# For Those Who Are Spiritually Inclined



## Deleted member 422019 (Jun 11, 2017)

If you're a materialist, cynic or simply someone who has knee-jerk reactions to everything involving religion or spirituality, the links below are probably not for you. But if you have an inner sense that our world is in a profound state of incompleteness, in a state of fear, greed and confusion--yet we have the capacity to evolve and move culture to a much better level--the links below might be of interest to you.

I hope whoever is ready for this revelation finds as much meaning and joy as I have by reading it and taking it to heart.

Here's the table of contents:
http://www.urantia.org/urantia-book/read-urantia-book-online

http://www.urantia.org/


----------



## NYC Composer (Jun 11, 2017)

What if you have profound, long considered negative reactions to the idea that magical thinking is or has been a positive force in the development of humanity? That, overall, it's more often a divisive force that pits people against each other in camps of differing and often warring beliefs?

I congratulate you for having found something that works for you, brings you joy, improves your life. However, your characterization of others who might not have any interest in exploring YOUR beliefs as materialist, cynical or a knee jerk reactive thinker is EXACTLY illustrative of the point I made about divisiveness.


----------



## Deleted member 422019 (Jun 11, 2017)

NYC Composer said:


> What if you have profound, long considered negative reactions to the idea that magical thinking is or has been a positive force in the development of humanity? That, overall, it's more often a divisive force that pits people against each other in camps of differing and often warring beliefs?
> 
> I congratulate you for having found something that works for you, brings you joy, improves your life. However, your characterization of others who might not have any interest in exploring YOUR beliefs as materialist, cynical or a knee jerk reactive thinker is EXACTLY illustrative of the point I made about divisiveness.



Who is talking about magical thinking? I certainly am not. Not every unprovable phenomena is magic, or magical in any way. Because humans do not understand the cause of something does not mean that thinking about it is magical or wishful thinking.. If you're neither cynical, a materialist or a knee-jerk reactor to religion and it's not for you just don't read it, no conflict, no problem.


----------



## NYC Composer (Jun 11, 2017)

jsg said:


> Who is talking about magical thinking? I certainly am not. Not every unprovable phenomena is magic, or magical in any way. Because humans do not understand the cause of something does not mean that thinking about it is magical or wishful thinking.. If you're neither cynical, a materialist or a knee-jerk reactor to religion and it's not for you just don't read it, no conflict, no problem.


I clicked on your link. We definitely have different definitions of magical thinking. I am not a cynic, I am a materialist to some small degree as every human is, and I don't think in knee jerk terms. I reject your premise. Have a nice day.


----------



## Deleted member 422019 (Jun 11, 2017)

NYC Composer said:


> I clicked on your link. We definitely have different definitions of magical thinking. I am not a cynic, I am a materialist to some small degree as every human is, and I don't think in knee jerk terms. I reject your premise. Have a nice day.



What you reject and what you accept is entirely your business. Reality is not going away. Have a nice day.


----------



## NYC Composer (Jun 11, 2017)

What you accept and reject is your business as well....but thanks for the kind offer of your reality. I'm grateful for mine. Have a nicer day. (This is fun!)


----------



## markleake (Jun 12, 2017)

For a bit of context: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Urantia_Book

My summary:
It's generally viewed as a remarkably well-written collection of fictional papers about religion/enlightenment. The novel sections are imaginative, but a significant component of it's content is seemingly sourced (without attribution) from the publications of other authors that were contemporaries at the time.

Christian perspective (because it spends a significant amount of effort purporting to build mostly on Christianity):
Yeah, kind of heretical.


----------



## NYC Composer (Jun 12, 2017)

There's a little LRH in there as well.


----------



## markleake (Jun 12, 2017)

NYC Composer said:


> There's a little LRH in there as well.


Yes, although from what I read about it, it's somewhat better constructed than what LRH came up with. It also presents an "out" for inaccuracies in it's content, which I'm sure LRH if he was alive would be kicking himself that he didn't think of it.


----------



## NYC Composer (Jun 12, 2017)

I perused a bit (being a non-cynical non-knee jerker.) There was a whiff of interplanetary goodness. Similar time period as well.


----------



## markleake (Jun 12, 2017)

Personally I don't have the patience to read it, but I do find this kind of thing interesting in an objective kind of way. I think people at the time were genuinely enamoured by this kind of material. Real space travel and the science fiction literature of the time inspired a lot of imaginative ideas. We hadn't yet landed on the moon, but it was something that was heating up at the time, so you can understand why people would be influenced by this kind of stuff.


----------



## NYC Composer (Jun 12, 2017)

Didn't turn out so well for LRH worshippers. Of course, that's just my opinion. Seems to have worked out for Mark Isham, Travolta, Cruise, Van Susteren, Giovanni Ribisi, Kirstie Alley, Juliette Lewis, etc etc. It's just those willing billion year slaves in the cargo holds that make me a tad queasy.

For the record- I'm not saying this is any of that, so hold your fire, jsg.


----------



## Deleted member 422019 (Jun 12, 2017)

NYC Composer said:


> Didn't turn out so well for LRH worshippers. Of course, that's just my opinion. Seems to have worked out for Mark Isham, Travolta, Cruise, Van Susteren, Giovanni Ribisi, Kirstie Alley, Juliette Lewis, etc etc. It's just those willing billion year slaves in the cargo holds that make me a tad queasy.
> 
> For the record- I'm not saying this is any of that, so hold your fire, jsg.



I've been studying this book for over 30 years. I've read the entire book twice and, of course, it resonates with me or I wouldn't waste time reading and studying it. It's unique, it takes the very best of human wisdom traditions, and _freely uses ideas that humans have given expression to when it can_. But when no human concepts suffice to explain something about a larger reality, it resorts to an originality of language that is hard to match. Stockhausen studied this book throughout his life as well. The book is NOT infallible, much of the science in the Urantia Book is controversial because some of the science is wrong (like Mercury's rotational axis being in sync with it's orbit around the sun) while other scientific statements were later shown to be accurate predictions (when the UB was published the theory of tectonic plates was unknown). The geology, history, evolution of government and physical evolution on our planet is like nothing you'll ever read, the sheer detail is enormous. But the gem of the book is essentially spiritual, moral and ethical, it deals with origins, history and destiny, of the individual, and of the planet and on upward to cosmic levels. It is not a cult, there are no churches, no leaders, no rituals, no real organization other than the few groups that publish the book and small groups of people who study, argue and debate it. It is entirely pro-science and pro-scientific. In these teachings, true religion and true science are not in conflict with each other. It defines _faith_ not so much as belief, but as _trust_, trusting that the universe is progressive, evolutionary, governed and friendly.

And yes, NYC Composer, we are all, by necessity, somewhat material, we have to be, we live in material bodies on a material world. The material, physical world is real, but I believe that the inner life of human beings happens to be more real.

Here's a quote from the science-fiction writer Philip K. Dick:
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

The Urantia Book is critical of every major organized religion on the planet yet supports the core truths of all of them, i.e., that love, mercy, compassion and empathy are the most important values in the universe, on our planet and on every other planet (according to the UB at present there are about 7 trillion inhabited, or inhabitable, planets.) The 4th section of the book deals exclusively with the teachings of Jesus. I would not call it Christian, I'd call it Jesusonian; the UB calls modern Christianity the "cocoon in which the teachings of Jesus sleep". If the actual teachings of Jesus were put into practice on our planet we'd see a cultural, social, spiritual and moral transformation that would help us resolve some of the most difficult problems that we face. For example, if each human made a prolonged and serious effort to be kind, fair, patient and just, we'd see, over a few generations, an accelerated moral, ethical and social up-stepping of our world.

I am all for the robust critique of organized religion and the racism, sexism, exploitation, superstition, nationalism and materialism that they have often been party to. But real religion is personal, by definition it cannot be organizational, it is about personal experience and trust in forces and aspects of reality we will never understand through reason and science alone. Music is a great example. One could go into a science lab and analyze all the amplitudes and frequencies and logical patterns of a Bach fugue or a Mahler symphony. One could analyze the harmonic progressions, the cadences, etc. But it is through listening to it and experiencing our feelings and emotions that the meaning and value of the work is revealed, it not irrational, it is super-rational, the senses are being informed of a greater reality, as great art, poetry and literature often do for us. We all know that science and technology have made incredible advances in the 20th and 21st centuries, yet we still know much more about physical health than we do about happiness. Our world is heading into a very retrogressive period in spite of all our scientific progress; obviously something else is required for civilization to work.

We are all free to dismiss and/or reject the teachings of this book. I will not do that because after 35 years of studying it and 45 years of daily meditation, I am convinced that human development is in a very lop-sided, unbalanced place and that either we develop a cosmic perspective on our origins, history and destiny or we could very well fail as a species. The thing I love most about the teachings of the Urantia Book is that there is absolutely not a hint of coercion, nothing involving punishment or scolding, or guilt, or any of the primitive ideas humans have held about God and the cosmos. If you want to evolve, grow and change into the very best version of yourself, there is not only nothing that will stop you, but you'll get help as well. But if you don't want to grow, change and evolve, if you find that you are perfect and complete just the way you are, that too is fine, nothing and nobody (well maybe corporations and governments) will use coercion or threat to cause you to want otherwise. Our free will is a great gift, we are not free in any unlimited sense to ignore reality and the laws that govern it (you can use free will to jump off a high building, but you will not avoid the laws of gravity), but within the parameters of what free will really is, our decisions and choices profoundly effect the outworking of our lives. Free will is, to a large degree what makes us super-animals, being _relatively_ free to determine how we live and what meanings and values we choose to live by.

The ancient Greeks understood that truth, beauty and goodness all come from a single source, truth we experience on the physical plane trhough science and reason, beauty we learn about through our senses, art and nature, and goodness (righteousness) we acquire through our emotional intelligence and interpersonal relationships. This is what the UB is about: The understanding that the unique personality of each human being is the real connection to the source of all things. But in order for that to happen there has to be some kind of inner unity, where all the parts of the self work harmoniously toward a unified path, direction and goal. That is the work: acquiring integrity, integration of the complex inner life that makes us human.

I put this link up hoping someone, even if one person, finds in this book a larger perspective on their life. I have no other motive. People can believe entirely different things about reality and still trust that reality is essentially good, positive and friendly. That's what I do in spite of the fact that our primitive world, immersed in violence, prejudice, ignorance, hatred, suspicion and fear, causes it to appear otherwise. Goodness and love trump evil and stupidity. We wouldn't necessarily know that if Earth were the only place where evolution is occurring in the cosmos, but, thank God, that is not the case.


----------



## chimuelo (Jun 12, 2017)

I actually think the teachings of Jesus are an exceptional lesson in humanity.


----------



## NYC Composer (Jun 12, 2017)

never mind. I wish you good fortune on your journey.


----------



## markleake (Jun 13, 2017)

jsg said:


> I've been studying this book for over 30 years. I've read the entire book twice and, of course, it resonates with me or I wouldn't waste time reading and studying it. It's unique, it takes the very best of human wisdom traditions, and _freely uses ideas that humans have given expression to when it can_. But when no human concepts suffice to explain something about a larger reality, it resorts to an originality of language that is hard to match. Stockhausen studied this book throughout his life as well. The book is NOT infallible, much of the science in the Urantia Book is controversial because some of the science is wrong (like Mercury's rotational axis being in sync with it's orbit around the sun) while other scientific statements were later shown to be accurate predictions (when the UB was published the theory of tectonic plates was unknown). The geology, history, evolution of government and physical evolution on our planet is like nothing you'll ever read, the sheer detail is enormous. But the gem of the book is essentially spiritual, moral and ethical, it deals with origins, history and destiny, of the individual, and of the planet and on upward to cosmic levels. It is not a cult, there are no churches, no leaders, no rituals, no real organization other than the few groups that publish the book and small groups of people who study, argue and debate it. It is entirely pro-science and pro-scientific. In these teachings, true religion and true science are not in conflict with each other. It defines _faith_ not so much as belief, but as _trust_, trusting that the universe is progressive, evolutionary, governed and friendly.
> 
> And yes, NYC Composer, we are all, by necessity, somewhat material, we have to be, we live in material bodies on a material world. The material, physical world is real, but I believe that the inner life of human beings happens to be more real.
> 
> ...


So... I take all that to mean it removes personal relationship with God and the Christian doctrine of salvation from the equation?


----------



## Deleted member 422019 (Jun 13, 2017)

markleake said:


> So... I take all that to mean it removes personal relationship with God and the Christian doctrine of salvation from the equation?



Not sure of your question, could you re-phrase it?

What I think you are asking is if the Urantia Book removes personal relationship with God. If that is your question, absolutely not, it is the opposite, a relationship with God is totally personal and cannot be otherwise. Personal salvation, or more simply, the immortal soul potential, is achieved through the decisions and choices we make. Nobody who doesn't want to survive death is compelled to, and people who do want to continue, will. Freedom of choice is a major idea in the UB. In the UB, when we die, we take up exactly where we left off, spiritually, intellectually and emotionally, nothing is gained except the consciousness that one has survived death. The afterlife in the UB, is more like school, where we continue to learn and grow and create, but our new body is far more efficient and we have many more senses with each incarnation. It might take a billion years, but eventually we find God.

There is no punishment, only lessons learned about the cause-and-effect nature of existence and interpersonal relationships. Science, art, music, government, technology, social activity, humor and play, -- all are part of the afterlife, only on a much deeper level. The idea of being judged in the Christian sense is a bit different. My understanding is that yes we are judged, but with love and compassion and with the purpose that our "judgement" is there to help us see our earth lives more objectively and more honestly, so that we can understand the good that we really did, and the not-so-good, and learn from it. It's all about learning. Ask any person who has had an NDE (near-death experience) and they will confirm what the UB says about "judgement". I wouldn't mind being judged if I knew that judgement had not only my highest best interests at heart, but those judges want me to succeed. Sort of like having really mature, emotionally- and mentally healthy parents who are very wise and loving and want what's truly best for their children. Something far too many of us humans don't get nearly enough of. And even when we do, life can still be difficult.


----------



## Deleted member 422019 (Jun 13, 2017)

chimuelo said:


> I actually think the teachings of Jesus are an exceptional lesson in humanity.



Yep. The highest emotional intelligence, Jesus's spiritual genius was incomparable, this is the last paper in the book:
http://www.urantia.org/urantia-book-standardized/paper-196-faith-jesus


----------



## markleake (Jun 13, 2017)

jsg said:


> Not sure of your question, could you re-phrase it?
> 
> What I think you are asking is if the Urantia Book removes personal relationship with God. If that is your question, absolutely not, it is the opposite, a relationship with God is totally personal and cannot be otherwise. Personal salvation, or more simply, the immortal soul potential, is achieved through the decisions and choices we make. Nobody who doesn't want to survive death is compelled to, and people who do want to continue, will. Freedom of choice is a major idea in the UB. In the UB, when we die, we take up exactly where we left off, spiritually, intellectually and emotionally, nothing is gained except the consciousness that one has survived death. The afterlife in the UB, is more like school, where we continue to learn and grow and create, but our new body is far more efficient and we have many more senses with each incarnation. It might take a billion years, but eventually we find God.
> 
> There is no punishment, only lessons learned about the cause-and-effect nature of existence and interpersonal relationships. Science, art, music, government, technology, social activity, humor and play, -- all are part of the afterlife, only on a much deeper level. The idea of being judged in the Christian sense is a bit different. My understanding is that yes we are judged, but with love and compassion and with the purpose that our "judgement" is there to help us see our earth lives more objectively and more honestly, so that we can understand the good that we really did, and the not-so-good, and learn from it. It's all about learning. Ask any person who has had an NDE (near-death experience) and they will confirm what the UB says about "judgement". I wouldn't mind being judged if I knew that judgement had not only my highest best interests at heart, but those judges want me to succeed. Sort of like having really mature, emotionally- and mentally healthy parents who are very wise and loving and want what's truly best for their children. Something far too many of us humans don't get nearly enough of. And even when we do, life can still be difficult.


I guess I'll take that to mean it does dispense with a personal God relationship, and indeed with the Christian salvation doctrine. For something that seems to focuses so much on Jesus, it seems to me that it is very confused about him and totally misses the point.


----------



## Deleted member 422019 (Jun 13, 2017)

markleake said:


> I guess I'll take that to mean it does dispense with a personal God relationship, and indeed with the Christian salvation doctrine. For something that seems to focuses so much on Jesus, it seems to me that it is very confused about him and totally misses the point.



No, that is not what it means. A personal God relationship is at the core. It's only the individual unique person who can make such a decision to love God. And the Christian salvation doctrine is presented, both as early Christianity presents it, and a bit differently, in much greater detail and universality, nevertheless, the idea of a human immortal soul is most definitely part of this philosophy. Think of it as trying to synthesize and assimilate some of the most ethical, spiritualized and positive ideas that humans have come up with but update the language and presentation so modern minds a bit more self-aware and educated might find an aid in the search for meaning and perspective that people need.


----------



## markleake (Jun 14, 2017)

jsg said:


> No, that is not what it means. A personal God relationship is at the core. It's only the individual unique person who can make such a decision to love God. And the Christian salvation doctrine is presented, both as early Christianity presents it, and a bit differently, in much greater detail and universality, nevertheless, the idea of a human immortal soul is most definitely part of this philosophy. Think of it as trying to synthesize and assimilate some of the most ethical, spiritualized and positive ideas that humans have come up with but update the language and presentation so modern minds a bit more self-aware and educated might find an aid in the search for meaning and perspective that people need.


OK, thanks for that. The more you explain, the more I see the old Jedi hand-wavery trick at work. 

Of course you are free to believe what you will. But I'd suggest it's more just someone with a good understanding of Christian doctrine who has set about to mislead people with a poor understanding of those same concepts, by use of big words and big concepts. If spiritual stuff does indeed interest you as you say, then real Christianity is a breath of fresh air compared to the material you reference - it's not pretentious, nor confusing, nor hard to obtain, nor onerous, is indeed pro-science*, and is just as intellectual and engaging. Some of the teachings in the NT still tower high by modern philosophy standards, certainly well beyond the obvious problems with the philosophies you are describing.

*Ignore the politics, and suddenly Christianity becomes a lot easier to understand through the lens of modern science.


----------



## Deleted member 422019 (Jun 14, 2017)

markleake said:


> OK, thanks for that. The more you explain, the more I see the old Jedi hand-wavery trick at work.
> 
> Of course you are free to believe what you will. But I'd suggest it's more just someone with a good understanding of Christian doctrine who has set about to mislead people with a poor understanding of those same concepts, by use of big words and big concepts. If spiritual stuff does indeed interest you as you say, then real Christianity is a breath of fresh air compared to the material you reference - it's not pretentious, nor confusing, nor hard to obtain, nor onerous, is indeed pro-science*, and is just as intellectual and engaging. Some of the teachings in the NT still tower high by modern philosophy standards, certainly well beyond the obvious problems with the philosophies you are describing.
> 
> *Ignore the politics, and suddenly Christianity becomes a lot easier to understand through the lens of modern science.



I myself would not pass judgement on a 2000 page book I have not read. You're coming at it with many presumptions, conclusions and other baggage that will, of course, prevent you from discovering what's in the Urantia Book and how it offers so much that texts written thousands of years ago simply cannot offer. But go ahead and judge, this is what we humans are best at, judging what we don't understand.


----------



## markleake (Jun 14, 2017)

jsg said:


> I myself would not pass judgement on a 2000 page book I have not read. You're coming at it with many presumptions, conclusions and other baggage that will, of course, prevent you from discovering what's in the Urantia Book and how it offers so much that texts written thousands of years ago simply cannot offer. But go ahead and judge, this is what we humans are best at, judging what we don't understand.


Not at all, I haven't judged the papers. As you say, I've not read them, so how could I? You yourself make quite a harsh judgement on me by implying I am closed-minded.

I've listened openly to your answers here though, and have judged your responses (once I thought I heard enough) to be somewhat confused and misunderstanding of the source material the papers are based off, yes. Contrary to popular belief, I do have a brain and can look at things with a critical eye sometimes, as all people should. 

Judgement of religious creeds like this I think can be a very healthy thing - if they don't stand up to scrutiny and you pass it off as me being judgemental or closed minded, then that is a problem for you.


----------



## Deleted member 422019 (Jun 14, 2017)

markleake said:


> Not at all, I haven't judged the papers. As you say, I've not read them, so how could I? You yourself make quite a harsh judgement on me by implying I am closed-minded.
> 
> I've listened openly to your answers here though, and have judged your responses (once I thought I heard enough) to be somewhat confused and misunderstanding of the source material the papers are based off, yes. Contrary to popular belief, I do have a brain and can look at things with a critical eye sometimes, as all people should.
> 
> Judgement of religious creeds like this I think can be a very healthy thing - if they don't stand up to scrutiny and you pass it off as me being judgemental or closed minded, then that is a problem for you.



Perhaps you haven't judged but when I explained twice that a personal relationship with God is one of the central tenants of the Urantia Book, you still denied it and wrote: 

_I guess I'll take that to mean it does dispense with a personal God relationship, and indeed with the Christian salvation doctrine. For something that seems to focuses so much on Jesus, it seems to me that it is very confused about him and totally misses the point.
_
The confusion seems to be yours, taking a key concept and completely turning it around. Look, I have no investment in what others believe or do not believe. If what you believe helps you, and does no harm to others, I am all for it. The Urantia Book, in my opinion, is one of the greatest philosophical/spiritual works to appear on earth and it can help every human being to become more real, more loving, more courageous. It can help Jews to be better Jews, Christians to become better Christians, Muslims to become better Muslims, etc. It's view of the worth of the human being transcends race, gender, class and nationality. It embraces the brotherhood and sisterhood of humanity. It opposes all form of prejudice, hatred and exploitation. The 20th and 21st centuries are turning out the be the most violent in the history of the human race. WWI killed about 18 million people, WW2 killed about 60 million, most of them in their 20s. The Vietnam war alone killed over a million. Did Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, or atheism stop the bloodshed? Obviously not. WW3 will probably wipe out a hundred million of us, not to mention what it will do to the atmosphere, agriculture and human societies. And yet the 20th and 21st centuries have seen the most astonishing scientific and technological advances since the dawn of humanity. We are becoming the greatest threat to ourselves. New worldviews, new attitudes, new vision and a new sense of the interconnectedness of life is sorely needed. Not just new, but better. The UB, I believe, offers that to us.


----------



## Quasar (Jun 15, 2017)

jsg said:


> No, that is not what it means. A personal God relationship is at the core. It's only the individual unique person who can make such a decision to love God. And the Christian salvation doctrine is presented, both as early Christianity presents it, and a bit differently, in much greater detail and universality, nevertheless, the idea of a human immortal soul is most definitely part of this philosophy. Think of it as trying to synthesize and assimilate some of the most ethical, spiritualized and positive ideas that humans have come up with but update the language and presentation so modern minds a bit more self-aware and educated might find an aid in the search for meaning and perspective that people need.



I've read The Urantia Book, and think it's cool as another "finger pointing to the moon" (the famous Zen adage). I wouldn't take a particularly doctrinaire view on either the admittedly fascinating & detailed metaphysical description of the order of the universe, nor would I use it in on an academic level as a reliable historical reference source. But to whatever extent any religious/theological text (old or new) can help bring human souls out of the haze of atheistic materialism and expand spiritual awareness, I'm all for it. 

The delusional but widely-held belief that empiricism is the preeminent epistemological approach for discerning truth is not something that has been believed by most people in most times and places, and our developed, postmodern civilization is something of an anomaly in this regard. We need to get over it.


----------



## Deleted member 422019 (Jun 15, 2017)

Tugboat said:


> I've read The Urantia Book, and think it's cool as another "finger pointing to the moon" (the famous Zen adage). I wouldn't take a particularly doctrinaire view on either the admittedly fascinating & detailed metaphysical description of the order of the universe, nor would I use it in on an academic level as a reliable historical reference source. But to whatever extent any religious/theological text (old or new) can help bring human souls out of the haze of atheistic materialism and expand spiritual awareness, I'm all for it.
> 
> The delusional but widely-held belief that empiricism is the preeminent epistemological approach for discerning truth is not something that has been believed by most people in most times and places, and our developed, postmodern civilization is something of an anomaly in this regard. We need to get over it.



Yes, the Urantia Book isn't considered a worth-while read to many. There are numerous routes to inner unity and peace, growth, maturation and personal insight, particularly the practice of meditation. But people are unique beings, no one size fits all when it comes to belief, beliefs or belief systems. Different types of temperaments require different stimuli.


----------



## Quasar (Jun 15, 2017)

jsg said:


> Yes, the Urantia Book isn't considered a worth-while read to many. There are numerous routes to inner unity and peace, growth, maturation and personal insight, particularly the practice of meditation. But people are unique beings, no one size fits all when it comes to belief, beliefs or belief systems. Different types of temperaments require different stimuli.



True, believing in God, having a spiritual experience or conscious connection is one thing. Believing in the WAY you believe in God is just another form of ego indulgence.

But when we're talking about things like "God", or "eternity", we're necessarily alluding to that which lies outside the scope of both our physical senses and our cognitive apparatus. It's sort of like when a physicist or a mathematician tries to explain a 7 dimensional hypercube. We don't have the kind of brains that can "see" this geometry directly, anymore than an aardvark can read the New York Times. It doesn't mean that aardvarks are stupid. It just means that their brains don't perform that particular kind of cognitive activity.

This is why, say, the Catholic Church talks about the "Visible Church" vs. the "Invisible Church". The Invisible Church is pure and everlasting, while the Visible Church is just people and things, and is likely to be as flawed and corrupt as any other human institution. The Spirit is not and can never be the proprietary possession of any particular group of people or set of religious ideas. 

That MEDITATION has become a mainstream idea is IMHO one of the happier changes for the better in the post-Enlightenment period of the Western World. (I think the whole '60s psychedelic thing very much helped, as did people like Alan Watts who tried to infuse Eastern spiritual ideas into Western paradigms.) Even when various groups commodify it (the TM people for instance) and sell a package with SECRET mantras and and all of that, it still serves the good, because more people are meditating. And if we meditate, we are quite literally dropping out of the problem and into the solution, even if for most of us it's only incrementally, for a little while, and in baby steps.


----------



## Deleted member 422019 (Jun 15, 2017)

Tugboat said:


> True, believing in God, having a spiritual experience or conscious connection is one thing. Believing in the WAY you believe in God is just another form of ego indulgence.
> 
> But when we're talking about things like "God", or "eternity", we're necessarily alluding to that which lies outside the scope of both our physical senses and our cognitive apparatus. It's sort of like when a physicist or a mathematician tries to explain a 7 dimensional hypercube. We don't have the kind of brains that can "see" this geometry directly, anymore than an aardvark can read the New York Times. It doesn't mean that aardvarks are stupid. It just means that their brains don't perform that particular kind of cognitive activity.
> 
> ...



You got it! I remember the 60s phrase: tune-in, turn-on and drop-out. Now, I think the phrase has morphed into wake up, grow up, show up and clean up. 

Nice words, about the spirit being uninstutionalizable. So true. I agree that belief in God, experience of God, is one thing, but as you wrote, believing in the way you believe is another. Nice way to say it. 

The UB is a great source of spiritual inspiration, which is, after all, its primary purpose. But a book, like any physical object, can become a fetish, and the deeper meanings and significance are distorted or only partially integrated into daily life. There are those who think we are alone in this universe, that the hundreds of billions of galaxies, each populating billions or trillions of suns, are simply there because of the the laws of physics and gravity, as though sentience, consciousness and interpersonal relationship were not an inherent truth in the cosmos on planes, as you wrote, our minds simply cannot operate on, we are not sensitive to those frequencies. That's the purpose of meditation, to harmonize the awareness with these frequencies.


----------



## Quasar (Jun 15, 2017)

I guess I haven't grown up, because I continue to believe that "Turn on, tune in and drop out" is the single wisest sociopolitical utterance of the 20th century, even though on the unreflected surface it can sound like insipid, vacuous hyperbole.

"Spiritual inspiration" is exactly what a book like that can offer. Because religion purports to speak of the "super-natural" (beyond observable material nature), it needs metaphor, allegory and myth. My own belief (not very popular) is that myth can confer a deeper level or kind of "truth" than material fact. 

Take for example, the absurdly ignorant controversy over Darwin vs, Creationism. The authors of Genesis were not biological scientists, nor did they claim to be. If you want to study the history of living organisms and learn the material processes by which we came to have opposable thumbs, by all means study evolutionary science. The Bible is a waste of your time. But it's also true that the science cannot tell us who we are, why we are here and what it all means. The book of Genesis does offer an explanation for how we came to be in the condition and circumstances in which we find ourselves, and the stories of apples and serpents - mythological - can inform us in ways that empirically derived information simply cannot.

Or go way, way back in antiquity to India. The ancient psychonauts who wrote the Rig Vedas almost certainly attained places of transcendental awareness that in our world today is not even remotely imagined...

One book I really like and recommend for spiritual guidance is Black Elk Speaks. That and The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali.


----------



## NYC Composer (Jun 16, 2017)

I'm very fond of "Underworld" by Don Delillo. Though it's in the form of a novel, I believe it's actually a sacred tome and a guidebook to living a good life through the belief in and practice of compassion.

It's rather long, however, and the opinion expressed above is only mine. Will you gentlemen be reading it (as I have) and seeing if it will inform your life as it has mine, through allegories about baseball, dry-cleaning, waste disposal, highway killers etc. etc., in the same way you have given me the opportunity to access the sacred wisdom you've read and taken to heart?

Where does "offering opportunity" start and "proselytizing" end?


----------



## markleake (Jun 17, 2017)

jsg said:


> Perhaps you haven't judged but when I explained twice that a personal relationship with God is one of the central tenants of the Urantia Book, you still denied it and wrote:
> 
> _I guess I'll take that to mean it does dispense with a personal God relationship, and indeed with the Christian salvation doctrine. For something that seems to focuses so much on Jesus, it seems to me that it is very confused about him and totally misses the point.
> _
> The confusion seems to be yours, taking a key concept and completely turning it around. Look, I have no investment in what others believe or do not believe. If what you believe helps you, and does no harm to others, I am all for it. The Urantia Book, in my opinion, is one of the greatest philosophical/spiritual works to appear on earth and it can help every human being to become more real, more loving, more courageous. It can help Jews to be better Jews, Christians to become better Christians, Muslims to become better Muslims, etc. It's view of the worth of the human being transcends race, gender, class and nationality. It embraces the brotherhood and sisterhood of humanity. It opposes all form of prejudice, hatred and exploitation. The 20th and 21st centuries are turning out the be the most violent in the history of the human race. WWI killed about 18 million people, WW2 killed about 60 million, most of them in their 20s. The Vietnam war alone killed over a million. Did Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, or atheism stop the bloodshed? Obviously not. WW3 will probably wipe out a hundred million of us, not to mention what it will do to the atmosphere, agriculture and human societies. And yet the 20th and 21st centuries have seen the most astonishing scientific and technological advances since the dawn of humanity. We are becoming the greatest threat to ourselves. New worldviews, new attitudes, new vision and a new sense of the interconnectedness of life is sorely needed. Not just new, but better. The UB, I believe, offers that to us.


I made my assessment based on your detailed explanations, and it is why I am having trouble understanding your initial assertions. So for example, let me just throw these ideas out there for you to chew on:

Personal relationship != Love
Salvation in a Christian sense != Immortal soul potential with freedom to choose our fate after we have died


----------

