# Hairdogan fires the FBI director



## NoamL (May 9, 2017)

The day after former AG Yates' testimony, too.


----------



## NoamL (May 9, 2017)

More info is coming out -

*The pretext for his firing* is that he misbehaved by publicly announcing the outcome of the FBI's investigation into Hillary's emails, in a breach with tradition. Of course, anyone whose short term memory hasn't been addled by hairspray fumes can easily remember that _in 2016 Republicans were demanding_ that Comey publicly announce his findings separately from the DOJ investigation precisely because they felt (rightly or wrongly) that the DOJ investigation was tainted by the fact that Loretta Lynch was an Obama appointee. 

So: the pretext of his firing is an obvious bit of bullshit plus this makes Trump looks guilty as heck.

In what possible world does putting up with the flak and fallout from this move, serve Trump _better_ than allowing the Russia investigation to proceed?


----------



## woodsdenis (May 9, 2017)

Surely at this point you can call it a constitutional crisis, firing the guy that is investigating him. Hopefully now Comey will leak what he does know.


----------



## NoamL (May 10, 2017)

The plot immediately thickens, at least according to admin officials leaking to NYT:
*
Days before he was fired, James B. Comey, the former F.B.I. director, asked the Justice Department for a significant increase in money and personnel for the bureau’s investigation into Russia’s interference in the presidential election, according to three officials with knowledge of his request. Mr. Comey asked for the resources during a meeting last week with Rod J. Rosenstein, the deputy attorney general who wrote the Justice Department’s memo that was used to justify the firing of the F.B.I. director this week.
*
By all accounts Mr Rosenstein is a relatively nonpartisan civil servant (i.e. closer to Yates and Comey than to Sessions and Trump). That really raises the question of what his role in all of this has been.

I had suspected that the chain of events was:

1. Trump to Sessions: "Fire this guy before he gets close to our Russia stuff."
2. Sessions to Trump: "You need a recommendation from AG."
3. Trump: "You're the AG, write me one."
4. Sessions: "Can't, would look guilty as fudge. I recused myself from Russia stuff remember?"
5. Trump: "Well figure out some other way to do this."
6. Sessions to recently hired DAG Rosenstein: "Here, write this rec for me so that my hands are clean."
7. Rosenstein to Rosenstein's wife: "Yep, Day 12 on the job and they already have me shoveling the horse poop."

But it turns out it was more like:

1. Comey to Rosenstein: "Hey I need more money for this Russia investigation."
2. Rosenstein to Sessions: "Comey is asking for more resources to look into Russia stuff."
3. Sessions to Trump: "Holy shit our shit's on fire shit shit shit"
4. Trump to Sessions: "Well get rid of him dummy."
5. Sessions to Rosenstein _because Sessions is a blithering idiot_: "Here you do this. No way this could possibly backfire!"
6. Rosenstein to Rosenstein's wife: "Yeah, they're getting impeached. Can you stop by Brooks Bros and get me a new suit for my Congressional hearing in 6 months?"


----------



## chimuelo (May 10, 2017)

Cryin' Chuck Schumer is really upset about Comeys replacement though.....


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 10, 2017)

It was inevitable that something like this would happen, only we couldn't know what form it would take.

Mitch McConnell is going to go down as one of the worst villains in history. Comey is too, but in a different way.

Really, really sad time.


----------



## chimuelo (May 10, 2017)

Well as long as politicians deceive Americans to pit them against each other while they deem themselves as heros, this is what you'll get.
I listened to arguments from the lefties and righties, each with pre selected talking points, boring me to tears.
Reporters ask Trump, he simply says he wasn't doing his job.

When you answer and reply with such simplicity it's effective.
Listening to the show dogs giving lengthy explanations means they don't know what they're talking about well enough to answer...


----------



## NoamL (May 10, 2017)

chimuelo said:


> When you answer and reply with such simplicity it's effective.



Do you believe Trump's statement?

Did you also believe "I have full confidence in Gen. Flynn"?

Did you also believe Jeff "Ah never met with no Russians nyah" Sessions?

For a guy who takes visible glee in a-pox-on-both-your-houses-ing our political system and tarring all politicians as liars conning the simpleton rubes, you sure seem the easiest mark of any of _us_...


----------



## chimuelo (May 10, 2017)

McConnell is literally hated in Kentucky, but he wins with little effort against the multi billion dollar Liberal cash machine just because he answers a question instead of spinning around.

When Hollywood and global investors poured millions into the last Senatorial race a reporter asked McConnell if he was nervous that the Clintons would campaign with his opponent, and he said no, now I know she'll lose.
It's exactly what happened, and was repeated everywhere Clintons showed up to campaign.

But instead of paying attention to national trends they selected Hillary for President and entire Democratic States turned Red.

Liberals had better find a credible candidate instead of more con artists with experience at failing.
It's not hard to do, there's plenty of talent.
The DNC keeps picking the worst candidates for you.
Take a stand or Pence wins in 2024, and Ted Cruz gets a seat at SCOTUS, etc.


----------



## NoamL (May 10, 2017)

I'm not sure what one word of that post had to do with this topic.


----------



## chimuelo (May 10, 2017)

NoamL said:


> Do you believe Trump's statement?
> 
> Did you also believe "I have full confidence in Gen. Flynn"?
> 
> ...



Difference between you and me is you believe what you hear, then get angry to find out they lied.
I know they lie everytime they speak, so I'm never mad.
I follow the money.

Let's face it, these people don't care about you, and why should they?
You have no money.

As long as we have trillions going to D.C. and legislation is written by investors your voice is inconsequential.

But if you feel better telling yourself you selected your own candidates, and they're there to help you, I sympathies with you.
If I believed that nonsense I'd be angry too.


----------



## Soundhound (May 10, 2017)

NoamL said:


> I'm not sure what one word of that post had to do with this topic.



Nothing. 'Hairdogon' is genius btw.


----------



## NoamL (May 10, 2017)

chimuelo said:


> Difference between you and me is you believe what you hear, then get angry to find out they lied.
> I know they lie everytime they speak, so I'm never mad.
> I follow the money.
> 
> ...



You didn't really answer my question, don't worry, I'll simplify it for you.

Do you believe that Trump fired Comey "because he wasn't doing his job" or is Trump lying?


----------



## NoamL (May 10, 2017)

*3 Reasons Trump's Excuse For Firing Comey Doesn't Add Up*

tl;dr

1. In October 2016, Trump _praised_ Comey for releasing the letter
2. In October 2016, AG Sessions stated Comey had "an absolute duty" to publicly release the information
3. In January 2017, Trump asked Comey to continue his term

Yet now Comey is abruptly fired and the administration says it's because Comey's letter from 6 months ago, the same letter they praised, lowered the public's confidence in the FBI.

Do they take us for fools?


----------



## chimuelo (May 10, 2017)

Like I said, it's all lies. 

We will see an impeachment. But it was planned long ago.
Trump was the perfect guy.

For decades, since JFKs days, the real powers have been Asset Managers at the Fed, Wall Street and the Pentagon. They allow the 2 party's to take turns sharing power while they continue their separate but equally powerful agendas moving forward.
For a coup, you need these powers acting in concert.
This requires the cabinet positions to equally represent these spheres of influence, while never really occupying the seats.
Well now they occupy the seats.

We are 6 months away from complete energy independence.
If you wanted a successful coup, you'd need a cooperating President too, although they could just remove whoever is there using a false flag Gulf of Tonkin, etc.

But Trump is really doing the crazy out of control gangster really well.
It's not far fetched to think he'll be seen wanting to attack NKorea, then having the generals already in key positions at border control, NSA, nsc, sec of defense, make an announcement that trump flipped out and martial law is declared until cooler heads prevail.
Who looks cooler, freaked out Liberals, indecisive Conservatives, or the Generals already there?

Sounds crazy, but the chessboard is set up that way, to ignore the board placement would be negligent.


----------



## NYC Composer (May 11, 2017)

I hope the investigation goes somewhere and that Republicans regain a modicum of patriotism and sanity before this guy kills us all. I sort of doubt it though.

It's all in the hands of the intelligence agencies and investigative journalists. There's a smoking gun somewhere, I hope someone finds it. I don't believe the chip, chip chip will do the trick. Also, I very much doubt that Trump will ever resign, although I'm inclined to think he won't try for another term. "Who knew it would be this hard?"


----------



## chimuelo (May 11, 2017)

"Intelligence"....you mean like Homicide detectives who can round up suspects on day 2 of an investigation, have the ADA pressing charges within days or weeks.
They have a fraction of the assets the NSA has.
NSA turns over data to the FBI. If they had proof it would have been presented before confirming the Federal Reserve, Wall Street and Pentagon cabinet positions.

Firing Comey on day 1 would have stopped the investigation if we were to apply the current Liberal theory of how Comey was getting close.
Plus Hillary and the wealthy whites would have cheered.
Interesting how the same clowns think the exact opposite now.
Their only success come 2018 might be how they cause others than themselves to fail.

Looking forward to more losses like Kansas, Georgia, etc.
Poor bastards have to have a win sooner or later.
At this rate Soros will have to keep buying Conservatives like Ivankas husband. 
Yeah, 250,000,000 from George. That money was meant for Liberal campaigns.
Maybe Trump should just tell Liberals he's a Liberal.
Then they'll believe they're winning.


----------



## NoamL (May 11, 2017)

chimuelo said:


> Firing Comey on day 1 would have stopped the investigation if we were to apply the current Liberal theory of how Comey was getting close.



Correct. Trump didn't do this because he falsely believed Comey had his back.


----------



## woodsdenis (May 11, 2017)

Whats happening here I wonder ?


----------



## chimuelo (May 11, 2017)

We will all believe what we want, and our left/right news organizations have their talking points delivered daily.
None of us know what happened, and these "investigations" that drag out for years are meant to last forever. This keeps chaos and distractions properly placed.

If Trump colluded wouldn't Putin use that to keep troop deployments from Poland, the Baltics, Afghanistan, Syria and Somalia in place, threatening to expose him?
Hillary was smart to keep a private server, seems nobody hacked her.
The Foundations "Lawyers" testified they destroyed the multiple devices too.

None of us know what happened but endless investigations where nobody is held accountable is business as usual.
This is a great excuse for not passing legislation.
That's about it though.
The GOP could shut down these Dog and pony shows.
So could Trump. They are in power of every committee.

I want to know what's happening so I follow Mattis, McMasters, Treasury Sec, the important people.
There's nothing I can find on their intinerary, where they're traveling, etc.

But again to answer your question, is Trump lying?
Of course he is, as is Schumer, Obama, Clinton, Pelosi, all of these people.

So for me to watch Rachel Maddow or Sean Hannity discussing and analyzing their lies, then listen to advertisers lie for 5 minutes during corporate breaks is a complete waste of life.

330,000,000 people in the USA. App. 280,000,000 are capable of watching the news.
Ratings keep them alive with corporate ad money.
There's only 2 million viewers checking out Fox, their ratings are higher than all others. So 5,000,000 sheep keep these "news" outlets in business.
You'd think the entire nation watches these clowns.
About 1.7% of people capable of watching "News" is a fraction.

They're good at making you think you are a majority, or your team is winning.
It's like the usual climate change parrots saying 99% of the worlds scientists believe taxing fossil fuels even more will halt climate change.
Wow, I'd better agree or I'm a flat earthier.
Okay, but let me see the list please..such a large consensus means surely there was a large ceremony where awards were given, or a global warming summit.
Okay, guess not, how about just a list since like scientists, I base decisions on facts...
I see, so there is no list....
I'd paid 1 large to see a list of 75%, please show me a list and take my money....

If governments would re direct flood water to drought stricken areas actually preparing for Earths final days I would believe they're serious.
Going to take more than lies, Lear jets limos and Nobel Peace Prizes for me.

I sometimes wish I wasn't analytical or had above average comprehension.
Then I might forget what I've heard, read, or was persuaded to do...

Trump lied.......damn, I thought he was for us little people...


----------



## NoamL (May 11, 2017)

The fact that you've retreated from "Nothing to see here" to "We'll never know the truth" says a lot. Can you look in the mirror and consider a counterfactual honestly? Would you be spreading such FUD if/when the investigation clears Trump of wrongdoing? Of effing course not, you'd be trumpeting it from the rooftops.

At least my position is consistent. Let the facts be what they may, let's just uncover the truth. If Trump's guilty he's guilty. If he's innocent he's innocent.


----------



## NoamL (May 11, 2017)

*"FBI to continue Trump-Russia probe but will not update White House, Acting Director announces"*

Ruh roh...


----------



## chimuelo (May 11, 2017)

Of course there's something to see, but it will only be what they want you to see.

Hillary is under investigation, as is Huma, as is her husband, as is Trump as is Bernie Sanders wife.

Every candidate we wanted to win is under criminal investigation.

We'll be entertained for years.


----------



## woodsdenis (May 11, 2017)

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/f...paign-consultants-in-maryland/article/2622839


Mmmmmm not local but Washington based FBI. What could it be I wonder ?


----------



## NoamL (May 11, 2017)

chimuelo said:


> Of course there's something to see, but it will only be what they want you to see.
> 
> Hillary is under investigation, as is Huma, as is her husband, as is Trump as is Bernie Sanders wife.
> 
> ...



Your ability to adopt new positions at a headline's notice rivals the President's.



woodsdenis said:


> http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/f...paign-consultants-in-maryland/article/2622839
> 
> Mmmmmm not local but Washington based FBI. What could it be I wonder ?



Funny money. Possibly rubles.


----------



## woodsdenis (May 11, 2017)

NoamL said:


> Your ability to adopt new positions at a headline's notice rivals the President's.
> 
> 
> 
> Funny money. Possibly rubles.




Comey alluded to this last week when asked, sealed indictments have been handed down in the Southern District of New York, with four sealed indictments in the Eastern District of Virginia. Its more than likely this is the start.

Edit, Paul Manafort is connected to this company.
Edit 2, and the link to Trump.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 11, 2017)

Xeni Jardin (journalist) tweet: I'd lay money on extremely dark, damning Txxxx [NB: obscenity censored] content hitting sunlight soon. We all know it exists. And it's far worse than we can imagine.

Malcolm Nance (talking head, expert on foreign intelligence and other subjects - impressive guy): Concur. My guess is it will originate in Europe and be irrefutable. Stand by.


----------



## chimuelo (May 11, 2017)

This is going to be a great thread.
Please re-post and copy/paste for all to see, its the "news"..I read it on Twitter and the Times...

PR Firms are hard at work for their owners.
At least this gal honestly states her occupation.......Persuasive PR.






I hope my brothers don't take the next meltdown to hard.
We've seen this before.

Just want you to know I'm behind you 100%....(Snickering)


----------



## Dave Connor (May 11, 2017)

I'm glad Comey is gone. Enough is enough with that guy. As far as the FBI investigation, there are of course numerous agents investigating the Russian connection. If anything, a lot of them are pissed off by the abrupt firing so if there's any real evidence of collusion they will come up with it and heads will roll including Trump's if he is personally implicated.

Here is what may have actually happened: When Comey said he became _mildly nauseous _at the thought of influencing a presidential election, Trump took that as a direct reference to himself (the idea of Trump getting elected made Comey sick.) Which is not what Comey meant! He just meant that an action that he took resulting in influencing the outcome of _any _presidential election bothered him a lot. Trump though, is just not intelligent enough to make that distinction and of course a world class narcissist so he flipped. This is the reason for the timing.


----------



## NYC Composer (May 11, 2017)

Not only a narcissist-he feels deeply unloved.

Looking back at the inflation of the numbers at his Inaugural, it was as if he was crying because people didn't come to his birthday party.


----------



## chimuelo (May 12, 2017)

Leslie Gore was such a great soul.
My bros in Vegas were floored by her death then the Stardust implosion.
Few bandleader/singers were as loved.

That aside, Nothing but thanks from lying Liberals to bring us the era of Trump.
I don't know what's worse, watching Liberals going insane, or the guy with the briefcase.
It's the only thing Hillary said during her campaign that gave me a reason to vote for her.

I'm stuck in a hotel so cable news with breakfast is a terrible way to start the day.
CNN, then Joe and then I had to watch Fox to calm down....%^*+^%#^*

Totally understand why people are nervous.
DC is in a meltdown.
Trump telling Comey not to leak his conversations on Twitter might be great for twitters ratings but making me a nervous wreck.

We need a 3rd Party.
These 2 law firms are shot


----------



## Soundhound (May 12, 2017)

That's right Jimmy, Trump's election is purely the fault of lying liberals. Trump/the GOP/Fox News had nothing at all to do with it. The clarity you share on the issue is, as always, much appreciated. We are in your debt.


----------



## chimuelo (May 12, 2017)

Obama Soros DNC Shoved Clinton down our throats when a "Man" with a far better voting record would have won.
Y'all stacked the deck, had billions and still lost.
Please discourage her or Obama from trying to pretend they're for the middle class.

At least Lie-a-Watha is aware of the corruption.
I might even forgive her hypocrisy and lies to bring Union Democrats back from the party of God..

If these beltway clowns would listen instead of lecture Comey could have been fired by a Democrat.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 12, 2017)

Txxxx probably committed treason.

chim: That's because both sides are corrupt, especially liberals.

Txxxx is a pile of garbage.

chim: That's because both sides are corrupt, especially liberals.

My car's broken.

chim: That's because both sides are corrupt, especially liberals.

I like fornicating with vacuum cleaners.

chim: That's because both sides are corrupt, especially liberals.

I have erectile dysfunction.

chim: That's because both sides are corrupt, especially liberals.


----------



## NoamL (May 12, 2017)




----------



## chimuelo (May 12, 2017)

Crazy shit indeed.
Cause both Law Firms and their PR Firms lie for a living.
Especially Liberals...


----------



## chimuelo (May 12, 2017)

And yes Nick Trump is all of the above.
But will remove illegal criminals and provide a pathway to citizenship.
Just in time for 2020.

It's the smart play and right now Teamsters, AFL-CIO, Building & Trades Association know Trump is pro labor/infrastructure, not Liberal infrastructure for Nancy, Harry, Murtha, etc.
So there's 1/3 of the Hispanic vote already.
The other 2/3s are issue driven but Trump insulted them.
Making them grateful is wise by declaring new immigration policy.

He is a piece of shit, but nobody will care when the boom takes NASDAQ to 25,000 and wages rise.

Liberal trickle down from the middle class working families to their voters isn't working.

Brave New World.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 12, 2017)

Actually, the big picture is that the left moved to the center over the past three decades, and that appeasement didn't work.


----------



## Soundhound (May 14, 2017)

This. And the right moved to fascism. So as always, where does the focus need to be, the immediate crisis posed by the radical right wing, or the complicity of the system as a whole to corporate power? You have to do both I think, but to take your eye off the radical right wing for a second is lunacy.


----------



## chimuelo (May 14, 2017)

Not as bad as the Sharia Liberals though.
What fools would allow a Sharia Muslim gal to herd them into a protest and turn her into a rising star of the Liberal cause. Movie stars and celebs were well paid for speaking, obviously well funded.
I think Soros expects Liberal Sheep to support Sharia now.
Not a problem...
They goosestep for cash when instructed to do so.


----------



## Soundhound (May 14, 2017)

Just when I think rational discussion with you is possible, you pull that kind of nonsense again. Serves me right!


----------



## woodsdenis (May 14, 2017)

http://nypost.com/2017/05/11/drunk-man-unleashes-racist-tirade-at-beach-going-family/

Jimmy on holiday last week.


----------



## chimuelo (May 14, 2017)

I'm a good looking racist, that guys ugly.

He's actually an ISIS supporter as his tats indicate, he's got the beard, and he's from Connecticut.....Definitely a Sharia Liberal.

Obviously trying to infiltrate white supremacist groups in Texas.
Then he reports back to the Sharia Liberals.
But many of the Sharia Liberals are gone now.
CIA Director Brennan, Huma several at the DOJ and even the one left behind by Obama who advised him on giving billions to Iran and hundreds of millions to Abbas/Hezbollah, and her 2 overpaid buddy's doing IT work for Congress got whacked.

Drain the Swamp and making America great again must be overwhelming.
Sharia investors have employees all over the place.
To allow ISIS to murder so many people must have cost Sharia investors billions to Liberals.


----------



## Soundhound (May 14, 2017)

Jimmy you're licking frogs again. 

Meanwhile back on planet earth, looks like the shit is poised to hit the fan. Rumors about Trump soon to be under indictment, and this little bit of fresh air from Clapper: 

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/14/politics/james-clapper-russia-collusion/


----------



## chimuelo (May 14, 2017)

Actually learned to eat Frogs and Gators since I've been here.

This Christmas Liberals will still be trying to find evidence.
I'll be so use to hearing their whiny voices I'll need to change the words for Christmas songs.
Drummer boy was always a nice groove.
Pah-rump ah- pum pum....

Pah-Russia Trump Trump.

If Trump doesn't rescue the American economy from the 13 Trillion dollar debt Liberals added while creating more poverty (voters) your kids and grandkids might become slaves as the interest on the debt just takes over Federal outlays.
I agreed with Hillary when she said Liberal debt was a National Security threat.
She speaks the truth until her handlers grab her and hand her different scripts.

Lucky for her she's got hundreds of millions now.
Even anti evil CEO/Banker Obama is cashing in on favors already....awesome.
65,000,000 for a book, 400,000 for a 20 minute speech.
Fake Liberal Capitalists are awesome.

Liberals didn't lie about the 1.2 Trillion for Infrastructure.
You can see it at work below in the map.

If they clean up their air I might just decide to move there and escape the ever growing violent liberal ghettos. Over there criminals get arrested, bribing public officials is a crime.
We did the exact opposite the last 8 years.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 15, 2017)

The debt should be higher. We still need big public investment even now that we're closer to full employment again.

Txxxx's infrastructure = paying rich piggies with tax breaks for investments in private roads we don't need.

That's not what liberals want.


----------



## chimuelo (May 15, 2017)

Link me to Trumps plan, I was unaware they had one yet.
I'd love to read it.

I'd prefer Eisenhowers Blueprint.
That's what folks who work for a living want...


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 15, 2017)

I'd prefer Eisenhower's blueprint too! As I've said before, we big projects we can all be proud of spiritually, not just economically. That's what would unite the country again. I just read recently that going to the moon was 4% of federal spending, and it was worth it.

Here's one link to the $1T private roads for rich piggies plan: http://thehill.com/policy/transportation/313145-toll-roads-poised-to-boom-under-trump-plan


----------



## NoamL (May 15, 2017)

Well here we go

1. Trump fires Comey.

2. Trump contradicts WHPR's narrative that it was all due to DAG's letter, blandly states he fired Comey over Russia investigation

3. Trump invites Russian state press inside Oval Office at Putin's request, excludes USA press

and today we learn:

4. Trump revealed to Russians classified information about undercover operative given to US by key Middle East ally (likely Israel but also possibly Jordan)

People will die from this. Remember when all the smug coastie liberals with our degrees said Trump was unfit to be President, only to be gainsaid by all you wonderful Americans like Chimmy who "work for a living"?


----------



## NYC Composer (May 15, 2017)

Hahaha! I quote that.scene to my folks on Mother's Day. Best part is Cleavon breaking up at the punchline.


----------



## chimuelo (May 15, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I'd prefer Eisenhower's blueprint too! As I've said before, we big projects we can all be proud of spiritually, not just economically. That's what would unite the country again. I just read recently that going to the moon was 4% of federal spending, and it was worth it.
> 
> Here's one link to the $1T private roads for rich piggies plan: http://thehill.com/policy/transportation/313145-toll-roads-poised-to-boom-under-trump-plan



So it's still a balloon until negotiated but Federal jive Red Tape has to be eliminated.
We need growth not more shake down money disappearing to fund luxurious federal pensions.

I did a Davis-Bacon gig building a High School.
It took 3 years where the Private school with swimming pools tennis courts and 2 gymnasiums took 14 months.
It was a Right To Work bidder who came in under the cut off for Union contractors by 1.5 million.
Federal job costed 5 times as much and more than twice the time to build.
I got fat with cash for gear, but noticed the private school was making money to recup their investment 2 year earlier than the Feds.

The new World Trade Center job is another example of government jive.
We top off towers in Vegas in 16 months jacking 64-72 stories.
After 6 years at the new WTC we said they were fucking the dogs.
After 10 years we said they were fucking the dogs and selling the puppies....


----------



## Soundhound (May 15, 2017)

The Republicans are stuck. They'll never move to impeach Trump and piss off the base that loves him no matter what. Anything he does, the base will assume he's being framed. They are that stupid. But at his current rate of fucking up everything he touches, something will have to give. Pence will give the Republicans everything they want too, so presumably they are figuring out how to make that happen.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 15, 2017)

Pence, the guy who God commanded not to be alone in an office with a woman - right before he commanded him to lie through his teeth to the American people on live TV.

I think it's that they're afraid of a complete sweep next election if this whole administration crashes and burns - which is where they're headed very quickly anyway. But the real problem is that they're disgusting pieces of shit. All they care about is money, and they've proven that over and over again.

They don't care about the survival of our democracy, our national security, the lives of tens of thousands of people they want to murder by taking away their healthcare, about public education, and on and on. The epitome of these craven pigs is criminal and racist little asshole Jeff Sessions.

That whole party just sucks. I truly hate them.


----------



## chimuelo (May 15, 2017)

Pence had a waitress take a Bottle of Mrs. Butterworths Syrup from the table once, then had it brought back once wifey was seated.
God will not allow him to sit with other women without wifey there.
Too bad. I'd be hanging with all of those Trump babes.

In 2018 it will be Pelosi, Cryin' Chuck and maybe 100 Liberals left.
People are burnt out on crying men and angry fist shaking Clintonites...


----------



## chimuelo (May 16, 2017)

Just read white racist Mitch McConells Asian racist wife's white paper (racist term should be changed to yellow paper since she is Asian) using 200,000,000,000 Federal funding for infrastructure.
I think they should pony up a trillion to get partnerships with contractors like Bechtel, Perini and Briggs and Stratton.
IBEW has gone from 1 year of work on the books in 2014 to 10 years, and this would add 15 more years on top of that.
Feds need a Trillion, less than Liberals 1.2 Trillion con job.

Sure glad my boy got a real education instead of letting schooling get in his way.
Little jerk is getting 48 on the envelope (pay stub) and 64 on the books.
His great great grandfather was one of the first members of Local 1 in St.Louis who set up the Worlds Fair there in 1904.
He's killing it building the Raiders Stadium.
Nevada loves taking businesses and Corporations fleeing the punitive Liberal policies in Cali.
If Cali decides to leave the States, only a slither along the coast will leave, defense industry, tech industry will split, and it will just become a giant ghetto by the Sea.

It can be called the Socialist Counties of Calizuela....


----------



## Soundhound (May 16, 2017)

Jeff Sessions is heavily invested in prison stocks. Go figure.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 16, 2017)

Is that true, Soundhound? Do you have a link?

That would be unbelievable, even worse than Tom Price (full emesis tray HHS Sec who voted for legislation that boosted his stocks).


----------



## chimuelo (May 16, 2017)

Bob Barker has the monopoly on prison jumpsuits.
Not the game show host, Democratic Senator from back east.

But big deal, making money off of inmates is tax funded guaranteed.
Solyndra investors were folks like Pelosis brother n Law.
Bush said no way he would invest federal money into the company.
Then Obama did. They went bankrupt months later.

Tax payers were sent to the end of the line, Liberals got paid first.
One of Obamas first in a series of executive orders, but investors then used federal inmates to build solar panels for 1.28 an hour with the money they stole from us.
Wealthy Liberals are quite conservative with their money.
It's our money they waste by the trillion.
Check out Pelosis vineyards. Won't even pay workers Union wages.
You gotta be a wealthy Liberal to get away with that kind of greed.
Do as I say, not as I do....
Great campaign slogan for 2018.

So Sessions isn't the first person to invest in prisoners.


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-solar-prison-suniva-insight-idUSKBN0OQ0DT20150610


----------



## chimuelo (May 16, 2017)

Have a laugh watching this video.
14 seconds but hilarious.


----------



## NoamL (May 16, 2017)

Well, it's now coming out that Comey privately kept written records of all his meetings with the President, and that during a meeting the day after Flynn resigned Trump asked Comey to abandon the Flynn investigation.


----------



## chimuelo (May 16, 2017)

Even Hillary likes Comey again.
He's going to work at her new anti-Trump/ save the children, kittens and puppies Foundation.


----------



## NYC Composer (May 16, 2017)

I watch a bit of Fox each day. They've exhumed the corpse of Hillary Clinton so as to re-investigate her. Timing is everything in life.

Basically, the Fox narrative is this:

1. Well, he may be bad but, but Hillary was even worse.
2. These leaks are CRIMINAL.
3. Liberals are sore losers and VIOLENT to boot.
4. We have Tucker Carlson substituting for O'Reilly now, and he's TAKEN OFF HIS BOW TIE- so watch out, snowflakes.


----------



## chimuelo (May 17, 2017)

PR Firms are unique in the way they survive from advertising money.
Fox isn't wasting millions seeking certain markets, they are reactive to other PR Firms and take over 50% of markets countering the other predictable PR agendas.

Everyone knows Una Vision, NYTimes and Washington Post are owned by politically active billionaires. They can operate at a loss because the win comes when their candidates win seats in Congress or Executive branch.
Fox just goes where Liberal PR Firms don't. Low overhead, easy money.

But thanks to the ratings game the last 2 administrations gave us a President with no experience but were great for ratings.
The last election brought us 2 candidates under criminal investigation.

Even Bernies wife is under investigation.

Comey really screwed up Clinton, but now is the hero for getting fired.
His successor has a wife that took 750,000 dollars from Clinton Campaign fund raiser.

Our system over the last decade has become so corrupted it makes people angry.
Our AG must recuse himself from Hillarys investigation.
Mayor and Kagan have had to recuse themselves on cases making the balance tilt the opposite way due to activists becoming judges.

Tit for tat is what we are getting.

Americans now know candidates are selected by the wealthy to serve.
The medias role is to persuade their believers.

It's so bad Larry that you actually waste time watching Fox News.
You know each day what will be said in the Times and Fox News.
Yet you must continue believing you are being "informed."

Someday voters will shut down the DNC are RNC to create an honest 3rd Party.
Only in America and N.Korea are politicians worshipped.
The "media" even has the same purpose.

Tucker Carlson and Ed Shultz are good friends I hear.
Each congratulating the other for bringing in advertisers.
Which had/has nothing to do with "news."


----------



## Soundhound (May 17, 2017)

Snopes says mostly false. He has some vanguard funds with prison stocks. 

http://www.snopes.com/jeff-sessions-private-prisons/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamsa...essions-oks-private-jails-again/#1e126c10ce38




Nick Batzdorf said:


> Is that true, Soundhound? Do you have a link?
> 
> That would be unbelievable, even worse than Tom Price (full emesis tray HHS Sec who voted for legislation that boosted his stocks).


----------



## Soundhound (May 17, 2017)

Tom Price, as I think I've blathered on here before, is a butcher and a racist. He helped block the connecting of Atlanta to the northern suburbs to keep black people out of there. And he operated on my cousin's leg 30 years ago and the doctors who reviewed the work a week later were horrified at what he'd done, and weren't able to completely correct it, she still has problems with the leg today. 

This kind of hack is what the republican party is made up of today. Mitch McConnell is just the most visible.


----------



## NoamL (May 17, 2017)

While @chimuelo throws more chaff in the air, the latest on the ground development is the DOJ has acquiesced in appointing an independent counsel. 

Kind of hard to remember that Comey was only fired a week ago. This is all moving pretty fast.


----------



## chimuelo (May 18, 2017)

DNC has been outsmarted again.
An investigation on corruption and collusion means DNC Server, Hillarys Server, maybe even Foundation servers, Stare Department servers, DOJ Servers, all are fair game in an investigation.
Will the DNC Hillary and others cooperate?

DNC just had their bluff called. They never wanted the focus of this investigation to go beyond Trump but it's got legs to follow Russia wherever they attempted/succeeded hacking.

I do see the GOP and Trump getting Obamacare modified basically kicking the can, tax reform and a pretty strong foreign policy as world leaders love the limelight Trump has offered.

This is Trumps ticket to a one term Presidency.
I actually think that's what he wants.

Should always be careful what you ask for.


----------



## NoamL (May 18, 2017)

^

"This is great news for John McCain!"


----------



## NoamL (May 18, 2017)

For those who might not remember the reference, John McCain held an interview during the 2008 election where he forgot how many houses he owned. Obama's campaign started attacking him for it. And some flack went on TV and said this was Great News For John McCain because it mean the Republicans would now be free to air ads about Tony Rezko.

(it did not, in fact, turn out to be great news for John McCain)

Anyway from that point on, in certain corners of the internet, anytime someone fucks up huge and their supporters contort themselves in knots to see how the defeat is actually an 11-dimensional-chess ploy, that's "Great news for John McCain."


----------



## chimuelo (May 18, 2017)

Well no more Congressional hearings interrupting sporting events.
Guess it's good to get back to making America great again.

Spicer and Sarah Suck-a-he should go do other things.
I want to see Trump give his own Press conferences and tell "reporters" fuck you, who's next, is it true Mr. President that you and........fuck off......next.

Light the Swamp on fire, it will drain itself.

My question is in 2032 when Americans want to bring back the dead, which candidate will be selected for you.....


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 18, 2017)

I think that (for a change) your analysis is wrong, Chim.

As Dan Rather put it, the dam just burst (after all the dripping, in other words). This is a real investigation and I think you'll see that.

The question is whether Txxxx will fire Robert Mueller, which I certainly wouldn't put past him at all. There are hundreds of FBI people on the case - cases - and my hunch is that they know what they're doing.

Whether Txxxx stays in office depends on Republicans in the legislature, and they've shown over and over that all they care about is money. But the FBI investigation isn't a sham.


----------



## chimuelo (May 18, 2017)

Agreed.
Cant wait to see Mueller drain the Swamp for Trump.

I'm from a different school who knows why billionaires that buy Liberals own Newspapers, Cable and Radio.
When Hillary says she didn't accept money for selling our Uranium, this means she did.
When she says I have no political ambitions to be NYorks Senator, it means yes she does and Israeli billionaire Una Vision owner made it happen, even though a loyal honest super delegate refused his 1,000,000 dollar bribe.
When Trump says I hate these investigations, he loves them.

Reason is no more hearings, no more there/there, all Russian probes and their content will be revealed by investigators with teeth.
Not Liberal showdogs in Congress gravelling for the camera.
Legislation can continue free from distractions.

This investigation serves him best.
Even if he says it doesn't.
When every single politician except Pelosi likes Mueller, it shows she's smart enough to see this will take out the garbage, so expect Liberals crying publicly for the deck to be reshuffled after it concludes (December 2019)..

Meanwhile Koch Brothers will defeat Soros since nobody wants to give Liberals money.
They have zero power, they can't win elections.
Maybe that's why MoveOn MediaMatters BlackLivesMatter owner gave Ivankas husband 250,000,000 to use as he wants...

It's always about the money, even when they say it isnt.


----------



## Dave Connor (May 18, 2017)

Comey, who has maintained that he is apolitical and in service only to the law has now proven he is as political as it gets. By leaking that Trump asked him to drop the Flynn investigation he levels the most possible damage at Trump but when he testifies he cannot say he thought that it was obstruction of justice intent. The reason is that He will then be subject to indictment for not reporting it. Is anyone surprised though? His anti-Clinton move right before election day was breath-taking and historic really. Obama probably wanted to fire him the next day.

I've thought a special prosecutor was needed on the Russian thing for a very long time now simply because so many Democrats wanted it and they're entitled after all the Clinton investigating.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 19, 2017)

Chim, would you say the ACA is about the money? I mean, yeah, a single-payer system would be ideal, but do you think the reason the Democrats fought so hard for it was to line their pockets vs. what we had before?


----------



## chimuelo (May 21, 2017)

It's always about the money Nick, even when they say it isn't.
Remember when Nebraska Senator was offered all seniors in his state exempt if he voted yes.
Pelosi would instruct DNC to not fund any Democrat voting no.
Lobbyists wrote the law, CEOs got record salaries...
How is that not about the money?
Check out Pelosis own district where more exemptions from businesses were granted than anywhere else.
This has given Liberals the party of the wealthy appearance, not to mention hundreds of thousands to sit with a Clinton during fundraisers.
Crony Capitalists calling others who are successful greedy...
I am exempted until 2018 and that's because we buy Liberals.

Due to the timing of that exemption I predict here and now no changes to the ACA until 2018.
I base this on electoral timing.
Why take a win now when you can time it for elections a year from now.

The biggest reason why Trumps supporters are so behind him is because he spent his money, and doesn't owe anyone legislative favors.
They really believe they are represented.
Even the establishment GOP is worried about Trump and play along as they fear his middle class party could bring in another 20 million people who never vote.

This is a 3rd Party takeover of the corrupted 2 party system.
Joe Liebermans return seems to add to that perception too.

The Middle East tour is a sign to how this guy thinks.
Even with Trump it's all about the money.
But millions believe he fights for their money...

I think he's got a shot at doing some great stuff.
Why would I want the pilot of my plane to crash?
I was glad I supported Obama.
Gave him the benefit of the doubt everytime.
His choices helped set the chessboard now.
We know Russia NKorea Syria and Iran took advantage of Obamas kindness, thought it was weakness.
No confusion on who wants the West broken and destroyed.

A good cop/ bad cop scenario played out well.


----------



## chimuelo (May 21, 2017)

Right now I am watching Trump speak to 50 Muslim nations.
Wonder if their translators are being genuine.
The faces of leaders as the camera pans is priceless.


----------



## woodsdenis (May 21, 2017)

chimuelo said:


> Right now I am watching Trump speak to 50 Muslim nations.
> Wonder if their translators are being genuine.
> The faces of leaders as the camera pans is priceless.


They are just shocked that Americans can be so stupid as to elect such an idiot, confirms to them that the power to elect governments shouldn't be the the hands of the people. Saudis loved it after he blames Iran for the worlds troubles, even after Iran has elected a moderate leader recently.


----------



## Johnny42 (May 21, 2017)

chimuelo said:


> It's always about the money Nick, even when they say it isn't.
> Remember when Nebraska Senator was offered all seniors in his state exempt if he voted yes.
> Pelosi would instruct DNC to not fund any Democrat voting no.
> Lobbyists wrote the law, CEOs got record salaries...
> ...


Are you forgetting about the Mercers. They invested a great deal of money on Trump's campaign.


----------



## chimuelo (May 21, 2017)

Mercer probably won the race by his involvement.
So a little more than an investor.
Hes got plans to protect our secrets rather than sell them.


----------



## Dave Connor (May 21, 2017)

woodsdenis said:


> They are just shocked that Americans can be so stupid as to elect such an idiot, confirms to them that the power to elect governments shouldn't be the the hands of the people. Saudis loved it after he blames Iran for the worlds troubles, even after Iran has elected a moderate leader recently.


Actually the Trump phenomenon is not so easily explained. The American people were tired of being treated like they were idiots by BOTH political establishments (hence both Trump and Bernie Sanders.) They were being asked to vote for another Clinton or Bush (think about that.) So many of them deliberately rolled the dice on someone as goofy as Donald Trump. That's an indictment of Washington, not the Americans who voted for him. Sure Trump is far worse than people imagined but it's the system that has failed here. It has failed the people of the US. The hope is that a new type of politician comes out of this chaos. Truly transparent and truly representative of the people and not special interests. Instead of the status quo, our system is being shaken to it's core. Maybe that's the best thing - it often is in any aspect of life. Time will tell.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 21, 2017)

What Chim says:



> Pelosi would instruct DNC to not fund any Democrat voting no.
> Lobbyists wrote the law, CEOs got record salaries...
> How is that not about the money?



What I hear:



> bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla



The reason they fought the battle against moneyed interests and did the best they could isn't about money, it's about getting healthcare for people who need it.

When Democrats are in power, 20 million more people get health coverage. When Republicans are in power, tens of thousands of poor people are murdered to fund tax cuts for the rich.

That's why I hate them so much. They are disgusting perverts.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 21, 2017)

Dave:



> The American people were tired of being treated like they were idiots by BOTH political establishments



Those aren't The American People, they're 60+ million ignorant, racist white assholes who happen to live here. They proved they're idiots.

Please don't spew bothsidesism on my internet!


----------



## Dave Connor (May 21, 2017)

Even if your descriptions are true Nick, where were all the intelligent people? Too dumb to drive to the polls? Clinton should have won in a landslide. She lost Obama voters (the intelligent voters who got stupid and racist within 8 years after voting for a bright black guy.) No, there's a failure in this equation. Bernie Sanders supporters are still furious at their side of the establishment. That would still be true if a main stream Republican had won the nomination.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 21, 2017)

Dave, gerrymandering and voter suppression explain a lot. Bernie Supporters who still think he would have won without interference from the DNC are irrational.

And yes, Txxxx stirred up racism. He made it okay to give in to base instincts. That's what rabble-rousers do - it's the definition of "demagogue."

The failures are in our education system, our press, and above all in the money in our elections. And in some people who knew what they were doing was wrong.


----------



## chimuelo (May 21, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> The failures are in our education system, our press, and above all in the money in our elections. And in some people who knew what they were doing was wrong.



In other words the failure is Liberals.
I totally agree.
They've ruined the education system by forced indoctrination, but let's be real.
They ruined it for poor and middle class people.
The people who created loans and free school don't send their kids there.
And the Clinton Foundation rewards free college to fellow wealthy Liberals kids like Wasserman-Schultz for lying, cheating, etc.

The press works fantastically for wealthy Liberal billionaires that own it.
Their believers copy/paste Parrots for further dis information purposes.
But yes, for the people, it's a failure as it leads one to believe they are informed..

And some people knew what they were doing was wrong, but wealthy Liberals know there's no accountability, so do as they say, not as they do, or you might be building Solar Panels for them for 1.28 an hour, in dark places where gender awareness is learned the hard way.

Sad that the GOP will fix the failed Liberal health care system, remove criminals from Liberal neighborhoods, and give working honest undocumented people a pathway to citizenship.

Guess I support racism.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 21, 2017)

chim, you are officially cray-cray.


----------



## chimuelo (May 21, 2017)

No argument there.


----------



## chimuelo (May 21, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Dave:
> Those aren't The American People, they're 60+ million ignorant, racist white assholes who happen to live here. They proved they're idiots.
> Please don't spew bothsidesism on my internet!



You'd be shocked at how many of the 60,000,000 Racists you claim to have been "informed" about are mixed race, Asian, Hispanic and Black.
This may be a shock to indoctrinated white Liberals, but lots of us darker folks really don't need to them to be offended for us.

I know the NYTimes tells you we are lost and suffering, Clintons say we're needy, but please,....stop helping us.
We don't need free stuff, just tax the wealthy, they'd be happy to help Liberal voters overcome the barriers created by Liberal Leaders....


----------



## NYC Composer (May 21, 2017)

I'd like to slap every Bernie supporter who didn't go to the polls. Then I'd like to kick Jill Stein's ass.

Still, gotta love the narrative. 60 million ignorant racist assholes, no other discussion required.

It's certainly not going to be that way in Batzdorfia!


----------



## chimuelo (May 22, 2017)

No need to read the NYTimes.
I can check in here and see what the Mexican billionaire tells his pinche Wedos to think for that particular day.
Spread the hate, it's all that's left, sure don't have a leader except for American Indian Author/Professor/Senator Warren and the Rock.
I can already see promises of free stuff for everyone and how it sucks being rich.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 22, 2017)

NYC C, you left out white - ignorant racist *white* assholes.


----------



## NYC Composer (May 22, 2017)

Sorry Nick B-I try to avoid all
racial rhetoric. I should have quoted you accurately.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 22, 2017)

Calling out racists is racial rhetoric?

It's not hyperbole: over 60 million so-called Americans voted for a racist demagogue pig. Voting for that - whether or not you use the word "overlooked" as an excuse - is moral perversion.

Or maybe I'm giving those white assholes too much credit when I say every one of them knew better and did it anyway. Maybe they're all ignorant.


----------



## NYC Composer (May 22, 2017)

Or maybe there were factors other than racism and ignorance.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 22, 2017)

And, not or.

Of course there were, but the bottom line is that there's NO excuse for what they've done to our country.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 22, 2017)

Racism and ignorance are the bottom line, in other words. If you think your grievances are more important than everyone else's, you share that with terrorists and fuck you.


----------



## Soundhound (May 22, 2017)

There is one reason and one reason only that people voted for Trump. Fox News. Roger Ailes spoon fed millions of people fascist fearful bullshit for the last two decades. He took the lie of trickle down, expanded on it and has created an electorate completely impervious to facts. Unless something is done about it, these idiots will continue to vote directly against their own interests.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 22, 2017)

Well, Faux News created the environment. But there's a lot of blame to go around. The real news talked about nothing but the email server for months, while giving Txxxx free publicity with every offensive thing he said.

And the Russians fed the narrative, but the nail in the nation's coffin was the Comey outrage.

Republicans truly suck.


----------



## chimuelo (May 22, 2017)

One other thing to consider.
The media is despised for their collusion with the DNC, with fake polls, and now with missing statues of MLK and endless division promoted by the parrots of Liberal billionaires.

The disdain is so high that I can see voting against any candidate they promote for years to come.

When you forget your real role as "Journalist" and have no story unless it's promoting a certain bought and paid for Liberal, or a leak (which I believe are purposely used to distract Sheep) you are not worth listening to.

Series ratings at ABC, NBC and CBS are lower than expected, Twitter is at an all time high.
NFL belongs to Fox and ESPN now.

Some folks just never learn...


----------



## NYC Composer (May 22, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> And, not or.
> 
> Of course there were, but the bottom line is that there's NO excuse for what they've done to our country.


"Those aren't The American People, they're 60+ million ignorant, racist white assholes who happen to live here. They proved they're idiots."

Really, why bother with nuance or complexity when you can just boil things down to the simplest equation and go with that 100%?


----------



## Soundhound (May 22, 2017)

Absolutely, plenty of blame to go around. Mainstream media is guilty of chasing ratings, turning the nightly news into tabloid journalism, abdicating their essential role as the fourth estate.

But there is a difference. Fox News is pure, unadulterated right wing propaganda. It is not news. Ailes' whole concept was that he could sell opinion as news, because it cost less to produce. He put ken dolls and bimbos in cocktail dresses behind desks, used bright primary colors, and hired no reporters. This is the same monster who sold Richard Nixon to the American people as a seasoned, responsible statesman.

Now he has saddled the country with millions of people who cannot tell the difference between lies and facts. What's to be done about it? I have no idea. But I am so very glad he's dead.




Nick Batzdorf said:


> Well, Faux News created the environment. But there's a lot of blame to go around. The real news talked about nothing but the email server for months, while giving Txxxx free publicity with every offensive thing he said.
> 
> And the Russians fed the narrative, but the nail in the nation's coffin was the Comey outrage.
> 
> Republicans truly suck.


----------



## NYC Composer (May 22, 2017)

Let me get this straight. MSNBC gives out the pure, unadulterated objective fact-based news?

Look, I agree. Fox is a propaganda arm. Problem is, on MSNBC every rainbow issue is expanded to a matter of outrage.

Here's the problem-by aping the idiotic biased "news reporting" of Fox and presenting the opposing views in hysterical terms, progressive media is becoming equally non-credible.


----------



## Soundhound (May 22, 2017)

Ailes' idea was to deliver opinion as news, without the cost of a news organization, creating a far greater profit margin, no need to hire reporters and all the considerable expenses of a news organization. Its far right wing message dovetailed perfectly with the hysterical rumor mongering of Rush Limbaugh et. al. that infests right wing radio. Air America, and then later MSNBC was created in response to this, filling a vacuum that existed, presenting the opposing viewpoint.

But drawing an equivalence between the two isn't just inaccurate, it plays directly into Fox's duplicitous hands. MSNBC is staffed by many of the same pool of people who work at the New York Times, PBS, Washington Post, WSJ, the Atlantic, and the 3 major networks. It is informed by and participates in the gathering of news. The network absolutely has a point of view and expresses it as such, it does not present itself as a news organization. Without it there would be no counterweight to Fox.


----------



## NYC Composer (May 22, 2017)

See, I don't think it's just me drawing an equivalence. 

I knew people in NYC at Air America when it was on. Rachel came out of Air America, as did Al Franken. Air America was very specific in its resolve to present the progressive point of view to counter right wing talk radio. It's not like they appeared out of thin air.

I'm a progressive. It's time we (progressives) took more responsibility than "the bad guys won because they're evil." They won this thing but we lost it as well, and we had better get better at stuff.


----------



## Soundhound (May 22, 2017)

I don't disagree at all. I was listening to Air America when it was first on and was a Rachel fan. Also a fan of the woman who had been in the army and is a lawyer as well, can't remember her name. I think she's on radio somewhere still, funny as hell, smart and didn't take any shit...just looked it up, Randi Rhodes.

And yes the left needs to get better. The democrats need to be proposing fixes to the ACA, pushing for election reform, there's still so much that's not getting done because people are focused on not getting primaried etc. If they would just speak up, people would hear them, and vote for them.

But it's nothing, nothing at all compared to what's going on on the right. The modern right wing devolved to the point that Donald Trump was elected president. An obviously irresponsible and incompetent charismatic is president of the united states. He never would have had an audience if not for Fox News. He was depraved enough to see an opportunity and ran with it.

The fact that Bernie Sanders was able to get a national audience by talking about real progressive, substantive changes that need to happen, and Donald Trump was able to get a national audience by playing to people's basest instincts and feats, does of course speak to the fact that the system has devolved to the point that people are genuinely sick and tired of getting screwed.

But the shorter distance, the easy answer, the more comforting point of view is always what fascists will propose. Donald Trump isn't the problem, he's a symptom. A symptom that could cause the death of the democracy, but a symptom nonetheless.

The modern republican party is the problem. Mitch McConnel, Paul Ryan, Orin Hatch, Jason Chaffetz, Sean Hannity, Jeff Sessions, Newt Gingrich, the tea party republicans (freedom caucus) THEY are the problem. Their agenda is cynical and disastrous. Texas is right now in the process of passing a law that will make religious discrimination legal—it will be legal to refuse adoption to non-Christians.

It is absolutely happening here. And to equivocate is to be okay with it. I'm not fucking ok with it.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 22, 2017)

> See, I don't think it's just me drawing an equivalence



It's not just you, but I still think the equivalence is totally false. 

There are liberal commentators and there are conservative ones. That doesn't make them all propagandists by definition, or for that matter *any* of them propagandists. We're not talking about commentators, we're talking about very real propaganda.

"The G.O.P., by contrast, is one branch of a monolithic structure, movement conservatism, with a rigid ideology — tax cuts for the rich above all else. Other branches of the structure include a captive media that parrots the party line every step of the way. Compare the coverage of recent political developments on Fox News with almost everywhere else; we’re talking North Korea levels of alternative reality." - Paul Krugman, put extremely well in his editorial last week.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/19/...n=latest&contentPlacement=2&pgtype=collection


----------



## NYC Composer (May 22, 2017)

Too bad Krugman can't quote Batzdorf.

"According to a careful study, Nck Batzdorf of BATZMEDIA INC. has concluded that "the election was determined by 60 million ignorant white racist a..holes." I concur with Mr. Batzdorf's assessment though I deplore his language."


----------



## Soundhound (May 23, 2017)

We all go a little overboard at times. I would remind the jury that Donald Trump has been elected president of the united states. To anyone with a sense of history and an appreciation of the promise of the American Experiment, that fact is profoundly insulting and alarming.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 23, 2017)

Larry, if you think that what MSNBC reports is overly alarmist, you're not watching what's going on.

Same if you think my opinions are lacking subtlety. You're missing that a lot of people lack the character you and I take for granted.

Buy the way, have you seen Txxxx's budget proposal? It cuts Medicaid by half in the final year! By HALF!


----------



## NYC Composer (May 23, 2017)

Nick, I don't think that what MSNBC reports is overly alarmist. I think it's heavily biased towards a progressive agenda. The fact that I too am heavily biased towards the same does not make me blind. MSNBC was an offshoot of Air America, which was literally set up as a counterweight to conservative talk radio (I repeat myself here just in case you skipped over my other posts.)

Yes, I saw his 800 billion dollars in cuts. Disgusting.

"Lacking character"-hmmm. Dunno if the unemployed white factory worker trying to raise 3 kids in Michigan is necessarily lacking character. It's not as simple as you make it out. This country is going through the death throes of its previous economy. People are constantly in conflict about government. On the one hand, they want government to fix their problems, on the other hand they're deeply suspicious that their pockets are being picked.

Yes, there's plenty of racism and ignorance out there. There's also a self satisfied white liberal elite ruling class who wouldn't know poverty or privation if it bit them in the ass, yet they like to lecture to middle and rural America as if they were right down in the trenches.

We have some things to fix on our end if we want to effectively combat this coming monstrosity. You say "them them them...", I say "yeah, them them them-but us too."

Hillary played it safe. She expected a coronation. We thought so too. Now we know.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 23, 2017)

Larry, the unemployed white factory voter is not the main guy who elected this disgusting pig. It's people just above the bottom who resent their perceived loss of status and who live nowhere near the people they wanted Txxxx to be cruel to.

And I'm sorry, the "liberal elitist" stuff is just self-loathing bullshit. The people in the bubble are the white assholes.

Also, who thought Hillary was going to be coronated? The polls said she was going to win, and anyone who isn't an asshole voted for her, but Comey took care of that once and for all.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 23, 2017)

I will say that there's an undead Sanders Swaggart zombie liberal bubble. Those are the people who worship at the altar of St. Bernard and still hate Hillary for purely emotional reasons (a quasi-relative of mine did vote for her, but said she didn't like her - because she didn't like her outfits!).

That's certainly not all Sanders supporters! But that group certainly exists, and they piss me off no end. One way to identify them is that the only story of the stolen emails is the evil DNC rigging the election; there's nothing to the Russian collusion investigations.


----------



## NYC Composer (May 23, 2017)

Take a look at the number of educated white women who voted for Trump. Tell me why. Take a look at Ohio, Michigan, Pennsylvania. Tell me why.

Then look at Sanders supporters who didn't vote for Hillary. Then look at the odious Jill Stein voters. Tell me why. 

Ignorance-not just for conservatives anymore!


----------



## Soundhound (May 23, 2017)

Because they were raised on the lie of trickle down economics. That's why.


----------



## Soundhound (May 23, 2017)

To say that that is like comparing apples and oranges, is to ignore the significant similarities between apples and oranges. 

Overzealous Jill Stein voters and lefty never-Hillary voters were reacting to the corporate takeover of, and rampant corruption of the government. Bernie Sanders would have tried to fight that fight. 

Trump voters were reacting to their perceived disenfranchisement, to some degree caused by real economic change, and to some degree caused by social change which they resent (racism). Trump never had any intention of doing anything about the former, and cynically played on their fears of the second to get elected.

Hardly equivalent.



NYC Composer said:


> Ignorance-not just for conservatives anymore!


----------



## NYC Composer (May 23, 2017)

Everybody who didn't vote or voted for Moronstein helped elect Trump. Not ignorant to you? We disagree.


----------



## Soundhound (May 23, 2017)

Nice and tidy Larry, but that's not what I said. What I did say was falling for conspiracy theories that result in overzealous allegiance to Bernie Sanders and falling for the selfish, ignorant, hateful ideas pushed by Donald Trump are not, in any way, equivalent. The end result, sadly, is the same. But the path is not the same. And to suggest that it is, is to lump the two groups together, giving the fascists more fodder for their guns. I understand the impulse, but it's short sighted and self defeating.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 23, 2017)

Jill Naderstein is yet another candidate who proved she was unsuited for the office by running for it.

http://theweek.com/speedreads/664953/jill-stein-officially-2016s-ralph-nader

And it's true that the right doesn't have a lock on stupidity, just a 99:1 advantage.


----------



## NYC Composer (May 23, 2017)

Really?

If the lefties who didn't vote or voted for some alternative had voted for the far better alternative, we'd be sittin' around criticizing President Hillary for being too hawkish.

But I guess that was the 1% of ignorant lefties. Right.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 23, 2017)

I'm not defending anyone who didn't vote for Hillary, believe me.

And we might well be criticizing her for being too hawkish, but we wouldn't be criticizing her for not having weighed a decision from all angles before making it. I don't have to agree with every decision a politician makes, I just want to know they have the interests of the American people at heart - which I don't get from a single Republican anymore.

Reagan did in his mind, but was a total dope who laid the groundwork for all the problems we're facing today (because he opened the floodgates to money taking over everything). Bush 1 did a very good job of managing the collapse of the Soviet empire, for example.

What Republican cares about the country today? They just want to funnel as much wealth as possible to the top. On a slight tangent - or really not on a tangent - Lawrence O'Donnell pointed out the other day that the calibre of the House Republicans is a lot lower than it was during Watergate. They held sincere beliefs in those days, rather than taking the job to leave and join K street (lobbying).

He would know, because he worked for Patrick Moynihan in those days.


----------



## NYC Composer (May 23, 2017)

I was really confused about "K Street" before you cleared it up for me. Thanks.

My point about "criticizing Hillary for being too hawkish" was- an adult would be in office!

Man, I hate being treated as if I'm stupid. To reiterate a former position, please re-fuck yourself.


----------



## Soundhound (May 23, 2017)

It's just that regarding the two extremes as two sides of the same coin that's misguided I think. The right wing is destroying this country. The far left may over react from time to time, but it's inconsequential. Except when equivalency is drawn between the far left and the far right (which is now just known as the right wing). It allows the right to reduce real, critically important arguments to the platitude of 'can't we all just get along'. No, we can't. When the party in power has no regard for law, no regard for civil rights, we cannot just get along. 

Take the right wing's whining about political correctness. It's nonsense. Safe spaces and intolerance of racists and fascists may not be taking the high road and turning the cheek, but in the face of real threats to democracy and civil liberties, I have no problem with it. At all. 




NYC Composer said:


> Really?
> 
> If the lefties who didn't vote or voted for some alternative had voted for the far better alternative, we'd be sittin' around criticizing President Hillary for being too hawkish.
> 
> But I guess that was the 1% of ignorant lefties. Right.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 23, 2017)

I'm not limber enough to re-fuck myself, in fact I couldn't do it the first time when I tried - much to my disappointment, because I find myself extremely attractive.


----------



## NYC Composer (May 23, 2017)

So the far left overreacted and left us with Bozo. 

I have never drawn an equivalence, goddamnit. I'm saying that we need to clean up our yard. That should be patently obvious.


----------



## Soundhound (May 23, 2017)

It's not. The left overreacting did not cause the idiot to be elected. 20 years of Fox News and right wing radio elected Donald Trump, plain and simple. End of story. 

Did the factions on the left siphon off votes and make it easier for Trump to win? Of course, yes. Does the left need to be better organized, more focused, smarter and more resourceful, fuck yes. But democracy is a goddamn mess, that's how it is, that's how it works, that's kind of the idea - the free discussion of ideas. 

All I'm saying Larry is we can't lose sight of the real problem. It's the right wing. It is a clear and present danger, an existential threat, fighting the religious fanatics/racists/primitives/corrupt corporate hucksters and toadies that ARE the republican party is the fight. The other shit doesn't matter, not even a tiny little bit. These crazy motherfuckers are so depraved they are fine, FINE with Donald Trump being president. All hands on deck, and fire the guns at the criminals who are in power. Don't worry about Jill Stein voters for chrissake, there aren't that many of them to begin with.


----------



## chimuelo (May 23, 2017)

Ted Cruz will be replacing a retiring judge this summer.
In 2018 Liberals will lose at least 12 more seats.
So yuze guys got 2019 to find somebody other than another lying Liberal.
Good luck with that.

When everything you pass is a lie, everything you stand for is a lie, it's tough to find somebody the folks believe.
How about Chelsea?


----------



## Soundhound (May 23, 2017)

And... Jimmy is back with peyote for everybody!


----------



## chimuelo (May 23, 2017)

Hey SHound I'm in Atlanta btw.
Closest Mexican Consulate to me.
Going to White Waters water park tomorrow. Unless it keeps raining.
Never saw so many Trump billboards before.
You must feel right at home here....


----------



## Soundhound (May 23, 2017)

No way!? I'm not in Atl, we're about 1/2 south in Peachtree City. Drive a couple miles into the country from here and there were Trump lawns in front of every other house. Compared to where I am Atlanta is Berkeley! There were Hillary for prison signs on our street. My Bernie 2016 hat went over big at the local Krogers. 

How long are you here for? Are you playing in town? Should we go to a young republicans meeting? Maybe just a beer...?


----------



## chimuelo (May 23, 2017)

No gig. Have to renew passports for a few in my crew.
I'm a farmer until DuPont takes over.
During probate I had to cover salaries, feed, fuel, etc.
I ain't cut out for this so trying to keep the same crew, lease everything and collect a check.
Hopefully we'll be done by 1pm, and hopefully I can move back to Nevada.
Had my share of Tornados and Rain. I'm a Desert brat...


----------



## chimuelo (May 24, 2017)

Well Atlanta is definitely a blast.
Two teachers beat the shit out of each other in front of students.
Great role models. It's a free shitty Union school so teachers will keep their jobs.

The traffic still sucks from a crackhead who burned down a bridge.

Consulate agreed to see all of my crew at once instead of consecutive 30 minute briefings.
Back home before Dinner.
Rainy ass crappy weather.
Great waffles at La Quinta though.
Badda book, Badda boom......


----------



## Dave Connor (May 24, 2017)

Hillary needed some of those 60 million racists, mfer, pig, voters. Her strategy was to insult them. So this is not a Jeffersonian intellect at work here. Not even William Jefferson Clinton. So she's dumber than the dumb, racist, pig, asshole, white, scum, dimwitted, voters she needed. She was too dumb for even them!! What does that say about the Democratic establishment who put her up? Or the press that fawned over her? (The press that apologized for their abysmal coverage of the election. Well, some of the little rags apologized anyway - like the New York Times.) Consider this: the press avoided the exact constituency that Hillary did. How is that for lock step with a candidate? OK so Fox news is right wing (there's a headline for you.) Hillary had everybody else except for right wing radio (same Fox crowd) and she still lost! Folks! There's a problem in River City! Two incredibly flawed candidates ran for president. Both with clear pathologies in their personalities. The fact remains that the Democrats ran a candidate that couldn't beat a game-show host! Sounds like a punchline because it is. Is it the 60 million's fault or the handful of elites who thought they could stick those millions of Americans with someone who openly expressed her contempt for them and still get their vote. The political class in this country on both sides is a mess.


----------



## Soundhound (May 24, 2017)

The problems on the left and the problems on the right are both real, pressing and need to be dealt with. But they are in no way comparable.

Nobody ever accused Hillary Clinton of being a good politician. Nobody said that the democrats don't participate in the corporatization of government. Nobody said that the democrats are sticking to their guns and fighting for what they believe in. What has been said, and what is true, is that the problem with the democrats is they don't stick to their guns, they are taking corporate money, just like the republicans, and the party machine plays favorites. 

Comparing that, however, in any way, to the intellectually bankrupt ideas, fascist ideology, outright criminality and profound immorality of the modern right wing, is ridiculous. The left wing is politics and money as usual, and needs to, and can be taken on. The right wing poses a real and present danger to the health and safety of the people. I have no idea how it can be fought, with millions of people supporting it who have been brainwashed.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 24, 2017)

^ Incredibly false equivalence (Dave's post).

She needed 70,000 people in three gerrymandered, voter-supressed states to come out and vote.

The "political class" has nothing to do with anything. Political persuasion using false promises is nothing to admire.

There was a propaganda narrative about Hillary being corrupt. It was and still is a completely disgusting lie, perpetuated by 24/7 propaganda, almost certainly helped by the fucking Russians, picked up by Sanders Swaggart zombies, and the nail in our country's coffin was Comey's outrage.

The game show host/serial sexual assaulter/con man who should be in jail/asshole/piece of shit/racist/demagogue lied through his combination ass/mouth about how he was going to solve every problem. He gave people permission to blame others who don't look like them for all the problems of the world. His spectacularly lousy taste is what stupid people think is success. He must be incredibly smart if he can afford all that gold, so of course he'll re-open coal mines, solve the problems of globalization, and give us much better healthcare for far less money.

The media swarmed like flies to shit at every one of his violence-inciting racist rallies, publicized every one of his offensive remarks repeatedly, and cared about nothing but the ratings they got by covering his train wrecks. The non-story about Hillary's fucking email server was all the coverage she got.

Hillary wasn't an exciting candidate, just an extremely capable and experienced one with detailed, sound policy proposals across the board. She's extremely bright.

So it's the Democrats' and political elite's fault that 60+ million Americans don't deserve to live in the same country with elite people like me? And yes, I'm proud to be a member of the elite, joined by most people. We're better than Txxxx voters, because we have morals, we understand the value of hard-earned knowledge and ability, and we don't think it's okay to vote for the biggest fucking asshole in the country just because we have grievances.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 24, 2017)

Put another way: the problem is with the voters, not the Democrats.


----------



## Dave Connor (May 24, 2017)

Soundhound said:


> The problems on the left and the problems on the right are both real, pressing and need to be dealt with. But they are in no way comparable.
> 
> Nobody ever accused Hillary Clinton of being a good politician. Nobody said that the democrats don't participate in the corporatization of government. Nobody said that the democrats are sticking to their guns and fighting for what they believe in. What has been said, and what is true, is that the problem with the democrats is they don't stick to their guns, they are taking corporate money, just like the republicans, and the party machine plays favorites.
> 
> Comparing that, however, in any way, to the intellectually bankrupt ideas, fascist ideology, outright criminality and profound immorality of the modern right wing, is ridiculous. The left wing is politics and money as usual, and needs to, and can be taken on. The right wing poses a real and present danger to the health and safety of the people. I have no idea how it can be fought, with millions of people supporting it who have been brainwashed.


I wasn't accusing Hillary of being a good politician. I was pointing out how incredibly stupid it was for her to ignore the voters she needed. If that was her only mistake she may have still won. But she openly voiced her contempt for the voters she needed. How can you expect a candidate for dog catcher to win with a fatal self-wound like that? I emphasize again, that kind of elitism coupled with supreme stupidity is going to register with people. Just as Trump's stupidity registers in the 24 hr., news cycle. That's our system right now: broken.

You are voicing the position of the far left with fascisim and criminality on the other side, which of course the far right does exactly with the left. The American people have never been generally on either extreme. Like Hillary, you are marginalizing and accusing middle America which is a losing strategy, (also unscientific and flawed since Obama supporters fled from Clinton.) You are also making the moral argument, which is fundamentally a religious argument - another calling card of the far left. That just isn't going to fly with those who believe in religious liberty: they want separation, not to be accused of immorality by the state (or you or I.) The health and welfare of the American people are a concern of the American people who want health care for everyone. They will vote accordingly and many Republicans are nervous about it.

My point is in defense of the American people; not the parties or political extremes. The election of the left leaning Obama was entirely predictable after 8 years of Bush. Remember the memes of Obama as Hitler? That's the Far Right freaking out at a Socialist or Communist or whatever. After 8 years of moving toward the Left the country is now moving back toward the Right which is now Facist or Nazi according to the Far Left that are freaking out. Trump is unique and troublesome to people all along the entire political spectrum and it is understandable that people are freaking out at HIM. I do not defend him and never have. I just get the revulsion of the American people at our present two-party system and voting the single other choice they had.


----------



## Dave Connor (May 24, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> ^ Incredibly false equivalence (Dave's post).
> 
> She needed 70,000 people in three gerrymandered, voter-supressed states to come out and vote.


Nick, Hillary had the support of a very popular president who did everything he could do to get her elected. She should have won by millions. She couldn't squeak by Donald Trump? She either had a strategy to guarantee she would lose (insulting the very people she needed - like the Obama supporters who were undecided) or she was Trumpian in not being able to control her tongue and letting out what she truly felt about the electorate. I would much sooner blame the Democrat establishment than the American people. The Republican establishment did everything they could to stop Trump.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 24, 2017)

We'll both have to agree to disagree with you and agree with me.


----------



## Dave Connor (May 24, 2017)

Here's another reminder about the pitiful Clinton campaign. When they finally realized (way too late) that she needed to speak about her accomplishments rather than the single strategy of just attacking Trump, what did she mention? Her working with children immediately after graduating from college. (You can't make this stuff up folks.) She had just finished a term as Sec of State, with eight years in the White House and previous presidential run prior. She had to back before all that to point to her accomplishments. Why? What could she say? "How did you like that cute red reset button I brought to my Russian counterpart? How did you like the lesson I took away from the Bush Iraq policy of deposing a strongman? I thought we should do it again in Libya! Except no U.S. troops! That way you have an Al Qaeda infested failed state on day 2!

Folks, this rose colored view of what was just offered the American people has to end or history will repeat. I mention it because there is so much self righteous indignation toward the American people as if either party isn't a blithering mess.


----------



## Dave Connor (May 24, 2017)

Nick, you will have to forgive my equal opportunity bashing of both parties. The Republicans presented themselves as the mature thoughtful fixers of all things Obama when he was in office and then dropped everything to the floor upon taking power. All talk and not even a basic understanding of governing. Pitiful and hypocritical. I'm sure many of us wished we had the steadier hand of Obama right now just for some stability. But Trump's chaos and even eventual impeachment might be what this country needs if Washington refuses to identify with the people who put them in office.


----------



## Soundhound (May 24, 2017)

I understand and share the anger at what the two party system has become. 
But your post is emblematic of just how far to the right the country has moved. The reason Obama was elected was, as you say, a pushback after 8 years of George Bush. But it was no mere swing of the pendulum. Since Reagan the country has been moving steadily to the right, and the Bush administration was (until Trump) the culmination of that radical shift. What it resulted in was never ending war in the middle east due to the incompetence and adventurism of the administration, and the devastation of the economy due to right wing rampant deregulation. (Yes, Bill Clinton contributed mightily to that, I've said many times, that after getting his ass handed to him for trying to create a single payer system that he became essentially a Republican president.) The horror of right wing policies created an atmosphere in which a black man could be elected in what is still a deeply racist country. 

Once that happened, the right wing cynically coopted that devastating hatred, and rode it to success in the polls, using it as the emotional sell underlying their old and failed policies of deregulation and trickle down. The republican policies are not just misguided, they are ignorant, self serving, short sighted and guaranteed to cause terrible suffering and destruction. 

Modern republicans bear no resemblance to the republicans who participated in the watergate hearings, established the EPA, etc. The group in power is as dangerous as has ever held power in this country. 

Your drawing equivalence between the Obama as Hitler racist hysteria with the current outrage and deep concern about Trump and the republicans is to ignore the last 50 years of the country's history. It is to buy into the far right's attempts at false equivalence, and by doing so directly plays into their narrative. I do not think that Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell have the well being of the people at heart. Did you see Trey Gowdy's work today questioning Brennan? He is not trying to get at the truth, he is doing everything he can to cover up the truth. He, and every republican dragging their heels about the Trump campaign's felons are just as guilty as Trump and Flynn. There is not a Howard Baker or John Dean in the bunch. They are a menace. The republicans stole a seat on the supreme court, and they were able to do it because right wing radio and Fox News gave them a constituency outraged that a black man was president, and anything they did to return the country to the time before such a thing was possible, is not just ok, but righteous.

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-...trump&kwp_0=417912&kwp_4=1536872&kwp_1=667611









Dave Connor said:


> I wasn't accusing Hillary of being a good politician. I was pointing out how incredibly stupid it was for her to ignore the voters she needed. If that was her only mistake she may have still won. But she openly voiced her contempt for the voters she needed. How can you expect a candidate for dog catcher to win with a fatal self-wound like that? I emphasize again, that kind of elitism coupled with supreme stupidity is going to register with people. Just as Trump's stupidity registers in the 24 hr., news cycle. That's our system right now: broken.
> 
> You are voicing the position of the far left with fascisim and criminality on the other side, which of course the far right does exactly with the left. The American people have never been generally on either extreme. Like Hillary, you are marginalizing and accusing middle America which is a losing strategy, (also unscientific and flawed since Obama supporters fled from Clinton.) You are also making the moral argument, which is fundamentally a religious argument - another calling card of the far left. That just isn't going to fly with those who believe in religious liberty: they want separation, not to be accused of immorality by the state (or you or I.) The health and welfare of the American people are a concern of the American people who want health care for everyone. They will vote accordingly and many Republicans are nervous about it.
> 
> My point is in defense of the American people; not the parties or political extremes. The election of the left leaning Obama was entirely predictable after 8 years of Bush. Remember the memes of Obama as Hitler? That's the Far Right freaking out at a Socialist or Communist or whatever. After 8 years of moving toward the Left the country is now moving back toward the Right which is now Facist or Nazi according to the Far Left that are freaking out. Trump is unique and troublesome to people all along the entire political spectrum and it is understandable that people are freaking out at HIM. I do not defend him and never have. I just get the revulsion of the American people at our present two-party system and voting the single other choice they had.


----------



## Soundhound (May 24, 2017)

For the nth time. Clinton's desultory campaign isn't the problem. The problem is the segment of the electorate that has been sold on the right wing propaganda of Ronald Reagan, right wing radio and Fox News.

I have no rose colored glasses about her campaign. I voted for Bernie, and once that ship had sailed I voted for her. He should have been the candidate and maybe he would have won. The democrats need to see what happened last time and learn from it.

But again, that was politics as usual. What is happening on the right, which now has full control of the government, is not politics as usual. Drawing equivalence between the two makes absolutely no sense. It makes sense if you're Sean Hannity. It's genius if you're Sean Hannity and can pull it off. If you're not, it's a self inflicted, potentially lethal wound.



Dave Connor said:


> Here's another reminder about the pitiful Clinton campaign. When they finally realized (way too late) that she needed to speak about her accomplishments rather than the single strategy of just attacking Trump, what did she mention? Her working with children immediately after graduating from college. (You can't make this stuff up folks.) She had just finished a term as Sec of State, with eight years in the White House and previous presidential run prior. She had to back before all that to point to her accomplishments. Why? What could she say? "How did you like that cute red reset button I brought to my Russian counterpart? How did you like the lesson I took away from the Bush Iraq policy of deposing a strongman? I thought we should do it again in Libya! Except no U.S. troops! That way you have an Al Qaeda infested failed state on day 2!
> 
> Folks, this rose colored view of what was just offered the American people has to end or history will repeat. I mention it because there is so much self righteous indignation toward the American people as if either party isn't a blithering mess.


----------



## Dave Connor (May 24, 2017)

Well, I'm sure we feel as if we're making each other's points. A Kennedy Democrat form the 60's is a far right loon in the eyes of the Democratic Party now seems to me. Bill Clinton (not two decades out of office) had an immigration policy that is considered hateful by the left now. His speech (which his wife dare not echo) sounded more like Trump than Trump. So I don't see a steady move to the right. I would think most U.S. Historians consider there's been a steady march to the Left since Roosevelt. But a free society would naturally become more liberal as it matures and I think most Americans have welcomed that. The thing is, I don't think people that fall within the center circle of left and right are somehow awful human beings for being more comfortable there. To not understand them and their values but rather look down upon them is pure elitism from wherever it may come. It's not their fault they were given a terrible choice and may have simply voted thinking one candidate would give them a tax break and the other wouldn't. I think that's what happened actually.

The offering of Hillary as a candidate is emblematic of the establishment that supported her is my point about her and her campaign. Out of touch completely. As to the media, MSNBC is now on top and Fox failing. I don't see that as the Communists winning over the Nazi's. I give the American people more credit than that. Things even out and snap back as our system is designed to do. Just because the direction is in the opposite of the prior administration is not an indictment of the electorate. It is expected and predictable.


----------



## Soundhound (May 24, 2017)

Wow. Yes you and I are reading different history books altogether. Actually I'm old enough to have lived through much of it, so it's deeper than that. But you get my point.


----------



## Dave Connor (May 24, 2017)

You do recognize the massive expansion of the federal government and federal programs now into health care and myriad regulations etc? I'm not saying good or bad on that, I'm just saying it reflects a move to the left not to the conservative right. Throw in civil, handicapped, gay, woman's, environmental and other new rights and regulations and you have a list of liberal causes. Which as I said is expected from a free society but not would I would call a march to the Right.


----------



## Soundhound (May 24, 2017)

That is a misreading not incidentally, but directly out of Fox News talking points. As we get into this, I just want to make sure I'm not having a discussion with a Fox News viewer? It's really not worth it. If you read real newspapers etc. I'm good to continue!


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 24, 2017)

Dave, since Reagan we've had heavy *de*regulation, union-busting, far more money in politics and especially elections, a strong dollar policy, Clinton-era "welfare reform"... in general we've let money take over everything. Shipping our jobs overseas and putting our low-end workers in direct competition with third-world people who get paid a fraction of US wages certainly didn't help either.

That's created the inequality, wage stagnation, etc. that the right wants and the left absolutely doesn't want.

Sure, the ACA is a hybrid public/private healthcare financing system, and we're evolving socially (marriage equality, etc.). But in general the country has moved way over to the right, and I think you've picked an especially bad time to talk about swinging pendulums!


----------



## Dave Connor (May 24, 2017)

Fox news? No, mine is a historical viewpoint which as I mentioned goes back to Roosevelt. If your understanding of history predates Fox News by five or six decades we should be good.


----------



## Dave Connor (May 24, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Dave, since Reagan we've had heavy *de*regulation, union-busting, far more money in politics and especially elections, a strong dollar policy, Clinton-era "welfare reform"... in general we've let money take over everything. Shipping our jobs overseas and putting our low-end workers in direct competition with third-world people who get paid a fraction of US wages certainly didn't help either.


 I didn't see NAFTA as a right wing construct or a move to the right Nick. Statistically we have more regulation then ever and more bureaucracy to look into it. I was watching CSPAN @Soundhound (that's what I watch if that's okay) and military people were talking about lowering costs. When one of the three suggested polling the people with superfluous redundant jobs as to if they thought it was a good idea to cut back on them, the other two rolled their eyes. It's that kind of thing I'm talking about. Big Government at it's worst.

I agree on money in elections etc. None of this is above examination.


----------



## Soundhound (May 24, 2017)

Excellent, glad to hear! Where do you get your news currently? I generally look at NY Times, Washington Post, Economist, Atlantic New Yorker, PBS, NPR, Politico, The Hill, etc. etc. And you?




Dave Connor said:


> Fox news? No, mine is a historical viewpoint which as I mentioned goes back to Roosevelt. If your understanding of history predates Fox News by five or six decades we should be good.


----------



## Dave Connor (May 24, 2017)

@Soundhound, you do see the advent of Social Security as a move to the Left (as history does.) Eisenhower's warning of the Military Industrial Complex would also be a way of thinking favored by the left. John Kennedy's tax cuts to stimulate the economy a Nazi-Fascist play? Of course not. LBJ's Great Society spending and the war on poverty? Heck, Nixon created the EPA! That's not a march to the Right is it?


----------



## Dave Connor (May 24, 2017)

What are your sources for History since that's our present discussion? We can talk TV at some point but then we'll be forced to talk about Fox and cable news and that's a bit shallow for me.

You're not saying the source for your understanding of the Roosevelt Administration policies is Politico are you?


----------



## Soundhound (May 24, 2017)

Dave, where do you get your news? I'm up for any and all discussion, but not with a right wing conspiracy theorist! I'm not saying you are at all, but want to know your sources first. 

edit: CSPAN is a go for me too! I love that guy's face as he so politely listens to right wing nut job callers! 






Dave Connor said:


> @Soundhound, you do see the advent of Social Security as a move to the Left (as history does.) Eisenhower's warning of the Military Industrial Complex would also be a way of thinking favored by the left. John Kennedy's tax cuts to stimulate the economy a Nazi-Fascist play? Of course not. LBJ's Great Society spending and the war on poverty? Heck, Nixon created the EPA! That's not a march to the Right is it?


----------



## Dave Connor (May 24, 2017)

Hey I'm not kidding! If your knowledge of history doesn't go past the morning paper we are not going to be able to continue! (Just using your own foil against you.) I've told you that my perspective is my own own based upon history. My sources of news are very similar to yours actually but wider and that's as far as I'll go in dignifying your insult. You should be above that if you're of the age you claim.


----------



## Soundhound (May 24, 2017)

You are truly hilarious Dave, and treading perilously close to losing all credibility, 
if one's perspective is that a far right wing conspiracy theorist has no credibility of course. You are employing the Donald Trump/right wing 'I know you are but what I am I' strategy, which is always handy when avoiding an answer is desired. 

My knowledge of history comes from a desultory, decades old humanities education, and a lifetime of reading. My current reading isn't limited to the sources I listed, but that's where I go day to day. My cards are on the table. You, not so much. Are you going to list your sources as well, or hide behind a remarkably easily roused righteous indignation?

The ball is patiently and openly in your court. List where you get your news from and we can get into it!

$20 says you won't say. I lose bets all the time though! Hoping I do here as well.





Dave Connor said:


> Hey I'm not kidding! If your knowledge of history doesn't go past the morning paper we are not going to be able to continue! (Just using your own foil against you.) I've told you that my perspective is my own own based upon history. My sources of news are very similar to yours actually but wider and that's as far as I'll go in dignifying your insult. You should be above that if you're of the age you claim.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 24, 2017)

> I didn't see NAFTA as a right wing construct or a move to the right Nick.



Neither right nor left, and it probably had less effect than one would think.



> Statistically we have more regulation then ever and more bureaucracy to look into it.



"More" is to regulation and bureaucracy what "higher" is to a pair of pajamas. Of course laws are going to be added as times change.

The deregulation I was thinking of is mainly financial.

http://cepr.net/documents/publications/dereg-timeline-2009-07.pdf

But things like the airline deregulation are also part of it, just to name one example.

And the move to the right is in many areas, as I wrote above.


----------



## chimuelo (May 24, 2017)

A most excellent debate.
My fake news is better than your fake news.
All unpublished documents, or graphs and charts created for persuasion by federal employees relishing in their growth and security, so that data isn't credible.
I would like to see the list of 99% of Scientists who believe taxing fossil fuels will change Earths trajectory.
Surely with such a large consensus, there were awards given amongst themselves, some documentation of the list should exist....

Lefties need stuff, righties want stuff.
Us folks who work and pay for this Government should have a voice.
I want to help Liberals, and would be proud to continue helping as long as they agree to contribute something, or random drug tests.

I work harder to provide extra things for my family.
Why should I pay for someone who doesn't wish to do the same for theirs?
Can't the wealthy Liberals do this instead of buying Coal stocks, or funding riots?

Let's start over and hold auditions for the 50,000,000 victims.
At least that way I'm not funding some Lazy bums ruining things for Liberals that really need the help...


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 24, 2017)

> Why should I pay for someone who doesn't wish to do the same for theirs?



Because we're all in this together and you're not a selfish asshole.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 24, 2017)

And then there are the practical reasons.

You don't want people with untreated communicable diseases serving you at restaurants, for example, so we all have health insurance to pay into the pool.


----------



## Soundhound (May 24, 2017)

And.... Dave's not telling. Now if only I'd found someone to take that bet...


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 24, 2017)

Dave, here's another reason that counting regulations is meaningless as an isolated number. This is one that blocks labor unions!

http://bostonreview.net/forum/james-gray-pope-ed-bruno-peter-kellman-right-strike


----------



## Dave Connor (May 24, 2017)

Soundhound said:


> You are truly hilarious Dave, and treading perilously close to losing all credibility,
> if one's perspective is that a far right wing conspiracy theorist has no credibility of course. You are employing the Donald Trump/right wing 'I know you are but what I am I' strategy, which is always handy when avoiding an answer is desired.
> 
> My knowledge of history comes from a desultory, decades old humanities education, and a lifetime of reading. My current reading isn't limited to the sources I listed, but that's where I go day to day. My cards are on the table. You, not so much. Are you going to list your sources as well, or hide behind a remarkably easily roused righteous indignation?
> ...


So you didn't read my post? I answered your question in the main and identified it as the insult it is. What are you rambling on about with Trump and right wing conspiracies? No kidding, I'm not able to follow. I brought up a timeline of history starting with Roosevelt to which you brought up Fox News - hello? Who's not answering here? You're not. I'm not going to sidestep out of conversation to satisfy someone's bizarre need for their concept of credentials. If ten people did that with ten different criteria where would the conversation go? That's just strange man. What do you mean my cards aren't on the table? I've made the same point basically in every post here. Hiding what? By your own criteria you haven't answered my question about your sources of history - but my question was a joke. You haven't been able to answer it even in jest… _a lifetime of reading? _Oh so you read a lot of Right Wing conspiracies then. Employing your logic is torture my friend.


----------



## Soundhound (May 24, 2017)

Again and again and again you refuse to say where you get your news from. I can only assume you are up to your ears in right wing propaganda and know enough to be embarrassed by it. I answered your question, you have not answered mine. 

You should run for office as a republican, you would fit right in. In fact there's a seat in Montana currently looking for a republican candidate because the facsist running there just got caught body slamming a reporter for the Guardian into the ground when asked about today's CBO score of the republican health care plan. 

I'll ask one more time. Where do you get your news? Just say where you get your news, Dave! It's not that hard! But you won't do it. You will never do it. Ever. You're embarrassed by it. You are a coward.


----------



## Dave Connor (May 24, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> The deregulation I was thinking of is mainly financial.
> 
> http://cepr.net/documents/publications/dereg-timeline-2009-07.pdf
> .


 Well, people from all walks including me want Glass Steagall restored but that happened under the Democrats right? And American's aren't against regulation any more than they're against clean air and water. I'm just not going to view someone who isn't way out on the Left on every issue as some kind of backward yokel. Small business and startups have really taken it on the chin with regulations. We know about the exodus of businesses here in California. That's from the LA Times (for the news policeman here.) I also don't think the election of a Liberal Black President is a move to the right. Yes, Trump is a move to the Right but even he will not be able to stop the Liberal ideas that have taken hold. I'm saying this is all rather predictable but overall the U.S. has been moving to the left since Roosevelt. I'm not alone with that assessment and I honestly don't know where any of the cable channels stand on that. I know how it's been viewed at the time and over time by many people both left and right.


----------



## Dave Connor (May 24, 2017)

Soundhound said:


> Again and again and again you refuse to say where you get your news from. I can only assume you are up to your ears in right wing propaganda and know enough to be embarrassed by it. I answered your question, you have not answered mine.
> 
> You should run for office as a republican, you would fit right in. In fact there's a seat in Montana currently looking for a republican candidate because the facsist running there just got caught body slamming a reporter for the Guardian into the ground when asked about today's CBO score of the republican health care plan.
> 
> I'll ask one more time. Where do you get your news? Just say where you get your news, Dave! It's not that hard! But you won't do it. You will never do it. Ever. You're embarrassed by it. You are a coward.


Yes I get your whole assumption thing and how you disengage in conversation to do your litmus test. Never seen that before but it is the internet. My mistake.


----------



## Soundhound (May 24, 2017)

Dave all you have to do is say where you get your news. I told you where I get my news on the whole. You said you include those sources but you read 'much more widely'. I asked for you to spell that out, what are those sources, and what are your main sources for news? You won't do it. If I were reading what you must be reading I wouldn't either! 

Your call Dave. You can tell us where you get your news, or you can plead the 5th. If you won't tell us where you get your news, I'm not going to waste my time with someone who could be a right wing conspiracy theorist. If you do, we can continue!

Totally up to you. 

You won't do it.


----------



## NYC Composer (May 24, 2017)

The first rule of Fight Club is-don't watch Fox.

The second rule of Fight Club is-if you watch Fox, I won't debate you.

The third rule of Fight Club is-I'm right and you're wrong.


----------



## Soundhound (May 24, 2017)

First rule of fight club—tell everybody where you get your news.

Second rule of fight club—if you won't follow the first rule, you've probably got something to hide.


----------



## NYC Composer (May 24, 2017)

First rule of assholia-checking credentials at the door.


----------



## Soundhound (May 24, 2017)

First rule of chickenshititis, not saying how you arrived at your ideas.

Second rule of assholia, getting pissed off for no reason on the internet. I don't know what happened to you Larry, but somewhere along the line, you became kind of a prick. So before you can tell me to fuck off, let me break the ice! Fuck you Larry.


----------



## NYC Composer (May 24, 2017)

'k then. 

I'm not pissed off for no reason-I'm pissed off because of this-in my perfect liberal world, my progressive brethren shouldn't be hare-brained idealogues. They should defend their points of view without credential gathering, calling other people morons, assholes and the like, yanno-saying things that examine other points of view without insults, actual critical thinking and reasoned debate in promulgating points of view.

OR-we could just talk to people we agree with!

So sorry for interrupting your mutual fellate-fest. You and Nick carry on. Fuck me!


----------



## Soundhound (May 24, 2017)

Yes Larry, fuck you! Not to put too fine a point on it. If you think Nick and I are ideologues, that's totally fine. More power to you. But the idea of alleged 'credential gathering' is moronic. The internet is vast cesspool of disinformation, and I still have $20 says that Dave is gulping it up like tomato bisque.

Right wingers who have any semblance of intelligence always seem to do this, they know enough to know they are ingesting feel good garbage, and won't cop to it. All Dave has to do is tell us where he gets his news. And. He. Won't. Do. It.

Now go blow yourself Larry, Nick and I are busy.


----------



## NYC Composer (May 24, 2017)

"But the idea of alleged 'credential gathering' is moronic."

Agreed.


----------



## Soundhound (May 24, 2017)

Alleged, counselor. You didn't read the brief. Kasowitz level lawyering there, buddy.


----------



## Dave Connor (May 24, 2017)

As per my earlier and consistent points, here are my sources for the march toward the Left (which I do not disparage) - don't worry I will spell everything out with the bizarre assumptions going on from a certain quarter.

1. The Declaration of Independence. Perhaps the greatest liberal document devised by Man. (not remotely kidding here, this and what follows are indeed the references I had in mind.
2. The 13th Amendment: Abolition of Slavery
3. 19th Amendment: Women's vote.
4. The Social Security Act: Government assistance for the handicapped, ill and elderly.
5. The War On Poverty: An expansion of Government spending for education and health for the impoverished.
6. The Affordable Health Care Act: Healthcare provided for all U.S. citizens including those with pre-existing conditions. On this last example, the American people polled prior to it's passing showed 80% of the populace in favor. Keep that in mind the next time you want to savage someone for daring to question it's current feasibility and whether it needs some attention.

Now, the point I made along with this was: that just as Carter Follows Nixon, Reagan follows Carter, Clinton follows Reagan/Bush 41, Obama follows Bush 43. Trump follows Obama. A constant moving back and forth along the political spectrum that is highly predictable. Even so, the Liberal touchstones are unmoved. My audacious prediction is that healthcare as established by Obama will not go away anymore than Social Security. Whatever trial by fire it goes though.

And yes as Ned pointed out there has been a tug of war in financial institutions regulation (and many other regulations, some of which are good and some bad. (Is that a Fascist statement on my part? God in Heaven did someone say that on CNN? Is CNN permitted here? Who was it that wanted to tell me how to think and what to watch? So sorry!) Again, I am saying that this type of back and forth is expected and not everyone is happy all the time. That's no reason to accuse every last person who you differ with politically as a despicable human being. That is the definition of intolerance - my ultimate point.


----------



## chimuelo (May 25, 2017)

Way too complex and confusing to understand why the wealthiest Liberals are not being allowed to redistribute their wealth to their voters.
What's keeping them from creating their own State like Venezuela to show us how great it is having a few decide for the millions.
If you have 38,000,000 to help burn down Ferguson, and 1,500,000,000 to invest in Coal shouldn't the proceeds help feed Liberals incapable of finding a way to feed their family.

Liberal economics is hard to understand.
Guess you need a big loan from Liberal educators to learn how to create debt, then never pay the debt because your kids will do it for you.

Maybe Russia could meddle in our wealth redistribution.
They picked a winner with Trump.
At least wealth is being created in the trillions.
This could be redistributed amongst Liberals to save millions from having to suffer by working...

If this works I think fighting terrorists with love and tweets of hands making hearts might work.
Nothing is impossible if the teachings of Jesus are learned..
He fed thousands with one loaf of bread purchased by Roman EBT programs.


----------



## Soundhound (May 25, 2017)

Oh dear. I've got some nasty deadlines today, but will try to respond to this Gingrich/Hannity/Breitbart/NewsMax reading of history later or at the very least tomorrow.

In the mean time, a question. Why is it that those on the far right love to adopt a 'student of history' pose, and then bring nothing more to the table than the declaration of independence? Overcompensate much? The gigantic gold letters of Trump Tower come to mind...

I'll try to be more civil when I return, but there is little hope in that regard, I'm too tired of the radical right wing sophistry that has enfeebled debate in this country.





Dave Connor said:


> As per my earlier and consistent points, here are my sources for the march toward the Left (which I do not disparage) - don't worry I will spell everything out with the bizarre assumptions going on from a certain quarter.
> 
> 1. The Declaration of Independence. Perhaps the greatest liberal document devised by Man. (not remotely kidding here, this and what follows are indeed the references I had in mind.
> 2. The 13th Amendment: Abolition of Slavery
> ...


----------



## chimuelo (May 25, 2017)

SHound if you were jailed by the radical right wing fascists they would use sleep deprivation and play Ann Coulter and Sarah Palin speeches 24/7.
For your cooperation you'd get to edit the audio slightly but only by adding various Reverb parameters.
Further cooperation by turning over names of Liberals burning cars or shooting cops brings extra editing of volumes until you finally cave in.
Then you can eliminate all audio as your reward for cooperation.


----------



## Soundhound (May 25, 2017)

That would, like, totally suck!  I'll have to ask the neighbors in our new Mitt Romney style neighborhood if the recent warnings regarding our mulch hue violations constitutes a thin edge of the wedge.


----------



## Dave Connor (May 25, 2017)

Soundhound said:


> Oh dear. I've got some nasty deadlines today, but will try to respond to this Gingrich/Hannity/Breitbart/NewsMax reading of history later or at the very least tomorrow.


You need funnier jokes. How are you managing to take a simple factual recounting of History of centuries and turn it into an interpretation of the Right? The next thing you know we will have to agree on who was the first President of the United States. The problem is that the answer, George Washington will be considered a clear indicator of a Fox News devotee. Hey, you have to get serious here and way more scientific. The goofiness is wearing thin in a hurry.


----------



## Soundhound (May 25, 2017)

That wasn't a joke. When I make a joke, I'll let you know, since republicans have no sense of humor, it will be necessary I'm sure. (Name one great, or even good right wing comic writer or comedian). Will respond to your wildly ahistorical (and hysterical) right wing reactionary pov once I finish my work!


----------



## Dave Connor (May 25, 2017)

Wrong on party affiliation. A curious oddity your constant guessing at someone's point of view. You're consistent though: every assumption you've made is completely wrong. That's what I call a joke. And you are saying the sighting the 13th Amendment as being a liberal movement of the country is a hysteric rather than historic viewpoint? Now see, that to me is a joke.

How can you engage someone in conversation with all these silly, errant assumptions? How can you intend to assign bias to someone using bias and presumption as your starting point? And why aren't you able to understand how annoying all that is? Are you so biased you are unable to see that's exactly what you trade in? And your litmus test as to what someone's sources are? That's infantile. Do you understand that? Childish. Look at what someone has to do to communicate with you: address all these personal idiosyncrasies. Is any of this registering? Let me assume something here: I'm not the first one to point these things out to you am I?


----------



## Soundhound (May 25, 2017)

Okay. Have a little time off. Had a sandwich, read the paper. Now to talk to Dave's harrumph, harrumph, indignant, hurt feelings brand of conversation. 

Since you won't tell anyone where you get your news, Dave, and your ideas are the same that have fueled the deeply ignorant, fearful modern right wing, I'm assuming that that's where you get your information—Fox News, NewsMax, Breitbart, Heritage Foundation white papers, National Review, etc etc. The moronic, fascist right. If you tell us that I'm wrong, great! I stand corrected. I can take it. Try me! But you won't. So I'll retain my assumptions in the meantime, if that's cool with you. Or if it's not. Honestly, I could give a flying fuck how you feel.

Whoops, I said I'd be civil. Ahem... My point is and has been in these threads for some time that since the 60s the country has been moving steadily to the right. The right wing has always fought against worker's rights, against civil rights, and worked diligently to further the interests of big business. They did everything they could to fight Roosevelt and the New Deal. They did everything they could to fight against the civil rights movement, including the Civil Rights and Voting Rights acts, everything Johnson was trying to do. I think that was when the tide began to turn. As Johnson famously said when the Civil Rights Act was passed, we just lost the south for a generation. He was right on the fucking money, but he was way too optimistic. 

The only reason Jimmy Carter got elected was the country was recovering from having a felon driven from office. And he barely beat Ford in '76. Reagan swept in, and with him the culmination of the business first, hooray-for-me-everyone-else-can-go-fuck-themselves political ideology. He was just working for big business, he wasn't smart enough to understand how it all worked, he was an actor, and the perfect salesman. That ideology took root, and is more influential today than ever. The resulting rampant deregulation has led to economic crisis after economic crisis, which the Roosevelt reforms had kept at bay for decades. 

Bill Clinton was able to get elected because Bush raised taxes, flying the face of right wing dogma, and Clinton was a brilliant politician, a guy who could speak in full paragraphs and keep the thread clear and persuasive, the Stevie Ray Vaughn of stump speakers. When he tried to take the American health care system out of Sinclair Lewis primitivism, another bullshit artist saw the opportunity, and the Gingrich-led 94 elections took back congressional power. The Contract With America is a cynical, jingo laden, business first calamity. But it spoke to that selfish, regressive politics that Reagan had so brilliantly sold. The economy was gangbusters, and Clinton retained power, but his tail was between his legs and he caved completely, ushering in even more destructive deregulation than under Reagan. 

Then Bush II won over Al Gore (kind of, they wouldn't let them count the votes, it was stolen, but Gore conceded, so game over). Gore's a guy with all charisma of a tea cozy, though I think he could have made a terrific president. When Bush was running I was horrified, he seemed alarmingly uninformed and shallow. For lack of a better word, he seemed stupid. Friends of mine who are republicans, some of them anyway, were of the mind that he was smarter than he let on. After his run, they no longer feel that way. 

After the debacle of W, with the country reeling from the devastation caused by deregulation, the economy bleeding a million jobs a month (every month!) and the establishment of endless was in the middle east, costing trillions of dollars, the country elected another well spoken, intelligent guy. As I've said, the republicans had created such a horror show, American elected a black man. This is a deeply racist country, and it elected a black guy. (not a woman yet, it's even more misogynist, they would rather have Donald Trump than a woman, god help us...) 

And the right wing absolutely lost it's shit. This time the groundswell was blatantly racist, the tea party, which elected a group of radicals now known as the freedom caucus, is even more radical than it's predecessors. 

And now Trump. An openly racist, misogynist, obviously corrupt and imcompetant con man has taken the economic strife caused by the republicans, and used the ignorance and fear of foreigners to gain the office. 

Goddamit, I have to go again. I'll be back later to sum up. But for the moment let me just say--- that to say the country has moved to the left in our lifetime isn't just asinine, isn't just patently ahistorical, isn't just the lie that is fed to the ignorant and fearful by right wing propaganda, it's truly dangerous. Richard Nixon today would be a moderate democrat. As would Eisenhower. We have elected an out and out fascist to the highest office in the country. He's also an idiot, and hopefully will self destruct. But it will leave us with someone like Mike Pence or Paul Ryan running the country. The only thing better about that is neither of them will start a nuclear war. I hope.

More later...


----------



## Dave Connor (May 25, 2017)

Is it that you can't respond to my points or won't? And why the silliness about news sources - what is that predilection? You say, "You won't tell us." I answered you as much as I'll answer any insulting question my charming self-aware friend. You are the only person I've ever met who's made an issue of that to any degree. It's annoying and childish as I said but I get it that you assume what people are saying and don't actually listen.

It's your history that is faulty here. And man talk about talking points. No wonder that's all you can see in others - it's all you do. "Deeply racist nation"? So the people that elected a black president for two full terms are racists? Some of which refused to vote for Hillary? < That's a right wing talking point to you correct? Not a fact. Try debating someone so ideological that a simple fact is just not allowed. I know that won't sink in.

These tens of millions of racists are the families of men and woman that expunged Nazisim, Fascism and Imperialism from the world relatively recently. Why did we bother? Why kill off a bunch of racists if you are racist? By your logic we should have done nothing. Look, I get it that you're way out on the left and everyone to the right of you is a Nazi. That's just so extreme and fits in with your misunderstanding of those racially charged terms: the great weapon of the far left - over the top accusations against people who differ in their political opinion. You see the founding documents of this country as intolerant of diversity of thought; as exclusive not inclusive; as tolerant of only one religion - your religion. Harsh condemnation is what you have for tens of millions of Americans. What do you want to do - gas them?

If healthcare, welcoming immigration policies (the people's attitude I'm talking about - not politicians) and the litany of additional liberties for previously marginalized groups such as LGBTQ is not a move to the Left what is? You don't seem to realize that you are ultimately saying that the Left has failed utterly (including Obama) and been entirely ineffectual for decades. Correct?

Do me one favor, address the racist people who fought against racism a generation ago. I'm curious how you square a hideous accusation like that with the people who shed blood so you could be entitled to your own thoughts (though you give no such quarter to others.) That is ever so charming and so deeply American of you. You really get true liberty and it's essential meaning: think like me or you're a racist dog. Admirable qualities you have there.


----------



## Soundhound (May 25, 2017)

I'm out at dinner and just scanned your idiotic diatribe Dave. i'll look at it in the morning. did you read a word that i said? no. all you do is regurgitate the same right wing crap. The west has seen progress and every step of the way the right wing has fought against it. the religious right in the U.S. and it's counterpart in the middle east, all fundamentalism, all the same thing- pri motive fearful regression against progressive thinking. but your profoundly radical right wing lens won't let you see that. i'll look more tomorrow, but from what i've seen you have no point, you make no point, you make no sense. if i listened to sean hannity and rush limbaugh i wouldn't make any either!


----------



## chimuelo (May 25, 2017)

On another note Liberals and Hollywood lost more money in Montana again.
Why don't they just give the money to their voters instead of buying negative ads/lies on fake news outlets.
The GOP candidate was a sure loser according to fake news outlets after body slamming a girly man to the ground.

Even after being cited for Assault voters preferred him over the kinder/gentler folk singer.
Sure looks like NYTimes, WaPo, HuffPo, Israeli-Vision (Una) are going to guide the Sheep with Author/Professor/Cherokee Senator Warren.

If you think she's angry now, wait to you see her after losing in 2020.
She will demonize successful racists, promise Liberals to take their money and give it to them, everything will be free, yet Americans will refuse the tired get the rich guy crap.

Then she'll be booted from politics, go to Wall Street and give speeches like Obama, but because she's a woman, only get 375,000 instead of 400,000.

Sooner or later a Liberal has to win at something.
This is the longest losing streak on record.
I feel so bad for them I might vote for one again just from feeling sorry for them...


----------



## Dave Connor (May 25, 2017)

I've read your post a few times. I'm well aware of your and that viewpoint and analysis. There's a philosophy of the left behind it plain and simple just as there are other concepts and models for workable governance, economics etc., from other parts of the spectrum. I'm not critical of it, in it's intention. But it is looking to and ceding power to the government to control just about everything. That's a dangerous path historically. When I was a kid everyone was suspicious of the government but the left can't get it big and invasive enough now. The colonists and founders were not keen on a dominating central government. It was anathema to them. Now it's a way to control and enforce what many like yourself believe to be _the only way. _That's the problem. This insistence that you're scum if you aren't in lockstep with progressivism. That's so ideological and you guys don't see it as such. But it's a religion and people don't realize when their functioning as inquisitors (which is how your inquires come off exactly - but you don't see it because you have the robe on.) People that aren't big government advocates just have other ideas for solutions. They don't want to be judged and condemned for not wanting to be ruled over and dictated to. That's what a big government is always going to do. The left and the right want to control it to rule and the American people and don't want that infringement. Sure the free market system needs to be watched over but you can't strangle it with regulation. That's not a talking point, it's economics. Businesses need an atmosphere for growth not a ton of bureaucracy they can't afford. it's a dodge to say that's a Fox news talking point. It's economics 101 from college and personal experience in my case.

You get the idea? Not everyone who diverges from the philosophy of the far left is an uncaring, bigoted moron. That is pure ideological arrogance and elitism. Intolerance is not acceptable from any cause or group.


----------



## chimuelo (May 25, 2017)

Don't educate the over educated Dave.
They might get re educated and win an election.

Just be content with knowing they are educated on free stuff.
Links to free news and unpublished documents for a knowledge base is Alinsky 101, maybe even Keynesian Economics 201.
No math necessary, just trillions of other people's money.


----------



## Dave Connor (May 25, 2017)

It's not the differences in philosophy Chim. I understand where both sides are coming from in terms of their goals. It's the viciousness. Not from the left but the far left. Of course the far right but they've always been hate based. It's too pat and too easily issued to the unbeliever. Most of the U.S. no longer the noble descendants of those who fought and laid their lives down so we could have these comfortable debates: they are now racist morons. By extension those who fought true Nazis and Fascists are now the worst parents since 1933 Germany in that their sons and daughters are reckoned vile creatures who will not toe the party line. The blindness to leveling that charge against middle America from those that beat the drum Intolerance! 'round the clock. Never thought I would see such a thing in this country.


----------



## NYC Composer (May 26, 2017)

To be fair Dave, I never thought I'd see the "alt right" (i.e. Dave Duke Nazis) given Presidential credence either.


----------



## chimuelo (May 26, 2017)

Y'all read too many propaganda papers.
If you never meet and connect with people in places where families go to BBQ, watch kids playing sports, musicians performing, artists, theater, etc.
You're led to believe what you read lurks outside.
5-8,000,000 viewers watch cable news, another few million read online fake journalism.

All small potatoes with a big microphone.
Majority of Americans simply tune out the noise.

Too many great things in the world to waste time following George Soros Liberal Party or the Billionaires countering his billions with pro growth middle class policies.
Thing about Soros is they fund chaos and even pressure universities to give awards to riot organizers, even professors are created out of thin air.
Evil racist Nazis build hospitals and give themselves tax breaks.
Kind of makes me lean towards being a Nazi white racist, even though I'm a brown skinned racist.


----------



## Soundhound (May 26, 2017)

The wistful sadness is disingenuous, Dave, or self servingly myopic. You never thought you’d see intolerance in this country? In a nation that was built on genocide and slavery. In a nation where lynching was commonplace and segregation the de facto law of the land until people finally took to the streets to end it, facing beatings, having dogs set on them, and the leader of the movement gunned down in broad daylight.

Progressivism in the 20th century made great strides. Worker’s rights, child labor, women’s right to vote, desegregation, civil rights, a woman’s right to choose to have an abortion. Every single step of the way it was fought tooth and nail by the right.

In the long view, the tide was toward progressivism, until Reagan. It has been moving backward ever since. Financial deregulation returned us to the recurring financial crises which Roosevelt’s reforms had held in check, culminating in the disaster of 2008 which left the economy crippled. The right wing social backlash against a black man having been elected president made it possible to elect an openly racist, incompetent goon in his place.

Throughout my adult life I’ve been hoping that the tide would once again turn back to progressivism, but nothing of the sort has happened. Obama was able to squeeze through a tepid reform of the health care system, but right wing scare tactics have managed to paint what was essentially a republican plan as a government takeover of health care.

I've actually been bbqing and playing tennis and poker with some of Jimmy’s vaunted Americans since we moved to the south for a few years. Having never lived in America before (grew up in NYC, lived the last 20 years in Los Angeles) I resisted talking politics since I assumed it would be unwelcome, which hasn't really proven to be the case. There's just not much interest. Some are interested in politics to a degree, some not much at all, some do read the New York Times occasionally, nobody sees it as any more reliable than local papers, which are markedly right wing. Most get their news from Fox and CNN. Not all are far right wing, but there are only a couple of democrats. I haven't heard anyone say they voted for Hillary Clinton, I have heard people say she's corrupt. American exceptionalism is key, and unquestioned. Trump is popular, some think the growing scandals are a concern, more think it's likely just left wing media bullshit.

What runs through the thinking here, what makes it possible, is your point of view Dave. Regulation and socialism are anathema, and pervasive. There is yearning for a time when government didn’t impose itself unnecessarily, and people could make their own choices.

It’s a fantasy, the lie that Ronald Reagan sold the country on, and it’s never gone away in large parts of the country. Listen to the voters in Montana. There is indignation about a kind of life seen as slipping away, coupled with the idea that government should be run as a business. It is held closely, a righteous cause, and if a congressional candidate assaults a member of the press in fighting for that cause, so be it, in fact more power to him, no safe spaces needed here. If our elections are tampered with by the russians in order to bring the righteous to power, it's well worth it.

I am absolutely intolerant of the lies that support this kind of thinking. It is a clear and present danger. We have elected a fascist as president of the united states, and it is the sophistry of the right, the endless rewriting of recent history that made it possible.


----------



## Dave Connor (May 26, 2017)

Soundhound said:


> The wistful sadness is disingenuous, Dave, or self servingly myopic. You never thought you’d see intolerance in this country? In a nation that was built on genocide and slavery. In a nation where lynching was commonplace and segregation the de facto law of the land until people finally took to the streets to end it, facing beatings, having dogs set on them, and the leader of the movement gunned down in broad daylight.


You keep making my point. We've moved on. To the left as a nation. I'm not the one pointing an accusing finger and marginalizing millions of Americans as sub human racists. Yes I never thought I (me with my own eyes - in my lifetime) would see that. Who's being myopic? You really can't see where the hate is now can you? You're the one that sounds like you want to lynch a lot of folks.


Soundhound said:


> In the long view, the tide was toward progressivism, until Reagan. It has been moving backward ever since. Financial deregulation returned us to the recurring financial crises which Roosevelt’s reforms had held in check, culminating in the disaster of 2008 which left the economy crippled. The right wing social backlash against a black man having been elected president made it possible to elect an openly racist, incompetent goon in his place.


Two things: we are in a system designed for that tug of war exactly. The system is not evil and people having self interest is hardly a shock. We need some regulation. You want to put the entire monetary system in the hands of the government? I think that is a greater evil. Also provably inferior in generating the very money we need to help society. Yes there have been great evils in the financial world with people such as Teddy Roosevelt who began addressing them in a still young nation. However, not only did this capitalist engine grind monstrous Right-wing ideologies into the ground (do you see the difference between Nazis and farmers in middle America that husband their money as well as their crops? Are you really comfortable equating the two? It's an unserious, disqualifying argument of the extreme left - and obviously so.) Also with the Marshall plan, we fed and financed planet earth. All us ugly Americans did that with our horribly flawed Jeffersonian Democracy and financial system. That we are flawed in numerous ways and still need to grow up is one thing but the hyper-partisan _I hate everyone who doesn't see things my way _is a clear violation of the liberal tenets the Left claims to adhere to. It's a monumental hypocrisy. If you can't bring yourself to see that I don't know what to tell you.


Soundhound said:


> Throughout my adult life I’ve been hoping that the tide would once again turn back to progressivism, but nothing of the sort has happened. Obama was able to squeeze through a tepid reform of the health care system, but right wing scare tactics have managed to paint what was essentially a republican plan as a government takeover of health care.


 Yes, God bless you and God bless America. You are free to embrace and hope for the fulfillment of your idealogical preferences. I'm not going to call you a murderous Stalinist, Communist because you are where you are on the political spectrum. But insisting everyone must think and believe in your ideology (your religion - and that's what it is with it's classic religious intolerance) is not supported in our free society. Appropriately, it was the first law codified in the Constitution. I'm sure you don't think that way and thought Jefferson and Co., watched way too much Fox News.[/QUOTE]


Soundhound said:


> ...Having never lived in America before (grew up in NYC, lived the last 20 years in Los Angeles)


I was going to ask you what coast you lived or grew up on. You don't seem to understand how evident your political persuasion is. There's just a way of thinking that can't seem to accept not only the people from different regions but our system which allows for that kind of diversity. The superior air of any political group (such as the Republicans displayed during Obama) is very tiresome. It doesn't become cool and okay when a group claims the moral high ground. It is identical from whatever source.


Soundhound said:


> What runs through the thinking here, what makes it possible, is your point of view Dave. Regulation and socialism are anathema, and pervasive. There is yearning for a time when government didn’t impose itself unnecessarily, and people could make their own choices. It’s a fantasy, the lie that Ronald Reagan sold the country on, and it’s never gone away in large parts of the country. Listen to the voters in Montana. There is indignation about a kind of life seen as slipping away, coupled with the idea that government should be run as a business.


You mean Jefferson's point of view of limiting the powers of government. That's not a fantasy or lie. You see government control as the answer. I see some government controls as necessary. I think you miss the heart of the American people. No one wants a system where people are oppressed by Banking and Wall Street practices. The first thing Obama did when he took office was backstop Wall Street with a ton of our money and then those banks wouldn't even loan it back to the American people at interest! Do you think people wanted that?! No wonder they don't trust their own government when it allows that kind of thing. Yes, I'm calling for regulation - and the restoration of Glass Steagall.


Soundhound said:


> I am absolutely intolerant of the lies that support this kind of thinking. It is a clear and present danger. We have elected a fascist as president of the united states, and it is the sophistry of the right, the endless rewriting of recent history that made it possible.


 It sounds to me like your intolerant of our system: that it will not right itself even with goofball Trump. It will. If the man keeps it up he will be out - that's our system. At least you voice your intolerance. That's more than most. You have a righteous cause and therefore can accuse day and night in a modern Inquisition. The founders have allowed for personal points of view which is the tolerance that informs our way of life. You are being tolerated too my friend.


----------



## Dave Connor (May 26, 2017)

NYC Composer said:


> To be fair Dave, I never thought I'd see the "alt right" (i.e. Dave Duke Nazis) given Presidential credence either.


I agree, but you can't pin that on the desperate folks that had two pitiful candidates. They rolled the dice with Tump. (I did not support that guy for a single second.) That doesn't mean they're racist - it means they're desperate. They would rather blow up everything with Trump than have the status quo along with another pathological person in Clinton. Personally, I have wanted for years to exercise the constitutional provision to: Reform The Government. Seriously. It would be cleaner than what we have right now.


----------



## Soundhound (May 26, 2017)

Dave Connor said:


> You keep making my point. We've moved on. To the left as a nation. I'm not the one pointing an accusing finger and marginalizing millions of Americans as sub human racists. Yes I never thought I (me with my own eyes - in my lifetime) would see that. Who's being myopic? You really can't see where the hate is now can you? You're the one that sounds like you want to lynch a lot of folks.



And you keep making my point with thrilling accuracy in constantly repeating the Bill O’Reilly/Tom Delay/Sean Hannity talking points. Did I call millions of Americans subhuman? No, that’s how your daily news sources encouraged terrified viewers like yourself to think of Obama. And Trump took that hate and rode it into the white house. Is there a deep and enduring trench of racism in the country? Abso-fucking-lutley. I’m angry, disgusted and fed up with the intolerance of the right wing. Your pose of dismay isn’t just disingenuous, it’s bullshit. Lynchings are a right wing pastime, employing the junior high school ‘I’m rubber you’re glue’ line of argument just shows your New Gingrich roots, Dave.



Dave Connor said:


> Two things: we are in a syst/em designed for that tug of war exactly. The system is not evil and people having self interest is hardly a shock. We need some regulation. You want to put the entire monetary system in the hands of the government? I think that is a greater evil. Also provably inferior in generating the very money we need to help society. Yes there have been great evils in the financial world with people such as Teddy Roosevelt who began addressing them in a still young nation. However, not only did this capitalist engine grind monstrous Right-wing ideologies into the ground (do you see the difference between Nazis and farmers in middle America that husband their money as well as their crops? Are you really comfortable equating the two? It's an unserious, disqualifying argument of the extreme left - and obviously so.) Also with the Marshall plan, we fed and financed planet earth. All us ugly Americans did that with our horribly flawed Jeffersonian Democracy and financial system. That we are flawed in numerous ways and still need to grow up is one thing but the hyper-partisan _I hate everyone who doesn't see things my way _is a clear violation of the liberal tenets the Left claims to adhere to. It's a monumental hypocrisy. If you can't bring yourself to see that I don't know what to tell you.
> 
> Yes, God bless you and God bless America. You are free to embrace and hope for the fulfillment of your idealogical preferences. I'm not going to call you a murderous Stalinist, Communist because you are where you are on the political spectrum. But insisting everyone must think and believe in your ideology (your religion - and that's what it is with it's classic religious intolerance) is not supported in our free society. Appropriately, it was the first law codified in the Constitution. I'm sure you don't think that way and thought Jefferson and Co., watched way too much Fox News.



Don’t ask god to bless me, and have him/her bless america on your own time, don’t waste mine with it. I’m anti-theist, anti nationalist, anti primitivism. Your cherry picking of history, in every case, and on every subject, ignores what I’ve said. You don’t want to hear it Dave, it keeps you from concentrating on your beloved flag. Symbol fetishism gives me the chills.

As I said, the 20th century saw a general path toward progressivism, and reaped great rewards. The right wing gained control after mid century and has been attempting, with increasing success, to roll all that progress back. Capitalism is a powerful economic force, and when well regulated capable of doing great things. But it is completely amoral. It has to be regulated within an inch of it’s life, or it will eat everything in it’s path and divert the great wealth it creates into the fewest possible hands. Always.



Dave Connor said:


> I was going to ask you what coast you lived or grew up on. You don't seem to understand how evident your political persuasion is. There's just a way of thinking that can't seem to accept not only the people from different regions but our system which allows for that kind of diversity. The superior air of any political group (such as the Republicans displayed during Obama) is very tiresome. It doesn't become cool and okay when a group claims the moral high ground. It is identical from whatever source.



Your radical right wing persuasion is showing Dave. For someone who refuses to say where they get their information you seem very keen on knowing other people’s ‘credentials’. Kind of icky. Why would I care how little or how much my ‘political persuasion’ is showing? Right wingers always seem to get their feelings hurt, seeing the other side as claiming superiority when faced with an argument they just can’t digest. I wonder why that is? As for where I think my politics are, they’re not much different than when I was growing up. I’m a social democrat, pretty middle of the road in the 60s and 70s. But in today’s climate, far left I guess. What was a moderate republican back then is now a liberal. A 1970s centrist, now a progressive. I didn’t move, the country did, far to the right. Only Fox News viewers think otherwise.



Dave Connor said:


> You mean Jefferson's point of view of limiting the powers of government. That's not a fantasy or lie. You see government control as the answer. I see some government controls as necessary. I think you miss the heart of the American people. No one wants a system where people are oppressed by Banking and Wall Street practices. The first thing Obama did when he took office was backstop Wall Street with a ton of our money and then those banks wouldn't even loan it back to the American people at interest! Do you think people wanted that?! No wonder they don't trust their own government when it allows that kind of thing. Yes, I'm calling for regulation - and the restoration of Glass Steagall.
> 
> It sounds to me like your intolerant of our system: that it will not right itself even with goofball Trump. It will. If the man keeps it up he will be out - that's our system. At least you voice your intolerance. That's more than most. You have a righteous cause and therefore can accuse day and night in a modern Inquisition. The founders have allowed for personal points of view which is the tolerance that informs our way of life. You are being tolerated too my friend.



You really need to stop your religious Sean Hannity viewing Dave. As your Fox News anchors encourage you to think, indeed to anyone on the right, any kind of regulation is seen as government control. They’re taking away our freedoms! It’s that kind of infantile thinking which allowed for the stripping away of the banking regulations, including Glass Steagall, and the resultant inevitable devastation of the economy. I agree, Obama caved to wall street, to my mind that was his greatest failing. But look what he was faced with! Your beloved deregulation had brought the economy to its knees, on the brink of a worldwide depression. He was able to help stop the bleeding, and indeed we saw a growing economy through his time in office. But apparently he had to pay wall street’s ransom to do it.

Your fear is palpable, your misreading of history profound. You equate protest with inquisition, your religious fervor for Milton Freedman’s fictional invisible hand seems unwavering. There is no free market Dave, it’s a canard, all markets have rules.

But I can see we can’t talk. There are fundamental questions of reality we don’t and will never agree on. You think there is a free hand guiding markets, I don’t. You think there is too much regulation, I think there is too little. You think there is no race problem in the U.S., I very much disagree. I think the modern republican party is a dangerous, radical, ideologically driven menace, an existential threat to the country and its people. You don’t. I think right wing economic policy has destroyed the middle class and created a class of mega wealthy people not seen since the days of the robber barons. You don’t. I think the war in Iraq was fought either cynically for personal enrichment, or insanely to remake the middle east into a compliant business partner for the U.S., or maybe both. I imagine you think it was a good idea gone wrong.

Life’s too short Dave. You go back to Fox News and NewsMax, I’ll go back to the NY Times and the New Yorker.

See you next time, at the polls. Good luck to us all till then.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 26, 2017)

Dave:



> desperate folks that had two pitiful candidates



Again, Hillary got a bum rap. She was a fantastic candidate. Her problem is that she's not an exciting one.

And that's all the Democrats need. The hand-wringing about liberal snobs (which I've become proudly since learning how many fucking idiots we have in this country) and abandoning the rust belt and anger and all that... nah. We just need exciting candidates capable of rousing a crowd.


----------



## Dave Connor (May 26, 2017)

Soundhound said:


> You really need to stop your religious Sean Hannity viewing Dave. As your Fox News anchors encourage you to think, indeed to anyone on the right, any kind of regulation is seen as government control. They’re taking away our freedoms! I


 How is it you keep equating the liberties and inclusion of the founding documents as a Fox News thing? I honestly don't get that. It's strange to me. The lawful premise of this country's founding gives you chills as some sort of religious document? What is it you allow for if not that? You mention Fox News more than anybody I've ever met. Why can't you engage on the larger issue of liberty of thought. You have trouble with the thoughts that differ from yours. I understand that but once again, why is that such a problem for you? It is deliberately enshrined in Law. Not the Law of Moses. U.S. Law. Please do not constantly refer to TV shows only decades old when I'm talking about the fundamental principles that allow for our quaint little debate here. It's annoying and strikes me as anti-intellectual.

Let me make the point I've been making all along. Any ideology that condemns 60 million people as racist is not something I can get on board with. I can't even get on board with condemning 6 million people if you know what I mean. (and that is what you are doing exactly unless you think being a racist is not to be condemned.) 60 million? Does the Klan even get to that kind of number in those they will not tolerate?

Yes, God Bless America. What? Did you rail against Obama every time he uttered those words? Do you really not understand the glory of religious liberty? That's why you and I aren't being dragged off to the Gulags. I'm not bothered by what you believe or not. I celebrate whatever it is you or anyone else chooses conscientiously. When someone says God Bless America (which probably means something different to each person who says it) I'm glad they have that liberty. When George Carlin or Christopher Hitchens mock religion I celebrate that as well - I really do. Those are two favorites of mine.

You have the anger and vitriol that often attends your political view. It's intolerance in my view. The view I'm allowed to have because of Sean Hannity's great work in the 18th century. But I don't condemn you for it. You are not tolerant of me though - and exude it very convincingly.


----------



## Soundhound (May 26, 2017)

You must only talk to people who think exactly like you do, Dave. Or you’ve been sitting in a room interacting with the rest of the world on Facebook. There’s a lot you don’t seem to get, because you don’t want to hear anything but what you believe.

You’re a fetishist, Dave. The American flag has absolutely nothing to do with the constitution. Nothing. If every American flag were burned tomorrow, the constitution would be exactly the same. In my lifetime the American flag was coopted by the right wing, and came to represent their selfish, small minded, fascistic point of view, which I find deplorable. American flags flying in front of houses make me uncomfortable for that reason. As I said before (and which you ignored of course, incapable of reconciling the cognitive dissonance it created for you minuscule worldview) when Obama was elected, American flags appeared on quite a few of the houses in my largely liberal and progressive neighborhood. It was lovely. The message was ‘it’s our flag too!’ we love what America really stands for, not the hateful, intolerant, militaristic, mindless point of view it had been coopted by. I didn’t put on one my house because I wasn’t sure things were really going to turn around. And they didn’t. Obama’s election awakened a wave of racist hate which has only gained steam, and again, for nth time, resulted in the election of someone who used racism to create a following and get elected.

And, like republicans, you misrepresent and misread, either from the inability to digest, or more likely from a refusal to think, which you seem incapable of. I never said I condemned 60 million people as racist. You were told by Fox News that that’s how liberals think. So that’s what you think.

Hitch and Carlin were favorites of mine as well, dearly missed in these disgusting times. I share their furor and vitriol for nationalism, false patriotism and religion. When someone says god bless america, just as when someone says they have accepted jesus as their personal savior, it means nothing to me. I take it as a personal belief, none of my business. When the right wing condemns the left as un-American, the irony is that there is no more un-American statement one can make. It is what fascists do. My country love it or leave it was the rallying cry for the pro war crowd in my youth, and it came back full force after 9/11. People who questioned what was about to happen in Iraq, the monstrous invasion of Iraq, were tagged as treasonous. The right wing mantra now is they love 'real Americans'. It's how fascism starts, and it has indeed resulted in the election of a fascist government. 

New Gingrich, Paul Ryan, Mitch McConnel, Dick Cheney, George W Bush all share this point of view. Equating this false patriotism with what fueled the people who fought against Hitler isn’t just insulting, it’s, disgusting, and as I've said, it's dangerous. It opens the door to authoritarianism. I am entirely intolerant of what drives the modern right wing, which is intolerance. Always.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 26, 2017)

> Any ideology that condemns 60 million people as racist is not something I can get on board with.



It's not an ideology, Dave, it's a disappointing reality. I'd like to believe it's just economics that led us here - and you can argue that bad economics helped create the environment that allowed people to pine away for the good old white days - but the big fish is racism, pure and simple. Txxxx gave people permission to blame Mexicans and Moslems for everything that's wrong with the world, and the chumps he conned believed them.


----------



## Dave Connor (May 26, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> It's not an ideology, Dave, it's a disappointing reality. I'd like to believe it's just economics that led us here - and you can argue that bad economics helped create the environment that allowed people to pine away for the good old white days - but the big fish is racism, pure and simple. Txxxx gave people permission to blame Mexicans and Moslems for everything that's wrong with the world, and the chumps he conned believed them.


It's still a viewpoint Nick. By definition, a conclusion, a viewpoint of 10's of millions of people. I would look somewhere else to find out the systemic problems.

Trump is an inarticulate clown. He doesn't even know what he believes. He tries to make a point about a criminal element crossing the border (a fraction of an entire group) and he's too dumb to say it properly. Then he figures he's pissed off Mexicans everywhere and see's a judge of Mexican descent is going to rule on a case of his and figures the judge is going to be out to get him for the slander. And yes, made a flat out racist statement about because he is so clueless and immature and incapable thoughtful restraint. That's stupidity and disqualifying I agree. But is he a virulent racist equal to Hitler? I don't think that's a scientific comparison. Nazi's shoot and exterminate people for fun and no Jews in the family! And no blacks at the family owned golf course! (he insisted blacks be allowed when he bought one where they weren't permitted - when the spotlight wasn't on him.) I'm not defending him. He's an awful guy. I'm saying the American people probably see him that way and never felt they were endorsing a virulent racist. The Muslim issue is different and he definitely broad brushed there but look - he's constrained by the law and will not be able to establish a law based on religious discrimination. Fear played into the vote I agree and we don't have super sophisticated voters everywhere but racism was not at the front of their mind, I don't think. As John Stewart said, paying their bills was.

My point once again is, I don't think the people who voted for him are _themselves_ racist even if in fact he is. I think they saw two candidates; one who wouldn't lower taxes on the middle class and one who would. That happens in elections as you know - a one or two issue vote. I think they did know they were rolling the dice with this guy. Really though, with Hillary expressing her contempt for that voting block she shot herself in both feet with a Trumpian opening of her mouth. Yes she should have won and somehow managed not to.


----------



## Dave Connor (May 26, 2017)

Not ignoring you @Soundhound. Just busy.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 26, 2017)

Hang on, Dave. Did Soundhound bring up Hitler somewhere? I missed it, but I certainly didn't invoke Godwin's Law.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 26, 2017)

And I'm going to repeat it: no matter what you say or what reasons people have for justifying what they did, they knew exactly who he is and they voted to support him. Guilty as charged.

How do you get all this racism without racists?

One more point: a viewpoint is not an ideology. Big difference!


----------



## Dave Connor (May 26, 2017)

I won't nit-pick with you on whether similar charges issue from an ideology (which there is out there a plenty) or point of view or what some consider an objective point of view. You've seen the Hitler comparison's which is a bit over the top and definitely been worked into the mix by some. I'm sure you've gathered it's the charge I'm concerned with however it's conjured. It doesn't work for me. There's no answer in it and it hardly tells the tale. Particularly with a Black president getting full two terms. That doesn't square. Sure there are some people that primitive in this country but is nearly the largest voting block all shot-through racists? That's awfully pat and hardly insightful in my book. We're letting politicians off the hook and indicting the people? Anyway, you understand my point I'm sure Nick. As you said, we can agree to disagree.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 26, 2017)

Well, I can only speak for myself, not anyone else who brings up Hitler. Ideologies all break down when they're applied to the real world, and I don't hold an ideology either.

The fact that people voted for Obama doesn't mean they weren't racist when they voted for the biggest piece of shit in the country.

Do you agree that Txxxx is a demagogue? Well, this is the exact definition of a demagogue: a politician who exploits prejudice against groups of people, usually among lower classes. A "rabble rouser."

You're deluding yourself by writing that off as pat and shallow analysis! It's horrible, but it's reality.


----------



## chimuelo (May 26, 2017)

Losers just keep losing.
If it wasn't racism, it was Comey, or Russia.
It's never going to be how they failed at everything, or lied and rigged the primaries.

The main reason Liberals are becoming relics in the Museums and history books is the way they lost. It's also why they'll never win another race for years to come.

Just saw a feed of Hillary making kids graduation commencement speech all about her.
I always support the winner, just the way America works.
Wasnt until tonight that I am glad she lost.
Glad she still believes she is somehow relevant.
That blind self worth makes voting for GOP candidates an easy choice.

No way after watching and listening to losers crying for relevance could I ever vote for Liberals again.
How can anyone possibly ever claim such pathetic people somehow represent them?

Watching ISIS losing at the same time as Liberals self destruct makes the world a better place.


----------



## Dave Connor (May 26, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Do you agree that Txxxx is a demagogue? Well, this is the exact definition of a demagogue: a politician who exploits prejudice against groups of people, usually among lower classes. A "rabble rouser."You're deluding yourself by writing that off as pat and shallow analysis! It's horrible, but it's reality.


Trump is a blowhard. Is he a genuine anything? Demagogue, Racist, Republican, Conservative? The guys all over the map. He was hard-core anti-Chinese currency manipulation forever and flipped over dinner. He's a piece of work that guy. To those he voted for it may have been more of what e wasn't. An establishment candidate that they didn't even have to guess held them in utter contempt because she flat out told them. And that's how real demagogue's get elected.


----------



## Dave Connor (May 26, 2017)

Soundhound said:


> You must only talk to people who think exactly like you do, Dave. Or you’ve been sitting in a room interacting with the rest of the world on Facebook. There’s a lot you don’t seem to get, because you don’t want to hear anything but what you believe.


My immediate family and tons of my friends are staunch Obama supporters. I've had too many conversations with them to count and share most of their concerns if not always the solutions including more Government control. I understand that way of thinking. I just don't agree with all of it but no one I know considers me right-wing. That's a reactionary stance to someone not toeing the party line. It's not in my nature to march in lock-step since I in fact do think for myself.


Soundhound said:


> You’re a fetishist, Dave. The American flag has absolutely nothing to do with the constitution. And, like republicans, you misrepresent and misread, either from the inability to digest, or more likely from a refusal to think, which you seem incapable of. I never said I condemned 60 million people as racist. You were told by Fox News that that’s how liberals think.


 That's just so wild and what got you onto the flag? Fetishist? You're wound up on a lot of topics and get triggered or something. Why are you assigning such bizarre things to me? That's projecting and I have no inclination to respond to it anymore than someone who shouts something at me from a street corner who has nearly as much information about me as you. Racism by definition should always be condemned and the accusation is in fact a condemnation. You have to know that and do I'm sure.


Soundhound said:


> Hitch and Carlin were favorites of mine as well, dearly missed in these disgusting times.


 I've listened to more Hitchens lately than anyone. I love the guy and have rarely heard a more brilliant mind at work. But you are not listening to those that differ from you are you? You can't even tolerate me without exploding with vitriol.


Soundhound said:


> I share their furor and vitriol for nationalism, false patriotism and religion. When someone says god bless america, just as when someone says they have accepted jesus as their personal savior, it means nothing to me.


Why would I care about your views on any of that? I only care about your freedom to express them. That bothers you though right? That I love the freedom this country affords you and me? You can't have it both ways: exercising your freedom of thought and criticizing people who have different views for exercising their's. Their views, sure you can criticse. Fire away. But criticizing someone for loving freedom or considering that jingoistic right wing nationalism is wanting to control someone and/or punish them for a nonexistent crime.[/QUOTE]


Soundhound said:


> New Gingrich, Paul Ryan, Mitch McConnel, Dick Cheney, George W Bush all share this point of view. Equating this false patriotism with what fueled the people who fought against Hitler isn’t just insulting, it’s, disgusting, and as I've said, it's dangerous. It opens the door to authoritarianism. I am entirely intolerant of what drives the modern right wing, which is intolerance. Always.


I'm not talking about the rich and powerful and I'm not defending them. I'm saying that accusing salt of the earth Americans by the multi-millions of racism is a preposterous, elitist, vicious, unscientific notion. It's an Orwellian redefinition of that word to enforce an ideology upon the unworthy masses. It's a very old trick with a hideous track record and I will never stand idly by and be silenced by it.


----------



## Dave Connor (May 26, 2017)

Spent too much time doing this guys so I may not answer with any particular dispatch or even at all. Not personal and I've enjoyed this. I'm particularly enjoying my friend Nick Batzdorf's civil tone toward me as I know how much he would want to put me in my place and is more than capable. A much smarter guy than me as well. But he values friendship above politics and that is real quality of character.


----------



## Soundhound (May 27, 2017)

Dave Connor said:


> My immediate family and tons of my friends are staunch Obama supporters. I've had too many conversations with them to count and share most of their concerns if not always the solutions including more Government control. I understand that way of thinking. I just don't agree with all of it but no one I know considers me right-wing. That's a reactionary stance to someone not toeing the party line. It's not in my nature to march in lock-step since I in fact do think for myself.



If you haven’t got it by now Dave, I’ll make it easier for you. I’ve been winding you up to some extent. But only to some extent. The underpinnings of your thinking are the same misreadings and cherry picking of facts and history that have provided cover for the deeply corrupt and amoral right wing. It’s not reactionary, it’s calling a spade a spade. You’re a spade, Dave.



Dave Connor said:


> That's just so wild and what got you onto the flag? Fetishist? You're wound up on a lot of topics and get triggered or something. Why are you assigning such bizarre things to me? That's projecting and I have no inclination to respond to it anymore than someone who shouts something at me from a street corner who has nearly as much information about me as you. Racism by definition should always be condemned and the accusation is in fact a condemnation. You have to know that and do I'm sure.



Take responsibility for what you say Dave! Isn’t that a tenet (gloriously hypocritical but universally parroted) of the right wing? Your post is a little confused, and devolves into grammar school level psychology, but what’s your point about racism? It’s bad? We agree there. What the hell are you trying to say?



Dave Connor said:


> I've listened to more Hitchens lately than anyone. I love the guy and have rarely heard a more brilliant mind at work. But you are not listening to those that differ from you are you? You can't even tolerate me without exploding with vitriol.



You say you love Hitch, and then whimper at strong opinions? It's a disservice to his hilarious and wonderful legacy. You're missing the point, as always. sigh…



Dave Connor said:


> Why would I care about your views on any of that? I only care about your freedom to express them. That bothers you though right? That I love the freedom this country affords you and me? You can't have it both ways: exercising your freedom of thought and criticizing people who have different views for exercising their's.



Again, right wing, us vs them talking points. If I disagree with you vehemently, then I don’t believe in your right to express your opinion? I’ll say it one more time, for the slow class. What I despise is intolerance. The right wing is built on intolerance. I'm not intolerant of anything, except intolerance. Get it?



Dave Connor said:


> Their views, sure you can criticse. Fire away. But criticizing someone for loving freedom or considering that jingoistic right wing nationalism is wanting to control someone and/or punish them for a nonexistent crime.



Dave if you don’t want to be accused of being right wing, then why do you repeatedly copy and paste right wing conflations and lies? ‘Critizing someone for loving freedom’ is out of the mouths of intellectual infants like Trey Gowdy. Can you articulate it better, or is that what you really mean?



Dave Connor said:


> I'm not talking about the rich and powerful and I'm not defending them. I'm saying that accusing salt of the earth Americans by the multi-millions of racism is a preposterous, elitist, vicious, unscientific notion. It's an Orwellian redefinition of that word to enforce an ideology upon the unworthy masses. It's a very old trick with a hideous track record and I will never stand idly by and be silenced by it.



Unscientific? Socio-political analysis, or whatever the fuck it is we’re so gleefully and haphazardly fooling around with isn’t science. The earth is round, that’s science. Dark matter is a proposed explanation for the observable universe. That’s science. Donald Trump is an idiot and a menace, that’s not science.

Another right wing ploy you seem enamored of is the old Richard Nixon jiu jitsu of accusing the other side of doing exactly what you are doing. Racists today are fond of accusing black people of reverse racism. That’s Orwellian. The left wing is trying to take away our freedoms. That’s Orwellian.

And per your last post, hurt feelings seem so prevalent on the right. Why is that? To put it in the schoolyard level dialogue you seem most comfortable in, Dave, you can dish it out, but you can’t take it.

Don't worry about not answering. This isn't a civics class, it's a freewheeling discussion, some people get heavily involved for a time, some people blowing off steam. Anything goes. Anyone can lose interest at any time, there are no rules. How's that for personal freedom?


----------



## Soundhound (May 27, 2017)

To the eternal question, are the people who voted for Trump racist? It's a tough one, but I can't get my head around any other explanation than they are at the very least ok with electing someone spouting racist ideas. It doesn't mean that was necessarily the driving force behind their vote, though I do think there are many people for whom that was true. But it does mean that they are able to accept it. Or exercise enough denial to live with it. And between those last two options, I don't see any useful daylight. 

The one universal for Trump voters, is that they are not smart. I have yet to meet a smart trump voter. I thought George W Bush was the least intelligent president of my lifetime, but I knew some people who voted for him who are intelligent. Trump took it to another level. It's pretty horrifying.


----------



## chimuelo (May 27, 2017)

Well I would love a return of my old Union Democratic Party.
But I am a racist to want working people represented instead of excuse making liars and losers.
They are a freak show, I want nothing to do with it.

I want winners, if they are my kind or white Asian or black, I don't care.
Just despise losers, especially when they continue doing what makes them lose and blame everyone for being incompetent.

Difference between me and many here, I don't hate anyone enough to vote for people I have to "settle" for.
I'm beginning to really despise the lying Liberal party though.

Please keep parroting what others tell you, and then maybe these freaks will just disappear in 2018 making Poverty Pimps and girly men a thing of the past...


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 27, 2017)

It's not parroting anything, Chim. The guy is a demagogue. See my definition above.

Dave:



> The guys all over the map.



Of course! That's what con men do: say what the person they're conning wants to hear.


----------



## Soundhound (May 27, 2017)

Dunno, I've been saying this a long time. In 1972, I thought Richard Nixon was full of shit, in 1982 I thought Ronald Reagan was full of shit, in 1992 I thought George Bush was full of shit, in 2002 I thought George Bush was full of shit, then John McCain and Mitt Romney and finally Donald Trump. I think republicans are full of shit. Plenty of democrats are full of shit, but republicans really seem to achieve an admirable consistency. Which is perfect for their voters come to think of it, the hobgoblin of little minds and all that...



chimuelo said:


> Please keep parroting what others tell you, and then maybe these freaks will just disappear in 2018 making Poverty Pimps and girly men a thing of the past...


----------



## chimuelo (May 28, 2017)

I will not send American boys to fight a war in SE Asia, that Asian boys oughtta be fighting....
It depends on what your definition of is, is.
If you like your doctor, you can keep him.
Benghazi was because of a video on YouTube, and wasn't terrorists...
Obama and Hillary didn't send weapons to Syria to cause the deaths of thousands of Syrians, and millions flooding into Europe from the Middle East and Africa is from excessive CO2.
99% of the worlds scientists say so.

Still would love to see that list...


----------



## NYC Composer (May 28, 2017)

Un-ignored you for one post, Jimmy. Figured you'd react to the Commie assault. Refreshing to see you go full frontal Breitbart. Bye again!


----------



## chimuelo (May 28, 2017)

Liberal journalist was arrested for desecrating Jewish graves and temples Larry, not Breitbart.
Enjoy your march for terrorists with Comrade Bill next month.
Free stuff and safe spaces for the offended....
I'll honor American servicemen instead of Soros and his non serving riot organizers.

Happy Memorial Weekend
Honor a veteran, they served so yuze guys could whine about free stuff.


----------



## Soundhound (May 28, 2017)

Redneck.


----------



## chimuelo (May 28, 2017)

Red Necks, White Socks and Blue Ribbon Beer.....
No seriously, have a good Memorial Day.
I'm introducing Mexicans to Bratwurst.
The Mustard is a tough sell though, they make faces and pull a bottle of hot sauce out of their pockets.


----------



## Soundhound (May 28, 2017)

You too Jimmy! Sounds like trying to get my nj relatives to put mayo on a ham sandwich, just not gonna happen.


----------



## NYC Composer (May 28, 2017)

Sing it, Fareed:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/28/us/fareed-zakaria-liberals-cnntv/index.html


----------



## chimuelo (May 29, 2017)

http://www.lifezette.com/polizette/rahm-emanuel-2018-dem-takeover-aint-gonna-happen/

Here's Rahm explaining how losing 1,100 seats has made a win in 2018 difficult.
Snowflakes just put fingers in their ears singing La-La Land.

Burn some more campuses and shoot some more cops.
Hold protests and block traffic on Memorial Day...

The dream of a poverty stricken America ruled by rich whites (Soros) is over.
Try a new angle of unity, tough sell, but better than more fist shaking wealthy whites promising free stuff by the middle class...


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 29, 2017)

Larry, I saw that and had the exact opposite reaction to yours.

That is straw man bothsidesism at its absolute worst. It ignores objective reality.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 29, 2017)

A more enlightened person would have posted a link to what he said earlier in the show about Saudi Arabia, how they and not Iran are the supporters of terrorism. That was well worth paying attention to.

What you posted is lame.


----------



## NYC Composer (May 29, 2017)

Well, I'm not very enlightened when it comes to the Batzdorfian school of thought.

I am, however, able to hold more than one thought in my mind at the same time, so though my lame brain limps sadly along, it is apparently more capacious than your own. Have a rectitudinous day (as ever.)

Oh, and then there's:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/05/...phone&smid=nytcore-iphone-share&_r=0&referer=

Apparently, I'm not the only progressive who recognizes the inherent problem of sneering condescension.


----------



## Soundhound (May 29, 2017)

Yeah yeah yeah. Been seeing this stuff over the holiday weekend. This is an interesting piece, if loooooong winded...

https://www.edge.org/conversation/jonathan_haidt-what-makes-people-vote-republican

In 2008 Obama was elected and the right wing lost their shit and used the deep well of racism that runs through our culture to resist him.

In 2016 Donald Trump was elected and the left lost their shit. 

And the equivalence between the two is....? Nothing. Nothing at all. 

Does't mean calling the other side a bunch of assholes is going to help, it isn't. But not saying what's really going on and looking to draw equivalances between the two is to normalize what's going on. Trump is hopefully going to self destruct, he's an idiot, but the modern republican party is just as dangerous, if not more so.


----------



## Soundhound (May 29, 2017)

As in:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/29/opinion/donald-trump-greg-gianforte.html


----------



## NYC Composer (May 29, 2017)

Holding more than one thought in your head means having more opportunity to succeed, because your logic overwhelms your emotions-so while it's emotionally satisfying to denigrate your opponents with derision and name calling, the better stratagem is to analyze them, speak judiciously about them and co-opt their issues. This can be done SIMULTANEOUSLY with throwing red meat to your troops. It simply requires the will to do what it takes to achieve success, even if it isn't as much fun.

As to the house your own tribe lives in, the inability to step back and analyze what your peeps did wrong means you can never improve your edifice.

As the noted intellectual Charlie Sheen so famously said: "Winning!!" The cost of losing has been enormous. I prefer to win, so that my son and his kids have a world to live in.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 29, 2017)

Larry, we head butts over this every time.

I refuse to pretend that idiots aren't idiots. The solution to the division in this country isn't for liberals to understand what conservatives believe (I understand it completely) and try to find common ground, it's for the Republican party to change. They have decided to embrace totally irrational points of view on every issue.

The conservatives who think - which as far as I can see includes about three of them (David Frum, Bruce Bartlett, and there's probably another one) - don't vote for these opportunistic assholes.

This has nothing to do the traditional left-right debate over the role of government, it has ONLY to do with a Republican party that has gone off the rails.

You seem to believe that being nice to idiots is the answer, and it doesn't work, it just encourages them.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 29, 2017)

And the only thing that's going to make them change is when their lies don't work anymore.

That day may be coming. Taking away people's healthcare is hard to hide.


----------



## chimuelo (May 29, 2017)

It must suck knowing Trump rescued Americans from the multi trillion dollar failure Liberals lied about called "Affordable Care Act."
Veterans suicide rates for in house patients is dropping because of options for private care.
I think folks like winning.

When we're ready to lose again, or give Iran, Cuba, N.Korea and Palestine billions we'll bring back the losers.


----------



## NYC Composer (May 29, 2017)

Prolly thinking of George Will.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 29, 2017)

George Will says idiotic things most of the time (such as "liberals who want a railway are trying to take away our freedom"), but at least he's not down with Txxxx.

And he is articulate. But he's not like David Frum, who's one of the people who convinces me we have it right (i.e. he's the brightest one and that's all they gots?).


----------



## NYC Composer (May 29, 2017)

Of course "we" have it right (not ironic). As a result, it is our sacred duty to tell "them" how stupid and racist they are, because that will win us future elections (ironic).

You want to know what we really butt heads about, Nick (other than primacy of course, because we are both alpha)?
How to win. 

In the end, I'm a pragmatist. I'd rather win than be 1000% right. The real question is, of our differing opinions, which is the winning strategy?


----------



## chimuelo (May 29, 2017)

Liberals are losers.
They ran out of other people's money to spend.
Let folks who work for a living build the nation and economy back up.
That way there's something to give away again.
There's just no place for them when you need economic growth and opportunity.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 29, 2017)

Larry, we don't butt heads, we head butts.

Look, I don't feel it's arrogant of me to say that I'm pretty well informed and fully capable of discussing and debating policy with the best of them. But these are people who are impervious to reason. And besides, I don't get to the details even with liberals, because most people aren't as into this stuff as I am and the conversation doesn't go that far.

So it really doesn't matter whether I call a spade a fucking shovel. You're not going to persuade anyone either - including that conservative guy here who says you are (I forget what his name is - sorry).

What I can do is volunteer to make calls and knock on doors next election, and I will. But I'm only interested in talking to normal people, not rhinoceroses*.

(* Reference: the Ionesco play.)


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 29, 2017)

This is for Dave and all you people who think Txxxx's election wasn't all about racism (because you don't believe 60+ million people could suck that badly):

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-administration-plans-to-minimize-civil-rights-efforts-in-agencies/2017/05/29/922fc1b2-39a7-11e7-a058-ddbb23c75d82_story.html?utm_term=.aea05b4a3865


----------



## NYC Composer (May 29, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Larry, we don't butt heads, we head butts.
> 
> Look, I don't feel it's arrogant of me to say that I'm pretty well informed and fully capable of discussing and debating policy with the best of them. But these are people who are impervious to reason. And besides, I don't get to the details even with liberals, because most people aren't as into this stuff as I am and the conversation doesn't go that far.
> 
> ...



....and you think I won't? I'll march, write the largest checks I can, register voters where it matters...what does any of that have to do with trying to influence people who might be sitting on the fence by not acting like their lives or thoughts are inconsequential to the Correct Path? Worked great for Hillary in the Rust Belt. 

I say again-the important thing, really the only thing, is WINNING. We now know the consequences of losing. Whatever gets us to winning works for me-I'd even call people morons....but I doubt you would STOP doing so to win, because as always, Nick-you are so fucking correctamundo.

I'm not at all sorry that I don't pass your behavioral or ideological litmus tests, and by the way, why are you the only well informed person on the planet?


----------



## chimuelo (May 29, 2017)

Yes the usual


Nick Batzdorf said:


> This is for Dave and all you people who think Txxxx's election wasn't all about racism (because you don't believe 60+ million people could suck that badly):
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-administration-plans-to-minimize-civil-rights-efforts-in-agencies/2017/05/29/922fc1b2-39a7-11e7-a058-ddbb23c75d82_story.html?utm_term=.aea05b4a3865



So you are informed because you copy/paste Parrots?
A Billionaire owns your newspaper, he purchases Liberal politicians, so of course division is how to keep the Sheep full of hate and excuses for a decade of failure.

Please point out a single win for America for the 13 Trillion Liberals wasted...

When you struggle with that difficult math look overseas wherever they involved themselves.
They even lost elections in Israel using tax payers money.

Ever seen the movie "A Bronx Tale"..
Liberals are Mush, the degenerate loser, always borrowing money to gamble, always losing.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 30, 2017)

Vacation time.


----------



## woodsdenis (Jun 1, 2017)

The US will pay the ultimate economic and political price for your idiot President's decision today. Don't be surprised if the phrase "go fuck yourself" is said quite loudly the next time you need something. Europe and China moving on, see ya.

Of course the stupid dumb ass used Pittsburgh as a reference of who he was fighting for, it voted 80% for Clinton.


----------



## chimuelo (Jun 1, 2017)

Nice copy/paste quote....
Here's mine as I too am saddened, I need greivance counseling...

I'd like to teach the world to sing
In perfect harmony
I'd like to hold it in my arms
And keep it company

I'd like to see the world for once
All standing hand in hand
And hear them echo through the hills
For peace through out the land

I'd like to build the world a home
And furnish it with love
Grow apple trees and honey bees
And snow white turtle doves


----------



## woodsdenis (Jun 1, 2017)




----------



## chimuelo (Jun 1, 2017)

Well after reading the Pittsburg Accord it's pretty brilliant.
China, India and the USA would be the major signatories.

They would build hundreds of Coal Fire Plants then extract billions from little countries in exchange for lowering emissions.
But charging these smaller nations for reductions is brilliant.
When they fail to pay, we start firing up more Plants.

Much better than the TPP of Climate Change called the Paris Accords.

Great new wealth creation strategy.

Right up there with the good cop/bad cop left/right dog and pony show.
Obama gives billions in Swiss Francs to Iran, Conservatives flip out on social media, etc.
Then Trump comes to Israel and Saudi Arabia's rescue with 130,000,000,000 in arms deals.
Sheep are confused, but investors like me check Raytheon and Martin-Marietta stocks...
The good old bad cop good cop has the Sheep fooled....


----------



## Soundhound (Jun 1, 2017)

Jimmy at this rate you're going to run out of tin foil for your hats before the end of summer.


----------



## NYC Composer (Jun 1, 2017)

woodsdenis said:


>


Denis, I understand the sentiment, but I'll take Trump.


----------



## woodsdenis (Jun 1, 2017)

NYC Composer said:


> Denis, I understand the sentiment, but I'll take Trump.


The irony being that N Korea is part of the agreement ! As of now the only countries that are not are the US, Syria and Nicaragua. Nicaragua didn't sign up because it didn't go far enough.


----------



## NYC Composer (Jun 1, 2017)

Yeah, but still.


----------



## chimuelo (Jun 2, 2017)

I can already see a N.Korean style funeral for Al Gore in 2038.
His corpse will be displayed on a Yacht mounted to a float.
Armed Sharia Liberals push weeping Sheep towards the float as it comes by, they are told to cry.
The most convincing peasants are promoted to public service.
No longer forced to gather wood for boiling their water...


----------



## chimuelo (Jun 2, 2017)




----------



## chimuelo (Jun 2, 2017)

Looks like States can deal with EU/UN without federal mandates and negotiate how much they want to give to the bureaucracy.
Great idea. Pisses off Trump and let's wealthy redistributors put their money where their mouths are.
When we were kids we could drive over to another State to drink legally.
Federal mandates fucked that up.
Let States compete for awards and ceremonies of song and praise.

Does this mean Liberals will stop taking hundreds of millions of Soros Coal & Oil profits...
I don't see the pole dancing coming to an end anytime soon....


----------



## Johnny42 (Jun 2, 2017)

chimuelo said:


> Well after reading the Pittsburg Accord it's pretty brilliant.
> China, India and the USA would be the major signatories.
> 
> They would build hundreds of Coal Fire Plants then extract billions from little countries in exchange for lowering emissions.
> ...


Chim,
Why did Obama give billions to Iran?


----------



## chimuelo (Jun 2, 2017)

To get them to join the Paris Accords?


----------



## chimuelo (Jun 5, 2017)

Anyone catch Al Gore and Chris Wallace interview?
Gore is the least freaked out person in the Alarmists (alarmed folks) now.
Everything I support with renewables and markets he finally agrees with.
Have a feeling his movie will be different, but I enjoyed how he didn't try to make excuses for bad data he clung to before.
When I heard Chris Wallace was interviewing him I caught it at 0130 Hours.

He should negotiate for us in Paris Accords with Trump and Congressional approval.
Right now the USA paid 1 billion and of course nobody else paid a dime.

I never liked Gore even as VP I thought he was an idiot as he tried to speak Espanol and was wrong about Cinco di Mayo.
He now has Chimuelo as a temporary fan.
Just because Liberals are liars and must be monitored during a probationary period.

Now over to MSNBC where puppies kittens and children are washing up on shorelines around the world.


----------



## woodsdenis (Jun 5, 2017)

chimuelo said:


> Right now the USA paid 1 billion and of course nobody else paid a dime.



http://www.greenclimate.fund/docume...dges.pdf/eef538d3-2987-4659-8c7c-5566ed6afd19

Use Google rather than watching Fox.


----------



## chimuelo (Jun 5, 2017)

My fake news is better than yours.

Green Climate Fund is code for redistribution of wealth, which thankfully we are, to broke down nations, which thankfully you are.

No thanks.
Make girly men be productive and help build a renewable economy rather than breast feeding from others more successful.

Not a question of denial, that's more failing shaming tactics.
Americans have been feeding stupid people too long.
Move to where the food is pendejos.
Better yet, grow your own so you can feed yourself...

Or continue blaming racism, global warming, hurt feelings for your meager standard of existence.
Either way you get air, no more billions without accountability.
Save your fudged numbers for Sheep seeking guidance and persuasion.


----------



## chimuelo (Jun 5, 2017)

Talk about Al Gore, unless you despise him for telling the truth.
Must admit, I was shocked too.
Liberal lies are so commonplace when the truth is spoken it's a historical moment.


----------



## Soundhound (Jun 5, 2017)

A friend recently produced a shoot with Al Gore and was blown away by how scary smart he was. And she's a smart cookie.


----------



## chimuelo (Jun 5, 2017)

Always smart at making money, came from Standard Oil money, but to get through a Wallace Interview with such grace and poise on what Sheep consider enemy territory impressed me.
Fox Sunday News with Maria Bartiroma for financial info, and Chris Wallace with Gore was enjoyable.
I found out about it through my Subscription Service.
I cannot possibly stomach another Clinton interview though.
I feel sorry for her actually. It's hard to get mad at a Blind person.


----------



## Soundhound (Jun 5, 2017)




----------



## Johnny42 (Jun 5, 2017)

chimuelo said:


> Always smart at making money, came from Standard Oil money, but to get through a Wallace Interview with such grace and poise on what Sheep consider enemy territory impressed me.
> Fox Sunday News with Maria Bartiroma for financial info, and Chris Wallace with Gore was enjoyable.
> I found out about it through my Subscription Service.
> I cannot possibly stomach another Clinton interview though.
> I feel sorry for her actually. It's hard to get mad at a Blind person.



Chim,
I can, as a matter of fact, tell you that he does not come from oil money.


----------



## chimuelo (Jun 5, 2017)

Share your published documents.
Not "news" from one of the many PR Firms.
I've got Liberal News outlets saying the same thing.
I don't rely on fake news, never did.
Millions of Americans watched the fake news and conclude what I knew for years.

It's like Liberals blathering on CNN such as lying Susan Rice recently.
They're not under oath so what they say amounts to fecal matter.


----------



## Soundhound (Jun 5, 2017)




----------



## Johnny42 (Jun 5, 2017)

chimuelo said:


> Share your published documents.
> Not "news" from one of the many PR Firms.
> I've got Liberal News outlets saying the same thing.
> I don't rely on fake news, never did.
> ...


I've read many of your posts and I always find them to be waggish but this one is not. By the way, I don't need to get my info about the Gore family from any newspaper.


----------



## chimuelo (Jun 6, 2017)

Armand and Big Al love you.
It's an honor having such an admirer.
Waggish, ....I like that, I shall add that to my repertoire...


----------



## chimuelo (Jun 6, 2017)

Personally I don't care about public servants selling their access.
This is legal in a negotiation.
When you spend millions to get a job that pays thousands somebody wants their investment ROI.
This is very important when it comes to redistributing money amongst your friends and family.


----------



## Johnny42 (Jun 6, 2017)

Your posts always have some truths to them. Just don't exaggerate. Sure Armand Hammer was a supporter of the Gore family because of the coal industry. Al Sr represented coal country Tennessee as a senator. However, Gore Jr did not make most of his fortune from selling his shares from Occidental Petroleum. Remember, Al Jr was berated by environmentalists for his association with that company. But I do agree with your last post.


----------



## chimuelo (Jun 6, 2017)

Oh enough already.
Let's talk about Gore & Trump lowering the Seas and saving Earth from Humans....


----------



## Johnny42 (Jun 6, 2017)

I am in Florida. And I am happy to say that global warming is not a democrat or a republican issue. It is a survival issue for us. So, we are not waiting for the federal gov't to act. It would be great if a Trump-Gore ticket can fix this problem. I would even take private server Hillary-twitter Trump ticket, if they could fix this issue. The problem is very real to us down here in Florida.


----------

