# Will EIS teach me composing from A to Z?



## Johnny22 (Oct 20, 2009)

Hello Mates.

As I've already told, I am studying music not for long, mainly self reading music theory books, once per week I take a lesson with an music theory teacher here in my town, I can read notes both treble and bass clef fluently, I know how to construct a major and minor scale on every note, basic triad chords, is not a problem.

But what I have difficulty with is how to really construct a piece, how to create a cool progression and create a nice melody line, also letting the harmony move and not be static etc.

I want to understand music more easily, something that teaches me, ok you know know how to construct an major scale on D, now I show a way you could use that scale, to create a nice harmonic progression, how to create melody with that scale etc.

Just learning how to go from a to z, will this course teach me composing in a more easier way, than Tchaikovsky harmony book for example ( I don't understand a thing from that book)

Cheers!


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## musicpete (Oct 20, 2009)

Hmmmmm, besides what you are doing already I would humbly suggest the following:

1) Score study. LOTS of score study. And then some more. Try learning to take apart musical pieces into their constructions blocks: Melody, Harmony, Rythm, Dynamics, Tone Color. Then learn how those are creatively combined by composers you like to create interesting "form".

2) Listen a lot to music and learn to take the music apart while you listen. Learn to listen "actively" in contrast to passive enjoyment.

3) Piano reductions. Learn to create those from simple pieces first. Again, use them to learn about the horizontal and vertical structure of a piece.

4) Compose lots of music. Don't worry about it being crap in the beginning. Just remember that there are plenty of musicians out there who are doing even worse and actually making a living out of it. 
Seriously though: You must write a lot of music, allow yourself to make errors. You must allow yourself to write complete folders and filing cabinets of crappy music which you'll never show to anyone - but which allowed you to learn. Believe me, all good composers have plenty of those corpses in their cellars... 

And learn to be very, very, VERY hard on yourself (of course without getting frustrated) so that you prevent yourself from becoming complacent and satisfied with where you got.


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## gsilbers (Oct 20, 2009)

Well , because this forum focuses more on film style scores id say EIS is pretty cool for that. 
because ,there is no "progressions" in EIS just like in film music you dont follow a specific key or set of chords. 
you could learn the same w/ or w/o EIS . 
EIS is like a parallel universe (o) that deals with the same "stuff" as regular music theory.. some like it better others can do music w/o it. some poeple really appreciate it and learn better with it, others can do a lot with "regular" music thoery and "jazz" musi thoery like in berklee. 

the only thing i recomend is that you and your teacher really talk and have a good comunication about the structure of the lessons. really talk about how much is each class and for how long and what includes in EACH class. i had a bad experience with that aspect of the EIS course. 

but with EIS you get to know really well your notes. a alot of knowing the intervals among all notes. so it really grounds you into think in another way. 
thus then you start seeing and doing different progressions. 

you might also look into jack smalleys' composing for film book which shows why some progressions sounds that way in film music. and i think he gives lessons as well but dont know if by skype. 
theres also some books from berklee college of music like the regulars thoery which is different than classical theory and then there are some re harmonization books.


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## Johnny22 (Oct 20, 2009)

Thanks musicpete, this are very good tips, I do listen to a lot different music and try to hear how the composer uses instrument colors and tempo etc, to produce an ''emotion or effect''.

I don't have much film scores, some piano sheets, I will try yo analyze them with my teacher when he agrees to, he wants to move slowly, because he tells me that I really really have to learn the basics, intervals, scales, triads etc.

gsilbersm thanks man, I already ordered the smalley book, but do you study EIS at this moment? If so, in which book are you, does it make composing ''easier'', what I mean with that, is that it's all kinds of composing tools right?

So it ought to make composing easier, does it learn you how to compose and bass part or an melodic line e.g. fantasy theme or comedy theme etc?

Cheers


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## rJames (Oct 20, 2009)

Johnny22, first let me say how sorry, I am for the other day. Sorry, sorry. Never meant to hurt.

I can tell you that EIS does not teach you how to construct a "cool progression." But you are right on the money for asking. 

Cause I think that, not only is music theory and practice important but also "cool".

T Newman's stuff has both cool and excellent. IMHO Powell's stuff is very cool in something like Bourne but he also has the composition chops as shown in lots of his work. I believe there is less use (at least right now) for the extreme musical chops of a Williams than there is for the "cool" of Harry Gregson Williams.

Being good at both is where its at.

The cool factor is about style. You can't learn that in EIS. It is a parallel study to EIS.

You get "cool" from listening, analyzing and more listening and analyzing.

But for a clear understanding and a thorough practical use of the 12 chromatic notes, EIS is a great way to learn.

I believe it is a short cut to a greater understanding of music. But the shortcut bypasses all history and all style and (pretty much) rhythm. You supply the rhythm which means that you don't have the models of great rhythmic motif.


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## Frederick Russ (Oct 20, 2009)

Some knowledge of music theory does help but with work it is possible to simultaneously learn EIS while learning the basics of music structure etc. Emphasis on work though - there are no easy instant solutions. Have you considered going to school for music to get a solid understanding of what it is you're wanting to accomplish?


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## Johnny22 (Oct 20, 2009)

Thanks rJames, I apologize myself for saying things that I never have meant, I hope we are good now.

Frederick, I'm working full time job, so no time for going to music school, I hoped more for an online lesson via skype or so, by chance I saw this thead about EIS, and almost evrybody was positive in the result they achieved, so I thought I'm asking about it.

I contacted some teachers via email, but all I get is ''this email doesn't exist anymore'', perhaps the teacher emails should be updated on the eis site.

I will see if a teacher respons and perhaps do a demo lesson, seeing if it's something for me.

Thanks everybody


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## Johnny22 (Oct 20, 2009)

Thanks, looks interesting, I will look for that book 

Cheers


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## Hannes_F (Oct 20, 2009)

synergy543 @ Tue Oct 20 said:


> Johnny, something else you might consider for self-stufy is a little $12 book called http://www.amazon.com/Study-Counterpoint-Johann-Joseph-Parnassum/dp/0393002772/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1256072975&sr=8-1 (Study of Counterpoint by Fux). It is a very small book and easy to read in a dialog between Master and student. However little grasshopper, to benefit from it, you must also do the exercises yourself.



In case you can read german (old german though) you can download it here for free:

https://fedora.phaidra.univie.ac.at/fed ... Asset/view

I must say it is almost incredible that some musician wrote a book that is still recommended 300 years later ... and on top of that he originally wrote it _in latin_. What a groundbreaking achievement of a sharp mind.

However it could be the case that Spud Murphy's works will also recommended in 300 years. We don't know.


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## lux (Oct 21, 2009)

i think nothing teachs you composition from A to Z. No way.

Composition is a tough process, opften based on the assimilation of an entire human musical patrimony, other times comes from the notes your keyboard screams when you acciddentally get your coffee cup hitting the keys and melting stuff everywhere. 

EIS is a powerful tool. It has a bit of a geometric approach that can sound weird. 

I personally always considered it to be a second eye on the music with a different approach. We believe it or not even the most difficult music has a tricky basement, just sometimes we're unable to get it. EIS helps build connections between notes that make a sense, or can. And its very useful when you just wear your hat and want to make a walk in town without having a specific direction in mind. 

Eis gives you lot of streets to walk, and this is in general fun.

Luca


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## bryla (Oct 21, 2009)

I don't know EIS, but I have the Fux book, and that's great. I also have William Russo's book 'Composition - a new approach'. This one's great for learning about the handicraft of composition.


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## Johnny22 (Oct 21, 2009)

Thanks Mates, appreciate the help. I really want to do a demo lesson via skype, just talking with an teacher, what my goals are, and how he/she can help me, and if EIS is not something for me (for whatever reason) then I will continue with my traditional music theory lessons.

Cheers!


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## Leandro Gardini (Oct 21, 2009)

lux @ Tue Oct 20 said:


> i think nothing teachs you composition from A to Z. No way.
> 
> Composition is a tough process, opften based on the assimilation of an entire human musical patrimony, other times comes from the notes your keyboard screams when you acciddentally get your coffee cup hitting the keys and melting stuff everywhere.
> 
> ...


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## veetguitar (Oct 22, 2009)

As a relative beginner with EIS (5month), I can confirm that it helped me a lot and wil help much more in the time coming. When I started out with orchestral samples more than a year ago, I was kind of overwhelmed by it both technically and musically. Next, I browsed the for composers websites and got an overview what people are doing. A few dozen storm drum-driven demos later I made a clearcut decision that I dont want to be a third rate imitator of Hans Zimmer or others but rather take my time to develop something that does not depend on copying only. 
So no shortcuts for me.
EIS is a solid backbone for whatever I am doing right now and in the future. 
If you listen to what leogardini or C. Sharmat are doing you might agree that they do not need to resort too cliches and stereotyped formulas. It sounds fresh and original. And thats exactly what I value regard as most important. 
Of course- that said- this doesnt mean somebody else with a totally different approach can get get equally good results.


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## StrangeCat (Oct 22, 2009)

Yo Johnny22!

ok first learn the scales,
Then learn the circle of fifths,
then learn voice leading between soprano, alto, tenor and bass.
At the same time learn about time signatures so you understand accents, rhythms, etc.
also learn about melodies, phrases, period construction(cadences)

after all that bud tackle this EIS stuff.


Good Luck!


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## jsaras (Oct 22, 2009)

StrangeCat @ Thu Oct 22 said:


> Yo Johnny22!
> ok first learn the scales,
> Then learn the circle of fifths,
> then learn voice leading between soprano, alto, tenor and bass.
> also learn about melodies, phrases, period construction(cadences)



All of this is included at the very beginning of EIS and much more. The main difference is that you're not locked into keys and all bass movements are used from the get-go. If one chooses to use bass notes and chord types that fit within a single key signature, that is very doable. All doors are open within the EIS framework.


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## lux (Oct 22, 2009)

leogardini @ Wed Oct 21 said:


> lux @ Tue Oct 20 said:
> 
> 
> > i think nothing teachs you composition from A to Z. No way.
> ...



i used the word geometric just to avoid using the word "mathematical". I know books 1 and 2 are geometric but thats not what i was meaning. 

I mean that EIS implies formulas, that often you apply as given fact. And that works for subsequent books too. So it needs a good memory for formulas and a bit of an ordered and disciplined brain. 

Thats it.


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## Johnny22 (Oct 22, 2009)

I talked to David Blumberg and Richard Firth, I will do demo lesson with both of them, just share my ideas about my goals and so, and I will see with whom I can feel comfortable to begin this exciting course.

Cheers!


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## jsaras (Oct 22, 2009)

That's fantastic. I would urge you to stick with it through at least the end of Book 2 before you ultimately decide to continue or stop. 

Book 1, although not terribly long, can seem to be insulting to your intelligence if already have a good grasp of traditional theory. But there is information there that you willl use every day of your life, especially the information on non-chord tones and the twelve basic scales. One of the things that makes this course so great is that it assumes that you know virtually nothing. 

Lesson 1 in Book 2 is a "game-changer". Even if you thought you had a very firm grasp of triads you'll learn something new about voiceleading that is simple, powerful and ultimately very freeing. It all expands very naturally and logically from there.

Best wishes to you,
J


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## Johnny22 (Oct 22, 2009)

Thank J 

Who is your teacher, if I may ask?


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## mducharme (Oct 22, 2009)

Consider the traditional classical method as well, there is probably a teacher local to you who can teach you harmony and counterpoint.


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## jsaras (Oct 22, 2009)

Johnny22 @ Thu Oct 22 said:


> Thank J
> 
> Who is your teacher, if I may ask?



David Blumberg


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## Craig Sharmat (Oct 22, 2009)

The thing about EIS is it teaches you jazz harmony along with classical so you kind of get 2 things in one. If you have no interest in jazz you may find some of the approach not what you want to hear. If however you are not into jazz but like the turn of the century French composers like Ravel and Debussy then EIS will give you a lot of tools.


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## mf (Oct 22, 2009)

You can only compose the music you understand, at the level you understand it. Nobody and nothing can teach you to compose. Pick your style(s) of music and try to understand them the best you can. Take down on paper LOTS of pieces and look at them carefully, play them, really get them and what makes them work.
It's like writing - you first need to understand how words are used in sentences, sentences in phrases, phrases in paragraphs, etc. 
You said you know the rudiments. Can you play a Bach 2 voice Invention? or a Mozart Minuet? or a Paul Simon song? If you can, then you can learn everything else by yourself, all you need is brains.


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## Craig Sharmat (Oct 23, 2009)

The idea that self study is the solution for everyone I am afraid is terribly ignorant. There are no methods or non methods that work for all people. In the end one has to do the work to move forward but if you can get help along the way from people who can help make the process simpler why not not take it. Also there are mysteries one may not be able to unlock on their own. If a method can show you an idea one day you had not considered that you love then that is a day you can start using that idea. Maybe you find it on your own 2 yrs down the road and maybe you don't. I'll take that information now thank you.


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## JB78 (Oct 23, 2009)

Craig Sharmat @ Fri Oct 23 said:


> The idea that self study is the solution for everyone I am afraid is terribly ignorant. There are no methods or non methods that work for all people. In the end one has to do the work to move forward but if you can get help along the way from people who can help make the process simpler why not not take it. Also there are mysteries one may not be able to unlock on their own. If a method can show you an idea one day you had not considered that you love then that is a day you can start using that idea. Maybe you find it on your own 2 yrs down the road and maybe you don't. I'll take that information now thank you.



+1!


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## Leandro Gardini (Oct 23, 2009)

Craig Sharmat @ Fri Oct 23 said:


> The idea that self study is the solution for everyone I am afraid is terribly ignorant. There are no methods or non methods that work for all people. In the end one has to do the work to move forward but if you can get help along the way from people who can help make the process simpler why not not take it. Also there are mysteries one may not be able to unlock on their own. If a method can show you an idea one day you had not considered that you love then that is a day you can start using that idea. Maybe you find it on your own 2 yrs down the road and maybe you don't. I'll take that information now thank you.


I wasn´t expecting a direct comment like this coming from you. But as you know, I totally agree!!!
Johnny, I´m glad you made an important decision. After reading your PM I´m sure you are going to love EIS!!!


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## Johnny22 (Oct 23, 2009)

Thanks Richard, appreciate your explanation. I'm really excited to see that EIS has benefited so much people.

I'm now waiting for my book and will see how it goes 

Cheers!


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## Craig Sharmat (Oct 23, 2009)

One word of warning. 

It is easy to get caught up in doing the exercises. Doing just the assignments will not make you a better composer, they will only make you better at doing the exercises. You must find ways to apply what you learn or the whole thing turns into an expensive waste of time. Use what you learn and do not stop with just the lessons!


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## Johnny22 (Oct 23, 2009)

Craig Sharmat @ Fri Oct 23 said:


> One word of warning.
> 
> It is easy to get caught up in doing the exercises. Doing just the assignments will not make you a better composer, they will only make you better at doing the exercises. You must find ways to apply what you learn or the whole thing turns into an expensive waste of time. Use what you learn and do not stop with just the lessons!




Thanks Craig, very good advice. I will try to compose something with each lesson's material, even if it's a short piece or just an piano piece.


Cheers!


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## mf (Oct 23, 2009)

Craig Sharmat @ Fri Oct 23 said:


> The idea that self study is the solution for everyone I am afraid is terribly ignorant.


Yes, it would be terribly ignorant to think that self-study is the solution for everyone. Of course it is not for everyone, hence my explicit hint to brains.
Anyways, my main point was that self-study is the only way to learn anything of importance. 
"Education is an admirable thing, but it is worth noting that there is nothing worth knowing that can be taught." (Oscar Wilde)


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## careyford (Oct 26, 2009)

You're welcome!

+1 on Craig's point.

It's important to do the exercises. You can apply EIS to other compositions. It's also really helpful with most exercises to approach them compositionally/musically.

Richard


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