# Back in 1976, the music business looked indestructible...



## JohnG (Sep 17, 2015)

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34268474

"... in 1976, a French polymath called Jacques Attali wrote a book that predicted this crisis with astonishing accuracy. It was called Noise: The Political Economy of Music and he called the coming turmoil the "crisis of proliferation".

Soon we would all have so much recorded music it would cease to have any value, he said. And that sounds pretty accurate to me - I don't remember the last time I spent £10 ($15) on a new album." -- BBC news


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## blougui (Sep 17, 2015)

Attali has always been a prophet of the worst (don't know how you say it in english). I remember him in 1999 during the short war on in Kosovo saying with uttermost serious : "Beware, we've never been so close to a 3d world war". 

That said, i personally don't think it's the amount of disposable music that devalues it but rather that its free access, gratuitous albums and what not, thanks to Napster then... well, to the allowed piracy (providers marketing about speed of download for big files, reinscriptible CD then DVD's, no efficient tax to compensate the loss for the artists...) Of course, there are some more factors to take into account, like cellphones :it's been proven or measured how cultural goods purchases slowed down to allow cellphones plans, especially for young adults, a category of the population on a budget.

- Erik


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## gbar (Sep 17, 2015)

blougui said:


> Attali has always been a prophet of the worst (don't know how you say it in english).



English expressions: prophet of doom, permabear, pessimist.


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## neve (Sep 17, 2015)

Permabear... that's a new word for me. There is always something hyperbolic about futurist predictions and they should be taken with a grain of salt. I agree with blougui that the culture of free has been more of an issue than the proliferation of music. However, I also think that the large amounts of music that are now available really play a part in offsetting the supply/demand balance in the industry. This makes it particularly hard for those trying to break in. Cultural industries keep specializing their investments in very few artists that get most of the market share and distribution channels, all other music makers have to compete with an ever increasing amount of likable available music. I think this trend will continue in the coming decade.

Having said all of this I think that a new economy could emerge around the expanding proliferation of music production. What I mean by this is that now more and more people are finding the joys of making music (and making art in general) and some sectors have hugely benefited from this (Midi-controllers and home studio gear manufacturers, sample libraries developers, etc). The social imaginary of the possibility of selling music is quite prevalent, and even if many newcomers are not trying to make a living from their music, at least they're interested in paying for their gear with the music they make. I see this more and more every day. I think that as this demographic segment grows and their valuation of the music-making process grows, a culture of supporting the music industry could also grow. So, if only less than 2% of the population spends more than 2% of their income in music, this figure could rise to say 10% of the population spending more than 5% of their income in music (these figures are just off the top of my head, I don't know the actual numbers). This could make it possible for more people to actually make a living making music. But first we need to have a large enough demographic valuing the music-making process significantly more than they currently do. 

What I'm trying to say with this is that the overabundance of music, via an expanding demographic sector that loves to make music and can do it with falling production costs, could actually inject life to the music business. The challenge would be to find channels that really compensate creators, and that connects them in ways that enhances the economic exchange between them.


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## D.Salzenberg (Sep 17, 2015)

Interesting topic, and of course the culture of everything being available for free if you know where to look on the Internet is obviously a negative thing, but it's very easy to have rose tinted spectacles when thinking back to the 'good old days ' of the music industry, which were actually in the main only good for the shylocks and shiesters of the record industry and record pluggers and radio djs who controlled the playlists, and thus what music was available for people to listen to and hype up the charts. A few artists who were switched on enough to get fair recording contracts also did well. On the whole it was a tightly controlled network for the purposes of making millions for the big record labels. The Internet has many faults but democratising music distribution and freeing it from the control of record companies is its greatest triumph.


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## rayinstirling (Sep 17, 2015)

The only thing that's changed now is, the middle aged men making all the hits (and money) are mostly anonymous Norwegians


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## Daryl (Sep 17, 2015)

D.Salzenberg said:


> A few artists who were switched on enough to get fair recording contracts also did well. On the whole it was a tightly controlled network for the purposes of making millions for the big record labels. The Internet has many faults but democratising music distribution and freeing it from the control of record companies is its greatest triumph.


Not really the whole story though. The record companies supported many many bands and artists who never actually would have made a good living without that support. They were able to do this by fleecing the artists who did actually make money and sharing out the proceeds. Therefore many more people did well than would have done without the record labels. Almost like a socialist society.

D


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## KEnK (Sep 17, 2015)

D.Salzenberg said:


> The Internet has many faults but democratising music distribution and freeing it from the control of record companies is its greatest triumph.


I'm sorry but from my perspective the internet has "freed" music from having any value at all.
The concept of "not having to pay for music" has also filtered into small clubs

On the article in the o.p.-
This is why I've come to the admittedly odd conclusion that recording technology is the worst thing
that's ever happened to music

k


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## D.Salzenberg (Sep 17, 2015)

KEnK said:


> I'm sorry but from my perspective the internet has "freed" music from having any value at all.
> The concept of "not having to pay for music" has also filtered into small clubs
> 
> On the article in the o.p.-
> ...


In my view piracy which is obviously bad, and the democratization of distribution which is good are two totally different things. The notion of not having to pay to download or stream music is obviously very bad for everyone. How piracy can ever be stopped though seems to be an impossible quest. The genie is out of the bottle, and suing random offenders as a scare tactic is never ever going to work. No idea what the answer is to that. Sadly I don't think there is an answer.
I do think its fair to point out though that not everything was great about the old days either. When everything from who got a record deal, to who got on a radio playlist, to who got hyped into success was controlled by record labels, sure some people got very rich and became very successful. Many more got ripped off, many more never had a chance to get their music heard.


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## KEnK (Sep 17, 2015)

D.Salzenberg said:


> I do think its fair to point out though that not everything was great about the old days either. When everything from who got a record deal, to who got on a radio playlist, to who got hyped into success was controlled by record labels, sure some people got very rich and became very successful. Many more got ripped off, many more never had a chance to get their music heard.


I think you missed my point-
I'm saying that due to steaming, piracy, itunes and youtube, music has been "demonetized".
And that this mentality has filtered into even small local clubs.
I'm not speaking at all about record labels, radioplay, national success, or what have you.
That in itself has always been an illusion perpetrated on the masses in search of illusory "stardom".
None of that has anything to do w/ playing live before an audience of your immediate peers.
That is a very different thing than a small band playing in a local club.
I'm saying that the small local gig concept has also taken a bad hit due to the internet.
An example of the "virtual world" having an adverse impact on the "real".


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## chimuelo (Sep 17, 2015)

I think music in any shape or form is responsible for billions of people enjoying life more.
For me theres no regrets or bad memories as doing what you love always has its highs and lows.

I believe club gigs suffer more from Police targetting patrons at closing hours than the internet.
I left the midwest where club life was the action. 
Clubs held 2500 people and the drinking age was 19.

When I hit LA I scored gigs at Redondo Beach Red Onion where Terry Nunn and Berlin were just signed and were playing No More Words and other MTV hits.
Life was great .Bobby McGees was screaming too. After the gig we surfed at night partied hard and slept on the beach.
Within a few months the blood alcohol level dropped to a new level and the clubs took a hit quickly.
Shut down for weeks at a time for police stings for underaged driking.

I split to Japan with a Polydor artist.
Came back to LA made my old lady quit het job wearing chaps serving drinks and went to Vegas.
Landed on my feet again and never left.

Nightlife in Nevada is legal.
Even my son and his bros cruise the clubs watching bands and djs as they prowl for trim
He came back from LA but loved it.
Difference is house partys are the action in Police States.


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## Vlzmusic (Sep 18, 2015)

I stumbled upon the article few days ago, and my impression, that the main issue of it was the overwhelming number of musicians nowadays, rather than "internet cheapens music". I find that premise true, but I have a feeling that Mr. Attali misses at least one very important point, that not unlike science, the extremely widened crowd of musicians is, evidently, of "very variable" quality. So "really good ones" still float on top, and I fail to see why should they consider another careers as the young fellow suggests in the end.


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## AlexandreSafi (Sep 18, 2015)

In my mind, the more religious-like the bond is between artist and fans/consumers, hence of course the highest "perceived" quality is, the least likely they are going to collectively pirate the product!

If God came out of the skies and said, _"thou shall get my newest Bible Vol. 2 i put out in every store near you, deluxe on Itunes (narrated by my man Jesus)..."_, i wonder how many people would be ready to pirate it eventually as opposed to owning/smelling/touching it themselves, both Fear & Love would probably influence this issue... I guess the obvious thing i want to say is sometimes "Piracy is a sign of selfishness, but in most cases I'm sure it has something to do with complete detachment..."

Detachment from this sacred trinity! Artist<->Fan<->Art!
I know...It's a horrible oversimplified analogy, but which i somehow thought appropriate!

Recording was a catalyst to music, but then "this", meaning of course technology, also happened to books & movies so... Technology by itself is completely neutral, but it's also a deep reflection of how connected we really are or not & where we are at, spiritually that is...
Again in my mind, there's one key component that has to happen in the future in any industries: stopping this separation & encouraging the reintroduction of a deep social interaction between "the watchmaker" and the consumer...

Good people, which I'm sure we all are, don't steal from the ones they truly love in present tense, quite the opposite!
-A.s.-


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## KEnK (Sep 18, 2015)

AlexandreSafi said:


> Recording was a catalyst to music


Hmm...
That, in my view, is the root of the problem.
A "Recording of Music" is a _shadow or symbol_ of the Music.
It is _not_ the Music itself-
Music is played by Human Beings on Instruments in a room somewhere.
When people imagine that a recording (a mere representation) is the actual Music-
Then we end up w/ all kinds of, as you say, "disconnects", "detachments", etc.

People don't even realize that Music is Played by Musician's.
Music is just something that happens when you push a button.
and it's that "disconnect" from the Reality of Music Making
that has brought us to where we are now-
Which is Oblivion.

k


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## AlexandreSafi (Sep 18, 2015)

I agree KenK, and so the challenge is, to me at least, aspiring to a greater connectivity, or inter-connectedness in a tech-world, but I believe this can happen, and in my eyes, through a necessary crisis it eventually will, only when our society will have finally figured out that "money" is actually the great illusion and separation in this world which has driven for centuries people to act, think, feel and live in a way they otherwise wouldn't have!...

Anyways here's a quote from John Williams which i always love to remind myself: _*On music:* “I think ‘the thing’, in my mind, it isn’t the music, and it’s not even the orchestra, and it’s not even the audience: it’s the connection between the three things - the creator, the interpreter, the listener. The link, the nexus, is the issue. And that’s what’s so wonderful about music. That it does connect us and we become, maybe not friends, but we at least know something more about each other. It’s a great gift to us. Music is one of the gifts that we’ve been given from wherever it came from, like language and other things, that’s never going to leave us and it allows us to share something that’s like nothing else. We go before an audience and we are all joined, orchestra, audience, composer/conductor. What a gift.”_


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## blougui (Sep 19, 2015)

chimuelo said:


> I believe club gigs suffer more from Police targetting patrons at closing hours than the internet.



It happened in Rennes, France, in the early 2000's, where I lived. Suddenly, the "prefet" - kind of the über policeman of an administrative area - decided to apply the rules/law with vigor, mostly for political reasons (he was clearly nominated as an opponent to the mayor). Suddenly it became almost impossible to gig in bars because of regulation on noise levels and on "roaddies" (you suddenly had to declare to fiscal administration all the people helping you to gig). In less than a year, a city well known in France for its musical richness in bars (not exactly clubs but rather pubs) became kind of a dead place for that sort of spontaneous musical events.

- Erik


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## chimuelo (Sep 19, 2015)

You'd love Nevada.
I can't wait to move back.
People flock to see musicians perform.

Gangsters use to shake down businesses for protection money.
Now we have politicians using Police as foot soldiers for the sole purpose of revenue creation.
A club we work in St.Louis pays into the Policemens Fund every month for leaving patrons alone.
But then they must pass through 10 more gauntlets and pray they get home without paying 5 grand if alcohol is on their breath.
In Nevada cops are only seen when needed.
Where I am now cops outnumber the Cab drivers.


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## D.Salzenberg (Sep 19, 2015)

Where I live, Birmingham UK, there's still lots of live music, although it is usually either blues bands, covers bands or tribute bands rather than original music, but still some nice small clubs and pubs putting on quality music for an appreciative audience who don't want to be stuck in a nightclub playing wall to wall house music.


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## Dean (Sep 20, 2015)

KEnK said:


> None of that has anything to do w/ playing live before an audience of your immediate peers.
> That is a very different thing than a small band playing in a local club.
> I'm saying that the small local gig concept has also taken a bad hit due to the internet.
> An example of the "virtual world" having an adverse impact on the "real".



Just to add some balance here,..Maybe you should visit Dublin,Ireland,..plenty of live venues here packed to the rafters most night of the weeks.The streets are filled with great musicians busking away,..theres also a bunch of major music festivals held here (and around Europe)every year with huge acts and new artists etc,..these festivals sell out in hours sometimes.Heres an incredible example of that passion for live music in Italy,Cesena (coincidentally its my wifes home town) 
25 million views and the Foo Fighters agreed to bring their show to this tiny little town!..all thanks to the internet/'live' music lovers and small bands. D

D


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## KEnK (Sep 20, 2015)

"Huge" acts and "Festivals" are not what I'm talking about.
This hugeness in itself is an example of the depersonalized disconnect and
lack of intimacy that I'm talking about.

I'm happy that there are still pockets of live music here and there-
but again, my point is being missed.
I didn't say it was "gone", just that it had taken a hit.

Most people will agree that the mp3 download era has devalued music.
What I'm saying is that this has filtered into the "real".
This is certainly true and difficult to admit.

Maybe just as hard to grasp as the idea that what comes out of your speakers is not in fact "a piano".


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## Baron Greuner (Sep 20, 2015)

Britain in 1976 was a f**k**g awful place. I doubt if many of you even remember or were born in 1976, or you were 4 or something. I got married in 1976. 1966 was a lot better than 1976 and the music business was definitely indestructible then. By 1976 we had the entrance of the punk era, but there were still some huge groups around then that were putting out the records.

Don't ever believe what the BBC tell you btw. They are full of shit. 

I went to the Isle of Wight Festival in 1970 and things even then were beginning to disintegrate in the music scene. Just after that festival I think it was, I had a coffee somewhere in Fulham with Jimi Hendrix and all we talked about was photography. I spent a lot of time in London studios back in the 70s, going in during an evening and emerging on another evening and not really knowing what day is was. All over London in those days it was busy and very busy also in the rehearsal studios. I was talking to an old mate of mine the other day who played synthesizer on The Empire Strikes Back for JW and synthesizer on Rambo for JG. Times have really changed since then.

Baron Greuner


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## lux (Sep 20, 2015)

I feel that the nature of the industry itself afflicts the scenario more than proliferation and self-production. In no particular order my thoughts indulge on a few topics:


No more pickers, people with an own taste, history and ambition. Mostly all levels are covered by (young) people obsessed by sending excel reports and attending powerpoint meetings. That's not typical of the entertainment industry but actually a more wide-spreaded disease. I definitely have a preference for experienced managers to young and scared puppies, which seem to be the standard. No more pickers means cloning. And, like with animal cloning, also in music its somehow a deadly root.


Very short time for return on investment. Basically you can't invest on rough but hugely talented artists. They just ask those artists to do the job of refining themselves before to even consider em. Which is, of course, impossible, assumed a rough artist 90% of times keeps being a rough artist without an external help/guide. With today's standards most of the artists we loved would be making a completely different job, having a family and so on. 


No more production teams. Every single guy on earth is highly persuaded he can do all the job himself/herself. Lyricists which are poor melodists, nice melodists with poor lyrics, combine that with arrangers, performers, engineers, press agents and you'll have a big mess where everyone sees just a minimal portion of the whole. Thus producing an unsatisfactory result.


f***ing lazy radio crew. Man this is terrible. I can't even count on my right hand fingers the guys (here in Italy at least) which can provide a decent work in picking songs and artists in a stimulating way. I'm not sure where that comes from, but currently it plays a good role in actual scenario. Radio are still THE music spreader thing. Not Facebook, not Tweeter, even not Youtube. Radios. Good ol' radios.
I'm myself damn lazy to list more than those. But there are many more. And they don't have to do with people producing on their own computers. Which is relevant of course, but imho just one of the usual suspects.


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## KEnK (Sep 20, 2015)

@ Baron Greuner and Lux

Yes- The industry itself has always been the problem.
Rock music became co-opted and corporatized, and it's this "Shell Oil Mentality"
that became responsible for all the ills you speak of.

What was once an organic home grown creativity has become manufactured Styrofoam.
One of the saddest things is, the industry has such a firm grasp on the so-called culture,
that it's even difficult to have a discussion about it.
People don't even realize that they've become apologists for an industry that is stifling
everything about creativity.

Maybe I should make- _"the music industry is not your friend"_ my signature 
k


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## Dean (Sep 20, 2015)

KEnK said:


> "Huge" acts and "Festivals" are not what I'm talking about.
> This hugeness in itself is an example of the depersonalized disconnect and
> lack of intimacy that I'm talking about.
> 
> ...




Those 'huge' festivals also have many small/intimate stages for smaller acts and supporting up and coming bands aswell where everyone can get up close and personal.

Also theres a lot more than just 'pockets of live music here and there'..there are countless live but 'Intimate' venues around Dublin and Europe packed to the rafters most nights.



KEnK said:


> Maybe just as hard to grasp as the idea that what comes out of your speakers is not in fact "a piano".



Speak for yourself I use my upright Beckstein.


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## KEnK (Sep 20, 2015)

Dean said:


> Speak for yourself I use my upright Beckstein.


Good for you! 
Glad you know there's a difference between an instrument and what come out of a speaker.
Surprising how many people think they're listening to a piano (etc) when they use sampled libraries.

Many things about music and life in general are much better in Europe.
This has been true for a long time.
Where I live, not as good as before the mp3 era.
Just a fact of life, not a judgement.

k


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## D.Salzenberg (Sep 21, 2015)

KEnK said:


> @ Baron Greuner and Lux
> 
> Yes- The industry itself has always been the problem.
> Rock music became co-opted and corporatized, and it's this "Shell Oil Mentality"
> ...


That's a great signature. The music industry has never been anybodies friend, anymore than Tesco, WalMart, or BMW have ever been anybodies friend, so anyone who thinks it used to be in the good old days is very misguided.
I still maintain that the Internet has brought lots of good things for composers and musicians as well as bad. Without the Internet and forums such as this one and sites such as soundcloud it would not be possible for new composers to get their music heard and get valuable feedback. In the good old days unless you had connections and lots of luck no-one outside your circle would ever hear your work. I'm not talking about gigging bands here of course.


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## sleepy hollow (Sep 21, 2015)

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." - Hunter S. Thompson

It's a funny quote, that's for sure. Was Thompson right about this? Not really...


edit: I've just seen that the quote is also a link to a reddit discussion. Didn't know that, but I'll leave it that way. That guy on reddit is probably right - why all the negativity? There's no point to it...


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## chimuelo (Sep 21, 2015)

Glad to hear Dublin is still alive.
I can see where some people dislike certain business aspects but one must find his/her niche.
I should run for office.
I can create a job wherever I want and drag along 4 guys.
I was told many times something was not allowed or wouldnt work.
I play old school hard rock with lots of B3 and synth recently.
Was told nobody would like that.
I said fine we get the door?
Now we split the door money and still walk out with payments on gear and ROI.
Musicians just have to be thier own lawyers these days and some Donald Trump skills never hurt.
Show some confidence. Tends to rub off.


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## JohnG (Sep 28, 2015)

chimuelo said:


> Show some confidence. Tends to rub off.



Very true. Some clients will treat you like a house painter if you let them. "No, not THAT shade of blue, try another one. No, red -- I meant red, not blue. RED!!! Obviously, RED!!!!...." etc.


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## Daryl (Sep 28, 2015)

JohnG said:


> Some clients will treat you like a house painter if you let them. "No, not THAT shade of blue, try another one. No, red -- I meant red, not blue. RED!!! Obviously, RED!!!!...." etc.


HAHAHAHA. I was told to "make it more purple" once. And I succeeded. 

D


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## doctornine (Sep 28, 2015)

I can't help but quote some LCD Soundsytem :

I'm losing my edge. 
I'm losing my edge. 
I can hear the footsteps every night on the decks. 
But I was there. 
I was there in 1974 at the first Suicide practices in a loft in New York City. 
I was working on the organ sounds with much patience. 
I was there when Captain Beefheart started up his first band. 
I told him, "Don't do it that way. You'll never make a dime." 
I was there. 
I was the first guy playing Daft Punk to the rock kids. 
I played it at CBGB's. 
Everybody thought I was crazy. 
We all know. 
I was there. 
I was there. 
I've never been wrong. 

I used to work in the record store. 
I had everything before anyone. 
I was there in the Paradise Garage DJ booth with Larry Levan. 
I was there in Jamaica during the great sound clashes. 
I woke up naked on the beach in Ibiza in 1988. 

But I'm losing my edge to better-looking people with better ideas and more talent. 
And they're actually really, really nice.


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