# The sound of the female composer....



## SvK (Jul 11, 2009)

The sound of the female composer.....

Women have been ever present in rock, pop, jazz....
But much less so in film scoring ....I am aware of Anne Dudley's work with Zimmer and Rachel Portman, whose work on 2004 Manchurian Candidate was right up my alley. I loved it....

But what is the sound of a woman scoring a battle? What is the sound of a woman scoring betrayal? Friendship and love?

I find this fascinating.

Thoughts?

SvK


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## Niah (Jul 11, 2009)

why would it be any different?

I don't think that gender takes any play here.


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## choc0thrax (Jul 11, 2009)

Niah @ Sat Jul 11 said:


> why would it be any different?
> 
> I don't think that gender takes any play here.



+1

Weird thread but here's a woman who's scored some action: http://www.janecornish.com/


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## lux (Jul 11, 2009)

number of composer places is very limited

when places are limited our society shows probably what is its real approach to sex equity. 

i think It doesnt differ from many other fields where places are limited.


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## SvK (Jul 11, 2009)

Niah,

I'm not at all sure about that....I'm willing to wager that the demographics for sales of a Metallica album skew heavily towards male, and that the sales of Sarah Mclaughlin more towards female......

So based on that, why wouldn't compositional instincts differ in terms of gender?

SvK


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## SvK (Jul 11, 2009)

I grew up with three sisters......rest assured their CD collections were very different from mine and my buddies....

SvK


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## choc0thrax (Jul 11, 2009)

Is this a thread about female composers or what bands girls like? =o


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## SvK (Jul 11, 2009)

Ok....

We all became musicians, because we heard music and enjoyed it....so it does weigh-in.

Let me approach it differently. When I listen to any Gabriel Yared score, I can hear middle-eatstern sensibilities, and a certain grandness from that part of the world. Just as when I listen to Hermann, I hear a certain Jewish melancholy....

And that is BEAUTIFUL....

Point being that their respective upbringings and lives influence their musical choices as composers....My question is wouldn't the female experience influence musical choices in a similar manner?

SvK


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## Niah (Jul 11, 2009)

choc0thrax @ Sat Jul 11 said:


> Is this a thread about female composers or what bands girls like? =o



+1

what are you talking about now SvK? metallica and sarah? these are bands/artist with lyrics..

but still in here women love metal and metallica, although when I was growing up then didn't, because girls were not suppose to listen to that. but now since metallica is widely accepted even from parents everyboy who is anyboy goes to their concerts

but lets back on topic, gender is a social construct. we learn from a very early age about what is a male and a female, not only that, how we must talk, dress, behave etc according to our gender.

now here's the thing we are not zombies and sheep, we are individuals. of course men and women are different in general terms but to go to the extent to say that women score to film differently than man is just stereotypical.

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## Guy Bacos (Jul 11, 2009)

I'm wondering why there are so few females in these music forums. The ratio is worrisome.


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## SvK (Jul 11, 2009)

Guys...this thread is going in the wrong direction.....

This is not about the work that female composer get / don't get.....IT'S NOT a political thread......

I was actually looking to hear from some of our female members to discuss....How / if gender translates into artisitc choices as applied to scoring.....

I do feel that men are different from women...THAT IS GREAT. (everyone catch that?)

It's what makes this world interesting.....

SvK


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## José Herring (Jul 11, 2009)

It's closed ended question and should be opened up. There is no difference in sound between men and women composers. 

Check out the work of Shirley walker's Batman stuff or Final Destination or Turbulance and compare it to Jerry Goldsmith. check out Rachel Portman and compare her to Thomas Newman. Not much of a difference in approach though every composer does have his or her own style.

Jose


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## SvK (Jul 11, 2009)

But maybe Thomas Newman is more in touch with his feminine side 

Ahhh...you're probably right...

SvK


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## poseur (Jul 11, 2009)

i don't believe there is a "female composer's 'sound'", at all.

i'm not aware of so many of the female film-composers, myself;
personally, i suspect this is due to cultural undercurrents of male dominance
in the production-side of films.....

i know jane cornish, whom i admire,
and have worked alongside shirley walker while she was "orchestrating"
some great battle/action sequences for a male colleague.

rachel portman remains one of my favorite film-composers.

my friend, sylvie courvoisier, is a great composer, imo,
but has nothing whatsoever to do with film.
my friend, sussan deyhim, could score a film,
but has not..... though, she's certainly able to do so.
my friend, meshell ndegeocello, has scored a coupla films,
but didn't appear to want to continue with it,
though she's more than capable.

but, i suppose the same is true of many of my male musician/composer
friends who choose not to be involved with music for pictures, so.....
i dunno.

etc etc etc

just for the hell of it, svk:
would you like to do a "blind test", vis á vis
guessing wherefrom a composer comes, ie: gender, genetics, cultural location?

presuming that you don't know my name nor my music,
i'd be willing to submit 3 "representative" pieces;
you could listen to them, and guess my gender, my genetic & cultural backdrop,
etc.

¿interested?
could be fun, eh?

d


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## Niah (Jul 11, 2009)

wow Poseur you know sussan deyhim?? awesome :D


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## Dave Connor (Jul 11, 2009)

SvK @ Sat Jul 11 said:


> But maybe Thomas Newman is more in touch with his feminine side
> 
> Ahhh...you're probably right...
> 
> SvK



It is arguable that Thomas and David Newman's sister Maria is the most talented composer of the the three. I agree with that actually (she's a classical composer.) 

It would seem that music often must possess both masculine and feminine aspects in order to have contrast and range of expression. So a good composer of either gender probably possesses traits of both father and mother.


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## SvK (Jul 11, 2009)

David,

Nice!

SvK


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## SvK (Jul 11, 2009)

Poseur...I'll take the pepsi challenge!

SvK


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## SvK (Jul 11, 2009)

Poseaur...link please 

SvK


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## Niah (Jul 11, 2009)

this feminine side thing is just another stereotypical view on the characterics of both genders

why can't a man be in touch with his sensitiviy or simply his humanity without being told these things?

men and women are different yes, but I hope you understand why, it's not just biology you see? 
and this must be taken with a grain of salt otherwise it just leads to sexism and descrimination, or even positive descrimination which isn't good as well
essentially people are different independently of the gender
Look up about social constructs and history and maybe you will understand why there are not women around these forums

composing for film is a job, and what you are essentially implying is taht women do a different job than men, because they are women

dangerous road IMO, 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnPSsrI6sQA


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## SvK (Jul 11, 2009)

Niah.....

No, I'm implying that men do a different job from women because they are men..........

SvK


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## Niah (Jul 11, 2009)

SvK @ Sat Jul 11 said:


> Niah.....
> 
> No, I'm implying that men do a different job from women because they are men..........
> 
> SvK



that's just as worse


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## SvK (Jul 11, 2009)

Niah......

I was pulling your chain.

SvK


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## Niah (Jul 11, 2009)

cool 8)


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## SvK (Jul 11, 2009)

I think David Connor hit the nail on the head.....

SvK


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## john rodriguez (Jul 11, 2009)

Interesting topic...I've always wondered this since being at Berklee, which had a pretty big gender disparity to begin with, but in the composition classes which weren't required for non-composition majors it may have been like 20-1. I can remember a lot of classes that were all male. Even when looking strictly at hobbyists or enthusiasts the spread is still pretty lopsided. The ratio seems to only get wider when you survey the professional arena of music for media.

Off of the top of my head I can't think of any art form which has historically been so gender specific. I'm certainly no expert but there seems to be no equal shortage of female painters, writers, poets, photographers, etc. throughout history and across so many cultures, yet composition seems to have always been something of a boys club, even with there being such a wealth of accomplished female musical performers.

If it weren't so lopsided, maybe we could get a female composer to chime in, I'd be really interested to hear what they have to say about it.


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## stevenson-again (Jul 11, 2009)

> gender is a social construct



this is wrong and been proven to be wrong. gender is not a social construct although environment (nurture) does contribute to the shaping of fashions and habits.

the question steve asks is interesting. 20 years ago it might have been dodgy because dogmatic views about what male and female roles in society were being overturned and challenged.

the male and female brain is hardwired differently. this occurs in the womb and cannot be altered by all the politically correct thinking in the world. that said, there is no reason for excluding someone from the opportunity to try whatever they want simply because of their gender - or - race- sexual orientation - or taste in chocolate bars. but its a perfectly valid question to ask what would someone a certain skill set and tendencies make of the approach to the same creative problem such as a battle cue.

i listen to and have listened to a lot of female composers and actually i do feel like i could make a generalization that would be worth exploring just of curiosity. i have noticed in general a preference for higher pitched material, not as much bass, or bass more lightly used. i have wondered if it had anything to do with the fact women in general are more sensitive to higher frequencies.

also - and at least in the classical world where i have heard more women composers than in the film world, it strikes me that there is a tendency to really delicate nuances of tonal colouring. there isn't much bombast that i can recall hearing but lots of colour, or colour carefully nuanced. i wondered about that too until i read that women have a much higher proportion of colour receiving cells in the retina than do men. i suspect the relationship between being able to distinguish between finer degrees of colour in terms of light has made its way into being more sensitive to colour in terms of sound.

it is simply a nonsense to dismiss the differences between sexes as a simple social construct. it ignores the physiological relationship with the psychological. men and women are made differently enough for that to affect or perceptions and ultimately our creative choices. there is plenty of crossover of course, but i say vive la difference.


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## Ed (Jul 11, 2009)

choc0thrax @ Sat Jul 11 said:


> Niah @ Sat Jul 11 said:
> 
> 
> > why would it be any different?
> ...



Cool music!! :D :Love the Island of Lost Souls track. She and TJ should have babies.


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## Ed (Jul 11, 2009)

choc0thrax @ Sat Jul 11 said:


> Is this a thread about female composers or what bands girls like? =o



I think people just want to talk about girls. o


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## stevenson-again (Jul 11, 2009)

> Off of the top of my head I can't think of any art form which has historically been so gender specific. I'm certainly no expert but there seems to be no equal shortage of female painters, writers, poets, photographers, etc. throughout history and across so many cultures, yet composition seems to have always been something of a boys club, even with there being such a wealth of accomplished female musical performers.



actually the other professions that are really lop-sided is engineering and airline pilots. and the body of thought as to why that is has to do with 3-dimensional thinking. it's about the only area mentally that men out-perform women. on top of that, that mental ability is strongly linked to testosterone. if you increase the amount of testosterone in a person, male or female, that particular mental function improves. there's tons of evidence on this.

while i can understand it for flying and engineering, i am not as sure why it should be so important for composition. it might be that while we see composition in purely creative terms, it actually relies far more on the type of strategic thinking that come to men more easily - for whatever reason. i know plenty of female composers in our business and they have the same opportunities to become successful at it. it just doesn't FEEL like a professional that is dick-lead. i have asked them about why they are in such a minority and they are just as stumped as anyone else. it's not like they feel it's a boys club.

i think the reason probably something intrinsic to the gender difference - we just don;t know for sure what it is.


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## poseur (Jul 11, 2009)

SvK @ Sat Jul 11 said:


> Poseur...I'll take the pepsi challenge!
> 
> SvK


cool!
in a just a few hrs, ok?

this presumes you nothing about me, yes?
promise?
no cheating!

d


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## SvK (Jul 11, 2009)

other than that you are @ "some airport", I know nothing about you....

....promise

SvK


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## Niah (Jul 11, 2009)

stevenson-again @ Sat Jul 11 said:


> > gender is a social construct
> 
> 
> 
> ...



no it is not wrong as you have said it that it does contribute to it.  

I didn't meant to say that gender is JUST a social construct. Obviously gender is determined by biology but no only that, social aspects as well as psychological aspects (self-identity of gender,etc) are equally influential.

If biology was the sole determinant for gender there would be no cases of hermaphroditism or transgenders


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## SvK (Jul 11, 2009)

stevenson-again @ Sat Jul 11 said:


> > gender is a social construct
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Stevenson,

....fascinating!
This is exactly where I wanted this thread to go.......That is really interesting.

SvK


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## Niah (Jul 11, 2009)

stevenson-again @ Sat Jul 11 said:


> > i think the reason probably something intrinsic to the gender difference - we just don;t know for sure what it is.



I think that still doesn't explain it. 

Yes it is true what you have said about engineering and airline pilots, and antrophologists I think believe it has somehow to do with the fact that it was the men who had to go out and hunt and bring back food, so they had to know their way around.

I think the social roles that men and women play in this society are highly influential on how both genders choose careers and their future occupations. Also the way boys and girls are raised.
Just look at the difference of what toys parents give to boys and girls.

I also don't think that you are not going to get much insight on this from other female composers who are estabelished but rather from females in general. Im pretty sure that generally women think that composing music is for men and that they feel intimidated by it. I'm pretty sure that Back Obama and Michael Jackson have inspired millions of people but had an even deeper impact on the afro-american community. And if there was a women out there as big as Hans Zimmer or even bigger Im pretty sure you would have girls telling their parents "daddy I want to be a composer!!".

I'm also positive that Hillary Clinton had a profound impact on all women in america.


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## stevenson-again (Jul 11, 2009)

there has been a lot experimentation done in regards to social stereotyping and the fact is it has very little impact on how you turn out. there is a rare condition where children are born physiologically looking like girls but when they hit puberty, out pops a willy. what is interesting in these cases is that the children were raised as girls, treated as girls, thought they were girls, and yet not interested at all in traditional 'girlie' things but in the traditional 'boy' things, and despite that that was all they had to play with, they grew up to be men with no residual effect from their upbringing at all. it flies in the face of the concept of social conditioning - which to be fair has been long disregarded as the determining factor on lasting behaviour. it's the nature vs nurture argument - and while both are important, nature is perhaps more so.

don't forget too, there have been and still are very successful female composers. from clara schumann to rachel portman, their music is respected, and there is no force acting to suppress women ever from being composers. think about it, it's not physically demanding and therefore not 'unladylike', it is solitary so there is no real 'mens club' atmosphere to it. it's not a butch job exactly now is it? maybe it is simply women are not as drawn to it as men for no other reason that it is a form of creativity that is somewhat more abstract and therefore less appealing to women.

i don't think you would hear a boy or a girl listen to hans zimmer and say 'daddy (or mummy - let's not be sexist) i want to be a composer!' people are drawn to composing in some way, like the inexorable pull of gravity - not out of hero-worship (which ironically IS how i came to be a composer starting at the age of 8).

this is not to suggest women are incapable of being, deficient in some attribute - it just means they might be less drawn to it for some reason owing to gender specific propensities. if they find themselves writing music and it satisfies them, then they make their contribution based on their talent, and what steve is asking us; if who we are and how we think shape the way we create and write music, what, if any are the differences we might find in a female approach to a creative problem compared to a male one.


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## choc0thrax (Jul 11, 2009)

stevenson-again @ Sat Jul 11 said:


> (which ironically IS how i came to be a composer starting at the age of 8)



Ah, the age of smiley face sunglasses, how I miss them.


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## lux (Jul 11, 2009)

hahahaha :D


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## stevenson-again (Jul 11, 2009)

yeah weird that - i tried to type 'eight' as number and i got sunglasses... so if i type in 69 what sort of emoticon would i get.....?


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## stevenson-again (Jul 11, 2009)

gee. what a let down.


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## SvK (Jul 11, 2009)

Rohan....

nice too read you again!

SvK


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## stevenson-again (Jul 11, 2009)

thanks steve - it's a subject that deeply interests me also.

another argument against the nurturists is this:

the corpus collosum in the female brain is 30% larger than in the male brain. the corpus collosum is the bit of the brain the connects to the 2 hemispheres. the effect of that is that there is more cross talk between the hemispheres and it can manifest in a number of ways. i don't know if any of you have kids, but i have 2 really bright girls. but it took them ages to tell their left hand from their right hand and for a long time they both wrote their letters the wrong way round. this is a manifestation of greater interconnectedness between the hemispheres.

however, that also means that centres controlling certain functions, especially speech, are spread between the hemispheres in the female brain. the result is, in the case of a stroke, women are much more likely to recover - often fully, as the damaged part of the brain can be supported by other parts. there is no social conditioning that will get around the fact that if the wrong part of the brain is affected by a stroke in a bloke, he could lose the power of speech altogether - forever. or a long time. which ever comes first.


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## careyford (Jul 11, 2009)

Any women on vi-control? It would be interesting to hear from a woman on this topic.


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## Lunatique (Jul 11, 2009)

From my own listening experiences, I've also found that the differences between gender sensibilities is the most obvious in styles like pop, rock, country..etc, and it's not just the vocals identifying the gender, but also the lyrical content, melodic, and arrangement preferences. 

When it comes to scores, it makes perfect sense that we don't hear much difference because the composers are scoring to the picture and the story, so an epic battle is epic regardless if it's a man or woman scoring it. Also, as composers for media, it's often about presenting an ideal that fits the general audience's expectations, as opposed to being totally self-centered. For example let's say a particular female composer is partial to new age music or easy listening, and she's scoring an action thriller. What are the chances she'll allow her own taste totally take over what is expected of the score by the director, producer, and the target audience? This applies to any composer, male or female, so even if one gender has a preference for a more feminine or masculine sound, they will still have to score to the picture and the expectations of the client/audience. But let's say if the film is an all-out chick flick about friendship and family relationships between women, then yeah, a female composer who knows the target audience will be majority female, will probably allow her natural feminine inclinations to take over.

BTW, I'm sure some of you know the very talented and prolific Yoko Kanno? If not, you guys really should check out her body of works.


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## david robinson (Jul 11, 2009)

rohan,
your take on the ladies is very accurate.
a fine assessment.
i'd welcome ANY input from a female composer/producer.
their slant is of supremo import.
DR9.


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## david robinson (Jul 11, 2009)

btw,
thanks for being here.
DR9.


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## Dave Connor (Jul 11, 2009)

Laura Karpman's incredible score to _Steven Spielberg Presents_: *Taken* was as cerebral and chopsy as anything I've heard from anyone in a long time (to name a great female composer working in film.)

The obvious social or cultural aspects of woman working in traditionally male dominated positions (like film directors, producers and the rest) have had a major impact on everyone. It's why it's difficult for us even now to talk about because it's not a major part of our experience. It's sort of like saying _let's talk about black presidents._ Not nearly as bad a ratio with the likes of Clara Schumann, Amy Beach and others from the classical world but this inequity is still being corrected as prejudice and backward thinking fall to the wayside.


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## stevenson-again (Jul 12, 2009)

yeah - and let's not forget imogen heap. that girl is a genius in what you would regard as highly male dominated area - computer music programming. and she does everything herself - some of her material, whether it is to your taste or not, is simply incredible from a technical point of view. 

there was elizabeth parker, who was instrumental to developing all the gear we now take for granted.

there are plenty of female singer/songwriters out there. why don't more of them get down and dirty on the other side of the mike?

i just don't buy the argument that because composing is traditionally male dominated women felt excluded. composers used to send their works to clara schumann for her approval and critical eye. nadia boulanger taught many a famous composer and was extremely highly regarded at the turn of the 20th century. maybe because composers tend to be more intelligent and therefore a little more enlightened that women have been more easily accepted into the fold - but it why then should there be so few having a go at writing?

and dave- thanks for the welcome. give mabel my best. i mean, really *give* her my best....


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## david robinson (Jul 12, 2009)

LOL, mate.
hope you are getting all the work you can handle.
if you ever visit Sydney, we'll down a coupla beers.
btw, a lot of the work i'm doing now music production-wise involves some VERY capable women.
David R.


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## stevenson-again (Jul 12, 2009)

well then, next year?

i have quite a few friends in sydney and i go back each year to perth - i will either go there or try to get them to come to me but one of the years let's make it happen.

we're off on tuesday to perth and then we'll make wee trip to coral bay and frolick with the dolphins around the ningaloo reef.


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## domzique (Jul 12, 2009)

If you want to listen to woman composing memorable musics, find Yōko Kanno and listen to her musics => orchestra / electronic / jazz / rock / etc.......
http://www.jameswong.com/ykproject/core.html

you can find a lot of website about her, she's really famous in japan (and around the world for animefans !!!!!)

She's a wonderfull composer and have a huge talent (check out COWBOY BEBOP complete soundtrack its really great !!!! => 4 CDs).


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## Lunatique (Jul 12, 2009)

domzique @ Sun Jul 12 said:


> If you want to listen to woman composing memorable musics, find Yōko Kanno and listen to her musics => orchestra / electronic / jazz / rock / etc.......
> http://www.jameswong.com/ykproject/core.html
> 
> you can find a lot of website about her, she's really famous in japan (and around the world for animefans !!!!!)
> ...



Every single one of her scores are amazing--Macross Plus, Wolf's Rain, Cowboy Bebop, Escaflowne, Ghost In the Shell: Standalone Complex...etc.


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## midphase (Jul 13, 2009)

"I was actually looking to hear from some of our female members to discuss."

¿We have those here?


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## midphase (Jul 13, 2009)

I want to say that I actually agree with SvK. This is not a sexist discussion, but the truth is that females have (in general) different approaches to things than males...so why wouldn't that affect the types of compositional devices that they gravitate towards?

This is neither a good or bad thing, it simply is.

Regarding the weird ratio of male to female composers in the industry, I honestly am not sure why that is.


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## stevenson-again (Jul 13, 2009)

at the very least it's question worthy of being asked.


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## david robinson (Jul 13, 2009)

if you get to sydney, PM me here with a contact.
David R.


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## Jaap (Jul 13, 2009)

The women I met in the modern classical music scene in the Netherlands (students and established composers) seemed to be much more radical and less conservative then the male composers.
I haven't heard much scores from female composers for film (just a few) and to me it didn't sound different.


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## Daniel James (Jul 14, 2009)

I think a woman would score a scene with dish washing or cooking with alot more real emotion and understanding than a man ever could.

jks


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## chimuelo (Jul 14, 2009)

Chicks dig Bar Chords..

My Grandmother played a mean Ragtime Piano and wrote her own Dixieland jams.
My Mother could shoot the remaining Christmas tree lightbulbs hung up down at the Creek within a minute, after my Brothers and I spent a half hour missing them.
My X Wife is an excellent shopper
My Future X Wife is a Waittail Cocktress, because the singer types are a constant source of irratation.
I guess it could be the times.......... /\~O


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## domzique (Jul 14, 2009)

does it really matter if its a woman or man composing ?

the most interesting thing is it has to sound good....


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## Angel (Jul 14, 2009)

You are The_Juggler, right?


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## lux (Jul 14, 2009)

who?


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## Angel (Jul 14, 2009)

never mind


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## Orchus (Jul 22, 2009)

As a female composer, I don't really feel there is much difference between film-music written by men or women these days... But then, I also have to admit, when listening to music, I don't ever think about the composer, who he/she is, and definitely not what gender.. So I guess I haven't given it thought..

I believe the only reason why this discussion started is just that there are less female composers in the film-business... but I think this is for exactly the same reason as there are lesser female conductors, or (outside of the music business) managers, or truck-drivers.. It's a mens world...it's something we earned from history... Look at the classical composers of the former age.. all men... It was simply not done for a female to write music, you were to raise the kids, cook, clean..... You were regarded a total misfit or outcast if you didn't commit to the habit.. 

Though there were some exceptions.. the first one being the German nun Hildegard von Bingen in the Middle Ages.. she wrote astonishing music! She is regarded to be the most progressive composer (also counting the men in) of her time!


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## SvK (Jul 22, 2009)

Orchus,

Welcome!
So great to chat with a female composer on this forum......I don't know if you read this whole thread, but did you read the post regarding that at Berklee School Of Music, the composition classes were void of females......Like 20 males to each female. Do you think the reason for this is not a lack of interest in the endeavor of composition?

Ps: must check out von Bingen


All the best,

SvK


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## SvK (Jul 22, 2009)

Orchus,

What are you working on, studying, writing right now? 

Best,

SvK


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 22, 2009)

As to the original question, I couldn't say composition wise but I do know for a fact that taste between men and women are different among classical composers. I once did a survey myself using male and female orchestral players.


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## artsoundz (Jul 22, 2009)

Hi Orchus and welcome to V.i. As said previously it's great to have more female musicians here. 

Perhaps you could encourage some of your fellow female friends/composers and most importantly musicians to join in here.


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## nikolas (Jul 22, 2009)

I have a great admiration for female composers (Sofia Gubaidulina being one, for example) in exactly the same way that I hold great admiration for Messiaen, Stravisnky and others: I love their music! 

I really try to stay unbaised on the whole topic of "who wrote that", which started out with my grudges against "young miracle composers", where everyone goes "AWWWW! what a great work this 13 year old wrote", and I'm like "No, it's not great! In fact it's awful, because I want my money to go to the persons I like their music best (or performance, or whatever), and not because "the composer/performer are too young, too blind, too female, too whatever". 

Male and female are different and thank gawd for that! That seems to be a scientific fact! Do we write different music? Heh... we all do, don't we? Do we like "their" music? Yet again, it depends on occasion, samewise with anyone in here, out of here and all composers globaly. 

Would I personally collaborate with female composers/performers/etc? Heck yes! I've done so already and hope to keep doing it! Do they sound different? Well that's tough to say really. I do think that the sound of female performers is slightly different, maybe due to physical differences, but I seem to get along better with females anyways (no antagonism there), so it works better for me! 

____________________

On the kids matter, etc...

My wife is an architect and a good one actually, as far as I can tell. She's had 10 years of experience thus far. she's also had two kids (with my aid of course! :D:D:D:D)

She'd like to have a career, but as in every profession it's not easy at all! I'd like to support here, although atm I can't (financial issues). I have made a promise that the moment I can support the family fully, she's free to do whatever she wants within reason and with solid grounds as excuse.


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## Orchus (Jul 23, 2009)

SvK @ Thu Jul 23 said:


> What are you working on, studying, writing right now?



I study Music Technology, or actually Music Production & Performance in the Netherlands. I'm one of 3 girls between about 60 boys in my year!! 
And to be honest, I would love to invite female composer-friends to the forum, but I simply don't know any other female composers.. My friends from school are all boys.. 

But back to the question:

I think the main reason for the lack of women in the world of composition, is that it is believed to be still something for men.. The way girls are raised, treated..is still as girls, women...as a girl you are indoctrinated with what girls should like, what role in society they should play, what job you should have... Most girls automatically grow into the role that everyone expect them to play... Composing is still seen as a mans job.. Only few women break out of the habit, and develop interests that don't fit the stereotype girl, and decide to become composers 

But another reason could also be that it involves a lot of technology lately. And for some reasons (that I don't understand, because I find it fascinating myself) most women aren't interested in that...

As for the sound of the compositions of women, I do not think that there is a big distinction from the sound of mens'. Women might have a different taste sometimes, but there are differences between men also.. I do think that the way women might think about their compositions, or their way of working might be different... But it does not have to affect the actual sound of their music..


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## lux (Jul 23, 2009)

> I think the main reason for the lack of women in the world of composition, is that it is believed to be still something for men.. The way girls are raised, treated..is still as girls, women...as a girl you are indoctrinated with what girls should like, what role in society they should play, what job you should have... Most girls automatically grow into the role that everyone expect them to play... Composing is still seen as a mans job.. Only few women break out of the habit, and develop interests that don't fit the stereotype girl, and decide to become composers



exactly.


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## SvK (Jul 23, 2009)

Orchus.....

Thanx!

SvK


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 23, 2009)

lux @ Thu Jul 23 said:


> > I think the main reason for the lack of women in the world of composition, is that it is believed to be still something for men.. The way girls are raised, treated..is still as girls, women...as a girl you are indoctrinated with what girls should like, what role in society they should play, what job you should have... Most girls automatically grow into the role that everyone expect them to play... Composing is still seen as a mans job.. Only few women break out of the habit, and develop interests that don't fit the stereotype girl, and decide to become composers
> 
> 
> 
> exactly.



This will change more dramtically in the next 15 years I'm sure. The next Spielberg action picture will be scored by..... Joane Williams? :D


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## Hannes_F (Jul 23, 2009)

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## Guy Bacos (Jul 23, 2009)

The tradition was so strong showing men as composers only that women don't automatically see themselves as composers at a young age. At some point women composers will burst in the scene among the top names.


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## Orchus (Jul 23, 2009)

Guy Bacos @ Thu Jul 23 said:


> The tradition was so strong showing men as composers only that women don't automatically see themselves as composers at a young age. At some point women composers will burst in the scene among the top names.


That's kind of exactly what I was trying to say... but then a little bit shorter :roll:


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 23, 2009)

Orchus @ Thu Jul 23 said:


> Guy Bacos @ Thu Jul 23 said:
> 
> 
> > The tradition was so strong showing men as composers only that women don't automatically see themselves as composers at a young age. At some point women composers will burst in the scene among the top names.
> ...



I know, I'm just trying to hog the credit. :D


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## midphase (Jul 23, 2009)

"I mean, meet any new people and tell them you write music all you get is this sort of stare ... (ahaaaaa ... she/he must be crazy ... ) "


HA...I sooo relate from when I was living not in L.A.

Since I moved to L.A., the stupid stares have completely gone away....amazing!


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## Garlu (Jul 23, 2009)

Hummm... I should read this post and say my opinion...

I am probably, one of the few females in the forum! But... it has the positive point: you guys take care of us. 

Talk to you soon about "the sound of the female composer"... hehe. Sorry for the offtopic, just wanna say "hi, I am here" 

All the best for VI´s users!

Vanessa G.
"Garlu"


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 23, 2009)

Having spoken to Vanessa and heard her music I can tell you that she is part of the bright future of female composers and arrangers.


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## SvK (Jul 23, 2009)

Hi Vanesssa !

SvK


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## nikolas (Jul 23, 2009)

So, this is how you meet girls on the Internet, Steven?  You make a thread about "the voice of female composers" and then everyone shows up? Come on! Where's the originality in that? Where's the passion?

PS. Hi Vanessa!


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## Niah (Jul 24, 2009)

hmm, remind me not to bring my sister in here... :lol:


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## Garlu (Jul 24, 2009)

Hi everybody!!!

Thanks for your welcome to this thread! 

I am studying in Berklee College of Music and I should say the ratio has improved a little bit: 18-4 or 5. We are in the process... hehehe. And, there is not distinction between music by females or males. Everything depends on the person (his/her talent and the preparation), it isn´t based in the genre. 

But, I hear the difference between classical trained composers (before coming to Berklee) and the ones who don´t. 

The point i wanna mention is... most of the Berklee girls wanna be singers, performers,... everything related to success, money and fame. So, think about this: who many people know Jane Antonia Cornish? and how many know Beyonce?

In general, as many of you said before, film scoring and mock up world seems to be a men´s thing. I hope not anymore! hehehehe. 

I should admit: Most of my friends are males and I connect better with them than with other females. Maybe I am "strange" or "special" on a particular way: I love music. It is my passion. I like what I do and it makes me happy. I wouldn´t change my way of life for the one from a multimillonaire singer star. I love what I do! 

Thanks for all the VI-ers, sooo much information to learn! And, I think, most of you guys (males), take care of us good enough (the minority of females).

Best from Spain,

Vanessa G.
"Garlu" :D


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## midphase (Jul 24, 2009)

"how many people know Jane Antonia Cornish?"

I do unfortunately (she took a film away from me). Oh well...win some, lose some!

Now on to important stuff...what can I do to convince you to stop going to Berklee?


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## kid-surf (Jul 25, 2009)

Is it me or did most not understand the initial question put forth..?

The question wasn't: "Can women composers write as valuable music as that of men...or write at all"

For starters...It's clear that men and women have different tastes. Considering the discussion is film score; The audiences for these films are, at times, very divisive. Action films draw men, RomComs draw women, generally. Do we really assume it's coincidental and nothing more? Of course there are anomalies...

It seems obvious that the male vs. female perspective is "different" in that regard. Thus, it would imply a different approach to film score. How so? I can't say exactly, but I would put money down on the ida that a sophisticated computer program could necessarily map these emotional "value" differences. Said another way; map the commonalities unique, specifically, to men or women, but not both.

I suggested, a few months back, that men and women producers decipher and value material (screenplays) differently. In particular, my drama script lands more so with women, my action script lands more so with men. In fact, my action script landed with 95% of men and MAYBE 5% of women. There's a physiological reason for that called testosterone vs. estrogen. 

The same can be said for film score...a man cannot write whereby ignoring the testosterone pumping through his being, similarly a woman can't ignore her estrogen. It is manifest regardless of our best intentions to see ourselves as equals. We ARE equals yet, like the yin/yang we are not the same and never will be. Which is a positive!

...and which has nothing to do with better or worse, merely "different". Not necessarily a marked, obvious difference, perhaps a subconscious difference which doesn't always readily reveal itself upon a first glance.

Random, crude example: Perhaps a director is making a violent action film in which the score must play the protagonist's internal (emotional) battles as opposed to the external plot driven battles (i.e. explosions, killing, car chase, etc). Perhaps a women might more easily wrap her head around that sort of requirement. Likewise, perhaps a man might more easily wrap his head around testosterone driven violence. After all, I've never heard "heavier" rock music than that produced by a man. There absolutely is a reason for that, it IS the fact that women aren't interested in writing that. More to the point, they aren't COMPELLED to write that style of music. 

This stuff just "is"...Nothing to do with sexists. It's science. The twist is that neither sex can put themselves in the shoes of the other to decipher just what these minute differences FEEL like. 

I'd hire a woman in a snap. But that's not the crux of the paramount question presented on page 1. The question asked us to dig deeper than social issues to explore the science of it...IMO.

More unedited ramblings...I'm dead tired, this post may not make any sense. Like always...


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## midphase (Jul 25, 2009)

I have a huge issue with graduating with a somewhat useless degree and a debt equal to a house mortgage (or more). Add to that a 5-10 year time frame before you start making any significant income and I hope you'll see my POV.

If you're paying in cash and planning to teach for a living, then please disregard me.


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 25, 2009)

midphase @ Sat Jul 25 said:


> I have a huge issue with graduating with a somewhat useless degree and a debt equal to a house mortgage (or more). Add to that a 5-10 year time frame before you start making any significant income and I hope you'll see my POV.
> 
> If you're paying in cash and planning to teach for a living, then please disregard me.



I think you have to decide when is the right time for you to stop studying, some people study for ever on loans and wind up with huge debts.


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## Garlu (Jul 26, 2009)

midphase @ Sat Jul 25 said:


> I have a huge issue with graduating with a somewhat useless degree and a debt equal to a house mortgage (or more). Add to that a 5-10 year time frame before you start making any significant income and I hope you'll see my POV.
> 
> If you're paying in cash and planning to teach for a living, then please disregard me.



Hi midphase!

I started studying classical music really young and I finished my classical studies in 2007. In Spain, we don´t have a really good School/College/University focused on new technologies or film scoring. 

I loved this area and I decided to applied to Berklee becuase of that. I am not rich, neither my parents, but I tried everything possible to keep on studying because I thought it was a unique opportunity, even if you think it´s an "useless degree".

I am very lucky to have some scholarships because of my results and my trajectory; and I am very thankful about it. So, for the moment, I don´t need any debts. 

They teach amazing things in a lot of different areas. If you have learnt all by yourself, congrats!

I am aware, right now, the business is too difficult, and it will take some time to get into it... and I know that they won´t looking into my CV to see where I studied, but, in the practical way, I love what they are teaching me. 

Maybe you should have applied there and, probably, you would have got a big scholarship. And you wouldn´t have regretted any formation there. 

Just a question, have you ever studied music? Do you find it useful in your trajectory? Some people take some years, some of them more. 

PS. If I had to pay Berklee, all by myself, I would have studied... one semester? or less... :D


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## midphase (Jul 26, 2009)

I graduated Cum Laude from Berklee.


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## Garlu (Jul 27, 2009)

midphase @ Mon Jul 27 said:


> I graduated Cum Laude from Berklee.



Good for you! Congrats. 

And, do you think you would find the same opportunities withouth Berklee?


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## Dave Connor (Jul 27, 2009)

A musical education is vital for a composer who wishes to delve into the depths of the compositional process. History shows that without question. Even if someone breaks radically with tradition they learn that tradition first. Ives's early work sounds like Brahms for example.

I don't know the merits of Berklee's music program but if you can get a solid foundation there then it's money well spent as long as it's not overpriced in some usury way.


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## midphase (Jul 27, 2009)

"And, do you think you would find the same opportunities withouth Berklee?"

Yes, absolutely, 100%, hellz yeah, damn right!

Now, let's be careful here, I'm not advocating the lack of a solid music education. All that I'm saying is that in this day and age, there are better, more efficient, and above all, more cost effective methods for acquiring said education.

Also, keep in mind that I went there when you were probably in pre-school (maybe you weren't even born yet...my god I feel old!!!), there was no internet, no discussion boards like these, no software DAW and amazing plugins. If you wanted to learn the technical side of scoring a film, you had to go to a school that had the equipment. At the time, there were only 3 in the USA which had a film scoring program (Berklee, USC and Miami), and two of those were only offering graduate programs. Also, when I went to Berklee, a 4-year program with dorm and food cost about $40k....a lot of money no doubt, but today that wouldn't even pay for 1 year!!!

Sounds like you're almost done, so it doesn't make any sense for you to change your direction. It also sounds like you've got a scholarship (partial? full?) so that satisfies my other concern that you don't find yourself in a mountain of debt.

Any "kid" who asks me about Berklee, I usually try to let them know that nowadays there are much better options. I am a huge advocate of private tutoring when it comes to music composition and theory. When it comes to the technical aspects of scoring, software etc....everything you could ever want to learn is available to you online for free or in the form of books such as the excellent Jay Asher Logic Pro manuals!


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