# Ryzen 5000 Series.....(Drools)



## easyrider




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## Ben

These new Ryzen are looking very promising. Can't wait to get my hands on one 

Of course it will need some benchmarking, but my guess is that the performance of these CPUs will finally surpass the Intel CPUs in audio-workloads.


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## Manaberry

Great news! Waiting for the pro audio benchmark of course.


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## José Herring

I need to build a new DAW now though and it's going to be tough to wait until release. But, it does seem like it would be worth it.


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## Damarus

Yeah the audio benchmarks are whats important to us, but this looks promising!


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## Alex Sopala

Ben said:


> These new Ryzen are looking very promising. Can't wait to get my hands on one
> 
> Of course it will need some benchmarking, but my guess is that the performance of these CPUs will finally surpass the Intel CPUs in audio-workloads.



They did mention audio by name as one of the workflows that has similar needs to that of gaming (which is true). I'm excited, but also holding some excitement down until we get the reviewers' benchmarks early next month. Along with a DAWBench test. But I'm extremely optimistic nonetheless.

BTW, it seems to be they're staying on X570 this generation. That would make sense, because the next feature implementation would likely be DDR5, which isn't 100% ready yet, and would require a whole new chipset. The spec is out, but people gotta make RAM and motherboards for said RAM.


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## José Herring

Damarus said:


> Yeah the audio benchmarks are whats important to us, but this looks promising!


I listened a little bit to the talk. They've put the cores closer together somehow maybe like on 1 die now and the latency is reduced. They've also increased the single core performance which would put it on par with Intel which had a significant advantage. AMD is fully chasing after high end gaming markets which bodes really well for us.


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## Ben

José Herring said:


> I listened a little bit to the talk. They've put the cores closer together somehow maybe like on 1 die now and the latency is reduced. They've also increased the single core performance which would put it on par with Intel which had a significant advantage. AMD is fully chasing after high end gaming markets which bodes really well for us.


Previously AMD had 4 cores per die, now it's 8. Also the L3 Cache between the cores on a die are now shared. Both reduces latency which in return directly increases audio workload performance


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## Technostica

The chips with up to 8 cores are unified but those with more cores still use 2 chiplets for the cores. 
That will lead to some extra latency issues but due to the overall increases it might not be bad. 
So if you can live with 8 cores that might be the safer bet. 
At the moment the 12 core is only a hundred bucks more than the cheapest 8 core which might lead to a dilemma for some.


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## Technostica

Alex Sopala said:


> BTW, it seems to be they're staying on X570 this generation. That would make sense, because the next feature implementation would likely be DDR5, which isn't 100% ready yet, and would require a whole new chipset. The spec is out, but people gotta make RAM and motherboards for said RAM.


The RAM chips are already in production and ready to ship to module makers. 
In these early days the performance is relatively low compared to what is on the road map and prices are high. 
So usually servers are the first to adopt as they really need the extra features. 
Not sure that we'll see desktop chips using the new standard much before 2022. 
Maybe Intel might jump first as they need all the help that they can get.


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## Alex Sopala

Technostica said:


> The RAM chips are already in production and ready to ship to module makers.
> In these early days the performance is relatively low compared to what is on the road map and prices are high.
> So usually servers are the first to adopt as they really need the extra features.
> Not sure that we'll see desktop chips using the new standard much before 2022.
> Maybe Intel might jump first as they need all the help that they can get.



All I'm really looking forward to with DDR5 is 64gb DIMMs. Yes, LRDIMMs do 64GB, but compatibility is hot garbage.


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## Technostica

Alex Sopala said:


> All I'm really looking forward to with DDR5 is 64gb DIMMs. Yes, LRDIMMs do 64GB, but compatibility is hot garbage.


Higher densities is one of the reasons that Servers adopt new standards early.
Expect to see support for 256GB on mainstream boards which sounds outrageous.


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## Alex Sopala

Technostica said:


> Higher densities is one of the reasons that Servers adopt new standards early.
> Expect to see support for 256GB on mainstream boards which sounds outrageous.



It does, but my templates have gotten large enough that I kinda need it. I had another thread I did here where I pointed out that I breached 128GB with everything loaded. I'll just purge samples for now, but damn.

By extension, Threadripper (regular) will have support for 512GB DDR5, and if LRDIMMs keep up, Threadripper Pro and EPYC will be able to have 4TB in a single socket. And for 2 sockets? Wow.

Needless to say that's VERY well beyond what ANYONE doing VI writing will probably ever need for decades to come. I imagine even for someone like Hans Zimmer.


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## Ryan

Yes, it does look good.
My biggest concern is the lack of PCIe-lanes.. 20-lanes is not enough for my case. Just could have wished they upped the pcie-lanes to at least 30-42...

What do you think about the lanes? Is it really enough for us creators?


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## Technostica

Ryan said:


> What do you think about the lanes? Is it really enough for us creators?


Depends how a board allows you to split the lanes and what your needs are.
You can allocate less to the GPU and may have more for other devices.
You need to look at the chipset/CPU limitations and how each board works with that.
You can do a lot with a decent X570 chipset board.


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## Macrawn

Just curious but how much of a big deal is the latency on the current threadrip? The latency part would be important for say recording midi right? Beyond that daws use buffers anyway so playback or mixing latency doesn't matter I wouldn't think. The amount of computing power is probably sufficient for the next decade for audio, unless people start running really intensive intelligent cpu hogging inserts on every track which could happen in the next 5 years. Would someone notice 60 billionths of a second in latency?

My i5 can record 50 tracks without problems if I freeze them. The issue is during mixing when I want to run a lot of inserts. I also thought the audio interface was probably more of a big deal in terms of recording latency than 60 nano seconds of chip latency. Also anyone using VEP is going to have way more latency just because they are split between several machines and that doesn't seem to have bothered anyone.


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## Alex Sopala

Macrawn said:


> Just curious but how much of a big deal is the latency on the current threadrip? The latency part would be important for say recording midi right? Beyond that daws use buffers anyway so playback or mixing latency doesn't matter I wouldn't think. The amount of computing power is probably sufficient for the next decade for audio, unless people start running really intensive intelligent cpu hogging inserts on every track which could happen in the next 5 years. Would someone notice 60 billionths of a second in latency?
> 
> My i5 can record 50 tracks without problems if I freeze them. The issue is during mixing when I want to run a lot of inserts. I also thought the audio interface was probably more of a big deal in terms of recording latency than 60 nano seconds of chip latency. Also anyone using VEP is going to have way more latency just because they are split between several machines and that doesn't seem to have bothered anyone.



As far as my understanding, the 64GB buffer is really what matters with the latency thing. If you have a job mixing or mastering, it really doesn't matter. Tracking audio, there are a couple of specific use cases, but they really tie to tracking MIDI (such as using a drum pad as a kick drum and sending the midi information to a kick sample so the drummer can hear the sample as they hit it). One can really just use the output of their interface for real-time audio with a higher buffer size. Tracking MIDI is really the big thing with that, as far as I know. But the ability to be able to use lower buffer sizes if needed is really useful if you're kinda doing everything with the computer.


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## Macrawn

Alex Sopala said:


> As far as my understanding, the 64GB buffer is really what matters with the latency thing. If you have a job mixing or mastering, it really doesn't matter. Tracking audio, there are a couple of specific use cases, but they really tie to tracking MIDI (such as using a drum pad as a kick drum and sending the midi information to a kick sample so the drummer can hear the sample as they hit it). One can really just use the output of their interface for real-time audio with a higher buffer size. Tracking MIDI is really the big thing with that, as far as I know. But the ability to be able to use lower buffer sizes if needed is really useful if you're kinda doing everything with the computer.


Lower latency buffer is going to be better for sure. How do people even use VEP honestly because the latency of sending it to the cpu then to the slave for the sample and back must add considerable latency, well beyond what 60 billionths of a second in extra chip latency would do. 

Could I run a buffer of 64 on a threadripper zen 2 chip for recording midi?


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## Ben

Macrawn said:


> Just curious but how much of a big deal is the latency on the current threadrip? The latency part would be important for say recording midi right? Beyond that daws use buffers anyway so playback or mixing latency doesn't matter I wouldn't think. The amount of computing power is probably sufficient for the next decade for audio, unless people start running really intensive intelligent cpu hogging inserts on every track which could happen in the next 5 years. Would someone notice 60 billionths of a second in latency?
> 
> My i5 can record 50 tracks without problems if I freeze them. The issue is during mixing when I want to run a lot of inserts. I also thought the audio interface was probably more of a big deal in terms of recording latency than 60 nano seconds of chip latency. Also anyone using VEP is going to have way more latency just because they are split between several machines and that doesn't seem to have bothered anyone.


Lower CPU latency != lower audio latency.

Lower CPU latency helps to get lower audio buffer sizes without drop-outs.
And this in combination with the optimized caching will also reduce CPU scheduling time when a lot of memory is processed at the same time.
You can imaginge the processing like a queue, the CPU serves every request, but it needs to wait for data now and then. To avoid idling time, the CPU looks if the data of the next item in queue is already loaded in memeory.
Worst case scenario: The CPU uses more processing time with the checks for if the data has finally arrived in memory, instead of processing the data.
That's also the reason why you will get performance improvments with NVMe SSDs and multi-mic libraries: The CPU can process the data faster, with less waiting and less checks for "Is the data finally in chache?"


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## Alex Sopala

Ben said:


> That's also the reason why you will get performance improvments with NVMe SSDs and multi-mic libraries: The CPU can process the data faster, with less waiting and less checks for "Is the data finally in chache?"



I don't mean to potentially derail the conversation, but I'm curious with NVME how much one drive can handle. I'm curious if using an NVME drive for something crazy heavy like Berlin Orchestra would benefit performance, or if it wouldn't change much compared to SATA. I've heard mixed things on this front. Or how to check to see if the drive is the bottleneck and I need to start using another to parse out the strain.


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## tabulius

Looking forward to Zen 3 for sure! I have waited for an upgrade for a long time. Although my i7 6700k still performs pretty well, some bigger projects are causing some problems. I just noticed that the flagship 16-core 5950X has a base frequency of 3,4 Ghz and the 12-core 5900X has 3,7 Ghz. I wonder if the 12-core is actually a sweet spot for realtime audio work.


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## chimuelo

I’ll use a Cezanne as a slave and a Tiger Lake as the Master.

First rule of spending.
Why buy one, when you can have two at twice the price.


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## Ben

Alex Sopala said:


> I don't mean to potentially derail the conversation, but I'm curious with NVME how much one drive can handle. I'm curious if using an NVME drive for something crazy heavy like Berlin Orchestra would benefit performance, or if it wouldn't change much compared to SATA. I've heard mixed things on this front. Or how to check to see if the drive is the bottleneck and I need to start using another to parse out the strain.


Can't talk for other libraries, have not tested it, but for the Synchron and especially Synchron Piano Libraries you will get more performance by using NVMe drives.


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## Alex Sopala

Ben said:


> Can't talk for other libraries, have not tested it, but for the Synchron and especially Synchron Piano Libraries you will get more performance by using NVMe drives.



Well I have those as well, so good to know.


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## chimuelo

A fellow performer has told me his rig improved considerably going from EVO SSD’s to 905P’s.

I noticed NVMe helped in Omnisphere with faster loading times. But no noticeable differences in other real world usage.

I’m going to try a 480GB 905P because the latency/transaction and random specs look really good.

Not sure if these will work on an AMD W10 rig, I’m trying to verify.


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## Alex Sopala

chimuelo said:


> A fellow performer has told me his rig improved considerably going from EVO SSD’s to 905P’s.
> 
> I noticed NVMe helped in Omnisphere with faster loading times. But no noticeable differences in other real world usage.
> 
> I’m going to try a 480GB 905P because the latency/transaction and random specs look really good.
> 
> Not sure if these will work on an AMD W10 rig, I’m trying to verify.



Yeah, I've heard conflicting information about how things are improved, mostly I hear loading times, which makes sense. IDK if it helps with dropouts at lower buffer sizes or not, TBH, or if that's all CPU and just using any SSD.


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## Ben

Alex Sopala said:


> IDK if it helps with dropouts at lower buffer sizes or not


At least for Synchron Libraries it improves both (tested on my currently used Intel i5 8600k).


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## John Longley

Ben said:


> These new Ryzen are looking very promising. Can't wait to get my hands on one
> 
> Of course it will need some benchmarking, but my guess is that the performance of these CPUs will finally surp



I think the last gen is functionally better than the Intel offerings. My 3900x and 3950x had no real world latency issues, and I can run a hefty session at 64 Buffer (RME). It is safe to come out and play. I used only intel for about 15 years, but it's a very hard sell at this point. With the new gen, it's a joke. Just do it.


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## tack

Ryan said:


> My biggest concern is the lack of PCIe-lanes.. 20-lanes is not enough for my case. Just could have wished they upped the pcie-lanes to at least 30-42.


I'm reading conflicting information on this. Most sources say 20 lanes, but this is an unusual number, and 4 less than previous generations. This site says 40 lanes, Wccftech says it's still TBA, while Anandtech says it's 24 lanes.

I'd like to see 40 lanes (especially coming from a Threadripper 2950X, it would be tough to give up _that_ much I/O performance), but I actually suspect the correct number is 24 and the 20 number accounted for the 4 lanes allocated to the PCH, and that number just kept getting repeated as media tends to plagiarize one another.

I do think 24 lanes is good enough for most music creators, and we would see a bigger benefit from the CPU performance (and especially the reduced latency of this generation). But as always this is going to be case-by-case. I myself have 3 NVMe drives but I don't saturate them all at the same time. I could survive on 24 lanes -- especially PCIe 4.0 lanes. Too bad all my current devices are gen 3.

Let the upgrade cascade begin!


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## Alex Sopala

tack said:


> I'm reading conflicting information on this. Most sources say 20 lanes, but this is an unusual number, and 4 less than previous generations. This site says 40 lanes, Wccftech says it's still TBA, while Anandtech says it's 24 lanes.
> 
> I'd like to see 40 lanes (especially coming from a Threadripper 2950X, it would be tough to give up _that_ much I/O performance), but I actually suspect the correct number is 24 and the 20 number accounted for the 4 lanes allocated to the PCH, and that number just kept getting repeated as media tends to plagiarize one another.
> 
> I do think 24 lanes is good enough for most music creators, and we would see a bigger benefit from the CPU performance (and especially the reduced latency of this generation). But as always this is going to be case-by-case. I myself have 3 NVMe drives but I don't saturate them all at the same time. I could survive on 24 lanes -- especially PCIe 4.0 lanes. Too bad all my current devices are gen 3.
> 
> Let the upgrade cascade begin!



I don't see any reason it wouldn't be the same as Zen 2 on that front, especially considering that they're sticking with X570.


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## Hendrixon

Anyone here with AMD has a board that lets him/her control and allocate the number of lanes per bus?


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## Technostica

Hendrixon said:


> Anyone here with AMD has a board that lets him/her control and allocate the number of lanes per bus?


You can split the lanes on the main slots usually to 8x/8x I think. 
That gives you a lot of bandwidth for NVMe storage using an adapter on that slot. 
Plus you have the dedicated 4 lanes for an M.2 drive plus another hanging off the chipset. 
If you look at the Web page for a particular model it will go into the details.


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## Pictus




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## chimuelo

To split up PCI-e lanes in a custom fashion your BIOS option will have to allow PCI Bifurcation.
ASRockRack, Tyan, Supermicro allow this.

I wanted an mITX to run a GFX card and PCI-e 1x off of a 16X slot.
3700X has no on die GFX.
Just needed a special riser card/ribbon for GFX and Audio.






PCI-e bifurcation explained – Don's Blog







blog.donbowman.ca


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## chimuelo

Bought this board in August for 4 bones.
First time ever pre ordering PC kit, but after 5 ASRock Rack boards I had to have one.

Server board actually, using faster consumer CPUs.
No gamer gunk, no crap audio, short trace lines, perpendicular DIMMs, and notice the Overclocking options.

Perfect for 1U builds.
Waiting for the Cezanne APU from AMD. It’s a Ryzen 5000 w/ Vegas GFX.




F


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## Hendrixon

tack said:


> I'm reading conflicting information on this. Most sources say 20 lanes, but this is an unusual number, and 4 less than previous generations. This site says 40 lanes, Wccftech says it's still TBA, while Anandtech says it's 24 lanes.
> 
> I'd like to see 40 lanes (especially coming from a Threadripper 2950X, it would be tough to give up _that_ much I/O performance), but I actually suspect the correct number is 24 and the 20 number accounted for the 4 lanes allocated to the PCH, and that number just kept getting repeated as media tends to plagiarize one another.
> 
> I do think 24 lanes is good enough for most music creators, and we would see a bigger benefit from the CPU performance (and especially the reduced latency of this generation). But as always this is going to be case-by-case. I myself have 3 NVMe drives but I don't saturate them all at the same time. I could survive on 24 lanes -- especially PCIe 4.0 lanes. Too bad all my current devices are gen 3.
> 
> Let the upgrade cascade begin!



It seems AMD haven't officially said/published anything concrete regarding number of on core lanes support. all they did say is that the i/o die that carries the chiplets is the same as previous gen.
Based on that, you have 24 cpu lanes, 4 are used to interface the chipset, 16 are automatically assigned to the graphics card, which leaves you with 4 lanes (either 1x4 pcie nvme or 2x2 sata nvme).

I REALLY hope they will up the number of lanes but I doubt it.........


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## Hendrixon

chimuelo said:


> To split up PCI-e lanes in a custom fashion your BIOS option will have to allow PCI Bifurcation.
> ASRockRack, Tyan, Supermicro allow this.
> 
> I wanted an mITX to run a GFX card and PCI-e 1x off of a 16X slot.
> 3700X has no on die GFX.
> Just needed a special riser card/ribbon for GFX and Audio.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PCI-e bifurcation explained – Don's Blog
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> blog.donbowman.ca



I don't understand, you want to run a two cards on a single slot? how?


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## Technostica

chimuelo said:


> To split up PCI-e lanes in a custom fashion your BIOS option will have to allow PCI Bifurcation.
> ASRockRack, Tyan, Supermicro allow this.





Hendrixon said:


> I don't understand, you want to run a two cards on a single slot? how?



There are two types of PCIe Bifurcation it seems:
1. At the board level.
2. At the slot level.

The first is very common and often refers to the 16x lanes from the CPU being able to configured as 16/0 or 8/8 for the two 16x slots. This for desktop boards is aimed generally at dual graphics although that is much less commonly used these days for gaming. But the 2nd slot can be used for drive controllers etc.

The second relates to being able to split a single slot into multiple discrete channels.
So that could mean a 16x slot becomes 4 discrete 4x channels. 
This is rarely seen on desktop boards but is more common on HEDT, Workstation and Server boards.
This used to be a feature of certain higher end disk controllers and the PCIe cards would be designed around it and require it.
Not sure what advantages it gives but it could be down to extra consistency that the discrete channels give!
But you see PCIe 16x controller cards which support Four M.2 PCIe 4x SSDs which don't require bifurcation at the slot level. So maybe it's generally redundant for desktop boards hence the almost complete lack of support.


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## Hendrixon

I wasn't up to date on hardware specs and naming, so did some reading at Asus on their X570 boards and here are my findings going thru the manuals of Prime X570 Pro and Pro WS X570 Ace:

Lets first remember that as of what we know now, we really have 20 lanes to work with direct to the cpu.
4 lanes are going to the first M.2 which leaves us with 16 lanes.
If we limit the VGA to 8 lanes (the how is currently not important), we are left with 8 lanes.
This alone means we can only - theoretically - add two more pcie nvme drives direct to the cpu.

From the manuals of the above boards, they support single slot @x16 or two slots @x8 each (written as x8/x8). this seems like its done automatically, if you install two pcie cards, the lanes split between the slots. the problem is that there is no way to configure the second slot as x4/x4... so an adapter with multiple nvme drives MUST have a bridge on it, otherwise the motherboard will see just a one of the drives.

Bottom line on these consumer motherboards from Asus, its possible to limit the VGA to 8 lanes, thus having 8 free lanes to add storage direct to the cpu, but it can be done only with an adapter that has a bridge on it.


Edit:
After 2 hours of more readings, my head reached saturation
It seems Asus have this card (HYPER M.2 X16 GEN 4 CARD) that should work with x570 boards... with their boards... but there is nowhere indication HOW to do this as no board exposes bifurcation ability in the bios.

Also, it seems some Gigabyte boards do offer bifurcation of x8 + x4/x4.


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## MGdepp

Is there a chance, AMD will let a Threadripper with similar single core performance follow? I think this is promising, but what I am really after is a VEPro machine with virtually unlimited voices and lots of RAM. It still seems, the 10980XE (or its relatives with less cores) seem to outperform any gaming chips in tests (Scan Pro Audio). I am not sure, but I think it has to do with 2 channels of memory on those systems. That is why I would still wait for something like a thread ripper, if you are after something like a killer-VEPro machine. Am I right?


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## novaburst

is this Intels answer to AMD 

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/docs/processors/core/11th-gen-processors.html


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## MGdepp

novaburst said:


> is this Intels answer to AMD
> 
> https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/docs/processors/core/11th-gen-processors.html


No, those are mobile processors. This was actually AMDs answers to Intel‘s 10990k, which was their only chip that is still ahead of AMD - in gaming.


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## Technostica

novaburst said:


> is this Intels answer to AMD
> 
> https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/docs/processors/core/11th-gen-processors.html


Mobile chips.


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## Technostica

Hendrixon said:


> It seems Asus have this card (HYPER M.2 X16 GEN 4 CARD) that should work with x570 boards... with their boards... but there is nowhere indication HOW to do this as no board exposes bifurcation ability in the bios.


The only way I can see that you can use all 16 lanes with that card in an X570 board is if you use an APU.
That would mean you don’t require a discrete GPU so the slot is free to offer 16x to the card.
I wonder if you could use it in 8x PCIe 4.0 mode with 4 M.2 PCIe 3.0 SSDs?
That’s still about 14GBs spread across 4 drives.
It depends on how flexible the card is.



Hendrixon said:


> Also, it seems some Gigabyte boards do offer bifurcation of x8 + x4/x4.


Are those coming from the CPU or the chipset?


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## ridgero

novaburst said:


> is this Intels answer to AMD
> 
> https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/docs/processors/core/11th-gen-processors.html



Thats not an answer to AMDs desktop CPUs.

Wait for January, AMD will announce their new mobile CPU lineup. Intel will not have any chance, not any.


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## Macrawn

MGdepp said:


> Is there a chance, AMD will let a Threadripper with similar single core performance follow? I think this is promising, but what I am really after is a VEPro machine with virtually unlimited voices and lots of RAM. It still seems, the 10980XE (or its relatives with less cores) seem to outperform any gaming chips in tests (Scan Pro Audio). I am not sure, but I think it has to do with 2 channels of memory on those systems. That is why I would still wait for something like a thread ripper, if you are after something like a killer-VEPro machine. Am I right?


I kinda think so. I think looking forward the next 5 years lots of cores is where it's at. Still 16 cores at those clock speeds is pretty nice.


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## Hendrixon

> The only way I can see that you can use all 16 lanes with that card in an X570 board is if you use an APU.


True... or if you put the VGA on a slot that comes from the chipset 



> I wonder if you could use it in 8x PCIe 4.0 mode with 4 M.2 PCIe 3.0 SSDs?


There is no bridge here so the drives interface to motherboard directly, this leads to two outcomes:
1. The pcie speed will fall back to 3.0 protocol.
2. You'll see only two drives out of the four (or if you put two drives, you'll see both of them).



> It depends on how flexible the card is.


All these cheap cards have no logic, all they do is split the pcie lanes coming from the slot to groups of 4 and hard connect them to each drive.



> Are those coming from the CPU or the chipset?


The Gigabyte? from the cpu.


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## novaburst

ridgero said:


> Thats not an answer to AMDs desktop CPUs.
> 
> Wait for January, AMD will announce their new mobile CPU lineup. Intel will not have any chance, not any.



Well i think even now AMD has killer CPUs and i really cant see what the latency fuss is all about


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## Technostica

From Anandtech

*CineBench R20 Single Thread Score – All by Anandtech except for 5900X*

Intel Core i7-1185G7 Tiger Lake Intel 10nm SuperFin 4.8 GHz 595pts
Intel Core i9-10900K Comet Lake Intel 14+++ 5.3 GHz 538pts
AMD Ryzen 9 3950X Zen2 TSMC 7nm 4.7 GHz 536pts
AMD Ryzen 9 3900XT Zen2 TSMC 7nm 4.7 GHz 523pts
AMD Ryzen 9 5900X Zen3 TSMC 7nm 4.8 GHz 631pts (AMD provided)

So AMD’s Zen 3 *desktop *is beating Intel’s latest *laptop *chip by 6%.
At 5.1GHz for Intel which is nearer their desktop speeds it would be a tie.
Intel are releasing a desktop chip in Q1/21 which uses a newer architecture so it may match AMD.
But, this is only Single Core and in multi-core AMD will still have a massive lead and at a much lower wattage.
I mention this for those that are wedded to Intel, not that I am recommending waiting.


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## Technostica

Hendrixon said:


> The Gigabyte? from the cpu.


But seemingly only if you use an APU or does that vary by board?
I find it hard to parse as there are so many permutations.

*2nd Generation AMD Ryzen™ with Radeon™ Vega Graphics processors/AMD 
Ryzen™ with Radeon™ Vega Graphics processors:*

- 1 x PCI Express x16 slot, supporting PCIe 3.0 and running at x8
Integrated in the Chipset (PCIEX4/PCIEX1):
- 2 x PCI Express x16 slots, supporting PCIe 4.0 (Note 2)/3.0 and running at x4 (PCIEX4)
- 2 x PCI Express x1 slots, supporting PCIe 4.0 (Note 2)/3.0

(Note 2) For 3rd Generation AMD Ryzen™ processors only.


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## Mystic

The audio latency on the 3900 series is pretty damn good now. I wonder if this makes new improvements to that as well.

The one thing really bringing them down is staying under that 4ghz range with very little wiggle room for overclocking. I doubt that will be addressed in Zen3 either but both Intel and AMD seem to be having a lot of issues with breaking that mark out of the box with stable speeds.


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## Hendrixon

from the manual of x570-aorus-ultra:

PCIEX16 Bifurcation
Allows you to determine how the bandwidth of the PCIEX16 slot is divided. Options: Auto, PCIE 2x8, PCIE 1x8/2x4, PCIE 4x4. (Default: Auto)

* I just picked that board by accident.


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## Technostica

Hendrixon said:


> from the manual of x570-aorus-ultra:
> 
> PCIEX16 Bifurcation
> Allows you to determine how the bandwidth of the PCIEX16 slot is divided. Options: Auto, PCIE 2x8, PCIE 1x8/2x4, PCIE 4x4. (Default: Auto)


So you would need to run a GPU via the chipset lanes which would compromise it for storage etc but maybe not that much!
Then you can find a storage card that requires *Bifurcation *and use that in the main slot.
Are there many storage cards that use that for SSDs?


----------



## novaburst

Mystic said:


> The audio latency on the 3900 series is pretty damn good now. I wonder if this makes new improvements to that as well.
> 
> The one thing really bringing them down is staying under that 4ghz range with very little wiggle room for overclocking. I doubt that will be addressed in Zen3 either but both Intel and AMD seem to be having a lot of issues with breaking that mark out of the box with stable speeds.



Overclocking depends a lot on your MB on what it allows you to do, so at most the CPU esp AMD are offering a lot more overclocking than some MB will allow


----------



## novaburst

AMD Ryzen 5000 (Zen3) series' European pricing spotted - VideoCardz.com


Retailers have already begun listing AMD Ryzen 5000 series processors, although they are still almost a month away. AMD Ryzen 5000 series European pricing Guys over at Overclock3D collected pricing information of AMD Ryzen 5000 series from UK retailers (mainly Overclockers UK). These processors...




videocardz.com





Here are some pricings to expect


----------



## Hendrixon

Technostica said:


> So you would need to run a GPU via the chipset lanes which would compromise it for storage etc but maybe not that much!
> Then you can find a storage card that requires *Bifurcation *and use that in the main slot.
> Are there many storage cards that use that for SSDs?



No need for VGA thru the chipset here.
Most of the x570 motherboards I looked at, have two pcie slots connected to the cpu.
It seems all boards behave this way:
Using single VGA card in the first slot, directs all 16 lanes to that slot.
If you add a second VGA or pcia card to the second slot, the lanes are by default split to x8 each. that's true for Asus and Giga (and probably most boards from other manufacturers).

Now, the Asus manuals don't discuss any bios option for user configured Bifurcation, so based on that alone, you can have a VGA in slot 1 @x8, and an adapter with two nvme drives that has an active bridge in slot 2 @x8.
The thing that is weird, Asus's card that can hold 4 nvme drives has some info that suggests that their x570 boards are able to use it (and it has no bridge, its a dumb card)... I have no idea how. maybe its auto detects a call for x4+x4 split?

On the other hand, the manual from giga explicitly shows in the Bifurcation paragraph, an option for "PCIE 1x8/2x4"... which is exactly what we want. VGA in slot 1 @x8, and nvme carrier dumb card with two drives in slot 2 @2x4.


----------



## pixel

hbjdk said:


> One of the major webshops in Denmark has listed the cpus now:
> 
> 5600X : 2349 DKK (EUR 315)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AMD Ryzen 5 5600X Wraith Stealth CPU - 6 kerner 3.7 GHz - AMD AM4 - AMD Boxed (PIB - med køler)
> 
> 
> 1.499,00 kr. Processor (CPU), 3.7 GHz (4.6 GHz Turbo), Unlocked (kan overclockes), 6 kerner (Hexa Core), 12 tråde, 32 MB cache, understøtter Dual Channel DDR4-3200 RAM, 24 PCI Express Gen 4.0 Lanes, AM4 Socket, 65 watt TDP, Box (inkl Wraith Spire køler) - Zen 3.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.proshop.dk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5800X : 3499 DKK (EUR 470)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AMD Ryzen 7 5800X CPU - 8 kerner 3.8 GHz - AMD AM4 - AMD Boxed (WOF - uden køler)
> 
> 
> 2.149,00 kr. Processor (CPU), 3.8 GHz (4.7 GHz Turbo), Unlocked (kan overclockes), 8 kerner (Octa Core), 16 tråde, 36 MB cache, understøtter Dual Channel DDR4-3200 RAM, 24 PCI Express Gen 4.0 Lanes, AM4 Socket, 105 watt TDP, Box <strong>(dog uden køler)</strong> - Zen 3.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.proshop.dk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5900X : 4299 DKK (EUR 577)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AMD Ryzen 9 5900X CPU - 12 kerner 3.7 GHz - AMD AM4 - AMD Boxed (WOF - uden køler)
> 
> 
> 3.190,00 kr. Processor (CPU), 3.7 GHz (4.8 GHz Turbo), Unlocked (kan overclockes), 12 kerner (Dodeca Core), 24 tråde, 70 MB cache, understøtter Dual Channel DDR4-3200 RAM, 24 PCI Express Gen 4.0 Lanes, AM4 Socket, 105 watt TDP, Box <strong>(dog uden køler)</strong> - Zen 3.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.proshop.dk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That’s with 25% Danish VAT included.



Can't wait to see these prices but + €300 🤪 here in France (where I just moved). Damn, France is super expensive for electronics. I'm already missing prices in UK. 
Time to check if this Danish shop send to EU 🙂


----------



## pixel

hbjdk said:


> I checked their business terms just now, but nothing is mentioned about foreign sales. Denmark, Greenland and Faroe Islands are all that’s mentioned.



As expected. Not many shops send outside the country or near region. I checked few countries already :D


----------



## easyrider

3900x to 5950x for me...


----------



## Ben

easyrider said:


> 3900x to 5950x for me...


I'll probably go for a 5900x for the higher base-clock and probably better dynamic clocking, but I really hope some independent benchmarks will be released first.


----------



## Karma

I'm probably going to go from 3950x to 5950x. That'll hopefully keep me ticking over nicely for the foreseeable future


----------



## Hendrixon

In the 3000 series, if you factored cost per performance for VI voices, then even with the performance hole at 128 and 256 sample buffers, the 3900X was by far the best deal.

But pure performance? while the 3700X/3800X and the 3950X recovered back from that hole when 512 sample buffer was used (they actually started recovering at 256 samples), the 3900X lagged behind and actually never closed the gap.

I can only assume that compared to the 3700X/3800X being an 8 cores full active CCD, and the 3950X being two full active CCDs, the 3900X had a fractured formation with 4 cores disabled with (probably) 3 cores active in each CCX.

Btw, because of the 4 core CCX design, AMD couldn't make a 10 core or 14 core 3000 cpus.
Also since there is no more room on the current die, AMD are not able to make a Ryzen cpu with more than 16 core, either 3000 or 5000. but now with basically two unified CCDs (no more CCX), it means that they CAN make a 10 and 14 core cpus. time will tell.

p.s. The way Intel can have an answer to AMD, still on 14nm, is by building 18+ core cpus and price them competitively.


----------



## pixel

I'm curious when DAWBench will be available for 5000 series. 

Also if I remember correctly one of VI member is responsible for this benchmark. I really would like to request a change in colors used for CPUs in the tables (those tiny squares next to cpu model). I can't see difference between eg. red cpu x and red CPU y. Same for dark shades of blue. Am I the only one? I'm not color blind but these differences are too tiny for my eyes. Use of simple 16 basic colors would be easier for eye.


----------



## Alex Sopala

pixel said:


> I'm curious when DAWBench will be available for 5000 series.



I imagine not long after they're available to buy, unless the guys doing it get reviewer's samples early. The testbench doesn't have to change on the AMD side.


----------



## Rasoul Morteza

To those who are waiting for CPU benchmarks... how are you exactly going to translate that into a metric of real-time performance? Unless you build the exact same tested system, those numbers will be quite meaningless for day to day work.

Cheers


----------



## Manaberry

Rasoul Morteza said:


> To those who are waiting for CPU benchmarks... how are you exactly going to translate that into a metric of real-time performance? Unless you build the exact same tested system, those numbers will be quite meaningless for day to day work.
> 
> Cheers



A number of instances that produce the same number of voices each, on 3 different buffer sizes (32/64/256), samples fully loaded to avoid SSD transfer to RAM.


----------



## Alex Sopala

Rasoul Morteza said:


> To those who are waiting for CPU benchmarks... how are you exactly going to translate that into a metric of real-time performance? Unless you build the exact same tested system, those numbers will be quite meaningless for day to day work.
> 
> Cheers



It's more to compare it to how it stacks up with other CPUs. The numbers won't be the same obviously, but it's not meant to be a "this is how it will perform, guaranteed" kind of thing, but more of a "this is how it performs compared to other CPUs" kind of thing, so we can make more informed decisions before dropping money on a CPU. Obviously on our own systems it's also smart to check DPC latency ourselves, but it's more for comparison's sake.


----------



## Technostica

pixel said:


> Also if I remember correctly one of VI member is responsible for this benchmark. I really would like to request a change in colors used for CPUs in the tables (those tiny squares next to cpu model). I can't see difference between eg. red cpu x and red CPU y. Same for dark shades of blue. Am I the only one? I'm not color blind but these differences are too tiny for my eyes. Use of simple 16 basic colors would be easier for eye.


If you mean Pete at Scan I did ask him to change the colours.
I also asked him to change the image resolution at one stage as they were so large that it made viewing harder than necessary.
He did change the resolution so he's open to feedback.
Seemingly, he's not that focussed on presentation which is a shame as it makes a difference.
He's gone to all that effort so with a few small tweaks I think that it helps viewability a lot.


----------



## Rasoul Morteza

Alex Sopala said:


> It's more to compare it to how it stacks up with other CPUs. The numbers won't be the same obviously, but it's not meant to be a "this is how it will perform, guaranteed" kind of thing, but more of a "this is how it performs compared to other CPUs" kind of thing, so we can make more informed decisions before dropping money on a CPU. Obviously on our own systems it's also smart to check DPC latency ourselves, but it's more for comparison's sake.


That's basic benchmarking, but too often folks pour money into more expensive CPU's without realizing that their entire setup sucks in terms of RTL, let alone the garbage they have on their OS that bottlenecks their systems after a few instances of iZotope... though sure you will get better performance with a better CPU.


----------



## pixel

Technostica said:


> If you mean Pete at Scan I did ask him to change the colours.
> I also asked him to change the image resolution at one stage as they were so large that it made viewing harder than necessary.
> He did change the resolution so he's open to feedback.
> Seemingly, he's not that focussed on presentation which is a shame as it makes a difference.
> He's gone to all that effort so with a few small tweaks I think that it helps viewability a lot.



Nice to see that I'm not the only one 🙂 I even asked my girlfriend and she also couldn't distinguish all colors (women usually can distinguish way more colors than men).


----------



## Technostica

On release the 12 and 16 core are well priced but they've dropped the lower priced 6 and 8 core chips so you can only buy at top tier pricing for 6 and 8 core.
So they are poor value at launch for those on a budget. 
They may release cheaper 6 and 8 core chips down the line but it's not guaranteed.
This muddies the waters as street price day 1 and the 12 Core Zen 2 is less than 8 core Zen 3.
For some workloads the 3900X will be a much better choice.
For DAW usage it will be an interesting shootout at the £400 mark.

AMD seem to be aiming to upsell people to the 12C 5900X as it's not that much more than the 8C 5800X. Should be a cracker.


----------



## muk

So, are there any real world experiences available yet? I will have to build a new pc sooner or later. Currently I am looking at either a 5900X or 10850K. Which one is preferable for a DAW build?


----------



## Hendrixon

muk said:


> So, are there any real world experiences available yet? I will have to build a new pc sooner or later. Currently I am looking at either a 5900X or 10850K. Which one is preferable for a DAW build?



My only experience so far is that new developed parts take long time to get.
I did manage (thru personal contact) to secure my self a 5950X when the first batch reached my country, though since then it seems, at least locally, this one's availability is scarce or nowhere to be found.

Since then I'm waiting for the Asus X570 Dark Hero mobo to reach my shores


----------



## Alex Sopala

muk said:


> So, are there any real world experiences available yet? I will have to build a new pc sooner or later. Currently I am looking at either a 5900X or 10850K. Which one is preferable for a DAW build?



Stock is pretty much nonexistent on the new parts because they've been dealing with unprecedented demand...this entire year. Basically due to the pandemic, a lot of these companies have been dealing with Black Friday levels of demand every week for the past 35+ weeks. So nobody has any unless they acted quick when they first dropped.


----------



## muk

Ah, that explains the scarcity of actual user experience. I checked and noticed that it isn't available here either until at least end of January. In that case I'll wait a little longer until user reports and a dawbench test come in.


----------



## easyrider

Managed to get a 5950x


----------



## Ben

muk said:


> So, are there any real world experiences available yet? I will have to build a new pc sooner or later. Currently I am looking at either a 5900X or 10850K. Which one is preferable for a DAW build?


I got a 5950x this week. I'll build my pc within the next days and will do some tests


----------



## muk

Ben said:


> I got a 5950x this week. I'll build my pc within the next days and will do some tests



Wow, this should be a beast of a processor.


----------



## lokotus

Ben said:


> I got a 5950x this week. I'll build my pc within the next days and will do some tests


Thats cool but as I read, they can not get to 256GB RAM support, which might benefit with orchestral libraries for future expansion. Why didn't you go for an 3960X with full ram support ? Cheers, lokotus


----------



## Ben

lokotus said:


> Thats cool but as I read, they can not get to 256GB RAM support, which might benefit with orchestral libraries for future expansion. Why didn't you go for an 3960X with full ram support ? Cheers, lokotus


Until recently I was fine with just 32GB RAM. Now I've got 64 GB RAM with the option to double in RAM if needed. I put most multi-mic libraries on an NVMe drive, so I can lower the preload-size and with it the RAM usage.
The Zen3 generation has a much higher IPC compared to Zen2.


----------



## lokotus

cool, please keep us updated about how the benchmark and your choice of hardware worked out. Thanks, Cheers, lokotus


----------



## Hendrixon

Ben said:


> I got a 5950x this week. I'll build my pc within the next days and will do some tests



Decided on the rest of the parts?


----------



## Ben

Hendrixon said:


> Decided on the rest of the parts?


Yes:

CPU - Ryzen 5950x
Board - MSI MAG X570 Tomahawk
RAM - 64GB G.Skill RipJaws V DDR4-3600 CL16
Cooler - be quiet! Dark Rock Pro 4
Case - be quiet! SILENT BASE 802 Black
Power Supply - be quiet! Straight Power 11 Platinum 1000W
Thermal Paste - Noctua NT-H1

I selected the RAM because of availability, speed and low latency; Cooler and power supply because of performance and experience experience in the past; board because of quality, good experience with my current MSI board, as well as features.

Still, I don't know how the system will work - looks like I have to wait a few days until the CPU cooler arrives...


----------



## lokotus

Ben said:


> Yes:
> 
> CPU - Ryzen 5950x
> Board - MSI MAG X570 Tomahawk
> RAM - 64GB G.Skill RipJaws V DDR4-3600 CL16
> Cooler - be quiet! Dark Rock Pro 4
> Case - be quiet! SILENT BASE 802 Black
> Power Supply - be quiet! Straight Power 11 Platinum 1000W
> Thermal Paste - Noctua NT-H1
> 
> I selected the RAM because of availability, speed and low latency; Cooler and power supply because of performance and experience experience in the past; board because of quality, good experience with my current MSI board, as well as features.
> 
> Still, I don't know how the system will work - looks like I have to wait a few days until the CPU cooler arrives...


Great thanks for the update. Have you heard about any amd, bios tweaks like disabling turbo, c-states on the intel platform for cubase improvement ? And seems tempting but I wonder about the compatibility of cubase / 3rd party vst...Did you get good DPC latency with your former MSI Experience ?


----------



## Robert_G

Ben said:


> Yes:
> 
> CPU - Ryzen 5950x
> Board - MSI MAG X570 Tomahawk
> RAM - 64GB G.Skill RipJaws V DDR4-3600 CL16
> Cooler - be quiet! Dark Rock Pro 4
> Case - be quiet! SILENT BASE 802 Black
> Power Supply - be quiet! Straight Power 11 Platinum 1000W
> Thermal Paste - Noctua NT-H1
> 
> I selected the RAM because of availability, speed and low latency; Cooler and power supply because of performance and experience experience in the past; board because of quality, good experience with my current MSI board, as well as features.
> 
> Still, I don't know how the system will work - looks like I have to wait a few days until the CPU cooler arrives...



Why do you need a 1000w power supply?


----------



## Ben

Robert_G said:


> Why do you need a 1000w power supply?


The quality 750/850 Watt power supplies were/are out of stock or more expensive then the 1000 Watt ones. Also I plan replace the current graphics card with one of the new ones, as soon as they are available again and don't cost as much as both my kidneys. Therefore I should not get a power supply with less then ~800 Watt.


----------



## Ben

It's really hard to recommend upgrading the system right now. Most shops sell these items way over value because of high demand. I got lucky and found a shop that just got restocked + they sold these parts for decent prices.


----------



## muk

Hope availability will be better in a few months, and prices come down a bit. If so I'll look into builing a new pc then.


----------



## Hendrixon

I got my cpu on November 8th.
Today is the 22nd of December and I'm still waiting for a motherboard that was announced on October 12 (Asus X570 Dark Hero) and supposed to be in stores like two weeks ago.
It's at least showing now on pre-order in a **single** store in my country stating "should be here at end of December". amount? 4 boards lol... and one is already sold






$800 and will be a brick without a discrete graphics card lol


----------



## R. Soul

Hendrixon said:


> I got my cpu on November 8th.
> Today is the 22nd of December and I'm still waiting for a motherboard that was announced on October 12 (Asus X570 Dark Hero) and supposed to be in stores like two weeks ago.
> It's at least showing now on pre-order in a **single** store in my country stating "should be here at end of December". amount? 4 boards lol... and one is already sold
> 
> 
> $800 and will be a brick without a discrete graphics card lol


I have the opposite problem. Got my mobo (Asus Strix B550-F) on 10. November. Haven't found a 5950X yet, or at least one at a decent price. 
I'm still waiting for my case to come in stock as well. I was hoping to build it over christmas when I don't have any projects on, but that seems unlikely now.

Why that mobo anyway? Is it for overclocking?


----------



## Hendrixon

The Dark Hero is a revamped Crosshair Hero VIII (WiFi), a board that was launched a year and a half ago and designed around the Ryzen 3000 SKUs (probably two years ago?). I can only assume that if they had issues/bugs in that board, they fixed it in the Dark Hero.
The fact that Asus revamped only the Hero VIII and non of the other X570 boards could mean two things:
Either its what I stated above or... its a marketing stunt  

Basically all available 2019 X570 boards work with Ryzen 5000s, this is probably why no mobo manufacturer launched a new X570 board (and Asus only one) for the 5000s launch.
What might hint on the marketing "conspiracy" is that its an expensive board, so they didn't plan on selling a lot of it, which could also explain why it can barely be found world wide.
But then, if its a marketing stunt, why do that with a $400 mobo and not a top of the line $600-$700 board?
So its a either an "issues fix update" or an "issues fix update + a piggyback marketing stunt" lol

The REAL difference between the Dark Hero and the 2019 Hero:
1) Vrm upped from 60A to 90A
2) Passive chipset cooling
3) Dynamic O/C
4) The most important feature... its pretty dark visually

For me:
1) Is this just marketing? 60A is enough even for some 16 core o/c. not complaining, I'll take it
2) In my experience this one is big. you can replace any part in a pc over the years, you rarely (if ever) replace the motherboard. my current mobo is 11 years old, everything else was upgraded over the years, the mobo stayed. A Chipset that needs hefty cooling? I don't see active (tiny fan) cooling working for 10 years.
3) Now THAT one is the killer feature. this mobo can switch between Zen 3 own PBO2 ("Precision Boost Overdrive 2" that works great for single core boosts or even 2 or 3 cores dynamically) and manual all core overclocking. it does the switch by sensing how much current the cpu pulls, as above a certain value (can be user defined) it means all cores are stressed so manual all core OC will be active... bellow that threshold PBO2 will be active for best single thread loads.
The thing is that, at least according to Asus, this feature will not be rolling to the other mobos because it uses some hardware feature that as of now only the Dark Hero has.
4) Ok... all the above was a big lie... I want this board because its all black


----------



## novaburst

muk said:


> So, are there any real world experiences available yet? I will have to build a new pc sooner or later. Currently I am looking at either a 5900X or 10850K. Which one is preferable for a DAW build?



I thinks to wait until the markets get full again or you may find that product are over priced


----------



## Hendrixon

Ok, my nephew sms'd me that the shipment with the Asus mobos has landed.
Should have it in a few days and will start the build.


----------



## novaburst

I am on a all AMD setup master and server, i also am on 3rd generation will be given the latest AMDs a miss for now as i pulled the trigger on last gens

not sure what all the myth is about with bad latency i have never experienced and as stable as a rock

64, gives 2.55 ms, 128 gives 3.55 gives 256 gives 5.75 all 3rd gen so these are the slower versions of ANDs line up


----------



## Ben

novaburst said:


> 64, gives 2.55 ms, 128 gives 3.55 gives 256 gives 5.75 all 3rd gen so these are the slower versions of ANDs line up


System Latency =/= Audio Latency
Until Zen2 (Ryzen 3000) the CPUs suffered from higher system latency - > harder to achieve low audio latencies even if the CPU is not fully saturated, higher preload buffer sizes required..


----------



## novaburst

Ben said:


> System Latency =/= Audio Latency
> Until Zen2 (Ryzen 3000) the CPUs suffered from higher system latency - > harder to achieve low audio latencies even if the CPU is not fully saturated, higher preload buffer sizes required..


Ok never an AMD for a long time until these 3rd gens but i think we can safely say that 128 and 256 is kind of the norm for midi recording,

@Ben how is your latest AMD running have you built your machine as yet, i think they are as rock solid as intel so no regrets here


----------



## Ben

Yes, it's running since christmas, so far no regrets - works perfectly.
But I mostly did developing since then and almost no DAW workloads. I have to wait until I get back to my office in a while and can test it in combination with my RME audio interface and heavy DAW projects (but I guess it will jsut work fine as well).
I optimized some Windows settings and enabled the RAM's XMP profile. No additional overclocking.


----------



## novaburst

Ben said:


> I optimized some Windows settings and enabled the RAM's XMP profile. No additional overclocking.


I would say in my setting up i did go through a lot of head bangs on the x570 MB cant be sure if it was the MB as i did go for the cheapest ones or not sure if it was the type of Ram make vengeance or the ram speed xmp i needed to set all ram yo the ram speed default level so no over clocking with ram.


----------



## Ben

novaburst said:


> I would say in my setting up i did go through a lot of head bangs on the x570 MB cant be sure if it was the MB as i did go for the cheapest ones or not sure if it was the type of Ram make vengeance or the ram speed xmp i needed to set all ram yo the ram speed default level so no over clocking with ram.


Never go cheap on the mainboard for expensive CPUs, and never go cheap on mb for audio production. It will always have some kind of issues and you will never know why.
For text-processing, surfing or casual gaming you can buy a 80€ board and it will probably be fine...
More expensive boards have better overall quality, better transformers causing higher stability on CPU and RAM, resulting in better turbo clocks and overclocking. If you get an 5900+ you should spend at least around 180€+ on your board as well imo.


----------



## Hendrixon

novaburst said:


> I am on a all AMD setup master and server, i also am on 3rd generation will be given the latest AMDs a miss for now as i pulled the trigger on last gens
> 
> not sure what all the myth is about with bad latency i have never experienced and as stable as a rock
> 
> 64, gives 2.55 ms, 128 gives 3.55 gives 256 gives 5.75 all 3rd gen so these are the slower versions of ANDs line up



The latency hole, as its called, means that at certain latencies the *voice count* on VIs running in kontakt don't scale well on AMD compered to Intel.
It's mostly comes to effect at 128 samples and still suffers at 256 samples.
At 64 samples AMD is behind by just few percents, and at 512 its back almost to scale like Intel.

It's not about how low your buffer latency is, its about how many voices can be played at that latency.

In general, going from 64 samples to 128 samples, 10th gen Intel cpus will produce around 70%-90% more voices, while AMD will give around +40%. the 3950 suffers the least but can still manage just +60% voices.

From 128 to 256 samples, Intel will scale like +50% more voices and AMD around 50%-60%.
Keep in mind that its "percent", I'll give real numbers bellow so it will be clear.
And from 256 to 512 samples, Intel will scale like 25%-30% more voices and AMD around 30%-40%.
At this stage (512 samples) AMD 3000 pretty much fills back the voice count... apart from the 3900.
Some numbers:






What most ppl don't understand is that these are limits.
Meaning if their AMD system can produce 2000 voices at a set buffer size, while comparable Intel can produce 3000 voices, this is a performance hit, its a fact.
But, if their projects uses 500-1000-1500 voices? they will never feel their system has any issues, and then post something like "my AMD system can do what ever I throw at it, hence there is no issues with performance".

And usually on these boards? if you're a working composer? that means you're an authority for anything related computational performance, be it hardware or software  
Sorry for venting lol


----------



## Hendrixon

Ben said:


> Never go cheap on the mainboard for expensive CPUs, and never go cheap on mb for audio production. It will always have some kind of issues and you will never know why.
> For text-processing, surfing or casual gaming you can buy a 80€ board and it will probably be fine...
> More expensive boards have better overall quality, better transformers causing higher stability on CPU and RAM, resulting in better turbo clocks and overclocking. If you get an 5900+ you should spend at least around 180€+ on your board as well imo.


Words of a wise man.


----------



## Kartus

thanks for clarifying voice count regarding ryzen 3000 series.

how well ryzen 5000 series works regarding voice count? i'm looking into getting a 5950X.


----------



## ComposerWannabe

Hendrixon said:


> The latency hole, as its called, means that at certain latencies the *voice count* on VIs ruining in kontakt don't scale well on AMD compered to Intel.
> It's mostly comes to effect at 128 samples and still suffers at 256 samples.
> At 64 samples AMD is behind by just few percents, and at 512 its back almost to scale like Intel.
> 
> It's not about how low your buffer latency is, its about how many voices can be played at that latency.
> 
> In general, going from 64 samples to 128 samples, 10th gen Intel cpus will produce around 70%-90% more voices, while AMD will give around +40%. the 3950 suffers the least but can still manage just +60% voices.
> 
> From 128 to 256 samples, Intel will scale like +50% more voices and AMD around 50%-60%.
> Keep in mind that its "percent", I'll give real numbers bellow so it will be clear.
> And from 256 to 512 samples, Intel will scale like 25%-30% more voices and AMD around 30%-40%.
> At this stage (512 samples) AMD 3000 pretty much fills back the voice count... apart from the 3900.
> Some numbers:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What most ppl don't understand is that these are limits.
> Meaning if their AMD system can produce 2000 voices at a set buffer size, while comparable Intel can produce 3000 voices, this is a performance hit, its a fact.
> But, if their projects uses 500-1000-1500 voices? they will never feel their system has any issues, and then post something like "my AMD system can do what ever I throw at it, hence there is no issues with performance".
> 
> And usually on these boards? if you're a working composer? that means you're an authority for anything related computational performance, be it hardware or software
> Sorry for venting lol


Do you have this report for Ryzen 5000?


----------



## novaburst

Hendrixon said:


> The latency hole, as its called, means that at certain latencies the *voice count* on VIs ruining in kontakt don't scale well on AMD compered to Intel.
> It's mostly comes to effect at 128 samples and still suffers at 256 samples.
> At 64 samples AMD is behind by just few percents, and at 512 its back almost to scale like Intel.
> 
> It's not about how low your buffer latency is, its about how many voices can be played at that latency.
> 
> In general, going from 64 samples to 128 samples, 10th gen Intel cpus will produce around 70%-90% more voices, while AMD will give around +40%. the 3950 suffers the least but can still manage just +60% voices.
> 
> From 128 to 256 samples, Intel will scale like +50% more voices and AMD around 50%-60%.
> Keep in mind that its "percent", I'll give real numbers bellow so it will be clear.
> And from 256 to 512 samples, Intel will scale like 25%-30% more voices and AMD around 30%-40%.
> At this stage (512 samples) AMD 3000 pretty much fills back the voice count... apart from the 3900.
> Some numbers:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What most ppl don't understand is that these are limits.
> Meaning if their AMD system can produce 2000 voices at a set buffer size, while comparable Intel can produce 3000 voices, this is a performance hit, its a fact.
> But, if their projects uses 500-1000-1500 voices? they will never feel their system has any issues, and then post something like "my AMD system can do what ever I throw at it, hence there is no issues with performance".
> 
> And usually on these boards? if you're a working composer? that means you're an authority for anything related computational performance, be it hardware or software
> Sorry for venting lol


All this is fine good maths but when compared with my intel side by side and putting the cubase dongle in both the AMD was out performing the intel ok you need a half decant sound card but AMD was matching or out performing intel a little.

from gen 3 AMD are fine for music production i am sure there will be a lot of good things said about the new Line of AMD too.

Its not a war now its about will it do the job as well intel or better in production and they are hands down its just that simple its not even a argument its just what it is and with that come a rock solid stable machine with less watts and power consumption


----------



## Hendrixon

My numbers are based on a broad tests session done with custom DawBench tests by scanproaudio, you could read the entire article here:





2020 Q1 – Cpu’s in the Studio overview







www.scanproaudio.info





I simply restructured all the data they published in a way that gave me a clearer insight to how the cpus actually performed computationally relative to each other. the excel I've built was much bigger, and compared mainly how many voices each $ spent on each cpu was worth... as I was planing to build a new system 

I can tell you this, if you factor in the price? best return on investment?
the 3900X, which had the worst performance hole, was actually the BEST deal of all the processors AMD or Intel.

Sorry I don't have numbers for the 5000 series... I wish I had
But based on all non audio benchmarks done so far, its obvious that in the 5000 series AMD fixed exactly this area of L3 access efficiency which increased the IPC (instructions per clock) dramatically.
Based on that I decided to build a new system now with the 5950X.

My current audio system started life in 2009!
With a great motherboard


----------



## novaburst

i hope your pleased with your new build as machines dont drop off trees and hope to have them for some time.

i think when we make decisions on things we need to know the end results are going to be met if the end results are met to ones satisfaction then theory should not get in the way,

before i went with AMD i did a lot of home work, when i actually grabbed one and put it into action 
my fears were removed to the point i deliberately went with 3rd gen with a second build knowing that the 5000 was in the stores.

i press the key i hear the sample like its in real time then i record, thats it, so really i dont know what else to say you know what more do i want my machine to do, i not sure what we are trying to say here.

But i have something nice to say, my this year be another successful year to all try to eat well stay safe 

Above all never forget God and make great music


----------



## Hendrixon

novaburst said:


> i hope your pleased with your new build as machines dont drop off trees and hope to have them for some time.
> 
> i think when we make decisions on things we need to know the end results are going to be met if the end results are met to ones satisfaction then theory should not get in the way,
> 
> before i went with AMD i did a lot of home work, when i actually grabbed one and put it into action
> my fears were removed to the point i deliberately went with 3rd gen with a second build knowing that the 5000 was in the stores.
> 
> i press the key i hear the sample like its in real time then i record, thats it, so really i dont know what else to say you know what more do i want my machine to do, i not sure what we are trying to say here.
> 
> But i have something nice to say, my this year be another successful year to all try to eat well stay safe
> 
> Above all never forget God and make great music


Brother, my last post was directed to those that asked if I had numbers for the 5000 series
I just explained from where I got my numbers regarding the 3000 series vs Intel 10th gen.

Why did you choose to build another 3000 system now that the 5000 are out?

Btw I'm at all not please with my build, cause as of right now there is no "build".
All I have in my hands is just the cpu lol
Waited a month and a half for the motherboard to arrive, which should be in my hands early next week.
Waited with the purchase for the rest of the parts till I'll have the board cause new stuff trickles all the time and prices fluctuate. 
I plan to buy all the parts this week and start this build... the longest build I ever had in my life... and I'm building my own machines almost 30 years now


----------



## novaburst

Hendrixon said:


> Why did you choose to build another 3000 system now that the 5000 are out?


with what i am doing, i dont believe the 5000 would get me better results even known its a better CPU for sure, 

I think looking at the system as a whole there maybe offsets playing a part into why i think my system run very well who knows, i did over clock the CPU but not the ram or rather was unable too, but plenty fast

one thing i did notice is perhaps Graphic cards do play a part in how your system performs as while i hit chords i can see the GPU numbers going up and down 



Hendrixon said:


> the longest build I ever had in my life... and I'm building my own machines almost 30 years now


i would say take your time and dont pay more than you need to as things will come into play eventually and you will have more of a choice in gear and prices.

In the gaming world something strange happened a game came out that only runs well on the PC or next gen consoles, but failed to run good on last gen consoles PS4, XBOX1

So if suddenly a developer created a megger wooger must have library that would not run on last gen then i would end up rebuilding.

as it goes that has only happen to me once when i was still on window XP 32bit and tried to run Omnisphere by Spectrotrnics on it, my machine started screaming, thus i built my first 64bit Windows 7 

I cant see that happening again this side of the century with the Power these machines have.

Why did i go for a new build................ i oonly had mainly one goal in mind and that was my old machines was ram limited and needed to get at least 64 to 128 GB out of each machine.

The speed and amount of cores is a big bonus on the AMD


----------



## Hendrixon

I know you guys like pc parts lists (yea I'm also guilty) so here is mine finally:

CPU: 5950X
Cooler: Arctic Liquid Freezer II 360
Motherboard: Asus Dark Hero
PSU: Asus Rog 850W (in white to go with...)
Case: Lian Li O11 Dynamic... in white
Case Fans: Six Arctic BioniX P120 (I mention that only because... they are also in white lol)
Ram: 128GB G.Skill Ripjaws V 4000mhz CAS18 (black)
GPU: Sapphire Radeon RX 5600 XT PULSE 6GB
Storage: Corsair MP400 4TB (for samples) + Samsung 970 Evo Plus 2TB (system).
* Have on the way an Asus nvme pcie 4.0 adapter so will split the cpu pcie lanes to 1x8 for the pgu and 2x4 for two extra Nvme drives direct to cpu. one Nvme will come from the old audio pc so will have another M.2 socket for future expantion.

So far I have in my hands the cpu, motherboard (it arrived!!!) and psu.
The rest should be here in the next few days apart from the case... which apparently is out of stock.
I can't believe that I'm saying this, but until the next Lian Li shipment will arrive, I'm putting this $4500 pile of parts in a pc case I have around from... I don't know... 15 years ago?  
That will be fun lol (or not)


----------



## R. Soul

Hendrixon said:


> I know you guys like pc parts lists (yea I'm also guilty) so here is mine finally:
> 
> CPU: 5950X
> Cooler: Arctic Liquid Freezer II 360
> Motherboard: Asus Dark Hero
> PSU: Asus Rog 850W (in white to go with...)
> Case: Lian Li O11 Dynamic... in white
> Case Fans: Six Arctic BioniX P120 (I mention that only because... they are also in white lol)
> Ram: 128GB G.Skill Ripjaws V 4000mhz CAS18 (black)
> GPU: Sapphire Radeon RX 5600 XT PULSE 6GB
> Storage: Corsair MP400 4TB (for samples) + Samsung 970 Evo Plus 2TB (system).
> * Have on the way an Asus nvme pcie 4.0 adapter so will split the cpu pcie lanes to 1x8 for the pgu and 2x4 for two extra Nvme drives direct to cpu. one Nvme will come from the old audio pc so will have another M.2 socket for future expantion.
> 
> So far I have in my hands the cpu, motherboard (it arrived!!!) and psu.
> The rest should be here in the next few days apart from the case... which apparently is out of stock.
> I can't believe that I'm saying this, but until the next Lian Li shipment will arrive, I'm putting this $4500 pile of parts in a pc case I have around from... I don't know... 15 years ago?
> That will be fun lol (or not)


I've got my 5950x + all parts here. I wanted a Lian Li Lancool II mesh case, but like you, it's out of stock, so I just got a simple Phanteks P400A instead.

I'm doing it 'on the cheap' - grabbing GPU (R9 380) and 1 + 2 tb SSD's + 2 tb external HDD from my current pc.
Only bought a 256 GB 970 evo Nvme for Windows.

Just trying to find a time to actually build it, now that the kids are being home schooled 

Here's the full list
CPU:Ryzen 5950x
Cooler: Noctua NH-D15s
Mobo:Asus Strix B550-F 
Case: Phanteks P400A
PSU: Corsair RM750X
Storage: Crucial 2TB, Sandisk 1TB, 256 GB 970 EVO (Win).


----------



## Ben

R. Soul said:


> Just trying to find a time to actually build it, now that the kids are being home schooled


You can make building it into a class


----------



## Hendrixon

Ben said:


> You can make building it into a class


When my first nephew was born, he had these little dolls hanging above his cradle, you know to keep him busy. so I jokingly told my brother that if he won't be careful "'with this crap" his son will play with dolls later on  
He asked so what he should put there, and I said "just put various pcb parts, old pci cards etc"

A week later I came to visit and I see above the baby hanging little matchbox cars LOL
I asked him what gives? and he said his wife said no to pci cards LOLLLLL


FF 28 years later, and this little boy is now in pc retail and set me up with the 5950X!


----------



## Hendrixon

R. Soul said:


> Cooler: Noctua NH-D15s


I have an NH-D14, the previous one which is practically the same, in my old audio pc running smoothly from 2009! fans still work as new! amazing engineering.

My first plan on the new build was to go again with the Noctua, but doing lots of readings I found that some recent AIO (like Arctic) produce the same noise level as the D15... while obviously now performing better then the best air coolers. the big Noctua is still a beast and will do the job, but I decided to go with AIO mainly for the ram clearance + all the above.

Actually up until a week ago non of the big Arctic coolers were in stock locally, but they showed up just before the weekend with also their newest and biggest 420mm cooler
Oh man I wanted to get it so much, but then it would require a huge(!) case.

Doing the math, a 360 cooler is less than 10% bigger then the same thickness 280mm cooler. the length number is misleading, as both radiator area (and volume) and effective fans area (minus motor area) are as I stated.
Now the 420 one IS bigger, it's effectively about 25% bigger then the 360. 

Price difference (locally):
280 to 360 is +13%
360 to 420 is +19%

Very good value vs price.


----------



## Oebe

Seems like an very interesting CPU and platform. I ask - probably - a lot of my machine, but I never got the X-99A with 5820K to work really stable. Since the last Windows update 20H2 its a big mess with a lot of USB freezes. Anyway, looking forward to reading something about this. 

Sidenote: For my system I use a UFX+ via USB3 (TB works, but these ASUS ex-3 keep dying over here :/) with two ADAT expanders and one MADI. Together with a UM-880 midi interface, usb midi keyboard, uad2 card and two dongles I am not asking to much I think, but for the X-99a I do. On other fora I read that although this is a so called high end platform it just sucked for multichannel audio :/


----------



## Hendrixon

Oebe said:


> Seems like an very interesting CPU and platform. I ask - probably - a lot of my machine, but I never got the X-99A with 5820K to work really stable. Since the last Windows update 20H2 its a big mess with a lot of USB freezes. Anyway, looking forward to reading something about this.
> 
> Sidenote: For my system I use a UFX+ via USB3 (TB works, but these ASUS ex-3 keep dying over here :/) with two ADAT expanders and one MADI. Together with a UM-880 midi interface, usb midi keyboard, uad2 card and two dongles I am not asking to much I think, but for the X-99a I do. On other fora I read that although this is a so called high end platform it just sucked for multichannel audio :/


You need to research your system motherboard thoroughly, which sockets and slots are connected directly to your cpu via pcie lanes. the motherboard manual will have all this data.

Regarding OS, reading stuff like your experience with win10 bugs me...
I know many use it just fine, and my laptop is win10 and its fine but that's for office work.
On the other hand, win 7 64bit works perfect for me, drivers for win10 work fine on 7, but yea it starts showing its age, as for example it has no native support for Nvme drives.

M$ issued an Nvme driver that works fine, but once they saw its popularity, which meant prolonging win 7's life even more, they removed it completely! if you follow the link to M$'s site, it redirects to a win10 upgrade page.
Still, its available online as ppl share it.

Not sure what to do...


----------



## Oebe

Oh that sucks Hendrixon and thanks for the information. I do love windows 10 btw it has been stable for years at two machines over here - apart from all the tweaking I have to do haha.

I will first try a re-install over here and give it a last try, after that - if it is still not working - I am done we X99. I did my homework btw. Tried all combinations different usb controllers chipsets, different videocard different sata drives and now even an NVME drive. As long as I don't use to much USB ports at the same time its ok, but that's not what I want, I want to use them all


----------



## Hendrixon

Oebe said:


> but that's not what I want, I want to use them all


Ain't we all lol
Btw you should be able to roll back updates, and then read this, how to stop updates:








The supported ways to control updates in Windows 10 - Gearspace.com


Posting this here because I want a single place to refer to, rather than repeat this information, buried in various threads. Background: I work at Microsoft, in Windows. I also have a primary PC I use at home for development, general use, video editing, a



www.gearslutz.com


----------



## Oebe

Thanks again Hendrixon, just read this post. Easy tweaks. I did tweak a lot furhter with the black viper list. But once again, it is probably due to the X99 chipset, which, althoug pro/high-end - is just mediocre. :/


----------



## novaburst

Hendrixon said:


> pile of parts in a pc case I have around from... I don't know... 15 years ago?
> That will be fun lol (or not)


I think you should use a new case as it will have the USB 3 connection cable for case USB also some come with 240mm front fan intake the bigger the fan the more quite they run,


----------



## Ryan

R. Soul said:


> Just trying to find a time to actually build it, now that the kids are being home schooled


And that's one of the reasons I'm about to order a Threadripper Pro build from Lenovo :D


----------



## Hendrixon

novaburst said:


> I think you should use a new case as it will have the USB 3 connection cable for case USB also some come with 240mm front fan intake the bigger the fan the more quite they run,


I ordered a Lian Li O11 Dynamic but its out of stock.
Using an old case just as a temp build until a new shipment will arrive (they said 2 weeks).


----------



## novaburst

Ben said:


> Never go cheap on the mainboard for expensive CPUs, and never go cheap on mb for audio production. It will always have some kind of issues and you will never know why.
> For text-processing, surfing or casual gaming you can buy a 80€ board and it will probably be fine...
> More expensive boards have better overall quality, better transformers causing higher stability on CPU and RAM, resulting in better turbo clocks and overclocking. If you get an 5900+ you should spend at least around 180€+ on your board as well imo.



Turned out to be old Bios latest Bios don the trick MSI X570 A Pro perhaps cheap was not a good word but more of a budget as they are still over a ton to purchase so if your on a budget ,,,,,,,yea


----------



## Ben

novaburst said:


> Turned out to be old Bios latest Bios don the trick MSI X570 A Pro perhaps cheap was not a good word but more of a budget as they are still over a ton to purchase so if your on a budget ,,,,,,,yea


I also had to flash my bios. It event wouldn't recognize the CPU, but thanks to the direct flash from pendrive feature I got it running without an additional CPU.


----------



## Hendrixon

Ryan said:


> And that's one of the reasons I'm about to order a Threadripper Pro build from Lenovo :D


You might want to hold for a bit more, TR with Gen 3 architecture will launch very soon.
Rumor from a reliable source has it that there will be again a 16 core TR sku... which have I known (and was able to wait), I'd go for that in a heartbeat.

I wonder if this will really happen or was it just a one off engineering sample.
And if it is real, what will be the price...


----------



## Ryan

Hendrixon said:


> You might want to hold for a bit more, TR with Gen 3 architecture will launch very soon.
> Rumor from a reliable source has it that there will be again a 16 core TR sku... which have I known (and was able to wait), I'd go for that in a heartbeat.
> 
> I wonder if this will really happen or was it just a one off engineering sample.
> And if it is real, what will be the price...


Yeah. I know there is a new Zen3 around the corner, so I will most likely wait and see what they present. I highly doubt they will release a 16core TR.. Mainly because of the OEM-deal they have with Lenovo.. But I could be wrong!


----------



## Hendrixon

Ryan said:


> Yeah. I know there is a new Zen3 around the corner, so I will most likely wait and see what they present. I highly doubt they will release a 16core TR.. Mainly because of the OEM-deal they have with Lenovo.. But I could be wrong!


Why core count has anything to do with Lenovo?


----------



## Ryan

Hendrixon said:


> Why core count has anything to do with Lenovo?



I just thought it would be a good deal to Lenovo to have the 16core TR CPU exclusively for them self.. Right now they fill that gap I was looking for. An 5950x has to few lanes for my work and I see it not as futureproof to buy.. The 16core Pro build have 128-lanes, and that's perfect for future upgrades with nvme's, gpus, etc etc. That's why I think Lenovo may have some influence on whether AMD will push out new TR3 16cores or not.


----------



## Hendrixon

Ryan said:


> I just thought it would be a good deal to Lenovo to have the 16core TR CPU exclusively for them self.. Right now they fill that gap I was looking for. An 5950x has to few lanes for my work and I see it not as futureproof to buy.. The 16core Pro build have 128-lanes, and that's perfect for future upgrades with nvme's, gpus, etc etc. That's why I think Lenovo may have some influence on whether AMD will push out new TR3 16cores or not.


I'm not familiar with such a thing but did AMD ever made a cpu SKU that only Lenovo had access to?

And I totally agree, technically TR 4th(?) Gen will be a perfect platform to have as of now.
At first glance with a 16 core SKU my reaction is "bummer, I could have managed to stretch a bit more for this", but thinking about it - for me - I'm not so sure...

I'll break it down for those like me (prosumer or even weekend working composer):

sTRX40 motherboards are around x2 the price of comparable AM4 boards.
So a $400 board becomes $800.
My guess, if a 16 core variant will ship, its launch price will be around $1100 ($67 per core, previously was $62).
So for 16 cores its $300 above a 5950X.
This system will need a hefty PSU to support all that extra peripherals... so let say +$250.
In total its almost $1000 (before your local VAT and extra taxes etc) on top of a comparable 5950X system.

CPU performance?
That will be the same... a 16 core TR 4th Gen is practically a 5950X with a TR i/o die.
(32 and 64 cores is a different design)

But what you gain is:
Real world limitless pcie lanes direct to the cpu.
Support for 256GB memory with quad channel config.
Double the DMI bandwidth of X570 (8x4.0 vs 4x4.0 pcie lanes).

So its bandwidth thru the roof

OK, so who is this for?
This will be ideal for someone that has a HUGE amount of sample libraries and does very big projects, which means its either a real working pro composer or a pro video editor that needs the bandwidth and direct access nvme space.
Hobbyist hoarders? not for them as they just buy, they don't really use

For me, a prosumer (comparable to a weekend/occasional composer that does small projects), with BiFurcation on X570 I get three Nvme drives connected direct to the cpu, which is not great, maybe OK'ish?
Yea 5-6 drives would've been idea for me for future expansion and even raiding Nvme drives

On second thought, another Nvme drive of pcie 3.0 thru the chipset is totally fine, because even though the DMI uplink is just 4 pcie lanes... those are pcie 4.0 lanes... which means the data throughput of this 3.0 Nvme will occupy only 50% of the DMI bandwidth!
Sure its not direct to the cpu but its totally fine

Hey I can have 4 Nvme drives!!! lol
I just made my self happy LOL
Bottom line for me the 5950X/X570 (same processing power, 128GB ram, 4 Nvmes) will be fine.
Now if Hans will let me do the next Batman, yea I will upgrade for sure


----------



## Ryan

Hendrixon said:


> I'm not familiar with such a thing but did AMD ever made a cpu SKU that only Lenovo had access to?
> 
> And I totally agree, technically TR 4th(?) Gen will be a perfect platform to have as of now.
> At first glance with a 16 core SKU my reaction is "bummer, I could have managed to stretch a bit more for this", but thinking about it - for me - I'm not so sure...
> 
> I'll break it down for those like me (prosumer or even weekend working composer):
> 
> sTRX40 motherboards are around x2 the price of comparable AM4 boards.
> So a $400 board becomes $800.
> My guess, if a 16 core variant will ship, its launch price will be around $1100 ($67 per core, previously was $62).
> So for 16 cores its $300 above a 5950X.
> This system will need a hefty PSU to support all that extra peripherals... so let say +$250.
> In total its almost $1000 (before your local VAT and extra taxes etc) on top of a comparable 5950X system.
> 
> CPU performance?
> That will be the same... a 16 core TR 4th Gen is practically a 5950X with a TR i/o die.
> (32 and 64 cores is a different design)
> 
> But what you gain is:
> Real world limitless pcie lanes direct to the cpu.
> Support for 256GB memory with quad channel config.
> Double the DMI bandwidth of X570 (8x4.0 vs 4x4.0 pcie lanes).
> 
> So its bandwidth thru the roof
> 
> OK, so who is this for?
> This will be ideal for someone that has a HUGE amount of sample libraries and does very big projects, which means its either a real working pro composer or a pro video editor that needs the bandwidth and direct access nvme space.
> Hobbyist hoarders? not for them as they just buy, they don't really use
> 
> For me, a prosumer (comparable to a weekend/occasional composer that does small projects), with BiFurcation on X570 I get three Nvme drives connected direct to the cpu, which is not great, maybe OK'ish?
> Yea 5-6 drives would've been idea for me for future expansion and even raiding Nvme drives
> 
> On second thought, another Nvme drive of pcie 3.0 thru the chipset is totally fine, because even though the DMI uplink is just 4 pcie lanes... those are pcie 4.0 lanes... which means the data throughput of this 3.0 Nvme will occupy only 50% of the DMI bandwidth!
> Sure its not direct to the cpu but its totally fine
> 
> Hey I can have 4 Nvme drives!!! lol
> I just made my self happy LOL
> Bottom line for me the 5950X/X570 (same processing power, 128GB ram, 4 Nvmes) will be fine.
> Now if Hans will let me do the next Batman, yea I will upgrade for sure


No, I think you only get two nvme connected directly to the cpu with the X570. I've done a lot of research on this last year. And my conclusion was that It could only handle 2 nvme-drives directly to the cpu.. https://linustechtips.com/topic/121...herboard-with-bifurcation-full-atx-or-larger/

Also some cards don't support BiFurcation settings in bias at all. It all goes automatically. 

But, our needs and workloads are very different as you describe. For me at least. 

Good luck with your build! Looking forward to hear how the performance is.


----------



## Technostica

Hendrixon said:


> I'll break it down for those like me (prosumer or even weekend working composer):
> 
> sTRX40 motherboards are around x2 the price of comparable AM4 boards.
> So a $400 board becomes $800.
> My guess, if a 16 core variant will ship, its launch price will be around $1100 ($67 per core, previously was $62).
> So for 16 cores its $300 above a 5950X.
> This system will need a hefty PSU to support all that extra peripherals... so let say +$250.
> In total its almost $1000 (before your local VAT and extra taxes etc) on top of a comparable 5950X system.


That's one way to crunch the numbers but you could easily do it for half of that.
The PSU figure seems especially high.


----------



## Hendrixon

Ryan said:


> No, I think you only get two nvme connected directly to the cpu with the X570. I've done a lot of research on this last year. And my conclusion was that It could only handle 2 nvme-drives directly to the cpu.. https://linustechtips.com/topic/121...herboard-with-bifurcation-full-atx-or-larger/
> 
> Also some cards don't support BiFurcation settings in bias at all. It all goes automatically.
> 
> But, our needs and workloads are very different as you describe. For me at least.
> 
> Good luck with your build! Looking forward to hear how the performance is.


Regarding Nvme, Gigabyte mid/upper tier boards support BF in the bios, you can use any 3rd party adapter with them.
Asus does that also (at least) if you use their adapter card.

The adapters from Asus and Giga support 4 Nvme drives, so with spiting the 16 lanes (8+8) you can have two more drives. with the M.2 socket in X570 its 3 drives in total.
Figure in a 3.0 drive thru the chipset... not bad.



> But, our needs and workloads are very different as you describe. For me at least.


100%
A TR 4th gen can do the job of a small VEP farm easily, with less headache and higher reliability.

Its funny, I remember buying a Compaq server for a project for $30,000... it had 4 dual core Xeons (so 8 cores in total) at 500MHz and 8gig of ram


----------



## Pictus

In the Gigabyte B550 Master, all 3 M.2 slots are PCIe GEN4 x4, but if you use more(anything other
the M.2 slot close to the CPU) than 1 M.2 SSD, the GPU will be x8 GEN3 or GEN4, but x8 GEN4 has
the same bandwidth as x16 GEN3, the good part is that no B550 has the small chipset fan.


----------



## Hendrixon

Technostica said:


> That's one way to crunch the numbers but you could easily do it for half of that.
> The PSU figure seems especially high.


I used pcpartpicker to get ballpark numbers.
Sure you could do it for less, I could do my X570 build for less too
To get a comparison more even, same level parts, its around what I wrote above.

Looking again, yea I did exaggerate with the psu, you could do it for less.
Still a good 1200W psu is not pocket money, it adds up.

Either way, 16 core Ryzen vs 16 core TR, the bottom line is the same, if you need the throughput and direct access to a huge and fast (key factor) disk space, the coming TR 4th gen IS the platform to get.
If a 16 core TR will come, going with a 5950X is a compromise. each one will need to factor if this compromise limits him/her or not.

My own gut feeling when I read about it was "grrr I could still cancel my order and wait for this".
But yea, I found that for me, I won't sacrifice that much staying with the Ryzen 16c.
Plus doing this whole process again, waiting for a new cpu, buying new parts for the TR when many parts are out of stock... I won't handle this

I started my build plans 3 months ago and I still don't have all the parts.
Stocks evaporate as they come and prices just get higher


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## Hendrixon

Pictus said:


> In the Gigabyte B550 Master, all 3 M.2 slots are PCIe GEN4 x4, but if you use more(anything other
> the M.2 slot close to the CPU) than 1 M.2 SSD, the GPU will be x8 GEN3 or GEN4, but x8 GEN4 has
> the same bandwidth as x16 GEN3, the good part is that no B550 has the small chipset fan.


Just saw the schematic! nice design!
They pretty much lay it out for you, no need for extra adapter

The DMI on those boards is still pcie 3.0, but honestly for most users its not that big of a deal since you have 3 nvme drives to the cpu, meaning your heavy bandwidth uses don't pass thru it.


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## easyrider

New AGESA 1.1.9.0 BIOSes are coming in January and February for 
@AMD
Ryzen 5000 Series processors. Changes:

Win10 s0i3 support

Stability tuning for 1800-2000MHz FCLK (OC)

Support for passive X570 motherboards

General stability improvements


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## Hendrixon

> Stability tuning for 1800-2000MHz FCLK (OC)


Finally!
If they'll get it right its a huge step!



> Support for passive X570 motherboards


Wonder how they implemented this...
Either found a way to optimize some procedures thus able to undervolt the chipset, or allow thermal throttling. the first is great, the second might effect performance of some peripherals (for example chipset usb and sata busses).


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## Alex Sopala

Hendrixon said:


> I'm not familiar with such a thing but did AMD ever made a cpu SKU that only Lenovo had access to?


Threadripper Pro. Basically Threadripper that can use LRDIMMs, ergo much more RAM than otherwise accessible. Haven't seen many reviews on it, but I know that LTT is working on a video about that right now. Also a video for audio workloads, which I've been waiting for for YEARS.


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## Hendrixon

Alex Sopala said:


> Threadripper Pro. Basically Threadripper that can use LRDIMMs, ergo much more RAM than otherwise accessible. Haven't seen many reviews on it, but I know that LTT is working on a video about that right now. Also a video for audio workloads, which I've been waiting for for YEARS.


True the TR Pro, forgot all about it.
It came out mid last year, and yea not much info about it cause it never reached the general public.

Interestingly they issued not just 16c but also 12c SKUs.
Well if the spotted sample 16c TRG4 (this naming starts to get too long lol) will be like the 3KWX SKU, I'm not sure how interesting it will be for audio work compared to "regular" TR and Ryzen:
Lower Clocks.
ECC mem a must.
* at least win10 pro WS is not a must.
If you can find one it seems to cost double the vanilla TR.

What is your use case that 256GB ram and +60 pcie lanes on a single machine are not enough?
Now I'm intrigued


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## Alex Sopala

Hendrixon said:


> True the TR Pro, forgot all about it.
> It came out mid last year, and yea not much info about it cause it never reached the general public.
> 
> Interestingly they issued not just 16c but also 12c SKUs.
> Well if the spotted sample 16c TRG4 (this naming starts to get too long lol) will be like the 3KWX SKU, I'm not sure how interesting it will be for audio work compared to "regular" TR and Ryzen:
> Lower Clocks.
> ECC mem a must.
> * at least win10 pro WS is not a must.
> If you can find one it seems to cost double the vanilla TR.
> 
> What is your use case that 256GB ram and +60 pcie lanes on a single machine are not enough?
> Now I'm intrigued


Mine? More just for upgradeability should I need it. I definitely need a bit more than 128GB to run Berlin Orchestra plus the expansions (I also have the template load literally all the possible articulations) as it stands, and that's just with one mic. I also would rather not have to purge samples (I do it as a stop-gap, but I don't find it ideal for my personal workflow), and if I want to use more mic positions and blend them, I need more RAM. 256 is probably good enough for my needs as it stands, but I like knowing I have a buffer if I need to upgrade RAM.

Where it makes sense for TR Pro and the RAM capacity is things like virtualization. LTT talked about the 64 core Threadripper, and how it's severely limited by its cap of 256 GB RAM for that use case (among a few others) with that many cores. Scientific workflows such as flow simulations also require insane amounts of RAM.


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## Hendrixon

Alex Sopala said:


> Mine? More just for upgradeability should I need it. I definitely need a bit more than 128GB to run Berlin Orchestra plus the expansions (I also have the template load literally all the possible articulations) as it stands, and that's just with one mic. I also would rather not have to purge samples (I do it as a stop-gap, but I don't find it ideal for my personal workflow), and if I want to use more mic positions and blend them, I need more RAM. 256 is probably good enough for my needs as it stands, but I like knowing I have a buffer if I need to upgrade RAM.
> 
> Where it makes sense for TR Pro and the RAM capacity is things like virtualization. LTT talked about the 64 core Threadripper, and how it's severely limited by its cap of 256 GB RAM for that use case (among a few others) with that many cores. Scientific workflows such as flow simulations also require insane amounts of RAM.


Thanks.
Regarding memory I totally agree, it was the single aspect I felt uneasy going with an X570 build.

btw, if anyone interested, I got all the parts (minus case) and started building the pc.
I got 4x32GB of 4000mhz cas18 sticks. trying to boot with these XMP settings didn't work, but setting it to [email protected] boots fine (no tweaking or anything)  
[email protected] also didn't boot.
Didn't try [email protected] as its slower then [email protected]

In general [email protected] should perform the same as [email protected] so I don't think I'll try to push higher clocks before the next AGESA will be available. no point in pushing the system and voltage stressing parts just because the bios is not optimized.


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## Ryan

ohh, Looks like I'm about to build me self a Threadripper Pro build with that Supermicro MB! 
Been using Supermicro MB-card since 2010, and that card is still my main workstation! Superduper! 









AMD Opens Up Threadripper Pro: Three New WRX80 Motherboards







www.anandtech.com


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## composingkeys

Anyone tested out the 5950 to see how it performs? Can you get 128 or 64 buffer easily with this processor?


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## Hendrixon

Ryan said:


> ohh, Looks like I'm about to build me self a Threadripper Pro build with that Supermicro MB!
> Been using Supermicro MB-card since 2010, and that card is still my main workstation! Superduper!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AMD Opens Up Threadripper Pro: Three New WRX80 Motherboards
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.anandtech.com


Yea saw it last night! 

Pay attention to two things:
1. It seems the TRPro SKU will be offered to system integrators, not to the consumer market (at least not currently), which means the boards will also follow that trail.
2. These TRPro SKU are Zen 2 chiplet based, not Zen 3. if you have access to a TR machine then test your setup on it cause that's the performance you'll get with the TRPro.

128 lanes + 2T mem = 


Edit:
I just saw on a Gamers Nexus video a quote that said TRPro will be available thru "participating global retailers, e-tailers and system integrators" so it seem they will be available to diyers.


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## Hendrixon

composingkeys said:


> Anyone tested out the 5950 to see how it performs? Can you get 128 or 64 buffer easily with this processor?


I can use 64 sample buffer with a Babyface Pro on a Xeon cpu from 2011 and motherboard from 2009... cpu is just one part of the equation that goes like this (most important is first):
- Interface design and drivers efficiency
- Your project load
- cpu efficiency
- Motherboard design


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## R. Soul

Hendrixon said:


> I can use 64 sample buffer with a Babyface Pro on a Xeon cpu from 2011 and motherboard from 2009... cpu is just one part of the equation that goes like this (most important is first):
> - Interface design and drivers efficiency
> - Your project load
> - cpu efficiency
> - Motherboard design


What exactly do you mean by 'interface design'? 

Does audio interface have a big role in determining how many VSTi's I can run at the same time, or is it purely a main factor for having low latency?

Now that I've got a Ryzen 9 I'm just wondering if upgrading my UR12 to for example Babyface pro fs would allow me to run bigger projects?


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## Kartus

Hendrixon said:


> - Interface design and drivers efficiency
> - Your project load
> - cpu efficiency
> - Motherboard design


Does RAM clock speed has to be on this list too?


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## Hendrixon

> What exactly do you mean by 'interface design'?


Not all DACs are the same, some are slower/faster then others, though not by much.
It all depends on your use case, if its say Vdrums triggering EZDrummer/BFD/AD2, few milliseconds added here and there can through a drummer off. but if you play orchestral libs you can tolerate 5-10 ms.
In some cases designers add safety buffers for stability, programmed buffers that are there no matter what latency the user chooses.




> Does audio interface have a big role in determining how many VSTi's I can run at the same time


You need to differentiate between number of VSTis and Voice Count (polyphony).
Your system (cpu and interface and DAW) have *no clue* what "number of VSTis" means, all they see is numbers crunching (processing) and audio streams (voices).
If you'll have on the same track 10 VSTis (say all sample based) that each produce 50 voices, your system will handle this the same way as if you had a single VSTi that does 500 voices.

If you use highly modeled analog synths that are processing heavy, then its more important that your cpu can handle them. usually those will not produce hundreds of voices.




> or is it purely a main factor for having low latency?


The lower the latency, the more load there is on your system, as it needs to move more and smaller data packets for the same voice count.
This is where efficiency comes to play, how efficient your interface drivers are, your cpu, your daw, your VSTi's engine.
Yea I forgot to add to the list above that your sampler/synth engine has a HUGE impact on performance. also scripting quality/complexity can bog down a VSTi.

It's a whole pile of uncertainties


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## Hendrixon

Kartus said:


> Does RAM clock speed has to be on this list too?


I never tested this (maybe I will try this on the new build) but I'd assume that as long as you don't use really old and slow sticks the impact will be marginal.

Just remember that its not just memory access speed, its a combo of speed and latency.
For example in general a [email protected] ([email protected]) dimms will perform the same as [email protected] and [email protected] there can be a difference where some applications will favor memory latency while others will favor memory access speed, but on average of multiple apps you'll get the same performance.

As I wrote above, the engine of your chosen sampler/synth will have a greater impact then probably other things... but that's a whole other can of worms


Edit:
Where memory speed does have a big impact is with AMD cpus, as the best performance (most times) you'll get is when the infinity fabric clock/memory controller clock/memory "clock/speed" are all in sync of 1:1:1 (real mem clock is actually half of what we call memory "mhz", so a "3600mhz" dimm is actually working at 1800mhz).
With Intel there is no infinity fabric so all components are independent to run freely.

With AMD, the IF was designed to work @1600mhz (so 3200 dimms were the goal).
With Zen 2 you could overclock the IF to 1800mhz so using 3600 dimms maintained 1:1:1 ratio and gave the best performance.
With Zen 3 you should have been able to reach 1900 and even 2000 mhz IF (so 3800 and 4000 dimms are ideal), but that's not working well. AMD stated that they will address this in the next AGESA update (which is now in beta).

Some users reach those settings but with some sticks and in small size dimms (that can use high bid chips).


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## Pictus




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## composingkeys

Does the AMD 5950x stay steady at a fixed CPU Clock Speed when using it in a DAW scenario or does it fluctuate? What speed does it stay at?


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## Hendrixon

composingkeys said:


> Does the AMD 5950x stay steady at a fixed CPU Clock Speed when using it in a DAW scenario or does it fluctuate? What speed does it stay at?


You can set it either way in the bios.
By default out of the box all motherboards are set to let the cpu handle it self, so yea all cores fluctuate.

Btw first tests with my "temp" build, no overclocking or tweaking, looking for system limits:
Testing @48 samples (the lowest my interface supports)
I can play chords together with all CSS individual sections, all 3 mics enabled.
I can play chords together with all Berlin Strings individual sections, all 4-5 mics enabled.

Loading both CSS and Berlin Strings, all sections and all mics, everything in a single kontakt instance, I could play chords nicely @96 samples. at that stage kontakt streams up to 1500 voices.
Trying to play very fast moves, voice count bumps up rapidly to 2000 voices and more. for that I had to use 96 samples.

Some hardware monitoring:
Room temp estimate around 18C-20c.
cpu idle around 35c, while playing CSS+BS is about 42c, cpu max 45c (all open case).
chipset @58c constant, passive cooling.
VRM @40c constant (some cooling from Arctic AIO that has a VRM fan).

The dram emits the most heat (fingers touching test lol), there is a single reported parameter called "Temp9" which reports 50c, I assume its a probe near or under the dram.


Edit:
Two cores hit a max of 5050mhz
One core hit 5000mhz
Most times cores go from 3600-4750.
Lowest clock recorded at 2400mhz, probably when I was away.


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## Hendrixon

Splitting CSS and Berlin to two channels, I can play both @48 samples.
I use Reaper which designates a thread per track, I assume most modern daws do that in some form or another.

Btw I'm talking about live playing, real time, not a replay of recorded midi which is less taxing.


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## peladio

Is 5950x that much better than 5900x for DAW use? Are there any relevant benchmarks..number of Kontakt voices or synth instances..


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## Hendrixon

Per core they should be very similar. In audio


peladio said:


> Is 5950x that much better than 5900x for DAW use? Are there any relevant benchmarks..number of Kontakt voices or synth instances..


From Scanaudiopro tests it shows that cpus are not the same even though their building blocks are the same. for example in the 3000 series the 3900 suffered the most from the performance hole (more then the 3950 and 3700/3800)... even though bottom line when price was part of the equation, the 3900 was still the best buy, especially when it had a price drop. 

All that doesn't mean the 5900 will show the same behavior, for all we know it should have more L3 cache per core compared to the 8 or 16 core skus, but the Zen 3 design is more streamlined.

Putting all that aside, assuming liner scale of performance per core count, at audio work (which is mainly multi thread) the 5950 will provide +33% of performance over the 5900 for +31.25% of the price. I think its a good value as is, mainly when factoring in the cost of a whole pc build from scratch.

Here is a short analysis of the AMD cpus, each relative the cpu under it:



cores​cpu​performance delta​Price delta​16​5950​+33.33%​+31.25%​12​5900​+50.00%​+18.18%​8​5800​+33.33%​+33.33%​6​5600​

It can be seen that the 5900 over the 5800 is a no brainer deal.
Now if we compare the 5950 to the 5800 this is what we get:


cores​cpu​performance​Price​16​5950​+100.00%​+43.75%​8​5800​


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## Audio Birdi

Hendrixon said:


> Some hardware monitoring:
> Room temp estimate around 18C-20c.
> cpu idle around 35c, while playing CSS+BS is about 42c, cpu max 45c (all open case).
> chipset @58c constant, passive cooling.
> VRM @40c constant (some cooling from Arctic AIO that has a VRM fan).


I'm wondering what CPU cooler you're using since it's Passively cooled?


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## Hendrixon

Audio Birdi said:


> I'm wondering what CPU cooler you're using since it's Passively cooled?


The motherboard I chose (Asus dark hero) has passive cooling for the X570 chipset.
The cpu is cooled with an Arctic Liquid Freezer II 360.

Btw the temps above were when I didn't have a case, now with a case these are the idle temps:






And here is the final build:


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## Batwaffel

Hendrixon said:


> The motherboard I chose (Asus dark hero) has passive cooling for the X570 chipset.
> The cpu is cooled with an Arctic Liquid Freezer II 360.
> 
> Btw the temps above were when I didn't have a case, now with a case these are the idle temps:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here is the final build:


I got the XL version of this case to fit my eATX motherboard. It's nice looking but you get a lot more fan noise out of it than I got out of my previous dampened case. :(


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## Hendrixon

Batwaffel said:


> I got the XL version of this case to fit my eATX motherboard. It's nice looking but you get a lot more fan noise out of it than I got out of my previous dampened case. :(


If your ultimate goal was silence, then you should have went with something else, like Be Quiet.
Not that the O11 are noisy, but their design goal (in my view) was to make an aquarium case that has high air flow properties and thus good thermals.
My main goals in choosing a case were thermals and having dual compartment design.

How did you configure the fans? which fans you use?
I set it up so that the bottom and top are intake, and the side is exhaust.
All fans are Arctic P12, which are known to be very quiet while still providing high performance at high air impedance.

The top intake (thru the AIO) I can run at full speed without much noise. the Arctic fans there are 1800rpm max. I run them at 70% when idle but quickly boost them to 100% when the pc has minimal workload.
The rest of the fans are of a higher tier (Bionix P12 @2100rpm).
Bottom intake is pretty noisy, not sure why, but from my tests I don't get any benefit running the fans there at more then 60%, so they scale from 40% at idle, to 60% at full load.
The side exhaust are run at 50% for idle and minimal workload, but for any medium work they ramp quickly to 76%. above that the noise is more apparent and the thermals don't improve.

A side note, many years of my life were spent in server farms so I'm kinda indifferent to computers fan noise  

Anyway, try to test your thermals and see how low you can set your fans speeds.


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## Batwaffel

I had actually looked at a bunch of the Be Quiet cases and none of them could properly fit my Aorus Extreme motherboard. I went through sending back like 4 different cases before I settled on the Lian and even then the board has a lot of overhang but it works.

Fans are all Noctua. 3 side and one exhaust seemed to provide the best airflow through the machine. They all spin slow but it's still more noise than I'd like for monitoring really quiet parts. Ideally, I'd have liked to get a rack system put in and have it all in a closet but it was a massive pain in the ass to do and not have to worry about latency, limited cable lengths, etc. Plus it also meant I would need a separate rack case for the storage which isn't really a good idea when you consider sample libraries and latency. Eventually I'll likely get a couple isolation boxes in here for the machines. Just a pain in the ass until then.


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## Hendrixon

So you do 3 side intake, AIO top exhaust and 1 back exhaust?
If that's the config, did you remove the filter from the top?
Btw, the pc is to your left or right? I assume to your left  

Yea if you need real silence then an iso box/booth is the best solution.
You can also try a divider wall with absorption material on it, to break the direct waves towards you, should knock a good few dB of noise.


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## ridgero

Sorry, I didn't read the whole thread.

5900x will be a good choice?

Thanks


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## Hendrixon

ridgero said:


> Sorry, I didn't read the whole thread.
> 
> 5900x will be a good choice?
> 
> Thanks


For what?


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## Batwaffel

Hendrixon said:


> So you do 3 side intake, AIO top exhaust and 1 back exhaust?
> If that's the config, did you remove the filter from the top?
> Btw, the pc is to your left or right? I assume to your left
> 
> Yea if you need real silence then an iso box/booth is the best solution.
> You can also try a divider wall with absorption material on it, to break the direct waves towards you, should knock a good few dB of noise.


I left the top filter on to keep dust out. Airflow is actually quite good with it and temps are equally really good under heavy load. Computer is away from furniture so no worried about location.

I'm still trying to figure if there is a better way to go rack mounted because I'd like all my computers in one location stored in a proper closet but with so many drives in use at once and the distance it would be away from my desk, I'm not sure how it would be possible to do.


----------

