# THE most annoying useless comments u had from directors, producers ..!



## Thonex (Jun 20, 2009)

The movie was already mixing at the mixing stage and my score was finished. I get a call telling me that a scene where no music was spotted (a dinner scene with idle chit chat) was in dire need of some score. 


Director: This scene needs some "psycho classical" music.

Me: Psycho classical?? I'm not sure I follow... are there any other words to describe what you are hearing?

Director: hmmmmmm... no. "psycho classical".... those are the words. 

Me: like Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D min? (as I asked I realized I was going WAY over the director's head).

Director: hmmmmmm...... no. Psycho classical... that's what I'm looking for.

Me: ok.. I'm not quite understanding what you mean by psycho classical... are there any movie scores you can point me to that would be an example of "psycho classical"?

Director: hmmmmmmmm.... no. 

Me: any classical pieces? 

Director: hmmmmmmmmm... no.

Me: any commercials or tv shows?

director: hmmmmmmmmm.... no.

me: Is there an example of music you have ever heard that you could point me to as an example of "psycho classical?"

Director (getting a little irritated): I tell you what... why don't you go to the music store and buy a bunch of music that you think might be psycho classical and I'll tell you if it is or not.

Me: ok... never mind... I'll figure it out....

I scored some quasi aleatoric piano music for the scene.. I deliver it to the mixing stage. The lead mixer has this look "dude... you have no idea..."

I call the next day to ask about how the cue worked out. The mixer said... "Oh.. we never even tried it. We put a Grand Father clock 'tic-toc ing' in the scene and the director said .... "That's it!!!! That's what I wanted!!!!". :lol:


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## artsoundz (Jun 21, 2009)

HAHAHAHA_both stories- perfect.

Her's mine. and TRUE as well. The following was for a tourist video- a video "postcard' of Seattle.

Director -"What I need from you is this-remember the first time you ordered delivery pizza? THATS what I want- when you opened the door to that first pizza-=that _smell_-that's what I want.

Me-"What? thin crust? thick crust? how many toppings? throw me a bone here! "

True story. He was a great guy and we became friends but I never discussed this with him.


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## Jaap (Jun 21, 2009)

Haha some good stories 

I posted mine a few days ago on the soundsonline forum as well in a similar topic, so the once reading also that forum, sorry for the shameless copy/paste, but it's kinda suited for here as well.

Did a few years ago the music for theatre version of Words and Music from Samual Beckett. The director was a very quiet and silent type and I really had to push him to find out what he wants.
I wrote the piece for 2 recorders, a cello, piano and clarinet. I figured out when he was nodding, he kinda disliked the music, so at one point he was nodding at a cello solo part and I asked him what he thought needs improvement.
Suddenly totally out of the blue he asked: does your wife makes a noise when she has an orgasm?
Totally stumbled by the question I answered something like "yeah, but that's none of your business" and he answered me: "that is true, but I actually want that kind of moaning out of the cello"

Sul ponticello and some glissandi did the trick afterwards :mrgreen: 

Later in my carreer I have heard some odd directions and stuff as well, but this one still beats it in my own carreer.


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## IvanP (Jun 21, 2009)

How about this one:

Director: I need some sound Fx here (I was doing music and a few sounds for a Tv show)

Me: Sure, what's on your mind. 

D: I want the sound of the Void before you hit a ball when playing billiards. 

Me: ehh you want a sucking sound? Like sssssssht pack!

D: No. I want the Void.

Me: Then only the Shhhht!

D: NO. THE VOID. 

Me: Ok....got him some snooker hits.

D: No. That's not it. Never mind.

Got paid but We never worked again.


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## autopilot (Jun 21, 2009)

I gave a direction that a guitarist friend of mine says is his favourite direction..

"Now onstage, a guy is getting raped anally with a broken bottle ... go"

Hit record.

Nailed.


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## Ed (Jun 21, 2009)

Oh man these stories. hahaha.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 21, 2009)

This is regarding a contemporary romantic comedy.

Female Producer: "Waht instruments will you be using?"

Me: Mostly woodwinds, strings, and rhythm section."

Producer: " I don't like woodwinds, could you please not use them? You could use a solo violin. I like violin. My father played the violin."


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## midphase (Jun 21, 2009)

Even?


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## Niah (Jun 21, 2009)

Justus @ Sun Jun 21 said:


> Ashermusic @ Sun Jun 21 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't like woodwinds, could you please not use them?
> ...



Anyone can be an asshole.

Why Asher mentioned the producer's genre while telling the story is beyond me and unnecessary. It's the type of thing that can lead to certain not so nice comments. I was going to let it slide thinking that it would not be the case, but I guess not... 8)


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## Ashermusic (Jun 21, 2009)

Niah @ Sun Jun 21 said:


> Justus @ Sun Jun 21 said:
> 
> 
> > Ashermusic @ Sun Jun 21 said:
> ...



Reverse sexism on my part. In general, I have found the women that I have worked with less likely to be assholes.


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## Hal (Jun 21, 2009)

this situation is extreme too..
a couple of months ago
i had this huge project where i discovered that all the producers where girls
(no offence) i just remembered because of the girls thing.
so i came into the agency meeting room and i found a meeting table with 4 producers and 1 director all girls the only guys was the editor and the assistant director who left the production meeting anyway.

so the 5 start talking to me about the music for half an hour
i can tell you that each girl had a word to say and they all waisted more then half an hour talking about music and what they want,the surprise is they all said different contradicting stuff and i kept looking for a clue,till i said to myself am going no where with that.
so i said
- ok "guys" stop pls because i want to sum up everything u said before i leave to see if i understand you correctly..
(me trying to give them a polite hint of the total non sens talk and waist of time that is happening)

so i say
this is every thing u said in brief
the music should be electro,acoustic,trancy,chillout,fast tempo,no synthesizer with an arabic flavor and an RnB beat,and it should match the visual that you do not have yet and it should be a 45 seconds AM I RIGHT ?!

the girls: Exactly !!!! except that it should be in 30 sec !!

i was like DAAAAMN ur serious right ?

girls talking seriously: when do you think u could finish this,they told us you are fast we want it tonight.

*and this is the best part*

we want it tonight you know just a demo before u record the orchestra !!!!!!!!!!

-orchestra ????! >8o


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## choc0thrax (Jun 21, 2009)

kid-surf @ Sun Jun 21 said:


> BTW -- clearly there are anomalies. Like the woman, Kathryn Bigelow, who directed The Hurt Locker. Talking generalities here. I believe there are times the disconnect is innate.



Have you seen The Hurt Locker? Best movie I've seen this year. Strange that it was a woman directing that but then again when you've been married to James Cameron I guess his talent rubs off on you.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Jun 21, 2009)

choc0thrax @ Sun Jun 21 said:


> kid-surf @ Sun Jun 21 said:
> 
> 
> > BTW -- clearly there are anomalies. Like the woman, Kathryn Bigelow, who directed The Hurt Locker. Talking generalities here. I believe there are times the disconnect is innate.
> ...



Living up to your nitwit status, as always ... :roll:


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## NYC Composer (Jun 21, 2009)

I've got about a thousand, but here are two...

I was doing demos for Charmin' bathroom tissue-

Example#1-Producer...'We want the music to be thick and plush, yet light and airy'

while doing a short film-

Example#2--Art Director-"I don't speak music well....can you make it more, umm..orange?'

Me- 'How do you think of orange in a musical sense?'

AD-'I really don't know.'

Me-'is it like, warmer maybe, hotter?'

AD- 'I'm sorry, I just don't know'

.


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## bryla (Jun 22, 2009)

NYC, it's normal for artist to refer to things in colors. Even Elvin Jones did it. Many people do.


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## artsoundz (Jun 22, 2009)

I think you've missed the point, Bryla. It's the fact that even he(the Ad) couldn't add anything to his 'orange" comment. As if it was the fashionable thing to say-probably something he heard someone else to say and was trying to be impressive-. this from an art director? useless 

Elvin Jones could explain in depth what colors meant to him, I'm sure.


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## Hal (Jun 22, 2009)

artsoundz @ Mon Jun 22 said:


> (the Ad) couldn't add anything to his 'orange" comment. As if it was the fashionable thing to say-probably something he heard someone else to say and was trying to be impressive-. this from an art director? useless
> 
> .



Exactly

unless u compose Orange music frequently Bryla :wink:


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## germancomponist (Jun 22, 2009)

Orange, blue and red, 

all happend to me when I produced "schlager" in Germany some years ago.


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## Markus S (Jun 22, 2009)

..something like :

Me : Can you give me an example of what you are looking for?

Dir : Do you know the film .. the music that is played in the introduction..

Me : Yes, I know that.

Dir : That's not at all what we are looking for, but for this film it was the right choice. See?

Me : erm..


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## Hal (Jun 22, 2009)

Markus S @ Mon Jun 22 said:


> ..something like :
> 
> Me : Can you give me an example of what you are looking for?
> 
> ...



HAHA same here

my last movie..

while presenting the theme

D: u know the music for the god father
ME: yes
D:BLack hawk down ?
Me: yes but u know this r two different diredction what is it exactly you want i see no relation,do u want it to sound like any of them
D:NO 

Damn why do they do that !?


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## poseur (Jun 22, 2009)

artsoundz @ Mon Jun 22 said:


> I think you've missed the point, Bryla. It's the fact that even he(the Ad) couldn't add anything to his 'orange" comment. As if it was the fashionable thing to say-probably something he heard someone else to say and was trying to be impressive-. this from an art director? useless
> 
> Elvin Jones could explain in depth what colors meant to him, I'm sure.


i was immensely fortunate to have known elvin
--- one of my all-time favoritest musicians ---
and he certainly could do so..... quite well, and articulately.

otoh:
i kinda like when emotionally-tuned directors use colors in their explanations,
so long as they're specific enough 
--- not "willy-nilly" ---
for me to use as a _part_ of my understanding.

but, there's a way, i've found,
around the sides of this "can you give me a musical example" paradigm,
esp. since the musical examples offered can further confound my understanding of what is actually wanted (not to mention how it can severely limit my "creative" reach);
i simply ask the director/producer to describe for me what it is 
that they expect the audience to FEEL in the given scene (or, whatever),
which generally seems to spur a revealing creative discussion.
it can help; o+ Kontakt 2.2.1, K2 constantly crashing (4) machinesaThanks for the ideas.

The buff


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## NYC Composer (Jun 22, 2009)

hey, if he'd been able to articulate ANYTHING about what 'orange' meant to him, I'd have been all over it like white on rice.


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## gamalataki (Jun 22, 2009)

poseur @ Mon Jun 22 said:


> i was immensely fortunate to have known elvin
> --- one of my all-time favoritest musicians ---
> and he certainly could do so..... quite well, and articulately.


Ditto that! While I didn't know Elvin, I did talk to him and Keiko extensively on two occasions.

The man was adept at interpreting and painting a picture with ANY color.

It's refreshing just to see his name mentioned here.

Note to self: Get rid of that silly 4/4 avatar, find something more polyrhythmic.

I've worked with directors/producers both musically inarticulate and with degrees in music and it's just part of the gig to try to find a common language.
I'm imagining a bunch of directors sitting around discussing the most useless interpretive music submitted by a composer. ~o)


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## bryla (Jun 22, 2009)

sorry for bringing in EJ in to this, I missed the point, that the director couldn't articulate 'orange', and just wanted to sound smart. 

However, if it happens to you again, just make the cues ONLY with Orange Tree Samples 

To me, the colour of the plug-in GUI defines the colours associated with it ...... :D


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## NYC Composer (Jun 22, 2009)

gamalataki @ Mon Jun 22 said:


> poseur @ Mon Jun 22 said:
> 
> 
> > i was immensely fortunate to have known elvin
> ...



And if they want to have a thread on their websites doing so, that's their prerogative  

That's IF they gave a moment's thought to music before they desperately needed something scored....


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## artsoundz (Jun 22, 2009)

bryla @ Mon Jun 22 said:


> sorry for bringing in EJ in to this, I missed the point, that the director couldn't articulate 'orange', and just wanted to sound smart.
> 
> However, if it happens to you again, just make the cues ONLY with Orange Tree Samples
> 
> To me, the colour of the plug-in GUI defines the colours associated with it ...... :D



funny- that would actually work, I think. : )


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## poseur (Jun 22, 2009)

NYC Composer @ Mon Jun 22 said:


> That's IF they gave a moment's thought to music before they desperately needed something scored....


ah, to escape the confines of "director 101", eh?
sometimes we do get lucky, or choose well, or whatever.....
occasionally, the "director 101"-type scenario can become very, very positive,
given attention to chemistry & communication from both the director & the 'poser.
no?

d


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## JohnG (Jun 22, 2009)

These days independent / newcomer directed films need to take chances (and often do) and the music needs to go out on a limb as well, if only to try punching through the din of what's already on offer.

Without a temp map, communication is certainly more difficult, and one can end up rewriting, sometimes substantially. Given our deadlines, this is hard to stomach. On the other hand, working without a temp allows one the chance to play with ideas that one hasn't necessarily heard beaten to death before. 

Plus, it's good for one's career. People are never going to fall in love with someone who does a good imitation of someone else's art; to generate loyalty, one has to be original, and these "new-guy" projects practically invite one to take the kinds of chances that can work well that way.

Of course sometimes the new guys also temp too, and one gets stuck with a box that seems immovable, so naturally one doesn't have infinite latitude.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 22, 2009)

And of course, the single most annoying and useless comment a producer or director can make:
"We've decided to go with another composer."


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## Ed (Jun 23, 2009)

choc0thrax @ Sun Jun 21 said:


> Have you seen The Hurt Locker? Best movie I've seen this year. Strange that it was a woman directing that but then again when you've been married to James Cameron I guess his talent rubs off on you.


You win the innuendo prize!


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## NYC Composer (Jun 23, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Mon Jun 22 said:


> And of course, the single most annoying and useless comment a producer or director can make:
> "We've decided to go with another composer."



Classic point, but you're killing my buzz,man.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 23, 2009)

JohnG @ Mon Jun 22 said:


> These days independent / newcomer directed films need to take chances (and often do) and the music needs to go out on a limb as well, if only to try punching through the din of what's already on offer.
> 
> Without a temp map, communication is certainly more difficult, and one can end up rewriting, sometimes substantially. Given our deadlines, this is hard to stomach. On the other hand, working without a temp allows one the chance to play with ideas that one hasn't necessarily heard beaten to death before.
> 
> ...



Yes, yes, well put, very thoughtful and erudite, but where's your humorous example that brightens my day?? Title of thread ain't 'Pedanticism 'r Us'! sheesh.


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## kid-surf (Jun 24, 2009)

Choc0 -- haven't seen it. I'm interested if it's a morality tale. There needs to be more films about how we don't always win, that sometimes men make choices that lead them to fail themselves (there's the arc, the lesson)...instead of always "conquering the world against all odds while beating their chest". Is it that?


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## billval3 (Jun 24, 2009)

poseur @ Mon Jun 22 said:


> otoh:
> i kinda like when emotionally-tuned directors use colors in their explanations,
> so long as they're specific enough
> --- not "willy-nilly" ---
> ...



Sounds like good advice. Thanks, Poseur.


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## Hal (Jun 24, 2009)

Here is the funny part,in this story where i waisted an hour in the meeting trying to inderstand there non sens i asked for a music example.
so they looked to each other and..
- should we give him a music example ? which one should he listen to-yeah show him the one we liked yesterday

?????

this is Sooo annoying,there is a freakin DAMN reference in the project why dont you just make it easier and simpler for everybody and use it stupid producers why do you keep on speaking ORANGE while you could use a guide !


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## midphase (Jun 24, 2009)

I agree, I think temp tracks can be an excellent way for directors to communicate in an idiot that they're not familiar with. It's like when I go get a haircut...it helps a great deal if I show up there with a magazine cutout of someone with a haircut that I want.


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## kid-surf (Jun 24, 2009)

JohnG @ Mon Jun 22 said:


> These days independent / newcomer directed films need to take chances (and often do) and the music needs to go out on a limb as well, if only to try punching through the din of what's already on offer.
> 
> Without a temp map, communication is certainly more difficult, and one can end up rewriting, sometimes substantially. Given our deadlines, this is hard to stomach. On the other hand, working without a temp allows one the chance to play with ideas that one hasn't necessarily heard beaten to death before.
> 
> ...




+1


I like the way you think...


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## kid-surf (Jun 24, 2009)

poseur @ Mon Jun 22 said:


> otoh:
> i kinda like when emotionally-tuned directors use colors in their explanations,
> so long as they're specific enough
> --- not "willy-nilly" ---
> ...




Yes...and a director really should know to do this. After all, that's what story is, manipulating an audience to feel a certain way. We fail when we did not get them to feel what we had intended. 

Sometimes (with esoteric films) one catches a lucky break in which the audience FEELS emotions the writer/director hadn't deciphered in their own work...but I wouldn't count on that happening more than once a career. And certainly not on a studio film, regardless.


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## synthetic (Jun 24, 2009)

Haircut picture is a GREAT example. 

(Especially if the producer is Jon Peters.)


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## Adamich (Jun 29, 2009)

Im relatively new to freelance composing (still in college for classical composition), only have had a few handfuls of gigs.

Though two clients had a very similar yet annoying visions. They were both for fantasy soundtracks for indie games. 

Me: Could you give me some insight on the music for the last couple levels?
Dev: Sure, sure, I want something like this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDC36dRPkCA&feature=related
Me: ...I'll see what I can do

So I wrote some remote control-esque pieces and he loved them.


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## Hal (Jun 29, 2009)

at least he gave you a direction..
i wish he didnt LOL i coudnt finish 15 seconds


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## Adamich (Aug 10, 2009)

Him:Don (my name is jon),
I like the bulk of it, but was are those noises at the end?
Me:Jason,
Sounds good, but can you be more specific regarding "noise" as there are over 90 instances playing.
Him:Its like a dinosuar pitch
Me:hmmm...ok, i take it is the violin glissando. I attached a audio file for your hearing
Him:yep, thats it.
Me:Alright, heres the updated version without the glissando's.
Him (this is true): it sounds like the violin glissando is still in there. yep i hear it. replace that with a drum beat.


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## Hannes_F (Aug 11, 2009)

Adamich @ Tue Aug 11 said:


> Him:Don (my name is jon),
> I like the bulk of it, but was are those noises at the end?
> Me:Jason,
> Sounds good, but can you be more specific regarding "noise" as there are over 90 instances playing.
> ...



Haha. Maybe use skype?


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## Stevie (Aug 11, 2009)

Well, as funny all those stories are... 
How can we educate such people?
I mean, it's amateurs who have clearly no
sense for music.
It's like someone going to Picasso and saying:
"man the faces don't look real, what did you do?
It looks awful!"


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## Hannes_F (Aug 11, 2009)

Stevie @ Tue Aug 11 said:


> Well, as funny all those stories are...
> How can we educate such people?
> I mean, it's amateurs who have clearly no
> sense for music.
> ...



Actually yes and no (IMO). Perhaps directors should be free to express what they want in whatever words they like, be it an avocado or orange dinosaur noise, and it is the composer's task to translate that into musical language.

It's funny but I think I know what is meant by "the nothing before a billiard hit", and it is actually a quite good description if it is what I have in mind.


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## nikolas (Aug 11, 2009)

I think that it's one of those 'special' things that nobody teaches and is what makes a composer successful or not: Communication skills, regardless of how moronic the other end seems, are essential. There's no need for education, only because they ARE the client! 

Other than that in terms of audience, not client, I agree fully with Stevie, and I think that the audience should be educated AND trained... but this is another story.

No story to tell from me really. Everything is smooth thus far!


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## Stevie (Aug 11, 2009)

And even if they are not educated... I could live with that. But I can't stand it when people say things like:

"What's that funny organ sound? Oh it's a trumpet? Well remove it! It doesn't sound good".

Then you go:
"Well, what exactly is it. Is it the sound you don't like or is the melody part?"

Mostly they can't answer that. So you start over
with a new approach to find out later, that the 
melody was fine. It was just the tone of instrument.

I don't mind for musically uneducated clients.
But I assume some minimal confidence in my skills as a composer. 

I can live with it when the client says: "ah, that's not exactly the direction I wanted to go. It's too happy and cheerful. Let some small amount of sadness shine thru."
That's a description you would use, to describe the impact the music has on you personally. No musical education needed.

But things like I mentioned above are just tedious.


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## Ed (Aug 11, 2009)

Stevie @ Tue Aug 11 said:


> Well, as funny all those stories are...
> How can we educate such people?
> I mean, it's amateurs who have clearly no
> sense for music.
> ...



For the people referenced in this thread I doubt there is hope of educating them! It seems a common sense issue rather than music knowledge. :D


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## Stevie (Aug 11, 2009)

LOL, yeah.
But then again, if I dunno shit, how do I behave? RIGHT, I'm humble!


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## Lunatique (Aug 20, 2009)

Well, just remember that the flip-side of the coin is directors/producers who are musicians themselves, and they dictate exactly the instrumentation, tempo, style...etc. Then you guys will complain that you have no freedom.


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## Stevie (Aug 21, 2009)

TBH, I would refuse to work with such a director. If he's musicians he can his own soundtrack.


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## Hal (Aug 21, 2009)

yeah but this one will be cool to work with at least there will be a language to use and directions to give,if he tells you change the guitar with piano and use an acoustic bass instead of that freatless,i would be happy instead of talking orange and dinosaurs pitch and leave you wonder and waist you working time in understanding what could ve been said in seconds !


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## Ed (Aug 21, 2009)

Lunatique @ Thu Aug 20 said:


> Well, just remember that the flip-side of the coin is directors/producers who are musicians themselves, and they dictate exactly the instrumentation, tempo, style...etc. Then you guys will complain that you have no freedom.



But you dont have any freedom with directors that dont know what they want and cant communicate what they want_ (it must be like the first time you had sex, but orange! With guitars and orchestras but also tranditional and remind you slightly of Sarah Palin)_


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## Stevie (Aug 21, 2009)

Hal @ Fri Aug 21 said:


> yeah but this one will be cool to work with at least there will be a language to use and directions to give,if he tells you change the guitar with piano and use an acoustic bass instead of that freatless,i would be happy instead of talking orange and dinosaurs pitch and leave you wonder and waist you working time in understanding what could ve been said in seconds !



I agree, this, of course, all depends on the director... if he's rather the dictator/control type of guy or the "hey, try out this maybe"-guy.


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## Ethos (Aug 21, 2009)

Here's mine from last month. I was writing a little 60-second TV spot for a regional commercial. It was (American) football-themed. My first pass was a typical "NFL Films" style piece that sounded pretty cool. 

director: No.... we all hate this. We're thinking more of an "Eye of the Tiger" feel.

This is the 3rd time in the last 2 years someone has told me they want Eye of the Tiger. So I instantly knew what they wanted. I begrudgingly wrote a very cheesy hard rock vamp.

director: No... we wanted more sounds of clapping and cheering.

me: Uhhhh... well, okay do you have a sound designer or mixer who will be adding post sound effects?

director: No.... you do it. 

I add some stupid sounds.

director: No, no, no... we want less music... more cheering.

me: Okay... well I'm not really a sound effects guy.

[long story short]

The commercial aired with lots of cheering sounds and no music.


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## Thonex (Aug 21, 2009)

Logicology @ Fri Aug 21 said:


> The commercial aired with lots of cheering sounds and no music.



Hopefully you were able to mix the music reeeaallly low and still claim union residuals for commercial airplay :wink:


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