# Just wondering - why did Bela D thread get locked?



## TuwaSni (Feb 11, 2010)

Just wondering why the Bela D/copy protection thread got locked. Seems to me it was a very valid and relevant discussion that affects developers and all of our customers.
There's still a lot to be said and a lot more info to be shared.

Tuwa Sni


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Feb 11, 2010)

The title changed that I can see, not it being locked.


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## noiseboyuk (Feb 11, 2010)

It looks like VI figured the inter-developer scrap was out of order, which I guess is fair enough. But its a shame cos the thread was raising some very interesting and important points. And as the OP of the other thread, I didn't change the title... odd.


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## RiffWraith (Feb 11, 2010)

It's pretty clear why it was locked from what Fredrick had to say:



> Developers slamming developers....
> 
> Look - if you guys want to slug it out offline and then go have beers later, that's fine.
> 
> - thread locked.



And it is probably he who changed the title. I agree the discussion was interesting and relevent for the most part, but I do not blame Fredreick one bit for the title change and lock.

Maybe start it up again, and hope everyone remains respectful of one another?

Cheers.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 11, 2010)

I think that what Frank said is completely straightforward: it's too expensive for his company to license NI players, and they can't release unprotected libraries, therefore he's forced to look at other players.

Wouldn't it be a shame if we chased Frank away for posting an honest reply?


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## José Herring (Feb 11, 2010)

Francis has a history of being a hot head. Even going so far as calling and sending emails to posters that disagree with him. 

He once took issue with me over something that I didn't even say. In general in the past he's treated people associated with this forum as his enemies. On trying to smooth it over I sent him an email a few years back. He sent me back some rude response basically slamming anyone that was involved in this forum.

Personally after years of self banishment from this forum I was surprised to see him back. If I recall correctly he was one of only two members that have ever been banned from this form. Though the ban was lifted after a few days.

He has a forum that he pays for where he can rant all day long about such things. Why do it here.

Personally, I'm glad that Frederick locked the thread, because trust me it would have gone south super fast. And whoever this edrummer guy is obviously has something against Francis and was looking for a fight.

It's one thing for individuals to have disagreements but for a company that uses forums to push their products to start in on each other is the lamest form of "discussion" I can possibly think of.

I actually think the guy has some decent products but given the fact that he's come on this forum in the past acting like a total jackass and that he's personally taken offense to some pretty honest critique of his products really, really turns me off from his company.

The way I see it this forum is for composers helping composers. If a developer comes on here pushing his wares then we reserve the right to evaluate these products. Some of it may be unflattering. Oh well.

I honestly thought that edrummer had a valid point though. But, it hardly concerns any of us. I honestly buy the libraries that I use. If somebody wants to steal them then that's their business. It's the developers concern. As a composer I could care or less. That Francis wants to move his products to another platform. More power to him. But, personally I think it will hurt his sales more than help. I'm sick of locked players and won't buy most libraries that way. Not unless I have to. 

Jose


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## PavlovsCat (Feb 11, 2010)

[quote:a7c1fd1f52="josejherring @ Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:06 pm"]Francis has a history of being a hot head. Even going so far as calling and sending emails to posters that disagree with him. 

He once took issue with me over something that I didn't even say. In general in the past he's treated people associated with this forum as his enemies. On trying to smooth it over I sent him an email a few years back. He sent me back some rude response basically slamming anyone that was involved in this forum.

Personally after years of self banishment from this forum I was surprised to see him back. If I recall correctly he was one of only two members that have ever been banned from this form. Though the ban was lifted after a few days.

He has a forum that he pays for where he can rant all day long about such things. Why do it here.

Personally, I'm glad that Frederick locked the thread, because trust me it would have gone south super fast. And whoever this edrummer guy is obviously has something against Francis and was looking for a fight.

It's one thing for individuals to have disagreements but for a company that uses forums to push their products to start in on each other is the lamest form of "discussion" I can possibly think of.

I actually think the guy has some decent products but given the fact that he's come on thisò‘g   ÄKÖ‘g   ÄK×‘g   ÄKØ‘g   ÄKÙ‘g   ÄKÚ‘g   ÄKÛ‘g   ÄKÜ‘g   ÄKÝ‘g   ÄKÞ‘g   ÄKß‘g   ÄKà‘g   ÄKá‘g   ÄKâ‘g   ÄKã‘g   ÄKä‘g   ÄKå‘g   ÄKæ‘g   ÄKç‘g   ÄKè‘g   ÄKé‘g   ÄKê‘g   ÄKë‘g   ÄKì‘g   ÄKí‘g   ÄKî‘g   ÄKï‘g   ÄKð‘g   ÄKñ‘g   ÄKò‘g   ÄKó‘g   ÄKô‘g   ÄKõ‘g   ÄKö‘g   ÄK÷‘g   ÄKø‘g   ÄKù‘g   ÄKú‘g   ÄKû‘g   ÄKü‘g   ÄKý‘g   ÄKþ‘g   ÄKÿ‘g   ÄL ‘g   ÄL‘g   ÄL‘g   ÄL‘g   ÄL‘g   ÄL‘g   ÄL‘g   ÄL‘g   ÄL‘g   ÄL	‘g   ÄL
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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 11, 2010)

To be clear, I have no issue with Frederick locking the thread, and I'm not commenting on whether or not Francis has a temper (nor in all honesty do I care if he does). I do care if developers are chased away from here with unnecessary silliness.

It would be one thing if Francis had released a children's choir that causes your chair to accelerate suddenly and then stonewalled for a long time before recalling it under duress. I don't think that's the case here.


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## a.leung (Feb 11, 2010)

That was one of THE most interesting threads here I felt. Definitely worth a good discussion. I found what was MOST interesting is how people like to argue that piracy is a waste of time fighting and really does not impact developer sales and yet weve heard (from a developer) that it obviously DOES. 

THe other point of interest is the point made that Native Instruments wants quite a sum of money apparently to run developer libraries on their respective engines. And yet I've heard form OTHER developers saying that that is not true. 

Affordability for one developer may be relative to the affordability of another but I would like to know what N.I. actually is charging developers for the use of their software.


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## PavlovsCat (Feb 11, 2010)

a.leung @ Thu Feb 11 said:


> That was one of THE most interesting threads here I felt. Definitely worth a good discussion. I found what was MOST interesting is how people like to argue that piracy is a waste of time fighting and really does not impact developer sales and yet weve heard (from a developer) that it obviously DOES.
> 
> THe other point of interest is the point made that Native Instruments wants quite a sum of money apparently to run developer libraries on their respective engines. And yet I've heard form OTHER developers saying that that is not true.
> 
> Affordability for one developer may be relative to the affordability of another but I would like to know what N.I. actually is charging developers for the use of their software.



Well, my posts were a part of that dialog, and I definitely made the point that piracy does affect sales. However, I do not think that a small developer should become overly focused on piracy -- and get derailed off of running the business -- and I also think that Francis' was attributing his poor sales to piracy when there were clearly other issues such as a lack of promotion and a product selection that serves a very small niche. It actually was in no way an attack on him. Yes, I am not a fan of Francis behavior, but my advice was sincere, and I am confident, if followed it would be helpful. I've helped a lot of small developers over the years and seen some do really well in growing their business by understanding the fundamentals of marketing -- by determining which products they should develop, how they should price them, distribute them, and promote them. In actuality, I've just done it as an extension of my music hobby (I'm a former drummer who is just a hobbyist in my old age), but marketing is my living and I specialize in technology marketing and these issues I am addressing are the fundamentals of my profession -- so I've enjoyed helping out many developers whose products I use over the years.


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## Ben H (Feb 11, 2010)

EDIT


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## PavlovsCat (Feb 11, 2010)

Ben H. I've already stated that I am not a fan of his behavior and I have witnessed it for a few years on KVR and NorthernSounds. I'm not hiding that. BTW, one of the quotes you attributed to me was from someone else, this one: "He has a forum that he pays for where he can rant all day long about such things. Why do it here." 

But my interest in the original thread definitely wasn't all around Francis' behavior, in case you didn't notice, it was around attributing poor sales to piracy and how I believe developers should balance dealing with piracy and managing the business. For the record, I've been quoted by Interpol on this topic in a major paper on Internet piracy and have been interviewed in marketing and tech publications like Wired, etc. where I've covered issues like this. It's something I have worked with for many years. That's what led me to addressing Frank attributing his poor sales to piracy. I don't doubt that piracy has impacted his and every other software developers business -- and I am very disturbed by piracy. However, you cannot merely attribute poor sales to piracy and in this case, I think it is the wrong attribution. I think it has greatly to do with product selection and a lack of promotion and brand awareness. That's hardly picking a fight with Francis. It is a serious analysis. The more behavioral comments were not the central point I was making in that thread. Anyhow, I'm more interested in talking about piracy, not about Francis.

I do believe that just about everyone in this community here cares about seeing developers do well and is bothered by piracy.


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## gregjazz (Feb 11, 2010)

a.leung @ Thu Feb 11 said:


> THe other point of interest is the point made that Native Instruments wants quite a sum of money apparently to run developer libraries on their respective engines. And yet I've heard form OTHER developers saying that that is not true.
> 
> Affordability for one developer may be relative to the affordability of another but I would like to know what N.I. actually is charging developers for the use of their software.



The exact price depends on the size of the library, MSRP, etc. There's a minimum order quantity of 1,000 licenses--so if you plan on releasing single instrument libraries, it's a large investment to make for every product. However, to release a large collection of instruments it's a viable investment, IMO.

Personally I'm not too concerned about piracy. Whether a library has copy protection or not, it's only a matter of time before people are pirating it. For example, there is not only an unextractor for Kontakt Player monolith libraries, but also a patcher which disables the copy protection. Like I said, it's only a matter of time before people crack sample libraries despite what sort of copy protection it sports.

In my opinion, I prefer no copy protection, or at least something very minimal and convenient, as opposed to copy protection that ends up negatively affecting legitimate customers.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 11, 2010)

eDrummist, the problem is that you and I can only sit in our armchairs and make guesses, but Francis knows where his sales come from. What if his retailers refuse to carry a product that isn't copy-protected, for example?


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## PavlovsCat (Feb 11, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Feb 11 said:


> eDrummist, the problem is that you and I can only sit in our armchairs and make guesses, but Francis knows where his sales come from. What if his retailers refuse to carry a product that isn't copy-protected, for example?



Well Nick, Francis was attributing his poor sales to piracy in statements, not to any retail channel issues, so that was the point I was addressing. And, make no mistake, while I'm not a fan of Francis' behavior, I have reached out to offer advice in the past and even today had PMed him (it was a very friendly message), and found that he violated my privacy by posting my personal information he acquired privately in the past in the previous thread today. 

I've watched (and helped) as developers like Orange Tree Samples, Lyrical Distortion, Steven Slate, Camel Audio, Pettinhouse, Sonic Reality and others that have grown their businesses by focusing on making the right product choices and building their brands/businesses, not taking their eyes off that objective by focusing too much attention or rationalizing shortcomings on the very troubling problem of piracy. Another newcomer to the developer world whose work I love, but I haven't helped out, is Tonehammer. I don't know how well their sales are doing, but I can see that there is extremely favorable word of mouth about them and I suspect their sales are good -- I can see that they are really focused on building their business -- and their products definitely seem to be more pirated than Bela D's judging from some online searches. In fact, the more popular your products are, the more piracy you will see -- there is definitely a direct correlation and it occurs for products with greater sales, not less sales. And their products do not feature any copy protection/anti-piracy measures. So, my point isn't that developers should avoid anti-piracy measures, but that if a developer runs a smart business with the right products, strategy and tactics, that business can still prosper, despite piracy and that piracy is not necessarily a legitimate rationalization for poor product sales just because one says it is.


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## nikolas (Feb 11, 2010)

eDrummist: I doubt Frank ever asked you for advice. Heck I've never been asked for such advice by any developer, only Andrew K. asked me a question about shipping in europe and that was it pretty much! (and a little chatter but irrelavent).

I have no idea how you are getting this idea that you can publicly post all of these, *without any information* and keep assuming you are helping. That along with the comments aimed at Frank... An opinion, is an opinion and, especially over here we all seem to offer them, but yours went a step ahead into "advice"! :(

I'm honestly not surprised at the locked thread and Franks reaction.


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## PavlovsCat (Feb 11, 2010)

nikolas @ Thu Feb 11 said:


> eDrummist: I doubt Frank ever asked you for advice. Heck I've never been asked for such advice by any developer, only Andrew K. asked me a question about shipping in europe and that was it pretty much! (and a little chatter but irrelavent).
> 
> I have no idea how you are getting this idea that you can publicly post all of these, *without any information* and keep assuming you are helping. That along with the comments aimed at Frank... An opinion, is an opinion and, especially over here we all seem to offer them, but yours went a step ahead into "advice"! :(
> 
> I'm honestly not surprised at the locked thread and Franks reaction.



I was offering my point of view regarding the assertion that piracy is destroying a small niche software developer's business. It was an analysis and not advising Francis. In fact, the thread wasn't even started by Francis and he didn't even do his first post until after I made a few posts. Just as you are giving your point of view in your above post. As I mentioned earlier, I'm not amateur on this topic, hence, the reason for my deep interest and analysis -- my interest in this area goes far beyond the thread. But I don't think there is anything wrong with my expressing my point of view or opinion or advice (which can be synonymous, by the way), it's what I do when I consult to companies and aò‘‰   Ä[G‘‰   Ä[H‘‰   Ä[I‘‰   Ä[J‘‰   Ä[K‘‰   Ä[L‘‰   Ä[M‘‰   Ä[N‘‰   Ä[O‘Š   Ä[P‘Š   Ä[Q‘Š   Ä[R‘Š   Ä[S‘Š   Ä[T‘Š   Ä[U‘‹   Ä[V‘‹   Ä[W‘‹   Ä[X‘‹   Ä[Y‘‹   Ä[Z‘‹   Ä[[‘‹   Ä[\‘‹   Ä[]‘‹   Ä[^‘‹   Ä[_‘‹   Ä[`‘‹   Ä[a‘‹   Ä[b‘‹   Ä[c‘‹   Ä[d‘‹   Ä[e‘‹   Ä[f‘‹   Ä[g‘‹   Ä[h‘‹   Ä[i‘‹   Ä[j‘‹   Ä[k‘‹   Ä[l‘‹   Ä[m‘‹   Ä[n‘‹   Ä[o‘‹   Ä[p‘‹   Ä[q‘‹   Ä[r‘‹   Ä[s‘‹   Ä[t‘‹   Ä[u‘‹   Ä[v‘‹   Ä[w‘‹   Ä[x‘‹   Ä[y‘‹   Ä[z‘‹   Ä[{‘‹   Ä[|‘‹   Ä[}‘‹   Ä[~‘‹   Ä[‘‹   Ä[€‘‹   Ä[‘‹   Ä[‚‘‹   Ä[ƒ‘‹   Ä[„‘‹   Ä[…‘‹   Ä[†‘‹   Ä[‡‘‹   Ä[ˆ‘‹   Ä[‰‘‹   Ä[Š‘‹   Ä[‹‘‹   Ä[Œ‘‹   Ä[‘Œ   Ä[Ž


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## Olias (Feb 11, 2010)

eDrummist @ Thu Feb 11 said:


> I would much prefer to talk about the problem of piracy and perspectives than your specific business.



And your preference is something Francis should take as gospel? :lol:


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## PavlovsCat (Feb 11, 2010)

Olias @ Fri Feb 12 said:


> eDrummist @ Thu Feb 11 said:
> 
> 
> > I would much prefer to talk about the problem of piracy and perspectives than your specific business.
> ...



It will be evident by my actions.


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## PavlovsCat (Feb 11, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Feb 11 said:


> I'm afraid Nikolas is right, eDrummist. Is Frank really supposed to release an unprotected Kontakt version just because you advise him to on the internet?



Nick, I never commented that a developer -- Francis or any other developer -- should not explore anti-piracy measures. On the contrary, I think they should, just not obsess over it or rationalize all their major business problems as all being attributable to piracy. As a DAW user and sample library customer, I have a lot of libraries with the Kontakt sample player (which is largely a security mechanism as well as a player; in my case, I own the full version of Kontakt). I've worked developers who use the Kontakt sample player and others who've approached NI for player as an anti-piracy and marketing measure (as many sample library buyers don't own Kontakt) and unfortunately, like Francis described in his post, they also did not have sufficient sales (1,000 units) for NI to license a Kontakt sample player for them. Further, I have not been commenting here as an advisor to Francis or any other developer (maybe I should start doing legal disclaimers if someone thinks that's what I am doing!), I'm here sharing my thoughts with others in the community -- just as you and others are. 

Funny, but during this dialog, I am getting emails and PMs from some developers watching this thread and stating things like -- hey that user isn't disclosing he's gotten software for free from Francis or has this relationship or that -- but anyhow, let's stop talking about Francis' business and get on to the issue of addressing piracy -- I can see that he has supporters here who feel this is a battle and I don't want it to be; I'm more interested in the larger issue of piracy.


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## nikolas (Feb 11, 2010)

Agreed. Let's close this discussion in this thread and let's allow edrummist to open a new one about piracy, since he's so concerned about this issue, and so knowledhable actually. (no sarcasm intended I promise).

Any reasonable person would stop discussing about the fact that he did not mean things about Francis but about general issues in piracy, and actually start a new thread!

Awaiting then!


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## PavlovsCat (Feb 11, 2010)

nikolas @ Fri Feb 12 said:


> Agreed. Let's close this discussion in this thread and let's allow edrummist to open a new one about piracy, since he's so concerned about this issue, and so knowledhable actually. (no sarcasm intended I promise).
> 
> Any reasonable person would stop discussing about the fact that he did not mean things about Francis but about general issues in piracy, and actually start a new thread!
> 
> Awaiting then!



Okay, actually I'm ready for bed. We've taken this one to its limits -- completely agreed. I should have said piracy and how developers can balance running their business and piracy. That's really what I care about. I love the products some of the small developers make and I want them to prosper -- that's why I've advised some of my favorites. Ah, I was tired enough to have overlooked your taking a shot at me. And I never even called you out for taking freebies from Francis and not disclosing it. In ths US, all businesses are required to ensure those they give free product disclose it in posts (FTC regulations). I have been clear on my opinion of Francis' behavior. Not disclosing getting freebies when you are speaking in defense of a developer is at minimum, disingenuous. Come on. Play nice.

EDIT: FTR, I haven't retracted any statements I made regarding Francis' attributing his business possibly closing due to piracy as Nikolas is implying. I stand behind my remarks and they are stated as I intended, no less. I am saying are principles regarding piracy and the concerns for a developer not becoming obsessed with piracy and attributing business problems to piracy and, as a result, neglecting what may be real underlying issues that the developer can address applies to all small developers and is, in all actuality, the advice I have given to many small software developers over the years. Of course, it's a bit different at the Fortune 500 level where you have millions to try to address this area -- however, you still can't stop piracy and need to focus 99% or more of your resources on running the business.


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## nikolas (Feb 11, 2010)

say what??!?!?

I have never gotten any for free from Francis. Ive won pianoteq in a competition, was given Garritan Steinway from Gary himself and that's about it. Íve no idea what you mean about freebies etc, since I've mentioned nothing, nor e-mailed, or pm you, or anything AT ALL! ~o) 

I don't make personal coments so I'm not really taking a shot at you, just at your posts, but oh well...

Have a pleasent sleep and looking forward to your post in the morning!


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## PavlovsCat (Feb 11, 2010)

nikolas @ Fri Feb 12 said:


> say what??!?!?
> 
> I have never gotten any for free from Francis. Ive won pianoteq in a competition, was given Garritan Steinway from Gary himself and that's about it. Íve no idea what you mean about freebies etc, since I've mentioned nothing, nor e-mailed, or pm you, or anything AT ALL! ~o)
> 
> ...



I had two sources on that information, one very very close to your freebie. So I'm very confident that information is accurate. I could give specific details (CGEmpire days), but I'll leave it to you to disclose as much as you like or prefer not to disclose. And your sarcasm is neither subtle nor appreciated.


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## noiseboyuk (Feb 11, 2010)

Blimey...

The reason I started the other thread in the first place is that for me (and I think for many of us) Kontakt is, by a long way, the best sample platform. Obviously some very big libs exclusively use it (Symphobia, LASS, CH etc), so its hardly becoming extinct, but the piracy issues are really beginning to concern me. I was especially interested to hear Francis' thoughts on watermarking, as used by Cinesamples... seems like a potentially clever and useful way forward that may increase copy-protection within the existing Kontakt framework.

On the general point, I hate to say it but I think dongles are more secure. Not totally secure by any means. But in general, it seems to slow piracy down until it is cracked - and once its cracked its cracked. But that's better than nothing. So of course I do have sympathy with developers wanting to protect their products.

IMHO Native Instruments really need to address two very important issues - first, find ways of beefing up their copy protection without recourse to dongles (how secure, for example, is Toontrack's similar-but-different system?); second, review their charges to third party lib developers. As a Kontakt-lover, I'm very concerned about this apparent stampede away from the platform by developers (thinking of EWQL and Garritan here) - its us users who suffer.


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## PavlovsCat (Feb 11, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Fri Feb 12 said:


> Blimey...
> 
> The reason I started the other thread in the first place is that for me (and I think for many of us) Kontakt is, by a long way, the best sample platform. Obviously some very big libs exclusively use it (Symphobia, LASS, CH etc), so its hardly becoming extinct, but the piracy issues are really beginning to concern me. I was especially interested to hear Francis' thoughts on watermarking, as used by Cinesamples... seems like a potentially clever and useful way forward that may increase copy-protection within the existing Kontakt framework.
> 
> ...



I'm a Kontakt fan too, but do you really think there's a stampede away from Kontakt? I just think it's diversity and I think some developers want more control over the sample player or they don't want to pay the licensing fees and jump through NI's hoops. I mean, I have Kontakt libraries from SampleTekk, Orange Tree Samples, Vir2 BASiS and VI.One, Lyrical Distortion, Pettinhouse, Boulder Sounds, SonicCouture, PrecisionSound, Steven Slate Drums, Ocean Way Drums, Sonic Reality and other developers that continue to make libraries for Kontakt. I think it's still the top choice for independent developers. I do wish that NI would work something out with smaller developers to enable them to affordably license them Kontakt sampler, which offers them some level of anti-piracy (as compared to offering a sample library with no anti-piracy system) as well as the ability to reach consumers who do not own the full version of Kontakt. Although, frankly, as a full version Kontakt (and Komplete) user, I'm pretty happy to not have to pay the extra costs that would entail or deal with the extra steps.


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## uselessmind (Feb 11, 2010)

gregjazz @ Thu Feb 11 said:


> Personally I'm not too concerned about piracy. Whether a library has copy protection or not, it's only a matter of time before people are pirating it. For example, there is not only an unextractor for Kontakt Player monolith libraries, but also a patcher which disables the copy protection. Like I said, it's only a matter of time before people crack sample libraries despite what sort of copy protection it sports.
> 
> In my opinion, I prefer no copy protection, or at least something very minimal and convenient, as opposed to copy protection that ends up negatively affecting legitimate customers.



And its very much appreciated that you don't try to punish your customers because of other people potentially stealing your products.
When i didn't know your company i was (as usual) sceptical about the quality of your products. 
The way you helped me making sure they where for me is outstanding and it wouldn't have been possible if you would worry about piracy all day.

So you converted me from being afraid to waste my money on your products to a loyal and very happy customer.


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## lux (Feb 11, 2010)

Frederick made the right thing.


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## noiseboyuk (Feb 11, 2010)

eDrummist @ Fri Feb 12 said:


> I'm a Kontakt fan too, but do you really think there's a stampede away from Kontakt?



I'm concerned about the trend, yes - EWQL and Garritan are two big players, and I do take Francis' words seriously and figure that many other small developers must be going through the same issues. So while there are still plenty of big names now - can we really be sure there will still be as many in a few years time? I can see this issue being the one that ends Kontakt's reign as the Sampler To Rule Them All if NI sit on their hands with this.


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## Nick Phoenix (Feb 12, 2010)

Kontakt became the sampler to rule them all, partly because of the support of a bunch of sample developers. They do charge a lot these days to license their player and that contributed to some sample developers going their own way. There are other very good reasons as well. Most of the good stuff being produced these days wouldn't exist if it weren't for copy protection. It's annoying for the paying customer to deal with CP, but it benefits everyone in the end.


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## lux (Feb 12, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Fri Feb 12 said:


> They do charge a lot these days to license their player and that contributed to some sample developers going their own way.



i think this raises a very interesting point that i rarely see evidenced in discussions about players choices. I've heard nightmare stories about percentages charged by NI for simply using their player, so that i can understand why they leave.

Real problem is that, apart of what EW and VSL are developing into their respective players, the other stuff out there have very limited features, expecially related to scripting and internal behaviours.


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## germancomponist (Feb 12, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Fri Feb 12 said:


> Kontakt became the sampler to rule them all, partly because of the support of a bunch of sample developers. They do charge a lot these days to license their player and that contributed to some sample developers going their own way. There are other very good reasons as well. Most of the good stuff being produced these days wouldn't exist if it weren't for copy protection. It's annoying for the paying customer to deal with CP, but it benefits everyone in the end.



+1

The bad thing will be: When more and more sample developers went their own way, they, NI, do for sure charge less money to license their player, but perhaps too late for some good sample developers and for themselves. 

The NI`s pricing policy is maybe wrong. Why do the sample developers have to pay for 1000 instances first? Ok, NI have to work on any library, but 1000 for a little company is very much.


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## nikolas (Feb 12, 2010)

eDrummist @ Fri Feb 12 said:


> nikolas @ Fri Feb 12 said:
> 
> 
> > say what??!?!?
> ...


When you wake up let me know what I own from Bela, cause I'd be interested to search in my studio... In public or through PM, I don't really care. And feel free to share the two sources, cause I'd also be interested in that as well! It could be that I'm forgetting something I but I highly doubt it...

So I actually dare you to reveal everything you know about my Bela D. Media freebies! Cause I'd also be interested to know! :D Come on, don't throw accusations like that, provide some proof will ya?

(For the public interest, Bela, as well as Kirk Hunter, EW, Garritan, Toontrack, Modartt, Notion and many other companies have sponsored competitions at CGEmpire. If edrummist means that, then he's just playing silly)

Finally, all I said was that if you have such a high interest in piracy, kontakt, etc, go ahead and open a new thread, leaving Bela D. Media alone. That's all.


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## Aaron Dirk (Feb 12, 2010)

nikolas @ Fri Feb 12 said:


> So I actually dare you to reveal everything you know about my Bela D. Media freebies! Cause I'd also be interested to know! :D Come on, don't throw accusations like that, provide some proof will ya?


Ooo a dare, last time I heard a dare, I got arrested (but dropped) I also got kicked off the school bus for a dare while the kid pointed at his chin :mrgreen: ahhhh to be Greek :wink: 

GregJazz told eDrummist to go easy because you were a good friend and you were probably going on the defensive because you received an NFR.
They turned to me, and I responded "yes"
Just like when Francis turned to me and asked if it was ok if he could give you an NFR and I responded "yes"

So there you have it, regardless of how you twist it in the public interest, a freebie is a freebie.
Now, from one Greek to another Greek, if you really want to go round and round how I just called your dare ~ "I'll be your Huckleberry" :wink: 

Now for my public disclaimer - I do not wake up and think "What can I do to ruin it for Francis" I work very hard night and day building Lyrical Distortion, it's all about looking forward, not in the past. I have nothing to gain by it
Second, I do have to agree with some of eDrummist points (and not to just to stab Francis in the back) Since all our stuff doesn't have the slightest bit of copy protection, I just can't afford to dwell on it. Does it suck? F%@% ya it does (sorry, it's the only word to put it) To put ridiculous amount of work into libraries and google your own company name just sucks. But I'm very passionate about what I do and I have to put all my energy into moving forward to make up for the fact. I don't think I'm going to gain more sales by dwelling on piracy, that comes from working hard and putting my best foot forward. Sooner or later the right opportunity will present itself to combat piracy ...for a while.


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## nikolas (Feb 12, 2010)

Ok, this is getting ridiculous.

I have NOT received a NFR (Not For Resale) product From Bela D. Media for personal use. Bela sponsored a CGEmpire competition more than 2 years ago and that was about it. Francis never gave me an NFR! NEVER! I don't own anything from Bela apart from DIVA (the 2 DVDs, which I bought) and the then offer the third sound design DIVA. 

So there we are. I don't own a freebie, I know Greg for a very long time, much before he begun sampling and that's about it.

(and to be clear Greg also gave me an NFR from Manytone, the Manybass when they sponsored a CGEmpire competition. Sorry for forgetting about that.)

But I remain SOLID AND TRUTHFULL that I never got a freebie from Bela D. Media.

I'll talk with Greg, I have no issues with him, but other than that: WTF?!?!?! I repeat, I have never gotten anything for free, from Bela D. Media. You can complain, ensist, but the truth of the matter is that only DIVA stands in my studio (and as a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure there should be a few lists about my studio around (one in Greek, I'm certain) where nothing from Bela is mentioned. I could just be forgetful, but I honestly have never used something from Bela.

And you know what is MORE funny? That I never got anything from Bela because I simply didn't have kontakt for a very very long time, exactly why I didn't get anything from Kirk hunter. I got a crossgrade of Kontakt 3, in order to get into the group buy from Orange Tree Samples, a few months ago (summer?) and that was about it... 

So, which one of you (edrummist, or Aaron) will come over to Athens, for a beer, or coffee and to check that indeed there's nothing else from Bela in my studio? Cause if it is, you will need to apologize for the simple reason: I stand up for what I believe and for whatever reasons I think are right. I support and dissapproove with my own agenta and I'm a puppet of none!

GET IT?!? :(


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## chimuelo (Feb 12, 2010)

As usual I shall try and bring an alternate perspective to the thread.
I think this whole piracy thing is despicable and developers are the only ones who know whats best for them.
But, if you would like to take a chance, there is precedent for this, and the RIAA already has decided that sample libraries are recordings so....
Years ago a star in the industry was in a popular British band that resided in the States. The self proclaimed "main" songwriter went his own way and was using differnt signed groups to showcase himself to various management companies, but it turns out he was only one of the talented songwriters of the group.
He chose to go with an already signed group as the showcases weren't really doing as good as he expected.
The new band was with one of the big 4 labels back in the '80s and they were under pressure to release an album and promote it through Radio and a planned tour.
One of his X band mates heard some of the demos and was smart enough to keep quiet. Turns out they released one of his songs re worked to purposely sound like a new composition.
A rather wise A & R guy had trial experience with the RIAA before had advised the chap to wait and see how well the song was doing. It didn't do very well but because of the interviews on national radio ( common self promotion back then ) and the fact the song got repeated air time, the A & R guy and X Bandmate had precedent to sue the label, to sue any distibutor and radio stations the aired the tune, and sue the band and the plageristic " composer."
This resulted in a multi million dollar out of court settlement as the Record distributors were forced to reveal their names in the process, and they also owned the network of radio stations, etc. ANyways the guy laid in wait and made a fortune.
If I were a developer I would make a really great library instrument that had specific qualities that could be forensically tested via Oscilliscope, and make sure to post the instrument with very little copy protection, and hope the library makes it onto a keyboardists rig on a major tour, or on a new release or in a Movie Score.
Then retain an entertainment lawyers services, and kick back and wait for the out of court settlements.
Makes me wonder why anyone would purchase the rights to Gigastudio...?
Who said you can't feed a dead horse.


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## Hollow Sun (Feb 12, 2010)

eDrummist @ Thu Feb 11 said:


> As for the subject change. I am guessing that Francis threatened to sue the OP and the owner of this forum.


Total speculation ... and totally wrong. Another member changed the thread title someway through and it continued with that title until Frederick (rightly) locked it.

You make many incorrect assertions about Francis and/or Bela-D and his/their business policy, not just here but at KVR on more than several occasions due, as I recall, to some distant gripe you appear to have with the Northern Sounds forum or something or other and I am sorry, but you DO seem to poke your head over the parapet any time some reference to Bela-D is made. 

Some might call 'troll', others might call 'vendetta', not for me to comment - frankly, I don't know what to make of it. :roll:


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## PavlovsCat (Feb 12, 2010)

nikolas @ Fri Feb 12 said:


> So, which one of you (edrummist, or Aaron) will come over to Athens, for a beer, or coffee and to check that indeed there's nothing else from Bela in my studio? Cause if it is, you will need to apologize for the simple reason: I stand up for what I believe and for whatever reasons I think are right. I support and dissapproove with my own agenta and I'm a puppet of none!
> 
> GET IT?!? :(



Nikolas, I would buy you a six pack if you would quit taking cheap shots at me in every one of your posts.  

As far as whether or not you personally used a freebie you received from Bela D or used it as a giveaway, it's really the same thing -- it shows you received something of monetary value for free from that developer, which certainly means that you have a relationship that you did not disclose in this thread (certainly, other people cannot merely get these products from Bela D for free, as you did). In the US, you would have been required to disclose that in posts to comply with our FTC legislation -- it doesn't matter if you used the product or passed it on. Anyhow, let's not spend anymore time on that. Let's move on -- it's not going to yield anything good to spend more time on that stuff. It's a new day (well, at least where I live), let's start it out on a better track.


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## PavlovsCat (Feb 12, 2010)

Hollow Sun @ Fri Feb 12 said:


> eDrummist @ Thu Feb 11 said:
> 
> 
> > As for the subject change. I am guessing that Francis threatened to sue the OP and the owner of this forum.
> ...



Steve, come on with the name calling. You have a business relationship with Francis. 

So, because over several years, Francis has commented in two of my threads and called me some pretty nasty things and I've commented in around three threads regarding Francis' behavior and treatment of others -- threads started by other people, not Francis -- related to Bela D that in every case, seemed to draw Francis rage and result in him posting nasty things directed at me (FTR, Francis has threatened legal action against people who say anything critical of him on numerous occasions -- from customers who have created threads to me), does that mean I should never comment in a thread concerning Bela D? I'm not hiding and never did hide a thing. Yes, as I've said again and again, I don't care for Francis behavior, and I do think it is one of many factors that has negatively impacted and will continue to impact the success of his business. 

I've never once said Bela D made bad products or engaged in dishonest business practices or anything like that. I'm confident that the comments I've made regarding piracy and Bela D stand up on their own. The logic is solid, whether or not you agree with my points, so I would hardly say that I have engaged in any kind of vendetta speech. I would offer any developer -- even a good friend -- the same perspective I have stated here regarding piracy and balancing between anti-piracy and running and growing the business and also regarding his temper; I would also add that the behavioral side of how a developer acts is also an important part of the business success or failure.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 12, 2010)

You know something?

This thread is leaving me with a nasty feeling. Nobody has committed any offenses or violated any rules per se, but it's still ugly - sort of like being at a really pleasant party when someone with an intangible asshole presence comes in and ruins it.

So I hereby move that everyone ignore this thread and stop posting in it without moderators stepping in.

Please.


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## Frederick Russ (Feb 12, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Feb 12 said:


> If you're going to post dirt, please make it scandalous. This is all stupid and boring.
> 
> I want to know who's sleeping with who, who's a superfreak, that kind of thing. Otherwise this is turning into Northernenclosure junior, and I don't like it.



I agree. Let's please stop with public bashings! IMO its so unprofessional. Seems silly to mention this but there is absolutely no reason to drag VI into the mud between a personal grudge dispute. 

You two - edrummer and Francis - really need to work this out between yourselves OFFLINE. Talking about the problem with piracy etc is absolutely fine - but this online argument between you two here needs to be taken elsewhere.


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## Hollow Sun (Feb 12, 2010)

eDrummist @ Fri Feb 12 said:


> Steve, come on with the name calling. You have a business relationship with Francis.


No I do not. It's no secret that I did some looping work for Bela-D many years ago and very occasionally Francis and I, as fellow developers, are sometimes in contact with each other. But I have no "business relationship" with him or Bela-D Media. 

Wrong again! :roll:


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 12, 2010)

Please eDrummist, don't answer. It's time for everyone to STFU.


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## Ian Dorsch (Feb 12, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Feb 12 said:


> It's time for everyone to STFU.



Best advice in this thread yet! :lol:


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## Hollow Sun (Feb 12, 2010)

+1


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Feb 12, 2010)

> In the US, you would have been required to disclose that in posts to comply with our FTC legislation -- it doesn't matter if you used the product or passed it on.



What? What regulation? On a forum?


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## Mike Connelly (Feb 12, 2010)

Did you hear about the new pirate movie? It's rated Arrrrrrr.

So a pirate walks into a bar, and he has a big ship's steering wheel sticking out of the front of his pants. The bartender asks him about it, and the pirate says, "Arrrrr, it's drivin' me nuts."

Q: What did the pirate say on his eightieth birthday?
A: "I'm Eighty!"


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## nadeama (Feb 12, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ 12/2/2010 said:


> Q: What did the pirate say on his eightieth birthday?
> A: "I'm Eighty!"



I don't understand.


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## snowleopard (Feb 12, 2010)

I'd like to try to steer the conversation to something eDrummer said on page 1: 



> is likely other issues like the products are serving a very small niche, the brand is not very well known, his website is very difficult to navigate and perhaps Francis has not endeared himself in important online communities such as KVR -- address these issues and he will likely see positive improvements to sales.



I bring up this quote because in a certain context, I agree with him (I've worked in one form of advertising or another for 20 years), but there are other factors as well, such as a severe, prolonged global recession. As such, what we're getting caught up in here is what amounts to a false dilemma depending on one's interpretation. 

No one here really knows how much piracy has hurt sales, we can speculate, but we don't know, only that it does. Just in the same way the recession has hurt sales as well. We also don't know much what kind of marketing research Francis has done, or how well his studies have shown his website to be favorable. I do agree that despite putting out what I believe to be high quality libraries, it is not a well known brand. But again, we don't know what Francis budget it. There may be a reason we don't see ads for him all over the place. 

As to endearing himself to sites such as here, KVR, etc. that too is open to interpretation as to what potential buyers expect him to do, or how many would find this a benefit. This place is brutally honest, so much so it drove Nick Phoenix away for some time. I still remember last year Joe at Sample Logic getting little more than faint praise for his wonderful flagship program, Morphestra. We're a very tough crowd!


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## Aaron Sapp (Feb 12, 2010)

nadeama @ Sat Feb 13 said:


> Mike Connelly @ 12/2/2010 said:
> 
> 
> > Q: What did the pirate say on his eightieth birthday?
> ...


"Aye, Matey!"


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## david robinson (Feb 12, 2010)

the day sample libs, like VSL, are $100 for the lot, 
that's the day piracy won't be a factor anymore.
jr.


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## nadeama (Feb 13, 2010)

Aaron Sapp @ 13/2/2010 said:


> nadeama @ Sat Feb 13 said:
> 
> 
> > Mike Connelly @ 12/2/2010 said:
> ...



Oh... now I get it. :lol: 

Thanks Aaron!


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## Thonex (Feb 13, 2010)

Knock knoock

Who's there?

Phillip Glass

Knock knoock

Who's there?

Phillip Glass

Knock knoock

Who's there?

Phillip Glass

Knock knoock

Who's there?

Phillip Glass......


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## nikolas (Feb 13, 2010)

@ Andrew : HAHAHAHAHA!

Let me try now:


*l:* K 
______n
__________o
________________________k
________________c *:l*



__W
______________________t
________h
______________a




______G
__________i
__________________________s
________________________e
___________________v
________________________________________?

Anton Webern


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## Thonex (Feb 13, 2010)

:lol: :lol: Nikolas!!!

That must have taken time... you live for art!!! I can tell!!

CHeers,

Andrew K


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## Jaap (Feb 13, 2010)

Haha, great one Nikolas :D Glad you didn't dig up Ligetti


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## clonewar (Feb 13, 2010)

david robinson @ Sat Feb 13 said:


> the day sample libs, like VSL, are $100 for the lot,
> that's the day piracy won't be a factor anymore.
> jr.



The problem is that sample library developers have a finite target customer base, they're not selling shaving razors or coffee filters. Developers that have a lot of investment in production costs (especially those like Vienna and EW that invest in their own studios/soundstages) have to recoup those costs, along with operational expenses, and hopefully a profit, from that base. 

But, IF they can solve the piracy problem (which Vienna and EW have done so far since developing their own players) then hopefully we'll see lower prices. 

At least in the case of EW, their prices have dropped since moving to PLAY. Think about how much HS would have cost at release five years ago.. at least double the price, probably much higher.


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## The_Dark_Knight (Feb 13, 2010)

Here's my humble input on this...

The software industry is still the wild west. As a low profile developer working in a variable scale market you have to have a backer or other income, angel investor to fall back on. It's impossible to determine value of software or even know the scope of your audience, it's unreliable. It's much like being a modern day musician, most of us have auxiliary careers to keep a float and invest in our dream. Or we "teach", "demo", "give speeches", "do lounge gigs", "repair instruments", "make samples" etc....Is it possible you overestimated the pool of professionals? Or the definition of professionals?

I like the Reaper approach to licenses. If you want to buy it and use it for professional applications you pay more than for a general home studio. It's like the Academic versions, but the academic versions aren't cheap and do not set a clear distinction because the whole purpose of studying at a school is to one day work in the field. Many people will never actually want to make a career of music and it will remain a hobby. Their concept needs more refining and scalability but it's a great start.

Also consider...the mid-level professionals who would normally get a pirated version will be much more likely to throw money your way if there's a cheap hobbyist version. So you will get at least something from them!! Why go through the trouble of downloading 5-9 gigs, putting your name on the line for a buggy non-updated pirated version when they could just drop 50-100 bucks and get legit.

Other considerations for protection:
Police your product aggressively (tell websites to TAKE DOWN pirated stuff, monitor forums, monitor P2P, learn Russian ).
Try different price structuring such as renting.
Consider going dongle ->iLok
Consider "subscriptions" to your entire plugin line-up....customers pay the monthly fee and keep getting updates. You can have premium subscriptions or basic ones that limit the range of plugs.


As far as blaming piracy....are you guys watching this board? Are you seeing how few good jobs there are for us dedicated folks? The number of actual full time pros is much smaller pool than it seems. I would say for instance my level of dedication is more like a 60/40 split because there are so few good jobs yet so much ò’þ   ÄË’þ   ÄË’þ   ÄË’þ   ÄË’þ   ÄË’þ   ÄË’þ   ÄË’þ   ÄË’þ   ÄË’þ   ÄË’þ   ÄË’þ   ÄË’þ   ÄË ’þ   ÄË!’þ   ÄË"’þ   ÄË#’þ   ÄË$’þ   ÄË%’þ   ÄË&’þ   ÄË'’þ   ÄË(’þ   ÄË)’þ   ÄË*’þ   ÄË+’þ   ÄË,’þ   ÄË-’þ   ÄË.’þ   ÄË/’þ   ÄË0’þ   ÄË1’þ   ÄË2’þ   ÄË3’þ   ÄË4’þ   ÄË5’þ   ÄË6’þ   ÄË7’þ   ÄË8’þ   ÄË9’þ   ÄË:’þ   ÄË;’þ   ÄË<’þ   ÄË=’þ   ÄË>’þ   ÄË?’þ   ÄË@’þ   ÄËA’þ   ÄËB’þ   ÄËC’þ   ÄËD’þ   ÄËE’þ   ÄËF’þ   ÄËG’þ   ÄËH’þ   ÄËI’þ   ÄËJ’þ   ÄËK’þ   ÄËL’þ   ÄËM’þ   ÄËN’þ   ÄËO’þ   ÄËP’þ   ÄËQ’þ   ÄËR’þ   ÄËS’þ   ÄËT’þ   ÄËU’þ   ÄËV’þ   ÄËW’þ   ÄËX’þ   ÄËY’þ   ÄËZ’þ   ÄË[’þ   ÄË\’þ   ÄË]’þ   ÄË^’þ   ÄË_’þ   ÄË`’þ   ÄËa’þ   ÄËb’þ   ÄËc’þ   ÄËd’þ   ÄËe’þ   ÄËf’þ   ÄËg’þ   ÄËh’þ   ÄËi’þ   ÄËj’þ   ÄËk’þ   ÄËl’þ   ÄËm’þ   ÄËn’þ   ÄËo’þ   ÄËp’þ   ÄËq’þ   ÄËr’þ   ÄËs’þ   ÄËt’þ   ÄËu’þ   ÄËv’þ   ÄËw’þ   ÄËx’þ   ÄËy’þ   ÄËz’þ   ÄË{’þ   ÄË|’þ   ÄË}’þ   ÄË~’þ   ÄË’þ   ÄË€’þ   ÄË’þ   ÄË‚’þ   ÄËƒ              ƒæ   Äz’ÿ   ÄËõ   Ä{’ÿ   ÄÌf   Ä|“    ÄÌ×   Ä}“    ÄÍH   Ä~“    ÄÍ¹   Ä“   ÄÎ*   Ä€“   ÄÎ›   Ä“   ÄÏ   Ä‚“   ÄÏ}   Äƒ“
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## Andrew Aversa (Feb 13, 2010)

The piracy rate for iPhone Apps is ridiculous, it's something like 9:1 in terms of pirated versions vs. legit copies. And it's not really a great comparison in terms of # of sales, because 1000 sales of an iPhone app is only maybe $700 after Apple takes their cut, whereas with a sampling project you don't even need 1/10th of that sales figure to recoup the cost of a small instrument. My point was simply about consumer psychology... people that pirate don't care about the price. They will even "pirate" free stuff.

The music industry is still on a major decline in terms of total sales and revenue, DESPITE the all-time low cost of music, which is my point. Piracy is rampant regardless of price, and that's the argument I'm responding to.

Your other point is that making things cheaper will be worth it in terms of number of sales. I'm saying that you have to consider basic economics. The equilibrium point is the point at which # of sales times product price is the highest it can be. It's impossible to KNOW where that point is, so we have to just guess. Pricing a sample library at $5 might result in a ton of sales - let's say, 1000 - but this is not better than 100 sales at $100.

Let's assume $100 IS equilibrium.. and maybe at $150 there are 10 people that would buy it. Those 10 people would also buy it at $100. Thus, start at $150, get 10 sales (+$1500), gradually lower it to $100. Now you get another 90 sales (+$9000) but the result is $10,500 - $500 more than you would have gotten had you started at $100. Now you get to go even lower. Maybe you'd get 50 additional sales at $70, so you then go down to THAT and earn $3500. And then you can get another 50 at $50, so you lower it again and get $2500.

Pricing is a lot more complicated than just going as low as possible. This isn't even factoring in stuff like production costs and other supply-side influences.


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## midphase (Feb 13, 2010)

I think it's probably a bit of both. One of the main problems is that your product is only worth as much as the lowest price that you're willing to sell it for (this is why composers keep their fees so secret). If QL Pianos sold for $200 a few weeks ago, then in my mind, until it goes to that price point again I wouldn't consider buying it.


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## Andrew Aversa (Feb 13, 2010)

That indeed is another aspect of consumer retail psychology. When you do markdowns too often, people refrain from buying - they EXPECT markdowns and won't buy otherwise. East West can get away with this strategy without being hurt because they (a) DO in fact run constant promotions and (b) do NOT run promotions right after releasing a product. This is just like what Apple does; they know there are going to be early adopters and people that really need the product ASAP.

However there are some companies + retailers who basically ignore markdowns almost entirely. Look at the grocery store Trader Joe's. It's basically a slightly higher-end store that carries almost entirely its own brands, cutting out the middleman. They NEVER do markdowns or sales; they just promote constant low-prices and good value. TJs is doing pretty well, so I would say this works for them.


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## noiseboyuk (Feb 13, 2010)

I'm a little sceptical about some of the arguments here. I may (well) be wrong, but the idea that the ratio of pirated / legit iphone software is 9:1 seems pretty incredible, for example. I have no idea how to get pirated iphone software onto my iphone (nor do I want to know). I know many many iphone users, and the subject hasn't come up once. I'm aware of jailbroken phones (and understand the number of jailbroken phones is somewhere between 10 and 30%) so I guess this is where the pirates come in... but don't know how you'd arrive at a figure of 9:1 (unless the relatively small number of jailbreakers download every single app in the world on principle, perhaps). Anyone have a reliable source for that 9:1 figure?

What is the great unknown with piracy is how many people who have a pirated version of a product WOULD have otherwise paid for it. My guess is this figure is low - as zircon suggests, some people get pirated anything almost on principle. Sadly I do know people who use a lot of pirated software... it's always awkward because in the majority of cases I do consider it theft, but socially its not too easy to accuse a friend of theft. The justification is usually "I wouldn't pay X$ for the software, so I'm not stealing anything". There is truth in this, but I sense that once piracy is deemed to be acceptable to a person, they tend to just do it. 

I also think that pricing IS an influence though. If there's software you want and it costs five bucks, it's not much of a deal to buy it. If it costs $5k then that is obviously a big deal and its far more tempting to get a free pirated version. This doesn't mean that all VI software should be dirt cheap, but just pointing out the inevitable fact that the higher the price, the more attractive a pirated version is.

Another element that might tempt people to piracy if it is actually MORE useful than a legit version. Many, many years ago (about 20?!) I had a legit copy of Cubase for the Atari ST. However, I ended up exclusively using a cracked version because it was more reliable! The dongled version kept crashing, while the hacked version was stable....

Similarly, if a cracked version of iLok software was available, then that's a tempting thing... I could install that on the laptop and use it without the stress of swapping / losing my one iLok, for example. Ethically I'd be able to justify it - I'd bought legit versions that I COULD use on 2 machines by swapping the dongle, this just adds convenience and security. So I think that being restrictive with T&Cs can actually have a negative impact too.

These issues aside, the vast majority of cases come down to people thinking it's ethically OK to use pirated stuff - people who I'm pretty sure would never knowingly deal with stolen goods, for example. It's sad, but true. Fear is a useful weapon here... a big plus to staying non jailbroken on the iphone, for example, is the feeling that you're unlikely to be affected by a virus - something which is not true in the case of a jailbroken phone.


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## Andrew Aversa (Feb 13, 2010)

The piracy rate on the iPhone is anecdotal; it has to be reported by individual developers.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp& ... 278f68e4a4

Just browse around here and you'll see what I mean, though. Again I've been in the game industry for a bit and so I read up on this stuff constantly. Piracy is a big issue for iPhone apps.

I won't deny that the price does have SOME impact on whether one would buy a product, but it is not an enormous factor, IMO. I'm guessing that Adobe Photoshop has piracy rates well about 90%, for example, because CS4 is so expensive. But even if it were only $100, I think that most of those people would STILL not buy it, because they're only using it for fun, not professionally. My own experience is that trend *tends* to hold true for music software piracy, too.


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## Hollow Sun (Feb 13, 2010)

zircon_st @ Sat Feb 13 said:


> They will even "pirate" free stuff..


Tell me about it!!!

I am often being alerted by loyal customers and friends to bastards that are selling the freebies available on my site on FleaBay and elsewhere and passing it off as their own work. And when I offered a lot more stuff for free (for the Akai S5/6000 community some years back), people were flogging it on FleaBay, giving it away as Soundfonts on dodgy sites. There really isn't anything these morons won't descend to.

And when a friend of mine made available some fantastic PolyMoog samples - for free - to the (proprietary) sampler community of his choice, some twat reverse engineered it to make it available to any- and everyone much against the wishes of my friend who wanted to keep it exclusive for his sampler's community. 

Now, some may argue about my mate's motive's but the fact is that that was HIS choice, his decision - he did the work to altruistically serve his sampler's community and even though my mate wasn't going to earn a penny from it, said twat thought (and proudly proclaimed) that he was 'sticking it to the man', that my friend had no right to reserve that sound just for his choice of sampler because said twat thinks that everything should be free to all, that 'property is theft', etc..

Of course, some may think that it's churlish to complain about one's freebies being taken and converted and given away as freebies. But A) that is against the wishes of the original copyright holder of that freebie and B) if the conversion is less than good, it potentially stands to damage the reputation of the original copyright holder ... EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE FREEBIES.

For example, I've come across soundfonts of my stuff and the poster would proudly proclaim...

"_These are conversions I've done of the Hollow Sun freebies to Soundfont so that the SF community can enjoy them_"

Which, in a way, I can't really complain about - I put them in the public domain after all, I guess. Except...

I didn't want them made available in Soundfont and, more importantly, the conversions were bloody horrible, done by some inept 14-year-old using his mum's computer and sounded dreadful and NOT representative of the quality of my work based on 25 years of experience of professional sampling for the majors. It (potentially) damages my professional reputation and standing.

There's a dark and murky world out there in internet piracy land - it's like walking down the darkest alleys of a strange city and much like lowlives there wouldn't think twice about mugging (or killing) you for the £10 in your wallet ... or chop your finger off to get your wedding ring ... they won't think twice about ripping your copyright off even if the only reward is a bit of 'internet love' or 'rIsPeKt innit' for 'sticking it to the man'....

Because all of us sound designers and library developers are parking our Ferraris outside our Caribbean holiday homes! :roll: 

I wish! :? 

That's part of the problem...

If a developer has earned some recognition and/or or enjoys a reputation or profile in this industry, it is automatically assumed by these f*ckwits that we're the size of Microsoft or Adobe, whoever, and so are fair game for a ripoff. They don't realise that most developers are small businesses and every lost sale to piracy potentially affects their ability to put meals on the table, pay bills/rent/mortgage, pay staff, provide customer support and - more importantly perhaps - develop new products for them, etc..

The saddest thing is ... they don't actually care - as long as THEY get what they want for free in this new age of 'entitlement'! :roll: 

It's called 'biting the hand that feeds you' in other circles! :? 

Cheers


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## noiseboyuk (Feb 13, 2010)

Thanks Ziron - interesting reading some of those links. This one here - http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2010/ ... eality.ars - questions the methodology used to calculate the high figures. In the main 24/7 report, they suggest a figure of 3:1 pirates to paid, but this seems to be based - funnily enough - on the most expensive and desirable apps like Tom Tom. I see some devs are claiming rates of 95%, but not too sure this is accurate or representative based on a casual overview.

According to this report - http://justanotheriphoneblog.com/wordpr ... -almost-10 - in November, only 10% of iphones were jailbroken - that's a ratio of 9:1 who even have the potential for piracy. Even if every single one of these users are illegally downloading like mad, I still find it hard to believe that its having a catastrophic impact on iphone devs.

Interesting though, because all this is on a very closed platform. PC software, by comparison, is wide open - anyone can download illegally with a will. I suspect VI devs are hit much harder than iPhone ones.


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## The_Dark_Knight (Feb 13, 2010)

Zircon you and I seem to be approximately on the same page. So I won't delve much deeper for fear of further misunderstanding. I'm just saying "exact" pricing doesn't seem to apply in software and pricing tiers should be considered.

Level 1 : crack price (25.00) - You're about to hit p2p.
Level 2 : hobby / donate (35.00) - none of you money comes from music
Level 3 : somewhat commercial (50.00) - at least 50 percent of your money comes from music, you're a member of a PRO, you plan to get more work in the field
Level 4: commercial elite (75.00) - you eat dinner with hans zimmer on occasion
Level 5 : Angel, get special attention and privileges (100.00) mentioning on our website as a top customer, bonus packages, 1 on 1 instruction, free banner adds on our forum, custom tutorials, your own personalized skin .


I'm not sure why the motives of pirates keeps coming up, I think most here have already stated that it's a given their dark art / hobby will continue no matter the product or climate.


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## The_Dark_Knight (Feb 13, 2010)

As an auxiliary model you have the subscription concept.

300.00 a year gets access to our site, use of all plugs, plug updates, videos, support forum, support tickets....as a bonus companies like Alexander publishing, MacProVideo, soundsononline, NI and the others could come together and make a sort of high-end professional development center web portal. 900.00 gets access to all of these guys content. Something like that.

You could use the plugs commercially but once the subscription runs out you can't keep making new pieces with them.


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## nikolas (Feb 13, 2010)

There used to be a sort of mentality on older pirated versions (H2O) where the whole idea was to "try b4 buy", or "don't make money with cracked software", which seems to have dissappeared now.

Ultimately piracy goes down to ignorance and greed. Why pay for something you can have for free? Why pay for something you have no idea you can actually buy?

It's a very complicated discussion to weight down the 'benefits' of piracy (advertising mainly) and the 'against' (lost sales mainly)...

Although I won't deny the harm of piracy, I think it's an opportunity to delve into new marketing strategies, as well as a whole new way of thinking. Good or bad, I've no idea honestly and that's why I stay right in the middle and try not to position myself (without disrespect or insult to anyone of course).


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## lux (Feb 14, 2010)

one definition: marketing for loyal customers. Thats the word. If you find and invent dozens reasons to make people become loyal customers of your products youre half way imo.

BUT..that means having a nice commercial attitude. 

Selling stuff is not for everyone, being a professional of sales means having a customer targeted mentality. Most developers are just ex musicians or technicians and that shows when it comes to customer care and relationships. Add this to a very overwhelming offer of products and you'll know why so many guys complain about the lack of sales.

Edit: btw, i dont want to appear as patronizing or teachin anyone with that, i just make this exact thought applied to myself every day.


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## snowleopard (Feb 14, 2010)

Does anyone know if any of the major developers have tried flooding the pirate or P2P markets with flawed, or even virus (worm, trojan horse) laden hacks of their own? (That would be a non-working version of the program, that is disguised to appear to be a perfectly fine working copy). 

For example, the film and TV industry has in the past has (very likely) flooded the torrent markets with poor quality, or flawed versions of their own shows. Thus, when the average person out there looking to get a freebie does a search, it's most likely they are going to come across a crap version before a quality one, or one that takes forever to download, etc. 

Granted, even someone as big as NI is a tiny spec compared to CBS or Paramount, but it's a twist to the discussion.


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## noiseboyuk (Feb 14, 2010)

Snowleapord - I'm sure I've read a dev or two here insinuate that yes they do do this. I'm all for it! I guess there's a debate about how much harm to cause - it would be pretty bold to go as far as, say, formatting the c drive, but in a sense why not?

I remember many years ago I worked for an Internet retailer for a short while. They were only a small company, but it was one person's full time job to handle fraud. I think there's a good case for the larger companies employing full time experts to flood the market with crippled versions of thier own stuff.


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## Ben H (Feb 14, 2010)

EDIT


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## Peter Alexander (Feb 14, 2010)

Hollow Sun @ Sat Feb 13 said:


> Which, in a way, I can't really complain about - I put them in the public domain after all, I guess. Except...



Except that you're wrong and with all due respect, you need to take some intellectual property rights classes to learn your rights and how to protect yourself.

Because an item is "free" as a promotion or in a promotion or for whatever purpose DOES NOT put it in the public domain. You are the copyright holder and all the rights to that product belong to you. 

End of story.

No theory.

No discussion.

No speculation.

Fact. You own the copyrights. If someone has taken a work you did and converted it into something different which they then attempt to either give away or sell, that's copyright infringement and you need to send a Cease and Desist letter.

You can also protect yourself by creating a licensing agreement with terms which they have to agree to before downloading commences.

Putting your passion to the side for a moment, you are a software programmer and there is plenty of case law out there to support you. But you have to be willing to look at the copyright laws in your country, and then put in the effort to protect yourself.


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## nikolas (Feb 14, 2010)

Peter,

In theory you are right! But it actually applies in every practical sense that if you do put it for free on the net, everyone assumes they can redidstribute and thus copyrights go buy buy! (typo intended).

I've had such an issue with IMSLP, which attributes a CC license to all works. All CC licenses include a clause which states that redistribution is allowed! something I hadn't noticed. So at some point I saw my works (scores) in a database, needing monetary contribution (subscription) in order to download. got furious, knew I would have a hard time proving my rights, but fortunately the site was not in Russia but in the US, so my works got pulled down.


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## chimuelo (Feb 14, 2010)

Why did Lisa Presley really get divorced from Micheal Jackson....................?

#$^


There was a big misunderstanding when he said he wanted kids.......Ankyu.


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## Peter Alexander (Feb 14, 2010)

nikolas @ Sun Feb 14 said:


> Peter,
> 
> In theory you are right! But it actually applies in every practical sense that if you do put it for free on the net, everyone assumes they can redidstribute and thus copyrights go buy buy! (typo intended).
> 
> I've had such an issue with IMSLP, which attributes a CC license to all works. All CC licenses include a clause which states that redistribution is allowed! something I hadn't noticed. So at some point I saw my works (scores) in a database, needing monetary contribution (subscription) in order to download. got furious, knew I would have a hard time proving my rights, but fortunately the site was not in Russia but in the US, so my works got pulled down.



Copyright ownership is not theory. You just demonstrated it. You took action for yourself. But the next person to contact separate from IMSLP.org is the individual who posted your work(s) as that individual(s) was the originator of the copyright infringement of your works.


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## nikolas (Feb 14, 2010)

Can I make sure that every copy of PDF scores are out there are not randomnly being distributed amongst people? What percentage of those will actually THINK and say "Go to nikolas's site to get the scores", instead of offering them? It's something I've changed over the years, despite my very strong sentimens FOR free education. It's impossible to battle that, especially when you're offering something for free. It's hard enough to persuade anyone (I have a few I think) that piracy is wrong, but when there is actually no loss of revenue...? Ouch!


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## Peter Alexander (Feb 14, 2010)

nikolas @ Sun Feb 14 said:


> Can I make sure that every copy of PDF scores are out there are not randomnly being distributed amongst people? What percentage of those will actually THINK and say "Go to nikolas's site to get the scores", instead of offering them? It's something I've changed over the years, despite my very strong sentimens FOR free education. It's impossible to battle that, especially when you're offering something for free. It's hard enough to persuade anyone (I have a few I think) that piracy is wrong, but when there is actually no loss of revenue...? Ouch!



You are a working composer. Not ALL working composers write cues. Many working composers earning six figures write concert band music, jazz arrangements, et al, and sell direct. To reduce expenses, PDF parts are put on a CD while the score is shipped as an assembled full score.

Every composer (as in every) selling to both schools and (sad to say) churches, deals with the pirating of their parts and scores. To compensate, anticipating piracy, independent composers who run their own companies charge higher prices per score and parts. 

That's the best you can do along with locking the parts within the PDFs, watermarking, etc. 

Here's a story from today's New York Times you might want to read.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/14/busin ... bt.html?hp


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## nikolas (Feb 14, 2010)

A couple of questions/remarks.

1. I don't find the churche piracy worst than the school one, or anyone as a matter of fact. It actually shows the universality of the issue, despite date, place, religious beliefs and whatnot.

2. I find the NY times article a fine read (already read it), but I'm also a bit puzzled as to what it's got to do with most of what it's been discussed here... ???


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## Dynamitec (Feb 15, 2010)

I don't think that someone who is using cracks will buy the software even if it only costs 10$ - as long as is it available for "free". People get caught shoplifting and all they have stolen is a pack of cigarettes. With your logic they would only steal from jewelers. And that's simply not the case. Other than that: selling software/libraries for prices that cheap will hurt the quality and the market in the long run.


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## EnTaroAdun (Feb 15, 2010)

I'm not sure about that.
There already _are_ companies, who offer student-discounts and "hobby-licenses". As long as they're upgradable into full licenses, this is a very appealing concept for many people (like me).
I'd like to play with the big tools too, but spending like $1000 on a string-library or $1500 on a reverb bundle is just impossible for me (even though I think the price is totally justified). And I am willing to spend money on my hobby ... it's just that I simply can't spend so much money on it.


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## Dynamitec (Feb 15, 2010)

Nothing is wrong with student and I support this idea and made use of it when I was a student, too.

But still: in my opinion *most* people won't buy a software even at student prices - not even for $10 - as long as it's available cracked. The same guys who download movies instead of going to the cinema for example.

*Edit*

There is another point why it's important that not everyone can afford every plugin or library: think of a Ferrari priced in the Fiat price range. Who would ever buy the Fiat in that case? You have to pay for first class products. Making everything cheap and affordable to fight against piracy isn't the right solution in my opinion. 
Another example: if the full Cubase Eduction version would cost only $60, how many people do you think will use Reaper? (And I don't want to say that Reaper is bad, because it's not). That's what I meant with hurting the market. People won't look for cheaper alternatives, if the big companies make their top products available for very little money.

Btw. Reaper costs $225 (commercial) and $60 (discount), yet it's available as a cracked version. How cheap should the discount license be so that people wouldn't crack it? $10? $5? 0.02$?


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## Ben H (Feb 15, 2010)

EDIT


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## Hollow Sun (Feb 15, 2010)

Dynamitec @ Mon Feb 15 said:


> I don't think that someone who is using cracks will buy the software even if it only costs 10$ - as long as is it available for "free".


Sadly, true.

'Grease' is no longer the word (to paraphrase the musical of that name!) ... FREE is. It appears in the most FAQs on many a music making forum ... "_Where can I get FREE orchestral samples?_" ... "_Where can I get something like EWQL for FREE?_" ... "_I need a really good Steinway piano - must have velocity layers - must be FREE_" ... and so on! :? 

In my dealing with piracy, I have come to know some of them. The justifications they have given me for their actions beggars belief....

"_I wouldn't have bought it anyway"_ (The old stalwart! So why are you using it you thieving dipshit?!!)

"_If I have to pay for sound library, I can't afford to go out with my mates_" (Eh?)

"_It's not really stealing though is it - I haven't deprived you of anything_" (No ... just legitimate income! :roll: )

"_I paid enough for the sampler - I shouldn't have to pay for sounds as well_" (errmm ... try that one on with, say, Ford, when enquiring about sources for free fuel ... or Gibson when seeking out free strings!)

Or conversely....

"_I didn't pay for the sampler - why should I pay for sounds?_"

On the subject of converting commercial library to free Soundfonts...

"_I did all the work converting it - I can do what I want with it_" (Ermmm ... no you can't actually - read the EULA!)

This last one is quite crucial actually - peoples' lack of understanding of copyright is such that if they do something with some library (which they may have legitimately bought) or convert it to some other format, whatever, they believe that it is perfectly acceptable to 'share' (as encouraged by internet paradigms of egalitarian 'sharing' ... 'Click here to share this' options in - legit - video sites, blogs, forums, etc.). A lot of 'piracy' is down to naive, well-meaning ignorance. But in fairness to many of these people, if you explain it to them, they are often mortified and very apologetic.

But there's the darker side as well ... the magpies that will just take anything as long as it's free ... even if it's a $10 thing. And that's exactly what they are - magpies ... getting any- and everything they can for free. They spend their entire evenings and into the wee hours trawling round the net filling their drives up with stuff they'll never have time to use - but they have it and they 'stuck it to the man' and got it for free!

And for developers, it could be argued that many of these aren't worth worrying about and in some ways, f'ck 'em - they're not your customers anyway so bollocks to them.

I know such a person well ... a friend of mine ... I use him to trawl around on my behalf looking for contraventions of my stuff (I wouldn't know where to start) ... I use him like many developers and manufacturers have entire departments devoted to this. I am fortunate - myò“Þ   Å±“Þ   Å²“Þ   Å³“Þ   Å´“Þ   Åµ“Þ   Å¶“Þ   Å·“Þ   Å¸“Þ   Å¹“Þ   Åº“Þ   Å»“Þ   Å¼“Þ   Å½“Þ   Å¾“Þ   Å¿“Þ   ÅÀ“Þ   ÅÁ“Þ   ÅÂ“Þ   ÅÃ“Þ   ÅÄ“Þ   ÅÅ“Þ   ÅÆ“Þ   ÅÇ“Þ   ÅÈ“Þ   ÅÉ“Þ   ÅÊ“Þ   ÅË“Þ   ÅÌ“Þ   ÅÍ“Þ   ÅÎ“Þ   ÅÏ“Þ   ÅÐ“Þ   ÅÑ“Þ   ÅÒ“Þ   ÅÓ“Þ   ÅÔ“Þ   ÅÕ“Þ   ÅÖ“Þ   Å×“Þ   ÅØ“Þ   ÅÙ“Þ   ÅÚ“Þ   ÅÛ“Þ   ÅÜ“Þ   ÅÝ“Þ   ÅÞ“Þ   Åß“Þ   Åà“Þ   Åá“Þ   Åâ“Þ   Åã“Þ   Åä“Þ   Åå“Þ   Åæ“Þ   Åç“Þ   Åè“Þ   Åé“Þ   Åê“Þ   Åë“Þ   Åì“Þ   Åí“Þ   Åî“Þ   Åï“Þ   Åð“Þ   Åñ“Þ   Åò“Þ   Åó“ß   Åô“ß   Åõ“ß   Åö“ß   Å÷“ß   Åø“ß   Åù“ß   Åú“ß   Åû“ß   Åü“ß   Åý“ß   Åþ“ß   Åÿ“ß   Å	 “ß   Å	“ß   Å	“ß   Å	“ß   Å	“ß   Å	“ß   Å	“ß   Å	“ß   Å	“ß   Å “ß   Å	
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## midphase (Feb 15, 2010)

Here's my understanding of how watermarking works: Joe the composer buys a sample library and he's issues a watermark that's specific to him. A few weeks later the sample library makes its way to the torrents, so the developer downloads his library from there and runs the watermark checker on it. The watermark comes back with Joe's number...ooh oh! Joe's in trouble!

What happens next is everyone's guess since AFAIK, a developer has never pursued legal action against a user in this particular scenario. 

When record labels started suing individuals for sharing music, some people got scared into not doing it anymore (mostly the parents of said people), but I don't know how much that really helped vs. demonizing the record labels even more.


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## madbulk (Feb 15, 2010)

You guys think pro golfers buy their own clubs?


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## Revson (Feb 15, 2010)

mikebarry @ Mon Feb 15 said:


> I also think Russia needs to get its act together and stop producing superstar hockey players and instead produce some type of legislation.
> .



...and develop the moral infrastructure to support capitalism. Legalizing property after 80 years of "property is theft" has left many former Soviets a bit confused.


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## The_Dark_Knight (Feb 15, 2010)

Ben H @ Mon Feb 15 said:


> *The_Dark_Knight*
> 
> How is _that_ going to work?
> And What differentiates a hobbyist from a PRO?
> ...



Oh yes, this is one of many missing ingredients. This is like having more locks on your door to improve security, but the locks are more subversive. They won't work is someone still really wants to get in but they are more impressive than just a door without only a sign that says keep out. 

The things I'm saying are already happening however in a less developed way. I predicted plug-in renting 10 years ago, they said never gonna happen. I predicted software prices would come way down they said that wouldn't happen, but then came mass theory I suppose and now their stuff has even more RnD as well size. 

Logistics are a problem whether your price is fixed or not. I would indeed say that developer need to spend more critical observation on this topic and less adding features. There are already too many features and not enough developers who can maintain the long run. You ascertain ones level based on a criteria such as those with PRO affiliation vs those without out. If you do occasional gigs you fall into a mid category as mentioned several posts back.

Eastwest/Soundonline for example has their complete collections, and NI has Kore, IK also has their full suites....and the point of mentioning this is these guys with concepts like this are heading towards the subscription model concept, where a flat fee gets access to everything. I mentioned this as an alternative to the tier model or a means to hedge.

But while I'm digging myself out of this one I'll throw out some more....Korg!! Imagine if Triton came with a $500 download voucher for Eastwest, BigFish, Alexander Publishing, Cinesamples, Impact sounds, Chris Hein etc....This could be another way to think about copy protection with Hardware, like apple has done with mac hardware. In other words, these guys go to korg (or any number of synth makers) and cut a deal. This is an OEM concept which has nothing to do with a tier concept.

The point is giving the developers and creators many more options to make and save money. You give the thieves less reason to steal but no you don't entirely phase out anarchists. Because the reality is that there are not as many full-time pros nowadays because everything is so fragmented. So many "pros" understand they will never be full time. In this way, developers uncover more of their true audience. All these points aim to make distribution channels of theft smaller by proliferating through backdoor channels and swarming legal copy options into the spotlight.


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## The_Dark_Knight (Feb 15, 2010)

madbulk @ Mon Feb 15 said:


> You guys think pro golfers buy their own clubs?



This is funny and an excellent point. Nothings ever as it seems when it comes to product/service valuation.


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## The_Dark_Knight (Feb 15, 2010)

Dynamitec @ Mon Feb 15 said:


> I don't think that someone who is using cracks will buy the software even if it only costs 10$ - as long as is it available for "free". People get caught shoplifting and all they have stolen is a pack of cigarettes. With your logic they would only steal from jewelers. And that's simply not the case. Other than that: selling software/libraries for prices that cheap will hurt the quality and the market in the long run.



Really? You don't think someone would spend ten bucks to prevent themselves having to find a working crack, one that doesn't have a virus, one with the latest patches, and one which is EASY to download or get dò”   ÅY”   ÅZ”   Å[”   Å\”   Å]”   Å^”   Å_”   Å`”   Åa”   Åb”   Åc”   Åd”   Åe”   Åf”   Åg”   Åh”   Åi”   Åj”   Åk”   Ål”   Åm”   Ån”   Åo”   Åp”   Åq”   År”   Ås”   Åt”   Åu”   Åv”   Åw”   Åx”   Åy”   Åz”   Å{”   Å|”   Å}”   Å~”   Å”   Å€”   Å”   Å‚”   Åƒ”   Å„”   Å…”   Å†”   Å‡”   Åˆ”   Å‰”   ÅŠ”   Å‹”   ÅŒ


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## Thonex (Feb 15, 2010)

The_Dark_Knight @ Mon Feb 15 said:


> Really? You don't think someone would spend ten bucks to prevent themselves having to find a working crack, one that doesn't have a virus, one with the latest patches, and one which is EASY to download or get delivered (assuming the sizes are several gigs), and could potentially provide a support forum, with no fear of ISP lawsuits, no fear of getting "caught", no developer lawsuits?



no... not when crackers are bundling ALL the $10 downloads as a single "convenient" download... or worse... selling it (and the Freebies) for a profit on Ebay or on their own site.

But yes, thankfully, a lot of those downloads are riddled with viruses and hobbled segments that never extract perfectly... so people who want a 100% working and supported version will hopefully buy the real thing. 

Did I just contradict myself? ~o)


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## Martin Hines (Feb 15, 2010)

Ben H @ Mon Feb 15 said:


> Ok, well I DO understand that people will use ANY means necessary to justify their actions... but one common argument is that they never would have bought it anyway, or "it's only a hobby" and that somehow makes it okay.



People will always attempt to moralize their actions in certain situations.


Here are some non-music examples. These may pale in comparison to using pirated software, but they illustrate "morality" is a relative term.


1. Receive Extra Change at the Store

Imagine you were checking out at the grocery store, paid with paper money, then realized the checker gave you too much change.

Do you ALWAYS correct the error?
-- What if it was only a few dollars?
-- What if it was a big chain store you didn't like very much?


2. Credit Card Never Charged

Imagine you purchased some item either on-line or at a retail store with a credit card. Suppose your next few statements come and that charge never appears.

Do you always contact the merchant and correct the problem?


3. Used Magazine at the Airport

Suppose you were sitting in an airport gate waiting for your flight to board. Someone sits near you with either a newspaper or gossip magazine. They leave after a while, purposely leaving their newspaper/magazine behind.

Do you feel it is acceptable to pick up the newspaper/magazine and read it even though you didn't buy it?

Would it be more justified if it was a magazine you never would have purchased in the first place?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 15, 2010)

1&2 are dishonest. 3 is not only perfectly legal and moral, it's to the magazine's advantage since you're viewing the ads in it.


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## Thonex (Feb 15, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Feb 15 said:


> 1&2 are dishonest. 3 is not only perfectly legal and moral, it's to the magazine's advantage since you're viewing the ads in it.



Not quite true. What if in scenario #3, it was a porn magazine and the person picking it up was an 8 year old? We could be talking about reckless indecent exposure >8o


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Feb 15, 2010)

> Do you feel it is acceptable to pick up the newspaper/magazine and read it even though you didn't buy it?
> 
> Would it be more justified if it was a magazine you never would have purchased in the first place?



You don't need a license to legally read that magazine, so this example doesn't really compare. Unless said person copied the magazine in some sort of digital form.

We'll probably have this problem when the iBook platform takes off.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 15, 2010)

Good point, Andrew, I hadn't thought of that. From now on I'll stop abandoning my used porn magazines in public places.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 15, 2010)

Nathan, they're going to use the same limited-copy protection they used on iTunes.

http://sanjose.bizjournals.com/sanjose/ ... ?ana=yfcpc


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## Hollow Sun (Feb 15, 2010)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Mon Feb 15 said:


> We'll probably have this problem when the iBook platform takes off.


Oh! Believe me - with the advent of eBooks and the like, the literary world is headed the same way as the music world where, like music and sounds/samples, books will have no value either and they will be expected for free ... and within days of a blockbuster book being released, there'll be a crack available for free download.

And give it time and the Sunday papers wil have back catalogues of literary works given away for free on cover CDs to re-enforce the notion that books are free.

And much like we have seen in the music world, high street book shops will be forced into closure only to be replaced with yet another coffee house or burger joint or pizza franchise....

And there's the irony - people seem quite happily prepared to pay £3.00 for a Starbucks crappucino latté which they'll piss down the toilet a few hours later but the same people will complain about paying 79p for something on iTunes which they can play and bring them enjoyment in perpetuity. :? 

And perhaps the ultimate contradiction/irony is that people are happy to pay £3.00 or more for a cup of coffee that maybe cost 5p to make but will whine and moan about paying for music/library that cost £thousands to create!

It's a funny old world! :?


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## Thonex (Feb 15, 2010)

Hollow Sun,

Awesome summation!

Cheers,

Andrew K


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## The_Dark_Knight (Feb 16, 2010)

The book industry has already been devastated by pdfs. But outsourcing has dealt a blow to workers here in the US for an extended period as well, not just H-1B visa's but abuse of them. As well as one-stop shops and consolidation of the labor pool thorough technology. My other job is in technical document publishing for what it's worth. I work on _Energy_ related publications. Can't say much about it, except they were also hit hard from the economic collapse, and haven't recovered yet.

What I can't understand about the transition from industrial/information into a service economy is, what does it produce in tangible value, and what do the people who are being serviced do besides other service jobs.


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## Martin Hines (Feb 16, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Feb 16 said:


> 1&2 are dishonest. 3 is not only perfectly legal and moral, it's to the magazine's advantage since you're viewing the ads in it.



It's not to the magazine's advantage at all if you did not buy the newspaper/magazine to begin with (unless there is some type of mail-in coupon for which the magazine gets credit).

By not purchasing your own copy, you have denied the retailer and publisher additional income, even though you have enjoyed the product.

Reading someone else's newpaper/magazine may be legal, but the "lost revenue" idea is identical to the software world.



Nathan Allen Pinard @ Tue Feb 16 said:


> You don't need a license to legally read that magazine, so this example doesn't really compare. Unless said person copied the magazine in some sort of digital form.


From a legal standpoint the example does not compare, but I do think there is a moral similarity to the people sharing software.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 16, 2010)

Sorry, Martin, that's simply not the business model for magazines. I agree with the spirit of what you're saying 100% as it applies to software, but as a magazine publisher I can tell you with firsthand authority that distribution exists solely to provide an audience for advertisers. It barely breaks even, and ad salespeople always promote passed-on readership as a sales argument. I forget the term they use, but it's very much part of the plan.

A lot of magazines even give their copies away free or for next to nothing. When it's free it's called controlled circulation, and it's one of the business models.

Even specialty magazines with no ads are usually intended for the coffee table.

Illegal copies of PDFs are another matter. In that case of course you're right.


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## madbulk (Feb 16, 2010)

1. I reflexively correct this one... don't have time to consider the morality/payout ratio? 
2. Who would ever notice the omission of a charge on a credit card statement?
3. I'll defer to Nick as to what is and isn't acceptable to the publisher.

Where do you guys stand on mislabeled cuts of beef? I got some strip the other day marked as round.


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## kitekrazy (Feb 23, 2010)

Martin Hines @ Sun Feb 14 said:


> For example, none of the EastWest PLAY titles have been cracked. If you search Google and see links to warez sites claiming to have these, these are bogus/malicious downloads.



Those were cracked within 2 weeks when they went to the Play engine. You're not looking in the right (oxymoron?) places.

Probably their greatest anti piracy protection is the size of their instruments. A 30gb torrent would take weeks to download. Those who would endure such a thing probably don't even spend a $1 on an MP3.


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## kitekrazy (Feb 23, 2010)

Dynamitec @ Mon Feb 15 said:


> Another thing I want to add (and to get on topic again): I can understand why NI doesn't offer the Player for less money. If any developer could bundle their libraries with Kontakt Player, there wouldn't be very much Kontakt libraries which require the full Kontakt anymore.



At this point I don't think they care. It seems they are more into marketing Kore soundpacks. The Kore player is free and now the Kontakt player is free.

The sampler is dead market. Everything is a rompler. A sampler only appeals to developers and those who like to make their own instruments.


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## noiseboyuk (Feb 23, 2010)

I'm very surprised if that Play thing is true - I must be honest, I'm not sure it is (but I've been wrong many times before of course). And I think rumours of the sampler's death are greatly exaggerated... Kontakt Player only gives you a very limited subset of available libs in VI Control world (for example, no Cinesamples stuff). In the non-scoring realm, I think the vast majority of Kontakt software isn't official library either. So there's still a very strong reason to buy full Kontakt even if you're not into sampling or even tweaking.


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## handz (Feb 23, 2010)

You guys are serious grafomans! :shock:


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Feb 23, 2010)

I don't know of anyone that uses pirated software in the professional world honestly. It's a gigantic risk.

The only reason I'd see someone doing that is to avoid copy protection schemes that causes problems with their system. i.e. iLok


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## Martin Hines (Feb 23, 2010)

kitekrazy @ Tue Feb 23 said:


> Those were cracked within 2 weeks when they went to the Play engine. You're not looking in the right (oxymoron?) places.


This is incorrect. None of the PLAY titles have been cracked. There might be items _claiming _to be cracks, but it just hasn't happened. Just because a person can google a specific PLAY title and find a hit does not mean those are real.

Many people assume that "everything gets cracked", which some then use as justification for demanding developers use no or minimal copy protection.

Also, other big vendor that has never been cracked is VSL, specifically Vienna Instruments.



kitekrazy @ Tue Feb 23 said:


> Probably their greatest anti piracy protection is the size of their instruments. A 30gb torrent would take weeks to download.


With many people having high-speed internet connections, a person could download 30GB of content in 12 hours.

EastWest's best protection is the PACE iLok system and their own added custom protections.


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## kitekrazy (Feb 24, 2010)

Martin Hines @ Tue Feb 23 said:


> kitekrazy @ Tue Feb 23 said:
> 
> 
> > Those were cracked within 2 weeks when they went to the Play engine. You're not looking in the right (oxymoron?) places.
> ...


 
EWSO Silver was cracked within two weeks. I seen it on a binary group a long time ago. 

Internet connection is the least involved in downloading a torrent. You would have to have a lot of people seeding that torrent for anyone to download it in 12 hours.

All of that stuff is cracked. All it involves is working around iLok.


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## Martin Hines (Feb 24, 2010)

kitekrazy @ Wed Feb 24 said:


> EWSO Silver was cracked within two weeks. I seen it on a binary group a long time ago.


Not the PLAY version. If you saw it on some torrent site, it was either a fake or uncracked. There is not necessarily a lot of honesty on warez sites (surprise).



kitekrazy @ Wed Feb 24 said:


> Internet connection is the least involved in downloading a torrent. You would have to have a lot of people seeding that torrent for anyone to download it in 12 hours.


Yes. It is not uncommon to have hundreds of people involved sharing a single torrent.



kitekrazy @ Wed Feb 24 said:


> All of that stuff is cracked. All it involves is working around iLok.


There have been some iLok titles that have been cracked, but these are generally ones that use generic iLok protection. Companies can also add their own protection.

My point in all of this is to let people know that there are some companies (e.g. EastWest and VSL) who have managed to keep the products they have released in the last 2-3 years totally protected. These companies have not lost any money in sales due to piracy. 

Stopping piracy was one of the reasons EastWest gave a few years ago for creating their own playback engine (the other being control over the engine). I am sure developing PLAY and its protection cost them a boatload of money, but I suspect EastWest is very happy now about stopping piracy of their products.


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## snowleopard (Feb 24, 2010)

It's my understanding that the Play libs that have been cracked were not cracked to a pirated Play player _per se_, but ported. Someone took the time to extract every last sound and nuance and turn it into a different library (Kontakt?), down to as much detail as possible. I don't know this for sure though. Maybe someone did crack the Play dongle. Would suck, but wouldn't be the first dongle cracked I guess. 



> Probably their greatest anti piracy protection is the size of their instruments. A 30gb torrent would take weeks to download. Those who would endure such a thing probably don't even spend a $1 on an MP3.



I think this is a good point and one I made before regarding Morphestra. The simple fact that the library is 27gb and comes on a hard drive is a fairly big deterrent. Not that people wont steal it - people will steal anything. But those most likely to rip this off and are willing to spend hours downloading and decompressing such a thing, then dealing with cracking serials plus registration issues, aren't likely to pay in the first place, no matter what. It could be $59 and they still wouldn't pay.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 25, 2010)

So far that hasn't happened, kitekrazy. Nobody has their own dongle, unless you consider things like the Pro Tools M-Box hardware or the UAD and SSL cards to be dongles.


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## snowleopard (Feb 26, 2010)

I remember going from Logic 7 to Logic 8 and being pleased the dongle was gone. I asked the Apple rep about Apple no longer using a dongle and he said "Sure they do, here's the dongle right here" and pointed at one of these: 







Interesting thought.


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## kitekrazy (Mar 2, 2010)

snowleopard @ Fri Feb 26 said:


> I remember going from Logic 7 to Logic 8 and being pleased the dongle was gone. I asked the Apple rep about Apple no longer using a dongle and he said "Sure they do, here's the dongle right here" and pointed at one of these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's the way Line 6 does it with their interfaces. Your Line 6 hardware is the dongle.


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## Mike Connelly (Mar 9, 2010)

Dynamitec @ Mon Feb 15 said:


> I don't think that someone who is using cracks will buy the software even if it only costs 10$ - as long as is it available for "free". People get caught shoplifting and all they have stolen is a pack of cigarettes. With your logic they would only steal from jewelers. And that's simply not the case. Other than that: selling software/libraries for prices that cheap will hurt the quality and the market in the long run.



Some people will always steal when they have the option.

Some people will never steal no matter what.

And then there's the group that will steal depending on how much the product costs and how easy it is to steal.

When iTunes first appeared and napster was in its heyday, people thought it was insane since so much music could be downloaded for free. And they just sold what, their hundred billionth song? When iTunes first appeared, there was DRM on all songs, then later on some, now it isn't on any, and they still seem to be selling plenty.

The key seems to be that middle group who has the potential to go either way. There isn't one "someone" out there, there are different kinds of people, and some will make the purchase depending on the circumstances. If it's not possible to completely stop piracy, seems like it makes sense to try and target them.



Hollow Sun @ Mon Feb 15 said:


> Oh! Believe me - with the advent of eBooks and the like, the literary world is headed the same way as the music world where, like music and sounds/samples, books will have no value either and they will be expected for free ... and within days of a blockbuster book being released, there'll be a crack available for free download.



We've been there for years - when the last few Harry Potter books were released, there were digital versions online before the book was even released. And those weren't even released in digital format, that came from people scanning the books in and converting to text files with OCR.



kitekrazy @ Thu Feb 25 said:


> The Play dongle is cracked because it's an iLok dongle.



You keep claiming this, but I'm not sure what that's based on. If it's just seeing a name in a list of pirated files, there's no way to know that it's not completely bogus.



snowleopard @ Fri Feb 26 said:


> I remember going from Logic 7 to Logic 8 and being pleased the dongle was gone. I asked the Apple rep about Apple no longer using a dongle and he said "Sure they do, here's the dongle right here" and pointed at one of these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Funny...except now with the move to intel, people are even running OSX on intel hardware.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 9, 2010)

My guess is that hackintoshes aren't really affecting anyone.


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## Mike Connelly (Mar 10, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Mar 09 said:


> My guess is that hackintoshes aren't really affecting anyone.



Probably not to a large degree. Which is an illustration of Apple's view on piracy - they seem to worry little about it, and figure that they can live with it as long as they continue to sell plenty of legit copies. And in their particular situation, that seems to be working well.


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## Terryg (Mar 14, 2010)

First of all, it really is a very big problem for us sample developers. 

A little perspective here, as I've been creating sample libraries probably longer than almost anyone else on here, none of this is really new --back in the 1980's at E-Mu, for the E2 and EIII, it was decided to give away sounds to sell units, and they had a lot of parties in New York or LA, or at an AES show where that was done--well at least for high end users. 

I know the other 'high end' guys had the same basic strategy - Synclavier, Wave Frame, etc--give away at least some of the software to sell the hardware.

Well, look at the cost of those-an EIII was 13,500 in 1989, and the others were much, much more. Even an S-1000 or Emax II, when those came a few years later, were around 4K.

At the same time, you had a limited market for sounds because you had to have expensive hardware + expensive storage media like Magneto Opticals Drive and stacks of carts, even CDRom wasn't cheap. So 3rd party libraries that I worked on back them were going for $800, while E-Mu would be basically giving my sounds away to sell units. 

And, at the music stores, each big store had a guy who literally spent his day copying floppies, for Akai, E-Mu, Ensoniq sounds and selling them on the side. I knew the 48th Street scene well. 

So that's the history. It's not too different from some of the early hardware / software mistakes made by the PC industry, and had NED, Waveframe (and us of course) , etc valued the software (sounds) more than they/we had proprietary hardware the whole history of this industry might be different. 

So, now the transmission media is different, but the problem remains the same. 
And, for us, at some point we may have to go to a player, although I hope not.

Terry G


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 14, 2010)

Mike, you have to remember that Apple's products gain value (in a Mephistophelean sense) because of piracy! They want just enough to make their Macs worth more but not enough to put their developers out of business so that their Macs are worth less.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 15, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ 14/3/2010 said:


> ... Apple's products gain value (in a *Mephistophelean* sense) because of piracy!



Holy vocabulary-builder, Batman - that's a great word!


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