# Do you guys believe in weird cults?



## midphase (Mar 8, 2007)

Lately I've been reading some fascinating info on various cults in history. It's always interested me that so many people in the past have joined really wacked out cults with strangely charismatic leaders which preach the weirdest scenarios.

This has led me to research for actual existing cults in various places...and particularly in California. Apparently I'm not the only one with this bizarre interest...I found a web site by this journalist who claims that an actual dark cult exists right now right here in Cali...and they sound really bizarre!

Here is a link to his site if anyone is interested enough to check it out:

http://web.mac.com/ej07/iWeb/Site/Welcome.html

I also think he's got a MySpace page with some other blogs of how his investigation is coming along....it actually makes me curious as to who this guy really is or if any of this stuff is real.

What do you guys think about all this? Could we be witnessing the beginning of the whole Heaven's Gate all over again? Will we see these guys on TV in a few months after some mass suicide?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 8, 2007)

I don't know, but the Jonestown episode haunted me for months after it happened. That was the weirdest and among the most disturbing things I've heard of in my life.

But it's happened since on a slightly smaller scale, and I have no reason to doubt it'll happen again.

The last time - that insane-looking guy who had his followers kill themselves to catch the comet - was also weird. One of the scenes that stuck with me from the video they made before killing themselves was an interview with this guy who had been castrated; sexual energy was supposed to distract from whatever it was that was more important. He said quite calmly: "I decided to...make the commitment."

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## Niah (Mar 9, 2007)

I believe there's been a recent documentary film about Jonestown, can't wait to see it.


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## Chrislight (Mar 9, 2007)

The word "cult" usually has a negative connotation attached to it - especially nowadays after Jamestown, Heaven's Gate, et al. However, it is in actuality (according to Webster's), a more generic term meaning: 1. formal religious veneration, 2. a religious system and its adherents, 3. faddish devotion or a group of people showing such devotion. 

Unfortunately, there is a human propensity to label something a "cult" in a derogative fashion when it falls outside of one's beliefs or knowledge. Many times this is based on little or no understanding as to what is actually going on with a group. I'm sure you can relate to that Jose, as Scientology is many times referred to as a "cult" in that fashion. Just because something may seem weird to us, doesn't make it invalid.


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## Brian Ralston (Mar 9, 2007)

josejherring @ Fri Mar 09 said:


> This cult controls US federal reserves. Alan Greenspan is a freemason and so are several of the people that hold seats of power on Wall Street.
> 
> Think about it.



There is an interesting history with the freemasons Jose...but it is just that...history.

To say that they currently control the US federal reserve is just retarded and really makes me wonder if you are wearing a tinfoil hat. 

My father is a member and a "knight" in the masonic lodge. Has been for a very long time in his life since he grew up in a small town in West Virginia and they amount to nothing more than a community service organization. A bunch of men (and women now) who vow to live their lives up to a certain standard and serve their communities and common man. The work the masons do today, especially with their childrens hospital is incredible. Please reconsider buying into the conspiracy theories about this organization as it exists today.


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## Chrislight (Mar 9, 2007)

josejherring @ Fri Mar 09 said:


> The freemasons started out as a cult in ancient Egypt. Back then they where called the Magi meaning magic men. These magic men then became the stone masons or Freemasons. Reportedly these Magi could create the most elaborate structures of stone and also could move the stone with the power of thought. These guys are reportedly responsible for building the pyramids. The magi where the Priestly class of ancient Egypt and are also the ones that appointed the Messiah Jesus Christ and the Messiah Zoraster descended from this cult.
> 
> This cult controls US federal reserves. Alan Greenspan is a freemason and so are several of the people that hold seats of power on Wall Street.
> 
> Think about it.



George Washington as well as thirteen other presidents and thirteen signers of the Constitution were Masons. Some cult! Here's some more information on freemasons:


Masons (also known as Freemasons) belong to the oldest and largest fraternal organization in the world. Today, there are more than two million Freemasons in North America. Masons represent virtually every occupation and profession, yet within the Fraternity, all meet as equals. Masons come from diverse political ideologies, yet meet as friends. Masons come from varied religious beliefs and creeds, yet all believe in one God.

Many of North America's early patriots were Freemasons. Thirteen signers of the Constitution and fourteen Presidents of the United States, including George Washington, were Masons. In Canada, the Father of the Confederation, Sir John A. MacDonald, was a Mason, as were other early Canadian and American leaders.

One of the most fascinating aspects of Freemasonry is how so many men, from so many different walks of life, can meet together in peace, always conducting their affairs in harmony and friendship and calling each other "Brother."


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## José Herring (Mar 9, 2007)

Both Brian and Chris just proved my point. 

Ok, history lesson:

In 1913 President Woodrow Wilson a Freemason signed into law the Federal Reserve Act. This act gave power over US money to a privately run bank. The first chairman of the Board was Charles Hamlin a freemason and son of Freemason Hannible Hamlin. Most recently Alan Greenspan and now Ben Bernanke both Freemasons.

I never even said that the Freemasons are a evil suicide cult. But it is a cult with rituals, symbols, secret handshake and a somewhat Zionist belief system, ect. Not that it excludes any religion. If you look up the definition of cult it definitely fits some of the definitions.

Here's more info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry


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## Brian Ralston (Mar 9, 2007)

josejherring @ Fri Mar 09 said:


> Both Brian and Chris just proved my point.
> 
> ....
> 
> If you look up the definition of cult it definitely fits some of the definitions.



SOME? *SOME???* Ah ok...makes sense to me. It definitely is then. :roll: 

Then by your definition or qualifications of "some"...every fraternity or sorority in every college in this country is a cult. Right? 

Or since Tom Cruise and John Travolta and many others are "hollywood" and they are Scientologists...then Scientology controls Hollywood. Right? Heck...that means Jose that you control Hollywood. :roll: Did you ever imagine that?

Let's see if I can find some characteristics of Scientology that may fit your definition of a cult. I only have to come up with some that work...right?

Seriously Jose. Get help. Or pass the joint over...or something.


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## alanb (Mar 9, 2007)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Mar 09 said:


> I don't know, but the Jonestown episode haunted me for months after it happened. That was the weirdest and among the most disturbing things I've heard of in my life.


This being a music-related forum, I just thought I'd note how many of these cults release records, using music as a propaganda/propagation tool... I've found a bunch of these creepy oddities over the years, including: 

Charles Manson's "Lie" LP, http://www.amazon.com/Lie-Love-Terror-Charles-Manson/dp/B000005X1J;

the People's Temple's "He's Able" LP, http://blog.wfmu.org/freeform/2006/02/he_was_able_mp3.html; 

David Koresh's "Voice of Fire" CD, http://www.amazon.com/Voice-Fire-David-Koresh/dp/B000001UL2, and so on.

Although he's more of a "cult figure" than a "cult leader," Jack Kevorkian's album, "A Very Still Life," http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Very_Still_Life is a surprisingly good, very moody, bedroom-y late-night jazz disc. Dr. K. played a mean flute.

Who else... Funkadelic printed that weird manifesto from the Process Church in their "Maggot Brain" LP... 

...one of the songs on the "Breakthrough" album by Pierre Moerlen's Gong contains an excerpt from an L.R.H. poem...

Not to mention Current 93's fascination with the OTO, Psychic TV's _Temple ov Psychick Youth_, and so on...

And so on.

.


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## José Herring (Mar 9, 2007)

Brain your intellect is sharp today. I come at you with historically recorded facts and you come at me with child like hand drawings. :lol: Boy, you're at the top of your game.


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## Brian Ralston (Mar 9, 2007)

josejherring @ Fri Mar 09 said:


> Brain your intellect is sharp today. I come at you with historically recorded facts and you come at me with child like hand drawings. :lol: Boy, you're at the top of your game.



*1.* With the assertions you are making this afternoon (why I decided to challenge you on them I don't know for the life of me)...the tinfoil hat is *very* appropriate. 

*2.* You point to a wikipedia article for your historically recorded "facts"? You know anyone can edit that and add whatever they want right? I could go add a sentence to the front of that freemason article right now and say ("The following is all true because JoseJHerring says so...") and it would probably be up there for a while. I love the section in that wikipedia article you pointed to, which states...



Wikipedia Article on Freemasons said:


> *Religious opposition*
> 
> Freemasonry...has long been the target of conspiracy theories, which see it as an occult and evil power.



*3.* To believe what you are saying this afternoon about cults...specifically in this case the freemasons...*you would also have to believe that...*

a) _all fraternities and sororities in all colleges in the US are cults because some of their traditions and rituals are cult like. _

b) _Scientology runs Hollywood since there are so many scientologists (many of whom are big names) in Hollywood. So...they "control" it..._

c) _ that Scientology is also a cult because it has characteristics of "some" of the features of a cult. Not an evil suicide one mind you...but you know...a good fluffy one. _

d) _that the movie THE SKULLS is not only true, but a good film._ :roll: 

Please Jose...your assertions about the freemasons in this case are just flat out wrong. You could not be more wrong on this if your name were Jose J. Wrong. 

If you would like to be educated on the group, what they stand for today and what they do by meeting with someone who is a life long freemason...I can have that arranged. Afterall, you are "forever learning" right? 

Like I mentioned, I have family members who are longtime masons. But, if you do not want to really know who they are and what they are about...then keep living in your own conspiracy world with whatever garbage you are reading about the subject and have at it. Just don't try to pass off your incorrect conclusions and assertions based off of a few historical references and "data" points as fact when they are clearly wrong.


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## synthetic (Mar 9, 2007)

Very interesting on the Pitchfork gang. Living in a missle silo, that sounds like something out of a bad James Bond movie. Also interting that they would consider that safe -- if the Feds come for you, you close the hatch and... then what? Tunnel to Vegas? 

As for Masons vs Scientologists... um... er... Northern Sounds sucks!


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## synergy543 (Mar 9, 2007)

Just in case you haven't seen it yet, this is a fun one about the Freemasons:

http://disney.go.com/disneyvideos/livea ... ltreasure/


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 9, 2007)

> Unfortunately, there is a human propensity to label something a "cult" in a derogative fashion when it falls outside of one's beliefs or knowledge.



Fair enough. Are you thinking of a specific example?

Because unfortunately there's also a human propensity toward group insanity. All too often people are quite different as individuals and in groups. There are lots and lots of examples, from the Manson group all the way up to the Nazis. People do things in a herd that they would never consider doing on their own.

There are also weak people who need the support of a group led by a charismatic person. They feed off each other, and sometimes things can go very wrong.

I'm sure that with cults as with everything else there are many levels of sophistication. Some cults must be good. The ones we hear about aren't good at all.


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## synergy543 (Mar 9, 2007)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Mar 09 said:


> Fair enough. Are you thinking of a specific example?
> 
> Because unfortunately there's also a human propensity toward group insanity.



Kudos Mr. Batzdorf! You are a very lucid and astute observer!

=o Nick for president


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## Frederick Russ (Mar 9, 2007)

What exactly is a cult really? And who defines what is and isn't one? Taken further, under what authority does one make the judgment call to label a group of people, an organization or movement a cult? 

The word "cult" nowadays seems synonymous with "destructive" or "suicidal". Visions of Heaven's Gate and Jonestown come to mind. The word itself seems to imply these two horrendous examples. 

Not all so-called "cults" are necessarily bad. Whenever people find it necessary to label organizations as "cults" I first try to determine the motive for doing so. Not all motives for labeling organizations using the "cult" word are done for benign reasons. How does one determine that so-called cult-watchers are not themselves unknowingly part of yet another cult - the cult of cult watching? Unfortunately its become the norm to label things as being a cult and those part of them as cult members - negative connotations definitely intact and implied for whatever gain - either to genuinely attempt to warn or the darker side of making the implication in the attempt to control - which in and of itself is very "cultish".

We may all be part of a cult and not even know it. ~o) ~o) ~o)


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## choc0thrax (Mar 9, 2007)

And with that I present the mandatory Nietzsche quote:

"Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule."


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## Chrislight (Mar 9, 2007)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Mar 09 said:


> > Unfortunately, there is a human propensity to label something a "cult" in a derogative fashion when it falls outside of one's beliefs or knowledge.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I absolutely agree with you about the human propensity toward group insanity and the underlying reasons you state for that. In my mind, these types of groups are what truly constitute a "cult". I guess it's a matter of definition. In the broadest sense of the term - "a religious system and its adherents" - most religious groups would fall under that umbrella. For me personally though, I do not consider various spiritual and religious organizations that fall outside the main stream to necessarily be cults. 

I was actually involved in quite a lively discussion of cults on another forum a number of years ago. >8o It turns out there was a wide divergence of opinions on what a cult is. Many wanted to include groups like the Unification Church, Hare Krishnas, Scientology and other spiritual organizations in their definitions and were quite intolerant in their statements. There has been a big anti-cult movement in this country since the sixties and seventies. Many of these "cult-watchers" and counter-cult organizations are operated by narrow-minded individuals who oppose new religious and spiritual movements primarily because they go against their own personal beliefs. They speak of these movements in a very derogatory way but many times appear to have very little understanding as to the beliefs of the organizations. 

I personally have always been tolerant of others beliefs and feel that various religious and spiritual organizations exist because there is a need for them. I have never understood those who would try to discredit someone elses beliefs or try and change their way of viewing things (with the exception, of course, of the Jamestown type groups). Nor why they feel compelled to put down others for what they believe. Insecurity? To me, if you are secure in your beliefs, there is no need for that type of behavior. Human nature? If so, it definitely has its ugly side...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 9, 2007)

> I do not consider various spiritual and religious organizations that fall outside the main stream to necessarily be cults.



Either do I. But again, I have to ask what not-cults you and Freddie are talking about.

*Then* I can slag them without knowing the first thing about them. o-[][]-o o=< >8o


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 9, 2007)

> Nick for president



Hahahahahaha

I wasn't born in this country. Sorry!.


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## Chrislight (Mar 9, 2007)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Mar 09 said:


> > I do not consider various spiritual and religious organizations that fall outside the main stream to necessarily be cults.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



:lol: 

As I was trying to say, I personally consider the suicide/destructive groups to be "cults", whereas groups like the Masons, Scientology, Hare Krishnas, and the wide variety of non-main stream religious and spiritual organizations to be just that - organizations and belief systems. I would not classify them as cults. Just my opinion. ~o)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 9, 2007)

I don't know much about Scientology, other than that neither Jose, Chick Corea, or John Travolta seem all that bizarre. Well, Jose is, but the other two...

As to Hare Krishna, the followers of it lose a lot of their identity as far as I can see - they seem like zombies. A guy I know was Hare Krishna for a while, and while he's a marginal character to begin with, he was totally spaced out and could only recite a load of ridiculous crap with an ethereal look at the time. It was just silly stuff - like "how can you be of a higher consciousness and eat meat?"

I'm half vegetarian, by the way.

Is it a cult? It's a relatively small group of people who dress up in funny clothes and run around annoying me by pounding in-your-face percussion. Whatever you call it, for our western society it's very strange. Whether it fills a need is not for me to say. I have no idea what they believe in; all I know is that I don't have time for that kind of shizzle. And that the people who gravitate to that are not lawyers, entertainment people, and plastic surgeons - they're people who hit a low point, probably an extended one.

Of course we're all much closer to that low point than we care to think, but I know that joining the Hare Krishnas wouldn't be my first impulse if I were totally down and out. Sorry if I'm being judgemental, but just because something is a belief doesn't mean it's something you have to respect. I respect their right to hold it, but I also think anything that makes you behave that way is weird.

Okay, now tell me why I'm closed-minded, prejudiced, and all that.


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## Frederick Russ (Mar 10, 2007)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Mar 10 said:


> Okay, now tell me why I'm closed-minded, prejudiced, and all that.



There's a cult for that too. :wink:


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## Chrislight (Mar 10, 2007)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Mar 10 said:


> Sorry if I'm being judgemental, but just because something is a belief doesn't mean it's something you have to respect. I respect their right to hold it, but I also think anything that makes you behave that way is weird.



Exactly! :D We don't have to respect or agree with someone's belief system, just their right to believe whatever they want to believe. Obviously there is something that drew them to whatever group or belief system they are connected with that appears to be fulfilling some sort of need within them - albeit it may just be a temporary one. And hopefully is in some cases! :shock: 



Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Mar 10 said:


> Okay, now tell me why I'm closed-minded, prejudiced, and all that.





Frederick Russ @ Sat Mar 10 said:


> There's a cult for that too. :wink:



:lol:


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## Mahal (Mar 10, 2007)

BTW: Mozart was a freemason


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 10, 2007)

> There's a cult for that too.



I didn't see the link - where do I sign up?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 10, 2007)

This wouldn't be the Sactus Angelis cult by any chance, would it?


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## Chrislight (Mar 10, 2007)

Mahal @ Sat Mar 10 said:


> BTW: Mozart was a freemason



That got my curiosity up to see what other famous Masons there are. I found this site listing Famous Masons (quite an eclectic mix!):

http://www.masonicinfo.com/famous.htm

Here's a few involved with music:

Roy Acuff, Eddie Arnold, Edward Bagley, Count Basie, Irving Berlin, Roy Clark, Nat King Cole, Duke Ellington, Frederick the Great (King of Prussia and also a music composer), Lionel Hampton, Burl Ives, Al Jolson, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, John Philip Sousa, Mel Tillis

Some other famous Masons:

Bud Abbott (Abbott and Costello), Buzz Aldrin, John Jacob Astor, Gene Autry, Hugo Black, Mel Blanc, Daniel Boone, Ernest Borgnine, Omar Bradley, Luther Burbank, Admiral Richard Byrd, Walter P. Chrysler (founder of Chrysler Corp.), Samuel L. Clemens (Mark Twain), Ty Cobb, William (Buffalo Bill) Cody, Davy Crockett, Cecil B. DeMille, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Douglas Fairbanks, W.C. Fields, Gerald Ford, Glenn Ford, Henry Ford, Benjamin Franklin, Robert Fulton, Clark Gable, James Garfield, Arthur Godfrey, Barry Goldwater, David Goodnow, Gus Grissom, John Hancock, Patrick Henry, J. Edgar Hoover, Harry Houdini, Sam Houston, Hubert Humphrey, Andrew Jackson, Rev. Jesse Jackson, Andrew Johnson, Rudyard Kipling, Charles Lindbergh, Douglas MacArthur, George C. Marshall, Dr. Charles Mayo (Mayo Clinic), Andrew Mellon, Dr. Karl Menninger, James Monroe, Audie Murphy, Rev. Norman Vincent Peale, Bronson Pinchot, Paul Revere, Ringley Brothers (all seven), Sugar Ray Robinson, Will Rogers, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Theodore Roosevelt, Tele Savalas, Walter Schirra, Peter Sellers, Joseph Smith (founder of Mormons), William Taft, Danny Thomas, Lowell Thomas, Strom Thurston, Mel Tillis, Harry S. Truman, Chief Justice Earl Warren, Lawrence Douglass Wilder, Ed Winn, Andrew Young, Florenz Zigfeld (Ziegfeld's Follies)


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## Mike Greene (Mar 10, 2007)

Brian Ralston @ Fri Mar 09 said:


> Or since Tom Cruise and John Travolta and many others are "hollywood" and they are Scientologists...then Scientology controls Hollywood. Right?


Scientologists control Hollywood? But I thought the _Jews_ controlled Hollywood!!!

Damn! I married the wrong woman!


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## Chrislight (Mar 10, 2007)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Mar 10 said:


> As to Hare Krishna, the followers of it lose a lot of their identity as far as I can see - they seem like zombies. A guy I know was Hare Krishna for a while, and while he's a marginal character to begin with, he was totally spaced out and could only recite a load of ridiculous crap with an ethereal look at the time. It was just silly stuff - like "how can you be of a higher consciousness and eat meat?"
> 
> I'm half vegetarian, by the way.
> 
> Is it a cult? It's a relatively small group of people who dress up in funny clothes and run around annoying me by pounding in-your-face percussion. Whatever you call it, for our western society it's very strange. Whether it fills a need is not for me to say. I have no idea what they believe in; all I know is that I don't have time for that kind of shizzle. And that the people who gravitate to that are not lawyers, entertainment people, and plastic surgeons - they're people who hit a low point, probably an extended one.



Well, not quite.  We have probably all run into Hare Krishna members who were a little too overt and in your face or maybe seemed to be spaced out. I think during that period of time, that group did attract some, well... different people. :D I remember in the sixties they seemingly were on every other corner and at the airport. They however, do not represent the entire group. As for entertainment people not gravitating there, George Harrison (Beatle =o ) became a Krishna devotee in the 70's and remained one until his death:

http://hinduism.about.com/library/weekly/aa120501a.htm


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 10, 2007)

Same name, totally different thing.

You get that with all religions. There are Christian cults.


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## Chrislight (Mar 10, 2007)

I will have to admit, I was somewhat put off by the Hare Krishnas I ran into in the sixties. However, years later while living in California, I lived next to a couple who were involved with that group and there  all 27.97 0.01 8.77 0.87 0.00 62.39
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09:20:01 all 26.76 0.01 8.71 0.66 0.00 63.87
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09:30:01 all 20.81 0.00 8.36 0.78 0.00 70.04
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09:40:01 1 27.03 0.00 9.50 0.62 0.00 62.85
09:40:01 2 21.77 0.01 8.85 0.59 0.00 68.78
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09:50:01 all 27.54 0.01 9.85 0.91 0.00 61.69
09:50:01 0 25.46 0.00 9.62 0.92 0.00 64.00
09:50:01 1 29.12 0.00 10.47 0.81 0.00 59.60
09:50:01 2 24.70 0.01 8.78 1.04 0.00 65.47
09:50:01 3 30.89 0.03 10.52 0.88 0.00 57.68
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10:10:01 2 20.07 0.00 7.75 0.82 0.00 71.35
10:10:01 3 25.65 0.00 9.08 0.52 0.00 64.76
10:20:01 all 18.62 2.60 7.71 1.12 0.00 69.96
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10:20:01 2 15.66 2.69 7.39 1.88 0.00 72.38
10:20:01 3 19.50 2.53 7.90 0.94 0.00 69.13
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10:30:01 0 13.61 0.01 5.10 0.48 0.00 80.80
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10:30:01 2 13.84 0.00 5.53 0.52 0.00 80.11
10:30:01 3 18.47 0.00 6.43 0.83 0.00 74.27
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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 10, 2007)

> People are sometimes fearful of the unfamiliar. Trying to make sense out of things they don't understand, they sometimes conveniently label them and put them into boxes. One of those boxes happens to be the cult box. Because people are uninformed or misinformed, the Krishna consciousness movement sometimes erroneously ends up in such a box.




And sometimes people aren't at all fearful of the unfamiliar, they're put off by exactly the people we're talking about - in the mid-'90s, by the way, not the hippie era (unless you're in Eugene, OR  ) - pounding those drums and dancing around the streets. At least on the surface those people would seem to fit squarely into the cult box.

Apparently there are other Harry Krishna peeps who aren't cultiish. But let's back off on the fear and box stuff, okay Harry? We prejudiced people aren't uninformed and haven't been misinformed - we formed our opinions from seeing blatant cult members. And we both know that if that weren't the case you wouldn't even have that defensive stuff on your site.

:roll:


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## José Herring (Mar 12, 2007)

Brian Ralston @ Fri Mar 09 said:


> If you would like to be educated on the group, what they stand for today and what they do by meeting with someone who is a life long freemason...I can have that arranged. Afterall, you are "forever learning" right?



I'm always open to education. As I'm always open to change my opinion. Quite frankly I think that calling somebody crazy because they think something different than you to be rather rude and unproductive to education.

Personally, I have nothing against the Freemasons having know one in my life. He seemed fine. I had lunch with him every Friday for many years. He had many similar views as you have expressed. I'm fine with that. He did hold a seat on the New York Stock exchange and he did say that the Freemasons were a society not allowing women to be equal members. He also mentioned that there was a secret handshake and other rituals that he didn't get into. Maybe he was all wrong or just full of shit. I don't know.

All that put aside though. I don't have anything against the group at all. I was shocked to find that you got so upset because my original post was only intended to point out that groups that started out as cults eventually became well know and respected institutions. All religions where thought of as cults when they first started. All where persecuted by the majority public. Some survived that and converted many to their way of thinking. All major religions of the world followed that path. Buddhism, Christianity, Juddeism, Scientology, Taoist, Llamas, ect.... all of them have shared their form of public persecution for daring to give man the hope of spiritual freedom and knowledge of a more spiritual path. Perhaps the Stonemasons have a similar thing happening to them. I'll concede that that could be possible.

best,

Jose


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## Brian Ralston (Mar 12, 2007)

josejherring @ Mon Mar 12 said:


> I'm always open to education. As I'm always open to change my opinion. Quite frankly I think that calling somebody crazy because they think something different than you to be rather rude and unproductive to education.



I never called you crazy. The word did not appear in any of my posts. Though, that is what you chose to read it as. I did (with a large amount of sarcasm and humor) point out the fact that your assertions and conclusions about the masons were flat out wrong. 


josejherring @ Mon Mar 12 said:


> I was shocked to find that you got so upset because my original post was only...



Your original post ended with the statement "think about it." Which followed an absurd conspiracy theory conclusion making negative accusations and insinuations about a group that was baseless and wrong. You also stated as "fact" that the masons "control" the stock market. Really Jose...do you honestly believe that? 

I simply called you on it and politely asked you to reconsider your conclusions about the freemasons at the end of my first response. Then in your follow-up post, you just had to be right as if you know a big secret that nobody knows and we needed to be educated on by you. You started your response with "Brian and Chris just proved my point...A History lesson...blah..blah..blah...". We proved nothing of your point and frankly, from that point on as far as I was concerned, the gauntlet was thrown and I was not going to pull any punches or sarcastic rants with your statements on the subject at hand. 

You have yet to address my contentions that if you believe what you have stated as "Fact" about the masons...then you would also have to believe the key points I challenged you with. But, I really don't care if you do address them at this point frankley. 

It is not really about the freemasons Jose. It is about your stating *opinions* and wrong conclusions that you alone have made and representing them as "facts" to a world wide reaching discussion forum, some members of whom have little or no knowledge about a U.S. group like the masons. A group that consists of hard working, great individuals who put serving their community first. Look at the Shriner's Children's Hospital. Look at the all of the philanthropic activities that they do and tell me that they are a "cult" who controls the stock market in some conspiracy for power against the common man. 

But no...no mention in your argument of any of their characteristics that would show them in a favorable light. Only "some" of the characteristics that might fit some wikipedia description of a cult. You deliberately left out the parts that directly contradicted your attempted description of the group as a whole. That in my opinion was very disingenuous, and the great individuals who are members of the masons frankley deserve more than that for all the great work they do. 

It is all as simple as that. 

Cheers!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 12, 2007)

"groups that started out as cults eventually became well know and respected institutions. All religions where thought of as cults when they first started. All where persecuted by the majority public."

Is that process still going on? My sense is that when it comes to religions, there's nothing new under the sun; there are many ways of looking at the same thing, or many facets to it, but I think they're all essentially about all the same things when it comes down to it. The main differences are that some religions make more sense for some cultures than others and that different ones "speak" to different people. Whatever clubs people join is a separate thing - I'm talking about the essence of all the world's great religions (and for 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
14:30:01 lo 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
14:30:01 eth0 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
14:40:01 lo 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00


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## midphase (Mar 13, 2007)

On the plus side....I think it would be kinda cool to live and have a studio in an abandoned missile silo!


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## kid-surf (Mar 13, 2007)

Quick story about CULTS.

So a few years ago I see this story on Dateline, or whatever it was. Was a story about a cult called "The Garbage Eaters" (aka The Brethren). Well, apparently they stalk college kids on campus and try to convert them, drawing them away from friends and family to become nomads who eat out of garbage bins. (sounds fun, huh!)

Ok, so there's this "main dude", right. Many families were trying to get in contact with this dude to find out where the F' their children were.

Ok, so this is like days after the show. I see "the dude" casually strolling down the street. I'm like, "no friggn way, that can't be the dude". I flip a bitch. No, it's definitely him. He hops on a bus. I'm late for a meeting so I let him slip away. Later I'm like "fuck, maybe I should have followed the bus... maybe that was morally wrong of me to make my meeting more important. If my kid was missing I'd want someone to track his ass".

That night I tell my wife I spotted the dude from the Dateline show. She's like "sure you did.. it's probably just a dude that _looks_ like the dude". I'm like "no, it was him, I'm sure of it...". "Oh well...", I think...

So I find a website set up by a family looking for their kid. I tell them I'm I've seen the "leader" in LA. They say "oh... thanks". Probably thinking "sure you did...".

Days later I'm in a different part of town. (We all know how small LA is, right). I friggn see the dude _again_. Only this time I'm with my wife. I'm like "THAT'S THE DUDE... right there!". She's like "it *is* the dude!!!". I flip a bitch. I'm now trailing him. He ducks into a mechanics shop. I'm like "were we made?". So I park. I sit. Nothing. Finally I get out and see what's up. He's gone. Split out the back? They don't know...

Now I'm positive it's "the dude". 

I head home and go to the online site of the family. I say, "I saw the guy _again_. I promise you, It's THE DUDE!". They say, "thanks, we're flying out!"


Never heard what happened... Hopefully they found their kid.


I believe in cults.


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## midphase (Mar 13, 2007)

In that case, here's is a coded message that only EIS cult members will understand:

"E5P5E2E1SVLCP8to7to-7E4"


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## midphase (Mar 14, 2007)

Ok, I'm starting to get sucked into this whole EJ thing. Today he posted some video about his investigation, and even though there are no major revelations, the guy appears to be pretty serious about it!

Here is a link directly to the video:

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea ... 22525643af

Any thoughts?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 14, 2007)

Kays, I clicked on that link and your first one and have no fricking idea what on earth this guy is talking about!

Evidently he's an unemployed journalist who's found a cult - and if he doesn't even understand that everything you write is a bunch of words that mean nothing until you explain what you're talking about, I can see why he's unemployed. It's like starting "Happy Birthday" with the third and fourth bar - in fact it's like only singing those two bars (with pickup), because he doesn't go anywhere either.

That video shows a guy stealing garbage. And the point is...?


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## alanb (Mar 14, 2007)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Mar 14 said:


> That video shows a guy stealing garbage. And the point is...?


The point is that he has an immeasurably indulgent (if somewhat math-challenged) girlfriend. With that kind of support, *anything* can be achieved. 

I wonder how their shredded document reconstruction project is coming along... remember that moment when they almost lost that tiny scrap with the number on it? _[Whew!]_ High anxiety...

I have no idea whether he is actually on to something... but I do think that folks would take him more seriously, in the long run, if he withheld public comment until he actually had something concrete to present...


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## Scott Cairns (Mar 16, 2007)

Forgive my ignorance, but can someone tell me what Jonestown was all about? Or maybe I should just google it,.....


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## midphase (Mar 16, 2007)

If anyone here watches the History Channel, check your listings because they're running this well produced documentary on the Jonestown Massacre complete with re-enactments mixed in with actual footage and interviews from the survivors.

Very interesting indeed.

On the subject of the guy searching through garbage Nick....that footage tells me that the guy is pretty serious about it. I'm curious to see what it is that him and his mathematically-challenged girlfriend come up with over the next few weeks. 

What if we're witnessing another potential Jonestown or Heaven's Gate in the making?

Would any of us be willing to stop it from happening? Stop history from repeating itself? That is indeed the moral and ethical question that I've been asking myself as I edge ever closer to sending this EJ guy an e-mail and letting him know that I want to help somehow.

Nick...how would you feel if a couple of months from now you are watching TV and hear about this cult who lived in a missile silo who just committed mass suicide? Will you then feel guilty for not having tried to help when you had an opportunity?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 16, 2007)

My problem is that I have no idea what he's even saying. There's a cult. I got that from you. But all I see is a FAQ that starts in the middle. The idea of poking around that website for hours just to try and piece his story together is not appealing.

He needs an explanation that says, "Hi, I'm blablabla. I've stumbled upon this cult, and this, this, and this is what I see going on. The reason you should give a $#!+ is that blablabla. Please read blablabla for more of what I've seen that is of interest."

In order to get just that much you'd have to poke around several uninviting dung heaps and watch videos of him picking up garbage to show he's serious.


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## midphase (Mar 30, 2007)

Well, apparently there are some new developments on this whole California pitchfork cult. The guy just posted a video where he's supposedly interviewing one of the cult members. I'm not sure what to think about all of this, but I do think that it seems like an awful lot of work to go through if this guy is just posting a prank.

Guys, take a look at it and see for yourselves, I'm interested in knowing what you all make out of this now that there is some more proof in the pudding!

Here's a link to the video:

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea ... 63e2fcb786


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## José Herring (Mar 30, 2007)

Dunno,

Seems like a bit of a hoax. That pitchfork tatoo looks like it's not dry and looks like it was drawn in by a flat end magic marker. It even has blotches.

Seems like a bunch of 20 somethings with not much to do in life trying to get a Blair Witch thing going. I can almost predict the plot. I bet next he'll start to be pursued by one of them. He'll wake up with pitch forks in his front yard.

Jose


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## choc0thrax (Mar 30, 2007)

I've seen people go through more trouble making hoaxes than this. These days you have a lot of people wanting to become internet stars. The guy who came up with John Titor must have gone through a lot of trouble to make his hoax.


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