# Epic productions - the Zimmer way



## MoonFlare (Oct 18, 2012)

I'm not into the massive, epic productions that Zimmer make. That is, they sound awesome, but learning how to make these kinds of scores hasn't been something I've used a lot of time on. The main reason is that the films I score is not Hollywood blockbusters (or similar suitable films). Hehe.

Anyway, I was thinking about learning a little bit about how to produce these epic tracks. I know there is a "Zimmer spiccato" thread, and that Daniel James has some youtube videos on this. But I still wonder about some basic things. It would be great if someone would like to share their knowledge!

- I hear (obviously) the french horns which are used heavily. But are these doubled with trombones? Put differently, what are the trombones used for (in the epic Zimmer tracks)?

- Are the french horns only playing single note in unison, or chords?

- Is the french horns (playing legato) doubled by legato playing strings?

- I assume Zimmer adds a synthesised bass to the mix. Is there a guide to synthesise such a bass? Or, is it simply just a sine wave used as sub?

- Other tips that can make the tracks more powerful and energetic?


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 18, 2012)

Think outside the box. 
Mind the dynamic range (leave room to go big).
Use a lot of elbow grease.
Compare your sound/mix to tracks you're aiming for.
Be bold, mix genres, create new instrument combinations for an even bigger sound.
Playing hard on instruments does not necessarily yield a fat sound, so strike at a medium velocity and bring up the level.
Use counterpoint to fill up the space.
Give synthesized sounds the same place as acoustic sounds in the mix.
Use high-quality synths.
Create a very good listening environment for yourself.
Work hard on every sound that is used in a track.
Learn how to not abuse compressors/limiters.
Did I mention think outside the box?
Spread your material order a wide frequency range, have a rich arrangement/mix.
Skip a meal or two.


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## Resoded (Oct 18, 2012)

Brace yourself, here we go!



(a joke considering how some people hate the genre so much and aren't afraid to tell it)


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 18, 2012)

Actually, I'd like to propose that anyone who comes here just to put down anything related to epic soundtracks simply find another thread to participate in. Respect!


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## adg21 (Oct 18, 2012)

Ned's advice is great. 
Some of my favorite Zimmer pieces are essentially giant crescendos / builds so minding the dynamic range is particularly good advice for that, not to mention that some sounds are just fuller (more epic if you like) when played at lower dynamics, particularly drums. As Ned says every sound needs to be very carefully chosen / layered / processed with a hell of lot of a attention to detail. I think Zimmer mixes as he writes so a good mixing environment is also key.


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## Mike Marino (Oct 18, 2012)

I think Ned makes some excellent points. What you might want to do is pick one of Hans' tracks that you'd like to model after and put your hand in at arranging it as practice. Load a Hans track into your DAW and compose against it....then you can A/B against the track by simply soloing Hans against your arrangement. See how close you can get to the sound by simply trying new things. This plus Ned's advice plus some time should start getting you some answers.

Hope that helps.


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## Rob (Oct 18, 2012)

Ned Bouhalassa @ 18th October 2012 said:


> Think outside the box.
> Mind the dynamic range (leave room to go big).
> Use a lot of elbow grease.
> Compare your sound/mix to tracks you're aiming for.
> ...



excellent, real life advice, Ned!


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## gsilbers (Oct 18, 2012)

MoonFlare @ Thu Oct 18 said:


> I'm not into the massive, epic productions that Zimmer make. That is, they sound awesome, but learning how to make these kinds of scores hasn't been something I've used a lot of time on. The main reason is that the films I score is not Hollywood blockbusters (or similar suitable films). Hehe.
> 
> Anyway, I was thinking about learning a little bit about how to produce these epic tracks. I know there is a "Zimmer spiccato" thread, and that Daniel James has some youtube videos on this. But I still wonder about some basic things. It would be great if someone would like to share their knowledge!
> 
> ...



since you metioned daniel james. he has a lot of youtube videos showcasing this type of questions. for the brass maybe check out the cinebrass video he did. 

its like any genre, you practice and get used to it. like techno music and house music sure sounds simple to make but then when you try to do it , it doesnt sound good and you realize there is a lot more going on that at first thought and its mainly knowing the genre, knowing produciton tricks, types of sounds and arrangements etc.


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## MoonFlare (Oct 18, 2012)

Thanks guys for your sharing your insight!

Any more specific thoughts regarding the questions are, of course, still welcome! 

Is there a reason why people do not like this particular subgenre?


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## Darthmorphling (Oct 18, 2012)

One thing I am noticing with a lot of these types of tracks is that the low instruments tend to be more percussive/riff oriented. Take for instance the Eagle Eye soundtrack by Brian Tyler. A lot of the motifs used throughout the cues would make a pretty decent metal song if they were played on an electric guitar, through a high gain amp. Several of Daniel James' stuff has that quality as well.

When I say metal, there are a ton of different styles in that genre, and not all of them have these kinds of riffs, but I always referred to them as 'chunky'.

As a matter of fact I started out trying to compose these kinds of tracks just on keyboard as I really wanted to become better at it. However, guitar is what I am decent at so why not write riffs/motifs on it and then play them on the keyboard?

That being said, I am still learning all of this and have about 20 started pieces and none are finished. This style is a lot harder than it looks.

Another thing I have started doing is score reduction. It is a long process, but I have a shortcut for these types of pieces. Daniel's videos make it easy actually.

Take for instance his Cinematic Strings video. I looked at each particular section and kind of sketched out how many bars the ostinatum lasted. I vaguely described how, and when the melodies overlayed the rhythms. I also looked at all of the different layers of sounds that he adds to each track, that make them really shine.

To me it was more about studying the structure and layering of sounds then the actual notes. This is not to say that notes are not important, because writing melodies is a difficult skill. I can write them, but arranging them seems to be my Achille's hill.

Now when I do a John William's piece, I do the traditional type of reduction.

I hope this helps.


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## Dan Mott (Oct 18, 2012)

I always thought this genre is just pure fun. I'd like to learn more about it too. Watching Daniel James's videos has helped, even though I do think they are a little long with a bit too much rambling :D no offense to him.


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## José Herring (Oct 18, 2012)

Learn to mix music. Hans is a man that can make a pencil tapping on a desk sound epic. So there's more to it than just the notes and orchestration. I've been studying a lot on mixing. There's an excellent series of videos called "Into the Lair" by a guy named Pensado that has a lot of video tutorials on how to build a mix, widen tracks, compression techniques, EQ use to make a track sound bigger. The videos have been very helpful in making my music sound bigger without having to change everything I do in order to get that "Epic" sound. In truth I don't even really know what "Epic" means when it comes to music. Neither do most people.

Just as an example, I've been told that this track sounds "Epic". But there's nothing that special about the track. It's really quite simple. But, it achieves a certain sound that has become popular: http://soundcloud.com/jherringmusic/rise


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## Darthmorphling (Oct 18, 2012)

Can we hope for a video walkthrough by Mr. Zimmer? :mrgreen:


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## MacQ (Oct 18, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sK_OHoVDvJQ

Alan Meyerson is/was the score mixer on a LOT of that "epic" stuff. This video is great, and I learned a few tricks from it. (This is the series Jose referenced just above).


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## lee (Oct 18, 2012)

Guessing no. Most likely the man himself wants people to try to create their own sound, not mimic his.


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## Darthmorphling (Oct 18, 2012)

lee @ Thu Oct 18 said:


> Guessing no. Most likely the man himself wants people to try to create their own sound, not mimic his.



It was more of a tongue in cheek comment o-[][]-o


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## José Herring (Oct 18, 2012)

MacQ @ Thu Oct 18 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sK_OHoVDvJQ
> 
> Alan Meyerson is/was the score mixer on a LOT of that "epic" stuff. This video is great, and I learned a few tricks from it. (This is the series Jose referenced just above).




That was a good interview for sure, but doesn't get into how things are done, just more what.

These series of videos give more detail. Dave Pensado does mostly Rap, pop and R&B mixing, but the techniques are valid even for what we do, since so much of what we do is a mixture of genres these days:

http://www.pensadosplace.tv/category/into-the-lair/

I suggest starting with the older videos and working your way up.


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## lee (Oct 18, 2012)

Darthmorphling @ Thu Oct 18 said:


> It was more of a tongue in cheek comment o-[][]-o



:D


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## adg21 (Oct 18, 2012)

also read this post by the man himself
http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... t=#3614029


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## Resoded (Oct 18, 2012)

Darthmorphling @ 18th October 2012 said:


> As a matter of fact I started out trying to compose these kinds of tracks just on keyboard as I really wanted to become better at it. However, guitar is what I am decent at so why not write riffs/motifs on it and then play them on the keyboard?



Yeah I'm doing the same thing. Playing repeated notes on a keyboard is really hard, at least for me with my extremely limited piano skills. I find it much easier to write spiccato patterns on my guitar. Or with my voice... I swear, if someone would hear me write music they'd send me to the mental hospital.


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## cc64 (Oct 18, 2012)

Resoded @ Thu Oct 18 said:


> Playing repeated notes on a keyboard is really hard, at least for me with my extremely limited piano skills.



Hi Resoded,

i feel you. For repeated notes on the keyboard a good trick is to use both hands alternating, RLRLRLRL...

This works well playing repeated single notes or even chords although chords are a bit trickier for non-keyboard players...

Here's where i learned this trick a long time ago after scratching my head trying to figure how Tony Banks played this line, then the video came out and got me out of my misery ; )

Check the technique at around 0;05 seconds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI0fk_gCdzE

HTH _-)


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## Darthmorphling (Oct 18, 2012)

Resoded @ Thu Oct 18 said:


> Darthmorphling @ 18th October 2012 said:
> 
> 
> > As a matter of fact I started out trying to compose these kinds of tracks just on keyboard as I really wanted to become better at it. However, guitar is what I am decent at so why not write riffs/motifs on it and then play them on the keyboard?
> ...



It's not even the spiccato patterns. There are these string/brass/perc motifs that are not spiccatos, but just thick and chuggy. "To the Pirates Cave" from the first pirates movie is the best example of what I am talking about. I have tried writing those types of things on keyboard and it is much harder than writing them on guitar. Now once I have it composed on guitar, it becomes easier to play it on keyboard.

My kids look at me wierd now as I will record voice messages to myself singing a riff idea.


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## adg21 (Oct 18, 2012)

Darthmorphling @ Thu Oct 18 said:


> My kids look at me wierd now as I will record voice messages to myself singing a riff idea.


Does it sound like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2yD4yDsiP4


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## gsilbers (Oct 18, 2012)

Darthmorphling @ Thu Oct 18 said:


> Can we hope for a video walkthrough by Mr. Zimmer? :mrgreen:



a live feed like deadmau5 has. like 3 hours watchign the guy sit in front of the computer


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## ThomasL (Oct 18, 2012)

josejherring @ 2012-10-18 said:


> These series of videos give more detail. Dave Pensado does mostly Rap, pop and R&B mixing, but the techniques are valid even for what we do, since so much of what we do is a mixture of genres these days:
> 
> http://www.pensadosplace.tv/category/into-the-lair/
> 
> I suggest starting with the older videos and working your way up.


Lots and lots of good info in that series. Works for any genre.


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## Darthmorphling (Oct 18, 2012)

adg21 @ Thu Oct 18 said:


> Darthmorphling @ Thu Oct 18 said:
> 
> 
> > My kids look at me wierd now as I will record voice messages to myself singing a riff idea.
> ...



I wish I could say mine sounded as good :D 

What's funny is that about halfway through it I got caught up in the visuals and the fact it was acapello no longer mattered. Great music is great music!


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## MoonFlare (Oct 18, 2012)

Darthmorphling: Thanks for your tips. I will definitely study Daniel James' videos more closely. I also agree
that the themes seem less important in these kind of pieces (though Zimmer usually has good themes).

Dan-Jay: Exactly, it seems fun to make these kinds of tracks, even though they may not be "applicable" to much.

josejherring: That's a good point. I agree, it's probably the type of sound (or sound picture) that is being considered 
as epic.

MacQ: Hm...I there was a message saying that the video could not be viewed.

Resoded: Haha, I bet!


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## Darthmorphling (Oct 19, 2012)

MoonFlare @ Thu Oct 18 said:


> Darthmorphling: Thanks for your tips. I will definitely study Daniel James' videos more closely. I also agree
> that the themes seem less important in these kind of pieces (though Zimmer usually has good themes).



I think you may have misunderstood me and reading my post I can see why. I think that themes and motifs are extremely important in these kinds of tracks. Without them you have lots of layered sounds and nothing to hold them together in an interesting way. I was trying to say that I was studying his videos currently for how he arranges, and layers, his pieces.

I find myself writing all kinds of themes. Some are good and most are bad. What I am looking for is how these composers arrange their motifs. Also how the different sounds work together. This way I can transform the pieces I have already created into a coherent piece of music. Layering sounds can take a decent sounding melody and make it a lot more interesting.

Arranging is just as important as composing in writing music.

I also think its important for people to keep talking about these ideas even if their experience level is not as high as others. My 5th graders are having a hard time with multistep word problems. I have them broken up into groups. The groups are then discussing how to solve the problems. Its interesting seeing the discussions as some are heading in wrong directions. The great part is that the others are proving why their approach is correct. There is this awesome collaborative effort going on and the ones who struggle are seeing how the others think.

Reading some of the posts here, I get the impression that some, *not all*, believe that certain composers are not worth studying. I believe you can learn from every composer. How much you learn is dependent on the work you put into studying, as well as how good the person you are studying seems to be.

I feel my experience level is not that high when it comes to music so I will offer some advice as an educator.

When you go about studying a piece, I would limit the analysis to one particular component during any particular study session. It's easy to get caught up in trying to learn everything at once, but the human brain does work that way.

If you are working on counterpoint, focus solely on that. Once you have studied a couple of pieces, try and create a short example of your own. Then compare it to the pieces you were studying.

Maybe we should start a collaborative learning session here where a particular aspect of composing is discussed. Newbs, and the pros if willing, can post small pieces of their work with an emphasis on that particular composing skill. We can then dissect them. Each week can have a different topic.


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## MoonFlare (Oct 21, 2012)

But I still think that a lot of these "epic" tracks do not have any particular interesting themes. They merely comprise a lot of well structured sounds layered together.

Yeah, focusing on one thing at the time is good, but I think it depends a little bit on how patient and disciplined you are. Hehe. It's easy to be distracted by other elements in the track if focusing on only one.


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