# Greetings from LA County



## dannydawiz (Jan 29, 2017)

Hi guys. My name is Danny. I got started in music when I was 12 by playing guitar. I'm going to be turning 20 this year. Through self study I've taught myself music theory and have since then also picked up drums, bass, piano, and DJ'ing.

I love electronic genres, pop, rock, hiphop, and orchestra/film/game related stuff. I've been producing for 3years unprofessionally and am at an intermediate level when it comes to mixing.

Things that I struggle most with are arrangement and structure. It would be awesome if anyone could offer some advice there.


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## JohnG (Jan 29, 2017)

Welcome Danny. You can learn a lot about structure pretty fast. Are you talking about songs or orchestral stuff?

When I first started out I was surprised to discover how basic the overall road maps to many orchestral pieces were -- ABABA or something like that, often with a variant in the repetitions (a different key or a minor mode or something else). For songs, if you have been playing for eight years, you probably have a sense of some of those ideas.

Are you looking for information on arranging, orchestration? There are lots of guys and gals here who know about that.


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## dannydawiz (Jan 29, 2017)

JohnG said:


> Welcome Danny. You can learn a lot about structure pretty fast. Are you talking about songs or orchestral stuff?
> 
> When I first started out I was surprised to discover how basic the overall road maps to many orchestral pieces were -- ABABA or something like that, often with a variant in the repetitions (a different key or a minor mode or something else). For songs, if you have been playing for eight years, you probably have a sense of some of those ideas.
> 
> Are you looking for information on arranging, orchestration? There are lots of guys and gals here who know about that.



Hey john! I'm mostly referring to more song-related stuff. I'm familiar with basic songwriting structure (intro-verse-chorus-bridge etc....) but I often have trouble making the transitions between these sections sound natural. I'm good at coming up with chord progressions and themes for songs. I'm not very good however at finishing my tracks/ideas which is my greatest weakness. I'm great at creating 8 bar loops but i'm terrible at figuring out where to go from there. My music I feel has the tendency to sound to repetitive/loopy and I'm a bit stuck at the moment to be quite honest. I have a tendency towards perfectionism as well which is tough when trying to do everything independently. (Longest I've spent on a track was about 100hours for only 3minutes) 

I'm not very experienced when it comes to composing orchestral music but now that I've discovered this website I'm getting a bit obsessed with all the knowledge here that I've never heard of. Especially EIS which I definitely plan to someday take once I graduate college and make the money to afford it. Some of my biggest influences are film/game composers (Joe Hisaishi, Yoko Shimomura, Nobuo Uematsu, Danny Elfman) I would absolutely LOVE to learn how to arrange music for an orchestra. I've been writing mostly electronic music the past year blended together with a lot of acoustic elements. (Acoustic guitar, pianos, strings, bass, drums, synths) I'm comfortable with those instruments but not so much things like (woodwinds, brass, strings etc..) I understand the articulations for strings the best and although I use them extensively in my music I've never tried to program them for the realism required within midi mockups.

It would be AMAZING if I could get some pointers on how to write music for the string section and program realistic midi mockups. I'm obsessed with the sound of great strings arrangements and if I could incorporate that in my music then I would 100% do it. I own a copy of Spitfire Sable Strings but I definitely haven't been using it to it's full potential since I lack the knowledge for it.

EDIT: Woah. I just realized all the games and films you've worked on. You composed for XV? Thats AWESOME John! The final fantasy series is one of my favorites from a soundtrack perspective. Can't believe it took me this long to find this forum. It's like a hidden goldmine to me so far.


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## JohnG (Jan 30, 2017)

Hi Danny,

You know, the main thing is to have the love and feeling to compose. I think if you met Yoko Shimomura, she would say the same thing. Don't be too hard on yourself at first -- but keep pushing yourself all the same.

If you can't read music, that is something you will want to keep working on over time as a skill. Certainly some great players and composers -- Danny Elfman among them -- have written amazing music without being masters of orchestration or notation but most of the people you mentioned have received training. Mr. Elfman also knows a lot as a player and after all this time knows plenty about orchestration and scoring, even if he didn't at the outset.

You can self-study, using books, Youtube, and sometimes with private teachers. That is a pretty tough way to learn, however. Even the most self-disciplined person tends to fall into old grooves and habits, writing and composing in the same way over and over again.

There is also ThinkspaceEducation, an online composing / arranging / mixing instruction provider that offers courses you might find appealing and that could help take your work to the next level. You can check them out online -- they often have a free course offering or two available and the instructor is very funny and practical.

Of course there are more traditional classes available online as well, from Berklee and others. The only trouble there is that the dropout rate from most traditional online classes is very high. It requires a lot of focus and self-discipline to stick them out. For the average free MOOC, the dropout rate is over 90%.

Books on orchestration:

Samuel Adler: The Study of Orchestration (MUST get the MP3s or CDs with audio to accompany it)
Alexander publishing (online) course I hear is pretty good with tons of examples from the concert repertoire. I haven't taken it.

John Williams study scores -- there are a lot of these out there but be aware that some of them are small arrangements (wind quintet instead of full orchestra) so you have to look carefully at the title before buying. Whether you are a huge Star Wars fan or not, John Williams is one of the greatest orchestrators of the last 50 years, and one can learn a lot just by copying out 8 bars here and there of his music.

Kind regards,

John


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## JohnG (Jan 30, 2017)

I'm re-posting an old post from a member here called "poseur" about the process, and striving.

These are his words:

_reading, writing and their ability to speed
attendant analysis skills are important,
are certainly key & helpful.....
..... but, i think that developing one's ears
via focused listening, playing & occasionally brutal
self-criticism remains important, too.

maybe we can gain much by remembering this:
maybe it can bring us closer to stronger internalisations
of core musical concepts:
harmony, melody, rhythm, arr & orch:
over and above intellectualised analyses,
which certainly can lead to the lionisation of the
analytical approaches at the cost of something dear
to the root-impulse to create works of un-prefabricated
feeling.

that said,
i read & write, & still have some cause to sight-read..... under pressure, with the red-light on._

_it might be seen as important that our paths 
are founded on the bases of the creation of original works,
sincere works that offer
our own personal viewpoints and perspectives;
i think it can be dangerous to suggest that
good composition absolutely requires reading & writing,
first & foremost:
i don't believe that the basic, childlike impulse to compose should be overlooked as an absolutely primary factor
worthy of work & development._

_i also think that any instrument that one plays well 
--- the more, the merrier ---
can, indeed, be folded into the approach through
which we compose,
and can thereby enrich both our understanding
of our own writing, as well as its reach & potential: 
i suggest continuing to use those instruments in one's compositional flow, and pursuing them.

unlike many,
i don't believe there's a fundamental problem
with composing-by-ear.....
if,

a) you're increasing the capacity of your ear, and 
b) you simultaneously develop various methods of
intra-musical communication.....

..... including (but, not limited-to) reading & writing. _

_..... seems like what's primary to music of value is that 
1) we actually have something to say, and
3) we can say it.

so, yeah:
do learn to read & write, so that you can study & analyse scores, & cmprehend harmony & rhythm.....
but, listen more & with greater concentration,
sing more melodies (alone, without any instrument to hand), and continue to play all your instruments
with musical vigor:
internalise the feelings of
isolated pieces of music.
everything you learn

--- no matter how, or in what chronological order --- 

it's all important. 
sorry for the potentially useless babble;
i'm tired.....

from "Poseur"_


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## Sebastianmu (Feb 3, 2017)

Danny, I also think you might learn something from one or two of Mike Verta's master classes, esp. Composition 1 + 2 and Orchestration. They are only 30 bucks each and might be just the right thing to pick you up where you are right now..?

Link


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## dannydawiz (Feb 3, 2017)

Thank you so much john for giving me the direction. If I could afford to take those courses then I would do so but unfortunately I'm still a college student. I'm DEFINITELY using your tip on studying scores though. I got my hands on some John Williams scores combined with a bunch of other composers and I must say that it makes life a lot easier when it comes to figuring out what each individual part is doing and how it contributes to the whole. Determining it's function and etc...



Sebastianmu said:


> Danny, I also think you might learn something from one or two of Mike Verta's master classes, esp. Composition 1 + 2 and Orchestration. They are only 30 bucks each and might be just the right thing to pick you up where you are right now..?
> 
> Link



Sebastian. I actually am going through Mike Vertas orchestration 1 course right now. If you've taken it as well would you mind if I PMed you to ask questions about it? I'm a little confused about some of the parts where he talks about melody, harmony, and bass in terms of them being in a specific order. (Ex: if the bass is in the contrabass then melody can be in strings but if bass is in tuba then the melody can't be in violin 1s and etc...)


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## rJames (Feb 3, 2017)

Hi Danny. I have a much looser approach to composing than most here...I think. 
I took half of the EIS offerings and my approach comes from that and also from my desire to be unique. (Not saying I achieve that though)
Also pretty much self-taught. 
Regarding loops and getting/transitioning to the next loop to form a song. This is antithetical to the way I work so I don't have much for you there. But I'd say to listen to others in that style that you want to emulate and see what they do. I like to think that almost any transition works if you lead up to it. No matter the chord change, if you have some melodic lines that lead you there, you can make it work. 
Sometimes, if I have an awkward transition, I'll just add a line some where that leads up or down stepwise into a chord tone of the new chord. It sounds like I meant for it to be there so it makes it work. 
Regarding orchestral: I like to think of the sections as to their function. Flutes are good for certain functions and brass has its function etc. of course you can always change up these functions for effect. But if you are playing a bucolic scene don't start with a tuba!
Obviously drums are rhythm but every instrument plays rhythm. Ostinatos, woodwind arpeggios, brass chords in a rhythm. These things play against and with your melody to make your music. Melody seemingly plays less of a role these days but maybe just a different role. Melody is not necessarily a Henry Mancini solo line but can also be a Hans Zimmer "Man of Steel" theme. 
So I write driven by melody. I don't ever think about chords until I am trying to fill in the rhythm with the orchestral sections. If you have a melody and a bass and rhythm, the rest falls into place. I think the music writes itself once you have an idea and then you move towards it. Depending on the cue though, it might be driven by percussion as the motivating factor, melody of lesser import. Or the rhythm could be the motivator. Each inspiration needs a different approach. Everything needs to start with an idea or an inkling of the final product. Ok enough rambling. 
Ron


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