# Superior Drummer 3 dissapointments



## jtnyc (Feb 15, 2018)

Was so looking forward to this. The new UI looks fantastic, but I have found quite a few frustrations and am wondering if I'm not alone.

1 - The new kits all seem to have been sampled with a limited velocity range. The highest velocities do not reach the maximum of what a hard hitting drummer would hit in a hard hitting track. This is beyond disappointing and an oversight that baffles me.

2 - The sheer number of room and surround mics seems like massive overkill. I have spent a lot of time checking them all out and it's a rabbit hole of redundancy and similarities to me. 230 gigs!

3 - No mixer presets. Argg!!! Yes you can import settings from another preset, but the bleed settings are not part of the mixer, so it's all pretty useless.

4 - I thought the new mixer with the new fx plugs would satisfy me to mix the drums within the plugin. I tried, but the eq's and compressors don't compete with the 3rd party plugs I have, especially the compressors. They just don't sound very good to me. If I do stick to using SD3, I will have to go back to a multi out setup.

I called up my Hit Factory and Allaire kits today and was happy to have a full range of dynamics. The bummer there is those kits were sampled with only 1 rack tom and 2 floor toms. Not a great setup for me. 2 racks and 1 floor would be way more flexible.

There are some nice sounds in the new kits. The Ayotte sounds real sweet and is great for soft to medium loud playing, as are the others, but it and all of the other SD3 kits are useless for hard hitting stuff. I am baffled that after all of the hoopla, the rooms, the surrounds, Massenburg, 6 new kits etc... they missed the top of the dynamic range of a rock kit...

Looking forward to hearing and getting a closer look at Steven Slate 5


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## JC_ (Feb 15, 2018)

Regarding #1, I'm not sure if this is the reason but I know some guys have talked about recording softer dynamics in order to get really huge sounding drums. So basically recording it a bit softer and doing crazy compression and stuff to get it where it needs to be (in order to really capture the character of the sound).


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## jtnyc (Feb 15, 2018)

JC_ said:


> Regarding #1, I'm not sure if this is the reason but I know some guys have talked about recording softer dynamics in order to get really huge sounding drums. So basically recording it a bit softer and doing crazy compression and stuff to get it where it needs to be (in order to really capture the character of the sound).



Hitting softer can create a larger more full tone of coarse. Hitting harder gives you a more cracking tone and a feeling of more intensity in the performance. I've been recording live drums and using sample libraries for years. Compression can do all sorts of things, but it's not gonna replace the crack of a hard hit drum. Softer hit equals more low end and less crack in the top end, which sounds great in the right context. Yes you can aggressively compress a softer hit and it will give it more attitude, but you are still compressing a softer hit that is deeper and less cracking. All of Toontracks previous releases offered a full range of hits. This is lacking in the new kits.


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## JC_ (Feb 15, 2018)

Fair point about intensity of performance - Was just trying to think of a reason why they wouldn't have captured that.


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## jtnyc (Feb 15, 2018)

JC_ said:


> Fair point about intensity of performance - Was just trying to think of a reason why they wouldn't have captured that.



Me too -) Ha


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## jtnyc (Feb 15, 2018)

hodshonf said:


>



I have all of the presets, downloaded everything.


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## jtnyc (Feb 15, 2018)

no, I never said I didn't have the presets. I said there are no mixer presets in SD3. In SD2 you could save and recall the state of the mixer. You can't in SD3


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## artomatic (Feb 16, 2018)

Totally agree with you on #1. I thought I was the only one disappointed with this oversight or omission.


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## almo (Feb 16, 2018)

hodshonf said:


> got the mixer preset thing understood - even modified, saved, and loaded user settings.
> 
> it's all there.
> 
> ...


No.. Not yet. Release is announced for march..


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## almo (Feb 16, 2018)

think it was this https://www.musicradar.com/news/tec...slate-to-release-mimic-pro-drum-module-639610


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## jononotbono (Feb 16, 2018)

jtnyc said:


> 2 - The sheer number of room and surround mics seems like massive overkill. I have spent a lot of time checking them all out and it's a rabbit hole of redundancy and similarities to me. 230 gigs!



To me, this is in no way a negative thing. Mic choice = choice and flexibility. It's also completely optional to download the Surround Mics.


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## EvilDragon (Feb 16, 2018)

You don't have to install all the room/surround mics. They are there if somebody needs them, though...

I'm absolutely not disappointed with SD3, it's great.



jtnyc said:


> 1 - The new kits all seem to have been sampled with a limited velocity range. The highest velocities do not reach the maximum of what a hard hitting drummer would hit in a hard hitting track. This is beyond disappointing and an oversight that baffles me.



I think I read somewhere on TT forums that this was a conscious decision. If you want more dynamics out of your snare, you're supposed to layer it with the rimshot articulation and then there's your SNAP when you want it (and is also how a rock drummer would play it!) - rather than baking it into the sample. Basically... a snare center hit is a snare center hit, across all dynamics, not a snare center+snare rim when approaching velocity 127.


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## GtrString (Feb 16, 2018)

All of the 4 issues you list I see as advantages, but I dont produce a lot of metal and hard rock genres. The George Massenburg kits are just spectacular for what I like to do, and worth the price alone.


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## jtnyc (Feb 16, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> You don't have to install all the room/surround mics. They are there if somebody needs them, though...
> 
> I'm absolutely not disappointed with SD3, it's great.
> 
> ...



But a drummer wouldn't be hitting the drum twice, which is what this solution is. I'm sure it would sound ok, but it's just more work and I'm still wondering why they made this conscious decision when all of their other SDX and EZX's included a full range of hits on each note.

To be clear, I don't do metal, but some times hard hitting rock. I've used the Ayotte kit very successfully on a mellow track and it sounds fantastic. I don't hate SD3, but I am fighting with it in certain areas. In addition to what I already listed, the midi mapping was another area that I found changed for the worst compared to SD2.


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## jtnyc (Feb 16, 2018)

hodshonf said:


> very educational thread.
> 
> i feel silly (stupid) now not using or even being aware of the mixer presets - i was setting all my sessions manually in SD2/3.
> 
> ...



How are you saving mixer presets? I am under the impression that you can't in SD3. That is what Toontrack told me


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## jtnyc (Feb 16, 2018)

artomatic said:


> Totally agree with you on #1. I thought I was the only one disappointed with this oversight or omission.



Your not alone -


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## kgdrum (Feb 16, 2018)

Actually the lack of louder hits in the dynamic range is the most common gripe I've seen in SD3 threads on GS.
I haven't updated from SD2 yet but I have numerous SDX expansions I'd use to get around this.


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## jtnyc (Feb 16, 2018)

hodshonf said:


> that's weird.
> 
> i had to go to my groove3.com account and check out the SD3 video on mixer presets.
> 
> ...



I think you are misunderstanding. There are presets which save the entire state of the plugin. A mixer preset would save the state of the mixer only and allow you to call it up whenever you like. This doesn't exist in SD3. You can import aspects of other presets into the currently loaded preset which is what Toontrack suggests as an alternative to being able to just save and recall a mixer preset. That seems to work ok if your just dealing with basic default presets, but if I have alternative room mics activated, they will remain even tho they are not part of the mixer I'm importing, so I end up with a combination of mixers. I'm not sure why, but I'm guessing it's because it's only designed to work with the standard setup, IDK. The other issue is bleed levels are not considered part of the mixer. I see that in the real world they are not part of the mixer, but if you set up a mix and change the bleed levels it has a profound effect on how the kit sounds. I for one would want that saved with the mixer settings.


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## jtnyc (Feb 16, 2018)

kgdrum said:


> Actually the lack of louder hits in the dynamic range is the most common gripe I've seen in SD3 threads on GS.
> I haven't updated from SD2 yet but I have numerous SDX expansions I'd use to get around this.



Yes, I've seen and heard this gripe quite a bit. Of the handful of producers and drummers that I know personally, this has been a problem for them. I just don't understand why Toontrack would change it. 

I have Hit Factory and Allaire and have been falling back on them for this.


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## EvilDragon (Feb 16, 2018)

jtnyc said:


> I'm still wondering why they made this conscious decision when all of their other SDX and EZX's included a full range of hits on each note.



Ask mr. Massenberg?


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## jtnyc (Feb 16, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> Ask mr. Massenberg?



I would think a decision like that would be made by a drummer, not an engineer


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## EvilDragon (Feb 16, 2018)

Perhaps, perhaps not...


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## jtnyc (Feb 16, 2018)

hodshonf said:


> ahh well.
> 
> best of luck.



Can you explain how it is that you are saving mixer presets? You said you watched a video on it. If it is indeed possible, I'd love to know how, thx -


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## kgdrum (Feb 16, 2018)

hodshonf said:


> can you post some links?




This is not a long thread by Gearslutz standards(35 pages & 1035 posts) 
You will see many posts concerning the lack of loud hits in the dynamic range,start looking around page 24.
here you go:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/pro...toontrack-announces-superior-drummer-3-a.html


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## jtnyc (Feb 17, 2018)

hodshonf said:


> just a quick screengrab from the vid...
> 
> if it's not what you are looking for, apologies.



Thanks for that, yes I see that part preset section now, but I don't see a way to actually save anything there. Under user presets there is save, save as, and delete selections (those are presets that save the entire state of the plugin), under the part presets there are no such options, unless I'm completely missing something. I did contact Toontrack when SD3 first came out and they said the only option was to import "parts" from other presets that I had made. I don't remember seeing those part presets in the list in the original release. Maybe they added it in an early update?, But non the less, I still can't see how to actually save a part/mixer preset there. It's not my biggest worry as I've figured out work arounds, less convenient, that's all. Same with midi mapping. I never use or like GM mapping and I remap the kits so I can group all of a kit piece articulations together across my keyboard. In SD2 you could save mapping presets. Not in SD3. Keep in mind I'm talking about remapping the actual articulations to different midi notes, not the midi in/e-drum section. Again, it was easy breezy in SD2 and visually very clear and easy. Not in SD3, and no presets. I have figured out work arounds for this as well, but it just feels like moving backwards not forwards. The good thing is these things generally only need to be set up once and then their done.

I went back and gave another close listen to the dynamic range of the new drums and also listened to some of the examples and opinions on that Gearslutz thread, and I'm still of the same opinion that they really missed the mark by leaving out harder hitting upper velocity hits. And it's not a matter of rim shot vs a hard hit center or mid center hit. Even within the center or mid center hits, the hardest hits are not hit as hard as a hard hitting drummer would hit them. It's the same for the toms. Of coarse there are going to be different opinions about how a drum should be hit and what is the "right" way and what is the "wrong" way, but there is no doubt they changed their approach to this from all of their previous releases. Like I've said, I'm not a metal guy and much of the time I work on mellow, ambient, chill stuff. In those cases the new kits are fine, and the Ayotte toms are a dream, especially the rim shots! So sweet at low velocities. But when I want some bashing beats and bombastic drum fills, these new kits don't cut it. I have The Hit Factory and Allaire for that, but as I've said, those kits only have 1 rack tom. I guess I'll have to look into another SDX that will fill that void for me -)


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## kgdrum (Feb 17, 2018)

jtnyc said:


> Thanks for that, yes I see that part preset section now, but I don't see a way to actually save anything there. Under user presets there is save, save as, and delete selections (those are presets that save the entire state of the plugin), under the part presets there are no such options, unless I'm completely missing something. I did contact Toontrack when SD3 first came out and they said the only option was to import "parts" from other presets that I had made. I don't remember seeing those part presets in the list in the original release. Maybe they added it in an early update?, But non the less, I still can't see how to actually save a part/mixer preset there. It's not my biggest worry as I've figured out work arounds, less convenient, that's all. Same with midi mapping. I never use or like GM mapping and I remap the kits so I can group all of a kit piece articulations together across my keyboard. In SD2 you could save mapping presets. Not in SD3. Keep in mind I'm talking about remapping the actual articulations to different midi notes, not the midi in/e-drum section. Again, it was easy breezy in SD2 and visually very clear and easy. Not in SD3, and no presets. I have figured out work arounds for this as well, but it just feels like moving backwards not forwards. The good thing is these things generally only need to be set up once and then their done.
> 
> I went back and gave another close listen to the dynamic range of the new drums and also listened to some of the examples and opinions on that Gearslutz thread, and I'm still of the same opinion that they really missed the mark by leaving out harder hitting upper velocity hits. And it's not a matter of rim shot vs a hard hit center or mid center hit. Even within the center or mid center hits, the hardest hits are not hit as hard as a hard hitting drummer would hit them. It's the same for the toms. Of coarse there are going to be different opinions about how a drum should be hit and what is the "right" way and what is the "wrong" way, but there is no doubt they changed their approach to this from all of their previous releases. Like I've said, I'm not a metal guy and much of the time I work on mellow, ambient, chill stuff. In those cases the new kits are fine, and the Ayotte toms are a dream, especially the rim shots! So sweet at low velocities. But when I want some bashing beats and bombastic drum fills, these new kits don't cut it. I have The Hit Factory and Allaire for that, but as I've said, those kits only have 1 rack tom. I guess I'll have to look into another SDX that will fill that void for me -)



My favorite SDX,if you can find it used(it pops up for sale occasionally)is Joe Barresi Evil Drums by Platinum Samples.
Platinum stopped making it as a Superior SDX but it's AWESOME!!!
If you want an SDX that rocks and you see someone selling it,grab it & yes it's EVIL!


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## catsass (Feb 18, 2018)

Question: Is it possible to turn off Auto Scroll in the grid editor?


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## jtnyc (Feb 18, 2018)

kgdrum said:


> My favorite SDX,if you can find it used(it pops up for sale occasionally)is Joe Barresi Evil Drums by Platinum Samples.
> Platinum stopped making it as a Superior SDX but it's AWESOME!!!
> If you want an SDX that rocks and you see someone selling it,grab it & yes it's EVIL!



Oh cool, I'll check it out -


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## jtnyc (Feb 18, 2018)

catsass said:


> Question: Is it possible to turn off Auto Scroll in the grid editor?



I'm not sure Cats, I do all my sequencing in Logic


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## bill45 (Feb 18, 2018)

How about Bob Rock's new SDX? I bet there are some hard hits there.
Also the progressive foundry SDX.


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## jtnyc (Feb 18, 2018)

bill45 said:


> How about Bob Rock's new SDX? I bet there are some hard hits there.
> Also the progressive foundry SDX.



I will check it out Bill, thx.

It's funny, I don't want metal sounds. I generally like nice organic "woody" drum sounds which SD3 has in large order. Just wished they hit them harder. I'll check out the the Bob Rock -


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## jtnyc (Feb 18, 2018)

Yes, The Bob Rock sounds great. Great, more money, haha. Hope it's included in the next TT sale -


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## sumskilz (Feb 20, 2018)

jtnyc said:


> But a drummer wouldn't be hitting the drum twice, which is what this solution is. I'm sure it would sound ok, but it's just more work and I'm still wondering why they made this conscious decision when all of their other SDX and EZX's included a full range of hits on each note.


In the other SDXs and EZXs, the center hits switched to rimshots at the higher velocities, now those are two separate articulations, but the default is snare center hits, so you don't need double hits, you just need to make the higher velocity notes into rimshots. A rimshot is hitting both the center and the rim simultaneously, giving it a lot more crack from the attack of the stick on the rim and forcing more vibration into the shell itself. A center hit can never have as much crack and volume as a rimshot. A rimshot also gives the impression of a larger stick because the angle at which the stick strikes the center of the head results in more surface area contact between the stick and head (more side than tip).

Another difference, is there appears to be absolutely no baked in saturation on the SD3 library. When you're recording real drums, you're almost always getting a bit more saturation on the hard hits from the analog gear which adds a sense of intensity to them, but the SD3 library was recorded clinically clean. So adding some saturation or emulation of saturation with a character of your choice can help.

The default kick drum articulations are also open now which is a rounder sound. Harder hitting drummers tend to dig into the head more getting a punchier drier sound. You can get that sound by switching to the hit articulation.

All that said, the hits may not be as hard as in some other Toontrack libraries. Although that might be a misleading way of saying it. It seems to me that the issue is more that none of the samples were done with a heavier stick size. In my opinion, medium sized sticks are appropriate for most genres. As a drummer, one of the things that comes across as fake in programmed parts is all the over use of high velocity hits.

I was initially disappointed with the SD3 sounds, until a I realized what was causing the issues, now I actually prefer them to previous SDXs. Custom & Vintage is my favorite for baked in character, but the sampling is not near as deep as on the SD3 factory library.


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## Darren Durann (Feb 20, 2018)

I'm disappointed to hear that. As a general rule, Supe is the BALLS BAYBEEEE!


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## jtnyc (Feb 20, 2018)

sumskilz said:


> In the other SDXs and EZXs, the center hits switched to rimshots at the higher velocities, now those are two separate articulations, but the default is snare center hits, so you don't need double hits, you just need to make the higher velocity notes into rimshots. A rimshot is hitting both the center and the rim simultaneously, giving it a lot more crack from the attack of the stick on the rim and forcing more vibration into the shell itself. A center hit can never have as much crack and volume as a rimshot. A rimshot also gives the impression of a larger stick because the angle at which the stick strikes the center of the head results in more surface area contact between the stick and head (more side than tip).
> 
> Another difference, is there appears to be absolutely no baked in saturation on the SD3 library. When you're recording real drums, you're almost always getting a bit more saturation on the hard hits from the analog gear which adds a sense of intensity to them, but the SD3 library was recorded clinically clean. So adding some saturation or emulation of saturation with a character of your choice can help.
> 
> ...



I agree with your points and am aware that they used to put the rim shot on the highest velocity and don't now, but that's not what I'm referring to. I still contend that the upper range of the center, off center and tom hits are not as hard as the hardest hit non rimshot samples were on previous SDX's, or as hard as the hardest hit of a hard hitting drummer would hit center, off center or toms. It varies from drum to drum. Some of the new snares and toms just about get there, and others don't even come close, their range feels very limited. The sounds themselves are great and I have plenty of use for the new kits, just not for hard hitting stuff. I just feel they could have included another level of harder hits at the top of the range. There are plenty of other SDX's that can deliver harder hits. I have a few, but as I've said, The Hit Factory and Allaire only have 1 rack tom, so they're not perfect. Avatar has 3 rack toms, but I don't love the sound of that library... haha. I took a listen to the new Bob Rock SDX and thought it sounded really good. I'll check it out some more and maybe that's my ticket for the harder hitting stuff...


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