# VSL Synchron Woodwinds - first play, no talking



## Soundbed (Dec 20, 2021)

I bought this last night. Played with it for about 10 minutes, got to the group runs patch, started recording this video. Basically it's a nearly flawless library. I didn't exhaustively go through every articulation for every instrument, but I picked through a few instruments again while recording and it's like ... what's not to like? It's consistent, it's solid, it's got a lot of features, it's well recorded, it's consistent. I didn't even get to the mic options. I mean. It's really solid. If you're into that sort of thing. And there's more instruments on the way, to be added, soon. I can do more video recording but it was difficult to find something I disliked about this library in the first ~20 minutes of noodling around.




btw - this is on an M1 with Monterrey too


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## Soundbed (Dec 20, 2021)

Couldn't get enough. Had to come back and record some more.


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## Zanshin (Dec 20, 2021)

Glad to see you took my suggestion in that woodwinds poll thread after all 

I haven’t had a lot of time with it yet - I bought a ton of stuff this month, but so far I’m pretty happy with it too.

Good video, happy to see it covered by you!


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## Soundbed (Dec 20, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> Glad to see you took my suggestion in that woodwinds poll thread after all
> 
> I haven’t had a ton of time with it yet - I bought a ton of stuff this month, but so far I’m pretty happy with it too.
> 
> Good video, happy to see it covered by you!


It was sort of a splurge purchase, because my Pacific money was burning a hole in my pocket.


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## Zanshin (Dec 20, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> It was sort of a splurge purchase, because my Pacific money was burning a hole in my pocket.


My pacific funds were splurged on Berlin Strings (along with BSS). Time to start saving my pennies again!


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## Evans (Dec 20, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> My pacific funds were splurged on Berlin Strings (along with BSS). Time to start saving my pennies again!


I'm struggling with my desire to buy Synchron WW and the Percussion bundle (or, at least some vouchers so I can grab it next sale), because there's also

Pacific Strings
Audio Imperia Chorus
A likely Symphobia bundle sale (yes, I'm late to the game)
Maybe a sale on the Arks?
:(

I have Synchron Strings Pro Full and Synchron Brass Standard, along with several BBO packs for percussion... so... completing this sounds nice?


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## Zanshin (Dec 20, 2021)

Evans said:


> I'm struggling with my desire to buy Synchron WW and the Percussion bundle (or, at least some vouchers so I can grab it next sale), because there's also
> 
> Pacific Strings
> Audio Imperia Chorus
> ...


The BBO percussion is a great deal and covers a ton of ground. You could probably wait to pick up the full bundle given that. I was inspired to pick up the full bundle because after listening to Takemitsu's Ran soundtrack (a bunch) I realized I need to step up my percussion game - like how I think about it and it's use. So my next thought was I want ALL the percussion lol.

Synchron WW is less clear... I forget, do you have Synchron-ized WW? That package is still awesome, and really would want both in end the end.

This month I picked up BS, BSS and then from VSL: the CFX, Synchron WW, Synchron Harp, Synchron Perc bundle, and Syz Dimension Brass. I've been doing some initial sketches and I am grinning like a mad man. Love BS/BSS (panned to wide Synchron positions) with Synchronized Dim Brass and the rest as a supporting cast. At this point I am wondering if it's not Teldex, Synchron, or easily placed in MIR - do I bother???

... Pacific sounds ace though haha.


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## Evans (Dec 20, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> Synchron WW is less clear... I forget, do you have Synchron-ized WW? That package is still awesome, and really would want both in end the end.


I don't, actually! I ran a demo of it, and liked it very much but didn't pull the trigger because I was so invested in (and comfortable with) Teldex. The only Synchron-ized stuff I have is Dimension Strings (love it) and the tasters from Epic Orchestra (which came with MIR).

But at some point I might as well round out Synchron proper. Or buy the Arks to finish up Teldex.


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## Zanshin (Dec 20, 2021)

Evans said:


> But at some point I might as well round out Synchron proper. Or buy the Arks to finish up Teldex.


Might as well get it all


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## MaxOctane (Dec 20, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> Might as well get it all


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## doctoremmet (Dec 21, 2021)

Evans said:


> Maybe a sale on the Arks?


All five for EUR999 + VAT it seems. I have no need for them but the sheer “deal value” makes it tempting. Anyway… @Soundbed thanks for these videos. I’m on the fence as well. These? The Synchron-ized ones sound a tad more lyrical and expressive in the demos? Or go with SINE Woodwind Soloists.


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## Soundbed (Dec 21, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> … @Soundbed thanks for these videos. I’m on the fence as well. These? The Synchron-ized ones sound a tad more lyrical and expressive in the demos? Or go with SINE Woodwind Soloists.



Yeah I don’t find these overly “lyrical” I guess… they are more like “extremely capable” is my first impression.

I’ve started to enjoy CSW more and more while pondering OT Berlin Winds (the standard package not the soloists). I passed on the soloists when they came to SINE, but might still get them before 2022 is over. 

The crossfade phasing in CSW remains bothersome in isolation, which is the main reason I continue searching. Opus WW still have some weird quirks. The NI Symphonic WW sound fairly robotic. Solo from Audio Imperia is a bit limited even though it’s solid (does what it does).

For lyrical my fallback remains the 8Dio Claire series, which is still a joy to play. It’s got a few challenges to work through in practice. But if I really want / need lyrical I’ve still got that one in my back pocket.


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## doctoremmet (Dec 21, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Yeah I don’t find these overly “lyrical” I guess… they are more like “extremely capable” is my first impression.
> 
> I’ve started to enjoy CSW more and more while pondering OT Berlin Winds (the standard package not the soloists). I passed on the soloists when they came to SINE, but might still get them before 2022 is over.
> 
> ...


Solid analysis! I agree that Claire are still pretty compelling instruments when one wants “lyrical” and I am on the fence whether I’m buying VSL vouchers and just go all out and get Synchron + Synchron-ized WW (plus Bass Flute and Contrabass Clarinet). Or -like you- maybe just get the Berlin Woodwind Soloists on SINE. But didn’t that package somehow disappoint you @jbuhler?


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## Zanshin (Dec 21, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Solid analysis! I agree that Claire are still pretty compelling instruments when one wants “lyrical” and I am on the fence whether I’m buying VSL vouchers and just go all out and get Synchron + Synchron-ized WW (plus Bass Flute and Contrabass Clarinet). Or -like you- maybe just get the Berlin Woodwind Soloists on SINE. But didn’t that package somehow disappoint you @jbuhler?



The Oboe d'amore is a beauty too. I picked up that and the bass flute recently. I am still considering the Berlin Soloists as well!


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## jbuhler (Dec 21, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Solid analysis! I agree that Claire are still pretty compelling instruments when one wants “lyrical” and I am on the fence whether I’m buying VSL vouchers and just go all out and get Synchron + Synchron-ized WW (plus Bass Flute and Contrabass Clarinet). Or -like you- maybe just get the Berlin Woodwind Soloists on SINE. But didn’t that package somehow disappoint you @jbuhler?


I find the Berlin woodwind soloists hard to sit in Sine. Initially I thought it was user error since I usually work with wetter libraries. But I got the Duplex Saxes which are the same room and I don’t have the same issues. So who knows? The woodwind soloists also come minimally set up out of the box so you’ll have to do work on them, so if you are used to OT instruments working out of the box these won’t do that. 

Some of the crossfades from the legato sample to the sustain seem sloppy too. I’m not one who obsesses about these things so if it bugs me it will likely bug most other folks. And unlike the Kontakt versions there’s no way to work on these transitions other than raising or lowering the legato interval volume.


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## doctoremmet (Dec 21, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I find the Berlin woodwind soloists hard to sit in Sine. Initially I thought it was user error since I usually work with wetter libraries. But I got the Duplex Saxes which are the same room and I don’t have the same issues. So who knows? The woodwind soloists also come minimally set up out of the box so you’ll have to do work on them, so if you are used to OT instruments working out of the box these won’t do that.
> 
> Some of the crossfades from the legato sample to the sustain seem sloppy too. I’m not one who obsesses about these things so if it bugs me it will likely bug most other folks. And unlike the Kontakt versions there’s no way to work on these transitions other than raising or lowering the legato interval volume.


That is a very clear message Jim. Thanks - much appreciated!


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## Jett Hitt (Dec 21, 2021)

@doctoremmet I too find them very diificult to work with. It was one of the first ports they did, but despite this, it has not recieved one update since release.


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## Soundbed (Dec 21, 2021)

Ok then maybe I will not be getting the SINE Berlin Soloists. (fwiw I did not "fall in love" with the Berlin FC strings, so, maybe I should take a hint and not get the solo winds either.)


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## doctoremmet (Dec 21, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Ok then maybe I will not be getting the SINE Berlin Soloists. (fwiw I did not "fall in love" with the Berlin FC strings, so, maybe I should take a hint and not get the solo winds either.)


Same here. Back to my huge evergrowing VSL decision-support spreadsheet that rules from the center of the Ultraworld! Thanks @Jett Hitt ❤️


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## jbuhler (Dec 21, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Ok then maybe I will not be getting the SINE Berlin Soloists. (fwiw I did not "fall in love" with the Berlin FC strings, so, maybe I should take a hint and not get the solo winds either.)


I find the Sine FCs have similar issues to the woodwind soloists, though I’ve started being able to use the FCs to a degree with BS. They come out of BS as spot orchestral soloists ok, or at least the violin does, which is the only instrument I’ve tried this way. I still find them less successful as a chamber group, compared to say the SF Solo Strings.


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## holywilly (Dec 21, 2021)

For Berlin woodwinds soloists, just turn down the volume and insert a nice reverb will sound as beautiful as true soloists. The bass oboe is truly a hidden gem. 

I truly wish Synchron Woodwinds can be lyrical, otherwise it’s a perfect woodwinds library from VSL.


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## jbuhler (Dec 21, 2021)

holywilly said:


> For Berlin woodwinds soloists, just turn down the volume and insert a nice reverb will sound as beautiful as true soloists. The bass oboe is truly a hidden gem.
> 
> I truly wish Synchron Woodwinds can be lyrical, otherwise it’s a perfect woodwinds library from VSL.


I tried that with little success. I mean aside from the legato crossfades they sound nice enough with a good reverb but they don’t sit with other instruments no matter how much I fiddle with panning, close reflections, and tail. I don’t have the same issue with the Duplex Saxes. I suspect it’s still user error but I’m also not at all sure how to address it.


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## Soundbed (Dec 28, 2021)

Folks, I may have made a mistake with this one.

I have been writing today with CSW and VSL Synchron Woodwinds, and ... in almost every case I prefer CSW.

When I got Synchron WW and played it, I wasn't sure if I'd like it, and I did! But ...

I don't love it nearly "as much" as CSW.

The tone and sound of CSW simply sounds better, to my ears, on basically every solo instrument I've tried. I haven't gotten to the section / groups yet.

Anyone else who has both care to chime in?

I wasn't recording what I was doing, but I'm beginning to wonder if Synchron Woodwinds is really for me, now that I've gone through and played every solo instrument back to back with CSW.

Not sure I have a way to justify to myself what Synchron WW is bringing to the table for the price, considering I might be reaching for CSW first, every time, after this afternoon.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 28, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Folks, I may have made a mistake with this one.
> 
> I have been writing today with CSW and VSL Synchron Woodwinds, and ... in almost every case I prefer CSW.
> 
> ...


I just did a quick play through of the opening flute and oboe lines from Princess Leia's Theme with Synchron Flute / Oboe 1, CSW Solo Flute / Oboe, and Berlin Flute / Oboe 1 (SINE). They all sound very different - I wouldn't say any sounds "better". In fact, I found CSW actually was probably my least favorite of the three for these lines. CSW's flute was shrill and piercing on that top G in the melody and the Oboe has sort of a honky rambunctious quality that is unsuited for this line. I found the flute legato to also be quite bumpy surprisingly (in both legato modes). I liked the Synchron Flute the best, both with the regular and espressivo legatos. The SINE flute was also nice. For the Oboe, Synchron's Oboe 1 has quite a smooth timbre to it - quite nice for a soloist line like this, but perhaps could be slightly more nasally. The SINE oboe had a nice balance in that way.

I am looking forward to the additional solo instruments VSL will provide in 2022 - if their Synchron Brass is anything to go by, it should give some varying colors to the existing soloists.


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## Soundbed (Dec 28, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I just did a quick play through of the opening flute and oboe lines from Princess Leia's Theme with Synchron Flute / Oboe 1, CSW Solo Flute / Oboe, and Berlin Flute / Oboe 1 (SINE). They all sound very different - I wouldn't say any sounds "better". In fact, I found CSW actually was probably my least favorite of the three for these lines. CSW's flute was shrill and piercing on that top G in the melody and the Oboe has sort of a honky rambunctious quality that is unsuited for this line. I found the flute legato to also be quite bumpy surprisingly (in both legato modes). I liked the Synchron Flute the best, both with the regular and espressivo legatos. The SINE flute was also nice. For the Oboe, Synchron's Oboe 1 has quite a smooth timbre to it - quite nice for a soloist line like this, but perhaps could be slightly more nasally. The SINE oboe had a nice balance in that way.
> 
> I am looking forward to the additional solo instruments VSL will provide in 2022 - if their Synchron Brass is anything to go by, it should give some varying colors to the existing soloists.


Fascinating. I am interested in doing more compare and contrast. Thanks for your inputs.


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## synergy543 (Dec 28, 2021)

holywilly said:


> For Berlin woodwinds soloists, just turn down the volume and insert a nice reverb will sound as beautiful as true soloists. The bass oboe is truly a hidden gem.


Yes, but where is the Berlin SINE Contra Bassoon? They seem to have left him back in the Kontact Exp A lib (he is in BOB) and just ported the Clarinet and Bass Clarinet over to SINE full Lib. Fortunately, VSL has this covered.


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## Soundbed (Dec 28, 2021)

holywilly said:


> I truly wish Synchron Woodwinds can be lyrical, otherwise it’s a perfect woodwinds library from VSL.


The more I play with them, the less “lyrical” they sound to my ears.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 28, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> The more I play with them, the less “lyrical” they sound to my ears.


Compared to what? Care to share an example of what you're hearing vs. a library you find more lyrical?


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## synergy543 (Dec 28, 2021)

Nathan, I find that it really helps to make your own patches and utilize the curves. For example, with the Bsn, if you compare with OT Soloist Bsn, you might feel OT is more lyrical out-of-the box (and it is). However, you can get a "similarly" lyrical sound from the VSL Synchron Bsn too with some adjustments. I don't find one necessarily "better" than the other but they are different and both useful in different circumstances. Try this patch just using the mod wheel for expression for example.


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## Zanshin (Dec 28, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I am looking forward to the additional solo instruments VSL will provide in 2022 - if their Synchron Brass is anything to go by, it should give some varying colors to the existing soloists.





ALittleNightMusic said:


> Compared to what? Care to share an example of what you're hearing vs. a library you find more lyrical?


I am looking forward to the additional instruments as well. I don't have an example ready but to me Syz WW is way more lyrical than Sy WW, especially the Syz WW unlooped legatos. If I HAD to choose right now I'd choose Syz WW no contest. Having both is nice though, and the ensembles are great. I feel the same with Syz Dim Brass vs Sy Brass too. I'm afraid to try the VI brass that hasn't been Syz'd.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 28, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> I am looking forward to the additional instruments as well. I don't have an example ready but to me Syz WW is way more lyrical than Sy WW, especially the Syz WW unlooped legatos. If I HAD to choose right now I'd choose Syz WW no contest. Having both is nice though, and the ensembles are great. I feel the same with Syz Dim Brass vs Sy Brass too. I'm afraid to try the VI brass that hasn't been Syz'd.


Interesting - I was looking at the articulations the other day and Synchron has nearly all of them - plus ensembles (which Sync-ized doesn’t). I remember trialing Sync-ized and didn’t feel it beat BWW. Will need to spend more time comparing Synchron.

BWW Soloists are supposed to be the king of lyrical - but I don’t have them.


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## Zanshin (Dec 28, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Interesting - I was looking at the articulations the other day and Synchron has nearly all of them - plus ensembles (which Sync-ized doesn’t). I remember trialing Sync-ized and didn’t feel it beat BWW. Will need to spend more time comparing Synchron.
> 
> BWW Soloists are supposed to be the king of lyrical - but I don’t have them.


I don't consider myself a WW guy by a long shot, and I've hesitated to say much about Sy WW so far because I really haven't explored it fully - so take what I say with a grain of salt, this stuff is super subjective. I think @holywilly basically said the same at release though. I don't have BWW, but from demo's I feel like we are splitting hairs because they all are so good. 

This has the old ensembles btw:




__





SINGLE WOODWIND PACKS - Vienna Symphonic Library


Single woodwinds to expand and enhance your scope of orchestral tone colours.




www.vsl.co.at





I demo'd the Syz ensembles (from the Special Editions) a few months ago and the new Sy WW ones are much better IMO. It's not cut and dry, A > B unfortunately, that's why I keep saying I'm happy to have both lol. Another one, Alto Flute, I can't decide which I like better.

I want to try Berlin Soloists too but @jbuhler and others have said it's not great (at least the sine port).


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## jbuhler (Dec 28, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> I want to try Berlin Soloists too but @jbuhler and others have said it's not great (at least the sine port).


Yeah, I’m not happy with the Sine port and I can’t get them close to how they sound in the official demos. @Jett Hitt has experienced similar issues, I think. I do think they sound good in mock-ups and demos I’ve heard with the Kontakt versions. 

I will say that some of it is likely user error because I prefer wetter instruments, and these instruments currently offer little help out of the box. And some of it is the lack of Teldex IR, which is included with the Kontakt version. But I find there are also a lot of wonky legato transitions, and that’s something I’m not nearly as attentive to as most here on the forum so if I’m bugged by them I have to imagine most others will be as well.


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## Jett Hitt (Dec 28, 2021)

Yes, I found them to be very difficult to work with. I have used them successfully, but jeez there’s a lot of futzing. And I was never delighted with the final result.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 28, 2021)

Jett Hitt said:


> Yes, I found them to be very difficult to work with. I have used them successfully, but jeez there’s a lot of futzing. And I was never delighted with the final result.


Do you have the SINE version or Kontakt? It seems you can still buy the Kontakt versions - wonder if they’re better. The original libraries had a lot of praise.


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## Jett Hitt (Dec 28, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Do you have the SINE version or Kontakt? It seems you can still buy the Kontakt versions - wonder if they’re better. The original libraries had a lot of praise.


I have the Sine version. For OT, Kontakt is dead. They’ll either make the Sine stuff work, or they’ll be dead.


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## Soundbed (Dec 28, 2021)

Here's a solo flute compare / contrast. From what I am hearing, I prefer CSW, but I totally am interested in other perceptions of Synchron.





ALittleNightMusic said:


> Compared to what? Care to share an example of what you're hearing vs. a library you find more lyrical?


Compared to CSW and Claire from 8Dio. Synchron feels / sounds a bit clinical and less alive, relatively, to me. Claire is difficult to place in an ensemble and CSW has crossfade concerns but Synchron's strength seems to be its consistency, which sort of puts a kibosh on the life of the performance. It's so consistent it ends up lacking some of the humanity, relatively. (I was also playing Synchron against Paul's demo of Spitfire Studio Woodwinds, and Spitfire sounded more alive, like CSW.)

The types of pieces I'm looking to make with woodwinds are similar to the children's program Stillwater on Apple TV+ 

These have little gestures with winds that basically "breathe life" into the lives of the main characters, but they are brief and gentle and pleasant.

Spitfire Studio Woodwinds and CSW seem quite close, to me. Synchron Woodwinds seems like it would be adequate, but sound more like a mockup waiting for the players to actually record it ... at least that's the way I'm hearing it today. My mind could change of course!





synergy543 said:


> Nathan, I find that it really helps to make your own patches and utilize the curves. For example, with the Bsn, if you compare with OT Soloist Bsn, you might feel OT is more lyrical out-of-the box (and it is). However, you can get a "similarly" lyrical sound from the VSL Synchron Bsn too with some adjustments. I don't find one necessarily "better" than the other but they are different and both useful in different circumstances. Try this patch just using the mod wheel for expression for example.


I will take some time with this. I'm not sure what you mean by "utilize the curves" exactly ... I've spent time with Synchron controls and basically out of the box CSW feels more expressive, to me, although I acknowledge that Synchron might have 3-5 controls that could help me feel like it becomes more expressive eventually.


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## Rudianos (Dec 28, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Here's a solo flute compare / contrast. From what I am hearing, I prefer CSW, but I totally am interested in other perceptions of Synchron.



Yeah that demo really shows how natural and fluid CSW is. IDK what is going on with Synchron. The vibrato arc is bizarre. The reverb in Synchron does not work for me. It seems very awkward legato. Never sat next to a flute player that sounded like that. Closed my eyes and CSW was like I was right on the stage with the flautist. Like any instrument though, even great real ones they will have their quirks ... keep working with it - until your return period is up. Not sold though.


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## muziksculp (Dec 28, 2021)

@Soundbed,

Your Synchron Flute performance in that video demo comparing it to CSW, is horrible. Sorry.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 28, 2021)

Jett Hitt said:


> I have the Sine version. For OT, Kontakt is dead. They’ll either make the Sine stuff work, or they’ll be dead.


While I agree in concept, I'm not holding my breath on execution. Soloists for SINE came out 10-11 months ago? No improvements, Teldex IR still missing, etc. They took almost 12 months to fix mic merge on BSS? They've released a number of SINE releases back to back - and ALL of them need work. But their philosophy also seems to be "these are improved!" - their walkthrough for soloists for example says just that. That doesn't breed much confidence - they may not think something needs to be fixed.


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## synergy543 (Dec 28, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by "utilize the curves" exactly ... I've spent time with Synchron controls and basically out of the box CSW feels more expressive, to me, although I acknowledge that Synchron might have 3-5 controls that could help me feel like it becomes more expressive eventually.


Sorry, I didn't explain well. To get expressive control from the Synchron instruments, you have to control several parameters that interact with each other. In the control panel, they each have response curves which you can adjust. I find it helps to use the control curves to vary the amount each control moves with CC input so that you can achieve repeatable expressive dynamics. I'm sure there are others ways to work too, but this helps me when working with Synchron instruments.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 28, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Here's a solo flute compare / contrast. From what I am hearing, I prefer CSW, but I totally am interested in other perceptions of Synchron.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think this shows how different libraries react to different lines or programming tendencies / tweaks. Here is a familiar melody played (individually) on three different flutes. Will let folks make up their minds on which sounds best - pay attention to those transitions though.

View attachment LeiaFlute.mp3



1. Synchron
2. CSW
3. BWW SINE Flute 1


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## Soundbed (Dec 28, 2021)

synergy543 said:


> Sorry, I didn't explain well. To get expressive control from the Synchron instruments, you have to control several parameters that interact with each other. In the control panel, they each have response curves which you can adjust. I find it helps to use the control curves to vary the amount each control moves with CC input so that you can achieve repeatable expressive dynamics. I'm sure there are others ways to work too, but this helps me when working with Synchron instruments.


ok that makes sense! I have heard this before, and I've tried a few things ... it might be that Synchron is not for me, if the best way to get them to be expressive is to control multiple parameters at once. I did do a previous video where I was playing with multiple controls (the OP in this thread) and so far I'm simply getting more immediate and better sounding results (to my ears) from CSW, with fewer controls. The Vib Xfade only turns vibrato on and off (like CSW), the timbre adjust is basically a hipass filter, expression is volume, mod wheel is what I am using, in various regions of its range ... I'm wondering what I am missing. Should I be turning up the humanize sliders, perhaps?

~

Here's another attempt at comparing CSW Oboe and Cor Anglais with Synchron and Infinite Woodwinds as well. I also played a bit with the timbre adjust in Synchron.

The Infinite Series is interesting because I just want to play with it, but CSW is sounding better overall to me still.


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## Soundbed (Dec 28, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I think this shows how different libraries react to different lines or programming tendencies / tweaks. Here is a familiar melody played (individually) on three different flutes. Will let folks make up their minds on which sounds best - pay attention to those transitions though.
> 
> View attachment LeiaFlute.mp3
> 
> ...


For sure! Number 2's transitions can sound pretty different with a different performance:

View attachment CSW Line.mp3


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## muziksculp (Dec 28, 2021)

CSW flute sounds the least realistic timbre wise. Too wooly, and lacks focus.

Synchron Flute, and Berlin Woodwinds Solo Flutes have a much more realistic timbre that are more focused, and defined.


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## Rudianos (Dec 28, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I think this shows how different libraries react to different lines or programming tendencies /


they all have merits, and all were good. I love the way 2 creates a dynamic dimension and 3 draws you in to listen closer. 1 has some very smooth tone. Less key noise, which we should not hear as much as we do sometimes.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 29, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> For sure! Number 2's transitions can sound pretty different with a different performance:
> 
> View attachment CSW Line.mp3


I was using expressive legato and tried all the speeds but all gave me the “bump”. What did you do?



Rudianos said:


> they all have merits, and all were good. I love the way 2 creates a dynamic dimension and 3 draws you in to listen closer. 1 has some very smooth tone. Less key noise, which we should not hear as much as we do sometimes.


Agree - that was my original point. CSW has VERY intense vibrato - not always what’s needed. Synchron has a smooth pure tone to it - also not always what’s needed. SINE is…well SINE 😂


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## Rudianos (Dec 29, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> ee - that was my original point. CSW has VERY intense vibrato - not always what’s needed. Synchron has a smooth pure tone to it - also not always what’s needed. SINE is…well SINE 😂


I was playing SINE oboe earlier. A few legato issues that are interesting. Particularly the high B to C. Literally 1 finger up on the instrument should be smooth as can be. Tried playing every which way. Oh but C to B 1 finger down, smooth. Need to document these and get them over. Do these Vienna oboes not have the same trouble?


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## Soundbed (Dec 29, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I was using expressive legato and tried all the speeds but all gave me the “bump”. What did you do?


Oh that hard transition — like it's snapping down on the note — is what you're calling a bump? Ok, yeah I was avoiding it somehow except for the last transition. lol ... I feel like there was a round robin for most of those transitions; I was able to get them some of the time and avoid them other times. I'm not sure what is causing them yet (it's not necessarily "speed" as in velocity changing the speed indicator on the GUI, but it might have to do with speed of new note on events per duration of time) ... but I do like having them available and knowing there's a way to avoid them as well. If I can figure out what I did. Here's the MIDI in picture form ... most of the velocities are low ("slow" in the GUI) but again that's not necessarily what determines whether that transition is a "hard and fast" one, you're calling it a "bump". It was the expressive mode:


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## Soundbed (Dec 29, 2021)

Rudianos said:


> they all have merits, and all were good. I love the way 2 creates a dynamic dimension and 3 draws you in to listen closer. 1 has some very smooth tone. Less key noise, which we should not hear as much as we do sometimes.





ALittleNightMusic said:


> Agree - that was my original point. CSW has VERY intense vibrato - not always what’s needed. Synchron has a smooth pure tone to it - also not always what’s needed. SINE is…well SINE 😂


Yeah this is why I was originally thinking Synchron would be a good compliment to CSW. I thought more options would be better. But my moneymoon — er, honeymoon period might be ending.

The CSS vibrato has definitely become a bit much for me (over the years) but I still like that strong CSW vibrato.

The SINE example you played was interesting as well. At first I liked it, then the more I listened those transitions got a little distracting. Thanks for sharing them! All I need now is a version with Spitfire Studio lol!!


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## NoamL (Dec 29, 2021)

The Timbre Adjust feature is pretty cool!

These Synchron samples have pristine recording quality & consistency. But I feel the musicianship has been "ironed out" a bit to create these samples. For wind and brass libraries, I would like to hear more of the musician's personality as any wind or brass player in the orchestra could be asked to play a solo.

For more lyrical winds I still think Berlin Winds (the old, old version) or Spitfire Symphonic are good choices. I also really like CSW for its consistent high quality. There are passages where I'd pick SSW over CSW for exposed solos but it's material dependent. Retongued notes are crucial for winds, and CSW nails 'em.


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## Soundbed (Dec 29, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> CSW flute sounds the least realistic timbre wise. Too wooly, and lacks focus.
> 
> Synchron Flute, and Berlin Woodwinds Solo Flutes have a much more realistic timbre that are more focused, and defined.


I disagree on the "focus" — Synchron sounds the least focused to me.

Not sure what wooly sounds like in these examples, I don't hear "wool" in any of them. (?)

Timbre-wise I prefer CSW and Berlin to Synchron.



NoamL said:


> The Timbre Adjust feature is pretty cool!
> 
> These Synchron samples have pristine recording quality & consistency. But I feel the musicianship has been "ironed out" a bit to create these samples. For wind and brass libraries, I would like to hear more of the musician's personality as any wind or brass player in the orchestra could be asked to play a solo.
> 
> For more lyrical winds I still think Berlin Winds (the old, old version) or Spitfire Symphonic are good choices. I also really like CSW for its consistent high quality. There are passages where I'd pick SSW over CSW for exposed solos but it's material dependent. Retongued notes are crucial for winds, and CSW nails 'em.


Your thoughts on Synchron and personality are similar to my own.

Because I missed the Berlin Kontakt sales, I might still grab Spitfire someday. I'll listen to Symphonic again to see if I think the mics might be workable. You don't have the Spitfire Studio Woodwinds?


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## NoamL (Dec 29, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> I'll listen to Symphonic again to see if I think the mics might be workable. You don't have the Spitfire Studio Woodwinds?


I have both and much prefer the Symphonic ones just because of the beautiful sound of AIR!


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## Zanshin (Dec 29, 2021)

@Soundbed since you are considering returning Sy WW you should email sales and see if they’ll issue you a demo for Syz WW. The worst they can say is no


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## Soundbed (Dec 29, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> @Soundbed since you are considering returning Sy WW you should email sales and see if they’ll issue you a demo for Syz WW. The worst they can say is no


😂
And before you said, “I demo'd the Syz ensembles (from the Special Editions) a few months ago and the new Sy WW ones are much better IMO” 😄



NoamL said:


> I have both and much prefer the Symphonic ones just because of the beautiful sound of AIR!


I’m concerned I’d be shortening the tail. My use case is like the Stillwater clip I posted in #37


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## Zanshin (Dec 29, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> 😂
> And before you said, “I demo'd the Syz ensembles (from the Special Editions) a few months ago and the new Sy WW ones are much better IMO” 😄


Those are from a different (related) product. This is what I think you should demo (if possible):





__





SYNCHRON-ized WOODWINDS - Vienna Symphonic Library


Our Woodwinds collection offers you a broad selection of orchestral woodwinds. Includes flute, oboe, clarinet and bassoon recorded solo and in three-player ensembles, as well as piccolo and alto flute, two English-horns, small clarinet in Eb, bass clarinet and contrabassoon.




www.vsl.co.at





All separate instruments, similar to how BWW is.

The ensembles I mentioned that I did not love are from:





__





SINGLE WOODWIND PACKS - Vienna Symphonic Library


Single woodwinds to expand and enhance your scope of orchestral tone colours.




www.vsl.co.at





I've just cherry picked a few items from that package (alto flute, bass flute, and oboe d'amore).


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## Soundbed (Dec 29, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> Those are from a different (related) product. This is what I think you should demo (if possible):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ah! Now I understand thanks.


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## JonS (Dec 29, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Ah! Now I understand thanks.


I think they all sound nice and it’s understandable that each person will prefer one sound over another. They each can get the job done.


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## Soundbed (Dec 29, 2021)

synergy543 said:


> Nathan, I find that it really helps to make your own patches and utilize the curves. For example, with the Bsn, if you compare with OT Soloist Bsn, you might feel OT is more lyrical out-of-the box (and it is). However, you can get a "similarly" lyrical sound from the VSL Synchron Bsn too with some adjustments. I don't find one necessarily "better" than the other but they are different and both useful in different circumstances. Try this patch just using the mod wheel for expression for example.


I like your preset!

Also I found the curves page you're talking about!

I've also been experimenting with the humanize sliders, and I think I'll keep them in play because they add a bit of variety that is sometimes lacking for me.

And your mic position from the Surround group got me playing with the mic positions as well.

I tried setting up the English Horn similar to your preset and it is indeed more playable to me.

That said, I'm not sure all these things are "enough" to swing me back on the VSL side ... they certainly might help others though.

For others' benefit, @synergy543 mapped the mod wheel to Expression, Vel XF and Timbre Adjust and bend the curve for expression "up" a bit. So that most of the travel for expression stays near the top while Vel XF and Timbre adjust stay linear. I might bend the Timbre adjust "up" as well to keep it a little brighter through most of the fader travel.

Thanks!!
View attachment vsl mod link.mp4


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## Robert_G (Dec 29, 2021)

I'll jump in.

I own Synchron Woodwinds Full library, CSW, and Claire.....and another woodwinds library which is collecting dust on my storage drive from the company that employs the guy who 'is really excited today' about their overpriced overrated libraries.

*Lets start with this. I am very happy with all 3 libraries.*

Synchron Woodwinds Full is a wonderful library designed for a full orchestra. It does what it is supposed to do well. Consistent woodwinds (even if a tad...just a tad....sterile) are just fine for that. When you use Synchron Strings Pro and Synchron Brass.......Synchron Woodwinds go well with it.

Another thing is that I have yet to find a walkthrough showing how to properly adjust the room presets for any of the Synchron libs. There is more to it then you might think, but when done right (especially on the Surround to Stereo Downmix ones), it adds a whole new dimension of character. I'm guessing quite a few people here who have Synchron libs haven't figured it out yet how to finesse the room presets just right.

With that said....on no planet does Synchron Woodwinds have the life and character of CSW. If I was writing with Synchron Elite Strings....I would probably try to blend in CSW instead of Synchron Woodwinds, but when using Synchron Strings Pro.....Synchron Woodwinds are my first choice.

Another thing about CSW, is that it is not even close to being as comprehensive as Synchron Woodwinds. Good luck matching the natural crescendos of Synchron Woodwinds, etc, etc, etc with your mod wheel. It won't happen.

As for OT Woodwinds.....they sound nice, but they are showing their age and the SINE player is a ticking time bomb.....no thanks.


I choose my woodwinds like this:

1. With my full large room orchestra compositions, I will almost always use the Synchron libraries now....that goes double for classical style music.

2. If I'm looking for more of a Studio mid size room sound...It will always be Cinematic Studio libraries.....although I sometimes substitute in Light and Sound Chamber Strings because they are simply awesome.

3. If I want a real intimate piece in a smaller room, I am using 8Dio Claire more and more with Harmonic Subtones (Best Service) Emotional solo strings.

All 3 have their purpose and a permanent spot on my SSD.


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## Soundbed (Dec 29, 2021)

Robert_G said:


> I'll jump in.
> 
> I own Synchron Woodwinds Full library, CSW, and Claire.....and another woodwinds library which is collecting dust on my storage drive from the company that employs the guy who 'is really excited today' about their overpriced overrated libraries.
> 
> ...


Wow this is really great advice and perspective, thank you! I was thinking of Synchron in an orchestral (larger ensembles) context for a while. But the more I played, the more I figured I could probably use Opus for that… maybe. 

Question on 8Dio Claire: do you find they play well as a group? Or rather, do you need to play each individually, working through little timing differences between them? I find I don’t have success copying a midi part across instruments and need to replay each instrument and adjust timing to get Claire to sound “together”.

Asking because copying midi is presumably a strength of CSW now or soon and certainly should be a strength for Synchron. Some will balk but on a deadline it’s all about time.


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## synergy543 (Dec 30, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> I like your preset!
> 
> Also I found the curves page you're talking about!
> 
> ...


I'm glad it was of help. I find that I need to make adjustments for each instrument separately depending upon the character and response you need. There is no "standard" setting IOW. However, it doesn't take me long to make the desired adjustments and I appreciate the flexibility to tailor each patch. As I said, this is just one way to work, which I prefer as I get real-time results.

I think others will make adjustments and CC curves inside the DAW to shape the sounds and this is just another way of achieving the same results.


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## holywilly (Dec 30, 2021)

Thanks @synergy543 and @Soundbed for the tips and tricks of making Synchron Woodwinds expressive and lyrical, I finally re-purchase the library. I will start tweaking my own presets (which I already made at the first purchase) by applying the tips and tricks were discussed. 

I really love the tone of Synchron Woodwinds, so detailed and pristine. Can’t wait for the second solo winds early next year.


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## Larry Dickstein (Dec 30, 2021)

Is the vibrato adjustable in CSW? If so, how are the transitions from non-vib to vib?


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## Soundbed (Dec 30, 2021)

Larry Dickstein said:


> Is the vibrato adjustable in CSW? If so, how are the transitions from non-vib to vib?


It’s a quick on off crossfade. Check the middle of this vid for an example: 

Vibrato Sample Approaches (CSW, VSL, Infinite Woodwinds)


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## Larry Dickstein (Dec 30, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> It’s a quick on off crossfade. Check the middle of this vid for an example:
> 
> Vibrato Sample Approaches (CSW, VSL, Infinite Woodwinds)



Thanks, Soundbed


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## Robert_G (Dec 30, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Wow this is really great advice and perspective, thank you! I was thinking of Synchron in an orchestral (larger ensembles) context for a while. But the more I played, the more I figured I could probably use Opus for that… maybe.



You're welcome. I'm not sure I'd use OPUS over Synchron though. Maybe as an occasional alternative......the ease of using the Synchron player is superior (and much faster) in every way compared to Play.



Soundbed said:


> Question on 8Dio Claire: do you find they play well as a group? Or rather, do you need to play each individually, working through little timing differences between them? I find I don’t have success copying a midi part across instruments and need to replay each instrument and adjust timing to get Claire to sound “together”.
> 
> Asking because copying midi is presumably a strength of CSW now or soon and certainly should be a strength for Synchron. Some will balk but on a deadline it’s all about time.


I generally use Claire for solos and the odd light accompaniment in soft intimate music (where other Claire instruments are used). I'll use more than one Claire instrument in a single piece, but I won't play 2 melodies at a time with different Claire instruments....at least not very often....

Copying midi from one instrument to another is not a strength for Claire.....but I don't think it was ever intended to be. Each note is played with it's own lyrical emotion. Use the patch you want and then program the midi to work for you.....it's what makes Claire instrument special.


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## Soundbed (Dec 30, 2021)

Robert_G said:


> I'm not sure I'd use OPUS over Synchron though. Maybe as an occasional alternative......the ease of using the Synchron player is superior (and much faster) in every way compared to Play.


Right, it's only that I already own CSW, Infinite WW, Solo, Opus, Solo and some others, and I'm considering returning Synchron Woodwinds in the next couple days.

I was doing some compare / contrast with Opus using the main articulations and sonically it’s … not crazy far off from Synchron. In context. At least after a cursory glance.


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