# Organizing - Rates, & Standards discussion



## kdm (Feb 9, 2009)

In response to a couple of other threads here suggesting the need for unifying and agreeing on standards, I thought it might be helpful to put this discussion into one thread, with the goal of getting the ball rolling. I'm probably duplicating what other groups are, or have tried to do, but I don't get the sense that any are making significant headway within the composing community, but maybe VI is the best place to do this.

Would it work to establish some form of rate and royalty/licensing reference points here and encourage other composers to follow these guidelines? 

Given that composers seem to be more at the mercy of "budgets" (aka generosity) than having any form of accepted value, here are areas that I think rates might need to be broken down - just as a starting point for sake of discussion at least. Others will have a much better feel for this than I do:

Minimum per Minute rate for corporate, advertising, games and indie film?

Broad Industry Categories: Film; Corporate/Business/Promo; Advertising; Games; Web media 
(obviously these could be broken down into several sub-categories and levels)

Level of Experience-affected per Minute minimums? 
(perhaps there should be levels of experience when setting per minute rates to give new composers a place to start with less established clients?)

Minimums based on project scope/client size?

Standards on royalties and licensing? 
(e.g. no participation in royalty free libraries? Others might not be opposed to libraries in general, but I am since it simply sets a lower rate standard based on mass sales that rarely materialize, and that eventually lowers rates across a wide range of markets - esp. royalty free but to a degree blanket license-based as well).

This is probably a can of worms, but I felt it might be worth at least starting some directed intentional discussion on this.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 9, 2009)

I don't want to rain on this initiative, but my experience has been that producers will pay you what they think they can get away with. They will not look at a chart, standards rates, etc.

Typically, I think, there's X amount set aside from music at the early stage, but by the time they get to actually negotiating with the composer/agent, that figure has been reduced - why? Because by the time they get to the stage of hiring a composer, they've gone over budget in other areas. Imagine the meeting: 

- "Those freakin explosions cost us 3 times what you had budgeted!"

- "Sorry boss. Maybe we can cut a little from the post-prod budget?"

- "Hey! Good idea! Let's see here... Mix? Yeah, they can probably do it in 2 days less... Composer?... Let's cut that by 25... no 30%."

You, of course, will never know that they had actually budgeted more.


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## midphase (Feb 9, 2009)

This is not about presenting a chart to some idiot producer....this is about us having a basic idea of what is considered acceptable or not.

Let everyone ultimately negotiate how they see fit...but at least having a good starting point IMHO is a huge advantage.


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## Hannes_F (Feb 9, 2009)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Feb 09 said:


> producers will pay you what they think they can get away with.



That is the essence of the problem. The only thing stopping them is _not _getting away with it. It is business, not charity, and business needs balance of forces.

What would be needed is an awareness of a certain relation between music budget and financial success of the whole project. I am sure music has much more impact on the long term success of a film or TV project than is known. True, many people don't hear the music conciously but unconciously it is one of the dominant factors for the overall product quality impression.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 9, 2009)

midphase @ 9/2/2009 said:


> This is not about presenting a chart to some idiot producer....this is about us having a basic idea of what is considered acceptable or not.
> 
> Let everyone ultimately negotiate how they see fit...but at least having a good starting point IMHO is a huge advantage.



I apologize if I acted as a cynical curmudgeon. If the idea is to compile a list for composer to check before they consider a gig, I'm all for it.


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## kdm (Feb 9, 2009)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Feb 09 said:


> If the idea is to compile a list for composer to check before they consider a gig, I'm all for it.



As a start, yes that is the first part of the idea, but ultimately, the real problem is getting producers, production companies, and even young desperate composers to respect music as a valued artform worth pay in an accepted scale, and adhere to it as if it without reservation. 

I think it will take quite a bit more than agreement among a forum of composers to make any real changes, unless 99% of all composers at all levels simply start refusing projects that don't meet the prescribed pay scale, which of course is unlikely to happen.


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## dannthr (Feb 9, 2009)

I am working on something like this for the Games Industry:

http://www.gameaudiosurvey.com/

I'll be throwing a post up about it sometime soon.



There IS a correlation between experience and pay but not experience and value because ours is a creative medium where even those with 20 years experience can be out writ by those with 5.

It's a rough industry and unfortunately, to a degree, there really isn't any such thing as a standard because there is no standard composer.

But that doesn't mean these kinds of surveys will reveal total chaos, they don't, they reveal a real correlation between experience/industry-profile and pay rates/scale.

I hope to produce some interesting data later this year.


Ned:

Producers will pay what they want, true, and artists will require what they want. Bottom line. The rule of thumb for a buyer is to get it at the lowest available price, the rule of thumb for the seller is to sell it at the highest possible price. That's not new.

However, the rule of economics is that the person who is the most informed about value in the industry is going to be the one with the advantage in a negotiations.

That is the point behind these sorts of efforts. We can level the playing field by making sure people are INFORMED about standards (if such a thing exists) and if they want to take advantage of that information, that is up to them.

Cheers,


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## midphase (Feb 9, 2009)

"It's a rough industry and unfortunately, to a degree, there really isn't any such thing as a standard because there is no standard composer. "

The same argument could be made for writers, directors, musicians, orchestrators, editors, actors, cinematographers, costume designers, and the list goes on and on and on.

Yet all of these groups have figured out a way to make it work. Why are composers unable to organize? I think there are more politics involved than most of us realize, and more shady backroom deals having more to do with studios and big money than we all realize.

I think it's time we all wake up and educate ourselves on what has been going on.


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## midphase (Feb 9, 2009)

You can all start by reading some of the articles published in Film Music Magazine:

http://www.filmmusicmag.com/

Some pretty eye-opening shit going on!


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## dannthr (Feb 9, 2009)

I agree, and no composer worth his salt is going to advertise rates out in the open because it's all back-room negotiations.

On top of that, one of the problems in our field is that we are one man shows, so to speak, and there is usually only one composer working on a project--meaning that there is no unionization (even loose unofficial unionization) inside the project.

Additionally, we're all in it for ourselves, since we're so solo, so cutthroat is part of the game.

Underselling, unfortunately, is commonplace.

We can change that, or at least try to.


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## rgames (Feb 9, 2009)

I think collections of this type of information are interesting but I'm not certain they're useful. Do you think a director is really going to care about a recommended rate for a composer? I doubt it. I certainly wouldn't - I'd budget according to what the market will support.

It's up to the composer to figure out what's acceptbale. Do the math - what's your time worth and how much additional expense is associated with the task. Add those up. If the director's offer is less than that, well, don't take the gig. It's extremely simple.

FWIW, engineers, doctors, lawyers, etc. never have these kinds of discussions, and they get paid pretty well.

rgames


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## Thonex (Feb 9, 2009)

dannthr @ Mon Feb 09 said:


> I agree, and no composer worth his salt is going to advertise rates out in the open because it's all back-room negotiations.



I agree... but if all composers agree that it's customary to receive at least $100/min music at entry level... then at least producers would understand (hopefully by word of mouth) that the lowest rung guys are charging about $100/minute.

This is just an example... or course I think we should all be paid $10,000 a minute... starting level :D


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## kdm (Feb 9, 2009)

midphase @ Mon Feb 09 said:


> Yet all of these groups have figured out a way to make it work. Why are composers unable to organize? I think there are more politics involved than most of us realize, and more shady backroom deals having more to do with studios and big money than we all realize.



Maybe I'm hopelessly optimistic, but I think we can make it work. VI-Control is a basic example of composers finding common ground and uniting, at least on some level. The same can happen with business. 

No doubt you are right that there may be more politics than we have clout to overcome.

I think establishing some minimum rates and a way to "encourage" them within the industry can be done without jeopardizing competition. But, undercutting rates isn't a healthy way to compete, imho, even if it is reality. The only end cap to that model is 0, and 0 doesn't pay the bills. The minimums don't have to be what we would charge - just the lowest a given rate should go.

This might be a lame idea, but what if we did create an organization, consortium, or alliance (or use an existing one if the owners agreed as long as it doesn't have any strings attached), and establish some sort of recognition for clients that adhere to accepted rates - they don't even have to know the minimums as part of negotiation, just that the project fell above the mins, and met the composers' consortium standards approval? A listing on the org website? A designation after composer names in credits? There are similar standards in business such as ISO9000 and Malcom Baldridge. There doesn't have to be major clout, such as approval from the UN - just enough composers to give it a widespread presence - the credibility should follow over time - at least in theory.


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## erockrazor (Feb 9, 2009)

I think this is a push in the right direction. 

Trying to break into composing is almost comical. I can't go far without reading about how hard it is to actually make a living doing this... But that part of it I think pulls me towards doing it.

Keep pushing it KDM. If not for a union of composers, a guide to composing rates would be helpful for us.


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## midphase (Feb 9, 2009)

"Do you think a director is really going to care about a recommended rate for a composer? I doubt it. "

For the Nth time (does anyone actually read what I write?) this is not about show some director some rate card...this is about you, me, and everyone else knowing what rates other guys are getting paid for very similar type of work, so that we can negotiate accordingly (or at the very least get screwed knowing how badly we're getting screwed).

I propose the creation of an anonymous database filled with information that would generally be closely guarded but that perhaps the majority of us wouldn't mind sharing if it was anonymous.

Stuff like how much we got paid, how much publishing we got to keep, what the total budget of the film was, how long we had to score the film, how many minutes we had to score, etc etc.

I think that Film Music Magazine's rate survey is a step in the right direction....but it's way too generic to be useful. We need something more detailed.

For example, I should be able to go to the Composers' Rates Database and plug in the following info: "Indie feature film, 93 minutes, 1.2mil total budget, based in Los Angeles" and I should be able to get about 3-4 movies with similar parameters and see how composers in my category got paid.


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## Andreas Moisa (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm all in!

A good starting point would be to see what others get paid for a certain project.
Here's a problem: No one would publish on the net what their last gig paid.
A good way to do it could be the use of anonymous polls here on the forum with certain film-categories. If I got paid say 10K I'd put in in the poll - you guys get what i mean?

In about a year this gives everyone a good overview of what is possible. Maybe an extra poll about how much royalties everyone received.

Greets,
Andreas


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## midphase (Feb 10, 2009)

Exactly what I'm talking about....100% anonymous...but extremely detailed.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 10, 2009)

Sounds great! 8)


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## Farkle (Feb 10, 2009)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Feb 10 said:


> Sounds great! 8)



I have a lot of thoughts about this (all positive, I assure you). And, since my daughter's still asleep, I'm gonna share 'em with you!

First, I think one of the most important weapons we have is the education of our potential clients. I have given, and am giving, presentations to game producers about "how to get great game audio" (I presented at the IGDA, and hopefully, will present at this year's IMGDC). At one point in the presentation, I explicitly talk about budget to these game producers. I say to them, "Based upon what needs I've described, and what your needs are for great game audio, you can expect an industry professional to charge between $700 and $1500 per minute of finished music." What's wonderful is that many of them A) didn't know how much to expect, and B) are not especially surprised, and nod their head, understanding that they should pay that range. 

Here's the thing: leading up to that rate, I explain in detail what they would want in a great audio guy. I explain, through many slides and examples, how a musical language for their game is constructed. The number of rewrites, the meetings, the ability for a composer to "think outside the box", and come up with many solutions for the producer's non-musical descriptions of musical events. In short, I try to educate the clients on the _value_ of the composer. I rarely talk about what product the composer brings, instead, I talk about how valuable a composer is who can listen to the producer, come up with many solutions, rewrite as needed to fill the producer's every wish for game music. I have found that when one makes that approach, then the composer starts to become a teammate on the project, a "dream spinner" if you will; and, man, does the client start thinking differently about the music budget!

Second, here's where I learned this from. Please, all of you, get this book and read it! Best $25 I have ever spent. The author is Kirstin Carey, and the book is called "Starving Artist No More". It's all about how to create healthy, _ethical_ interactions between an artist and a client so that both parties are getting value; the composer is paid well, and the client gets an emotionally excited, committed composer. Kirstin lectured at Manhatpro, and Grammy and Emmy winning composers were coming up to her and thanking her for her help. She's the bomb!

Third, I am a firm believer in being public with my financial history. I think (and this is IMHO, only) that the hiding of our peers/colleagues' rates prevents others, who are coming into the industry, from understanding their value, and has contributed to the drop in rates. When I lectured at NYU, and I told students there that they should expect to get paid $6000 for a single episode of TV animation (22 minutes of music), they were stunned. They said that no one had ever told them rates, and that they thought that $1000 was more appropriate! Augh!! if they went into projects with that mindset, then the rest of us all suffer! We need to educate our up and coming kids out of USC, NYU, and everywhere else, so that they value their music, that they go into negotiations understanding that their song should be licensed for $2000, not $200! And, for my part, I feel that being transparent with my video game rates helps these people gain courage in charging their values! Woof, okay off the soapbox. 

So, here's my rates. Based upon my studio's experience, our gear, and our video game, TV, and film credits, I go into negotiations with game producers charging $1200/minute for finished music. I don't always get that, but that's where I start. If they want to reduce the rates, then I can "counter-negotiate", maybe full rights on ancillary sales, etc.

For my current project (a sci-fi MMO), I am contracted to do the following: First, my partner (Dan Carter) and I are going to write about 10-12 minutes of music, _gratis_, to help the dev pitch the game to investors. When (fingers crossed) the game gets funded for full dev, our company (Game Music Inc.) will get hired at $1000/minute for the project. Yes, I dropped our price a bit, but there were several reasons; it's an indie project, I'm good friends with the producer, and we're going to release a lot of the music through ancillary markets, which will make some extra money. In retrospect, I should have gone for $1100, but it's not the end of the world. :oops: 

Anyways, here's my $.02. As always, these are my opinions, and I don't want to start any flame wars. I hope this helps out our merry crew; I really believe in sharing our practices as business composers; creative, technical, and business. So, take this info, and use it as you will!

Okay, off to work on our website (Brand spanking new website coming out in about 4 days!). 

All the best,

Mike


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## kdm (Feb 10, 2009)

midphase @ Tue Feb 10 said:


> Exactly what I'm talking about....100% anonymous...but extremely detailed.



I am looking into a web domain and name for this resource (totally free unless it starts costing me more than a few dollars a month in hosting fees to manage). Name ideas? 

Here are two approaches - I can setup polls here to decide on minimum rates, at least as a starting point, but afaik, threads only allow one-selection polls, but that would be the most anonymous route (anyone know if we can setup a more involved poll here?). 

There is already an industry rate survey out there but we could do one here a couple of ways:

1) I can compile rates and minimum suggestions from users could send to me via pm under the understanding/guarantee that all are to remain anonymòÌ3   ”Ð†Ì3   ”Ð‡Ì3   ”ÐˆÌ3   ”Ð‰Ì3   ”ÐŠÌ3   ”Ð‹Ì3   ”ÐŒÌ3   ”ÐÌ3   ”ÐŽÌ3   ”ÐÌ3   ”ÐÌ3   ”Ð‘Ì3   ”Ð’Ì3   ”Ð“Ì3   ”Ð”Ì3   ”Ð•Ì3   ”Ð–Ì3   ”Ð—Ì3   ”Ð˜Ì3   ”Ð™Ì3   ”ÐšÌ3   ”Ð›Ì3   ”ÐœÌ3   ”ÐÌ3   ”ÐžÌ3   ”ÐŸÌ3   ”Ð Ì3   ”Ð¡Ì3   ”Ð¢Ì3   ”Ð£Ì3   ”Ð¤Ì3   ”Ð¥Ì3   ”Ð¦Ì3   ”Ð§Ì3   ”Ð¨Ì3   ”Ð©Ì3   ”ÐªÌ3   ”Ð«Ì3   ”Ð¬Ì3   ”Ð­Ì3   ”Ð®Ì3   ”Ð¯Ì3   ”Ð°Ì3   ”Ð±Ì3   ”Ð²Ì3   ”Ð³Ì3   ”Ð´Ì3   ”ÐµÌ3   ”Ð¶Ì3   ”Ð·Ì3   ”Ð¸Ì3   ”Ð¹Ì3   ”ÐºÌ3   ”Ð»Ì3   ”Ð¼Ì3   ”Ð½Ì3   ”Ð¾Ì3   ”Ð¿Ì3   ”ÐÀÌ3   ”ÐÁÌ3   ”ÐÂÌ3   ”ÐÃÌ3   ”ÐÄÌ3   ”ÐÅÌ3   ”ÐÆÌ3   ”ÐÇÌ3   ”ÐÈÌ3   ”ÐÉÌ3   ”ÐÊÌ3   ”ÐËÌ3   ”ÐÌÌ3   ”ÐÍÌ3   ”ÐÎÌ3   ”ÐÏÌ3   ”ÐÐÌ3   ”ÐÑÌ3   ”ÐÒÌ3   ”ÐÓÌ3   ”ÐÔÌ3   ”ÐÕÌ3   ”ÐÖÌ3   ”Ð×Ì3   ”ÐØÌ3   ”ÐÙÌ3   ”ÐÚÌ3   ”ÐÛÌ3   ”ÐÜÌ3   ”ÐÝÌ3   ”ÐÞÌ3   ”ÐßÌ3   ”ÐàÌ3   ”ÐáÌ3   ”ÐâÌ3   ”ÐãÌ3   ”ÐäÌ3   ”ÐåÌ3   ”ÐæÌ3   ”ÐçÌ3   ”ÐèÌ3   ”ÐéÌ3   ”ÐêÌ3   ”ÐëÌ3   ”ÐìÌ3   ”ÐíÌ3   ”ÐîÌ3   ”ÐïÌ3   ”ÐðÌ3   ”ÐñÌ3   ”ÐòÌ3   ”ÐóÌ3   ”ÐôÌ3   ”Ðõ              òÌ3   ”Ð÷Ì3   ”ÐøÌ3   ”ÐùÌ3   ”ÐúÌ3   ”ÐûÌ3   ”ÐüÌ3   ”ÐýÌ3   ”ÐþÌ3   ”ÐÿÌ3   ”Ñ Ì3   ”ÑÌ3   ”ÑÌ3   ”ÑÌ3   ”ÑÌ3   ”ÑÌ3   ”ÑÌ3   ”ÑÌ3   ”ÑÌ3   ”Ñ	Ì3   ”Ñ
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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 10, 2009)

Both soundtrackrates.com and soundtracksrates.com are available! :wink:


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## jeffc (Feb 10, 2009)

This kind of info, while enlightening or maybe depressing, is really what an Agent's job is to know about. They deal with it everyday and know what the going rates are. If you've got a legitimate possible job on the table, it's probably worth your time to try and seek out someone to negotiate it for you, even as a one off. They will most of the time at least get the fee up to pay for their commission. And it's really not in your best interest to negotiate for yourself. Just something to think about. Most of the time, unless a project is a total no budget indie, the producers have a general idea of what the can and will pay for a composer. They're not going to pay 50k for a film that they have 15k budgeted for a composer, regardless of your ideals and morals. There will always be the gigs that pay great, some that pay in the middle, and some that pay absolute crap. I don't think it will ever be standardized. There are some bad indie films that for some reason pay really good, and some great indies that just pay nothing. That's why you get A-List guys sometimes doing the great indie for no money. It's worth them doing it because the director or film may lead to something else, which of course is a drag to all the newer guys trying to get those stepping stone gigs. 

I think that it's a bit idealistic and naive to aspire to have the business to have this standardized environment. You'd be better realizing that it will be good and it will be bad and to hang on for the ride and try and deal with it as much as possible - or you will be a very bitter,frustrated, and depressed person and it's really not worth that....


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## midphase (Feb 10, 2009)

Ok Jeff....once more....you are misunderstanding the point (I wonder if this happens because so many people just skim a thread and not actually read every post).

This is not about standardizing rates, or making some producer who had $15k budgeted want to pay you $50k....it's not at all about that.

This is about people who don't have any agents, going into a meeting with a modicum of knowledge so that they are aware of what they're getting themselves into.

I can appreciate that with you scoring CSI Miami, you are getting many agents to be extremely willing to bend over backwards for you. I can also appreciate that with a regular income (derived from episodes and PRO's checks) you are probably not too concerned about what the ongoing rate for a direct-to-dvd movie is, I figure the way you approach it is by figuring out if the film appeals to you or not.

However...regarding your "get a one off agent", when you're being offered $8k to score a direct-to-dvd film and that is the ONLY gig you've gotten in the past few months....the last thing you want to do is shell out $800 or more of that to an agent just so that he can come in and maybe get you a few extra bucks but more than likely not. Also, there is the issue (which has been known to happen) where an agent will intentionally screw up the deal so that he can get one of "his" composers on the project. I am actually faced with that very situation right now, am I being paranoid? Perhaps. But I have heard too many first hand accounts of agents doing exactly that.


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## rgames (Feb 10, 2009)

I'll repeat: the highest-paying professions don't do this sort of thing.

Coincidence?

No successful business, individual, small, large, whatever, is going to give away its rate structure. That's one of the most basic pieces of competitive information.

Again, it's simple: what's your time worth? How much extra to hire musicians or rent gear? Add them up: that's your quote for the gig. Take gigs that offer more. Refuse or negotiate gigs that offer less. Who cares what other peòÌ²   ”õ?Ì²   ”õ@Ì²


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## midphase (Feb 10, 2009)

"Again, it's simple: what's your time worth? How much extra to hire musicians or rent gear? Add them up: that's your quote for the gig. Take gigs that offer more. Refuse or negotiate gigs that offer less. Who cares what other people get paid? "


Richard, if it was that simple, then we wouldn't have a problem. The issue is that the majority of composers heavily devalue themselves. The truth of the matter is that if it wasn't for agents and managers, even the big names would undervalue themselves.

To me it is important and relevant to know what my peers are charging for a similar service as what I provide. Airlines do it, Insurance companies do it, Car companies do it, magazines do it....why shouldn't we?


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## nikolas (Feb 11, 2009)

I agree with Kays last post about devaluing... It's just that the sentiment that "you'll get credit" is still too strong to too many. Building up a portfolio leads to rubbish fees (if any. How many people have worked for free in paid projects?). 

BTW, Kays, in Europe with companies like Easyjet and Airlingus, and Ryanair, the air companies are in deep deep trouble. When British Airways is charging... 250$ for the same flight that you can, HONESTLY, get for 60$ (if booked early) in easyjet, there's little hope really. Service sucks, it's not Heathrow, it's Gatwick, there's no food, or even water in the flights (you have to buy) and all sorts of things, but the fact remains that 1/3rd of the price is enough to get easyjets planes FULL and Lufthansa destroyed (not sure if factually linked, but it is a fact that Lufthansa is closed and BA is almost down, as well as Greek Olympic airways)...

Wait... when did vi-control, went into fly-with-us-control? :D heh... sorry for off tracking...


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## Will Loconto (Feb 11, 2009)

midphase @ Wed Feb 11 said:


> "The issue is that the majority of composers heavily devalue themselves.



I think this is the key. Combining that with some producers and directors (both in films and games) that either don't know any better or don't care enough about the music fosters a situation where there is usually someone willing to do the work at a cheaper rate and someone willing to take advantage of them. 

I partially agree with what Richard is saying. I charge what I charge, despite sometimes going up against others that charge less than half what I do. Sometimes I have to explain why I am more expensive. Sometimes I get the gig, sometimes I don't, but I won't cut my fees in half just to get the work, even if I have no other projects going on.

It would be nice to have some sort of resource for those who just have no idea what they should be charging or paying.


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## nikolas (Feb 11, 2009)

Part of the problem is that experience does equal to something. I might be expected to hit full prices, and so is Kays, John and a lot of members in here, but a new member who's never done a commercial gig before might have trouble. And it does make sense. There needs to be an entry in the market.

Of course the solution is to actually go for smaller gigs. But sometimes, just sometimes the idea of a big gig, even with small fees (or no fees), seems very appealing, unfortunately.

I mean if we make a poll, outside vi, on the question "You are called to work with Spielberg, in his latest film, for 100$ a minute, do you take the gig?" my impression is that many would. Sums up the problem I think.


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## erockrazor (Feb 11, 2009)

nikolas @ Wed Feb 11 said:


> I mean if we make a poll, outside vi, on the question "You are called to work with Spielberg, in his latest film, for 100$ a minute, do you take the gig?" my impression is that many would. Sums up the problem I think.



I think that is one of the biggest problems with film composition rates. It seems as if we reduce our rate for the projects significance. I would of course take the Spielberg film .. since I'd take a student film for 100$ a minute. I think many musicians are humble artists and not savvy businessmen. 

I'm not one to talk about rates since, I dont have any ... I'm still at the point where I'll take whatever I can get. But I do think some research on rates (for all the aforementioned scenarios) would help newbee's like myself get a better understanding.
Eric


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## cc64 (Feb 11, 2009)

Thanks to Mike Worth for his generous post!

Thanks KDM for putting time into this.

I think the anonymous rates database is a great idea.

Information is the key in any business. 

I think online mentoring, or via Skype, would be cool too. After all in business, mentoring is part of the culture.

Anecdote:

First time i was offered to be Musical director on a show for what would be the equivalent of the 4th of july here in Quebec/Canada(tons of numbers, National television/Radio etc...), i had absolutely no idea how much it was worth. I called up the guy that did the job the year before me and explained to him that if he chose not to share the knowledge with me i would most probably screw up the negotiations and the following year he would be stuck with "The guy that did it last year did a great job for $$"...He happily spent 3 hours on the phone explaining me every single detail of how that part of the biz worked. I ended up charging 25 000$. Didn't go all in my pocket, had to pay arrangers and copyists but bottom-line i was ready to do it for 4000$ before i spoke with the guy...At 4000$ i would have had 0$ left in my pocket and would have had to not sleep for 10 days to write the arrangements and do the copy myself. I would probably have done a very bad job too... Funny thing was that the guy negotiating for the producer did a number on me when i stated my fee, he actually said in front of everybody that no one ever had the nerve to ask for so much money, and he started naming all the established guys that had done the gig before me including the one who had given me the numbers o/~ 

To this day when i get job propositions in fields i don't know very well, Jingles for example, i call guys that are in the business and tell them the same thing i did to the 1st guy in my story. At least this way i know i'm not undercutting everybody and killing the industry.

Best,

CC


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## Synesthesia (Feb 11, 2009)

cc64 - Great post. If only everyone did that!

I just helped a guy on the SOS site by PM with exactly this issue. 

I just had a situation with a European Agency (not in the UK). I did a job, they all loved it, client very happy. They wanted to use the track on another product in the same family, but expected not to pay. They actually said, 'We are not prepared to pay anything'.

I held out for a license fee, and to cut a long stoy short, they have (I presume) used a different composer to score the commercial.

The head honcho actually said the immortal words 'I have guys queuing around the block to do this for nothing.'

Fine, I said! Let them do it for nothing!

He said 'its a real shame you will be missing out on the royalties'.

Gee thanks.

I think a guide for rates is invaluable so that we are not grossly undercut by the new entrants to the industry.

I totally disagree with Richard - I am very happy to help out people who PM me with guides to what I charge. Although before I get a deluge of PMs - I only know about TV and commercials! I haven't done any games myself yet.

Cheers!

Paul


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## midphase (Feb 11, 2009)

Nathan,

After reading your post, I don't know where to begin. First of all, I find it interesting that all of the guys who are advocating agents are (relatively) successful composers with agency representation already. I don't know how you came into doing what you're doing, but I assure you that even getting a "one off" agent to represent you on a small potatoes deal is no small task. Add to that the fact that when you're working on micro-budgets, every dollar counts towards rent and food and the argument breaks down. Even someone who is working regularly and has a good flow of projects can't get an agent. As it was succinctly put it to me recently

"the time to get an agent is when the agents are calling them -- that's when they'll know it's time..."

To address your other point:

"BTW, the idea of a "rate sheet" or any bullshit system of "pay by the yard" for music is demoralizing to what we do. We write music and create emotion, people.....we're not installing kitchen tile. "

First of all, I have been very vocal about this discussion not being about establishing rates as much as providing some guidelines that people can follow or not depending on their particular situations.

Secondly, following your logic, Directors, Writers, DP's, and a slew of other creatives working in this industry are apparently in the "installing kitchen tile" category? Because, you see, those are all creatives who, have established rates and minimums even though they don't "sell themselves by the yard" (I'll be waiting for your response on this one).

Thirdly, in some emerging industries such as videogames, there actually are some standardized rates that most of the main players are following. These are per/minute rates which the majority of the gaming houses (EA, Sony, Bally, Neversoft, etc) apply when budgeting for music. I personally don't think there is anything "demoralizing" or "bullshit" about what they are doing...quite the contrary.

Thoughts?


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## Chrislight (Feb 11, 2009)

I personally think this is a great idea (and in the spirit of "musicians helping musicians"), especially for those starting out or who don't have agents to rely on to negotiate fair contracts. I'm sure even veteran composers wouldn't mind checking out what their fellow composers are making on various type projects.  For those who don't like to divulge their fees publically, having it be anonymous would be ideal. 

One of the hardest things to do when you are in business for yourself is to establish what you are going to charge your clients, especially if there is not some kind of industry-wide standard. Just trying to figure out your "worth" and charging accordingly is not good enough. I personally found that out when starting a typesetting/graphics business. I struggled for some time coming up with an hourly rate which seemed really high based on what I had been making up to that point. A CPA and business owner who ended up being a major client made me double what I was originally going to charge (to bring it in line with what others were charging) and said something that has stuck with me ever since - * "Never do anything to hurt your own industry." * However, if you don't know and it's difficult to find out what your competition - fellow composers - are charging, then that's a problem.

A database would at least give everyone some kind of idea what to possibly charge. Of course, each situation is going to be unique, but it's at least a starting point. And, it could really benefit those, who because they haven't known what to charge, have been making much less than they should have. Nobody benefits from somebody working for peanuts because they didn't know any better - then they are going to expect that in the future.


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## dannthr (Feb 11, 2009)

There was definitely more to quote in my post--I'm actually quite for this sort of thing.

SO MUCH SO THAT I'M ALREADY DOING IT.

Sorry it's just for games.


I have a survey up waiting for:

Game Audio Designers in the following categories:

In-house Audio Pro
Freelance Composer
Freelance Sound Designer
Freelance Music Sequencer
Freelance Ghost Writer

Paid or Unpaid, credited or uncredited.

Oh heck, I'll just make my own thread 

http://www.gameaudiosurvey.com/


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## cc64 (Feb 11, 2009)

Synesthesia @ Wed Feb 11 said:


> He said 'its a real shame you will be missing out on the royalties'.
> 
> Paul



PRS pays for Commercials? In Canada(SOCAN) no performance royalties for adverts, don't know about the US.

CC


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## kid-surf (Feb 11, 2009)

Eesh...

Sure, a "rate sheet" isn't a document you can take to the bank...BUT...I think one thing that's bugging Kays (and I agree w/him if this is his gripe) is that there's no standard MINIMUM in the composing world like there is everywhere else. It's a fair gripe, IMO. Funny how composers often pretend it's a badge of honor to make a shitty wage...while killing themselves to earn it.

That's one thing I dig about screenwriting (even though you still take it up the butt). You want me to write a script for you, fine, give me AT LEAST $100,000, or fuck you! And this is WITHOUT big fancy credits...this is the standard "FIRST time outta the gate" rate. 

While I do NOT feel a composer should make as much as the dude who thought of the entire film  , I do feel there should be a minimum. But good luck now, right.

Still...what's wrong with simply, anonymously collecting rates to see how hard you can push when you DON'T have an agent? Seems like a "no big deal" type of request.

I have more to say, of course, I'll be back in a sec to give my opinionated opinion on agents....


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## rgames (Feb 11, 2009)

Chrislight @ Wed Feb 11 said:


> Just trying to figure out your "worth" and charging accordingly is not good enough.



But that's how markets work, and the job market for composers is, indeed, a market.

When you start out, you pick a rate that covers time and expenses and try to get gigs. If you're successful, you charge more. If not, you charge less down to the level where it's no longer worth it to you. Lather, rinse, repeat. Progressing through this cycle is the essence of a career as a businessperson (a.k.a. composer, in this case).

I don't see how anybody benefits from a rate survey; there are just too many composers willing to work for squat. So, huge supply, low wages. No amount of information on rates is going to change that fact. Ergo, that information will never increase wages. QED

Furthermore, by formally proliferating this type of rate information, you're raising the possibility of bringing down the lucky few who do make decent wages (client says "I'm paying you WHAT compared to the average?!?!?"). The only way to help those at the bottom is to dispense of most of them (said in the nicest possible way).

The only industries that I know of that do this type of wage disclosure are low-paying (or government). I'm willing to bet that my local McDonald's and Burger King offer damn-near-similar wages. I'm also willing to bet I could find out for certain in about 5 minutes.

So, bottom line: I don't see how this information helps anybody, but I do see how it could hurt.

rgames


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## Synesthesia (Feb 12, 2009)

Richard - 

With the greatest respect; how much of your living do you make from composing music?

I'm not trying to be smart, I geniunely am interested. I think this may be impacting on your opinion here.

I don't have an income outside of music. I do have an agent, and I generally find that they get me a better rate for a specific piece of work than I may have on my own.

However I still support more info being out there on rates.

I just don't see how the 'lucky few' (really? so few?) who make a living are going to be hurt by it: generally serious clients know what the rates are, and when they are trying t pull the wool over someones's eyes its generally because they think that this person is inexperienced and can therefore be hoodwinked into accepting a low rate.

Empowering those new to the industry with the generally accepted rate range can help to eliminate that problem, as they are armed with the information about what the going rates are!

Cheers,

Paul


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## kid-surf (Feb 12, 2009)

Rgames--

No offense bro, but that's a bunch of garbage. Here's why your theory craps out...

"Markets" consist of corporate entities, not individuals. In simple terms, groups of people who ban together in such a way where you; "fuck with one you fuck with all". There is RARELY a situation in "business" where it's "one guy" against the beast. Now you're telling us that this is the the most natural way to make a living? As fuck'n if... 

I promise you, you will not, by your lonesome, establish ANY decent fee in the entertainment industry. Much less any other industry. You can be as glib as you want, your assessment is assbackwards...unless your goal is to work harder than ever for less and less money.

Moving on...

AGENTS:

Q: What is the #1 benefit to having an agent? 

A: The rest of this agency backing the agent....and therefore, YOU.

Follow? Now it's not just "you" the lone composer, now it's "if they fuck with your agent they are fucking with the entire company". Key word COMPANY. As in, market place, as in business.  Now you've got an army behind you saying "No, you aren't going to fuck our client, and if you do, you won't use our other clients...so play fair". Hence, you get your fee. Why in the world do you suppose folks withOUT representation get paid less than those who have it...?

You honestly believe it could work any other way? Aren't you creating the same quality of work BEFORE you get an agent. How in the world do you think rates dramatically increase once you get an agent? Magic? No, your agent is the bully that facilitates this. 

No, the cycle RGames described is far from the essence of a career. Clearly not the case. But feel free to aspire to it.

Proliferate? Who said anything about proliferating? I think Kays was looking to do a somewhat low key, almost private rate sheet. I'd be surprised if his intent was to post it on youtube or do mailers to every independent prodco. Come on man, it's for composers eyes only. Those other people don't give a shit anyway.


This is not a GLOBAL conversation. This is what, a couple hundred regulars, if that. Shit, put the poll in the private section.

There is absolutely NO POSSIBILITY of causing the rates of the top dudes to drop. No friggn way it'll happen (excuse the reality of my comments). Why is this the case? Because the suit people (studio execs) are terrified of getting fired...the guys at the top keep these suits employed. Or so they feel. You obviously have no clue about what's happening in the film world as of right now. Yes, artists rates are getting cut. But it's definitely not the guys in the several million a gig rage. Absolutely not, and guess what, it's not the guys at the bottom either. It's all those guys in the middle who aren't considered to be "closers/the sure thing".


My bottom line is that; it seems you totally don't get how this works...no offense.


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## kid-surf (Feb 12, 2009)

AGENTS:

I've lived with one for years. I know how they think. (btw -- it's true that they don't want any more work than necessary - it's not that they're lazy, it's that they get 300 e-mails and 100+ calls per DAY, on top of everything else they have to deal with -- like several meetings a day etc. Hence, the reason they'll only respond to one of your questions per e-mail. Hence, the reason you type two e-mails if you have two questions [One sentence e-mails]. They all have ADD) 

I don't see an agent bothering with any deal under $50,000 unless you are already a client. Even then, 50k is a very small deal depending on what sort of agency we're talking.

I also find it interesting (funny?) that the dudes with representation (love ya Nathan, Hey Jeff) suggest to just go grab a one-off deal. It's just not that simple. I really have no idea how someone would reach my wife to query her about that. She wouldn't even LOOK at an e-mail in that regard, nor would she return your call. For no other reason than, she doesn't represent you and doesn't know who you are. This is standard practice. So who do you call?

...So, when we're talking about a "one-off" situation, let's be clear that we're talking: You already are fairly close with this agent, this agent knows you on some level. This is no cold call. (same goes for a lawyer)

Speaking of...a lawyer could do the deal all the same. So long as we're talking about a guy who's in the game, so to speak.

I would say, definitely, if one can garner an agent's services for a one-off it's far better than trying to negotiate on your own. After all, in the screenwriting/directing (studio) world it is flat out NOT POSSIBLE to make a deal yourself. Even though you both know what the fee will be, it's considered ghetto. So, sure I'd recommend using an agent, too, if at all possible. Unfortunately, until you are THE MAN, you're judged by who your team is. 

But what does everyone else do?


Anyway...

Jeff. Curious, did you get a bottle of wine, over the holidays, in an orange silky thing from "you know who"? Not a bad bottle...tasty.


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## midphase (Feb 12, 2009)

"Furthermore, by formally proliferating this type of rate information, you're raising the possibility of bringing down the lucky few who do make decent wages (client says "I'm paying you WHAT compared to the average?!?!?")."

Richard, the problem is that what you're afraid of is already happening. The studios and producers already know who is getting paid what, they already have that frame of reference just like I know how much I can get a violin player in here for. The people who are in the total dark is us, not them...I assure you that if such a database was available, none of the information contained in it would be much of a surprise to the guys who hire us.



Kid...insightful and sharp tongued as usual! Thank you for backing me on the agents thing. I honestly think that once one obtains representation, it becomes very easy to forget how hard it was to get it in the first place!


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## dannthr (Feb 12, 2009)

Frankly, you don't have producers fooled when they pay decent wages--they're just decent producers paying a professional rate.

Right now, the people with the most information in negotiations are producers, not us--this is about informing ourselves.


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## Will Loconto (Feb 12, 2009)

rgames @ Thu Feb 12 said:


> So, bottom line: I don't see how this information helps anybody, but I do see how it could hurt.



I think the scenario of rates being pulled down is already in full effect, generally. But I think it's caused by some not feeling comfortable charging a decent rate for their work. And this is rooted in a lack of information on both sides. An unfortunately, the more times a producer gets his project scored for next to nothing, the more he comes to expect it the next time.

I don't believe there should be just a "lucky few". My only income comes from my music and sound business, and honestly if the potential income dropped below a certain level, I'd have to do something else. I've got a family to support and need my business to be successful. I think it's actually in my best interest that everyone has all the information they can get.

Personal experience has shown me that there are plenty of composers lining up to take any project for little or no compensation and there are just as many producers searching for someone to take advantage of.

I guess we could be entering the era of music solely as a commodity, but I'm not buying into that yet. The personal creative contribution that a talented composer offers is worth far more than could be saved by sticking to a ridiculously tiny budget.

Or we could all just give in to this: http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/cinescore


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## wonshu (Feb 12, 2009)

I know of one club that publishes fees for music for TV advertisement.

And I've overheard a phone call where a guy used that information to undersell.

That is the reality. Life isn't fair.

While being valuable to the beginner I think it is really dangerous to have that information available to prospective clients, or the competition for that matter!


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## nikolas (Feb 12, 2009)

I'm not sure I (still) understand why this is dangerous.

Normal market works like this: 1 super market does something to the prices, the rest follow pretty much. If the deal is working out for the markets, then they keep doing it and follow each other. If not they stop it, because it's obvious it will lead to no good. Recent example in the UK (2 years ago! :D). Huggies nappies went at a BOGOF (buy 1 get 1 free) offer, something never done from named nappies. Next day pampers followed. They both lost big time, because TESCO (giant of the UK), as well as the other supermarket brands followed up. Prices droped to half (buy 1 get 1 free), but pampers (Procter & Gamble) and huggies LOST huge! The two named brands stopped the BOGOF offer after 6 days (not even a full week and never did it again).

Everyone in the market knows what the other one will do. This idea that I will definately keep a secret what I'm getting seems weird, selfish and harmful at the end of the line.

(have friends working in high marketing places! :D)


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## Will Loconto (Feb 12, 2009)

wonshu @ Thu Feb 12 said:


> That is the reality. Life isn't fair.



I don't think it's about being fair. It's about maintaining some standards in creative industries and people being aware of the standards rather than harming the industries, whether it's consciously or not.



wonshu @ Thu Feb 12 said:


> While being valuable to the beginner I think it is really dangerous to have that information available to prospective clients, or the competition for that matter!



Are you saying it's dangerous because someone could take a potential gig from you if they knew what you charged? In my experience, I haven't lost very many opportunities based solely (or even mostly) on my fees. Only once, several years ago, and that was a situation where a company was willing to work for free to get into working on games. I wasn't willing to work for free, although they did offer me the chance to meet their price.  Strangely, after that, they haven't done any more games. Maybe working for free didn't do what they were hoping for afterall.


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## nikolas (Feb 12, 2009)

Will Loconto @ Thu Feb 12 said:


> Maybe working for free didn't do what they were hoping for afterall.


From my experience, working for FREE in PAID projects is never ever good... But I do hope this is about lowering fees, rather than working for free. I've spend quite some time busting down 'directors' trying to find composers to work for free... :(


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## kdm (Feb 12, 2009)

I agree with Nikolas' example here. Currently the all too common minimum in composing, at least lower end markets, is 0. How can we do worse than that? Everyone knows it, and everyone bargains with that in mind, or at least a competing rate that was based on the willingness to go as low as necessary. 

As dannthr noted, rates are no secret to our clients. We aren't talking about publishing our own rates for all to see and underbid - just setting some recommended minimum and general ranges for others to use as a reference point - maybe we should leave off the upper end to keep the averages from being limited. 

Granted most of us have our own reasonable minimums and walk away from anything less, but as long as the industry itself has a lower perception within its' field of vision, we could eventually be forced to compete with it to some degree.

I won't get into specifics, but I am seeing this happening in markets I never would have expected it, so the trend is working its' way up the ladder. Fwiw, I think we have about 5-10 years before the mass commodity concept firmly takes hold (it's already here, but not affecting the traditional composing markets as much). At that point, if we haven't rebuilt a higher intrinsic value into music, there will be no turning back.


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## Will Loconto (Feb 12, 2009)

nikolas @ Thu Feb 12 said:


> From my experience, working for FREE in PAID projects is never ever good... But I do hope this is about lowering fees, rather than working for free. I've spend quite some time busting down 'directors' trying to find composers to work for free... :(



I'm certainly talking about paid projects. Although, I don't think working for free and scoring a paid film for $500 are all that far apart. The project I was talking about had a million dollar budget, so free music was ridiculous.


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## drasticmeasures (Feb 12, 2009)

_“First of all, I find it interesting that all of the guys who are advocating agents are (relatively) successful composers with agency representation already.”
_

*This is a very astute observation. I think you’ve inadvertently given some great advice here. Well done.*

*If you’re considering me a “successful” composer by any degree, you’re mistaking a pauper for a prince. I’m not in some ivory tower. I’m in the trenches, same as you! Would I have time to write this long ass response if I was on a project? I’m working hard to hopefully turn that “relatively” adverb into “extremely” (I’ll even take “preposterously”).*

_
"I don't know how you came into doing what you're doing, but I assure you that even getting a "one off" agent to represent you on a small potatoes deal is no small task….Even someone who is working regularly and has a good flow of projects can't get an agent.”_

*FWIW, I got my first agent when I was 20 (I had been sending demos and calling EVERY AGENT in town for a couple of years previously) and had no credits, save a couple of shorts and student films. 
A composer who is working constantly shouldn’t have a problem getting an agent, assuming they are seeking representation beyond the top 4 or 5 agencies. If anything, there is a saturation of boutique composer agents/agencies (last time I checked). I’m not claiming it’s a “small task”, but anyone talented and/or busy shouldn’t have too much of a problem.*

*While my career is not impressive (yet), I have a debt of gratitude to those who have represented me. While they often take a commission and didn’t really “work” on it, I’ve also met people, and have gotten opportunities I wouldn’t have had on my own. That’s why I feel writing them off as a waste is misguided.*

_“Secondly, following your logic, Directors, Writers, DP's, and a slew of other creatives working in this industry are apparently in the "installing kitchen tile" category? Because, you see, those are all creatives who, have established rates and minimums even though they don't "sell themselves by the yard" (I'll be waiting for your response on this one).”_

*You’re really comparing a UNIONIZED group of talent (every one of your examples, in fact) to us, who are, of course, NOT unionized. I commend you if you try to start a union, in fact I’ll be the second signature (I do agree that there should be a bare minimum that stops the constant “new lows”). Until then, you’re really talking about being your own little union in a vacuum, which of course, will not work.*

_“Thirdly, in some emerging industries such as videogames, there actually are some standardized rates that most of the main players are following. These are per/minute rates which the majority of the gaming houses (EA, Sony, Bally, Neversoft, etc) apply when budgeting for music.”_

*I’m not really familiar with the gaming industry. However, I’ve been approached twice about possibly scoring a game, and both times my agent was quoted a creative fee, not a “per minute” rate. But that’s my only experience there.*

*I feel it is misguided to use your perception of people’s career to weigh the value of someone’s advice. You can always do whatever you want, but to insinuate that because Jeff is on a major series and has A-list films, or that I’m working and have an agent, that we must have NO IDEA what’s it’s like to be a struggling composer, is shortsighted logic. God forbid someone as successful as Silvestri or whoever gives you advice – cause they REALLY have no idea what it’s like to struggle their way to a successful career.*


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## rgames (Feb 12, 2009)

OK - here's the bottom line: do you really think the composers working for next to nothing are going to care about "normal" or "recommended" rates?

Let's assume this information is available - is the guy working for $50/minute suddenly going to wake up and say "Crap! You mean I should be charging $X per minute?" Of course not. He doesn't care what the rates are; he'll work for nothing, so $50/minute is just fine for him.

That's the fundamental issue: no amount of information is going to change the fact that there are just too many people willing to work for next-to-nothing (or nothing at all).

Do you think that posting recommended wages in sweat shop countries will suddenly increase the wages people earn? No: there are too many people willing to work in the sweat shops at ridiculously low wages.

Having information does nothing to affect the balance between supply and demand.

There are only two ways to increase average composer wages: reduce the number of composers or increase the demand for their services.

rgames


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## nikolas (Feb 13, 2009)

Richard,

so basically you are against all kinds of education, or information being given out, right?

If you actually knew that I charge... x$ for the project, wouldn't you feel like a HUGE SUCKER if you had charged x/5$? Wouldn't you charge the same as me, or as close as possible? The name of the game is to haggle and beat the opponent parties but not at a huge loss of you. 

I was going after a gig for 5000 euros (a tv ad basically). I was told, from the producers that there was another interested party (composer) who had asked 5000. At first I thought that I should go for 15000 or so, cause this was my gut feeling. Then I reminded myself that I'm in Greece now. Then I thought that I can either:
A. Get the gig if I ask for 4950 euros (which was actually what my architect wife recommended, as well as both her architect parents), or
B. Go for 5000 euros and feel fine if I get it, because I'm too damn good to play the game of low blowing the other party!

(I got the gig, btw).

Had I gone for 15000 I would never have gotten the gig. Had I tried 1000 euros because it's "only 30 secs, and I want to set foot", I would feel like a complete moron, not to mention the other party would like to sodomize me afterwards...


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## kid-surf (Feb 13, 2009)

*Nathan is lying...he, in fact, lives in an ivory tower. And he makes all the little people of this world clean it with tiny sponges no bigger than his thumb. What a lying rascal, that guy!

btw -- I QUIT!!!*


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## Hannes_F (Feb 13, 2009)

rgames @ Fri Feb 13 said:


> There are only two ways to increase average composer wages: reduce the number of composers or increase the demand for their services.



That would be the purely neoliberalistic point of view, and somewhat reduced. 

While I agree it is important to understand the market forces, education, information and cooperation can not be ruled out to be part of them.


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## Hannes_F (Feb 13, 2009)

kid-surf,

up to now this has been a healthy discussion that could be of use to all of us. Is it really necessary to damage it?

Please consider editing your post, PLEEEZZ ... :wink:


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## midphase (Feb 13, 2009)

"but to insinuate that because Jeff is on a major series and has A-list films, or that I’m working and have an agent, that we must have NO IDEA what’s it’s like to be a struggling composer, is shortsighted logic. "

I honestly don't know much about you guys except that you seem to be doing lots of Sci/Fi Channel movies, and that Jeff does CSI: Miami. In either case, my guess is that many people have seen and heard your work which in my book makes you (relatively) successful...plus I'm sure you're both swell guys!

Everyone has a different perspective on how to get from point A to point B. In your case, it would appear that even though you had no career (shorts and student films), you were able to get an agent by essentially bugging them until someone finally gave in and took you in? Your strategy seemed to have worked out for you and by being with the same agency which represents Klaus Badelt, Alf Clausen and Cliff Martinez...not too shabby at all!

I don't know what Jeff's story is (perhaps he can share it if he feels like it).

Either way, I'm not trying to attack you guys...obviously you both must have done something right to warrant being where you are today.

However, from my perspective, bugging agents hasn't really worked out for me. The typical response is generally "contact us when you've had a couple of hits....or better yet, don't contact us, we'll contact you."

I'm totally ok with this, I understand that this is the way the industry functions and I accept the idea that if I want an agent, I really need to be on board a project which gets a good deal of buzz and attention. What does bother me is when someone tries to over-simplify it, and if anything, it's those people who usually have the short-sighted logic. If you got an agent with no credits when you were 20...good for you, but don't forget for a second that you are the exception and not the norm.


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## midphase (Feb 13, 2009)

"Do you think that posting recommended wages in sweat shop countries will suddenly increase the wages people earn? No: there are too many people willing to work in the sweat shops at ridiculously low wages. "

Richard, you and I disagree on so many things on such a deeply fundamental level that I don't think there is anything that I could possibly say or do that would get you to even contemplate seeing things differently.

It would be so much easier to digest your type of reasoning if you were a crusty 80-something multi-millionaire who is completely isolated from any interaction with humanity. But to listen to what you have to say, with the understanding that you are a struggling composer (like many of us) and photographer seems so wrong since everything that you say goes totally against benefitting someone in your very position. I really don't get it, it's like a drowning man who reprimands his shipmates because they're trying to save him instead of tending to their regular duties.


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## rgames (Feb 13, 2009)

Kays - of course I'm in favor of improving wages for composers. All I'm saying is that I don't think it's going to make a difference if wage information is available. Actually, I could see it getting worse for some who do better than the averages.

I've been involved with many small businesses, including those dealing with photography and music. So I've been through the process of establishing rates, marketing products and services, watching the market react, then adjusting marketing strategies and rate structures in response. My comments are based on that experience, experience which seems to be consistent with other small businesses.

So put the info together, publish it, and see if our lives improve. I doubt it, but I'm more than happy to be proven wrong 

rgames


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## kid-surf (Feb 13, 2009)

Hannes_F @ Fri Feb 13 said:


> kid-surf,
> 
> up to now this has been a healthy discussion that could be of use to all of us. Is it really necessary to damage it?
> 
> Please consider editing your post, PLEEEZZ ... :wink:



I will not... :twisted: 

A joke here or there never killed anybody. And I'm pretty sure Nathan would get that I was joking. Don't worry I'll get back around to my opinionated opinions. :wink:


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## artsoundz (Feb 13, 2009)

I took it as a joke, Hannes. But don't quit your day gig, KS.


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## wonshu (Feb 14, 2009)

artsoundz @ Fri Feb 13 said:


> I took it as a joke, Hannes. But don't quit your day gig, KS.



L - O - L


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## Synesthesia (Feb 14, 2009)

Too late - he already did!!
>8o :mrgreen:


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## dannthr (Feb 14, 2009)

Richard, I appreciate your fear. But directors aren't going to pay you less because you do not have them fooled--they KNOW how much they can get someone, they know that they can get someone for next to nothing, they want you. Sorry to burst your bubble, but they like you.

However, there are SERIOUSLY composers out there that have NO FREAKING CLUE how much composers can charge for services and they ask as much in threads all over the internet.

They think that if they get paid ANYTHING then they are getting paid BANK! 

Your fear is that if we publish average rates and if those rates are on the LOW end, then yeah, it's going to feel like you're going to have to JUSTIFY your expense.

But you don't, you just stand on your own and say, that's what I cost.

And what you do, is you model that for every new composer coming into the industry.

You say, stand on your own two feet and say THAT'S WHAT MY SERVICES ARE WORTH!

You tell them at the University level.

You tell them before they hit the industry.

When Lawyers go through school they have an idea how much they should be making when they leave.

Same with Engineers.

Same with English majors.

It's about time Composers left school armed with the information that is so freely available to every other discipline.

But the way our industry is set up, we have to GO TO EACH INDIVIDUAL COMPOSER AND ASK THEM.

That's why we do this survey stuff.

We're trying to make our world a better place, Richard, why do you want to argue with that?

http://www.gameaudiosurvey.com/

Help us help you help us make the world a better place, please?


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## Ashermusic (Feb 14, 2009)

IMHO, the standard rate is whatever you can negotiate, and because every kid with a sequencer, or even worse perhaps, a hit record, is now a "film composer", the market is flooded. Further, many are willing to work for nothing or next to nothing for back end royalties and/or getting a foot in the door.

We can post all the "standard rates" we want to post, inform newbies about them, etc. but when the producer/director calls them and say, "I really like your music but we cannot pay you on the front end" or "We can only pay you (fill in your own lowly sum) if they are still willing to work for that, and they probably are, then we are sunk.


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## cc64 (Feb 14, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Sat Feb 14 said:


> We can post all the "standard rates" we want to post, inform newbies about them, etc. but when the producer/director calls them and say, "I really like your music but we cannot pay you on the front end" or "We can only pay you (fill in your own lowly sum) if they are still willing to work for that, and they probably are, then we are sunk.



Well i think we should also the demystify "back-end" for everyone. 

First. It's the lottery unless you know the series is scheduled for prime-time on a major network. Or something that you know for sure that it will play prime time in France or Germany. Otherwise, the lottery...

As for doing a rates list i think it can do more good than harm and it's not such a difficult thing to setup so KDM if you have the time i think it would do good, so i encourage you and i'll be very glad to contribute info.

Best,

CC


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## rgames (Feb 14, 2009)

OK - look guys: I'm not on the opposing side here! Of course I want to get better wages for composers. All I'm doing is explaining my belief that giving composers rate information is not going to make a difference. At the bottom end, they just don't care, so they'll look at the information out of cusiosity but I don't think it will make a difference.

I disagree with you on the lawyers/engineers example. My degrees are in engineering and I never had anyone tell me what salary to expect. Of course they do surveys and provide info, but when you start to negotiate salary, it's useless. So what's the point? It comes down to the comparison of your perceived worth against the salary you're asking for.

Furrthermore, I spent a lot of time on the other side in the engineering world: I made hiring decisions and determined promotions, raises, bonuses, etc. Never once did anyone say "well, so-and-so makes $X, so should I". No, it's always "here's what I want" and you negotiate from there. If we meet somewhere, you get hired or promoted. If not, you pound sand and look elsewhere.

I have a cousin who graduated Georgetown Law last year and has been hunting for a job. He'll take anything at this point. Sure, he has info on salary ranges (which are all over the place) but do you think he cares? Of course not. He just wants a gig.

The bottom line is that any job market is, in fact, a market. So you can collect information and distribute it, but it really has no bearing on where individual people wind up in terms of compensation. It will reflect market conditions but it won't affect market conditions.

Again, I'm not on the opposing team here. I'm just stating what I think is an unfortunate fact.

rgames


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## cc64 (Feb 14, 2009)

rgames @ Sat Feb 14 said:


> I have a cousin who graduated Georgetown Law last year and has been hunting for a job. He'll take anything at this point. Sure, he has info on salary ranges (which are all over the place) but do you think he cares? Of course not. He just wants a gig.
> 
> rgames



Hi Richard,will your cousin take 0$ as a salary? If he graduated from Berkley Music, he might.  I know our list won't do anything for people willing to work for nothing, but it'll be real useful for people who aren't but have no idea where to start.

As i stated in a previous post, information/education is gold. Remember my negotiations where the producer was saying i was asking for a "ridiculous never-heard-of" wage. Hadn't i known first-hand that i was asking the exact same thing as the guy preceding me i would probably have gone for half of what i got.

Best,

CC


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## kdm (Feb 14, 2009)

rgames @ Sat Feb 14 said:


> All I'm doing is explaining my belief that giving composers rate information is not going to make a difference. At the bottom end, they just don't care, so they'll look at the information out of cusiosity but I don't think it will make a difference.



There will always be cheap work for people willing to work cheap, but imho, most of that level will stay where it is. 

I'm mainly concerned about preventing the rest of the industry from adopting an attitude that music is a commodity, or is expendable in terms of budget and creative content. 



> I disagree with you on the lawyers/engineers example. My degrees are in engineering and I never had anyone tell me what salary to expect.
> 
> rgames



Perhaps where you studied/worked it wasn't published, but I have an EE degree and worked in that industry for several years and salaries were in fact very well known when I start college and when I graduated. We were given those ranges in our general engineering classes and the job placement center, along with 5-10 yr trends so we would know what to expect, and what we might be able to negotiate. 

It was, and afaik, still is common knowledge what ranges an Electrical Engineer, Chem Eng., Aero Engineer, Civil Engineer etc could expect starting out, after 5 yrs, and even after 10 yrs, though that varies on whether you stick with development, go to R&D, management, etc.

That industry has never seen salaries decline in the past 20 years that I know of - in fact it has grown most every year - significantly. In some cases, starting salaries for Chem E. were surpassing average 5 yr veteran rates for EE simply because that industry was in high demand/need of qualified Chem E's.


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## rgames (Feb 14, 2009)

kdm @ Sat Feb 14 said:


> Perhaps where you studied/worked it wasn't published, but I have an EE degree and worked in that industry for several years and salaries were in fact very well known when I start college and when I graduated.



Yes - I said in my post the info is available but isn't much use. It all comes down to the individual. We got all of the salary info from the folks who graduated before us - it was all over the map, so what do you do with it? Once in the professional world, I saw lots of offers and counter-offers, both as employee and employer. They're all over the map, also, and are dictated by the individual. (Again, it is a market, after all).



> That industry has never seen salaries decline in the past 20 years that I know of - in fact it has grown most every year - significantly.



Exactly - as I also said, as either employee or employer, I have never seen salary surveys quoted as a basis for a starting salary, raise, promotion, or bouns. So - no use of salary surveys, growing salaries, hmm....

The difference in the engineering job market is that there's a better balance between supply and demand. That's the fundamental issue for composers: supply greatly outstrips demand. Regardless of the balance, though, I don't see salary surveys as anything but interesting anecdotes.

Again, guys, I'm on your side here. I'm just skeptical of any changes coming as a result of salary surveys.

rgames


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## midphase (Feb 14, 2009)

Ok...it's quite simple...

See this?

http://www.salary.com/

We want the same for composers!

Simple no?


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## dannthr (Feb 14, 2009)

http://www.gameaudiosurvey.com (www.gameaudiosurvey.com)


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## kid-surf (Feb 15, 2009)

Synesthesia @ Sat Feb 14 said:


> Too late - he already did!!
> >8o :mrgreen:



Ha! Now that DID make me laugh! :mrgreen: 

artsoundz -- Sometimes I like to amuse myself with a flat joke that is...well...senseless crap. Haven't tried to make a living from it...don't plan to. 

Perhaps I should have said "Nathan will know it's nonsense". I suppose the word "joke" implies comedy.


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## rob morsberger (Feb 16, 2009)

I've been reading this thread with interest. Any initiative that empowers composers
and educates/sets base lines regarding compensation is helpful and a good idea imo.
I would gladly participate.


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## Synesthesia (Feb 16, 2009)

My sob story regarding the queue of people waiting to replace my music for that European agency for nothing has had a bizarrely happy ending. 

After I walked from the 'deal' offer of zero, two days later they came back offering a decent license fee. 

Stick to your guns guys!

Cheers,

Paul


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## rob morsberger (Feb 16, 2009)

yes Paul, good one.
It's always good to be able to say no and walk away from a bad deal.


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## midphase (Feb 16, 2009)

I agree that more often than not....walking away from a deal or counterbidding asking for considerably more has gotten me the job.

It's really weird, but in a way, the harder you are to get, the more they want you. If you bend over backwards right away, they just assume you're desperate and either take even more advantage of you, or end up picking someone else since they figure that there must be something wrong with you.


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## dannthr (Feb 16, 2009)

Desperate people stay desperate.


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## Andreas Moisa (Mar 2, 2009)

The composers-club members have set up a Wiki with lots of information and also some pricing information. I think it's a great thing and will hopefully become a beneficial database for all kinds of filmmusic business-relaled questions (in Germany). So anyone who is a member check the mailing list. The Wiki is considered for members only so I am sorry that I can't go into more details...

If you're interested: www.composers-club.de membership is 120 EUR/year and about 300 professionals are sharing all kinds of information.

Greets,
Andreas


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## Stevie (Mar 9, 2009)

Hi Andreas,

maybe we should also mention, that one has to be member of the GEMA
to become a Composers Club member.


Best,

Stevie


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 9, 2009)

Well, we share all kinds of information here... and it's free! I just don't get this 'club' idea - seems very old-fashioned to me.


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## Andreas Moisa (Mar 9, 2009)

Hi Ned,

you have to regard the composers-club more as a kind of union. This way you can put a certain amount of weight into things - more than you can do as a single person. It's not so much about information that "costs" something - the Wiki that Stevie set up is just a great "side-project" where all members can share their knowledge in one place. 
But you also can get legal advice and controlling of royalty payments... and also the CC represents the interests of a very large group of media composers in germany within the GEMA. Look at the game industry. In Germany you can't work in the game industry when you're in the GEMA - so the CC talks to the GEMA and tries to improve those situations. You can't do this through a forum or as a single person.

Maybe the word "club" sounds like old men with cigars... :D 

Greets,
Andreas


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 9, 2009)

Right, Andreas. I really didn't want to come off as anti-union. I just think that rates information should be shared without having to pay to join a club.


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## Stevie (Mar 9, 2009)

@Ned
Yep, Andreas is right. Club might sound like a Golf Club. 
It is actually an occupational union.

The problem that I personally experienced is that no one wants to
tell what "his work is worth". Some composers have a certain market value
and they don't want others to know what it is like. 
The solution to the problem was a platform where everyone can post rates
anonymously. 
I might be mistaken, but I rarely see a statement here like:
"I composed music for a 90 min feature movie and got like X€".
But then again, I don't read all posts 

Cheerio,

Stevie


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 9, 2009)

Well, FWIW, my last 4 90-min TV-movie gigs (2008-2009), averaging 60-70 min of music. All figures in Canadian dollars:

28,000; 9,000 (docu); 20,000; 20,000. 99% virtual (only one recording of percs musician).

TV-series, reality show (2008-09), 13 x 48-min episodes, wall-to-wall music, much, much repeating of cues from episode to episode: 44,000 (I would have asked for much more had I been expected to write all-new music for each episode).


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## Stevie (Mar 9, 2009)

Haha, Ned, that really makes you simpatico


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## tabbu (Mar 11, 2009)

This is a good topic. I have been following this discussion for a while.

I agree that the music schools should give some kind of a hint for a pricing. I myself studied music business and producing music, but I never heared nothing about pricing or standard fares (in original music composition etc). I really didn't know nothing how much should I ask and is it too much.

Young composers fear that they will ask too much money. I when I was young, didn't think that I could ask too little money. If I got some money that was a victory.

Sure there are many desperate and starving composers who want to have credits and jobs and do it for a little money they can get (and know that they should have more money). But I believe that one of the biggest reason is the lack of knowledge. People just don't know what they CAN or COULD have for the job and what would be a reasonable fee. And this will hurt the business. "One guy did this for 100. And now you want 10 000?!?"

In Finland it is hard to get a good money from the jobs because the budgets are usually very small. However it is relatively easy to estimate the fee for the feature films because the music budget is 1-3% of the overall budget of the film.

Nowdays I use a very simple technique to give price offers. I think what fee wouldn't piss me off and a fee that I would feel happy to do the job  It's been working very well for me. o-[][]-o


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## billval3 (Aug 25, 2009)

I'm sorry I missed this when the conversation originally happened. So did anyone ever set something up? (I mean besides the Game Audio Survey, which I will check out in a moment.)

I, for one, think the info would be very useful. Not as a world-changer. Not as something that will make composer's rates everywhere go up OR down. Just as some stinkin' useful information. I really can't understand the people that are naysayers about this. Whether you understand or appreciate it or not, there are people out there (like me) that are just clueless about what to charge. Yes, I can figure out how much money I need to survive. I get budgeting. But that's not the point, especially if you have a job (like I do), but are trying to get started in another field. In that case, it doesn't matter what I NEED to get paid, the point is not getting started off on the wrong foot by charging way too little and then being labeled as the Wal-Mart of composers.


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## Brian Ralston (Aug 25, 2009)

There are a couple simple truths in regards to what someone is worth as a composer. Or rather what your music is worth. 

And it does not make a hill of beans whether you have formal education or not. Or a smoking demo or not. It will really be based on your past professional work and what you have already established for yourself. Are you in demand or not? It is that simple. The marketplace will dictate it. 

Yes...if you continue to take gigs for free...you will be put into the "Wal-Mart list" of composer guys. The only way to break out of the muck and stop getting paid like crap is to stop accepting it as your fee, even if that means you lose the gig. But if someone does not have ANY professional credits then it will be hard to not do anything for free either. 

So...I would suggest to anyone asking and speculate...if you have more than 2 professional credits...you should not be accepting anything else "for free." You need to get paid something. A couple hundred a minute...or a few thousand an indie, etc...Something. And the key that gives you all the power in the negotiations is...are you ready????....*YOU HAVE TO BE WILLING TO LOSE THE GIG. * That's it. It gives you the power of negotiating. Don't be afraid to let it go. If you feel your music is worth more than what they have...then don't accept the gig. Simple. If you feel the gig is worth their "little amount" because of who is involved or the relationship you already have with them...then take it but don't complain. You knew the trade-off up front. 

Guys get 6 figure incomes from a single movie because their last film grossed millions in the theaters. Or was a hit show in Primetime TV. Not because they have a degree from somewhere...or because their demo was extra special. It was because of the success of a previous project they were related with and most likely IN CHARGE of music on. They don't even have to be extraordinary as a composer to be rewarded with a higher salary on their next gig. It really is about what their last gig did commercially. So, until you have that (which is not entirely in your control, let's face it)...you (I mean you in the general sense)... will not see a major increase in your composing fee. 

That answer does not pay the bills or put food on the table. But it is the truth. You will earn what the marketplace says you are worth. Hopefully, your films will continue to grow in size and the projects you* CHOOSE* to be associated with will put you on a path for that growth in your reputation. The journey will be long though. That is for sure. Anyone not willing or prepared to go at this for a couple decades better get out now...before you are too old to begin in a new field of work. 
o-[][]-o


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## midphase (Aug 26, 2009)

+1 

Whatever Brian said...totally spot on!

Further, I would add that 99.99999% of the films where one is asked to compose for free (or ridiculously low $$) will not go anywhere, straight to DVD if they're lucky, but will receive absolutely no P&A from the distro. In short, they will have no beneficial impact to one's career.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 26, 2009)

Except for the experience. Not trying to play devil's advocate though - I think composing to image for free is stupid (unless you're in love with the project/director).


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## germancomponist (Aug 26, 2009)

I did hundrets of commercials in the past.

In this area there are differences in price of 400 percent for the same work. 300.- euros for a local station and 1.200 or more for a big station.... :

I arranged and recorded many "german schlager music", and here it is the same, depends on a big or short company.

When I began to compose, mix and record, I did something for free, because it was the best advertisement for me. 

But now working for no money? Never again! 

I never do any job for no money. ;.)


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## midphase (Aug 26, 2009)

What is german schlager music?


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## germancomponist (Aug 26, 2009)

midphase @ Wed Aug 26 said:


> What is german schlager music?



La la la la li, bum bam bum.... . It is more volk music with dance rhythm.


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