# Sigma Orchestral Library - first mockup



## Pedro Camacho (Feb 2, 2009)

As some of you know, I have been making a library called Sigma.

I have been spending more time in dev on the strings.

I made a piece using it so I hope you enjoy it.


[mp3]http://www.musicbypedro.com/v4_music/drama/mp3/PMC_Last_Days_high.mp3[/mp3]

http://www.musicbypedro.com/v4_music/drama/mp3/PMC_Last_Days_high.mp3 (http://www.musicbypedro.com/v4_music/dr ... s_high.mp3)


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## koolkeys (Feb 2, 2009)

Wow, sounds very good. Forgive the ignorance, but is this a library you are going to release?

Brent


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## Pedro Camacho (Feb 2, 2009)

Thank you very much Brent!

No, I am not going to release.

Anyway this is still WIP so lots of stuff to improve!


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## koolkeys (Feb 2, 2009)

Well it sounds good regardless. Thanks for sharing!

Brent


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## artsoundz (Feb 2, 2009)

outstanding, Pedro.


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## Fernando Warez (Feb 2, 2009)

I'll give you a bag of Doritos for it! :lol: .....Just kidding! :wink: 


I really liked those violins sus notes. But i thought the staccatos sounded like samples. Those strings arpeggio passage are hard to pull with samples so it's probably a good idea to avoid in a demo. I like the strings in general.

Overall, I'd say it sounds good. And It's good to see more orchestra coming on the market! 

How much? :mrgreen:


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## Pedro Camacho (Feb 2, 2009)

thanks guys!

Well definitely there things to improve here.


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## Audun Jemtland (Feb 2, 2009)

Understandable that you want to keep this custom lib. for yourself.
One question about Darwin The Monkey,"Darwin's Spirit"...Is that african choir samples?
Are there really any african choirs out commercially?
Eric Persing if you see this:you mentioned african choir I think in the new Omnispehspere video,is that elements from heart of africa or?


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## Fernando Warez (Feb 2, 2009)

I'm curious to know how you recorded this lib? With musician in place? A small, medium or large studio?  

I think i like it but I'm in a strange mood today.. (o)


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## paoling (Feb 2, 2009)

Wonderful!


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## PolarBear (Feb 2, 2009)

I'm wondering about the incentive here... I don't hear too many things that couldn't be done with current libs. What would I expect from a personal library? To fill in gaps, that are not presented in current libs that make my life as composer easier, that allows me to do unconventional stuff. Yeah, some of it is there... But other things that are very well possible to be done with availible sounds.

Don't get me wrong. This is really nice sounding, and I'd love to have it and I'd love to have your experience with recording and editing it all. I'm just looking for a reason to justify all the money and effort going into it here...


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## AR (Feb 3, 2009)

Oi Pedro!


Now this is a library!!! The deepness in your sound is much better than heard in many other commercial libraries and comes much closer to real orchestra performance.

Don't pay attention to some jealous VSL user. Thats a huge instrument you got there! You can forget to recreate your mock-up with VSL, Sonic Implants or EW. I mean it's possible, but those libraries doesn't have your tone. (VSL users don't hate on me).

The only library I could imagine compared to yours is Symphobia (speaking of quality level).

Greets
AR


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## hbuus (Feb 3, 2009)

Both the strings and the brass have a dark colour to them which I like very much, and it sounds like the woodwinds have tons of emotional character.

I'm not sure what can and cannot be achieved with the existing libs out there, but this library of yours, Pedro, surely sounds brilliant.

Besides, the piece is well written.


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## germancomponist (Feb 3, 2009)

Sounds great, Pedro.



PolarBear @ Tue Feb 03 said:


> I'm wondering about the incentive here... I don't hear too many things that couldn't be done with current libs. What would I expect from a personal library? To fill in gaps, that are not presented in current libs that make my life as composer easier, that allows me to do unconventional stuff. Yeah, some of it is there... But other things that are very well possible to be done with availible sounds.
> 
> Don't get me wrong. This is really nice sounding, and I'd love to have it and I'd love to have your experience with recording and editing it all. I'm just looking for a reason to justify all the money and effort going into it here...



PolarBear, 

use your libs and use a best equalizer and other fine tools for any instrument and experiment, ... and you'll be amazed what you can do with your libs and what a great sound you can get! Than resample all your results/instruments, ready. o/~ 

Gunther

Gunther


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## Pedro Camacho (Feb 3, 2009)

Thank you so much to everyone for the nice words.

I am completely sure the library still has a lot to be finetuned so there are glitches here and there.

AR: you have such an excellent ear.

This library started because of my love and obsession in having the "perfect" strings.

And yes Symphobia was used as one of the main models in terms of sonic quality. In fact I have some parts of symphobia strings layered in the library.

PolarBear:
I agree with you, yet I wanted something more unique (different sound) and with some extra details no other commercial lib has.


Btw, the Duduk you hear in the middle is from TARI's libraries.


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## Pedro Camacho (Feb 3, 2009)

audun jemtland @ Tue Feb 03 said:


> One question about Darwin The Monkey,"Darwin's Spirit"...Is that african choir samples?



I just noticed your question now! The problem is that I really don't remember where I got the samples, or where they are. But it was sampled!


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## Ashermusic (Feb 3, 2009)

This library sounds lovely, Pedro.


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## hbuus (Feb 3, 2009)

Hey look what I got! /\~O =>

*sneaked in and took a copy of Sigma while Pedro was out walking the dog!*

0oD


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## madbulk (Feb 3, 2009)

Sounds great, Pedro.


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## Pedro Camacho (Feb 3, 2009)

hbuus @ Tue Feb 03 said:


> Hey look what I got! /\~O =>
> 
> *sneaked in and took a copy of Sigma while Pedro was out walking the dog!*
> 
> 0oD



HAha!!

Thank you for your nice comments.

There are, however, many many things to tweak here until they sound really good.


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## artsoundz (Feb 3, 2009)

given that the subject of personal strings libraries have come up more than once, I am really intrigued w/ the process of how you, Pedro, and Tj and friends created the libraries.

If you get a moment, it would be fascinating to tell us about the process of creating this library. Maybe a separate new thread so the PP guys can chime in w/ their experience as well. 

Those low strings are so rich...


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## Hannes_F (Feb 3, 2009)

Pedro, I think you have a very good sense for that, congrats to your sound and you ear.

Perhaps the loud passages would benefit if you reduced the level by 3 dB or so, just an idea.

How high runs n?


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## Hans Adamson (Feb 3, 2009)

Pedro,

The library sounds beautiful, and so does your music. I listened through the whole composition. The theme is reminiscent of "Gracias a la vida" (Violeta Parra), but your piece stands on its own because of many qualities, among them a sensitivity for the subtle, which I like.


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## Hal (Feb 3, 2009)

i love the sound
any info about the number of players ?
sounds like 12 violin
4+ basses..?

the piano sounds great too very naturel


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## Pedro Camacho (Feb 4, 2009)

Hannes_F @ Wed Feb 04 said:


> Perhaps the loud passages would benefit if you reduced the level by 3 dB or so, just an idea.



Thank you Hannes for hearing!

This mix has no compression/limiting so the loud parts became actually too loud.

Also I think I did not made the best decisions regarding orchestration in some tutti occasions.



Hans Adamson @ Wed Feb 04 said:


> Pedro,
> 
> The library sounds beautiful, and so does your music. I listened through the whole composition. The theme is reminiscent of "Gracias a la vida" (Violeta Parra), but your piece stands on its own because of many qualities, among them a sensitivity for the subtle, which I like.



Thank you for listening to the whole thing Hans!

I do believe the piece can be reminiscent of something but I really never heard about Gracias a la vida!

The music I hear most of the time is concert music, not film music, and we all know film music tries to copy concert music. 

But I am glad you enjoyed it and thought it stood out on its own!



artsoundz @ Tue Feb 03 said:


> given that the subject of personal strings libraries have come up more than once, I am really intrigued w/ the process of how you, Pedro, and Tj and friends created the libraries.
> 
> If you get a moment, it would be fascinating to tell us about the process of creating this library. Maybe a separate new thread so the PP guys can chime in w/ their experience as well.
> 
> Those low strings are so rich...



Btw, I did this library with a ton of help from Tari, his feedback and testing was simply precious 

This library stands no chance vs PP. PP is 100% made from scratch.


My concept when I started this was really different:

"Do not try to reinvent the wheel" / "If you can't beat them, join them"


It all started with symphobia. Man I love the sound of that library. It is just a huge HUGE pity that is was recorded in ensembles ONLY. (I love the ensemble concept BUT having at least the strings recorded alone too, would be like a dream).

This way my initial idea was, ok I will do whatever it takes to "complete" symphobia in every strings section.

the other library that complements Symphobia quite well is SI. So my first work was to join both, using what each of them had best. That meant removing some SI samples, replacing with Symphobia samples and vice versa, editing some stuff, tons of patch editing inside Kontakt, etc, etc, etc and having in mind that I would have to record whatever necessary to fill the gaps. 

I did not wanted to make any instrument sound "oversized" as well (wanted an intimate sound in the pp - mf range) and wanted that whatever the source it was, it all sounded from one source only.

I confess that in some parts samples I had to use EQ like crazy to make sure everything would fit it.


Then the programming was with one goal only for the ultimate flexibility:

Only have one midi channel per instrument.


This way I made one huge kontakt 3 patch per instrument where all articulations were controlled by a specific CC 

If the CC is between 0 and 10 the articulations is turned off, if CC is between 11 and 127, it is turned on with the volume progressively higher.


Also the library has 3 layers (I promise I had this idea before I ever heard about LASS) so I can turn on any of the layers with another CC and even mix then in real time. Same concept: CC 0-10 = OFF CC 11 - 127 = progressively louder

This is also good because in real time I can mix in Staccato and a slight bit of Spicatto (or marcato) in real time. I just press record and turn the knobs to mix in the stuff to get a more powerful attack.

Regarding Staccato I can add Staccato, Marcatto (and one extra layer just for this matter) all 3 layers and get a huge sounding staccato.

I did separate Sustain and Espressivo so that each one has a different kind of vibrato and attacks.

Well this was the concept for all instruments.

Woodwinds were made using SI WW sounds as base. I do love SI winds so the concept is the same, fill in the gaps, program the legatos, customize SIPS (the one that comes with SI K2 version is already very good, though).

Brass is the worse part of the library for now since I had little time with it.


So this was my concept.


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## dannthr (Feb 4, 2009)

Very good job, Pedro, of reprogramming existing libraries--I hope your time was well spent, since most of us do exactly the same thing without all the pizzaz of creating patches with special Kontakt face-plate imagery.


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## Pedro Camacho (Feb 4, 2009)

I know you have been reprogramming libraries too. 

Sigma is not just library reprogramming though. It has custom recordings in it, and the final result simply feels, plays and sounds different than any commercial library so that is why I called it Sigma.

Also Sigma (Σ) is the summation operator in mathematics. So this is also another reason why I call it that way.


Don't get me wrong, I don't need and I don't mean in any way to drag any kind of extra attention from people. I did the library to myself and to make my life easier but I thought I should share the sound with the world and get some feedback.


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## artsoundz (Feb 4, 2009)

hey man, thanks or doing that. Really interesting.


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## PolarBear (Feb 4, 2009)

Hey Pedro, I think I got some of it wrong in the first place... I thought that major parts were newly recorded, but from your detailed post I think it's the opposite, that you just recorded supplementary parts and basic stuff is reprogrammed and combinations of commercial libraries... In that I can't see anything wrong and would well understand your incentive. Actually it's a bit like an advanced template plus a few (well how much now, half of it, just a few, or the majority, I simply don't know...) effect recordings.

Though I'm still wondering in some staccato repetitions getting some machine gunny sound and legato passages being very espressivo but not too legato. So that's still some things to do there...


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## Hannes_F (Feb 4, 2009)

Pedro Camacho @ Wed Feb 04 said:


> Also Sigma (Σ) is the summation operator in mathematics. So this is also another reason why I call it that way.



This is why I asked how high n runs. You gave the answer: three


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## Michael_Jan (Feb 4, 2009)

Nice

muito bom pedro


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## Pedro Camacho (Feb 4, 2009)

Hannes_F @ Wed Feb 04 said:


> This is why I asked how high n runs. You gave the answer: three




Aaahhhhhhhhhh 
Actually it is four.

It does feel gunny, even though it has RRx 7, the line is also extremely repetitive in the composition (not the common line you hear in mockups, since you repeat the same note tons of times).


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## synergy543 (Feb 5, 2009)

Pedro, how do you incorporate commercial libs that have copy-protection or that utilize their own separate players (most these days)?

I used to make Multi's in Kontakt with many different libraries (that "used" to be all Kontakt friendly) and find this very difficult today - the only way to create such combinations is to combine several different tracks within the host sequencer which doesn't give you the programming control, performance control nor ability to save easily as a single program.

So the only alternative I see is to re-sample parts I want to use note-by-note, layer-by-layer to make Kontakt friendly versions which seems like a dreadful waste of time even if I used Redmatica. Compiling, organizing, and reconstructing seems like a task for an army of librarian assistants, not a single composer. 

So I'm wondering how you handle this?


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## synergy543 (Feb 5, 2009)

PolarBear @ Thu Feb 05 said:


> Well, I'd guess if it was for re-sampling a library you could write a midi file getting every articulation and batch cutting it again according to that midi file... and you'll have a quite automated process...


My understanding is that this is what Redmatica does. I think it records and slices and dices the samples up.



PolarBear @ Thu Feb 05 said:


> besides, you have to reprogram it, and you have to stick with what comes out of the player and can't treat the actual recorded samples if there's copy protection.


Re-programming a patch shouldn't take long at all. Its the editing above that takes me longer. So if Redmatica handles the job, I may start dicing up some of my libs. 'Cause I'm so sick and tired of all the damn copy-protection schemes having install issues as I migrate from my G5 to my MacPro. It seems that half the time, I need to write e-mails to support and there are many cases where one company just blames the other. So me, the paying customer, just gets bandied about and I'm rather sick of it.

However, aside from the upgrade incompatibilities, and companies dropping support (before getting a good working solution down pat) what bothers me the most is the way that all of these new players inhibit creative mixing of various patches and libs. I don't mind the copy-protection and paying foròÊR   ”cíÊR   ”cîÊR   ”cïÊR   ”cðÊR   ”cñÊR   ”còÊR   ”cóÊR   ”côÊR   ”cõÊR   ”cöÊR   ”c÷ÊR   ”cøÊR   ”cùÊR   ”cúÊR   ”cûÊR   ”cüÊR   ”cýÊR   ”cþÊR   ”cÿÊR   ”d ÊR   ”dÊR   ”dÊR   ”dÊR   ”dÊR   ”dÊR   ”dÊR   ”dÊR   ”dÊR   ”d	ÊR   ”d
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## Pedro Camacho (Feb 7, 2009)

synergy543 @ Thu Feb 05 said:


> Pedro, how do you incorporate commercial libs that have copy-protection or that utilize their own separate players (most these days)?



I used only Kontakt Based libraries for this.

The copy protected ones is simple, I just leave them in a separate Kontakt Patch, with all the edits that I need and assign the same Midi Channel to them.

In fact you have have like 64 patches on a Kontakt VST instance, but you can only have 16 Midi channels.


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## alphabetgreen (Feb 7, 2009)

AR @ Tue 03 Feb said:


> Oi Pedro!
> 
> 
> Now this is a library!!! The deepness in your sound is much better than heard in many other commercial libraries and comes much closer to real orchestra performance.
> ...



_"The only library I could imagine compared to yours is Symphobia (speaking of quality level)."_

Would you say the Symphobia are better than VSL then? If so, big difference in price.

Back to this library:

Words can't describe how impressed I am. The sound is big and juicy, without that horrible collective Hollywood timbre that EW do.

Why wouldn't you market such a product? It's almost immoral to deprive composers of a quality tool like this. :? 

Nice quick composition too!


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## Pedro Camacho (Feb 8, 2009)

alphabetgreen @ Sat Feb 07 said:


> Would you say the Symphobia are better than VSL then? If so, big difference in price.
> 
> Back to this library:
> 
> ...



Hello Simon I heard your music and I loved it, I think you have great sense of composition.

What people often forget in this forum is that the best composer is not the one that makes the best mockup, but the best in combining notes that, once played by a real orchestra, will sound extremely great and original.

I hear tons of great sounding music around here that would be like complete trash to any composition teacher I had.

Anyway, moving forward, Symphobia sounds much better than VSL but it is extremely limited when compared to VSL.

Thank you for enjoying my work (it is a film soundtrack, so in terms of composition I am always a bit more limited in my language.)

Once Sigma becomes 100% made of my own samples (might take quite some time -- years) I will probably think about selling it. Until then I can't sell it because it has other libraries mixed in.


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## Pedro Camacho (Feb 8, 2009)

Btw, Simon, since I see you like counterpoint a lot I will invite you to listen to a counterpoint piece I did in my first year as student, in 1998, 11 years ago (wow....)

It is a 5 voice counterpoint piece using all the rules from renaissance counterpoint.

http://www.musicbypedro.com/music/Kyrie_Eleyson.mp3


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## alphabetgreen (Feb 8, 2009)

Thanks Pedro, I don't know what to say. I've just listened to your Kyrie, and it's gorgeous. Live voices too. I had to wait until my second year before I could study the rudiments of renaissance counterpoint, but it was well worth the wait. You weren't kidding when you said you abided by the rules, were you? You've even stuck to the traditional 16th century method of cadencing, using the appropriate cantisans, altisans, tenorisans and bassisans (and most importantly, leaving out the third in the final chord). It really was an illuminating module - Renaissance counterpoint, so much different from the Baroque counterpoint that was later developed by the tonal masters of the 18th century, which is equally as rivetting and just as much fun to compose with.

That's what I really miss about university, and that's the amount of capable musicians and singers that were willing to perform whatever music you composed. Now, these days, it's up to us to rely on technology and production skills, so I have to admit that, when sometimes I posted my music on this forum, I was a bit saddened to be confronted with views on my production skills as opposed to my composition abilities, although I gratefully accepted the advice and will continue to try and improve my mock-ups. It seems that this forum, where virtual production is concerned, is end of the line in quality and standard, so if the guys on here say that one's mock-up is merely satisfactory or OK, then it means that it will sound absolutely brilliant to the tone deaf public.

I just listened to your film piece again, and apart from the brilliant fidelity and production of it, it is also a great composition. The employment of dynamics and the angularity of the melody is really quite original. 

I'm developing an interest in Symphobia ever since I read this particular thread. When you say that it is extremely limited compared to VSL, aren't most libraries, even EWQLSO (I can't stand that Hollywoodish sound that EWQLSO make, by the way)? I mean, would there be enough tools and scope in Symphobia to recreate, say, the storm in Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony, or Mars, the Bringer of War by Gustav Holst? Bearing in mind that VSL's symphonic cube is virtually limitless.

I didn't realise at first that you had constructed the Sigma library from other existing libraries, that's why I put forward the question about marketing it. Sorry about that.

Cheers,

Simon


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## Pedro Camacho (Feb 12, 2009)

alphabetgreen @ Sun Feb 08 said:


> You weren't kidding when you said you abided by the rules, were you?



No I wasn't!

I actually did not made even any forth interval (except on controlled and properly resolved dissonances) because the human ear at that time considered that as a dissonance. 

Yes, Baroque counterpoint is quite different but it is somehow related nevertheless.

Sound quality IS important for any composer nowadays, and in this forum you get some of the best feedback in terms of that.


I am very happy that you enjoyed my piece on that film. I do think there are many many things to be improved though.


I think there is an important thing you have to know about samples.

Think of them as a palette of colors and each library has different colors.
Don't try to make a green library sound red. 

Symphobia is limited but for some certain types of music Symphobia is all you need and you can't get any better than that.

What I mean is, like Troels once said here, respect the nature of each sample and don't try to make something out of it that it wasn't meant to be.

Composing with samples, means you are limited to certain possibilities depending on how large your sonic palette is.

There is no single all in one library that will let you make everything perfect.


I do think Symphobia was made with common modern film orchestrations and used articulations in mind. VSL was made with the classical composer in mind a lot.

So for pure "classical" composition, VSL might be better.


Cheers,

-Pedro


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## alphabetgreen (Feb 12, 2009)

_"I actually did not made even any forth interval (except on controlled and properly resolved dissonances) because the human ear at that time considered that as a dissonance."_

Yes, I remember the dreaded 4th interval to be avoided at all costs, aòÎ9   •AŒÎ9   •AÎ9   •AŽÎ9   •AÎ9   •AÎ9   •A‘Î9   •A’Î9   •A“Î9   •A”Î9   •A•Î9   •A–Î:   •A—Î:   •A˜Î:   •A™Î:   •AšÎ:   •A›Î:   •AœÎ:   •AÎ:   •AžÎ:   •AŸÎ:   •A Î:   •A¡Î:   •A¢Î:   •A£Î:   •A¤Î:   •A¥Î:   •A¦Î:   •A§Î:   •A¨Î:   •A©Î:   •AªÎ:   •A«Î:   •A¬Î:   •A­Î:   •A®Î:   •A¯Î:   •A°Î:   •A±Î:   •A²Î:   •A³Î:   •A´Î:   •AµÎ:   •A¶Î:   •A·Î:   •A¸Î:   •A¹Î:   •AºÎ:   •A»Î:   •A¼Î:   •A½Î:   •A¾Î:   •A¿Î:   •AÀÎ:   •AÁÎ:   •AÂÎ:   •AÃÎ:   •AÄÎ:   •AÅÎ:   •AÆÎ:   •AÇÎ:   •AÈÎ:   •AÉÎ:   •AÊÎ:   •AËÎ:   •AÌÎ:   •AÍÎ:   •AÎÎ:   •AÏÎ:   •AÐÎ:   •AÑÎ:   •AÒÎ:   •AÓÎ:   •AÔÎ:   •AÕÎ:   •AÖÎ:   •A×Î:   •AØÎ:   •AÙÎ:   •AÚÎ:   •AÛÎ:   •AÜÎ:   •AÝÎ:   •AÞÎ:   •AßÎ:   •AàÎ:   •AáÎ:   •AâÎ:   •AãÎ:   •AäÎ:   •AåÎ:   •AæÎ:   •AçÎ:   •AèÎ:   •AéÎ:   •AêÎ:   •AëÎ:   •AìÎ:   •AíÎ:   •AîÎ:   •AïÎ:   •AðÎ:   •AñÎ:   •AòÎ:   •AóÎ:   •AôÎ:   •AõÎ:   •AöÎ:   •A÷Î:   •AøÎ:   •AùÎ:   •AúÎ:   •Aû              òÎ:   •AýÎ:   •AþÎ:   •AÿÎ:   •B Î:   •BÎ:   •BÎ:   •BÎ:   •BÎ:   •BÎ:   •BÎ:   •BÎ:   •BÎ:   •B	Î:   •B
Î:   •BÎ:   •BÎ:   •B Î:   •BÎ:   •BÎ:   •BÎ;   •BÎ;   •BÎ;   •BÎ;   •BÎ;   •BÎ;   •BÎ;   •BÎ;   •BÎ;   •BÎ;   •BÎ;   •BÎ;   •BÎ;   •BÎ;   •BÎ;   •BÎ;   •B Î;   •B!Î;   •B"Î;   •B#Î;   •B$Î;   •B%Î;   •B&Î;   •B'Î;   •B(Î;   •B)Î;


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## Pedro Camacho (Feb 13, 2009)

Yes, Persichetti is quite right!

Try playing 50 chords like C F# B and other variations and other more complex stuff and then in the middle make a simple major chord. You won't believe how dissonant that major chord will sound.

My website:

http://www.musicbypedro.com/


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## alphabetgreen (Feb 13, 2009)

Pedro Camacho @ Fri 13 Feb said:


> Yes, Persichetti is quite right!
> 
> Try playing 50 chords like C F# B and other variations and other more complex stuff and then in the middle make a simple major chord. You won't believe how dissonant that major chord will sound.
> 
> ...



I'm sure it would. C, F# and B must be the most conventionally dissonant triad in existence, what with an augmented 4th, a perfect 4th and a major 7th to contend with.

Thanks for the address. I look forward to listening to some of your music later on today.


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