# Does anyone use Notation program for composing and what program if so?



## JPQ (Mar 3, 2021)

Does anyone use Notation program for composing and what program if so?


----------



## mikeh-375 (Mar 3, 2021)

StaffPad here for sketching out ideas....


----------



## muk (Mar 4, 2021)

Not composing per se, but orchestrating. I compose with paper and pencil, and then orchestrate in Sibelius with NotePerformer. NotePerformer is a great help for 'proof reading' my orchestration.


----------



## d.healey (Mar 4, 2021)

Pencil and paper, and Musescore


----------



## stigc56 (Mar 4, 2021)

Dorico.


----------



## Richard Wilkinson (Mar 4, 2021)

Staffpad for theme/motif sketching and orchestration ideas when out of the studio, traveling etc. I love it! Looks like Musescore is massively improving too so I'm interested to see where that goes.


----------



## Markrs (Mar 4, 2021)

I would like to have musescore for iPad, where I can create scores rather than just view ones. For now I will use Notion.


----------



## ZenBYD (Mar 4, 2021)

StaffPad is like being booted into the future, whether or not you're ready for it. I have some friends that swear by it... and not just for sketching, but the whole gig. Its basically like an art program though... great if you can actually paint... terrible if you can't.


----------



## d.healey (Mar 4, 2021)

Markrs said:


> I would like to have musescore for iPad, where I can create scores rather than just view ones. For now I will use Notion.


It runs on my PineTab, would probably run on any other GNU/Linux based tablet too.


----------



## Farkle (Mar 4, 2021)

JPQ said:


> Does anyone use Notation program for composing and what program if so?


Paper and Pencil and/or Sibelius, depending on where I am in the house, hehe. 

Mike


----------



## JPQ (Mar 4, 2021)

ZenBYD said:


> StaffPad is like being booted into the future, whether or not you're ready for it. I have some friends that swear by it... and not just for sketching, but the whole gig. Its basically like an art program though... great if you can actually paint... terrible if you can't.


I actually paint with aquarelle and soft pastels.


----------



## Stringtree (Mar 4, 2021)

Fine-point pen and paper. (there are scribbles, I just like the density of the Pilot V5 extra-fine as opposed to pencil. 

I downloaded Musescore to the iPad yesterday, and quickly deleted it when I realized what it was (reader and social morass with subscription hooks). I'll try Musescore for PC; it looks pretty great. 

With an older iPad, I'd have to lay out $500 or so to get the pEncil, the iPad, and sTaffpad, so that's a ways away. There's always old Sibelius I have for Windows XP. I got pretty good at that. 

It's just different with a keyboard controller and paper.


----------



## d.healey (Mar 4, 2021)

Stringtree said:


> I downloaded Musescore to the iPad yesterday, and quickly deleted it when I realized what it was (reader and social morass with subscription hooks).


I just had a look at this app, it's a case of Musescore not being clear (again). This app appears to link into Musescore.com which is a subscription service/social sharing site. Musescore.org is the site for the score writer/notation software.


----------



## Page Lyn Turner (Mar 4, 2021)

Mechanical (!) pencil, paper and then Finale, same process for 25 years : )


----------



## dcoscina (Mar 4, 2021)

Staffpad——> Dorico
-----> MuseScore occasionally
-----> Sibelius if I wanna use those neat retrograde/composing functions


----------



## JPQ (Mar 4, 2021)

SitilkerX said:


> Mechanical (!) pencil, paper and then Finale, same process for 25 years : )


this sounds do actually use Finale others than notatiion i think you compose pen and paper level. is fine method but not counted here. expect you finish your compostion even mleodic and drum part levels in Finale.


----------



## Page Lyn Turner (Mar 4, 2021)

JPQ said:


> this sounds do actually use Finale others than notatiion i think you compose pen and paper level. is fine method but not counted here. expect you finish your compostion even mleodic and drum part levels in Finale.


I'd say 30% of composition on paper, 70% with Finale. First ideas are a slow process, so, the "slow" pencil helps, then with Finale I speed up. I tried Dorico but not fan of notes input method.


----------



## Dewdman42 (Mar 4, 2021)

JPQ said:


> Does anyone use Notation program for composing and what program if so?



Dorico with NotePerformer.


----------



## Peter Hirdes (May 4, 2021)

The idea of writing music (without paper & pencil) comfortably on the sofa seems attractive to me, too  Anyone experience with Notion and/ or Symphony Pro for iPad? Any recommandations?


----------



## bitbrain (May 6, 2021)

I use MuseScore and StaffPad and love both. MuseScore is a little easier for me in terms of note input because I am still getting used to StaffPad's unforgiving note recognition, but I am trying to transition to StaffPad because its playback is incredible. 

If you are planning on trying out a notation program, try out MuseScore. It is free and plenty powerful already. The playback is mediocre, but they are quickly adding features and the next update is going to include a whole new sequencer plus support for NotePerformer, which will dramatically improve the playback quality of the program.


----------



## mopsiflopsi (May 6, 2021)

Peter Hirdes said:


> The idea of writing music (without paper & pencil) comfortably on the sofa seems attractive to me, too  Anyone experience with Notion and/ or Symphony Pro for iPad? Any recommandations?


I have both Notion and StaffPad. I first tried Notion because it's much cheaper than SP. It is not bad, and I think its handwriting recognition is even better than SP, but sadly it is let down by some perplexing UI/UX decisions. 

Notion converts your scribbling to notation in real time (with a couple seconds of delay), whereas in SP you have to tap outside of the bar to convert it into notation. The problem with Notion's approach is, you'll eventually make a mistake and want to delete what you wrote. You'll have to activate the eraser tool, erase, and go back to writing with the pencil tool again (it's been a while since I used Notion, do correct me if things have changed). It might sound trivial but it gets tiresome really fast. Plus I was starting to feel anxious about scribbling anything as I felt there was a time pressure for finishing my writing before the handwriting conversion kicked in. By contrast, in SP I can take all the time I want deciding what I really want to put down, do it as slowly as I want, easily erase what I wrote without having to tap some extra UI button thing, and have a much more relaxing experience writing. Notion has a much more distinct feeling of "I'm using software to write music" whereas SP is mostly "I'm just writing music."

Plus StaffPad has the clear upper hand when it comes to available sample libraries.

I have no experience with Sym Pro. Hope this helps.


----------



## youngpokie (May 6, 2021)

mopsiflopsi said:


> I have both Notion and StaffPad. I first tried Notion because it's much cheaper than SP. It is not bad, and I think its handwriting recognition is even better than SP, but sadly it is let down by some perplexing UI/UX decisions.


How do you feel about Staffpad writing recognition? Some complaints that it won't recognize or on occasion it would take multiple minutes to make it recognize a symbol... Thanks


----------



## cet34f (May 6, 2021)

Dorico


----------



## mopsiflopsi (May 6, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> How do you feel about Staffpad writing recognition? Some complaints that it won't recognize or on occasion it would take multiple minutes to make it recognize a symbol... Thanks


It works fine if you don't fight it. If you try to enter a full bar of 32nd notes with accents and slurs and other markings all over the place and expect it to get it all right in one go, it probably won't. If I have a really busy bar, I just enter stuff in a few passes and it's all fine. Or if I'm writing a run, sometimes I'll just write all the notes on the same line and then drag them into the correct place after.

When it doesn't recognize a symbol, there's usually another way to do it via other UI interactions. I have the hardest time with dynamics markings (sometimes they are recognized, sometimes they are not). But then I can just tap and hold on the screen for a second underneath that bar and use the iPad keyboard to enter in my "pppp". Fighting the software for minutes because you insist it should be done with the pencil is entirely optional.


----------



## RogiervG (May 6, 2021)

Dorico pro, but i mix and match with daw composing too... (they work nicely together)


----------



## A.Heppelmann (May 6, 2021)

I used Finale for almost 20 years, but switched to Dorico a year ago and haven't looked back. I still may use Finale for pieces that require alleatoric or unusal notation, but future versions of Dorico may even improve in that area too. Lately I've been composing with both Cubase and Dorico open at the same time. I really wish that these programs were designed to work together -- how cool would it be if you could drag a string of midi notes from one program to the other!


----------



## youngpokie (May 6, 2021)

mopsiflopsi said:


> It works fine if you don't fight it.


Makes sense - thank you. The Notion 6 website says their sound packs were recorded at Abbey Road by London Symphony Orchestra. How do you feel about its sound vs Staffpad?


----------



## mopsiflopsi (May 6, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> How do you feel about its sound vs Staffpad?


Hear for yourself:
(this is not my video)


----------



## rudi (May 6, 2021)

A slightly revised version from a previous post of mine on this very topic...

I have tried several products for notation / composition, and here are a few of my experiences (most of those products had generous crossgrades at the time which made it easier for me to venture into all those different tools).

*Notion *- is nearly there for me with the exception of the CC option - it would make it such a good product if it had CC envelope facilities. I love the uncluttered interface, the workman like built in sounds, the fact it has a companion app on iOS, so I can work on that and sync it to my main PC. It has also a good live record facility, and useful things like overdubbing velocities. To me the most valuable part of it is that I can write all my notes into a single bar, and then change their duration values without affecting any other bars. It's such a great option when trying ideas out. I hope they bring out a new version soon. It also integrates with Studio One (see towards the end of this post). Soundwise, it was good for its time, but... times have moved on. You can use VSTs, but the articulation facility is... cumbersome. Hopefully they will revamp it in the next version ...

*Sibelius Ultimate* - was my first encounter with notation - it is a great program, widely used, but I didn't get on with the menu system. It felt too cluttered and unintuitive for my preferences. I also disliked the company's attitude towards upgrades - it felt as if they found ways to charge a lot for not too many changes. It's a shame as it's got some great facilities.

*Dorico Pro* - as I was thinking of a replacement for Sibelius, I avidly (pun intended) followed the blogs of the Dorico team and loved their approach. It's a fabulous program, and gets better and better, especially with the addition of DAW like facilities and their exhaustive expression mapping. It is very focused on producing outstanding notation, and as a result can feel very deep and complex. My main dislike is the team's decision to force a certain way of working for note input etc., which is very keyboard focused. I like using my mouse too much. The DAW like facilties are good, but it feels cramped. It would be great if they had a hybrid mode showing a stave with the CC lanes below. They have a clever secondary (slower) tempo which can be used for live MIDI recording, which is a great idea for difficult or complex passages. I also like the way they let you edit the underlying MIDI without changing the notation - that's a great facility. They keep on improving their product at a great rate. The development team and the users on the forum are very responsive and super-helpful.

*Overture* - this felt like it could be a good medium between DAW and notation, and felt promising. But I found its reliance on a single programmer, albeit a very talended one a bit concerning as there is no backup if they stop working on the program. I also had quite a few crashes and it made me weary of using it.

*Cubase Pro* - a very long time former user. I stopped at 9.5. Its main focus is as a DAW. The notation side of it feels cramped, and not quite as up-to-date as other products. The expression mapping is good, but like so many things in Cubase it feels like you have to dig deep into a series of sub-menus all over the place - I find it hard to concentrate on composing. It's still great at MIDI manipulation.

*Studio One* - is making huge strides, and a more-than-worthy competitor to Cubase. Its notation side is getting good, as is its new mapping facilities aka variations - more user friendly than Cubase IMHO. Notion is part of their product line too, so they have some great resources to call upon (I wish that it worked the other way round too!). If you have Notion you can send your score to Studio One for further DAW editing, CC control etc., but I would much prefer an integrated solution. Also its UI is getting more and more overloaded as they pile on more facilities... it's getting into Cubase territory.

*MuseScore* - I didn't expect much of it when I first tried it, but they are making some great strides too. The interface is being revamped and rationalised. The next version, 4, looks like it's going to up the ante! Things like CC lanes, support for VST etc., will greatly enhance its reach - one to look out for.

*REAPER* - my DAW of choice after migrating from Cubase Pro. Complex, dated interface, but very powerful, and near-endlessly customisable. I love it... but the notation side is not its shining star, and doesn't feel like it's a major priority. With a bit more love and attention the developers could clean-up the output to make it more appealing and importantly readable.

*Logic Pro X* - looks great... I wish it were on Windows!

*Staffpad* - from the videos and reviews I have seen, probably the closest to what my ideal notation program would be. A beautiful, clear interface - probably as close to writing on music manuscript as can be, along a well chosen and integrated set of samples. The way you can add CC envelopes directly on top of the notation is enough to make me want it... but by the time you factor in a new suitable surface/iPad with accompaying stylus/pen it works out rather expensive.


----------



## sinkd (May 6, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> Dorico with NotePerformer.


Can I heart this twice?


----------



## Peter Hirdes (May 14, 2021)

mopsiflopsi said:


> I have both Notion and StaffPad. I first tried Notion because it's much cheaper than SP. It is not bad, and I think its handwriting recognition is even better than SP, but sadly it is let down by some perplexing UI/UX decisions.
> 
> Notion converts your scribbling to notation in real time (with a couple seconds of delay), whereas in SP you have to tap outside of the bar to convert it into notation. The problem with Notion's approach is, you'll eventually make a mistake and want to delete what you wrote. You'll have to activate the eraser tool, erase, and go back to writing with the pencil tool again (it's been a while since I used Notion, do correct me if things have changed). It might sound trivial but it gets tiresome really fast. Plus I was starting to feel anxious about scribbling anything as I felt there was a time pressure for finishing my writing before the handwriting conversion kicked in. By contrast, in SP I can take all the time I want deciding what I really want to put down, do it as slowly as I want, easily erase what I wrote without having to tap some extra UI button thing, and have a much more relaxing experience writing. Notion has a much more distinct feeling of "I'm using software to write music" whereas SP is mostly "I'm just writing music."
> 
> ...


That indeed helps , thanks a lot for Your detailed explanation!


----------



## micrologus (Jul 4, 2021)

MuseScore


----------



## jim2b (Jul 4, 2021)

I love Staffpad!


----------



## Starkman (Jul 4, 2021)

Musescore, as I get back into writing.


----------



## packhorse (Jul 4, 2021)

I play and compose by ear using mostly Spitfire samples and Reaper. Would there be any advantage in me using a notation programme? I have fundamental knowledge of music theory, but would still involve me having to put in a lot of extra learning. Any thoughts please? Thank you.


----------



## Starkman (Jul 4, 2021)

packhorse said:


> I play and compose by ear using mostly Spitfire samples and Reaper. Would there be any advantage in me using a notation programme? I have fundamental knowledge of music theory, but would still involve me having to put in a lot of extra learning. Any thoughts please? Thank you.


Musescore has come a long, long ways. I understand that version 4 will support VSTis, so they are really ramping it up.

For me, I'm old school: write the music with notation software rather than through a DAW. I just can't wrap my head composing through a DAW. (I'm still just learning about DAWS, but I don't expect my mind to change!).

I had Finale in the past, and yeah, it's good, and then there's Sibelius, which is good too; there are pros and cons of both. But Musescore is free and becoming quite the contender, holding its own. No, it's not the go-to for Hollywood and such, but it is more than substantial in its efficiency.

My issue, which is what brought me back to this site just a few days ago, is that Musescore, at the moment, only supports soundfonts, no VST. That means I need to bring what I do into a DAW (and I'm still researching this) in order to attach VSTis to the tracks and then learn to tweak accordingly. 

But for merely writing, Musescore is more than enough to get the job finished. (Oh, and it's free! No strings attached.) And...the good news is, the learning curve is reduced tremendously by a few things. First, there is a must-take course offered on the Musescore site for only $25.00 that walks you through with videos on how to use the program. Very well done. Marc Sabatella, who works behind the scenes with Musescores developers, did a great job producing the course.

Second, there's good support on the Musescore site. There aren't a lot of videos that I have found, but they aren't really needed, what with the handbook as reference and the community for support.

Hope this helps.


----------

