# Moderation



## PaulR (Jun 23, 2007)

'You're becoming seriously annoying.'

550,000 Poles turning up on your shores uninvited is seriously annoying.

And I don't care for your immature moderation and don't give a flying fuck what you find annoying.


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## Herman Witkam (Jun 23, 2007)

EDIT: ok....I didn't actually read THAT one post... I agree with locking the topic now. :?


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 23, 2007)

I think it's fair to say that Paul's outrageous comment yesterday about helping the Nazis wipe the Polish off the map was far from boring. And Paul, if you have a problem with a moderator, perhaps you should take it up with an administrator.


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## José Herring (Jun 23, 2007)

Chirslight said:


> As long as people identify themselves and others based on race, nationality, gender, or whatever, and make generalized, negative remarks based on those divisions, they will continue to fan the flames of hatred and separation. Collectively, we are all just human beings - albeit packaged a little differently and having different beliefs - inhabiting the same planet, with most of us trying to get along with each other...



Amen


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## PaulR (Jun 23, 2007)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Jun 23 said:


> I think it's fair to say that Paul's outrageous comment yesterday about helping the Nazis wipe the Polish off the map was far from boring. And Paul, if you have a problem with a moderator, perhaps you should take it up with an administrator.



Live with it Ned. I don't need admin - I can take care of myself. The trouble with you people is you just can't hack it when a topic comes up that has anything to do with religion, immigration or politics. You have NEVER seen me have a go at anyone for their religion or politics - therefore how can my attitude to immigration in a country half the size of California have any racist connotations.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 23, 2007)

The original topic and your posted link were fine, your follow-up comment was disgusting.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 23, 2007)

To me the whole concept of it being "our shores" or "my country" [and not yours] or "I pledge allegiance to my country above all others" is at the very least weird. By blind luck most of us on this board live in countries that are doing well for now. But it's a pure accident of birth, not something we've earned - and I have a hard time saying that it's something we're entitled to.

People seek refuge in other countries when the conditions in their own are desperate. It's the same all over the world. If we happened to live in those countries, we'd be doing the same thing. Nobody wants to leave their children behind so they can go to America and clean houses or wait on the corner for a day of heavy labor just so they can send money home to their families.

So the solution here is to build a useless 750 mile long fence. Not only is that a blight, it blocks the path of migrating animals who don't give a s that they're crossing a border.

Now, for the most part - well, that's highly debatable - but let's assume that it's not our fault that there's poverty around the world, and we can't take in the world's poor. Fair enough - sort of. (And by "we" I mean the US and Western Europe.)

But I'd go as far as to say that if anyone doesn't feel a conflict over this, there's something wrong. Of course it's not like I want to open up my house to strangers, and I'd rather live high than have to pay to support poor people (indirectly and in taxes). Everyone would. However, it bothers me how quick otherwise perfectly reasonable people are to bash foreigners. That's how I see the current political climate in the US, and I get the feeling that I'm very much in the minority.

People are the same everywhere, and we have been for the past 35-50,000 years. They're not "your shores," Paul. There are no lines drawn on the planet separating each nation-state if you look at a picture of the globe from outer space.

Meanwhile, our (the US) government has quietly been spending a staggering amount of money on a star wars space-based "missile defense" system that doesn't have a hope of working, much less of buying us any security. On the contrary, it's very dangerous, and it's a colossal waste of money - reaching over $1.25 *trillion* sometime in the next few years by some estimates. (And of course the rest of the world will be forced to respond in kind, because they're not going to sit by and allow the US to control space.)

I bring that up only to put the cost of illegal immigration into the US - in the $50 billion annual range if you believe the worst-case hype - in perspective.

Unfortunately I don't have the answers, because it's a very complicated problem. But I do know that it makes me sick to see our whole country going on an immigrant-bashing frenzy.


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## JohnnyMarks (Jun 23, 2007)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Jun 23 said:


> The original topic and your posted link were fine, your follow-up comment was disgusting.



"Revolting" gets a bit closer to it for me Ned. But really I can't find a word that accurately conveys the depth of disgust I feel about the comment this fellow made.


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## JohnnyMarks (Jun 23, 2007)

josejherring @ Sat Jun 23 said:


> Chirslight said:
> 
> 
> > As long as people identify themselves and others based on race, nationality, gender, or whatever, and make generalized, negative remarks based on those divisions, they will continue to fan the flames of hatred and separation. Collectively, we are all just human beings - albeit packaged a little differently and having different beliefs - inhabiting the same planet, with most of us trying to get along with each other...
> ...



Absof--kinlutely. Thanks for quoting that.


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## Brian Ralston (Jun 23, 2007)

Nick...I don't see many people bashing immigrants. They are speaking out against *ILLEGAL* immigrants. There is a HUGE difference. 

This country was founded on immigration. Everyone here except the native americans can be traced back to another country. The problem is that there are laws governing the immigration process that are being ignored by both the immigrants coming here (mostly from Mexico but other countries too)...through the southern border *and* the businesses hiring them. 

So...yes the system needs to be addressed. But, I kindly  urge everyone discussing the issue to be clear when characterizing the issue that most people have a problem with is the "*ILLEGAL*" immigration part of the immigration issue. At least as the issue is in the U.S. It is against U.S. law to come to this county (to visit or to live) without the proper papers. Hence if you don't do the paper work...you have broken the law...hence your are here ILLEGALLY.

There is a process in place for immigrants who want to come to the U.S. (that needs reforming...yes...) and there are thousands if individuals from other countries who are spending years doing it the "right" and legal way to get a legal green card and eventually, possibly U.S. citizenship...which usually implies some degree of assimilation into the culture of the country your are wanting to become a resident/citizen of. An individual who respects the sovereignty of this country's immigration laws is an individual who I will respect and say "yes...we would love to have you here...welcome. Thanks for doing it the right way." I don't care what their race is. The more diverse the better for this country. 

BUT...

An individual who uses a coyote to race across the border in the dark of night though the AZ desert is a whole different story. (That is of course just one example.) Especially with the security issues of today involving the free roaming access across most of the borders. Hence...some barrier is needed, electronic or otherwise. 

Like Dennis Millers says, "I don't have a problem with immigration. This country was founded on immigration. Just please.....SIGN THE GUEST BOOK ON THE WAY IN!"

And both sides sicken me on their unwillingness to do anything about it. The "business" republicans won't address the issue because they see this flood of illegal immigrants as a source of cheap labor....and the Democrats won't do anything about it because they see it as a source of future votes. 

The policital taint on it all sickens me. Especially when there are already laws on the books which were written to handle things such as a fence, more border guards...the immigration/green card process, etc...

ugh!

:| :x o/~ o/~ ~o)


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## Brian Ralston (Jun 23, 2007)

And for the recrord...I was very disappointed in PaulR when I read the Nazi referenced statement earlier. 

PaulR...we have never met...but wow. I mean...come on with that one. yikes!

:shock: :cry:


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## artsoundz (Jun 23, 2007)

I think it's a mistake to lock the previous thread. However, I'm glad that this important subject continues on.

As for Paul's comment- I think this is a good example of the value of letting people speak openly. Through ths process we can monitor this kind of evil. Otherwise, it goes on behind our backs and children have fewer resources to temper this horrible viewpoint. And I mention children as they are our real hope in ending the kind of hate and damage Paul contributes to the world. w these words. 

Paul, you need to seriously think about your comment. Is your life so terrible now that you wish the death of a race of people? When I hear these comments it's ALWAYS from people who live a great life relative to much of the rest of the world. I just am SO grateful for my "wealthy" life. 

And I LOVE mexicans. I know several and they are the most hardworking family oriented people I know. The majority of"illegals" have contributed to this country and do NOT take anything from our way of life. If you beliieve otherwise then I submit you have not suffered w/ poverty and are wealthier and luckier than you will ever know. 

African Americans were forbidden by AMERICAN law to live a life they were entitled to by God(or whom/whatever) The argument of doing things legally at all costs is naive and not well thought out. Very common and scary.

Thank you for the opportunity to express my opinion.


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## Hermitage59 (Jun 23, 2007)

"Religion is the Opiate of the masses, and Nationalism is the Opiate of Politicians.'

A lot of reading here, and naturally some passionate responses.

Some thoughts, and strictly personal comments, as Paul can speak for himself.

I lived in London when the Second Wave of illegal immigrants washed in. I was torn between relief that they had a chance to, at least, get a break from the conflict and despair in their own countries, and caution because i didn't know what to expect. As a fellow who has travelled much to many parts of the globe, it occured to me at the time to adopt the same approach as earlier travelling days, and, well, hold out the hand of friendship and welcome.

Problem was, the II's were, in a large majority, reluctant to understand or even try to understand, the natural differences in culture that required a period of patience.
Complete external cultures were transplanted en bloc, and created 'nationalistic ghettos' in formerly openminded neighbourhoods. It takes two to reach an agreement, and it was, sadly, my experience that instead of grasping the opportunity to make a fresh start, a good chunk of II's held their hand out for 'free cash', and offered little in return. I'm not sure if this is the experience in the US, but in North London, within the space of 5 years, there were a dozen of these ghettos, each 'ringfenced' by the culture of familiar language and tradition, and a reluctance to learn anything about the culture of a nation that took them in, clothed, housed and fed them, even though they'd arrived illegally. Now, we could all be horses asses and use the law as a weapon to denigrate people, over compassion and humanity, to protect 'our own patch', but it does take some effort on the part of the arrivals to minimise the 'culture shock'. There are big chunks of London at present that are unsafe for 'white locals' to walk or even drive through, so overwhelmed is the infrastructure at the moment, and it's not getting better with time. Britain has had no rest from these successive waves from many parts of the world for some time now, thanks to incompetent and deceitful politicans who, as Brian put it, seek to canvass the 'Immigrant' vote without providing some degree of long term balance and understanding of absorbtion rates.

Add to that the narrow minded nationalistic perspective so willingly used in schools by politicians the world over, with their own agenda and self preservation in mind, and the mix will always be an uneasy one, with emotive results on both sides.

I completely agree with Nick and Chrislight on this particular subject, and would be happier living in a world without borders, nationalism, or 'lines on a map.' The economic zones we currently call nations only serve a minority, that of keeping all those potential economically profitable machines (us fellows and ladies) in one spot. Add to that generational 'tribal' loyalties carefully nurtured by both those who would seek control over others, and it's not surprising our planet is getting f**cked up big time.

To the current point.
Some of you may think Paul's comments are extreme, but i would say that the crap that came out of the Polish president's mouth, in a clumsy attempt to belligerently club Germany and others into shameful submission because of the past, was far worse, with all the echoes of the perception of a rising nationalism that so many (including several of my own ancestors) died to defeat at the beginning of last century. I feel some strong degree of sympathy for the civilised people of Poland being represented in such a way, as it must surely be not only embarrasing, but cringeworthy, to hear the same stuff coming from the mouth of their elected leader as the not so decent leaders of the past. 

Interesting that for all the victim status this particular Polish leader has nurtured, it was Polish leaders, in league with German leaders, who decided to, and did trash Czechoslavakia in 1938. So if we were to use history as a vehicle or weapon for belligerent name calling, no one is innocent, and the current Polish leadership should have remembered this when they embarked on their nationalistic journey through the halls of the EU. (Again, i have a degree of sympathy for ordinary Polish folk who were civilised enough to feel embarrassed at this approach.)

On top of this, it's my opinion that we haven't seen the last of this idealism and intent, and i can only hope that the rest of Europe are strong enough to resist, with the potential it has for new conflict among europeans and/or with those for whom the Polish leadership, among others, seek cold blooded, neanderthalic, revenge.
Interesting that it is an offence in Poland to criticise the president, and a certain Lech Walesa was recently in trouble with the authorities for referring to the current Polish president as a 'blockhead.' (A mirror of the Patriot Act?) so it's almost a relief to know that the people of Poland don't always get it right either.

So while you're eagerly condemning Paul for his forthright comments, you might spare a thought, in balance, for the far greater potential for trouble eminating from purported leaders (and their 'friends') in other places who seem to want trouble, and will resort to old fashioned naming and shaming and 'or else' as a means of getting it, and staying in power. (To the profit of arms manufacturers. May they rot in Hades for all eternity.) I'd be far more concerned at this than the 'PC requirement' of staying off the delicate subjects (The modern social equivalent of shutting someone up you don't agree with.). And i'd be doubly concerned if the modern people of Poland, like the modern people of the US, UK, Russia, Germany, or anywhere else, were tarred and feathered with the insensitive, belligerent, clumsy and agenda driven, actions and words of their leadership.

As an aside to this, i would recommend googling Hitler's rather infamous speech to the German Parliament shortly before declaring war on Poland, and comparing it the rhetoric we're getting today from our allegedly democratic leaders, and their cohorts and enthusiastic followers in the 'democratic' media.



You might be surprised.

Alex.


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## artsoundz (Jun 23, 2007)

There is simply nothing that can justify Pauls comment. Nothing you said. Alex, justifies Paul expressing the desire to wipe off the face of earth and entire race of people. NOTHING. No historical perspective, no leadership errors and blunders, nothing. 


Same tired old rhetoric. Old dog- no new tricks.


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## Hermitage59 (Jun 23, 2007)

Art,
I disagree with Paul's perspective too. But to focus on that, and remove the chance to examine the wider issue currently being faced seems narrow to me. As i wrote, Paul can speak for himself, and my comments are my own. 

As for tired old rhetoric, what's the context you're using? Paul's comments or mine? Or both?

Alex.


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## CFDG (Jun 23, 2007)

Peut on rire de tout? Oui. 
Avec n'importe qui? Non.
(Pierre Desproges)

Christian


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 23, 2007)

Brian, the problem with the "it's illegal and that's wrong" argument is that we all know they'd just get arrested if they tried to "sign the guestbook." These people are absolutely desperate - it's not that they all want to come here and take advantage of us. I mean, we had a nanny who was dying of cancer about ten years ago, and they wouldn't even let her mother in to see her before she died (and she was too sick to go home). It was incredibly sad, in fact I still get upset about how terrible those bastards were to her (and about our nanny, who was an exceptional woman).

As I said, there's no simple answer, because we can't afford to pay for all the world's poor - at least I assume we can't. But to me the mass bashing is because people simply like to feel superior, and what easier target than some brown foreigners. I'm not saying that's you - in fact it's not you - but I do believe it's most people who jump onboard. It's the same phenomenon that leads people to support wars without stopping to think about how stupid their justifications are (and I'm not just talking about the present day, I mean throughout history). A few more days and the public would easily have supported a war with France - the country that gave us the Statue of Liberty!

Politicians know what "resonates" and "connects" with the public, and therefore are quick to jump on illegal immigration as an issue, whipping everyone up into a frenzy. Then otherwise sensible talking heads like Lou Dobbs join in, and next thing you know you have a 750 mile fence. What an embarrassment.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 23, 2007)

Meanwhile our government subsidizes corn heavily, forcing Mexican farmers out of business and corn to become very expensive in Mexico, exacerbating the problem.


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## artsoundz (Jun 23, 2007)

Hermitage59 @ Sat Jun 23 said:


> "Religion is the Opiate of the masses, and Nationalism is the Opiate of Politicians.'
> 
> 
> Some of you may think Paul's comments are extreme, but i would say that the crap that came out of the Polish president's mouth, in a clumsy attempt to belligerently club Germany and others into shameful submission because of the past, was far worse, with all the echoes of the perception of a rising nationalism that so many (including several of my own ancestors) died to defeat at the beginning of last century.



Aren't you saying "I disagree w/ Paul, but can you blame him? ".


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## Hermitage59 (Jun 23, 2007)

artsoundz @ Sun Jun 24 said:


> Hermitage59 @ Sat Jun 23 said:
> 
> 
> > "Religion is the Opiate of the masses, and Nationalism is the Opiate of Politicians.'
> ...



No. But neither am i willing to take his view out of a wider context, and ignore the reasons that lead to such views being expressed. And no offence to Paul, but he's an ordinary chap like us, unlike the Polish leader who has all the military and economic resources of a nation at his fingertips (including friends abroad), and who's decision making power can significantly change and affect not only the future of his own people, but those in other countries. For a man in such a position to express such an extreme and belligerent stance is far more worrying to me. The missile 'defence shield' he so willingly accepted was contrary to the desires of the rest of Europe, and has provided the potential for driving a wedge through the progress being made to unite the people's of Europe. That indeed may well be the intent after all, to slow or inhibit the growing trade potential of a united EU. Divide and conquer?

Just to add further to this discussion, I'd be more than willing to see the disbandment of NATO, as it has ceased to be an instrument of mutual defence, and sadly, evolved into a belligerent political tool in what seems like the wrong hands, looking for an excuse to put more cash in the pockets of arms manufacturers and other interested parties. The polish stance at the EU summit is directly connected to this, and must have been on the minds of other representatives as they sought to make decisions and plan for an EU future. We could add the farcial extraordinary rendition tale to this, and again the Polish leadership (and UK among others) feature prominently in making decisions contrary to the wider wishes of the EU , but maybe that's for another thread.

Paul's opinion is his own, and to be seen to express outrage at his view to the exclusion of the initial causes or reasons is, in my humble opinion, counterproductive and missing the real, potentially dangerous, point.

I respect his right, and yours, to express a view, even if that view may be uncomfortable.
History tells us over and over again that the perception of 'an extreme view' is often a matter of timing, and/or political expediency.

Alex.


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## artsoundz (Jun 24, 2007)

Alex,
I learned all about what a leader can do to his country and it's people by the fourth grade. We're having the same problem here. now. But most of who I know wouldnt justify Pauls scenario no matter what social , poltical or hisorical perspective offered.


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## Hermitage59 (Jun 24, 2007)

artsoundz @ Sun Jun 24 said:


> Alex,
> I learned all about what a leader can do to his country and it's people by the fourth grade. We're having the same problem here. now. But most of who I know wouldnt justify Pauls scenario no matter what social , poltical or hisorical perspective offered.



And once again, i'm not trying to justify Paul's position. He has his own view and i disagree with it.

What concerns you more?
The fact that Paul expressed such a strong view, or that i'm not relentlessly gushing with disgust and abbhorence to your satisfaction? (As if it's somehow required in some sort of PC framework to be OTT with expressions of disgust?) If this were a requirement of some sort, then we'd be forbidden under that criteria from communicating with most of the planet. 
No. That solves nothing, and it's a lack of dialogue, the active suppression of opinion and perspective, and the desire to shut people up when they have an opposing view, no matter the subject material or strength of views expressed, that perpetuates much of the conflict we have today. (IMHO) 

It's times like this, particularly on our planet at the moment, that we need to be objective, removed from emotive overload or expectations of 'how loudly one must protest', and explore and define the deeper reasons that threaten to raise the prospect of major conflict once again.


Alex.


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## PaulR (Jun 24, 2007)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Jun 23 said:


> The original topic and your posted link were fine, your follow-up comment was disgusting.



That may depend on (a) your extremely limited knowledge of history and (b) whether you're a tunnel visioned liberal.

You bandy words like Nazi at every given opportunity without the slightest idea of what you're talking about.
There was a political party - and then there was the German fighting force of whom not everyone cared for politics. 

The German fighting machine and the men therein, were one of the best fighting forces in the past 2000 years. Chamberlain, a wet liberal, didn't want to fight with Germany for one nanno second, but was later forced to change his mind when Germany invaded Poland. Great Britain as a nation were then against Germany. We could quite easily have gone the other way - that would have been interesting. You should understand that the indigenous English and Germans are genetically very similar people - almost related.
Move on 65 years and take a look at what has been allowed to happen to England today and then tell me I'm right wing and I'll stick my hand up your ass and rip out your spleen.

As to some of these poor boys that like to wallow in their self righteousness - the British Army raped and pillaged it's way through Europe in 1944/45.
Bottom line in warfare is - if you're going to attack Panzer and Tiger tank divisions using a lance from horseback - expect to get you head blown off. That's war and if you're not prepared - you lose and don't expect any sympathy.


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## PaulR (Jun 24, 2007)

Brian Ralston @ Sat Jun 23 said:


> And both sides sicken me on their unwillingness to do anything about it. The "business" republicans won't address the issue because they see this flood of illegal immigrants as a source of cheap labor....and the Democrats won't do anything about it because they see it as a source of future votes.
> 
> The policital taint on it all sickens me. Especially when there are already laws on the books which were written to handle things such as a fence, more border guards...the immigration/green card process, etc...
> 
> ...



Absolutely. Also, ask yourself why a million plus Poles in this instance want to especially come to England. Is for the weather? Is it because they love us? Is because they like to look at the views of English countryside? Is because they want to go to Glastonbury?

Or is it because they've fucked up their own country - like so many other nations - they feel they have the right to just show up - for the MONEY- from an economy they have had zero input in, whatsoever. They feel because of pricks like Blair and Brown (who failed to put a cap on the immigration numbers - unlike everyone else) they can just show up here to cash in and expect the English - to say - HI - come on in and fuck my sister.

In a country half the size of California and with a pop. of 60 million plus.

Hello?


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## zonobono (Jun 24, 2007)

in switzerland there are app. 20 % of the population not swiss, immigrants and refugees, and nobody is starving. 

i wonder what your problem is?


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## Hermitage59 (Jun 24, 2007)

Zono,
I'm pleased to hear no one is starving. Always a good sign of compassion and humanity within a people.

So how do you do it? What sort of controls or procedures does the swiss system have in place that helps the transition of language culture etc. into the Swiss system? Is there a quota for the number of immigrants? Are they required to learn the language within a given timeframe? Do they blend in with the local community, or live in designated areas?

Alex.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 24, 2007)

Paul, 

I've only used the word Nazi once or perhaps twice in nearly 2,000 posts. You're confusing me with someone else, or just projecting. And the comment about what you might do to me if I call you right wing is pure bullying.

It's sad to me that there can be still be today such admiration for a 20th Century army. What a terrible century it was for so many people who died needlessly. What horror some of our parents, grandparents or relatives saw and even lived through. Please post your incidiery views somewhere else, or voice them in a (Polish) bar.


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## Niah (Jun 24, 2007)

http://www.banksy.co.uk/indoors/images/oils/nighthawks.jpg (http://www.banksy.co.uk/indoors/images/ ... thawks.jpg)


:roll:


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## PaulR (Jun 24, 2007)

Hey Niah - you fucking Portugese poof prick. How's it going in that 3rd world peasant country of yours? Still looking to us while you remain neutral, like those other crappy euro trash countries who couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag?

And I happen to like Edward Hopper.


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## Herman Witkam (Jun 24, 2007)

Man.... now he was obviously very frustrated, and decided to take his frustration here, instead of seeing a shrink :shock: 

The Polish economy has a growth rate of 8% (among the highest in the EU), and labor migration figures are falling for years now, so what the hell is he talking about :?


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## José Herring (Jun 24, 2007)

I think that's why this topic of illegal immigration is so hard to tackle. Too often proponents of controlling immigration just turn out to be racist bastards. These overshadow more moderate proponents of the subject.


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## lux (Jun 24, 2007)

guys, lets just this thread go and back to usual fun, dont we?


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## Herman Witkam (Jun 24, 2007)

josejherring @ Sun Jun 24 said:


> I think that's why this topic of illegal immigration is so hard to tackle. Too often proponents of controlling immigration just turn out to be racist bastards.



Exactly. We've had our share here in the Netherlands, with a currently active political party openly being 'against migration' and 'against islam', this party having 9 out of 150 parliament seats. In all debates that I've seen concerning immigrants/migration in parliament, there was really no way to put some sense into those people. It's just pure racism.


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## Frederick Russ (Jun 24, 2007)

PaulR @ Sun Jun 24 said:


> Hey Niah - you [email protected]#king Portugese poof prick. How's it going in that 3rd world peasant country of yours? Still looking to us while you remain neutral, like those other crappy euro trash countries who couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag?
> 
> And I happen to like Edward Hopper.



Expressing a point of view is one thing. Directly attacking a member of VI is entirely another. Not sure what's going on with Paul - he's never acted like this before. Difficult decision - by consensus vote of the moderation panel we're giving Paul a _temporary_ timeout, sorry.


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## Chrislight (Jun 24, 2007)

Ashermusic @ Sun Jun 24 said:


> Chrislight @ Sun Jun 24 said:
> 
> 
> > There is a difference between freedom and license IMHO.



Of course - and where someone crosses that line is a matter of opinion. I remember a thread we decided to lock and because of that received numerous messages disagreeing with that decision, so obviously we are not going to please everybody all the time. Fortunately, 99.9% of the time members here HAVE been respectful with their postings and in the few cases where there has been a problem, the members themselves have sometimes stepped in to bring things back in line, or one of the moderators will say something. We generally prefer to handle it that way, rather than getting heavy handed with censuring (deleting posts and locking threads).


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## Hermitage59 (Jun 24, 2007)

You're obviously going to moderate, and take action if necessary, according to a prescribed definition of what crosses the line you decide a criteria for, and what doesn't, and if we are to post here then that criteria should be respected.
I have no problem with that bit, but if 'dissing a race of people' crosses that line, in a portrayal of one nation of people as a particular and 'uncivilised' stereotype, then shouldn't Niah come under the same scrutiny for a link to an image that is clearly designed to promote a image of Britons as a nation of destructive, beer swilling, football hooligans, and an exercise in poor judgement on his part, or potentially a bit of mischief making, trying to turn up the heat further, so to speak?

Do you find this image funny or offensive? Does it fit within a stereotype promoted by others to put down or denigrate a 'race' of people? Is this any less offensive than Paul's comments, and possible a reason for his further strident response?

I'm not defending Paul here, as he take care of himself, but I do wonder if the application of criteria is consistent.

Just two further Euros worth.

Alex.


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## bryla (Jun 24, 2007)

Well Niah never implied whipping out entire England... As Paul actually suggested that me and my fathers and their fathers should either have been killed 70 years ago, or at least we shouldn't be alive now....


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## Ashermusic (Jun 24, 2007)

Chrislight @ Sun Jun 24 said:


> Ashermusic @ Sun Jun 24 said:
> 
> 
> > Chrislight @ Sun Jun 24 said:
> ...



Of course that is correct. 

We are just going to have to agree to disagree as to how well the mods walk that line.

Personally I am not impressed.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 24, 2007)

Ashermusic @ 24/6/2007 said:


> Personally I am not impressed.



Frankly Jay, I don't give a damn.


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## artsoundz (Jun 24, 2007)

"Personally I am not impressed."

Yeah, thanks for standing up to Paul.. Impressive.


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## Niah (Jun 24, 2007)

Hermitage59 @ Sun Jun 24 said:


> You're obviously going to moderate, and take action if necessary, according to a prescribed definition of what crosses the line you decide a criteria for, and what doesn't, and if we are to post here then that criteria should be respected.
> I have no problem with that bit, but if 'dissing a race of people' crosses that line, in a portrayal of one nation of people as a particular and 'uncivilised' stereotype, then shouldn't Niah come under the same scrutiny for a link to an image that is clearly designed to promote a image of Britons as a nation of destructive, beer swilling, football hooligans, and an exercise in poor judgement on his part, or potentially a bit of mischief making, trying to turn up the heat further, so to speak?
> 
> Do you find this image funny or offensive? Does it fit within a stereotype promoted by others to put down or denigrate a 'race' of people? Is this any less offensive than Paul's comments, and possible a reason for his further strident response?
> ...



Alex,

I see your point and in a way I agree with you however there are certain things that need to be taken into consideration.

First a little history...

Since the begining that I've noticed that Paul had a very agitaded way of expressing his ideas and opinions. That's ok everyone has their personality. However there was this big music discussion about two years ago and Paul was starting to insult some people. After I made a post telling him to calm down he calls me a "portugese poof" and I wasn't even envolved on the discussion. In my opinion that was unecessary and uncalled for.

(btw "spoof" is a british term for "fag", not a very nice thing to say to someone)

One thing is insulting a person another is insulting his nationality as well. At the time I layed low and did nothing about it.

So this is not the first time that Paul's comments were unapropriated. This time he was warned by the mods more than once and continued to bash and cursing. It's something that I'm having some difficulty to understand, the more Paul was brought to reason the more he crossed the line.

The picture that I've posted is a famous oil painting that has been adultered by a BRITISH artist. What it really means only the artist knows, nevertheless I posted because I saw a great similarity in Paul's attitude and the man portraited on the painting. It was never a generalization about british people it was about paul.

Even so I admit that it was not necessary but there is only so much one person can take.

Now if I were to be banned because of this I should at least receive as many warnings and oportunies as Paul did.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 24, 2007)

Ashermusic @ 24/6/2007 said:


> And Ned wrote: "Frankly Jay, I don't give a damn."
> 
> Exactly.



Please don't misinterpret my post.

Franklly Jay, I don't give a damn if you're not impressed by how we moderate our forum. I _do_ give a damn (as do all moderators here) about what PaulR posted, and any other posts that so obviously cross the line of acceptable forum behaviour towards other members.


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## artsoundz (Jun 24, 2007)

.[/quote] ASHER:

Of course that is correct. 

We are just going to have to agree to disagree as to how well the mods walk that line.

Personally I am not impressed.[/quote]

Thats when Ned responded. AFTERryour diss of the moderators who did their job well.And you jump in at the end with that? How on earth you can draw them into this, I dont know.

You're out of line pal. Get your own facts straight.


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## Hermitage59 (Jun 24, 2007)

Niah @ Mon Jun 25 said:


> Hermitage59 @ Sun Jun 24 said:
> 
> 
> > You're obviously going to moderate, and take action if necessary, according to a prescribed definition of what crosses the line you decide a criteria for, and what doesn't, and if we are to post here then that criteria should be respected.
> ...



Niah,
So you had a problem with Paul two years ago, and at a time when things were getting heated you post an image that could only make things worse, just to get your own back? 
Man, you really hold a grudge, don't you.

I do know the painting, and with a sense of humour, understand the irony of it.



Craig,
Thanks for clearing that up.

Alex.


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## Frederick Russ (Jun 24, 2007)

Personally I'm not that happy that it came down to this. Paul is a good contributor here. I didn't look forward to dealing with it honestly. I mean who knows? He could have had something really crappy happen to him in the last few days and many people know that folks do deal with stress differently. This timeout for Paul is only temporary. We did what we had to do though - its really nothing personal against anyone. 

To those on the opposite side of the fence who say we don't do enough and need to run a tighter ship, well, point taken and thanks for sharing it. But in response I find that its way too easy to get overzealous - in the past some of us have seen entire communities go down the tubes in the name of so-called efficiency only to become a shadow of what they once were. I really don't want to see that happen here. 

I believe that our mod team is one of the best anywhere and we try to render a fair and balanced approach to everyone here. I'll submit though that we're human. Its not possible to please everyone all the time. The idea is building community where everyone contributes something of worth - musicians helping musicians. That is the dream - although there are snags along the way from time to time.


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## Hermitage59 (Jun 24, 2007)

Frederick Russ @ Mon Jun 25 said:


> He could have had something really crappy happen to him in the last few days and many people know that folks do deal with stress differently.



Exactly. 

And it's worth saying that this place has proved to be a rather decent watercooler (as NB once described it) and is moderated loosely enough, IMHO, to enable many POV to be expressed.



Alex.


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## Niah (Jun 25, 2007)

Hermitage59 @ Mon Jun 25 said:


> Niah @ Mon Jun 25 said:
> 
> 
> > Hermitage59 @ Sun Jun 24 said:
> ...



Alex,

I see your point and in a way I agree with you however there are certain things that need to be taken into consideration.

First a little history...

Since the begining that I've noticed that Paul had a very agitaded way of expressing his ideas and opinions. That's ok everyone has their personality. However there was this big music discussion about two years ago and Paul was son is a local DJ who uses Ableton and Kyma for some really intense live mixing and sound sculpting.

http://forums.planetz.com/download/file.php?id=5670  1 þ…‚
e056291cefRe: Action / Horror cueLike the cue. 

I am with Mr. Marcussen here, tho if it were me, I would add a_ little _bit of low end. Does not sound muffled, but i think that term is misused. I think alot of people use "muffled" when they can not hear some instruments distinctly - they can't put their finger on anything specific - alot of instruments "blend" into one another, so it's "muffled". Not putting anyone down here, but that's what I think it is when people say that.

Cheers. þ†‚
d996d4acec-Re: A very high recommendation about PLECTRUM× [quote:d996d4acec="chimuelo @ Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:40 pm"]A little OT but Pedro..............Is that B & W picture from High School days ??[/quote]

haha 

I was 27 there. I am 29 now (almost 30). h  þ‡‚  _The first one. Am I pumping the strings too much now? 

The orchestration is something I'm trying out from Harry Potter. Here's my reduction of that score fragment (4 bars of my reduction is legal to post for illustrative purposes, right?) 

http://www.jefflaity.com/scores/Williams-harry1.jpg

The above starts around bar 6 of the track "Harry's Wondrous World" from the Harry Potter & The Sorcerer's Stone soundtrack. 

Melody is violins, violas, clarinet, E Horn
Cello, oboe play ostinato
Bass, trombones, tuba play pad

I can scan my sketch of this cue if anyone is interested.°  þˆ‚ Re: Iran is on fire!“I guarantee you this is yet an other popular coup backed up by the US. All the signs are there.

And this online campaign is a part of it. 

These images are pure propaganda. Always telling the story from the revolution point of view. Turning victims into heroes. The Muousai guys portrait as the good guys who help injured officer but there's no way to know who injured the guy. Showing images of people who got shut but without showing us who shut those persons. For all we know they were shuts by CIA or Mousai supporters who though a bit of blood would shock Iranians and help overthrow the government. The fact is we don't know who's doing the killing. There's been no investigation and we just don't know. 

There's a video on YouTube that shows a guy hiding behind a window shouting at people. You think our government don't do these things? Well they do and they did it to overthrow the democratically elected president of Iran in 1953. 300 hundred innocent people died. After the protest failed to overthrow the government, they resorted to gorilla warfare tactics and killed innocent civilians and they blamed Mossadegh for it. But the truth eventually came out as we all know. Yes the US and UK did that in 1953. But of course you guys think it's ridiculous to think that the US and UK would be involve again right? :roll: 

You guys sound mor


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## Ashermusic (Jun 25, 2007)

artsoundz @ Sun Jun 24 said:


> .


 ASHER:

Of course that is correct. 

We are just going to have to agree to disagree as to how well the mods walk that line.

Personally I am not impressed.[/quote]

Thats when Ned responded. AFTERryour diss of the moderators who did their job well.And you jump in at the end with that? How on earth you can draw them into this, I dont know.

You're out of line pal. Get your own facts straight.[/quote]

How they moderate the forum is not a factual issue, it is an opinion. I participate in several forums. Some of them , like the Logic Users over-moderate IN MY OPINION.
This one under-moderates IN MY OPINION.

I brought it up to try to encourage them to find what I perceive to be a middle ground.

You disagree. That is fine. Ned disagrees. That is fine.


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## Craig Sharmat (Jun 25, 2007)

Jay,

I understand you would like us mods to be more active but consider this...you can disagree openly here about moderator or admin policy for as long as you like, and we will not ban you. If you wish to be part of a place which would ban you for your disagreeing with a mod, there are other options. You can go get yourself banned there, and come back here when you feel like not being banned.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 25, 2007)

Craig Sharmat @ Mon Jun 25 said:


> Jay,
> 
> I understand you would like us mods to be more active but consider this...you can disagree openly here about moderator or admin policy for as long as you like, and we will not ban you. If you wish to be part of a place which would ban you for your disagreeing with a mod, there are other options. You can go get yourself banned there, and come back when here when you feel like not being banned.



Craig, there is a kind of a wide swath between banning and a moderator replying to a post and saying something like "That comment was rude and is not the kind of thing we encourage here. Please keep it respectful."

That's what I mean by a middle ground.

I really don't want to beat this to death. This forum is what it is, there are some great guys here who I learn from and enjoy interacting with and dealing with the ones I perceive as being yahoos comes with the territory.

And as I said, I think the moderators were spot on with the issue of Paul's comments and I applaud them for it.


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## Ed (Jun 25, 2007)

Niah @ Sun Jun 24 said:


> (btw "spoof" is a british term for "fag", not a very nice thing to say to someone)



It took me ages to realise you meant "poof". :D


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## Niah (Jun 25, 2007)

Ed @ Mon Jun 25 said:


> Niah @ Sun Jun 24 said:
> 
> 
> > (btw "spoof" is a british term for "fag", not a very nice thing to say to someone)
> ...



:lol:


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 25, 2007)

Ashermusic @ 25/6/2007 said:


> I really don't want to beat this to death. This forum is what it is, there are some great guys here who I learn from and enjoy interacting with and dealing with the ones I perceive as being
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Please don't spam, Jay.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 25, 2007)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Jun 25 said:


> Ashermusic @ 25/6/2007 said:
> 
> 
> > I really don't want to beat this to death. This forum is what it is, there are some great guys here who I learn from and enjoy interacting with and dealing with the ones I perceive as being
> ...



Please don't spam, Jay.[/quote

LOL!


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## Hannes_F (Jun 25, 2007)

Hi,

if you go to www.frischatopiola.de you see a duo formed by a Pole and a German (me) since nearly 20 years now. Robert is a fantastic accordion player (has won the german national championshop on his instrument twice despite being polish) and is one of the finest and most professional musicians I have ever met. This is part of the polish-german or german-polish reality and it is happening NOW. Same for many other international musicians that I am working with regularly.

As everybody here I have learnt about what happened in Germany 65 years ago in literally every year of school. Not only in history, but also in politics, philosophy, sociology, literature. As you may imagine this was THE topic, again and again, every year. Even today there will hardly be one day in german television where WWII and what lead to it is not featured. This is necessary since without any doubt we need to never forget. 

On the other hand as you may imagine one gets a sense over the years about when somebody uses the whole topic to capitalize on it in one or the other way. Please don't do this with that part of history, it is too tragical to be used as a donkey in front of your own cart. People will not always comment but be sure they notice it.

Let me summarize that I am really happy to have many musicians as friends that are polish, french, british, from the netherlands, from hungary etc. Please notice everybody that there is a german-polish (and german-french and german-british and german-american) REALITY happening NOW on the personal plane, and as individuals we just want to live and work together constructively.

Hannes


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## VonRichter (Jun 25, 2007)

I have only 2 things to say:

1. Everyone alive on the planet is an immigrant if you go back far enough into history.

2. The hottest girl I have ever dated was an "illegal immigrant".

:wink:


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 26, 2007)

Yeah, I dated her too.


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## VonRichter (Jun 26, 2007)

Here she is, Midiphase:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Kyof95wJpq8

You know what they says about getting what you wish for :-P


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## Aaron Sapp (Jun 26, 2007)

Hey Von, if you put as much work into trying to find music gigs as you do your videos, I bet you'd be well ahead of the pack by now.


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## JohnnyMarks (Jun 27, 2007)

Hannes, thanks for relating that. I'm struck by the contrast to the approach (or lack thereof, as it happens) taken on this subject in Japan.


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## PaulR (Jul 12, 2007)

Brian Ralston @ Sat Jun 23 said:


> And for the recrord...I was very disappointed in PaulR when I read the Nazi referenced statement earlier.
> 
> PaulR...we have never met...but wow. I mean...come on with that one. yikes!
> 
> :shock: :cry:



Oh for God sake Brian! Do try and relax. It's the blond hair that does it. I know.


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## PaulR (Jul 12, 2007)

Ashermusic @ Mon Jun 25 said:


> Craig Sharmat @ Mon Jun 25 said:
> 
> 
> > And as I said, I think the moderators were spot on with the issue of Paul's comments and I applaud them for it.



That's because you're a yid - and yids have problems with discussions about demographics. I know because my great-great grandfather was a rabbi - even though I'm a catholic and most of the yids in this family have married out over the years.

Having said that - I can understand some of the almost shrill and hysterical comments coming from Los Angeles. Surely one of the most pointless places on God's earth - that it's population almost gives rise for the reintroduction of slavery.


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## zonobono (Jul 12, 2007)

lol - here we go again.


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## Craig Sharmat (Jul 12, 2007)

PaulR @ Thu Jul 12 said:


> Ashermusic @ Mon Jun 25 said:
> 
> 
> > Craig Sharmat @ Mon Jun 25 said:
> ...



BYE BYE o-[][]-o


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## choc0thrax (Jul 12, 2007)

OMG how did Paul get that warning counter thing. I wannnt one of those.


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## IvanP (Jul 12, 2007)

Craig Sharmat @ Thu Jul 12 said:


> PaulR @ Thu Jul 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Ashermusic @ Mon Jun 25 said:
> ...



Didn't Monthy Python saw this coming?


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## Synesthesia (Jul 12, 2007)

PaulR @ Thu Jul 12 said:


> the reintroduction of slavery.



You are a fucking idiot.

Just go away.

Paul


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## lux (Jul 12, 2007)

choc0thrax @ Thu Jul 12 said:


> OMG how did Paul get that warning counter thing. I wannnt one of those.



done


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## choc0thrax (Jul 12, 2007)

lux @ Thu Jul 12 said:


> choc0thrax @ Thu Jul 12 said:
> 
> 
> > OMG how did Paul get that warning counter thing. I wannnt one of those.
> ...



Thank you very much!!!


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## Mike Greene (Jul 12, 2007)

LOL!!! :lol: 

Hey! I want one too! Just yesterday, I was being mean to John DeBorde. He was devastated by it and would probably feel a lot better if he knew I got a warning!


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## Hannes_F (Jul 12, 2007)

I am not sure whether he would need help. Sometimes people are in a crisis and try to hurt themselves and others or provoke others to hurt them.

I have also my story with PaulR for bashing on people I rely to and being sarcastic but underneath he seemed a good guy nevertheless. Now it does not feel healthy any more.

So Paul ... what's really up?


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## Craig Sharmat (Jul 12, 2007)

after Mike that's it. we will start charging for these


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## choc0thrax (Jul 12, 2007)

My impression of Paul has always been that he was old and crusty on top of that. Now though he seems to have gone a bit senile which can be amusing. I'd like to welcome Mike to the exclusive warnings club. I'm wondering if I get a special jacket and hat for joining?


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## choc0thrax (Jul 12, 2007)

But i'm already wearing that... :?


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## artsoundz (Jul 12, 2007)

Hannes_F @ Thu Jul 12 said:


> I am not sure whether he would need help. Sometimes people are in a crisis and try to hurt themselves and others or provoke others to hurt them.
> 
> I have also my story with PaulR for bashing on people I rely to and being sarcastic but underneath he seemed a good guy nevertheless. Now it does not feel healthy any more.
> 
> So Paul ... what's really up?



That's pretty cool of you,Hannes. really....

But it's one thing to lash out one or two times.He just continues on. His comments have been a little more specific than a broad gesture of pain. He ,to me, has a deep seated racist philosophy and he is choosing to cause problems w his old world [/i]B.S. 

I know you're going to read this Paul so why don't you consider that you've come a long way in life and this isn't the way you want to leave it. It's just too embarrassing.

Hell of a legacy, eh old chap?


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## Lunatique (Jul 20, 2007)

I hate saying this, but as someone who immigrated to the States when I was a child (I was 11--I'm now 34), most of the people I know of my race (Chinese, from Taiwan, China, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Singapore...etc) who immigrated here live lifestyles and carry attitudes that I find shameful. Some never bothered to become proficient in English and can barely carry on a coherent conversation. Many only socialize with people within their own race, and they even exclude Chinese Americans that don't speak the mother tongue--to them, the ABC's (American Born Chinese) are sellouts and traitors to their own race because they fraternize with the foreigners and also marry them. When these people go out, they only go to Chinese restaurants, only shop Chinese-owned retailed stores, only listen to Chinese music, work for Chinese-owned businesses that caters only to the Chinese...etc. 

They don't give a rat's ass about what's happening in the U.S. government or society--as long as it doesn't really affect them specifically (for example, immigration law), they just don't care. They think of themselves as being smarter, harder working, and overall superior to the "stupid whites" and "lowly Mexicans" and "criminal blacks." Many try to evade taxes if they can get away with it--the illegal ones get paid under the table anyway. Bottom line is, they want to live in a nice country like the U.S., but don't care to really become a part of that country. It's exactly like if I thought your house had a nice living room, a large screen TV, and air conditioning, so I plant my ass down on your nice sofa and hog the space, but don't give a shit about you or your family at all--in fact I look down on you and everyone you're associated with. 

Sorry to sound so negative, but that is EXACTLY what's happening, and it's not just with the Chinese--other minority immigrants kind behave the same way, with varying severity.

Of course, this not not a blanket statement, as there are those who don't behave that way and have integrated themselves into the American society (like me, for example), but people like me sometimes get shit for it. "Oh, why you bother befriending the foreigners? Why are you dating a white girl? Why do you go to those places where there are no Chinese people?" It's sad.


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## José Herring (Jul 20, 2007)

I agree with you 100%. I've seen a lot of that from immigrants of all nations. But, as an American one grows up knowing that everybody in this country is a descendent from immigrants and that one needs to have tolerance and understanding of other cultures even if at the same time that culture hates your guts. It's part of being an American and when ever America as a country gives into intolerance violence erupts for the reason that one of the basic agreements of being an American gets violated. That's why intolerance gets stamped on hard in this country and isn't tolerated by the majority population of any race. For the most part 80% of the people of any race get along just fine. It's the 20% of degraded human beings that actually make the most trouble for the rest of us that really do get a long just fine.

The only point I disagree with is the dating of white women. I mean c'mon. With all the cute little Asian girls running around...why?  *

*(the last comment was a joke and in no way reflects the beliefs or attitudes of any administrator or moderator on the forum. Poster takes fully ethical and legal responsibility for any statements made and is held solely responsible for any antagonism created. Please keep in mind though that poster is part "stupid white", part "lowly Puerto Rican" , part "criminal black" and is married to a white women with a half breed kid. So you shouldn't expect much in the way of intelligent conversation with such a being who obviously has absolutely no regard for the purity of the races.)


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## VonRichter (Jul 20, 2007)

Racism is retarded.

How can you be racist when there are so man fine pieces of @$$ of all different races?

Variety is the spice of a$$.

(Please disregard all of that. I'm drunk alone on Friday night.)


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## zonobono (Jul 20, 2007)

lol

being a moralist, it never occurred to me that one could be against racism for sexual reasons.

good point, mr vonrichter :!: 

:mrgreen:


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Jul 21, 2007)

(Please disregard all of that. I'm drunk alone on Friday night.)

Don't disregard what he said.

He speaks the truth.

I am horribly attracted to anything exotic and uncommon. Foreign women are one of them

Russians, Aussies, Brits, Jamaicans, French Canadians, Brazillians, Asian, Icelantic, etc.

Helllolooooooo? 

It's mainly the accent that gets me. Espeically Aussies, Scots and Russian.

Even better if they are redheads. Seriously, racism sucks.


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## John DeBorde (Jul 21, 2007)

Mike Greene @ Thu Jul 12 said:


> LOL!!! :lol:
> 
> Hey! I want one too! Just yesterday, I was being mean to John DeBorde. He was devastated by it and would probably feel a lot better if he knew I got a warning!



You were mean to me? How did I miss that? 

I have to start paying better attention!






-john


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## Ashermusic (Jul 21, 2007)

choc0thrax @ Thu Jul 12 said:


> But i'm already wearing that... :?



Are your tzis-tzis showing?


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