# What type of keyboard controller for Orchestral programming?



## Levon (Jan 4, 2017)

Hello,

What type of keyboard controller would people recommend for programming orchestral ensembles? (E.g. Albion One, MA Ark)

Can I get away with 61 keys or do I really need 88 keys?

Also is semi weighted synth action keys ok or would I be better off with fully weighted piano style keys?

Thanks,
Levon


----------



## guydoingmusic (Jan 4, 2017)

You can program on a 2 octave keyboard with mini keys... it really just comes down to personal preference. I prefer using an 88 key so I have the full keyboard right in front of me at all times without having to octave up and down to reach other keys. I also would rather have weighted keys for most things - mainly because of being a piano player. Having said that - there are some very successful composers on here using smaller, non-weighted keyboards.


----------



## JohnG (Jan 4, 2017)

Hi Levon -- there have been a few threads about this. Most strong piano players prefer fully-weighted keys, but if you plan to be at the keyboard for 12 hours a day or more, that can be a bit tiring. In that case, semi-weighted can be better.

I would cast around for other, recent threads, as this is territory that has been covered in (ahem) excruciating detail fairly recently.


----------



## gsilbers (Jan 4, 2017)

what johng and guydoingmusic said. 

i ended up getting the acorn masterkey61 because it was small in size and it had 4 controller plus volume and wheels. 
i wanted to keep it simple and i like being close to the pc screen. i used to have a virus ti big keyboard and it was too big. then an maudio49 but needed an octave more. so slowly i kept evolving to what i liked most. 
my next one might be the behringer deepmind 12 which is a synth. so back full circle but this time smaller synth. 

my point is that everyone prefers something different. if you want the most and best answer it would be this

http://www.doepfer.de/lmk2.htm

thats the one covetet the most by composers. it can be installed into the desk and hans zimmer uses it so whatever he has everyone buys


----------



## Bluedive (Apr 11, 2017)

Hi Gsilbers, can you share few words about masterkey61, I'm thinking of ordering it online, can't really test it.How does key's feel? I use to have maudio 49 and it was ok to me. 
Thanks


----------



## muk (Apr 11, 2017)

gsilbers said:


> if you want the most and best answer it would be this
> 
> http://www.doepfer.de/lmk2.htm



It is widely used, but I can't see much compelling reason for that. Doepfer uses Fatar keybeds, and the exact same keybeds can be found in much less expensive keyboards. So with Doepfer you are paying hefty premiums for a sturdy case.


----------



## hyperscientist (Apr 11, 2017)

When you do a research on the internet looking for a quality keyboard with good action that is not weighted / piano-like, then it seems that two most voted for are Novation SL mk2 and Roland A-800 Pro. Both seem to have a good, consistent action with some giving slight edge towards SL. On the other hand A-800 seem to have better quality all around, which means sliders and pots. Probably both are pretty much just as good.

If you need a weighted keyboard with a grand piano feel (and aesthetics), then simply get a Kawai VPC1.

And if you would like to build it into your desk and are only interested in keys, then Doepfer LMK2.

Another keyboard controller that is worth taking a look at is NI Komplete Kontrol S88 - it shows up in MANY YouTube videos of professional composers and alike nowadays.

Last but not least interesting is VAXMIDI - a sequel to a highly regarded VAX77 for third of its price. Most likely a very good 48/72/96-key controller that is a lot like Doepfer but with very interesting keybed tech.


----------



## Iskra (Apr 11, 2017)

Nice heads up to Infinite Response back into business. Haven't heard of vaxmidi until now.
Thanks!


----------



## Puzzlefactory (Apr 11, 2017)

I use a the NI S88 and really like it. Particularly as a lot of developers are making their libraries with NKS support.

It's a slight shame that it doesn't have faders but encoders seem to work ok for dynamics automation (on the patches that don't automatically route it to the mod wheel).


----------



## ZenFaced (Apr 11, 2017)

If you want high resolution velocity and ability to trigger fast repetitive notes make sure you get a keyboard with triple sensor technology


----------



## Daniele Nasuti (Apr 16, 2019)

gsilbers said:


> i ended up getting the acorn masterkey61 because it was small in size and it had 4 controller plus volume and wheels.
> i wanted to keep it simple and i like being close to the pc screen. i used to have a virus ti big keyboard and it was too big. then an maudio49 but needed an octave more. so slowly i kept evolving to what i liked most.



how is it the acorn 61? I'm undecided between that and nektar gx61. 
How the keys feel? Did you have any problem with that keyboard??


----------



## gsilbers (Apr 16, 2019)

Daniele Nasuti said:


> how is it the acorn 61? I'm undecided between that and nektar gx61.
> How the keys feel? Did you have any problem with that keyboard??



i havent seen that nectar before. seems cool. the acorn has the more common synth type keys and the nektar seems to have the full keys so that might be different and i couldnt tell. 
i like the low profile and 4 assianable knobs. 
the acorn is very much like the m-audio keyboards. i have the keystation 49 and its almost the same. if that helps. 
as for issues, sometimes the acorn spits out midi cc that i dontknow where its comming from. i just turn it off and on. im sure its some random settings im not finding. or it can be a small issue. 
IF i found a midi keyboard with low profile that has aftertouch i might jump to that but for a simple midi controller the acorn fits the bill. but as any cheapo midi controller, (maudio etc), there is always the possibility of gettings a dud that breaks down withtin a year or getting a good one that lasts for 5+ years.


----------



## JohnG (Apr 16, 2019)

muk said:


> It is widely used, but I can't see much compelling reason for that. Doepfer uses Fatar keybeds, and the exact same keybeds can be found in much less expensive keyboards. So with Doepfer you are paying hefty premiums for a sturdy case.



Well, a lot of keyboard manufacturers use Fatar. For me, the best thing about the Doepfer is its simplicity and reliability. Many of the keyboards I tried were shockingly flimsy and some have a reputation for sending "ghost" cc information from sliders or wheels, a defect that makes them practically useless.

I've had a number of good years out of my Doepfer and no complaints. That said, a lot of new keyboards (NI among them) have been released since I bought it and I would certainly check those out. 

@chimuelo has a lot of good practical advice on keyboards and he plays live in Las Vegas, an unforgiving gig if there ever were one.


----------



## fixxer49 (Apr 16, 2019)

JohnG said:


> some have a reputation for sending "ghost" cc information


can you name some of these? i'm about to replace my 88 controller - for exactly the reason above - and don't want another experience like that... (if you are not comfortable posting publicly, please PM) thnx


----------



## Daniele Nasuti (Apr 16, 2019)

gsilbers said:


> i havent seen that nectar before. seems cool. the acorn has the more common synth type keys and the nektar seems to have the full keys so that might be different and i couldnt tell.
> i like the low profile and 4 assianable knobs.
> the acorn is very much like the m-audio keyboards. i have the keystation 49 and its almost the same. if that helps.
> as for issues, sometimes the acorn spits out midi cc that i dontknow where its comming from. i just turn it off and on. im sure its some random settings im not finding. or it can be a small issue.
> IF i found a midi keyboard with low profile that has aftertouch i might jump to that but for a simple midi controller the acorn fits the bill. but as any cheapo midi controller, (maudio etc), there is always the possibility of gettings a dud that breaks down withtin a year or getting a good one that lasts for 5+ years.



no, I found on internet that also nektar gx has normal keys (synth action)

I wanted one little for having on my desk at disposal immediately if I need or I have a sudden idea and being able to immediately record, without set up the audio interface etc...
I already have an 88 masterkey but I needed something more pratical with 61 keys.

however with m audio I had several problems so I don't want another of that brand.
I only need something little like acorn or nektar but I don't know which is better also in terms of durability.



fixxer49 said:


> can you name some of these? i'm about to replace my 88 controller - for exactly the reason above - and don't want another experience like that... (if you are not comfortable posting publicly, please PM) thnx



sorry, what 88 controller do you have to replace?


----------



## gsilbers (Apr 16, 2019)

Daniele Nasuti said:


> no, I found on internet that also nektar gx has normal keys (synth action)
> 
> I wanted one little for having on my desk at disposal immediately if I need or I have a sudden idea and being able to immediately record, without set up the audio interface etc...
> I already have an 88 masterkey but I needed something more pratical with 61 keys.
> ...



if i didnt know any better i would think the acorn and maudio where made in the same factory/design/firm. its almost exactly like grabbing the keystation and adding the fader and 4 knobs. 
but the rest could be exactly the same. key feels, mod wheel feel and back side. 
even the programming is about the same. i guessing its the factory next door to m-audios in china that saw the model, said, adding 4 knobs will sell better and went with it. oh the wonders of china this decade. anyways.. hope it helps.


----------



## fixxer49 (Apr 16, 2019)

Daniele Nasuti said:


> sorry, what 88 controller do you have to replace?


alesis q88


----------



## Alex Fraser (Apr 16, 2019)

I have the "bargain basement" combo of Keystation 88 under the desk (the semi-weighted version) and Korg Nano Kontrol. The Keystation isn't great as a performance instrument, but for the actual reality of day-to-day writing, it's fine. Goes under the desk, thin enough for favourable ergonomics.

And when it wears out and breaks (and it will) - swap it over for the spare.


----------



## JohnG (Apr 16, 2019)

fixxer49 said:


> can you name some of these? i'm about to replace my 88 controller - for exactly the reason above - and don't want another experience like that... (if you are not comfortable posting publicly, please PM) thnx



I can't quite remember actually. I tested a number of them at a reasonably well-stocked Guitar Center and some I read about online. I was amazed at how cheap some of the wheels and toggles and joysticks felt. Like crumby game controllers.


----------



## Daniele Nasuti (Apr 16, 2019)

gsilbers said:


> hope it helps.


of course!! At least now I know that keys are normal feeling. 
I'm only a bit worried about that midi problem, but if isn't nothing too much problematic(like if it changed some parameter or notes on the actual recording or on vst) and you can solve simply turn off an on, then it's ok. (I mean if it's not a thing that happens too much often...)

However I know that sometimes brands change only something but the instrument it's exactly the same. For ex. there is an electric drum that the only different thing is the name on it (Millenium md 90; Alesis compact kit 7; PylePro Portable Drums, gear4music DD70, are all the same instrument!!!) ahahah



fixxer49 said:


> alesis q88


so did you hav problem


Alex Fraser said:


> Keystation 88


M-audio? I had a masterkey but after something like 2 years the B central key didn't play anymore so the whole keyboard was unusable. 

I've also had a pair of little monitors of m-audio but after 2 year didn't work anymore.
So if I can give some advice: M-audio never again.


----------



## Alex Fraser (Apr 16, 2019)

Daniele Nasuti said:


> o
> M-audio? I had a masterkey but after something like 2 years some leds didn't work anymore and also a B central key didn't play. So I re-sent to them, they fixed it and after a while the same problems again!!
> I've also had a pair of little monitors of m-audio but after 2 year didn't work anymore.
> So if I can give some advice: M-audio never again.


Oh yeah - I don't expect much from the Keystation and it has a shelf life. All I require is 88 keys, pitch and mod wheels. They're cheap enough that when it fails, a quick order from Amazon and you're back in business. I even had a spare for a while, but I'm now using it. 

I appreciate I'm some what of an outlier on this policy. I've looked at the hammer action stuff, but I like the ergonomic gains from using the Keystation. It's shallow and thin under the desk, so my chair/desk height can be optimised. I've played piano all my life and always like a good hammer action. However, my daily music work simply doesn't require having it.

I'm getting twitchy though - there's no sign of an 88 note MK3 keystation despite the introduction of 61, 49 keys. Hopefully it's not a model on the way out.


----------



## jaketanner (Apr 16, 2019)

Alex Fraser said:


> Oh yeah - I don't expect much from the Keystation and it has a shelf life. All I require is 88 keys, pitch and mod wheels. They're cheap enough that when it fails, a quick order from Amazon and you're back in business. I even had a spare for a while, but I'm now using it.
> 
> I appreciate I'm some what of an outlier on this policy. I've looked at the hammer action stuff, but I like the ergonomic gains from using the Keystation. It's shallow and thin under the desk, so my chair/desk height can be optimised. I've played piano all my life and always like a good hammer action. However, my daily music work simply doesn't require having it.
> 
> I'm getting twitchy though - there's no sign of an 88 note MK3 keystation despite the introduction of 61, 49 keys. Hopefully it's not a model on the way out.



M-Audio Hammer 88 is unbeatable for the price and well beyond it's price. I've had it a while, and the response is fantastic. Mod and pitch wheel too. 2 pedals, and a very good weighted feel.


----------



## fixxer49 (Apr 16, 2019)

JohnG said:


> I can't quite remember actually. I tested a number of them at a reasonably well-stocked Guitar Center and some I read about online. I was amazed at how cheap some of the wheels and toggles and joysticks felt. Like crumby game controllers.


oh yeah. indeed. ironically, the main reason i got the q88 was because the QS8.1 (also by Alesis) was one of the best and sturdiest keyboards i've ever owned.


----------



## Daniele Nasuti (Apr 17, 2019)

Alex Fraser said:


> Oh yeah - I don't expect much from the Keystation and it has a shelf life. All I require is 88 keys, pitch and mod wheels. They're cheap enough that when it fails, a quick order from Amazon and you're back in business. I even had a spare for a while, but I'm now using it.



I can't agree with this.. the master keyboard of m-audio I had was more than 700$ price and after 2 years it was unusable. Same thing for monitors(100$): after 2 years didn't work anymore. So this means that m-audio uses nasty materials for all their products.

Thanks to m-audio 800$ throw in the toilet.


----------



## Alex Fraser (Apr 17, 2019)

Daniele Nasuti said:


> I can't agree with this.. the master keyboard of m-audio I had was more than 700$ price and after 2 years it was unusable. Same thing for monitors(100$): after 2 years didn't work anymore. So this means that m-audio uses nasty materials for all their products.
> 
> Thanks to m-audio 800$ throw in the toilet.


We must be talking about different products - the standard keystation 88 is around £140.


----------



## Daniele Nasuti (Apr 17, 2019)

gsilbers said:


> as for issues, sometimes the acorn spits out midi cc that i dontknow where its comming from.


have you tried to do hard reset (if exist on those keyboards) ?



gsilbers said:


> there is always the possibility of gettings a dud that breaks down withtin a year or getting a good one that lasts for 5+ years.



How long have you had acorn?


----------



## Daniele Nasuti (Apr 17, 2019)

Alex Fraser said:


> We must be talking about different products - the standard keystation 88 is around £140.


I had m-audio prokeys 88, one of the worst purchase I did (more than 700$)


----------

