# Stumped on 2nd violins...



## theflyingspaghettimonster (Dec 14, 2021)

Hey all, I'm currently in the middle of writing my first orchestral piece and so far it's been going swimmingly! However, I'm a bit stumped on what to write for the second violins. Do I just double the melody in a lower octave, or write some sort of counter-melody (I'm refraining from doing that option so I have something interesting for the cellists!)? Perhaps it's because I don't play any string instruments, but doubling the melody in a lower pitch always sounds discordant.

Any idea on what I could do?


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## Mackieguy (Dec 14, 2021)

Keep experimenting until something resonates. Or double the clarinets. Or ditch them altogether. Maybe sleep on it. 

There’s really no straight answer to this. Not that I know of anyway.


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## Silence-is-Golden (Dec 14, 2021)

short answer: study scores….. iow, look at how (the great) composers have used them.

if you are in the stage, where I think everyone once was, where you don’t know what they are for, then it is good to find out how the 5 sections have come into being as part of the whole string orchestra. Have fun


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## mybadmemory (Dec 14, 2021)

I guess their most common use is harmonical or rhythmical support. But they could do anything really. Double the melody. Double it an octave lower. Play counter. Add harmony. Add rhythm. Or nothing at all.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Dec 14, 2021)

theflyingspaghettimonster said:


> Any idea on what I could do?


Study


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Dec 14, 2021)

Yes, I guess there is no right answer for this. Plus, they don't have to stick to the same role during all the piece, that would be boring. Only study and experience will help!


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## mikeh-375 (Dec 14, 2021)

as above, study, you don't need to be a string player.


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## Henning (Dec 14, 2021)

Violins 2 also have a sort of more detailed sound due to them being fewer players. For certain occasions it is also nice to drop the violins 1 and just let violins 2 play and then later on come in again with the complete string section for added effect.

Most of all, listen and learn, study scores.


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## Troels Folmann (Dec 15, 2021)

I used our Century 2nd Violins on this demo. The arcs, in the beginning, are primarily coming from them. It's a sweet and very intimate sound. Somewhere between the chamber and full orch.


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## d.healey (Dec 15, 2021)

You don't have to use every section all of the time


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## mediumaevum (Dec 15, 2021)

What about an ostinato with short notes (not staccato)?

Take a look at Ralph Vaughan Williams orchestrations.


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## audioarmoury (Dec 15, 2021)

Experiment and find what works best for the piece that you're composing. Arguably there are no wrong answers. Like many of others have said study other scores, use references, consider the dynamics, harmony or counter melody and rhythm. All of these are valid answers. If it is pleasing and reaches the goal you want then you have achieved your desired sound!


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Dec 15, 2021)

In most cases, I prefer using them as harmonic support for the 1st violins, although there's always exceptions (doubling in unison, an octave below, countermelodies, etc.) Here's a short video sharing how I typically arrange:


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## youngpokie (Dec 15, 2021)

theflyingspaghettimonster said:


> Do I just double the melody in a lower octave, or write some sort of counter-melody


You can also flip the thinking: instead of looking for random something to give Violins II to play, you could evaluate and judge your actual melody from perspective of sound quality and timbre. And then use doublings to get it to sound better.

For example: if your melody is in the lower register of Violins I, it might not sound as good as it can. One solution would be to switch Violins I with another string instrument that sounds best in that register (e. g. Violas), then use Violins I to double them an octave higher, _and then_ divide Violins II equally between them.

The same logic works for doubling with non-string instruments. If the string melody is fast with short staccato type of notes, you can emphasize that impression by doubling it with clarinets. Or with oboi or bassoons for slower, song-like melody in strings. And so on. 

In other words, you will be more effective in the beginning if you view orchestral doublings as a sound design tool rather than meandering and randomly throwing stuff to see what sticks. Studying scores and listening to music while trying to understand a specific issue - what doublings were used and exactly why - will also teach you a lot more a lot faster than aimless listening ever will.


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## noldar12 (Dec 15, 2021)

Another reversal option: use 2nd violins for the melody, and have the 1st violins play a higher long sustained note.


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## MusicIstheBest (Dec 15, 2021)

if the sample library doesn't have a 2nd vln section, you're in the clear. write more for violas.


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## Rowy van Hest (Dec 19, 2021)

theflyingspaghettimonster said:


> Hey all, I'm currently in the middle of writing my first orchestral piece and so far it's been going swimmingly! However, I'm a bit stumped on what to write for the second violins. Do I just double the melody in a lower octave, or write some sort of counter-melody (I'm refraining from doing that option so I have something interesting for the cellists!)? Perhaps it's because I don't play any string instruments, but doubling the melody in a lower pitch always sounds discordant.
> 
> Any idea on what I could do?


I don't want to offend you, but I think it would be better if you learned to write 4-part harmony first. Try to write something simple for string quartet: 1st violin, 2nd violin, viola and cello. You can double the cello in a lower octave and there you have your bass. Then orchestrate.


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## Ivan M. (Dec 19, 2021)

Troels Folmann said:


> I used our Century 2nd Violins on this demo. The arcs, in the beginning, are primarily coming from them. It's a sweet and very intimate sound. Somewhere between the chamber and full orch.



What reverb did you use?


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## theflyingspaghettimonster (Dec 19, 2021)

Rowy van Hest said:


> I don't want to offend you, but I think it would be better if you learned to write 4-part harmony first. Try to write something simple for string quartet: 1st violin, 2nd violin, viola and cello. You can double the cello in a lower octave and there you have your bass. Then orchestrate.


I’m not offended! In fact, quite the contrary. I’m impressed by the amount of community on this website!

So once I’ve got the four part harmony down, do I modify each string section to add a bit of variety to it (cello plays counter, etc.)? Sorry if I’m asking so many questions, I’m really eager to learn!


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## Rowy van Hest (Dec 19, 2021)

theflyingspaghettimonster said:


> I’m not offended! In fact, quite the contrary. I’m impressed by the amount of community on this website!
> 
> So once I’ve got the four part harmony down, do I modify each string section to add a bit of variety to it (cello plays counter, etc.)? Sorry if I’m asking so many questions, I’m really eager to learn!



I'm afraid you don't have the background to write a composition for 4 voices. With a 4-part harmony I don't mean just chords. If that's what you're used to, writing chords, you need an advise from someone else. I guess you will need to work with an arpeggiator and rhythm and stuff like that. I have no experience in that field.


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## el-bo (Dec 19, 2021)

Rowy van Hest said:


> I'm afraid you don't have the background to write a composition for 4 voices. With a 4-part harmony I don't mean just chords. If that's what you're used to, writing chords, you need an advise from someone else. I guess you will need to work with an arpeggiator and rhythm and stuff like that. I have no experience in that field.


Huh?


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## el-bo (Dec 19, 2021)

theflyingspaghettimonster said:


> Any idea on what I could do?


I'm a total newb when it comes to orchestral composing, so not sure if this applies. However, I found watching this particular performance (linked below, from another VIC thread), and the dance between the roles of the two violins, to be quite enlightening. Not sure if this would be appropriate for a big orchestra, in terms of balance etc.:





__





Anyone got the chops to recreate the Eleanor Rigby Quintet? Bump for AR2 users!







vi-control.net


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## theflyingspaghettimonster (Dec 20, 2021)

Rowy van Hest said:


> I'm afraid you don't have the background to write a composition for 4 voices. With a 4-part harmony I don't mean just chords. If that's what you're used to, writing chords, you need an advise from someone else. I guess you will need to work with an arpeggiator and rhythm and stuff like that. I have no experience in that field.


What?


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## Rowy van Hest (Dec 20, 2021)

theflyingspaghettimonster said:


> What?


What what? Because of the questions you ask I now have a pretty good idea of how you work and what help you need. There are a lot of musicians on this forum who can help you more efficient on the path you have chosen. Good luck.


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## theflyingspaghettimonster (Dec 20, 2021)

Rowy van Hest said:


> What what? Because of the questions you ask I now have a pretty good idea of how you work and what help you need. There are a lot of musicians on this forum who can help you more efficient on the path you have chosen. Good luck.


I can write decent 4 part harmony relatively consistently. I know about doubling, inversions and the like. I've never heard of a four part harmony that doesn't use chords, but that could just be chalked up to inexperience and naivety from me.


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## noldar12 (Dec 20, 2021)

Do you listen to much symphonic music? Listening to string quartets would be even better. As I think has already been suggested, getting an orchestration book that includes dealing with how to write for sections would also help. Adler comes to mind.

In a very general sense, even the name of the section gives a clue: 2nd violins, a section that plays things (sometimes doubling) that support the first violins without overshadowing them.

Although it may not be what you want to hear, the most important thing is to study on your own (including taking classes, etc.), and learn how you want to handle the section in a way that fits the music you want to write.

The good news is that you can, and will, succeed.


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## theflyingspaghettimonster (Dec 20, 2021)

noldar12 said:


> Do you listen to much symphonic music? Listening to string quartets would be even better. As I think has already been suggested, getting an orchestration book that includes dealing with how to write for sections would also help. Adler comes to mind.
> 
> In a very general sense, even the name of the section gives a clue: 2nd violins, a section that plays things (sometimes doubling) that support the first violins without overshadowing them.
> 
> Although it may not be what you want to hear, the most important thing is to study on your own (including taking classes, etc.), and learn how you want to handle the section in a way that fits the music you want to write.


Thanks for the reply. The orchestration book seems like a particularly enticing option!

And no, I don’t listen to much symphonic music (I’m more of a film music type person!), but if listening to it helps me expand my orchestral repertoire, I wouldn’t hesitate givin’ it a shot!


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## theflyingspaghettimonster (Dec 21, 2021)

Thanks so much for the replies, guys! I’ve decided to start my composition again and really develop it this time instead of going straight at it. Hopefully it turns out better!


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## TimCox (Dec 22, 2021)

Harmony, doubling, octave doubling, rhythmic patterning, counter melody, etc.

It's a valuable section of the strings as they're timbre-(ly?) identical to the 1st violins but smaller. If you need Vln 1 to stand out more then they can join in unison. Or the John Williams trick which is 2nd violins takes the melody while 1st takes it a screaming octave higher. Putting them in unison to bolster the violas is nice too, you can develop textures simply by letting the 2nd violins support other instruments. Very usable!


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## ALittleNightMusic (Mar 30, 2022)

Good video here


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## ryans (Mar 30, 2022)

Already mentioned but I will say it again anyway: for soaring melodies doubling 2nd violins with the firsts an octave above is one of the best things you can do. For live players anyways. With samples, it uh, kind of sucks.


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## mikeh-375 (Mar 30, 2022)

Don't forget ingenious accompanimental and background duties along with all manner of counterpoint. Best to treat the 2nds as musically equals too at times and their full register is always available. It's good acvice to not just think of them as mere fillers.


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