be as interesting to you.



Every chord progression "works".


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## Rohann

AdamAlake said:


> Every chord progression "works".


Not reeeeally .


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## Dave Connor

I doubt Hans Zimmer ever imposes a music preference on a score (_I think I'll put some cool chords together on this one_ or _I'll do lots of melodic things on this one. _It seems to me he considers the story being told on the screen and things occur to him. His gifts are such that if he forms a motive or statement with a chord sequence, it's going to be an interesting one both musically alone and psychologically to picture. Same with his melodic writing that he keeps off the beaten path quite well while exploiting his fresh harmonic choices. He's a bit of a miracle worker that way.


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## Rohann

Dave Connor said:


> I doubt Hans Zimmer ever imposes a music preference on a score (_I think I'll put some cool chords together on this one_ or _I'll do lots of melodic things on this one. _It seems to me he considers the story being told on the screen and things occur to him. His gifts are such that if he forms a motive or statement with a chord sequence, it's going to be an interesting one both musically alone and psychologically to picture. Same with his melodic writing that he keeps off the beaten path quite well while exploiting his fresh harmonic choices. He's a bit of a miracle worker that way.


I think it's a key thing that distinguishes him from his imitators. A lot of "big Hollywood" scores imitate a lot of the elements of his scores but without the variation, melodic ideas and character. Some of his great themes and "sounds" are very simple, but unique and appropriately placed.


----------



## Dave Connor

Rohann said:


> I think it's a key thing that distinguishes him from his imitators. A lot of "big Hollywood" scores imitate a lot of the elements of his scores but without the variation, melodic ideas and character.


And without the insight to picture, which has always separated the men from the boys. That's an intangible gift which you find in theatre composers and isn't something that can be taught in a formulaic way. Not easily anyway.


Rohann said:


> Some of his great themes and "sounds" are very simple, but unique and appropriately placed.


It seems he always starts from the story/visual so you get large or small or whatever he thinks will enhance it. I listened to the Inception score with no picture and I didn't find anything boring at all. Just his usual thoughtful writing.

I did happen to hear an HZ clone Main Title yesterday from a 2014 film from a composer I have always liked. It did have a very interesting opening texture with spicatto eighth notes and simple harmonic scheme. But my goodness it fell flat and died before the cue ended. The score from there just got worse. I went to Rotten Tomatoes to see how the (franchise) film was received and sure enough the first review I read put the knock on the 'cliched' score.


----------



## Rohann

Dave Connor said:


> And without the insight to picture, which has always separated the men from the boys. That's an intangible gift which you find in theatre composers and isn't something that can be taught in a formulaic way. Not easily anyway.
> It seems he always starts from the story/visual so you get large or small or whatever he thinks will enhance it. I listened to the Inception score with no picture and I didn't find anything boring at all. Just his usual thoughtful writing.


I've listened to the score from The Last Samurai over and over since I was...15 or something. Fantastic work accompanying the film, but also on its own.



> I did happen to hear an HZ clone Main Title yesterday from a 2014 film from a composer I have always liked. It did have a very interesting opening texture with spicatto eighth notes and simple harmonic scheme. But my goodness it fell flat and died before the cue ended. The score from there just got worse. I went to Rotten Tomatoes to see how the (franchise) film was received and sure enough the first review I read put the knock on the 'cliched' score.


It's a horridly annoying trend that I know some very notable composers feel very frustrated by, and have been sucked into. The problem is that imitators (again often not the fault of the composer) often get the production nearly on (rarely even that, HZ's scores sound uniquely _colossal_ in a way I haven't heard before) but without the heart and substance. My psychology education still leaves me frustrated at the predictability of human nature, particularly when it comes to money: "We can't take _any_ risks on this movie because what if it doesn't make money?", despite the fact that _no notable film_ was ever the result of carbon-copying trends, at least as far as I can tell.


----------



## Dave Connor

It's a shame to be sure. I don't understand wanting a watered-down score derived from Composer X either. The film's aren't interchangeable (or shouldn't be) so why would the score be? 

A film I worked on relatively recently had so much meddling from so many quarters that both the director and composer were neutered on what they had agreed upon. It was a brilliant hybrid score with fantastic grooves and custom synth sounds everywhere. The orchestral sections were very well done and interesting as well. A fight developed between producer and director with the producer (with final cut) saying he wanted a Desplat-style score. Everyone including the composer was let go with the final score ending up a very poor version of the original score. Not remotely Desplat. Go figure.


----------



## Rohann

Dave Connor said:


> It's a shame to be sure. I don't understand wanting a watered-down score derived from Composer X either. The film's aren't interchangeable (or shouldn't be) so why would the score be?
> 
> A film I worked on relatively recently had so much meddling from so many quarters that both the director and composer were neutered on what they had agreed upon. It was a brilliant hybrid score with fantastic grooves and custom synth sounds everywhere. The orchestral sections were very well done and interesting as well. A fight developed between producer and director with the producer (with final cut) saying he wanted a Desplat-style score. Everyone including the composer was let go with the final score being ending up a very poor version of the original score. Not remotely Desplat. Go figure.


I'm utterly baffled at this. I really don't understand that sort of mindset.

It reminds me of corporate bosses who are convinced that threatening their employees and using scare tactics are most effective at motivating them, despite _overwhelming _evidence coming from people far smarter than them that it's ineffective.


----------



## Dave Connor

Everyone in proximity to the film thinks they know better it seems. It is indeed a _corporate_ process with approval needed from a number of folks. That means the composer can get stuck in 5 different rewrites based on 5 different opinions (that is hardly an exaggeration.) So you can have a composer with artistic aims subject to a sensibility that is more akin to knitting a sweater. What happens in this sort of grind is exactly what you would expect: people are worn down. In the end you could have satisfied 4 of the 5 people and then the 5th pulls the plug.


----------



## Rohann

Dave Connor said:


> Everyone in proximity to the film thinks they know better it seems. It is indeed a _corporate_ process with approval needed from a number of folks. That means the composer can get stuck in 5 different rewrites based on 5 different opinions (that is hardly an exaggeration.) So you can have a composer with artistic aims subject to a sensibility that is more akin to knitting a sweater. What happens in this sort of grind is exactly what you would expect: people are worn down. In the end you could have satisfied 4 of the 5 people and then the 5th pulls the plug.


That sounds utterly horrid. I have no idea why people put up with it or why the industry (what an awful word) commonly persists in such a ludicrously inefficient manner. To see noteworthy and capable composers like Danny Elfman and Patrick Doyle talk about directors who trust their choice of temp music more than the composer they're paying to score the film is utterly bizarre. Why not save money and use library music, or buy the rights to existing music? Why bother with music at all? I really hope the game industry isn't as bad all over, from the sounds of it it's liberating in comparison, depending where one works.


----------



## Dave Connor

That's a story of one film at one studio. That will change depending upon the director, composer, studio-head of music and producer(s). In any case it's true that since the advent of the mockup, the process has changed with far more people able to hear the score and approve the latest cues or not. With people at the top of the profession such as certain director/composer combinations, I'm sure they won't tolerate numerous voices chiming in on their process and even have the boundaries clear in their contract. In the above story, I know for a fact that there was a handful of people weighing in even though the composer and director were perfectly happy with the score.


----------



## ctsai89

Rohann said:


> That sounds utterly horrid. I have no idea why people put up with it or why the industry (what an awful word) commonly persists in such a ludicrously inefficient manner. To see noteworthy and capable composers like Danny Elfman and Patrick Doyle talk about directors who trust their choice of temp music more than the composer they're paying to score the film is utterly bizarre. Why not save money and use library music, or buy the rights to existing music? Why bother with music at all? I really hope the game industry isn't as bad all over, from the sounds of it it's liberating in comparison, depending where one works.



I know for a fact that most composers who went to college to get at least a bachelor degree in "music composition" don't wish to put up with it. Only about 25% or much less of these people eventually went the film score route with money and fame in their mind but most importantly the ones that succeeded have a passion for analyzing films in general. And some of these people have tried to become film score and knew it was a horrid experience and tried to warn the composers who didn't know this fact. Over time, you hear so many bad experiences that you eventually just wanted to embrace your own artwork, forget trying to become a film scorer one day. Also this was kind of back in the day before 2010 where sample libraries weren't thriving yet, you probably had to write the score, get it recorded by real players to sound good enough, fit it to film, try to get approved by your director and then find out he/she isn't satisfied with it, then redo. Nowadays it's much easier to re-write because of the technology we have on our fingertips.


----------



## Rohann

Dave Connor said:


> That's a story of one film at one studio. That will change depending upon the director, composer, studio-head of music and producer(s). In any case it's true that since the advent of the mockup, the process has changed with far more people able to hear the score and approve the latest cues or not. With the people at the top of the profession such as certain director/composer combinations, I'm sure they won't tolerate numerous voices chiming in on their process and even have the boundaries clear in their contract. In the above story, I know for a fact that there was a handful of people weighing in even though the composer and director were perfectly happy with the score.


True. But the fact that it seems to be a trend at all is incredibly disappointing. Considering the originality of many films hitting theaters I suppose artistry isn't really at the forefront, but it's pretty disappointing to see such a beautiful and meticulous craft reduced to multiple opinions of those uneducated/inexperienced.
I have no doubt Christopher Nolan trusts Hans quite well (didn't he write the Interstellar theme without knowing anything about it?), as does Burton trust Elfman, but the fact that top composers still complain about it is telling.

I'm sure this is familiar to most:




ctsai89 said:


> I know for a fact that most composers who went to college to get at least a bachelor degree in "music composition" don't wish to put up with it. Only about 25% or much less of these people eventually went the film score route with money and fame in their mind but most importantly the ones that succeeded have a passion for analyzing films in general. And some of these people have tried to become film score and knew it was a horrid experience and tried to warn the composers who didn't know this fact. Over time, you hear so many bad experiences that you eventually just wanted to embrace your own artwork, forget trying to become a film scorer one day. Also this was kind of back in the day before 2010 where sample libraries weren't thriving yet, you probably had to write the score, get it recorded by real players to sound good enough, fit it to film, try to get approved by your director and then find out he/she isn't satisfied with it, then redo. Nowadays it's much easier to re-write because of the technology we have on our fingertips.


I suppose I have to wonder -- is it possible, or even realistic, to get into film and TV composing because one genuinely loves unique film scores, or music in general? I'm not talking about people who "made it", but the average Joe. I wonder what the ratio really is between "I had the opportunity to work really creatively" and mundane, copy-the-temp-music gigs. Maybe it depends on the reputation one has garnered -- there are some composers who don't seem _terribly_ active in Hollywood but don't have a generic or mediocre score to their name.

Personally, I don't care about making big bucks; I'm in this because I've always loved music, unique scores, and want the opportunity to creatively collaborate on something and affect people the way I've been affected. Hopefully this is something I'll be able to fulfill one way or another, even if it means having only a handful of scores to my name in the end.

I also wonder if the video game industry is more or less liberated in this respect than I think it is. I remember Garry Schyman talking about switching back to videogames after doing film for a while because it was filled with opportunities for making far more varied, interesting and creatively unusual music than film and TV, for the most part.


----------



## Parsifal666

Rohann said:


> Personally, I don't care about making big bucks; I'm in this because I've always loved music, unique scores, and want the opportunity to creatively collaborate on something and affect people the way I've been affected. Hopefully this is something I'll be able to fulfill one way or another, even if it means having only a handful of scores to my name in the end.



Sounds to me as though your head is on straight, I wish you great success and happiness.


----------



## Rohann

Parsifal666 said:


> Sounds to me as though your head is on straight, I wish you great success and happiness.


Thanks, I appreciate that! Certainly not something I hear very often when I tell "normal" people about what I'm pursuing . If I was really interested in making big bucks I would have stayed on the road to med school.


----------



## ctsai89

Rohann said:


> True. But the fact that it seems to be a trend at all is incredibly disappointing. Considering the originality of many films hitting theaters I suppose artistry isn't really at the forefront, but it's pretty disappointing to see such a beautiful and meticulous craft reduced to multiple opinions of those uneducated/inexperienced.
> I have no doubt Christopher Nolan trusts Hans quite well (didn't he write the Interstellar theme without knowing anything about it?), as does Burton trust Elfman, but the fact that top composers still complain about it is telling.
> 
> I'm sure this is familiar to most:
> 
> 
> 
> I suppose I have to wonder -- is it possible, or even realistic, to get into film and TV composing because one genuinely loves unique film scores, or music in general? I'm not talking about people who "made it", but the average Joe. I wonder what the ratio really is between "I had the opportunity to work really creatively" and mundane, copy-the-temp-music gigs. Maybe it depends on the reputation one has garnered -- there are some composers who don't seem _terribly_ active in Hollywood but don't have a generic or mediocre score to their name.
> 
> Personally, I don't care about making big bucks; I'm in this because I've always loved music, unique scores, and want the opportunity to creatively collaborate on something and affect people the way I've been affected. Hopefully this is something I'll be able to fulfill one way or another, even if it means having only a handful of scores to my name in the end.
> 
> I also wonder if the video game industry is more or less liberated in this respect than I think it is. I remember Garry Schyman talking about switching back to videogames after doing film for a while because it was filled with opportunities for making far more varied, interesting and creatively unusual music than film and TV, for the most part.




I'm all in for your success as well. I don't think there's much we as composers can do about any of these things going on. Temp scores to me are kind of like gifts because I would then not have to worry about not knowing where to start or risking too high of a chance to compose something no directors are looking for. At least that's the positive and practical way I'd like to look at it.

Over time, I've developed a great appreciation in the art of audio engineering and electronic music and basically I think I could appreciate most film scores nowadays because of how clean and well mastered they sound in theaters. And that's not easy to do. As for the composition aspect of the film score, not so much, especially they all sound alike (as we all know). But even some or most of the great composers work with temps, rarely are there ever any scores that didn't come out of the temps or deliberately specific milisecond to millisecond frequency of director's directions. There's too much risk in giving a composer the freedom in a director's perspective. I really respect the composers who can mix/master music on their own to a marketable level.

Most of us who dream big ought to expect less in the industry. If anything, you can always compose scores that you love that supposedly can work for films on your free time. You can always also fit images/paintings into your music in a youtube video to tell the story you're trying to tell through your music! Just a good way to get it out of your system while slaving it all for the director (believe me that's the easiest way to work up and get promoted in the game)

for video games it will definitely depend on which kind. MMORPGs have different songs/tracks in different map/regions where the song/tracks are usually 2~3 min long and loops over and over. I believe there's much more freedom in that than a film where music has to fit into all the actions _effectively. _And to work them effectively, no one could really disagree you can't go wrong with whatever has worked in other films, therefore that's why we have all the shows/movies with generic music.


----------



## Rohann

ctsai89 said:


> I'm all in for your success as well. I don't think there's much we as composers can do about any of these things going on. Temp scores to me are kind of like gifts because I would then not have to worry about not knowing where to start or risking too high of a chance to compose something no directors are looking for. At least that's the positive and practical way I'd like to look at it.
> 
> Over time, I've developed a great appreciation in the art of audio engineering and electronic music and basically I think I could appreciate most film scores nowadays because of how clean and well mastered they sound in theaters. And that's not easy to do. As for the composition aspect of the film score, not so much, especially they all sound alike (as we all know). But even some or most of the great composers work with temps, rarely are there ever any scores that didn't come out of the temps or deliberately specific milisecond to millisecond frequency of director's directions. There's too much risk in giving a composer the freedom in a director's perspective. I really respect the composers who can mix/master music on their own to a marketable level.
> 
> Most of us who dream big ought to expect less in the industry. If anything, you can always compose scores that you love that supposedly can work for films on your free time. You can always also fit images/paintings into your music in a youtube video to tell the story you're trying to tell through your music! Just a good way to get it out of your system while slaving it all for the director (believe me that's the easiest way to work up and get promoted in the game)
> 
> for video games it will definitely depend on which kind. MMORPGs have different songs/tracks in different map/regions where the song/tracks are usually 2~3 min long and loops over and over. I believe there's much more freedom in that than a film where music has to fit into all the actions _effectively. _And to work them effectively, no one could really disagree you can't go wrong with whatever has worked in other films, therefore that's why we have all the shows/movies with generic music.


Thank you!

You raise good points -- I don't think temp music is a terrible idea. However, putting temp music to your film and watching over and over again really does seem like a terrible idea. I'm still amazed at how little the psychological effect of this seems to be understood by studios/directors. After a while, it gets married with your film, and anything that sounds different feels like something other than your film. It's great to give a composer a general idea of where to head, but the problem is the over-dependence on it that leads to "just do this, don't try anything new". _Clearly _Danny Elfman knows how to write a fitting score to picture, so I think trusting one's obsession with chosen temp over the fresh perspective of an academy award nominated composer is certainly ill-conceived. Again, why bother hiring a prolific and creative composer if you're simply going to impose one's ideas on them?
The best film/music combinations are almost without exception collaborative creative endeavors. I think Logan is a brilliant example, because Marvel has had a slew of generic scores in recent time and it's the first Marvel movie I've seen in a while that not only sounds fresh, but takes a vastly different and brilliantly unapologetic approach to the franchise.

True re: video games. I just can't help but notice (like them or not) the brilliant scores found in a variety of games in recent time: Bloodborne with its epic-but-withered-and-terrifying score; the Bioshock series and its melodic themes combined with unconventional and unique aleatoric/atonal orchestral scoring; Limbo with its dreamy, womblike synths punctuated by terrifying industrial noise; Inside, where the composer actually recorded sounds fed through bones and had a sword-swallower swallow a mic in order to record music through his stomach; almost any of Jesper Kyd's storylike scores; Austin Wintory's staggeringly beautiful score for Journey, etc. Heck, even old scores like Chrono-Trigger's was brilliant, as was the insanity that was Diablo's music. And even the more "stereotypical" epic scores, like those found in Blizzard's games, are at least very well composed and not entirely derivative, still filled with melodic motifs and the like. The irony is that videogame music is scoffed at by many, while it often appears to contain a great deal more legitimate artistry than many aspects of the music industry as a whole.

I've hardly gamed since I was a teenager and I'm still enamoured by these pieces of music.


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## j_kranz

Rohann said:


> I think Logan is a brilliant example, because Marvel has had a slew of generic scores in recent time and it's the first Marvel movie I've seen in a while that not only sounds fresh, but takes a vastly different and brilliantly unapologetic approach to the franchise.



That's an interesting example, especially considering the first composer got fired from that film for doing his own thing!

I once tried explaining the 'temp love' dilemma to a director by comparing it to him editing his entire film with one lead actor, and then replacing that actor at the very end... of course anything else at that point would seem foreign compared to what you've been watching/listening to for the last several months, day in and day out... It still didn't help the cause much though


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## TheKRock

I've been following this thread and although I am not a part of it i just wanted to add my 2 cents...
I've just finished 2 film scores both with temp tracks. After going through the first film and putting together some demo ideas for the music supe, director, and producer to listen to they all came back with "maybe it could be more like...". Back and forth a few more times with changes etc and we finally stopped on pretty much recreating the temp track. Ok so I did, for the most part, but there were a few cues I did where I went off temp and did my own thing and they loved them and I loved them so suddenly it was like I got to be creative and do something better than copying the temp on those cues. I could live with that, after all the film makers have their vision as well. As I started the second of the 2 films (for the same prod co) I started with the temp and worked more of my ideas into the demo cues straying from the temp as much as I thought the production team could bear to hear...they loved them without changes and I strayed just a little more for the rest of the film. So I have another film coming from them in a few weeks and I plan to do the same again. Those cues I wrote that really stepped away from the temp make me feel like I've actually contributed creatively to film. When I got those ones back from mix/master I laughed out loud when I heard them cause they sounded so good! I wrote that!! F*** Ya! Anyway my point is that I think maybe we can change the collective outlook on film scoring by doing it one small cue at a time. It may take a while but its a pretty awesome thing to drop a cue on a director with an original off temp score and have them go "Wow! That really works well!"
Told you it could be way better!
Just my 2 cents, peace y'all!!


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## Arbee

TheKRock said:


> I've been following this thread and although I am not a part of it i just wanted to add my 2 cents...
> I've just finished 2 film scores both with temp tracks. After going through the first film and putting together some demo ideas for the music supe, director, and producer to listen to they all came back with "maybe it could be more like...". Back and forth a few more times with changes etc and we finally stopped on pretty much recreating the temp track. Ok so I did, for the most part, but there were a few cues I did where I went off temp and did my own thing and they loved them and I loved them so suddenly it was like I got to be creative and do something better than copying the temp on those cues. I could live with that, after all the film makers have their vision as well. As I started the second of the 2 films (for the same prod co) I started with the temp and worked more of my ideas into the demo cues straying from the temp as much as I thought the production team could bear to hear...they loved them without changes and I strayed just a little more for the rest of the film. So I have another film coming from them in a few weeks and I plan to do the same again. Those cues I wrote that really stepped away from the temp make me feel like I've actually contributed creatively to film. When I got those ones back from mix/master I laughed out loud when I heard them cause they sounded so good! I wrote that!! F*** Ya! Anyway my point is that I think maybe we can change the collective outlook on film scoring by doing it one small cue at a time. It may take a while but its a pretty awesome thing to drop a cue on a director with an original off temp score and have them go "Wow! That really works well!"
> Told you it could be way better!
> Just my 2 cents, peace y'all!!


I think you just beautifully described the process of building _trust_, the secret sauce in every successful relationship IMHO......


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## TheKRock

Word Arbee! I can only hope that through this process we can make productions remember just how valuable composers and novel scores are to the art and craft of film making and that we in turn begin to be compensated more in line to what we are worth. For what its worth, I have always been a champion for artists (especially musos and songwriters being one myself) and work my hardest to get top dollar for any artist I work with when placing tracks for source cues or just having other musicians record live tracks for me. It makes me feel a little better about things if musicians and other artists I know are getting paid what they are worth, especially when it adds so much to a film.


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## Rohann

j_kranz said:


> That's an interesting example, especially considering the first composer got fired from that film for doing his own thing!
> 
> I once tried explaining the 'temp love' dilemma to a director by comparing it to him editing his entire film with one lead actor, and then replacing that actor at the very end... of course anything else at that point would seem foreign compared to what you've been watching/listening to for the last several months, day in and day out... It still didn't help the cause much though


Indeed, awkward example...however, for _Marvel_, the score they ended up with was a pretty big leap from their normal, I-think-they-plagiarized-themselves norm. The example was more or less for how a franchise falling prey very much to the "copy what works" tropes tried something new and it worked wonderfully, ranking it one of the highest reviewed superhero movies of all time.



TheKRock said:


> I've been following this thread and although I am not a part of it i just wanted to add my 2 cents...


This thread was a bit of fluff to begin with, so turning it into a thought-provoking discussion is more than welcome.



> I've just finished 2 film scores both with temp tracks. After going through the first film and putting together some demo ideas for the music supe, director, and producer to listen to they all came back with "maybe it could be more like...". Back and forth a few more times with changes etc and we finally stopped on pretty much recreating the temp track. Ok so I did, for the most part, but there were a few cues I did where I went off temp and did my own thing and they loved them and I loved them so suddenly it was like I got to be creative and do something better than copying the temp on those cues. I could live with that, after all the film makers have their vision as well. As I started the second of the 2 films (for the same prod co) I started with the temp and worked more of my ideas into the demo cues straying from the temp as much as I thought the production team could bear to hear...they loved them without changes and I strayed just a little more for the rest of the film. So I have another film coming from them in a few weeks and I plan to do the same again. Those cues I wrote that really stepped away from the temp make me feel like I've actually contributed creatively to film. When I got those ones back from mix/master I laughed out loud when I heard them cause they sounded so good! I wrote that!! F*** Ya! Anyway my point is that I think maybe we can change the collective outlook on film scoring by doing it one small cue at a time. It may take a while but its a pretty awesome thing to drop a cue on a director with an original off temp score and have them go "Wow! That really works well!"
> Told you it could be way better!
> Just my 2 cents, peace y'all!!


Really glad to hear that! That sounds quite fulfilling.
Hopefully directors (and more importantly, production teams/studios! I.e. the disaster that was The Hobbit) will catch on, but unfortunately my view of the business aspect of the "creative" industry is far more pessimistic. I hope you're right and that I'm wrong!
Re: Trust. This seems so instrumental and is likely why great directors tend to be paired with great composers -- Nolan and Zimmer, Spielberg and Williams, Burton and Elfman, etc.


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## TheKRock

Rohann said:


> Indeed, awkward example...however, for _Marvel_, the score they ended up with was a pretty big leap from their normal, I-think-they-plagiarized-themselves norm. The example was more or less for how a franchise falling prey very much to the "copy what works" tropes tried something new and it worked wonderfully, ranking it one of the highest reviewed superhero movies of all time.
> 
> 
> This thread was a bit of fluff to begin with, so turning it into a thought-provoking discussion is more than welcome.
> 
> 
> Really glad to hear that! That sounds quite fulfilling.
> Hopefully directors (and more importantly, production teams/studios! I.e. the disaster that was The Hobbit) will catch on, but unfortunately my view of the business aspect of the "creative" industry is far more pessimistic. I hope you're right and that I'm wrong!
> Re: Trust. This seems so instrumental and is likely why great directors tend to be paired with great composers -- Nolan and Zimmer, Spielberg and Williams, Burton and Elfman, etc.



I hear you! I think as with everything its baby steps. I don't necessarily think what i do in my little corner of the world will change much but as they say 'every waterfall begins with a single drop of water' (to wax poetic)...maybe we can be that drop.


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## Rohann

TheKRock said:


> I hear you! I think as with everything its baby steps. I don't necessarily think what i do in my little corner of the world will change much but as they say 'every waterfall begins with a single drop of water' (to wax poetic)...maybe we can be that drop.


I sure hope so. Why it's not obvious to studios, at this point in time in the history of film, that creative scores dictate the vast majority of movement and atmosphere in a film is beyond me.


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## jamwerks

TheKRock said:


> I've been following this thread and although I am not a part of it i just wanted to add my 2 cents.../QUOTE]Nice thoughts, but easier to read with paragraphs!


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## mikehamm123

Valérie_D said:


> I heard Hans say more than one time in interviews that yes, some musicians or critics will look down on film music



Wonder if that's partly because ol' Hans is worth about $90 million? 

When I saw Inception, its the first time I really noticed Han's music--I loved it, so muscular and audacious. He's one of my favorite film composers, I don't really care if he isn't writing serious chamber music.


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## mikehamm123

sluggo said:


> "While the composer is responsible for creating the music, he/she is at the direction of at least 1 or more creative influences that may very well be near tone-deaf in terms of their musical sense and appreciation."



True, though Hans, like John Williams and Danny Elfman, are sort of 800 lb gorillas and probably have more influence than the average composer as to the use and disposition of their contributions.

But yeah cinema is the ultimate collaborative art and composers are often at the mercy of the director and money people.


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## Dave Connor

mikehamm123 said:


> Wonder if that's partly because ol' Hans is worth about $90 million?
> 
> When I saw Inception, its the first time I really noticed Han's music--I loved it, so muscular and audacious. He's one of my favorite film composers, I don't really care if he isn't writing serious chamber music.


The greatest misnomer about Hans Zimmer is that he doesn't have major composition chops. He does. That's completely apart from the things he is recognized for such as the rhythmic, ethnic, synthesized and other exceptional signatures found in his film work. People seem to latch on to the surface features of his music (no doubt because he keeps them in the forefront for clarity in the presentation/story-telling process.) Not so hidden in there is a high level of writing that is thoughtful in the extreme (the mark of any great composer: a total absence of laziness in working out a given musical idea to it's highest level of artistic exression - it's inevitability a la' Beethoven's process.) It's these simultaneous, multiple planes of simplicity and complexity that are the reason for his success both artistically and commercially in my opinion.


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## givemenoughrope

Dave Connor said:


> The greatest misnomer about Hans Zimmer is that he doesn't have major composition chops.



Not disagreeing, and it feels odd to even discuss since he's an active member here, but I'm curious which cues you hear this in the most. I always think about the openings of DK and DKR as well as Thin Red Line's overall arc and Inception on a conceptual level. Actually this cue comes to mind most of all:  It's not a dance but sure feels like one. 

Also that The Nolan quote that he is a minimalist composer with maximal production rings true but I've never thought of that as a cop out but more like coming from a brain that can utilize the most out of production and marry it to the composition and then of course the picture (I also always thought of him as sort of the ultimate spotter which I have read elsewhere since); similar to the kind of genius/elbow grease that goes into perfectly crafted lyrics that fit a song like a glove. So yea, which cues come to mind? Curious bc maybe I've missed some (I know I have) or maybe it's time to revisit and get inspired.


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## mikehamm123

I should say its possible Hans is writing 'serious' chamber music and I just don't know about it.

What hooked me when I saw Inception was:

The Dream is Collapsing 

Time 

I was particularly struck with Time in how my ear filled in the blanks... implied melody.


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## Dave Connor

givemenoughrope said:


> Not disagreeing, and it feels odd to even discuss since he's an active member here, but I'm curious which cues you hear this in the most.


Yes he's an active member here and perhaps the most criticized as well so no harm in chiming in. In my case I have observed a curious phenomena in the dismissal of his music as not having any particular depth. My explanation above was reached after a certain amount of thought because obviously something must have invited that criticism. It's the fact that he's doing his job so well in the emotional and dramatic clarity of his cues (job number one in film music.) So sure, one hear's a synth pulse or big percussion or a simplicity in a main theme: Hans Zimmer music! The fact is he does tons of subtle, highly musical things throughout a score (also job number one but often not thought of that way.)

He's very inventive both sonically and musically: he does _new_ things in both. I needn't mention the synthesized, sonic invention but this is a man who has reinvented the triad! Often with a combination of classical and synthesized orchestration but that's not what I'm taking about. He has a gift for voicings and added tones with the triad (or simple triads in a fresh order) that's also Hans Zimmer music! That is, unlike anyone else and entirely unique to him. It's an achievement along the lines of Eric Satie's reintroduction of the simple triad (if one is paying attention anyway.) As a minimalist (only one of his approaches) he's an absolute monstrosity. After attending a Phillip Glass opera and then finding myself listening to a reel of his Batman cues it was clear to me whose music was far more daring, interesting, exciting and well handled - HZ. Far more modern in every conceivable way. Whereas Glass' art appeals to handfuls of people (relatively) Hans' appeals to masses while not only not dumbed down, but moved forward even apart from the film context. He's a born composer and born film composer. As to the ultimate job number one, _writing to picture _he has an uncanny gift there as well. Who's better? So yes, I chime in when people display what strikes me as being a bit dull in apprehending what the fellow really has going, on the surface and under the hood.


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## mikehamm123

I agree Dave.

By the way, I was astounded when I heard the little puzzle in the Inception soundtrack. Playing with time--one of the themes of the movie. I was gobsmacked:


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## Dave Connor

Wow! How about that??


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## Dave Connor

givemenoughrope said:


> ... but I'm curious which cues you hear this in the most.


 Here is an example of HZ's invention apart from what I mentioned. The other day I flipped my TV to 12 Years A Slave (which I haven't seen still.) There was a very brief fiddle cue - twenty seconds or so. Well it was the most vibrant beautiful thing you ever heard. I wanted to own it immediately. This was my response before I remembered Hans scored the film. Now this is a throw away cue where it's function to picture is going to be accomplished with virtually any southern fiddle style cue of no particular quality. What does Hans do? He writes a series of scintillating, modulating phrases using a harmonic language closer to Richard Strauss than the Old South or West. Not only does it ring perfectly true musically but is energized and made new in a way that satisfies both the requirements of the film and the modern ear simultaneously. Personally, he's giving his take on a classic genre and showing {one way} he would do it to update it and give it a new appeal (and with stunning success.) Absolutely brilliant to do all that in a very brief statement that normally would require almost no thought at all. It makes laughable the claims he doesn't write his own music when there are few composers in or out of film that can (or will) do something like that.


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