# Jacob Collier on Music Theory



## karelpsota

*EDIT: Just added part 2 below*

Very interesting concepts such as negative harmony.
He's also coming up with his own theories... fascinating.



Topics:
1. Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-Meta Lydian (0:02)
2. Negative Harmony (1:30)
3. 5th and 4th Theory (3:27)
4. You and I (6:15)
5. Harmonizer (8:43)
6. Microtonal Voice Leading (10:12)

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Topics:
1. Negative Harmony again (0:07)
2. Tuning (5:35)
3. Groove and Subdivision (10:58)
4. This Thing on the Harmonizer (16:24)
5. Crazy She Calls me / Voice Leading (18:03)
6. Emotion vs Information (22:16)
7. Close to You / Voice Leading (31:02)
8. The Human Voice (32:53)


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## resound

I've watched this at least 8 times. It's amazing.


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## byzantium

Watched it twice already. Unreal. The perfect pitch really comes through. Incredible ability, skills, understanding, enthousiasm and communication.


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## heisenberg

Incredible. Thanks for posting.


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## artomatic

A few years ago, when he made his YouTube debut, I had a feeling it was just a matter of time when he and his musical genius will be discovered and appreciated. His one-man band concert is amazing! Much respect to JC!


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## AlexRuger

Man I just wanna sit and talk with him about this stuff! Seems like such a cool dude.


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## Rctec

He's truly amazing! We worked together on a score recently and just did a concert at Coachella last week. You can't believe that such profound musicality exists in someone that young (and nice!)
I'm planning my next project with him!


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## jononotbono

Rctec said:


> He's truly amazing! We worked together on a score recently and just did a concert at Coachella last week. You can't believe that such profound musicality exists in someone that young (and nice!)
> I'm planning my next project with him!



This sounds really exciting. The guy is out of this world! When i first heard about him, my ears pricked up as soon as I saw he was already mixing with Herbie Hancock and Quincy Jones.


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## Chris D

Literally incredible, been watching a lot of this little Mozart recently.


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## Daniel James

I know some of these words.


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## Dave Connor

Right up there with his brilliant harmonic understanding and use is an extraordinary display of rhythmic invention that goes hand in hand with it. A wunderkind to be sure.


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## tokatila

I hate videos to remind me how average I am, like I wouldn't know it already.


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## Christof

tokatila said:


> I hate videos to remind me how average I am, like I wouldn't know it already.


Same here!


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## Uncle Peter

kin' ell ... I'll get back to my powerchords then..


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## Luke W

I didn't comprehend the negative harmony explanation, particularly the "crossing the C-G axis" to arrive at the negative chord. I get how G7 to C is a "bright" resolution, while the Fm6 to C is a "dark" but just as strong resolution. But I don't get the crossing the Eb axis to convert from G7 to Fm6, i.e. how the notes of the G7 chord become the notes of the Fm6 chord. Could someone smarter explain that bit?


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## bryla

Luke W said:


> I didn't comprehend the negative harmony explanation, particularly the "crossing the C-G axis" to arrive at the negative chord. I get how G7 to C is a "bright" resolution, while the Fm6 to C is a "dark" but just as strong resolution. But I don't get the crossing the Eb axis to convert from G7 to Fm6, i.e. how the notes of the G7 chord become the notes of the Fm6 chord. Could someone smarter explain that bit?


How I arrived at it:
The middle of the C-G axis is E half-flat. Going the same distance down from E half-flat as you would go up to arrive at G, you end up down at C. From G the next note up is B – a major third; the next note down a major third from C is A flat. Continuing the same pattern down as you would up the G7 you arrive at (from top to bottom): C Ab F D.
However I have to get my hand on the book.


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## Luke W

bryla said:


> How I arrived at it:
> The middle of the C-G axis is E half-flat. Going the same distance down from E half-flat as you would go up to arrive at G, you end up down at C. From G the next note up is B – a major third; the next note down a major third from C is A flat. Continuing the same pattern down as you would up the G7 you arrive at (from top to bottom): C Ab F D.
> However I have to get my hand on the book.


I see how that works - thanks!
So do you use the same C-G axis to determine the negative harmony of any other chord in the key of C? Or does the axis shift depending on the chord you happen to be resolving to?


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## AdamAlake

Eh, not a fan of being heavily invested in theory in composition.


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## bryla

Luke W said:


> I see how that works - thanks!
> So do you use the same C-G axis to determine the negative harmony of any other chord in the key of C? Or does the axis shift depending on the chord you happen to be resolving to?


I don't know honestly! I'm also trying to figure out how other axis would work. 
Using theory in this way is extremely helpful to force yourself to hear new things.


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## NoamL

The part where he equally subdivided the intervals blew my mind 

The person who's interviewing him is a bit of a mad genius too, he is June Lee and he's done some AMAZING transcriptions of Jacob's work:



Jacob's done some collabs with Snarky Puppy who are a whole nother thing themselves:



This is real musician's music, geeky to the extreme, demanding the utmost from the performers.


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## Chris D

NoamL said:


> The part where he equally subdivided the intervals blew my mind
> 
> The person who's interviewing him is a bit of a mad genius too, he is June Lee and he's done some AMAZING transcriptions of Jacob's work:
> 
> 
> 
> Jacob's done some collabs with Snarky Puppy who are a whole nother thing themselves:
> 
> 
> 
> This is real musician's music, geeky to the extreme, demanding the utmost from the performers.



LOVE Snarky Puppy, Cory Henry is just an alien on the keys.


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## resound

Luke W said:


> I see how that works - thanks!
> So do you use the same C-G axis to determine the negative harmony of any other chord in the key of C? Or does the axis shift depending on the chord you happen to be resolving to?


The axis would shift, so it would always be the note between the minor third and the major third. Another, maybe easier, way is to think of the axis related to the circle of fifths. If you draw a line between C and G on the circle of fifths and fold it in half, then C is on top of G, D is on top of F, Bb is on top of A, etc. So you could pivot the axis depending what key you are in and find the results pretty easily.


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## Leandro Gardini

These guys are amazing. Their perfect pitch and interest in devepoling their skills make them far beyond average.
A lot of people gifted with perfect pitch think that this is everything they need to be successfull but as far as I can see, these guys are concerned in developing their talent also.
There isn't anything new in Jacob's theories that I haven't seen before under a much simpler nomenclature but what stand out is his ability to make something good out of them.
Also, great work of the editor of this video. He/she made it much better for us to understand.
Those guys have a bright future ahead!


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## byzantium

Jacob Collier, Cory Henry, these guys are just so out of this world, words fail...! 
We could have a whole separate thread on Cory Henry - the 'Rio Workshop' on youtube is fantastic, not only his amazing talent, but how he gels with the other players, and the reaction from the crowd. Now back to Jacob...


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## jonathanparham

lol Cory Henry and Jacob Collier. Got it. Added to my playlists


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## Saxer

I saw Jacob Colliers solo live show a couple of month ago. He's such a brilliant and creative musician! Nice and modest guy too, good communicator and entertainer. Even looking good. He got everything to become an arrogant a..hole but he absolutely is not! The world can't be a bad place when still creating such people.


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## bryla

Still have to get the book but read this thread : https://www.google.dk/amp/s/www.talkbass.com/threads/negative-harmony.533862/?amp=1239258372


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## resound

bryla said:


> Still have to get the book but read this thread : https://www.google.dk/amp/s/www.talkbass.com/threads/negative-harmony.533862/?amp=1239258372


They are talking about mirror harmony in that thread which is a slightly different concept than negative harmony which Jacob Collier is talking about.


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## Joram

But what is the use of negative harmony?


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## Rasmus Hartvig

Joram said:


> But what is the use of negative harmony?


I see it as a nice way to spice up / develop your chord progressions. Converting "everything perfect into plagal" as Jacob puts it is definitely in interesting thing to do with old rote turnarounds. Love the warm spicyness of the Eb-6 Bb-6 F-6 C progression in the video (though the audio example spices those chords up with additional extensions)


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## Rasmus Hartvig

resound said:


> The axis would shift, so it would always be the note between the minor third and the major third.


In the example in the video, that's not the case. A7 becoming Eb-6 is a result of mirroring the chord tones around E-half-flat (axis of C major) A7 becomes G-6 if mirrored around an A-E axis.


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## Rowy

He's a nice guy. I heard nothing new though, except for the way he explains good ol' harmony. Funny he called the flat scales the dark side. That is very personal, as it is with colours. Some musicians associate a scale with a colour, but they all have a different opinion. If it comes to keys, there's also no consencus.

It's good to see this kind of enthusiasm in a young musician.


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## Luke W

Rowy said:


> He's a nice guy. I heard nothing new though, except for the way he explains good ol' harmony. Funny he called the flat scales the dark side. That is very personal, as it is with colours. Some musicians associate a scale with a colour, but they all have a different opinion. If it comes to keys, there's also no consencus.


I didn't take that to mean flat scales are the dark side, just that motion that goes counter-clockwise on the circle of fifths creates resolutions that sound darker, while moving clockwise sounds brighter. Playing a C chord resolving to an F (counter-clockwise motion) sounds dark compared to a C chord resolving clockwise to a G chord. I hadn't really noticed that - and it seems counter-intuitive since C to F is the good old V-I resolution and C to G is VI-I. But played in isolation, I hear C to F as a darker resolution and C to G as a brighter one. Nothing do to without flat keys, sharp keys - it's the direction on the circle of fifths. It works with Ab to Eb compared to Ab to Db.


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## resound

Rasmus Hartvig said:


> In the example in the video, that's not the case. A7 becoming Eb-6 is a result of mirroring the chord tones around E-half-flat (axis of C major) A7 becomes G-6 if mirrored around an A-E axis.


That's because the progression (A7 D7 G7 C) is still in the key of C, so you are correct the axis is still the same. What I meant is that the axis shifts depending on the key, not for each individual chord.


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## Rowy

Luke W said:


> I didn't take that to mean flat scales are the dark side, just that motion that goes counter-clockwise on the circle of fifths creates resolutions that sound darker, while moving clockwise sounds brighter. Playing a C chord resolving to an F (counter-clockwise motion) sounds dark compared to a C chord resolving clockwise to a G chord. I hadn't really noticed that - and it seems counter-intuitive since C to F is the good old V-I resolution and C to G is VI-I. But played in isolation, I hear C to F as a darker resolution and C to G as a brighter one. Nothing do to without flat keys, sharp keys - it's the direction on the circle of fifths. It works with Ab to Eb compared to Ab to Db.



I'm sorry but that doesn't change a thing. There is no clockwise or counter-clockwise motion. These kind of motions are theoretical, as is the circle of fifths. If I would want to find an explanation for the 'dark' or 'bright' feeling, I would examine the intervals of the bass tones of the chords.

C to F upwards is a smaller jump than C to G upwards. C to F downwards is a bigger 'fall' than C to G downwards. A bigger fall is darker than an higher jump. That's one explanation. There is more to be said, but I'm retired and I do need my rest


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## Rasmus Hartvig

resound said:


> That's because the progression (A7 D7 G7 C) is still in the key of C, so you are correct the axis is still the same. What I meant is that the axis shifts depending on the key, not for each individual chord.



Ah yeah. Sorry about that - you're right


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## Rasmus Hartvig

Luke W said:


> I didn't take that to mean flat scales are the dark side, just that motion that goes counter-clockwise on the circle of fifths creates resolutions that sound darker, while moving clockwise sounds brighter. Playing a C chord resolving to an F (counter-clockwise motion) sounds dark compared to a C chord resolving clockwise to a G chord.


He's actually talking about the opposite: Approaching a key center from it's "dark" or "bright" side - in the example approching C from either side of the circle (plagal / perfect). So F to C is the darker resolution and G to C is the brighter one. In essence: counter-clockwise motion = brighter.


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## resound

It's an interesting theory. The results pretty much lead to borrowed chords from the minor mode which makes sense in the "dark vs. bright" sense.


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## NoamL

On another topic, does anyone know why Jacob would prefer to call it Fm6 instead of Dø or Dm7b5? I guess because he's thinking of it plagally?

In any case, I have heard these chains of halfdims in a lot of film scores. A good example from Williams here at 1:25-1:31



you have Em7b5, Dm7b5, C. Or I suppose Gm6, Fm6, C.


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## NoamL

AdamAlake said:


> Eh, not a fan of being heavily invested in theory in composition.



I get that perspective... but keep in mind that he records these pieces one voice at a time. So what may seem like improvisation or almost free jazz at times, is actually meticulously arranged and composed beforehand. Creating an arrangement that "colors" the particular words the way he wants, and manages consonance and dissonance carefully, is actually really hard and that's where the theory comes in. Certainly a composer doesn't _need_ to know jazz harmony to write great music, much less the advanced theories that Jacob is using. This is Way Out There On The Ledge type stuff that he's writing.

It is a great toolkit for reharmonization though. Check this out!!


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## novaburst

@NoamL beautiful piece from J W, Harry Potter thanks for posting, (Back to topic)


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## resound

NoamL said:


> On another topic, does anyone know why Jacob would prefer to call it Fm6 instead of Dø or Dm7b5? I guess because he's thinking of it plagally?
> 
> In any case, I have heard these chains of halfdims in a lot of film scores. A good example from Williams here at 1:25-1:31
> 
> 
> 
> you have Em7b5, Dm7b5, C. Or I suppose Gm6, Fm6, C.



They are essentially the same chord, depending on the bass note, but I think he may call it Fm6 because IV-I gives you a plagal cadence while ii-I isn't a common cadence. 

In the JW piece I'm hearing an Abdim between the Dø7 and the C which sort of implies an altered ii-V-I


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## jononotbono

NoamL said:


> I get that perspective... but keep in mind that he records these pieces one voice at a time. So what may seem like improvisation or almost free jazz at times, is actually meticulously arranged and composed beforehand. Creating an arrangement that "colors" the particular words the way he wants, and manages consonance and dissonance carefully, is actually really hard and that's where the theory comes in. Certainly a composer doesn't _need_ to know jazz harmony to write great music, much less the advanced theories that Jacob is using. This is Way Out There On The Ledge type stuff that he's writing.
> 
> It is a great toolkit for reharmonization though. Check this out!!




He's insanely great!


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## neblix

NoamL said:


> On another topic, does anyone know why Jacob would prefer to call it Fm6 instead of Dø or Dm7b5? I guess because he's thinking of it plagally?
> 
> In any case, I have heard these chains of halfdims in a lot of film scores. A good example from Williams here at 1:25-1:31
> 
> 
> 
> you have Em7b5, Dm7b5, C. Or I suppose Gm6, Fm6, C.




He prefers to examine theory in terms of circle of fifth movements, so he spots the perfect and plagal movements because that appeals to his musical intuition. A minor plagal cadence with a 6th (iv -> I) fits that intuition more than ii^halfdim -> I.


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## Saxer

Interesting adds:


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## resound

Saxer said:


> Interesting adds:



Wow, great stuff!


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## Rasmus Hartvig

More Jacob, elaborating on negative harmony:


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## noises on

NoamL said:


> The part where he equally subdivided the intervals blew my mind
> 
> The person who's interviewing him is a bit of a mad genius too, he is June Lee and he's done some AMAZING transcriptions of Jacob's work:
> 
> 
> 
> Jacob's done some collabs with Snarky Puppy who are a whole nother thing themselves:
> 
> 
> 
> This is real musician's music, geeky to the extreme, demanding the utmost from the performers.



Listen to Lingus almost daily.


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## Fab

Rasmus Hartvig said:


> More Jacob, elaborating on negative harmony:




Man, he makes music theory so fun.


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## neblix

NoamL said:


> Jacob's done some collabs with Snarky Puppy who are a whole nother thing themselves:
> 
> 
> 
> This is real musician's music, geeky to the extreme, demanding the utmost from the performers.




Holy shit! Thanks for this. Gonna listen the crap out of this on my drives.


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## karelpsota

Part 2 just came out. His sense of rhythm happens to also be insane.



Topics:
1. Negative Harmony again (0:07)
2. Tuning (5:35)
3. Groove and Subdivision (10:58)
4. This Thing on the Harmonizer (16:24)
5. Crazy She Calls me / Voice Leading (18:03)
6. Emotion vs Information (22:16)
7. Close to You / Voice Leading (31:02)
8. The Human Voice (32:53)


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## mac

My brain just melted a little. He seems to know a thing or two about theory 

What's this guys music like, is it 'good'? I imagine it could go one of two ways.


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## Rasmus Hartvig

Take a listen on YouTube. Almost all his tracks are there.

I happen to think it's totally great, but I can imagine that some might find it too dense or the harmony too inscrutable.


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## mac

Ja, I had a hunt around youtube straight after I posted. It's erm, not really my kind of thing


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## Dave Connor

Actually, his use of theory is precisely what most if not all experts seem to agree on: study it, absorb it and then go play or write without a lot of conscious thought. He's just a brilliant articulate guy and incredibly soulful so it seems he has things just right in the balance of the _emotion and information_ he speaks of.


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## jhughes

Luke W said:


> I didn't comprehend the negative harmony explanation, particularly the "crossing the C-G axis" to arrive at the negative chord. I get how G7 to C is a "bright" resolution, while the Fm6 to C is a "dark" but just as strong resolution. But I don't get the crossing the Eb axis to convert from G7 to Fm6, i.e. how the notes of the G7 chord become the notes of the Fm6 chord. Could someone smarter explain that bit?



Fm6 is the same as a rootless Bb9; meanwhile Bb7(9..whatever) is connected to G7 by minor third concept. 
G7=Bb7=Db7=E7
All of which you can use to go back to C.

I haven't watched all of the videos in detail but I guess I'm not sure why you have to get into an axis to explain that concept? 
I'm assuming he likes the name Fm6 because iv- likes to go back to I and that's how he hears it. That's label I like as well. Some people might call it a bVII7? I say choose one that allows you to hear it better.


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## AlexRuger

Expanding on what jhughes said:

G7 -> C = G doesn't move, B moves a *half step* to C, F moves a *half step* to E, and D moves a _whole step_ to E or C (however you hear it).
Fm6 -> C = C doesn't move, Ab moves a *half step* to G, F moves a *half step* to E, and D moves a _whole step_ to E or C (however you hear it).

I.e. the two chords resolve to C with the exact same "amount" of voice-leading, i.e. 1/4 notes in the chord doesn't move, 2/4 notes in the chord move a *half step*, and 1/4 notes in the chord moves a _whole step_. No surprise since Fm6 is most of the important parts of a G7(b9), which arguably pulls even harder to C than regular old vanilla G7 does.

E7 -> C voice leads almost exactly as Fm6 does because half the notes are the same, except instead of the G not moving, it's the E. Plus, all of the chords he named work as portions of an altered G7, which is why this whole thing works: Like I said, Fm6 feels like a G7(b9), Bb7 is the same if you don't include the root or is a G7(b9,#9) if you do, Db7 is G7 altered, and E7 is G7(b9,13), which is my personal favorite, especially if you play the E as a basic close triad.

Etc etc etc.

If there's any real takeaway from these videos, it's that "the notes being 'functional' doesn't really matter, as long as your voice-leading is strong and has momentum." Copying the voice-leading of the most basic cadence of all, V -> I, is a good way to go if you want to achieve this. His rhythmic ideas could be boiled down to something just as simple: "your polyrhythms don't really matter, as long as you have a pulse." And thus, Meshuggah was born.

There's something interesting about that...voice-leading = rhythmic pulse. It's the glue of Western music. 

For funsies, this is why the last chord in the "Dream Is Collapsing" 4-chord sequence actually makes sense. It's not _exactly_ the same, since the last chord in the sequence is a maj7 chord (Emaj7 -> Cm), but it's close enough that it feels fine:
D#/Eb doesn't move, B moves a half-step to C (this gives us the strongest feeling of a V -> I cadence), G# moves a half-step to G (this too really sells the "coming home" feeling), and E...well, that's the note that kinda screws it all up, unless you count it resolving down a half-step to Eb. I personally feel it as E -> C since those are the roots, and that big non-fourth/fifth jump gives it the "huh, woah?" factor, but the rest of the chord is moving so similarly to a perfect cadence that it doesn't knock the progression off base before heading home.


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## Iskra

Luke W said:


> So do you use the same C-G axis to determine the negative harmony of any other chord in the key of C? Or does the axis shift depending on the chord you happen to be resolving to?


In the key of C you always use that same axis (the point between Eb and E), that will convert every chord in his negative counterpart mantaining the voice leading in that key- If you change the axis you change key. 
Of course if you really changed key, then you should change the axis too.


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## Blackster

This might clear things up! I did a video about negative harmony with no relation to a key whatsoever. You can apply negative harmony to ANY kind of root movement really.


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## MarcusMaximus

mac said:


> Ja, I had a hunt around youtube straight after I posted. It's erm, not really my kind of thing


Nope. You're not allowed to dislike it. It's not a matter of taste or opinion. It's like saying an amazing sunset is not really your kind of thing..

I'm kidding of course, sort of. This guy is without question a phenomenon. His musical talent is astounding and beyond any sort of normality. I happen to like his music as well which helps but the fact is he is a complete genius.

And yes, of course I was kidding so please don't shout at me.


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## mac

MarcusMaximus said:


> Nope. You're not allowed to dislike it. It's not a matter of taste or opinion. It's like saying an amazing sunset is not really your kind of thing..
> 
> I'm kidding of course, sort of. This guy is without question a phenomenon. His musical talent is astounding and beyond any sort of normality. I happen to like his music as well which helps but the fact is he is a complete genius.
> 
> And yes, of course I was kidding so please don't shout at me.



I'm more of a sunrise sort


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## MarcusMaximus

mac said:


> I'm more of a sunrise sort


Ah now you're just nit-picking!


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