# Not impressed by Orchestral Tools



## ZeroZero (Jan 2, 2021)

No impressed by Orchestral Tools Woodwinds. I have been taking a real good listen to their samples as I balance my template. First I find them way lower in volume that my other samples (of the same instruments playing the same volume). Oboes for example are registering at -45~ dB on K-20 scale, at velocity reading of 128. If I look at the samples in EQ I find that they have a rumble - a higher noise floor that other samples and I have to employ a filter to eradicate it. On the higher end some samples have got a kind of grainy tinkling sound, like running sand grains across paper, this is integrated into the natural partials so must stay. Couple this with no manual, and laggy unhelpful tech support. and I could be a lot happier

People have other opinions I know, but this is my opinion. I have been very carefully comparing them to other libraries and this is my finding, my opinion


Z


----------



## DarkShinryu (Jan 2, 2021)

Since you mention low volume i assume you're talking about the revive edition.
I have legacy and revive and i much prefer the legacy instruments, if you didn't try them maybe give them a go?


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 2, 2021)

No manual? The links to the manuals are at the bottom of this page...

https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/article/70-download

Are you simply looking at the visuals for the eq, or using your ears? Honest question.


----------



## muziksculp (Jan 2, 2021)

Let's wait for the OT Berlin Woodwinds (SINE) version. Hopefully they have improved the volume of the woodwinds. I agree, they are too low.


----------



## Casiquire (Jan 2, 2021)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> No manual? The links to the manuals are at the bottom of this page...
> 
> https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/article/70-download



That was rude, got my hopes up 😆


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 2, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> That was rude, got my hopes up 😆


Are those not the manuals?


----------



## PaulieDC (Jan 2, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> That was rude, got my hopes up 😆


This is off topic, but your reply to Jeremy Spencer duplicated the quoted reply... that's happened to me a couple times since the upgrade. Not sure who to tell.


----------



## ZeroZero (Jan 2, 2021)

This is what Orchestral Tools Help said to me when I asked: 



_"We do not have a manual as such, but we have our helpdesk which acts as a manual for all of our collections.
It is linked in my signature.

If you have any other questions just let us know, we are here to help! 
best"_

Ariel
OT Support


----------



## Casiquire (Jan 2, 2021)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Are those not the manuals?


No those are download links if you'd like to download the .rar manually. Manuals do not appear to be available from OT, but a helpful member here did link an archive of them once


----------



## ZeroZero (Jan 2, 2021)

Yes, That's not a manual, its about _manually _downloading files


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 2, 2021)

Hmmmm, that’s not what I’m seeing. Here’s info from one of the links for “sustains”...






User Guide - Single Articulation Patches - Orchestral Tools Helpdesk


Common questions and support documentation




orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com


----------



## ProfoundSilence (Jan 2, 2021)

If downloading is a prerequisite for being a manual(which it's not) you can download the website

Infact you could just download VIC and call it a manual

Just increase the master volume of Kontakt if you use revive, or ofcourse legacy is an option(I prefer legacy)

The master knob on Kontakt exists for a reason, and I use that to gainstage nearly every library


----------



## jbuhler (Jan 2, 2021)

They used to have better manuals before the Sine update of their website. I’m not sure what happened to the capsule guides. The Sine instrument documentation is pretty minimal. I’ve found OT support very responsive so long as I wasn’t trying to contact them over a holiday or when they were in the midst of a product roll out.


----------



## Kony (Jan 2, 2021)




----------



## ProfoundSilence (Jan 2, 2021)

Kony said:


>



Why isn't my oboe as loud as my 66 celli patch by default, refunddd


----------



## Hanu_H (Jan 2, 2021)

Kony said:


>


I prefer this to the normalized libraries.


----------



## MaxOctane (Jan 2, 2021)

Where is the Kontakt Master Volume knob? I can't find it inside the wrench editor?

I just add a Gain plugin if I need it. Easy.

That said, the low volume on BWW and Berlin Special Bows is giving me a better appreciation for proper mixing. I'm doing a quick mockup of Dvorak's 9th and in some sections I can barely hear the individual woodwind instruments... but this is exactly as it should be! Before, I was cranking up all the instruments so they could all be heard clearly, but that's not what happens in real life.

Like with cooking, you don't blast every spice and ingredient at full force.


----------



## Casiquire (Jan 2, 2021)

MaxOctane said:


> Where is the Kontakt Master Volume knob? I can't find it inside the wrench editor?
> 
> I just add a Gain plugin if I need it. Easy.
> 
> ...


Exactly. That's why i feel these are the most well balanced libraries, despite some internal imbalance between articulations here and there. The tracks themselves can pretty much be set to the same volume and it comes out sounding right


----------



## Marsen (Jan 2, 2021)

I don´t see any problems with OT Woodwinds yet.


----------



## jononotbono (Jan 2, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> he master knob on Kontakt exists for a reason, and I use that to gainstage nearly every library


I would pick a fight. Mainly because I’m English, and drinking. 1 step away from ripping the sleeves off my T Shirt.

You say “nearly every library”. Which ones don’t you then!!?! 😂


----------



## ryans (Jan 2, 2021)

Woodwinds are pretty quiet, relative to the rest of the orchestra.

With the exception of the piccolo, which is actually fatal in its upper register.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 2, 2021)

MaxOctane said:


> Where is the Kontakt Master Volume knob? I can't find it inside the wrench editor?


It's on the main GUI, in the upper right hand corner.


----------



## jononotbono (Jan 2, 2021)

But none of this is detrimental to a library is it. Suddenly learning how to balance a template becomes incredible knowledge. I’ve bitched about it being “quiet” before but that’s no fault of OT. There is no set standard in volume and gain staging between different library Devs. There’s no such thing.

What’s wrong with just turning it up?

What’s funny is, BWW is one of the best Winds library you can buy commercially. Just turn your patches up?


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 2, 2021)

jononotbono said:


> What’s wrong with just turning it up?


Absolutely nothing, a basic practice for any VI composer.


----------



## Beans (Jan 2, 2021)

Yeah, this was the first thing I did with Revive. I fiddled with the Kontakt master volume and worked through the chain. 

Just like every other library.


----------



## ProfoundSilence (Jan 2, 2021)

jononotbono said:


> I would pick a fight. Mainly because I’m English, and drinking. 1 step away from ripping the sleeves off my T Shirt.
> 
> You say “nearly every library”. Which ones don’t you then!!?! 😂


My jono stream highlight soundboard rips because your mic is well gainstaged so I don't have to do anything


----------



## jononotbono (Jan 2, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> My jono stream highlight soundboard rips because your mic is well gainstaged so I don't have to do anything


I’m about to start my god tier streaming career! Gonna wear a lead cod piece so my wifi doesn’t drop out when our streams inevitably cross!


----------



## Beans (Jan 2, 2021)

jononotbono said:


> I’m about to start my god tier streaming career! Gonna wear a lead cod piece so my wifi doesn’t drop out when our streams inevitably cross!


----------



## muziksculp (Jan 2, 2021)

@ZeroZero ,

Your topic title is a bit misleading, (too generalized) since you are specifically criticizing their woodwinds revive libary, and imho. kind of negative publicity to one of the major sample developers today.

You might want to edit your topic title.


----------



## borisb2 (Jan 2, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> The master knob on Kontakt exists for a reason, and I use that to gainstage nearly every library


Same here 👍

Even within a library (HWS comes to mind) I re-balanced all the instruments


----------



## MaxOctane (Jan 2, 2021)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> It's on the main GUI, in the upper right hand corner.


I figured out my problem -- I keep the "Master" pane closed. Thanks.


----------



## kgdrum (Jan 2, 2021)

MaxOctane said:


> I figured out my problem -- I keep the "Master" pane closed. Thanks.


Great News 👍

Could you please edit the title of the thread to say SOLVED


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 2, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> Great News 👍
> 
> Could you please edit the title of the thread to say SOLVED


The OP is @ZeroZero


----------



## Land of Missing Parts (Jan 2, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> They used to have better manuals before the Sine update of their website. I’m not sure what happened to the capsule guides. The Sine instrument documentation is pretty minimal. I’ve found OT support very responsive so long as I wasn’t trying to contact them over a holiday or when they were in the midst of a product roll out.


I do wish there was better documentation for the post-SINE releases (Modus, Sound Packs, etc). 

It'd be awesome if they could update the Helpdesk to include that information.

Also, BWW is the best overall winds library in my opinion, so the thread title and original post is just a tad silly.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 2, 2021)

MaxOctane said:


> I figured out my problem -- I keep the "Master" pane closed. Thanks.


Actually, I’m still learning “noob” stuff with Kontakt after all these years. I recently discovered something similar with the snapshot icon.


----------



## kgdrum (Jan 2, 2021)

my mistake,I thought it was the OP


----------



## NoamL (Jan 2, 2021)

borisb2 said:


> Same here 👍
> 
> Even within a library (HWS comes to mind) I re-balanced all the instruments


Yep the cello spiccatos are approximately 5dB loud compared to the other shorts of the same section! I fixed it with the mics inside PLAY... inside VEP... set it and forget.

Same thing with Spitfire's Abbey Road library, I've got the horns and trumpet longs set to 9dB less than the shorts and swells.... (or vice versa). Try it out if you own that library, pay special attention to the release tails and you will wonder how they let this happen when the volume imbalance is actually very palpable playing the library out of the box.

it's part of the job, you can't trust any sample library out of the box unfortunately. Who knows how or why these imbalances get into the products but "we don't normalize our samples" is the _bare minimum_ of dynamic accuracy - I wouldn't buy a library that didn't do this.


----------



## purple (Jan 2, 2021)

ZeroZero said:


> at velocity reading of 128.


Wait, did you not turn the modwheel up or are you talking about the modwheel here? The "volume" that the virtual instrument is playing at is dictated by CC1 not velocity...




ZeroZero said:


> If I look at the samples in EQ I find that they have a rumble


What do you mean "look at the EQ"? You mean you don't notice a rumble but then the EQ window shows activity you can't even hear?


----------



## sluggo (Jan 2, 2021)

To everyone who thinks it’s no big deal that BWW is so quiet and to just “turn the volume up”...
Here’s the problem:
It’s a totally unnecessary flaw that takes more time away from composing and creates more time spent fixing. That’s all we do with these libraries all day, fixing and tweaking. 
what percentage of your time do you actually spend composing?
It’s a criminal flaw in such an otherwise precise and well executed library.


----------



## ProfoundSilence (Jan 2, 2021)

sluggo said:


> To everyone who thinks it’s no big deal that BWW is so quiet and to just “turn the volume up”...
> Here’s the problem:
> It’s a totally unnecessary flaw that takes more time away from composing and creates more time spent fixing. That’s all we do with these libraries all day, fixing and tweaking.
> what percentage of your time do you actually spend composing?
> It’s a criminal flaw in such an otherwise precise and well executed library.



It takes like 2 seconds to move the fader or controller you should literally always be doing this no matter the library, it's just basic mixing regardless of genre


----------



## Casiquire (Jan 2, 2021)

sluggo said:


> To everyone who thinks it’s no big deal that BWW is so quiet and to just “turn the volume up”...
> Here’s the problem:
> It’s a totally unnecessary flaw that takes more time away from composing and creates more time spent fixing. That’s all we do with these libraries all day, fixing and tweaking.
> what percentage of your time do you actually spend composing?
> It’s a criminal flaw in such an otherwise precise and well executed library.


It's not a flaw. I'm very happy about it.

Shouldn't take any extra time anyway, gain staging is required on pretty much every track


----------



## Land of Missing Parts (Jan 2, 2021)

sluggo said:


> To everyone who thinks it’s no big deal that BWW is so quiet and to just “turn the volume up”...
> Here’s the problem:
> It’s a totally unnecessary flaw that takes more time away from composing and creates more time spent fixing. That’s all we do with these libraries all day, fixing and tweaking.
> what percentage of your time do you actually spend composing?
> It’s a criminal flaw in such an otherwise precise and well executed library.


The issue of low volume shouldn't take much time. Turn the volume up then re-save the patch.

However, the issue of imbalance is a persistent problem. Though that's true of most sample libraries, really.


----------



## ned3000 (Jan 2, 2021)

I have to agree that the lack of manuals for OT libraries is a problem. If they were super simple and easy to figure out, that would be one thing, but I find them to be more complicated than most. That's ok, and the flexibility can be useful, but not having manuals comes off as lazy.

I know they have the general manuals and a smattering of "notes" about the specific libraries, but that's not really enough (and is kind of confusing in and of itself.)


----------



## Nils Neumann (Jan 2, 2021)

sluggo said:


> To everyone who thinks it’s no big deal that BWW is so quiet and to just “turn the volume up”...
> Here’s the problem:
> It’s a totally unnecessary flaw that takes more time away from composing and creates more time spent fixing. That’s all we do with these libraries all day, fixing and tweaking.
> what percentage of your time do you actually spend composing?
> It’s a criminal flaw in such an otherwise precise and well executed library.


you only buy libraries that are totally balanced with every other library you own because using a volume knob is unnecessary flaw?
Then please don’t buy CSS, you might don’t like the legatos in there.


----------



## borisb2 (Jan 2, 2021)

To be able to create a balanced mix is 101 for any serious media composer in my opinion. Back in the days we recorded human beings (called singer) and I don‘t recall mentioning to a singer „you know, it‘s a criminal flaw to sing 6db too quiet...“ no, it was my f-word job to create a balanced mix in the end. 😀
And as already mentioned it doesnt take long to balance out a template - and after that only tweak the fader to taste in a given production.


----------



## Novatlan Sound (Jan 2, 2021)

ned3000 said:


> I have to agree that the lack of manuals for OT libraries is a problem. If they were super simple and easy to figure out, that would be one thing, but I find them to be more complicated than most. That's ok, and the flexibility can be useful, but not having manuals comes off as lazy.
> 
> I know they have the general manuals and a smattering of "notes" about the specific libraries, but that's not really enough (and is kind of confusing in and of itself.)


What additional content would you like to have in the manuals?
The current Helpdesk content is 100% the same that was in the PDFs of yore. Very, very few people ever downloaded the PDFs, most of users just used the web version, which was always the way it is today (just in a different system, but there were never collection-specific user guides on the web version).
I'll be happy to try to include anything that's useful!

For the SINE collections there absolutely nothing that is specific to one collection only. For the Capsule versions, there are some things, but they depend on the Capsule version. So if your collection does not have a particular Capsule version, that collection will not have a particular feature. Since SINE's collections automatically use features introduced in newer SINE versions, I did not find the need to essentially dulicate the same user guide 30 times. But if any information is missing, I will be very happy to revise!

As for the Collection Notes: Yes, I would very much like to do these for the newer collections, too. But that project is always on the backburner because there are more important things. But I fully agree these should be there


----------



## David Kudell (Jan 2, 2021)

I would say BWW is one of the top WW libs used by composers. Seems to be working quite well for all of them.


----------



## ProfoundSilence (Jan 2, 2021)

David Kudell said:


> I would say BWW is one of the top WW libs used by composers. Seems to be working quite well for all of them.


They just don't know any better poor saps

xD


----------



## dzilizzi (Jan 2, 2021)

I'm thinking this might be an advantage to setting up templates. You could set the volume once and be done with it fo most uses. Make templates for Epic music louder, emotional music normal, etc...


----------



## Kony (Jan 2, 2021)

Track presets are also a good option.


----------



## Casiquire (Jan 2, 2021)

Novatlan Sound said:


> What additional content would you like to have in the manuals?
> The current Helpdesk content is 100% the same that was in the PDFs of yore. Very, very few people ever downloaded the PDFs, most of users just used the web version, which was always the way it is today (just in a different system, but there were never collection-specific user guides on the web version).
> I'll be happy to try to include anything that's useful!
> 
> ...


I want to know what each of the buttons and knobs do. I strongly prefer a pdf I can download and search over a web version. No, not all the buttons and knobs are intuitive, and I'm not even on complicated instruments yet like when BWW and BB port over. I want it to load from the SINE player directly if possible. Literally, a manual.


----------



## ProfoundSilence (Jan 3, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I want to know what each of the buttons and knobs do. I strongly prefer a pdf I can download and search over a web version. No, not all the buttons and knobs are intuitive, and I'm not even on complicated instruments yet like when BWW and BB port over. I want it to load from the SINE player directly if possible. Literally, a manual.


Ironically sine has a browser so it might be a website anyways


----------



## Michael Antrum (Jan 3, 2021)

I’ve owned BWW for many years, and upgraded it to revive when that came out.

IMO, This is a premium priced library, and not to have a manual available is a ridiculous omission. When I bought BWW it took me a very long time to get to grips with it as I worked things out and picked up snippets on the forum.

Capsule is quite powerful, even if it is resource hungry, but a manual should not be optional at this price point.


----------



## ned3000 (Jan 3, 2021)

Novatlan Sound said:


> What additional content would you like to have in the manuals?


Just as an example I opened "Flute 1 Multi" from Revive woodwinds.

What do SUSIR, SUSIW, and SUSIP mean? Ok, I go to the website click "Support". There's a search box: "Search results for SUSIR: No articles were found". Same for the others.

Ok, I need to drill down into the hierarchy of individual documents? Kontakt Collections -> Multi Articulation Patches and then a subdocument on that page, also called "Multi Articulation Patches". This doesn't tell me what the stuff on my multi articulation patch means. Neither do any of the other files on the Multi Articulation page.

Maybe I need to click "Single Articulation Patches" (To find out what the stuff in the *multi* articulation patch in question is)? Are those cryptic strings going to be described in "Standard Articulations"? Nope. The "Single Articulations" subdocument on the "Single Articulations" page? Nope. "Sustains"? Still no hits when searching the page for those acronyms but if I read the whole thing I can deduce that those must correspond to "Romantic Vibrato", "Without Vibrato" and "Progressive Vibrato". And it shows a picture of a little dialog box that I don't think exists any more.

Just about every other orchestral plugin I own has a decent searchable document that defines all (or at least most) of the potentially confusing terms used therein. 

Sorry about the rant, but I find that kind of thing aggravating.


----------



## ZeroZero (Jan 3, 2021)

purple said:


> Wait, did you not turn the modwheel up or are you talking about the modwheel here? The "volume" that the virtual instrument is playing at is dictated by CC1 not velocity...
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean "look at the EQ"? You mean you don't notice a rumble but then the EQ window shows activity you can't even hear?





purple said:


> Wait, did you not turn the modwheel up or are you talking about the modwheel here? The "volume" that the virtual instrument is playing at is dictated by CC1 not velocity...
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean "look at the EQ"? You mean you don't notice a rumble but then the EQ window shows activity you can't even hear?


Modwheel for all instruments is set to 100. EQ rumble may well be inaudible, but it adds up in the mix and contributes general fuzz. I filter it out. I am balancing at upper velocities to ensure headroom does not peak. Other libraries are not giving me the issues that O.T are giving. There floor noise is greater


----------



## ZeroZero (Jan 3, 2021)

ned3000 said:


> Just as an example I opened "Flute 1 Multi" from Revive woodwinds.
> 
> What do SUSIR, SUSIW, and SUSIP mean? Ok, I go to the website click "Support". There's a search box: "Search results for SUSIR: No articles were found". Same for the others.
> 
> ...


What's even more aggravating is waiting days for a response whilst the composition is on hold. Creative juices are sucked away by constant set up issues- as we all know well. (Aside: that's why I am working so hard on getting my template right, its taking weeks - this will vastly improve with MIDI 2)


----------



## GNP (Jan 3, 2021)

ZeroZero said:


> Modwheel for all instruments is set to 100. EQ rumble may well be inaudible, but it adds up in the mix and contributes general fuzz. I filter it out. I am balancing at upper velocities to ensure headroom does not peak. Other libraries are not giving me the issues that O.T are giving. There floor noise is greater


Looks like that is what you have to do in the meantime, if you wanna continue using OT's stuff. If not, use other libaries or something, and get on with life!


----------



## ZeroZero (Jan 3, 2021)

jononotbono said:


> But none of this is detrimental to a library is it. Suddenly learning how to balance a template becomes incredible knowledge. I’ve bitched about it being “quiet” before but that’s no fault of OT. There is no set standard in volume and gain staging between different library Devs. There’s no such thing.
> 
> What’s wrong with just turning it up?
> 
> What’s funny is, BWW is one of the best Winds library you can buy commercially. Just turn your patches up?


Turning it up is what I do but in comparison to other libraries many patches are way out, way way out. I also said that their patches have more floor rumble, and some have some kind of seedy high range tinkles mixed in with the high range. I am not finding these issues with other libraries. I also mentioned the lack of manuals


----------



## Manaberry (Jan 3, 2021)

David Kudell said:


> I would say BWW is one of the top WW libs used by composers. Seems to be working quite well for all of them.



I feel like you are punching a testimonial line every time you are talking about a library.

Nice thread title btw, popcorn material.


----------



## ProfoundSilence (Jan 3, 2021)

Manaberry said:


> I feel like you are punching a testimonial line every time you are talking about a library.


hes learned my secret to surviving the streets of vic - try to only speak when you're saying nice things about a library


----------



## jononotbono (Jan 3, 2021)

ZeroZero said:


> Turning it up is what I do but in comparison to other libraries many patches are way out, way way out. I also said that their patches have more floor rumble, and some have some kind of seedy high range tinkles mixed in with the high range. I am not finding these issues with other libraries. I also mentioned the lack of manuals


Fair enough man.

There’s a lot of noise floor on Cineperc. So much so I have to use RX to clean some of it up when a low cut eq isn’t working. Just an example of unwanted build up on samples. Actually, the Piano in Blue has a massive amount of noise as well.

As for the manual thing, I didn’t even realise there isn’t a manual. But surely just playing with it and you don’t need one? I’ve not personally come across anything in the library I couldn’t work out how to use. But yeah, sure, manuals are always welcome.


----------



## purple (Jan 3, 2021)

ZeroZero said:


> What's even more aggravating is waiting days for a response whilst the composition is on hold. Creative juices are sucked away by constant set up issues- as we all know well. (Aside: that's why I am working so hard on getting my template right, its taking weeks - this will vastly improve with MIDI 2)


You're holding off on a composition because the woodwinds are too quiet???


----------



## ProfoundSilence (Jan 3, 2021)

purple said:


> You're holding off on a composition because the woodwinds are too quiet???


Imagine, when I started composition I didn't have even notation software.

just pen and paper. I could *try* to play it on guitar I guess.

but hey, I have loads of libraries and I don't ever make any music so I get stopped over far less XD


----------



## CT (Jan 3, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> just pen and paper.


Haven't you ever put something off because you don't have the right paper?


----------



## mussnig (Jan 3, 2021)

Mike T said:


> Haven't you ever put something off because you don't have the right paper?


OT: I work as a mathematician. Not having the right type of paper to write down my thoughts (which in 99 % of the cases are going to be nonsense anyways) can be problematic at times - like it's blocking my thinking (but maybe it's just a poor excuse my brain keeps telling itself because it struggles with the math )


----------



## Simon Ravn (Jan 3, 2021)

I love Berlin Woodwinds. They are still my main to go woodwinds, and also the selected standard for some projects I collaborate on. I don't care how loud or not loud they are. Thankfully my DAW has magic ways to adjust the volume.

Those together with some Hollywood Woodwinds + some ensemble stuff from SF/Cinesamples goes a long way.


----------



## ZeroZero (Jan 3, 2021)

With respect to all. Lot's of people in this thread on one side and another. I have made my points about OT - you may disagree, that's fine with me. I made the post to highlight the shortfalls I experienced so that other's may think of these things if they consider purchasing (and yes there are more postive things). 
So, now I bow out of this thread, respecting both sides


----------



## youngpokie (Jan 3, 2021)

ZeroZero said:


> I find them way lower in volume that my other samples (of the same instruments playing the same volume).


Your Berlin WW is probably the only non-normalized library with proper instrument balance in your template and it sounds like you're actively trying to eliminate one of the best thing about it..

Woodwinds have the smallest dynamic range in an orchestra (with only a couple of exceptions). On top of that, they have naturally balanced volume _only_ in their respective middle registers. The volume is naturally unbalanced in low and high registers. And the dynamics are unbalanced too - the clarinet at _ff_ is actually louder than many other woodwinds at _ff_. 

To my ears Berlin Woodwinds capture all of that exceptionally well and with purity of tone that's unsurpassed. The "shortfalls" you describe are the normalized libraries in your template...


----------



## Beans (Jan 3, 2021)

This is an over-simplification of at least three years of comments (since Revive came out) and doesn't apply to everyone unhappy with the "volume" issue for BWW, but sometimes it feels a bit like

What you wanted = Berlin Woodwinds Soloists
What you got = Berlin Woodwinds


----------



## jbuhler (Jan 3, 2021)

Michael Antrum said:


> Capsule is quite powerful, even if it is resource hungry, but a manual should not be optional at this price point.


OT does have an online manual for Capsule, and they seem to have repopulated the content since the last time I looked: https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/category/121-general-tpics

And they’ve buried the link to support (and all the documents) at the bottom of the page where it’s easy to overlook.

But the documentation to Capsule has always been a bit obscure where you had to make guesses about how some of it worked, and that approach has been carried over to the documentation of Sine, so that while we know that some long patches, say, can accommodate two (or more) legato types, the Sine documentation tells us nothing about how Sine decides which to employ, what the triggering events are for selecting one over the other, or if those triggers can be altered. (I presume not and if you want that control you‘d have to kludge something together with the poly switch mode, if that would even work.) Similarly there is only the vaguest description about what “cut off filter” does and what its “range” refers to.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts (Jan 3, 2021)

ned3000 said:


> What do SUSIR, SUSIW, and SUSIP mean?


SUS = sustain
R = romantic vibrato
W = without vibrato
P = progressive vibrato

I'm not sure about the "I" (I only own BWW Legacy), but sometimes with OT it refers to "immediate attack" (versus "soft" or "accented").

I agree that OT should be making pdf manuals, or something along those lines.

That said, I'd also point out that the helpdesk (which is mostly a pre-SINE resource) is hugely helpful. I really wish every orchestral sample library had documentation like this 👇.


----------



## ZeroZero (Jan 3, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> Your Berlin WW is probably the only non-normalized library with proper instrument balance in your template and it sounds like you're actively trying to eliminate one of the best thing about it..
> 
> Woodwinds have the smallest dynamic range in an orchestra (with only a couple of exceptions). On top of that, they have naturally balanced volume _only_ in their respective middle registers. The volume is naturally unbalanced in low and high registers. And the dynamics are unbalanced too - the clarinet at _ff_ is actually louder than many other woodwinds at _ff_.
> 
> To my ears Berlin Woodwinds capture all of that exceptionally well and with purity of tone that's unsurpassed. The "shortfalls" you describe are the normalized libraries in your template...


I concede these points, but they do not compare to other samples, what does one do - only use their samples? Get all other libraries attuned to their levels? There is no standard to work with. Of course I am aware that instruments naturally have different volumes, I have played in orchestras. I still think some of the woods are way too quiet. They are almost inaudible at mf - vel 60, mod 100. There are two aspects to this. The first step is what I define as 'gain staging' the template - making identical instruments on one's possession play back at the same volume when swapped on the same part, then secondly 'balancing'- getting the instruments to achieve what I call "parity" where the instrument's natural volume sits well in relation to its section, the ultimately also balancing the sections against each other. 
Another file in the ointment is the fact that different instruments, having different ways of producing sound, have different characteristic in different ranges, a triangle part written for fff would be silly. PPP at high range on a trumpet is very difficult to pull off, and so forth. Pizzicato is naturally lower in volume than arco. 
It would be too academic to try to achieve a perfect template in all these matters, the human ear itself can be very different depending on the individual - what is perceived as "loud" for me, has two criteria - one for the lower bass frquencies a 'booming' kind of discomfort, and for the upper frequencies it is the shrill piercing qualities and the harshness of the partials, that brings disatisfaction of the "turn that down" variety.


Z


----------



## Kent (Jan 3, 2021)

Mike T said:


> Haven't you ever put something off because you don't have the right paper?


Yes


----------



## muk (Jan 3, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> Your Berlin WW is probably the only non-normalized library with proper instrument balance



Non-normalized samples don't necessarily result in proper instrument balance, unfortunately. And certainly not with Orchestral Tools. I don't have Berlin Woodwinds. But their Berlin Strings First Chairs library is pretty off regarding natural instrument balance. Here is a little example:






Berlin Strings First Chairs vs CSSS?


From the email that I just received, it appears that Berlin First Chairs is getting what is described as "better legato performance", some sample fixes and a first chair double bass, in version 2.0. Furthermore, it is on sale for a couple of weeks for €199. I'm wondering how this compares to...




vi-control.net





The pizzicati between violin 1 and violin 2 are several db apart when played at the same velocities out of the box. Berlin Strings First Chairs 2.0 are also not normalized, and I would say it is one of the libraries with the worst volume balance I own. Not natural at all, but pretty erratic.

The same is true for Berlin Brass:






How to fix Berlin Brass


Here is a short little piece for horns, using the sustain articulation in Berlin Brass. Please try and concentrate on all four horns. Not a very good performance, right? The bottom horn is way too loud, and the others aren't really balanced either. It doesn't feel like four musicians...




vi-control.net





So, despite Orchestral Tools not normalizing the samples, the volume balance in their libraries out of the box is often not good.


----------



## youngpokie (Jan 3, 2021)

ZeroZero said:


> They are almost inaudible at mf - vel 60, mod 100.


Have you tweaked the volume range slider, the niente option and the soft low layer settings under the wrench view? The volume range slider in particular compresses the range and as you move it to the right you have an immediate impact on how low volumes are perceived (they sound even lower).



ZeroZero said:


> Another file in the ointment is the fact that different instruments, having different ways of producing sound, have different characteristic in different ranges, a triangle part written for fff would be silly. PPP at high range on a trumpet is very difficult to pull off, and so forth. Pizzicato is naturally lower in volume than arco.
> It would be too academic to try to achieve a perfect template in all these matters..


Actually no, it's not academic at all. 

You cannot orchestrate a simple chord properly unless you understand how to combine instruments in a way that their natural un-balanced volumes become balanced - and to do it through choice of instruments based on the given dynamic marking and instrument register only, without EQ and without a Mix Console. 

I would say that to balance the Woodwinds properly in the template, you have to find the respective middle registers (all different between instruments). In a very general sense, the notes in the middle register will have the most balanced volume relationship both in _piano_ and in _forte_. But once you're out of this register, you would actually want the volume difference.


----------



## Pedro Camacho (Jan 3, 2021)

OT Woodwinds are incredible... In fact almost everything they do is fabulous.


----------



## youngpokie (Jan 3, 2021)

muk said:


> The pizzicati between violin 1 and violin 2 are several db apart when played at the same velocities out of the box. Berlin Strings First Chairs 2.0 are also not normalized, and I would say it is one of the libraries with the worst volume balance I own. Not natural at all, but pretty erratic.
> 
> The same is true for Berlin Brass:


@muk I haven't started yet with Berlin Strings, but I believe there's different amount of players in Violin I and Violin II, so perhaps a couple of db is in fact a natural result of that...

As for Berlin Brass, the only thing I know is that OT describe volume differences in horns like this:











Berlin Brass - Notes - Orchestral Tools Helpdesk


Berlin Brass unites a host of Berlin's finest brass players in the Teldex Scoring Stage to deliver flexible solo brass and ensembles in one comprehensive packag




orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com





In other words, the thread you linked to is describing precisely what was done intentionally. Whether or not it was a good idea, that's a different question.


----------



## Kent (Jan 3, 2021)

Wait, where are we getting that OT does not normalize samples? Have I been missing something all these years?


----------



## muk (Jan 3, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> @muk I haven't started yet with Berlin Strings, but I believe there's different amount of players in Violin I and Violin II


The example I posted is from Berlin Strings *First Chairs*. So it's just one solo violin playing in both cases.


----------



## Casiquire (Jan 3, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> @muk I haven't started yet with Berlin Strings, but I believe there's different amount of players in Violin I and Violin II, so perhaps a couple of db is in fact a natural result of that...
> 
> As for Berlin Brass, the only thing I know is that OT describe volume differences in horns like this:
> 
> ...


Also Vln II face the opposite direction so their sound source kind of points away from the listener.



kmaster said:


> Wait, where are we getting that OT does not normalize samples? Have I been missing something all these years?


I believe OT themselves have said that


----------



## youngpokie (Jan 3, 2021)

muk said:


> The example I posted is from Berlin Strings *First Chairs*. So it's just one solo violin playing in both cases.


OK, sorry - I missed that bit and don't have that library...


----------



## youngpokie (Jan 3, 2021)

kmaster said:


> Wait, where are we getting that OT does not normalize samples? Have I been missing something all these years?













Blending With Other Libraries - Orchestral Tools Helpdesk


We have spent considerable energy on making our collections fit into your existing workflow and make it work together effortlessly with other libraries you are




orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com


----------



## muk (Jan 3, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Also Vln II face the opposite direction so their sound source kind of points away from the listener.


That's not true. In Berlin Strings the seating is violins 1, violins 2, violas, celli, with the basses behind the celli. So the Celli are opposite of the violins 1. Violins 2 are facing approximately the same position.

But also, it doesn't matter. The example is from *First Chairs. *Two different solo violins sitting next to each other should not have such a drastic volume difference when playing the same articulation at the same velocity. It's simply not a proper balance.

Edit: Maybe the instructions for the two players regarding volume were not clear enough. If both were instructed to play pizzicato at mezzoforte, for example, the second player might have played louder than the first one. If you don't normalize the samples afterwards, this would lead to the result I posted. I wouldn't be surprised if that is exactly what happened with Berlin Strings First Chairs. The library makes the impression on me that instructions for the players have been vague. It's also noticeable by the very different approaches to staccato lenghts etc. between the players.


----------



## David Kudell (Jan 3, 2021)

Manaberry said:


> I feel like you are punching a testimonial line every time you are talking about a library.
> 
> Nice thread title btw, popcorn material.


I find it best to stay positive and keep things in perspective. 24 years ago I was writing an entire student film score on a Roland XP-50's built-in sequencer. The tools we have now are amazing by comparison.

I had this little thing happen last year and as a result there are a few poor souls who actually read what I say about stuff. Making sample libraries is incredibly hard and the last thing I'm interested in is tearing down a company's hard work. I don't say good things about something that's not good. But my philosophy is the old adage, "If you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all."


----------



## Casiquire (Jan 3, 2021)

muk said:


> That's not true. In Berlin Strings the seating is violins 1, violins 2, violas, celli, with the basses behind the celli. So the Celli are opposite of the violins 1. Violins 2 are facing approximately the same position.
> 
> But also, it doesn't matter. The example is from *First Chairs. *Two different solo violins sitting next to each other should not have such a drastic volume difference when playing the same articulation at the same velocity. It's simply not a proper balance.


Oh whoops ignore me 😆 i have strings flipped in my template through wizardry, you're right that they come in standard seating out of the box


----------



## youngpokie (Jan 3, 2021)

Novatlan Sound said:


> The current Helpdesk content is 100% the same that was in the PDFs of yore. Very, very few people ever downloaded the PDFs, most of users just used the web version, which was always the way it is today (just in a different system, but there were never collection-specific user guides on the web version).
> I'll be happy to try to include anything that's useful!


If anyone wants the old pdf manuals for Orchestral Tools libraries, they are still available at the OT's old website. I found it looking for manuals (lol) on Google:



ORCHESTRAL TOOLS



You need to look for pdfs on the right hand side at individual product pages. For example, here's the old pdf manual for Berlin Strings

Berlin Strings Main PDF

And here's Berlin Woodwinds Revive:

Berlin Woodwinds Main PDF


----------



## Michael Antrum (Jan 3, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> If anyone wants the old pdf manuals for Orchestral Tools libraries, they are still available at the OT's old website. I found it looking for manuals (lol) on Google:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Berlin Strings PDF is a sales brochure, not a manual.

The woodwinds link doesn't seem to work.

But thanks for trying.


----------



## youngpokie (Jan 3, 2021)

Michael Antrum said:


> The Berlin Strings PDF is a sales brochure, not a manual.
> 
> The woodwinds link oddest seem to work.
> 
> But thanks for trying.


Can you not open these?


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 3, 2021)

David Kudell said:


> The tools we have now are amazing by comparison.



Exactly. The tools we have now were merely “Star Trek” fantasies when we were sequencing stuff 25 years ago. To complain about trivial items like volume is a very petty concern IMO.


----------



## Michael Antrum (Jan 3, 2021)

I can open them now thanks, but one is a sales document and the other is an articulation document.

What's even better, however, is I have found a Capsule Guide for Berlin Woodwinds. So I have to apologise to OT - there is indeed a manual. 

It is hidden in an obscurely named folder inside the library itself. I mean, who would expect to find the manual in a folder called 'documentation' eh ? D'oh !


----------



## SupremeFist (Jan 3, 2021)

Mike T said:


> Haven't you ever put something off because you don't have the right paper?


For me it's having the right pencil.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 3, 2021)

Michael Antrum said:


> I can open them now thanks, but one is a sales document and the other is an articulation document.
> 
> What's even better, however, is I have found a Capsule Guide for Berlin Woodwinds. So I have to apologise to OT - there is indeed a manual.
> 
> It is hidden in an obscurely named folder inside the library itself. I mean, who would expect to find the manual in a folder called 'documentation' eh ? D'oh !


I posted the links to those manuals at the beginning of this thread. I found them with a simple Google search.


----------



## Michael Antrum (Jan 3, 2021)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> I posted the links to those manuals at the beginning of this thread. I found them with a simple Google search.


Well there were no links at the bottom of the page you posted.

Anyway, I've got them now, so thank you for trying to help out.


----------



## Greg (Jan 3, 2021)

Every library needs stupendous amounts of eq to make it sound usable in my experience so that aspect didn't bother me. But their engine is laughably glitchy. Im afraid to touch anything on the interface and just do what I can with fx and modulation. Hope they figure it out soon like Spitfire has.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 3, 2021)

Michael Antrum said:


> Well there were no links at the bottom of the page you posted.
> 
> Anyway, I've got them now, so thank you for trying to help out.


It is kind of odd that there’s a lack of manuals readily available. Especially for those who have their DAW’s offline.


----------



## ZeroZero (Jan 3, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> Have you tweaked the volume range slider, the niente option and the soft low layer settings under the wrench view? The volume range slider in particular compresses the range and as you move it to the right you have an immediate impact on how low volumes are perceived (they sound even lower).
> 
> 
> Actually no, it's not academic at all.
> ...


Actually I agree with almost everything you say, but it would be a very long task if one had say four orchestral libraries with up to 20 articulations per instrument. Because it not true that every articulation of every instrument, on every volume level ppp to fff is equal, what goals would you have? It could drive a person mad, especially as its too much to achieve in one sitting. That is why I used the word "academic" which may have been a poor choice of terms. One also has to think about the high registers, and make sure they do not peak. It's a tricky task
Some people in this thread say I am overthinking. Yes I am, but I like to truly understand the details of the issues before I proceed. I learn a lot from what people say in these threads. 
Obviously, not all work can be done before time in a Template. However it's also true that a poorly constructed template can make things harder and make things sound worse. Templates can only approximate and guess future contexts. 

Z


----------



## jcrosby (Jan 4, 2021)

ZeroZero said:


> Actually I agree with almost everything you say, but it would be a very long task if one had say four orchestral libraries with up to 20 articulations per instrument. Because it not true that every articulation of every instrument, on every volume level ppp to fff is equal, what goals would you have? It could drive a person mad, especially as its too much to achieve in one sitting. That is why I used the word "academic" which may have been a poor choice of terms. One also has to think about the high registers, and make sure they do not peak. It's a tricky task
> Some people in this thread say I am overthinking. Yes I am, but I like to truly understand the details of the issues before I proceed. I learn a lot from what people say in these threads.
> Obviously, not all work can be done before time in a Template. However it's also true that a poorly constructed template can make things harder and make things sound worse. Templates can only approximate and guess future contexts.
> 
> Z


From someone who has been through many template iterations, and has many templates for many different genres, templates are a progression and your 1st ones will inevitably be anything but ideal, if not flawed... What happens when you get a new library? Are you going to wait to buy your next one before starting to building it? Well what about the library after that?

You just need to start somewhere. Only experience will tell you when you need to rebalance things, and that experience won't come from overanalyzing things while holding back from getting started in the 1st place.... And over time you'll probably find yourself retiring a few libraries from the template.. It's an ever evolving work in progress.

You just need to roll up your sleeves, get your hands dirty, and crack a few eggs making your omelette.

And honestly taking your frustrations out on one of the most solid developers this industry has isn't a great look. Honestly it seems like your projecting a lot of frustrating at the developer when you need to be turning that frustration into hard labor.


----------



## ZeroZero (Jan 4, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> From someone who has been through many template iterations, and has many templates for many different genres, templates are a progression and your 1st ones will inevitably be anything but ideal, if not flawed... What happens when you get a new library? Are you going to wait to buy your next one before starting to building it? Well what about the library after that?
> 
> You just need to start somewhere. Only experience will tell you when you need to rebalance things, and that experience won't come from overanalyzing things while holding back from getting started in the 1st place.... And over time you'll probably find yourself retiring a few libraries from the template.. It's an ever evolving work in progress.
> 
> ...


I have written many templates, but mostly five years ago, yes I am still learning. What you call "Taking out my frustrations" is pointing out the flaws. I think its totally legitimate to criticize a developer. Many agreed with my criticisms. If its all praise it gives a false impression. What you call "over analyzing" is my learning style, I am not "holding back", though sometimes this is wise, my template is well underway.
This forum has helped me, some critise me for over questioning, but they don't have to reply. 

With that I am going to oot out of this thread now. I have said all I want to say and have learnt from the replies. Thank you to all.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 4, 2021)

ZeroZero said:


> "Taking out my frustrations" is pointing out the flaws. I think its totally legitimate to criticize a developer.



IMO, your criticism did not point out a flaw. You merely pointed out something about the library that didn't suit your specific workflow. Anyways...


----------



## ProfoundSilence (Jan 4, 2021)

ZeroZero said:


> What you call "Taking out my frustrations" is pointing out the flaws



Hmm, it's not just him though - basically everyone disagrees that the default volume is an issue because balancing is something you should be doing anyways. 

Infact if you listen to most product demos, the volume differences between demos can be very obvious, even better, your favorite orchestral sound tracks - instruments will have different volumes on different pieces.


----------



## peterdebeer (May 31, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Let's wait for the OT Berlin Woodwinds (SINE) version. Hopefully they have improved the volume of the woodwinds. I agree, they are too low.


Agree. Hopeless volume, far too low. It's not 'well balanced' if you cant even hear the instrument without ramping everything up max db. I've swapped out BWW Revive in favor of Cinematic Studios Woodwinds for now, plus a few of the BWW legacy instruments. Shouldn't need to crank up the Kontakt Master Volume, ever.


----------

