# A thousand painful deaths to me I know....but I really really really don't get Danny Elfman's music



## zvenx (Feb 28, 2010)

yeah yeah yeah, I am aware he has more talent in his cut off toe nails than I have in my entire body and my music sucks etc. But I have never understand why he gets work in the industry.......Tonight was just another example.
I went to see Wolfman. Had no idea other than the two main actors anything else credit wise about the movie.
About 30 minutes into the movie, I realised that I didn't have ANY opinion whatsoever on the score so I decided to pay attention the music, if there was indeed music as I hadn't noticed anything about the music till that point.
Within two minutes I realised it was Danny Elfman....it was for me, his usually trademarks:
dark potpourri of sound that are made up of dissonant items, and no melody/ motif etc that I found memorable, sounding like everything is just thrown together... I stayed till the end of the movie and the credits rolled to see if I was right..yep... my date was surprised I got it right... but seriously I really really don't' get it at all. I mean I loved his stuff with oingo boingo but without exception I find his music all dark,disorganised, thrown together, and very very unmemorable even whilst listening to it during the movie, much less 2 minutes later or anytime later.
Am I really the only one? I seem to think he is laughing his way to the bank everytime he does a score.
rsp


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## _taylor (Feb 28, 2010)

I hear ya. Elfman is hit or miss with me. I haven't heard the Wolfman score yet, but Terminator Salvation I found not very interesting on its own. I haven't seen the film either so not sure how it works to picture. 


3 Eflman scores I really enjoy are Planet of the apes ( remake), Edward Scissorhands and Sleepy Hollow. I think he's a great composer and not all his works are his best?


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## zvenx (Feb 28, 2010)

see case in point. I have seen Edward Scissorhands at least three times over the years and as I am hearing your youtube link, none of it sounds even vaguely familiar to me.
rsp


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## StrangeCat (Feb 28, 2010)

zvenx @ Sun Feb 28 said:


> yeah yeah yeah, I am aware he has more talent in his cut off toe nails than I have in my entire body and my music sucks etc. But I have never understand why he gets work in the industry.......Tonight was just another example.
> I went to see Wolfman. Had no idea other than the two main actors anything else credit wise about the movie.
> About 30 minutes into the movie, I realised that I didn't have ANY opinion whatsoever on the score so I decided to pay attention the music, if there was indeed music as I hadn't noticed anything about the music till that point.
> Within two minutes I realised it was Danny Elfman....it was for me, his usually trademarks:
> ...




Your realized it was Danny Elfman that is pretty remarkable, Mr. Elfman having his own sound?

Talent? Time constraints, director approvals, and doing what is popular is what you are hearing. The Films sound of Hollywood is craft that has to sound the way it does. I think of it as being pretty psychological. On one had the music is nothing to shout about(Avatar) on the other you have people that look for a certain sound that is the Hollywood or The Major film sound. You have to deliver that sound. It's what they want and what is expected for Films really. (John Williams is an exception I think)Harry Potter films probably the best example. After No. 3 the music has sucked ass.

What would you except of WolfMan's Music? A romantic Theme for the WolfMan, some Crazy dark Choir music with big bangs for the action scenes....or some weird atonal string music? I don't know the score but I bet it was strings and brass, percussion, and maybe some choirs? Maybe if it was a European film it would have that Romanitc sound and have a more ethnic diversity to it.

Most movie music is pretty simple stuff, basic motifs, with brass and large bangs.
Reminds me of the cliche' trailer music, like the Bass Drone with the Vocals on top, then the other instruments coming in, then the tempo increasing and the choir chant with brass and big bangs^_- But it all works! Oh and it's all compressed to hell too.



Compose and forget about the critique.


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## zvenx (Feb 28, 2010)

Just so you know I do go to a lot of movies and listen to a lot of different composers who all have time constraints, director approvals and what is popular to deal with as well ... and clearly I dont' expect a romantic sound....but thanks for the response...allows a discussion from opposing views.
rsp


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## mjc (Feb 28, 2010)

His 'classic sound' is a big influence on my writing, I've always enjoyed the main titles to most of his scores (the Spiderman one gets me going everytime!! :mrgreen: )

Look forward to hearing how he goes with Alice In Wonderland.


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## JohnG (Feb 28, 2010)

Dolores Claiborne

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fERjO6Id97s


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## Farkle (Feb 28, 2010)

+1 Dolores Claiborne... absolutely beautiful dark string writing. I study that score, along with House of Sand And Fog (Horner, in a kick ass stretch of his talents) for great string writing.

+1 Spiderman main theme. When the opening chord (D minor, I think) assembles out of muted violins, and then the chugging arpeggios in the violas start... ooo, I get chills.

At his best, Danny Elfman was a redefining of the film sound. At his "worst", IMHO, he still wrote good, supportive, dramatic music for a film.

Random aside: I met Danny at Carnegie Hall about 5 years ago, when he premiered his "Sinfonia Schizophrenia"... he was a very nice person, and seemed really down to earth. It was encouraging that such an influential film composer still would talk to a younger professional and be kind and communicative. I then grabbed Steve Bartek and asked him to show me half of the score. Talk about a lesson in Hollywood orchestration! 

Mike


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## choc0thrax (Feb 28, 2010)

some reasons to like Elfman:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mA-kO9Fi ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwPu_3aw ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnX-8xYD ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsPzhvAe ... L&index=16

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaxKiZfQ ... re=related

If you don't like Scissorhands though, I guess you wouldn't like these either since Scissorhands is his best. I have friends from New Jersey who only listen to rap but I got them to really like the Scissorhands score.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Feb 28, 2010)

Nightmare Before Christmas

Not only good score, but he has a killer voice for Jack's singing voice.

I don't think the OP has seen more of the older ones, but I could be wrong:

Memorable scores I think are these:

Batman
Beetlejuice
Tales of the Crypt Theme
The Simpsons Theme
Edward Scissorhands
Back to School (which you can see him in)

His scores lately have gone from that cooky sense, to a more dark/industrial sound it seems.


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## TheoKrueger (Mar 1, 2010)

He's also written an album which is very interesting: 

http://www.serenadaschizophrana.com/

There's audio clips on the site too.


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## lux (Mar 1, 2010)

personally i've rarely found a track of such intensity as Farewell from Spiderman.


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## zvenx (Mar 1, 2010)

I actually do like the Simpson's theme that he did..sorry I didn't mention it as I didn't consider that 'film music'.. will look at some of the other suggestions above during the day.
thanks
rsp


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## zvenx (Mar 1, 2010)

ok listened to the references above, I do like the Black Beauty stuff, but the rest I really dont get. But such is art....some get it some don't for some painters,poets, composers etc.
rsp


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## NYC Composer (Mar 1, 2010)

I sometime daydream and try to imagine what he made from the theme to the Simpsons alone. Then I sigh to myself, and go back to work.


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## Waywyn (Mar 1, 2010)

zvenx @ Mon Mar 01 said:


> yeah yeah yeah, I am aware he has more talent in his cut off toe nails than I have in my entire body and my music sucks etc. But I have never understand why he gets work in the industry.......Tonight was just another example.
> I went to see Wolfman. Had no idea other than the two main actors anything else credit wise about the movie.
> About 30 minutes into the movie, I realised that I didn't have ANY opinion whatsoever on the score so I decided to pay attention the music, if there was indeed music as I hadn't noticed anything about the music till that point.
> Within two minutes I realised it was Danny Elfman....it was for me, his usually trademarks:
> ...



As a direct answer to your questions or concern: Everything is cool, it's just taste!


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## zvenx (Mar 1, 2010)

true, but I was also curious to know if I am the only one in this forum, and more importantly try to get a sense from ppl who like or admire his work what it is about his work that they find great/geninus/suberb/wonderful or whatever it is.
rsp


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## choc0thrax (Mar 1, 2010)

zvenx @ Mon Mar 01 said:


> true, but I was also curious to know if I am the only one in this forum, and more importantly try to get a sense from ppl who like or admire his work what it is about his work that they find great/geninus/suberb/wonderful or whatever it is.
> rsp



Hard to explain. His older stuff stood out to me from the rest, it was hmm sadder than other stuff perhaps. I really like sad/majestic stuff and that's why for me Edward Scissorhands will never be topped. When I get a score I instantly search out the tracks I think I'll like such as ones called "reunion" or "farewell" instead of anything with the word "battle" in it, heh.

I understand not knowing what the fuss is about, as I myself can't understand why anyone likes Goldsmith. I like exactly 1 cue of his out of all his music which is uhh called "The Mutant". Lot's of people love him so I have to admit I'm just not getting something when I listen to his stuff.


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## zvenx (Mar 1, 2010)

thanks for that.. you gave me a sense of what you admire about his work.
rsp


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## zvenx (Mar 1, 2010)

by the way, and I hope someone really doesn't think I am using this example for anything more that its intention..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0Fc9lvRMy0 
but that is one of my favourite Oingo Boingo songs and I guess how someone who appears to be so full of fun and whimsical nature can write such dark music.....I guess that actually speaks testament to his talent....
rsp


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## dcoscina (Mar 1, 2010)

Different strokes for different folks. I cannot really get into a bunch of film composers or even Stravinsky but that doesn't diminish their value. It just means their choice of chords or intervals or the way the arrange their music doesn't resonate with me. 

I am with choco on Elfman. He went from a very viscerally exciting composer to more of an intellectual in the '90s. Apart from the odd cue, I just don't get too moved by his work as much as his '90s work


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## reddognoyz (Mar 1, 2010)

I happen to like a lot of the Danny Elfman scores, and he's really expanded his sound beyond his "dark twisted circus" repertoire, although I think that's his strongest fingerprint. One I'm counting on him to return to for Alice in Wonderland.

I don't think that the music you hear in some of the films is Mr. Elfman's "work" rather than a hired orchestrator(/composer)'s interpretation of his motifs. Probably to varying degrees, but I am sure DE is a smart cookie and has no problem delegating LOTS of the grunt work, and perhaps writing, to hired guns. 
He's a huge hitter in the business and that is completely his prerogative. I wish I was in his shoes. How many of us would suffer the slings and arrows from the peanut gallery(us) to be where he is in his career??

I know this is a long while ago, but I was privy( via a scoring seminar) to what DE gave to his orchestrator for his Batman score. It was very very very little, just the most basic motif. The huge dark lumbering orchestration wasn't his. 

Now, would I begrudge that creative spark? No. It was the takeaway, that melody is what you'd whistle on the way out, not the brilliant orchestration. He was the "creator" of that. But I have a suspicion that with at lease SOME of his score's, as Hillary Clinton would say, it takes a village.


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## dcoscina (Mar 1, 2010)

Elfman's Batman has striking similarities to Herrmann's Journey to the Centre of the Earth BTW.


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## Rob Elliott (Mar 1, 2010)

Surprising no one ever mentions his 'Family Man' score - which is one of my favorites he has done (the cue where N. Cage is sitting at the sofa watching the video... very restrained and effective IMHO....


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## choc0thrax (Mar 1, 2010)

reddognoyz @ Mon Mar 01 said:


> I happen to like a lot of the Danny Elfman scores, and he's really expanded his sound beyond his "dark twisted circus" repertoire, although I think that's his strongest fingerprint. One I'm counting on him to return to for Alice in Wonderland.
> 
> I don't think that the music you hear in some of the films is Mr. Elfman's "work" rather than a hired orchestrator(/composer)'s interpretation of his motifs. Probably to varying degrees, but I am sure DE is a smart cookie and has no problem delegating LOTS of the grunt work, and perhaps writing, to hired guns.
> He's a huge hitter in the business and that is completely his prerogative. I wish I was in his shoes. How many of us would suffer the slings and arrows from the peanut gallery(us) to be where he is in his career??
> ...



I think anyone in Danny's position on Batman would have to rely heavily on the orchestrators. The sound of Batman is that of Shirley Walker and Scott Smalley. I tend to think that his best scores are the ones where he relies on orchestrators the most. I wonder if as he became more knowledgeable in writing for orchestra he relied on orchestrators a little less, doing more on his own and thus became less interesting. Well that and a stylistic change.


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## choc0thrax (Mar 1, 2010)

Rob Elliott @ Mon Mar 01 said:


> Surprising no one ever mentions his 'Family Man' score - which is one of my favorites he has done (the cue where N. Cage is sitting at the sofa watching the video... very restrained and effective IMHO....



Family Man is his best score of the 00's. I remember I bought that film just to hear the score.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si1iGbdQWQo


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## Aaron Sapp (Mar 1, 2010)

choc0thrax @ Mon Mar 01 said:


> Rob Elliott @ Mon Mar 01 said:
> 
> 
> > Surprising no one ever mentions his 'Family Man' score - which is one of my favorites he has done (the cue where N. Cage is sitting at the sofa watching the video... very restrained and effective IMHO....
> ...



+1

Hauntingly beautiful score, really. Favorite cue from the score too.


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## synthetic (Mar 1, 2010)

choc0thrax @ Mon Mar 01 said:


> The sound of Batman is that of Shirley Walker and Scott Smalley. I tend to think that his best scores are the ones where he relies on orchestrators the most.



I agree, the less written by him the better. Batman had a main theme by Chris Young (Hellbound) and orchestrations by Walker, so of course that's "his" best work. 

(Young has a great attitude about this, "I'd be walking out of the courthouse and Benny Herrmann would be waiting for me saying, 'Where ya goin with that check!?'")


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## mf (Mar 1, 2010)

synthetic @ Mon Mar 01 said:


> Batman had a main theme by Chris Young (Hellbound) and orchestrations by Walker, so of course that's "his" best work.
> 
> (Young has a great attitude about this, "I'd be walking out of the courthouse and Benny Herrmann would be waiting for me saying, 'Where ya goin with that check!?'")


Yes but then Herrmann will have to pass the check to Mahler, who will hand it to Beethoven, then it will go to Mozart, to Haydn, then to CPE Bach, who will hand it to his father, who will finally cash it saying "no one would credit a redheaded italian priest with the Hellraiser theme anyway; besides, I have more kids than all of you combined."


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## Rob Elliott (Mar 2, 2010)

Nice link. Thanks Richard. 'signature' Elfman. Just thinking how nice to have the 'tool' of pulling off SATB mock-ups (with wordbuilding) approaching this level (I think he has a boy's choir layered in as well.)


Sorry for the sidetrack.


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## Lex (Mar 2, 2010)

Is it only me or most of the Wolfman score that we hear on CD didnt end up in the final cut of the movie?

While I adore Sleepy, Scissorhand and Family Man....I never cared for Batman score, not one bit...and I tried, and analysed it so many times...to me Batman is still one of his weakest scores...

The Hulk on the other hand is absolute master piece for me..

aLex


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## choc0thrax (Mar 2, 2010)

Lex @ Tue Mar 02 said:


> The Hulk on the other hand is absolute master piece for me..



Hm, I think I prefer Armstrong's Hulk score. One thing is for sure the newer Hulk film is way better.


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## Lex (Mar 2, 2010)

choc0thrax @ Tue Mar 02 said:


> Lex @ Tue Mar 02 said:
> 
> 
> > The Hulk on the other hand is absolute master piece for me..
> ...



???you got to be joking?????????

aLex


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## choc0thrax (Mar 2, 2010)

Lex @ Tue Mar 02 said:


> choc0thrax @ Tue Mar 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Lex @ Tue Mar 02 said:
> ...



Uhhh no. The only thing the 2003 Hulk had going for it was that it had Jennifer Connelly. I liked Tim Roth in the newer Hulk. Of course, though, both films aren't very good, it's just that the newer one is better.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Mar 2, 2010)

zvenx @ Tue Mar 02 said:


> By the way for those in the US, today, Amazon has the mp3 of Alice's theme for Alice in Wonderland free:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Alices-Theme/dp/B0039F4QBW
> 
> rsp



I was just playing the Main Titles from Charlie when I read this thread and then I tried the Amazon link. Darn, same ostinato strings in the lower strings. Being a big fan of Danny, this new track does not please me :(


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## choc0thrax (Mar 2, 2010)

I kinda feel bad for Johnny Depp. Seems like he's forced through friendship into doing these terrible Burton films.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Mar 2, 2010)

Lex @ Tue Mar 02 said:


> choc0thrax @ Tue Mar 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Lex @ Tue Mar 02 said:
> ...



In terms of being a bit more accurate to the comic, yes. I did like the first one too though.


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## midphase (Mar 3, 2010)

I think Elfman's been plagiarizing himself since Batman, and in recent times he's gotten progressively more bland and generic sounding. To me the work that I remember from him is Back to School, Batman, Tales from the Crypt, Pee Wee, Edward Scissorhands. Anything from the mid 90's and beyond is utterly forgettable, including Milk, Hellboy 2, and yes...Spiderman.

Having said that, I like the guy, met him and he's really nice and down to earth. I would lie if I didn't admit that he's inspired me and is one of my influences. I wish him all the best (not that he needs any help), and I hope he keeps on chugging as long as he wants to...but yeah, I think the romance for me has been over for quite some time.

Regarding the comment that choc0 made about Goldsmith...to me it's all about memorable themes (which don't sound alike). Star Trek (main theme, Klingon theme), Rambo, Hoosiers, Gremlins, ST First Contact...I can sing all of those and they're all different and varied. Keep in mind that Goldsmith was a pioneer in scoring. The Omen made dissonant choirs freakishly scary before they became the norm for horror, Planet of the Apes made odd percussion and atonal writing cool before tons plagiarized the sound. Goldsmith was the first to blend synths and orchestra together....nowadays we take that for granted. The same is true for Morricone, Herrmann, and Williams. These guys pioneered scoring techniques that by today's standards might seem less than unique, but they were the originators, and if it wasn't for them, Elfman, Zimmer, JNH, and the rest simply wouldn't sound the way they do. Talk about standing on the shoulders of giants!


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## lux (Mar 3, 2010)

choc0thrax @ Tue Mar 02 said:


> Lex @ Tue Mar 02 said:
> 
> 
> > choc0thrax @ Tue Mar 02 said:
> ...



imo Ang Lee's was a pretty good movie. But too much intense for a marvel movie imho. The whole allegory of hulk and the rage of a violated infancy goes probably way beyond the original comic's intent.

I think the second one was good. The brazil scenarios were visually impressive. The story a bit meh...but decent.


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## mixolydian (Mar 4, 2010)

midphase @ Wed Mar 03 said:


> Anything from the mid 90's and beyond is utterly forgettable, including Milk, Hellboy 2, and yes...Spiderman.


What do you dislike about Spiderman? I thought the main theme is a killer, and that's not all about the score.


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## midphase (Mar 4, 2010)

I can't remember it, I couldn't remember it the moment I walked out of the theatre. Not a like or dislike, just same generic sound I heard many many times before and all becomes a big blur.

Can you remember any of the music from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory? I'd be willing to bet Alice will be more of the same too.


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## dadek (Mar 4, 2010)

Nobody liked his Planet of the Apes? :shock:


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## _taylor (Mar 4, 2010)

dadek @ Thu Mar 04 said:


> Nobody liked his Planet of the Apes? :shock:



I'll raise my hand again, it's one of my favorites. The movie itself? well.....


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## SvK (Mar 4, 2010)

My favorite Loud, Action Elfman score is "DarkMan"


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## SvK (Mar 4, 2010)

have you ever listened to the original Planet Of The Apes?

SvK


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## _taylor (Mar 4, 2010)

SvK @ Thu Mar 04 said:


> have you ever listened to the original Planet Of The Apes?
> 
> SvK



Is that a rhetorical question? I thought that was composing 101 (o)


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## SvK (Mar 4, 2010)

Y rhetorical


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## _taylor (Mar 4, 2010)

I guess because that work in particular has been cited by so many people as ground breaking that every single interested composer would have listened to it, at least once.


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## SvK (Mar 4, 2010)

even if your Elfman, it's better to turn it down in light of the original masterpiece.....of course there's the Million$ to consider 

so on 2nd thought....

SvK


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## _taylor (Mar 4, 2010)

apples to apples...


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