# Chords to support melody lines?



## dannymc (Jul 11, 2015)

hi guys, 

this is probably a very basic question for all you professional musicians out there but as i have relatively basic music theory and mainly compose by ear this is a tricky one for me. 

i'm basically wondering that once you've mocked out your single line melody and/or counter melodies, how does one know are even busk out support chords that will fit the melody without changing the nature and mood of the melody? i hope this makes sense. basically what i find is that if you start with the chord progression method then its easy enough to come up with support melodies in the treble clef to go with the chord progression but this doesnt seem to be as easy for me in reverse. i have my melody lines but i've no idea where to start with chords other than just trying out different combinations which i'm guessing is not the optimum way of composing and sometimes results in me losing my creative track changing a track that as suppose to be minor to major and vice versa.

what is the professional method to this technique? thanks guys


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## Christof (Jul 11, 2015)

Start with "Silent night", a very good piece to experiment, you can use 3 chords or more than 7 
If you want I can show you some variations...


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## thov72 (Jul 12, 2015)

a simple method would be to create a bass line next and the just "fill in" the rest.
Since for most music it is totally sufficient to have a chord consisting of root, third and fifth (e.g. C-E-G) there are not too many possibilities for the chord progression, assuming you don´t want to modulate, change the key signature all the time.


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## ed buller (Jul 15, 2015)

there are several things to consider when dealing with single melody lines.

1. How often to you want a chord under the melody note. ( this is called harmonic rhythm ).
2. do you want the chords to change the flavour of the melody at any time or do you want the chords to just enhance it and reinforce a continuos mood .
3. Say your melody is the following notes....c,f,e,g,g,b,a,d,e.........we need to establish it's key.

we also should just play the melody a few times to establish what it feels like it is ...try and ascribe it a mood to guide you in your choices. Also look for the way it ends. Is it definite or does it feel like it's unfinished . This melody sounds like the end is sad and wistful....if we ended on the c..it would be very different. So try and understand what your melody has the potential to be !

these note's could be in all of the following keys.

C maj
D dorian
E Phrygian

or it could start in one and end in another....

a simple thing to do that will always work is say when you want a chord...what is the melody note. make that either the root, 3rd or fifth of the chord ( yes you can also make it the 6th, 7th, 9th 11th...etc.....)

so let's put an F under the first two notes ( that will be the fifth and the root , Then a C under the next three ( that would be the third then the fifth .....OR...we could use that second g to change the key and play an Eb Maj !!!...instead of the e minor that the key dictates. But that changes everything....the b that comes next sounds awkward ...we would have to consider changing it to a B flat...And then we have totally changed the vibe...so let's go to E minor...which suits the b perfectly as it's the fifth of the chord. Then when we play the a go to an F maj and maybe stay on it for the d .... Now we have the melody note acting as a sixth on the F...sounds nice though and makes the next Chord a C work perfectly as we have a cadence ..


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## waveheavy (Jul 20, 2015)

dannymc said:


> hi guys,
> 
> i'm basically wondering that once you've mocked out your single line melody and/or counter melodies, how does one know are even busk out support chords that will fit the melody without changing the nature and mood of the melody?....
> 
> what is the professional method to this technique? thanks guys



Long answer: check out some books on harmony/composition. Peter Alexander's books on harmony are great practical guides if you don't want to do the school thing. Learning the tools is important to get out of the 're-create the wheel' stage. One still can... become a professional musician with a good ear (i.e., Jazz guitarist Wes Montgomery who actually created a definitive Jazz style for guitar). 

Short answer: learn basic counterpoint. See "Art Of Counterpoint" on YouTube, taught by a pianist from Italy. Counterpoint is how the Classical masters composed. With that, you can compose one line of music, and use it as the melody, counter melody, or bass line, and compose the other lines off that to come up with chord triads. Though Classical counterpoint stayed strictly within the rules to get the 'Classical sound', modern counterpoint does not always follow those rules and is used in most every genre of music today.

Dave


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## dannymc (Jul 20, 2015)

thanks for the great replies guys appreciate it. i'll look into those books and tutorials.


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## NoamL (Jul 23, 2015)

dannymc said:


> what is the professional method to this technique? thanks guys



*"Round up the usual suspects" *is my method

Suppose you have a simple melody *C D G E*, over C major with a chord change on the *E*... but what chord?

Now keep in mind I have no idea what chord to put next.

So start with chord members. E can be the root, third or fifth of a major chord: those chords would be EM, CM, AM. Or it could be the root, third or fifth of a minor chord: Em, C#m, Am.

Or if that doesn't satisfy, it could be the b7 of a dominant seventh: F#7! 

Two other "usual suspects" are the 9th and #4 (usually resolving down #4-3). E would be the ninth of a D major chord, and it would be the #4 of a BbM chord.

I just play around until I 'recognize' one of these chords as the one in my head. All it takes is an open mind to be able to see any note as a member or extension of any chord - regardless of key.


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## dannymc (Dec 5, 2015)

hi guys thought this question would be best suited as an extension to this original post of mine rather than starting a new. so my question is in regards chord progressions.

i've learned so far (rightly or wrongly) that many cues are often started with a chord progression usually 4 or 8 of them. then from that chord progression a number of melodies often 2 or 3 are devised from that chord progression and orchestrated throughout the cue. my question is, does the underlining chord progression of the cue usually remain the same and its actually just the top line and counter melodies that are the variation? or could one cue have multiple chord progressions in one cue or is that over kill? 

definitely it seems in popular commercial music that they just stick to 4 chords with maybe one variation chord thrown in now and again and everything else is top line melodies and counter melodies but is film/trailer music more advanced?

Danny


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## hummingbird (Dec 5, 2015)

I think of a cue as having two to four sections, i.e.:
intro (2-4 bars) - possibly just percussion, or short melodic component
A section - the 'chorus' with its chord progression
B section - the 'verse' with its chord progression
A section - the 'chorus' with its chord progression repeated with enhancements

the change to B could be as you suggest, the same chord progression with things dropping out and a variation in percussion etc
or
a second melody with its own chord progression

which you use might be influenced by the genre

let's say the cue is actually quite long so
A
B
A
B
A
C
A
in my mind that's a total of three chord progressions related to each other ie (in simple terms)
A - in AM
B - in DM
C - in F

in my mind there are not 'multiple chord progressions', just 2 or 3 sections. 

Do I make any sense or should I have coffee before trying to answer a post :D


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## dannymc (Dec 5, 2015)

> Do I make any sense or should I have coffee before trying to answer a post :D



ha ha no need for the coffee Hummingbird. thats one of the best explanations i could of asked for. makes things a whole lot clearer thanks so much


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## Hanu_H (Dec 5, 2015)

Hey Danny,

When writing orchestral music, I normally don't think about the chords at all. I like to start with a melody and then play the melody on your right hand and start composing the bassline with your left hand. Then you are not thinking the chords all the time and you can be more creative with the bassline. After that, I start harmonizing the main melody. Let's say I use V1 for the melody and basses for the bassline. Then I take V2 and harmonize the melody with it. 3rd is the most common interval but you can use what ever you like, as long as it works with your melody and bassline. Sometimes you find a nice harmony that doesn't fit with your bassline, then you just need to change the bass to more suitable one. When you are happy with that, you can start thinking about third harmony on the melody or the accompaniment. This is where I really start to think chords. You already have 3 notes playing in your harmony. Sometimes bass can play same notes as your melody, then there is only 2 notes. Let's say the melody and bass is played legato. Now take cellos and play a staccato line which fills the chords and brings some movement with a rhytmic figure. Let's say your V1 and basses are playing a 3rd and V2 are playing 5th, then cellos could play the tonic to make the chord solid. This gives you an easy way to alter the harmony as you go. Let's think that we are in Cm. You got Eb as 3rd and G as 5th. If you add the cellos you got C as well. But what if you play Bb with your cellos instead of C? Then the chord is no longer Cm but Eb. You can do this all day and get just the right flavor to your melodies without thinking the chords too much. Just pile some 3rds on top of each other and make your melodies shine.

-Hannes


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## mverta (Dec 5, 2015)

As a rule, I don't promote my masterclasses in threads very often, but taking my Composition 1 class would be like dropping a tactical nuclear weapon on your problem. Good luck!


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## Jason_D (Dec 5, 2015)

Mike's classes are great Danny, especially for the price. I say that after having taken many Berklee courses.


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## dannymc (Dec 6, 2015)

> As a rule, I don't promote my masterclasses in threads very often, but taking my Composition 1 class would be like dropping a tactical nuclear weapon on your problem. Good luck!



you know Mike i was hoping you'd chime in. i"ve being toying with taking one of your master classes for a while and was hoping this issue was covered in some way or other but wasn't sure in the many videos you have would be the one to go for. still only a year at this so i"m still trying to break out of the chord progression trap. 

thanks i"ll definitely check out your composition 1 class


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## skyy38 (Feb 1, 2016)

waveheavy said:


> Long answer: check out some books on harmony/composition. Peter Alexander's books on harmony are great practical guides if you don't want to do the school thing. Learning the tools is important to get out of the 're-create the wheel' stage. One still can... become a professional musician with a good ear (i.e., Jazz guitarist Wes Montgomery who actually created a definitive Jazz style for guitar).
> 
> Short answer: learn basic counterpoint. See "Art Of Counterpoint" on YouTube, taught by a pianist from Italy. Counterpoint is how the Classical masters composed. With that, you can compose one line of music, and use it as the melody, counter melody, or bass line, and compose the other lines off that to come up with chord triads. Though Classical counterpoint stayed strictly within the rules to get the 'Classical sound', modern counterpoint does not always follow those rules and is used in most every genre of music today.
> 
> Dave



Here, try this:

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/77-Principles-of-Orchestration-Online


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## Living Fossil (Feb 1, 2016)

dannymc said:


> what is the professional method to this technique? thanks guys



The "professional" method for a trained composer is very simple: He writes what he hears. In the end, all the rules methods, etc, etc. are important for the time while you are learning, but when it really comes to "composing", all those thousands of theoretical/semitheoretical methods, games, receipts become irrelevant.
It's not about a good or an excellent harmonisation, it's about the right one. And that's a fundamental difference.

Said that, i want to add that in addition to a theoretical knowledge, the most important part is to get your ears trained.
if you are able to hear inside the music you're about to write, then there is no longer the question of harmonisation.
Then it's rather a transcription of your imagination.


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## gsilbers (Feb 1, 2016)

dannymc said:


> hi guys thought this question would be best suited as an extension to this original post of mine rather than starting a new. so my question is in regards chord progressions.
> 
> i've learned so far (rightly or wrongly) that many cues are often started with a chord progression usually 4 or 8 of them. then from that chord progression a number of melodies often 2 or 3 are devised from that chord progression and orchestrated throughout the cue. my question is, does the underlining chord progression of the cue usually remain the same and its actually just the top line and counter melodies that are the variation? or could one cue have multiple chord progressions in one cue or is that over kill?
> 
> ...


I liked this book:

http://www.jacksmalley.com/com-ab.htm

it help me out on the theory side a lot.


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## dannymc (Feb 2, 2016)

> I liked this book:
> 
> http://www.jacksmalley.com/com-ab.htm
> 
> it help me out on the theory side a lot.



hey thanks gsilbers, i'll check that book out. 

Danny


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## Will Blackburn (Jun 25, 2017)

Excellent info on here. Own Composition 1 by Mike and it's great.

One trap i regularly fall into when working within a DAW is that it subconsciously forces me to be less creative and focus too much on theory rather than the actual music. It makes my workflow more robotic and generally less productive. The method Hanu explains above and below is a workflow that alot of the time i complete forget about, but when i do it that way my music always comes out way more original and truer to my inner voice. And it comes naturally that way without havng to go crazy thinking of all the theoretical choices.





Hanu_H said:


> Hey Danny,
> 
> When writing orchestral music, I normally don't think about the chords at all. I like to start with a melody and then play the melody on your right hand and start composing the bassline with your left hand. Then you are not thinking the chords all the time and you can be more creative with the bassline. After that, I start harmonizing the main melody. Let's say I use V1 for the melody and basses for the bassline. Then I take V2 and harmonize the melody with it. 3rd is the most common interval but you can use what ever you like, as long as it works with your melody and bassline. Sometimes you find a nice harmony that doesn't fit with your bassline, then you just need to change the bass to more suitable one. When you are happy with that, you can start thinking about third harmony on the melody or the accompaniment. This is where I really start to think chords. You already have 3 notes playing in your harmony. Sometimes bass can play same notes as your melody, then there is only 2 notes. Let's say the melody and bass is played legato. Now take cellos and play a staccato line which fills the chords and brings some movement with a rhytmic figure. Let's say your V1 and basses are playing a 3rd and V2 are playing 5th, then cellos could play the tonic to make the chord solid. This gives you an easy way to alter the harmony as you go. Let's think that we are in Cm. You got Eb as 3rd and G as 5th. If you add the cellos you got C as well. But what if you play Bb with your cellos instead of C? Then the chord is no longer Cm but Eb. You can do this all day and get just the right flavor to your melodies without thinking the chords too much. Just pile some 3rds on top of each other and make your melodies shine.
> 
> -Hannes


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## Rowy (Jun 26, 2017)

dannymc said:


> what is the professional method to this technique? thanks guys



Try "Ludwig": http://www.write-music.com/


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## mikehamm123 (Jul 4, 2017)

dannymc said:


> i have my melody lines but i've no idea where to start with chords other than just trying out different combinations which i'm guessing is not the optimum way of composing



How so? Compositional 'rules' can provide scaffolding but in the end you have to use your ear.

Sometimes I find myself in uncharted waters (i.e. I've gotten to a place where there are no clear-cut 'chords' being used. Sometimes that's my best stuff).

What I've been pondering lately--one aspect of music is the direction or momentum of the different elements--melody, harmony, rhythm. How they will lean or pull in a certain direction. 

Sometimes the magic happens when the pull of the harmony and the pull of the melody converge into a 'thing' where the the two don't make sense as an isolated vertical slice of notes, but work as an unexpected convergence of forces.


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## dannymc (Jul 4, 2017)

> How so? Compositional 'rules' can provide scaffolding but in the end you have to use your ear.



well maybe its fine, but for someone who has to only write by ear and doesn't have the theory it doesn't feel like a comfortable position to be in if you get to those moments in a piece where you dont know where to go next. i felt having the theory would help as you would know what chords usually follow which melodies for the best harmonies etc.

as an engineer it kinda feels like driving a car without understanding whats going on under the bonnet. very possible of course but you'll often find the best drivers have an intimate knowledge of the physics and mechanics that go into making a car drive.

Danny


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## thov72 (Jul 4, 2017)

After looking again at this thread I really find it funny that some people are overlecturing "a bit". I mean, someone asks a simple question which shows he doesn´t know much but would like to know more to get started and guys start firing away like hell. Keep it simple, everyone.


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## Replicant (Jul 4, 2017)

thov72 said:


> After looking again at this thread I really find it funny that some people are overlecturing "a bit". I mean, someone asks a simple question which shows he doesn´t know much but would like to know more to get started and guys start firing away like hell. Keep it simple, everyone.



A simple question where the answer can lead you down a pretty deep rabbit hole.

Like, you could just say "use triads that contain the notes of your melody" and leave it at that

but we all know there is and can be a lot more to it


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## mikehamm123 (Jul 4, 2017)

dannymc said:


> well maybe its fine, but for someone who has to only write by ear and doesn't have the theory it doesn't feel like a comfortable position to be in if you get to those moments in a piece where you dont know where to go next.



I agree. I guess my bias is--when I first started in music, I learned a fair amount of theory and got hung up on the rules--'correct' notes, i.e. what they 'should be'. That was my own personal trap.

Now I write by ear far more and sometimes don't even think about what the chords are. So we all start from different directions...


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## rJames (Jul 4, 2017)

For me how to harmonize comes from the answer to the question, "what is the rhythm?"
Your melody could be moving slowly, a note per bar or per 2 bars, while your very, very soft undulating rhythm could be playing an African rhythm or straight 16ths or 1/4 notes. Or a loud rhythm or anything in between in an infinite variety of sparse to frenetic ...
Point is that you can think of all of these parts as melodies in a sense cause each part has a purpose. As long as they don't clash when you play them all at once, you've got something. And they will probably, if they come from your imagination, have a cultural imperative that will create your progression.


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## Michael Antrum (Jul 5, 2017)

As I travel a lot, I 'listen' to the music in my head, includung harmonisations. When I get it right in my head, I'll then sit at a keyboard and pick out the notes and harmonisations and write them down. I literally plink at the keyboard until it matches the music in my head.

As I've done this more and more I've become better and better at this - to the point I can sometimes write the music down without being at the keyboard (in pencil mind) - unless I'm doing something a bit more complex.

One thing, Mike Verta suggested that it's better to use pencil and paper, rather than a scoring program. My God was he ever right. When I'm stuck in a hotel somewhere I use a piano app on my iPad to check my pitch, and sit in a bar with a cold one working it into notation.

I still find it best to refine on a full size piano though - as you get those happy accidents (no not that kind) where you'll hit a bum note or two and find a really nice chord. When you do that write it down so you can use it again.

Oh yeah,, and learn your scales and basic chords. It looks daunting at first - but there are only twelve notes and when you have then under your fingers you'll find it the best investment of your time you'll ever make.


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## dannymc (Jul 5, 2017)

> Oh yeah,, and learn your scales and basic chords. It looks daunting at first - but there are only twelve notes and when you have then under your fingers you'll find it the best investment of your time you'll ever make.



i know a good lot of these as i learnt piano up to grade 3. the thing about piano lessons is i never once had a class on how to compose or even a class on harmony or chords. i had to ask my piano teacher during a class at grade 2 would she teach me the chords of a particular track. i'm not sure why there was such resistance to teaching this. maybe thats at a more advanced level but if it is i think the system is wrong. i just got bored with all the constant learning of scales and learning 3 pieces off like a robot. even most pop music these days use chords so i dont know why this is not something that's thought in the early stages of piano lessons/grades. or maybe i just need to find a new piano teacher that teach in a less traditional way. 

Danny


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## rJames (Jul 5, 2017)

I 


dannymc said:


> i know a good lot of these as i learnt piano up to grade 3. the thing about piano lessons is i never once had a class on how to compose or even a class on harmony or chords. i had to ask my piano teacher during a class at grade 2 would she teach me the chords of a particular track. i'm not sure why there was such resistance to teaching this. maybe thats at a more advanced level but if it is i think the system is wrong. i just got bored with all the constant learning of scales and learning 3 pieces off like a robot. even most pop music these days use chords so i dont know why this is not something that's thought in the early stages of piano lessons/grades. or maybe i just need to find a new piano teacher that teach in a less traditional way.
> 
> Danny


I think they mostly teach piano wrong. My daughter won't let me show her anything, can play Gershwin but can't just sit down and play.


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## dannymc (Jul 6, 2017)

rJames said:


> I
> 
> I think they mostly teach piano wrong. My daughter won't let me show her anything, can play Gershwin but can't just sit down and play.



yeah not being able to sit down and play was when i realised this method of learning was not for me. telling friends and family you played piano and done exams in the royal academies sounded impressive but then when we went anywhere if there was a piano in the corner of a room i would be asked to play something and i couldnt. well except for the 2 or 3 mono-tone tracks i had learnt off for the previous grade.

its only when i started learning chords and chord progresions myself that i began to see the value in scales and how it would help with the art of composing.

i guess most people who learn piano dont learn with the aim of being a composer but instead more likely a classical pianist.

Danny


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## trumpoz (Jul 6, 2017)

I suppose learning thoery and 'rules' as such provides a grounding on which to experiment and grow from. How does music mover forward? Through people pushing boundaries and breaking the rules of the day. 

Although a thorough understanding of music theory will not automatically mean that you write 'better' music, the knowledge can help generate source material to work with.


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## Puzzlefactory (Jul 6, 2017)

Funny that I just spotted this thread as last night I was wondering about the same problem.

Especially when you start using more complicated harmonies. Like a Cmin9th chord had the same notes in it as Gmin chord. So when layering a harmony under a melody, which would you use.

I guess trial and error is the way to go (with maybe a after thought of eventual orchestration too).


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## mikehamm123 (Jul 6, 2017)

Often I will 'hear' the next chord as a distant sound, like trying to understand words barely heard from afar. Theory helps me know the different options, i.e. what should or usually works, and why. But my ear makes the call. 

If I 'hear' an E flat in the bass of a Gm chord, and it works, I do a little happy dance but don't get too hung up on what to call the chord or how likely it was to be 'predicted' by rules of harmony. Again I see theory as scaffolding, but I'm glad I know as much of it as I do.


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## mac (Jul 6, 2017)

dannymc said:


> i know a good lot of these as i learnt piano up to grade 3. the thing about piano lessons is i never once had a class on how to compose or even a class on harmony or chords. i had to ask my piano teacher during a class at grade 2 would she teach me the chords of a particular track. i'm not sure why there was such resistance to teaching this. maybe thats at a more advanced level but if it is i think the system is wrong. i just got bored with all the constant learning of scales and learning 3 pieces off like a robot. even most pop music these days use chords so i dont know why this is not something that's thought in the early stages of piano lessons/grades. or maybe i just need to find a new piano teacher that teach in a less traditional way.
> 
> Danny



I can see why scales > chords. I'd say once you know your scales and intervals, you can then combine the notes together and _make_ a chord a lot easier. 

I'm pretty much self taught btw, and never got into learning chords, I just combined notes and fingering patterns. I'm also pretty crap.


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## Mike Marino (Jul 6, 2017)

I think listening, transcribing , and comparing your transcription to the actual score can work wonders (over time). Then repeat, repeat, repeat. What you learn will eventually work it's way into your writing (if you spend enough time on it).


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## Richard Wilkinson (Jul 7, 2017)

Listening is a hugely important thing for this. I had piano & trumpet lessons to grade 8, but was always improvising and listening as a separate thing. Always playing Bowie or Elton john or tv themes and rewinding to work out harmonies etc - sooner or later you recognise what works, what gets used often, and what kind of tonalities and timbres you like. 
It's like Mike Verta eulogising about transcribing. If you listen and play, listen and play etc to the point where you can hear the chords and their relationships then you should be able to play the stuff you can hear, and from there you can improvise.


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## thov72 (Jul 7, 2017)

Puzzlefactory said:


> Especially when you start using more complicated harmonies. Like a Cmin9th chord had the same notes in it as Gmin chord. So when layering a harmony under a melody, which would you use.


the bass note CAN determine with chord it is. Guitar player plays Gmaj chord. Bass player plays C. guitar player loses bass player wins


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## trumpoz (Jul 7, 2017)

Puzzlefactory said:


> Funny that I just spotted this thread as last night I was wondering about the same problem.
> 
> Especially when you start using more complicated harmonies. Like a Cmin9th chord had the same notes in it as Gmin chord. So when layering a harmony under a melody, which would you use.
> 
> I guess trial and error is the way to go (with maybe a after thought of eventual orchestration too).


Its not really trial and error with orchestration. There are some accepted norms with chord voicing that relate to physics - as in certain voicings will always sound muddy. Ill post a bit more on this when I wake up more.

A Cmin9 chord may have a G Bb and D in it but it functions differently Gmin chord. What makes it Cmin9 is the C Eb, Bb and D. If you orchestrate it as a Gmin chord then the function will change completely.


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Jul 7, 2017)

dannymc said:


> well maybe its fine, but for someone who has to only write by ear and doesn't have the theory it doesn't feel like a comfortable position to be in if you get to those moments in a piece where you dont know where to go next. i felt having the theory would help as you would know what chords usually follow which melodies for the best harmonies etc.
> 
> as an engineer it kinda feels like driving a car without understanding whats going on under the bonnet. very possible of course but you'll often find the best drivers have an intimate knowledge of the physics and mechanics that go into making a car drive.
> 
> Danny


I also did not come from theory background. But I have spent a few years trying to learn a little more all the time.
I would say that this is a question of being faithful to the passion you have to write the music, even when you want to give up keep pressing on.

I have not made music in over a year now, well not properly (working on someone else project right now)
Also spend some of my time playing to practice.

But it is true that in the end the theory is the framework, but in the moment it is more about what you can translate from your mind to paper.
I would say that is the case in most things in life.

I work in IT and when I am in the thick of it, I am not applying my text books in my mind, I am using my hands on experience and dynamic and flexible approach to complete the task.

I tend to start on all kinds of different things, sometimes melodies, harmonies, baselines, drum beats etc
I think it is good to try something you have not before as a starting point as well, helps you expand your approaches.

All the advice here is great, train your ears, work on interpreting your mental pieces and build a toolbox that is going to work for your workflow and approach

Above all, be faithful to keep pushing on with learning and trying new methods and techniques


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## Puzzlefactory (Jul 8, 2017)

trumpoz said:


> Its not really trial and error with orchestration. There are some accepted norms with chord voicing that relate to physics - as in certain voicings will always sound muddy. Ill post a bit more on this when I wake up more.
> 
> A Cmin9 chord may have a G Bb and D in it but it functions differently Gmin chord. What makes it Cmin9 is the C Eb, Bb and D. If you orchestrate it as a Gmin chord then the function will change completely.




What I meant though, is that if you've written a melody using the notes from Gmin, when you're trying to put a harmony underneath it you could just as easily use a Cmin9 chord. So that's when a bit of trial and error comes in.


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## Richard Wilkinson (Jul 8, 2017)

Puzzlefactory said:


> What I meant though, is that if you've written a melody using the notes from Gmin, when you're trying to put a harmony underneath it you could just as easily use a Cmin9 chord. So that's when a bit of trial and error comes in.



But you don't write things in isolation like that - don't you hear the melody in its harmonic context before you write? If I'm improvising or sketching I'm playing harmonic and melodic stuff together. Very rarely one without the other


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## Puzzlefactory (Jul 8, 2017)

Sometimes, sometimes not. 

But that's not the point of the thread. I thought the discussion was about putting chords underneath an established melody.


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## muk (Jul 8, 2017)

There are various techniques, one is trial and error. Something that is often overlooked: proper voice leading can often lead you to finding interesting harmonies. Sometimes you have a progression of chords in mind but can't find an elegant solution to voice leading. That would be a case were I would go 'I wanted Gmin, but I can't figure out proper voice leading. Lets try Cmin9 instead'. And boom, problem with voice leading solved. And almost always that is for the better of the harmony too.
Studying Bach chorales can really help here. It is the exact same problem: how do you harmonize a given melody? (that's how the chorales work. The melodies were given, but not the harmony) So, pick a chorale melody and harmonize it. Then study what Bach did with the same melody. You will learn a ton - and no, Bach's harmonies are anything but dated. The chorales are very short pieces too, so it takes very little time to do one.


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## Puzzlefactory (Jul 8, 2017)

Yeah Mike Verta talked about doing Bach Chorales in music school...


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## rJames (Jul 8, 2017)

Puzzlefactory said:


> Sometimes, sometimes not.
> 
> But that's not the point of the thread. I thought the discussion was about putting chords underneath an established melody.


Agreed. It's a no-brained to drop the bass to an Eb when you already have a triad (Gm in this case) in the treble. And you can drop the bass down to a C from the Eb. Sometimes you can find the spice you need by skipping the Eb and jumping down directly to the C from the Gm in treble. And as everyone has mentioned, it all depends on how low the Gm is to begin with. If the Gm is up in the stratosphere, options multiply. You could use any of the Gm chord tones, Eb or C (in the bass) without even having to think about it. The bass could also walk scalewise through those tones. You can also force almost any type of chord progression underneath your melody even if it forces you to change a note in your melody by a tone. That's why they have an eraser on the other end of your pencil. I personally don't like to use a progression but rather let the voice leading, rhythm and the stuff I'm hearing in my head to drive the harmony. But, to be honest, the audience wants to hear a familiar chord progression...sadly.


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## muk (Jul 8, 2017)

Puzzlefactory said:


> Yeah Mike Verta talked about doing Bach Chorales in music school...



Didn't like it?


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## Puzzlefactory (Jul 8, 2017)

muk said:


> Didn't like it?



I don't think he gave an opinion either way, just that he studied it at school. 

So far from watching his videos and reading his posts, he doesn't much care for music theory but then again positively encourages people to study the work of other composers. 
So who knows?


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## rJames (Jul 8, 2017)

dannymc said:


> hi guys,
> 
> how does one know are even busk out support chords that will fit the melody without changing the nature and mood of the melody?


Stop thinking about chords.


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## mikehamm123 (Jul 8, 2017)

rJames said:


> Stop thinking about chords.



I do less and less. Its more like navigating the course of a river.

Where do you want to go, and how do you want to get there?

But if you want to go from Gm to Ab, its good to know that Cm or Eb or Fm are good candidates. But more I think of it as, does something with an e flat or an a flat note push you towards that Ab in a better way or with the right flavor for the piece? Voice leading.


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## dannymc (Jul 8, 2017)

rJames said:


> Stop thinking about chords.



i think using chords for somebody such as myself who is not doing this very long is like swimming with arm bands. i've only now had to get out of my comfort zone for a recent brief were the reference tracks were full of harmonic tones and counter melodies. playing block chords just wasn't cutting it and it just sounded amateur. so i have started to think of voicing and voices of independent lines and now i'm starting to understand how one creates more professional sounding scores. still looooooooootttss to learn thou. 

Danny


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## rJames (Jul 8, 2017)

I made a big pronouncement and should probably take it back cause everything does come down to chords and theory eventually. And if you are emulating something it's easy and correct to analyze it via chords. And everyone is emulating so that probably is the way to go. 
But why do there have to be triads in your thought process?
Think about chords without 3rds or 5ths or 7ths and you open up possibilities. 
What about a chord without the root? Things become more ambiguous and fluid. 
Every vertical moment can be reverse engineered to see what chord it is (or most likely is) but that chord or chord fragment doesn't really matter if it sounds good. 
The bass is providing gravity for the structure on top. Block chords are bad Frenetic chaos is bad. Your creation is somewhere in between. Move the bass, large or small jumps. Voice lead the rest. You can start with bass and percussion for some cues. Start with melody on others (then add bass). Always thinking about rhythm. What rhythm do you want in the bass, in the melody, in the accompanying middle. It doesn't necessarily have to add up to a chord as you analyze each vertical moment.


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