# Orchestration: Where do I even start?



## Last-Echo (May 30, 2019)

I know the basics of music theory, i.e (reading notation, time signatures, etc). But I have never worked with an orchestral track before. 
To put it in context, I am an aspiring film composer. I want to learn how an orchestra works, but have no clue where to even begin. I have a hard time learning from things that don't give me a practical example of what it's trying to teach. Are there any website, books, courses, etc that you know of which teach in a way that even a beginner could understand? 

Also, I am still in the process of learning composition, i.e (chord and melody progressions and how one chord might lead to another, etc) So go easy on me with the level of complexity when choosing these. :D
Thank you.


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## muk (May 30, 2019)

Samuel Adler's 'The Study of Orchestration' is a classic. It comes with a cd and a workbook. In addition, listen to a lot of music while following it in the score. On imslp.net you'll find tons of free scores (bascially everything where the composer's death has been more than 70 years ago, meaning it is no longer under copyright). For example, download the scores for all the Beethoven symphonies. Then listen to them following the scores. For the parts you like the best, go back to the score and read very carefully how they have been orchestrated. It's fun and quality time spending half an hour listening to a symphony like this.

Then, go to orchestral concerts regularly. If you can, try to attend rehearsals of a local orchestra. Maybe there is a student orchestra in your region, and you know somebody who plays there? Ask if you can attend a few of their rehearsals and listen quietly. Maybe you can make yourself useful and help preparing the seats and music stands before the rehearsal in return. Or maybe there is a good youth or amateur orchestra you could ask. Attending rehearsals will be enlightening, as only there you'll learn how orchestras work behind the scenes. This will be priceless knowledge for any composer.

One final idea, search youtube for videos of famous conductors rehearsing with orchestras. There are a few with Nikolaus Harnoncourt and Bernhard Haitink. I'm sure there are lots more. Again, follow these with a score/scores of the piece(s) they are rehearsing.

That's half of what you can do to learn how to orchestrate well. The other half is just doing it. Orchestrate, orchestrate, orchestrate. Write music, orchestrate it, and have somebody correct it (if you don't know anybody you can post it on this forum, for example). Noteperformer is a valuable tool that will give you aural feedback of what you wrote. While it doesn't sound like a real orchestra or even a good mockup, it is very good at making mistakes in orchestration clearly audible.

Another trick: go to imslp, choose an orchestral piece by Mozart, and download the piano reduction only. From the piano reduction, orchestrate 8 or 16 bars (without having looked at the full score!). Then download the full score and compare how Mozart orchestrated the same 8 or 16 bars. I promise that you will learn a lot from this exercise. Repeat as often as manage, and progressively choose later composers music as well.

While orchestrating I found this reference chart to be useful for quick checks of ranges and instruments capabilities:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wqepbz9jx8555ap/InstrumentReferenceChartv6.1.zip?dl=0 (chart not made by me, I'm just linking to it)

If you need more indepth information, you can always read up in Adler about a particular instrument or technique.


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## borisb2 (May 30, 2019)

muk said:


> Another trick: go to imslp, choose an orchestral piece by Mozart, and download the piano reduction only. From the piano reduction, orchestrate 8 or 16 bars (without having looked at the full score!). Then download the full score and compare how Mozart orchestrated the same 8 or 16 bars. I promise that you will learn a lot from this exercise. Repeat as often as manage, and progressively choose later composers music as well.


thats a great tip!!


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## muk (May 30, 2019)

borisb2 said:


> thats a great tip!!



Yes, it is doubly helpful if you don't have a teacher or tutor to look over your orchestrations.


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## Leon Willett (May 30, 2019)

I'm gonna hit this later


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## rlundv (May 30, 2019)

muk said:


> Samuel Adler's 'The Study of Orchestration' is a classic. It comes with a cd and a workbook. In addition, listen to a lot of music while following it in the score. On imslp.net you'll find tons of free scores (bascially everything where the composer's death has been more than 70 years ago, meaning it is no longer under copyright). For example, download the scores for all the Beethoven symphonies. Then listen to them following the scores. For the parts you like the best, go back to the score and read very carefully how they have been orchestrated. It's fun and quality time spending half an hour listening to a symphony like this.
> 
> Then, go to orchestral concerts regularly. If you can, try to attend rehearsals of a local orchestra. Maybe there is a student orchestra in your region, and you know somebody who plays there? Ask if you can attend a few of their rehearsals and listen quietly. Maybe you can make yourself useful and help preparing the seats and music stands before the rehearsal in return. Or maybe there is a good youth or amateur orchestra you could ask. Attending rehearsals will be enlightening, as only there you'll learn how orchestras work behind the scenes. This will be priceless knowledge for any composer.
> 
> ...


Wonderful advice!


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## Markus Kohlprath (May 30, 2019)

In short: Forget about the fast shortcut


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## Parsifal666 (May 30, 2019)

muk said:


> Samuel Adler's 'The Study of Orchestration' is a classic.



It's the one I default to, though there are other very good books on the subject like the Rimsky-Korsakov and Forsythe (there's also the very Wagnerian Strauss book by Berlioz, but if you're not into the two Dicks you might not get as much out of it), the Adler is a bankable go-to.

I never liked the CD/Workbook that came with the actual book, and thank Bubs for the internet today, because the book has a lot of musical examples you can look right up (whereas I used to have to dig through my CD collection).

The Adler is not only seconded by me, but strongly recommended as the cream of the crop.


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## DANIELE (May 30, 2019)

Scoreclub courses, very informatives and practical ones, you should look at them because they have always practical examples next to every theory step.


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## Gil (May 30, 2019)

Hello!
Thomas Goss's youtube channel has many videos about orchestration, from beginner to advanced (look at playlists):
https://www.youtube.com/user/OrchestrationOnline
It has also a site with blog articles and a facebook page where many people are corresponding about orchestration:
https://orchestrationonline.com/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/278568792265515/
Hope that helps!
Gil.


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## Last-Echo (May 30, 2019)

muk said:


> Samuel Adler's 'The Study of Orchestration' is a classic.


Thank you kind stranger, for such a detailed advice! I will be looking into all of these, and surely learning the craft soon enough.


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## AllanH (May 30, 2019)

The fourth edition of Adler provides the examples on an associated website, so the newer edition no longer has a CD.


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## AllanH (May 30, 2019)

To the OP: Adler is imo the best place to start, but it is a "study book" not a book you "just read" and then get it. The value of Adler is that he provides instrument-specific information illustrated in context with many examples. I expect to be going back to Adler for the next many years. 

Final recommendation: Find music and orchestrations you like and try to decipher it.


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## bcarwell (May 30, 2019)

And don't forget the Rimsky-Korsakov Garritan free online course:

http://northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/77-Principles-of-Orchestration


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## joebaggan (May 30, 2019)

AllanH said:


> The fourth edition of Adler provides the examples on an associated website, so the newer edition no longer has a CD.



Right, having the associated 4th edition website means you can go straight to the streamed audio examples and listen along to the examples in the book, which makes things a lot easier. This book isn't cheap but probably worth it.


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## BenG (May 30, 2019)

In addition to all that has been mentioned already, I highly recommend working at the piano to start. The general range, timbre, voicing, etc. should all transfer to orchestra seamlessly. For example, say you've written a soft, heartfelt melody in the upper range with some quiet loses chords beneath. 

- What orchestral instrument sounds soft and warm there? Obie, Flute? 

-What can support that theme quietly, in the middle range and blen well? (Strings?)

Combining instruments on a single line or part will also give you a hybrid sound that can shift tone depending in context and arrangement.


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## Last-Echo (May 30, 2019)

Thank you all for the advice you give! It is highly appreciated.


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## fixxer49 (May 30, 2019)

Parsifal666 said:


> there's also the very Wagnerian Strauss book by Berlioz, but if you're not into the two Dicks you might not get as much out of it


 True. But, it certainly has the greatest foreword of any of the other books mentioned here . lots of [quotable/actionable] concepts that are highly applicable to this discussion...


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## bryla (May 30, 2019)

Start with OrchestrationOnline's introduction series and go from his recommended score studies.


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## JohnG (May 30, 2019)

Adler's book and website. By far the best, but I guess I'd even more strongly urge you to attempt a couple of pieces -- even excerpts -- and arrange them for players and have them record them for you. Even a feeble recording / performance will teach you things you will not learn online or out of a book.

If you live in a big city you could take an orchestration class, maybe at an "extension" or "adults education" class.

You can maybe do some online stuff; some of it might be good.

Classic ensembles would be string quintet, brass quintet, woodwind ensemble (like flute, oboe, clarinet, bassoon). I it's easier to learn by hearing things you really thought through.


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## ism (May 30, 2019)

I've lookout at Adler number of times (and rather longingly). I'd love to take a course using this as a text, but it just doesn't strike me as a reasonably to start for anyone outside of a fairly intensive formal setting ... anyone have any experience in a self study of Adler? (Anyone who didn't already have a degree).


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## paularthur (May 30, 2019)

Adler & Rimsky are very formal. You could start with this - https://orchestrationonline.com/product/100-orchestration-tips/ or this - https://www.alexanderpublishing.com...Tone-Color-Chart---PDF__Spec-01-Download.aspx


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## Reid Rosefelt (May 30, 2019)

I'm looking into getting the Adler 4th edition, but from my reading, the online portion costs $40 every 180 days. True? $80 a year forever seems steep considering you used to be able to pay once for the CD. 

They don't offer the option of CD with the new edition and nearly all used copies of earlier editions state that they don't have the CD.


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## jmauz (May 30, 2019)

Walter Piston's orchestration book is a great reference to have around the studio. I usually have it on the desk if I'm doing a full-blown orchestration mockup.


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## David Cuny (May 30, 2019)

With the caveat that I don't score films... 

Back in 1960, Frank Skinner wrote a book called _Underscore_ that details the process of scoring a film. The film is referred to as _"The Irishman", _but apparently is actuall _"The Fighting O'Flynn"_.

It's obviously _way _out of date, and might be hard to track down. I was able to find it in my library Link+ system.

The thing I really like about it is that it first presents the scores in 4 staff format, laid out as melody/countermelody/bass/harmony. These are then followed by full score arrangements, showing the full orchestration.

I found that helpful in clarifying how a composer thinks about writing for an orchestra. Or at least how Frank did. 

Plus, it's a good read.


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## visiblenoise (May 30, 2019)

bcarwell said:


> And don't forget the Rimsky-Korsakov Garritan free online course:
> 
> http://northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/77-Principles-of-Orchestration


Seconding this as a quick way to get started. When I initially wanted to get into this stuff, I just went over most of the sections there just to get an awareness of what people think about when orchestrating, then experimented with a sample library on my own musical ideas. Just reading very simple things like what relative register each instrument is supposed to occupy or what character an instrument has when it's playing high or low, and being able to simulate what happens when you break those guidelines in a DAW, was quite helpful to me.


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## JohnG (May 30, 2019)

anything that gets you going is ok in my book.

That said, both Kennan and Rimsky-Korsakov are overly cautious for anyone who has (or hopes to have) studio players from London / Los Angeles etc. available.

You can still learn a lot from Rimsky-Korsakov and it's free, which can be a plus.

However...

...your _time_ is not free. So I still recommend Adler first and last for someone who wants to be a professional and not just a hummer (not that there haven't been some awesome hummers). Adler's ranges and materials aim at a professional level of player ability, not just "real good college players." Some of the other stuff is like learning it half-baked; you would still eventually have to get to the other level if you want -- to get to the other level.

To answer one question from @ism , I did self-study with Adler. With the audio, you can readily absorb it with a relatively rudimentary knowledge of reading notes. 

That said, if you find in reading Adler that you can't read music / bass clef or something, then suggest you learn it. Because unless you either are rich (and can hire expertise) or have the chops and good fortune to land straight into the A list of composers in Hollywood (so someone _else_ is hiring that expertise), it helps immeasurably to know this stuff. 

(get it? "im_measur_ably"?)


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## Last-Echo (May 30, 2019)

JohnG said:


> if you find in reading Adler that you can't read music / bass clef or something, then suggest you learn it.


Hmm I see. I am descent with reading music, not quiet the sight reading level. But I know what's what. Since you mentioned it, would you consider it to require an advanced/itermediate level of music reading to be able to digest?


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## JohnG (May 30, 2019)

Last-Echo said:


> Hmm I see. I am descent with reading music, not quiet the sight reading level. But I know what's what. Since you mentioned it, would you consider it to require an advanced/itermediate level of music reading to be able to digest?



Intermediate maybe? Really it depends on how determined you are. If you have never played an instrument reading any notation, it will be quite difficult. However, it's not insurmountable; if you have taken even one year of lessons at school or something that is a pretty good start. 

You need to be able to read bass and treble clef, I'd say, but that's something you can learn. Later, it's nice to be able to read (even if slowly....) alto clef for viola parts but plenty of people just muddle through.

The main thing is -- do something! If you dream of a career at this, you don't have to know everything, but I use everything I know, every time.


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## Last-Echo (May 30, 2019)

JohnG said:


> do something! If you dream of a career at this, you don't have to know everything, but I use everything I know, every time.


Thank you for your input. I will get to it


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## Reid Rosefelt (May 30, 2019)

Well, I'm sold.


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## JohnG (May 30, 2019)

TigerTheFrog said:


> Well, I'm sold.



I'm not sure I am!

I love Adler but I fear that someone watching this will interpret his saying that, "before you think of composing you must learn _this_ and _this_ and _this_...," which mishandles the most crucial instinct of any composer: *The urge to make stuff up.
*
The most important thing for a young composer to do is -- _anything_. I agree that to achieve a professional level of success, normally one needs to know a lot of things. But to do _something,_ you don't need to know _everything.
_
That does not translate to: "It's bad to know anything," or "it's ok, or even _preferable _to know nothing." That is foolish. It is, however equally foolish to insist that any young person be assigned years of drudgery before being allowed to try to write music. That is stupid, because...

...the only thing that is guaranteed to make you unsuccessful as a composer is to quit.

So? What do you do?

*Learn As You Go*

If you hear a piece of music and think a particular passage is "cool," then figure it out, or buy the score and figure out that passage. Then do that about a thousand times (over six months or six decades) and you'll be able to say what you want to say, the _way_ you want to say it.

Do you need to copy out all Beethoven's / Hans' / Scriabin's great works before being permitted to compose? No. But you would learn a lot if you did copy out, say, eight (or merely four) bars of your favourite part of "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone," or "Back to the Future," or "Edward Scissorhands" -- or any of the many movie scores you can buy (for less than the price of the next v.i. library).

You don't need to know everything to get started, but it is helpful to know something. If you are going to survive your first low-budget feature film (and its typically impossible schedule) it's great to have a few bits and bobs figured out first.

Or copy advertising, or "The Pines of Rome" or "Carmina Burana." Learn a little here and a little there.


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## Reid Rosefelt (May 30, 2019)

JohnG said:


> I'm not sure I am!
> 
> I love Adler but I fear that someone watching this will interpret his saying that, "before you think of composing you must learn _this_ and _this_ and _this_...," which mishandles the most crucial instinct of any composer: *The urge to make stuff up.
> *
> ...


I just meant I was sold on him as a wonderful teacher.


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## Land of Missing Parts (May 30, 2019)

Don't be put-off by the video above, the book is a solid resource. In that video...he comes across like Mel Brooks satirizing a pretentious composer. 

I'm loving this thread.


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## Robert_G (May 30, 2019)

This topic has been so helpful. Im so green when it comes to composing and the fact that there are pros here willing to spend their valuable time helping complete newbies like myself and the OP is just fantastic.

Just giving out a big thank you.


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## synergy543 (May 30, 2019)

I think the best tools for learning orchestration are a notation program (Sibelius or Dorico) and NotePerformer. You can try out just a few notes from a simple score and hear immediate results that give you a reasonable representation of the balance you might get with real instruments. You can start out as simple as you need and expand from there. Try just one note! Then a few more. Then add some other instruments. Hear what a section sounds like by itself or with other sections. Basically, its a computer representation of what you could only get otherwise by being a conductor and having an orchestra to try out various ideas and passages. Nothing like this ever existed previously in history, this is quite unique. 

NotePerformer + a notation program is very different from using a DAW and samples as its essentially instant gratification whereas using a DAW and samples can take a fair amount of work and time and you're still not assured a good representative balance in the end. As witnessed on this forum, many people are struggling for years to get good results with a DAW and samples. Of course NotePerformer is not the same nor a substitute for the better results that are possible with a DAW and samples. However, as a learning tool, NotePerformer and a notation program is a far better choice.


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## ed buller (May 30, 2019)

I'm a lone voice here but I'm not that enamored with Adler. There are much better books out there IMHO.

But firstly to "start" studying orchestartion i'd get a copy of *Pictures at an Exhibition*. This was originally a piano piece. Listen to that then the Orchestrated version by Ravel;



just listen to this over and over. Imagine it orchestrated . How would YOU do it....what would play the melody at the beginning ? where would it build. How would the bass be handled. How wide would the sound get ? where's the peaks and troughs ?...etc etc......


then listen to this:





Now not ALL orchestration is a piano transformation. A lot is written FOR orchestra from the get go . But with the Ravel version we can clearly see and hear, a before and after. And Ravel was a supreme orchestrator. But in essence what you are trying to learn is how to go from Black and white to color. No easy task. The problem with 90% of ALL orchestration books is that they deal with the individual instruments. Very little about the sound of the combinations. And even then sometimes it just drifts into specifics far too much. Essentially Orchestras are 4 blocks. Woodwind Brass Perc and Strings. They can play together, on their own and in combinations. The strings are the most versatile in terms of dynamics and color. So many techniques and they can go down to almost total silence. The brass is by far the loudest. A trombone can go from a "murmur"...to....................................... "IF YOU EVER DO THAT AGAIN I"M GOING TO FUCKING KILL YOU...............I"M NOT KIDDING !!"

Glockenspiels and piccolos can drown out almost everything.....( except trombones) .


For most people there are 8 Levels. PPP PP P MP MF F FF FFF . But a Flutes FFF is very hard at it's lowest range as is a PPP at it's highest...Physics plays a huge part !!!!


If You can, go hear an orchestra as much as possible. Go to rehearsals. I used to go and hear Micheal Tilson Thomas rehearse in San Francisco...it was very educational.

Go onto A free website like ( https://imslp.org/wiki/ ). Download something easy...Like Mozart. Get some Colored Markers. Three should do it. And highlight the bit's. Look for Melody and Harmony. And usually something else. The rule of three is very true.

https://music.tutsplus.com/tutorials/the-rule-of-three-and-music--audio-1389


and


https://music.tutsplus.com/tutorial...0.1858138829.1559258500-1788638492.1557338243


but it's a huge subject. And you really should study the Masters. Yes Hollywood has some fabulous orchestrations but start with The classics.

Stravinsky
Debussy
Mahler
Wagner
Ravel
Rimsky Korsakov
...........................

they will keep you going for a while


bet

of luck


e


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## JJP (May 30, 2019)

synergy543 said:


> I think the best tools for learning orchestration are a notation program (Sibelius or Dorico) and NotePerformer.



I could not disagree more. This is not good advice. This is about the same as saying writing something in Word and having text-to-speech read it back is a good way to learn how to write an effective speech. These programs will give you an idea of how the instruments sound together in a computer, but absolutely no information on how they balance in real life or behave in different registers. You will end up with some conclusions that are completely out of touch with how instruments work in practice.

I know this won't be popular, but my honest advice is this: If you are learning the basics of harmony and general music composition, stick with that for now. Learn that to the best of your ability. Ask your teacher when would be a good time to study orchestration. You will need solid harmony fundamentals to be an effective orchestrator. This is why most most decent college music programs require at minimum of two semesters of music theory, even four in the case of my school, as a prerequisite for studying orchestration. You can't have intelligent discussions about orchestration unless you first know harmony.


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## synergy543 (May 30, 2019)

JJP said:


> I could not disagree more. This is not good advice. This is about the same as saying writing something in Word and having text-to-speech read it back is a good way to learn how to write an effective speech.


JJP, that's a poor analogy. Composers have been learning by copying masters for centuries with pen and paper. The only difference with NotePerformer and a notation program is that the tools are different (and in many ways better). Many people suggest reading Adler and Rimsky-Korsakov but you don't learn by just reading these books. Half of the Rimsky-Korsakov orchestration book are scores and beginners don't get much by just looking at them or even by score reading. So much more can be learned by playing these either in a DAW or notation program but this takes a lot of work. And even better is to reduce these scores to study the harmony and structure of the lines. Students can read all they want from harmony and orchestration books but probably less than 5% will be retained if they don't actually write and use this knowledge in practice.

btw, Prokofiev started writing as child and before he knew much at all. His early work was fairly mundane and Taneyev even told him his harmony was "painfully primitive". Prokofiev said "those words burned themselves into my brain", and thus began his ambition towards more complex harmonies. So of course, both skills (composition and harmony) need to be developed and as music requires many different skills, it makes sense to learn them concurrently.


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## JohnG (May 30, 2019)

TigerTheFrog said:


> I just meant I was sold on him as a wonderful teacher.



sorry bruv


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## Last-Echo (May 31, 2019)

synergy543 said:


> NotePerformer and a notation program is a far better choice.


Hmm interesting approach. How do you utilise NotePerformer to its full potential as a learning tool?


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## Last-Echo (May 31, 2019)

ed buller said:


> But firstly to "start" studying orchestartion i'd get a copy of *Pictures at an Exhibition*.


Thank you for your input  it is highly appreciated! I will look into all of these 
resources.


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## synergy543 (May 31, 2019)

Last-Echo said:


> Hmm interesting approach. How do you utilise NotePerformer to its full potential as a learning tool?


I use it to study scores. First, you learn a great deal entering notes. It makes you think about the way the composer wrote the score and why he orchestrated it this way. And you'll learn about writing articulations and phrasing as well as just notes. Most orchestral lines are articulated and phrased very carefully and it makes a huge difference. You'll learn about ranges and optimal writing range, you'll learn about transposing and reading different clefs, etc. And when you run into questions and problems, you can use these as jumping off points to study the issues in more detail whether they are harmony or orchestration. Then at the bottom, I do a piano reduction to study the harmony and get an overall picture of the score in piano reduction. In Sibelius, you can easily select single or multiple staves so you can hear what an individual section sounds like on its own and how the various sections support each other. Its just another way to score study, but I find it a much deeper dive than just reading a score or making annotations. It heavily requires your involvement and makes you think about the orchestration in extreme detail. Of course YMMV, though I find it both extremely insightful and enlightening.


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## Last-Echo (May 31, 2019)

JJP said:


> Ask your teacher when would be a good time to study orchestration.


I am studying all of this by myself, I live in a very remote place. Far from cities, towns, etc. I have never had any music lessons in any institute before.


JJP said:


> You will need solid harmony fundamentals to be an effective orchestrator.


This makes sense, I will keep learning harmonies, etc. And also see how much I can learn to orchestrate while I am still in the process. Thank you for your input


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## synergy543 (May 31, 2019)

Last-Echo said:


> I am studying all of this by myself, I live in a very remote place. Far from cities, towns, etc. I have never had any music lessons in any institute before.


IMSLP and archive.org are your friends. On Archive.org you can find an amazing selection of books on harmony and orchestration. Check authors Heacox, McPherson, Lovelock, and Joseph Wagner. Wagner wrote an interesting book on orchestration that discusses how to arrange piano pieces for orchestra (based on Heacox's book Lessons in Orchestration which covers the same). He discusses various arrangements and the pros/cons. If you're doing self-study, you can learn a lot from Wagner's Orchestration book.
https://archive.org/details/orchestrationpra00wagn


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## mikeh-375 (May 31, 2019)

@ed buller touched on something I haven't seen yet here (apologies if I missed it) in that orchestration should be inherent from the outset of composing and its effects, balances, timbres etc. should be utilised at the composing stage, not as an afterthought, that should be the op's ultimate goal ideally - a synergy between practicality, possibilities and creativity, one feeding the other. In that way, the music becomes idiomatic and just plays right. Otherwise the composer is continually arranging for rather than composing for the orchestra and missing out on the idiomatic opportunities for composition.
Getting to that stage though requires a serious commitment to goal driven study and will take years - but it's where J.Williams is at for example...that's the truth of it and what is required for achieving excellence.
The OP could start by discovering the strengths and weaknesses of instruments individually, first off, then do compositional exercises that exploit their strengths and technical capabilities in order to be able to insinuate the concepts into the initial moments of creation as guides and inspirational tools. Studies of balance within groups and then between groups would then be better informed as a result.

I have to agree totally with @JJP above. Learn the basics because they are the minimum requirement for orchestration if one is to do it properly (read...well).

_"Do today what others won’t so tomorrow you can do what others can’t."_ – Jerry Rice


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## Reid Rosefelt (May 31, 2019)

In my $$ job as a publicity writer, I interviewed cinematographer Vittorio Storaro for the third time a few weeks ago. He told me that after shooting APOCALYPSE NOW, which he won the Oscar for, he felt he didn't know enough about color. So the man who shot THE CONFORMIST and LAST TANGO and so many others, stopped working and went on a personal course of intensive study for a year. I find Storaro's pursuit of rigor to be inspiring. I got the same feeling from Adler. I have always advanced the most with teachers with high standards and high demands.

At my age, I have no dreams of being an orchestral composer. I am an amateur songwriter with a passion for and curiosity about world music. I have other interests, like filmmaking. To be honest, I enjoy the pure gadgety technology side of making music with computers.

But the study of melody, counterpoint and orchestration... that interests me a lot. I don't listen to music with a score because I am hoping to be the next Ennio Morricone, but because it is very enjoyable to do so. And learning about all matters musical informs everything I do.

In fact, talking to Storaro, I said, "you sound to me more like a composer than a cinematographer." Because when he told me he needed to have a reason for every image and for every color, he sounded more like the people on this forum than most of the other directors of photography I know. And Storaro knew what I meant and liked this comment very much.

And when Adler talked, among other things, about how art should have a meaning but that the artist shouldn't explain too much what he thinks it is, that resonated with me. That's what I told the actors and directors I worked with for years. Don't explain and take that job away from the audience.

So I didn't find him ridiculous, and of course I don't feel bad that I can't go back in time and learn a ton of stuff before I began writing music over 50 years ago.

I look forward to learning from him as I look forward to continuing to learn from all of you.


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## JohnG (May 31, 2019)

I guess anyplace is ok to start. 

That said, personally, I am squeamish about recommending Piston (though I have it and have studied it) or Rimsky-Korsakoff (same) only because they are so old and because I find them relatively idiosyncratic and personal. 

By contrast, Adler I find takes a more inclusive approach. No doubt he has his prejudices but I find those lean generally toward the practical side -- what players can actually execute -- and less on the "what I think sounds good" side. I also think Adler's musical examples expose to some extent one of the elements @JJP emphasized in his post -- the difference of various instruments in various registers. I agree with him that samples often disguise that issue (though oddly not the EWQLSO original library, which I found unerringly predictive of what will sound strained or comfortable for players).

So if you're going down the road of trying to learn orchestration using samples via a DAW or notation program, maybe consider the (I assume very inexpensive now) EWQLSO library as a sketching tool. It also would be far less demanding on computer resources than the new libraries.

*What to Look for?*

But if you're going to look at scores, be sure to look -- thinking of brass and woodwinds -- at the actual _ranges_ the composer uses. Every orchestration book worth its salt will talk about the difference in timbre between low, medium and high for wind instruments. It's a huge difference and, for particular effects, the range you want for a particular sound is often surprisingly narrow.

Example: Do you love the trumpet / brass fanfare at the beginning of Star Wars? It's in exactly the register that makes it both playable and sound awesome.

*Number One Mistake(s)*

The number one mistake is forgetting to let wind players breathe and for the feeling to return to brass players' lips -- rests, in other words.

But maybe even more common and equally pernicious are range blunders. Inexperienced composers often put the French Horns (and trumpets), for example, in their extreme high range for long periods of time. Not only does this disappoint in real life (because it sounds a lot more pinched and strained than it does on samples, and just not as brilliant and alluring as people expect), it's often unplayable, even by professionals. Sure, you can find a sample set with French Horns playing way high, but in real life, with a real budget, and real people those notes sometimes sound and work much better on the trumpet or flugel horn.

By contrast, people forget how brilliant and controlled trombones are in their high register. They can play well up to at least a c-natural in the middle of the treble clef (one octave above middle c; I know the literature has higher notes but I have never written higher than that for a recording gig).

Anyway, this thread offers many good suggestions about learning harmony, studying scores etc. Personally I'm not at all a fan of orchestrating piano pieces -- it's incredibly laborious and, unless you are Ravel reincarnated, often rather disappointing. But I guess one can learn that way too.

Number three mistake? Maybe crowding too much in the low registers? But @JJP would be a good one to rank common errors and misguided ideas since he orchestrates for others all the time.

*Best Study Scores?*

There are a lot of scores from which you can learn, but for those seeking to write film music, here is a handful that contains some of what one hears all the time in movie scores: 

*"Old Guys" Concert Repertoire: *Ravel or Debussy -- treasure troves; Respighi; the Russians (Prokofiev, Tchaikovsky, Mussorgsky, Glinka, Kabalevsky, Rimsky-Korsakoff and of course Stravinsky); Richard Strauss; Wagner.

*More modern and available, maybe in your library: *John Adams -- has a bunch of concert works available (listen to him and then the scores for The Matrix -- hmm); Benjamin Britten; Philip Glass; Lutoslawski; Ligeti;

*Movie Scores that are / have been in print: *Edward Scissorhands; just about anything from John Williams but Raiders March, Harry Potter, Star Wars, Schindler's List; Back to the Future; 

Naturally I'm forgetting some obvious stuff so others please chime in.

Again, just learn _something_. One doesn't have to know everything to make plenty of headway.


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## ed buller (May 31, 2019)

*My Fav Books:*

_The Elements of Orchestral Arrangement: _*William Lovelock*
_Orchestration Scores and Scoring: _*Donald J Rauscher*
_Thinking Of Orchestration: _*Rene Leibowitz and Jan Maguire*
_The Art Of Orchestration: _* Bernard Rogers*
_The Technique of Orchestration: _*Kent Wheeler Kennan*
_Orchestration: _*Wagner *
_The Orchestra: _* Prout*
_Style and Orchestration: _*Gardner Read*_ (_more of a historical compendium)
_Orchestration: _*Cecil Forsyth *
_Principles Of Orchestration: _*Rimsky*
_Project Lessons In Orchestration: _*Arthur E Heacox*


we had a fire here last year and got a warning to evacuate ( although we never did ) These are still in the box by the garage door ! Some are hard to find but worth it. Forsyth's is the closest to Adler ( though NOT as detailed ) but has all I need. The others especially the Wagner and Heacox are much more thorough. The Heacox has lessons and really good assignments . But I'd be hard pressed to part with any !. Thinking of Orchestration is basically two books. The first part is piano pieces. The second is the answer's how they where orchestrated. You get clues and some instructions. Then you go to part two to see how you did...Fabulous !


But as quick as you can Study scores. Bear in mind a revolution happened in the late 19th century as well. Technique become much more pronounced in the whole orchestra as apposed to soloists. Just look at the end of the first section of the Rite Of Spring in the Woodwinds !!!. And yes I agree with Mikeh-375. Orchestration really at it's best IS the piece. You just can't imagine Daphnes and Chloe on a piano !


best


ed


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## Zero&One (May 31, 2019)

When I started this journey last year one simple piece of advice has helped me so much. 
Listen to classical music. 

Classic FM is constantly on, I've had so many inspirations doing this and discovered many new composers from across the spectrum. My Shazam is full.
I'm sure @Parsifal666 gave me that advice, so I'll credit you


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## ed buller (May 31, 2019)

Half price !......a lot here to like. a very detailed look at a lot of wonderful orchestrations. It’s a bit scattergun but lots of info and easy to digest :

https://sellfy.com/p/pVy1/


Best Ed


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## Reid Rosefelt (May 31, 2019)

I have found this to be a useful online source. What do you think?

Admittedly, the movies and sound clips are pretty old, but Hugill is hoping to re-record them.

http://andrewhugill.com/OrchestraManual/index.html (The Orchestra - A User's Manual by Andrew Hugill)


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## Bartholomeus (May 31, 2019)

Last-Echo said:


> I know the basics of music theory, i.e (reading notation, time signatures, etc). But I have never worked with an orchestral track before.
> To put it in context, I am an aspiring film composer. I want to learn how an orchestra works, but have no clue where to even begin. ... Also, I am still in the process of learning composition, i.e (chord and melody progressions and how one chord might lead to another, etc)



I would say: try arranging for just a few orchestral instruments at first so as not to get overwhelmed. 
For example, write something basic on your own instrument (guitar, piano, whatever). Then arrange and orchestrate it for -at most- a string quartet. Then try the same thing for a few woodwind instruments. Then try for brass.

My way of working is: I don't add a line or an instrument unless I first hear in my mind that it needs to be there and that it fits. If you (or I) cannot 'hear' great and meaningful parts for an entire orchestra in parallel yet, then why don't we just keep it small at first? 

There are some great film scores with very minimal instrumentation. Think of _Intouchables _and _Amelie_ for example. It's more important that what you compose is good than complicated. In fact, making it complicated should not be a goal at all IMO.


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## Andrew Christie (May 31, 2019)

Mike Verta's masterclasses. Done.

https://mikeverta.com/product-category/masterclasses/


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## handz (May 31, 2019)

A lot of people will recommend something like books (Adler, Korsakov...) But honestly, for me, the best way to learn for me is to listen to tons of classical (and any other good orchestral) music and then read and analyze tons scores (or good midi files made from scores).


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## JohnG (May 31, 2019)

handz said:


> A lot of people will recommend something like books (Adler, Korsakov...) But honestly, for me, the best way to learn for me is to listen to tons of classical (and any other good orchestral) music and then read and analyze tons scores (or good midi files made from scores).



Fair position; I think both is nice. Certainly if you have never heard an orchestra, starting straight in with a textbook would be weird!


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## jonathanparham (May 31, 2019)

there's always folks on this forum for lessons too. Also, Scoreclub.net


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## stonzthro (May 31, 2019)

Tons of great information here from really smart folks - not joking - some very respectable composers have chimed in here.
Here's how I learn:
1. Listen (and often read)
2. Do
Orchestration books and scores are super useful; always keep an orchestration book within reach. That said, my simple recommendation is this - find a piece you like and mock it up (either with a score or just your ears). You'll learn a ton! Then write a piece or five with what you've learned. Repeat usque ad mortem. You'll start to learn ranges, general timbre variations and color combinations; granted samples won't give you everything, but they get your brain/ears in the ballpark - listening will make up the rest.
3. Don't wait until you think you know enough - that day never comes.


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## NoamL (May 31, 2019)

*Attend orchestra rehearsals. NOT concerts.
*
The time I spent playing in orchestras continues to be more useful to me now 15 years later than any book. If you can't be in an orchestra, the next best thing is to attend rehearsals. I'm sure you have a community orchestra nearby. Email them and say you're a composer studying orchestration and want to silently attend the rehearsals. There are always music librarians, PAs and other nonmusicians at rehearsals so you won't be a bother or stand out.

So far everyone has covered the concept of orchestration from the angle of "writing colorful and varied music for the musicians." This is good but another aspect of orchestration is understanding what can trip up musicians, what kind of music works instantly and what needs a little or a lot of workshopping. And the atmosphere at a rehearsal of a community orchestra or youth orchestra is a lot like the atmosphere of a scoring stage. The musicians are discovering how the music fits together as they play it. And the sound is direct and not covered up with all the glamour of a concert hall reverb. Attending a concert is really not any more valuable than listening to music on YouTube.


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## Saxer (May 31, 2019)

Work with musicians. Play with them, write for them. Go to rehearsals. Don't start with a full orchestra. Small ensembles are ok, rock/pop bands with brass section are looking for arrangements all the time. String quartet is great to try some voicings for a beer, also clarinet quartets and so on.


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## Leon Portelance (Jun 1, 2019)

Walter Piston’s - Orchestrion


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## Sam Reed (Jun 22, 2019)

JohnG said:


> unless you are Ravel reincarnated



Oh man, that's been on my Christmas wishlist since I was a kid; if only, if only ...


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## Sam Reed (Jun 22, 2019)

Lots of great stuff in this thread; even some of the things that seemingly contradict each other are often both true simultaneously (as often happens when discussing art).



douggibson said:


> Put Yo-Yo Ma behind a Cello and you get one kind of result. You put me behind one (I don't play Cello) and you get a totally different kind of result. The Cello did not change.



Tangentially, this reminds me of my own personal cure for when "gear acquisition syndrome" flares up; I just remind myself: put Yo-Yo Ma behind a $40 cello made out of balsa wood -- you will get music. I haven't touched a cello since high school, but put me behind the priceless Stradivarius Ma once accidentally left in a taxi -- on a good day you'll get Penderecki, on a typical day you'll get the sound of kittens being tortured.



douggibson said:


> Learn how to get great results economically. In a lot of really good studio scores you'll notice a great economy of craft. How to make something sound harder than it actually is.



A thousand times yes (and applies to all aspects of composition, not "just" orchestration). This is one of those fundamentals to return to/constantly remind oneself of no matter how long you've been at it. Even bonafide virtuosi like Ravel quite often adhere to exactly this -- and even when they're choosing to push the envelope, they always do it idiomatically, so the performer responds with "cool, thanks for handing me some fun challenges to bite into" rather than "wow, you're a real jerk ..."


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## 5Lives (Jun 24, 2019)

Definitely lot of good advice in this thread - but personally find it quite tailored to folks that are looking to do this professionally or work with professional orchestras. For others of us who do this more of a hobby / have limited time and want to keep it "fun" / do not quite aspire to replace the day job - and find themselves "stuck" with a piano sketch or something, I can offer a different suggestion - *Evenant's "Cinematic Music: From Idea to Finished Recording"*.

I grew up playing the piano (along with a handful of other things), but wouldn't consider myself proficient at writing on staff paper (quite poor actually) and my sight reading is ok, if I have lots of time to work everything out. I've bought a lot of material over the years - from Visual Orchestration, to Scoreclub, to Mike Verta's courses, to ThinkSpace, to private lessons for a few months. I was even around on the Garritan forums back in the day when they first launched their Rimsky-Korsakov orchestration guide. All of these felt a bit advanced or not quite getting to what I needed. It was like getting dropped in a foreign country where you don't know the language. Or going from 0mph to 25mph - if you're standing still, 25mph is quite fast! They also felt rather academic at times (some more than others) - and the last thing you want to do after coming home from work is calculus homework when you're still trying to understand algebra!

Then I found the Evenant course and what I like about it is 1) the music is more modern, which does make it more appealing to go through than studying something like a classical piece from a hundred years ago (personal opinion) 2) you are actually watching somebody orchestrate a piano sketch in real-time, and 3) it is the 0mph to 10mph step I was missing. It doesn't go as deep into orchestration as these other resources, but that wasn't what I needed. I needed to see the building blocks of melody, harmony, rhythm, texture, etc. and how those map to instruments / instrument combos. They touch briefly on things like chord voicing, but generally, not a strong focus. I did some of the Bach chorale harmony voicing with Thinkspace, but I didn't really get to apply any of it - it felt very academic and time consuming (and yes, I know that is important, but when you have limited time for a hobby, the last thing you probably want to do is spend an hour on a handful of measures working out if you have parallel fifths)! I view that stuff as refinement on top of more fundamental concepts. Without the fundamental concepts, what are you actually refining?

Christian Henson from Spitfire talks about this too - he doesn't come from a music theory background and he never talks about things like voice leading, contrary motion, etc. in his videos. He's learned those over time of course, but fundamentally, he starts with the core of the music and what sounds good to him. That was what I was missing with these other resources. Now, I feel more confident in tackling those other resources because at least the music has gotten off the ground - which to me is 80% of the battle. You can always go back and refine it to achieve the other 20% using more advanced knowledge.

Anyway, those are my 2 cents from the non-professional / hobbyist perspective!

Edit: Whoever recommend this  - great recommendation! My kind of video.


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