# What is with the huge dynamic range in TV shows nowadays?



## Puzzlefactory (Feb 27, 2018)

Just watched the new episode of Walking Dead and spent the whole episode constantly turning the TV volume up and down to compensate for the ultra quiet, followed by ultra loud, scenes. 

Seems to be common to many TV shows nowadays. 

Have post production engineers forgotten how to use a compressor?


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## mouse (Feb 27, 2018)

It bugs the shit out of me too


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## storyteller (Feb 27, 2018)

There are a number of movies I've had to do that as well. Drives me bonkers. When you can't hear a voice over the noise floor in a room and have to turn it up, only to have the movie immediately fire off explosions and transition into a loud cue/song. It is rather infuriating. I thought LUFs was supposed to solve that problem. Maybe it has created it? :emoji_angry: Tough to say anymore. Maybe it is just bad mixing.


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## JVitolins (Feb 27, 2018)

When you mix in a large theatre on a big and powerful sound system calibrated at 85dB quiet sounds are perfectly audible and very loud sounds are not loud just powerful. That’s all well and good for theatrical releases, but for typical home systems it is of no use. Simple physics. I do however not understand why movies cannot be remixed for tv and dvd at smaller studios. It specifically the big budget ones, surely they can afford that. 
Walking Dead was mixed at Warner Bros. and the rooms there are ginormous.


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## jtnyc (Feb 27, 2018)

This drives me crazy as well. In Movies and TV shows. From low talking mumbling dialogue to blistering loud sound design. It's becoming the norm really. I bring ear plugs to the movies now, which is a drag because it kinda ruins the full experience of going to a theatre, but I have no choice. The 20 plus minutes of trailers alone is enough to burn my ears out (god I dislike trailers). I'd arrive late if I could, but it's NYC, so seating is often an issue. I think it's just the way things are going. Louder, faster, bigger...


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## Piano Pete (Feb 27, 2018)

I actually have gone into some of the local theatres in my area with an SPL meter; usually if you go talk to management while holding one, they typically are very quick to adjust their levels


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## JVitolins (Feb 27, 2018)

Piano Pete said:


> I actually have gone into some of the local theatres in my area with an SPL meter; usually if you go talk to management while holding one, they typically are very quick to adjust their levels


That’s a good idea. Dunkirk at IMAX here in Dublin was unbearable. Dangerous levels. I had to cover my ears for the best part of the film.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Feb 27, 2018)

My experience is based only on Netflix (I don't have cable) and I'm really happy that newer shows and films are having greater dynamic ranges. You try to play most of the things there at reference level for mixing for TV and it's way too loud. They compress things waaaay too much. I've compared to DVDs and Blu rays and there's been up to a 12dB difference. It's terrible that they do that and destructively affect everything which ruins the audience's experience.

If your system can't handle the dynamic range then turn on whatever normalizing features are available on your device and it's your problem to deal with the awful quality. It's inexcusable to want things to be more compressed.


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## Piano Pete (Feb 27, 2018)

A lot of it is the theatres themselves and not the actual films. I got fed up a few years ago after watching a film that I knew how it sounded at the proper levels and, instead, experienced a jet engine to the face. I always carry custom earplugs with me wherever I go; there is always a pair in my jacket pocket. 

Regarding the TV, not a clue what is happening there.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Feb 27, 2018)

JVitolins said:


> When you mix in a large theatre on a big and powerful sound system calibrated at 85dB quiet sounds are perfectly audible and very loud sounds are not loud just powerful. That’s all well and good for theatrical releases, but for typical home systems it is of no use. Simple physics. I do however not understand why movies cannot be remixed for tv and dvd at smaller studios. It specifically the big budget ones, surely they can afford that.



Pretty much everything released outside of for theaters is remixed in small rooms which feature a variety of playback devices such as an average cheap home theater system with bass management. Those room are significantly quieter than dub stages.

Just look at The Greatest Showman. After everything had already been sent off for distribution, Greg Wells wasn't happy with how it was at the dub and made them go back to remix all of the music for distribution and have it sent out again. Film was already out in theaters for over a month. That Blu ray is going to be completely different from what was played in theaters and as a result, probably a lot louder.

Edit: I found that the Dunkirk Blu ray translated perfectly from theatrical and you get the same relative levels as from IMAX. If your system can't handle that, then that's your problem. 

Interestingly I watched an episode of 13 Reasons Why in a theater that sounded pretty good considering that it was probably mixed in a small stage since it's only intended for Netflix. At the same time, they did have an FOH engineer there and I'm not sure how much he messed with it.


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## dflood (Feb 27, 2018)

So it’s not just me? It’s not so much the relative volume of the speaking parts from everything else, but the clarity. Given the state of technology you just wouldn’t imagine that mixing clearly audible dialog would be an issue today. Despite having about 20 sound presets on my home receiver (none of which improve dialog) and manually boosting and EQing the center channel, I often still can’t hear clear enough speaking parts. This varies greatly between films so I have to assume it’s individual mixing choices. My receiver even came with a room compensation microphone. You know it’s bad when you find yourself turnng on captioning in the same language as the audio.


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## MA-Simon (Feb 27, 2018)

You seem to be missing the original point. (Edit: Was meant for Gerhard)
If a dialogue scene is super quiet and the next scene is a party montage with ridiculous volume levels, It becomes unbearable. It is like with porn, when you have sleeping neighbors, the only setting is "almost mute". It then becomes a game of handling volume spikes.


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## JVitolins (Feb 27, 2018)

MA-Simon said:


> You seem to be missing the original point. (Edit: Was meant for Gerhard)
> If a dialogue scene is super quiet and the next scene is a party montage with ridiculous volume levels, It becomes unbearable. It is like with porn, when you have sleeping neighbors, the only setting is "almost mute". It then becomes a game of handling volume spikes.


Yeah the best example of this dramatic dynamic range is commercial music vs score in movies. Very typical in animated features.


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## Virtual Virgin (Feb 27, 2018)

Yes, I have noticed this. Silicon Valley is bad in this department. The music is absurdly loud compared to the dialog. It doesn't help that their music choices are terrible either :/


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## storyteller (Feb 27, 2018)

Well, it is good to know for me that there is clearly a problem or else this topic wouldn't have bubbled up with these responses. Hopefully Hollywood will figure out their issues. Most of the problems (to me at least) have become obvious in movies made over the last 10 years... and noticeably worse in the last 2 or 3 years. I wonder if it has anything to do with surround fold-downs? I'm not really sure how it can be getting worse without some type of modern tech altering the course a bit.


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## kitekrazy (Feb 27, 2018)

Puzzlefactory said:


> Just watched the new episode of Walking Dead and spent the whole episode constantly turning the TV volume up and down to compensate for the ultra quiet, followed by ultra loud, scenes.
> 
> Seems to be common to many TV shows nowadays.
> 
> Have post production engineers forgotten how to use a compressor?



I watch most stuff in CC these days. TWD to me is a trademark in half assed post production. Plus American actors are bad at enunciation.


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## dflood (Feb 27, 2018)

Puzzlefactory said:


> Have post production engineers forgotten how to use a compressor?


I’m fine with a modest amount of compression if it helps reduce the need to ride the volume controls. We generally set the volume for comfort by referencing the speaking parts, so the other parts of the audio should be calibrated accordingly during mixing. In addition, the supporting audio, however splendid, often needs to be strategically rolled off in order to preserve dialog clarity, even at times when that seems like cheating, such as when two people are magically able to carry on a normal conversation while a jet is taking off near them. That seems to have been forgotten or ignored in some recent productions.


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## gsilbers (Feb 27, 2018)

Puzzlefactory said:


> Just watched the new episode of Walking Dead and spent the whole episode constantly turning the TV volume up and down to compensate for the ultra quiet, followed by ultra loud, scenes.
> 
> Seems to be common to many TV shows nowadays.
> 
> Have post production engineers forgotten how to use a compressor?



i worked on the masters for the 1st few seasons. yes, lots of quiet dialog to sudden huge zombie loud attacks. 

the loudness issue is that it depends on each networks spec. AMC, i believe doesnt have to follow the loudness standards on the CALM act, while the show when it airs in syndication or international networks get new LUFS specs applied based on their own standards. it still stays at around -23lufs i blieve but differences rely in the average or if there is gating involved (for dialog only) one scene vs the whole episode. so if a whole scene is just dialog but then there is a huge zombie attack, then average wise, the dialog stayed the same so that huge fight scene of only 1 minute will be loud AF. 
I remember listening to the 1st episodes of WD and was also surprise how "cinematic" it sounded. the music also helped. 

as for compression.. no, there is no more compressors or limiters as we used to remember that gave it that pumping sound from the loudness wars. now its dolby boxes (LM-600) or plugins to process loudness, which is a mix of small volume automations that averages loud vs soft on the master tracks w/o affecting the actual sound like a compressor might provide. 

the main point of the CALM act and similar in EU is to make sure there is no big transitions between programming and advertising. but within the show i think it can still have ups and downs and try to go for the average loudness, which again... horror shows (same deal when i worked w american horror story but to a lesser extent) the whole point seems to be normal dialog and then that surprise - gotcha- scene. 

with that said... i have been also wondering wtf wtih networks like FX and even main networks that commercials are so much louder than programming. so maybe they have ease off or the FCC has been in -no much regulation mode- for some political reason? not sure. 

in general ive seen most broadcaster do the lufs correctly while streaming services dont have that same regulation so they grab the mix how it is. if amc decided to use cinematic sound of WD then netflix will be the same, while FX network will apply a new loundess mix for their standard.


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## jtnyc (Feb 27, 2018)

If they did a good job balancing the dialogue, music, sound design and scene changes in the first place, there wouldn't be any need for heavy compression overall. I agree that dynamic range is important and heavy compression just sounds bad, but heavy compression is just a bad solution to the original problem, which is having too much dynamic range from scene to scene.

Of coarse the overall loud volume in theatre's is another subject entirely.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Feb 27, 2018)

MA-Simon said:


> You seem to be missing the original point. (Edit: Was meant for Gerhard)
> If a dialogue scene is super quiet and the next scene is a party montage with ridiculous volume levels, It becomes unbearable. It is like with porn, when you have sleeping neighbors, the only setting is "almost mute". It then becomes a game of handling volume spikes.


I use the exact same volume for everything on Netflix and it's never been an issue. I can understand all dialogue (even when I'm sitting back so that my center channel is completely behind my screen) and nothing is ever too loud. The only time I play things at a different level are with Blu rays where I'll normally play them 12dB louder since they're not compressed like Netflix. Again, I have no idea what's going on with cable and how commercials compare to program material so I can't weigh in on that. Now that it seems like new content added to Netflix isn't being compressed, I might be able to turn it up closer to the correct reference level. 

Wanting to destructively reduce the dynamic range so that it sounds good on a crappy TV in a random living room and not waking the neighbors isn't acceptable. If you want to do that then just turn on whatever feature is on your TV to do that.


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## NoamL (Feb 27, 2018)

JVitolins said:


> That’s a good idea. Dunkirk at IMAX here in Dublin was unbearable. Dangerous levels. I had to cover my ears for the best part of the film.



The only competitive advantage theaters have over home systems now is the roller coaster experience. They deliberately mix these films to be a punch in the gut so you walk out saying "That beat the hell out of my home entertainment system!" Except the volumes are dangerously loud and the dynamic range doesn't seem to translate to other systems. Dunkirk was almost loud enough to give people real PTSD.

What gets my goat is when there is good score in the bg at a reasonable volume, but then they duck it down even more for dialog. Ducking music just sounds horrible and obvious to me. I don't know how apparent it is to laypeople. Sure from one perspective it is "the composer's fault" for not writing around dialog. But sometimes, especially on TV, this seems to happen _even when_ the score is sculpted to dialog. There must be some mixers out there who just reflexively pull down the music for dialog.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Feb 27, 2018)

NoamL said:


> The only competitive advantage theaters have over home systems now is the roller coaster experience. They deliberately mix these films to be a punch in the gut so you walk out saying "That beat the hell out of my home entertainment system!" Except the volumes are dangerously loud and the dynamic range doesn't seem to translate to other systems. Dunkirk was almost loud enough to give people real PTSD.
> 
> What gets my goat is when there is good score in the bg at a reasonable volume, but then they duck it down even more for dialog. Ducking music just sounds horrible and obvious to me. I don't know how apparent it is to laypeople. Sure from one perspective it is "the composer's fault" for not writing around dialog. But sometimes, especially on TV, this seems to happen _even when_ the score is sculpted to dialog. There must be some mixers out there who just reflexively pull down the music for dialog.



There are some theaters in Europe that loudness normalize films. I think that's good for theaters that try to modify the playback volume so that it's not properly calibrated and it can be good for some films that are out of control but IMO Dunkirk was at the level it should have been and shouldn't have been lowered. Being crazily loud was the point. I doubt you'll get hearing damage from that. It was just short bursts once in a while from gun shots. Orchestras have higher peaks (they have no hard limit whereas IMAX does). It's not like the film was full of car chases with engines roaring and things blowing up. The dynamic range of having a shot come out of nowhere in a quiet moment is what made it startling. Levels themselves weren't that bad. The big explosions were probably quieter than in other films. When I got the Blu ray I was expecting some wall shaking sub action but it wasn't really there. Much more in a film like Interstellar.


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## jmauz (Feb 27, 2018)

I'm glad I'm not the only one. I particularly notice this on major network shows such as Chicago Fire. Levels seem 'normal' (meaning I don't have to adjust the volume from where it was before while watching something different) during a lower energy scene. Next thing you know the fire trucks are screaming down the road, the M&E levels go up dramatically, and I have to reach for the remote. 

I'm all for a large dynamic range but this is ridiculous. The difference is too large for more compression to be effective...this sounds more like basic level inconsistencies. 

I wonder if this is a problem only on the major networks? Like Gerhard, when I watch stuff on Netflix or on DVD/Blue-Ray this doesn't seem to be a problem.


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## Puzzlefactory (Feb 28, 2018)

Glad I’m not alone. 

Interesting thoughts on the subject. I didn’t realise there was a “mean” volume that they worked by. 

I have noticed it in films too, but I always thought they were mixed for a cinema do could get away with greater dynamic range. But yes, I guess they should do another mix for home viewing (which I’m sure they do thinking about it).


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Feb 28, 2018)

jmauz said:


> I wonder if this is a problem only on the major networks? Like Gerhard, when I watch stuff on Netflix or on DVD/Blue-Ray this doesn't seem to be a problem.


I could be completely wrong since I know nothing about this but maybe the major networks don't really care anymore and brush it off as just another show that anyone will watch while Netflix or a film releasing a disc care more about getting the best quality? Something to do with streaming overtaking the traditional cable model and major networks already having a reputation established that they can just ride on.


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## Puzzlefactory (Feb 28, 2018)

I don’t know, I’ve had it with Netflix too. Just finished watching altered carbon and there was big dynamic range there too.


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## JVitolins (Feb 28, 2018)

Puzzlefactory said:


> I don’t know, I’ve had it with Netflix too. Just finished watching altered carbon and there was big dynamic range there too.


Yes it’s the new loudness standard that allows for greater dynamic range. I believe it’s around 15dB now.


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## JVitolins (Feb 28, 2018)

I recently mixed sound for animated short for my local broadcaster according to the new standard and I learnt that as long as the meter reads -23LUFS at the end of the program you’re good to go. What happens during the program is up to the mixer.


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## JVitolins (Feb 28, 2018)

Puzzlefactory said:


> I don’t know, I’ve had it with Netflix too. Just finished watching altered carbon and there was big dynamic range there too.


An indie feature I scored is on Netflix and I know for a fact it was only mixed once for cinema release and that’s it no special DVD/Blu-ray or TV broadcast mix was ever produced. Low to medium budget productions can barely afford one mix let alone 2 or 3.


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## rocking.xmas.man (Feb 28, 2018)

JVitolins said:


> I recently mixed sound for animated short for my local broadcaster according to the new standard and I learnt that as long as the meter reads -23LUFS at the end of the program you’re good to go. What happens during the program is up to the mixer.


 + -1 dBFS True Peak Limiting.
yeah, only a few broadcasters do have additional limitations or at least recommendations beyond that. releases for television should have an LRA max of 18LU which already is really dynamic mix for listening in your living room. There should be a limitation of the maximum short Term Loudness too for these recommendations to help convenience and intelligibility.


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## benmrx (Mar 1, 2018)

I love it...lol. Whispering dialogue is suppose to be quieter than shooting a bazooka. And yeah, generally you're trying to mix between -24LUFS and -22LUFS, but that's for the entire program. So..., 10 minutes of quiet dialogue means you get more room to get loud for that 2 minute car chase.


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## Greg (Mar 1, 2018)

It's annoying but I think the limiting they use for TV is even worse.


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## rrichard63 (Mar 1, 2018)

Thank you all for the informative comments. Add me to the list of TV watchers concerned about this.

I think there are two different (but probably related) problems. One is dynamic range that works in a large movie theater but is deafening in a living room. The other is mixing for dialog intelligibility, which producers and sound engineers apparently don't do any more. Another is the teaching of enunciation in acting school, which seems to have been abandoned. Okay, that's three problems, but the second and third are so closely related that they might as well be treated as one.

Thank heaven for subtitles. Interestingly, when reading subtitles on the screen, I can generally hear the words as well as read them, even when I can't follow the same dialog without the subtitles.


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## StephenForsyth (Mar 1, 2018)

I like it too.

I've been very impressed with the sound overall on "Star trek: discovery", all the SFX and weapon design is fantastic. (Shame the actual show ain't my cup of tea). 

It's recent film mixes that have been bothersome to me, not television.


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## resound (Mar 1, 2018)

I saw The Greatest Showman in the theater and I hated how it was mixed. The songs were mixed like pop records, super compressed and in your face and they felt 10 times louder than other scenes. The mentality seems to be: louder = more memorable = more soundtrack sales. But really it's just like people shouting over each other but no one is really listening. I left the theater with my ears ringing.


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## Scoremixer (Mar 2, 2018)

rrichard63 said:


> The other is mixing for dialog intelligibility, which producers and sound engineers apparently don't do any more. Another is the teaching of enunciation in acting school, which seems to have been abandoned. Okay, that's three problems, but the second and third are so closely related that they might as well be treated as one.



I have to stand up for my dubbing mixer brethren here and say that these two problems are not closely related... Funnily enough the people mixing do (mostly) have ears, and try and mix appropriately for the medium. The trouble is the rise of mumblecore acting and the directors that allow it past, coupled with the fact that recording and mixing tech is much better these days. That means that lines recorded on set that would previously have been unusable and ADR'd later can now be saved to some degree, and in the pursuit of "verite" that's what directors go for, often at the expense of intelligibility. If the person in charge is making poor decisions, there's not much the rest of the team can do about it, and trust me it does cause dialogue editors and mixers a lot of strife!


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Mar 2, 2018)

resound said:


> I saw The Greatest Showman in the theater and I hated how it was mixed. The songs were mixed like pop records, super compressed and in your face and they felt 10 times louder than other scenes. The mentality seems to be: louder = more memorable = more soundtrack sales. But really it's just like people shouting over each other but no one is really listening. I left the theater with my ears ringing.


I also really didn't like how the songs were mixed. To me it was sort of at a bad in-between where it wasn't quite like a pop record and at the same time didn't fit well with the rest of the sound outside of the songs. I like the mixes on the album but don't know what Brian Lucey was thinking when he mastered it (although maybe the mixes were already in a bad state and he did make it somewhat better, no way of knowing). 

Interestingly Greg Wells felt that it had to sound more like a pop record in the film and wasn't happy with what they had done to his mixes so had to go back and remix it all for the Blu ray.


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## resound (Mar 2, 2018)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> I also really didn't like how the songs were mixed. To me it was sort of at a bad in-between where it wasn't quite like a pop record and at the same time didn't fit well with the rest of the sound outside of the songs. I like the mixes on the album but don't know what Brian Lucey was thinking when he mastered it (although maybe the mixes were already in a bad state and he did make it somewhat better, no way of knowing).
> 
> Interestingly Greg Wells felt that it had to sound more like a pop record in the film and wasn't happy with what they had done to his mixes so had to go back and remix it all for the Blu ray.


I'd be interested to hear how it sound on the Blu ray. If it didn't sound enough like a pop record to him, did he want it even louder and more compressed? I hope not.


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## rrichard63 (Mar 2, 2018)

Scoremixer said:


> I have to stand up for my dubbing mixer brethren here and say that these two problems are not closely related... Funnily enough the people mixing do (mostly) have ears, and try and mix appropriately for the medium. The trouble is the rise of mumblecore acting and the directors that allow it past, coupled with the fact that recording and mixing tech is much better these days. That means that lines recorded on set that would previously have been unusable and ADR'd later can now be saved to some degree, and in the pursuit of "verite" that's what directors go for, often at the expense of intelligibility. If the person in charge is making poor decisions, there's not much the rest of the team can do about it, and trust me it does cause dialogue editors and mixers a lot of strife!


Thank you! This is very helpful inside information.


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## artomatic (Mar 2, 2018)

I’ve often fantasized of having a TV with a built-in compressor/limiter option many times!


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## JVitolins (Mar 3, 2018)

artomatic said:


> I’ve often fantasized of having a TV with a built-in compressor/limiter option many times!


I use apple tv with Yamaha av receiver and both have a feature called “reduce dynamic range” which essentially is a limiter. I have it enabled now at all times.


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## rrichard63 (Mar 3, 2018)

JVitolins said:


> I use apple tv with Yamaha av receiver and both have a feature called “reduce dynamic range” which essentially is a limiter. I have it enabled now at all times.


I believe that this algorithm is built in to the Dolby Digital standard, which calls it compression rather than limiting. I haven't found it very effective.


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## JVitolins (Mar 3, 2018)

rrichard63 said:


> I believe that this algorithm is built in to the Dolby Digital standard, which calls it compression rather than limiting. I haven't found it very effective.


I guess you’re right. It’s more likely a compressor. The one on my Yamaha receiver isn’t particularly effective, but the apple tv is excellent. I haven’t noticed any pumping or ducking effects so far.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Mar 3, 2018)

artomatic said:


> I’ve often fantasized of having a TV with a built-in compressor/limiter option many times!


Most do. It can have a variety of names like a night time mode.


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## yhomas (Mar 3, 2018)

artomatic said:


> I’ve often fantasized of having a TV with a built-in compressor/limiter option many times!


Newer TVs all have this, as do all decent receivers.


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## thevisi0nary (Mar 4, 2018)

This is vindication reading this post. This bothers me so much and I’ve never heard anyone else complain about it.


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## StevenMcDonald (Mar 4, 2018)

Just chiming in to say this problem is 10x more noticeable when you're watching shows after putting a baby to bed. Subtitles are just a way of life for us now.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 4, 2018)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> I'm really happy that newer shows and films are having greater dynamic ranges


 
Me too. The answer is to connect your TV to better speakers, because it's become way too good for the built-in garbage sound systems.

Actually, television has become an awesome medium in every way, from the quality of the shows to the picture and the sound.

Obviously I'm not talking about the garbage, I'm talking about... okay, "Counterpart" and "The Alienist" are just a couple of examples of the level of programming that's really pushing the artform.

And while "Gotham" doesn't amount to a whole lot, that level of production quality wouldn't have been possible before modern HD TVs. I mean, every shot in that show is a work of art.


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## thevisi0nary (Mar 5, 2018)

I’m all for people with nice speakers having the option of a dynamic range. For everyone else it becomes a serious annoyance trying to watch something that goes from near silent to blaring loud several times. Should be some kind of flexible setting.


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