# How come Musician players don't get credit in films?



## sherief83 (Oct 15, 2012)

I was watching an interview with Michael Giacchino and he mentioned something about how orchestra members don't even get credits in film and I've always wondered about that my self. I actually try to credit any live musician i've used in films.

In the animation world, almost every one involved in the film gets credit, even if your just rendering shots. I think musicians do far more than that.

Whats everyone's take on it?


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Oct 15, 2012)

i always watch the end credits and soloists usually have their names on screen

sometimes, when a small orchestra was used (e.g. chamber strings) they get their names on credits also...


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## rpaillot (Oct 15, 2012)

Interesting question Sherief.

Myself , I also wonder why even the guy who brings the coffee to the assistant of the assistant of the additional foley editor gets credited why important music members dont get credited


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## JohnG (Oct 15, 2012)

Maybe if they brought coffee?

Actually I have only rarely seen credit given to players, even those doing a lot of improvisation. It's that especially that I think should be credited.


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## JJP (Oct 15, 2012)

I would love to see them credited as well. Some of these players are absolute legends but no one knows their names.

If I recall, the AFM theatrical agreement only requires the leader/conductor, orchestra manager (contractor), orchestrators, librarian, and music prep company or supervising copyist to be credited.

I believe credits are pushed aside by bigger issues in negotiations. Priority is given to things that directly affect musicians' income and working conditions. If you have to choose between fighting for a raise or getting a credit, most choose the raise.


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## ryans (Oct 15, 2012)

No slight against musicians... but MANY people who work on films directly don't get credit in the "credits". 

Ryan


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## JJP (Oct 15, 2012)

ryans @ Mon Oct 15 said:


> No slight against musicians... but MANY people who work on films directly don't get credit in the "credits".



But if the catering company can get a credit... :roll:


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## impressions (Oct 15, 2012)

I think it's another thing that should be added to the musicians union thing.
There is no reason why credits is a trade for money. It's work-hard work. 

I've read somewherre that spike lee details the whole orchestra's personal.

So it might be just laziness of the production and the fear of the musician for bargaining and losing his job spot.


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## ryans (Oct 15, 2012)

JJP @ Mon Oct 15 said:


> ryans @ Mon Oct 15 said:
> 
> 
> > No slight against musicians... but MANY people who work on films directly don't get credit in the "credits".
> ...



Well, yes you have a point... but, I know personally that hundreds of visual effects artists are omitted, especially in bigger films where the work is outsourced.

Just saying the musicians aren't the only ones getting stiffed.

Ryan


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## EthanStoller (Oct 15, 2012)

On the brighter side, I have noticed a relatively recent trend where the musicians are credited on the CD soundtrack release.


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## JJP (Oct 15, 2012)

EthanStoller @ Mon Oct 15 said:


> On the brighter side, I have noticed a relatively recent trend where the musicians are credited on the CD soundtrack release.


That is required by AFM theatrical agreement. =o


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## JJP (Oct 15, 2012)

impressions @ Mon Oct 15 said:


> I think it's another thing that should be added to the musicians union thing.
> There is no reason why credits is a trade for money. It's work-hard work.


Agreed, there shouldn't have be a trade. The problem is that when the union (AFM) negotiates an agreement there are many issues on the table. Neither side gets everything they want, so tough decisions have to be made about priorities. Things like wages, healthcare, pension, working conditions, residuals, and jurisdiction take priority over credits in most cases. 

It's been a tough slog for all the guilds, not just musicians, to maintain wages and benefits in recent years, so the musicians have to decide where to put their efforts. The agreement is up for negotiations in November, so we'll see how things go after that. However I don't think screen credits are a high priority at this point.


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## Brian Ralston (Oct 15, 2012)

It is really going to have to be up to the composers to fight for this for their players. Unfortunately. 

I get why it is this way. Logistically...the music happens so close to the end of Post...that the picture and end crawl has probably already been output when the orchestra is still in a state of flux. So...it is a significant cost to output again at the last minute. Even digitally. It also adds lots of frames...and digital outputs to film (yes there are still outputs to film)...cost by the frame. The longer the credits....the more the cost. 

So...just put it in your composer contracts. 

My entire AFM Crooked Arrows orchestra got credited. Every person by section. Principals were even designated. I made sure of that. And every film I do from now on...it will happen for all of my musicians. It will be in my contract. End of story. 

I know the Taken 2 orchestra got credited as well by section. 

It will be up to composers to make this argument. If it means something to you to properly credit the amazing folks who bring your music to life and make you sound great...then put it in your contract AND get extra close to your Post-Supervisor and make sure they get credited properly. 

:wink:


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## sherief83 (Oct 15, 2012)

Brian Ralston @ Mon Oct 15 said:


> It is really going to have to be up to the composers to fight for this for their players. Unfortunately.
> 
> I get why it is this way. Logistically...the music happens so close to the end of Post...that the picture and end crawl has probably already been output when the orchestra is still in a state of flux. So...it is a significant cost to output again at the last minute. Even digitally. It also adds lots of frames...and digital outputs to film (yes there are still outputs to film)...cost by the frame. The longer the credits....the more the cost.
> 
> ...



That is exactly my thinking. Since earlier posts mentioned that the AFM union doesn't require it. It will be up to the composers to do it. I honestly don't know why it would cost more but to me as the composer for the film, thats an extra 1min of music to do that doesn't need to be score and can be anything I like! I love doing credit music my self. 

and if composers want to be more clever, when the credit part for musicians start rolling up with their names, they should always do something clever there...you know... _-)


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## Dominik Raab (Oct 18, 2012)

An argument against musicians' names in the credits could possibly be: "There's [Insert Orchestra Name Here] in the credits. That includes all of you!" However, I wonder if "Visual Effecty by Industrial Light and Magic" without any names has ever occured. Probably not. :D

I'd love to see musicians credited. Hell, their names aren't even in the OST booklet. Conductor? Yes. Synth programmer? Yes. The assistant to the assistant of Hans Zimmer's assistant? Sometimes. Solo musicians, ethnic instrument players? Yes. Recording engineer? Most of the time. Orchestra players? NOPE.

Most of the orchestras out there have an internet page with their current ensemble. "Soundtrack recorded with the Sandford Police Orchestra" points you to this list, but come on ... there are so many names. A hundred more of them wouldn't hurt anyone.


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## Reegs (Oct 18, 2012)

I saw Taken 2 this week. They listed the entire orchestra


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## Kejero (Oct 22, 2012)

Recently watched 'Lockout'. First time I ever saw the entire orchestra credited


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## Ganvai (Oct 22, 2012)

Dominik Raab @ 18th October 2012 said:


> Hell, their names aren't even in the OST booklet.



I remember "The Last Samurai" Soundtrack had all players listed.

Very difficult to decide if naming the orchestra is enough. Should be, right? If I'm visiting a classic-concert there are no players listed in the info or the commercials, also I think every player in an orchestra is owrth it to get called... on the other side, if you see a band playing, there is just the band-name called, not the members... but when you look into the booklet of a bandalbum, there is every member listed (most of the times)...

Very difficult to say and now my thoughts are spinning around that question, so I need to post this crazy, dancing, pink elefant o=?


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## choc0thrax (Oct 22, 2012)

Reegs @ Thu Oct 18 said:


> I saw Taken 2 this week. They listed the entire orchestra







Kejero @ Mon Oct 22 said:


> Recently watched 'Lockout'. First time I ever saw the entire orchestra credited




Clearly the solution to this problem is just getting a gig on a Maggie Grace film.


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## Daryl (Oct 22, 2012)

I think expecting composers to care about orchestra credits is naive, at best. After all, some composers don't even write their own music. If they are prepared to rip off fellow composers, I'm sure an orchestral musician's credit is right at the bottom of the list.

D


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## dannthr (Nov 2, 2012)

JJP @ Mon Oct 15 said:


> ryans @ Mon Oct 15 said:
> 
> 
> > No slight against musicians... but MANY people who work on films directly don't get credit in the "credits".
> ...



They may credit the catering company but not the chef.

Many Post-Houses, Animation-Houses, and other outsourced companies get credit as a company and not by the individuals.


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