# Question About "The Dark Knight"



## SridharS (May 19, 2013)

I was re-watching the Dark Knight movie today and noticed something a bit odd. About halfway through the movie, there's a scene where Gotham's finest are being attacked by the Joker while transporting Harvey Dent. This scene goes on for about 10-15 minutes, and none of it is orchestrated! I think that in an action scene like this some music would do wonders to enhance the scene, but there's no music. I don't understand why they did this, would anyone mind explaining it to me?


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## MikeH (May 19, 2013)

By orchestrated do you mean scored? 

You don't have to have wall-to-wall music in a movie.

Sometimes the most powerful musical moments occur when there's no music preceding it.


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## SridharS (May 19, 2013)

MikeH @ Sun May 19 said:


> By orchestrated do you mean scored?
> 
> You don't have to have wall-to-wall music in a movie.




Thank you, I do mean, "scored."

I'm aware that you don't need to have wall-to-wall music, but I don't know why the creators of the movie chase to not have that scene scored vs. having the scene scored.


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## Tanuj Tiku (May 19, 2013)

I think this was an amazing choice. The scene is so much more without the music. But then also notice where the music kicks in and why - that minor chord when the van turns.

Also, the overhead shot of the city where the choppers and police vehicles are on their way (just before the whole action starts) and the jokers theme kicks in almost, taking over the entire city - great effect!

Once again, the music kicks in when Batman's new bike is introduced.

You wont feel these moments if there is wall-to-wall music. 

But there are also moments when the music takes over everything. For example in The Dark Knight Rises, just before Bane is about to blast the city to hell, the drums are just pumping and they even drown the mayor's talk about the police operation being a training exercise just as he is about to enter the stadium to watch his son. 

Again, excellent choice and used to great effect. Then the blasts happen and the visual imagery is so powerful that very little music is needed. Then the music kicks in again when Bane starts talking at some point.

Good study for scoring.


Tanuj.


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## Rctec (May 19, 2013)

It's called "good spotting for maximum drama..."


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## MarkS_Comp (May 19, 2013)

Rctec @ Sun May 19 said:


> It's called "good spotting for maximum drama..."



Gee, I thought it was called "cool - less work for me!"


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## Inductance (May 19, 2013)

I read somewhere that originally this scene was supposed to have music--maybe the cue from "Like a Dog Chasing Cars," I think. But in the end they decided that it worked best without music. I think it worked. There's a lot happening, and a lot of different sound effects in that scene (the police truck's engine, the Joker's truck's engine, the Tumbler's engine, the gunshots, the bullets hitting metal, the crashing, the explosions, etc.). IMO, These effects on their own worked well as a soundtrack.


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## park bench (May 19, 2013)

It always reminded me of THE chariot race in Ben-Hur.


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## Inductance (May 19, 2013)

park bench @ Sun May 19 said:


> It always reminded me of THE chariot race in Ben-Hur.



+1

Wow, I hadn't thought of that. Excellent comparison!


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## musophrenic (May 19, 2013)

A similar choice to that first Bane-Batman fight in TDKR. To me, it worked really well as a point of focus, and highlighted how pathetic and desparate Batman's attempts were after all these years out of action (and the inevitable conclusion of that encounter). Music only comes back in (as far as I remember) after the last blow.


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## Guy Rowland (May 19, 2013)

Rctec @ Sun May 19 said:


> It's called "good spotting for maximum drama..."



Ooooh there's a whole thread to be had on spotting - it's so rarely discussed and is there any more important decision in terms of the score?

I also nominate the Death Star attack in Star Wars IV (the stunning Battle For Yavin on the CD is two cues joined together - there's a long stretch in between with no music. The whole thing is sublime).


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## Rctec (May 20, 2013)

No kidding aside, It was design very much like that.
And there is music under the Bane fight. but beautifully abstract. Thank You, Mel Wesson. (actually, i love that piece)


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## dcoscina (May 20, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Sun May 19 said:


> Rctec @ Sun May 19 said:
> 
> 
> > It's called "good spotting for maximum drama..."
> ...



I agree that spotting is so important. I remember watching Papillon and there's no music for the first 20 minutes of the film. Not until the prisoners reach French Guyana does the music begin and on a brass cluster no less! The entire cue is violent as one of the younger prisoners driven by fever and desperation, tries to escape and is shot in the head. I remember how Goldsmith used dissonance so effectively in this scene. He also introduces the Main Theme but in a perverse, oppressive variation. Frank Shaffner directed this film as he did with Planet of the Apes, another terrifically scored film by Goldsmith. 

Sometimes it's not what you put in but what you take out. 

Back to The Dark Knight, I thought that scene was perfect left unsecured.


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## Dean (May 20, 2013)

Rctec @ Sun May 19 said:


> It's called "good spotting for maximum drama..."



Like many others here I agree that spotting in itself is a whole other artform altogether,writing great music that works for the project is a major challenge,(and the most important thing),but where and when to put it is another kettle of fish especially in a 2+ hour film project.

Hans,if you ever have any more time to offer any insights/advice or nuggets on the subject of spotting it would be priceless(as others said this is rarely ever discussed.)
Did you find spotting difficult at first ie: too much music,giving away too much too soon,
wrong tone,pace?

Someone mentioned a thread on Spotting,I think thats a great idea!
Dean.


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## Luca Capozzi (May 20, 2013)

Rctec @ Sun May 19 said:


> It's called "good spotting for maximum drama..."



+1

I used to do some "scoring" for theater shows, and this is very important to spot the right moments where you don't place music. In this way the actors could build "tension" that reach climax when you start the music in that precise moment... and when this happens on a live show, even few ms can make the difference between a great dramatic moment and a "drama fail" 

my 2c,
Luca


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## Saxer (May 20, 2013)

the classic 'music starts after the boom'
http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=GbpUcAI86MY (http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=rela ... bpUcAI86MY)


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## Kralc (May 20, 2013)

Interesting thread.

I just watched Jack Reacher last night, and of the four action sequences, none of them had any music. The first two were smaller brawls, and I guess it fit alright, but the car chase and the final fight were really drawn out. Just long scenes that felt like they lacked any developement . Unfortunately 3 minutes of car engine sounds and zero talking doesn't really drive the action for me. 

In the TDK, the sequence has a lot more progression, and some dialog. And maybe the lack of music has more effect because of what we've experienced already.


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## Sasje (May 20, 2013)

If it's done correctly I wouldn't notice it. Just like brilliant editing. And that's exactly what happened. It's because you brought it up, otherwise I would never suspected it. I can't even remember this was the case. I'll have to watch it again. :D


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## MarkS_Comp (May 20, 2013)

Kralc @ Mon May 20 said:


> I just watched Jack Reacher last night



Ha! so did I!!!!



Kralc @ Mon May 20 said:


> but the car chase and the final fight were really drawn out. Just long scenes that felt like they lacked any developement . Unfortunately 3 minutes of car engine sounds and zero talking doesn't really drive the action for me.



Same here - I actually noticed there was no music - which is not supposed to happen. In my book, that was the wrong decision. There should have been music in the car chase scene.


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## Tatu (May 20, 2013)

MarkS_Comp @ Tue May 21 said:


> Same here - I actually noticed there was no music - *which is not supposed to happen*. In my book, that was the wrong decision. There should have been music in the car chase scene.



I kind of like scenes like that for the very same reason. I think it helps to emphasize and bring action/violence closer, when there's no epic horns banging all over the place and drawing the characters as immortals. Good sound design doing the build up instead of music, can sometimes be the best "music".


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## Simon Ravn (May 21, 2013)

MarkS_Comp @ Tue May 21 said:


> Kralc @ Mon May 20 said:
> 
> 
> > I just watched Jack Reacher last night
> ...



Funny - I thought it was a brilliant decision to rely on those powerful engine sounds etc. to make that scene more intense. Generally, I find car chase scenes boring after a short time unless there is something extra in it (comic relief, new ideas which are well thought out, great, varied locations etc - I think "Knight and Day" is an example of some of the most engaging and varied, "non boring" car chasing in recent history of filmmaking). Jack Reacher didn't quite get there, but the decision to leave out music and do some really great sound effects/mixing work surely made it better than had it been - generically - scored. Same thing with the t-rex attack in Jurassic Park (no comparison besides that though). The lack of music can sometimes be very powerful.


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## Kralc (May 21, 2013)

Tatu @ Tue May 21 said:


> I kind of like scenes like that for the very same reason. I think it helps to emphasize and bring action/violence closer, when there's no epic horns banging all over the place and drawing the characters as immortals. Good sound design doing the build up instead of music, can sometimes be the best "music".


That was the problem though, the sound design was exactly the same as an fff all the time orchestra. It was just heavy revving car engines. It wasn't telling any story.
I thought about the start of Drive, where the car is softly running. Then when the cops catch on, it revs up like a monster. There's dynamics, there's life. Not just "Brrrmm, Brrrmm, Sreechh.."

This sequence just felt like a big chunk. Music would have broken it up, created development. There were such perfect points to start and end the cue, it was jarring for me when nothing happened.

But I think the no music effect was overused by the time we got to the car chase. (and then the quarry fight) It would have been more effective if it was the first time it was done. 

The bar fight would've also been a cool place to have music. We, the audience, know that this is going to be no problem for Tom. He's cocky about it, it's not tense it all. It's comedic almost, music playing on that and hitting the action would have worked with what's happening.


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## Tatu (May 21, 2013)

Kralc @ Tue May 21 said:


> Tatu @ Tue May 21 said:
> 
> 
> > I kind of like scenes like that for the very same reason. I think it helps to emphasize and bring action/violence closer, when there's no epic horns banging all over the place and drawing the characters as immortals. Good sound design doing the build up instead of music, can sometimes be the best "music".
> ...



Hold on.. did they do dubstep in that scene? :D 

I can't quite remember the scene, so can't speak of it, but in general - if there's no music - I think that post can do wonders with sound, cuts etc. Some it may wear out, some it doesn't. I wonder if that particula scene would've worked better, if they had started the scene with the camera a bit farther from the action and bring it closer towards the ending, making it more logical for the brrrrmmm brrrrmmm's to pick up in volume as well..



Kralc @ Tue May 21 said:


> This sequence just felt like a big chunk. Music would have broken it up, created development. There were such perfect points to start and end the cue, it was jarring for me when nothing happened.



The rooftops/street chase from Skyfall's opening was a great example. Newman changed the rhythms, tempo and key(?) according to the level where the chase and action happened, if I remember correctly.

PS: Tom don't need no music, he's playah.


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## Kejero (May 21, 2013)

In my approach to spotting, the first question for every scene is: does it work without music? If it doesn't, it either means that it was always meant to have music as a part of the scene, or that the filmmaker failed to achieve their intention and it needs to be fixed with music. That last situation can be challenging. The one where a scene works great (or best) without music, is... convenient


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