# How do I get vocals to be a little more crisp and pop more in the mix?



## newbycomposer (Feb 12, 2015)

I'm working with 2 types of vocals, screaming and singing. I'm the vocalist, and record stuff out of my home. Mostly just messing around but its REALLY bugging me. Ive tried everything I could think of, little eq, a LOT of eq, compression, no compression, parallel compression, delay, reverb, ect. I can't get them to not sound really flat. I know its not the mic I'm using a shure sm7b. Its the that these bands use to record.

The agonist - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urcLhku0I7Y [1]

Crown the empire - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLPesxVAysg [2]

For today- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6UdI1EuP7w [3]

Fit for a king - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iO-DyFhHQ-w [4]

Wolves a the gate - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5ZlDC5qETE [5]

and possibly this album by wolves at the gate as well - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiIFO54jJZA [6]

Now, obviously there is a chance that its the source material, but honestly I don't think thats it, I mean, I'm not a phenomenal vocalist but I'm pretty decent in this style. The texture is there, the sound is there, but I just can't get it to "pop" in the mix, and I can't seem to pull any color out of it.

Below are 2 examples, the first is a little joke song I wrote a few days ago and recorded, Its not the best mixed song in existence but I feel like the biggest problem is the vocals, they just arn't mixed well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hk8PzoX6vzA [7]

and below is a link to a quick think I mocked up. Its just me doing various styles of vocals completely dry, then with some effects, and then audio out of my camera not coming through the mic, for some reason my freaking phone has more of a crisp sound then the mic does sometimes. (also I literally just copy/pasted the chain from the song above onto the vocals, so its the exact same effects)

https://soundcloud.com/john-agnew/vocal-pop-test [8]

can someone PLEASE tell me why my freaking phone sounds better than a actual good mic? I mean, this is the mic a lot of bands use, its NOT the mic, It might be my interface, its a little alesis i0s express. not exactly high end but its defiantly able to handle the mic,


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## RiffWraith (Feb 12, 2015)

newbycomposer @ Fri Feb 13 said:


> I know its not the mic I'm using a shure sm7b. ... its NOT the mic...



We can easily say it's the mic.

First off, where are you getting the fact that all of those bands use the sm7b in the studio? Don't believe everything you hear and read. Bands and musicians are notoriously famous for "lying" about gear used in the studio. Going all the way back to the '70s, if not before. I saw a vid of Crown the empire in the studio, and assuming that's a real vid of an actual vocal session, he is not using an sm7b.

Secondly, there are a lot of things that go into capturing a great vox take. First is the mic, but there are many other things as well. If you use a top-notch vox mic (U67, as one ex.) it will cover up a lot of deficiencies that may exist in the recording process, whereas if you use a mediocre mic like an sm7b, it won't. That's why I say that we can say it's the mic. Hope I have made sense.

Listening to the SC track, it's plainly obvious to me that a big part of the issue you are having is the room. The room is VERY important when recording. There are other things as well, such as a good mic pre (something, it appears from your post, that you do not have), and a good compressor - which includes proper use of that compressor. Many people think they can insert a sw compressor into a signal chain, turn a couple of knobs, and have proper compression. Doesn't quite work that way. All of these things - great sounding room, mic pre, compressor - are all things that the bands you mentioned had when they recorded. Now, this is not to say you can't get a good vox take with a sm7b - b/c you can. But if you don't have a great room, mic pre, compressor, the sm7b is going to highlight the other weaknesses.

You know what I would do if I were you? Book an hour in a local studio. A_ good _studio - not a studio in someone's basement, with an engineer claiming to be the next Bruce Swedien. Bring your Sure with you. Do a couple of vocal tracks there, with you r mic and the house mic, and talk to the engineer about what you are trying to achieve, and the problems you have at home. Bring the SC recording with you. Doing this won't get you a better mic pre nor will it make your room sound better, but you will learn a thing or two, which can be invaluable long term, if not short term.

Good luck!


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## pmcrockett (Feb 12, 2015)

My guess on the phone sounding better than the actual mic is that the mic is picking up more of the sound of the room than the phone is, so what you're getting through the phone is probably a lot drier and therefore easier to work with. My own (albeit limited) experience mixing DIY non-studio-recorded vocals is that it can be really difficult to work with the inevitable room sound -- so if it sounds like it was recorded in a closet dry, then it will probably sound like it was recorded in a closet no matter what you do to it.


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## newbycomposer (Feb 12, 2015)

I know those bands use the mic because Ive seen various videos, pictures, ect. where they are recording and using it. I know that crown the empire is using it on at least one track off the new album there is a short clip they posted of him in the studio, same with wolves at the gate and the agonist and for today. I don't think those bands use that because someone told me that, but because Ive seen various studio videos and whatnot where I saw them using the mic.

Here is the video where crown the empire was recording some vocals https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=712339348797593

Wolves at the gate https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nj4YgXeJdk&t=1m32s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nj4YgXeJdk&amp;t=1m32s)

For today https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sw78K3v4pI&t=2m44s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sw78K3v4pI&amp;t=2m44s)

The agonist http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTsr1xf4HeU&t=0m37s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTsr1xf4HeU&amp;t=0m37s)

Fit for a king- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3xnIYFkBbg (they are recording cleans with them in this video but I'm assuming they also used them for screams)

These bands have no reason to lie about using that mike, they arn't promoting it, its simply in the video. Yea they removed the pop filter on it so it looks a little different in some of those videos, but its the same mic. If anything they would lie UP and pretend like they recorded with a much more expensive mic, it makes no sense that they would say they recorded with what could be perceived as a lower quality mic. 


I don't really have a room, I mean, just my bedroom, I'm very limited in that regard, best I could do is run the mic into my closet and hope the cloths dampen the sound, but honestly I don't think your hearing the room much in my recording. Its a dynamic mic, its not picking up that stuff, heck, Ive actually recorded once or twice without using headphones because even if I super compress the sound you can't hear the speakers , the mic isn't picking it up. Its one of the reasons I went with this dynamic and didn't spring for a decent compression mic.

I don't have the time or money to go to a local studio, I enjoy making music, and producing it, I work mainly out of my home in my free time, and the whole point is I want to get better. I don't think the room is going to magically make the overtones better. Also, there are NO good studios in my area, I live in a college town of about 60,000. There is a studio but its run out of the local music shop and honestly Ive heard some of the stuff that comes out of it, Ive got friends producing better stuff out of their basement.


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## RiffWraith (Feb 12, 2015)

newbycomposer @ Fri Feb 13 said:


> I know those bands use the mic because Ive seen various videos, pictures, ect. where they are recording and using it.



Ok, below is one shot of CTE recording a vox track, and that clearly is not an SM7B.

_These bands have no reason to lie about using that mike, _

Sure they do. And as I have stated, it happens quite frequently.

_I don't think the room is going to magically make the overtones better. _

The room will magically make the recording ALOT better, in part by drastically reducing the overtones currently present.

_but honestly I don't think your hearing the room much in my recording_

I hear the room A TON in your recording. Just b/c_ you _don't hear it, doesn't mean someone with more experienced ears can't. I was trying to help you, and part of that requires honesty. Please do not tell me what I can and can not hear.


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## rJames (Feb 12, 2015)

I didn't read the OP thoroughly and boy was I surprised.

That is seriously hard to listen to. But I did listen. I'm still not quite sure what I'm listening to. I know that screaming is a thing in some pop music but I'm still never ready for it. I was listening to some killer guitar chops in a song that a friend sent and then they started screaming. I was thinking, "it was so cool, why are you ruining it..."

But anyway, the "room sound," that we're talking about is that loud ambient sound that jumps up in volume when the screaming stops. Its really really compressed so the background is amplified tons.

If you had a clean vocal (scream, whatever) you could boost from 1K or 2K and up a bit to help make it crisper and pop through the mix more. Also, there's going to be reverb in the mix which helps make it wider and smoother. Its so raw that I"m not sure how to listen.

You could have cable problems or other "under the hood" audio problems that make your mic sound worse than your phone.

When you have the mic "live" and are not singing, it should be quiet. No noise whatsoever. I think something is bad in your input chain. There's no input chain in the phone, so it sounds better.

Also, once you get a clean recording, you can add in frequencies to make it a flatter sound using a Match EQ. Sometimes the frequencies that cut can be brought up by doing that.

Put pink noise into a Match EQ. Once you've set the pink noise, turn it off. Then put your vocal in on the "listen" side. Bring the amount of "matching EQ" that you are going to use down to anywhere between 15% to 40% depending on what sounds right. Yes, you are actually, trying to make your vocal sound like pink noise. It just brings out the frequencies that are not there. You may need to manually drop the low freqs down to 0 or you will be adding a bunch of mud into your vocal.

Ron


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## newbycomposer (Feb 12, 2015)

@RiffWraith

I'm here for help, and its very well possible I'm completely wrong, I'm down with that, but I'm walking through my thought process. yes CTE doesn't JUST use that mic,but they use it at LEAST in part because that video I posted of them wasn't the only one Ive seen with them using that mic, its a mute point though as several other bands are using it. As for them lying, what motivation do they have to low and say they are using WORSE equipment than they actually are? I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm sure some of them lie about stuff, but if they were being paid by shure or something to promote the mic then I think it would be more than a quick glimpse in a video that most people are going to miss if they arn't looking for it. As for room, I'll give you that one, so how do I go about managing that sound, because quite frankly the only other place I have to record is my close. What works better, what can I rig up to make it sound better. I have tall ceilings and there is nothing I can do about that. 

You don't have to be rude and condescending about it.

@rJames

haha yea a lot of people are suprised with screams, Ive never understood why, Ive always related them to the sound of Bel canto in opera because of the texture/energy it has(diablo swing orchestra comes to mind). In some cases you can think of a scream as a pitch with extreme vibrato. but I digress, its what has always spiked a fire in my and pushed my passion for music. 

How much of a boost would you suggest? If you want to hear what it would sound like un raw listen to the second to last link as thats got reverb and stuff on it.


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## ryans (Feb 12, 2015)

Hi,

I'm hearing a lot of room as well.. this is likely your biggest issue. Could be the mic too... It's possible for a mic to sound great on one singer and not so great on a different singer. Although I have no experience recording this vocal style..

If you don't have the budget for studio time. Definitely try recording in your closet.. your car, a friend's house.. try stapling some blankets to your walls and ceiling.. I've been there  keep experimenting!

Good luck,

Ryan


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## pkm (Feb 12, 2015)

While the SM7b is hardly a mediocre mic, and I've been in a few big sessions where it easily beat $3000+ mics, a good mic is only a good mic if it's right for the source material.

Sometimes a U47 is the best mic for a singer and an SM7b sounds terrible, sometimes an SM7b is the best mic and a U47 sounds only pretty good. It's just about finding the right mic to complement the source.


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## gsilbers (Feb 12, 2015)

i think its just the mix. the vocal sounds w a lot of echo. 
lower or use different reverb. the mix is very loud compared the the vocal. 
also, a lot of times those vocals are triple tracked, exactly the same so it gives a fuller sound. 
check out some of dave pensados youtube videos about mixing for some vocal tricks to make it shine. 
you can also add a gate on the mix when the vocal gets triggered so it ducks a little w/o being noticeable.


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## bbunker (Feb 12, 2015)

There's a ton of room in the recording, so any dynamics processing just makes the room louder. It's hard to make a vocal 'pop' out of the mix when it doesn't sound present because of the room sound.

Bel Canto, huh? So you're connecting screaming with Lucia di Lammermoor? I'll just go with a "I don't hear it."


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## Rctec (Feb 12, 2015)

Simple. Wrong mic and Far Too Much room colouration.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 12, 2015)

And some lozenges.


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## newbycomposer (Feb 12, 2015)

bbunker @ Thu Feb 12 said:


> There's a ton of room in the recording, so any dynamics processing just makes the room louder. It's hard to make a vocal 'pop' out of the mix when it doesn't sound present because of the room sound.
> 
> Bel Canto, huh? So you're connecting screaming with Lucia di Lammermoor? I'll just go with a "I don't hear it."




haha think of it this way. Whats the complaint you hear a lot of time for the reason people don't like opera? "I can't understand it" and "I feel like I'm getting yelled at". What are the 2 complaints most people have against screaming? Lol, For me I think its the color and energy, Vibrato used in bel canto can vastly change the color of the voice, its all about control, screaming is similar, its a color/texture change, add a whole new dynamic to the voice to both listen for and to produce as a vocalist. 

2:32-3:35 in this song is a pretty good example, its not exactly Bel Canto but its harkens more to that than any pop singing Ive ever heard. Its has the energy similar to screams 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aKh19YVcJo

It also reminds me of brass instruments, I feel like screaming has a very similar texture as the upper dynamics/range in many brass instruments, both have that kind of "bite" to them. Ive heard some bands (turisas comes to mind) that blend them together quite well.

-----------------------------------------------

Everyone else

Ok, so looks like room is kinda a problem, any solutions? Closest I can think of to get a bunch of sheets and rig up something around my mic, but I don't really have room for that. I guess I could just throw my comforter over my head and the mic if I want to be really undignified about it


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 13, 2015)

What I'd do: use the thickest foam you can find, skewered on a mic stand directly behind the mic, then get right up to the mic - with double pop screens if necessary.

Auralex makes foam with a hole in it for the mic stand. I forget what it's called.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 13, 2015)

http://media.musiciansfriend.com/is/ima ... 50x750.jpg


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## MA-Simon (Feb 14, 2015)

Why would you do that to your throath. (o) 

Hm It sounds to me like you have some type of machine running in your background, pc, washing machine, maybe a water-boiler in the cellar? 

I had usable result by... crouching under the table in my room and building a magic-fortress with bed-covers. Worked nice for me. But I don't record vocals.
And... I had to resort at recording after midnight. If you are screaming like that though, you may want to inform your neighbours first.


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## AC986 (Feb 14, 2015)

A magic fortress?


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## MA-Simon (Feb 14, 2015)

Something like this, but less fancy :o :
http://www.buzzfeed.com/jeremybender/bl ... .gkKzpXx6k


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## spiralbill (Feb 14, 2015)

Sorry for generalizing, but in general "crisp"= 7-15Khz range and if you want it to "pop" more in the mix, 1.5-1.8Khz or sometimes even 2k are very common for boosting.

Careful with those 1-2K freq though, too much boosting could result in a very "radio-ish" or "boombox" sounding vocal.

Be gentle with the eq you use. For some aggressive eq like those API 550, a 2dB boost (which is the lowest setting) could still be too much.

Ps. the consistency of the vocal achieved by compressor or automation could also affect the "pop" factor.

Best,
Bill


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## AC986 (Feb 15, 2015)

MA-Simon @ Sat Feb 14 said:


> Something like this, but less fancy :o :
> http://www.buzzfeed.com/jeremybender/bl ... .gkKzpXx6k



No. 2 looks good. I could wear my Lawrence of Arabia gear and ride off into the sunset a happy man!

Carry on.


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## db0007 (Feb 15, 2015)

I'm a mix engineer 1st, production 2nd. Best and fastest way for me to get the vocals to sit in the mix is start to mix in mono. I also use LCR method after I'm comfortable with the mix in mono and switch to stereo. All EQ in mono though. Good luck.


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## db0007 (Feb 15, 2015)

Saw some people post about room treatment after the fact. Build your own!!! 1x3 pieces of pine and some roxul or Owens Corning insulation and fabric. All you need is a drill and a staple gun. You can buy pretty much everything you need for around $200 to make roughly $1200 in treatment.


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## lee (Feb 15, 2015)

db0007 @ Mon Feb 16 said:


> Saw some people post about room treatment after the fact. Build your own!!! 1x3 pieces of pine and some roxul or Owens Corning insulation and fabric. All you need is a drill and a staple gun. You can buy pretty much everything you need for around $200 to make roughly $1200 in treatment.



+1

I built two foldable V-shaped walls, they're portable and an inexpensive diy vocal booth.


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## Markus S (Feb 16, 2015)

Dude, stop yelling we are a bunch of settled composers here..

Seriously, I didn't use the mic myself but apparently it's a classic and even Rick Rubin uses it for vocals, so I doubt the mic is the problem.

1. Your *pre amp* is very important, do you have a decent one (and a sound card for that matter)?

2. Your mix is *muddy *compared to your references, be it the vocal part or the guitars - clean it up (200 to 500 Hz) and it will make the sound shine.

3. Move away from the wall - you are amplifying the room sound. Go to the *center *of the room or to a bigger room.

4. Don't strangle your microphone, it's not its fault, *don't touch it *or you are creating all sort of parasite noises and low end rumble.

Hope this helps,


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