# How do you know which key to compose in to fit the scene?



## bwmusic (Feb 1, 2015)

Not sure if this question has been asked before here. Apologies if it has!

I always seem to have a bias starting in C or G for almost everything. To me it seems to fit, but maybe I'm not doing this right. Is there a particular recipe in choosing a key to compose in when you have to fit the music to a scene or mood?


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 1, 2015)

No recipe, just write decent music in any key you like. And if black keys are not your thing, remember that you're missing out on half the fun.


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## Sebastianmu (Feb 1, 2015)

If you are writing for orchestra, it depends on what the instruments are supposed to play. A horn theme can sound good in a certain key and terrible in another for example. Besides that, there are no general rules. If you are writing 90 minutes of music for a film, you just might find it a little too boring if every cue is in either c or g.

Cheers,
Sebastian


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## Reegs (Feb 1, 2015)

Sebastianmu @ Sun Feb 01 said:


> If you are writing for orchestra, it depends on what the instruments are supposed to play. A horn theme can sound good in a certain key and terrible in another for example.



Piggy backing on this, working in the midi realm allows us to rapidly play around with the key after we've written it to see if a there's a better sounding option! Timbre and tuning and what-not.

Pit orchestra looooves to put everything in keys where I swear there are more sharps than notes. If you're not writing for a musical, please be nice to your musicians and avoid B or C# major. (And G-flat, for that matter).


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 1, 2015)

Cb is the worst!


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## chillbot (Feb 1, 2015)

Other factors to consider:

I like to use the low A on the piano for tension. Actually the G# is even better (just transpose the low A down 1/2 step if your sampled piano goes that low). The G below that can be good too, though a little muddy. Basically I like to write a lot of tension or sinsister stuff in the G# to B range.

With my favorite timpani samples (I think it's EW but I forget), C is the lowest note. If I want big boomy timpanis, any key from C up to F or G is pretty good, but I wouldn't write in Bb or B because then the timpani will be weak. My favorite low horns also cut off at C, though sometimes I work around this by pitch-bending the C down to Bb or B.

If you're using electric bass and you want to hit those low notes, same thing... C# to F is a good range. G# and A are pretty mediocre in my opinion for electric bass, you won't get that low note you feel in your chest on the tonic. Same with electric guitar.

There's a ton more examples like this, write to your samples. If you were writing for live orch you write to the limits of the instruments so treat your samples the same way.

Personally I find C#m to be my favorite all-around key that fits the majority of my samples nicely.


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## chillbot (Feb 1, 2015)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sun Feb 01 said:


> No recipe, just write decent music in any key you like. And if black keys are not your thing, remember that you're missing out on half the fun.


As a keyboard player I think I write 90% of the time in one of the five black keys, they just fit my hands so much better than the white keys. Is this just me?


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## The Darris (Feb 1, 2015)

One of the things I do is figure out the natural range of the main characters' voices. I will be fitting the music around these during dialogue so I am not muddying it up. I like to work in the same key through out so once I've established a good key that works with the characters, then I am set for the rest of the film.


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## Sebastianmu (Feb 1, 2015)

chillbot @ Sun Feb 01 said:


> As a keyboard player I think I write 90% of the time in one of the five black keys, they just fit my hands so much better than the white keys. Is this just me?



Same here! Esp. c-sharp.


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## willbedford (Feb 1, 2015)

The Darris @ Sun Feb 01 said:


> One of the things I do is figure out the natural range of the main characters' voices. I will be fitting the music around these during dialogue so I am not muddying it up.



Interesting idea. I knew about leaving a gap in the mid-range for dialog, but I never thought of working out the precise range of notes to avoid.


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## AC986 (Feb 1, 2015)

bwmusic @ Sun Feb 01 said:


> Is there a particular recipe in choosing a key to compose in when you have to fit the music to a scene or mood?



I usually just guess at it.


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## Daryl (Feb 1, 2015)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sun Feb 01 said:


> Cb is the worst!


Not for a Harp. :wink: 

D


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## The Darris (Feb 1, 2015)

willbedford @ Sun Feb 01 said:


> The Darris @ Sun Feb 01 said:
> 
> 
> > One of the things I do is figure out the natural range of the main characters' voices. I will be fitting the music around these during dialogue so I am not muddying it up.
> ...



Yeah, sometimes having that wide open gap isn't going to work for the piece so having a rough idea of what notes the characters normal speak at can help when you need to have that mid range motif or two.


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## Living Fossil (Feb 2, 2015)

bwmusic @ Sun Feb 01 said:


> Not sure if this question has been asked before here. Apologies if it has!
> 
> I always seem to have a bias starting in C or G for almost everything. To me it seems to fit, but maybe I'm not doing this right. Is there a particular recipe in choosing a key to compose in when you have to fit the music to a scene or mood?



That's something you normally do by instinct after a while.

Then, it's less about the key but rather about the relevant formants and the acoustic colours.
They should fit the image.

What is rather interesting than "the" key is how _different_ keys interact during a couple of scenes. Normally it's an indicator for a sensible composer that the different tonal regions used during a film form a complex "organism" which gives somehow a musical 3d-depth. On the other hand, often when you ask yourself why a score is getting monotonic allthough it's loud and driving, it's the lack of exchange of tonal regions (or the relation of the keys used is too simple; like I - V etc.). Of course, as always, there are exceptions.
The theme of Lovestory always uses the same key during the film and by this gets an insistent character.


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## autopilot (Feb 2, 2015)

D Minor is the saddest of keys, and you just work backwards in 5th from there.


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## markstyles (Feb 18, 2015)

I'm doing pop, not orchestral scores. But once I get a decent midi mockup. I listen in a few keys and tempo. It makes a world of difference.. Some musicians claim to hear more color in different keys.

As a young musician I never liked going past 3 sharps or flats, cause I hadn't TOTALLY memorized all my keys.. But the last several years, I often find myself going to D flat or A flat..
Yes some instruments certainly sound better in a particular key.. If you are doing a body of work such as in a score.. You definitely want pieces in different keys.. Just for the color and variety..

When the Beatles did the medley on the B side of Abbey Road.. They redid some of the songs in different keys so the medley would have more impact.. I would say the the use of different keys is very important when you have a number of songs grouped together. 

With traditional instruments of course you have to pay close attention to their ranges.. And some real instruments 'run out of gas when they get to their lowest range', while others really sing out. 

I once did a dance remix of a Reggae song which used four men doing harmony, basses and tenors. 
It was shocking the power of these four low powerful voices singing a kind of reggae doowop backup..


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## dinerdog (Feb 18, 2015)

This:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO8VZoRw214


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## germancomponist (Feb 18, 2015)

Feel the pictures and let it dictate the key!


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## Guy Bacos (Feb 18, 2015)

dinerdog @ Wed Feb 18 said:


> This:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO8VZoRw214



I knew about his transposing piano but never seen it. Thanks for sharing!


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## Jason_D (Feb 18, 2015)

This is a great topic for discussion. I remember John Powell (not HTTYD John Powell) saying that there really is no difference between the keys. I agree in theory. However, there is something to be said about the timbre for each note on an instrument. On a piano for instance, C3 does sound different than A3 because of the timbre of the note, not just a difference in the fundamental.


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## David Story (Feb 18, 2015)

Gunther gets it. The film will feel better when the score is in the right key. And it keeps changing. 

The tonality of dialog and sound design also matter a lot at the dub.

Mixers know this, they are gifted listeners.


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## madbulk (Feb 18, 2015)

autopilot @ Mon Feb 02 said:


> D Minor is the saddest of keys, and you just work backwards in 5th from there.


This.


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## bcarwell (Feb 19, 2015)

And how about pieces with a predominant role played by strings ?

What key(s) do string players prefer ?

I saw an orchestral video recently where the conductor, during rehearsal, made a joke to the string sections mumbling something about them liking (or disliking ?- the audio was garbled) flat keys.

It sounded like there was a clear universal preference of string players for either flat or sharp keys judging from their acknowledging laughter.

And if true, why would this be- can somebody explain ? Why would string players prefer flat or sharp keys (whichever it is) ?

In this thread it was mentioned how horns sound awful in certain keys. Where is a general source of which keys sound good/bad for specific instruments ? Is this generally mentioned in orchestration books ?


Bob


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## noldar12 (Feb 20, 2015)

Ok, as a strings (double-bass, and at one point a touch of cello) player here is a personal opinion:

Keys that correspond to an open string are helpful. In general, that means major keys with sharps: G, D, A, E, for the most part (C if you consider the lowest string on viola or cello). The same keys in minor work well, as the open strings remain the same: Gm, Dm, Am, Em. Not only can one play the open string to simplify fingering (unless vibrato is needed in a legato passage) one can also make easier use of natural harmonics if so desired.

Keys with lots of flats were particularly a pain.


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## AR (Feb 21, 2015)

As the guys said above: Some instruments don't sound quite good in some keys, like horns, clarinets, oboe, timpani, guitars. My wife a professional violinist complains always when I'm writing something with 5 flats in a low violin register. - To perform it's harder. To me it sounds good 
Be aware switching keys between certain cues. If between 2 cues is a 5min break you can change the tonality. The viewers won't recognize a change. But if a cue follows very soon I'd rather stick with the key or if it somehow won't work I try the related keys. 
There exists a so-called "Tonartenkreis" (don't mix it up with circle of keys).... https://homepage-creator.telekom.de/imageprocessor/processor.cls/CMTOI/cm4all/com/widgets/PhotoToi/12/73/58/15/1439ae1a797/scale_354_0/1439ae1a797 (https://homepage-creator.telekom.de/ima ... 439ae1a797)

A musician made an experiment. He tried to find out which keys sound brighter, which sound darker. As you can see. The key above is the brightest and most majestic compared to the lowest dark and most tragic. Well, some call it esoteric bull. But try it for yourself. 

There is also the problematic with the recording environment too. If you record in Air Studios some keys won't resonate that well (or boom) like other keys, compared to a dry scoring stage were it doesn't matter. So having that in mind too while composing is good


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## Living Fossil (Feb 21, 2015)

AR @ Sat Feb 21 said:


> A musician made an experiment. He tried to find out which keys sound brighter, which sound darker. As you can see. The key above is the brightest and most majestic compared to the lowest dark and most tragic. Well, some call it esoteric bull. But try it for yourself.



In non-equally tempered tunings it has a meaning to speak about the character of a specific key. Otherwise it's a subjective matter of inspiration/symbolism/placebo/whateveryouwant

Fortunately, there is a great cure against assumptions regarding basic characters of keys: blindtests!

Another thing one should keep in mind: Usually, when movies made for cinema are converted to DVDs, there is a shift in the tonality by the factor 24:25; which is almost a semitone.
A cue that was in d-Minor in the cinema will be in d#-minor at home.
Lovestory, which uses a-minor almost during the whole movie, is in a#-minor on DVD (or call it: Bb-minor).

So basically, if someone says that d-minor is the "saddest" key, that would mean that a cue in c#-minor (cinema) gets sadder at home (dvd); and a cue in d-minor (cinema) gets happier at home (dvd).
Come on guys; do blind tests...


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## bcarwell (Feb 21, 2015)

That's two folks now reporting flat keys for string players are more difficult and I still don't understand why. Can't be a sightreading issue as keys with lots of sharps are no fun either. I do understand benefit of open strings however.


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## SeattleComposer (Feb 21, 2015)

Most people I know have one or two keys that they feel comfortable writing in. Perhaps you practiced a lot in that key or learned one of your first pieces in it, or the scales somehow just fit your hands right. I don't think there is anything wrong with writing in that key, and then transposing around a bit to find the right sound. You might even strike on a nice modulation by doing that. 
That said, there are some traditional notions about what keys fit certain moods. For example, I heard someone call E the "heroic" key (See E-flat major is Richard Strauss's A Hero's Life). G minor is sad. (Mozart). And so on.


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## AR (Feb 21, 2015)

bcarwell @ Sat Feb 21 said:


> That's two folks now reporting flat keys for string players are more difficult and I still don't understand why. Can't be a sightreading issue as keys with lots of sharps are no fun either. I do understand benefit of open strings however.



Well, speaking as a professional musician playing several string instruments you feel better, NO, YOU ARE better left with sharps. Now, ask a trumpeteer to play in Emaj. He'll hate you.


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## iaink (Feb 21, 2015)

bcarwell @ Sat Feb 21 said:


> That's two folks now reporting flat keys for string players are more difficult and I still don't understand why. Can't be a sightreading issue as keys with lots of sharps are no fun either. I do understand benefit of open strings however.



A couple of reasons apply but the most important is sympathetic resonance.

In the sharp keys (particularly G through B), resonance built on the tonic, dominant, and sub-dominant scale degrees is quite strong.

In the flat keys, sympathetic resonance is present but it shifts to the mediants, sub-mediants, and leading tones.

The effect is that in the sharp keys, even if the player is avoiding open strings (which is usually the case for a pro), the resonance will still make it "easier" to play in tune; or conversely, the performance will be "pulled into tune" by the resonance... whichever way you want to think about it.

Other reasons include the fingering patterns and that in the flat keys, the violinists' arm is extended further from the body (just slightly).

For a pro violinist, however, they will not have a problem playing in Gb major. It will sound beautiful but it will always sing differently than D major.

I've done this little exercise because I was curious about the numbers. I've charted out where the open string, it's 3rd harmonic, and 5th harmonic fall in each key (for violin and 'cello):







http://s21.postimg.org/51jy7dfx3/table1.jpg

If you can follow the table above and assign a score for each key, here is a chart for resonance on the tonic, subdominant, and dominant:






Here is a chart for resonance on all tones of the scale:






Incidentally most fiddle music is written in D major.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Feb 22, 2015)

I think, this is really a two-part question. One which addresses just the music and the type. The second one would apply to scoring a film. 

In a film score there are a lot of considerations depending very much on the film, the edit and the colour broadly speaking. 

What key was the last cue in? How are you preparing the structure, 20 mins further into the film? Changing keys to make old material mix it up a little. 

One of the things that happens with doing the same base material of music into another key is that the instrumentation can change in its choice and tonality. Which is refreshing and you can even change the orchestration a bit - or radically!! 

Its like a puzzle sometimes for me. Specially on a score, its so much of design of how the music sits together with themes, orchestration and tonality over all. 

Then you have natural note resonances. Not sure what to call it. For example, F and F# are naturally more resonant in the bass regions. A always sounds a bit boxy to me. 

For example, open any synth, load a bass patch and compare how F/F# with other bass notes. I am sure, you will feel the difference. 

I have a few favourite keys because even in the world of hybrid scoring, there are other considerations. Perhaps, even more than pure orchestral music. But, that in its own right needs many other considerations. 

In a hybrid track, you have a lot of synth and percussion. So, you need to know what tuning your percussion will have. Remember, you always have to tune percussion too otherwise it keeps giving you weird mud kind of sound and it sounds unnatural. To me, anyway.

However, there are happy accidents! 

When working out material, I try it in different keys if I am not sure. You will be surprised how a piece of music can change and even the mix without the need for EQ!

Instrument range is another factor if you want it in a particular instrument. Otherwise, you use the ones that sound best in that range - or not if you are trying a different effect orchestration wise.

No rules I would say as such but there are some facts 

But, this is just my personal thought....



Tanuj.


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