# Getting work in Theatre, Ballet and Concert



## SimonCharlesHanna (Feb 26, 2014)

Hey all! 
So I started out dreaming of working the film/games industry but I am finding that it is not really the right path for me. I know quite a bit about scoring for film and networking to gain clients..."the game" so to speak however, I admit I know almost _nothing_ about how to get into theatre, ballet and concert.

Can anyone shed light on topics such as:
1. How to get work in these industries.
2. Comparing and contrasting them with the film world
3. If it is a viable option for a young composer
4. What kind of importance does mockups play in all of them.

If there's anything else you'd like to add please do!

Thanks for all the help.
Simon


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## Jaap (Feb 26, 2014)

Hey Simon,

I started out as classical composer. Followed the regular path by going to a conservatory, build up a network there and continue after my study onwards.
Here a few of my thoughts on your questions:

1. How to get work in these industries. 

Just like the film and game industry it comes down to networking. Learn to know a few musicians, try to get commisions for any of their ensembles. Hang out on a conservatory, expose yourself as a willing and learning composer. Aim for maybe writing a piece for one of the students exam/tentam and get exposure like this.

Get in touch with people from rotary clubs. Almost in every country they finance a lot of music/art projects or they have a big foot in the serious music and art world.
Go to concerts, try to get your way in afterparties to connect with musicians/conductor from the ensembles, bring your business card and pray :D

Other way to get exposure as composer is to enter composing competitions. There are quite a few in many flavors for young composers (up to age of 35) which can lead in the end to work.

Sending uncommisioned works to orchestras is in my opinion useless. No one ever gets back, just like other businesses they get a lot of unsollicited stuff as well.

2. Comparing and contrasting them with the film world 

It's a completely different beast in my opinion. The concert world is much more "elite", but also quite hard, just like the world of fashion and modern art. One day you can be "hot" and the next day you are forgotten. 
The turnaround in this world is much much slower then the film world. 

3. If it is a viable option for a young composer 

Yes, as a young composer it can be viable option, just keep in mind there are thousands and thousands of competitors with you and the market is small

4. What kind of importance does mockups play in all of them.

None actually. A mockup can be nice to show your ideas, but they won't turn you down if your mockup isn't up to TJ standards o=< 

I hardly work as concert composer anymore. Here in the Netherlands the competition was big, the crowd too elite for my taste and too much depending on external financing, meaning you had to "lick" your way in.
For me going a bit more commercial gave me a bigger feeling of independance, but that is just me.
Overall it is a great world to work in, but you need thick skin, patience and just like any other business, good networking skills to break in.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Feb 26, 2014)

Jaap @ Thu 27 Feb said:


> Hey Simon,
> 
> I started out as classical composer. Followed the regular path by going to a conservatory, build up a network there and continue after my study onwards.
> Here a few of my thoughts on your questions:
> ...



Thanks for taking the time to respond Jaap. Really appreciated and very insightful.


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## mathis (Feb 26, 2014)

What Jaap tells is pretty spot on for the classical concert world. (I too studied composition at a Dutch conservatory...)
But I mainly work in theatre and ballet these days. It's quite an interesting world between concert and film. You work a lot more directly with the performers and directors. Especially you work not alone but rehearse together with them. That's where the music develops.

That's also the main point wether you get jobs there or not: if performers and directors like to rehearse with you. It's a very intimate situation and nobody is interested in your latest mockup tricks but in your artisitc input. I only know a few who are good in working really close with non-musicians. I'm good at that because I myself am very interested in writing and art myself so I can understand their language.

Getting into it is - as usual - a matter of trust. Build up your network with young directors and choreographers. Those networks are far more reliable than nowadays in film world, where I don't trust anybody.

It's an intersting field. You don't earn as much as you can earn in film. But it's a nice way to go through life as a creating artist. Just try it and feel if you bur for the stage. That's what you have to.


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## mathis (Feb 26, 2014)

Really, it's actually less about the artistic input but about the psychological sensibility. You have to know in which moment your input is needed or when your input sucks, regardless if it is good or not. Sometimes you have to have the patience to just let the director and the actor solve that one difficult scene. It might take 2 weeks.


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## Daryl (Feb 26, 2014)

*mathis*, I would disagree with you slightly about the potential earnings of working ion Ballet. Opera and Ballet can earn you much more than any film composer would ever earn. You jsut have to write a successful piece. Just to put things in perspective, Prokoffiev's Romeo an Juliet was first performed in 1938 and has been pretty much performed around the world ever since. When you consider that most companies put on a number of weeks of performances (rehearsals are too expensive only to do a couple) and Grand Rights are payable, which are likely to be between 5% and 10% of Gross Box Office, there is a reason why Prokoffiev's kids never had to work a day in their lives.

D


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## rgames (Feb 26, 2014)

First, I'll agree that networking is still the best way to get your foot in the door. That's true for any profession. The simplest way to network is as a performer - that will expose you to both conductors and other musicians who can vouch for your music.

Other than that, there are societies that you can join that provide opportunities for new music - commissions, visiting fellowships, etc. The American Composer's Forum is one such organization in the US - I'm sure there are others around the world.

The main difference between the media music world and the concert music world is in the audience. When writing for the media (film, TV, music libraries, etc), you're mostly concerned about the audience's response to your music. When writing concert music, you're probably equally concerned about the audience's response and other musicians'/composers'/conductors' responses to your music because it is the latter's like/dislike that will get you the next commission.

Finally, the sad truth is that opportunities for new music are very few and far between at the major orchestra level. The subscribers to those programs don't really like new music, so it tends not to show up very often. You're much more likely to find favor in smaller regional orchestras or chamber groups.

rgames


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 26, 2014)

I don't think it's helpful to think of these art forms as another industry. Many of the composers in theatre, dance and new music are also in academia, and that's where the contacts are made (music, theatre and dance staff/students cross-pollinating), at conferences, concerts. If I was coming at these worlds from the outside, I would start by being present at events, involved in the community. I would also advertise in universities, dance departments, go to theatre-related parties. The last thing I would expect, though, is to make a living from that kind of composing alone. But that's just my experience, others may have a more favourable view of the income to be expected from that kind of work.


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## mathis (Feb 26, 2014)

Daryl, those were the times... I'm writing currently my second opera, and while I know this is not the best paid gig ever I know there is hardly any chance to earn some real money in opera anymore.
I mean it's OK, I can feed your family during the time of composing. But after it I need the next gig right away.

You can earn money in opera if your piece gets staged again at other theatres. But nowadays theatres want world premieres. That other theatres take over your piece is really rare.
Some recent somewhat successful examples are Peter Eötvös' "Three sisters" and Helmut Lachenmann's "Das Mädchen mit den Schwefelhölzern". I talked with Helmut recently. He needed seven years to compose it.
I don't think he thinks he could live of opera composing. Even with those 5 or so new productions.

Opera is a LOT of work...


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## impressions (Feb 26, 2014)

I have only done 3 theater plays, but they were consequent of the first. 

you should go to theater plays, either start with fringe, which is easier to get in, or the major ones but i think you will need to have some strong credit before.

its very simple, jsut go talk to the director, get to know him and try to convince to score his next play.

you need to do alot of leg work before you can actually land a gig, as always.
TBH the last gig burned me for 2 months, i couldn't write anything. i had to write tons of materials with barely any time on my hand(family). they are working in tight deadlines just like any industry.
but fringe is fantastic for beginners, and for non-beginners. because you usually have ultimate artistic freedom.

I totally recommend entering the world of theater. working with actors is also an amusing experience.

good luck.


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## Daryl (Feb 27, 2014)

mathis @ Thu Feb 27 said:


> Daryl, those were the times... I'm writing currently my second opera, and while I know this is not the best paid gig ever I know there is hardly any chance to earn some real money in opera anymore.
> I mean it's OK, I can feed your family during the time of composing. But after it I need the next gig right away.


I understand what you're saying, but that's precisely why I gave ballet as an example, as opera requires a different outlook. If you think of it the same way as writing music for media, you have to do four things (once you've got the gig, of course):

1) Make sure the story has universal appeal
2) Make the music relatively accessible
3) Make sure that you know how to write for dance and that your music allows the dancers to do what they like to do, without having to play the music at half speed.
4) Pick the right ballet company to write for (which usually means the right choreographer) so that you get multiple performances

I think the real problem is that (as has been alluded to above) "serious composers" are so worried about music critics, they forget about the audience. I think that you're either running a business, or not. If not, write what you want and try to impress the critics, if that's your bag. If you are running a business, make sure that there is something in your music for the middle class vote.

D


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## mathis (Feb 27, 2014)

Interestingly enough I have a ballet gig coming up on the horizon, a children/youth production for one of the major German companies. And it's actually their prerequisite to use a universal and known story.
If I earn a bag of money with that I'll report back. 

One note to the "serious" composers: I actually don't think they're composing for the critics (there is hardly any critics in contemporary music left anyway), they're composing for their "serious" colleagues and teachers, which is even worse.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 27, 2014)

I've never heard any of my composer friends who write for the art forms mentioned in this thread talk about their 'business', the 'industry', and writing some for the 'middle-class vote'. I think you're coming at thi$ from the wrong place. As for shitting on contemporary music composers, it's a little too easy guys, don't you think? For all of the ivory towers in the world surely barely match the stinking mountain of conformity that our specialty generates (I include myself in this).


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## Daryl (Feb 27, 2014)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Thu Feb 27 said:


> I've never heard any of my composer friends who write for the art forms mentioned in this thread talk about their 'business', the 'industry', and writing some for the 'middle-class vote'. I think you're coming at thi$ from the wrong place.


Putting on Swan Lake, Sleeping Beauty, Giselle etc, for a gazillion performances a year is not about art. It's about bums on seats. If an Artistic Director/Choreographer could do new stuff all the time, he/she would. From a musical perspective, there is very little of an artistic nature in playing Tchaikovsky's Swan Lake music at half speed, IMO. :wink: 

D


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## Daryl (Feb 27, 2014)

mathis @ Thu Feb 27 said:


> Interestingly enough I have a ballet gig coming up on the horizon, a children/youth production for one of the major German companies. And it's actually their prerequisite to use a universal and known story.
> If I earn a bag of money with that I'll report back.


Sounds exciting. Good luck with that.

D


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## Jaap (Feb 27, 2014)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Thu Feb 27 said:


> I've never heard any of my composer friends who write for the art forms mentioned in this thread talk about their 'business', the 'industry', and writing some for the 'middle-class vote'. I think you're coming at thi$ from the wrong place. As for [email protected]#ting on contemporary music composers, it's a little too easy guys, don't you think? For all of the ivory towers in the world surely barely match the stinking mountain of conformity that our specialty generates (I include myself in this).



There is a difference I think in writing and working in the "serious" music scene. Though I don't work any more as contemporary music composer, I still write though, I just don't try to make any money anymore with it and I write purely for the sake of my love for the art itself 
However, after you finished a study, spend a pile of money on instruments, books, etc you have the hope to earn just like everyone else some money. Not by compromising your art, but by the hope of getting your art discovered.
In the journey on getting your art discovered you realise it is just like anything else in this world. You need to network, you need to compromise if you want to be seen. Nobody is waiting for you and seeing your beloved music gathering dust on a shelf (or HD these days :D) is frustrating, though slowly, without even noticing it, it influences also your writing process, because you start to think a bit more "commercial", because you want your music to be heard on a stage etc.

I splitted everything now. I make money with writing music for libraries, games etc and in my free time I write my symphonies, operas and all that stuff. If an occassion arises that I can try to showcase my concert music I try it, but my income just don't depends on it anymore and this gives me a lot more freedom in my mind to be honest.


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## AC986 (Feb 27, 2014)

Good luck Mathis and don't mess with the orchestra.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rU8tzGQCwd4

Recognise the hall Daryl? >8o


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## Daryl (Feb 27, 2014)

adriancook @ Thu Feb 27 said:


> Good luck Mathis and don't mess with the orchestra.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rU8tzGQCwd4
> 
> Recognise the hall Daryl? >8o


HAHAHAHA. Yes, I'd forgotten that film. "They are merely the guinea pigs for my interpretation", and the Cor Anglais player having a puff on his pipe in the beat rest. Wonderful. :lol: :lol: 

D


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Feb 27, 2014)

:(

You guys lost me. o/~


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## mathis (Feb 27, 2014)

adriancook @ Thu Feb 27 said:


> Good luck Mathis and don't mess with the orchestra.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rU8tzGQCwd4
> >8o



!!!  _-)


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## mathis (Feb 27, 2014)

SimonCharlesHanna @ Thu Feb 27 said:


> :(
> 
> You guys lost me. o/~



Why? I think you got plenty of very useful information here.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Feb 27, 2014)

mathis @ Thu 27 Feb said:


> SimonCharlesHanna @ Thu Feb 27 said:
> 
> 
> > :(
> ...



Oh I am not disagreeing with that! 

I think I am a bit confused about Concert VS Ballet and about writing for audience VS critics - I'll have to have a re-read I think!


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## Jaap (Feb 27, 2014)

SimonCharlesHanna @ Thu Feb 27 said:


> mathis @ Thu 27 Feb said:
> 
> 
> > SimonCharlesHanna @ Thu Feb 27 said:
> ...



Best way to tackle that is to write a concert ballet for an audience full or critics o=?


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Feb 27, 2014)

Jaap @ Fri 28 Feb said:


> SimonCharlesHanna @ Thu Feb 27 said:
> 
> 
> > mathis @ Thu 27 Feb said:
> ...



Glad we cleared that up.... :wink:


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 27, 2014)

The answer to the OP's question #3 is no. Not viable, you need a second 'job' like teaching. That doesn't mean that one shouldn't go for it, be passionate about writing for these forms. Just be realistic about the chances of making a good income from it.


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