# Which reverb to buy?



## nik (Oct 6, 2016)

Hey guys, 
i was always using Ql Spaces but now my composer cloud ran out and so i need to buy a good reverb. I am mostly doin Orchestral stuff as well as epic trailer things. I also produce guitar stuff. Obv the best for me would be to find a reverb suited for all these things. Is Ql Spaces still on the top there or can i find some better stuff ?
thanks for the help
Nik


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## BenG (Oct 6, 2016)

In terms of convolution reverbs, I still prefer QL Spaces over everything else. 

For algorithmic however, I use 2cAudio B2 and also hear great things about Valhalla.


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## mac (Oct 6, 2016)

If I didn't already own space designer, I'd be taking a long hard look at Altiverb 7.


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## jononotbono (Oct 6, 2016)

Don't underestimate the included Reverbs in your DAW. I don't know what you use but Space Designer in Logic is apparently great and Revelation in Cubase is great. Both of which you can import Impulses into and if you go online you can make a donation and download Bricasti M7 impulses (apparently).

For the money, you won't get better algorithmic Reverbs than the Valhalla Reverbs.

EW Spaces is great Convolution reverb

Altiverb 7 is an amazing reverb but expensive. There are so many.

Also check out Adaptiverb. People are loving it (brand new release).


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## MarcelM (Oct 6, 2016)

best value for money:

algo: valhalla vintage verb
convo: reverberate 2 (its bricasti m7 fusion IR sound MUCH better than the free ones available)

you might find a few who think that reverberate sounds better than altiverb, and iam one of em


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Oct 6, 2016)

+1 for Valhalla and Altiverb

Altiverb can get you results similar to QL Spaces. I'd still use Spaces if I could get it to work properly in Cubase on Windows. 

I'd stay away from using algorithmic impulse responses such as the Bricasti. They don't behave the same way as an actual algorithmic reverb.

Alan Meyerson seems to like the R2 for algorithmic (other than his 6 Bricasti). 

I've heard that UAD reverbs aren't as good as native options around (contrary to most of their other plugins which are among the best).


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## Parsifal666 (Oct 6, 2016)

Valhalla. For the price they're simply phenomenal imo. I mostly use those and QL spaces, though some of my onboard reverbs are amazing, such as Largo, Nave, Zebra/HZ. At least imo.

The Kontakt convolution isn't completely terrible either, at least in my experience. It's just that Kontakt could be so much more in both the effects and modulation depts...


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## jononotbono (Oct 6, 2016)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> +1 for Valhalla and Altiverb
> 
> Altiverb can get you results similar to QL Spaces. I'd still use Spaces if I could get it to work properly in Cubase on Windows.
> 
> ...



Interesting about UAD. I haven't gone UAD yet but thought their stuff was up there with the best (Reverbs included)? Having it all on DSP is the other draw though! As soon as I can afford it I will definitely be going Altiverb. For Sound Design it is just amazing! For everything it's amazing actually!


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## Parsifal666 (Oct 6, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> Interesting about UAD. I haven't gone UAD yet but thought their stuff was up there with the best (Reverbs included)? Having it all on DSP is the other draw though! As soon as I can afford it I will definitely be going Altiverb. For Sound Design it is just amazing! For everything it's amazing actually!



I've worked with both before, they're excellent. But I ended up simpy learning the yee-haw out of my aforementioned vsts and haven't had any real desire for the others since. Once I had the knowledge, I was able to apply it even to effects that weren't exactly pristine.


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## Maestro1972 (Oct 6, 2016)

I think it is important to mention that be mindful of your systems capabilities. Spaces uses a lot less resources as 2cAudio B2, Adaptiverb, and Altiverb. I own a plethora of reverbs that I gathered in my on going quest for my perfect sound, and I keep returning to Spaces and 2cAudio B2.


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## jononotbono (Oct 6, 2016)

Parsifal666 said:


> I've worked with both before, they're excellent. But I ended up simpy learning the yee-haw out of my aforementioned vsts and haven't had any real desire for the others since. Once I had the knowledge, I was able to apply it even to effects that weren't exactly pristine.



Yeah man. I always think it's best to get the most out of your current tools before buying more unless you do need it for a job etc. I've recently been doing some Sound Design stuff and am intrigued by all the different options Altiverb potentially offers with putting Dialogue (for example) into different rooms and atmospheres. Equally, I am loving using the Reverbs in Cubase for designing Risers etc.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Oct 6, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> Interesting about UAD. I haven't gone UAD yet but thought their stuff was up there with the best (Reverbs included)? Having it all on DSP is the other draw though! As soon as I can afford it I will definitely be going Altiverb. For Sound Design it is just amazing! For everything it's amazing actually!



I can't remember where it is that I read it. I haven't heard them myself. I've found Altiverb doesn't use all that much processing power. In my template I think I have around 10 in surround and it's not a big deal. Probably around the same as Spaces. Certainly less than a lot of the Slate Digital plugins or Ozone 7. I used to use Reverence before I got Altiverb and those alone would take up around 10GB in ram.


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## Parsifal666 (Oct 6, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> Yeah man. I always think it's best to get the most out of your current tools before buying more unless you do need it for a job etc. I've recently been doing some Sound Design stuff and am intrigued by all the different options Altiverb potentially offers with putting Dialogue (for example) into different rooms and atmospheres. Equally, I am loving using the Reverbs in Cubase for designing Risers etc.



Cubase has some really good stuff. More than once I've been looking for my go to effects when I stumble on something (most recently "Chopper") that turns out to be pretty darn cool!

I have a whole, huge library of IRs that I've collected, which come in mega handy, even with overall "lesser" reverbs like the stock Kontakt.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Oct 6, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> Yeah man. I always think it's best to get the most out of your current tools before buying more unless you do need it for a job etc. I've recently been doing some Sound Design stuff and am intrigued by all the different options Altiverb potentially offers with putting Dialogue (for example) into different rooms and atmospheres. Equally, I am loving using the Reverbs in Cubase for designing Risers etc.



The different rooms in Altiverb are great for quickly changing the room of a drier sound. I use them all the time.


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## Parsifal666 (Oct 6, 2016)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> The different rooms in Altiverb are great for quickly changing the room of a drier sound. I use them all the time.



When I started out, if I had the cash, Altiverb probably would have been my best bet. Just a terrific verb, plenty of pleasing dimensions.


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## jononotbono (Oct 6, 2016)

Parsifal666 said:


> (most recently "Chopper") that turns out to be pretty darn cool!



Put simply, I just can't LOVE Chopper (not the lunatic) anymore than I already do.


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## jononotbono (Oct 6, 2016)

Parsifal666 said:


> When I started out, if I had the cash, Altiverb probably would have been my best bet. Just a terrific verb, plenty of pleasing dimensions.



Well this is it. I'm not prepared to buy anymore reverbs until I just have that. It's an investment but hey, it will pay for itself!


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## Lawson. (Oct 6, 2016)

Valhalla is definitely the best bang-for-your-buck.


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## Fleer (Oct 6, 2016)

Zynaptiq Adaptiverb all the way. And Spaces (still).


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## galactic orange (Oct 6, 2016)

Fleer said:


> Zynaptiq Adaptiverb all the way. And Spaces (still).


Adaptiverb offers a lot of creative possibilities. I've watched the videos and would like to snag it. I have a couple of the Valhallas (Vintage Verb and Plate) but the only convolution in my library is Logic's Space Designer. Regarding QL Spaces, I've read some forum comments about it offering a better room sound with more "air" than Space Designer.

I assumed the OP was looking for a convo, but for someone with only the above reverbs who is considering either Spaces or Adaptiverb, which would you recommend for orchestral tracks?


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## SpeakPianissimoAndCarry.. (Oct 6, 2016)

Zynaptiq for sure is excellent, but only for synths for me at this present time (I need to study it more with different sounds). For orchestral, my go to is still QL Spaces. It is the most natural sounding to me for dry orchestral sounds. If I use VSL though, I use MIRx. Just as good as Spaces. 2CAudio B2 is also excellent for both orchestral and synths and is very versatile, but if I could only have one reverb, it would be QL Spaces. But wow would I miss the others. Perhaps I like Spaces though because it is the one that I know the best. Hmmmmm.


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## Fleer (Oct 6, 2016)

Well, depends on how you like your reverbs, as "accurate" reproductions of concert halls (Spaces) or almost "magical" reverberations that go beyond Eventide Blackhole and Valhalla Shimmer (Adaptiverb). Look up the Adaptiverb thread and you'll see that even Jay Asher (of EastWest Lurker pedigree) hesitates between both.


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## Chandler (Oct 6, 2016)

Valhalla reverbs are great and cheap. Valhalla vintage you should definitely pick up since it can be used for both orchestral and guitar stuff. Another one I'd recommend is Acon Digital Verberate. It is algorhythmic, but it sounds close to a convolution reverb. It is very clear and transparent. Unlike a convolution reverb you can adjust the parameters easily and it works well for any type of music. I've also been happy with Hornet's Spaces, which I picked up recently for next to nothing. It's not good for long tails, but for that in room sound it is great.

Demo then yourself and see what you like.


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## ArtTurnerMusic (Oct 6, 2016)

When I went through this process myself several weeks ago, I ended up purchasing HOFA IQ-reverb. It's another verb you can demo.


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## Silence-is-Golden (Oct 6, 2016)

Earreverb 2, includes a virtual soundstage, good low CPU usage.


Don't forget that whichever you go for to get to know it well.
Having a good reverb is 1, using it optimally is 2.

Also hear good noises from the beta Relab VSR S24.


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## Hat_Tricky (Oct 6, 2016)

About to pull the trigger on Valhalla or go big with Spaces. I wonder, though, if either will be discounted in the coming months for Black Friday or the Holidays?


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## galactic orange (Oct 6, 2016)

The Valhalla stuff stays at the same low price from what I've seen. But it's already a great deal. I'm holding out for a possible sale on Spaces as well.


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## jonathanprice (Oct 6, 2016)

Does anyone have an opinion on PhoenixVerb Stereo or PhoenixVerb Surround?


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## stargazer (Oct 7, 2016)

Nimbus
http://www.exponentialaudio.com/


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## vewilya (Oct 7, 2016)

Heroix said:


> best value for money:
> 
> algo: valhalla vintage verb
> convo: reverberate 2 (its bricasti m7 fusion IR sound MUCH better than the free ones available)
> ...


Luquid Sonics, the makers of reverberate 2 just teamed up with Slate Digital. They include a multi-reverb plugin in their new everything bundle. Haven't checked up on it myself though, but maybe worth a look.


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## Living Fossil (Oct 7, 2016)

jonathanprice said:


> Does anyone have an opinion on PhoenixVerb Stereo or PhoenixVerb Surround?



The Exponential Audio stuff (Nimbus, R2 and Phoenix, which now can be replaced by Nimbus) is fantastic.
If you just want to buy one reverb, i would clearly say, buy Nimbus.

Convolution verbs are as good as the IRs that you are using.
(i still love the ERs that came with LA Scoring strings)
And don't forget that you can do quite creative things by feeding it with your own IRs.
(take a tonal IR et voilà: you'll get a tonal reverb)


Blackhole is rather special and it's great in doing what it's supposed to do. For that kind of reverbs the best choice.

For that "shimmer" kind of reverbs i usually use Boscomac's effect for Reaktor.
But i use that only on few occasions.


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## vewilya (Oct 7, 2016)

I have to throw in some kudos for VSL. Their reverbs that are part of the Vienna Suite are excellent. The whole suite is underestimated IMHO. The presets are pretty much tailored for their own libs but all the plugins are working brilliantly on all other things as well. They sound pretty clean, which is good for some things, not for everything of course.

The convolution reverb and NB the Hybrid Reverb are really nice. The Hybrid Reverb mixes convolution IR's with an algorithmic tail. Its settings are frighteningly tweakable. And there's a 30-day demo period. They released the second version (surround update) of the Vienna Suite some time ago. I myself am using the 1st version of the suite.

I also have Spaces which is great. For algorithmic reverbs I'd still vote for the Lexicon PCM native reverb above all the others. But there's that price of course. They recently had a 50% sale... if you can wait...

Maybe TC will come out soon enough with a VSS3 plugin AU, VST and the lots...

I mainly use my Reverb4000 hardware unit, which I absolutely adore. The Bricasti M7 would be a steeper priced option in that direction of course but does sound heavenly of course.


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## C-Wave (Oct 7, 2016)

If you're looking for a great reverb, I got two Waves.com for sale on my forum page:
- Waves Hybrid-Reverb 
- Waves IR1 Convolution Reverb
Heavily discounted just because I'm stuffed with other plugins.. check them out here:
http://vi-control.net/community/threads/fs-waves-prices-reduced.52807/


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## nik (Oct 7, 2016)

Hey guys,
thx a lot for the quick respones, just took a look at Altiverb , didnt have this on my radar til now. Have to say it really looks amazing to me. But its way to expensive , have to wait for a sale ! In the meantime i will check out all your other options .
Best regards
nik


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## Zookes (Oct 7, 2016)

Altiverb, QL Spaces, yes. Very nice sounds.

Strange there is no recommendation of MolecularBytes AtomicReverb?? A very favorite reverb for me! Cheap to buy also.

Valhalla Room / Plate and Reverbical have also nice sounds.


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## emid (Oct 7, 2016)

Convolution reverbs depend heavily on how clean the impulse responses are. Sure extra tweaking/functions give them more boost. For an all round and low cost convolution reverb I can't recommend enough Reverberate with fusion IRs. Once you will find an IR suited in your work flow you will never go back. I use fusion Halls, live hall with shortened early response. Works great on many tracks.

For algo I use either Valhalla for clean or Lexicon halls for coloured reverb. Valhalla has been recommended so I would say have a look at the Lexicon PCM bundle. Imo this is one underrated plugin.

If you like an analogue feel, a not very conventional rarely recommended reverb IR pack is VNXT sound EMT140 reverb for Acustica audio Nebula pro. These are the tails from 1s - 5s. Nebula is not suited for most of us due to it's heavy cpu usage and latency issues but I can assure you that because of the technology it uses this reverb pack sounds very real surpassing many well know convolution reverb plugins/IRs. It requires Nebula though.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 7, 2016)

This one is also very worthy of your consideration for an algorithmic verb.
https://ask.audio/articles/review-psp-2445-plug-in-reverb-emulation-of-emt-244-245


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## fgimian (Oct 7, 2016)

I really REALLY love ValhallaVintageVerb, particularly all the Smooth modes. Smooth Room for something that sounds like a real hall with resonance, Smooth Random for an open airy random hall sound and Smooth Plate for a reall rich and thick plate sound. I'm using those 3 algorithms exclusively in VVV now.

Back in the day, I also bought ArtsAcoustic Reverb and honestly, I love it just as much now as I did then. It has the most amazing modulation I have ever heard and is great for really rich and thick reverb tails that really stick to sounds. I love it on choirs and synths more than drums or strings.

I tried the other Valhalla verbs but didn't enjoy them anywhere near as much as VVV.

Is it really worth having a convolution reverb in the toolkit? I haven't used convolution for many years and seem to get by OK without it, but perhaps I simply don't know what I'm missing. I've never used Altiverb or QL Spaces.

Are there any great commercial IRs that we can just use in the Cubase convolution Reverb? e.g. http://www.samplicity.com/shop/


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## tack (Oct 7, 2016)

+1 about VVV and Smooth Random. VVV and ValhallaPlate have pretty much completely replaced ValhallaRoom for me. I use VP has a subtle glue reverb across my template, even for soaking wet libraries like Spitfire.

The only other reverb I use presently is EAReverb2, which I use for positioning of dry instruments.


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## fgimian (Oct 7, 2016)

tack said:


> +1 about VVV and Smooth Random. VVV and ValhallaPlate have pretty much completely replaced ValhallaRoom for me. I use VP has a subtle glue reverb across my template, even for soaking wet libraries like Spitfire.
> 
> The only other reverb I use presently is EAReverb2, which I use for positioning of dry instruments.



Do you have any fav algorithms in ValhallaPlate? Perhaps I should give it another try.

EAReverb too was really impressive when I tried it too. Might pick that up if it goes on sale 

Cheers
Fotis


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## Lode_Runner (Oct 7, 2016)

I've been curious about the HOFA IQ reverb for a while, I'm surprised I haven't seen more discussion about it.

Altiverb looks amazing, I think it's expensive due to the extensive collection of IRs from around the world, so much character to choose from. Unfortunately I can't justify spending that much on reverb though. I don't think they do sales unfortunately - otherwise I'd be getting it (would also love speakerphone).


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## SoNowWhat? (Oct 7, 2016)

Lode_Runner said:


> I've been curious about the HOFA IQ reverb for a while, I'm surprised I haven't seen more discussion about it.
> 
> Altiverb looks amazing, I think it's expensive due to the extensive collection of IRs from around the world, so much character to choose from. Unfortunately I can't justify spending that much on reverb though. I don't think they do sales unfortunately - otherwise I'd be getting it (would also love speakerphone).


That's a shame. I was hoping there might be a discount for Black Friday. Oh well, if not I may just have to stump up. ...Some day... ...Maybe...


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## Pixelee (Oct 8, 2016)

I demo most plugins from Valhalla. I didn't like VVV at all and I also don't like NI's RC24/48. That vintage stuff is just not my thing. I bought room, plate and shimmer. I use them everyday.


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## fgimian (Oct 8, 2016)

Pixelee said:


> I demo most plugins from Valhalla. I didn't like VVV at all and I also don't like NI's RC24/48. That vintage stuff is just not my thing. I bought room, plate and shimmer. I use them everyday.



The RC reverbs do indeed have a similar character to certain VVV algorithms. Do try the Smooth Room algorithm in VVV sometime, it sounds wonderful and has a great room feel with resonance that really makes it sound like a hall.

I would have thought that Shimmer wouldn't be your cup of tea as that too is more on the experimental / lush end of the spectrum.

As long as you're happy and making great music, that's all that matters, but maybe give VVV another try sometime, in particular Modern mode and the Smooth algorithms


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## ghostnote (Oct 8, 2016)

The real question here is: Which reverb NOT to buy?! 

They are all good, but each and everyone of them has it's ups and downsides. I don't want to open up a new digital vs. analog discussion, but to me nothing beats the sound and the 3D feel of the PCM/Bricasti hardware units.


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## ChazC (Oct 8, 2016)

My go-to's are QL Spaces, 112db's excellent Redline Reverb and Waves H-Reverb.

Spaces gets used for 'real' reverb, Redline for 'musical' reverb & H for SFX.


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## Zookes (Oct 8, 2016)

Michael Chrostek said:


> The real question here is: Which reverb NOT to buy?!
> 
> They are all good, but each and everyone of them has it's ups and downsides. I don't want to open up a new digital vs. analog discussion, but to me nothing beats the sound and the 3D feel of the PCM/Bricasti hardware units.


So many reverb plug-ins, yes. 
Many use same similar algorithms tho and re-brand pretending there is some difference because of a new knob to turn.

All reverb sounds OK until you hear only the tail. You will hear immediately the good and bad plug-ins like this.


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## Lode_Runner (Oct 8, 2016)

SoNowWhat? said:


> That's a shame. I was hoping there might be a discount for Black Friday. Oh well, if not I may just have to stump up. ...Some day... ...Maybe...


Don't give up on the dream on my account - I don't think it happens, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just that I've never seen it. Maybe JRR Shop or Sweetwater do sales. Or maybe it can be bought second hand.


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## SoNowWhat? (Oct 8, 2016)

Lode_Runner said:


> Don't give up on the dream on my account - I don't think it happens, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just that I've never seen it. Maybe JRR Shop or Sweetwater do sales. Or maybe it can be bought second hand.


LOL for sure LR. Just being a drama queen. My current big target is Berlin Brass on pre-order so things like reverb will just get pushed back.


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## sinkd (Oct 8, 2016)

+1 fpr VSL (Vienna Suite) and especially the FORTI / SERTI impulse responses used in the convolution reverb. These replaced Altiverb for me several years ago. I also frequently use UAD Lexicon for a final touch on everything.

DS


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## esencia (Oct 8, 2016)

For me 2caudio B2 is the one to go... Awesome reverb. Best reverb I ever tested..


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## Mihkel Zilmer (Oct 8, 2016)

There are so many fantastic options for reverb out there these days. It's almost like asking what kind of car one should buy - the only way to really find out what you like is to go for a test drive.

That said, everyone's got their personal preferences, here are mine:
Convolution reverbs: Altiverb, QL Spaces
Algorithmic reverbs: B2, Phoenixverb, EAReverb 2

I find that most often I'm reaching for Phoenixverb. It sounds very natural and blends with the source material seamlessly. Especially impressive on orchestral / acoustic material.


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## Pixelee (Oct 8, 2016)

fgimian said:


> The RC reverbs do indeed have a similar character to certain VVV algorithms. Do try the Smooth Room algorithm in VVV sometime, it sounds wonderful and has a great room feel with resonance that really makes it sound like a hall.
> 
> I would have thought that Shimmer wouldn't be your cup of tea as that too is more on the experimental / lush end of the spectrum.
> 
> As long as you're happy and making great music, that's all that matters, but maybe give VVV another try sometime, in particular Modern mode and the Smooth algorithms


Maybe I'll do that tonight


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## ceemusic (Oct 8, 2016)

Start with one convolution & one algo. 

Demo them & hear what's best suited for your type of music or style.


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## Geron (Oct 8, 2016)

BenG said:


> In terms of convolution reverbs, I still prefer QL Spaces over everything else.
> 
> For algorithmic however, I use 2cAudio B2 and also hear great things about Valhalla.



That's exactly the two reverbs that i've settled with. QL Spaces for organic depth, B2 for sound design.


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## Takabuntu (Oct 8, 2016)

galactic orange said:


> the only convolution in my library is Logic's Space Designer. Regarding QL Spaces, I've read some forum comments about it offering a better room sound with more "air" than Space Designer.


If there were better (true stereo) impulse response available for Space Designer would that make a difference in "air"? What would you gain with a better reverb, are we taking about 50% 'gain' or a 5% 'gain' in quality. Perhaps there's a lot of money spend on that last couple of percentages?


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## galactic orange (Oct 8, 2016)

Takabuntu said:


> If there were better (true stereo) impulse response available for Space Designer would that make a difference in "air"? What would you gain with a better reverb, are we taking about 50% 'gain' or a 5% 'gain' in quality. Perhaps there's a lot of money spend on that last couple of percentages?


I'm wondering the exact same thing, which is why I haven't committed to purchasing convolution reverb yet. Since the IRs in Spaces are limited to that program, it might be worth picking up for that reason. As far as the sense of "air" in concerned, I'm just relaying a comment I read somewhere.


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## Geron (Oct 9, 2016)

If you're looking for great free/donationware IR's to use with Space Designer etc, this is the best source i've seen so far:

http://signaltonoize.com/?page_id=4188


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## Anthony N.Putson (Oct 9, 2016)

I use B2 and Spaces. Both stunning.


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## nas (Oct 9, 2016)

For convolution, *QL Spaces* is still my preferred choice (I also have Altiverb). For algo I love *ircam Session Verb *it's incredible and works great for orchestral material. I also really like *Relab's LX480 *which is a very accurate representation of the classic Lexicon 480L - it's so close it's hard to believe it's a plugin.


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## fgimian (Oct 9, 2016)

nas said:


> For convolution, *QL Spaces* is still my preferred choice (I also have Altiverb). For algo I love *ircam Session Verb *it's incredible and works great for orchestral material. I also really like *Relab's LX480 *which is a very accurate representation of the classic Lexicon 480L - it's so close it's hard to believe it's a plugin.



I was just about to mention the Relab plugin. I have vowed to avoid using a physical iLok even though I own one since I'm out of USB ports. But if I ever DID find a free port, I think this would be one of the plugins I would be looking at along with the Exponential Audio plugins.

Out of interest, have you had the chance to compare Softube's NI emulations against Relab? Softube say that in blind tests, their plugins sound identical to the real thing too, but they only have random and hall algorithms for the 480L (no Plate).


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 25, 2016)

So many options and so many preferences.. For orchestral mockups, which reverbs or tools are best for helping to construction a 3D panning soundstage from all the various instruments in the orchestra?


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## tack (Nov 25, 2016)

Dewdman42 said:


> For orchestral mockups, which reverbs or tools are best for helping to construction a 3D panning soundstage from all the various instruments in the orchestra?


Best? SPAT, likely.

You didn't mention budget, so ...

Or just buy wet libraries. If your template consists of nothing but, say, Spitfire, you don't need to worry about it.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 25, 2016)

what is SPAT? Can you elaborate on why?


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## Quasar (Nov 25, 2016)

Dewdman42 said:


> So many options and so many preferences.. For orchestral mockups, which reverbs or tools are best for helping to construction a 3D panning soundstage from all the various instruments in the orchestra?



I've been wondering about and exploring this too, and SPAT is about $1000 and an iLok account (deal breaker here on both counts), but I've been demoing Virtual Sound Stage 2 and EAReverb 2 Pro, neither of which seem to be in holiday sales mode.

VSS2 has an extremely cool UI. You load, name and place the instruments on a virtual stage, and you can access any track instance from any other instance. It's also reasonably priced (two-tiered version options with zero cost upgrade path), and has a low CPU hit. But I'm not sure I trust the ERs, and you could easily overdo it and get phasey as hell. Still trying to decide whether or not it's anything more than a well-dressed panning knob. But it DOES create a sense of space. You definitely, as Tack said above, wouldn't use this on libraries such as Spitfire that already have a room & air ambience, as you would likely kill the natural sound. VSS2 is also not a reverb per se. You use their positioning and ERs (as I understand it), but provide your own reverb for the tails.

EAReverb 2 is an algo reverb that has a bunch of complex editors for ERs, multiband stuff that I don't understand, as well as a virtual stage for positioning instruments in space, and I'm still trying to wrap my brain around how it all works. Sonically, I think this might be a better way to go than VSS2, because the verbs themselves sound good, and one could use the space positioning judiciously, and only at all when required. Trying to determine whether this might make a good glue verb for bringing together different libraries recorded in disparate settings. It might.

But I'm still essentially clueless about all of this. I want to find a solution before 12/31/16, when I stop buying stuff for at least one year.


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## tack (Nov 25, 2016)

Dewdman42 said:


> what is SPAT? Can you elaborate on why?


SPAT is a spatial positioning plugin by Ircam. It's ridiculously expensive, but it's very capable. I was impressed by the demo, but couldn't bring myself to fork out that much money. 

I use EAReverb2 for positioning dry instruments. Great little reverb, and an excellent value for the money. I much prefer its ERs over VSS2. Not exactly on topic, but I did a video showing EAReverb2 processing the SM horn. There's been plenty already said about EAReverb2 here, so you could search if you're interested.


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## Penthagram (Nov 25, 2016)

i use Valhalla, QL Spaces and the Verbsuite from slate digital


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## DocMidi657 (Nov 25, 2016)

tack said:


> SPAT is a spatial positioning plugin by Ircam. It's ridiculously expensive, but it's very capable. I was impressed by the demo, but couldn't bring myself to fork out that much money.
> 
> I use EAReverb2 for positioning dry instruments. Great little reverb, and an excellent value for the money. I much prefer its ERs over VSS2. Not exactly on topic, but I did a video showing EAReverb2 processing the SM horn. There's been plenty already said about EAReverb2 here, so you could search if you're interested.


Hey Tack..Your video EAReverb2 processing the SM horn is excellent..thanks for doing that!
Dave


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## tack (Nov 25, 2016)

DocMidi657 said:


> Hey Tack..Your video EAReverb2 processing the SM horn is excellent..thanks for doing that!


Oh, thanks, I'm glad you found it helpful!


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 25, 2016)

Thanks for the explanation tack. SPAT is out of my budget for what it does at this time for sure. I have been eyeballing VSS for quite a while, but I didn't even know EAReverb did that sort of stuff, and it does sound very nice in your video. A couple questions for you...

Its about the same price for the more basic version of VSS, but it sounds like people are saying they think EAReverb2 sounds a little better, I have read other people complaining more about VSS's room tails then so much complaining about the ER's, but you seem to feel you like the sound of EAReverb2's ER's as well over VSS. Do I have that right?

I am trying to decide whether to grab EW spaces right nwo during their November sale ($110), and I am also guessing that EW is not able to turn down the ER's as well as Reverberate and other algo verbs..I already own Reverberate, so I could always use that with the ER's turned down and then use either VSS or EAReverb2 for soundstage positioning. However, if EAReverb already has a pretty decent room reverb in it, then the nice thing is its all in one plugin and I don't even need to worry about EW Spaces or reverberate or any other big hall reverb for the tails. I like the simplicity of that. Need to decide in the next couple days about whether to grab EW spaces, but I'm kind of wondering if that would be a waste of money when I want to head more down the road of VSS or EAReverb2 positioning stuff....

I'm gonna grab Hollywood Orch Diamond right now too, its too cheap to pass up this week..


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## tack (Nov 25, 2016)

Dewdman42 said:


> Is EAReverb2 a little more isolated for each instance, in other words, it shows the whole soundstage but you can only see the current instrument where it sits on the soundstage, and no way to see all the instruments in one view? Do I have that about right?


EAReverb2 does show the positioning from all other instances in the project, but it only lets you manipulate the instrument the current instance is managing, and it doesn't provide any way to label or color code the instruments. In this way, the VSS2 interface is superior.



Dewdman42 said:


> but you seem to feel you like the sound of EAReverb2's ER's as well over VSS. Do I have that right?


You do. To my ears anyway EAReverb2 is doing a more convincing job at simulating a space and positioning an instrument within it. It's an algorithmic reverb that provides quite a lot of flexibility in tweaking the construction of the early reflections. It definitely appeals to my inner nerd in that sense. FWIW, I came from the Pro version of VSS2.



Dewdman42 said:


> However, if EAReverb already has a pretty decent room reverb in it, then the nice thing is its all in one plugin and I don't even need to worry about EW Spaces or reverberate or any other big hall reverb for the tails.


I don't have Spaces -- although people I respect do consider it to be a very fine reverb -- but I was also drawn to the simplicity of an all-in-one solution. Like I said in the video, just drop an instance at the end of your FX chain and you're done. Even if I wanted to send to another reverb for tails, I'd use EAReverb2 for early reflections as I find its positioning to be pretty damn good. Almost SPAT good, actually, and for pennies on the dollar.

The other reverbs I have in my template are from Valhalla. ValhallaPlate is my glue reverb and I _love_ it. It's smooth as silk and glues things very nicely to my ears. I also use ValhallaVintageVerb, mainly on my keys for getting that distant ethereal sound.

There are a great number of fine reverbs out there. Not all of them do positioning though. And if you do go for VSS2, make sure that you have a reverb that you can completely disable early reflections that you can use as a send after VSS2.

Have fun!


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## tack (Nov 25, 2016)

Dewdman42 said:


> read other people complaining more about VSS's room tails then so much complaining about the ER's


BTW VSS doesn't do tails. It's ERs only, and relies on a send to another reverb to provide the tails. So I think you must have misunderstood the criticisms there -- or the critics were confused.


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## fgimian (Nov 26, 2016)

Little update from me, I bought the Relab LX480 and my God is it amazing!!!! For me, truly the best reverb I have heard ever without a doubt. It has a certain depth to its sound which I have yet to hear from any other reverb.


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## jamwerks (Nov 26, 2016)

I used SPAT for a while but ended up selling it. Was using it with Adagio & VSL WW. With Adagio, had to use close mic's, which misses out on the great sounding hall it was recorded in. And MirX sounds better to me with VSL (teldec er's).

I ended up just buying Reverberate 2 which is on sale now for only 40 pounds. Those Bricasti-fusion ir's sound very close to the really thing imo!


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## tack (Nov 26, 2016)

Reverberate 2 and the LX480 are fine sounding (especially the LX480), but they're very different animals than things like SPAT, EAReverb2, or VSS, which model a room and place a sound source within that room to produce specifically timed early reflections to create the sense of position.

I use EAReverb2 on all of my completely dry stuff, but for anything that's recorded in a room (the majority of my template actually), it wouldn't make sense (unless I turned off the ER module). I'd be crazy to use the close mics on all my Spitfire libraries and send it through an algorithmic reverb when I have the real deal captured in the tree mics.


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## Fleer (Nov 26, 2016)

FabFilter Pro-L, EastWest Spaces, Valhalla VintageVerb and Zynaptiq Adaptiverb complementing each other here.


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## tack (Nov 26, 2016)

Fleer said:


> FabFilter Pro-L


I guess you mean Pro-R?


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## Fleer (Nov 26, 2016)

I did it again. Don't know why my keyboard pushes me towards Pro-L, which is a wonderful limiter. 
Pro-R indeed !


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## DocMidi657 (Nov 26, 2016)

The two best reverb's I currently own are EAReverb and Spaces. EaReverb has a warmth to it and also the placement feature and Spaces has a magic about it. I initially downloaded the demo of Spaces and threw it on some VSL brass and was impresed with how mushc more the realistic the brass sounded. I don't have Alitverb or Spat.


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## airflamesred (Nov 26, 2016)

Another vote for EAReverb here. I like it because I don't notice it. It just sits in the background, and foreground come to think.


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## Symfoniq (Nov 26, 2016)

I'm trying to simplify my reverbs. Now I've settled on FabFilter Pro-R for my clean, transparent reverb needs and Slate Digital VerbSuite Classics for when I need more colored reverb.


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## Richard Wilkinson (Nov 26, 2016)

After seeing some suggestions, I trilaed Nimbus & A/B(/C)d it against B2, Space designer and some others. A couple of hours later and I've just bought it. B2 will still get lots of use but I find it much easier to get the type of reverb I'm after with Nimbus. I find B2 can have phasy quality that sounds gorgeous and shimmery on some things but a little spiky and harsh on others, whereas Nimbus seems to sound great on anything.

I've also resolved to spend some time learning B2 properly as well as Nimbus, 'cause I think it's easy to forget what's already under our nose when exciting new things are around - especially on black Friday weekend!


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## fgimian (Nov 26, 2016)

FYI guys, LX480 is on sale for $249 at the moment http://relab.dk/relab-store/

imho the best reverb available, but you do need a physical iLok 2 key to run it


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## C-Wave (Nov 26, 2016)

I am willing to trade/sell my Mir Pro 24, or trade/buy Miro Pro. anybody interested here?


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## Hat_Tricky (Nov 26, 2016)

Need some further advice.

Doing a lot of

Orchestral (CSS, ALbion, 8dio Majestica)
Hybrid (add Daniel James project stuff, u-he DIVA to the mix)
15-30 second ads, mainly strings and piano for uplifting commercial ad stuff
Soon to be doing a LOT of pop/edm or plain pop producing with a singer/songwriter friend of mine.

Need reverbs for all these. THe only thing I currently own is Reaper's built-ins, and WAVES IR-1 convolution.

Have been considering

East West Spaces ($129)
Valhalla Room ($50)
Valhalla Vintage ($50)
Reverberation2 (that M7 has been highly recommeneded across this site so far in my *brief* research the last couple days ($50)
Lexicon PCM Native Reverb ($239, although i think someone said its cheaper somewhere online, maybe Frontendaudio?)

any others people might recommened here.


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## tack (Nov 26, 2016)

For 50 bucks, VVV is a steal. Not saying the others aren't worth getting, but I'd strongly recommend everyone have VVV. Also ValhallaPlate is awesome.


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## Wes Antczak (Nov 26, 2016)

At Audio Deluxe, Lexicon PCM Bundle is $199 in your cart.


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## milesito (Nov 26, 2016)

Is Lexicon PCM (algorithmic) better than Altiverb 7 (Convolution)? Which is better for orchestral and hybrid cinematic music?? I currently use EW Spaces w/ B2 2C Audio which are good...but I'm hoping to get even more of a professional sound.


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## musicalweather (Nov 26, 2016)

No one has mentioned SIR2, a convolution reverb. I've been using it for years and find it stellar, for both live recordings and virtual instruments. I prefer a transparent reverb and this one delivers. It's not the kind of creative plugin for putting your sound in a fantasy space, though. I also like Verberate, which is also very transparent and has many more presets. And of course, you can design your own spaces on that.


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## Calazzus (Nov 27, 2016)

I'm thinking of buying QL Spaces and was wondering if it is necessary to buy such a product. I like what I hear in demos but with most sound libraries providing reverb choices and the fact that there is natural reverb in the samples, does one honestly need more? I'm asking because I'm about to spend $129 on Spaces after spending almost $1000 on SCS, CSS and the giant. Just wondering if Spaces is just a want or a game changing tool.


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## MarcelM (Nov 27, 2016)

Calazzus said:


> I'm thinking of buying QL Spaces and was wondering if it is necessary to buy such a product. I like what I hear in demos but with most sound libraries providing reverb choices and the fact that there is natural reverb in the samples, does one honestly need more? I'm asking because I'm about to spend $129 on Spaces after spending almost $1000 on SCS, CSS and the giant. Just wondering if Spaces is just a want or a game changing tool.



not sure if you really want spaces for the mentioned libs because you will most likely only want to send a reverb tail to those librarys, and with spaces you cannot seperate the early reflections from the reverb tail. an algo reverb would be a better choice imho.


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## Calazzus (Nov 27, 2016)

Heroix said:


> not sure if you really want spaces for the mentioned libs because you will most likely only want to send a reverb tail to those librarys, and with spaces you cannot seperate the early reflections from the reverb tail. an algo reverb would be a better choice imho.


So pretty much using reverb provided by my DAW is sufficient and I really have no need for Spaces?


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## MarcelM (Nov 27, 2016)

Calazzus said:


> So pretty much using reverb provided by my DAW is sufficient and I really have no need for Spaces?



if you dont have a reverb and only the ones in your daw i would probably get an algo reverb then if i were you. vahalla vintage verb would be cheap for 50$, but phoenix verb (clean verb) is also on sale for 50$. also listen to fabfilter pro-r and maybe to lexicon pcm (if you wanna spend more) or lexicon mpx for a start.


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## Calazzus (Nov 27, 2016)

Heroix said:


> if you dont have a reverb and only the ones in your daw i would probably get an algo reverb then if i were you. vahalla vintage verb would be cheap for 50$, but phoenix verb (clean verb) is also on sale for 50$. also listen to fabfilter pro-r and maybe to lexicon pcm (if you wanna spend more) or lexicon mpx for a start.


Thanks for the advice. I'll check those out.


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## dannymc (Nov 27, 2016)

whats the best alternative convolution reverb to QL spaces. i own it but i'm finding it very CPU/RAM heavy and ends up crashing some of my projects to struggle loading up or playback. its a pity cause it sounds fantastic.

Danny


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## MarcelM (Nov 27, 2016)

dannymc said:


> whats the best alternative convolution reverb to QL spaces. i own it but i'm finding it very CPU/RAM heavy and ends up crashing some of my projects to struggle loading up or playback. its a pity cause it sounds fantastic.
> 
> Danny



demo reverberate 2 or just get it for 50$ while its on sale.


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## jamwerks (Nov 27, 2016)

Hat_Tricky said:


> any others people might recommened here.


Seems the Slate Digital everything bundle would be perfect for you! Has a great reverb that covers a lot of ground!


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## Vavastrasza (Nov 27, 2016)

I have way too many reverbs. My favourites are Altiverb and QL Spaces (among convo reverbs) and EAReverb, Lexicon and Aether among algo reverbs. If I had to pick only one though to use with different kinds of music, it would probably be Aether.

Altiverb is expensive but you can sometimes pick it up second hand on the forums here or on KVR.


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## Calazzus (Nov 27, 2016)

If you don't really need a product like spaces for your orchestral instrument libraries what are you guys using it for? I'm curious. Just seems to me that if libs already come with some sort of convolution Reverb built in why do you need another on your send or channel strip? I'm not challenging anyone I'm asking a question because I don't know why but would like to know why.


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## Voider (Nov 27, 2016)

Calazzus said:


> If you don't really need a product like spaces for your orchestral instrument libraries what are you guys using it for? I'm curious. Just seems to me that if libs already come with some sort of convolution Reverb built in why do you need another on your send or channel strip? I'm not challenging anyone I'm asking a question because I don't know why but would like to know why.



As far as I know you can make the mix sit better in "one room" when you send several instruments to the same reverb. I can imagine that using different reverbs for each instrument could result in a less authentic feeling about the space the music is in.


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## Øivind (Nov 27, 2016)

Valhalla Room is very nice, and for the price, it's a nobrainer imo. I have been using the 30 day evaluation of Fabfilter Pro-R and it is sounding very nice to me, might pick that up when the trial ends. Worth testing out, very nice user interface, easy to understand, easy to use and sounds great.


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## Calazzus (Nov 27, 2016)

Voider said:


> As far as I know you can make the mix sit better in "one room" when you send several instruments to the same reverb. I can imagine that using different reverbs for each instrument could result in a less authentic feeling about the space the music is in.


I understand this concept. But with the various presets inside of spaces I would imagine some must be using more than one which brings us back to multiple rooms.


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## Karma (Nov 27, 2016)

I use 2C B2, works very well for blending my non-Spitfire libraries to match Air Lyndhurst. As well as that I use VSS2 (I should mention for placement only) and then usually some light Valhalla Room/Vintage depending on the cue. I do have Altiverb, but with a mostly Spitfire template I can't say I find too much use for it at the moment!


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## ZeeCount (Nov 27, 2016)

What I'm now using is:
Ircam Spat for general spatilisation and matching dry instruments to spitfire libraries which is mostly used on sample modeling and woodwind recordings I do in my studio.
Fabfilter Pro-R for general reverb tasks that don't need to be in your face such as adding a bit of depth to recorded guitars in my studio or some ambiance to drums.
2caudio B2 as my tail reverb which I've set up to match the AIR Lyndhurst for orchestral stuff and a smaller hall for others. I also use this for crazy effects reverbs.

I was using only B2 for a while, and even though this gave good results the performance hit was too great for my system. Spat gives me better results at better performance. I also have Eareverb 2 which I initially loved but after a while something about its sound started to bug me.


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## lp59burst (Nov 27, 2016)

I have Reverberate 2 and also the version of it that's in the Slate Everything bundle.

I'm planning on getting _this_ (Hollywood Sound IR Collection) but was wanted to if it'll work with Reverberate 2 and also to see if anyone here (_calling Mike V_.) uses it and if so what do you think - worth it?


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## Mike Fox (Nov 27, 2016)

I use Spaces, and have absolutely no desire to use anything else.


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## Consona (Nov 27, 2016)

I used 2C B2, QL Spaces, tried Valhalla and some others, ended up using Kontakt convolution reverb.


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## Scamper (Nov 28, 2016)

oivind_rosvold said:


> Valhalla Room is very nice, and for the price, it's a nobrainer imo. I have been using the 30 day evaluation of Fabfilter Pro-R and it is sounding very nice to me, might pick that up when the trial ends. Worth testing out, very nice user interface, easy to understand, easy to use and sounds great.



If price wasn't the issue, how would you rate Fabfilter Pro-R compared to Valhalla Room?


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## Symfoniq (Nov 28, 2016)

Scamper said:


> If price wasn't the issue, how would you rate Fabfilter Pro-R compared to Valhalla Room?



I like Pro-R much, much better. Definitely more transparent. Valhalla and I never got along.


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## Øivind (Nov 28, 2016)

Scamper said:


> If price wasn't the issue, how would you rate Fabfilter Pro-R compared to Valhalla Room?



I am probably not the best person to ask haha. The whole sonic debates on reverb plug-ins is a non factor for me, i don't understand it to be honest  The only reason i am testing Pro-R is because of the user interface. And i get 40% discount because i have some of the other Fabfilter plug-ins, so for me the price is not that insane. So if i was going to choose now, i would get Pro-R, not for the sound, but for the user interface. If i was going for something that just works, i would choose Valhalla Room, as i am very happy with the sound i am getting 

The best thing tho, is that both have trial versions, so everyone can try them out and A/B test them and choose the one they think is the best. Maybe none of them tickles your fancy  
Hell, even the eq, reverbs and delays that comes with the DAW are good enough to get great results to be honest.


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## Scamper (Nov 28, 2016)

oivind_rosvold said:


> So if i was going to choose now, i would get Pro-R, not for the sound, but for the user interface. If i was going for something that just works, i would choose Valhalla Room, as i am very happy with the sound i am getting
> 
> The best thing tho, is that both have trial versions, so everyone can try them out and A/B test them and choose the one they think is the best. Maybe none of them tickles your fancy



I'm also considering Pro-R due to a hefty discount. While I like the interface, I'm missing settings like diffusion and would like to know how this is incorporated somehow. 
But yes, I probably have to test them both though I'm not a big fan of algorithmic reverbs so far. So, I'm thinking VVV or Pro-R.


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## galactic orange (Nov 28, 2016)

Spaces is $109 in cart at AudioDeluxe. I have no convolution reverb other than my DAW. Is this a no-brainer? Does it help seat different libraries into the same room well, even if those libraries have some of their own reverb baked in?


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 28, 2016)

Polkasound said:


> I've always been a fan and user of IK Multimedia's CSR suite.
> .
> .


I'm also a big fan. I don't know why people bad mouth it so much. I think it sounds great for what it is! I haven't tried it with orchestral stuff yet though.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 28, 2016)

galactic orange said:


> Spaces is $109 in cart at AudioDeluxe. I have no convolution reverb other than my DAW. Is this a no-brainer? Does it help seat different libraries into the same room well, even if those libraries have some of their own reverb baked in?



I just bought it yesterday for that price. So many people say great things about it, particularly for orch music, for me its no brainer. I also bought Hollywood Orchestra Diamond. Can't wait to get it..


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## storyteller (Nov 28, 2016)

galactic orange said:


> Spaces is $109 in cart at AudioDeluxe. I have no convolution reverb other than my DAW. Is this a no-brainer? Does it help seat different libraries into the same room well, even if those libraries have some of their own reverb baked in?


Just for added perspective....
IR1 is $69 in cart at waves today. H-Verb is $99 in cart as well. I haven't used H-Verb, but it gets rave reviews. I've been very tempted by it. As far as convolution reverbs go, I really like IR1. I don't own Spaces, but you can't go wrong with either.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 28, 2016)

Reverberate2 is also on sale for $49, right now, and its a very nice IRverb. The thing about EW spaces, is that it just has a very very nice set of IR's......and its ultra simple to use.


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## jtnyc (Nov 28, 2016)

galactic orange said:


> Spaces is $109 in cart at AudioDeluxe. I have no convolution reverb other than my DAW. Is this a no-brainer? Does it help seat different libraries into the same room well, even if those libraries have some of their own reverb baked in?


You can demo it for 10 days.


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## Naoki Ohmori (Nov 28, 2016)

It's a shame 2cAudio Breeze is underrated. 
I have yet to try out Pro-R but Breeze is quite transparent, easy to use and CPU friendly. 
The price is dropped by $75 when it's on sale. 
The difference of the price between Valhalla and Breeze(sale price) is mere $25.


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## Vin (Nov 29, 2016)

After trying pretty much every reverb plugin, B2 and VVV still sound the best to my ears. Lexicon PCM is great as well.

But you can't really go wrong nowadays, any of the more popular reverbs will do, be it B2, Aether, Lexicon, Spaces, Altiverb, Relab, Exponential, ArtsAcoustic....all great choices.


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## Living Fossil (Nov 29, 2016)

Vin said:


> After trying pretty much every reverb plugin, B2 and VVV still sound the best to my ears. Lexicon PCM is great as well.




Hi Vin, 
could you name some VVV presets or settings that underline your impression?
I have it since years and try to like it, but to be honest, i just don't get the hype...
thanks!


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## Vin (Nov 29, 2016)

Living Fossil said:


> Hi Vin,
> could you name some VVV presets or settings that underline your impression?
> I have it since years and try to like it, but to be honest, i just don't get the hype...
> thanks!




I should clarify - for orchestral I'd prefer B2 (or maybe Spaces, although I prefer algorithmic reverbs in general), but for electronic-based sounds, VVV wins. It's just a matter of taste - reverb taste is highly subjective. What's your reverb of choice?

For acoustic drums and guitars, I love that Tiled Room. It just sounds like a record.

If you want to try it for orchestral, try this preset (copy/paste from clipboard):

<ValhallaVintageVerb pluginVersion="1.0.1" presetName="My Hall" Mix="1" PreDelay="0.186000004" Decay="0.361999989" Size="0.870000005" Attack="0.698000014" BassMult="0.44600001" BassXover="0.455000013" HighShelf="0" HighFreq="0.405000001" EarlyDiffusion="0.649999976" LateDiffusion="0.832000017" ModRate="0.0179999992" ModDepth="0.25999999" HighCut="0.324000001" LowCut="0.0439999998" ColorMode="1" ReverbMode="0.0416666679"/>

Used on solo piano: https://app.box.com/s/4r7mvt9lvaiizka5543t


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## kevinlee87 (Nov 29, 2016)

One for Fabfilter Pro R


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## Living Fossil (Nov 29, 2016)

@Vin: Thanks for posting that example, nice piano playing!
However, i've tried your preset on some spitfire strings and compared it to Nimbus, Lexicon Native (Hall), IK's CSR (Hall). I liked your preset, but in my opinion, it does not really come close to the other 3 mentioned reverbs.
(CSR is totally underrated...)
In the same time i also think to hear what you might like about the Valhalla sound. I guess it might have to do a lot with the context of the music one writes. 
What i miss (if i try to be "objective") in VVV is the spatial depth. I always have the impression that the tail is a bit like a fluffy cloud in 2D.


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## gjelul (Nov 29, 2016)

2CAudio stuff -- Very good!


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## Symfoniq (Nov 29, 2016)

Living Fossil said:


> @Vin:
> What i miss (if i try to be "objective") in VVV is the spatial depth. I always have the impression that the tail is a bit like a fluffy cloud in 2D.



This is exactly how it sounds to me, too.

I demoed VVV again this morning for probably the fourth time, because everyone raves about it, and everyone can't be wrong. I love the interface, but the sense of realistic space just isn't there for me. I feel like I'm just burying the source under a layer of diffusion that has only the most passing relationship to it. Perhaps I've been spoiled by Exponential Audio's reverbs, which can make even VSL samples sound like they were originally recorded in the reverb's algorithmic "room."

But what EA's reverbs giveth to the ear, they taketh away from the eye. Maybe Michael Carnes should hire Valhalla DSP to design his interfaces...


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## fgimian (Nov 29, 2016)

Symfoniq said:


> This is exactly how it sounds to me, too.
> 
> I demoed VVV again this morning for probably the fourth time, because everyone raves about it, and everyone can't be wrong. I love the interface, but the sense of realistic space just isn't there for me. I feel like I'm just burying the source under a layer of diffusion that has only the most passing relationship to it. Perhaps I've been spoiled by Exponential Audio's reverbs, which can make even VSL samples sound like they were originally recorded in the reverb's algorithmic "room."
> 
> But what EA's reverbs giveth to the ear, they taketh away from the eye. Maybe Michael Carnes should hire Valhalla DSP to design his interfaces...



I really like VVV but do feel the same. I hear more depth in ArtsAcoustic Reverb and Relab's LX480 (especially) as compared to VVV. The new Smooth algorithms in VVV are the best included imho and they are very good, but they just lack that little bit of 3D feel where you can almost see the sound travelling 10 metres away which I get with LX480.

Regardless though, it is an amazing reverb for the price and has actually been used on huge records (Adele's new album apparently used lots of VVV). In a mix, these things are pretty subtle, especially if your tail is not very long.


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## Voider (Nov 30, 2016)

I'm just thinking about how important it actually is to own an external reverb, if you work only with plugins that come with decent included reverbs. Just listening to a track I'm working on, with Dune 2 (using its delay and reverb for the patches I programmed) and DM-307 by Heavyocity, also used with the included reverb and delay. Plus Vocalise, also with own delay and reverb. And it sounds absolutely great as it is together.

But I think for long evolving ambient textures or pads it would be essential because then the whole quality of the sounds does depend on the reverb.


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## khollister (Nov 30, 2016)

So I just fired up a piano and played it through 4 algo reverbs I own - Exponential Audio Phoenix, 2C Audio Aether, Lexicon PCM Native & Valhalla Vintage. I selected presets that claimed or sounded like they were close to the MediumRandomHall 1 in the Lex and adjusted pre delays, reverb times and mixes to roughly match.

The clear loser - VVV. Definitely 2D in comparison to the other 3 (using the "NOW" color)

Phoenix & Aether are very good, much better sense of depth. Phoenix is almost too accurate (kinda boring sounding), Aether is richer sounding but a CPU hog. However, Phoenix has almost as good a 3D representation of a room as the Lex, just a bit smaller around the edges. While both Aether and VVV are complex harmonically, their projection of space is relatively poor in comparison.

The Lex PCM Native MediumRHall presets kill it - huge 3D soundstage with an unbelievably lush sound, but still clear and acoustic sounding.

I'm not surprised because I demoed the Lex, Relab LX480, the NI verbs and CSR (which I own) a couple years ago. In spite of everyone raving about the Relab 480 (and I have used a real HW 480L), I thought the Lexicon PCM Native sounded more like a real Lexicon hardware unit, and not by a small amount.

This wasn't an exhaustive test, but The Lexicon plugin has the mojo, the others don't.

My opinion of course, YMMV


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## khollister (Nov 30, 2016)

Just did a quick try of Reverberate with the M7 MediumHall fusion-IR. Very good, but I still like the Lex better (more spacious, more transparent, more alive).


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## Scamper (Nov 30, 2016)

I'm probably not the best person to do this, since I'm not experienced with reverbs, but I've made a little comparison. 
Also, this might not be the proper benchmark example, but I always disliked sharp percussion sounds, which can get very clanging using algorithmic reverb.

So, I tried to match parameters a bit: (concert) medium hall, 2.5s decay, 10ms pre-delay, max diffusion/density, if possible less attack/more distance, a bit of high cut. 
The sounds in order are: Dry, REVerence convolution reverb, FabFilter Pro-R, VVV, VVV using Vin's preset, Valhalla Room, 2C Audio Breeze. All reverb sounds are 100% wet.

Judging by this, my favorites are probably Pro-R and VVV in terms of sound and handling.



I'd like to hear a comparison of reverbs from someone who knows what he's doing and who got some more expensive plugins as well.


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## Symfoniq (Nov 30, 2016)

khollister said:


> So I just fired up a piano and played it through 4 algo reverbs I own - Exponential Audio Phoenix, 2C Audio Aether, Lexicon PCM Native & Valhalla Vintage. I selected presets that claimed or sounded like they were close to the MediumRandomHall 1 in the Lex and adjusted pre delays, reverb times and mixes to roughly match.
> 
> The clear loser - VVV. Definitely 2D in comparison to the other 3 (using the "NOW" color)
> 
> ...




This pretty much mirrors my experience, with the caveat that I haven't used Lexicon PCM Native. PhoenixVerb (and R2 and NIMBUS) are extremely good at adding a third dimension to the source. But PhoenixVerb is so transparent that there are situations where a more colored reverb might be desired (which is why Michael Carnes created R2). I'm finding Pro-R quite transparent, too. I like the sound of Aether for some uses, but not the CPU usage.

I'm not a reverb expert, but doesn't the Lexicon PCM Native bundle use the algorithms from the PCM96? If so, I'm not really surprised that Relab's LX480 sounds different.


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## Living Fossil (Nov 30, 2016)

Symfoniq said:


> But PhoenixVerb is so transparent that there are situations where a more colored reverb might be desired (which is why Michael Carnes created R2).


Yes, in fact, sometimes it's too transparent. Often, R2 is perfect in those situations, sometimes also CSR Hall, which adds a lot of magic on some material.


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## mc_deli (Nov 30, 2016)

Adaptiverb vs Pro-R then... can Fabfilter compete?


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## galactic orange (Nov 30, 2016)

khollister said:


> I'm not surprised because I demoed the Lex, Relab LX480, the NI verbs and CSR (which I own) a couple years ago.


How did the NI reverbs fare? I've got those in Komplete but hardly ever use them. Better, more 3-D sound than VVV?


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## Zookes (Nov 30, 2016)

Dewdman42 said:


> So many options and so many preferences.. For orchestral mockups, which reverbs or tools are best for helping to construction a 3D panning soundstage from all the various instruments in the orchestra?


3D panning like realtime in surround channels, or static set-and-forget sort of settings?

My setup accomplishing the set-and-forget is only dual mono delays per instrument and a nice reverb for the sum. Could maybe add early reflections reverb after delays per instrument, but this takes very much resources and sounds not so different or better to me.


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## khollister (Nov 30, 2016)

galactic orange said:


> How did the NI reverbs fare? I've got those in Komplete but hardly ever use them. Better, more 3-D sound than VVV?



It has been too long, I have no idea at this point.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 30, 2016)

Symfoniq said:


> This is exactly how it sounds to me, too.
> 
> I demoed VVV again this morning for probably the fourth time, because everyone raves about it, and everyone can't be wrong. I love the interface, but the sense of realistic space just isn't there for me.



Well that's a little weird to me - why would you expect a realistic sense of space from VVV? IMO it's hardly meant to do that. It's a moody, colored, vibey kind of reverb, fantastic on synths, guitars, and everything that needs a bit of a juicy tail. It's a great reverb. But I wouldn't necessarily reach for it to create a realistic hall sound for orchestral instruments.


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## Fleer (Nov 30, 2016)

mc_deli said:


> Adaptiverb vs Pro-R then... can Fabfilter compete?


They complement each other perfectly.


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## Pianolando (Dec 1, 2016)

Symfoniq said:


> I'm not a reverb expert, but doesn't the Lexicon PCM Native bundle use the algorithms from the PCM96? If so, I'm not really surprised that Relab's LX480 sounds different.



Yes, the PCM bundle is the software version of PCM96. Those algorithms are done by Michael Carnes, who then left Lexicon to start his own company, Exponential Audio, who released Phoenix and R2. To me, those two reverbs are the best existing software alternatives, I haven't used LX480 since I got them a few years ago.

On a side note: I believe that a "Random hall" generally isn't recommended for piano/percussive instruments but I guess it's a matter of taste as everything. Also I think that R2 is better suited for Random hall-kind of sounds than Phoenix, R2 has more modulation and chorus, while Phoenix is ultra clean. 

I'm definitely no expert and YMMV, but that's my 2c.


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## Musicam (Dec 1, 2016)

Pianolando said:


> Yes, the PCM bundle is the software version of PCM96. Those algorithms are done by Michael Carnes, who then left Lexicon to start his own company, Exponential Audio, who released Phoenix and R2. To me, those two reverbs are the best existing software alternatives, I haven't used LX480 since I got them a few years ago.
> 
> On a side note: I believe that a "Random hall" generally isn't recommended for piano/percussive instruments but I guess it's a matter of taste as everything. Also I think that R2 is better suited for Random hall-kind of sounds than Phoenix, R2 has more modulation and chorus, while Phoenix is ultra clean.
> 
> I'm definitely no expert and YMMV, but that's my 2c.



I wanna to buy Lexicon reverb for OST. R2 adn Phoenix are better than lexicon? More clear?


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## Tysmall (Dec 1, 2016)

I don't know if it has been mentioned itt already, as I don't have the time to read through 8 pages at the moment. But I do have to vouch for the underdog here and say that I am BEYOND impressed with MmultibandReverb and MmultibandConvolver. Holy shit these things are unbelievably powerful. I think the algorithms are a bit dated ... but if you are willing to put in the time to really sculpt what you are looking for (they have 6 bands .. adjustable sonogram like altiverb, an eq saturation, lfo modulation, frequency based variable decay time (what fabfilter is doing except from 6 years ago), pitch modulation, and did I mention 6 bands?). You can have 6 convolutions in one verb for different frequencies, not to mention you can modulate 2 kinds of reverb via an lfo for each band; or different frequencies within a band making for a total of 12 convolutions in one. I have been able to achieve exactly the reverb I was looking for in like 7 minutes.

There are downsides .. I have an i7 and with 6 bands these things use 20% of my cpu ..
And these two are extremely advanced. They are not the kind of plugin you just slap on and forget about.
Again, I do not believe they are as 'lush' out of the box as say Fabfilter. But I require control to sculpt my sound exactly how I need it, and Pro-R's simplicity just does not let me do that. 

If you have a fairly deep understanding of how reverb works .. I invite you to demo one, or both of these. I picked both up for 50 usd during black friday and have to say they are changing my life - as I primarily used NI's verbs, trueverb, stock convolution, and tonebooster's verbs before - nothing comes close to the control that these allow.


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## Symfoniq (Dec 1, 2016)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Well that's a little weird to me - why would you expect a realistic sense of space from VVV? IMO it's hardly meant to do that. It's a moody, colored, vibey kind of reverb, fantastic on synths, guitars, and everything that needs a bit of a juicy tail. It's a great reverb. But I wouldn't necessarily reach for it to create a realistic hall sound for orchestral instruments.



"Realistic" was perhaps the wrong choice of word. I'm talking about depth—the "3D" effect. My transparent reverbs like Pro-R and PhoenixVerb have amazing depth, as do my vibey reverbs like R2 and the VerbSuite Classics Bricasti. Because it came up in this thread, I've been demoing Lexicon PCM Native since last night, and it, too, seems to add another dimension to the source. I don't hear that with VVV.


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## Symfoniq (Dec 1, 2016)

Musicam said:


> I wanna to buy Lexicon reverb for OST. R2 adn Phoenix are better than lexicon? More clear?



PhoenixVerb is extremely transparent. R2 has color and vibe, more like a Lexicon (although R2 has its own character). All three reverb algorithms (PhoenixVerb, R2, and Lexicon PCM96) were developed by the same guy.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Dec 1, 2016)

Symfoniq said:


> "Realistic" was perhaps the wrong choice of word. I'm talking about depth—the "3D" effect. My transparent reverbs like Pro-R and PhoenixVerb have amazing depth, as do my vibey reverbs like R2 and the VerbSuite Classics Bricasti. Because it came up in this thread, I've been demoing Lexicon PCM Native since last night, and it, too, seems to add another dimension to the source. I don't hear that with VVV.



I think I know what you mean. To be fair, from a pricing standpoint alone, it would be criminal if VVV could take it up with R2.


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## Scamper (Dec 1, 2016)

Can somebody clear up why to use algorithmic reverbs for orchestral instruments, if not for performance, since convolution reverbs generally create a more realistic space?


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## wst3 (Dec 1, 2016)

I've recently trimmed my list of reverb plug-ins, partly because it is better to know a few well, or rather that seems to work for me.

Reverberate - my sole convolution reverb, and I'd use it even more if I didn't always get lost in the rabbit warren that is the settings pages. Really my biggest complaint about all the convolution reverbs I've tried is the mind-boggling number of settings, not to mention IR files!

UAD AKG BX-20 - wow, just picked this up last week, kicking myself for not getting it a long time ago. And I should know better, I still have a spring reverb in the rack that I used to use a lot, the BX-20 will probably replace it.

UAD EMT Plate 140 - if I had to use only one reverb this would probably be it.

UAD Lexicon 224 - no, I still have no idea how to REALLY use it, second only to Reverberate in the category of too many things to tweak, but it sounds gorgeous!

Eventide 2016 - makes everything sound pretty, probably the easiest reverb I own.

If it appears I am stuck in the past (plate, spring, discontinued models), well, I suppose I am. These are tools, or classes of tools that I've used for a very long time, and familiarity helps sometimes... especially when you've managed to screw things up, you know you can get back to sanity. And just to prove I'm not a complete luddite, I also use:

Eventide Black Hole - mostly for special effects, but it is cool!

Zynaptiq Adaptiverb - I expected this to be a sound design tool, but it works well on any source. I'm still figuring it out, but I am certain this is one I want to learn.

Camel Audio CamelSpace - pretty much a sound design reverb, or at least that's how I use it. It is, sadly, no longer available and I am weaning myself off it.

Wizzoverb - I had to stop using this, authorization did not survive the last system upgrade. And I do miss it.

I should also admit that I still use hardware reverb, a Lexicon PCM-90 and an LXP-1 (and LXP-5). I could probably ditch the LXPs for their plugins, but the PCM-90 still sounds better (to me).


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## Symfoniq (Dec 1, 2016)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I think I know what you mean. To be fair, from a pricing standpoint alone, it would be criminal if VVV could take it up with R2.



I suppose that's true! I do really like the Valhalla interfaces, though. In comparison, the Exponential Audio reverbs' interfaces are daggers in the eye. 



Scamper said:


> Can somebody clear up why to use algorithmic reverbs for orchestral instruments, if not for performance, since convolution reverbs generally create a more realistic space?



For me, it's mostly about the sound. I've not been a fan of convolution reverbs in the past. I sold my MIR Pro license, for example—I had a hard time achieving a convincing depth effect without washing out the source. Even though they're algorithmic, both PhoenixVerb and Pro-R are very good at creating a sense of space without muddying the source. PhoenixVerb treats early reflections, attack, and tail as independent things, providing a lot of control. And Pro-R's "Distance" parameter can be quite convincing on samples, too.

That said, I just picked up VerbSuite Classics (which uses the Reverberate engine), so I'm giving convolution another go. So far, the Bricasti impulses sound very good.


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## Tysmall (Dec 1, 2016)

Scamper said:


> Can somebody clear up why to use algorithmic reverbs for orchestral instruments, if not for performance, since convolution reverbs generally create a more realistic space?


Algorithmic are generally more moldable as opposed to convolution. Saying convolution is generally more "realistic" of a space is kind of a false assumption. Technically yes they are real impulses, but they too are generated with the help of certain algorithms (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/find/newsLetter/Convolution-Reverb.jsp/) and realistic is a subjective term. Sometimes I want something specific that convolution can't necessarily offer (sample selection is limited, and/or I can do it faster programming it in myself than searching for the right convolution to manipulate). 

I think a general assumption would be people use algorithmic reverb to generate long tails or longer decayed reverbs and impulses for initial attack and I have heard a lot of professionals claim mixing the two. 

So, I guess if you want a quick answer convolution for quick algorithmic for long, but I really don't like answering with that - because it is so much deeper than a one sentence answer.


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## wst3 (Dec 1, 2016)

Scamper said:


> Can somebody clear up why to use algorithmic reverbs for orchestral instruments, if not for performance, since convolution reverbs generally create a more realistic space?



I lean on algorithmic reverb because, at least for the ones I use regularly, they use less CPU and are generally easier to tweak. Ok, easier might be the wrong word, but there is less to tweak maybe? Using Reverberate and Pristine Space (my former convolution reverb) as examples, you start by selecting one (or two if you really want to pull your hair out) impulse responses, then you start adjusting their envelopes, adding filters, modulation, and heaven knows what all, and as you do that you decide to change impulse response files, and so on and so on. Even Exponential Audio Nimbus (I own it, it sounds awesome, but I am still deep in the learning phase, and it hasn't made it into the template yet, it will, I'm certain, but it is deep!) provides fewer shiny objects than Reverberate.

And since I'm typing again, do we include spatial location tools in this discussion? I have VSS, and demos of VSS2 and Eareverb. They all do cool things, but I'm not yet sold on the idea. They seem to be yet another fork in the road that can occupy much time. Curious to hear if anyone is using these (or SPLAT) and finding them to be time savers.


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## storyteller (Dec 1, 2016)

Scamper said:


> Can somebody clear up why to use algorithmic reverbs for orchestral instruments, if not for performance, since convolution reverbs generally create a more realistic space?


I think that you can be successful with either. But, whichever way you go, you have to become a master at your tools of choice. Some reverbs receive high acclaim because they are plug-n-play. Not to hate on Lexicon by any means, but it receives a ton of acclaim because it sounds phenomenal with minor tweaks to the presets... but it isn't always the reverb you need for each particular application. Vocals? Certainly in the right context. Valhalla is another that receives kudos because it is dead simple. It sounds great. But, when you explore other reverbs that are more in depth, you begin to realize each one's strengths and weaknesses. 

Are IRs better than algorithmic for orchestral music? Depends on your level of skill with each (and choice of plugin). My personal preference is IRs for orchestral space, then to use an algorithmic reverb for the glue on the mix. Hope this helps - even though it isn't an X is better than Y reply. The truth is, that you can make almost any reverb get 80% of the way there...maybe 90%. Depending on your level of skill (or ability to discern reverbs), then your skill will get you the last 20%. But that last 20% is what makes something sound right or mushy.


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## Dietz (Dec 1, 2016)

storyteller said:


> [...] My personal preference is IRs for orchestral space, then to use an algorithmic reverb for the glue on the mix. [...] But that last 20% is what makes something sound right or mushy.


+1 for both sentences.


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## prodigalson (Dec 1, 2016)

Here is something with my three favourite algo reverbs right now. 

The three are Valhalla Vintage Verb, Lexicon PCM and Slate Digital's VerbSuite Classics' (Bricasti M7).

Can you guess which is which? And which do you prefer on this piano material?


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## Living Fossil (Dec 1, 2016)

@prodigalson: To be honest, for my taste all three add (much) to much coloration.
But i like the 3rd example a lot less than the other two and the first one more than the second.
On this kind of piano music Phoenix would be my choice.


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## Scamper (Dec 1, 2016)

Symfoniq said:


> Even though they're algorithmic, both PhoenixVerb and Pro-R are very good at creating a sense of space without muddying the source. PhoenixVerb treats early reflections, attack, and tail as independent things, providing a lot of control. And Pro-R's "Distance" parameter can be quite convincing on samples, too.



I'm leaning towards Pro-R right now. (choosing between Pro-R, VVV, VRoom, 2C Breeze)
Do you think the simplified controls are an issue even compared to VRoom or Breeze? Also, I'm not sure if the "Distance" setting is comparable to an "ER/Tail mix", but to me it seems like a modified "ER/Tail mix" parameter, isn't it?


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## Living Fossil (Dec 1, 2016)

Just played around a bit with VVV and a piano (ivory Bösendorfer),
i guess i like the smooth Random algorithm most, specially when it comes to octaves in the high register.

<ValhallaVintageVerb pluginVersion="1.5.0" presetName="SF_Piano-Hall_01A" Mix="1" PreDelay="0.16599999368190765381" Decay="0.37599998712539672852" Size="0.59200000762939453125" Attack="0.5" BassMult="0.62303876876831054688" BassXover="0.44470110535621643066" HighShelf="0" HighFreq="0.5" EarlyDiffusion="1" LateDiffusion="1" ModRate="0.20100000500679016113" ModDepth="0.10000000149011611938" HighCut="0.55500000715255737305" LowCut="0.039999999105930328369" ColorMode="1" ReverbMode="0.5833333134651184082"/>


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## prodigalson (Dec 1, 2016)

Living Fossil said:


> Just played around a bit with VVV and a piano (ivory Bösendorfer),
> i guess i like the smooth Random algorithm most, specially when it comes to octaves in the high register.
> 
> <ValhallaVintageVerb pluginVersion="1.5.0" presetName="SF_Piano-Hall_01A" Mix="1" PreDelay="0.16599999368190765381" Decay="0.37599998712539672852" Size="0.59200000762939453125" Attack="0.5" BassMult="0.62303876876831054688" BassXover="0.44470110535621643066" HighShelf="0" HighFreq="0.5" EarlyDiffusion="1" LateDiffusion="1" ModRate="0.20100000500679016113" ModDepth="0.10000000149011611938" HighCut="0.55500000715255737305" LowCut="0.039999999105930328369" ColorMode="1" ReverbMode="0.5833333134651184082"/>



Interesting. The VVV preset I used in my example was the Random Hall...I did reduce the modulation and ER Diffusion a bit to tame it.


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## Symfoniq (Dec 1, 2016)

Scamper said:


> I'm leaning towards Pro-R right now. (choosing between Pro-R, VVV, VRoom, 2C Breeze)
> Do you think the simplified controls are an issue even compared to VRoom or Breeze? Also, I'm not sure if the "Distance" setting is comparable to an "ER/Tail mix", but to me it seems like a modified "ER/Tail mix" parameter, isn't it?



The "Distance" knob in Pro-R has a noticeable effect on transients in the source. I would assume that at least part of the way this is accomplished is by increasing or decreasing early reflections. There isn't as much control over ERs in Pro-R as in PhoenixVerb and NIMBUS, but the simplicity of Pro-R definitely has a place. I would suggest demoing Pro-R to make sure the level of control is adequate for you.


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## Scamper (Dec 1, 2016)

Symfoniq said:


> I would suggest demoing Pro-R to make sure the level of control is adequate for you.


Yes, I've already tried a couple of reverbs, but I'm not sure whether I can rate the level of quality and control properly, since I'm unexperienced with this. Still, Pro-R seems to be great overall and probably is a good enough choice.


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## luke_7 (Dec 1, 2016)

prodigalson said:


> Here is something with my three favourite algo reverbs right now.
> 
> The three are Valhalla Vintage Verb, Lexicon PCM and Slate Digital's VerbSuite Classics' (Bricasti M7).
> 
> Can you guess which is which? And which do you prefer on this piano material?





For my only example 3 has tree dimensional reverb. I'm guessing it's Lexicon PCM although i don't have SDV and can't tell how it sounds.


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## Symfoniq (Dec 1, 2016)

Scamper said:


> Yes, I've already tried a couple of reverbs, but I'm not sure whether I can rate the level of quality and control properly, since I'm unexperienced with this. Still, Pro-R seems to be great overall and probably is a good enough choice.



There are very specific situations where I want to turn off early reflections completely, or change their character and/or length, and PhoenixVerb/R2/NIMBUS let me do this, so these reverbs are definitely more flexible than Pro-R _in that specific department_. However, Pro-R is easier to use, sounds great, looks great, and doesn't require a hardware dongle. Pro-R isn't just "good enough," it's a great choice!


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## khollister (Dec 1, 2016)

I'm going to guess VVV, Slate (aka Reverberate), Lexicon in that order because #1 seems pretty "flat" spatially and #3 is the most 3D and has a noticeable bump in the lower midrange (which seems to be characteristic of many of the Lex PCM presets). #2 is a more spacious than 1 and not as colored as 3, which is my experience with Reverberate and the Bricasti fusion-IR's.


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## prodigalson (Dec 1, 2016)

Interesting guesses so far!


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## Voider (Dec 1, 2016)

prodigalson said:


> Interesting guesses so far!



I'm pretty sure 3 is valhalla. I don't know the others, never heard them, but demoed VVV a lot of times.


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## jtnyc (Dec 1, 2016)

PCM
Slate
VVV


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## Living Fossil (Dec 1, 2016)

jtnyc said:


> PCM
> Slate
> VVV



that would be my guess too.
However, i'd be happy if 1 would be vvv.
It would prove that it can sound expensive.


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## Hat_Tricky (Dec 1, 2016)

is that SLate reverb the same thing (M7) as the Reverberate2 M7?


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## prodigalson (Dec 2, 2016)

Yep.

PCM
Slate
VVV

The Lexicon is my favorite for general acoustic orchestral uses although the Slate M7 finds its use too. I like how the M7 envelops the sound a bit and pushes it back in the room. In this example the VVV is my least favorite though I love it (and Valhalla shimmer) for very long, chorussy sound designish tails.


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## robharvey (Dec 2, 2016)

Altiverb.

It's the nuts and needs the least work to get sounding right.

It's a convolution reverb where they blast a cine wave into a room and record the tail. That's then activated by sound coming into the plugin.

Gorgeous bit of programming and there's also a load of useful lexicon gear on there too in digital format and it's pretty damn close to perfect.


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## tack (Dec 2, 2016)

prodigalson said:


> PCM


Which one did you use in that demo? Large RHall?


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## Rex282 (Dec 2, 2016)

khollister said:


> ................
> 
> The Lex PCM Native MediumRHall presets kill it - huge 3D soundstage with an unbelievably lush sound, but still clear and acoustic sounding.
> 
> ...



CURSE YOU!!....as I pull the trigger on the Lexicon PCM native bundle.....aaaaahhhhh...reeeeeeeveeeeeerb...


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## tack (Dec 2, 2016)

The Lexicon PCM Native bundle is on for $199 at plugindiscounts.com if anyone else is tempted.


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## prodigalson (Dec 2, 2016)

tack said:


> Which one did you use in that demo? Large RHall?



yeah that was the Random Hall. I tried to find similar presets in the Slate M7 and VVV and adjust to match.


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## milesito (Dec 2, 2016)

Hi all,

For orchestral midi is altiverb better than lexicon pcm? And does altiverb ever go on sale?


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## Living Fossil (Dec 3, 2016)

prodigalson said:


> yeah that was the Random Hall. I tried to find similar presets in the Slate M7 and VVV and adjust to match.



Do you maybe own IK's CSR hall?
The longer i own it, the more i like it (that's sometimes the problem with underrated plug ins that one gets in a bundle).
It would be interesting to hear it with the same piano sound with matched settings.


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## luke_7 (Dec 3, 2016)

prodigalson said:


> Yep.
> 
> PCM
> Slate
> ...



Can you share VVV preset used in ex3 ?


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## Michael Antrum (Dec 3, 2016)

I use Studio One Pro v3, and I was also considering getting a convolution reverb to add to my UAD staples (EMT 10 & Ocean Way).

I must have had a uncharacteristic moment of clarity because I suddenly remembered Open Air, which comes bundle with the DAW. It has proved to be excellent bit of kit, which sounds very nice indeed, and there is also a plugin to create your own IR files.

I find that sometimes you forget to use what you already have....


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## Rex282 (Dec 3, 2016)

Just a heads up for anyone buying the Lexicon bundle.You MUST register on your iLOK before you open your DAW or you are fracked(don't ask me how I know).


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## prodigalson (Dec 3, 2016)

luke_7 said:


> Can you share VVV preset used in ex3 ?



I can't share the exact preset because I just left my main rig to work on a project abroad for the next month. It's basically the Large RHall preset with the modulation and ER Diffusion dialled down a bit.


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## prodigalson (Dec 3, 2016)

Living Fossil said:


> Do you maybe own IK's CSR hall?
> The longer i own it, the more i like it (that's sometimes the problem with underrated plug ins that one gets in a bundle).
> It would be interesting to hear it with the same piano sound with matched settings.



Unfortunately no, never even heard of it.


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## emid (Dec 3, 2016)

prodigalson said:


> Here is something with my three favourite algo reverbs right now.
> 
> The three are Valhalla Vintage Verb, Lexicon PCM and Slate Digital's VerbSuite Classics' (Bricasti M7).
> 
> Can you guess which is which? And which do you prefer on this piano material?




Too late as you've already revealed, but I instantly recognized PCM because there is no algo which is as immersed and deep (IMO) than Lexicon. Very underrated reverb but class specially for orchestral stuff.


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## jcrosby (Dec 4, 2016)

I use Spaces for most convolution, a few custom IRs as well. For algorithmic I've tried just about everything under the sun... Personally I think you can't go wrong with Valhalla.

Well worth more than their price tag... They'll get you settled into most orchestral situations you need to be with spectacular results, and money left over for another plugin...


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## Living Fossil (Dec 4, 2016)

prodigalson said:


> Unfortunately no, never even heard of it.



It was programmed by the guy you later made Relab. It would be interesting to hear the direct comparison to the Lexicon.


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## Naoki Ohmori (Dec 4, 2016)

I can relate to chasing after the best reverbs but a taste for reverbs is quite subjective and they would be OK as long as they meet an extent of quality standard. 

I have asked great composers/musicians on soundcloud what reverb they used, however, surprisingly they didn't necessary use expensive reverbs or mostly their reverb set-ups were simple.


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## jcrosby (Dec 4, 2016)

Living Fossil said:


> It was programmed by the guy you later made Relab. It would be interesting to hear the direct comparison to the Lexicon.


You're referring to the IK Multimedia reverbs yeah? I've used them at my buddy's place. They're quite good, on par with Valhalla IMO... Also looks like they have them on sale for $80 for the bundle. Sold!


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## Living Fossil (Dec 4, 2016)

jcrosby said:


> You're referring to the IK Multimedia reverbs yeah? I've used them at my buddy's place. They're quite good, on par with Valhalla IMO... Also looks like they have them on sale for $80 for the bundle. Sold!



I very clearly prefer IK's CSR hall over VVV. It's a totally underrated plug in.


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## Musicam (Dec 5, 2016)

Naoki Ohmori said:


> I can relate to chasing after the best reverbs but a taste for reverbs is quite subjective and they would be OK as long as they meet an extent of quality standard.
> 
> I have asked great composers/musicians on soundcloud what reverb they used, however, surprisingly they didn't necessary use expensive reverbs or mostly their reverb set-ups were simple.



Hi Naoki, how are you? Lexicon is better than Bricasti? I read here that Lexicon has more 3 depth.


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## Naoki Ohmori (Dec 5, 2016)

Musicam said:


> Hi Naoki, how are you? Lexicon is better than Bricasti? I read here that Lexicon has more 3 depth.


I'm afraid that I haven't tried hardwares/plugins Lexicon and the hardware's Bricasti. I have tried some Bricasti IRs, though.(Actually I don't have much admiration for holy grail hardwares somehow) 

Probably the question about which is better would differ from person to person.
How about asking those owning the both?


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## Vastman (Dec 28, 2016)

Re: Adaptiverb or Pro-R


Fleer said:


> They complement each other perfectly.


Boy oh boy, Fleersome... your response is spot on... I now have a trash can full of verbs and can't imagine using anything else going forward cept for Adaptiverb and Pro-R... Bought them both this week (thankfully could NOT resist the sales on each) and am totally blown away...


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## Lee Blaske (Dec 28, 2016)

I've accumulated a lot of reverbs over the years, including the higher end ones like Altiverb and MIR, all the Waves verbs, etc., etc. A lot of reverbs (including the built-in ones) do a good job. But when I want truly magical spaces, I turn to 2C Audio's B2 (and it's worth it to get all the expansion packs). It's incredible, and can create that magic you're not going to find elsewhere. The only drawback is that it REALLY uses a lot of CPU power (guess that's what it takes to make magic). Unless you have massive computer resources, with B2, it's good to get in the habit of freezing or rendering certain tracks. Some presets are a LOT more CPU intensive than others.


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## WindcryMusic (Dec 28, 2016)

Vastman said:


> Re: Adaptiverb or Pro-R
> 
> Boy oh boy, Fleersome... your response is spot on... I now have a trash can full of verbs and can't imagine using anything else going forward cept for Adaptiverb and Pro-R... Bought them both this week (thankfully could NOT resist the sales on each) and am totally blown away...



While I don't have Adaptiverb, I can certainly concur with your endorsement of FabFilter Pro-R. I started using it seriously on orchestral stems in just the last week or so, as an alternative to the M7 Fusion IRs in Reverberate 2 that I've been using for a while now, and already I'm finding myself itching to cut over to primarily using Pro-R. The transparency of it is staggering ... everything I put through it ends up feeling so much richer and bigger, but without altering its character the way an IR sometimes does. I'm really loving this thing.


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## Scamper (Dec 29, 2016)

I'm almost about to get Pro-R now. What seems to be missing for me is the direct control for ER/tail mix though.
If you've got experience with it, how can the "Distance" setting in Pro-R be used for that purpose?


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## Chandler (Dec 29, 2016)

Melda productions is coming out with a new reverb that is super powerful. I'm beta testing it now and I'm loving it so far. I'll try to post a teaser or something soon, but I've never seen anything this powerful before and the CPU use is very reasonable.


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## HiEnergy (Dec 30, 2016)

My personal to-go reverb is this one: Audiority Polaris


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## lp59burst (Dec 30, 2016)

Vastman said:


> Re: Adaptiverb or Pro-R
> 
> Boy oh boy, Fleersome... your response is spot on... I now have a trash can full of verbs and can't imagine using anything else going forward cept for Adaptiverb and Pro-R... Bought them both this week (thankfully could NOT resist the sales on each) and am totally blown away...


Hey Vastman, quick question if I may please.. 

When you ordered Adaptiverb how long did it take them to send you your DL link and reg code? 

I bought yesterday and still nothing. Junk/Spam folders checked so it's not that...


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## Vastman (Dec 30, 2016)

lp59burst said:


> Hey Vastman, quick question if I may please..
> 
> When you ordered Adaptiverb how long did it take them to send you your DL link and reg code?
> 
> ...



The same evening but it is the holidays so.... Cut um a little slack and it is in Europe so consider the time difference. And it is a dinky company and with the best service deal I"m sure they are being slammed at the moment!


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## lp59burst (Jan 8, 2017)

Slightly OT but is Liquid Sonics website down. Trying to check out Reverberate 2 and can't open site...

Can anyone else get there? _Liquid Sonics Reverberate 2_


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## Ashermusic (Jan 8, 2017)

stephen court said:


> For orchestral I like QL Spaces as an aux for each section of the orchestra. I was also using QL Spaces on the 2 buss to glue it all together as well however for my next project I am going to try using an algorithmic reverb on the 2 buss instead, like the UAD 140 plate for depth. I recall that Ashermusic mentioned he does this.



Yes, but not on the two bus, on a separate aux. Although as I am spending more time with Adaptiverb, this may change. It is unique.


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## Fleer (Jan 8, 2017)

Yep, can't get enough of that Zynaptiq Adaptiverb, though FabFilter Pro-R is a close second for reverberation duties.


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## erikradbo (Jan 21, 2017)

Consona said:


> I used 2C B2, QL Spaces, tried Valhalla and some others, ended up using Kontakt convolution reverb.



Which presets have you found to be good in the Kontakt IR? Have just A/B-listened with some Albion samples and compared to Space Designer and Spaces, and so far it beats Space Designer. Have only tried the concert halls, and I only wish they weren't as thick


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## davidgary73 (Jan 21, 2017)

Have been using Relab SVR S24 and it's really really good reverb plug. Give it a demo


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## Consona (Jan 21, 2017)

erikradbo said:


> Which presets have you found to be good in the Kontakt IR? Have just A/B-listened with some Albion samples and compared to Space Designer and Spaces, and so far it beats Space Designer. Have only tried the concert halls, and I only wish they weren't as thick


I demoed Valhalla Vintage Verb recently (I've demoed only Room before) and I have to say it became my favorite reverb for the orchestral samples.

As for the Kontakt, I like the Concert Hall A, BRT 7 Hall Brass and similar IRs but I always reduce the IR size to arond 70%. But this reverb is not true-steree, somebody may not care about that, but to me it makes difference, so when I use it I always send my instruments into some true-stereo reverb at the end now.


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## erikradbo (Jan 21, 2017)

Consona said:


> I demoed Valhalla Vintage Verb recently (I've demoed only Room before) and I have to say it became my favorite reverb for the orchestral samples.
> 
> As for the Kontakt, I like the Concert Hall A, BRT 7 Hall Brass and similar IRs but I always reduce the IR size to arond 70%. But this reverb is not true-steree, somebody may not care about that, but to me it makes difference, so when I use it I always send my instruments into some true-stereo reverb at the end now.



Do you then go through the kontakt convolution and into VVV?

I have Valhalla Room, and it's all right but not very clean compared to e.g. spaces. I'm guessing VVV also is quite thick?


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## Ashermusic (Jan 21, 2017)

I need another reverb like I need a hole in the head, but I was very impressed by the new Fabfilter reverb at NAMM yesterday. Ditto the EQ and compressors. 

They all have features that make them great learning tools for people who are new to this stuff.


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## Consona (Jan 21, 2017)

erikradbo said:


> Do you then go through the kontakt convolution and into VVV?
> 
> I have Valhalla Room, and it's all right but not very clean compared to e.g. spaces. I'm guessing VVV also is quite thick?


VVV has 3 modes, from old-school to transparent and rather good number of algorithms so you can get really varied type of reverb sounds.

Yea, it depends on samples, but sometimes I find that putting Kontakt convo on instrument and then sending it to VVV works really well, because Kontakt convo adds that something to the sound I liked in the first place.


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## gjelul (Jan 21, 2017)

Aether and the new Slate Reverb are top notch


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## creativeforge (Apr 25, 2017)

Bringing back this topic, rather than creating a new one.

I'm undecided with these Reverbs, to be used strictly with synth and vis.

I own Valhalla Room and TrueVerb, but something about the "trail" didn't thrill me. Granular fizzing out, or fattening the sound. Hi-pass and lo-pass didn't fix the artificial "fattening" of the sound.

However, Seventh Heaven did deliver a transparent trail, as if it lifted the sound from within, rather than forcing itself on it. And the AudioDamage EOS demo truly impressed me in that regard. SO, it's down to these three, mainly due to that transparency and the price point (+- $50).





https://www.audiodamage.com/products/ad023-eos?variant=21830175621





http://www.eareckon.com/en/products/eareverb-vst-au-reverb-plugin.html





https://www.liquidsonics.com/software/seventh-heaven/


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## Lee Blaske (Apr 25, 2017)

Have you checked out Galbanum B-2 (I believe there's a demo available). I own a lot of reverb plug-ins (and some cost a lot more than B-2), but I think B-2 is still the most interesting one I've got. It uses a LOT of computer power, though.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Apr 25, 2017)

creativeforge said:


> Bringing back this topic, rather than creating a new one.
> 
> I'm undecided with these Reverbs, to be used strictly with synth and vis.
> 
> ...



Have you tried the Valhalla Vintage? I always reach for it instead of the Room. I haven't been very happy with the Room but it's probably just my reverb programming skills. 

What about the Slate Verbsuite (cheaper than the Seventh Heaven but still gives you the M7 and a load of other vintage reverbs)? You can purchase it permanently instead of the monthly.

I just picked up the Seventh Heaven having barely tested it as I found out that they offer the edu discount on top of the intro promo price. I probably won't test it out extensively for a while. There's also the non pro version which is a lot cheaper.


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## creativeforge (Apr 25, 2017)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> Have you tried the Valhalla Vintage? I always reach for it instead of the Room. I haven't been very happy with the Room but it's probably just my reverb programming skills.
> 
> What about the Slate Verbsuite (cheaper than the Seventh Heaven but still gives you the M7 and a load of other vintage reverbs)? You can purchase it permanently instead of the monthly.
> 
> I just picked up the Seventh Heaven having barely tested it as I found out that they offer the edu discount on top of the intro promo price. I probably won't test it out extensively for a while. There's also the non pro version which is a lot cheaper.



Hmmm... Verbsuite is not in the price ballpark. But thanks for the suggestions! I've tried VVV, but still get that unnatural feeling about it (I know it may not describe what I hear correctly).


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## synthpunk (Apr 25, 2017)

Be sure to use it on AUX buss, and make sure your channels are set to PFL. Also use the Now setting over the 70's/80's.

If that doesn't work for you then your going to want to look at one of the more pristine and expensive verb plugins.



creativeforge said:


> Hmmm... Verbsuite is not in the price ballpark. But thanks for the suggestions! I've tried VVV, but still get that unnatural feeling about it (I know it may not describe what I hear correctly).


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Apr 25, 2017)

creativeforge said:


> Hmmm... Verbsuite is not in the price ballpark.



I thought you were looking at the Seventh Heaven Pro which is more expensive than the Verbsuite. My bad.


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## creativeforge (Apr 25, 2017)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> I thought you were looking at the Seventh Heaven Pro which is more expensive than the Verbsuite. My bad.



Oh, no I'm not that desperately needing something of that caliber/price, I am happy with these three options...


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## Living Fossil (Apr 25, 2017)

creativeforge said:


> I've tried VVV, but still get that unnatural feeling about it (I know it may not describe what I hear correctly).



That's not only _your_ experience...
I have VVV and it's one of the reverbs that get rather few use.
It's good in some occasions where it's about coloring a signal without creating too much sense of a space and the other options fail.

p.s. if you own some Focusrite products you could get this month Exponential Audio's R2 for free.
R2 is definitely in an other league...


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## creativeforge (Apr 25, 2017)

I do own a Focusrite product, I'll have to check the R2, thanks!


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## Fleer (Apr 25, 2017)

R2 is like VVV on steroids. Get it before the month is gone!


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## creativeforge (Apr 25, 2017)

Done! Now to play and test...


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## creativeforge (Apr 25, 2017)

Well well well...


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## JonSolo (Apr 25, 2017)

Lately I have been using FabFilter Pro-R on a send and it is fantastic. Lots of good glue when used this way.


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## galactic orange (Apr 25, 2017)

JonSolo said:


> Lately I have been using FabFilter Pro-R on a send and it is fantastic. Lots of good glue when used this way.


Pro-R will likely be the next reverb I pick up and hopefully the last one I'll need for a while. I get quite a hefty discount since I own all the other FabFilter products. At that price it's a great deal. I'm not sure what the original price is, but it's surely out of the OP's price range. But I think it's very flexible, intuitive, and sounds great.


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## creativeforge (Apr 25, 2017)

JonSolo said:


> Lately I have been using FabFilter Pro-R on a send and it is fantastic. Lots of good glue when used this way.



I will have to start doing that too, thanks for confirming the tip!


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## Raindog (Jun 20, 2017)

It´s an older thread but I have a question which might fit in. As a Focusrite customer I got the R2 reverb for free. I have used Valhalla so far, but I prefer R2 as it´s Sound is incredible. I have the opportunity to get R4 at a special upgrade price. For all users of this reverb. Would you think it´s worth to spend 150 $ to upgrade to R4 from R2?
Thanks for your help
Raindog


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## ceemusic (Jun 20, 2017)

I would save up for TC 's VSS3 instead. ( $199.00)
http://www.tcelectronic.com/vss3-native/


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