# Post your Sine VS Kontakt Berlin Love/Hate/Comparisons here



## SimonCharlesHanna (Nov 18, 2021)

Losing track in the commercial thread and trying to figure out if I should even bother downloading everything into sine. Would love to see/hear user experiences positive or negative

Also gotta say, the legato for the series has been okay at best so it's a real concern to see a degrade in quality based on the examples so far.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Nov 18, 2021)

Here is one of many examples. I have no idea what happened. Kontakt, then SINE. Exact same settings and only one dynamic layer activated.

EDIT : A word from Tobias about this issue : "_Indeed the example on the 1st page is because all dnymic layers but one are disabled. This is a known issue in SINE's legato handling and of course not intended to be that way. For now we strongly suggest to have all layers enabled._"


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Nov 18, 2021)

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> Here is one of many examples. I have no idea what happened. Kontakt, then SINE. Exact same settings and only one dynamic layer activated.


yikes


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## Wunderhorn (Nov 18, 2021)

For me Sine does not have one single advantage over Kontakt. E.g. no wrench...

Only more quirks of to keep up with which is wasting my time.


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## dhmusic (Nov 18, 2021)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Also gotta say, the legato for the series has been okay at best


I smell blood in the water, brah...


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Nov 18, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> I smell blood in the water, brah...


consider that in the context that I hate most things


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## dhmusic (Nov 18, 2021)

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> Here is one of many examples. I have no idea what happened. Kontakt, then SINE. Exact same settings and only one dynamic layer activated.


So just to clarify - this is likely because you only activated one velocity layer. The legatos work differently in SINE, it's just one of those things. The only single velocity layer that works with legato will be the lowest layer - at least for now


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## dhmusic (Nov 18, 2021)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> consider that in the context that I hate most things


That's my mom you're talking about - _Berlin Brass is my mom_


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## Confuzzly (Nov 18, 2021)

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> Here is one of many examples. I have no idea what happened. Kontakt, then SINE. Exact same settings and only one dynamic layer activated.


I don't own the library, but out of curiosity, what does your velocity look like? Watching the SINE brass walkthrough, it looks like they made the SINE version default to triggering retongued legato via velocity (I'm assuming higher?) which I don't believe was the case in the Kontakt version.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Nov 18, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> So just to clarify - this is likely because you only activated one velocity layer. The legatos work differently in SINE, it's just one of those things. The only single velocity layer that works with legato will be the lowest layer - at least for now


Not sure, man. I actually choosed to activate only one dynamic layer to be dead sure that the differences I would be hearing wouldn't be the cause of some dynamic remapping. No matter what dynamic layer is selected, or all selected, Kontakt version is always much, much smoother. It's just the sad truth.

I've been using Berlin Brass almost daily since its release in 2017 and know that library at my fingertips, and believe me I wish I did something wrong!


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Nov 18, 2021)

Confuzzly said:


> I don't own the library, but out of curiosity, what does your velocity look like? Watching the SINE brass walkthrough, it looks like they made the SINE version default to triggering retongued legato via velocity (I'm assuming higher?) which I don't believe was the case in the Kontakt version.


Yes, I made sure the exact same samples were triggered on both sides (the type of sustain, and the type of legato transition).


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## dhmusic (Nov 18, 2021)

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> I've been using Berlin Brass almost daily since its release in 2017 and know that library at my fingertips, and believe me I wish I did something wrong!


Same - not saying you did anything wrong. I just know through all the permutations I've explored with all the SINE features this was a really common issue across every library. It could just be a sour patch in this case too, for sure. Generally, they all have to be turned on or it wigs out


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## dhmusic (Nov 18, 2021)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> consider that in the context that I hate most things


I'm jk man lol


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## muziksculp (Nov 18, 2021)

I sense a lot of dislike for the SINE version of Berlin Orchestra, is going to popup on this thread.


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## dhmusic (Nov 18, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I sense a lot of dislike for the SINE version of Berlin Orchestra, is going to popup on this thread.


the Berklee one? I've been going through those instruments and it all seems pretty smooth


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## Casiquire (Nov 18, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> the Berklee one? I've been going through those instruments and it all seems pretty smooth


I assume he means the main series, which is getting torn apart right now


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## muziksculp (Nov 18, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> the Berklee one? I've been going through those instruments and it all seems pretty smooth


No, sorry. I meant the Main Berlin Series Libraries (Berlin Strings, Woodwinds, Brass, Perc.)


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## muziksculp (Nov 18, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> the Berklee one? I've been going through those instruments and it all seems pretty smooth


Nice to hear that. 

I wonder how they compare to the Main Libraries, and if OT has a special deal on the Berklee version. Especially if one owns all of the Main Berlin Libraries.


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## dhmusic (Nov 18, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I assume he means the main series, which is getting torn apart right now


It's kinda fun in that thread. For me it kinda feels like a mosh pit or something. Most of the people in that thread are literally just panicking and don't have a clue what they're talking about because they're in such a ridiculous, comical state of chaos. I hope the party keeps going for a while.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Nov 18, 2021)

SINE hasn't been the most friendly to me (Logic user) since its inception, and while the newer versions have been more stable, there are still some niggles that I'd like to see ironed out before I use it more extensively. I also like the Kontakt versions just fine (they have that classy Kontakt banner that I really love), and based on these examples so far, it sounds like sticking with the Kontakt versions might be a good idea. Fingers crossed!


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## Evans (Nov 18, 2021)

I'm good to stick with the Kontakt versions for what I already had (BS, BB, BWW), and the SINE version of Berlin Percussion seems fine so far. Not spectacular, but I'm happy to have more "matching stuff" in Teldex (I'll still probably voucher my way into Synchron Percussion someday).

Also, that "Timpani Impact - Single hits muted" patch is really fun.


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## muziksculp (Nov 18, 2021)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> SINE hasn't been the most friendly to me (Logic user) since its inception, and while the newer versions have been more stable, there are still some niggles that I'd like to see ironed out before I use it more extensively. I also like the Kontakt versions just fine (they have that classy Kontakt banner that I really love), and based on these examples so far, it sounds like sticking with the Kontakt versions might be a good idea. Fingers crossed!


Hi Chris,

I would advise you to let OT know what are the details that still bother you about SINE, or libraries running in SINE. 

I think they will appreciate the feedback, and do their best to improve things. SINE is their main Player, Kontakt is not, it's the past, SINE is the future as far as OT are concerned. We need to move forward with them. 

Thanks for your feedback.


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## FrozenIcicle (Nov 18, 2021)

Reminder kontakt is shit with m1 Macs where as sine is supported


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## easyrider (Nov 18, 2021)

From reading the posts in threads it seems to be that the Sine Release of the Berlin series has been rushed to release to hit the Black Friday month?

Its a fair chunk of change for the bundle and did OT really want to miss out on a calander once a year revenue stream?

I don’t think so….competing with Spitfire and VSL etc….all fighting for are hard earned $

The VSL BF 55% warning thread here is testament to that….


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## muziksculp (Nov 18, 2021)

easyrider said:


> From reading the posts in threads it seems to be that the Sine Release of the Berlin series has been rushed….?


LOL.. How could they have been rushed ? I have been waiting for over a year now waiting for them.  Oh.. wait, they announced SINE iirc around Nov. 2019 ? So that is rushed ? we are in Nov. 2021.


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## easyrider (Nov 18, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> LOL.. How could they have been rushed ? I have been waiting for over a year now waiting for them.  Oh.. wait, they announced SINE iirc around Nov. 2019 ? So that is rushed ? we are in Nov. 2021.


No I mean it’s not quite ready…..OT posted here on the 8th Nov saying there was delays….then 11 days later we got a plethora of posts of people complaining of sloppy volumes and inconsistent legatos….


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## Casiquire (Nov 18, 2021)

I kinda think the real issue here is that we got the Pixelpoet trick going on the Berlin series last week, so we're extra critical right now. But I'd bet the vast majority of the people shocked by the legato in SINE would never have even done the trick in kontakt in the first place


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## muziksculp (Nov 18, 2021)

easyrider said:


> No I mean it’s not quite ready…..OT posted here on the 8th Nov saying there was delays….then 11 days later we got a plethora of posts of people complaining of sloppy volumes and inconsistent legatos….


I doubt OT will be that adventurous, and release their Main Berlin Orchestral Libraries, with all sorts of issues. If their QA process is badly flawed, then they are in trouble, and they need to take swift action to fix these issues. But I doubt that's the case. 

Plus, I haven't installed any of the Main Berlin Orchestral Libraries in SINE yet, so I can't tell if there are issues until I test them.


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## muziksculp (Nov 18, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I kinda think the real issue here is that we got the Pixelpoet trick going on the Berlin series last week, so we're extra critical right now. But I'd bet the vast majority of the people shocked by the legato in SINE would never have even done the trick in kontakt in the first place


I wonder if OT can achieve the same results the Pixelpoet Trick can as far as the Legatos are concerned, maybe we can convince them to do just that to all the legatos via an update. Why Not ? 

Unless there is a technical reason the SINE version can't do this. Although I doubt it, actually the SINE version has a very advanced Adaptive Legato system.


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## easyrider (Nov 18, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I doubt OT will be that adventurous, and release their Main Berlin Orchestral Libraries, with all sorts of issues. If their QA process is badly flawed, then they are in trouble, and they need to take swift action to fix these issues. But I doubt that's the case.
> 
> Plus, I haven't installed any of the Main Berlin Orchestral Libraries in SINE yet, so I can't tell if there are issues until I test them.


I’m not saying OT lacks Quality….but it’s not unfeasible for them to release a bundle with issues and fix them down the line….

Over the next few days we will probably see more examples of what people have already posted With regards to volume inconsistencies etc..


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## muziksculp (Nov 18, 2021)

easyrider said:


> I’m not saying OT lacks Quality….but it’s not unfeasible for them to release a bundle with issues and fix them down the line….


Hopefully Not, Don't remind me of Berlin Symphonic Strings, they still haven't fixed some issues with sample noises in that library, and it took them forever to fix the Mic-Merging feature for BSS.


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## Casiquire (Nov 18, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I wonder if OT can achieve the same results the Pixelpoet Trick can as far as the Legatos are concerned, maybe we can convince them to do just that to all the legatos via an update. Why Not ?
> 
> Unless there is a technical reason the SINE version can't do this. Although I doubt it, actually the SINE version has a very advanced Adaptive Legato system.


There's no reason SINE can't do it. My bigger concern is that the samples are snipped in such a way that it's impossible as part of the process of porting it


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## jbuhler (Nov 18, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hopefully Not, Don't remind me of Berlin Symphonic Strings, they still haven't fixed some issues with sample noises in that library, and it took them forever to fix the Mic-Merging feature for BSS.


There are still misfiring legatos in BSS as well. Indeed little that was reported immediately after release and reported on the BSS thread has been fixed. I think you have to buy OT libraries under the assumption that they will remain as is for a long time into the future. Fortunately, the issues with BSS have been only irritations.


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## Casiquire (Nov 18, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> There are still misfiring legatos in BSS as well. Indeed little that was reported immediately after release and reported on the BSS thread has been fixed. I think you have to buy OT libraries under the assumption that they will remain as is for a long time into the future. Fortunately, the issues with BSS have been only irritations.


Agreed. I think the good outweighs the bad, but you have to be pretty comfortable with the bad. Fixes are slow coming


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## Akarin (Nov 18, 2021)

Let's say that download speed is definitely not a plus with Sine...






...on a 10 Gbit line.


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## dhmusic (Nov 18, 2021)

easyrider said:


> I’m not saying OT lacks Quality….but it’s not unfeasible for them to release a bundle with issues and fix them down the line….


I think you're spot on here


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## Akarin (Nov 18, 2021)

Akarin said:


> Let's say that download speed is definitely not a plus with Sine...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh, and my personal favorite during a 80-hour download for just one patch:


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## Casiquire (Nov 18, 2021)

Akarin said:


> Oh, and my personal favorite during a 80-hour download for just one patch:


I'm sorry to see that! My patches only took minutes 😔


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## Evans (Nov 18, 2021)

An extreme slowdown happened to me during the Brass download. A quit and restart kicked it into high gear.


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## jbuhler (Nov 18, 2021)

Also Sine 1.0.7 reset my midi audio interface and BSS First Violins now weigh in at 2.7GB on the default setting of 250ms. I'm pretty sure it wasn't that high in the earlier versions of Sine, though whether that's because I had DFD preload buffer set lower, I don't know. Oh, I see, it's now loading with the spot and tree both enabled. Maybe I set it that way. I don't know. Irritated that Sine 1.0.7 couldn't remember my audio interface though. 

Just downloaded Berlin Strings. So far nothing stands out too bad. The legato transitions are not horrible, but need to be turned down as usual. (For some reason all Sine libraries seem to have the legato set too high.) They still trigger portamento irritatingly with high velocity rather than low like most other libraries, making transferring midi a pain. Still seem to be no way to control the break points on the adaptive legato. Here it's in a 2X2 matrix, slow and fast speeds trigger different transitions, and high and low velocities trigger different velocities. You can make these assignments however you like, but you can't change the break points as far as I know. There are four legato types, but functionally you can really only set up three in any one patch, since only the runs legato responds well in the fast legato position. In general, as with BSS, the legato transitions, at least the slow legatos (fingered, slurred, portamento), work better reduced slightly in volume. As is usual in Sine, you can assign legato transitions to all the longs.

NB: Vibrato has moved to CC3 from CC4, so you'll need to fix any past projects and keyswitches if you haven't already. (I think that change took place with Sine 1.0.6).

In the Sine implementation you really see how many articulations are available. And it's quite a lot more than what is shown out of the box in the sense that you can add legato to all the longs, but legato is implemented only for the main sustain out of the box. It's a simple procedure to duplicate an articulation and add legato to it, though you can change how it appears in Sine so you have to remember which of the articulations has the legato attached.


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## TintoL (Nov 18, 2021)

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> Here is one of many examples. I have no idea what happened. Kontakt, then SINE. Exact same settings and only one dynamic layer activated.


YIKES.....how can it change so much ... It' feels soo dated those transitions.


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## MaxOctane (Nov 18, 2021)

easyrider said:


> From reading the posts in threads it seems to be that the Sine Release of the Berlin series has been rushed to release to hit the Black Friday month?


From my POV, I've been hoping for months that BS would be 50% this week (after buying BWW at 50% last year) and since I don't know what the old legatos sounded like anyway (since I didn't own the Kontakt version), I'm ok just enjoying them ... and if the legatos are fixed down the line, then yay!


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## lettucehat (Nov 18, 2021)

What I don't get is that the legatos mostly sound great in the new walkthroughs I've seen (Brass only).


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## muziksculp (Nov 18, 2021)

Akarin said:


> Let's say that download speed is definitely not a plus with Sine...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi @Akarin,

Yeah.. that's going to require some waiting time to download. I decided to delay my Berlin Series SINE downloads for a few days, since I'm sure their Servers are trying to catch up with the high download traffic.

I would appreciate your opinion about Berlin Strings (SINE) once you have it downloaded, and spent some quality time checking it out.

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## Vik (Nov 18, 2021)

After the initial release of Modern Scoring Strings, there were lots if similar discussions – also with Pixelpoet references, but it didnt take long before Audiobro released updates which made the MSS legatos much better. They also added new parameters which added user control that changed the product a lot. I’d be very surprised if OT won’t do something similar.


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## muziksculp (Nov 18, 2021)

Vik said:


> After the initial release of Modern Scoring Strings, there were lots if similar discussions – also with Pixelpoet references, but it didnt take long before Audiobro released updates which made the MSS legatos much better. They also added new parameters which added user control that changed the product a lot. I’d be very surprised if OT won’t do something similar.


They might, especially if many users contact them directly. Not just posting on this forum. 

Although OT are not well known for taking swift action to fix/improve things. They are pretty slow given my experience so far.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Nov 18, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I kinda think the real issue here is that we got the Pixelpoet trick going on the Berlin series last week, so we're extra critical right now. But I'd bet the vast majority of the people shocked by the legato in SINE would never have even done the trick in kontakt in the first place


I haven't tried this trick yet on Berlin Brass, but the thing is I... Honestly never felt the need to! I love the way the legato transitions sound as they do in the Kontakt version. I understand SINE is a different platform but wasn't expecting the difference to be so strong.


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## muziksculp (Nov 18, 2021)

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> I understand SINE is a different platform but wasn't expecting the difference to be so strong.


Are you saying there is a huge difference between the Legatos of the Kontakt version compared to the ones in the new SINE version ? SINE version being inferior ?


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Nov 18, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Are you saying there is a huge difference between the Legatos of the Kontakt version compared to the ones in the new SINE version ? SINE version being inferior ?


Yes Sir, unfortunately.


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## Akarin (Nov 19, 2021)

Another gripe with Sine: I couldn't figure simply how to add a CC fader to a given mic. It's quite a big part of how I work with a template so not being able to figure it out is making me nervous. How do you do it?


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Nov 19, 2021)

Akarin said:


> Another gripe with Sine: I couldn't figure simply how to add a CC fader to a given mic. It's quite a big part of how I work with a template so not being able to figure it out is making me nervous. How do you do it?


You can't, Nico! That's really too bad, I like to have all my mic faders as Quick Controls (or at least on MIDI faders when Host Automation isn't available)


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## Akarin (Nov 19, 2021)

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> You can't, Nico! That's really too bad, I like to have all my mic faders as Quick Controls (or at least on MIDI faders when Host Automation isn't available)



WTF?!? Really? I'm speechless on this one 😳


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## holywilly (Nov 19, 2021)

Akarin said:


> Another gripe with Sine: I couldn't figure simply how to add a CC fader to a given mic. It's quite a big part of how I work with a template so not being able to figure it out is making me nervous. How do you do it?


I mic merge them.


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## Zanshin (Nov 19, 2021)

lettucehat said:


> What I don't get is that the legatos mostly sound great in the new walkthroughs I've seen (Brass only).


Yes, this. I do hear some occasional legato weirdness in the walk-thru but overall the library sounds great. I also don't think it's matter of, for example, a 8Dio demo where you have a fantastic musician playing only the strengths haha. In one part of the trombone section walk thru - at the highest dynamic layer it sounds like a burst of static (I thought my monitor blew up haha).

The legato switching based on velocity and speed (and those thresholds being set it stone) has to be a big player in the issues we are hearing in user demos.


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## chrisav (Nov 19, 2021)

FrozenIcicle said:


> Reminder kontakt is shit with m1 Macs where as sine is supported


Wait what? How is Kontakt shit on M1 Macs (I'm still on intel, but this has me worried)?


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## Casiquire (Nov 19, 2021)

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> I haven't tried this trick yet on Berlin Brass, but the thing is I... Honestly never felt the need to! I love the way the legato transitions sound as they do in the Kontakt version. I understand SINE is a different platform but wasn't expecting the difference to be so strong.


The brass definitely has the least to gain. While i was in the groove i went and did it on the brass too and it makes a bit of difference but like, what flowing legato line is your bass trombone playing?


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Nov 19, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> egato switching based on velocity and speed (and those thresholds being set it stone) has to be a big player in the issues we are hearing in user demos


Unfortunately it is not, all parameters were carefully matched. There is a big difference between a "musical" demo where you're trying to get the best possible result, and a cold, technical one where you're just listening to transitions, crossfading, round robins etc. 

Berlin Brass is a very deeply sampled library, so when something doesn't work as expected you have alternatives. Switching to a different legato for one particular transition, switching from a sustain type to another, mixing another articulation in... Even changing instruments! Sounds bad with Horn 1? Try with Horn 2!

What I mean is I'm not surprised they were able to showcase beautiful musical phrases in the walkthrough. 

The purpose of these cold, technical demos is to enlight the differences between the old version and the new one. And unfortunately the results speak for themselves.


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## Zanshin (Nov 19, 2021)

Stop making sense Emmanuel.


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## Evans (Nov 19, 2021)

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> The purpose of these cold, technical demos is to enlight the differences between the old version and the new one. And unfortunately the results speak for themselves.


Exactly this.

I run fairly mechanical, non-musical tests when I get a new library. I use to have a starter MIDI file for it, but... um... accidentally forgot it was there when I cleared the USB drive a while back. These are mostly basic intervals and repetitions, up and down the keyboard, at varying dynamics. It's not sketching, it's not a "first look," it's QA.

And I'm unfortunately running into enough Berlin SINE issues that I'm going to sit back and see what other people say about stand-out patches rather than continue finding them on my own. Is it a disaster? No. Might these be great at this discount price, especially for new owners? Probably. Is it worth my time to pick apart which to use in Kontakt vs SINE? No, too many issues at the moment for little gain.


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## Jerry Growl (Nov 19, 2021)

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> Here is one of many examples. I have no idea what happened. Kontakt, then SINE. Exact same settings and only one dynamic layer activated.





Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> Not sure, man. I actually choosed to activate only one dynamic layer to be dead sure that the differences I would be hearing wouldn't be the cause of some dynamic remapping. No matter what dynamic layer is selected, or all selected, Kontakt version is always much, much smoother. It's just the sad truth.
> 
> I've been using Berlin Brass almost daily since its release in 2017 and know that library at my fingertips, and believe me I wish I did something wrong!


It still has to do with the extra FF velocity layer OT added (on request) in Sine, they probably remapped the previous layers and had to rework things in lower dynamics to mount up to that FF dynamic. 

It was a good thing the first time, but hey, now you have Kontakt Berlin Brass as it was, AND if you need an extra velocity layer, take a pick from the Sine menu. Those (like me) who don't own the Kontakt version are the ones that ought to be on the barricades here.


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## jbuhler (Nov 19, 2021)

First, I hope everyone is reporting these issues to OT. They won’t get fixed just reporting them to the forum, even though OT monitors these threads to a degree. Second, as noted, these libraries have a lot of redundancy so there is usually another way to do something if you encounter a bug. This means the library remain usable even though it has issues. This is an important consideration given that OT is often slow to fix things.

So far in my working with Berlin Strings there are things I very much prefer in the Sine version. I neither like nor dislike the legatos in Kontakt (I haven’t yet experimented with the trick), and so far I feel the same about the Sine version. I do like how easy it is to add legato in Sine. You can do that with Kontakt too but it’s easier to manage in Sine and I’d recommend that everyone play around with both the legato types and the volume of the legato transitions. For whatever reason the volume of the legato transitions in Sine is not generally well calibrated for my tastes, and I end up changing them on nearly every library.


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## OT_Tobias (Nov 19, 2021)

Hi folks!

thanks for your feedback about the legatos!
Indeed the example on the 1st page is because all dnymic layers but one are disabled. This is a known issue in SINE's legato handling and of course not intended to be that way. For now we strongly suggest to have all layers enabled.

The legatos in the SINE versions indeed are tweaked; not only for the additional layer, but also incorporating other feedback. We're of course evaluating all feedback to see if took it too far at times.

By all means send us emails with specific issues! Everything is catalogued and I assure you we won't forget a single report!

best

Tobias


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## TintoL (Nov 19, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I’d recommend that everyone play around with both the legato types and the volume of the legato transitions. For whatever reason the volume of the legato transitions in Sine is not generally well calibrated for my tastes, and I end up changing them on nearly every library.


So, you are saying that in Sine you can adjust the volume of the transitions? 
Would it be possible for you to show an example showing those adjustments please?

Thanks a lot in advance.


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## arafaratanran (Nov 19, 2021)

OT_Tobias said:


> Hi folks!
> 
> thanks for your feedback about the legatos!
> Indeed the example on the 1st page is because all dnymic layers but one are disabled. This is a known issue in SINE's legato handling and of course not intended to be that way. For now we strongly suggest to have all layers enabled.
> ...


It is good to get an official feedback from OT about the legatos. However, I asked many times for an official statement regarding all missing CC implementation of Sine vs Capsule and I never got an answer to that. 

In this thread, it is also causing astonishment that even at this point it is still not possible to automate the mixer via CC. Some people might overlook that, for some it may not even be of importance. But from my experience, most professional composers I know still use templates for orchestral instuments (mostly in VEpro) and the midi automation of capsule is rather critical to them. It is even a crucial point why they chose OT libraries in the first place. 

That is why I cannot understand how this can be so low in your priority, that even more than two years after the release of Sine there is not even CC automation for the mixer available. 

Could we please get an estimate when this big hole will be filled or at least wether OT is even planing on bringing back the full functionality of Capsule? If that would indeed not be the plan, I would spare any further time spent on downloading and testing the new Sine versions, as this would definitively make me stick with the Kontakt versions and not even considering Sine - whatever other improvements I might be missing ...


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## muziksculp (Nov 19, 2021)

OT_Tobias said:


> The legatos in the SINE versions indeed are tweaked; not only for the additional layer, but also incorporating other feedback. We're of course evaluating all feedback to see if took it too far at times.


Hi @OT_Tobias ,

So, have the legatos in SINE version been tweaked to sound better than the Kontakt version, or worse ?

From the many posts about the SINE legatos, sounding worse in SINE than in Kontakt, I don't know what to conclude about this important detail.

Can you explain to us what your Legato tweaks for SINE were focused on ? and why are there so many negative comments about the SINE legatos, if your main objective of tweaking the legatos was to improve them further compared to the Kontakt version ?

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## Sarah Mancuso (Nov 19, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @OT_Tobias ,
> 
> So, have the legatos in SINE version been tweaked to sound better than the Kontakt version, or worse ?


I mean, I would be very surprised if the response here was "Hi muziksculp! That's right, we've been hard at work tweaking them to sound worse."


----------



## NoamL (Nov 19, 2021)

How are people feeling about the added ff/fff samples in Berlin Brass? and are they only available in SINE?


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## Jett Hitt (Nov 19, 2021)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> If one was to just buy BWW out of the Berlin series, is the Kontakt version then the better choice?
> 
> I’m in two minds about getting BWW at all though. Everything recorded by OT in Teldex sounds “very far into a big room” acoustically IMO. I think I actually like the sound of CSW much more.


It seems to me that if you prefer the sound of CSW, then that is what you should choose. In my experience, the room in the Cinematic Studio Series requires a lot of dressing. With OT, Teldex is part of what you are paying for. You either like that room or you don't. You can, of course, diminish the room with close mics, but if that is the approach, there would seem to be little reason to go with BWW IMHO. CSW is a very respectable library. Personally, I love the sound of Teldex. I also love the sound of Abbey Road. The ease of having instruments in the same space is a selling point for me. I don't want to have to dress the room because I am not very good at it.

I have seen few complaints about CSW, but the Berlin Series on Sine seems to have a ways to go, hence this thread. I have the Kontakt version, which has the advantage of including the Legacy patches. It has a fantastic reputation in the industry. Personally, I hate futzing with Capsule, and I find it to be a really quiet library. I was really looking forward to having these libraries in Sine, and time will tell how much I like it after the port. Buying the Kontakt version has the advantage of being able to switch to Sine, but it doesn't go the other way. So note well the problems people are having because OT isn't known for updating their libraries.


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## OT_Tobias (Nov 19, 2021)

arafaratanran said:


> It is good to get an official feedback from OT about the legatos. However, I asked many times for an official statement regarding all missing CC implementation of Sine vs Capsule and I never got an answer to that.
> 
> In this thread, it is also causing astonishment that even at this point it is still not possible to automate the mixer via CC. Some people might overlook that, for some it may not even be of importance. But from my experience, most professional composers I know still use templates for orchestral instuments (mostly in VEpro) and the midi automation of capsule is rather critical to them. It is even a crucial point why they chose OT libraries in the first place.
> 
> ...


Hi!

I do not know your real name/OT Account, so I can't look up your previous emails. But we have answered this question whenever it came in an email:
We are very much aware of the wish for better automation both MIDI and host, but I'm afraid I can't give a date. I really don't know and of course for legal reasons can't tell. 

Of course we know about all the areas where we can improve SINE and all these things are on our wishlist!

best

Tobias


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## muziksculp (Nov 19, 2021)

Sarah Mancuso said:


> I mean, I would be very surprised if the response here was "Hi muziksculp! That's right, we've been hard at work tweaking them to sound worse."


Yeah... but that's why I'm totally amazed at the negative comments about the SINE version Legatos, if their main goal was to improve them. Go Figure.


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## muziksculp (Nov 19, 2021)

@OT_Tobias ,

When can we expect to watch some in-depth walkthrough videos of Berlin Strings (SINE) version ?


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## OT_Tobias (Nov 19, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> @OT_Tobias ,
> 
> When can we expect to watch some in-depth walkthrough videos of Berlin Strings (SINE) version ?


There's a walkthrough on the product page. I'm afraid I do not know if a more expansive one is in the works. What are you missing in the one that's there? Again - email us feedback, we'll be happy to pass it on! On forums these things get lost.


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## muziksculp (Nov 19, 2021)

OT_Tobias said:


> There's a walkthrough on the product page. I'm afraid I do not know if a more expansive one is in the works. What are you missing in the one that's there? Again - email us feedback, we'll be happy to pass it on! On forums these things get lost.


Hi @OT_Tobias 

OH.. I didn't notice that. THANKS  It wasn't there yesterday. Will surely enjoy watching the video. 

I haven't yet installed my Main Berlin Libraries in SINE. But will do so over the weekend. 

I would really like you if possible, to comment on why there are some negative posts describing the SINE legatos inferior to the Kontakt versions of Berlin Main Libraries ? Do you feel they are not being used properly in SINE ? or ... ? 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## storyteller (Nov 19, 2021)

OT_Tobias said:


> We are very much aware of the wish for better automation both MIDI and host, but I'm afraid I can't give a date. I really don't know and of course for legal reasons can't tell.



I'm going to cross post this here since it hasn't been answered yet in the main Commercial Announcement thread and I don't want it to get lost:

@OrchestralTools @OT_Tobias I've been a happy user and big fan of BWW over the years having purchased all of the expansions except for Revive. This leaves me with a number of questions...

What is the situation with BWW Legacy moving forward?
Will it be ported to SINE?
Are Expansions A and D being ported to SINE or being re-recorded to match Revive?
Currently a new user can buy into BWW at $324... which is great, but as a longtime BWW + all expansions user who did not purchase Revive and was expecting Legacy to be ported (since it is included in Revive), I would be forced to pay $270 for the SINE version with mismatched expansions. This doesn't seem in good faith to existing users - especially since there has been no communication regarding these decisions.
Will users without Revive be provided some other upgrade pricing? I think we were all expecting to see Legacy in SINE or receive the upgrade for free like the other OT libraries.
What is the situation with CC assignments on mic faders and other controls in SINE?


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## muk (Nov 19, 2021)

My experience with Orchestral Tools is that they have great sounding recordings, but severe issues with q & a. There are issues with the balance between articulations, instruments, and sections. BST First Chairs and Berlin Brass are particularly afflicted. There are wonky transitions, noises in the samples (though not more than with other developers), functions that don't work as intended, or sometimes at all. Whether you report them to support or not makes no difference. They don't get fixed either way.

I have posted about stark volume differences for pizzicato samples between Vl 1 and Vl 2 in BST First Chairs out of the box.






Berlin Strings First Chairs vs CSSS?


From the email that I just received, it appears that Berlin First Chairs is getting what is described as "better legato performance", some sample fixes and a first chair double bass, in version 2.0. Furthermore, it is on sale for a couple of weeks for €199. I'm wondering how this compares to...




vi-control.net





OT advertise these are having natural volume balances. That's not the case at all. You have to rebalance everything, and often quite drastically for it to work. Articulations have the same name, but are not the same thing between instruments. One instruments staccato is another instruments detache long.

Also, the 'niente' switch does not do anything at all. I wrote to support about that. They aknowledged the issue and said they would look into it. Nothing happened. A year later, OT released v2 of their First Chairs. Guess what: volume inconsistencies are worse than before (so is the legato). And the niente switch still doesn't work. I wrote to support to ask about it again. They told me that this was intentional and that strings couldn't play niente anyways, so it wasn't necessary to have such a feature - well, cool to have a switch that does nothing but advertise a feature that isn't there.

For these reasons, I am not surprised that the SINE ports seem to have some problems with q & a. And based on my experience with OT, I don't expect them to fix the majority of them.

I factor that in when thinking about Berlin Brass. The recordings sound fantastic. But is that enough for me to put up with q & a issues and constantly program around them? I haven't decided that yet.


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## Robin (Nov 19, 2021)

OT_Tobias said:


> Hi folks!
> 
> thanks for your feedback about the legatos!
> Indeed the example on the 1st page is because all dnymic layers but one are disabled. This is a known issue in SINE's legato handling and of course not intended to be that way. For now we strongly suggest to have all layers enabled.
> ...


Thanks @OT_Tobias for looking into that. Unfortunately I don't think the legato issues are only based on this bug. @leonardo made a comparison here where he even tried to match it as much as possible through different MIDI data and without deactivating layers (I think) with a similarly underwhelming result that I was getting from my tests. Additionally, I don't think those are "specific" issues that are based on specific transitions or patches but it seems like a general issue over the entire libraries.


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## Evans (Nov 19, 2021)

muk said:


> OT advertise these are having natural volume balances. That's not the case at all.


@OT_Tobias the Berlin Brass Horns Bells Up patches need a look in SINE. They're absurdly loud compared to the rest of the library, even compared to the Kontakt equivalent patches.


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## Casiquire (Nov 19, 2021)

muk said:


> My experience with Orchestral Tools is that they have great sounding recordings, but severe issues with q & a. There are issues with the balance between articulations, instruments, and sections. BST First Chairs and Berlin Brass are particularly afflicted. There are wonky transitions, noises in the samples (though not more than with other developers), functions that don't work as intended, or sometimes at all. Whether you report them to support or not makes no difference. They don't get fixed either way.
> 
> I have posted about stark volume differences for pizzicato samples between Vl 1 and Vl 2 in BST First Chairs out of the box.
> 
> ...


I still think things get blown out of proportion here. I don't feel the need to rebalance "everything". Just a stray patch here or there, and even that might depend on the context in the mix. I have not experienced inconsistency between patch names either. Actually i like how consistent a lot of the important patches have been. If i see "portato" i know exactly what to expect between libraries. I don't own the first chairs which seem to be the main issues for you, but i have heard that they're a much weaker library of theirs, so that could be why you feel the way you do, but in the mains that i have, things work pretty well.

You're right about updates and fixes. They do need to do better there


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## muk (Nov 19, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I don't feel the need to rebalance "everything". Just a stray patch here or there, and even that might depend on the context in the mix. I have not experienced inconsistency between patch names either.


Good to hear that it's not as prevalent with other libraries. My experience is based mainly on the First Chairs library. If you read through my post in the thread I linked, it is really that bad with the First Chairs. I posted audio examples too. That purchase and the following experience with their support made me wary about Orchestral Tools Q & A.


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## Jonathan Moray (Nov 19, 2021)

Orchestral Tools has never been very good when it comes to scripting and editing, in my honest opinion. Of course, you can still write extremely evocative and beautiful music with them, which is true for even very old libraries.

They excel at certain things (amount of articulations and tone) but for the most part, their libraries are in the lower tier of legatos among the medium to big devs, a lot of articulations are inconsistent, pre-delay for round robins are extremely inconsistent, noises that shouldn't be in the recordings, few or no updates even after repeated complaints (props to them for recording a FF layer and adding the Solo Bass a couple of years back), but generally not much happens. I own a couple of their products, but rarely use them and definitely won't be porting over to SINE. It doesn't feel good to be left in the dirt by them dropping support for the Kontakt version just because I don't want to use a lesser version of their product and their extremely limited player (mic-merge is a nice addition). I understand why they do it, but still, it doesn't leave me feeling all fuzzy inside.

There are just certain things/decisions that make them a hassle to use, and SINE is not making it any easier - apparently, it's even making it worse (as seems the common denominator when it comes to devs moving away from Kontakt). This is giving me the impression that OT is doing the best they can, but their best is just subpar.


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## jbuhler (Nov 19, 2021)

muk said:


> Whether you report them to support or not makes no difference. They don't get fixed either way.


Some things do get fixed—especially issues with Sine (though the 1.0.6 update took forever to be released)—but not enough in terms of the libraries. Most libraries get one update soon after release, and then nothing for a very long time. That said, I do see that both JXL Brass and Modus have recent updates that I haven't yet applied, so there is hope that maybe library maintenance is rising in priority.

I agree that FC library has real issues. I don't know if you are referring to the Sine version or Kontakt. I only have the Sine version and have found them very squirrelly. I also have had real issues with the Sine version of the woodwind soloists. If I have an OT library that I would call unusable it would be these woodwind soloists in Sine.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Nov 19, 2021)

@jbuhler : Why would you call the Woodwinds Soloists unusable in SINE ?
I have them and like them, even if I never got the Kontakt version so I can't compare. My only issue is that sometimes when going legato between two articulations, like Swell to Expressive, I sometimes (often) get two notes, like the transition doesn't work properly. 

The only workaround I've found is to set up a polymap, transitions play correctly this way.

Here is an example with the English Horn : Two identical MIDI files, first one is played with regular keyswitches, and second one with a Polymap.


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## jbuhler (Nov 19, 2021)

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> @jbuhler : Why would you call the Woodwinds Soloists unusable in SINE ?
> I have them and like them, even if I never got the Kontakt version so I can't compare. My only issue is that sometimes when going legato between two articulations, like Swell to Expressive, I sometimes (often) get two notes, like the transition doesn't work properly.
> 
> The only workaround I've found is to set up a polymap, transitions play correctly this way.
> ...


I've not been able to get them to work to my liking. I've said this before: I think it's likely user error in that I haven't been able to get them set up properly so they sit with other instruments at all. But then I started working with the Duplex Saxes recorded in the same space with similar methodology and have had no issue at all with them. So now I don't know what to think. Still, I'd love someone to show me how to make these usable to me. I certainly have no stake in them remaining unusable. 

I also find that some of the legatos don't manage the crossfades between sustain sample and legato sample very well—a lot of double notes and just general bumpiness, but also not something I hear in the demos, so I don't know what to think about that either, except most (if not all) of the demos were made with the Kontakt version, which includes the Teldex IR. 

I've only messed around with polymap a little bit and hadn't thought to use it for this purpose. That's a good idea.


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## FrozenIcicle (Nov 19, 2021)

chrisav said:


> Wait what? How is Kontakt shit on M1 Macs (I'm still on intel, but this has me worried)?


Dude, it’s not optimised for logic. I have to run logic in rosetta mode just for it not to chew up my CpU. Pls read up on it


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## Jett Hitt (Nov 19, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I've not been able to get them to work to my liking. I've said this before: I think it's likely user error in that I haven't been able to get them set up properly so they sit with other instruments at all. But then I started working with the Duplex Saxes recorded in the same space with similar methodology and have had no issue at all with them. So now I don't know what to think. Still, I'd love someone to show me how to make these usable to me. I certainly have no stake in them remaining unusable.
> 
> I also find that some of the legatos don't manage the crossfades between sustain sample and legato sample very well—a lot of double notes and just general bumpiness, but also not something I hear in the demos, so I don't know what to think about that either, except most (if not all) of the demos were made with the Kontakt version, which includes the Teldex IR.
> 
> I've only messed around with polymap a little bit and hadn't thought to use it for this purpose. That's a good idea.


I too have experienced these problems with Woodwind Soloists. At first I thought I just didn’t understand how to use it, but something is wrong when you can’t cobble legatos and sustains together in the same passage. This, along with BFC, has been my worst OT purchase.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Nov 19, 2021)

Comparing SINE Woodwinds to Kontakt Revive and I don't think there's an issue with the SINE legatos for the instruments I've tried so far (Clarinet 1, Oboe 1, Bassoon 1 and 2). If anything, the SINE ones feel a little smoother. They also seem to have EQ'd / processed the SINE samples differently in some cases (especially noticeable in the bassoons)? Tone sounds different. Either way, I would be happy to swap in the SINE versions in my template now - I do hope OT adds a proper purge though ASAP.


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## muziksculp (Nov 19, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I do hope OT adds a proper purge though ASAP.


+1000


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Nov 19, 2021)

Purge will be useless as long as their streaming is fkd. My computer nearly crashes every time sine needs to load something


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## ALittleNightMusic (Nov 19, 2021)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Purge will be useless as long as their streaming is fkd. My computer nearly crashes every time sine needs to load something


Doesn't happen for me - so I guess purge won't be useless for me. But SINE has not had the best track record when it comes to crashing.


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## dhmusic (Nov 19, 2021)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Purge will be useless as long as their streaming is fkd. My computer nearly crashes every time sine needs to load something





ALittleNightMusic said:


> Doesn't happen for me - so I guess purge won't be useless for me. But SINE has not had the best track record when it comes to crashing.


Yeah... ngl I've had a few kinda bad crashes where I lost a few hours of work. That's my biggest deal with SINE. I guess I have to tip toe around it sometimes, at least in Cubase


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## muziksculp (Nov 19, 2021)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Purge will be useless as long as their streaming is fkd. My computer nearly crashes every time sine needs to load something


That's very Strange. SINE has never crashed my DAW, and streams samples flawlessly when using it. 

So a proper Purge function would really make it a better sample player. 

Have you contacted OT Tech-Support, to find out why your system is crashing when loading patches into SINE ? 

I would be very frustrated if I had to experience this, I hope you find the cause of it, and resolve it. I'm guessing it is something in your system/DAW that is causing this problem when using SINE. It's not something many SINE users are complaining about.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Nov 19, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Doesn't happen for me - so I guess purge won't be useless for me. But SINE has not had the best track record when it comes to crashing.


Surely its not just me. Even on an ssd it's really poor, esp. Compared to opus/kontakt


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## muziksculp (Nov 19, 2021)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Surely its not just me. Even on an ssd it's really poor, esp. Compared to opus/kontakt


What DAW are you using, are you on Mac/PC ?


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## ALittleNightMusic (Nov 19, 2021)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Surely its not just me. Even on an ssd it's really poor, esp. Compared to opus/kontakt


I'm sure it isn't just you. I was in that camp for months because SINE AU would crash Logic consistently. In the earlier days of it, the VST version would also consistently crash Cubase (especially at exit). I would contact them though - I had a very pleasant interaction with their support team earlier today.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Nov 19, 2021)

Studio one


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## muziksculp (Nov 19, 2021)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Studio one


As you can see in my Signature. I'm also using Studio One Pro ver 5.4.1 / Windows 10. I have zero issues with SINE, never had any issues since SINE was released. 

Mac/PC ?


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Nov 19, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I'm sure it isn't just you. I was in that camp for months because SINE AU would crash Logic consistently. In the earlier days of it, the VST version would also consistently crash Cubase (especially at exit). I would contact them though - I had a very pleasant interaction with their support team earlier today.


In terms of streaming, I can't imagine why my experience would differ from others - which as I said made streaming samples practically useless (ie. If your daw is playing back + streaming samples from purge it basically seizes the system/can't playback)


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Nov 19, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> As you can see in my Signature. I'm also using Studio One Pro ver 5.4.1 / Windows 10. I have zero issues with SINE, never had any issues since SINE was released.
> 
> Mac/PC ?


Pc similar set up to you. 

I have opus n kontakt samples on all the same drives with no issue in those players


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## muziksculp (Nov 19, 2021)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Pc similar set up to you.
> 
> I have opus n kontakt samples on all the same drives with no issue in those players


Have you contacted OT Tech-Support about your issue with SINE ?


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## jbuhler (Nov 19, 2021)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Surely its not just me. Even on an ssd it's really poor, esp. Compared to opus/kontakt


I think there’s a lot of different experiences with Sine, even more so than the SF player. Sine gives me some issues but they are mostly nuisance ones, the worst of them being Sine hanging on a project start. I imagine having VEP would eliminate that. But others report very severe issues, lots of crashes, and such, and they seem hard to isolate so no one can know whether they are going to be lucky or not. In any event it’s clear to me that Sine is giving a number—and not a small number— of people issues. My sense from the forum is that for most Sine works as well as most other plug-ins. I think both of those things are true.


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## lucor (Nov 20, 2021)

Now that OT has also put the upgrade from BWW Legacy to Revive at 50%, I could get those plus Berlin Brass at a ridiculously low price.

Normally this would be an absolute no brainer, but right now I'm still held back because I unfortunately have very little trust that these SINE version issues will be resolved in the near future. Not only because OT tends to work at a snails pace (if things get fixed at all), but also because of what @Jonathan Moray said. 

After all these years of QC, legato and other numerous issues with everything they produce, I can't shake the feeling that the people working at OT simply lack the skillset to bring these samples to the next level. I know that sounds very harsh and I'm sorry to be so blunt. But I mean, just the fact that the close mics in some instruments were panned to the wrong sides without ever getting fixed in god knows how many years, and that they actually managed to transfer that same problem to the SINE version is speaking volumes to me.
Maybe they should hire a certain someone from this forum, that was recently snatched up by ISW to work on TSS. 

Guess I'll need to sleep on it for a few nights...


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## Michael Antrum (Nov 20, 2021)

lucor said:


> Now that OT has also put the upgrade from BWW Legacy to Revive at 50%, I could get those plus Berlin Brass at a ridiculously low price.
> 
> Normally this would be an absolute no brainer, but right now I'm still held back because I unfortunately have very little trust that these SINE version issues will be resolved in the near future. Not only because OT tends to work at a snails pace (if things get fixed at all), but also because of what @Jonathan Moray said.
> 
> ...



I'm kind of with you there. If this deal had been for the Kontakt version plus a free upgrade to the Sine version when it is properly finished, I'd have probably gone for it.

I don't like Sine very much, I don't get on with it - probably due to the fact that I try and avoid using it because of all the silly issues that are so annoying. I have a lot of Synchron Libraries and difference in the level QA polish is stark.

I know that you can still buy the Kontakt version, but it really jars that you then have to pay an additional 85 euros if you want to get the Sine version when they have sorted it out. Something that customers who purchased it previously do not.

I have Berlin Strings on Staffpad, and they are truly beautiful. I think Sine is still a work in progress - not to have purge on what us supposed to be a next generation engine is just bizarre in my opinion.

Remember there are no refunds and/or resale on these libraries, so if they end up with unresolved issues for years there is no recourse open to you.

To some extent, I wonder if the Berlin series is trading on its former glories. It's been said many times on they forum that you should buy a library for what it is now, not what it is promised to become, and the Sine version seems to be a work in progress rather than the finished article.

I'll be sleeping on this too.


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## prodigalson (Nov 20, 2021)

At least with OT libraries though you can add legato transitions to any long articulation so adding transitions to the Soft sustains (with their slighly progressive vibrato) or the espressivo longs or portatos gives you completely different legatos that can sound much more appropriate for the line than the default Sustain+Leg combination depending. Marked here:



Not saying its a solution to the problem, just that there is a lot of flexibility within their legato system and I'd suggest people play around with this before writing off the libraries completely. Perhaps Espressivo+Leg is more what you're looking for in a default legato? Perhaps not...


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## FrozenIcicle (Nov 20, 2021)

Just found this - Horns Ens Bells Up Marc Long D#3 E3 and F3 for comparison


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## FrozenIcicle (Nov 20, 2021)

prodigalson said:


> At least with OT libraries though you can add legato transitions to any long articulation so adding transitions to the Soft sustains (with their slighly progressive vibrato) or the espressivo longs or portatos gives you completely different legatos that can sound much more appropriate for the line than the default Sustain+Leg combination depending. Marked here:
> 
> 
> 
> Not saying its a solution to the problem, just that there is a lot of flexibility within their legato system and I'd suggest people play around with this before writing off the libraries completely. Perhaps Espressivo+Leg is more what you're looking for in a default legato? Perhaps not...



video is unavailable


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## Casiquire (Nov 20, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> Yeah... ngl I've had a few kinda bad crashes where I lost a few hours of work. That's my biggest deal with SINE. I guess I have to tip toe around it sometimes, at least in Cubase


It's 2021 and you don't have things auto-saving?!


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## Casiquire (Nov 20, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Comparing SINE Woodwinds to Kontakt Revive and I don't think there's an issue with the SINE legatos for the instruments I've tried so far (Clarinet 1, Oboe 1, Bassoon 1 and 2). If anything, the SINE ones feel a little smoother. They also seem to have EQ'd / processed the SINE samples differently in some cases (especially noticeable in the bassoons)? Tone sounds different. Either way, I would be happy to swap in the SINE versions in my template now - I do hope OT adds a proper purge though ASAP.


I think there's more than one issue being conflated in this discussion. There's group 1, who is talking about the legato compared to kontakt *with the Pixelpoet trick*, and in that group it's pretty unanimous that SINE is inferior. There's group 2, who isn't even aware of the trick or doesn't realize that it's a big part of this conversation and they're just shocked at how SINE "broke" everything. Then there's group 3, who may or may not be totally aware but it isn't their concern, they're finding patches that sound better or worse to them in the vanilla libraries. All three groups are using the same language as one another and the whole conversation is kind of a maddening cluster if you ask me


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## dhmusic (Nov 20, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> It's 2021 and you don't have things auto-saving?!


I have it set to every hour because of how long it takes to save my larger projects. It can be well over a minute which is super annoying haha


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## Casiquire (Nov 20, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> I have it set to every hour because of how long it takes to save my larger projects. It can be well over a minute which is super annoying haha


Ah fair enough. I feel your pain every time i work with MSS lol


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## jbuhler (Nov 20, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> I have it set to every hour because of how long it takes to save my larger projects. It can be well over a minute which is super annoying haha


Sounds like Studio One. (One of the main reasons I rarely use it any longer.) Logic's autosave is seamless, at best a momentary spinning ball, and it is almost instantaneous.


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## prodigalson (Nov 21, 2021)

FrozenIcicle said:


> video is unavailable


It wasn’t yesterday. It’s just the Berlin Strings walk thru vid from the website time stamped to 5:30


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Nov 21, 2021)

FrozenIcicle said:


> Just found this - Horns Ens Bells Up Marc Long D#3 E3 and F3 for comparison


That sample sounds familiar, it was like this in Kontakt.


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## tabulius (Nov 21, 2021)

I had only few minutes to play with Berlin Brass last night, and found it felt - weird. I have to test Sine and Kontakt side by side to make my mind, but a quick test got me worried.

What I found was for example between trumpet ens slurred legatos (slow) and run legatos (fast) there were around 4-5db volume difference. Also I was expecting a littlr more brighter FF layer, but that might be fine. Legatos in general sounded ”meh” for some reason and there were some weirdness in releases.

But I have to test things more to make up my mind...


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## muk (Nov 21, 2021)

Great of Henrik to make this video. For me, the results of Sine legato are mixed though. For the flute, I much prefer the Kontakt legato, except for the very fast legato where Sine has the runs patch. If I owned the Woodwinds, this would put me in the position that I would want to use the Kontakt version for legato, and Sine for the other articulations. A bit of a workflow nightmare right there. For the horn, again I prefer the Kontakt version. And that's before the Pixelpoet trick. With it, the Kontakt version gains further advantage over Sine for me. Berlin Strings - here there are some small issues in the Kontakt version with odd accents on some of the notes. The Sine version is smoother, yet for the legato transition alone, I slightly prefer Kontakt. Will have to check the Pixelpoet trick here too.

I guess Orchestral Tools was trying to superseed the Kontakt version with Sine, and they are dropping support for Kontakt. In its current form though, I will still be using the Kontakt version because of the greater flexibility of the player and the legato transitions that I prefer in the Kontakt version. That stops me from buying Berlin Brass at the sale now. I would want the Kontakt version now, but I also want ongoing support. And payingan extra 80€ to get both pushes Berlin Brass over the limit of affordability for me.


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## lucor (Nov 21, 2021)

muk said:


> Great of Henrik to make this video. For me, the results of Sine legato are mixed though. For the flute, I much prefer the Kontakt legato, except for the very fast legato where Sine has the runs patch. If I owned the Woodwinds, this would put me in the position that I would want to use the Kontakt version for legato, and Sine for the other articulations. A bit of a workflow nightmare right there. For the horn, again I prefer the Kontakt version. And that's before the Pixelpoet trick. With it, the Kontakt version gains further advantage over Sine for me. Berlin Strings - here there are some small issues in the Kontakt version with odd accents on some of the notes. The Sine version is smoother, yet for the legato transition alone, I slightly prefer Kontakt. Will have to check the Pixelpoet trick here too.
> 
> I guess Orchestral Tools was trying to superseed the Kontakt version with Sine, and they are dropping support for Kontakt. In its current form though, I will still be using the Kontakt version because of the greater flexibility of the player and the legato transitions that I prefer in the Kontakt version. That stops me from buying Berlin Brass at the sale now. I would want the Kontakt version now, but I also want ongoing support. And payingan extra 80€ to get both pushes Berlin Brass over the limit of affordability for me.



While I appreciate that Hendrik made this video, it further increases my worry that we'll never see much improvement to the SINE versions of the Berlin Series. He seems pretty adamant that the SINE legatos are better, but, just like you, even in his own examples I prefered everything from Kontakt except for maybe a slight improvement in the Violins (which also isn't saying much, because Berlin Strings legatos have always been pretty bad IMO).


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## zimm83 (Nov 21, 2021)

Kontakt lives !!!


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## tabulius (Nov 21, 2021)

Oh dear lord oh mighty. I just tested the trumpet ensemble legatos and I don't understand how Orchestral Tools could release this library. This is obviously a bug, and I wonder did they beta test this at all?!?

Here is a sample with the same midi data. Trumpet ensemble legatos played slow and fast. Kontakt trumpets play the line like a champ, Sine plays it like everyone is having a heart attack!

And also tried to compare the horn ensemble legatos. Although the Sine version is more balanced and clean, it misses those beautiful horn section swells between larger intervals.

View attachment BB Trumpet Ens Leg.mp3


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## tabulius (Nov 21, 2021)

Here is the example with horns ensemble. The Sine is cleaner but misses those nice swells that horns do so well. Sine handles the quicker line better and I would have to edit the Kontakt version a bit to make it sound better, but I do like the original more overall. I removed the FF layer from the Sine ensemble, and lowered volume -3dB to make match the volume.

View attachment BB Horns Ens Leg.mp3


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## Casiquire (Nov 21, 2021)

Didn't the kontakt version of the flutes have runs too? People are acting like they didn't


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## Casiquire (Nov 21, 2021)

tabulius said:


> Here is the example with horns ensemble. The Sine is cleaner but misses those nice swells that horns do so well. Sine handles the quicker line better and I would have to edit the Kontakt version a bit to make it sound better, but I do like the original more overall. I removed the FF layer from the Sine ensemble, and lowered volume -3dB to make match the volume.
> 
> View attachment BB Horns Ens Leg.mp3


I'd say the second one sounds way more realistic and smooth but it's slightly too smooth and loses some character. I assume that's SINE? Between the two I'd take the second one because it sounds like i don't need to fight against the samples, and I'd hope the music itself has all the character we need, but in a perfect world we'd have some legato flexibility in SINE


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## jononotbono (Nov 21, 2021)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Purge will be useless as long as their streaming is fkd. My computer nearly crashes every time sine needs to load something


Never touch any control in SINE whilst you are loading a library or loading or unloading a mic position. I actually did a live stream ages ago and the end of it goes to shit simply because I touched the midi keyboard when I was trying a mic position before it had finished loading. Had to stop the stream because of it! 😂

Here's a link to the end of video when it happens...


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## Evans (Nov 21, 2021)

jononotbono said:


> Never touch any control in SINE whilst you are loading a library or loading or unloading a mic position.


Yes. SINE used to be so bad for me (in Cubase) that I _had_ to host it in VEPro. It would freeze even under the lightest circumstances.

These days, however, it's stable enough so that this is the _only _thing that freezes it up. But oh boy, it really does a number on it if I touch a damn thing while it anything is loading.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Nov 21, 2021)

tabulius said:


> Oh dear lord oh mighty. I just tested the trumpet ensemble legatos and I don't understand how Orchestral Tools could release this library. This is obviously a bug, and I wonder did they beta test this at all?!?
> 
> Here is a sample with the same midi data. Trumpet ensemble legatos played slow and fast. Kontakt trumpets play the line like a champ, Sine plays it like everyone is having a heart attack!
> 
> ...


I've made a lot of comparisons like this and Kontakt wins - at least for me - every time. The scariest part is it's not just the new Berlin ports. I had the opportunity to compare BWW Soloists as well and came to the same conclusions. I just don't understand.


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## artinro (Nov 21, 2021)

lucor said:


> While I appreciate that Hendrik made this video, it further increases my worry that we'll never see much improvement to the SINE versions of the Berlin Series. He seems pretty adamant that the SINE legatos are better, but, just like you, even in his own examples I prefered everything from Kontakt except for maybe a slight improvement in the Violins (which also isn't saying much, because Berlin Strings legatos have always been pretty bad IMO).


Agreed.


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## lettucehat (Nov 21, 2021)

I’m guessing that they can’t just say the legato is “bad” on a new release/update, whether they think it is or not. I also don’t mind if they think a more agile legato with less lifelike transitions is better than the Kontakt ones, and therefore a superior new “default” legato. I’d just love some kind of indication that legato can be modified. Speed knobs are pretty standard and it would just be great to know something like that will exist. They are the people who made the original nice legatos so it shouldn’t be complicated to recreate them in some way.


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## Raphioli (Nov 21, 2021)

OT_Tobias said:


> Hi folks!
> 
> thanks for your feedback about the legatos!
> Indeed the example on the 1st page is because all dnymic layers but one are disabled. This is a known issue in SINE's legato handling and of course not intended to be that way. For now we strongly suggest to have all layers enabled.
> ...


Very encouraging. Thx for interacting.

I hope you look in to the Pixelpoet trick.
https://vi-control.net/community/threads/pixelpoet-trick-–-legato-enhancer-for-kontakt-libraries.113298/

Its not specific to Berlin Series, but it does improve legatos.
And someone posted an example in the thread above using BS.
I hope you use that as reference when you're tweaking the SINE version.
Or even better, let users go under the hood like in Kontakt, but with the SINE player so we can just do it ourselves.

Thx!


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## Raphioli (Nov 21, 2021)

lucor said:


> While I appreciate that Hendrik made this video, it further increases my worry that we'll never see much improvement to the SINE versions of the Berlin Series. He seems pretty adamant that the SINE legatos are better, but, just like you, even in his own examples I prefered everything from Kontakt except for maybe a slight improvement in the Violins (which also isn't saying much, because Berlin Strings legatos have always been pretty bad IMO).


I guess the ultimate solution @OrchestralTools can provide is a detailed editing feature in SINE for the user to go under the hood and edit the transitions to how they like, just like we can do in Kontakt.

Putting legato aside, I like what I hear from the new ff layer for BB. Too bad its not in Kontakt.
But I might download just the BB SINE version just for those ff layers.

[EDITED]
BTW, the good thing about @Hendrik-Schwarzer publishing this video is that, he achknowledges there is a large amount of users concerned about the legatos.
So that's good.


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## Raphioli (Nov 21, 2021)

jononotbono said:


> Never touch any control in SINE whilst you are loading a library or loading or unloading a mic position. I actually did a live stream ages ago and the end of it goes to shit simply because I touched the midi keyboard when I was trying a mic position before it had finished loading. Had to stop the stream because of it! 😂
> 
> Here's a link to the end of video when it happens...



LMAO

Thought you were scoring for the new Matrix or something, also because of hearing lots of voices of "Agent Smiths (or should I say Agent Lukes xD )"


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## jbuhler (Nov 21, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Didn't the kontakt version of the flutes have runs too? People are acting like they didn't


Isn’t it that the Sine version are playable runs and then both also have recorded runs?


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## jbuhler (Nov 21, 2021)

Evans said:


> Yes. SINE used to be so bad for me (in Cubase) that I _had_ to host it in VEPro. It would freeze even under the lightest circumstances.
> 
> These days, however, it's stable enough so that this is the _only _thing that freezes it up. But oh boy, it really does a number on it if I touch a damn thing while it anything is loading.


It no longer exhibits this behavior in Logic. It won’t play right while loading (obviously) but it no longer crashes or stops loading or even beach balls if you do anything while it’s loading.


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## AEF (Nov 21, 2021)

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> I've made a lot of comparisons like this and Kontakt wins - at least for me - every time. The scariest part is it's not just the new Berlin ports. I had the opportunity to compare BWW Soloists as well and came to the same conclusions. I just don't understand.


Its bc SINE is a garbage piece of software designed to do far to many needless things.

We dont need the store in SINE. We dont need downloads in SINE. Mic merge is a great idea but proper purging is more valuable. It is an endless parade of bugs. It lacks significant functionality compared to OTs own Capsule in Kontakt. And it clearly struggles with scripting.


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## Simon Ravn (Nov 21, 2021)

Evans said:


> An extreme slowdown happened to me during the Brass download. A quit and restart kicked it into high gear.


I have to constantly quit and restart SINE to get download speeds up. It works fine for seconds/minutes, then it grinds to a halt. Has happened since day one for me.


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## Casiquire (Nov 21, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Isn’t it that the Sine version are playable runs and then both also have recorded runs?


No kontakt has playable runs too


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## jbuhler (Nov 21, 2021)

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> I've made a lot of comparisons like this and Kontakt wins - at least for me - every time. The scariest part is it's not just the new Berlin ports. I had the opportunity to compare BWW Soloists as well and came to the same conclusions. I just don't understand.


The WW soloists in Sine remain a serious problem. First Chairs too, though somewhat less the case. Others have issues with Special Bows, but I prefer the Sine version, and I prefer the Sine version of the two Arks as well. 

The workflow improvements on BS so far are enough that i already greatly prefer Sine, and I found the legato behavior squirrelly in Kontakt in any case. (I haven’t tried the pixelpoet trick on BS yet.) I prefer the sound of the Sine version of BWW (not assessing the legato or anything else). I don’t know if the default mic set is different or they have reprocessed them. I don’t own BWW so this is just my impression from walkthroughs and Hendrik’s comparisons.


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## Batrawi (Nov 21, 2021)

Raphioli said:


> Or even better, let users go under the hood like in Kontakt, but with the SINE player so we can just do it ourselves.


even much better, just put a legato speed control on SINE's front end as a standard control.


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## Raphioli (Nov 21, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> even much better, just put a legato speed control on SINE's front end as a standard control.


That would be great, but probably better to provide a more detailed request.
Because they might think "we already have a legato speed adjustment tab", 
which just switches through multiple transition samples.


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## jbuhler (Nov 21, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> No kontakt has playable runs too


That’s not what Hendrik said so I have to imagine that the fast legato (or whatever they called it in Kontakt) is scripted differently than the runs legato in Sine, and OT didn’t consider the fast legato in Kontakt optimized for runs. But I don’t have the library and am only going by what Hendrik said and that he turned off “runs” legato to make the comparison “fair.”


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## Simon Ravn (Nov 21, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> I have it set to every hour because of how long it takes to save my larger projects. It can be well over a minute which is super annoying haha


VEP could fix that problem if it works for your workflow to have plugins hosted outside the DAW.


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## muziksculp (Nov 21, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> even much better, just put a legato speed control on SINE's front end as a standard control.


Exactly. That's what I would love to see OT do for SINE via an Update. This will make their Legatos so much more flexible, and tweakable to taste for each scenario, or user's taste. No more complaining about SINE Legatos.


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## Casiquire (Nov 21, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> That’s not what Hendrik said so I have to imagine that the fast legato (or whatever they called it in Kontakt) is scripted differently than the runs legato in Sine, and OT didn’t consider the fast legato in Kontakt optimized for runs. But I don’t have the library and am only going by what Hendrik said and that he turned off “runs” legato to make the comparison “fair.”


Hmm maybe what he meant was that he was turning off other legatos so that we only hear one type in the comparison


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## jbuhler (Nov 21, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Hmm maybe what he meant was that he was turning off other legatos so that we only hear one type in the comparison


No, he specifically said this was new functionality for Sine. I know in BS that the agile legato or whatever isn’t named as such in Sine and it also has a runs legato so imagine that the runs legato is a rescripting of that. Something similar is likely true for BWW.

ETA: he also turned off runs legato on Sine so that it had the same functionality as the Kontakt version. Or so he said.


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## dhmusic (Nov 21, 2021)

Simon Ravn said:


> VEP could fix that problem if it works for your workflow to have plugins hosted outside the DAW.


haha the sad part is I've owned it for years, I just never use it anymore since I moved back to a single system


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## dhmusic (Nov 21, 2021)

tabulius said:


> I removed the FF layer from the Sine ensemble


you should turn it back on and compare so people can hear what i've been saying the last couple days.

You can't disable dynamic layers in a SINE legato patch. You also can't disable releases for those either


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## Simon Ravn (Nov 21, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> haha the sad part is I've owned it for years, I just never use it anymore since I moved back to a single system


I use VEP with a single system these days. It's not just for network use...


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## jbuhler (Nov 21, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> you should turn it back on and compare so people can hear what i've been saying the last couple days.
> 
> You can't disable dynamic layers in a SINE legato patch. You also can't disable releases for those either


I'm not sure what you mean that you can't disable dynamic layers. Do you mean it's not possible or that it sounds weird? Because it is certainly possible and it's often useful to do so. It's true that you can't disable releases though if you have legato engaged.


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## dhmusic (Nov 21, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I'm not sure what you mean that you can't disable dynamic layers. Do you mean it's not possible or that it sounds weird? Because it is certainly possible and it's often useful to do so. It's true that you can't disable releases though if you have legato engaged.


Doing so messes with the scripted legato. If you disengage a lower level for example it tends to cut out legato entirely in most of the patches I've tried


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## JF (Nov 21, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> Doing so messes with the scripted legato. If you disengage a lower level for example it tends to cut out legato entirely in most of the patches I've tried


Has OT said they are looking to fix this?


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## jbuhler (Nov 21, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> Doing so messes with the scripted legato. If you disengage a lower level for example it tends to cut out legato entirely in most of the patches I've tried


I've encountered issues taking out middle layers, but never the top or bottom layers. Not to say that it's perfect. The scripting is optimized for the full set of dynamic layers and you can often sense that something feels off at the top or bottom when you bump up against the boundary where the disabled dynamic layer should be, but I haven't had issues with legato intervals disappearing when I disable the top or bottom layer.


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## dhmusic (Nov 21, 2021)

JF said:


> Has OT said they are looking to fix this?


I believe so, but I don't know if it's the highest priority right now. They'd have to reprogram a lot of individual patches and I have no idea how long that would take. I did bring it to their attention a good while ago though.

You can work around this with some clever polymaps


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## dhmusic (Nov 21, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I've encountered issues taking out middle layers, but never the top or bottom layers. Not to say that it's perfect. The scripting is optimized for the full set of dynamic layers and you can often sense that something feels off at the top or bottom when you bump up against the boundary where the disabled dynamic layer should be, but I haven't had issues with legato intervals disappearing when I disable the top or bottom layer.


How high do you tend to set the legato volume?


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## jbuhler (Nov 21, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> How high do you tend to set the legato volume?


I tend to lower the legato volumes from the default. And I've been disabling layers for awhile without encountering an issue. But I was testing it here just now with the BS cello. Removing the top layer was initially fine, which I tested both normally and then with portamento just to make sure I wasn't deceiving myself about the transition being there. Removing the lower layer worked too, initially, but then started surging on transitions and then dropping out. Then I moved the modwheel and it went back to normal. Going back to the top layer removed I started getting severe dropout issues. Then I restored all the layers, played for a bit and went back to removing the top layer, and it was behaving normally again. So I can confirm that there is an issue, but also that it seems to be intermittent.


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## dhmusic (Nov 21, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I tend to lower the legato volumes from the default. And I've been disabling layers for awhile without encountering an issue. But I was testing it here just now with the BS cello. Removing the top layer was initially fine, which I tested both normally and then with portamento just to make sure I wasn't deceiving myself about the transition being there. Removing the lower layer worked too, initially, but then started surging on transitions and then dropping out. Then I moved the modwheel and it went back to normal. Going back to the top layer removed I started getting severe dropout issues. Then I restored all the layers, played for a bit and went back to removing the top layer, and it was behaving normally again. So I can confirm that there is an issue, but also that it seems to be intermittent.


okay cool glad I'm not crazy haha. I tend max out the legato volumes, basically to isolate them. So when these problems come up they might as well have Gilbert Gottfried singing the transitions


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Nov 21, 2021)

jononotbono said:


> Never touch any control in SINE whilst you are loading a library or loading or unloading a mic position. I actually did a live stream ages ago and the end of it goes to shit simply because I touched the midi keyboard when I was trying a mic position before it had finished loading. Had to stop the stream because of it! 😂
> 
> Here's a link to the end of video when it happens...



mate, that almost makes me like it again.


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## G_Erland (Nov 21, 2021)

arafaratanran said:


> It is good to get an official feedback from OT about the legatos. However, I asked many times for an official statement regarding all missing CC implementation of Sine vs Capsule and I never got an answer to that.
> 
> In this thread, it is also causing astonishment that even at this point it is still not possible to automate the mixer via CC. Some people might overlook that, for some it may not even be of importance. But from my experience, most professional composers I know still use templates for orchestral instuments (mostly in VEpro) and the midi automation of capsule is rather critical to them. It is even a crucial point why they chose OT libraries in the first place.
> 
> ...


It might be a DAW thing (i use s1), Im curious just to learn. So i set up the sine mic channels, super easy. I automate those channels. Is it really a thing to have all the mic channels, and then also have separate automation of the ui mixer as well?

Edit: or do you have it all on one channel and then automate mixer output, is that the case?


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## Fever Phoenix (Nov 21, 2021)

wow.. I never thought I would skip a Berlin series sale.. I did stay away from Sine for a long time, as I encountered a lot of freezes in Cubase right after the launch. I did not buy Modus because of that.. 

Upon release of Tallinn, I tried it again. Clean re-install of Sine, new version, and Tallinn worked like a charme. However not warming up to the player. And would Tallinn be in Kontakt I'd probably use it a lot more 🤷‍♂️


So, yeah, never thought I'd skip a Berlin series sale..


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## Zanshin (Nov 21, 2021)

Kontakt versions are on sale too.


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## coprhead6 (Nov 21, 2021)

I just loaded Flute 1 / Horn 1 into Kontakt and SINE to directly compare legato. I played slow, medium, and fast intervals while clicking between instances. 

Both instrument’s legatos are much clearer in SINE. While the transitions themselves are not obviously more “real”, Kontakt legatos clearly have more sample build-up / chorusing and more sloppy cross fades. Perhaps there is less also room ambience in the legato (SSWs biggest flaw). Also the crossover from slow legato to runs legato is scripted better in SINE - it’s a pleasure to play on SINE.

I am definitely disappointed in the feature set of SINE however. No mutes for the strings is a huge bummer.


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## G_Erland (Nov 21, 2021)

So Ive said this elsewhere before, but to me the big positive is the basic operation. Just the list, small tweaks, set up the outputs. Then obviously theres a lot of cc riding and so on. And i really enjoy the process now of painting in the articulations in s1. To me, its a great advantage over the design within the former platform, which required more tabbing and relied more on icons and such, though there are things i like there as well. Im also lucky that Ive had no major or really any recurring hiccups, save notes hanging if i change midi channel while playing a note.


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## jononotbono (Nov 21, 2021)

Raphioli said:


> LMAO
> 
> Thought you were scoring for the new Matrix or something, also because of hearing lots of voices of "Agent Smiths (or should I say Agent Lukes xD )"


I have to admit. It's quite a fresh sound 😂


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## arafaratanran (Nov 21, 2021)

G_Erland said:


> It might be a DAW thing (i use s1), Im curious just to learn. So i set up the sine mic channels, super easy. I automate those channels. Is it really a thing to have all the mic channels, and then also have separate automation of the ui mixer as well?
> 
> Edit: or do you have it all on one channel and then automate mixer output, is that the case?


Yes, I use the mixer of Kontakt Instruments to mix the desired sound of every orchestral instruments. I do this via CC, as this allows me to do all of that from Cubase, but the instruments are all loaded within VEpro. I don't have to look at VEpro very often that way, as I got all parameters nicely labeled on a touch screen. I don't want to have a separate mixer-track for every mic position of every instrument and without that I couldn't possibly conrol the volume of each mic with your approach.

Also, it is not exclusively about the mic mixer, but also all the other parameters you could control via CC in capsule. They basically desinged Capsule to make a workflow like mine possible next to other workflows. That is why I am not happy that Sine is till so far away from Kontakt and Capsule in that regard


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## Mike Fox (Nov 21, 2021)

I’m sure this has been asked before, but is Berlin Strings just as RAM hungry in Sine as it is in Kontakt?

Also, is the vibrato adjustable in BS?


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## Casiquire (Nov 21, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> I’m sure this has been asked before, but is Berlin Strings just as RAM hungry in Sine as it is in Kontakt?
> 
> Also, is the vibrato adjustable in BS?


Much less RAM hungry due to SINE compression


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## Mike Fox (Nov 21, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Much less RAM hungry due to SINE compression


Awesome! Think I’m gonna snag it.


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## jbuhler (Nov 21, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> Also, is the vibrato adjustable in BS?


Yes, but it is switchable, on/off. You can set up polymap to crossfade if you prefer that.


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## Mike Fox (Nov 21, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Yes, but it is switchable, on/off. You can set up polymap to crossfade if you prefer that.


Perfect!


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## servandus (Nov 21, 2021)

Thanks everyone for the comparisons uploaded so far. It's also great that Hendrik himself made a video about it, because it clearly shows, in my opinion, where OT is aiming at with the new Sine legato engine (the fact that he finds the new legatos an improvement over the old Kontakt version is indeed revelatory in some of his own examples). 

Still a bit undecided about what version to get (for reasons beyond the "legato championship"), but if for some of you the quality of the legatos is your main/only concern, I hope this might be of some help:

Thanks to the much longer preroll time in Staffpad we can hear the actual recorded intervals from which the transitions are taken for the Kontakt and Sine versions, and see what they are doing now with the original recordings to get the new legatos in sine.

Here's a flute example similar to the first one played by Hendrik. Slurred transitions isolated (no sustains) but crossfading into each other.

View attachment Slurred Legato.mp4


Now at a slower tempo, so that we can hear every interval isolated without any crossfading (except in the 8th and 16th notes, where we're still within the boundaries of the pre/postroll times at this tempo). What we're hearing here are the real transitions as played by the flutist.

View attachment Slurred Legato Transitions.mp4


Btw, if you're curious about how the playable runs transitions sound in isolation, here you have. These transitions are not only faster but slightly accented, as you can hear.

View attachment Playable Runs Transitions.mp4


I think these examples show that realtime playability is a high (the highest) priority in OT's plans, even to the expense of loosing the natural expressiveness of the real transitions captured in their original recordings, which are beautiful. Like many others in this forum, I wish they'd reconsider this approach, and offer some kind of control over the lenght of the transitions, even if they introduce a longer delay, much as AudioBro has done to MSS in their last update.

Again, thanks to everyone for the Kontakt vs Sine comparisons. Please, keep them coming.


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## Raphioli (Nov 21, 2021)

servandus said:


> I think these examples show that realtime playability is a high (the highest) priority in OT's plans, even to the expense of loosing the natural expressiveness of the real transitions captured in their original recordings, which are beautiful. Like many others in this forum, I wish they'd reconsider this approach, and offer some kind of control over the lenght of the transitions, even if they introduce a longer delay, much as AudioBro has done to MSS in their last update.


I think this is a very important point that people at @OrchestralTools need to read.

I know there are people out there who don't like the delay in CSS.
But then there are people who are completely ok with the delay if it adds realism.
Which is why I think it is important to offer the "option" for both.
I think Orchestral Tools should release a "variant" of their legato patches for all of their libraries which have a delay but has a more realistic legatos in addition to their current patches which prioritizes playability. 
(users who hate delay can use the current patches, the users who want realism can use the new "realistic legato patches" if you will)

Or just let us go under the hood and edit the hell out of those patches...


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## Flyo (Nov 22, 2021)

@OrchestralTools Thanks for the last update with AAX comp available. In the mix section we really need to know how much volume we are touching with specific volume numbers to get most of the mix tab.


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