# My experience so far with expansions for Falcon and PhasePlant



## cedricm (Dec 4, 2021)

Falcon expansions cost $39 and include about 100-130 presets.
PhasePlant content banks cost $29 and include about 50 presets.

While I love EDM, I'm not really into dubstep/trance/techno and the like, so I mostly purchased cinematic-themed libraries so far.

*PhasePlant*
What I like about PhasePlant presets, is that they have a description, giving advice on how to use them: try chords, play this register, use the modwhell, ...
This is a feature I'd like UVI to copy, since for Falcon, there's only an overall Expansion description.

I purchased Animus, Suspension, Tremor
I'm deeply disappointed. Many presets are not great to bad, I don't think there's much value.

Of the three, Animus by Tom Wolfe is by far the best one, and the only one I can recommend.
It offers great textures and sequences.

*Falcon*
In my opinion, Falcon expansions are way better value than Kilohearts content banks. They cost $10 more, but they offer at least 2x the amount of presets of the content banks, and the quality is way, way better.

I got Cinematic Shades, Lofi Dreams, Plurality and Subculture Orchestra.

Cinematic shades is nothing short of fantastic, and there are great presets in all its categories (Atmosphere, Basses, Cinematics, Melodics, Pads, Sequences, Textures).

LoFi Dreams is ok, and it's probably great for people into this genre.
I'm underwhelmed by bass presets in general. LoFi has a few good ones.
Its "Acoustic Pianos" are fine for this genre.
IMO, Leads and Pads could be better.

Plurality
I have very mixed feelings about Plurality.
Simon Stockhausen is a genius and a brainy musician, and it shows.
What I love is that there are many presets that are fantastic soundscapes, textures.
And indeed, it is sold as a cinematic library. But there's very little that can be "played" (chords, etc).

On the opposite, there are preset such as Flutes / Glass Harps and so on.
There are paradoxical. They're presets that can't be instantly used in my opinion.
They're "brainy presets". To take advantage of them, one really has to take the time and experiment.
If you watch Simon's videos on his YouTube channel, he's often playing with the same sound for a few minutes, and it's both interesting and beautiful. I think that's how some of these presets are intended to be used.
Others remind of samples library and articulations that have to be experimented with.

Subculture
Subculture is very interesting.
First listening was a little disappointing: I created a "preset listener" project with very long notes, very short notes, chords, passage for pluck sounds and the like.
But subculture is intended to be used in a very specific and limited tone register.
So I'll have to listen again, taking its specificity into account.

If you have expansion / preset recommendations, or advice on how to use a certain preset, or pieces that highlight their qualities, don't hesitate to share them.

If you disagree with me and think I've been unfair, by all means do tell, if possible, with examples.


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## doctoremmet (Dec 4, 2021)

cedricm said:


> But there's very little that can be "played" (chords, etc).


The trick (and the true purpose) is to automate the parameters (many of them) in your DAW. That’s how Simon arrives at his great ambient soundscapes with just one patch 

So they *need* to be played, but not in the way you’d expect, i.e. not by a piano player.


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## cedricm (Dec 4, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> The trick (and the true purpose) is to automate the parameters (many of them) in your DAW. That’s how Simon arrives at his great ambient soundscapes with just one patch
> 
> So they *need* to be played, but not in the way you’d expect, i.e. not by a piano player.


That's absolutely right.
Though some presets are, in my opinion, bad no matter the modwheel or the macros playing. Or I simply couldn't make them work for me.


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## doctoremmet (Dec 4, 2021)

I’ll add that I mostly purchase presets as a means of learning patching ideas from the masters. People like @Whywhy, @Empty Vessel, @tomwolfe, @Sound Author et al, who know their sounddesign tools inside out, and come in with an actual plan and view to what they set out to achieve with a certain soundset. That’s a bunch of fancy words for saying I like to steal their ideas.

Simon Stockhausen always delivers a cool PDF document when you buy his sounds over at www.patchpool.net - with the kind of description that really helps one grasp a patch, what it is intended to do and a little bit of how it was made. Howard Scarr’s Bazille Cookbook is another prime example of a very cool and detailed set of preset sound descriptions.


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## doctoremmet (Dec 4, 2021)

Examples of great patch documentation.


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## cedricm (Dec 4, 2021)

Indeed, learning from the expansions a big part of the reason I purchased them.

While UVI does offer nice documentations, they don't go into preset details. It would be great if Simon sent them patch documentation for the extensions he made for Falcon, to be included in an updated documentation.


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## doctoremmet (Dec 4, 2021)

Hopeful comments about ‘future updates’ of VIs and patches always make me giggle a little bit. Maybe I’m just an old cynic. But yes, that would be cool


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## Bee_Abney (Dec 4, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> The trick (and the true purpose) is to automate the parameters (many of them) in your DAW. That’s how Simon arrives at his great ambient soundscapes with just one patch
> 
> So they *need* to be played, but not in the way you’d expect, i.e. not by a piano player.


I agree, yet I prefer to record a performance, modifying the parameters in real time. It works for me.


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## Bee_Abney (Dec 4, 2021)

cedricm said:


> Falcon expansions cost $39 and include about 100-130 presets.
> PhasePlant content banks cost $29 and include about 50 presets.
> 
> While I love EDM, I'm not really into dubstep/trance/techno and the like, so I mostly purchased cinematic-themed libraries so far.
> ...


I'm not sure what you meant in calling Subculture Orchestral niche, or as having a limited tonal register. It's on the bass side of things, but I find these patches extremely versatile in terms of mood and genre. 

I recommend looking into some non-Uvi, third-party soundware for Falcon. There may not be a lot compared to some synths, but there are some amazing offerings. 

Leap Into The Void has a good orchestral-based one, if you are interested in that. Triple Spiral Audio's Empty Fields is gorgeous.


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## Pier (Dec 4, 2021)

cedricm said:


> I purchased Animus, Suspension, Tremor
> I'm deeply disappointed. Many presets are not great to bad, I don't think there's much value.
> 
> Of the three, Animus by Tom Wolfe is by far the best one, and the only one I can recommend.
> It offers great textures and sequences.


I have the KiloHearts subscription which includes all the official libraries for PhasePlant. For $10 it's a great way to test the product fully.

I quickly skimmed the three libraries you mentioned and didn't find them amazing either. I also agree the value is not great. 50 presets for $30 seems quite expensive.

I also skimmed the other included libraries and I actually found more stuff I liked in the factory presets. Like some of the pads by emptyvessel.


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## doctoremmet (Dec 5, 2021)

@Empty Vessel did some of the presets? Damn, even more reasons to get Phase Plant hehe


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## Macrawn (Dec 5, 2021)

The Falcon preset packs are way better than the ones you get from Kilohearts. 

Some of those Kilohearts ones are by youtube dudes who have a nice youtube presence but honestly, are not that skilled in sound design except Dan Gulch but I don't like Psi Trance. At least that's the explanation I'm making up for the garbage preset packs Phaseplant has. The other problem with the Phaseplant presets is that they are generally just for edm type stuff. 

So it's a huge mistake for developers to pick up youtube people who have no actual commercial success outside of making how to videos as their foundation for creative work. They make really great mediocre stuff. 

The presets are so bad in Phaseplant it does make me question how versatile it really is. Truth is most of my presets that I've made have an industrial synthetic feel that often doesn't fit the music I compose. It's a harsh sounding synth. I'm not sure if it's because I don't have any good examples to learn from or that it's they way the synth is. I'm leaning toward it's the synth. 

The Falcon 2 presets are amazing though. Even the ones that are more for electronic are like 10x better than the Phaseplant ones. And they are made not by youtube hacks who don't really understand the instrument or sound design. They are made by people who either understand the instrument at a very deep level or have a real world track record for sound design or they are made in house and must be seriously vetted at a high level. Those presets falcon has get so much out of the instrument. The Voklm pack is one of my favorites because of how unique it is. 

I don't have the Tom Wolf packs from Phaseplant but I'm not surprised if people find them better than everything Phaseplant has put forward because he's not some youtube dude they found. He's a well recognized sound designer. 

It's a long rant but if you are looking to recruit talent on youtube, think about what the talent really is. It's making entertaining videos, so those people are great to recruit for walk through videos and things like that. They are professional video makers not musicians in most cases, though there are a few who went and had success first in their field before going youtube, that's a little different and more the exception. 

The only Falcon pack I'm a little disappointed with that I own was the subculture orchestral. I thought I'd love it, but I like the original subculture a lot more.


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## cedricm (Dec 5, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> I've got Inner Dimensions, Lo-fi Dreams, and Voklm. Inner dimensions has some great sounds, but they're all trapped behind sequences that don't have an off switch on the info label. I have to go and deep dive the tree and find them and turn them off.
> 
> Lo fi dreams. It's a very specific genre. Beautiful patches, but not something I think I will use too often.
> 
> ...


Volkm is on my radar, as well as other Falcon 2 preset packs, just waiting for the next sale.

Indeed, creating one's own patch is extremely rewarding.

Good patches from extensions are a major source of knowledge and ideas for one's own patch building, but also inspiration for music, sometimes a solution to writer's block.


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## Pier (Dec 5, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> @Empty Vessel did some of the presets? Damn, even more reasons to get Phase Plant hehe


What's holding you up?


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## Pier (Dec 5, 2021)

Macrawn said:


> The Falcon preset packs are way better than the ones you get from Kilohearts.


Personally I don't think it's an issue with the synth itself, but rather that most PhasePlant presets have way too many effects.

Honestly, I'm not sure if it's just a natural tendency because it's so damn fun to use effects in PhasePlant, or maybe KiloHearts just insisted that's what they wanted to showcase.

BTW @Empty Vessel is not some random youtuber 

I love how PhasePlant sounds, but I find there are some effects that do have a plastic digital quality to them. Like the Disperser which seems very popular in the presets.


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## doctoremmet (Dec 5, 2021)

Pier said:


> What's holding you up?


Time. Family. And those types of annoying factors.


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## gamma-ut (Dec 5, 2021)

Pier said:


> Honestly, I'm not sure if it's just a natural tendency because it's so damn fun to use effects in PhasePlant, or maybe KiloHearts just insisted that's what they wanted to showcase.


It's partly design and partly marketing I think. One of the main selling points for PP lies in the multiband/multichannel FX, so there is a natural temptation to stack them up. It is amusing to go through some of them turning half the effects off to find they either make little tangible difference or actually improve the sounds.

You also get the same vicious/virtuous circle effect you get with Serum and, now, Vital. Serum got a rep for being good at brostep because it does the sandpaper-your-ears sound or the uncanny-valley acoustics of future bass in a fairly clean way, which seems to be a requirement for current pop styles (and will probably go out of fashion real fast at some point in the future). So, people buy the synth for that and choose presets that bolster that image so it seems all you've got are those brostep and bass music presets. And what you don't get are a lot of very playable presets but a whole lot of one-finger wubwub presets.

With Phase Plant this also isn't helped by a lack of standard MIDI CC input lanes: basically modwheel, velocity, pressure and er....that's it. That doesn't really lend itself to more organic sounds, which further pushes it into the territory of heavy-LFO presets that are kinda impressive in short bursts but aren't that useful as instruments. Falcon OTOH is very much geared up for creating more complete instruments. And Serum is more flexible than PP when it comes to MIDI control.


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## Macrawn (Dec 5, 2021)

Pier said:


> Personally I don't think it's an issue with the synth itself, but rather that most PhasePlant presets have way too many effects.
> 
> Honestly, I'm not sure if it's just a natural tendency because it's so damn fun to use effects in PhasePlant, or maybe KiloHearts just insisted that's what they wanted to showcase.
> 
> ...


You are making a good point. I was over generalizing about the youtubers. 

I think you are right about the effects. I'm looking down at my feet right now as I got a little carried away with the disperser on some of my own presets. 

I don't own the wolf pack but my favorite one that I own is the pack called Tremor by Arovane. He's getting the sounds I want to make.


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## Pier (Dec 5, 2021)

gamma-ut said:


> With Phase Plant this also isn't helped by a lack of standard MIDI CC input lanes: basically modwheel, velocity, pressure and er....that's it. That doesn't really lend itself to more organic sounds, which further pushes it into the territory of heavy-LFO presets that are kinda impressive in short bursts but aren't that useful as instruments. Falcon OTOH is very much geared up for creating more complete instruments. And Serum is more flexible than PP when it comes to MIDI control.


The idea is that instead of using Midi CCs you'd use the macros for that.

You can right click on the macro knob, and then midi learn with any CC you'd like.






So now you can browse the presets and tweak the macros much like you'd tweak the XY performance things in Zebra, but without having to ever leave the preset browser. Even use the mouse if one prefers that.

In my case, since I'm using Bitwig, these macros are automatically mapped to my knobs.






I know Ableton Live has a similar feature. I wrote this mini tutorial on how to set it up.

Not sure about Cubase and Logic, but I think Studio One has a similar feature called macros.



Channel Editor


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## Bee_Abney (Dec 5, 2021)

Pier said:


> The idea is that instead of using Midi CCs you'd use the macros for that.
> 
> You can right click on the macro knob, and then midi learn with any CC you'd like.
> 
> ...


Studio One does indeed.


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## emptyvessel (Dec 5, 2021)

cedricm said:


> Falcon expansions cost $39 and include about 100-130 presets.
> PhasePlant content banks cost $29 and include about 50 presets.
> 
> While I love EDM, I'm not really into dubstep/trance/techno and the like, so I mostly purchased cinematic-themed libraries so far.
> ...


I'm a bit gutted you were that disappointed with Suspension, Cedric. 
I have a 32 preset pack available for Phase Plant in my own store that is more my usual style, which of course may not be a fit for you anyway, the pads I feel are pretty organic and evolving and should be very usable. If you'd like to flick me a message I can sort you a d/l link for the pack, I'd be interested in your thoughts. I think PhasePlant is a very versatile synth. Personally I find it easier to get quickly to the kinds of results I want with Falcon and Pigments, especially wrt the effects, but this isn't a reflection of the overall capability of PhasePlant, just timbral/character preferences.

In terms of individual patch descriptions - it is a possibility in Falcon btw if the sound designer chooses to use it. In the graphical UI "Info" page there is a small i in the top right of the interface, this opens a text window where the sound designer is able to type what they like:





It's limited in that you can't see it until you open the preset but at least there is some way for the sound designer to communicate some thoughts and background about the preset if they choose.


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## gamma-ut (Dec 5, 2021)

Pier said:


> The idea is that instead of using Midi CCs you'd use the macros for that.


Frankly, that illustrates my core point. This setup is fine if you're using a single MIDI controller surface with discrete knobs. It's very much an setup that's aimed at self-contained, self-modulating presets where the performer is tweaking knobs. If you're using a variety of controllers, say a Linnstrument or Touché, TEC breath controller or whatever, move-a-knob MIDI learn is a royal PITA because getting it to learn the right CC is a bit of a crapshoot. I actually have a Novation SL set up with the common expression controllers on a row of knobs so I can send a clean MIDI signal for this kind of learning. Personally, I'd rather not and though that is a personal gripe I think it speaks to the design priorities of different synths and why they end up with the kinds of preset libraries they do.

Also, bizarrely, MIDI learn isn't even mentioned in the PP manual (or if it is I can't find it) - they seem to assume that host automation is what people will use for the macros.

I also just remembered that, unless I'm doing something wrong, the MIDI bindings aren't saved with the preset.


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## cedricm (Dec 5, 2021)

Empty Vessel said:


> I'm a bit gutted you were that disappointed with Suspension, Cedric.
> I have a 32 preset pack available for Phase Plant in my own store that is more my usual style, which of course may not be a fit for you anyway, the pads I feel are pretty organic and evolving and should be very usable. If you'd like to flick me a message I can sort you a d/l link for the pack, I'd be interested in your thoughts. I think PhasePlant is a very versatile synth. Personally I find it easier to get quickly to the kinds of results I want with Falcon and Pigments, especially wrt the effects, but this isn't a reflection of the overall capability of PhasePlant, just timbral/character preferences.
> 
> In terms of individual patch descriptions - it is a possibility in Falcon btw if the sound designer chooses to use it. In the graphical UI "Info" page there is a small i in the top right of the interface, this opens a text window where the sound designer is able to type what they like:
> ...


Hi Empty Vessel,

I PMed you re:the 32-preset pack.

Since you took time to answer this thread in a constructive way, the least I can do is 
give Suspension another try tomorrow.


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## emptyvessel (Dec 5, 2021)

cedricm said:


> Hi Empty Vessel,
> 
> I PMed you re:the 32-preset pack.
> 
> ...


tbh I haven't listened to those Suspension patches for quite a while, I may revisit them myself and see how I feel. I felt at the time that my good friend Uwe/Arovane had done a good job on Tremor too so I was surprised to read you weren't keen on that either.

Looking forward to your feedback anyway. Constructive criticism is *always* welcome


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## Pier (Dec 5, 2021)

gamma-ut said:


> I also just remembered that, unless I'm doing something wrong, the MIDI bindings aren't saved with the preset.


AFAIK the MIDI bindings are saved globally, not per preset.


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## Pier (Dec 5, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> Both left me really unsatisfied, and I didn't buy either. They both sound just like Vital, which in turn sounds just like Serum. It's that cold digital wavetable sound.


I've never demoed Synthmaster or Serum, but PhasePlant can have a very different sound from Vital.

I wouldn't judge PhasePlant from the online demos (or its libraries). For $10 you can subscribe for a month and fully test it out for yourself.

In fact, listen to this quick test I did:




Definitely also listen to the .wav I've attached too.

If PhasePlant has such a "cold digital wavetable sound" you shouldn't have any trouble figuring out which of the four sounds it is, no? 

The other ones are ZebraHZ (with Diva ladder filter), Dune (also the ladder emulation), and Repro.


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## Trensharo (Dec 5, 2021)

Pier said:


> The idea is that instead of using Midi CCs you'd use the macros for that.
> 
> You can right click on the macro knob, and then midi learn with any CC you'd like.
> 
> ...


Cubase has Macros. I think SONAR/Cakewalk has them, as well.


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## emptyvessel (Dec 5, 2021)

@liquidlino 
Curious about the catchall term of "wavetable group of soft-synths" given Phase Plant has 4 engines, 1 of which is wavetable, the same as Pigments although the sampler engine there also has a granular mode so strictly 5. Both synths (and Synthmaster fwiw) have great tonal range. Perhaps they inherently all have a clean digital sound unless programmed to avoid this but that could be said about most digital synthesisers. I'm not challenging or being argumentative btw, life's way too short, just pointing out that viewing those synths as wavetable synths is under-representing their capabilities.
Great that you're bringing audio into Falcon & Pigments, by far my favourite way to work for organic results.

@Pier 
opening myself up here but my pick is that 1 & 3 are U-He synths. I like all but the 4th and 3 is my favourite. If the order you've put them in in the title is correct then I'm slightly wrong but I've never used Dune (#disclaimer)


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## Pier (Dec 5, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> Fair play, I can't hear anything distinguishable between those. Of them, the second one would be my choice - has that extra analogueness, seems non-linear in the filter, and more saturated. Will be interesting which one that is...
> 
> So what did you use in Phaseplant for this? Is it an anlogue saw wavetable? Is it Phaseplants filter, or are you cycling through the wavetable?


I used the default saw in all synths, and then simply put the filter and modulated it with the modwheel. Nothing else.

In PhasePlant I used the analog saw and the ladder filter (it's not available in the voice config but the effects).

This is it:






1) Repro
2) Dune
3) ZebraHZ with the Diva filter
4) PhasePlant



liquidlino said:


> Also, a single note tends not to be very informative... would be interesting to get the same demo, buit with the minor third being played as well at the same time. Will show a lot more difference I expect.


Your wish is my command:



(let me know if you want the wav)

Same order, same everything except that I switched Repro 1 for Repro 5.

Obviously there are differences, but I don't think PhasePlant sticks out as being cold and digital.



Empty Vessel said:


> opening myself up here but my pick is that 1 & 3 are U-He synths. I like all but the 4th and 3 is my favourite. If the order you've put them in in the title is correct then I'm slightly wrong but I've never used Dune (#disclaimer)


Wow I'm impressed you were able to catch that.


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## Pier (Dec 5, 2021)

Empty Vessel said:


> Curious about the catchall term of "wavetable group of soft-synths" given Phase Plant has 4 engines, 1 of which is wavetable, the same as Pigments although the sampler engine there also has a granular mode so strictly 5. Both synths (and Synthmaster fwiw) have great tonal range.


Zebra is also a wavetable synth.

Honestly, I think the filters and maybe some mojo in the audio path (VCA, feedback, etc) is where the magic really is. Not so much in the oscillators.


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## doctoremmet (Dec 6, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> Amazing, I think the only real difference I can pick up is that repro has some tuning drift going on, the others sound near identical to each other. Don't suppose you want to include a Falcon example too?  (only joking, don't need to!).


Pier sold Falcon mere weeks after announcing it had landed 

Cool test lads! I (as usually is the case) failed miserably. Props for Greg!!


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## doctoremmet (Dec 6, 2021)

I have done so many tests, I’m done with them haha. I have tested revered classics like the OB-Xa, ARP Oddyssey, PPG Wave, Microwave 1, DX7, CZ1000, FZ1, and many other hardware synths (present here) against both direct emulations and other softsynths and even samples of the actual synths - and personally I basically almost always scored 50/50 (in a properly set up test of course, like the one you have prepared here). This has lead me to conclude that my personal “fun” with synths is mostly correlated with a good sound and a nice UI, and that any claims of ‘realism’ (and lack thereof) of an emulation and the “huge difference” that hardware can make -to me- are extreme exaggerations. This is not to say I do not believe some of you can spot a difference from ten miles away. Because I also always disclaim my message by saying I likely have bad ears, bad taste and probably even both. What I can tell you though is that some of these differences are claimed by people who have never had any exposure to ‘real’ hardware synths and that is why some of the claimed differences may have taken on mythical proportions in their heads, when in reality software synths really come awefully close, and -again to my ears- often even sound better.


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## cedricm (Dec 6, 2021)

OK,
Here's my honest feedback, I'll leave it up to you to decide if it's linked to personal taste or else.

*Empty Vessel's SleepSystem*
It's pretty much what I hoped Suspension would be: a great collection of cinematic / ambient pads.
I favorited about half the pads.
For the price, it's highly recommended.

*Empty Vessel's Suspension*
I'm afraid a second and a third listening didn't change my assessment.
I realize taste isn't universal and what I don't like many will.

Globally, while the pads are different, they somehow all sound the same to me. Perhaps the "wobbliness intervals" are too similar or something.

The modwheel for glitch doesn't do it for me, but it may delight other customers.

Epic 2 doesn't work: one hears nothing. I tested in Studio One 5.4 and Bitwig 4.1*.

Bugs and randomness
Hearing patches many times, I did not hear the same everytime.
First, I thought this was a bug in PhasePlant (1.8.21 btw).
Then, I assumed it was the use of randomness for some parameters. Sorry, I didn't have time to check.

Here, views will probably vary. I welcome randomness. But I think you chose probability values that were way too small. I appreciate having some randomness during a 20s pad sequence. But if the 10th time I hear a preset, it sounds different, it's too unpredictable for me.

Examples: Epic 3, Metamorph.
Example 2: Mindwash. Sometimes, it's so quiet I thought it wasn't working.

Nocturn
Perhaps it's of no consequence whatsoever. The reverb tail is about 10s. But the sound continues to play (mostly inaudible but visible on the meters and on lane 3) for a good 40 s after that.

PS. You should consider making presets for Falcon 

* Trying to import my midi project in Bitwig didn't work at first. I got an error message that the 8-track limit was exceeded. That's no way to program if you ask me. Bitwig should have imported the first 8 tracks or asked me if I wanted to.


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## Pier (Dec 6, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Pier sold Falcon mere weeks after announcing it had landed
> 
> Cool test lads! I (as usually is the case) failed miserably. Props for Greg!!


In fact I didn't... I have to wait until February to be able to sell it!


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## Pier (Dec 6, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> I think we need a better test, this one doesn't seem to differentiate much....


The thing is, there are so many factors contributing to the final sound of a synth and there's a lot of placebo (for a lack of a better word) in our perception of sound. Look at the audiophile world where people rave about cables that cost thousands of dollars, which is absolute nonsense.

When listening to Vital and PhasePlant libraries, the digital feeling you're getting might come from a particular effect like the Disperser, or just because the designer used tons of multiband compression which does give this unnatural modern effect compared to pure analog.

Another test that could be done would be to drive the filters. This would probably show significant differences between the different filter modelings, but I don't think PhasePlant would come as evidently digital either. At least to me. @Empty Vessel with his privileged ears might have a different opinion 

I've always suspected U-He does introduce saturation in the signal path of their synths or maybe _something_ else. I suspect this is what actually gives them their revered organic qualities since so many companies have been able to model non linear filters pretty successfully.

Another example, if you look at Spire, it has a multiband compression at the output that many (most?) presets use. I'm sure this contributes to the perception of "the Spire sound".

Heck, maybe once we've made up our mind regarding the sound of a synth, our brain just catalogues it as "analog" or "cold and digital", etc. Just because sound designers tend to use it in one way or another. And that taints our perception of course.

This video comparing Diva and Serum really challenged my assumptions when I saw it. I'm not saying that there aren't differences between the two, but that maybe in many cases it's not so big as we imagine it to be.



Edit:

Personally, when watching that video there are many instances when I preferred the sound of Serum. Although it's a shame he didn't include the wav. Not sure how Youtube encodes the audio, but I can hear a big difference between my wav and the Soundcloud encoding.


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## Bee_Abney (Dec 6, 2021)

Pier said:


> The thing is, there are so many factors contributing to the final sound of a synth and there's a lot of placebo (for a lack of a better word) in our perception of sound. Look at the audiophile world where people rave about cables that cost thousands of dollars, which is absolute nonsense.
> 
> When listening to Vital and PhasePlant libraries, the digital feeling you're getting might come from a particular effect like the Disperser, or just because the designer used tons of multiband compression which does give this unnatural modern effect compared to pure analog.
> 
> ...



All of that is true except... my synth is better than yours. Yours sounds X, whilst mine sounds not-X. Mine can do Y, whilst yours flounders about in the shallow pools of B and C.

Also, hardware analog synths rule. Just because.

Real music doesn't use synths anyway. Electric guitars and a thousand-piece drum kit - it's the only authentic music.

I'm probably missing some key bases... Oh, yes, having frets on your bass is like having training wheels on your bicycle and entering the Tour de France.


I just love sounds.


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## doctoremmet (Dec 6, 2021)

To paraphrase LCD Soundsystem:

_I hear all the synthesizers I know are more relevant than the synthesizers you know

I hear you and your band have sold your computers and have bought a syntheziser and a sequencer, because you want to make something *REAL*. You want to make a Yazoo record_


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## doctoremmet (Dec 6, 2021)

Translation for VI-C people:

_My synth of choice is also used by Hans Zimmer_


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## Michel Simons (Dec 6, 2021)

Bee_Abney said:


> All of that is true except... my synth is better than yours. Yours sounds X, whilst mine sounds not-X. Mine can do Y, whilst yours flounders about in the shallow pools of B and C.
> 
> Also, hardware analog synths rule. Just because.
> 
> ...


Electric guitars aren't real instruments.


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## Pier (Dec 6, 2021)

Michel Simons said:


> Electric guitars aren't real instruments.


Honestly, if you're not making drums from the skins of goats you've raised yourself you're not a real musician.


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## doctoremmet (Dec 6, 2021)

Pier said:


> Honestly, if you're not making drums from the skins of goats you've raised yourself you're not a real musician.


I now manually sequence those goats’ DNA. You still work with plain vanilla goats?


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## doctoremmet (Dec 6, 2021)

In the mean time, in my *actual reality *

_it’s Patch Tuesday 




_


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## Bee_Abney (Dec 6, 2021)

I was going to say that I only had children into to make drums out of their skulls and skin; but what is this Patch Tuesday of which you speak?


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## doctoremmet (Dec 6, 2021)

I kill all my goats and breed new ones


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## doctoremmet (Dec 6, 2021)

I hope this will make the SINE Gods happy. Or less angry at least. Or maybe this time it will let me install libraries in folders with names I actually understand. Anyway…. we’ll be eating goat for months to come…


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## Bee_Abney (Dec 6, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> I kill all my goats and breed new ones


Come on! You can't go from murdering one's own children back to goats. That's not a legitimate move.


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## Bee_Abney (Dec 6, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> I hope this will make the SINE Gods happy. Or less angry at least. Or maybe this time it will let me install libraries in folders with names I actually understand. Anyway…. we’ll be eating goat for months to come…


You do know that it's Monday, though?


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## doctoremmet (Dec 6, 2021)

Bee_Abney said:


> You do know that it's Monday, though?


Yes I do. Once I start with SINE I better start on monday in hopes I won’t hit bloody Patch Wednesday.


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## Pier (Dec 6, 2021)

To expand on what I was saying earlier, check this video of a guy destroying the sound of Serum with a monstrous chain of effects (in Serum and Ableton).




From that video one might think Serum sounds like garbage, but in the Diva comparison I think it does sound great.


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## doctoremmet (Dec 6, 2021)

Rest assured, Serum sounds great.


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## Pier (Dec 6, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> Yeah but I'm not getting much music done, what with all the goat farming and all.








Sorry I couldn't resist


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## doctoremmet (Dec 6, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> You bought Berlin?


Nah. Duplex, Whisper and a couple of MODUS instruments. But I decided to redownload the whole shebang and to keep track of which numeric folder each instruments is saved to


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## emptyvessel (Dec 6, 2021)

cedricm said:


> OK,
> Here's my honest feedback, I'll leave it up to you to decide if it's linked to personal taste or else.
> 
> *Empty Vessel's SleepSystem*
> ...


I really appreciate your thoughts and I'm stoked you're happy with SleepSystem, it is much more indicative of my work overall. As explained in the DM there were constraints on the commissioned pack which made it tricky for me and unfortunately I think the over-thinking feedback loop didn't lead to the most positive results. No reflection on KHs btw, a really great bunch of guys making some excellent products.
Checking through those presets and there are many which sound different from what I remember though, quite a few are very quiet and as you say one which is silent! I may make some more experimental presets sometimes but that's stretching it a bit far  I noticed this actually in some presets from other packs. I'll have a chat with the guys and let them know, I made that pack well over a year ago and there have been lots of updates to PhasePlant since.

Regarding Falcon, if you look at my original post where I point out you can have preset descriptions in Falcon - the screenshot is from my pack Fraktal which I hope to release early in the New Year. I had hoped to get it out before Christmas but I have too much commission work to complete.

Thanks again for the feedback and the heads up on the broken patches, much appreciated.


Pier said:


> 1) Repro
> 2) Dune
> 3) ZebraHZ with the Diva filter
> 4) PhasePlant
> ...


Hah, thank you. I always think Urs' synths have quite a noticeable sound. Given I like 3 so much maybe I should finally pick up Zebra, or maybe there will be an intro price on Zebra 3. It's a synth that's always intrigued me.


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## Pier (Dec 6, 2021)

Empty Vessel said:


> Given I like 3 so much maybe I should finally pick up Zebra, or maybe there will be an intro price on Zebra 3. It's a synth that's always intrigued me.


If you buy Zebra 2 you'll be able to upgrade for about $30 or something like that.

If you also buy the expansion Dark Zebra, you'll get Zebra 3 for free when it comes out.


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## emptyvessel (Dec 6, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> That's a really good point - Phaseplant is like Pigments and Falcon in that it has the various oscillator types. Goes to show how little I know about it from not demoing it directly. And the same is true for Falcon, yo're riught - if you don't program it, it'll sound digital and cold too. Only explicit VA synths like Repro/Diva etc have natural analogue sound, but that can also be their achilles heel. (Both are on my to-buy list though. Hoping for another NI half price sale, and I'll just buy the entire U-He library at that point - can't believe I missed it earlier this year, I didn't understand how good U-He stuff is).


If you're in the market for more analogue sounding synths Xils Lab and TAL are often overlooked alternatives that I rate very highly. Of course U-he is an obvious choice for the quality of their work, Urs and the team put out some incredible stuff.



liquidlino said:


> I guess I'm just totally satisfied with Falcon, and Voltage Modular. Pigments is a little extra for quick work, and I realised I just don't need anything else / I'd rahter wait for U-He when I finally pull the trigger and get them. I've porobably got far too many synths already - Minimonsta (terrific mini moog emulation), PS-20 (MS-20 from cherry audio), DC-106 (cheery audio Juno), CA2600 (arp 2600 from chery audio). I don't find time to use them all as it is... PS-20 in particular is indeciperhable to me, the patch bay just doesn't seem to do what you think it will - and I'm used to Voltage Modular, so that's saying something...


Hah, yes that does sound like too many synths already 


liquidlino said:


> Have you ever thought about a patch bank for Voltage Modular? I'd be excisted to see what you'd do with such a playground... I think the challenge is restructing yourself to modules that all users will ahve - so that probably means stcking to the Core modules set, which is perhaps a trifle limiting - it really ocmes to life when you add the PSP module pack.


I got whatever the free offering was from Voltage Modular but didn't really vibe with it, I don't usually find a place for very big sounding analogue instruments and for software modular I'm very happy with the Bitwig Grid, VCV Rack and Reaktor which to me are much more flexible. fwiw re: PS-20, I've read many times people say the original MS-20 patchbay was quite unfathomable so you aren't alone in feeling that way


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## emptyvessel (Dec 6, 2021)

Pier said:


> If you buy Zebra 2 you'll be able to upgrade for about $30 or something like that.
> 
> If you also buy the expansion Dark Zebra, you'll get Zebra 3 for free when it comes out.


I read that here recently in a post from you! I'm tempted, I've been tempted for many years but never quite taken the plunge. 199 euro is up there for me although I don't doubt it's worth it. I'm spoiled by NFRs "what do you mean you want me to pay!!!??? Outrageous sir!!". In all seriousness I'm quite comfortable paying if a tool looks like it will work for me and I think Zebra would be a lovely environment to get lost in. Falcon is filling my time (also Pigments) so I'm hesitant to add another deep, immersive instrument to the toolkit. Indecisive emoji face...


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## Bee_Abney (Dec 6, 2021)

Empty Vessel said:


> I read that here recently in a post from you! I'm tempted, I've been tempted for many years but never quite taken the plunge. 199 euro is up there for me although I don't doubt it's worth it. I'm spoiled by NFRs "what do you mean you want me to pay!!!??? Outrageous sir!!". In all seriousness I'm quite comfortable paying if a tool looks like it will work for me and I think Zebra would be a lovely environment to get lost in. Falcon is filling my time (also Pigments) so I'm hesitant to add another deep, immersive instrument to the toolkit. Indecisive emoji face...


I would humbly request that you delay getting Zebra until you have released at least three preset packs for Falcon.

Pretty please!

Or, you know, whenever you're ready for something new...

Pier's presets for Zebra2 are really rather excellent. They certainly remind me of how very much I have to learn about synthesisers of all kinds.

Pigments I find very interesting. I loved it until I tried Falcon; then as much as I find it can make truly wonderful sounds, I miss the power in them that Falcon brings. I'm not sure what it is. IRCAM makes a huge difference on anything involving samples - although once IRCAM is involved my computer starts complaining at me.

Simon Stockhausen has a preset pack for Pigments that completely knocks me out, though. I haven't bought it, but I just like to marvel at the many demos on his site. I know that he has another Falcon instrument (a singing bowl) in the works.

I also find Falcon easier to program, oddly enough. Quicker too. But then, maybe that is because I mainly work from samples.


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## doctoremmet (Dec 6, 2021)

Bee_Abney said:


> Simon Stockhausen has a preset pack for Pigments that completely knocks me out, though. I haven't bought it, but I just like to marvel at the many demos on his site.


That pack is indeed excellent.


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## Pier (Dec 6, 2021)

Empty Vessel said:


> I read that here recently in a post from you! I'm tempted, I've been tempted for many years but never quite taken the plunge. 199 euro is up there for me although I don't doubt it's worth it. I'm spoiled by NFRs "what do you mean you want me to pay!!!??? Outrageous sir!!". In all seriousness I'm quite comfortable paying if a tool looks like it will work for me and I think Zebra would be a lovely environment to get lost in. Falcon is filling my time (also Pigments) so I'm hesitant to add another deep, immersive instrument to the toolkit. Indecisive emoji face...


I totally get what you're saying. I recently realized as a hobbyist time is my most precious asset and it's better to focus than to spread it thin. I went and sold most of my synths on Knobcloud. Even synths I do think sound amazing but kept collecting dust.

Personally, Zebra is the best investment I've ever made in audio. I've been using it since 2010 (on and off) and it keeps surprising me. I don't consider myself a synthesis expert by any means, but the more I advance in this path, the more I appreciate how great it is.

For 2022 I will keep focusing on Zebra. I have two more library projects I want to keep working on.

I'm really enjoying PhasePlant too. I've been just making random presets to get a feel of what I can achieve with it. Maybe I'll start a library for it too


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## Pier (Dec 6, 2021)

Bee_Abney said:


> Pier's presets for Zebra2 are really rather excellent. They certainly remind me of how very much I have to learn about synthesisers of all kinds.


Thanks again Bee 🙏

FYI the Abyss presets I sent you are very different from the stuff currently on my website. I don't think you'd enjoy the Urban Warfare library 😂


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## Bee_Abney (Dec 6, 2021)

Pier said:


> Thanks again Bee 🙏
> 
> FYI the Abyss presets I sent you are very different from the stuff currently on my website. I don't think you'd enjoy the Urban Warfare library 😂


Oh, I know! I like the demos well enough, but I wouldn't know how to use those sounds!


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## emptyvessel (Dec 6, 2021)

Bee_Abney said:


> I would humbly request that you delay getting Zebra until you have released at least three preset packs for Falcon.
> 
> Pretty please!
> 
> ...


hahaha, sure ok it's a deal, and thank you. To be honest I'm very invested in Falcon as a creative environment and I've realised over the last few years - especially recently - that creation of samples, manipulation of audio and creating patches based on the resulting audio is really my happy place. Pure synthesis is great as a starting point but sending audio out into the "real" world to let it breathe, bend it around with a tape machine or hardware sampler, analogue filters etc. then importing that audio in some way into the instrument is really what I love even if it's a ridiculously slow and contrived way of working. I think (I hope) the results are audible. Some of my base samples might have spent a couple of hours or more going through various stages of processing in hardware and/or software.
I do struggle a bit to engage with instruments that don't let me import audio, be it samples, granular, wavetables, re-synthesis, just...something.

I can see, other than commissions where all bets are off, that I will be spending most of my own project time with Falcon and Pigments for the coming year at least. Falcon particularly lets me really express my ideas and not feel constrained and I never find myself dissatisfied with the result and wanting to reach for external FX which is a big plus for me. The end product never feels compromised.
I used to have big trouble with the IRCAM engines but since I got an M1 Mac all that is history.
I toy, as I have for years, with Kontakt and its user-base but I really like just focusing on tools that I'm really engaged by even if they are seen as a bit more niche. Great business-sense, I'm sure 

Mr Stockhausen is a hero, definitely someone I look up to, a very talented guy.

"I also find Falcon easier to program, oddly enough. Quicker too" - yeah I don't think that's odd, I fly around Falcon (no pun intended) pretty quickly and the regimented patch structure makes it easier to keep myself organised. I also spend less time having to put extra effort into getting it to sound how I want which is a big deal for me.

I'd love to release some packs for Iris 2 and Bitwig but I worry uptake would be too low to justify the time spent, not that that is always the point for me.

First Falcon pack will be in early 2022, I have 31 of 50 presets done and I'm still deciding whether to put the time into a totally custom UI for it, likely not for the first one, more likely for subsequent ones.
Do feel free to relentlessly hassle me by DM or email if I don't stick to this, I've got a bunch of work for Arturia starting soon but it's been way too long (well over a year!!) since I released any new packs!


----------



## emptyvessel (Dec 6, 2021)

Pier said:


> I totally get what you're saying. I recently realized as a hobbyist time is my most precious asset and it's better to focus than to spread it thin. I went and sold most of my synths on Knobcloud. Even synths I do think sound amazing but kept collecting dust.
> 
> Personally, Zebra is the best investment I've ever made in audio. I've been using it since 2010 (on and off) and it keeps surprising me. I don't consider myself a synthesis expert by any means, but the more I advance in this path, the more I appreciate how great it is.
> 
> ...


Yeah 100% agree. Especially for me when I'm doing this as a day job it's much less of a hobby thing for me outside of work so I don't have time to explore all of the synths. It makes sense to find one or two that really let you express yourself and, most importantly, that you enjoy using!



> "I don't consider myself a synthesis expert by any means, but the more I advance in this path, the more I appreciate how great it is."



I mean, I think we're all still learning, I've been doing this stuff since my Siel Opera6 & DX21 back in the 80s but synths have changed so much since then. It's one thing I love about all this nonsense, there is always something new to learn each day, new ideas to try. It's great to have such deep instruments to explore that we can be finding new ways to use them many years after the first install. All for a couple of hundred euros and running on a relatively cheap everyda home computer? Alien magic I tell ya, alien magic!! :emoji_alien:


----------



## Pier (Dec 6, 2021)

Empty Vessel said:


> I'd love to release some packs for Iris 2 and Bitwig but I worry uptake would be too low to justify the time spent, not that that is always the point for me.


I've considered making cinematic Bitwig presets but...

1) The audience is minuscule. I'd say 99% of Bitwig users are either sound designers themselves or Ableton Live refugees making some form of EDM. As a hobbyist I can afford the luxury of not caring about the money, but it would be pretty disheartening to spend months working on a library that not a single soul will use.

2) The preset system in Bitwig needs a complete overhaul. You can search, filter, and navigate a list of preset files, but the experience is really subpar compared to Zebra, PhasePlant, or Omnisphere. Even Studio One is so much better as it stores an audio preview of their channel presets (the feature is called audio loops).


----------



## Pier (Dec 6, 2021)

Empty Vessel said:


> Alien magic I tell ya, alien magic!! :emoji_alien:


LOL absolutely!


----------



## Bee_Abney (Dec 6, 2021)

Empty Vessel said:


> hahaha, sure ok it's a deal, and thank you. To be honest I'm very invested in Falcon as a creative environment and I've realised over the last few years - especially recently - that creation of samples, manipulation of audio and creating patches based on the resulting audio is really my happy place. Pure synthesis is great as a starting point but sending audio out into the "real" world to let it breathe, bend it around with a tape machine or hardware sampler, analogue filters etc. then importing that audio in some way into the instrument is really what I love even if it's a ridiculously slow and contrived way of working. I think (I hope) the results are audible. Some of my base samples might have spent a couple of hours or more going through various stages of processing in hardware and/or software.
> I do struggle a bit to engage with instruments that don't let me import audio, be it samples, granular, wavetables, re-synthesis, just...something.
> 
> I can see, other than commissions where all bets are off, that I will be spending most of my own project time with Falcon and Pigments for the coming year at least. Falcon particularly lets me really express my ideas and not feel constrained and I never find myself dissatisfied with the result and wanting to reach for external FX which is a big plus for me. The end product never feels compromised.
> ...


I'd love to get to know Iris 2 properly. I've played around with it; but not come close to matching the sounds I hear in the presets. It is a lovely synth, very distinctive, and ripe for updates it likely won't receive. Pier got me interested in Bitwig. There were some great sales on (maybe they still are); but I have already taken on far too much to study.

I wouldn't worry about a custom UI, unless that helps avoid the preset organisation that some people find so frustrating. A nice picture, like you have, and some suitably inspiring macros - or even thoroughly practical macros for that matter - should be ample.

I think that what draws me to sound design is the creative and expressive dimension too. It's odd. I have played guitar for more than thirty years and never had much interest in effects. There's so much you can do with your hands. And I don't mean scales and such, but just the way you can manipulate the strings. I like synth patches that let me do that. It doesn't have to be much, just a dial or two and pitch bend, and suddenly it is alive.

Now if I could just get results that anyone else likes the sound of, it will be great!

More generally:
The hobby thing. I don't understand hobbies or what they are. I'm too ill to work for, I expect, at least a few more years if not for good; so I'm an amateur. But role-playing games are a hobby. I don't know what it would be like for music or sound design to be a hobby. But I may be being over-precious about the words. I can never think of reading fiction as a hobby, either. So, I may just be being over-precious about art!

Can religion be a hobby? If it becomes one, surely it is becomes something else entirely and not the original thing itself.


----------



## emptyvessel (Dec 6, 2021)

Pier said:


> I've considered making cinematic Bitwig presets but...
> 
> 1) The audience is minuscule. I'd say 99% of Bitwig users are either sound designers themselves or Ableton Live refugees making some form of EDM. As a hobbyist I can afford the luxury of not caring about the money, but it would be pretty disheartening to spend months working on a library that not a single soul will use.
> 
> 2) The preset system in Bitwig needs a complete overhaul. You can search, filter, and navigate a list of preset files, but the experience is really subpar compared to Zebra, PhasePlant, or Omnisphere. Even Studio One is so much better as it stores an audio preview of their channel presets (the feature is called audio loops).


exactly, all my fears and concerns also. A few customers have asked why I don't do it when I'm clearly a big fan of Bitwig and I do feel a little bad not supporting the guys by making some content but I also worry about all of the things you mention. It's a shame. I can afford a certain amount of low performing packs if it's something I just *really* want to make (my Razor pack for example) but it's still a business and I can only afford a certain number of misses among the "hits".


----------



## emptyvessel (Dec 6, 2021)

Bee_Abney said:


> I'd love to get to know Iris 2 properly. I've played around with it; but not come close to matching the sounds I hear in the presets. It is a lovely synth, very distinctive, and ripe for updates it likely won't receive. Pier got me interested in Bitwig. There were some great sales on (maybe they still are); but I have already taken on far too much to study.



Yeah alot of these tools are so deep and need such investment of time, I've given up trying to master them all. DAWs in particularly are not something to take on lightly.


Bee_Abney said:


> I wouldn't worry about a custom UI, unless that helps avoid the preset organisation that some people find so frustrating. A nice picture, like you have, and some suitably inspiring macros - or even thoroughly practical macros for that matter - should be ample.



Good to know, I don't love the default knob design but it's just knobs. I don't really want to spend time on details like custom knobs when making new samples and presets really is time better spent.



Bee_Abney said:


> I think that what draws me to sound design is the creative and expressive dimension too. It's odd. I have played guitar for more than thirty years and never had much interest in effects. There's so much you can do with your hands. And I don't mean scales and such, but just the way you can manipulate the strings. I like synth patches that let me do that. It doesn't have to be much, just a dial or two and pitch bend, and suddenly it is alive.


Yeah I totally agree, I was a bit slow to get there because I grew up with synths that were not very expressive and I was originally an organist so velocity sensitivity and aftertouch took a while for me to adjust to (I do have a piano now and practice on it quite a bit). Expressivity and malleability in patches is something I'm trying harder and harder with, hence things like Falcon where those possibilities are so much greater. I haven't yet dipped a toe or any other body extremity into MPE, though.


Bee_Abney said:


> Now if I could just get results that anyone else likes the sound of, it will be great!





Bee_Abney said:


> More generally:
> The hobby thing. I don't understand hobbies or what they are. I'm too ill to work for, I expect, at least a few more years if not for good; so I'm an amateur. But role-playing games are a hobby. I don't know what it would be like for music or sound design to be a hobby. But I may be being over-precious about the words. I can never think of reading fiction as a hobby, either. So, I may just be being over-precious about art!
> 
> Can religion be a hobby? If it becomes one, surely it is becomes something else entirely and not the original thing itself.


Since leaving the hated day job (over 10 years ago now!!) I live in a bit of a different way and see things differently. There isn't really "work" and "hobby" now, there's just life and life involves a variety of things to spend my time on, some thankfully make a bit of money so I can cover costs incurred by existing. I guess all of the things mean something to me and the older I get the more I realise which things are precious and deserve my (dwindling) time and which don't. I guess I shouldn't have used the words in the original post since I don't really think that way, just trying to find a way to point out I use synths all day so it's not something I tinker with much outside of that. I do work on music though, often with hardware, music and exploration of sound are definitely something of some core importance/resonance inside me. Time spent doing that is hard to define as anything really, meditation maybe, I've just always done it since a very young age and always felt a need to do it and a great satisfaction from it.


----------



## Bee_Abney (Dec 6, 2021)

Empty Vessel said:


> Yeah alot of these tools are so deep and need such investment of time, I've given up trying to master them all. DAWs in particularly are not something to take on lightly.
> 
> 
> Good to know, I don't love the default knob design but it's just knobs. I don't really want to spend time on details like custom knobs when making new samples and presets really is time better spent.
> ...


If anyone called me a hobbyist, I'd either take no offense whatsoever but be a little baffled; or else think that they thought my work was rubbish - in which case, fair enough!


----------



## Pier (Dec 6, 2021)

Empty Vessel said:


> Since leaving the hated day job (over 10 years ago now!!) I live in a bit of a different way and see things differently. There isn't really "work" and "hobby" now, there's just life and life involves a variety of things to spend my time on, some thankfully make a bit of money so I can cover costs incurred by existing. I guess all of the things mean something to me and the older I get the more I realise which things are precious and deserve my (dwindling) time and which don't.


So much wisdom here and those words resonate a lot.

When I say sound design is a hobby, I only mean that I don't expect to sustain myself from that. I do it for the pleasure of it. If I make some pocket money from it, it's great. If not, that's great too.

I'm also a master of my time. I left my previous job to pursue an audio hosting startup adventure I hope I'll be finally releasing in early 2022. I can hook you up once we're in beta for your website


----------



## emptyvessel (Dec 6, 2021)

Pier said:


> So much wisdom here and those words resonate a lot.
> 
> When I say sound design is a hobby, I only mean that I don't expect to sustain myself from that. I do it for the pleasure of it. If I make some pocket money from it, it's great. If not, that's great too.


Thank you 
Yeah it's really what I was trying to express, to differentiate between something to do to earn money and something to do simply because we want to, not wishing to suggest that there's never blurring or crossover between those 2 things of course.
I don't tend to chase low-hanging fruit or current trends (a great business decision, I'm sure ). I prefer to make what I want for platforms I believe in and am inspired by. If that affects my potential audience size and income I'm fine with that. I've (luckily) no desire for great riches, just to spend my time doing what I enjoy and to have freedom and a healthy balance in what I spend my time doing. If it means sound design as a business becomes un-viable at some point then I guess I'll find something else to do but I prefer not to compromise how I work.



Pier said:


> I'm also a master of my time. I left my previous job to pursue an audio hosting startup adventure I hope I'll be finally releasing in early 2022. I can hook you up once we're in beta for your website


Please do! I continue to use Soundcloud purely as a host for pack demos by now and because it tends to be supported for embedding in most of the important social places but any sense of community and discovery has dwindled for me on that platform.

Apologies to the OP for what has become an entirely off-topic discussion!


----------



## Kuusniemi (Dec 6, 2021)

I'll chime in a bit as well seeing I work with Phase Plant and have released "unofficial" banks for it. 

I think PP get labeled wrong and is marketed as an EDM machine (looking at the endorsements on Kilohearts' site most of them are from the electronic music crowd) when it is a much more powerful and inspiring tool. For me what makes PP one of the best tools in my arsenal is the freedom it gives me. It's basically a synth I build everytime.

And for me it is a great tool for cinematic sound design because the sampler module is very good. If Kilohearts' ever adds a granular there I'm all set for my synth needs. Granted I have very little interest in soft synths that are just synths; I have two great hardware synths for all that. Currently I'm pitting PP against Omnisphere as those are the two main platforms I've made presets libraries for and I prefer PP so much over Omnisphere. It's probably the effects which in PP are top notch and in Omnisphere they are a bit dated (and buggy at times). But PP is a very different beast from most synths people mention here. And it's not quite Falconesque as it doesn't do multisamples (but for me that's ok). But the way you can modulate things makes PP a powerful piece of software.

What I do agree with is that a lot of the presets on PP are quite unusable (I do not have any of the official content banks, just the factory library). There are many great sounding things there, but too many patches that try to be a full track in themselves. I think the people at Kilohearts have wanted to demonstrate what you can do with PP. And a bit of what is wrong is playing the star game of "oh look we have this and this designing patches for us". Nothing wrong with that, though they might not be the best.

About my own PP banks: when I started to do these I did ponder about the price range quite a bit. I decided on the same 29 as the official content banks, but I decided that I would have 100 patches in them. I decided so, because I don't think you can explore the idea you're basing your library/content bank in something that is less. And I do believe you should always have an idea you working with (and it's not something like "The idea is EDM" but "The idea is a cockroach infested club"). I have also tried to start conversations with Kilohearts about producing an official content bank for them, but might be I'm too small fry for them.  Now I'm fine doing things my way so no bitterness about that, and as Empty Vessel said I'd probably be happier without that much control and feedback.

Ok, I'm rambling, sorry for that, it's the middle of the night here and I really should be sleeping.

Oh and if the OP (or anyone else in this thread for that matter) wants to test out the PP banks I've made, PM me.


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## tomwolfe (Dec 9, 2021)

cedricm said:


> Of the three, Animus by Tom Wolfe is by far the best one, and the only one I can recommend.
> It offers great textures and sequences.


Awesome to hear you liked Animus! Where @Empty Vessel mentions they had issues with feedback and certain constraints, I think I got pretty lucky as Animus was one of the very first content banks they commissioned. It was well over a year between when I finished it and when it was released. As such, I was pretty much left to my own devices. I think the only real "feedback" to come my way was to replace a couple of patches for being "too EDM" .

I do enjoy using Phase Plant a lot, and the team at Kilohearts have been good to me. The work flow is pretty smooth and well laid out, although doing various things became a little tedious after a while. I think one of the issues with PP is that its actually a bit too easy to overdo it - you've got to be restrained and come at it from a slightly more minimalist point of view, or you can get carried away making things needlessly complicated.


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## cedricm (Dec 16, 2021)

Tapsa of Man Makes Noise kindly gave me 2 PhasePlant soundbanks for reviews: Fawkes and PhaseFreak.

There's no two ways about it: I like them!
The installation is super easy: unzip then drag & drop the .bank file on an instance of PhasePlant.

Most presets offer a few macros, really useful, typically for distortion, ambience, rythms, and so forth.

Each contains 100 presets, which is double what can be found on Kiloheart's soundbanks.

*Fawkes*
The soundbank is described as emphasizing tension and suspense, and I fully agree.
It contains lots of great pads and drones, but also hits, FXs, and "monk" vocals.

If I had a criticism, the guitar presets don't do it for me.

*PhaseFreak*
It's born from the combination of Arturia's MicroFreak sounds with PhasePlant processing.

Where it is perhaps less strong on pads and drones that Fawkes - or maybe because of listening fatigue, since I heard it after Fawkes - it does deliver a good number of awesome presets, such as
DNA, Datacode, Cityscape, Fluxe, Formant bass, Freakytar, Infinity pluck, Micro Pluck, Motorcycles, Pulsator lead, Scanner, Songbird.

All in all, a good deal since you get twice the number of presets of a Kilohearts soundbank for the same price, €29 excluding VAT.
For those into cinematics I recommend watching the videos and listening to the demos.

MMN also sells banks for synths that I don't have yet (Omnisphere, including a free bank, MSoundFactory), as well as libraries for Kontakt full version.

There's a freebie version of most of those Omnisphere and Kontakt libraires in the Freebies section, offering about a selection of 10 patches from the corresponding paid products.

In my opinion, this is exemplary, since the issue with most libraries is that there aren't any "Try before you buy".

I got the Jumalauta and I'm looking forward to playing with it this weekend.


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## Kuusniemi (Dec 16, 2021)

cedricm said:


> In my opinion, this is exemplary, since the issue with most libraries is that there aren't any "Try before you buy".


Reminds that I've actually forgotten to make sampler of Fawkes and PhaseFreak.... On to that after I get this Xmas thingy finished...


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## Alchemedia (Sep 18, 2022)

Michel Simons said:


> Electric guitars aren't real instruments.



“Your guitar is a divining rod. Use it to find spirits in the other world and bring them over. A guitar is also a fishing rod. If you’re good, you’ll land a big one.” --Don Van Vliet


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## Sampleconstruct (Sep 25, 2022)

cedricm said:


> Indeed, learning from the expansions a big part of the reason I purchased them.
> 
> While UVI does offer nice documentations, they don't go into preset details. It would be great if Simon sent them patch documentation for the extensions he made for Falcon, to be included in an updated documentation.


Actually I always do send them the patch-list and each patch also has the description embedded in Falcon's info tab, just look for the little "i" in the interface.


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## cedricm (Sep 26, 2022)

Sampleconstruct said:


> Actually I always do send them the patch-list and each patch also has the description embedded in Falcon's info tab, just look for the little "i" in the interface.


Indeed Simon, it'a a great resource!






Still, the PlasePlant preset listing is much more practical in my opinion:






Interesting UVI conversation btw.


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## Frank1985 (Nov 25, 2022)

I purchased the kinetics expansion ... The patches are really cool, but I'm having trouble figuring out the 'backend of falcon'. For examples, in cases where they consists of several elements - let's say a pad, a koto, water FX and some chimes, how do I go about assigning separate FX to each?


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## liquidlino (Nov 25, 2022)

Frank1985 said:


> I purchased the kinetics expansion ... The patches are really cool, but I'm having trouble figuring out the 'backend of falcon'. For examples, in cases where they consists of several elements - let's say a pad, a koto, water FX and some chimes, how do I go about assigning separate FX to each?


Open the tree on the left, scroll down till you see each layer, then click on the layer you want to add FX, go to the edit tab in the centre pane, and add FX to the layer or keygroup sections.


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## Bee_Abney (Nov 25, 2022)

Once you have the tree view, you can find your way around much better. It can quickly get more complex and befuddling; but the basic rule is there are a number of layers, each with a single oscillator. Each can have its own effects (including filters) and/or arp/sequencer. And you can apply effects and/or an arp or sequencer to the whole program (preset/patch) as well. Modulation can also be at these different layers.


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## liquidlino (Nov 25, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> Once you have the tree view, you can find your way around much better. It can quickly get more complex and befuddling; but the basic rule is there are a number of layers, each with a single oscillator. Each can have its own effects (including filters) and/or arp/sequencer. And you can apply effects and/or an arp or sequencer to the whole program (preset/patch) as well. Modulation can also be at these different layers.


Not quite right, Bee. Layers can contain any number of keygroups. A keygroup can contain any number of oscillators. Some modulations can only be effective at keygroup level (envelopes, adsr etc, anything that is triggered by a note on event. oddly it will let you place them higher up on layers or program level, but then they don't work. A classic newcomer hazard in Falcon).


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## Bee_Abney (Nov 25, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> Not quite right, Bee. Layers can contain any number of keygroups. A keygroup can contain any number of oscillators. Some modulations can only be effective at keygroup level (envelopes, adsr etc, anything that is triggered by a note on event. oddly it will let you place them higher up on layers or program level, but then they don't work. A classic newcomer hazard in Falcon).


Yes, indeed so. A slip up on my part. Thanks.


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## Wes Mayhall (Nov 25, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> oddly it will let you place them higher up on layers or program level, but then they don't work.


It does me good to hear someone else acknowledge the puzzling behavior.


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## Fleer (Dec 23, 2022)

Got four expansions (the 3 Simon Stockhausen ones and VOKLM). 

Edit: my bad, got pricing wrong with edu.


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## Bee_Abney (Dec 23, 2022)

Fleer said:


> Got four expansions (the 3 Simon Stockhausen ones and VOKLM) for $59.20, so under $15 each. My kinda price.


Wow, that's good going! Have you checked out Simon's instruments - stick cello and so on?


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## Octave_Jumper (Dec 23, 2022)

Fleer said:


> Got four expansions (the 3 Simon Stockhausen ones and VOKLM) for $59.20, so under $15 each. My kinda price.


can I ask how you got this discount? I know about the current vouchers on the site and the 'SNOW' $20-off code but this seems a little better!


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## Fleer (Dec 23, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> Wow, that's good going! Have you checked out Simon's instruments - stick cello and so on?


Good idea!


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## Fleer (Dec 23, 2022)

Octave_Jumper said:


> can I ask how you got this discount? I know about the current vouchers on the site and the 'SNOW' $20-off code but this seems a little better!


Got pricing wrong with edu. My bad, sorry.


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## Fleer (Dec 23, 2022)

Any thoughts on the latest PhasePlant sound bank Ephemeris? As it’s by Venus Theory, I was rather interested, but I’m still not sure I’ll jump.


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