# Hi energy Epic cinematic piece (exclusive album reject)



## dannymc (Mar 17, 2016)

hi guys i recently had the opportunity to contribute to an exclusive compilation album release. they didn't go for it in the end which was a bit disappointing but the back and forth constant changing for the client was great experience and i think helped in bringing my composing and production to the next level. imo its the best thing i've done so far. anyway let me know what you guys think. 

Danny


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## dannymc (Mar 25, 2016)

anyone any thoughts on this one?


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Mar 25, 2016)

Oh well,
you asked for it 

Well, your composition is pretty much that I can easily follow it which is good. BUT..I get bored to death after a while because you just repeat your statement over and over again without really building it up. And that is what is the problem I see here in such track. WHEN you repeat 2 minutes one statement you have to be able to do an elegant buildup which is here not the case. Ecspecially your percussions are not changing anyhow throughout the whole track. Even after that break where I expect something huge and broad, like a massive impact string / Brass and percussion wise: There is nothing changing at all. Maybe you can add a snaredrum ensemble? Marching Snares? That would help a bit. Also your glockenspiel..kick that out..or embedd it better "in" the sound. It is far upfront and doesn´t sound right at all in such an epic context. Also kick out your percussion in the very first beginning..safe it for later (35 seconds). Because why?  Because then it is still fresh. Another thing: Your horns are very static..they don´t increase and decrease in swell or lets say almost not. I find that does sound not good. Give them a bit more dynamics (use your modwheel!) ecspecially a kind of light decrescendo on the long notes. I also feel that they are too low in volume. Your Celli btw have too much bowstring sound which is not idiomatic for such a sound. Strings have to sound creamy and a bit more ambient you have to glue every section also better..some things here sound too much upfront like the dry strings, some others too ambient --> there is no spatial room coherence in your sound. You have to try with other micings and reverbs. Maybe you can use algor. reverb to glue the sections? Ecspecially your strings need some treatment here. Are those lines performed or programmed? Everything sounds so programmed to the grid..can you maybe perform your string ostinato? I mean everything else would also benefit from it..
Variation in tempo? Ever tried that? Or shorten Bars to gain interest?

Anyhow ...that is my opinion. It is not a bad track at all, and still hmm..very generic in some ways I have to say. Maybe you can gain interest also in having some real more variation in melody / harmony also. And where is the high energy? When I read High energy I want to be energized from my feet, up to my ass !  I don´t feel that. Give me more here. Some brutal bang in my face! Then I feel energized. Know the ultimate Warrior? Look how he looks like and looks at you and then keep that in mind and go work on your track.


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## Bradley Swaff (Mar 26, 2016)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Oh well,
> you asked for it
> 
> Well, your composition is pretty much that I can easily follow it which is good. BUT..I get bored to death after a while because you just repeat your statement over and over again without really building it up. And that is what is the problem I see here in such track. WHEN you repeat 2 minutes one statement you have to be able to do an elegant buildup which is here not the case. Ecspecially your percussions are not changing anyhow throughout the whole track. Even after that break where I expect something huge and broad, like a massive impact string / Brass and percussion wise: There is nothing changing at all. Maybe you can add a snaredrum ensemble? Marching Snares? That would help a bit. Also your glockenspiel..kick that out..or embedd it better "in" the sound. It is far upfront and doesn´t sound right at all in such an epic context. Also kick out your percussion in the very first beginning..safe it for later (35 seconds). Because why?  Because then it is still fresh. Another thing: Your horns are very static..they don´t increase and decrease in swell or lets say almost not. I find that does sound not good. Give them a bit more dynamics (use your modwheel!) ecspecially a kind of light decrescendo on the long notes. I also feel that they are too low in volume. Your Celli btw have too much bowstring sound which is not idiomatic for such a sound. Strings have to sound creamy and a bit more ambient you have to glue every section also better..some things here sound too much upfront like the dry strings, some others too ambient --> there is no spatial room coherence in your sound. You have to try with other micings and reverbs. Maybe you can use algor. reverb to glue the sections? Ecspecially your strings need some treatment here. Are those lines performed or programmed? Everything sounds so programmed to the grid..can you maybe perform your string ostinato? I mean everything else would also benefit from it..
> ...


Alexander.... I was just wondering if you have or plan on doing any tutorials in the future. I really enjoy following your posts. Thanks.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Mar 26, 2016)

Bradley Swaff said:


> Alexander.... I was just wondering if you have or plan on doing any tutorials in the future. I really enjoy following your posts. Thanks.



Not really. I thought about that in the past but never considered doing such things. Not sure also if there is any interest by others. I hope Danny takes my critic here not too negative and work on that few things because I believe he can make with a few adjustments a huge improvement of his track.


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## wst3 (Mar 26, 2016)

a slightly different take - I think Alexander did a pretty good job describing the repetitive problem, and I think he is right, you do need to add/subtract/change elements to hold or build interest. I thought the string sounds were good, a bit different is (almost) always good, and I liked your choices. I'm also pretty sure I'd leave the brass just the way they are in terms of placement, but they were kinda static, even fixing that could help with the build up.

Since I have no idea for what this was planned I could be way off base here, but as a stand-alone track it does need some massaging to keep it interesting. That is one of the most difficult challenges I find for instrumental work, especially for live theatre - I need to change things up a little bit to keep them "moving", but I have to be careful not to interrupt, distract, or overwhelm (all of which I've managed at one time or another!)


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## dannymc (Mar 27, 2016)

> Oh well,
> you asked for it



ha ha boy i certainly did ask for it  actually Alex myself and i"m guessing all learning amateurs like me really appreciate professional constructive feedback from guys such as yourself. this is the only way we can get better.



> Well, your composition is pretty much that I can easily follow it which is good. BUT..I get bored to death after a while because you just repeat your statement over and over again without really building it up. And that is what is the problem I see here in such track.



to be honest i would never of wrote the track this way but i had to follow a brief and reference tracks and to be honest thats how they were structured, 2mins of pretty much one idea looping. in fact i really struggled to keep taking things out and focus on one idea for 2mins. the client wanted the one idea building and building which i tried to pull off, wasn't enough in the end.




> Another thing: Your horns are very static..they don´t increase and decrease in swell or lets say almost not. I find that does sound not good. Give them a bit more dynamics (use your modwheel!) ecspecially a kind of light decrescendo on the long notes.



i'm surprised by this, i actually did have mod wheel automation on my horns in there, maybe my curves are not exaggerated enough?



> Your Celli btw have too much bowstring sound which is not idiomatic for such a sound. Strings have to sound creamy and a bit more ambient you have to glue every section also better..some things here sound too much upfront like the dry strings, some others too ambient --> there is no spatial room coherence in your sound. You have to try with other micings and reverbs. Maybe you can use algor. reverb to glue the sections? Ecspecially your strings need some treatment here. Are those lines performed or programmed? Everything sounds so programmed to the grid..can you maybe perform your string ostinato?



thanks for this, i suppose the aim for me is not always to make the strings sound as realistic as possible, sometimes if the vibe and drive is right then that's enough for me but i"m guessing your tips would help the overall quality of the track. 



> Anyhow ...that is my opinion. It is not a bad track at all, and still hmm..very generic in some ways I have to say. Maybe you can gain interest also in having some real more variation in melody / harmony also.



yes i agree but the brief reference tracks were generic, in fact they didn't impress me at all but this is what they were using as references to what they wanted and so i tried to stick to that. i expect my composition ability will improve the more i compose and learn the theory. thanks again, all really good constructive feedback.

Danny


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## novaburst (Mar 27, 2016)

@dannymc so then when are we going to here the retake on this track or are you just going to forget it.

Are we going to here rework ?


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Mar 27, 2016)

dannymc said:


> ha ha boy i certainly did ask for it  actually Alex myself and i"m guessing all learning amateurs like me really appreciate professional constructive feedback from guys such as yourself. this is the only way we can get better.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Don´t know really what to add here but nevermind.


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## Dean (Mar 27, 2016)

dannymc said:


> to be honest i would never of wrote the track this way but i had to follow a brief and reference tracks and to be honest thats how they were structured, 2mins of pretty much one idea looping. in fact i really struggled to keep taking things out and focus on one idea for 2mins. the client wanted the one idea building and building which i tried to pull off, wasn't enough in the end.
> Danny



Danny, I did'nt have time to listen and missed your pm,..anyway just wanted to reply to this.
Alot of the time our job as a composer is to give the score what it needs instead of just what the client wants,...we get endless links,temp scores,notes,references and so on but we still have to interpret all that and try to find what the score actually needs,..its a fine line of course as trying something different,unexpected can cost you the gig BUT in my experience any time I stuck rigidly to a brief and gave the client exactly what I thought they wanted I never,ever got the gig,..its because I ignored my instincts and tried to please the director/producer and not the score,..I did'nt bring 'myself' to the project.

Just adding this as food for thought.  D


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## dannymc (Mar 28, 2016)

> I thought the string sounds were good, a bit different is (almost) always good, and I liked your choices. I'm also pretty sure I'd leave the brass just the way they are in terms of placement, but they were kinda static, even fixing that could help with the build up.



hi wst3, nice to get another perspective on my track. glad you liked the strings i know i need to work on my brass programming, i'm not long using brass so would be still a bit weak. 



> Since I have no idea for what this was planned I could be way off base here, but as a stand-alone track it does need some massaging to keep it interesting. That is one of the most difficult challenges I find for instrumental work, especially for live theatre - I need to change things up a little bit to keep them "moving", but I have to be careful not to interrupt, distract, or overwhelm (all of which I've managed at one time or another!)



yes i'm hoping this is an issue i will over come with experience and time 





> @dannymc so then when are we going to here the retake on this track or are you just going to forget it.
> 
> Are we going to here rework ?



hi novaburst, i'm actually sick to death of the track now since i had to do many many re-works for the client and still it didn't make it. also i want to try keep pace from now on and try write one track per week which is going well so far as it previously was taking me 3 weeks per track. but instead i'll take all the feedback received above and apply what i've learned to the next track. 



> Danny, I did'nt have time to listen and missed your pm,..anyway just wanted to reply to this.
> Alot of the time our job as a composer is to give the score what it needs instead of just what the client wants,...we get endless links,temp scores,notes,references and so on but we still have to interpret all that and try to find what the score actually needs,..its a fine line of course as trying something different,unexpected can cost you the gig BUT in my experience any time I stuck rigidly to a brief and gave the client exactly what I thought they wanted I never,ever got the gig,..its because I ignored my instincts and tried to please the director/producer and not the score,..I did'nt bring 'myself' to the project.
> 
> Just adding this as food for thought.  D



thanks Dean, good advice. this was the first time i ever tried to work from a brief so i was trying so hard to stick to the tracks referenced but at the same time add my own voice. a lot more difficult than i initially thought. its a bit disheartening when you think you've nailed it and they come back and say remove all that section and do x y and z instead, bigger more energy etc. these client people are hard to please ha ha 

Danny


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## Dean (Mar 29, 2016)

dannymc said:


> hi novaburst, i'm actually sick to death of the track now since i had to do many many re-works for the client and still it didn't make it. also i want to try keep pace from now on and try write one track per week which is going well so far as it previously was taking me 3 weeks per track. but instead i'll take all the feedback received above and apply what i've learned to the next track.
> Danny



Danny,
I really dont think this is the way to go while you're still learning the ropes,thats a quantity over quality approach. Much better to have 5 incredible tracks than 20 mediocre tracks.




dannymc said:


> thanks Dean, good advice. this was the first time i ever tried to work from a brief so i was trying so hard to stick to the tracks referenced but at the same time add my own voice. a lot more difficult than i initially thought. its a bit disheartening when you think you've nailed it and they come back and say remove all that section and do x y and z instead, bigger more energy etc. these client people are hard to please ha ha
> 
> Danny


youve probably learned more this way(the hard way) 
(I know youre kidding)I dont think the client is hard to please I just think as composers we have to dig deeper and find what theyre looking for,thats our job to make them trust us (even if theyre lunatics or give no guidance sometimes)Its not always possible of course,we may write what we think is the best music of our life but its supposed to be the best music for the film not for us.

ps: I had a quick listen,but overall as a track and mix I dont think it works.(I didnt give a critique as you said the track was the result of a heavily revised brief from a client.)
Alex was spot on anyway.My advice would be to pull the brakes a little and practice,write and revise over and over and over for another good while then post a few tracks.

Dont mean to sound harsh.  D


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Mar 29, 2016)

Dean said:


> Danny,
> I really dont think this is the way to go while you're still learning the ropes,thats a quantity over quality approach. Much better to have 5 incredible tracks than 20 mediocre tracks.
> 
> 
> ...


Definitely. And I would like to add more thoughts though I sworn myself not but I can´t resist: My critic was intended to help him that he gets next time the gig. There is a good reason why they rejected his track and I hear it in every bar. So Danny my advice: go and bite and work on that track again. I know it is not easy but in the end it helps you and brings you forward instead of leaving the field now and writing something new. I guarentee you that do the same mistakes again when you don´t do that.


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## SymphonicSamples (Mar 29, 2016)

Hey Danny , there's some great advice here from Dean and Alexander. I think all of us as composers have to deal with the obvious, it's hard to distance one self from a piece of music that has many hours work go into it creating it. I often listen to pieces as I write or at completion with the thought process, if this was written by a composer I admire, what would my honest thoughts be ? , or more over what would a musician I admire living or dead honestly think if they heard the piece. I've killed Beethoven many, many time over to date  , but always forcing myself to improve in some manner over time, at least that's the goal. Get a little space and take another run at the piece using the advice in the thread that resonated with you and see what you can come up with .


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## dannymc (Mar 29, 2016)

> Danny,
> I really dont think this is the way to go while you're still learning the ropes,thats a quantity over quality approach. Much better to have 5 incredible tracks than 20 mediocre tracks.



hi Dean the context of this is that i"ve recently started in the world of music libraries, mainly mid tier non-exclusives and unfortunately i found out to get any sort of traction in these places i need to get some level of volume/quantity out there. i'm not overly comfortable with the idea of having to make a minimum of 50 tracks to get any work but that seems to be the model.

at the end of the day i definitely want to be one of those composers who can stand over 5- 10 amazing tracks per year rather than 50 mediocre forgettable tracks ( in some cases composers are writing hundreds) but i guess i also want to try get some sort of CV going too. i know you told me before you never went down the music library route starting out so maybe its not the way to go? although i was recently chatting with Mark Petrie online and he started that way and progressed from there so i guess it can work for some. these replies have definitely given me food for thought so maybe i should re-think my strategy.

Alex, Matt & Dean thank you for your honest and helpful feedback. i'd rather pro composers be honest on where i need to improve rather than being stuck not progressing at all.

i will take another run at this track and take some time on it 

Danny


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## doctornine (Mar 29, 2016)

Well if you're aiming to make a living from library, I don't know *anybody* that can do that from 5 - 10 tracks a year, exclusive or otherwise.


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## Greg (Mar 29, 2016)

I'd spend more time learning / exploring / listening. Writing 50 generic epic tracks will just get you into a creative rut sounding like everyone else. The production music world is absolutely swamped with that style.

Having a unique voice, or extremely well produced and emotion provoking tracks is a much better approach than "the numbers game." Strive towards that.


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## Dean (Mar 29, 2016)

dannymc said:


> at the end of the day i definitely want to be one of those composers who can stand over 5- 10 amazing tracks per year rather than 50 mediocre forgettable tracks ( in some cases composers are writing hundreds) but i guess i also want to try get some sort of CV going too. i know you told me before you never went down the music library route starting out so maybe its not the way to go? although i was recently chatting with Mark Petrie online and he started that way and progressed from there so i guess it can work for some. these replies have definitely given me food for thought so maybe i should re-think my strategy.
> Danny



Hey Danny, Petrie is right too,..there are many ways 'in',..I didnt do any library work simply because I started out doing tv animation series and then one tv/film gig lead to another so library work just never came on my radar,..I only fell into trailer composition about 4 years ago,never thought about it untill then.I think library work is just not for me,(its not the pressure as working for a decade on 52 part animation series doing 3 episodes a week plus revisions was a musical bootcamp all on its own.)

Re library work: I think you should go for it,..it would be a great boot camp of sorts and youd learn heaps dealing wiith clients/revisions and deadlines /pressure..BUT I think you could hone your skills/writing/mixing before you start submitting tracks to libraries and albums just yet. D


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## Dean (Mar 29, 2016)

Greg said:


> I'd spend more time learning / exploring / listening. Writing 50 generic epic tracks will just get you into a creative rut sounding like everyone else. The production music world is absolutely swamped with that style.
> 
> Having a unique voice, or extremely well produced and emotion provoking tracks is a much better approach than "the numbers game." Strive towards that.



Howard Johnson is right! 

D


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## novaburst (Mar 29, 2016)

dannymc said:


> i will take another run at this track and take some time on it



Go for it, nice way to go


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## valyogennoff (Mar 29, 2016)

dannymc said:


> i will take another run at this track and take some time on it


Hi, Danny. This is very wise to do. And an awesome experience, too. I'm still learning myself, stumbling, getting up again, and taking advantage of the awesome pieces of advice by the incredible guys here.
The idea in the piece is good but try experimenting, and as others said, build the piece. Here's something I wrote for a contest. Every 8 bars I tried to build and introduce some sort of development. You can also try a modulation if you think the piece allows. Try distributing the melody among instruments.
https://drive.google.com/a/vumk.eu/file/d/0B-9_7An_uxx6eFdfMUk2UzVzMkE/view?usp=sharing
If you haven't yet, try taking some of Mike Verta's masterclasses. He's giving three for the price of two art the moment. And they are priceless. I've learnt a lot from him and I'm still learning. 
Blessings,
Valyo


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## dannymc (Mar 29, 2016)

> BUT I think you could hone your skills/writing/mixing before you start submitting tracks to libraries and albums just yet. D



thanks Dean. thats why i post my tracks here for feedback and believe me i try to take it all in. other than that how else are the best ways to go about honing these skills? is it just by trial and error and composing more and more?




> If you haven't yet, try taking some of Mike Verta's masterclasses. He's giving three for the price of two art the moment. And they are priceless. I've learnt a lot from him and I'm still learning.
> Blessings,



hi Valyogennoff, thanks for that. actually my next port of call was to start with mike verta's classes starting with composition 1 and orchestration 1. up to now i"ve been watching great tutorials on you-tube some of which are from members on this forum such as Daniel James, Alex Pheffer and Blakus all which have been great in getting me to this standard but i feel i still have way more to go especially in relation to writing/composition & mixing.

p.s. does mike cover how to make more convincing fast/action string/stacc/ostinato described by Alex previously in any of his master-classes?

Danny


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## valyogennoff (Mar 30, 2016)

dannymc said:


> p.s. does mike cover how to make more convincing fast/action string/stacc/ostinato described by Alex previously in any of his master-classes?


Yeah. The Composition and Orchestration series are a very good start. He's got a dedicated class on Action Scenes. He briefly covers ostinatos in Kickstarters too, especially with the idea how to start a piece. You can check here http://vi-control.net/community/thr...s-with-mike-verta-3-for-2-deal-back-on.27885/ for a full list of masterclasses.


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## dannymc (Mar 31, 2016)

> I'd spend more time learning / exploring / listening. Writing 50 generic epic tracks will just get you into a creative rut sounding like everyone else. The production music world is absolutely swamped with that style.
> 
> Having a unique voice, or extremely well produced and emotion provoking tracks is a much better approach than "the numbers game." Strive towards that.



hey Greg thanks you're absolutely right. 



> Yeah. The Composition and Orchestration series are a very good start. He's got a dedicated class on Action Scenes. He briefly covers ostinatos in Kickstarters too, especially with the idea how to start a piece. You can check here http://vi-control.net/community/thr...s-with-mike-verta-3-for-2-deal-back-on.27885/ for a full list of masterclasses.



great thanks Valyogennoff, gonna try pick these up over the weekend. 

Danny


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