# Mixing trailer music...



## maxiedaniels (Nov 23, 2021)

I've been really listening to a lot of Audiomachine and 2WEI, and I'm constantly surprised at what feels like a lack of impact. I think it's to do with the sub region.. it seems there's a lot of rumbling and not so much any big sudden hits in the sub region (except for the occasional sub drop). I'm coming over from the pop world, so it may be some disconnect there, but any pop song I listen to on the charts has lots of punch in the drums, etc.

Does anybody have any mixing tutorials specific to trailers that explain the reasoning behind trailer mixing sounding this way? Or can anyone offer some advice?


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## kenose (Nov 23, 2021)

I'd be interested in some example tracks, it might help to be able to dissect why a specific arrangement was mixed a certain way.

In my experience, a lot of what I think you're talking about depends on the sound sources involved in the track. Specifically orchestra. For example, a track with tons of huge layered up epic orch. (low strings/low brass.. etc) is going to have lots of thick rumbly low end rolling around and requires extremely careful sub management to maintain punch and loudness. In a lot of those types of tracks, the sub region ends up reserved for big downbeat type hits. You can't just have sub hitting on everything, as it lessens the impact of the big important statement hits.

The other obvious thing to consider is that trailer tracks are meant to go underneath other content— which can include crazy amounts of sound design with who knows what sort of sub/low end content.

Tracks that are more heavily focused on synth/electronic sound design elements tend to have more of the extreme punch and focus you're talking about because the sound sources themselves are easier to focus and control. You can also push them WAY harder in terms of loudness because the arrangement is much sparser— like a super loud DnB/bass music track.

For example this track from Kings and Creatures:


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## RAdkins (Nov 23, 2021)

Alex Pfeffer has several mixing videos on his YouTube channel. It’s mostly a little EQ and reverb on all channels and additional compression on percussion and choir channels.


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## maxiedaniels (Nov 23, 2021)

kenose said:


> I'd be interested in some example tracks, it might help to be able to dissect why a specific arrangement was mixed a certain way.


Hmm an example that I'm feeling like doesn't punch that much is Audiomachine - We Are Gods (when the first big section comes in, around 1:15 -


It just feels kinda mushy and not punchy to me, but it landed the Black Window trailer, so I know I can't be correct. The Kings & Creatures track you listed definitely feels more punchy to me, but it still has a bit of a mush feel vs what I would instinctually expect. Maybe it's all just more compressed than I naturally like?


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## Hunter123 (Nov 23, 2021)

maxiedaniels said:


> Hmm an example that I'm feeling like doesn't punch that much is Audiomachine - We Are Gods (when the first big section comes in, around 1:15 -
> 
> 
> It just feels kinda mushy and not punchy to me, but it landed the Black Window trailer, so I know I can't be correct. The Kings & Creatures track you listed definitely feels more punchy to me, but it still has a bit of a mush feel vs what I would instinctually expect. Maybe it's all just more compressed than I naturally like?



I know what you mean, the impact doesn't have that punch to it that you might expect to hear for other genres or even to some other trailer tracks. If you've been listening to a lot of bass music it sounds kinda weird in comparison. This is mostly a stylistic difference between the genres and keep in mind that trailer music is heavily layered with a lot of sounds that have reverb or have a room sound too it which has much softer attack then a highly compressed and dry EDM kick or something where everything is side-chained to it. Listening to "RedShift" around 2:30 it's not too much different relatively speaking but I hear a bit more of a thwack or punch when it kicks in.


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## kenose (Nov 23, 2021)

Yeah, I agree about the moment you pointed out in We Are Gods— great track but it feels a bit light there given the lead up and everything.



Worth listening to it in context— you can hear how many other big hits/stinger elements are getting layered on top of the track. What a really great trailer track does, IMO, is provide momentum. A lot of times, high end trailers are not relying on the track for the giant stinger moments— those are almost always layered in SFX elements. (Or, like in this case, the track was finely customized to the fit trailer.)

From a mix perspective— as mentioned above a lot of it has to do with the sound sources having more "space" to them. Especially large orchestral percussion or taikos— those create tons of flub and decay, which you partially want because that's what creates the sense of "weight". When that hits a compressor though, you probably will lose a bit of punch.

Even the Kings and Creatures track I linked is set a bit further back in space compared to something like Noisia, where you have an extremely close, crisp and dry presentation of the percussion elements.


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## jcrosby (Nov 23, 2021)

maxiedaniels said:


> Hmm an example that I'm feeling like doesn't punch that much is Audiomachine - We Are Gods (when the first big section comes in, around 1:15 -
> 
> 
> It just feels kinda mushy and not punchy to me, but it landed the Black Window trailer, so I know I can't be correct. The Kings & Creatures track you listed definitely feels more punchy to me, but it still has a bit of a mush feel vs what I would instinctually expect. Maybe it's all just more compressed than I naturally like?



As others have already mentioned you have to realize that the music is not only designed to sit in a mix with sound design, it's also designed to sound pristine on a killer theatrical sound system.

We Are Gods was mixed by Greg Townley, one of the most sought after engineers in the genre. This is the guy who mixed trailers for Dune, Bladerunner, 1917, etc... (He also mixed Volturnous which featured Redshift linked above )...

Basically it sounds like you're listening with the 'expectations' you might have for pop, EDM, etc which is a different approach... As an example you can't really get away with a technique like sidechaining because tracks typically need to be available as both mixes and stems, and the stems need to sum up to be an identical version of the unmastered mix. If the stems had audible ducking printed to them no editor would touch them... So the sub becomes a really crucial area where you need to give priority to things like hits, booms, bass drops, etc.

Here's an interview Greg did with Output where he talks about mixing one of Audiomachine's tracks.


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## Pier (Nov 23, 2021)

I don't have anything to add... but wow it's fascinating how specialized trailer music has become. From the composition to the mixing.


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## RonOrchComp (Nov 23, 2021)

maxiedaniels said:


> Hmm an example that I'm feeling like doesn't punch that much is Audiomachine - We Are Gods (when the first big section comes in, around 1:15 -
> 
> 
> It just feels kinda mushy and not punchy to me, but it landed the Black Window trailer, so I know I can't be correct. The Kings & Creatures track you listed definitely feels more punchy to me, but it still has a bit of a mush feel vs what I would instinctually expect. Maybe it's all just more compressed than I naturally like?




I dunno - that sounds pretty punchy to me.


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## maxiedaniels (Nov 24, 2021)

Thank you for all the pointers! I did also just do a fresh listening test this morning, and part of my issue might be that I'm not listening loud enough to get the emotion - I just turned it up til everything felt big and that's actually about 83-85db for me, whereas I apparently usually listen at around 70-75db because I'm trying to avoid burning out my hearing.. *edit* Funny cause I just watched the Greg Townley video and he says he mixes VERY quietly hahahah...


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## Hunter123 (Nov 24, 2021)

maxiedaniels said:


> Thank you for all the pointers! I did also just do a fresh listening test this morning, and part of my issue might be that I'm not listening loud enough to get the emotion - I just turned it up til everything felt big and that's actually about 83-85db for me, whereas I apparently usually listen at around 70-75db because I'm trying to avoid burning out my hearing..


Maybe find a balance cause your right in that you really don't want to burn out your hearing. Honestly I would say that specific Audiomachine track was the exception not the rule in terms of trailer tracks having a punchy entrance when they kick in. This one below when the climax starts at 2:05 I think you would agree the way it's mixed has way more of a percussive punch when it comes in.


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## maxiedaniels (Nov 24, 2021)

Hunter123 said:


> Maybe find a balance cause your right in that you really don't want to burn out your hearing. Honestly I would say that specific Audiomachine track was the exception not the rule in terms of trailer tracks having a punchy entrance when they kick in. This one below when the climax starts at 2:05 I think you would agree the way it's mixed has way more of a percussive punch when it comes in.



Interesting, so I have a specific question about that track - when the 2:05 section starts, it feels like a bright impactful punch, but I find the weight of the sub hits in the intro (like, :22) feels much more significant. Is that how you perceive it too?


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## JyTy (Nov 24, 2021)

I'm just wrapping up this tutorial by Toby Manson on Evenant and there is some really great stuff on trailer music mixing in there: https://evenant.com/mixing-workshop-from-stems-to-final-master/

There is a good section on how to make the drums really punchy with the usage of Multiband compressor and via different mastering techniques. Would really recommend this one but there is heavy usage of FabFilter plugins in almost all of the videos!


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## Hunter123 (Nov 24, 2021)

maxiedaniels said:


> Interesting, so I have a specific question about that track - when the 2:05 section starts, it feels like a bright impactful punch, but I find the weight of the sub hits in the intro (like, :22) feels much more significant. Is that how you perceive it too?


I think it's just that since there isn't a full spectrum of frequencies happening at :22 (without all the layers ect) we can feel the low end as more impactful since it's more or less in isolation as compared to 2:05 when the full hit comes in all together with more high end ect. That low end impact and rumble is still present at 2:05 but when it's fully spectrum it makes it less noticeable since there is just more to pay attention to. It's alike a psychological trick, obfuscating the low end in a way. Also what are you listening through?


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## Soundlex (Nov 24, 2021)

2 things:
-Everything has to do with how busy the music is.
Pop music is all about making space for the kick. In the trailer world this is less of a moto.
Yes, you create space for the kick with some sidechain and frequency sculpting but it's not really a kick, it's an impact so you can't really expect an 808 sound and feel. You can't also sculpt the rest the epic arrangements as much as an Ariana Grande arrangement. Same with the sidechain, you can't make the orchestra duck like an EDM track. It would sound ridiculous.

-Trailer music is not about how dynamic everything is. It is all about a few specific impacts in the track. Period. If those are punchy like a Lady Gaga mix, then you are fine. Your drums can be a little muchy and not too punchy as long as your main impacts are very strong.


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## kenose (Nov 24, 2021)

maxiedaniels said:


> Interesting, so I have a specific question about that track - when the 2:05 section starts, it feels like a bright impactful punch, but I find the weight of the sub hits in the intro (like, :22) feels much more significant. Is that how you perceive it too?


The low end weight on that hit feels very solid to me, definitely not lacking. The early sub hits are more exposed but I don't hear them as being more significant.


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## jcrosby (Nov 24, 2021)

Pier said:


> I don't have anything to add... but wow it's fascinating how specialized trailer music has become. From the composition to the mixing.


Yeah it's a different world from say 20 years ago when every trailer featured the voice of Don LaFontaine  But the bulk of trailer albums aren't mixed by someone like Greg Townley, the bulk of projects you still wind up mixing yourself...

Albums like the ones originally mentioned though, where a label hires an orchestra or live players, then bring in an engineer like him are typically albums where the label is targeting high profile studios, trailers houses, etc.

But Greg Townley's credits are insane, he's worked on all kinds of stuff, not just trailers.


Credits | Greg Townley Producer – Mixer


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## Pier (Nov 24, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> the voice of Don LaFontaine


LOL always reminds me of this


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## kenose (Nov 24, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> Yeah it's a different world from say 20 years ago when every trailer featured the voice of Don LaFontaine  But the bulk of trailer albums aren't mixed by someone like Greg Townley, the bulk of projects you still wind up mixing yourself...
> 
> Albums like the ones originally mentioned though, where a label hires an orchestra or live players, then bring in an engineer like him are typically albums where the label is targeting high profile studios, trailers houses, etc.


Rob Beaton is another engineer my references folder is full of— love his work on Mark Petrie's Audionetwork stuff. 

Trailer music today is one of the most exciting genres to work in (to me at least.) You get to really flex the production and sound design to the max, and I feel there's a real openness to crazy ideas that isn't really too prevalent outside of cutting edge electronic/bass music. Always challenging work but I usually come away from those projects feeling pretty fulfilled.


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## MPortmann (Nov 24, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> As others have already mentioned you have to realize that the music is not only designed to sit in a mix with sound design, it's also designed to sound pristine on a killer theatrical sound system.
> 
> We Are Gods was mixed by Greg Townley, one of the most sought after engineers in the genre. This is the guy who mixed trailers for Dune, Bladerunner, 1917, etc... (He also mixed Volturnous which featured Redshift linked above )...
> 
> ...



True. And the mix has to sit with dialog too. Greg is the best. He has some instructional videos out there too which are informative.


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## jcrosby (Nov 24, 2021)

kenose said:


> Trailer music today is one of the most exciting genres to work in (to me at least.) You get to really flex the production and sound design to the max, and I feel there's a real openness to crazy ideas that isn't really too prevalent outside of cutting edge electronic/bass music. Always challenging work but I usually come away from those projects feeling pretty fulfilled.


I couldn't agree more. In just a short period of time every major genre of film has sprouted its own musical niche, and experimentation is encouraged (within the right parameters). For every stereotypical hallmark people associate with trailers like clocks, braams, pings, etc, there are just as many attempts to find something new that stands out.

Just like each subgenre of EDM has certain parameters that put a track in that subgrenre, the same rules apply to trailer tracks. It's got to play in the overall genre well, but at the same it needs to stand out as having something distinct.

If trailer music makes me think of any bass music genre in particular it's drum and bass. It borrows a lot of sound design philosophies from the genre, and while the genre sounds predictable from the outside, if you've listened to it for years you can see that it's gone through many iterations. Each iteration becoming its own subgenre, some branching off into new ones... (I'm biased toward drum and bass though )


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## José Herring (Nov 24, 2021)

maxiedaniels said:


> Hmm an example that I'm feeling like doesn't punch that much is Audiomachine - We Are Gods (when the first big section comes in, around 1:15 -
> 
> 
> It just feels kinda mushy and not punchy to me, but it landed the Black Window trailer, so I know I can't be correct. The Kings & Creatures track you listed definitely feels more punchy to me, but it still has a bit of a mush feel vs what I would instinctually expect. Maybe it's all just more compressed than I naturally like?



Dude that track is banging. 

I think the difference is that rather than "loudness" created by boosting the upper mids (drive) the impact is created with depth. Sounds with depth and space tend to hit harder in the gut region. Also, as some have probably mentioned (haven't read all the post) the music was intended to go to voice over. So kind of like the drums to Drake songs, they lack high so it doesn't interfere too much with the voice over so the "crack" gives way to more "boom". But in the audiomachine track there's some "crack" that makes its way in. 

But, I like it. You feel it in the gut rather than sandpaper in the ear.


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## Pier (Nov 24, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> If trailer music makes me think of any bass music genre in particular it's drum and bass. It borrows a lot of sound design philosophies from the genre, and while the genre sounds predictable from the outside, if you've listened to it for years you can see that it's gone through many different iterations. Each iteration becoming its own subgenre, some branching off into new ones... (I'm biased toward drum and bass though )


Oh yes.

From UK Apache to Goldie, LTJ Bukem, Roni Size, Noisia, Icycle... there's been a lot of innovation. Probably more than any other EDM genre.


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## Joël Dollié (Nov 24, 2021)

There's different styles of mix. If you want a punchy trailer here's a good one 

Although it's mostly the added sfx hits that are punchy. Not sure how the track was by itself.

Personally I like the driving drums to be a bit compressed but really have dynamic hits (and quite loud).

Not a fan of the overly squashed trailers, although the good thing about them is that they will be heard and still feel quite full even at quiet levels, due to the compression. So they can do their job of being a ''bed'' of music quite well.

There's also a stylistic choice to make. Tracks with more defined punchier things (and usually more high end) won't generally have as much ''back of the room depth'' like some of these audiomachine or 2wei tracks are. These mixes also generally keep more mid range which results in a technically muddier feel but you gain room size and depth from it. Listen to the wonder woman OST as there's sort of the same style of mix going on.

So as always it's a matter of choice, but there's no denying that tight punchy hits grab the attention. It also depends on the instrumentation. Trailer tracks that layer 1000 things will always sound less clear than tracks with only 40 or 50 carefully chosen sounds.

The way I see it is that by design, trailer music will be relatively flat in the macro dynamics (sticking to FF dynamics for the backend, consistent percussion, etc). Now the way to add dynamic interest to that bed of music is with the hits. And making sure that the bed of music is relatively clear sounding frequency response wise. But not every percussion sound has to be punchy. Roomy taikos will have a lot of trouble sounding punchy anyway unless you actually mess with the envelope, using multiband sidechain expansion or other tricks. So I would personally try to achieve my punchy dynamics with the hits and then when it comes to the rest, focusing more on achieving clarity in the mid range and low mids by carving with EQ.


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## thenorthernsounds (Jun 2, 2022)

Joël Dollié said:


> There's different styles of mix. If you want a punchy trailer here's a good one
> 
> Although it's mostly the added sfx hits that are punchy. Not sure how the track was by itself.
> 
> ...



Great input!!


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## samphony (Jun 2, 2022)

Pier said:


> Oh yes.
> 
> From UK Apache to Goldie, LTJ Bukem, Roni Size, Noisia, Icycle... there's been a lot of innovation. Probably more than any other EDM genre.


Especially if you look at how well evolved this genre is now referring to the likes of Grafix, Metrik, DC Breaks, Sub Focus, Wilkinson.


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## ZenBYD (Jun 4, 2022)

agreed that this is one of the most exciting genres at the moment. I think in the last decade there's been a real awareness of what generic trailer stuff sounds like, with a real desire to move away from it to stand out. also it's more common to have a trailer track written specifically for each cut now than in the past where they were comped from several different library tracks with booms and smashes added.

mix-impact wise... trailers will have mixes for cinema that are really tuned for that... surround and wider ranges - both volume and frequency... they might sound very lifeless on your AirPods but they will absolutely slam you in all the right places when you are in the theater. As always, keeping that dynamic range lively can make a huge difference to the experience - best way to make something loud is to have something quiet come before it.


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