# Logic Pro & Apple



## Levon (Oct 8, 2018)

Hello,

I’m a PC user and have never used/owned an Apple computer. My first DAW was Cubase but I never got along with the eLicencer/Dongle so moved to Studio One. One of my frustrations with Studio One is lack of support for NI Komplete Kontrol. I’ve always wanted to jump ship to Logic Pro. A big driver for that is studios and musicians that i’ve used and collaborated with on my pop material have been Logic users. But the flip side is that it would cost me between £3000 - £4000 to move over to Apple/Logic Pro from scratch. I’m at the stage we’re I need a new studio computer anyway but my dilemma is do I spend about £1500 on building a new PC based computer or do I completely switch to Mac and move to Logic Pro even although the cost will be a considerable amount more than a new PC. 

My question isn’t really about if Logic Pro is better than Cubase, Studio One etc. It is more about whether people consider its worth investing in the Mac ecosystem at this time just to use Logic Pro. If you had to build your computer studio all over again would you still go down the Mac route? 

My head is telling me PC but my heart is telling me Mac! 

Cheers,
Levon


----------



## Wunderhorn (Oct 8, 2018)

For a good answer we should wait til next year and see if Apple will deliver on their half-hearted promise of a new Mac Pro. It is not so much about this computer model but more whether we can trust Apple to further offer solutions for the creative/professional market.
Sign of late show little interest in this field and if it was right this minute, I would stick with a PC.

Also, within the last few years quality control has gone downhill with Apple regarding OS as well as hardware. The only branch I see doing well is the Logic Pro team itself.


----------



## John Busby (Oct 8, 2018)

it's a tough choice for sure, but it sounds like the safer thing would be to just build a new pc and continue down that road.
it would save you a lot of money.
that said,
i was in your situation 3 years ago and took the leap of faith and have not regretted it AT ALL!
it took a little while to get thru the apple learning curve both with Logic and the computer because i've been a pc user since i learned how to type. ha
There are a ton of learning resources tho i.e. lynda.com, groove3.com that helped me immensely not to mention the gold mine that is youtube.

Once i got used to Logic tho, it has proven to be a powerful DAW and apple really seems like they care about their user base.
the past two or three updates to Logic have been game changing for me, it's really proving to be an all-in-one stop for media production considering i'm also a Cubase, Nuendo and Pro Tools user.

Concerning the apple ecosystem, if you're an iphone or ipad user i think you'll find that an apple computer is an excellent addition to your arsenal.
I've also noticed that Mac OS is extremely stable and i have had zero tech troubles.

All in all, it's probably not the safest choice but in my opinion it's worth the shot!


----------



## ThomasL (Oct 8, 2018)

Make a +/- list and see which side gets the most pluses. Hard to give advice on this matter. And just to make you think twice, I moved from Logic last year to Studio One


----------



## Vik (Oct 8, 2018)

Levon said:


> do I spend about £1500 on building a new PC based computer or do I completely switch to Mac and move to Logic Pro even although the cost will be a considerable amount more than a new PC.



...or do you spend much less than that on a refurbished 12-core 5.1 Mac on eBay?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 8, 2018)

Wunderhorn said:


> Also, within the last few years quality control has gone downhill with Apple regarding OS as well as hardware



I hereby push back on that!


----------



## InLight-Tone (Oct 8, 2018)

I literally just read a quote today from someone stating that moving to a Mac for Logic alone is NOT worth it. Unless you have money to burn I'd say no...


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 8, 2018)

InLight-Tone said:


> I literally just read a quote today from someone stating that moving to a Mac for Logic alone is NOT worth it. Unless you have money to burn I'd say no...



This thread is literally annoying me.

Look, if you like Logic and Macs - as I happen to do - then it's worth it. If you don't, then you don't.

It's a matter of preference. Logic itself is an amazing deal - $200 for an outstanding DAW + more very serious instruments, libraries, and plug-ins than you can eat. The current Mac line-up isn't ideal for me, so my machines are both used, but I personally wouldn't want to switch to Windows (although I have Windows machines).

Obviously you can make music using whatever you want. But people all like the set-ups they're invested in, or else they kvetch about them and say the opposite, so you can expect the polarized answers you're getting.


----------



## nas (Oct 9, 2018)

A PC will still give you the best cost to performance ratio by far so you might consider getting a mid level iMac AND building a high powered PC then networking them together with VE Pro. I know some people are going for the all-on one computer setup now that the iMac Pro and the soon to be released Mac Pro (so they say) are making it possible, but you will pay significantly for that. If you want to move to LPX and get some serious performance, then this may be an option. Another option may be getting an older trashcan MacPro for a cheaper price.

I think the question to ask is do you _need_ significant power? are you going to be running large orchestral templates with lots of V.I. and processing? If so, then the above may be worth considering.


----------



## tav.one (Oct 9, 2018)

I bought a mac just for Logic 8 years ago, but I stayed and will stay on mac for much more. Definitely unhappy with the current Mac lineup but not leaving the ecosystem for windows unless apple forces me.


----------



## jonathanwright (Oct 9, 2018)

It's possibly a small detail, but it's also worth noting that all major and minor updates to Logic have been free since 2013.


----------



## Vik (Oct 9, 2018)

Not a small detail at all; a very important one for people with little money. Nevertheless, I would have preferred a solution where they'd charge some money for the main updates. Not necessarily so much, but if Logic eg have 400.000 users and they pay $50 each for an update every second year, Apple could hire 10 mill. USD worth of developers/year to speed up the development in the areas that hasn't gotten much focus/hire more QA people etc.


----------



## Puzzlefactory (Oct 9, 2018)

Wunderhorn said:


> Sign of late show little interest in this field and if it was right this minute, I would stick with a PC.



Isn’t this what people are always saying year after year and then apple continues to release machines (iMac pro) and updates (Logic) that just go against the constant nay saying...?


----------



## WindcryMusic (Oct 9, 2018)

jonathanwright said:


> It's possibly a small detail, but it's also worth noting that all major and minor updates to Logic have been free since 2013.



That's very true. The same can also be said of the OS updates (although unfortunately I can't say that those have been as consistently positive in their effects over the last couple of years as Logic updates have been).

To the OP: while I won't say that a switch from PC to Mac today is as compelling a prospect today as it was when I made the same move ten years ago, in a certain light I think you've answered your own question. The rule I always recommend is "choose the software you want, and then get the computer that can run it, not the other way around". It sounds like you want to run Logic, and in my opinion you've presented a valid reason for that desire.


----------



## Alex Fraser (Oct 9, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> This thread is literally annoying me.
> 
> Look, if you like Logic and Macs - as I happen to do - then it's worth it. If you don't, then you don't.
> 
> ...


Bravo, well said.
I'll add that the PC/Mac debate is largely an idealogical one. Either you subscribe to Apple's way of doing things, or you don't. Whichever way is right for you is best.

I'd also suggest you're about to get a bunch of advice on what machine to buy. Used stuff maybe. Someone will mention a "Hakintosh" at some point. Someone else will chime in about Apple "selling nothing but iPhones and not caring about the pros." Then they'll be a final verse about not buying an iMac or Mac Pro Trashcan as the "cheese grater Mac was the last great machine that Apple made."

And it goes around and around. Sorry for the rant. Like I said at the start, the ideal solution is the one that you choose yourself. In most other cases, it boils down to "I did this so you should too."


----------



## Dewdman42 (Oct 9, 2018)

Logic is great and I am really committed to it now, so I surely hope Apple will continue to release better computers then they have been lately. No doubt they are making an obscene amount of money as a company on phones and iPads running IOS mainly and lower end consumer pretty-ware. That being said, they are a very big company now with many departments working on different things and I'm pretty sure they will eventually come out with some great new, expensive computers that blow everyone away when they finally do. But we shall see. Ever since Steve Jobs passed they have made numerous major mistakes while riding the coat tails of the smart phone revolution. I have a friend that works at Apple and I keep telling her to sell her stock and diversify but she still believes it will go up even more and that the future is wide open for Apple. Bottom line, Apple isn't going anywhere, they are still putting a lot of effort into LogicPro maintenance, Logic isn't going anywhere either. The only thing I am afraid of is that they will stop working on OS X, but that doesn't appear to be their strategy just yet.

I had some bad experience with my 2010 MacBookPro, myself I would not touch one of their new laptops at all, never again actually. For the amount of money I spent, it should have been a better experience. The latest ones coming out reportedly have their own problems too and these are often difficult or impossible to fix completely. A lot of non-techie consumers are really romanced by the aesthetics of Apple computers, how they look on the outside and really only need just good enough computer power, or maybe some computing power to support pretty GUI's. Its like they are shopping for furniture rather then a computing platform. Apple has made serious money on that very concept. They are not going to stop now. 

Which brings me back to my 2010 MacPro which is running strong and hopefully will continue to for years to come, because until Apple comes out with something that can be taken serious as a computing platform again, a tower with bays and ports, that is quiet and expandable and upgradable with industry standard components, there is no way they will get $5000 from me. So we shall see, but I think its way too early to give up on Apple entirely...especially if you love and depending on LogicPro. They will do something and OS X/Logic will live on for quite a while.

If not, I will cross that bridge when I get there...Cubase, StudioOne, Free Sonar, Reaper, Bitwig, etc....there are lots of other options if I have to eventually give up on Logic...but we are a long ways away from that.


----------



## jonathanwright (Oct 9, 2018)

Another small detail, if you get a Mac, but don't like Logic, you can still use Studio One, Cubase etc on it.


----------



## Dewdman42 (Oct 9, 2018)

This is all true, but i do have to say, If I gave up on Logic I would probably go PC at this point and listen I like a lot of things about OS X....but the way Apple has handled so many things related to that platform have been a huge disappointment, while Microsoft has come really long ways to improve their platform. The only reason I switched to Mac years ago was because at the time I was interested in DP. And I did so very hesitantly, by first testing it out on a hackintosh for a while. However, after some years on DP I decided it wasn't for me, and found Logic to be just incredible, though it has its own problems too, all the DAW's have pros and cons, but that one just resonates with me now so I stay on OS X. But if it were not for Logic, I would absolutely no questions build a dream windows rig and move right along to the next phase.


----------



## Wunderhorn (Oct 9, 2018)

Puzzlefactory said:


> Isn’t this what people are always saying year after year and then apple continues to release machines (iMac pro) and updates (Logic) that just go against the constant nay saying...?



No. I have been loyally in the Apple cosmos since 1995. Waiting for another professional machine for 5 years now is unique in Apple's history. Not to speak about all the stripping of connectivity, server features, and a support that treats you as if you were a baby.
I still like Mac OS better but the veil is thinning. The PC world is miles ahead in hardware performance. If you are a creative who seeks to be on the cutting or even push the envelope a bit you have to wonder where the spirit and vision went that Apple used to be famous for.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 9, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> I keep telling her to sell her stock and diversify but she still believes it will go up even more and that the future is wide open for Apple



Diversification is always good advice, but I kinda think you've picked a bad time to be telling her to sell her Apple stock. 

Their stock has gone up about 25% in value just this year, and it shows no sign of slowing down.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 9, 2018)

Wunderhorn said:


> Waiting for another professional machine for 5 years now is unique in Apple's history



As I may have posted a few times  the reason is that computers reached a performance plateau about ten years ago, and they're now long-term investments.

How many people just in this thread - me included - are happily using (upgraded) 9-year-old computers?


----------



## Dewdman42 (Oct 9, 2018)

couldn't disagree more. I lived through the dot com implosion, just barely. She should be selling. doesn't have to be all at once, but she should be selling it off and diversifying into other investments. Right now she's almost entirely in her company. I have been where she is, with a company that was showing no end in sight to the up-trend but eventually it crashed about 1000%. And we are also way overdue for a recession. Apple has done some extremely impressive things with their stock valuation, and you're right it has gone up, not only 25%, a lot more than that...but sooner or later it won't


----------



## Dewdman42 (Oct 9, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> As I may have posted a few times  the reason is that computers reached a performance plateau about ten years ago, and they're now long-term investments.
> 
> How many people just in this thread - me included - are happily using (upgraded) 9-year-old computers?



on this we agree wholeheartedly. They will try to drag us into new gear by inventing new standards of some kind and we'll be forced to upgrade in order to connected with the world in some way.


----------



## Wunderhorn (Oct 9, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> computers reached a performance plateau about ten years ago



You are quite right about this. Now the question remains - why? I think that most consumers are happy with the status quo because they don't need more and the remaining 0.1% of us who don't want to have to use slaves on a giant template or who don't want to sit and wait 12 hours for a 3D scene to render are financially speaking not worth it putting in the necessary research into faster technology.

That is however incredibly short-sighted. That is because the industry grows and thrives on acceleration. If you have creatives, producing content that is ever more dazzling but requires better machines on the consumer end, consumers will buy.
Look at Virtual Reality. How attractive is it when it all looks blocky and stutterring like an early nineties video game because more details cannot be rendered in realtime? Now, imagine that to be detailed, realistic and in 8K or more like any special effects scene in a movie. Suddenly those VR glasses would be flying off the shelves. And this is just one area.

You know when chasing after quick money has become the focus when the highlight of a keynote turns out to be a set of emojis.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 9, 2018)

Dewdman42, we're talking about different things.

I totally agree with you: not putting all your eggs in one basket is *always* good advice, as I said. No question, it's very risky putting all your money in one company if that's your only investment. Unless you're very young and can start over if you lose everything, it's not a good idea to do that.

All I'm saying is, basically, that stock analysts are all telling people to buy or hold AAPL now, because they're expecting continued earnings.

https://www.nasdaq.com/symbol/aapl/recommendations

So I'd say this is not the time to sell your AAPL stock - unless you believe this is a good time to get out of the market in general, because you think a recession is coming soon. I don't. Well, I mean one is always coming, but it's not like last time when the economy was being driven by a housing bubble.

It's also worth mentioning that AAPL did okay during the Great Recession.

We put our "gambling" money in AAPL around 12 years ago, and it's gone up about 11X. Unfortunately that wasn't a whole lot, but I'm not complaining.


----------



## AmbientMile (Oct 9, 2018)

Ill throw my two cents in here. I was PC for a loooong time (just to show my age here, my first computer was a Timex Sinclair with 1K of memory). When I made the jump to computer based recording, I struggled with software, ASIO drivers, sound cards, etc. After a few years of spending most of my time tinkering with the computer instead of being productive with it, I bought a Mid 2010 MBP and Logic. For me it was instant gratification. I didn't need third party drivers or work arounds of any kind. And I am still using the same setup today with upgrades to the MBP over the years. The downfall is that I have NO idea anymore about current PCs and Macs because I am so satisfied with my current setup. I know that I need a new system soon as 2010 is ancient for a computer these days. To get back to my point, my experience is that the Mac was easier to get on with from the start and has lasted much longer than my experience with PCs. Good luck in your choice!


----------



## Dewdman42 (Oct 9, 2018)

Wunderhorn said:


> You are quite right about this. Now the question remains - why?



The truth is that they actually CAN'T make computers much faster with the existing paradigm. Its not a matter of motivation. A fundamentally new technology has to be invented, if that's even possible....along with free energy.

They have reached a point where silicon chips and CPU's as we know them are about as fast and small as they are going to get. Now they are trying to get us to buy new stuff by putting faster busses, bigger and faster memory, etc.. but they are running out of stuff that people need there too.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 9, 2018)

Right, although the 28-core chip Intel recently announced is still moving forward.

But as you say, how many of us need that much power? I’m not working with moving holograms, and I have less interest in VR helmets than in sleeping on nails.


----------



## Dewdman42 (Oct 9, 2018)

28 cores wow. but I agree, my MacPro 12 core has all the power I will need for quite some time.


----------



## kitekrazy (Oct 9, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Right, although the 28-core chip Intel recently announced is still moving forward.
> 
> *But as you say, how many of us need that much power? *I’m not working with moving holograms, and I have less interest in VR helmets than in sleeping on nails.



Shoddy software development will bring that to it's knees eventually.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 9, 2018)

kitekrazy said:


> Shoddy software development will bring that to it's knees eventually.



It's hard to imagine that happening with an instrument or effect plug-in. Hosts are all making good use of multiple cores. But who knows.




Dewdman42 said:


> 28 cores wow. but I agree, my MacPro 12 core has all the power I will need for quite some time.



Here's the link:

<https://appleinsider.com/articles/1...t-get-intels-new-28-core-5-ghz-xeon-processor>

But I have to wonder whether the 2-year lead time since they announced the Mac Pro is because they're waiting for the rumored ARM processors. It can't take that long to develop another computer.


----------



## dflood (Oct 9, 2018)

tav.one said:


> I bought a mac just for Logic 8 years ago, but I stayed and will stay on mac for much more. Definitely unhappy with the current Mac lineup but not leaving the ecosystem for windows unless apple forces me.


It was 10 years ago for me but exactly the same scenario. In my case, I left Pro Tools and Windows for Logic and a Mac. Since then of course I went down the Apple rabbit hole with iPads and iPhones and Apple TVs. And I haven’t regretted it yet, except for the empty wallet. However, I’m a bit concerned about their ongoing commitment to the Mac and OS X. For me, it’s the key to my continued loyalty to the Apple ecosystem.


----------



## Simon Ravn (Oct 10, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> As I may have posted a few times  the reason is that computers reached a performance plateau about ten years ago, and they're now long-term investments.
> 
> How many people just in this thread - me included - are happily using (upgraded) 9-year-old computers?



I am (happily using a 2009/2010 Mac Pro). But what worries me is that this thing won't last forever. CPU's and components getting stressed a lot each day and one day it'll fail. And over time so will all 2009/2010 Mac Pro's and there'll be nothing new from Apple to buy as a replacement.

Which is why I desperately hope they won't fuck up the new Mac Pro release. Not holding my breath though, as they might come up with a too locked down system to be useful, rasonably affordable and upgradeable for what I/we do.


----------



## Vik (Oct 10, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> How many people just in this thread - me included - are happily using (upgraded) 9-year-old computers?


I replaced my 10 year old (8-core) Mac Pro not long ago with an 8 year old (12-core) Mac Pro. I'll add more RAM and a a new graphics card to the Mac before I consider buying a new Mac. The 12 core with 32 gb RAM cost me 10% of what the current fully spec'd Mac Pro would cost, or 5-6% of what a fully spec'd iMac Pro would cost me.

The 25% sales tax here and the 60-80% increased dollar rate (compared with last time I bought a Mac) makes it hard to legitimate buying a new Mac, especially since *if* I ever do that again, I plan to keep it for another 10 years.

Unless Apple's upcoming modular concept is truly modular (in that you can start with, say, an 8-core and add more cores later), they may actually risk pricing themselves out of the freelancer market music makers usually have been a part of. 

But they certainly know how to make money. I wish they would have the same kind of respect for how music makers make money, and for instance start to list composers when listening to music on phones, AppleTV etc. This isn't a fair game.


----------



## procreative (Oct 10, 2018)

All my Macs in probably the last 10-12 years have been refurbs or end of line and I have been using them since my first Mac Plus in 1988. I used to try to get the latest model, but in the last 10 years I dont think the CPU gains have made as much impact on day to day use as a lot of the software just was not programmed to make best use of them (certainly when it came to dual processors).

Then the Vader Mac just did not appeal, I dont like the non-modularity of it and there comes a point when you have many peripherals with connectors that just wont work without stupid workarounds eg Firewire, USB, PCIE etc.

My Macbook is a 2010 as they stupidly ended the 17" in 2011, cannot bring myself to squint at a 15" as my dayjob involves a lot of photo retouching and the scrolling... I would like 16GB RAM at least but thats a no go in the 2010.

But secondhand Macbooks can be a risky proposition as the screens are often shit and the casing usually dented all over from some cack handed owner.

I know its inevitable that my 2009 Mac Pro beefed up to pretend its a 2010 but with a dual CPU, SATA 3 SSDs and more RAM than was ever intended (128GB) will soon stop working with the latest Logic Pro X version without an OS upgrade that will likely not install on it, but until then...


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 10, 2018)

Simon Ravn said:


> I am (happily using a 2009/2010 Mac Pro). But what worries me is that this thing won't last forever. CPU's and components getting stressed a lot each day and one day it'll fail. And over time so will all 2009/2010 Mac Pro's and there'll be nothing new from Apple to buy as a replacement.
> 
> Which is why I desperately hope they won't fuck up the new Mac Pro release. Not holding my breath though, as they might come up with a too locked down system to be useful, rasonably affordable and upgradeable for what I/we do.



The 2009/10 gets a lot hotter than older computers (because of its power), i.e. it does take more stress than older machines. But for example I have a PowerMac 9600 from the '90s in my room that still works perfectly, and I'm pretty sure a IIci buried in my garage somewhere still works!

So I don't worry about the machine failing, for that reason and also because you can just replace boards or the whole processor tray.

But yeah, it's going to become outdated at some point, so I hope they come out with machines that are more appropriate for our uses.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Oct 10, 2018)

Levon said:


> I’ve always wanted to jump ship to Logic Pro. A big driver for that is studios and musicians that i’ve used and collaborated with on my pop material have been Logic users



I was in the same situation in 2013...the only difference is that it was for post production reasons (scoring to pic) as opposed to recording live instruments. I took the plunge and paid $2800 for the top-end MacBook pro at the time; best move ever. Five years later, it's still going strong and has been totally reliable (unlike my PC's for the previous 20+ years). You might pay more up front, but it's money well spent IMO. I still use Cubase for certain projects, but Logic Pro is my primary DAW. And honestly, Logic has crashed like maybe two or three times in the past five years, and it was due to a faulty plugin.


----------



## procreative (Oct 10, 2018)

Still amazes me to think my Mac Plus had no hard drive, the OS and everything you ran was on a single density floppy disc (128k if I remember right and it had something like 256kb RAM).

Now that also tells me how disciplined the software programmers must have been!

OS software now has way to much crap bloating it in comparison.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 10, 2018)

procreative said:


> Still amazes me to think my Mac Plus had no hard drive, the OS and everything you ran was on a single density floppy disc (128k if I remember right and it had something like 256kb RAM).
> 
> Now that also tells me how disciplined the software programmers must have been!
> 
> OS software now has way to much crap bloating it in comparison.



Well, the machines today are powerful enough to run all that crap, so whether the word "bloated" applies is open to debate.

Having said that, I'm always surprised at how fast the PowerMac 9600 OS 9 Finder is!

But you did still want to turn off the menu clock to save CPU cycles, even at that stage.

***

I bought a hard drive with my Mac Plus. It was a 30MB CMS SCSI one that cost $650.

Also, didn't the Mac Plus have a massive 1MB of memory? Wasn't that the Plus part? I vaguely remember upgrading the memory to 4MB. But I know the original one was 128K.

And that wasn't very long ago by most measures!


----------



## procreative (Oct 10, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Also, didn't the Mac Plus have a massive 1MB of memory? Wasn't that the Plus part? I vaguely remember upgrading the memory to 4MB. But I know the original one was 128K.



Yes I think you are right! I got mine secondhand of a guy who had bought it to write his thesis on (always wondered why he bought a Mac for that.

It had a small 8 inch greyscale screen, but seemed like utopia at the time!


----------



## JEPA (Oct 10, 2018)

(i'm a mac user) If i were the OP and would step for the first time on Mac i would buy a second hand refurbished Mac Pro or iMac, for £1500 and buy Software, Controllers for £2500, if £4000 is you budget... In case of no satisfaction you can always think about buying in the future a PC again and use the mac as a slave computer. Just thinking..


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 10, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> So I'd say this is not the time to sell your AAPL stock - unless you believe this is a good time to get out of the market in general, because you think a recession is coming soon. I don't. Well, I mean one is always coming, but it's not like last time when the economy was being driven by a housing bubble.



And of course today the entire market tanked.

This proves what I always say: the way to get rich is to watch what I do - and do the opposite.


----------



## Dewdman42 (Oct 10, 2018)

my cardinal rule in investing is go the opposite direction of everyone else. When the building is on fire and everyone is running out...go in there and claim it. When everyone wants back in, get the hell out.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 11, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> my cardinal rule in investing is go the opposite direction of everyone else. When the building is on fire and everyone is running out...go in there and claim it. When everyone wants back in, get the hell out.



That's my strategy too, and read my last post. 

Seriously, stocks reflect expected future earnings. So your cardinal rule is that people always have incorrect information.

Sorry, I'm not hiring you as my financial planner. You're even dumber than I am when it comes to investment!


----------



## Dewdman42 (Oct 11, 2018)

only in a think tank do stocks accurately reflect future earnings. they swing up and down all the time, having absolutely nothing to do with earnings and everything to do with spooked out or overly enthusiastic masses of people. The stock market is often times just barely a step away from las vegas.

The strategy to go the opposite direction as everyone else is a well known strategy, I am not alone in this. The masses of people typically are late to the game. What happens is that some stuff is successful from people that bought early when things were looking grim. Then things got a lot better and they made a lot of money. Then all their friends say, "hey I want to make a lot of money too", so they all jump in, driving up the values, for a while, but it becomes over inflated at some point because all of those people jumped in over-optimistically and too late to the game, they already missed the buy opportunity back before when things looked grim.

When you see the most people flocking into it and driving prices way up, that is when you want to get out. And visa versa, when they are dumping it like crazy, you buy...that is presuming you think they have future potential earnings.


----------



## galactic orange (Oct 11, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> When you see the most people flocking into it and driving prices way up, that is when you want to get out. And visa versa, when they are dumping it like crazy, you buy...that is presuming you think they have future potential earnings.


So do the opposite of what everyone else does, except with a set delay time. Got it.

When is that new Mini getting here? I'd like a new Mac to run Logic on. Otherwise I'll have to settle for a refurbished trash can or 6-core iMac. The money is burning a hole in my wallet. I hope Apple takes their Logic users more seriously and updates hardware to match their software appropriately.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 11, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> The strategy to go the opposite direction as everyone else is a well known strategy, I am not alone in this



Everyone with money in the stock market other than you and the people who you are not alone with is an idiot?


----------



## charlieclouser (Oct 12, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> We put our "gambling" money in AAPL around 12 years ago, and it's gone up about 11X. Unfortunately that wasn't a whole lot, but I'm not complaining.



I've been long on AAPL since John Sculley was CEO. That's how much I like the taste of the kool-aid. Haven't sold a single share yet.


----------



## Soundhound (Oct 12, 2018)

If I'd bought only Apple stock in the 90s I could be writing music in my house in the Caribbean right now. If I'd bought one or more of those lofts we were looking at in Tribeca in the early 90s, same thing. When apple comes out with a time machine, I'm getting one. Problem is it'll look great, be easy to use and work about 60% of the time, so I'll end up growing old in the 19th century somewhere....


----------



## charlieclouser (Oct 12, 2018)

Soundhound said:


> If I'd bought only Apple stock in the 90s I could be writing music in my house in the Caribbean right now. If I'd bought one or more of those lofts we were looking at in Tribeca in the early 90s, same thing. When apple comes out with a time machine, I'm getting one. Problem is it'll look great, be easy to use and work about 60% of the time, so I'll end up growing old in the 19th century somewhere....



 Exactly. "All I tried to do was update TimeTravelOS to the latest version, and now I'm stuck in the Pre-Cambrian era!"


----------



## Soundhound (Oct 12, 2018)

Watch out for that Mars-sized object that's going to crash into earth and form the moon... On the other hand that supercontinent probably makes travel very convenient... 



charlieclouser said:


> Exactly. "All I tried to do was update TimeTravelOS to the latest version, and now I'm stuck in the Pre-Cambrian era!"


----------



## lpuser (Oct 12, 2018)

Vik said:


> Apple could hire 10 mill. USD worth of developers/year to speed up the development in the areas that hasn't gotten much focus/hire more QA people etc.



You are aware of the fact that there is a full team of people (aka the former Emagic crew and more) are working on Logic? Honestly I cannot see how things should go faster, because in my opinion Logic updates were pushed out very frequently during the last 1.5 years. Development takes time and testing and more people are not a guarantee that it will work out faster, because a larger team can introduce considerably more issues than a smaller, flexible and dedicated one with less organisational overhead and short times to action.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 12, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> I've been long on AAPL since John Sculley was CEO. That's how much I like the taste of the kool-aid. Haven't sold a single share yet.



That means it's grown from roughly 1 to 222!

Not bad.


----------



## Vik (Oct 12, 2018)

lpuser said:


> You are aware of the fact that there is a full team of people (aka the former Emagic crew and more) are working on Logic? Honestly I cannot see how things should go faster, because in my opinion Logic updates were pushed out very frequently during the last 1.5 years.


Maybe the old, full team is still there, I wouldn't know, but I'm sure most of them are still around, and others too. I'm not saying that there isn't a team working on Logic - the last update certainly proves that there is.

But in terms of "I cannot see how things should go faster": it's a question of priorities. Cubase had, for instance, expression maps almost 10 years before Logic got their Articulation Sets. Steinberg and Avid have had a dedicated staff working on notation only for a long time; Avid took over Sibelius in 2006, Steinberg took over the original Sibelius team about 5 years ago - while *many* of the wishes I and many I know have had for Logic since before Logic 8 was released still aren't implemented. So it's not about "how things could go faster", but about what kind of priorities Apple has for Logic. 


Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those "Logic is dead" guys. We certainly have seen some nice stuff since the Logic 8 days. But it looks as if Apple has a rather extreme lack of interest in composition related features and the situation of composers in general (since they mention all kinds of stuff about a piece when listening to them - except who wrote it).

Things have gotten a little better lately, but the thing about not mentioning composers etc is something which should have been in there (in iTunes) from day one.

Having said that, Apple is extremely successful when it comes to making money, and I respect them for that. But they're not the company they were, they're a mainly a phone/car/watch/"post PC" company. 

One of the reasons why they have so much success is maybe the fact that they ignore/postpone the kind of wishes a small group like composers and VI users often have, and go for what most people want: entertainment and 'pop culture'. 


Logic is soon 30 years old, but is still missing solutions for wishes like multiple automation lanes in the editors, ability to move channel strips in the mixer, a customisable colour palette, a lot of score functionality, full freeze (which unloads samples and other RAM), a separate unload function doing the same (important for large templates), proper track naming (as opposed to channel strip naming), proper display of accidentals... and much more.

Some of the stuff I personally miss the most are some of the composing oriented features Sibelius has had for a long time (which Dorico, made by the same team, doesn't have either). So I'm not saying that there are someone out there who does everything/most stuff that's important for users like myself right. I just wish there was.

If almost 30 years of development without all these functions is 'fast' for you, at least one of us need to redefine how we use 'fast'. 

When Apple acquired Emagic, they had maybe around 10 000 employees. Now they have more than 120 000. Maybe 50 of these work on Logic related stuff? Whatever the number is, I think the staff should have been large enough to give the kind of users I'm talking about more attention.


----------



## lpuser (Oct 12, 2018)

Vik said:


> Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those "Logic is dead" guys.



No worries, I absolutely understand what you mean, but I think it´s important to see that Logic does not want to compete with Cubase or ProTools. You are right with your examples, however please don´t forget that Logic did have things which other DAWs did not have - and when comparing, it was often ahead in terms CPU useage and performance of on the Mac platform.

There were a few enhancements in the notation areas and if this is important for you, then it´s an absolutely valid point to say that not much happened. Personally, I have not used notation for a single time over the past 15 years and so do many others. Maybe those who are looking into profession notations go for other products, such as Dorico?

And I see your point regarding Apple being successful in terms of making money - believe me, I am e.g. not happy with the current hardware lineup. Not enough expansion ports on the Macbooks, no Pro version without touchbar, no new Mac Pro, removing the headphone jack from the i-devices ... all bad, but this does really not mean that the developement team is not doing their absolute best and it is certainly not about the money, because Logic is one of the highest grossing products on the App Store.



Vik said:


> If almost 30 years of development without all these functions is 'fast' for you, at least one of us need to redefine how we use 'fast'.



LOL, well we realise how old the earth is, then 30 years is indeed nothing. But more seriously, like I wrote above, there are different priorities and many wishes have been fullfilled in the past (also compared to other DAWs).



Vik said:


> When Apple acquired Emagic, they had maybe around 10 000 employees. Now they have more than 120 000. Maybe 50 of these work on Logic related stuff?



But when Apple acquired Emagic, they took over the Emagic staff who did an excellent job back then and still do so today. At that time, Apple was not active in many other areas they are today, so this does explain the growing number of employees.

Having a bit of expertise in software development, I am still thinking that expanded staff does not necessarily mean fast development or better products, because merging things together becomes way more complicated. Believe me, Logic is getting a lot of love these days ...


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 12, 2018)

Vik said:


> Logic is soon 30 years old, but is still missing solutions for wishes like multiple automation lanes in the editors, ability to move channel strips in the mixer, a customisable colour palette,



You do know it has multiple automation lanes in the main window, right? And that you can display multiple MIDI controller lanes in the Step Editor?

You can move channel strips (and much more) if you create a mixer in the Environment. I have everything set up that way in my templates for navigation, although I usually use the regular mixer for mixing.

A customizable color palette... not sure what that means. You can color tracks and regions.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 12, 2018)

Vik said:


> full freeze (which unloads samples and other RAM), a separate unload function doing the same (important for large templates), proper track naming (as opposed to channel strip naming), proper display of accidentals... and much more.



Full freeze (?) or any kind of unloading samples seems outdated to me. It was a great feature in the 32-bit days when you could only access maybe 3GB of samples - not that I've ever used it in my life. But today? Lots of people have 128GB of RAM. I "only" have 64, and can't come close to filling more than about 45GB no matter how hard I try.

Proper track name vs. channel strips... you can name tracks, channel strips, and regions. I don't understand.

And can you explain what you mean by proper display of accidentals? It's true that they haven't added many features to the score editor for a long time (although they have fixed things).

In general, they've concentrated their development on things like Drummer, adding Alchemy, the new Smart Tempo editor, new Strings and Horns libraries, and Articulation Maps (definitely a composer feature).

I'm not necessarily arguing with your feature wants, but at least some of them seem like you're conflating how you'd like to work with how Logic works instead.


----------



## Vik (Oct 12, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> You do know it has multiple automation lanes in the main window, right? And that you can display multiple MIDI controller lanes in the Step Editor?


Sure.

And I know one can move channel strips (and much more) in the Environment.

A customisable colour palette means to allow users to customise their colour palette, like we used to be able to do in Logic's earlier versions. See this site's Logic wishlist/poll, it's a wish many users are missing in Logic.

https://vi-control.net/community/th...l-logic-suggestions-please-keep-voting.52022/


----------



## Vik (Oct 12, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Full freeze (?) or any kind of unloading samples seems outdated to me. It was a great feature in the 32-bit days when you could only access maybe 3GB of samples - not that I've ever used it in my life. But today? Lots of people have 128GB of RAM.



Laptops can't have more than 32, and my guess is that most users don't have 128 or even 64 gb. If you work with Kontakt based templates, they use a lot of RAM, even with all the samples purged. Cubase has this function, and it's often mentioned as one of the reasons they choose Cubase over Logic.


"Proper track name vs. channel strips... you can name tracks, channel strips, and regions. I don't understand."
Users are generally confused about this, because Apple uses the term track name in a confusing way. But look here:






I could write a lot about what's wrong with Logic's track naming, but the short version is that there isn't a dedicated track name option in Logic. You can create track names in some situations, but a dedicated track name funciton would make life easier and less confusing.


"And can you explain what you mean by proper display of accidentals?"
Sure. This is how triads should be displayed, automatically (screenshot from Sibelius):






Try to record the same triads in Logic and compare...

In Logic, due to how it handles accidentals, you can't even be sure that you see all the notes in your chord (in the score editor).

And of course, I know that Logic now has an articulation editor and that this is a great move for VI composers.


----------



## Vik (Oct 12, 2018)

Vik said:


> Try to record the same triads in Logic and compare...


I'll save you some time... 






Not only do almost half of them look just wrong, they don't look like triads. This makes even simple material harder to sight read, and makes many people assume that reading notation is more difficult than it actually is. Besides, in the event lists/event float, everything is displayed with sharps, even if you have defined that the song is n a flat key. This hasn't been improved since the Logic development started (in the late 1980s, if I'm not mistaken).


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 12, 2018)

Thass messed up.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 12, 2018)

Vik said:


> Laptops can't have more than 32, and my guess is that most users don't have 128 or even 64 gb. If you work with Kontakt based templates, they use a lot of RAM, even with all the samples purged



I work with Kontakt-based templates (and others - Play, etc.), and I could get by with 32GB. As I've posted before, this takes up under 40GB, depending on what mood my Mac is in:


----------



## Vik (Oct 13, 2018)

Hi again Nick, many users get by with 32 gb. I do that now, but will put 32 gb more into my MP within not too long.
But nevertheless, a solution which had "Freeze and unload" would be better than just a freeze function. And a way to create templates with unloaded sample- and Kontakt RAM is a better solution the not having that option. And Cubase users are really happy about having that option; it was actually one of the reasons I bought Cubase (still pretty much use only Logic).


Referring to that Logic poll again, here are the most popular suggestions (having removed stuff which has been implemented since that poll started):

All MIDI editors should have multiple region automation/multiple hyper edit lanes (like Cubase etc)

Ability to move channel strips in the Mixer

Make the colour palette customisable

A way to easily control CC/articulations for all libraries using the same commands (partially implemented)

Logic shouldn't be relying on a single core for realtime jobs

Streamline the workflow for Kontakt CC automation (like Cubase and others)

AUs should be able to send Midi out

General score/MIDI/composing improvements

A pencil tool which freely can draw curved lines

Folders/Stacks: more flexibility with regards to parent/children relationships

Ability to mark presets as favourites

Focus on features which are useful for making better compositions, not just better mixes

Undo for everything, including fader moves/separate Undo for the Mixer

Transparent audio regions (see grid through regions)

“Save selected tracks as new project”

Freeze (and/or the track on/off button) should optionally also load/unload Kontakt samples

Improve Flex Time/Better quality when time-stretching

Built in tape emulation

Score: The ability to enter notes on an iPad with a Stylus and have them pop up in Score

Score needs a lot more attention from Apple, and I'm willing to pay for it

Less confusing track naming

Make Smart Controls a lot smarter

---

There are a number of improvements that some of us find essential which still are missing in Logic after all these years. Of course we hope they would be implemented asap. It isn't more dramatic than that. 

In addition to that listening to more score/composer/VI-user wishes, I hope the the good stuff we have seen coming lately, like articulation sets (which can end up being much better than the Cubase solution) will be fine tuned as well. I hope the articulation sets will grow into a 'complete' feature which doesn't make us find out which 3rd part enhancements we need to buy to get the best results. Apple should send the 3rd part developers a bag full of money and let them help finalising what could be the best possible expression maps out there.




Nick Batzdorf said:


> In general, they've concentrated their development on things like Drummer, adding Alchemy, the new Smart Tempo editor, new Strings and Horns libraries, and Articulation Maps (definitely a composer feature).


Sure, and the new tempo recognition stuff is also on the way to become really useful. For the records, I posted these two examples some days ago showing that they already can be a helpful tool for those who us who prefer to compose without a metronome:


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 13, 2018)

Some very good feature requests there. I especially like the transparent regions idea.

So your Smart Tempo examples - first, nice classical improv. Second, I'd just use beat mapping to clean up the areas that aren't quite right. It would be nice if you didn't have to bounce MIDI parts to audio to do that, but at least they made Smart Tempo work with MIDI.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 13, 2018)

I still don't give a FF about freezing, by the way. 

But we all use Logic differently.

The one feature that got me excited is the improved Smart Tempo. I'd like it to be really easy to noodle without a click, map the beats, quantize most of it (because I'm a keyboard almost-player), and then remove all the tempo changes (which are usually there only because I'm a keyboard almost-player, not because they're intentional).


----------



## Vik (Oct 13, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> So your Smart Tempo examples - first, nice classical improv. Second, I'd just use beat mapping to clean up the areas that aren't quite right. It would be nice if you didn't have to bounce MIDI parts to audio to do that, but at least they made Smart Tempo work with MIDI.


You don't have to bounce MIDI parts to audio anymore. Check 10.4.2! 
Re. areas that weren't right... none of them were, right since I just played something without listening to any click. The result would be better with Beat Mapping, but a combination of this new 'auto-beat-mapping' function and manual adjustments afterwards (either with BM or using the new tempo editor) is a good solution.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 13, 2018)

I think you still have to bounce MIDI to audio if you use Beat Mapping in the ruler? You know, the old system where you drag a bar to line it up to a transient?

EDIT: No, you're right. Coolio!


----------



## Vik (Oct 14, 2018)

lpuser said:


> I think it´s important to see that Logic does not want to compete with Cubase or ProTools.


With all due respect, whether Apple wants Logic to compete with Cubase, Pro Tools etc or not: the reality is that the DAW market is (among VI users) dominated by Cubase, Logic and Pro Tools and some other DAWs, and that all users look at the options that are available before they buy something. So there is competition.




> You are right with your examples, however please don´t forget that Logic did have things which other DAWs did not have


You are right. When Logic Audio, for instance was released, it could do thing with PT/TDM hardware even Pro Tools couldn't do. But that was last century.



> There were a few enhancements in the notation areas and if this is important for you, then it´s an absolutely valid point to say that not much happened.


Well, whether we like it or not: notation is the alphabet for music. If one wants to develop as a musician and composer and don't understand the alphabet, you'll notice that those who do have some important benefits in terms of studying others works, learning advanced harmony stuff, figure out more interesting voices etc. Try to teach two equally motivated students playing piano, and use notation with only one of them, and you'll see what I mean. There are of course great musicians and song writes who don't use notation, but if they could read and write notation, they'd most likely be even greater the way I see it.



> Maybe those who are looking into profession notations go for other products, such as Dorico?


Sure, Dorico is great in many ways. I bought Dorico after years of frustration with Logic's score editor lacking stuff I found essential. But Dorico can't even record MIDI, and in spite of being developed by the old Sibelius team, they haven't implemented several of the Sibelius features I find most important yet. If you want to create music (as opposed to be an engraver) in Dorico, you need to be e x t r e m e l y patient.





> At that time, Apple was not active in many other areas they are today, so this does explain the growing number of employees.


To some degree, yes. But Apple have the ash it takes to be generous enough to develop notation and composing related areas even if it won't make them richer. The problem is, the way I see it, that they aren't interested enough. That also explains why they sell all this music created by fantastic composers and song writers (who of course are the true originators of these 'products') without even mentioning who they are. I wouldn't be surprised if a company owned by Donald Trump would do that, but Apple doing that is unforgivable.



> I am still thinking that expanded staff does not necessarily mean fast development or better products


 Believe me - I don't think more people working on Logic automatically means that Logic will get better. But if things are done right, having more people working an Logic will make it better, and that's what I'm talking about. My guess is that if you would go to Rellingen and ask the Logic staff, they would agree.


----------

