# Mr Elfmans compositions question



## Synthpopbean (Nov 18, 2021)

I am a huge admirer of Mr. Elfman, from his works with Oingo Boingo to his movie scores.
But over the years, the continuous rehashing of the rumors that he had help in the actual scoring of Batman and outer films.
.but especially Batman, irks me. Been researching again, where I read a couple posts elsewhere (and on here) where some posters, supposedly, in the industry claim to have firsthand knowledge that Shirley Walker and Bartek and Smalley literally helped n the actual scoring/composing?
Are these people getting it mixed up with the ORCHESTRATION part? Elfman claims he wrote every part of that score, note by note. Just he hands it over to his longtime collaborator Bartek and Walker to orchestrate it out and conduct. He details this in interviews. 
So, are these industry people who claim to work in the industry who are saying those had more part to secretly play in the SCORE actually mean the orchestration and corrections? And just getting it mixed up?

Talking about back then. Elfman openly credits those who help write actual stuff.


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## Kent (Nov 18, 2021)

Every single post you've made here reads like you're an _agent provocateur_ with a singular purpose: speculations about the skeletons in Danny Elfman's closet*.

Genuinely curious: does nothing else interest you? There's a lot to talk about in VI-Control.


*they're probably all Jack Skellington models, anyways...


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## Synthpopbean (Nov 18, 2021)

kmaster said:


> Every single post you've made here reads like you're an _agent provocateur_ with a singular purpose: speculations about the skeletons in Danny Elfman's closet*.
> 
> Genuinely curious: does nothing else interest you? There's a lot to talk about in VI-Control.
> 
> ...


No, I'm genuinely curious because NOBODY ever clears this one part up. I'm autistic as well, so maybe I am missing something. I obviously do not want it to be true. Many fans have brought it up and harp on it. Isn't just me. When I first started asking, I never understood anything about the differences and what compositions, scores, etc all differentiated from and how any of the process works. I am just a fan, not a music wiz. I still slightly do not understand. Now assuming others have been confusing it. 

I'm a big fan and DON'T want that bad stuff to be true. You ask certain circles and they go berserk. 
The bands I like are my autistic special interests and they mean a lot to me.


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## Hans-Peter (Nov 18, 2021)

All I can say is that whenever I met Elfman personally or witnessed him attending a Batman concert he was very enthusiastic and a lot more nostalgic about the experience than I could have imagined. I believe that he still considers Batman as one of his biggest achievements and is incredibly proud of it (and also still VERY upset about the quality of the recording sessions for Batman). After all, every party involved in the production (except for Burton and a few select ones) were against him scoring Batman and when the time came and recording sessions commenced he had even his greatest doubters conviced who immediately phoned to LA and insisted on a separate score album (an extremely rare situation that an 'inspired' album and a separate score album were released at the time). Batman was his fire trial and despite all odds he won over everyone - and those who'd still complained were amazed by the music but simply refused to believe that someone self-taught could have written a score this complex. In fact, there was an amusing exchange in Keyboard magazine between some mid-south conservatory composition professor, who doubted Elfman could have written the score due to the reasons explained above. Elfman furious about the defamation send a very, well, steamy letter as a response to the magazine. He was very hurt that people wouldn't believe he had written Batman himself. Usually people behave this way only if they are defending their own work - and Elfman certainly was defending it very feircly. That alone gives it away.

Of course, Steve Bartek (very cool guy, btw!) and Shirley Walker made significant contributions as for the orchestration (otherwise a project of this size would have been impossible to pull off). But I absolutely believe that Elfman wrote the largest chunk (also in terms of arrangements). Also, there has been just too much coherence in his style to attribute it to Walker alone (who sadly died in 2006).


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## Synthpopbean (Nov 18, 2021)

kmaster said:


> Every single post you've made here reads like you're an _agent provocateur_ with a singular purpose: speculations about the skeletons in Danny Elfman's closet*.
> 
> Genuinely curious: does nothing else interest you? There's a lot to talk about in VI-Control.
> 
> ...


I have nothing else really to talk about in terms of music making as I am not a composer or music engineer. I am just a young music fan. That is rather ignorant to industry stuff.


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## Synthpopbean (Nov 18, 2021)

Hans-Peter said:


> All I can say is that whenever I met Elfman personally or witnessed him attending a Batman concert he was very enthusiastic and a lot more nostalgic about the experience than I could have imagined. I believe that he still considers it as one of his biggest achievements and is incredibly proud of it. After all, every party involved in the production (except for Burton and a few select ones) were against him scoring Batman and when the time came and recording sessions commenced he had even his greates doubters conviced who immediately phoned to LA and insisted on a separate score album (an extremely rare situation that an 'inspired' album and a separate score album were released at the time).
> Of course, Bartek and Walker made significant contributions as for the orchestration (otherwise a project of this size would have been impossible to pull off). But I absolutely believe that Elfman wrote the largest chunk (also in terms of arrangements). Also, there is just too much coherence in his style to attribute it to Walker alone (who sadly died in 2006).


Thank you!
Yeah, he openly credits Bartek and Walker and admits he needed a lot of help with the rest of it but that he had written every note, that later Bartek and Walker helped orchestrate and conduct. I thought many composers did that? I see it like...an author who can't spell for shit, writes a book and sends it off to an editor, who fixes up all the spelling and grammar and then sends to a publisher.
But there were these assholes, very rudely so, that go after any one that is a fan, saying "Shirley and Steve wrote that score!!" Unless they are getting the orchestration and conducting mixed up with the actual melody stuff. I really think that's what they mean, and hope, cos Elfman, Steve, and Walker all said same thing. He wrote it, they orchestrated it and fixed up the messy parts. So that's no secret. Just wondering what the hell others are on about. Seen it on here a lot.


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## Synthpopbean (Nov 18, 2021)

Hans-Peter said:


> All I can say is that whenever I met Elfman personally or witnessed him attending a Batman concert he was very enthusiastic and a lot more nostalgic about the experience than I could have imagined. I believe that he still considers it as one of his biggest achievements and is incredibly proud of it. After all, every party involved in the production (except for Burton and a few select ones) were against him scoring Batman and when the time came and recording sessions commenced he had even his greates doubters conviced who immediately phoned to LA and insisted on a separate score album (an extremely rare situation that an 'inspired' album and a separate score album were released at the time).
> Of course, Bartek and Walker made significant contributions as for the orchestration (otherwise a project of this size would have been impossible to pull off). But I absolutely believe that Elfman wrote the largest chunk (also in terms of arrangements). Also, there is just too much coherence in his style to attribute it to Walker alone (who sadly died in 2006).


Oh is that why the Prince Batman music was made?


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## Hans-Peter (Nov 18, 2021)

Yes, indeed. The original plan was that Princes' songs would make up the score (not a very smart idea, but ... producers). Burton quickly realized that this wouldn't work and had Elfman hired on the condition that he and the producers would pit Elfmans' music against Princes' during postproduction. Elfman clearly won that match.

Btw, here is a good book on the subject:








Danny Elfman's Batman: A Film Score Guide


This resource is the most in-depth scholarly resource available on Danny Elfman. It integrates a careful study of Elfman's scoring technique with a detailed analysis of the film itself.



rowman.com


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## Crowe (Nov 18, 2021)

There's a whole thread on this and it's never going to be 'cleared up'. Mike Verta and Jay Asher say their 'friends wrote more'. These same friends and Elfman say otherwise in public. That's it.

It's an aggravating game of 'he said she said' that has neither beginning nor end. You either take the composers/orchestrators at their word or you don't.


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## Kent (Nov 18, 2021)

You started threads on this very topic both here and at gears̶l̶u̶t̶z̶space in *2019* with, IMO, rather conclusive answers, both by people who knew/know him firsthand and by people who know the industry well. If neither of those threads are satisfying to you, then I'm not sure what will be.

I cannot speak to 'certain circles going berserk'—I have never seen such—but I feel like the whole thing was a classist hint-of-a-rumor back in the late 80s and, like all rumors, will continue on in spite of preponderance of evidence to the contrary. It's no more productive a conversation than "did John Williams STEAL the _Star Wars_ score from Holst/Korngold/Prokofiev/etc."...which, _of course not_ (for a zillion reasons), although he was clearly _inspired_ by elements of their music.
But let's assume for a second this hypothetical opposite: Danny Elfman's name was attached to something he had no hand whatsoever in.

- Does that change your enjoyment of the music in-and-of-itself any? 
- Does that reduce its effectiveness as a score? 
- Does that diminish its quality as an OST? 
The answers to these would clearly be "no", although what *might* change is your opinion of the man himself or the way the film industry operates. The first is better served on fan-sites, but the second is a great topic for discussion here...

...but speculating on Cold War-era rumors, hints, and allegations is not the best way to go about _that_ conversation.

So what are you hoping to gain?


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## Markrs (Nov 18, 2021)

I'm sure others have seen these resource but will post them for reference





Sources used in the video and where you can find more information on the composing of Batman:

Danny Elfman's Batman (book, 2004): https://www.amazon.com/dp/0810851261/...
Elfman Letter to Rubenstein (1990): http://www.bluntinstrument.org.uk/elf...
Boingo to Batman (page 443) (1990): http://www.bluntinstrument.org.uk/elf...
Bartek Interview (1995): http://www.bluntinstrument.org.uk/elf...
Elfman Interview (2001): https://www.mixonline.com/recording/d...
Elfman TV Interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npPDB... 20/20
Batman Making of: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFSTD...
Elfman Action News Interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMNG7...
Masterclass: https://www.masterclass.com/classes/d...
Huge List of Elfman Interviews: http://www.bluntinstrument.org.uk/elf...
YT Channel with Elfman Worktapes: https://www.youtube.com/user/TheDetec...


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## Markrs (Nov 18, 2021)

What confuses me about this topic, is Danny has gone on to write tons of great soundtracks, if this one had been mainly done by others that wouldn't of happend. Danny is an amazing composer something he has proved through his music time and time again.


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## Crowe (Nov 18, 2021)

kmaster said:


> You started threads on this very topic both here and at gears̶l̶u̶t̶z̶space in *2019*


Oh wow.

OP, don't you think it would be good to be more like Elsa?

Everyone should strive to be more like Elsa.







I mean, that's some fantastic hair.


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## Markrs (Nov 18, 2021)

Synthpopbean said:


> Elfman claims he wrote every part of that score, note by note.


His work tapes that came out of the software "Performer" are on YouTube, you can hear his music before it was orchestrated or performed.



https://youtube.com/user/TheDetective86


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## Markrs (Nov 18, 2021)

Markrs said:


> I'm sure others have seen these resource but will post them for reference
> 
> 
> 
> ...



On this video there is a good summary of someone that though the work was not all Danny and why he changed his mind:

"I have to admit, I thought it was possible that Elfman perhaps composed the melodies, themes, & groundwork for "Batman", but the actual work was done by Bartek & (in large part adapted by) Shirley Walker. I carried that assumption because the Batman score that Walker conducted had a very unique sound that carried over to Warren Beatty's"Dick Tracy" & Elfman's theme for "The Flash" TV series. Shirley's own score for "Batman: Mask of the Phantasm" sounds peculiarly & uncannily similar to the Elfman music. 

When Shirley died, Elfman's subsequent projects have little resemblance to those earlier works. In fact, Elfman's later scores for "Spider-man" & recently "Justice League" also lack the flavor of the superhero music Walker conducted. Logically, I felt that if his scores in the same genre didn't have the same gravitas as the ones Walker contributed to, they must have been the result of her efforts more than his. I was convinced after I saw a TV interview prior to the release of "Batman Returns" where Elfman point-blank says that he has no formal musical training. & admittedly suffers guilt from "imposter syndrome". 

I strongly felt that was what happened...until the expanded soundtracks were released. Here, one could hear the workprints Elfman composed 100% by his own hand prior to orchestration or session recording. All of the inflections, flourishes, & zingers are there. This is the proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was the true & ONLY composer for those early scores. 

But why does his later comic book scores sound so different from his earlier ones? He explains that he NEVER listens to his previous works because he wants to move forward as an artist, not look back. He also is vehemently opposed to temp-tracks (temporary music editors & directors place on a work-in-progress). This means that Elfman rejects out of principle if a director tells him that he/she wants the movie music to sound like "Edward Scissorhands", "Beetlejuice", etc. and places those old music cues to the working cut. He will intentionally avoid repeating himself. Bartek & Walker's contributions are important elements, but the credit for this classic movie score is entirely Elfman's."


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## Synthpopbean (Nov 18, 2021)

Crowe said:


> There's a whole thread on this and it's never going to be 'cleared up'. Mike Verta and Jay Asher say their 'friends wrote more'. These same friends and Elfman say otherwise in public. That's it.
> 
> It's an aggravating game of 'he said she said' that has neither beginning nor end. You either take the composers/orchestrators at their word or you don't.


Those are the guys I'm referring to. I was chill til I saw those by those 2 guys again. I attempted to message Verta to see if he was perhaps mixing it up with the orchestration only but they're inactive or something.


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## Synthpopbean (Nov 18, 2021)

Markrs said:


> On this video there is a good summary of someone that though the work was not all Danny and why he changed his mind:
> 
> "I have to admit, I thought it was possible that Elfman perhaps composed the melodies, themes, & groundwork for "Batman", but the actual work was done by Bartek & (in large part adapted by) Shirley Walker. I carried that assumption because the Batman score that Walker conducted had a very unique sound that carried over to Warren Beatty's"Dick Tracy" & Elfman's theme for "The Flash" TV series. Shirley's own score for "Batman: Mask of the Phantasm" sounds peculiarly & uncannily similar to the Elfman music.
> 
> ...


Wow! Thank you for this!!


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## Synthpopbean (Nov 18, 2021)

Markrs said:


> His work tapes that came out of the software "Performer" are on YouTube, you can hear his music before it was orchestrated or performed.
> 
> 
> 
> https://youtube.com/user/TheDetective86


very appreciated! And as a fan, a very cool thing to have.


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## Synthpopbean (Nov 18, 2021)

Crowe said:


> Oh wow.
> 
> OP, don't you think it would be good to be more like Elsa?
> 
> ...


😂 I wish. I try.


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## Synthpopbean (Nov 18, 2021)

kmaster said:


> You started threads on this very topic both here and at gears̶l̶u̶t̶z̶space in *2019* with, IMO, rather conclusive answers, both by people who knew/know him firsthand and by people who know the industry well. If neither of those threads are satisfying to you, then I'm not sure what will be.
> 
> I cannot speak to 'certain circles going berserk'—I have never seen such—but I feel like the whole thing was a classist hint-of-a-rumor back in the late 80s and, like all rumors, will continue on in spite of preponderance of evidence to the contrary. It's no more productive a conversation than "did John Williams STEAL the _Star Wars_ score from Holst/Korngold/Prokofiev/etc."...which, _of course not_ (for a zillion reasons), although he was clearly _inspired_ by elements of their music.
> But let's assume for a second this hypothetical opposite: Danny Elfman's name was attached to something he had no hand whatsoever in.
> ...


Sadly, it would change how I see his music and in Boingo. They really meant a lot to me in my growing up and life. It sounds stupid, and I don't care. Many can separate the artist thing, but i never could. 
As for berserk, talking about fellow Boingo fans. NONE of us can bring it up without a clique of other fans going at our throats to not bring up the topic. So, many have let it go, others like me haven't. Then I do, then someone else brings it up again.


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## Markrs (Nov 18, 2021)

For ease I have created a playlist of Danny's Batman worktapes that were created on Performer (the first track is recorded by an orchestra but was unused) in 1988. It really shows his compositional strengths working with such a limited sound palette within Performer. I really recommend listening to these.


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## Synthpopbean (Nov 18, 2021)

kmaster said:


> You started threads on this very topic both here and at gears̶l̶u̶t̶z̶space in *2019* with, IMO, rather conclusive answers, both by people who knew/know him firsthand and by people who know the industry well. If neither of those threads are satisfying to you, then I'm not sure what will be.
> 
> I cannot speak to 'certain circles going berserk'—I have never seen such—but I feel like the whole thing was a classist hint-of-a-rumor back in the late 80s and, like all rumors, will continue on in spite of preponderance of evidence to the contrary. It's no more productive a conversation than "did John Williams STEAL the _Star Wars_ score from Holst/Korngold/Prokofiev/etc."...which, _of course not_ (for a zillion reasons), although he was clearly _inspired_ by elements of their music.
> But let's assume for a second this hypothetical opposite: Danny Elfman's name was attached to something he had no hand whatsoever in.
> ...


So it dawned on me later, that oh! maybe people like VERTA etc actually are getting the SCORING and orchestration part mixed up, like I did in the beginning ...most of us non-composers don't know the differences and I guess in the industry there's a grey area of what's considered what.


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## Synthpopbean (Nov 18, 2021)

Markrs said:


> For ease I have created a playlist of Banny's Batman worktapes that were created on Performer in 1988. It really shows his compositional strengths working with such a limited sound palette within Performer. I really recommend listening to these.



Wow! That's Danny on those?

Its from the boxset? I never got that. Yet.


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## Markrs (Nov 18, 2021)

Synthpopbean said:


> Wow! That's Danny on those?


Yep, they were released as part of the 25th anniversary of Batman


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## Synthpopbean (Nov 18, 2021)

Markrs said:


> Yep, they were released as part of the 25th anniversary of Batman


Thank you for sharing this.


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## Markrs (Nov 18, 2021)

Synthpopbean said:


> Thank you for sharing this.


No probs, I hope it helps.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Nov 18, 2021)

The desire for authenticity is healthy and noble.

We are also well aware of the public-facing knavery compelled by NDAs and grifting inherent in securing future work, calls into question many of the industry titan’s apologists. (At best, this genre of music making is excused as a “collaborative” artform.)

Informed, sober-minded observers know there is a *clear* difference in the number of contributions the great film composers make in titles that bear their name, and those Shostakovich or Beethoven made in scores that bore theirs.

If one seeks authenticity, devotion to the latter will better enrich that pursuit.


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## Synthpopbean (Nov 18, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> The desire for authenticity is healthy and noble.
> 
> We are also well aware of the public-facing knavery compelled by NDAs and grifting inherent in securing future work, calls into question many of the industry titan’s apologists. (At best, this genre of music making is excused as a “collaborative” artform.)
> 
> ...


I don't understand. And what's NDAs?


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## stonzthro (Nov 18, 2021)

As an added insight, I have a good friend who was a copyist on lots of Danny's 90's films and said Danny was really quick and creative when it came to needing to make orchestra changes in the studio; so much so that this friend who had also done lots of orchestration, was impressed. A hack can't do that kind of thing, trust me on this...

Best of luck finding your answers - sometimes we just have to enjoy things for what they are.


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## Markrs (Nov 18, 2021)

Synthpopbean said:


> I don't understand. And what's NDAs?


Non Disclosure Agreement. Basically a contract that stops you talking about something you know or are involved in.


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## doctoremmet (Nov 18, 2021)

Synthpopbean said:


> I don't understand. And what's NDAs?


Non Disclosure Agreements: a contractual obligation to keep confidential things secret.

Ergo: a lot of things you seem very eager to find definitive answers to, will never be disclosed.


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## b_elliott (Nov 18, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Non Disclosure Agreements: a contractual obligation to keep confidential things secret.
> 
> Ergo: a lot of things you seem very eager to find definitive answers to, will never be disclosed.


Based on two almost exact responses at the exact same time, there now looms the bigger question: Are you and @Markrs twins separated at birth?


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## Henu (Nov 18, 2021)

Crowe said:


> Mike Verta and Jay Asher


Yeah, and now read that again a couple of times.


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## Crowe (Nov 18, 2021)

Henu said:


> Yeah, and now read that again a couple of times.


Did I make an error?

I'd rather you just tell me if I did.


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## Synthpopbean (Nov 18, 2021)

Henu said:


> Yeah, and now read that again a couple of times.





stonzthro said:


> As an added insight, I have a good friend who was a copyist on lots of Danny's 90's films and said Danny was really quick and creative when it came to needing to make orchestra changes in the studio; so much so that this friend who had also done lots of orchestration, was impressed. A hack can't do that kind of thing, trust me on this...
> 
> Best of luck finding your answers - sometimes we just have to enjoy things for what they are.


Cool!!!! Like the instrument ideas and things? 
He indeed has a unique ear for that. Very evident in Boingo and the Mystic Knights. And his current solo album, which is, quite possibly the greatest album made in the past 20 years or so. But that's just my opinion.


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## Synthpopbean (Nov 18, 2021)

Henu said:


> Yeah, and now read that again a couple of times.


Verta was the person who posted the stuff in the archives that had me re-freaked out. Hence all this, mainly.


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## Henu (Nov 18, 2021)

Crowe said:


> Did I make an error?
> 
> I'd rather you just tell me if I did.


Not at all, but let's just say that as far I've noticed (and I surely can't be the only one), those guys are sometimes uhm....rather keen on dropping something else than their keys.


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## Markrs (Nov 18, 2021)

@Synthpopbean i hope the some of the material and links we have posted help you come to a resolution on this (do follow some of the links I posted as there is a lot of extra information in them).

I think this thread highlights how good Danny's work is and what a wonderful ear he has for creating great film music.


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## Synthpopbean (Nov 18, 2021)

Markrs said:


> @Synthpopbean i hope the some of the material and links we have posted help you come to a resolution on this (do follow some of the links I posted as there is a lot of extra information in them).
> 
> I think this thread highlights how good Danny's work is and what a wonderful ear he has for creating great film music.


Yes! They have! And I highly appreciate it!  
Thank you!


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## doctoremmet (Nov 18, 2021)

Henu said:


> Not at all, but let's just say that as far I've noticed (and I surely can't be the only one), those guys are sometimes uhm....rather keen on dropping something else than their keys.


Verta has a lot of great opinions for sure. A man I wholeheartedly trust. So, did JFK jr. rise from the grave yet?


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## Synthpopbean (Nov 18, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Verta has a lot of great opinions for sure. A man I wholeheartedly trust. So, did JFK jr. rise from the grave yet?


So I assume he talks bullcrap? Hahaha. If so, this eases my mind then.. Cos it was this was the thread, with Verta making wild accusations that caused me to re-topic initially. I hadn't seen it previously. 





Batman!! elfman!!! full score!!!! out now!!!


Does anyone know who did the actual orchestration on this? On the CD it says its produced by Danny Elfman and Steve Bartek. Additional orchestrations by Shirley Walker and Scott Smalley. Hard to know who did what though. I think Bartek did the bulk of the orchestration. Shirley was more...




vi-control.net


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## Markrs (Nov 18, 2021)

Synthpopbean said:


> So I assume he talks bullcrap? Hahaha. If so, this eases my mind then.. Cos it was this was the thread, with Verta making wild accusations that caused me to re-topic initially. I hadn't seen it previously.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think you can ignore Mike Verta, he has often spouted a lot of conspiracy theories as well. 

I hope the worktapes YouTube playlist I posted shows that all the main composition and midi orchestration was done by Danny in "Performer".


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## Synthpopbean (Nov 18, 2021)

Markrs said:


> I think you can ignore Mike Verta, he has often spouted a lot of conspiracy theories as well.
> 
> I hope the worktapes YouTube playlist I posted shows that all the main composition and midi orchestration was done by Danny in "Performer".


Oh thank God. Good.

Yes! Listening through the full list now.  These are so impressive. The Waltz one is so sweet.


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## dcoscina (Nov 18, 2021)

Nope Elfman was inspired by Herrmann’s Journey to the Centre of the Earth


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## Markrs (Nov 18, 2021)

Below is a bit about composers borrowing from others. It has been going on for centuries.

Borrowing from classical music or very old soundtracks is very common in film music. For example John Williams has done this many times:













But classical composers have also done it:





And of course modern artist have done it:





Due to the nature of art there is no such thing as totally original, everyone borrows from each other either intentionally or unintentionally. There are only so many ways you can write music and for film music in particular there is very limited time in which you have to do it in.

So yes he was probably influenced consciously or subconsciously by that piece of music, but remember he would have written over 60 minutes of music for that film.


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## dcoscina (Nov 18, 2021)

I wasn’t dissing Elfman. I have no problem with him taking inspiration from Herrmann. He admits to being inspired by Herrmann and Prokofiev growing up. I love his Batman score. I was just pointing out where some of his theme derived inspiration from.


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## AudioLoco (Nov 19, 2021)

I was aware of many of the JW examples and some others but...

All those times I tried to avoid that string of 4 notes in fear of doing a "Batman"..... and now....... I just heard this Gottfried Huppertz - which I wasn't aware of?!?!
Why did I bother?!! 

It's incredible how composers shamelessly just go for it... In the Pop/Rock world you have to be a 1000 times more careful. (Excluding the Zepp hahah, but they can!)

(Not a moral point made, just factual I guess)


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## AudioLoco (Nov 19, 2021)

As for the travesty of having to prove music paternity and writing skill to snobbish doubters who think orchestral music (or music of any kind) is only an academic discipline that cannot be mastered by a very talented and gifted ear... That is such a sad spectacle to behold.

Music is music, at the end of the day, not quantum physics. Ear, experience and "Duende", the human ingenious nature are the main factores, the rest are just extras.

The guy is a genius, doesn't even need formal education for how good he is, live with it Verta and others... Some can some can't...


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## AudioLoco (Nov 19, 2021)

As for Prince's contribution to the film... 

That is the cringy part that feels dated and shmalzy and kitsch, so out of place.
(I think even some Prince fans might agree)

Luckily the actual score redefined a whole genre for decades.


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## Markrs (Nov 19, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> The guy is a genius, doesn't even need formal education for how good he is, live with it Verta and others... Some can some can't...


What is more funny is that others have said Bartek and Walker did a lot of the work because Elfman didn't have the formal academic or conservatory education. However neither Bartek nor Walker had that formal education which just rubbishes their whole premise.


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## AudioLoco (Nov 19, 2021)

Markrs said:


> What is more funny is that others have said Bartek and Walker did a lot of the work because Elfman didn't have the formal academic or conservatory education. However neither Bartek nor Walker had that formal education which just rubbishes their whole premise.


that is hilarious! I wasn't aware of that...


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## Markrs (Nov 19, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> that is hilarious! I wasn't aware of that...



"I am self-taught, and although that's not something I'm proud of, neither am I ashamed of it. While you, Mr. Rubenstein are incorrect in stating that I studied with Christopher Young or anyone else, you are absolutely presumptuous in assuming that Mr. Bartek and Ms. Walker are conservatory-trained. In fact, Mr. Bartek never attended a conservatory, and Ms. Walker, who in addition to being a great conductor and orchestrator is a fine composer in her own right, never finished college, and considers herself to be primarily self-taught as well. "​


Keyboard magazine, letter



(apologies for the bold text I couldn't get rid of it for some reason even stripping out the html tags)


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## quickbrownf0x (Nov 19, 2021)

My question is - who gives a rat's arse (and for _that _long, jesus!)? As long as everybody gets credited and/or a decent agreement was made where everybody got their fair share, was compensated for their work - I don't see much of a problem.

With large projects like a big-budget movie or tv-show, you're bound to ask for help, because it's just too much work for one person (unless you think you're Prince or something and have oodles of time). I don't think there's any shame in that whatsoever.

Then there's the joy of working together and coming up with new ideas, solving problems. I'm working on a large cue at the moment and even though I could've tracked my crappy guitar parts myself, instead I asked you guys - got some fantastic help and the end result is way better than I could've ever done. Paid the guy, talked about credits, rights, etc. and everybody's happy. Also made a new friend and we're talking about collaborating more often in the future.

I'm trying to say that working with other people is sometimes not only necessary, it's more than often loads of fun too and you can better results, because you bring out the best in each other.
For me, I've learned I can do a few things well, but (most) other things - not so much. For instance, if I need either great advice on a VST sale, I call up @Markrs.

Same with music, composition. I was trained to write for an orchestra and scoring to picture, but if you'd ask me to produce a pop song I'd be screwed, even though the underlying rules are basically the same. Did that a few times and those records actually did really well, but if I hadn't asked one of my old college mates to help out it would've all gone to sh*t.

I remember doing this commercial for an insurance company where I came up with melodies, some harmony, wrote a bunch of string parts and he'd do all the production and mixing. Gluing everything together. We'd then present the end result _together_. Had a blast.

Then when it comes to film composers borrowing from others - that stuff happens, but also because they were asked to copy the temp track and/or 'make it sound like so-and-so'. So they do, often with a little variation. That's called being a good friend and collaborator and trying to look beyond your own ego. Whatever works best to help tell the story. Also; there's a limit on how many original motifs and themes you can write, right? Even though it's a crazy high number, it's there (I think).

In short - give Elfman a break. What I wouldn't give to have Shirley Walker help out with orchestrations!


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## Synthpopbean (Nov 19, 2021)

I'm still thinking people who bash him are getting the actual "coming up with the full melody and structure" mixed up with the orchestration part. I have no issue with the fact he uses orchestration help. He openly admits it! If the others secretly wrote the melodies and everything and he lied about that, then I'd find that sad and messed up, and that's what people keep accusing -- People like that Verta guy that I read on here, anywhere, and fans who used to be Elfman fans that go after us current fans.
And yes, Bartek was also in Boingo with him..and supposedly only took like 1 class of orchestration. My whole original question, which was pretty much cleared up, was are people like Verta confusing the rumors, as in the orchestration part as in the actual "writing the full melodies" part.


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## doctoremmet (Nov 19, 2021)

Erm… is Danny Elfman your dad or something?


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## Synthpopbean (Nov 19, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Erm… is Danny Elfman your dad or something?


Ha !!! I wish!!!!!!


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## doctoremmet (Nov 19, 2021)

Synthpopbean said:


> Never heard Elfman mention him in his influences, though.


Let’s face it… if there is no source whatsoever out there quoting Elfman referencing him as an influence… maybe just MAYBE….



Spoiler



we may just never know exactly what happened, and have to move on in life…


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## icecoolpool (Nov 19, 2021)

Synthpopbean said:


> [post deleted]


Wow, interesting, I haven´t heard the music from "Die Nibelungen" before. As there was no "copyright renewal" found after a thorough search of the "Catalog of Copyright Entries", this music is almost certainly in the public domain, meaning Elfman would have been able to adapt it and use it in his own work without legal problems.

I actually prefer Elfman´s take on this section as it develops it in a more cinematic way, wheras with Huppertz, it seems to merely be a short extract of a much longer romantic piece. That said, Huppertz deserves a lot of credit for writing the piece in the first place.


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## Kent (Nov 19, 2021)

Synthpopbean said:


> I never heard that piece before. That is a beautiful one.


Sounds like Herrmann was just stealing from Bruckner


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## doctoremmet (Nov 19, 2021)

__googles “Bruckner who did he steal from”__


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## Kent (Nov 19, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> __googles “Bruckner who did he steal from”__


Another ardent 'Bruckner-stealer' was Al Newman


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## doctoremmet (Nov 19, 2021)

Synthpopbean said:


> Its just the way I am sometimes. I yam what I yam. Ha


Here is some excellent synthpop to get your mind of things:


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## dcoscina (Nov 19, 2021)

Markrs said:


> What is more funny is that others have said Bartek and Walker did a lot of the work because Elfman didn't have the formal academic or conservatory education. However neither Bartek nor Walker had that formal education which just rubbishes their whole premise.


Walker did have formal training but never got her degree. At least that's what I have read.


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## Synthpopbean (Nov 19, 2021)

kmaster said:


> Sounds like Herrmann was just stealing from Bruckner



Woah! Just looked at your website. You've worked for Danny and Trent/Atticus!! Impressive!!!!!!!!!! And lucky!!!


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## Synthpopbean (Nov 19, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> Walker did have formal training but never got her degree. At least that's what I have read.


I read she was self taught.


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## dcoscina (Nov 19, 2021)

Synthpopbean said:


> I never heard that piece before. That is a beautiful one.


I think it's a loving ode to Herrmann. It works perfectly for the film too. The illusion of the sole music genius writing for film is just that; smoke and mirrors. Hollywood scores have always involved many people to get these films out. Elfman just got more grief because he was a rock guy and challenged the establishment. Clearly, he can score films. At this point, he's authored more than 100 film scores. His style remains consistent over the span of his career. If someone was ghostwriting for him, there would be less consistency. 

Elfman in the late 80s and early 90s produced some truly outstanding scores (Batman, Edward Scissorhands, Dick Tracy, Nightmare before Xmas)


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## Synthpopbean (Nov 19, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> I think it's a loving ode to Herrmann. It works perfectly for the film too. The illusion of the sole music genius writing for film is just that; smoke and mirrors. Hollywood scores have always involved many people to get these films out. Elfman just got more grief because he was a rock guy and challenged the establishment. Clearly, he can score films. At this point, he's authored more than 100 film scores. His style remains consistent over the span of his career. If someone was ghostwriting for him, there would be less consistency.
> 
> Elfman in the late 80s and early 90s produced some truly outstanding scores (Batman, Edward Scissorhands, Dick Tracy, Nightmare before Xmas)


Yup. We get that now. Well, I get that now. And people back then seeing shame in composing on synth/sequencers and getting the orchestration part mixed up with the actual composing. 
Which I assume many, then, mistook. Or consider those that can't orchestrate or conduct are not legit. That's bullshit to me. There should be no rules or regulations on ART.. or anyone to dictate what is and what isn't.


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## dcoscina (Nov 19, 2021)

Synthpopbean said:


> Yup. We get that now. Well, I get that now. And people back then seeing shame in composing on synth/sequencers and getting the orchestration part mixed up with the actual composing.
> Which I assume many, then, mistook. Or consider those that can't orchestrate or conduct are not legit. That's bullshit to me. There should be no rules or regulations on ART.. or anyone to dictate what is and what isn't.


Even trained composers need help due to the deadlines imposed on scoring a film. I remember a story that Goldsmith would slave over doing full orchestrated scores for his tv work and finally he gave in to the studio who said "jerry, we have people on staff who can orchestrate your work". 

There are so many things that go into scoring a film that takes time. having orchestrators and copyists is necessary and has been since the advent of Hollywood studio filmmaking.


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## ed buller (Nov 19, 2021)

Don't forget Scott Smalley's contribution too !

best

ed


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## dcoscina (Nov 19, 2021)

Synthpopbean said:


> I read she was self taught.


Elfman's response to Micah Rubenstein in Keyboard 1990 (I have the original issue actually) was "Ms Walker never received her degree in music and considers herself largely self-taught". She had some formal training, however.


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## Synthpopbean (Nov 19, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> Even trained composers need help due to the deadlines imposed on scoring a film. I remember a story that Goldsmith would slave over doing full orchestrated scores for his tv work and finally he gave in to the studio who said "jerry, we have people on staff who can orchestrate your work".
> 
> There are so many things that go into scoring a film that takes time. having orchestrators and copyists is necessary and has been since the advent of Hollywood studio filmmaking.


I am now seeing just how intense and insane the soundtrack industry is. Sounds like a nightmare if anything. Definitely not something I would ever want to pursue or anywhere in the industry. Way too much drama and just....too much stress. Way too much stress.


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## Synthpopbean (Nov 19, 2021)

E


dcoscina said:


> I think it's a loving ode to Herrmann. It works perfectly for the film too. The illusion of the sole music genius writing for film is just that; smoke and mirrors. Hollywood scores have always involved many people to get these films out. Elfman just got more grief because he was a rock guy and challenged the establishment. Clearly, he can score films. At this point, he's authored more than 100 film scores. His style remains consistent over the span of his career. If someone was ghostwriting for him, there would be less consistency.
> 
> Elfman in the late 80s and early 90s produced some truly outstanding scores (Batman, Edward Scissorhands, Dick Tracy, Nightmare before Xmas)





dcoscina said:


> I think it's a loving ode to Herrmann. It works perfectly for the film too. The illusion of the sole music genius writing for film is just that; smoke and mirrors. Hollywood scores have always involved many people to get these films out. Elfman just got more grief because he was a rock guy and challenged the establishment. Clearly, he can score films. At this point, he's authored more than 100 film scores. His style remains consistent over the span of his career. If someone was ghostwriting for him, there would be less consistency.
> 
> Elfman in the late 80s and early 90s produced some truly outstanding scores (Batman, Edward Scissorhands, Dick Tracy, Nightmare before Xmas)


Scissorhands and Nightmare are pure artistic beauty. Will forever be timeless.

Pee-Wee and Beetlejuice are very unique as well. Its like Oingo kind of, in their stylings.


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## Synthpopbean (Nov 19, 2021)

I appreciate everyone's input and insights. I won't go on about it anymore. Think all that is to be said has been. Actually enjoy learning new stuff, too. Things I never really thought about before being a "normal". Most of us watch movies, have favorite scores, and never even know or think twice, about the craziness and intensity that goes on behind it.

And again, my thing wasn't about him using Bartek, Walker, and whoever to orchestrate. I was just wondering if people like that Verta guy were confusing two separate things (melodies vs orchestration that he sends off to Bartek and Walker) in their rumor mill hearsays. But that's been cleared up, too. Those Batman midi sessions mock ups are SO Danny and no denying that. He obviously wrote those melodies and arrangements. Really was cool hearing those!!!! And personally, I see nothing wrong with his process with Bartek and co. If those rumors went about then that wildly, then I assume stuff got more misconstrued second hand. He never denied he had their orchestration help.

I only brought this topic back up because I saw elsewhere completely unrelated this was mentioned again, and that supposedly Walker told them she wrote it then I searched something over here and then I saw here in the archives where that Verta guy and that other guy saying Shirley told them she wrote it (supposedly), and something on another forum about some other guy involved (don't remember, think it was about the Smalley guy) wrote some cue. So naturally I asked on here again, and wondering if all these rumors that he never even wrote the melodies and arrangements (like by Verta) were getting it mixed up with "orchestration". Apparently this subject gets brought up often on here not just by me? Ha! But wasn't that I was re-asking the same exact question. But it looked that way.
I was okay with the responses I had last time. Until all this supposedly "directly from Shirley" and other guy thing I read. That was all. Obviously those were confusing the two things (composing vs orchestration) or they were telling complete and utter bullcrap. Everyone's cleared it up. I am chill. 

As for the other topic, he made it his own musical organism and articulately so and no harm. Fair game.

But keep discussion going if you want. About whatever.

Has anyone here heard his new solo rock/industrial album at all? Its mind-blowingly good. I'd actually like to see him continue more on that path for a while. Not that I don't love the movie scores, just we all miss his regular music.


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## doctoremmet (Nov 19, 2021)

And THAT ladies & gentlemen concludes our journey.


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## Synthpopbean (Nov 19, 2021)

Danny's new rock album. It is so so good.
There should be the full playlist when you click on the link.


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## NukillerMedia (Nov 29, 2021)

Synthpopbean said:


> I'm still thinking people who bash him are getting the actual "coming up with the full melody and structure" with the orchestration part. I have no issue with the fact he uses orchestration help. He openly admits it! If the others secretly wrote the melodies and everything and he lied about that, then I'd find that sad and messed up, and that's what people keep accusing. People like that Verta guy that I read on here, anywhere, and fans who used to be Elfman fans that go after us current fans.
> And yes, Bartek was also in Boingo with him..and supposedly only took like 1 class of orchestration. My whole original question, which was pretty much cleared up, was are people like Verta confusing the rumors, as in the orchestration part as in the actual "writing the full melodies" part.


there is essentially one melody in that score and permutations of it. Modern film scoring is essentially arranging very basic melodic blocks using a lexicon of already done musical devices that work for the film. scoring is not making melodies That sound super sweet.well, actually, around the time Hans Zimmer started, that was considered cool as the audience was completely unfamiliar with any classical music in any way.

but Melodie’s …. They have all been done. Scoring is putting music to picture and knowing what will and won’t work. Did elfman compose the minor 6 ? Does it matter. He had enough people around him to help him “ score “ it.

i doubt that anyone who hasn’t studied scores from the greats , i mean he couldn’t read bass clef for god sake, and understands the concept of how to use thematic blocks and manipulate them for a hour + work and render something that doesn’t sound like someone just riffing at a piano could pull off what the audience heard. That sort of help is hard to define and this is probably what verta is talking about. telling someome, hey , something great composers do is use the same motif but slightly different for another Doesn’t get you a recognized credit. Telling someone that using odd time signatures can help with action / chase scene as anything that will make someone nod their head in time is a sign your score broke the 4th wall, Unless that is your intent, doesn’t get a credit. 

but that is the crux of the issue. having to explain to most people, most musicians what you did and what you had help with , I mean nobidy would understand and so it was either , yes, I wrote the music, or no. Those were his only choices. 

anyways, working in that industry at that level for 2-3 years is pretty much a formative education in music and if he was completely unprepared going in, you don’t last as long as he did if you can’t deliver.


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