# Did I just get rolled ?



## ZosterX (Dec 23, 2020)

Hi, 

I was currently working for an AD as the composer. 

Been restarting several times the cue because apparently the client didn't like the score. I was originally payed 300$, and now those who employ me told me that the client reduce the budget because he did not validate the score, result i was paid 150$..

Being a novice in the industry, does clients have the right to reduce budget ? Actually, I don't really know who I have to trust right now : my employers or the client ? Maybe my employers (which are guys that I know personally) kept much for them ? 

Opinions guys ?


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## José Herring (Dec 23, 2020)

ZosterX said:


> Hi,
> 
> I was currently working for an AD as the composer.
> 
> ...


They don't have the right to use your song if the contract wasn't fulfilled. In the event that they are trying to short change you, then the only recourse you have is to hold on to the song and not grant permission to use it. 

But, for this small amount, I'd just rack it up to experience and move on.


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## doctoremmet (Dec 23, 2020)

José Herring said:


> But, for this small amount, I'd just rack it up to experience and move on.


Wise words. Yet being the vindictive asshole that I usually am, I would definitely not allow the use of the song and tell them to screw themselves


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## thorwald (Dec 23, 2020)

You had a contract, which states that you will compose a cue for $300. If they reduce the budget, they basically don't fulfill the contact agreed upon, so they don't have the permission to use your cue, unless they renegotiate, and you are okay with it.

The cost is not much, but you spent time and effort on it, and if the client did not validate the score, then it's their fault for not making sure, unless you had direct contact with the client.

It's irrelevant what the amount you would've received is, what matters is that they broke the contract that you have worked on. So no, it is absolutely unacceptable to just move on, even if you think it's not worth the hassle. Don't undersell your work.


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## doctoremmet (Dec 23, 2020)

thorwald said:


> Don't undersell your work.


Which for $300 you did, no matter what, in the first place I guess


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## Aaron Sapp (Dec 23, 2020)

Let them know that won't work for you, thank them for the opportunity and then run far away.


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## thorwald (Dec 23, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> Which for $300 you did, no matter what, in the first place I guess


It depends on a lot of things, for example the time it took, how popular the ad is, etc. $300 for about two minutes is reasonable, I think. But then again, some people charge 50 dollars for a minute, some charge a lot more, even going up to 50000, so opinions may vary.


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## Bman70 (Dec 23, 2020)

ZosterX said:


> Hi,
> 
> I was currently working for an AD as the composer.
> 
> ...



Is your contract with your employer friends or the client? They should be the ones refusing the client's demand to cut the pay in half. If they accepted it without consulting you first, employee needs to fire employers. I know it's only $150, but if you can't trust them with that what about when a $5000 job comes up.


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## davidson (Dec 23, 2020)

It sounds like you didn't have a contract in place before you started so I'd take this as a valuable learning experience and take the cheque. Just be thankful it was for hundreds and not thousands.

First thing you should do is pay a solicitor to write you up a contract template you can use in the future, or at the very least take one off the internet and modify where needed.


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## Minsky (Dec 23, 2020)

People are talking about contracts but did you actually sign one? If you didn’t then they can do what they like. You can either accept it, take a smaller fee and learn from it; or withhold the music and walk. If you have a contract then they need to pay you the agreed fee.


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## Rory (Dec 23, 2020)

ZosterX said:


> those who employ me told me that the client reduce the budget because he did not validate the score, result i was paid 150$.



This makes it sound like the client decided not to use your music ("he did not validate the score") and wants to pay you $150 rather than the originally agreed amount of $300 to settle the matter.

If that's what has happened, the only way to prevent a situation like this is to get paid up front, failing which your only recourse is to sue. Suing for $150 may not be a great way to spend your time.


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## colony nofi (Dec 23, 2020)

Yeah this is all very strange.
That kind of budget ($300) would be a demo fee. There is no one in the states or Uk commissioning music for an ad for a $300 budget.

for a demo fee, you can be asked to submit more demos. If you feel you have done all you can, you can say no after the first few (usually the people you are working for will negotiate a number of different demos, plus revisions for a demo price)

Then there is a win fee. Which is usually for the composer a percentage of the fee. It used to be minimum 50% everywhere - and still is in the UK (which has good protections generally) but in the US it can be much much lower. The world of ad composers in the US is hard. The wins can be big (as can be your royalties if you manage to hang onto them)

I’m a believer that composers should rail against companies not paying percentages on rollovers as well. It’s happening in Australia now and is in my opinion not ethical at all (and potentially against the law there - but that’s another story)

Now - if your demo fee was $300 and they asked you to reduce it to $150, it’s possible the client didn’t go with the track (that happens a tonne - some friends are getting one in 10 or even 20 demos picked up these days in the US!) but it’s unusual for the demo fee to be reduced. It might be the client needing a favour from the music agency - this stuff does happen. However, my position is that the music housea should absorb these fees as the composer isn’t gaining anything from reductions like that. Much depends on relationships.

you mention it’s a friend you’ve worked thru. I think it’s a really good time to go and ask them out for a beer and get them to talk to you about budgets. What your win percentages would be.Royalty splits too. Demo fee conditions. Agree to that between yourselves. Your friend will probably already have an info sheet for composers they work with drawn up. If they don’t, this is a good time to get them to make one. They won’t last long without it.
Contracts are important in this world - but usually come at the end of a project. But that’s another story entirely. I could write books on this stuff. It’s a pity not more is spoken about it.


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## Aaron Sapp (Dec 23, 2020)

Maybe it's $150 for a demo fee since you mentioned it wasn't validated (I'm guessing you mean approved)? Or are they offering $150 to reluctantly accept it since they aren't entirely satisfied? If the former, then yeah - take the fee. If the latter, then honestly the whole arrangement sounds borderline devious to me.


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## ZosterX (Dec 23, 2020)

Hi, thanks all for your kind help, really appreciate, what a great community ! :D

But maybe I should add more details to my problem.
To begin with, it's an ad from Vietnam, so I think the laws shouldn't be the same as in the US or UK, at least for copyright, contract and stuff.. maybe I'm wrong, I'm just entering the industry.
Also, I worked with my employers which holds an audio production company(original scoring, sound design and mix). Basically there are two studios: those who produced and edited the ad, and the other, my employers, the studio that does the sound design, mixing and musical composition. I didn't signed any contract, but my employers must have done one. Like I said, these are people that I know a bit personally, I don't think they would rolled me up. But maybe is it my mistake here ? That I should have asked for a contract to sign ?

According to the original email:
"_Dear Juilea & team,
For the fee, we agreed 23,000,000 VND net (_*which is more or less 1000 $*_) and we'll sign a freelance contract which was for the previous TVC project we did for Yamaha
As for timeline, we expect to get at least 2 time revisions from now to Dec 17th (dealine for music, online presentation), please see the brief below and kindly advise us about timeline_"

Technically, there was me, the composer, a sound designer, and the team lead: my employers. I guess we should have get 300$ each, but since they didn't "like" my score and probably put on another one, I got paid less. Logically, that would make sense. I don't think I'm going or even be able to sue anyone after all but for my ego, it's true that I take it badly haha.

I'll see anyway the final ad tomorrow, I will know if they put my song. Otherwise, I just have to protect my score with my copyright society.

Thanks again for all your responses


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## asherpope (Dec 23, 2020)

Sounds sketchy and highly likely you'll never even see that $150


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## Kuusniemi (Dec 23, 2020)

When money comes to play always write a contract whether it be with strangers or friends. It just makes things clear to everyone.

Personally have gone down the road of losing a good friend after we worked together on trust without a contract. I don't recommend that.


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## ZosterX (Dec 23, 2020)

asherpope said:


> Sounds sketchy and highly likely you'll never even see that $150



These are guys who teach in my previous school, they might get problems if they don't pay me lol


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## Ndee (Dec 23, 2020)

i would also move on, unless your life depends on that money. Stuff like that happens when you're starting out, and little by little you learn to smell a fishy deal, negotiate in advance, and be sure you know what you're getting into.

Not signing any contracts over small, one-time deals is not unusual at least in my circles, and being sub-contracted by friends is pretty standard as well. You might be offered tons of similar deals in your lifetime. I usually try to speculate in advance how something might go south, and then weight that possibility against the pay offered.

+ I think some people might believe in this myth where all creatives move up the ladder eventually, but let's be honest, a big percentage of us, esp. those living outside the industry hotspots or working in more experimental areas such as contemporary art, end up doing small temp gigs throughout their careers, with one or two meatier catches annually. I very much compete over the same deals as people both 20 years older and younger than me. Welcome to the precariat! It's dumb but sometimes it's fun and at least you don't need to be at an office


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## Jeremy Spencer (Dec 23, 2020)

ZosterX said:


> I didn't signed any contract, but my employers must have done one. Like I said, these are people that I know a bit personally, I don't think they would rolled me up. But maybe is it my mistake here ? That I should have asked for a contract to sign ?



Yes, but an honest mistake, you'll have a few of these. You'll also find out pretty quick who your friends are.


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## telecode101 (Dec 23, 2020)

..


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## Living Fossil (Dec 23, 2020)

ZosterX said:


> Being a novice in the industry, does clients have the right to reduce budget ? Actually, I don't really know who I have to trust right now : my employers or the client ? Maybe my employers (which are guys that I know personally) kept much for them ?



It's quite usual that you won't get the complete fee if your work is rejected. Usually in the contract there is a splitting of the whole amount in different parts, so that you will get between 30-60% of the full amount in this case.

However, let me point out the other perspective:
As a director, if you employ a composer, you do it because you believe he/she will deliver something that serves the project. 
I've been several times in the position to take over the music in feature films after the original composer was fired, and there wasn't a single time where the director was happy that he had to make the decision to fire someone. Besides the fact that collaborations are often based on sympathy and such decisions usually end friendships, there is also the financial aspect:
It also costs more, since in addition to a partial fee (for the fired guy) the producers have to provide a full fee for the new one. 

Of course, you can complain etc, but it will rather hurt your reputation, and you will not only lose one client but other potential clients. 
From a rational point of view, the best thing you could to is to analyze what could be the reason they didn't like what you provided.


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## Bman70 (Dec 23, 2020)

Sounds like you're in a "work for hire" arrangement, where instead of royalties you just get a flat fee per composition. If they used your song even after paying you less, that's sad but you can at least say you retain the rights... after all if you signed no contract you didn't sign away your rights. So you can upload it to Pond5, Youtube and sell it to other people too.


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## colony nofi (Dec 28, 2020)

Yeah - While I've done a few spots in Vietnam but they still had budgets that far exceeded $300 for music when it came to a composed track. There maybe parts of the industry that work at this $ level - but I'm not sure how that would work... unless its outside the standard agency based advertising and is a second lower tier (possible!). Now, it is also possible your mate was doing a job with only a production music budget... but if he was, then in my opinion it is ethically wrong to ask someone to undercut the entire industry and compose a bespoke track from the same amount as production music - and if the ethics can be argued away, then I still think there is a strong argument regarding damage to the industry (and their OWN business).

Its not so much about laws in this case as to just what fee's you're being offered, and then how an agreed amount was changed without your input.

Anyway - I hope you figure it out. My first question over a beer is to get frank figures regarding what normal jobs are worth $ wise. I don't know a single composition house that wont share the budget when asked (and most share the budget before being asked, as most composition fees are based on a percentage of budget)


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