# Who broke the film music rules ?



## SergeD (Jun 4, 2011)

Hello,

While reading this topic with great interest (thanks to mverta) http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21400

a question I had when viewing "A Fistful of Dollars", came back to my mind. In music books, about the 20th Century, we can read :

Since the seventeenth century music had been based on tonality (music being in a key). Then in 1894 came "Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune" which didn't seem to have a tonal center and home key. 

So, in some manner, is "A Fistful of Dollars" broke the way of making music films ? 

- The making of the music (Music paragraph in the links)
- Orchestration (like using electric guitar along with traditional instruments) 
- Many themes developed instead of having variations on a main music theme. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fistful_of_dollars
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For_a_Few_Dollars_More
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Good,_ ... d_the_Ugly


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## David Story (Jun 4, 2011)

Interesting questions Serge!

1. The making of the music
Composing before the film is finished has a long history, from Charlie Chaplin to Steven Spielberg to Chris Nolan to Terrence Malick. And that doesn't include musicals, that must have the music done first. If the director respects music, the composer comes on early.

2. Orchestration
Anything goes in film. Morricone was innovative in using electric instruments in a western. I love the way he blends yodeling, ocarinas, spanish guitar; it's unique.

3. Many themes developed 
This is actually the norm. Monothematic score are more rare. Where did you hear that that was a rule?


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## JonFairhurst (Jun 4, 2011)

How about The Third Man (1949)?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_third_man#Score


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## David Story (Jun 4, 2011)

JonFairhurst @ Sat Jun 04 said:


> How about The Third Man (1949)?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_third_man#Score



Awesome score! ONE instrument is enough, and for a studio feature.


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## SergeD (Jun 4, 2011)

David, in the 50's films in variations like "the guy kiss the girl", "to guys are fighting", "the girl is crying" we could recognize the main theme behind the situations . In "A Fistful of Dollars" I have the feeling of a larger range.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMPJZGoW ... re=related

Nice find Jon. Really strange, the spirit of this music is like the root of Sicilian mafia movies music.


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## David Story (Jun 4, 2011)

SergeD @ Sat Jun 04 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMPJZGoW ... re=related
> 
> Nice find Jon. Really strange, the spirit of this music is like the root of Sicilian mafia movies music.



Also the spaghetti westerns are as much Italian in spirit as American. Eg long dramatic scenes with highly emotional music.


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## JonFairhurst (Jun 4, 2011)

If you haven't seen The Third Man, I highly recommend it - as well as the full length documentary about how it was made.

Shot in Vienna shortly after the war, it gives an intimate portrayal of how it must have been to live in Europe at that time. The city was divided into different sectors, there was no government yet established, the black market ruled. It was a desperate situation...

Joseph Cotton is wonderfully understated as the protagonist, and Orson Welles - the bad guy - doesn't show up until about half way through the film. The cinematography is fantastic. It was made there because one of the producers had his money tied up in Austria. He essentially laundered the cash into a film.

If you ever meet anybody from Vienna, mention that you have seen this film, and you will instantly have a lot in common. There isn't a person in Austria who doesn't know it.


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## David Story (Jun 4, 2011)

This Bernard Herrmann score from 1951 made new rules:

http://bit.ly/iJ1gXe

The Day The Earth Stood Still is the father of science fiction scores. The film itself had even more sound design elements in the score. Including an electric quartet making fx with the orchestra.

What Morricone did for the western, Herrmann did for scifi, imho.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 5, 2011)

Vangelis. He made synths sing and cry in a film like no one else (thank you CS80), and when I see him in his studio, surrounded by gear (but 30 years ago), I realize that, like many of us today, he wanted to be, and was, a one-man orchestra.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 5, 2011)

Zimmer. He made it OK for composers to treat the orchestra like a serious rock band. He makes the orchestra sexy (what bass!).


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## David Story (Jun 5, 2011)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sun Jun 05 said:


> Vangelis. He made synths sing and cry in a film like no one else (thank you CS80), and when I see him in his studio, surrounded by gear (but 30 years ago), I realize that, like many of us today, he wanted to be, and was, a one-man orchestra.



Ned, I like you, and I like Vangelis.
Why would anyone want to be a one man orchestra?! It's sounds lonely.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 5, 2011)

Check this live soundtrack improvisation, peeps (1971, no computers, no softies). This is us - but with more talent, and physical instruments:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Wwk-EbxK88


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## JonFairhurst (Jun 5, 2011)

Forbidden Planet (1956) should also be in the conversation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbidden_ ... Soundtrack


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## Ed (Jun 5, 2011)

Vangelis was best in his BladeRunner days IMO, not that I really followed a lot of his work. 

Its *amazing *how expressive he made those synths.

And Morricone was brilliant, I watched those old Westerns recently and it was amazing how modern parts sounded.


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## David Story (Jun 5, 2011)

JonFairhurst @ Sun Jun 05 said:


> Forbidden Planet (1956) should also be in the conversation:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbidden_ ... Soundtrack



A cool film with the first all electronic score. Sound design, really.

2001 is open to a wide spectrum of interpretation, the score is unique:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y15NnGZI ... re=related


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## SergeD (Jun 6, 2011)

Vangelis also very good in 1492.


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## Dave Connor (Jun 6, 2011)

A Streetcar Named Desired is historically recognized as the breaking of the Hollywood film score mold (1951) Alex North's Jazz based score was just completely different.

Happy to see Forbidden Planet named above: a fully electronic score in a mainstream film which remained rare for decades and really still is. A great score too.


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## skyy38 (Aug 8, 2011)

Jerry Goldsmith-Planet Of The Apes.

And some guy I've never heard of named Francesco De Masi, did something way cool for the climatic fight scene in Lone Wolf McQuade.

He was using the usual spaghetti western conventions but when the sequence really intensified, he decided the only way he could top a trumpet was with a pipe organ!

Genius stuff!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 8, 2011)

Are there any great composers who "followed the rules?"

John Williams may define "the rules," but listen to Missouri Breaks and Images, for example. They don't follow any conventions I've heard of.


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## poseur (Aug 24, 2011)

huh.
¿f••• the rules; are there really rules?
¿would someone please PM to me a .pdf of 'em?

here is my own wee rulebook, for today;
{NB: i may erase the page, though, in the next 37minutes..... tomorrow's another day, after all.}

*rule 1:* find some things you love and/or respect in the film.
*rule 1:* know your film, story, pace, characters, context & boss' perspective & intent.
*rule 1:* serve your film, story, pace, characters, context & boss' perspective & intent.
*rule 1:* do not, by any stretch of the imagination, utterly dismiss nor ignore
your own musico-filmic intent, intelligence, knowledge &/or dignity.
*rule 1:* _copy_ no-one.

of course, i'm not "great", so.....
take that all with a bowl of soup.
you need soup, anyways.
really! you do. i can tell.


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## David Story (Aug 24, 2011)

poseur @ Wed Aug 24 said:


> you need soup, anyways.
> really! you do. i can tell.



+1
Time for soup.


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## Jimbo 88 (Aug 25, 2011)

WHO fixed the film music rules???

that's the better question.


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