# Is it legal to "reverse engineer" (aka steal!?) Impulse Responses?



## cauebravim (Jan 2, 2021)

Is it legal to ask someone, who owns Altiverb for example, to play a white noise click through the effect chain containing some of Altiverb`s IR loaded and use a mix down of this result as a IR in any other plugin that reads that information as an IR (Reverence in my case)? From a legal point of view, can I do this? of course there's a moral concern in doing this too; what you think? (not doing apology here)


----------



## InverseS (Jan 2, 2021)

Is it legal to ask someone to take a photo of a photo so you can use it commercially? To record music on tape, and then import it to Cubase and use it as your own? 
If the intention is to make a copy of their work (the IR) then it's illegal. Would you be caught? Probably not.
If you make an IR that's beyond recognition (a combination of FX and different IRs at the same time), then it's sound design/something new and not an attempt to copy. Legal? Maybe.


----------



## Sarah Mancuso (Jan 2, 2021)

If you're just sampling it for your own personal usage in music, that's probably fine.

If you're planning to distribute the impulse response, that's less fine.


----------



## ReleaseCandidate (Jan 2, 2021)

What do think IRs of hardware units are? Or simulation of the hardware? Or samples? Why do think most of them don't have the 'original' name?

But using an IR to model a convolution reverb is a bit, well, ... Specially, if you're getting the response of a hardware IR


----------



## Bman70 (Jan 2, 2021)

I mean it's a recording aka sample, of another recording aka sample. So the legalities would be pretty much the same as if you sampled any other library.


----------



## davidanthony (Jan 2, 2021)

cauebravim said:


> Is it legal to ask someone, who owns Altiverb for example, to play a white noise click through the effect chain containing some of Altiverb`s IR loaded and use a mix down of this result as a IR in any other plugin that reads that information as an IR (Reverence in my case)? From a legal point of view, can I do this? of course there's a moral concern in doing this too; what you think? (not doing apology here)


Potential copyright issues aside, the Altiverb software license probably forbids this.


----------



## Dex (Jan 2, 2021)

davidanthony said:


> Potential copyright issues aside, the Altiverb software license probably forbids this.


Yeah this. When in doubt, read the EULA.


----------



## Polkasound (Jan 2, 2021)

Isn't an impulse response a digital audio recording? If so, then it makes sense to me that generating a copy of an Altiverb-owned IR would require you to obtain a license or permission from Altiverb.

Even though making an IR from an IR would generate all new data, that new data would be a copy of an existing sound recording. It would be the equivalent connecting two CD burners via analog cables and asking your friend to make copies of his music CDs for you.

Regardless, this is a question that really ought to be asked in a legal forum moreso than a music forum.


----------



## Justin L. Franks (Jan 3, 2021)

Altiverb EULA: https://www.audioease.com/altiverb/files/Altiverb7-eula.pdf

Look at page 3 (emphasis added):



> 1. License. Audio Ease gives the USER the right to use the enclosed IMPULSE RESPONSES under the terms of this agreement. *This agreement gives the USER the right to install and use the IMPULSE RESPONSES only in conjunction with Audio Ease ‘Altiverb™ sampled acoustics processor’.*





> 2. Restrictions. The USER may not install or provide use of the IMPULSE RESPONSES in a network.*The USER may not, without written permission from Audio Ease, reverse engineer, disassemble, re-sample or re-record, decompile, modify, alter or reduce the IMPULSE RESPONSES in whole or in part to a human perceivable form*. The USER may not electronically transmit the IMPULSE RESPONSES in whole or in part from one computer to another or over a network.The USER may not rent, lease, loan or distribute the IMPULSE RESPONSES in whole or in part.


----------



## cauebravim (Jan 3, 2021)

Very good responses! Justin nailed it. Thank you!


----------



## Polkasound (Jan 3, 2021)

cauebravim said:


> Very good responses! Justin nailed it. Thank you!


I apparently misinterpreted your question. It sounded as if you were only concerned about whether you'd be breaking the law:



cauebravim said:


> From a legal point of view, can I do this?


The information Justin gave is in Altiverb's EULA, but a EULA is not a law; it's a contract. If you made a copy of an Altiverb IR and sent it to someone, it would certainly violate Altiverb's EULA, and Altiverb could use the EULA against you if they sued you for copyright infringement, but that in itself wouldn't necessarily make the act of copying the IR "illegal". That's why I had suggested you ask the question in a law forum.

Anytime you're wondering about what is acceptable use for a virtual instrument library or plugin, almost every developer will have a EULA (End User License Agreement) posted on their website to which you can refer.


----------



## ProfoundSilence (Jan 3, 2021)

I have done this for personal use, and I just don't care because I don't distribute it

I also haven't made guides because people might use it in ways I don't appreciate.

I had used a specific piece of software to create a virtual "mic" with eq matching ect so I could drop it into Kontakt for cleanliness


----------



## ReleaseCandidate (Jan 4, 2021)

Polkasound said:


> Anytime you're wondering about what is acceptable use for a virtual instrument library or plugin, almost every developer will have a EULA (End User License Agreement) posted on their website to which you can refer.


Which doesn't mean that they are valid in many european countries. You can't change the law with an EULA. 

And if they don't put it on their website, you can do what you want in many european countries, because anything you can't see before you buy something is invalid.


----------



## Bman70 (Jan 4, 2021)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> Which doesn't mean that they are valid in many european countries. You can't change the law with an EULA.
> 
> And if they don't put it on their website, you can do what you want in many european countries, because anything you can't see before you buy something is invalid.



I would think there are copyright protections in most countries. A recording or creative work is automatically the property of the entity who manufactured it. An EULA doesn't grant those protections, it's just a notification which isn't necessary to have them be protected. The only thing that can give away copyright ownership is a legal agreement, or licensing the work as public domain / copyright free. In which European countries can you "do what you want" without concern for copyrights?


----------



## merty (Jan 4, 2021)

The distressor comp. is a good example to this. It emulates other brands gear, then many plug-in developers emulated it


----------



## Crowe (Jan 4, 2021)

The first thing I do when I get a new set of IRs with a new piece of software is extract them where possible for use with other reverbs. I have no interest in redistributing them so I don't see an issue there.


----------



## ReleaseCandidate (Jan 4, 2021)

Bman70 said:


> I would think there are copyright protections in most countries. A recording or creative work is automatically the property of the entity who manufactured it.


Yes and no. What exactly constitutes a 'sufficiently high' form of creative work is the problém. Samples of some tones aren't 'creative enough' to get a copyright, when you're sampling music, that's where the probléms for the sampler begin. A copyright you can only get for your library as a whole. And then there is some form of 'private copy' allowed in some european countries. And so on. Details, details. 
And then you cannot disallow or allow stuff that's against the law in your EULA. 



Bman70 said:


> The only thing that can give away copyright ownership is a legal agreement, or licensing the work as public domain / copyright free.


That's also something you can't do in many european countries, there is absolutely _no_ way to 'give away' your copyright ownership. You can give away the license to do stuff, but you _always_ rest the copyright owner. That's also a cause why many licenses/EULAs are not valid. There is no such thing as 'copyright free'.


----------



## Dietz (Jan 4, 2021)

My completely un-official, personal answer to the OP (from somebody who develops IR-based products himself): Do whatever you want to, as long as it is for your personal (even professional) use. Just don't share it, don't try to sell it.


----------



## cauebravim (Jan 4, 2021)

very nice points here! I just came to this because one of my clients asked to re-open a project I made when I was working in a company's machine that owns Altiverb. Now, at home, I own every tool we used, except for Altiverb, so this method came in my mind to avoid recreating from scratch and have this "backward" compatibility. Since I'm recording my own IR, I don't feel like selling this anyway.


----------



## Dietz (Jan 4, 2021)

This might in fact be some kind of grey area as your _client_ (or the company) shares re-recorded IRs, in that scenario ... but I'd say - go for it.


----------



## Polkasound (Jan 4, 2021)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> Which doesn't mean that they are valid in many european countries. You can't change the law with an EULA.


That's why I said, "...a EULA is not a law; it's a contract." But a EULA's legal validity doesn't matter if your intention is only to learn how the developer does not want you to use their product so that you can honor their wishes.



Dietz said:


> My completely un-official, personal answer to the OP (from somebody who develops IR-based products himself): Do whatever you want to, as long as it is for your personal (even professional) use. Just don't share it, don't try to sell it.


I like your take on this whole thing, because the key principle of a EULA is to establish that you can't redistribute the product without authorization. How one reverse-engineers their own legitimately-purchased product for personal use behind closed doors is small potatoes compared to unauthorized distribution.



cauebravim said:


> Since I'm recording my own IR


Since the company owns Altiverb and not you, creating an IR from their copy for personal use at home would be deemed unauthorized distribution. But not all hope is lost. Instead of shelling out a ton of money for another Altiverb license, and before you spend time trying to get another IR to work, reach out to Altiverb and explain your situation to them. They may say no, but you never know. Some companies reward honesty with granted privileges.

If Altiverb says no, then scour the internet for IRs. There are websites out there that have all kinds of free IRs to download, from churches and parking garages to amplifiers and telephones.


----------



## Bman70 (Jan 4, 2021)

cauebravim said:


> very nice points here! I just came to this because one of my clients asked to re-open a project I made when I was working in a company's machine that owns Altiverb. Now, at home, I own every tool we used, except for Altiverb, so this method came in my mind to avoid recreating from scratch and have this "backward" compatibility. Since I'm recording my own IR, I don't feel like selling this anyway.


Sounds like by working at the company, you had access to a licensed version of Altiverb, but at home, you don't? So it's the same as if the company's computer had CSS... if you don't have it you'd have to say to the client "Sorry I don't have the VIs we used on that." Or you could try to resample CSS . 

I guess I'm not sure how IRs are different in this regard from any other sample VI, just because the samples are of professionally recorded spaces instead of instruments. There might be a difference there, I'm just not sure what it is.


----------



## Virtuoso (Jan 4, 2021)

cauebravim said:


> I just came to this because one of my clients asked to re-open a project I made when I was working in a company's machine that owns Altiverb.


You could buy Altiverb and pass the cost on to the client, or request a demo from Audioease and then freeze the tracks.


----------

