# Staffpad -- wait for a Mac version



## SeattleComposer (May 4, 2015)

I plunked down over $1,000 on a Surface Pro specifically to use Staff Pad. http://www.staffpad.net The skinny: gawd, I wish Mac would make a version that works with Logic. Someone please tell me that is the future.

Here is my humble opinion review: 

I was really excited by the idea of this software. Being a mac guy, I hoped that the new Windows would work better than the old Windows. Sorry to find, no. Windows' proclivity to stop and require re-starting is a real creative workflow killer. And it makes Staff Pad suffer. Horribly. I hate you, Microsoft.

There are good points and bad points about the Staff Pad program itself. 

It has a few bad glitches. For example, I downloaded a version of Olympus voices specifically available for the program. On closing and reopening my composition, Staff Pad had lost the voices and replaced the soprano with a flute. Meh. And I could not find any way to change the instrument out and reload the soprano. So that work was lost. 

The program can import/export midi. However, a fundamental handicap is that Staff Pad has no way of recognizing what instruments your DAW-created MIDI lines should be assigned to if you try to import a composition. That limits the usefulness of Staff Pad for a composer who wants to use it to write something for even a medium-sized template in a DAW. I had hoped that with this program, I could take a composition out of my DAW and futz around with it on the pad. But that is not practically doable.

One could, however, craft a few simple and perhaps beautiful lines to export into your DAW. For example you could work with four voices with counterpoint and then export the MIDI into your DAW and be able to recognize what voices go where, no problem. One super nice thing about Staff Pad is that it looks and feels very natural. And the pen is very natural and easy to work with: for example, I could easily move around the inner voices by dragging around notes with the pen and see very clearly what I was doing in terms of theory and intervals etc. And then I could play it back quickly and hear it. Writing percussion lines on Staff Pad was also very clear and deliberate work which I found felt much more musical than pounding drum sounds on a pad or keyboard and then working in a piano roll to quantize. 

It would be great if in the future, Logic or some other DAW incorporated something like a Staff Pad into its notation. For now, in spite of delivering a new kind of technological magic in notation, Staff Pad on the Windows Surface Pro is a very expensive and unreliable toy in beta version.


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## Hanu_H (May 4, 2015)

I wish they make Android version before Mac...

-Hannes


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## Stephen Rees (May 4, 2015)

SeattleComposer @ Mon May 04 said:


> Writing percussion lines on Staff Pad was also very clear and deliberate work which I found felt much more musical than pounding drum sounds on a pad or keyboard and then working in a piano roll to quantize.



I find this to be true of writing in notation over writing straight into a DAW for just about anything. Separating the 'composing' of a piece completely from the 'production' of a piece is a far more gratifying way to work for me. At least, for now...

Sorry Staffpad hasn't worked out for you. I hope they improve the software to the extent that it can be useful and enjoyable for you to use. It certainly is intriguing and I admire you for jumping in with both feet and giving it a go


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## Øivind (May 4, 2015)

Hanu_H @ Mon May 04 said:


> I wish they make Android version before Mac...
> 
> -Hannes



NotateMe seems like a decent option, at least until they make an Android version of Staffpad, if they do.



@SeattleComposer: why do you have to re-start Windows all the time? Is there something that is crashing Windows? 
I reboot either once a week or every other week when security updates needs me to, but thats about it.
I am getting a Surface Pro 3 as well soon, and also getting Staffpad for it, but i might have to reconsider if there are
major problems using the device.


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## SeattleComposer (May 4, 2015)

I am willing to assign some of the blame to my being a fish out of water as a long time Mac user trying to use Windows. I personally hate the interface with all its windows cluttering the screen and advertising at me. But apart from that, crashes are crashes and they immediately began to happen with the surface pro. And the weird re-assignment of instruments is definitely a Staff Pad glitch and not user error. 
Keep in mind that this is a brand new Surface Pro and the ONLY program that I added to it was Staff Pad. So it should not crash, but it did. Staff Pad closed frequently. I would re-open, it would close. Pretty frustrating when you are trying to be creative.
I plan to finish the tutorials that came with Staff Pad and see if there are enough positives to outweigh the negative. If not, I will try to return the Surface Pro and go back to printing out scores from Logic. Which, by the way, has a not-so-shabby score editor with features that do not exist in Staff Pad. My personal nirvana would be if Mac would create a big touch screen with a pen that could support Staff Pad and if Logic would adopt that tech into its score editor.


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## dcoscina (May 4, 2015)

I'm sure those fine folks at PResonus are working on more Notion updates that will eventually include this feature being able to write right to notation. 

Sorry- I am biased.


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## Øivind (May 4, 2015)

SeattleComposer @ Mon May 04 said:


> I am willing to assign some of the blame to my being a fish out of water as a long time Mac user trying to use Windows. I personally hate the interface with all its windows cluttering the screen and advertising at me. But apart from that, crashes are crashes and they immediately began to happen with the surface pro. And the weird re-assignment of instruments is definitely a Staff Pad glitch and not user error.
> Keep in mind that this is a brand new Surface Pro and the ONLY program that I added to it was Staff Pad. So it should not crash, but it did. Staff Pad closed frequently. I would re-open, it would close. Pretty frustrating when you are trying to be creative.
> I plan to finish the tutorials that came with Staff Pad and see if there are enough positives to outweigh the negative. If not, I will try to return the Surface Pro and go back to printing out scores from Logic. Which, by the way, has a not-so-shabby score editor with features that do not exist in Staff Pad. My personal nirvana would be if Mac would create a big touch screen with a pen that could support Staff Pad and if Logic would adopt that tech into its score editor.




Thanks for the feedback  I have read about some bad batches of Surface Pro 3's, overheating issues and the likes, even when just 
reading e-mail. I can understand the frustration. I think i will try it the same way you are, test the Surface Pro 3 with staffpad and see
how it works out, and return it if it doesn't 

Thanks again.


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## Mikedunn (May 4, 2015)

SeattleComposer @ Mon May 04 said:


> It would be great if in the future, Logic or some other DAW incorporated something like a Staff Pad into its notation. For now, in spite of delivering a new kind of technological magic in notation, Staff Pad on the Windows Surface Pro is a very expensive and unreliable toy in beta version.



Yay, thanks for the feedback also.

I too could not resist the lure of writing music in the way I grew up with, but with a 'digital interface' to it. I have a Surface Pro 3 ordered and on its way specifically to put staffpad in and play. I have been watching Daniel Spreadbury's progress with his Notation programme for Steinberg and will be checking that out when it's ready, but no sign of being able to write with a pen for that, so I HAD to give this a try. I truly hope I have a better experience than you ! Though I did not see it as being more than a portable note(!)pad to jot down ideas from the top of a hill/wherever and transfer them to my DAW, or working on arrangement ideas on the go.

It's a massive development and it's got to be worth a try I reckon. Sibelius (which I use currently) does not really inspire me as a program to compose in, though it's fine for Notation in general, if a bit clunky sometimes. 

What spec Surface did you go for ? (I have gone for i5 8 gig Ram)

Best wishes,

Mike


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## Daryl (May 4, 2015)

I've been using my Surface Pro for over a year now. Can't remember it crashing. Ever. However, I don't use StaffPad...

D


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## Mikedunn (May 4, 2015)

SeattleComposer @ Mon May 04 said:


> It has a few bad glitches.



I just read on the Staffpad site they released an update today, so you may find an update solves your crashing SeattleComposer :?:


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## SeattleComposer (May 4, 2015)

I bought the cheapest Surface Pro 3 I could, intentionally because the only thing I intended to use it for was Staff Pad. $799 at Best Buy. 4 gigs. But still. If the only thing I am running is Staff Pad, I should not have a problem. I will be interested to hear about others' results! 

It really IS a magical device for writing.


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## gyprock (May 4, 2015)

When I first saw the demo videos of StaffPad I just had to have it so I plonked down some cash for a Surface Pro 3 i5 with 8GB and 256GB drive. I didn't go for the i7 because I think it's overkill and I had heard that it overheats but this could just be web surfing hearsay. Anyway, I couldn't be happier with my purchase.

I'm basically a Win PC guy but with Apple fun stuff i.e. iPhone, iPAD, AppleTV. I've never ventured to the Win 8 OS until now so it took me a little bit of tinkering around to get used to the idea of an IOS style of app system grafted on top of a traditional OS. So far it's pretty cool and I've discovered some things that I wish the iPAD had.

All in all, StaffPad is amazing and I'm so glad I made the investment. I did have to learn some strategies and I've emailed the developers with some input and found some bugs. They were very responsive and I got feedback the same day.

I think StaffPad is great for sketching stuff. I've been using it to input some guitar compositions of mine that have been in my head for years but never on paper. Fingerstyle guitar requires 2 voices to be properly notated so I've given StaffPad quite an exhaustive test in this area. So far I've been very happy and will use it rather than a pencil and paper.

Getting the notes into StaffPad with the correct rhythm and pitch has been my main aim rather than sophisticated layout. For the latter I have exported to MusicXML and then imported this into Sibelius 7.5. Basically I had no problem although the guitar staff was an octave too high because Sibelius interpreted the staff as concert rather than a transposed score. I'm sure this can be fixed in the MusicXML export.

So in summary, I think this is the future of notation input, at least for traditional paper and pen composers. Whether the hardware technology equivalent of the Surface Pro will ever be available for the MAC or iPAD is another question although the way the competitive market works, I'm sure Apple will have something in the works. After all, it's all about extracting money from my hip pocket and Apple are masters at that.


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## vrocko (May 4, 2015)

There is A Kawai app that I wasn't aware of for ios, here is a video walthrough of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=7ctpQGZkQi4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?&amp;v=7ctpQGZkQi4)


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## cmillar (May 5, 2015)

Apple has taken out some pen / tablet / handwriting copyrights over the last year.

So, it's just a matter of time. Maybe on a new iPad Pro according to some reports.


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## tmm (May 6, 2015)

Wow, this looks incredible. Agreed, can't wait for an iPad version... though I've been considering a fully loaded SP3, too.


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## scientist (May 6, 2015)

stylus input on an ipad is awful and not nearly accurate enough for decent notation input - hence the kawai app's need to zoom waaayyyy in to input legible notation.

from their own site:



StaffPad said:


> StaffPad couldn't exist without a great pen experience. The iPad lacks the screen technology which makes an app like StaffPad possible. There's many other technical reasons why StaffPad wouldn't be as useful or as functional on iPad, and we felt that the only way to really make this app shine was not to compromise.



and as a DAW plugin... you'd need a wacom cintiq for it to be worthwhile, right? i'm guessing the "uses a DAW, owns a cintiq, wants notation input" market is pretty damn small. even smaller than the number of people who own a surface pro (zing!).


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## oneder (May 6, 2015)

Do you get audio feedback when you input the notes meaning you can hear them as you write them in?


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## Kardon (May 6, 2015)

It has been reported that StaffPad works very well (though not 100%) on a Windows 8.1 PC with the $99 Wacom Intuos Pen & Touch small tablet. I may upgrade my old Wacom Bamboo to try this. The StaffPad site states " any Windows 8.1 device with active pen and touch support should work just fine.". Here's the post on the Sibelius Blog referencing this setup.

http://www.sibeliusblog.com/news/staffp ... ment-29640


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## Mikedunn (May 6, 2015)

oneder @ Wed May 06 said:


> Do you get audio feedback when you input the notes meaning you can hear them as you write them in?



You can play them back, as in Sibelius, when they are written yes, but they don't sound AS you write them if that's what you mean.

My surface pro (i5 8 gig Ram) has not crashed yet with Staffpad in from early this morning, so I am hopeful. This is a well funky piece of kit and it can only get better. So, yes, one could wait for an apple/ios/mac/ipad version but you might go green with envy seeing what us lot can now do in the meantime ~o) 

Very very impressed.


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## jamwerks (May 6, 2015)

It looks like Sibelius 8 will have all the Staffpad features.


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## ed buller (May 6, 2015)

oh i wish. You won't be able to enter music with a pen


e


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## SeattleComposer (May 6, 2015)

Jamwerks -- do you have a link to that info on Sibelius 8?

I am keeping mine, btw. In spite of the host of problems with it and the lack of features I had hoped for, the magical ability to write notation with a pen and drag notes around and save the work as midi and hear it -- that makes it worth keeping, warts and all. It is NOT useful or reliable enough to incorporate into any part of my work flow -- just a convenient way to sketch out musical thoughts when I'm on a ferry or a plane. I will still mostly compose at the keyboard and use an orchestrator when needed. But for fleeting thoughts in my head, in bed, in a plane -- this thing is going to be magical. If I was on a tight budget, there is no way I would buy a Surface Pro for this software. It is a luxury, not a work horse. Hats off to the innovators. I look forward to the future!


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## fratveno (May 6, 2015)

oneder @ Wed May 06 said:


> Do you get audio feedback when you input the notes meaning you can hear them as you write them in?



Not as you (hand) write, but you can tap each notehead with the pen as soon as they are engraved, to hear their pitches.


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## Mikedunn (May 6, 2015)

SeattleComposer @ Wed May 06 said:


> Jamwerks -- do you have a link to that info on Sibelius 8?
> 
> I am keeping mine, btw. It is a luxury, not a work horse. Hats off to the innovators. I look forward to the future!



Glad to hear it ! 

Received this 10 AM. By lunchtime I had learnt to get it to recognize my writing, done a tutorial or two, then messed around with a few strings and this evening exported a midi file to my DAW, then rendered it out, hastily and not very seriously just to show myself it all works.. here's the result (no serious critiques thanks) https://soundcloud.com/m-l-dunn/staffpaddy

I think this is an awesome development and just the beginning. I too doff my cap to David William Hearn, very impressed. So many things like this (that don't even have pen input) don't draw you in. For me, this does. :D


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## proxima (May 6, 2015)

It will be very interesting to see if competition from the Surface encourages Apple to include a real digitizer screen for the ipad and encourage pen/stylus use. Steve Jobs seemed very against it, but this sort of application is really interesting.

I gave up trying to use any handwriting apps on the ipad a long time ago. My sister in law got a Jot Script pen last year for more accurate writing, but because there are no third-party drivers for iOS it only works in applications that explicitly support it. It still didn't seem to be quite as accurate as a real Wacom-style digitizer though.

Meanwhile, I'll stick with Notion.


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## jamwerks (May 6, 2015)

There was a thread here less than a month ago, with a video. Apparently has the same handwriting recognition capabilities.


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## kdm (May 6, 2015)

I was thinking of getting an iPad or MacBook a couple of weeks ago, but the Surface Pro 3 with StaffPad convinced me to think otherwise - for me it was well worth the investment (over an iPad). 

StaffPad is a work of genius. It runs very well on my i5 SP3 - responsiveness of the pen (and SP3 in general) is the best I've tried (including Samsung, etc). This might replace paper and pen for me. The markup layer is brilliant - writing notes over the top of your score, or just handwriting a quick sketch before notating, and having that layer to toggle on/off or erase independently is very useful. 

Then having a full fledged i5 PC in a tablet makes this a powerful combination. I haven't seen any of the SP3 problems the OP posted. It's fast, responsive and stable. (You might want to look into turning off sleep mode, and auto-updates. Stupid defaults that MS leaves for you to figure out, but easy to change).


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## karmadharma (May 12, 2015)

I would think that other convertibles (say the really nice spectre x360 with the dell active pen) should work fine, and might have better performance than the surface 3 (and larger screens)


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (May 29, 2015)

I asked David about which model to buy. He said buy the i5, as the i7 constantly overheats and throttles.

SO far the experience is fine, admittedly I haven't been using Staffpad that much now.

But as far as other devices, the Surface has the edge when it comes to the stylus tech. It's not just touch, but LED activated. So it's pretty accurate.

Been trying to see if a higher end flippable ASUS would work, but the touch tech is unique to the surface. No idea of Staffpad would work well with non-activated stylus.


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