# Pixelpoet Trick – Legato Enhancer for Kontakt Libraries



## Pixelpoet1985 (Aug 17, 2021)

Hi all,

some already know my *legato trick* I've done for LASS. In a nutshell: The trick *elongates the legato transitions* and make them more "expressive", therefore introduces some delay.

*Other libraries the trick is working with so far (Thanks to all the testers!):*

Berlin Brass
Berlin Strings
Berlin Woodwinds
Cinestrings
Freya
LASS
NOVO
Wotan

As I had already made custom patches for a fellow composer I decided to post them here, together with the written instructions, too. They not only work with LASS, but also with other libraries (see list above) who have preserved the original sample start of the legato transitions. You can see this in the WAVE editor in Kontakt.

The attached patches have *two versions: 100% and 50%*. The first has all the sample start preserved (i.e. longer transition), the second only half of it. The modifier has a constant value at the moment, but you can adapt it to your liking (see info below*).

---

*Here is the original guide for those who want to go deeper:*


Open WRENCH mode.


Select all the legato interval samples with the SHIFT key (they are called this way, I believe it's 12 ones for up/12 ones for down intervals) and set the edit flag.


In the SOURCE area, choose SAMPLER mode instead of DFD. This allows you to change the sample start, but will load the samples into RAM, I believe. I'm not an expert if this is the correct way, sorry to say!


Click on MOD. Select CONSTANT as modulator*.


On the right side, choose SAMPLE START instead of PITCH.

_Note: Often it doesn't work and I have pitch problems when choosing SAMPLE START. So it's better to select only interval 2 up to 12 with the SHIFT key first and add interval 1 as the last one to the selected group. Don't ask me why, but it works._


Click on INVERT <> so that it's highlighted in yellow. Now you can move the slider to the right. The more to the right, the more of the transition is heard / the longer the transition is. Also, this means: the more to the left the sample start is pushed in the WAVE EDITOR.


* OPTIONAL: In step 4 you can choose e.g. VELOCITY instead of CONSTANT as modulator, so that each time you hit a key, you get a different transition length. The slider defines the maximum value. If you click on MODULATION SHAPER next to INVERT you can define a response curve, too.


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## muziksculp (Aug 17, 2021)

@Pixelpoet1985 ,

Thanks for making this fresh post for your LASS magical legato edit instructions. 

I wasn't able to find this info. , every time I searched the forum, I kept getting getting info. about MSS.

This will be very helpful for many LASS users. 

Looking forward to *LASS 3*  

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Batrawi (Nov 6, 2021)

How come did I not see this thread before? I was actually just about to start a similar thread but thought that I should first search the forum just in case and... there it is 🙂!

Anyhow, since the PixP-trick (have we settled on an acronym yet?) is actually more of a general trick that should work with other kontakt libraries that have the full legato transitions preserved under the hood as explained in the OP, I was wondering what libraries (other than LASS 2) have the members here applied this trick on and acheived some interesting/successful results? and maybe they can contribute with some examples too? (@Pixelpoet1985 , maybe would also be a good idea if you can update the OP with a "works with" list accordingly, that way this thread will serve a wider benefit to the community)

For me now, I'm really interested to know if the trick can also work with:
-CS2 (very possible? being made by Alex, the same developer for CSS- King of long legatos  )
-NI SSSE (also very possible, being made by Audiobro who also made LASS)
-Berlin Strings (?)

From my side, I have tried the trick with 8Dio's Intimate Studio Strings and surprisingly, while the library already offers a legato offset knob on the GUI, I still got an even longer/more lyrical transition! (maybe I can post an example later). In the case of this library though, I had to select the post-legato-sustain samples too in order for the trick to work. This might be the case for other libraries as well, so maybe a */note can be added to step#2 above in that regard.

Finally, I'm honestly not sure if my suggesting could be derailing to this thread, even though I can't think of a better place to host this info especially that it will be in the presence of the trick inventor😉 so the decision is ultimately to @Pixelpoet1985 whether he wishes this thread to move in this direction or not


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## Noeticus (Nov 6, 2021)

LASS 3 is soon to be released.


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## Casiquire (Nov 6, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> How come did I not see this thread before? I was actually just about to start a similar thread but thought that I should first search the forum just in case and... there it is 🙂!
> 
> Anyhow, since the PixP-trick (have we settled on an acronym yet?) is actually more of a general trick that should work with other kontakt libraries that have the full legato transitions preserved under the hood as explained in the OP, I was wondering what libraries (other than LASS 2) have the members here applied this trick on and acheived some interesting/successful results? and maybe they can contribute with some examples too? (@Pixelpoet1985 , maybe would also be a good idea if you can update the OP with a "works with" list accordingly, that way this thread will serve a wider benefit to the community)
> 
> ...


I think it's a useful conversation, but of course we'll respect the OP's wishes. I haven't tried it on anything else but that would be amazing if it works on WoFrey


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## Batrawi (Nov 7, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> WoFrey


Wotan/Freya you mean? I don't have any choir libraries, but I'd be surprised if PixP would generally work well with choirs. Choirs sampling is very tricky and it's very easy for our ears to spot the "not-so-human-perfection" in the legato transitions. So elongating those transitions even further would increase their weirdness I assume. But that's just me speaking theoratically


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## Pixelpoet1985 (Nov 7, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> How come did I not see this thread before? I was actually just about to start a similar thread but thought that I should first search the forum just in case and... there it is 🙂!
> 
> Anyhow, since the PixP-trick (have we settled on an acronym yet?) is actually more of a general trick that should work with other kontakt libraries that have the full legato transitions preserved under the hood as explained in the OP, I was wondering what libraries (other than LASS 2) have the members here applied this trick on and acheived some interesting/successful results? and maybe they can contribute with some examples too? (@Pixelpoet1985 , maybe would also be a good idea if you can update the OP with a "works with" list accordingly, that way this thread will serve a wider benefit to the community)
> 
> ...


Thanks! Of course, we can add a library list. I have only tried LASS. As I have very few Kontakt libraries, I need your support.

On the other hand, I don‘t know if the trick needs alterations depending on the libraries. Maybe we should open another thread for this. Don‘t know…


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## Vladimir Bulaev (Nov 7, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> -Berlin Strings (?)


My attempts with the Berlin Strings were unsuccessful. However, I believe that the Berlin Strings may have a good legato. Porting this library to StaffPad is an obvious proof that these samples have good legato transitions, unlike the NI version. The question lies in their competent programming and scripting, and I'm afraid it may not be available to mere mortals like us. Although I'm not giving up hope.


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## Batrawi (Nov 7, 2021)

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> My attempts with the Berlin Strings were unsuccessful. However, I believe that the Berlin Strings may have a good legato. Porting this library to StaffPad is an obvious proof that these samples have good legato transitions, unlike the NI version. The question lies in their competent programming and scripting, and I'm afraid it may not be available to mere mortals like us. Although I'm not giving up hope.


Note that some libraries require that you select BOTH 1)the legato samples + 2)the post-legato-sustain samples in the group editor when applying the PixP-trick, otherwise it will not work properly. This is actually how my attempt with MSS was successful (before the the official legato update) as well as with 8dio's ISS! So maybe Berlin can successfully respond to the trick the same way as those libraries.


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## Casiquire (Nov 7, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> Note that some libraries require that you select BOTH 1)the legato samples + 2)the post-legato-sustain samples in the group editor when applying the PixP-trick, otherwise it will not work properly. This is actually how my attempt with MSS was successful (before the the official legato update) as well as with 8dio's ISS! So maybe Berlin can successfully respond to the trick the same way as those libraries.


Ah good call!


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## Vladimir Bulaev (Nov 7, 2021)

It worked! I've been looking for the right bands for a long time, because in the Berlin Strings they are all named the same. My patience and perseverance served me and I was rewarded. If you choose the right groups and use this trick on them, then literally magic happens. And so, in the Berlin Strings, this Pixelpoet Trick works. So far I've only tried on cellos for one microphone position.


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## muziksculp (Nov 7, 2021)

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> It worked! I've been looking for the right bands for a long time, because in the Berlin Strings they are all named the same. My patience and perseverance served me and I was rewarded. If you choose the right groups and use this trick on them, then literally magic happens. And so, in the Berlin Strings, this Pixelpoet Trick works. So far I've only tried on cellos for one microphone position.


Cool ! Could you specify the name of the samples that need to be selected for this to work.

Thanks.


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## Vladimir Bulaev (Nov 7, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Cool ! Could you specify the name of the samples that need to be selected for this to work.
> 
> Thanks.


Now I went into the first violins and here everything turned out to be much more structured with the names, unlike the cellos. See these "LEG SLURR+ TREE" и "LEG SLURR- TREE" these groups become highlighted during legato transitions for about one second. Apply this trick to these groups. Accordingly, for other microphone positions and legato style (Slurred, Agile, Fast), this trick will also be an improvement on my hearing. But "Agile" sounds less natural to me personally, so I prefer to disable it and not use it at all.





For Celli and Violas, we have to recognize them because legato is not signed in groups. This is easy to do since the groups are highlighted in yellow for 1 second when legato starts the interval up or down.


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## Vladimir Bulaev (Nov 7, 2021)

Another important point. For the group that is highlighted in yellow during the release of the note, do not touch. This group can easily be confused with legate ones, since it also glows for one second during intervals.


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## muziksculp (Nov 7, 2021)

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> Now I went into the first violins and here everything turned out to be much more structured with the names, unlike the cellos. See these "LEG SLURR+ TREE" и "LEG SLURR- TREE" these groups become highlighted during legato transitions for about one second. Apply this trick to these groups. Accordingly, for other microphone positions and legato style (Slurred, Agile, Fast), this trick will also be an improvement on my hearing. But "Agile" sounds less natural to me personally, so I prefer to disable it and not use it at all.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi @Vladimir Bulaev ,

THANKS 

I think the big question about this is, has it made a big difference ? is it worth dealing with this ?

I'm really looking forward to use Berlin Strings in SINE, and most likely won't bother with the Kontakt version, so I'm a bit on the fence about dealing with this. But, I appreciate your feedback, and I might just give it a try with the Violins when I have some time to tinker around with it.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Vladimir Bulaev (Nov 7, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @Vladimir Bulaev ,
> 
> THANKS
> 
> ...


I'm not a master of convincing as you say, but you know, I can't be sure that the developers for their newly-made engine will include this function in the Sine player. The ability to change the speed of intervals for legato, is there in their other libraries, is it available? And will you go under the hood of the sine player, so that if something is fixed? I really hope the developers will include it.
As for whether it's worth it. Personally, I think it's definitely an important thing for me. Legato before that was cut, broken in the truest sense of the word. This trick, I would call it a cure for the disease. And this disease hid the library's potential. He can be said to correct one of the main shortcomings (the weakness of legato) and I am sure that now the Berlin strings will sing. 
I'm doing this trick 100%


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## muziksculp (Nov 7, 2021)

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> I'm not a master of convincing as you say, but you know, I can't be sure that the developers for their newly-made engine will include this function in the Sine player. The ability to change the speed of intervals for legato, is there in their other libraries, is it available? And will you go under the hood of the sine player, so that if something is fixed? I really hope the developers will include it.
> As for whether it's worth it. Personally, I think it's definitely an important thing for me. Legato before that was cut, broken in the truest sense of the word. This trick, I would call it a cure for the disease. And this disease hid the library's potential. He can be said to correct one of the main shortcomings (the weakness of legato) and I am sure that now the Berlin strings will sing.
> I'm doing this trick 100%


Thanks for the additional feedback. 

I would love to hear the Berlin Strings after your legato treatment to improve them. I can compare them to my current un-treated version. Maybe a midi file can get us to compare the difference. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Casiquire (Nov 7, 2021)

Breaking news, it works on Wo/Frey and it's heaven


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## Casiquire (Nov 7, 2021)

The trick makes the transitions more of a slur and a little smoother, which i find to be much more realistic, and this was already my favorite choir. This was surprisingly quick noodling, credit to Ola Gjeilo. 

View attachment Ola Gjeilo - The Rose.mp3


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## Vladimir Bulaev (Nov 9, 2021)

The trick also helps "Berlin Woodwinds Revive" well. But unfortunately not all musical instruments. For example, I noticed that flute 1 and oboe 1 do not react in the best way. Apparently there is initially bad with legato because at intervals you can hear the overlapping of notes on each other and this trick only aggravates the situation. Other flutes, english horn, clarinets, bassoons, work amazingly. There is an ability to make not only slow but also fast enough execution expressive and truly natural. It just seems to me that the developers are hiding something from us, leaving their default products worse than they actually should be? I'm just shocked by all this.


Made a video tutorial on how to easily and quickly do this trick. I showed it on the flute, but the same can be done with other instruments and libraries. The main thing is to find the right groups with legato. At 1:20 I go under the hood and...


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## Casiquire (Nov 9, 2021)

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> The trick also helps "Berlin Woodwinds Revive" well. But unfortunately not all musical instruments. For example, I noticed that flute 1 and oboe 1 do not react in the best way. Apparently there is initially bad with legato because at intervals you can hear the overlapping of notes on each other and this trick only aggravates the situation. Other flutes, english horn, clarinets, bassoons, work amazingly. There is an ability to make not only slow but also fast enough execution expressive and truly natural. It just seems to me that the developers are hiding something from us, leaving their default products worse than they actually should be? I'm just shocked by all this.



I don't think they're intentionally trying to make it sound bad. I imagine they clip their legatos with a little bit of wiggle room in editing, then they bring it to Kontakt and finesse it there, probably thinking that shortening the transition makes it more playable. Total speculation but it makes sense


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## Batrawi (Nov 9, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> probably thinking that shortening the transition makes it more playable.


I think this is exactly what it is. An old school way of thinking which was common amongst developer thinking "this is eventually a virtual instrument, so first priority, it must respond well to keyboardists" until Allex Wallbank came in proudly to promote otherwise that "virtual instruments need to react as real instruments in order to simply sound like real ones" and while he still left the option for keyboardist to play the old "playable" way, they came to appreciate how a bit of a delay can be a little sacrifice for the sake of more realism. I think this is also why new developers are now starting to provide this (legato speed control) as a standard industry feature in their products, and it's a bit of shame imo that major lead companies in the industry (like OT, SF, EW) haven't yet realised how such feature is now becoming more and more crucial for serious composers that it MUST be available as a standard control on the front end of their bespoke players/GUI.


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## Batrawi (Nov 9, 2021)

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> The trick also helps "Berlin Woodwinds Revive" well. But unfortunately not all musical instruments. For example, I noticed that flute 1 and oboe 1 do not react in the best way. Apparently there is initially bad with legato because at intervals you can hear the overlapping of notes on each other and this trick only aggravates the situation. Other flutes, english horn, clarinets, bassoons, work amazingly. There is an ability to make not only slow but also fast enough execution expressive and truly natural. It just seems to me that the developers are hiding something from us, leaving their default products worse than they actually should be? I'm just shocked by all this.
> 
> 
> Made a video tutorial on how to easily and quickly do this trick. I showed it on the flute, but the same can be done with other instruments and libraries. The main thing is to find the right groups with legato. At 1:20 I go under the hood and...



This sounds beautiful Vladimir! basically as if its the CSW everyone was waiting for was already there, with the pristine Teldex sound, but burried miserably by old school scripting... Have you considered sending this over to OT? I mean this was basically the same way we grabbed Audiobro's attention to the importance of having full control over the full legato transition and they were very responsive to have that implemented in their products. So maybe if hopefully your videos collected some good amount of people voices showing appreciation to this new legato result, it would be a good time to share this with OT.


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## Casiquire (Nov 9, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> I think this is exactly what it is. An old school way of thinking which was common amongst developer thinking "this is eventually a virtual instrument, so first priority, it must respond well to keyboardists" until Allex Wallbank came in proudly to promote otherwise that "virtual instruments need to react as real instruments in order to simply sound like real ones" and while he still left the option for keyboardist to play the old "playable" way, they came to appreciate how a bit of a delay can be a little sacrifice for the sake of more realism. I think this is also why new developers are now starting to provide this (legato speed control) as a standard industry feature in their products, and it's a bit of shame imo that major lead companies in the industry (like OT, SF, EW) haven't yet realised how such feature is now becoming more and more crucial for serious composers that it MUST be available as a standard control on the front end of their bespoke players/GUI.


While i partially agree, OT's transitions are about the same ballpark in length as Performance Samples, and that could be why I'm such a fan of them. I wish they'd provide a real Lookahead feature though, so everything can line up on the grid


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## Batrawi (Nov 9, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> OT's transitions are about the same ballpark in length as Performance Samples


I don't have any of their libraries, but from Vladimir's video, their standard legato vs the PixP one or Vista's (which I have), I hear a night and day difference in the transitions lengths. Their standard legato sounds very quick and smeared with hall reverberation coming from adjacent sustains


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## muziksculp (Nov 9, 2021)

Let's hope that the SINE version of their Woodwinds have the type of Legato the Pixelpoet trick offers.

I agree, with @Batrawi, the videos posted by @Vladimir Bulaev comparing the before, and after Pixelpoet treatment is day, and night difference, in terms of legato quality.


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## Snarf (Nov 10, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Breaking news, it works on Wo/Frey and it's heaven


You can also change the offsets of the worldbuilder sus/stac patches under the hood in this library. The default attacks sound very truncated, so it's very useful!


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## Vladimir Bulaev (Nov 11, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> This sounds beautiful Vladimir! basically as if its the CSW everyone was waiting for was already there, with the pristine Teldex sound, but burried miserably by old school scripting... Have you considered sending this over to OT?


Well, let's look at the reaction. In general, I think they know their business better, don't they? I'm just a mere mortal. And how many people are in favor of libraries being realistic and not agile for keyboard players? Can I create a survey? By the way, I think you can rename the theme, since not only LASS reacts to the trick. 

Here is a quick demonstration of Berlin Strings, Berlin Strings+Pixelpoet Trick versus the king of legato CSS. I apologize for the music, it was written in a hurry in a short time. Soon I will try to record a better and more musically developed demonstration. I hope.


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## Batrawi (Nov 11, 2021)

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> In general, I think they know their business better, don't they?


Yes, they know their business better "in general"! But believe me, some devs are just travelling in bullet trains that they get blinded from small details that make big differences, thats why users feedbacks and actively engaging with users in forums like this is very important. (again MSS launch vs update is a perfect example)



Vladimir Bulaev said:


> And how many people are in favor of libraries being realistic and not agile for keyboard players?


I personally wonder how such question can be relevant anymore with today's tech (such as look ahead) or when the control can simply be made accessible for both camps to adjust to their own taste?!! The real question should be, how many people are in favor of a "more fake" result coming out of the speakers vs a "less fake" one? I hope we can agree the answer is '0'....



Vladimir Bulaev said:


> I think you can rename the theme, since not only LASS reacts to the trick.


That's my opinion too, but as I mentioned earlier that's subject to @Pixelpoet1985 decision. I'd be happy to create separate thread if he wishes to keep this thread exclusively for LASS (even though it may become redundant very soon when LASS 3 comes out 😜)




Vladimir Bulaev said:


> Here is a quick demonstration of Berlin Strings, Berlin Strings+Pixelpoet Trick versus the king of legato CSS.


Lovely music Vladimir (not sure why u apologise- really!😄) and again a good example of Berlin's legato potential! it now sounds very expressive as the CSS' legato to my ears even though not as consistent or 'uniform' (but that requires a devs work to accomplish not your or the trick's fault).

Finally, I think inviting @Sovereign (legato police) and maybe having his views on the shared comparisons would bring some value to the discussion


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## Pixelpoet1985 (Nov 11, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> That's my opinion too, but as I mentioned earlier that's subject to @Pixelpoet1985 decision. I'd be happy to create separate thread if he wishes to keep this thread exclusively for LASS (even though it may become redundant very soon when LASS 3 comes out 😜)


Let‘s go! Any name suggestions / wishes? I will change the thread title.


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## Batrawi (Nov 11, 2021)

Maybe: 

_Pixelpoet Trick -(potential) legato enhancer for kontakt libraries_


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## Sovereign (Nov 12, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> Lovely music Vladimir (not sure why u apologise- really!😄) and again a good example of Berlin's legato potential! it now sounds very expressive as the CSS' legato to my ears even though not as consistent or 'uniform' (but that requires a devs work to accomplish not your or the trick's fault).
> 
> Finally, I think inviting @Sovereign (legato police) and maybe having his views on the shared comparisons would bring some value to the discussion


What can I say other than that the improved versions sound absolutely great and are a marked improvement over the default scripting/editing. I'm pretty sure this trick can be fine-tuned for each individual library (assuming the longer intervals are available). I still cannot get my heard wrapped around the fact that these issues were not noticed by OT and it unfortunately cements my opinion that OT has lackluster scripting in general. Such a waste of good recordings. And in Sine you don't get any opportunity to fix this yourself, I abhor closed systems.


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## Mr Greg G (Nov 12, 2021)

What this trick does and why it makes the legato sound good is because it eliminates the leftover of the previous note. This leftover note makes the legato sound unrealistic because it would be impossible in real life to hear it.

“Legato length” does not exist except in Portamento or Glissando. The note is either on or off. That’s it. But once it’s on, the previous note should be off Instantly. There’s no sense of length.


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## Casiquire (Nov 12, 2021)

Mr Pringles said:


> What this trick does and why it makes the legato sound good is because it eliminates the leftover of the previous note. This leftover note makes the legato sound unrealistic because it would be impossible in real life to hear it.
> 
> “Legato length” does not exist except in Portamento or Glissando. The note is either on or off. That’s it. But once it’s on, the previous note should be off Instantly. There’s no sense of length.


I think it's a little bit more than that. I think you're right that there's less overlap, but i also think it includes a little bit more of the sound before the player transitions, which also helps the realism because actual transitions aren't instant.

People, this trick is fantastic. I always thought the second bassoon in BWW was an obvious weak point of the library with its weird performance, but now it sounds great. Has anyone had a chance to experiment with the sustain notes as well, or even shorts? I'm imagining that if you apply the trick to sustained notes, you'll get a little more of the note onset (which would help realism) and it might also have the effect of pushing note onset back by the same amount as the legato, so everything can snap to the grid with one uniform negative delay amount.

As far as shorts, need i say more? Keeping some pre-transient is often desirable


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## Evans (Nov 12, 2021)

In theory, could we post our updated patches that take well to the trick, similar to what Sarah has done with the massive "Adachi" overhaul? I'm not sure where the line is drawn between sharing Instrument files versus actual Sample folder content, if that varies per developer, etc.


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## Batrawi (Nov 12, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Has anyone had a chance to experiment with the sustain notes as well, or even shorts? I'm imagining that if you apply the trick to sustained notes, you'll get a little more of the note onset (which would help realism) and it might also have the effect of pushing note onset back by the same amount as the legato, so everything can snap


yes I tried the trick on both sustains and shorts (don't recall which libraries) and depending on the presereved sample length the trick works as you described. But I woudln't put high hopes on the trick to align timing between sustain onset and legato etc.... cause afterall the trick is basically giving you access to the developer's hidden mess!


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## Casiquire (Nov 12, 2021)

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> The trick also helps "Berlin Woodwinds Revive" well. But unfortunately not all musical instruments. For example, I noticed that flute 1 and oboe 1 do not react in the best way. Apparently there is initially bad with legato because at intervals you can hear the overlapping of notes on each other and this trick only aggravates the situation. Other flutes, english horn, clarinets, bassoons, work amazingly. There is an ability to make not only slow but also fast enough execution expressive and truly natural. It just seems to me that the developers are hiding something from us, leaving their default products worse than they actually should be? I'm just shocked by all this.
> 
> 
> Made a video tutorial on how to easily and quickly do this trick. I showed it on the flute, but the same can be done with other instruments and libraries. The main thing is to find the right groups with legato. At 1:20 I go under the hood and...




I'm not sure if this is related to your issues with certain instruments, but i noticed that some of them have all their legato patches in one chunk, but others have then split up in a few places. Flute 1 for example has one group all the way at the top of the groups, then a chunk of them toward the middle, then another chunk at the bottom. I didn't notice that some patches had legato groups all the way at the top and bottom and they sounded off until i realized that. Still experimenting here though 



Batrawi said:


> yes I tried the trick on both sustains and shorts (don't recall which libraries) and depending on the presereved sample length the trick works as you described. But I woudln't put high hopes on the trick to align timing between sustain onset and legato etc.... cause afterall the trick is basically giving you access to the developer's hidden mess!


Good call. The audio we're accessing might not be polished and pretty


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## Mr Greg G (Nov 12, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> actual transitions aren't instant


I can definitely assure you they are instant. As a cello player  Slurred / legato transition length doesn't exist except in Portamentos or glissandos. Either the note is On or Off.


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## Casiquire (Nov 12, 2021)

Mr Pringles said:


> I can definitely assure you they are instant. As a cello player  Slurred / legato transition length doesn't exist except in Portamentos or glissandos. Either the note is On or Off.


They are not, though. Players prepare for the next note before transitioning. It affects vibrato and volume in really small ways. For a long time that's how i used to be able to tell i was listening to samples; live players reduce vibrato right before a new note because their fingers need to move


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## Evans (Nov 12, 2021)

"Instantly" is a theoretical concept that isn't useful in practical applications. There's no such thing as an "instant transition" no matter how good you are.


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## Zanshin (Nov 12, 2021)

I would also say that even if individual players transition instantly, a group of players would transition at different moments.


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## Mr Greg G (Nov 12, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> They are not, though


Yet they are. 
But you're right, you can often hear variations in the vibrato. And this is because of the player's interpretation, nothing else. You can have a steady heavy vibrato while playing a legato. The volume is only affected by a bow change or different bow pressure. You can hear slight portamentos transitions when the player is repositioning his/her hand. I've never heard of legato length in my 35y + of playing the cello, only in these forums by non players.


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## Batrawi (Nov 12, 2021)

Mr Pringles said:


> I can definitely assure you they are instant. As a cello player  Slurred / legato transition length doesn't exist except in Portamentos or glissandos. Either the note is On or Off.


That's interesting to kow. I also though fingered/slurred legato had some length (in ms of course) but I'll trust your words as a cellist. which also makes sense. so now if I understand correctly, the extra portion of the transision that we're trying to unlock (with the pixelpoet trick) is the moment that happens right *before* the transition (which includes finger pressure /note dampening and maybe vibrato fade out etc... all that kind of chaos) all of which don't happen instantly, no?


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## aka70 (Nov 12, 2021)

If you play a string instrument you can very easily understand that "legato" it's not as complicated as the virtual thing. Nothing really happens until your finger touches the string and when that happens it's very instant and it doesn't matter if you prepare it or not for the "transition". The attack, vibrato has nothing to do with legato, but with the bow intensity and how you move your bow.


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## Mr Greg G (Nov 12, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> I also though fingered/slurred legato had some length (in ms of course) but I'll trust your words as a cellist. which also makes sense. so now if I understand correctly, the extra portion of the transision that we're trying to unlock (with the pixelpoet trick) is the moment that happens right *before* the transition (which includes finger pressure /note dampening and maybe vibrato fade out etc... all that kind of chaos) all of which don't happen instantly, no?


Well, sure there must be some transition in ms (we're not robots) but we're not talking about 200ms transitions, it's way more instant in a humanly perceptible way. Don't forget you're talking about sample recordings programmed into legatos. So this trick is refining the way the library programmed its legatos. In the original legato you could hear the previous note ringing while playing the following note which is impossible and makes it sound fake. With this trick, since some delay is implemented, you give the time to the previous note to finish ringing naturally before hitting the next note. And this sounds wayyyy more real.


aka70 said:


> If you play a string instrument you can very easily understand that "legato" it's not as complicated as the virtual thing. Nothing really happens until your finger touches the string and when that happens it's very instant and it doesn't matter if you prepare it or not for the "transition". The attack, vibrato has nothing to do with legato, but with the bow intensity and how you move your bow.


Exactly. Attack and vibrato are independent from the legato. Same thing with hand repositioning which can introduce a slight glissando but definitely audible. This is part of the player interpretation, not the legato itself. He/she can even accentuate this hand repositioning glide for effect.


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## Sarah Mancuso (Nov 12, 2021)

When people talk about the length of a legato transition, it's the length of the recording being played. Stitching samples together is not the same as having a player performing in front of you, and moving the stitch points further away from the actual transition (which is indeed very fast) generally gives a more believable result.


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## Pixelpoet1985 (Nov 13, 2021)

Mr Pringles said:


> I can definitely assure you they are instant. As a cello player
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is what I've been talking about in several threads, though I'm not a string player, just an observer. I don't understand all the fuss about legato lengths, because, as you say, there aren't any. This "delay" people are referring to is the summary of players transition at different times and preparing for the note. Do you want an even longer transition? Use portamento or a sul legato (on the string, position change).

---
And this is exactly why I love VSL so much (sorry for bring it in, I don't want to re-start the legato discussion again). No delay, one legato length (and a separate faster legato patch). The PROBLEM people have with VSL's legato is absolutely justified, because it's too precise. Their solo instruments are awesome. But they don't consider the human element / delay of each player when recording ensembles. This has always been an issue with their ensembles, because they react as a solo instrument (i.e. every player transition at the same time). At least, that's my impression. Do you understand what I mean? Of course, there has to be some tiny bit of humanization, because the players aren't robots. But it's way too precise. And not only the transitions, also the vibrato.

Workaround for VSL's ensemble libraries is to lengthen the transitions. The Pixelpoet trick doesn't work here, because there is no sample start offset with VSL, because 1) the recordings don't have anything preserved, and 2) it isn't really needed. The older VI PRO is capable of stretching, and VSL has made several presets for all their libraries. Those are good, but not as good as their dimension series. I don't really understand, why VSL hasn't figured this out with the new Synchron recordings? Every other developer does it right, at least, they consider the humanization, but they all fail with fast legato. VSL just need this tiny bit of human element...

The only VSL libraries which got this right is the dimension series (brass, strings). These are the best ensemble libraries in their catalogue. Because the "short" legato of each individual player gets "delayed" naturally when you activate humanization in their sample player. And this results into the legato sound everyone wants.

*Again, please don't re-start the legato discussion. I only wanted to point out my observations derived from thorough experimenting as a non-string-player. I had to name VSL, because I needed something to illustrate my thoughts. May they be right or wrong.*


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## Pixelpoet1985 (Nov 13, 2021)

By the way, I really appreciate the interest in my trick! Very happy to help you. Funny, because I don't really use Kontakt libraries, it was just a tiny test.


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## Casiquire (Nov 13, 2021)

I'm not looking for a longer transition, I'm looking for the natural breath of the player's expression which is what's lost in VSL's short snipping


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## Pixelpoet1985 (Nov 13, 2021)

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> The trick also helps "Berlin Woodwinds Revive" well. But unfortunately not all musical instruments. For example, I noticed that flute 1 and oboe 1 do not react in the best way. Apparently there is initially bad with legato because at intervals you can hear the overlapping of notes on each other and this trick only aggravates the situation. Other flutes, english horn, clarinets, bassoons, work amazingly. There is an ability to make not only slow but also fast enough execution expressive and truly natural. It just seems to me that the developers are hiding something from us, leaving their default products worse than they actually should be? I'm just shocked by all this.
> 
> 
> Made a video tutorial on how to easily and quickly do this trick. I showed it on the flute, but the same can be done with other instruments and libraries. The main thing is to find the right groups with legato. At 1:20 I go under the hood and...



I've always been interested in the Berlin Series. Really surprised by the results here. Pity that we won't be able to make changes with the SINE player. At least, I don't expect. Who knows...


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## Casiquire (Nov 13, 2021)

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> I've always been interested in the Berlin Series. Really surprised by the results here. Pity that we won't be able to make changes with the SINE player. At least, I don't expect. Who knows...


I'm even more determined to get the strings before they go SINE after playing with the transitions of their winds and brass. It's quite a difference


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## Pixelpoet1985 (Nov 13, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I'm not looking for a longer transition, I'm looking for the natural breath of the player's expression which is what's lost in VSL's short snipping


I know, I should have better not mentioned VSL again.


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## Zanshin (Nov 13, 2021)

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> And this is exactly why I love VSL so much


Shhh, don't tell anyone, but I love VSL too


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## Jrides (Nov 14, 2021)

I really need to bookmark this thread. Some useful information here. Thanks everyone!


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## lettucehat (Nov 14, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I'm even more determined to get the strings before they go SINE after playing with the transitions of their winds and brass. It's quite a difference


Or maybe Orchestral Tools have seen this thread and you have nothing to worry about!


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## Casiquire (Nov 14, 2021)

lettucehat said:


> Or maybe Orchestral Tools have seen this thread and you have nothing to worry about!


I do hope you're right, but if you are, it'll be 2050 lol they don't operate on human time scales! But i also hope devs keep moving in the delay direction


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## Sarah Mancuso (Nov 14, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I do hope you're right, but if you are, it'll be 2050 lol they don't operate on human time scales! But i also hope devs keep moving in the delay direction


Misread instructions, delayed legato transition until 2050


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## Vladimir Bulaev (Nov 14, 2021)

lettucehat said:


> Or maybe Orchestral Tools have seen this thread and you have nothing to worry about!


I'm not sure about that. This topic may get lost and it is not a fact that the gods will deem it necessary to delve into it. We need to get in touch with OT in a cohesive way.


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## lettucehat (Nov 14, 2021)

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> I'm not sure about that. This topic may get lost and it is not a fact that the gods will deem it necessary to delve into it. We need to get in touch with OT in a cohesive way.


Mostly joking - I mean, I would hope that they already see how often and how well longer legato transitions are being implemented in other libraries, and _that_ would be enough for a change in scripting approach for SINE. But seeing this thread wouldn't hurt. I mean I really would love to hear more Berlin Strings with this trick, it's pretty mindblowing.


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## dts_marin (Nov 14, 2021)

The real conspiracy is that Alex has locked up his libraries to prevent us from applying the PixelPoet trick to them. PixelPoet is Alex from the future warning us about the dangers of having such power.


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## constaneum (Nov 14, 2021)

Berlin Strings sound really good actually. it's something which i may consider grabbing. but with TSS, everything on holds now.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Nov 14, 2021)

It's a general issue with almost all libraries out there.
OFFSET.
It's an issue with shorts, legatos... everything. 
With shorts the actual subtle brushy initial build to the attack as the players place their bow on the strings and start engaging it is almost always removed. Sometimes while editing the samples, sometimes in Kontakt, in which case it can sometimes be reversed, but that can lead to timing issues. 

Probably usually for playability, so people don't complain about the delay. I wouldn't be surprised of some of the internal people or developers themselves have different versions with the delay. 
Or the more unfortunate possibility - many may not hear it or realize the importance. 

It's just the same thing with legatos, where the start time of the interval is often unmusically immediate.
Many thanks for that thread! Never tried "fixing" the start time of legatos, looking forward to getting into that.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Nov 14, 2021)

Tip - you can use "expert" mode to make selecting the groups easier. You can also type search terms.


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## Chris Richter (Nov 14, 2021)

Thank you very much for sharing this!


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## djrustycans (Nov 15, 2021)

DarkestShadow said:


> Tip - you can use "expert" mode to make selecting the groups easier. You can also type search terms.


Oh my word!! Never realised this. Thanks. :emoji_astonished:


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## Lionel Schmitt (Nov 15, 2021)

the things you discover when digging in... shocking. Completely useless intervals that sound like ripped from another library - no relation to the sustain sonically, intervals that don't trigger on many notes, only intervals in one direction (downwards in this case) used for bother directions (in other words - downwards used for down and upwards) in such a quiet and short way that it's barely audible as a legato...
I have already been very sinister about the developer sphere but this is giving me a whole different perspective on the chaos and lazyness.
Also the fact that I several managed to turn previously close to useless legato into rather lovely legato within 10 minutes as a non Kontakt scripter and customer... after paying "experts" good money to provide me with a product with that basic stuff already supposed to be nailed...
Well, rant over. Crazy stuff.


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## djrustycans (Nov 15, 2021)

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> Now I went into the first violins and here everything turned out to be much more structured with the names, unlike the cellos. See these "LEG SLURR+ TREE" и "LEG SLURR- TREE" these groups become highlighted during legato transitions for about one second. Apply this trick to these groups. Accordingly, for other microphone positions and legato style (Slurred, Agile, Fast), this trick will also be an improvement on my hearing. But "Agile" sounds less natural to me personally, so I prefer to disable it and not use it at all.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great stuff. Are you running a purge script first - I can't change to sampler mode without doing this!


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## axb312 (Nov 15, 2021)

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> The trick also helps "Berlin Woodwinds Revive" well. But unfortunately not all musical instruments. For example, I noticed that flute 1 and oboe 1 do not react in the best way. Apparently there is initially bad with legato because at intervals you can hear the overlapping of notes on each other and this trick only aggravates the situation. Other flutes, english horn, clarinets, bassoons, work amazingly. There is an ability to make not only slow but also fast enough execution expressive and truly natural. It just seems to me that the developers are hiding something from us, leaving their default products worse than they actually should be? I'm just shocked by all this.
> 
> 
> Made a video tutorial on how to easily and quickly do this trick. I showed it on the flute, but the same can be done with other instruments and libraries. The main thing is to find the right groups with legato. At 1:20 I go under the hood and...



Why do the pixel poet versions in this sound a little drier to me?


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## Obi-Wan Spaghetti (Nov 15, 2021)

axb312 said:


> Why do the pixel poet versions in this sound a little drier to me?


A little?... He probably just did the close mic or something.


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## lettucehat (Nov 15, 2021)

Yes the warning about purged samples is stopping me from trying this in most libraries.


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## Batrawi (Nov 15, 2021)

axb312 said:


> Why do the pixel poet versions in this sound a little drier to me?





Mr Pringles said:


> What this trick does and why it makes the legato sound good is because it eliminates the leftover of the previous note. This leftover note makes the legato sound unrealistic because it would be impossible in real life to hear it.


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## axb312 (Nov 15, 2021)

Makes sense.

Tried this with a library. Timing wise, it doesn't seem to need any ms offset for notes to begin on time? Or am I just not hearing things correctly?

Thank you btw @Pixelpoet1985 and @Vladimir Bulaev ...


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## Batrawi (Nov 15, 2021)

lettucehat said:


> Yes the warning about purged samples is stopping me from trying this in most libraries.



Be aware of the first step below:

Here is an illustrated step-by-step of how to apply the Pixepoet trick in LASS:
1-in Group Editor select the groups and ONLY those groups that contain legato transitions (make sure to deselect everything else)
2-in Source, select "sampler"
3-in Mod, select "constant", "invert" and "sample start"
4-move slider all the way to the right for full legato transition (the lesser to the right, the shorter the legato transition)
LASS.png


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## Sarah Mancuso (Nov 15, 2021)

It should be noted that by doing this, you're just cutting off the _end _of the legato transition instead, unless you're also changing the timing on the transition crossfades (which may be in wrench-view-accessible envelopes or may be hidden in the script itself, or possibly some of both).


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## Vladimir Bulaev (Nov 15, 2021)

lettucehat said:


> Yes the warning about purged samples is stopping me from trying this in most libraries.


Do not select groups whose microphones are disabled. If the other microphones are not loaded, it will be impossible to apply this trick to their groups. Or it is better to turn on all available microphones, but you should choose the right groups, make sure of this.


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## Casiquire (Nov 15, 2021)

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> Do not select groups whose microphones are disabled. If the other microphones are not loaded, it will be impossible to apply this trick to their groups. Or it is better to turn on all available microphones, but you should choose the right groups, make sure of this.


Exactly. I turn on all the mics, do the trick, disable the mics i don't want, and save the patch.


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## Batrawi (Nov 15, 2021)

Sarah Mancuso said:


> It should be noted that by doing this, you're just cutting off the _end _of the legato transition instead, unless you're also changing the timing on the transition crossfades


You sure! am no kontakt expert but the sample start (as my ears tell me) seems to only affect the sample start. There is no touching or shifting that happens to the sample end. But maybe am just lucky there wasnt any noticeable legato cut-offs in the in the libraries Ive tried so far. they seem to glue with the following sustain as they are originally programmed


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## AEF (Nov 15, 2021)

Tried it with Cinestrings and its great!


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## Batrawi (Nov 17, 2021)

I'm still greatly enjoying this trick with LASS... especially with a splash of reverb and I'm literally lost in heaven. I mean can it get more lyrical and expressive as that with samples?
View attachment Aho da'lly sar -mockup..mp3


(and this is also the original music for reference)
View attachment Aho da'lly sar -original.mp3




AEF said:


> Tried it with Cinestrings and its great!


Wow!! I though CineSamples usually leave the full natural transitions within their samples and even have a knob for that in their GUI's... so does the trick really offer anything beyond that?


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## axb312 (Nov 17, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> I'm still greatly enjoying this trick with LASS... especially with a splash of reverb and I'm literally lost in heaven. I mean can it get more lyrical and expressive as that with samples?
> View attachment Aho da'lly sar -mockup..mp3
> 
> 
> ...


Mix and panning sound completely different...


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## Evans (Nov 17, 2021)

axb312 said:


> Mix and panning sound completely different...


Perhaps the intent was to show the capabilities of the strings themselves, and not to serve as an example of precision mixing skills? I think it got its point across just fine.


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## Batrawi (Nov 17, 2021)

Evans said:


> Perhaps the intent was to show the capabilities of the strings themselves, and not to serve as an example of precision mixing skills? I think it got its point across just fine.


thx mate you beat me to it


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## axb312 (Nov 17, 2021)

Evans said:


> Perhaps the intent was to show the capabilities of the strings themselves, and not to serve as an example of precision mixing skills? I think it got its point across just fine.


The mix being so different made it a bit hard for me to compare the effects of using the pixelpoet trick to the same track without it.

Hope my intent was clear as well. Thank you for the condescension?


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## Casiquire (Nov 17, 2021)

axb312 said:


> The intent was clear but the mix being so different made it a bit hard for me to compare the effects of using the pixelpoet trick to the same track without it.
> 
> Hope my intent was clear as well. Thank you for the condescension?


I don't think that was the same track without the trick--I think it's the original recording


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## axb312 (Nov 17, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I don't think that was the same track without the trick--I think it's the original recording


Ok. Then I'm in the wrong. I do apologize @Evans @Batrawi . Thought this was the same track with and without the pixelpoet trick.


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## Batrawi (Nov 17, 2021)

axb312 said:


> Ok. Then I'm in the wrong. I do apologize @Evans @Batrawi . Thought this was the same track with and without the pixelpoet trick.


no problemo happens all the time. but does this mean my mockup was THAT good


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## Casiquire (Nov 17, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> no problemo happens all the time. but does this mean my mockup was THAT good


Off my phone, it sounded pretty great! But I'm definitely not in an ideal listening environment.


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## Evans (Nov 17, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Off my phone, it sounded pretty great! But I'm definitely not in an ideal listening environment.


Sure is a frequent one! If it doesn't sound good on a phone or in a car, is it actually good?


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## Lionel Schmitt (Nov 17, 2021)

Anyone tried it with Afflatus?
I don't have it but I feel like it could be spectacular.

Works with other Strezov libraries but had to set the constant slider back at about 4%.
At 100% the intervals were like 2-3 seconds long and useless haha XD


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## Obi-Wan Spaghetti (Nov 17, 2021)

Anyone tried it with NI symp. orchestra?


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## Batrawi (Nov 17, 2021)

I think we can start to make a list just to make sure we don't get lost. so the trick has been reported to work with the following libraries so far (please remind me if I missed anything) and @Pixelpoet1985 you can start including the list in the OP when you can:

-Berlin Brass
-Berlin Strings
-Berlin Woodwinds
-Cinestrings
-Freya
-LASS
-NOVO
-Wotan


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## Casiquire (Nov 17, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> I think we can start to make a list just to make sure we don't get lost. so the trick has been reported to work with the following libraries so far (please remind me if I missed anything) and @Pixelpoet1985 you can start including the list in the OP when you can:
> 
> -Berlin Strings
> -Berlin Woodwinds
> ...


And Berlin Brass!


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## Fry777 (Nov 17, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> I think we can start to make a list just to make sure we don't get lost. so the trick has been reported to work with the following libraries so far (please remind me if I missed anything) and @Pixelpoet1985 you can start including the list in the OP when you can:
> 
> -Berlin Brass
> -Berlin Strings
> ...



It also gives good results with NOVO. 
Have you tried it with NSS ?


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## alcorey (Nov 17, 2021)

It doesn't work with N


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## Evans (Nov 17, 2021)

This weekend is going to be awful, plodding through these. It could become an obsession.


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## Obi-Wan Spaghetti (Nov 17, 2021)

alcorey said:


> It doesn't work with N


N?


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## Batrawi (Nov 17, 2021)

Fry777 said:


> It also gives good results with NOVO.
> Have you tried it with NSS ?


thx, added. I tried it with NSS but did not notice any difference. will have to double check


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## Casiquire (Nov 17, 2021)

I noticed a difference with Dominus. I think whether it helps or hurts depends on the music, but it does give you a different sound to work with which is always a good thing. In some ways it almost feels slightly more forceful than the default


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## Raphioli (Nov 17, 2021)

Great thread!

Too bad Spitfire locks their legato patches... :(


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## Batrawi (Nov 17, 2021)

Raphioli said:


> Great thread!
> 
> Too bad Spitfire locks their legato patches... :(


even worse, they know about the trick and have put a speed knob for it on the GUI of some of their libraries in the past (SCS & SSS as i recall) and then completely abandoned it!! like, "how to torture your customer"😒


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## Raphioli (Nov 18, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> even worse, they know about the trick and have put a speed knob for it on the GUI of some of their libraries in the past (SCS & SSS as i recall) and then completely abandoned it!! like, "how to torture your customer"😒


I think some patches still had that slider. I think its the old legacy legato patch, but unsure.
Don't have my DAW PC booted up right now.

But as far as I can remember, I think that slider barely changed the sound.
For some patches, it would open a gap between the sustain and the legato transition creating a second of silence.
Maybe that's the reason they removed it from most of the patches.
So that slider might have been different from what the Pixelpoet trick is doing.

Either way, I think the legatos in Spitfire libraries are one of the libs which really can (possibly) benefit from this trick. Really disappointing. I understand that they want to protect their script, but I only can fully support locking a patch only if the legato is working perfectly like CSS.

If Spitfire really does not want to unlock it for us to fix, maybe their dev team could apply the Pixelpoet fix for us and deploy a "Pixelpot ver." for each legato/portamento patch?

Apologies for the rant...


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## Batrawi (Nov 18, 2021)

Raphioli said:


> I think some patches still had that slider. I think its the old legacy legato patch, but unsure.
> Don't have my DAW PC booted up right now.
> 
> But as far as I can remember, I think that slider barely changed the sound.
> ...


I have SCS and I can confirm that the legato speed slider on the GUI does exactly what the PixP trick does. I was so disappointed that they removed it from their newer Studio Strings which I also have and have sent them a feature request to add this slider back. that was maybe a couple of years ago so I assume they just didn't bother or didn't receive enough requests for the same feature to react.


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## Sarah Mancuso (Nov 18, 2021)

The speed slider in Spitfire legato patches tends to make it actually sound worse to my ears, due to the issue Raphioli described where you get an audible volume dip in between. I'm sure it's solvable with access to the Kontakt editor, but that's on Spitfire to do...


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## Raphioli (Nov 18, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> I have SCS and I can confirm that the legato speed slider on the GUI does exactly what the PixP trick does. I was so disappointed that they removed it from their newer Studio Strings which I also have and have sent them a feature request to add this slider back. that was maybe a couple of years ago so I assume they just didn't bother or didn't receive enough requests for the same feature to react.


Interesting. I've tried adjusting that parameter, but I decided to just leave it alone after it created gaps between the sustain and transitions like I've mentioned above.
I also have SCS btw (don't have Studio strings). 
The only thing I dislike about the library are the hit and miss transitions. Believe it or not, some transitions are silky smooth, but unfortunately, most of them are subpar.

Which makes me appreciate that Orchestral Tools and some other library developers keep it unlocked.
Since it gives us a chance to fix or customize a patch.


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## Raphioli (Nov 18, 2021)

Sarah Mancuso said:


> The speed slider in Spitfire legato patches tends to make it actually sound worse to my ears, due to the issue Raphioli described where you get an audible volume dip in between.


Yes, exactly this ^
Which is why I decided to leave it alone a long time ago.


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## Batrawi (Nov 18, 2021)

Sarah Mancuso said:


> The speed slider in Spitfire legato patches tends to make it actually sound worse to my ears, due to the issue Raphioli described where you get an audible volume dip in between. I'm sure it's solvable with access to the Kontakt editor, but that's on Spitfire to do...


That actually explains why most developers "hide" this feature rather than putting it proudly on their GUI. Unless they recorded & edited the transitions with that purpose in mind (like Cinematic Studio Strings for ex.) it will come out as clumsy as the SCS one. That's why I said this earlier here that while the PixP trick gives us access to these transitions, it is also a double edged weapon since you're accessing the developer's hidden "mess"


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## Sarah Mancuso (Nov 18, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> That actually explains why most developers "hide" this feature rather than putting it proudly on their GUI. Unless they recorded & edited the transitions with that purpose in mind (like Cinematic Studio Strings for ex.) it will come out as clumsy as the SCS one. That's why I said this earlier here that while the PixP trick gives us access to these transitions, it is also a double edged weapon since you're accessing the developer's hidden "mess"


It's not a recording issue, really. The crossfade timings defined by the developers need to be matched properly to the samples (by ear), and doing it poorly has the results you're hearing with that slider.

When you go into the Kontakt editor to change a sample's start offset, if you hear noticeable problems it's not because you're revealing the developer's mistakes, it's because you're only doing part of the job.


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## Batrawi (Nov 18, 2021)

Sarah Mancuso said:


> It's not a recording issue, really. The crossfade timings defined by the developers need to be matched properly to the samples (by ear), and doing it poorly has the results you're hearing with that slider.
> 
> When you go into the Kontakt editor to change a sample's start offset, if you hear noticeable problems it's not because you're revealing the developer's mistakes, it's because you're only doing part of the job.


Partially Agree. coz It can still be a recording issue if the players have not been instructed in the first place to play these legato intervals as uniform as possible for the purpose of being a good raw material for the developer to edit/optimize later (again like CSS). That's why even if we can go under the hood and we were able to access the transitions with the PixP trick and refine the volume balance etc.. we can never deal with other issues such as out-of-tune transitions, inconsistent transition lengths etc.. originally inhereted from the lack of good instructions during the recording sessions..


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## Sarah Mancuso (Nov 18, 2021)

Batrawi said:


> Partially Agree. coz It can still be a recording issue if the players have not been instructed in the first place to play these legato intervals as uniform as possible for the purpose of being a good raw material for the developer to edit/optimize later (again like CSS). That's why even if we can go under the hood and we were able to access the transitions with the PixP trick and refine the volume balance etc.. we can never deal with other issues such as out-of-tune transitions, inconsistent transition lengths etc.. originally inhereted from the lack of good instructions during the recording sessions..


Even with uneven samples, there's a lot that can be done with careful zone editing in Kontakt, if you're patient enough (and have a decent Creator Tools workflow for propagating your changes across multiple mics). One of the things that I spent the most time on with Adachi was evening out uneven volume levels (as well as timings) between legato samples, to mitigate issues where one interval would be dramatically louder than another, or where one would sound too quickly and another would sound too late.


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## Raphioli (Nov 18, 2021)

Sarah Mancuso said:


> Even with uneven samples, there's a lot that can be done with careful zone editing in Kontakt, if you're patient enough (and have a decent Creator Tools workflow for propagating your changes across multiple mics). One of the things that I spent the most time on with Adachi was evening out uneven volume levels (as well as timings) between legato samples, to mitigate issues where one interval would be dramatically louder than another, or where one would sound too quickly and another would sound too late.


Spitfire just needs to hire @Sarah Mancuso and let her fix their libraries legatos. (after she's finished with TSS of course)


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## Batrawi (Nov 18, 2021)

Sarah Mancuso said:


> Even with uneven samples, there's a lot that can be done with careful zone editing in Kontakt, if you're patient enough (and have a decent Creator Tools workflow for propagating your changes across multiple mics). One of the things that I spent the most time on with Adachi was evening out uneven volume levels (as well as timings) between legato samples, to mitigate issues where one interval would be dramatically louder than another, or where one would sound too quickly and another would sound too late.


I'm definetly patient enough but cenrtainly still don't have enough expertise/tools to dig deeper as you were able to do with Adachi (besides I'm not really a fast leaner as you are - so I envy you on this - touch wood  ) but I still have done my best and tried to mess with things such as "felixible Envelope" and even "time machine pro" to even the transitions in terms of volume/length etc.. but some of them were really ugly enough to make me think they're hopeless case or not worth going the extra mile for.


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## EvilDragon (Nov 18, 2021)

Raphioli said:


> Spitfire just needs to hire @Sarah Mancuso and let her fix their libraries legatos. (after she's finished with TSS of course)


Ain't happening since ISW snapped her up for good


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## timbit2006 (Nov 18, 2021)

EvilDragon said:


> Ain't happening since ISW snapped her up for good


Sarah Manusco is the legato hero we need for ALL libraries though... Perhaps we should look into cloning vat technology to make a Sarah for every developer.


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## Raphioli (Nov 18, 2021)

EvilDragon said:


> Ain't happening since ISW snapped her up for good


oh wow, permanently?! well I guess that means congratulations to Sarah!
And also to ISW for being able to hire a talented scripter.


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## muk (Nov 21, 2021)

Here is a short example with Berlin Strings Violins 1. 

1) Berlin Strings Vl 1, Decca Tree

2) The same, with Pixelpoet trick applied

3) Sine version

View attachment Berlin Strings - Pixelpoet - Sine.mp3



The Kontakt version has a few transition noises that spoil the fun. The Pixelpoet trick does not work too well here for my taste. In the first phrase, the playing is already too fast for it, and it does not sound well. The second phrase works better. Can anybody explain why it is so dry? It sounds as if the legato transitions were coming from the close mic instead the tree. Odd. In the Sine version, to my ears the legato transitions have been smoothed so much as to become featureless. To be honest, none of these versions work for me.


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## dannesand (Nov 21, 2021)

muk said:


> Here is a short example with Berlin Strings Violins 1.
> 
> 1) Berlin Strings Vl 1, Decca Tree
> 
> ...


Interesting, thanks for this comparison!

In my own opinion, 1 has a slight attack at the start of each legato transition, while 2 becomes all dry for some reason? It's like the release tail is gone and the legato is dry, like as if the room disappeared. Do all the examples use the same mic config?

Tbh, I kinda preferred the 3rd one, albeit it is very clean and too loud at times. The transitions still have "room sound" in them though, whereas the 1 and 2 (especially 2) seemed to lack in that regard.

I think, at least in this example, what SINE needs is some way to alter the transitions, be it legato speed, CC legato volume, CC legato transition type, and such; i.e. we need more control over HOW the legato should behave.


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## muk (Nov 21, 2021)

dannesand said:


> Do all the examples use the same mic config?


Yes, just the tree mic on all examples.


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## Batrawi (Nov 21, 2021)

muk said:


> Can anybody explain why it is so dry? It sounds as if the legato transitions were coming from the close mic instead the tree.



@Mr Pringles , sorry I'll keep quoting you as I think it can't be explained better than this 🙂



Mr Pringles said:


> What this trick does and why it makes the legato sound good is because it eliminates the leftover of the previous note. This leftover note makes the legato sound unrealistic because it would be impossible in real life to hear it.



leftover, includes things such static vibrato & hall tail from previous sustain note which in reality should never interfere with the legato transitions. But I think our ears are starting to get ruined as developers continue to use this false representation in their scripting. I personally find #2 sounds the most realistic


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## jbuhler (Nov 21, 2021)

muk said:


> Yes, just the tree mic on all examples.


Did you try turning down the legato volume a bit in Sine? I find that sometimes helps. Then, too, try the other legato (slurred versus fingered). Finally try mixing other longs with legato enabled into the sequence which often yield better legato transitions.


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## Obi-Wan Spaghetti (Nov 21, 2021)

muk said:


> Here is a short example with Berlin Strings Violins 1.
> 
> 1) Berlin Strings Vl 1, Decca Tree
> 
> ...


Wouldn't it be easier to judge if you used just the close mic?


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## muk (Nov 21, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Did you try turning down the legato volume a bit in Sine?


For my taste it sounds like I have to turn the volume up in Sine. Switching between slurred and fingered could definitely help. Layering other long articulations with legato enabled sounds like a cool trick too! However, at this point the library becomes impractical to use for me personally. If I have to layer at every other note transition, that takes too long for me. And that's when I switched to another library where the legato transitions are more to my taste and less work. Hopefully Orchestral Tools keeps tweaking the transitions in Sine.



Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> Wouldn't it be easier to judge if you used just the close mic?


For drier signals, legato is easier to program because you don't have to deal with tail from the previous note. That's why I think the tree mic is a better representation how the library deals with legato because it is trickier. But a comparison with the close mic is certainly possible too.


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## Obi-Wan Spaghetti (Nov 21, 2021)

> it eliminates the leftover of the previous note.


Is that all it does? I thought there was more to it? Like sample start?


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## Obi-Wan Spaghetti (Nov 21, 2021)

muk said:


> For drier signals, legato is easier to program because you don't have to deal with tail from the previous note. That's why I think the tree mic is a better representation how the library deals with legato because it is trickier. But a comparison with the close mic is certainly possible too.


Yea well maybe i completely misunderstood what this trick does so maybe not a good idea.


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## Raphioli (Nov 21, 2021)

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> Yea well maybe i completely misunderstood what this trick does so maybe not a good idea.


I personally prefer the pixelpoet trick result. Theres some good examples in the previous pages of this thread.

But this is why I think SINE should just let us go under the hood and let us set our own values.
Because more or less, everyones opinion/taste differs.
I remember watching one of Cinesamples walkthrough and Mike was saying they ending up adding a legato speed knob because so many users had different requests/tastes regarding legato.


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## jbuhler (Nov 21, 2021)

muk said:


> For my taste it sounds like I have to turn the volume up in Sine.


That's what I would have thought too, but I frequently find that turning it down slightly makes it sound better, not simply softer. My guess is that's because of how the crossfade works. I haven't yet started working out what I think the best volume is for the legato transitions for BS.



muk said:


> Switching between slurred and fingered could definitely help. Layering other long articulations with legato enabled sounds like a cool trick too! However, at this point the library becomes impractical to use for me personally. If I have to layer at every other note transition, that takes too long for me.


Yes, I agree. I've mentioned before that I find BS to be a very fussy library, and this is partly what I mean. It's one reason I didn't use it much in its Kontakt form, though I really like its sound. But everything took twice as long to do in Kontakt BS, and it's not like the results were stunningly better. In very rudimentary preliminary tests, I am finding that BS is less fussy in Sine. Or rather that the time to get it to a satisfactory point is far less in Sine than in Kontakt. 

Just in general with OT Sine libraries, I find the basic sustain that is the default legato often yields the least expressive legato, and I will usually start with a different long as the base for the legato. This takes some work upfront in playing extensively with all the longs and legatos to see what the various capabilities are, but once I get my head around that, the OT libraries are no longer out of line with respect to the amount of time they take to program. I now find BSS to be one of the fastest and reliable of my string libraries in terms of programming; similarly Tallinn's strings. Of course both of those libraries have far fewer articulations to master, so we'll see how things ultimately pan out with BS.


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## muk (Nov 21, 2021)

Thank you James, you are giving me some good ideas here. I too like the sound of Berlin Strings. I'll try some of the other long articulations with legato instead of the basic sustains.


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## Mr Greg G (Nov 22, 2021)

Were you able to use the trick on LASS Vi First Chair?

I’m getting bad transition results and have to adjust the transition slider to about 5% which unfortunately defeats the purpose of the trick. And that’s too bad because without this transition issue, it made these FC sound quite ok instead of bad.


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## Batrawi (Nov 22, 2021)

Mr Pringles said:


> I’m getting bad transition results


If by 'bad transition' you mean that scratchiness and sudden cut in the sound, then maybe try to also increase the 'release' curve of the transitions to help them glue better to the next note. For the scratchy sound I'm afraid that's due to the original (bad?) recording or unpolished samples in the first place which you can't do much about (to my limited knwoledge - probably Sarah may have some other polishing trickeries). But yeah, that's basically the PixelPoet trick, it gives you access to the full sample but it doesn't guarantee nor is responsible for the quality of the samples themselves. That's an extra job to do (ideally by developers as opposed to us normal consumers) as Sarah mentioned it earlier


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## Vladimir Bulaev (Nov 23, 2021)

I like how this trick reveals the hidden potential inherent in some of the instruments of the Berlin series. For example, Flute 3 from Berlin Woodwinds Revive(kontakt) and only on the slow legato patch.
My improvisation with a flute and a piano in a hurry demonstrates this. The amazing thing is that with this trick it is possible to do a fairly fast performance, and it turns out to be more natural and expressive than by default. I notice that with the trick it even reproduces faster intervals better than slow ones. However, it is worth noting that the delay increases greatly, for obvious reasons, and therefore it is difficult to play in real time. But if realism is more important, then this is a good compromise that is only available to us in the kontakt version.
View attachment Piano and Flute.mp3


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## Casiquire (Nov 23, 2021)

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> I like how this trick reveals the hidden potential inherent in some of the instruments of the Berlin series. For example, Flute 3 from Berlin Woodwinds Revive(kontakt) and only on the slow legato patch.
> My improvisation with a flute and a piano in a hurry demonstrates this. The amazing thing is that with this trick it is possible to do a fairly fast performance, and it turns out to be more natural and expressive than by default. I notice that with the trick it even reproduces faster intervals better than slow ones. However, it is worth noting that the delay increases greatly, for obvious reasons, and therefore it is difficult to play in real time. But if realism is more important, then this is a good compromise that is only available to us in the kontakt version.
> View attachment Piano and Flute.mp3


You're so right. When i first applied this to LASS i thought the same thing. Yes it makes slow passages sound more natural, but it makes fast passages sound REALLY GOOD too.

Nice work. Sounds good to my ears!


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## Owen Smith (Nov 23, 2021)

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> I like how this trick reveals the hidden potential inherent in some of the instruments of the Berlin series. For example, Flute 3 from Berlin Woodwinds Revive(kontakt) and only on the slow legato patch.
> My improvisation with a flute and a piano in a hurry demonstrates this. The amazing thing is that with this trick it is possible to do a fairly fast performance, and it turns out to be more natural and expressive than by default. I notice that with the trick it even reproduces faster intervals better than slow ones. However, it is worth noting that the delay increases greatly, for obvious reasons, and therefore it is difficult to play in real time. But if realism is more important, then this is a good compromise that is only available to us in the kontakt version.
> View attachment Piano and Flute.mp3


Any idea if this would work for Berlin Inspire 2? I really like the library but the legato transitions on several of the instruments too quick and makes me not use them as much.


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## Batrawi (Jan 13, 2022)

Anyone tested the trick with the Sonokinetic OS? I'm very tempted by the sound of this library but wasn't wow'd enough by the legato to push me off the fence


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## muk (Jan 13, 2022)

Batrawi said:


> Anyone tested the trick with the Sonokinetic OS? I'm very tempted by the sound of this library but wasn't wow'd enough by the legato to push me off the fence


Only briefly. On a very quick test I didn't much prefer it over the standard legato on slow transitions, and it started to fall apart for faster playing quite quickly. So I didn't test it any further deciding that on this library the Pixelpoet-trick is not for me.


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## Batrawi (Jan 13, 2022)

muk said:


> On a very quick test I didn't much prefer it over the standard legato on slow transitions, and it started to fall apart for faster playing quite quickly.


great! thx for testing it... but aside from the "falling apart" thing and for the purpose of this thread... the real question is, did it actually sound better? I'm one of those who are always ready to sacrifice playability for the sake of realism


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## molemac (Jan 13, 2022)

Is there a consensus on whether BS is better with Pixeltrick than sine . If so is there a step by step guide? Also what about Lass +pixel versus Lass 3 ?


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## Batrawi (Jan 13, 2022)

molemac said:


> Is there a consensus on whether BS is better with Pixeltrick than sine . If so is there a step by step guide?


in the first page... Vladimir posted the groups selected for BS and also some examples of PixP vs the default kontakt legato... don't know about the legatos in sine though, but I've heard people saying they've been improved over the kontakt version


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## Casiquire (Jan 13, 2022)

molemac said:


> Is there a consensus on whether BS is better with Pixeltrick than sine . If so is there a step by step guide? Also what about Lass +pixel versus Lass 3 ?


I like it better for BS but the margin is so small that i don't bother much. I quite like the legato in BS, especially with the fingered violins or the Expressive Longs patches if i need to hear every note change, for those soaring melodies. 

I don't have LASS3 so grain of salt, but my impression is that it's not necessary because the software itself is applying the trick for you, out of the box.


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## molemac (Jan 13, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> I like it better for BS but the margin is so small that i don't bother much. I quite like the legato in BS, especially with the fingered violins or the Expressive Longs patches if i need to hear every note change, for those soaring melodies.
> 
> I don't have LASS3 so grain of salt, but my impression is that it's not necessary because the software itself is applying the trick for you, out of the box.


Thanks that answers my questions, I don’t need to bother with it then except for maybe the Berlin winds ( again maybe sine has improved them ? )


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## Batrawi (Jan 13, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> I don't have LASS3 so grain of salt, but my impression is that it's not necessary because the software itself is applying the trick for you, out of the box.


makes me wonder what if we applied the trick on LASS3 while it's already applied by its engine.....


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## muk (Jan 14, 2022)

Batrawi said:


> the real question is, did it actually sound better?


Not to my ears.



Batrawi said:


> I'm one of those who are always ready to sacrifice playability for the sake of realism


Same for me, if you replace 'realism' by 'sounding good'. However, the Pixelpoet-trick does no such thing on Sonokinetic Orchestral Strings to my ears. It seems that Sonokinetic doesn't cut anything vital from the legato transition with their legato scripting. And thus, applying the Pixelpoet-trick does not add anything that was missing before. The transition itself sounds pretty the same to me with or without it. There is a bit more lag, and if you play even at moderate speed only, the transitions begin to smear. In my quick tests, Sonokinetic Orchestral Strings sounded better without the Pixelpoet-trick.


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## molemac (Jan 14, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> I like it better for BS but the margin is so small that i don't bother much. I quite like the legato in BS, especially with the fingered violins or the Expressive Longs patches if i need to hear every note change, for those soaring melodies.
> 
> I don't have LASS3 so grain of salt, but my impression is that it's not necessary because the software itself is applying the trick for you, out of the box.


2 more questions 1/ when I try and do the pixel trick in berlin strings by changing DFD to sampler I get an error message saying 
this group contains purged samples. Playback mode cannot be changed

2/ Am I right in saying the sine version of BS is missing articulations like the legato fingered and ostinato


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## Casiquire (Jan 14, 2022)

molemac said:


> 2 more questions 1/ when I try and do the pixel trick in berlin strings by changing DFD to sampler I get an error message saying
> this group contains purged samples. Playback mode cannot be changed
> 
> 2/ Am I right in saying the sine version of BS is missing articulations like the legato fingered and ostinato


I still feel slightly fresh with the library so grain of salt, but 1, that's normal. Open the patch completely fresh, enable all the mics, and then try it again. If mics are off those are "purged samples", and i feel like it's not enough to just reload all the mics in the same instance. It needs to be reloaded fresh.

2, the fingered legato is still there in SINE and sounds great to me. The playable gliss is gone, the noise mics are gone, but I'm not sure about the ostinato articulation, but i think it's gone too. To my knowledge that's all that's missing


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## muziksculp (Feb 21, 2022)

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Open WRENCH mode.
> 
> 
> Select all the legato interval samples with the SHIFT key (they are called this way, I believe it's 12 ones for up/12 ones for down intervals) and set the edit flag.


Hi,

I'm trying to do this edit procedure, but I'm unclear about the second instruction here. 

What exactly is the name of the legato interval samples that I need to select with the SHIFT Key ? It mentions the 12 ones for Up, and 12 ones for down intervals, but what's the name of these samples ? Are they the ones which begin with the word 'Norm' ? or .... ? 

Thanks.


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## Batrawi (Feb 22, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Are they the ones which begin with the word 'Norm' ? or .... ?


yes

but haven't you got LASS3 already which has GUI legato spd control?


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## muziksculp (Feb 22, 2022)

Batrawi said:


> yes
> 
> but haven't you got LASS3 already which has GUI legato spd control?


Yes, I have LASS 3, but haven't tested the Legato Speed control yet, I will be comparing both LASS 2.5 with Pixelpoet trick, to LASS 3 Legato Speed control. I already love the way LASS 2.5 legatos with pixelpoet trick sounds. 

I will post some feedback as well. Given there is very little posted about LASS 3 here, and on YT.


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## Casiquire (Feb 22, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Yes, I have LASS 3, but haven't tested the Legato Speed control yet, I will be comparing both LASS 2.5 with Pixelpoet trick, to LASS 3 Legato Speed control. I already love the way LASS 2.5 legatos with pixelpoet trick sounds.
> 
> I will post some feedback as well. Given there is very little posted about LASS 3 here, and on YT.


I would look at both speed and legato offset for that, because my impression is that the Pixelpoet Trick is actually affecting the offset. So that makes sense for the sake of comparison!


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## muziksculp (Feb 22, 2022)

Hi, 

I noticed that there were no videos posted on YouTube showing the process of applying the Pixelpoet Legato Trick. So, I decided to make one. 

I apply it to *Heavyocity*s *NOVO Strings* Legato Articulation, and explain the steps via annotations. The midi data is identical for both the stock preset, and the pixelpoet version, and so are the mixer settings for both versions. 

I hope this is helpful. I plan to try it on other Kontakt Strings libraries that are open for editing, and check how much better the legatos sound. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## [email protected] (Apr 26, 2022)

Hi, guys, I try to use the Pixelpoet Trick in the Berlin Series and started with the Woodwinds Legacy Collection and I did it according to this video:


The settings match perfectly with those in the video but the notes are just weirdly sustained so that it sounds as if I would play sustained notes with my foot on the sustain pedal. Did anyone else have this probem so far?


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## Vladimir Bulaev (Apr 27, 2022)

[email protected] said:


> Hi, guys, I try to use the Pixelpoet Trick in the Berlin Series and started with the Woodwinds Legacy Collection and I did it according to this video:
> 
> 
> The settings match perfectly with those in the video but the notes are just weirdly sustained so that it sounds as if I would play sustained notes with my foot on the sustain pedal. Did anyone else have this probem so far?



"Berlin Woodwinds Legacy" and "Berlin Woodwinds Revive" are completely different products. For the legacy version, this trick may be ineffective. As far as I know, legato "Berlin Woodwinds Legacy" are fine. They don't need this trick.


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## [email protected] (Apr 27, 2022)

@Vladimir Bulaev Thank you very much for the answer. Then I will leave them as is. It's quity tricky that every instrument behaves differently to the Pixelpoet-Trick. Yours and also @muziksculp's videos are super helpful for figuring it out.


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## Batrawi (Apr 27, 2022)

[email protected] said:


> @Vladimir Bulaev Thank you very much for the answer. Then I will leave them as is. It's quity tricky that every instrument behaves differently to the Pixelpoet-Trick. Yours and also @muziksculp's videos are super helpful for figuring it out.


I did face this issue when I tried the trick on other libraries (don't have any OT ones) and discovered that this sustaining issue is because I've mistakenly selected the "release" samples along with the legato transition samples in the editor. Its easy to fall in this trap because, when played, you'll see them momentarily blink in the editor just like the legato transitions. So just be careful not to select the release samples when applying this trick


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## moon (May 15, 2022)

So I just tried this trick on Voxos, and lord help me, the sustains, legato transitions, and releases are all in one group as different velocity layers...


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## [email protected] (Jun 8, 2022)

Batrawi said:


> I did face this issue when I tried the trick on other libraries (don't have any OT ones) and discovered that this sustaining issue is because I've mistakenly selected the "release" samples along with the legato transition samples in the editor. Its easy to fall in this trap because, when played, you'll see them momentarily blink in the editor just like the legato transitions. So just be careful not to select the release samples when applying this trick


Thank you very much, @Batrawi! It seems that I missed your answer and I didn't have time to try using the Pixelpoet-Trick again until today. I chose the wrong samples indeed since the release samples also blink when you play.

By the way: When you choose the "expert" view" than you can get a way better overview over the used samples:





So with Flute 2 of the _Berlin Woodwinds_ I was now able to apply the Pixelpoet Trick as @Vladimir Bulaev demonstrated in his video. I turned on all mic positions to make sure that I don't miss any legato samples.

BUT: I have no idea how to apply the trick to Flute 1 since no legato samples show up while playing:





Did I miss anything here?


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## Casiquire (Jun 8, 2022)

[email protected] said:


> Thank you very much, @Batrawi! It seems that I missed your answer and I didn't have time to try using the Pixelpoet-Trick again until today. I chose the wrong samples indeed since the release samples also blink when you play.
> 
> By the way: When you choose the "expert" view" than you can get a way better overview over the used samples:
> 
> ...


Try not to focus too much on which groups light up when you play, because you can capture a lot of things you don't want, such as releases. Instead I'd try applying it to all those groups with "LEG" at the front of the name.


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## [email protected] (Jun 8, 2022)

That makes sense - since a lot of the "LEG+"-samples don't light up once when I play. I will just check all the boxes. But is there a reason why people didn't use the "expert"-view except for not being aware of it? I don't want to fall in any new traps...


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## Casiquire (Jun 8, 2022)

[email protected] said:


> That makes sense - since a lot of the "LEG+"-samples don't light up once when I play. I will just check all the boxes. But is there a reason why people didn't use the "expert"-view except for not being aware of it? I don't want to fall in any new traps...


For me it was awareness at first. Now I find it very convenient. It just isn't the ONLY thing I rely on. I think the labels are more reliable, at least for the libraries I own.


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## [email protected] (Jul 10, 2022)

@muziksculp I am wondering why you don't push the sample start completely to 250 as Vladimir Bulaev did in his video. Wouldn't be the "complete push-back" the best solution since it would give us the complete recorded legato transition? Just wondering.


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## Ricgus3 (Jul 10, 2022)

Just saw this thread! Has anyone tries this with Areia?


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## muziksculp (Jul 10, 2022)

[email protected] said:


> @muziksculp I am wondering why you don't push the sample start completely to 250 as Vladimir Bulaev did in his video. Wouldn't be the "complete push-back" the best solution since it would give us the complete recorded legato transition? Just wondering.


Hi,

Sorry, Which library are you referring to here ?


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## [email protected] (Jul 17, 2022)

@muziksculp I am very sorry for my late reply! I somehow missed you question and wasn't active here for some days.
I always thought that putting the "revert"-value back to 0 would expose the complete legato transition - and that's what we would like to get when we apply the Pixel Poet Trick.
But in your demo videos you often suggest a value larger than 0, for example here where you suggest setting it to 11,7%:


or here where you set it to 5.4%:


Just wondering why you don't got for the full sample start


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## muziksculp (Jul 17, 2022)

[email protected] said:


> Just wondering why you don't got for the full sample start


You can set it as you wish, I was just not setting it to zero to get the full sample start, but you can if you like the results to get the longest transition.


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## Sarah Mancuso (Jul 17, 2022)

[email protected] said:


> @muziksculp I am very sorry for my late reply! I somehow missed you question and wasn't active here for some days.
> I always thought that putting the "revert"-value back to 0 would expose the complete legato transition - and that's what we would like to get when we apply the Pixel Poet Trick.
> But in your demo videos you often suggest a value larger than 0, for example here where you suggest setting it to 11,7%:
> [video]
> ...


The longer the legato transition delay is, the more "glitches" you'll have when playing a fast part, because when your super long legato transition gets cut off by the next note coming in early, there's only been enough time to play the before-transition part of the transition sample, and not the transition part where the important stuff happens.

More does not necessarily equal better, and there's usually a good compromise zone that can cover most types of playing. The exception to this is if the instrument is smart enough to switch between legato speeds with a lookahead system (or manually via automation). In which case it would _already_ be exposing the proper amount of transition sample and you wouldn't "need" to modify it yourself.


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## muziksculp (Jul 17, 2022)

Sarah Mancuso said:


> The longer the legato transition delay is, the more "glitches" you'll have when playing a fast part, because when your super long legato transition gets cut off by the next note coming in early, there's only been enough time to play the before-transition part of the transition sample, and not the transition part where the important stuff happens.
> 
> More does not necessarily equal better, and there's usually a good compromise zone that can cover most types of playing. The exception to this is if the instrument is smart enough to switch between legato speeds with a lookahead system (or manually via automation). In which case it would _already_ be exposing the proper amount of transition sample and you wouldn't "need" to modify it yourself.


Hi @Sarah Mancuso ,

I agree. I think that's one of the main reasons I didn't set the sample start too early, which did produce some issues when playing. Hopefully this will further clarify this detail for @[email protected] .


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## Casiquire (Jul 17, 2022)

[email protected] said:


> @muziksculp I am very sorry for my late reply! I somehow missed you question and wasn't active here for some days.
> I always thought that putting the "revert"-value back to 0 would expose the complete legato transition - and that's what we would like to get when we apply the Pixel Poet Trick.
> But in your demo videos you often suggest a value larger than 0, for example here where you suggest setting it to 11,7%:
> 
> ...



I never go for the full length. For one thing there are a often a lot of inconsistencies and noises hiding in those parts of the sample that are intentionally cut out. For another the timing might be totally off. Maybe it's just me but I feel like even between notes in the same patch, pulling the sample too far starts to mess up the timing between notes enough to make it hard to play. And my last reason against it is that the further you pull it the bigger the delay is, and it can get very sluggish and difficult to use. 

Also it's not actually necessary in order to get a better transition. I've found that being very subtle about it gets me better results--the timings stay about as consistent as they originally were, just 20-50 more milliseconds can make a massive difference, and if you're hearing the full transition and a short bit before the transition fully exposed, another ten or hundred milliseconds of the sustain doesn't make a difference anymore. It's just in that very tight moment before transitioning that I want to bring in more clarity


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## [email protected] (Jul 19, 2022)

@muziksculp @Sarah Mancuso @Casiquire Thank you soo much for your explanations! It's wonderful how people are willing to share information and explain stuff to noobs like me - thank you very much again! I will go on experimenting with this.


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## Vladimir Bulaev (Jul 29, 2022)

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> Here is a quick demonstration of Berlin Strings, Berlin Strings+Pixelpoet Trick versus the king of legato CSS. I apologize for the music, it was written in a hurry in a short time. Soon I will try to record a better and more musically developed demonstration. I hope.


And so, please pay attention. The first two examples are Berlin strings main legato patches, and the last third piece of the excerpt is Berlin Sul Tasto Legato.

I find sultasto's legato patches quite realistic especially after this trick. Not as smooth as Cinematic Studio, but very inspiring, so I'll make a few more comparisons in the future.


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## TonalDynamics (Aug 25, 2022)

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> And so, please pay attention. The first two examples are Berlin strings main legato patches, and the last third piece of the excerpt is Berlin Sul Tasto Legato.
> 
> I find sultasto's legato patches quite realistic especially after this trick. Not as smooth as Cinematic Studio, but very inspiring, so I'll make a few more comparisons in the future.


Vlad, have you reached a point as others have alluded to with this technique where you are playing a faster phrase and the samples start to slur together in odd ways, with the mod value pushed to maximum? If so have you experimented with adjusting the delay on the modulation in such cases?

In any case those modded patches are just an improvement in legato quality, without question.

I am now considering overhauling a lot of my Berlin CAPSULE patches with this technique... but I am worried about causing issues with samples colliding with phrases played at higher speeds.

Also I would no doubt have to go back into a lot of finished projects and fix the timings of countless string tracks... woof.

Decisions!


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## Batrawi (Aug 25, 2022)

TonalDynamics said:


> but I am worried about causing issues with samples colliding with phrases played at higher speeds.


I recall the sample start is cc assignable, so you can make it faster on the fly when playing faster phrases


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## Vladimir Bulaev (Aug 28, 2022)

Yes, it is, you can assign a controller to the CC controlling it. But I notice a more natural sound when the legato is fully revealed. Moreover, it seems to work better on a faster play than a slow one, within the recorded legato of course. If faster notes are required, then articulations for fast playing will work better. However, if you cut off the legato, the overlay of the sustain of one note on another is noticeable. 


At the moment, I think the Cinematic studio series works the best for me, since can be tamed using a magic script. in such a way that you can almost forget about the delay as a bad dream. Unfortunately, this is not possible for the rest of the libraries (except Tokyo scoring strings and modern scoring strings). You need to realize the complexity and limitations that they entail.


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## Batrawi (Sep 12, 2022)

Expressive String libraries


Digging through these forums to find libraries I have never heard of (THERE ARE MANY). I promise to keep researching, but looking for a 'short list'. I've been writing for live strings and orchestras for a long time and rarely relied on VI for the actual work because I just couldn't get what I...




vi-control.net





using one of John's music posted here (and getting carried away with it a bit), I revisited one of my libraries which I didn't like much with the PxP trick, but now I'm starting to like it very much... what do you think? can you guess the library? (no processing applied except some tiny eq adjustment and positioning the sections within VSS)

View attachment Pixp Test.mp3


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## Ricgus3 (Sep 12, 2022)

Batrawi said:


> Expressive String libraries
> 
> 
> Digging through these forums to find libraries I have never heard of (THERE ARE MANY). I promise to keep researching, but looking for a 'short list'. I've been writing for live strings and orchestras for a long time and rarely relied on VI for the actual work because I just couldn't get what I...
> ...


I think it sounds lovely! Is it your own kontakt instrument?


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## Obi-Wan Spaghetti (Sep 12, 2022)

Batrawi said:


> Expressive String libraries
> 
> 
> Digging through these forums to find libraries I have never heard of (THERE ARE MANY). I promise to keep researching, but looking for a 'short list'. I've been writing for live strings and orchestras for a long time and rarely relied on VI for the actual work because I just couldn't get what I...
> ...


8Dio? Forgot the name of the one i have in mind cause no coffee yet.


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## Batrawi (Sep 12, 2022)

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> 8Dio? Forgot the name of the one i have in mind cause no coffee yet.


wow... I want your ears😁


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## Obi-Wan Spaghetti (Sep 12, 2022)

Batrawi said:


> wow... I want your ears😁


I'll give you the wax with it if you want?


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## ImJim (Oct 24, 2022)

Batrawi said:


> wow... I want your ears😁


What 8dio lib is this? Sounds super intimate, the tone is even better than SCS.


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## Obi-Wan Spaghetti (Oct 24, 2022)

ImJim said:


> What 8dio lib is this? Sounds super intimate, the tone is even better than SCS.


I assumed it was Deep Quintet Strings at the time. They also have Intimate Studio Strings that was recorded in the same studio. And so are their Deep solo strings i believe.


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## Batrawi (Oct 24, 2022)

ImJim said:


> What 8dio lib is this? Sounds super intimate, the tone is even better than SCS.


century strings


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## Obi-Wan Spaghetti (Oct 24, 2022)

Batrawi said:


> century strings


The close mic right?


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## Batrawi (Oct 24, 2022)

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> The close mic right?


yes. cant remember which one though (they have 2 or even 3 of those) but it's the one that sounds the closest to my ears.


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## Obi-Wan Spaghetti (Oct 24, 2022)

Batrawi said:


> yes. cant remember which one though (they have 2 or even 3 of those) but it's the one that sounds the closest to my ears.


What also surprised me was how nimble it can be like the 3 rapide decending notes at 14 sec. I don't remember being able to do that at the time and it was my biggest and pretty much the only issue i had with the library. I didn't try with the close mic only. I plan on getting good Teldex IRs in the near future and will revisit CS with close mic and those IRs for sure. The same note RR also worked really well. Anyway, thanks.


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## artinro (Oct 25, 2022)

Batrawi said:


> yes. cant remember which one though (they have 2 or even 3 of those) but it's the one that sounds the closest to my ears.


This sounds quite good! That's a library I have but "shelved" as well for several reasons. Any chance you could divulge more details on how you achieved this PXP trick with this specific library @Batrawi? I'd love to give it a try again. Also, is this the updated Century 2 or the original library.


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## Batrawi (Oct 25, 2022)

artinro said:


> This sounds quite good! That's a library I have but "shelved" as well for several reasons. Any chance you could divulge more details on how you achieved this PXP trick with this specific library @Batrawi? I'd love to give it a try again. Also, is this the updated Century 2 or the original library.



This is what I do with violins 2, which is pretty much what I apply for the other sections and tweak as needed


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## Batrawi (Oct 25, 2022)

Batrawi said:


> violins 2


oh... and no pun intended😉


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## artinro (Oct 25, 2022)

Batrawi said:


> This is what I do with violins 2, which is pretty much what I apply for the other sections and tweak as needed


This appears to be the original century strings, not the updated 2.0 version. Very interesting! Thanks so much for the info. Looking forward to playing around with this a bit. So those two ID 754 and 755 selections within the group are the only ones adjusted?


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## Batrawi (Oct 25, 2022)

artinro said:


> So those two ID 754 and 755 selections within the group are the only ones adjusted?


Yes but of course when you load up other mics you'll need to find & select their corresponding IDs as well to apply the trick on them


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## artinro (Oct 25, 2022)

Batrawi said:


> Yes but of course when you load up other mics you'll need to find & select their corresponding IDs as well to apply the trick on them


Ah! I thought those IDs corresponded with dynamic layers, not mics.


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## Batrawi (Oct 25, 2022)

artinro said:


> Ah! I thought those IDs corresponded with dynamic layers, not mics.


no no make sure everything else is deselected and you only selecting samples belonging to the leg. transitions otherwise things will get screwed up.


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## artinro (Oct 25, 2022)

Batrawi said:


> no no make sure everything else is deselected and you only selecting samples belonging to the leg. transitions otherwise things will get screwed up.


Appreciate the info and I'm looking forward to trying this out. You got a very nice sound out of a library I'd holstered for quite a while. Interestingly, I much prefer the original to the updated "2.0" version of the library.


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## Batrawi (Oct 25, 2022)

artinro said:


> Appreciate the info and I'm looking forward to trying this out. You got a very nice sound out of a library I'd holstered for quite a while. Interestingly, I much prefer the original to the updated "2.0" version of the library.


in terms of sound I thought the update had those 2 new mix mics only (A&B), but the other mics remained unchanged no?


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## artinro (Oct 25, 2022)

Batrawi said:


> in terms of sound I thought the update had those 2 new mix mics only (A&B), but the other mics remained unchanged no?


I believe there was also an additional close mic and some changes to the programming.


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