# Confused on Mixing levels, & Expression, Mod, Volume,Velocity values - How do you approach?



## Peter Costa (Jun 7, 2014)

I feel pretty lost deciding what values I'm using. I've been keeping my expression level at an average level of about 85 for mezzo-forte, 100-110 for Forte, and really only save 110+ for FF sections. I usually try to end phrases with a trail-off of about 30-40 to make it sound a little more realistic. I try to use this same scheme for velocity. Not sure where I should keep my initial CC7 level at, it seems like it depends on the patch. Mod wheel I use when I need to adjust vibrato. 

Then when it comes down to actually adjusting levels I realize I can 1) adjust the individual mic levels in the articulation, 2)the level of each articulation in the instance of Kontakt or Play, then I can 3) adjust the levels inside of the track itself, and then finally a 4) bus to the orchestrated section. So including MIDI levels and mixing levels I have 8 different places where I can make proper adjustments. Then that doesn't even include compression, and master compression and anything else. Any help & advice would be greatly appreciated


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## Rctec (Jun 7, 2014)

I see you've gotten zero responses so far...

Use You Ears! That's what they are there for - stuck there, right at the side of your head...

That's the cynical, patronizing, despairing Zimmer answer. Sorry.

I realize very few people have the chance to learn through the experience of assisting in a studio or with a professional musician anymore, which bombards you with sound and knowledge like nothing else ever will. So learning about signal-flow, summing, good standards and practices to not compromise the amount of bits your sampler has left before it starts sounding like shit - all that is a lot harder to grasp, if your only source is a forum like this. Yes, you could sign up for one of those over-prized schools for DAW lessons, but ultimately, you might as well just go back to my opening sentence: Use Your Ears! (They can be quite effective in combination with an analytical brain) - If you like what you hear, its right. If you don't like what you hear, practice harder!


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## marclawsonmusic (Jun 7, 2014)

Hi Peter,

To keep things simple, load up a patch and just leave the volumes as-is. Then, hold a note and move the mod wheel up and down.

Most modern libraries use the mod wheel to "crossfade" between samples of varying dynamics. So, as you move the mod wheel higher, the instrument will not only get louder, but its timbre will also change.

You will notice this with brass instruments in particular... they get "brassier" (crunchier) at louder dynamics. Try it with a trombone... it should sound nice and mellow with the mod wheel down and then loud and gnarly when you move it up to the top.

So, mod wheel might be a better way to establish dynamics - e.g. pp: 0-20, f=80-100, etc.

I still don't have the hang of expression (CC 11). I was actually watching this thread hoping to hear replies from others on that topic.

Hope this is helpful,
Marc


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## wst3 (Jun 7, 2014)

So apparently I'm in the same age group as Hans... his comment about working with live musicians in a studio with an experienced engineer can't be understated! That's the absolute fastest way to learn, and I'd argue the best.

Now it is true that you probably can't find three or four studios in every little town anymore, but there are still opportunities to sit at that feet of a mentor.

When I was a lad that meant soldering patchbays, fetching coffee, and yes, sweeping the floor sometimes. No, I didn't receive any monetary compensation at first. But I learned so much.

Sometimes I even contributed something... more good luck than good management at first, but that is a progression too.

So I'd say find an opportunity to do some grunt work for an experienced engineer.

The difference, today, is that you need someone that knows about signal flow, gain staging, how a compressor works, etc...

AND...

someone that knows good practices for working with samples. How do you maintain the S/N ratio - which is a big part of your question, volume does one thing, expression does another.

The catch is that every library handles all the CCs a little bit differently. So you probably want to find someone that uses libraries that interest you (or that you own.)

And yes, all of this leads to learning to use your ears. And that is, again MHO, the 'trick' that separates the big dogs from the puppies<G>!

Depending on where you are with respect to your ears I'll also recommend ear training, and specifically Dave Moulton's "Golden Ears". It won't tell you the difference between expression and volume, but it will train your ears so that you can figure out a lot of things for yourself.


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## Jdiggity1 (Jun 7, 2014)

Trial and error.

I focus on the performance of my samples first off, then when i find them convincing, I mix them. Just as if i recorded live musicians.
Your default expression values mean nothing unless that is what sounds good to you.


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## RiffWraith (Jun 7, 2014)

wst3 @ Sun Jun 08 said:


> So apparently I'm in the same age group as Hans... his comment about working with live musicians in a studio with an experienced engineer can't be understated!



No, it can not be. It IS the best way to learn. 

Good post by Marc, and Jd's comment of _trial and error_ is right on as well. Be aware - many libs are different, and what works well for one, may not work as well for an other. You have to keep that in mind when working. 

Also, try not to_ think _too much. Many times, more doing than thinking is the way go. It seems to me that many people overthink their approach, and spend more time on the thought process, and trying to figure out which numbers seem best, as opposed to just doing what sounds best. Obviously, if you are still learning (well, we all are, really) you may not know what sounds "correct", but this is where doing as opposed to thinking comes in. Don't be afraid to make mistakes. That's how you learn. Do whatever seems right at the moment, and compare it to a pro recording of a film score (or whatever genre you are working on). Maybe post an ex. here, and maybe someone will come by with some ideas for you.

Cheers.


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## emid (Jun 7, 2014)

I know very little but I rely on my ears and getting pretty good results now after a long struggle. I am happy to know masters giving the same advice which means I am on the right path. Sorry can't contribute anything except follow what Rctec says.


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## Peter Alexander (Jun 7, 2014)

Rctec @ Sat Jun 07 said:


> I see you've gotten zero responses so far...
> 
> Use You Ears! That's what they are there for - stuck there, right at the side of your head...
> 
> ...



To amplify a little - you only know by relentless listening (which is a kind of practicing) what the dynamic levels for each instrument are. If you score read, this is a great help to train your ears.

With sample libraries, you cannot use the method you've described. For the Visual Orchestration series, I asked each manufacturer where across the mod wheel they had placed each dynamic. All had different answers and all had recorded different dynamic levels. Vienna fortunately gives you manuals that do describe where their dynamics fall.

In the absence of the "live experience" Hans talked about, use score and music to train your ears for the "how" of hearing.


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## Peter Costa (Jun 7, 2014)

Thanks everyone for the great responses.

Hans, Thanks for the great reminder. Being more analytically minded at times I ultimately find myself too focused on finding the "correct" technique and forget the ultimate trump card of "does it sound good". 

Peter, what you addressed is mainly the problem that gets me lost. I was thinking that dynamic levels/CC values varied between each sample library. I work mainly in East West & Spitfire and I think I can see it's a matter of getting very familiar with how each library works. VSL is next on my list, it's great that they publish that information.

Fortunately there are decent studios out here in the desert, so I'll be hitting up an old friend who works off a Neve 8078 and still uses 2" tape  

If anybody has any specs on EastWest Hollywood series and their specs for Expression/Modulation/Velocity to Dynamics that would be awesome. I know some patches only affect vibrato, but any specs would be useful. 

Thanks!


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## novicecomposer (Jun 7, 2014)

Here's HZ's explanation on cc11 vs cc7 vs cc1 vs velocity. It's on my bookmark and I come back to it when I forget:

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... t=#3653156

I follow his method by leaving my cc#7 at 90 and controlling other CCs until I absolutely need to push beyond cc11. It works great for me.

-Heather


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## milesito (Jun 7, 2014)

I transcribe a piece I like and try to match all of the instruments in sound quality timbre balance and volume and reverb... Sometimes I will mock up a couple of short segments of various pieces to get a good average... Depends on the sound I am going for. My Hans zimmer template is balanced very differently from my john Williams template (based on Harry potter pieces...)


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## waveheavy (Jun 11, 2014)

That's what Mike Verta recommends doing. Build a template based on what you're going to use, and balance its instruments using a few bars of several pieces of music. That's what I'm trying to do now, build some templates.

What would be nice to have to do that would be some MIDI files of a few pieces along with .mp3's to make comparisons with.


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## SamGarnerStudios (Jun 11, 2014)

Hey Peter, I'm in the process of doing some tutorial videos that address this topic. I have 2 of 4 uploaded so far. Specifically in part 2 I explain my process in approaching the CC#1 vs CC#7 CC#11 and how I apply that to my mixing. Feel free to check it out, hope it's helpful. 

Part 1http://youtu.be/Ia10YNvgryE
Part 2http://youtu.be/NJc6l7Fk9xU


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