# Your Notation Software?



## Peter Stallo

So, I've used Finale for notation for a while and I find it to be a pain. I'm constantly Googling how to do something or fix a jam I've gotten myself into.

The videos for Dorico look cool, but is it worth it? (I use Cubase and Nuendo, so thought it might lead to a smoother workflow down the road)

Is Sibelius better? Is ANYTHING better? I know Finale can handle complex scenarios, but something has to be faster and easier.


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## SimonCharlesHanna

You'll have to google how to do something with any of the programs. None of them are overly intuitive. 

I switched from Sibelius to Dorico recently and I am quite happy for it.


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## SoNowWhat?

If there's a discussion around notation programs I'll just mention MuseScore which is a free option. 
Now, the reality for me is that I don't use or need notation much at the moment but so far MuseScore has met my needs. If you need heavy notation functions maybe it won't suit you, but maybe it will.


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## micrologus

+ 1 Musescore.


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## ABalvin

Long time Finale user here. I love it. But had to learn to use Sibelius the last couple of years due to a lot of people in LA using it for Scoring Sessions. I can say i know how to use both equally. Both are great. Both have its flaws too. If you want something more intuitive, probably Sibelius is the way to go.

As far as Dorico, I am also a Cubase user, always wanted to jump in, but haven't yet. Because it was kind of new, but now has solved a lot of issues it had before and added tons of more features; it looks fantastic as far as i can tell. Probably gonna jump into it by the end of the year.

My advise would be, if you are working mostly on your own. Give Dorico a try, they were the ones that developed Sibelius at first, but got hired by Steinberg after Avid threw them out. So it's definitely an amazing piece of software looking to the future. BUT if you want to, or are working in teams with other composers, orchestrators or copyists, probably you wanna stay in Finale or Sibelius for now (maybe a few more years, until Dorico becomes a standard) because sending files to other composers, orchestrating or other types of jobs really requires you to do it in the software the whole team uses. And if you already know Finale, then adding Sibelius to your arsenal makes you valuable for teams of orchestrators or other similar jobs.
But as I said, If most of the time you are working on your own. I would give Dorico a try.


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## Benjamin Duk

I recently tried all the Notation programs and nothing comes close to Dorico for ease of use and features. Every other program I tried felt like something from the past with old work flows and bad menus (Sibelius). Just save yourself the pain and use Dorico :D

I guarantee you it will be faster and easier for you.

I wrote a mockup in Dorico and then tried doing the same in Sibelius and it just felt so backwards and long winded. With Dorico it feels like the developers care about the App and adding new features to make it better, where as some other apps just feel stagnant.


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## Vik

I bought Finale some years ago, and didn't like it much. Just when I had decided to buy Sibelius (circa 7 years ago), Steinberg took over the Sibelius team, so I decided to wait for Dorico, and bought Dorico when it was launched as 'thew new standard' - but it was lacking many essential functions.

There was some good stuff in there, of course, but also, IMO, too many basic things missing and some workflow decisions I didn't at all agree with. It wasn't possible to customise Dorico to a workflow I would be comfortable with, and when I saw how many steps that's needed to change key commands, I kind of lost interest in Dorico and stopped updating it. Not so much because of the cumbersome key command assignment process, but because I realised that when such a bad workflow was created and approved by whoever approves Dorico changes in Steinberg, this won't be a programI'm going to be happy with for a while. But if I was an engraver or if notation was more important to me than making music, I would probably have used Dorico today. I guess I simply dislike the idea that notation and music creation (DAW functions) should be separated into two different programs. If Steinberg, Avid, Apple or someone else makes a program that's both a pro, good DAW and a pro, good score program, I'll switch immediately - if the workflow is up to what people expect to see in modern user friendly apps.

After the disappointment with Dorico I checked with Avid if they had a Dorico/Sibelius crossgrade offer, but they didn't. I still follow news about Dorico updates, but I'm kind of worried that it will take very long before most of the stuff they have said they'll implement in 'due course' will be implemented.
Sorry for sounding discouraging – all I actually wanted to write was that before you switch to Dorico, make sure it's better in the areas _that are important for you_. General advice can be useful, but as always - the truth is in the details.


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## Benjamin Duk

Dorico 2.0 has come a long way from it's initial release.


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## Solarsentinel

+1 for Musescore, free and practical.


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## Vik

Benjamin Duk said:


> Dorico 2.0 has come a long way from it's initial release.


I know, but my frustration with Dorico was both about missing functions and the overall concept. 

First of all, when having the privilege of being able to create a new score app from scratch, it's IMO immensely important not only to make sure one starts out with implement functions in a way which is as easy to users possible (few steps etc), but also that they are easy to discover. I have both Cubase and Logic, and one thing I really like about Logic is that they seem to have decided that pretty much all actions should be doable with all the three main 'tools' we have: key commands, menu options (including contextual menus) and with a mouse. This is important for everybody except maybe those who will spend most if their time in this app – they can always memorise workflow solutions even if they are hard to find. There should also be built in help functions, both simple, short explanations and good ways to find the relevant sections in the manual (from within the app itself). 

But Dorico, in spite of being the newest and most modern score editor out there, at least for now, doesn't have these things. I constantly tried to right click or click with a modifier to get access to contextual menus without finding them where I expected them. Certain essential things simply wasn't possible to do with a mouse - which would be very useful for someone who has Dorico and an additional app. Many key commands I have been using for years just don't have any equivalents in Dorico. 

Don't get me wrong, the results look great and Dorico certainly also have some really good functionality. But the development in areas that are important to me is slow, and several of the functions I liked Sibelius for still isn't in there - neither are they replaced by something better.


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## Benjamin Duk

I think the issue comes from me being a new user to Notation programs so I don't have a preference of how things work. I'm originally a 3d animator by trade so I know that people can get used to how things work even if they are bad in terms of workflow. Like Zbrush for example. The absolute worst UI in the world but people got used to it.

So I'm not saying your workflow or your preference is wrong. I'm just coming from a place of a new user and from what I feel in terms of pure Workflow it feels like every other notation App does things in a convoluted way. That's just my experience learning apps from scratch. So once again not saying you're wrong, just my experience. The ex developers of Sibelius actually went to Dorico.


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## d.healey

I use musescore


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## Saxer

A notation app is not a DAW. The closest connection between notation and DAW has Logic Pro X. I made all my notation for years with it. But even in Logic the mockup and the notation of the same peace is a complete different task. Either it sounds good or it looks good and readable. Depending on the initial start I had to split projects at one point into the printing and into the mockup project.
Lately I switched from Logic to Dorico for the pure notation jobs. It's a great time saver once the learning curve has left the ground. I use Noteperformer for audio control and it works good (enough) for scoring tasks. It makes a lot of mockups obsolete. And the better mockup work is still done in Logic.


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## Benjamin Duk

I just wish there was better integration of Dorico with Cubase. Would be great if you could link tracks together so if you make a change in the midi in Cubase it reflects on the linked track in Dorico and vise versa without having to export and import midi.


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## JF

Notion is the easiest to use imo.


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## Ben

(IMO) I used Sibelius for a long time and have done a lot with it (templates, complex scripts, custom fonts and symbols). It is far better then working with Finale, but still is such a pain to work with it. As long as the updates had significant improvements, I had hopes that things will get better. But after v7 and the change in the licensing-model I have given up. 
I switched to Dorico and it is so much better: the results are so much better looking, easier to handle and the master page system is supirior to other software. I'm still waiting for TAB support and hope it will come with v3.


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## JJP

Peter Stallo said:


> Is Sibelius better? Is ANYTHING better? I know Finale can handle complex scenarios, but something has to be faster and easier.


A part of the answer to your question will be how you use the program. I use Finale, but then I work as a professional orchestrator and copyist and supervise teams of copyists on larger projects. We don't find anything else matches Finale specifically for our uses. Dorico may change that someday, but it's not there yet.

However, for a lot of people who aren't doing the kind of work that I do, Dorico may be fine at this point.

Sibelius is also a fine program, but doesn't match my needs. Plus I also have some mild personal concerns about the longevity of the platform. However, that concern is not shared with all other professionals.

As the saying goes, "Your mileage may vary." There are demos and basic versions of these programs. I'd encourage you to see what works best for you.


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## JT

Like JJP, I'm a copyist/orchestrator, but in the midwest. FInale is the tool that I'm expected to use 99% of the time. In the last 10 years,I can only remember 2 jobs where I was asked to use Sibelius.

That being said, if you're going to be working or collaborating with others, it helps if everyone is on the same software. If you're on your own, I would try each demo and see what feels best for you.


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## VinRice

Dorico


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## JohnG

Peter Stallo said:


> So, I've used Finale for notation for a while and I find it to be a pain.



And so are they all.



JJP said:


> A part of the answer to your question will be how you use the program. I use Finale, but then I work as a professional orchestrator and copyist and supervise teams of copyists on larger projects. We don't find anything else matches Finale specifically for our uses. Dorico may change that someday, but it's not there yet.



That's what I keep hearing about Dorico: "not yet."

If you have to work with copyists or even an orchestrator who's going to finish putting all the dots in, they all know Finale and Sibelius, so I would choose one of those.



JT said:


> That being said, if you're going to be working or collaborating with others, it helps if everyone is on the same software. If you're on your own, I would try each demo and see what feels best for you.



good advice ^^


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## Rick McGuire

I've only seriously used Sibelius the past 10 years. I feel like it was easy enough to learn but it's definitely not without its flaws. Doing common tasks such as creating tempo changes sometimes makes me question how much the Sibelius team actually spends using their app. I do think it's easier to learn than Finale. I tried Dorico a few months back because it was supposed to be more intuitive than Sibelius, and in many ways it is. I think it has a long way to go, but I love how it streamlines the process (write, engrave, print, etc.)

Once you know the hotkeys for any scoring app everything else becomes irrelevant imho.


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## TimCox

I used Notion for years and it was hands down the easiest to learn, I can't speak for Notion after Presonus bought them out. I currently use Dorico, it's as easy to use as the first generation of Notion with more capabilities and functionality (and I can use my VI's with it, which is huge).


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## ulrik

Coming from using Igor Engraver and Sibelius I now use Dorico!


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## novicecomposer

Musescore was pretty good until I found that it won't recognize the sustain pedal. No idea when they are going to support it. So if you want to play while composing a piano piece, for example, you'll need to open another DAW, which makes your configuration complicated -- two midi keyboards, audio interfaces, switching between the two back and forth, etc.

Sibelius has such a fucking messy interface. They use the ribbon interface, etc. A plus side is that it's easier to learn in the beginning than Finale.

I might try Dorico v8.0 in the future. It's probably got lots of missing features and bugs now. If they have Cubase+Dorico in one program some day I won't think twice but buy one.


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## Rob

Finale user since 2002 but also got Sibelius, Dorico, Notion, Overture and more... for my daily job as copyist, proofreader etc still Finale is the one... occasionally Sibelius, but very rare.


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## Murafaire

I use Guitar Pro 5 lol


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## Ashermusic

Logic Pro score editor, since 1.0, and before that Atari Notator SL, created by the same people.


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## Michael Antrum

Was on Sibelius - now switched to Dorico and using it with a Stream Deck XL and the excellent Notation Express template from NYC Music Services.

It's a really tight little solution - I can't recommend this strongly enough.

https://www.nycmusicservices.com/notation-express/


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## Sears Poncho

Sibelius. Use it many hours a day.

I'm no fan of Avid. That said, I hadn't updated in several years and just did. And I am very glad I did. The multi-edit stuff is a huge time saver. Improvements have been slow perhaps, but for what I do (orchestrations for Symphonies) it's still pays the rent, and this latest version is quite nice.


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## kitekrazy

Notation programs are like being a battered spouse. No matter how you hate one you seem to go back to them. I have Finale 25 and I have odd issues with it between 2 machines. Of course if you go to their forums for support the fanboys will tell you it's you and not the software. Do they still come out with a new version every year? My 32 bit versions of 2009 are fr more stable. Plus they also went back on their pdf score import which I really needed for transposing hymns. I also have Notion but being accustomed to using Finale going back to the turn of the century it's so hard to switch. Has anyone tried Forte? Overture?


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## Leon Portelance

Ashermusic said:


> Logic Pro score editor, since 1.0, and before that Atari Notator SL, created by the same people.



Exactly the same exp.


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## Sears Poncho

Being a baby boomer, my eyes ain't like they used to be. Sibelius looks great on my new monitor. I don't know if it's the new monitor or the newly updated Sibelius, but it looks fantastic. I hide the ribbon, use hotkeys and I have the entire screen. No tools to clutter the screen. I was getting a little nervous because things were getting pretty blurry, but I can see again.


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## trumpoz

I'm a Sibelius user.

After seeing a video on Tim Davies' setup controlling Finale/Digital Performer using an iPad and OSC I set about doing the same with Sibelius...... up to 16 keystrokes using one button on an iPad (it was to explode a 5-part sax line on one stave to 5 separate staves). It was a massive effort to set it all up....no OSC implementation so I used midi messages, translator software in between, creating additional shortcuts in Sibelius, but it was a real time saver for me in the end. I then did a fresh install of my OS and all software to realise that I hadn't backed up the shortcuts file or setup file in the midi translator 

If you are willing to put the effort in, any notation software should be more intuitive with custom controllers.


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## Rodney Money

I’m a Finale guy since 1999.


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## mikeh-375

Sibelius 8 with no subscription here.
I've been a Mac guy all my career but a year ago took the plunge and bought a windows laptop with a touch screen and pen for Sibelius. It works a treat and the pen has made such a big improved difference to the workflow - I love it, it makes the inputting pleasurable.


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## devonmyles

Michael Antrum said:


> Was on Sibelius - now switched to Dorico and using it with a Stream Deck XL and the excellent Notation Express template from NYC Music Services.
> 
> It's a really tight little solution - I can't recommend this strongly enough.
> 
> https://www.nycmusicservices.com/notation-express/



Ah, man...Thanks for the heads up. This looks great and just the thing for me and Dorico.


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## andrzejmakal

Sibelius

cheers


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## Sears Poncho

The latest Sibelius update is nice. Ties into second endings finally (yay), a new "auto-optimize" feature which corrects spacing as you go. 

Does anybody use the Stream Deck with Sibelius?


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## sbarrettmusic

Sears Poncho said:


> Does anybody use the Stream Deck with Sibelius?



I do. Not the Notation Express or whatever it's called that you can purchase, though. I made my own custom profile customized to what I need. It has improved my workflow incredibly! Everything I need to do is either a key command or a few taps away on the Stream Deck. Before I got the Stream Deck I was using TouchOSC, inspired by Tim Davies, but what I love even more with the Stream Deck is that it is more compact, you can create custom icons and organize things into folders.


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## Sears Poncho

sbarrettmusic said:


> I do. Not the Notation Express or whatever it's called that you can purchase, though. I made my own custom profile customized to what I need.


Thanks. I'm not smart enough to make my own, I struggle with making coffee.  Do you have the regular or the Stream Deck XL?


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## sbarrettmusic

Sears Poncho said:


> Thanks. I'm not smart enough to make my own, I struggle with making coffee.  Do you have the regular or the Stream Deck XL?


It's actually quite simple! Just takes time to set up as these things do. I bought the regular model before the XL came out. I'm tempted to pick up the XL but I'm not sure I really need it. I like the size of the regular model and I already have everything organized into folders without needing too many sub-folders.


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## tmhuud

Sibelius, then Notion.


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## Shakuhachi

tmhuud said:


> Sibelius, then Notion.
> [


Do you prefer Notion? Why this move?


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## Mat.D.

I‘m using Sibelius since Version 1. It does the job, but I‘m not really happy about it. Dorico might be an option....one day.


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## Sears Poncho

Mat.D. said:


> I‘m using Sibelius since Version 1. It does the job, but I‘m not really happy about it. Dorico might be an option....one day.


What would you like to see improved with Sibelius?


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## tmhuud

Shakuhachi said:


> Do you prefer Notion? Why this move?



Sibelius first [it’s on the main desktop(s)], NOTION on my iPad Pro. Quick sketching and very intuitive. Allows me to sketch then sit at the piano and work things out. (Or better yet, write them down before my feeble brain forgets what I wrote!)


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## Michael Antrum

Sears Poncho said:


> What are you like to see improved with Sibelius?



The GUI interface is so convoluted and stuff is hidden in very odd places. Also, the forced maintenance plan (or you can't upgrade and have to re-buy) really grates on me. 

I've moved onto Dorico now, and I find it much more intuitive to use, and it does all of what I need, but I do understand it is missing a few things that other might miss...


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## emasters

Primarily Dorico now, having moved from Sibelius. Just got a new iPad Pro over the holidays. Using Notion with the Pen on the iPad -- something I've always wanted to do (enter notes via a pencil-like device versus key, keyboard or mouse). Perhaps Dorico on iPad some day...?


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## Sears Poncho

Michael Antrum said:


> The GUI interface is so convoluted and stuff is hidden in very odd places. Also, the forced maintenance plan (or you can't upgrade and have to re-buy) really grates on me.
> 
> I've moved onto Dorico now, and I find it much more intuitive to use,


Thanks for the answer. I certainly understand the maintenance angle and the frustration, it's absurd. And frankly, probably a good reason.

The "intuitive" part doesn't really apply to me I guess. I've used Sibelius so long that it doesn't have to be "intuitive". I could do it in my sleep. What I can't figure out with Dorico is how to move notes up and down. With sibelius it's the up and down arrows.


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## Markus Kohlprath

Sears Poncho said:


> . What I can't figure out with Dorico is how to move notes up and down. With sibelius it's the up and down arrows.


its option+shift+up/down arrow


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## Sears Poncho

Markus Kohlprath said:


> its option+shift+up/down arrow


Thanks. This is the stuff that would drive me nuts.


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## Shakuhachi

tmhuud said:


> Sibelius first [it’s on the main desktop(s)], NOTION on my iPad Pro. Quick sketching and very intuitive. Allows me to sketch then sit at the piano and work things out. (Or better yet, write them down before my feeble brain forgets what I wrote!)


Ah yes, i know this feeling.
IPad Pro nice, was thinking about it and thought the notation software would be the weak point. 

How does your workflow work? (iPad to computer)?


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## Markus Kohlprath

Sears Poncho said:


> Thanks. This is the stuff that would drive me nuts.


I went nuts more than one time. Especially before I found out how to move notes.😀 But you can assign your own keycommands pretty much like in cubase. That helps but takes time to setup. After all I did the switch from sibelius to dorico and I'm pretty happy.


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## Sears Poncho

Markus Kohlprath said:


> After all I did the switch from sibelius to dorico and I'm pretty happy.


I can't decide if I ''need" to. Do you think the printed music looks better, or is that up to personal skill level? 

I played with Dorico a lot last nite. RIght now, it's sluggish. Something like copying and pasting one bar has a slight delay, etc. I do see the potential down the road. I can't see much of a difference with printed sheet music. If I were doing Xenakis, I think it would be a no-brainer that Dorico would be much better. For Leroy Anderson-ish symphony scores, I'm not seeing much of a difference. I've asked symphony players about what they think of my sheet music and they see zero problems. Maybe I just like new toys.


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## ptram

Sears Poncho said:


> Thanks. This is the stuff that would drive me nuts.


Dorico uses the arrow keys for moving around. Without using the mouse, you can select everything with them. I find it liberating.

Paolo


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## Takabuntu

Ashermusic said:


> Logic Pro score editor, since 1.0, and before that Atari Notator SL, created by the same people.



Both Logic X Score Editor and MuseScore, but the latter only for sharing with my tutor.


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## wst3

I may be missing something, but I've been trying to use Musescore for about a year (just got the notice about subscription renewal), and I still don't get it. Am I missing something?

I use Finale for most of my scoring needs, and I have been working on integrating Studio One and Notion. Not there yet, but getting closer.


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## bcarwell

I use Finale. Was very hard remembering how to do many things until I got a tip from Dr. Obvious (DOH).

Several years ago I cut a deck of colored 3x5 cards in half, associating each color with a different function like notes, etc. I tired of having to again research the SAME problem I ran into 6 months ago.

When I ran across something I couldn't do, yes I had to stop, go through the manual, online help, YouTube, post on the forum, etc.-real PITA. BUT: I would then take one of the little blank 1.5 x 2.5 cards, write on the top the task I was stumped with ("Notes-erase", "Add Staff", "Change key", etc.) followed by terse numbered steps to accomplish same. 

I picked the name for the task very carefully because I then alphabetized the growing stack of cards according to the task name. As I learned the more common functions I no longer needed a reminder for I would remove them from the deck. I now have a little stack of these cards for Finale (and Cubase). And I write cross-references on them to related cards as needed. 

Now when I hit a snag, I just go to my stack of cards and find out how to do it instantly. Beats the hell out of fumbling through scribbled scattered notes, or a "Help" index which should be renamed "Hindrance". 

Anyway, that's my approach to so many of these music software interfaces built by room temperature I.Q. Martians. Thank you Dr. Obvious.


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## d.healey

wst3 said:


> I may be missing something, but I've been trying to use Musescore for about a year (just got the notice about subscription renewal), and I still don't get it. Am I missing something?


Musescore (the program) doesn't require a subscription, it's free software.

Musescore.com is a community site to share music written with Musescore. It has a subscription option.


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## Markus Kohlprath

bcarwell said:


> I use Finale. Was very hard remembering how to do many things until I got a tip from Dr. Obvious (DOH).
> 
> Several years ago I cut a deck of colored 3x5 cards in half, associating each color with a different function like notes, etc. I tired of having to again research the SAME problem I ran into 6 months ago.
> 
> When I ran across something I couldn't do, yes I had to stop, go through the manual, online help, YouTube, post on the forum, etc.-real PITA. BUT: I would then take one of the little blank 1.5 x 2.5 cards, write on the top the task I was stumped with ("Notes-erase", "Add Staff", "Change key", etc.) followed by terse numbered steps to accomplish same.
> 
> I picked the name for the task very carefully because I then alphabetized the growing stack of cards according to the task name. As I learned the more common functions I no longer needed a reminder for I would remove them from the deck. I now have a little stack of these cards for Finale (and Cubase). And I write cross-references on them to related cards as needed.
> 
> Now when I hit a snag, I just go to my stack of cards and find out how to do it instantly. Beats the hell out of fumbling through scribbled scattered notes, or a "Help" index which should be renamed "Hindrance".
> 
> Anyway, that's my approach to so many of these music software interfaces built by room temperature I.Q. Martians. Thank you Dr. Obvious.


This is a great idea. I often have only an unstructured list where I struggle to find my notes and use it only when I learn a new program. Your method is especially great if you don't work with an app on a daily basis like video editing in premiere where it's hard to remember after several weeks how something works.Thanks for bringing that up.


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## Markus Kohlprath

Sears Poncho said:


> I can't decide if I ''need" to. Do you think the printed music looks better, or is that up to personal skill level?
> 
> I played with Dorico a lot last nite. RIght now, it's sluggish. Something like copying and pasting one bar has a slight delay, etc. I do see the potential down the road. I can't see much of a difference with printed sheet music. If I were doing Xenakis, I think it would be a no-brainer that Dorico would be much better. For Leroy Anderson-ish symphony scores, I'm not seeing much of a difference. I've asked symphony players about what they think of my sheet music and they see zero problems. Maybe I just like new toys.


I would say if you are fine with sibelius there is certainly no need to switch. For me it was since version 7 and the change to the subscription model that I had the feeling I don't get what I pay for anymore and the updates hardly made any sense to me. But I don't write scores for professional orchestras and have no need to exchange it with other orchestrators. I just want to to decide myself if and when I want/need to update.


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## Thundercat

Markus Kohlprath said:


> I would say if you are fine with sibelius there is certainly no need to switch. For me it was since version 7 and the change to the subscription model that I had the feeling I don't get what I pay for anymore and the updates hardly made any sense to me. But I don't write scores for professional orchestras and have no need to exchange it with other orchestrators. I just want to to decide myself if and when I want/need to update.


I’m the same. I bought Sibelius version 7.5 and then reluctantly “upgraded” to the subscription model a couple years later. Not one new feature did I use. I feel I wasted $120 and so stopped paying and went back to 7.5.

To me it’s a ripoff to have to keep paying every month. Updates used to be around $100 every year or two and then you owned it.

Now I use Dorico too but find it VERY counterintuitive - although scores look much better with much less fuss.


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## Sears Poncho

Markus Kohlprath said:


> I would say if you are fine with sibelius there is certainly no need to switch.


Excellent advice.

I spent some time tonight "goofing" around with Sibelius, even though I have used it every day for years. Kinda running through features I don't usually use etc. It's a great program. When Avid pulled all the nonsense in 2013, they really damaged the product's reputation. That really shouldn't be the case, as their reputation should be damaged but the product is still great. The latest update is good and is hope for the future. I think the current team is figuring out how to make progress.


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## tmhuud

Shakuhachi said:


> Ah yes, i know this feeling.
> IPad Pro nice, was thinking about it and thought the notation software would be the weak point.
> 
> How does your workflow work? (iPad to computer)?



mostly iPad to piano. The pro is a nice size so if you have a good amount of sheet music it fits nicely on the pro and if you have an AirTurn, rifling thru pages is easy peasy. In Notion you can save in different formats and import those into your DAW, etc. I feel like palm rejection technology took a bit to work for lefties but I’m not having too many issues with it as of late.


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## Markus Kohlprath

Thundercat said:


> Now I use Dorico too but find it VERY counterintuitive - although scores look much better with much less fuss.


I think it's because the two programs are so different from ground up. I'm sure we can get as used to dorico as we were with sibelius. What helps is setting up individual keycommands. This works better than in sibelius I find. But changing habits that are trained for years is always a pita.😀 But maybe not bad for our brains to stay flexible.


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## Shakuhachi

tmhuud said:


> mostly iPad to piano. The pro is a nice size so if you have a good amount of sheet music it fits nicely on the pro and if you have an AirTurn, rifling thru pages is easy peasy. In Notion you can save in different formats and import those into your DAW, etc. I feel like palm rejection technology took a bit to work for lefties but I’m not having too many issues with it as of late.





tmhuud said:


> mostly iPad to piano. The pro is a nice size so if you have a good amount of sheet music it fits nicely on the pro and if you have an AirTurn, rifling thru pages is easy peasy. In Notion you can save in different formats and import those into your DAW, etc. I feel like palm rejection technology took a bit to work for lefties but I’m not having too many issues with it as of late.


ah, I am lefty too, I know your pain. Happy they considered a little bit more the 10% of people here.
You really motivated me, I will have a look. Thanks for sharing


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## wst3

d.healey said:


> Musescore (the program) doesn't require a subscription, it's free software.
> 
> Musescore.com is a community site to share music written with Musescore. It has a subscription option.


OK, that would be the first bit that I missed! Thanks!!


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## Henu

Hey, one question on Dorico which I find impossible to find an answer for.

Does Dorico actually need the Elicencer or not? I tried to install the SE version for trying it out, and was under the impression that this one doesn't need but a serial- but alas, I was forced to register it to my Elicencer. Thus, I'm pretty sure that if this stripped-down miniversion wants to be tied into an Elicencer, Elements and Pro will want it as well.

Which brings me to my second question- is it really so that I cannot use Dorico (any version, it seems) with two computers _without actually plugging the Elicencer into the machine I want to use_? Because even though the soft-elicencer would technically even work, then Dorico would be tied to one particular computer. Can anyone tell me how does it go?

PS: On top of all this, I couldn't even get the SE working. Even though I have the SE now tied to my Elicencer and supposedly installed, I'm still forced to use Dorico Pro trial version when I open it, even though it's way too much for someone like me who is only dipping his toes into the murky waters of notation software.


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## Sears Poncho

I had to re-write a fairly large orchestration in one day, copyright-ish issues (not on my end). Note to self (and maybe others): Never ever switch notation programs. Never. Ever.  I've known this program (Sibelius) since version 3, I've logged a few million notes. If I switched to another, it would take years and years to learn.

Sibelius is fast. Avid is the epitome of Corporate greed IMO, but the program makes it easy to fly.


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## MichaelBarry

Stuck on Sibelius - have often thought of changing for more of this or that. But I had enough of a time changing from Sib 6 to Ultimate (via the loss of menu items on the ribbon.) It is good advice to stick with what you know. Dorico has me always curious though.


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## Sears Poncho

MichaelBarry said:


> Dorico has me always curious though.


Me too, hence my above post. I have the Dorico SE freebie and have been messing with it. No doubt that a great program is coming. I just have too much time invested in Sibelius and it would be foolish to try and undo that. Moving notes in Sib. is up or down arrow, in Dorico it is shift/arrows. This stuff would drive be nuts. 

I'm the principal arranger for a symphony, I do "pops" and other non-classical shows. If I was doing modern classical music I'd switch right away. Sibelius can't do basic things like cadenzas without a little trickery. 3/4 against 9/8, same thing. But I don't do that stuff. Maybe when I get to my Ligeti phase, I will switch.


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## giwro

Finale user since 1994 (bought it with a student discount to score my composition Sr. recital pieces!)
Later on I tried Sibelius, Notion, Overture, and now on Dorico 3 (which seems to be VERY stable after the latest 3.x release)

Dorico has take a bit to get used to, since the workflow is different than 26+ years of habit in Finale, but I simply conformed to the new keystrokes/shortcuts/etc and learned them without bitching about it... once I got it concepts in my brain, it is actually faster than Finale (and I am/was FAST scoring in Finale!).

Funny thing, though... for certain projects, I will still fire up Finale 25 - there are some things I just can do faster (and I'm more familiar with it still). Or, if I'm on a tight deadline, it's still Finale all the way, since I know the likelihood of having to look up how to do something obscure is pretty slim. Dorico I mostly use for fun projects, or experiment with VI (which is much easier in Dorico, as is the MIDI editing)

I could probably switch now - with the latest release I think it's finally got most all of what I need...

Having said that, I'll have to keep up on Finale, as most of my composers use it (a scant few on Sibelius) and I have a LOT of scores still in that format (with no time to export to MXML and re-do in Dorico)

YMMV.

As has been said, if you're a hobbyist, try 'em all and buy/use what you like. If you're a pro (or aspiring pro), get and learn what the majority of the field you're entering uses.


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## michaelrohanek

Sears Poncho said:


> Thanks. This is the stuff that would drive me nuts.



Sibelius for 18 years, switched to Dorico. Amazing Product. I arrange for orchestra and pop/stage bands.

I think you'll find once you start using Dorico you'll see that the moving of notes is quite consistent. Option/Arrow moves the notes any direction you like, up/down/left/right. If you press cmd + shift you can move the notes an octave, or when you use option+shift+left/right it edits the duration of the note. This also applies to other objects like dynamics, lines, etc. This is a very powerful and unique feature.

Any press of the arrow keys (without modifiers) moves the selection to the adjacent similar object. Very intuitive. 

Engrave mode doesn't even exist in Sibelius, the fact you can insert any selection of music/pictures/text without the hassle of placement. It works like a desktop publisher.

The more I use it I discover it's the future of scoring and only a matter of time before it becomes the de-facto choice. I just hope they dump the USB e-licenser soon. They are aware and are working on it.


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## cmillar

I made the switch to Dorico last year, after many years using Sibelius (...which I had switched to from having used Finale)

Most of my printed music is for my own bands, or for ensembles that have commissioned me for something and I want to give them totally professionally acceptable scores and parts.

Dorico is great. I just want to write music without having to spend days trying to get the chord symbols looking the way I like them or finding a suitable font for either commercial music or 'legit' music. I love their built-in fonts, and the chord symbols are easy to tweak if you need to do so.

The 'stock' Dorico settings are really superb, and just being able to leave most of them as they are is such a timesaver and stress reliever in itself. 

Custom keystrokes can be set up. I started out using Dorico with 'Keystroke Manager', but have since discovered that I don't even need it with Dorico.

And the latest upgrade is nothing short of kind of mind-blowing.... I might even consider delving into the MIDI editing features.... as I've always used my DAW for recording/producing and always separated the written scoring from the DAW functions.

And Dorico now has 'lines' just like Sibelius does; I'd requested that when I first bought the program, and I'm sure many others did too. No complaints about anything.

Plus, you don't have to deal with the crazy Avid licensing scheme. With Dorico, you buy it and use it. The Steinberg e-licenser works great. No problems....use a desktop or your laptop. Upgrading is real easy too whenever there has been an update. Thank you Steinberg.

Do you need to 're-think' a few things when you switch? Sure!....but it doesn't take long to get into Dorico and see how smooth it is.


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## sbarrettmusic

Like others, I am a long time Sibelius user but I have tried Dorico and I am very interested in it. I think it is inevitable that our team will switch over to Dorico at some point, especially considering the direction Avid has been moving. For what I do, Dorico isn't quite ready for prime time but it is getting there quicker than I thought it would. The Sibelius team will really need to step up their game to compete, and I think they are trying to based some of the recent updates. The new MIDI import feature has SO much potential, but in it's current state is very clunky and has some bugs that make it unusable for what I need it to do.


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## Sears Poncho

Nice comments and insight in all the above posts. 



sbarrettmusic said:


> The Sibelius team will really need to step up their game to compete, and I think they are trying to based some of the recent updates. The new MIDI import feature has SO much potential, but in it's current state is very clunky


Yeah. The potential is there but they seemed to have abandoned developing it (the midi import). The last update was good and shows (hopefully) that they are moving forward. Even if one doesn't switch to Dorico, it's presence is going to be positive. Avid will have to keep developing the program as it has real competition.... and of course the incredible situation that the "competition" came from Sibelius itself!  



cmillar said:


> I want to give them totally professionally acceptable scores and parts.


I have asked many colleagues about Sibelius/my charts, pro players (who don't write or know much about notation programs). They think Sibelius looks great and very pro. Granted, I've never said "compare this from Sibelius to this from Dorico". I think a good amount has to do with the skills of the composer/engraver. I found some old pdf scores I made with Sibelius 3 and 5. They looked lousy. Part of that was me not having much experience back then, and part is that Sibelius 2020 has really come a long way. 

I wonder if Sibelius is "good enough". Major Publishing houses use it. Question to the good folks here: do you think the actual printed music that Dorico puts out is clearly better than Sibelius? And does it matter at this point?


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## sbarrettmusic

Sears Poncho said:


> Nice comments and insight in all the above posts.
> Yeah. The potential is there but they seemed to have abandoned developing it (the midi import). The last update was good and shows (hopefully) that they are moving forward. Even if one doesn't switch to Dorico, it's presence is going to be positive. Avid will have to keep developing the program as it has real competition.... and of course the incredible situation that the "competition" came from Sibelius itself!


Indeed, a little competition is good for the consumer  

When the import feature first came out, I emailed back and forth a bit with the developers about some ideas to improve the feature. It seemed like they were intending on developing it further but I guess they haven't gotten to it yet as the following update only addressed a few minor bugs.


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## michaelrohanek

My honest view is that Sibelius has no chance keeping up wth Dorico. Don't forget that Sibelius was written by the Dorico team. They know more about Sibelius than Avid do.


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## andrzejmakal

Hi
Short question:
Any experience with TrackPad and Sibelius? Anybody? 

It' OT, I know, sorry for that, I just need an advice from advanced users here, please...

Cheers


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## JT

Sears Poncho said:


> I wonder if Sibelius is "good enough". Major Publishing houses use it. Question to the good folks here: do you think the actual printed music that Dorico puts out is clearly better than Sibelius? And does it matter at this point?



Is Sibelius "good enough", sure. Most the the US publishing companies that I know of still use Finale. But I don't think that you can ever compare outputs of notation programs. They all can produce good looking score and they can all put out crap. A while back, a member of the Chicago Symphony, one of the best in the world, showed me some of his notation examples. To be blunt, it was not good. I would never think of giving the orchestra something that looked like that, yet here we had one of the best musicians in the world who thought this music looked professional.

I believe the notation programs are just like learning an instrument, you have to learn them to get really good output.


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## Sears Poncho

JT said:


> Is Sibelius "good enough", sure. But I don't think that you can ever compare outputs of notation programs. They all can produce good looking score and they can all put out crap. A while back, a member of the Chicago Symphony, one of the best in the world, showed me some of his notation examples. To be blunt, it was not good.


Yup. Fortunately, "most" (I use that term cautiously) symphony musicians are OK on that front. For a pops show, there's a pile of charts, ya go through them, turn 'em over etc. As a composer/arranger in addition to being a player, I tend to notice "look at the spacing of that rehearsal letter" and "what a weird place for a double bar", when nobody else notices or cares.  

A lot of classical music is laughably bad, especially rental. Gershwin, The Firebird, Carmina Burana, broadway stuff- the parts are hand-written. Three-Cornered Hat is just awful (depending on the edition of course). 



JT said:


> I believe the notation programs are just like learning an instrument,


Same here. That's why it's hard for me to imagine leaving Sibelius, I'm a virtuoso.  Basic note input is easily re-learned, but it's all the "make into page" stuff that is so second nature that would be difficult.


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## sbarrettmusic

Sears Poncho said:


> "what a weird place for a double bar"


This is one of my biggest pet peeves. Like when there is a pickup phrase starting on beat 4 of measure 8 into a new section at measure 9 but the double bar is at measure 8 instead of measure 9.


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## ScoringArts

FWIW, we've partnered with Steinberg and have moved to Dorico for all our engraving projects. And we couldn't be happier! Our members also qualify to receive discounts on the software.


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## Daniel S.

Henu said:


> Does Dorico actually need the Elicencer or not?



It requires you to have an active license on either the Soft-eLicenser on your computer's hard disk or a USB-eLicenser, yes. But you do not have to use a USB-eLicenser.



Henu said:


> Which brings me to my second question- is it really so that I cannot use Dorico (any version, it seems) with two computers _without actually plugging the Elicencer into the machine I want to use_? Because even though the soft-elicencer would technically even work, then Dorico would be tied to one particular computer. Can anyone tell me how does it go?



If you do have your active license on a USB-eLicenser, yes, you have to plug the USB-eLicenser into the computer you want to run Dorico on at that point. With Dorico SE, I'll happily provide you with as many activation codes as you like, so you can install those codes onto the Soft-eLicenser and run Dorico SE on any computer without the use of the USB-eLicenser. But for Dorico Elements and Pro I'm afraid you will need the USB-eLicenser if you want to run Dorico on multiple computers.



Henu said:


> PS: On top of all this, I couldn't even get the SE working. Even though I have the SE now tied to my Elicencer and supposedly installed, I'm still forced to use Dorico Pro trial version when I open it, even though it's way too much for someone like me who is only dipping his toes into the murky waters of notation software.



This will be because you have a time-limited "all applications" license on your USB-eLicenser. When an eLicenser-enabled application runs, it automatically receives the best available license, which in your case will be the "all applications" trial license that allows it to run as Dorico Pro instead of Dorico SE. When that time-limited license runs out, it will run up as Dorico SE instead.

You can force it to run as Dorico SE by holding Ctrl (Windows) or Command (Mac) when it starts up.


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## Henu

Thanks a lot for a very clear clarification!  I ended up buying Elements, and will most likely start using it with my main audio computer and the SE with my laptop. 

I actually need to do some notation for a violinist for the project I'm currently working on, so this simple project done with the SE and laptop will provide me a great start for checking out the mysteries of real notation software instead of Cubase's score editor. The Ctrl- tip at start was also pure gold, so thanks for that!!


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## Magnus Johansson

I use Igor Engraver 1.7 for Windows via CrossOver on Debian 10. See https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/igor-engraver-17

I started using notation software in 1998. I first briefly used Musicator, then Sibelius for some years, and switched to Igor Engraver in 2003. I have tried a lot of notation programs since then, and contributed to some of them, and I am now interested in trying out Dorico again to see if I like it better now than I did when I tried its version 1.3.


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## Bollen

Magnus Johansson said:


> I use Igor Engraver 1.7 for Windows via CrossOver on Debian 10. See https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/igor-engraver-17
> 
> I started using notation software in 1998. I first briefly used Musicator, then Sibelius for some years, and switched to Igor Engraver in 2003. I have tried a lot of notation programs since then, and contributed to some of them, and I am now interested in trying out Dorico again to see if I like it better now than I did when I tried its version 1.3.


I think you will. I also demoed 1.x and was very unimpressed I finally bought version 2 because they had added, what I felt was, the bare minimum. But it very quickly became my main program to my surprise. When they finally added condensing, I just deleted my previous program from my computer... Once you get your head around the design philosophy, there's just nothing quite like it... I just wish they did some work on the Play window which is awful and less than amateur...


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## Magnus Johansson

Bollen said:


> I think you will. I also demoed 1.x and was very unimpressed I finally bought version 2 because they had added, what I felt was, the bare minimum. But it very quickly became my main program to my surprise. When they finally added condensing, I just deleted my previous program from my computer... Once you get your head around the design philosophy, there's just nothing quite like it... I just wish they did some work on the Play window which is awful and less than amateur...


OK, let's see, but I have to use it on another computer, one with Windows 10, since it does not work via CrossOver in Linux.

By the way: Have you made the picture in your avatar? Are you perhaps Swedish? ("Bollen" means "the ball" in Swedish.)


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## Bollen

Magnus Johansson said:


> OK, let's see, but I have to use it on another computer, one with Windows 10, since it does not work via CrossOver in Linux.
> 
> By the way: Have you made the picture in your avatar? Are you perhaps Swedish? ("Bollen" means "the ball" in Swedish.)


Yeah, unfortunately it does not work in Linux.

The name was indeed created by my ex wife who was Swedish! The picture is a self portrait I drew when she was teaching me to use a computer.... Heh, heh, heh!


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## cmillar

I'm a composer/arranger, not a publisher (except for my own bands and some commissioned music for various ensemble for which I'll be preparting scores and parts). So, I want to continue thinking like a composer, not a publisher or full-time copyist. I've been trying Dorico the past year, and sure, it's great and I've raved about aspects of it. But...I'm back to Sibelius because I have a lot of music to crank out right now and I have to work creatively in 'composer/arranger' mode. I'm used to Sibelius after many years of using it, but for me it's definitely quicker and more friendly to my way of thinking as a composer, and I'm old-schooled pencil and paper trained and relate to Sibelius. I don't mind making changes as I go along...I hate having to switch between Dorico's 'Write' and 'Engrave' mode as it takes me out of my composing zone. Sure...different strokes for different folks....alll the programs will print out scores and parts beautifully. You just have to find something that makes you feel creative.


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## Magnus Johansson

I tried downloading Dorico SE but failed in the second downloading help program where I couldn't find Dorico SE; the help program window was larger than my screen and I couldn't see all its content. Is it really necessary with two downloading programs, the first of which is 103 MB in size?


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## Bollen

cmillar said:


> I'm a composer/arranger, not a publisher (except for my own bands and some commissioned music for various ensemble for which I'll be preparting scores and parts). So, I want to continue thinking like a composer, not a publisher or full-time copyist. I've been trying Dorico the past year, and sure, it's great and I've raved about aspects of it. But...I'm back to Sibelius because I have a lot of music to crank out right now and I have to work creatively in 'composer/arranger' mode. I'm used to Sibelius after many years of using it, but for me it's definitely quicker and more friendly to my way of thinking as a composer, and I'm old-schooled pencil and paper trained and relate to Sibelius. I don't mind making changes as I go along...I hate having to switch between Dorico's 'Write' and 'Engrave' mode as it takes me out of my composing zone. Sure...different strokes for different folks....alll the programs will print out scores and parts beautifully. You just have to find something that makes you feel creative.


That's funny, because that was exactly my attitude for the first few months... But eventually I realised that the beauty of Dorico is that you barely, if at all, have to spend any time on the Engraving. Sibelius conditioned us to think in a certain way for years and bad habits are hard to break. Now that I've used Dorico professionally for over a year I find it far more conducive to pure composing than Sibelius ever was! In fact I would say that in hindsight, Sibelius was always in the way, always nagging with its little idiosyncrasies, you had to be constantly tweaking, adjusting, spacing, moving, etc. With Dorico I just write without ever thinking about the program itself. Granted, I did get myself one of those stream deck thingies so I don't even have to think about shortcuts, but I've never been this productive!

Also on a further note, Sibelius used to take at least 25% of the time or more to sort out the engraving/layout after I finish every composition (an activity I hated), with Dorico I barely/rarely have to do anything to the score once I finish.


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## joebaggan

Bollen said:


> Granted, I did get myself one of those stream deck thingies so I don't even have to think about shortcuts, but I've never been this productive!



Agreed about the Stream Deck. Whether you use Sib or Dorico, I've come to believe the Stream Deck is essential for fast entry and editing. All of these programs are fiddly when trying to use them as creative composition tools and work quickly, so being able to program your own macros in the Stream Deck for 1 button access is key to productivity.


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## Sears Poncho

Bollen said:


> Sibelius was always in the way, always nagging with its little idiosyncrasies, you had to be constantly tweaking, adjusting, spacing, moving, etc.
> 
> Also on a further note, Sibelius used to take at least 25% of the time or more to sort out the engraving/layout after I finish every composition (


This hasn't been my experience with Sibelius at all. Were you using an older version? I barely have to do anything. I write orchestral scores every day. The newer versions have lots of features, the latest being "Auto-Optimize". Regardless, I haven't had any issues in the engraving at all.

+1 for Stream Deck. Very handy.


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## cmillar

Sears Poncho said:


> This hasn't been my experience with Sibelius at all. Were you using an older version? I barely have to do anything. I write orchestral scores every day. The newer versions have lots of features, the latest being "Auto-Optimize". Regardless, I haven't had any issues in the engraving at all.
> 
> +1 for Stream Deck. Very handy.



Right...after being 'away' from Sibelius while using Dorico, when I came back to Sibelius I was able to update to version 2019.7 from vers. 8 something....and I'd just been getting used to ver.. 7.5

I must say that I'm totally impressed with the current incarnation of Sibelius for me. Fast, easy to use, easy to edit, etc. etc. Very smooth, and is beautiful in conjunction with Stream Deck.

Personally, I just accompished a ton of work over the last couple of days of getting back in the flow on Sibelius for a lot of composing/arranging and re-editing as well of some older works. 

Whatever works....I'll be with Sibelius unless something amazing happens with anything else.


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## Sears Poncho

cmillar said:


> I must say that I'm totally impressed with the current incarnation of Sibelius for me. Fast, easy to use, easy to edit, etc. etc. Very smooth, and is beautiful in conjunction with Stream Deck.


Avid has a huge PR problem. It's entirely their doing of course, the events of 2013 forever crippled the company and the reputation of its products. But... Sibelius was a highly respected program. Still is, if one can get past how poorly the company screwed up. The program has some good developers now, it's made a ton of improvement in the past few years. They just have to avoid doing dumb things like they still do, calling one "Ultimate" and one "Sibelius" when in fact "Sibelius" is now a stripped down cheapo version. Slow learners I guess.


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## JohnG

I just used Finale again yesterday. If you see blood pooling under the door of my studio, you'll know the reason....


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## Magnus Johansson

Does this video present the basic note input methods of Dorico also in its version 3?:


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## ptram

Magnus Johansson said:


> Does this video present the basic note input methods of Dorico also in its version 3?


It's the same. I can say, however, that I reprogrammed the shortcuts for the tenkeyless keyboard I use, and have everything in the main area of the keyboard.

Paolo


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## Magnus Johansson

ptram said:


> It's the same. I can say, however, that I reprogrammed the shortcuts for the tenkeyless keyboard I use, and have everything in the main area of the keyboard.
> 
> Paolo


Thanks for your reply, Paolo. What is a tenkeyless keyboard, and can you describe in more detail what your reprogramming resulted in, maybe with an image?


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## ptram

Magnus Johansson said:


> Thanks for your reply, Paolo. What is a tenkeyless keyboard, and can you describe in more detail what your reprogramming resulted in, maybe with an image?


"Tenkeyless keyboard" is jargon for a keyboard without a numeric keypad. I created my own embedded numeric keyboard with the help of Karabiner, a utility allowing for deeply reprogramming a Mac keyboard.

Using Dorico's keyboard shortcut remapping, I left notes and chord to the left hand, following the default settings. The right hand use the center keys for durations. I have JKL for notes with flags (demisemiquaver, semiquaver, quaver), the row over it for notes without flags in reverse order (semibreve, minim, crotchet). Rest, augmentation dot and groups under them. Alteration over them, with articulation marks around them.

Paolo


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## Magnus Johansson

OK, thanks, so you have U for whole notes, I for half notes and O for quarter notes, M for rest, comma for prolongation dot, and dash for groups(?), right? What keys did you assign the chromatic and articulation signs to?


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## Magnus Johansson

I have started to read the operation manual for Dorico SE3, a very well-written document, it seems. It is interesting that Dorico has picked up the "Musician concept" for score creation introduced with Igor Engraver in 1996; see e.g. pages 24 and 30 in the operation manual.


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## Bollen

Sears Poncho said:


> This hasn't been my experience with Sibelius at all. Were you using an older version? I barely have to do anything. I write orchestral scores every day. The newer versions have lots of features, the latest being "Auto-Optimize". Regardless, I haven't had any issues in the engraving at all.
> 
> +1 for Stream Deck. Very handy.


To be frank I'm not sure which version I was using. It already had the ribbon menu. If you had asked me a year ago, when I was still transitioning, I could have given you an in-depth review of the benefits or Dorico. Now I just don't remember. But playback improvements have cut my work time down to nearly half the time. I barely use Cubase anymore since I can tweak almost anything in Dorico and that is just priceless for me personally!

As for stream deck, an absolute must have! I have made pretty decent profiles for both the regular and large versions and made them available for free on the net.... If anybody wants them just let me know!


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## Sears Poncho

Bollen said:


> To be frank I'm not sure which version I was using. It already had the ribbon menu. If you had asked me a year ago, when I was still transitioning, I could have given you an in-depth review of the benefits or Dorico. Now I just don't remember. But playback improvements have cut my work time down to nearly half the time. I barely use Cubase anymore since I can tweak almost anything in Dorico and that is just priceless for me personally!


Cool. I'm guessing that Dorico will really shine with playback. I just use NotePerformer with Sibelius.

THe ribbon goes back to 2011.  Again, it's the fault of Avid. In most people's minds, the product is "frozen" and the releases like 8.0 were so meager that it seemed like the product was finished. In the past few years they have changed that and had many significant upgrades. I think Dorico will keep them on their toes a bit.


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## Magnus Johansson

A feature I like in Dorico is the popover. I suggested something along that line (but with dialog windows instead of text entry fields) to Sibelius Software in 2002, I believe. I never got any response.


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## Bollen

Sears Poncho said:


> Cool. I'm guessing that Dorico will really shine with playback. I just use NotePerformer with Sibelius.
> 
> THe ribbon goes back to 2011.  Again, it's the fault of Avid. In most people's minds, the product is "frozen" and the releases like 8.0 were so meager that it seemed like the product was finished. In the past few years they have changed that and had many significant upgrades. I think Dorico will keep them on their toes a bit.


I have kept up with the updates thanks to Notation Central which reports on every program's development. It's not the same as actually playing with it, but yes! I have been impressed with the progress they've made recently. However, I still think Dorico has the lead in the aspects I care about i.e. not having to spend too much time fixing the layout and being able to edit playback in the same program.


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## Magnus Johansson

Since it seems to be taking some time for Dorico to sort out my installation problem with Dorico SE3, I have a question about computer keyboard note input in that same program. What keystrokes does it take to input that of the attached example?


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## ptram

Magnus Johansson said:


> What keystrokes does it take to input that of the attached example?



Enter, Shift-M, 4/4, Enter.
6, G, B, Cmd-Alt-Up (x2), A, Cmd-Alt-Down (x2), C, Cmd-Alt-Up.

Paolo

EDIT: Changed the default shortcut for quaver, specified the double-click.


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## Magnus Johansson

ptram said:


> Enter, Shift-M, 4/4, Enter.
> 5, G, B, Cmd-Alt-Up, A, Cmd-Alt-Down, C, Cmd-Alt-Up.
> 
> Paolo


Thanks. Does 5 select quarter notes? Does input start in the small octave without my specifying it? Isn't it Cmd-Alt-Up two times in a row to move the note two octaves?


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## ptram

Magnus Johansson said:


> Thanks. Does 5 select quarter notes? Does input start in the small octave without my specifying it? Isn't it Cmd-Alt-Up two times in a row to move the note two octaves?


Admittedly, I'm not in front of the computer, so I was just guessing by recollection that 5 corresponds to quaver. I have to check the defaults later.

You are right in that you have to press the Cmd-Alt-Up/Down shortcuts twice, one for each octave.

Paolo


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## Saxer

6 is quarter note (the default setting when going into write mode).


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## Magnus Johansson

Saxer said:


> 6 is quarter note (the default setting when going into write mode).


OK, thanks. Which is the default octave for inputting in a treble clef staff?


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## Saxer

Magnus Johansson said:


> OK, thanks. Which is the default octave for inputting in a treble clef staff?


Closest to the note before. Starts with Midi-C4 I think.


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## Magnus Johansson

Saxer said:


> Closest to the note before. Starts with Midi-C4 I think.


In the following video it seems like the two-lined octave is the default input octave in a treble clef staff, at least for the note C:


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## Saxer

Magnus Johansson said:


> In the following video it seems like the two-lined octave is the default input octave in a treble clef staff, at least for the note C:


That's because the treble staff is selected for note input. With the arrow down key you can jump to the next system below.
Did you try Dorico yourself and look for the basic functions or is this a theoretical quest about the way it works? If you use the app for a while all this is very intuitive. Main thing is the way of using the pop over by shift-m for inputting meter, shift-k for key, shift-b for adding bars etc. You simply have to know this to start or you get lost in clicking around. Dorico is ment to be used by key commands. From there writing is very intuitive.
The main learning curve is getting to know all the menus for special situations: the way drum sets work, the way Dorico shows notation (like dividing bars in two halfs and use ties instead of longer notes), the way headlines work, sizes and system breaks, chords... all that takes time. Lot of own philosophies there which all makes sense but you have to know. The Steinberg Dorico forum is extremely helpful and fast for all that.


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## Magnus Johansson

Saxer said:


> That's because the treble staff is selected for note input. With the arrow down key you can jump to the next system below.



Yes, so where does an e.g. E go by default in a treble clef staff? E4 or E5? Where a G, etc. Where in a bass clef staff, etc?



Saxer said:


> Did you try Dorico yourself and look for the basic functions or is this a theoretical quest about the way it works?



Like I wrote earlier I couldn't download and install Dorico and I have not yet gotten any help from Steinberg in solving that issue. Anja Buckley at Steinberg has replied to my ticket but she hasn't proposed a solution.


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## Magnus Johansson

Magnus Johansson said:


> Yes, so where does an e.g. E go by default in a treble clef staff? E4 or E5? Where a G, etc. Where in a bass clef staff, etc?



Now I have found the answer at https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=104450
In a treble clef staff the default notes, if none is written before, are D4-C5, in a bass clef staff C3-B3, in a tenor clef staff G3-F4. I assume the last register is used for all C clefs.


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## Magnus Johansson

ptram said:


> Enter, Shift-M, 4/4, Enter.
> 6, G, B, Cmd-Alt-Up (x2), A, Cmd-Alt-Down (x2), C, Cmd-Alt-Up.
> 
> Paolo
> 
> EDIT: Changed the default shortcut for quaver, specified the double-click.


Shouldn't it be like this? (including mouse clicks): Double-click, Shift-M, 4/4, Return, G, Cmd-Alt-Down, B, Cmd-Alt-Up (x2), A, Cmd-Alt-Down (x2), C, Cmd-Alt-Up (x2).


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## Oldsicord

Hello,
I like Dorico 3.5 ... but ultimately I always go back to the Logic Pro X score editor to compose and not lose creative momentum ... It is a rustic editor certainly, but so effective when you know him well ... Managing polyphony for example, lengthening the duration of notes, placement of notes, rhythm changes ... All this is so fast in Logic (the force of habit). ... and a longer one in Dorico ...
Dorico has a lot of qualities: it is more complete for sophisticated engravings ... but Logic also produces beautiful scores.


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## Thundercat

Saxer said:


> That's because the treble staff is selected for note input. With the arrow down key you can jump to the next system below.
> Did you try Dorico yourself and look for the basic functions or is this a theoretical quest about the way it works? If you use the app for a while all this is very intuitive. Main thing is the way of using the pop over by shift-m for inputting meter, shift-k for key, shift-b for adding bars etc. You simply have to know this to start or you get lost in clicking around. Dorico is ment to be used by key commands. From there writing is very intuitive.
> The main learning curve is getting to know all the menus for special situations: the way drum sets work, the way Dorico shows notation (like dividing bars in two halfs and use ties instead of longer notes), the way headlines work, sizes and system breaks, chords... all that takes time. Lot of own philosophies there which all makes sense but you have to know. The Steinberg Dorico forum is extremely helpful and fast for all that.


I think it's "all very intuitive" if you are a keyboard person. Lots of folks aren't. I teach software for the last 30 years. Some ppl just will never be keyboarders. Dorico makes a big mistake in forcing a keyboard workflow as the only, or at least only efficient, way of doing most things.

it's a huge gaff and it's on them. I hope they wake up.

I'm ok with either and in fact prefer the keyboard, but Dorico is unnecessarily opaque in this regard.


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