# The Project Prague thread



## noiseboyuk (Feb 7, 2010)

This seems to come up quite a bit, and has recently all-but taken over the latest HS thread so I thought I'd start one here where we can all fill out boots! Here's the basics as I understand them - Project Prague is a custom, private library recorded a few years ago by a few composers. It has no scripting or legatos - beyond this info I have to say I know very little.

So listening to the cues here - http://www.scoredog.tv/music/music.html under Dog Bones which heavily uses PP - I got to thinking... what makes PP so special, and why hasn't something like this been released commercially? (caveat - are there solo instruments there which aren't PP... VSL?)

Now, from what I understand (and please correct me if I'm wrong), PP is a lot of odd bits and pieces... not a comprehensive library in the classic commercial sense. Perhaps its more of a gap-filler library? In that sense, I think the closest we have is Symphobia - it has a killer sound out of the box, and (I think?) like PP works in sections more than individual instruments. From what I hear though, it advances the notion to include specific runs and ornaments, which are very effective (HWW gives us some of this now in the winds, I guess).

The concept of a "filler" lib is an enticing one. Again, I'd have thought the best place for it might be Symphobia 2, whose sound has been widely praised and where the concept seems to fit best.


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## nikolas (Feb 7, 2010)

As far as I know the simple reason why it hasn't been released is the license: The orchestra which recorded the library NEVER gave permission for a commercial release, and most probably the release form signed must've mentioned that.

I'd gladly be paid a few thousand $ to make a non commercial piano library (just saying now), but for the QL pianos I'd request tens of thousands of $ (if not more). Different beast all together. 

PP, as I mentioned in the other thread, is surrounded with this magical aura, partly (perhaps) because of the amazing abilities of those involved! 

Now if we were to talk about HS instead... I'd have plenty of more things to say! :D


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## lux (Feb 7, 2010)

pp is old story here. Its still something that hasnt been nailed by any other lib out there, expecially for spaciality and some violins articulations (expecially ff). 

Its in the hands of a very few members. And they are still under nda with it so you'll not get much info about that.

Other custom libs have seen the light or have been mentioned on this board. Single members or group of members have, here and there, created custom content too.

but what impresses me is one thing. Please, could someone ask to Simon or Craig or someone else hows the lib sized on average, assumed they can tell. 

I think you'll be surprised.

There are libraries that still sound great without terabytes of data. One thing with reasonably or small sized libs is that if you need to operate some tweak on sample level you will do it. As it will not get your entire life to do it. If you have half million samples youre suppsed to leave things exactly as they are sample wise, unless you hire 4th brigade of marines to edit.

In general i say: pp is something we can all still learn from. Expecially when designing new libs.


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## Niah (Feb 7, 2010)

well, in a nutshell, *AIR*

You heard want Simon said in that thread right?  

PP is not a bits and pieces library, it is very comprehensive, there is even a PP2 library.
The most impressive mockups I have heard from Simon are mostly PP, with true strike and some VSL solo winds. So it is definitely not a filler library.

Now I don't own PP, but I do own VI-PRO which craig, simon, TJ, etc were also involved in it. It basically replaced all my commercial libs at the time (this was before lass) and the only difference is again the sound. It's raw, warm, airy, noisy, and,...human. It retained most of the imperfections from the original recordings.
A sound like this just fills the space and gives that element of magic that people talk about. Of course there's some cleverness involved as well, but that's pretty much it.

Nikolas has already stated one of the reasons most of these custom libs never get released, but another big reason for this is also that it would be a commercial failure.
The large majority of the market does not want a library like this, I don't why really, but alot of people work in ads, commercials, corporate stuff, TV work, etc, where things have to sound perfect for clients that demand it.
People have complained about noises and imperfections that are musical in EW, symphobia, and even VSL, yes VSL. They have even complained about the tuning is LASS. The market does not want libraries like this because it would only appeal to a minority of customers.
Companies and devs know this that's why they don't release an orchestral library that costs thousands of dollars of the likes of PP or other custom libs, only to see their costs not recovered.

They might release an imperfect piano but that's about it.  

When you set out to make a commercial lib you have to sell and therefor you have to compromise. When you are making a custom lib you only have to fulfill the requests of a small group of people.

That's why composers get together and do custom libs, "we are going to do it our way".


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## Peter Alexander (Feb 7, 2010)

There's clearly a "PP" history here that only a few know. Another question arises, however, which is, "What is VI-Pro?"

Whenever I see the initials "VI" I think Vienna Instruments. Some historical enlightenment would be appreciated.


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## Niah (Feb 7, 2010)

hmm, not much to tell really.

Simon posted a thread with a mockup of LOTR, using the PP trumpets. So the forum jsut said enough of this lets do our own custom lib too.  Some joined and became part of the team, some didn't because they thought vipro couldn't do any better than what other companies were doing already.

The rest is how they say, history. hehe

This is all "documented" here on the forum, I'm surprised you missed this since you have been here since the beginning.


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## midphase (Feb 7, 2010)

I think Niah nailed it. Most people are whiny beiotches and the moment they hear a slight imperfection they start complaining and bad mouthing a certain library. They don't realize that real players play in ways that are not always good sounding individually, but as a whole it makes a big difference.

I believe one of the things that makes LASS particularly realistic is that it's not perfect, and I believe a lot of the same PP ideas have gone into LASS.

I personally find Symphobia a bit too clean, I wish it was a bit more imperfect and noisy and out of tune, although it's way better than other sample libraries which have been normalized and autotuned to death.


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## Peter Alexander (Feb 7, 2010)

Niah @ Sun Feb 07 said:


> hmm, not much to tell really.
> 
> Simon posted a thread with a mockup of LOTR, using the PP trumpets. So the forum jsut said enough of this lets do our own custom lib too.  Some joined and became part of the team, some didn't because they thought vipro couldn't do any better than what other companies were doing already.
> 
> ...



I wasn't part of it so I had no need to put any time towards it!


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## madbulk (Feb 7, 2010)

And all the PP guys happen to be really talented, so their work lends a lot of lore to this lib.
I find it hard to believe and I don't remember any of them saying it's the grail. More the special sauce in the hands of some skilled guys who know what they want it to do.


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## Pzy-Clone (Feb 7, 2010)

Niah @ Sun Feb 07 said:


> People have complained about noises and imperfections that are musical in EW, symphobia, and even VSL, yes VSL. They have even complained about the tuning is LASS. The market does not want libraries like this because it would only appeal to a minority of customers.



Says who?
With all due respect, i dont think thats the case.
People would complain about the color purple given the chance, as far as i know...Symphobia and EWQLSO are the the most used and sold orchestral stuff out there...so the marked does indeed want libraries like these despite the noise and imperfections....thats partly what makes for example Symphobia so appealing.

Obviously keeping a great custom library exclusive to a select few gives the people in question the upper hand in the mockup world, and judging by the sound of PP it would sell by the bucketloads if released commercially.

Its not a case of "not being appealing" to the mass marked ( and i would argue that the marked for big orchestral libraries is rather small as it is...) but more about keeping the good stuff for yourself.  
Which is IMO the entire point of doing them in the first place?


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## madbulk (Feb 7, 2010)

I think Niah's right. The market is much narrower. And EWQLSO and Symphobia are examples of pristine libs. The errors and noises in there are trivial.
What our fairly small market needs is a low priced garbage performances library, made in a really good room. Just 9-12th chair players. You sprinkle that in with your mass market lib, and you've got something.


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## Sovereign (Feb 7, 2010)

Peter Alexander @ Sun Feb 07 said:


> There's clearly a "PP" history here that only a few know. Another question arises, however, which is, "What is VI-Pro?"


It's another custom lib, this is not so difficult.


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## midphase (Feb 7, 2010)

"Obviously keeping a great custom library exclusive to a select few gives the people in question the upper hand in the mockup world, and judging by the sound of PP it would sell by the bucketloads if released commercially."

Frumphmp....you guys still don't get it. What do you think Symphobia, LASS and HS are?

Think about it for a second, all 3 of those people were involved with PP (or the other aforementioned custom libraries), don't you think all 3 of those libraries contain similar sampling techniques as PP? Of course they do...only better! 

I don't have any first hand experience with PP, but I bet lots of it is already outdated compared to some of these new offerings. Kinda like the original HZ library, by the time stuff like VSL and QLSO came out, I bet even people who had access to it started filtering it out.


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## Niah (Feb 7, 2010)

@PeterAlexander,

It doesn't matter if you were apart of it or not, the library started right here in this section, the sample talk. And everybody witnessed the birth of it. You wanted the story that's the story, do a search and you shall find it.


@Pzy-Clone:

"says who?" Says the people on this forum. I am not making this up, as a matter of fact Nick Phoenix left the forum in a thread where people started to complain about noisefloor on the SD2 samples.
People have complained more than a few times about the noise in the erhu in RA and silk and when it was just bow noise!
These are just some examples.

The point that I was trying to make was that if people complain about tiny little "faults" in EW and symphobia which are libraries that are very perfect indeed, like midphase has mentioned, tuned to perfection in every way and not at all like PP, could you imagine the level of complains that a company would get if they released something like PP?

Of course part of making a custom library is also to give an edge in the competitive world of music of media. No doubt about that. But why hasn't a company released something like PP all these years? Big companies have much more resources and money than a small group of composers, what gives?
Why does HS not sound like PP or better even with TJ involved?

But lets say that these forums are not representative of the market, these are just individuals that complain for the sake of complaining. Lets go with that for a second.
If you go and talk to most dev and companies they will tell you pretty much what I have told you here, that something like PP would not probably sell. And these devs know the market and their costumer base much more than me or anyone.

With that said, I would love to be proven wrong by a company that has the balls to release something has uncomprimising as PP. 

Frankly I have lost the faith of that happening years ago. :|


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## Frederick Russ (Feb 7, 2010)

Peter Alexander @ Sun Feb 07 said:


> There's clearly a "PP" history here that only a few know. Another question arises, however, which is, "What is VI-Pro?"
> 
> Whenever I see the initials "VI" I think Vienna Instruments. Some historical enlightenment would be appreciated.



VI Pro was a custom composer collective that existed in 2005. The name was actually derived from several threads that joked of the peasants revolting with pitchforks before the castle of Project Prague of which the occupants refused to share their hidden secrets from the archives of their mad scientist laboratory. VI meant this community and PRO referring casually to the Orchestra of the Peasants Revolt 

It was largely an experimental project with over 40 members who helped edit samples and create custom instrument patches. The initial thought of the larger group was to keep per cost averages down when it came time to hire the studio and musicians. A little known fact though was that some of the original members of the Project Prague sessions also participated. Project Prague is very hard to beat though. It is arguably one of the best libraries around as far as sound quality critically speaking and because of that, its a tough act to follow. That said, we still had some jewels that many were happy with and are still in use to this day.


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## midphase (Feb 7, 2010)

"Why does HS not sound like PP or better even with TJ involved? "

We don't know that. I mean, there is no such thing AFAIK as a PP-only mock up. For all we know, PP by itself is considerably crappier sounding than we all think. 

The grass is always greener on the other side, I think the PP hype might have very well surpassed the reality.


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## Frederick Russ (Feb 7, 2010)

> Why does HS not sound like PP or better even with TJ involved?



We don't know that. Please - give them a chance to finish the library. 

TJ also signed an NDA with members of PP so there are limits to what he can actually share of his methods especially in the commercial offering. It may have been one of the reasons Maarten stuck with ensembles for Symphobia IMO so that there would not be any NDA conflicts (this is just speculation on my part btw).


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## Simon Ravn (Feb 7, 2010)

midphase @ Sun Feb 07 said:


> "Why does HS not sound like PP or better even with TJ involved? "
> 
> We don't know that. I mean, there is no such thing AFAIK as a PP-only mock up. For all we know, PP by itself is considerably crappier sounding than we all think.
> 
> The grass is always greener on the other side, I think the PP hype might have very well surpassed the reality.



There are probably cues I did that are 100% PP, but since we didn't record percussion, piano, harp and such, those will have to come from elsewhere. Also our horns didn't turn out very good and we didn't cover woodwinds completely, so I tend to use VSL + SI woodwinds alongside PP's woodwinds. But cues like these

http://simonravn.com/media/TOS-Fear.mp3 (some string-efx here are from VI Pro!)
http://simonravn.com/media/Milo-The-Tim ... Finale.mp3 
http://simonravn.com/media/Milo-ThePrin ... +Chase.mp3
http://simonravn.com/media/Greenland-night.mp3

are almost solely PP except for some woodwinds, horns (which are SI, VSL and SAM) + percussion, harp and piano. So it is by no means a "filler library" and is pretty comprehensive. Whether it is crappy sounding or not I will let other people judge 8)

But as already mentioned elsewhere there is no scripting or anything complicated like that involved even though I believe Thomas did some scripted patches in Kontakt, so in that respect is is very old fashioned.


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## noiseboyuk (Feb 7, 2010)

All interesting stuff. Just to clarify my OP re some of the initial responses - I'm not asking for PP to be released commercially as I know it's impossible, but I was curious as to what made it so great and if that something COULD be replicated in a future lib.

I love the imperfections in Symphobia (some EWQL imperfections I think are faults rather than genuine orchestral sounds - check out the Celesta!). So I get the air thing, I think.... do you think Symphobia has air? Sounds like it does to me. So given that - again - what makes PP special? I can't quite believe it's just errors!


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## Simon Ravn (Feb 7, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Sun Feb 07 said:


> All interesting stuff. Just to clarify my OP re some of the initial responses - I'm not asking for PP to be released commercially as I know it's impossible, but I was curious as to what made it so great and if that something COULD be replicated in a future lib.
> 
> I love the imperfections in Symphobia (some EWQL imperfections I think are faults rather than genuine orchestral sounds - check out the Celesta!). So I get the air thing, I think.... do you think Symphobia has air? Sounds like it does to me. So given that - again - what makes PP special? I can't quite believe it's just errors!



I must admit I haven't given Symphobia that much attention, mainly because I think it's too expensive considering what it has that I don't have already in other libraries. Was it half the price I would buy it instantly But from what I heard it sounds very nice and pretty "airy".


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## bryla (Feb 7, 2010)

Great thread 

NDA?


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## choc0thrax (Feb 7, 2010)

Heh, I keep forgetting that I have VI-PRO collecting dust on my hard drive. I should probably try using that sometime.

NDA means Non-Discolsure Agreement.


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## Stephen Baysted (Feb 7, 2010)

Simon Ravn @ Sun Feb 07 said:


> noiseboyuk @ Sun Feb 07 said:
> 
> 
> > All interesting stuff. Just to clarify my OP re some of the initial responses - I'm not asking for PP to be released commercially as I know it's impossible, but I was curious as to what made it so great and if that something COULD be replicated in a future lib.
> ...




Simon, Symphobia has some serious hidden gems, and used in a big template its ensemble patches can be seriously effective in my experience; the brass in particular is lovely. Definitely worth the money IMO. I just hope they do Symphobia 2. 

Cheers


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## synthetic (Feb 7, 2010)

I thought it was a bit sketch that TJ's Hollywood Strings demo used mostly custom samples. I also hoped that HS would be PP strings with a big budget, still hoping.


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## Ed (Feb 7, 2010)

nikolas @ Sun Feb 07 said:


> As far as I know the simple reason why it hasn't been released is the license: The orchestra which recorded the library NEVER gave permission for a commercial release, and most probably the release form signed must've mentioned that.



Dunno if that's the reason more than they all agreed they didn't want to sell it. Its the same for VI Pro, we could have sold it but it was agreed that it wouldnt be.


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## Ed (Feb 7, 2010)

midphase @ Sun Feb 07 said:


> "Why does HS not sound like PP or better even with TJ involved? "
> 
> We don't know that. I mean, there is no such thing AFAIK as a PP-only mock up. For all we know, PP by itself is considerably crappier sounding than we all think.
> 
> The grass is always greener on the other side, I think the PP hype might have very well surpassed the reality.



What are you talking about? TJ has done loads of PP only demos (or at least ones mostly featuring his custom sampling)

Remember Mojo Madness? AFAIK all custom apart from probably the choir and percussion. Look at HS's demo everyone likes, that's all custom apart from the strings. PP is good, I think some people just want to pretend it isnt' "all that". Maarten has also said he mostly uses PP.


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## Ed (Feb 7, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Sun Feb 07 said:


> do you think Symphobia has air? Sounds like it does to me.



I love the sound of the soft strings in Symphobia, but somehow looses something at higher velocities imo. Also you loose the air at low dynamics if you use the crossfade patch compared with the normal velocity patch. why? I assume the filters mess things up. A shame.


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## Niah (Feb 7, 2010)

Frederick Russ @ Sun Feb 07 said:


> > Why does HS not sound like PP or better even with TJ involved?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think I may have chosed badly my words here.

I didn't meant to go there. Objectively speaking PP is not better or worse than any other lib it's just different.

But we can draw a line betwen commercial libraries and custom ones. They clearly sound different, I have not heard just PP or vipro but others as well and you can spot them a mile away.

Essentially what we are talking about is that there's a clear distinction in nature, sound and philosophy between a commercial library and an custom one. And why is that?
Well I have stated why I think are the reasons.
When we heard about TJ's involvement, people started talking that finally we would have a commercial library with the same elements, characterics and aesthetic, etc, of a custom one.
But I remained skeptical, especially keeping in mind the restrictions and conditions that a commercial project demands.
I don't think we need to wait until HS is finished to realise that HS sounds more like a commercial library rather than a custom one.
I believe that if the people behind PP decided Project Prague to be a commercial library rather than a custom one, PP would be a very different library today.

I mean I was just thinking, we don't even have drum libraries with noise. :|


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## Ed (Feb 7, 2010)

Niah @ Sun Feb 07 said:


> I mean I was just thinking, we don't even have drum libraries with noise. :|



Shame we had troublesome trains running through Vi Pro sessions mucking up the soft dynamics


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## Niah (Feb 7, 2010)

Ed @ Sun Feb 07 said:


> Niah @ Sun Feb 07 said:
> 
> 
> > I mean I was just thinking, we don't even have drum libraries with noise. :|
> ...



and that's bad??

you see, it's because of people like you that we have these super clean libs.


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## dogforester (Feb 7, 2010)

Are there any VI PRO demos I could hear out of interest ?


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## Frederick Russ (Feb 7, 2010)

dogforester @ Sun Feb 07 said:


> Are there any VI PRO demos I could hear out of interest ?



http://www.soaringmusic.com/The_Great_Getaway_Ver3.mp3

This has VI Pro Horns, Trombones and Trumpets. Choir is custom from a different sampling session.


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## Simon Ravn (Feb 7, 2010)

Very nice, Frederick! I must admit I haven't gotten to the point where I implemented much of VI into my template but I should get to it


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## Frederick Russ (Feb 7, 2010)

Thanks man. Right back at you btw - your stuff is awesome like usual


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## muziksculp (Feb 7, 2010)

Very interesting topic. 

If I may ask, what exactly is meant by 'Air' when referring to (PP strings library) ? A bit more specifics about the term 'Air' would be interesting.

What I notice about PP strings after listening to some of the audio demos, is that they sound very natural, especially their timbre is very rich, and warm, without any oddness that is usually associated with sampled strings. I'm not sure if this is what others are referring to when referring to the term 'Air'. I also notice that the timbre of the strings is very pleasing, rich, and warm, and they sure have a nice amount of spatial dimension, kind of 3-dimensional 'floating' sound, rather than a 'flat' 2-dimensional sound. 

It is very likely that EW-HS has that magical 'Air' that PP has, and much more to offer ! I'm pretty confident that Doug, Nick, and the EW-HS development team know about this unique quality that PP offers, and were aiming to have a similar type of 'Airy' quality to the one PP offers, or possibly even better.

But, the only way to prove this is for EW to post some HS audio demos, and hopefully we will hear that magical 'Air' in HS, similar to what PP offers, and maybe HS can offer a lots more charisma, flexibility, realism, and character than PP. Given the specs, and features of EW-HS, and the quality of gear, and talent, that went into producing it, I'm very optimistic, but, then again, HS Audio Demos are the only way we will be able to judge, and tell if HS has the magic formula that will tickle our ears, and put a big smile on our faces.

Cheers.


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## Simon Ravn (Feb 7, 2010)

muziksculp,

with "air" I am really just referring to high frequency material in the audio, generally above 4-5khz all the way up to 15-20khz. That the samples sound open, as opposed to a sound that seems like a pillow has been put over the recording. The pillow scenario would be the extreme opposite here


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## Niah (Feb 7, 2010)

dogforester @ Sun Feb 07 said:


> Are there any VI PRO demos I could hear out of interest ?



I'm definitely not as talented as most of the people involved in vipro but for what it's worth I have put together some old cues on this file:

http://www.box.net/shared/3q9e3etg60 

and here's another one : http://www.box.net/shared/eizjaud8gh

I have also found these two pieces in my HD, I believe they were done by sovereign. I hope it's ok for me to post them because they sound fantastic to my ears, if not just say the word and I will remove them immediately.

http://www.box.net/shared/8luoe7ue80
http://www.box.net/shared/q40qyepedj


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## muziksculp (Feb 7, 2010)

Simon Ravn @ Sun Feb 07 said:


> muziksculp,
> 
> with "air" I am really just referring to high frequency material in the audio, generally above 4-5khz all the way up to 15-20khz. That the samples sound open, as opposed to a sound that seems like a pillow has been put over the recording. The pillow scenario would be the extreme opposite here



Thanks for the explanation.


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## choc0thrax (Feb 7, 2010)

Frederick Russ @ Sun Feb 07 said:


> dogforester @ Sun Feb 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Are there any VI PRO demos I could hear out of interest ?
> ...



Hmm, that sounds pretty good. Wish my VIPRO was complete, I seem to be missing a lot of patches.


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## noiseboyuk (Feb 7, 2010)

Ed @ Sun Feb 07 said:


> noiseboyuk @ Sun Feb 07 said:
> 
> 
> > do you think Symphobia has air? Sounds like it does to me.
> ...



I find the soft DYN patch to be pretty good though for the low velocities... I agree the main DYN patch isn't so good for subtle stuff.


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## Ed (Feb 7, 2010)

Niah @ Sun Feb 07 said:


> and that's bad??
> 
> you see, it's because of people like you that we have these super clean libs.



Want me to post an example with some soft harp plucks? I dont think THAT noisy is what people want


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## Ed (Feb 7, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Sun Feb 07 said:


> I find the soft DYN patch to be pretty good though for the low velocities... I agree the main DYN patch isn't so good for subtle stuff.



Yea the soft DYN is good and I use it a lot, but if you compare to the softest dynamics of the normal VEL patch its still quite different.


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## dogforester (Feb 8, 2010)

Thanks Frederick and Niah, sounds pretty good to me. I like the sound of the trumpets.


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## Craig Sharmat (Feb 8, 2010)

Ed @ Sun Feb 07 said:


> Niah @ Sun Feb 07 said:
> 
> 
> > and that's bad??
> ...



Hey I played those noisy harp plucks!
I think there is a noise reduced version somewhere.

btw
all the cues I did on Dog Bones are all PP except of course choir,perc and the winds in Spuds dissonance since it was a VSL demo to show off their winds many moons ago.

The biggest thing in my minds eye is I still hear demos from others who just use commercial libs and they sound great. People like Alex Pfeffer, Troels,Alex Temple,Piet Leon and a host of others I can't come up with (I would include Colin but he has too much custom stuff). I also know there are some new guys but i have not kept up. Yeah its great to have tools but know how is way more important. I am not sure it has helped me get any job though I doubt it has hurt.


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## Mike Connelly (Feb 8, 2010)

Ed @ Sun Feb 07 said:


> Look at HS's demo everyone likes, that's all custom apart from the strings.



Actually, all the percussion in that demo is EWQLSO. And they haven't said what the rest is - some is probably PP but unless they tell us we have no way of knowing specifically what or how much.


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## muziksculp (Feb 8, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> Ed @ Sun Feb 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Look at HS's demo everyone likes, that's all custom apart from the strings.
> ...



HS sound wonderful ! I'm looking forward to more HS audio demos. 

Why would EW produce a demo with a third-party sample library mixed into it, especially a custom library such as PP, when they can do it using EWQLSO ? 

My guess the HS demo was done using HS and EWQLSO. without any third party/custom libraries mixed into it.


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## Frederick Russ (Feb 8, 2010)

Craig Sharmat @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> Hey I played those noisy harp plucks!
> I think there is a noise reduced version somewhere.



Here is the noise reduced version.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Feb 8, 2010)

> y guess the HS demo was done using HS and EWQLSO. without any third party/custom libraries mixed into it.



Er. no. The brass, choir, etc are NOT EWQLSO. If it was they would be advertising the heck out of that.

However, having 3rd party STRING libraries mixed in with HS, doesn't make sense. Does PP have brass as well?


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## Mike Connelly (Feb 8, 2010)

muziksculp @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> Why would EW produce a demo with a third-party sample library mixed into it, especially a custom library such as PP, when they can do it using EWQLSO ?



You'll have to ask them that. From the EWSO forum:



Doug Rogers said:


> So, for the sake of clarity, these are HOLLYWOOD STRINGS demos, and all strings in both demos are entirely from the HOLLYWOOD STRINGS collection, all instruments and voices in the demos are sequenced samples, it took Thomas 3 days to construct the last piece "Allegro Agitato", there are no live orchestra, choirs or any other players. We don't wish to discusòŽm   Ã‰ÞŽm   Ã‰ßŽm   Ã‰àŽm   Ã‰áŽm   Ã‰âŽm   Ã‰ãŽm   Ã‰äŽm   Ã‰åŽm   Ã‰æŽm   Ã‰çŽm   Ã‰èŽm   Ã‰éŽm   Ã‰êŽm   Ã‰ëŽm   Ã‰ìŽm   Ã‰íŽm   Ã‰îŽm   Ã‰ïŽm   Ã‰ðŽm   Ã‰ñŽm   Ã‰òŽm   Ã‰óŽm   Ã‰ôŽm   Ã‰õŽm   Ã‰öŽm   Ã‰÷Žm   Ã‰øŽm   Ã‰ùŽm   Ã‰úŽm   Ã‰ûŽm   Ã‰üŽm   Ã‰ýŽm   Ã‰þŽm   Ã‰ÿŽm   ÃŠ Žm   ÃŠŽm   ÃŠŽm   ÃŠŽm   ÃŠŽm   ÃŠŽm   ÃŠŽm   ÃŠŽm   ÃŠŽm   ÃŠ	Žm   ÃŠ
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## muziksculp (Feb 8, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> muziksculp @ Mon Feb 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Why would EW produce a demo with a third-party sample library mixed into it, especially a custom library such as PP, when they can do it using EWQLSO ?
> ...



I see. So, they mixed PP with HS. Hmmm... not sure if that is a good thing to do, when they are marketing EWQLSO as a top of the line Orch, library. I'm very curious why they didn't use EWQLSO exclusively, with HS, instead of PP ? 

IMHO, it's Very odd for EW to not use EWQLSO exclusively, along side HS, especially in their first demo of HS. 

Any ideas why they used PP instead ?


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## choc0thrax (Feb 8, 2010)

muziksculp @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> Mike Connelly @ Mon Feb 08 said:
> 
> 
> > muziksculp @ Mon Feb 08 said:
> ...



Because it sounds a lot better.


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## Niah (Feb 8, 2010)

muziksculp @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> Any ideas why they used PP instead ?



eheh take a guess...

Anyway they didn't say he used PP, they said that the libraries used were custom. And the reason is quite simple, they just sound way better. 8) 

Besides this is not the first time a TJ demo uses his own custom libs.

I mean he made them, he knows them like the back of his hand, the most impressive mockups I have heard from TJ were made with his custom libs...so, why not?


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## Frederick Russ (Feb 8, 2010)

The PP library and TJ are fairly legendary (around here anyway). That HS keeps up right along with TJ's custom libraries is actually remarkable - a thumbs up to EW rather than a detraction. And could be perhaps somewhat of a sneak preview of things to expect from EW in future releases. I see no problem with it.


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## Mike Connelly (Feb 8, 2010)

It's a tough situation for a company that has a brand spanking library coming out for one section but is still selling a version of the other sections that is older and more out of date.

If they did a demo with EWQLSO for the other sections, the overall sound of the demo isn't as good and it doesn't make as good an impression.

On the other hand, use the best brass, wind, and choir libraries you can find, and you have a better shot of blowing people away. But the downside is that if people are too impressed by the other sections, the discussion moves from the topic of the strings to what the other samples are. And doing a demo that doesn't use the company's flagship library comes off as an admission that there are better options out there.

It's a fine line to walk. They'll probably sell a ton of copies of HS, but many of those customers will probably go elsewhere for winds and brass. I wonder if they'll do some sort of special bundle of Platinum for people who don't already own it in an attempt to keep those customers needing the other sections.


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## Peter Alexander (Feb 8, 2010)

Niah @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> muziksculp @ Mon Feb 08 said:
> 
> 
> > So, why not?



I'll give you a sales answer rather than an "artistic" one. According to EW web site, 30,000 individuals bought QLSO.

Presumably, a fair number bought both Gold and Platinum at the original price of $2499 and $1899 (or there abouts). 

So, to do Hollywood Strings demos restricted to using QLSO

1. Shows a large existing base of owners the next step in their purchasing with EW and what can be achieved.

2. Offers new bundle packages with HS + Gold and HS + Plat. 

If some demos are done with HS and other commercially available packages, then that demonstrates to owners of these other libraries why they should buy Hollywood Strings.

So this brings in another base of buyers.

When the demo is focused on HS and private libraries, you start raising more questions then you answer with folks who want to know how easily HS will blend with what they have already.


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## muziksculp (Feb 8, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> And doing a demo that doesn't use the company's flagship library comes off as an admission that there are better options out there.



yes, that was my point. Oh well... Unless they will be surprising us soon, with the announcement of their next big line up (namely) :

* Hollywood Brass
* Hollywood Woodwinds
* Hollywood Percussion


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## Ed (Feb 8, 2010)

choc0thrax @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> Because it sounds a lot better.



There was a guy on the East West forum that said the brass sounded like Project SAM Brass. lol



Nathan Allen Pinard @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> So basically PP is a non legato library, but the sound itself trumps more commercial libs right? But why do I hear such realistic string runs and such with PP (mainly on craigs site) is that a result of just recording the right articulations with the artists tastes in mind?
> 
> Heck...that's almost a new thread. Sorry.



They did record runs. Apparently no one else has really done that yet. 

I guess that's what Andrew has planned for LASS 2 since he says it will focus on that stuff.



Mike Connelly @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> He later said the percussion is all EWQLSO.



Where did he say that?


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## madbulk (Feb 8, 2010)

I'll give you a lazy answer rather than a good one.
TJ does his best and fastest work with his own template, and it doesn't contain all that much SO.
I'll bet Nick is going to contribute a demo or two or ten at some point, and they'll likely be wall to wall EWQL.


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## muziksculp (Feb 8, 2010)

Indirectly they are sending a clear message that EWQLSO with HS won't be able to sound as good as this demo. So, strategy wise, I think it does not favor one of their flagship products, EWQLSO. 

IMHO, not a very smart move from EW. Although the intention was to demo EW-HS.


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## Ed (Feb 8, 2010)

muziksculp @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> So, strategy wise, I think it does not favor one of their flagship products, EWQLSO.



DUH 

Will it affect sales? How could it, when there's no alternative? You can't buy TJ's libraries. Also, a certain percentage (large) will just assume its QLSO anyway.

TJ's custom stuff is great, but TJ always made samples sound good. I remember his Roland stuff and thinking it sounded amazing. I just missed the whole drama at NS in 2002 where he would post stuff and people claimed (apparently) that he was lying and that it was live. I liked the similar situation here where people claimed the HS demo had live brass, choirs etc.


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## Mike Connelly (Feb 8, 2010)

Ed @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> But its not a demo for East West / Quantum Leap Symphonic Orchestra, its a demo for Hollywood Strings. That demo used Hollywood strings.
> 
> I don't see the problem.



It's not a problem for HS sales, although I think it may send potential EWQLSO customers looking for better options.



Ed @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> Unless TJ used VSL rather than a custom library then you might have had a point, either way it was Hollywood Strings demo so the only problem would be if he didn't use Hollywood Strings.



We don't know what he used, it's entirely possible that some of it is VSL. True, it's said to be mostly private samples, but it still doesn't show much confidence in the other EWQLSO sections. Same with choir, which doesn't seem to be EW.

How many sample companies release demos using someone else's sounds for instruments that they sell?


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## Mike Connelly (Feb 8, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> Where did he say that?



http://soundsonline-forums.com/showthre ... post596361



Doug Rogers said:


> The percussion in Thomas's demo is all from EWQLSO.


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## noiseboyuk (Feb 8, 2010)

muziksculp @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> Indirectly they are sending a clear message that EWQLSO with HS won't be able to sound as good as this demo. So, strategy wise, I think it does not favor one of their flagship products, EWQLSO.
> 
> IMHO, not a very smart move from EW. Although the intention was to demo EW-HS.



I don't agree, really. SO is now of a certain age. It's still amazing for what it is, and the prices in their various promotions are really quite extraordinary. If you are canny when you buy, you could (effectively!) get 4 or 5 copies the complete orchestra (Gold) for 1 string section (HS)! HS is a next-generation product. If all four sections were available for similar prices, that makes the new generation 20x more expensive than the last - worth reflecting on for the man on the street.

I don't think it sends a message that SO is bad - it's just what EWQL were doing several years ago. I think it sends a message that HS is in another league, and there's no shame in that.


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## muziksculp (Feb 8, 2010)

EWQL markets their EWQLSO Plat. as a first-class orchestral library, then post the first demo of their new EW-HS using third party instruments for all brass, choir, and woodwinds. 

Now what does that say ? 

I sure hope their next few demos will use EW products like (EWQLSO Plat., and other EW titles) instead of any custom, or third party libraries, just to give us a flavor of how it sounds with EWQLSO.

Well... On the other hand, EW-HS is a library that will most likely be purchased by many composers who do not necessarily use EWQLSO, so this would be in favor of EW-HS, since the demo shows how good it sounds with a non-EW orch. selection of libraries, i.e. EW-HS is very flexible, and is not bound to work best with EWQLSO.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Feb 8, 2010)

muziksculp @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> EWQL markets their EWQLSO Plat. as a first-class orchestral library, then post the first demo of their new EW-HS using third party instruments for all brass, choir, and woodwinds.
> 
> Now what does that say ?
> 
> ...



I personally think that HS was not meant to work with SO. I think EW acknowledges that SO is a good library, but older generation. HS for them, is the first step into their new generation of orchestral libraries. They want people to hear HS with the more quality libraries out there. They want people to hear the realism match WITH HS.


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## madbulk (Feb 8, 2010)

Ed @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> I just missed the whole drama at NS in 2002 where he would post stuff and people claimed (apparently) that he was lying and that it was live.


I remember when Mojo came out , one guy made a bet and Craig made made him eat his own hand. 
#YouCanLookItUp


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## madbulk (Feb 8, 2010)

Ed @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> I just missed the whole drama at NS in 2002 where he would post stuff and people claimed (apparently) that he was lying and that it was live.


I remember when Mojo came out , one guy made a bet and Craig made made him eat his own hand. 
#YouCanLookItUp


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## Mike Connelly (Feb 8, 2010)

So are there any "next-gen" brass or woodwind libraries that rival PP?

Symphobia and Hollywoodwinds seem very cool, but neither has much in the way of solo instruments so they're not complete solutions. What other libraries (instruments?) are contenders, or are brass and winds just generally lagging the recent burst of new string libraries?


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Feb 8, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> So are there any "next-gen" brass or woodwind libraries that rival PP?
> 
> Symphobia and Hollywoodwinds seem very cool, but neither has much in the way of solo instruments so they're not complete solutions. What other libraries (instruments?) are contenders, or are brass and winds just generally lagging the recent burst of new string libraries?



Quite a combination really. VSL (especially Epic Horns), SamBrass, WIVI (if done right and mixed with others), The Trumpet, etc.


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## synergy543 (Feb 8, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> SO is now of a certain age.


Since when do digital audio recordings deteriorate like sneakers?


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## Mike Connelly (Feb 8, 2010)

synergy543 @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> Since when do digital audio recordings deteriorate like sneakers?



I assume you're joking, but it's not that the library has gotten worse, it's that as the years have passed, newer options have come along and taken advantage of more advanced sampling techniques.

None of the EWQLSO instruments even have real legato.


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## Ed (Feb 8, 2010)

madbulk @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> Ed @ Mon Feb 08 said:
> 
> 
> > I just missed the whole drama at NS in 2002 where he would post stuff and people claimed (apparently) that he was lying and that it was live.
> ...



I remember someone called me deaf about the HS demo saying the choir HAD to be live lol



Mike Connelly @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> None of the EWQLSO instruments even have real legato.



Even though TJ did a lot of work with scripting Simon said PP didn't have real legato either.
_
Course at the time of QLSO people believed you could only record legato in a certain *cough* dry way, but we've been over that before and finally I was proved right._


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## Mike Connelly (Feb 8, 2010)

To be fair, there was some misinformation floating around about that demo, namely that it was done in one day.

Also, I don't think most people even considered the possibility that EW would put out a demo that used someone else's libraries.

I'm still curious how he managed that choir stuff with samples, does he have his own custom version of a word builder or did he just record an assortment of random lyrics?

And Ed, give it a rest already, if you really need to keep making yourself feel better someone thankfully made a separate thread for that.


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## Ed (Feb 8, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> Also, I don't think most people even considered the possibility that EW would put out a demo that used someone else's libraries.



The dominant opinion was not that it was recorded with QLSO, but that it was LIVE.


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## Ed (Feb 8, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> And Ed, give it a rest already, if you really need to keep making yourself feel better someone thankfully made a separate thread for that.



Bear in mind he http://www.edbradshawmusic.com/TJ_Cemetery_Waltz_clip.mp3 (did this) with East West Choirs and some vocal synth layered on the top that I forget the name of.


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## Mike Connelly (Feb 8, 2010)

Ed @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> The dominant opinion was not that it was recorded with QLSO, but that it was LIVE.



That's my point. It was obvious from listening that it wasn't EWQLSO, so I wouldn't be surprised if some ruled out the possibility of using other libraries and assumed the only other thing that EW would consider using would be live players.

The fact that it sounds more like a live recording than it sounds like EWQLSO (or EWSQ) doesn't say much for EWQLSO.


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## Ed (Feb 8, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> The fact that it sounds more like a live recording than it sounds like EWQLSO (or EWSQ) doesn't say much for EWQLSO.



TJ was hardly going to reinstall QLSO again after being able to do things like this or things like this.

I knew from the beginning they weren't going to have a TJ demo with QLSO. In fact Im suspicious about the claim that he had any QLSO in there at all since he told me years ago that he uninstalled it and how he uses True Strike so the idea that he'd go back to using QLSO percussion would be weird.

Don't worry they'll have more QLSOy demos for you to listen to I'm sure. I mean, Nick's sure to do a demo


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## choc0thrax (Feb 8, 2010)

Ed @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> Mike Connelly @ Mon Feb 08 said:
> 
> 
> > And Ed, give it a rest already, if you really need to keep making yourself feel better someone thankfully made a separate thread for that.
> ...



Hehe I know what "vocal synth" he used. Did TJ say it's okay to post that? Or did he publicly post that somewhere previously that I didn't notice.


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## Ed (Feb 8, 2010)

choc0thrax @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> Hehe I know what "vocal synth" he used. Did TJ say it's okay to post that? Or did he publicly post that somewhere previously that I didn't notice.



Its all public now (_its on the Shadows and Nightmare's cd_)

Incidental I could never make that synth sound like that. First note sounded fine, then it just sounded like a dirty synth.


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## choc0thrax (Feb 8, 2010)

Ed @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> choc0thrax @ Mon Feb 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Hehe I know what "vocal synth" he used. Did TJ say it's okay to post that? Or did he publicly post that somewhere previously that I didn't notice.
> ...



Ahh ok.


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## choc0thrax (Feb 8, 2010)

Ed @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> choc0thrax @ Mon Feb 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Hehe I know what "vocal synth" he used. Did TJ say it's okay to post that? Or did he publicly post that somewhere previously that I didn't notice.
> ...



Oh so you do know what synth it is.


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## Mike Connelly (Feb 8, 2010)

Ed @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> TJ was hardly going to reinstall QLSO again after being able to do things like this or things like this.



Again, it's not much of an endorsement when a guy who is working on a project for EW doesn't even think EWQLSO is worth keeping installed.


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## Ed (Feb 8, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> Again, it's not much of an endorsement when a guy who is working on a project for EW doesn't even think EWQLSO is worth keeping installed.



I see your point, but he was working on Hollywood Strings not QLSO. Nick still uses QLSO.


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## Craig Sharmat (Feb 8, 2010)

Let me help out here a little.

The strings in the demo have to be HS and the perc is QLSO.

The brass in PP is ok except the trumps which are great. The horns are fat but quite out of tune. Simon mentions he stays away from them and usually I do too. I really need to go back and retune them. Lower brass pretty much the same. We got nice winds but nothing that should be really coveted. I use them along with VSL because it has real legato and a Sonivox Bassoon which has nice personality. So you can covet PP for the trumpets...that should not keep anyone up at night.


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## Mike Connelly (Feb 8, 2010)

Any guess what the choirs in the demo might be?


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## noiseboyuk (Feb 8, 2010)

Interesting Craig, thanks!

I'm coming round to thinking that the aura around PP is greater than the reality. It would be an interesting exercise to hear the by-now-legendary HS demo using only commercial libs. I'm sure the choir would suffer, but I think almost all the rest is achievable by a man with Thomas' talent (or at least would be very close).


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## choc0thrax (Feb 8, 2010)

Yeah I'd like to hear the horns in the HS demo done with EWQLSO horns.


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## Mike Connelly (Feb 8, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> It would be an interesting exercise to hear the by-now-legendary HS demo using only commercial libs. I'm sure the choir would suffer, but I think almost all the rest is achievable by a man with Thomas' talent (or at least would be very close).



I agree that that would be interesting, although it's entirely possible that at least some of it is already from commercial libraries. As well as private libraries other than PP. The general assumption is that the demo is mostly PP other than strings and percussion, but maybe that is the case or maybe it's not.

I _really_ wish all companies would do demos like Tonehammer and a few others - do a full version that includes other libraries but also put up a "naked" version that is the featured library alone. Hugely useful that way.


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## mikebarry (Feb 8, 2010)

muziksculp @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> Mike Connelly @ Mon Feb 08 said:
> 
> 
> > And doing a demo that doesn't use the company's flagship library comes off as an admission that there are better options out there.
> ...




I can assure there will be no East West Hollywood Woodwinds - as we have a product of the same name and announced and released our line before East West announced theirs.


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## Mike Connelly (Feb 8, 2010)

mikebarry @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> I can assure there will be no East West Hollywood Woodwinds - as we have a product of the same name and announced and released our line before East West announced theirs.



I was wondering about that. Had you guys announced strings and brass as future libraries? Or maybe should I say, are you planning them?


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## Hannesdm (Feb 8, 2010)

mikebarry @ Tue Feb 09 said:


> muziksculp @ Mon Feb 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Mike Connelly @ Mon Feb 08 said:
> ...



Well, in fact your library is called Hollywoodwinds.
So in theory, they can name their product Hollywood Woodwinds.
Although, I don't think they're gonna do that. Would be kinda lame.. :wink:


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## Mike Connelly (Feb 8, 2010)

Trademarked names don't just have to be a little different, they have to be different enough that customers couldn't confuse the two products.

I doubt "Hollywood Woodwinds" would be able to win a trademark lawsuit.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Feb 8, 2010)

EW usually stacks "Quantum Leap" before all titles though.


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## mikebarry (Feb 8, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> mikebarry @ Mon Feb 08 said:
> 
> 
> > I can assure there will be no East West Hollywood Woodwinds - as we have a product of the same name and announced and released our line before East West announced theirs.
> ...



Nothing is announced but it is most logical that these products will be done by us in the future.


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## Craig Sharmat (Feb 8, 2010)

You could have 

West Hollywood Winds 

though I don't think I want to be in on that session.


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## Mike Connelly (Feb 8, 2010)

mikebarry @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> Nothing is announced but it is most logical that these products will be done by us in the future.



If you have hollywood brass or perc in mind, you might want to try and get the names trademarked now if it's not too late already...


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## mikebarry (Feb 8, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> mikebarry @ Mon Feb 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Nothing is announced but it is most logical that these products will be done by us in the future.
> ...



Thanks Mike - we are and have been aware of this situation for some time now.


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## Mike Connelly (Feb 8, 2010)

Sorry, there I go stating the obvious.


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## Hannesdm (Feb 8, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Tue Feb 09 said:


> Trademarked names don't just have to be a little different, they have to be different enough that customers couldn't confuse the two products.
> 
> I doubt "Hollywood Woodwinds" would be able to win a trademark lawsuit.



Ah, didn't know that! Thanks!


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## Ed (Feb 8, 2010)

choc0thrax @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> Yeah I'd like to hear the horns in the HS demo done with EWQLSO horns.



:lol: :lol:

Edit: Here's another cool thing by TJ and his custom samples.


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## RiffWraith (Feb 8, 2010)

Ed @ Tue Feb 09 said:


> choc0thrax @ Mon Feb 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah I'd like to hear the horns in the HS demo done with EWQLSO horns.
> ...



Most of the TSFH stuff is live, Ed.


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## Niah (Feb 8, 2010)

RiffWraith @ Tue Feb 09 said:


> Ed @ Tue Feb 09 said:
> 
> 
> > choc0thrax @ Mon Feb 08 said:
> ...



Not most of it, *some* of it.

The music from vol 1 is not done with a live orchestra.


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## RiffWraith (Feb 8, 2010)

Pretty sure it's most, not some. Maybe Nick can chime in here...


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## Niah (Feb 8, 2010)

Either way you want to look at it it doesn't change the fact that the tracks that Ed posted were done with samples.

No need for Nick to chime in since this was done by TJ who has confirmed that it is samples.


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## synthetic (Feb 8, 2010)

For proof that 'it's the Indian, not the arrow,' here's a TJ piece from around 2001 where he kicks all of our asses using VSL First Edition. 

http://www.jefflaity.com/music/MP3/thom ... hePast.m4a


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## choc0thrax (Feb 9, 2010)

synthetic @ Tue Feb 09 said:


> For proof that 'it's the Indian, not the arrow,' here's a TJ piece from around 2001 where he kicks all of our asses using VSL First Edition.
> 
> http://www.jefflaity.com/music/MP3/thom ... hePast.m4a



Ah that's the piece I was looking for before. I think that's from around 2003. I recall Thomas did it in like an hour after he had gotten the performance set.


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## lux (Feb 9, 2010)

the project plague thread


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 9, 2010)

Remembering the Past is a really kick-ass piece! 8)


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## madbulk (Feb 9, 2010)

And that was from a really young composer. Who were his teachers? They gotta be kinda proud.


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## Ed (Feb 9, 2010)

RiffWraith @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> Most of the TSFH stuff is live, Ed.



Not back then, Riffwraith 

This was their first release. Just listen to Nicks stuff from the same library, its QLSO all the way.

Heres anotherTJ track. Hard to believe its not live, I know.


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## synthetic (Feb 9, 2010)

lux @ Tue Feb 09 said:


> the project plague thread



"It's the Indian, not the arrow" means that it's the talent that's important, not the tools. I was demonstrating that even without PP, TJ can kick ass. I have some of his demos like this for EWQLSO that are almost as impressive, but "Remembering The Past" is such great writing and orchestration as well as being an amazing mix. 

Keep studying scores and practicing and don't worry about the magic sample library you can't have.


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## Ed (Feb 9, 2010)

synthetic @ Tue Feb 09 said:


> lux @ Tue Feb 09 said:
> 
> 
> > the project plague thread
> ...



Anyone remember those Roland/ultimate strings created ones? The SAM horns demo was great too.


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## lux (Feb 9, 2010)

synthetic @ Tue Feb 09 said:


> lux @ Tue Feb 09 said:
> 
> 
> > the project plague thread
> ...



why you quoted me with that?


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## midphase (Feb 9, 2010)

Sometime the quoting doesn't work the way it's supposed to. I've been quoted on stuff I didn't say plenty of times....I think it's a software error.

On a related note....what a useless thread!


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## lux (Feb 9, 2010)

i kinda agree with that.


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## handz (May 23, 2010)

VI PRO...those were days... Life is running fast.

Thanks for those TJ link ed - it´s always nice listen to his work (even a bit frustrating, cause his level of makeing samples sound live is damn high)


And good to see Simon here.


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