# Sexism in the Industry? (Split Off Thread)



## Jimmy Hellfire (Dec 18, 2015)

[This thread was split off from the Deniz Hughes discussion by moderator]



marclawsonmusic said:


> Someone asserted that Mike Greene's Christmas Realitone ad was 'sexist'



Why, what does it say?

"Send your wife to the kitchen and treat yourself to these fine sample libraries for christmas!"
"Realivox Ladies! Why settle for one when you can make them all sing?"

EDIT: OK, saw the post above. Oh well ...


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## Mystic (Dec 18, 2015)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> "Realivox Ladies! Why settle for one when you can make them all sing?"


I had coffee in my mouth, good sir... Had...
Need to find a towel. brb


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## marclawsonmusic (Dec 18, 2015)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Why, what does it say?
> 
> "Send your wife to the kitchen and treat yourself to these fine sample libraries for christmas!"
> "Realivox Ladies! Why settle for one when you can make them all sing?"



I didn't read the copy, I just saw the picture. Now that I read the copy, I agree it is a bit off-color.


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## Mystic (Dec 18, 2015)

I dunno it's a bit off colour but at the same time, it is very tongue-in-cheek and not meant to be taken seriously. I equate it to the timeless gag about buying the wife a bowling ball for Christmas. I do think we spend too much time getting offended over small things these days while things we should be getting offended over often go unobserved. Strange world we live in.


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## Jdiggity1 (Dec 18, 2015)

marclawsonmusic said:


> I didn't read the copy, I just saw the picture. Now that I read the copy, I agree it is a bit off-color.



The email doesn't say those things, just to be clear. That was Jimmy having a guess at what could have been said.


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## marclawsonmusic (Dec 18, 2015)

Jdiggity1 said:


> The email doesn't say those things, just to be clear. That was Jimmy having a guess at what could have been said.



Hi Jimmy, that was kind of a jerk thing to do.

Just so everyone is clear, this is the Realitone ad on Facebook. I have no idea why people got mad about this. This whole 'sexism' thing is blown out of proportion.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Dec 18, 2015)

marclawsonmusic said:


> Hi Jimmy, that was kind of a jerk thing to do.



I was obviously joking and it wouldn't have crossed my mind that anyone could actually read it as anything else, or take it even remotely seriously. But I also can't imagine that anyone would call the ad in question out for being "sexist".


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## Ian Dorsch (Dec 18, 2015)

While I don't find it offensive, I can see how people would have a legitimate beef with the ad, and it's absolutely worth having that discussion, assuming that people are willing to talk *to* each other instead of merely *at* each other. 

But this is the Internet, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

What bothers me is this rush to point out something that offends you, and then immediately gather an angry mob and loudly announce your "correct" opinion so it can be seen by successful people that you clearly want to impress. There's trying to advance awareness of important issues, and then there's nakedly self-aggrandizing, self-promoting behavior at the expense of others.


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## sleepy hollow (Dec 18, 2015)

Ian Dorsch said:


> There's trying to advance awareness of important issues, and then there's nakedly self-aggrandizing, self-promoting behavior at the expense of others.


Well said.


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## bcarwell (Dec 18, 2015)

Tyranny of the easily offended...


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## d.healey (Dec 18, 2015)

The ad's certainly getting a lot of attention


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## Zhao Shen (Dec 18, 2015)

We live in an overly PC society where you can't do anything without offending someone. It was a light-hearted quip with no malicious intent.


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## pkm (Dec 18, 2015)

In this thread, I see a bunch of men deciding what should or should not offend women...


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## Mystic (Dec 18, 2015)

pkm said:


> In this thread, I see a bunch of men deciding what should or should not offend women...


And if the tables were turned, it would be "men should have no say because they don't understand what we women go through." There is no winning in an argument where sexism is a topic if you're a man so let's not even go there.


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## Ian Dorsch (Dec 18, 2015)

pkm said:


> In this thread, I see a bunch of men deciding what should or should not offend women...



Like I said, I think it's a discussion worth having. What Deniz is doing is not that.

Sexism in our industry is a real thing, but you're not going to change or open anyone's mind by scolding them, or whipping up an outraged mob on social media to make yourself look virtuous.


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## Daryl (Dec 18, 2015)

Ian Dorsch said:


> Sexism in our industry is a real thing, but you're not going to change or open anyone's mind by scolding them, or whipping up an outraged mob on social media to make yourself look virtuous.


There is some sexism, but there are also comparatively few women composers. It's very difficult to ascertain when the apparent lack of achievement is due to sexism or other factors. In fact with library music the gender of the composer is mostly anonymous to the client, as they don't really care who wrote the music. Only that it works for them. However, there are still very few women composers writing successfully in the library field. That tells me that in this genre the problem, if indeed there is one, mostly lies elsewhere.

I can tell you exactly where the problem is, but I'm not sure that there is a solution.

D


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## tack (Dec 18, 2015)

SCOREcast Episode 52 had some interesting things to say about Deniz Hughes. Jump to 56:20.


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## Red (Dec 18, 2015)

Uh.... correct me if i'm wrong but,
isn't the male brain generally and statistically(keyword) geared towards qualities that are helpful when writing music?

Just from evolutionary stand point alone?

[Edited by moderator]


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Dec 18, 2015)

Red said:


> [Edited by moderator]



Oh wow, dude. If that lady you guys are discussing was active on this forum, this would be the moment where I'd have to go get some popcorn.


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## Red (Dec 18, 2015)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Oh wow, dude. If that lady you guys are discussing was active on this forum, this would be the moment where I'd have to go get some popcorn.



Lol. And I thought I was choosing my words very carefully. Just look at all the sidetrack olive branch explanations I'm doing. [Edited by moderator]


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## pkm (Dec 18, 2015)

Mystic said:


> And if the tables were turned, it would be "men should have no say because they don't understand what we women go through." There is no winning in an argument where sexism is a topic if you're a man so let's not even go there.



The vast majority of women commenting in that Facebook group said that there was something offensive about the ad. That's enough for me. I don't understand what women go through (although I try to understand!), so why _should_ I have a say in what offends them?


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## Baron Greuner (Dec 18, 2015)

I don't do Twitter or Facebook and never will and yes I wear it like a badge of honour [Edited by moderator]


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## Hannes_F (Dec 18, 2015)

Ladies and Gentlemen,
when it comes to gender issues then please use your brain and watch your vocabulatory. Thank you.


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## Mystic (Dec 18, 2015)

pkm said:


> The vast majority of women commenting in that Facebook group said that there was something offensive about the ad. That's enough for me. I don't understand what women go through (although I try to understand!), so why _should_ I have a say in what offends them?


See, to me it looked like a few of them wanted to jump on a bandwagon for attention. There were also females there saying to get over it and that it wasn't offensive, so there is that.


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## prodigalson (Dec 18, 2015)

Red said:


> Uh.... correct me if i'm wrong but,
> isn't the male brain generally and statistically(keyword) geared towards qualities that are helpful when writing music?



That completely depends on what you consider to be the qualities that are helpful when writing music. And for some reason I suspect that you have the definitive answer to that? Who's to say what these qualities are. Perhaps the general superior ability of women at intuiting emotion and their often superior language skills are qualities that are helpful when writing music? Yes, there's evidence to show that men and women are born with somewhat different brain structures and that they develop differently over time leading to a VERY general and statistical variety in observable skill sets. But there is also evidence that brains are malleable and there's no way to judge the extent to which culture, environment and social dictates affect the development of boys and girls brains. And even assuming there are observable differences in GENERAL skill sets possessed by boys and girls, it can be seen that there is often wide overlap in these skills. The reality is that every brain exists on a spectrum. I'm a male and I'm told I'm supposed to have better spatial skills and I'm supposed to be better at math and science etc etc. However, I'm fucking terrible at Math yet my mother was a great Math teacher. I have less than average spatial skills and am terrible at sports. My older sister however, while showing no natural talent in music was a star athlete all through her school career and even went as far as being on our national field hockey team. 

There are many famous male composers...but then there's also Clara Schumann, Jennifer Higdon, Ellen Taafe Zwilich, Meredith Monk, Rachel Portman, Anne Dudley, Amy Beach, Germaine Tailleferre, Lili Boulanger, Nadia Boulanger, Jocelyn Pook, Bjork, Hiromi, Maria Schneider, Carla Bley, Toshiko Akiyoshi, Terri Lynne Carrington, Geri Allen, Esperanza Spaulding etc etc. 

We don't live in the 1950's anymore guys. The sooner we start telling young girls that they can be whoever and whatever they want and stop telling them that their brains are different because yeah, "Science", the sooner we'll see more proportional gender representation, not just in music but in many other male-dominated industries.


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## prodigalson (Dec 18, 2015)




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## Jimmy Hellfire (Dec 18, 2015)

I have no idea which part of my brain I'm pulling music out of, so I wouldn't even want to speak of parts of the brain that are presumably carrying the ability to make music or whatever. 

I know that particular place in my mind is definitely very "me", but I couldn't claim that there's anyting in there that feels related to gender at all. Musically, I can relate to Rachel Portman more than, say, John Williams. Overall music just doesn't feel like a "gender" thing to me at all. They say it's an universal language after all, don't they.


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## kdm (Dec 18, 2015)

There are far too many people and groups tossing around accusations like "sexist" as a crutch or a weapon, either to silence/gain power over others, or to deflect attention away from their own "-ist" prejudices. Ironically, that just expands the problem by making others wary of that person *because* of their gender/race. In addition, it hijacks attention away from any real occurrences of the problem. It also makes them toxic to be around. It is risky to associate with, much less hire someone who so flippantly accuses others of some "-ism". At the least, it can be toxic to the work environment; and at the worst it can be a liability issue (accusation is now 9/10 of the law because of these flippant "isms" unfortunately, at least in the eyes of the media and court of public opinion). It also indicates a lack of confidence and strength of character that is necessary to succeed in this highly stressful, competitive career (or any other). 2 strikes before ever getting to the qualifications - too bad really, but people need to learn that to get respect, you have to give it. 

Kudos to the ladies who responded in that conversation saying they didn't find it offensive. While others are complaining about how unfair and sexist the world is, those are the women that are most likely to become respected and successful in whatever career path they have chosen. They will do so on talent instead of gender-guilt.

My wife laughed when I told her about the "hey guys" moratorium. She was offended that a term she and her friends have used generically with each other for many years would be considered sexist.


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## pkm (Dec 18, 2015)

Mystic said:


> See, to me it looked like a few of them wanted to jump on a bandwagon for attention. There were also females there saying to get over it and that it wasn't offensive, so there is that.



What made you think they were jumping on a bandwagon for attention? Why do you assume these women talking about sexism have ulterior motives? I'm sorry, but now you're trivializing their word and opinions on a serious issue, which is not fair at all. This kind of thinking is how already-marginalized groups stay marginalized.

I know there were females saying it wasn't offensive, which is why I said "the vast majority" and not "all".


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## marclawsonmusic (Dec 18, 2015)

pkm said:


> The vast majority of women commenting in that Facebook group said that there was something offensive about the ad. That's enough for me.



I guess you never learned about logical fallacies... because that is called the band wagon fallacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum


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## pkm (Dec 18, 2015)

marclawsonmusic said:


> I guess you never learned about logical fallacies... because that is called the band wagon fallacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum



Marc, being offended IS a belief. Yes, if many women feel offended, then that means that they are offended. In this case, the belief is _exactly_ what makes it true.


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## marclawsonmusic (Dec 18, 2015)

pkm said:


> Marc, being offended IS a belief. Yes, if many women feel offended, then that means that they are offended. In this case, the belief is _exactly_ what makes it true.



People may be offended, but it doesn't mean their argument is rational. Those are two different things. People get offended by a lot of silly stuff these days.


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## Mystic (Dec 18, 2015)

pkm said:


> What made you think they were jumping on a bandwagon for attention? Why do you assume these women talking about sexism have ulterior motives? I'm sorry, but now you're trivializing their word and opinions on a serious issue, which is not fair at all. This kind of thinking is how already-marginalized groups stay marginalized.
> 
> I know there were females saying it wasn't offensive, which is why I said "the vast majority" and not "all".


What makes you think they weren't? It's common internet knowledge that people love to do this exact thing. Maybe they aren't, but I'd not bet against it. Hell, they even fabricated the included text to further push the agenda she was trying to get across. This isn't the first time she's gone and done the whole sexism thing; I've seen it on her page at least 3 times a month. Maybe she feels her own failure has to do with her gender but I doubt that is the case highly judging by some of the things that get posted there. All it takes is a few people to back you up to make it look a lot louder than it actually is.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to water down the issue of actual gender discrimination, but I am certainly going to downplay this whole mentality of "don't say anything that could remotely offend anyone in the slightest" politically correct rubbish we've adopted in society. Especially when you need to fabricate a story to further make a bigger issue out of nothing. Otherwise, I take offence to your accusations that I'm making the issue trivial and you should feel bad about it. 

Happy? Good. Me too. Let's move on and be friends.


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## pkm (Dec 18, 2015)

marclawsonmusic said:


> People may be offended, but it doesn't mean their argument is rational. Those are two different things. People get offended by a lot of silly stuff these days.



Here's my thing...who are you to decide it's irrational? If I get a lot of complaints that guests in my house are cold and it's 75° in there, I'll still raise the heat. They're still cold, regardless of what temperature it is, and regardless of what temperature I consider to be cold. 



Mystic said:


> What makes you think they weren't? It's common internet knowledge that people love to do this exact thing. Maybe they aren't, but I'd not bet against it. Hell, they even fabricated the included text to further push the agenda she was trying to get across. This isn't the first time she's gone and done the whole sexism thing; I've seen it on her page at least 3 times a month. Maybe she feels her own failure has to do with her gender but I doubt that is the case highly judging by some of the things that get posted there. All it takes is a few people to back you up to make it look a lot louder than it actually is.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to water down the issue of actual gender discrimination, but I am certainly going to downplay this whole mentality of "don't say anything that could remotely offend anyone in the slightest" politically correct rubbish we've adopted in society. Especially when you need to fabricate a story to further make a bigger issue out of nothing. Otherwise, I take offence to your accusations that I'm making the issue trivial and you should feel bad about it.
> 
> Happy? Good. Me too. Let's move on and be friends.



To be fair, It wasn't Deniz that posted the link about the Realitone ad. Listen, I've had it out with Deniz on her Facebook page a few times about things she said that were either giving terrible advice, or objectively wrong or misleading. I also agree that this new PC culture has gone too far in many ways but I stand by the assertion that because all but one woman (last I checked) on that Facebook page who commented thought it was offensive, there's a problem. I also think that an overly-PC world is still better for everyone than anything we've had in the past. 

By the way, if I were Realitone and felt like I was offending an entire gender of the members of a Facebook group full of my target demographic, I would take a step back and reevaluate my advertisement.

I of course don't think you're trivializing the entire issue of gender discrimination at all, but I do think you're trivializing these specific women who commented about that ad by assuming that they are lying. 

The only way for women to stop being marginalized is for people to start taking their opinions and feelings more seriously on these kinds of issues.

I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say "fabricating a story". Can you elaborate?

I'm good, you're good. Just having a conversation and I think it has been respectful and civil so far, don't you agree?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 18, 2015)

'80s joke I posted in Mike's thread about this on FB:

Q: How many feminists does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

A: I don't think that's very funny.

***

Having said that, "PC culture" is bullshit. It always means someone is about to say something offensive, e.g. Donald Trump.


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## Mystic (Dec 18, 2015)

pkm said:


> I'm good, you're good. Just having a conversation and I think it has been respectful and civil so far, don't you agree?


The screenshot of what marc posted of the page is not what was sent in the advertisement. They made it out to be much more than it actually was by adding that.


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## pkm (Dec 18, 2015)

Mystic said:


> The screenshot of what marc posted of the page is not what was sent in the advertisement. They made it out to be much more than it actually was by adding that.



I'm sorry, I still don't fully understand. There were two things posted in here. Marc posted a screenshot of the Realitone facebook post, and someone else posted a link to the post from Deniz's FB group about the email (which had different copy than the facebook post). Who fabricated what?


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## prodigalson (Dec 18, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Having said that, "PC culture" is bullshit. It always means someone is about to say something offensive, e.g. Donald Trump.



Too often those that repeatedly complain about "political correctness" are just annoyed that its not acceptable to be racist, homophobic, sexist or xenophobic anymore. i.e. those that want to "make america great again". (NOT referring to anyone specific here for sure. Just an observation).


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## kdm (Dec 18, 2015)

prodigalson said:


> Too often those that repeatedly complain about "political correctness" are just annoyed that its not acceptable to be racist, homophobic, sexist or xenophobic anymore. i.e. those that want to "make america great again". (NOT referring to anyone specific here for sure. Just an observation).



With all due respect, you might not realize it, but that is unfortunately also a prejudiced generalization. As a generalization, it is also incorrect, even if it might apply to a few (as most observations might).

Political correctness has deteriorated our education system and social culture by injecting a fear of "hurt feelings" into what should be open, honest, respectful discussion. That honest discussion can often build character rather than tear it down. Instead of creating a society of stronger-character individuals, this has become an untended wound that festers at everyone's expense, not just a special interest group, gender or race. It has also fostered a false sense of entitlement that has replaced self-worth and personal responsibility. It also leads some to abuse these labels and accusations to avoid facing challenging ideas.

Where I grew up (because of who we are rather than where), it was never acceptable to judge anyone, regardless of race, gender, etc, and we never had to worry about being "PC" because it wasn't an ideology abused for political and social power. Non-judgmental respect was simply the right thing to do. Now it's become an abused weapon of those who are (though few admit it) sadly prejudiced against people they disagree with and want to silence. People who want to "make America great again" simply want EVERYONE to have the same right of free speech and beliefs, not just free speech for those who like to spin disagreement as somehow racist, sexist or homophobic. It isn't a catch phrase even if it is used as one.

Disagreement is a core characteristic of being diverse individuals with free will. Free will, and free speech gives you the right to make the comment you did, and me the right to disagree with you. It doesn't make it right for any of us to hate, belittle, or stereotype those we might disagree with (hopefully we don't have to worry about that here - I think we are all professional and respectful enough to hash things like this out rationally).

A general observation and not to anyone here: It is rather disheartening to see people exercise their free speech by berating, categorizing or insulting people, and at the same time accusing them of being some "-ist"-of-the-day simply to scare others away from any defense or response. That is what spurs the frustration with political correctness, not a desire to excuse racism, sexism, etc. But that abuse of free speech to accuse others is unfortunately running rampant in our culture, even if not on this forum.

I've always had friends and family that fit into every single group that could actually have a reason to raise an alarm over some "-ism", and I might as well. But even so, none have ever had to or wanted to - that comes from their strong sense of self-respect rather than demanding unearned circumstantial respect.

Disagreement is just disagreement, not an indictment or judgement of the opposing view, or it should be so. But I hope we all realize that prejudice *is* a two-way street - accusation is a form of prejudice too. Accusation isn't the right of some to laud over others simply because they don't like a word, phrase or belief.

Most of the real prejudice problems, and all of the supposed ones would vanish if we fostered a culture of honest discourse, without externally imposed fear of hyper-inflated insult. It is a bit hypocritical for any of us imperfect people to judge the imperfections of others. Most prejudices develop through limited, superficial perceptions that are continually reinforced by special interest-driven biased attitudes, politicians and media that have a "sensation sells" or divide and conquer agenda. If we want to understand, respect and support one another regardless of our differences, we need to stop adopting anyone else's hyped rhetoric, stop categorizing people, and start communicating by giving the respect and compassion we want to receive. We might find the supposed differences aren't really all that different or significant after all. Pardon the long post. I try to stay out of socio-political debates, but it is time we started talking and stopped assuming. Thanks for reading, and hopefully not judging me too harshly.


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## pkm (Dec 19, 2015)

I think it's important to note that "Free speech" doesn't mean that you (the general "you") can say whatever you want without someone calling you a racist, a sexist, a bigot or an a-hole.

Free speech pertains to government censorship or punishment, neither of which has any relevance to any discussion in this thread so far.

By the way, this thread should probably be split off into an Off-Topic forum by now, right?


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## Hannes_F (Dec 19, 2015)

Hello everybody,
I have split off this discussion from the Deniz Hughes thread. Sorry if something might be slightly out of context due to this (especially the thread start). Thanks.


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## Baron Greuner (Dec 19, 2015)

Someone tell me what she said about Mike Greene.


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## mirrodin (Dec 19, 2015)

I don't find it offensive, but i'm not a woman. I think perhaps it's one of those terrible ads that was intended to be "so overt, it's covert" type of comedy subliminal advert.

The problem with marketing these days is far too many companies tend to take the minimalist approach and spend more time eyeing the bottom dollar than the "message" being conveyed. As someone who's constantly doing work for the advertising industry, clients just don't care enough about the creative direction and possible perception of the ads they are paying to have made by the general public/audience.

And this is how ads get "banned" and end up on the top funniest/stupidest/ridiculous lists and turned into memes; and while a rare few of those things go on to have some sort of surprisingly positive social impact, many just end up being negative social press.


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## Resoded (Dec 19, 2015)

I think it's OK to joke about men. I think it's OK to joke about women. Even if the joke is "at the expense" of said group. You don't have to like all jokes, but most of the times you may be better off/happier accepting that everybody do not bow to your every whim.

It all boils down to solid principles.

The alternative would be far worse; censorship/self censorship/politcization of basic human interaction.

The day when hurt feelings trumps solid principles is a sad day.


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## lpuser (Dec 19, 2015)

These days it seems that everyone is offended by everything and nobody seems to be able to take things with a wink. In my opinion this is a very sad and unfortunate trend, which will not help to make life easier. Why is it that nobody can laugh about himself/herself anymore but take everything overly serious?


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## C.R. Rivera (Dec 19, 2015)

I, a Puerto Rican, look forward to more Hispanics in both the NFL and NBA, but I am not holding my breath. I mean, we know that cinematically "white men can't jump" remains politically correct, but use any other racial group, or, the opposite gender, oh my god, the sensitivity would lead one to shaming as the appropriate response.


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## KEnK (Dec 19, 2015)

Some general thoughts on sexism in the music/entertainment industry.

My sister is a live sound engineer.
She's made a good career for herself, working at the higher local levels.
Meaning top local clubs featuring national acts, doing sound at festivals-
and is on a 1st name basis w/ quite a few internationally known artists.

My wonderful wife works in the film industry.
She's a top call camera assistant, also working in the big leagues.

Neither of them are overly sensitive "politically correct" extremist man-hating feminists,
but both will tell you their chosen field is still largely a "boy's club".

I always wish there were more women composers here and in general.
(I was saddened to see Valerie leave, being perhaps the most active woman composer ever at VI)

There have been a few statements supposing that women's brains are "wired differently",
regarding the dearth of women composers.
I've never read anything to support the idea of an anatomical gender based difference in the human brain,
so if there is a difference in thinking patterns, it's a learned thing based on individual experiences.

I think the part of my brain that I use as a composer, is the same part that a writer, physicist,
architect, or computer programmer uses. The combination of logic and intuition.

I think it's fair to say that only in the literary field is there an inherent sense that
there is no gender based difference in creative ability.
As a society, we seem to accept that women can write.
The other creative fields remain "boy's clubs" simply because that's what they are.

k


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## prodigalson (Dec 19, 2015)

kdm said:


> With all due respect, you might not realize it, but that is unfortunately also a prejudiced generalization. As a generalization, it is also incorrect, even if it might apply to a few (as most observations might).



It would be a generalization if I stated it as categorical fact. Of course it's not, it's a subjective opinion based on personal experience...thats why I specifically wrote "too often". It's not a catergorical qualitative judgement so there can be no determination of whether it is "correct or incorrect" by you or anyone else. 

I don't disagree with a lot of what you said, I do agree that there has been a counterproductive trend in the sanitization of discussion of colleges and in our public discourse. However, I don't think that demonizing all attempts at being REASONABLY sensitive to the backgrounds and experiences of others is the solution. 
*
In my opinion*, *VERY OFTEN *(though clearly not always) those who use the buzz word "political correctness" are simply annoyed that they have to start giving a f**ck about the feelings of others.


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## tack (Dec 19, 2015)

Hannes_F said:


> I have split off this discussion from the Deniz Hughes thread. Sorry if something might be slightly out of context due to this (especially the thread start).


Just for the record, my link to SCOREcast where they talked about Deniz wasn't about sexism at all. They were arguing she was giving dubious advice about the relationship between composer and director.


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## Farkle (Dec 19, 2015)

Slightly larger scope of what we're talking about, but I've been following this trend of "the right to feel safe in all social interactions", and have read several interesting, and (I feel) enlightening articles about this issue. Links below:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/22/opinion/sunday/judith-shulevitz-hiding-from-scary-ideas.html?_r=0


http://www.vox.com/2015/6/3/8706323/college-professor-afraid

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/the-coddling-of-the-american-mind/399356/

Mike


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## Dean (Dec 19, 2015)

A room full of men discussing sexism.


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## givemenoughrope (Dec 19, 2015)

^You included. It's better than never talking about it.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Dec 19, 2015)

Dean said:


> A room full of men discussing sexism.



A strange comment. Do you believe it's something men shouldn't concern themselves with?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 19, 2015)

kdm said:


> Where I grew up (because of who we are rather than where), it was never acceptable to judge anyone, regardless of race, gender, etc, and we never had to worry about being "PC" because it wasn't an ideology abused for political and social power. Non-judgmental respect was simply the right thing to do. Now it's become an abused weapon of those who are (though few admit it) sadly prejudiced against people they disagree with and want to silence. People who want to "make America great again" simply want EVERYONE to have the same right of free speech and beliefs, not just free speech for those who like to spin disagreement as somehow racist, sexist or homophobic. It isn't a catch phrase even if it is used as one.



I think this is now in the off-topic section, right? If not it should be, and I apologize in advance for getting political in the music section.

kdm. Wrong.

Those Republicans in the assclown car mean ONE THING ONLY when they talk about PC: "Hey stupid people with low tooth-to-tattoo ratios! You know we all really want to say shitty things about Mexicans and Moslems and blacks and all those other people, right!? Who needs those educated libtards! Vote for me and Jesus will let you be a fantastic xenophobe and bigot!"

"Make America great again" is just Donald Trump's branding of Demagoguery™.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 19, 2015)

Having said that, Mike's ad is not sexism.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 19, 2015)

"Jeez, everyone's so PC. Just because I hate everything about the Kenyan Moslem Socialist doesn't mean I'm racist!"


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## Red (Dec 19, 2015)

The real problem is not whether the generalizations and stereotypes are being thrown around or that people get offended by it. Those stop at opinions.
The real concern is what Deniz Hughes was saying about needing some sort of affirmative action for composers.

Affirmative action for education, currently, IS racist.
Affirmative action for music based on sex would be truly sexist.


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## kdm (Dec 19, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Those Republicans in the assclown car mean ONE THING ONLY when they talk about PC: "Hey stupid people with low tooth-to-tattoo ratios! You know we all really want to say shitty things about Mexicans and Moslems and blacks and all those other people, right!? Who needs those educated libtards! Vote for me and Jesus will let you be a fantastic xenophobe and bigot!"



With all due respect, you are absolutely wrong Nick. For one, I wasn't talking about a political group, but a general entitlement/victim mentality pervading society that damages those people's self-esteem. It is based on personal experience, not media or political rhetoric.

I was also attempting to be respectful and considerate, why can't you? This rather painfully proves my point. You are generalizing and insulting social, political and religious groups just to make your point more emphatic, or express your frustration. That's fine. That is your right. But what good does it do? Instead, why not try to get to know someone in one of those groups and have a respectful conversation with them in person instead of making broad prejudiced generalizations based on media hype. You might be surprised people you disagree with are nothing like your too conveniently stereotyped perception.

And it is spelled "muslim", not "moslem".


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## pkm (Dec 19, 2015)

kdm said:


> And it is spelled "muslim", not "moslem".



http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Moslem

By the way, I don't think there's any hypocrisy in calling bigots what they are. You can't be a considered a bigot for condemning bigotry.


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## KEnK (Dec 19, 2015)

kdm said:


> why not try to get to know someone in one of those groups and have a respectful conversation with them in person


Hi kdm-
My aforementioned Wonderful Wife & I actually have quite a collection of Tea Party relatives in Az. and La.
We do occasionally have family gatherings and mostly avoid politics and religion as topics of discussion.
They are all very sweet well meaning people, as nice, warm and friendly as could be.

But they actually do all drive "assclown cars". 

k


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## markwind (Dec 19, 2015)

I love this discussion! Far too few are being had on this subject.

The main problem here, is a lack of understanding on the position of women. The reasoning of: Men are able to take a joke at their expense, so women should too, even if the jokes are sexist in nature - has an inherent problem with it. Men have dominated many many public domains for very long, it is much easier to take sexist remarks when your gender isn't up against the odds. You really dont want to underestimate that fact, and the implications of it. 

To be honest, i used to think the same way; Women should just not be that easily offended. But then I started digging, trying to understand actually what women are up against.. And gradually you begin to realize it's not that black&white. Women need to stand up for themselves and each other, because you know what, otherwise pretty much no-one will. 

So Deniz being harsh, yeah. It's unfair, yeah it's in my opinion uncalled for in terms of what I think I would choose to do in her position. But her voice, makes this topic. Her voice, makes us talk about this matter. It's women making a strong stand, that makes the matter heard. That's how sorely this conversation needs to happen. If that means that women need to be unfair towards men in specific contexts in order to be heard, then, by all means, I cheer for them. Because you know what? Women have been unfairly treated, and are unfairly treated, far more then men ever have in the gender dynamic. And we complain at the smallest unfair treating, missing the point of the larger picture.


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## Dean (Dec 19, 2015)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> A strange comment. Do you believe it's something men shouldn't concern themselves with?



Thats the trouble,..men think everything concerns them. My point is this is a thread full of only men debating sexism {the vast majority of which is towards women)....not one womans opinion to be heard,as usual.

D


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## Mike Greene (Dec 19, 2015)

Wow, I didn't even know about this FB thing until now. It's kinda fun reading about yourself. And educational! Apparently I'm a _"giant, monster douche,"_ among other things. I actually am all those things, of course, but how could they tell from just one ad??? (Must . . . resist . . . joke . . . about . . . women's . . . intuition . . . )

I don't mind being called an a-hole/douche/lowlife and I don't even mind the "Don't buy his stuff!" posts. I really don't.

I don't even mind that they misinterpreted the ad, which I sincerely believe is the *opposite* of sexist. We’re poking fun at conventions. The assumption is always that women want jewelry or candy, but this guy’s girlfriend wants drums. Note that in the picture, she’s not rolling her eyes, she's happy! The implication being that she must be a producer or composer. Isn't that good thing??? I'm totally serious that if a woman had put out this same ad, including the _"Give her what she really wants!"_ headline, and she posted it on that same Facebook page, the response would be all positive.

But again, I can deal with people not agreeing with me on that. There are two things that do bother me about about that thread, though.

First is that Louise (who posted the topic) grossly misquoted my response to her email, clearly in order to make me appear more villainous. Seriously, if you can't make a point with accurate quotes, then is your point really valid? I plan to post a full response on their FB page, including what I _actually_ wrote to Louise, but I'm still waiting to be "approved" as a new member. (Something tells me I may have a very long wait.)

The other thing that bothers me is how quickly they judge and grab the pitchforks. Seriously, I'm a FRIEND when it comes to women's issues. (If Elizabeth Warren were running for president, I'd dump Bernie in a heartbeat.) Yet I'm instantly (and more important - thoughtlessly) cast as a di*k-swinging villain. _"Shame on him! Shame on him! Shame on him!"_ Pitchforks first, questions later.

Not just for me, but Marc Lawson is now banned, their only regret being that some of the ladies missed their chance to yell at him some more. I mean . . . they actually wrote that! I don't know Marc's politics, but I'm going to guess that he's a thoughtful guy and that he's all for women composers getting a fair shake. Yet . . . ban him!

There was a segment on NPR a couple months on why people are so reluctant nowadays to identify as "feminists." The answers to that question are all right there in that Facebook thread. It's Poli-Sci 101. You want to make allies of your enemies, not enemies of your allies.

No wonder we lose elections.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 19, 2015)

> With all due respect, you are absolutely wrong Nick. For one, I wasn't talking about a political group, but a general entitlement/victim mentality pervading society that damages those people's self-esteem. It is based on personal experience, not media or political rhetoric.



"Entitlement" is another dog whistle word. It's shorthand for "those people" and all the right-wing crap that goes with that me-me-me attitude.



> I was also attempting to be respectful and considerate, why can't you? This rather painfully proves my point. You are generalizing and insulting social, political and religious groups just to make your point more emphatic, or express your frustration. That's fine. That is your right. But what good does it do?



You're right. I'm generalizing about all Republicans; I should be fair and admit that there are a few plutocratic Republicans who aren't xenophobic or racist.



> Instead, why not try to get to know someone in one of those groups and have a respectful conversation with them in person instead of making broad prejudiced generalizations based on media hype. You might be surprised people you disagree with are nothing like your too conveniently stereotyped perception.



Ironically, the conveniently stereotyped perception is that it's fine to dismiss my accurate assessment because anyone who believes it must just stare at TV, believe what the talking heads say, be isolated, and not bother to think.

Here's something for you to think about: invoking sanctimony is not a respectful conversation, it's passive-aggressive.

And by the way you're wrong.


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## kdm (Dec 19, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Ironically, the conveniently stereotyped perception is that it's fine to dismiss my accurate assessment, because anyone who believes it must just stare at TV, believe what the talking heads say, be isolated, and not bother to think.
> 
> Here's something for you to think about: invoking sanctimony is not a respectful conversation, it's passive-aggressive.
> 
> And by the way you're wrong.



I didn't stereotype anyone for their political, social or religious belief, nor "invoke sanctimony". You did. I already told you that, but you didn't bother to ask for clarification if you didn't understand. You simply responded with the same aggressive tone. I haven't dismissed your assessment - it simply wasn't stated rationally and respectfully, so I can only evaluate it as aggression rather than rational discussion.

I suggested you talk to the people in person you have said you avoid - with respect rather than subjective preconceptions. I don't have anything in the least against you Nick, as I don't know you. But you seem more than a little angry that I don't agree with you. How is that open-minded and constructive?

Let's dial it back a bit and restore some common ground: I agree, the ad wasn't sexist. My first thought was that it was in support of female composers, unless of course, female composers don't want sample libraries for Christmas.


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## prodigalson (Dec 19, 2015)

I, personally, saw Mikes ad very much as satire along the same lines as that brilliant Harry Enfield sketch I posted earlier in this thread


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## givemenoughrope (Dec 19, 2015)

Dean said:


> Thats the trouble,..men think everything concerns them. My point is this is a thread full of only men debating sexism {the vast majority of which is towards women)....not one womans opinion to be heard,as usual.
> 
> D



Not too many women on this forum I think. I'm not sure why you are so eager to completely discredit any discussion as sexism obviously concerns men (honestly, wo us I'm not sure how much of it there could be). Seems a bit self-righteous in the way described by that Atlantic article. Of course, it would be more worthwhile with a female point of view.


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## germancomponist (Dec 19, 2015)

The advertising industry is mainly done by trained psychologists. The use of each subject in order to make profits. Above all, they play with the feelings of the people! That's long been known? Sexism is just one theme!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 19, 2015)

> ]I suggested you talk to the people in person you have said you avoid - with respect rather than subjective preconceptions.



Ah, but you say they're subjective preconceptions, and most people would take that as an insult to their intelligence!

I'm not angry, just emphatic, and I find your attempt to be "respectful" annoying. It's not respect, just a lot of pretending that obvious phrases don't mean what everyone knows they do mean.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 19, 2015)

This was under "Working in the Industry" for a while but as some have stated it fits better to Universe Repair.


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## chimuelo (Dec 19, 2015)

How are the sales?
That's what's important.
What's entertaining though is the offended ones hurling insults from the safety of an Avatar.....

I demand my safe space........yeah.....facebook is the place for that.

For the offended women, get revenge watching Hillary beat up those girly men in that staged media event later tonight.
OMalley might rap again and Bernie will sing.
But next year Hillary gets crushed by the voice of the King.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 19, 2015)

Definitely universe repair.

Anyway. To me the music industry is so competitive that without direct evidence, there's no way any woman can point her finger at sexism as the reason she's not working. Even if she gets harassed by some pervert producer, that doesn't mean it's an industry-wide thing. Most composers aren't working, male or female.

And I'm not saying sexism doesn't exist in general, because it obviously does. But for heaven's sake. Open any newspaper or magazine, or click on any website. Mike's ad?! This woman appears to be off her rocker.


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## Mike Greene (Dec 19, 2015)

Mike Greene said:


> I plan to post a full response on their FB page, including what I _actually_ wrote to Louise . . .


Aaaaand . . . my post got deleted. Unbelievable.


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## Farkle (Dec 19, 2015)

Mike Greene said:


> Aaaaand . . . my post got deleted. Unbelievable.



I'm kinda steering this back towards the "thoughts about Deniz Hughes" component of this... but, after watching/reading her responses to posts on her FB page, but also what content she focuses on...

Does what she focuses on, and what she brings out in her FB posts, make you want to study with her?

Regardless of her points, and her positions, etc... each of the potential students should ask themselves "is what Deniz is focusing on what I want to learn about developing my career as a film (NOT TELEVISION) composer?"

Only each of you can answer this question, but it's an important question for you to ask. I believe her FB group is designed for her to create more student opportunities, so ask yourself, do you want to be her student?

Best,

Mike


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## Baron Greuner (Dec 20, 2015)

chimuelo said:


> How are the sales?
> 
> For the offended women, get revenge watching Hillary beat up those girly men in that staged media event later tonight.
> OMalley might rap again and Bernie will sing.
> But next year Hillary gets crushed by the voice of the King.



Hey Deniz! Which Bunny are you Baby?!

I thought Hillary looked good as a Bunny in those days and so did Bill. Will all this come out at the next election?


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## marclawsonmusic (Dec 20, 2015)

Mike Greene said:


> Aaaaand . . . my post got deleted. Unbelievable.



Hahaha! I am not surprised.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 20, 2015)

Mike Greene- I just have to say it-I'm disappointed in you. Very, very disappointed. I used to think you were a principled fellow, an egalitarian, a man who would never let fly a horribly sexist piece of marketing, and yet, you have been tried and convicted for your obvious sins. Thank goodness you were not allowed to respond at your sentencing hearing- who knows how many OTHERS you might have offended??

Additionally, this selling of Ladies has GOT to stop. Pimping is still illegal in America last I heard... how, HOW I ask you, can you continue to flout the law so egregiously??

It is obvious to me that you were NOT given enough timeouts by an authoritarian female figure, NOT denied milk and cookies often enough, NOT spanked long and hard, thereby leading you down the path that led to your vile and heinous attitudes towards women. Permissiveness has obviously led you to disrespect.

I am NEVER buying another of your products (until you stop letting me beta test them, at which time I'll be all over them like white on...well...never mind.)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 21, 2015)

Actually I just read something about a study showing that our brains aren't different after all. It was in the last couple of weeks.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 21, 2015)

http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-no-male-female-brain-20151130-story.html


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## Kejero (Dec 23, 2015)

Mike Greene said:


> Aaaaand . . . my post got deleted. Unbelievable.


You can't win this one. I have no idea who Deniz is. She has supposedly done it all ("For years Deniz has worked at the highest levels of the entertainment industry" ~ she writes about herself on her website), but I can't find a snippet of actual music anywhere. She seems to have a huge "us-against-them" attitude, not just when it comes to gender, but obviously when it comes to directors/producers as well. I can't help but get the impression that her personal experience in the real world of film scoring has not been a very positive one -- for whatever reasons -- so she retreated to the academic world where she's now painting a very bleak picture of this world for anyone who'se willing to take her word for it.

This sexism thing is clearly deeply rooted for her. That's why you can't win this. Sexism is definitely a real problem; any form of discrimination is. And when you get confronted with it constantly, any sense of nuance gets lost. It all just piles on. Actual discrimination, silly jokes, satire, the difference becomes irrelevant. If you're not a victim and not doing anything to solve the problem, let alone take it seriously, then in the eyes of the victim you're the enemy, and there's nothing you can do or say to change that. And that's a very unfortunate attitude, and definitely not a constructive one, but it's never gonna be the "victims" who're gonna fix the problem. Heck, it shouldn't be. 

Where does that put "us"? "Us", as in people who don't discriminate, and who aren't victims? I'd say somewhere on the sidelines, where a lot of discussion is being held without any real consequences. And where it's easy to grow a thick skin. And joke about it. And that's fine. Mike's ad isn't part of the problem, it's an observation of a situation, and actually draws attention to the ridiculousness of the industry being a male-dominated thing. It doesn't condone it, it arguably even condemns it. I'm not gonna go as far as to say it's part of "the solution", but it raises awareness just as much as feminists do when they publicly condemn other people.


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