# Your favourite composition/orchestration tips



## Rohann (Feb 16, 2017)

Since I found the MIDI orchestration tips thread incredibly helpful, I thought I'd start another here, as the thread seemed to routinely veer off the topic of actual MIDI orchestration and touch on all sorts of areas like whether or not music is more talent or more skill, general orchestration and mixing tips, etc. Whether this thread or otherwise, another stickied post of general tips would be fantastic, and likely add more focus.

So: what are your favourite composition/orchestration tips? I don't feel as if I'm in any sort of place to be giving tips, but a terribly obvious one I've only recently put into practice:
-Do detailed mockups of a section of a score, by ear. It's amazing how much one can learn from a simple exercise like this, simultaneously training orchestration, mixing, theory and composition, all in a very connected, "hands-on" kind of way.


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## J-M (Feb 17, 2017)

+1 for the detailed mockup thingy, has helped me a lot.


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## Jaap (Feb 17, 2017)

Draw a quick setup on paper. Not in notes, but in curves/colours/writings etc on how you want to have your piece. The mind actually composes and thinks much quicker without being limited on sitting behind a computer or instrument. For me this helps to set the general moods, get an overview of the structure I want to use and sometimes I also scrambles things in it like for example "lush strings", "fat brass", soft emotional solo instrument etc etc.

I have a big template with over 1000 tracks in Cubase (unloaded instrument tracks), but when I start a new track I only have 5 instruments open with instruments that inspire me to do some fiddeling around with. I often get confused and demotivated when I see this endless list of tracks. However for a quick work setup it saves the day again. Good grouping and routing makes everything easily to access and work with.

Learn the basics of your DAW - keycommands, shortcuts etc. Setup a good system for yourself to have a solid workflow. Nothing kills creativity more then have to struggle with technical stuff.

Orchestration - when working with samples and with knowing that it will NOT be peformed keep in mind that less is more (I am guilty of making that mistake myself quite often). If you orchestrate in a traditional way with doubling and adding stuff as you used to do for a full orchestral score, you might end up with a muddy sounding nightmare.

Love your mistakes! When recording a melodic line or a harmonic progression and you make a mistake while playing, don't stop straight away, but continue. I had more then often that the mistake turned out in a useful idea and if not, well a quick edit fixes it


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## Rohann (Feb 17, 2017)

Jaap said:


> Draw a quick setup on paper. Not in notes, but in curves/colours/writings etc on how you want to have your piece. The mind actually composes and thinks much quicker without being limited on sitting behind a computer or instrument. For me this helps to set the general moods, get an overview of the structure I want to use and sometimes I also scrambles things in it like for example "lush strings", "fat brass", soft emotional solo instrument etc etc.
> 
> I have a big template with over 1000 tracks in Cubase (unloaded instrument tracks), but when I start a new track I only have 5 instruments open with instruments that inspire me to do some fiddeling around with. I often get confused and demotivated when I see this endless list of tracks. However for a quick work setup it saves the day again. Good grouping and routing makes everything easily to access and work with.
> 
> ...


Thanks for all this! Great points. Definitely concur on all of them, and the first you mentioned I find quite important. My lack of virtuosity on instruments, at least when it comes to writing, means that being able to communicate the idea coherently onto paper and convey an overall vision for a song ensures I don't go off track or lose the idea when I get to my instrument, serving the song first and foremost in the end. Really useful. Ditto on all the rest, too.


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## JohnG (Feb 17, 2017)

my tip is this: Learn as many useful tricks as possible for the style you want.

Most of the pieces I hear from people starting out in orchestral writing would gain immensely with a small amount of score study from someone who really knows what he's doing. Whether that's Richard Strauss or John Adams or John Williams or Lady Gaga -- pick your model -- there are ways of achieving predictably satisfying results. Whether that's "big" or "scary" or "touching" or "rock all night," there are ways to orchestrate / arrange important moments in one's piece that reliably work well.

I am not talking about aping some other piece. I'm talking about "tricks of the trade," like using the octave doubling and chord voicing that will accomplish what you are aiming for in a predictable way.

Often, I've found as a conductor or at a group scoring session, you can hear when inexperienced composers really want to accomplish a particular effect, but it's weak or incomplete. Knowing some of these techniques from score study saves a huge amount of time and produces a happier composer.


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## Rohann (Feb 17, 2017)

JohnG said:


> my tip is this: Learn as many useful tricks as possible for the style you want.
> 
> Most of the pieces I hear from people starting out in orchestral writing would gain immensely with a small amount of score study from someone who really knows what he's doing. Whether that's Richard Strauss or John Adams or John Williams or Lady Gaga -- pick your model -- there are ways of achieving predictably satisfying results. Whether that's "big" or "scary" or "touching" or "rock all night," there are ways to orchestrate / arrange important moments in one's piece that reliably work well.
> 
> ...


In lieu of score analysis, would you say it's as useful to learn parts on a piano, or to mock it up virtually? Or would you say there's specific advantage to analyzing a score?


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## JohnG (Feb 17, 2017)

Rohann said:


> would you say there's specific advantage to analyzing a score?



Well, you can learn a lot about _composition_ from a piano reduction of an orchestral piece, or by transcribing an orchestral work into a piano part for yourself.

But I'm not really talking about composition as such. I'm not talking about "what chords and melodies am I writing here?" Instead, I'm talking about when the space ship comes out of nowhere to the rescue -- what should everyone be doing in your orchestra? What is the brass doing? What are the strings doing? How do winds and percussion fit in? How does the whole thing pull off that "big moment" successfully?

Many believe, wrongly, that it's all about having an "epic" library or "epic" hits at that moment. That may be part of it but that is far from all of it. Understanding how the brass or wind or string section works as a whole is something better understood by looking at how someone does it _who knows what he or she is doing_. If you want "fragile," or "sad," or "big," or even "epic," find a spot in a score that does that thing you want, and figure out how it happens. 

One "real loud" boom doesn't make it epic, as you probably know. And yet we see thread after thread about that kind of thing, reflecting a false belief that it's largely or even mostly about the FX or the EQ or the early reflections or something.


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## Rohann (Feb 17, 2017)

Great points. I've certainly experienced that first hand -- trying to get a certain "large" sound and learning quickly that adding more layers actually just makes it muddy and incoherent, ironically undermining any immensity it had.

Would you say score analysis is more specifically advantageous then than trying to recreate a section of a score with virtual instruments, or do the two go hand in hand?


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## Dave Connor (Feb 17, 2017)

Jaap said:


> Orchestration - when working with samples and with knowing that it will NOT be peformed keep in mind that less is more (I am guilty of making that mistake myself quite often). If you orchestrate in a traditional way with doubling and adding stuff as you used to do for a full orchestral score, you might end up with a muddy sounding nightmare.


Very true. Once it sounds right there's no need to do the exact orchestrating you would do for live. You can get a very unnatural sounding build up of sample frequencies. What I do is think about how I _would _have orchestrated it real world to maintain that skill in my head.


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## JohnG (Feb 17, 2017)

Rohann said:


> Would you say score analysis is more specifically advantageous then than trying to recreate a section of a score with virtual instruments, or do the two go hand in hand?



In recommending looking at scores, I was mostly focused on looking at the parts and seeing what's going on -- what doubles what, how the chord is supported, whether you have strings in octaves or even two octaves in places, how you bring out the cellos if they have the melody -- all that stuff.

However, to your question about trying to emulate an orchestral passage:

Forcing yourself to try this will help anyone notice more than just looking.

Often, recreating real orchestra with samples would be a worthwhile exercise, though there are limitations, as you undoubtedly are aware. Even the best sample libraries can execute successfully only a limited range of the things a real orchestra can achieve. It's hard to find trombone samples that are even close to as agile as a real trombone player is, for example. Ditto violas, for the most part. On the other hand, samples don't have to breathe, as a real player would, and they can play in a very high range for a long time without tiring.

The extra capabilities of samples can lead people into mistakes of all kinds, unfortunately. For example, sampled trumpets sound great and full even at their highest notes. Why? Because on the date when those notes were sampled, the engineer and producer went through as many takes as necessary to get that high, yet full sound. In real life, that doesn't always work, so the highest notes need support and some kind of preparation. You can't expect a real trumpet to enter _pianissimo_ on a high concert D or E and expect it to sound the way it did with samples. Maybe if you have someone killer playing, but even then, it's asking a lot. Similarly, contrabass trombones can't play super long, held, low notes. The instrument requires a ton of air so it simply can't be played live. But it can with samples!

One of the weakest emulations of samples is unison doubling -- a solo trumpet with four French Horns, for example. Live, this sounds great and the trumpet player will, without being told to do it, tailor his sound to blend with the French Horns. Bass clarinet blends with cellos, clarinet with viola, flute with oboe -- and of course lots more. Unison doubling allows the orchestra to change colour. With samples, these rarely succeed fully.


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## Rohann (Feb 22, 2017)

JohnG said:


> In recommending looking at scores, I was mostly focused on looking at the parts and seeing what's going on -- what doubles what, how the chord is supported, whether you have strings in octaves or even two octaves in places, how you bring out the cellos if they have the melody -- all that stuff.
> 
> However, to your question about trying to emulate an orchestral passage:
> 
> ...


Great points, thanks for this. I think recreation can be good for ear training but score studying seems great for really digesting pieces. I've always been fascinated by Howard Shore's approach to Lord of the Rings, so I'll probably do something like that as well as Bartok or similar.


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## JohnG (Feb 22, 2017)

Rohann said:


> I've always been fascinated by Howard Shore's approach to Lord of the Rings



In that case, you might buy (or get from a library) this book: The Music of Lord of the Rings, by Doug Adams. It has tons of score examples from the movies.


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## Rohann (Feb 22, 2017)

JohnG said:


> In that case, you might buy (or get from a library) this book: The Music of Lord of the Rings, by Doug Adams. It has tons of score examples from the movies.


Oh fantastic, thanks. I've been curious about his compositional approaches as well, i.e. his leitmotif development and the cultures he drew from, so this looks invaluable.


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## ThomasNL (Feb 27, 2017)

JohnG said:


> In that case, you might buy (or get from a library) this book: The Music of Lord of the Rings, by Doug Adams. It has tons of score examples from the movies.


Full scores?


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## JohnG (Feb 27, 2017)

ThomasNL said:


> Full scores?



Not many full score examples. There are many single-line quotations of various melodies. Many of the examples are 3-4 stave reductions of, often, 2-10 bars.


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## Parsifal666 (Feb 27, 2017)

JohnG said:


> Many believe, wrongly, that it's all about having an "epic" library or "epic" hits at that moment. That may be part of it but that is far from all of it. Understanding how the brass or wind or string section works as a whole is something better understood by looking at how someone does it _who knows what he or she is doing_. If you want "fragile," or "sad," or "big," or even "epic," find a spot in a score that does that thing you want, and figure out how it happens.
> 
> .



I must champion the woodwinds here, though they really don't need me to defend them, One of the big turn offs for me before I even tried Ark 1 was the purported lack of clarinets and flutes. This seems to me a real dealbreaker, those instruments are more than helpful, even when used simply as textures...I don't care how loud you want your music, to disregard the woodwinds is to shoot yourself in the foot.

Listen to Williams' at his most epic (and when were discussing that, we're talking SUPERheavyweight Epic); hard to imagine much of that without the piccolo, flute, clarinets. Shore and his "Lord"....

Though I might be talking out of school...it's more than possible that OT just wanted folks to round things off with their woodwinds (at a special, separate PRICE! yells Bob Barker).


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## novaburst (Feb 27, 2017)

Ok this is going to sound strange, before working on your composition, make sure you eat well, loosen your self up perhaps go for a run, if your not a coffee drinker have some energy drinks on standby, No (alcohol) this is a no no. keep the brain on full alert, if you get stuck have a brake or listen to a nice piece of music that inspires you.

if your composition is going to take weeks to months to complete, try to raise the level of your health, eating healthy diet keep fit, this attitude will radiate through your composition.

if you have close friends, loved ones, stay out of arguments, nothing worse than trying to do a piece of music with hurts or pain on your mind eating away at your creation,Guard your(emotions,mind), 

Dont go telling every one hay guys i am working on a new piece, suddenly your phone will not stop ringing your invitations will increase, you will be tempted to put your composition away just to have some fun. so keep your composition work a secret until its completed then blow the trumpet

oh and of course.........make sure you use east west HWS or brass


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## Rohann (Feb 27, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> I must champion the woodwinds here, though they really don't need me to defend them, One of the big turn offs for me before I even tried Ark 1 was the purported lack of clarinets and flutes. This seems to me a real dealbreaker, those instruments are more than helpful, even when used simply as textures...I don't care how loud you want your music, to disregard the woodwinds is to shoot yourself in the foot.
> 
> Listen to Williams' at his most epic (and when were discussing that, we're talking SUPERheavyweight Epic); hard to imagine much of that without the piccolo, flute, clarinets. Shore and his "Lord"....
> 
> Though I might be talking out of school...it's more than possible that OT just wanted folks to round things off with their woodwinds (at a special, separate PRICE! yells Bob Barker).


Good point. I didn't really use woodwinds much in some of my writings as I didn't find the airy timbres terribly appropriate for what I was making, but I'm realizing more and more how valuable they really are for textures and the like.



novaburst said:


> Ok this is going to sound strange, before working on your composition, make sure you eat well, loosen your self up perhaps go for a run, if your not a coffee drinker have some energy drinks on standby, No (alcohol) this is a no no. keep the brain on full alert, if you get stuck have a brake or listen to a nice piece of music that inspires you.
> 
> if your composition is going to take weeks to months to complete, try to raise the level of your health, eating healthy diet keep fit, this attitude will radiate through your composition.
> 
> ...


Really good points re: health and relationships. Stress, poor health, etc tends to kill creativity for me, and I assume anyone. After sitting cooped up for a while and working on writing, I find my brain power to start going downhill after a while. A regular exercise schedule certainly helps, as well as good food.

Re: Food. General life advice -- stay away from sugar and simple carbs, except on specific occasions. In general, some basic protein and fats like eggs and bacon or a bit of complex carbs goes a long way in fueling the brain and avoiding the switch to one's parasympathetic nervous system being more active than necessary ("rest and digest"). I've found a tremendous difference by eating well but relatively lightly during the day and eating heavier things at night when I'm not trying to hop back into working right away.

Another one I've found crucial:
-Listen to a lot of different types of music. Maybe not necessary if working on more restrictive projects, but for creativity in general I find having a broad musical palette to be essential. I find cross-genre inspirations to sometimes be the most useful, so if I'm trying to write for guitar I'll be jamming to songs but also be listening to orchestral music, folk, classical, etc. If I'm writing a more intense orchestral piece I'll listen to more metal, or progressive rock, or something more experimental, etc. My limited experience tells me listening to something too similar too often to what I'm trying to write makes for more derivative (in a negative way) ideas.

-I also find getting outside into the forest (my personal "home") and listening to new music the best way to break routine and get inspired.


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## Rohann (Feb 27, 2017)

Thanks all for the input, please post more! So much to digest in just one page.


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## Daisser (Mar 2, 2017)

JohnG said:


> In that case, you might buy (or get from a library) this book: The Music of Lord of the Rings, by Doug Adams. It has tons of score examples from the movies.



I bought this book as I'm a fan of Tolkein and I was blown away. This is a great book to give insight into story-boarding themes on a grand scale for a movie / album. It's wonderfully written with beautiful illustrations and I would recommend it to anyone who is a fan of the LOTR. John, thanks so much for this post!


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## sazema (Mar 2, 2017)

Before any orchestration drink a lot of whiskey, just for the mood... then orchestrate something (you will see how tips flying over your head constantly) and then go to sleep around 04:00 am.
Tomorrow when you wake up, listen your work and and wait for the crucial moment.
Actually, you can expect two revelations:

1) For God sake, what is this? What I have done ?!???
2) Woowwww, is it me?



And tip... my best ever is M.Verta's channel delay offset trick.


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 2, 2017)

I can't stand Tolkien, but I so wish there was a book like the Adams, only featuring one of the Williams and/or Zimmer scores instead. Howard Shore can be incredible as a composer, but I'd LOVE to see the other two. Say, the Dark Knight Trilogy, I'd paid premium cash for that.


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## Daisser (Mar 2, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> I can't stand Tolkien, but I so wish there was a book like the Adams, only featuring one of the Williams and/or Zimmer scores instead. Howard Shore can be incredible as a composer, but I'd LOVE to see the other two. Say, the Dark Knight Trilogy, I'd paid premium cash for that.



Yes, it would be nice to get this kind of book on many different types of music. I guess it requires the right kind of composer as well, one willing to sit down 'fireside chat' style as well.


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## JohnG (Mar 2, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> the Dark Knight Trilogy



The music from these movies has two composers at the top of their game: James Newton Howard and Hans Zimmer. I think the result is spectacular.


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 2, 2017)

JohnG said:


> The music from these movies has two composers at the top of their game: James Newton Howard and Hans Zimmer. I think the result is spectacular.



Huge fan, and I'd LOVE to see the full score and storyboards like the Adams book above. Same with Man of Steel, Interstellar, Jurassic Park, Close Encounters, The Omen.


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## Saxer (Mar 2, 2017)

sazema said:


> Before any orchestration drink a lot of whiskey, just for the mood... then orchestrate something (you will see how tips flying over your head constantly) and then go to sleep around 04:00 am.


When I have a lot of whisky I don't orchestrate but play synth pads or sleep in front of the TV...


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## Rohann (Mar 2, 2017)

I don't doubt there are analyses of Williams scores floating around.

I think the reason Shore's score is so analyzed is not only because of its tie to a literary classic, but because of its incredible cohesiveness, leitmotifs and the fact that it's over 10h of intricately tied together musical storytelling. Even if you don't like LOTR, it's an absolutely brilliant and unique score probably worth studying, which is considerably more than can be unfortunately said for a lot of the temp-derivative scores floating around modern blockbusters.


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 2, 2017)

Rohann said:


> I don't doubt there are analyses of Williams scores floating around.
> 
> I think the reason Shore's score is so analyzed is not only because of its tie to a literary classic, but because of its incredible cohesiveness, leitmotifs and the fact that it's over 10h of intricately tied together musical storytelling. Even if you don't like LOTR, it's an absolutely brilliant and unique score probably worth studying, which is considerably more than can be unfortunately said for a lot of the temp-derivative scores floating around modern blockbusters.



No argument with the LotR score being in places sensational and well worth looking into score-wise. I have all those soundtracks; Shore outdid himself imo. It could be argued that, a hundred years from now when people fully accept film soundtracks as Art music (well, the artful ones I guess lol!), Shore's work will be recognized. Same with Williams, Goldsmith......Zimmer.


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## Vik (Mar 2, 2017)

Since this is about advice for composers/orchestrators, and since John Williams have been mentioned several times already... have you guys seen this?


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## muk (Mar 3, 2017)

This is not a rule you can stick to, but more of an insight that was important for me: it's in the inner parts (inner voices/middle voices?) that the music happens. Intuitively you'd think that the top line and the bass line are most important because they kind of stick out, but the middle voices tell how much craft, skill, and thought went into a piece. Proper voice leading makes all the difference, and it sounds so much better if vl 2 and violas, for example, play musically meaningful parts. Brahms was a master at this. It's always astounding to study what fantastic parts he wrote for these instruments.


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## Jetzer (Mar 3, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> I can't stand Tolkien, but I so wish there was a book like the Adams, only featuring one of the Williams and/or Zimmer scores instead. Howard Shore can be incredible as a composer, but I'd LOVE to see the other two. Say, the Dark Knight Trilogy, I'd paid premium cash for that.



There is a book called 'Hans Zimmer and James Newton Howard's The Dark Knight: A Film Score Guide', but I have no idea if it is any good and if it is as detailed as Doug Adams book (which is amazing).


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## Tino Danielzik (Mar 3, 2017)

I would say, get Mike Verta's Masterclasses, especially Orchestration 1 & 2, Composition 1 & 2, Here is Johnny! and Here is Johnny, too!, these classes are so great with a huge amount of orchestration and composing tips!

Rick Beato's YouTube Channel has a lot of interesting insights, too.

Recently found this video, very interesting:


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## Michael Antrum (Mar 4, 2017)

sazema said:


> And tip... my best ever is M.Verta's channel delay offset trick.



Which video is that in ? I haven't come across that one yet.....


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## sazema (Mar 4, 2017)

mikeybabes said:


> Which video is that in ? I haven't come across that one yet.....


I believe it's SECRET WEAPONS or something like that


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## Farkle (Mar 4, 2017)

It's in Virtuosity by M Verta


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## Flaneurette (Mar 4, 2017)

You probably get sick and tired of me, but anyway, I think it has to be said. 

If you like stories and films, it's easier to write music for them. Film already hands you a story on a silver platter, so it only needs support and translation into music. Films and music have a lot of similarities. They both tell stories. Have a structure, progressions, etc...

Personally, in my most honest opinion, things are overanalyzed. Too much analysis going on. Trust your own heart, and simply follow the story instead of looking at what has been done by others. Nobody needs another Carpenter, Williams, Goldsmith or Zimmer. We want YOU. You're uniqueness and unique style. And you can only create this by trusting yourself and being yourself. That's the only _trick_ I know that works 100%.


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## Michael Antrum (Mar 5, 2017)

Flaneurette said:


> If you like stories and films, it's easier to write music for them. Film already hands you a story on a silver platter, so it only needs support and translation into music. Films and music have a lot of similarities. They both tell stories. Have a structure, progressions, etc...



Unless you are scoring a David Lynch film, in which case you probably have no idea what is going on...


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## Rohann (Mar 7, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> No argument with the LotR score being in places sensational and well worth looking into score-wise. I have all those soundtracks; Shore outdid himself imo. It could be argued that, a hundred years from now when people fully accept film soundtracks as Art music (well, the artful ones I guess lol!), Shore's work will be recognized. Same with Williams, Goldsmith......Zimmer.


He certainly did, they're really a masterwork in the world of film scoring. Heck, to write ten hours of cohesive, story-filled music is a significant achievement in any genre. Really want to find the complete scores for those films but they don't produce them often and as a result end up getting sold often for well over $1000 on Amazon.
Re: Art music. I think this is happening more and more, but not nearly enough, especially for videogames -- I think it has considerably less respect garnered for it, but for little reason in my opinion. Many videogame scores are filled with more atmosphere and even themes in many cases than many modern film scores. Both mediums need more respect in the musical world (the well-done ones anyway), rather than viewed as simply background to a film to be forgotten about later (some _directors_ even think such absurd thoughts). I'm sure this has been passed around, but reminds me of this:


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## Rohann (Mar 7, 2017)

Flaneurette: Why would anyone be sick of you ? And good points; I despise the idea of music simply being background which trudges along. Good scores tell stories themselves. What I do think helps the "follow your own heart" is listening to a lot of music and learning/studying/reorchestrating aspects that you really like, not to copy, but simply to understand.
mikeybabes: Great point actually -- I often think weirder or more psychological films sometimes have even more room for creativity. There are a lot of complex feelings one can impress upon a viewer by juxtaposing a certain atmosphere suggestive of a particular mood that conflicts with the mood in the film to foreshadow, etc.


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