# My first 'proper' track [updated track]



## rudi (Oct 17, 2019)

My first 'proper' track. Until last December I used Notion, a notation programme. I posted a couple of very lackluster examples which were hampered by:

- my poor writing skills 
- the built-in sounds.
- the lack of CC lanes to add expression

Aided by this forum I started buying some 'proper' sound libraries, listening to some of the amazing compositions, watching tutorials, getting a basic MIDI keyboard with sliders, switching to realtime writing in REAPER... and a substantially reduced bank balance  .

Here is the result - any feedback and pointers would be appreciated:





_I have revised the piece based on some of the suggestions I received... (there is a list of the changes on the next page of this thread) _




The piece is inspired by the great movie soundtracks I love. I have tried to recreate that expansive (and expensive) sound.
Formwise it starts with a simple introduction, followed by the main theme, then a change of mood before returning to the main theme, and the ending. It is mostly CineSymphony Lite, with a bit of Albion One, some EW Spaces II, and a bit of Fabfilter Pro-Q 3. The French Horns are a mixture of CineSymphony Lite and Adventure Brass. 

Thank you in advance,

Rudi


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## Rowy (Oct 17, 2019)

What do you mean by _poor writing skills_, Rudy? Don't you know how to notate, or is it a lack of knowledge? Sorry, it's my English. I'm not really good at it.

I noticed you prefer well-known cadences. Your piece sounds coherent, if you know what I mean, and that is an achievement. It's not just a bag full of ideas. But if you stick to a few cadences, you're bound to stay in the same atmosphere.

Your composition gives me the feeling that you're being cautious. You add some tension by the use of dissonances, but more tension in the harmony too could improve your writing. Harmony is like a road trip. It is going somewhere. Then again, sometimes you only need a walk in the park.

And I would like to see a part of the score, the best part preferably. After all film music is related to classical music (related, not the same). A score would make it easier to discuss the music, if that is what you want.


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## synkrotron (Oct 17, 2019)

By the sounds of it, Rudi, you are making good progress  

I can't offer any real advice or give critique because I am not an expert in this field. But the little snippet provided sounded good to my ears 



cheers

andy


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## rudi (Oct 17, 2019)

Rowy said:


> What do you mean by _poor writing skills_, Rudy? Don't you know how to notate, or is it a lack of knowledge? Sorry, it's my English. I'm not really good at it.
> 
> I noticed you prefer well-known cadences. Your piece sounds coherent, if you know what I mean, and that is an achievement. It's not just a bag full of ideas. But if you stick to a few cadences, you're bound to stay in the same atmosphere.
> 
> ...



@Rowy thank you for your feedback - you are spot on with your remarks.

When referring to my poor writing skills, I was mainly referring to writing good orchestration - i.e solid melody, a cohesive flow, good supporting harmonies and part writing. My knowledge of advanced harmony is very basic as you've noticed... I can often 'hear' more complex chordal arrangements in my head but I am often unable to transfer them into orchestration. 

You are right about my selection of cadences being cautious... I am finding my feet and thought I would start with simpler, open harmonisations and add a little bit of dissonance. I am still in the early stages of trying to integrate all the bits of knowledge I have accumulated so far.

The piece was played live into my DAW (with a tiny bit of timing corrections in the lower strings). I don't have an actual score, but I will put a sketch together with the main theme. I'll prepare it this evening and post it when it is ready! 

Thank you for taking the time to listen and post your remarks!


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## rudi (Oct 17, 2019)

synkrotron said:


> By the sounds of it, Rudi, you are making good progress
> 
> I can't offer any real advice or give critique because I am not an expert in this field. But the little snippet provided sounded good to my ears
> 
> ...


@synkrotron 
Thank you for your encouraging words Andy, it's really appreciated! 
As per Rowy's comments I am still finding my feet and hopefully will continue to improve!

By the way I really liked the piece called "Sunlight" on your Soundcloud account.
Thank you!


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## dzilizzi (Oct 17, 2019)

With the caveat that I have no idea what I am talking about most of the time, I thought it sounded really good. And much better on my iPad. For some reason I’m getting cracking on my phone on a lot of these SoundCloud recordings. I’m glad to know that making pieces sound like they are playing on scratchy records is not the new thing, but unhappy that my phone seems to be adding this sound. 

I think I’m trying to do too much with my strings. I noticed you hold the string notes and use the other instruments to give the movement and maybe melody? I like how that works.


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## Zero&One (Oct 17, 2019)

I really liked it. For me, you captured the movie vibe that inspired you very well. I could really feel the time and passion you put into this.
I think you could easily double some of these up and really milk parts. Nice one 👍


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## synkrotron (Oct 17, 2019)

rudi said:


> Thank you for your encouraging words Andy, it's really appreciated!



You are most welcome, Rudi 

I am listening again now. I'd like to be able to create something like this in the future.



rudi said:


> By the way I really liked the piece called "Sunlight" on your Soundcloud account.




I am afraid that one isn't a piece by me.

SoundCloud works in two ways, depending on the type of account you have there.

For the non-subscribers, your latest track goes at the top of your SoundCloud home page.

But if you "repost" someone else's track, that goes above your latest track.


"Pro" subscribers, like myself, get to place what is referred to as "Spotlight" tracks at the top of our home page. We can have as many as five Spotlight tracks.

Below the Spotlight tracks follow your latest track or any reposted tracks, the same as for non-subscribers.

To see a list of an artist's tracks, with the latest at the top, you have to click on the Tracks link just below the banner at the top.


So that Sunlight track was created by @TomislavEP, a fellow member here. All credit must go to him 


cheers

andy


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## Blackster (Oct 17, 2019)

Hi Rudi,

I'm listening as I type. Actually, I like your composition. However, I'd have wished to hear more horizontal movement in the parts and not just those sustained long notes all the time.

And you can write a bit more transparently. You are crossing registers between all instrument sections. Not quite sure if that was done intentionally but the whole result would have been more transparent if you separated those instrument sections a bit, especially the horns (in their higher register) against the strings.


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## rudi (Oct 17, 2019)

dzilizzi said:


> With the caveat that I have no idea what I am talking about most of the time, I thought it sounded really good. And much better on my iPad. For some reason I’m getting cracking on my phone on a lot of these SoundCloud recordings. I’m glad to know that making pieces sound like they are playing on scratchy records is not the new thing, but unhappy that my phone seems to be adding this sound.
> 
> I think I’m trying to do too much with my strings. I noticed you hold the string notes and use the other instruments to give the movement and maybe melody? I like how that works.



@dzilizzi You and me both  Like you I am trying to learn and get better.

Thank you for your words of encouragement, and also how it sounded on your iPad. I am really glad to hear that as it is a bit overwhelming to mix and have confidence it'll sound good on different systems.

Is the crackling sound on your phone only on SoundCloud? I had a smilar problem with the jack on my phone a while ago, and cleaning it resolved the crackling.

I have the same problem with my string writing... I am always tempted to add more and more, until it starts to sound muddled and too busy. I am intending to post a short excerpt of the main theme in condensed form shortly as it makes it easier to see what is happening!

Thanks!


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## rudi (Oct 17, 2019)

James H said:


> I really liked it. For me, you captured the movie vibe that inspired you very well. I could really feel the time and passion you put into this.
> I think you could easily double some of these up and really milk parts. Nice one 👍




@James H ... or can I call you* 01001000 01101001 *
Thank you for taking the time to listen and post your comments! It is such a learning process and there are so many possible ways to arrange the orchestration, some of which is way beyond my abilities at the moment.
Thank you too for the suggestion about doubling / extending parts. I wanted to keep it short and sweet to begin with.
Thank you


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## rudi (Oct 17, 2019)

synkrotron said:


> You are most welcome, Rudi
> 
> I am listening again now. I'd like to be able to create something like this in the future.



Thank you for your generous comment. It is quite daunting trying to write something you can share with others, especially if like me you are at a starting stage and isolated... which is why it's great to have forum members share their creations and opinions 





synkrotron said:


> I am afraid that one isn't a piece by me.
> 
> SoundCloud works in two ways, depending on the type of account you have there.
> 
> ...



I didn't realise that... thanks for the clarification and letting me know about it - I'll check your channel again!!!

Cheers


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## rudi (Oct 17, 2019)

Blackster said:


> Hi Rudi,
> 
> I'm listening as I type. Actually, I like your composition. However, I'd have wished to hear more horizontal movement in the parts and not just those sustained long notes all the time.
> 
> And you can write a bit more transparently. You are crossing registers between all instrument sections. Not quite sure if that was done intentionally but the whole result would have been more transparent if you separated those instrument sections a bit, especially the horns (in their higher register) against the strings.



Hi @Blackster, thank you for your valuable feedback. I agree with you about using more horizontal movement. My knowledge of harmony and part writing is very basic... I am hoping to improve!

Thank you too for your insight on crossing registers... it is something I'd like to learn more about! I listened to my favourite composers and the striking thing about their work is that each instrument and line is in its proper place. There is definitely room for improvement on my part (pun intended)


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## rudi (Oct 17, 2019)

@Rowy et al... here is a sketch of the main theme in condensed form - I kept it very simple... it's the first time I am uploading a .png file so I hope it comes through ok!


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## jeremiahpena (Oct 17, 2019)

I had a few listens. Don't be afraid of repeating that theme more. With a new piece, listeners are trying to grasp onto ideas or themes or else become lost. On my first listen it didn't even identify as a theme. I think you can repeat the theme both times it comes up, which would make it stick more (after all, if it's what the track is _about_, show it off!).

The part at 0:38 is kind of a dead zone. You could try bringing the theme (or a B melody) back, or maybe thicken up the string harmonies. Then the bridge at 0:51 feels a bit awkward because it ends on the tonic, the same chord as the reintroduction of the theme right after. It doesn't feel like it's leading anywhere.

In terms of the mix, the low string shorts are pretty much buried by the horn/upper strings in the louder parts. They could be a lot louder. And there's a lot of static dynamics throughout (or the illusion of static dynamics. Sometimes you put in mod wheel movement, but it doesn't actually sound like anything to the listener because it's too subtle). Don't be afraid of exaggerating those dynamics. Bring out the phrases. Big sweeping movement! If it sounds like too much, you can easily tone it down after the fact.


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## dzilizzi (Oct 17, 2019)

rudi said:


> @dzilizzi You and me both  Like you I am trying to learn and get better.
> 
> Thank you for your words of encouragement, and also how it sounded on your iPad. I am really glad to hear that as it is a bit overwhelming to mix and have confidence it'll sound good on different systems.
> 
> ...


The crackling so far only occurs on SoundCloud music using the phone's speaker. I haven't noticed any crackling on YouTube music. I am wondering if it is embedded music here, because now that I think about it, I was at another site with embedded SoundCloud music and didn't notice a problem. Interesting. I'll pay more attention.


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## TomislavEP (Oct 18, 2019)

@synkrotron and rudi; I'm glad that you like my track. Thanks!


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## rudi (Oct 18, 2019)

jeremiahpena said:


> I had a few listens. Don't be afraid of repeating that theme more. With a new piece, listeners are trying to grasp onto ideas or themes or else become lost. On my first listen it didn't even identify as a theme. I think you can repeat the theme both times it comes up, which would make it stick more (after all, if it's what the track is _about_, show it off!).
> 
> The part at 0:38 is kind of a dead zone. You could try bringing the theme (or a B melody) back, or maybe thicken up the string harmonies. Then the bridge at 0:51 feels a bit awkward because it ends on the tonic, the same chord as the reintroduction of the theme right after. It doesn't feel like it's leading anywhere.
> 
> In terms of the mix, the low string shorts are pretty much buried by the horn/upper strings in the louder parts. They could be a lot louder. And there's a lot of static dynamics throughout (or the illusion of static dynamics. Sometimes you put in mod wheel movement, but it doesn't actually sound like anything to the listener because it's too subtle). Don't be afraid of exaggerating those dynamics. Bring out the phrases. Big sweeping movement! If it sounds like too much, you can easily tone it down after the fact.



@jeremiahpena thank you for listening and for your very practical and on-point suggestions. 

I've been rather timid with my arrangement, not wanting to repeat things too much, but it looks like I have erred in the opposite direction. I guess there can be something such as being _too _subtle 

Great suggestions about the B section: I need to make it more interesting. Likewise with the bridge -- after your remark I have been re-listening to it and I should have used a leading tone. I have noticed the same thing in some of my other compositions not knowing I was doing it. Thank you for pointing it out.

Great advice about the shorts balance and making the dynamics less static... I've been over-cautious with CC modulations!!! I need to revisit it!


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## rudi (Oct 18, 2019)

dzilizzi said:


> The crackling so far only occurs on SoundCloud music using the phone's speaker. I haven't noticed any crackling on YouTube music. I am wondering if it is embedded music here, because now that I think about it, I was at another site with embedded SoundCloud music and didn't notice a problem. Interesting. I'll pay more attention.



Very puzzling. I haven't noticed any problem with SounCloud so far. It sounds okay on phone speakers, headphones and monitors. 
Let us know if you get to the bottom of it!


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## rudi (Oct 18, 2019)

TomislavEP said:


> @synkrotron and rudi; I'm glad that you like my track. Thanks!


@TomislavEP you're very welcome. I enjoy your music very much


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## rudi (Oct 18, 2019)

@ka00 Thank you for your comments! Yes, my playing is little loose at times... I was trying to avoid a too tight feel, but I might make some small manual adjustments. 

Thank you too for the suggestion about 1:22. I am trying various small changes as well as repeating the theme, but I am not getting good results yet!!!


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## Rowy (Oct 19, 2019)

rudi said:


> @Rowy et al... here is a sketch of the main theme in condensed form - I kept it very simple... it's the first time I am uploading a .png file so I hope it comes through ok!



Thank you, rudy. Perhaps I may advise you to read about voice leading. That would really improve your work. _Strict_ voice leading might not be such a good idea, but I think you will benefit from a more loose approach. Also, some basic harmony might help. Nothing fancy, just the basics.

If you prefer to write music by ear, you could skip basic harmony and combine chromatism and voice leading. The harmony will get complicated, but you don't need to know all the time what is going on. The result might even be ambiguous tonality, occasionally. Wagner is your friend


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## Willowtree (Oct 19, 2019)

Very beautiful, Rudi. I enjoyed listening to this.


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## rudi (Oct 20, 2019)

@Rowy thank you for the suggestions... yes, voice leading is one of my weak points. I've been mostly an instictive player / composer - I need to extend my musical vocabulary.

I've started to look into voice leading, including using chromaticism. It will take some time to become fluent with it and even more time to internalise it. 

I've also been working in some of the other suggestions about improving my piece. I'll post a revised version soon.

Wagner is a master composer - so much to learn and absorb!


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## rudi (Oct 20, 2019)

@Willowtree thank you for your comment, it is really appreciated.


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## synkrotron (Oct 20, 2019)

rudi said:


> I've started to look into voice leading



Yes, this is something I need to have a look at too.



rudi said:


> including using chromaticism



and this


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## AndreBoulard (Oct 20, 2019)

i am not so educated into this stuff but this was really nice to be honest. its abit simple but nicely layed out. There really good potential with this piece !


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## rudi (Oct 22, 2019)

@AndreBoulard thank you for your nice comment. Yes, it is a bit simple -- there is so much I need to learn to develop my writing skills and orchestration


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## rudi (Oct 22, 2019)

I have revised the original piece and tried to tak onboard all the comments and suggestions with varying degrees of success!





@Rowy
@James H
@Blackster

I tried some voice leading but I ended-up drifting away from the directness of the original due to my lack of skill. For the time being I decided to stick with the simpler cadences until I improve my writing (but I am working on it)!

@jeremiahpena

Thank you once more for the great suggestions... I have repeated the theme both times. 
I was a little weary of making the repeat sound too similar at first but I added some subtle changes to the repetitions.

I've also revised the B section (now at 0:52) and used a lower register string theme.

There is now more of a lead into the second instance of the theme at 1:14, although it still sounds weak,

There are some more dynamic sweeps to the strings, but maybe still not enough.
Likewise I've emphasised and in some cases doubled the lower strings.

@ka00 I have revised the pre-ending part with a slight repeat and variation.


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## synkrotron (Oct 22, 2019)

rudi said:


> with varying degrees of success!



Still sounding good to me, Rudi  🎶


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## rudi (Oct 23, 2019)

Thank you @synkrotron, it's really appreciated. 
I was worried I had overegged the pudding!!!
Now I need to improve my [orchestral roll]... voice leading


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## synkrotron (Oct 24, 2019)

rudi said:


> Now I need to improve my [orchestral roll]... voice leading



Are you going to develop the current piece or create a new one?

I guess that an update of the old is easier than creating a new one and we can all hear the result of that


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## rudi (Oct 24, 2019)

synkrotron said:


> Are you going to develop the current piece or create a new one?
> 
> I guess that an update of the old is easier than creating a new one and we can all hear the result of that



No, I think I am going to work on a new piece instead. I already have a couple of ideas but I need to let them mature!!!


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## synkrotron (Oct 24, 2019)

rudi said:


> No, I think I am going to work on a new piece instead.



I will keep my eyes peeled for that


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