# Do you mix from Audio Stems, or Directly from your Virtual Instruments when mixing Orchestral Music ?



## muziksculp (Oct 4, 2021)

Hi,

I'm curious to read some feedback about this topic.

i.e. What is your general approach to mixing, or your Stages of mixing your orchestral tracks, using your Orchestral Sample Libraries ? and at what stage of your mix do you begin applying plugins, i.e. EQ, Compressors, ..etc. ? 

Do you mix using the Audio Stems that you generate from your song ? or do you add plugins directly to your Sample Libraires VSTs ? or at both stages ? 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## holywilly (Oct 4, 2021)

I always mix my tracks in audio. I render all my instruments and MIDI tracks (individual instrument) to audio and import them to a new projects for mixing.

Then I mix with buses and leave individual track untouched except some solo instruments that need to take extra care of.


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## jmauz (Oct 4, 2021)

This has been discussed ad nauseam here. A quick search will reveal everyone does it differently. There's no right or wrong way...whatever works for you and your workflow.


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## muziksculp (Oct 4, 2021)

holywilly said:


> I always mix my tracks in audio. I render all my instruments and MIDI tracks (individual instrument) to audio and import them to a new projects for mixing.
> 
> Then I mix with buses and leave individual track untouched except some solo instruments that need to take extra care of.


Hi @holywilly ,

Thanks for the helpful feedback. 

One more question for you. 

Do you use any plugins on the Instrument tracks i.e. EQ/Compr, .etc. before you generate the Stems ? or do you just leave them as is, until you get to the Stem Mixing phase of the production ?


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## muziksculp (Oct 4, 2021)

jmauz said:


> This has been discussed ad nauseam here. A quick search will reveal everyone does it differently. There's no right or wrong way...whatever works for you and your workflow.


I thought it will be easy to find this specific topic via search, but that's not been my experience so far. Hence I decided to post this.

Thanks.


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## holywilly (Oct 4, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @holywilly ,
> 
> Thanks for the helpful feedback.
> 
> ...


I don't really apply any plugins on my instrument tracks, I leave what is it. However, I do apply effects to my instruments tracks if I want to shape the sound, or creative process.

So generally speaking, I left everything clean before the stems.


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## musicalweather (Oct 4, 2021)

Generally do the mixing on audio stems. But I do apply certain effects -- EQ, compression, or reverb -- to some instruments before I bounce them to audio. Compression, if needed, generally comes into play when mixing the audio tracks.


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## muziksculp (Oct 4, 2021)

holywilly said:


> I don't really apply any plugins on my instrument tracks, I leave what is it. However, I do apply effects to my instruments tracks if I want to shape the sound, or creative process.
> 
> So generally speaking, I left everything clean before the stems.


THANKS  

That was very helpful feedback. I appreciate it.


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## muziksculp (Oct 4, 2021)

musicalweather said:


> Generally do the mixing on audio stems. But I do apply certain effects -- EQ, compression, or reverb -- to some instruments before I bounce them to audio. Compression, if needed, generally comes into play when mixing the audio tracks.


THANKS


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## AudioLoco (Oct 5, 2021)

For me it makes sense to make the arrangement work with no processing whatsoever (or almost any).
Often not even a service reverb.
Only when there is something to fix, or some sound design-y stuff with 16 plugins in series  , or I'm using a super dry library with other wet ones (like LASS for example) and want to make them sound a bit more uniform, I will process the individual instrument track while writing/producing. 

When everything is ready and approved I bounce/render individual tracks to audio and send them to groups etc. Usually the heavy lifting processing wise happens on the groups and the individual tracks get treatment only if needed.

This is my old school approach, produce-mix-master as very separate processes. 
I know many that mix as they go... Everyone has their own way.


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## jcrosby (Oct 5, 2021)

I work two ways for two different scenarios... My templates are pre-mixed on the busses and I can deliver generic production music as is after just a few small adjustments since the pre-mix is pretty solid. For trailers it's a different ballgame, the mix has to really slam, some extra (mix) automation's pretty much unavoidable, and they require stems anyway... So for trailers I export stems (typically more than will be delivered), and mix in a new session...


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## Beat Kaufmann (Oct 8, 2021)

As one who has always used Windwos, I used to be a Logic user. In those days, memory was expensive and people even cut up individual audio tracks to save memory space.
Of course, that's why you mixed out of the instruments as much as possible. I continued this practice with Cubase as well - until one day the PC crashed... 

I could no longer install Logic and many of the old VST instruments were no longer available. I still had all the old projects - even those from Logic - but they were worthless. Work from many years was simply gone or useless.

*Implementation of the made experience*
As soon as the environment is no longer right (licenses are gone, libraries are no longer installed or in the same place, dongels are missing, software is missing, effects are missing, instruments are missing, ...), whole projects can be worthless.
Since then, every project is read out at the end (each instrument an audio file without effects) and usually mixed audio-wise at the same time. With this basic material I will still be able to make a mix from it in 30 years, even if VSL , Spitfire & Co. all no longer exist...

Probably the best thing to do is to make a list of + and - for yourself and then decide. 
--------------------------------------
The question of whether to mix directly from the instruments or via audio files has to do not only with technical aspects, but also with how you want to store your projects...


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## Trash Panda (Oct 8, 2021)

I do a bit of a hybrid approach.

During the arrangement, I'll apply placeholder compressors (typically SmartComp) on some instruments and busses along with any "sound design" style effects, such as using EQ/saturator/exciter to change the timbre of an orchestral VI or re-amping guitar/bass VIs or something like Accentize Chameleon if I want to put dry samples into a wetter environment with other wetter VIs.

Other than placeholder compressors, I consider the insert FX plugins as part of the desired initial sound, so they stay in place while the comps get yanked at mixing time. I'll then save as a new copy of the project and then freeze/convert all tracks to audio. This way if any problems arise during the mix that can be more easily solved by a quick change in arrangement than with volume automation or a plugin, I can revert the track to MIDI and re-freeze afterwards.

Once I'm happy with the mix, I'll 0 out the gain applied by the 2-bus limiter and render to a WAV file and open another project for mastering.


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## dzilizzi (Oct 8, 2021)

I tend to mix in audio mostly because adding a bunch of effects on top of running VIs tends to crash my computer. Plus audio is a fixed sound. if you have VIs with round robins, the sound may slightly change every take. Mostly, it is not noticeable, but sometimes it is.


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## Henning (Oct 8, 2021)

I mix while composing. There's no advantage for me personally to render to audio. It would cost me lots of time actually. I always send my music ready- mixed to customers. In most cases there will be some iterations before the track is approved. So I always have to stay in the midi realm anyway. Sometimes I render to stems when customers want them for their own mixing process. But stem export is the last action I do on a project.


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## muziksculp (Oct 8, 2021)

Hi,

It's interesting to read the various approaches posted here about this topic. 

Thanks for all of your helpful feedback.


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## KEM (Oct 8, 2021)

I’d say you should always mix in audio, that way you’re just focusing on the mix, if you’re doing it directly in the project then you’ll get distracted by production stuff


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## muziksculp (Oct 8, 2021)

KEM said:


> I’d say you should always mix in audio, that way you’re just focusing on the mix, if you’re doing it directly in the project then you’ll get distracted by production stuff


Thanks for the feedback.  

Yes, I can relate to this method. 

Since you will not have anything but Audio Stems to work with, no midi, or Instrument tracks to distract the workflow. Plus, the DAW is less strained by the CPU load of the Virtual Instruments/Libraries. 

Just importing the Stems into a new Mixing project/song for the mix, and mastering phase of the production appeals to me.


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## muk (Oct 9, 2021)

For me mixing directly in the mockup works best. I never bounce to audio. See, mixing is mainly about balancing the instruments against each other for me. And I don't mean the volumes only, but also the stage placement (what part of the stereo image an instrument or section occupies), the reverb (how the instruments blend together spatially), the frequency range (what part of the frequency range does an instrument occupy? Where does it overlap with other instruments?). And so on. And all these decisions do influence the way I perform each individual instrument.

For me, mixing decisions do influence my performance. So I do usually start with pre-mixed instruments. When I change something in the mix - add a different kind of reverb to an instrument, for example - often I want to change certain aspects in the performance after that. If I shorten the length of the reverb, I might want to change the ending of a phrase to fade out a bit slower than it did before. If I make some eq cuts, I might want to perform certain passages just a tad louder to keep the same balance.

By far the most common action I take in mixing is balancing the volumes of the instruments against each other. And that is not adjusting the volume faders. Maybe a single oboe line is a too quiet against the accompaniment. More often than not I want to choose another velocity layer, thus I have to alter the performance (increase the cc1 values). Simply raising the volume gives another effect - making a quiet velocity layer louder. Sometimes I do want that too, but more often I want to change the velocity layer. When bounced to audio, this can't be done anymore. That's why for me mixing in the mockup works better.


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## Saxer (Oct 9, 2021)

Mostly while working clients I stay in the MIDI world. Too much editing and doing it all again wouldn't make sense. And I have a lot of pre-mixed stacks or adjustments to rooms (different room orchestras with dry instruments etc). Hours/days/years/ of work went into it. No way to deconstruct everything to rebuild it in the mix. It would be like bouncing the single oscillators of a synth pad to different audio tracks.
Some editing parts are easier done in the audio world. Especially micro-timing edits in CC heavy MIDI tracks are a nightmare to edit (like tracks played by windcontroller) and crossfading or volume adjustments or long pads and textures. That are the parts I bounce to audio.


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## Living Fossil (Oct 9, 2021)

For most things i don't see a need to convert it to audio.
But there are some exceptions:

1) it's easier to allign time critical material in audio.

2) with long evolving sounds it can be a pita to start playback from a point where that sound can behave properly.

3) Sometimes with extremely processed sounds i like to bounce in place and get rid of the long fx-chain.
In these cases i save the channel with the bunch of plugins as a channelstrip setting but then usually disable it. So i can go back in one click if it's needed.

4) When a track involves elements that are complex per se but don't fit the usual style of that track, i do it often in extra session. E.g. if a complex electronic part has some orchestral elements i could do the latter in an extra project and then import the audio. (BTW that's the way when i record a bunch of parts with real instruments. I want to have them in a separate project and then bounce the submix.

And then there are situations once in a while where i get annoyed of a session (e.g. because it puts the CPU constantly an its limit). Then it may occur that i print stems and go on from there. But that's like 1 out of 70 times.


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## Tim_Wells (Oct 9, 2021)

Often feel I must render to audio to correct timing issues of the midi playback.


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## Hoo (Oct 9, 2021)

这取决于个人选择。我的建议是（仅供参考）：

——对于准备用于发行的成品音乐：
必须全部渲染成分轨音频文件予以存档（可以依旧保留轨道挂载的乐器和MIDI等信息），以防止今后因软件过时、升级或其他一些不可抗拒或个人疏忽的因素而导致工程无完整的分轨文件。这是根本问题；

——对于那些暂未完成音乐工程：
可以直接在乐器轨道/MIDI轨道上进行混音（仍然建议渲染成音频文件）。

Hoo
2021年10月10日
中国·广东


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## muziksculp (Oct 9, 2021)

Hoo said:


> 这取决于个人选择。我的建议是（仅供参考）：
> 
> ——对于准备用于发行的成品音乐：
> 必须全部渲染成分轨音频文件予以存档（可以依旧保留轨道挂载的乐器和MIDI等信息），以防止今后因软件过时、升级或其他一些不可抗拒或个人疏忽的因素而导致工程无完整的分轨文件。这是根本问题；
> ...


English Please


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## Trash Panda (Oct 9, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> English Please


It depends on personal choice. My suggestion is (for reference only):

——For the finished music to be released:
All audio files must be rendered into tracks and archived (you can still keep track-mounted instruments and MIDI information) to prevent future software outdated, upgrades, or other irresistible or personal negligence factors that will cause the project to have no complete tracks document. This is the fundamental problem;

——For those who have not yet completed the music project:
It can be mixed directly on the instrument track/MIDI track (it is still recommended to render into an audio file).

Hoo
October 10, 2021
China·Guangdong


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## muziksculp (Oct 9, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> It depends on personal choice. My suggestion is (for reference only):
> 
> ——For the finished music to be released:
> All audio files must be rendered into tracks and archived (you can still keep track-mounted instruments and MIDI information) to prevent future software outdated, upgrades, or other irresistible or personal negligence factors that will cause the project to have no complete tracks document. This is the fundamental problem;
> ...


@Trash Panda ,

Thanks for the translation


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## muziksculp (Oct 9, 2021)

@Hoo,

Thanks for the helpful feedback.


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## Kery Michael (Oct 9, 2021)

Lots of interesting techniques being mentioned here.

I usually work completely in MIDI but now I see that there’s some good reasons for working with audio files.


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## dzilizzi (Oct 9, 2021)

When I write in ProTools, it is very easy to bounce tracks, then disable and hide the instrument track. Then if I need to fix it, I can always enable & unhide, fix what needs fixing, bounce and then disable and re-hide. There's a lot of viewing/grouping options in ProTools that make this really easy to do. I'm sure there are similar things in Cubase, but I'm still trying to figure things out.


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## Henu (Oct 10, 2021)

There is, and this is also exactly what I've started to do since last spring as well. It's definitely the way to go for me for the abovementioned reasons. Best of both worlds!

When I'm finally finished and delivered, I show and enable all the VST tracks again, clone the (mixed) channel settings to those, delete the audio tracks, disable every plugin and save the show as a template.


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## Tim_Wells (Oct 10, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> When I write in ProTools, it is very easy to bounce tracks, then disable and hide the instrument track. Then if I need to fix it, I can always enable & unhide, fix what needs fixing, bounce and then disable and re-hide. There's a lot of viewing/grouping options in ProTools that make this really easy to do. I'm sure there are similar things in Cubase, but I'm still trying to figure things out.


Sadly, this is one of the irritants (bugs) with Cubase. At least with version 10 on Windows. If you "disable" a virtual instrument track it gets screwed up. You can't re-enable and bring it back to it's original state. 

You can simply de-activate the VI and save some resources. That works fine and so does disable track on regular audio.

(edit: Disable Track seems to be working now. See below.)


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## Henu (Oct 10, 2021)

Tim_Wells said:


> If you "disable" a virtual instrument track it gets screwed up. You can't re-enable and bring it back to it's original state.


I do this all the time- in fact, I even have a toggle enable/disable macro for it due to being so regular part of my workflow and I've never encountered a single issue. How does it get screwed up for you?


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## Tim_Wells (Oct 11, 2021)

Henu said:


> I do this all the time- in fact, I even have a toggle enable/disable macro for it due to being so regular part of my workflow and I've never encountered a single issue. How does it get screwed up for you?


I'm glad you challenged my assertion, because I just did a quick test and Disable/Enable Track seems to be working now. I don't know if it's my new PC or what. But either way, that's great! Thank you!

I don't remember exactly what it use to do, but basically, when re-enabling it lost the connection to the VI. Going by my shaky memory, it seems like the VI was just gone and I had to reload a new instance. That was a major pain if I did a lot of customizations to the sound, key switches, CC controllers, etc. 

There was known issue with Disable Tracks, but that may have been finally fixed.








disable track bug


I think the issue where disabling/re-enabling MIDI tracks doesn’t re-connect to the correct instrument track destination is known, but I’ve been noticing a spinoff bug of this. If I disable/enable a track and it breaks the connections, I can fix everything (all tracks playing properly), save...




forums.steinberg.net













Has the notorious Track Archives / Disabled Track bug actually been fixed?


This related to the very long standing CAN 13042 https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=253&t=123873&start=50 , which affects multichannel disabled tracks and track archives. A rep claimed this was fixed in 9.5.41, but this was unable to be replicated by anyone. However I have heard...




forums.steinberg.net


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## Nyran (Oct 15, 2021)

As other have said I prefer to have audio stems or individual tracks exported and then mixed (especially if there are live instruments and/or vocals added later). I have lost too many projects due to DAW changes, plugins/ VI not updated and also it helps clear my mind from the composing/orchestrating side to the production side. I prefer mixing/editing in Pro tools but hate the midi handling and that too has something to do with it.


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