# The Way Forward



## NYC Composer

"They got a name for the winners in the world, and I want a name when I lose
They call Alabama the Crimson Tide-call me Deacon Blues."

Steely Dan, Deacon Blues


For those gloaters (yes, I'm looking at you, Adrian) who thought I was going to run and hide due to the results of this election, ummm...er...well...no. I've always thought gloating was a good and true test of character-thank you for being so delightfully consistent! For the record, I made my last post in 'The Year of Trump" before the results came in, and I said it would be my last post. I too am consistent.

Donald J. Trump, that odious toad, is now President of these here United States, and that's the way it is. I can only hope he grows in the office, that he's a better man than he has shown himself to be. I'm not going to go into any "the election was rigged!" nonsense the way he surely would have had he lost. Nativism has been given a mandate in America for now.

I have lived through Nixon, Reagan and a pair of Bushes. 8 years of G.W. Bush, 8 years of Obama-this country sure is a mass of contradictions. 

Apparently, a lot of people are protesting in New York right now. My question is this: protesting what? The election seemed clear enough to me. Trumpism in general? Well, yes, I hate that, but I'm going to reserve my protesting for specifics. March on Washington against mass deportations? I'll be there. Protesting down at the giant wall? I'll be there. Educating myself in how to help families from being deported? Yep.

This is certainly a teaching moment for those who have held the same liberal assumptions that I hold dear, but I hate the country's choice. I will be figuring out my personal way forward, and I invite you to join me in finding yours. Gloat, moan, be conservative, liberal, opine, whatever. Try to speak civilly. Hate may feel good temporarily, but it rots the soul. Just look at the Baron!

Btw, is it just me, or is no one ever going to believe a pollster again?

I refuse to give in to cynicism or despair.


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## chimuelo

Once you realize thier true purpose there's little need for them unless you want to hear bad news in a good way.

Markets were hit as they should be.
Then they rebounded.
I think media will be listened to less and less as they really took off thier masks with no regrets.

I'm expecting treasury yields to rise causing more investment.
People are excited about not having a politician in office.
He walks into markets already over valued by 15%.

As far as the traumatized students crying and refusing to go to class.
They're just suffering because the grief counselors all went to Hollywood to help them justify living in America.

I expect all of these matters groups to continue searching for relevance.

We'll see what's it's like having a crazy out of control gangster.
My guess is same as the old boss, except Russia will be glad to see it's wikileaks hacks were pretty successful.

53% women
33% Hispanic

Not bad for an abuser of women who wants Hispanics to leave the USA?

I hope he hides out until Jan.
I can't handle hearing him for a while. 
HRCs yelling will not be missed.

Let's see how things unravel.

Cheers


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## Soundhound

My concern is turning to the people that he'll surround himself with. I think/hope he's smart enough that he knows he's out of his depths, and will look to pros to help him learn how to do it. But the early alarming names being thrown around are Gingrich Secy of State, Giuliani Atty General, there's a climate change skeptic proposed as head of the EPA. The supreme court is presumably lost to right wing ideologues for another generation.

My feeling is now the work needs to start. I've always felt that the dems buckled under right wing pressure, and essentially became centrist republicans. The right wing policies of reagan, clinton, bush et al hollowed out the middle class, and they are angry.

So now is the time to push for real progressives. I'm going to seek out what there is in my area, dnc chapter, don't know where I'll start, and try to contribute whatever I can of my time and effort.

Trump pandered to the very worst in our country to get elected, and the result is sad, and frightening for a lot of people. Both he and Sanders saw the anger people had about the middle class being stepped on. Bernie's message was directed at those who could be persuaded with a progressive message, Trump spoke to the portion of the country that possesses latent, or not so latent, racism, misogyny and xenophobia and mixed their economic worries with scapegoating. It's disgusting, and it's exactly how tyrants come to power.

But my hope is that the system will be sturdy enough to resist this threat, and maybe he'll grow into the job. He's pure id, all he wants is his dick sucked, and now that's he's president there is going to be plenty of that.

I don't know how much of this is denial, but I'm currently depressed and hopeful at the same time. The very worst this country has to offer has been laid bare, maybe now the work to remove the cancer can begin.


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## chimuelo

Next time a real progressive enters the race get behind them.
You certainly must realize the wealthy white Liberals ain't going to do Jack shit except gain more wealth and power.
Now look where we are at.

But looking forward I want a non interventionist and economic pro growth policy.
Doesn't matter what they stand for call for or urge for but what happens.

Pie in the sky policies need a good economy.
The rest of these losers should go write books and teach others how to fail..


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## Soundhound

What I said.


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## NYC Composer

I think you're both right. I should have been more behind Bernie than I was, but we do need economic growth. You can't just talk about the breaks the wealthy get. Tax fairness is important, but you have to rev the engine of growth as well.

Non interventionism is good as policy, but as WW2 proved, there are no rules written in stone.

'Hound, the work of change begins and it's going to be a long, painful road, but part of it involves losing some of the rhetoric. I wish I could gaze into my crystal ball and figure out how many votes "basket of deplorables" lost. It was her 47% moment. Personally, I don't even feel that way but if people do, they should start using their inside voice. Meanwhile racism, sexism, deportation, sane gun policy, support for the poorest-we have to address the things we can by working harder, getting involved with our time and our wallets. Early thoughts from me.


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## Diffusor

Bernie never had a chance. He even signed a non-aggression pact with the Hillary camp. Sellout. The DNC is utterly corrupt. Taco bowls. "I am no homo". Let's send protesters to Trump rallies dressed up as Bernie supporters to rile up trouble. Yeah right. The DNC has nothing but themselves to blame for this. Wikileaks and Project Veritas are heroes in exposing their bullshit. Maybe next time they will be more honest and less Machiavellian.


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## NYC Composer

Oh, I don't think there is any dearth of Machiavelli behaviour on either side, but I left the Democratic Party 17 years ago, so. You have to admit, he got pretty close for a radical, so all those rigged system stuff seems to be nonsense to some degree.

One thing I'm waiting for is more exploration into Russian interventionism.


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## Soundhound

Larry I agree but only to a point. People don't generally cry at elections. Not like this. People are frightened because someone who espoused hate and intolerance is going to be in control of the country. Maybe it was all a game and he only used it to get elected. I hope that's true, but my suspicion is that it's only partly true. 

The dems lost their way by buckling under to the pressure and tactics of the far right. From Reagan on. I marched in the streets when I was a kid, but I did it because my parents did it and took me along. This is the first time I've felt like doing it in my adult life. Sweeping hate and intolerance under the rug is a leap too far for me. Call a spade a spade. This is a shameful episode in our history and I don't think making believe it didn't happen is a constructive way forward. 

If you voted for Donald Trump, you are ok with racist talk. Does that make you a racist? It does in my book.




NYC Composer said:


> I think you're both right. I should have been more behind Bernie than I was, but we do need economic growth. You can't just talk about the breaks the wealthy get. Tax fairness is important, but you have to rev the engine of growth as well.
> 
> Non interventionism is good as policy, but as WW2 proved, there are no rules written in stone.
> 
> 'Hound, the work of change begins and it's going to be a long, painful road, but part of it involves losing some of the rhetoric. I wish I could gaze into my crystal ball and figure out how many votes "basket of deplorables" lost. It was her 47% moment. Personally, I don't even feel that way but if people do, they should start using their inside voice. Meanwhile racism, sexism, deportation, sane gun policy, support for the poorest-we have to address the things we can by working harder, getting involved with our time and our wallets. Early thoughts from me.


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## NYC Composer

I think it's deeper and more nuanced. Don't give people too much credit-they often vote for what they see as their own interests, and many people are fearful of Muslim violence in our borders. They see the loss of manufacturing and jobs outside the service economy. They see a lot of liberals on tv telling them how great things are. Unfortunately, they go for facile solutions.

I started marching in 1961 at 7 years old(obviously with my parents.) got spit on in a picket line. It was informative. I'm ready to start again, but not randomly.

More later-trying to text as I walk my daily 6 miles


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## Diffusor

NYC Composer said:


> Oh, I don't think there is any dearth of Machiavelli behaviour on either side, but I left the Democratic Party 17 years ago, so. You have to admit, he got pretty close for a radical, so all those rigged system stuff seems to be nonsense to some degree.
> 
> One thing I'm waiting for is more exploration into Russian interventionism.




Totally agree to some extent but Bernie sold out. On the "Russian intervention" thing I still call nonsense. Hillary and the Podesta Group are more guilty of Russian collusion than Trump. Have you looked into the Uranium One stuff? Insane. The Clintons are utterly corrupt.


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## NYC Composer

Diffusor said:


> Totally agree to some extent but Bernie sold out. On the "Russian intervention" thing I still call nonsense. Hillary and the Podesta Groups are more guilty of Russian collusion than Trump. Have you looked into the Uranium One stuff? Insane. The Clintons are utterly corrupt.


Logically then, one has to ask themselves why putin was so desperate to have Trump in office.


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## Diffusor

Soundhound said:


> If you voted for Donald Trump, you are ok with racist talk. Does that make you a racist? It does in my book.




I can understand why you think Trump is a racist if all you listened to was the MSM and leftist propaganda. But that is exactly why your side lost in part. Ironic.


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## Diffusor

NYC Composer said:


> Logically then, one has to ask themselves why prudent was so desperate to have Trump in office.


 Prudent?


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## Soundhound

Don't put words in people's mouths if you want to have an intelligent conversation. If you have no interest in an intelligent conversation, I hope you leave this thread. 

Read my posts and then try and think about it. I said he espoused racist ideology, that he pandered to racists in his audience. His father was a racist, and he is very much his father's son. But I never said I know that he's a racist. What I know is that he's gained the presidency by appealing to racism in voters. As I said, he and Sanders were both appealing to people who have suffered economically, but Trump also appealed to xenophobia. 

Are you from NY? I am, I watched this guy from the beginning. He always has been, and always will be, a disgusting person. I'm hoping that he'll be kept in line by the system he's now going to be a part of. That's my hope. 



Diffusor said:


> I can understand why you think Trump is a racist if all you listened to was the MSM and leftist propaganda. But that is exactly why your side lost. Ironic.


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## Diffusor

Please. I read your post and I call bullshit. Trump didn't pander to racists. That's just the narrative you bought into. Trump got more of the hispanic and black vote than McCain or Romney. Explain that! Also, explain why Trump flipped the traditionally blue rust belt states that all voted for a black president in the last two elections, which is what won him this election. You can't explain it with your "narrative". You are simply wrong and you will also lose in 2020 if you and your like keep thinking along the same lines. Trump tapped into blue collar workers and others who had been suffering in this economy, not to racists. You are so caught up in identity politics you can't see this.


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## NYC Composer

Don't leave the thread, please. Just take the vitriol down a little, goes for everyone. Please. Let's talk in facts, numbers, quoted statements. Opinions too, but...cool man. Otherwise it's "you drank the Koolaid" "no, YOU drank the Koolaid." I mean?


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## NYC Composer

Prudent was corrected in 2 minutes


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## Soundhound

I was watching the night of the election Corey Lewandowski talking to Van Jones. He talks exactly the way you do. He's nasty, he's delusional, and he's entitled. 

If you think Trump didn't pander to racists, you're living in a Fox News world. And if you are, we can't talk because you have no idea what's going on in the world. 



Diffusor said:


> Please. I read your post and I call bullshit. Trump didn't pander to racists. That's just the narrative you bought into. Trump got more of the hispanic and black vote than McCain or Romney. Explain that! Also, explain why Trump flipped the traditionally blue rust belt states that all voted for a black president in the last two elections, which is what won him this election. You can't explain it with your "narrative". You are simply wrong and you will also lose in 2020 if you and your like keep thinking along the same lines. Trump tapped into blue collar workers and others who had been suffering in this economy, not to racists. You are so caught up in identity politics you can't see this.


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## NYC Composer

C'mon Hound. Quotes.


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## Diffusor

NYC Composer said:


> Prudent was corrected in 2 minutes




oh okay. Putin. I will tell you my opinion. Clinton and the other neocons are warhawks and they are trying to start the cold war again. Hillary wants a no fly zone over Syria. What do you think will happen if we shoot down a Russian jet over Syria? You guessed it. War with Russia. The Russians are relieved with a Trump win simply because there can be a reset. Hillary and crew were a disaster. Screwed Libya beyond repair. And Iraq too. And Egypt.

Sorry for the "vitriol". I tend to respond in kind when someone escalates with me (not you).


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## Diffusor

Soundhound said:


> I was watching the night of the election Corey Lewandowski talking to Van Jones. He talks exactly the way you do. He's nasty, he's delusional, and he's entitled.
> 
> If you think Trump didn't pander to racists, you're living in a Fox News world. And if you are, we can't talk because you have no idea what's going on in the world.



No, you are living in la la land. I will post the same post that you didn't address my salient points.

"Please. I read your post and I call bullshit. Trump didn't pander to racists. That's just the narrative you bought into. Trump got more of the hispanic and black vote than McCain or Romney. Explain that! Also, explain why Trump flipped the traditionally blue rust belt states that all voted for a black president in the last two elections, which is what won him this election. You can't explain it with your "narrative". You are simply wrong and you will also lose in 2020 if you and your like keep thinking along the same lines. Trump tapped into blue collar workers and others who had been suffering in this economy, not to racists. You are so caught up in identity politics you can't see this."

Let me focus in for you. Trump won because he took the blue rust belt states. That doesn't jive with your narrative. Please explain.


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## NYC Composer

Diffusor said:


> oh okay. Putin. I will tell you my opinion. Clinton and the other neocons are warhawks and they are trying to start the cold war again. Hillary wants a no fly zone over Syria. What do you think will happen if we shoot down a Russian jet over Syria? You guessed it. War with Russia. Hillary and crew were a disaster. Screwed Libya beyond repair. And Iraq too. And Egypt.
> 
> Sorry for the "vitriol". I tend to respond in kind when someone escalates with me (not you).


...and I will tell you mine. Something I read (that I will find later) suggested, in KGB terms, that Putin thinks of Trump as a "useful idiot."
I believe this. Putin has played his politics ruthlessly and brilliantly. He will flatter Trump and carve up the world in ways that increase his power. He knew Clinton to be a much more difficult adversary.


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## Diffusor

NYC Composer said:


> ...and I will tell you mine. Something I read (that I will find later) suggested, in KGB terms, that Putin thinks of Trump as a "useful idiot."
> I believe this. Putin has played his politics ruthlessly and brilliantly. He will flatter Trump and carve up the world in ways that increase his power. He knew Clinton to be a much more difficult adversary.



I see and respect what you are saying but don't agree. So you see Russia as an adversary? I think we need to try and work with Russia. Trump feels the same way. I don't want war.


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## Soundhound

I'll repeat what I said before one more time. I didn't say that Trump won purely on racism. I said, before, read the previous posts before you rant again, that he and Sanders both appealed to people who have been hit by the economic policies of Reagan era, and post reagan republicanism, with the democrats following suit. I said, before, and am saying again, that Trump cynically used racist language, xenophobia and scapegoating to connect with that audience on an emotional level. It alienated some people, some people found it disturbing but were interested in changing the system, and so they were ok with voting for someone saying those things even though they didn't feel the same way. And then there are people who are racist, and they love him all the more for it.

Try reading that slowly. Thinking about how it answers your post quite clearly. Then write a reasoned, thoughtful response. If you can.

<<
No, you are living in la la land. I will post the same post that you didn't address my salient points.

"Please. I read your post and I call bullshit. Trump didn't pander to racists. That's just the narrative you bought into. Trump got more of the hispanic and black vote than McCain or Romney. Explain that! Also, explain why Trump flipped the traditionally blue rust belt states that all voted for a black president in the last two elections, which is what won him this election. You can't explain it with your "narrative". You are simply wrong and you will also lose in 2020 if you and your like keep thinking along the same lines. Trump tapped into blue collar workers and others who had been suffering in this economy, not to racists. You are so caught up in identity politics you can't see this."

Let me focus in for you. Trump won because he took the blue rust belt states. That doesn't jive with your narrative. Please explain.
>>


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## Diffusor

Soundhound said:


> I'll repeat what I said before one more time. I didn't say that Trump won purely on racism. I said, before, read the previous posts before you rant again, that he and Sanders both appealed to people who have been hit by the economic policies of Reagan era, and post reagan republicanism, with the democrats following suit. I said, before, and am saying again, that Trump cynically used racist language, xenophobia and scapegoating to connect with that audience on an emotional level. It alienated some people, some people found it disturbing but were interested in changing the system, and so they were ok with voting for someone saying those things even though they didn't feel the same way. And then there are people who are racist, and they love him all the more for it.
> 
> Try reading that slowly. Thinking about how it answers your post quite clearly. Then write a reasoned, thoughtful response. If you can.
> 
> <<
> No, you are living in la la land. I will post the same post that you didn't address my salient points.
> 
> "Please. I read your post and I call bullshit. Trump didn't pander to racists. That's just the narrative you bought into. Trump got more of the hispanic and black vote than McCain or Romney. Explain that! Also, explain why Trump flipped the traditionally blue rust belt states that all voted for a black president in the last two elections, which is what won him this election. You can't explain it with your "narrative". You are simply wrong and you will also lose in 2020 if you and your like keep thinking along the same lines. Trump tapped into blue collar workers and others who had been suffering in this economy, not to racists. You are so caught up in identity politics you can't see this."
> 
> Let me focus in for you. Trump won because he took the blue rust belt states. That doesn't jive with your narrative. Please explain.
> >>




Quite the revisionist tale there. That's not what you said at all. lol I will post what you said verbatim below. You are backtracking to save face. I will ask yet again. Trump won the election because he won the traditionally rust belt blue states. Are you saying these blue states are now racist? It's telling you are not answering this question. Please explain.

"Larry I agree but only to a point. People don't generally cry at elections. Not like this. People are frightened because someone who espoused hate and intolerance is going to be in control of the country. Maybe it was all a game and he only used it to get elected. I hope that's true, but my suspicion is that it's only partly true.

The dems lost their way by buckling under to the pressure and tactics of the far right. From Reagan on. I marched in the streets when I was a kid, but I did it because my parents did it and took me along. This is the first time I've felt like doing it in my adult life. Sweeping hate and intolerance under the rug is a leap too far for me. Call a spade a spade. This is a shameful episode in our history and I don't think making believe it didn't happen is a constructive way forward.

If you voted for Donald Trump, you are ok with racist talk. Does that make you a racist? It does in my book."


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## chimuelo

Tomorrow's Intelligence, not yesterday's news or fake racism.
Why do Liberals keep losing over and over and over?
Fake racism?


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## Soundhound

Yes, that is what I said. Sounds like you are so filled with hate and intolerance, you can't see the argument that's being made. 



Diffusor said:


> Quite the revisionist tale there. That's not what you said at all. lol I will post what you said verbatim below. You are backtracking to save face. I will ask yet again. Trump won the election because he won the traditionally rust belt blue states. Are you saying these blue states are now racist? It's telling you are not answering this question. Please explain.
> 
> "Larry I agree but only to a point. People don't generally cry at elections. Not like this. People are frightened because someone who espoused hate and intolerance is going to be in control of the country. Maybe it was all a game and he only used it to get elected. I hope that's true, but my suspicion is that it's only partly true.
> 
> The dems lost their way by buckling under to the pressure and tactics of the far right. From Reagan on. I marched in the streets when I was a kid, but I did it because my parents did it and took me along. This is the first time I've felt like doing it in my adult life. Sweeping hate and intolerance under the rug is a leap too far for me. Call a spade a spade. This is a shameful episode in our history and I don't think making believe it didn't happen is a constructive way forward.
> 
> If you voted for Donald Trump, you are ok with racist talk. Does that make you a racist? It does in my book."


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## Diffusor

Soundhound said:


> Yes, that is what I said. Sounds like you are so filled with hate and intolerance, you can't see the argument that's being made.




Trump won the election because he won the traditionally rust belt blue states. Are you saying these once blue states are now racist, intolerant and hate filled? I am talking about Michigan, Wisconsin and PA. It's telling you are not answering this question. Please explain.


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## Soundhound

How many times do I have to explain it? To someone who just doesn't want to hear it, the answer would be an infinite number of times of course:

I'll repeat what I said before one more time. I didn't say that Trump won purely on racism. I said, before, read the previous posts before you rant again, that he and Sanders both appealed to people who have been hit by the economic policies of Reagan era, and post reagan republicanism, with the democrats following suit. I said, before, and am saying again, that Trump cynically used racist language, xenophobia and scapegoating to connect with that audience on an emotional level. It alienated some people, some people found it disturbing but were interested in changing the system, and so they were ok with voting for someone saying those things even though they didn't feel the same way. And then there are people who are racist, and they love him all the more for it.


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## Diffusor

Soundhound said:


> How many times do I have to explain it? To someone who just doesn't want to hear it, the answer would be an infinite number of times of course:
> 
> I'll repeat what I said before one more time. I didn't say that Trump won purely on racism. I said, before, read the previous posts before you rant again, that he and Sanders both appealed to people who have been hit by the economic policies of Reagan era, and post reagan republicanism, with the democrats following suit. I said, before, and am saying again, that Trump cynically used racist language, xenophobia and scapegoating to connect with that audience on an emotional level. It alienated some people, some people found it disturbing but were interested in changing the system, and so they were ok with voting for someone saying those things even though they didn't feel the same way. And then there are people who are racist, and they love him all the more for it.




Sorry you lost the argument. You are backtracking. What you are saying now is not what you said I quoted from you and am referring to. I will ask yet again.....

Trump won the election because he won the traditionally rust belt blue states. Are you saying these once blue states are now racist, intolerant and hate filled? I am talking about Michigan, Wisconsin and PA. It's telling you are not answering these questions. Please explain.

Let me focus even more into it for you. Would Trump have won without the traditionally rust belt states that flipped for him? Even given you your "racist" narrative that doesn't explain the win.

Please explain....


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## NYC Composer

chimuelo said:


> Tomorrow's Intelligence, not yesterday's news or fake racism.
> Why do Liberals keep losing over and over and over?
> Fake racism?


You mean how come they don't stay in power forever? Umm. Ok. If that's the question, why do conservatives keep losing? Racism? ('92, '96, 2008, 20012...)


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## Red

Oh boy. Looks like dow jones is up all time high. along with nasdaq.

Guess what I did yesterday. immediately after I won the election bet.

2 for 2.

Trump will be an okay president.

On a non-related note, what are some good swiss watch brands?


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## NYC Composer

again. I am respectfully asking that no one accuse anyone else of "ranting" or being "blinded by..." or or or. If you can't recognize minimizing language well enough not to use it, please go start your own thread where everyone agrees with you.


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## NYC Composer

Red said:


> Oh boy. Looks like dow jones is up all time high. along with nasdaq.
> 
> Guess what I did yesterday. immediately after I won the election bet.
> 
> 2 for 2.
> 
> Trump will be an okay president.
> 
> On a non-related note, what are some good swiss watch brands?


What will Trump do that will make him an okay President?


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## Soundhound

It's not possible to be backtracking by reposting what I said before.

Either you can't see the nuance, or you refuse to. Regardless, you are just repeating what you've been told on Fox News. You are not open to critical thinking. Trump is your man. Congratulations. 

My godson bumped into someone on the street yesterday, and was told to 'move over, nigger'. At my niece's school today, kids were called into the principals office for sending anti-semitic emails. This is what Trump has unleashed. It's now ok to be like that. It's disgusting. 

Since New Gingrich and The Contract ON America, right wingers have been imbued with a righteousness, a feeling that they are the one and true way. It's never been more true than today. Your manner of discussion is a perfect example. You own Trump. He's your boy. 



Diffusor said:


> Sorry you lost the argument. You are backtracking. What you are saying now is not what you said I quoted from you and am referring to. I will ask yet again.....
> 
> Trump won the election because he won the traditionally rust belt blue states. Are you saying these once blue states are now racist, intolerant and hate filled? I am talking about Michigan, Wisconsin and PA. It's telling you are not answering these question. Please explain.
> 
> Let me focus even more into it for you. Would Trump have won without the traditionally rust belt states that flipped for him? Even given you your "racist" narrative that doesn't explain the win.
> 
> Please explain....





Diffusor said:


> Sorry you lost the argument. You are backtracking. What you are saying now is not what you said I quoted from you and am referring to. I will ask yet again.....
> 
> Trump won the election because he won the traditionally rust belt blue states. Are you saying these once blue states are now racist, intolerant and hate filled? I am talking about Michigan, Wisconsin and PA. It's telling you are not answering these question. Please explain.
> 
> Let me focus even more into it for you. Would Trump have won without the traditionally rust belt states that flipped for him? Even given you your "racist" narrative that doesn't explain the win.
> 
> Please explain....


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## Soundhound

If he sees that he's out of his depths and doesn't rely on right wing radicals, his background as a builder and his expressed wish to create jobs could result in a gigantic works program to rebuild our third world, crumbling infrastructure. That would be very good. 



NYC Composer said:


> What will Trump do that will make him an okay President?


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## NYC Composer

Diffusor said:


> Trump won the election because he won the traditionally rust belt blue states. Are you saying these once blue states are now racist, intolerant and hate filled? I am talking about Michigan, Wisconsin and PA. It's telling you are not answering this question. Please explain.


i think that's a very good question and one I want to explore. I suspect the idea of "bringing jobs back" was the "it's the economy, stupid" message of this election. However, since he's articulated no actual plan to do so, it's going to be be interesting.


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## NYC Composer

Soundhound said:


> If he sees that he's out of his depths and doesn't rely on right wing radicals, his background as a builder and his expressed wish to create jobs could result in a gigantic works program to rebuild our third world, crumbling infrastructure. That would be very good.


Yes, we had the same thought except the people surrounding him hate "government." Hmmm.


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## NYC Composer

Soundhound said:


> It's not possible to be backtracking by reposting what I said before.
> 
> Either you can't see the nuance, or you refuse to. Regardless, you are just repeating what you've been told on Fox News. You are not open to critical thinking. Trump is your man. Congratulations.
> 
> My godson bumped into someone on the street yesterday, and was told to 'move over, nigger'. At my niece's school today, kids were called into the principals office for sending anti-semitic emails. This is what Trump has unleashed. It's now ok to be like that. It's disgusting.
> 
> Since New Gingrich and The Contract ON America, right wingers have been imbued with a righteousness, a feeling that they are the one and true way. It's never been more true than today. Your manner of discussion is a perfect example. You own Trump. He's your boy.


Pretty anecdotal, but that sort of thing will just energize the liberal base if it continues. I don't really buy it.


----------



## Soundhound

I'm just relaying my personal experience. I'm sorry you don't buy it. You mean you think I made it up?


----------



## NYC Composer

Soundhound said:


> Either you can't see the nuance, or you refuse to. Regardless, you are just repeating what you've been told on Fox News. You are not open to critical thinking. Trump is your man. Congratulations.
> 
> You own Trump. He's your boy.



Extremely unproductive personal attack. I have asked you three times now


----------



## Soundhound

I know, I'm grasping at straws. 



NYC Composer said:


> Yes, we had the same thought except the people surrounding him hate "government." Hmmm.


----------



## Diffusor

Soundhound said:


> It's not possible to be backtracking by reposting what I said before.
> 
> Either you can't see the nuance, or you refuse to. Regardless, you are just repeating what you've been told on Fox News. You are not open to critical thinking. Trump is your man. Congratulations.
> 
> My godson bumped into someone on the street yesterday, and was told to 'move over, nigger'. At my niece's school today, kids were called into the principals office for sending anti-semitic emails. This is what Trump has unleashed. It's now ok to be like that. It's disgusting.
> 
> Since New Gingrich and The Contract ON America, right wingers have been imbued with a righteousness, a feeling that they are the one and true way. It's never been more true than today. Your manner of discussion is a perfect example. You own Trump. He's your boy.




dude, I can't even take you seriously anymore. You can't even answer my simple question I asked repeatedly. Because if you answered it you would have to admit how wrong you really are. You have objectively and utterly lost the argument to any rational non-biased person.


----------



## Soundhound

Since you repeatedly misrepresented what I've said, and just keep repeated the things you've been told on Fox News, I stopped taking you seriously a while ago. 



Diffusor said:


> dude, I can't even take you seriously anymore. You objectively and utterly lost the argument to any rational non-biased person.


----------



## NYC Composer

Soundhound said:


> I'm just relaying my personal experience. I'm sorry you don't buy it. You mean you think I made it up?


 Of course not. I think it's anecdotal and doesn't represent a Trump Trend. Racist incidents go on all day every day in every facet of society. If I'm wrong, believe me, I'll be all over it.


----------



## NYC Composer

Diffusor, you're not suggesting you're "non-biased", are you?


----------



## JonFairhurst

The Trump racist boat left the dock some time ago. It's in the rear view mirror and doesn't relate to this thread, which is "The Way Forward." Let's wait to see if he takes racist (or anti-racist) actions in the future and respond to those acts.

More prescient is "what do progressives do next?" Let's take a page from the right wing playbook. After losing big to Obama, they created the Tea Party. It was just far enough from the GOP to act radically, but close enough to bring support. The radical views get normalized over time. The shift the center in their directions.

The Tea Party had these characteristics:
1) Theater. The hats were cool. The tea bags were, um, unfortunate - but they got press.
2) A patriotic theme.
3) A revolutionary theme.
4) A clear basis, which was a conservative reading of the Constitution. (Yes, other groups tacked on abortion, etc. Expect that.)

Progressives need a new side-party. We can assume that Trump will embrace authoritarianism (i.e. Giuliani), cronyism (um, Trump), and oligarcy (Putin). The identity of the new party needs to be centered around active and aggressive opposition to Trumpism as well as for a positive vision of the true role of government. The feeling can't be of business-as-usual, centrism, or triangulation. This is a battle for the brave at heart.

We need a clarion call. "We are taking our rights back."

We need a compelling name with compelling imagery. Something like the "Bravehearts" Party. (Hey, it lends itself to costume and theater!)

And we need clear, strong goals. For instance, "the economic extinction of oligarchs." Nothing mamby-pamby like "a 5.6 percent increase on the annual income of those making over $10M per year." It needs to have a feeling similar to the trust busting of 100 years ago.

At the same time, we need show the logic of it all. A key problem with our current economy is oversupply and under-demand. The goals of the new party need to right this ship.

Finally, we need charismatic leaders. Frankly, Bernie is too old. But Trump's election opens new doors. In the past, people couldn't admit that they inhaled in college. People with "histories" knew not to run for high office. That limited the slate. From now on, people can own their mistakes proudly and say, that's nothing compared to what Trump has done. If the new leaders are brave and proud and show no shame, there is no negative story for the press to cover for more than a week.

This is just the first year strategy. In the second year, the Bravehearts (or whatever they might be called) run for office from school boards to the Senate.

As they say, the difference between a mob and a movement is the follow through.

Eventually, this gives enough space for a true (but not necessarily radical) president to be elected. It will become the new middle.


----------



## Diffusor

NYC Composer said:


> Diffusor, you're not suggesting you're "non-biased", are you?




Well can you answer the question Soundhound won't which I asked him repeatly? How can we have an honest conversation when he doesn't answer the question in light of his assertions. Here it is......

"Trump won the election because he won the traditionally rust belt blue states. Are you saying these once blue states are now racist, intolerant and hate filled? I am talking about Michigan, Wisconsin and PA. It's telling you are not answering these questions. Please explain."


----------



## Soundhound

Oh okay. I was surprised to hear those things as well. My godson was walking down a street in Santa Monica. My niece is at NYC high school. This is not out in rural America, aside from concern for family, that's what got my attention.



NYC Composer said:


> Of course not. I think it's anecdotal and doesn't represent a Trump Trend. Racist incidents go on all day every day in every facet of society. If I'm wrong, believe me, I'll be all over it.


----------



## Soundhound

I'm torn between this and trying to work within the democratic party. Maybe that's useless at this point...



JonFairhurst said:


> The Trump racist boat left the dock some time ago. It's in the rear view mirror and doesn't relate to this thread, which is "The Way Forward." Let's wait to see if he takes racist (or anti-racist) actions in the future and respond to those acts.
> 
> More prescient is "what do progressives do next?" Let's take a page from the right wing playbook. After losing big to Obama, they created the Tea Party. It was just far enough from the GOP to act radically, but close enough to bring support. The radical views get normalized over time. The shift the center in their directions.
> 
> The Tea Party had these characteristics:
> 1) Theater. The hats were cool. The tea bags were, um, unfortunate - but they got press.
> 2) A patriotic theme.
> 3) A revolutionary theme.
> 4) A clear basis, which was a conservative reading of the Constitution. (Yes, other groups tacked on abortion, etc. Expect that.)
> 
> Progressives need a new side-party. We can assume that Trump will embrace authoritarianism (i.e. Giuliani), cronyism (um, Trump), and oligarcy (Putin). The identity of the new party needs to be centered around active and aggressive opposition to Trumpism as well as for a positive vision of the true role of government. The feeling can't be of business-as-usual, centrism, or triangulation. This is a battle for the brave at heart.
> 
> We need a clarion call. "We are taking our rights back."
> 
> We need a compelling name with compelling imagery. Something like the "Bravehearts" Party. (Hey, it lends itself to costume and theater!)
> 
> And we need clear, strong goals. For instance, "the economic extinction of oligarchs." Nothing mamby-pamby like "a 5.6 percent increase on the annual income of those making over $10M per year." It needs to have a feeling similar to the trust busting of 100 years ago.
> 
> At the same time, we need show the logic of it all. A key problem with our current economy is oversupply and under-demand. The goals of the new party need to right this ship.
> 
> Finally, we need charismatic leaders. Frankly, Bernie is too old. But Trump's election opens new doors. In the past, people couldn't admit that they inhaled in college. People with "histories" knew not to run for high office. That limited the slate. From now on, people can own their mistakes proudly and say, that's nothing compared to what Trump has done. If the new leaders are brave and proud and show no shame, there is no negative story for the press to cover for more than a week.
> 
> This is just the first year strategy. In the second year, the Bravehearts (or whatever they might be called) run for office from school boards to the Senate.
> 
> As they say, the difference between a mob and a movement is the follow through.
> 
> Eventually, this gives enough space for a true (but not necessarily radical) president to be elected. It will become the new middle.


----------



## NYC Composer

I didn't


Diffusor said:


> Well can you answer the question Soundhound won't which I asked him repeatly? How can we have an honest conversation when he doesn't answer the question in light of his assertions. Here it is......
> 
> "Trump won the election because he won the traditionally rust belt blue states. Are you saying these once blue states are now racist, intolerant and hate filled? I am talking about Michigan, Wisconsin and PA. It's telling you are not answering these questions. Please explain."


i did answer it, if you look back, but that's not the question I asked you. I asked if you see yourself as "unbiased."


----------



## Diffusor

Soundhound said:


> Oh okay. I was surprised to hear those things as well. My godson was walking down a street in Santa Monica. My niece is at NYC high school. This is not out in rural America, aside from concern for family, that's what got my attention.




I call nonsense. I am in the the southeast bible belt. I never hear racist stuff. In fact people here are so scared of being labeled a racist it's unthinkable to utter even the slightest racial epithet in public. Maybe its different in the more "liberal" parts of the country.


----------



## NYC Composer

JonFairhurst said:


> The Trump racist boat left the dock some time ago. It's in the rear view mirror and doesn't relate to this thread, which is "The Way Forward." Let's wait to see if he takes racist (or anti-racist) actions in the future and respond to those acts.
> 
> More prescient is "what do progressives do next?" Let's take a page from the right wing playbook. After losing big to Obama, they created the Tea Party. It was just far enough from the GOP to act radically, but close enough to bring support. The radical views get normalized over time. The shift the center in their directions.
> 
> The Tea Party had these characteristics:
> 1) Theater. The hats were cool. The tea bags were, um, unfortunate - but they got press.
> 2) A patriotic theme.
> 3) A revolutionary theme.
> 4) A clear basis, which was a conservative reading of the Constitution. (Yes, other groups tacked on abortion, etc. Expect that.)
> 
> Progressives need a new side-party. We can assume that Trump will embrace authoritarianism (i.e. Giuliani), cronyism (um, Trump), and oligarcy (Putin). The identity of the new party needs to be centered around active and aggressive opposition to Trumpism as well as for a positive vision of the true role of government. The feeling can't be of business-as-usual, centrism, or triangulation. This is a battle for the brave at heart.
> 
> We need a clarion call. "We are taking our rights back."
> 
> We need a compelling name with compelling imagery. Something like the "Bravehearts" Party. (Hey, it lends itself to costume and theater!)
> 
> And we need clear, strong goals. For instance, "the economic extinction of oligarchs." Nothing mamby-pamby like "a 5.6 percent increase on the annual income of those making over $10M per year." It needs to have a feeling similar to the trust busting of 100 years ago.
> 
> At the same time, we need show the logic of it all. A key problem with our current economy is oversupply and under-demand. The goals of the new party need to right this ship.
> 
> Finally, we need charismatic leaders. Frankly, Bernie is too old. But Trump's election opens new doors. In the past, people couldn't admit that they inhaled in college. People with "histories" knew not to run for high office. That limited the slate. From now on, people can own their mistakes proudly and say, that's nothing compared to what Trump has done. If the new leaders are brave and proud and show no shame, there is no negative story for the press to cover for more than a week.
> 
> This is just the first year strategy. In the second year, the Bravehearts (or whatever they might be called) run for office from school boards to the Senate.
> 
> As they say, the difference between a mob and a movement is the follow through.
> 
> Eventually, this gives enough space for a true (but not necessarily radical) president to be elected. It will become the new middle.


Jon, that was a brilliant, thoughtful and very absorbing and on point post. I'll dig into it and respond later, but thank you.


----------



## NYC Composer

Diffusor said:


> I call nonsense. I am in the the southeast bible belt. I never hear racist stuff. In fact people here are so scared of being labeled a racist it's unthinkable to utter even the slightest racial epithet in public.


Or you could just disagree respectfully. Please.


----------



## Soundhound

Ok I'm not seeing it. That other guy wasn't behaving rudely? Just me? If so I'm not seeing it and I'll bow out. 



NYC Composer said:


> Extremely unproductive personal attack. I have asked you three times now


----------



## Diffusor

NYC Composer said:


> I didn't
> 
> i did answer it, if you look back, but that's not the question I asked you. I asked if you see yourself as "unbiased."




No I am not unbiased. But Soundhound is clearly losing my argument with him because he won't answer the question I have repeatedly asked which totally destroys his assertions.


----------



## Soundhound

I am in the southeast as well, for the first time. And I have heard racist talk more often than I'd like to admit in the short time I've been here. 



Diffusor said:


> I call nonsense. I am in the the southeast bible belt. I never hear racist stuff. In fact people here are so scared of being labeled a racist it's unthinkable to utter even the slightest racial epithet in public. Maybe its different in the more "liberal" parts of the country.


----------



## Soundhound

I answered your question at least three times quite directly. 



Diffusor said:


> No I am not unbiased. But Soundhound is clearly losing my argument with him because he won't answer the question I have repeatedly asked which totally destroys his assertions.


----------



## Diffusor

Soundhound said:


> I answered your question at least three times quite directly.




No you didn't at all. lol. Could Trump have won without winning the traditionally blue wall rust belt states? Simple question. Yes or no.


----------



## Soundhound

Okay for the last time. Trump's campaign was predicated on appealing to a wide group of people who feel both economically and socially ostracized. People who feel their way of life has been marginalized. To people whose jobs were lost to overseas manufacturing he made what on the surface is a reasonable promise "I will bring your jobs back". Great promise. The problem is this was overlayed with a scapegoating of immigrants and minorities. If he had won purely on the economic argument, that would be different. But he didn't. He played into people's fears about a wave of immigrants taking their jobs. He cynically used racist dog whistles to appeal to the segment of the population that responds to that. It was decisive, corrosive and dangerous. 

Does that answer your question?


----------



## NYC Composer

The obvious answer is "no, he could not have won without those states. The reasons he won them are another matter. Why is that hard, Hound?

And yes, I asked him to speak respectfully if you scroll back. 

But c'mon. The question is forward. How are they going to "repeal and replace"
Obamacare without throwing millions off the roles, allowing insurance companies to once again deny coverage for "pre-existing conditions", etc? How are they going to bring costs down? Are they going to change the law to allow interstate commerce (something that makes sense to me.) I don't think you can put the genie back in the bottle.

Frankly, if they can come up with a plan that covers everyone, I don't care if they call it Trump-o-Care, but if I know Paul Ryan, I smell vouchers!


----------



## Diffusor

NYC Composer said:


> The obvious answer is "no, he could not have won without those states. The reasons he won them are another matter. Why is that hard, Hound?
> 
> And yes, I asked him to speak respectfully if you scroll back.
> 
> But c'mon. The question is forward. How are they going to "repeal and replace"
> Obamacare without throwing millions off the roles, allowing insurance companies to once again deny coverage for "pre-existing conditions", etc? How are they going to bring costs down? Are they going to change the law to allow interstate commerce (something that makes sense to me.) I don't think you can put the genie back in the bottle.
> 
> Frankly, if they can come up with a plan that covers everyone, I don't care if they call it Trump-o-Care, but if I know Paul Ryan, I smell vouchers!




I am liking what I am hearing you are saying here! Common ground brother.


----------



## Diffusor

Soundhound said:


> Okay for the last time. Trump's campaign was predicated on appealing to a wide group of people who feel both economically and socially ostracized. People who feel their way of life has been marginalized. To people whose jobs were lost to overseas manufacturing he made what on the surface is a reasonable promise "I will bring your jobs back". Great promise. The problem is this was overlayed with a scapegoating of immigrants and minorities. If he had won purely on the economic argument, that would be different. But he didn't. He played into people's fears about a wave of immigrants taking their jobs. He cynically used racist dog whistles to appeal to the segment of the population that responds to that. It was decisive, corrosive and dangerous.
> 
> Does that answer your question?




That's not what you were saying earlier. And I still don't agree. The rust belt states didn't flip because of racist dialogue. You are out of touch completely.


----------



## chimuelo

Larry Medicaid is where 9000000 people went, the rest to Obamacare.
So let's give States some credit here or the bull shit ACA would have served half of those it claims as subscribers.
Dental Vision and Preventive care are included.
This really isn't a giant complex liberal goat phuck.

And let's set the record straight on fake racism.
Democrats left to join Trump because they're tired of being called racist because they despise 10 trillion wasted on bull shit agendas.

Hillary spent way too much with actors actresses singers dancers than visiting these former Democratic districts.

Watching movie stars crying on Twitter threatening to leave the USA just tells them they did the right thing in a bull shit race.

Time to roll up the sleeves.
If not there's plenty of grief counsellors returning from Hollywood after a month of 24/7 therapy.


----------



## Soundhound

Again, you're not reading what I'm saying. As Larry said, he didn't win on racism. But he used it to get the ear of many voters. Which is reprehensible and has poisoned the national dialogue and could have bad consequences. And yes, many voters that he appealed to are indeed racist. 

Larry I'm supposed to be civil when someone else is being this rude? 



Diffusor said:


> That's not what you were saying earlier. And I still don't agree. The rust belt states didn't flip because of racist dialogue. You are out of touch completely.


----------



## Diffusor

Anyways, I will give my two cents and be done with this. I haven't posted in this forum for awhile because honestly it's been a liberal echo chamber. But I am engaging now because I want to let you guys know from the perspective of a Trump supporter. I helped Trump win in North Carolina. You guys can call me a racist, sexist, xenophobe, homophobe all you want but I will tell you the real deal with this "movement" and be totally frank.....

You liberal people are totally screwed now. The pendulum has swung abruptly to the right after 8 years of failed progressive policies. People are fed up. You have failed. Here is the frank reality. The right owns the Senate, the House and the Presidency. And will soon ensure a conservative Supreme Court for the next 50 years. You guys got greedy. You guys pissed off a lot of people. You have now lost. This movement is a mandate against everything Obama did in the last 8 years. It will soon be corrected. You own this. You have earned it. You don't "get" it at all.

Anyway, I have said my peace. Heed my warning if you want. Ban me or chastise me as well. If you refuse to listen to us and understand why you will guarantee Trump until 2024 and even beyond with one of his sons. Trump could be a incredible president and might do great good. He might be a disaster. But your reign has ended. Elections have consequences right?

Peace.....


----------



## NYC Composer

I don't see it recently, hound. He asked you to give him a straight answer on the Rust Belt states. 

I really really don't want "you can't think straight because you're a foxnewscnbcliberalconservativemoronheadupyourass" etc etc.


----------



## Diffusor

Soundhound said:


> Again, you're not reading what I'm saying. As Larry said, he didn't win on racism. But he used it to get the ear of many voters. Which is reprehensible and has poisoned the national dialogue and could have bad consequences. And yes, many voters that he appealed to are indeed racist.
> 
> Larry I'm supposed to be civil when someone else is being this rude?




Nope. You need to own this. You were saying Trump won on racism. Without a fucking doubt. Answer my question.


----------



## Soundhound

This is exactly the same kind of thing I heard from Corey Lewandowski speaking with Van Jones the other night. There are good you tube videos of it. He was rude and angry, incredibly ungracious and petulant. This is what I'm afraid is the voice of so many Trump supporters. It's what Trump tapped into, not caring about the consequences.

Obama spent four years trying to reach across the aisle, and got nowhere. He was rejected out of hand. So I agree with Jon, what is needed is a movement against intolerance. And I hope it's not necessary, but also against the horrible mess the radical right is going to make of this country once again.




Diffusor said:


> Anyways, I will give my two cents and be done with this. I haven't posted in this forum for awhile because honestly it's been a liberal echo chamber. But I am engaging now because I want to let you guys know from the perspective of a Trump supporter. I helped Trump win in North Carolina. You guys can call me a racist, sexist, xenophobe, homophobe all you want but I will tell you the real deal with this "movement" and be totally frank.
> 
> You liberal people are totally screwed now. The pendulum has swung abruptly to the right after 8 years of failed progressive policies. People are fed up. You have failed. Here is the frank reality. The right owns the Senate, the House and the Presidency. And will soon ensure a conservative Supreme Court for the next 50 years. You guys got greedy. You guys pissed off a lot of people. You have now lost. This movement is a mandate against everything Obama did in the last 8 years. It will soon be corrected. You own this. You have earned it. You don't "get" it at all.
> 
> Anyway, I have said my peace. Heed my warning if you want. Ban me or chastise me as well. If you refuse to listen to us and understand why you will guarantee Trump until 2024 and even beyond with one of his sons. Trump could be a incredible president and might do great good. He might be a disaster. But your reign has ended. Elections have consequences right?
> 
> Peace.....


----------



## NYC Composer

Diffusor-thanks for removing any possibility of civil conversation after I welcomed you. Thanks for expressing your opinion so frankly. I guess it was all about your team then, and you came here to celebrate instead of having a constructive conversation. Congratulations on your team win. America, however, is a long game. Prepare for more struggle. I
oppose your rhetoric, and in the long run, it will be defeated.


----------



## Soundhound

Cut and paste the quote. I said no such thing. If you are predisposed to hear it that way, then you will hear it that way. 



Diffusor said:


> Nope. You need to own this. You were saying Trump won on racism. Without a fucking doubt.


----------



## Red

Diffusor said:


> it's been a liberal echo chamber



Nah. You watch. The snakes and bats are gonna switch sides real quick, singing a different tune.


----------



## Diffusor

NYC Composer said:


> Diffusor-thanks fir removing any possibility of civil conversation after I welcomed you. Thanks for expressing your opinion so frankly. I guess it was all about your team then, and you came here to celebrate instead of having a constructive conversation. Congratulations on your team win. America, however, is a long game. Prepare for more struggle. I
> oppose your rhetoric, and in the long run, it will be defeated.




All I can say is good luck. You will need it. You were surprised by Trump winning right? Not surprising at all.


----------



## chimuelo

Alright so much for the intellectuals stupidity....

Medicaid, NOW...pass costs to payroll taxes, tack it onto Medicare, etc.

NEXT......


----------



## Diffusor

Soundhound said:


> Cut and paste the quote. I said no such thing. If you are predisposed to hear it that way, then you will hear it that way.




Nope.  You are an absolutely dishonest person. Regardless. Like I said, you are totally screwed for the next 8 years.


----------



## NYC Composer

4 years of presidency, 2 of Congress.


----------



## Diffusor

Soundhound said:


> This is exactly the same kind of thing I heard from Corey Lewandowski speaking with Van Jones the other night. There are good you tube videos of it. He was rude and angry, incredibly ungracious and petulant. This is what I'm afraid is the voice of so many Trump supporters. It's what Trump tapped into, not caring about the consequences.
> 
> Obama spent four years trying to reach across the aisle, and got nowhere. He was rejected out of hand. So I agree with Jon, what is needed is a movement against intolerance. And I hope it's not necessary, but also against the horrible mess the radical right is going to make of this country once again.




Obama has been the most un-transparent and noncooperative president ever. Amazing. You guys totally just got your asses handed to you in this election and you are still in denial.


----------



## NYC Composer

How would that work Jimmy?


----------



## Diffusor

NYC Composer said:


> 4 years of presidency, 2 of Congress.




If you don't relate to what I am saying it will be 8 or more. I am just saying.... I don't care if you want to listen or not. Good for us because you are out of touch. Blue rust belt states have flipped! You don't get the implications of that? Watch the Michael Moore doc Trumpland to get perspective. He warned of a Trump presidency many months ago. He totally gets the real deal.


----------



## Soundhound

So... single payer?



chimuelo said:


> Alright so much for the intellectuals stupidity....
> 
> Medicaid, NOW...pass costs to payroll taxes, tack it onto Medicare, etc.
> 
> NEXT......


----------



## NYC Composer

Red said:


> Nah. You watch. The snakes and bats are gonna switch sides real quick, singing a different tune.


Who are snakes and bats, exactly?


----------



## NYC Composer

Diffusor said:


> If you don't relate to what I am saying it will be 8 or more. I am just saying.... I don't care if you want to listen or not. Good for us because you are out of touch. Blue rust belt states have flipped! You don't get the implications of that? Watch the Michael Moore doc Trumpland to get perspective. He warned of a Trump presidency many months ago.


I started a thread that ended up with 35,000 posts because I understood the threat and what liberals were taking for granted, but my friend, the same country that elected Trump elected Obama twice and might have elected him a third time. This is a long game, and the pendulum swings.


----------



## Diffusor

NYC Composer said:


> I started a thread that ended up with 35,000 posts because I understood the threat and what liberals were taking for granted, but my friend, the same country that elected Trump elected Obama twice and might have elected him a third time. This is a long game, and the pendulum swings.




Right, that's exactly what I am saying and is why I am engaging with you to try to get you to understand why Trump won. If you don't really understand why he won the Trumps will be in office for 8 years plus. Just a warning...


----------



## woodsdenis

Diffusor said:


> . If you refuse to listen to us and understand why you will guarantee Trump until 2024 and even beyond with one of his sons.
> 
> Peace.....



One of his sons ? Which one as matter of interest do you see as a potential leader of the free world.


----------



## Diffusor

woodsdenis said:


> One of his sons ? Which one as matter of interest do you see as a potential leader of the free world.




Both of them are probably smarter and more well spoken than even Donald Sr. Check out what Scott Adams has to say on the Trump phenomena if you want to learn why he bested your team.

anyway, as I predicted this dialogue is pointless and is just triggering everyone. Please feel free to ban me.


----------



## woodsdenis

Diffusor said:


> Both of them are probably smarter than even Donald Sr.
> 
> anyway, as I predicted this dialogue is pointless and is just triggering everyone. Please feel free to ban me.


I am smarter than Donald Sr but presidential material I am not !!!!


----------



## Diffusor

woodsdenis said:


> I am smarter than Donald Sr but presidential material I am not !!!!




hehe! Nope. You totally underestimate what Trump has accomplished. Trump has played this whole election purposely. Art of the Deal. He played the media and his opponents. He is highly intelligent. You just don't get it. Like I said, look up Scott Adams (of Dilbert fame) and read what he has to say about Trump. He predicted this Trump win many months ago as well for different reasons.


----------



## NYC Composer

I'm not a mod, I don't have banning powers and wouldn't ban anyone if I did. I welcomed you here, as someone I disagree with but am perfectly willing to debate. I think you should reach down for your better self, stop celebrating and talk to fellow Americans about what you think in a civil manner without as much obvious vitriol and impolite whooping.


----------



## woodsdenis

The fact that he won doesn't make him smart, just the people that voted for him stupid.


----------



## Diffusor

NYC Composer said:


> I'm not a mod, I don't have banning powers and wouldn't ban anyone if I did . I welcomed you here, as someone I disagree with but am perfectly willing to debate. I think you should reach down for your better self, stop celebrating and talk to fellow Americans about what you think in a civil manner without as much obvious vitriol and impolite whooping.




I am reaching out to you civilly. You are just not liking what I am saying.


----------



## Diffusor

woodsdenis said:


> The fact that he won doesn't make him smart, just the people that voted for him stupid.




Keep thinking that and see what you will get.


----------



## woodsdenis

Diffusor said:


> Keep thinking that and see what you will get.


What exactly will that be , sounds vaguely like a threat


----------



## Diffusor

woodsdenis said:


> What exactly will that be , sounds vaguely like a threat




hehe oh lord! Triggered you are. You are the one calling half the country stupid. Exactly why you are out of touch.


----------



## woodsdenis

Diffusor said:


> hehe oh lord! Triggered you are.


please explain rather than taking the lords name in vain. Trigger is a horse isn't it.You have lost me now


----------



## Diffusor

woodsdenis said:


> please explain rather than taking the lords name in vain.



I don't care about your lord. I am an atheist.


----------



## woodsdenis

Diffusor said:


> I don't care about your lord. I am an atheist.


Good for you, you still haven't told me what I will get ? Still waiting.......


----------



## woodsdenis

Maybe some Trump steaks or Trump water or a place in the Trump University maybe, I mean he did accomplish 4 bankruptcies, I suppose thats something to be proud of.


----------



## Diffusor

woodsdenis said:


> Good for you, you still haven't told me what I will get ? Still waiting.......




You will get not only 4 years of Trump but 8 or more.


----------



## Diffusor

woodsdenis said:


> Maybe some Trump steaks or Trump water or a place in the Trump University maybe




Weak..... Remember none of that worked in the election. You think its going to work now? lol


----------



## NYC Composer

Diffusor said:


> I am reaching out to you civilly. You are just not liking what I am saying.


You are incorrect. I don't like your presentation. You started out ok, then went into crowing mode, the sort of thing that never be productive for civil discourse. The content of what you have to say can be a matter of debate. I have been perfectly willing to debate you and agree with you where I agree, so don't patronize me.


----------



## woodsdenis

Diffusor said:


> Weak..... Remember none of that worked in the election. You think its going to work now? lol


Which brings me back to my first point about stupid people voting for him, night all....


----------



## Diffusor

NYC Composer said:


> You are incorrect. I don't like your presentation. You started out ok, then went into crowing mode, the sort of thing that never be productive for civil discourse. The content of what you have to say can be a matter of debate. I have been perfectly willing to debate you and agree with you where I agree, so don't patronize me.




Nope. Don't agree. What I said is the truth. A stark reality. You just can't accept it. The right owns the Senate, the House and the Presidency. And will soon ensure a "constitutional" Supreme Court for the next 50 years. That's the total truth right? What's uncivil about admitting that?!?! Elections have consequences and your team lost. I don't understand the controversy here.


----------



## Diffusor

woodsdenis said:


> Which brings me back to my first point about stupid people voting for him, night all....




oh okay. Insults. It isn't like we haven't endured those this whole election season. Give me more sir.... Throw in racist, sexist and xenophobic to round it out. thanks


----------



## Sebastianmu

You guys are killing me.


----------



## woodsdenis

Diffusor said:


> oh okay. Insults. It isn't like we haven't endured those this whole election season. Give me more sir.... Throw in racist, sexist and xenophobic to round it out. thanks


Nah its too easy, just be yourself and let others make up their mind.Your doing a stellar job showing the caring side of a normal Trump supporter , go unleash your message to the masses and be proud.


----------



## Diffusor

Sebastianmu said:


> You guys are killing me.




Well it's like me against everyone. But I am enjoying this. Echo chamber indeed.


----------



## Diffusor

woodsdenis said:


> Nah its too easy, just be yourself and let others make up their mind.Your doing a stellar job showing the caring side of a normal Trump supporter , go unleash your message to the masses and be proud.




You are the one calling half the US stupid right? And I am the one who is not caring and understanding? lol Give me a break. You are the intolerant and anti-free speech maven.


----------



## Hannes_F

Every echo chamber needs a diffusor


----------



## NYC Composer

Diffusor said:


> Nope. Don't agree. What I said is the truth. A stark reality. You just can't accept it. The right owns the Senate, the House and the Presidency. And will soon ensure a "constitutional" Supreme Court for the next 50 years. That's the total truth right? What's uncivil about admitting that?!?! Elections have consequences and your team lost. I don't understand the controversy here.


I don't accept your tone. It is bellicose. If it continues, disappointingly, we will be done, and it will have nothing to do with content. I understand very well who won and who lost this election.


----------



## Diffusor

Hannes_F said:


> Every echo chamber needs a diffusor




haha Awesome Hannes


----------



## Diffusor

NYC Composer said:


> I don't accept your tone. It is bellicose. If it continues, disappointingly, we will be done, and it will have nothing to do with content. I understand very well who won and who lost this election.




I don't understand. What exactly have I said that is bad? I am the one being attacked from all sides right? I understand you guys aren't used to someone vigorously pushing back, if that's bellicose then I will own it.


----------



## woodsdenis

Diffusor said:


> You are the one calling half the US stupid right? And I am the one who is not caring and understanding? lol Give me a break. You are the intolerant and anti-free speech maven.


Well if you could do math it isn't half of the US, its less than half of who voted. But who cares with the figures and facts.
Whats a maven ?


----------



## Diffusor

woodsdenis said:


> Well if you could do math it isn't half of the US, its less than half of who voted. But who cares with the figures and facts.
> Whats a maven ?



oh another person that doesn't understand why the Founders implemented the electoral college. You are one of those "popular" vote mob rule guys. This is a Republic. Not a Democracy.


Maven. Look it up. You are smarter than the Donald right?


----------



## woodsdenis

Diffusor said:


> Not a Democracy.



Well that explains it, please tell me what a maven is, I thought we were getting along so well, you being the kind sensitive type and all.

https://maven.apache.org/what-is-maven.html

This maybe ? You scoundrel saying you are an atheist .


----------



## Quasar

NYC Composer said:


> "They got a name for the winners in the world, and I want a name when I lose
> They call Alabama the Crimson Tide-call me Deacon Blues."
> 
> Steely Dan, Deacon Blues
> 
> 
> For those gloaters (yes, I'm looking at you, Adrian) who thought I was going to run and hide due to the results of this election, ummm...er...well...no. I've always thought gloating was a good and true test of character-thank you for being so delightfully consistent! For the record, I made my last post in 'The Year of Trump" before the results came in, and I said it would be my last post. I too am consistent.
> 
> Donald J. Trump, that odious toad, is now President of these here United States, and that's the way it is. I can only hope he grows in the office, that he's a better man than he has shown himself to be. I'm not going to go into any "the election was rigged!" nonsense the way he surely would have had he lost. Nativism has been given a mandate in America for now.
> 
> I have lived through Nixon, Reagan and a pair of Bushes. 8 years of G.W. Bush, 8 years of Obama-this country sure is a mass of contradictions.
> 
> Apparently, a lot of people are protesting in New York right now. My question is this: protesting what? The election seemed clear enough to me. Trumpism in general? Well, yes, I hate that, but I'm going to reserve my protesting for specifics. March on Washington against mass deportations? I'll be there. Protesting down at the giant wall? I'll be there. Educating myself in how to help families from being deported? Yep.
> 
> This is certainly a teaching moment for those who have held the same liberal assumptions that I hold dear, but I hate the country's choice. I will be figuring out my personal way forward, and I invite you to join me in finding yours. Gloat, moan, be conservative, liberal, opine, whatever. Try to speak civilly. Hate may feel good temporarily, but it rots the soul. Just look at the Baron!
> 
> Btw, is it just me, or is no one ever going to believe a pollster again?
> 
> I refuse to give in to cynicism or despair.


----------



## Diffusor

woodsdenis said:


> Well that explains it, please tell me what a maven is, I thought we were getting along so well, you being the kind sensitive type and all.
> 
> https://maven.apache.org/what-is-maven.html
> 
> This maybe ? You scoundrel saying you are an atheist .




I have no idea what you are going on about here.


----------



## Diffusor

woodsdenis said:


> Well that explains it,



So you really think the US is a "democracy"? That does explain a lot.


----------



## woodsdenis

Diffusor said:


> I have no idea what you are going about here.


Theres the problem, you have to be smarter than Donald to understand it, which brings me back to my first point yet again.


----------



## Diffusor

woodsdenis said:


> Theres the problem, you have to be smarter than Donald to understand it, which brings me back to my first point yet again.




haha good work man! You got me. If I cared about feelings that would hurt!


----------



## chimuelo

Soundhound said:


> So... single payer?



In a sense.

Provide for those in need, leave the rest of us alone since we have already paid into other systems.
To drag everyone else into the Faculty Lounge wisdom of Jonathan Gruber is why intellectuals are not highly regarded, except if you're in make believe land at some Predator Loan institution/University...

Trying to stay on topic.

FWIW our Unions have worked this out long ago, not the Liberal/Federal/Lois Lerner Unions, real Unions, Police Fire Fighters Tradesmen, folks who actually work for a living....


----------



## Diffusor

chimuelo said:


> In a sense.
> 
> Provide for those in need, leave the rest of us alone since we have already paid into other systems.
> To drag everyone else into the Faculty Lounge wisdom of Jonathan Gruber is why intellectuals are not highly regarded, except if you're in make believe land at some Predator Loan institution/University...
> 
> Trying to stay on topic.
> 
> FWIW our Unions have worked this out long ago, not the Liberal/Federal/Lois Lerner Unions, real Unions, Police Fire Fighters Tradesmen, folks who actually work for a living....




Exactly. Why not just expand Medicaid, for example, to everyone that falls between the cracks. Eliminate state borders for competition. Tort reform. Lot's of stuff you can do without destroying the whole system for everyone like they have done.


----------



## Whatisvalis

The guy is a disgrace. Depending on how extreme his appointments are will determine the extent of the ideological war on our laws, environment, and freedom. America is not a white, one vision country - it's a melting pot of colors, religions, and personal freedoms, and those should be respected. 

Trump exploited many dark notions in a grotesque way and promised unfulfillable solutions. The political class needed a message, but that doesn't excuse ignoring such a detestable platform. Can voters not see they've extinguished the checks and balances and given a mandate to the extreme wing of the party that caused most of these issues in the first place?

Now is the time to organize fully, to create an opposition platform free of corporate interest and old political influences. Washington needed a cataclysmic event, I just hope we all can live the way we choose without fear the next 4 years, and then continue to build a better for future for all. 

The Voices Trump emboldens
https://twitter.com/i/moments/796417517157830656


----------



## Soundhound

It's awful. I am glad this thread is here. How DO we deal with the hate Trump has unleashed? What IS the way forward?


----------



## Diffusor

Soundhound said:


> It's awful. I am glad this thread is here. How DO we deal with the hate Trump has unleashed? What IS the way forward?




haha You guys are really clueless.


----------



## chimuelo

Diffusor said:


> Exactly. Why not just expand Medicaid, for example, to everyone that falls between the cracks. Eliminate state borders for competition. Tort reform. Lot's of stuff you can do without destroying the whole system for everyone like they have done.



ACA was designed to be litigated and HRC was selected to expand this onto oblivion.
Didn't work, and the people said that's enough lies, enough additional costs, and we know when there's no competition how things work out.
Liberals have really dissed their own voters by selecting the wrong candidate for them.

Now Donald Trump and the GOP can ride in on the White Horse.
Sure DJT is a prick, he's mean, and says things that hurt peoples feelings.

But thanks to stupidity of our "inellectuals" he will be the guy to straighten this out.

These Liberals and Conservatives are morons, they could fuck up a steel ball.


----------



## Quasar

While I agree with you (OP) that it doesn't make much sense to protest an election result rather than a specific policy decision by those in power, I do believe that there are factors involved in this ghastly outcome that can and should be scrutinized and criticized, especially:

1)The role played by the DNC, the Debbie Wasserman Schultz-types in sabotaging the campaign of an authentic progressive in order to advance the face of Goldman Sachs in the form of HRC. The Democrats long ago sold-out their claim to be the party of ordinary working people, and the anger of the swing state rust belt voters against the status quo is amply justified, albeit tragically misplaced by turning to the GOP and Trump.

2) The role of the centralized, corporatized mass media which, despite actually displaying (for a change) some of the "liberal bias" they are so often nonsensically accused of, provided Trump with an estimated three _billion_ dollars worth of free campaign publicity by jumping on the commercial bandwagon of his dubious celebrity status and virtual 100% name recognition. That much of this publicity was critical is of no consequence, because the reactionary vote was a giant "fuck you" statement against the perceived elitist and corrupt Establishment anyway. So the more criticism he got, whether from so-called "prominent civic leaders" or establishment media "pundits" the more galvanized the pro-Trump reaction only became.

Because of the skewed asymmetrical power relationships that currently exist between plutocratic special interests and traditional civic institutions, the US has already been well-on-the-way down the fascist rabbit hole before this election cycle, and I don't know if this will cause the descent to become total and seal the deal. But I do think that there is a non-negligible chance that this is exactly what will happen. It's trippy to watch and more than a little scary to live in.

Re polls: They got much better after the 1948 Truman-Dewey embarrassment, but for all of their sophisticated demographic analysis tools, they have not caught up to the Information Age reality that millions of people don't have landline phones and cannot be reliably reached by 20th century methods. They also underestimated the extent to which voters see the pollsters themselves as part of the corrupt establishment, and thus would give less than forthcoming responses to questions when surveyed.


----------



## NYC Composer

Diffusor said:


> haha You guys are really clueless.


Yep, there it is precisely. There is the heart of reasoned, civil debate.


----------



## Diffusor

NYC Composer said:


> Yep, there it is precisely. There is the heart of reasoned, civil debate.




You are being biased. Soundhound still hasn't answered my question and is still repeating the same old tired "racist" diatribe that didn't even work in the general election and still doesn't understand why Trump really won. I would call that clueless sorry.


----------



## NYC Composer

@Tugboat-some very good points, and this entire election will require a lot of scrutiny. However, I am more interested in the way forward. Cheers.


----------



## Diffusor

chimuelo said:


> ACA was designed to be litigated and HRC was selected to expand this onto oblivion.
> Didn't work, and the people said that's enough lies, enough additional costs, and we know when there's no competition how things work out.
> Liberals have really dissed their own voters by selecting the wrong candidate for them.
> 
> Now Donald Trump and the GOP can ride in on the White Horse.
> Sure DJT is a prick, he's mean, and says things that hurt peoples feelings.
> 
> But thanks to stupidity of our "inellectuals" he will be the guy to straighten this out.
> 
> These Liberals and Conservatives are morons, they could fuck up a steel ball.




Yup.


----------



## Diffusor

Tugboat said:


> While I agree with you (OP) that it doesn't make much sense to protest an election result rather than a specific policy decision by those in power, I do believe that there are factors involved in this ghastly outcome that can and should be scrutinized and criticized, especially:
> 
> 1)The role played by the DNC, the Debbie Wasserman Schultz-types in sabotaging the campaign of an authentic progressive in order to advance the face of Goldman Sachs in the form of HRC. The Democrats long ago sold-out their claim to be the party of ordinary working people, and the anger of the swing state rust belt voters against the status quo is amply justified, albeit tragically misplaced by turning to the GOP and Trump.
> 
> 2) The role of the centralized, corporatized mass media which, despite actually displaying (for a change) some of the "liberal bias" they are so often nonsensically accused of, provided Trump with an estimated three _billion_ dollars worth of free campaign publicity by jumping on the commercial bandwagon of his dubious celebrity status and virtual 100% name recognition. That much of this publicity was critical is of no consequence, because the reactionary vote was a giant "fuck you" statement against the perceived elitist and corrupt Establishment anyway. So the more criticism he got, whether from so-called "prominent civic leaders" or establishment media "pundits" the more galvanized the pro-Trump reaction only became.
> 
> Because of the skewed asymmetrical power relationships that currently exist between plutocratic special interests and traditional civic institutions, the US has already been well-on-the-way down the fascist rabbit hole before this election cycle, and I don't know if this will cause the descent to become total and seal the deal. But I do think that there is a non-negligible chance that this is exactly what will happen. It's trippy to watch and more than a little scary to live in.
> 
> Re polls: They got much better after the 1948 Truman-Dewey embarrassment, but for all of their sophisticated demographic analysis tools, they have not caught up to the Information Age reality that millions of people don't have landline phones and cannot be reliably reached by 20th century methods. They also underestimated the extent to which voters see the pollsters themselves as part of the corrupt establishment, and thus would give less than forthcoming responses to questions when surveyed.




Excellent insight there.


----------



## Soundhound

I answered your question, and when you again misrepresented what i said, again asked you to cut and paste it. Which you didn't do. You're apparently not interested in real discussion. 




Diffusor said:


> You are being biased. Soundhound still hasn't answered my question and is still repeating the same old tired "racist" diatribe that didn't even work in the general election and still doesn't understand why Trump really won. I would call that clueless sorry.


----------



## NYC Composer

Diffusor said:


> You are being biased. Soundhound still hasn't answered my question and is still repeating the same old tired "racist" diatribe that didn't even work in the general election and still doesn't understand why Trump really won. I would call that clueless sorry.


I have called out Soundhound, something I very much doubt YOU would do with someone you generally agreed with. So much for your accusation.

You're becoming a distraction, as your main interest seems to lie in the celebration of your personal rectitude rather than reasoned debate. I have answered every one of your points. I have, in a fair request, asked you for civility. Sorry,, "you guys are clueless" isn't civil. If you can't maintain a little equanimity, I'll just start ignoring you. Your call.


----------



## Soundhound

Obama was at a loss about what to do about a balkanized media that creates echo chambers. Fact checking used to be a big part of any news organization. Maybe some kind of disclosure about that? The New Yorker was always famous for its fact checking, pieces regularly didn't go out when a single instance was still in question in a 20 page piece.



NYC Composer said:


> @Tugboat-some very good points, and this entire election will require a lot of scrutiny. However, I am more interested in the way forward. Cheers.


----------



## Diffusor

Soundhound said:


> I answered your question, and when you again misrepresented what i said, again asked you to cut and paste it. Which you didn't do. You're apparently not interested in real discussion.




lol I did cut and paste. You conveniently chose to ignore it. But I will paste it yet again below. This was your comment I was responding to. After this you started back pedaling when I called you on it.

"Larry I agree but only to a point. People don't generally cry at elections. Not like this. People are frightened because someone who espoused hate and intolerance is going to be in control of the country. Maybe it was all a game and he only used it to get elected. I hope that's true, but my suspicion is that it's only partly true.

The dems lost their way by buckling under to the pressure and tactics of the far right. From Reagan on. I marched in the streets when I was a kid, but I did it because my parents did it and took me along. This is the first time I've felt like doing it in my adult life. Sweeping hate and intolerance under the rug is a leap too far for me. Call a spade a spade. This is a shameful episode in our history and I don't think making believe it didn't happen is a constructive way forward.

If you voted for Donald Trump, you are ok with racist talk. Does that make you a racist? It does in my book."


----------



## Quasar

NYC Composer said:


> @Tugboat-some very good points, and this entire election will require a lot of scrutiny. However, I am more interested in the way forward. Cheers.



Fair enough NYC. But coming to a lucid understanding of how and why this catastrophe occurred _is_ the first step forward.


----------



## Diffusor

NYC Composer said:


> I have called out Soundhound, something I very much doubt YOU would do with someone you generally agreed with. So much for your accusation.
> 
> You're becoming a distraction, as your main interest seems to lie in the celebration of your personal rectitude rather than reasoned debate. I have answered every one of your points. I have, in a fair request, asked you for civility. Sorry,, "you guys are clueless" isn't civil. If you can't maintain a little equanimity, I'll just start ignoring you. Your call.




Well you called him out yet he still hasn't answered the question I repeatedly asked and he is being totally dishonest and still continuing with the "racist" narrative. How can you expect me to respect this dialogue when it's not a fair exchange. Thus I think he is clueless, perhaps purposely so. For the record I didn't mean "you" were clueless when I original said that. Soundhound basically said in his original statement I was a racist (and half the country for that matter) because I voted for Trump. I take great offense to that. There's no common ground for discussion there.


----------



## NYC Composer

chimuelo said:


> ACA was designed to be litigated and HRC was selected to expand this onto oblivion.
> Didn't work, and the people said that's enough lies, enough additional costs, and we know when there's no competition how things work out.
> Liberals have really dissed their own voters by selecting the wrong candidate for them.
> 
> Now Donald Trump and the GOP can ride in on the White Horse.
> Sure DJT is a prick, he's mean, and says things that hurt peoples feelings.
> 
> But thanks to stupidity of our "inellectuals" he will be the guy to straighten this out.
> 
> These Liberals and Conservatives are morons, they could fuck up a steel ball.


Well Jimmy, now you have your revolution, sorta, cause Trump sure ain't no Republican-however, Congress is and so are most of his familiars. They did such a good job for working folk economically last time (2000-2008) why not trust them to do the same again.


----------



## NYC Composer

Diffusor said:


> Well you called him out yet he still hasn't answered the question I repeatedly asked and is being dishonest and still continuing with the "racist" narrative. How can you expect me to respect this dialogue when it's not a fair exchange. Thus I think he is clueless, perhaps purposely so. For the record I didn't mean "you" were clueless when I original said that.


Here are two statements:

1. "I disagree and here's why"
2. "Stick it up your pie hole you ignorant fucktard. You are clueless."

In the world I like to create around me, only one of those statements is civil. The fact that it's a hyperbolic example is really just a question of degree.

I want to have an intelligent and civil conversation with people I both agree and disagree with. If you can do that, please stay and debate. If you can't, please fuck off.

Thank you.


----------



## NYC Composer

Diffusor said:


> Well you called him out yet he still hasn't answered the question I repeatedly asked and he is being totally dishonest and still continuing with the "racist" narrative. How can you expect me to respect this dialogue when it's not a fair exchange. Thus I think he is clueless, perhaps purposely so. For the record I didn't mean "you" were clueless when I original said that. Soundhound basically said in his original statement I was a racist because I voted for Trump. I take great offense to that.


I don't agree with calling everyone who voted for Trump automatically racist either, as there are a lot of reasons here. I would like generalizations of that nature to be removed as well, Hound. That there were racist elements in his message is inarguable and quotable. That everyone voted purely along racial lines isn't logical, and I can see how it would be offensive.

Look, this isn't going to be ANY sort of echo chamber if I can help it. I would like this to be a civil discussion with vast disagreement-something that is sorely lacking in America.


----------



## Diffusor

NYC Composer said:


> Here are two statements:
> 
> 1. "I disagree and here's why"
> 2. "Stick it up your pie hole you ignorant fucktard. You are clueless."
> 
> In the world I like to create around me, only one of those statements is civil. The fact that it's a hyperbolic example is really just a question of degree.
> 
> I want to have an intelligent and civil conversation with people I both agree and disagree with. If you can do that, please stay and debate. If you can't, please fuck off.
> 
> Thank you.




lol I have been disagreeing and telling you why this whole time. And I never said "Stick it up your pie hole you ignorant fucktard." Exaggerate much? I have been civil this whole time until someone escalated it with me.


----------



## Diffusor

NYC Composer said:


> I don't agree with calling everyone who voted for Trump automatically racist either, as there are a lot of reasons here. I would like generalizations of that nature to be removed as well, Hound. That there were racist elements in his message is inarguable and quotable. That everyone voted purely along racial lines isn't logical.




thank you! All I ask for is fair treatment.


----------



## NYC Composer

And all I ask for is deliberate civility.


----------



## Diffusor

NYC Composer said:


> And all I ask for is deliberate civility.




Agreed. And if I am being uncivil please feel free to highlight when I do, and when others do as well. We will be cool then.


----------



## NYC Composer

Outstanding. 

Btw, about exaggeration, you did read that I was offering a hyperbolic illustrative example, right?


----------



## Soundhound

I said very specifically there, that Trump used racist dog whistles to appeal to that segment of the population who would hear it and respond positively to it. The other people who voted for him who don't think of themselves as racist, are ok with someone as president who caters to racists. That to me is incredibly dangerous.

And yes, I think responsibility has to be taken, if you voted for Donald Trump fully aware that his message was couched in racist terms, then you are agreeing with that point of view. Many, many people voted for him, many more than I thought existed. I do remember Michael Moore saying he thought Trump could win months ago, and I've been worried about the election ever since. It's a sad day for this country.

What don't you understand about that?

If you deny that Trump used racist talk in his campaign, then there is nothing we can discuss.




Diffusor said:


> lol I did cut and paste. You conveniently chose to ignore it. But I will paste it yet again below. This was your comment I was responding to. After this you started back pedaling when I called you on it.
> 
> "Larry I agree but only to a point. People don't generally cry at elections. Not like this. People are frightened because someone who espoused hate and intolerance is going to be in control of the country. Maybe it was all a game and he only used it to get elected. I hope that's true, but my suspicion is that it's only partly true.
> 
> The dems lost their way by buckling under to the pressure and tactics of the far right. From Reagan on. I marched in the streets when I was a kid, but I did it because my parents did it and took me along. This is the first time I've felt like doing it in my adult life. Sweeping hate and intolerance under the rug is a leap too far for me. Call a spade a spade. This is a shameful episode in our history and I don't think making believe it didn't happen is a constructive way forward.
> 
> If you voted for Donald Trump, you are ok with racist talk. Does that make you a racist? It does in my book."


----------



## Red

Soundhound said:


> It's a sad day for this country



Sad day for you. Happy day for the other half.

Let's be adults here.

In my personal opinion, this clip is a good explanation of the Trump voters and their emotions.


As an 'immigrant', when I first came here I was quite disgusted by the snobbery of coast states toward middle America.


----------



## Diffusor

Soundhound said:


> I said very specifically there, that Trump used racist dog whistles to appeal to that segment of the population who would hear it and respond positively to it. The other people who voted for him who don't think of themselves as racist, are ok with someone as president who caters to racists. That to me is incredibly dangerous.
> 
> And yes, I think responsibility has to be taken, if you voted for Donald Trump fully aware that his message was couched in racist terms, then you are agreeing with that point of view. Many, many people voted for him, many more than I thought existed. I do remember Michael Moore saying he thought Trump could win months ago, and I've been worried about the election ever since. It's a sad day for this country.
> 
> What don't you understand about that?
> 
> If you deny that Trump used racist talk in his campaign, then there is nothing we can discuss.





lol! You still won't answer the question and thusly still don't understand why Trump won. Yes, there is nothing left to talk about with you. You are a sycophant.


----------



## Diffusor

NYC Composer said:


> Outstanding.
> 
> Btw, about exaggeration, you did read that I was offering a hyperbolic illustrative example, right?




Yes of course.


----------



## Soundhound

Ok Larry. I've been patient with the ignorant frat boy to this point. What say ye?



Diffusor said:


> lol! You still won't answer the question and thusly still don't understand why Trump won. Yes, there is nothing left to talk about with you. You are a sycophant.


----------



## chimuelo

Pipeline will finish the final link in first 6 months.

Liberal/Billionaire Oil Transporter Warren Buffet won't be spilling Oil all over Montana anymore.
Union Tradesmen will get to work again instead of being sidelined by wealthy Liberal investments.

NEXT.....


----------



## Diffusor

Red said:


> Sad day for you. Happy day for the other half.
> 
> Let's be adults here.
> 
> In my personal opinion, this clip is a good explanation of the Trump voters and their emotions.
> 
> 
> As an 'immigrant', when I first came here I was quite disgusted by the snobbery of coast states toward middle America.





Yup. Excellent clip.


----------



## NYC Composer

Soundhound said:


> Ok Larry. I've been patient with the ignorant frat boy to this point. What say ye?


I say I love ya, but if you're gonna call people names, you're no good for my premise, and further, dont get why you won't answer his question about the Rust Belt states.


----------



## NYC Composer

Diffusor said:


> lol! You still won't answer the question and thusly still don't understand why Trump won. Yes, there is nothing left to talk about with you. You are a sycophant.


And that's name calling and not civil, so what? I have to call you out every 5 minutes?


----------



## Diffusor

Soundhound said:


> Ok Larry. I've been patient with the ignorant frat boy to this point. What say ye?




haha frat boy? You are so out of touch. I have a masters degree in the fine arts. I make my living in the commercial arts and have my own business. Never was in a frat sorry. I have my own music studio and write music semi-professionally. I know you have a stereotypical perception of a typical Trump supporter but that's where you are not getting it. I am highly educated and am a creative artist and I voted for Trump. That's not your narrative. Trump wasn't really my guy at all. I am more of a social libertarian. Ron Paul and Rand Paul were my guys. Trump was the next best thing but I will take him over corrupt Hillary Clinton anyday.

I assume this "Larry" reference is that you are asking a mod or something to ban me? Knock yourself out friend. Being banned would be okay for me.


----------



## NYC Composer

chimuelo said:


> Pipeline will finish the final link in first 6 months.
> 
> Liberal/Billionaire Oil Transporter Warren Buffet won't be spilling Oil all over Montana anymore.
> Union Tradesmen will get to work again instead of being sidelined by wealthy Liberal investments.
> 
> NEXT.....


Thank GAWD pipelines don't leak. That liberal Rich Kinder would never spill a drop.


----------



## Soundhound

I did! About four hundred times. He just doesn't want to hear it. Trump won the rust belt states because of his economic message (which I think is pie in the sky bullshit, and people will be furious when they realize it) but he also used xenophobia and racism to get the ears of many in the region. How many times do I have to say it?

Aside for ignorant frat boy, which I did after he's been calling names for several pages, when did I previously do that in this thread?



NYC Composer said:


> I say I love ya, but if you're gonna call people names, you're no good for my premise, and further, dont get why you won't answer his question about the Rust Belt states.


----------



## Diffusor

NYC Composer said:


> And that's name calling and not civil, so what? I have to call you out every 5 minutes?




Sorry, the guy is calling me a racist so I respond in kind.


----------



## Diffusor

Soundhound said:


> I did! About four hundred times. He just doesn't want to hear it. Trump won the rust belt states because of his economic message (which I think is pie in the sky bullshit, and people will be furious when they realize it) but he also used xenophobia and racism to get the ears of many in the region. How many times do I have to say it?
> 
> Aside for ignorant frat boy, which I did after he's been calling names for several pages, when did I previously do that in this thread?




Nope. You are saying Trump won because he appealed to racists. Undeniable. Trump won because he took the blue rust belt states because he appealed to disenfranchised blue collar workers. Undeniable.

Anyways, I gotta go dudes. Later....


----------



## NYC Composer

Ok, that's it for me. I'm not responding to any more mudslinging posts. From here on, I'm responding only to on topic posts about The Way Forward or critical, civil analysis of how we got here as part of that. Duke it out if you must, gents.


----------



## Soundhound

No it was out of respect for Larry who started this thread in search of measured, reasoned discussion on how to move forward after this election that so many people find very upsetting. (Larry let me know if I'm misrepresenting here).

You seem in no way interested in such a thread. I'm sorry you're here. Ignorant frat boy was a euphemism, einstein. I wouldn't ask anyone to ban anyone else, that's for Trump supporters, from what I've seen.

And as far as the libertarian thing, it's preposterous. Nonsense, pop political ideology bereft of serious thought.





Diffusor said:


> haha frat boy? You are so out of touch. I have a masters degree in the fine arts. I make my living in the commercial arts and have my own business. Never was in a frat sorry. I have my own music studio and write music semi-professionally. I know you have a stereotypical perception of a typical Trump supporter but that's where you are not getting it. I am highly educated and am a creative artist and I voted for Trump. That's not your narrative. Trump wasn't really my guy at all. I am more of a social libertarian. Ron Paul and Rand Paul were my guys. Trump was the next best thing but I will take him over corrupt Hillary Clinton anyday.
> 
> I assume this "Larry" reference is that you are asking a mod or something to ban me? Knock yourself out friend. Being banned would be okay for me.


----------



## Soundhound

Talking to someone on the right is hitting your head against a brick wall. Only it's less productive. 



Diffusor said:


> Nope. You are saying Trump won because he appealed to racists. Undeniable. Trump won because he took the blue rust belt states because he appealed to disenfranchised blue collar workers. Undeniable.
> 
> Anyways, I gotta go dudes. Later....


----------



## chimuelo

Them Damn lying Liberals...

Weren't they suppose to move to Canada?
Bad enough I gotta hear Trump for 4 years.
But Twitter and YouTube are packed with webcams of crying singers and movie stars.
4 years of that is a nightmare...


----------



## NYC Composer

Yeah, must be awful for you.

So Jimmy, how's Trump gonna bring our jobs back? Have you read through his comprehensive plan? Tariffs, trade wars, tearing up signed deals and re-negotiating? How's it gonna work?

When he repeals Dodd-Frank, what happens when the investment banks start to have a little fun and it goes bad again? More bailouts?

After there are a few thousand more earthquakes due to increased fracking and the new energy czar Sarah Palin shrieks "Drill more, baby, drill more!!" 
do you think Oklahoma will finally start putting in basements and shelters?

When Attorrney General Christie is indicted by...oh, never mind.

Back to jobs. How is le Grand Orange gonna do the jobs thing? I don't think you answered me the last time.


----------



## chimuelo

Who do I look like?...Nostradumbass...?
How would I know what hes going to do?

Willing to see what a business mogul wants to try.
Hes not for sale so thats an advantage.

Would like Soros to rebuild the neighborhoods him Holder and Sharpton burned down, then get sued by dead Dallas Cops families.

Pardon Hillary on the condition endowments be spent on the children of America she loves and cares for.
I have a feeling the Foundation wont be seeing many investors now.
Theres nothing in it for them.
So much for saving the children.

Medicaid for every American and for illegal immigrants with families and no violent felonies immediate citizenhip.

Trump could give the GOP the claim to free health care and generations of the hispanic vote.

Thats the smart play.

But I havent been consulted yet.
Once chimuelo saves the nation Ill give you a heads up.


----------



## JonFairhurst

Diffusor? More like "noise generator." Or argument generator. The guy is a trolling waste of bits. Ignore him. 

Did you see how he treated Jay in the other thread? 

Life is precious. Our time is limited. Don't waste your time with those who bring out the worst in you.

Maybe if we all ignore him, this thread can bring humor, knowledge, and joy. His trolling does none of that.


----------



## dpasdernick

Just curious if Bernie's idea of being a socialist is everyone owning 3 houses, including a 600k lake house?


----------



## Michael K. Bain

dpasdernick said:


> Just curious if Bernie's idea of being a socialist is everyone owning 3 houses, including a 600k lake house?


Every bit as much as the Hollywood lefties' idea of gun control is everyone having armed bodyguards!


----------



## NYC Composer

Let's see.

The purchase of their vacation home (at 75 years old) was mostly funded by the sale of his wife's family vacation home. It is intended for his extended family. For the price, I'm sure it's nice. Mar-a-Lago? Well, I suppose if he added $100,000,000. maybe.

He owns a home in Washington (where he works) and in Burlington (where he works.)

He's a nationally known politician who can make as much money as he might want to through his fame. I'm a working musician who up til recently owned two residences in Manhattan. My wife and I earned the money to pay for them.I suspect he and his wife did as well over time. The bank still owns part of mine...probably true of them as well.
If you have $5,000 and a little income, you can buy a home in my hometown of Binghamton, New York.

What's your point?


----------



## NYC Composer

Michael K. Bain said:


> Every bit as much as the Hollywood lefties' idea of gun control is everyone having armed bodyguards!


Michael, I thought your post to Nick in the Trump thread was very kind. You're a good man.

On the other hand, bodyguards should have guns. Average guys don't need arsenals of multi-shot weapons in their homes unless they're planning armed insurrections, and criminals and terrorists shouldn't have them at all, which is why better gun control is simple logic.


----------



## NYC Composer

"Medicaid for every American and for illegal immigrants with families and no violent felonies immediate citizenhip."

Sell that to one conservative, I'll double the samples.


----------



## NYC Composer

JonFairhurst said:


> Diffusor? More like "noise generator." Or argument generator. The guy is a trolling waste of bits. Ignore him.
> 
> Did you see how he treated Jay in the other thread?
> 
> Life is precious. Our time is limited. Don't waste your time with those who bring out the worst in you.
> 
> Maybe if we all ignore him, this thread can bring humor, knowledge, and joy. His trolling does none of that.



You're a guy I truly respect, Jon, but I think the time is past for ignoring contrarian arguments even if they appear to us as anathema. This election would make the case, no?


----------



## chimuelo

NYC Composer said:


> "Medicaid for every American and for illegal immigrants with families and no violent felonies immediate citizenhip."
> Sell that to one conservative, I'll double the samples.



That one sells itself, if lifelong careers, super majority for 8 years and 20 year supreme court matters.
Those fuckers will sell thier mothers to get rid of thier competition.
Theyre too stupid to think outsude of the box.
Trump will teach them how business in the real world works.
Longevity is key.


----------



## NYC Composer

Can't wait to see it.


----------



## Baron Greuner

I think that Trump winning the Presidency is a made up Facebook story.

Hey. Great thread here. Watching some of you go into denial on a neclear level.

Popcorn. Chomp chomp chomp.


----------



## woodsdenis

Hey Baron how do feel about your special relationship now , Drumpf called the Irish pm hours before yours. That's gotta hurt. ☹️


----------



## NYC Composer

Hey, it's my friend the Baron! Can't wait to see your forward thinking. There's always a first time. I'm an optimist.


----------



## Baron Greuner

Denis there's no such thing and never has been, a 'special relationship' with the USA. It's a construct. It's not real. Incidentally, sudden thought, have you lot paid us back the 11 billion we lent you to bail you out of your EU mess?

What I'm interested in here, is the way that white Anglo Saxon Americans refused to be dictated to by ethnic minorities in this election. This is just another election btw. Nothing really special about it and there will be other elections.
This is why you have the failsafe of Electoral Colleges in the USA. If you didn't have that, every maniac that inhabits your most populated cities could dictate every election to white American voters that live rurally. The electoral college is a way of stopping civil war in the USA. So the fact that a bunch of city dwellers on benefits that probably can't speak English, had more votes for the Dems, is of little or no consequence whatsoever, because on actually learning to read and write English, they will soon come to realise that this is how USA elections work outside of a banana republic.
Very similar parallel in London with foreigners trying to turn over the Brexit vote.

Another problem that you have, not just in the USA, but around the world, is kids cannot seem to accept anything they don't like anymore. They seem to think the world owes them everything. That's going to be very hard learning curve for them very soon.

But what I find fascinating, is that the American people voted for their Nigel Farage and their Marine Le Pen. Whereas in England and France, they have not yet found the guts to do the same thing. But if the EU goes wrong again big time, they probably will.
A German reporter/commentator on Sky yesterday stated that Angela Merkel is now the leader of the free world post USA result. I found that an interesting, and at the same time, a slightly hysteria laden statement.

Does that mean that Angela will now protect us all? Does she have any nuclear weapons and submarines? Large navy, army, airforce? General run of the mill stuff like that which has always been a sort of unsaid pre-requisite of being the leader of the free world? May seem like a moot point, but if someone is about to blow your head clean off, it would be nice to know that the new leader of the free world may have something to say about that. Will she be able to persuade the 1 million 'immigrants' to go out and fight for us all if she is faced with a leader of the free world type situation at any time?
Do you know, I could be so wrong on this, but the next election in Germany next September might be even more interesting than the USA one.

I have to stop now because I have just climbed to the top of Mt Smug and the atmosphere is rarified atm.


----------



## chimuelo

Got a feeling Trump was taken to school by Obama.
He heard the real daily briefing and was probably saying she-it, I should have signed on the network deal.
He sat in the chair like he was humbled.
But then it was back to old Trump as the press released a shot of him grabbing a pussy.
It was a shot of him shaking Obamas hand....
Just messin whichyas.....

Ankyu


----------



## chimuelo

He called the Irish pm first as he has 2 months to set up a tax free business so asked the pm for Dr. Dre's number at the IEM factory.

Ankyu


----------



## JonFairhurst

NYC Composer said:


> You're a guy I truly respect, Jon, but I think the time is past for ignoring contrarian arguments even if they appear to us as anathema. This election would make the case, no?



The guy doesn't make points. He just trolls. 

He insults people. When they give some back, he plays victim and claims that they are the aggressors. Classic gas lighting.

He tells people which way to jump. When they don't, he complains. When they do, he moves the goal post and complains. 

It's all troll tactics, not honest discussion. You will find no truths playing his game. People like that just like setting fires while watching others jump.

I won't jump. He's not worth my time. I don't need that disease under my skin.

The guy is on my permanent ignore list.

Now, if anybody wants a constructive conversation on The Way Forward, I'm game.


----------



## woodsdenis

Resentment is no excuse for stupidity. Does any one really believe that those Midwest flipped states are going to be better off by trusting their economic future to a clown who couldn't even make a success of a casino in Atlantic city. Drumpf is by definition one of the coastal elites these guys despise and they voted for him. Doh ! The same thing for Brexit, dumb fools sold a lie by even bigger ones. Yes it is uneducated whites shouting Murica and Engurland who fuelled this nonsense, so some of us have to take responsibility for spawning these imbeciles, and worse, the ones filling the heads of those idiots with rubbish and simplistic remedies for problems way beyond their ability to fix.

Oh and how can the system be rigged if the candidate with the least amount of votes wins ? And yet Drumpf believes the electoral college is a disaster for democracy.


----------



## woodsdenis

oh Baron just in case your worried about your money , the final loan will be repaid with interest in March 2021 with a few of them a couple of years earlier.


----------



## Soundhound

Here's a helpful to do list with the morning coffee:

http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/michael-moore-anti-trump-do-list?akid=14867.2566519.xSfkdC&rd=1&src=newsletter1066971&t=8


----------



## chimuelo

[Edited by moderator]
You proud posts are parroted Liberal spu.
Try reading about who voted and why in documents instead of your favorite whiney Liberal headlines.


----------



## Soundhound

So much for civility. Am I to take this as an ever so subtle sign that the gloves are off? Put me in coach!




chimuelo said:


> [Edited]
> Try reading about who voted and why in documents instead of your favorite whiney Liberal headlines.


----------



## chimuelo

Are millions of hispanics purposely left out of your parroted findings.
Its middle class family members from every state and every major manufacturing area across the country.
Its over half of labor union members too who work for 7 bucks an hour less just to pray they can keep thirr family together.

[Edited by moderator]
Try being a failure as a father trying to work 2 jobs before you parrot more of your over educated nonsense.

Better yet go get involved in a riot and then you can at least said you did something other than insult people you only know from parroted lies.

[Edited by moderator]


----------



## Sebastianmu

Oh boys - why not just drop the personal attacks, really. It's freakin' annoying.


----------



## Baron Greuner

woodsdenis said:


> oh Baron just in case your worried about your money , the final loan will be repaid with interest in March 2021 with a few of them a couple of years earlier.



That's good to know. But for now I can't exchange any banter right now because I'm aloof on the summit of Mt Smug.


----------



## chimuelo

Personal attacks in vapor land are useless I apologize.

Id rather see weasals like that take the streets.
Then they can be filmed so I can cheer on cops spraying them.

I mean if you going to cry like a child dont pretend.
Do it because the pepper spray is a good assitant.


----------



## Soundhound

WTF JIMMY? When did you turn into Adrian? This doesn't sound like you. Apologize to Denis, goddamit. I wouldn't necessarily accept if I were him, but unless you're vying to be adopted into the Trump family...




chimuelo said:


> Are millions of hispanics purposely left out of your parroted findings.
> Its middle class family members from every state and every major manufacturing area across the country.
> Its over half of labor union members too who work for 7 bucks an hour less just to pray they can keep thirr family together.
> 
> [Edited by moderator]
> 
> Better yet go get involved in a riot and then you can at least said you did something other than insult people you only know from parroted lies.
> 
> [Edited by moderator]


----------



## Hannes_F

Speaking as a moderator:
Please everybody calm down with ad hominem attacks. Now. Thank you.


----------



## woodsdenis

Well the true Jimmy speaks, sad. [Edited by moderator]. Put me on your ignore list.


----------



## Hannes_F

Again, everybody please stop personalized attacks. Last warning before exit.


----------



## chimuelo

Sorry Hannes.
We both have better things to do.


----------



## woodsdenis

Sorry Hannes, well at least I got called over educated which is a plus I suppose.


----------



## ghostnote

The election sure is controversial, but the way this country goes down terrifies me. America seems to break up in two parts Instead of finding consense based on rationality - which is what it really needs right now more than ever. Liberals rioting and dammaging other peoples property is wrong, but Trump voters feeling free to express their hate against muslims, black people, women, gays is absolutely unacceptable.

I can understand that there has to be a cesura of somekind in order to be able to let the normal people benefit from globalisation, but not by electing somebody who uses populistic statements to get to power. In the end, Trump just used many of those statements to generate attention and I'm still convinced that Trump will moderate himself, he actually already did exactly that by kicking out many controversial points off his agenda. But the damage he did by implanting hate into the mindset of (way too) many americans by shouting these mantras over and over again is something that will sadly remain in those heads and maybe will even grow, we all know history...

The thing that bothers me tough is the political system where you just have two sides you can vote for. Something which works a bit different here in Germany. However a system in which somebody dooesn't get elected but gets the majority of votes is something completely irrational and should be reformed if you ask me. As an European I hope I'm not stepping on nerves here. I don't want to arrogate, excuse me if I already did.


----------



## Soundhound

The failed composer epithet should have been hurled at me. At least that would have shown decent aim. 

Here's my take. People are angry, a lot of people are frightened. If you grew up in NY and are not an Archie Bunker type, this feels like the apocalypse. Donald Trump has always been the poster boy for pure, unadulterated, ignorant id. And he now has his fingers on the nuclear codes. 

But I've been trying the last few days to, very seriously, think about how to deal with this. From my point of view a clearly unhinged and incapable man is the president of the united states. So do we hang out in our gardens and paint and compose for four years, or do we take to the streets. I'm planning on both. I'm handing in a job this afternoon. Assuming it's signed off on, there's a march in Atlanta this weekend and I'm going. There's nothing we can really do, he won the election. But just like during the war in Vietnam, now is the time to raise our voices. Back the democrats to block any radical right wing supreme court judges. Back progressives running for office. Do whatever you can. 

And if Trump reverts to his democratic roots and the radical right wingers in congress go after him, support him! If he refuses to destroy social security, send your support! If he proposes a massive infrastructure jobs program properly funded, cheer him on. Take this issue by issue, and don't take any sh*t from the part of the population that has taken the cue from his campaign that it's okay to be a bully, a racist, a misogynist, or a crowing right winger. 

And write some music too.


----------



## Michael K. Bain

NYC Composer said:


> Michael, I thought your post to Nick in the Trump thread was very kind. You're a good man.


Thanks, I was very sincere. I was very sad and felt hopeless after Obama was elected, especially the 2nd time, so I can understand some of his feeling, and I don't wish him to feel that way. And I truly think he's needlessly worried about the extreme things; I think Trump wont carry through with those because he's not the guy he pretended to be in order to appeal to the angry, racist, Jew-hating alt-right. I do believe he is an amoral bully and narcissist, which are the main reasons I don't want him as president.


----------



## woodsdenis

On a lighter note google wankpuffin and see what you get. I should really stop posting but getting to write that 33rd bar is a bitch I tell you.


----------



## Diffusor

JonFairhurst said:


> Diffusor? More like "noise generator." Or argument generator. The guy is a trolling waste of bits. Ignore him.
> 
> Did you see how he treated Jay in the other thread?
> 
> Life is precious. Our time is limited. Don't waste your time with those who bring out the worst in you.
> 
> Maybe if we all ignore him, this thread can bring humor, knowledge, and joy. His trolling does none of that.



Like I said, echo chamber here. Anybody with a non-leftist belief is basically driven out of this forum. I've seen it happen repeatedly over the years. Good luck with that. This is why you guys lost big this election. You don't really understand what is happening.


----------



## Michael K. Bain

Michael Chrostek said:


> The thing that bothers me tough is the political system where you just have two sides you can vote for. Something which works a bit different here in Germany.



One thing (of many) I realized in this election is that America will never truly give 3rd party a fighting chance. If any election ever screamed "3rd party!", it was this one.


----------



## Michael K. Bain

Diffusor said:


> Like I said, echo chamber here. Anybody with a non-leftist belief is basically driven out of this forum. I've seen it happen repeatedly over the years. Good luck with that. This is why you guys lost big this election. You don't really understand what is happening.


Didn't drive me out. Not that 3 or 4 didn't want that.


----------



## Diffusor

JonFairhurst said:


> The guy doesn't make points. He just trolls.
> 
> He insults people. When they give some back, he plays victim and claims that they are the aggressors. Classic gas lighting.
> 
> He tells people which way to jump. When they don't, he complains. When they do, he moves the goal post and complains.
> 
> It's all troll tactics, not honest discussion. You will find no truths playing his game. People like that just like setting fires while watching others jump.
> 
> I won't jump. He's not worth my time. I don't need that disease under my skin.
> 
> The guy is on my permanent ignore list.
> 
> Now, if anybody wants a constructive conversation on The Way Forward, I'm game.



Of course you say this as you can't objectively filter. Soundhound basically said I was a racist from the beginning and you wanna say it's all me doing the insulting. I was simply pushing back on that convenient racist "narrative" which I proceeded to prove over and over was untrue. Trump won the election because he took the blue rust belt states. That's trolling to you? That's fact, hard to swallow I realize. Trump also got less of the white vote and more black and hispanic votes than Romney in 2012. That doesn't jibe with Soundhound's racial narrative.

Anyway, I will leave you guys to it. I won't be back. Good luck.


----------



## ghostnote

Michael K. Bain said:


> One thing (of many) I realized in this election is that America will never truly give 3rd party a fighting chance. If any election ever screamed "3rd party!", it was this one.


Yeah, it's like stockholm syndrome, isn't it :D


----------



## Michael K. Bain

Diffusor said:


> Of course you say this as you can't objectively filter. Soundhound basically said I was a racist from the beginning and you wanna say it's all me doing the insulting.



I believe you, Diffusor. I have been the recipient of his insults and attacks many times.


----------



## Soundhound

An important thing to remember is that bullies are cowards. That's why they act the way they do. Cowards can't do much on internet forums, but in the white house they can do a lot.

Marching in Atlanta this weekend if anybody's in town!


----------



## Michael K. Bain

Michael Chrostek said:


> Yeah, it's like stockholm syndrome, isn't it :D


Yeah, and I think a whole lot of fear. Most people are voting not for someone they actually want as pres, but against someone they fear as pres. They don't think 3rd Party has a chance because enough people like them won't step out and do it. And they're right. But it will work if everyone who doesn't want these people would say "Successful or not, I've got to try!"


----------



## ghostnote

Michael K. Bain said:


> Yeah, and I think a whole lot of fear. Most people are voting not for someone they actually want as pres, but against someone they fear as pres. They don't think 3rd Party has a chance because enough people like them won't step out and do it. And they're right. But it will work if everyone who doesn't want these people would say "Successful or not, I've got to try!"


I think so, here in Germany we have the possibility to form coalitions between parties to get over the 50%. It ends up mostly between allied parties like Conservative (Merkel btw) and Liberals or Socialist and Green, but basically every constellation has chances if they come together and form a broad agreement. The american system tough eradicates the chance for a third party by not allowing coalitions. I have to admit: If I'd be eligible to vote in the US, I'd most probably vote for the party who has a chance to win against Trump. Jill Stein has good arguments, but sadly she seems not be suited for a presidency, neither I believe she would have a competent set of people behind her to form a credible cabinet. She's cute tough.


----------



## Michael K. Bain

Michael Chrostek said:


> I think so, here in Germany we have the possibility to form coalitions between parties to get over the 50%. It ends up mostly between allied parties like Conservative (Merkel btw) and Liberals or Socialist and Green, but basically every constellation has chances if they come together and form a broad agreement. The american system tough eradicates the chance for a third party by not allowing coalitions. I have to admit: If I'd be eligible to vote in the US, I'd most probably vote for the party who has a chance to win against Trump. Jill Stein has good arguments, but sadly she seems not be suited for a presidency, neither I believe she would have a competent set of people behind her to form a credible cabinet. She's cute tough.


Sounds good. There was something like a coalition started here this election, but it wasn't official and it was between individuals not organizations. It was more like a movement. I voted 3rd party, but I might've joined some centrist coalition this time around if I thought it would stop Trump and Hillary.


----------



## Soundhound

Thank goodness calling someone a murderer isn't an insult.



Michael K. Bain said:


> I believe you, Diffusor. I have been the recipient of his insults and attacks many times.


----------



## ghostnote

Michael K. Bain said:


> Sounds good. There was something like a coalition started here this election, but it wasn't official and it was between individuals not organizations. It was more like a movement. I voted 3rd party, but I might've joined some centrist coalition this time around if I thought it would stop Trump and Hillary.


Interesting, I did not know that. What I can't understand is that the country which is the head of the free world has still a system which is based on ideals and (IMO outdated) traditions instead of progression, liberty and at least a bit of a social note. I think the last one is the core point why Trump got elected. There won't be any socialism in the US, because the american dream stands for much more than that. Why settle for less than that?


----------



## Soundhound

This is exactly what I've been saying! The rest of the civilized world has moved to more advanced approaches over the last decades. But the U.S. has been in the thrall of a regressive movement for quite a while now, since Reagan. Strict constitutionalists, religious fundamentalists and the like have been moving the country ever backward. The fearful, protectionist, arrogant nativism that Trump represents is another giant step in that direction. 

The regression has been taking hold in other countries as well, Brexit, soon France... Isolationism, nationalism, this is how the world moves toward war. 



Michael Chrostek said:


> Interesting, I did not know that. What I can't understand is that the country which is the head of the free world has still a system which is based on ideals and (IMO outdated) traditions instead of progression, liberty and at least a bit of a social note. I think the last one is the core point why Trump got elected. There won't be any socialism in the US, because the american dream stands for much more than that. Why settle for less than that?


----------



## JonFairhurst

A viable 3rd party isn't sustainable in the US. If a 3rd party becomes truly competitive, it doesn't mean that we will have a sustainable 3rd choice. I would mean that one of the existing parties is dying.

In a parliamentary system, coalitions are form after the votes are in. In the US system, coalitions occur before the election. If the left splits, the Democratic Party dies. If the right splits, the Republican party dies.

It would be possible that a perfectly centered party could get votes from both sides. But it's hard to inspire people towards a middle position. If such a thing occurred, it would be unstable. The 3rd party would either vanish as a flash-in-the-pan, or, if successful, its attraction would drift right or left and it would consume its nearest neighbor.

One way that this could be fixed is to enact Instant Runoff Voting (IRV), where you can vote 3rd party with a backup vote. In this system, the candidate with the lowest vote total is crossed off the list and that candidate's 2nd option votes are redistributed to the remaining candidates. This continues (with 2nd, 3rd, 4th... options) as low candidates are eliminated - until somebody gets 50%+1 votes. This allows people to vote 3rd party without enabling their opposition.

With IRV, 3rd parties could target specific congressional districts and potentially gain seats. They could then have informal coalitions, issue by issue, with the predominant parties. That's not unlike Bernie Sander's coalition with the Democrats when he ran as an Independent. He generally voted with the Democrats, but not always.

But without widespread IRV, 3rd parties are a pipe dream. And if they go for the presidency without winning congressional seats, they aren't sustainable.


----------



## Baron Greuner

Diffusor said:


> Like I said, echo chamber here. Anybody with a non-leftist belief is basically driven out of this forum.



It's not the left wing or the right wing or ism or anything like that, that's the issue. Thank God for the left and right wings and even centrists during policy making and the greater scheme of things. None of that is an issue at all.

The issue, and what drives me mad, is unbalance. TV news channels for example. People actually taking to the streets because they don't like how a vote went. That is fucking immature kiddykins stuff in the extreme and they probably should be plugged into the nearest power supply. 

You lost. Someone needs to make children understand what 'you lost' means. In the USA for example, if you lost, you're fucked for at least the next 4 years. Live with it!


----------



## ghostnote

JonFairhurst said:


> A viable 3rd party isn't sustainable in the US. If a 3rd party becomes truly competitive, it doesn't mean that we will have a sustainable 3rd choice. I would mean that one of the existing parties is dying.


Nope, I think this system is truly just setup by fear and tradition. If there would be a credible 3rd party character with a similar portion of charisma and rationalism like Obama, there would be a chance to REALLY show the establishment what real government is. Trump will be just a marionette, tempered by the military industrial complex. He already is part of the system.



JonFairhurst said:


> One way that this could be fixed is to enact Instant Runoff Voting (IRV), where you can vote 3rd party with a backup vote.


In Germany you vote for 1.) the Cancellor and 2.) for a Party.



JonFairhurst said:


> But without widespread IRV, 3rd parties are a pipe dream. And if they go for the presidency without winning congressional seats, they aren't sustainable.


I agree, people are voting for the President, but forget to vote for the congress months after... it's ridiculous. Wonder why Obama's hair got so white during the last 8 years? Because of exactly that.


----------



## NYC Composer

Referring to your earlier post, Adrian, you finally said the magic word-"white". Well, actually you added Anglo-Saxon, but never mind. You've finally thrown off the careful shackles of political correctness. Those "ethnic minorities" that have been taking over "your country" have really been sticking in your craw, but now you are free to trumpet your nativism. It was a problem before, but our orange Prez has apparently emancipated you.You're trendy!

Hey, how do you feel about second generation English citizens of Indian heritage? Despite skin color, are they "white"? Is there a number of generations, a litmus test? Or is it only about skin color?

I know you wouldn't call yourself racist, because people who think of yourself in this way never do. How would you define yourself in that vein?

Oh, one more thing-Jews. Are English Jews white? They tend not to be Anglo Saxon, which is why I ask.


----------



## NYC Composer

Did you guys really go and name call and get disgusting while I slept? Seems Hannes was forced to be busy. Normally, that would really piss me off, but you guys are making me sad.


----------



## chimuelo

Girly men will disperse in due time.
Let them hit things that don't hit back

Micheal Moore will fight on until the last drop of thier blood.

Everybody has a great plan until they get punched in the face.


----------



## NYC Composer

I didn't start this thread so you could talk about whiners and girly men, Jim. Put your gigantic dick back in your drawers and speak to the issues, damnit. I value your adversarial presence and we can have some great convo, but not if you make the costs too high.


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## woodsdenis

NYC Composer said:


> Did you guys really go and name call and get disgusting while I slept? Seems Hannes was forced to be busy. Normally, that would really piss me off, but you guys are making me sad.


Someone was off their meds and accused me of only writing 32 bar pieces, I assure you they are mostly in the 64 bar range, so someone got so irate they were counting in double time or maybe they are in a polka band, that would explain it.


----------



## NYC Composer

Re third party-

Actually, I believe this was, in essence, a third party win. The Republicans didn't win it, the cult of Trump did. Political correctness be damned, he flew his nativist/fear flag high and a lot of people liked it.

I think we could see the Bernie Party (with a new candidate)making noise in 2020.


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## chimuelo

I did Larry.

Then I had to listen to a 500 dollar a night cover band, playing tracks from the B side of the album, in hopes people might think the music was original.

I already shared what a businessman might do to change how these 2 failed law firms operate.

We basically have a 3rd party take over of the 2 party system.
Golden opportunity.

Why not make things happen.
Tomorrow's Intelligence instead of yesterday's news.


----------



## NYC Composer

Then please quote yourself on that specific post, Jim


----------



## NYC Composer

woodsdenis said:


> Someone was off their meds and accused me of only writing 32 bar pieces, I assure you they are mostly in the 64 bar range, so someone got so irate they were counting in double time or maybe they are in a polka band, that would explain it.


I generally write in the studio these days, but I used to write in bars all the time. Mostly humming into my mini cassette recorder. Great days!


----------



## Baron Greuner

Larry it's very difficult to be anything but white if you're Anglo Saxon when you sit down and think about it.
Anyway, listen you poor dumb bastRds. What part of 'you lost' don't you understand?

Gen. S. Patton (deceased)

What I most like about Trump is he's vindictive. That I like.

Yours from

Mt. Smug


----------



## Soundhound

Like I said, bullies are cowards. They love to talk tough on the internet.


----------



## NYC Composer

Yes, Adrian, I didn't think you'd address my questions about your racial outlooks from your lofty Peak of Vindictiveness on Mt. Smug....but I think you already came out of the closet.

Actually when you think about it-though Jewish, my skin is white. Not Anglo nor Saxon. I can imagine it's not actual coloration that disturbs you-more like racial purity. Just a surmise from Mt. Disgusted. 

Btw, I haven't whined about the election results for a moment, so stick it in your ear.


----------



## Baron Greuner

You're Jewish???

Jesus H Christ Larry, I wish you'd told me sooner!


----------



## Baron Greuner

Haha! Actually one of my G grandfathers was a rabbi believe it or not.

Larry do you really want to talk about personal ethnicities or do you want to understand why people have voted the way they did and do?


----------



## NYC Composer

Adrian, do you want to make some fairly serious racial analyses about why people voted the way they did but then cherry pick the questions you answer, or do you want to man up and stand behind the stuff you say and expand on your thoughts?


----------



## Baron Greuner

Right now I'm watching a couple of fascinating docs from Japanese television about railways and carnivals. What! You're watching programs about foreigners while England are playing Scotland in a World Cup qualifier I hear you cry? 

Uhh yes because I find foreign lands and foreigners a lot more educational and interesting.

In the USA, it appears to most of us in the UK that have half a brain and don't have problems with whatever result happens, thus throwing everyone into denial, then disbelief usually followed by anger, the UK has been subjected to 12 months of some seriously fucked up media coverage. These filthy trash have deliberately insulted everyone's intelligence for some bollocksed up reasons of their own.
On top of that, they actually fucking discussed in a serious, yes serious debate in fucking parliament about banning a possible future US President from the UK. Try to get your head round that because I sure as shit cannot.

It's more to do with having to put up with this kind asshole for the past 12 months constantly, rather than giving a shit about who wins.

And yes, in real life, sadly I am a fckng hard case with an IQ of 162. Sorry if that's disappointing, but I had a tough paper round.


----------



## NYC Composer

And my IQ was measured at 166. Who the hell cares?

Don't mistake compassion for weakness. I'll take on anybody anywhere without calling them moronic, and I will find places of agreement. That's an approach based in intelligence and reason.


----------



## Soundhound

What a piece of work. Jesus f*cking Christ.

Back to the discussion. Trump is filling the transition team to the brim with lobbyists/corporatists. Will the people who voted for him see it when he stabs them in the back?


----------



## Baron Greuner

Well then I bow to your greater intelligence Larry.

I'm a better golfer than your though.


----------



## NYC Composer

Oh I don't care about that, Adrian. Just tell me if I'm white enough.


----------



## NYC Composer

Actually, hound, I want to know how Trump is going to bring our jobs back.I can already feel the sweet urine of economic freedom trickling down on the people.


----------



## Baron Greuner

I don't care if people are blue with pink fucking spots as long as they're interesting and don't bore the shit out of me. At this time of life, you have to work out whats worth doing on an almost actuarial basis.


----------



## Michael K. Bain

NYC Composer said:


> Actually, hound, I want to know how Trump is going to bring our jobs back.I can already feel the sweet urine of economic freedom trickling down on the people.


Is that anything like the tingle that went up Chris Matthews' leg?


----------



## NYC Composer

I don't think they have to bring his job back-yet.


----------



## Soundhound

He's going to bring jobs back like I'm going to get a spot on the Knicks starting rotation. 

If he created a gigantic public works program, that's how it could happen. With a transition team full of lobbyists though, I have a way better chance of cracking the Knicks starting five.

Atlanta protest is tonight it turns out. There goes my peaceful friday night watching basketball. I don't even know where my coats are and its suddenly freaking cold here.


----------



## NYC Composer

I don't understand the protests. They seem too general to me. And I believe the election was legal. I would rather protest specific things that happen, and I imagine I'll get my shot


----------



## Sebastianmu

NYC Composer said:


> I want to know how Trump is going to bring our jobs back.


AFAIK with something quite similar to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichsautobahn


----------



## Soundhound

I actually agree. But I think it's important to make it clear that a big part of this country is horrified at the idea that this guy is going to president, and is willing to do something, anything about it.

Fuck Donald Trump and the racist train he rode in on.



NYC Composer said:


> I don't understand the protests. They seem too general to me. And I believe the election was legal. I would rather protest specific things that happen, and I imagine I'll get my shot


----------



## chimuelo

Highways
Excellent start for the new empire.
Investment is also wise as it appears Treasury Yields rose to 2.8%.
In the short term there's shortages for window replacements, American flags and these.


----------



## NYC Composer

chimuelo said:


> Highways
> Excellent start for the new empire.
> Investment is also wise as it appears Treasury Yields rose to 2.8%.
> In the short term there's shortages for window replacements, American flags and these.


Which did you go for, Jim? All of the above?


----------



## JonFairhurst

NYC Composer said:


> Re third party-
> 
> Actually, I believe this was, in essence, a third party win. The Republicans didn't win it, the cult of Trump did. Political correctness be damned, he flew his nativist/fear flag high and a lot of people liked it.
> 
> I think we could see the Bernie Party (with a new candidate)making noise in 2020.



There's some truth to this; however, there were not three viable candidates on the ballot. And if Republicans voted Libertarian, they weren't effectively opposing Clinton. Same thing for Democrats who vote for Stein or write in Bernie not effectively opposing Trump.

The closest we had to three choices was Perot, but one charismatic guy at the top of the ticket who can draw from both parties doesn't create true multiple-choice elections year after year.

That's why I really like IRV:
* Case 1: A 3rd party candidate with limited popularity is on the extreme. People who like their extreme REALLY don't want the polar opposite to win. They can vote their conscience while still effectively voting against their diametric opposition. The moderate nearby likely wins (all things being equal.)
* Case 2: A 3rd party candidate on the extreme is very popular - more popular than the nearest moderate. Maybe the moderate gets eliminated first. Now we get a head-to-head race between the popular extremist and their polar opposition. Depending on how the moderates voted for slot 2, it could go either way.
* Case 3: A 3rd party candidate finds positions that appeal left and right and is popular. They might just win and represent a divided country better than either extreme. People for both extremes likely cast their 2nd option vote for the middle person, rather than their opposite.

Without IRV, a popular 3rd party candidate near your positions likely dooms you to a loss. In some ways, Bernie was that 3rd party candidate without being on the ballot. Right or wrong, any Bernie voter who didn't vote for Clinton (and Democratic Senate candidates) harmed Bernie's party. 

The divided lose.


----------



## JonFairhurst

Regarding the protests in Portland and Seattle, please understand the dynamics.

The movement starts peacefully. Anarchists come in a mess things up. It doesn't matter what the cause might be. The anarchists don't care. They see opportunity for disruption and take advantage of it. 

This is sad for all involved. The protesters' message gets undone by outsiders. (Note that the outsiders aren't necessarily agent provocateurs. Many are just thrill seekers.) The violence puts stress on the police. Damage is done to business and property owners. Bad news for everybody - all because of a small group of screw ups.


----------



## chimuelo

Well said Jon.
I was bothered by Iran's Kudz force training in Venezuela.
They were suppose to infiltrate through the southern border, then trained in Spanish pose as Hispanics while shooting people and blowing things up.
2 years ago we caught one trying to assassinate the Saudi Ambassador.
Yet we thought billions would make them kinder and gentler.
UN just said today there's proof they cheated and are still proceeding.
Easier now thanks to the Russians having excess Uranium from American mines they now own.

These anarchists need to be singled out and cast into a hole somewhere.

My fear is the Iranians will make good on thier threats.
But that was before Trump.

Who knows what they're up to but it's not a good time to be kind and gentle to anarchy.

Sad that innocent kids wanting to blow off steam get caught in this.

If they were smart they would turn in the ones causing harm.
They are not on the same team.


----------



## chimuelo

Just got a Veterans Day message from Tulsi G.
She should be our 1st female president, as she can't be taken down, as she is as clean as preachers sheets.
Anyone trying go low on her would see thier support shrink to nothingness.

Her not even knowing that I belong to no Crime Family or law firm, only from donations sent me a message on how she is going forward.

I pray she is involved for a long time to come.
I'd copy and paste here but it's not my idea, but what a bright future she has.

She pretty much stands apart from the wealthy Liberals.
Stepped down from the DNC, was given minimal support from the Pelosi Wasserman Shultz lying bastards.

What a great mood I'm in after reading what a REAL Liberal had to say.

Every time someone here starts bleeding again and insulting a geographical reference point they only know from Google, I will refrain from anger, and think positive.

Shit I might even want to read more Hindu scriptures.
Fascinated by the Mahabharata.


----------



## Soundhound

i'm going to a protest march in a blue city in a red state. passed a bunch of newly hung out confederate flags. knock yourself out jimmy.


----------



## chimuelo

Share some pics.
Maybe fill up a squirt gun with bleach and discolor the cheap flags probably made in Malaysia any ways.

Reminds me of a DSP developer from Russia's story of what him and Russian soldiers did while guarding some stretch of border in Siberia.

Chinese soldiers would spend 20 minutes rolling out a 100 yard long cloth banner of Chairmen Mao then hoist it up towards Russia.
Russian commander would let them waste time getting everything ready then raise it up.
Then ordered his men to drop thier pants baring their asses to Mao.
The soldiers scurried trying to take it down.

Unless you're embarrassed about your chubby thighs that might anger the Klansmen you somehow wanted to live by...

Right on brother.


----------



## JonFairhurst

chimuelo said:


> These anarchists need to be singled out and cast into a hole somewhere.



I'll note that you got the punctuation right. Lower case "anarchists." While some might be organized or political, it seems that most are just in it for the chaos. It's kind of like the punk rock energy I mentioned in the other thread.

If there are organized Anarchists (an oxymoron!), it's not obvious. I think it's more just loosely associated "gangs" of friends.


----------



## NYC Composer

chimuelo said:


> Just got a Veterans Day message from Tulsi G.
> She should be our 1st female president, as she can't be taken down, as she is as clean as preachers sheets.
> Anyone trying go low on her would see thier support shrink to nothingness.
> 
> Her not even knowing that I belong to no Crime Family or law firm, only from donations sent me a message on how she is going forward.
> 
> I pray she is involved for a long time to come.
> I'd copy and paste here but it's not my idea, but what a bright future she has.
> 
> She pretty much stands apart from the wealthy Liberals.
> Stepped down from the DNC, was given minimal support from the Pelosi Wasserman Shultz lying bastards.
> 
> What a great mood I'm in after reading what a REAL Liberal had to say.
> 
> Every time someone here starts bleeding again and insulting a geographical reference point they only know from Google, I will refrain from anger, and think positive.
> 
> Shit I might even want to read more Hindu scriptures.
> Fascinated by the Mahabharata.


Why not copy and paste, if it's as good a message as you say it is?


----------



## NYC Composer

Btw, any of you proud patriots who'd like to send a Veterans Day thank you message to my son who recently served in Afghanistan, you're welcome to post it here. I'll pass it on.


----------



## Soundhound

Got that email from Tulsi as well.

Anybody see Trump's tweet about the protests? A whining little bitch. This is going to be the president of the united states. And he's filling his team with lobbyists. Will the people who voted for him realize it when he completely throws them under the bus? Looks like we're going to find out pretty quickly.

The rally I went to was civil, polite, but energetic. People in the their 20s and 30s, talking about the Trump culture of hate, and local issues as well, and then marched. Lots of cars honking in support as they went by. Pretty good.


----------



## NYC Composer

"Every time someone here starts bleeding again and insulting a geographical reference point they only know from Google, I will refrain from anger, and think positive."

Wait-you mean the way you insult people who live in big cities on a daily basis?

You don't see it Jimmy, but you are part of the problem.


----------



## chimuelo

Independents are the solution.
Split ticket voters always decide the race.

I voted for HRC and still won because if she did win she resides over Liberal losses in the state local and federal seats.
I have to give white racists a chance I guess.
If they anger us we'll get rid of them too.

So really in a forum full of believers blinded by thier hatred of an non existent foe, my kind are the solution.


----------



## chimuelo

The Liberals failed you guys and us during thier super majority.
They changed the Senate laws which will now bite them in the ass.
Just another example of thier neolithic incompetence.
They should shave changed the electoral vote, which they lose everytime, to the popular vote that they win.

Its not that lying Liberals are wrong, theyre never right.
8 years of the worst decisions.
Sorry thats unacceptable.
Hence thier dismissal.


----------



## NYC Composer

Who's the hater here again?


----------



## chimuelo

Several from what I see.
My analysis is your definition of hatred?
Explains why every Liberal loss is racist.

Yuze guys just need smarter folks.
Maybe try avoiding the worshipping of the wealthiest, to having faith in less fortunate smarter leaders.

I'm going with Tulsi.
You can have Chelsea.


----------



## NYC Composer

"Yuze guys".

Okay. 

"Yuze guys are maroons and racists. Yuze just need smarter folks, because yuze's asses are out in 4 years, after yuze guys wreck the economy and tear America further apart."

There.

Now we've completed our intelligent and comprehensive dialogue, Jimmy. We sure have moved things forward. Yuze really piss me off when yuze speak like an imbecile, which I know you aren't, but man you sure can play one on the Internet with those ridiculous generalizations.

I work really hard at keeping you in conversations because I need intelligent feedback from people I often disagree with. It's the only way to learn and grow, challenging your own beliefs, but I'll be damned if I'll be disrespected. Either speak civilly or get the fuck out, please.


----------



## chimuelo

Then please show me what happened to the Liberal TPP, the ACA, the Iran deal, the Senate 51 vote, the wasted executive orders.
I supported Obama and got shafted, even during Iran many here were saying shit and I said the man has more information than we do, lets see.
Then Ben Rhodes acting like Jonathan Gruber showed us dummies how he manipulated "journalists,"

Obama got Bin Laden.
Thank God he did something right.

Im ready for the last resort.
A loud mouth arrogant businessman.

Ill give him a chance too. If he fucks up, then independents will increase your numbers so Liberals can finally claim a victory for something.

Id love to see Conservatives crying on YouTube.
Not sure they can out do the little Liberal darlings though.
Obviously they should bring back losers and winners.
The participation trophy generation is embarrassing.


----------



## NYC Composer

"The system's rigged, folks. It's so, so, so rigged."

Gee. I guess an orange man can't get a break in this liberal globalist society. Whine whine whine-except he did. He got elected. Huh. I guess the system wasn't so rigged. But wait....

Now, since he said he very likely wouldn't accept the results of the election, turn around should be fair play, yes?

Funny. Yeah. Conservatives never cry- AFTER they win.


----------



## NYC Composer

And btw- I AM an independent, since 2000. 16 years.


----------



## Soundhound

I have always hated the idea of a businessman as president. It's a terrible concept in theory, but far far worse in practice. W was to be the MBA president, which I thought would be simply a sellout to big business, I didn't see economic collapse and endless war. Reagan sold the whole country out to the businessmen who ran him, and his idiotic ideas set the country back 50 years.

Reagan was a simpleton, a puppet, Bush was an incompetent, but neither was an unhinged cipher like Trump. If we can survive four years of this vulgar imbecile, maybe there will truly be a progressive party, democrats or otherwise, who can again pick up the pieces as Obama did after Bush. But I don't hold out much hope. Impeaching the idiot won't do any good, we'll have a fundamentalist religious nut as president then when Pence comes in. And after him comes Paul Ryan who wants to turn health insurance into a voucher program.

Again, when Trump voters realize they've been had, it's going to be ugly. It's already ugly. It's going to get worse.



chimuelo said:


> Im ready for the last resort.
> A loud mouth arrogant businessman.


----------



## NYC Composer

The first year is always roses and the promise of a new day. After that, things usually come clear.

Here's one thing I think about The Way Forward, which agrees with some of Jimmy's premise.

I voted for HRC. She lost. No matter how much I loathe the man Trump has been thus far, I don't want to see him crap all over the country-I want him to prove, to my amazement, that he's a better man than I think he is, that he loves his country and will improve it. "Repeal and replace"? Fine. Replace it with something better. "Make America Great Again."? Ok. How? Jobs, infrastructure, less involvement in military matters? Hard to believe, but we'll see. I can't hope the man fails so I can be "right"! That's ridiculous.


----------



## woodsdenis

So Trumpites your glorious leader has appointed his kids now to his transition team, yes the American psycho, the ex model and the one with the dumb grin are now part of the White House team all to be headed up by anti semite Steve Bannon. This is what you voted for, try defending it now. Lets be clear here to any defenders of this clown, go to Breitbart and read what this guy stands for, and that includes you Jimmy. Try and get a grip this time and not attack the messenger. Your juvenile unhinged rant at me was the only time I have actually understood you, whole sentences with verbs and all. Keep it up in your normal posts why don't ya.

As a prediction of the way forward, the Republicans will not tolerate Bannon (a man who has vowed to take over the party) anywhere in the Whitehouse with a president they can't control. Ideal situation would be an impeachment so that their traditional controllable puppet Pence would there in command. Sounds like "House of Cards" but think of it, wouldn't that be a situation that most rep politicians would prefer, and just wait until all the shit on Trump emerges let alone what the impending court case throws up. I am calling this now.

At what point in the circus do you wake up and say oops I made a mistake, and I will repeat, resentment is no reason for abject stupidity.


----------



## Baron Greuner

I've jumped on the democrat bandwagon.

I've started an inter web petition to get signatures to reverse the result of the 3.35 at Plumpton last Saturday. There's no way that racehorse wasn't doped imo!

So far no one has signed it, but it's early days and I'm optimistic.


----------



## chimuelo

Bite me woods.
You're aren't a messenger, your an errand boy sent by a gross recluse.
Go change some Omnisphere preset names and pretend you made them.
I'll just hope for the best.

Canadian and Mexican leaders offering concessions on NAFTA.
Seems fragile economies have smart leaders, realizing they prosper from trade with us.
Putin is already talking about cooperation with the USA as he wants those Iranian pipelines through the Caspian.
My long legged Mandarin sweetheart says thier media speaks positively about Trump.
So I look for good things, don't care what the losers think. They're in pain and I hope the suffering resides by Christmas.
If not, Fuck em.

Trump has Shumer, behind closed doors they will carry on thier decades long relationship, allowing Chuck to go to the podium and talk tough as he reads off a script somebody else wrote.
Maintaining some of the old lies will make transitions smoother.

Looking forward to watching our system stinging from younger members having a voice now instead of Pelosi and Reid playing thier pathetic games where we lose and they get rich.

Tulsi is coming.
Melanie and DJT will love her.
Her positive message must silence the fake racism, fake outrage.
I'd like DJT to use Hillary in an advisory role.
Obama will be playing free Golf on all of Trumps Golf Courses.


----------



## woodsdenis

hey muelo I would really not want to bite you as I am sure your an anti vaxer , back to jerking off to Deliverance for you now. You really need too get better insults, it comes with an education.


----------



## chimuelo

woodsdenis said:


> hey muelo I would really not want to bite you as I am sure your an anti vaxer , back to jerking off to Deliverance for you now. You really need too get better insults, it comes with an education.



I sympathise for you.
May you learn to love as well as you hate.
Girly man.


----------



## Soundhound

It comes out indeed, and I'm so sad to see it. Right wingers get pissed off when questioned, and lash out by casting aspersions on other men's masculinity. On others' concerns by calling them 'weak'. 

Did I say right wingers? I meant fascists. Read Adrian's posts when he's angry, they are racist, misogynist and xenophobic. And I've had it with these people. You know why those things have become cliches? Because it's rampant right now thanks to Donald Trump encouraging people to feel like it's okay to act that way. Disgusting.


----------



## chimuelo

It's OK to be a girly man.
47% of American women say so.
The other 53% say they prefer thier men not to cry in public.
Pretty evenly matched I'd say.


----------



## woodsdenis

30% of republicans believe in bombing the middle east city of Aladdin, what does that tell you.


----------



## chimuelo

woodsdenis said:


> 30% of republicans believe in bombing the middle east city of Aladdin, what does that tell you.


That you scour girly man media to soothe your pain.


----------



## woodsdenis

Keeping digging that hole for yourself leathcheann. Pure gold.


----------



## chimuelo

Okay.
You win.
I've never encountered such a formidable foe.

A way forward is the thread.

If you wish to keep bleeding on everything, vent over at the thread of yesterday.

Fair enough?


----------



## Sebastianmu

I have to say, this is an exceptionally depressing thread. It proves that average and seemingly reasonable people just have no way of getting along with each other.


----------



## NYC Composer

The Internet at its best. You know, nothing says "I'm intelligent" like hurling snide insults back and forth, and Denis, I'm still waiting for your first post that addresses the thread title.

Jim, how many times do I have to ask you politely to stop- do you WANT to be banned?? Hannes is losing patience and I'm uninterested in protecting unproductive personal
insults and nonsense.


----------



## woodsdenis

The way forward Larry is to fight , obstruct, frustrate and inhibit every single policy they put forward that you disagree with, adopt the Republican hardball approach that frustrated Obama in the last term. If this forum is a microcosm of what you are dealing with then it should be obvious. Dreams of Trump being docile are bullshit with Steve Bannon and co in the Whitehouse. Unfortunately it is as simple as that.


----------



## NYC Composer

Denis-I do not believe Trump will be docile, and as a Jew I know what Steve Bannon is. I am onboard with the idea of fighting policies-if they really try to deport 12 million, I will be one of many to picket and try to obstruct. As any of those policies happen, I will contribute my money, my physical presence, and my time. I may start wearing a goddamn safety pin, weird as that campaign is.

Outside of protest about specifics, however, things are going to be hard to stop. All three branches of government are hard to block. How do you plan to obstruct?


----------



## Soundhound

Here's a start for the obsctuction I want. I want democratic members of congress to obstruct radical right wing choices for the supreme court. If that means no additions to the Supreme court for four years, then I want that. The Dems need to fight fire with fire wherever and however they can.

And anyone who doesn't, gets primaried. Support real progressives in the midterms. Anyone who doesn't stand up for progressive positions in the first two years of Trump's term, primary them. Get them out of there and vote in real progressives. Now is exactly the time when Democrats in Congress can effectively have their feet held to the fire and we can change things.

I think Trump is going to get heat from both sides, and I'm worried about how he will react, because he's not stable. I think when/if he doesn't toe the line for the republicans, they could easily try and impeach him. If Bill Clinton could be impeached for a blowjob, imagine what they could do to Trump. I don't think you can count on many of the people who voted for him seeing him as betraying them, but I think you could see the Democrats finally coming to see that their political life depends on being progressive.

The more I think about it, the more I think this is the time to push for a genuinely progressive Democratic party. Not to hope for one, to vote one in.


----------



## Red

Meanwhile, in South Korea.





The president got caught lying to the public. This is her first time getting caught.


----------



## chimuelo

And where there is one lie, there are many as wikileaks so eloquently displayed.

We don't want lying Liberals sent to the Guillotine, just sent back to thier mansions.

And Soundhound I agree SCOTUS is important.
We need a woman to replace Ginsberg.
Then add a Hispanic man for the 9th seat.
Pam Bondi and Ted Cruz would be perfect.


----------



## Soundhound

And should the progressive Dems take back congress in 2 years (they increased their numbers in both the house and the sent btw, they just don't control them yet), create public election finance legislation, pass the fucker and send it to Trump's desk once a month, march on Washington and Trump Tower until he signs it.


----------



## Soundhound

Next thing you do with a democratic progressive congress is investigate republican voter suppression. The FBI and DOJ will be full of Republicans, so nothing will change till 2020. Open it up and show the country what these people have been doing for the last 20 years.


----------



## NYC Composer

Sound like a plan, 'Hound.

Maybe Wikileaks can help by hacking Steve Bannon! We'll have to see if Trump treats Assange nicely, as Wikileaks now appears to be Assange's personal revenge machine.


----------



## NYC Composer

Elizabeth Warren and Judge Curiel.


----------



## woodsdenis

The Hound said it all !!!!


----------



## chimuelo

Yuze guys are so self centered and greedy. Listen to yourselves.
Hate filled, paranoid vindictive losers.

Not one of you guys are interested in the pathway for citizenship, poverty or school choice, it's simply kill the enemy, the media (that's going out of business) told us they're evil and I am angry I didn't win, wah wah wah...

I will enjoy watching all of yuze guys whine for months to come.
I actually hope he hijacks the hispanic vote away from your pathetic self centered causes.


----------



## Soundhound

I'm gonna take the high road. Why? Fuck if I know. 

You're totally projecting Jimmy. Projectile is more like it, but I'll try to be civil even though you're being a jerk. I'm not finished yet, gimme a second for fuck's sake! You'll get the more of the plan after I have my scotch and watch the game.




chimuelo said:


> Yuze guys are so self centered and greedy. Listen to yourselves.
> Hate filled, paranoid vindictive losers.
> 
> Not one of you guys are interested in the pathway for citizenship, poverty or school choice, it's simply kill the enemy, the media (that's going out of business) told us they're evil and I am angry I didn't win, wah wah wah...
> 
> I will enjoy watching all of yuze guys whine for months to come.
> I actually hope he hijacks the hispanic vote away from your pathetic self centered causes.


----------



## chimuelo

A word to the wise.
85,000,000 whites eligible to vote have not registered and haven't voted.
It was 88,000,000 before.
They are mostly rural, they have money, not like the fake media showing KKK/Nazis and trailers.
Keep the fake racism shit going.
2010, lost
2012, lost
2014, even more
2016 GOP Super Majority.

Wanna try for 2018 and 2020.
The MSNBC CNN CBS NBC ABC "experts" won't see this coming either.

Crying about "white Racists" and "White privilige" backfires consistently.
Are yuze really this blind deaf and dumb?


----------



## woodsdenis

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/11/08/us/politics/election-exit-polls.html?_r=0

Quite clearly shows that Trumps support is mainly from white males over 45 with no college degree, thats a fact, it maths FFS. 67% of his vote was white without a college degree, need I say more.


----------



## chimuelo

College graduates ran the Clinton campaign and DNC, yet were hacked by a low level thug.
Guess he didn't let schooling get in the way of a good education....


----------



## Hannes_F

woodsdenis said:


> http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/11/08/us/politics/election-exit-polls.html?_r=0
> 
> Quite clearly shows that Trumps support is mainly from white males over 45 with no college degree, thats a fact, it maths FFS. 67% of his vote was white without a college degree, need I say more.



Hmm ... sure about what you are saying here?

OK it is late so a little math here: ~ 20 % of all american voters are male whites over 45 years. 67 % of white males without a college degree voted for Trump. Given that Trump received around 50 % of all votes this means that ~ *28 %** of all votes for Trump were white males over 45 years without a college degree. That is more than for Clinton but not the majority of Trump voters.

(~14 % of all votes were white males over 45 years without a college degree over 45 years who voted for Trump)

* all that give or take some percent because the voter participation might vary between white males over 45 years and all others


----------



## NYC Composer

I see that you're no longer discussing, Jimmy, just talking shit and generalizing. Now I'm done speaking with you, and thanks for making me sorry I started a discussion thread. I thought you were better than this. You've proven me wrong.


----------



## chimuelo

Fine with me.
But maybe rename the thread "A Way Forward For Defeated Liberals."
Then I would have steered clear of the bleeders.

Thought maybe we were interested in a path to citizenship, medicaid for everyone in need, etc.
That way forward.
Instead it's a selfish thread of how can I win again....sniffle..sniffle


----------



## Soundhound

Jimmy you're being a jerk, stop it! I said I would post more things I think we could do, I'm still watching the game. You now officially are outside the title of this thread I see. Getting money out of politics is selfish? The way you argue, there's a spot on Trump's transition team waiting. Give Reince a call.

One more for when the new progressive Dems take over in 2018—or if Trump turns out to be a good guy (yeah right)—and then I'll pick it up in the AM. Gigantic public works project. Fix the roads, bridges, airports, water and power systems, massive high speed rail system. That's how you bring jobs.

Now suck it up and stop acting like a child.

I already know the Knicks lost (do NOT go online when you're watching a game, oy) but you gotta watch the whole game or you can't know how to fix things. Luckily as of this evening I've picked up another team to love. The classiest organization in sports just showed even more class thanks to the best coach in the game the last 20 years:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sport...egg-popovich-donald-trump-20161111-story.html


----------



## NYC Composer

I could be totally wrong about this, but one thing I don't lose sleep over is "repeal and replace." I think the genie is out of the bottle. I doubt they'll be able to throw 20 million people off the health insurance roles or re-institute the pre-existing conditions idea, but I guess we'll see. Obamacare was always going to have to be fixed anyway. I don't think people will be happy to give up their "free stuff." (what a nauseating concept, that healthcare should be viewed as an "entitlement", as if that was a bad thing.)

I'm sure we're going to see the word "vouchers" used often.

I don't think Trump will manage to change the Constitution to start banning people by religion. That said, I can certainly understand why any Muslim in this country would be fearful. Harassment and mosque burnings, if they occur, will require strong and supportive responses. I hope they don't happen, but I'll be marching if they do.

I wonder what the result of the first terrorist attack will be. Probably more whining about how it's all Obama's fault.
If Trump holds on for 8 years, that's an awful lot of blaming someone else, but that seems to be high in his skill set.

My son had an interesting take. He said "well, one good thing is that people are IN it now, involved. People are energized about politics." Again, I guess we'll see. These pendulums swing in varying directions. For the present, they've certainly swung to nativism, which usually starts with fear. Then the clock ticks again. I certainly believe all of this will wake up self-satisfied progressives who thought they knew the country better than they did. It's a little late, but still.

I'm interested in seeing the Brits' reaction to this, what with Parliamentary approval apparently needed to trigger Article 50. We'll soon see how energized nativism has become in the Western world. I'm sure Ms. Le Pen is feeling cheerful.


----------



## JonFairhurst

Here's one way forward...

My local congressperson is a moderate Republican woman who did not support Trump. I plan to call her office regularly asking her to vote for her constituents over party. If there is good (or at least benign) legislation on the table, go ahead and vote for it. But if they start pushing an alt-right agenda, she needs to stand against her party, loudly.

I recognize that I need to avoid making this about parties and personalities. This is about actions.

For instance, it's not helpful to call people racist. The key is to call out and oppose racist acts. We need to oppose authoritarian policies - loudly. And we need our congressional members of all parties to do the same.

So call your congressional representatives - regardless of party affiliation. Let them know that you are watching them - closely.


----------



## NYC Composer

I totally agree on the REFLEXIVE, knee jerk action of calling people racists. Unproductive and weakens an argument.

On the other hand, an example of the need for honesty and calling out actual racists-pretending that you don't know who David Duke is, while politically expedient, repulsive. Not repudiating hate groups is akin to faintly blessing them.

Of course, if winning is the only object, tactics don't matter.

Whenever blanket, racist sounding statements are made, I like to substitute the word Jew for, say, Muslim. Or Mexican. That reminds me of the fact that if you don't speak up, eventually they come for you.

It's not productive to see racists everywhere. It's also dangerous to forget that there are plenty of them, and that when they're uncovered, it should not go unremarked.


----------



## woodsdenis

Hannes_F said:


> Hmm ... sure about what you are saying here?
> 
> OK it is late so a little math here: ~ 20 % of all american voters are male whites over 45 years. 67 % of white males without a college degree voted for Trump. Given that Trump received around 50 % of all votes this means that ~ *28 %** of all votes for Trump were white males over 45 years without a college degree. That is more than for Clinton but not the majority of Trump voters.
> 
> (~14 % of all votes were white males over 45 years without a college degree over 45 years who voted for Trump)
> 
> * all that give or take some percent because the voter participation might vary between white males over 45 years and all others


The point being that the largest voting block for Trump is quite clearly the over 45 non educated etc
Nobody is claiming that no other segment voted for him. Look at Trump rallies for obvious proof of that element. NB 70% of voters are white and half of regitered voters didn't vote and to top it 60 % of Republicans believe that Obama isn't American. So I call it a whitelash pure and simple propelled by the not so very bright.


----------



## Baron Greuner

Good to see Obama cut a deal with Australia to take those 1200 immigrants. FFS for a second there I thought Cameron had done a deal that they were coming here.


----------



## chimuelo

Yes [EDITED by moderator], in America blacks all voted for Obama @ 97%.
By your brilliant deductions they are racists.
Although after many poor decisions that support did drop to a whopping low 92%.

They weren't college graduates in large either. Just not as smart as you.

Maybe you were bleeding all over them too, can't recall.

Did you get a degree in journalism?
NYTimes will be looking for stenographers, and new subscribers to replace thier huge drop from thier lack of honesty, you'd fit right in.
Green and yellow feathers, blue and red trim.
Parrot boy.


----------



## NYC Composer

240 years of America. Hundreds of years of slavery and apartheid. First black candidate nominated by a major party. Amazing that black people, traditionally Democratic anyway, voted for Obama.

Racist, that's some genius thinking. Good that you keep up with the Breitbart Doctrines. In your racist (as you so often say) community I'm sure there are some friendly hood wearing folk who think you're one of the mud people.

[Edited by moderator] "Parrot boy." Ah, junior high-it's not just for pre-adolescents anymore! Now it's also for brave Internet warriors with nowhere else to vent their overwhelming anger.

You asked me to change the thread title. I did. Didn't you see the sign on the door?

Yep, I changed my mind. Yeah, I'll engage you. Let's see who the bigger fool is. I'll bet you'll win again.

Oh, btw, what was your on-topic message? Or...are you just going to name call for a while until you get edited and banned again? That will surely prove how brilliant and how very, very right you are.

It's wonderful to see your allegiance to our new Prez, but there's really no reason to expand on your (considerable) narcissism to emulate him.

Seriously-can't you go find somebody else's threads to piss in, or are you just gonna follow me around?


----------



## chimuelo

Im for a new way forward.
Thats what we do here Larry.
I voted none of the above in 2012 but still supported Obama.
While cutting the Liberal liars down to nothing at every chance.
They abused power, lied to Americans, even asked Obama not to support their 2014 campaigns.
Instead the Clintons showed up and they lost even more candidates.

That should have given liberals an indication what to expect in 2016.
Bernie tried to ruin the wealthy liberal kingdom.
That brought us DJT.

I'll demand corporations get tax breaks in exchange for repatriating and say no to billionaires tax breaks.
A huge Trump tax policy flaw.
Im an issue voter.

Just like millions of other brown and white racists.
One button voters bring nothing to a discussion except lack of research.

Your reasoning for black support is valid, I voted for the same reasons even though his voting record was simply blank as his entry in the Senate was step one to higher office.

Soros Holder Sharpton divided America and make money from doing so.


----------



## chimuelo

I stand against your buddies.
Look forward to seeing them get thier employees arrested. Hopefully prosecuted.

My way forward differs from parrots flight backwards.
I should be banned.

Can I still read if I banned?
I spend lots of money here.
That wont stop me from coming.
Then again maybe it will.


----------



## NYC Composer

i don't care if you fucking get banned or edited or anything else. I've never asked for it and never will. I'll argue content with you til the cows come home, but for the 100th time, stop patronizing me, stop telling me who my "buddies" are, and stop name calling and generally pissing in my threads or do me the immense favor of fucking off. I've lost patience with this nonsense. I've shown you plenty of respect and you've repaid me by ignoring my reasonable requests. If you think I'm stupid, go find someone smart to grumble at. Either that or stick to content like an adult.


----------



## chimuelo

First of all I responded to the NYTimes subscriber.
You decided to speak for the copy/paste artist explaing the history of America.

But since you obviously involved yourself, what do you think about the damage caused by Liberals to other Liberals property in NYC?
If reports are accurate businesses in Manhattan are mostly Liberal owned.

Why would these college graduates destroy property of fellow Liberals.
Hey maybe theres classes that teach this and the students are all honor roll A students.

Nashville is enjoying the same megaphone stars.
They even busted guys painting swastikas on K rails.
Found out from the the twitter account they were from Deleware?

Nice way forward.
At least thier billionaire investors prepared for a Hillary loss instead of a victory parade.
More brains than the easily hacked superior white college graduates from the DNC.

All you learn from them is how to cheat and lie, stack the deck, and still lose after wasting billions.

Better hope they dont campaign for the DNC in 2018.
A way forward for consistent losses...


----------



## Soundhound

Jimmy seems to have made the transition from right wing anarchist. Maybe he feels the country after this election is one giant safe space for trolls. Say it ain't so, Jimbo.

Another thing for the Progressive Dems: put the factories and businesses for the green energy industry, to build solar panels, wind turbines, tidal technology/etc in areas devastated by the changing economy. West Virginia, Eastern Kentucky, Detroit (already coming back, I know, but still) the Rust Belt, basically. Public training programs to get people up and running in these businesses. Fund that with the money saved by no longer subsidizing the oil industry, and with money from the companies that get the government contracts for the sustainable energy build out. 

One thing for dealing with climate change. In New Orleans and other cities vulnerable to the newly higher seas, follow the model of the system that protects Amsterdam. Works like a charm. With Myron Ebell in charge of the EPA though, Florida could be a goner by the time the Progressive Dems are running things. Will get back to you on this one.


----------



## chimuelo

Im a Union member (2) who sides with issues that help American families.

Not Soros or Sharpton.
Not interested in Georges global investments, or his Coal and Oil projects.
If my choice is right wing vrs.Soros Sharpton.
Thats easy, and why havent they moved from the USA liked they promised?
Maybe Al gonna hang out for those tax breaks...

Just another lying Liberal, actually quite conservative underneath the guise of being a Reverend, who dealt narcotics and turned into a rat to save his skin.
Definately liberal traits there.
Anthony Weiner will turn out the same way.
He even has rodent features.

Begrudingly will stop supporting Trumps chances if he elects Ted Cruz to SCOTUS.
Smart move is to allow Obamas judge the seat.

So see, I like unity.
For the bleeders and losers, I will enjoy thier misery for months to come.
Most invigorating.


----------



## woodsdenis

If name calling is the only way forward then no discourse is possible. If muelo wants to continue then go ahead and embarass yourself more, as you seem to continually deny any racist element in this campaign, I will remind everyone about muelo calling Elizabeth Warren "Pocahontas " a disgusting racist taunt if there ever was one. Call me whatever you want, I have never sunk that low.


----------



## Hannes_F

Timeout for chimuelo for name calling. You have been warned more than once.


----------



## Baron Greuner

Elizabeth Warren is part of the problem and another notch in Trumps holster. She is partly why Clinton lost.


----------



## ghostnote

Here's an interesting article I found about whether Trumps future plans are realizable or not:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/13/trump-policy-pledges-gettysburg-speech


----------



## Soundhound

Since Adrian can't hear me, can someone ask him what his evidence for his characterization of Elizabeth Warren? I'm assuming he's making all that up.


----------



## Soundhound

Keith Ellison? Can he move the Democratic party to become a truly progressive party? Don't know that much about him but I like what he has to say so far...


----------



## Michael K. Bain

woodsdenis said:


> If name calling is the only way forward then no discourse is possible.


If Hannes was able to ban everyone of us who has ever insulted someone personally, not many would be left, including you.


----------



## Michael K. Bain

woodsdenis said:


> The point being that the largest voting block for Trump is quite clearly the over 45 non educated etc


Since when does "no college degree" equal "non educated" or "not so very bright"?


----------



## woodsdenis

Michael K. Bain said:


> If Hannes was able to ban everyone of us who has ever insulted someone personally, not many would be left, including you.


I called you out for your "liberals are baby killers " post. Deal with it. That's not an insult in my book to rebuke the disgusting. Take time and think how many people you insulted with that gem of Christian thinking.


----------



## Baron Greuner

No one reads the Guardian. Statistically, more people read the Financial Times, and hardly anyone reads the Financial Times. The Guardian is aimed at communists, and hardly anyone in this country is a communist.


----------



## woodsdenis

Baron Greuner said:


> and hardy anyone in this country is a communist.


You hope .


----------



## Soundhound

So then you are apologizing for calling abortion rights supporters, doctors etc. murderers?



Michael K. Bain said:


> If Hannes was able to ban everyone of us who has ever insulted someone personally, not many would be left, including you.


----------



## Hannes_F

Speaking as a moderator:
Ladies and Gentlemen, can you please draw a line under personal attacks, counter-attacks, self-justifications and return to the topic now?
Thank you.


----------



## Soundhound

Will do, Hannes. 

As I was saying, does anyone have any take on Keith Ellison? Is he a viable leader for a progressive democratic party?


----------



## Hannes_F

Speaking as a private person:
Just watched some minutes of nuanced and reasonable statements from Bernie Sanders, well worth the time.
Embedding the links does not work, so in case you are interested head over to CBS.


----------



## JonFairhurst

I think that Keith Ellison is a viable leader, but not a viable presidential candidate. I think that his Muslim faith makes him unelectable at the national level. Too many people have a deep rooted fear of Islam. That said, he could become a house minority/majority leader and be a very effective moral spokesperson.


----------



## Soundhound

The reason I ask is he's being talked about as DNC chairman. I'm reading that he's a capable organizer and a progressive. If the Democratic party is to really remake itself, the party leadership seems like one of the important places to start.



JonFairhurst said:


> I think that Keith Ellison is a viable leader, but not a viable presidential candidate. I think that his Muslim faith makes him unelectable at the national level. Too many people have a deep rooted fear of Islam. That said, he could become a house minority/majority leader and be a very effective moral spokesperson.


----------



## Michael K. Bain

woodsdenis said:


> I called you out for your "liberals are baby killers " post. Deal with it. That's not an insult in my book to rebuke the disgusting. Take time and think how many people you insulted with that gem of Christian thinking.


That's not what I was referring to. I later told why the forum why I posted that. But at the time I did it, I PMed NYComposer and told him. I was seeing if i could get away with doing what 3 liberals had done just before me: made ferocious sweeping generalizations against every Republican.
I'm referring to the time I said I'd hold up an anti-abortion sign in front of Clinton. You called me "pathetic", then "deranged", and I finally retaliated with "you idiot".


----------



## woodsdenis

Michael K. Bain said:


> That's not what I was referring to. I later told why the forum why I posted that. But at the time I did it, I PMed NYComposer and told him. I was seeing if i could get away with doing what 3 liberals had done just before me: made ferocious sweeping generalizations against every Republican.
> I'm referring to the time I said I'd hold up an anti-abortion sign in front of Clinton. You called me "pathetic", then "deranged", and I finally retaliated with "you idiot".


*Hold up a big sign right in her face with a photo of an aborted fetus on it. That's what I'd do.
*
Is exactly what you said, pathetic and deranged was entirely called for IMHO, if you feel aggrieved report my answer post and get me sanctioned. Seriously how do you think people should view you when you come out with that kind of thing. 

It seems like one madman goes and another steps in to further derail the thread. Your distortion of the truth or being deliberately forgetful is laughable.


----------



## NYC Composer

As Hannes said, how about everybody draw a line under it and start over. Abortion is an issue that is virtually unsolvable.


----------



## woodsdenis

NYC Composer said:


> As Hannes said, how about everybody draw a line under it and start over. Abortion is an issue that is virtually unsolvable.


Totally agree, simply responding to a blatant distortion and do not even consider rerunning that discussion. The bold sentence is a simple copy paste of what was said by him.


----------



## NYC Composer

Denis, you have to calm down too. This is not liberals vs conservatives-it's the way forward. Enough with the past except as analysis. You called him a madman. You need to stop.


----------



## woodsdenis

Fair enough Larry apologies. Back on topic.

People need to be held responsible for the things that they say and held accountable. Hoping that the president elect somehow turns out to be a nicer guy or retrained by his party etc and not do all the despicable things he has said in the past is exactly that, hope. He said it, let him own it until the day he dies. You cannot allow the "he only said that to get elected " excuse prevail, what happens next if this is the norm.

The million women march on his inauguration is a good start. The insanity of this is that most the people are hoping that he is not as unhinged as he seems, and a significant minority are praying that he is. As has been shown in the past having a million people on your front lawn has worked and changed America for the better.

To finish and TBH I will cease posting here as it not accomplishing anything, this is not a Left/Right discussion its a Centre v Extreme Right wing discussion in anybodies definition, and by that I mean the overall state of the two parties now.


----------



## Soundhound

Seems to me that what's likely to happen is basically the far right takes over. I mean, has taken over. Trump is not capable by intellect, temperament or experience to play a substantive role. There are 4,000 government jobs to fill. Trump has neither the interest nor the ability to be very involved. It seems likely that he'll appoint those closest to him to run the thing. Preibus is going to run the transition team. The far right is now in control.

So the way forward is to reinvent the Democrats as a populist party, or support a viable third populist party. Support Trump in every way possible when he tries to do good things. Infrastructure? Yes. Some way of creating jobs? Yes. But when he acts in the thrall of the radical right, fight at every turn. 

I suspect there will be more of the later. A religious bigot was just elected Vice President, and I'm sure the republicans in power would much prefer him as President. It'll be delicate. If they try to impeach Trump to get Pence in, support Trump if there's any way to do it.

My guess is that, as the republicans have shown when they are in power, it's going to be a disaster. So growing a genuinely populist Democratic party seems like the thing to do. That's the way forward seems to me at the moment.


----------



## NYC Composer

Agreed. The first things on the new populist agenda should be getting the money out of politics.

1. Public campaign financing
2. 5 year moratorium for public employees taking lobbying jobs.

The second things should be trying to make the case against the removal of regulations that protect the environment, gun control and the banking system. Illustrate with the increase of tornadoes, the despoliation of the state of Louisiana, which has been ecologically devastated. Cancer increase. Aquifer at risk. 

Banking-you don't need to go back far to illustrate what happens when banks are allowed to gamble unchecked. Push for reinstating Glass-Steagall.

Reasonable gun control-a complete loser of an issue in America, but is it the right thing to do? Then the new populist movement should stand for it and not bury it at election times.

These things needs to be presented to younger folks, get them energized, get them Bernie-excited. Bernie should probably lead, though not run. Or maybe he should run.


----------



## Soundhound

Great! I wonder if he shouldn't run. But having him spearhead the Democratic Progressive Party is a great idea. He might start slowing down in a few years, but right now maybe he and Keith Ellison and Warren can get together and start something. People love Bernie, people love Warren. 

And if he's still got it in four years, run Bernie run! I also like Michael Moore's idea of running a celebrity. The culture has been dumbed down precipitously, so just as the Dems should fight fire with fire and obstruct every way they can when the right tries to push through their crazy agenda, run a celebrity! The republicans did it with Reagan, and now Trump. Run! Run a celeb progressive who can generate a groundswell.


----------



## Michael K. Bain

woodsdenis said:


> *Hold up a big sign right in her face with a photo of an aborted fetus on it. That's what I'd do.
> *
> Is exactly what you said, pathetic and deranged was entirely called for IMHO, if you feel aggrieved report my answer post and get me sanctioned. Seriously how do you think people should view you when you come out with that kind of thing.
> 
> It seems like one madman goes and another steps in to further derail the thread. Your distortion of the truth or being deliberately forgetful is laughable.



Right, an anti-abortion sign, as I said.

Do you not understand the seriousness with which pro-lifers treat abortion? We think it's the murder of the most innocent of all human beings, do you not get that? Hillary Clinton believes in unrestricted abortion at any time - even up to the time of birth, she even said it in the debate. Yet you say it's deranged to confront a political leader who is so proc-hoice with a photo of an aborted fetus? If a fetus is just a tissue blob, why is it so horrifying to you?

I don't "feel aggrieved" as if you invaded my safe space. My point is about hypocrisy. You take such offense at Jimmy calling you "girly man", but think nothing of calling people "pathetic" and "deranged". Again, you called me personally "deranged". You did not call my views "deranged".


----------



## NYC Composer

Oy. Sean Penn vs. Jon Voight. My American nightmare.


----------



## NYC Composer

Michael K. Bain said:


> Right, an anti-abortion sign, as I said.
> 
> Do you not understand the seriousness with which pro-lifers treat abortion? We think it's the murder of the most innocent of all human beings, do you not get that? Hillary Clinton believes in unrestricted abortion at any time - even up to the time of birth, she even said it in the debate. Yet you say it's deranged to confront a political leader who is so proc-hoice with a photo of an aborted fetus? If a fetus is just a tissue blob, why is it so horrifying to you?
> 
> I don't "feel aggrieved" as if you invaded my safe space. My point is about hypocrisy. You take such offense at Jimmy calling you "girly man", but think nothing of calling people "pathetic" and "deranged". Again, you called me personally "deranged". You did not call my views "deranged".


Michael-I asked that you draw a line under it. We are NOT going to solve abortion, we are going to generally disagree. I called Denis out already-why do you have to do it again? Enough!!


----------



## KEnK

Michael K. Bain said:


> Hillary Clinton believes in unrestricted abortion at any time - even up to the time of birth, she even said it in the debate.


Incorrect-
Herr Trump made that claim about her. She didn't respond to that (or to many of his more ridiculous fantasies)
But we had a nice abortion thread once.
Let's not open that can of worms again in this new thread.

k


----------



## Soundhound

Speaking of people who want their primitive superstitions to be the law of the land, can we talk about Mike Pence a little bit here? This guy was a right wing radio host, a lower tier Rush Limbaugh. Will the radical (and now alt!) right now in power be using him as an end run around Trump? I just can't get my head around Trump actually staying in class for the whole 4 years. I think he'll wind up getting bored and pissed off and Pence could wind up running things.


----------



## Soundhound

Another question. Is there any precedent for this at all that could be instructive? Has there ever been a U.S. President that was as unprepared and/or mentally unstable as Trump? Seriously, can we look back and see anything to help predict what could happen here?


----------



## KEnK

Soundhound said:


> Has there ever been a U.S. President that was as unprepared and/or mentally unstable as Trump? Seriously, can we look back and see anything to help predict what could happen here?


Nixon seemed quite unstable at the end.
G.W. seemed completely unprepared for the job to me.
I think the beginning of Reagan's dementia remains an open question.
I think you need to look into lower offices for genuine instability.
The ex-mayors of Toronto and D.C. for example.
Plenty of crazed Kings and Rulers throughout history to study.


----------



## Soundhound

Right, it's a pretty small sample, U.S. Presidents. Those precedents don't make for a very hopeful outlook.


----------



## KEnK

Soundhound said:


> Those precedents don't make for a very hopeful outlook.


nor throughout history.
They have generally been marginalized, reduced to being a figure head.
W/ Pence's growing job description that might already be happening before Herr Trump takes office.


----------



## NYC Composer

Michelle Obama, 2020.


----------



## kavinsky

NYC Composer said:


> Michelle Obama, 2020.


so it has to be some sort of dynasty to please you, right?


----------



## NYC Composer

No, I have a deep admiration for her. I like the way she speaks. I'm also mulling over candidates. Why would you make that assumption?

If you were a Trump supporter, how are you feeling about Ivanka 2024?


----------



## Guy Bacos

I like Michelle Obama, and she's a crowd pleaser. Michelle for 2020, that would be a sweet revenge.


----------



## Michael K. Bain

NYC Composer said:


> Michael-I asked that you draw a line under it. We are NOT going to solve abortion, we are going to generally disagree. I called Denis out already-why do you have to do it again? Enough!!


I wasn't calling him out this time. I was responding to him. The calling him out came in my first post.


----------



## Soundhound

Why would someone say something like that? What does it even mean?
Trolling? 



kavinsky said:


> so it has to be some sort of dynasty to please you, right?


----------



## NYC Composer

It means people are inside my brain. They know all my thoughts and are peering into my cortex. I leave my aluminum foil hat off for a few minutes and this is what happens.


----------



## Soundhound

That'll learn ya. John Oliver had a great piece tonight on where people get their news from, saying that the majority of people now get their news from social media, the biggest percentage, 44% or so, get their news from Facebook. 

That would explain a lot. People aren't getting the news, they are getting it from their friends and from bloggers creating information they know their audience wants to hear. The balkanization of media, as Obama called it. 

It's never been more important to read real newspapers. The New York Times, The Washington Post. Every day. But the right wing has been taught by their echo chambers that the New York Times is a left wing rag and refuse to read it.

I'm at a loss to find a way forward on this, which may make all the others moot. Not to be a buzz kill or anything... open to any and all thoughts...


----------



## NYC Composer

Hound, look at it like this-if the NYT and the WP aren't liberal "echo chambers", why did they get the election so wrong?

On another topic, I mentioned earlier that I wasn't terribly worried about repeal and replace, and Trump is already making conciliatory noises about not wanting anyone to lose coverage. It looks like we may have a battle between Congress and Trump. Weird times.

He also may have an easier time doing an infrastructure program, now that it will be THEIR program.

BANNON is the biggest demon in all of this. He's the only person I can think of who makes Dick Cheney look cuddly. I wonder if ultimately Trump will disavow him. If not, it's going to be ugly.

I'm also seeing it in Trump's eyes already- he's daunted. It's a daunting job. Now he's got it. I don't think he ever really thought he would. We'll see what happens.


----------



## Hannes_F

NYC Composer said:


> It looks like we may have a battle between Congress and Trump. Weird times.



If he has the 'very, very good political instincts' that Bernie Sanders ascribes to him he could even appoint one or two non-establishment liberals into his team. Now that would be something.


----------



## KEnK

NYC Composer said:


> if the NYT and the WP aren't liberal "echo chambers", why did they get the election so wrong?


This election season I looked into "polling science"- how does it work? etc.
Most people deeply involved in collecting data agree that cell phones
and the volunteer online polling have skewed the results pretty far afield.

Personally I don't think the NYT or the WP are liberal echo chambers.
Both have a lot of right leaning opinion writers and journalists.
Most them have been strongly against Herr Trump all along.
They always present opposing perspectives-
But they, being "fact based" (as news should be) are not inclined to report the more absurd rightward stances (conspiracy, science denial, etc) as "news".
That they are thought of as such is more likely because of endless Hard Right smearing.
Fox Noise, Palin, Limbaugh, Coulter, et al. Choose yer News (noose) Lock Her Up!
Endless crap dripping along for so many years that even many on the left believe these unfounded smear campaigns as fact.

I think they "missed it" because of the Comey/Assange meddling.
Just a few thousand votes flipped these states.
No way to forsee the fx in so little time.

Also I think no one has been willing to admit that USA in 2016
would be so closely mirroring the Weimar Republic-
Yet here we are for many of the same reasons.
Even using the same slogans!

Don't blame those deservedly venerated journalist institutions-
Instead look the the fx of decades of propaganda disguised as news
on a purposefully (as in by design) undereducated population.

The Right Wing media is barely news-
Conspiracy theories, lies, false innuendo etc.
do not deserve to be considered in the same breath as actual news.
Those papers (NYT WP etc) don't deserve blame for not forecasting that Our Nation moved back in time 80 years.

k


----------



## Soundhound

It's a great question, and I think speaks to the fact that there are two Americas, and that they are increasingly different places. Whether they are that way inherently, or are that way because of a balkanized media is a tough question. Seems like it's the former to an extent, exacerbated and weaponized by the later.

But the Times' letter to its readers last Friday bears notice. To me it feels like the same kind of thing as Dan Rather losing his job 10 years ago. Traditionally centrist, to say nothing of left wing, media is under siege from the far right, just as centrist government is. I think these are very dangerous times. I think Steve Bannon does make a good bellwether. Trump has already restated his intention to to see Roe v Wade overturned. When asked what someone should do in a state where abortion is illegal, he said 'go to another state'. The two Americas come into sharper focus, it would seem.

There is talk about encouraging Obama to appoint Garland to the supreme court before he leaves office, that the Senate has effectively waived their right to advice and consent by not holding hearings. It would ultimately have to be decided in court apparently. My thought is he should absolutely do this. The right wing has been very divisive, it's time for the other side to stand their ground. This would be a very good place to start.




NYC Composer said:


> Hound, look at it like this-if the NYT and the WP aren't liberal "echo chambers", why did they get the election so wrong?


----------



## Soundhound

Yes. Very much so. 



KEnK said:


> This election season I looked into "polling science"- how does it work? etc.
> Most people deeply involved in collecting data agree that cell phones
> and the volunteer online polling have skewed the results pretty far afield.
> 
> Personally I don't think the NYT or the WP are liberal echo chambers.
> Both have a lot of right leaning opinion writers and journalists.
> They always present opposing perspectives-
> But they being "fact based" (as news should be) are not inclined to report the more absurd rightward stances (conspiracy, science denial, etc) as "news".
> That they are thought of as such is more likely because of endless Hard Right smearing.
> Fox Noise, Palin, Limbaugh, Coulter, et al. Choose yer News (noose) Lock Her Up!
> Endless crap dripping along for so many years that even many on the left believe these unfounded smear campaigns as fact.
> 
> I think they "missed it" because of the Comey/Assange meddling.
> Just a few thousand votes flipped these states.
> No way to forsee the fx in so little time.
> 
> Also I think no one has been willing to admit that USA in 2016
> would be so closely mirroring the Weimar Republic-
> Yet here we are for many of the same reasons.
> Even using the same slogans!
> 
> Don't blame those deservedly venerated journalist institutions-
> Instead look the the fx of decades of propaganda disguised as news
> on a purposefully (as in by design) undereducated population.
> 
> The Right Wing media is barely news-
> Conspiracy theories, lies, false innuendo etc.
> do not deserve to be considered in the same breath as actual news.
> Those papers (NYT WP etc) don't deserve blame for not forecasting that Our Nation moved back in time 80 years.
> 
> k


----------



## KEnK

Soundhound said:


> There is talk about encouraging Obama to appoint Garland to the supreme court before he leaves office, that the Senate has effectively waived their right to advice and consent by not holding hearings. It would ultimately have to be decided in court apparently. My thought is he should absolutely do this. The right wing has been very divisive, it's time for the other side to stand their ground. This would be a very good place to start.


Though I would personally welcome this "stance" (that's all it would be),
how do you think the Right would respond?
Do you advocate actual violent revolution?
Is that the way forward?
A serious question considering what's happening.

I will tell you honestly:
Before the election began, during the heyday of the Treasonous Tea Party,
if the people there would have wanted to form a "United States of Arizona and Texas".
I would have voted for that given the choice.
Now if I am met w/ a petition for California to cede, I would sign it and vote for that proposition.
It would not pass but I would vote that way nevertheless.

[Litigable content edited by moderator]

And I am by nature a peaceful person- who would seek common ground w/ anyone.
But these people- have become Enemies of Humanity.
Sorry mods-
If you find that sentiment too inflammatory delete away-
but I know there are many who feel exactly that at this time

k


----------



## Soundhound

I think the right would scream bloody murder and use it as firepower to act even more radically. But I think the center and left have been far too passive in the face of the right wing takeover for decades. Fight fire with fire, no more mr nice guy.

I'm not for violent revolution but I'm absolutely for active resistance. The protests in the streets are massive, characterized by the right wing as phoney of course, which is nonsense. They lie as a regular matter of course, there's nothing that can be done about that.

If California were to secede, I would actively support it and live in Venice by the sea happily for the rest of my days. Would miss NY though. My brother suggested the slogan be 'build a bridge': the blue states secede, east coast and west coast basically, and we fashion some way to make it easy to move between the two.






KEnK said:


> Though I would personally welcome this "stance" (that's all it would be),
> how do you think the Right would respond?
> Do you advocate actual violent revolution?
> Is that the way forward?
> A serious question considering what's happening.
> 
> I will tell you honestly:
> Before the election began, during the heyday of the Treasonous Tea Party,
> if the people there would have wanted to form a "United States of Arizona and Texas".
> I would have voted for that given the choice.
> Now if I am met w/ a petition for California to cede, I would sign it and vote for that proposition.
> It would not pass but I would vote that way nevertheless.
> 
> and I'll admit further- if someone were to "take out" Bannon, Limbaugh, Coulter etc-
> I would actually be glad-
> 
> And I am by nature a peaceful person- who would seek common ground w/ anyone.
> But these people- have become Enemies of Humanity.
> Sorry mods-
> If you find that sentiment too inflammatory delete away-
> but I know there are many who feel exactly that at this time
> 
> k


----------



## KEnK

Soundhound said:


> I think the right would scream bloody murder and use it as firepower to act even more radically. But I think the center and left have been far too passive in the face of the right wing takeover for decades. Fight fire with fire, no more mr nice guy.


The 2nd Amendment comes to mind-
The United Coasts of America.
So the Trailer Park Nation would literally become Flyover Country.
I'm reminding of Berlin having been in the DDR.

But this is all just fantasy.
Real world "remedies" need to happen.
How far can activism go when the Right systematically discredits/ignores more that half of the citizenry?

By nature the GOP gov will punish the Trailer Park Nation for it's acquiescence.
Just a question of what will happen in the next mid term election.
To me that seems to be the only hope (barring 2nd Amendment Remedies)


----------



## Soundhound

Of course it's fantasy, it won't happen. But active resistance can, and I hope will happen. Here's David Remnick saying it all much more eloquently than I ever could:

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/an-american-tragedy-2



KEnK said:


> The 2nd Amendment comes to mind-
> The United Coasts of America.
> So the Trailer Park Nation would literally become Flyover Country.
> I'm reminding of Berlin having been in the DDR.
> 
> But this is all just fantasy.
> Real world "remedies" need to happen.
> How far can activism go when the Right systematically discredits/ignores more that half of the citizenry?
> 
> By nature the GOP gov will punish the Trailer Park Nation for it's acquiescence.
> Just a question of what will happen in the next mid term election.
> To me that seems to be the only hope (barring 2nd Amendment Remedies)


----------



## KEnK

Soundhound said:


> Here's David Remnick saying it all much more eloquently than I ever could:
> 
> http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/an-american-tragedy-2


The article you linked to reads like a eulogy
2 quotes from it:

_Fascism is not our future—it cannot be; we cannot allow it to be so—but this is surely the way fascism can begin. _

Fascism is here right now. It will be sworn into office on Jan 20th

_To combat authoritarianism, to call out lies, to struggle honorably and fiercely in the name of American ideals—that is what is left to do. That is all there is to do._

How? Honestly how?
What will be effective?
Occupy the Capitol Bldg?
24/7 protests at the White House?

I don't see any benefit from or even possible with working inside the system.
Yes we have to insist that our congress people stop everything-
But that won't be enough.

Make no mistake
Fascism is here now- not in some distant nightmare future.


----------



## Soundhound

So what do we do, nothing?





KEnK said:


> The article you linked to reads like a eulogy
> 2 quotes from it:
> 
> _Fascism is not our future—it cannot be; we cannot allow it to be so—but this is surely the way fascism can begin. _
> 
> Fascism is here right now. It will be sworn into office on Jan 20th
> 
> _To combat authoritarianism, to call out lies, to struggle honorably and fiercely in the name of American ideals—that is what is left to do. That is all there is to do._
> 
> How? Honestly how?
> What will be effective?
> Occupy the Capitol Bldg?
> 24/7 protests at the White House?
> 
> I don't see any benefit from or even possible with working inside the system.
> Yes we have to insist that our congress people stop everything-
> But that won't be enough.
> 
> Make no mistake
> Fascism is here now- not in some distant nightmare future.


----------



## KEnK

Soundhound said:


> So what do we do, nothing?


Until the Democratic Members of the House and Senate speak w/ the forthright courage of Mr O'Riordain, we are doing "nothing".

There are courageous Congress People.
They will stand- but right now everybody seems shell shocked.

I don't advocate doing "nothing"- but what that "something" is I'm not sure of right now-
Maybe a lot of differing "somethings" is what will start happening.


----------



## Soundhound

That's where I am too. Looking for ideas, watching what's going on closely. 



KEnK said:


> Until the Democratic Members of the House and Senate speak w/ the forthright courage of Mr O'Riordain, we are doing "nothing".
> 
> There are courageous Congress People.
> They will stand- but right now everybody seems shell shocked.
> 
> I don't advocate doing "nothing"- but what that "something" is I'm not sure of right now-
> Maybe a lot of differing "somethings" is what will start happening.


----------



## NYC Composer

Hence "The Way Forward."

I'm looking for answers as well.


----------



## NYC Composer

On the other hand.

As I go through the stages of grief (or as Jimmy would probably have it, a lot of internal whining) I'm thinking that as parts of the country become openly Bannon-ized (looking at the little contretemps in West Virginia) I'm starting to think about a very long, open ended groundswell of resistance. Not as to the legitimacy of the election-maybe not even specifically at Trump-but to some of the openly warlike, suddenly enabled racists and weird media types that are about to take over.

Maybe it will have to be built on the bones of the Occupy movement. Maybe it has to include the Anti-Defamation League, the NAACP, the Southern Law Poverty center, every environmental group in the nation, every Bernie supporter. Maybe it needs to start where it starts and grow over time, become energized over time. I'm thinking this over.


----------



## JonFairhurst

Also include the ACLU as well as Christian organizations that are actually based on the philosophies of Jesus, as compared to the "evilgelicals" who use religion as an authoritarian tool.


----------



## Soundhound

Evangelicals, oy. They have been pushing for a theocracy forever, and once empowered by Reagan gained a lot of power. But they now own this. Backing Trump, their hypocrisy must be easy for everyone now to see. Except for hypocrites.


----------



## Michael K. Bain

JonFairhurst said:


> as well as Christian organizations that are actually based on the philosophies of Jesus


Yes, I agree with that. The Church as a body has to stand up against the Alt Right.


----------



## KEnK

Michael K. Bain said:


> The Church as a body has to stand up against the Alt Right.


Don't count on it.
"The Church" is a mixed bag like everything else.
The Pope spoke out against Trump (though not often or strongly enough)
Consider the political support (backing) given to Herr Trump,
the Evangelicals as a movement are now in pocket of The White Supremacist House.
I'm aware of a few students at "Falwell U." standing against Herr Trump's endless bile,
but the data shows how the Evangelical block voted.
They voted for Bigotry, Misogyny, Xenophobia, Fascism.
That's what Herr Trump campaigned on.
And please don't tell me it's Liberal Media spin- It's Herr Trump's own words.
Word's that I heard from his vile mouth for the entire campaign.


----------



## KEnK

Kind of a non sequitur here- but related to the topic-

I keep hearing people saying (including Obama Clinton many Dems)
"Give Trump a chance".

I've been waiting for someone to point out that 'Chamberlain gave Hitler a chance'.
That didn't work out to well, did it.

Wondering why no pundit has said that yet.

Herr Trump is clearly anti-American.
No.
No chance for Fascism is this Not So United States.
Raus!


----------



## Soundhound

Google is planning to no longer allow fake news sites to use their ad placement service. This could be great, if it works. Facebook is another story apparently, Zuckerberg has said he thinks 99% of the news people get on Facebook is real news. Thanks Mark, of you don't want to own the nightmare that is the Trump presidency, you need to change your tune and fast.


----------



## Michael K. Bain

KEnK said:


> Consider the political support (backing) given to Herr Trump,
> the Evangelicals as a movement are now in pocket of The White Supremacist House.
> I'm aware of a few students at "Falwell U." standing against Herr Trump's endless bile,
> but the data shows how the Evangelical block voted.


You read about Evangelicals. Do you spend time with any? I mean, people who really live their faith? I am surrounded by born again Christians all my life, I am immersed in it.
With the exception of 2, all the born again Christians I know are disgusted by Trump. Some did vote for Trump, but in the General election (not in the primaries) and only because they feared what would happen to the US if Hillary became president.


----------



## Sebastianmu

Michael K. Bain said:


> and only because they feared what would happen to the US if Hillary became president.


What exactly did they fear would happen?


----------



## KEnK

Michael K. Bain said:


> You read about Evangelicals. Do you spend time with any? I mean, people who really live their faith?


Yes. In-laws and other assorted relatives (which include Tea Party lunatics)
I'm pretty sure the data shows most Evangelicals voted for Herr Trump.
That's my only point. Voting data.


----------



## KEnK

Sebastianmu said:


> What exactly did they fear would happen?


One of my most beloved Aunts (very Catholic) told me that Obama was the Anti-Christ.
She really believed that.
I still love her and we're always very happy to see each other.
Maybe Hillary was actually Satan Herself, I don't know.
But the screaming chants of "Lock Her Up!" was all too close to "Burn The Witch!" for me.


----------



## Michael K. Bain

KEnK said:


> Yes. In-laws and other assorted relatives (which include Tea Party lunatics)
> I'm pretty sure the data shows most Evangelicals voted for Herr Trump.
> That's my only point. Voting data.


Well, to your "Don't count on it" statement, I will just say that I do count on it, because the born again evangelicals i know are that type of people. They are in the vein of William Wilburforce, the evangelical Christian who worked relentlessly and ended the slavery industry in England.
I am aware that many Christians have become complacent and comfortable with their lives. But the Church is defined in the Bible as the Body of Christ, all believers united under God. And that's what I'm counting on. Christians do rise up against bigotry and racism and will amp up their efforts as the Alt Right pushes their hatred more and more.


----------



## Michael K. Bain

Sebastianmu said:


> What exactly did they fear would happen?


If you followed the year leading up to the election, you know what. Whether you agree with their assessment is another thing, of course. But that has been hashed and rehashed, so I won't do it in this thread, which is about how to move forward. I only mentioned the fear in response.


----------



## Soundhound

The evangelicals were politicized by Reagan (don't know if they were before or not?) and used to sell right wing economics to the heartland, which completely screwed them over of course. 

Now they support Trump. What could be less christian than that? 

Aside from that, fundamentalism is fundamentalism whether it's religious fundamentalism, the reading of the bible or koran or anything as literal, or the preposterous 'originalist' constitutionalists. It's primitivism, the opposite of a curious mind. And it's incredibly dangerous.


----------



## KEnK

Michael K. Bain said:


> Christians do rise up against bigotry and racism and will amp up their efforts as the Alt Right pushes their hatred more and more.


Falwell? 
I believe the fact is the _Leaders of the Evangelical Political Movement_ endorsed Herr Trump.
How will you, as a member of an active Christian community "move that forward"?


----------



## JonFairhurst

Please don't be a bigot about Christianity. Yes, there are horrible "evilgelicals" and hell-worshipers. They suck. But there are also people who donate and volunteer for the needy and who speak out against the inhumane.

Though I am not religious, my wife was just appointed as the Peace and Justice Coordinator for the Pacific Northwest Conference of the United Methodist Church.

Here she is at Standing Rock earlier this month.


----------



## KEnK

JonFairhurst said:


> Please don't be a bigot about Christianity.


A very fair request Jon.
Actually I do live by that ideal in my day to day life-
I just resent and resist the imposition of other peoples will on me and mine-
That includes politics, religion, and even loud drive by sound systems.
I did try to make clear that I was talking about the Political Leadership of a religious movement,
rather than the religion itself.

But the people who voted for Herr Trump own all that is about to happen-
Whatever their misguided reasoning.


----------



## Soundhound

This is my position as well. I don't think I'm a bigot about christianity. I'm a bigot about intolerance, religious, political, anything. Intolerance is on the upswing here thanks to Trump, and the religious right has a deep and disturbing history of intolerance. I'll speak out about that and fight that every chance I get. 




KEnK said:


> A very fair request Jon.
> Actually I do live by that ideal in my day to day life-
> I just resent and resist the imposition of other peoples will on me and mine-
> That includes politics, religion, and even loud drive by sound systems.
> I did try to make clear that I was talking about the Political Leadership of a religious movement,
> rather than the religion itself.
> 
> But the people who voted for Herr Trump own all that is about to happen-
> Whatever their misguided reasoning.


----------



## Michael K. Bain

KEnK said:


> Falwell?
> I believe the fact is the _Leaders of the Evangelical Political Movement_ endorsed Herr Trump.
> How will you, as a member of an active Christian community "move that forward"?


In the same way I expect that you will, by speaking out against it.


----------



## Michael K. Bain

KEnK said:


> Falwell?
> I believe the fact is the _Leaders of the Evangelical Political Movement_ endorsed Herr Trump.


Some of them did. Many others spoke against his candidacy. In fact, 80 recently penned a letter condemning his campaign and racism. One of those was one of the heads of the Southern Baptist Convention.


----------



## Michael K. Bain

JonFairhurst said:


> Please don't be a bigot about Christianity. Yes, there are horrible "evilgelicals" and hell-worshipers. They suck. But there are also people who donate and volunteer for the needy and who speak out against the inhumane.
> Though I am not religious, my wife was just appointed as the Peace and Justice Coordinator for the Pacific Northwest Conference of the United Methodist Church.


Thank you, Jon. & Kudos to your wife for living her faith!


----------



## NYC Composer

When I read posts like the bunch since I last answered, it makes me hopeful about the future. Good people talking about a better country. Thank you for improving my day.


----------



## Michael K. Bain

NYC Composer said:


> When I read posts like the bunch since I last answered, it makes me hopeful about the future. Good people talking about a better country. Thank you for improving my day.


----------



## NYC Composer

Ha!


----------



## JonFairhurst




----------



## Hannes_F

Speaking as a private person:

Not resisting evil is indeed evil.

I just wished this resistance were done with overview, not blind. With differentiation of facts from fictions. Don't freak out. Be calm, effective and productive instead of destructive. Resist very distinctive if and where it is really necessary because human rights are breached, but not across the board against everthing or everybody that does not share your opinions.

I don't remember in which video I saw it but there were some recommendations about whom to support with money in this situation. Organisations that help minorities with lawsuits. Organisations that step up against discrimination. Perhaps we can collect a list here.


----------



## NYC Composer

I think that regardless of how much anyone dislikes it, DJT is the President.
So-

I'd like us to write an open letter to President Trump or start a petition asking him to disavow and strongly condemn the Klu Klux Klan and the American Nazi Party, both organizations who support him and think of him as their guy. If he can't relate to that on anything but a personal level, if he can't understand the horror that those hate groups engender in people of color in America, perhaps he can look at it from his Jewish daughter's and Jewish grandchildren's point of view.

I nominate Jon to write it.

Perhaps we could crowdfund the buying of space in newspapers, magazines or online.


----------



## NYC Composer

Hannes- good suggestions, but having talked to a bunch of people, I think the protest marches are mostly about a need to do something immediate, to stand up and say "I disagree with this direction for the country", and as long as they are peaceful, that's people's right as free Americans. It's not how I want to go about it, but I can't judge.


----------



## Soundhound

I agree there, but I think a list of organizations to donate to also is a good idea. Funding is going to be cut for a lot of things and people are going to be in need. Planned Parenthood, Salvation Army etc. I've seem some lists and will post. 

There have been some good videos done by Robert Reich about all this. He's proposing a peaceful resistance network, phrased it something like that. I'll find out more.

Participating in some way, whatever it is, whatever everybody can do, is the first step... this is going to be a long dark haul...


----------



## jcrosby

RE: Religious organization involvement:

If the past 30 years have shown us anything it's that the right have deliberately used religion as a tool to advance their agenda by pandering to the morals of their religious voters.

Also of note is that the religious right has chosen one religion as its focus, christianity. Do you see them pandering to jewish voters with the same intensity? Muslims? Forget about it, the most extreme anti-muslim rhetoric has been coming from the right. Religion has been the tool of choice used by the far right to recruit voters, but its been done through religious exclusion.

At some point you have to ask yourself what role does that religious exclusion play in tapping into the alt-right's monotheism... Time and again you see white nationalists, the KKK and neo-nazi groups waving one religious banner, christianity... It is the religion of choice for white supremacists.

Let me be clear, that has nothing to do with anyone's friends or relatives who are christian. There are plenty of fine christians in the world... It is merely an observation that historically religion is used as a vehicle to drive an ideology...

If christian organizations truly want to distance themselves from the hate rhetoric of the far right, and get involved locally or nationally, they need to get with the times and embrace women's issues, sexual diversity and choice. If not then the hard reality is they will only be contributing to social division.


----------



## NYC Composer

I think religion is a sidecar. Racial division and nativism are the drivers.


----------



## jcrosby

Soundhound said:


> I agree there, but I think a list of organizations to donate to also is a good idea. Funding is going to be cut for a lot of things and people are going to be in need. Planned Parenthood, Salvation Army etc. I've seem some lists and will post.
> 
> There have been some good videos done by Robert Reich about all this. He's proposing a peaceful resistance network, phrased it something like that. I'll find out more.
> 
> Participating in some way, whatever it is, whatever everybody can do, is the first step... this is going to be a long dark haul...



IMO this is the best vehicle currently available. Donate like crazy to organizations that have been driving change.

The people will continue to march, and it's a damn good thing. But there does need to be some organization. An organization everyone interested should consider looking into is Avaaz. They have 43 million supporters the world over, have been pretty darned effective in helping to drive climate issues, and have already put a ton of effort into moving against Trump.


----------



## jcrosby

NYC Composer said:


> I think religion is a sidecar. Racial division and nativism are the drivers.


I don't disagree at all... I think religion provides the belief system that's easily manipulated though, and is used to soften things in the media...


----------



## jcrosby

Anyway a list of organizations worth considering donating to, or getting actively involved with... 
Please add to it in hopes we compile a comprehensive list...

*Civil Liberties:*

ACLU
https://action.aclu.org/donate-aclu?redirect=donate/join-renew-give

SOUTHERN POVERTY LAW CENTER
https://www.splcenter.org

MEXICAN AMERICAN LEGAL DEFENSE FUND:
http://www.maldef.org/ways_to_donate/index.html

NAACP
http://www.naacp.org

*Gender and Sexuality:*

PLANNED PARENTHOOD
https://www.plannedparenthood.org

LAMBDA LEGAL DEFENSE AND EDUCATION FUND:
http://www.lambdalegal.org

*Community Outreach:*

AMERICAN RED CROSS:
https://www.redcross.org/donate/donation

HABITAT FOR HUMANITY
https://www.habitat.org/donate/

*Climate Change And Climate Action:*

EARTHWORKS:
https://www.earthworksaction.org/action

AVAAZ:
https://www.avaaz.org/page/en/

ENVIRONMENTAL DEFENSE FUND:
https://www.edf.org

NRDC
https://www.nrdc.org



*Resources and Watchlists (We need more of these, please grow this list):
*
SPLC Hate Watch:
https://www.splcenter.org/hate-map


----------



## Desire Inspires

What can I do to change the world? Nothing. Hit the snooze button and go back to bed. These things will sort themselves out. And if they don't, it won't matter either.


----------



## NYC Composer

Thanks for the inspiring post.


----------



## Soundhound

Thank you!



jcrosby said:


> Anyway a list of organizations worth considering donating to, or getting actively involved with...
> Please add to it in hopes we compile a comprehensive list...
> 
> *Civil Liberties:*
> 
> ACLU
> https://action.aclu.org/donate-aclu?redirect=donate/join-renew-give
> 
> SOUTHERN POVERTY LAW CENTER
> https://www.splcenter.org
> 
> MEXICAN AMERICAN LEGAL DEFENSE FUND:
> http://www.maldef.org/ways_to_donate/index.html
> 
> NAACP
> http://www.naacp.org
> 
> *Gender and Sexuality:*
> 
> PLANNED PARENTHOOD
> https://www.plannedparenthood.org
> 
> LAMBDA LEGAL DEFENSE AND EDUCATION FUND:
> http://www.lambdalegal.org
> 
> *Community Outreach:*
> 
> AMERICAN RED CROSS:
> https://www.redcross.org/donate/donation
> 
> HABITAT FOR HUMANITY
> https://www.habitat.org/donate/
> 
> *Climate Change And Climate Action:*
> 
> EARTHWORKS:
> https://www.earthworksaction.org/action
> 
> AVAAZ:
> https://www.avaaz.org/page/en/
> 
> ENVIRONMENTAL DEFENSE FUND:
> https://www.edf.org
> 
> NRDC
> https://www.nrdc.org
> 
> 
> 
> *Resources and Watchlists (We need more of these, please grow this list):
> *
> SPLC Hate Watch:
> https://www.splcenter.org/hate-map


----------



## Soundhound

Trump ran on hate. Steve Bannon's business is creating fear and hate. Just read this story from today:

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...rgument-brooklyn-restaurant-article-1.2873086


----------



## NYC Composer

Look, man-any dude who would punch a woman in the head about ANYTHING, let alone politics, has much bigger problems than Steve Bannon could create.


----------



## Soundhound

I see your point, and I don't. Trump ran on hate, and fired up this jerk. There are reports all over of this kind of thing going on. How is that not cause for concern and keeping tabs on this sort of thing. Obama in fact this morning addressed the problem.


----------



## NYC Composer

My point is that it was obviously done by someone totally off his rocker. There's a danger of weakening the argument if you, for example, take the African-American Dallas cop shooter as politically motivated. If that's the drill, I dunno. Doesn't strike me as a good plan.

What SHOULD happen, in my view, is that the head puncher should be found, arrested, charged with assault and reviled. If alt-right groups come to his defense, that should be addressed in the strongest terms.


----------



## Soundhound

Again, not sure. Are you saying calling out this kind of this is scaremongering or cherrypicking? This case in isolation, sure, the guy is an asshole, but he's an asshole fueled by the president elect. Trump's tone is already moving away from a few days of being conciliatory. Is his moving Steve Bannon into the white house just a sop to the far right and he'll become more moderate? I doubt it.

Did you see his post today about not winning the popular vote? He said if there were no electoral college he would have campaigned hard in New York and California and won even bigger. This is the president of the United States, childish, vindictive, arrogant, angry, short tempered. And people follow leaders.

Many have called for him to come out and denounce this behavior, and the closest he's come as far as I know is a throwaway line when pressed repeatedly by Leslie Stahl. I'm all for giving him a chance, but at the same time that does not mean normalizing this kind of behavior.


----------



## NYC Composer

There are a few ways of looking at this. I'm not saying yours is wrong. I'm saying I disagree with reflexively blaming any incident of racism or violence on Trump, for the reasons I stated.

I have a feeling my stance on a lot of things may change over time, but what I said is what I think for the moment.
"Fueled by the President-elect"-well, I suppose the Dallas shooter was "fueled by BLM", but people don't usually cross the line into violent criminal behavior unless they're criminals or batshit crazy. That said, I absolutely feel these incidents should be called out, and loudly, but I felt that way before Trump was elected.

We'll see. There's no question in my mind he should condemn this sort of incident in the strongest possible terms.


----------



## Soundhound

We're saying the same thing to a large degree. Where we might differ is I'm more willing to see this as both a symptom and a warning sign.


----------



## NYC Composer

Oh, I dunno-I see both. I suppose we disagree on how to address it, but like I said, for me it's a moving target at present.

The larger question is-how much do "we" become more like "them" to win this war? It's a question I'm really struggling with.


----------



## Soundhound

I feel like the dems have been here before many times. This is more extreme though, Steve Bannon is in the white house, and Donald Trump. I think these people are so radical, "we" don't have to be like "them" in twisting the truth, fearmongering, etc. But I think it is time to fight fire with fire. Don't agree to any radical supreme court justices, if that means four years of an 8 justice court, fine. Obstruct as much as possible radical and dangerous policies. 

At the same time, don't be like them in being ideologues. If they come up with good ideas, support them, work with them. But the mr nice guy stuff doesn't get anywhere with these people.


----------



## NYC Composer

It appears to me that the new paradigm is an Internet disinformation war, which is an amazingly weird state of dumbness, but apparently whoever is best at it has the winning strategy. Is this how political wars are to be fought from here on?


----------



## Michael K. Bain

NYC Composer said:


> It appears to me that the new paradigm is an Internet disinformation war, which is an amazingly weird state of dumbness, but apparently whoever is best at it has the winning strategy. Is this how political wars are to be fought from here on?


This ain't the dawning of the Age of Aquarius, I can tell you that.


----------



## Soundhound

Google apparentlyis going to ban fake news sites from being able to get ad revenue from the google service. Seems like a grea idea that's how these operations fund themselves, aside from the Koch brothers etc 



NYC Composer said:


> It appears to me that the new paradigm is an Internet disinformation war, which is an amazingly weird state of dumbness, but apparently whoever is best at it has the winning strategy. Is this how political wars are to be fought from here on?


----------



## jcrosby

So I just had an idea of one strategy to move forward. Granted I have no clue how this idea even gets off the ground, but sharing ideas can lead to the spreading ideas, pooling of resources, and who knows, maybe someone here knows a guy who knows a guy 

Right! So it's official that Clinton won the popular vote by over a million votes, a few states are still untallied and some are projecting as high as 2,000,000. That's an undeniable margin.

So the theory is this... 

A campaign where each voter in states where the electoral college came into play email all sate representatives stating something along the lines that:* 

As a voter and resident it is my duty to hearby inform you and your constituants that you will be losing my vote in the next election if you and your constituants do not consider re-assessing Clinton's win of the popular vote and re-thinking your electoral college delegation.*

It's zany, it's cooky and I'm sure it sounds like a pipe dream... it does even to me as I write it... 

That being said we are the electorate. With enough statewide pressure politicians have been forced to roll back bills, decisions and policies, and as far as I understand it the electoral college doesn't meet until mid December.

Again, it's zany, it's cooky... But everything starts with an idea... I'm planting the seed to see what other think...


----------



## NYC Composer

Michael K. Bain said:


> This ain't the dawning of the Age of Aquarius, I can tell you that.


Ok, so to win the next election, should we post how Putin and Trump had secret meetings in which the dined on small children, de-flowered underaged Christian virgins and plotted with alien creatures on another planet to plug the entire human race into a vast energy sucking computer network?

Or should we make some stuff up?


----------



## Michael K. Bain

NYC Composer said:


> Ok, so to win the next election, should we post how Putin and Trump had secret meetings in which the dined on small children, de-flowered underaged Christian virgins and plotted with alien creatures on another planet to plug the entire human race into a vast energy sucking computer network?
> 
> Or should we make some stuff up?


----------



## KEnK

jcrosby said:


> So I just had an idea of one strategy to move forward. Granted I have no clue how this idea even gets off the ground,


This petition was sent to me by a friend (and musician) who was also a "manager" of my local polling station. The idea is "off the ground", unlikely though it may be.

https://www.change.org/p/electoral-...make-hillary-clinton-president-on-december-19


----------



## jcrosby

KEnK said:


> This petition was sent to me by a friend (and musician) who was also a "manager" of my local polling station. The idea is "off the ground", unlikely though it may be.
> 
> https://www.change.org/p/electoral-...make-hillary-clinton-president-on-december-19



Hey, at this point I'll take anything! Anything's worth a shot.... Thanks!


----------



## jcrosby

Video below of Rachel Maddow interviewing Anthony Romero, Executive Director of the ACLU who penned the letter in the segment below. Intense and inspiring to say the least! 

It appears they're gearing up for a major legal battle with the Trump administration.

I highly encourage everyone to donate and sign on as members of the ACLU stat. If you can't donate but these issues matter to you please at least sign up... Membership numbers are equally important as voices against the administration...


----------



## NYC Composer

Good plan, j. Gonna do it.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Joined.

This is the time to act.


----------



## Guy Bacos

I imagine this is only valid for US citizen? 

Nevermind. Done.


----------



## benmrx

NYC Composer said:


> Ok, so to win the next election, should we post how Putin and Trump had secret meetings in which the dined on small children, de-flowered underaged Christian virgins and plotted with alien creatures on another planet to plug the entire human race into a vast energy sucking computer network?
> 
> Or should we make some stuff up?



Ummm. Apparently make stuff up. It worked for Trump. All that matters is that you say it first, and you say it LOUDEST. By the time people come back to fact check everyone has already moved on.


----------



## NYC Composer

God I'm old. We've been members for years, will just be increasing yearly check, also to Brady Center.


----------



## chimuelo

I don't suppose anybody asked Hillary if she wants to lose again did they?

Evangelicals got nothing on you Liberal Theologists.


----------



## NYC Composer

Nice plan for speaking to topic, Jim.

So you know Hannes is on a mission. What's your plan, make one sneering post, get timed out, wait, make another?

I would really value your non-jerk input.


----------



## chimuelo

Laughing at this new way forward is now a reason to be banned?
Pelosi, Reid, the Clinton's....
They're gone.
An authentic way forward is to not cause more Democrat defections with false hope born from Hysteria.

There's only 5 seats up for grabs in the 2018 GOP Senate.
25 seats up for Dems.

I can already see re runs of riots, break downs on YouTube, etc.
These little fundraising ploys give hope to the wounded, but will fail.

They will succeed in reminding real Democrats why their party keeps killing itself.

The way forward with Keith Ellison is incredibly desperate too.

I'd like to have a few Liberals left just to remind us of why they're not needed.

I do admire yuze guys.
Your like the Knight in Monty Python.
Hopping on 1 leg, no arms, not even a sword.....


----------



## Soundhound

Jimmy's back, and the level of discourse drops like rock.

Trump apparently is moving ahead with plans for a registry of muslims, and building a wall on the mexican border. The son in law, who apparently has been in charge of the day to day, is going to do the same in the administration.

The campaign apparently was not all talk. Holy crap.


----------



## NYC Composer

Sorry, you prolly misread- I said your NON jerk input.

I don't care much about what you DONT think the way forward is, or at least not how you express it. I am interested in the way you DO.


----------



## KEnK

Chim-

I used to think you were apolitical, but after this thread I can't tell if
you're a genuine nihilist of just having fun gloating & baiting your loser friends.

But a couple serious q's-
You're really down on "Liberals" but don't say much about the opposing viewpoint.

General philosophical q:
We don't actually live in a Democracy (not sure if we ever did)
but- Do you not see "Democracy" as a "Liberal" idea?
(This meaning compared to systems that preceded the Jeffersonian model we pretend towards.)

If you are a Trump supporter:
Did you get a sense of any workable policy from the campaign?
Economic, World/Political, Security, etc.
Do you actually think Trumps ideas are a good idea for the formerly working class who voted for him?

or is it just fuck shit up?

I'd really like to engage in respectful exchange of ideas w/ a Trump supporter.
Can't actually tell if that's you or not

k


----------



## NYC Composer

Jimmy said he voted for HRC.


----------



## KEnK

Missed that.
hmmm...
Why the hostility then?
Futility?
Nihilism?
Time to roll over and play dead I guess


----------



## NYC Composer

Jimmy's a complicated guy. I admire his intellect, but I'm tired of his provocations. He would be really helpful in this discussion, which I continue to invite him to be, but if it's to be about "you clueless liberals", fuck it. That's not smart nor helpful, just self indulgent.


----------



## KEnK

NYC Composer said:


> Jimmy's a complicated guy. I admire his intellect


Yes- I've always been a fan of his wit


----------



## Soundhound

Trump is filling his appointments with racists. Jeff Sessions. I'd say way to build bridges but I don't think he gives a rat's ass about any of that. This is his playroom now and he'll do whatever the hell he wants to.


----------



## NYC Composer

I had the weirdest dream last night-I dreamt that America has elected Donald Trump president.


----------



## Baron Greuner

NYC Composer said:


> I had the weirdest dream last night-I dreamt that America has elected Donald Trump president.



Had a God awful nightmare at the same time. I dreamt Hillary Clinton had.


----------



## Soundhound

The entire world seems to be having the same nightmare. It's amazing how uniform the reaction is, sadness and concern for those opposed, anger and self righteous indignation for those in support of Trump. 

The hope is this is the last throes of the old guard, the entitled, racist, white know nothings. And not a return to 1932. Fingers crossed.



NYC Composer said:


> I had the weirdest dream last night-I dreamt that America has elected Donald Trump president.


----------



## Soundhound

This is great, thanks. Signing up now. 



jcrosby said:


> Video below of Rachel Maddow interviewing Anthony Romero, Executive Director of the ACLU who penned the letter in the segment below. Intense and inspiring to say the least!
> 
> It appears they're gearing up for a major legal battle with the Trump administration.
> 
> I highly encourage everyone to donate and sign on as members of the ACLU stat. If you can't donate but these issues matter to you please at least sign up... Membership numbers are equally important as voices against the administration...


----------



## chimuelo

Bernie says Trump will be his allie if more Corporations stop moving production to Mexico.
Ford decided to keep Lincoln SUV Plant in Louisville, KY.
That's great news and he hasn't even started his job.

1 Trillion dollar Oil field in Texas is going to be tapped into. Pumps only no fracking. Seems the old West Texas field refilled itself naturally over the last 75 years.

Stocks top 18,500, Gold dropped 110 bucks.
December 19th Hillary wins, Saudi Arabia Qatar cheer, stocks drop 1000s of points.
Liberals cheer since they don't know what stocks are.....


----------



## Michael K. Bain

NYC Composer said:


> I had the weirdest dream last night-I dreamt that America has elected Donald Trump president.


I dreamed that America was faced with electing one of the two worst candidates in history, so I turned to food for comfort: in this case, a big fat marshmallow. Then I woke up to find not only had I eaten my pillow, I was halfway through my mattress.


----------



## Soundhound

Our stock broker wants to get us out of tech and into "things that would break your foot if dropped on it". They're salesman of course, go where the wind blows. But I'm not selling our Google stock since they say they're going to try and choke off ad revenue for fake news sites.

Without fake news influencing so many, I don't think Trump would have been elected. Fear mongering and disinformation allowed this ignorant, greedy, irrational boor to be drawn as a populist, Obama's presidency a failure, while Hillary Clinton was essentially turned into a criminal. It's all patent nonsense of course, and shows what a powerfully divisive tool social media can be. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/18/t...nn_20161118&nl=morning-briefing&nlid=15616649



chimuelo said:


> Liberals cheer since they don't know what stocks are.....


----------



## JonFairhurst

I just saw a tweet from an alt-right misinformation guy that attacked Snopes as the most biased of all mainstream media sites. Ugh.

BTW, Bannon's real title is "Minister of Propaganda." But "Strategy" is a more politically correct word.


----------



## NYC Composer

Jeff Sessions, Attorney General.

Thank god he's not a racist, because then us liberal progressives would have to call him a racist, and we've been told that's a bad word and we're not allowed to ever, ever use it again.

I call bullshit. That is one racist fuckhead.


----------



## Soundhound

He's awful, and always has been. Was rejected by the senate for a judgeship because he's such a racist. Sessions, Bannon, Michael Flynn, Mike Pence. Bigots, racists, xenophobes, warmongers running the government. This is truly frightening.


----------



## NYC Composer

I guess with the appointment of Sessions, President Trump has clarified matters.


----------



## Soundhound

He's making good on his campaign promises. This is a full throated right wing coup.


----------



## NYC Composer

Baron Greuner said:


> Had a God awful nightmare at the same time. I dreamt Hillary Clinton had.


How fortunate you were to awaken and find your nightmare to merely be a bad dream. Mine is a waking reality.

Fortunately for me, I have always tended to defeat the monsters in my dreams.


----------



## jcrosby

TO


Soundhound said:


> He's making good on his campaign promises. This is a full throated right wing coup.


It sure as hell looks like it. It's gonna be a dark four years no doubt... 
I do believe that the Republicans are ultimately hanging themselves by getting behind him though. Time will tell...

Btw this has been my favorite new stop to get really fired up and stay vigilant.


----------



## Soundhound

Thanks for posting. Go Keith. His rants about the Iraq invasion were great. It's been a while, but I'll be watching him now again.


----------



## dtcomposer

NYC Composer said:


> Jeff Sessions, Attorney General.
> 
> Thank god he's not a racist, because then us liberal progressives would have to call him a racist, and we've been told that's a bad word and we're not allowed to ever, ever use it again.
> 
> I call bullshit. That is one racist fuckhead.



This is a disappointing take on this for me. It seems we've already devolved back into tribalism. It's a huge thing to label somebody as a racist without very solid proof. The fact that you would then try to spin a larger narrative that all the peoples complaints about being labeled as racists are somehow invalidated is even more troubling. I hope you can see how intellectually dishonest this is, and this is from the perspective of a left-leaning non-Trump voter who realizes that there are racial issues alive and well in America.

I don't mean to call out one comment of yours because I've been reading this thread and there has been much worse done on both sides in this thread. I would ask not to give in to this kind of easy tribalism. Let's disagree with Sessions because of his outdated view of drugs, and his overly conservative views on others, but once we start labeling people as racists there isn't any more room to have civil debate. I see left leaning folks make this mistake again and again. 

Inflammatory rhetoric is the enemy. Please go look through the sources with an open mind. I'm not saying that he hasn't said racially insensitive things, or that there aren't accusations of racism, but accusations are not proof. Jokes minimizing something (probably intentionally) are standard for comedians, but probably unfit for a public servant. I truly believe in thinking the best of peoples intentions unless the evidence is damning.

I've grown up around very conservative people, I've lived with very liberal people, and I've known all the points in between. I would say that each side has a pretty unfair view of the other. This is exacerbated by complicit media who stir up these feelings in order to generate interest. Both sides are overwhelmingly good people who just have different ideas about how government should function. I always see people agree with this sentiment, but then are far too quick to demonize in a specific situation (whatever the current one is). 

Ok off my soap box. Hoping this doesn't sound too self-righteous. It could apply to many posts in this thread, and many that I've penned in the past. I'm trying to change because I think this is the most important topic in American political life. To me, the only way forward is that we have to start talking to each other and not past each other.


----------



## NYC Composer

I totally and completely agree that the knee jerk calling out of people as racists degrades the conversation. I also believe that not calling an actual racist a racist is exactly how racism gets institutionalized and normalized. Donald Trump has aligned himself with racists, but I can't say with certainty that he is personally a racist. Jeff Sessions is, in my view a racist, and to not name a thing a thing is to pretend that the elephant in the room is really a coffee table. I can give you chapter and verse about why I think Sessions is racist and we could argue about that, but the idea that we can't talk about issues of race because the political climate has shifted is something I don't accept. I believe the opposite is true. Also, though I might be the biggest promulgater of civil discourse on this forum, I see nothing uncivil about expressing strong opinions about elected public figures.

Feel free to call me out anytime, DT. Sometimes I'm wrong. Rarely, but still.


----------



## dtcomposer

NYC Composer said:


> I totally and completely agree that the knee jerk calling out of people as racists degrades the conversation. I also believe that not calling an actual racist a racist is exactly how racism gets institutionalized and normalized. Donald Trump has aligned himself with racists, but I can't say with certainty that he is personally a racist. Jeff Sessions is, in my view a racist, and to not name a thing a thing is to pretend that the elephant in the room is really a coffee table. I can give you chapter and verse about why I think Sessions is racist and we could argue about that, but the idea that we can't talk about issues of race because the political climate has shifted is something I don't accept. I believe the opposite is true. Also, though I might be the biggest promulgater of civil discourse on this forum, I see nothing uncivil about expressing strong opinions about elected public figures.
> 
> Feel free to call me out anytime, DT. Sometimes I'm wrong. Rarely, but still.



Haha thanks. I generally enjoy your posts in this thread and elsewhere. I think we can talk about race if we are careful not to use the nuclear options if we can avoid it. I can express my dismay of an opponents views on race relations without calling them (or thinking that they are) racists in almost every case. I don't know maybe it is because I've been around people who think like Sessions for a large part of my life so I understand their perspective, even if I disagree with much of it.
I think Session could be a racist, but people who hold his stated views (the ones he says he holds, not the ones people think he holds in private) aren't racists. So I think by calling him out without sure proof, you risk alienating people who hold similar political views. To me that's why even when criticizing politicians I think it does no service to exaggerate if there is another option. I think there is a term besides racist for someone like Sessions. A term that allows for more constructive dialogue with people who might see themselves as similar politically.

I want to hold myself to the highest possible burden of proof before using that label from both a practical and intellectual perspective. I'm going to give their views enough respect to look at them in a nuanced way before condemning. I'm going to read multiple sources from each side of an argument, and look for their strongest defenses instead of the weakest, or easiest to tear down, or the one that agrees with my bias. Even if it is just to understand how a good person could believe something so differently than me, it is worth it, and humanizes them like if we were having a face to face conversation between friends

The last thing is that I always try to keep some objectivity so that I don't have to be tied in to an ideological viewpoint. If new evidence comes up I don't want to have to backtrack, or (worse) defend an untruth.


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## NYC Composer

Umm-so DT- how 'bout this "Jeff Sessions is race-challenged."


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## KEnK

dtcomposer said:


> Inflammatory rhetoric is the enemy. Please go look through the sources with an open mind.


Does this include the bile that came directly out of Trump's mouth for the last 2 years?
The Klan is in the White House.
No need for media spin to be aware of that fact.

I have personally talked one on one to neo-Nazis- just to learn about them.
Calmly and respectfully, if you can believe that.
Wake up


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## dtcomposer

KEnK said:


> Does this include the bile that came directly out of Trump's mouth for the last 2 years?
> The Klan is in the White House.
> No need for media spin to be aware of that fact.
> 
> I have personally talked one on one to neo-Nazis- just to learn about them.
> Calmly and respectfully, if you can believe that.
> Wake up


Yeah of course it does. Inflammatory rhetoric on both sides is the enemy. We are so quick to just point to the other side and say "but they are doing it!". I don't need to tell you that one anecdote does not mean that you understand how the whole other side of an argument thinks. That is blatantly unscientific, as I'm sure you would agree. 

I really am glad that you have sat down and talked to a Klan member. I wasn't really referring to avowed white nationalists in my comments. I'm sure some of them are reachable, but probably not worth the effort outside of individual circumstances. I was referring to good people who aren't racists, but have differing philosophies that you believe work counter to the interests of minorities. 

Please read what I'm saying carefully or we'll just go back and forth telling eachother to wake up. I'm awake and trying to have a reasoned discussion without the emotion and hyperbole. Thanks.


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## dtcomposer

NYC Composer said:


> Umm-so DT- how 'bout this "Jeff Sessions is race-challenged."


haha. That is better even though I think you are poking fun. But, maybe he just needs some more race awareness in certain areas. Or to be more precise, the political views that he promotes need some more racial awareness at times, just as some of the views from the liberal side need some perspective as well. Now the details of all that are more murky, and can't easily be distilled into a sentence, or short label. It shouldn't matter who "wins" other than that people are protected. Some of that might be "racism" and some might just be differing political thoughts.

The thing about most political thought is that it is very difficult to prove what is the right thing. There are an enormous amount of variables, and pitfalls with any political suggestion.


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## Soundhound

Why do we always bend over backwards to make allowances for gradients of racism, misogyny, homophobia and xenophobia? I don't get it. Here's a very nice articulation of exactly how I feel.


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## NYC Composer

Dt- you're right, I was poking fun. A little 

On the other hand, your posts are thoughtful, and whether I agree or disagree, I appreciate your input. Cheers.


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## KEnK

dtcomposer said:


> one anecdote does not mean that you understand how the whole other side of an argument thinks.


There is a deeply entrenched pattern here- obvious to everyone not inside the "Right Bubble".
I have Tea Party lunatic family members who I've talked w/ a great length.
People are saying "give him a chance" or variations there-of.

I've "listened/observed" plenty-
and I don't understand or empathize w/ the Right mind set of vile hatred that I've been listening to for years.

Enough-
No Chance to an unprecedented Fascist version of the USA.

I hear "these people" Goosestepping all over the Constitution right now.
It's not going to get better or go away w/ understanding & patience.

So you can try to understand them. I'm pretty sure I already do.


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## Soundhound

I second this! 



NYC Composer said:


> Dt- you're right, I was poking fun. A little
> 
> On the other hand, your posts are thoughtful, and whether I agree or disagree, I appreciate your input. Cheers.


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## jcrosby

Jeff Sessions sure seems sexist, homophobic, mysogynistic and racist based on his voting record:




http://www.ontheissues.org//Domestic/Jeff_Sessions_Civil_Rights.htm

*Voted NO on adding sexual orientation to definition of hate crimes.*

Motion to Invoke Cloture on S. 625; Local Law Enforcement Enhancement Act of 2001. The bill would expand the definition of hate crimes to incorporate acts committed because of a victim's sex, sexual orientation or disability and permit the federal government to help states prosecute hate crimes even if no federally protected action was implicated. If the cloture motion is agreed to, debate will be limited and a vote will occur. If the cloture motion is rejected debate could continue indefinitely and instead the bill is usually set aside. Hence a Yes vote supports the expansion of the definition of hate crimes, and a No vote keeps the existing definition. Three-fifths of the Senate, or 60 members, is required to invoke cloture.
Reference: Bill S.625 ; vote number 2002-147 on Jun 11, 2002

*Voted NO on expanding hate crimes to include sexual orientation.*

Vote on an amendment that would expand the definition of hate crimes to include gender, sexual orientation and disability. The previous definition included only racial, religious or ethnic bias.
Reference: Bill S.2549 ; vote number 2000-136 on Jun 20, 2000

*Voted YES on ending special funding for minority & women-owned business.*

This legislation would have abolished a program that helps businesses owned by women or minorities compete for federally funded transportation.
Status: Cloture Motion Rejected Y)48; N)52Reference: Motion to invoke cloture; Bill S.1173 ; vote number 1997-275 on Oct 23, 1997

*Rated 20% by the ACLU, indicating an anti-civil rights voting record.*

Sessions scores 20% by the ACLU on civil rights issues



The mission of the ACLU is to preserve protections and guarantees America’s original civic values - the Constitution and the Bill of Rights:
Your First Amendment rights-freedom of speech, association and assembly. Freedom of the press, and freedom of religion supported by the strict separation of church and state.
Your right to equal protection under the law - equal treatment regardless of race, sex, religion or national origin.
Your right to due process - fair treatment by the government whenever the loss of your liberty or property is at stake.Your right to privacy - freedom from unwarranted government intrusion into your personal and private affairs.
We work also to extend rights to segments of our population that have traditionally been denied their rights, including Native Americans and other people of color; lesbians, gay men, bisexuals and transgendered people; women; mental-health patients; prisoners; people with disabilities; and the poor. If the rights of society’s most vulnerable members are denied, everybody’s rights are imperiled.
Our ratings are based on the votes the organization considered most important; the numbers reflect the percentage of time the representative voted the organization's preferred position.

Source: ACLU website 02n-ACLU on Dec 31, 2002

HRC, *indicating an anti-gay-rights stance*.

*Sessions scores 0% by the HRC on gay rights 

OnTheIssues.org interprets the 2005-2006 HRC scores as follows: *

0% - 20%: opposes gay rights (approx. 207 members)
20% - 70%: mixed record on gay rights (approx. 84 members)
70%-100%: supports gay rights (approx. 177 members)
*About the HRC (from their website, www.hrc.org): *
The Human Rights Campaign represents a grassroots force of more than 700,000 members and supporters nationwide. As the largest national gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender civil rights organization, HRC envisions an America where GLBT people are ensured of their basic equal rights, and can be open, honest and safe at home, at work and in the community.

Ever since its founding in 1980, HRC has led the way in promoting fairness for GLBT Americans. HRC is a bipartisan organization that works to advance equality based on sexual orientation and gender expression and identity.

Source: HRC website 06n-HRC on Dec 31, 2006
NAACP,* indicating an anti-affirmative-action stance.

Sessions scores 7% by the NAACP on affirmative action 

OnTheIssues.org interprets the 2005-2006 NAACP scores as follows: *

0% - 33%: anti-affirmative-action stance (approx. 177 members)
34% - 84%: mixed record on affirmative-action (approx. 96 members)
85%-100%: pro-affirmative-action stance (approx. 190 members)
*About the NAACP (from their website, www.naacp.org): *
The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) has worked over the years to support and promote our country's civil rights agenda. Since its founding in 1909, the NAACP has worked tirelessly to end racial discrimination while also ensuring the political, social, and economic equality of all people. The Association will continue this mission through its policy initiatives and advocacy programs at the local, state, and national levels. From the ballot box to the classroom, the dedicated workers, organizers, and leaders who forged this great organization and maintain its status as a champion of social justice, fought long and hard to ensure that the voices of African Americans would be heard. For nearly one hundred years, it has been the talent and tenacity of NAACP members that has saved lives and changed many negative aspects of American society.


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## NYC Composer

So, not race-friendly.


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## Soundhound

Well done, Jcrosby.


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## dtcomposer

It is really hard to get people to think outside of the way that they are comfortable. The thing that some/many liberals seem to not understand is that in almost all of these instances you can be against legislation for many of these issues because of reasons like thinking it is a government overreach, not agreeing in principal that there is a need for affirmative action or those types of legislation, or not seeing the need to add extra laws when there are already laws against bullying, assault etc. That doesn't make you a sexist or a racist. It might make you wrong about some of this stuff, but using the arguments I see above as a litmus test for not being homophobic, racist etc is, I think, inaccurate, and misleading. Now, if they are against these things because they are sexist or racist then that is a different issue altogether.

Except maybe in the case of gay marriage, which I think is clearly just an issue of wanting to legislate morality, there are rational non-racist/sexist reasons to oppose many of those measures. To pretend there aren't compelling logical arguments, even if you don't agree with them is not realistic in my opinion. Now I might think that the liberal argument is stronger, but I'm not sure of it enough to take a hardline stance and judge someone who disagrees, and I don't think the proof is even possible to obtain on some of these questions.

Abortion is a great issue where the science is undecided and there are very strong arguments on both sides outside of "baby killers vs religious nuts". Yet many on both sides pretend like their answer is the obvious and only answer without having all the facts, and indeed demonize the others as misogynistic, murderers etc. Again, I hate having to consistently defend somebody that I wouldn't choose for the position, but we really need to get our definitions straight here.

If we can at least accept that people can agree about things like jcrosby has posted without being "ists" then I think we are on the right path. That is what people on the right are upset about exactly. This was a great example of exactly what I was trying to show.


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## Soundhound

I wanted to see Hamilton before, but now I have to see it. The more noise we make about this dangerous radical right wing government, in all ways, the better.


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## dtcomposer

Soundhound said:


> I wanted to see Hamilton before, but now I have to see it. The more noise we make about this dangerous radical right wing government, in all ways, the better.



I think the Hamilton thing shows my main worry with Trump. He has a hard time taking criticism, and doesn't seem to have a good grasp of a logical free speech policy. His staff must take away his twitter account once in office. What happens the first time an opposing leader insults him? I'm hoping that when it concerns business he has a thicker skin and is a more shrewd negotiator than he seems when he pops off on twitter.


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## NYC Composer

dtcomposer said:


> It is really hard to get people to think outside of the way that they are comfortable. The thing that some/many liberals seem to not understand is that in almost all of these instances you can be against legislation for many of these issues because of reasons like thinking it is a government overreach, not agreeing in principal that there is a need for affirmative action or those types of legislation, or not seeing the need to add extra laws when there are already laws against bullying, assault etc. That doesn't make you a sexist or a racist. It might make you wrong about some of this stuff, but using the arguments I see above as a litmus test for not being homophobic, racist etc is, I think, inaccurate, and misleading. Now, if they are against these things because they are sexist or racist then that is a different issue altogether.
> 
> Except maybe in the case of gay marriage, which I think is clearly just an issue of wanting to legislate morality, there are rational non-racist/sexist reasons to oppose many of those measures. To pretend there aren't compelling logical arguments, even if you don't agree with them is not realistic in my opinion. Now I might think that the liberal argument is stronger, but I'm not sure of it enough to take a hardline stance and judge someone who disagrees, and I don't think the proof is even possible to obtain on some of these questions.
> 
> Abortion is a great issue where the science is undecided and there are very strong arguments on both sides outside of "baby killers vs religious nuts". Yet many on both sides pretend like their answer is the obvious and only answer without having all the facts, and indeed demonize the others as misogynistic, murderers etc. Again, I hate having to consistently defend somebody that I wouldn't choose for the position, but we really need to get our definitions straight here.
> 
> If we can at least accept that people can agree about things like jcrosby has posted without being "ists" then I think we are on the right path. That is what people on the right are upset about exactly. This was a great example of exactly what I was trying to show.



"there are rational non-racist/sexist reasons to oppose many of those measures"

DT-in my opinion, if your reasonable acceptance of the idea that "racist stances don't someone a racist" had been a consistent policy throughout American history, the Federal government would still be allowing states to decide whether they wanted to accept slavery or not, and those that decided to keep slavery would not be racist, they would simply be voting for their rational economic interests, because a case could be made that those who favored slavery had a rational argument.

Social progress is rarely accepted by all. People in power often get to define "morality" when they are in power. No kidding-do we really need to parse words to the point of saying "not race positive", to go back to my earlier jocular (but not completely) suggestion?

When my parents were working for civil rights back in the 60s equal housing wasn't law, so landlords could choose not to rent to a person of color (or of a different religion, or really anyone.) I'd guess Jefferson Beauregard Sessions believes the law that tells a landowner what he/she can do with their land is unjust. However, I don't. At some point, what is reasonable to you will be unreasonable to me.

So, okay. Jeff Sessions is not a racist. He's just not race friendly or sex friendly by the standards of those who think his line of thinking hinders social progress. Your mileage may vary.

Have you ever been on the website "Stormfront"? White supremacists are actually quite convinced that a rational argument can be made for their way of thinking. Really, who doesn't think they're rational?


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## Soundhound

Absolutely. Obama was absolutely right, Trump is not fit to be president. He is a clear and present danger. I can't imagine him lasting four years, I think he'll Sarah Palin his way out of it somehow. The problem is we'll then have Mike Pence, a religious bigot, a true believer, as President. It's out of the frying pan and into the fire.



dtcomposer said:


> I think the Hamilton thing shows my main worry with Trump. He has a hard time taking criticism, and doesn't seem to have a good grasp of a logical free speech policy. His staff must take away his twitter account once in office. What happens the first time an opposing leader insults him? I'm hoping that when it concerns business he has a thicker skin and is a more shrewd negotiator than he seems when he pops off on twitter.


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## KEnK

dtcomposer said:


> It is really hard to get people to think outside of the way that they are comfortable. The thing that some/many liberals seem to not understand is...


dt- If you had written that on Nov 6th I _might_ have agreed w/ you.
But look at the cabinet Trump is forming.
Those lunatics may very well provoke N.Korea into nuking Seoul or Tokyo.
To late for pleasant philosophizing about who decides what's right or wrong.
The time for business as usual is over.
The threat this demagogue poses goes way beyond the civil liberties of American Citizens.


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## Soundhound

Jeff Sessions is racist. He's been relegated to being a back bencher throughout his career in washington because of his old boy racist stances. He is part of the machinery that allows for voter suppression in the south. Which is of course racist, the people who participate and allow for this widespread practice should be brought up on charges. When Reagan nominated Sessions for a judgeship it was outrageous, an affront to the fight for equality, and it was the first of any of Reagan's judiciary appointees, in five of his presidency to be turned down. Appointing him for Attorney General is much more dangerous. He will be the highest law officer in the land. It is divisive and hateful, and just the kind of thing one would have expected Trump to do if you took his racist, bigoted, divisive campaign rhetoric seriously. It appears we all should have taken it quite seriously.


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## dtcomposer

NYC Composer said:


> When my parents were working for civil rights back in the 60s equal housing wasn't law, so landlords could choose not to rent to a person of color (or of a different religion, or really anyone.) I'd guess Jefferson Beauregard Sessions believes the law that tells a landowner what he/she can do with their land is unjust. However, I don't. At some point, what is reasonable to you will be unreasonable to me.



This is an interesting point. It all was, really, but this stood out to me. I agree with the idea that at some point there can't be agreement with two competing ideologies. I get that, but I just think it is counterproductive to call a disagreement by a term that is hyperbolic and inflammatory because on other areas you might be closer in agreement and you create needless barriers to cooperation on those topics as well as the one where there is no chance of reconciliation. I don't think politics function over the long term as a zero sum game. Wild swings back and forth ends up in chaos. Maybe we are on that path now. What will the next swing left bring, and then what will the response be for the right after that?

Why not just disagree with the policy or philosophy, and explain why your idea is better without reading peoples minds and intents? Or even better why not compromise if at all possible to get a good outcome instead of what you feel is the best? I just fundamentally don't understand why anyone would work against their own interests. These are basic life skills that we use all the time, yet in political discourse we feel free to be terrible to each other, and think the worst of each other with little provocation.


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## dtcomposer

KEnK said:


> dt- If you had written that on Nov 6th I _might_ have agreed w/ you.
> But look at the cabinet Trump is forming.
> Those lunatics may very well provoke N.Korea into nuking Seoul or Tokyo.
> To late for pleasant philosophizing about who decides what's right or wrong.
> The time for business as usual is over.
> The threat this demagogue poses goes way beyond the civil liberties of American Citizens.



It's funny I visit Reddit quite a bit, and depending on where you go there you get a very different picture of what is happening with the cabinet appointments. In /politics, which is the main political sub page, every article is prophesying the doom of America. I can see why somebody who is surrounding themselves with that kind of media would be beside themselves with fear.

I don't love many of the rumored candidates, but I've also seen Trump move to the center quite a bit. We'll see who ends up in the cabinet. I 'm going to wait and see before getting too worked up about it. I'm cautiously optimistic that at least policy-wise we are going to see some general conservative/moderate things implemented. I'm not an ideologue so I don't see most of these as incredibly damaging. I do have some concerns, but I think the Fascism claims are going to be seen as over the top, and the racism/ anti-Islam claims will be as well. From what I've seen Trump isn't going to change much, but he just won't make progress on things that the left thinks are important. I do think that Trump is most likely a misogynist, but he's in good company with US presidents in that regard.

Maybe our location on the political spectrum is one reason for our different opinions. I'm left of center, but often willing to compromise, and don't like to be tied to one ideology. I support your right to be more worried than I. I hope you are wrong, and I guess we'll see what happens. If I am wrong I'll be here admitting it if we are still allowed to speak freely.

Edit: I do also worry a bit about Climate change, but really neither party is doing anywhere near enough to combat what is happening in that regard.


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## NYC Composer

dtcomposer said:


> This is an interesting point. It all was, really, but this stood out to me. I agree with the idea that at some point there can't be agreement with two competing ideologies. I get that, but I just think it is counterproductive to call a disagreement by a term that is hyperbolic and inflammatory because on other areas you might be closer in agreement and you create needless barriers to cooperation on those topics as well as the one where there is no chance of reconciliation. I don't think politics function over the long term as a zero sum game. Wild swings back and forth ends up in chaos. Maybe we are on that path now. What will the next swing left bring, and then what will the response be for the right after that?
> 
> Why not just disagree with the policy or philosophy, and explain why your idea is better without reading peoples minds and intents? Or even better why not compromise if at all possible to get a good outcome instead of what you feel is the best? I just fundamentally don't understand why anyone would work against their own interests. These are basic life skills that we use all the time, yet in political discourse we feel free to be terrible to each other, and think the worst of each other with little provocation.



Continuing with the purely intellectual, objective discussion-what's hyperbolic to you might be, to me, calling an elephant an elephant rather than calling it a coffee table. For example, you thought Trump might likely be a misogynist. That's your subjective opinion, and you put a name to it. If I believe Jeff Sessions to be a racist, that's me taking my opinion and putting a name to it. I may be wrong, right or simply subjectively opinionated, but there you have it.

I get that you're telling me "racist" is a buzzword, a button pusher. I understand your point of view, but I'm not feeling so delicate right now. I firmly believe that we have just elected the most unsuitable man for the office of the Presidency in my lifetime, not because he's conservative, (he's not) instead for more reasons than I can name right now, and he's proving it by appointing a number of people I disagree with and deeply mistrust. We'll see how it all turns out, but I'm not optimistic. I think I'll keep calling a thing a thing, at least as I see it. Again, YMMV.


----------



## chimuelo

Soundhound said:


> Well done, Jcrosby.



As usual cherry pickers only prefer the cherries they wish for others to consume.

Sessions helped confirm Eric Holder. A revelent fact ommitted MSNBC style to over exaggerate ones copy/pastes.

Probably regretted it as Holder immediately divided Americans with his inagural speech written decades earlier.
Everytime Holder had to answer for over stepping his job by intimidating reporters or arming Mexican Drug Cartels (El Chapo was arrested with a Barret 50 caliber rifle and armor piercing rounds) he blamed it on racism.
Eventually people just got tired of his whining so he created a new term saying criticisms contained racial components.

Dont remember anyone holding up his appointment and he profitted by selling pardons for the Clintons to convicted arms dealers drug runners and historys largest tax evader.
Who actually left the USA when the Bush tax cuts expired.

Why would racists allow a black middle man for criminals such an esteemed job?

Im awaiting descendents from Nazis in Argentina to be put in power this week.

Are the wealthy white Liberals who dont allow thier children to go to school with blacks in thier district not racists?
What about their hispanic maids and landscapers?
Hillarys maid was special, she could read english and use a printer for classified material.
So maybe HRC is at least trying to train her for a job at the State Department or The Foundation for children.

Now if David Duke went to see Trump I could understand.
Until then, whiny white guys crying racism is a way to voice disapproval and great fodder for another SNL skit.

One would think composers could at least strive for an inkling of original thought.
Maybe like the way Putin will cleanse Europe of non whites, and Trump will deport non whites to Africa Mexico and Catalina Island, etc.


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## NYC Composer

What will it be called if Trump makes good on his notion to round up and deport 12 million people, many of whom were covertly invited in to pick fruit and do other under the radar cheap labor? Certainly not racism. "Law enforcement."

Btw, what's your (first) comment about "the way forward", Jimmy? This is not the place for your ideological ravings unless you address the topic. That's how these things work. If you want to start a topic called "Stupid Liberals and their Stupid Notions", by all means do so.


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## Soundhound

To paraphrase, no cherrypicking, no cherrypicking, you're the cherrypicker. That's the right wing's support for the claim that Sessions isn't a racist, he supported the Holder nomination. That's so disingenuous Jimmy, even for you. You're all about the big picture, right? Except when it doesn't support your narrative. Sessions has been in congress in a post Strom Thurmond world, when it was no longer acceptable to be openly racist. His appointment as Attorney General seems to me is mostly about voter suppression, he'll go a long way to keeping the practice alive and well, insuring the republicans get as many votes as they can.


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## KEnK

dtcomposer said:


> It's funny I visit Reddit quite a bit, and depending on where you go there you get a very different picture of what is happening with the cabinet appointments. In /politics, which is the main political sub page, every article is prophesying the doom of America. I can see why somebody who is surrounding themselves with that kind of media would be beside themselves with fear.


As odd as it may seem, I am not personally involved w/ social media in any way.
I don't do facebook, reddit, twitter or whatever, but I do read about it's effects.
(I also don't have cable/satellite tv)
My opinions on Trump are not formed by "Liberal Media Spin",
but by the words Trump spoke continuously during the long campaign.
I heard what he said about Curiel, women, non-white immigrants, Muslims.
I heard him repeatedly lie about things he had said himself- denying his own recorded words.
I heard the endless cluelessness about what our government is, how the world works,
what Democracy is, and the US's place in the world.
I read the tweets reported by the "God Awful media"-
The white supremacist re-tweets, the vindictive childish crap, the anti woman stuff-
I heard him talk about loosening libel laws, jailing his political opponents, bringing back torture, abandoning NATO, reneging on various treaties, Nuclear re-proliferation and so on.
I could go on but I think you catch my drift-
What I think about Trump is a reaction to Trump's own words.



dtcomposer said:


> I don't love many of the rumored candidates, but I've also seen Trump move to the center quite a bit. We'll see who ends up in the cabinet. I 'm going to wait and see before getting too worked up about it. I'm cautiously optimistic that at least policy-wise we are going to see some general conservative/moderate things implemented. I'm not an ideologue so I don't see most of these as incredibly damaging. I do have some concerns, but I think the Fascism claims are going to be seen as over the top, and the racism/ anti-Islam claims will be as well. From what I've seen Trump isn't going to change much, but he just won't make progress on things that the left thinks are important. I do think that Trump is most likely a misogynist, but he's in good company with US presidents in that regard.



So far Trump's cabinet picks are a bunch of far right extremists-
Flynn sounded like a foaming at the mouth mad man to me at the GOP convention.
(My take on his words- no media spin)
His senior adviser is a darling of the White Supremacist movement.
Head of the CIA thinks it was a bad idea to do away w/ torture, secret prisons and God knows what else.
I see no move to the center.
I see a bunch of extreme Right zealots- crazed by their own hateful rhetoric.
These maniacs make G.W.s administration look scholarly and statesmen like.
(Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Cheney, Gonzales, etc)
There has been no move to the center.

As to the Fascism claims being over the top
"I am your voice" "Only I can fix it" "I know more about ISIS than the generals do"
These are Trumps own words- does that sound like "Democracy" to you?
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...



dtcomposer said:


> Maybe our location on the political spectrum is one reason for our different opinions. I'm left of center, but often willing to compromise, and don't like to be tied to one ideology. I support your right to be more worried than I. I hope you are wrong, and I guess we'll see what happens. If I am wrong I'll be here admitting it if we are still allowed to speak freely.


I am very far left, well into European/Canadian style socialism, but I'm also pragmatic.
Meaning I understand the need for compromise in order for our gov to function.
(Much to the chagrin of many of my Lefty friends)
Did you somehow miss the last 8 years of unprecedented GOP intransigence?
Did you miss the gradual move from the GOP being the Party of No to the Party of Hate?
Did you see the GOP convention?
The GOP was once a "conservative" party- but not any more.
This sentiment has been echoed and "worried about" by many in the more traditional GOP circles


dtcomposer said:


> Edit: I do also worry a bit about Climate change, but really neither party is doing anywhere near enough to combat what is happening in that regard.


Agreed there- but you do know who he wants to head the EPA right?
A "climate change skeptic".

I have no need to wait and see. It's already quite obvious to me.

k


----------



## jcrosby

dtcomposer said:


> It is really hard to get people to think outside of the way that they are comfortable. The thing that some/many liberals seem to not understand is that in almost all of these instances you can be against legislation for many of these issues because of reasons like thinking it is a government overreach, not agreeing in principal that there is a need for affirmative action or those types of legislation, or not seeing the need to add extra laws when there are already laws against bullying, assault etc. That doesn't make you a sexist or a racist. It might make you wrong about some of this stuff, but using the arguments I see above as a litmus test for not being homophobic, racist etc is, I think, inaccurate, and misleading. Now, if they are against these things because they are sexist or racist then that is a different issue altogether.
> 
> Except maybe in the case of gay marriage, which I think is clearly just an issue of wanting to legislate morality, there are rational non-racist/sexist reasons to oppose many of those measures. To pretend there aren't compelling logical arguments, even if you don't agree with them is not realistic in my opinion. Now I might think that the liberal argument is stronger, but I'm not sure of it enough to take a hardline stance and judge someone who disagrees, and I don't think the proof is even possible to obtain on some of these questions.
> 
> Abortion is a great issue where the science is undecided and there are very strong arguments on both sides outside of "baby killers vs religious nuts". Yet many on both sides pretend like their answer is the obvious and only answer without having all the facts, and indeed demonize the others as misogynistic, murderers etc. Again, I hate having to consistently defend somebody that I wouldn't choose for the position, but we really need to get our definitions straight here.
> 
> If we can at least accept that people can agree about things like jcrosby has posted without being "ists" then I think we are on the right path. That is what people on the right are upset about exactly. This was a great example of exactly what I was trying to show.



I'm totally fine with our views differing and I have no problem with you using me as an example to illustrate your point.

The video below is a speech from Richard Spencer entitled "The Napolean of the Year."

Who is Richard Spencer?

Spencer is the founder of the alt-right movement, founding the website AlternativeRight.com in 2010, and has been credited as such by Steve Bannon. Spencer has championed Bannon in being pivotal in providing the alt-right a platform via Breitbart. And Referred to Bannon's appointment in the following tweets.

_"@RichardBSpencer I think of it as Minister of Propaganda." 
(Historically relevant link provided.)_

_"@RichardBSpencer 1/"Strategist" is the best possible position for Bannon in the Trump Whitehouse._

More importantly, Richard Spencer is the president of the National Policy Institute. (Sounds so cozy.)
Also known as NPI. http://www.npiamerica.org

According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, Spencer advocates for a white homeland for a "dispossessed white race" and calls for "peaceful ethnic cleansing" to halt the "deconstruction" of European culture.

NPI's splash page self-describes itself as:

_NPI is an independent organization dedicated to the heritage, identity, and future of people of European descent in the United States, and around the world. It was founded in 2005 by William Regnery and Samuel T. Francis, in conjunction with Louis R. Andrews.
_
As if the title "The Napolean of the Year" isn't telling enough, In the speech Spencer gushes about what Trump means for the future of White Europeans.


(18:16 is particularly telling about the white nationalist embracement of Russia.)

Trump was also notoriously endorsed by, and his election celebrated by former Grand Wizard of the KKK David Duke.
A little lesser known is that Trump was also endorsed by, and his election celebrated by The American Nazi Party.

I'd also remind you that hate groups are separatist and/or fascist in nature. They do not endorse traditional political movements other than their own, period. Nationalist groups have genuine disdain for both political parties. (I've actually gone so far as fact checking the quotes being circulated in the media from the American Nazi Party on their website. ((I don't encourage it, it's nauseating.)) They openly see a hero in Trump, and, are in no way shy about their disdain for Democrats and Republicans alike. They are out for pure fascism.
And yet they champion this guy?

Ask yourself when was the last time you can recall two of the most well known and insidious hate groups in the country openly applauding a president, let alone one being a neo-nazi group?

Also noteworthy: In an interview with Vanity Fair in 1990 Ivana Trump told her lawyer that Trump read a book of Hitler’s collected speeches, _My New Order_, kept in a cabinet by his bed. (I have no idea how credible an interview from her is, I don't think it holds much weight per se, but the statement is inline with Bannon's past.
http://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/2015/07/donald-ivana-trump-divorce-prenup-marie-brenner

_Donald Trump appears to take aspects of his German background seriously. John Walter works for the Trump Organization, and when he visits Donald in his office, Ivana told a friend, he clicks his heels and says, “Heil Hitler,” possibly as a family joke.

Last April, perhaps in a surge of Czech nationalism, Ivana Trump told her lawyer Michael Kennedy that from time to time her husband reads a book of Hitler’s collected speeches, My New Order, which he keeps in a cabinet by his bed. Kennedy now guards a copy of My New Order in a closet at his office, as if it were a grenade. Hitler’s speeches, from his earliest days up through the Phony War of 1939, reveal his extraordinary ability as a master propagandist.
_
Regardless of your opinion on mainstream news, The bulk of this clip are straight from the man's mouth.
__

Particularly frightening is Trump's plan for a muslim registry... I'd like to call your attention to a moment last century where an ethnic group was also singled out based on race and religion and forcefully "registered" by being tattooed. What followed after is unconscionable.

We are certainly entitled to have opposing views and I do genuinely respect yours. But I will not dress up something that I find deeply offensive, and I make my case by judging those he's surrounded himself with, all of whom contradict his claim of intending to unify people or moving toward the center.

So where you see a man moving centrist, I see a man making deeply concerning first moves. I see a man who tried to put his family in power and had to back down due to public outcry. I see a man who's been dodging the press and conducting meetings in secret. I see a man drunk on power sitting in his tower meeting in private with foreign dignitaries. And most importantly a man propped up by two of this countries most extreme hate groups who's put a master of disinformation by his side, as has every fascist before him, and indications that he intends to make good on the neo-fascist hate rhetoric he repeatedly uttered through out his campaign.

_"*Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: ... Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act."*_


----------



## Soundhound

The more radical the right wing gets, the louder the voices for comity between the two sides gets. It's capitulation and enabling. It's how we got to having neo fascists running the government. Enough. Time to obstruct wherever necessary, march in the streets and build a new progressive democratic party. When the working class is thrown under the bus by the Trump administration, they will be angry. Those that aren't blinded by xenophobia, misogyny and racism could be reached with a rational argument. It's important that the democrats speak to them clearly and inclusively. They will be furious, and Bannon will lead the way to blaming the democrats for the failures of the Trump administration, just as the right blamed Obama for Isis when it was Cheney and Bush's war that created it. It's going to be a long, bitter fight, and the republican propaganda machine is deeply entrenched and well funded.



dtcomposer said:


> It's funny I visit Reddit quite a bit, and depending on where you go there you get a very different picture of what is happening with the cabinet appointments. In /politics, which is the main political sub page, every article is prophesying the doom of America. I can see why somebody who is surrounding themselves with that kind of media would be beside themselves with fear.
> 
> I don't love many of the rumored candidates, but I've also seen Trump move to the center quite a bit. We'll see who ends up in the cabinet. I 'm going to wait and see before getting too worked up about it. I'm cautiously optimistic that at least policy-wise we are going to see some general conservative/moderate things implemented. I'm not an ideologue so I don't see most of these as incredibly damaging. I do have some concerns, but I think the Fascism claims are going to be seen as over the top, and the racism/ anti-Islam claims will be as well. From what I've seen Trump isn't going to change much, but he just won't make progress on things that the left thinks are important. I do think that Trump is most likely a misogynist, but he's in good company with US presidents in that regard.
> 
> Maybe our location on the political spectrum is one reason for our different opinions. I'm left of center, but often willing to compromise, and don't like to be tied to one ideology. I support your right to be more worried than I. I hope you are wrong, and I guess we'll see what happens. If I am wrong I'll be here admitting it if we are still allowed to speak freely.
> 
> Edit: I do also worry a bit about Climate change, but really neither party is doing anywhere near enough to combat what is happening in that regard.


----------



## chimuelo

You're right about Trump getting the boot if the middle class keeps getting screwed. I didn't vote for him so saying no again would be easy.

You can hide behind racism, phobias, and many other ists. But when you Fuck over the middle class they are the majority in America.

Sadly I see the fake racism as the last gasping breath of a failed Theology.

If Trump succeeds uniting the middle class which IS the majority and encompasses all races and religion, these 2 fake parties are history.

Time to get behind the few real Liberals left, before they leave the lying Liberal wealthy party marking it's long overdue demise.

I seem to remember that racist Trump supporters would riot in the streets unless we elected HRC.
According to lying Liberal media Parrots.

Seems they were wrong about that too...
Imagine that....


----------



## Soundhound

Fake racism? Breitbart, Jeff Sessions? Come off it. These people always play to good old fashioned bigotry, it's their stock in trade. In hopeful moments I see this as the final death rattle of what's left of white nationalist, resentful, fearful, ignorant, backward America. In not so hopeful moments it looks like a successful power grab by the radical right.


----------



## KEnK

Soundhound said:


> I see this as the final death rattle of what's left of white nationalist, resentful, fearful, ignorant, backward America.


Maybe.
But 1600 Pennsylvania is the White Supremacist's House now.
Hard to see that as a "death knell"



Soundhound said:


> "Enough. Time to obstruct wherever necessary, march in the streets and..."


Yes- Zero cooperation w/ Fascists


----------



## Soundhound

that's why the sentence that followed it was: In not so hopeful moments it looks like a successful power grab by the radical right.

if far right policies prove disastrous for the country as they always have, without exception, then this cynical play for the working class won't last.



KEnK said:


> Maybe.
> But 1600 Pennsylvania is the White Supremacist's House now.
> Hard to see that as a "death knell"
> 
> 
> Yes- Zero cooperation w/ Fascists


----------



## dtcomposer

Soundhound said:


> The more radical the right wing gets, the louder the voices for comity between the two sides gets. It's capitulation and enabling. It's how we got to having neo fascists running the government. Enough. Time to obstruct wherever necessary, march in the streets and build a new progressive democratic party. When the working class is thrown under the bus by the Trump administration, they will be angry. Those that aren't blinded by xenophobia, misogyny and racism could be reached with a rational argument. It's important that the democrats speak to them clearly and inclusively. They will be furious, and Bannon will lead the way to blaming the democrats for the failures of the Trump administration, just as the right blamed Obama for Isis when it was Cheney and Bush's war that created it. It's going to be a long, bitter fight, and the republican propaganda machine is deeply entrenched and well funded.



I could see some of this happening. If Trump doesn't deliver (which will be basically impossible) then they'll be ripe to swing back over.


----------



## dtcomposer

See I think a lot of what you are showing here is sensationalized, or irrelevant. It doesn't matter who endorsed who. I'm sure leftist hate groups endorsed a more leftist candidate, but I don't think less of candidates unless they are directly associated with a group, or espouse their objectionable standards. The Muslim registry (depending on which sources you look at ) is basically already in use, and has been for a while. And it isn't a blanket thing, but something for non-citizens from high risk countries. I don't love anything to do with government spying, but I think these things are being sensationalized, as is almost everything Trump says or does.

I'm fine with you being extra vigilant. I think fear mongering has the exact effect that you are showing in your post (not that you were doing it, but that you are buying it). I'll be right there with you if and when I think the actions warrant it. I'm not saying there is no chance that Trump goes the fascist route, but I think it is a big stretch. We'll see.


----------



## dtcomposer

Hopefully this will be the last thing I need to say about it. I understand that many of you disagree (the few who are posting). I respect that, and I hope that you can just be a little bit more willing to listen to those with differing opinions, even if it is just in your daily relationships and exchanges outside of how you think of any specific politicians. Thanks for the respectful exchanges here.


----------



## Soundhound

I'm always willing to listen. What in what I said is sensationalized, specifically? 



dtcomposer said:


> Hopefully this will be the last thing I need to say about it. I understand that many of you disagree (the few who are posting). I respect that, and I hope that you can just be a little bit more willing to listen to those with differing opinions, even if it is just in your daily relationships and exchanges outside of how you think of any specific politicians. Thanks for the respectful exchanges here.


----------



## KEnK

dtcomposer said:


> See I think a lot of what you are showing here is sensationalized, or irrelevant.


Well dt,
I do we realize from what you say, we are on the same side, but nothing said here is irrelevant.
A few things to consider-
He didn't win the popular vote, and even the people who "stayed home" are not happy w/ the outcome.
Even a "Huuuge" amount of Trump voters think he is unqualified or lacks the necessary temperament
His unprecedented vitriol created an unprecedented response.
I don't think you'd be seeing this reaction if a more moderate Republican won.
You can't throw gasoline on a fire and not expect an explosion.
This is Trump's doing.
Also unprecedented is the extreme Right cabinet pics so far.
Much further Right than G.W.'s neo-cons- and look where that got us.

The combination of big business and government is the very definition of Fascism.
This is besides the unconstitutional nature of many of his so called plans.
Having his family involved in his business and in The White Supremacist's House is already raising concerns.
So he's laying the groundwork for his own impeachment-
But then it'll be Pence- some I've always though of as vile and slimy.

It's a big country.
Room for some people to not care, for others to "wait and see"
and for hyper vigilance as well.

Personally I've been paying attention to politics for a very long time.
Never seen anything like this.


----------



## chimuelo

The popular vote could have been changed during the Super Majority.....oooops.
Now that they lost all power to pass legislation, much less sell it to investors, they want to change the laws.

An example of why they are no longer relevant.

They dont fool anybody anymore.
But lobbying for millions awaits them, but that cash usually is reserved for the winners, not the losers.


----------



## jcrosby

Soundhound said:


> The more radical the right wing gets, the louder the voices for comity between the two sides gets. It's capitulation and enabling. It's how we got to having neo fascists running the government. Enough. Time to obstruct wherever necessary, march in the streets and build a new progressive democratic party. When the working class is thrown under the bus by the Trump administration, they will be angry. Those that aren't blinded by xenophobia, misogyny and racism could be reached with a rational argument. It's important that the democrats speak to them clearly and inclusively. They will be furious, and Bannon will lead the way to blaming the democrats for the failures of the Trump administration, just as the right blamed Obama for Isis when it was Cheney and Bush's war that created it. It's going to be a long, bitter fight, and the republican propaganda machine is deeply entrenched and well funded.



I couldn't agree more. Trump's tactics of hate are the hallmark of how fascism, nationalism, populism, oligrachy, whatever you want to call it, start... You drive a wedge between the working classes, race or religion being the easiest wedge, and create a social rift where the working class forget that they're actually in the same boat together...

Regardless of whether Ivana Trump's interview holds any weight, (which I suspect it doesn't. Even if it did it wouldn't be taken seriously considering we're talking about his ex-wife and a pop culture rag like Vanity Fair...); regardless, I see Trump having studied figures like Mussolini, Napolean, and perhaps even Hitler.

I spent a semester in a class focused primarily on the propaganda, language and cult of personlity tactics emoplyed by Stalin, Hitler and Mussolini. When I watch his speeches it's straight out of everything we studied. His speeches, particularly how he uses 'verbal slight of hand' is no parlor trick... He's spent his career honing that skill.

He starts out speaking loosely about the issue, essentially luring you in with seeming indifference, finds the wedge, say immigration or job loss etc, ramps up the anger to the point of the crowd fueling itself by its own angry cheers, and at the height of rage drops calculated racially charged language.

It's straight out of the cult of personality, rabble rousing, whatever you want to call it... If I took anything away from the class it's that people are far more persuadable in large crowds surrounded by an ideology. He's calculated in his tactic of letting the crowd fuel its own rage.

Ragardless of Maddow's piece being from a media outlet with a lean, (I personally quite enjoy her), it is chronological and you can see how skillfully Trump ramps the rhetoric up over time.

I also think he, and whatever think tanks are powering his machine, (The Heritage foundation we know being one,) have their finger on the pulse of rising populism moving across Europe. In my opinion Trump, and the think tankers behind him are very well aware of how they have played the game.

And looping back around the Richard Spencer with a link to the Heritage Foundation, Spencer published an article by former Heritage Foundation member http://www.npiamerica.org/the-national-policy-institute/uncategorized/the-jason-richwine-affair (Jason Richwine).

Richwine's study attempted to show that hispanics and non-europeans had a 'hereditary' pre-disposition to lower IQ scores. 
(If that isn't racist with a splash of racial supremacy then please tell me what is.)

I've linked NPI's article above discussing this to draw the link between the school's of thought in the alt-right, and specifically where they overlap in Washington with the Heritage Foundation; a think tank referred to as the most influential conservative think tank in DC; and one with ties directly to Trump.

*Also, some interesting quotes/bullet points from a Newsweek article linked above:*

_"Trump’s ability to connect with angry American voters also parallels that of European leaders in today’s crop of ascendant right-wing parties. The continent’s right-leaning populists of the early 20th century galvanized “people who were previously disenfranchised or had very little role in terms of conventional politics,” says Rees."

"Fast-forward to the 21st century, and parties such as France’s National Front, led by Marine Le Pen, and the Austrian Freedom Party are targeting a similar demographic. ... Eatwell, who specializes in right-wing European politics: Many of those men are “blue-collar workers who fear losing their jobs, or they’ve been de-skilled [and] feel threatened by the change, as a man.”

"Leaders like Mussolini and Hitler played to similar audiences, those who resented the “dominance of a kind of intellectual elite that tends to hold the masses in a certain kind of contempt,” Rees says."

*"The Power of Baby Talk*
A common way populist leaders burnish their anti-elite bona fides is through a lowbrow speaking style. Trump’s third- or fourth-grade language level has made him a media punch line, but he’s hardly the first politician to use little words to gain mass appeal. Many of the most successful populists “talk in everyday speech to their target audience,” says Eatwell. ...
declarative “common” phrasing “helps say they’re not part of the system,” he explains. This is a fundamental element of Trump’s appeal._

_And it’s not just the speaking style that is simplified. Rees says a common theme of the right-wing regimes he studies is their simplification of the entire political discourse, “reducing it to basic binary opposites, of black and white,” and, of course, of us vs. them. Psychological theory holds that targeting the “other” helps a group construct its own identity"
_
*DIVIDED WE FALL...*


----------



## KEnK

jcrosby said:


> I spent a semester in a class focused primarily on the propaganda, language and cult of personlity tactics emoplyed by Stalin, Hitler and Mussolini. When I watch his speeches it's straight out of everything we studied. His speeches, particularly how he uses 'verbal slight of hand' is no parlor trick... He's spent his career honing that skill.


hmm...
What you've said about Stalin Mussolini Hitler is historically spot on.
But I think you give Trump too much credit.
Even if he did have a book about/by Hitler by his nightstand-
He doesn't strike me as being very bright.
Too many missteps (which have been absurdly overlooked by the fawning masses)
I think he's operating on instinct alone.
The end result is the same though


----------



## NYC Composer

"The Muslim registry (depending on which sources you look at ) is basically already in use, and has been for a while."

I've long believed that Americans wanted their dirty wars to be fought at risk-that the rules of domestic and international law were only to be flouted by agencies at risk of exposure and condemnation. I believe many citizens see it in a schizophrenic way. They want to be safe...but.

Please consider the alternative-_legalized_ surveillance of all member of a religion, citizens or no. I don't believe I'm being hyperbolic in saying that would be the end of the American experiment.


----------



## Soundhound

That's what it seems like to me. I'm not familiar with his reading up on Stalin/Hitler/Mussolini, but my guess is that Trump blustered into cynically playing up to fears and biases with his fraudulently populist message, and doesn't really understand much of how it works. Bannon on the other hand appears to be very smart, saw Trump as his opportunity, and now is directing the show. Trump is the vainglorious face of this monstrosity, Bannon is the puppet master. That's my guess. 




KEnK said:


> hmm...
> What you've said about Stalin Mussolini Hitler is historically spot on.
> But I think you give Trump too much credit.
> Even if he did have a book about/by Hitler by his nightstand-
> He doesn't strike me as being very bright.
> Too many missteps (which have been absurdly overlooked by the fawning masses)
> I think he's operating on instinct alone.
> The end result is the same though


----------



## jcrosby

KEnK said:


> hmm...
> What you've said about Stalin Mussolini Hitler is historically spot on.
> But I think you give Trump too much credit.
> Even if he did have a book about/by Hitler by his nightstand-
> He doesn't strike me as being very bright.
> Too many missteps (which have been absurdly overlooked by the fawning masses)
> I think he's operating on instinct alone.
> The end result is the same though




I don't disagree. I don't think he sat down and wrote speeches, spoke with the same level of articulation or force as Hitler. He did use the same speaking tactics though in the sense of using the crowd as a means to feed off of itself... And he certainly ran on a platform of nationalism. What does concern me is how he's managed to walk away as a bit of a wolf in sheep's clothing. Even some of his non-supporters are still saying give him a chance, wait and see despite disagreeing with his rhetoric... That is troubling...

Although I might not call him very bright, I don't see him as being dumb at all. I think he's calculating if not in his words, in the way he delivers them. His timing, his use of gestures as a sort of slight of hand, building a crowd up to the point of echoing back his rhetoric... He's certainly part conman, but like a conman, he's well aware of the game and how he plays it...


----------



## jcrosby

NYC Composer said:


> "The Muslim registry (depending on which sources you look at ) is basically already in use, and has been for a while."
> 
> I've long believed that Americans wanted their dirty wars to be fought at risk-that the rules of domestic and international law were only to be flouted by agencies at risk of exposure and condemnation. I believe many citizens see it in a schizophrenic way. They want to be safe...but.
> 
> Please consider the alternative-_legalized_ surveillance of all member of a religion, citizens or no. I don't believe I'm being hyperbolic in saying that would be the end of the American experiment.



Sure, I think there's certainly truth in that. It's well known that mass surveillance has been equally, if not more about keeping tabs on us than on foreigners, immgrants, etc... (I'm looking at you Utah! )

I don't know of a current muslim registry but I'd certainly be interested in seeing anything about it. That certainly falls under racial profiling and has been in practice for at least a decade. (If not much longer. Which would not surprise me at all...)

The problem is we now have someone who intends on using it as a precedent to unlawfully jail one ethnic / religious group in mass numbers. Creepiest of all being one of his pundits recently in an interview citing Japanese internment as a 'legal precedent'. That is some genuinely scary shit...


----------



## KEnK

jcrosby said:


> Creepiest of all being one of his pundits recently in an interview citing Japanese internment as a 'legal precedent'. That is some genuinely scary shit...


Yes- and as if one of the most sorry embarrassing rascist chapters in American history can be used to justify it.
It's all too Orwellian


----------



## chimuelo

Tulsi Gabbard, a real Liberal, has requested an audience with the Donald at Trump Towers.
I will share what she has to say after further research.
Hopefully this is a smart way forward as she advised the wealthy Liberals and Conservatives they were arming the people she fought against. Not to be trusted, but why listen to others ideas when you always think you're right?

Maybe the Donald will give a voice to real Liberals and keep the fake self serving wealthy folks busy fundraising..
Let them do what they're successful at.


----------



## Soundhound

Will be very interested in what happens with that, keep the masses posted please!


----------



## NYC Composer

Hey, that could be construed as a way forward, Jim. Careful!


----------



## chimuelo

Hey that's what it's all about.
But I will still keep an eye on Michele Rhee and her Hitler Youth Programs requested by crude white nationalists.


----------



## NYC Composer

chimuelo said:


> Hey that's what it's all about.
> But I will still keep an eye on Michele Rhee and her Hitler Youth Programs requested by crude white nationalists.


So you're not in favor of Hitler youth?
Do you think they should be denied a safe space?


----------



## chimuelo

Well of course not.
But I better be careful as I dont want to anger ze Fuhrer.

Tulsi is awesome aint she?
She or another fav of mine from the Bay Area Jane Kim, are the kind of women I like seeing in public service.
Im kind of pro non white lately.
Even fell for my therapist.
A 5'11" Manchurian Seahorse.

A real Michele Yeoh with a Heidi Klum body.

During such turbulent transitional periods nothing beats a 90 minute massage followed by a hot oil hand job....

Ankyu


----------



## chimuelo

Heres the prepared statement. Cant wait for details.
The wealthy white Liberal Shepards threatened to not fund her campaign for stepping down from the failed Wasserman Shultz Hillary fan club over at the DNC where CNN gave questions to Hillary fearing Bernie might ruin her coronation.








Chimuelo (Star of Stage & Screen),

As you have no doubt heard by now, I met with President-elect Donald Trump earlier today.

He asked me to meet with him to discuss our current policies regarding Syria, our fight against terrorist groups like al-Qaeda and ISIS, as well as other foreign policy challenges we face.

It would have been easier for me to refuse this meeting. The establishment and social media have been talking about this all day. But I never have and never will play politics with American and Syrian lives.

In fact, like President Obama, I firmly believe that now is the time for us to put our country first, and come together, regardless of political party, and tackle the many challenges we face.

This was an opportunity to advocate for peace—and *I felt it was important to take the opportunity to meet with the President-elect to counteract neocons’ steady drumbeats of war, which threaten to drag us into an escalation of the war to overthrow the Syrian government.*

This war has already cost hundreds of thousands of lives and forced millions of refugees to flee their homes in search of safety for themselves and their families. It has also strengthened al-Qaeda and other violent, extremist groups in the region. It would have been irresponsible not to accept this invitation. I feel it is my duty to take every single opportunity I get to advocate for peace, no matter the circumstances of those meetings.

I shared with him my grave concerns that escalating the war in Syria by implementing a so-called no-fly/safe zone would be disastrous for the Syrian people, our country, and the world. It would lead to more death and suffering, exacerbate the refugee crisis, strengthen ISIS and al-Qaeda and bring us into a direct conflict with Russia–potentially resulting in a nuclear war. We discussed my bill to end our country’s illegal war to overthrow the Syrian government and the need to focus our precious resources on rebuilding our country, and on defeating al-Qaeda, ISIS, and other terrorist groups who pose a threat to the American people.

Also, where I disagree with President-elect Trump on issues, I will not hesitate to express that disagreement. You didn’t send me to Washington to make friends with the political elite. You sent me to represent you, and I am committed to doing just that.

*In short: I will never allow partisanship to undermine our national security when the lives of countless people lay in the balance.*

If that earns me enemies in Washington or at the State Department, then so be it.

I hope you’ll continue to stand with me and stay engaged. The cause of peace is too great for us to allow political disagreements or partisanship to stand in our way.

Aloha,

Tulsi Gabbard
______________________________________________
If yuze guys dont vote with her you had better follow your wealthy Shepards to thier lobbyist jobs where they pole dance for the highest tippers.
_______________________________________________

This is the real Liberal. She doesnt jump when party leaders crack thier whips.


----------



## NYC Composer

Do you really want to be a force for good, Jimmy? If so, stop generalizing and knocking people. 

Out of respect for you, I will look carefully into Tulsi. Have respect for other people and stop being a dick.

Musically yours,
Lawrence, Emperor of All He Surveys


----------



## NYC Composer

http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/21/politics/alt-right-gathering-donald-trump/index.html

Every time hate groups meet and praise Trump, it's an opportunity for him to say "I am against these people, everything they stand for, and you should be too." I await.


----------



## Hannes_F

NYC Composer said:


> http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/21/politics/alt-right-gathering-donald-trump/index.html
> 
> Every time hate groups meet and praise Trump, it's an opportunity for him to say "I am against these people, everything they stand for, and you should be too." I await.



These people are stupid. Still on the old idea that mankind would evolve mentally by gardener's methods, which it does not. And they can be happy about it because if it were so, they would not even persevere for long.
However I wonder why the media willingly give them so much coverage. The same mistake ever and ever again. Coverage is energy for them.


----------



## NYC Composer

Because stupid people like me read it. 

On a more serious note, Hannes-simple answer-I look carefully at anti-Semitic groups in these troubled times. I have valid historical reasons. Jews who considered themselves full German citizens-well, we know what happened there. Vigilance is the price of both freedom and survival.


----------



## KEnK

Hannes_F said:


> I wonder why the media willingly give them so much coverage


The US was built on Genocide and Slavery.
Although the Civil War "ended" in 1865, "those people" and their poisonous ideology never went away.
Trump has brought them out of the back woods and into the mainstream.
We always need to know what they're up to- so we can oppose them and hard.
The shit has just hit the fan. The splattering is only beginning.

Today I watched the news w/ my 84 year old Mother-in-law.
There was a piece about a petition already circulating for California to leave the Union.
I'm certain it will make the 2018 ballot.
She said she'd sign it.

Viva la Revolution!


----------



## Michael K. Bain

KEnK said:


> The US was built on Genocide and Slavery.
> Although the Civil War "ended" in 1865, "those people" and their poisonous ideology never went away.
> Trump has brought them out of the back woods and into the mainstream.
> We always need to know what they're up to- so we can oppose them and hard.
> The shit has just hit the fan. The splattering is only beginning.
> 
> Today I watched the news w/ my 84 year old Mother-in-law.
> There was a piece about a petition already circulating for California to leave the Union.
> I'm certain it will make the 2018 ballot.
> She said she'd sign it.
> 
> Viva la Revolution!


I live in Texas, and there have been secession petitions here for years.


----------



## NYC Composer

50 countries. That'll work. Hey, maybe we can then form an, umm, Amerizone-and have a common currency and free passage.

Nah. Too radical. We'd probably end up with Texit.


----------



## jcrosby

KEnK said:


> The US was built on Genocide and Slavery.
> Although the Civil War "ended" in 1865, "those people" and their poisonous ideology never went away.
> Trump has brought them out of the back woods and into the mainstream.



Aint that the truth.... This country was founded on genocide and slavery. Is recognizing America's longstanding tradition of racism; be it through slaughtering its natives, enslaving and lynching once racial group over another, or "freeing" them while forcing them to live as second class citizens through segregation for a century liberal? Centrist? Conservative? If speaking for the "inalienable rights" of one group vs another makes you politically biased than please step up and give those policies a left, right, or center identity.


----------



## jcrosby

chimuelo said:


> Now if David Duke went to see Trump I could understand.
> Until then, whiny white guys crying racism is a way to voice disapproval and great fodder for another SNL skit.



What a compelling argument. Especially coming form someone hanging on to the rhetoric of a liberal media conspiracy while the country slants in favor of the extreme right... Political satire is a tradition that goes back as far as recorded history. Trump will shake things up? Please. He's doing the bidding of the https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9F2zCmKCmXOQVJGNU5wdUl6VG8/preview (extreme right) who've been attempting a power grab for decades. You can sure as shit bet he was coached through it, especially considering immigration and "islam" are at the top of the list by a wide margin...

CNP Issues of Concern Based On Membership
https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2016/08/31/revealed-conway-bannon-members-secretive-group
(Bannon page 18, Conway p. 45.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_for_National_Policy
https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2016/05/17/council-national-policy-behind-curtain
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=121170&page=1
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/ted-cruz-republicans-cleveland-225452


----------



## chimuelo

Jcrosby why didnt you post here when Liberals were killing whites and still kill cops thanks to Soros money, Holders DOJ and Sharptons cop killers?
You fear what has not happened, yet silent as people are being beaten by gangs of liberals and cops die?

Good luck trying to convince people of your vision of white supremacy.
Thanks for being Liberal too as the worshipping of wealthy whites as representatives of blacks and hispanics is the real modern day slavery.

They get thier own schools and live away from the wealthy white Liberals.
The males are stripped from fatherhood responsibilities just like the old south.
Be proud of your wealthy whites, they have you and millions fooled into being all inclusive when its quite the opposite.

Thats white power in yo face.
Speak up on your brother Al Sharpton or the Panthers Holder chose to set free to intimidate others again.

White Power Liberalism, heres some food, go make babies, if you change your mind go to planned parenthood.
We can sell thier organs for cash.
White Power..

Guilt ridden white guys are usually easy to rile up when us darker people show you what Sheep you are.

Hate groups need to be targetted not given free air time Larry.
But the NYTimes needs money.


----------



## Baron Greuner

The way forward for France has now become most fascinating. Hollande can't win it, so it's down to either the right wing or the far right wing with Marine Le Pen. The way the voting goes there, it's unlikely that Le Pen will win, but everyone said that about Trump apart from Ann Coulter (seriously impressive).
So. Should Le Pen win the Spring election in La France, say adios to the entire EU. The Brexit vote won't matter anymore and the whole deal crashes down the toilet.
Then of course, there's the German election a little later.

Hey you Euro guys btw? When are you going to start building your armed forces?


----------



## NYC Composer

Does all of that make you happy, Adrian? If it all crashes down, will you feel more secure if the Eurozone fails , combined with with Trump's dislike of NATO and a growing sense of U.S. isolationism?


----------



## NYC Composer

chimuelo said:


> Jcrosby why didnt you post here when Liberals were killing whites and still kill cops thanks to Soros money, Holders DOJ and Sharptons cop killers?
> You fear what has not happened, yet silent as people are being beaten by gangs of liberals and cops die?
> 
> Good luck trying to convince people of your vision of white supremacy.
> Thanks for being Liberal too as the worshipping of wealthy whites as representatives of blacks and hispanics is the real modern day slavery.
> 
> They get thier own schools and live away from the wealthy white Liberals.
> The males are stripped from fatherhood responsibilities just like the old south.
> Be proud of your wealthy whites, they have you and millions fooled into being all inclusive when its quite the opposite.
> 
> Thats white power in yo face.
> Speak up on your brother Al Sharpton or the Panthers Holder chose to set free to intimidate others again.
> 
> White Power Liberalism, heres some food, go make babies, if you change your mind go to planned parenthood.
> We can sell thier organs for cash.
> White Power..
> 
> Guilt ridden white guys are usually easy to rile up when us darker people show you what Sheep you are.
> 
> Hate groups need to be targetted not given free air time Larry.
> But the NYTimes needs money.


For the last time-"liberals" don't kill cops. Murderers, and occasionally radicals, do.

Targeting sounds great, Jimmy. I'd like my President to stand up and make a targeted statement about his recent thumbs up from American Nazi Party and the KKK. Also about the Nazi salutes. We white skinned non Christians take that shit hard, although you brown skinned racists prolly ought to wake up too.


----------



## Soundhound

This is a neo facist regime, make no mistake, it's a right wing coup. Whether it succeeds or not will be a test for the American experiment on the level of the american civil war. 

Trump just wants power, he's not smart enough to strategize any of this, Steve Bannon is doing it all. Trump has the Republicans completely cowed, they'll do whatever he wants. Jeff Sessions is Attorney General purely to maintain and expand voter suppression. Social security privatization is on the agenda. 

The media just follows along without much fight, as it has since it became part of the entertainment industry during the Reagan era. The small sections of the media that do question him are largely marginalized and Trump is going to fight them tooth and nail, it's what dictators do. Nationalism and isolationist propaganda precede world wars. If the coup here succeeds and the right wing takes over enough of Europe, the next one won't be far off. 

Subscribe to the NY Times, The Washington Post, media outlets that speak out against Trump. March on Washington and across the country. All the time. Support progressive democrats and mainstream democrats who agree to holding their ground against Trump.


----------



## chimuelo

That's a great idea for unemployed Liberals.
They could use the exercise from what I've seen.

I actually like Americans protesting.
I would be pissed too since the candidates selected were terrible.

But if I can handle Liberals burning down their neighborhoods, peaceful protests for a while is fine.

We must stand together and fight white racists.

As soon as I see some I'll let you know....


----------



## Soundhound

If you're looking for white racists I could post some links but since your Reagan-colored glasses don't let that info through, not sure it would help.


----------



## chimuelo

I'm a brown skinned racist.
I like black racists, white racists, Asian racists Indian Racists, even my fierce (RIP) Rott hated black and white men. Like me he liked their women though.
Here's his yearbook picture.


----------



## chimuelo

He was trained not to take food but wait.

I miss the elder statesmen.


----------



## Soundhound

Beautiful pup! 

So you have no problem with the white nationalism that Trump has created a renaissance for yah? The gathering in Washington led by the nail Spencer over the weekend, those are your boys?


----------



## woodsdenis

NYC Composer said:


> Does all of that make you happy, Adrian? If it all crashes down, will you feel more secure if the Eurozone fails , combined with with Trump's dislike of NATO and a growing sense of U.S. isolationism?


He just raging that Credit Suisse in its 2016 _Global Wealth Report _has estimated the cost of Brexit to be $ 1.5 trillion_. _It is equivalent to every adult seeing $33,000 cut from the value of their accumulated assets (home, savings, car, and the rest). Way to go Adrian_/_Farage and Boris. After that shambles your opinion on world events is very interesting.


----------



## chimuelo

Soundhound.
I could care less about a few whack jobs trying to get air time.
They are simply an example of Liberal Black Panthers, only opposite in color.

I'd like to see these hate groups rounded up and make a few weeks of Survivor where the freaks kill each other.

Panthers vrs. the KKK.....
That would be a ratings mega series.

You have to make your own clothes and weapons as you are dropped off naked on some island.

The Panthers are expert Spearsmen I've heard.
KKK are expert rock throwers like William Wallace of Braveheart.


Just another cool way forward...


----------



## JonFairhurst

Jimmy, the great defender of all things racist. 

The great advocator of racists' rights.

"Spearsmen"? If that's not overt, offensive racist language, what is?

Anti-anti-racism is racism. 

You are nobody to me.

Blocked.


----------



## NYC Composer

Trump has things to say about Black Lives Matter but is totally mum about white supremacists-and you don't see a pattern. I guess brown skinned conservative racists see what they want to see and pretend they don't see things that are right in front of their noses.

Heil Trump!-oh wait, they said "hail"- as if we didn't get it.


----------



## chimuelo

I thought the rock throwing would piss off white guys.

It's difficult to gauge what offends Liberals these days.

If the wind blows south they are offended that it didn't blow north.
As a southern wind would favor southern racists...


----------



## chimuelo

I was also under the impression yuze Jewish guys were great with rock slings.
Always liked David and Goliath story.
If this is hate speech or racism, please be tolerant of my harmful hurtful views based on historical and geographical texts.


----------



## NYC Composer

My safe space has a baseball bat. No worries. Still, after you conservatives murdered my relatives in Germany, we're all sensitive an' shit. I know, I know, we should get over it, but we're whiners, just like your buddy Bannon sez.


----------



## chimuelo

A great weapon I saw used in Skokie, Illinois as a child visiting my Uncle.

KKK held a March there and were met by JDL members.
Klansmen thought the signs with pipes could be used if attacked.
Louisville Sluggers had a better reach.

As a multi racial racist I prefer dull Machetes.
I just offended myself, as my ancestors hacked their way through dense rain forest terrain.
Please forgive me fellow brown skinned racists...


----------



## JonFairhurst




----------



## KEnK

NYC Composer said:


> totally mum about white supremacists


Actually I think having Bannon as his chief adviser is a HUUUGE statement-
He's not mum about them at all.
He is one of them- quite clearly


----------



## JonFairhurst

This is damn convincing. Education level played a huge role in the election.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/education-not-income-predicted-who-would-vote-for-trump/


----------



## chimuelo

Doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out Liberals create debt, not jobs.
Maybe dem dair dummies can add and multiply better than the 1% GDP geniuses....


----------



## NYC Composer

The last conservative President created plenty of jobs for the military industrial complex, soldiers fighting useless wars and reconstruction companies-until he crashed the economy and we lost millions of jobs. Doesn't take a genius to see that labels are bullshit.


----------



## JonFairhurst

Similarly, labels and symbols are important for developing alignment. It's no coincidence that conservatives trash the word "liberal" and call Democratic politicians "Democrat" politicians as it sounds harsher and associates people with partisanship, rather than ideals.

We need "alt right" to be a pejorative that is worse than nazi. Info Wars really means BS machine that spreads disease. 

More so, the left needs new visions and goals with new labels and associations. The right has been kicking our asses on this front and uses their tools for terrible purposes.

We need to do more than to react to their deeds. Imagine who we are in the absence of an enemy. Align with ideals that show a higher purpose. And live to those higher ideals.


----------



## chimuelo

Larry, he had lots of help from the NYTimes and Wealthy Liberals like Kerry, Clinton, etc. etc.

All self pro claimed smart folks with College Degrees too.

Let's see how white racist uneducated dummies do.

I've seen enough of the ideological carcinogens that make people feel they are just so brilliant.
Anyone can spend 10 trillion.
But only Liberals can create 10 trillion more in debt and get 1% GDP.

Real smart folks that sadly let schooling get in the way of thier education...


----------



## chimuelo

JonFairhurst said:


> Similarly, labels and symbols are important for developing alignment. It's no coincidence that conservatives trash the word "liberal" and call Democratic politicians "Democrat" politicians as it sounds harsher and associates people with partisanship, rather than ideals.
> 
> We need "alt right" to be a pejorative that is worse than nazi. Info Wars really means BS machine that spreads disease.
> 
> More so, the left needs new visions and goals with new labels and associations. The right has been kicking our asses on this front and uses their tools for terrible purposes.
> 
> We need to do more than to react to their deeds. Imagine who we are in the absence of an enemy. Align with ideals that show a higher purpose. And live to those higher ideals.



Jon you just need an economy that works, then all of us dumb folks are too busy to vote.
That way you smart guys with ideological carcinogens in your blood can screw things up and we won't notice your brilliance...


----------



## KEnK

chimuelo said:


> Doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out Liberals create debt, not jobs.


C'mon Chim- you're smarter than that.
Ever hear of Ronald Reagan? G.W. Bush and his Dad?
Google some stats


----------



## NYC Composer

Both Bushes graduated from Yale, I believe. GW also went to Harvard b-school. Trump often tells us he went to Wharton, though his first two years were spent at Fordham (where my wife graduated with honors, but strangely was not offered a place at Wharton.) These fabulously, generationally wealthy plutocrats are your idea of uneducated working men? Riiiiight. Virtual day laborers. What a crock.

Edit-apparently DJT's academic career is a vast mystery. Opinions vary on his seemingly non-remarkable Fordham career (most info says his grades were "respectable", whatever that means) and then somehow he got into the very hard to get into Wharton.

Mysterious how that happened


----------



## chimuelo

KEnK said:


> C'mon Chim- you're smarter than that.
> Ever hear of Ronald Reagan? G.W. Bush and his Dad?
> Google some stats



Look yuze guys try your hardest to call me Fox News and others want to box me into some Liberal jive community because I've supported Bernie since the 90s.
Sorry, youre pissing in a fan, it means nothing to me, just shows how blind of a person I converse with really is.

Im a free man, dont need no politician to make my life complete, if you do, I sympathize.
I simply adjust to the environment they create and continue succeeding, even after taking lumps.

But 10,000,000,000,000 in 8 years is just disgusting.
But hey we saved GM, or hey we at least have 1% growth....

What a pathetic claim to success.

Hey I'll join yuze guys and call them racists.
So if these white racist jew hating homa zena islama massaginist sexist bastards fix the economy.
They can count me in in 2020.
If not, Hello Tulsi, as long as she isn't taking money from wealthy white Liberals.


----------



## NYC Composer

All about the money, eh pal? 

Check back with me in 6 months and let me know how that's going, ignoring the alt-right playbook behind the Donald. You might be changing your tune. 

On the other hand, you do seem to
like the Same Old Song. Too bad they don't want you in their club.


----------



## jcrosby

NYC Composer said:


> Heil Trump!-oh wait, they said "hail"- as if we didn't get it.



I'm not projecting any real hope here... but their crawling out of the woodwork for Trump shows that they're overconfident. It's at least serving to keep a spotlight on his rhetoric for the time being... 

Unfortunately it may well be a diversion to whatever he's doing when the press pool aren't or can't be nearby... Basically who he's confirming behind closed doors... There's a strategy in play at why he's been slow in announcing his appointments, and who knows who's promising him what in those meetings...



JonFairhurst said:


> We need "alt right" to be a pejorative that is worse than nazi. Info Wars really means BS machine that spreads disease.



I recently saw a piece online where someone said how "clever" it is that alt-right sounds like alright. I'm sure Spencer being the conniving bastard he is has used this to his advantage in downplaying their toxicity. In the interim Neo-Nazi or White Supremacist work for me. It's at least to the point.


----------



## JonFairhurst

jcrosby said:


> I recently saw a piece online where someone said how "clever" it is that alt-right sounds like alright...



Or "all Reich."


----------



## JonFairhurst




----------



## Soundhound

Trump hasn't said anything about the racist element of the alt right, but he whines and bitches about the cast of Hamilton speaking out respectfully to Mike Pence. What a despicable coward this guy is. 

If you support someone who incites racists to get into office, you're a racist. Trump is a racist. If you voted for Trump, you're a racist.


----------



## NYC Composer

I saw it all as tactical at first. Despicable , but tactical. Now, not so much.


----------



## KEnK

chimuelo said:


> Look yuze guys try your hardest to call me Fox News and...


I'm just talking about data.
The numbers are there for anyone to see.


----------



## chimuelo

Yeah.
20 trillion in debt.
10 of it in the last 8 years for more poverty, and an 8 year average of 2.1% GDP.

Time for growth.

My Chinese sweetheart has worked since the first week she came here.
Went to school to get certified, raised her daughter now makes 700 bucks a week.
In Tsingtao thats 2 months of rent and food.
Shes grateful for her success.

Shes a kind woman and asks me why doesnt everyone work?
She actually feels bad as she thinks shes taking jobs from Americans.
I told her some people just dont want to work.
She does not understand.

I cant explain why Liberals prefer small checks and a terrible resume.

Confusing times.


----------



## NYC Composer

Uuuuuge tax breaks for billionaires will certainly trickle money down like golden urine on the heads of hard working people. Heck, it worked before. Oh wait-it didnt. On the plus side, the rich got richer.


----------



## NYC Composer

Actually, screw the economics. I don't want to live in a country in which my President is neutral about Nazis. I want him to speak to the issue, not issue some generalized crap about bringing people together. I want him to directly address "Hail Trump!" and Nazi salutes.


----------



## NYC Composer

This is a start. Not enough and contradictory as he says Bannon isn't alt-right and Bannon says he is:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/22/politics/donald-trump-disavow-groups-new-york-times/index.html


----------



## chimuelo

His tax policy is fine until it gets near his range then its back to Stockman era shit that we know could easily be progressive to at least offset the lower brackets.
Otherwise its pro growth.

All were so worried about Obamacare they basically swapped growth to win thier battle.
Very bold, but economically stupid.

Especially when trade agreements and currency manipulation can go full steam ahead without consequences.

Hope he has more experienced advisors than Gruber Emmanuel and Oglesby.

Oh well, thats past.
Look ahead and hope he wins for us.

Theres lots of sharks waiting for us to stumble then look for another currency to get behind.
If that happens you wont be able to afford chatting on the forum as your access will be based on time not a subscription.


----------



## chimuelo

I want to see if Congress follows through on DIGIT passed March 1st.
Early tests have proven to be a huge success. Berkshire Hathaway risked 13 billion Google Intel, etc.
I watch D.C. insider trading legislation in regards to tech stocks and patents.
Phase 1 is over and in September the Steering committees can push this forward to OP where it could really boom.
Bio Tech and Nano investments could soar and this becomes global, but as usual corporations and billionaires risked capital so naturally they get first slot in the market.

It's a job killer in certain sectors but a boom in others if it passes into the acceptance phase.

Saturation phase projects 19 trillion by 2020 in wealth created.

Oddly enough it's the total of our debt.

Wouldn't that be a great leap in relief.

Patents that get pushed through so fast are because they are unlike drugs or other technology requiring after market research.
This was a record 3 months.

But here's a guy with an 8 month patent.
Audio tech that brought us the very best crossovers for IEMs.

Sorry no scary Nazis or white supremacists, but a way forward to benefit all.


----------



## NYC Composer

Seen 3-D X-point yet, Jimmy? JV between Intel and Micron.

Tech investments are great. Scary Nazis and white supremacists matter to me.


----------



## chimuelo

Yeah but they are easy to spot since they use Brylcream and look like McFly.


----------



## Soundhound

Jimmy the standard right wing apologist false equivalencies and trivialization of racism that you have so much fun with are the thin edge of the wedge of fascism. Yes this country was built on racism and genocide, among other things, but the civil rights movement and the left in general have been fighting it for generations and making some progress, against the protestations of the republican party every step of the way. Trump used this racism to help him get elected and it's going to have dire short and long term consequences.

To anyone who wasn't sure, (and it's amazing to me that anyone at all familiar with Trump could not be) his meeting with the NY Times makes it clear that Trump is a cipher. He's not well educated or interested in government, he just has a pathologically desperate need for attention, for adoration. This emotionally fragile, intellectually ignorant, weak man is now president of the united states. And he has an alt-right supporter in his ear and an old style southern bigot as his attorney general.

Along with its economic message, his campaign unleashed a groundswell fueled by hate. Teaching children to feel superior to, to indeed hate other kids because of the color of their skin or their religion, for being different, is always reprehensible. Equating white nationalism with the black panthers is way too ignorant for someone like yourself who purports to be informed and educated. Not drawing clear distinctions between what you see as the corruption on the left and the destructive fear and hate of this fascist movement isn't just disingenuous on your part, it feeds the fuel of racism and hate. And I've had enough.

If you're going to continue it, I'm going to block you as well. I'll miss hearing a lot of what you have to say, I'll miss your insane poetry, but I don't have the time to waste on your support of fear and hate. Your call. Next post you make either way makes the choice for me.


----------



## chimuelo

Quit pretending "All Americans" are part of your right left freak show.
Americans I know dont need a Crime Family affilation to survive.
Nor to learn how to live together.
You can befriend me and feel righteous as you want.

I do sympathize for your endless ists isms and phobias.
Having to judge people the way you do must be a terrible way to view the world.

Just converse with those that share similar views and narrow sighted visions.
Hope you recover from your trauma and enjoy life sometime soon.

Erev Tov


----------



## JonFairhurst

I'm finding that blocking racism deniers, apologists, and minimizers is a great tonic. It allows me to focus on The Way Forward, rather than letting their poison under my skin and reacting to it. Why let them make me jump when I can spend more energy on developing a good offense, rather than playing defense all the time?

Besides, if we don't react and just talk past their BS, it denies them attention.

So, I'm spending energy doing research, reading, and strategizing. This feels much better than stressing and reacting.


----------



## Soundhound

Nice knowin' ya, Jimmy. Enjoy your part in enabling the apocalypse.

Blocked.



chimuelo said:


> Quit pretending "All Americans" are part of your right left freak show.
> Americans I know dont need a Crime Family affilation to survive.
> Nor to learn how to live together.
> You can befriend me and feel righteous as you want.
> 
> I do sympathize for your endless ists isms and phobias.
> Having to judge people the way you do must be a terrible way to view the world.
> 
> Just converse with those that share similar views and narrow sighted visions.
> Hope you recover from your trauma and enjoy life sometime soon.
> 
> Erev Tov


----------



## chimuelo

Trauma and drama mixed with good old blind Liberal hypocrisy.

President Obama branded the Clinton's and Joe Biden as racists.
The media went nuts and it's well documented.
Do you deny these events?
Are you guys race deniers?

I see this as more fake racism, and obviously all Liberals felt the same as they nominated her as thier candidate.

Or do you guys feel so self righteous and select what is racism?

Actually it's very simple.
You do as instructed by the media by parroting everything they tell you.
They just misled and lied to you for the last year, yet not punishment, but reward them by continuing to parrot the visions they want forwarded.

I am so glad I am of mixed race.
I can't imagine the suffering and guilt you were shamed by in those dumbed down public schools.

As a child I had Uncles call my grandmother WOP or Seniorita, and as a child it was frustrating but I became an adult and just figured they're old folks, not yet adjusted to the mixing of race, culture or religion.

Don't respond, don't want you to miss further instructions from your newspapers or MSNBC anchors.

Hillary and Biden are good racists.

The Academy Awards will bring tears to your eyes this year.
If you don't applaud you're a racist.


----------



## NYC Composer

Jimmy, yes or no, without a sideways diatribe or who on the liberal side is racist, do you consider that "hail Trump" rally to be racist?


----------



## chimuelo

Damn straight I do.
I hate real racists and would love to drop them off naked in my old neighborhood after a few smacks to the face.

This forum is international so I feel compelled to let others from other countries know what the Liberal lie really is used for. Shaming and tactics.

The fake jive ass racism comes from avatars.

In the real world people arent brave enough to call people racists unless theyre in a group hiding behind others.

Ive never been called a racist except from some avatars here.
Everyone that knows me can just look at me and my friends and see real America.

In the real world if some moron called me a racist I would throw my drink in his face and beg him to swing on me.

But these things are sought out by lying Liberals and while they do exist, they are amplified edited and used over and over and fail.
But keep trying, its all you got left.


----------



## NYC Composer

I knew you couldn't answer the question without lecturing me and turning it around.

Economics are important. A work ethic is important on many levels. However, the idea that "liberals" in this country aren't hard working people is ridiculous. No one handed me a fortune-I worked from 18 on. No one gave me any connections, I made them. "You and your friends" aren't any realer citizens of this country than I am or my friends are, what a ridiculous notion.

What does the "liberal lie" have to do with white supremacists making the Nazi salute and yelling "Hail Trump!" Why isn't my President addressing that directly? What's any of that got to do with "liberals?" Is every post of yours simply an opportunity to talk your book?


----------



## JonFairhurst

I didn't see what prompted your post, but I smell some gas-lighting going on.

We've got to get back to our core values. 
* Compassion over cruelty
* Truth over partisan propaganda.
* Fairness over tyranny.
* Responsibility over blame.
* Respect over bigotry.

These values aren't conservative vs. liberal. They are Americanism over Trumpism. 

The key is bravery. A brave person can stand for what's right. A fearful person will sacrifice ethics for survival. 

Be brave. Transcend fear. Champion higher values. And let the gas-lighters flail.


----------



## Hannes_F

JonFairhurst said:


> I didn't see what prompted your post, but I smell some gas-lighting going on.
> 
> We've got to get back to our core values.
> * Compassion over cruelty
> * Truth over partisan propaganda.
> * Fairness over tyranny.
> * Responsibility over blame.
> * Respect over bigotry.
> 
> These values aren't conservative vs. liberal. They are Americanism over Trumpism.
> 
> The key is bravery. A brave person can stand for what's right. A fearful person will sacrifice ethics for survival.
> 
> Be brave. Transcend fear. Champion higher values. And let the gas-lighters flail.



I love this post. May I suggest an addition: The core values are Humanity, of which America has often be an inspiring and hope giving example (especially in its more innocent decades). For many humanists over the world America has often since its foundation been a role model because of these values. I am serious.

Don't be cynic about your nation, this is not going to help anybody. I sincerely hope what you are experiencing is a growth crisis and after struggling through it (which might take its time, probably years) you will come out of it better than before. Happy Thanksgiving to America!


----------



## KEnK

NYC Composer said:


> ...white supremacists making the Nazi salute and yelling "Hail Trump!" Why isn't my President addressing that directly?...


You know the answer to that Larry.
He's one of them. Bannon is one of them.
What does "Make America Great Again" mean?
You know that too.
He ran a campaign primarily on bigorty, rascism and xenophobia w/ quite a bit of misogyny thrown in.
There were never any detailed policies discussed.
He is a distgusting vile pig.
He's not addressing the KKK and neo Nazi's because he likes them
They serve both his ego and his "agenda", his foul purpose.

The "Good People" of the Trailer Park Nation continuously overlooked every revolting statement that Pig made for 2 years. 
They are not going to admit the obvious now.
That's why to me- the "Way Forward" is not "wait and see", find common ground, etc-
It is relentless opposition-
Let's wait and see how the secession movement works out.
Did you see this Garrison Keller article recently?
Let's wait and see where that goes.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/trump-voters--its-not-me-its-you/2016/11/21/92d7c884-b005-11e6-be1c-8cec35b1ad25_story.html?utm_term=.bf49e83aaf67


----------



## chimuelo

Ken do you want us to interpret your copy/paste as your view of America and you found a like person at WaPo you now follow loyally?

That's sad, he walks through an Airport wondering which person voted for Trump?

Your hateful generalization of Trailer Parks should be noted as YOUR opinion, and is based on paranoia and parroted lies.

My Hispanic cousin and his Mexican wife lost thier home and live in Riverside, CA. 
They refuse to become dependents so they each work and don't qualify for subsidies other than the generous food stamps. They live in a Trailer Park.

Where I live poor people live in Trailer Parks. Blacks Whites seasonal migrant workers with green cards.

But have a great Thanksgiving up there in your Ivory Tower as you insult Americans you think you know, read OpEds from parrots and regurgitate them as facts.

What kind of neurotic walks around thinking about skin color, religion and beliefs just by glancing, then dismissing them as a Trump or Clinton supporter?

If this is being well informed I'm glad I'll never waste time reading more Crap from some loser.

Tip..

White Castles x 30
Onion Celery 
Chicken broth with 1 egg
Sage and Rosemary

Stuff the Turkey

Share amongst friends.
If you have nowhere to go I do hope your pain is eased through music.

Maybe this author has already predicted his misery through the holiday season.

Maybe you don't need to let him ruin yours.

Peace Out


----------



## KEnK

chimuelo said:


> Ken do you want us to interpret your copy/paste as your view of America and you found a like person at WaPo you now follow loyally?


You underestimate me and have no idea how I form my opinions.
My mother lives in an actual trailer park.
Relatives in Florida too.
Personally I live well below the poverty line, and if I ever made it to the poverty line, I'd feel wealthy.
What I think is not formed by the Liberal Media Elite you're so fond of dismissing.
I have no college degree-
Don't do social media-
I am not of and don't aspire to be your "Elite".
I am of of Blue Collar Stock- Trumps "people".
But my brain is not closed
I have a conscience, personal and social.
I think about right and wrong

I actually don't fit at all in your cardboard cut out version of people who don't agree w/ you.

Check the stats as I asked you before
Who voted for Trump chim?
Who screams "Lock Her Up", "Obama's not a citizen", "Climate change is a hoax" ?

Figure it out
Gotta start cooking my Thanksgiving dinner now

have a good one-
although we don't appear to agree-
I know we're on the same side

peace to you and yours

k


----------



## KEnK

One more thing- then I gotta start cooking.
The Trump supporters and I agree on one thing-
"Smash the State"
But they thought the way to end Washington gridlock is
by electing a Billionaire Nazi Sociopath who they think has their interests at heart.
My way to do it is to end Washington's purpose- Dissolve the Union.
Much easier for me to personally deal w/ Sacramento Gridlock

That's why I posted the Keller article-
Because I'm apparently not alone in thinking that.
It's an independently arrived at conclusion
I look forward to finding the Petition at my local grocery market

Viva la Revolution


----------



## chimuelo

But yet you quote the few people out of millions and paint them as a way to justify your opinion.

I have always been Blue Collar.
Neither party represents me but I have no illusions the middle class usually doesn't vote.
Middle Class is of every culture race and religion.
They don't care until thier pockets get picked, or they are lied to.

It's sad many had to vote for Trump.
But globalists of both parties saw the rise of Bernie and Trump.
It's a shot across the bow.
Wealthy Liberal elites stacked the deck against Bernie, conservatives stacked the deck against Trump.
He chose a vile way to win.
But he won.
He will be removed if the voters say so.

I suggest watching your primary process now that you know the way they categorize minorities and look down on the rest of us.

If not there will be more Trumps.

If you live in LA the books are one for Laborers and IBEW.
You don't have to be trained.
You get certifications and then after 4 years become a Journeyman.
Laborers are also using apprentices.
You carry water jugs sweep up debris hold signs guard gate entrances.
Starting pay is 18 bucks an hour, full benefits after 90 days, 2 years later 50 bucks an hour, 32 dollars on your envelope.

Private Sector investment matched with funds thanks to Jerry Brown are generating so much revenue the State and Local pension funds are now funded through 2035.
I know you hate this but Trumps plan is going to be very similar.

You don't have to have a degree, you can actually be a convicted felon, almost a pre requisite in my local.

I'm serious they advertise to us through monthly bulletins.
Nevada and California just opened thier books for the first time in 10 years
Laborers is a walk in the park.
Lots of fine Latinas too.

I wish you well.
But if you want unlimited vision dental and low co pay, exemplary from the ACA check them out if you live in LA County.


----------



## Soundhound

Christ almighty I've blocked Jimmy and still hear ghosts.

Aaaaanyway... I love your post Hans. I've been saying for decades to anyone that will listen (our two cats and occasional telemarketers are my only rapt audience so far, start small and build...) that the far right wing that has risen over the last generation is the one step back in the two steps forward one step back natural history of progress. I didn't think the step back was going to be this drastic, but I'm hoping that when we hit rock bottom, or rather, now that we've hit rock bottom, we will start to move forward again.

Just subscribed to the Washington Post (no more free reading their articles for moi) and joined the ACLU. It's a dark time, but if you don't move toward the light, you'll never find the refrigerator or the pecan pie within.


----------



## KEnK

Soundhound said:


> Christ almighty I've blocked Jimmy and still hear ghosts.


Jimmy is not your enemy.
He is a provocateur and an agent of independent thought.
Believe it or not you are on the same side.
He is a Poet Warrior and hard to figure out.
But he wants what you and I want


----------



## Soundhound

I've always loved Jimmy's poetry and I don't think he's my enemy, but I just can't get past the nonsense conflating far right radicalism and progressive politics. Especially now. The people in power now aren't just neocons, the religious right and trickle down economics robber barons, they are fascists and making excuses for them I find stupid, insulting and dangerous. 




KEnK said:


> Jimmy is not your enemy.
> He is a provocateur and an agent of independent thought.
> Believe it or not you are on the same side.
> He is a Poet Warrior and hard to figure out.
> But he wants what you and I want


----------



## KEnK

Soundhound said:


> The people in power now aren't just neocons, the religious right and trickle down economics robber barons, they are fascists and making excuses for them I find stupid, insulting and dangerous.


Totally agree.
But for me- now is also not the time to block unconventional wisdom or points of view.
We all are going to make different choices about how to deal w/ the bad hand we've been dealt.
Perhaps part of Chim's point is to figure out how we got here-
An essential part of the remedy if there is one.


----------



## NYC Composer

Jimmy's got everything figured out.


----------



## Soundhound

I hear you and couldn't agree more about looking at it from as many angles as possible. And a lot of what Jimmy sees is great, there's just a lot of baggage I'm not interested in right now. Maybe after a while, but not now. 




KEnK said:


> Totally agree.
> But for me- now is also not the time to block unconventional wisdom or points of view.
> We all are going to make different choices about how to deal w/ the bad hand we've been dealt.
> Perhaps part of Chim's point is to figure out how we got here-
> An essential part of the remedy if there is one.


----------



## chimuelo

Thank You KenK.
I admire success, I envy intelligent people I love music, and despise Liberals and Conservatives.
Been this way since the DNC GOP sold us out to thier corporate backers.

Unlike Trump I am not angry at Corporations seeking cheap labor.
They are killed by regulations which are made by lazy politicians seeking quick political gain.
Taxing businesses and middle class families forcing them out of the city has created ghettos.
This leads to Chicago, Detroit, Dallas, etc. making bad decisions on investments to make up for lost revenue putting pensions at risk.

How is it a peasant like me can see these things and our wealthy politicians kick the can?

Trump is not my guy, but now that he is there I will support him as I want an economy for my less fortunate friends and family.

So am I a Nazi racist?
Hell no, but wasting time trying to end the Trump era is counter productive.

In 2 years I pray more real Liberals can gain seats.

But if the same tired Nazi and failed white racists cries persist, you'll get a 2 term Trump.

Time to take advantage of the down time instead of giving the GOP more videos of rioting Liberals and police assassinations.

I can already see an uphill battle for the real Liberals I support because of the emotional knee jerk Crap I'm seeing now.

But we all have our own idea of survival.

Mine will be easy as my Insurance program I paid 6 bucks an hour for 30 years is now safe, my son has 6 years of Towers and 10 years of infrastructure.

I want an economy.
If we have to elect a Chinese diplomat, I don't care.
Let States go bankrupt experimenting with flawed ideas from College professors.

Time for growth.

You'll see when that happens Nazis disappear, cops aren't hunted by drug dealing punks, people don't riot since they got jobs.

This isn't rocket science.


----------



## chimuelo

NYC Composer said:


> Jimmy's got everything figured out.


I'm glad you came to your senses finally.
I think you're alright too Larry.


----------



## JonFairhurst

Having an honest interaction with somebody who has another point of view is great. Having a conversation with a crazy guy on the street corner isn't. Yeah, they say interesting things in interesting ways, but when you try to have an honest interaction, they don't respond directly; you just get a recital of the monologue in their head. After a while, you're better off looking straight ahead, walking past, and ignoring them.

Here's a good example: Kevin James might be provocative, but you're never going to learn anything from him:


----------



## NYC Composer

Can't argue with perfection. Can't have much of a discussion with it either-I mean, there's nothing to add. Why should perfection listen to anything but itself? 

I enjoyed my interactions with Jimmy until I realized he wasn't taking a word I said seriously and was going to repeatedly cycle the same narrative in response to anything I tried to discuss.
I enjoy debate, especially with people I disagree with, but Jimmy don't debate.
Me, I'm done takin' de bait.


----------



## JonFairhurst

This is a *must read* article by George Lakoff.

If there is one word that we will hear about the upcoming administration, it is "betrayal." Especially as it relates to the incoming Minority President.

https://georgelakoff.com/2016/11/22...he-polls-failed-and-what-the-majority-can-do/


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

George Lakoff is always interesting, but if people only respond to frames rather than Descartes - aka using their brains - what difference does anything make. He talks about morals, but I just can't get past the idea that almost half the voters have none.


----------



## JonFairhurst

That's a key point. I think that most of those people do have morals, but due to fear and competing values, they've abandoned or ignored their morals.

I think the key is to expand the moral story. Even bands of thieves can develop a code of honor. We need conservatives to understand that America is strong when we all work together as a team. To divide America is to make us weak. And conservatives do not value weakness.

We ALL need to REJECT the UNAMERICAN positions of the alt-nazis. That are a small fringe. Conservatives should demand that Bannon be expunged from the White House.

Reject the alt-nazis or die weak and shamed.


----------



## jcrosby

I found it interesting. The takeaway for me is that people have values, but the values are determined by their belief system, the environment they put themselves in, etc...... And a belief system is easy to exploited through crafty language.

Basically keeping the loss of the popular vote running in the 'conversation' is more effective than pointing out he's a sexist, racist pos...

Even though he is and it should be a no brainer, people conditioned a certain way are less offended by that than by being reminded that their "leader" actually lost. Especially since he talks about winning all the time...

Who knows how right he is, but language does seem to hit a trigger in us.

Think about how conservatives, (or Jimmy ) use the word liberal to trigger you and show you your own exploits... It shouldn't offend you since it really doesn't mean anything other than: _Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry._

But as a concept media has conditioned you that someone is referring to you as a wishy-washy bleeding-heart softy who wants free handouts and no government oversight... Do you? Are you? HELLLL NO.

But it does hit a trigger or pyschos like Ann Coulter wouldn't say it like they were holding a loaded handgun.


----------



## NYC Composer

To be accurate, the way liberals are portrayed is as wishy-washy bleeding heart softies who want endless entitlements and TOO MUCH (Federal) government oversight.

I don't think Ann Coulter is a nut-I think she is a smart entrepreneur, a savvy purveyor of bullshit. I also think that she's hard to win a debate with because she's good at keeping the discussion in her wheelhouse, using the material she's brought with her and staying on the subject line she wants to focus on. If you're as good at it as she is, her methodology is a recipe for success.


----------



## chimuelo

Liberals are worshippers of false God's, all white like evangelicals pictures of Jesus, etc.

In my family Jesus wears a cowboy hat and picks your Strawberries.

Here's a real Liberal, our future unless the old goats continue the lying failed attempts at regulating every coin that shines...

____________________________________




Tulsi Gabbard
Soldier. Veteran. Surfer. Member of Congress. Doing my best to be of service.
4 days ago
*My meeting with Donald Trump*

Chimuelo, My studly warrior of keyboards,

As you have no doubt heard by now, I met with President-elect Donald Trump earlier today.

He asked me to meet with him to discuss our current policies regarding Syria, our fight against terrorist groups like al-Qaeda and ISIS, as well as other foreign policy challenges we face.

It would have been easier for me to refuse this meeting. The establishment and social media has been talking about this all day. But I never have and never will play politics with American and Syrian lives.

In fact, like President Obama, I strongly believe that now is the time for us to put our country first, and come together, regardless of political party, and tackle the many challenges we face.

This was an opportunity to advocate for peace — and I felt it was important to take the opportunity to meet with the President-elect to counteract neocons’ steady drumbeats of war, which threaten to drag us into an escalation of the war to overthrow the Syrian government.

This war has already cost hundreds of thousands of lives and forced millions of refugees to flee their homes in search of safety for themselves and their families. It has also strengthened al-Qaeda and other violent, extremist groups in the region. It would have been irresponsible not to accept this invitation. I feel it is my duty to take every single opportunity I get to advocate for peace, no matter the circumstances of those meetings.

I shared with him my grave concerns that escalating the war in Syria by implementing a so-called no fly/safe zone would be disastrous for the Syrian people, our country, and the world. It would lead to more death and suffering, exacerbate the refugee crisis, strengthen ISIS and al-Qaeda and bring us into a direct conflict with Russia–potentially resulting in a nuclear war. We discussed my bill to end our country’s illegal war to overthrow the Syrian government and the need to focus our precious resources on rebuilding our own country, and on defeating al-Qaeda, ISIS, and other terrorist groups who pose a threat to the American people.

In addition, where I disagree with President-elect Trump on issues, I will not hesitate to express that disagreement. You didn’t send me to Washington to make friends with the political elite. You sent me to represent you, and I am committed to doing just that.

In short: I will never allow partisanship to undermine our national security when the lives of countless people lay in the balance.

If that earns me enemies in Washington or at the State Department, then so be it.

I hope you’ll continue to stand with me and stay engaged. The cause of peace is too great for us to allow political disagreements or partisanship to stand in our way.

P.S. Don't let those whiny bitches in the VI Forums alter your superior intellect.

Aloha,

Tulsi Gabbard


----------



## NYC Composer

My sister in law is planning to bring her family (3 male children and her husband) to the Million Woman March in Washington. I am contemplating the same as part of taking personal initiative. I want to see the general platform first, see how it shapes up. It's complicated, because I'm not interested in protesting the result of the election. I was virulently opposed to the idea of Trump doing it when he thought he'd lose, and I'm not a hypocrite. If it's a march against misogyny, bigotry, white supremacy, alt-right etc. and it's fairly focused, I'll probably go. Got to start somewhere with more than just financial contributions.


----------



## chimuelo

What a great idea.
I'm going to try and score this gig I've been turning down in Silver Springs.
Hopefully it's lots of hot babes.
If it's like the anti Andrew Dice Clay groups that came it'll be a break even gig. 
They looked more like the Ann Murray/Ellen Degenere imitators.
You have to get some hot babes who hate Trump.
Sadly 50+ % supported Trump.
College educated women too which to me was a shocker.
Nobody cared much about Rosie Whoopee or Beyhar.
Rosario Dawson was a shocker too.

The kind of feminists I respect are like Ashley Judd.
There's hardly anything she talks about that doesn't have men agreeing with.

Have fun Larry.


----------



## chimuelo

Chicago needs local taxes to try and keep pensions from getting devalued like Detroit's loyal public servants.
Those protesters are likely causing many shoppers to go back home.

Liberal taxation drove middle class families out of the city.
Now retailers might split.
I'm sure working folks and farmers would love to bail out Rahms flailing policies.

Maybe Bezos/Washington Post funded this to drive people to shop Amazon.

Smart move.


----------



## Soundhound

My wife is going and has collected a fairly large posse and family and friends to represent. The talk doesn't seem to be much about protesting the election, more about protesting what it represents. Unless the green party recount comes up with something, I would think.


----------



## NYC Composer

Going yourself , hound?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

JonFairhurst said:


> That's a key point. I think that most of those people do have morals, but due to fear and competing values, they've abandoned or ignored their morals.
> 
> I think the key is to expand the moral story. Even bands of thieves can develop a code of honor. We need conservatives to understand that America is strong when we all work together as a team. To divide America is to make us weak. And conservatives do not value weakness.
> 
> We ALL need to REJECT the UNAMERICAN positions of the alt-nazis. That are a small fringe. Conservatives should demand that Bannon be expunged from the White House.
> 
> Reject the alt-nazis or die weak and shamed.



The alt-right has to go, sure.

But here's the thing: whether 50+ million people abandoned their morals or never had them doesn't really matter. I say it's the latter, because if you have any morals you couldn't vote for unvarnished evil.

It doesn't matter, though. Those people are dead to me. Just under half the voters in this country don't deserve to live in it.

The people to concentrate on are the ones who didn't vote. They need to be mobilized for the next election if we have any hope of surviving this tragedy.


----------



## Soundhound

I might. Right now it's an all girl trip and I don't want to spoil the party. But if it opens up to the lesser halfs I'll probably go. If you go too we need to meet up. 



NYC Composer said:


> Going yourself , hound?


----------



## Soundhound

It's how I felt when Reagan was elected. A giant swath of the country fooled by a schmuck using small town talk while really further enriching the already rich and moving everything backwards a few decades.

I remember the night Reagan was elected, I was in a club we used to play at all the time and Ed Bradley walked in and had a few drinks with the owner. He looked like he'd seen a ghost, there was no laughing. Probably a good thing he didn't live to see this disgusting next act.




Nick Batzdorf said:


> The alt-right has to go, sure.
> 
> But here's the thing: whether 50+ million people abandoned their morals or never had them doesn't really matter. I say it's the latter, because if you have any morals you couldn't vote for unvarnished evil.
> 
> It doesn't matter, though. Those people are dead to me. Just under half the voters in this country don't deserve to live in it.
> 
> The people to concentrate on are the ones who didn't vote. They need to be mobilized for the next election if we have any hope of surviving this tragedy.


----------



## Michael K. Bain

Nick Batzdorf said:


> The alt-right has to go, sure.
> 
> But here's the thing: whether 50+ million people abandoned their morals or never had them doesn't really matter. I say it's the latter, because if you have any morals you couldn't vote for unvarnished evil.



That's not true. I know for a fact that NYC Composer did vote for Hillary.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

yuk yuk


----------



## NYC Composer

You don't know it for a fact, Michael, but it's alleged. Just as you are alleged not to have voted for DJT.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Soundhound, Reagan was nothing like this... and yet he laid the groundwork for where we are. I think the thread that first got pulled was letting short-term money take over.


----------



## Soundhound

And selling the country on the snake oil of trickle down economics and breaking the unions and normalizing deregulation and embracing the fanatic bigoted religious right, the war on the poor (sold as the war on drugs), the privatization of the prison industry, and and and... This crap all started with Reagan, he was a menace, the enemy of the working man. This just the latest chapter, don't get me wrong, it's another level entirely and it's far more frightening, Reagan didn't openly sell hate, it was all coded. Trump sold racism and hate right out in the open. But the direction is exactly the same. Sell out the working man, enrich the powerful.





Nick Batzdorf said:


> Soundhound, Reagan was nothing like this... and yet he laid the groundwork for where we are. I think the thread that first got pulled was letting short-term money take over.


----------



## NYC Composer

I'm on a financial website where David Stockman posts articles and his corps of acolytes comment. I enjoy adding my fact-based, utterly destructive comments to each of those threads. The way I see it, no one has been quite as wrong except Greenspan, who was even wronger.


----------



## NYC Composer

To quote myself from my initial
post in "The Year of Trump":

"When the most strident voices are dominant, when the loudest voices speak without thoughtful consideration or nuance, civil society suffers."

That was in March, and here we are.

It's not my way to yell. I detest stridency, yet I wonder if abrasive behavior will be necessary to defeat the champions of disinformation and fact-free propaganda. Must we yell louder? Must we be equally repellent and amoral in our tactics?


----------



## Soundhound

I think the word is vigilant.


----------



## NYC Composer

That's "a" word. I'm not so sure it's "the" word.


----------



## Michael K. Bain

NYC Composer said:


> You don't know it for a fact, Michael, but it's alleged. Just as you are alleged not to have voted for DJT.


I'm not sure you understand what my joke meant. 
Nick said "if you have any morals you couldn't vote for unvarnished evil" and when I said that's not true because I know you voted for Hillary, I was turning it around, saying that Hillary is unvarnished evil. I chose you as the example of someone who voted for her because I believe you have morals.


----------



## Michael K. Bain

NYC Composer said:


> You don't know it for a fact, Michael, but it's alleged. Just as you are alleged not to have voted for DJT.


Wow, if I actually did vote for Trump after all the bad things I've said about him, I am the biggest hypocrite on these forums. No sir, I voted for Castle or McMullin.


----------



## NYC Composer

And I did of course vote for HRC. I believe you have morals too, though our outlooks are quite different and we disagree on many things.

In the next years, liberals and moderate conservatives may have to find some comity to defeat what we now see before us.


----------



## Soundhound

True dat. If hollering bloody murder were a word, that might be another.



NYC Composer said:


> That's "a" word. I'm not so sure it's "the" word.


----------



## NYC Composer

In politics, one false move or, in this case, an outbreak of way too candidness, can be fatal.

I went back and watched the "basket of deplorables" moment. HRC looked disheveled and exhausted. We subsequently found out that she had pneumonia at the time. 

Still, I believe that was the real turning point. Think what you like, use your inner voice, but say it out loud? I felt like I had been punched in the gut.

When I mentioned this to my liberal family over Thanksgiving, they went silent. Looked at me blankly. I felt as if I had spoken in a foreign language. It boggles my mind, this unwillingness to own some of the problems with the campaign.


----------



## Soundhound

she got caught saying what everybody was thinking.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Sorry, Larry, but if that's what people base their vote on, forget it. I'm not going along with the liberal-blaming or campaign-blaming for one minute.

The blame lies squarely with people who committed an unforgivable act: voting for Txxxx. Deplorable doesn't begin to describe over 50 million people who did that.

I know what you're saying, you don't need to explain it. This isn't the time for second-guessing political horseraces, it's time to figure out how the country is going to survive.


----------



## NYC Composer

Well Nick, that's why I started this thread, and you're right that my meandering was OT. Looking back is not helpful unless it propels us forward. That said, we're not going to agree that there's no value in examining how we present progressive values in a media-driven age.

"Forget it"? Forget what, the country, the political process, abandon all hope ye? "An unforgivable act" sits prettily with the basket of irredeemable deplorables and the 47%.

Your presentation has always appeared strident and inflexible to me. Maybe that's what's needed in the face of lying, dog whistle racism, misogyny, disinformation and propaganda, as I mentioned earlier. Maybe that's the way forward. I don't like it but I'm no longer rejecting it out of hand.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Inflexible? Bullshit. You just want to believe 50+ million people are basically good, that they were only conned. Well, most of them weren't. They saw exactly who this monster is and they voted for the destruction of our country.

And guess what? He's really going to try and do exactly what he said he was going to do. There's no flip-flopping/pivoting or anything else.

The people Hillary identified (not insulted, identified) were already lost. All she did was run a rational campaign, with good ideas for moving the country forward.

There's no way to present issues any other way than explaining them. How progressives are supposed to sell our ideas means nothing, because we've just seen that ideas mean nothing. If they do, then there are a lot of extremely shitty people out there.

Fortunately there are also lots of wonderful people, and I'm thankful I'm surrounded by them. I live a charmed life.


----------



## NYC Composer

No. I want to believe that it's possible 50 million people also believe different things than you do, and I don't see the world as black and white as you do. An excellent example-I disagree with you but don't call your view of the world bullshit.

One of the truly baffling things for me to observe about intelligent people in this forum is exemplified by watching you and Jimmy present your world views with such unflinching rectitude-it's as if you both believe there couldn't POSSIBLY be a SINGLE polemical thing about your opinions, nor your presentation of them. 

Nice cherry picking of my last response, btw-you responded to one word-"inflexible."


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Even more ridiculous than when you kept repeating that false equivalence during normal times when I'd call a spade a fucking shovel.

You act like everything this disgusting pig stands for - the racism, etc. - is just a matter of opinion. Don't like Jews? That's fine, it's just your opinion. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, right? People are mad, so it's fine for them to vote for the destruction of our democracy.

You believe that being nice to people with stupid opinions is more likely to change their minds. When has that ever happened?

What you're missing is how much room for rational disagreement there is. You've never seen me dismiss a single rational opinion in your life! Only idiotic ones. Yes, sometimes it really is that polarized, and you know it.


----------



## NYC Composer

No Nick, you can't have read the things I have said and come out with the opinion that I excused all of that behavior, so I'll have to assume you're focusing on the bits you don't like, the idea that different cultures respond to different things.

I'll maintain that "basket of deplorables" and your defense of such a statement was, and will be in the future, consequential, not just the statement but the attitude, and like you, I have been consistent in my views.

Like I said earlier (one of the things you ignored) your way may be the right way forward. The jury is out for now. That's why I opened this discussion as I opened the one about the existential threat that Trump presents, back in March.


----------



## KEnK

Nick Batzdorf said:


> You just want to believe 50+ million people are basically good, that they were only conned. Well, most of them weren't. They saw exactly who this monster is and they voted for the destruction of our country.
> 
> And guess what? He's really going to try and do exactly what he said he was going to do. There's no flip-flopping/pivoting or anything else.


So then Nick-
You gonna sign "The Petition"?
I'm surprised I haven't already seen it at the Berkeley Bowl.
But I look forward to making my mark and voting on it when it shows up on the ballot.
F*** the Gop.
Let's take California and go home


----------



## NYC Composer

Are we seceding, KenK?


----------



## KEnK

That would be my choice Larry.
The GOP has spent 35 years destroying everything America has ever been.
California and whoever joins us can continue the American Dream w/o them-
No way to do it w/ them.
We wouldn't be the 1st big country to break apart-
It's already pretty much that way-
That's my take on it.

Possibly things will get so bad that people en masse will wise up.
But considering the last 35 years I'm not holding my breath.


----------



## NYC Composer

Okay. Good luck with that.


----------



## KEnK

Well, "luck" isn't required, just math (as in electoral)
There may very well be a large enough movement in enough states
where a strong message gets sent to the GOP.
California, being the 5th or 6th largest economy in the world doesn't need S. Carolna,
or Az. or Fla- etc.

They want to live in a Fascist State- let 'em
Let's see how it works out for 'em.

As for me- that Pig spent 2 years making sure I would never think of him
as anything other then a vile unqualified moron.
He succeeded.


----------



## NYC Composer

I agree with you on that last. Secession, not so much. The practical application of treaties between 50 nation-states seem pretty daunting to me, and I'm not sure about symbolic victories. 

Regardless, what I meant by "good luck" was that I hope you achieve your objective, or at least satisfaction, as a result of the petition initiative.


----------



## KEnK

re: Secession-
It's only an undertone at the present time- but I'm surprised to see it talked about here and there.
Still to nascent of an idea to be called a movement, but movements spring from ideas.
Maybe Vermont or Washington will precede California in momentum.
But think about the strength of even a loss at the polls.
Not a victory, but perhaps tens of thousands of people saying "No", and in a nearly unprecedented manner- might be just a powerful enough message to be heard.

As to 50 nation states- to early to start counting,
but as Don Rumsfeld said, "Democracy is a messy business".


----------



## NYC Composer

Boy, you really gotta miss the heady days of Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Bremer et al now that we have The Donald and Bannon. Just when you think it can't get worse (sigh)...


----------



## Soundhound

It's a straight downward line: Reagan (horrible) W (disaster) Trump (nightmare). We're not moving back to California till the end of 2017. Please don't secede till we're safely home! Then I'm all for it.


----------



## chimuelo

California should do thier own thing.
Fortune 500s have set up headquarters in Nevada for the last 15 years.
Microsoft, Intel, Cisco, Apple, Tesla, etc.
Nevada is the only true Progressive State in the nation.

We'll get the entire defense industry too, along with Aero Space.

Nevada has gone from 92% federally owned to 65% as BLM had to accommodate the exodus.

By all means speed it up.
NAMM in Vegas means sexy booth babes again.
I miss old California before it became a Police State.

Do they even film movies there anymore or were they taxed out of the State too?

Ben Afleck can be President...


----------



## NYC Composer

But it's NOT been a straight line, and that's the schizophrenic nature of the country. Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama, Trump is the line. To some people that may look straight...not to me.


----------



## KEnK

Soundhound said:


> Please don't secede till we're safely home! Then I'm all for it.


California will welcome refugees from everywhere.
Including Trumpland.


NYC Composer said:


> Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama, Trump is the line. To some people that may look straight...not to me.


You left out Nixon. We wouldn't have gotten to Carter w/o Nixon, and wouldn't have gotten to Reagan w/o Carter. 
It's all Nixon's fault. So what's after Trump? How far can the pendulum swing in the other direction?
That's why I think it has to break (finally)


----------



## chimuelo

Im starting to like that idea more and more.
You really need the San Joaquin Valley though.
That would be the clincher though.
If they chose to go the Nevada way there goes the massive Agro Industry.

But it would really ignite a competition to out produce others.
Imagine all of the jobs that requires.

It could be a great test for Washington Portland New York.
Maybe even take back Long Beach from China.


----------



## Soundhound

it is a straight line if you look at the gop, which is what i meant. And as KenK says, extends back to Nixon. remember how glad the country was to be finally rid of richard nixon? well the gop has gotten worse every time they've held the white house since. and the red scare archie bunker bigots that populated the republican party of our youth never went away, their fearful ignorant views were just marginalized over time. now they're back. american flags never looked more like swastikas than they do now.




NYC Composer said:


> But it's NOT been a straight line, and that's the schizophrenic nature of the country. Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama, Trump is the line. To some people that may look straight...not to me.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

KEnK said:


> So then Nick-
> You gonna sign "The Petition"?
> I'm surprised I haven't already seen it at the Berkeley Bowl.
> But I look forward to making my mark and voting on it when it shows up on the ballot.
> F*** the Gop.
> Let's take California and go home



I signed it. 

It's farfetched, but if things get really bad, who knows. Maybe Canada could become an inverted U. On the west, Washington, Oregon, and California will join; on the east, all the New England states that didn't go red plus New York.

Well, maybe we don't need Maine and New Hampshire, because the margins were too thin there.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

This is why I say it's not a serious debate with two sides worthy of respect for differences of opinion. I mean, what become of the American right before this is only to be taken seriously to the extent that so many people vote for it; everything they've wanted to do is idiotic. But at this point there aren't two sides other than normal vs. fucking hopeless.

http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/28/13728086/trump-literally-and-seriously


----------



## JonFairhurst

Back on this quote:


Nick Batzdorf said:


> ...all she did was run a rational campaign, with good ideas for moving the country forward.



I think that Hillary had good policies. Unfortunately, she lacked vision. Or at least, she didn't convey a vision to voters.

Her competition had vision. It was a crappy vision with walls, deportation, lists, torture, and police-state searches - and it was based on lies about the current state of things, but he had vision for change.

Bernie had vision. It was about economic fairness and increased taxes on the super-wealthy. Yeah, everything came back to these economic terms, so it was a bit narrow, but he had vision.

For Hillary, there was more a feeling of status quo. Yes, she had a number of detailed, practical policies that were well thought out, but it didn't feel like, "there is a big problem today, and tomorrow the world will look different." The stronger feeling is that her vision was that she would be president. For some, the vision was to break the glass ceiling. But the image of a "pant suit nation" isn't very compelling for an unemployed iron worker.

The right wing has longstanding vision: NO new taxes. (And ZERO capital gains and inheritance taxes.) NO gun laws. NO abortions. NO safety net. NO health care. NO gay anything. PRIVATIZE schools. PRIVATIZE social security. A "CHRISTIAN" nation. Poll people on these individual items, and you will find that they are not only not popular, but they are highly opposed by some. That said, they are HIGHLY supported by some as well. Like them or not, these positions are simple to present and to understand.

The left plays defense: SOME taxes, but not too many. SOME gun laws. SOME abortions. SOME safety net. SOME health care. Some LGBT support. CONTINUATION of public schools, social security, and medicare.

The strongest concrete positions for Democrats are: LEGAL abortions, LEGAL gay marriage, and LEGAL pot. As shown by the GOP, it doesn't matter if everybody supports the positions. Plant a flag on a hill and fight for it. And how did Hillary play it? She was strong on legal abortion, shy on LGBT issues, and against legalizing pot at the federal level. Weak.

Yes, she had a number of policies, but they were presented in a wonky way that tried not to offend anybody. Pfft.

In the past, the left had clear goals, like breaking up trusts, laws that allowed unions to form, the 40-hour work week, minimum wage (hyah! - TMBG), zero segregation, etc. (And unlike abortion, gay marriage, and pot, these goals actually benefited rust belt workers.)

So forget about the latest tweet from ass-lips. Ignore the trolls. Don't worry about what's popular. We need clear, concrete, visionary goals that make a significant difference for American families. And in support of those goals, we can present our values and virtues. 

Let's stop playing defense. Let's stop triangulating. Let's present a vision. Let's lead.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

And yet Hillary won the Democratic primary against an excellent, extremely appealing, exciting candidate who laid out the problems very clearly. Sanders is a much better speaker as well.

Why did she win? My guess is because intelligent wonk is appealing to people who look more closely. Her policies weren't triangulating, they had serious justification behind them. Example: a $12 minimum wage rather than a $15 one. I didn't agree with that, in fact I think it should be $20, but there were very reasonable reasons for $12.

Presenting a clear vision works for conservatives, because the entire content of their brains fits on a bumper sticker. The real problems of the world don't work that way.

That's always been the problem. We use our brains to decide, the other side doesn't.

And what's going on now proves it. I want desperately to see something positive, but it's just not there. The country is very likely to fall apart. It won't happen right away, but what's going on is just dismaying at every turn.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

And by the way, Larry, this is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. I don't insult people who disagree with me about the best solutions for problems, I insult total idiots who aren't even in the game.


----------



## JonFairhurst

Here's a vision: A minimum of five years in prison for those who commit serious fraud. Do it three times? Life.

Are we not sick to death of BS ads. Of spam. Of people trying to take our money while providing nothing? The vision is to reward honorable business by removing their dishonorable competition. Drain the swamp.

Oh, and criminals who hide behind the corporate veil? No more. The fraudsters who opened fake accounts at Wells Fargo? How about we give those jobs to honest people? And we can have more jobs for white collar crime fighters.

Extreme. Maybe? But let the right wing go on the defensive for a change. Let them defend the rights of fraudulent criminals.


----------



## NYC Composer

So Nick, are you saying I'm a total idiot who's not in the game?

As to Hillary, I think she won the primary because most Dems thought she was the one who could win, a pragmatic choice. 

Jon, the problem about banking is-you have to get the people at the top who overtly or covertly formed the policy to defraud people, not the ones who were pressured into carrying the policy out. Yes, any punishment of "white collar criminals" needs to have jail time attached-would that it had happened in 2005-2008. Meanwhile, I might have missed it, but I didn't see any of that in HRC's platform, but it's a good thought for 2020.

I don't want to give up and Cali isn't going to secede. I'd love to hear more practical discussion that addresses the thread title.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

You're not a total idiot, Larry.


----------



## NYC Composer

Cute!

You're not completely awful, Nick.


----------



## JonFairhurst

The anti-fraud thing is just one idea. It identifies a problem, presents a concrete solution, identifies an enemy, and is bold. It doesn't happen on its own. But if party leaders push it, it becomes part of the narrative. 

That position would have gone a long way toward fighting the "corrupt Hillary" and "Goldman Sachs speech" thing.

But that's just one idea. Any others?


----------



## NYC Composer

Not that I think he'll do it, but Trump has taken up one of my faves-a moratorium on government workers getting jobs as lobbyists-5 years.

Public campaign financing.

Reinstituting Glass-Steagall.

Congress to go on National healthcare. Glass wall of stock ownership for Congress.

Term limits-maybe. Still chewing on that.

An actual, laid out comprehensive job training /infrastructure program. Trump will try to pass one. We'll see.

Single payer. Nothing else makes sense.

(To name a few.)


----------



## JonFairhurst

Good ideas.

On public campaign financing, congressional healthcare, congressional stock ownership, and term limits, these are all "inside baseball." I think they can be effective when you can identify the bad guy and when you can make a "NO" or "ALL" ask. They're less effective when trimming the edges. And they can be hard to sell to a party when party members might lose individually.

On Glass-Steagall, the proposition needs to be reformulated. Few (including me) understand all of its provisions and ramifications. Can it be boiled down to a "NO MORE ..."? From experience here in a "voter initiative" state, it's hard to get people to vote "YES" on anything that is confusing. "NO" votes are much easier. Black and white questions with clear antagonists and concrete results are best.

On job training and infrastructure, that can be bipartisan. The question is which project, how much money, etc. Not much of an all or nothing view here. No enemies. However, an anti-fraud position could work well in conjunction with this. Yes to the funds. Jail to those who abuse the funds. That might help give confidence to spend more - and it could help fight Trump kleptocracy.

Bernie pushed for single-payer. Hillary pushed back. Her (solid) reasoning is that the ACA was tough to get and we need to improve it - and if we don't support it, the GOP will take it all away. Well... after the election, the GOP is likely to take it all away anyway. Once it's gone, single-payer can be the battle cry. But not just yet...

Not mentioned is college tuition. Bernie pushed it. Hillary supported it too, but it got buried. It's a great topic, as we can demand "100% free" to some level and for some circumstances. The enemy is student debt and predatory lenders. Those who oppose it hate American students and youth. This is a winner.

Once the key positions are identified. The Dems need to develop the value stories that define who we are. And then these few positions need to be hammered over and over as demands. Demonize those who are in opposition. Show their dearth of values. And it doesn't matter how these issues poll today. Be fearless. Fight. Lead. If the positions are valid and the values solid, we will build support.

Oh, and it's good to ask for things you don't expect to get. That provides an issue that never goes away. And that provides a consistent identity and long-term constituents. If not, and the party achieves all of its goals, then we are back to playing defense and trying to keep the gains from slipping away. As we've seen, it's hard to motivate people to march in the streets for the status quo.


----------



## procreative

As a UK resident, heres my take on the US elections:

At first it seemed the obvious choice was Hillary a chance to have the first female president. Once the impossible became possible that a man with no established political background could challenge, it seemed the only choice.

But then came the doubts:

1. The Democrat record on all their promises* the NHS(US) that was a fiasco, the lack of real support of the Black voters by a Black president, the Tony Blair style statesmanlike pronouncements on everything from world peace to Brexit.

2. The shocking treatment Hillary dished out to Jennifer Flowers and the other ladies, trying to denigrate their stories, ruin them financially, denying her husband's Trump like behaviour. A woman trashing womankind for political ambition.

* A familiar story in the UK, we had 10 years of Tony Blair grinning like a lunatic, promising education, education, education, jobs, helping the poor. All the while privatising the NHS by stealth and sending us to a phony war on lies.

We have had years and years just like the US of career politicians who all go to the same schools, universities etc.

While we are sick of the right, the left are just as duplicitous if not worse. They eulogise about state schools and council estates while sending their darlings to the best private schools and living rough in leafy Islington and Highgate. They curse the bankers and tax dodgers while screwing expenses and mortages for second homes.

For example:

Tony Blair = Nick Clegg = David Cameron = Boris Johnson = Nigel Farage (same background of public School and what you would call Ivy League Universities)

So when Brexit came up, we were told "we know whats best for you, we'll let you have a vote because we know you will vote to stay in anyway". So guess what we stuck it to them.

They didn't like it so now they are trying everything to delay it, renegotiate it, tar it with claims of racism. The media over here have before and after constantly tried to criticise and present a biased coverage. And then Obama stuck his nose in saying little old "Great Britain" should do whats best for them and stay in.

Too many years of the majority being told whats best for them by an elite minority.

Democracy in the west is an elaborate illusion, a choice between 2 sides of virtually the same crap with a different scent. I mean seriously what kind of choice is it between Clinton and Trump? 

The elite, smarmy, over blow dried career politician who says the same old cliched lets work together crap vs the divisive, inexperienced, chauvinistic relic with bad hair? What a choice!

Same way last election we had a Right Wing Eton Boy vs a Left wing Highgate Luvvy (the only difference was one went to a Private Fee Paying School and the other a top end Public School)**

** Not to be confused with the US public schools the complete opposite!

Mark my words Le Pen will be next, all because history has never been learned from. Adolf rose just because people were not listened to or taken care of and were duped into dangerous ideas from initially valid frustrations.

Simply getting up on a podium and stating "let help make USA great again" means nothing. The Black and Hispanic voters stayed away due to Obama's empty rhetoric, and thats why Hilary lost.


----------



## Soundhound

Okay, how about: NO guns, NO religion in government (ever ever ever), NO money in politics (federally funded elections), FREE Healthcare for all, FREE education for all, JOBS and RETRAINING for all (changing the infrastructure over to renewable energy is a gigantic job), TRUST in the media (bring back the fairness doctrine), NO more banking thieves getting off free (reinstate glass steagall and empower Elizabeth Warren).

For starters.

<<
Good ideas.

On public campaign financing, congressional healthcare, congressional stock ownership, and term limits, these are all "inside baseball." I think they can be effective when you can identify the bad guy and when you can make a "NO" or "ALL" ask. They're less effective when trimming the edges. And they can be hard to sell to a party when party members might lose individually.

On Glass-Steagall, the proposition needs to be reformulated. Few (including me) understand all of its provisions and ramifications. Can it be boiled down to a "NO MORE ..."? From experience here in a "voter initiative" state, it's hard to get people to vote "YES" on anything that is confusing. "NO" votes are much easier. Black and white questions with clear antagonists and concrete results are best.

On job training and infrastructure, that can be bipartisan. The question is which project, how much money, etc. Not much of an all or nothing view here. No enemies. However, an anti-fraud position could work well in conjunction with this. Yes to the funds. Jail to those who abuse the funds. That might help give confidence to spend more - and it could help fight Trump kleptocracy.

Bernie pushed for single-payer. Hillary pushed back. Her (solid) reasoning is that the ACA was tough to get and we need to improve it - and if we don't support it, the GOP will take it all away. Well... after the election, the GOP is likely to take it all away anyway. Once it's gone, single-payer can be the battle cry. But not just yet...

Not mentioned is college tuition. Bernie pushed it. Hillary supported it too, but it got buried. It's a great topic, as we can demand "100% free" to some level and for some circumstances. The enemy is student debt and predatory lenders. Those who oppose it hate American students and youth. This is a winner.

Once the key positions are identified. The Dems need to develop the value stories that define who we are. And then these few positions need to be hammered over and over as demands. Demonize those who are in opposition. Show their dearth of values. And it doesn't matter how these issues poll today. Be fearless. Fight. Lead. If the positions are valid and the values solid, we will build support.

Oh, and it's good to ask for things you don't expect to get. That provides an issue that never goes away. And that provides a consistent identity and long-term constituents. If not, and the party achieves all of its goals, then we are back to playing defense and trying to keep the gains from slipping away. As we've seen, it's hard to motivate people to march in the streets for the status quo.
>>


----------



## NYC Composer

I think single payer should be pushed and pushed. We have to remove the profit motive from healthcare, as it clearly does not work to serve people.

I don't think Obamacare is going away-you can't put the genie back in the bottle, take healthcare away from 25 million people, reinstate "pre-existing conditions" (what an inhuman ball of shit THAT concept is.) that said, Obamacare in its actual practice is an insane mess and a huge series of blowjobs for insurance companies. It was always going to need to be fixed. I think our platform fix is simple:single payer. Period. Let's catch up to civilization.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

They're going to try to repeal it, Larry, along with privatizing Medicare. The problem for the monsters is that there are no alternatives that don't involve spending money on the needy that they'd rather spend on tax cuts for the rich.

I predict you will not hear anything about single-payer - which doesn't bother me, because I don't see a good path to get there. But I am in favor of preserving the ACA and Medicare. We're going to hear a caricature of Orwellian talk to try and sell this as part of the destruction of America.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Soundhound, I like your ideas.


----------



## NYC Composer

Nick, if they repeal, whatever they recreate will not take away the things I mentioned-and that's what Obama accomplished, which is part of his legacy.

I wasn't saying we'll hear anything about single payer from the left or right at this moment. I'm suggesting it should be an intractable part of the 2020 progressive platform going forward.

Medicare won't be touched. The grey revolution is more than they want to deal with.

Btw, I think the idea of a centrist like Romney as Secretary of State is a headfake.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

The point is that if you repeal any of it, the whole thing will fall apart. There is no alternative to the famous three-legged stool. If you want to cover everyone, including people with medical conditions, everyone has to pay in, and those who can't afford to pay in have to be subsidized. Take away any of those and the whole thing unravels.

The Republicans are going to try and repeal Medicare. You'll see. They just don't care.

They're punishing Romney for insulting the orange asshole, making him apologize to be considered - and then they'll reject him. Only crazy people get to be in this administration.


----------



## NYC Composer

Oh, I think all sorts of thoughtless crap will go on with regards to the ACA. We'll see how it turns out.

Medicare-well, I know Ryan's plan, but...naaaah. Again, we'll see.

We're agreed about the humiliation of Romney. Funny that he doesn't see it coming.


----------



## NYC Composer

Added to my list-voter education and registration. Back in the day, voter registration was seen as key. I think with the voter supression efforts that are ongoing with more to come, registration is going to be key again. I think I may be doing a little traveling.


----------



## chimuelo

"They," are the GOP oh nervous ones.
Trump is not the GOP.

Yuze guys should come to terms the GOP isnt sure what it is, but Trump is not going to allow poor people, all created by Liberals, to suffer anymore than they did over the last 8 years.

Timr to come to grips the 2 partys that serve themselves and investors are over.

Maybe you should sit back and watch Trump beat the GOP leadership from his bully pulpit.

He smashed them up in the primary better than any Liberal ever dreamed was possible.

I stillbhowl when Bush found his balls, then came after Trump, and Trump say you got more energy now, I like that.

After the depressing Liberal recounting and continued suffering, which should fade out as investors start looking for lobbyists, soon to be extinct, then start protesting how they cant buy legislation.....

Soundhound.
Get you a Benjamin AirBow.
Take down some whacko in body armor at 50 yards.
Doesnt make any noise.
Shoot and scoot.
Arrows are costly but re usable.
No registration needed.
No ID needed.

They tske down Caribou, Bison and Elk with these.


----------



## NYC Composer

Deeply disturbing, resonant and prescient 1944 New York Times op-ed from a good man and a compassionate capitalist, former VP Henry Wallace:

http://www.truth-out.org/archive/component/k2/item/45300


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/28/u...ackage-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news


----------



## Soundhound

It describes modern American conservatism, capitalists and the gop to a tee. Depressing.



NYC Composer said:


> Deeply disturbing, resonant and prescient 1944 New York Times op-ed from a good man and a compassionate capitalist, former VP Henry Wallace:
> 
> http://www.truth-out.org/archive/component/k2/item/45300


----------



## NYC Composer

Nick Batzdorf said:


> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/28/u...ackage-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news



Makes your point, doesn't it. (sigh)


----------



## Soundhound

We are so hosed.


----------



## procreative

procreative said:


> The elite, smarmy, over blow dried career politician who says the same old cliched lets work together crap vs the divisive, inexperienced, chauvinistic relic with bad hair? What a choice!



I just realised the above could be Clinton/Trump or Trump/Clinton as either could apply to both!


----------



## Soundhound

Looking at our progressive to do list her this morning has a soupçon (thank you Jon Stewart) of denial. Trump is filling his cabinet with people who are committed to doing exactly the opposite. 

When/if the progressives ever gain control, this f*cker will have so many holes in it it could be at the bottom of the ocean.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Larry, I don't think anyone knows the depths of the horrors that are about to unfold.

Orange monsters + Republicans = total destruction.

Not hyperbole.


----------



## chimuelo

If the NYTimes printed how great things would be I would be horrified.
Since they are consistently misleading or flat out wrong, I welcome thier opinions on death destruction and mankinds decline.
This means everythings going to be fine.


----------



## JonFairhurst

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Larry, I don't think anyone knows the depths of the horrors that are about to unfold.
> 
> Orange monsters + Republicans = total destruction.
> 
> Not hyperbole.


*
How Stable are Democracies? Warning Signs are Flashing Red.*
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/29/world/americas/western-liberal-democracy.html?_r=0


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Jon, at this point I don't know whether that article is right or wrong. It's certainly not the first time anyone has pointed out that democracies aren't stable, although usually Russia is the big example (it was at first, before it became a kleptocracy under Putin, another disgusting asshole).

What I do know is this:

“Look, this stuff is already going on in other places,” Mr. Mounk added. “If there’s one task that we have as journalists, as academics, as thinkers, it’s to drive the stakes of this home for people.”

And that's what I find so discouraging, because a) our media has failed miserably time and time again; and b) Txxxx voters are totally impervious to reason.


----------



## JonFairhurst

This is part of why I think we need to focus on fighting fraud. It's something that the news media has typically done. (However, reduced news budgets have changed things recently.) It's also a way to redirect the angry voter. When the angry voter targets race (of some), religion (of some), the press, the healthcare system, schools, environmental protections, and the social safety net, they are acting like the character in the comic strip above. 

Maybe we need a nationwide anger management intervention. In the meantime, we need to redirect that anger at stuff that actually harms us.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

The place to direct anger today is that Txxxx MUST divest.

It's unConstitutional for him not to.


----------



## NYC Composer

Nick, do you have references that point to why it's unconstitutional?


----------



## JonFairhurst

_The President shall, at stated Times, receive for his Services, a Compensation, which shall neither be increased nor diminished during the Period for which he shall have been elected, and he shall not receive within that Period any other Emolument from the United States, or any of them._


----------



## NYC Composer

I'm not sure that addresses the issue, do you think it does?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

How does it not address the issue? The president can't take money from foreign governments. Period.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...rump-conflicts-interest-constitutional-crisis

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/21/us/politics/donald-trump-conflict-of-interest.html?_r=0

Emoluments is an archaic word, by the way. It means taking money and gifts.


----------



## NYC Composer

I knew that word. "Or any of them" I took to mean individual states of the Union, not foreign states.


----------



## chimuelo

So nice to see how laws are suddenly expected to be followed, and those demanding laws be enforced sat silently during Liberal lawlessness, fundraising and self enrichment.

Anyone notice the Clinton Foundation isnt getting msny donations lately?

What will happen to the children?


----------



## chimuelo

Lame Duck session is in turmoil.
Have Liberals done anything for thier suffering millions this year? Nope.

Trump hasnt even been sworn in yet but Ford has not moved its Louisville Plant and Carrier just decided to stay in Indiana.
He sure seems to be scaring the hell out of globalists from both parties.
Lobbyists are unsure of thier future.
Yet Liberals fight on and swear to represent themselves instead of us to the very end.

Sure would have been nice to avoid electing Trump to get this done.
Kieth Ellison wants a Louis Farakhan state and Cali wants its coastal counties to seceed. Please take Manhattan and Chicago with you.
Think of the billions saved for working families.

Bring it on.


----------



## NYC Composer

Nick Batzdorf said:


> How does it not address the issue? The president can't take money from foreign governments. Period.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...rump-conflicts-interest-constitutional-crisis
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/21/us/politics/donald-trump-conflict-of-interest.html?_r=0
> 
> Emoluments is an archaic word, by the way. It means taking money and gifts.


Thanks, that makes it clearer.

Problem being-if he fucks up and is impeached, conservatives would be absolutely ecstatic with Pence, who they'd much rather have.


----------



## chimuelo

Pence is an insurance policy against a Trump assasination by traumatized Liberal hit men.
If Trump gets whacked, Liberal voters will be really screwed.


----------



## Baron Greuner

Bernie Sanders went odds on to get 'whacked' at one point, because the bookies took the view that Americans just weren't ready for a communist, Jewish President from NY.

I think they were probably right.


----------



## NYC Composer

Please see thread title change and adjust your participation accordingly. All discussion pertinent to the OP is welcome. All baiting and sneering derision will be referred to moderation. Thank you.


----------



## chimuelo

Okay, 3rd title change will be respected.
I should always check the new titles before commenting on a way forward.

Should be a way forward for stopping Trump, or a way forward for traumatized Liberals only.

The thought of a new party emerging from the ashes left behind is offensive to the believers.
Their way forward guarantees a 2 term Trump.


----------



## Baron Greuner

Liberal Trauma Victims - What Now?


That would be my next title change here.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Larry, I figured *you'd* know the word. I just meant that people need to hear what this means very clearly.


----------



## chimuelo

Nancy Pelosi gets to keep her fundraising position after some real Liberals tried to remove the wealthy representative.
She has a new message....

Seems she wants to respect working Americans in the next election.
Wow, that's a new twist.


----------



## JonFairhurst

Yeah, there are three emoluments clauses. The first deals with Congress, the third with the president.

The second is this:
_No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State._


----------



## NYC Composer

Nick, are you the sole moderator here now?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

No, there are others. Don't worry. 

Chim, Nancy Pelosi is my hero. She's a national treasure.


----------



## NYC Composer

I wasn't worried a bit, it was a question.

Hannes has said he dropped out.


----------



## chimuelo

Nick Batzdorf said:


> No, there are others. Don't worry.
> 
> Chim, Nancy Pelosi is my hero. She's a national treasure.



I use to admire her.
But once I read her strong arming tactics, and how she dissed Tulsi, I figured she should enjoy her beautiful family in Cali and call it quits.
But Liberals seem to need hundreds of millions, for what I don't know, they can't keep their Senate or Congressional seats.

Once things is certain though, you will not find a better shape on a 78 year old woman.

Also worth mentioning, when I see her speak at womens groups, and private functions she is so relaxed, well spoken, no rhetorical nonsense and jive, and I enjoy listening to her.

But when speaking for Liberals in D.C. she talks stupid crap, disses anyone that disagrees and always has that wide eyed look as if the Hindenberg is landing on her...

Who knows, maybe she will finally pay her Grape Pickers Union wage like everyone else in Napa Valley does....

2 more years left, I do wish she can achieve something.
To quit or be removed is not in her best interests, so get to work girl.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Yup (Larry). And I was kidding about not worrying.


----------



## woodsdenis

Thoughts on this. According to this report the possibility that 15 electoral college voters will not vote for Trump and are actively canvasing others to do the same


----------



## NYC Composer

Denis-in my opinion, a fantasy.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Thoughts on it? I don't get it.


----------



## woodsdenis

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Thoughts on it? I don't get it.


Thoughts on according to this report the possibility that 15 electoral college voters will not vote for Trump and are actively canvasing others to do the same . Seems very far fetched but hey what hasn't been this election.


----------



## Soundhound

The littlest trump goes to my high school. These are dark days indeed.


----------



## Soundhound

I was just sitting in an airport, cnn blaring out trumps hyena of a voice, Steven minuchin chosen for treasury secy, Goldman Sachs vampires singing his praises, mitt romney kissing trumps ass. For years of this nightmare? Really?!!??


----------



## chimuelo

Liberal elites just lost and can't understand why.
Stenny Hoyer stops in at a truck stop in Nebraska and orders Eggs Benedict, then becomes dismayed that it's not served.


----------



## Baron Greuner

Help! Help! I'm a liberal trauma victim! Help!

Hahahahah

We've had a Goldman Sachs guy in charge of the finances here for years. I may have mentioned it before. Hahaha.

Looking forward to watching your Goldman Sachs guy put you through the the mincer. And he will. Experience talking here. You'll find out out soon enough.


----------



## chimuelo

Goldman Sachs Liberals and Conservatives often become Senators, Governors, etc.
Jon Corzine was a typical Wall Street Liberal.
Lost his bid in Jersey for Governor after losing his Senate seat.
Went back to Wall Street and "lost" 1.5 Billion of investors money @ MF Global.
He was from Goldman Sachs.
Eric Holder was forced to hold a mock trial where the Globalist was found not guilty.
The money was definitely missing, IIRC they invested in Greek Bonds, HRC's son n law lost 24,000,000 in his hedge fund doing the same.
But since the money couldn't be found the Honorable Liberal was found not guilty.
They knew the money was gone, just couldn't find it.

Innocent of all "charges" ( As long as an investment in a selected candidates campaign was offered up).

It seems the Bilderbergs and Rothschilds get their guys in regardless of what temporary occupant sits in the Oval Office.

So Wall Street is the Way Forward again.....


----------



## Soundhound

We're so lucky to have an experienced person here to tell us that having a wall street parasite as head of treasury is a bad idea. if i put this pretentious twat on ignore eventually the whole thread will be everyone ignoring everyone else. which is kinda cool.


----------



## woodsdenis

Soundhound said:


> We're so lucky to have an experienced person here to tell us that having a wall street parasite as head of treasury is a bad idea. if i put this pretentious twat on ignore eventually the whole thread will be everyone ignoring everyone else. which is kinda cool.


Well I'll have to guess the who the pretentious twat is as I have him on ignore.


----------



## Soundhound

life without a little mystery is no life at all. 



woodsdenis said:


> Well I'll have to guess the who the pretentious twat is as I have him on ignore.


----------



## Baron Greuner

Local English liberal trauma victims have been directed to an old disused clap clinic for counselling. Yes, even 3000 miles away, almost by osmosis, these poor, poor people have been sucked into liberal trauma. But I am not surprised because the USA has always exported good things to the UK for many years.


----------



## Soundhound

twat now on ignore


----------



## chimuelo

A way forward for putting people on ignore...

Trump was actually getting advice from Timothy Geitner (aka Robert Stack from the Untouchables).

Geithners book is really good.
Few people probably know his history, upbringing, experience and speaks Russian, Farsi, Mandarin, Espanol and pinche Englaise....

Most effective Treasury Head we had for decades.
Jack Lew was on Wall Street taking tax payers bonuses when he was hired. Had to divest from offshore tax havens, etc. to replace Geitner.

Record number or Businesses and Corporations left the USA under his tenure.

Let's get Warren to run Treasury.
Be great to use affirmative action laws and looks good having a Cherokee woman there shaking her fist at people as they laugh at her and walk with a 144,000,000 bonus for messing with Warren Buffets Bank.

Another cool way forward...


----------



## Vischebaste

Baron Greuner said:


> Local English liberal trauma victims have been directed to an old disused clap clinic for counselling. Yes, even 3000 miles away, almost by osmosis, these poor, poor people have been sucked into liberal trauma. But I am not surprised because the USA has always exported good things to the UK for many years.



Is somebody feeding you a bun every time you type the word "liberal"?


----------



## NYC Composer

I don't put anybody on ignore. I just stopped reading the words, which in one case are the theoretical biting screeds from a bitter old guy and in the other case are the waste of a good mind. Neither will address the topic, so I have no interest in responding...for me now, it's skip to the next post.

Anyway, I'm glad the Trump populist revolution has brought in some real representatives of the working man-Steve Mnuchin, Betsey DeVoss (one of the inheritors of the Amway fortune, so apropos) that great man of the people Wilbur Ross. I'm a little worried about Secretary of State though-last I knew, neither Mitt nor Rudy was a billionaire. They'd both stick out like a sore thumb.
Also, Ben Carson, that great urban planner? He's probably not worth more than 20 or 30 million. How the heck is HE going to fit in??

I hope the press, what's left of it, actually follows these people as they repeal Dodd-Frank and let the banks and insurance companies run rampant casinos again and repeal any small hint of regulations that destroy water and air, but probably not. 20 years from now I foresee plutocrats walking around in portable oxygen tents and drinking water from their own carefully maintained aquifers. The working man will be grateful for his job as he and his family live shorter lives due to toxins. Future's so bright...

Marching seems like a better and better idea, especially if it can be the largest one in history. The "Fuck the 1% Takeover" March. Off with their heads!


----------



## chimuelo

Americans want a good economy.
Who cares which billionaires Trump hires to do it.

We got 4 years to see if a con artist businessmen is better at targeted spending than our professors lawyers and Liberal elites.

Judging by the last 8 years of Liberals and thier investors getting rich it shouldn't be very hard.

I can't wait for 2020.
Going to put my Grandson in St. Thomas Aquinas since I smell a roaring economy.

Thanks to DeVoss the Department of Indoctrination will have competition.
Competition breeds success.

Cheer up guys...


----------



## Baron Greuner

There hasn't been as much fun as this since Mercedes McCambridge threw all of Joan Crawford's costumes outta the car during the making of Jonny Guitar.

It's great to see these fuckhead liberals spout personal venom because previous exposure shows they mostly know fuck all about music. The biggest phalanx twat collective sitting at the back of the class completely out of touch with reality as more denial sets in.
Get back in your box where you belong.


----------



## Soundhound

i'll march in that one.



NYC Composer said:


> I don't put anybody on ignore. I just stopped reading the words, which in one case are the theoretical biting screeds from a bitter old guy and in the other case are the waste of a good mind. Neither will address the topic, so I have no interest in responding...for me now, it's skip to the next post.
> 
> Anyway, I'm glad the Trump populist revolution has brought in some real representatives of the working man-Steve Mnuchin, Betsey DeVoss (one of the inheritors of the Amway fortune, so apropos) that great man of the people Wilbur Ross. I'm a little worried about Secretary of State though-last I knew, neither Mitt nor Rudy was a billionaire. They'd both stick out like a sore thumb.
> Also, Ben Carson, that great urban planner? He's probably not worth more than 20 or 30 million. How the heck is HE going to fit in??
> 
> I hope the press, what's left of it, actually follows these people as they repeal Dodd-Frank and let the banks and insurance companies run rampant casinos again and repeal any small hint of regulations that destroy water and air, but probably not. 20 years from now I foresee plutocrats walking around in portable oxygen tents and drinking water from their own carefully maintained aquifers. The working man will be grateful for his job as he and his family live shorter lives due to toxins. Future's so bright...
> 
> Marching seems like a better and better idea, especially if it can be the largest one in history. The "Fuck the 1% Takeover" March. Off with their heads!


----------



## woodsdenis

Trump voters.


----------



## Soundhound

i've been living in red state america the last five months. i've been back to nyc for a few short trips, and i'm back in california for a few days for the first time since moving to georgia. with apologies to the theme of this thread, i can't wait to move back. there's a weird incuriousness in Amurika. the people are perfectly nice, people are people... maybe it's being there in a time when the division between the cultures is so stark. i have no interest in shooting animals and want nothing to do with religion, and i've yet to meet anyone who's fun to sit around and shoot the shit with. it really is a different country, and i don't get it at all.


----------



## NYC Composer

See, I pretty much do.

I was born in Manhattan as a happy accident, just where my mother happened to be. She grew up in working class Brooklyn and never went to college. My dad grew up in the Bronx, and was the first of his generation to go to college, then on to NYU law. He only practiced a few years then died of a congenital heart disease at 35, leaving his wife with 3 kids and no money. In the interim, he had met a guy at school who became his best friend. Guy was from way upstate New York, and my father, the Bronx boy, fell in love with "the country" and moved us there when I was 3. That's where I spent my life til 18, and I also used it as a home base while I was on the road for almost 7 years. My mother and stepfather are finally selling their place there and moving permanently to Fla. They can't get around much.

All that to say that though I'm coming up on my 38th year in NYC, I've been intimately acquainted with both urban and rural lives, which furthers my amusement with people talking about shit they have no idea about.

To your "incurious" comment-I've found it to be true. I have cousins upstate who I visit a few times a year. They are truly lovely people. Their concerns are local and they know and care little about the world beyond. However, they always know who's sleeping with who locally.


----------



## Soundhound

Pretty much explains it. Who could have fallen for what Trump was selling? Stupid people. Those are not smart people.



woodsdenis said:


> Trump voters.


----------



## Soundhound

And as I walked around Venice today, the hipsters who would normally get on my nerves, felt like a breath of fresh air. Tribalism's a bitch ain't it? But there's something else and I think it is a sense of curious minds. I'm glad you get it, I don't. I mean I see it, I feel like I know what it is, partly parochialism, partly a sense of home. What I mean is I don't feel at home there. It feels claustrophobic. Phobic in a variety of ways, an aversion to things outside immediate experience.





NYC Composer said:


> See, I pretty much do.
> 
> I was born in Manhattan as a happy accident, just where my mother happened to be. She grew up in working class Brooklyn and never went to college. My dad grew up in the Bronx, and was the first of his generation to go to college, then on to NYU law. He only practiced a few years then died of a congenital heart disease at 35, leaving his wife with 3 kids and no money. In the interim, he had met a guy at school who became his best friend. Guy was from way upstate New York, and my father, the Bronx boy, fell in love with "the country" and moved us there when I was 3. That's where I spent my life til 18, and I also used it as a home base while I was on the road for almost 7 years. My mother and stepfather are finally selling their place there and moving permanently to Fla. They can't get around much.
> 
> All that to say that though I'm coming up on my 38th year in NYC, I've been intimately acquainted with both urban and rural lives, which furthers my amusement with people talking about shit they have no idea about.
> 
> To your "incurious" comment-I've found it to be true. I have cousins upstate who I visit a few times a year. They are truly lovely people. Their concerns are local and they know and care little about the world beyond. However, they always know who's sleeping with who locally.


----------



## NYC Composer

Tribalism IS a bitch. I prefer to try to avoid it despite provocations.


----------



## Soundhound

I prefer to avoid it, and I get along with pretty much everybody. What I'm talking about here is the divide in the cultures, for me. Meaning where I'd feel comfortable living. This particular part of red state America doesn't feel like a place I'd want to live. I've spent a fair amount of time in red state america over my working life and there are plenty of places I've enjoyed, but right now I don't feel the urge to spend time around people whose lives are so circumscribed. Hard to breath.


----------



## NYC Composer

People, especially conservatives, fail to believe that I am as egalitarian as I say I am. That said, I actually believe that our lives are equally circumscribed, or if not equally perhaps differently circumscribed.


----------



## chimuelo

Yepp. 
Everybody is dumb except us.
Media parrots can have fun, their jobs are secure since the people they lie and deceive aren't going anywhere.
They want to watch more lies, listen to more experts getting it wrong, more videos of stupid people.

Makes them feel smart and informed.

Nobody expects Trump to keep half of his promises.
They just wanted the really smart wealthy folks who wasted 10 trillion dollars to lose.

Seems they are smarter than the losers wish they were.

Oh yes, the way forward again....
You have a chance to keep some real Liberals in office instead of the wealthiest liars.

I suggest thinking about how not to infuriate another 10 or 20 million people into removing what remains of the DNC.
Pelosi getting another 2 years will only allow her to do what she is best at. Fundraising.
But even so, the 4 million she directed to defeat Daryl Issa was just more wasted money some of her voters might have had a chance at for pre school for single mothers, etc.

And Daryl Issa is damn smart, but a thug who was forced into the military, or jail from Grand Theft Auto charges he was busted for in the West Coast Chop Shops of the 70s.
He did well teaching folks how to protect themselves against thieves like himself.
His patents made him quite wealthy.

What's next Keith Ellison at the DNC?

People in this thread could run the DNC better than these desperate race pandering, identity seeking idiots.

Trump is mopping up the floor and I only hope the GOP leaders like Ryan, McConnell and the other fossils get the boot.

America wants a party for Americans, why is this so hard to understand?

I hope "most" of yuze guys don't suffer too much longer.
We just might get an economic boom, and if you have children or grandchildren who cares which group, or persons caused the prosperity?

Cheerz


----------



## Soundhound

i've definitely been circumsized.  and there's no place more parochial than nyc. but it's different kind of circumscribed, and i prefer it. to each their own, i can live without what red state america has become, or has reverted to, or whatever it is. they can take their guns and god and shove it where the moon don't shine, as dick cavett so snottily said years ago.


----------



## NYC Composer

Burials or cremations for aborted fetuses in Texas! Gosh, what a party they're having in the Longhorn State:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/01/health/texas-abortion-fetal-burial-cremation-trnd/index.html


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

It's over. We are not united states anymore.

I don't want to hate over 60 million people in this country, but it gets harder and harder not to every day.

What a tragedy.


----------



## Soundhound

As has been said most succinctly and elegantly: fuck the heartland.



NYC Composer said:


> Burials or cremations for aborted fetuses in Texas! Gosh, what a party they're having in the Longhorn State:
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/01/health/texas-abortion-fetal-burial-cremation-trnd/index.html


----------



## NYC Composer

370 million people, give or take, yelling "you're not the boss of me!!!" at each other.


----------



## JonFairhurst

When they wrote the lyrics, "The eyes of Texas are upon you, all the live-long day" ...and people liked it and adopted it as an "official" song, everyone should have clued in to how authoritarian many can be.


----------



## Soundhound

Equating the two sides normalizes the fascists. I'm against that.



NYC Composer said:


> 370 million people, give or take, yelling "you're not the boss of me!!!" at each other.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

I don't want to, but I just can't help feeling the same way Soundhound does.

Seriously, how can the country survive? I don't feel any common bond with people that shitty. With California, New York, and other blue areas, yes, but what ideological bond do I have with a Txxxx voter?


----------



## Baron Greuner

I don't think you can survive. I think you're all going to die. (Just holds on to keeping straight face)


----------



## Soundhound

Right now I'm hoping for a worldwide depression. Meaning that's looking like the best that can be hoped for with these thieves and their moronic puppets running things. Angela Merkel is center right, and the insane reactionary right sees her as a leftie. My god they are stupid.

The downside is nuclear war. Trying to be positive. Half full!


----------



## Baron Greuner

I think people who try to force recounts, make a very strong case for legal euthanasia.


----------



## NYC Composer

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I don't want to, but I just can't help feeling the same way Soundhound does.
> 
> Seriously, how can the country survive? I don't feel any common bond with people that shitty. With California, New York, and other blue areas, yes, but what ideological bond do I have with a Txxxx voter?



You probably don't have an ideological bond. On the other hand, ideology can get out of hand. 

I think we agree that protecting the social safety net is a priority. That's because we share a compassion for the less fortunate and believe in a society in which those who have more help those who have less. If you think about it though, that's not really the issue that divides us ideologically. There is no lack of compassionate people in red states-churches and church groups are EVERYWHERE and do a lot of good work, and people in rural areas are, in my experience, locally pretty caring. The main disagreement is local/states vs centralized/federal. Religion and racism are divisive as well, obviously.

If vouchers took care of people as well as Medicare does, I'd be fine with vouchers. If Obamacare gets turned into TrumpCare and works better while covering more people, I'd be approving. I'm cynical about any of that happening considering the appointments being made.

I often write to form my thoughts so there's a fair amount of meandering, but as I'm writing now, I've realized what I'm most concerned about, and it isn't the kleptocracy or the dismantling of the social safety net. I'm more worried about Trump and all that he doesn't know, careening about blindly and putting us all (as in the entire planet) in tremendous danger. I'm more worried about how stupid and proudly low information he is than I am about his corruption or his ideological bent, because that's an immediate existential threat.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Larry, I fear you may misunderstand a few things.

First, the kleptocracy isn't just stealing, it's *the end of democracy.* The power goes to the banana republic leader and his cronies. And it's already starting with this stuff with the company in Indiana: bribe them with tax breaks (an ad hoc economic policy that can't work), threaten them with presidential displeasure so it's worth $60 million for a multi-billion company.

Of course, this was all political theater to distract from the total monsters he's nominating for his cabinet, just like his tweets.

Second, when I say "ideological bond," I'm talking about democracy and freedom. We share an ideological bond with every enlightened western-style democracy in that way. Yes, ideology is exactly the right word for what I'm saying; someone who can vote for Txxxx doesn't believe in any of the hard-won freedoms or the values we used to share.

That's why I say the country can't stick together anymore. The baseline is gone.

Third, there is no way to improve the basic structure of Obamacare! That's the famous 3-legged stool I just posted about a day or two ago, and it's nothing new: if everyone is to be covered, including sick people, everyone has to pay in (or face a penalty); and people who can't afford to pay in have to be subsidized.

These R-fux aren't in favor of a public option or socialized medicine, so the only alternative is for 5 million people to lose their health coverage - and these are the people who need it the most.

Paul Krugman just wrote about that in his NY X editorial this week.


----------



## Soundhound

I agree, Larry. I don't think he has an ideology. His ideology is himself: me me me. You know the old joke about him in an elevator in Trump tower. He's standing there and a beautiful woman gets in. The elevator begins going up and she turns to him and says, "oh mr trump i'm such a fan of yours, I'm just head over heels with your powerful self. Could I give you a blowjob?" He thinks for a moment and says. "hmm. What's in it for me?"

He's a cipher. Reagan and Bush were to lesser extents, they did the bidding of the people who put them in power. Neither were particularly intelligent, both were able to use small town charm to win votes.

The difference is Trump is such a weak, emotionally infantile person. He's going with what got him in power, and what little he knows (rich people are good). The people he's putting in power are going to rob the system blind domestically. Internationally, they're going to be incredibly aggressive. Both areas are existential threats.


----------



## Soundhound

In the interest of The Way Forward. I don't see how to talk to people who have drank the Trump koolaid, at this point. I think the opportunity will come when things really start happening. That's when discussion can begin it seems. If Trump voters don't care that Steve Minchin is treasury secretary, then next step is to see if they fall for whatever the cover story is as new policies start robbing them blind.


----------



## NYC Composer

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Larry, I fear you may misunderstand a few things.
> 
> First, the kleptocracy isn't just stealing, it's *the end of democracy.* The power goes to the banana republic leader and his cronies. And it's already starting with this stuff with the company in Indiana: bribe them with tax breaks (an ad hoc economic policy that can't work), threaten them with presidential displeasure so it's worth $60 million for a multi-billion company.
> 
> Of course, this was all political theater to distract from the total monsters he's nominating for his cabinet, just like his tweets.
> 
> Second, when I say "ideological bond," I'm talking about democracy and freedom. We share an ideological bond with every enlightened western-style democracy in that way. Yes, ideology is exactly the right word for what I'm saying; someone who can vote for Txxxx doesn't believe in any of the hard-won freedoms or the values we used to share.
> 
> That's why I say the country can't stick together anymore. The baseline is gone.
> 
> Third, there is no way to improve the basic structure of Obamacare! That's the famous 3-legged stool I just posted about a day or two ago, and it's nothing new: if everyone is to be covered, including sick people, everyone has to pay in (or face a penalty); and people who can't afford to pay in have to be subsidized.
> 
> These R-fux aren't in favor of a public option or socialized medicine, so the only alternative is for 5 million people to lose their health coverage - and these are the people who need it the most.
> 
> Paul Krugman just wrote about that in his NY X editorial this week.


Nick, rather than answer each of your points, let me ask you this- can you present a logical, non ideological argument to each of the points you raised?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Of course I can, Larry, but what do you want me to say?

I wrote three things.

1. This motherfucker is abusing his power already. They offered a company a tax break + "there will be consequences for any company moving overseas" - an abuse of his power even before he starts. That is what a kleptocracy looks like: the ruler makes the laws rather than abiding by the nation's laws.

2. America is a liberal democracy. We have an ideological bond with all the other enlightened democracies - Europe, Australia, even Israel. Txxxx has already demonstrated that he has no interest in any of that, and the R-fux don't appear willing to stand up to him. What else are you asking me to say about that?

3. Also not open to argument. The 3-legged stool is immutable, regardless of the health financing system we have. There is no "replace" strategy. It simply does not exist in this world.


Soundhound:



> I don't think he has an ideology.



Exactly, and that's why he's... what's the word for "dangerous" when it's actually happening?


----------



## NYC Composer

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Of course I can, Larry, but what do you want me to say?
> 
> I wrote three things.
> 
> 1. This motherfucker is abusing his power already. They offered a company a tax break + "there will be consequences for any company moving overseas" - an abuse of his power even before he starts. That is what a kleptocracy looks like: the ruler makes the laws rather than abiding by the nation's laws.
> 
> 2. America is a liberal democracy. We have an ideological bond with all the other enlightened democracies - Europe, Australia, even Israel. Txxxx has already demonstrated that he has no interest in any of that, and the R-fux don't appear willing to stand up to him. What else are you asking me to say about that?
> 
> 3. Also not open to argument. The 3-legged stool is immutable, regardless of the health financing system we have. There is no "replace" strategy. It simply does not exist in this world.
> 
> 
> Soundhound:
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly, and that's why he's... what's the word for "dangerous" when it's actually happening?



1. Is any of what he suggested to these companies illegal?

2. Our "ideological bond" has been fuzzy for a long time due to our inveterate capitalism. For better or for worse, it differentiates us from Europe. 

3. I don't understand the three legged stool as well as you do. I will educate myself before we speak about it again.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

1. Whether or not it's illegal, it's absolutely insane and totally unAmerican.

I just saw this Larry Summers article (it pays to follow these guys on Twitter, not for their comments necessarily but for the articles they link). This nails what I'm saying smack on the head, only much better: 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/12/02/why-trumps-carrier-deal-is-bad-for-america/?postshare=8291480707940043&tid=ss_tw&utm_term=.4589feff1b8d

2. You're right, of course, but we really do share basic democratic values with the EU countries, the UK, etc., despite any differences.

3. The stool applies even with socialized medicine. There are lots of devils in the details, of course! But it comes down to the same thing if you want everyone to have healthcare: everyone including healthy people has to pay in, and people who can't pay in have to be subsidized.


----------



## chimuelo

Interesting Larry Summers presided over watching GM get bailed out, shareholders shafted, and the UAW was handed ownership thanks to taxpayers.
He seems to have forgotten his "capitalistic" virtues until recently.

Maybe hes upset Trump might suceed at infrastructure where the Liberals failed the tax payers.
Liberals suceeded though, but I doubt the worshippers of wealthy whites would want to see a few examples of Liberal self enrichment projects.

I helped finish one.
Harry Reids bridge where he knew in advance of the stimulus, bought the property where the bridge was being built then sold the land back to us for millions more.

Pelosis train to her vineyards, Murthas Airport, billions for a failed website to Canadian campaign investors.
Guess thats all fine since its wealthy white Liberals version of capitalism.

Where were the complaints from worshippers of the wealthy white Liberals then?

Did Hispanics recieve tax payer bail outs at Solyndra?
No but we got to build things for the wealthy white Liberals.

White Power.....!!!

Dont quote me as the closed ears and minds of the offended losers might be traumatized....


----------



## NYC Composer

Nick-it's pleasurable and refreshing to have a substantive discussion with you.

1. Trump's Carrier deal destroyed capitalism? Please see 2008 "bank bailout." In 2007 (unfortunate timing) I took over our (my wife's and my) retirement portfolio. It was a daunting time but I have been educating myself over the last 9 years. The bailout was the perfect example of how capitalism can become socialism for the solvent in a heartbeat.

2. I agree, but the differences are formed out of some quixotic narrative that seems important to both us and Europe.

3. Again, I need to learn more.


----------



## NYC Composer

Just to go a bit further- I think these constructs (socialism, capitalism, even democracy) are highly and unfortunately flexible depending on who's in power. Chinese Communism sure looks different than it did 20 years ago, despite the fact that many of the odious parts are still in place.

That's why elections matter and smart guys like Jimmy (purportedly) vote for non-totalitarians.


----------



## chimuelo

Bottom line is who benefits from said spending.
I prefer money spent here as in the Pyramidial fashion it trickles down.
Terrible that Liberals despise Reagans trickle down, yet thier entire picking of winners and losers is the exact same model, only with a symbolic Liberal slogan attached.
Kind of like Obamas CEO from GE as the head of the Americans Job Council, where he shipped Americas entire XRay division to China.

Now we hear complaints on Trumps leverage before he even is President?

I so admire the "Do as I say, not as I do crowd."


----------



## JonFairhurst

Regarding point 3, if you want to eliminate pre-existing clauses, everybody needs to buy in. Otherwise, you can go uninsured until you get a disease or are injured. Then you make a single payment and get a $100,000 surgery. After you recover, cancel your policy until you need it again. Too easy to game the system.

So the only way to handle pre-existing conditions is to cover everybody. Single payer is the simplest way. For insurance-based coverage, it gets more complex.


----------



## NYC Composer

Jon-yep. The madness is that we're once again years and years away from that kind of rationality.


----------



## chimuelo

Not true.
We could compare pensions which are similar that are based on Wall Street investment banks.
A risk pool can be supplemented by similar strategies.
But no reason a single payer system cannot flourish like government bzsed pensions have?

The facts are we currently have a ponzi scheme.
Works great until half the population is old and living 20 years longer than when said social security and medicare were created.

Wall Street scares most people, but since we regulate them that leaves the Government and Central Banks in partnership.
Isnt that what we already have?

Raise payroll deductions invest it and regulate accordingly.

Or should we get more than 2 years behind rembursing hospitals and doctors that we have now?


----------



## NYC Composer

Jimmy, I see that you post but I haven't read a word you've written since I told you I wouldn't. Anytime you're ready to give up the non productive and purely provocative "yuze guys", "you liberals", "sheep" narrative, I'll be happy to re-engage with you, as you know I respect your intelligence. I just can't take your crap anymore. PM me anytime.


----------



## chimuelo

NYC Composer said:


> Jimmy, I see that you post but I haven't read a word you've written since I told you I wouldn't. Anytime you're ready to give up the non productive and purely provocative "yuze guys", "you liberals", "sheep" narrative, I'll be happy to re-engage with you, as you know I respect your intelligence. I just can't take your crap anymore. PM me anytime.



You wouldnt be interested in my ideas.
Better off reading parroted links here from the deep thinkers where folks can assume theyre well informed by those who decieve and lie to them.

Try Stratfor. 
If you want to pay for information its much more helpful than buying somebodys opinion.

Happy Holidays to yuze guys.
Merry Christmas is racist, xenophobic and hurtful.
Just spend some money in the USA instead of WalMart.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

chim, Larry Summers is a lot more outspoken now that he's out of government office. He's always worth listening to, always interesting, and almost always right on. In this case he's dead right.

Larry, about the bank bailouts... that's a totally separate issue. Yes, they should have been nationalized, but we're talking about something else here.

What's happening is that the president is - as the article says - abusing his power and acting like a banana republic authoritarian. It's a short article, and it's well worth reading. This is much deeper than it would seem. Plus it's a distraction while he selects evil criminals for his cabinet.

Summers mentions the air traffic controllers strike and Reagan busting the unions. I sure remember that. The deregulation had already started in the '70s, but firing all those people was a turning point in our whole society, in fact you could even argue that it laid the groundwork for the tragedy we're facing today.


----------



## NYC Composer

Nick, I read the article. We're just going to have to disagree on the greatest threat. I guess-there's certainly plenty of concern to go around.

I remember Ronnie Strikebuster's initiative very well, and it definitely helped to break the unions. Not a smart move by PATCO, though.


----------



## chimuelo

First of all Reagans decision was based on restricted air zones over the Capital.
He had every right to put national security ahead of the AFL-CIOs attempt to strong arm him just because they gave his campaign money.
As a Union member I bought the media story but years later realized Unions should never involve themselves in national security affairs.

And if you really want to find blame try Liberals for busting up the Teamsters Union by Robert Kennedy.
If you must tell a story use the examples from history of when it started, not the times your cherished ones decided the time they chose history to begin.

I agree with Robert Reich, Larry Summers and even Krugman when they use non political examples of economics or Labor related laws that dont include a Senator having controlling interests in Miller Safety harnesses and Lanyrads they own which eliminated competition thanks to OSHA.

I still maintain unless you read Gore Vidal (an evil homosexual Nixon admired) books you will always remain as believing the 2 party systems purpose, when really both members of the Deep State first, then leading voters to believe in less important divisions like abortion or gay rights, both valued beliefs, but minor in the real scheme of things.

And health care has always been easy. Reagans emergency room decision was a temporary step, but once lawyers started making a fortune, politicians were angry as costs kept them from spending that money wherevtheh wanted.
HRC always blamed hospitals, but it was lawyers, then complained of costs.
Once she learned to shame others saying they hate the poor was that shaming tactic used for silencing opponents.

Like it or not Trump and his billionaires just might fix things and piss both failed law firms off.
These are my hopes as I know we can do better than the bull shit crony capitalists in Washington.

We lose as these asswipes are more concerned shaming others just to win.

Im done listening to the failed "experts" time to see what jack off con artists do.


----------



## chimuelo

Like most people I enjoy a good fight.
Eric Holder giving his 2 cents on issues will fall on deaf ears since hes the only Attorney General I ever saw incapable of quoting case law in a argument.
But Obama is going to be very vocal about Trump and you know he will have a large audience.
This will certainly make excellent entertainment value as I believe he is already prepared to be the most annoying private citizen Trump will have.

Certainly yuze guys will be enjoying this as he would have had dirt on Clinton and sat silently by or cheerleading.
With Trump he will be tweeting annoying shit from a Trump golf course.
Selfies in front of Trump Towers, etc.


----------



## Soundhound

You all following this 'facts don't exist' line coming from the Trump flacks the last few days. And this morning the cover story is his talking to the president of Taiwan was probably intentional. They're trying to paper over his ignorance arrogance and incompetence. I imagine the Trump voter would swallow this whole? 

The facts don't exist idea is truly Orwellian.


----------



## chimuelo

Facts exist.
They're just irrelevant.

It's fascinating to watch predictable tactics just brushed aside.

I actually watch Axelrod every chance I get. He's the only guy who has been right the whole time.
Would love to hear what him and Trump talked about.

Until Kellyanne Conway came along his campaign was the most brilliant in history. She has definitely matched that level of success.

I'm actually nervous as I have no clue what's going to happen.
Usually I always think I have various scenarios to research.
I don't have a clue as Trump is bringing in so many non GOP types.

But I'd rather be nervous and anxious than angry, depressed and closed minded.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

> We're just going to have to disagree on the greatest threat



Larry, what do you think is the greatest threat? To me this is the *exact* threat: a much more base form of corruption than our growing plutocracy. Txxxx would have a hard time with Mussolini-style facism, but this kind of authoritarian rule is what we really have to fight tooth and nail - although I feel pretty helpless right now.

The only greater threat is Txxxx's total ignorance about the subtleties of international relations (or anything else subtle for that matter). He could easily get us into a war with his bull-in-china-shop behavior.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

chim, whatever justification you have for Reagan's behavior, it was ideology at the core: busting the unions. That was the marquee moment when we ("we" meaning the Republicans) opened the floodgates and let short-term money rule everything.

Free markets. Yah.


----------



## JonFairhurst

And I thought Karl Rove was bad. He was a schemer. Breitbart, the alt-right, and InfoWars are the delivery mechanisms of a contagious mental disease.

If you think about it, the 'post truth" strategy is like the introduction into any deviant cult. The first step is to tear away all of your cultural and family connections, tear you down, and disorient and confuse you. They then fill the void with that which most benefits the leaders.

The Trump followers will give the false equivalency story. They'll say that the left does the same thing. Bull.

Yes. The modern left hasn't torn down the banks. They haven't destroyed the military industrial complex. Such is the price of stability when powerful forces exist. Consider these powers a virtual senate.

Well guess what. Trump is doubling down with the banks and military. So much for populist revolt. Add authoritarian rule based on cultural division and kleptocracy and such is our future. And the post-truthers will cheer him for it. 

Who knew that white working class workers like rich, abusive, drama-queen bosses who lie to them and rip them off?


----------



## NYC Composer

Nick, to quote myself from an earlier post-

"I often write to form my thoughts so there's a fair amount of meandering, but as I'm writing now, I've realized what I'm most concerned about, and it isn't the kleptocracy or the dismantling of the social safety net. I'm more worried about Trump and all that he doesn't know, careening about blindly and putting us all (as in the entire planet) in tremendous danger. I'm more worried about how stupid and proudly low information he is than I am about his corruption or his ideological bent, because that's an immediate existential threat."


Nick Batzdorf said:


> Larry, what do you think is the greatest threat? To me this is the *exact* threat: a much more base form of corruption than our growing plutocracy. Txxxx would have a hard time with Mussolini-style facism, but this kind of authoritarian rule is what we really have to fight tooth and nail - although I feel pretty helpless right now.
> 
> The only greater threat is Txxxx's total ignorance about the subtleties of international relations (or anything else subtle for that matter). He could easily get us into a war with his bull-in-china-shop behavior.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Well, I guess it's sort of silly arguing over which of multiple horrors is the most horrible.

It's just SO sad.


----------



## NYC Composer

The little contretemps with China was a good start


----------



## JonFairhurst

The two concerns are linked by the giant ego of a petulant child.


----------



## mc_deli

The way forward?
Is your country a mass of contradictions?
What are you protesting about?

From my view, from outside the US, and based far too much on off topic ramblings in various music forums (!) is that a lot of "you" are very invested in the system. By that I mean, that you literally have personal investments. "You" are inextricably linked to commerce and the rise of the NASDAQ. 

The way forward for me is try to protest against the monopolist practices of major corporations, against unscrupulous business practices, against tax avoidance, against the facilitators of tax avoidance, against vested interests in government, against misrepresentation, especially against misinformation. 

In this 21st century world you are what you buy, where you click. I don't think there's a contradiction. I am not seeing a US that isn't supportive of the rise of Google, Apple, Uber. Or Philip Morris, fracking etc etc... of course we have this stuff in Europe too... H&M just moved production to Ethiopia to avoid minimum wage and they don't pay tax locally... Juncker (EC President) is one of the architects of trans-national tax avoidance.. I digress... Of course you are for it. You own part of it. US foreign policy is now overt invasion by commerce. Trump is a fairly logical extension. It makes sense that "you" aren't really protesting.

The new world order is already here. We have a (Western) digital marketplace dominated by US services, protected by unimaginable lobbying budgets that hoodwink regulators and (easily bent) local governments into bankrolling "disruption". And we have a physical system that is being destroyed rapidly because the "one superpower" refuses to act. As the one superpower "you" should take responsibility now for saving the planet. A handful of coal fired Teslas doesn't cut it.

The way forward is that "we" need to out the vested interests - personally, publicly, in office, in business, in regulation. At least Trump is transparent. Tony Blair has been shilling to get BP into the Levant Oilfield for the last 10 years under the banner of "peace envoy". Now he wants to reclaim the popular centre. He is as slippery as an eel. And "we" need to vote with our wallets and our clicks so there is self determination, opportunity, equality and a hospitable environment for our children and theirs.

(All in the best possible taste  )


----------



## NYC Composer

I would suggest to you that "transparency" about climate change denial, support for coal, support for more fracking, support for mass deportations, support for a ban on immigration by religion not to mention a religious registry, support for anti-choice advocates, support for tax breaks for the most wealthy and a trickle down plan that failed under Reagan-well, here in my country with my personal viewpoint, transparency simply makes the target more visible, not any less odious.

In your country, people voted to leave the EU. I would guess your viewpoint on your country isn't that more hopeful than mine is about mine, but we try to find the way forward the best we can.


----------



## chimuelo

Germany, China nd the EU are continuing to build coal Plants.
Must be Climate Change deniers.

Germany is deporting 100,000 Middle Easterners, must be Islamaphobes and racists.

Must be painful to see the rest of the world as it really is, instead of what others wish it to be.

Bunch of flat earthers, racists, climate change deniers and islamaphobes.


----------



## Hannes_F

chimuelo said:


> Germany is deporting 100,000 Middle Easterners



Not _totally _correct, chimuelo, and I see the anglo-american media is full of, well, interesting interpretations about changing course and such. Interesting to watch from here how this works, actually.

Germany decided to help asylum seeking refugees as it is part of the constitution. This means that every case is checked and now we have >500.000 people from all over the world (not just from the middle east) with asylum denied. They must go back, this is part and parcel of the procedure.


----------



## Baron Greuner

Austrians have voted for the Green far left candidate and rejected the far right candidate.

I think they should have the vote again until they get the right wing candidate because I say so.


----------



## chimuelo

Hannes_F said:


> Not _totally _correct, chimuelo, and I see the anglo-american media is full of, well, interesting interpretations about changing course and such. Interesting to watch from here how this works, actually.
> 
> Germany decided to help asylum seeking refugees as it is part of the constitution. This means that every case is checked and now we have >500.000 people from all over the world (not just from the middle east) with asylum denied. They must go back, this is part and parcel of the procedure.



I should also mention a plot from a "Syrian" refugee who was bound by 2 actual Syrian refugees until the authorities arrested him.
Germans have an excellent program to actually help refugees with targetted assimilation/education so examples/failed assimilation from the French and Belgians can be avoided.

Wasnt dissing one my favorite nations at all Hannes.
I read Der Speigel and other publications and pay for Stratfor yearly.

Just offsetting the overly dramatic posts.

FWIW the bulk of my information comes from talking to musician friends in Germany.
One mixed race German whose father was a GI, old timers still performing and various Saxon heathens. German DSP & FPGA based hardware are what makes my rig sound so good.

I also admire the Germans arming the Kurds years ago so Obama could more effectively appease the Mullahs.
So I hope the research I do is accurate.
The media in Americas purpose is ratings and targetted audiences, which superceeds investigative journalism

Kind Regards,

Chimuelo
Star of Stage & Screen


----------



## NYC Composer

Hannes_F said:


> Not _totally _correct, chimuelo, and I see the anglo-american media is full of, well, interesting interpretations about changing course and such. Interesting to watch from here how this works, actually.
> 
> Germany decided to help asylum seeking refugees as it is part of the constitution. This means that every case is checked and now we have >500.000 people from all over the world (not just from the middle east) with asylum denied. They must go back, this is part and parcel of the procedure.


Hannes-your country's policy is far more humane than ours overall, especially in light of the respective size of our nations. Ours is about to get worse as nativists overwhelm government. Unfortunately, yours may also move more that way due to world politics. We'll see.


----------



## Hannes_F

chimuelo said:


> I should also mention a plot from a "Syrian" refugee who was bound by 2 actual Syrian refugees until the authorities arrested him.
> Germans have an excellent program to actually help refugees with targetted assimilation/education so examples/failed assimilation from the French and Belgians can be avoided.
> 
> Wasnt dissing one my favorite nations at all Hannes.



No I did not think that, chimuelo.
You see, my opinion is maybe typical for many here, we are not totally against and not totally for refugees. I have given pro bono education in mathematics and physics for immigrant kids in order to help them integrate (difficult enough) and at the same time I am for deporting the non-asylum cases, like from many African countries, Balkan, Afghanistan. So it is not pro or contra but really a case to case decision. I see many citizens here in the same situation. We try to find the right measure and sometimes it is not easy.

I fear that if non-asylum cases are left here as some demand then this will create a resistance that could decide our next election and make the extreme right win it. Which I don't want. Don't condemn German authorities if you will read in the next months from more and more deportation cases, this has always been part of the deal.


----------



## Hannes_F

BTW deportation is really a bad word here because it often meant forceful exile of own citizens, especially in connotation with WWII. In this case it means sending asylum seekers back to their home country after having examined their status, which is a totally different case.


----------



## Marko Zirkovich

Baron Greuner said:


> Austrians have voted for the Green far left candidate and rejected the far right candidate.
> 
> I think they should have the vote again until they get the right wing candidate because I say so.



Stop your right wing whining, Baron.  Your fellow Austrian right wing whackos even managed to blow their 2nd chance. Enough is enough.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Unfortunately, Italy isn't looking as good. They just voted No.

Euro horrors coming?


----------



## Baron Greuner

Italy have just voted to come out of the Eurozone. I think they should have the vote again because 40 % of the voters voted against it and their votes should mean something. 60% of a vote shouldn't really mean anything.

Also, a liberal won the Barnes by-election, beating the independent candidate by 2000 votes. They should have another vote on this by-election, as they should in Italy because I say so.

I think it's great that Austrians have overwhelmingly voted for a Green party leader who has a completely open door policy to immigration personally. That means they can take them and thank you for that. That will teach 48% of the Austrian right wing 'whackos' a thing or two, especially when their businesses start getting priced out of the market. Hahahaha! Fuck them though I say.

The Supreme Court convenes today on whether Parliament should get a say in the Brexit vote. I hope they uphold the previous High Court's decision so that the British public can finally understand that winning a vote doesn't necessarily mean anything. Not sure if there are any other courts available after this one but if there isn't, they should start inventing some more. There's a lot of judges out there that need the extra income.


----------



## Vischebaste

Baron Greuner said:


> Italy have just voted to come out of the Eurozone. I think they should have the vote again because 40 % of the voters voted against it and their votes should mean something. 60% of a vote shouldn't really mean anything.
> 
> Also, a liberal won the Barnes by-election, beating the independent candidate by 2000 votes. They should have another vote on this by-election, as they should in Italy because I say so.
> 
> I think it's great that Austrians have overwhelmingly voted for a Green party leader who has a completely open door policy to immigration personally. That means they can take them and thank you for that. That will teach 48% of the Austrian right wing 'whackos' a thing or two, especially when their businesses start getting priced out of the market. Hahahaha! Fuck them though I say.
> 
> The Supreme Court convenes today on whether Parliament should get a say in the Brexit vote. I hope they uphold the previous High Court's decision so that the British public can finally understand that winning a vote doesn't necessarily mean anything. Not sure if there are any other courts available after this one but if there isn't, they should start inventing some more. There's a lot of judges out there that need the extra income.


----------



## chimuelo

Trump.might pick an old keyboard player from the 80s in Vegas.
Smart guy who went on to become Ambassador to China.
Unlike Obama the possible SecState speaks Espanol and Mandarin.
Obama sold positions to keep with Liberal traditions as in HRC who sold access, only lied in English, and who could forget "Ah...ya know" Caroline Kennedy who never even read the documents handed to her.
Much more sense than sending military Generals.
Diplomats with experience at succeeding, not a record of failures and sales for access.


----------



## chimuelo

Seems as though money is flying from Italy and landing in German Banks.
The benefits of a populist movement in a country where people triple park.


----------



## Baron Greuner

chimuelo said:


> Seems as though money is flying from Italy and landing in German Banks.
> The benefits of a populist movement in a country where people triple park.



Old man Medici is rolling in his grave Jimmy. The problem is apparently, Italians buy government bonds and don't keep any money in banks. Who can blame them though?


----------



## chimuelo

I blame the rise of populism on racists in Britian.
I remember watching the election and naturally all areas showing support to leave were being blamed on Anglo extremists, then Skye reporters came to a predominantly non white area and predicted a landslide to stay.
Thier facial expressions when the opposite happened was priceless.


----------



## NYC Composer

UTX nearly shit their shorts at the idea of Trump screwing with their $6-8 billion worth of Fed contracts (which would be illegal) so they kept half the Carrier jobs, as Carrier is a wart on UTX's ass.
Huge multinationals will do the things that are in their best interests. The optics look great. The realities are-that isn't job creation and bribery and implied threats won't work as a model going forward to rev the economy.


----------



## chimuelo

Tell that to the workers who'll be buying Christmas gifts for thier families, instead Wal-Mart processed food with Food Stamps.

Mostly a symbolic move I agree.
But most Liberal policy is based on symbolism over substance, so hopefully DJT has more up his sleeves for Americans wanting a better future.


----------



## NYC Composer

"Mad Dog Mattis"- on the board of General Dynamics. Of course he will"divest".

"And the beat goes on- and the beat goes on..."

Also on the board of a blood testing lab company that is being sued for more than its assets...


----------



## chimuelo

Who cares what they do.
The Clinton Foundation was hailed as the Apex of American Global interests while HRC ran SecState.

What's good got the Goose is good for the Gander.

IRS will really be great to see in action.
Who knows, Liberals like Sharpton might leave the country.

What a pity..


----------



## NYC Composer

Dr Ben Carson for Housing Secretary! 
Housing will probably be challenging for the inexperienced Dr. Carson, but at least now the field is clear for Sarah Palin to take the job as Surgeon General.


----------



## NYC Composer

Really good to see the swamp being drained. Didn't like Hank Paulson and Tim Geithner? Heeeeeeere's Steve Mnuchin and Wilbur Ross! Goldman back in the game, baby!!...and vulture capitalism is ailve and well. Good luck to coal miners with Wilbur at the helm.

"Meet the new boss....same as the old boss...."


----------



## chimuelo

Trump supporters are pulling thier hair out, stomping thier feet. calling up shrinks and grief counselors,
They must feel betrayed...


----------



## JonFairhurst

I can't wait to see what cabinet posts will be offered to Naked-Survivor-Man and Honey Boo Boo. Oh, and Satan.

Is this high-level executive recruiting or central casting?


----------



## chimuelo

Nazis, white supremacists and Klansmen mostly.
Even Al Gore showed up at Trump Towers to discuss how they can make more money with Global Warming strategies.....


----------



## NYC Composer

JonFairhurst said:


> I can't wait to see what cabinet posts will be offered to Naked-Survivor-Man and Honey Boo Boo. Oh, and Satan.
> 
> Is this high-level executive recruiting or central casting?


There's something so apropos about Ben Carson running HUD considering the support he and his family received from the social safety net and his subsequent rejection of it. 
Clarence Thomas, anyone?

Good for the goose/good for the gander vs. good for the goose/that lazy gander can go fuck itself.


----------



## NYC Composer

Place your bets for Secretary of State. The worst-John Bolton. My bet is the minimally less odious Bob Corker.


----------



## chimuelo

Hillary would be a great way to reach across the isle.
Plus investors won't be mad now, as they can still cash in on a few deals as long as DJT says it's OK.

I can't imagine the shock after hundreds of millions, then suddenly you got nothing...
Life isn't fair sometimes, but HRC already has experience and she was incredibly successful at selling arms, Uranium, and lots of access...


----------



## JonFairhurst

One way forward is to demand higher quality, diligence, and bravery from our news sources. Reading top down on the NBC News page today, we get an ad for an NBC TV show and a story about punching a kangaroo.








NBC News' attitude seems to be...


----------



## NYC Composer

The more I think about the appointment of Ben Carson for HUD, the more disgusted I am. He is self-admittedly totally unqualified. I hope the Senate confirmation hearings explore his opinion of the matter as well as that of others.


----------



## Soundhound

This administration is going to make the Bush/Cheney years look like Camelot. Any chance the recounts, or electoral college revolt, or anything/please god anything can actually change things and we will be allowed to awaken from this insane nightmare?


----------



## NYC Composer

No, but think about what fun a trade war with China will be. Good times! Of course the T-man doesn't really mean it-he's just negotiating. With the real China. You know...Taiwan. 

Speaking of fun, the Repubs no like tariffs, so that will be interesting as well.


----------



## Baron Greuner

What I'm not enjoying, is the coverage Sky News is giving to the Supreme Court. This will go on for at least 4 days and is fairly meaningless.
If Sky television must proceed to shit themselves, could they please do it in private.


----------



## chimuelo

The "News" might be relevant if they actually reported it.
Opinions seem to be more important.
Even when they're consistently wrong the Sheep will still follow.
Eventually the "journalists" might get it right, then thier flock can say "see, I told you they were smart."


----------



## Soundhound

I think learning how to say clusterfuck in 50 languages might be prudent for the coming years.


----------



## chimuelo

Well the recount has actually given Trump more votes in Wisonsin.

Hopefully this will be the last time wealthy Liberals waste money.

Maybe they could use thier own?
Doubtful.
They actually very Conservative with their own money.
When it's your tax dollars, phew, kiss it goodbye, goes back into money laundering facilities for future campaign losses.


----------



## Baron Greuner

Yes, living in denial can also be expensive.


----------



## NYC Composer

Turns out that at last reporting in 2014, T-Man owned between 100 and 250k of UTX stock (parent company of Carrier.)

Geez, the possibilities for the kleptocracy are endless. Why Presidents of the past didn't try to profit DIRECTLY FROM OFFICE is now a vast mystery. Once again, T sets the new ethical paradigm.


----------



## chimuelo

And who Cares?

Softbank just diverted 50,000,000,000 USD into the US Economy bringing 50,000 jobs.
Conservatives and Liberal owners/investors must be nervously trying to figure out what they stand for....?


----------



## NYC Composer

Hmmm. A spokeswoman for the transition team has stated that he sold off his stock portfolio in June. If true, I stand corrected. 

CNBC also reporting a 50 billion dollar investment from a Japanese billionaire who owns SoftBank and controls Sprint. 
Says he'll create 50,000 jobs in the U.S. That would be great. I'm interested to see how that story looks going forward.

That, as Al Pacino/Scarface said, is serious mo-nay.


----------



## chimuelo

Yesterday's news, by Liberals today.

At least they seem interested in telling the truth temporarily.


----------



## NYC Composer

CNBC addendum-

"But the $50 billion will come from a previously announced $100 billion international investment fund set up with Saudi Arabia, according to Dow Jones."

Never a dull moment in the reality distortion field. Yay, it's our friends the Saudis!


----------



## Baron Greuner

35% tariff for goods manufactured outside the USA coming back into the USA. D'ya think Trump was thinking of Apple?


----------



## Soundhound

Trump's Air Force One Boeing rant apparently is in retaliation for criticism from the Boeing chairman about potential trump trade policy. This guy is different from Manuel Noriega how, exactly?


----------



## chimuelo

Just get used to this guy being a showman, a bully, an asshole, etc.

But pray he puts our economy back where WE can prosper instead of the former Congressmen selling us out to foreign billionaires.

In 2024 if Trump does his job right we will have plenty of capital to actually have successful social programs.

But feelings will be hurt, and thousands will be traumatized during the process.

Lions & Tigers and Bears......Oh My.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

What's the mechanism by which you think he can possibly do that, chim. Explain how it's remotely possible.

I'll answer for you: it's totally impossible. The only way to create demand in the economy, which is its problem even though it's doing better, is public investment (and private for-profit toll roads with ofsetting tax credits for fat cat investors are not public investment). Acting like a banana republic emperor and bullying companies that dare to insult him will do nothing other than bring total corruption to our federal government.

Why do people not get that? It's so freaking obvious!

Why are the Republicans allowing this to continue?! They are going to lose just like everyone else.


----------



## chimuelo

Dont know or care how.
Tired of Liberals trying to tell us how great theyve done.
They have done great for themselves.

They suck, so do the Conservatives.
Get rid of all of these dickwad lawyers.

Let some jerk off general foreman show them how its done in the real world.


----------



## NYC Composer

Soundhound said:


> Trump's Air Force One Boeing rant apparently is in retaliation for criticism from the Boeing chairman about potential trump trade policy. This guy is different from Manuel Noriega how, exactly?


'cause they dragged Noriega out of HIS kingdom and put him in freakin' prison.


----------



## chimuelo

The lawlessness of Holder and Obama paved the way for the God King Trump.
Dont forget to thank Harry Reid for the 51 vote Senate.

I was angry at lying Liberals the last 4 years, but without them we wouldnt have a super majority.

Wouldnt be hard to out perform the super majority we gave Liberals.

I see a modern day FDR with the fireside tweet....


----------



## Soundhound

And according to the Times, the Taiwan call was the result of months of work by one Bob Dole, now a lobbyist. You can't make this stuff up. Infantile vanity case president being manipulated by ancient, wheelchair ridden cold warrior on the corporate payroll. Terry Southern got nuthin' on this shit.


----------



## Soundhound

Ah, quite so. Thanks for the clarification! 



NYC Composer said:


> 'cause they dragged Noriega out of HIS kingdom and put him in freakin' prison.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

My impression is that you're more intelligent than your vacuous posts, Chim.

What liberal policies of the past four years have anything remotely to do with the rise of the fux and the end of our republic.


----------



## NYC Composer

Dunno what you're referring to specifically Nick, but the constant hysterical comments and conspiracy theories directly from the Breitbart playbook indicate a certain willingness to buy the nuttiness out of whole cloth. Not so bright at all. Take young Mr. Flynn! ...and we know the apple doesn't fall far from the tree

Funny how you're only a sheep
if you're liberal-apparently if you're conservative, it's possible to develop Mad Sheep Disease-who even knew that was a Thing?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

The thing is, there are certain sheep whistle words that jump out and tell you a post isn't worth reading.

Another one is the "opinions are like assholes" line. It says an asshole opinion is on the way, just like "politically correct" means something offensive is about to fly.


----------



## JonFairhurst

By the way, if you every wish somebody, "Happy Holidays" and they get upset, ask them why they hate "Holy Days" (which is the basis of "holidays.") And then let them know the location of the "Christmas Safe Space" (CSS). The CSS is located at the local mall and is designed to look like a manger in order to comfort conservative sheep (aka Bill O'Reilly's Christmas warriors.)

Wow. Who knew that writing sheep troll posts was so easy?!!! No research, links, or deep thought necessary!


----------



## NYC Composer

Hey, maybe someday we can go back to seriously discussing issues instead of lobbing generalized insults. There's always hope.


----------



## Brian2112

NYC Composer said:


> Hey, maybe someday we can go back to seriously discussing issues instead of lobbing generalized insults. There's always hope.


Can't we have both? I'd settle for both.


----------



## JonFairhurst

NYC Composer said:


> Hey, maybe someday we can go back to seriously discussing issues instead of lobbing generalized insults. There's always hope.



Sounds good. 

One place to start is to identify, then prioritize problems.

Illegal immigration flow is not a big problem. The millions of people who are already here and are without documents, however, is a systemic problem. And a complex one. 

Rising crime rates aren't a problem. Statistics show the rates falling. The incarceration of Americans who didn't commit violent crimes, however, is a problem. 

Preserving the wealth of top 0.1% is not a problem. Stagnant wages and a shifting economy is a problem for those who haven't adapted.

Global warming is not a short-term problem. It's a long-term problem in need of short-term remedy. We need an Apollo program for clean energy. And yes, that can lead to new jobs and industries.

The lack of empathy is a problem. Bigotry is a problem. Dylann Roof didn't just kill nine black people. He killed Ethel Lee Lance (70), Daniel Simmons (74) and seven of their friends. We need to get back to respecting and honoring people as individuals with individual talents and move away from generalizing groups.

Fake news is a problem. Real news being manipulated to spread disinformation is a problem. We need new strategies for stopping the BS. Frankly, I'd love it if California's Secretary of State sued those pushing the 2M illegal voters lie for libel and slander. In fact, let's have a class action lawsuit on behalf of all California voters. Make disinformation painful.

The lack of across-the-board healthcare is a problem. 

And the list goes on.

But given the list, what are the top priorities?


----------



## NYC Composer

Outstanding post, Jon.


----------



## Soundhound

What he said.

And from the look of Trump's administration, good god... vulture capitalist to head the fed. Climate change denier/fossil fuel promoter to head the EPA, charter school champion to run Education... who am I forgetting?



JonFairhurst said:


> Sounds good.
> 
> One place to start is to identify, then prioritize problems.
> 
> Illegal immigration flow is not a big problem. The millions of people who are already here and are without documents, however, is a systemic problem. And a complex one.
> 
> Rising crime rates aren't a problem. Statistics show the rates falling. The incarceration of Americans who didn't commit violent crimes, however, is a problem.
> 
> Preserving the wealth of top 0.1% is not a problem. Stagnant wages and a shifting economy is a problem for those who haven't adapted.
> 
> Global warming is not a short-term problem. It's a long-term problem in need of short-term remedy. We need an Apollo program for clean energy. And yes, that can lead to new jobs and industries.
> 
> The lack of empathy is a problem. Bigotry is a problem. Dylann Roof didn't just kill nine black people. He killed Ethel Lee Lance (70), Daniel Simmons (74) and seven of their friends. We need to get back to respecting and honoring people as individuals with individual talents and move away from generalizing groups.
> 
> Fake news is a problem. Real news being manipulated to spread disinformation is a problem. We need new strategies for stopping the BS. Frankly, I'd love it if California's Secretary of State sued those pushing the 2M illegal voters lie for libel and slander. In fact, let's have a class action lawsuit on behalf of all California voters. Make disinformation painful.
> 
> The lack of across-the-board healthcare is a problem.
> 
> And the list goes on.
> 
> But given the list, what are the top priorities?


----------



## NYC Composer

You're forgetting my fave, Dr. Ben Carson for HUD


----------



## chimuelo

Nick Batzdorf said:


> My impression is that you're more intelligent than your vacuous posts, Chim.



Yes but reading the ridiculous copy/pasted deep thinking posts makes me want to also be stupid.



NYC Composer said:


> You're forgetting my fave, Dr. Ben Carson for HUD



Smarter than Quackleen Sibelius who wasted billions and failed.
Doubt you had a problem with her though.

Jon's post is a sign there's hope for a discussion, but parroted liars and losers still somehow being relevant shows me a stubborn desire to remain miserable and in denial.

Yes Hillary's team racked up more yardage than Trumps team, but failed to score in the red zone.

On local state and national levels it was a complete removal of Liberals in yet another historical sweep.

Time for the fossils to leave, thier failures cause the real Liberal causes another decade of denial.

Shedding tears is not a way forward, but I'll be happy to continue reminding the believers of why we have a con artist as a President.


----------



## Soundhound

Right. The guy with the living room portrait of himself and jesus hanging out in togas. 

And the chairman of Exxon Mobil for Secy of State. A little on the nose, don't you think?



NYC Composer said:


> You're forgetting my fave, Dr. Ben Carson for HUD


----------



## chimuelo

Oil is an important part of the Global economy.
Not wind mills and solar panels owned by politicians relatives and subsidized by tax payers.

Must be painful for the believers...


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Housing and URBAN development. Get it? The black guy?

(I posted that on Facebook yesterday.)

But the climate change denier running the EPA today... they're just fucking with us. I suspect Steve Bannon is the biggest monster behind this.

It really is hard to see how the country could possibly survive.


----------



## chimuelo

Explain denying the climate Nick.

Everyone knows climate changes.
Civilizations underwater prove that, deserts that were once lush rain forests prove that.
Does denying Climate change mean you believe our ancestors had scuba gear and built dwellings underwater?

China, the EU and Germany are Climate change deniers because they build Coal Fire plants right?

Are Mexicans, Central and South Americans racists because they killed the indigenous peoples.
Like in America more death of indigenous people came from small pox and other diseases, but genocide is much more shameful sounding.

An authentic way to reduce carbon dioxide is to change fuels in transportation instead of crippling an economy by inefficient jive wind and solar.
Nazis (not Trump Nazis but ze Furher) used synthetic fuels that were lower in CO2 & monoxide than Ethanol.

How about explaining how 3% of human added CO2 will end earth.
If we go negative to 0% will the trends that follow an ice age suddenly stop.

Ocean levels have slowed since the 19th century and rise at a lower rate yet Alarmists told us in 2014 the Everglades would kill hundreds of species from salt water entering further inland.

No doubt we contribute and if we didn't the waters will continue to rise.
Smart people prepare for this with infrastructure spending on levees. re routing flood water to drought areas.

Which of the elites that you admire have any plans to prepare for this?
Or do they just shame people who disagree with selling coal as opposed to using clean coal technology which the DOE already has operating for 29+ years now?
American Corporations that recently finished Ruhr River facility aren't even using the technology because it's costs are higher.
2/3s less than Solars lied costs and exaggerated Megawatt output.

Then there's Yacht Private Jet Limo driving experts like Gore and Saudi funded Matt Damon.

My carbon footprint is a size 11.
I'd love to put it on the back of these hypocrites asses at one of thier yacht parties or as they board a private global warming jet.

Maybe if they practiced the jive they preach more Sheep would join the flocks of the shamed...


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Notice the word "sheep" in there.

Sorry, not going to debate that man-made climate change is real. Too stupid, not the least bit interesting, and I'm in no mood for ridiculous debates.


----------



## NYC Composer

You could stop reading or responding. I was a big fan until I finally realized,as I stated earlier, that there's no real debate, just lectures and insults.

Up is down, right is wrong, blah blah blah, bah bah bah.


----------



## Soundhound

Kind of interesting having Jimmy and the Baron on ignore. I hear the echoes, the blood stained water lapping against the rocks, but my blood pressure is smoooooooth... Sorry to pile on. 

Anyway moving right along, this administration is scaring the hell out of me. After the initial shock of the election, I started to feel like maybe it was all a game and he'll do some good things. 

Wrong. Somebody said recently that Trump is completely unpredictable except for one thing, he'll whatever makes the most noise. 50% of the American electorate has been lobotomized by right wing media, so I don't think we can count on 2018. Trump and his flacks will find a way to blame everything on his opposition, and they're preaching to the choir. 

They need to keep this piece of shit out of office.


----------



## NYC Composer

It's a done deal, hound.

I wish the Senate confirmation hearings on appointees would be incisive and calmly, coldly logical rather than the grandstanding hysteria we always get. So many of these people should be challenged for cause...lack of real world managerial experience, enmity towards the agency they would head, outrageous conspiracy based quotes. The majority will rule but the case should be made, published and disseminated.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Every day it gets worse and worse and worse and worse and worse.

Yesterday a fossil fuel insider to lead the EPA. This morning a fast food industry insider who's opposed to raising the minimum wage.

And those are just your daily WTFs. There are lots more.

Someone please tell me the country is going to survive.


----------



## Soundhound

WTF indeed. I was thinking of starting a blog or something about this administration called WTF.


----------



## Baron Greuner

Let's see, what happened yesterday.

The British government voted through Brexit with a massive majority. But of course they did. They don't want to lose their jobs at the next election, which btw would have come very very quickly had the vote gone the other way.

The only thing that matters to these people is getting re-elected. That's the name of the game and no court with any title you like, is going to change that.

I think it could be adios to the EU completely.


----------



## JonFairhurst

This is why racism normalization and racism deniers must be made unacceptable. There are those like the pizzeria shooter who are suggestible.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/12/07/as-dylann-roof-trial-begins-prosecutor-describes-each-victims-life-and-how-they-died/?postshare=8101481152277055&tid=ss_fb&utm_term=.5b0501f74de4


----------



## chimuelo

I never ignore losers.
I prefer reading thier copy/pastes so I don't have to give a recorded hit to thier favorite parrots, who lied and deceived them and continue to.

The Sheep will continue parroting others ideas, losing more seats, and while they bleed on each other the majority of Americans will remove Conservatives and Liberals again in 2018.

I am enjoying being ignored by the offended.
Love being called a racist as they that's a badge of honor.

Black, Brown, Asian and white racists are just smarter.
That's why lying, losing, Liberals are history.

Bye bye to the offended brilliant broke Liberal voter....


----------



## woodsdenis

Who even debates how stupid Trump voters are. How do you get this vast amount of people to stop believing fake news ? A real issue for the way forward.


----------



## chimuelo

That's called fake news, even HRC is blaming the brilliant losers for giving power to black brown yellow red and white racists.
Again quoting parrots is so original and why even whining losers just can't explain why the world rejects them.

Next copy paste please....


----------



## NYC Composer

woodsdenis said:


> Who even debates how stupid Trump voters are. How do you get this vast amount of people to stop believing fake news ? A real issue for the way forward.



I really don't know, Dennis. Our National Security Adviser is a Conspiracy Believer, the new EPA director is a climate change denier, our new HUD director believes the pyramids were built as grain silos and hard work is all that's needed for the poor, none of that government help nonsense, regardless of the fact it helped put him in a position that made it possible for him to succeed. Linda McMahon? Sarah Palin? Rudy "Mr. Demento" Giuliani? Volkswagen full of clowns. 'Nuf said.


----------



## JonFairhurst

It turns out that the people who call mainstream news consumers "sheep" were following teenage Macedonian shepherds all along. 

_*Fake News: How a Partying Macedonian Teen Earns Thousands Publishing Lies*

"Say you produce ten lies a day, [the audience] is not going to believe ten lies, they are going to believe probably one or maximum two," he says. "Usually the lies about [Clinton's] emails and the lies about Hillary. The anti-Hillary posts were really good."_

_Dimitri is unequivocal about why the mainstream couldn't compete: "They're not allowed to lie."_

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/f...-teen-earns-thousands-publishing-lies-n692451


----------



## Soundhound

The problem is I honestly don't think you can. Republicans have been spoonfed an entirely fabricated worldview for more than twenty years now. Many have never known anything else. 




woodsdenis said:


> Who even debates how stupid Trump voters are. How do you get this vast amount of people to stop believing fake news ? A real issue for the way forward.


----------



## Soundhound

The brilliant part about propaganda, is they always blame the other side of doing exactly what they're doing. Gaslighting is that what it's called? People who watch Fox News have been taught to think that Rachel Maddow tells lies. They are information proof. They won't read the NY Times or the Washington Post or the Economist or any real news source.

Willful ignorance. It's an important tool for any fascistic regime.


----------



## robh

Soundhound said:


> The problem is I honestly don't think you can. Republicans have been spoonfed an entirely fabricated worldview for more than twenty years now. Many have never known anything else.


Worldviews of any type are fabricated, in my worldview. 

Rob


----------



## Soundhound

Solipsism. Useless naval gazing.



robh said:


> Worldviews of any type are fabricated, in my worldview.
> 
> Rob


----------



## woodsdenis

says it all


----------



## Soundhound

well my holiday decorating worries are over!



woodsdenis said:


> says it all



well


----------



## chimuelo

25 DNC Senate seats up for grabs in 2018.
10 of the lawyers are in Red states, 7 voting no against the fundraiser Pelosi.
Thanks to Harry 51 votes are all it takes, which the Racist GOP already has.
These 10 give the GOP 61 which isn't needed, but basically can bypass opposition.
After they lose more recounted votes they better offer up some favors before the become extinct.

Their only way forward is to worship the God King Trump....
Lest they sell access to the GOP which will be all that's left.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

And all the House seats.

I just looked it up: 33 Senate seats in 2018.

Believe me, I'm going to be active as hell.


----------



## Guy Bacos

Soundhound said:


> The problem is I honestly don't think you can. Republicans have been spoonfed an entirely fabricated worldview for more than twenty years now. Many have never known anything else.



But they like saying Obama had an economic growth of 3% which was the worst of any president. But when you consider the mess Bush left America in...

Obama created 10.9 million jobs, that's 3,787 jobs per day, or 5 Carrier deals per day.


----------



## woodsdenis

Apart from the Devils horns did Time magazine pull an even better one with the same pose as Hitchcock, in you guessed it, Psycho.


----------



## Soundhound

Souter saw this election coming.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

By the way, it's the REAL NEWS that's culpable for this.

Fake news is bad, but don't get distracted! The Fourth Estate makes lots of money from elections. In this case they gave us the most low-calibre person in the country.


----------



## chimuelo

That's what happens at those Federal/Liberal/Free Union day care centers. 
No homework equates to civic ignorance and jive ass social engineering.
Too bad Liberal voters weren't allowed to go to rich white schools where Liberal leaders send thier children.

But there's a huge advantage to having dumbed down free school.
They will vote for you if you promise free stuff.

Souter seems to think our brilliant leaders have inadvertently ruined another generation.

I'd say about the last 3 is more accurate.
Anyone who dares try to change that cash cow would be a racist and must hate children.


----------



## JonFairhurst

That's gobsmacking. They filtered negative news about alt-Mussolini that brazenly? And they pushed the negatives on Hillary that hard? And she still won the popular vote by about 3M?

And that was in the summer. The week before the election, the coverage was more like _[blank]_ | *EMAIL*.


----------



## robh

Soundhound said:


> Solipsism. Useless naval gazing.


I don't follow what you are meaning by this post.

My comment was made because you call Republican's worldview "fabricated," as though a Democrat worldview is more "natural," or "real." Or did I read too far between the lines?

As far as navel gazing, one must do that on occasion in order to effectively remove the lint - or yesterday's popcorn.

Rob


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

A Democratic worldview, or at least a liberal one, actually is more real by definition: it's based on objective reality, and it's not ideology (excluding Sanders Swaggart zombies who refuse to die). That's why it's solipsism to assume that both orientations - and there really is a sharp divide - are both equally legitimate.

The Republicans are now proving beyond a doubt what I've been saying about them for years. Where's the patriotism they've been claiming to have a lock on? And values?!


----------



## robh

Nick Batzdorf said:


> A Democratic worldview, or at least a liberal one, actually is more real by definition: it's based on objective reality, and it's not ideology (excluding Sanders Swaggart zombies who refuse to die). That's why it's solipsism to assume that both orientations - and there really is a sharp divide - are both equally legitimate.
> 
> The Republicans are now proving beyond a doubt what I've been saying about them for years. Where's the patriotism they've been claiming to have a lock on? And values?!


I don't hold both to be equally legitimate. I will most likely find some aspects of both I agree with, and some I don't.
And, according to a scientific experiment cited in this link, https://blog.theuniversesolved.com/2014/08/08/objective-vs-subjective-reality/, objective reality does not exist. 

Rob


----------



## NYC Composer

So thousands of years of philosophical enquiry, finally solved by a link on the 'net. It's about time.

I actually believe that there's very little objective reality, but also that some subjective realities are far stupider or selfish than others.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Posting this everywhere, because it's our best last hope: Hillary releases her electors for a Republican who won't destroy the world.


----------



## NYC Composer

Ever since the re-election of G.W. Bush, I've learned to never say never. Still:

1. This does seem to be grasping at straws. 

2. It does carry its own very real and possibly bloody dangers.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

1. What else is there to grasp? Don't underestimate the emergency. This is by far the biggest crisis our country has faced since the Civil War, probably a bigger one (because we're facing global ecological collapse and because of the threat of nuclear war).

2. This could very easily be the end of our republic. I don't have a high opinion of the Republican party, but I don't believe that's what they want. Nor do I believe they're unaware of the danger.


----------



## NYC Composer

Nick, I don't know who the Republcan party is anymore, and I don't think they know either, but I think these Cabinet posts are delighting them. I think they may think they can control him with the legislative process.

I'm not saying your statement about the threat is hyperbolic, but in the very real scenario in which the electoral initiative fails, I can't go to the "all is lost and the country is finished" place, otherwise I'd emigrate. I have to believe that sanity prevails, some way, somehow.


----------



## Soundhound

You're confusing philosophy (as seen through the eyes of a stoned teenager) with the real world. The universe may indeed be an experiment in a test tube in another infinitely bigger universe. But that is of little help help when drawing a distinction between the long history of lies that have been fed the American public and the world by the right wing (from trickle down economics to weapons of mass destruction to Hillary Clinton's emails) and what the democrats have said and done. 




robh said:


> I don't follow what you are meaning by this post.
> 
> My comment was made because you call Republican's worldview "fabricated," as though a Democrat worldview is more "natural," or "real." Or did I read too far between the lines?
> 
> As far as navel gazing, one must do that on occasion in order to effectively remove the lint - or yesterday's popcorn.
> 
> Rob





robh said:


> I don't follow what you are meaning by this post.
> 
> My comment was made because you call Republican's worldview "fabricated," as though a Democrat worldview is more "natural," or "real." Or did I read too far between the lines?
> 
> As far as navel gazing, one must do that on occasion in order to effectively remove the lint - or yesterday's popcorn.
> 
> Rob


----------



## Soundhound

I'd love to be sanguine about all this, I'm trying really I am, but it's not working. I never thought the Bush administration was going to destroy the country, but I was mad as hell about their bullshit, defense contractor enriching war and the gigantic hole in the economy caused by irresponsible (in the most flattering light it can be seen in) deregulation.

This doesn't seem like that at all to me. Trump is a maniac. I don't think Cheney was a maniac, in the traditional sense. He was a dangerous ideologue, and maybe his willingness to let hundreds of thousands die to prove out his theories and self enrichment could be seen as insane, but you can at least connect the dots. Trump I think is far more dangerous. I think he's going to go after the press when push comes to shove. Repealing AFA without a plan on how to replace it could cause a deep recession if not a depression. And there's nuclear weapons. And there's really no one to stop him. The republicans are spineless whores, and most of the democrats are merely spineless.

I don't think apocalyptic concern is out of line in the slightest. 



NYC Composer said:


> Nick, I don't know who the Republcan party is anymore, and I don't think they know either, but I think these Cabinet posts are delighting them. I think they may think they can control him with the legislative process.
> 
> I'm not saying your statement about the threat is hyperbolic, but in the very real scenario in which the electoral initiative fails, I can't go to the "all is lost and the country is finished" place, otherwise I'd emigrate. I have to believe that sanity prevails, some way, somehow.


----------



## NYC Composer

I can be very concerned, but I can't panic- I'm too old for that. I worry for my son, but he wants to protect the city/country/world. He's working towards that. He's found a direction, and I hope he gets the chance to follow the path he's chosen.

I've lived a life. Things will happen as they happen. I'll be more involved from here on. I don't think there's a lot else to be done. Live your life, work for change as you can and as you see it, hope for the best.


----------



## Soundhound

I'm not panicking, but only because you have to or you can't function. The (Bill) Clinton idea of 'compartmentalizing. But every time I read the paper, I'm worried as hell.


----------



## NYC Composer

Wrote this little ditty with a friend at peak panic time during the Great Recession. I am watching and reading less news at the moment, trying to take my own advice:

http://www.ljnmusicandsound.com/2009/turn-off-the-news/


----------



## Baron Greuner

Say, have you guys ever thought about becoming a Government Think Tank?


----------



## Soundhound

Love it!

Edit: Ray Davies, that's who the voice reminds me of. Yah mahn, luvly!

Thing is, these days I'm feeling more like this



than this (though I dearly love this tune too)





Looking for the Randy Newman tune on youtube, I came across several videos put together by right wingers who didn't get that the song is sarcastic. Good god there are a lot of stupid people out there.




NYC Composer said:


> Wrote this little ditty with a friend at peak panic time during the Great Recession. I am watching and reading less news at the moment, trying to take my own advice:
> 
> http://www.ljnmusicandsound.com/2009/turn-off-the-news/


----------



## chimuelo

Globalist Liberalism is dead.
Now that they have been removed, one last desperate attempt will fail and we'll be rid of them.
GOP leadership is next.

The God King Trump is going to give a lesson to these remaining lawyers in leverage.

They too will loose.

It's a brave new world.
Jump in for the big win.

After Football games my coach never told us to apologize for winning.

This administration is just like scrimmage.
Just keep hitting things until you learn what works.

Everybody has the best plan until they get punched in the face.


----------



## NYC Composer

Soundhound said:


> Love it!
> 
> Edit: Ray Davies, that's who the voice reminds me of. Yah mahn, luvly!
> 
> Thing is, these days I'm feeling more like this
> 
> 
> 
> than this (though I dearly love this tune too)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looking for the Randy Newman tune on youtube, I came across several videos put together by right wingers who didn't get that the song is sarcastic. Good god there are a lot of stupid people out there.



Well, to be fair, I also wrote this at the same time. Put on a quick vocal last week, still seemed apropos (and not so chipper :

http://www.ljnmusicandsound.com/2016/dark-days-120216/


----------



## JonFairhurst

Personally, I love the idea of Clinton requesting her electors to vote for Kasich. He's from Ohio, so he would likely appeal to voters in the upper mid-west, which is the region that swayed the election. 

All it would take is a few dozen Republican electors to swap, and that's much more likely when going for another Republican than voting for Clinton.

Would there be some alt-CivilWar? Nah. As long as the winner has an (R) by their name, what is there to fight for? Trump? Pfft. And where are the battle lines drawn? Will rural people, who are spread out, bring their "militias" into the cities to kill Americans? (Note that these are not true militias; they would be mobs.) In this case, our militarized police would finally get to put their toys to use. Not to mention that the mobs would be far outnumbered. 

And it's not like the city people would march on the rural areas. Why would they bother?

The "war" would be fought on news channels, Twitter, and comment sections. What's new? That war goes on every day.

What if it fails? Who cares? It's not like the electors are under Trump's thumb. 

If it succeeds, Trump complains loudly. VERY LOUDLY. Let him. Let the story be about whether he crosses the line into treason.

I think that Kasich is the right person. I don't think that enough Democratic delegates would vote for Pence. They might go for Romney, though he didn't run this time. Kasich was the most inclusive running Republican. Would enough Republican delegates support him? I don't know. 

I say go for it. It's the most promising path forward in the near term. 

And it's better than rolling over to be "cucked" by Trump.


----------



## Soundhound

Agree totally. Kasich is primitive in his anti abortion stance, but next to Donald trump he's noam Chomsky. Anything to keep this idiot out of the White House. Anything at all. By any means necessary.


----------



## JonFairhurst

The problem with Trump isn't idiocy. "W" sure acted like an idiot sometimes and we survived.

The problem with Trump is that he is anti-ethics. Unfortunately, that's *exactly* why many people voted for him. People that vote from a place of Faux News-driven fear and hate and who will do anything to win, well, they see ethics as weakness.

That's why Trump could do unethical things over and over. His dearest supporters loved him for it. Racist? Misogynist? Tax Cheat? Conflicted Interests? Fraudster? Nepotism? Torturer? Awesome!!! And because Hillary's voters actually give a crap about ethics, something as vague as "emails" hurt her turnout. 

This aligns with the ability to disseminate fake news. Give a liberal fake news that bashes Trump and they check it, find it to be false, and don't forward it. Give a conservative fake news and they don't care if it's a lie. They forward it if it aligns with their agenda.

We aren't dealing with a clown or a dummy. We're dealing with the devil. (Not literally. But this is a guy without ethical boundaries.)


----------



## NYC Composer

Well, it's a very unusual year, so why not a very unusual (and unprecedented) solution?

However, I would say this-Trump
voters rejected establishment politics. Kasich or Romney are establishment politicians. I don't think there would be an alt-right war, but I think reactions might be quite extreme.
Anybody think Bannon's a pacifist?

I'm very skeptical re the success of this initiative, but I'm totally on board with trying it.


----------



## jcrosby

Very interesting post election poll... His base apparently believe the garbage that falls out of his mouth despite filling up his cabinet with people who illustrate a clear intention of doing exactly the opposite of what he campaigned on...


----------



## Guy Bacos

I'm not getting this:

_Donald Trump has not been elected president. The real election takes place December 19, when the 538 Electoral College Electors cast their ballots – for anyone they want._

I'm not a Trump supporter, but this is very bizarre and doesn't make sense. If some changed their mind, it should be too late. Or am I missing some logic here?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Hey, Kasich is a total dope. Being anti-abortion is a moral issue; if you believe that abortion is murder, I sympathize and don't think people who believe that are "wrong," I just disagree with them.

Being in favor of a Constitutional balanced budget amendment is flat-out irrational.

Txxxx is another level of everything. A benign president as stupid and ignorant as he is would be incredibly dangerous; this asshole is 100% malign.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Guy, this is an emergency. No, it shouldn't be too late. He wouldn't be president without the electoral college, so as long as we have it, let it do its job of saving the country.


----------



## Guy Bacos

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Guy, this is an emergency. No, it shouldn't be too late. He wouldn't be president without the electoral college, so as long as we have it, let it do its job of saving the country.



So this is kind of the equivalent of being impeached before even becoming president?


----------



## Soundhound

no the electoral college is a failsafe built into the constitution to prevent someone like donald trump from becoming president.


----------



## Guy Bacos

I think I'm a little slow, so you saying there is purposely a time delay between the electoral college vote (Nov 8 and Dec 19 to realize they may have made a mistake?) I guess in this case the Russia hacking could be an issue IF it interfered in the election.

But I wouldn't hold my breath Nick, the gap is way too big. :(


----------



## jcrosby

Guy Bacos said:


> I think I'm a little slow, so you saying there is purposely a time delay between the electoral college vote (Nov 8 and Dec 19 to realize they may have made a mistake?) I guess in this case the Russia hacking could be an issue IF it interfered in the election.



This whole debacle is literally a case and point example of the electoral college:

"Alexander Hamilton in Federalist No. 68 laid out what he believed were the key advantages to the Electoral College. The electors come directly from the people and them alone for that purpose only, and for that time only. This avoided a party-run legislature, or a permanent body that could be influenced by *foreign interests* before each election.[23]"


----------



## JonFairhurst

Guy Bacos said:


> I'm not getting this:
> 
> _Donald Trump has not been elected president. The real election takes place December 19, when the 538 Electoral College Electors cast their ballots – for anyone they want._
> 
> I'm not a Trump supporter, but this is very bizarre and doesn't make sense. If some changed their mind, it should be too late. Or am I missing some logic here?



Yes, the electoral college is bizarre. Without it, Hillary would be president by popular vote. But it's not just a mathematical model. People vote, the states certify the vote, and then the electors submit the votes to Washington. And the electors are free to change their votes independently.

So, without the electoral college, Trump loses. But this isn't yet in the bag for him. He needs to actually win the electoral college vote. And then, he needs to be inaugurated in January. The more extreme he behaves before he is in the throne, the more he risks not attaining it.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

What Jon says. The EC is hopelessly out of date. But as long as we have it, maybe the electors could do something useful like saving the world


----------



## Soundhound

This is what I've been thinking. Use it to 86 the asshole wannabe king, and then get rid of the freaking thing.


----------



## Guy Bacos

JonFairhurst said:


> The more extreme he behaves before he is in the throne, the more he risks not attaining it.



If the electors change their mind, that would be deceiving their voters, so other problems there. It's a complicated election!


----------



## jcrosby

JonFairhurst said:


> Yes, the electoral college is bizarre. Without it, Hillary would be president by popular vote. But it's not just a mathematical model. People vote, the states certify the vote, and then the electors submit the votes to Washington. And the electors are free to change their votes independently.
> 
> So, without the electoral college, Trump loses. But this isn't yet in the bag for him. He needs to actually win the electoral college vote. And then, he needs to be inaugurated in January. The more extreme he behaves before he is in the throne, the more he risks not attaining it.



I forget where but recently saw someone make a funny analogy of the electoral collge being akin to walking into a coffee shop and ordering a drink, and after the cashier gives you your change they inform you that your order is being placed on behalf of the customer next to you, who actually decides what you order. 
It's not a perfect analogy but it gets the point across... 

Anyway it's bizarre for sure. How ironic that it should have gone years ago, (inevitably replaced by some other flawed institution in true American fashion), yet here we sit with a text book example of why it was created, and how it could actually be used as intended. 

Assuming intelligence pans out, we couldn't have a more literal example arguing in favor of the electoral college acting as a firewall against foreign interests. The irony is bitter...
We're in truly strange waters...

Mathematically speaking it's a scam. The very least that should happen is that it's updated so every state is allotted the same amount of electors per capita.


----------



## jcrosby

Guy Bacos said:


> If the electors change their mind, that would be deceiving their voters, so other problems there. It's a complicated election!


Too true... but all the same we can't ignore the intelligence. If we do that sets a precedent that others will exploit. First up to bat would certainly be the Donald himself.

In terms of utilizing it and then abolishing it - We have to choose whether the EC stays or goes and stick to it; at least for a while... Doing other wise would easily make things only worse.

Considering many of his voters believe he's a credible source of information and refuse to accept facts and data, they are voting purely on confirmation bias.
http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/donald-trump/
http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2015/PPP_Release_National_120916.pdf
Imagine Trump's already-angry voters seeing an electoral upset blocking him based on intelligence, and we follow that up by by abolishing branch of government that just blocked their candidate. All the while they cherry pick their 'truth' with conspiracy theories spit out on twitter by his cabinet picks.

All that would accomplish is confirming his base's belief system that the "left" are conspiring to take their voice away, and that would bite us in the ass 4-12 years down the road. Most likely in even more extreme fashion.

You can't have it both ways, especially with people willing to cherry pick their "facts" and believe outright propaganda. We sure as shit better learn that lesson now or this is going to happen all over again, and sooner than we’re willing to admit to ourselves. History repeats itself... That's a cold possibility we have to be willing to face.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Guy:



> If the electors change their mind, that would be deceiving their voters, so other problems there.



Right, but evidence of the candidate deceiving the voters since the election is overwhelming. There was plenty of evidence that he's a pile of sewage before, of course, but it was different. He's refusing to divest his empire, which is unConstitutional and an astounding conflict of interest. The Russians intervened in our campaign. He's taking deposits on a new Txxxx tower in the Philippines, and of course he praised their leader who is murdering civilians (that's in our national interest?!). His dickhead son-in-law shoveled at the groundbreaking ceremony. His daughter sat in on a meeting with Japanese diplomats while she was negotiating business arrangements in Japan.

He's shown that he's a menace to world stability. So far his appointments say he has no intention of doing anything he said he would when he campaigned - starting with not selecting a cabinet of the biggest assholes he could find.

It goes on and on. I keep wanting to see a path for the country to survive this, but I just don't.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

I hate that man SO much. I truly hate him.


----------



## Guy Bacos

I hate him a lot as well, and I think if there was an election for a world president, he would want that position.

The Clintons have as well some scary side, no definite proof of any of it, and it wasn't brought up during the campaign, but some very suspicious foul play have surrounded the Clintons over the years. I'm not sure I'm comfortable with this either.


----------



## Soundhound

The Clintons are not in the same league as Trump, not by any stretch of the imagination. Equating the two in any way is patent nonsense.

Trump is nominating the head of Exxon Mobil as his secretary of state. Do you know what that means? Exxon does not work for the united states or its people. Exxon works for Exxon. Exxon props up corrupt dictators, murderous regimes, to benefit Exxon. Tillerson is not going to have the interests of the american public in mind, the U.S. is going to essentially become a petro state.

Trump voters will never, ever see any of this as bad. They have been brainwashed, they have completely digested and metabolized the right wing kool aid. Trump could nominate Dylann Roof as head of HHS and they would be easily convinced it's a great idea.


----------



## Guy Bacos

I totally agree with this. No need convincing me. 

What I was getting at regarding the Clintons is, the tons of murders that happened over the Clinton years, and most of them were said to have been suicides, which was pretty ridiculous, and many of them happened a few days before testifying in court which would of badly hurt Bill or Hillary. Now, I'm not saying this is all true, I'm just not comfortable with this notion.


----------



## Soundhound

What murders and suicides are you speaking about? I have never heard anything of the kind relating to them that didn't turn out to be right wing propaganda. 



Guy Bacos said:


> I totally agree with this. No need convincing me.
> 
> What I was getting at regarding the Clintons is, the tons of murders that happened over the Clinton years, and most of them were said to have been suicides, which was pretty ridiculous, and many of them happened a few days before testifying in court which would of badly hurt Bill or Hillary. Now, I'm not saying this is all true, I'm just not comfortable with this notion.


----------



## Guy Bacos

One example:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/BODIES.php#axzz4SmIegB2p

Don't think I swallow everything I read, it's that there are numerous similar reports, and if it's all right wing conspiracy, it's pretty amazing.


----------



## Soundhound

I'm going to read up on some of those, starting with the first. But an even cursory look at this site shows articles suggesting that climate change is a hoax. Not an auspicious start, looks like obvious, utter bullshit to me. But I'm going to look further. 

Have you checked with reputable news sources on the Clinton murder stories you read here? 




Guy Bacos said:


> One example:
> 
> http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/BODIES.php#axzz4SmIegB2p
> 
> Don't think I swallow everything I read, it's that there are numerous similar reports, and if it's all right wing conspiracy, it's pretty amazing.


----------



## Soundhound

Are you familiar with Snopes? Great first stop when checking on any fantastical stories online:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/clintons/bodycount.asp


----------



## Guy Bacos

No I'm not, I've been looking for sources explaining these stories, but fell short. Looks interesting, thanks, I'll check it out.


----------



## Soundhound

Sure thing!


----------



## Guy Bacos

It's sad that for every one site like this there are 50 sites incriminating the Clintons of all these crimes. I was suspicious of these stories. So this is really all a right wing conspiracy? This is so extreme!


----------



## jcrosby

Guy Bacos said:


> It's sad that for every one site like this there are 50 sites incriminating the Clintons of all these crimes. I was suspicious of these stories. So this is really all a right wing conspiracy? This is so extreme!




Welcome to the world of Chief Strategist Steve Bannon The more disinformation you saturate a search engine with the more people will doubt their own logical conclusions...



Regardless of Snopes nothing about that article smells factual.

First things first. The name of the site... What Really Happened. By who's standards? Where are credible notations citing universally respected sources, census data, or edu journals?

Second, On clicking the link I'm greeted with a picture of Santa Clause (NO SHIT) that says “The nice part about being Santa Clause? I know where all the naughty girls live.” Hmmm… Nope.

Third, the place is littered with advertising wall to wall. (this is the very least anyone should have as a threshold for any given "news site's" motivation.) This is _click-bait_ through and through. The headlines, the catchy first few words, they're all aimed at hooking you in and encouraging you to click the 'bait', feeding this website's income by click-through advertising. It's literally the same scam porn sites run...

Fourth, the "article" is presented as an infographic. Outside of the internet when have you ever been presented an infographic as a genuinely credible source of information? Regardless of that, think of the format.. There's so much necessary room for omission simply because the format relies on being visually palatable. Would you ever actually room a 46 page infographic that actually foot noted credible sources? Hell no! That's the kind of stuff you reserve for real reading time...

Fifth, the content of advertisements. Almost every ad is an animated gif. THIS is where the advertising has all the hallmarks of click bait, ad relies the same shady on gimmicks porn sites rely on.

How exciting is it to see a static ad out of the corner of your eye? IT'S NOT! If ads rely on animated gif tactics of catching your peripheral vision every second or so, RUN the other way. It's a scam.

Whether you enjoy "credible" (I say this as I cough the word _bullshit_ under my breath... I digress...) online shopping sites like Amazon or not, how often do they bombard you with by eye candy that obsessively attempts to grab your attention in every square inch of your screen? They don't. Credible advertisers run static banner ads...


Content: One ad said "Boner in a Bottle", another "Climategate! Don't get bullied by a Gore!! www.whatreallyhappened.com", and another "USA. Where torture is legal, but cruelty to animals is crime! www.whatreallyhappened.com." Despite two of them being the sites own ads, think about the message. It's partisan propaganda. Al Gore is hardly the face of real climate change activism, and torture is (technically) not legal in the US just as cruelty to animals is equally illegal. It's essentially advertising playing to people's confirmation biases.

Interestingly one ad had a thirteen year old picture from Abu Ghraib with the caption “Torture Scandal.” That’s an old scandal man... More interestingly it plays right into the previously mentioned ad that said “"USA. Where torture is legal, but cruelty to animals is crime! …” Finally a banner ad that says "Conspiracy factist Award 2016. Top 25 Conspiracy Blogs. www.TruthRising.net."

And the icing on the cake? Going to http://truthrising.net/about/ reveals a page that says "Is the Earth really a spinning sphere flying around the sun? No... it's flat" YES IT SURE AS SHIT IS A SPHERE. "Is our sun really 93 million miles away? No it's much closer... 3000 miles away and same size as the moon" YES IT FUCKING IS.

And This one is PERSONAL MAN! "9/11, Sandy Hook massacre, Boston Bombing, London Bombings (and many more) - all proven to be false flag events carried out by our governments". As if the Sandy Hook claim isn't a dead giveaway, I live in Boston. I can sure as shit tell you the Boston Bombing happened, and I watched the police pursuit (20+ minute long non-stop parade of police car after police car) happen in real time as I stood outside on Massachusetts Avenue in Cambridge. I had a friend whose cousin died in the explosion, a friend at Berkley near the blast, and friends who worked on Boylston Street less than a block away when it went off. What say you Londoners? Are London bombings all fake?


















Regardless of Snopes there is simply no logical reason to trust a site that relies on any of these gimmicks. the minute you see wall to wall ads that are animating themselves as if to hypnotically capture you into clicking on them, RUN.


----------



## jcrosby

Sorry but disinformation hits an especially shitty nerve in me. Never trust a site that relies on these gimmicks.


----------



## JonFairhurst

Back on the electoral college, it's consistent with a democratic republic, in which elected people govern on behalf of the voters. We don't have direct democracy specifically to avoid mob rule. In theory, the elected officials are wiser than the public at large.

So while senators and congresspersons govern on our behalf, electors select the president on our behalf. 

Let's hope that they really are wiser than the mob.


----------



## Guy Bacos

jcrosby, thanks for that post, it is enlightening and I was somewhat naive, however, I never would of brought this up based on that cheap Santa link, it was just the first one that popped up on Google. What lead me to be suspicious about some of these murders was when I clicked individually on each of these names and found related articles and what looked to be a serious investigation with foul play involved from legit newspapers. That still may not mean much, but for each name, you can google a lot of info on it. However, the snopes link of soundhound explanations seems quite logical to me for each individual case, and I would tend to believe that more.


----------



## Soundhound

It's this kind of disinformation that has fueled so much of the right wing's lies over the last generation and was instrumental in getting Trump elected.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

You think the murders are bad, I hear from reliable sources that Hillary is running a child prostitution ring out of a pizza shop.


----------



## Guy Bacos

Nick Batzdorf said:


> You think the murders are bad, I hear from reliable sources that Hillary is running a child prostitution ring out of a pizza shop.



Isn't this true? 

))


----------



## Soundhound

Do they deliver?


----------



## jcrosby

Nick Batzdorf said:


> You think the murders are bad, I hear from reliable sources that Hillary is running a child prostitution ring out of a pizza shop.


What I wouldn't give to catch Alex Jones alone in a dark alley.


----------



## woodsdenis




----------



## chimuelo

Clinton's made themselves a target for conspiracy theorists by cleaning up a Crime Scene as D.C. Police were denied access.
Once the Clinton's were done cleaning Vince Fosters place up, the cops were allowed in.
She was only 1st Lady then.


See you after the 3rd meltdown.

That should remove the last wealthy white Liberals.
Seems thier investors have jumped ship at Trumps White House North.

No money into the Foundation lately.
Climate deniers and children haters.


----------



## Hannes_F

JonFairhurst said:


> Here's a document that lays out a Way Forward:
> ‪ https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DzOz3Y6D8g_MNXHNMJYAz1b41_cn535aU5UsN7Lj8X8/mobilebasic‬


Jon, not available any more?


----------



## Guy Bacos

Don't go far Hannes.


----------



## NYC Composer

Guy, Hannes is no longer a moderator, just FYI.


----------



## Guy Bacos

NYC Composer said:


> Guy, Hannes is no longer a moderator, just FYI.



Oh didn't know that.


----------



## JonFairhurst

Hannes_F said:


> Jon, not available any more?


Unfortunately not. I wish that I had copied the content. (I've deleted my post on it.)

Basically, it was an analysis of the Tea Party movement that took lessons from it to develop a strategy. It considered the tactics, where they were successful, where they were not, etc. It also looked at values and considered where positive values could be moved forward with the tactics, as well as where things are incompatible. Basically, the lying and racist elements were incompatible.

It's possible that the document was intended as private to an advocacy group and naive, enthusiastic person posted it and quickly took it down after a quick scold. I don't recall if there was an organization name tied to it.

In any case, I thought that the strategy was awesome. It was a great case study and it did not abandon ethics for power.


----------



## NYC Composer

Jon, that sounds like a great précis. I think the more manuals we can read about effective communication, the better.

Unfortunately, I also think that if we're going to try to retain a set of ethics (as opposed to engaging in an ethics-free campaign of disinformation) we'll be at a disadvantage forever in the Internet age.

I'm not suggesting abandoning morality and truthfulness. I'm saying it's a major challenge going forward. 

Us: Roberts' Rules of Order/Uniform Code Of Military Justice/Geneva Convention. 

Them: "Say anything, win."

Somewhat of a mismatch.


----------



## jcrosby

Aoiichi said:


> Alex Jones ... has a CC license.



A Creative Commons License?


----------



## Soundhound

Cheating/lying/stealing is always the shortest distance between two points. It's how the republicans have taken and held power for 50 years.


----------



## NYC Composer

They didn't have the Internet 50 years ago. Game has changed.


----------



## Soundhound

Yes it's much worse now, and much easier for them to create and disseminate the bullshit, but the lies are the same.


----------



## NYC Composer

I've been thinking about this for a while and I've started to dip my toes back into the news cycle to see if my theories are what's actually starting to happen. Here's what I think:

1. In terms of the way forward, I think the Democrats have found the issue to hang their hat on: The interference of a foreign government in our affairs, and the Republicans' (and the newly elected President's) seeming disinterest in patriotism. Democrats will hammer this issue much in the same way Republicans hammered the email and Benghazi issues. The template is already there for them. The system is "rigged"? "Well, Mr. President Trump, apparently someone helped YOU rig it, as in, cheating....I guess you were right!"

I don't think Dems believe they can keep him out of office with this-they'll just hammer him and the Repubs with it for 2, then 4 years. It's not going to be the whole attack, but it will stay central to their efforts.

The grand prize for investigative journalists has now been established-any proof that Trump or any member of his campaign actively colluded with Russia or Wiki. Speaking of which, I saw an interview in which Assange denied Russia was his source. Lying sack of shit.

2. The Republicans and Trump will counter with the advantages of two powerful military nations cooperating in issues such as the problems in the Middle East and global terrorism, as well as the economic advantages to be had in trade (especially for plutocrats.) There is a racial component here as I believe Trump sees the Russian culture as fellow "white people" rather than the many different ethnicities that make up Russia. Also, Russia and the U.S. joining forces against an economically aggressive and rapidly militarizing China may be part of the narrative.

So those are my brilliant analytical thoughts at present. I know you were all waiting breathlessly


----------



## Soundhound

My breathless patience has been rewarded. Like that a lot Larry. 

Rachel Maddow had a brilliant piece on Putin as prologue to Trump tonight, will post when available.


----------



## chimuelo

Continue beating the drums of defeat.
Just reminds the world of why they were handed thier hats.

Aleppo was just another example of why theyre just not effective at anything other than fundraising.


----------



## jcrosby

FYI This is the press release from the Office of the Director of National Intelligence on Oct 7th confirming Russian involvement in the hack... Should be interesting to see what surfaces in the next 4 weeks...

Link: https://www.dni.gov/index.php/newsroom/press-releases/215-press-releases-2016/1423-joint-dhs-odni-election-security-statement

Transcript:

*Joint DHS and ODNI Election Security Statement *
Friday, October 07, 2016





*DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE*
*WASHINGTON, DC 20511*

*October 07, 2016*

*Joint Statement from the Department of Homeland Security 
and Office of the Director of National Intelligence*
* on Election Security *

The U.S. Intelligence Community (USIC) is confident that the Russian Government directed the recent compromises of e-mails from US persons and institutions, including from US political organizations. The recent disclosures of alleged hacked e-mails on sites like DCLeaks.com and WikiLeaks and by the Guccifer 2.0 online persona are consistent with the methods and motivations of Russian-directed efforts. These thefts and disclosures are intended to interfere with the US election process. Such activity is not new to Moscow—the Russians have used similar tactics and techniques across Europe and Eurasia, for example, to influence public opinion there. We believe, based on the scope and sensitivity of these efforts, that only Russia's senior-most officials could have authorized these activities.

Some states have also recently seen scanning and probing of their election-related systems, which in most cases originated from servers operated by a Russian company. However, we are not now in a position to attribute this activity to the Russian Government. The USIC and the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) assess that it would be extremely difficult for someone, including a nation-state actor, to alter actual ballot counts or election results by cyber attack or intrusion. This assessment is based on the decentralized nature of our election system in this country and the number of protections state and local election officials have in place. States ensure that voting machines are not connected to the Internet, and there are numerous checks and balances as well as extensive oversight at multiple levels built into our election process.

Nevertheless, DHS continues to urge state and local election officials to be vigilant and seek cybersecurity assistance from DHS. A number of states have already done so. DHS is providing several services to state and local election officials to assist in their cybersecurity. These services include cyber “hygiene” scans of Internet-facing systems, risk and vulnerability assessments, information sharing about cyber incidents, and best practices for securing voter registration databases and addressing potential cyber threats. DHS has convened an Election Infrastructure Cybersecurity Working Group with experts across all levels of government to raise awareness of cybersecurity risks potentially affecting election infrastructure and the elections process. Secretary Johnson and DHS officials are working directly with the National Association of Secretaries of State to offer assistance, share information, and provide additional resources to state and local officials.


----------



## jcrosby

And a statement released on the 14th...

https://www.dni.gov/index.php/newsroom/press-releases/215-press-releases-2016/1456-intelligence-community-statement-on-review-of-foreign-influence-on-u-s-elections

*Intelligence Community Statement on Review of Foreign Influence on U.S. Elections *
Wednesday, December 14, 2016






*DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE*
*WASHINGTON, DC 20511

December 14, 2016

Intelligence Community Statement on Review of Foreign Influence on U.S. Elections*

Senior Administration Officials have regularly provided extensive, detailed classified and unclassified briefings to members and staff from both parties on Capitol Hill since this past summer and have continued to do so after Election Day. 

Last week, the President ordered a full Intelligence Community review of foreign efforts to influence recent Presidential elections – from 2008 to present. Once the review is complete in the coming weeks, the Intelligence Community stands ready to brief Congress—and will make those findings available to the public consistent with protecting intelligence sources and methods. We will not offer any comment until the review is complete.


----------



## chimuelo

And now they decide to take action?

Aleppo and this failure are another reason for dismissal.
Maybe the Prez was on vacation, missed the Intel briefing while camlaigninv for Hillart?

Cant figure out why the smartest people fail more than those with no experience.

Anyways, thank them for Trump and the new Supreme Court, with new Fed and USA run like a Corporation.

Perhaps next time you see corruption and lies, take a stand then instead of aftef losing your ass...


----------



## Baron Greuner

The President of what?

Snake Plisskin


Aren't some you totally embarrassed by this lame bloke of 8 years of nothingness? What a fucking shambles of a leadership.


----------



## chimuelo

Since Liberals hate the 1st Amendment it's a discussion between you and me.
Their eyes and ears are covered.

I tried my hardest to support Obama.
But removed his subordinates at every chance.

I want the other establishment GOP leaders removed.

No more D.C. lawyers and thier investors.
I have not forgot about WMD, Housing collapse. ACA lies, Benghazzi, Aleppo.

These are the policies of losers.
Time for a new movement of unity.
Who ever brings that forward has my support.

I even support the losers here continuing to show thier disdain, I like free speech.
Let's you know what others think.

Sneaky lying, shaming political correctness lost its ass big time.
Those who love those tactics can't see or hear us, but we can surely see and hear them....

Girly men are ok by me.


----------



## Soundhound

Good writing, but long. Just need the second half really:


----------



## Guy Bacos

I've only discovered Rachel Maddow about 6 months ago, and since then am always looking forward to her show. 

There are so many trash news network on YouTube, good to have smart people. If other recommendations, other news source, I'd welcome it. Hannity is whining more than the cry baby democrats he's mocking.


----------



## Soundhound

Sean Hannity is a disgusting, low intelligence hack. He got his start working for Newt Gingrich, who next to Donald Trump and Dick Cheney (and ultimately Reagan) will go down as the people to do the most damage to the U.S.


----------



## Guy Bacos

My political personalities hate list:

Another one I can't stand is judge jeanine Pirro and her stupid opening lecturing monologues! What a loud mouth!!! 
She is sour grapes, she struck out in politics in 2005 challenging Hillary but never got the support for it. Trump supporters LOVE her, idolize her! Following close in this list is Michelle Malkin, and Sean Hannity.


----------



## Guy Bacos




----------



## Nick Batzdorf

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/19/o...-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region

Posted in response to people here who criticize my "intolerance" of "differences of opinion" when I say the Republican party is the biggest problem facing our country.

Well, those assholes are probably ending our republic. They're proving me right pretty starkly right now.

And believe me, I sure wish I were wrong.


----------



## NYC Composer

And yet this country elected and re-elected Barack Hussein Obama as recently as 4 years ago.

Have a little faith. Things turn around, usually as a result of a lot of people working hard on it-and there are a lot of people in this country who aren't on board the Trump train.

Meanwhile, the e.c. has voted and it's done. On to the good fight in what ways we can find to fight it.

Nick-sounding the alarm is right and proper. "We're all doomed" is not productive.


----------



## chimuelo

Totally agree, they are ruining the wealthy white Americans Republic who use minorities for photo ops every 4 years.
Their fix for wealth inequality sounded fantastic, but we see they gained enormous wealth from their positions, excellent ROI for thier investors, and thier minorities suffered.
Now we get a different group of CEOs and Billionaires.
We'll see how removing the multitudes of middlemen works out as the electors once again said No Mas Liberales....


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Larry, there are serial killers who did good things before they snapped.

There's no way to undo it: 60+ million people did this even though they knew perfectly well it was wrong.

I'm going to fight like hell, but I think we're probably doomed whether or not it's productive.

And by the way it's official: the EC turned us into a nation of white assholes.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

We've had an unsustainable situation for a while, Chim, but what you're missing is that the biggest victims of our plutocracy just rebelled to make it exponentially worse. I didn't see it ending this way.

The idea that this is just another election and it'll turn around is pure fantasy. Our republic probably won't survive this.


----------



## NYC Composer

Maybe my son can get me out of dissenter 's prison with his intel connections.


----------



## NYC Composer

Btw, the serial killer metaphor is pretty strained. Just sayin.


----------



## JonFairhurst

I'm pissed at my state's electors. A third defected from Hillary. 

I understand the guy who voted for Faith Spotted Eagle. He made it clear that Hillary had not supported native American's strongly. Hell, my wife went to Standing Rock and Hillary remained silent. 

But three votes for Colin Powell? The Sec. State in a Republican administration. The guy who narrated the fake WMD dog and pony show? The guy who did all those Iraq War press conferences with Cheney? A guy who is so deep into the military industrial complex that he can't see it? That's who three of our our bluest-of-blue-state electors voted for? (In Washington State, even white men voted for Clinton over Trump.) WTF?

I've read that they wanted a Republican alternative who might be attractive to Trump electors. Had Hillary and the Democrats identified a sole alternative, I'd support it. But you don't win with that crap from the bottom up. Clearly.

Besides, it wasn't enough to show that the Electoral College is a joke. Maybe had they voted for the ghost of George Washington...


----------



## NYC Composer

What was it you hoped for, Jon-a mission statement or a practical result? I just don't see a way that the latter was going to happen.


----------



## JonFairhurst

Had there been a concerted effort, a practical result would be fine. A protest vote is fine - if it doesn't cost you. A vote aligned with the popular vote is fine.

A vote from Democratic electors for effing Republican war-machine supporter Colin Powell? WTF is that? As a Washington State resident how the hell does that represent me and my 1.74 million like-minded friends?

Here are the valid options:
1) Vote with the popular vote.
2) Vote in a concerted effort to change the practical outcome for the better.
3) Vote your conscience (assuming that it doesn't accidentally create a worse outcome.)
4) Vote for a total joke to make a newsworthy statement in protest of the Electoral College itself (again, when you can do so safely), or
5) Vote for Coli... I mean, go drown yourself.


----------



## NYC Composer

Jon, I understand your point if view but don't share it. Anything but an actual practical result was inconsequential to
me, and I didn't expect it. For me, it's better that fantasyland is over and the real work can begin.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

> Btw, the serial killer metaphor is pretty strained. Just sayin.



It's strained intentionally so you'll see why your logic, while reassuring, doesn't hold up. I tried to convince myself of the same thing at first, but the truth is that voting for Obama four years ago doesn't absolve people of sins for perpetuity.

And it is a sin. They all knew racism and the rest of it is wrong, and they voted to support it anyway.

Actually, now that you mention it, is my "metaphor" really that strained? How many people will die because these monsters take away their health coverage?


----------



## NYC Composer

It's not a matter of absolution. It's a matter of perpetual schizophrenia. Welcome to the United States of America. Sit down. Have a beer and a cheeseburger in eco-friendly containers.
Let's put solar panels on the McMansion and drive a Hummvee at 8 miles a gallon. Btw, we hate intrusive foreign spying unless it's helping our political party.

I'm not trying to be comforting!! I am completely uninterested in expressions of hopelessness about what IS. I want to do what I can to CHANGE the terrible things I see, and it's going to be a protracted enterprise.

Btw-metaphor, analogy, strained comparison-pick your description, but my statement was one of fact, not logic. In the last election, the country elected a mixed race progressive. This time, they elected a white guy with a racist, nativist conservative narrative. Schizophrenia.


----------



## KEnK

Nick Batzdorf said:


> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/19/o...-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region
> 
> Posted in response to people here who criticize my "intolerance" of "differences of opinion" when I say the Republican party is the biggest problem facing our country.
> 
> Well, those assholes are probably ending our republic.


Hi Nick-

I've been reading Krugman for a very long time.
He's always been remarkably prescient, and not just on matters involving economics.
It seems to me like a case for secession. As does Brown's saying "California will launch it's own satellite".

Larry-
I've stopped mentioning this (though I've continued to monitor the thread) because you pretty much said it's not productive as a "way forward".
But more and more it seems to be the only "way forward".
How is it possible to navigate a ship when half of the command structure insists that the world is flat?
That's where we are in a nutshell.

You think it's reasonable to try and stop them at every turn using traditional political means.
I think it's far to late for that.
The American Experiment is Finished.
Killed off by Reagan and those who still deify him and the economic disaster he put in place.
Now there's a revolting Pig occupying the Presidency, appointing only plutocrats and lunatics.
It's done.

I ask all Californians to seriously consider leaving the Disunited States.
Others will follow us.
That to me is a viable and sensible solution, even if unlikely.

Consider it if you're not already doing so.

k


----------



## NYC Composer

k- were you sanguine about the Texas secession movements as well, the southern bloc of South Carolina, Mississippi, Alabama as well? Maybe this is something you've always envisioned, this dissolution of our union. If so, we differ there.

As I said last time though, good luck with your initiative. Everyone has to do the thing they think is right, and you shouldn't take my opinion in this thread or any other as anything but one man's thoughts. We're all bozos on this bus. I'm totally down with respectful dissent.


----------



## chimuelo

Nick Batzdorf said:


> We've had an unsustainable situation for a while, Chim, but what you're missing is that the biggest victims of our plutocracy just rebelled to make it exponentially worse. I didn't see it ending this way.
> 
> The idea that this is just another election and it'll turn around is pure fantasy. Our republic probably won't survive this.



Im just not that paranoid Nick.
I think once Liberals of the wealthiest for sale types are replaced, support might come back.
But Keith Ellison and Pelosi are going to continue losing more and more seats in state and local, as well as Federal.

This started long before Trump, he was just smart enough to see the trends.

Jerry Brown would be a great candidate in 2018.
Jane Kim, Michele Rhee, Tulsi Gabbard, Bernie Sanders, etc.
It would be wise to get behind real Liberals that the Obama Reid Clinton Kerry Pelosi train tried to silence.
They just dont get it.


----------



## KEnK

NYC Composer said:


> were you sanguine about the Texas secession movements as well, the southern bloc of South Carolina, Mississippi, Alabama as well?


Yes indeed I was.
If I was given the opportunity to "vote" on The United States of Texas & Arizona et al,
I most certainly would have- and this was during Obama's 1st term.
Certainly there are many in the Tea Party who have described themselves as "anti-government"-
I think of them and the GOP as a whole as actually treasonous.
The reasons are many, and you're very aware of the recent history- even preceding Obama.

And Larry- you've used the term "schizophrenic" to describe our so-called American psyche.
I agree.
So splitting it in half seems a reasonable cure to the disease.

k


----------



## NYC Composer

Think of the addition of more little geographically aligned fiefdoms to the world,k. Think of the Euro Zone dissolving. Does the world really look safer to you? Are we all to become walled cities then?


----------



## KEnK

I see the break up of the Soviet Union as a good thing-
The people of Estonia are very happy.
Also former Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia_.
_
I don't see the evolution of nationhood as threatening_._
Imo, many of the difficulties in the Middle East were created by lines drawn arbitrarily on a map by European Imperialists.
This was an example of people being coerced to be a nation, it hasn't worked out so well.

So maybe Lincoln was wrong- not about the horrors of Slavery,
but about imposing nationhood on people who clearly didn't want it.
The Dixie Flag has never disappeared, The Confederate Dream never died.
It looks to me now considering the geography that we were never meant to be a United States.
Yankee Go Home sounds pretty right to me right about now.


----------



## Soundhound

I would say we're in a lot of trouble. A lot of people are going to suffer because of all this. It may not be the end of the American experiment, I hope not, but it will be the end of hope for a lot of people.

The last time an incompetent who didn't pay attention to security briefings was in the oval office, 9/11 happened.

This is going to suck. Buckle up.


----------



## NYC Composer

@k-so you would have felt the same way had HRC been elected?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

KEnK, if CA seceding right now were put to the vote (here in CA), I have a feeling it would win. And it certainly will when Txxxx and the Rs get to ruin our republic.



> Btw, we hate intrusive foreign spying unless it's helping our political party.



Speak for yourself. Putin is one of the biggest assholes on the planet, and he has no business interfering with our elections. So far there's no evidence he was able to do as much damage as he wanted - Comey took care of that - but everything about this whole election more than sucks.

And we're not all bozos on this bus. Some of us have spent a lot of time over the years reading to become informed, others just have opinions based on their opinions.

Chim:



> Im just not that paranoid Nick.



It's not paranoia, it's 100% eyes-wide-open realism. Your crap about greedy liberals is just that and it's getting really tired. The policies we support aren't greedy, they're WITT - we're in this together.

Our democracy is hanging on by a thread right now, and I just don't see how it can survive this.


----------



## Soundhound

Today was a bad day. A massacre in Berlin, the Russian ambassador to Turkey is assassinated, Zurich and more. 

And an unhinged, vainglorious, vindictive, profoundly ignorant goon is now the president elect.

Fuck.


----------



## Diffusor

chimuelo said:


> I never ignore losers.
> I prefer reading thier copy/pastes so I don't have to give a recorded hit to thier favorite parrots, who lied and deceived them and continue to.
> 
> The Sheep will continue parroting others ideas, losing more seats, and while they bleed on each other the majority of Americans will remove Conservatives and Liberals again in 2018.
> 
> I am enjoying being ignored by the offended.
> Love being called a racist as they that's a badge of honor.
> 
> Black, Brown, Asian and white racists are just smarter.
> That's why lying, losing, Liberals are history.
> 
> Bye bye to the offended brilliant broke Liberal voter....




rotflmao Just had to chime in Chim. You are just absolutely brilliant in the way you handle them. Keep up the good work. This virtue signaling echo chamber is too much for me to spend energy on. You are a saint in your endurance. My only condolence is that they still don't get it yet and are totally out of touch which bodes well for more losing on their part, on top of the losing they have consistently done since 2010. But I realize it's much easier to double down on the racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, classism routine as it's always the only thing the manipulating liberal elites and their useful brainwashed sheep know how to win with, rather than coming to terms with why they really lost. The funny thing is that Trump knew their game, and used it to his advantage every step of the way. Saul Alinsky would be proud. What these people are really afraid of is that Trump might actually be a great president and might actually accomplish things that help everyone, which will really mix up both the left and right establishment for a long time to come (not that he hasn't already). All hail God Emperor Trump! 

 

<trigger>


----------



## Soundhound

Wow. Saul Alinsky? Really? I was going to say that it's astonishing that anyone could still fall for Trumpism. But if you listen to right wing radio, anything is possible.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Those liberal elitists think they're better than us. And just to prove it, we're going to show them that they are better than us.

This is what Diffusor thinks is so fucking funny:


----------



## NYC Composer

The bit about foreign governments was directed at the disinterest the Republican Party seems to have in the interference, but thanks for missing the irony.

"We're all bozos on this bus" is a quote from Firesign Theater, and it was directed at KenK to say "speak freely" and even if you didn't get the reference, that one was pretty obvious. Again, nice miss.

Btw, who in fuck died and left you the only informed person in charge?


----------



## NYC Composer

Diffusor, thanks for the name calling, generalizing adolescent post. Nothing says intellect like junior high school insults. Well done, you!


----------



## Baron Greuner

Wow this is as predicted by yours truly. 


Liberal extremists on this thread going into denial, then anger and then disbelief and then to fantasy.

Chomp chomp chomp. 

More popcorn. More popcorn.

And well played Mrs Merkel. Awesome.


----------



## Sebastianmu

Baron Greuner said:


> And well played Mrs Merkel. Awesome.


What's that supposed to mean?


----------



## Baron Greuner

Sebastianmu said:


> What's that supposed to mean?



You will find out very very quickly when Trump becomes President of The USA on Jan 20th.

There is probably only one other women that is batshit crazier than Merkel and that is a little known lunatic called Nicola Sturgeon.


----------



## KEnK

NYC Composer said:


> @k-so you would have felt the same way had HRC been elected?


I've already said if members of the former Confederacy wanted to secede even during Obama's 1st term I would've wholeheartedly supported it.

Consider the blind hatred of Clinton.
The bizarre foaming at the mouth comments about "Liberals", "Main Stream Media", etc.
The total lack of understanding that Democracy is itself a Liberal Idea.
The anti-fact, anti-science inclination of the Theocratically Inclined.

Had the election not been tipped by Comey, Putin, and his stooge Assange,
there no doubt would be plenty in the Trailer Park Nation screaming bloody murder.

I would support anyone's wanting to leave the Disunion.
It doesn't matter to me who initiates it. I would support it because the time for it is clearly here.
And it has been heading in that direction since Reagan- 35 years now.
This fruit is more than ripe.
It's already true that the term United States is an oxymoron.

Let them have their Anti-American Plutocracy.
They've been working towards exactly that for decades now- to the detriment of the entire Nation.

The Progressive and Liberal "agenda" (meaning a sustainable future) can best be served by building on the cooperation of the like minded.
Maybe in the future the Republic of California can be accepted into the European Union- Why not?
The Evil and Satanic Left has far more in common w/ the Dark World of Europe than with the True American Island of Kansas.

Throughout History, Nations come and go.
The USA is finished now, undone by both the "Pseudo Patriots" Eisenhower warned us about and the Willfully Ignorant.

Time to move on.
Think of it as a necessary and overdue Divorce.
Our "Romanticized" Past is not enough to keep us together now.

k


----------



## Soundhound

I'm blocking Jimmy and Baron Von Gasbag so I'm not getting full entertainment value here.

Regardless: We are in the midst of one of those gigantic steps backward. Fundamentalism, nationalism, false patriotism, corporate takeover, everything that happens to pave the way for fascism. It's couched as a rejection of the status quo, which in part is quite true. The system has been ripping off the electorate since Reagan. The blue collar workers of the rust belt have indeed been left behind, but nothing is going to bring those jobs back. Nothing. Ever. The cynical, horrific lie that Trump made telling them he would bring back the jobs is going to explode in their faces.

If a true progressive were in power, we could build sustainable energy industries in the very places that have been devastated by the economy moving away from coal and oil. But we have elected not just the opposite of a progressive, but rather the military industrial complex. They are going to rob the country blind, and the ensuing economic devastation will be with us for certainly the rest of my life, if not the rest of the century.

I'm living in Red state america through 2017. I hope that when I return to California the secessionist movement is active and strong.


----------



## NYC Composer

@k-well then, I guess you've found your way forward. I don't share it, but redux upon redux, good luck.


----------



## Baron Greuner

The Peoples Rubublic of California in the EU.

Now that s something I would really pay money to see. Oh yeah baby.

Because then you would have a sudden influx of (wild guess) 10 million plus on your doorstep as a first wave, all demanding housing, benefits and free medical because that is what the EU rules currently dictate and demand.
Pretty soon, the poor lefty indigenous bastards of CA would be screaming for another election, a referendum on leaving the EU, and another referendum about rejoining the Union. This is the politics of Nicola Sturgeon who is crazier than a shithous rat up a drainpipe. Yesmmm.

Take my word for it.


----------



## KEnK

Baron Greuner said:


> The Peoples Rubublic of California in the EU.
> 
> Now that s something I would really pay money to see. Oh yeah baby.


 Hah!
You've been trolled Greuner!


----------



## Baron Greuner

KEnK said:


> Hah!
> You've been trolled Greuner!



Thank Christ for that Ken because for a moment, while replying and reading Guitarist magazine at the same time, I thought you'd gone out of your fuckng mind.


----------



## chimuelo

Well not to offend anyone but Happy Holidays to you and your loved ones.

I hope we can all watch and enjoy a better life style in years to come.
Didn't agree with Obama but he sure left us in good shape compared to the pile of shit Bush left him.

Trump just might pull things off and I would rather support any positive changes than just cover my ears while awaiting instructions from Micheal Moore, Soros or the guys who get it wrong for a living over at the NY Times.

Here's to a way forward that works for all of us, and those unlike us...


Cheerz


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Hey Larry, I know the quote very well. I'm 60 years old.

And look, it's true: not everyone here is equally well informed. I'll leave it at that.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Ah. I just put the good Baron on Ignore.

That's much better.


----------



## Baron Greuner

All these poor liberal extremists all on one thread. Believe me, this is nothing compared what's to come. You gotta learn to take defeat and understand why you got defeated.


----------



## Soundhound

It's a breath of fresh air. Not unlike the cooling evening breeze in the caribbean, where I'm headed tomorrow. If there's still a country after the holidays, I'll be back.



Nick Batzdorf said:


> Ah. I just put the good Baron on Ignore.
> 
> That's much better.


----------



## NYC Composer

I find myself unusually frustrated with this secession idea. It reminds me of the hopes for an unprecedented Electoral College revolution -something that has a .05% chance of seced...er...succeeding.

I read post election interviews with Bernie and Obama last night. Neither mentioned secession. They mentioned involvement, back to basics organizing and mobilizing and the big challenges of media control. I'm of a mind that working for voter registration in non liberal states where voter supression will be a challenge, of working the phones or the emails or the door to doors leading up to the 2018 elections, of protesting in force where there are opportunities to do so; these are practical ways forward. Secession seems to me to be a magic mushroom, pie in the sky proposition.


----------



## JonFairhurst

NYC Composer said:


> Jon, I understand your point if view but don't share it. Anything but an actual practical result was inconsequential to
> me, and I didn't expect it. For me, it's better that fantasyland is over and the real work can begin.



But which points don't you agree with? #1 was with the popular vote and #2 would be a concerted effort with practical effect, but because Hillary, the DNC, and #NeverTrump Republicans didn't direct it, this option didn't really didn't exist. Items 3 and 4 were protest votes, which are symbolic.

The problem with voting for Colin Powell is exactly what you disliked: fantasyland. It wasn't the popular vote, practically reasonable, or a statement. It was just stupid.

You're not saying that you liked that Democratic electors voted for CP, are you?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

No question, secession isn't particularly likely. But it could happen if things get bad enough.

What I think is more likely when the Rfux murder people by taking away their healthcare: normal states band together with our own ACA. Same with other social programs these assholes want to end by privatizing them.

Virtual secession, in other words.

Can you imagine a visitor from outer space looking at this? He'd scratch his head with his tentacles and wonder why almost half the people in our country are total morons, when there's nothing physically different about them.


----------



## KEnK

NYC Composer said:


> I find myself unusually frustrated with this secession idea. It reminds me of the hopes for an unprecedented Electoral College revolution -something that has a .05% chance of seced...er...succeeding.


Actually I never thought the EC was at all likely to flip the election-
But secession, as unlikely as it is, has far more historic precedent- even in recent history.
Nations dissolve. It's happened often in our lifetime. The EC overturning the vote- not.
Further, the rest of your post, full of "positive" workable ideas (voter reg, organizing etc)
doesn't deal at all w/ the inherent "schism" our nation suffers from.
Secession deals w/ this directly.
Let Kansas be Kansas, and California be California.

It's a workable viable possibility, and it has happened here.
Latvia is just fine.
Slovenia is fine.
Slovakia is fine.
History is filled with Nations Dissolving.
The US is just one more.
It's not working and hasn't been working and is getting worse.
You're aware of History Larry-
It's Time to call it quits.

k

p.s. Surely you read about Gingrich wanting to roll back the "Roosevelt Model".
This is positively Un-American! What more needs to be said?
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016...ning-washington-upside-down.html?refresh=true


----------



## NYC Composer

i don't think the comparison of Latvia, Slovenia or Slovakia to the impactful nature of the U.S. (for better or worse) holds water. (Funny, a good pal of mine is a Slovenian journalist. I'll have to run this by him.)

I think that secession is highly unlikely and would be an impractical nightmare. Repeating what I said earlier, I think the U.S. and the European Union dissolving makes the world less safe as well. More walled cities do not promote world security.

Regarding that pompous blowhard Gingrich, he's been calling from the same playbook since the 80s. There's no doubt here-the would-be tyrants and Ayn Randian plutocratic assholes have just seized power. It's going to be a disheartening battle, but I still think Medicare and SS are politically harder to screw with than the Ryans of the world think. I hope I'm right.

To Nick's point, what happens if healthcare is wrested from the families of millions of people-nothing but a whimper? I wonder.


----------



## NYC Composer

JonFairhurst said:


> But which points don't you agree with? #1 was with the popular vote and #2 would be a concerted effort with practical effect, but because Hillary, the DNC, and #NeverTrump Republicans didn't direct it, this option didn't really didn't exist. Items 3 and 4 were protest votes, which are symbolic.
> 
> The problem with voting for Colin Powell is exactly what you disliked: fantasyland. It wasn't the popular vote, practically reasonable, or a statement. It was just stupid.
> 
> You're not saying that you liked that Democratic electors voted for CP, are you?


Jon-I disagreed in a general manner that any of it mattered unless it was going to keep Trump out of office, which to my mind it never was. That was all I meant to say.

Obviously, it mattered to you, so we're just looking at this from different points of view. I didn't mean your opinion was invalid and I meant no disrespect with my non-specific "disagreement."


----------



## chimuelo

Medicaid is already in place and much better the ACA.
Americans working and Corporations only need to follow real progressive models in place in Nevada.

This puts Corporations in a higher place of leverage, which is not tolerated by rich fake Liberals.
They have nobody to blame for failed policies like we see in Detroit, Chicago, Philadelphia, Baltimore and more recently Dallas.
Underfunded pensions, etc.

If Federal Law were to be followed these cities would still be able to sell bonds but at a greatly reduced rate which would force these phony Mayors to not be allowed to kick the can to the next lying bastards.
Then any Corporation deciding to stay in these districts will now start funding the programs which kind of negates the need for rich white Liberals to further enrich themselves at the expense of the inhabitants they "serve so well."


----------



## Soundhound

No secession isn't going to happen, of course not. To me it's more of an articulation of how a lot of people are feeling right now, and I think in many cases it's heartfelt.

What does bear watching is the increasing gap between states where the republicans have solid control, and those where democrats have solid control. That's, um, everywhere vs. California?

So many states where aca is having trouble in large part because the reactionary right is refusing to participate. The same states where it's essentially impossible to get an abortion.

Seems like the gap will widen between the habitable and inhabitable U.S. Add to that the shitstorm that Trump and his cabinet of death are about to unleash, and the divide will widen further.

The bullshit gerrymandering in North Carolina has actually been deemed unconstitutional in court isn't that right? But it'll be a year before it can take effect and then I imagine another year before changes can be made. Maybe in time for 2018? A glimmer of hope in the distance there...

Boy can I not wait to get back to the left coast.


----------



## NYC Composer

Soundhound said:


> No secession isn't going to happen, of course not. To me it's more of an articulation of how a lot of people are feeling right now, and I think in many cases it's heartfelt.



Maybe. It rubs me the wrong way. I guess I can accept the notion that I'm too pragmatic, but really, what does all this writhing, gnashing of teeth and venting accomplish? Believe me, I have plenty to worry and complain about, not the least of which is the funhouse mirror of reversed positions. Suddenly stimulus is good, Goldman Sachs is good, generals actually know something, inexperienced billionaires are perfect for government, Russia's our new best friend etc etc. Galling. Still, this is what is, damnit. I'm not giving up.


----------



## Soundhound

I don't see it as giving up, more like coming to grips with the fact that it may indeed be this way for a good long while. The country has been moving ever to the right—unsteadily, with plenty of pushback—since Reagan sold out the middle class to corporate America, using the primitive evangelical right and the big lie of trickle down to bring in the votes. Every election the republicans put up someone more preposterous than the last time (bush sr. being the exception, and he bombed the fuck out of the middle east to protect the oil industry interests, so no gold star for him). And each time I thought it couldn't get worse. And each time I've been proven wrong. After Sarah Palin I thought surely this is the bottom of the barrel. Wrong again. Always.

That doesn't mean I don't think it could some day turn around. What it does mean is I absolutely think there is going to be some kind of shitstorm that is going to hurt a lot of people from this most disgusting of all elections in our nation's history.


----------



## NYC Composer

I agree, but for progressives, isn't this self evident? It's like saying the sky is blue a few times a day!


----------



## KEnK

Here in California the Voter Initiative Process is such that anything
that gets enough signatures can be on the ballot, and people here do love to sign petitions.
For all it's flaws, it is the closest thing to Direct Democracy in the US.
I'll be very surprised if a secession proposition is not on the next ballot or so-
and when it is, I'll vote for it. At the very least it will be a loudly heard message.

I'm not comparing the US to Latvia, or South Sudan, etc,
just pointing out that Nation Restructuring happens all the time. It's not so alien at all.
Consider again the unexpected breakup of the USSR.
No one thought that was going to happen.

Larry, one of the points of your questioning the preposterous nature of
reforming the US, is "Who will be the World's Police Force"?
A fair question- but it brings to mind a philosophical question that seems to be
to be at the bottom of all these discussions.

That being the Imposition of Will on People who don't want it.
Has it occurred to you that all the planned marching and organizing and political wrangling being talked about will result only in the Imposition of the "Leftist/Liberal Will" on millions of people who clearly object to it?

What will change if the Left succeeds in its agenda?
Nothing. We'll still be a Nation Divided, w/ extremely different ideas about Right and Wrong,
and what Government should or shouldn't do.
Nothing will be solved.
How do you propose to change the mindset of my Lunatic Tea Party relatives in Az or Fla?
I'll answer for you- You can't.
Obama is the Anti Christ and Hillary is Satan herself.
Where is the Way Forward to solve that core issue?

You witnessed the stark differences between the 2 conventions.
One was about Fear and Hatred and the other about Inclusiveness and Acceptance.

This is nothing new in Our Nation, though it has in recent years become
every bit as extreme as any time since the Civil War-
And that is in fact the Crux of the Entire Dilemma.
The Nation never healed from the Civil War.
Dixie has always been with us- though marginalized.

So I ask you how you can talk about a Way Forward that doesn't include the people diametrically opposed to everything you believe in?

To be honest, I'm very Left, even a devout Socialist- so we agree on most of everything
and where we don't the differences are small.

But you can't say that of the Guy from West Virginia who wants to go back to his Mining job.
He thinks of his wife as "property", that people who aren't White are suspect of all manner of evil.
What's the way Forward for You and Him?

There isn't one.
That's why Dissolving the Union is a Sensible Solution that deals directly w/ root causes.

ok
enough of that from me

k


----------



## NYC Composer

K,

Yes, I know about propositions. Let's say a secession proposition gets on the ballot, which as you say could very well happen. I think it's doubtful it would pass and even more doubtful that the secession would be allowed by the country, not to mention the rash of secession initiatives that would follow from other states.

If all of that is true, then it's a quixotic gesture intended to make a point rather than to move ANYTHING forward, really.
Is that a good thing? Maybe. Personally, I'm more interested in purely pragmatic solutions, or at least attainable goals.

Your argument for dissolution is a well reasoned one. We disagree for the reasons I've stated, no need to go over the same ground. What can I say-I've been married to the same woman for 33 years. I've lived in NYC for 38. Raised my son here. Lived in NY state all my life, in these here United States. I love this country despite all of its dysfunctions. I don't want to see this grand experiment die. I guess I'm essentially a stayer. Cheers.


----------



## Soundhound

Not at all. i think that's why normalizing became a catch word. remember milton friedman and the reagan democrats? people saw trickle down at first for the sham it was, but with reagans insistent selling after a while people started to buy it. same thing here with trumpism. if america can accept such an obviously dangerous fool as president, if nazis and racists feel safe coming out of the woodwork, what else can happen?

you can't possibly holler loud or long enough about this shit. reaching out to the other side and hearing them is critical, but stick to your guns.



NYC Composer said:


> I agree, but for progressives, isn't this self evident? It's like saying the sky is blue a few times a day!


----------



## KEnK

Ok-

I don't need or intend to keep on w/ the secession argument-
I've made by point and I'll leave it there
but I have to post this timely bit of political fluff from the WP.
The ingredients are here for secession- and from both sides of the schism.
The comments are also interesting- quite a bit of talk about Ca leaving.
(at least when I read them- no doubt they'll get dumbed down as time goes on)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/12/20/why-californias-voters-were-so-anti-trump-that-some-republicans-dont-want-to-include-them-in-2016-totals/?utm_term=.ad68a5f27c69


----------



## JonFairhurst

Bill O'Reilly is right. There is a war on Christmas. 

But he didn't understand who was fighting it, nor their tactics.


----------



## JonFairhurst

One thing about secession. It's possible that the leavers are the losers.

Consider if the west coast left. They will be much less powerful than the remaining states, and the remaining US will move strongly to the right. The NE will get stomped, politically. The US likely becomes a true, right-wing dictatorship. And the west coast would live under that shadow. And if that dictator then decides to take back the west by force, destroy the infrastructure and jail the opposition, well, that would be bad.

On the other hand, imagine the deep south + Texas leaving. Now the right wing country is small and the remaining liberal country is large and strong. Texas might exert power with oil, but Canada and the middle East counter it. The South doesn't have enough economic power that the remaining US would care. And a liberal government is less likely to grab the war paint and go all Apocalypse Now on the South. Basically, the South would just become another third world resource provider - which is exactly the right wing vision of a few haves and many have-nots.

Given this, I'd much sooner boot the South than leave.


----------



## KEnK

Well it's all supposition based on an unlikely scenario.
Can't see Herr Trump invading Ca- Though he might follow Lincoln's lead in that regard.
The South aren't going to leave because they're to dependent on the Liberal Elite States they despise.
But if the entire West Coasts splits- can New England be far behind?
It's no more that a word game at this point-
but I'm voting for it if I have a chance.


----------



## Soundhound

good things happening back home

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-pol-ca-californians-trump-critics-20161216-htmlstory.html


----------



## Soundhound

i'd vote for it early and often!




KEnK said:


> Well it's all supposition based on an unlikely scenario.
> Can't see Herr Trump invading Ca- Though he might follow Lincoln's lead in that remgard.
> The South aren't going to leave because they're to dependent on the Liberal Elite States they despise.
> But if the entire West Coasts splits- can New England be far behind?
> It's no more that a word game at this point-
> but I'm voting for it if I have a chance.


tedte


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Larry:



> what does all this writhing, gnashing of teeth and venting accomplish?



It's exactly the one thing that's going to mobilize normal people going forward.

***

By the way, I don't believe that secession is categorically off the table for CA in perpetuity. Just wait until these monsters start dismantling our country and everything it stands for. Support for it could easily build.

Also, the argument that whatever it is - 2/3? - of other states have to allow it always strikes me as a little unclear on the concept.


----------



## NYC Composer

Nick-

"Normal people"= who?

Nothing's off the table in perpetuity, but in the long run-we're all dead.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Normal people = not white assholes and/or chumps who voted for Txxxx. Also, not Rfux.

The long run, John Maynard, won't be overnight, but wait until these evil fuckers start damaging the country. As I keep saying, I give our republic a 50/50 chance of surviving.


----------



## NYC Composer

I agree- you do keep saying it.

So (and I really want to be clear about your thinking here) no "white asshole", no one who voted for Trump nor any Republican fits your definition of "normal." Do I have it right?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Yes.


----------



## NYC Composer

'k. 

Much as I admire your passion, we don't speak the same language, in word or tone. It matters to me.


----------



## JonFairhurst

Here's an interesting thought. Trump hasn't held a press conference since July - 147 days ago. He talks at us, not with us. So, what to do?

At some point, his opposition should mount a huge effort to force Twitter to suspend Trump's Twitter account. Given the choice of pissing off Trump or losing tens of millions of users overnight, I don't think Twitter would take a Silicon Valley nanosecond to figure out what is in the best interest of their shareholders. Once a Social Media company loses its users, they'll go elsewhere and Twitter will never get them back. Remember MySpace?

FWIW, the longest time from election to press conference since 1976 was Bill Clinton at nine days. Trump is up to 43 days with nothing scheduled. The guy can't handle the heat.

If the rest of the media had balls, they'd be saying, "No questions? No coverage." But Mr. Horrible brings ratings. Maybe more boycotts are needed. 

In other words, don't bring the pitchforks to the White House or Trump Tower. Bring them to Rockefeller Plaza.

Certainly, press conferences won't solve everything (or even close to everything), but we need to enforce some kind of accountability. If Trump can perpetrate horrible deeds without having to at least face tough questions, there is no limit to what he might do. 

It's up to the people to force the Fourth Estate to do it's job.


----------



## NYC Composer

That's a really interesting idea, Jon. Almost makes me wish I was a Tweeter. 

Almost.


----------



## NYC Composer

KenK- I assume you realized I was using shorthand for "ok" and responding to Nick?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Larry, to be exact: everyone who voted for Txxxx is a white asshole and/or a chump. No exceptions.

As to the Republican party who are the only ones who can stop this motherfucker from bringing down our republic, yes, fuck them. They're encouraging him, not fighting for our country, and the policies they're enthusiastic about are going to kill people just like stabbing them with a knife. They have no respect for the values our country is supposed to hold; all they care about is power (look at NC).

(Yes, we have a history of racism, but the civil rights era was half a century ago; everyone knows racism is wrong today, and it's also unConstitutional now.)

And you think it's just a respectful disagreement and we're supposed to reach out to them?!

Life is never going to be the same in this country, at least not for decades. This is how it ends: not with have-nots rebelling against oppressive oligarchs, but with have-nots suicide-bombing our country.


----------



## Soundhound

Yes! What a great idea (closing his twitter account). i've been wondering what it's going to be like when he finally has a press conference and has to answer real questions. He's so intellectually and emotionally incompetent i don't think he could manage it. maybe he'll never have one, must be a big strategy headache for conway and preibus, the geobels twins.


----------



## NYC Composer

Nick-just kill yourself now. Spare yourself the pain.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

What does that mean? It's annoying, but other than that what's your point?

You want to reach out to monsters who can't be reached. What they believe is totally nuts - I've seen some of their posts on Facebook (before I block them most of the time), and there's simply no way to reason with someone like that.

I want to mobilize normal people who are reachable.


----------



## KEnK

NYC Composer said:


> KenK- I assume you realized I was using shorthand for "ok" and responding to Nick?


Yes- It tool me a minute though- 
I wrote a response but deleted it minutes later when I realized it was irrelevant.


----------



## KEnK

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I want to mobilize normal people who are reachable.


But the monsters will still be there Nick-
No matter what occurs politically, Our Nation is about 50% vile idiots.
They're not going away- especially now.

That's why I advocate leaving


----------



## Soundhound

that sentiment would encourage mass suicide at this point:

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/topoftheticket/la-na-tt-american-dread-20161220-story.html




NYC Composer said:


> Nick-just kill yourself now. Spare yourself the pain.


----------



## NYC Composer

Good. I'm starting to despise weak white liberals. All y'all go take some drugs or commit mass suicide. I think the herd needs thinning, then those of us who are angry but grimly determined can move ahead.

This crisis will certainly test our republic. We'll see. I'm not about to cry or lash out at 50 million people, calling names and various other puerile behaviors. I'll be on the front lines calling out and fighting tyranny. 

Here's some tissues.

Y'all are pissing me off. Can you tell?


----------



## chimuelo

Personally I think CalExit would be a great form of competition.
You'd lose Federal Parks, Defense Contractors, bases and all of the Red Counties of the San Jouaquin.
But the shipping ports would still be a place to regulate trade, make all of the WalMart folks pay more.

The Chinese already outsmarted Sacramento by increasing trade with Mexico, using their ports and built that Super Highway through Rosarita Beach.
That was in response to Longshoremen strikes because even though China owns Long Beach, they only own the Naval Yards we "gave" them in one of those awesome trade deals.
When ports get busy, head south for Trucking.
Mexico loves it.

They have NAFTA as a back up plan and screw us with Trucking as the regulations for American Trucks are overwhelming, but not for trucks coming in from Mexico.
They don't even get inspected until they've travelled 100 miles inland.

Better check with those cities where negotiations to cut pension checks by 60% in Cali were recently put on hold as the market went to 19986 this week.
Stockton might even make a comeback.
Another once proud port destroyed by Liberal fiscal policy.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Nothing has ever been destroyed by liberal fiscal policy. Not one thing.


----------



## NYC Composer

Nick Batzdorf said:


> What does that mean? It's annoying, but other than that what's your point?
> 
> You want to reach out to monsters who can't be reached. What they believe is totally nuts - I've seen some of their posts on Facebook (before I block them most of the time), and there's simply no way to reason with someone like that.
> 
> I want to mobilize normal people who are reachable.



It means stop whining. Stop. Whining. Or really-move to Canada or Finland, or take some pills, or work for secession but stop with the "all is lost" crap, because it's _utterly_ annoying. I GET it already.

No, there are people we won't ever move. Then there are some people who were on the fence and went for Trump for their reasons. Then there are people who didn't vote. Those latter two are the ones I want to reach out to. Make enough of a case to the voters in states that swing elections. You know, the ones we lost but shouldn't have.


----------



## chimuelo

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Nothing has ever been destroyed by liberal fiscal policy. Not one thing.



Well you should visit the midwestern Liberal neighborhoods, not the burned down ones, the ones close to default like Chicago.

You can hate Trump all you want, but if he brings growth to the economy Liberal fiscal policy might get another decade of pension checks.


----------



## chimuelo

Nobody's going to move.
Wealthy white Liberals will stay just for the tax breaks.
They're quite Conservative when it's their money.

Remember Gore sold out for millions less to Qatar just to finish the deal before the Bush tax cuts expired....

Gotta pay your fair share right...


----------



## chimuelo

Speaking of reaching out....
Better elect Keith Ellison to head the DNC.
If you don't you're an Islamaphobe and a racist....


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Chim, what does any of that have to do with liberal fiscal policy? Zero.

It looks to me like you don't even know what fiscal policy is, liberal or otherwise.

And yes, I do hate Txxxx all my soul. I've never hated anyone as much. There's absolutely no mechanism by which he can bring growth to the economy in anything other than the very short term, and he's angling to become a despot. Every sign is there.

Liberal fiscal policy. It's all so fucking upsetting. Our democracy is ending, and people are busy talking stupid shit everywhere.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Larry, I'm not whining. If you got it you wouldn't call it that.

YOU move. All is on its way to being lost, and it's not crap, it's reality. Open your eyes.

Every sign is there, from attacking the press to the ad hoc "factory saving" for his friends, and on and on.


----------



## chimuelo

Liberal fiscal policy is taxing the citizens so much they move out of the city to the county, leaving nobody left to tax except businesses, who then can't afford to hire, which makes bonds hard sells, which means those pensions are at risk.

These facts are evident if you take any large city and look at their tax revenue outlays.

When the coach can't win he is replaced.

Just seems you prefer to believe those who misled you.
We can't afford to continue losing foreign policy, and domestic over and over.
8 years of Liberal policy failures for a cost of 10,000,000,000,000 is enough.
If the Republic was going to end trust me, Obama would have succeeded.
He ruined lots of other places but thankfully we survived the faculty lounge experiments.

Things will be great.
The billionaires who buy Liberals and Conservatives simply cut out the middlemen.

Americans have seen 1.4 trillion dollars of wealth created just knowing Liberals are gone.
Just think how nice it will be in another year.


----------



## NYC Composer

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Larry, I'm not whining. If you got it you wouldn't call it that.
> 
> YOU move. All is on its way to being lost, and it's not crap, it's reality. Open your eyes.
> 
> Every sign is there, from attacking the press to the ad hoc "factory saving" for his friends, and on and on.


I can't get it, Nick. You're the only smart person in the universe. Humble, too.
I ain't movin', and I ain't whinin'.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

chim, your opinion is so far removed from reality it's just absurd.

Larry, what is your fucking problem? This is the off-topic discussion section, not the Larry Try to Wind Up Nick section.

I have every right to be upset, and it's totally appropriate. If you don't like that, block me. But don't resort to lame insults.


----------



## NYC Composer

Why not? Every time you say "you don't get it" when I disagree with you, you're calling me stupid. I'm really tired of it.

The thread title is "The Way Forward", not "We're All Doomed." How about adding something that's on topic? There has been plenty of recognition of the horrendous challenges and the ongoing stupidities. Yet another billionaire was added to the Cabinet yesterday. YES-it's a CLUSTERFUCK. It's EPIC. What are you going to try and do about it??


----------



## Baron Greuner

Whoa boys! My fucking cats could wind you guys up. Ease down.

Find your local IKEA and go and have a sleep over.


----------



## Soundhound

Did you read Krugman's latest piece Larry? He's worried, seriously worried. Is he being a crybaby? I think there's a distinction between demonizing the other side and fully warranted outrage at the coming Trump administration that you're not making, or maybe you don't want to make. And as you say, it's starting to piss me off. 

I don't get how anyone could vote for trump who isn't either not very smart and/or uncaring about others. But I don't live in the rust belt and haven't watched the industry that has been my family's lifeblood for generations disappear. I get how that person would be a great target for someone coming in and saying he's going to fix everything. 

What I don't get is how someone could welcome that message when it's mixed with scapegoating and hate, which is what fascists always do. And when the message is completely bereft of any substance, any support for how he's going to do what he says he will do. how does someone buy into that? Fear? Can I empathize with someone willing to hurt others because they fear for their own well being? I think Nick is saying fuck no to that question.


----------



## germancomponist

The most important thing in life are orgasms! Long after that comes nothing at all. Oh, eating and drinking is also important. So what?


----------



## Vischebaste

germancomponist said:


> The most important thing in life are orgasms! Long after that comes nothing at all. Oh, eating and drinking is also important. So what?



Trump's latest tweet?


----------



## Baron Greuner

If any liberal extremists here want to send me your case notes, I would be happy to advise on any increase in current medication as a 31 day free trial.


----------



## KEnK

chimuelo said:


> Liberal fiscal policy is taxing the citizens so much they move out of the city to the county, leaving nobody left to tax except businesses,...


Chim-
A personal question if you don't mind...
Have you spent much time in Europe? other than a 2 week vacation?

I used to do an annual European tour- months long.
We played everywhere, from Trondheim (just south of the Arctic circle) to Italy,
from Spain to Kharkov (though not much in France)
This was year after year, got to know people well.
Lived in Berlin for a year, spent a lot of time in the Czech Republic.

Point is I know for a fact that the standard of living is way higher there than here-
and this is even in the less well off countries (Greece being an exception).
The tax rate is in fact higher there than here- but people "get things" for that-
Health Care is a right, College Education is a right, 4-6 weeks of vacation, etc
Recycling and environmental concern is embedded in day to day living- it's not a Right/Left issue.
It's much better for musicians too and all artists and craftpersons as well-
I would still be living there except for falling in Love w/ the woman who would become my wife.

The fiscal policies in this country are generally not Liberal- we are still living under the fx of Reaganomics-
And that is when the middle class started going to hell. etc, etc, etc.
Look at the numbers- the vast difference of CEO etc pay compared to the working stiff-
It's not progress- it's not free enterprise- it's criminal- and that economic "Free Market" policy
is what has destroyed the middle class- not "Liberal" attempts to fix it

I could go on but I think you get my point-
We haven't been living under "Liberal" economic policy even during Clinton and Obama.
Free Market is good only for the "Ruling Class"
Greenspan- the designer of this path said he was wrong.
GOP financial policy is/has been/will be a measurable economic disaster.

It makes no sense to blame Liberal policies for the mess we're in when we haven't actually had very much of it at all.

Europe is better. Socialism is better. 
The US was better until Reaganomics.
It's Roosevelt's "American Style Socialism" that created the Middle Class.
It's Reagan's Free Market and GOP deregulation that destroyed it.
This is quite clear- look at the numbers

k


----------



## NYC Composer

Soundhound said:


> Did you read Krugman's latest piece Larry? He's worried, seriously worried. Is he being a crybaby? I think there's a distinction between demonizing the other side and fully warranted outrage at the coming Trump administration that you're not making, or maybe you don't want to make. And as you say, it's starting to piss me off.
> 
> I don't get how anyone could vote for trump who isn't either not very smart and/or uncaring about others. But I don't live in the rust belt and haven't watched the industry that has been my family's lifeblood for generations disappear. I get how that person would be a great target for someone coming in and saying he's going to fix everything.
> 
> What I don't get is how someone could welcome that message when it's mixed with scapegoating and hate, which is what fascists always do. And when the message is completely bereft of any substance, any support for how he's going to do what he says he will do. how does someone buy into that? Fear? Can I empathize with someone willing to hurt others because they fear for their own well being? I think Nick is saying fuck no to that question.


Greg, what you're not getting is that I agree with EVERY SINGLE THING you're saying, except this-I refuse to hate people. I hate plutocracy, hucksterism, disinformation, fearmongering, racism, fascism, lack of compassion, lots of things. I'm distressed when people are too Ayn Rand-ian, selfish or short sighted, I deplore their ideas no matter where they got them. I'm deeply upset when they let their fears move them towards nativism and isolationism and xenophobia...but I won't hate them and won't be engaged in generalizing them and sneering at their stupidity.

All that said, NONE OF THAT IS WHY I STARTED THIS THREAD. It's all there in the thread title and the OP. This is not the outrage thread. This is not the "it's all over" thread. This is the "what do we do to combat this menace" thread, and I'm on the verge of giving up because y'all want it to be something else. Even the idea of using the secession initiative as a protest is at least something to be reasoned out. 

I think the alarm has been sounded and it's a clarion call. If people are upset or depressed they should get up off the ground and fucking fight together.

I'm going to raise and contribute more money to the ACLU and environmental causes. I'm going to march. I'm going to write. I'm going to do voter registration. I'm going to search for ideas like I wanted to do here, among smart folks.I'm going to aim myself at 2018 like a laser. I'm going to listen to Warren and Sanders and whoever else picks up the mantle and do what I can to move the ball forward. I like the Twitter idea. I like the boycotts that are springing up around the country. I'll probably make a list.

Now, TO THE TOPIC, what ideas do YOU have?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

I'm saying you're missing a point when I say you don't get it, Larry. That's not the same thing as stupid. At worst it's being uninformed, and that's easy to fix.

My suggestion is that we start a new thread if it bothers you that this isn't 52 pages of suggestions for the way forward.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Chim, I should explain why my head explodes when I read your ridiculous post. It seems obvious, but it's not to you:

The *exact* reason the current recovery has been slow and isn't complete is because of fiscal austerity! Local governments especially cut spending in the middle of a depression.

And you blame liberals! It's Republicans who are always on about cutting spending. They would rather the money go to rich people.

Jesus FC.


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## NYC Composer

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I'm saying you're missing a point when I say you don't get it, Larry. That's not the same thing as stupid. At worst it's being uninformed, and that's easy to fix.
> 
> My suggestion is that we start a new thread if it bothers you that this isn't 52 pages of suggestions for the way forward.



It seems I am constantly missing your points, Nick. Who's winding who up? 

I suggest you start a thread about whatever interests you. I started one about something that interests me. 

There's usually some digression in any thread, but I'm asking you to stay on topic, which is a reasonable request.


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## robh

Nick Batzdorf said:


> The *exact* reason the current recovery has been slow and isn't complete is because of fiscal austerity! Local governments especially cut spending in the middle of a depression.
> 
> And you blame liberals! It's Republicans who are always on about cutting spending. They would rather the money go to rich people.
> 
> Jesus FC.


From what I've read, Detroit has filed for bankruptcy because they kept borrowing to pay their bills, and eventually they were called on it. How does your idea of spending during a depression work for a local government like Detroit?

Rob


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## Hannes_F

Nick is on that utterly wrong train of thought as long as I know him and will not change. Almost everybody else including many so called Keynesians has. It is an intellectual impasse only believed in by the mathematically weak.


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## Soundhound

First, it's Doug, not Greg which is hilarious because people have called me greg often my whole life. less hilariously, i've posted lots of ideas here. i'm on vacation right now with intermittent/dicey internet. i'll post a more comprehensive reply later or in a day or so. and maybe in that time you will have calmed the fuck down and, even if ever so slightly, gotten down off your goddamn fucking high horse. 



NYC Composer said:


> Greg, what you're not getting is that I agree with EVERY SINGLE THING you're saying, except this-I refuse to hate people. I hate plutocracy, hucksterism, disinformation, fearmongering, racism, fascism, lack of compassion, lots of things. I'm distressed when people are too Ayn Rand-ian, selfish or short sighted, I deplore their ideas no matter where they got them. I'm deeply upset when they let their fears move them towards nativism and isolationism and xenophobia...but I won't hate them and won't be engaged in generalizing them and sneering at their stupidity.
> 
> All that said, NONE OF THAT IS WHY I STARTED THIS THREAD. It's all there in the thread title and the OP. This is not the outrage thread. This is not the "it's all over" thread. This is the "what do we do to combat this menace" thread, and I'm on the verge of giving up because y'all want it to be something else. Even the idea of using the secession initiative as a protest is at least something to be reasoned out.
> 
> I think the alarm has been sounded and it's a clarion call. If people are upset or depressed they should get up off the ground and fucking fight together.
> 
> I'm going to raise and contribute more money to the ACLU and environmental causes. I'm going to march. I'm going to write. I'm going to do voter registration. I'm going to search for ideas like I wanted to do here, among smart folks.I'm going to aim myself at 2018 like a laser. I'm going to listen to Warren and Sanders and whoever else picks up the mantle and do what I can to move the ball forward. I like the Twitter idea. I like the boycotts that are springing up around the country. I'll probably make a list.
> 
> Now, TO THE TOPIC, what ideas do YOU have?



m


KEnK said:


> Chim-
> A personal question if you don't mind...
> Have you spent much time in Europe? other than a 2 week vacation?
> 
> I used to do an annual European tour- months long.
> We played everywhere, from Trondheim (just south of the Arctic circle) to Italy,
> from Spain to Kharkov (though not much in France)
> This was year after year, got to know people well.
> Lived in Berlin for a year, spent a lot of time in the Czech Republic.
> 
> Point is I know for a fact that the standard of living is way higher there than here-
> and this is even in the less well off countries (Greece being an exception).
> The tax rate is in fact higher there than here- but people "get things" for that-
> Health Care is a right, College Education is a right, 4-6 weeks of vacation, etc
> Recycling and environmental concern is embedded in day to day living- it's not a Right/Left issue.
> It's much better for musicians too and all artists and craftpersons as well-
> I would still be living there except for falling in Love w/ the woman who would become my wife.
> 
> The fiscal policies in this country are generally not Liberal- we are still living under the fx of Reaganomics-
> And that is when the middle class started going to hell. etc, etc, etc.
> Look at the numbers- the vast difference of CEO etc pay compared to the working stiff-
> It's not progress- it's not free enterprise- it's criminal- and that economic "Free Market" policy
> is what has destroyed the middle class- not "Liberal" attempts to fix it
> 
> I could go on but I think you get my point-
> We haven't been living under "Liberal" economic policy even during Clinton and Obama.
> Free Market is good only for the "Ruling Class"
> Greenspan- the designer of this path said he was wrong.
> GOP financial policy is/has been/will be a measurable economic disaster.
> 
> It makes no sense to blame Liberal policies for the mess we're in when we haven't actually had very much of it at all.
> 
> Europe is better. Socialism is better.
> The US was better until Reaganomics.
> It's Roosevelt's "American Style Socialism" that created the Middle Class.
> It's Reagan's Free Market and GOP deregulation that destroyed it.
> This is quite clear- look at the numbers
> 
> k





NYC Composer said:


> Greg, what you're not getting is that I agree with EVERY SINGLE THING you're saying, except this-I refuse to hate people. I hate plutocracy, hucksterism, disinformation, fearmongering, racism, fascism, lack of compassion, lots of things. I'm distressed when people are too Ayn Rand-ian, selfish or short sighted, I deplore their ideas no matter where they got them. I'm deeply upset when they let their fears move them towards nativism and isolationism and xenophobia...but I won't hate them and won't be engaged in generalizing them and sneering at their stupidity.
> 
> All that said, NONE OF THAT IS WHY I STARTED THIS THREAD. It's all there in the thread title and the OP. This is not the outrage thread. This is not the "it's all over" thread. This is the "what do we do to combat this menace" thread, and I'm on the verge of giving up because y'all want it to be something else. Even the idea of using the secession initiative as a protest is at least something to be reasoned out.
> 
> I think the alarm has been sounded and it's a clarion call. If people are upset or depressed they should get up off the ground and fucking fight together.
> 
> I'm going to raise and contribute more money to the ACLU and environmental causes. I'm going to march. I'm going to write. I'm going to do voter registration. I'm going to search for ideas like I wanted to do here, among smart folks.I'm going to aim myself at 2018 like a laser. I'm going to listen to Warren and Sanders and whoever else picks up the mantle and do what I can to move the ball forward. I like the Twitter idea. I like the boycotts that are springing up around the country. I'll probably make a list.
> 
> Now, TO THE TOPIC, what ideas do YOU have?


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## NYC Composer

Doug! Sorry....I have CRS.

Nope, not gonna get off the horse-gonna get off the thread. Please PM me your response- thanks.


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## KEnK

Soundhound said:


> First, it's Doug, not Greg


Doug-
Looks like you were trying to say something regarding my Reaganomics post-
All that came through was "m"-
When you get a chance...


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## KEnK

Hannes-
Are you familiar w/ Nobel Prize Winning and Hated Liberal Economist Paul Krugman?
He correctly predicted the Greek economic disaster as well as the slow economic recoveries 
in countries that practiced austerity as opposed to stimulus spending.
I've been reading the man for years-
Time and time again events have proven him right.

Austerity is the wrong path out of an economic depression

k


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## Nick Batzdorf

Larry, you don't own the thread. This is my internet and I insist you stop getting in the last word.

robh, I'm not saying it's impossible for cities to go bankrupt. Obviously they can and do, and in the case of Detroit there were a lot of reasons for it, starting with really high unemployment. But even NY was on the verge of that once.

My argument is against Republicans who always want to cut spending no matter what. Our national economy is now $2 trillion below where it was projected to be before the crash, and that could have been prevented without those stupid idiots. This is basic economics that was proven three generations ago. John Maynard Keynes.

It's called countercyclical spending, and it's very simple: when times are tough and nobody else is spending - which is the definition of tough times - the government should step in with big investment. That's the time for it. It works, and doing the opposite causes unnecessary suffering.


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## Nick Batzdorf

Hannes, look what's happening in the rest of Europe. How did that austerity turn out? And you accuse me of weak mathematics! Well, I accuse of you of being an intellectual pervert. 

Germans as a people tend to have this innate pathology, I'm guessing caused by the hyperinflation during the Weimar Republic - which has absolutely *nothing* to do with what's been going on recently - that makes them impervious to the logic of countercyclical spending. It's necessary for people to suffer as punishment when the economy gets bad, otherwise Hitler will rise from the grave and start up the concentration camps again or something. Fire teachers, policemen, and firemen. That'll fix the economy right away.

Last time I pointed out that you have a Germanic morality complex you got mad and threatened to sue me for libel or something. You know, the Greeks partied while the hard-working Germans sweated, or something ridiculous like that. You don't remember the post, but I do.

Guess what? Even though things are better, there's still a worldwide capital glut - corporate profits that aren't getting reinvested in expansion, breaking the "virtuous circle." ||: Expansionary investment -> hiring -> wages -> spending -> profits -> expansionary investment -> :||

It's very simple: nobody has the money to spend, we need infrastructure investment in the US badly, interest rates are low, so this is the time to spend the damn money to create the demand to spur the economy. That increases tax revenues, boosts the economy, and has a minor side effect of preventing problems that take generations to unwind.

Now, in all fairness Germany isn't America. They do have kurzarbeit - job-sharing when times get tough, sparing a lot of pain - and they have a much better social safety net than we do. While the "populist" right is a serious danger there, especially after the recent terrorist attack in Berlin, so far those dipshits haven't taken over Germany.

Anyway, the Republicans have it wrong. And let's also not forget that the real reason they want to cut spending all the time is so they can lower taxes for rich people who would rather be selfish fux.

That's why I had nothing good to say about that cruel joke of a party even before they created the end of our republic.

Okay, that's the range: from anti-austerity to pro-Keynes to the "populist" right to social democracy to why I hate the Republican party.


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## Nick Batzdorf

...and I lost track of my original point, which was to say that Chim's rant about liberal spending causing the bad economy is total bullshit. We didn't spend enough money. The problem is fiscal austerity, not "liberal fiscal policy."

I could dig up a million charts proving that beyond a doubt, but here's an excellent article:

http://www.epi.org/publication/why-is-recovery-taking-so-long-and-who-is-to-blame/


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## Nick Batzdorf

One more: Hannes, explain to me the mechanism by which cutting back spending in the middle of a depression is going to make things better.

You can't, because there is none, but I challenge you to show me some strong mathematics.


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## robh

Nick Batzdorf said:


> One more: Hannes, explain to me the mechanism by which cutting back spending in the middle of a depression is going to make things better.
> 
> You can't, because there is none, but I challenge you to show me some strong mathematics.


What about when no one will lend you the money because you defaulted? What then is there actually to spend?


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## Soundhound

Apologies to all, I can't respond well if at all right now, I'm on an island, which is great, but the internet is crap. Might get it fixed sometime this week. If this post comes out as 'm' again, I'll make good soon!

Note: Saw on TV in a bar that Trump and Putin are bleating about nuclear arms buildup. I'm getting my snorkel mask and flippers and will stay underwater until they impeach this blithering psychopath.


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## KEnK

Soundhound said:


> if this post comes out as 'm' again, I'll make good soon!


Hah!


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## Hannes_F

Nick, you'll need to find somebody who explains it to you because I am not patient enough. These are the keywords: What are boundary conditions of mathematical models and how these work (not) if applied outside of these conditions; how mathematical models do not work if only half of them are applied; how a model that might work on a short term scale might have undesirable long term effects; how there are more principles in practise than just one and what happens if you ignore that.

This has nothing to do with my person or with Germany or whatever, it is just mathematics. If you don't know or accept mathematics you are p***ing against the wind and it will show.

Mathematics is international. In the moment you reduce this argument to me being German, as you have repeatedly done and now again, then you are drawing down the conversation to a racist level. Bravo, very nice representation of an alleged progressive liberal.


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## Baron Greuner

Now these 3 extremist liberals have predictably turned on themselves. Always happens. And it's sad to see.

The thing about being German Hannes is this in my book. I think a lot of Europe and certainly Great Britain are hoping for the day when Germany becomes Germany again. That doesn't mean anything other than shaking off this ridiculous ancient legacy that seems to have dogged the country for years.
It's much easier for the English and to a lesser extent Americans to say this, because of Anglo Saxon heritage and the obvious similarities culturally and genetically. I understand that. But this sort of forced liberalism seems to be over done.


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## chimuelo

Hannes_F said:


> Nick, you'll need to find somebody who explains it to you because I am not patient enough. These are the keywords: What are boundary conditions of mathematical models and how these work (not) if applied outside of these conditions; how mathematical models do not work if only half of them are applied; how a model that might work on a short term scale might have undesirable long term effects; how there are more principles in practise than just one and what happens if you ignore that.
> 
> This has nothing to do with my person or with Germany or whatever, it is just mathematics. If you don't know or accept mathematics you are p***ing against the wind and it will show.
> 
> Mathematics is international. In the moment you reduce this argument to me being German, as you have repeatedly done and now again, then you are drawing down the conversation to a racist level. Bravo, very nice representation of an alleged progressive liberal.



They never quote Krugman when he's wrong half the time.
He's worth listening to though, I enjoy his tirades and anti billionaire posts.
Even though he's married to a billionaire.

These guys come from the "Do as I say, not as I do" school of mathematics.

Nick, I wish to send you a Christmas present for your years of great Moderating.

I have sent out 4 boxes/coolers of Trump Steaks already to Liberal relatives.
I got one for you if you have an address via pm.


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## Nick Batzdorf

Okay, I had to block chim for now. When you get to the point where you'd rather smash yourself in the nuts with a brick than read one more his thoughtless posts, that's a good indication that it's time.

Rob:



> What about when no one will lend you the money because you defaulted? What then is there actually to spend?



A 0% concern right now. 0%.

The Republicans threatened to obstruct payments on our debt during budget battles, but that's not what you're talking about. We are not within several astronomical units of not being able to meet our obligations. States have balanced budget laws, but for the country that would be disastrous. It would mean no investment.

***

Hannes, you don't have the patience because you're objectively wrong, and that's before you get to the barely subjective parts about why deficit spending is preferable to long-term damage that takes generations to repair. It makes no sense not to invest in things like clean energy, healthcare, education, and infrastructure right now.

Keynes joked that burying money and paying people to dig it up would be expansionary. But investment in things we need badly is a no-brainer. You get back more than you spend and more if it's done right.

And of course that's the Republican party exactly: no brains. The Larrys of this world accuse me of arrogance, but I only insist I'm right when I am. Dropping money into the economy is expansionary whether or not you agree with me.


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## NYC Composer

Nick, you ignorant slut.

Love, the Larrys

(now unwatching thread, bye-ee.)


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## Guy Bacos

Guys, take a break and have a few beers.


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## Nick Batzdorf

I don't like beer all that much. 

Here's the thing: opinions based on analysis and reality are worth a lot more than ones based on the belief that they're all subjective and everyone's opinion is worthy of respect.

As I said, it doesn't matter whether or not you believe austerity works. The fact that the theory and historical reality say it never has and never will don't change that.


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## robh

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Okay, I had to block chim for now. When you get to the point where you'd rather smash yourself in the nuts with a brick than read one more his thoughtless posts, that's a good indication that it's time.
> 
> Rob:
> 
> 
> 
> A 0% concern right now. 0%.
> 
> The Republicans threatened to obstruct payments on our debt during budget battles, but that's not what you're talking about. We are not within several astronomical units of not being able to meet our obligations. States have balanced budget laws, but for the country that would be disastrous. It would mean no investment.
> 
> ***
> 
> Hannes, you don't have the patience because you're objectively wrong, and that's before you get to the barely subjective parts about why deficit spending is preferable to long-term damage that takes generations to repair. It makes no sense not to invest in things like clean energy, healthcare, education, and infrastructure right now.
> 
> Keynes joked that burying money and paying people to dig it up would be expansionary. But investment in things we need badly is a no-brainer. You get back more than you spend and more if it's done right.
> 
> And of course that's the Republican party exactly: no brains. The Larrys of this world accuse me of arrogance, but I only insist I'm right when I am. Dropping money into the economy is expansionary whether or not you agree with me.


I guess the difficulty I have, and I _think_ Hannes was alluding to, is that the part of Keynesian economics of spending during hard times is supposed to be a temporary, short term stimulus. Well, how long is "Temporary?" How long is "Short term?" Also, how do you define "hard times?" For as long as I can remember, you have been saying the government is not spending enough. Yet the government is and has been spending more than it received for a very long time. When was the last time the US government recorded a balanced/surplus budget, 2000? Maybe Keneysian economics doesn't work because nobody is really following its rules.
You say a 0% concern right now, but I wonder if Detroit, Greece, etc. once had that attitude, and they should have been more concerned.

Rob


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## Nick Batzdorf

Rob, we're dealing with a huge economy. It's not an exact rule, but the conditions for increased *investment* (not spending) are totally ripe.

There is still not enough demand in the economy, which means people don't have the money to run it at capacity. We've had a very slow recovery, we're still not at full employment, and our economy is $2 trillion below where it was projected to be before the crash.

The only way to create the missing demand to unblock the circle is public investment. Things are better but they're not where they should be. Ask all the people whose wages have stagnated and they'll confirm that.

I have to go, but think about this: deficit spending is not inherently bad. The government can print as much money as it needs (as it has been doing for the past few years) without creating any inflation while we're in the current situation.

Greece is on the Euro, Detroit is a state not the national budget.

What good does it do slowing the economy and hurting people when it's unnecessary?


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## Nick Batzdorf

^ Not my best explanation ever. I was tapping on an iPhone while waiting for something.

Anyway, the point is that Greece and Detroit don't have their own currency. They're also both in very different situations, both from one another (Detroit is a city, not a country!) and from the US as a whole.

The bigger concept I think you're missing, Rob, is what money really is. For a country with its own currency it doesn't just store value, it can also unlock it. (That's what makes it different from money in your or my bank account.)

There's more to the story, because just crediting banks' reserve accounts at the Fed isn't the same thing as spending it in the economy.


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