# The media and ISIS



## NYC Composer (Aug 25, 2014)

I've seen a certain amount of skepticism here regarding the Western media and how it portrays what's going on in the world. In that context, does anyone believe the western media is ginning up support for a renewed western offensive and a return of ground troop to Iraq? Does anyone doubt the threat that ISIS poses?


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## AlexandreSafi (Aug 25, 2014)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HK5ZAapfylQ


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## d.healey (Aug 25, 2014)

AlexandreSafi @ Mon Aug 25 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HK5ZAapfylQ



I saw David Icke in the video title and immediately closed the window. Any man who believes all world leaders are 7ft reptilians in 6ft human suits has nothing to say that is of interest to me.

I think if the West wants to go to war they have no need to build up support for it, they have a choice of targets right now - Ukraine/Russia, Syria, Iraq, Gaza/Isreal etc. etc. I actually think the West is keen to avoid more fighting (first time for everything!) but unfortunately it looks like this time it might actually be wise to go to war to defeat IS.

Regardless of how the Western media is portraying things all the world media seems to be agreed that IS is bad, people are suffering, and IS is a growing threat to many more places.


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## AC986 (Aug 25, 2014)

TotalComposure @ Mon Aug 25 said:


> Any man who believes all world leaders are 7ft reptilians in 6ft human suits has nothing to say that is of interest to me.



You've obviously never been to Redcar!



:oops: Oh Sorry. I see you have.


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## chimuelo (Aug 25, 2014)

Sure looks like the real rulers of our nation will get their way as usual.
We all were angry at Bush, but seem to have forgotten who got the American citizens to support a 2nd invasion.
It was the NY Times, that all caring truth seeking media outlet who takes cash from Mexican Billionaires to stay afloat, and Lord knows who else is a stock holder using corporate shell names, etc.

Get angry at who manipulates the media and buys wealthy politicians, then you'll have the proper place to place your anger.

From what I have read about these guys over the last 3 years is our allies, and most likely with our support, have funded these religious freak bags, and I was thinking this was a great way to get Iran to commit more than just supplies and a few thousand Rep. Guards into Syria. Tie them down with ISIS but it appears that the well funded "freedom fighters" lost touch with their funders once they hit that bank with 400+ million and took over the infrastructure in N.Iraq.

The wealthiest nation on Earth should not allow more of their treasury and sons and daughters blood to be shed for these Gulf State pussies ever again.
This ISIS problem is theirs, and they could always hire the New Blackwater and wipe them out, but they better hurry before they learn to use that 700 million in cash they have right now.

Don't listen to the media parrots. The Prez knows way more than they do, or than we do about what these whackos are capable of.
If he caves into following orders from his donors, it will be the end of wealthy Liberals, and wealth distribution. Can't say I would miss them really. They have lined their own pockets as usual. Folks in Ferguson didn't seem to get any of the cash from Harry, Nancy and Obama. Their schools are crumbling, kids are forced to steal, maybe a few more trillion might work.


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## G.R. Baumann (Aug 25, 2014)

Where does IS have it's weapons and funding from would be my simple question.


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## gbar (Aug 25, 2014)

chimuelo @ Mon Aug 25 said:


> Don't listen to the media parrots. .




But listen to some guy on a message board who is not involved in foreign policy issues in any way, shape or form and who doesn't even know the New York Times has been owned and controlled by the Ochs-Sulzberger family since 1896 ?

lol

OK, lizzard men, and now this. Composers are a colorful lot.


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## José Herring (Aug 25, 2014)

Even if 1/10th of what the media is saying about ISIS is true, then they need to be put down like rabid dogs.

Unfortunately the rest of the world is in such a mess that we're the only ones that can do it.

The world has no place for a Caliphate.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 25, 2014)

Particularly a Cali[hate that by its own words, not filtered through Western "media" (as if they are a monolith, which they are not) has no intention of merely being content with that.


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## chimuelo (Aug 25, 2014)

gbar @ Mon Aug 25 said:


> chimuelo @ Mon Aug 25 said:
> 
> 
> > Don't listen to the media parrots. .
> ...



The Times does what it's told, if that is an area of tension you have my sympathy. 
I can give you many examples of the way they gravel for cash and then in return obey those "investors." 

WMDs,.. Mexican Cartel Wars, etc. etc. 

It's easy to follow the money, but gosh to get folks to actually research, rather than breast feed, is a separate matter entirely.


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 25, 2014)

FWIW I was 100% against the Iraq war, but think this is entirely different. Helps that the enemy here isn't a nation, accused of invented crimes. It's more analogous to the ongoing fight with Al Qaida really. The obvious problem is of how and where to do it in such murky areas of the world - siding with Assad isn't suddenly a great idea.


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## chimuelo (Aug 25, 2014)

If the Prez is high 5'ing and fundraising these guys can't be too serious of a threat.

I agree he should avoid the cameras and just tell George and Buffet to spot him a billion, that way he can concentrate on the gig instead of these little 4-5 million dollar fundrasiers with movie stars, rappers and other investors.

Some pictures in the Oval Office with toy soldiers and tanks on a big topographical map should convince the Sheep.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 25, 2014)

chimuelo @ Mon Aug 25 said:


> If the Prez is high 5'ing and fundraising these guys can't be too serious of a threat.
> 
> I agree he should avoid the cameras and just tell George and Buffet to spot him a billion, that way he can concentrate on the gig instead of these little 4-5 million dollar fundrasiers with movie stars, rappers and other investors.
> 
> Some pictures in the Oval Office with toy soldiers and tanks on a big topographical map should convince the Sheep.



The fact that a person does not think like the majority, sheep as you call hem, does not mean that that person's analysis holds water in an objective viewing.

Sometimes the majority view is actually correct.


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## handz (Aug 25, 2014)

Islamists, ISIL - worst danger right now. (Ok Ebola is also not good) Western media are stupid, as they sometimes support terrorists from HAMAS but they are not so stupid to not be scared from what is happening in the world with those bastards from ISIL. 

I hope they make some radical move against them as this is gone too far. I read a lot about the situation in medias all over the world, this is very dangerous whats going on. 

I hate EU and their stupid politics with mainly muslime immigration, UK, France, Belgium, Germany now Sweden... everywhere it is starting to be mess and when some radical assholes likw ISIL start to gain power in the world it can get pretty hot in old good Europe as well. Multicultural society is utopic nonsense it not work on middle east it cant work in western world.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 25, 2014)

...however, chim is right about one thing: the media didn't do its job during the run-up to the Iraq war.

This time it sounds like the boogeyman really is dangerous.

(And of course ISIS is all Obama's fault because he didn't bomb [whoever fits] and the world is laughing at the US for being wimps. Translation: Obamacare is working.)


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## José Herring (Aug 25, 2014)

handz @ Mon Aug 25 said:


> Multicultural society is utopic nonsense it not work on middle east it cant work in western world.



Racist B.S.

It has to work because the world is a lot more connected than it was 100 years ago. 

We need to deal with other cultures, religions, races other than our own. Fact of modern life.

Europe is a mess not because of diversity. It's a wreck because it's gotten so weak militarily and economically that it can't even combat real threats against it's own survival, much less handle a growing threat around the world.

Europe has lost it's moral compass and has become all too smug in its reasonable attitude towards existence that it can't even really judge what's right and wrong much less do anything about it. 

Sad really, to see Europe go from the light and beacon of the world to not even really having an effect and begging for help every time one of its countries is on the verge of collapse.


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## d.healey (Aug 25, 2014)

handz @ Mon Aug 25 said:


> Multicultural society is utopic nonsense it not work on middle east it cant work in western world.



There's nothing wrong with a multicultural society, it's one of the best things possible when everyone has the same goals - free trade for the Governments, freedom of choice and the freedom to roam for the people.

The problem is radicals and extremists of any kind who think that killing people who don't share the same world view as themselves is right.

I was in a town at the weekend, in a clothes shop, almost everyone - customers and staff - were middle Eastern/West Asian, some were wearing denim jeans, and cotton t-shirts, others were wearing religious clothing, some of the women had veils and some had head scarfs, some of the men had bushy beards and some didn't. There were one or two white British people in there too, some of them had beards, some wore crosses around their necks, others were in jeans and t-shirts, and some wore baseball caps.

All I saw was people doing some shopping.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 25, 2014)

It is not racism to say that you cannot expect to peacefully resolve issues with a group that by its own words wants to establish Sharia law and impose the death penalty on those that do not accept it.


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## AC986 (Aug 25, 2014)

gbar @ Mon Aug 25 said:


> chimuelo @ Mon Aug 25 said:
> 
> 
> > Don't listen to the media parrots. .
> ...



Or you could listen to Obama and Cameron when they were about to bomb Syria?

Halllooo!


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## José Herring (Aug 25, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Aug 25 said:


> It is not racism to say that you cannot expect to peacefully resolve issues with a group that by its own words wants to establish Sharia law and impose the death penalty on those that do not accept it.



Who said it was?

Talking about multicultural societies in general. Not about a bunch of douche bags that go around beheading people in the name of religion.


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## AC986 (Aug 25, 2014)

josejherring @ Mon Aug 25 said:


> Europe is a mess not because of diversity.



See my recent France post. (part deux).

Watch as France eventually realise that their two main party system has failed comprehensively and begin to take steps by recognising another party tres bientot. As France begins to become independent again, so will other western European countries follow.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 25, 2014)

josejherring @ Mon Aug 25 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Mon Aug 25 said:
> 
> 
> > It is not racism to say that you cannot expect to peacefully resolve issues with a group that by its own words wants to establish Sharia law and impose the death penalty on those that do not accept it.
> ...



Well lI get accused of it at times when I say that we all should all be able to state that a culture that does not allow honor killing, clitoridectomy and relegation of women to inferior status and education to men is superior to one that does, it is somehow not accepting multiculturalism.


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## chimuelo (Aug 25, 2014)

Supporting the Green Revolution in Iran was a missed opportunity, supporting the Free Syrian Rebels, who were secular/progressive natives with peaceful attempts to get the Arab Spring going, were also cast aside.

Liberals and other big speech givers never learn that people outside of the USA actually hear them speak and believe it. They rise up, only to be massacred.

Then after they are all dead or in a refugee camp do we send in the McCain's, Pelosi's, Grahams, and other great dirtbags to give the wrong people tax payers money.
We do that here at home too, so why on Earth do you think these old fools will get it right abroad...?

This is an Army/group created by Qatar, Saudi Arabia and the USA, they even have our training manuals and know our MO on the battlefield. They have US weapons, former Iraqi Generals and advisors operate these machines.
You just don't jump into an M1 Abrahms and start doing doughnuts in the Town Square for YouTube. That requires training.

Since we can't get anything right using Conservatives and Liberals, maybe it's time they get removed.
Palestinian citizens are getting whacked because they elected the wrong guys, we are lucky this hasn't happened to us yet.

Bring back the representative from the "Rent Is Too Damn High" Party we saw in 2012.
The trillions we continue to waste redistributing wealth at home, and trying to regulate the world is failing and has been failing for 50 years.
In the NFL when you fail, you get the boot.

Start voting for any one who has a record of service or who is known to tell the truth.
Nobody hates war more than a soldier.
Politicians on the other hand will be honored to fight to the last drop of your blood.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 25, 2014)

I think there are too many sources reporting markedly similar things for the ISIS or ISIL threat to be mere media hype.

The Pandora's box of the Internet has presented us with many things, both good and bad.One of the bad things is the potential for radicalizing underemployed and impressionable young men from Europe and the U.S.- although really all over the world. 

Something about the recruitment of Jihadis that few seem to realize-they get PAID. There is the religious imperative, there is the exalted social status, there is an economic motivation. If you're working at a grocery store scraping by and feeling low on the totem pole or living on the dole, that can be a lot of impetus towards radicalization.

I worry that Rand Paul's isolationist views on foreign policy could easily become attractive to larger portions of America, and American Conservatism in general could flourish with the growing fears of extremist events within our borders. I worry that Europe will not step up if this turns out to be the world-class threat that it looks like. I worry that Putin will continue to be the merry prankster, saying one thing and doing another in the interest of rebuilding the empire he grew up with-and I have little hope that either Russia or China will recognize that this is more than a threat to the West.


Call me Mister Sunshine.


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 26, 2014)

This is an excellent op ed piece in today's Guardian about the reality of ISIS and the what to do about them - http://gu.com/p/4x2dn . (I am guilty of reading the Guardian a lot - in a highly tainted, owned or cowed media, this article is a good example of why).


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## NYC Composer (Aug 26, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Tue Aug 26 said:


> This is an excellent op ed piece in today's Guardian about the reality of ISIS and the what to do about them - http://gu.com/p/4x2dn . (I am guilty of reading the Guardian a lot - in a highly tainted, owned or cowed media, this article is a good example of why).



Sorry Guy-I read the article and saw nothing coherent re "what to do about them." What I saw was "Bush screwed up Iraq and broke it by taking out Saddam" (paraphrase, not quote.) I already knew that, but the whole of it isn't that simple and never has been anyway.


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 26, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Tue Aug 26 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Tue Aug 26 said:
> 
> 
> > This is an excellent op ed piece in today's Guardian about the reality of ISIS and the what to do about them - http://gu.com/p/4x2dn . (I am guilty of reading the Guardian a lot - in a highly tainted, owned or cowed media, this article is a good example of why).
> ...



Ah - you've missed the article's point Larry - there is no catch-all "coherent " thing we can do about them, sorry if I suggested otherwise. That's the whole alarming point. Useful historical and contemporary context though.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 26, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Tue Aug 26 said:


> NYC Composer @ Tue Aug 26 said:
> 
> 
> > Guy Rowland @ Tue Aug 26 said:
> ...



Don't think so Guy. I might have missed the point of your directing us to that article though :wink:

edit-on the other hand, could have been worse :::DavidIckecoughcough:::


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 26, 2014)

Well indeed. Icke. How quick some folks are to piggy back conspiracy theory and pet ideology into every available problem.

No idea why you're disparaging of the article - point me to a better 1,500 word primer. Not read anything on this thread that could better it.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 26, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Tue Aug 26 said:


> Well indeed. Icke. How quick some folks are to piggy back conspiracy theory and pet ideology into every available problem.
> 
> No idea why you're disparaging of the article - point me to a better 1,500 word primer. Not read anything on this thread that could better it.



End of a long night, question deserves a good answer. Tomorrow.


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## G.R. Baumann (Aug 26, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Tue Aug 26 said:


> This is an excellent op ed piece in today's Guardian about the reality of ISIS and the what to do about them - http://gu.com/p/4x2dn . (I am guilty of reading the Guardian a lot - in a highly tainted, owned or cowed media, this article is a good example of why).



Yeah, that sums it up really:



> So what is Isis essentially – violent millenarian cult, totalitarian state, terrorist network or criminal cartel? The answer is that it is none of these and all of them. Far from being a reversion to anything in the past, Isis is something new – a modern version of barbarism that has emerged in states that have been shattered by western intervention


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## JonFairhurst (Aug 26, 2014)

The problem I have with the Taliban, al qaeda, ISIS, etc (in addition to their brutal tactics) is that they have a vision of a state based on religious exclusion and coercion.

Religious freedom is mandatory in today's, globally connected world.

Having given this some thought, I question Israel's premise of a "Jewish state". After WWII, I appreciate the desire for safe harbor, but a religion-based state is not fully inclusive.

Fortunately, Israel is more about Jewish inclusion than the exclusion of others. As I understand it, Jews are guaranteed citizenship. This is more about including one group than excluding others. I've been there and nobody was the least concerned about my religion. (Security, yes; religion, no.)

https://www.knesset.gov.il/laws/special/eng/return.htm

ISIS, on the other hand, has a very narrow vision of acceptable religion - not only for their own land/people but for the globe. They cannot be allowed to have the resources of a state.

In short, religious extremism sucks. And those who seek purity cannot be allowed to have power.

But I can't help but think that the presence of a "Jewish state" in the region doesn't help justify the desire for Islamic states. The problem is that the vision for Islamic states isn't as benign as saying some people can become citizens. The extremists seem to rise to power seeking a "pure Islamic state", which could be a very dangerous thing.


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## Udo (Aug 26, 2014)

JonFairhurst @ Wed Aug 27 said:


> .......
> ISIS, on the other hand, has a very narrow vision of acceptable religion - not only for their own land/people but for the globe. They cannot be allowed to have the resources of a state.
> .......


Lets face it, the ISIS mentality is very similar to what happened in Europe a few centuries ago, when, e.g., Catholic Christians were burning Protestant Christians at the stake!


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## AC986 (Aug 26, 2014)

Udo @ Tue Aug 26 said:


> JonFairhurst @ Wed Aug 27 said:
> 
> 
> > .......
> ...



And quite right too!

:lol:


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 26, 2014)

Somehow "a few centuries ago" strikes me as an important distinction.


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## AC986 (Aug 26, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Aug 26 said:


> Somehow "a few centuries ago" strikes me as an important distinction.



Let's go back 20 centuries and the Romans. They had an absolutely ENORMOUS amount of fun with this new sect called the Christians. And so has Hollywood centuries later.

Edward 1 or Longshanks as he was known, had a huge hoot with The Jews of England, the Welsh and the Scots 7 or 800 years ago.

Let's look at Henry VIII who was basically insane and his murderous daughter Elizabeth who had a fantastic time in the 16th century. 

People always think that history has no bearing on anything that happens or might happen today. In fact, history is the greatest pointer to exactly what happens today and will continue to be so. 

900 years and 6 or 7 Crusades later.........

:lol:


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## José Herring (Aug 26, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Aug 26 said:


> Somehow "a few centuries ago" strikes me as an important distinction.



How about decades or a decade ago or now?

ISIS type mentality is still existent in the western world. 

Killing Jews in 1945. Killing Muslims in Kosovo in 1995. Antisemitism on the rise again in Europe especially in France.

Police killing blacks in America. The subjugation of women to servants in Hasidic communities. Bigamy in Mormon communities (which still happens in spite of what they say). 

The list goes on and on. 

I know a lot of Muslims. They don't act like ISIS. To say that a whole culture is inferior and then pick out the worst of that culture for comparison really is bigoted. Sorry to say. 

Not that there aren't a lot of bad things happening in Muslim areas of the world. But a lot of bag things happen here and in Europe too.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 26, 2014)

Is there anyone here who honestly believes that there is anything close to a chance that a commensurate number of Christians or Jews will try to enforce a "convert or die" edict as there are Muslims who are at a minimum not unsympathetic to that edict and at a maximum willing to fight for it? Let's get real here.


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## José Herring (Aug 26, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Aug 26 said:


> Is there anyone here who honestly believes that there is anything close to a chance that a commensurate number of Christians or Jews will try to enforce a "convert or die" edict as there are Muslims who are at a minimum not unsympathetic to that edict and at a maximum willing to fight for it? Let's get real here.



Yet I just pointed out an example in Kosovo in the '90ies.

Just to refresh your memory. Christians where killing Muslims because they where Muslim.

And in the 40ies. Christians where killing Jews because they where Jewish. 

And it will happen again in Europe. It's just easier to slap it down in Europe because the US already has troops there 

You need to get real as well because Putin is on the verge of doing it again, mass slaughter because Ukranians don't what to be Russians. 

Easy to point the finger at the other guy. 

And don't even get me started on how Israel treats Palestine.


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## AC986 (Aug 26, 2014)

Jay, the bottom line is the western world only has to to feel genuinely threatened enough.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 26, 2014)

That was Christians And Muslims killing each other, not convert or die. And Putin is no Christian. As for Israel the day that it's enemies stop lobbying bombs into it and threatening its destruction is the day that ends. 

Anyway feel free to stay up nights worrying about those groups doing that in a Western democracy every bit as much as ISIS if you like but I doubt you will have much company.


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 26, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Aug 26 said:


> Is there anyone here who honestly believes that there is anything close to a chance that a commensurate number of Christians or Jews will try to enforce a "convert or die" edict as there are Muslims who are at a minimum not unsympathetic to that edict and at a maximum willing to fight for it? Let's get real here.



My goodness Jay, this is jaw-droppingly foolish. I suggest you start with the recent open letter from 300 holocaust survivors regarding Israel's "genocide" of Palestinians - http://rt.com/news/182472-israel-holocaust-gaza-war/ . Of course this is not an identical scenario to Isis, but IMO it is extraordinarily foolish (being kind with my wording here) to single out one religion in this area. Zionism is hardly benign, for example.

Indeed I'd go further - you don't need a religion to create terrorists prepared to die for their cause at all. Read the essential (and scholarly) Dying To Win by Robert Pape for a primer on what really fuels suicide terrorism. Of course that doesn't mean that extreme ideologues and cults can't successfully hijack religion as a powerful weapon - they do. But other forces are ultimately more powerful.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 26, 2014)

It is complex but nonetheless I believe it ends when, as Golda Meir said, "they love their children more than they hate us." 

But however you view it, comparing that situation to what ISIS has in mind is truly misguided.


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 26, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Aug 26 said:


> It is complex but nonetheless I believe it ends when, as Golda Meir said, "they love their children more than they hate us."
> 
> But however you view it, comparing that situation to what ISIS has in mind is truly misguided.



Not especially. If 300 Jewish holocaust survivors call Israel's actions "genocide", I'll listen.

If that's not on-the-nose enough for you, try Anti-balaka - http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-balaka , a violent Christian militia dedicated to the eradication of Muslims.

Your post actually refers right to the subject heading of the OP. In the main, the Western Media have done a fair job of linking violent extremism exclusively with Islam. There is a link with extremist Islam for sure, but it certainly is not exclusive.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 26, 2014)

Numbers Guy, numbers. Have you seen the poll numbers of how many Muslims in the Middle East think suicide bombing in crowds of people is a legitimate tactic?


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## AC986 (Aug 26, 2014)

They obviously didn't feel threatened enough in Rotheram.


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## AlexandreSafi (Aug 26, 2014)

Bottom line for me is this:
One of the first rules in investigative journalism: 
"Follow the money"

If a reportedly """"2 billion"""" funded organization like ISIS exists, and of course i can't think of a 100 places where those funds would come from but one, it's because the money wants them to exist, it never lets the pieces on the chessboard go random in the events of the world, we should all never lose sight of this one simple element, and as this well-funded ISIS indeed exists, i don't believe the endgame would even be about religion, the money behind wants bigger plans than that, although i'm not excluding erroneous philosophical & intellectual ideology, just religion sounds too easy and too small, like the immediate excuses we got in the media for 9/11, or Bin Laden. It's about chaos, and everything that this implies after that happens, plain and simple... And the question on whether Western media is accurate when it comes to war & politics and current events such as elections, plane crashes, Putin, Ukraine, isn't such a question for me anymore, but i guess if i were to think of an answer, this would lead me to the very simultaneous definition & example of a "conspiracy" -- a word and concept which unfortunately has been utilized in too many events in the past that it inappropriately gets a bad rep in this case (if there's a word that describes racism for a specific word, then i'm all ears :D ) -- A conspiracy for more deception on worldviews, more government and centralized power, whereby you get criticized, ridiculed, imprisoned or worse in other cases if you call out on it, more fear and telling you what to fear, telling you who are the good guys from the bad guys, more fear to more hate leading to more suffering (remember Yoda (o) to Anakin is SW1), and of course in the end less freedom... The events do appear as complex, and they are, but it is my belief that when you always get to the root, the truth is always simpler than it looks, and i can only second Adriancook's brilliant account on the value of history to understand the simplicity of it...


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 26, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Aug 26 said:


> Numbers Guy, numbers. Have you seen the poll numbers of how many Muslims in the Middle East think suicide bombing in crowds of people is a legitimate tactic?



I dunno, is it this one, the first I googled? http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/09/10/mus ... st-groups/ . Interesting numbers for sure. Around 3/4 disapprove of violence in most countries. Worryingly, that switches to 62% support in Palestine. Interesting to compare with the numbers of Israelis who approve of their Palestinian campaign. 94%, as I remember. In a campaign described as "genocide" by 300 holocaust survivors.

Jay, with each post you seem to be digging further into the "this is the line I've been fed by the media" hole. ISIS is a grave problem. They are truly terrifying - there we agree. I only object to your singling Islam out as the only religion capable of generating a significant group like them. It doesn't appear to be supported by the facts. Or, indeed, the numbers.


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## givemenoughrope (Aug 26, 2014)

josejherring @ Tue Aug 26 said:


> And in the 40ies. Christians where killing Jews because they where Jewish.



That statement sounds as broad as "Muslims attacked us on 911." Millions on non-Jewish Poles killed by these "Christians" in the 40s who seem as Christian as ISiS seem Muslim, which is to say not really at all. Plenty of good and bad on all sides.


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## José Herring (Aug 26, 2014)

You reiterated my point. Thx!


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## Udo (Aug 26, 2014)

Udo @ Wed Aug 27 said:


> JonFairhurst @ Wed Aug 27 said:
> 
> 
> > .......
> ...


I should have elaborated when I posted that.

It was meant as a pointer to the 16th century and, by implication, the Spanish Empire and its state sponsored/mandated campaign to spread Catholicism by force, using the Inquisition, etc.

That aspect seemed to me similar to ISIS's intentions (although for Spain, spreading the Catholic religion by force was not the only focus, commerce was another one). 

Anyway, as the saying goes:"History repeats itself".


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## cc64 (Aug 26, 2014)

A bit late to the party here, maybe this is old news to some of you but what Mr Rather says here resonates with me.

http://crooksandliars.com/cltv/2014/08/ ... ou-willing

Claude


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 26, 2014)

Jose wrote:



> (Europe's) a wreck because it's gotten so weak militarily and economically that it can't even combat real threats against it's own survival, much less handle a growing threat around the world.



Militarily? I don't agree with that at all. But economically, because of bad public policy - austerity. And I blame the Germans, who just don't get that inflation there is better than unemployment everywhere.

Larry:



> I worry that Rand Paul's isolationist views on foreign policy could easily become attractive to larger portions of America, and American Conservatism in general could flourish with the growing fears of extremist events within our borders.



I worry about American conservatism, because it's the biggest obstacle to solving all the problems of the world.

But isolationist foreign policy is as likely to take hold as dovish foreign policy, and for the same reasons: 1. realpolitik/power/money, 2. look how f-ing stupid the American public is. They think fighting and killing are the answer to everything. Guns, penises, anti-intellectualism - that's half the f-ing country. It's really depressing.

And if the Iraq war were being sold for a third time, most people would be supporting it in a heartbeat just like the first two times. Without question.

ISIS probably does need to be defeated, but I believe they have 12,000 members. That's a lot of people, but it's not like a jihadist mofo is going to knock on your door and steal your penis tonight.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 26, 2014)

Claude, that clip is great. I'm with Dan Rather.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 26, 2014)

Also, Jose, the other side of the coin is that Europe has come a hell of a long way since WWII.

My reaction when we visited Dachau was that it wasn't long enough ago, but for all its disastrous economic impact, the EU is a remarkable spiritual achievement.

That's why the EU won the Nobel Peace Prize.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 26, 2014)

[quote="Guy Rowland @ Tue Aug 26, 2014 3:11 pm"
Jay, with each post you seem to be digging further into the "this is the line I've been fed by the media" hole. ISIS is a grave problem. They are truly terrifying - there we agree. I only object to your singling Islam out as the only religion capable of generating a significant group like them. It doesn't appear to be supported by the facts. Or, indeed, the numbers.[/quote]

OK, educate me. If that is the case, please point me to the website or article where a Christian group with a large number of members writes or is quoted as saying "we will kill all who do not convert to Christianity" or a Jewish group that says that.

On the streets of London, ask people who live there when the last time a Christian or Jewish group blew up something that cost innocent lives there and then ask them about how afraid they are of that.

There have certainly been times in history when Christian killed large numbers of non-Christians in the name of Christianity, but Hitler was not Christian or Jewish; nor was Stalin; nor was Pol Pot; nor was Sadaam Hussein; nor was Idi Amin.

Need I go on? 

And the Pew report also found:
"As many as four in ten Muslims living in Afghanistan and Palestine support the use of suicide bombing, an extensive new international survey has found.
The high support for the desperate tactic in those war-torn regions was nearly matched in Egypt and Bangladesh, where 29 per cent and 26 per cent of respondents agreed with its use respectively."


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## José Herring (Aug 26, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Aug 26 said:


> Also, Jose, the other side of the coin is that Europe has come a hell of a long way since WWII.
> 
> My reaction when we visited Dachau was that it wasn't long enough ago, but for all its disastrous economic impact, the EU is a remarkable spiritual achievement.
> 
> That's why the EU won the Nobel Peace Prize.




Eu is crashing and burning. And when it does. I fear for my European friends. >8o


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## marclawsonmusic (Aug 26, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Aug 26 said:


> ... 2. look how f-ing stupid the American public is. They think fighting and killing are the answer to everything. Guns, penises, anti-intellectualism - that's half the f-ing country. It's really depressing..


Nick, yes the general American population is basically "stupid", but sometimes the only way to deal with people who want you dead is to kill them first.

Israel seems to get this - they respond with 10x force to any attack against their country. Good for them and sad for anyone who attacks them.

As for ISIS/ISIL... "I say we take off and nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." I have no sympathy for anyone who commits the barbarism I saw last week. And, yes, they give their religion a bad name, just like the stupid Christians who blow up abortion clinics... but these ISIS guys are much MUCH worse.

Because I have yet to see ONE stupid anti-abortion Christian kidnap a pregnant female from a clinic, decapitate her (LIVE), video it, and share it with the world. As crazy as Eric Rudolph and those nutcases are, they are nothing like these ISIS bastards. No comparison.

You can talk about what has happened in history, but I'm talking about what happened this week.

So, kill 'em all. Quick. Because one day, they will be doing that shit in your neighborhood. I'm sorry, but these guys need to go. What I saw last week was EVIL. Pure and simple. I just hope we have the guts to do something about it... I'm not sure that we do.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 26, 2014)

Jose, if the EU were crashing and burning it would have happened during the peak of the financial crisis - in fact they came very close. The economy is terrible there, no question, but the union is not falling apart.

Marc, that's what I'm talking about. Kill kill kill. It takes more guts not to resort to knee jerk solutions to complicated issues. ISIS is not trying to kill you, any more than the children near Hamas' bombs in Gaza are. We can't just drop a bomb on the entire region.

And the religion has nothing to do with it. That's just the excuse, and you can always come up with another one.


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## José Herring (Aug 26, 2014)

Truth is there's only room on this earth for one empire at a time, I'd rather it be us than the rebirth of the old Ottoman Empire under the rule of some radical Muslim group proclaiming all earth as their caliphate.

So we need to slap ISIS down before they really get going.


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 27, 2014)

Jay, the quickest thing here might be to simply link Wikipedia on Christian terrorism which has plenty on contemporary and historical examples. Education begins here - http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism . Who poses the most threat to you will of course depend on where and when you are born. For example if you live in Palestine today, your greatest risk comes from Zionism.

Marc - your posts are terrifying. One thing is certain regarding Israeli foreign policy - for every innocent man women and child they kill, they end up recruiting more enemies around the world that will attack them in the future. Forgive me, but I don't see your suggested genocide as either a moral or a practical solution.

We have recent history in England from terrorism from a neighbour - the IRA campaign of the 70s and 80s. If we'd have bombed Northern Ireland and killed 100s of innocent civilians for every person murdered here, I suspect we'd be in exceptionally bad shape right now. Not claiming we did everything right - we didn't - but at least we realised overwhelming force against innocents wasn't a smart move.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 27, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Wed Aug 27 said:


> Jay, the quickest thing here might be to simply link Wikipedia on Christian terrorism which has plenty on contemporary and historical examples. Education begins here - http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism . Who poses the most threat to you will of course depend on where and when you are born. For example if you live in Palestine today, your greatest risk comes from Zionism.
> 
> Marc - your posts are terrifying. One thing is certain regarding Israeli foreign policy - for every innocent man women and child they kill, they end up recruiting more enemies around the world that will attack them in the future. Forgive me, but I don't see your suggested genocide as either a moral or a practical solution.
> 
> We have recent history in England from terrorism from a neighbour - the IRA campaign of the 70s and 80s. If we'd have bombed Northern Ireland and killed 100s of innocent civilians for every person murdered here, I suspect we'd be in exceptionally bad shape right now. Not claiming we did everything right - we didn't - but at least we realised overwhelming force against innocents wasn't a smart move.




Guy, first let me apologize for my bad-tempered response last night. It wasn't necessary. Long night, sorry. That said, I found the article to be a digest of generalizations and things I already know. I didn't find it enlightening or helpful, so I felt a bit misled. It seemed in your statement about the article that there were suggestions about what direction to take within it (re ISIS). It took me 5 minutes to read, no big deal. Others probably find it enlightening, all good. 

re Israel-I'm Jewish and have never been an Israel apologist. A supporter at times, but I take as objective a view as possible under the circumstances. The present government in Gaza has in their charter a non-recognition of Israel's right to exist. We're not talking about some kind of theoretical thing here-Hamas wants the Jews to leave Israel or die.
At some point they may change the language or the charter, but that's where we stand now. They are lobbing rockets over the border in defiance of the stronger military power. They are hiding munitions within U.N. schools and shelters. Their approach is quite calculated, and their interests do not necessarily lie in the well being of the Palestinian people. There has been a lot of money that has flowed into Hamas over recent years-that money has not gone into building universities, bomb shelters or businesses, it's gone into the purchase of munitions.

Meanwhile, back in the practical world, millions of Jews are not going to pick up and emigrate to Midwestern Canada. They're not leaving, and they're largely uninterested in dying-so in their present incarnation, I don't see Hamas, those brave freedom fighters, getting their way. Every time Hamas stops lobbing rockets over the border, Israel has stopped bombing. Then it starts again. In a practical sense, how do you suggest that Israel negotiates a peace?

Is Israel guilty of abuses in the name of self defense? I fully believe so. I'm horrified by the entire situation in the region. I'm also troubled by the ease with which people choose a dog in this fight. It's not simple. It's never been simple, and it's not getting any easier at present. There was a time I believed there was a light at the end of the tunnel. It's grown dim. I hope for change in a brighter day.

I think one has to really take a look at all sides in a matter like this. Facile equivalencies strike me as being as bad as facile explanations and excuses for injustices.


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## Peter Alexander (Aug 27, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Mon Aug 25 said:


> FWIW I was 100% against the Iraq war, but think this is entirely different. Helps that the enemy here isn't a nation, accused of invented crimes. It's more analogous to the ongoing fight with Al Qaida really. The obvious problem is of how and where to do it in such murky areas of the world - siding with Assad isn't suddenly a great idea.



Since they have changed their name to IS and now command territory they've taken by force to establish a physical land base, then yes, they are now a nation state. And they have openly declared war on the USA.


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 27, 2014)

Larry - no worries of course. And I agree Hamas' tactics are utterly hopeless. As for the charter - of course it's appalling, and of course it can only be understood in context of their historical situation. Their lack of freedom, poverty and huge populous for such a small area of land isn't conducive to reason and dialogue. I'm not excusing Hamas' actions, rather trying to understand them. What is virtually certain is that the current behaviour from both sides (in different ways) is likely to continue to reduce stability in the region and the wider world. A wider political solution can be the only possible way forward there, not that that is news to anyone.

Peter - ISIS are not a nation as recognised by anyone else and don't have borders. Any attack on them has to happen within a recognised nation. That's the reality, not the rhetoric. Indeed, I heard pleas the other day from Muslims not to use the inflammatory term they use of themselves for propaganda purposes, Islamic State.


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## AC986 (Aug 27, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Aug 26 said:


> Jose, if the EU were crashing and burning it would have happened during the peak of the financial crisis - in fact they came very close. The economy is terrible there, no question, but the union is not falling apart.



Yes it is. France is a fucking basket case and look what just happened there. It's only going to take France to pull out and it's all over. 

If France comes to it senses and returns to the franc, everyone else pulls out and leaves Germany with the strongest currency in the world.....for a while. The DM won't become the worlds go to currency lets put it like that.

Marie Le Penn takes over France and the whole game changes overnight. 

The only reason Mickey Mouse countries get involved with the EU is because they want rights to emigrate legally to countries that offer them things like free medical Etc. The NHS in the UK has been totall fckd by these fuckng assholes and sooner or later it has to change and of course, it will.

It's out of hand. Look at Rotheram. That's been going on since 1997. The election in May 2015 will probably split the vote for Cameron because he's a wet weekend in Scarborough and then you'll be 10 minutes away from pockets of civil war and unrest in certain areas.

The liberal utopian pipe dream is over people. War beckons.

On on on !!!

:lol:


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## AC986 (Aug 27, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Aug 26 said:


> Is there anyone here who honestly believes that there is anything close to a chance that a commensurate number of Christians or Jews will try to enforce a "convert or die" edict as there are Muslims who are at a minimum not unsympathetic to that edict and at a maximum willing to fight for it? Let's get real here.



If someone had been lobbing rockets at me for over 2 years I would want the place doing the lobbing flattened. And I mean eradicated from the history books. I think Israel has shown enormous patience.
My father spent 4 years in Palestine, so nobody start telling me the fucking score please. Many thanks.


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## marclawsonmusic (Aug 27, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Wed Aug 27 said:


> Marc - your posts are terrifying. One thing is certain regarding Israeli foreign policy - for every innocent man women and child they kill, they end up recruiting more enemies around the world that will attack them in the future. Forgive me, but I don't see your suggested genocide as either a moral or a practical solution.


For someone who calls others out on logical fallacies, you choose a good one here, Guy. 'Genocide'. Good grief. Straw man, anyone? I never suggested genocide, Guy. I suggested wiping out the bad guys. Ruthlessly. 

If my post was terrifying, I am sorry, but it's a terrifying world. I was certainly terrified when I saw that video last week. I have children to protect and don't need those monsters coming over here. And, they will if they can.


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## marclawsonmusic (Aug 27, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Aug 27 said:


> We can't just drop a bomb on the entire region.


Sad that a forum of film composers did not get my tongue-and-cheek reference there. Let me explain - we need a nuke-like (decisive and relentless) response to these guys because... "it's the only way to be sure."



Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Aug 27 said:


> Marc, that's what I'm talking about. Kill kill kill. It takes more guts not to resort to knee jerk solutions to complicated issues.


Sorry, Nick, but it is not a knee-jerk reaction. When faced with evil - true evil like I saw in that video - there is only one possible response: It must go. And, you are wrong, in this era of political-correctness and moral ambiguity, it actually takes more guts to call something what it is. People these days would spend endless hours psycho-analyzing Hitler, writing op-eds, discussing on forums and trying to _understand _his behavior... And all the while he would be building his gas-chambers and concentration camps.

Some apples are bad. Some fruit goes to rot. And these ISIS guys are definitely bad fruit. They have no place on this planet and should be swept out like the bugs they are. Hopefully soon.

Let me try again... "You know, you gotta stop them at the beginning. Like they should have stopped Hitler at Munich." :wink:

PS - I think I'm gonna bow out of this discussion. I like (and respect) you guys too much to argue with you. This is starting to feel like Facebook... and I quit that years ago.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 27, 2014)

+1 for Marc. Guy, look up "existential threat" and you will understand what they are up against. And for the US, I think ISIS is now arguably an existential threat.


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 27, 2014)

Marc - I have no idea what you are proposing. "Kill the bad guys". Great idea. Who? Where? And most of all - how? Without nuking the entire region I mean?

It takes no guts to say "kill all the evil people". It's actually a meaningless statement without any notion of how one might decide who is and who isn't evil enough to die - (ISIS = evil enough this week, Assad's regime = not evil enough this week for example, while last year it was the reverse) Then further having decided who to kill, how to kill them without wiping out vast numbers of the innocent populous is the next pressing issue. All you've done is state an unachievable aim, which if even attempted without forensic accuracy and impeccable judgement, will merely begat the next generation of terror, probably even more abhorrent to us than the last.

One of the most sobering aspects of the whole Middle Eastern region right now is the paucity of good guys. And the West have played a huge, huge part in creating that. How to begin unpicking it all is the great challenge that is now faced. And like Larry, my optimism is severely dented on that challenge being met.


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## chimuelo (Aug 27, 2014)

Angry vicious composers united.... o=< !!!!!

Well personally I am proud of our Prez and he has not faltered, even as frothing Liberals and die hard Neo Cons gang up on him.

He won't allow us to join hands with Syria, he refuses to allow Iran any influence over the arming of various ethnic groups, and he has forced Iraq into standing on it's own 2 feet, in spite of the cowardice displayed by Iraqi troops. They have a new Government now. o-[][]-o 

Ukraine is being carved up by Russia.....yeah, so it use to be Russia.

Europeans are addicted to Russian Energy, please save us Obama, sure, you make the next move on the Chessboard Angela.

Libya is being over run by evil terrorists, where's the Americans.....On the Golf Course, fundraising, high fiving with NBA stars...........UAE and Egypt grew a Penis and bombed the targets themselves for once.

Please tell me where the failure to act is..? By not acting we have created a coalition of sorts, and the Prez is an excellent 7 Stud Player.

To me I don't care about the domestic nonsense and have no control over these 2 crime families and the way they lie and cheat us out of trillions.
To me, these are 2 spoiled rotten children who take advantage of both parents (us, the tax payers) due to a divorce/separation. Trust me, in 2016 you will see Chelsea Clinton running Hillarys campaign, not Bill, although he will be allowed a spot, nobody knows how to make daddy kneel better than the daughter that tolerated his war on women.

I don't give a shit about domestic squabbles. I was told Carter was terrible, America was dying, gas is high, there's no jobs. Funny, my Dad signed a paper giving me permission to be a dishwasher at 15 under Carter, so I feasted on Howard Johnsons Fried Clams and took home Prime Rib as that's how you fight against a low minimum wage. I did fine under Carter.
Then came Reagan, what an idiot, he's an actor, he's raising taxes, life is terrible under Ronny R.

Yet this actor freed millions in Europe, brought down Communism and Russia, so again I am in the camp of the guys doing us good overseas, I can handle myself just fine. Bought 2 houses under Reagans terms, but the sniveling "what about me, I am a human with feelings crowd" is never happy.

So under the Bush /CHeney GOP I took a beating, lost 55% of my net worth, and even after a slight comeback still got beat up for 200 large over the last 5 years, but I got a great rig, work where I want even though I hear the "what about me crowd" crying as usual.

So as bad as ISIS/IL/O seems to be the Prez is playing a magnificient hand and we will prosper here at home in due time as we aren't spending trillions so Iraqis and Afghans can vote as our kids guard the Polls. No More of that crap.

Time for Middle East dictasters to step up like we see in Egypt, UAE and bless those pesky Kurds. They get gassed and come back for seconds.

Americans should be grateful we have such a strategist getting us out of these shitholes we should have never stayed in.

If it makes any sense, Obama did what he saw Bush do successfully and is wise for doing so.
Our finest hour was Bush Sr.'s containment policy, and Bush Jr's removal of the Taliban using technology, and local forces.
He failed after that every where and we are now fixing it once and for all.

The Middle East is a shit hole, a bad location. You could open up a McDonalds there and it would fail. Time to take care of Main Street.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 27, 2014)

chimuelo @ Wed Aug 27 said:


> So under the Bush /CHeney GOP I took a beating, lost 55% of my net worth, and even after a slight comeback still got beat up for 200 large over the last 5 years, but I got a great rig, work where I want even though I hear the "what about me crowd" crying as usual.



1. You had net worth to lose. I guess that's because you're industrious as opposed to all those fckheads who are lazy losers. You know, the women and children who make up most of the poverty in the U.S.

2. Look, pal- I've worked hard all my life, and I got mine, but I recognize the advantages I had to start with. I'm not one of the "what about me" crowd- I'm one of the "what about them" crowd. You may see this as paternalistic, and I'm sure you're partially right, just as I think you're somewhat obsessed with "takers", and I'm probably completely right :wink: 

3. Didn't you make a statement that at one time in your life you needed and took government assistance?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 27, 2014)

The idea that ISIS an existential threat to anyone here is beyond stupid. They're a threat to our interests and they're a good bogeyman to blame on Obama.

Besides, we're bombing them already, soon in Syria as well as Iraq. What else can we do?

Marc, there's nothing morally ambiguous or politically correct about anything I for one am saying. Everyone finds them as offensive as you do. What does that have to do with the best response? There are plenty of evil people in the world and always have been. Obama's credo is right on: don't do stupid stuff.

(By the way, whenever someone says "politically correct" you can be sure the following comment is going to lack subtlety.)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 27, 2014)

The bigger point is that not one person here has enough information to declare that we need to go to war against ISIS.

And to answer Dan Rather's rhetorical question: hell fucking no I wouldn't send my beautiful daughter to be killed.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 27, 2014)

I guess you don't believe that a well funded well armed terrorist group could pull off attacks here that would make 9/11 appear like a traffic collision by comparison? Well I do and I sure hope that those in charge of our security do as well.


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## chimuelo (Aug 27, 2014)

Don't be so defensive NYC....

I just would rather see our foreign adventurism contained, and as we saw the boom under Clinton when we started drawing down on huge conventional forces that seem to cost lives and money, and rarely resolve anything.

And the takers as you refer to them as, are desperate folks who need a hand up not a hand out with permanent damage, as when you try and work you lose your benefits.
Nice incentive there 'eh.

You should read what happens to people who go and work for a few weeks trying to get ahead.
They come back and wait for hours in lines to get back on only to find out that...."What, you worked and earned 1800 USD in a single quarter"....you are now disqualified.

What I do despise are these rich out of touch jerk offs who don't manage anything right and feel since they threw billions of dollars at a problem, that they did their job and pat themselves on the back and demand your vote.

Really sad part about more of their unintended consequences is the tax liability.
Unemployment and EBT benefits are considered income, and anyone making more than 5 grand a year is liable.
Since these benefits are barely enough to get by nobody is paying their taxes.
So years down the road once the economy gets going they get a bill from the IRS with penalties and interest.

That's the part of trap that will swallow you up long after the wealthy redistributors have left DC with their millions.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 27, 2014)

chimuelo @ Wed Aug 27 said:


> Don't be so defensive NYC....
> 
> I just would rather see our foreign adventurism contained, and as we saw the boom under Clinton when we started drawing down on huge conventional forces that seem to cost lives and money, and rarely resolve anything.
> 
> ...



Ok, not takers. Who are these "what about me " whiners you refer to?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 27, 2014)

Jay, just how will it work that killing a bunch of bloodthirsty people 7500 miles away is going to prevent them from launching terrorist attacks here?

"9/11 9/11 9/11 9/11 9/11" isn't bad enough. Now it's "makes Al Queda look moderate!"

This is all a steaming mound of fear-mongering bullshit. I'm dismayed that so many otherwise intelligent people are falling for it.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 27, 2014)

And which logical fallacy is it when you identify a problem and then go to a non sequitur?

You know, "Aren't you concerned about malaria? And you say I DON'T need a new laser printer?!"


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## chimuelo (Aug 27, 2014)

The people who do nothing for anyone or their community yet feel they are entitled to something for being born.
That mentality bothers me.

It's like men who impregnate a woman and feel that the girl didn't have a rubber, not my fault.

Same as the girl who got pregnant because we wouldn't give her free rubbers.

So many slithers of victimhood, take your pick.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 27, 2014)

chimuelo @ Wed Aug 27 said:


> The people who do nothing for anyone or their community yet feel they are entitled to something for being born.
> That mentality bothers me.
> 
> It's like men who impregnate a woman and feel that the girl didn't have a rubber, not my fault.
> ...



Okay...and you realize that who you're talking about does not describe the majority of the poor in this country, right?


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## NYC Composer (Aug 27, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Aug 27 said:


> Jay, just how will it work that killing a bunch of bloodthirsty people 7500 miles away is going to prevent them from launching terrorist attacks here?
> 
> "9/11 9/11 9/11 9/11 9/11" isn't bad enough. Now it's "makes Al Queda look moderate!"
> 
> This is all a steaming mound of fear-mongering [email protected]#t. I'm dismayed that so many otherwise intelligent people are falling for it.



Consider the fact that ISIS is using social media themselves to fearmonger, which then gets picked up by mainstream media. More, broadcasting beheadings is not just barbaric-it's brazen and tactical. To some extent, they're achieving their objective.

What path do you suggest taking? Get out of there and let them duke it out? Close up our borders best we can? (this is a serious question.)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 27, 2014)

Larry, as I said, I don't know the answer to that question, because like everyone else here I don't have enough information.

Is there really anything we can do (other than bombing)? What is the real threat these people pose? How many lives will it cost to try and stop them - ours and innocent civilians'? Can we actually stop them? What will it accomplish? How much money will it cost, and is it worth it? What are the options, and how does each one stack up against all those questions? And so on.

What I do know is that we already have cloak and dagger people all over the world trying to foil terror plots - for which I'm grateful. Defeating an army over there is very unlikely to help with that.

The other thing I know is that you have to be extremely gullible to call this an existential threat. A few thousand bloodthirsty tribesmen are going to take down the US?!

Come on.

But my main point is what I keep saying: all you people who are so sure that the answer is to go kill some people have some issues, in my opinion.


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## chimuelo (Aug 27, 2014)

I want to watch the Prez play more Golf, and go to Hawaii and Surf, etc.
It pisses off everyone I love seeing mad. Including ISIS/IL/O.


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 27, 2014)

3 pages in, and - unless I missed it - still no one from the "we gotta kill them all right now" camp saying how they'd do it.

I object to the feverish language and singular targeting of Islam because the clear danger here is in a bone-headed response making things worse. Dubya whipped up Americans to support an attack on Iraq as a response to 9/11 without any link between the two whatsoever. He invented WMDs when they had none, and when they didn't declare them then took it as proof of non-compliance and invaded. Medieval stuff. Afterwards, of course, the rationale for invading was changed. As a result, the country that had no ties to terrorism now is its very breeding ground, and countless more were recruited to the Jihadist's cause because there was an obvious and manifest wrong being played out. Are we really so keen to just bomb soneone - anyone - now without thinking it through first? Do we not realise that it was the outraged public at large's appetite for revenge that enabled the politicians to go precisely in the wrong direction? I have no issue with accepting that ISIS are dangerous and should be stopped, only with the gung-ho haste and lack of thought that seems to accompany the cries for tough action without saying what that tough action actually is. It never seems to occur to some that by blundering now we could actually hasten or worsen those next attacks on the West of which we are so afraid.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 27, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Thu Aug 28 said:


> 3 pages in, and - unless I missed it - still no one from the "we gotta kill them all right now" camp saying how they'd do it.
> 
> I object to the feverish language and singular targeting of Islam because the clear danger here is in a bone-headed response making things worse. Dubya whipped up Americans to support an attack on Iraq as a response to 9/11 without any link between the two whatsoever. He invented WMDs when they had none, and when they didn't declare them then took it as proof of non-compliance and invaded. Medieval stuff. Afterwards, of course, the rationale for invading was changed. As a result, the country that had no ties to terrorism now is its very breeding ground, and countless more were recruited to the Jihadist's cause because there was an obvious and manifest wrong being played out. Are we really so keen to just bomb soneone - anyone - now without thinking it through first? Do we not realise that it was the outraged public at large's appetite for revenge that enabled the politicians to go precisely in the wrong direction? I have no issue with accepting that ISIS are dangerous and should be stopped, only with the gung-ho haste and lack of thought that seems to accompany the cries for tough action without saying what that tough action actually is. It never seems to occur to some that by blundering now we could actually hasten or worsen those next attacks on the West of which we are so afraid.



I was with you 'til the last sentence, Guy. Whatever our policy moves are going forward, we really can't base them on "uh oh, let's not do this or that because it may piss them off and they'll come after us." First, that ship sailed a long time ago. Second,in my opinion-from a foreign policy viewpoint, that's a Neville Chamberlin nightmare of appeasement. "Let them overrun countries as long as they don't come after us" sort of thing. I can't buy that. I don't know what the alternatives will be yet, but "do what you will but don't hurt us" doesn't work for me. It never ends well.

Do you get the idea that radical Islam wants to negotiate with the West? I sure don't.


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 27, 2014)

Uh oh, you misunderstand me. I mean it in the sense of "don't bomb thousands of innocent civilians" not "we might upset them". (Thought that was implicit in the overal tone of the post, but can see how it could be misread).


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## NYC Composer (Aug 28, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Thu Aug 28 said:


> Uh oh, you misunderstand me. I mean it in the sense of "don't bomb thousands of innocent civilians" not "we might upset them". (Thought that was implicit in the overal tone of the post, but can see how it could be misread).



I see. I agree there, but as of now, civilians are already dying. Who's to know what's right? It all sucks.


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 28, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Thu Aug 28 said:


> It all sucks.



On that, surely we can all agree...


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## TheUnfinished (Aug 28, 2014)

Fuck me. This thread.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 28, 2014)

TheUnfinished @ Thu Aug 28 said:


> f#@k me. This thread.



?


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## TheUnfinished (Aug 28, 2014)

Sorry Larry, basically some of the comments here present I might expect under a YouTube video, but on a supposedly moderate and intelligent composers forum...? Sheesh.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 28, 2014)

TheUnfinished @ Thu Aug 28 said:


> Sorry Larry, basically some of the comments here present I might expect under a YouTube video, but on a supposedly moderate and intelligent composers forum...? Sheesh.



Oh. That.

I guess we expect artists to differ from the genpop, and I think percentage-wise, we do. Still, you really can't expect everyone in the arts to share the same views, right?


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## TheUnfinished (Aug 28, 2014)

Share the same views, no.

Hold views that suggest they wouldn't know which way round to sit on a toilet, also no.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 28, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Aug 27 said:


> Larry, as I said, I don't know the answer to that question, because like everyone else here I don't have enough information.
> 
> Is there really anything we can do (other than bombing)? What is the real threat these people pose? How many lives will it cost to try and stop them - ours and innocent civilians'? Can we actually stop them? What will it accomplish? How much money will it cost, and is it worth it? What are the options, and how does each one stack up against all those questions? And so on.
> 
> ...



We did not take Al Qaeda seriously enough until they did real harm. I do not want us to make the same mistake with this group, When someone says, "I am going to come after you" as they are, I take them at their word and yes, I want them killed before they kill others. If that means I have issues, well, once again, I hope a whole lot of people in positions of power all throughout the Western world have the same issues.

And btw, Clinton did the right thing in Bosnia and now says his biggest regret is that he did not intervene in Rwanda.


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## José Herring (Aug 28, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Aug 27 said:


> The bigger point is that not one person here has enough information to declare that we need to go to war against ISIS.
> 
> And to answer Dan Rather's rhetorical question: hell [email protected]#king no I wouldn't send my beautiful daughter to be killed.



ISIS is a threat to the US. Not this minute but very well could be in the next few months to a year. They've taken over a lot of land including military bases and just today they took over a military base in Syria. Their plan is clear. They are really strategic. They'll expand a bit at a time, taking over cities, recruiting forces and gathering up money in the form of funding and taxes. These aren't some rag tag bunch of terrorist. It has every intention, intelligence and capability of taking over parts of Iraq and Syria and forming it's own country. 

Just as Clinton thought Al-Queda was no threat to the US so therefore did nothing about it, we really have to take ISIS seriously while they're still relatively week.

And, 2) at this stage fighting ISIS on the ground would be a special forces war. Sending an army at this time will be a mistake as ISIS is still not a country and thus if confronted with a organized large force would just scatter and then it would turn into another door to door type war protracted forever.

Hitting them hard and soon with airstrikes and special forces on the ground would drive them back. But we couldn't stop until all it's leadership is dead and the organization defended.

ISIS is an outright evil empire on the rise. No threat to the US yet, but we thought the same about Al-Queda until it was too late. Can't make the same mistake twice. 

If allowed to flourish it will quickly become the biggest threat to the US around the world. 

Can't get all pacifist on these guys. We need to kill them. Period. There is evil in the world and you're looking at it when you look at ISIS. If that evil wasn't committing genocide, I might be inclined to agree with not doing much about it. But, it has nothing but genocide on it's mind.

And don't forget that Syria and Iraq both have biological weapons and medium range missiles. Sooner than a threat to the US, it will be a threat to Europe in no time.


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 30, 2014)

Well, I'm with Paddy:

http://gu.com/p/4x6d3

I sense in the last few days here, reality receding and politics intervening. A very timely piece.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 30, 2014)

Jose, how are you proposing to kill them? We tried that before and it just made the situation worse. When Obama says he "doesn't have a strategy," he saying the right thing: this requires a plan that involves more than just knee-jerk kill kill kill.

That's why I'm so frustrated at everyone: nobody can think farther than that. The world is a complicated place.



> We did not take Al Qaeda seriously enough until they did real harm. I do not want us to make the same mistake with this group, When someone says, "I am going to come after you" as they are, I take them at their word and yes, I want them killed before they kill others. If that means I have issues, well, once again, I hope a whole lot of people in positions of power all throughout the Western world have the same issues.



Jay, you sound like a shout radio host, not a reasonable human being with his eyes open.

What do you mean we didn't take Al Qaeda seriously, first of all?! That's just ludicrous! We had an intelligence failure - in hindsight - but for heaven's sake, we backed the Muhadajeen in Afghanistan who later became them! That happens to have finally won the Cold War, but we've never been noninterventionist pacifists in our entire history (in fact we've been at war constantly). And I believe that created blowback, in fact we're fortunate it didn't create more.

By the way, did you know that we've been at war in Afghanistan?

And do you really believe we weren't paying attention to Bin Laden after, say, the Cole?!

I'm totally shocked and frustrated at how everyone "knows" what they have absolutely no idea about. It's all so simple-minded.




> And btw, Clinton did the right thing in Bosnia and now says his biggest regret is that he did not intervene in Rwanda.



Bosnia, Rwanda, ISIS, all the same thing?

This isn't a question of whether intervening is good or bad in the abstract, it's what to do about this situation.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 30, 2014)

Two other points.

1. Even the most hawkish foreign policy wonks are't saying we need to go to war and kill them all. They recognize that this is going to require a much more refined plan.

2. Don't lose sight of what I think I posted before: a lot of this is because Obamacare is working. This is a new attack.

Okay, a third point:

3. Obama asked Congress whether they wanted to bomb Syria last year, and they voted against it. How quickly we forget.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 30, 2014)

If I had to guess about the immediate future, I'd say this:

1. Continuing targeted airstrikes
2. Frantic building of coalitions within and without Iraq and Syria, trying to involve Arab nations as fully as possible.
3. Targeted Special Forces Ops with JSOC leading the charge
4. Massive funding expansion for CIA, FBI, Homeland Security, overtime for cops etc.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 30, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Aug 30 said:


> Jose, how are you proposing to kill them? We tried that before and it just made the situation worse. When Obama says he "doesn't have a strategy," he saying the right thing: this requires a plan that involves more than just knee-jerk kill kill kill.
> 
> That's why I'm so frustrated at everyone: nobody can think farther than that. The world is a complicated place.
> 
> ...



Read Richard Clarke's book or Lawrence Wright's book and tell me we had our eye on the ball.


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## juliansader (Aug 30, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Sat 30 Aug said:


> Well, I'm with Paddy:
> 
> http://gu.com/p/4x6d3
> 
> I sense in the last few days here, reality receding and politics intervening. A very timely piece.



It really frustrates and worries me when people say things like "The truth is that this increasingly brutal and dangerous battle will not be won for our "western values" but for the universal values which underpin and unite all the world's great religions and philosophies – including, perhaps especially at this moment, Islam." and "I happen to believe that what is happening in the Middle East at the moment is a convulsion which will, in due course, play itself out as ordinary Muslims recapture their religion for its true values."

I wonder, has Paddy actually read the Quran? Or the hadith?


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## germancomponist (Aug 30, 2014)

Perhaps these are paid mercenaries / professional killer and you should find out who paid them?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 30, 2014)

> Read Richard Clarke's book or Lawrence Wright's book and tell me we had our eye on the ball.



Jay, you're saying we need to go to war because this is an existential threat. And the only alternative is total pacifism.

Richard Clarke is talking about security failures! That's totally different from what you're saying.

Again, my argument is with the knee-jerk reactions we're seeing in this country. Of course we need security, and Richard Clarke would know if we have problems with it. He's an extremely impressive guy.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 30, 2014)

I basically agree with juliansader too.

It's never about religion, it's about power (and economics, which is the same thing). Religion is just the excuse.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 30, 2014)

germancomponist @ Sat Aug 30 said:


> Perhaps these are paid mercenaries / professional killer and you should find out who paid them?



Good point. "Jihadist" is an occupation, and not enough people recognize that.


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## José Herring (Aug 30, 2014)

It's not knee jerk on my part. I gave what I would do if Jose J. Herring were president quite clearly. 

At this point it's a special forces war. If we let them become a country then it will be all out war.

But, don't take my word for it. Even the Rebels fighting the Syrian government are willing to join with Syria to fight ISIS. It's that bad. Iran was willing to partner with the US to fight ISIS. It's that bad.

This could be the biggest threat to the world very shortly.

The world may be a complicated place, but this situation isn't that complicated. They need to be wiped off the map while they still can be with relative ease. And if we don't do it soon, that will be bad. 

I do notice though that they seem to be getting weaker. They could have over extended themselves and expanded too broadly too quickly. Whenever they do meet opposition they are easily beaten back. And, I read a report that ISIS fighters are leaving and going back home. It's like the less sure people are seeing the storm on the horizon. 

But if you think that this is a situation that can be solved by holding hands and having peace talks, then I'm sorry, I wish it were. But, savage murders can't be reasoned with. 

And why did you mention Bosnia? We went to war as the option to stop ethnic cleansing, so I can't see your point. That situation wasn't that complicated either. Bad guy about to kill millions. Stop him with force. Then leave. Nothing complicated about it.

Oh, I just became aware of the fact that you probably don't keep up with the progress of the military. The US special forces have come a long, long way since the days of Rwanda. And they're already on the ground waiting for orders. And they're itching to fight ISIS. They're just being held back to just protecting American interests. 

I can't believe though Nick that you're proposing that we do nothing and just let ISIS trample over the middle east because "it's complicated.".


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 30, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Aug 30 said:


> > Read Richard Clarke's book or Lawrence Wright's book and tell me we had our eye on the ball.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, and Clarke was on TV Sunday warning about how the Obama administration have to take this very seriously and act decisively, something our Professor-in-Chief is not always so good at.


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## chimuelo (Aug 30, 2014)

We finally get what we voted for from a President, and now when he's closing on the finish line, on the only thing he's done right, and is expected to come up with a strategy...? 
Strategists is why we got ourselves in trouble the last time, and with the help from the same paid media Parrots.
We got the sky, they got the ground, if they choose to stay in their palaces and Mosques, so be it.
The Commander In Cletes is doing just fine.

With every new fundraiser and round of Golf, more people I despise grow angrier, I am actually watching the various Cable networks just for the sake of revenge.
Warm and Fuzzies along with Evangelicals quoting Revelations are red faced.
I'm loving it, and yes I still feel sad for the innocent people these tough guys are killing, and we saved many of them. But that was the original plan all along, let us not deviate from it this time.

Break out the Camels, Lambos, and Bugati's, etc.
And get back to composing, turn your anger into a dissonant masterpiece, don't let a bad emotion go to waste.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 30, 2014)

chimuelo @ Sat Aug 30 said:


> And get back to composing, turn your anger into a dissonant masterpiece, don't let a bad emotion go to waste.



I'm not an angry person, but I thought this statement was eloquent and sensible, and I agree with the parts of it that aren't parody.

I am somewhat of a churner though, even in situations I can't affect- and I don't seek serenity, just justice. Since that's in short supply in the world, I start threads that will drive people as crazy as I drive myself.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 30, 2014)

> act decisively, something our Professor-in-Chief is not always so good at



You sound like Faux News, not Jay Asher.

Sort of a teabag comment, really. Anti-intellectual.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 30, 2014)

No equivocation for Nicky B!


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## José Herring (Aug 30, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Aug 30 said:


> > act decisively, something our Professor-in-Chief is not always so good at
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Got to agree there. I personally appreciate a president that thinks before leaping when lives are at stake.


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 30, 2014)

juliansader @ Sat Aug 30 said:


> It really frustrates and worries me when people say things like "The truth is that this increasingly brutal and dangerous battle will not be won for our "western values" but for the universal values which underpin and unite all the world's great religions and philosophies – including, perhaps especially at this moment, Islam." and "I happen to believe that what is happening in the Middle East at the moment is a convulsion which will, in due course, play itself out as ordinary Muslims recapture their religion for its true values."
> 
> I wonder, has Paddy actually read the Quran? Or the hadith?



Or The Bible. You can quote all those books and get blood curdling results. Yet Christianity (which admittedly I know a lot more about than the other major world faiths) is, today, largely a peaceful faith which has values of giving to the poor etc (hasten to add - there are exceptions). That is what Paddy Ashdown is referring to. Moderate Muslims are horrified by ISIS et al, but by loading terminology we damage the critical notion of working alongside these people. "Western values" can mean very different things if your country was illegally invaded in a search for non-existent WMDs, or - perhaps more insidiously - if you look at the underbelly of capitalism's free market consequences. Or indeed at issues like the casual sexualisation of marketing. It's not a wise term to use in that context - you can inadvertently and needlessly alienate those who share your concern.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 30, 2014)

"Teabagger"- Maher insult. Sort of like "libtard" from the right. Name calling=intellectual?

"Anti-intellectual". _Definition- someone who disagrees with my position_ (which makes them wrong, of course.)


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## NYC Composer (Aug 30, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Sun Aug 31 said:


> juliansader @ Sat Aug 30 said:
> 
> 
> > It really frustrates and worries me when people say things like "The truth is that this increasingly brutal and dangerous battle will not be won for our "western values" but for the universal values which underpin and unite all the world's great religions and philosophies – including, perhaps especially at this moment, Islam." and "I happen to believe that what is happening in the Middle East at the moment is a convulsion which will, in due course, play itself out as ordinary Muslims recapture their religion for its true values."
> ...



We need a LOT of statements from prominent moderate Muslim leaders who will go on the record in the mainstream press, decrying and unequivocally rejecting this band of bloody pirates. Sadly, those articles aren't as sexy as "ISIS executes 35" or "ISIS enslaves and sells women into slavery."


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 31, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Sat Aug 30 said:


> If I had to guess about the immediate future, I'd say this:
> 
> 1. Continuing targeted airstrikes
> 2. Frantic building of coalitions within and without Iraq and Syria, trying to involve Arab nations as fully as possible.
> ...



1-3 sound good to me. And Jose is arguing 3 too, I see - chances are many if us would actually agree on much of all this. There's been little talk that I've heard anyway about the UN Security Council. I guess the problem there is that the US and UK blew it last time by doing what they wanted when the council said no (rightly, IMO). I strongly agree with you, Larry, that getting Muslim leaders on board is critical. 

As for Obama "sitting on his hands", that does sound like the Fox-mandated opposite to "charge in all guns blazing without thinking first". The problem is pressing, but not so critical that we don't have time to think first. As Jose said, ISIS are actually in retreat right now I believe. Doesn't mean we do nothing, does mean we think first, like we didn't last time and led us into this current horror.

No 4 - I don't know enough of the US situation to know, but in the UK we're already discussing sweeping new powers that might well be counterproductive (see Paddy Ashdown's response). Folks like Jay - and there are many millions of them - are scared to death and want any old action that sounds reassuring NOW, so any crazy law might pass. If the orgs need funding to genuinely do their jobs then fine of course, but not as an excuse to ever-expand to have ever-greater-control over every aspect of our lives (ironically what the right wing accuse the government of doing).


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## NYC Composer (Aug 31, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Sun Aug 31 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sat Aug 30 said:
> 
> 
> > If I had to guess about the immediate future, I'd say this:
> ...



I'm with ya, Guy. My #1-4 was a compendium of what I believe is happening now/will happen. Believe me, here we have plenty of ops money assigned now- I think they will expand it anyway. As to civil liberties in the U.S., most of them were suspended by "The Patriot Act" , and little has changed since.

Strategy-wise , I see it this way- the next thing that blows up (literally) here or in Europe will swiftly change the politics and public opinion, and not towards more moderation. I've seen this movie before.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 31, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Aug 30 said:


> > act decisively, something our Professor-in-Chief is not always so good at
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There is a time for "on the other hand" and their is a time for decisive leadership. Obama has many strengths, but sadly he has fallen short during his stint in the leadership department. He is smart, thoughtful, and good hearted, but he is just not a leader.

In life as well as politics, you need to be able to look at "your people" and yourself, and be honest about strengths and shortcomings.

I firmly believe that had Hillary Clinton been our president that while she no doubt would have made mistakes, as all presidents do, she would have been more of a leader.


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## AC986 (Aug 31, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Aug 31 said:


> I firmly believe that had Hillary Clinton been our president that while she no doubt would have made mistakes, as all presidents do, she would have been more of a leader.



This was the BIG mistake of course. The amount of times we have had a vote for a leader of a party (in this case the democrats) and the assholes doing the voting put in the wrong guy is innumerable.


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 31, 2014)

Jay - what would have Obama doing now beyond the airstrikes and humanitarian support to the oppressed as he weighs up the other options? And bonus question - do you think Dubya was a strong leader for ignoring the UN Security Council who found no evidence of WMDs?


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## AC986 (Aug 31, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Sun Aug 31 said:


> Jay - what would have Obama doing now beyond the airstrikes and humanitarian support to the oppressed as he weighs up the other options? And bonus question - do you think Dubya was a strong leader for ignoring the UN Security Council who found no evidence of WMDs?



Guy that's loaded. You could say that about anyone.

Tony Blair? Gordon Brown? John Major? Neil Kinnock? Ted Heath? Catherine Ashton?????
Ed Milliband????????????David Cameron????????????????????????????Nick Clegg. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 

And on and on.


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 31, 2014)

Indeed you could. And?

I have a huge problem with the "strong leader" nonsense. Sorry to invoke Godwin's Law, but Hitler was one helluva strong leader. Personally I'd take a wise leader over a "strong" one any day.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 31, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Sun Aug 31 said:


> Indeed you could. And?
> 
> I have a huge problem with the "strong leader" nonsense. Sorry to invoke Godwin's Law, but Hitler was one helluva strong leader. Personally I'd take a wise leader over a "strong" one any day.



Strong and wise are not antithetical. There are countless examples of leaders who were both. 

Anyway, I used the term decisive, not strong and they are not synonymous.


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## chimuelo (Aug 31, 2014)

Best Band Leader I ever worked for once told me the nicest thing about being a leader is letting others decide. They pat themselves on the back and you take the credit.

The advantages are plain as day too, as we know what Putin is doing in the Black Sea, Syria and the Med.
We also know what ISIS/O/IL is doing.

They still don't know what everyone else is doing. That's an advantage.

Several thousand 200 dollar bombs could cripple Putins 2 Trillion dollar economy for the cost of 40-50,000 bucks.
If the Ukraine is going to be cold this winter, why allow energy to flow across your land and see cash going back to the guys trying to kill you...?

Blow the Pipelines into Europe.

It's these type of actions we will be seeing very soon and I can't believe Putin is being so careless. If you are going to invade Ukraine, go big or go home. There's 45 million people there who think he's a piece of shit.

Besides a true Liberal always uses other peoples money.
So use other peoples troops.


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 31, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Sun Aug 31 said:


> Jay - what would have Obama doing now beyond the airstrikes and humanitarian support to the oppressed as he weighs up the other options? And bonus question - do you think Dubya was a decisive leader for ignoring the UN Security Council who found no evidence of WMDs?



Jay - my bad on strong / decisive, though the distinction is a fine one. Questions rephrased in this quote for your response when you have a mo.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 31, 2014)

No W screwed it up big time. His father did it the right way. Obama could have followed his example but because he drew "red lines" for Syria and was unable to convince even his fellow Democrats in Congress to act, people in that part of the world no longer trust the US to be there for them. So Assad allowed isis to flourish and now if we confront them in Syria, as we need to do, ironically we will help Assad. 

Even Diane Feinstein was obliquely criticizing Obama for taking too long to act this morning on Meet The Press this morning.


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 31, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Aug 31 said:


> No Worries screwed it up big time. His father did it the right way. Obama could have followed his example but because he drew "red lines" for Syria and was unable to convince even his fellow Democrats in Congress to act, people in that part of the world no longer trust the US to be there for them. So Assad allowed isis to flourish and now if we confront them in Syria, as we need to do, ironically we will help Assad.
> 
> Even Diane Feinstein was obliquely criticizing Obama for taking too long to act this morning on Meet The Press this morning.



Too long to act... to do what, specifically? This always seems to be the sticking point...


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 31, 2014)

I already answered this. Do what the first Bush did, if you can, but it may be too late to do that.


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 31, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Aug 31 said:


> I already answered this. Do what the first Bush did, if you can, but it may be too late to do that.



Ah. Nuance. Now there's a thing...


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 31, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Sun Aug 31 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sun Aug 31 said:
> 
> 
> > I already answered this. Do what the first Bush did, if you can, but it may be too late to do that.
> ...



It is a simple fact. Obama did not build those coalitions when he needed to,. I hope it isn't too late but I worry that it is.


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 31, 2014)

Well I can't pretend to know what sort of alliances Obama has or hasn't made - would be intetested in knowing more actually. But I definitely agree that the alliances you make are more indicative of positive leadership than making quick decisions in complex foreign policy.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 31, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Sun Aug 31 said:


> Well I can't pretend to know what sort of alliances Obama has or hasn't made - would be intetested in knowing more actually. But I definitely agree that the alliances you make are more indicative of positive leadership than making quick decisions in complex foreign policy.



Which, to his credit, Obama doesn't seem to be doing (as has been said earlier.)


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## chimuelo (Aug 31, 2014)

Relax guys.
The election is in November.
I already seen this show before, sometime in early September we will start hearing how ISIS has turned tail back to Syria.

Then as a bonus, the racist white cop in Ferguson will be indicted by Eric Holders Just Us department for minorities and atheists.

Even though the ST. Louis half black judicial system will not indict, Holder will, as that is the plan to try and save democrats who run from the president just to have more redistribution time.
Trouble is the cop will be set free after the election, the Brown family will have been of some use for Holder/Sharpton/Jackson Civil Rights Industry.

Then the GOP will bring us a single payer system, 
bomb Russians and ISIS,
find a cure for Ebola, 
open the Pipeline, 

The economy will boom and Obama can take credit for his legacy already being written in Californian text books for future warm and fuzzy kids.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 31, 2014)

Larry, let's try and pipe down a little bit if you don't mind.

Jay wrote:



> There is a time for "on the other hand" and their is a time for decisive leadership. Obama has many strengths, but sadly he has fallen short during his stint in the leadership department. He is smart, thoughtful, and good hearted, but he is just not a leader.
> 
> In life as well as politics, you need to be able to look at "your people" and yourself, and be honest about strengths and shortcomings.
> 
> I firmly believe that had Hillary Clinton been our president that while she no doubt would have made mistakes, as all presidents do, she would have been more of a leader.




There's some valid criticism in there, no question. Every time I've been disheartened with Obama, he's made conciliatory Republican arguments or tried to reason with the dickheads instead of selling his vision (which also happens to be mine). That doesn't prevent the dickheads from suing him for doing his job, of course, but that's a tangent.


This situation is something different. Being "decisive" - meaning shooting from the hip - is not the way to deal with this problem. Today's Fareed Zacharia program had some good insights into how complicated this is. It's worth watching if you didn't - or the first part is (it deteriorated when the Israeli guy sent me back to sleep).


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## AC986 (Aug 31, 2014)

Hillary made the mistake of not saying change or welfare enough times during the hustings.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 31, 2014)

Once again, Nick, when a Democratic president is taking equal criticism from Democrats like Feinstein as well as Republicans, guys like Richard Clarke and former generals for not being on top of it enough, only the most partisan, like you, will not at least take a look at it.


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## José Herring (Aug 31, 2014)

People have such short memories it sometimes annoys me. Do what the first Bush did? Do you not remember that it took a solid year to build up the coalition and to place troops before the first attack on Iraq? ONE YEAR! and we knew what we were facing.

Here's a new threat and people are jumping down Obama's throat to act decisively after a month. 

It takes time to mount an offensive. His first plan for bombings is working brilliantly. ISIS is on the run and pulling back. Which he implemented almost immediately. I'd say that's pretty decisive.

The President of the US isn't God over the world. Can't just snap his fingers and make ISIS magically go away.


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 31, 2014)

What Jose said.

I'll leave it for others to comment on whether Obama is getting equal stick from Democrats and Republicans rather than lone troublemakers - in the UK I'm not so up with that. If it's true I'd be gobsmacked. If it is true, the Democrats need a communal heavy slap.


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 31, 2014)

Huge apologies for yet another Guardian op ed (too much holiday reading here), but this looks at some of the reasons why the UK in particular turns a blind eye to so many hideous Middle Eastern regimes (hint - it's usually money). Again, the west is complicit in creating or maintaining the right conditions for groups like ISIS to thrive.

http://gu.com/p/4x6j3


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## germancomponist (Aug 31, 2014)

josejherring @ Sun Aug 31 said:


> The President of the US isn't God over the world. Can't just snap his fingers and make ISIS magically go away.



+1!


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## AC986 (Aug 31, 2014)

One thing that people who work for Primark hate more than anything is air strikes.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 31, 2014)

Jay, you're name-dropping instead of brain-using. What I won't take a look at is knee-jerk reactions that aren't worth looking at!

Jose is right. And just showing them his penis won't make them go away either.


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## germancomponist (Aug 31, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Aug 31 said:


> Jose is right. And just showing them his penis won't make them go away either.



Well said, Nick!


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## NYC Composer (Aug 31, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Aug 31 said:


> Larry, let's try and pipe down a little bit if you don't mind.



Nick-The minute you temper the tone of your rhetoric, I'll stop commenting on it. I'm not a child, so it's highly unlikely I'll ever "pipe down." Sorry.


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## AC986 (Aug 31, 2014)

Gunther WTF??? :lol: 

Larry I love knee jerk reactions personally. Jerks in general actually.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 31, 2014)

Never would have guessed, Adrian :wink:


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## chimuelo (Aug 31, 2014)

I often wondered if these martyr's were bummed when they got to heaven and realized the only virgins there were Lesbians that never got laid while on Earth..?

Being outnumbered 72 to 1, those odds suck.

Which is why when I gamble I pray to all of the Gods, one of them is bound to answer.
Better odds all of the way around, and if you win a few large, the waittail cocktresses sometimes work after hours too.


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## germancomponist (Aug 31, 2014)

What news channels can we trust today? 

That's the real question!


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## rpaillot (Aug 31, 2014)

http://www.newsweek.com/16-french-citiz ... nds-266795

Really ashamed to be French. 

16 %.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 31, 2014)

rpaillot @ Sun Aug 31 said:


> http://www.newsweek.com/16-french-citizens-support-isis-poll-finds-266795
> 
> Really ashamed to be French.
> 
> 16 %.



I find that statistic very hard to believe, and I have to wonder how the study was conducted. If it's true, it's truly alarming, along with various polls about the rise of anti-Semitism.


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## JohnG (Aug 31, 2014)

I agree with Jose. Hasty action causes death and disaster, not to mention being ruinously expensive.

We spent at least $1 trillion, killed hundreds of thousands of people, wrecked the (admittedly nasty) balance of power between Iraq and Iran by initiating a hasty action in the past.

Since then, Cheney and his gang have insisted that "all the western intelligence agencies agreed that Iraq had WMD." Except that's totally untrue. The Germans, for instance, doubted the intelligence provided by "Speedball," one of the chief sources for a lot of it, and were unconvinced.

It is spectacularly ironic that the Republicans continue to talk about Obama's lack of "leadership" when their entire agenda seems to be to undermine him, no matter what.

If leadership means avoiding another disastrous intervention in a complicated situation that is poorly understood by many, then I'll take it.


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## RiffWraith (Aug 31, 2014)

rpaillot @ Mon Sep 01 said:


> http://www.newsweek.com/16-french-citizens-support-isis-poll-finds-266795
> 
> Really ashamed to be French.
> 
> 16 %.



I tend to dismiss polls like these - the ones that do not reveal the demographic of those who were polled. What percentage of Muslims were polled? And this was done entirely by telephone? Furthermore, I wouldn't put too much stock in a poll put forth by a news agency which was founded by a decree of the Russian president Vladimir Putin (Wikipedia). The whole thing seems a bit shady to me.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 31, 2014)

JohnG @ Sun Aug 31 said:


> I agree with Jose. Hasty action causes death and disaster, not to mention being ruinously expensive.
> 
> We spent at least $1 trillion, killed hundreds of thousands of people, wrecked the (admittedly nasty) balance of power between Iraq and Iran by initiating a hasty action in the past.
> 
> ...



Totally agree. Bush was lauded for being "decisive"- as if making lousy decisions time and again makes one a good leader. Bizarre reasoning.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 31, 2014)

> ck-The minute you temper the tone of your rhetoric, I'll stop commenting on it. I'm not a child, so it's highly unlikely I'll ever "pipe down." Sorry.



Larry, I was kidding when I told you to pipe down.

But frankly I really don't need you to tell me to temper my rhetoric, thank you very much. If I want to call Jay - who's a friend - unintellectual for calling Obama professor-in-chief - it's my business, not yours. He and I get into spirited arguments and neither of us is about to stop.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 31, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Sep 01 said:


> > ck-The minute you temper the tone of your rhetoric, I'll stop commenting on it. I'm not a child, so it's highly unlikely I'll ever "pipe down." Sorry.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hmm. Yeah, ok. Ya eschew the emoticons, ya take yer chances on being taken seriously.

To the second, ok. Fair point. I'll butt out of that, even if it does remind me "JANE, YOU IGNORANT SLUT."


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## rpaillot (Aug 31, 2014)

RiffWraith @ Sun Aug 31 said:


> rpaillot @ Mon Sep 01 said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.newsweek.com/16-french-citizens-support-isis-poll-finds-266795
> ...



Apparently ,poll was done by ICM research which's not a newbie in survey.
Moreover, if you look at the rates for U.K

http://www.icmresearch.com/data/media/pdf/New%20EU%20Members-Combined-July%202014-V3.pdf (http://www.icmresearch.com/data/media/p ... 014-V3.pdf)

2 % are very favorable and 7 % somewhat favorable, thats 9 % . Much less than FR.


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## AC986 (Sep 1, 2014)

rpaillot @ Sun Aug 31 said:


> http://www.newsweek.com/16-french-citizens-support-isis-poll-finds-266795
> 
> Really ashamed to be French.
> 
> 16 %.



Don't be. They're no more French than I am.


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## AC986 (Sep 1, 2014)

Larry will you Jewish people stop arguing amongst yourselves FFS!!. It's like standing upstairs in a synagogue. (o)


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## NYC Composer (Sep 1, 2014)

adriancook @ Mon Sep 01 said:


> Larry will you Jewish people stop arguing amongst yourselves FFS!!. It's like standing upstairs in a synagogue. (o)



Fish gotta swim, birds gotta fly, Jews gotta argue.


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## chimuelo (Sep 1, 2014)

Polls. 
They are used to move a minority opinion into the spotlight at best.

In the States media moguls often poll people, but I never once received a survey or poll, have a land line, registered at the County Surveyors office as a contractor, DMV as a voter, and have been summoned to jury duty 3 times, but never polled.

I did receive some DNC/GOP surveys in the mail on issues like having Spanish as a second language, and I responded with "Simone Essay."

Can't say I agree with such a poll when France was first to fight in Libya, Mali and polls for that iirc were at 60%.
I guess this is Putins' poll to try and get a nation that builds his Aircraft Carriers divided more.
It works well here in the USA using race, wealth, etc.
He's learning the way of the wealthy redistributor. 

And speaking of wealthy redistributors, the Mayor of Chicago recently announced he was hiring 23,000 Latinos to Government jobs, not even considering Great Society Neighborhood folks or mixed races, whites, Indians, Jews, or Asians.

I'm quite sure he will buy a pollster too, then poll the Latino community only and post results.

More Liberal racism designed to gravel a certain voting base.
Guess he figures they got the great society neighborhoods wrapped up, so bring millions more from great society neighborhoods in Mexico and Central America, that should keep them in office for another decade.

We should poll ISIS and see what they think about Cruelty to animals, and if they want Obama to get a 3rd term, etc.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 1, 2014)

Nick, when John Williams talks about scoring and posts an opinion you don't agree with, you should perhaps reconsider.

When Conrad Pope talks about orchestration and posts an opinion you don't agree with, you should perhaps reconsider.

When men and women of the calibre of Clarke, JaneHarmon (a Demorcat) and Feinstein (a Democrat) talks the need to act decisively NOW an opinion you don't agree with, you should perhaps reconsider.

What is really anti-intellectual to be so married to your point of view that you will not even stop and consider whether there isn ot merit to the point of view of people with far more experience and knowledge than you. It is not name dropping, it is learning from others who know more. 

You should perhaps try it some time


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## Guy Rowland (Sep 1, 2014)

And yet, Jay, you've said yourself it's too late for easy snap action here. Sorry it I keep misunderstanding you, but I still don't see what good real world quick decisive action Obama isn't taking. I see only complex, partial, difficult options that, if taken with both conviction and care, may produce a better outcome in time. Terrible soundbite, that.

Still keen to hear others chime in on the democrat's response to Obama. Is Jay stretching a point or have the democrats lost their minds?


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 1, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Mon Sep 01 said:


> And yet, Jay, you've said yourself it's too late for easy snap action here. Sorry it I keep misunderstanding you, but I still don't see what good real world quick decisive action Obama isn't taking. I see only complex, partial, difficult options that, if taken with both conviction and care, may produce a better outcome in time. Terrible soundbite, that.
> 
> Still keen to hear others chime in on the democrat's response to Obama. Is Jay stretching a point or have the democrats lost their minds?



How about this for a start?
http://theweek.com/article/index/267272 ... -beat-isis


I do think Obama is finally moving in that direction. What is alarming is what Clarke addresses here: 
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2014/08/richard-clarke-calls-obama-wrong-on (http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/20 ... a-wrong-on) -worlds-dangers/


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## Guy Rowland (Sep 1, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Sep 01 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Mon Sep 01 said:
> 
> 
> > And yet, Jay, you've said yourself it's too late for easy snap action here. Sorry it I keep misunderstanding you, but I still don't see what good real world quick decisive action Obama isn't taking. I see only complex, partial, difficult options that, if taken with both conviction and care, may produce a better outcome in time. Terrible soundbite, that.
> ...



Yes, looks fairly sensible, but confused - the article agrees with my point not yours? It explicitly says a rush to war is a bad idea. It says time and care must be taken.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 1, 2014)

"Decisive" does not mean rushing to war Guy. It means starting a course of action that is clearly defined and putting the necessary ingredients in place.

This is the lesson of the two President Bushes: the first did so and succeeded, the second did not and therefore did not succeed.

Here is a prediction, and it will bring me no satisfaction if it is what happens: the Brits will be hit badly before the US. You have a fair number of people there who think Sharia law is just dandy, like Anjem Choudary.


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## Guy Rowland (Sep 1, 2014)

So.... Again... What specifically should he be doing? I keep asking and all I get is vague stuff that amounts to "ya know, something". I'm not as big a fan of Bush 1 as you, even if he looks like Socrates compared to Bush 2 (the sequel is always louder and dumber after all). But this situation isn't the same as either, of course.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 1, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Mon Sep 01 said:


> So.... Again... What specifically should he be doing? I keep asking and all I get is vague stuff that amounts to "ya know, something". I'm not as big a fan of Bush 1 as you, even if he looks like Socrates compared to Bush 2 (the sequel is always louder and dumber after all). But this situation isn't the same as either, of course.



The article I poste is posted is not vague. Apparently, you either do not or choose not to understand it.

Personally, Guy, I think you are going to look smashing in a salwar kameez.


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## Guy Rowland (Sep 1, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Sep 01 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Mon Sep 01 said:
> 
> 
> > So.... Again... What specifically should he be doing? I keep asking and all I get is vague stuff that amounts to "ya know, something". I'm not as big a fan of Bush 1 as you, even if he looks like Socrates compared to Bush 2 (the sequel is always louder and dumber after all). But this situation isn't the same as either, of course.
> ...



I understand that it describes care, difficulty and nuance. You persist with this bizarre myth that Obama is sitting on his hands, yet simultaneously approvingly point to articles that almost entirely describe what he is doing. Again and again you decry that he is slow to act, yet that is exactly what is required in this case

In case I am going mad, I'd be delighted if someone else can explain this apparent contradiction, maybe I am just being thick, but the posts from John, Jose, Larry and many others here seem to also be missing your point.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 1, 2014)

obama went on worldwide TV and said that we did not yet have a plan and that we are more safe than twenty years ago. Did you even bother to watch what Clarke said about that?


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## José Herring (Sep 1, 2014)

Jay you're arguing in circles because you're basing your information on people that aren't even in the loop and are speculating on what plans Obama has or doesn't have without having any real information.

I can understand why Clarke is doing it. He wants to still think he's relevant. I can't understand why Feinstein is doing it. She's be making some bizarre moves lately and it's not clear why to me. She lost my trust when she said that it was alright for the NSA to spy on Americans but when she found out the CIA was spying on her she went insane over the idea. 

What ever the pres is doing or not doing one things is certain, he's not sharing it with either Clarke or Feinstein.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 1, 2014)

Did you hear what Hagel said before they walked it back? Is he relevant enough for you?


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## José Herring (Sep 1, 2014)

Other than Hagel saying that ISIS has grown beyond any threat we've ever seen, which I think most people agree with, no I'm not aware of anything else that he said.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 1, 2014)

josejherring @ Mon Sep 01 said:


> Other than Hagel saying that ISIS has grown beyond any threat we've ever seen, which I think most people agree with, no I'm not aware of anything else that he said.


It was his clear implication of urgency that certainly did not convey that didn't jibe with our being more safe than twenty years to. 

Pre 9/11 there were clear indications of what was potentially coming and it feels to me that the timing for this group, who have more money and scarily more who apparently approve or at least sympathize with them, that many have been lulled into an unwise sense of security. 

I really hope I am wrong.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 1, 2014)

Note that Dianne Feinstein and Jane Harmon have historically been big hawks, Jay. People like me don't reflexively agree with everything just because it's said by Democrats. 

And I'm not the one refusing to see opposing points of view! It's easy to say "kill kill kill." Everyone is so ready to rush into this blindly.

It's not like Obama said "I'm a wimp so please kick me in the ass," he said this is a complicated situation with no quick fix and we need to approach it intelligently. That's the point of view I don't see you considering!

Richard Clarke is a security expert and I've been very impressed by what he had to say in the past. I haven't heard him talk about ISIS, but if he's saying we need to rush into this blindly and unilaterally, I disagree.

But if John Williams says that, okay, then we should.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 1, 2014)

Watch the clip with Clarke for crying out loud already and instead of mischaracterizing his position you will know what it actually is. And btw can we please get past the hawk/ dove nonsense. Some situations require a military response and others do you. When I see those vapid "War is not the answer" bumper stickers I want to yell "It depends on the question." 

Only a child or a moron believes that there was any other answer in some cases.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 1, 2014)

War is never the answer - to any question. That doesn't mean it never happens, but it's a total failure. Violence is as clear a sign of failure as there is.

And no we can't get past the hawk/dove nonsense, because it's not nonsense. There are lots of people - like Dianne Feinstein and especially Jane Harman (whose head I've seen talking too much about this) - who are far too trigger happy. Hawks are like that. They believe we need to show how big our muscles are, and if we don't do that constantly then it creates a power vacuum. William Cohen is a great example, and it scares me when people say what he says calmly.

Being a dove is far safer, if you have to choose a prejudice. But no, I'm not a pacifist - sometimes things are settled by force.

Do you have a link to the clip? I didn't find it.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 1, 2014)

War was the only answer to Hitler unless you were willing to have all of Europe under Nazi rule. You cannot be as naive as to not see that.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 1, 2014)

That's not what I'm saying, Jay.

I'm saying war is a failure. It usually means someone miscalculated, or someone is using power badly.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 1, 2014)

You said it represented failure because it was violent. I cannot fathom how you got to the age you are without understanding that violence is a basic component of human nature and that we may eventually evolve we can't pretend it is not so.


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## G.R. Baumann (Sep 1, 2014)

https://www.project-syndicate.org/c...d-europe-to-allow-the-region-to-govern-itself


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## RiffWraith (Sep 1, 2014)

G.R. Baumann @ Tue Sep 02 said:


> https://www.project-syndicate.org/c...d-europe-to-allow-the-region-to-govern-itself



He is right to a degree - but he is leaving something significant out of the conversation. Bigger than oil, bigger than Israel's right to exist, bigger than a Palestinian state, bigger than relations with this country and that country. He is leaving out what is, IMHO, the most important thing of all. Nukes. What happens when the USA, GB, and other NATO countries say, "ok - it's hands off from now on. We are getting out of the region completely - we will leave it to you people", and several years later, the Caliphate state of, say - Iraq - which is run by what is now ISIS - not only gets hold of some nuclear warheads, but gains the technology to build ICBMs that can reach the USA? And then what happens if they actually launch one at us, and GB? Then what?

I would love to get out of there, and leave everyone to their own devices. But for a region that has a propensity for perpetual violence, can we afford to do that at this juncture?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 1, 2014)

> You said it represented failure because it was violent.



I said that? Wow. I'm pretty smart!



> I cannot fathom how you got to the age you are without understanding that violence is a basic component of human nature and that we may eventually evolve we can't pretend it is not so.



Well, you're arguing with a pacifist who isn't me.

But actually I've always disagreed with the idea that our species needs to evolve for us to avoid war. You and I and everyone we know controls the beast within every day of our lives.

That's why I say it's a failure when people resort to violence - on a small scale (when it's called "crime") or on a large scale.

In this case it's a failure of policy in a very desperate region. This stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum - not with ISIS or with the conditions that led to Hitler going insane.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 1, 2014)

Hitler was insane, fine but what about all the others who collaborated? All insane? 
TThere are evil people and sometimes the best and only answer is war and resorting to it is not a failure, it is recognition of what you are dealing with.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 1, 2014)

Well, your side of the argument is a semantic difference. Mine is that it requires desperate circumstances in combination with other failures for all order to collapse like that.

It's happened time and time again throughout history.


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## José Herring (Sep 1, 2014)

Jay, here's what happens when you leap into the area without thinking it through.

http://countercurrentnews.com/2014/06/i ... hn-mccain/


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## Guy Rowland (Sep 2, 2014)

josejherring @ Tue Sep 02 said:


> Jay, here's what happens when you leap into the area without thinking it through.
> 
> http://countercurrentnews.com/2014/06/i ... hn-mccain/



Exactly. Exactly, exactly, exactly.

So (cos I'm in the UK and not up with the minutiae of domestic US politics) - is a fair summary of the Democrat reaction that there are a handful of vocal hawks who what more, any, action now, but the rest of the party is OK with how Obama is proceeding?

We're very round in circles at this point. Folks like Jay want more action, but when probed can't come up with that that action should be. Jay in particular talks about no rush to war and links approvingly to pieces urging caution and building alliances so I just don't get what he's saying at all. Apart from links to those lengthy, complex processes, I haven't heard one single practical step that Obama should be taking right now that we can all see and approve of that he isn't.

So what's going on?

The last Iraq fiasco caused more problems than the relatively obvious Middle Eastern disintegration. Remember Shock and Awe? Who can forget. That's now imprinted into our minds as to what "action" looks like. Or those pictures from Gaza showing devastation:







...and remember folks, "we don't target civilians. Pinpoint strikes".

There, that's what decisive action looks like. With a huge innocent civilian body count, thousands of wounded and displaced homeless families for scores of years. That's what the American people - some subconsciously - want to see, the Hollywood version of decisive action. Overwhelming firepower and strength, regardless of whether or not it is aimed at the right people.

What does diplomacy with fragile allies look like? What does determining safe allies look like? Where's the image for that?


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## AC986 (Sep 2, 2014)

josejherring @ Mon Sep 01 said:


> Jay, here's what happens when you leap into the area without thinking it through.



And for the 50th time Obama and Cameron months later were going to bomb Assad's Syria. :roll: 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. You need to understand these things at the time that they're happening. Not months later.

Good picture there Guy! I feel a video game coming on.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 2, 2014)

So for those like Guy who apparently are incapable of reading an article and digesting what it says:

1. Have an extensive air campaign. It looks like we are in fact seeing the beginning of that but it should have been planned for and began a long time ago.

2, Form "a combined ground force operating within a strategic political framework premised on a power-sharing solution. Such an agreement is far off."

3. Form a regional alliance with Middle Eastern nations that are just as worried about ISI as we are, like Saudi Arabia, Turkey and even Iran, whose Shia population is worried about the Sunni extremists.

4. Include European commitments. After all, the next 9/11 is every bit as likely yto come o London, Paris, or Hamburg.

And since apparently nobody is willing to take the two minutes it takes to watch what Richard Clarke said, "
By ABC News
Aug 31, 2014 12:14pm

ABC News’ Adam Teicholz and Kari Rea report:
President Obama is “wrong” to downplay the dangers facing the United States, longtime counterterrorism official and ABC News contributor Richard Clarke said in response to the president’s attempts to calm concern over the escalating threat from ISIS and turmoil in the Middle East.
Obama told an audience at a Democratic fundraiser in New York Friday that the “world has always been messy” but added, “I promise you things are much less dangerous now than they were 20 years ago, 25 years ago or 30 years ago.”
Clarke, appearing this morning on “This Week,” said simply, “I think he’s wrong.”
“We’re much more capable of defending ourselves now,” said Clarke, who served under both Presidents Bill Clinton and George W. Bush as the nation’s top counterterrorism adviser. “We have the Department of Homeland Security, we have a lot of resources going into counterterrorism, but the threat has also increased. And I think the threat has probably increased more than the defenses.”

Hagel, the Secretary of Defense, said that ISIS is "an imminent threat to every interest we have."

LOUIS FREEH, FBI DIRECTOR: They're coming back. They're coming back to Europe, they're coming back to North America.


Even Rachel Maddow, a very left-oriented commentator is complaining of Democratic "wussitude." We have potential regional partners with large Shia populations who are terrified of the Sunni extremists. We need to take a page from the 1st Bush and form regional alliances with Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and even Iran may go along on this one.

At least bring it to Congress for a vote.Make them go on record fora course of action.Stop acting as if time is on our side, it's not. The Brits just raised their terror alert and with good reason. Take ISIS at their word for it when they say that simply establishing a Caliphate in their area of the world is only the beginning of their ambitions.

Pretty much all this is what Kerry is saying as well but the President is the leader of the free world and it needs to come form him with a sense of urgency. Not panic, not ruishing headlong into anything, but urgency. To say ""we do not yet have a plan" was the wrong message and to say that we are more safe now than 20 years ago understates what is going on.

Once again, I truly hope I have to come back to this 1 year from now and say that I was wrong. I would be delighted to be wrong and say so.


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## José Herring (Sep 2, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Sep 02 said:


> So for those like Guy who apparently are incapable of reading an article and digesting what it says:
> 
> 1. Have an extensive air campaign. It looks like we are in fact seeing the beginning of that but it should have been planned for and began a long time ago.
> 
> ...



All this is already happening. Airstrikes started almost immediately. We're at 225 sorties. We've already formed an alliance with the Kurds. Iran offered to work with us, we refused. Assad offered to work with us, we refused. The Syrian rebels offered to work with us, not sure where we are on that. The Saudis will probably align with us. Iraq is already align with us. ect..

European alliances take time.

So, basically you're basing your criticism of Obama can't be decisive on 4 points that are already happening. Jeez. That's what happens when you listen to "critics" and don't look at the facts yourself.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 2, 2014)

No I am basing it on the belief that had Obama been more decisive and actually started this coalition building after he drew his "red line" maybe our allies would have come together with us a lot sooner to take action and prevent ISIS from getting the foothold in Iraq from a safe Syrian base in the first place.

The only worse thing than a threat is an empty threat.


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## TheUnfinished (Sep 2, 2014)

An alliance with Saudi Arabia would be an intriguing twist, given how much money has been pumped into Al Qaeda and ISIS from there.


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## JohnG (Sep 2, 2014)

Very true. Saudi Arabia is mostly Sunni. ISIS is Sunni. Nearly all the 9/11 folk were Saudis.

One of the reasons it's kind of tricky to understand what's really going on.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 2, 2014)

Well the basic thing to understand is that despite the House of Saud trying to buy themselves immunization form the radicals by paying them, they are rightfully scared of being replaced by a more theocratic group. ISIS is a real threat to them.


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## chimuelo (Sep 2, 2014)

Hey Jay,
If you want to really see what's going on behind the scenes you should read independent reporters for the AP and Rueters. Even Der Spiegel has reported Germany is supplying the Kurds with heavy armaments and night vision.

Just today reports from a Burke Class Destroyer supporting African troops is going after Al Shiska Bob.

The Pres is a SpecOps kind of guy and sent troops to Africa many times over the last 2 years, going after the butcher that uses children kidnapped as soldiers, and other whacko freak bags killing in the name of Allah.

Dig a little deeper. I am sure you might agree that Obama's foreign policy works much better than his adversaries want it to.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 2, 2014)

chimuelo @ Tue Sep 02 said:


> Hey Jay,
> If you want to really see what's going on behind the scenes you should read independent reporters for the AP and Rueters. Even Der Spiegel has reported Germany is supplying the Kurds with heavy armaments and night vision.
> 
> Just today reports from a Burke Class Destroyer supporting African troops is going after Al Shiska Bob.
> ...



OK, better late than never.


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## AC986 (Sep 2, 2014)

Very sorry to hear of the second American just now on the news.

Like I said, earlier, people that work for Primark really hate air strikes.

You need to go in on the ground now full force. If Obama doesn't act now on this then you really do have a beached whale on your hands. Cameron _is_ a beached whale and needs to be told what to do.


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## Dave Connor (Sep 2, 2014)

Not being any kind of military or geopolitical strategist I think it's curious that the day I heard that we weren't going to leave a residual force in Iraq (some Marines parked out in the desert completely outside of the Iraqi peoples purview) I predicted a total disintegration of Iraq. Not as bad as is actually has disintegrated but a calamity nonetheless. Why is that? How could we be that dumb and why didn't the President hang in until he got that agreement? You do understand that it is that exact agreement that is allowing American forces into Iraq presently? So don't tell me it just couldn't get done. We got that agreement within hours of asking for it this time around.

We have let major cities fall to ISIS and allowed men, woman and children to be butchered, beheaded and even crucified (good heavens who are these people?) Lots and lots of dead Iraqi's folks. There are people in the world more concerned about the lives of whales than has been shown towards these poor people. 

Why no contingency for this possibility? The possibility of the radical elements fighting in Syria simply pointing their vehicles towards Iraq? Our intelligence services have been glued to Syria for a very long time and warning the White House very explicitly. Anybody think that a major city in Iraq such as Mosul (where many American lives were lost) could be invaded and taken over by a foreign army with the U.S. having zero advance idea or 'caught by surprise'? Of course not. The American people themselves are under greater surveillance than that from our government. 

No, this is all policy blundering and inaction for reasons I can't even fathom. It's shameful and particularly so in light of the accusations that Americans had no respect for Iraqi lives in our previous wars which one would have to say is a valid charge. So now we have been proving it's true in the worst way: by not defending the very people we made vulnerable by destroying their ability to defend themselves. Everything being done by the U.S. now is pitifully weak and far too late.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 2, 2014)

Dave Connor @ Tue Sep 02 said:


> Not being any kind of military or geopolitical strategist I think it's curious that the day I heard that we weren't going to leave a residual force in Iraq (some Marines parked out in the desert completely outside of the Iraqi peoples purview) I predicted a total disintegration of Iraq.) Not as bad as is actually has disintegrated but a calamity nonetheless. Why is that? How could we be that dumb and why didn't the President hang in until he got that agreement? You do understand that is is that exact agreement that is allowing American forces into Iraq presently? So don't tell me it just couldn't get done. We got that agreement within hours of asking for this time around.
> 
> We have let major cities fall to ISIS and allowed men, woman and children to be butchered, beheaded and even crucified (good heavens who are these people?) Lots and lots of dead Iraqi's folks. There are people in the world more concerned about the lives of whales than has been shown towards these poor people.
> 
> ...



Yep.


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## AC986 (Sep 2, 2014)

When you hear that the people have had enough of all this fighting, believe me when I tell you your army, airforce and navy is absolutely dying to get over there. I mean really!!! Think about it for a second. What would you want to do after seeing this for a second time. I think it's adios muchachos now.


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## José Herring (Sep 2, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Sep 02 said:


> Dave Connor @ Tue Sep 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Not being any kind of military or geopolitical strategist I think it's curious that the day I heard that we weren't going to leave a residual force in Iraq (some Marines parked out in the desert completely outside of the Iraqi peoples purview) I predicted a total disintegration of Iraq.) Not as bad as is actually has disintegrated but a calamity nonetheless. Why is that? How could we be that dumb and why didn't the President hang in until he got that agreement? You do understand that is is that exact agreement that is allowing American forces into Iraq presently? So don't tell me it just couldn't get done. We got that agreement within hours of asking for this time around.
> ...



Nope. Poorly understood to say the least.

Iraq is suppose to be an independent nation. Not a ward or under the protection of the US.

Next you're going to take the right wing stance that Putin invading the Ukraine is Obama's fault too.

Jeez, you guys. And you're conveniently neglecting the fact that we're already bombing the hell out of them.


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## Dave Connor (Sep 2, 2014)

Jose you are going to have to make a far better case than that and address my points specifically.

When you say we are bombing the heck out of them - we are not. Also what good is that doing the countless dead people since it is so late in the game?

What good is an independent nation of dead people anyway?

Surely you're not saying that the protection of innocent lives is a 'right wing' idea?


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 2, 2014)

Dave Connor @ Tue Sep 02 said:


> Jose you are going to have to make a far better case than that and address my points specifically.
> 
> When you say we are booming the heck out of them - we are not. Also what good is that doing the countless dead people since it is so late in the game.
> 
> What good is an independent nation of dead people anyway?



The idea that Iraq is or has ever been a "nation" is a joke. It is three religious groups that hate each other that was only held together by the control of a ruthless dictator, just as was true of Yugoslavia under Tito.

Biden had it right when he suggested we allow it to break into 3 nations, for which he was ridiculed at the time.


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## José Herring (Sep 2, 2014)

Your points have gaping wholes of years of time passed. 

I'd have to spend too much of my time to refute every one.

But, I'll blow a whole in your first point.
_
"Not being any kind of military or geopolitical strategist I think it's curious that the day I heard that we weren't going to leave a residual force in Iraq (some Marines parked out in the desert completely outside of the Iraqi peoples purview) I predicted a total disintegration of Iraq. "_

Iraq had disintegrated long before we pulled out.

The first Bush rightfully so, stopped at deposing Sadam knowing that it would crumble the region.

The second Bush through the country into chaos and sectarian in fighting by deposing the only stable leader the country had. Hate him or not, he kept Iraq together.

ISIS is taking advantage of that situation. ISIS has been preparing for 4 years to do what they did. It took them 2 years to enact their plan after US forces pulled out.

I would spend more time, but it's my anniversary.

But you're connecting dots that are years apart. Blaming any one president for the mess in Iraq is just pure hogwash. It's been nearly 15 years in the making.


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## Dave Connor (Sep 2, 2014)

Jose, once again, a very poor response that assumes things I didn't say (Bush 41?) and shows you didn't grasp what I did say.
Case in point: if you are saying that YOU knew that Iraq was in a disintegrated state prior to us pulling out than you are strengthening my point that the U.S. intelligence and therefore the President also knew - correct? So we then leave because as you say Iraq is _supposed_ to be independent? We will just wink at the fact that we're leaving them completely vulnerable in the most unstable blood drenched region in the world? 

We are in agreement then on the frailty of Iraq even prior to us leaving. So you and I and U.S. Intel and the President must have known that any number of scenarios could play out resulting in a new round of bloodshed there. I take it your policy even in hindsight is the same as the President's: to let it happen right up to the point where even Bagdad was threatened and thus the possible end of Iraq and the establishment of a murderous regime that would make Saddam blush. This is sound policy? It is the exact policy (or lack thereof) that has been executed. My point is that countless Iraqi people have died because of it and people talk about like it's a chess game.


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## AC986 (Sep 2, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Sep 02 said:


> Biden had it right when he suggested we allow it to break into 3 nations, for which he was ridiculed at the time.



We might have a say in that. After all, it was basically formed by BP in the first place.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 2, 2014)

Dave, it is a chess game at one level. And the fact that you said Iraq would fall apart and it did isn't iron-clad proof that it's not just correlation.

I - and I'm sure many people in our government - also recognized the possibility that it could fall apart. But part of the problem was inept leadership (Maliki). I'm sure there were others too.

And of course the entire region is being swept by revolution. It's not just Iraq.

Sitting behind a computer and typing "decisive action" and "wimpy" or whatever the talking heads are saying and Jay is swallowing whole is really easy. Actually making the best decisions - and "not doing stupid stuff!" - is not easy, and the best response for the long term isn't always to jump in half-baked just so you can give Jay the appearance that America is an ANIMAL and don't f with us.

This is what I and Jose keep saying in different words. Sure, it would be really cool if it were simple and we could all feel macho. But it ain't like that. This is a long-term problem.

And oh by the way Obama didn't personally create it, for fuxake.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 2, 2014)

Jay, Richard Clarke is describing a policing problem.

There's a terrorism threat, he says. It wouldn't go away if Obama put on the testosterone show you want to see, in fact that would make it worse.

If you read any of the "Blowback" series by the late Chalmers Johnson, you too might find it astonishing we don't have far more terrorism here.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 2, 2014)

Once again, when a wise person finds himself/herself severely criticized by "their own" they reconsider.

That was the difference between Clinton and Dubya. One learned from others, an the other did not.


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## Guy Rowland (Sep 2, 2014)

Jay - Jose and Chimuelo made a good start of the myraid problems or pointing out that many of these things are, in fact, already happening. Matt and John G pointed out that many of our dependable allies there are, in truth, a huge part of the problem.

If you don't believe it's very complicated, you're misinformed.

Whenever I hear Obama on the subject - and admittedly that's a lot less than you hear in the US - I hear someone who understands that. His comments on stuff being safer now than 20 years ago do sound a little like hubris, I don't know of the full context. Of course on one level he is right, but terrorists have a troubling habit of being one step ahead of the game. We protect against the things that have been done, it's much harder to protect against the things we haven't thought of.

As for being critized by your own party being grounds to reconsider - not necessarily, by any means. In the UK our political parties are riven by internal factions and dissent, sometimes behind closed doors, sometimes in the open. There seems no pattern that I can discern as to when that happens, the people complaining might be right. At the moment, the Tory party are bickering about Europe again. The leader cannot please everyone all the time, and that will probably always include people in his or her own party.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 2, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Sep 02 said:


> Jay, Richard Clarke is describing a policing problem.
> 
> There's a terrorism threat, he says. It wouldn't go away if Obama put on the testosterone show you want to see, in fact that would make it worse.
> 
> If you read any of the "Blowback" series by the late Chalmers Johnson, you too might find it astonishing we don't have far more terrorism here.



i don't want to see a "testosterone show." I want to see the leader of the free world LEAD: convene a conference with all the other leaders of democratic countries in Europe and the concerned Middle East countries like Turkey, and agree to a collective plan.

What Clarke, and Hagel before he was muzzled, spoke to is a sense of urgency. I think the two beheadings may in fact have accomplished that but it should not have had to come to that for Obama to have done so.


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## Dave Connor (Sep 2, 2014)

Nick, I didn't say Obama created the mess. I said he didn't take the obvious precaution of leaving a residual force which is a no-brainer that even someone typing behind a computer can see (let alone a novice in military affairs.) It's just common sense and as old as time. Look at the alternative which is thousands of innocent Iraqi's slaughtered. If it is a chess game someone has no clue how to play.

The Maliki issue falls under the same umbrella of _bad U.S. policy._ It's just another facet of walking away from very predicable results in allowing the new government leadership in Iraq to marginalize an entire populace (the Sunnis.) The brain trust in Washington thought that the Sunnis in the military would then turn around and defend that government? We made the same mistake under Reagan/Bush when we left Afghanistan to their own devices after they defeated Russia. 

Look Nick, you were right and I was wrong about going in and removing Saddam when Bush 43 did that. I thought the guy was a genocidal mass murderer who started wars every couple years. I was flat out wrong about that strategy and now we're dealing with it. But compounding that mistake with policies that open the door for a worse situation then ever there and even less freedom for the Iraqi people (not to mention thousands more dead) is a mistake we could have avoided.


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## germancomponist (Sep 2, 2014)

Oot:

Does anyone really mind that Obama is making the decisions?

We Germans have become afraid of a war with Russia!

We do not want that war!!!

I do not think Obama wants a war. There are the backers, who nobody has voted, but who are pulling the strings!

Think about it!


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 2, 2014)

You have a Parliamentary system that leads to strange bedfellows by necessity.We do not.


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## JonFairhurst (Sep 2, 2014)

Why would a group behead Americans and proudly post video? To draw the Americans into an ill-considered conflict. Duh.

I recommend that we avoid being drawn into an ill-considered conflict.

Sometimes leadership means being patient, directing people to do urgent study, and to craft a strategy that will product the best long-term results. 

Reacting is following, not leading. Don't react. Don't let ISIS lead. Instead, lead those who prepare us (and our allies) for action.

Rather than fan the flames with bursts of fuel and oxygen, we need to support Iraqis (Kurds, Shiites & Sunnis) to smother these extremists from within.

And maybe this is part of the deal: We might need it to get worse before it can get better. We need the Middle East to realize that it cannot tolerate religious extremism - and the realization must be strong enough to bring opponents together and act in self-interest. 

If Uncle Sam struts in with a big military reaction, isn't that just enabling Iraqis to let others sort out their problems? We can support their actions but need to avoid acting in their place.

Here's some good news: ISIS is not sustainable. Threats might force short term support, but threats don't earn loyalty. The more ill-will they earn, the more quickly they will be defeated - from the inside and with our support.

Ignore the short-term ISIS stock ticker. Let's stay confident, courageous, and strong and focus on the end game.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 2, 2014)

Why are they not sustainable? They have more money and more popular support that Al Qaeda ever had. And do you really believe they will not try to attack democracies on their own soil?


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## germancomponist (Sep 2, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Sep 02 said:


> Why are they not sustainable? They have more money and more popular support that Al Qaeda ever had. And do you really believe they will not try to attack democracies on their own soil?



+1


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## José Herring (Sep 2, 2014)

Dave Connor @ Tue Sep 02 said:


> Jose, once again, a very poor response that assumes things I didn't say (Bush 41?) and shows you didn't grasp what I did say.
> Case in point: if you are saying that YOU knew that Iraq was in a disintegrated state prior to us pulling out than you are strengthening my point that the U.S. intelligence and therefore the President also knew - correct? So we then leave because as you say Iraq is _supposed_ to be independent? We will just wink at the fact that we're leaving them completely vulnerable in the most unstable blood drenched region in the world?
> 
> We are in agreement then on the frailty of Iraq even prior to us leaving. So you and I and U.S. Intel and the President must have known that any number of scenarios could play out resulting in a new round of bloodshed there. I take it your policy even in hindsight is the same as the President's: to let it happen right up to the point where even Bagdad was threatened and thus the possible end of Iraq and the establishment of a murderous regime that would make Saddam blush. This is sound policy? It is the exact policy (or lack thereof) that has been executed. My point is that countless Iraqi people have died because of it and people talk about like it's a chess game.


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## chimuelo (Sep 2, 2014)

Jay,
After a weekend of Rachel MadCow, Sean f..ing Hannity, AL GoreZeera, BBC, CNN, CSPAN, and Faux News, it made me want to stockpile ammo again.

After I came to my senses, I turned around and went home, screw the ammo, went to ebay and bought a pair of Roland DEP-5s for that old Eric Pershing Jupiter 8 Chorus sound, and really good reverbs too, much better than the fake ones that cost 4-5 times much as hardware now.

Now my NeoSoul Rhodes sound so big, and Solaris, well..that Dog already knew how to Hunt.

Get lost in a score or buy a DEP-5 from Anaheim I saw on ebay. Hell even the one in Tokyo/Osaka is 69 bucks + 72 shipping.

Write a death to ISIS tune or Obama is a pussy rap hip-hop beat thing-a-ma-jig.

Clonezapam is our friend. :mrgreen:


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 2, 2014)

The title of this topic is *the media* and ISIS. Well, they're failing us again this time. It's all a big march to war, and I don't think it's going to end well.

Right, Obama is sitting around in pink panties in utter disarray instead of being a DECISIVE LEADER. Cynically-crafted language from the usual dickheads (John McCain for example) that gets picked up and repeated as if it's fact. Talking heads who know exactly what Obama should have done to avoid this. Hawks coming out of the woodwork who say this is what happens if America acts weak.

F all of them!

Then online you get Jay: "Yes, evil exists. Therefore you are totally naive not to agree with me that [whatever it is].]" "Do you honestly believe that these people aren't plotting to kill you while you sleep?!" 

'tis folly to be wise.


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## JohnG (Sep 2, 2014)

Dave Connor @ 2nd September 2014 said:


> Nick, I didn't say Obama created the mess. I said he didn't take the obvious precaution of leaving a residual force which is a no-brainer that even someone typing behind a computer can see (let alone a novice in military affairs.) It's just common sense and as old as time.



I categorically reject this argument. 

We needed to pull back. For eight years, we have been propping up Maliki, a sectarian, dictatorial tyrant with gouts of Sunni blood on his hands. Just because he was elected doesn't make him our friend or a morally justifiable leader of a pluralistic Iraq, dispensing even-handedly the rule of law. Quite the opposite, allowing Shia hit squads to operate with impunity and systematically disenfranchising the Sunnis and other minorities.

The US / western occupying force had become an enabler of this tyranny, and increasingly we risked the same problem we had in Vietnam and Afghanistan, namely, becoming the armed forces supporting a corrupt, partisan dictatorship.

Only by leaving have we seen him moved aside and a (hopefully) more inclusive government ushered in.

Finally, I am not interested in having my son (a young child when we foolishly, recklessly, and arrogantly invaded Iraq) end up fighting to support a corrupt, factional dictatorship, in Iraq or anywhere. Do you have a brother / father / son / uncle you want to see doing that? Not me.

We could have kept a lid on Iraq indefinitely, with enough money and troops, but at what cost to the Sunni population? At what cost to our own treasury and armed forces' morale? I wouldn't volunteer to do it and I don't want to coerce someone else into doing it either.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 2, 2014)

Put that way, I have to agree with John.

And notice that the same people mouthing off about how weak we seem - or really Obama is - were also saying it was past time to get out of there a few months ago.

The region has become more dysfunctional the past few years. There's no way to know that we could have prevented that from happening by using power.

On the other hand, Zbigniew Brzezinski makes a serious argument that we could have set up an Israeli-Palestinian solution after the first Gulf War, when our our power was at its historical peak. Actually, he says we *should* have done so.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 2, 2014)

I seem to remember that Clinton did precisely that, only to have Ararat walk away at the final hour, which shocked even his subordinates. And if there were two states tomorrow agreed on if you think that would put an end to the Sunni/Shia/Kurt hatreds for each other and for any government not implementing Sharia law you are crazy IMHO.


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## Dave Connor (Sep 2, 2014)

JohnG @ Tue Sep 02 said:


> Dave Connor @ 2nd September 2014 said:
> 
> 
> > Nick, I didn't say Obama created the mess. I said he didn't take the obvious precaution of leaving a residual force which is a no-brainer that even someone typing behind a computer can see (let alone a novice in military affairs.) It's just common sense and as old as time.
> ...


John it seems you've missed my points:
Propping up Maliki was one of the blunders I referred to. Maybe the biggest one. I made that point so I'm guessing you missed it. It is at the core of the current problem.

We did pull back. We should not have pulled out until we were sure today's events would not unfold. Leaving isn't what triggered the leadership change otherwise Maliki would have been gone days after. ISIS invading has led to it. Are you saying that this was a policy decision?: that we would leave in the hope that thousands of Iraqi deaths would lead to Maliki stepping aside? Of course not. We blundered in allowing the corrupt regime you described. I don't think you and I are as far apart as you think and that's probably because the mistakes made by the U.S. are so obvious.

The whole purpose of a residual force was to prevent exactly what has happened. A safeguard against violence perpetrated by any group from all points of the compass. This force would have been in the desert and not interfering in the Iraqi's lives. The alternative is plain to see: the slaughter of thousands of Iraqi's.

You also missed that I agree with the utter futility of the second invasion of Iraq. It led to numerous deaths of American sons and fathers. My point is that entire Iraqi families are being wiped out by a people who want to kill Americans even more.

The essence of all my comments today have been about the policies that led to the present situation. I have not offered a solution. Because of our terrible policy blunders, the solution is far more difficult and dangerous for the sons and fathers you and I are concerned about.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 2, 2014)

Dave understand that the right wing will never concede that the Obama administration ever has done anything right but the left wing, with the exception of a Rachel Maddow, will never concede that sometimes they have screwed the pooch, as they clearly have on this


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## Dave Connor (Sep 2, 2014)

jay, the knee-jerk thoughtless reactions of both those camps is precisely why I am not aligned with either. I take one issue at a time. The president was criticized in the press recently for the color of his suit. I don't know what side that even came from but why would anyone in the press care remotely about that? You would think he was wearing cutoffs and a straw hat with a corn cob pipe for all the fuss. Truly crazy.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 2, 2014)

JohnG @ Tue Sep 02 said:


> Dave Connor @ 2nd September 2014 said:
> 
> 
> > Nick, I didn't say Obama created the mess. I said he didn't take the obvious precaution of leaving a residual force which is a no-brainer that even someone typing behind a computer can see (let alone a novice in military affairs.) It's just common sense and as old as time.
> ...



Interestingly, I'm in North Carolina at the moment, visiting my son, an intelligence specialist in the U.S Army. He just returned from a 9 month deployment in Kabul.
It was never something I wanted for him. but circumstances in my family's life led him to very much want it for himself. He is smart, brave and strong and despite our differences about the path he's chosen, I am very proud of him.

To reply to something Adrian said earlier- soldiers want to go to war, to be deployed, to be in visceral situations and make their bones. Being trapped on base with nothing really important to do makes them nuts. I'm sure pictures of beheadings of Americans make them very angry indeed-but to my way of thinking, these decisions require a whole lot more gravitas than how angry soldiers are or many Americans are. Remember, "decisive action" will likely kill plenty more civilians and plenty more of our troops.people who think they can figure out the greater good from media sound bites worry me. A lot.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 2, 2014)

^ Facebook-style Like.

Jay:



> I seem to remember that Clinton did precisely that, only to have Ararat walk away at the final hour, which shocked even his subordinates.



Brzezinski was talking about before Clinton. Right after we won the first Gulf War was when our power was at its peak. The Soviet Union was gone and our economy was booming.

And it's not like he was totally critical of Bush I. He's complimentary of his handling of the Soviet Union breakup.

In any case, he wasn't saying we should have asked Arafat to cooperate. He was saying we had *power* and should have forced it.

This is another of those counterfactuals. We'll never know if Brzezinski's right. But he does seem to have a passable grasp of international relations. After all, he's the one responsible for the putting the last straw on the Soviet Union's back - the one that broke them.


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## marclawsonmusic (Sep 2, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Wed Sep 03 said:


> Interestingly, I'm in North Carolina at the moment, visiting my son, an intelligence specialist in the U.S Army. He just returned from a 9 month deployment in Kabul.
> It was never something I wanted for him. but circumstances in my family's life led him to very much want it for himself. He is smart, brave and strong and despite our differences about the path he's chosen, I am very proud of him.


Larry, I don't know you or your son, but I wish him health and safety during his time in the military. Guys like him keep the rest of those nutcases off our back... so we can worry about important stuff like sample libraries, making music and debating foreign policy on internet forums.

And, FWIW, you are a good pop to put aside your differences and even laud him publicly as you have done here.

All the very best,
Marc


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## NYC Composer (Sep 2, 2014)

marclawsonmusic @ Wed Sep 03 said:


> NYC Composer @ Wed Sep 03 said:
> 
> 
> > Interestingly, I'm in North Carolina at the moment, visiting my son, an intelligence specialist in the U.S Army. He just returned from a 9 month deployment in Kabul.
> ...



Thanks, Marc. Yeah, i sometimes think of him when I'm shooting my mouth off in my usual fashion, as if I know something about something  His experience has taught us both a lot. His job is to keep our soldiers safe- and apparently he's very very good at it.


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## AC986 (Sep 3, 2014)

chimuelo @ Tue Sep 02 said:


> Jay,
> After a weekend of Rachel MadCow, Sean f..ing Hannity, AL GoreZeera, BBC, CNN, CSPAN, and Faux News, it made me want to stockpile ammo again.



You're lucky you've got the fucking choice. Here in this craphouse, you're not allowed to protect yourself.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 

We're all going to die. o-[][]-o


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## TheUnfinished (Sep 3, 2014)

I'm assuming you're being sarcastic or numorous or something there, Adrian. I can't believe you'd actually want the US gun culture in the UK?

For people who think Obama's being weak... Given how much money can be made from first bombing them, then bandaging them, one can only imagine the powerful voices whispering in his ear right now wanting to wage war (any old war, doesn't matter who, where, why, how, just let us make our money!).

If you think ISIS is a permanent threat, just look at Al Qaeda. They've been in disarray for years, ineffectual and incompetent. They had plenty of money and resources and (without wishing to sound callous) didn't achieve a great deal beyond the horrific events of 9/11. ISIS have shown more organisation, but have quicky over-reached themselves, and the second the money runs out (which is a lot easier to target than bombing civilians), all those weekend jihadists from Europe will be returning home to live with their parents.


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## Guy Rowland (Sep 3, 2014)

TheUnfinished @ Wed Sep 03 said:


> I'm assuming you're being sarcastic or numorous or something there, Adrian.



I'm not entirely sure why, but that particular post didn't have me rolling on the floor with mirth. Probably just me.

It's interesting that Cameron hasn't drawn the same amount of fire in the UK that Obama has in the US, even though on the face of it we're doing less in the UK. It's almost as if aspects of the US media / culture / system are whipping themselves up into a war-mongering frenzy rather than being entirely rational.


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## AC986 (Sep 3, 2014)

TheUnfinished @ Wed Sep 03 said:


> I'm assuming you're being sarcastic or numorous or something there, Adrian. I can't believe you'd actually want the US gun culture in the UK?



No Matt I wouldn't want any gun culture but I would like to even the odds.

If I'm gonna die, I'm gonna die last. (Robert Mithchum, Build My Gallows High).


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## TheUnfinished (Sep 3, 2014)

Seriously, what the fuck does any of that mean?


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## AC986 (Sep 3, 2014)

TheUnfinished @ Wed Sep 03 said:


> Seriously, what the fuck does any of that mean?



Hopefully you'll never find out.


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## TheUnfinished (Sep 3, 2014)

Ah, you know what? I don't think the testosterone posturing of the 'Universe Repair' forum is for me.

What with this and the Jennifer Lawrence thread... I think I'll bow out and let everyone get on with towelling themselves off.


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## AC986 (Sep 3, 2014)

Ahh Ok then.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 3, 2014)

Adrian, you'd just shoot off your pinky toe. Go have a nice cuppa and breathe deeply.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 3, 2014)

TheUnfinished @ Wed Sep 03 said:


> I'm assuming you're being sarcastic or numorous or something there, Adrian. I can't believe you'd actually want the US gun culture in the UK?
> 
> For people who think Obama's being weak... Given how much money can be made from first bombing them, then bandaging them, one can only imagine the powerful voices whispering in his ear right now wanting to wage war (any old war, doesn't matter who, where, why, how, just let us make our money!).
> 
> If you think ISIS is a permanent threat, just look at Al Qaeda. They've been in disarray for years, ineffectual and incompetent. They had plenty of money and resources and (without wishing to sound callous) didn't achieve a great deal beyond the horrific events of 9/11. ISIS have shown more organisation, but have quicky over-reached themselves, and the second the money runs out (which is a lot easier to target than bombing civilians), all those weekend jihadists from Europe will be returning home to live with their parents.



To take issue with that- Al Quaeda accomplished a great deal in the U.S. They cost us a huge amount of money, they changed our culture into one of fear- fear that was used by neocons to lie to us and send us into destructive wars. They influenced Americans to exchange civil liberties for "security". The operation that took down the Towers was hugely successful and had a massive ripple effect.


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## Dave Connor (Sep 3, 2014)

al-Qaeda used to be in holed-up in Afghanistan and they did incredible damage around the world from there including the U.S. Now they are in Africa, Libya, Syria, Iraq and God knows where else. ISIS is an offshoot of al-Qaeda we all know. I wouldn't call that kind of expansion incompetence but the exact opposite. They are arming, planning, consolidating and obviously relocating. Was it they that stole 11 commercial airliners in Libya the other day? What would a terrorist group want with a bunch of large commercial aircraft anyway? Do you suppose they are competent enough to use them for violence? I know… far fetched, testosterone filled paranoia.


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## Guy Rowland (Sep 3, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Wed Sep 03 said:


> TheUnfinished @ Wed Sep 03 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm assuming you're being sarcastic or numorous or something there, Adrian. I can't believe you'd actually want the US gun culture in the UK?
> ...



I suspect that Matt has left this particular building, but that's not how I read his post. As he said, they didn't achieve much "_beyond_ the horrific events of 9/11". That's pretty clear to me - he's talking about their "work" post 2001. The only issue I'd take is close to home, since they had the transport bombings in London of 2005 - that was a pretty big deal, thanks very much. But then, as he says.... well, not so much.

ISIS, Dave, are an offshoot of course.


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## José Herring (Sep 3, 2014)

"It is very important from my perspective that when we send our pilots in to do a job, that we know that this is a mission that's going to work, that we're very clear on what our objectives are, what our targets are," Obama said. "We've made the case to Congress and we've made the case to the American people, and we've got allies behind us so that it's not just a one-off, but it's something that over time is going to be effective."

Now can we all just get along?

It takes time not to fuck up a country any more than we already have over the last 25 years. I applaud Obama for taking the time necessary to get it right this time instead of just blundering in like barbarians out for blood thirsty revenge. 

I don't know, maybe just maybe the president of the US is a bit more even tempered and smarter than Feinstein and that other idiot quoted.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 3, 2014)

"Accomplished."

BFD. Anyone can destroy other people's lives. That doesn't take much.


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## JonFairhurst (Sep 3, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Sep 02 said:


> Why are they not sustainable? They have more money and more popular support that Al Qaeda ever had.



I don't believe that they are socially sustainable. The people of Iraq have tasted enough freedom and modernity to put up with life under these control freaks. The West will gladly support an effective opponent. The immorality of ISIS undermines their claim on authority. Not even Iran, al qaida, or the Taliban will trust them in power.



EastWest Lurker @ Tue Sep 02 said:


> ...And do you really believe they will not try to attack democracies on their own soil?



I never said that. But what's new? We already have crazies here who shoot up schools and malls. People shoot doctors who perform abortions. Al qaida and others have wanted to blow us up for some time. ISIS didn't invent terrorism.

My point isn't that we should do nothing. My point is that we should absolutely not attack them now. We need to build a coalition. The coalition needs to include strongly supported local leadership. The local need to be willing to destroy ISIS. Once that happens, we can lend our support and win a victory that has a chance of lasting. 

By contrast, one can bomb like mad today, and win short-term battles. But how does this win the war? Creating a power vacuum would only invite a new, more brutal group to take power.

So how do we create a strong opposition to ISIS? We work diplomatically behind the scenes to help form local and global leadership. And how do we get the populace to feel strongly enough to fight ISIS. Frankly, ISIS is doing that job for us right now. 

Back to the media, one thing is puzzling. We don't have a bogeyman. One can feel strongly against Hitler, Pol Pot, bin Laden, Saddam, and even "Chemical Ali", but it's much harder to stir emotions against an organization. Maybe the Administration isn't feeding that to the media to keep American blood lust at bay. Hopefully, the media in the Middle East is reporting on names and faces in ISIS so the people have somebody to hate. If the people of Iraq can't be convinced that these guys are evil, they are doomed to live under evil rule - if not ISIS, then the next radical group that takes their place.

So I'm not opposed to fighting ISIS. I'm opposed to this being the US vs. ISIS. It needs to be Iraqis with global support vs. ISIS - and vs. the ISIS bogeymen.


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## Dave Connor (Sep 3, 2014)

josejherring @ Wed Sep 03 said:


> I applaud Obama for taking the time necessary to get it right this time instead of just blundering in like barbarians out for blood thirsty revenge. I don't know, maybe just maybe the president of the US is a bit more even tempered and smarter than Feinstein and that other idiot quoted.



I don't have a problem with this viewpoint at all. This is an extraordinarily difficult situation. Everyone knows ISIS is a nightmare but between the US starting another war (which the American people do not want) and doing something that benefits other bad guys in the region and further fracturing Iraq, it is very difficult to find the right solution to stopping these psychopaths. My guess is that a coalition will be formed to degrade ISIS and stop and contain them for the time being.


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## germancomponist (Sep 3, 2014)

Dave Connor @ Wed Sep 03 said:


> josejherring @ Wed Sep 03 said:
> 
> 
> > I applaud Obama for taking the time necessary to get it right this time instead of just blundering in like barbarians out for blood thirsty revenge. I don't know, maybe just maybe the president of the US is a bit more even tempered and smarter than Feinstein and that other idiot quoted.
> ...



+1

If u ask me, they are mercenary, at least many of them! 
I do trust not our media!


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## AC986 (Sep 3, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Wed Sep 03 said:


> Adrian, you'd just shoot off your pinky toe. Go have a nice cuppa and breathe deeply.



I could do that if only I had the ammo.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 3, 2014)

Dave Connor @ Wed Sep 03 said:


> josejherring @ Wed Sep 03 said:
> 
> 
> > I applaud Obama for taking the time necessary to get it right this time instead of just blundering in like barbarians out for blood thirsty revenge. I don't know, maybe just maybe the president of the US is a bit more even tempered and smarter than Feinstein and that other idiot quoted.
> ...



Agreed. Where I disagree with some here is whether or not the administration should have seen this coming and started the process some time go. i maintain that the answer is yes.


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## snowleopard (Sep 3, 2014)

I thought I would finally chime in. 

What exactly do we gain by keeping troops in the Middle East endlessly? If it's not oil - a long-term energy problem we knew about a half-century ago - then what is it? 

What _actual_ threat does ISIS present to the US and it's citizens, and our "freedom"? Not perceived thread _if_ they manage to do x, y, z. I mean actual threat. And how is this more of a threat than any other most sinister group anyone can conjure up fairly quickly? 

Why is it the duty of the United States to police the world? If it isn't, then why ISIS? A quick online search will show you there are plenty of other ruthless, barbaric people in that same region who have caught, tortured and beheaded ISIS members. However, that doesn't make the US media feed trough for the masses, does it? 

How do people who support endless war rationalize paying for it? The country is basically flat broke, especially when it comes to working class people and small businesses. How much do they get, for being asked to give even more for this? 

Once we've wiped current ISIS members out, who really believes that will be the end of it? Does anyone think that will stop the hate? Or that the next group that comes along won't be able to scare people with equally barbaric acts? Anyone with enough guts to start really digging will find out we're essentially making them faster than we can kill them. There are many extremely radical children out there being trained today on how to do unspeakable acts. Do a search, you'll see. Does anyone really think bombing ISIS or the next gang that beheads someone on video will stop this cycle?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 3, 2014)

Why, Jay? Because you heard that dickhead rabbi on KABC say that? (I've forgotten his name to keep my blood pressure low, but you know who I'm taking about.)

You and I don't have enough information to know what's going on in that tangled, dysfunctional mess.

To me it sounds like everyone there sucks, including the Israelis - who certainly aren't anywhere near as bad as these horrible people, of course, but I don't think they're the shining force for good either. This seems like there's nothing other than an endless series of multiple choice: a. perfectly horrible, b. disgusting, c. totally offensive, d. disgustingly horribly totally horrible and offensive, e. whatever that incredibly annoying dickhead rabbi on the radio says.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 3, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Sep 03 said:


> Why, Jay? Because you heard that dickhead rabbi on KABC say that? (I've forgotten his name to keep my blood pressure low, but you know who I'm taking about.)
> 
> You and I don't have enough information to know what's going on in that tangled dysfunctional mess.



Actually I don't know who you are talking about because I don't really listen to KABC. I say it because others, like Biden, warned that it could happen a long time ago.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 3, 2014)

You now who I mean. He's local, and while you aren't nearly the idiot he is, your tone is the same.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 3, 2014)

snowleopard @ Wed Sep 03 said:


> I thought I would finally chime in.
> 
> What exactly do we gain by keeping troops in the Middle East endlessly? If it's not oil - a long-term energy problem we knew about a half-century ago - then what is it?
> 
> ...



1. You do realize I trust that that is exactly the same argument those who were against the US entering into WW II made? It was a "European" war we did not to get involved in. Wiser people realized that sooner or later, after he conquered Europe, Hitler would eventually get around to us so Roosevelt pretty much engineered a way that we had to get in.

2. We are far from flat broke. We are still one of the richest nations on earth.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 3, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Sep 03 said:


> You now who I mean. He's local, and while you aren't nearly the idiot he is, your tone is the same.



If you mean Prager, AFAIK he is not a rabbi but either way, I stopped listening to him years ago when like you, he stopped thinking independently and became an idealogue


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## Dave Connor (Sep 3, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Sep 03 said:


> Dave Connor @ Wed Sep 03 said:
> 
> 
> > josejherring @ Wed Sep 03 said:
> ...


They did see it coming Jay and they were far too slow in responding. I think it stems from no residual U.S. force left behind as I have said. For a major city like Mosul to fall to a terrorist army is a rather astonishing failure. With all that water under the bridge however, the question is what do we do now. I am in agreement that a very carefully thought out plan that addresses all the pitfalls and difficulties be put together and the President has said he's doing just that.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 3, 2014)

Prager. And my blood pressure just rose. 



> We are far from flat broke. We are still one of the richest nations on earth.



That's right, and normally spending lots of money on anything is a good thing for the economy when we're in a depression. But I think this kind of spending just goes to Halitosis...Haliburton, sorry, Haliburton.


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## chimuelo (Sep 3, 2014)

After days on end of beheading videos, children impaled, goats raped, we are starting to hear even new scarier talking points like the ground ISIS controls now is the size of Great Britian...... >8o 

Eeeewww.....They must be really tough guys.
Doing the math by dividing total square miles by total ruthless Jihadists I came up with this.

Each Terrorist controls 8875 Square Miles.

She-itt, they some bad muthas'....


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## NYC Composer (Sep 3, 2014)

Ha, Chim!- I literally lol'd. Startled the wife.


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## snowleopard (Sep 3, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Sep 03 said:


> ] You do realize I trust that that is exactly the same argument those who were against the US entering into WW II made?


You didn't address any of my questions or issues I asked, at all. And to equate ISIS strength or reach to that of the Axis powers in the late 1930's is just astounding.


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## AC986 (Sep 4, 2014)

chimuelo @ Wed Sep 03 said:


> After days on end of beheading videos, children impaled, goats raped, we are starting to hear even new scarier talking points like the ground ISIS controls now is the size of Great Britian...... >8o
> 
> Eeeewww.....They must be really tough guys.
> Doing the math by dividing total square miles by total ruthless Jihadists I came up with this.
> ...



Great Britian? Helluva place. I must go there. 

And lets not forget that Great Brtian is about half the size of Nevada.

Are you weaponising any of your 3U hardware btw? I'm thinking about attacking intruders with 3 Bricastis taped together.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 4, 2014)

So I've come to some conclusions after thinking and reading and watching.

1. I think ISIS/ISIL is a band of very well funded bloody pirates with religion and conquest as their ideologies, though the young fighters they attract often have additional motivations (money, respect, adventure etc.)

2. I think if we and a coalition continue with heavier air support of a small contingent of ground troops from Iraq, especially the Kurds and a small force of our own people, we can beat them back and severely damage them, rendering them largely ineffective.

3. I do not think of them as an existential threat to the U.S. homeland, but to the extent they could be, the bulk of the responsibility falls on our incredibly well funded home guard, Homeland Security, local police and our covert intelligence forces to deal with no fly lists and internal security.

4. I watched 2 hrs of Fox News. They are definitely promoting hysteria and fear, and ginning up for war, aided by Feinstein and a few hawkish Dems. Politics at its finest.

5. Militarily, I think we should try our best to limit our ground game but be at high readiness as the situation is very fluid.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 4, 2014)

1, 2, and 5, all agreed and IMHO a wise approach.

3. My brother-in-law works for Homeland Security. Let's just say that is you had dinner with him and listened to what he has experienced, you might have a little less faith in them to keep you safe.

4. I don't know how you managed to do that without constantly rushing to worship the porcelain goddess


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## NYC Composer (Sep 4, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Sep 04 said:


> 1, 2, and 5, all agreed and IMHO a wise approach.
> 
> 3. My brother-in-law works for Homeland Security. Let's just say that is you had dinner with him and listened to what he has experienced, you might have a little less faith in them to keep you safe.
> 
> 4. I don't know how you managed to do that without constantly rushing to worship the porcelain goddess



I didn't say they were good or efficient. I said they were incredibly well funded and I indicated that this is what they were created for.

As for Fox, i routinely spend an hour or two there a week. If 25% of the country accepts them as gospel, I want to hear what they're saying. This last scan confirmed my fears that they have again begun to beat the war drums in the interest of politics and in the desire to sell fear-based advertising time.

Besides my general interest in the affairs of the country, all of that affects my family directly.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 4, 2014)

Turn on CNN or MSNBC and it's All ISIS All the Time.

The drums of war. Sorry, the more they do this the more convinced I am that the hyperbole is out of hand.



> As for Fox, i routinely spend an hour or two there a week.



I spend an hour or two a week slamming my nuts with a brick. It's far less painful.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 4, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Sep 04 said:


> Turn on CNN or MSNBC and it's All ISIS All the Time.
> 
> The drums of war. Sorry, the more they do this the more convinced I am that the hyperbole is out of hand.
> 
> ...



Only an hour or two?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 4, 2014)

That's all I'm wiling to admit to this afternoon.


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## chimuelo (Sep 4, 2014)

I have been following Ben Carson and Elizabeth Warren on CSPAN.

They speak about compromise instead of "giving ground" as if representing "us" is some kind of war, or "winning" like it's their show, instead of ours.

I agree, I can't watch any media that is 24/7 and stays afloat by endorsements and ad campaigns.

We pay for PBS and CSPAN, so to me that's where I can see what I am interested in.
50% of the time it's grandstanding committees, which after a minute I delete.

I wish we had a system where like Sparta we had 2 Kings or 2 top dogs.
Warren and Carson would serve America really well and it's so refreshing to see successful people interested in running rather than the usual generational winners and cash cows, or trial lawyers.

Tired of f...ing ISIS, watch them and feel good about things for a few minutes.
If I wrote a song right now I'd have Ak 47 bursts crossfaded into snare press rolls, helicopters with an MXR phaser like Appocolypse Now, I am tainted by images of war.

Thank God my oldest served and got out in 1 piece.
These jack offs ain't touching Junior Chimuelo, I'll go to war against them if they try that shit...


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## NYC Composer (Sep 4, 2014)

Junior NYC was unpersuadeable. He was 22. Chose his own path.

If you have any sense of me, you damn well know I tried.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 4, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Sep 04 said:


> That's all I'm wiling to admit to this afternoon.



If it becomes an obsession, there's always the Joni Ernst option.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 5, 2014)

Hahaha I had to look her up.

Sounds like my kind of candidate.


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## chimuelo (Sep 11, 2014)

Media Parrots are pushing their bosses agenda since the Presidents speech last night.
Seeings how a MAJORITY of Americans want to get involved in war again, they really need to keep the "scare" level up by taking leaks from the White House and passing them along.

Last week no bombing in Syria, this week ...yes.
Last week 10,000 warriors of Allah, this week 30,000.
The media is going to make a bundle for serving their lords for turning American public opinion up over the next month and running ads where Liberals now want to go to war.

This confirms my opinions about how these 2 Crime Families that say they are Liberal and Conservative, are one of the same and have been for quite a while.

As for the Media Parrots, I have a song describing them....

"We're not the kind to go around spreading rumors,
Well really we're just not the gossiping kind,
You'll never hear one of us repeating gossip,
So you better make sure and listen close the first time."


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## José Herring (Sep 11, 2014)

Last I heard it was a well funded 30,000 jihadist ready to cross the border at Mexico and behead all 350 million Americans, simultaneously.

If that's not a threat Chim, then I don't know what is. Forget about Russian and the nukes, the number 1 threat to America is ISIS or is it ISIL or IS ahhhh...whatever.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 11, 2014)

Existential threat.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 11, 2014)

The media up plays, the Prez downplays and lays out a strategy (not that it was brilliance, but pretty much what I said in my earlier conclusions) that emphasized not "going to war." Fox made quite a deal that the speech was a result of the White House's POLLING. I heard that word repeated over and over in an hour, obviously it's the new dog whistle word.

He absolutely did have to make a speech that indicated he had a forward looking plan because too much hysteria was being ginned up by the media.

It will be interesting to see what happens next.


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## José Herring (Sep 11, 2014)

Pres is just keeping ISIS at bay until the next pres. get's into power to deal with the situation. I feel like it's kind of a punt. This is a game he doesn't want to play.

And he's been hitting the crack pipe too hard if he thinks we're not going to be sending ground troops and leaving it up to the kurds and Iraqis to fight on the ground. That's a pipe dream.


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## chimuelo (Sep 11, 2014)

I believe our Government wants to protect us, and for that I am grateful. But this whole thing stinks like shit.

If you ask me, I'd say these guys were killed long ago and the videos were sent to the US demanding money or else. You'd never put this stuff on YouTube as it is a death wish............

But who would want such a Death Wish....? Us, that's who.
So you wait a while until you can let twitter and youtube in on the scam, since they snoop on us any ways, and then BAMM.....now the "polls" rise drastically as Americans want somebody's ass for this.

There was no reason to do this after getting millions from the truth tellers in Europe that had to finally admit they were giving 60+ million to the ISIS guys. They have many more people and want the money, not antagonize the deadliest military around by posting beheadings.....

That's insane as you now get no more money, and people want you dead....????

But it's just my opinion as I don't believe a word I hear from the liars in NYTimes, or DC.

This distrust started long ago and I have seen so many friends and friends kids come home tore up or never make it back. Once the lies burn in there's no such thing as trust again.
Wish we had a more honest Government, but in this day and age, I guess it's great to know we have the best liars in a world of liars.

Hope they get it right this time.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 11, 2014)

Paranoia strikes deep, into your life it will creep


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## AC986 (Sep 12, 2014)

chimuelo @ Thu Sep 11 said:


> I believe our Government wants to protect us, and for that I am grateful. But this whole thing stinks like shit.



There are a lot of star chamber residents standing invisible behind your President. He is acting after 2 years of this crap because he's bee told to act. Sinister times.

And if you think the EU countries will give you anything more than a cursory nod of help in this you are sadly mistaken.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 12, 2014)

adriancook @ Fri Sep 12 said:


> chimuelo @ Thu Sep 11 said:
> 
> 
> > I believe our Government wants to protect us, and for that I am grateful. But this whole thing stinks like [email protected]#t.
> ...



They will if it's event-driven. That's how things work.


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## AC986 (Sep 12, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Fri Sep 12 said:


> adriancook @ Fri Sep 12 said:
> 
> 
> > chimuelo @ Thu Sep 11 said:
> ...



They haven't up to now though have they. Just ask yourself who was basically doing all the fighting in the 2 conflicts just in Iraq alone, never mind anywhere else, and check out the stats on that. The UK picks up the European tag and is not really a European country. How long that is going to last don't know.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 12, 2014)

It's a fair point.

Still, The Germans are arming the Kurds at the moment. The French are getting involved with certain aspects. When I say even driven, I'm talking about a growing number of terrorist actions within European borders, something I certainly don't want to see happen, but who knows.

I started this topic talking about the media effect, well, not all media is as hysterical as American or British media I suppose, but it's a global media world these days.


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## AC986 (Sep 12, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Fri Sep 12 said:


> It's a fair point.
> 
> Still, The Germans are arming the Kurds at the moment. The French are getting involved with certain aspects. When I say even driven, I'm talking about a growing number of terrorist actions within European borders, something I certainly don't want to see happen, but who knows.
> 
> I started this topic talking about the media effect, well, not all media is as hysterical as American or British media I suppose, but it's a global media world these days.



The trouble with the news media, certainly here at least, is that it's either sales driven i.e. Sky & ITV or it's politically driven i.e. BBC. Every fucking advert on SKY news especially in the mornings is geared towards dirty trash that are constantly in debt, dirty trash shyster firms that want you to sue anybody available and dirty trash lending companies. And on top of that, they then ask you to throw money at Africa. This is daily btw.

One of the issues with Europe whereby they cannot be blamed for inactivity is WW2. After WW2, the USA and Great Britain basically stopped any arming at all and that psyche still exists even though there hasn't really been any enforcement for years.

And Larry why are you awake?


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## NYC Composer (Sep 12, 2014)

I rent my studio by night, and I typically start work around 9 or 10 P.M. I like it this way


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## AC986 (Sep 12, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Fri Sep 12 said:


> I rent my studio by night, and I typically start work around 9 or 10 P.M. I like it this way



That sounds soooo NYC. I moving in!


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## JohnG (Sep 12, 2014)

chimuelo @ 25th August 2014 said:


> Nobody hates war more than a soldier.
> Politicians on the other hand will be honored to fight to the last drop of your blood.



Normally, yes, but this makes McCain a bizarre anomaly. He keeps shouting that we should attack here, there, everywhere. I used to really admire him, but no longer.

Chim I love you man but I don't agree that the press is just a megaphone. It's more chaotic than that and there is negative press every day about corporations and powerful people.

Unfortunately, hard news is not as profitable or glamourous as it once was, so it's not as plentiful. We don't get the level of reporting that we had during, say, Vietnam, when the press relentlessly exposed the terrible policies and violence perpetrated on an undeveloped country in the name of a purist ideology.

Too bad we aren't going after ebola with the same vehemence. Someone needs to discover oil in Sierra Leone and Liberia.


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## AC986 (Sep 12, 2014)

Speaking of Vietnam John, let's take the bombing from the air analogy. The US threw millions of tons of ordinance from the air at the VC and it didn't make any difference.

Air attacks alone are useless. My father in law, now long dead, was at Monte Casino during WW2. In the end it was catastrophic hand to hand fighting even after huge amounts explosives were thrown at the monastery.


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## clarkus (Sep 12, 2014)

There seems to be a rush to get on the bus.

Here is a corrective.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/09/1 ... ing-idiots


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## JohnG (Sep 12, 2014)

What I'd really like to know is where IS are getting ammunition and guns, but that hasn't been covered much, that I've read.



adriancook @ 12th September 2014 said:


> Speaking of Vietnam John, let's take the bombing from the air analogy. The US threw millions of tons of ordinance from the air at the VC and it didn't make any difference.
> 
> Air attacks alone are useless. My father in law, now long dead, was at Monte Casino during WW2. In the end it was catastrophic hand to hand fighting even after huge amounts explosives were thrown at the monastery.



You might be right. Can't wipe them out without ground troops. Sad though the expression "wipe them out" is.

That said, Vietnam was quite some time ago, fought in a lot of jungle territory, where I would think cover for air targets would be easier to come by. Moreover, first-hand testimony of Viet Cong fighters suggests that the air strikes were the things that frightened them the most.

As for Monte Cassino, that was also a while ago now.

Today, they seem to have missiles that can sniff out whether you're drinking tea or coffee. I don't think I'd want to be riding around in a Toyota pickup truck on a desert road when one of those Warthog attack jets (or whatever they use now) appeared.

On the historical subject, here's what Wikipedia has to say about Monte Cassino, fwiw:

During the Battle of Monte Cassino (January–May 1944) the Abbey made up one section of the 161-kilometre (100-mile) Gustav Line, a German defensive line designed to hold the Allied troops from advancing any further into Italy. The Gustav Line stretched from the Tyrrhenian to the Adriatic coast and the monastery was one of the key strongholds, overlooking Highway 6 and blocking the path to Rome. On 15 February 1944 the abbey was almost completely destroyed in a series of heavy American-led air raids. The bombing was conducted because many reports from troops on the ground suggested that Germans were occupying the monastery, and it was considered a key observational post by all those who were fighting in the field.[4] However, during the bombing no Germans were present in the abbey. Subsequent investigations have since confirmed that the only people killed in the monastery by the bombing were 230 Italian civilians seeking refuge there.[5] Only after the bombing were the ruins of the monastery occupied by German Fallschirmjäger (paratroopers), aiding them in their defence, because the ruins provided excellent defensive cover.[6] The heavily outnumbered Germans held the position until withdrawing on 17 May 1944, having repulsed four main offensives by the 2nd New Zealand Division, the 4th Indian Division and II Polish Corps. The Allied forces broke the Gustav Line between 11 and 17 May. The Polish 12th Podolian Uhlans Regiment of the Polish II Corps, commanded by Lt. Gen. Władysław Anders, raised the Polish flag over the ruins 18 May 1944.[7] The road to Rome was then open.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 12, 2014)

JohnG @ Fri Sep 12 said:


> What I'd really like to know is where IS are getting ammunition and guns, but that hasn't been covered much, that I've read.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Suddenly I'm nostalgic for the good old days of manly slaughter. This drone thing is so far removed. Of course, I'm nostalgic for the good ol' Cold War too. Nuclear proliferation, mutual spying, the struggle of superpowers,Russian tanks rollicking through the Eastern block, the Domino Theory, ah, I tell ya, it makes a centenarian wipe away a fond tear :wink: 

Troops on the ground? They're already there. More are coming. What Obama is trying to avoid is a full scale assault, and he's trying to control and beat them back, trying to form coalitions, trying to get a less foul government in place, seeing what can be done at the lower levels. The armed forces are stretched and exhausted, as is our budget.we essentially conscripted a lot of the National Guard to fight the two wars we had going- what next, a draft? This full scale assault is unlikely to happen- but the wild card is a significant terrorist event. 

On a personal note, I'm very pleased that it's September 12th. My wife and I do a news blackout the day before and the day after. Neither of us need the cloying emotionalism that pervades these media driven, tear soaked remembrance media blitzes. We just go about our business, not allowing anything to change our routines except police cordons. To our way of thinking, that's the best revenge- they may have changed our lives, but going forward, they're not changing our day to day way of life.


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## chimuelo (Sep 13, 2014)

Sounds like a plan Larry.
I blackout media like our children black out educrats text books in public schools.
I have a few sources, mostly independent journalists that have not yet caved into sucking ass for a better salary.
But since they're getting killed in Mexico, Syria and Iraq it becomes hard to find the truth earlier than western media and their paymasters decide.

Japans Government voiced an excellent idea about how on the 7th, only history channels and documentaries should post such historical events, and it actually worked as now the 7th is mentioned and even commented on, but surely not like the 9/11 high dosage of anti Jihadist stuff we have been basted with.

Perhaps John Kerry can sit with ISIS and Al Queda and discuss a similar amount of propaganda dosage, I might even agree with the Jihadi's on this, but they have to stop killing so many folks.
This could cause new video games and get more Americans to join in the fight against Assad/Syria that has now morphed into an anti EU/UK USA kind of a thing.


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## AC986 (Sep 13, 2014)

The Pope has now declared WW3 is taking place.


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## chimuelo (Sep 13, 2014)

Well he's catching up with the other guys wearing silly outfits as they have declared any other societys' than their own are Great Satans, red horns and pitchforks, etc.

Through world wide prayer, I am sure one of the many deity's might return to let earthlings know they must reconsider destroying themselves.

If they were smart, they'd shut up, watch, and then return to the ashes and manipulate the DNA again, with new anti destruction genes like we saw with Sandra Bullock and Sylvester Stallone in the future San Angelos, where MURDER DEATH KILLS were rare and so scarry.


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## AC986 (Sep 13, 2014)

Chim did you miss church last Sunday?


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## chimuelo (Sep 13, 2014)

There is a Church in Nashville where you build your own Theology and seems to have a nice sized audience.
But still, I am a Vegas guy, I like the odds, and as long as we have dozens of dieties to pray to, why on Earth would a guy like me settle for one...?
Take no chances I say, Pray to Allah, Buddha, Jehovah, Jesus, Zeus, Osiris, one of them is bound to answer.

So rather than spend money helping build a house of worship, when I can have a mobile group of Gods to pray to?

In this way I can buy more plug ins like MeldaProductions latest Vintage Rotary which gives me the perfect ELP/Jon Lord tones and sounds awesome.

I haven't played a Hammond for years, so seeing a cool looking picture of one on my screen and actually swelling it's fake drawbars, and adding extra drive via an expression makes me think I have a crew, a record deal and all of the gear again, even if I am only playing for drunks and waittail cocktresses.

Praise The Lord.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 13, 2014)

chimuelo @ Sat Sep 13 said:


> There is a Church in Nashville where you build your own Theology and seems to have a nice sized audience.
> But still, I am a Vegas guy, I like the odds, and as long as we have dozens of dieties to pray to, why on Earth would a guy like me settle for one...?
> Take no chances I say, Pray to Allah, Buddha, Jehovah, Jesus, Zeus, Osiris, one of them is bound to answer.
> 
> ...



OT- i really like Melda stuff. The MeldaMultramizer beats Ozone for giving me competitive levels (I bought it) and I've started using their compressor and may pay them for that as well. 

Back on topic- Kerry was scolded for saying the conflict with ISIS is not a war- the White House disagreed, so i guess though the War on Terror is over (according to a much earler Obama statement), the War on Isis is officially on. Let the games begin.


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## chimuelo (Sep 13, 2014)

Our children are even confused by the Liberal political correctness so badly the Educrats from DC in partnership with Mattell have a new GI Joe to help with explaining the Boots on the Ground blatherings.

He's called the Shoeless Joe, on sale now to help support Liberal Fundraising at your nearest Toys From Liberals R Us.




image upload


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## chimuelo (Sep 13, 2014)

Yepp, another beheading now over same backdrop of Sand, probably at least 4 truckloads, or 40 tons.
These ISIS guys are so determined to help build a coalition, they're taking the millions they could have made from ransom money and demanding the UK now join in the fight.

I'd say after a couple speeches and fundraisers, they'll behead a German guy but give him the dignity of an Oasis for a backdrop with Camels & Palm trees.

Merkel will give a speech, then they'll behead a French Journalist, and finally getting around to a Dutch journalist.

Then the UN will have a meeting, some more speeches, and right after the election....Whammo.
ISIS will have succeeded in getting as many nations to come and kill them as possible.

In the last 2 weeks each Jihadist has gone from owning 8700 sq. miles per fighter, to roughly 2600 Sq.Miles as their ranks have swollen from 10,000 to 31,500. Glad they're not rounding numbers off now, it's more believable for the Sheep.

That's why I love the Discovery Channel where Scientists explain evolution in such remarkable ways like, 427.5 million years ago this photoshopped picture was what Earth looked like.....If they said 400 I would have said you're full of shit, but that 20 combined with the 7 and the .5 was the deciding factor for me.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 13, 2014)

chimuelo @ Sat Sep 13 said:


> Our children are even confused by the Liberal political correctness so badly the Educrats from DC in partnership with Mattell have a new GI Joe to help with explaining the Boots on the Ground blatherings.
> 
> He's called the Shoeless Joe, on sale now to help support Liberal Fundraising at your nearest Toys From Liberals R Us.
> 
> ...



See "Dick Cheney", "neo-cons" and "unnecessary, costly, deadly, civilian killing, credibility-detroying wars". THEN we can return to the evil liberals and their insufficient funding of soldiers who had no business having to go where they were sent.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 13, 2014)

chimuelo @ Sat Sep 13 said:


> That's why I love the Discovery Channel where Scientists explain evolution in such remarkable ways like, 427.5 million years ago this photoshopped picture was what Earth looked like.....If they said 400 I would have said you're full of [email protected]#t, but that 20 combined with the 7 and the .5 was the deciding factor for me.



scientists- "this is how the earth looked...."

musicians: "in the year 2525...."

:wink:


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## chimuelo (Sep 13, 2014)

:lol: 

I am A-Political Larry. 
If you get a chance read a little or see if CSPAN or PBS has the book signing event from Barnes & Noble in NYC from weeks back about General Zinni.
I am pro soldier when it comes to war not pro party, as these 2 crime families could fuck up a steel ball.
Book is titled "Before The First Shots Are Fired."

Obama made me regret voting for wealthy Liberals again in Libya, as it's effects came back to bite him in the ass in 2012, luckily Liberal liars covered that up and still are investigating "themselves".

If you want to get Liberals angry enough to win a war, have ISIS guys with stocking caps on standing by a picture of one of their Yachts, Vineyards or Lear Jets on fire.
Or better yet blow up one of their tax payer funded Wind Turbines that pays them even when not operating as they found out a bird was killed by it.

I thought Iran was so tough and Syria was on its way to defeat Israel (again) and here they sit watching the show while we make fools of ourselves.

Don't wealthy Green Energy backers from the Persian Gulf have warplanes or are they all flying Casinos to practice in prior to landing in Monaco where Al Gore awaits for them getting a massage on one of their Yachts moored there.....?


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## NYC Composer (Sep 13, 2014)

chimuelo @ Sat Sep 13 said:


> :lol:
> 
> I am A-Political Larry.
> If you get a chance read a little or see if CSPAN or PBS has the book signing event from Barnes & Noble in NYC from weeks back about General Zinni.
> ...



In all honesty Chim-you don't seem apolitical. You present balanced views on certain things, but the constant stream of "wealthy re-distributors" comments certainly seem aimed at the left. I'm rather surprised, as an apolitical person, that your rage is directed at "Liberals" more than at Big Dick Cheney, the worst thing to happen in American politics in my memory. I am left of center but not an ideologue, and I would never describe myself as apolitical for some good reasons. I am no Al Gore fan at all, but I don't believe we would have ended up in Iraq had he been installed as Prez (he WAS elected.) That's politics.

I don't think you could be much more pro-soldier than I am at the moment. Sending our guys in to the usual meatgrinder, AGAIN, is the last things I want, but I would support it if I truly believed in an existential threat.

edit-and Zinni-saw him on Charlie Rose. Thing is, he retired right before the Big Show in Iraq, so. Still, I agree with a lot of what he says. For one thing, we need the Europeans in this thing despite their distaste.


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## chimuelo (Sep 13, 2014)

Actually he was in Iraq. All Generals retired are quite valuable for advice as he was hired probably by the Pentagon or Green Energy backers from a Big Oil Sheikdom.

And yes I bash the wealthy redistributors since they are in power, but you know as well as I do that the next group of redistributors will take care of their friends just like Eric Cantor is doing on Wall Street now.
We remove these bums and they are not suppose to lobby for 2 years, but Chris Dodd was wanting to be with his family after he was busted for buying beach front property from gangsters at capital one, a liberal favorite, Hollywood too as they got Alec, Jennifer, etc.
Then poor Mr. Dodd got cancer and it would be awful and inhumane to prosecute a sick wealthy liberal. 
But lo and behold he was healed by God himself overnight, and even made it back as a lobbyist under 1 years time, breaking yet another law.

If you really want to see what Liberals are made of, watch who gets pardoned in 2016.
Or better yet what happened to Senator Corzine who stole 1.5 billion dollars from investors on Wall Street. DOJ found he did nothing wrong.
And the media says what....????

So yes, who ever is in power and stealing money and lying to us, while breaking laws we would be jailed for, you damn right I am going to bash them.

6 weeks from now I will start bashing conservatives. As I am quite sure they haven't changed either.

You know the game and patterns by now. Liberals get 8 years max, then we get 12 of conservatives, happens over and over. When we see 12 years of Liberals, our enemies will invade the entire continent as they can score big during 12 years of fundraising......


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## NYC Composer (Sep 13, 2014)

chimuelo @ Sun Sep 14 said:


> Actually he was in Iraq. All Generals retired are quite valuable for advice as he was hired probably by the Pentagon or Green Energy backers from a Big Oil Sheikdom.
> 
> And yes I bash the wealthy redistributors since they are in power, but you know as well as I do that the next group of redistributors will take care of their friends just like Eric Cantor is doing on Wall Street now.
> We remove these bums and they are not suppose to lobby for 2 years, but Chris Dodd was wanting to be with his family after he was busted for buying beach front property from gangsters at capital one, a liberal favorite, Hollywood too as they got Alec, Jennifer, etc.
> ...



Excellent. I will be waiting for equal bashing time, then 

I agree that most politicians are in it for the cashola and the cavorting. 's why I support two big initiatives: public campaign financing and a 5 year moratorium on lobbyist jobs after leaving office. They'd still figure out a way around it, but I'd be happier when those prosecutions went down and actually punished a few here and there.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 13, 2014)

I find it annoying when people call everyone else "sheep" whether or not I agree with what they're saying.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 13, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Sep 14 said:


> I find it annoying when people call everyone else "sheep" whether or not I agree with what they're saying.



...or sheeple.


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## AC986 (Sep 14, 2014)

Larry haven't you yet realised you will NEVER get Chim to answer a question directly.

This is because he is a sleeping politician and has learnt to NEVER answer anything other than with another question or a statement that has nothing to do with the original question.

He's a genuis!


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## chimuelo (Sep 14, 2014)

I am honing in my skills with the very misdirection I have learned from wealthy redistributors under questioning on CSPAN.
Didn't realize I was getting mad skills, but when I awaken the first thing I do is take the 5th Amendment outloud like Giancana, Luciano, Lerner and other role models.

Then I look around and see my family has been waiting, then tells me it's OK dad/chim, and I start redistributing my wealth by cooking breakfast for everyone, even though these helpless people are fully grown and quite capable of feeding themselves

I am a Sheep since I voted for these wealthy folks thinking they know more than me as they are wealthier, so it seems I dislike what's in my house most, a Sheep who just wants to remove his wool but never can get all of it off of his hide.

I shall bash the NeoCons with you Larry as I am quite sure we will get Koch Brothers puppets or Soros shake down monkeys, as they are the cats who play the Accordian.


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## AC986 (Sep 14, 2014)

chimuelo @ Sun Sep 14 said:


> Didn't realize I was getting mad skills, but when I awaken the first thing I do is take the 5th Amendment outloud like Giancana, Luciano, Lerner and other role models.



Mad people never do. You mean Lucky Luciano?

(as an aside to Larry) this man is completely insane

(to Chim himself) It's alright Chim. Everything is going to alright. (reassuring laughter)

Yours 

Max Bialystock


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 14, 2014)

Go to work? haha I go to work.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 15, 2014)

To Adrian's point about tepid European support, this article is hilarious in its attempt to create the illusion of a coalition- oh my, France is flying reconaissance flights over Iraq!
The Dutch are going to revoke passports! 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/14/world/mea ... ?hpt=hp_t1


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## NYC Composer (Sep 15, 2014)

adriancook @ Sun Sep 14 said:


> chimuelo @ Sun Sep 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Didn't realize I was getting mad skills, but when I awaken the first thing I do is take the 5th Amendment outloud like Giancana, Luciano, Lerner and other role models.
> ...



I miss Zero Mostel (sigh). A story: according to an ad agency friend, his agency hired Zero to do a voiceover. Mostel didn't like the script. He suggested some changes. The copywriter demurred. Mostel took out a lighter, set fire to the script, waited til it had turned to ash and then stalked out.

Back to Isis.


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## chimuelo (Sep 15, 2014)

Made my first trip to NYC when I was 16 but my parents let me go since the band leader was the Jazz Instructor at SIU Edwardsville.
Saw Fiddler On The Roof w/ Zero Mostel and was enfactuated with Theater ever since. Which is why I snore at Las Vegas' idea of Theater. 
Zero Mostel in the Producers is still one of my favorite movies.
IN case folks wonder why I write "Ankyu" on occasion, it's because that's the way the "Producer" in the original movie got rid of folks auditioning, he would let them go for a few bars and just yell "Ankyu" which meant you suck, we don't need you, etc.

Movies like that these days would be scrutinized by the politically correct mamby pamby society we suffer under and would never make it to market.

Oh ze fuhrer vas a vunderful dancer....?

Last count on the (Quack) coalition was 42 nations, as they realized the Sheep found the round number of 40 hard to buy.....

Iceland has offered several nudists that will stroll towards ISIS positions, forcing Jihadists to do double takes on their Scopes, giving our snipers a chance to see the reflections for some good one shot kills.

Marvellous..


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## JonFairhurst (Sep 16, 2014)

A week ago: "Obama needs to attack immediately. He doesn't even have a strategy!"

A few days ago: "This aren't enough countries joining in. You can't even call it a coalition! Bush's was bigger!"

Now: "Who even are these countries?"


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## AC986 (Sep 16, 2014)

Now Kenneth Mars was completely nuts.


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## chimuelo (Sep 16, 2014)

I bet we'll look back at this a few years from now and folks will find out how complicit the media has been in spreading around their bosses messages.
We'll see how this whole charade allowed Israel to finish off Hamas quietly, and the mixed messages were actually a great strategy, as they were mistaken for weakness.

We probably have thousands of troops massing over there right now dressing up as the local tribesmen.

I have faith in Obama as I believe he wants to conquer Jihadists all in one fell swoop.
Hamas and ISIS will crumble as the non war takes off just in time for re elections.

If they get that white cop in Ferguson the week before we start letting the locals behead ISIS guys, we might even turn the tables and see Congress and the Senate packed with wealthy redistributors instead of turning them into lobbyists.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 16, 2014)

chimuelo @ Tue Sep 16 said:


> I bet we'll look back at this a few years from now and folks will find out how complicit the media has been in spreading around their bosses messages.
> We'll see how this whole charade allowed Israel to finish off Hamas quietly, and the mixed messages were actually a great strategy, as they were mistaken for weakness.
> 
> We probably have thousands of troops massing over there right now dressing up as the local tribesmen.
> ...



Are you suggesting there's politics in government?? Say it ain't so!! :wink:


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## NYC Composer (Sep 17, 2014)

Well-let's catch up:

1. We ARE at war with ISIS/ISIL. The "war on terrorism" is re-established.
2. We ARE going to have boots on the ground but they won't fight, just train and advise.
3. We're going to arm the Syrian rebels.
4. The Pentagon wants to leave open the possibility that our boots on the ground will kick some azz.
5. Senator Joe Manchin is losing his shit on the Syrian rebel idea. He thinks it's beyond dumb.
6. Fox is losing their shit re wanting to go kick some azz. Them durned bombings will never work.

I should follow my own damn advice:http://www.ljnmusicandsound.com/2009/turn-off-the-news/


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## chimuelo (Sep 18, 2014)

The best thing that happened from all of this political nonsense is that we finally saw a bi-partisan agreement on something other than another pay raise or exemption from Obamacare.
Watching wealthy Liberals run from their core beliefs in hopes of retaining their lucrative positions is most entertaining.

Even though the administration is trying to stay on message, they can't keep up with their attempts to react to public opinion.
It's incredibly embarrassing to think these folks run the country and can't get their talking points with straight each other.

Here's some advice on watching Cable news.
Go to CNN at 0500 Hours and just do other things and not really listen until the weather girl comes on.
That Ingar Petersen gal has a smokin' hot ass, and they always let her walk towards the cackling hens so folks get a great view of that incredible set of Glutes. She has a better ass than Erin Andrews.

Then go to your local news, then stop over and get a glimpse of Elizabeth Hasselbeck, what a fine specimen she is.
So now, if your like me your ready to rehearse practice record and thanks to fine babes, the extra blood flow to your lower body along with the coffee gives you a great start in the morning.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 18, 2014)

None of that liberal PC gender crap for you, buddy!


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## JonFairhurst (Sep 18, 2014)

Chim,

Please ask the moderator to change the subject line to

*The media and ASSES.*

Thank you.


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## chimuelo (Sep 18, 2014)

Sorry 'bout that chiefs... 8) 

Yes, a great thread would be Media and ASSES.....

I have to admit, they get me to watch for a spell everyday, but only for those reasons.
Besides everything they cackle on about I have heard days and sometimes weeks before they gave their "expert analysis" on.

For example in the LA Times you never heard about the Cartel War and 25,000 dead, and that was in 2008-9, it's much higher now.
The Las Vegas Sun had it on the front page during and after the election of the Prez. Then only in the late Spring of 2009 did cable news and the trio of White House TV outlets even mention it.

In the last 6 months the Mexican military has fired at Border Patrol and civilians 3 times that I have read about, not a peep in the usual cable and TV outlets.
50. caliber rounds fired by Cartel Coyotes at journalists and BP several times, again a reign of silence.
How about the report from Police on how teams of snipers were taking out our power grid in 2 western states, not a peep from the Parrots, and even a Senate committee was angry that people found out, more than being upset at the tactics used. That was almost 2 years ago and only 7 weeks ago was it mentioned by the usual lackeys.

These topics, along with fine booty makes a great thread about ASSES......
The well shaped ones, and the ones sitting down waiting for permission to speak from their bosses.

Ankyu.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 18, 2014)

Sure I shouldn't change it to ASSIL?


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## chimuelo (Sep 22, 2014)

Wow....It appears the Prez. finally took advice from Brigadier General Vallerie Jarrett and unleashed the Kracken on ISIS in Syria.
I am so happy the Arab Nations are on the front lines too. 
This is actually historical.

Go Bama..


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## NYC Composer (Sep 22, 2014)

chimuelo @ Mon Sep 22 said:


> Wow....It appears the Prez. finally took advice from Brigadier General Vallerie Jarrett and unleashed the Kracken on ISIS in Syria.
> I am so happy the Arab Nations are on the front lines too.
> This is actually historical.
> 
> Go Bama..



...and the French took solo action in Iraq the other day. Hmm. I missed an entire day of news...what a relief.


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## chimuelo (Sep 23, 2014)

THat's OK. Starting this week Liberals will start campaigning as War Mongers.
Already we are seeing Leslie Grimes telling folks she don't hang with Obama and then turning to shoot some Ducks with her Daddys' Shotgun.

These next several weeks will be a media blackout as I withdraw from civilian life as soon as the liars in DC and the media start spending billions to make millions in DC where their low 6 figure salary is just never enough.

Blacklist was pretty cool last night, much better than the (yawn, yawn) NFL game.
Tonight maybe NCIS New Orleans or a new Person Of Interest.
I love watching the whacko killer chicks on POI. Sarah Shahi is georgeous.
The crazed women is unusually attractive too in some strange way.
But the real reason is the way they do remixes of Johnny Cash with synths, etc.

What more can a musician ask for than fine trim and interesting musical and SFX tracks.


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## chimuelo (Sep 23, 2014)

The first time in a long time I sat and watched something for 2 hours other than sports. 
These 2 shows are great. NCIS is well written.
Person of interest, I haven't got a clue. I just stared at Sarah Shahi so I don't know what happened really, and the music must have been boring this time as it didn't get my attention.
Now for the Media and ASSES again...

ANkyu


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## NYC Composer (Sep 23, 2014)

chimuelo @ Tue Sep 23 said:


> THat's OK. Starting this week Liberals will start campaigning as War Mongers.
> Already we are seeing Leslie Grimes telling folks she don't hang with Obama and then turning to shoot some Ducks with her Daddys' Shotgun.
> 
> These next several weeks will be a media blackout as I withdraw from civilian life as soon as the liars in DC and the media start spending billions to make millions in DC where their low 6 figure salary is just never enough.
> ...



I agree about the media liberals readying for a popular war.

Re Blacklist- the scorer, Dan Licht, does fine work. He's an old ex-pal of mine from NYC. I'm very pleased about his success, but it seems I develop an allergy to people the minute they ascend (or they to me!) Anyway, nice to see the homeboys killin' it even if they move to SoCal to do it.


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## JonFairhurst (Sep 23, 2014)

The coalition might need to kill ISIS with bombs in the short term.

What we really need is for the Muslim community needs to kill ISIS with shame in the long term.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 23, 2014)

JonFairhurst @ Wed Sep 24 said:


> The coalition might need to kill ISIS with bombs in the short term.
> 
> What we really need is for the Muslim community needs to kill ISIS with shame in the long term.



...or maybe shame and bombs. Sadly.


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## chimuelo (Sep 24, 2014)

It's sad that we have to support these corrupt regimes and dictators still.
I thought getting rid of Mubarek and Hussein was suppose to be the way forward.
All we did was get rid of any opposition to our Shieks and Kings of the Gulf.
Isn't it nice of them to allow training of poor Sunnis on their soil to protect their lifestyles again.

And what's a moderate jihadist rebel anyways..? One who only rapes once a week and beheads monthly...?


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## G.R. Baumann (Sep 27, 2014)

Few days ago... Obamas speech at the UN

Few days later roughly from 25th on.... I think that "our friends" the cruise missile and ammo manufacturers, all the producers of death should not be allowed to be traded on stock markets.

https://www.google.de/search?client...&oe=UTF-8&gfe_rd=cr&ei=yqImVIfsN4im8weXhIDgCQ

https://www.google.de/search?client...&oe=UTF-8&gfe_rd=cr&ei=6qImVNDDMoim8weXhIDgCQ

https://www.google.de/search?client...&oe=UTF-8&gfe_rd=cr&ei=GqMmVO6AMoim8weXhIDgCQ

https://www.google.de/search?client...&oe=UTF-8&gfe_rd=cr&ei=V6MmVMLVJ4Sm8wfR5YCoCA


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## Hannes_F (Sep 27, 2014)

G.R. Baumann @ Sat Sep 27 said:


> I think that "our friends" the cruise missile and ammo manufacturers, all the producers of death should not be allowed to be traded on stock markets.



Amen brother.


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## gbar (Sep 27, 2014)

Duplicate post


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## gbar (Sep 27, 2014)

gbar @ Sat Sep 27 said:


> Hannes_F @ Sat Sep 27 said:
> 
> 
> > G.R. Baumann @ Sat Sep 27 said:
> ...



You both realize that we've probably had contracts with publicly traded companies since Thomas Mifflin, right?

He was the first Quartermaster General, appointed by George Washington in 1775. I don't think there was much domestic "trading" of securities then (NYSE wasn't founded yet), but.... The point being that the relationship between business and "Defense" (formerly, "Department of War") is as old as the country.

The person Washington tapped to both procure supplies and act as his stand-in was a merchant who was in the business of trading in such things. And it kind of made sense to appoint him because you wouldn't have wanted an inexperienced person doing it (things went badly enough without that lol).


Odd notes: "Dunder Mifflin" of "The Office" fame is a parody of all the entities named after Mifflin.

The first Bank Panic was in 1792 or 1791, I think. Speculative trading in the newly formed Bank of the United States (authorized by George Washington) securities by some traders drove up securities prices and then prices collapsed after those traders defaulted on loans. Alexander Hamilton did the first Bank Bailout to avert a total collapse.

Final Note:

I don't think it's feasible or desirable to have all defense contractors privately held, FWIW.


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## G.R. Baumann (Sep 27, 2014)

...and Adam Smith was born 1723, so what?

The links of power between those who manufacture and those who govern, elected or not, are to be found at the many roots of war. Old people talk about war, young people die, enthusiastically, of course.

Just because the myriads of spread sheet schizophrenics, some call them economists, still walk through the halls of power, armed with their bibles of Keynes, Hayek, Friedman etc, and maintain status quo that there is essentially nothing wrong with the system per se, does not make it right to begin with.


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## gbar (Sep 27, 2014)

G.R. Baumann @ Sat Sep 27 said:


> ...and Adam Smith was born 1723, so what?
> 
> The links of power between those who manufacture and those who govern, elected or not, are to be found at the many roots of war. Old people talk about war, young people die, enthusiastically, of course.
> 
> Just because the myriads of spread sheet schizophrenics, some call them economists, still walk through the halls of power, armed with their bibles of Keynes, Hayek, Friedman etc, and maintain status quo that there is essentially nothing wrong with the system per se, does not make it right to begin with.




I just think you may be taking issue with the wrong thing. I don't think the problem is the companies are publicly held, nor do I think privately held (by newly minted trilonaires--lol) will change a thing.

The fact that companies are publicly traded doesn't necessarily imply they dictate policy. In fact, participants could pretty much make sure that didn't happen if that is what they choose to do.

And whether it's the Dutch West Indies Company selling arms to the Continental Army, or the Court of France trading munitions for tobacco, or Lockheed Martin contracting to build jets for the DOD is kind of irrelevant. It's not like war magically appeared with publicly traded companies.

Heck the Soviets were pretty danged militant, and they had no publicly traded companies. Some of the most militant courts of Europe had no securities market.

War is old. Diverting resources to prepare and pay for it is as old as civilization.

The focus seems wrong to me.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 27, 2014)

http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/26095-americans-who-have-not-read-a-single-article-about-syria-strongly-support-bombing-it (http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2 ... bombing-it)

And that's exactly what I was saying earlier in this thread.


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## José Herring (Sep 27, 2014)

We have to accept the fact that war is in part business, just like divorce is a business, prisons, ect....

Business has no loyalty, could care or less about national pride.

Just recently learned that the original design for the highly praised F-22 and F-35 American fighters came from the Russians.

We can moan all day about what should and shouldn't be, but that's not going to change the fact publicly traded or not, war is good for weapons manufactures.

It's just something that we have to deal with if we want defensive capabilities.


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## G.R. Baumann (Sep 27, 2014)

The links between governance, those who hold power and the industrial military complex are unaccounted for hence they are wide open for multple ways of manipulation. 

Am I suggesting that manufacturers have their say on policies and even influence possible war theaters? 

Hell yes!

I am suggesting too that there is more to the "economics of war" than calculation of cost. While on a single day the US shot 47 times tomahawk long range cruise missiles at $ 1.5 million a piece, at the very same time people were making a profit on the stock market because of that!

I consider that sort of profiteering the most disgusting aspect of it. Why should we not cut off war profiteers from their endless stream of gains?


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## gbar (Sep 28, 2014)

G.R. Baumann @ Sat Sep 27 said:


> I am suggesting too that there is more to the "economics of war" than calculation of cost. While on a single day the US shot 47 times tomahawk long range cruise missiles at $ 1.5 million a piece, at the very same time people were making a profit on the stock market because of that!



And to you draw this conclusion based on a day's price movement? The 52 week high for Raytheon was 103.51 back during the first quarter. They're sitting with a P/E of 15.58 with a dividend of 2.4%, so doesn't look like its investors are being too speculative if you ask me.

If you had bought 100 shares at the 103.51 price, your shares would be worth 199 dollars less than you paid for them, but you would be on track to recover 242 dollars in dividends, so you'd be looking at about 43 dollars in gains, minus taxes on your dividends. It's probably a wash after taxes.

Like it or not,though, somebody is going to gain something in a transaction involving weaponry (or most transactions really--it's kind of the point of transacting--both participants are seeking to gain something). 

I seriously doubt Raytheon is doing any Congressional/Presidential arm twisting (lol - is kind of a strange image if you really consider it) to get their weapons systems selected for this particular use of those systems: military commanders who have discussed tactics and strategy with the civilian commander in chief are making those calls.

So what, in your esteemed opinion, is it that the military commanders are doing wrong by selecting cruise missiles?

What would be your choice in weapons systems for the same "targets"?


For some reason, this is making me think of Chris Rock's bit about how to reduce gun deaths in the US: " make bullets cost 5000 dollars. ... Then people will think about it sometimes before they kill somebody..... ". 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZrFVtmRXrw


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## G.R. Baumann (Sep 28, 2014)

gbar @ Sun Sep 28 said:


> What would be your choice in weapons systems for the same "targets"?



None!

https://www.project-syndicate.org/c...d-europe-to-allow-the-region-to-govern-itself


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## chimuelo (Sep 28, 2014)

It's too bad we can't make the world as we wish with warm and fuzzy utopian scenarios, or by force which is the definition of Government.
Neither way ever works, history shows us that.

It seems to me European and American Governments like the war on women in the Mideast and the nations who have beheaded far many more people than ISIS has.

When the bad guys all want to kill each other it seems totally ridiculous to say, no let us spend billions and our kids will fight in your stead again as every other time this has happened.

There are plenty of Gods in the region, since it is so religious let the Gods decide who wins and dies.
Open the Pipelines and federal lands to fracking, Buffet and Soros will make billions elsewhere.
Let's use our military to actually do useful things as we see in Africa.
That training for troops is brilliant IMHO. Anyone messes with them, you kill the dumb bastards, then go back to learning a new trade and see the world all in a single deployment.

Private Joker below says it best..........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tSfsOv_7dM


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## chimuelo (Sep 29, 2014)

As usual I am a day ahead of the NYTimes, see Maureen Dowd the cackling Hen who must know where someone is buried to keep her job, and MSNBC.
Why these are these clowns late to the game.


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## chimuelo (Sep 29, 2014)

DA da ..dah dah dah. da da da...BREAKING NEWS....12 hours later.

Here, let me take her job and tell you what didn't happen in Syria today.

Today no beheaders are going after beheaders who threaten Kurds on the Turkish border, where beheaders there, should be dealing with the beheaders, being attacked by the other beheaders.

Reminds me of a Lexicon VST Plug in.
Lexicon emulates space with their hardware. Then ReLab/Scope DSP emulates the emulation of Space Lexicon makes, and Lexicon not having any of that returns with the VST plug which emulates the emulation that emulated the space in the first place.

Which is why I bypass the extra emulations and pay more for hardware which is the first emulation. Sounds better still too.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 29, 2014)

chimuelo @ Mon Sep 29 said:


> DA da ..dah dah dah. da da da...BREAKING NEWS....12 hours later.
> 
> Here, let me take her job and tell you what didn't happen in Syria today.
> 
> ...



People get the government they deserve, said the sage. I'm not sure any of the average people in these countries deserved this shit.


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