# Sibelius or Staffpad?



## David Rieuwerts (Mar 4, 2022)

Hi Everyone, this is my first post on the forum. I would be grateful for some basic advice/opinions to begin with. Sadly I haven't written much music for a decade, back in 2012 I had a fairly new iMac and the East West Symphony Orchestra library to play back my compositions written in Sibelius. I now have a bit more time to get back into music so I had in mind to have my iMac overhauled, get everything set up again and go back to how things were. My memory was of typing into Sibelius and then getting the EWSO to playback, keyswitches and all which was messy and time consuming.
Then I learned how much music technology has advanced in the last few years! I am referring specifically here to to Staffpad. The thought of just being able to write onto a staff with a pen and have top class libraries playback the music seems like a dream come true, as does being able to input audio into the same app, something I have always longed for. So my questions are;

1. Do I really need the old set up anymore? There must still be advantages to having a desktop and a score writer like Sibelius but what are they?

2. Are the versions of say the Berlin Orchestra more superior for Sibelius than Staffpad? The compositions I have heard done in Staffpad sound awesome to me.

I am very excited about Staffpad but I ask these questions because the big outlay for me would be in purchasing an iPad Pro or Surface Pro.

Thanks very much for any advice or thoughts you may have.


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## MauroPantin (Mar 4, 2022)

To answer your questions in particular:

1- Not necessarily. The advantages are more control over the samples. Disadvantage is that you have to set up the entire thing and that takes a lot of time.

2- Don't own Berlin for Kontakt or SINE, but I do for Staffpad. Still, pretty sure the Kontakt and SINE versions are much superior in terms of dynamic layers and articulation options available. The size of the downloads is enough to know that there is much more detail in those versions. Is that detail necessary if you are just looking to write? That's up to you to decide. 

If you are just looking to compose, I'd go with Staffpad. If you need a finalized score after that you can always touch it up in MuseScore. Sibelius is engraving software. It has been used to compose, just like Finale, because it was one of the few apps available for put music on paper. I think that for composers Staffpad is a much more focused and comfortable option.

Having said that, if you plan to submit your music to libraries, get composing gigs, etc... Use it professionally, to sum it up, then access to the higher tier version of the samples is a must, IMO.


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## Jett Hitt (Mar 4, 2022)

I would be in a holding pattern right now. Musescore is supposed to drop a new version with a dedicated library next month. (Yeah, that might turn into August.) Supposedly, the new version will have the StaffPad playback engine onboard, and the best part of Musescore is that it is free.


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## ZenBYD (Mar 5, 2022)

staffpad is amazing, but its a different beast to sibelius (and dorico finale etc). if you need that precise control over the layout or you write complex music then your better off with sibelius or dorico etc. if you need to write and get the mockup, use audio etc.. then staffpad is the only game in town.

you need to be able to handwrite to use staffpad. if you can't do the handwriting it'll be useless to you.

so it comes with a big list of ifs. On the plus, it's simple to learn the writing. it is the only notation product to do audio, and the audio support is first rate. the playback is insane. the print auto-layout is actually very good. Once you get it, it's lightning fast...I can start a score and write a melody... play it back beautifully and have a great print out whilst Sibelius is still on the splash screen. the interaction with the reader app is brilliant. In many ways its a masterclass in app design.

be aware that they vary the price a lot these days... it often goes on sale for 50 bucks or something. imo its a must if you're into composition.

you do have to have an iPad and pencil. but that's different... I wouldn't consider that a part of the cost of staffpad. an iPad does a lot of things.


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## muratkayi (Mar 5, 2022)

ZenBYD said:


> you do have to have an iPad and pencil.


That is wrong
Windows plus any pen enabled input device works just fine


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## Martin S (Mar 5, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> I would be in a holding pattern right now. Musescore is supposed to drop a new version with a dedicated library next month. (Yeah, that might turn into August.) Supposedly, the new version will have the StaffPad playback engine onboard, and the best part of Musescore is that it is free.


Hi Jett, I quite like MuseScore, too. But the news of a dedicated library is, well.. news to me. Do you have a link you could share with that info?


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## David Rieuwerts (Mar 5, 2022)

MauroPantin said:


> To answer your questions in particular:
> 
> 1- Not necessarily. The advantages are more control over the samples. Disadvantage is that you have to set up the entire thing and that takes a lot of time.
> 
> ...


Mauro thanks so much for your reply it is much appreciated. Picking up on what you have said I'd like to ask;
1. What do you mean by 'More control over the samples?'

2. As for 'Dynamic layers and articulation options' I am guessing from the mock ups I have heard that Staffpad has all the most common articulations needed and the dynamics work well? 

3. I believe you are saying that Staffpad with Berlin (for example) is not of a good enough standard to go into libraries etc? Yes I do want to compose and write music more naturally, which for me is with a pen, but I would like to think I could still get somewhere with it professionally if the compositions are good enough.

Thanks again. Sorry if my questions are a bit naive!


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## David Rieuwerts (Mar 5, 2022)

ZenBYD said:


> staffpad is amazing, but its a different beast to sibelius (and dorico finale etc). if you need that precise control over the layout or you write complex music then your better off with sibelius or dorico etc. if you need to write and get the mockup, use audio etc.. then staffpad is the only game in town.
> 
> you need to be able to handwrite to use staffpad. if you can't do the handwriting it'll be useless to you.
> 
> ...


Thanks very much for taking the time to reply, it is much appreciated. Could I ask;

1.What do you mean by having more precise control over the layout? I guess you mean the actual look of the score? The scores I have seen in Staffpad look fine but I am interested to know more, thanks.

2. Just as a matter of interest have you tried inputting audio directly into staffpad such as a vocal? If so what is it like?


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## David Rieuwerts (Mar 5, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> I would be in a holding pattern right now. Musescore is supposed to drop a new version with a dedicated library next month. (Yeah, that might turn into August.) Supposedly, the new version will have the StaffPad playback engine onboard, and the best part of Musescore is that it is free.


Thanks very much for the advice.


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## muratkayi (Mar 5, 2022)

David Rieuwerts said:


> 2. Are the versions of say the Berlin Orchestra more superior for Sibelius than Staffpad? The compositions I have heard done in Staffpad sound awesome to me.


I would like to reply to your post based on this remark. I have started to use Staffpad a long time before the 3rd party sample packs made the audio playback so enjoyable. The stock sounds are samples, too, but very limited ones. Naturally, this is more annoying in the string sections than in the one-shot percussion sections, e.g. (the latter ones actually sound quite ok).

When the audio playback with 3rd party samples was introduced, I was floored by the playback quality and got various libraries (string sections first, as those benefit most from the upgrade to 3rd party libraries. I now have all the sections covered by 3rd party libraries). And the promise is kept. You get immediate playback that rivals that of what I can achieve with a lot (and I mean A LOT) of tweaking in, say, Reaper with Kontakt libraries. Nevermind how Staffpad does that, it has a lot to do with it not being able to react to live input.

You will hit walls, though.

Give yourself and the recognition engine roughly 3 weeks of intense work until Staffpad recognizes what you want to notate. Every composer has a different gripe of what is not there and absolutely should be. For some, it is that there is no way to truly write an atonal score, some miss cross notation in grand staffs and I'll be damned if I know which kind of tuplets are actually built into the recognition.
Also, the playback engine will let you down sooner or later. There will be passages which sound like ass. And then the tweaking begins, and when I say tweaking, in Staffpad this means messing up the score. You will find yourself adding staccatissimo where you envision detaché, you will mess with dynamics and hairpins, because samples vary in loudness and so on and so forth. This will naturally hinder readability. If it is not your goal to have people read and play your score all of this does not matter (and if it is and it matters, prepare for another step in the workflow to tidy everything up for performance).

But even worse is that for some things there is no fix. If you work in a DAW with Kontakt libraries then there is a whole bunch of workarounds to problems you might encounter and intricacies you can add. This is very limited in Staffpad.

What is the worst thing, though, is that Staffpad's engine is actually capable to easily wipe the floor with most of the playback capabilities I have heard coming from a MIDI/DAW workflow in a matter of minutes. Over in the Staffpad forums there has been an awesome thread where someone showed how to go mod Staffpad to not only make the most common problems disappear, but also propel the playback engine into hitherto unknown heights. And that whole endeavour has been shut down by Staffpad. With no signs of any interest as to how to incorporate the obvious improvements that community effort showed.
That has been disturbing, to say the least.

For Staffpad you will never be more than a consumer. Also, the application itself will only ever follow what the owner of the company intends for it to do, basically shunning any useful input by the user community - which for Staffpad as I mentioned before is just a bunch of consumers.

If you are ok with all of this, Staffpad might feel like something magical out of Hogwarts...magical notation paper, you know. If you want it to go deeper, prepare for disappointment


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## Jett Hitt (Mar 5, 2022)

Martin S said:


> Hi Jett, I quite like MuseScore, too. But the news of a dedicated library is, well.. news to me. Do you have a link you could share with that info?


I am making this assumption based on this page on the Musescore forum.









Update on Playback and Installation for MuseScore 4


Hi everyone, In previous posts, I’ve briefly described the playback library Muse has been developing, which we intend to offer as a free external plugin for…




musescore.org





Edit: I don’t know where I read about the April release date, and that may have changed.


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## Martin S (Mar 5, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> I am making this assumption based on this page on the Musescore forum.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot, Jett. Much appreciated


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## MauroPantin (Mar 5, 2022)

David Rieuwerts said:


> Mauro thanks so much for your reply it is much appreciated. Picking up on what you have said I'd like to ask;
> 1. What do you mean by 'More control over the samples?'
> 
> 2. As for 'Dynamic layers and articulation options' I am guessing from the mock ups I have heard that Staffpad has all the most common articulations needed and the dynamics work well?
> ...



No worries, I don't mind elaborating. By "More control over the samples" I mean a more nuanced control of what they sound like. You need that extra control for pro results, IMO.

The full Berlin Strings that you purchase with Kontakt or SINE is advertised as a bit over 100GBs of compressed samples (200+ uncompressed). The download for the ""same"" library for StaffPad takes up 2 gigs on my drive. So you see, the amount of material included is much more vast with the full library. I can't really speak for the exact differences because I don't own the full Berlin, but a 50 order of magnitude difference in size is enough to know that 98% of the original library is not there. I'm sure they cut down in dynamic layers and the more obscure artics.

This is not to say that the samples don't sound great. They do. In fact, it's a miracle they sound as great as they do with such little footprint. And they have the most common articulations needed, absolutely. It's just that sometimes for specific passages you will find they don't play ball as well as you'd like. An example: Maybe the staccatos are too long and the spiccatos are too short for what you hear in your head. In a situation like that you would adjust the release time in Kontakt when dealing with the full library until you get exactly what you need. This is not possible with StaffPad.

This is not just Berlin. I have every StaffPad library. They complement each other well and you can layer them sometimes to avoid going to a DAW for full control. But you'll find limitations for each of them, eventually.

As per the last question, having submitted to libraries I would say that, as great as it is, the Staffpad playback is not enough to be competitive. Libraries care about production and sound quality. It's a bit sad but composition skills are probably at the bottom of the skills needed. Production has to be top notch. If you want to get into the library music game you need the best samples you can possibly afford and as much control as you can get. If that's too expensive then maybe something like composer cloud works, it's how I started. Staffpad is great for composition and a quick and great mockup, but I'm not confident the playback engine can render a production ready track, at least not for now.


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## David Rieuwerts (Mar 7, 2022)

ZenBYD said:


> staffpad is amazing, but its a different beast to sibelius (and dorico finale etc). if you need that precise control over the layout or you write complex music then your better off with sibelius or dorico etc. if you need to write and get the mockup, use audio etc.. then staffpad is the only game in town.
> 
> you need to be able to handwrite to use staffpad. if you can't do the handwriting it'll be useless to you.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for that reply, it is really helpful. I am getting a fuller picture of my options now. You speak highly of Staffpad which is encouraging. I have been away from all of this for some time and things have moved on, so it is a bit of a minefield for me. I still have Sibelius which I used in conjunction with the East West Symphony Orchestra library but getting the two to work together took a very long time to accomplish. On top of that were all the keyswitches and hidden messages needed in the score to make the changes of instruments and articulations possible. The thought of writing notes onto a staff and getting great playback is like a dream.
Do you use Sibelius or Dorico at all or is your set up Staffpad and a DAW?
Thanks again for your help!


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## David Rieuwerts (Mar 7, 2022)

MauroPantin said:


> No worries, I don't mind elaborating. By "More control over the samples" I mean a more nuanced control of what they sound like. You need that extra control for pro results, IMO.
> 
> The full Berlin Strings that you purchase with Kontakt or SINE is advertised as a bit over 100GBs of compressed samples (200+ uncompressed). The download for the ""same"" library for StaffPad takes up 2 gigs on my drive. So you see, the amount of material included is much more vast with the full library. I can't really speak for the exact differences because I don't own the full Berlin, but a 50 order of magnitude difference in size is enough to know that 98% of the original library is not there. I'm sure they cut down in dynamic layers and the more obscure artics.
> 
> ...


Thanks again Mauro, I am getting a much clearer picture now. Just as a matter of interest what is your set up? I presume you use Staffpad for composing and a DAW for the submissions you mentioned, the more professional work? Do you use a notation programme at all other than Staffpad? I am thinking here either Sibelius or Dorico?


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## David Rieuwerts (Mar 7, 2022)

muratkayi said:


> I would like to reply to your post based on this remark. I have started to use Staffpad a long time before the 3rd party sample packs made the audio playback so enjoyable. The stock sounds are samples, too, but very limited ones. Naturally, this is more annoying in the string sections than in the one-shot percussion sections, e.g. (the latter ones actually sound quite ok).
> 
> When the audio playback with 3rd party samples was introduced, I was floored by the playback quality and got various libraries (string sections first, as those benefit most from the upgrade to 3rd party libraries. I now have all the sections covered by 3rd party libraries). And the promise is kept. You get immediate playback that rivals that of what I can achieve with a lot (and I mean A LOT) of tweaking in, say, Reaper with Kontakt libraries. Nevermind how Staffpad does that, it has a lot to do with it not being able to react to live input.
> 
> ...


Wow thanks for that in depth feedback I appreciate this and all the replies I have had to my initial question. I can see the pitfalls with Staffpad although they seem small in comparison to where I was 10 years ago with Sibelius hooked up to East West SO via a third party piece of software, inputting keyswitches and hidden messages into the score and so on. I suppose nothing is perfection and I remember when I was learning music you couldn't get to hear any of your music at all unless you had access to an orchestra or ensemble. I take all your points very seriously though and it is real food for thought. If I already had an iPad or Surface Pro I wouldn't hesitate to buy Staffpad, it is forking out for the hardware which is a massive spend for me. Just as a matter of interest what is your set up? Do you use Staffpad and if so what for? I presume you have a DAW?
Thanks again for your time.


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## MauroPantin (Mar 7, 2022)

David Rieuwerts said:


> Thanks again Mauro, I am getting a much clearer picture now. Just as a matter of interest what is your set up? I presume you use Staffpad for composing and a DAW for the submissions you mentioned, the more professional work? Do you use a notation programme at all other than Staffpad? I am thinking here either Sibelius or Dorico?


Your are pretty much dead on. I have StaffPad and I have purchased all the expansions over time. Each one brings something different to the table. I write and orchestrate 70% of my music there.

Occasionally, the other 30% of the time or so, I will start a piece directly in my DAW. It depends on the genre. I use Reaper as a DAW with a few libraries (not that many, really) and I tend to go there to do the production side of things. 

I am an engraver, it's my main thing, so I own both Sib and Dorico (and Finale). But mainly these days unless a client asks for a specific project file I just go for Dorico. It's much faster for working in music preparation than the other two.


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## dcoscina (Mar 7, 2022)

I have the full fledged Berlin libraries in SINE and I still cannot get the same level of note transitions in the legato strings like I can in StaffPad. Yeah, the dynamic range might be less but for really lyrical lines, I have not heard better...


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## muratkayi (Mar 8, 2022)

David Rieuwerts said:


> Just as a matter of interest what is your set up? Do you use Staffpad and if so what for? I presume you have a DAW?


I use Reaper as a DAW and I used a comprehensive string library once to overcome a sound bug in the Staffpad samples once, for example. There was a click in Spitfire strings and I had a similar Spitfire string library. I exported the audio of all the sections and the midi for the said strings from Staffpad and had the midi play the other string library that had no unwanted click sound.

Let me also point out that you do not need a tablet PC! I work with a graphic tablet display which is both much cheaper and more tactile, has better pressure resolution and is quite big compared to a surface. In my case it's a xp-pen pro. I think even a non display graphic tablet would work and might be a cheap easy way to take Staffpad for a test drive

I use Staffpad to compose and also produce final tracks. This always ends in exporting sections for further handling in a DAW. I have fully fledged libraries for all orchestral sections in Kontakt which is a totally different path to composition and tracking. I use both ways depending on my mood, genre, desired end result. Since Staffpad has audio tracks by now this workflow can go to and fro now.

One aspect that makes Staffpad also fascinating _apart_ from "does this only sound like a good interval in my head or for real?" (Hey, as far as I can tell, many famous composers used a piano when composing, so there seems to be a benefit to actually hear your lines, even for the gods...hehehe)...so...apart from that: you can also test how doubling lines between sections sounds just by writing it down. It's hundreds of times faster for me than loading up hundreds of gigs of samples, minding all the fifty keyswitches while playing stuff in (playing can be much much slower than writing)


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## ZenBYD (Mar 8, 2022)

David Rieuwerts said:


> Thanks so much for that reply, it is really helpful. I am getting a fuller picture of my options now. You speak highly of Staffpad which is encouraging. I have been away from all of this for some time and things have moved on, so it is a bit of a minefield for me. I still have Sibelius which I used in conjunction with the East West Symphony Orchestra library but getting the two to work together took a very long time to accomplish. On top of that were all the keyswitches and hidden messages needed in the score to make the changes of instruments and articulations possible. The thought of writing notes onto a staff and getting great playback is like a dream.
> Do you use Sibelius or Dorico at all or is your set up Staffpad and a DAW?
> Thanks again for your help!


currently staffpad and daw... choice of daw changes depending on the client and needs. I wouldn't try and do mockups in any other scoring software. its too complex and fragile.

I still use sib when I need to or if someone sends me sib files etc.

I like the stem exports from staffpad... if composers I work with send me their staffpad I can tweak in the score then airdrop stems to my Mac/daw and it all works great... it even exports a click...

anyway Dorico doesn't really add anything to the mix for me. The engraving quality in sib is just fine for my needs.

basically... the advice is just use which tool is the right tool for the job. you don't have to just use one!


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## David Rieuwerts (Mar 9, 2022)

dcoscina said:


> I have the full fledged Berlin libraries in SINE and I still cannot get the same level of note transitions in the legato strings like I can in StaffPad. Yeah, the dynamic range might be less but for really lyrical lines, I have not heard better...


Thanks very much, that is really interesting feedback. Do you use an iPad or Surface?


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## David Rieuwerts (Mar 9, 2022)

muratkayi said:


> I use Reaper as a DAW and I used a comprehensive string library once to overcome a sound bug in the Staffpad samples once, for example. There was a click in Spitfire strings and I had a similar Spitfire string library. I exported the audio of all the sections and the midi for the said strings from Staffpad and had the midi play the other string library that had no unwanted click sound.
> 
> Let me also point out that you do not need a tablet PC! I work with a graphic tablet display which is both much cheaper and more tactile, has better pressure resolution and is quite big compared to a surface. In my case it's a xp-pen pro. I think even a non display graphic tablet would work and might be a cheap easy way to take Staffpad for a test drive
> 
> ...


Thanks again, and for the information about the XP-Pen Pro. I understand now that you and others are composing in Staffpad but then exporting the parts into a DAW for some sort of production work. I don't fully understand this and it will be a big learning curve for me, I wouldn't know how to export into a DAW or what to do with the music once it is there. This is something I would need to learn. Also if I get Staffpad and use a DAW I'm not sure where programmes like Sibelius, which I own, and Dorico come in, would that purely be for printing scores?


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## David Rieuwerts (Mar 9, 2022)

ZenBYD said:


> currently staffpad and daw... choice of daw changes depending on the client and needs. I wouldn't try and do mockups in any other scoring software. its too complex and fragile.
> 
> I still use sib when I need to or if someone sends me sib files etc.
> 
> ...


Yes I understand a little more now but the production side is something I know little about. I have an old version of Logic but obviously not owning Staffpad at present I don't know how to upload the scores into a DAW and not sure how I could improve the sound except for things like reverb and compression and stuff like that. You speak highly of Staffpad though which is very encouraging.
Picking up on something you said which I found interesting, that your 'choice of DAW changes depending on client needs'. Could you explain that as I thought DAW's were pretty much the same? Thanks!


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## muratkayi (Mar 10, 2022)

David Rieuwerts said:


> This is something I would need to learn. Also if I get Staffpad and use a DAW I'm not sure where programmes like Sibelius, which I own, and Dorico come in, would that purely be for printing scores?


Hi,

I am not too sure about the aim you follow with Staffpad, but as you don't know too much about what to do in a DAW my guess is you mainly want to compose and listen to what you composed.
So, just to be clear on that: if that is all you ever wanna do, Staffpad is awesome. The workflow with exporting to DAW is for those of us who need to get something together which we can send off to someone else for consideration, or which can serve as a finished product even.

And you can use Staffpad scores to give parts to other musicians. In fact, check out the Staffpad reader app to have your mind blown. (Not that the musicians I ever worked with would ever consider reading from an app, conservative immovable bunch the lot of them, lol). But for a print ready version that you could use with a publisher or publish yourself you are better off with software whose main purpose is to do exactly that.

Dorico/Sibelius: engraving
Staffpad: composing
DAW: production


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## ulrichburke2 (Mar 10, 2022)

Or you could use my DAW, Quick Score Elite Level 2. Best notation package ever - and it does mixing well, too! I use it for absolutely everything cos it's so easy to use and understand. (Sion Software!)

Dorico's the closest alternative - but the price!!! Five Hundred - less than 1 hundred for QSE. 

I think Dorico's good but wa-HAAAY overpriced. 

Yours respectfully

Chris.


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## ZenBYD (Mar 10, 2022)

David Rieuwerts said:


> Yes I understand a little more now but the production side is something I know little about. I have an old version of Logic but obviously not owning Staffpad at present I don't know how to upload the scores into a DAW and not sure how I could improve the sound except for things like reverb and compression and stuff like that. You speak highly of Staffpad though which is very encouraging.
> Picking up on something you said which I found interesting, that your 'choice of DAW changes depending on client needs'. Could you explain that as I thought DAW's were pretty much the same? Thanks!


yeah... on a high level, the DAWs all do the same things - sure... but people have their preferences... I just use whichever one is "right" for the job. This might mean the studio has Tools... and we're recording a lot of multi-track audio. Tools is right for that. Heavy midi sequencing? cubase is good for that. Pop production? Logic probably... but it all depends on people's preference. Rather than say I'm a pro tools shop or whatever, I just learned all of them so can use it depending on the preferences of others.

anyway - that's a bit off topic. if you're not into production, but want mockups and audio and decent enough printed scores (or digital ones!) then Staffpad is by far the best game in town regardless of price or platform.

don't think of the iPad as part of the cost. the new iPad Air looks good if you want a lower cost intro.


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## David Rieuwerts (Mar 10, 2022)

muratkayi said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am not too sure about the aim you follow with Staffpad, but as you don't know too much about what to do in a DAW my guess is you mainly want to compose and listen to what you composed.
> So, just to be clear on that: if that is all you ever wanna do, Staffpad is awesome. The workflow with exporting to DAW is for those of us who need to get something together which we can send off to someone else for consideration, or which can serve as a finished product even.
> ...


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## David Rieuwerts (Mar 10, 2022)

Yes that is a fantastic summing up of all three approaches, thanks so much. I am really understanding the situation now and I am grateful for all the responses people have provided. When I read your first post in this thread, particularly the second half of it, I must admit I was having second thoughts about Staffpad but I see that you actually speak very positively about it. 
I have now made my decision and it will be Staffpad. I do wish to hear what I have composed and for other people like family and friends to hear it. However, I would like to write music for consideration on a more professional basis so I understand for this I will most likely need a DAW. I have worked with them before for songwriting so I know about adding the various effects, editing individual notes and so on. I also believe that on transferring a piece to a DAW all the dynamic markings are lost so you have to deal with all of that manually?
Thanks again for your experience and advice, it has really helped me understand my options!


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## muratkayi (Mar 10, 2022)

David Rieuwerts said:


> I also believe that on transferring a piece to a DAW all the dynamic markings are lost so you have to deal with all of that manually?


It depends.
First of all, Staffpad recently got many new options to influence and enhance the actual sound of the playback through FX. These do not offer the versatility of a DAW environment, but you can get much closer to a produced feel of the final output.

Then, if you export the sections of your instrumentation as audio, dynamics are baked into the audio files which you can load up in any DAW and just hit play to get the same playback that you heard in Staffpad.

Only if you export MIDI files which are meant to control other virtual instruments you use in your DAW will you have to re-map certain sets of info to accurately control dynamics in the virtual instrument. Hope this makes sense.


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## David Rieuwerts (Mar 10, 2022)

muratkayi said:


> It depends.
> First of all, Staffpad recently got many new options to influence and enhance the actual sound of the playback through FX. These do not offer the versatility of a DAW environment, but you can get much closer to a produced feel of the final output.
> 
> Then, if you export the sections of your instrumentation as audio, dynamics are baked into the audio files which you can load up in any DAW and just hit play to get the same playback that you heard in Staffpad.
> ...


Great that is even better. Yes I do remember now about MIDI files being tranferred to a DAW. As for the FX, I watched a video of these being added to a piece recently and the result was awesome, I just couldn't believe the quality.


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## muratkayi (Mar 10, 2022)

Well, then have fun with Staffpad
In case you need to limit your purchases of 3rd party libraries, my advice would be to start with the string sections as it will drastically improve the overall impression of the playback, more so than if you start with other sections in my opinion


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## David Rieuwerts (Mar 10, 2022)

muratkayi said:


> Well, then have fun with Staffpad
> In case you need to limit your purchases of 3rd party libraries, my advice would be to start with the string sections as it will drastically improve the overall impression of the playback, more so than if you start with other sections in my opinion


Thanks very much, I am really looking forward to it. Hope I don't encounter problems with handwriting recognition and can just get on with it. Absolutely agree that strings would be the first library to purchase although the price of each is excellent considering what they do.


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## Pappaus (Mar 10, 2022)

I am a complete hobbyist who just went to Staffpad as my primary tool. Everyone else has hit excelent points so I won’t add on there. I will say the writing will get better with practice and I have a dedicated piece for just practicing the handwriting. One great thing about StaffPad for me is just being in bed with my ipad while everyone else is asleep and just writing. (using headphones of course)

At the very least it is worth it for the portability. Just to reiterate, don’t give up because the handwriting is difficult at first. Depending on your personal handwriting, you may have no problems at all.


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## Composer 2021 (Mar 10, 2022)

I’d say don’t get Sibelius for any reason. It’s bad to have a forced subscription every year for software. Its competitors are one-and-done, and then you don’t have to upgrade unless it’s for technical reasons.


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## David Rieuwerts (Mar 12, 2022)

dcoscina said:


> I have the full fledged Berlin libraries in SINE and I still cannot get the same level of note transitions in the legato strings like I can in StaffPad. Yeah, the dynamic range might be less but for really lyrical lines, I have not heard better...


Thanks for taking the time to post your experience with Staffpad. It is really helpful to me and very encouraging. I have been unable to find a full list of instruments and articulations available for the Staffpad edition of the Berlin Orchestra. I take it you are happy with what is included? For instance are muted instruments supplied or does the Con Sordino instruction just magically work? Thanks again for your post!


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## David Rieuwerts (Mar 12, 2022)

Pappaus said:


> I am a complete hobbyist who just went to Staffpad as my primary tool. Everyone else has hit excelent points so I won’t add on there. I will say the writing will get better with practice and I have a dedicated piece for just practicing the handwriting. One great thing about StaffPad for me is just being in bed with my ipad while everyone else is asleep and just writing. (using headphones of course)
> 
> At the very least it is worth it for the portability. Just to reiterate, don’t give up because the handwriting is difficult at first. Depending on your personal handwriting, you may have no problems at all.


Thanks very much for your advice and encouragement. Staffpad seems like the sort of thing I used to dream about, just writing music without all the messing about and the addition of audio is the icing on the cake. I now have to look for a suitable iPad. Which type do you have?


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## David Rieuwerts (Mar 12, 2022)

Composer 2021 said:


> I’d say don’t get Sibelius for any reason. It’s bad to have a forced subscription every year for software. Its competitors are one-and-done, and then you don’t have to upgrade unless it’s for technical reasons.


Thanks. I do have Sibelius 6 which I suppose is ancient by now but at one time it was the only way a composer could write a traditional score and hear the work played back (in a fashion and with a lot of tweaking). As I said before I have been away from music making for 10 years or so and was prepared to go back to my old set up, until I discovered how much technology has advanced during that time.


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## muratkayi (Mar 12, 2022)

David Rieuwerts said:


> I have been unable to find a full list of instruments and articulations available for the Staffpad edition of the Berlin Orchestra.


So, you are starting to stumble over the points which have been disturbing Staffpad users for months or even years. There is no reference for articulations. You can find an Excel list in the Staffpad forum here on vi


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## David Rieuwerts (Mar 13, 2022)

ulrichburke2 said:


> Or you could use my DAW, Quick Score Elite Level 2. Best notation package ever - and it does mixing well, too! I use it for absolutely everything cos it's so easy to use and understand. (Sion Software!)
> 
> Dorico's the closest alternative - but the price!!! Five Hundred - less than 1 hundred for QSE.
> 
> ...


Thanks Chris I completely missed your message. Thanks for posting. I have not heard of Quick Score Elite Level 2 but it sounds interesting and I shall look into it.


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## PaulieDC (Mar 13, 2022)

When I saw how StaffPad worked in the video on the webpage I went bonkers because it was like a dream come true. I had wanted an M1 iPad upgrade anyway so I went for it a few months back. I’m normally not a notation guy but I wanted to get more into this. What I discovered is that you really have to spend time with the input for StaffPad to learn it’s “way’ but when do you do and you‘ve eventually mastered it, I imagine it’s a lot easier. I also noticed that when I wanted to do some thing like copy a section whatever it just wasn’t intuitive enough… I kept flipping the top menu wondering where I’m supposed to go but again, that’s something you eventually learn, and then you’re fine. Then something weird happened: I started in orchestration class at Berklee in January and the first few assignments you needed to get simple one line melodies (that they give you) into notation or a DAW, and then we do the added instruments and output both MP3 and PDF. So I was trying to bring up StaffPad and quickly get this melody line into notation to then build on it, and I realized I’m behind because I need to learn AND PRACTICE the whole StaffPad user interface. So since I use Cubase and I did buy Dorico to “have Dorico“ but never used it, I watch the one hour Dorico tutorial (and printed out the shortcut sheet), and I can’t believe how fast I was able to get up and running. Alan Silvestri was talking lovingly about Dorico in a couple videos which is what even made me think the even try Dorico for this project, that I had to get done that week. I ended up picking it up so quickly that I use Dorico every week now. In fact if we have to re-create a piece with just samples in a DAW, I actually go to Dorico first and quickly input the notes and ties and slurs, and then export out the MIDI file to Cubase. I’m loving this workflow, something I never even thought could be, I’ve played by theory/ear for 50 years. I don’t even care about Cubase integration with Dorico because the MIDI file works fine (as I get more into this I’m sure my tune will change on that one, no pun intended). I come across videos all the time of people jumping to Dorico from finale or Sibelius and it must be because of how easy it is to put together notation. So what I would suggest is don’t rule that out, because you can get a free version of Dorico, and then eventually you can invest in everything to get StaffPad. Now that I understand notation way better, I’m looking SO forward to sitting on the couch with the StaffPad and the Apple Pencil and the iPad to be able to sketch out ideas, but I’m going to have to invest the time to get really comfortable with the user interface. Here’s the other thing … I spent 69 bucks to get Berlin strings on sale for StaffPad on the iPad. And then I realized, what did I do that for? I have the whole Berlin library on my tower, I can export whatever I sketch from StaffPad to Cubase and have everything. So unless you plan on producing the final piece from notation only, I don’t really see a reason for buying the libraries in StaffPad offers. I know eventually that Dorico/StaffPad will be my notation workflow, because once I ‘get it’ with StaffPad, you just can’t beat being able to write on a digital sheet of paper and have it all assemble before your eyes, _how cool is that!_ Ha, I could even start something as a base in Dorico and then shoot it over to StaffPad, finish it up while sitting in my yacht in the Mediterranean on a beautiful October morning, and then after I compose Beethoven’s 10th Symphony I can shoot it over to my DAW and get it ready for the London Symphony Orchestra. (Of course I’m kidding, I couldn’t even afford the brochure for a yacht)
As a free option right now see what you think about the Dorico workflow
( https://www.steinberg.net/dorico/se/ ) IF you also work in a DAW.

Having blabbed all THAT, There are plenty of members in this forum that use staff pad as their main tool, absolutely, and I envy that. So I think it took way too long in my reply to get to this point: it’s all up to the commitment you want to make. If you really really liking the idea of StaffPad then go in 100% and get what you need hardware wise to make it happen. Before you buy any libraries to add on, consider if you will be ultimately ending up in your DAW with your existing sample libraries, or if output will be out of StaffPad. I have a friend who plays piano, flute and timpani and has always used paper and pencil and now she uses StaffPad and she goes bonkers. She loves it and creates pieces all the time and she has no idea what a DAW is. That’s not her realm, although I think she’ll eventually discover it. She creates pieces all the time with the stock sounds and they sound great. There are several ways to go but that’s a decision you can make AFTER you get StaffPad up and running. As far as windows tablet versus iPad, I haven’t use the Windows tablet version so I can’t comment on how well it works, but I can tell you this: I went from the 2018 iPad Pro to the new 2021 with the M1 chip and the difference is extremely huge. You really want to consider an iPad with the M1 if you’re going to do this. I did try StaffPad on the older iPad just to see before I got rid of it, and it was fine but I had some lag on that older iPad that just doesn’t happen on the M1 iPad. Oh, I got the 512 GB version which is enough storage for me, and know that the 256 and the 512 have 8 GB of RAM. The one terabyte and 2 TB iPads have 16 GB of RAM but I monitor my ram usage and I have never come close to maxing out with the 8 GB. My personal suggestion is that the 512 is the best balance between new great super fast iPad and not killing your bank account. The one terabyte and 2 TB iPads really are for people who do full video creation. I’ve had NO problem with the 512 GB model having 8 gigs of RAM.

I did see that you have a lot of answers. I’m afraid I just stuffed two or three more bags into the overhead compartment! But knowledge is good when you’re trying to know where to go so PLEASE understand that this is just my take on it, and what other people have to say is absolutely as important if not _moreso_. Hope you arrive at your decision before going bonkers, lol!


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## muratkayi (Mar 14, 2022)

The problem I see with exporting to DAW and using full libraries is that OP doesn't seem to own a DAW let alone full multi sampled libraries of anything and also apparently does not know how to use them.
If that is the case then Staffpad is not only much easier to use, but also when fully upgraded to several orchestral sections costs only a fraction of a normal full string library by let's say Spitfire Audio


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## David Rieuwerts (Mar 15, 2022)

PaulieDC said:


> When I saw how StaffPad worked in the video on the webpage I went bonkers because it was like a dream come true. I had wanted an M1 iPad upgrade anyway so I went for it a few months back. I’m normally not a notation guy but I wanted to get more into this. What I discovered is that you really have to spend time with the input for StaffPad to learn it’s “way’ but when do you do and you‘ve eventually mastered it, I imagine it’s a lot easier. I also noticed that when I wanted to do some thing like copy a section whatever it just wasn’t intuitive enough… I kept flipping the top menu wondering where I’m supposed to go but again, that’s something you eventually learn, and then you’re fine. Then something weird happened: I started in orchestration class at Berklee in January and the first few assignments you needed to get simple one line melodies (that they give you) into notation or a DAW, and then we do the added instruments and output both MP3 and PDF. So I was trying to bring up StaffPad and quickly get this melody line into notation to then build on it, and I realized I’m behind because I need to learn AND PRACTICE the whole StaffPad user interface. So since I use Cubase and I did buy Dorico to “have Dorico“ but never used it, I watch the one hour Dorico tutorial (and printed out the shortcut sheet), and I can’t believe how fast I was able to get up and running. Alan Silvestri was talking lovingly about Dorico in a couple videos which is what even made me think the even try Dorico for this project, that I had to get done that week. I ended up picking it up so quickly that I use Dorico every week now. In fact if we have to re-create a piece with just samples in a DAW, I actually go to Dorico first and quickly input the notes and ties and slurs, and then export out the MIDI file to Cubase. I’m loving this workflow, something I never even thought could be, I’ve played by theory/ear for 50 years. I don’t even care about Cubase integration with Dorico because the MIDI file works fine (as I get more into this I’m sure my tune will change on that one, no pun intended). I come across videos all the time of people jumping to Dorico from finale or Sibelius and it must be because of how easy it is to put together notation. So what I would suggest is don’t rule that out, because you can get a free version of Dorico, and then eventually you can invest in everything to get StaffPad. Now that I understand notation way better, I’m looking SO forward to sitting on the couch with the StaffPad and the Apple Pencil and the iPad to be able to sketch out ideas, but I’m going to have to invest the time to get really comfortable with the user interface. Here’s the other thing … I spent 69 bucks to get Berlin strings on sale for StaffPad on the iPad. And then I realized, what did I do that for? I have the whole Berlin library on my tower, I can export whatever I sketch from StaffPad to Cubase and have everything. So unless you plan on producing the final piece from notation only, I don’t really see a reason for buying the libraries in StaffPad offers. I know eventually that Dorico/StaffPad will be my notation workflow, because once I ‘get it’ with StaffPad, you just can’t beat being able to write on a digital sheet of paper and have it all assemble before your eyes, _how cool is that!_ Ha, I could even start something as a base in Dorico and then shoot it over to StaffPad, finish it up while sitting in my yacht in the Mediterranean on a beautiful October morning, and then after I compose Beethoven’s 10th Symphony I can shoot it over to my DAW and get it ready for the London Symphony Orchestra. (Of course I’m kidding, I couldn’t even afford the brochure for a yacht)
> As a free option right now see what you think about the Dorico workflow
> ( https://www.steinberg.net/dorico/se/ ) IF you also work in a DAW.
> 
> ...


Wow thanks for such a detailed response! It has given me a lot to think about and I will have to read through it a few more times to digest it properly. I was interested in what you wrote about the amount of GB needed especially for larger works because this is what I am considering now before purchasing an iPad. I have been surprised during my searches to find up to 512 GB comes only with 8 GB of RAM, I can only presume that's enough to handle the libraries? My iMac had 24 GB! I actually put the extra RAM in myself so it could handle the massive EWQL orchestra samples with loads of instruments playing all at once. Thanks again for all your help.


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## PaulieDC (Mar 16, 2022)

David Rieuwerts said:


> Wow thanks for such a detailed response! It has given me a lot to think about and I will have to read through it a few more times to digest it properly. I was interested in what you wrote about the amount of GB needed especially for larger works because this is what I am considering now before purchasing an iPad. I have been surprised during my searches to find up to 512 GB comes only with 8 GB of RAM, I can only presume that's enough to handle the libraries? My iMac had 24 GB! I actually put the extra RAM in myself so it could handle the massive EWQL orchestra samples with loads of instruments playing all at once. Thanks again for all your help.


8GB is a lot for iOS (coming from the guy who has 128GB in his PC), and 16GB is big, like having 32GB in a MacBook. Most older iPads have been 4GB which won't work for StaffPad too well. 8GB works fine. 16GB is stellar AFTER Apple opens the 5GB limit on app RAM usage (seriously). That may have happened, I'm not sure, but if it hasn't, StaffPad would only be allowed 5GB I think it is, so the 8GB iPad is sufficient. The higher priced iPads are equal to MacBooks in price, but MacBooks don't have a touchscreen, let alone Apple Pencil support.

I love Apple, bought my first Mac in 1990, but it's truly bazaar how stingy they are with RAM and storage and upgrading, and if you DO want that, you need a bank loan!


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