# Valhalla Vintage/Room vs LXP or PCM plugin



## alligatorlizard (Jun 20, 2014)

I've been using almost exclusively convolution reverb (Spaces) for the last few years, and decided it's time to get a good algorithmic verb - something that will cover all bases, that's nice and tweakable, good for effects & sound design, as well as pop/rock/synth production etc.

I instantly ruled out what would have been my immediate 1st choice, the Lexicon PCM plugin, as last time I checked it was about £700.

So I instead demo'd a bunch of budget reverbs, and decided Valhalla Vintage Verb was hands down my favourite - just slightly preferred it over VRoom due to the fact it does colour the sound in a very pleasing way. 

However I then spotted by chance an ad for the Lexicon LXP plugin bundle, which you can now buy for as cheap as £60. A bit more searching, and I found you can now buy the full PCM plugin bundle for as cheap as £175! 

So two questions...

1) is the LXP bundle a good option here? (i.e. though it's got fewer algorithms, does it sound as good as PCM and cover as many bases as VVV or VRoom?) 

2) if I decide I can extend my budget to the PCM plugin bundle, is there any reason why I shouldn't immediately get this over the Valhalla plugins?

Downloading the Lexicon demos now, but interested to hear what others think too, especially anyone who's used both.


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## José Herring (Jun 20, 2014)

PCM is great.

Valhalla Room can be made to sound great, but can also sound terrible depending on the settings. It's pretty user friendly and it takes a couple of tries to get it right, but once you do, it can sound pretty good, though I couldn't get it as good as PCM almost straight out of the box.

Valhalla Room also has a bit of a grainy sounding high end, so you need to watch out for that. I think it might be due to aliasing, but I never bothered to do extensive testing. I usually just choose the presets with highs rolled down or roll them down a bit myself. 

LXP hands down the worst thing I've tried or heard. Sounds nothing like the hardware version. It seemed to lack focus and sounded cloudy, tinny and ringy. The original LXP hardware sounded a bit cloudy too, so at least they got that right :lol: 

Just my opinion.

I haven't tried vintage yet but am intrigued.


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## devastat (Jun 20, 2014)

alligatorlizard @ Fri Jun 20 said:


> A bit more searching, and I found you can now buy the full PCM plugin bundle for as cheap as £175!



Just a heads up you can currently get the PCM bundle for £140 from plugindiscounts.com. It is a fantastic reverb, I would definitely go with PCM over LXP.


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## clarkus (Jun 20, 2014)

Consider the B2 

http://www.2caudio.com/products/b2

You can download the demo.

More complex interface, but it will do all kinds of things & sounds terrific.

250.

Also eats CPU more than the Valhalla, just so you know. Multiple instances become an issue, at least for me. But i love it.


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## milesito (Jun 20, 2014)

clarkus @ Fri Jun 20 said:


> Consider the B2
> 
> http://www.2caudio.com/products/b2
> 
> ...



+1 I have both, and like the sound of B2 slightly more...but i only run 1 instance and use Valhalla with more instances since it is lighter...I've tried to match the B2 sound with Valhalla, but I still go back to B2 for my reverb tail as Blakus had once suggested..could be my ears are now just used to it however.


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## ghostnote (Jun 21, 2014)

Never really liked the LXP. It sounds grainy and a bit too thick. The PCM on the other hand is very smooth, but IMO a bit too much of an effect than a reverb (at least the Hall algorythms). V-Room wins.


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## José Herring (Jun 21, 2014)

Michael Chrostek @ Fri Jun 20 said:


> The PCM on the other hand is very smooth, but IMO a bit too much of an effect than a reverb (at least the Hall algorythms). V-Room wins.



This is the problem with many Lexicon reverbs. They're very colored and take on a sound timbre of their own. So in this regard the PCM is very faithful to the original. Though it is lacking the kind of darker sound that the originals had.

Totally agree on V-Room. It can be an amazing little tool. Den's presets work really well with very little modifications.

Looking into B2 but for some reason it just always came off to my ears as a bit too cold and a tiny bit sterile. But, before I make any conclusions on that, I'd like to put it through it's paces.


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## Lex (Jun 21, 2014)

Did you try Phoenixverb?

http://www.exponentialaudio.com/phoenixverb-stereo/

alex


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## clarkus (Jun 21, 2014)

What's V-Room?

is that Valhalla?


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## marclawsonmusic (Jun 21, 2014)

Lex @ Sat Jun 21 said:


> Did you try Phoenixverb?
> 
> http://www.exponentialaudio.com/phoenixverb-stereo/
> 
> alex



I am not sure PhoenixVerb is a fair comparison, because it is touted as being an extremely _clean_ reverb... clear and devoid of coloration.

My understanding is that people like Lexicon precisely because it _does_ color the sound in a certain way. So this might be an apples-and-oranges comparison.

Perhaps a better comparison is the R2 from Exponential Audio... http://www.exponentialaudio.com/r2-stereo/

But I am no expert on reverb. Someone please correct me if I am wrong!


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## Vin (Jun 21, 2014)

Lexicon has been used on countless scores so you can't really go wrong with it. That said, Valhalla is top quality as well, for a great price.


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## alligatorlizard (Jun 21, 2014)

Thanks for all the advice, sounds like I should definitely skip the LXP option if I'm going for Lexicon. Great to know I can get the PCM bundle for only £140, thanks for that link! As I'm very happy with Spaces for my realistic/orchestral needs, I've no problem with the Lexicon colour, as this I'm looking for an algo verb more for effects/sheen/colour than realism (plus I used to own a PCM70 so am used to the sound). Will check out the others mentioned too though.

Annoyingly, I can't demo the PCM bundle after all, as you need an iLok2! I thought I had one, so installed the software, activated my for-1-week-only demo code, and transferred it to my ilok, only to discover I have an iLok1 not and iLok2... so presumably unless I get an iLok2 before a week is up, that's my demo period gone... grrrr damn iLoks!

Still, if it's up to Lexicon hardware standards (which by all accounts and reviews, it is) then this is one product I might be happy to buy without demo-ing it. Might wait until July 15th (royalties day!) though before doing this - does anyone know if it's regularly at such a low price these days, or is that £140 deal just a fluke?


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## Den (Jun 21, 2014)

*Aether example*



josejherring @ Sat Jun 21 said:


> This is the problem with many Lexicon reverbs. They're very colored and take on a sound timbre of their own. So in this regard the PCM is very faithful to the original. Though it is lacking the kind of darker sound that the originals had.
> 
> Totally agree on V-Room. It can be an amazing little tool. Den's presets work really well with very little modifications.
> 
> Looking into B2 but for some reason it just always came off to my ears as a bit too cold and a tiny bit sterile. But, before I make any conclusions on that, I'd like to put it through it's paces.



Hi
I agree on all your claims, and thanks too.

B2 is a kind of transparent reverb.
But I always prefer Aether for lush reverbs that will sound retro like this example:

https://soundcloud.com/dens-place/aethe ... -hall-2014

This is my latest Large Hall preset and I will attach it here for free for all users of Aether.
o-[][]-o


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## alligatorlizard (Jun 21, 2014)

Aha, I'd been wondering why there was a folder called "Den" in Vroom presets - didn't realise it was someone's name!


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## clarkus (Jun 21, 2014)

What's V-Room? 

is that Valhalla?


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## marclawsonmusic (Jun 21, 2014)

clarkus @ Sat Jun 21 said:


> What's V-Room?
> 
> is that Valhalla?



Yes sir. V-Room = ValhallaRoom.


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## clarkus (Jun 21, 2014)

Thx.

I bought Valhalla earlier this week. Have been using it as my go-to plug-in for the time being. Works well, as I can create multiple instances without freaking out my poor MacBook. 

I'm using the B-2 (which I find silkier) to bounce individual MIDi tracks, creating an audio file which then becomes part of the entire project. That takes care of the CPU issues with that particular product.


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## d-dmusic (Jul 6, 2014)

PCM Native Reverb Bundle is my main go-to....there's a real nice depth there that I can count on...never seems to go away in a mix & 112db Redline Reverb when I need something extremely unusual/lush.


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## Mahlon (Jul 6, 2014)

Generally, what is the processing appetite of the PCM?

Mahlon


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## clarkus (Jul 6, 2014)

Same question.


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## Wes Antczak (Jul 6, 2014)

I find the Lexicon reverbs to be very light on cpu. The most recent releases are supposed to be even more efficient though I haven't yet installed them.


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## alligatorlizard (Jul 8, 2014)

Well I ended up going for the Valhalla Vintage Verb. Partly because I wasn't able to demo the PCM bundle (had already activated the demo period before I realised I only had an iLok1 and would need to buy and iLok2...) partly because I ran over budget on some other things, partly because I also demo'd Valhalla Uber Mod and Shimmer, and decided I'd need these too!!

However am very happy indeed with VVV for a convolution verb - I went for VVV over Vroom as it just had the more pleasing and interesting sound to my ears, and I've already got great real spaces in EWSpaces.

Will probably pick up the PCM stuff at some point though, presumably prices won't skyrocket again after falling so low.


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## Soundmagic (Jul 9, 2014)

You may consider Neo Reverb. there are audio demos and demo version for you to choose.
You can check the audio demos which directly compares it with Lexicon 480L and TC System 6000
http://www.supremepiano.com/product/reverb.html


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## Vin (Jul 10, 2014)

Btw, 


Sean Costello of ValhallaDSP said:


> The 1.5.0b7 beta of VintageVerb is available for testing on OSX and Windows. New features:
> 
> - AAX 32/64-bit (in addition to VST 32/64 bit, AU 32/64 bit, RTAS)
> - *6 new reverb modes*
> ...


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## Vin (Jul 12, 2014)

Also, regarding new 1.5. ValhallaVintageVerb update:



> The 6 new algorithms in VintageVerb:
> 
> - Dirty Hall: Lex 224XL style Concert Hall. Dialed in by A/Bing a Lexicon 224XL in a nice studio. Nonlinear, noise, and quantization artifacts of original 224XL emulated. 70s mode has 8 kHz cutoff of 224, 80s mode the 15 kHz cutoff of 224XL, NOW mode has no bandlimiting.
> 
> ...



Truly amazing value for money, 15 fantastic algorithms for $50. Really insane.


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## Giant_Shadow (Jul 12, 2014)

it sounds great on everything I put it on.



Vin @ Sat Jul 12 said:


> Also, regarding new 1.5. ValhallaVintageVerb update:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## clarkus (Jul 12, 2014)

I've been using Valhalla Room for a month now, getting good results. Still exploring the presets. Not everything works for me. The Cathedrals are great.

Has anyone used Vintage Verb and Valhalla Room, both? Can you contrast them?

I am doing mostly electronic music / dark drama cues @ the moment. Some acoustic (i.e. recorded) sound sources, but mostly synths & samples / non-orchestral.


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## Tino Danielzik (Jul 12, 2014)

clarkus @ Sat Jul 12 said:


> I've been using Valhalla Room for a month now, getting good results. Still exploring the presets. Not everything works for me. The Cathedrals are great.
> 
> Has anyone used Vintage Verb and Valhalla Room, both? Can you contrast them?
> 
> I am doing mostly electronic music / dark drama cues @ the moment. Some acoustic (i.e. recorded) sound sources, but mostly synths & samples / non-orchestral.



Yes, I compared ValhallaRoom and ValhallaVintageVerb with each other and to me VVV is the better one. I use it for all my stuff. I agree with josejherring that VR has a bit of a grainy sounding high end, that is why I don't like it so much, but VVV is a no brainer! Love the different Vintage presets (1970, 1980, now). I prefer 1980, it gives you a very warm and cinematic sound. For orchestral stuff I use my own created preset which includes the "Concert Hall" algo., it is great!

Regards,
Tino


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## Giant_Shadow (Jul 12, 2014)

Free demo here. yes it should be great for that.
http://www.valhalladsp.com/valhallavintageverb



clarkus @ Sat Jul 12 said:


> I've been using Valhalla Room for a month now, getting good results. Still exploring the presets. Not everything works for me. The Cathedrals are great.
> 
> Has anyone used Vintage Verb and Valhalla Room, both? Can you contrast them?
> 
> I am doing mostly electronic music / dark drama cues @ the moment. Some acoustic (i.e. recorded) sound sources, but mostly synths & samples / non-orchestral.


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## Den (Jul 12, 2014)

clarkus @ Sun Jun 22 said:


> Thx.
> 
> I bought Valhalla earlier this week. Have been using it as my go-to plug-in for the time being. Works well, as I can create multiple instances without freaking out my poor MacBook.
> 
> I'm using the B-2 (which I find silkier) to bounce individual MIDi tracks, creating an audio file which then becomes part of the entire project. That takes care of the CPU issues with that particular product.



Those two reverbs are in use here too.

Try on VR this: Copy paste in VR

<ValhallaRoom pluginVersion="1.1.1b11" presetName="M7 Large Hall" mix="1" predelay="0.041999999433755874634" decay="0.026526525616645812988" HighCut="0.43288591504096984863" earlyLateMix="0.75800001621246337891" lateSize="0.97000002861022949219" lateCross="0.15000000596046447754" lateModRate="0.21414141356945037842" lateModDepth="0.20000000298023223877" RTBassMultiply="0.46666666865348815918" RTXover="0.041414141654968261719" RTHighMultiply="0.055555555969476699829" RTHighXover="0.28926175832748413086" earlySize="0.15875875949859619141" earlyCross="0" earlyModRate="0.15151515603065490723" earlyModDepth="0.050000000745058059692" earlySend="0.33000001311302185059" diffusion="0.80000001192092895508" type="0.9166666865348815918"/>

o[])


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## germancomponist (Jul 12, 2014)

So often discussed. 

I have a suggestion: Tomorrow I will post a guitar solo dry, and you all can download the wav and add your favourite reverb and post your result here.

Then let us talk about it.... . ?


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## clarkus (Jul 12, 2014)

Sure!

Thanks.

& thanks, all, for your feedback.


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## wst3 (Jul 13, 2014)

sounds like fun Gunther - and on top of comparing different reverb plug-ins it will be interesting to see what folks do with their tools!

As an aside, I've demo'd all the Valhalla plug-ins, and dang, they are really good. Really good! Better than the price suggests I think. 

If money were no object I'd buy the Exponential Audio plug-ins AND the Valhalla plug-ins. As money is an object I'll start with VVV, and I really don't think it will hamper me in any way!


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## Carbs (Jul 14, 2014)

alligatorlizard @ Tue Jul 08 said:


> Well I ended up going for the Valhalla Vintage Verb. Partly because I wasn't able to demo the PCM bundle (had already activated the demo period before I realised I only had an iLok1 and would need to buy and iLok2...) partly because I ran over budget on some other things, partly because I also demo'd Valhalla Uber Mod and Shimmer, and decided I'd need these too!!
> 
> However am very happy indeed with VVV for a convolution verb - I went for VVV over Vroom as it just had the more pleasing and interesting sound to my ears, and I've already got great real spaces in EWSpaces.
> 
> Will probably pick up the PCM stuff at some point though, presumably prices won't skyrocket again after falling so low.



You made a great choice! The Valhalla reverbs are fantastic, and not just for the price. I have both the room and vintage, and I find myself using the vintage much more often. I use those along with UAD reverbs.

If you find you need to tame any highs or lows I would recommend using a separate filter/eq of some sort inserted before the reverb on the send (I normally use the Logic channel eq) as the one built in to VVV isn't as effective, IMO.


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## clarkus (Jul 14, 2014)

Re: EQ I'm not sure that's accurate. EQ on reverb (as I understand it) is altering what frequencies wind up in the treated sound. You might (or might not) want EQ on the dry signal, but that's a separate issue.

The reason the EQ seems subtle on the verb is because it is: the effect of rolling off part of the frequency range on the untreated signal - which is generally going to predominate in the mix - will be more pronounced.

With that said, I am just starting to understand now to monkey with the EQ option in Valhalla & would be glad to be pointed to any instructional material!


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## Carbs (Jul 14, 2014)

For clarity:

I'm talking about Hi passing or low passing the actual reverb bus. I think this is a pretty common technique, especially when blending different libraries/ and or orchestral sections that you would want to share a reverb, but not necessarily share all the frequencies. I hope that makes sense. I'm very tired! LOL


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## rayinstirling (Jul 15, 2014)

germancomponist @ Sun Jul 13 said:


> So often discussed.
> 
> I have a suggestion: Tomorrow I will post a guitar solo dry, and you all can download the wav and add your favourite reverb and post your result here.
> 
> Then let us talk about it.... . ?



Stop celebrating the world cup win and post that track _-)


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