# Curious about conducting skills



## KingIdiot (Apr 13, 2006)

As I'm purely a learn by doing and reading person and have taught myself everythign I know about music and music production, I've been curious about what condcting skills can offer to someone in my position.

I mean, amd I hoping in vein that one day I could conduct small sections of players (or larger ones). I understand that conducting is a skill on its own, and I'm not saying "now" I'm sayng that one day if I try and teach myself the basics and possibly find players I can torture with me practicng on them.

Is it possible that learning this skill would benefit my compositional skill?

I'm jsut curious about it, and think that it might be possible that it could add to my skill set for fthe future (if there are live players still around)

any people out there actively conducting ensembles?

I'll be perfectly honest,

My first start uin music was learnign the gutar and then "jamming" with bands. The very first drummer I played with was, and is, an incredible drummer and sense of time is impecable. I never had to count and could jsut "play" and he'd figure out different time signatures and work with any accents I provided (if I did), tihs led to many odd time signatures THAT I NEVER COUNTED, so I have very bad habits regarding time and counting. I can now figure out time sigs and even count them, but its not natural. I KNOW that this is a deinite habit I must break to even seriously consider conducting, (any drills and suggestions that I can do to break this habit would be appreciated) but lets jsut say I'm willing to work at it, is it something, since I dont gravitate towards it naturally, that might mean I'm jsut not cut out for conducting?


----------



## Brian Ralston (Apr 13, 2006)

In my opinion...learning how to conduct is a valuble tool. As a composer...it helps me complete the process to be able to lead the orchestra in the performance of something I wrote. To me, the concept of sitting in the booth and allowing someone else lead the expression just does not resonate with me. 

Having said that...unless one is recording with live groups, there is little point to learning how to conduct. Except that with the study of conducting, there is a lot of score preparation and score analysis involved...and everyone can use more of that. 

For someone who does not know how to conduct...I would highly recommend that they do NOT get in front of a group UNTIL they are comfortable with it. A poor conductor can only confuse musicians and lead to a poor performance. I have seen great hollywood groups give poor performances because the conductor was not very good and graceful. 

A good conductor can shape an orchestra's performance in a positive way. With studio and film/TV groups...who are mostly on click tracks, the conductor is less about tempo and more about visual cues to enter...expression of musical lines...dynamics, and of course..rehearsing the group at the beginning of the session to get everyone to perform and understand the piece in the shortest time possible. 

An easy way to begin to learn to conduct (besides attending a university course on the subject) is to just begin watching as many conductors as possible. Buy or rent DVDs with live orchestra performances. Watch the conductor. Some are a bit too ornamental for a studio gig...but there is somethig to learn from a professional's grace and command of the podium. There are some books one can buy to study the basic beat patterns. Practice complete independence of your right arm from your left. Keep your ictus clear (the point where the beat in your arm pattern is). Learn how to conduct a beat with your right and give cues and dynamic gestures independantly with your left at the same time. This is the one area where most people have problems and it is the area where a good conuctor will shine and a poor conductor will struggle. :smile:


----------



## Daryl (Apr 13, 2006)

When I'm working to clicks I always check that I can conduct my clicktracks easily. If I can't conduct them there is no way that the players will be able to play them. I find that it is a useful test.

D


----------



## José Herring (Apr 13, 2006)

Having conducted professionally orchestras such as Vancouvre, Houston, Louisville, and Grand Rapids I can say in all honesty that conducting as a skill is far easier and far less taxing that composing, performing an instrument or even good mixing skills.

If you want to conduct I can give you the one, two, three of conducting and once mastered there are maybe a handfull of tricks but mostly they aren't used anyway.

1) Be able to hear music in your head.
2) Learn to flap your arms in time in the correct meteric pattern. ( I know this sounds silly but you'll be surprised at even high level professional conductors that can't do this.)
3) (I'm thinking hard of a three but really can't think of it)

Once you're able to follow along a piece of music note for note in your head and you're able to conduct the relatively few meteric patterns in time then the rest is just a slight bit of coordination.

You'll need to be able to keep time with one arm while cueing musicians with the other. The trick to that is that you prep a cue for a musician the beat before and then on the apropriate beat, point.

Trick two. When soft beat smaller then gradually get bigger as the dynamics increase. You'll be suprised at how many people screw that simple thing up.

Trick three. Lead the orchestra. Don't follow. It took me a long time to get this one straight. But it's really simple too. The orchestra is reacting to you. As a player it's easy to "get into the groove" of the ensemble but that's not your job. You're always slightly ahead of the ensemble. If you cue a down beat the players are usually late coming in. You'll have to wait a bit for them to catch up. Then in order for them to play in time you'll have to be a rock solid metronome. You can practice this by conducting to a metonome. 

To move them ahead you have to beat faster than they're playing. You're the leader and you have to be out in front hammering in the time. To move slower you'll have to fall behind the orchestra. As a musicians it wil seem like you're lagging, but you have to change your viewpoint and realize that it's not a democracy. Be merciful but completely and utterly autocratic. It's 100 against one. Slap down any up risings. Call players out and demand that they play a part in front of others, ect,ect,ect. Let them know that you're no push over.

Lastly, you absolutely have to know more about music than any player. A player knows his part. And you know his part plus every other part and how they fit together. If you're weak musically then they'll over power you like crazy. Know your musical terms, theory, counterpoint, expression marks. 

I hands down won over the Louisville symphony. There was a section in a Copland piece that had alternating sfz and accents. Most players are told to perform those in the same way. But it seemed odd to me that he would alternate unless Copland specifically wanted something different. So I looked up the difference between sfz and accents and found that an accent just means to raise the note above the level of the surrounding notes. A sfz is a sharp quick loud attack. It doesn't last the duration where as an accent should. Also, accents can be in any dynamic level. For composers it's pretty obvious but for players we're told that an accent is an accent and a sfz is a hard accent. Many players can barely make the distinction.

Soooo...during rehearsal of course the orchestra was making no real distinction between accents and sfz though they where trying it was a muddled mess. So I stopped the orchestra and explained the difference. All of the sudden they brighten up and the piece was swingin' and rocking the house down. From that I earned their respect as somebody who new what he was talking about.

Lastly, never assume that players are good musicians. They usually aren't. 99% of players are great instrumentalist but don't know a damn thing about how music is really put together beyond play this note at this time at this dynamic level. But even that in some orchestras can be questionable. So as a conductor you'll have to quickly asses the level of the orchestra. It varies. Even top Hollywood session players can be lacking in some very basic music fundamentals. So never real take anything for granted. If it's out it's out and let people know. Don't assume that they know. because if it's out that means that there's some perception or knowledge that's missing in the group that needs to be cleared up. I hear basic performance problems in almost every filmscore and usually it's because the composer is too afraid or trust the ensemble too much. Composers generally don't realize that classical players have spent most of their lives perfecting there instrument and have spent relatively little time learning ensemble and theory skills so even in some of the better orchestras that lack of understanding can be quite obvious.

Jose


----------



## Evan Gamble (Apr 13, 2006)

great crash course in conducting Jose! Since I've only conducted small ensembles and to myself, this confirms my way of thinking on alot of the specifics.


----------



## Scott Cairns (Apr 13, 2006)

Here's what I learnt from all two of my conducting lessons;

1. Make sure your downbeat (when your swinging the baton) is high enough for the orchestra to actually see. They call it your ictus (not sure of the spelling) but its a chosen area in front of your body where the baton has reached its downward travel and starts back up again. If conducting behind a podium or something that blocks the players view, your ictus needs to be even higher. If the orchestra cant see your downbeat, they'll quickly go out of time.

2. As Jose said, dont be scared to jump on players for being too loud, too late, whatever.

King, I think you might relate to this, I was watching a conudctor recently in rehearsals with a symphony orchestra for a show. He ws constantly stopping the orchestra, getting them to replay 4bars. Getting one section to play through. stopping the Violins and saying less drag on the bow, more detache. etc, etc. At one point he told the bones they were too loud, they got out there pencils and changed the dynamic on their score to play softer.

It hit me that the conductor was literally "tweaking" the orchestra, just like we do with midi mockup, re-playing sections of the piece, soloing sections and so on.

Perhaps that might help your approach when directing live players, I know your already a midi tweaker.


----------



## Peter Alexander (Apr 13, 2006)

My conducting has been with choral groups and jingle sessions.

To answer your question, yes, it will improve your composing skills. 

1) you'll learn to phrase.
2) you'll learn where the line should breathe in terms of the speeding up and slowing down of meter.
3) your rhythmic ability will improve to the point that when you hear a rhythm in your head you'll know what it is and how to write it in various time signatures
4) you'll hear things in a recording you never heard before
5) there will be an immediate jump in your composing skills, especially as you learn to work with Russian and 20th century French works, because now you'll start seeing various orchestral combinations, how they were put together, and how to make them blend. 
6) Conducting will help your mixing because what you're hearing live (placement in the stereophonic field) you'll apply to your mock-ups.

OK, having said this, where to start.

Get a book called The Grammar of Conducting by Max Rudolf. Follow his exercises for the right hand. Then, get a basic ear training book with lots of whole, half, quarter and eighth notes. You want simplicity. Don't try conducting a whole work in the beginning, start smaller and build.

Another point. Part of musical leadership with a conductor is a steady tempo. So you have to learn to work with a metronome. As you get comfortable with it, you'll start seeing how to "play with time".

To summarize part of what Jose said, conductor's interpret. Think of a classical piece you like, then find 2-4 different recordings of it by different conductors. How is one version different from another?

One thing I have learned over the years, get through the entire piece first a couple of times then start tweaking. Once the musicians have a sense of the piece and it's direction, your rehearsal time will be better managed.


----------



## fitch (Apr 14, 2006)

josejherring @ Fri Apr 14 said:


> It's 100 against one. Slap down any up risings. Call players out and demand that they play a part in front of others, ect,ect,ect. Let them know that you're no push over.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




i'm glad i've never seen you behind a baton Jose LOL

I'd a hated you .. and there would have no doubt been war !


LOL


big tip ... 


Respect the players .. they respect you back ... don't go in with Joses "beat em down at all costs"... i'm sorry that just doesn't wash..

:D


----------



## Daryl (Apr 14, 2006)

Of course it all depends who the boss is......! As a conductor I never cared whether anyone liked me or not. However, I would have cared if the orchestra didn't perform well :smile:

In the concert world the interaction between conductor and orchestra is very different than in the session world. With orchestras that mainly do concert work you will find that some players feel they have to justify themselves in front of their colleagues, whereas in the session world people just get on with the job. Of course the difference in the session world could also be due to the fact that if someone argues with the conductor, in all likelihood they will not be booked again by that client. If it happens with the same player and another client the chances are that they will not be booked again EVER...! The sad part about all this is that if some of the players acted the same way in rehearsals for concerts as they do in sessions the rehearsals would finish a lot earlier, as there would be far less wasted time.

Thankfully gamesmanship by conductors and conductor baiting by orchestral musicians are both becoming much rarer these days. Now that conductors have to earn respect there tends to be a "benefit of the doubt" period on both sides.

D


----------



## fitch (Apr 14, 2006)

i think Daryl has a point there.. the liking thing isn't really that important :D but respect is .

players don't generally argue back .. i've never really seen that myself .. we're trained to respect the conductor .. .. but it's a 2 way street


the concert world and session world has the same players.. the same professional attitude and on both occassions theyget on with the job ..

most egotistical types don't last that long in the end, i'm sure .. they'd get fed up with having to bend to the conductors wishes all the time .. ( actually i think this is the same as the conductors actually :D ... i've seen plenty of people where .. "we won't be having him back" has been put into force LOL ) (and actually again .. that's be a higher percentage than the players LOL )


main thing is .. yes players will do exactly as the composer asks .. or shows.. but they will do it a lot better if there is polite respectfulness coming from the podium

it's all about a good working relationship

the conductors we see time and time again in sessions are there because they are great at working with the players.. ..and the players that are there playing all the time are there because they work well with other people ..

simple!

..

i think Daryls opinion of players is a little bit jaded.. i don't think you've been working with the right players :D


( BTW are you the same Daryl from the VSL forum?) ..


----------



## Daryl (Apr 14, 2006)

fitch @ Fri Apr 14 said:


> i think Daryl has a point there.. the liking thing isn't really important :D I just has a reaction to Joses post and thought I'd share :D
> 
> players don't generally argue back .. i've never really seen that myself .. we're trained to respect the conductor .. .. but it's a 2 way street.


Unfortunately I have seen some dreadful things shouted at conductors and that was in my playing days. Sometimes the sentiments were justified, but often not.



fitch @ Fri Apr 14 said:


> the concert world and session world has the same players.. the same professional attitude and they both get on with the job ..


 This is true in some countries and for some instruments. However, even with the same players some of them have a change of attitude depending on which "world" they currently inhabit, oh and how much they are being paid...!



fitch @ Fri Apr 14 said:


> most egotistical types don't last that long in the end, i'm sure .. they'd get fed up with having to bend to the conductors wishes all the time ..


I wish this was true, but unfortunately I could list many people who fall into this category.




fitch @ Fri Apr 14 said:


> main thing is .. yes players will do exactly as the composer ask .. or shows.. but they will do it a lot better if there is polite respectfulness coming from the podium


I agree 100%.

However, IMO too many conductors have the cheek to stand in front of an orchestra having never had a conducting lesson in their lives. I think that this is highly disrespectful considering how many years the players have strived to learn to play their instrument. Sure, most people could learn a solid and reliable "traditional" conducting technique in 2-3 years, but how many of them bother? Very few......



fitch @ Fri Apr 14 said:


> i think Daryls opinion of players is a little bit jaded..( BTW are you the same Daryl from the VSL forum?) ..


I don't think that I'm jaded at all. I have worked and continue to work with excellent players and I enjoy every minute of it. It's just that I have got to a stage where I can't be bothered to justify everything that I ask of an orchestra. I was naive when I joined the profession to think that everyone was as interested in music as I was, but was sadly disappointed. However, I am now fortunate enough to be able to avoid working with people who don't share my excitement of music, or at least hide their boredom well! Oh and yes, it's me from VSL forum :lol: 

D


----------



## Evan Gamble (Apr 14, 2006)

I know for a fact that there is usually a huge difference in the attitude of the players between the concert world and commercial. 

how do i know this you might say? 

Because Eliot Goldenthal said so :wink:


----------



## Daryl (Apr 14, 2006)

Evan Gamble @ Fri Apr 14 said:


> I know for a fact that there is usually a huge difference in the attitude of the players between the concert world and commercial.
> 
> how do i know this you might say?
> 
> Because Eliot Goldenthal said so :wink:


Well, it must be true then......

D


----------



## fitch (Apr 14, 2006)

Daryl @ Fri Apr 14 said:


> Oh and yes, it's me from VSL forum :lol:
> 
> D



welcome to VI then :D go check out the VSL upgrade thread LOL :wink: 





and i agree with you... it is disappointing when players.. or conductors don't share the same enthusiam for music .. but .. 

you still have to respect them... 


:D

evan .. i still play in both commercial and concert orchestras regularly.. the players are the same and the attitudes are the same ... ( one exception maybe :wink: .. in sessions the players are very careful not to talk about the conductor in front of the mics LOL)


:D


----------



## Daryl (Apr 14, 2006)

fitch @ Fri Apr 14 said:


> i still play in both commercial and concert orchestras regularly.. the players are the same and the attitudes are the same ...


In the UK this is not always the case. I know many string players who only do sessions, and even then mostly big budget features. However, the woodwind, brass and percussion players would starve if they limited themselves to sessions.....


fitch @ Fri Apr 14 said:


> ( one exception maybe :wink: .. in sessions the players are very careful not to talk about the conductor in front of the mics LOL)
> :D


A lot of truth in this :smile: 



fitch @ Fri Apr 14 said:


> welcome to VI ..... :D go check out the VSL upgrade thread LOL :wink:


Thanks for the welcome. I've moved on; there are many other whining threads to amuse me now, mostly including the words "Mac" and "dongle" :roll: 

D


----------



## Peter Alexander (Apr 14, 2006)

So Daryl, is that your quote for Sibelius I see on their web site?


----------



## Peter Alexander (Apr 14, 2006)

> Thankfully gamesmanship by conductors and conductor baiting by orchestral musicians are both becoming much rarer these days. Now that conductors have to earn respect there tends to be a "benefit of the doubt" period on both sides.
> 
> D



I don't recall EVER seeing anything like this on the scoring stage in Los Angeles, especially in sessions where Sandy DeCrescent was the contractor. I've seen clarification questions from the concert master to the conductor, and a few times from other instrumentalists, but never this outward "challenging" mentioned here. 

Jerry was a superb conductor. Hank would conduct, sometimes sit down, stop conducting and just listen, and then start conducting again. Folks not quite up to the conducting (often because they can't read or sight read music) bring in outside, pleasant, no nonsense folks like Pete Anthony, Shirley Walker and Chuck Fernandez.

I don't know about outside LA, but inside LA no one on the scoring stage has time for Toscanini-like antics. Everything is being is being sight read, by the composer through the musician. So there's just no time.


----------



## Daryl (Apr 14, 2006)

Peter Alexander @ Fri Apr 14 said:


> So Daryl, is that your quote for Sibelius I see on their web site?


Err, yes..........

D


----------



## Daryl (Apr 14, 2006)

Peter Alexander @ Fri Apr 14 said:


> > Thankfully gamesmanship by conductors and conductor baiting by orchestral musicians are both becoming much rarer these days. Now that conductors have to earn respect there tends to be a "benefit of the doubt" period on both sides.
> >
> > D
> 
> ...



Sorry Peter maybe I wasn't being clear. It is in the concert world where this sort of behaviour can take place; not as a rule for session work.

D


----------



## Scott Rogers (Apr 14, 2006)

..........


----------



## fitch (Apr 14, 2006)

Scott Rogers @ Fri Apr 14 said:


> King,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




LOL


jeez .. i pity the front desk of strings :mrgreen:


----------



## José Herring (Apr 14, 2006)

After reading through all the threads i've changed my post.

The conductors position is a dictatorship. We can be calm and friendly and "collaborate" all you want but the truth is that the best conductors were tyrants. Period. Loved or hated they get the job done. Where would all the great orchestras, mostly saddly in the past, have been if their conductors weren't feared. Yes FEARED!

You didn't [email protected]#k up in front of George Czell but he took the Clevland orchestra from being a amature band and into the world class orchestra it is still today. Leopold Stakowski(sp) did the same for Philly and the biggest tyrrant of all Fritz Reiner turned the Chicago orchestra into perhaps the best orchestra this planet has ever heard.

So I see nothing wrong with being hard. As long as you know what your doing and are headed only in the direction of getting great performances.

I feel the standards today are too low. People are afraid of offending other people. Screw it. Be good. Be competent. Do your job. Screw whether or not people find you pleasent to be around.

Having conducted and played in many groups I can say with absolute certainty that the best condutors where tough. They demand perfection. 

Personally as I player I was under the toughest conductors. I hated most of them. HATED!!! But I will say the one conductor that I hated the most was the only conductor that I've ever seen who got a standing ovation for a performance of the Oliver Messiaen - Turanglila Symphonie. A piece that I didn't think an audience would ever get. Why did he get a standing O? Because we played great!!! He may have been a son of a bitch but he demanded perfection from us. He cared enough about the piece not to let us just pluck out the notes.

So when you step in front of a group you can be nice and charming and try to 'respect' the players all you want. Respect means that you demand of the players their very best. You don't settle. Even the best guys need a kick in the pants now and again. 

This idea of players being "professionals" is a misunderstood idea. Players think if they show up on time and can play their parts reasonalbe well they are professional. I say that's the bare minimum. You can be great.

Yes Fitch. If I conduct you it may be war. But, you'll soon find out that we're fighting the same war. The war of really reaching in deep and really pulling out the best. The absolute best.

If a conductor is anything he's not a cheerleader. He's a John Madden type coach. He cares enough about his people and about the music so that they can do their very best.

That's all. Take it for what you will. But, I've been there and have done it. And have had players who respond and I've gotten the standing ovations and it wasn't because I crushed the orchestra it was because I demanded that they play at their very highest level. And, I thank them for it after. because after all it's just a game.

Jose


----------



## KingIdiot (Apr 14, 2006)

thanks all for the info and suggestions, especially Scott!

Its definitely a ways down the road, I'm sut curious as to what benefits I would have by learning to do it (besides personal satisfaction), adn whats been stated has justifies some of my thoughts on it.

Thanks all


----------



## José Herring (Apr 14, 2006)

Scott Rogers @ Fri Apr 14 said:


> King,
> 
> 
> The concert world can be a little less focused than a session, and though there can be the occasional personality anomaly, the minute you let it turn into _Clash of the Titans_, the atmosphere is poisoned, you lose credibility and the air of professionalism, and the rehearsal suffers. Treat the musicians as collaborators and always remain in _calm_ control. Give genuine but not over-the-top praise when appropriate, but not in a sycophantic manner. Be firm and decisive, but do so by employing good leadership skills, not as some sort of insecure, manipulative tyrant. John C. Maxwell's _Developing the Leader Within You_ is an excellent book that can help in this regard, since conducting is not just about conducting.
> ...



From this statements it's not clear to me whether you've actually conducted many high caliber orchestras. 

The beter the group the more it is a Clash of the Titans. In the better orchestras the players are great! They often have an ego to match. You have to be demanding. You have to be, or they'll not respect you and they squash you. Period.

There is no nicer conductor than Zubin Mehta. He's actually a real good musician too, but in the early 90's I saw the New York phil hammer him over and over again. When Kurt Mazur stepped in he was a tyrant. The orchestra was scared. They never played better.

It's a brutal reality. I'm generally an easy going and easy to get a long with person but when a conductor your decisions have to be more than just firm and decisive they have to be as solid as titanium.

Of course in the session world it's much different. People are usually worried about their next gig and the atmosphere is very social though politically booby trapped. :lol:


----------



## rJames (Apr 14, 2006)

...love the anecdotes. Got that King?


----------



## José Herring (Apr 14, 2006)

Peter Alexander @ Fri Apr 14 said:


> > Thankfully gamesmanship by conductors and conductor baiting by orchestral musicians are both becoming much rarer these days. Now that conductors have to earn respect there tends to be a "benefit of the doubt" period on both sides.
> >
> > D
> 
> ...



Jerry was a competent conductor, same as Pete and Shirley. I don't know Chuck. Toscanini was great. There in lies the difference.

Jose


----------



## Peter Alexander (Apr 14, 2006)

> Jerry was a competent conductor, same as Pete and Shirley. I don't know Chuck. Toscanini was great. There in lies the difference. Jose



If you need to be right, OK, but I don't think your comparison is realistic. Sight conducting on demand under pressure is much different than having several days to several weeks to study and mull over a score before you conduct it.


----------



## José Herring (Apr 14, 2006)

Peter Alexander @ Fri Apr 14 said:


> > Jerry was a competent conductor, same as Pete and Shirley. I don't know Chuck. Toscanini was great. There in lies the difference. Jose



No I don't need to be right. I'm just trying to point out somethings that I've observed that separates goodness from greatness. Performance wise only.

But I do understand where you're coming from. Session work is a bit different.

Cheers,

Jose


----------



## PaulR (Apr 15, 2006)

KingIdiot @ Thu Apr 13 said:


> As I'm purely a learn by doing and reading person and have taught myself everythign I know about music and music production, I've been curious about what condcting skills can offer to someone in my position.



I tried it a couple of times at college. I'm totally useless at it and look like the guy in the juggling thread probably - only without the timing and the balls (haha!). I couldn't conduct a number 9 bus.

Interesting anecdote about conducting. One of my all time favourite sections of film music is the opening titles to Vertigo by Herrmann. When they were about to record the music for the film with Herrmann conducting - there was a technicians (or something) strike in Hollywood. So they had to record it in Europe. Herrmann didn't go over - so they got a guy called Muir Mathieson to do the conducting for Vertigo.
Had Herrmann conducted it - it would have almost certainly sounded different and probably a lot slower.


----------



## Daryl (Apr 15, 2006)

PaulR @ Sat Apr 15 said:


> Interesting anecdote about conducting. One of my all time favourite sections of film music is the opening titles to Vertigo by Herrmann. When they were about to record the music for the film with Herrmann conducting - there was a technicians (or something) strike in Hollywood. So they had to record it in Europe. Herrmann didn't go over - so they got a guy called Muir Mathieson to do the conducting for Vertigo.
> Had Herrmann conducted it - it would have almost certainly sounded different and probably a lot slower.


This is an interesting point and almost deserves it's own thread. Should composers conduct their own music?

If I narrow it down to film and TV the answer is nearly always "no". Conducting with that god-awful click in the ear is not conducive to hearing the orchestra well, so trying to shape a cohesive performance is more reliant on the ears in the control room. Also, most composers are not really competent conductors, therefore spending effort concentrating on what to do with their hands rather than actually doing a useful job.

It can save rehearsal time for the composer to rehearse each cue, but for recording the ears who really know the score should be listening at the best vantage point, which is not from the podium....! This is assuming that said composers actually know what their scores sound like :lol: 

I have tried to let other people conduct my music, but unfortunately I get itchy feet, so have had to settle for the compromise of me conducting and someone I trust producing.

D


----------



## Scott Rogers (Apr 15, 2006)

..........


----------



## Stephen Rees (Apr 15, 2006)

That's a great post Scott.


----------



## José Herring (Apr 15, 2006)

Good post Scott. But still the orchestras aren't quite as good. It's a shame really. There is a middle ground, being tough but caring about the orchestra. That's the approach I use and it works well.

But to be sure. Nobody is talking here about child like behavior. Only uncompromising behavior.

edit: One more thing. I studied with people that played under a lot of the so called tyrranical conductors and they speak of them with great respect. And, I don't know of anybody who's ever been fired from an orchestra even in the old days. Demoted yes. But the old great players played under these conductors for decades until they died. 

Unions changed a lot in orchestras not all of it for the better.

Best,

Jose


----------



## fitch (Apr 15, 2006)

scott .. you got the right webpage to quote there..


please guys .. believe it :D


----------



## José Herring (Apr 15, 2006)

How did I get so misunderstood. :razz: 

I'm not talking about going back to the bad old days. I'm talking about not settling for mediocre. If some hack string player wants to just noodle his part and collect a weekly paycheck I say call him/her out on it. If that's tyranical then so be it. Just don't settle for mediocre because it's politically correct not to hurt somebody's feelings.

C'mon be tough. It's just a game. Play hard.

Jose


----------



## Evan Gamble (Apr 16, 2006)

here's the goldenthal article I was reffering to-interesting read

http://www.newmusicbox.org/article.nmbx?id=1987



> FRANK J. OTERI: Yeah. Why should it have been a battle with the Boston Symphony? Even though you got a great performance and later on the piece got a great recordingâ€”it's a piece that has gotten a lot of circulationâ€”but you used the word battle. You have a luckier scenario than most composers with a work like that. It shouldn't be a battle.
> 
> ELLIOT GOLDENTHAL: Orchestras seem to put on two hats. When they're working for a film production they seem to function business-wise, or personality-wise, less as an orchestra than as studio musicians. This is a delicate point. When an orchestra is performing as an orchestra, rehearsing as an orchestra, there's a different mentality. Within the orchestra, any orchestra, there are many factions. People circulate their own newsletters within the orchestra that may oppose the conductor, or oppose the administration. There are people who don't like to rehearse at eight, or nine. They like to rehearse at three. You know what I'm saying? It goes on and on and on and onâ€”all the demands within the orchestra. There are orchestras that don't want to play Wagner or Philip Glass because it hurts their arms. They don't want to play this. They don't want to play that. They get very finicky and they have their own personalities. The concertmaster might not like the work that they're doing or might not like contemporary music. There's a faction that hates contemporary music. There is not a unity in that setting for most orchestras. I have always found this. When they are working on a film it's something different. They think differently. They toss all that aside and they're just very helpful. Did you get what you wanted? Can we do any better? There is a great pride that takes over and fractionalization kind of disappears.


----------



## Daryl (Apr 16, 2006)

Yeah, ask any second violin section whether or not they want to do a New Year's Day concert :cry: 

D


----------



## PaulR (Apr 16, 2006)

Evan Gamble @ Sun Apr 16 said:


> here's the goldenthal article I was reffering to-interesting read
> http://www.newmusicbox.org/article.nmbx?id=1987



Yes - the Goldenthal section I read or heard before and that I thought was very good - especially the bit about their arms hurting.


----------



## fitch (Apr 16, 2006)

ask anyone if they want to do a new years day concert LOL


and the arms hurting thing... there are ways to rehearse material that enduce tendontitis :D .. not constantly repeating it :D


----------



## Daryl (Apr 16, 2006)

fitch @ Sun Apr 16 said:


> and the arms hurting thing... there are ways to rehearse material that enduce tendontitis :D .. not constantly repeating it :D


True, however there is no way round the concert........... It is also slightly different playing 2nd violin than cello, or 1st violin or even viola, due to the angle of the right arm. I'm starting to feel ill just thinking about it :cry: 

D


----------

