# Adding space to a mix



## Geocranium (Jun 25, 2013)

So I've pretty much got my orchestral template totally filled with all the instruments that I want in it.

Right now, my biggest problem is creating "space" in my orchestra, especially with the brass section.

I only have libraries with single mic positions, so I'm trying to work with reverb and EQ to get them so sound further back. 
I haven't got to the point however, where it sounds like the brass is a behind the strings and woodwinds. It sound really "in your face" (ESPECIALLY the trumpets). 

Are there any major tips or tricks that you use to get the feeling of space in your templates?


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## Beat Kaufmann (Jun 27, 2013)

Hi
Convolution-Reverbs with their IRs can produce nice and natural distances. So using such IRs (Impuls Responses) from real rooms are great for creating different depths.
It is not necessary to use the whole IR (incl. the tail). Most time it is enough only to use the first ms (0 - 100ms or 0 - 300ms) for getting the depth.

So *one concept could be* to create 3 different depths within the DAW with groupe-channels. Route then each instrument through its certain depth. Within the output channel you can use a final reverb for giving some tail:
See the following Image. It shows you a possible routing (as I explained above)





Hope you can see the routings because of the max 480pixels :( 
Othertwise here as Download: Reverb Concept 1280 pixels

Here is an example how nice you can get depth without a lot of muddy convolution tail in the mean time. Such results you can't really get with just an "algo-" or just a convolution-reverb.
Listen to the Result different depths by changing the ER and the Dry signal
(For ERs I used the Schumann-Saal of the convolution Reverb VSL-SUITE (first 30ms), for the Tail I used the Roomworks-Reverb of Cubase (Church-Preset) with a constant level within the output channel (as tail over all so to say) 

Different depths can really help to get very transparent mixes (overdoing it is allowed).
Example1: http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/VSL_New_VI_U/BK_Symphonic_Rag_VI_07.mp3
Example2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMAkPT9ggtg

Hope that helped a bit.

Best 
Beat


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## Dan Mott (Jun 27, 2013)

Hey Beat

Nice info there.

One question, does more ER equal more distance from the source?


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## kfirpr (Jun 27, 2013)

Great info there Beat, Do you know how can I remove ER from Valhalla VintageVerb?
Just lower the diffusion?
http://www.valhalladsp.com/images/Valha ... V1_0_0.png

What is considered to be the tail in this? the decay


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## Geocranium (Jun 27, 2013)

Thanks! That's very helpful. 

I don't really know how to just make my impulse responses ER only however... I use QL Spaces and I don't think there's an option for me to only use certain parts of the IR.

How do I get a convolution plugin to only use to ER and not the tail?


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## tmm (Jun 27, 2013)

Geocranium @ Thu Jun 27 said:


> Thanks! That's very helpful.
> 
> I don't really know how to just make my impulse responses ER only however... I use QL Spaces and I don't think there's an option for me to only use certain parts of the IR.
> 
> How do I get a convolution plugin to only use to ER and not the tail?



+1 to this, very interesting read Beat. I hadn't thought of setting it up that way. I imagine something similar is still possible with algo reverb. For example, B2 has a set of dual engine patches of the same 'space' at different depths (Scoring Stage Close / Mid / Deep). I never thought to use more than one at a time, though. I'll test that out this evening!


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## Beat Kaufmann (Jun 27, 2013)

Wow, what a feedback!



> *Dan-Jay*:
> One question, does more ER equal more distance from the source?


Yes. Listening to the completely "wet" IR gives you the example of the deepest possible depth - or in other words how far your instruments can be positioned (acoustically). 



> *kfirpr*:
> Do you know how can I remove ER from Valhalla VintageVerb?


Diff > Early to 0%



> *Geocranium*:
> I use QL Spaces and I don't think there's an option for me to only use certain parts of the IR. How do I get a convolution plugin to only use to ER and not the tail?


You also can create different depths with 3 Instances of a convolution reverbs like QL-Spaces with different dry/wet ratios or with different IRs. Then you don't need an extra tail reverb within the output channel.



> *Geocranium*:
> How do I get a convolution plugin to only use to ER and not the tail?[/


Some DAW have integrated Convolution Reverbs. If they offer the possibility to draw a volume curve over the time you simply decrease the volume after 20-200ms.
Here as an example with the one of cakewalk.




There are other convolution reverbs with this possibility such as the two from VSL, the Space Designer from Logic, Wave's IR, SIR (freeware), LiquidSonics Reverberate (LE) and lots of others





> *tmm*:
> I imagine something similar is still possible with algo reverb.


Of course - but in general the ERs of Convolution Reverbs sound more natural than those of the algos and inverse the tails of the algos often sound more natural than the static tail of the convolution IRs. So the system I showed above tries to profit from both advantages. So if you could use for the ERs IRs and for the tail B2 or Breeze it would sound fantastic.
Further: Listen to my example above with the marimba which disappears in the depth. Such deep depths are difficult to produce with algo reverbs. 

Best 
Beat


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## emid (Jun 27, 2013)

@ Beat - always learn from your visual examples. Thank you!


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## ThomasL (Jun 27, 2013)

Beat Kaufmann @ 2013-06-27 said:


> > *Dan-Jay*:
> > One question, does more ER equal more distance from the source?
> 
> 
> Yes. Listening to the completely "wet" IR gives you the example of the deepest possible depth - or in other words how far your instruments can be positioned (acoustically).


For the tail yes, for the ER, no. The further away a sound is, the less early reflections you hear, they get "caught up" in the reverb tail itself.


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## Beat Kaufmann (Jun 28, 2013)

ThomasL is right my answer was not perfect. 

The question was: 
...does more ER equal more distance from the source?

Each Impulse Response was recorded at a certain point in the room.
So it contains Early Reflections and Tail. If you listen a sound through such an IR you can here the combination ER-Tail. 

So I would say as well as ThomasL now: More ER = more distance is not quite correct. 
It depends more on the type of ER. 

But also: Only Tail without ER gives no real depth. That's the case when a singer sings in a cathedral just in front of you very close. But the problem is that our brain interprets the incoming sound and connects tail with distance. So we probably also feel a sort of distance when only tail is in a mix.
Nevertheless, giving depth to a mix should work without a lot of tail.
I produced once a Demo for EA-Reverb. A Reverb which can produce such ERs nicely without IRs:
http://www.eareckon.com/en/products/eareverb-vst-au-reverb-plugin.html
It shows depth without a lot of tail. 
(See the lowest Example with 3 Trumpets)

Best 
Beat


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