# Pathetique and Walstein



## Guy Bacos (Jul 17, 2009)

*2 Beethoven masterpieces on sampled piano*

_*Pathetique Sonata (1st mov)*_

http://www.guybacos.com/audio/Pathetique%20distant.mp3


_*Walstein Sonata (1st mov)*_

http://www.guybacos.com/audio/Walstein%20distant.mp3


Guy
http://www.guybacos.com/


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## germancomponist (Jul 17, 2009)

WOW! Very realistic!

I have listend to the first one and will later listen to the other.

Man, do you sleep only at the end of a month, or when do you record all the pieces? (just joking)

Gunther


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## PolarBear (Jul 18, 2009)

Again, showcase. Please put these kind of threads to the proper subforum.

I responded that to Jay Bacal also some time ago, so no, it's not a bad day or agenda against you, Guy Bacos. It's about keeping things organized. What if everyone did this... the Sample Talk forum is not a demo section. Some developers and some users are blurring this more and more in the last months. But yeah, you'd probably get that extra post of attention here that won't occur in the proper section. How egoistic. :roll:


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## Przemek K. (Jul 18, 2009)

Sweeeeeeeeet. These reminded me that I played them too years ago.
But although I very much like Beethoven I really prefer Chopin.
If it's possible could you provide a demo of the Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op. 23.


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## mikebarry (Jul 18, 2009)

I am just going to ignore the pianist since this is obviously of quality. 

I really dislike how the piano sounds - I will get specific.

The upper range 2-3 octaves above middle C sounds voiced wrong, this is the explosive range on all modern pianos. It sounds very timid.

Is this an american steinway? If so I have never played one with such a timid ness that was not tweaked with.

More importantly the sustained tone and pedaling just sounds wrong. Not that painists technique but the sustains. The east west piano sounds better to my ears. Like after the initial attack it sounds different and thin and weak. 

I dont know thats just my opinion, not worth the price tag for me.

Guy good work though!


EDIT: Actually this is probably a Boserndoffer ? (spelling)


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 18, 2009)

I have moved this thread to Composition, Orchestration and Technique.


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 18, 2009)

PolarBear @ Sat Jul 18 said:


> Again, showcase. Please put these kind of threads to the proper subforum.
> 
> I responded that to Jay Bacal also some time ago, so no, it's not a bad day or agenda against you, Guy Bacos. It's about keeping things organized. What if everyone did this... the Sample Talk forum is not a demo section. Some developers and some users are blurring this more and more in the last months. But yeah, you'd probably get that extra post of attention here that won't occur in the proper section. How egoistic. :roll:



PolarBear, I despise your attitude here, before posting the 1st piano pieces I looked carefully on all the topics of this forum, I did not see one that was titled appropriately for this, the closest was composition review, Ned has moved to "Composition, Orchestration and Technique", which is fine with me, but I how am I suppose to guess that it's the better place to post this? So please keep your remark to yourself!


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## PolarBear (Jul 18, 2009)

I'm sorry for the tone I chose now. Not appropriate either. Being involved with the forums for several years now I guess it was too obvious from the tradition to me.

Perhaps a good time to rethink the names or descriptions of some subforums?


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 18, 2009)

Przemek K. @ Sat Jul 18 said:


> Sweeeeeeeeet. These reminded me that I played them too years ago.
> But although I very much like Beethoven I really prefer Chopin.
> If it's possible could you provide a demo of the Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op. 23.



I could do it but I'd need a few more request for that piece.


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## Przemek K. (Jul 18, 2009)

Guy Bacos @ Sat Jul 18 said:


> Przemek K. @ Sat Jul 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Sweeeeeeeeet. These reminded me that I played them too years ago.
> ...



Well, a few bumps wouldn't cut it, right?
I could do it myself but then I'd have to go for the lib too which I can't do right now.


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 18, 2009)

mikebarry @ Sat Jul 18 said:


> I am just going to ignore the pianist since this is obviously of quality.
> 
> I really dislike how the piano sounds - I will get specific.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your comments.

Well, this isn't a real grand, it is still sampled. I know there is still some tweaking to be done, the interface allows to alter the sound and effects other than distance perspectives. There are also EQ settings if you prefer your sound some other way, jazz, pop etc. I'm still learning this piano so my setting might not necessarily be the best. I think with time I'll be able to tweak some imperfections.

Having said that, let's be realistic here for a moment. If I had Michael Jackson's heritage I could have a beautiful studio in my house with a real grand and a technician willing to work free, and of course the piano tuner who should tune the piano before each session, ideally, also doing it for my eyes only. So if you have to pay for recording sessions, how much is it going to cost you to record just 1 piece? And if you make one noticeable mistake you have to start all over.

This way, I could do it in the leisure of my home, take my time, and not worry about any time costs and still get the full emotion the piece requires, I mean 100 velocities! That's a lot of dynamics! I don't want to make any comparisons to any other sampled piano brand, but since you mentioned one, I ask you, does it have any demos with such a wide range of dynamics and displaying as much emotion?

There is one bottom line, velocities = expression. Sure, some sampled pianos have a nice sound but after one measure you've just went through all the velocities.

My 2 cents.


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## mikebarry (Jul 18, 2009)

Guy it might sound good to you, it doesn't to me. The East West sounds better.
East West still has the pedaling problem thing but not so much the sustain problem.

Sorry ! 

o-[][]-o


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## germancomponist (Jul 18, 2009)

Oops, better or different?

And there is the GG Steinway, also nice and different.


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 18, 2009)

mikebarry @ Sat Jul 18 said:


> Guy it might sound good to you, it doesn't to me. The East West sounds better.
> East West still has the pedaling problem thing but not so much the sustain problem.
> 
> Sorry !
> ...



Well fine, keep the East West if that's what you like. I'm not trying to promote anything here and I'm not interested in making any comparisons, I'm just enjoying doing some demos on a piano I can express dynamics realistically. No more no less.


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## RiffWraith (Jul 18, 2009)

Heh, I find this funny. You guys are saying "the paino is good/the piano is not good" "EW's is better"...but what piano is it? :lol:


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## mikebarry (Jul 18, 2009)

Guy and you truly do fine work!


Just a matter of taste for me.


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 18, 2009)

RiffWraith @ Sat Jul 18 said:


> Heh, I find this funny. You guys are saying "the paino is good/the piano is not good" "EW's is better"...but what piano is it? :lol:



The demos I presented are done on Vienna Imperial.

Now I've just been through listening EW piano demos. No comments..... But ouch my ears!


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 18, 2009)

mikebarry @ Sat Jul 18 said:


> Guy it might sound good to you, it doesn't to me. The East West sounds better.
> East West still has the pedaling problem thing but not so much the sustain problem.
> 
> Sorry !
> ...



I saw your website.

Cinetoms, Drums of war Iron Guitars, I think refined piano is not your thing, stick to Iron Guitar.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 18, 2009)

:roll: :roll: :roll:


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 18, 2009)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Jul 18 said:


> :roll: :roll: :roll:



:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 18, 2009)

I'm sorry for over reacting I just have a problem with people who only find negative things to say. Especially about something that has so much good to talk about, but when it's all negative.... That's just me, sorry.


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## mikebarry (Jul 18, 2009)

Calm down bro. I think I was careful in my posts to not insult you at all.
I am entitled to my opinion about the piano. 

I also happen to have a BA in piano performance, you can hear my Rachmaninoff 2nd on the site.


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 18, 2009)

mikebarry @ Sat Jul 18 said:


> Calm down bro. I think I was careful in my posts to not insult you at all.
> I am entitled to my opinion about the piano.
> 
> I also happen to have a BA in piano performance, you can hear my Rachmaninoff 2nd on the site.



Can you give the link? I don't see it!


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## mikebarry (Jul 18, 2009)

http://www.cinesamples.com/about/

PS I am only replying because I have spent many hours at the keyboard and I just wanted to give my opinion on the matter.

I am not saying that the Imperial is junk either, I am taking price into consideration when making my judgment.


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 18, 2009)

mikebarry @ Sat Jul 18 said:


> http://www.cinesamples.com/about/
> 
> PS I am only replying because I have spent many hours at the keyboard and I just wanted to give my opinion on the matter.
> 
> I am not saying that the Imperial is junk either, I am taking price into consideration when making my judgment.



Well you are obviously a fine pianist and musician. But I must be honest, the sound of that piano on that mp3 (and it's a real one) is terrible, I'm sure it's due to the poor recording condition. So this is what I mean, Vienna Imperial could of sound a lot better with the full range of expression. And let's be honest, you know as well as I do that no other sampled piano could handle Rach 2 not even East West. I have a friend who was doing Rach 3 on Imperial, I heard the beginning, we both were very impressed.


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## mikebarry (Jul 18, 2009)

Agreed on all points.

It was recorded with my friends hand held - it is crap, and the piano was not to my taste either but it was the best of the three at the hall. I also have the Rach 3 recorded somewhere , while at university I did the 2/3 the Ravel 2 and Mozart 23.

Yes, sampled pianos are still far away in my opinion if you are going for that classical vibe. 

But it really does justice with that soft stuff (T. Newman).

I just like the tone of the EW stuff better then Vienna.

To me the best piano I have ever heard is from the Van Cliburn/Chicago recording of the Tchaikovsky's First.


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## PolarBear (Jul 18, 2009)

Guy Bacos @ Sat Jul 18 said:


> EW piano demos. No comments..... But ouch my ears!





Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Jul 18 said:


> :roll: :roll: :roll:





Guy Bacos @ Sat Jul 18 said:


> :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:





Guy Bacos @ Sat Jul 18 said:


> I just have a problem with people who only find negative things to say.



You have a problem with yourself? :D


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## PolarBear (Jul 18, 2009)

On behalf of the thread: One can hear a lot of hours went into this rendition (Pathetique). Yet I also dislike the piano sound in it, I just can't connect to the piece through it, some attacks, some harsh sound always stays in the way for me and is too prominent to let my mind take off from it. The different dynamics presented though are impressive.


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 18, 2009)

PolarBear @ Sat Jul 18 said:


> On behalf of the thread: One can hear a lot of hours went into this rendition (Pathetique). Yet I also dislike the piano sound in it, I just can't connect to the piece through it, some attacks, some harsh sound always stays in the way for me and is too prominent to let my mind take off from it. The different dynamics presented though are impressive.



Ok, meanwhile I'm enjoying it. Can't please everybody.


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 18, 2009)

mikebarry @ Sat Jul 18 said:


> Agreed on all points.
> 
> It was recorded with my friends hand held - it is crap, and the piano was not to my taste either but it was the best of the three at the hall. I also have the Rach 3 recorded somewhere , while at university I did the 2/3 the Ravel 2 and Mozart 23.
> 
> ...



Your a fine musician, so how can you deny what I'm saying about velocities? No matter how gorgeous the tone is, if you only have something like 8 velocity layers, there is no way in the world you can achieve expression, unless you want to use it as sparingly as a triangle.


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## mikebarry (Jul 18, 2009)

Velocities being recorded are important sure. For example a good pianist knows the sweet spot of the piano, which I would classify as "sotta voce" the singing voice for lyrical playing - this is why Steinway's are so popular, they all have this to a degree. There is also the projecting velocity range. 

To me what is the soul of the piano comes through the pedaling - both with the feet and fingers. I am missing that - it just sounds incomplete to me. A concert pianist has tricks like half pedaling, finger pedaling, half clearing, I just think I am missing that. Also I cannot put my finger on what bothers me about the sustain it just sounds incomplete also.

Did you eq this so that the C4 and C5 octaves are lessened in gain?


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 18, 2009)

When I talk about velocities I really mean contrasts between notes which is the basis of expression in everything we play on the piano or any other instruments, at least to me it is. You are talking about timbre and half pedal, pinky pedal, nose pedal.... that is getting pretty sophisticated for a sampled piano, no? Perhaps on an upgrade we"ll see that. I really think you are underestimating the importance of velocities though. I have tried all these sampled pianos and heard their demos, I cannot listen or play on them more then 10 sec unless it's hidden in the orchestra or used for 2 bars, anything beyond that, it's painful to my ears. I'm sure if you were to play on this piano you would change your mind. :D 

Anyway, I'd like to bounce a minute of the Pathetique with different settings and EQs, and perhaps you could help me in selecting the most realistic one?


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## mikebarry (Jul 18, 2009)

Why are you poking fun at my pedaling comments? Any decent concert or soundtrack pianist does all of this with out even thinking about it. I am stating this is what it will take to make a piano sample sound real. Sympathetic vibrations and half pedaling. 

East West is looking into this I read at their forum.

Anyway my girlfriend throughout college her dad was a master builder and tech for Steinway in Queens, so I know plenty about this subject aside from my classical studies.

Velocities velocities sure whatever I give you that those are fine I never had any problem with them to begin with. They are by far the easiest to accomplish. Everyone knows that you capture the instrument via sampling velocities. I don't understand your point. I am sure VSL did this very well - they do high quality work.

Can't you just accept that I don't like the sound of the piano and move on (the timbre, the recording, the sustains etc...? In fact I don't like most of the sounds of sampled pianos - VSL is not alone. I like the power of the east west stuff better.


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## mikebarry (Jul 18, 2009)

For reference:

http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZSt ... 7&s=143441

Here is a great sounding piano!


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 18, 2009)

Yes, but you also have what may be the greatest pianist in the world playing on it merging his expressive style with the good piano.
I'm not trying to convince you of anything, but I don't think you understand how velocities affects the timbre, Pollini is a good example. Even if East West does what you talked about, if they don't have more than 10 velocities it will still be good sparingly use only.


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 18, 2009)

Look I don't mean to be offensive or defensive, we probably all have different playing styles as well as our own criteria, it's just that for me velocities are of the upmost importance when I play.

o-[][]-o


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## mf (Aug 25, 2009)

velocities = expression

I'd like to pick a bit on this one. First, it is not true. If it were, then there's no expression (expressiveness) in Bach's music for harpsichord; and there's plenty, even in the total absence of dynamics.

But let's consider the aesthetics of Beethoven's times, specifically of his music for fortepiano. It so happens that, back then, the piano's dynamic range was somewhat narrow. And yet the expressiveness of such a piece as the Pathetique, when well played, is astounding -- therefore its expressiveness must stem from something else than a wide dynamics palette. Sure, dynamics is intrinsic part of that music's expressiveness, but its efficiency does not lie in some 100 velocity layers but rather in the proper use of much fewer dynamic levels. 

Here is a performance that, IMO, uses the right (narrow) range of dynamics, and uses it effectively. That is to say, meaningfully.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL0u9QXNvEg&feature=fvw

A good, expressive, interpretation is all about the interpreter will and capacity to convey a (the) message; when his focus is on that, then technicalities like dynamics will just follow and serve that goal; when the focus is not on that, then 10, 100, 128 or 1000 velocities won't make any difference.


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## Guy Bacos (Aug 25, 2009)

I think you haven't been following what's behind this "velocity = expression". Have you read from the beginning of the thread? I'll just refresh you in case you don't know what this is all about. Until now all sampled pianos was limited to a maximum of about 10 velocities, and many have less. Now if you think you can get a lot of expression with this much velocity than you will have to prove it to me. I have proven that you can get real expression with 100 velocities. Whether you like the sound of the piano or not that is a different story but we are talking about expression. And I don't need a lesson from someone who thinks he's going to give me a lesson on what is expression. Furthermore, I love Glenn Gould but personally I can't stand the way he started the Pathetique, it's too exaggerated, and I had as piano teacher one of the greatest Beethoven specialist and wrote a 600 pages book on the 32 piano sonatas. "Les 32 Sonates Pour Piano" de Paul Loyonnet.

As for your comment about Bach that is also bogus, cause Bach's music is ALL lyrical even when it's staccato, and it still needs expression, more tempered ok but it's not flat! 

The result of a masterful interpretation is something else, they work together and are 2 separate things as well. The way you're talking I don't think you know what expression is, a scale can be expressive, a simple arpeggio can be expressive when played with the right dynamics, maybe not to you but for most of the people it's like that!


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## germancomponist (Aug 25, 2009)

I do not understand what is to discuss about velocities.

The more you have, the better a sampled instrument comes to the real thing.

You are right, Guy!


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## nikolas (Aug 25, 2009)

Guy Bacos @ Sun Jul 19 said:


> When I talk about velocities I really mean contrasts between notes which is the basis of expression in everything we play on the piano or any other instruments, at least to me it is. You are talking about timbre and half pedal, pinky pedal, nose pedal.... that is getting pretty sophisticated for a sampled piano, no?


No, not really... (it's not getting too sophisticated).

Half pedaling, symp and sust resonance and other features are the core on what doesn't sound right on older sampled pianos. NOT the amount of velocity layers!

Music is hardly about dynamics alone!

You can define a note, but you need much much more than 1 attribute to do so:
pitch, octave, starting point, ending point (thus duration), dynamics, pedaling, tempo, etc. If you combine more than one note all these mingle with the rest of the notes on the piece and the relationship of these are what matter, NOT the individual notes.

You know this, and I'm not trying to preach, or teach, or anything like that.

The point is, however, that a piano with 8 velocities can CERTAINLY have more expression than one with 127 (pianoteq for example), only because the player will be better.

The matter of the recording and engineering I've already mentioned that I don't like the sound of the VSL piano (I think in almost every thread I've seen with this piano! :D). I love both sonatas and I have some questions about the performance, but this is a different issue than the one discussed at hand here.

I really don't like some of the performances that Glen Gould did on Beethoven (sonata No. 14, 3rd movement is extremely fast as well) and Bach, but this ends when I think of him as a performer: As a (semi-)composer and a personality he was FASCINATING!


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## Guy Bacos (Aug 25, 2009)

Anyway, think what you want, create expressive masterpieces with 8 velocities through your half pedals.


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## nikolas (Aug 25, 2009)

Guy,

As far as I'm concerned you're the one basing and discussing the 'superiority' of this piano, and you are judging it based only on the tons of velocities (which is all good, I assure you and I agree with you). The point that some of us are trying to make is that velocity layers (obviously almost) are not enough alone to create expression. That's all...

So let's take it to the grounds:

more velocity layers= Extra good, no doubt
more velocity layers= enough? Nope!

And on a more personal level, if I was to create masterpieces I would compose them, since I'm a composer!  Then again I've not done it yet, I think, so... I doubt I'll do it in the future...


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## Guy Bacos (Aug 25, 2009)

Ok, I'm not going to talk to a Pollini Level and the refined things involved with great interpretation. This is a concern with less people you think for sampled piano.

Of all the sampled piano pieces I've heard with around 6-8 velocities that is what I couldn't stand, the lack of subtle velocity changes. Now I'm talking about this and some people are getting excited and going to the other extreme with the ideal pianos, the ideal interpretation, the ideal pianist, my bad playing etc.. Of course there could be better! I'm not talking about perfection, just a vast improvement on expression going from 8 to 100 velocities. Now that is my personal opinion, I know a few people here don't agree and believe that Pollini or Gould would be able to do miracles with 8 velocities and a half pedal and what ever. As for me, for the current objective of my sampled world, who the hell cares about the half pedal? If you want to use the half pedal, get yourself a real piano! Meanwhile I'm expressing myself happily with these 100 velocities.


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## germancomponist (Aug 25, 2009)

Nikolas,

it is not based only on the tons of velocities, but in this way and all what you say it can only be better. Yes, no?


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## nikolas (Aug 25, 2009)

Gunther: Of course! tons of velocities is not bad. It's a huge plus. But it's not enough.

Guy: You have brought to the world of sampled piano the "Pathetique", "Waldstein", "Appasionata", and I think a few more. Your love for Beethoven is obvious and we share this love and cherish. I still play plenty of Beethoven sonatas.

But since you did bring these wonderful pieces on board, this is the comparison you get. Don't reduce the members here, some of us (plenty of us? all of us?) love classical music and there's nothing wrong with a comparison with Pollini or Gould (both of which I don't particularly like as performers. I prefer Kemph largely for Beethoven works! OT...)

I don't like this, but there's no way around it I think. I use GAST and pianoteq for my piano playing. I don't remember how many velocity layers GAST has, but I like the sound very much. Pianoteq does not have velocity layers, since it's modelled. Both of these pianos are in my posession, not because of the velocity layers, but for other issues.

My dissagreement is that 100 velocity layers is not a VAST improvement, but an improvement, non the less. There's no doubt that few velocity layers have 'gaps' which can be heard and can be very very annoying, but I think that we have grown beyond this point for a little while now and newer versions of sampled pianos do not suffer greatly from that... (?)

Again, on a personal level, now that I've found the many velocity layers and its solution, what I am missing is the half pedaling, the recapture of the note, etc... (In my own works, where at some points it is important). Everyone to their own I guess... :-/


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## Guy Bacos (Aug 26, 2009)

Nikolas,

Yes, I introduced these big sampled Beethoven piano sonatas on line but it was in the context of the sampled world of music not for the Van Cliburn Piano Competition, or for a Carnegie Hall Concert, it was just to show that it can handle big classical pieces, to a certain degree of course. You're taking this way too seriously. I don't think someone is going to present himself to an audition at Julliard and expect to play on a sampled piano!

Back to reality. As I said, I've tried and heard many other sampled pianos and was extremely disappointed by not being able to express myself while playing. With Vienna Imperial it was not the same at all, my Prelude Improv pieces are the first testimony to this, they would sound totally flat with any other sampled piano and I wouldn't of bothered recording them, now I have pieces I will licensed for lounge, restaurant, hotel etc.. scenes. I am talking at a practical level, not just theoretical. I have written 3 piano ensemble pieces with this piano, some of my best work, I wouldn't of dared trying that with other sampled pianos. So for me, I'm plenty happy and as I said I am expressing myself happily with this piano.

I'm sure the next generation of sampled piano or an upgrade from VI will be even more realistic with half pedal and I will embrace it, if you prefer to wait that's your choice, until then I'm very happy with this.

And by the way, VI does have sympathy resonance, I've already demonstrated an audio test of this in the past, it's actually quite impressive. Perhaps the next piano piece I'll write will be to demonstrate this.


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## madbulk (Aug 26, 2009)

I'll take the other side, Nik. I think 100 velocities is every bit as big a deal as Guy insists. Not just for expression but for outright realism. I think we all agree true realism may be light years away or even unattainable, but I think this is a leap.
I don't love the sound either by the way. But the last time I was in a room with twenty Steinways and I didn't like the sound of 15 of em. Only five could be MY piano. Really only one! Pianos are awfully personal. 
So taste aside, I find this a more convincing fake than others. Great job, Guy and Vienna.


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## madbulk (Aug 26, 2009)

The real question is, "What key is the Waldstein in?"


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## nikolas (Aug 26, 2009)

C?

BTW, I have the same 'problem' with Pianoteq. It doens't have velocity layers, but my usual comment is this: "Playable as hell, the most playable VI piano I've ever laid my hands on, but the sound is not there yet".

It's a gigantic leap, no doubt (the velocities in VI), but not enough for me. I think that it's the sound and the recording, btw. I've also heard a few stuff from Jay (Scriabin etude and other) and I still didn't like it. :-/ (just to make sure that Guy, knows it's nothing personal, whatsoever!)


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## Guy Bacos (Aug 26, 2009)

To each his own, as they say.


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## madbulk (Aug 26, 2009)

nikolas @ Wed Aug 26 said:


> C?



That's what it says on your scorecard. But it has always driven me nuts.


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## germancomponist (Aug 26, 2009)

Guy,

I have an idea. 

Perhaps, could you post one midifile with one of your piano works?

So the others can let play their favourite piano the same piece and post it here and we all can do comparisons. 

Sure, they all have to edit it here and there to let their fav shine best. :-D


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## Guy Bacos (Aug 26, 2009)

Gunther, I'm not very optimistic that they will get good results even with all the adjustments possible. Take a look at a compressed shot of part of the Pathetique, it clearly demands a wider range of dynamics than 8 velocities.


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## Hannes_F (Aug 26, 2009)

Guy, what is the y-axis? Frequency or velocity?


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## Guy Bacos (Aug 26, 2009)

Hannes_F @ Wed Aug 26 said:


> Guy, what is the y-axis? Frequency or velocity?



Velocity, of course.


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## germancomponist (Aug 26, 2009)

Hm, but can you post one, Guy?


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## Guy Bacos (Aug 26, 2009)

I could do through PM on a one to one basis, as I already did it with Nikolas, waiting for the autopsy report. :wink:


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## germancomponist (Aug 26, 2009)

Very cool, Guy.

I am now waiting too.


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## Guy Bacos (Aug 26, 2009)

BTW, I would like to add one thing about the sound. I'm not very competent in that area but someone who is can enhance the sound through EQ, exciter, reverbs, plug ins etc closer to his liking and still get the benefit of all the velocities. But if you have 8 from the start you'll always be stuck with 8.

I'm not trying to sell anything here, just making a point. :D


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## germancomponist (Aug 26, 2009)

Guy,

are you interested in an experiment? 

metaphon (at) t-online.de


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## madbulk (Aug 26, 2009)

Guy Bacos @ Wed Aug 26 said:


> Gunther, I'm not very optimistic that they will get good results even with all the adjustments possible. Take a look at a compressed shot of part of the Pathetique, it clearly demands a wider range of dynamics than 8 velocities.


Well, it clearly employs a wider range of dynamics than 8 velocities. Whether it demands it is what's at issue.

Prove me wrong Nikolas. I don't think I care what it sounds like on PianoTec (not much of a scientist myself either evidently). Send it to someone with East West.

I'm being presumptuous, I don't know what Nikolas is gonna use obviously.


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## nikolas (Aug 26, 2009)

I'll use pianoteq (no velocity layers, each velocity has a different sound) and GAST (no idea atm how many velocity layers it has). 

I'll keep you posted pretty soon.


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## mf (Aug 26, 2009)

Guy Bacos @ Tue Aug 25 said:


> I don't think you know what expression is,


No need to be SO confrontational.  In this thread you are trying to get across the idea that lots of dynamics makes a piece more expressive, and you're backing it with a rendition of the Pathetique. Well, allow me to explain, first, why the idea in itself is untenable, and second, why the piece you picked clearly invalidates your own idea.

What is expression? It's the result of expressing (duh!). Expressing what? -- dynamics? Of course not; rather, expressing a message, and doing it coherently, meaningfully. Being expressive when playing music is the equivalent of being articulated, eloquent in speech. In music, expressiveness is precisely what triggers the listener's feeling that something meaningful is being imparted to him. Dynamics is just one of the means for achieving that goal. And one can easily miss the target by employing too many dynamics, or too few, or employing them pointlessly, meaninglessly, ineffectively. There are so many ways to get it wrong. Ok, that was the theory part; let's now move to the practical part, the piece.

As I have said in my previous post, in his piano music Beethoven was dealing with a less wide dynamic range than we are today. Gould was surely well aware of that. Listen to his rendition: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL0u9QXNvEg&feature=fvw How many dynamic levels were available to him? Innumerable. How many did he actually use? Not too many, far less than you used in your rendition. In which way did he used them? Coherently, consistently, meaningfully. In one word: expressively. Expressiveness is never about showing off skills and technicalities. It's about willing and being able to convey a (the) message.

Not to generalize, but understatements are preferable to overstatements. Restraint is a virtue, especially when proceeds from understanding.


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## germancomponist (Aug 26, 2009)

nikolas @ Thu Aug 27 said:


> I'll use pianoteq *(no velocity layers, each velocity has a different sound)*...



Smile, here we go!


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## Guy Bacos (Aug 26, 2009)

mf,

Yeah, yeah, I know all about that Bla bla bla! these aren't exactly great findings for most musicians you know. But that doesn't change anything to the point I am making on this thread about going from 8 to 100 velocities. But I'm not going to argue something that is not relevant to my point which you don't seem to get.


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## mf (Aug 26, 2009)

Well, more dynamics gives the player more dynamics, that's all it does. It doesn't make the player, or the piece, more expressive. I just wanted to debunk the false idea that more dynamics equals more expressiveness. I hope now it's clear.


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## Guy Bacos (Aug 26, 2009)

I think you are totally wrong about what is expression. Expression could be the message the interpreter is trying to convey to the public but it could also be just 2 notes independent of anything else, us humans will react to that for reasons we don't know but it just has an effect. Some people will react to some types of intervals especially if they are played with the right dynamics. Now if you want to call that "nothing" you are free to do so, but I call that expression.


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## mf (Aug 26, 2009)

Guy Bacos @ Wed Aug 26 said:


> I think you are totally wrong about what is expression.


I think you are using too many dynamics in your thinking, which impedes on the very expression of your thoughts.


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## Guy Bacos (Aug 26, 2009)

I've played live piano in nice clubs, I could feel instantly the vibes from the people when I'd play with more dynamics even when just improvising nonesense. I have a lot of experience with this kind of stuff, reactions, I have lived things in music, so I know what I'm talking about. Your reasoning seems only intellectual and not what the reality of music is.


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## mikebarry (Aug 26, 2009)

I was re-reading this, surprised to see my own name in this and then it all came back to me. 

When you start to think about making a sample library for a product you have to analyze the nature of the instrument and go from there. The formula for making great sounding drum libraries involves proper RR execution, grabbing multi velocity layers, fooling with decay to avoid getting phasing etc..... We are at the point where I can positively say that sampled drums (think action drums) are inheritly the same or better sounding then live drums at the stage would be. I know this from going to the movies and hearing sampled drums execute extremely well. 

LASS opened new doors when investigating stacking by chairs and micro tuning scripting.etc....

To sample the piano effectively you need to take into account the complex nature of the soundboard and the sus pedal (screw the soft pedal even) -until then there will be no realistic piano samples, a trained ear can spot the difference in a second. On top of that you need the RR/velocity layers to represent the different sounds of the piano or a clever script which colors the tone appropriately. It is incredibly complex but it looks like things are moving in the correct direction. I do expect that it will get there in a few years and cinesamples will be forced to make a Gould moaning library with massive RR in 5.1 and mono.

And Beethoven and Gould is not a good match-yucky, but it is better then Gould/Brahms. It's a bit too "interprity" for me.

Ok now I am retreating from this conversation.


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## Guy Bacos (Aug 26, 2009)

I hate to be rude here but it seems I have no choice. The problem in this thread is people don't know how to read, especially mf. I'm talking about apples and people are replying talking about oranges. I'm not saying that all the other factors aren't important but you have to be a real idiot to deny what I'm talking about.


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## Guy Bacos (Aug 26, 2009)

And BTW, have you ever gone to a piano store and you have children trying out all these pianos? Notice how terrible it sounds despite they are playing on some excellent grand pianos? Why? Because they aren't playing with any dynamics or very little, so no expression.


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## Guy Bacos (Aug 27, 2009)

God Nikolas, you're SO serious, I did this in a day, and perhaps some other time I'd do it over differently and I'm sure you'd have other types of criticisms. So I have no regrets with this performance and I am very proud of it. I like to do things and move on, not make a federal case of it. Some work better than others, that's life.

And yes I have an attitude, sorry if you don't like that, and that never changed anything about my work, I've always gotten work.


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## Guy Bacos (Aug 27, 2009)

And one last thing I have to say on this thread which I am regretting posting.

So what's the point of all this? My performance sucks? Fine. That Vienna Imperial sucks? Fine, don't buy it. That dynamics aren't that important? Fine Anything else?


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## nikolas (Aug 27, 2009)

Guy Bacos @ Thu Aug 27 said:


> God Nikolas, you're SO serious, I did this in a day, and perhaps some other time I'd do it over differently and I'm sure you'd have other types of criticisms.


... Why yes, I try to provide feedback as thorough as possible, and since I spent so much time with this I thought this thread deserved a serious post. You probably don't agree...



> So I have no regrets with this performance and I am very proud of it.


I'm also proud of many things I've done. You shouldn't have regrets whatsoever, who said anything about regrets?



> I like to do things and move on, not make a federal case of it. Some work better than others, that's life.


I usually do this as well. I very rarely will touch one of my older works again... 



> And yes I have an attitude, sorry if you don't like that, and that never changed anything about my work, I've always gotten work.


Good job then. I don't really care if you have/had/will have a job, nor anything about yourself, believe me. But since you are calling people idiots in this thread, I think that I do have a point discussing a tiny bit about your attitude. Who said anything about jobs? Do you think that for a moment that I (or you) feel threatened by each other? There's room for all, and I hope, I really hope you have work for a long time!



> And one last thing I have to say on this thread which I am regretting posting.


A pity, because there was a useful discussion about dynamics, velocity layers, expression, etc. In fact I was thinking of making a new thread about "what is expression in music?", but on second thought, maybe not...



> So what's the point of all this? My performance sucks? Fine. That Vienna Imperial sucks? Fine, don't buy it. That dynamics aren't that important? Fine Anything else?


Let me paraphrase you:

So what's the point of all this? Mf does not know how to read? Fine. That 8 velocity layers suck? Fine, use more. That dynamic is most important?... etc...

You remember me asking you if I should post in the appasionata thread in NS? I had the absolutely same issues as I do now. And look what you said to me, and where it lead us here. 

The point is that you are a person who's words are now public, and his works as well. And as thus there's every reason to expect 'negative' responses as well as possitive. I, personally, would be thrilled to have created a thread of 3 pages in vi and have some people spent so much time with my ideas, my performance, etc.

But yes, never mind I guess. I'm a huge fan of the idea that communication is a two way street, and I'm ready to agree that a dissagreement comes from two, not from one. So really, never mind.


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## Guy Bacos (Aug 27, 2009)

Nikolas, you've made some good comments here. 

But I don't think agree to disagree is the answer since I was not understood or some people decided to take this to a different level. This is what is maddening and makes me react like this. I will once again recap and if anybody disagree please say something.

The first time I tried Vienna Imperial "playing live" I was amazed at the nuances possible from a sampled piano. I felt I was able to express myself improvising on a sampled piano and hearing all these subtle nuances for the first time. So the point is, once again, again and again that I was creating expression. Now either you accept this fact or you don't. And I was saying you have to be an idiot to not understand this because it's so basic to understand and someone who refuses to accept this is just looking to argue for the sake of arguing. 

Now ALL THE REST IS IMPORTANT I DO KNOW THAT, why do some people keep insisting on that, I never said that velocity is the ONLY factor which affect expression, however it's extremely important to have velocities to create nuances which are most of the time the direct result of some sort of expression.

So hear me out, I will embrace any other improvements of sampled pianos, but until they come out the velocity factor is a great improvement on the expression. I expect some people to say: "That's just not true", well, that what I think, that's what I personally experienced having played on the VI, and that's what I think makes sense.


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## Guy Bacos (Aug 27, 2009)

mf @ Thu Aug 27 said:


> Guy Bacos @ Thu Aug 27 said:
> 
> 
> > I think though it's nice to be understood.
> ...



I think I frightened mf. :shock:


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## Synesthesia (Aug 28, 2009)

I'm not mad about the sound of this piano: it sounds a bit 'plonky' for want of a better expression: I think for my ears it is either the way it has been miced up or possibly the post production?

For my taste (and this is just my subjective opinion) the sound has not been allowed to 'bloom' enough, making it for me just a bit 'sterile' sounding.

Back in my youth, when I first moved to London after doing my MA, I spent 6 months working part time in Harrods demoing pianos to the well heeled, and was lucky enough to have three Bosies to play on a daily basis, of which my favorite was the Imperial.

There can be a huge difference between one piano and another obviously, even the more factory tooled ones, and much more so with pianos that are significantly hand crafted.

In terms of the whole velocity layers argument, while I totally disagree that velocity = expression, (I agree with Mike fwiw) more layers is obviously good, but only if they result in a more expressive tool. 

Its not just as simple as if you record more layers the end result is inherently more expressive to use.

Thats even if you agree that the mechanical approach to capturing 'velocity layers' can equate when 'decoded' at the other end to exactly the same force v dynamic, which it clearly can't, unless you are playing the same action and electronics as was used for capture.

I for one prefer to concentrate on sound. I have a piano I recorded myself in a wonderful room, with one dynamic layer, that sounds just beautiful, and I find myself playing extremely expressively on this! 

While that is clearly devils advocate position, and I'm not saying the ideal is one layer, I'm trying to get across the point that expressiveness is not (for me at least) directly correlated to number of velocity levels. Its more mojo than that..

Just my subjective 2p worth anyway, and thanks to Guy for putting his performance up, I'm sure there as many people who like the sound of the VSL piano as not - its all subjective after all!

Cheers

Paul


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## Guy Bacos (Aug 28, 2009)

Synesthesia @ Fri Aug 28 said:


> In terms of the whole velocity layers argument, while I totally disagree that velocity = expression, (I agree with Mike fwiw) more layers is obviously good, but only if they result in a more expressive tool.




I have heard people playing the "saw" with a bow and I was very moved by it! I doubt it was a Steiway saw.... :D


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## Guy Bacos (Aug 28, 2009)

I'm glad composers like Beethoven, Mozart and Chopin didn't have that attitude and said" I'm not going to do compose on a shitty piano like this, cause it sounded very shitty then compared to the modern ones, and believe it or not but in 100 years people will say the same thing about today's piano. Some of you guys are spoiled and want the instrument to do your work. "I'll play 3 notes and it will sound fantastic!"


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## germancomponist (Aug 28, 2009)

Oops.... .


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## Guy Bacos (Aug 28, 2009)

Well it's true, Chopin found ways to make his shitty piano sound like heaven. That's part of adaptability qualities. He didn't spend his time complaining.... "Oh my piano sounds plunky"


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## germancomponist (Aug 28, 2009)

A good piano player can sound much much better on a shitty piano than a not so good piano player on the best piano aviable.

Sure, this is no secret and is true for all instrument players. :-D


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## Guy Bacos (Aug 28, 2009)

Absolutely Gunther. 

This comes back to my first poll and tells me that people want the samples to do the work for them.

It reminds me of a story my great piano teacher told me, he had been a concert pianist. This fellow was telling him people were saying that his piano wasn't good, so my teacher sat down and played, then the guy said "There's nothing wrong with my piano!"


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## germancomponist (Aug 28, 2009)

Yeah, this story reminds me to another. 

Some years ago we (14 brass players) played on a party just for fun (only some pieces). Our tuba player wasn`t the best. Someone came and told us how bad the tuba sounded. 

Our trumpet player (a well known pro) took the tuba and played something special on it. 

Smile, the man who asked about the bad tuba sound was out of words. :-D


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## mikebarry (Aug 28, 2009)

I personally think 100 dynamic layers is an overkill and that it is partially a method of "shocking an awing" the customer into buying this library. All sample engines have a very realistic incoming velocity to outgoing volume conversion which can even make single velocity layer instruments sound somewhat realistic. To properly capture certain different sounding zones of instruments developers have captured different velocity layers which when adapted to this procedure of velocity/outgoing volume makes the product sound even more realistic. In no way are there more then 20 voices to a modern piano on one key played as loud to as soft, there are more likely like 10 variations of the tone one can achieve through striking the key at different velocities (acoustically). 

After spending my entire life playing pianos I've analyzed the reasons why children and university students play a lot of Bach - its to develop inner finger strength without hiding behind the pedal. "Finger Pedaling" - it relies heavily on the piano soundboard and ghost pedaling. 

If I put it this way it might make more sense. The piano doesn't have a legato like a violin has (on one string - one note will sound), to get this legato we use a combination of holding down the last note while playing the next note, pedaling techniques and reactive listening/playing to whats going on in the instrument. Children play at so many dynamic levels because they lack this strength in their hands, Gould mastered this strength because he was consistent with his strength - he could make a very smooth cresendo or decresendo or he could play at the same point over and over if he chose to.

So for me not having the in between pedalling and apporpriate ringing soundboard - it has no soul and no vibe for classical playing. Without this, this part of the piano is not being represented and therefore it sounds fake.

On top of that I really dislike the "cold" style sound of the piano - it doesn't have a vibe it is very plain - that might be a positive for certain people but not for me.

PS I have nothing against Guy's performance I am simply commenting upon those who think that velocity layers equals everything for a piano - I can tell you that is not the case for this instrument - it is for drums.

PPS Beethoven hated many of his instruments according to the Soloman Biography.


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## Guy Bacos (Aug 28, 2009)

So you're among the people who wouldn't of survived long, in the music world, if you had lived in the 19th century. Beethoven wrote the greatest masterpieces of mankind despite the poor quality of his piano. Once again, he didn't say: "I hate this piano, I'm not going to write music for this instrument", like Chopin, he ADAPTED.

ps thank you for confirming that Beethoven hated many of his instruments.


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## mikebarry (Aug 28, 2009)

LOL I am just trying to comment on the VSL piano library, that's it!!


I think we all suffer from lack of love for certain types of samples yet we still compose with them because that is what is best on the market, I don't see how your point makes any sense. We use what we have and do the best with it.


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## Guy Bacos (Aug 28, 2009)

Laugh all you want. There has been tons of comments about what a good piano sound is all about on this thread. Do you honestly think I don't know that? I am not learning anything here since I appreciate every bit as much as you or anybody else all these factors about the qualities of a good piano sound. The difference is, I decided I would compromise, for now at least, and it has already greatly benefited me since I wrote 3 of my best pieces up to now that wouldn't of been possible if I had decided to be wait for the "perfect" sampled piano. So no matter what anybody says on this thread I don't see how this can be argued, for me it's mission accomplished. I am now in the process of printing these pieces through a friend and then hopefully spread them around. So I had the choice of sitting back and complaining waiting for the golden piano or do this, I'm glad I followed my instinct.


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## mikebarry (Aug 28, 2009)

Ok i don't really understand your last post much, are you saying you can only write to the quality of the samples? I am not understanding the reasoning behind composing on a good instrument and having it correlate to good music in the classical world. I've written alot of good music on finale. I am not trying to be confrontational - I just don't understand the point at all. We all use the best of what we can use.

I only got involved to write my thoughts about the VSL piano and that for the price tag it is not worth it in my opinion (I own and use other VSL products of great quality). Additionally I added my opinion that velocity layers is not the end game for sampled pianos. I only chimed in because I am knowledgeable on the subject. 

Other then that I think I have been agreement with everything else, except I conclude there will be a point where a sampled piano will be indistinguishable from real as much as action drums are.


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## germancomponist (Aug 28, 2009)

Guy,

I think you do not must take it personaly!

It seems that many people don`t like the VSL piano *sound*. So what?


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## Guy Bacos (Aug 28, 2009)

Now I can't make any sense of your post, at least the first part. Anyway, what I said is that by tolerating what is not perfect about VI I was able to work with it and it turned out very fruitful. These pieces I wrote with Vienna Imperial are now in the process of being printed and I hope to spread them around. This would NOT have been possible without my tolerance of some imperfections. I'm only bringing this up because people are making such a big deal about that pure golden sound of the piano, that 9 foot Steiway with that heavenly sound etc... Well what I done with Vienna Imperial is convincing enough to present to real pianists and if performed will get that heavenly sound from a real piano. That would not be possible with any other sampled piano, pieces of this complexity and dynamic range.

I hope that was clearer.


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## Synesthesia (Aug 28, 2009)

Jeez Guy don't be so touchy.

No one is saying that you weren't inspired to create some great piano music.

Stop insinuating that I or Mike or whoever are incapable of imagining how our music will sound beyond the sample set we are using. 

I am simply saying I don't get a vibe off this piano. End of story. I have (among many many piano sets) a one layer that I made myself which drips vibe and inspiration.

OK so its use is slightly limited, but it **inspires** me to play with this sound.

Are you actually saying that if you had used, say, EW pianos, or Sampletekk, or whoever, that your 'demo' would not be "convincing enough to present to real pianists" to show your intent?

I very much doubt that, unless its a real pianist with zero imagination.

But I am happy that you are inspired by it, its no personal dick waving contest, its just an internet forum with people expressing their opinions!

So I don't like the sound, you do! Big deal! As Gunther said.. "So What?" !!!

Peace,

Paul


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## Synesthesia (Aug 28, 2009)

Ps: one great example for vibe... Malmsjo. Extremely limited in terms of layers. 

Used on umpteen scores. Why? Vibe. Inspiration.

P


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## Guy Bacos (Aug 28, 2009)

Synesthesia @ Fri Aug 28 said:


> Are you actually saying that if you had used, say, EW pianos, or Sampletekk, or whoever, that your 'demo' would not be "convincing enough to present to real pianists" to show your intent?



This is a joke right? You seriously believe that 8 velocities is going replace 100? All of my performance was based on playing with the right dynamics for it to be effective. Let's get real! I simply have to believe you have no idea what I'm talking about.


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## Synesthesia (Aug 28, 2009)

Guy Bacos @ Fri Aug 28 said:


> Synesthesia @ Fri Aug 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Are you actually saying that if you had used, say, EW pianos, or Sampletekk, or whoever, that your 'demo' would not be "convincing enough to present to real pianists" to show your intent?
> ...



Do you know what Guy? I'm not going to comment further on the VSL Piano.

You are unbelievably rude and arrogant. I don't know who you think you are, but I sure wouldn't want to work with you, and it might be a good idea to moderate your tone when shouting your mouth off to people in a public place.

You have already insulted Mike ::


> I saw your website.
> 
> Cinetoms, Drums of war Iron Guitars, I think refined piano is not your thing, stick to Iron Guitar.



:: I didn't notice any kind of apology when he pointed out his credentials. Just a snide comment about the quality of a recording on his website.

Your attitude sucks big time my friend.

Cheers,

Paul


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## Guy Bacos (Aug 28, 2009)

I just defend my point of views, that's all. yes I'm arrogant at times, yes I have an ego, but it's a healthy ego.


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## Guy Bacos (Aug 28, 2009)

Synesthesia @ Fri Aug 28 said:


> I sure wouldn't want to work with you,



Geeze, are you really going to deprive me of this honor?


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## mikebarry (Aug 28, 2009)

Guy Bacos @ Fri Aug 28 said:


> I think others should respect my opinions aresponsibility here to respect others.





> I saw your website.
> 
> Cinetoms, Drums of war Iron Guitars, I think refined piano is not your thing, stick to Iron Guitar.





> The problem in this thread is people don't know how to read, especially mf.





> you have to be a real idiot to deny what I'm talking about.





> Let's get real! I simply have to believe you have no idea what I'm talking about.





> So everybody has their share of responsibility here to respect others.



Sorry the New Yorker in me made me post this. 

But now that we are all happy again lets just chill out, for the sake of the unborn children in Africa at least. If you like the VSLI buy it - certainly Guy has put in a ton of work to demonstrate its sound. If not buy EW or use the other stuff. Last time I checked the EW piano had endorsements by A list composers so i assure you it's not sheet, the Mal grand is in every third trailer or dorian piece, and even the steinway from Logic is well received by well known composers. To each their own!


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## Guy Bacos (Aug 28, 2009)

You're nuts!

Why don't you add that one to your list.


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## Dave Connor (Aug 29, 2009)

I don't think Guy should be taken to task for suggesting that an exponential increase in available velocities does indeed open the door for greater expression. In fact as a machine, the piano key can only be sent downward at a slower or faster speed (velocity.) So it's a very important factor.

Nor should anyone be criticized for saying they don't like the sound of the piano and that other critical factors can mitigate against even a vast improvement in one area.

I think Guy felt people were missing his very basic point but others felt exactly the same about their very basic points. 

Context being everything: on one hand you have a demo produced in a single day which means you've got to cut all kinds of slack in the area of musicality. On the other it's instinctive for people to listen to any recording and instantly give a thumbs up or down.


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## Dave Connor (Aug 29, 2009)

Well you have a single layer so only one sample per note can be triggered. The loudness (amplitude) is going up and down. What's ideal is for the loudness to be natural to the sample, so a high velocity sample is triggered by a high velocity striking of the key. Not a soft or medium sample that's "turned up" louder than what it actually was played. An extreme example would be one layer of a very quiet sample which is amped up to fff artificially. It would just sound bizarre.


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