# Orchestral Tools - SINE Player - new update available—version 1.0.5



## OrchestralTools

*Orchestral Tools is proud to announce the new OT Sample Player.*

Modern sampling philosophies were built into a revolutionary software ecosystem.

The new OT Sample Player Overview


OT Shop Overview


Stay tuned for more infos soon!


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## Floris

This looks really promising! Any approximate time-frame on when we can see this in action?


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## LamaRose

OT sees the future... which is now and which is great for composers.


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## korruptkey

Celli - Trailer Accented Sus, where is this today?


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## zimm83

Where is the ostinatum???? Not in ???? Hummm......Future update....?


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## Land of Missing Parts

The up-to-40% off bundles, with a purchasing system that credits you for collections you already own, that's good news as well. 

Maybe it can be considered a bit like bringing back the 2018 Black Friday sales on an ongoing basis, but this time making it more workable for people that already own some of the libraries.


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## KallumS

I think I love you @OrchestralTools


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## OleJoergensen

You have been busy! Congratulation Orchestraltools!


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## EvilDragon

Any new sampler that shows up will live or die on its performance vs Kontakt, not to mention all the various compatibility issues with different hardware and different DAWs. And so far the only one that has matched its performance is Vienna's own engine.


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## MartinH.

OrchestralTools said:


> Stay tuned for more infos soon!



What kind of DRM (if any) is this going to use? Will it work on offline DAWs?


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## Wolf68

I'm impressed. Looking Forward to more Details what the new sample Player can do. and I am looking Forward to download the Content of my interest (strings and choir) of ARK 4!


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## Land of Missing Parts

It's nice that they're thinking about the design aesthetic, but the best sampler design is the one you can operate from your DAW without ever needing to open the instrument.


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## jbuhler

Land of Missing Parts said:


> The up-to-40% off bundles, with a purchasing system that credits you for collections you already own, that's good news as well.
> 
> Maybe it can be considered a bit like bringing back the 2018 Black Friday sales on an ongoing basis, but this time making it more workable for people that already own some of the libraries.


Makes me wonder if I’d be better off waiting for bundle pricing on Ark 4.


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## Land of Missing Parts

jbuhler said:


> Makes me wonder if I’d be better off waiting for bundle pricing on Ark 4.


Or just buying the parts you want. *cough cough* strings...


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## SoundChris

Maybe it is just me ... but whenever it comes to new samplers I become very sceptic. I understand that it might be expensive for developers to use and pay for Kontakt. But as a user I never had any issues with Kontakt and so I totally trust it. When a new sampler appears I tend to wait for quite a long time and check out the reaktions of the crowd ... until I finally can be convinced to give it a try.


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## EvilDragon

I don't think it's the licensing fees that are the problem at all. Hiring an orchestra and then paying for a really good studio/recording room is waaaaaaaaaay more expensive than that (how much does one hour at AIR or Teldex cost? One day of recording is probably costing more than the encoding fees for Kontakt Player - this is not the problem).


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## kevthurman

SoundChris said:


> Maybe it is just me ... but whenever it comes to new samplers I become very sceptic. I understand that it might be expensive for developers to use and pay for Kontakt. But as a user I never had any issues with Kontakt and so I totally trust it. When a new sampler appears I tend to wait for quite a long time and check out the reaktions of the crowd ... until I finally can be convinced to give it a try.


I think it's more so that they can roll out their new store and have a better ecosystem to take advantage of the new tech they have available.


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## Mason

Wanna use this only for the sci-fi sounds in the sampler :D


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## jbuhler

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Or just buying the parts you want. *cough cough* strings...


They’ve increased administrative complexity about a million-fold. There are real costs to everything they are doing in an industry where prices are still in decline. They don’t have a huge back catalogue to ensure a regular income stream. The NKS sale in retrospect looks like an attempt to raise cash to finance this move. 

I can’t say that I think today’s announcement makes much sense, but little OT has done recently has made much business sense to me. I do hope they know what they are doing because I like their products but the new administrative overhead they are taking on might leave them starved for cash.


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## Royosho

I see a world where instead of charging four times the price of the exact same library because of licensing fees, companies provide their own samplers to play their sample libraries and offer more affordably priced virtual instruments for people who's entire paychecks go to rent and bills and for whom saving even 20 a month is an extreme challenge. Fingers crossed.


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## kevthurman

Royosho said:


> I see a world where instead of charging four times the price of the exact same library because of licensing fees, companies provide their own samplers to play their sample libraries and offer more affordably priced virtual instruments for people who's entire paychecks go to rent and bills and for whom saving even 20 a month is an extreme challenge. Fingers crossed.


Not to mention a sampler tailor-made to work with a given developer's scripts allows more ambitious new sampling tech from devs.


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## MarcelM

Royosho said:


> I see a world where instead of charging four times the price of the exact same library because of licensing fees, companies provide their own samplers to play their sample libraries and offer more affordably priced virtual instruments for people who's entire paychecks go to rent and bills and for whom saving even 20 a month is an extreme challenge. Fingers crossed.



i dont think prices will be lowered. in the end they are not our friends and doing it for fun. they are a company which aims for profit, so i doubt prices will be much lower for upcoming releases.

i actually love the modular approach... i actually had the idea a few month back here on vi, so i guess it was already in the works and i had a right guess


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## korruptkey

Royosho said:


> I see a world where instead of charging four times the price of the exact same library because of licensing fees, companies provide their own samplers to play their sample libraries and offer more affordably priced virtual instruments for people who's entire paychecks go to rent and bills and for whom saving even 20 a month is an extreme challenge. Fingers crossed.



You realize samplers don't just appear out of thin air right?


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## Royosho

korruptkey said:


> You realize samplers don't just appear out of thin air right?


no, but haters obviously do.


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## muziksculp

I hope the new OT-Sample Player GUI is scaleable/resizeable.


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## SoNowWhat?

OK. Well, I like the look of the ability to break up the libraries and purchase just a part of a larger collection. Dependent on pricing I could see me taking advantage of that several times.

The new sampler, undecided for now. Keeping an open mind. Could be great. Need more information. I do think that having multiple sampler options in the market is a good thing. Kontakt/NI has done a good job so far but I guess they could disappear at any point due to circumstances beyond our control and having alternatives is good for users. Wishing OT every success with their new venture.


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## Geoff Grace

EvilDragon said:


> Any new sampler that shows up will live or die on its performance vs Kontakt, not to mention all the various compatibility issues with different hardware and different DAWs. And so far the only one that has matched its performance is Vienna's own engine.


These are good points, and of course time will tell.

As for performance vs Kontakt, there will be a wide variety of areas to compare. The most obvious two are RAM and CPU hit. The Orchestral Tools Sample Player feature set seems to indicate that—at least as far as mic positions are concerned—RAM will be considerably reduced via its Mic Position Merging feature. It looks to be a bit of a time hit though, similar to freezing tracks but taking longer. Another possible performance improvement might come in the area of sample transitions, if the Auto Volume Scaling and Core Implemented Legato features work well.

On the downside, there will be a learning curve; and it's likely that there will be bugs to work out, despite the rigorous testing Orchestral Tools plans to undertake. Kontakt may turn out to be more CPU friendly and offer other performance features that OT Sample Player won't have, possibly including a smaller RAM hit under some instances. (Will OT Sample Player offer a purge unused samples feature, for example?) Kontakt is also likely to be editable in a wider variety of ways.

Comparing Kontakt to a yet-to-be-released program is full of pitfalls, so I won't go further down the rabbit hole at this point. Interesting times ahead though...

Best,

Geoff


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## dogdad

Looks really nice. Wondering if it will be compatible with the older version of BWW (don’t have the newer release). Also, love the idea of buying just the instruments you want. Really interesting and exciting development.


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## jamwerks

One of the most important reasons for doing your own player is copy protection.

On the video it looked quite advanced, maybe more so than the SF player.

It should be easier for them to implement their own advanced technology that maybe wasn't possible or difficult on Kontakt.

Layers is a great idea, everyone will obviously download it and learn it for free. In my experience it only takes a few hours to understand a program like this.

The competition for SF & VSL just got a little stiffer!


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## Simon Ravn

Looks really interesting! I just hope their new sampler is multi timbral. Spitfire's is a pain for not having that ability.


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## KallumS

SoNowWhat? said:


> OK. Well, I like the look of the ability to break up the libraries and purchase just a part of a larger collection.



I think this is the biggest thing to come out of this announcement for me. In theory you can just buy instruments/ articulations as and when you need them instead of whole collections. Think of it like buying individual songs versus albums.


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## Wunderhorn

Nice to see the development of something new.
However, I have to remind that it took years until things were working smoothly in the Kontakt eco-system, PLAY also took many years to become usable and still is not on par with Kontakt. I hope while this is allowed to take its time to mature we will have the option for Kontakt. Having been a guinea pig before I won't do it anymore (I am nodding over to you, Spitfire, too). "Ain't nobody got time fort that" ...


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## fretti

my understanding is that you can buy e.g. Violins 1 of Berlin Strings, and Trumpet 1 of Berlin Brass and then decide what Mic you want to download. But I didn‘t get that they offer one to buy single Articulations or Mics?!
Did they say this (and I missed that part)?


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## Shagal

For us customers AND from a business point of view for OT, the possibility to buy single instruments is huge! Opens up a whole new market segment for them.
If their player is working fine, I'll be happy to use it. AD uses this concept of combined player, shop, update center aso and I like how it works. Looking forward to it!


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## Akarin

muziksculp said:


> I hope the new OT-Sample Player GUI is scaleable/resizeable.



Purgeable, mostly.


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## Saxer

I'm happy for every move away from Kontakt.

First of all it's the NI eco system that is standardizing the way how to work. Keyboard lights to show the key switches might be handy but it also removes the need to think about the own individual work flow. Do I want to use key switches at all? When I watch their newer commercial videos where 'artists' put together snippets from different libraries it feels like convenient food in an expensive restaurant. Everyone can cook: open the package und put the content into the microwave. It's the removement of individuality. Even the creaters become consumers. Buy your creativity.

When everything is standardized developement has finished. So every movement in another direction is welcome! I don't want to say that Kontakt is a bad sampler or kind of evil. I use it all the time. But having different options is never bad.


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## Pietro

With every new engine, I'm quite worried about performance/stability and memory usage. Since I use instrument tracks in Cubase, rather than rack instruments, this is quite a big deal.

It's easy for early build of software to "forget" about things like loading 200 instances in a project and not using 20GB of RAM.

- Piotr


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## osum

Pietro said:


> Since I use instrument tracks in Cubase, rather than rack instruments, this is quite a big deal.



This. In the past I used rack instruments and midi tracks but for several reasons I switched to using only instrument tracks. It's way more convenient for me and the only disadvantage are larger cubase project files and longer save times but I can live with that. In fact a lot of the composers using Cubase just use instrument tracks these days as far as I've seen. (if they don't need to use ve ensemble etc of course)

(Off-topic) @Pietro , I just realized you also worked on the Blood & Wine soundtrack for Witcher 3. I'm currently plaing it on my second playthrough, what a coincidence :D Love the soundtrack.


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## MartinH.

osum said:


> (Off-topic) @Pietro , I just realized you also worked on the Blood & Wine soundtrack for Witcher 3. I'm currently plaing it on my second playthrough, what a coincidence :D Love the soundtrack.





Pietro said:


> It's easy for early build of software to "forget" about things like loading 200 instances in a project and not using 20GB of RAM.



(offtopic: Bulletstorm is one of the few soundtracks that I often took with me on my MP3 player. Kudos to you and the rest of the team!)

I agree about the performance considerations and loading many instances. E.g. in Kontakt you can load 10 instances of different patches that share the same samplepool into one Kontakt instance, without it loading 10x the data into RAM. It's quite efficient in that regard.

I wonder if their player is going to be using some kind of runtime interpreted scripting language, or if the scripts are compiled ahead of time into more high performance native code, and what the implications of that will be for performance, updates etc..


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## Pietro

osum said:


> (Off-topic) @Pietro , I just realized you also worked on the Blood & Wine soundtrack for Witcher 3. I'm currently plaing it on my second playthrough, what a coincidence :D Love the soundtrack.





MartinH. said:


> (offtopic: Bulletstorm is one of the few soundtracks that I often took with me on my MP3 player. Kudos to you and the rest of the team!



Many thanks, guys! 

And to follow up the specific RAM matter, Kontakt is handling that fine, but it could be better. PLAY actually does better in that regard, as it eats up less RAM per instance. Empty instance, I mean. Add Komplete plugin to that, and you get quite a bit of RAM pretty much wasted :/...

- Piotr


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## muziksculp

Akarin said:


> Purgeable, mostly.



Not familiar with this term, does this mean the GUI is scalable, we can re-size it to our needs/taste ?


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## prodigalson

I hope OT are planning on dropping this new sampler/webstore ecosystem soon as they can be sure that only a fraction of people are going to buy new releases until they do so, knowing that they can simply wait and buy just the instruments they want.

Wish I had known this was coming before buying Ark 4. Love the strings and choir, kind of ok with the winds/brass...absolutely no need whatsoever for an unprocessed 3 kickdrum ensemble.


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## EvilDragon

muziksculp said:


> Not familiar with this term, does this mean the GUI is scalable, we can re-size it to our needs/taste ?



Purgeable would relate to samples, as in purging things from memory.


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## muziksculp

EvilDragon said:


> Purgeable would relate to samples, as in purging things from memory.



Thanks for the feedback. Yes, I know what that term means, but I was asking about the scalability/re-sizing the GUI, which has nothing to do with Purging samples from RAM. I thought the term applied to the GUI, and I'm not aware about it. So, my question has not been answered yet by OT.


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## EvilDragon

Obviously, nobody knows that info yet because OT didn't divulge it yet. It's anyone's guess at this point.


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## muziksculp

EvilDragon said:


> Obviously, nobody knows that info yet because OT didn't divulge it yet. It's anyone's guess at this point.



Yeah... I guess we have to wait until OT release more details about if the GUI is scalable, and other detail of their new Sample Player.


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## Jimmy Hellfire

I like the idea of the custom sampler and think that the new, more modular approach to offering their libraries will bring them many new customers.


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## Olfirf

The thing with this new payer is really easy IMO ...
It clear looks like it has some potential, given the features provided that are not possible in Kontakt. Yet, the whole thing will work or fail, based on the OT player managing to deliver ...
... the same efficiency as Kontakt.
... background loading of the samples to shorten start up times.
... not lack any Kontakt feature that might be important to many.
The last part is complicated, unfortunately! For example, I tend to use Kontakt multi scripts to create some custom key switching solutions or repair some bugs in scripting. One example: If you send one Midi CC to a Capsule instrument (just one midi command, like CC 56 with a value of 127), this midi command is ignored by capsule. Probably, this is by design, as older fader boxes sometimes send values without touching them from time to time. That is why I suppose, they programmed Capsule to only process CCs, if at least two values got sent. It might just be a bug as well ... I am not sure!
However, this is a problem for me, as I want to send all values as a bulk message, as they are set on my Lemur controller app. Kontakt enables me to fit things like that, by finding out what the problem is. It is tedious at times and I hate it!  But I have to face the fact that almost no developer ever did everything to my liking in their scripting. Some features are locked, like certain CC parameters or sometimes key switches. If there is no multi script available, I need everything to be user definable and also CC-controllable. Otherwise, I cannot see how I could fit a different player to my workflow.


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## theStyg

Now this I can get into. After buying Ark I & II during the NI sale, gotta say, they're on the path of having me as a regular customer!


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## erica-grace

Sorry if I missed it

Have they said if it will install on W7, or did they pull a SFA, and is this W10 only?


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## MartinH.

erica-grace said:


> Sorry if I missed it
> 
> Have they said if it will install on W7, or did they pull a SFA, and is this W10 only?



Excellent point! I keep forgetting there are things that don't run on Win 7 because they are relatively rare. If it doesn't run on Win 7 it's also useless for me.


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## germancomponist

Honestly, I've always been waiting for someone to present a better sampler than the NI Kontakt Sampler. Not because I'm angry or similar, but because I know that there will always be progress. That is a law of nature. I'm curious what we are offered.


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## tim727

The ability to buy single instruments from larger libs would be amazing. I'd love to get the strings and choir from MA4 for instance but have literally no interest in any of the rest of it. It also seems that they are going toward a more loyalty-based pricing system ... almost more analogous to FabFilter. A very welcomed change indeed!


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## muziksculp

Will all the previous Kontakt versions of OT Berlin Series Libraries become available in the new OT Sample Player format ?


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## EvilDragon

They said yes, eventually. Should watch the keynote


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## muziksculp

EvilDragon said:


> They said yes, eventually. Should watch the keynote



Thanks. That's good news. 

Actually I attended the event, but wasn't clear on this important detail.


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## Pudge

So excited I got varicose veins after watching the presentation.


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## desert

Can we have an update to Capsule as well?


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## ScoringFilm

EvilDragon said:


> Any new sampler that shows up will live or die on its performance vs Kontakt, not to mention all the various compatibility issues with different hardware and different DAWs. And so far the only one that has matched its performance is Vienna's own engine.


Absolutely agree with this statement; you only have to look at the relationship with long standing customers of East West when PLAY was released (not inciting an argument, just stating fact!). Also interesting to see that Spitfire are leaning the same way. I guess it's just pure business and economics; why pay someone else for something you can do yourself - ultimately these are profit making commercial companies.

Personally I think it's a shame as I like the workflow and resources management of having all my libs in one sampler that I have grown to understand and know how to use.

Also got to say that Capsule is not the most efficient of sample management engines; hope that the new OT Sampler doesn't use the same resource hogging process.

J


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## EvilDragon

ScoringFilm said:


> I guess it's just pure business and economics; why pay someone else for something you can do yourself - ultimately these are profit making commercial companies.



But I'm not sure economics have a play in here. Developing a sampler from scratch requires a shitton of resources and lots of manhours... I am not exactly sure that Kontakt Player encoding fees end up costing more than paying for ground-up development of an entirely new thing.


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## MartinH.

EvilDragon said:


> But I'm not sure economics have a play in here. Developing a sampler from scratch requires a shitton of resources and lots of manhours... I am not exactly sure that Kontakt Player encoding fees end up costing more than paying for ground-up development of an entirely new thing.



Maybe it's meant as a tool to either negotiate better fees or ensure that NI doesn't extort them by raising the fees in the future?
I would just abandon the Kontakt player compatibility and sell regular full Kontakt requiring libraries like other devs do. Or maybe they're keeping the true reasons in form of revolutionary features that really do challenge Kontakt secret till release to give NI the least possible time to catch up?


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## Fry777

More than the fees, I'd say they're banking on people spontaneously buying part of a library on the spot, via their interface, when realising they need x or y instrument, without having to review the entire content of a library to check if all of it would be relevant to their use.
I'd say it's a good plan... if pricing of these individual parts is done right.


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## lokotus

EvilDragon said:


> But I'm not sure economics have a play in here. Developing a sampler from scratch requires a shitton of resources and lots of manhours... I am not exactly sure that Kontakt Player encoding fees end up costing more than paying for ground-up development of an entirely new thing.


economics always have a play- I think you describe short time thinking. In the long term you always win if the software is good and you can do custom things for your own samples...


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## Mike Greene

EvilDragon said:


> But I'm not sure economics have a play in here. Developing a sampler from scratch requires a shitton of resources and lots of manhours... I am not exactly sure that Kontakt Player encoding fees end up costing more than paying for ground-up development of an entirely new thing.


This is correct. Hendrik and I were "talking shop" here at NAMM, and since I've also toyed with the idea of developing my own player, I asked him about their reasons and process. He specifically said NI fees were not a factor (or at least not much of a factor), which makes sense, because:
a. NI fees are actually pretty reasonable. They could get expensive back in the day, but the new structure they implemented a few years ago is very fair. I've never heard a developer complain.
b. They spent a TON developing this player. I doubt they'd ever recoup based solely on NI fee savings.

This was all specifically about things Kontakt can't do. A number of features, as well as the new purchasing options. Brilliant IMO.


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## lokotus

Mike Greene said:


> This is correct. Hendrik and I were "talking shop" here at NAMM, and since I've also toyed with the idea of developing my own player, I asked him about their reasons and process. He specifically said NI fees were not a factor (or at least not much of a factor), which makes sense, because:
> a. NI fees are actually pretty reasonable. They could get expensive back in the day, but the new structure they implemented a few years ago is very fair. I've never heard a developer complain.
> b. They spent a TON developing this player. I doubt they'd ever recoup based solely on NI fee savings.
> 
> This was all specifically about things Kontakt can't do. A number of features, as well as the new purchasing options. Brilliant IMO.



at the end of the day if after 10 years it still more expensive to update your own sampler vs paying fees to NI that is one thing. But when your overall profit grows because your own sampler has awesome features and workflows that sell is better over the competition then you win long term...


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## MartinH.

lokotus said:


> But when your overall profit grows because your own sampler has awesome features and workflows that sell is better over the competition then you win long term...



It's a big "if" though...




Mike Greene said:


> This is correct. Hendrik and I were "talking shop" here at NAMM, and since I've also toyed with the idea of developing my own player, I asked him about their reasons and process. He specifically said NI fees were not a factor (or at least not much of a factor), which makes sense, because:
> a. NI fees are actually pretty reasonable. They could get expensive back in the day, but the new structure they implemented a few years ago is very fair. I've never heard a developer complain.
> b. They spent a TON developing this player. I doubt they'd ever recoup based solely on NI fee savings.
> 
> This was all specifically about things Kontakt can't do. A number of features, as well as the new purchasing options. Brilliant IMO.


Just wanted to say how much I appreciate you always sharing your knowledge and perspective as a developer with us, thank you Mike!


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## valexnerfarious

Olfirf said:


> The thing with this new payer is really easy IMO ...
> It clear looks like it has some potential, given the features provided that are not possible in Kontakt. Yet, the whole thing will work or fail, based on the OT player managing to deliver ...
> ... the same efficiency as Kontakt.
> ... background loading of the samples to shorten start up times.
> ... not lack any Kontakt feature that might be important to many.
> The last part is complicated, unfortunately! For example, I tend to use Kontakt multi scripts to create some custom key switching solutions or repair some bugs in scripting. One example: If you send one Midi CC to a Capsule instrument (just one midi command, like CC 56 with a value of 127), this midi command is ignored by capsule. Probably, this is by design, as older fader boxes sometimes send values without touching them from time to time. That is why I suppose, they programmed Capsule to only process CCs, if at least two values got sent. It might just be a bug as well ... I am not sure!
> However, this is a problem for me, as I want to send all values as a bulk message, as they are set on my Lemur controller app. Kontakt enables me to fit things like that, by finding out what the problem is. It is tedious at times and I hate it!  But I have to face the fact that almost no developer ever did everything to my liking in their scripting. Some features are locked, like certain CC parameters or sometimes key switches. If there is no multi script available, I need everything to be user definable and also CC-controllable. Otherwise, I cannot see how I could fit a different player to my workflow.


I could not agree with you more..


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## Geoff Grace

Mike Greene said:


> Hendrik and I were "talking shop" here at NAMM, and since I've also toyed with the idea of developing my own player, I asked him about their reasons and process. He specifically said NI fees were not a factor (or at least not much of a factor), which makes sense, because:
> a. NI fees are actually pretty reasonable. They could get expensive back in the day, but the new structure they implemented a few years ago is very fair. I've never heard a developer complain.
> b. They spent a TON developing this player. I doubt they'd ever recoup based solely on NI fee savings.
> 
> This was all specifically about things Kontakt can't do. A number of features, as well as the new purchasing options. Brilliant IMO.


These features include Auto Volume Scaling to enable legato transition and release samples to blend better, High Res Resampler, Mic Position Merging, Core Implemented Legato, and Advanced Articulation Management.

It's worth adding that you can't create a truly free instrument or library on the Kontakt platform: either the manufacturer has to pay licensing fees for it to work on the free player or the customer has to buy a copy of Kontakt to use an otherwise free library that's given away without a financial loss to the manufacturer. One way or another, someone has to give money to Native Instruments for this "free" library.

I hope Orchestral Tools succeeds with its stated goals for this player as we will benefit from the added realism and any freebies they decide to release (such as Layers, for example).

Best,

Geoff


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## EvilDragon

MartinH. said:


> ensure that NI doesn't extort them by raising the fees in the future?



NI has actually been *reducing* the fees, since they want as many devs in NKS ecosystem.



lokotus said:


> In the long term you always win if the software is good and you can do custom things for your own samples...



That's a big "if". See PLAY. 



Geoff Grace said:


> High Res Resampler



Kontakt in fact has this, three different resampling modes...


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## wst3

Of course there is a financial component in their decisions! If OT did not figure out a way to profit from these developments they won't be around much longer - and I'd never bet against them, in addition to being quite musical, they strike me as people who care about their customers - and that is a great way to stay in business.

I doubt that the NI fees are a big component, but I think some of the features could be tailored specifically for their libraries, or rather their libraries can be tailored for the features, or... both?

And the in-app purchasing thing is absolutely brilliant. Especially as they are going to make purchases at the instrument level possible. In fact I think that might be about the coolest new feature I've heard about in a long time, and it really has nothing to do with sound, or play-ability, or any of the factors we normally consider. Brilliant.

As much as I hate to tell folks how to run their businesses, and as much as I know how difficult it could be, I do hope they provide a "complete the package" or "complete the bundle" function - although I would not want to be the one to try to manage it<G>!

I do not think that the OT player will replace Kontakt, but it might just encourage NI to do some more development, and that's good for all of us - even OT!


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## Floris

I can imagine it also being worth it in the long run to not have to rely on any of NI's actions. Even though I don't see Kontakt 'dying' anytime soon: if you're more independent from them you're always in the clear if anything happens. Having your own architecture in place, you can fix things you want to see fixed and add features you care about being added.
Same with their own sample edit tool they showed in the presentation.

Besides, they seem to be wanting to open up to different genres of music based on their presentation: here it's also very valuable to now have to drag new customers through a big price hill of getting full Kontakt before being able to use a potentional non-player lib. Kontakt is really the main VST for orchestral music, but not as overwhelming in other genres.


----------



## TheSteven

wst3 said:


> I doubt that the NI fees are a big component,



I really hope so but you never know. I've worked with some very persuasive programmers who claimed they could transmute lead into gold in _only _XX amount of time.
Case in point i worked for a company years back that had a legacy app written in VB3 and some wondurkin convinced the CEO that he could create a C 32bit version of the app in 3 months. After a year they pulled the plug and abandoned it - they forgot the programming maxim that the last 10% of any major project takes over 90% of the time.


----------



## muziksculp

I'm guessing that not only the new, and upcoming OT libraries, but also all existing OT Berlin Orchestra libraries will attain an improved Legato functionality once ported to the new Sample Player, compared to their Kontakt version Legato.


----------



## RightOnTime

One thing nobody has mentioned yet - having their own sample player may potentially mean it's possible to do rental/subscription services if he licensing system is robust enough?

I admire OT libraries immensely but the cost has been prohibitive for me as a hobbyist. Would love to see them do a Composer Cloud-esque subscription plan!


----------



## dariusofwest

RightOnTime said:


> One thing nobody has mentioned yet - having their own sample player may potentially mean it's possible to do rental/subscription services if he licensing system is robust enough?
> 
> I admire OT libraries immensely but the cost has been prohibitive for me as a hobbyist. Would love to see them do a Composer Cloud-esque subscription plan!



+1, also looking forward to thier Single Instrument options


----------



## Parsifal666

RightOnTime said:


> One thing nobody has mentioned yet - having their own sample player may potentially mean it's possible to do rental/subscription services if he licensing system is robust enough?
> 
> I admire OT libraries immensely but the cost has been prohibitive for me as a hobbyist. Would love to see them do a Composer Cloud-esque subscription plan!



I guess like EW I'd be a little prickly about in the beginning, but I can't help get a gut feeling subscription services might become the norm in the future...perhaps near future.

I could be wrong.


----------



## kevthurman

Parsifal666 said:


> I guess like EW I'd be a little prickly about in the beginning, but I can't help get a gut feeling subscription services might become the norm in the future...perhaps near future.
> 
> I could be wrong.


This seems the case in most industries these days... why not this one too? Who knows.


----------



## MartinH.

It's your choice, all you gotta do is not buy into the sub model when a new company offers it. Unlike Adobe and Autodesk they are nowhere near a position to force you if you don't want this. But if everyone eats up the sub model without thinking about longterm consequences, you'll soon be enslaved to monthly payments - the height of which are subject to change and solely decided by the developers - and you'll have to keep paying for as long as you want to be able to edit projects you did with sub-only libs. Personally I'd much rather buy stuff and own it forever. Subs would be too cost prohibitive for hobbyists like myself. But hey, I always say I want to stop buying new stuff anyway, a sub-only model would make that so much easier...


----------



## jononotbono

Mike Greene said:


> This was all specifically about things Kontakt can't do. A number of features, as well as the new purchasing options. Brilliant IMO.



Man, you saying this is exciting.


----------



## Ihnoc

I'm still excited, but no updates after nearing 2 months since announcing... Any news?


----------



## Shad0wLandsUK

For those who may not have watched through the whole Seminar with info on the Sampler, but would like to (sad like me) here you go:

Be sure to grab a cuppa... its a long one


----------



## prodigalson

Watching the player presentation again, it just gets me really excited. It seems like OT are doing this the right way, thinking creatively about what their player needs to do to for their instruments to set it apart from kontakt while also including core features that most users already rely on in kontakt (if not the scripting aspect). They're not considering this first release an MVP and waiting for the user base to tell them what they need to change. For example, EACH INSTRUMENT CAN ACCESS SEPARATE MIDI CHANNEL INPUTS AND MICS CAN BE ROUTED TO DIFFERENT OUTPUTS ON v.1.0!! 

And all the while, showing that you can do all of this while still embracing a modern, sleek, minimalist UX. 

High hopes here!


----------



## dcoscina

Yes I cannot wait to see what this new player does. OT is firing on all cylinders these days!


----------



## lucianogiacomozzi

Now this is exciting!!! Nice and sleek but functional and logical.


----------



## Rey

so when is the player going to be out. also have they released their free orchestra library?


----------



## Jdiggity1

I would not consider the timing of their announcement to be indicative of a release date for the new sampler. Combined with NAMM, and other announcements made such as Junkie XL Brass, it was simply their best opportunity within 2019 to make the biggest splash.
I don't have much authority on this other than what I might have overheard at the OT booth at NAMM, but I'd be more expecting a Q3-Q4 release for the new player and store environment.


----------



## kmm08

After watching the Keynote on the new sample player, it does have some interesting ideas behind it. Yet, not quite sure if it will actually be an improvement or not over working with Kontakt.
I can’t say I really have much love for NI these days, especially after doing away with customer support for their products (posting on a community board is not quite the same thing as having technical support). The good thing about using something like Kontakt though is that you can access all your libraries from different companies in the same place, using one single interface. EW Play was terrible and why I stopped using there products. I still use Vienna Ensemble Pro, but don’t use much of their libraries any longer either because don’t like having to load up and use their own custom interface. It’s just not convenient for me, especially since I use and layer many different libraries.

Another odd thing I noticed in the video, was that when loading instruments, the interface automatically generated new midi channels and keyswitches. I hope you can either override this option, or save your own presets. Why would anyone who has taken the time to customize their keyswitches to match their workflow want an interface that changes the keyswitch assignments every time you load an instrument. Since I save all my Kontakt multis keyswitches to be consistent with each other, I would definitely not want an interface that randomly re-assigns its own every time.


----------



## Dr.Quest

kmm08 said:


> After watching the Keynote on the new sample player, it does have some interesting ideas behind it. Yet, not quite sure if it will actually be an improvement or not over working with Kontakt.
> I would definitely not want an interface that randomly re-assigns its own every time.


Since it's not out we cant't really say but OT is a very professional company and I seriously doubt they wouldn't allow customizing. Seriously. They come up with smart things. I'm sure this player will be another smart tool. IMHO.


----------



## kmm08

Dr.Quest said:


> Since it's not out we cant't really say but OT is a very professional company and I seriously doubt they wouldn't allow customizing. Seriously. They come up with smart things. I'm sure this player will be another smart tool. IMHO.


Yes, that's what I'm hoping for as well.


----------



## vienthousiast

Dr.Quest said:


> Since it's not out we cant't really say but OT is a very professional company and I seriously doubt they wouldn't allow customizing. Seriously. They come up with smart things. I'm sure this player will be another smart tool.


They are already plenty of customization functions in their capsule thing on Kontakt.
Obviously they shouldn't reduce those when it comes to their new player... As long as they want their clients to be happy.


----------



## Will Blackburn

Pietro said:


> With every new engine, I'm quite worried about performance/stability and memory usage. Since I use instrument tracks in Cubase, rather than rack instruments, this is quite a big deal.
> 
> It's easy for early build of software to "forget" about things like loading 200 instances in a project and not using 20GB of RAM.
> 
> - Piotr



Pietro, are you saying Instrument tracks are more CPU/RAM efficient than rack in Cubase?


----------



## Pietro

It's the opposite, in case of RAM. But instrument tracks are much, much more convenient.

- Piotr


----------



## ProfoundSilence

A few questions now that we're at the half way mark of 2019.

One, can we expect existing libraries to already be added by the time it's released?
-does this include expansions

Two,
will we still have features like cross fade between articulations - as well as the ability to crossfade between different libraries? i.e. articulations from expansion A of berlin strings and the main library?

edit: an example of crossfade between different libraries


----------



## AEF

Sorry for bumping this and getting people excited, but I'd love to get some more explanation into the concepts of "auto volume scaling", "core implemented legato", and the articulation manager.

Looking forward to this release, and certain improvements to already owned libraries via this new player would have an impact on continuing to build up my berlin orchestra template.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

AEF said:


> Sorry for bumping this and getting people excited, but I'd love to get some more explanation into the concepts of "auto volume scaling", "core implemented legato", and the articulation manager.
> 
> Looking forward to this release, and certain improvements to already owned libraries via this new player would have an impact on continuing to build up my berlin orchestra template.



Fancy marketing words.

"Auto volume scaling" is probably what they have in their current capsule, where it keeps the volume constant no matter how you change the mic balance. If you have 3 mics loaded @50% each and then move one to 75% the others move to something like 33% to compensate for the volume gain of the other mic. So it keeps a constant volume no matter the balance, pretty cool feature.

"Core implemented legato" I have no idea. Hope it's a revamp of their legato system for much smoother legato transitions or something. Since I think the OT has mediocre legato. Although it been getting better with updates and newer release.


----------



## shawnsingh

Actually, my interpretation of "auto volume scaling" is different... I'm looking at 0:34 of their original trailer video (first post in this thread). From the video, it looks like auto volume scaling is an intelligent on-the-fly volume scaling of a release sample, based on whatever the volume of the main sample was at the time that note-off occurs. The volume can vary (e.g. think of swell / crescendo articulations) even within one specific velocity layer, so it seems like an improvement if the release sample can match the exact volume there was at the time of the note-off.

Similarly, core implemented legato, at 1:25 on that same video, I'm interpreting it as some on-the-fly processing to determine trimming, scaling, and volume ramping of an isolated legato transition sample, so that it might sound convincing more often between any two samples.

I don't have Kontakt scripting experience. But I'm guessing these features are harder to implement in Kontakt because it requires either vast amounts of pre-computed metadata about every point in time about the samples, or it would be some on-the-fly computations of volume levels, or maybe even spectral info (I hope!!), as the samples are playing.


----------



## shawnsingh

Speaking of on-the-fly intelligence about release samples - there is one idea about release samples I would love to see. When room sound is baked into samples, it's often unrealistic to change velocity CC from loud to soft too quickly, because it also affects the reverb of the room that is baked into the samples. If it is possible to intelligently detect when velocity CC is changing downwards too quickly, the sample player could trigger a release sample that matches the volume just before the dramatic CC change, which should help the room sound linger properly.


----------



## Jonathan Moray

Oh, yes @shawnsingh I believe you're right. I haven't watched the trailer in a couple of months, but I do believe you are absolute correct on this one.

About the "on-the-fly intelligence release". If I remember correctly Spitfire already does something similar with their "fp hall trigger". So wouldn't be totally unrealistic if OT were to implement something similar in their new player. Teldex is a big room with a long tail.


----------



## David Kudell

Nothing like a bumped thread to give you a mini-heart attack!


----------



## scoringdreams

Took me so long to notice this milestone announcement...


----------



## Mystic

scoringdreams said:


> Took me so long to notice this milestone announcement...


You've not missed anything. They've been quiet about it for a while. Hoping it comes out along side whatever library they are cooking up for December this year. Ark 5? Berlin Choirs?


----------



## Drundfunk

Mystic said:


> You've not missed anything. They've been quiet about it for a while. Hoping it comes out along side whatever library they are cooking up for December this year. Ark 5? Berlin Choirs?


Most likely it will be the Junkie XL Brass


----------



## scoringdreams

Berlin Choirs would be interesting.

Either the JXL Brass or an announcement to introduce a JXL-branded line of orchestral software?


----------



## Chungus

I'm mostly interested in their store. I'm hoping it'll be up and running before black friday, although I suspect it won't.


----------



## star.keys

Can’t wait... when is this coming?


----------



## Mystic

star.keys said:


> Can’t wait... when is this coming?


When it's done, probably. I'd imagine they want to work all the bugs out via testing hardcore before they release it to public. That takes time.


----------



## Chungus

Mystic said:


> When it's done, probably. I'd imagine they want to work all the bugs out via testing hardcore before they release it to public. That takes time.


I like to imagine people from OT are looking at the backlash in the BBCSO thread and thinking; "oof. Let's not do that."


----------



## Digivolt

So with JXL Brass being on preorder is there any news for this ? Surely it would have made sense to get this out in the wild with the free library to get people "beta" testing it to iron out most of the bugs so JXL Brass would be mostly bug free (in terms of the player itself) before releasing the library ?


----------



## jamwerks

Digivolt said:


> So with JXL Brass being on preorder is there any news for this ? Surely it would have made sense to get this out in the wild with the free library to get people "beta" testing it to iron out most of the bugs so JXL Brass would be mostly bug free (in terms of the player itself) before releasing the library ?


Yeah the fact that "Layers" didn't come out first makes me think their just wasn't time for that and the Brass to make it before Xmas, so Layers might come later. I'll probably buy JXL Brass so let's hope for smooth sailing with the new player !


----------



## OrchestralTools

With more than 15 developers working for over 3 years, we are so proud to finally introduce our new player: SINE.

Since the first prototype was built, we've been so excited by all the advancements we’ve made.
The release of our SINE player only marks the beginning of all the innovations to come.

To give you all the information you need, we’ve decided to create a SINE video series; showing you everything our SINE player has to offer - step by step.

https://youtu.be/wYRgk5yqZMg (Introducing the SINE Player - Episode 1)




You can also visit http://www.getsine.com/ (www.getSINE.com) for even more information about the groundbreaking features our SINE player has to offer, including:

Mic Merging
Auto Volume Scaling
Easy-to-use UI
Articulation Management
Single Instruments
Download à la carte - save space by only downloading the Mic Positions & Instruments you want


----------



## KallumS




----------



## erikradbo

OrchestralTools said:


> With more than 15 developers working for over 3 years, we are so proud to finally introduce our new player: SINE.
> 
> Since the first prototype was built, we've been so excited by all the advancements we’ve made.
> The release of our SINE player only marks the beginning of all the innovations to come.
> 
> To give you all the information you need, we’ve decided to create a SINE video series; showing you everything our SINE player has to offer - step by step.
> 
> https://youtu.be/wYRgk5yqZMg (Introducing the SINE Player - Episode 1)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can also visit http://www.getsine.com/ (www.getSINE.com) for even more information about the groundbreaking features our SINE player has to offer, including:
> 
> Mic Merging
> Auto Volume Scaling
> Easy-to-use UI
> Articulation Management
> Single Instruments
> Download à la carte - save space by only downloading the Mic Positions & Instruments you want




Nice. So, will we who own previous libraries from OT be able to use them in Sine instead of Kontakt?


----------



## matthieuL

This is what I understood (with "new"/adapted samples to download)
The question is : when the SINE samples will be available ? Will all the libraries be available for SINE at the SINE release 16th december, or will it take years one by one ?


----------



## Mystic

OrchestralTools said:


> With more than 15 developers working for over 3 years, we are so proud to finally introduce our new player: SINE.


Signed up on the website. Will we need to contact you about getting our existing libraries in the new account or will that be done automatically? Thanks.


----------



## river angler

I have not looked in depth at this new OT player yet but from a players point of view Kontakts program "setlist" window is still necessary to hold all ones customed patches for program change selection from a master keyboard during live performance


----------



## abrasounds

I'm definitely looking forward to trying this out! 😁 And hope you soon release some JXL demos and walkthroughs as well, would be awesome to hear the actual library in action - especially if together with the SINE Player!


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

To save folks a bit of clicking through:


----------



## matthieuL

Mystic said:


> Signed up on the website. Will we need to contact you about getting our existing libraries in the new account or will that be done automatically? Thanks.


In the Support of the new website :




__





Adding existing purchases to your OT Account - Orchestral Tools Helpdesk


Your OT account holds all your purchases instruments and collections. At this time, only SINEplayer-powered collections are in it. Whenever an existing collecti




orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com





THEY will contact us to import existing libraries on our account.


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

This one is really promising ! (Berlin Brass easy fix <3 )


----------



## axb312

Land of Missing Parts said:


> To save folks a bit of clicking through:



Does that mean layers (the free lib.) will also come out on the 16th?


----------



## abrasounds

matthieuL said:


> In the Support of the new website :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Adding existing purchases to your OT Account - Orchestral Tools Helpdesk
> 
> 
> Your OT account holds all your purchases instruments and collections. At this time, only SINEplayer-powered collections are in it. Whenever an existing collecti
> 
> 
> 
> 
> orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> THEY will contact us to import existing libraries on our account.



I wonder if there will be any problems to import libraries bought via the NI sale they had. I hope not!


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

axb312 said:


> Does that mean layers (the free lib.) will also come out on the 16th?


----------



## Fry777

whitewasteland said:


> This one is really promising ! (Berlin Brass easy fix <3 )



This too !


----------



## Pier

Sine was out of my radar and just learned about it.

Like Spitfire, another company that moves away from Kontakt. Not surprising really, NI seems to be a sinking ship these days.


----------



## xanderscores

I had a conversation today with OT support and asked them explicitly if something was in the making and if I'd better wait with my purchase of Berlin libraries. This was exactly 3 hours before the video was released, haha ) 
Anyway they told me: "... all existing customers will get free crossgrades, so there is nothing lost in purchasing now."


----------



## matthieuL

xanderscores said:


> Anyway they told me: "... all existing customers will get free crossgrades, so there is nothing lost in purchasing now."


Except the fact that it was announced there will be bundle prices in the new shop.


----------



## turnerofwheels

It looks very impressive, looking forward to trying it out!


----------



## Michael Antrum

I get the impression the OT are just not quite ready for BF With the new player, which looks very interesting.

I do hope they do something big on Berlin again......


----------



## jamwerks

Judging from the announced features, the new player should breath some new life into their existing libraries. Wonder if they were able to easily port their Capsule scripting into Sine?


----------



## jneebz

So earlier posts in this thread seem to imply that there's an "a la carte" option where one has the option to purchase only portions of a full library, but that wasn't exactly what this new video described. It sounded more to me that you own a full library and have the option to download only parts of it "to save hard drive space." Did I miss something?


----------



## Geocranium

jneebz said:


> So earlier posts in this thread seem to imply that there's an "a la carte" option where one has the option to purchase only portions of a full library, but that wasn't exactly what this new video described. It sounded more to me that you own a full library and have the option to download only parts of it "to save hard drive space." Did I miss something?





In their original webshop video, it explicitly highlights the feature of buying single instruments from their collections. Would be a bit odd if they backtracked on that for some reason.


----------



## LamaRose

The store layout and features look game-changer impressive... and the full-time bundle discounts are a nice touch. I wonder if they would consider discounts per volume of a la carte purchases... say, if you purchase $500 of individual instruments, then you would receive a $100 discount? The same as bundling, but done piecemeal.


----------



## sostenuto

Wonder if my (2) 100 Euro Codes from BOI purchases will ever make sense ?? 
Each usage must be for >599 Eur purchase.


----------



## Vik

Maybe one can buy single instruments, but only download the mic positions you need when you need them?


----------



## turnerofwheels

Ohh that's dangerous. I rarely have coin to buy a whole library, but, depending on the price point for each instrument, I could see myself slowly buying up the bulk of the OT collections over the next couple years...


----------



## prodigalson

SHANE TURNER said:


> Ohh that's dangerous. I rarely have coin to buy a whole library, but, depending on the price point for each instrument, I could see myself slowly buying up the bulk of the OT collections over the next couple years...



I think that’s the plan. 

I may have been mistaken about thinking you could buy just the mic positions you wanted (seemed to make sense if their also allowing you to buy single instruments) But it does seem clear you don’t need to buy the whole collection. You can just buy the solo French Horn from JXL Brass and see how you get on. Don’t want all the epic 12 Horn ensembles etc? Don’t buy em...

Although I would assume the cost of individual instruments will outweigh the cost of the full library so, depending on how many you buy, there may come a point you might as well just buy the whole thing...

Which is probably also the plan


----------



## Daniel James

As I am sure you are aware I am not a _huge_ fan of custom players but I do appreciate you are bringing some innovations to the table, I will give it a shot for sure. LOVE the mic merging idea!

-DJ


----------



## ahorsewhocandrive

Curious how the account system works - do you create a new account and register with all the codes you got in your purchase emails?


----------



## bvaughn0402

audiosprite said:


> Curious how the account system works - do you create a new account and register with all the codes you got in your purchase emails?



At some point future, they will send an email about how to port licenses into this new system.


----------



## Coqui

audiosprite said:


> Curious how the account system works - do you create a new account and register with all the codes you got in your purchase emails?


I hope they'll reconstruct the serial numbers through Native Access! I bought OT products from OT but also from Native: the idea of searching through e-mails for serial numbers is terrible!


----------



## pawelmorytko

So far loving everything I'm hearing, especially the individual shopping system, can't wait to try out some Berlin Brass instruments and Choirs from the Arks! I hope the new player will not be as resource heavy as Capsule (from what I've heard the Berlin series are very CPU demanding), although I only own Ark 1 which has never been a problem on my RAM so I don't actually know how bad the Berlin series are.


----------



## bvaughn0402

The one thing I haven't seen ... and maybe it is there ...

The ability to hear or even try out sounds before buying. It would be amazing to actually be able to play 30 seconds of an instrument patch before buying it. Or at least hearing samples of it first.


----------



## pawelmorytko

bvaughn0402 said:


> The one thing I haven't seen ... and maybe it is there ...
> 
> The ability to hear or even try out sounds before buying. It would be amazing to actually be able to play 30 seconds of an instrument patch before buying it. Or at least hearing samples of it first.


Yeah I thought about that the other day because the only way to decide if you want to buy Horn 1, 2, 3 or 4 from Berlin Brass is to go on the walkthrough and listen carefully to the short demo performed on each horn. It's not much but it's something, it would be cool to have a preview of each instrument before buying it though


----------



## Vik

"the idea of searching through e-mails for serial numbers is terrible!" Agree, which is why I started a while ago, to store them all in one place.


----------



## jbuhler

pawelmorytko said:


> So far loving everything I'm hearing, especially the individual shopping system, can't wait to try out some Berlin Brass instruments and Choirs from the Arks! I hope the new player will not be as resource heavy as Capsule (from what I've heard the Berlin series are very CPU demanding), although I only own Ark 1 which has never been a problem on my RAM so I don't actually know how bad the Berlin series are.


The Arks are fine on my system, and Capsule works for them as well as it works on anything. Berlin Strings is a completely different animal, and that's where the resource issues come in. On the one hand, Berlin Strings does have a great set of articulations and add-ons for even more. The library with its add-ons is quite comprehensive and it sounds great. You can do wonderful things even with the basic library. Overall it's my favorite sounding string library across the range. On the other hand, it takes a huge amount of RAM to load all those articulations even using only one mic. With multiple mics, it's unwieldy for all but the largest and most robust systems. The library is fussy to program and takes far longer to get right than my other libraries. So it goes mostly unused even though I very much like the sound. My frustrations with it and Capsule are why I'm hoping the new sample player allows OT to make the library more useable on my rig.


----------



## constaneum

xanderscores said:


> I had a conversation today with OT support and asked them explicitly if something was in the making and if I'd better wait with my purchase of Berlin libraries. This was exactly 3 hours before the video was released, haha )
> Anyway they told me: "... all existing customers will get free crossgrades, so there is nothing lost in purchasing now."



Including BWW legacy customers?


----------



## OrchestralTools

Hey everyone!

Thanks for all the great feedback so far. Walkthroughs and more content is in the making and of course they will be released with enough time before the pre-order ends.

Just to answer some of your questions so far, SINE will be free to download (after being released December 16th) and yes, in the future you'll be able to add your previously purchased OT libraries to SINE and start utilizing SINE's features across those libraries too.
All the OT libraries you purchased up until now will still work on Konakt.

Layers will be released after December 16th & we'll keep you posted on more news. 

Keep your eyes peeled for the next episode of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYRgk5yqZMg ('Introducing: the SINE Player') and if you have anything you want to ask us, fire away!

Don't forget to check out http://www.getsine.com/ (www.getSINE.com) for more information on all of SINE's features. 

Thanks for all your support,

Hendrik


----------



## matthieuL

OrchestralTools said:


> in the future you'll be able to add your previously purchased OT libraries to SINE and start utilizing SINE's features across those libraries too.


Is "future" weeks, months or years ?


----------



## NYC Composer

matthieuL said:


> Is "future" weeks, months or years ?


As far as I know, it includes all three, also seconds, minutes, hours, decades, centuries......


----------



## OrchestralTools

Hey Guys,

I just shot another episode, showing you how to get started with SINE.
From installing SINE to playing the first patch.



Btw, more Walkthroughts around Junkie XL Brass & another view behind the curtain will come!
In the meantime, for more info head to http://www.getsine.com/ (www.getsine.com) and jxlbrass.com

All the best,
Hendrik


----------



## Eptesicus

OrchestralTools said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> I just shot another episode, showing you how to get started with SINE.
> From installing SINE to playing the first patch.
> 
> 
> 
> Btw, more Walkthroughts around Junkie XL Brass & another view behind the curtain will come!
> In the meantime, for more info head to http://www.getsine.com/ (www.getsine.com) and jxlbrass.com
> 
> All the best,
> Hendrik




You guys going to release any Junkie XL demos before we all spend our money during the black friday sales?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

jxl patch sounds better here than the announcement demo, good to know a more natural teldex tone is still there


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

ProfoundSilence said:


> jxl patch sounds better here than the announcement demo, good to know a more natural teldex tone is still there


Like far far far better.


----------



## Craig Sharmat

Looks great, I presume if I have old projects I need to call up i'll need to keep the Kontakt based library also.


----------



## EvilDragon

UI-wise there's not enough separation of sections across the whole interface. For example, on the right side where the articulation list is, there should be a horizontal separator from the rest of the GUI. Or a different shade of background. Just something to make a better and more obvious separation between sections of different functionality.

It's still better than the Spitfire player fiasco of a GUI, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be even better. 


What I'm more interested in is actual performance, I do wonder how CPU taxing all that realtime monitoring of sample levels in order to match them to RTs really is (considering you could have hundreds upon hundreds of voices going off simultaneously)...


----------



## shawnsingh

EvilDragon said:


> UI-wise there's not enough separation of sections across the whole interface. For example, on the right side where the articulation list is, there should be a horizontal separator from the rest of the GUI. Or a different shade of background. Just something to make a better and more obvious separation between sections of different functionality.
> 
> It's still better than the Spitfire player fiasco of a GUI, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be even better.
> 
> 
> What I'm more interested in is actual performance, I do wonder how CPU taxing all that realtime monitoring of sample levels in order to match them to RTs really is (considering you could have hundreds upon hundreds of voices going off simultaneously)...



Perhaps it's precomputed metadata somehow embedded into the samples? Maybe RMS or level data only needs to be 100 Hz instead of 44.1 or 48 kHz.


----------



## EvilDragon

Probably not, because they say it's _realtime_. Which means they get the current dB level of the sample when you release the key (so that can be at any point), in order to match it with the RT.


----------



## shawnsingh

Oh yeah, good point.


----------



## jcrosby

jamwerks said:


> Judging from the announced features, the new player should breath some new life into their existing libraries. Wonder if they were able to easily port their Capsule scripting into Sine?


I asked them about this earlier this month... Tobias said something along the lines of: _"The Sine Player will do everything Capsule does, and will do more_..." (I secifically asked about morphing patches from disparate libraries like _Arks 1_ and _2._)

From the email it sounded like part of the point was to improve on Capsule in ways that either weren't possible or easy to do in Kontakt...

We'll see on the 16th, but OT hasn't let me down so far... So far there are a lot of clever things I see being hugely beneficial over Kontakt... This is the one 3rd party-player I actually have very high hopes for, OT genuinely seem to _get it_...


----------



## Consona

Geocranium said:


> In their original webshop video, it explicitly highlights the feature of buying single instruments from their collections. Would be a bit odd if they backtracked on that for some reason.


Oh, the a la carte purchase system was my most anticipated thing about this whole project. Hope they haven't changed their minds regarding this.


----------



## KallumS

Consona said:


> Oh, the a la carte purchase system was my most anticipated thing about this whole project. Hope they haven't changed their minds regarding this.



@OrchestralTools please could you put us out of our misery and give us a hint? Is this still the plan or was the idea dropped?


----------



## lucor

KallumS said:


> @OrchestralTools please could you put us out of our misery and give us a hint? Is this still the plan or was the idea dropped?


If you look at the latest video you can see that for each library it says "x out of x instruments licensed", so the idea doesn't seem to have been dropped.


----------



## I like music

Imagine if they made the a la carte system so realistic that when you purchased a flute, it stopped playing properly after a year because you hadn't serviced it, and then you had to go back to the shop, pay £50 to have it virtually cleaned and serviced?

Or had to buy reeds every few months (or however long one keeps using a reed)?

All in the name of realism?


----------



## NekujaK

I like music said:


> Imagine if they made the a la carte system so realistic that when you purchased a flute, it stopped playing properly after a year because you hadn't serviced it, and then you had to go back to the shop, pay £50 to have it virtually cleaned and serviced?
> 
> Or had to buy reeds every few months (or however long one keeps using a reed)?
> 
> All in the name of realism?


Last year Mercuriall ran an April Fools "sale" touting a new level of realism in their amp sims that involved buying virtual tubes for their virtual amps that would degrade over time and require periodic purchase of replacement virtual tubes.

Their announcement emailings and website were extremely convincing with no hint of April Foolery, and for a few minutes I thought to myself, "What a scam! I'm NEVER buying one of their products again." Then I calmed down after realizing what day it was


----------



## I like music

NekujaK said:


> Last year Mercuriall ran an April Fools "sale" touting a new level of realism in their amp sims that involved buying virtual tubes for their virtual amps that would degrade over time and require periodic purchase of replacement virtual tubes.
> 
> Their announcement emailings and website were extremely convincing with no hint of April Foolery, and for a few minutes I thought to myself, "What a scam! I'm NEVER buying one of their products again." Then I calmed down after realizing what day it was



Haha, a risky manoeuvre, especially if that mailout is going globally! Sounds like a fun bunch though.


----------



## Christian Thon

EvilDragon said:


> UI-wise there's not enough separation of sections across the whole interface. For example, on the right side where the articulation list is, there should be a horizontal separator from the rest of the GUI. Or a different shade of background. Just something to make a better and more obvious separation between sections of different functionality.
> 
> It's still better than the Spitfire player fiasco of a GUI, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be even better.



This, @OrchestralTools! Please consider this. As a visually impaired user who uses Windows Magnifier at 800 % all the time, it can be very tricky to know which section of a UI I'm looking at without any separators or difference in background color. Oh, and thanks for dark UI by the way!

I have to say I love the idea of mic merging and the modular purchase/download options. I really hope they nail this one.


----------



## OrchestralTools

Everyone thanks for your feedback, taking everything on board. And the a-la-carte feature is part of SINE, so minds definitely not changed

I’ve just released our 3rd episode on youtube, this one goes into articulation management in more detail, key switches, and a few more features (with a little look at Junkie XL Brass).



Demos & walkthroughs for Junkie XL Brass are coming really soon, but also we’re going to put out some more videos on the SINE player so you can get a closer look at it.

Let me know your thoughts, I really want to hear your feedback on this!

Best,
Hendrik


----------



## Noeticus

Hello Hendrik,

Thanks for your wonderful videos.

Will we be able, within SINE, to listen/audition the articulation before we buy it?

Also, shouldn't the keyboard change color for the notes that are altered samples when you drag the keyboard to change it length and thus add notes/keys beyond the original samples?

And, when does bundle pricing go into effect?


----------



## shawnsingh

I'm irrationally excited about the SINE player. =)

A few questions:

(1) Will it be possible to layer multiple articulations on the same keyswitch? examples:
- If someone wants to layer pizzicato and col legno.
- If someone wants to create an "ensemble" patch with violins and viola legato, with violins transposed 8va?

(2) Will it be possible to organize articulations from different instruments on the same midi channel?



Noeticus said:


> Also, shouldn't the keyboard change color for the notes that are altered samples when you drag the keyboard to change it length and thus add notes/keys beyond the original samples?



+1 for this idea to have visual feedback about where range is extended beyond range of original samples.


----------



## G_Erland

I for one, doing a big project (big for me) using a foundation of OT samples, this could really not have come at a better time - not a bad word about kontakt or capsule, but i can not wait for this streamlined technology to take care of your qualitatively groundbreaking samples! 1: The single instruments buying I really think is the kind of thing that might get to have extraordinary meaning, congratulations and many thanks and all the luck in the world! 2: Im exited to think that already published samples will benefit from the player’s improved handling of releases and legato. A superb way of taking the legacy of your recorded history into the future, in my humble opinion. Also, the new library, Im quite sure I know how bad I will want it after a walkthrough or two!


----------



## river angler

OrchestralTools said:


> Everyone thanks for your feedback, taking everything on board. And the a-la-carte feature is part of SINE, so minds definitely not changed
> 
> I’ve just released our 3rd episode on youtube, this one goes into articulation management in more detail, key switches, and a few more features (with a little look at Junkie XL Brass).
> 
> 
> 
> Demos & walkthroughs for Junkie XL Brass are coming really soon, but also we’re going to put out some more videos on the SINE player so you can get a closer look at it.
> 
> Let me know your thoughts, I really want to hear your feedback on this!
> 
> Best,
> Hendrik



Hi Hendrik! Have a key question for you that is related to using your libraries live on stage...

One of the main reasons I use your libraries (Inspire 1 & 2) and literally no other for my core orchestral tools (no pun intended of course! lol!) is that one can use key velocity to control dynamics on all your longs. Playing legato strings live on stage one needs to be able to trigger the samples initial levels with key velocity.

Similarly as all your libraries still harness Kontakt I am able to set up patch libraries of sounds to be remotely selectable via program change messages...

My question therefore is: will SINE have its own similar window for setting up say 127 customed patches ready to be selected via program change messages from a master keyboard?


----------



## gjelul

Thumbs up on the Articulation List options / settings - great to be able to arrange / re-arrange the triggering of the articulations in such an easy way.

Looking forward to Dec 16th.


----------



## Loïc D

Having paused video in the first seconds shows glimpses of many gorgeous functionalities...
You definitely have my attention (and my budget ?)


----------



## Kony

SINE's functionality is already seriously impressive just from these short demos - very much looking forward to using this!


----------



## xanderscores

This comes at the perfect time for me, being just about to gear up with OT libraries. So far I've got Time Micro, Inspire and Ark 2, kind of as a test run for going all in with the Berlin series. all of them excellent sounding, but I'm not too keen about Kontakt. I hope they took their time with the new engine. Usually it takes months before that kind of new software works flawlessly, all bugs resolved, performance optimized... I wish them (and us) all the best - it's definitely a huge step forward in sample library management!


----------



## OrchestralTools

river angler said:


> Hi Hendrik! Have a key question for you that is related to using your libraries live on stage...
> 
> One of the main reasons I use your libraries (Inspire 1 & 2) and literally no other for my core orchestral tools (no pun intended of course! lol!) is that one can use key velocity to control dynamics on all your longs. Playing legato strings live on stage one needs to be able to trigger the samples initial levels with key velocity.
> 
> Similarly as all your libraries still harness Kontakt I am able to set up patch libraries of sounds to be remotely selectable via program change messages...
> 
> My question therefore is: will SINE have its own similar window for setting up say 127 customed patches ready to be selected via program change messages from a master keyboard?



Hi river angler,

Regarding the dynamics, it's possible to control it with velocity instead of CC1.
Also you can switch articulations based on program changes. 
Btw there is a batch functionality that lets you remap the whole articulation list to program changes.

Hope this helps!


----------



## OrchestralTools

shawnsingh said:


> I'm irrationally excited about the SINE player. =)
> 
> A few questions:
> 
> (1) Will it be possible to layer multiple articulations on the same keyswitch? examples:
> - If someone wants to layer pizzicato and col legno.
> - If someone wants to create an "ensemble" patch with violins and viola legato, with violins transposed 8va?
> 
> (2) Will it be possible to organize articulations from different instruments on the same midi channel?
> 
> 
> 
> +1 for this idea to have visual feedback about where range is extended beyond range of original samples.



Hi shawnsingh!

You’re able to layer multiple articulations with pressing both keyswitches in the same time. For that you should activate the Polymap.
You can also create an ensemble patch by choosing the same midi channel for violins and violas.
Then just transpose e.g. the violins by an octave. Just move the playing range with their handles on top of the virtual keyboard to do it.

It will not be possible to mix up articulations from different instruments. But you can assign the same midi channel to them.

Really like that idea of giving the extended notes another color. That’s something we should keep in mind for a future update!


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Real question, it *Might* not be already implemented, but it's absolutely useful to have a "blank" articulation. I use it all the time with capsule to crossfade between different instruments/expansion articulations. 

i.e. sul tasto > imm RV > imm sul pont.


----------



## river angler

OrchestralTools said:


> Hi river angler,
> 
> Regarding the dynamics, it's possible to control it with velocity instead of CC1.
> Also you can switch articulations based on program changes.
> Btw there is a batch functionality that lets you remap the whole articulation list to program changes.
> 
> Hope this helps!


Hi Hendrik, 
Thanks very much for your response.

However I was actually referring to changing complete sound patches via program change not the articulations within the sound patches themselves. 

In Kontakt one can set up an "instrument bank" where one can add single or multi library combinations of sounds as single or combie patches which can then be selected remotely via program change numbers turning Kontakt into a remotely selectable sound module (think old school like having a rack synth receiving midi program changes to select its sound patches!)

In fact by any manufacturer migrating to its own integral player (as Spitfire also seem to be doing more and more) you are actually making life for the live performer more tricky to incorporate your wonderful libraries into his arsenal of selectable sounds! Even if you do implement a patch bank within your new SINE player it would mean having to assign a midi channel to every instance of an orchestral tools instrument I wished to play live on stage- there are not enough midi channels to do this! 

To better understand exactly what I'm getting at here may I suggest you have a look at the video below. The chap here sets up program changes within a track in his DAW but obviously for the live keyboard player those program changes would be sent out from his master keyboard. I use a Korg Kronos to switch sound banks/patches from my entire rig via a single switch where both old hardware synths and VIs react to a single button on the press from the Kronos sending out simultaneous program change messages on separate midi channels to change each "sound modules" sound patch!

I understand that your libraries are principally designed for composition in the studio which is something I do all the time but I also play live and it would be a shame to loose this possibility with the already well implemented velocity control available for controlling dynamics in all your libraries.

I hope this makes my request clear!...


----------



## tabulius

How about an option to change articulations via sustain footpedal? If I remember correctly Cinesamples used this pretty well with their instruments. Legatos were at sustain pedal down and shorts at pedal up. It worked pretty well in most cases imo.


----------



## NoamL

Episode 4 is up:



It truly looks like magic. The mic merge feature is such a gamechanger it's hard to wrap my head around how much it's going to change VI music. It really means developers using SINE are going to be able to deliver as many mic positions as they want, the days of complaining about "too many mics for my system" are over, just make a mix.

The Remote Mic feature is neat as well.


----------



## 5Lives

How long does the mic merge process take and how much additional hard disk space does it take up? I’m guessing it’ll depend on the library size? Does it do it for all samples or only those currently loaded / used? Are mixes saved for future sessions / instances of the player?


----------



## purple

5Lives said:


> How long does the mic merge process take and how much additional hard disk space does it take up? I’m guessing it’ll depend on the library size? Does it do it for all samples or only those currently loaded / used? Are mixes saved for future sessions / instances of the player?


I would imagine it is essentially re-saving that mix as a new set of samples. Probably not too long for it to happen but then it would take up as much space as a single mic position. If this is the case, then it's obviously accessible from other sessions as it would essentially just appear like another mic position to the player. Maybe I'm wrong, though.


----------



## Babe

'You’re able to layer multiple articulations with pressing both keyswitches in the same time. For that you should activate the Polymap'

What's great about capsule is that you can set how much of each articulation is used. i.e. Stac. and Sus. Use a CC to adjust the attack. Will this be possible in Sine?


----------



## OrchestralTools

Episode 4 is live!!
This one goes into more detail about Mic Merging.
You can go through the mixer step by step and get a real understanding of how SINE economizes on space. 



Mic Merging means you can mix multiple mic positions and create the exact sound you want, then merge them into one custom mix.

As ever, let us know your thoughts!

OT Team


----------



## matthieuL

Brilliant !!! I dreamed of that feature too.

One remark concerning the UI. The strips of the mics are not enough different from the instrument's one : with several instruments, it becomes unclear (should be a different color (neutral like grey) for the selected mics ?, different size for the mics ? don't know...)
Sidenote : have we the possibility to custom the color of the instruments ?


----------



## PeterKorcek

matthieuL said:


> Brilliant !!! I dreamed of that feature too.
> 
> One remark concerning the UI. The strips of the mics are not enough different from the instrument's one : with several instruments, it becomes unclear (should be a different color (neutral like grey) for the selected mics ?, different size for the mics ? don't know...)
> Sidenote : have we the possibility to custom the color of the instruments ?



That was my thought exactly when I was watching videos - need more definition IMO.


----------



## pawelmorytko

I absolutely love the mic merge feature, especially since my Mac only has 16gb ram. It was one of the reasons I was scared to invest in the Berlin Series, but now that shouldn't be a problem as it seems you can get a mix down of multiple mics into one signal, so it should take about as many resources as Berlin Inspire with its one mic option.

I wonder, how long does merging down the mics take? In the video it cuts off as the bar is loading. I'm assuming it could take up to a few minutes. Wonder if we could one day start seeing some presets either by the OT team or user created presets for mic merge options.


----------



## tokatila

Gotta say that mic merging feature is genius. Makes me want to invest to the Berlin Series even I have the full Spitfire Orchestra already.


----------



## OrchestralTools

THE WALKTHROUGH HAS ARRIVED!!! 
The first Junkie XL Brass WALKTHROUGH is live and we can’t wait to hear your thoughts.



This Walkthrough delves into the mic positions, mic mixes (including some by Tom and Alan Meyerson), and you can really hear the 5 dynamic layers.

And remember, Pre Order includes access to a live masterclass with Junkie XL himself, teaching you how to fully utilize this next generation brass library.

More walkthrough videos coming soon!

www.jxlbrass.com
http://www.getsine.com/ (www.getsine.com)


----------



## lucor

OrchestralTools said:


> THE WALKTHROUGH HAS ARRIVED!!!
> The first Junkie XL Brass WALKTHROUGH is live and we can’t wait to hear your thoughts.
> 
> 
> 
> This Walkthrough delves into the mic positions, mic mixes (including some by Tom and Alan Meyerson), and you can really hear the 5 dynamic layers.
> 
> And remember, Pre Order includes access to a live masterclass with Junkie XL himself, teaching you how to fully utilize this next generation brass library.
> 
> More walkthrough videos coming soon!
> 
> www.jxlbrass.com
> http://www.getsine.com/ (www.getsine.com)



The mixer GUI really needs some work. I'm getting extremely disoriented looking at it, because there is no separation between the channels (actually everytime I look at it my brain thinks the white line at the top from the pan control is the separator, making it even more confusing). 

But man, the sound is fantastic so far! Getting harder and harder to resist the more I hear.


----------



## Eptesicus

Is it just me or are the trumpets all over the place, stereo wise on the last example/passage in the second to last part of that video?

Also, the trumpets in that passage at 09:54 sounds horrid. They suddenly go all thin and buzzy.

I love the solo ensemble passage at about 3.46. The dynamic range really shines there.


----------



## Lionel Schmitt

Is the release of "Layers" and the option to purchase separate articulations and instruments etc coming soon or is that all still some way off? I haven't heard anything about that since the keynote announcement.


----------



## Architekton

That first brass walkthrough is amazing, not so keen on trumpets, but everything else sounds stellar!!! Well done, boys!


----------



## shawnsingh

Eptesicus said:


> Is it just me or are the trumpets all over the place, stereo wise on the last example/passage in the second to last part of that video?
> 
> Also, the trumpets in that passage at 09:54 sounds horrid. They suddenly go all thin and buzzy.
> 
> I love the solo ensemble passage at about 3.46. The dynamic range really shines there.



The way I'm hearing it, I think the "stereo image all over the place" is explained by room reflections being different depending on the note (i.e. frequency) and the volume being played. Some notes will excite the room one way, other notes in a different way. Especially when the tone changes from mellow to bright, this can change which human-perception localization cue we use to hear a stereo image (i.e. delays help in lower frequencies, level differences help in higher frequencies). If you don't like this side-effect of room mics, probably you can stabilize the image by including close mics, or maybe mid mics.

As for the thin and buzzy - I wouldn't be surprised if the trumpets are bells up on the higher velocity layers, and their bells would point directly at several of the mics, particularly tree. So it's not surprising that they go all thin and buzzy compared to any other brass instruments.

In my personal opinion, it's totally acceptable to have these side effects - it actually reinforces the positive point - that we really have the natural raw sound of the room being captured. With mic positions and mixing options like EQ/compression, it shouldn't be too hard to avoid the side effects when you don't want them in your final result.


----------



## lumcas

Maybe I'm too "subjective" but to me it's probably for the first time that I don't get that immediate feeling of "screw Kontakt, we will have our own PLAYer just for the sake of having it and it doesn't matter that it's worse in performance and/or functionality, not having to pay licensing fees is all we care about". This is actually the exact opposite or at least not the most important reason. The new features are innovative and I hope this will be a huge success for OT, looks great so far...I'm a fan, fingers crossed.


----------



## Loïc D

shawnsingh said:


> The way I'm hearing it, I think the "stereo image all over the place" is explained by room reflections being different depending on the note (i.e. frequency) and the volume being played. Some notes will excite the room one way, other notes in a different way. Especially when the tone changes from mellow to bright, this can change which human-perception localization cue we use to hear a stereo image (i.e. delays help in lower frequencies, level differences help in higher frequencies). If you don't like this side-effect of room mics, probably you can stabilize the image by including close mics, or maybe mid mics.
> 
> As for the thin and buzzy - I wouldn't be surprised if the trumpets are bells up on the higher velocity layers, and their bells would point directly at several of the mics, particularly tree. So it's not surprising that they go all thin and buzzy compared to any other brass instruments.
> 
> In my personal opinion, it's totally acceptable to have these side effects - it actually reinforces the positive point - that we really have the natural raw sound of the room being captured. With mic positions and mixing options like EQ/compression, it shouldn't be too hard to avoid the side effects when you don't want them in your final result.



I felt exactly the same. More than place in stereo field, I feel more like a wet/dry balance question. Which might be entirely natural. 
I'm pretty sure that with other instruments & extra reverb, this would not be noticeable.

So far, I really like what I see & hear.
Only the (lack of) channel separation in the mixer gives headache first, but I'm sure it will pass with the use of it.
Can't wait to head demos & watch other walkthrough. I hope one will be dedicated to the instruments with plenty of dynamic examples. And one on the performance / requirements would be nice.
On some screens I can see 13GB, which my system can't afford right now.


----------



## Kony

OrchestralTools said:


> THE WALKTHROUGH HAS ARRIVED!!!
> The first Junkie XL Brass WALKTHROUGH is live and we can’t wait to hear your thoughts.
> 
> 
> 
> This Walkthrough delves into the mic positions, mic mixes (including some by Tom and Alan Meyerson), and you can really hear the 5 dynamic layers.
> 
> And remember, Pre Order includes access to a live masterclass with Junkie XL himself, teaching you how to fully utilize this next generation brass library.
> 
> More walkthrough videos coming soon!
> 
> www.jxlbrass.com
> http://www.getsine.com/ (www.getsine.com)



Amazing sound - best brass library I've heard.


----------



## ReelToLogic

lucor said:


> The mixer GUI really needs some work. I'm getting extremely disoriented looking at it, because there is no separation between the channels (actually everytime I look at it my brain thinks the white line at the top from the pan control is the separator, making it even more confusing).
> 
> But man, the sound is fantastic so far! Getting harder and harder to resist the more I hear.


+1 on all these comments. Love the custom mixes, but not the mixer UI. That white line at the top of the mixer channels is very confusing. Its seems to group the wrong pair of mute and solo buttons.


----------



## Peter Satera

Any info on purging in sine?


----------



## Haakond

Peter Satera said:


> Any info on purging in sine?


I wonder about this too. Only have 32GB ram, so I purge all my samples. I want to know about how much CPU it uses, compared to Kontakt


----------



## ProfoundSilence

idk but based on the videos seems like it's pretty standard on ram, which is impressive given the dynamic layers

the single mic(combined with the savings from kontakt scripts eating tons of ram) sounds superb.


----------



## GingerMaestro

Has there been any confirmation if the new a la carte shop will release with this next week, or do we have to wait a bit longer for that ? Thanks


----------



## jamwerks

Do we know if the Berlin Series will be re-released on the new Sine Player?


----------



## Mihkel Zilmer

jamwerks said:


> Do we know if the Berlin Series will be re-released on the new Sine Player?



According to the keynote speech in January, yes, all existing series will be ported over. I believe the idea is to bring their entire catalogue into the new ecosystem.


----------



## Adam Takacs

jamwerks said:


> Do we know if the Berlin Series will be re-released on the new Sine Player?


Yes, based on the 2nd SINE video. As I see, the first SINE libraries will be Layers, Inspire 1-2, Ark 1, JXL Brass, but the Berlin Strings Beta also show up in the video


----------



## ProfoundSilence

oddly I think i'd rather BWW "sined" up first - since I use all the expansions - but i might just use it to save on ram and make due without for a bit


----------



## jamwerks

tadam said:


> Yes, based on the 2nd SINE video...


Cool ! Their new player is going to breath new life into these libraries. I'm particularly interested in being able to bounce a 3-4 mic mix down to stereo for Berlin Brass + expansions.

It'll be interesting to discover their pricing for individual instruments from their earlier collections.

Also hoping a totally new Woodwind library isn't too far out...


----------



## Adam Takacs

jamwerks said:


> Cool ! Their new player is going to breath new life into these libraries. I'm particularly interested in being able to bounce a 3-4 mic mix down to stereo for Berlin Brass + expansions.
> 
> It'll be interesting to discover their pricing for individual instruments from their earlier collections.
> 
> Also hoping a totally new Woodwind library isn't too far out...


I'm also excited about the developments.
So far I only have a few OT libraries (OSR, Pianos, Time macro, Inspire 1, Berlin Strings exp 2) but that will change.
The conception and the work they have done is outstanding.


----------



## constaneum

Download alacarte doesn't mean you can purchase the instrument separately. You still have to buy the entire library like as it is previously but instead of downloading the entire library, you can just download the mic you wanna use for each instrument. I believe that's how the marketing ggoes


----------



## ProfoundSilence

constaneum said:


> Download alacarte doesn't mean you can purchase the instrument separately. You still have to buy the entire library like as it is previously but instead of downloading the entire library, you can just download the mic you wanna use for each instrument. I believe that's how the marketing ggoes



I don't believe that's the case, im pretty sure you can buy the individual instruments(just not individual mics)

I believe this was the original plan, maybe they pulled out on it?


----------



## Peter Satera

constaneum said:


> Download alacarte doesn't mean you can purchase the instrument separately. You still have to buy the entire library like as it is previously but instead of downloading the entire library, you can just download the mic you wanna use for each instrument. I believe that's how the marketing ggoes



But in this case that's exactly what they shown - that you can buy individual parts of libs. Unless someone has suggested it, I don't see a reason to think this has been pulled.


----------



## pawelmorytko

constaneum said:


> Download alacarte doesn't mean you can purchase the instrument separately. You still have to buy the entire library like as it is previously but instead of downloading the entire library, you can just download the mic you wanna use for each instrument. I believe that's how the marketing ggoes


I emailed OT recently and got this reply 

*"you will indeed be able to purchase individual instruments in the shop, but not individual mic positions.
You always buy all mic positions of a given instrument, but you can choose to not install all of them."*

So it seems that you will indeed be able to purchase single instruments from each library, which is great when you're on a budget or just need something specific


----------



## constaneum

pawelmorytko said:


> I emailed OT recently and got this reply
> 
> *"you will indeed be able to purchase individual instruments in the shop, but not individual mic positions.
> You always buy all mic positions of a given instrument, but you can choose to not install all of them."*
> 
> So it seems that you will indeed be able to purchase single instruments from each library, which is great when you're on a budget or just need something specific



That's a relief to hear. I cant wait go grab a few


----------



## Zero&One

It's been established that we can buy individual instruments as per their video.
However, it still remains unclear if JXL will be part of this. As the video says "many of our collections are available..." not all. That might be just wording, or it may be concrete... who knows?

Be much easier if OT actually dropped in to clarify. @OrchestralTools is JXL available to download _per_ instrument on release day?


----------



## OrchestralTools

Switching articulations is one thing.
Merging, stacking and crossfading them is another!

Episode 5 of our SINE video series dives into Polymaps, so you can see for yourself the possibilities SINE opens up.



We’ve been reading all your comments here and on Facebook and YouTube so will try to answer some here.
But also don’t forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel and be the first to watch the next/penultimate episode of our SINE series.
Just to answer some of your questions:

Single Instruments will be available really soon, but not with the release of Junkie XL Brass on the 16th Dec.
You can install SINE on 3 different machines!
Other OT libraries will be added to SINE over the next few months. We’ll let you know as soon as they’re available. SINE is really going to transform what you can do with those libraries.
Junkie XL Brass comes with Download a-la-carte, and when we add our other libraries to SINE this will then be available with them too.

Also more walkthroughs of Junkie XL Brass are coming very soon as we also bring our SINE video series to an end

Thanks so much for your comments guys, if you have any questions please comment we are working on something to answer all your questions so keep ‘em coming!!

Thanks,

The OT Team

http://www.getsine.com/ (www.getsine.com)


----------



## jbuhler

ProfoundSilence said:


> oddly I think i'd rather BWW "sined" up first - since I use all the expansions - but i might just use it to save on ram and make due without for a bit


I want Berlin Strings "sined" early, since I find it more or less unusable with Capsule and my current set-up. I don't have issues with Capsule and the Inspires or the Arks.


----------



## HenryBishop

OrchestralTools said:


> Switching articulations is one thing.
> Merging, stacking and crossfading them is another!
> 
> Episode 5 of our SINE video series dives into Polymaps, so you can see for yourself the possibilities SINE opens up.
> 
> 
> 
> We’ve been reading all your comments here and on Facebook and YouTube so will try to answer some here.
> But also don’t forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel and be the first to watch the next/penultimate episode of our SINE series.
> Just to answer some of your questions:
> 
> Single Instruments will be available really soon, but not with the release of Junkie XL Brass on the 16th Dec.
> You can install SINE on 3 different machines!
> Other OT libraries will be added to SINE over the next few months. We’ll let you know as soon as they’re available. SINE is really going to transform what you can do with those libraries.
> Junkie XL Brass comes with Download a-la-carte, and when we add our other libraries to SINE this will then be available with them too.
> 
> Also more walkthroughs of Junkie XL Brass are coming very soon as we also bring our SINE video series to an end
> 
> Thanks so much for your comments guys, if you have any questions please comment we are working on something to answer all your questions so keep ‘em coming!!
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> The OT Team
> 
> http://www.getsine.com/ (www.getsine.com)



Great video!

May I ask does the new SINE player support sample purging? I only have 32 gb ram so I usually purge all the samples.


----------



## Ruffian Price

Is there any way to select articulations by MIDI channel?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Ruffian Price said:


> Is there any way to select articulations by MIDI channel?


yes


----------



## funnybear

I have to say SINE looks mighty tasty. If CPU and RAM usage is at or below Kontakt, OT have hit the bulls eye. One more reason to invest in the OT line (I am only half way there ).

Also, this will give the other players some desperately needed push to innovate (yes, I am looking at you NI).


----------



## jacobthestupendous

If I am trying to conserve SSD space, can I delete microphone positions that I don't need now and redownload them in the future? If so, for how long will they be available to me?


----------



## Peter Satera

Episode 6: LEGATO!
Loving what this player has to offer.


----------



## OrchestralTools

Not only can you build your own Legato Map, but with SINE you can also change the attack and release of articulations.



Very useful – for example, you can reduce the room sound on an articulation. You can also personalize the round robins, and make other detail tweaks.
We can’t wait to hear your thoughts on this when SINE becomes available on Monday.

To answer to some of your questions: you'll be able to select the mic positions you want then download them as 1 mic position. You can download more if you want, then download those again or delete and re do. SINE means this is totally flexible!
You will be able to purchase single instruments very soon, but not with the release of Junkie XL Brass on Monday.
And I think people have already said too but to confirm again yes OT libraries will be available for SINE - they'll be available in the coming months but we'll keep you posted on timelines!

Best,

OT Team


----------



## korruptkey

Awesome. The legato transition in Capsule was the reason why I started investing in OT.

But... on another note @OrchestralTools, the poly count bug with Time Machine patches with your Kontakt library is the reason why I don't use OT as often as I like. Spitfire didn't have this issue with their Kontakt libraries. Please have a performant TM function with your SINE player.


----------



## JF

OT,
Is it possible to fade between non-vib and vib with strings using SINE?


----------



## AEF

doesnt seem to be anything new from what is in capsule in ep6. CC1 cutoff filter, niente, adsr, applying legato to any long patch, round robin editing, legato transitions volume, legato type: all available in capsule.


----------



## jamwerks

So good to see Hendrick again on Videos! It adds a musical face to your products. 

The Sine player looks to have so many options that I'm going to want lots of your new libraries. A Woodwind library with 5 dynamic layers? Please, bring it on!!


----------



## David Kudell

The Sine player interface looks so much friendlier and easier than Kontakt. The tiny Kontakt window makes all the fonts and buttons too small and confusing. 

I also like how you can read the name of the articulation now, as opposed to the Kontakt multis where each articulation was abbreviated like SUSST, SSWAL, SUSAA, etc.


----------



## lumcas

I'm just wondering, is it totally inappropriate to expect OT sale as a celebration of SINE release or is it just my wishful thinking?


----------



## Eptesicus

lumcas said:


> I'm just wondering, is it totally inappropriate to expect OT sale as a celebration of SINE release or is it just my wishful thinking?



Would be a bit odd as the libraries they will be selling won't be ported to it yet.

I can see how it might make sense to do it when each library is ready for SINE.


----------



## gjelul

Eptesicus said:


> Would be a bit odd as the libraries they will be selling won't be ported to it yet.
> 
> I can see how it might make sense to do it when each library is ready for SINE.



It will take a long time - most likely - to have all the libraries migrated to Sine. They'll have to keep active with marketing the OT products, hence, x-mas specials, etc., etc. I'd be very surprised if they let the 'ground' all open for other developers to fill it with their end-of-year specials. Imo, they're focusing on JXL Brass and Sine and do not want to shift the attention to other products with specials, and such, at least until release -- it makes sense. 

I do see OT joining Spitfire, Cinesamples, etc., in the holiday season sale.

Hopefully, I'm not jinxing it


----------



## emilio_n

Maybe the stupid question here, but will SINE compatible in some way with NI KK? At least the lights guide?


----------



## Babe

Are you going to sell licenses to other companies to use Sine with their libraries? 

Any idea at all when BWW and BS will be available for use with Sine?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

JF said:


> OT,
> Is it possible to fade between non-vib and vib with strings using SINE?


yes. berlin strings had 2 different vibratos as well


----------



## ProfoundSilence

jamwerks said:


> So good to see Hendrick again on Videos! It adds a musical face to your products.
> 
> The Sine player looks to have so many options that I'm going to want lots of your new libraries. A Woodwind library with 5 dynamic layers? Please, bring it on!!



I wish they ditched the voice over guy for walkthroughs and just went back to the golden days


----------



## purple

ProfoundSilence said:


> I wish they ditched the voice over guy for walkthroughs and just went back to the golden days


I don't hate the voice, but it's too clean and overproduced I think. It used to just feel like a guy showing off what they had done, and a lot more personal and "real". Now it feels like a product demo (which I suppose it is, to be fair) and they guy pronounces a lot of musical terms wrongly, which is more of an annoyance than a dealbreaker haha.


----------



## jbuhler

ProfoundSilence said:


> I wish they ditched the voice over guy for walkthroughs and just went back to the golden days


multiple likes if I could.


----------



## jononotbono

AEF said:


> doesnt seem to be anything new from what is in capsule in ep6. CC1 cutoff filter, niente, adsr, applying legato to any long patch, round robin editing, legato transitions volume, legato type: all available in capsule.



Good. At least it is showing us that their new player has got the features they already have in Kontakt. Going to a new player and realising so much functionality isn’t in the new one is irritating.


----------



## Consona

OrchestralTools said:


> You will be able to purchase single instruments very soon, but not with the release of Junkie XL Brass on Monday.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

purple said:


> I don't hate the voice, but it's too clean and overproduced I think. It used to just feel like a guy showing off what they had done, and a lot more personal and "real". Now it feels like a product demo (which I suppose it is, to be fair) and they guy pronounces a lot of musical terms wrongly, which is more of an annoyance than a dealbreaker haha.


timber 

I'm not sure what the appeal was, hearing the OT crew give voice overs is deal, because it's basically artists excited to show you their newest work - and you really feel their attachment to the product

the voice over makes it seem like it was made in a lab somewhere or on an assembly line.... but maybe its their accents... They dont sound unprofessional at all to me, but I dont live in Germany, and they might have a strange accent or something. Sounds weird, but I heard that Arnold Schwarzenegger has essentially a hillbilly accent in Austria, although non-native wouldnt know any better. 

If Ch/Pt got an american to voice over spitfire walkthroughs it would sound weird and pandery, and if Mike got someone with an British accent to voice over it would probably sound pandery(unless you had DJ do your walkthroughs... hes local, hit him up, as long as your brass has big ______ ______). When OT does it, it doesn't feel slimy or anything, it just feels odd. The new sine player walkthroughs have the crew which is excellent. Even hearing the developer who worked on Saw propping up his work was much more personally engaging and exciting

marketing for normal people is fine, but we are ALL creators and nothing is better than watching someone truly excited about their work sharing it with you - its infectious, and part of SFA's secret sauce(dont hire an assassin please).


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Please confirm, am I able to make multiple mixed mics and purge/load them via midi data?

could we turn all mics off for 0% ram?


----------



## Peter Satera

ProfoundSilence said:


> Please confirm, am I able to make multiple mixed mics and purge/load them via midi data?
> 
> could we turn all mics off for 0% ram?



Interested in this too, I do see a purge button, would like to know if you can purge individual and all.


----------



## OrchestralTools

We just released the 2nd walkthrough



This walkthrough takes you through each instrument of the Junkie XL Brass library. 
From solo instruments up to sections of 12 players, listen to the highly consistent articulations and legato patches.

Remember, pre-order includes access to a live masterclass with Junkie XL himself, teaching you how to fully utilize this brass library.

If you have any questions let us know, and we're working on a Demo as we speak..

Best,

OT Team


----------



## LamaRose

For the record, I like the dude who does the normal walkthroughs... and who's to say he isn't from Denmark? I've heard speakers from that country that I considered taking English lessons from, lol.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

purple said:


> guy pronounces a lot of musical terms wrongly, which is more of an annoyance than a dealbreaker haha.



"esforando" like nasferatu's latin cousin counterpart I guess? 

I feel like it's a running gag at this point and the guy is actually an LSO musician putting on his best American accent to make fun of voice overs


----------



## David Kudell

I saw the Sine, so I just had to make this:


----------



## Loïc D

I have to say it’s one of the most instructive walkthrough I ever watched.
Not only focused on the product, with great examples in many styles and not random playing of patches.
Congratulations !


----------



## purple

This will be the last brass library I buy! I promise!


----------



## nas

I haven't gone through the entire thread so apologies if this has already been answered, will the SINE player run in VE Pro 7 ?


----------



## Oxytoxine

Does anybody know what the process is If one owns Berlin Inspire 1+2, do I have to repurchase the library in Sine format or somehow register my OT prpducts on their website in order to get access to the Sine version?

Sorry If this has already been answered -searched the thread but could only find that they will port their libraries, but no precise informarion. Furthermore I got lost in listening to JXL brass videos 😁👌


----------



## Leo

nas said:


> I haven't gone through the entire thread so apologies if this has already been answered, will the SINE player run in VE Pro 7 ?


yes.


----------



## Adam Takacs

Oxytoxine said:


> Does anybody know what the process is If one owns Berlin Inspire 1+2, do I have to repurchase the library in Sine format or somehow register my OT prpducts on their website in order to get access to the Sine version?
> 
> Sorry If this has already been answered -searched the thread but could only find that they will port their libraries, but no precise informarion. Furthermore I got lost in listening to JXL brass videos 😁👌


You can import your existing libraries to your OT account later and after that, you will be able to download the Sine version. When the system is ready, OT will notify you via email.


----------



## David Kudell

Oxytoxine said:


> Does anybody know what the process is If one owns Berlin Inspire 1+2, do I have to repurchase the library in Sine format or somehow register my OT prpducts on their website in order to get access to the Sine version?
> 
> Sorry If this has already been answered -searched the thread but could only find that they will port their libraries, but no precise informarion. Furthermore I got lost in listening to JXL brass videos 😁👌


You won’t need to repurchase them again. Orchestral Tools has said they will email folks when it’s time to migrate your libraries to the Sine player. They are going to add the previous libraries into Sine over the coming months.


----------



## Oxytoxine

Thank you very much guys! That's fantastic to hear 😀👍


----------



## MartinH.

OrchestralTools said:


> You can also personalize the round robins



I have a feature request for the future when you port Metropolis Ark 1 to SINE: some sections in that library have round robin samples that either have a delayed sample start (thus messing up the timing of fast rythms if you hit those samples), or samples that have "quirks" in them that might sound lively and organic if you hear them once, but get very irritating if you hear them a lot of times in repetitive note patterns. In Capsule you already could deactivate RR slots, _however _that deactivated _all_ RR samples in that slot for _all _notes, instead of _just _the offending sample for one note. In other words, please please please make it so that RR samples can be deactivated per individual note (or rather per the 2 notes (sometimes 1) that share the same recorded samples) without affecting those RR slots on other notes! I understand this may require some code changes, but imho it would _vastly _improve the usefullness of MA1 to me. 

If I recall correctly, these issues with inconsistent RR samples have been reported to your support team by @bfreepro shortly after the last MA1 patch, roughly a year or so ago, and have been confirmed. Realistically I'll believe it when I see it, that these still get fixed for Kontakt, but for SINE I see a chance that you could put the power to address these issues into the user's hands by improving that functionality _once _in SINE, and have it available to _all_ your SINE libraries automatically. 

I understand that the Kontakt ecosystem must introduce a *lot *of friction for developers to introduce such fixes accross a large number of Kontakt instruments, and it is my hope that SINE will remove most of that friction and enable you to go above and beyond the post-launch support and bugfixes that what you were able to provide before! I was sceptical at first, but now I see a genuine chance for your customers getting a superior user-experience with SINE!


----------



## justthere

I'm glad to see this appearing.

So... am I to understand that when doing a legato transition, the SINE engine goes and gets a legato transition - a "generic" one, at some unspecified volume - and then adjusts its volume in realtime before crossfading it in? No matter what the dynamic of the source _sample_ is, if it's a soft sample it's still the same transition, just played softer? Same with the releases - it turns a release down for softer endings but turns it up for louder ones? 

I ask because the ones in the legato horn demo in demo video part 6 have kind of odd transitions.

Also - when the older libraries (like Berlin Strings) are released in this form, are the old blemishes in them going to have been fixed?


----------



## AEF

Will SINE have any impact on the sound of libraries such as Berlin Strings? Improved legato possible?


----------



## synthetic

How much HD space is required for installation? I need to do some housecleaning.


----------



## korruptkey

Berlin Strings is Beta. Quite possibly it was just one of the first they used to test SINE or possibly the library used in a closed beta. [Edit] Yah looks like it was just a dummy, the Licensed and Installed instruments have a max value of 1.

Also... there's "Layers" in the video...


----------



## Wolf68

please help me, did I miss something in this long thread?.. I am missing more info concerning the sample merge function. I would like to know if a good melting between a string non vibrato and vibrato sample would be possible


----------



## EgM

Seems like today's the day


----------



## Heinigoldstein

Wolf68 said:


> please help me, did I miss something in this long thread?.. I am missing more info concerning the sample merge function. I would like to know if a good melting between a string non vibrato and vibrato sample would be possible


You can merge different mics, but not different articulations.


----------



## OrchestralTools

Hey everyone,

We’ve decided to postpone the release of Junkie XL Brass and the SINE player until tomorrow.

Although the player and library are ready to go, we discovered an online connection issue during final testing today. We need a few additional hours to solve this and ensure a proper download experience.

On the plus side, the pre-order price and masterclass offer will be extended until tomorrow’s release.We hope you understand this decision.
Thank you for your patience, and we’re looking forward to releasing Junkie XL Brass and SINE tomorrow.

Best,

OT Team


----------



## Eptesicus

OrchestralTools said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> We’ve decided to postpone the release of Junkie XL Brass and the SINE player until tomorrow.
> 
> Although the player and library are ready to go, we discovered an online connection issue during final testing today. We need a few additional hours to solve this and ensure a proper download experience.
> 
> On the plus side, the pre-order price and masterclass offer will be extended until tomorrow’s release.We hope you understand this decision.
> Thank you for your patience, and we’re looking forward to releasing Junkie XL Brass and SINE tomorrow.
> 
> Best,
> 
> OT Team




Not a good start....:(


----------



## Floris

Eptesicus said:


> Not a good start....:(



Better a properly working plugin late than a broken one early!


----------



## Eptesicus

Floris said:


> Better a properly working plugin late than a broken one early!



True! Better than having loads of frustrated people who cant connect or download stuff!

Still disappointing though.


----------



## Montisquirrel

OrchestralTools said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> We’ve decided to postpone the release of Junkie XL Brass and the SINE player until tomorrow.



Take all the time you need. Hope everything will be fine tomorrow.


----------



## Consona

Yea, it's just one day, no need to dramatize it. There were kickstarters that got completed years after the announced date. 1 day is nothing.


----------



## purple

I would prefer a delay to a terrible launch. Plus the pre-order is extended and now there are more demos to deliberate over.


----------



## gjelul

purple said:


> I would prefer a delay to a terrible launch. Plus the pre-order is extended and now there are more demos to deliberate over.





Agree, 1 day more or less doesn't make a difference. 

However, wish they had announced the delay before and not let everyone believe that one has to make a purchasing decision by December 15 @ 23:59. How could anyone rely on the next new-product / pre-order deadline?

In the meantime, if they could only stop with these new demos


----------



## purple

gjelul said:


> Agree, 1 day more or less doesn't make a difference.
> 
> However, wish they had announced the delay before and not let everyone believe that one has to make a purchasing decision by December 15 @ 23:59. How could anyone rely on the next new-product / pre-order deadline?
> 
> In the meantime, if they could only stop with these new demos


I think it was an issue that only started happening on launch day, they didn't know about it beforehand.


----------



## gjelul

purple said:


> I think it was an issue that only started happening on launch day, they didn't know about it beforehand.



Of course, these things are bound to happen. However, OT should have planned for it. Never looks good when missing a 'deadline.'


----------



## Babe

Still waiting for Play Pro.


----------



## constaneum

Babe said:


> Still waiting for Play Pro.



Probably after seeing SINE and SA's players, they've decided to hide at one corner and cry.


----------



## zimm83

Kontakt will save everyone........


----------



## Leo

zimm83 said:


> Kontakt will save everyone........


Agreed, but Kontakt is a bit outdated now.. 
on the other hand -
- in Sine I have seen many useful features and great ideas! I like as well Sine GUI (simple, re sizeable).

and it also can help make some good move from "lazy" Kontakt developers to get new ideas.


----------



## Manuel Stumpf

constaneum said:


> Probably after seeing SINE and SA's players, they've decided to hide at one corner and cry.


They might as well sit in their chairs smiling (knowing how much issues new players are inevitably going to cause, and knowing they have already implemented subscription providing steady income).


----------



## jimsession

gjelul said:


> Of course, these things are bound to happen. However, OT should have planned for it. Never looks good when missing a 'deadline.'


yes - always have a backup plan


----------



## Markastellor

Hmmmmm, OT's website is down. Could they be doing some major changes? Are we in for some nice sales? Could it be new announcements? Or could it just be a glitch? Please join me for a moment of silent prayer.


----------



## Mucusman

Maybe it’s that fact that all you guys are refreshing the site so much it’s resembling a denial of service attack!


----------



## jules

Ark 5 ? Time Nano ? Berlin brass 60% off ?  On a side off-topic note, does somebody knows how to add previously OT owned products to the new website ?


----------



## John R Wilson

Markastellor said:


> Hmmmmm, OT's website is down. Could they be doing some major changes? Are we in for some nice sales? Could it be new announcements? Or could it just be a glitch? Please join me for a moment of silent prayer.



Im hoping for some good bundle sales on the Inspires and Arks!!


----------



## AndyP

I like the design of the new homepage.


----------



## Eptesicus

It's happening.jpeg


----------



## zimm83

They return to...... Kontakt.....


----------



## Bernard Duc

StormPhysiX said:


> It' online guys!


Yes, but according to OT, please don't do anything before they say it's ok to do so.


----------



## Loïc D

Whaaaaaat ? 
They're back online with an EastWest logo.

(sorry... had to do this stupid joke...)


----------



## AndyP

This could be a long night.


----------



## OrchestralTools

Last few steps guys... releasing soon!


----------



## OrchestralTools

We are so excited to finally release Junkie XL Brass and SINE! 
We can't wait to hear what you guys think.

And as an introductory offer, you can now buy Junkie XL Brass for €599 via the Junkie XL Brass product page.

www.jxlbrass.com
http://www.getsine.com (www.getsine.com)


----------



## jacobthestupendous

Where do I go to download Sine? The website only has a registration link, which I have already done.


----------



## OT_Tobias

right at the top at getsine.com is a download link. If it does not show, empty your browser cache.


----------



## Henu

Sine keeps insisting I'm offline right away when I start it. I've even made a specific exception to the firewall, but even that isn't helping. Running Win7 Pro, 64 bit, all latest updates.


----------



## Hendrik-Schwarzer

Hey everyone,

here is a little screencast with a step by step guide for starting over:



It also includes some recommendations when it comes to the mic positions.
Enjoy!

Best,
Hendrik


----------



## Hendrik-Schwarzer

Henu said:


> Sine keeps insisting I'm offline right away when I start it. I've even made a specific exception to the firewall, but even that isn't helping. Running Win7 Pro, 64 bit, all latest updates.



Did you try to restart SINE after you did that?


----------



## OT_Tobias

Henu said:


> Sine keeps insisting I'm offline right away when I start it. I've even made a specific exception to the firewall, but even that isn't helping. Running Win7 Pro, 64 bit, all latest updates.


can you please email [email protected] so we can keep track of things like this?


----------



## Henu

Yep, tried to restart several times, didn't help. I'm gonna send you guys more info when I get my kids to sleep, plenty of time then. :D


----------



## GingerMaestro

@OT_Tobias Hi Tobias, congratulations on your release..Is the freebie String Morph Patch available with this, so we can try out the player, before making Purchases ? Thank you


----------



## Lionel Schmitt

The player looks like the kind of player all players should be - a lot of 'player' in that sentence but I'm 100% serious.  

I hope the free library "Layers" will follow soon too...


----------



## OT_Tobias

GingerMaestro said:


> @OT_Tobias Hi Tobias, congratulations on your release..Is the freebie String Morph Patch available with this, so we can try out the player, before making Purchases ? Thank you


thanks! I'm afraid I do not know what you mean by freebie string morph patch...


----------



## jadedsean

Hey @OT_Tobias congrats on the new release, i am currently trying to login but sine player wont accept my password, i tried resetting it but i am waiting a long time for a mail, i have check my spam too. Any suggestions?


----------



## GingerMaestro

OT_Tobias said:


> thanks! I'm afraid I do not know what you mean by freebie string morph patch...


Apologies, I think it was called the Layers Library ? Is JXL Brass the only Library that works with the Sine Player at the present time ? Thank you


----------



## OT_Tobias

Layers will come later!
Yes, at this time, JXL Brass is the only collection that uses SINE Player.


----------



## Technostica

Markastellor said:


> Hmmmmm, OT's website is down. Could they be doing some major changes? Are we in for some nice sales? Could it be new announcements? Or could it just be a glitch? Please join me for a moment of silent prayer.


Okay, I'll stick some John Cage on to cover the silence. Would somewhere between 4 and 5 minutes cover it?


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

So how do I get my licenses into SINE?


----------



## VVEremita

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> So how do I get my licenses into SINE?



"at this time, JXL Brass is the only collection that uses SINE Player."


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

VVEremita said:


> "at this time, JXL Brass is the only collection that uses SINE Player."



That explains a lot!


----------



## davidson

Hendrik-Schwarzer said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> here is a little screencast with a step by step guide for starting over:
> 
> 
> 
> It also includes some recommendations when it comes to the mic positions.
> Enjoy!
> 
> Best,
> Hendrik




Please let the guy in the video know that the native instruments keyboard will work much better if he switches it on.


----------



## Hendrik-Schwarzer

Thanks to all of you for all the great feedback so far – we're really pleased and feeling very relieved!

So moving forward, if you encounter any issues or need help please take advantage of our dedicated SINE support: [email protected]

You can also check out helpdesk.orchestraltools.com – we put together the most frequent questions there.

Beside that, I want to wish you all a great start with Junkie XL Brass. We're excited to hear what you create with it.

All the best,
Hendrik


----------



## AndyP

Is there already a plan when the Arks will be available in sine player?


----------



## artomatic

Just created an account at OT.
How can I include the licenses of previously purchased libraries to "My Licenses" under Account?
I only see Junkie XL Brass.


----------



## Eptesicus

Hendrik-Schwarzer said:


> Thanks to all of you for all the great feedback so far – we're really pleased and feeling very relieved!
> 
> So moving forward, if you encounter any issues or need help please take advantage of our dedicated SINE support: [email protected]
> 
> You can also check out helpdesk.orchestraltools.com – we put together the most frequent questions there.
> 
> Beside that, I want to wish you all a great start with Junkie XL Brass. We're excited to hear what you create with it.
> 
> All the best,
> Hendrik



There are a few really dodgy legato transitions up high ( ie in the top octave of the range) in the horns a4 at high dynamics.


----------



## PhilipJohnston

Just downloaded Sine for a Mac install. Hoping a fellow Mac user can help:

When I double click the Sine player dmg file, instead of launching an installation process, it opens a folder (see screenshot). 

Lots of icons there, not sure what I should be doing next...it's tempting just to drag the Sine Player icon into Applications, but I can't see how that would be a full install. 

How to proceed? (Apart from contacting OT support, which I have, but I figure they're being smashed just now).


----------



## Manuel Stumpf

PhilipJohnston said:


> Just downloaded Sine for a Mac install. Hoping a fellow Mac user can help:
> 
> When I double click the Sine player dmg file, instead of launching an installation process, it opens a folder (see screenshot).
> 
> Lots of icons there, not sure what I should be doing next...it's tempting just to drag the Sine Player icon into Applications, but I can't see how that would be a full install.
> 
> How to proceed? (Apart from contacting OT support, which I have, but I figure they're being smashed just now).


Explained in the video at 1:00:




__





Orchestral Tools - SINE Player - new update available—version 1.0.5


Maybe it’s that fact that all you guys are refreshing the site so much it’s resembling a denial of service attack! :sneaky:




vi-control.net


----------



## PhilipJohnston

Manuel, many thanks, I had missed that video completely somehow.


----------



## Soundhound

I think I'd emailed them about this and they said your libraries will be added, maybe after this launch? Don't quote me. Don't look at me. I'm not even here. 



artomatic said:


> Just created an account at OT.
> How can I include the licenses of previously purchased libraries to "My Licenses" under Account?
> I only see Junkie XL Brass.


----------



## hsindermann

Congrats on the go-live!

I have two problems so far:
- In standalone mode the UI of Sine is a bit messed up - the contents are layered above the menu instead of where the content belongs. Possibly a HiDPI related problem - I'm running it on a 4K screen under Win10.
- I understood we can buy individual instruments - but I don't seem to understand how. I went to the store, selected the only option JXL. There's an entry 'Instruments', but that only lists the instruments included, but doesn't let me select which I want. When I try to buy JXL, there's no option in the process to select instruments either. What am I missing?


----------



## Manuel Stumpf

hsindermann said:


> What am I missing?


Buying individual instruments is not live yet. It has not been published when this will be available.


----------



## G_Erland

hsindermann said:


> Congrats on the go-live!
> 
> I have two problems so far:
> - In standalone mode the UI of Sine is a bit messed up - the contents are layered above the menu instead of where the content belongs. Possibly a HiDPI related problem - I'm running it on a 4K screen under Win10.
> - I understood we can buy individual instruments - but I don't seem to understand how. I went to the store, selected the only option JXL. There's an entry 'Instruments', but that only lists the instruments included, but doesn't let me select which I want. When I try to buy JXL, there's no option in the process to select instruments either. What am I missing?


Single instruments is a gamechanger to come further down the line, but soon, as informed.


----------



## Manuel Stumpf

Oh I correct myself it has been published on OT's FAQ page:
"You’ll be able to buy individual instruments from Junkie XL Brass soon – probably sometime in January 2020."


----------



## Manaberry

Having ARK 1/2 (from NI deals) will be compatible with Sine?


----------



## Real JXL

Dear Friends! The library is out now and we are all standing with you to get you the best experience of playing and programming.... My friend Conrad Pope and my conductor spend many lovely weeks together in New Zealand to record this Peter Jackson Score and we had a 42 piece brass band... Proper Berlioz style... And I would like to share this link with you why I needed this library and hopefully you too!


----------



## Real JXL

Here another reason why I needed this library... Here a cue for Cameron/Rodriguez Alita.... Also Conducted by my friend Conrad Pope....


----------



## Real JXL

And here the last obvious reason... To have the sound to make this... I have it now and I thank OT for their patience and the players to stick with me to get the result that I wanted out of this library...

Me and OT love all feedback you might have and we will look into it for new creative decisions! Thank you for all honesty and real feedback! Its been a great ride! Big Hug! Tom and OT


----------



## Taj Mikel

Does anyone know how to specify which folder you want to download to? SINE only seems to be letting me select entire drives. Thank you!


----------



## blackzeroaudio

Anyone else getting an error when trying to activate SINE?

“No response from web service.”


----------



## jcrosby

blackzeroaudio said:


> Anyone else getting an error when trying to activate SINE?
> 
> “No response from web service.”


Worked for me using the standalone. Did you try authorizing doing that instead of from within the DAW?


----------



## Taj Mikel

I started the download hoping it would allow me to then select a folder, but it didn't, so it's just dropping on my sample drive. Watching the video included in the release email with OT, there doesn't seem to be a way to specify a folder? Can I move them after they finish downloading? I also don't see a way to pause the download and that wasn't covered in the video. ?


----------



## blackzeroaudio

jcrosby said:


> Worked for me using the standalone. Did you try authorizing doing that instead of from within the DAW?



yeah, no luck


----------



## Kony

Real JXL said:


> And here the last obvious reason... To have the sound to make this... I have it now and I thank OT for their patience and the players to stick with me to get the result that I wanted out of this library...
> 
> Me and OT love all feedback you might have and we will look into it for new creative decisions! Thank you for all honesty and real feedback! Its been a great ride! Big Hug! Tom and OT



Love it - all shiny and chrome!


----------



## Andrew0568

I'm on a 13" MBP and the Sine player's interface in Logic doesn't fit on my screen. How can I shrink the window size?


----------



## jcrosby

blackzeroaudio said:


> yeah, no luck



Sorry to hear man :( Hope support gets you sorted quickly...


----------



## Marco

I am having hard time with SINE.. I mistaken originally to select the destination drive for the download and I can't find a way to tell the system to stop downloading patches and change destination folder. It is taking forever. 
If I try to click download the library again, it doesn't ask me to select a new directory. If I try to delete the library from the drive Sine crashes. 
I am also having problems with the patches that I already download.They won't load up giving a couple of different errors one is missing mics file and the other is about Jsonpath. 
I tried to delete the files manually from the drive, uninstall Sine, reinstall it but It automatically reset every download and recreates the folder in the same positions. 
I already sent an email to OT.. but if someone has some hint please HELP ME..

<3 Love

-m-


----------



## Marco

I forgot MBP 2017 Intel i7 2.9 16 Gb Ram OSX 10.13.6

thank you


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Marco said:


> I am having hard time with SINE.. I mistaken originally to select the destination drive for the download and I can't find a way to tell the system to stop downloading patches and change destination folder. It is taking forever.
> If I try to click download the library again, it doesn't ask me to select a new directory. If I try to delete the library from the drive Sine crashes.
> I am also having problems with the patches that I already download.They won't load up giving a couple of different errors one is missing mics file and the other is about Jsonpath.
> I tried to delete the files manually from the drive, uninstall Sine, reinstall it but It automatically reset every download and recreates the folder in the same positions.
> I already sent an email to OT.. but if someone has some hint please HELP ME..
> 
> <3 Love
> 
> -m-


do you have more than once drive? I was downloading individual mics


----------



## gpwilliams

Marco said:


> I am having hard time with SINE.. I mistaken originally to select the destination drive for the download and I can't find a way to tell the system to stop downloading patches and change destination folder. It is taking forever.
> If I try to click download the library again, it doesn't ask me to select a new directory. If I try to delete the library from the drive Sine crashes.
> I am also having problems with the patches that I already download.They won't load up giving a couple of different errors one is missing mics file and the other is about Jsonpath.
> I tried to delete the files manually from the drive, uninstall Sine, reinstall it but It automatically reset every download and recreates the folder in the same positions.
> I already sent an email to OT.. but if someone has some hint please HELP ME..
> 
> <3 Love
> 
> -m-


I had the same problem awhile back downloading Time Micro. Tobias send me this -

just Shift-Click on Download and it will let you choose a new location.

best

Tobias
OT Support
This worked just fine. You might give this a shot.


----------



## Marco

ProfoundSilence said:


> do you have more than once drive? I was downloading individual mics



Yes I use an external hub with 2 drives. I just moved to California so I just have my laptop with me and obviously I had to find a solution to use the internal drives I used to have on my desktop computer (at least for a while).. My internal drive would not be big enough for this library anyway..LoL


----------



## Marco

gpwilliams said:


> I had the same problem awhile back downloading Time Micro. Tobias send me this -
> 
> just Shift-Click on Download and it will let you choose a new location.
> 
> best
> 
> Tobias
> OT Support
> This worked just fine. You might give this a shot.


I am trying it straight away..


----------



## Marco

gpwilliams said:


> I had the same problem awhile back downloading Time Micro. Tobias send me this -
> 
> just Shift-Click on Download and it will let you choose a new location.
> 
> best
> 
> Tobias
> OT Support
> This worked just fine. You might give this a shot.


Nope.. doesn't work for me =(


----------



## Vavastrasza

Orchestral Tools need to ask why SINE requires to much CPU just to download. It frequently hits about 20% for me, which causes the computer fan to come on. I don't appreciate having to listen to this during prolonged downloading.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Vavastrasza said:


> Orchestral Tools need to ask why SINE requires to much CPU just to download. It frequently hits about 20% for me, which causes the computer fan to come on. I don't appreciate having to listen to this during prolonged downloading.


 

what kind of toaster are you running?


----------



## Vavastrasza

It's an Alienware 15 R3 laptop.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Vavastrasza said:


> It's an Alienware 15 R3 laptop.


I'm no doctor, but if there is a browser within sine(the website embed) I wonder if you've got spyware/malware rolling in the background. 

most likely though, it is probably the use of a 7200rpm drive(or slower).


----------



## jimsession

Vavastrasza said:


> Orchestral Tools need to ask why SINE requires to much CPU just to download. It frequently hits about 20% for me, which causes the computer fan to come on. I don't appreciate having to listen to this during prolonged downloading.


on my machine its only around 1% - maybe the player extracted the files and was therefore on a higher cpu load?


----------



## zigzag

Does SINE player support expression map's "Import Key Switches" function in Cubase? Could someone who bought JXL Brass try it? I'll be holding my breath in the meantime =)


----------



## OrchestralTools

We are blown away by the responses to Junkie XL Brass, thank you all so much. 
We're loving what you guys have created so far with it and looking forward to hearing more. We've also been working with the library. 
Here's a new video: Orchestral Tools’ Maxime composed this piece using Junkie XL Brass in SINE on his laptop. Not possible, you say? Watch and see...



Thanks for all feature requests too – you’ve given us so many ideas for the next SINE updates.

And remember, if you encounter any issues or need help, please take advantage of our dedicated SINE support: [email protected]
You can also check out https://slack-redir.net/link?url=http%3A%2F%2Fhelpdesk.orchestraltools.com (helpdesk.orchestraltools.com) – we put together the most frequent questions there.

Best,

OT


----------



## Marco

Vavastrasza said:


> Orchestral Tools need to ask why SINE requires to much CPU just to download. It frequently hits about 20% for me, which causes the computer fan to come on. I don't appreciate having to listen to this during prolonged downloading.




My Sine is using around 1% as well however I have to say that it is true for me as well that the fans are always on. However this is version 1.0.0 I think it is understandable that the software is not totally perfect.


----------



## cjbrett22

Anyone know what time OT support closes? 
They said this morning they were passing my issue with Sine to the developers but I haven't heard anything since.


----------



## benatural

Just a bit of feedback about the SINE player. I think it's a promising start, but I feel like the UX flow is a little muddy.

There are lots of obscured and nested sub menus, some confusing UX path redundancies, and inconstancies from page to page. This does not pertain to the instrument browser, but rather everything else. I feel like with all the things it's trying to do, there is lots of opportunity for streamlining. But as a v1.0 product, it has lots of potential.


Just want to reiterate that this feedback doesn't relate to JXL Brass or it's content, just the new player.


----------



## korruptkey

@OrchestralTools, I know this is what A La Carte is trying to solve, but many of us are still slaves to the evil ISPs, if I downloaded SINE on a virtual machine at work to download the samples... will there be activation problems? I noticed the first screen to login is "Activation", am I effectively activating a license on that virtual machine?


----------



## bvaughn0402

I can't really tell if the player checks for updates and will update itself. If not, that would be a nice feature to add. Most of the better plugins today can check and even start up the update process.

Also, it would be nice to have a better installer for Mac. I've never installed an AU plugin via the Terminal window before. That was weird.

And no real installation guide ... the video was welcomed. But it focused more on Windows (e.g., the use of the Terminal window to install the plugin was never shown or mentioned).


----------



## Soundhound

I just copied the AU component to the components folder. What did I miss? 




bvaughn0402 said:


> I can't really tell if the player checks for updates and will update itself. If not, that would be a nice feature to add. Most of the better plugins today can check and even start up the update process.
> 
> Also, it would be nice to have a better installer for Mac. I've never installed an AU plugin via the Terminal window before. That was weird.
> 
> And no real installation guide ... the video was welcomed. But it focused more on Windows (e.g., the use of the Terminal window to install the plugin was never shown or mentioned).


----------



## bvaughn0402

Maybe not ... I clicked on the EXE file and it opened up Terminal. I did drag the application into that folder, but I don't think it installed the AU plugin.


----------



## KEM

Posted this in another thread but I figured I'd ask here too, I’m using VEP running into Cubase and I want to have each instrument in one SINE instance on VEP with each instrument on its own midi channel in Cubase and with separate outputs, can I do this? Right now I have a separate SINE instance open for each instrument and it’s destroying my memory, I’m getting tons of clicks and pops and I can’t play anything.


----------



## wbacer

On a Mac follow this path and drop the SINE Player.vst into the VST folder.
Drop the SINE Player.component into the Components folder.
Drop the SINE Player into your Applications folder.
This worked for me.
Hope this helps...


----------



## jacobthestupendous

bvaughn0402 said:


> I can't really tell if the player checks for updates and will update itself. If not, that would be a nice feature to add. Most of the better plugins today can check and even start up the update process.
> 
> Also, it would be nice to have a better installer for Mac. I've never installed an AU plugin via the Terminal window before. That was weird.
> 
> And no real installation guide ... the video was welcomed. But it focused more on Windows (e.g., the use of the Terminal window to install the plugin was never shown or mentioned).



I'm with you. The video was not clear on how to do this part. I eventually found in their support better instructions on dragging the .vst and .component files into the right folders as @wbacer showed, and then it was no problem.



wbacer said:


> On a Mac follow this path and drop the SINE Player.vst into the VST folder.
> Drop the SINE Player.component into the Components folder.
> Drop the SINE Player into your Applications folder.
> This worked for me.
> Hope this helps...



Either way, this was a way easier install process than Ark I (my first OT lib) was for me; that one unpacked into a root folder in a weird way that took a *lot* of trouble to disentangle. Fortunately I found their support page to be helpful for that too, because they have a section of what each folder should look like. 

It's worth exploring their support page. They also have a very useful section that tells you the current version of each of their libraries that is good to check every year or two.


----------



## dcoscina

Sine Player doesn’t show up in Logic X even though it does in Cubase 10. I looked in the components folder and it’s there but LPX just doesn’t show it. And I looked into the plug in manager and it’s not even in there...weird. I didn’t buy Junkie Brass so it’s not as if it’s a big deal at this point but I find it odd nonetheless


----------



## wbacer

OT provides a great online help guide for their SINE player but I had to dig for it.
It would have been nice if they would had advertised this upfront or provided a downloadable PDF.
If they did, I sure missed it.




__





General Topics - Orchestral Tools Helpdesk


Common questions and support documentation




orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com


----------



## Olfirf

dcoscina said:


> Sine Player doesn’t show up in Logic X even though it does in Cubase 10. I looked in the components folder and it’s there but LPX just doesn’t show it. And I looked into the plug in manager and it’s not even in there...weird. I didn’t buy Junkie Brass so it’s not as if it’s a big deal at this point but I find it odd nonetheless


You probably just forgot to copy the AU component from the .dmg to the component folder. You have to manually do that (usually an installer will do it for you). I also did not (and will not) buy JXL Brass, but just wanted a look at the player. I wish there was a library for me to try it out ...


----------



## Olfirf

@OrchestralTools Is there a timeframe when other libraries are going to be released? I don't need exact release dates - just would like to know, wether this will take a very long time (a year or more) or be done within a few months ...


----------



## Scalms

bvaughn0402 said:


> I can't really tell if the player checks for updates and will update itself. If not, that would be a nice feature to add. Most of the better plugins today can check and even start up the update process.
> 
> Also, it would be nice to have a better installer for Mac. I've never installed an AU plugin via the Terminal window before. That was weird.
> 
> And no real installation guide ... the video was welcomed. But it focused more on Windows (e.g., the use of the Terminal window to install the plugin was never shown or mentioned).



Also, it would be good to have the option to update or not (so you would get a prompt if you want to update then or later). I just would like to see the user have more control over the downloads, updates, etc, with the option to be able to have it offline from OT if I want to (to avoid clicking on the store, etc, if I don't want to). How and when the player is interacting with the OT command center is important to me. Anyway, I like what I've seen so far, just offering some thoughts for improvement!


----------



## dcoscina

Olfirf said:


> You probably just forgot to copy the AU component from the .dmg to the component folder. You have to manually do that (usually an installer will do it for you). I also did not (and will not) buy JXL Brass, but just wanted a look at the player. I wish there was a library for me to try it out ...


Nope I actually did do first but nada...


----------



## ProfoundSilence

one thing that has become immediately noticeable is lack of ability to automate/cc control many parameters. 

some features I simple dont want to use because I'm not able to automate them. attack/release is a good example - in order to use it the way I'd like it would require I tweak then render that section or individual notes because I cant just automate it


----------



## G_Erland

Small fr from me (i have only just started testing): when you open up the plugin it would be nice if it returned to the banner/work-area you were in when you closed the plugin down.


----------



## Loïc D

Do you guys are able to save a preset and later load it from your plugin instance ?
I've been preparing presets in the standalone version and saved them.
Then I open my DAW (LPX), load Sine plugin and click on "load" preset : the Sine player (and DAW) is stalled. 
No problem if I recall a preset from the standalone version.


I've started to replace some brass on a project I'm working on and JXL is splendid. And totally overwhelming other instruments. 
I'm keeping modulation around 40 for more "classical" sound. From 60 on (all layers active) the bones & tuba are massive. Same for velocity on shorts. One should really be careful & accurate in programming in order to limit loud sound (or deactivate loudest dyn. layers).

Good thing, I don't need my "contrabass tuba", "contrabass trombones" (to beef up low end) instances anymore so actually... I'm saving on precious RAM (MBP late 2013, 16GB RAM here).


On a very busy project, Sine performs very well : responsive, no clicks.
I just wish that the GUI could me even more reduced (mini mode). Even when reduced at maximum, it still takes more estate than a Kontakt instance.


----------



## Geoff Grace

My apologies if this has already been addressed. I'm disappointed to see that AAX isn't listed in the supported formats. Is Pro Tools support planned for future versions; and if so, is it planned for the near or distant future?

Best,

Geoff


----------



## G_Erland

Sorry if im in the wrong thread about this, but I wondered: can you keep jxl on an external ssd an then just plug it in to different computers, anybody got it set up like that?


----------



## nas

LowweeK said:


> I've started to replace some brass on a project I'm working on and JXL is splendid. And totally overwhelming other instruments.
> I'm keeping modulation around 40 for more "classical" sound. From 60 on (all layers active) the bones & tuba are massive. Same for velocity on shorts. One should really be careful & accurate in programming in order to limit loud sound (or deactivate loudest dyn. layers).




This is really what interests me the most. Have you been able to achieve a _convincing_ more "classical sound" or at least something that doesn't sound so hyped and overwhelming ? I really don't like that over processed fffffff sound with massive sections - it just doesn't sound natural to me. So far most of the demos posted seem to be using the upper most layers, processed mics, and in some cases very large sections.

I am relieved to know that the uppermost layers can be switched off if need be and unprocessed mics and smaller sections are provided.


----------



## zigzag

zigzag said:


> Does SINE player support expression map's "Import Key Switches" function in Cubase? Could someone who bought JXL Brass try it? I'll be holding my breath in the meantime =)


**faints**


----------



## G_Erland

Also, ive just installed a few samples to start trying - but i cant find their location on the laptop, anybody figured this out?


----------



## Loïc D

nas said:


> This is really what interests me the most. Have you been able to achieve a _convincing_ more "classical sound" or at least something that doesn't sound so hyped and overwhelming ? I really don't like that over processed fffffff sound with massive sections - it just doesn't sound natural to me. So far most of the demos posted seem to be using the upper most layers, processed mics, and in some cases very large sections.
> 
> I am relieved to know that the uppermost layers can be switched off if need be and unprocessed mics and smaller sections are provided.



Yes, I think it's possible by deactivating the loudest layers. I need to check it again, but also, it seems to free up some RAM too. That said, even the "classical" set of microphones provide with a powerful sound. JXL / AM mics are very processed, it's useful if you want to reach that big Hollywood sound.


I've been setting JXL articulations switch to CC mode and created an articulation set in LPX : it works fine.
Also, reducing the preload buffer to 50ms drastically reduces the RAM footprint while creating no audio glitches.
I've got the plugin on my MBP and the library on an external 2TB USB3 SSD drive (Samsung SSD in Storeva case).


----------



## Heinigoldstein

dcoscina said:


> Sine Player doesn’t show up in Logic X even though it does in Cubase 10. I looked in the components folder and it’s there but LPX just doesn’t show it. And I looked into the plug in manager and it’s not even in there...weird. I didn’t buy Junkie Brass so it’s not as if it’s a big deal at this point but I find it odd nonetheless


Unfortunately there seems to be a problem with the component plugin, maybe depending on the OS version. Because VE-Pro doesn't show the AU version neither. But I'm quite confident, that OT will sort this out very soon.


----------



## dcoscina

Heinigoldstein said:


> Unfortunately there seems to be a problem with the component plugin, maybe depending on the OS version. Because VE-Pro doesn't show the AU version neither. But I'm quite confident, that OT will sort this out very soon.


It’s not a big deal since OT haven’t transferred any licenses from their existing line over to SINE.

I would be a little concerned if I’d bought Junkie Brass but couldn’t use it in Logic however...


----------



## ChrisSiuMusic

dcoscina said:


> It’s not a big deal since OT haven’t transferred any licenses from their existing line over to SINE.
> 
> I would be a little concerned if I’d bought Junkie Brass but couldn’t use it in Logic however...


I got it up and running, just testing some stuff out for now.


----------



## Hendrik-Schwarzer

Hi everyone,

We’ve been reading all your feedback and we’re working on releasing a SINE 1.0.1 update in the next few days.

It’s going to solve the c-2 keyswitch issue and you’ll be able to cancel when downloading.
Also it improves some things on DFD procedure and we’ve built an improved installer for mac OS.

In response to some of your questions, we’ve made the following videos which explain SINE file structure, moving instruments to another computer, and removing/deleting mic positions/instruments/collections.

_Move instruments to another computer + SINE file structure 
_


And

_Removing/deleting mic positions, instruments, and collections _



We’re also continually updating our FAQs Helpdesk page here: helpdesk.orchestraltools.com


Glad you guys are enjoying Junkie XL Brass, and thanks again for all your feedback.
We know SINE is a 1.0 and we will keep improving it over the upcoming time.


All the best,

Hendrik


----------



## dcoscina

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> I got it up and running, just testing some stuff out for now.


What OS are you running? I moved the component into the proper folder and Logic is still ignoring it.


----------



## Geoff Grace

Thanks, *Hendrik*.

The answer to my question was found at SINE Player FAQ:



Orchestral Tools said:


> *Does the SINE player work in Pro Tools?*
> At the time of release, SINE player will only be offered in VST/AU format.
> We hope to have AAX compatibility in the future. If you want to use the SINE player in Pro Tools, you could use it with VEP.



I appreciate the workaround of using Sine with VEP. Here's hoping AAX compatibility happens soon nonetheless. 

Best,

Geoff


----------



## shawnsingh

KEM said:


> Posted this in another thread but I figured I'd ask here too, I’m using VEP running into Cubase and I want to have each instrument in one SINE instance on VEP with each instrument on its own midi channel in Cubase and with separate outputs, can I do this? Right now I have a separate SINE instance open for each instrument and it’s destroying my memory, I’m getting tons of clicks and pops and I can’t play anything.



I know it's not exactly what you're asking for, but it should be totally equivalent to use the multitimbral features of VE Pro to have everything on separate midi channels and separate outputs, but using only one instance of Sine. Maybe it's an acceptable compromise? If you're loading it in VE Pro, then probably you're not planning to fiddle with the Sine player too often anyway?


----------



## KEM

shawnsingh said:


> I know it's not exactly what you're asking for, but it should be totally equivalent to use the multitimbral features of VE Pro to have everything on separate midi channels and separate outputs, but using only one instance of Sine. Maybe it's an acceptable compromise? If you're loading it in VE Pro, then probably you're not planning to fiddle with the Sine player too often anyway?



Exactly, I just want to load it up and forget about it


----------



## Scalms

Hendrik-Schwarzer said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> We’ve been reading all your feedback and we’re working on releasing a SINE 1.0.1 update in the next few days.
> 
> It’s going to solve the c-2 keyswitch issue and you’ll be able to cancel when downloading.
> Also it improves some things on DFD procedure and we’ve built an improved installer for mac OS.
> 
> In response to some of your questions, we’ve made the following videos which explain SINE file structure, moving instruments to another computer, and removing/deleting mic positions/instruments/collections.
> 
> _Move instruments to another computer + SINE file structure
> _
> 
> 
> And
> 
> _Removing/deleting mic positions, instruments, and collections _
> 
> 
> 
> We’re also continually updating our FAQs Helpdesk page here: helpdesk.orchestraltools.com
> 
> 
> Glad you guys are enjoying Junkie XL Brass, and thanks again for all your feedback.
> We know SINE is a 1.0 and we will keep improving it over the upcoming time.
> 
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Hendrik



that was fast, great job! keep it coming


----------



## prodigalson

Some feedback for the player:

1) the labels below each mic signal really should be the buttons that activate them. I keep on clicking them intuitively assuming they toggle on and off the signals only to remember that actually I have to go up to practically the top of the window to a row of “on/off” switch’s floating in space that are not obviously even related to the mic signals

2) The default mic that instruments load with really should be the Tree. As of now, every instrument loads with the Close 1 mic. ??? 7 times out of 10 you’re not going to be using the close mic at all let alone using it on its own! it’s tedious after loading each instrument to have to routinely disable the mic position it loads with and select another

More to come!


----------



## Scalms

prodigalson said:


> Some feedback for the player:
> 
> 1) the labels below each mic signal really should be the buttons that activate them. I keep on clicking them intuitively assuming they toggle on and off the signals only to remember that actually I have to go up to practically the top of the window to a row of “on/off” switch’s floating in space that are not obviously even related to the mic signals
> 
> 2) The default mic that instruments load with really should be the Tree. As of now, every instrument loads with the Close 1 mic. ??? 7 times out of 10 you’re not going to be using the close mic at all let alone using it on its own! it’s tedious after loading each instrument to have to routinely disable the mic position it loads with and select another
> 
> More to come!


Agreed. Also, please include a pause button on the download.


----------



## synthetic

zigzag said:


> **faints**



It took me 10 minutes to set up the keyswitches because they're all basically the same. I made a high brass and a low brass set and I was done. (The rips are the only other difference besides instrument range.)


----------



## matthieuL

prodigalson said:


> Some feedback for the player:
> 
> 1) the labels below each mic signal really should be the buttons that activate them. I keep on clicking them intuitively assuming they toggle on and off the signals only to remember that actually I have to go up to practically the top of the window to a row of “on/off” switch’s floating in space that are not obviously even related to the mic signals



+1 Very good idea


----------



## Loïc D

@OrchestralTools 
1. Could you make rips reactive to either velocity or modulation ?
2. In the mixer, I’d like to be able to change the color.

After several days using the library and replacing Kontakt instances of other libraries, my project runs with a tad less memory and far less CPU-spikes.
Sine seems to be already very resource efficient. 
Can’t wait to see Capsule libraries transfered to it (and the new articulations too).


----------



## jcrosby

Heinigoldstein said:


> Unfortunately there seems to be a problem with the component plugin, maybe depending on the OS version. Because VE-Pro doesn't show the AU version neither. But I'm quite confident, that OT will sort this out very soon.



I've also found a lot of bugs in macos... (10.13). Overall I am able to get it to work in VEP and various DAWs on my system, and once working it's fine, but so far it has been super buggy...


----------



## Si_Withenshaw

prodigalson said:


> Some feedback for the player:
> 
> 1) the labels below each mic signal really should be the buttons that activate them. I keep on clicking them intuitively assuming they toggle on and off the signals only to remember that actually I have to go up to practically the top of the window to a row of “on/off” switch’s floating in space that are not obviously even related to the mic signals
> 
> 2) The default mic that instruments load with really should be the Tree. As of now, every instrument loads with the Close 1 mic. ??? 7 times out of 10 you’re not going to be using the close mic at all let alone using it on its own! it’s tedious after loading each instrument to have to routinely disable the mic position it loads with and select another
> 
> More to come!



+1 to both of these


----------



## ProfoundSilence

LowweeK said:


> @OrchestralTools
> 1. Could you make rips reactive to either velocity or modulation ?



its bottom right. I think it says xfade/vel I cant remember


----------



## richhickey

Another UI challenge in the mixer: The brain groups things _within_ dividers, not on either side of them, so it's very hard to parse:



> s|m s|m s|m s|m s|m s|m



since the dividers _split_ the channels. It breaks the channel alignment and I'm constantly wondering which button is for which channel. You should just leave those vertical lines out as the channels already have (too faint) divider lines.


----------



## Heinigoldstein

jcrosby said:


> I've also found a lot of bugs in macos... (10.13). Overall I am able to get it to work in VEP and various DAWs on my system, and once working it's fine, but so far it has been super buggy...


Yes, it works with VST, but could you also get Component running ?


----------



## zigzag

synthetic said:


> It took me 10 minutes to set up the keyswitches because they're all basically the same. I made a high brass and a low brass set and I was done. (The rips are the only other difference besides instrument range.)


It's not much, but it adds up (and I really hate doing it). I was just interested, if any advancements were made in that area, as it looks like a great new player. I can't wait other OT libraries are transferred to the SINE Player to try it myself.


----------



## novaburst

zigzag said:


> I can't wait other OT libraries are transferred to the SINE Player to try it myself.



I down loaded the new player thinking this had already happen, i thought this was to happen in 2019


----------



## zigzag

novaburst said:


> I down loaded the new player thinking this had already happen, i thought this was to happen in 2019


Only Junkie XL Brass is on SINE Player right now, I think. Other libraries will be added, but an exact release date hasn't been announced yet. Next year probably.


----------



## babylonwaves

Heinigoldstein said:


> Yes, it works with VST, but could you also get Component running ?


the component opens in logic


----------



## novaburst

zigzag said:


> Only Junkie XL Brass is on SINE Player right now, I think. Other libraries will be added, but an exact release date hasn't been announced yet. Next year probably.



XL brass is available but not in parts of sections, what is exiting about this player is it should allow you to purchase what you need from any instrument section and also the type of articulation you desire then gives the option to add more from the same library as and when you need it.

So in truth XL Brass library should have been broken into pieces as the first example of this new approach download, and no real need to purchase the whole XL Brass library.


----------



## Soundhound

After purging, and then playing a few notes, Sine seems to reloadthe entire instrument, rather than the notes/articulation played, as in kontakt. Is this behavior correct?


----------



## Heinigoldstein

babylonwaves said:


> the component opens in logic


mmh, which OS version are you running ? It doesn‘t work here on 10.13 on 3 machines. Neither in Logic nor in VE-Pro


----------



## jcrosby

Heinigoldstein said:


> Yes, it works with VST, but could you also get Component running ?



Yes, although the 1st time loading it I got some kind of cryptic error. The next time I launched VEP it worked fine.

As far as Logic it's working on my machine, however Sine is very crashy and unstable.
(2018 i9 MacBook, 10.13.6)

E.G.

*Logic:*

If I try and save an AU preset Logic hangs and force quit is required. (The preset is there when re-launching Logic but loading it also causes a hang.)
If I try and recall an _otsave_, (sine preset), Logic hangs and force quit is required. (Same story... The preset's there but loading it also causes a hang.)
if I load samples while midi is playing the audio buffer stutters/echos the last note playing before I started loading samples into RAM. Once the patch loads the stuttering stops.
*In Ableton Live & Bitwig:*

Same story. Also, playback stutters when I first hit play if I have more than one instance, (regardless of wether samples are loading during playback.) AU & VST do this in Live, VST in Bitwig.
Not being able to save patches is a real headache... I was hoping to make presets that I can load into each DAW template but not currently possible. Instead I have to screenshot and manually setup each patch.

The upside though is the efficiency... I had one instance playing in VEP with a multi-articulation patch from each instrument, (no solos though), and VEP's CPU meter jumps betwen *1% and 2% *CPU. A Kontakt patch with only two MA patches loaded in it shows *18-19% CPU* in VEP. On a MacBook nonetheless which is nothing short of insane... Kontakt's starting to look like a slug.

Same in Logic... One instance set up the same way, two mics loaded in each articulation and it barely registered on a single core in Logic's meter.

Once the bugs do get sorted I can't wait for them to make MA available for Sine... I should finally be able to do a full orchestral mockup and still run Omnisphere and other synths before having to render anything to audio which is huge... It may be buggy now, but looks great for the future...


----------



## novaburst

jcrosby said:


> The upside though is the efficiency... I had one instance playing in VEP with one articulation from each instrument, (no solos though), and VEP's CPU meter jumps betwen *1% and 2% *CPU.



This is good news


----------



## jcrosby

novaburst said:


> This is good news



Defintiely.. Plus bugs are inevitable with a 1.0 version, not to mention a lot less painful than Play was for the 1st 5+ years.


----------



## babylonwaves

Heinigoldstein said:


> mmh, which OS version are you running ? It doesn‘t work here on 10.13 on 3 machines. Neither in Logic nor in VE-Pro



10.14.6


----------



## babylonwaves

jcrosby said:


> If I try and save an AU preset Logic hangs and force quit is required. (The preset is there when re-launching Logic but loading it also causes a hang.)
> If I try and recall an _otsave_, (sine preset), Logic hangs and force quit is required. (Same story... The preset's there but loading it also causes a hang.)



not here (10.14.6)


----------



## Loïc D

Soundhound said:


> After purging, and then playing a few notes, Sine seems to reloadthe entire instrument, rather than the notes/articulation played, as in kontakt. Is this behavior correct?


So far, Yes. Purge by notes will come later in an update.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

I like how I specifically mentioned that it might be a browser issue and its sounding like it's the source of a lot of crashing.

I wonder if an extremely bare bones browser can be added to the installation so that they can reduce variables


----------



## jcrosby

babylonwaves said:


> not here (10.14.6)



Then there appears to be some compatibility issues with 10.13.6... I've tried this in every DAW and it's an immediate hang with no option but to force quit. And although the AU will work here it's super temperamental and crash-prone in 3 different DAWs. The VST is not really any more stable. Just had it hang in Live on me 3 times in a row during play back.


----------



## jcrosby

ProfoundSilence said:


> I like how I specifically mentioned that it might be a browser issue and its sounding like it's the source of a lot of crashing.
> 
> I wonder if an extremely bare bones browser can be added to the installation so that they can reduce variables


I think you're on to something here. The issues in Live happen when trying to open the GUI. As soon as I try and bring up the plugin in Live, it either freezes or the audio buffer starts stuttering.

If no audio is playing Live will hang if it doesn't succeed in displaying the plugin.

If audio is playing the last note gets stuck in an audio buffer and it starts stuttering.

The last few times have all been after hitting the wrench in Live in hopes of adjusting the mic mix.


----------



## xanderscores

I hope I'm not hijacking this thread, asking this: What is the difference between a polymap with CC set to switch between instruments and the Mono Switch mode? I can't see why I should use a polymap this way. Can someone please help me understand the concept?


----------



## Simon Ravn

Is there no way to save a mix setup, merge it for one instrument and then recall it (and merge it) for other instruments? Seems silly I have to redo it for all instruments


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Simon Ravn said:


> Is there no way to save a mix setup, merge it for one instrument and then recall it (and merge it) for other instruments? Seems silly I have to redo it for all instruments


I haven't attempted to use the save feature, however you could very easily set them all up in one instance and use the mic remote feature and then simply render each mic


----------



## Jack Weaver

Does it really take several minutes to do a mix with just two mics, or is something amiss here?

BTW, I'm mixing with SINE within VEP7.

.


----------



## nas

Jack Weaver said:


> Does it really take several minutes to do a mix with just two mics, or is something amiss here?
> 
> BTW, I'm mixing with SINE within VEP7.
> 
> .



How do you have it setup? Are you using several instances of SINE in several VEP 7 instances? or doing a multichannel multi timbrel in say one instance?


----------



## Heinigoldstein

W


nas said:


> How do you have it setup? Are you using several instances of SINE in several VEP 7 instances? or doing a multichannel multi timbrel in say one instance?


Well, you are rendering a lot of samples. And I think it doesn‘t matter if you use 2 or 10 mics.


----------



## nas

Heinigoldstein said:


> W
> 
> Well, you are rendering a lot of samples. And I think it doesn‘t matter if you use 2 or 10 mics.




Yes I understand that thanks... my question was directed more towards how @Jack Weaver is actually running SINE within VEP 7.


----------



## Jack Weaver

nas said:


> Yes I understand that thanks... my question was directed more towards how @Jack Weaver is actually running SINE within VEP 7.


Hi nas,

Yesterday was my first day of VEP7 after running VEP5 for umpteen years. I upgraded my Mac to Mojave and VEP5 wasn't happening so I took the plunge. 

I had SINE loaded in one VEP7 instance with all 4 trumpet instruments. However (to the best of my knowledge) I was only merging the solo trumpet mics. Indeed, within the SINE folder there is only one instrument that has a file with the new merge file name. So I'm assuming that I only merged one instrument. It took over ten minutes. That doesn't seem either right or effective.

To make matters more interesting, I really don't even know yet how to access and use that mic merged file. Do you know where I would find it?

Thanks

.


----------



## jcrosby

Jack Weaver said:


> Hi nas,
> 
> Yesterday was my first day of VEP7 after running VEP5 for umpteen years. I upgraded my Mac to Mojave and VEP5 wasn't happening so I took the plunge.
> 
> I had SINE loaded in one VEP7 instance with all 4 trumpet instruments. However (to the best of my knowledge) I was only merging the solo trumpet mics. Indeed, within the SINE folder there is only one instrument that has a file with the new merge file name. So I'm assuming that I only merged one instrument. It took over ten minutes. That doesn't seem either right or effective.
> 
> To make matters more interesting, I really don't even know yet how to access and use that mic merged file. Do you know where I would find it?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> .


Not only is it a lot of samples, I've noticed it does two passes. On the first pass it checks for clipping, if it clips it remerges all audio unclipped. Also don't forget it has to compress all of those files in order to cut down on disk space...

The short version is it's not just exporting raw audio files, but doing some pretty complex math along the way, and has a failsafe for clipped audio files....

Sure it could take less time, however I've had stereo bounces from a DAW project take just as long...
Considering this is the first release, although slow, no other sampler does this so the merge time's cool with me, and I'd be surprised if merge times don't improve in a future update.

As far as how you find it, it just shows up as a new mic in the mixer on a new channel as soon as Sine finishes merging. It also automatically mutes your previous mics and enables the merged mic when finished... If you haven't noticed it do the mic swap then there you go... Lossless compression that seamlessly replaced your previous mix with a single mic mix without you noticing in real time.

Next time you open the player you just load the patch and you'll see the merged mix as a new mic option...


----------



## OT_Tobias

Hey folks,

Thank you all so much for your feedback over the first days of SINE Player and JXL Brass.
We are going through all reports and feedback and are already planning the next steps!

Before the holidays, we are happy to release the first maintenance update for SINE Player.

SINE Player 1.0.1 brings the following changes:

Features:

Downloads now can be canceled and SINE Player will delete aborted downloads
SINE Player will not reload into DFD when no samples are changed (= less CPU cycles)
The macOS installation process has been improved
Fixes:

C-2 can now be selected via MIDI
Log Files are now called SINEPlayer.log instead of OTSampler.log
Fixed a rare issue where SINE Player would freeze or crash when switching from Store/MyLicenses to another tab

Download the SINE Player installer from http://www.getsine.com (www.getsine.com) and just install on top of your existing version.

Happy Holidays and all the best from the OT Team!


----------



## nas

OT_Tobias said:


> Hey folks,
> 
> Thank you all so much for your feedback over the first days of SINE Player and JXL Brass.
> We are going through all reports and feedback and are already planning the next steps!
> 
> Before the holidays, we are happy to release the first maintenance update for SINE Player.
> 
> SINE Player 1.0.1 brings the following changes:
> 
> Features:
> 
> Downloads now can be canceled and SINE Player will delete aborted downloads
> SINE Player will not reload into DFD when no samples are changed (= less CPU cycles)
> The macOS installation process has been improved
> Fixes:
> 
> C-2 can now be selected via MIDI
> Log Files are now called SINEPlayer.log instead of OTSampler.log
> Fixed a rare issue where SINE Player would freeze or crash when switching from Store/MyLicenses to another tab
> 
> Download the SINE Player installer from http://www.getsine.com (www.getsine.com) and just install on top of your existing version.
> 
> Happy Holidays and all the best from the OT Team!



WOW - It's barely been a few days and there's already an update. That's impressive and really helps to reassure users that OT is solidly behind this.

Thank you.


----------



## nas

Jack Weaver said:


> Hi nas,
> 
> Yesterday was my first day of VEP7 after running VEP5 for umpteen years. I upgraded my Mac to Mojave and VEP5 wasn't happening so I took the plunge.
> 
> I had SINE loaded in one VEP7 instance with all 4 trumpet instruments. However (to the best of my knowledge) I was only merging the solo trumpet mics. Indeed, within the SINE folder there is only one instrument that has a file with the new merge file name. So I'm assuming that I only merged one instrument. It took over ten minutes. That doesn't seem either right or effective.
> 
> To make matters more interesting, I really don't even know yet how to access and use that mic merged file. Do you know where I would find it?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> .




Hi Jack,

I only just finished downloading all the unprocessed mics today and have started adding JXL Brass into VEP 7. I haven't had a chance to try out the mic merging function yet as Im still finding my way around the SINE player. So far it feels pretty intuitive although as some have commented it does have some quirks that need to be ironed out.

I've also found out that it's not super stable yet and have had a few crashes, so whether it can handle being incorporated into large templates and work trouble free on big projects is still not clear - I think it still needs some more work.

The good news is OT has already posted an update so they are listening and responding to the comments. I expect things will get better.

Once I have a chance to experiment with the mic merging functions I'll report back. For the record I'm on LPX and running VEP 7 on a PC slave.


----------



## OrchestralTools

Hey everyone.
This is the new Junkie XL Brass demo 'Let the Games Begin'


We hope you like it. Thanks so much for all your comments and feedback. We have updated SINE (as Tobias has said) so make sure to download the SINE Player installer from getsine.com and install on top of your existing version.

If you have any issues please reach out to our dedicated support email addresses: [email protected] and [email protected]

Happy holidays from us all here at Orchestral Tools!

Best,

OT Team


----------



## bvaughn0402

How can you tell you have the latest version installed? Is there somewhere to see the version number?


----------



## W Ackerman

bvaughn0402 said:


> How can you tell you have the latest version installed? Is there somewhere to see the version number?



Options-> Advanced Settings -> Sampler Version: 1.0.1

Hopefully in future versions it will automatically phone home and notify when an update is available.


----------



## Eptesicus

nas said:


> Hi Jack,
> 
> I only just finished downloading all the unprocessed mics today and have started adding JXL Brass into VEP 7. I haven't had a chance to try out the mic merging function yet as Im still finding my way around the SINE player. So far it feels pretty intuitive although as some have commented it does have some quirks that need to be ironed out.
> 
> I've also found out that it's not super stable yet and have had a few crashes, so whether it can handle being incorporated into large templates and work trouble free on big projects is still not clear - I think it still needs some more work.
> 
> The good news is OT has already posted an update so they are listening and responding to the comments. I expect things will get better.
> 
> Once I have a chance to experiment with the mic merging functions I'll report back. For the record I'm on LPX and running VEP 7 on a PC slave.



Agreed.

The player has loads of potential. The single most important thing we need is stability though. I would prefer to have that beyond anything else. At the moment there are too many freezes/hangs.

If they nail the stability and can then concentrate on features, it's going to be a great player.


----------



## nas

Eptesicus said:


> Agreed.
> 
> The player has loads of potential. The single most important thing we need is stability though. I would prefer to have that beyond anything else. At the moment there are too many freezes/hangs.
> 
> If they nail the stability and can then concentrate on features, it's going to be a great player.




Agree 100% and the stability is unfortunately not there yet. I was loading my template today and probably out of 12 instances in VEP 7 I got about 4 crashes - just initiating SINE player. So under a heavy load and large template it may not be very reliable - not quite ready for prime time but it has potential.

BTW this is with the latest update of SINE 1.0.1


----------



## G_Erland

Soundhound said:


> After purging, and then playing a few notes, Sine seems to reloadthe entire instrument, rather than the notes/articulation played, as in kontakt. Is this behavior correct?


I believe someone asked this question around here somewhere - and that the reply was that this is how it works in v1 (implying that this will change with updates).


----------



## G_Erland

Can I ask: is this to be concidered an official channel for jxl/sine/OT? Im not getting any emails about updates or anything, should I? Atleast on my phone, the sine update is not visible, and I wouldnt have known if not for a YouTube comment that sent me here..?

Also, and im so far very happy with both the library and sine, so i mean to ask this in a constructive way: does anybodys low tuba staccs sound very phasey at high velocities (edit: ah, i believe its mostly the jxl tree, can this be part of the mix?)? Can there be a reason for it being only me?


----------



## Taj Mikel

OT_Tobias said:


> Hey folks,
> 
> Thank you all so much for your feedback over the first days of SINE Player and JXL Brass.
> We are going through all reports and feedback and are already planning the next steps!
> 
> Before the holidays, we are happy to release the first maintenance update for SINE Player.
> 
> SINE Player 1.0.1 brings the following changes:
> 
> Features:
> 
> Downloads now can be canceled and SINE Player will delete aborted downloads
> SINE Player will not reload into DFD when no samples are changed (= less CPU cycles)
> The macOS installation process has been improved
> Fixes:
> 
> C-2 can now be selected via MIDI
> Log Files are now called SINEPlayer.log instead of OTSampler.log
> Fixed a rare issue where SINE Player would freeze or crash when switching from Store/MyLicenses to another tab
> 
> Download the SINE Player installer from http://www.getsine.com (www.getsine.com) and just install on top of your existing version.
> 
> Happy Holidays and all the best from the OT Team!



Thanks! Do you guys not communicate with your customers via email? I wouldn't have known about the update unless I came to this thread.??


----------



## Eptesicus

nas said:


> Agree 100% and the stability is unfortunately not there yet. I was loading my template today and probably out of 12 instances in VEP 7 I got about 4 crashes - just initiating SINE player. So under a heavy load and large template it may not be very reliable - not quite ready for prime time but it has potential.
> 
> BTW this is with the latest update of SINE 1.0.1



Yeh i just tried the latest update, and im still getting hangs/freezes. Mainly when clearing the articulation list/closing a project.

There is some bug in how it unloads instruments etc i think.

It is pretty flakey.


----------



## G_Erland

Im running it from a t5 ssd. Seems to be that when i first load an articulation/mic theres a short period where it «hangs» and i might have glitches in sound. Second time i load in same session it seems near instant and without drops/glitch. Load time seems very, very much faster than kontakt though...but that might be drive differences as well i suppose. Apart from that Ive had no problems, but i havent tried more than maybe 5-6 instances in a session, and maybe 2 mics on each.. WIN 10, 64Gb ram, Studio One latest v.


----------



## Taj Mikel

I have 12 instances running and crashed 7 or 8 times yesterday. It’s essentially unusable.

I was getting crashes during playback. SINE player was not opened and I wasn’t doing anything in the SINE UI. Windows 10, Cubase 10, 128gb RAM, i9 9900x processor.

Each instance is using the AMXL close and tree mics. Pulling from an m2 drive.

I also experience a pronounced glitch when I first attempt playback, as if SINE hasn’t loaded the samples.

Very disappointed. The sound is great, but that has no value if it crashes the project every 5 minutes.

I feel like SINE was barely ready for distribution and that I paid a hefty sum to test OTs product, and they don’t even email me when there’s an update.

EDIT** I reconfigured the routing in my project thinking maybe it was causing an issue, have not suffered a crash since that time - fingers crossed it wasn’t SINE and I can use JXL! :D

EDIT 2** spoke to soon, just experienced another crash.

EDIT 3** glitches at first playback do not occur when SINE is not in the project.


----------



## Taj Mikel

Definitely seems to be buggy when unloading instruments. As my next step in testing OT's player, I deleted every single track that had SINE on it (12 tracks) - this locked up Cubase for around 45 seconds before it again became responsive. I'll now let it sit in looped playback to see if crashes occur as they have been.


----------



## Nicola74

JXL Brass is a really great library, I am not so happy with the solo instruments, expecially the trombone solo, but the ensembles are wonderful! Unfortunately I, like others, am experiencing several crashes or freezing Cubase in many different situations (adding or removing instances, opening the player while I am playing or it simply stops working after a while for apparently no reason). For now it is almost unusable, but I am sure they will fix the problems very soon


----------



## JyTy

Same here, love the player and the Junkie XL sample library sounds great (at least by playing around with it in the standalone)... But I'm experiencing a lot of issues in Logic as well. I’m working on a computer that is not so packed with RAM so I’m freezing and/or bumping my tracks lots of times. SINE player randomly crashes on all of those cases including when adding it to a track... I’ll wait for a new version before I’ll actually start using it.


----------



## stargazer

Anybody running Sine on macOS 10.12 Sierra? 

The System Requirements says macOS 10.13 or higher, but it seems to work here - downloading and testing briefly atm.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Those using Cubase, if you get time - try using sine on reaper 6. I wonder if it's an asio guard thing or something to do with Cubase's engine...


----------



## shawnsingh

ProfoundSilence said:


> Those using Cubase, if you get time - try using sine on reaper 6. I wonder if it's an asio guard thing or something to do with Cubase's engine...



I've had no problems on Cubase 9.5 on Windows 7. but I'm also only using one instance of Sine player for now, if that makes a difference...


----------



## Nicola74

ProfoundSilence said:


> Those using Cubase, if you get time - try using sine on reaper 6. I wonder if it's an asio guard thing or something to do with Cubase's engine...


I didn't try disabling asio guard for Sine, good advice...finger crossed


----------



## Nicola74

Nope, adding a second instances It freezed Cubase with asio guard disabled for Sine :-( and I have noticed that in the Performance Tab It doesn't show which articulation you are using.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Nicola74 said:


> Nope, adding a second instances It freezed Cubase with asio guard disabled for Sine :-( and I have noticed that in the Performance Tab It doesn't show which articulation you are using.


weird, haven't reinstalled cubase after reformatting been lazy


----------



## prodigalson

i hope everyone experiencing issues are submitting them to OT directly to ensure they register the bugs in order to fix them


----------



## G_Erland

Would someone kindly give me a tip about the poly wheel? I cant get it to make any zones...im using an s88 ni keyboard (i always had this problem with capsule as well, were i couldnt get the crossfader field to map more than 2 articulations using key-presses) cheers!


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Really digging the trombones. Experimenting a little with using 2 mics + reverbs for each

im absolutely in love with the softer side of the cimbassi, and overall the dynamic extremes this library can produce... 

I forgive the sloppy programming, but this is a4 horns + a4 cimbassi sustains. I originally made this using a violins "sketch" patch that I use that uses lass abc legato + violin I soft sustains, decided to add some percussion and ark 4 flute + picc 8va to enhance.


----------



## Supremo

Unless they introduce a normal “purge” function in the Sine player similar to the one existing in Kontakt, the JXL Brass library will remain unusable for me as currently it eats a lion’s share of my RAM and has stability issues inside VEPro environment.

For the moment I regret a bit spending a lot of cash on JXLB (which is a great library per se) on the hype, while I could buy CSB on BF at a much lower price.

Really hope the OT team come up with quick fixes of their Sine player or at least consider reissuing JXLB for the Kontakt player.


----------



## nas

They are definitely on this. I'm corresponding with Tobias at OT support regarding some of these issues and he has also requested to check out my metaframes in VEP 7. So I am very optimistic they well resolve most of these issues - hopefully sooner rather than later.


----------



## Loïc D

Supremo said:


> Unless they introduce a normal “purge” function in the Sine player similar to the one existing in Kontakt, the JXL Brass library will remain unusable for me as currently it eats a lion’s share of my RAM and has stability issues inside VEPro environment.
> 
> For the moment I regret a bit spending a lot of cash on JXLB (which is a great library per se) on the hype, while I could buy CSB on BF at a much lower price.
> 
> Really hope the OT team come up with quick fixes of their Sine player or at least consider reissuing JXLB for the Kontakt player.


For the RAM issue, did you try reducing the preload buffer ? I managed to cut the RAM footprint by 50% without any issue. I’ll even try to reduce it further.
No dropout or stability issue here (MPB late 2013, 16GB RAM, LPX latest release, no VEP).


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Supremo said:


> Unless they introduce a normal “purge” function in the Sine player similar to the one existing in Kontakt, the JXL Brass library will remain unusable for me as currently it eats a lion’s share of my RAM and has stability issues inside VEPro environment.
> 
> For the moment I regret a bit spending a lot of cash on JXLB (which is a great library per se) on the hype, while I could buy CSB on BF at a much lower price.
> 
> Really hope the OT team come up with quick fixes of their Sine player or at least consider reissuing JXLB for the Kontakt player.


? 

4GB RAM (16GB+ recommended)

didn't they just make a video on a lightweight machine? the ram usage isn't significantly different than CSB, its sounding much more like you should have bought ram with that money 

that said, you could probably change your workflow to make it work, by adding each individual articulation per, and purging each. 

itll still load the full articulation as needed, but at least unused articulations would be purged


----------



## ProfoundSilence

zimm83 said:


> ..... reissuing for Kontakt player......
> Man...OT has left Kontakt.
> So it is.
> So have i left....OT.


if I could leave kontakt for sine I'd strongly consider it LOL.


----------



## OrchestralTools

Happy new year guys!

We know we've been quiet so far this year on VI...we're working on another update for the SINE player, but we also have some really exciting news we've been keeping under wraps for some time now...

Keep your eyes peeled.

Best,

OT


----------



## shawnsingh

Ah, now I won't be able to concentrate at work the rest of the day...


----------



## KEM

Very excited!


----------



## Kony

Metropolis Ark 5???


----------



## ism

Time nano? That would be exciting.


----------



## Peter Satera

Do you not think it's layers? Because they shown an early vid on their Facebook. 😀


----------



## ism

Sure. Its just that wild speculation is more fun.


----------



## Peter Satera

ism said:


> Sure. Its just that wild speculation is more fun.


Yass the Snyder Cut!!🤪


----------



## GingerMaestro

Maybe this..? Been quiet for a while on this front..


----------



## artomatic

Subscription...


----------



## zimm83

OrchestralTools said:


> Happy new year guys!
> 
> We know we've been quiet so far this year on VI...we're working on another update for the SINE player, but we also have some really exciting news we've been keeping under wraps for some time now...
> 
> Keep your eyes peeled.
> 
> Best,
> 
> OT


One question only......Can i make a multi in sine ? Nobody has talked about that.....Just like the ones in MA3.... Thanks.


----------



## Loïc D

zimm83 said:


> One question only......Can i make a multi in sine ? Nobody has talked about that...... Thanks.


What do you mean by multi ?
You can have several patches in one instance, distributed over midi channels and Sine plugin comes as multitimbral (32 audio channel if I’m not mistaken).
That’s what I’d call multitimbral.


----------



## zimm83

LowweeK said:


> What do you mean by multi ?
> You can have several patches in one instance, distributed over midi channels and Sine plugin comes as multitimbral (32 audio channel if I’m not mistaken).
> That’s what I’d call multitimbral.


Ah ok thanks...Yes like the symphobia multis or ark3 multis. Patches layered by velocity or key range.....like nkm. ..
Thanks.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

zimm83 said:


> Ah ok thanks...Yes like the symphobia multis or ark3 multis. Patches layered by velocity or key range.....like nkm. ..
> Thanks.


you can layer by range, but I don't think a velocity range filter is currently possible without turning to external midi solutions before it hits sine.


----------



## OrchestralTools

Hey guys,

We are really, really excited to announce this.
Please welcome Layers—a free orchestral instrument!



Layers is a free orchestral instrument that works exclusively with SINE, and an easy way to add orchestral sounds to your compositions and productions. Draw from the finest recordings of strings, woodwinds, and brass. Generate full chords with one-touch simplicity. And seamlessly blend layers of tonal colors and dynamics with your MIDI controller.

Find out more about Layers and download for free at http://www.orchestraltools.com/store/collections/45 (www.orchestraltools.com/store/collections/45)

Download SINE free here: http://www.getsine.com (www.getsine.com)

We are so excited to hear your thoughts on this.
Thanks again for all your support.

Best,

OT Team


----------



## KEM

I love seeing the word “Free”, nothing wrong with that!!


----------



## justthere

EDIT: Sent this to support, as I should have.

In OSX 10.14.5, I can't open the .dmg - the MacOS returns an error that it can't be opened because Apple can't check it for malicious software. Thoughts?


----------



## jacobthestupendous

justthere said:


> EDIT: Sent this to support, as I should have.
> 
> In OSX 10.14.5, I can't open the .dmg - the MacOS returns an error that it can't be opened because Apple can't check it for malicious software. Thoughts?


Same thing happened to me. I had to open the download folder, then rightclick the file and select Open. Then the warning dialog gave me the opportunity to open.


----------



## OrchestralTools

Hey guys,


We're having some issues with our server, just hang in there as we're trying to solve ASAP.
We'll keep you posted about it.

Best,

OT


----------



## Dr.Quest

Thank you so much for this. Very generous! One question, after downloading I can’t seem to locate where it was downloaded to in case I want to move it to the sample drive? Where on the Mac is the Sine Player storage folder for the library? Thanks again!


----------



## jcrosby

OrchestralTools said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> We are really, really excited to announce this.
> Please welcome Layers—a free orchestral instrument!
> 
> 
> 
> Layers is a free orchestral instrument that works exclusively with SINE, and an easy way to add orchestral sounds to your compositions and productions. Draw from the finest recordings of strings, woodwinds, and brass. Generate full chords with one-touch simplicity. And seamlessly blend layers of tonal colors and dynamics with your MIDI controller.
> 
> Find out more about Layers and download for free at http://www.orchestraltools.com/store/collections/45 (www.orchestraltools.com/store/collections/45)
> 
> Download SINE free here: http://www.getsine.com (www.getsine.com)
> 
> We are so excited to hear your thoughts on this.
> Thanks again for all your support.
> 
> Best,
> 
> OT Team



You guys are the best! :D <3


----------



## Si_Withenshaw

Dr.Quest said:


> Thank you so much for this. Very generous! One question, after downloading I can’t seem to locate where it was downloaded to in case I want to move it to the sample drive? Where on the Mac is the Sine Player storage folder for the library? Thanks again!



Default content download locations are mentioned here -






The SINEplayer Data Folder - Orchestral Tools Helpdesk


SINEplayer saves its data in a special system location. In this folder you can find a number of important files, some of which our support staff may ask you to




orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com


----------



## Dr.Quest

Si_Withenshaw said:


> Default content download locations are mentioned here -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The SINEplayer Data Folder - Orchestral Tools Helpdesk
> 
> 
> SINEplayer saves its data in a special system location. In this folder you can find a number of important files, some of which our support staff may ask you to
> 
> 
> 
> 
> orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com


Great, thanks for pointing that out!


----------



## LamaRose

Andrew0568 said:


> I'm on a 13" MBP and the Sine player's interface in Logic doesn't fit on my screen. How can I shrink the window size?



Same issue here... did you ever get an answer/solution? Thanks.


----------



## MauroPantin

Hey guys! First of all thanks for the free library, I'm eager to give it a try!

I just wanted to mention that at the moment I am downloading Layers, but the SINE player has given me a bit of a hard time and thought you might want to know about this. I am posting here since it might also help other users.

You see, the moment it starts downloading, it creates some sort of interaction that renders all other online software useless. It seems to take over the entirety of the available bandwidth, so much so that other software starts asking me if I'm offline or if there's trouble with my connection. 

I am confident this is related to the SINE software, too, because I throttled its available bandwidth with a network monitor and everything went back to normal and downloads continued normally. So you might want to look into it or perhaps provide the user with a quick option to throttle the download speed internally within the SINE software, I couldn't find a way to do it myself other than using external software. 

I am on Windows 10, BTW, and the software I used to limit the SINE download speed is TMeter.


----------



## Dr.Quest

MauroPantin said:


> Hey guys! First of all thanks for the free library, I'm eager to give it a try!
> 
> I just wanted to mention that at the moment I am downloading Layers, but the SINE player has given me a bit of a hard time and thought you might want to know about this. I am posting here since it might also help other users.
> 
> You see, the moment it starts downloading, it creates some sort of interaction that renders all other online software useless. It seems to take over the entirety of the available bandwidth, so much so that other software starts asking me if I'm offline or if there's trouble with my connection.
> 
> I am confident this is related to the SINE software, too, because I throttled its available bandwidth with a network monitor and everything went back to normal and downloads continued normally. So you might want to look into it or perhaps provide the user with a quick option to throttle the download speed internally within the SINE software, I couldn't find a way to do it myself other than using external software.
> 
> I am on Windows 10, BTW, and the software I used to limit the SINE download speed is TMeter.


I think I noticed this as well. It seemed my other things using internet slowed to a crawl but Sine was cruising along.


----------



## xanderscores

I had already used SINE for JXL Brass, but it also works out great with Layers and it's really fun to use. I haven't had any problems installing and using it, but I'm still finding my way to relocating my samples. That's something OT could have made easier or more intuitive. Otherwise great stuff that I can imagine using despite the fact that I own quite a few of their Kontakt libraries already. As a relative newcomer in the world of OT samples I'm still very impressed. If only their pricing was more reasonable. I already see myself going broke, ha ha.


----------



## OrchestralTools

Hey guys,

We're still working hard on an update for SINE, but make sure if you run into any issues, to email our dedicated support team. This helps us solve things quicker: [email protected]

One of the main reasons we wanted to build SINE was to make composing easier.
We're so excited to finally announce that the *Download á la Carte feature* is now available! This was at the top of our feature list when we were building SINE. It offers a new level of freedom to you—instead of buying the entire Junkie XL Brass collection, you can now purchase the library’s single instruments individually.



As we add libraries to SINE, this feature will become available for all collections.

*The single instruments in Junkie XL Brass are priced between $56 – $94, and available via the SINE Player.*

We're looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this.
Thanks again for all your support.

Best,

OT Team


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

As a frenchie I’d just like to say it’s « à la carte »


----------



## Consona

OrchestralTools said:


> *$56 – $94*


All I see is *€€€*.


----------



## gst98

OrchestralTools said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> We're still working hard on an update for SINE, but make sure if you run into any issues, to email our dedicated support team. This helps us solve things quicker: [email protected]
> 
> One of the main reasons we wanted to build SINE was to make composing easier.
> We're so excited to finally announce that the *Download á la Carte feature* is now available! This was at the top of our feature list when we were building SINE. It offers a new level of freedom to you—instead of buying the entire Junkie XL Brass collection, you can now purchase the library’s single instruments individually.
> 
> 
> 
> As we add libraries to SINE, this feature will become available for all collections.
> 
> *The single instruments in Junkie XL Brass are priced between $56 – $94, and available via the SINE Player.*
> 
> We're looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this.
> Thanks again for all your support.
> 
> Best,
> 
> OT Team





In a post a while ago, someone from OT answered a question and said that buying à la carte would not be more expensive than buying as a whole. It's looking pretty expensive to buy seperately now though. Well 40%. Pretty sure they also said you didn't have to buy mic positions you didn't want. Will upgrade prices be more fiar?


----------



## KallumS

OrchestralTools said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> We're still working hard on an update for SINE, but make sure if you run into any issues, to email our dedicated support team. This helps us solve things quicker: [email protected]
> 
> One of the main reasons we wanted to build SINE was to make composing easier.
> We're so excited to finally announce that the *Download á la Carte feature* is now available! This was at the top of our feature list when we were building SINE. It offers a new level of freedom to you—instead of buying the entire Junkie XL Brass collection, you can now purchase the library’s single instruments individually.
> 
> 
> 
> As we add libraries to SINE, this feature will become available for all collections.
> 
> *The single instruments in Junkie XL Brass are priced between $56 – $94, and available via the SINE Player.*
> 
> We're looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this.
> Thanks again for all your support.
> 
> Best,
> 
> OT Team




Are my current licenses meant to be shown in SINE Player? So far it says I have no licenses, other than Layers.


----------



## Rich4747

Really hope this new Sine player becomes rock solid and smooth but so far its crashed Cubase a bunch here. I can imagine is got to be very hard to bring out new software and I wish OT the best but I don't beta test. The al carte pricing seems high to me. imo


----------



## ProfoundSilence

gst98 said:


> In a post a while ago, someone from OT answered a question and said that buying à la carte would not be more expensive than buying as a whole. It's looking pretty expensive to buy seperately now though. Well 40%. Pretty sure they also said you didn't have to buy mic positions you didn't want. Will upgrade prices be more fiar?


IIRC, 1.) they said you could download the mic positions you wanted - other people were the ones extending that to thinking the mics themselves were on sale. as far as I know, OT has never actually backed that up. 2.) I also don't recall OT saying it would ever be the same price buying separately. I remember hearing terms like fair upgrade pricing was planned, but never had I ever heard them say it would be the same price. If that were the case most of us would have never bought the entire library - so that entire concept seems ridiculous.


----------



## xanderscores

I agree. The "purchase à la carte" feature doesn't make sense if you're going to buy the whole library. I, for instance, bought Metropolis Ark 1 because of the choir recently, and though I will certainly make use of the other instruments every once in a while, I would clearly have preferred to buy the choir only.

As much as mic positions are concerned: OT clearly stated that mic positions are optional for download, not for purchase. I'm sure I've read that in one of the threads around here.

And as for the stability: I know first-hand how hard it is to make something like this work flawlessly on every platform. Have a little patience. On my PC (Windows, Cubase) SINE works pretty well, at least stable enough to do some serious composing. I've had more bugs with apps and plug-ins that have been around for months and years, and SINE has only been released a few weeks ago! I have deep respect for the quality and stability that it already has at this early stage.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

gst98 said:


> Yes I found it hard to believe at the time that the pricing would be truely “fair”.



what is "fair"?


cinebrass 12 horns = 99$ 
cinesamples 90's retro trumpets = 149$
cinebrass descant horn = 149$
talos 12 horns = 249$
talos low brass = a single 12 player brass ensemble(one instrument) for 199$
trailer brass = 10 horns, 10 trombones, and a 3tuba+3cimb low brass 249$
century solo brass = 7 solo instruments for 398$

I can't see individual pricing because I own it, but based on what has been shared within this very thread, and that JXLB is much deeper sampled than most if not all of the instruments listed in terms of dynamic layers, round robins, articulations, and microphones - I think it's actually quite generous compared to the competition.


----------



## gst98

ProfoundSilence said:


> what is "fair"?
> 
> 
> cinebrass 12 horns = 99$
> cinesamples 90's retro trumpets = 149$
> cinebrass descant horn = 149$
> talos 12 horns = 249$
> talos low brass = a single 12 player brass ensemble(one instrument) for 199$
> trailer brass = 10 horns, 10 trombones, and a 3tuba+3cimb low brass 249$
> century solo brass = 7 solo instruments for 398$
> 
> I can't see individual pricing because I own it, but based on what has been shared within this very thread, and that JXLB is much deeper sampled than most if not all of the instruments listed in terms of dynamic layers, round robins, articulations, and microphones - I think it's actually quite generous compared to the competition.



Okay fine, in comparison to others, it's far from the worst. it probably artificially worse because you can buy horns in 4 different sizes (which most would only need 2 of). The big thing is that OT rarely do sales and discounts. Cinebrass 12 horn was on sale for around £48 with tax, comapred to £96 for JXL. And you're right I'm sure that's reasonable for the extra mics and artics etc...


----------



## xanderscores

gst98 said:


> ... but a 40% mark up seems very steep. 75% if you bought it on sale now.



You could see it differently. You could say buying the collection as a whole equals a 40% discount. 
Seriously, I see your point. Fair pricing is something that eludes reasoning. I have to admit, I find OT samples very expensive, too. For the same reasons you do. I've been waiting half a year for something that even comes close to a discount, but apart from pre-ordering JXL Brass, nada. And there's no discount for loyal customers either. You can spend thousands of bucks, no special offer, no discount, no package-deals. That doesn't feel right, even if you can reason it with quality and all.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

gst98 said:


> Okay fine, in comparison to others, it's far from the worst. it probably artificially worse because you can buy horns in 4 different sizes (which most would only need 2 of). The big thing is that OT rarely do sales and discounts. Cinebrass 12 horn was on sale for around £48 with tax, comapred to £96 for JXL. And you're right I'm sure that's reasonable for the extra mics and artics etc...


Cinebrass CORE + PRO + Descant horn = 60gb on disc. 

Cinebrass 12 horns is 3 articulations - legato + 1 short articulation + muted sustain

lol


----------



## Eptesicus

Yeh i don't get the criticism on individual pricing. It should have been obvious that individual instruments would be more expensive when compared with the whole bundle.

Also, as has been pointed out, some of the individual instruments are still good value.

Where else can you get a solo trumpet or horn with that many articulations and mic positions for ~$70?

If they divided it up based on the discounted bundle price (ie so it all added up to the same) all the single instruments would be ridiculously cheap in comparison to other developers.

There has to be a an incentive of a few hundred dollars to make the bundle worthwhile.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

xanderscores said:


> You could see it differently. You could say buying the collection as a whole equals a 40% discount.
> Seriously, I see your point. Fair pricing is something that eludes reasoning. I have to admit, I find OT samples very expensive, too. For the same reasons you do. I've been waiting half a year for something that even comes close to a discount, but apart from pre-ordering JXL Brass, nada. And there's no discount for loyal customers either. You can spend thousands of bucks, no special offer, no discount, no package-deals. That doesn't feel right, even if you can reason it with quality and all.



OT isn't as hip to the sales fever everything-is-actually-40%-of-its-value-as-long-as-you-buy-it-at-the-right-time-of-the-year race to the bottom of most developers. Most of us who actually own almost their entire catalogue appreciate that. 

I paid 99$ for lexicon MXP only to find out that it was also on sale for 33$. All it did was piss me off. And while I'm not mad when people got those awesome native instrument deals or anything - I'm happy they aren't 2-3 times a year. OT isn't in the race to the bottom, nor does it aim to be economical - it's more of a luxury library. You might find them expensive, but that's okay. If you purchased something like berlin strings - you'd realize absolutely 0 corners were cut. 

Going back though libraries like SSO i can't un-hear how many patches are 2 dynamic layers - and only a few round robins. Berlin percussion has some instruments with literally 7 dynamic layers. Berlin strings(without the expansion) has literally 37 violin I articulations. With the special bow expansions, and the sound effects expansion it's something silly like 90 articulations. You'd have to use program changes to access them all - because you wouldn't have enough keys on an 88 key to trigger them, and still play the full range of the instrument even with octave shifting buttons. 

JXL brass is quite a different level of sampling compared to berlin brass, and while it few articulations - it has more dynamic layers - and quite obviously is sonically different with different focuses. But quite simply, these are flagship products. the Arks feel like budget toolkits in a way, but the berlin series(and hopefully) the JXL line will all continue to be top notch


----------



## Lionel Schmitt

Rich4747 said:


> Really hope this new Sine player becomes rock solid and smooth but so far its crashed Cubase a bunch here. I can imagine is got to be very hard to bring out new software and I wish OT the best but I don't beta test. The al carte pricing seems high to me. imo


Same here.
I wanted to do a little test track with Layers, which I loved. But after only 30 minutes I had to cancel the work because there were a ton of hickups and quick freezes until it then completely crashed upon opening an loaded instance. 
After loading up the backup project it only lasted 1 minute. Then it crashed again. I'd probably be crying in the corner if I'd have something with a price tag for Sine.


----------



## Eptesicus

DarkestShadow said:


> Same here.
> I wanted to do a little test track with Layers, which I loved. But after only 30 minutes I had to cancel the work because there were a ton of hickups and quick freezes until it then completely crashed upon opening an loaded instance.
> After loading up the backup project it only lasted 1 minute. Then it crashed again. I'd probably be crying in the corner if I'd have something with a price tag for Sine.



Yeh, its massively unstable.



Rich4747 said:


> Really hope this new Sine player becomes rock solid and smooth but so far its crashed Cubase a bunch here.



Me too! Its the biggest issue for me right now.


----------



## gst98

ProfoundSilence said:


> Cinebrass CORE + PRO + Descant horn = 60gb on disc.
> 
> Cinebrass 12 horns is 3 articulations - legato + 1 short articulation + muted sustain
> 
> lol



the 8dio style of 70% sale which I think you're getting at does bother me. Seems to cheapen the brand. but Spitfire find a nice balance of sale frequecnies.

yeah but do you need all the mics? no. Are the Piano sounds in the 300gb HZ piano library any better than a 250mb patch in a Nord? Or lets make it fair and comapre to CinePiano which is only 10gb. 
Most of the time devs use the sample library size as a justfication and marketing tool. If they make an 850gb library they can also sell you a 1tb SSD for £250!

how about this though - the upgrade price to full JXl brass should come out as the same as the list price? I think that would only be fair. if you're going upgrade to the full version should you be punished for buying certain parts earlier?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

gst98 said:


> the 8dio style of 70% sale which I think you're getting at does bother me. Seems to cheapen the brand. but Spitfire find a nice balance of sale frequecnies.
> 
> yeah but do you need all the mics? no. Are the Piano sounds in the 300gb HZ piano library any better than a 250mb patch in a Nord? Or lets make it fair and comapre to CinePiano which is only 10gb.
> Most of the time devs use the sample library size as a justfication and marketing tool. If they make an 850gb library they can also sell you a 1tb SSD for £250!
> 
> how about this though - the upgrade price to full JXl brass should come out as the same as the list price? I think that would only be fair. if you're going upgrade to the full version should you be punished for buying certain parts earlier?



Actually, microphone positions are pretty crucial to a good mix, and allow you to really dial in the correct depth + clarity. And in this particular case - the array of mics make much more sense to any user because you can merge those microphones into one.


----------



## gst98

xanderscores said:


> You could see it differently. You could say buying the collection as a whole equals a 40% discount.
> Seriously, I see your point. Fair pricing is something that eludes reasoning. I have to admit, I find OT samples very expensive, too. For the same reasons you do. I've been waiting half a year for something that even comes close to a discount, but apart from pre-ordering JXL Brass, nada. And there's no discount for loyal customers either. You can spend thousands of bucks, no special offer, no discount, no package-deals. That doesn't feel right, even if you can reason it with quality and all.



The thing I find weird is, as a student, EDU discount is 20% whilst the pre-order was 25% and the intro was 20%. Hardly a student discount if everyone else can get it for the same of cheaper. Same with spitfire. I appreciate that devs give us EDU discounts, but there is little point if spitfire give 40% and 50% out twice a year.

Also no word on whether EDU applies to these a la carte options.


----------



## gst98

ProfoundSilence said:


> Actually, microphone positions are pretty crucial to a good mix, and allow you to really dial in the correct depth + clarity. And in this particular case - the array of mics make much more sense to any user because you can merge those microphones into one.


yes of course, I was more getting at why do you need 10-20 mics as opposed to 3 or 5? I think Alan Meyson did some great mixes all without a bottle mic. But the merge is a brilliant feature.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

gst98 said:


> how about this though - the upgrade price to full JXl brass should come out as the same as the list price? I think that would only be fair. if you're going upgrade to the full version should you be punished for buying certain parts earlier?



the opposite is true. if that's the case - why by the bundle at all? why not use what you need when you need it, and buy the rest when you feel like it. I have no idea when I'll use 12 trombones, that could be money that just sits in my pocket for 2 years instead.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

gst98 said:


> yes of course, I was more getting at why do you need 10-20 mics as opposed to 3 or 5? I think Alan Meyson did some great mixes all without a bottle mic. But the merge is a brilliant feature.


i think 6 microphones is ideal, 2 different close, an ORTF or mid mic, tree, amb surround. 

with the tree amb and surround microphones you can effectively place the width, and depth - and with the ortf + 2 close mics, you can blend back in the presence and punch.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Short demonstration on why having microphones is useful. 

I use a short example where I take a reference mix, and sculpt the sound I want - starting first with the position in 3d space - followed by the blend of close mics that best match the tone and clarity that I need - before blending the "close" blend back into the mix. 

im not handy with keyswitching - and I kind of just played random stuff, but you get the point.


----------



## gst98

ProfoundSilence said:


> the opposite is true. if that's the case - why by the bundle at all? why not use what you need when you need it, and buy the rest when you feel like it. I have no idea when I'll use 12 trombones, that could be money that just sits in my pocket for 2 years instead.




I get where you're coming from, but If you buy just one type of each instrument then you are already at almost 500 euros compared to the 599 current price.

buying a la carte is 1051 euros. So if you dont want 12 bones or a solo trumpet, you are still better off buying the bundle. I think it only works if you want 1 or two instruments. 


more important though, are you enjoying it? I'm using hollywood brass and I love the horns so much, and all the legatos really. But find staccatos on trombones a bit lackluster, and maybe trumpets stacctos are a bit harsh too. It amazes me the HWB can do the lud and the soft so well. How does JXL compare? can it do the berlin brass kind of soft stuff?


----------



## Eptesicus

gst98 said:


> more important though, are you enjoying it? I'm using hollywood brass and I love the horns so much, and all the legatos really. But find staccatos on trombones a bit lackluster, and maybe trumpets stacctos are a bit harsh too. It amazes me the HWB can do the lud and the soft so well. How does JXL compare? can it do the berlin brass kind of soft stuff?



Yes, it can go very soft.

The trombones are on another level compared with HWB. I have HWB and whilst some of it is great, some of it, as you say, is a bit lackluster.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

gst98 said:


> I get where you're coming from, but If you buy just one type of each instrument then you are already at almost 500 euros compared to the 599 current price.
> 
> buying a la carte is 1051 euros. So if you dont want 12 bones or a solo trumpet, you are still better off buying the bundle. I think it only works if you want 1 or two instruments.
> 
> 
> more important though, are you enjoying it? I'm using hollywood brass and I love the horns so much, and all the legatos really. But find staccatos on trombones a bit lackluster, and maybe trumpets stacctos are a bit harsh too. It amazes me the HWB can do the lud and the soft so well. How does JXL compare? can it do the berlin brass kind of soft stuff?



it actually goes softer and louder than berlin mostly with the exception of the trumpets. I know I can make a mic mix and tweak the trumpets to my liking, but it'll be the most effort to get the sound I want - but I think most of it comes from the attack that I don't like. 

I could play around with it and a really "Hollywood" sounding setup all day.

heres some improv with some LASS + berlin strings layered and a4 horns. 
you'll hear what I mean by soft AND power - and I completely disable the "dynamic range" that's artificially added.


----------



## pawelmorytko

ProfoundSilence said:


> Short demonstration on why having microphones is useful.
> 
> I use a short example where I take a reference mix, and sculpt the sound I want - starting first with the position in 3d space - followed by the blend of close mics that best match the tone and clarity that I need - before blending the "close" blend back into the mix.
> 
> im not handy with keyswitching - and I kind of just played random stuff, but you get the point.



is that Jedi fallen order by any chance? Really sounds like the main theme!


----------



## ProfoundSilence

pawelmorytko said:


> is that Jedi fallen order by any chance? Really sounds like the main theme!


haven't played it - the reference I used at the start was from the last jedi OST. everything else was my hands doing random stuff, while I completely failed to play a pattern of keyswitches that made any sense phrase wise XD

I track everything with either a sustain patch or a staccato patch and add the key switches after.


----------



## gst98

ProfoundSilence said:


> it actually goes softer and louder than berlin mostly with the exception of the trumpets. I know I can make a mic mix and tweak the trumpets to my liking, but it'll be the most effort to get the sound I want - but I think most of it comes from the attack that I don't like.
> 
> I could play around with it and a really "Hollywood" sounding setup all day.
> 
> heres some improv with some LASS + berlin strings layered and a4 horns.
> you'll hear what I mean by soft AND power - and I completely disable the "dynamic range" that's artificially added.





Wow it really does sound great. I was worried it was gonna be great at the loud and suck on the quiet side. Does seem like an amazing all round brass library. Seems like if you get JXL brass there very little you'd need berlin for then.


----------



## Consona

gst98 said:


> buying a la carte is 1051 euros


+VAT

So it's €1261 here.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

gst98 said:


> Wow it really does sound great. I was worried it was gonna be great at the loud and suck on the quiet side. Does seem like an amazing all round brass library. Seems like if you get JXL brass there very little you'd need berlin for then.


berlin still has individual players, and more articulations. 

on the "JXL brass?" thread I actually linked an example using berlin trumpet ensemble + JXL 4horns. 

I've been back and forth between BWW legacy and BWW revive, as well as between all berlin strings, or a LASS berlin hybrid. 

I think the larger section sizes sound much more appropriate with JXLB - but if I use the lass layering with custom berlin multis I also am limited by the lowest common denominator when it comes to articulations(LASS has a very small amount in comparison). That said, divisi always sounded gorgeous to me. Truth be told, if I could just download it instead of have to get some harddrive, I'd try HWS diamond to pair with BS instead of LASS.

You can be sure, as soon as Berlin brass is loaded into SINE, I'll probably just layer them - since you can set up nearly identical articulations anyways.


----------



## Manuel Stumpf

ProfoundSilence said:


> Short demonstration on why having microphones is useful.



The subtitle to this video could be:
How much RAM the new Mic Merge feature in SINE will save me.


----------



## Manuel Stumpf

Do we know if there will be an upgrade path from individual instruments to the full library (with a discount because you already have some of the content)?
If there is: all the calculations above are invalid because noone would ever buy all instruments individually but upgrade to the bundle as soon as a certain discount is reached.

The first one having bought an individual instrument could possibly check that and report back here


----------



## gst98

Manuel Stumpf said:


> Do we know if there will be an upgrade path from individual instruments to the full library (with a discount because you already have some of the content)?
> If there is: all the calculations above are invalid because noone would ever buy all instruments individually but upgrade to the bundle as soon as a certain discount is reached.
> 
> The first one having bought an individual instrument could possibly check that and report back here


I emailed them so we'll see. Not sure why they wouldn't write this up somewhere.


----------



## jbuhler

Manuel Stumpf said:


> Do we know if there will be an upgrade path from individual instruments to the full library (with a discount because you already have some of the content)?
> If there is: all the calculations above are invalid because noone would ever buy all instruments individually but upgrade to the bundle as soon as a certain discount is reached.
> 
> The first one having bought an individual instrument could possibly check that and report back here


I've asked about this twice in the various threads and haven't yet got a reply.


----------



## jbuhler

gst98 said:


> I emailed them so we'll see. Not sure why they wouldn't write this up somewhere.


Let us know if you hear anything!


----------



## OrchestralTools

Hey guys,

Junkie XL is doing a LIVE Q&A from our booth at NAMM in 1 hour!

Make sure you tune in and catch it on our facebook page: www.facebook.com/orchestraltools



Remember, if you run into any issues please contact our dedicated support team at [email protected]. We're also working on a new update for SINE–we'll keep you posted on when it will be available.

Best,

OT


----------



## gst98

So I got a reply from OT. 

Buying individually and then upgraded to the full porduct WILL cost more than buying as one. Which is obviously a little annoying.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

gst98 said:


> So I got a reply from OT.
> 
> Buying individually and then upgraded to the full porduct WILL cost more than buying as one. Which is obviously a little annoying.



that's exactly how it works 90% of the time with any product. 

otherwise there would be no reason to buy the bundle in the first place - you could just buy what you need and upgrade later.


----------



## gst98

ProfoundSilence said:


> that's exactly how it works 90% of the time with any product.
> 
> otherwise there would be no reason to buy the bundle in the first place - you could just buy what you need and upgrade later.


 

I wouldn't say that at all. I bought 3 soundtoys plugins and then upgraded to the rest and that actually cost less than the whole bundle. Synthmaster have a great upgrade plan just like this. I think what you are talking about is, for example, buying Fab filter Q3, and then upgrading to a whole bundle. obviously most people aren't going to give you the full rpice of Q3 off the bundle price. But this is a product that has been divided up, you aren't bundling products together. 

If you eamil devs they will usually honour the same price you paid to upgrade to the full library. Look at the new Audio Imperia Nucleus Lite which ahs done just this.

I get that you charge extra for individual parts, obivously, but charging extra for an upgrade punish people who don't want to pay for it all in one go defeats half the point of an a la Carte system.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

gst98 said:


> I wouldn't say that at all. I bought 3 soundtoys plugins and then upgraded to the rest and that actually cost less than the whole bundle. Synthmaster have a great upgrade plan just like this. I think what you are talking about is, for example, buying Fab filter Q3, and then upgrading to a whole bundle. obviously most people aren't going to give you the full rpice of Q3 off the bundle price. But this is a product that has been divided up, you aren't bundling products together.
> 
> If you eamil devs they will usually honour the same price you paid to upgrade to the full library. Look at the new Audio Imperia Nucleus Lite which ahs done just this.
> 
> I get that you charge extra for individual parts, obivously, but charging extra for an upgrade punish people who don't want to pay for it all in one go defeats half the point of an a la Carte system.


that doesn't defeat the point of a la carte at all. 

it's a la carte, not a payment plan... "punish the people who don't want to pay for it all in one go" has nothing to do with that pricing format. Have you ever went to a restraint and pulled out the a la carte section and said "I'd like the steamed asparagus... I eventually want the steak dinner, but I'll buy the side of asparagus and baked potato I'll buy tomorrow. Then I assume you'll let me pay the difference for the steak on Thursday."

OT has still become affordable to buy pieces at a time.


----------



## gst98

ProfoundSilence said:


> that doesn't defeat the point of a la carte at all.
> 
> it's a la carte, not a payment plan... "punish the people who don't want to pay for it all in one go" has nothing to do with that pricing format. Have you ever went to a restraint and pulled out the a la carte section and said "I'd like the steamed asparagus... I eventually want the steak dinner, but I'll buy the side of asparagus and baked potato I'll buy tomorrow. Then I assume you'll let me pay the difference for the steak on Thursday."
> 
> OT has still become affordable to buy pieces at a time.


I didn't say it defeats the point. I said it defeats half the point. And yes, half the point is so that you don't have to pay the full price in one go. thats quite obvious, and was said in promtion and interviews. (granted, I think when JXL said on a live stream it would be no more expensive he probably didn't mean to say it or things changed since. After all, he is not an employee of OT)


A la carte is just a marketing name, don't take it so literally. A la carte, at least in the traditinally high-end restaurant sense, never expects you to buy anything less. It is a more expenive option that gives you more choice, but its not a way for you to avoid a 5 course meal. especailly if you want to compare OT to a luxry brand. The whole point of a la carte is that mixes menus, and would be like taking trumpets from berlin, and celli from inspire etc...

This buying scheme is like ordering half the compoents of a meal.


----------



## fretti

Anyone here knows whether or not (or if) you get those 2 OT Vouchers when you bought BOI/BOI 2 during the Native Instruments sale last year (so not bought via OTs site directly)?
Because they can also be applied on Pre-Order sales, and a 100€ off the already 20% discounted JXL Brass would make it much more appealing...


----------



## gst98

fretti said:


> 100€ off the already 20% discounted JXL Brass would make it much more appealing...



I think I heard someone say they did that.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

idk


fretti said:


> Anyone here knows whether or not (or if) you get those 2 OT Vouchers when you bought BOI/BOI 2 during the Native Instruments sale last year (so not bought via OTs site directly)?
> Because they can also be applied on Pre-Order sales, and a 100€ off the already 20% discounted JXL Brass would make it much more appealing...



I still don't own inspires, but that's definitely useful to know


----------



## Manuel Stumpf

fretti said:


> Anyone here knows whether or not (or if) you get those 2 OT Vouchers when you bought BOI/BOI 2 during the Native Instruments sale last year (so not bought via OTs site directly)?


As far as I know, you don't get these vouchers when buying the Inspires from Native Instruments sale.


----------



## Cinebient

Sorry for the dumb question but does Layers only play one finger chords?
For some reason it just play chords but i do not want that.


----------



## MauroPantin

Cinebient said:


> Sorry for the dumb question but does Layers only play one finger chords?
> For some reason it just play chords but i do not want that.



Yep. You play a note on the keyboard and you get a chord of the type that is nominated in the patch name. Each octave seems to have a different voicing (meaning the order or arrangement of the notes within the cord).


----------



## Cinebient

Thank you...then it´s not for me i guess.


----------



## Zeff

Does anyone here know how I'd go about controlling multiple Dynamics and Expression modulators for individual patches in the SINE Player without having to open up multiple instances of the SINE Player?

It seems that whenever I automate dynamics or the expression all loaded instruments get affected.


----------



## Manuel Stumpf

Zeff said:


> Does anyone here know how I'd go about controlling multiple Dynamics and Expression modulators for individual patches in the SINE Player without having to open up multiple instances of the SINE Player?


You can use different midi channels for the patches or even articulations if you want that.
Then you can control each one from its own midi channel but you still only have one instance of SINE.


----------



## OrchestralTools

Hey guys,

We just dropped a Layers walkthrough video!

You can watch it here:



We've been so busy at NAMM, but we're reading your comments and we'll get back to you all soon. Remember if you have any issues please reach out to our dedicated support team at [email protected].

Best,

OT Team


----------



## Zeff

Manuel Stumpf said:


> You can use different midi channels for the patches or even articulations if you want that.
> Then you can control each one from its own midi channel but you still only have one instance of SINE.



Hey, thanks for replying.

I'm aware of the midi channels and articulations and how I could play them individually without having to load multiple instances. Iit just seems that I can't control the Dynamics or any other 'global' modulation independently, so for ex. if I alter the dynamics for Horns A4, it also affects the dynamics for let's say a loaded Cimbassi A3 on midi channel 2 of that same instance of SINE.

Perhaps it's more of a DAW question and having to figure out how these CC modulators could be assigned to midi channels. It doesn't seem to be that intuitive in FL Studio.

Thanks again for your response !


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Zeff said:


> Hey, thanks for replying.
> 
> I'm aware of the midi channels and articulations and how I could play them individually without having to load multiple instances. Iit just seems that I can't control the Dynamics or any other 'global' modulation independently, so for ex. if I alter the dynamics for Horns A4, it also affects the dynamics for let's say a loaded Cimbassi A3 on midi channel 2 of that same instance of SINE.
> 
> Perhaps it's more of a DAW question and having to figure out how these CC modulators could be assigned to midi channels. It doesn't seem to be that intuitive in FL Studio.
> 
> Thanks again for your response !



well ideally these things will be assignable via midi/automation


----------



## Zeff

ProfoundSilence said:


> well ideally these things will be assignable via midi/automation



Ikr, I'll continue to try and figure out how this could be done in this DAW, hehe. Having difficulties with Googling this particular case.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Zeff said:


> Ikr, I'll continue to try and figure out how this could be done in this DAW, hehe. Having difficulties with Googling this particular case.


isn't BSO a popular thing for FL Studio users? or bidule or something?

trying to think of the name


----------



## Zeff

ProfoundSilence said:


> isn't BSO a popular thing for FL Studio users? or bidule or something?
> 
> trying to think of the name



Yeah, I do use that, but I can't seem to find 'individual' Dynamic or Expression 'knobs' (so to speak) in SINE itself. So I can only assign BRSO's Dynamic and Expression fader to the main (omni) dynamic and expression knob from SINE. Don't know if I'm making any sense.

Even if I assign a knob to CC#1 (Dynamics) with a different midi channel they'll always change the CC#1 value.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Zeff said:


> Yeah, I do use that, but I can't seem to find 'individual' Dynamic or Expression 'knobs' (so to speak) in SINE itself. So I can only assign BRSO's Dynamic and Expression fader to the main (omni) dynamic and expression knob from SINE. Don't know if I'm making any sense.
> 
> Even if I assign a knob to CC#1 (Dynamics) with a different midi channel they'll always change the CC#1 value.


ah, might end up needing separate instances if that's the case.


----------



## Zeff

ProfoundSilence said:


> ah, might end up needing separate instances if that's the case.



Yeah I'll do that for now. 

Hope I'm missing something here or that it's a feature yet to get implemented.


Thank you for the help and time @ProfoundSilence!


----------



## Zeff

ProfoundSilence said:


> ah, might end up needing separate instances if that's the case.



Wait, I did manage to get it to work. DOH. I used multiple MIDI Out's (Plugin from FL) instead of BRSO and assigned the knobs to CC#1 with the appropriate MIDI channel.

All is well now, hehe. Thanks!


----------



## Zeff

ProfoundSilence said:


> isn't BSO a popular thing for FL Studio users? or bidule or something?
> 
> trying to think of the name



Aah didn't see this, it's called BRSO Articulate by Synthetic Orchestra!


----------



## lpuser

Does anyone actually enjoy SINE?
Not wanting to sound negative and certainly don´t want to offend the dev team, but to me it seems overly complicated and looks a lot like an online store rather than a player for instruments.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

lpuser said:


> Does anyone actually enjoy SINE?
> Not wanting to sound negative and certainly don´t want to offend the dev team, but to me it seems overly complicated and looks a lot like an online store rather than a player for instruments.


??? yes ???

lol, not sure what looks complicated about it... and "looks like a store" is a silly criticism, because I haven't seen the "store" page except like twice. It doesn't open on that by default, and you only ever see the store if you go out of your way to click on it.



this is the "overcomplicated" player you're talking about.


----------



## G_Erland

lpuser said:


> Does anyone actually enjoy SINE?
> Not wanting to sound negative and certainly don´t want to offend the dev team, but to me it seems overly complicated and looks a lot like an online store rather than a player for instruments.


Personally, i find it a great improvement over loading into kontakt - articulation list, visualisation of the crossfading etc I find designs away alot of what feels like guesswork in kontakt. Also...it has a store...so thats a part of its functionality that has to look like something i guess is my opinion. On the whole though I think its a welcome streamlining and Ill be very happy when all the libs i own are ported to it. Id like a clear indicator of pp, mp, mf etc...but maybe im missing something or it will be made more like capsule in an update.

Edit: Its great!


----------



## Loïc D

lpuser said:


> Does anyone actually enjoy SINE?
> Not wanting to sound negative and certainly don´t want to offend the dev team, but to me it seems overly complicated and looks a lot like an online store rather than a player for instruments.


Vastly more intuitive & user friendly than Kontakt. 
Now I’m just waiting for OT to convert their legacy library to Sine and get rid of that great but resource hog Capsule engine.


----------



## nolotrippen

lpuser said:


> Does anyone actually enjoy SINE?
> Not wanting to sound negative and certainly don´t want to offend the dev team, but to me it seems overly complicated and looks a lot like an online store rather than a player for instruments.


I think it's pretty easy to use, as with anything new, there's a curve to learning it, but very slight and it sounds fantastic.


----------



## nas

lpuser said:


> Does anyone actually enjoy SINE?
> Not wanting to sound negative and certainly don´t want to offend the dev team, but to me it seems overly complicated and looks a lot like an online store rather than a player for instruments.




Yes... IF they can get the stability rock solid (and that should be their top priority now) and tweak the UI a little I think it has a lot of potential to be a very good player.


----------



## lpuser

Good to know that most (or all) of you like it  Thanks guys.

At the moment, I am happy that the OT libraries I own are still Kontakt based, because I would not want them in SINE given the stability issues and the general concept. Furthermore, I am simply not a fan of plugins with integrated online stores - to me, that´s a constant reminder to "buy more" and not something I want to see when I am working. Also, downloading the free LAYERS was a real challenge in Logic.


----------



## Eptesicus

lpuser said:


> Does anyone actually enjoy SINE?
> Not wanting to sound negative and certainly don´t want to offend the dev team, but to me it seems overly complicated and looks a lot like an online store rather than a player for instruments.



Complicated is not a word i would use to describe it!

I find it pretty intuitive (apart from the on/off button on the mic mixer - the mics just need more clear seperation)

The only real massive issue is stability. Which as it stands is awful.


----------



## composingkeys

When is version 1.02 coming out? I'm having problems with the Sine Player causing crashes with VE PRO 7.


----------



## Eptesicus

composingkeys said:


> When is version 1.02 coming out? I'm having problems with the Sine Player causing crashes with VE PRO 7.



I think most are having issues with SINE crashing 

I hope they get to the bottom of it, and soon. I HATE using software that is prone to crash. It just makes using it a ticking time bomb and a faff.


----------



## G_Erland

Id call it stable, I dont think Ive had any issues which might not just as well have happened with Kontakt.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

G_Erland said:


> Id call it stable, I dont think Ive had any issues which might not just as well have happened with Kontakt.


not everyone shares our experience, unfortunately.


----------



## G_Erland

ProfoundSilence said:


> not everyone shares our experience, unfortunately.


No off course, I didnt mean that, I just meant to say it is possible at least, dependent on the system. I just got lucky I guess.


----------



## Eptesicus

G_Erland said:


> No off course, I didnt mean that, I just meant to say it is possible at least, dependent on the system. I just got lucky I guess.



Are you on Windows or MAC our of interest?


----------



## Lionel Schmitt

Looks like it's different for every system, which makes me feel kinda sorry for the developer team! Must be hard to fix if you struggle replicating the issues.

For me it is extremely crashy too... I can barely use it for more than a few minutes, so no way to use it in a big project. Even lost some work on a mini track, which was annoying.
Glad I only have the free Layers.

I'm on Windows 10 by the way (just 32 GB RAM & CPU i7-8550, 4 cores and 8 processors). I'm also curious on which systems people with similar issues are. 

I'd recommend anyone looking at JXL Brass to first test how the Sine player performs for them with Layers.


----------



## Eptesicus

G_Erland said:


> Id call it stable, I dont think Ive had any issues which might not just as well have happened with Kontakt.



When you say this, it sounds like you have had some issues. What were they?


----------



## Kony

I think it would be useful to add system specs (operating system and DAW) when commenting on whether SINE is stable or not - this info would probably help the devs to troubleshoot any issues.


----------



## G_Erland

Win10. Studio One latest. I experience freezes if I close down and open the plugin while its playing samples, but something akin to this is not unlikely for me with Kontakt either. I have a fairly modest set up, with 64gb ram and jxl running from a T5, while other samples are on a Samsung EVO, i believe its called. There is a way to generate crash reports with SINE isnt it?


----------



## jcrosby

composingkeys said:


> When is version 1.02 coming out? I'm having problems with the Sine Player causing crashes with VE PRO 7.


Seems like the majority of us are. And the behavior is platform agnostic...



G_Erland said:


> Id call it stable, I dont think Ive had any issues which might not just as well have happened with Kontakt.



Definitely not my experience. I'm finding it to be incredibly unstable. I've also found that I can get away with it _using a few_ instruments but not using all sections.

Once I start to want to use the majority of the library its wound up breaking every single project I've put it in. This spans 3 separate DAWs; and also includes VEP, as a completely separate use case.

At some point it seems to 'break' the ability for every application I've tried it in to allocate memory.

I've also tried migrating these projects to another machine with very different specs, (nearly twice as much power in all regards; double ram; nearly double the CPU performance). The behavior is identical on both machines.




DarkestShadow said:


> For me it is extremely crashy too... I can barely use it for more than a few minutes, so no way to use it in a big project.
> 
> ---
> 
> I'm on Windows 10 by the way (just 32 GB RAM & CPU i7-8550, 4 cores and 8 processors).



I'm on mac but the behaviors pretty much the same.. So I stand by my statement that the behavior in general looks to be platform agnostic.


----------



## G_Erland

jcrosby said:


> Seems like the majority of us are. And the behavior is platform agnostic...
> 
> 
> 
> Definitely not my experience. I'm finding it to be incredibly unstable. I've also found that I can get away with it _using a few_ instruments but not using all sections.
> 
> Once I start to want to use the majority of the library its wound up breaking every single project I've put it in. This spans 3 separate DAWs; and also includes VEP, as a completely separate use case.
> 
> At some point it seems to 'break' the ability for every application I've tried it in to allocate memory.
> 
> I've also tried migrating these projects to another machine with very different specs, (nearly twice as much power in all regards; double ram; nearly double the CPU performance). The behavior is identical on both machines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm on mac but the behaviors pretty much the same.. So I stand by my statement that the behavior in general looks to be platform agnostic.


Cheezes! Scary. Im gonna save clean midi only versions of all recent projects.


----------



## Eptesicus

jcrosby said:


> Seems like the majority of us are. And the behavior is platform agnostic...
> 
> 
> 
> Definitely not my experience. I'm finding it to be incredibly unstable. I've also found that I can get away with it _using a few_ instruments but not using all sections.
> 
> Once I start to want to use the majority of the library its wound up breaking every single project I've put it in. This spans 3 separate DAWs; and also includes VEP, as a completely separate use case.
> 
> At some point it seems to 'break' the ability for every application I've tried it in to allocate memory.
> 
> I've also tried migrating these projects to another machine with very different specs, (nearly twice as much power in all regards; double ram; nearly double the CPU performance). The behavior is identical on both machines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm on mac but the behaviors pretty much the same.. So I stand by my statement that the behavior in general looks to be platform agnostic.



I agree about it being a memory allocation related issue. 99.9% of my crashes are from unloading an instrument (it just freezes indefinitely) or closing the player/sequencer. I have also had the odd clash on loading as well. Something is going funky when it is loading/unloading into ram.

I'm on Windows 10, using Cubase 10


----------



## lpuser

DarkestShadow said:


> Looks like it's different for every system, which makes me feel kinda sorry for the developer team! Must be hard to fix if you struggle replicating the issues.



Indeed ... which is why for the user it is hard to understand why we need yet another player engine. While Kontakt is certainly not perfect, it is quite solid. And more player engines involve (usually) more issues when it comes to OS update etc.

Nevertheless, I like the dark interface of SINE a lot.


----------



## Lionel Schmitt

lpuser said:


> Indeed ... which is why for the user it is hard to understand why we need yet another player engine. While Kontakt is certainly not perfect, it is quite solid. And more player engines involve (usually) more issues when it comes to OS update etc.
> 
> Nevertheless, I like the dark interface of SINE a lot.


Yea... well another problem here is that it was not only a new player but also a high priced release for pre-order with no way to tell how the engine is going to perform before it's too late.

Must really suck for people who dropped monies only to find out that they can barely use it. I for one would be burned since I can't keep my project running with the player for even a few minutes and that's no exaggeration.


----------



## lokotus

wood be cool to also mention here when these problems get fixed....


----------



## fretti

DarkestShadow said:


> Yea... well another problem here is that it was not only a new player but also a high priced release for pre-order with no way to tell how the engine is going to perform before it's too late.



That's exactly the reason I held back even though it was still 40% off on pre-sale...
Especially since my experience with HZ Strings as a new non Kontakt Library, which I can only now (after the recent update/upgrade) use to it's full potential.


Though funnily enough I have no problems with Sine so far (Mac, Logic Pro X), no crashes etc. neither with Layers nor with the single instruments I bought from JXL Brass...


----------



## OrchestralTools

Hey everyone,

The next SINE update is coming really soon, and we're trying to address the issues mentioned. 

In the meantime, please keep reaching out and reporting any issues to [email protected]. It really does help us isolate and pinpoint what's causing errors on specific systems.

Thanks to all of you who have contacted support so far, and to all of you who have been encouraging other users to get in touch directly—it's a massive help.

More soon,

OT


----------



## Dmitry

Can I(or other devs) make sample library for your Player?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Dmitry said:


> Can I(or other devs) make sample library for your Player?



THIS. I do love kontakt for some libraries, simply because I don't always like how they were designed(and I can haphazardly fix them under the hood)


----------



## amorphosynthesis

OrchestralTools said:


> Thanks for all feature requests too – you’ve given us so many ideas for the next SINE updates.


Congrats on sine and jxl brass....
I especially like the modular buying approach.one question though...
When will the kontakt series libs be available as modular instruments(I am looking at you Berlin strings)? Any e.t.a?


----------



## jbuhler

So is there a user manual for Sine? Or only the videos (that aren't even linked from the OT site)?


----------



## nas

jbuhler said:


> So is there a user manual for Sine? Or only the videos (that aren't even linked from the OT site)?




Have you checked this out on the OT website? 






Downloading and Installing SINEplayer - Orchestral Tools Helpdesk


You can download the current version of SINEplayer at https://www.orchestraltools.com/store/get-sine This site will always give you the newest version, which yo




orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com


----------



## bvaughn0402

I would love a manual or vidoes.

Anyone heard from OT lately?

Curious about the update mentioned a month ago, as well as porting of other libraries.


----------



## jbuhler

nas said:


> Have you checked this out on the OT website?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Downloading and Installing SINEplayer - Orchestral Tools Helpdesk
> 
> 
> You can download the current version of SINEplayer at https://www.orchestraltools.com/store/get-sine This site will always give you the newest version, which yo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com


Yes, three times, and was even on that page, but I guess I didn't realize the page went below what I was seeing or something. I did find where it's linked on the website now. Tried searching on the title of that page on the OT search bar and it came up null though...


----------



## Syneast

Does anyone else get the "Your System is currently offline" alert when trying to run SINE? My system is connected to the internet as evident by the fact that I am posting this, but still no dice with the player.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Syneast said:


> Does anyone else get the "Your System is currently offline" alert when trying to run SINE? My system is connected to the internet as evident by the fact that I am posting this, but still no dice with the player.


firewall? antivirus? 

something blocking its connection?


----------



## Syneast

ProfoundSilence said:


> firewall? antivirus?
> 
> something blocking its connection?


Turning firewall and antivirus off doesn't seem to have any effect.


----------



## coprhead6

Jumping on the SINE issue bandwagon here.

I’m running Cubase 10 on PC. 
I get severe, ear-busting distortion when I play recorded material in my project for the first time. After I play the material once, I can rewind and it works normally. 
I’ve waited long enough for the samples to load.

I’m just using one instrument (solo trombone).

Also, Cubase freezes permanently whenever I unload an articulation and I need to reboot my computer.

Total whiff :/


----------



## ProfoundSilence

coprhead6 said:


> Jumping on the SINE issue bandwagon here.
> 
> I’m running Cubase 10 on PC.
> I get severe, ear-busting distortion when I play recorded material in my project for the first time. After I play the material once, I can rewind and it works normally.
> I’ve waited long enough for the samples to load.
> 
> I’m just using one instrument (solo trombone).
> 
> Also, Cubase freezes permanently whenever I unload an articulation and I need to reboot my computer.
> 
> Total whiff :/




you can tell when the instrument is loaded based on whether or not the ram number is red or white. Also, are you unloading an articulation during playback? Have you tried turning the memory lock setting off to see if it still does it?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Syneast said:


> Turning firewall and antivirus off doesn't seem to have any effect.


I'm just wondering because sometimes when a program attempts to connect to the internet a little prompt will ask you if you want to allow it, and if you hit no itll remember that. 

if it was blocked by any sort of software automatically that could be an issue as well. 

not sure what operating system you're on, but if you only use windows firewall -









Windows 10: Allow/Block Apps in Firewall


How to block or unblock programs from network access in the Windows Firewall in Microsoft Winddows 10




www.google.com


----------



## coprhead6

ProfoundSilence said:


> Have you tried turning the memory lock setting off to see if it still does it?



Well the memory lock setting seems to have fixed absolutely everything.... including some other weird hanging and choppy video playback. 

You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

coprhead6 said:


> Well the memory lock setting seems to have fixed absolutely everything.... including some other weird hanging and choppy video playback.
> 
> You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.



I'm always at work so I have plenty of time to help. On the flip side, maybe the less tech support OT has to provide the quicker I see the other libraries ported to SINE lmao


----------



## OrchestralTools

Hey everyone,

*The SINE Player 1.0.2 update is here!*

Before we begin, we’d like to thank you all for your patience over the last few months. Developing SINE takes a massive amount of time and resources, and our team has been working around the clock on this update. We’re fully committed to the SINE Player and we’re working our hardest on making it perfect for everyone.
Thank you especially to all of you who reported issues to [email protected]. This really does help us to improve things.
This update fixes the performance issues some of you have experienced.


*Downloading the new update*

To download the new update, please head to http://www.getsine.com (www.getsine.com) and click ‘Download’.

Tobias has created some useful documents on our Helpdesk: https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/


*Junkie XL Brass 1.1 update coming soon*
Although the SINE Player update is available to download, the Junkie XL Brass update is still undergoing some tests. But we didn't want you to have to wait any longer for the SINE Player update. We can tell you that the Junkie XL Brass update is coming VERY soon, bringing the following improvements:


A new Full Brass instrument for sketching ideas is now available with Sustains, Stacatissimo, and Marcato Short articulations for owners of the full collection.
Horns a6: Re-edited and re-tuned Legato transitions.
Trombones a6: Tuning issues fixed.
Cimbassi a3: Various sample and editing issues fixed.
Refined tuning on Staccato and Staccatissimo patches for Trombones a3 + a6, and Trumpets a3 + a6.

*What’s in the SINE update?*

First up, we fixed some specific issues, including:


The hanging legato notes issue that occurred when switching between articulations with variable key ranges.
PolyMaps are now correctly recalled in existing projects.
Layers will load fine on case-sensitive drive formats.
Please note: This will be available for Junkie XL Brass in the upcoming update.
But we mainly focused on performance, so you should see some improvements, including:


Performance is not degraded when playing an instance while another instance is loading.
No performance issues when using higher MIDI channel numbers.
Projects will now load and close faster.
*Access the full changelog here: *
https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/article/366-sine-player-changelog

Thanks so much again for your patience and your continued support. Remember—if you do run into a bug, please report it by contacting us at: [email protected].

Best,

OT


----------



## Eptesicus

OrchestralTools said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> *The SINE Player 1.0.2 update is here!*
> 
> Before we begin, we’d like to thank you all for your patience over the last few months. Developing SINE takes a massive amount of time and resources, and our team has been working around the clock on this update. We’re fully committed to the SINE Player and we’re working our hardest on making it perfect for everyone.
> Thank you especially to all of you who reported issues to [email protected]. This really does help us to improve things.
> This update fixes the performance issues some of you have experienced.
> 
> 
> *Downloading the new update*
> 
> To download the new update, please head to http://www.getsine.com (www.getsine.com) and click ‘Download’.
> 
> Tobias has created some useful documents on our Helpdesk: https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/
> 
> 
> *Junkie XL Brass 1.1 update coming soon*
> Although the SINE Player update is available to download, the Junkie XL Brass update is still undergoing some tests. But we didn't want you to have to wait any longer for the SINE Player update. We can tell you that the Junkie XL Brass update is coming VERY soon, bringing the following improvements:
> 
> 
> A new Full Brass instrument for sketching ideas is now available with Sustains, Stacatissimo, and Marcato Short articulations for owners of the full collection.
> Horns a6: Re-edited and re-tuned Legato transitions.
> Trombones a6: Tuning issues fixed.
> Cimbassi a3: Various sample and editing issues fixed.
> Refined tuning on Staccato and Staccatissimo patches for Trombones a3 + a6, and Trumpets a3 + a6.
> 
> *What’s in the SINE update?*
> 
> First up, we fixed some specific issues, including:
> 
> 
> The hanging legato notes issue that occurred when switching between articulations with variable key ranges.
> PolyMaps are now correctly recalled in existing projects.
> Layers will load fine on case-sensitive drive formats.
> Please note: This will be available for Junkie XL Brass in the upcoming update.
> But we mainly focused on performance, so you should see some improvements, including:
> 
> 
> Performance is not degraded when playing an instance while another instance is loading.
> No performance issues when using higher MIDI channel numbers.
> Projects will now load and close faster.
> *Access the full changelog here: *
> https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/article/366-sine-player-changelog
> 
> Thanks so much again for your patience and your continued support. Remember—if you do run into a bug, please report it by contacting us at: [email protected].
> 
> Best,
> 
> OT




Thanks!

There doesn't seem to be anything really noted about stability/freezing and crashes. Is that still being worked on!?

Also, for the JXL update, i was surprised to see no note about the top register of the horns a4 legato which is very out of tune. Will that be addressed?


----------



## axb312

OrchestralTools said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> *The SINE Player 1.0.2 update is here!*
> 
> Before we begin, we’d like to thank you all for your patience over the last few months. Developing SINE takes a massive amount of time and resources, and our team has been working around the clock on this update. We’re fully committed to the SINE Player and we’re working our hardest on making it perfect for everyone.
> Thank you especially to all of you who reported issues to [email protected]. This really does help us to improve things.
> This update fixes the performance issues some of you have experienced.
> 
> 
> *Downloading the new update*
> 
> To download the new update, please head to http://www.getsine.com (www.getsine.com) and click ‘Download’.
> 
> Tobias has created some useful documents on our Helpdesk: https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/
> 
> 
> *Junkie XL Brass 1.1 update coming soon*
> Although the SINE Player update is available to download, the Junkie XL Brass update is still undergoing some tests. But we didn't want you to have to wait any longer for the SINE Player update. We can tell you that the Junkie XL Brass update is coming VERY soon, bringing the following improvements:
> 
> 
> A new Full Brass instrument for sketching ideas is now available with Sustains, Stacatissimo, and Marcato Short articulations for owners of the full collection.
> Horns a6: Re-edited and re-tuned Legato transitions.
> Trombones a6: Tuning issues fixed.
> Cimbassi a3: Various sample and editing issues fixed.
> Refined tuning on Staccato and Staccatissimo patches for Trombones a3 + a6, and Trumpets a3 + a6.
> 
> *What’s in the SINE update?*
> 
> First up, we fixed some specific issues, including:
> 
> 
> The hanging legato notes issue that occurred when switching between articulations with variable key ranges.
> PolyMaps are now correctly recalled in existing projects.
> Layers will load fine on case-sensitive drive formats.
> Please note: This will be available for Junkie XL Brass in the upcoming update.
> But we mainly focused on performance, so you should see some improvements, including:
> 
> 
> Performance is not degraded when playing an instance while another instance is loading.
> No performance issues when using higher MIDI channel numbers.
> Projects will now load and close faster.
> *Access the full changelog here: *
> https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/article/366-sine-player-changelog
> 
> Thanks so much again for your patience and your continued support. Remember—if you do run into a bug, please report it by contacting us at: [email protected].
> 
> Best,
> 
> OT



Maybe time for an OT sale?


----------



## David Kudell

Wow, great job guys - performance is so snappy, loading times are super fast now. Often instruments load instantly, definitely faster than Kontakt for me. I can't wait for more Sine instruments now!!


----------



## Mucusman

Is there a way to confirm which version of the SINE player is in use? I poked around but couldn't find a version number in the interface at all.


----------



## W Ackerman

Mucusman said:


> Is there a way to confirm which version of the SINE player is in use? I poked around but couldn't find a version number in the interface at all.



Options -> Advanced Settings


----------



## Oliver

Mucusman said:


> Is there a way to confirm which version of the SINE player is in use? I poked around but couldn't find a version number in the interface at all.



this is unfortunatley a common problem with most sample libraries... i hate it, when i have to take a weeks research for that :-(
Please developers make these version infos more visible!


----------



## W Ackerman

Oliver said:


> this is unfortunatley a common problem with most sample libraries... i hate it, when i have to take a weeks research for that :-(
> Please developers make these version infos more visible!



YES! And I would add that notifications about new releases be more discoverable. The only way I knew there was a new (and very much improved!) version of SINE was via watched threads in this forum.


----------



## holywilly

Unfortunately, SINE still crashes when loading my saved instance.


----------



## OrchestralTools

Hey everyone,

To all Junkie XL Brass collection + single instrument owners:

*The Junkie XL Brass update (1.1) is now available!*

We know some of you have been waiting for this, so thanks for being patient.


*How to update:*​
Make sure you’re using the latest version of SINE. It only launched two days ago, so if you haven’t updated SINE in the last two days, you’ll need to download the update here.​
Open SINE, go to ‘My Licenses’. All instruments that have updates waiting will show ‘Add Update’. Click the button to add the update to the queue.​
Tobias has created some useful documents on our Helpdesk: https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/

And for more details on updating instruments in SINE, there’s a step-by-step guide here: 
Downloading updates
​*What’s in the update?*
Junkie XL Brass update includes:


Full brass patches for sketching ideas are now available for the Sustains, Stacatissimo, and Marcato Short articulations
Horns a6: Re-edited and re-tuned Legato transitions 
Trombones a6: Tuning issues fixed 
Cimbassi a3: Various sample and editing issues fixed
Refined tuning on Staccato and Staccatissimo patches for Trombones a3 + a6, and Trumpets a3 + a6
Various minor improvements and fixes

And in case you missed it on Wednesday, this is the info on the SINE update:

*The SINE Player 1.0.2 *

We fixed some specific issues, including:

The hanging legato notes issue, when switching between articulations with variable key ranges
PolyMaps are now correctly recalled in existing projects
And Junkie XL Brass and Layers will load fine on case-sensitive drive formats
Performance is not degraded when playing an instance while another instance is loading
No performance issues when using higher MIDI channel numbers
Projects will now load and close faster
*Read the full changelog here:* https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/article/366-sine-player-changelog 


To answer this question (and thanks @*W Ackerman* - your answer was correct)


Mucusman said:


> Is there a way to confirm which version of the SINE player is in use? I poked around but couldn't find a version number in the interface at all.



In SINE, click _Options_ then _Advanced Settings_.
Making the version number more visible is on our to-do list but for this SINE update, our main focus was on performance.

Some of you have been asking why we’re releasing these updates so quietly… be assured there is a method to this madness. We decided to release the SINE and Junkie XL Brass updates separately to reduce risk and to make it easier to isolate any issues. We’ll announce both updates to the wider world on Monday (23rd May), but we figured you people on VI wouldn’t want to wait. Hope that clarifies things!

Thank you again to all of you who reported issues to: [email protected] This really does help us to improve things. We focused on performance in these updates, and we’re so happy to hear that SINE is now working great for some of you. 
But if you run into a bug, please reach out to our support. This helps us find the issue and then build the fix. It also means our support team can provide you with fixes and solutions to help make SINE quicker for you to use.

To reiterate: SINE is a priority for us and we’re committed to making it perfect for everyone, so thanks again for your continued support and feedback.

Best,

OT


----------



## Fry777

Thank you @OrchestralTools for reintroducing your helpdesk website, someone was asking about where to find the tech specs of your libs (number of layers etc), you can access all this again by clicking this link


----------



## Manaberry

Hi there.

The managed to get SINE player working in VEP (by disabling HiDPI option). However, the incoming midi from my keyboard (piloted through a midi track in Cubase) doesn't trigger any sound (the built-in piano roll shows which key is pressed). 

By clicking with the cursor on the built-in piano roll in SINE player does trigger sound. 
What am I missing?


----------



## axb312

Any idea if @OrchestralTools is planning to do a sale anytime soon?


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

Any idea when Orchestral Tools are going to fix the rest of their catalogue?


----------



## Peter Satera

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Any idea when Orchestral Tools are going to fix the rest of their catalogue?


You mean port over. It's not really a fix, as such.

It's likely covid-19 is slowing down things. It's also probably a lot of work to port every library. As well as work on new products.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

Peter Satera said:


> You mean port over. It's not really a fix, as such.
> 
> It's likely covid-19 is slowing down things. It's also probably a lot of work to port every library. As well as work on new products.


Nah i mean fix all the bugs


----------



## Peter Satera

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Nah i mean fix all the bugs



Ah I see. It was the word catalogue that threw me. I dunno, you still finding it unstable?


----------



## Fry777

Unchecking the "lock to memory" option in SINE's advanced settings made it super stable for me


----------



## Silence-is-Golden

@OrchestralTools

will you be announcing when the previous libraries will be accessible for the sine player?
As in: is there a time schedule for when what is going to be ported to sine?

the purchase what you need is what I wait for with several of your products


----------



## Sid Francis

Silence-is-Golden said:


> @OrchestralTools
> 
> will you be announcing when the previous libraries will be accessible for the sine player?
> As in: is there a time schedule for when what is going to be ported to sine?
> 
> the purchase what you need is what I wait for with several of your products


This!


----------



## creativeforge

Hi, I have two computers. Can I install Sine Player (For Layers) on both under one account?


----------



## OrchestralTools

creativeforge said:


> Hi, I have two computers. Can I install Sine Player (For Layers) on both under one account?



Hi creativeforge,

Yes you can download on up to 5 different machines under one account.


----------



## OrchestralTools

Hey everyone,

*The SINE Player 1.0.3 update is here*

We hope you’re all keeping safe and sane during these times. We’ve spent a good part of our lockdown working hard on this new SINE update. Thanks once again to all of you who emailed our support with your SINE feedback—this really helps us optimize SINE for everyone. 

*Downloading the new update*

To download the new update for free, head to www.getsine.com and click ‘Download’.

Tobias has created some useful documents on our Helpdesk: https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/

*What’s in the SINE update?*

This update is mainly about performance improvements and enhanced stabilization. For example, some of you reported issues with saving presets in Logic, or when clicking around during browser initialization—these are fixed now. We’ve also added the keyboard to the ‘Library’ view (another popular request), and mic positions can be activated by clicking on their names. Also, SINE now supports high-res screens, e.g. Surface Pro. 

Those are just some of the many features and fixes in this update. Access the full changelog here:
https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/article/366-sine-player-changelog

*Download SINE 1.0.3 free at getsine.com*

Thanks so much for your continued support. Remember—if you do run into a bug, please report it at: *[email protected]**.*

Best wishes,

OT


----------



## Coqui

Hi.
Just a side note. The appearance of the unused keys in the virtual keyboard is not very pleasant, to tell the truth. Wouldn't it be possible to draw them in a more uniform color?
Thank you


----------



## Peter Satera

I'm not seeing the same white speckles, bug it?


----------



## Virtuoso

Coqui said:


> The appearance of the unused keys in the virtual keyboard is not very pleasant


It's because the gaps between the keys are transparent so it's showing whatever's underneath the player. Drag it around and you'll see what I mean.


----------



## YaniDee

Mucusman said:


> Is there a way to confirm which version of the SINE player is in use? I poked around but couldn't find a version number in the interface at all.


In version 1.03 if you click the logo (or Orchestral Tools text) on the top left of the interface, you get a credits pop up with the version showing. If you don't see that, I guess you don't have v1.03..


----------



## kmm08

How do you change key switches in this version? They're gone. Am I missing something here? 
Also, a bug I sent in a while ago regarding setting the KS low and high starting keys, if you set say low instruments to C5, then try loading a trombone patch, it loads on C#4. 
I think it also would have been better off adding the keyboard to Mixer view instead of Library view.


----------



## kmm08

After further messing around, I noticed that if you load single articulations, each on their own midi channel, the key switches do not show up on the keyboard, even though they are still assigned in the Articulation list. Not sure if this was like this form the initial version, but I guess it doesn't really matter since you wouldn't use key switches with only one articulation loaded per channel anyway.


----------



## Eptesicus

Any news on a further update to jxl brass itself?

Horns a6 legato is still broken in many places (split notes on transitions in high dynamics, and no legato in the top register)?


----------



## OrchestralTools

Eptesicus said:


> Any news on a further update to jxl brass itself?
> 
> Horns a6 legato is still broken in many places (split notes on transitions in high dynamics, and no legato in the top register)?



Hi Eptesicus,

We're aware of it and we're working on it. We'll let you know as soon as we can on when to expect an update.
If you find anything with SINE or Junkie XL Brass in the meantime please reach out to our support ([email protected]), this really does help us.

Best,

OT


----------



## OrchestralTools

kmm08 said:


> After further messing around, I noticed that if you load single articulations, each on their own midi channel, the key switches do not show up on the keyboard, even though they are still assigned in the Articulation list. Not sure if this was like this form the initial version, but I guess it doesn't really matter since you wouldn't use key switches with only one articulation loaded per channel anyway.



Hi kmm08,

We replied to this comment in another thread, but will post our answer for you here also:

Keyswitches shouldn't have disappeared, if you're not seeing them with this new update then please reach out to our dedicated support team at [email protected]. Also please let them know any feature requests you have too, this helps us personalize SINE for different types of users.

As for allocating a single articulation per MIDI channel, the keyswitches don't show up then as there's no more use for them.
We have a lot of documents about SINE and the different views on our Helpdesk. In particular, we have the below article about the articulation list and keyswitches: https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/article/301-articulation-list

Hope this helps and let us know if you have any more questions.

Best,

OT


----------



## jonathanwright

Great update, working smoothly in Logic now. Thanks.


----------



## Eptesicus

OrchestralTools said:


> Hi Eptesicus,
> 
> We're aware of it and we're working on it. We'll let you know as soon as we can on when to expect an update.
> If you find anything with SINE or Junkie XL Brass in the meantime please reach out to our support ([email protected]), this really does help us.
> 
> Best,
> 
> OT



Cool, thank you.


----------



## kinginknyc

I'm downloading my first purchase (Tableau solo strings) in Sine, am I the only one experiencing criminally slow download times. I have a 200mbps service, haven't seen anything this slow in a decade.


----------



## David Kudell

kinginknyc said:


> I'm downloading my first purchase (Tableau solo strings) in Sine, am I the only one experiencing criminally slow download times. I have a 200mbps service, haven't seen anything this slow in a decade.


The downloads on Sine are very fast for me in the western USA.


----------



## jbuhler

kinginknyc said:


> I'm downloading my first purchase (Tableau solo strings) in Sine, am I the only one experiencing criminally slow download times. I have a 200mbps service, haven't seen anything this slow in a decade.


Ever since the COVID lockdown my download speeds have been all over the place.


----------



## Lionel Schmitt

Server might have trouble. For me the download of the Sine update is insanely slow right now. Down to 15 KB per second. lol.. 1 hour for 60 MB.


----------



## kinginknyc

Oh, anything else I download is at the speed I expect. the Sine plugin is at a snail pace. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't pause the download right? I can't see the data rate either?


----------



## jbuhler

Testing with a Sine download here and it is indeed much slower than yesterday.


----------



## Lionel Schmitt

Strangely at the end the Sine update download suddenly got rather quick and the download was done within a few seconds after being super slow at 20 KB per sec or so.. maybe the issues are getting solved right now.


----------



## jbuhler

DarkestShadow said:


> Strangely at the end the Sine update download suddenly got rather quick and the download was done within a few seconds after being super slow at 20 KB per sec or so.. maybe the issues are getting solved right now.


Second download today went much faster than the first.


----------



## kinginknyc

jbuhler said:


> Second download today went much faster than the first.



A pause button would be a welcomed addition.... At least one could reconnect, and perhaps avoid having a 10gig download take 2 hours. THIS IS NOT AN IMPROVEMENT ORCHESTRAL TOOLS!!!


----------



## novaburst

DarkestShadow said:


> Server might have trouble. For me the download of the Sine update is insanely slow right now. Down to 15 KB per second. lol.. 1 hour for 60 MB.



Hay @DarkestShadow are you even on this planet that is very slow


----------



## jcrosby

David Kudell said:


> The downloads on Sine are very fast for me in the western USA.


Same here. Inspire took something like 2-3 minutes. Northeastern US. has to be ISP related... Could even be hosting related... If they use Amazon I'd imagine that would explain speedier downloads in the US.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

jcrosby said:


> Same here. Inspire took something like 2-3 minutes. Northeastern US. has to be ISP related... Could even be hosting related... If they use Amazon I'd imagine that would explain speedier downloads in the US.


if it was Amazon it would explain the inconsistency

I'm in the US and some Amazon hosting servers are like 33kb for me...


----------



## kinginknyc

I took a break and downloaded the Vla and VC last night, rate was more in line with what it should be. As I posted earlier, would be great to see a DL rate and the ability to pause a download in the plugin.


----------



## jaketanner

When will the SINE player be AAX compatible? @Ben


----------



## Ben

jaketanner said:


> When will the SINE player be AAX compatible? @Ben


Sorry, I don't know @jaketanner . But maybe the colleagues at @OrchestralTools can answer 

(Edit: just looked it up and I can tell you that VEP7 is AAX compatible, so you could use SINE inside VEP7  )


----------



## jaketanner

Ben said:


> Sorry, I don't know @jaketanner . But maybe the colleagues @OrchestralTools can answer


SOrry...no idea why I though it was VSL.. LOL my bad.


----------



## jaketanner

@OrchestralTools ...any word on SINE player for AAX?


----------



## turnerofwheels

Still crashing on me all the time when running in VEP. Sometimes even just opening the gui of the plugin during playback leads to a crash...


----------



## OrchestralTools

jaketanner said:


> @OrchestralTools ...any word on SINE player for AAX?



Hey Jake,

We're working on this as we speak and we'll let you know soon about when to expect SINE and AAX compatibility.

Best,

OT


----------



## holywilly

AAX & super stable, fingers crossed!


----------



## OrchestralTools

SHANE TURNER said:


> Still crashing on me all the time when running in VEP. Sometimes even just opening the gui of the plugin during playback leads to a crash...



Hey Shane,

Please reach out to our support team via email ([email protected]). If the issue is specific to your system, our support team will need to reproduce it in order to fix it, so additional screenshots or videos are much appreciated.

If the issue isn't specific to you, there may already be a fix and our support team can tell you how to resolve it. 

Best,

OT


----------



## Geoff Grace

Yes. Looking forward to AAX. 

Best, 

Geoff


----------



## justthere

Is there a target date for Berlin Strings in SINE?


----------



## Chen

Syneast said:


> Does anyone else get the "Your System is currently offline" alert when trying to run SINE? My system is connected to the internet as evident by the fact that I am posting this, but still no dice with the player.





Syneast said:


> Does anyone else get the "Your System is currently offline" alert when trying to run SINE? My system is connected to the internet as evident by the fact that I am posting this, but still no dice with the player.



v1.0.3.509


Syneast said:


> Does anyone else get the "Your System is currently offline" alert when trying to run SINE? My system is connected to the internet as evident by the fact that I am posting this, but still no dice with the player.



Hello, have you solved the offline problem of your system?

I installed the latest sine V1.0.3.509 also to show the system offline


----------



## Henu

[Edited wrong tag out, sorry about that!]

I actually had the same problem with Sine AND Ilok. I'm pretty savvy with computers, but I neved realized what the problem was (and neither did OT/Ilok support) until by accident. If you have Ilok installed, try to update it and let me know what it says!


----------



## Chen

Henu said:


> @Syneast
> 
> I actually had the same problem with Sine AND Ilok. I'm pretty savvy with computers, but I neved realized what the problem was (and neither did OT/Ilok support) until by accident. If you have Ilok installed, try to update it and let me know what it says!




No, my ILOK can't be upgraded


----------



## Henu

So, you have the same problem I did. The fun thing is that I actually can't tell you WHAT happened precisely (I realized too late that I didn't check properly the "fix" which was performed), but I can tell you how I solved it. 

Some time ago, I needed to use Zoom for the first time and despite of my struggle, I finally had to install that to my computer instead of using it via browser. At installation, Zoom prompted me and explained that a certain TCP (if I recall correctly) setting is disabled on my computer and it is needed for outgoing traffic. I enabled that so Zoom would work (which it did) and then started to think that this MUST be what was preventing Sine and Ilok to contact outside servers- launched both and LO AND BEHOLD everything worked and has been working since.

TL;DR

Install Zoom desktop to your computer and hope you'll get that prompt out of it. Enable the setting and everything should work nicely afterwards. Fingers crossed! 

PS: If you do it and it works, please let me know what the setting was. :D


----------



## OT_Tobias

Henu said:


> So, you have the same problem I did. The fun thing is that I actually can't tell you WHAT happened precisely (I realized too late that I didn't check properly the "fix" which was performed), but I can tell you how I solved it.
> 
> Some time ago, I needed to use Zoom for the first time and despite of my struggle, I finally had to install that to my computer instead of using it via browser. At installation, Zoom prompted me and explained that a certain TCP (if I recall correctly) setting is disabled on my computer and it is needed for outgoing traffic. I enabled that so Zoom would work (which it did) and then started to think that this MUST be what was preventing Sine and Ilok to contact outside servers- launched both and LO AND BEHOLD everything worked and has been working since.
> 
> TL;DR
> 
> Install Zoom desktop to your computer and hope you'll get that prompt out of it. Enable the setting and everything should work nicely afterwards. Fingers crossed!
> 
> PS: If you do it and it works, please let me know what the setting was. :D



It might have been Internet Explorer - Internet Options - Advanced and then enable "Use TLS 1.2". For whatever reason on some systems that is off. But it should not influence SINE Player, as it does not use Internet Explorer at all.


----------



## Henu

OT_Tobias said:


> It might have been Internet Explorer - Internet Options - Advanced and then enable "Use TLS 1.2".



Tested, everything still works. So it isn't that- at least from the IE settings.


----------



## zigzag

@OrchestralTools @OT_Tobias 
I hope you don't mind I make a bug report here. 

I've just updated Windows 10 to v2004. Then I opened a project in Cubase and track with a SINE player instrument wouldn't play. It was because SINE got deactivated. So I've enter my activation details to activate it. After successful activation however, SINE instance was empty and didn't properly load the instrument and it's settings.


----------



## Sunny Schramm

zigzag said:


> @OrchestralTools @OT_Tobias
> I hope you don't mind I make a bug report here.
> 
> I've just updated Windows 10 to v2004. Then I opened a project in Cubase and track with a SINE player instrument wouldn't play. It was because SINE got deactivated. So I've enter my activation details to activate it. After successful activation however, SINE instance was empty and didn't properly load the instrument and it's settings.



thats normal for a lot of instruments and daw´s or activation-software. I had to update my e-licencer software when bigger windows-patches arrived. but it should load everything correctly after you re-start your computer and project after reactivation 🤔


----------



## zigzag

Sunny Schramm said:


> thats normal for a lot of instruments and daw´s or activation-software. I had to update my e-licencer software when bigger windows-patches arrived. but it should load everything correctly after you re-start your computer and project after reactivation 🤔


Yeah, reactivation it's not the issue. It's that the instrument was not loaded properly after activation. I suspect that SINE refuses to load the instrument if not activated, but after the activation the data for restoring the instrument is already gone. 

So, you have to close and reload the project. Or like in my case, if you've already saved over the original project, you have to load and configure instruments manually. Fortunately, it was project I just started with only one SINE instrument active.


----------



## OrchestralTools

zigzag said:


> Yeah, reactivation it's not the issue. It's that the instrument was not loaded properly after activation. I suspect that SINE refuses to load the instrument if not activated, but after the activation the data for restoring the instrument is already gone.
> 
> So, you have to close and reload the project. Or like in my case, if you've already saved over the original project, you have to load and configure instruments manually. Fortunately, it was project I just started with only one SINE instrument active.


Hey zigzag,

SINE will remember settings or instrument data after reactivation. This could've happened because SINE was still running in another process, but we'd need more details from you to understand what happened exactly.

In any case, the best thing to do is to reach out to our support team ([email protected]) with your machine specs and details of what happened—it helps us to understand/investigate the circumstances and then we can advise/help you.

Please also check you have the latest version of SINE installed: http://www.getsine.com (www.getsine.com)

Best,

OT


----------



## zigzag

OrchestralTools said:


> Hey zigzag,
> 
> SINE will remember settings or instrument data after reactivation. This could've happened because SINE was still running in another process, but we'd need more details from you to understand what happened exactly.
> 
> In any case, the best thing to do is to reach out to our support team ([email protected]) with your machine specs and details of what happened—it helps us to understand/investigate the circumstances and then we can advise/help you.
> 
> Best,
> 
> OT


Hey OT,
I didn't reach out to our support team as this was one-time event and I can't reproduce it anymore (or at least not until next mayor Windows update).

What happened was that after updating to Windows 10 v2004 (64bit), I opened Cubase project that had one active SINE instrument on an instrument track (other SINE tracks were disabled). Since there was no sound from that track I opened it's VSTi. SINE plugin was asking me for activation details. I entered activation info, but after activation this SINE instance did not continue loading the instrument that has had been there before.

SINE is version 1.0.3.509 and Cubase is v10.0.60. I did not run SINE standalone after updating Windows. After this happened I enabled another instrument track with SINE and it loaded the instrument correctly. I had no more issues after this.

If it's not a activation issue, maybe SINE plugin encountered some other error at the first run after this Windows update that caused instrument restore to fail. If it happens again, I'll contact support directly, but don't have any more details about this at this time.


----------



## Pablocrespo

I added sine to a session (2 choir tracks and 1 JXL trombones track) and after a while it froze cubase and then always froze right after opening the project, only solution was to take sine dll from the vst folder.

Someone mentioned a memory lock settings, where can I find it?


----------



## heisenberg

Thank you for that info on SINE and Cubase. I will brute force the removal of it now, as you did. A good cautionary tale to know about.


----------



## OrchestralTools

Hey everyone,

*The SINE Player 1.0.4 update is here!*

We’re pleased to announce that a new SINE update is available. This one is firmly focused on performance and stability. But we also added a few small but practical features that should help a lot while you’re working with SINE—you can read the full changelog here: https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/article/366-sine-player-changelog

And for some background on the update, watch this new video: Hendrik guides you through the update, and sheds some light on the work involved in creating an update like this: 


*Downloading the new update*

To download the new update, please head to http://www.getsine.com (www.getsine.com)and click ‘Download’.

Tobias has created some useful documents on our Helpdesk: https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/


*What’s in the SINE update?*

This update brings performance and UI improvements. But we’ve also added some useful new features, including:


Connecting articulations with legato transitions: When switching from one articulation to another one, you can fluidly connect them with a legato transition
Improved new loading procedure, including a loading bar: While instruments/articulations are loading, SINE will now show the progress. The performance handling during the loading is also greatly improved (We recommend to play instruments only when they are fully loaded to avoid dropouts)
Re-scaling for lower res screens

We’d like to thank you all for your patience over the last few months, with an extra-special thank-you to everyone who has contacted our support team. The SINE Player is Orchestral Tools’ most ambitious project. We’ve expanded the OT development team, and we’re fully committed to the SINE Player—we’re working our hardest to take the next steps in sampling technology.

And remember—if you do run into a bug, please report it at: [email protected]. This helps us to continuously improve SINE.

Best,

OT


----------



## PuerAzaelis

I'm running SINE on Reaper. So far so good, no major issues. A very few freezes, but no crashes.


----------



## jononotbono

Can’t wait to try this out later today. Hopefully it helps with stability. 

Any idea when we be able to assign Midi CCs on the mic faders? I know stability is the most important aspect but being able to assign CCs for the faders would be such a time saver than having to look on the VEPro machine each time.


----------



## Benjamin Duk

The crashes for me have been fixed in 1.0.4! Nice.


----------



## GingerMaestro

Does Sine player run on an ipad ? Or is that some kind of macbook touch screen Hendrik is using ?


----------



## Rory

GingerMaestro said:


> Does Sine player run on an ipad ? Or is that some kind of macbook touch screen Hendrik is using ?



I think that the device at 1:30 is a Microsoft Surface Pro running Windows 10. It isn't an iPad.


----------



## kev

Rory said:


> I think that the device at 1:30 is a Microsoft Surface Pro running Windows 10. It isn't an iPad.



True, tho I would imagine that it might work the same way using an ipad with sidecar?


----------



## LamaRose

Thank you @OrchestralTools for the update... this resolved 99% of the issues of not being able to resize the player in Logic on my 13" MBP... good to go now!


----------



## Jack Weaver

Nope, it breaks Logic consistently for me. 

It was just fine before upgrading...

I'll get back to it tomorrow and see if I can figure it out. Wish I hadn't tried to fix something that wasn't broken. 

.


----------



## Chen

OrchestralTools said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> *The SINE Player 1.0.4 update is here!*
> 
> We’re pleased to announce that a new SINE update is available. This one is firmly focused on performance and stability. But we also added a few small but practical features that should help a lot while you’re working with SINE—you can read the full changelog here: https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/article/366-sine-player-changelog
> 
> And for some background on the update, watch this new video: Hendrik guides you through the update, and sheds some light on the work involved in creating an update like this:
> 
> 
> *Downloading the new update*
> 
> To download the new update, please head to http://www.getsine.com (www.getsine.com)and click ‘Download’.
> 
> Tobias has created some useful documents on our Helpdesk: https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/
> 
> 
> *What’s in the SINE update?*
> 
> This update brings performance and UI improvements. But we’ve also added some useful new features, including:
> 
> 
> Connecting articulations with legato transitions: When switching from one articulation to another one, you can fluidly connect them with a legato transition
> Improved new loading procedure, including a loading bar: While instruments/articulations are loading, SINE will now show the progress. The performance handling during the loading is also greatly improved (We recommend to play instruments only when they are fully loaded to avoid dropouts)
> Re-scaling for lower res screens
> 
> We’d like to thank you all for your patience over the last few months, with an extra-special thank-you to everyone who has contacted our support team. The SINE Player is Orchestral Tools’ most ambitious project. We’ve expanded the OT development team, and we’re fully committed to the SINE Player—we’re working our hardest to take the next steps in sampling technology.
> 
> And remember—if you do run into a bug, please report it at: [email protected]. This helps us to continuously improve SINE.
> 
> Best,
> 
> OT



Hi,OrchestraTools 

But I have a question
Why is it in the Controller Map
It seems that no CC controller can control the switch of Articulation between the legato mode and non-legato mode


----------



## Jack Weaver

Jack Weaver said:


> Nope, it breaks Logic consistently for me.
> 
> It was just fine before upgrading...
> 
> I'll get back to it tomorrow and see if I can figure it out. Wish I hadn't tried to fix something that wasn't broken.


As it turns out, my Logic Song was corrupted - apparently causing SINE locking up upon selecting an instrument.
I'm still cautious of it... I deleted an instance of SINE in a new Logic Song and it crashed Logic.

So, they are not guilty but still a tad suspect.


Logic 10.4.8, OSX 10.15.4, 2019 Mac Pro, 192GB RAM

.


----------



## MGdepp

Strange ... for me Sine works as VST, but the standalone won't start (macOS Catalina, latest version). I have to force-quit it.

Anybody else experienced that?


----------



## C-Wave

It starts for me on Windows 10 but can’t recognize midi inout from my NI controller.. no problem in komplete kontrol 2.30 or Cubae 10.5.20 though; i.e. as a plugin, midi input works fine. Can’t nail it down. Edit: for some reason turns out works with other channels; 2, omni, etc.. , but not with channel 1. If I switch to channel 1 it hangs the midi channel and quickly crashes.


----------



## jbuhler

MGdepp said:


> Strange ... for me Sine works as VST, but the standalone won't start (macOS Catalina, latest version). I have to force-quit it.
> 
> Anybody else experienced that?


I’m on Mojave and I had issues starting up the standalone after the recent update. It just hung after opening with the bouncing icon in the dock and required a force quit. I had to restart the computer and once I did that everything has been normal.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

Seems much more stable on Windows 10 now. 

I can actually start downloading my packs!


----------



## Kevperry777

jbuhler said:


> I’m on Mojave and I had issues starting up the standalone after the recent update. It just hung after opening with the bouncing icon in the dock and required a force quit. I had to restart the computer and once I did that everything has been normal.



I experienced a standalone bouncing crash too. (Catalina). I reinstalled and all is well again.


----------



## galactic orange

Kevperry777 said:


> I experienced a standalone bouncing crash too. (Catalina). I reinstalled and all is well again.


I had the same on a 2020 MacBook Air with the latest Catalina. Restarted the Mac and everything was fine. Two other Macs running Mojave had no problem of any kind.


----------



## Kevperry777

I really am rooting for OT. I love their approach as a company...the sounds they get.....but yikes...I'm sad to say that thus far that this SINE version in Logic is less stable than before. Doesn't take much by way of loading up articulations to crash it. Sent an email to support.


----------



## Jack Weaver

OK, now SINE is locking up on loading an instrument to the second instance of SINE within Logic. The first instance is OK, but after opening up a second instance of SINE and then trying to add an instrument within it - then it locks up. Sometimes it freezes SINE and sometimes it crashes Logic. 

.


----------



## Kevperry777

Jack Weaver said:


> OK, now SINE is locking up on loading an instrument to the second instance of SINE within Logic. The first instance is OK, but after opening up a second instance of SINE and then trying to add an instrument within it - then it locks up. Sometimes it freezes SINE and sometimes it crashes Logic.
> 
> .




Same. Adding or removing articulations is completely unstable right now in Logic. I've forwarded logs to OT support. Hopefully can fix quickly.


----------



## Jack Weaver

SINE seems OK in VEPro7 so far. In Logic, after one instance of SINE it's a big problem. 

.


----------



## C-Wave

For some reason Sine Standalone works with other channels; 2, omni, etc.. , but not with channel 1. If I switch to channel 1 it hangs the midi channel and quickly crashes.
As reported earlier, that is not the case when using the plugin version of SINE.
Windows 10.


----------



## NYC Composer

Is anybody using Sine in VEP 6? If it's stable there, I wouldn't mind taking a chance on it.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

NYC Composer said:


> Is anybody using Sine in VEP 6? If it's stable there, I wouldn't mind taking a chance on it.


did you have any luck with the free layers?


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

Finally had a chance to play with Sine properly and I have to say, I am really excited to set up my template with them. So much more flexible and negates the need for a million kontakt instances

My one complaint is that my eyes cannot get to grips with the channel strips. It's the Pan pot and white line on the metre, they look like dividers and it all looks like they are outlining different strips


----------



## ProfoundSilence

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Finally had a chance to play with Sine properly and I have to say, I am really excited to set up my template with them. So much more flexible and negates the need for a million kontakt instances
> 
> My one complaint is that my eyes cannot get to grips with the channel strips. It's the Pan pot and white line on the metre, they look like dividers and it all looks like they are outlining different strips


I just want to be able to automate everything with midi again QQ

I've resorted to some really shady work-arounds.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

ProfoundSilence said:


> I just want to be able to automate everything with midi again QQ
> 
> I've resorted to some really shady work-arounds.


Which parts can you not automate? (I am new to Sine obviously). 

Actually now that I think of it, I was trying to figure out how to toggle legato on/off via cc and couldnt


----------



## ProfoundSilence

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Which parts can you not automate? (I am new to Sine obviously).
> 
> Actually now that I think of it, I was trying to figure out how to toggle legato on/off via cc and couldnt



the list of things you can automate is in the settings. At the moment it's a pretty short list. 


It's my understanding that it'll eventually be more or less fully automatable. I've Resorted to having multiple sine instances on the same track,each remapping volume(cc7) to the typical close/ab/tree/surr mics. 

Also means legato needs to be a different keyswitch. That said - it DOES NOT duplicate it into ram, which is nice. It means you can have a ton of the same articulation with slightly different settings without eating any more ram.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

ProfoundSilence said:


> Also means legato needs to be a different keyswitch. That said - it DOES NOT duplicate it into ram, which is nice. It means you can have a ton of the same articulation with slightly different settings without eating any more ram.


that's good news. You could have all sorts of patch blends etc with no increase in ram.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> that's good news. You could have all sorts of patch blends etc with no increase in ram.


Ill be showing some fancier videos as soon as I get to brass - I've been doing my usual shady stuff and making "divisi" by using a blend of solo/a3 or a4/a6 and controlling the blend of each on duplicate articulations.

i.e. I'll play a triad and change the blend until it sounds closer to 2+2+2. The more split the less a3/a6 and the more solo typically. 

you could do this I suppose in a less-intricate way by using a duplicated articulation(i.e. staccato, then staccato -~3db for divisi)

One other work around for different mic blends per articulation is having them on the same midi channel but seperate instruments. This is my prefered workflow because I can also control the volume range seperately(i.e. less volume range on the tree and more on the close)


----------



## ProfoundSilence

I just got stuck on more overtime, so I figured I'd pick up some bits from inspire for my laptop.

just strings/solo flute/oboe/clarinet/bassoon/percussion menu from inspire

between that and MA1+2 and JXLB I think I might have avoided needing to even install kontakt for sketching when im bored at work


----------



## ProfoundSilence

@SimonCharlesHanna

twitch.tv/ProfundusConftutatis

here was me showing like a short example - for a more realistic sounding a6 to a3. I dont feel like I dialed it in well enough for triads(a2) but it was a short/quick example for someone on the stream.

it also makes crossfades sound smoother(and since I choose different mics for each I feel like it's a better mix) when you're using sustains/legato.


----------



## ckeddf

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> My one complaint is that my eyes cannot get to grips with the channel strips. It's the Pan pot and white line on the metre, they look like dividers and it all looks like they are outlining different strips



That mirrors my experience. I have to focus to not accidentally get into an adjacent channel.


----------



## JLKooistra

OrchestralTools said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> *The SINE Player 1.0.4 update is here!*


Great, thanks!
On my DAW (PC/i7-7700/Win10/32Gb/Reaper.6): way more stable, no Reaper crashes during template building or playback. Version <= 1.03.xxx crashed vePro7 (PC/R2700x/Win10/64Gb), esp. when dragging; not happened until now.


----------



## BassClef

New to SINE as of yesterday with Ark1/2 bundle.... Small problem with SINE... I use a StudioLogic SL88 Grand keyboard with a Roland DP-10 variable damper pedal. With that pedal plugged in, SINE goes nuts with hanging notes all over the place, even when not pressing the pedal. So I have switched back to a simple on/off pedal for now with no problems. Is there a resolution to this problem?


----------



## Geoff Grace

BassClef said:


> New to SINE as of yesterday with Ark1/2 bundle.... Small problem with SINE... I use a StudioLogic SL88 Grand keyboard with a Roland DP-10 variable damper pedal. With that pedal plugged in, SINE goes nuts with hanging notes all over the place, even when not pressing the pedal. So I have switched back to a simple on/off pedal for now with no problems. Is there a resolution to this problem?


Could this be relevant?

http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2648784/Re_Riddle_me_this_polarity_rev
Best,

Geoff


----------



## ProfoundSilence

BassClef said:


> New to SINE as of yesterday with Ark1/2 bundle.... Small problem with SINE... I use a StudioLogic SL88 Grand keyboard with a Roland DP-10 variable damper pedal. With that pedal plugged in, SINE goes nuts with hanging notes all over the place, even when not pressing the pedal. So I have switched back to a simple on/off pedal for now with no problems. Is there a resolution to this problem?


makes me wonder

@OrchestralTools I have a continuous sustain pedal - and sine hates it. Does anyone there have a non switch style sustain pedal to test with? I realize it's not common, but would be nice to be able to use the sustain pedal while having a sine track armed without having to midi panic


----------



## Daniel Go

I'm having the same problem with SINE (1.0.4): It crashes Logic whenever loading or unloading instruments. Sometimes it freezes (force quit necessary) and sometimes it just crashes the whole Logic project.

I hope the OT team will fix this soon with a new update, because right now I'm not able to use any of their instruments on my projects.


----------



## Bear Market

I'm also on Logic and SINE is pretty much unusable for me after the 1.0.4 update. SINE is now banished from my template and as much as I would like to be able to use JXL brass, I cannot.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Is there a way to revert to 1.03?


----------



## Aldo_arf

Does anyone that has MA1 in SINE (1.04) knows if you’re able to activate legato on High Strings? I’m only able to activate it on Sustain Octaves/Legato and Sustain Octaves but in any other long articulation such as Unison Sus or Marcatos it fails to activate. I’m able change to legato on Low Strings so that’s why I’m confused.

Thanks.


----------



## Manuel Stumpf

Aldo_arf said:


> Does anyone that has MA1 in SINE (1.04) knows if you’re able to activate legato on High Strings? I’m only able to activate it on Sustain Octaves/Legato and Sustain Octaves but in any other long articulation such as Unison Sus or Marcatos it fails to activate.


I see the same behaviour. This could be a bug. Did you tell Orchestral Tools about it?


----------



## Aldo_arf

Manuel Stumpf said:


> I see the same behaviour. This could be a bug. Did you tell Orchestral Tools about it?


 Yes, I sent them an email couple hours ago. Thanks for replying Manuel.


----------



## fourteentoone

SINE Player 1.04 also unusable inside my DAW. Crashes Cakewalk without exception as soon as I try to load an instrument. Works in Standalone.

Honestly, it doesn't seem ready for primetime, even prior versions haven't felt good. Maybe it works in Vienna Ensemble but that's not part of my workflow. Would like to use JXL Brass as it's an excellent library, but it's as useful as a brick currently.


----------



## artomatic

Updated to 1.04. Just as bad as 1.03. Download problems, crash here and there and the perpetual stuck-note syndrome.
I wish I can reliably use JXLB. It's a shame 'cause it sounds great. 
It's also very expensive to just let it sit on the hard drive!
I wonder how Tom feels about this product's association with OT's SINE?


----------



## Supremo

artomatic said:


> I wonder how Tom feels about this product's association with OT's SINE?



I bet Tom experiences the same issues with Sine on his Cubase template and feels quite awkward.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Supremo said:


> I bet Tom experiences the same issues with Sine on his Cubase template and feels quite awkward.


doubt that. 

many seem to have better luck with vepro 

that said I'm 2 for 2. both my daw and my laptop have had little to no issue since it came out. I don't think I have a fancy version of windows 10 or anything, but I feel bad for those not so lucky.


----------



## Zanshin

ProfoundSilence said:


> doubt that.
> 
> many seem to have better luck with vepro
> 
> that said I'm 2 for 2. both my daw and my laptop have had little to no issue since it came out. I don't think I have a fancy version of windows 10 or anything, but I feel bad for those not so lucky.



Same here. Cubase 10.5 on Win 10. Works great for me. I do feel for those having problems though ...


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Zanshin said:


> Same here. Cubase 10.5 on Win 10. Works great for me. I do feel for those having problems though ...


The only problem I have is the permanent sustain pedal if I use my sustained, because it's not the typical on off sustain, but rather a full range continuous controller

And that seems to be a pretty common problem with a lot of software that isn't expecting that


----------



## Kartus

Do you have like me a Roland DP-10 sustain pedal? I use continuous mode and SINE with JXL, Ark 1+2.

Sometimes the sustain is stucked and dont release anymore.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Kartus said:


> Do you have like me a Roland DP-10 sustain pedal? I use continuous mode and SINE with JXL, Ark 1+2.
> 
> Sometimes the sustain is stucked and dont release anymore.


i use a yamaha fc3a, plugged into my s88.

I HAD two, but my damn cat is in LOVE with the devils spaghetti and chewed threw the cord of my 2nd one which was my soft pedal 

I really should be plugging in a normal one, a lot of kontakt libraries freak out when they get those messages too - and I've got a 3rd jack available on the machine jam


----------



## Aldo_arf

Aldo_arf said:


> Does anyone that has MA1 in SINE (1.04) knows if you’re able to activate legato on High Strings? I’m only able to activate it on Sustain Octaves/Legato and Sustain Octaves but in any other long articulation such as Unison Sus or Marcatos it fails to activate. I’m able change to legato on Low Strings so that’s why I’m confused.
> 
> Thanks.


 For those wondering, it is not a bug. 
Here is OT support feedback:

"The MA1 High Strings have their legato recorded in octaves (because it is intended for the Octave Sustains). That's why it can't be applied to the unison sustains. It was actually a bug in the Kontakt version that you could apply it anywhere and tons of users complained."


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Aldo_arf said:


> For those wondering, it is not a bug.
> Here is OT support feedback:
> 
> "The MA1 High Strings have their legato recorded in octaves (because it is intended for the Octave Sustains). That's why it can't be applied to the unison sustains. It was actually a bug in the Kontakt version that you could apply it anywhere and tons of users complained."


ohh wow, I didn't even really think about it - I just assumed maybe some users were experiencing a bug, but that makes a lot of sense considering there was no legato for unison sustains


----------



## OrchestralTools

Hey everyone,

Thank you to everyone who reached out to our support and wrote in this thread—we can confirm that we’ve found a bug that occurs when using the new SINE version (1.0.4) in Logic. The good news is we can reproduce this bug, so we’re working on a fix for it now, and we’ll provide the fix as soon as possible. We can’t put a date on the next update yet, but it’s coming soon. In the meantime, there’s a simple workaround for the problem. 

*If you’re on Logic*, the current workaround is to revert to the previous SINE version. You can download it here:

SINE Player v1.0.3.509 (*macOS*): 
https://orchtools-sine.s3.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/SINE_Player_1.0.3.509.pkg

SINE Player v1.0.3.509 (*Windows*):
https://orchtools-sine.s3.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/SINE_Player_1.0.3.509.exe​

We’re also aware of the hanging notes bug, and we’re working on a fix for this too.
Please note that we’ve also been able to reproduce hanging notes in Cubase - feel free to email us with project examples that show this or other issues!

Apologies for any inconvenience caused. And as always, please keep reporting issues, and thanks for being patient.

Other DAWs seem to be unaffected, so if you’re not on Logic you should definitely keep using the latest SINE version.

Let us know if you have any questions.

Best,

OT


----------



## emilio_n

I am in Logic and not affected by the moment but is nice to know that I can back to the version v1.0.3 if I find problems.

Looking forward to new more stable versions in any case 
Thanks for the hard work.


----------



## emilio_n

Sadly I need to report that I am playing with MA2 during the last 2 hours and Logic crashed around 8 times and I need to restart the program manually another couple of times. 
Mostly each time that I tried to add am articulation of an MA2 instrument. Lucky the autosave of Logic saved most of the times all my work!

I will try to downgrade to 1.0.3 and cross fingers to get more stability.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

hey hendrik, im certainly no expert on the situation, but given the nature of young software with a limited userbase - and also for convenience of data purposes, It seems like it would be a good idea to have a repository of prior installations.


This way, if there is an issue - they can always reinstall the version that was more stable for them while they wait for an update.


----------



## gpax

For me, there is irony in being told to roll back to a previous unstable version to account for the current bug(s) where Logic users are concerned - it reflects everything I said in the other thread about the process.

When I say I cannot justify purchasing more OT releases at this point, it is not as a matter of protest, but just pragmatically acknowledging the state of SINE. With much appreciation for the updated post (even as I pause to contemplate Logic as the outlier, which I’ve heard from OT before), it is not a question of indulging my patience, but rather, how I’ve hit that wall where I can’t keep putting into an investment so long as the dividends are not yet paying off.

I interpret the above information as acknowledging that more reliable stability in Logic is yet forthcoming in a version that has not yet been released.


----------



## emilio_n

gpax said:


> For me, there is irony in being told to roll back to a previous unstable version to account for the current bug(s) where Logic users are concerned - it reflects everything I said in the other thread about the process.
> 
> When I say I cannot justify purchasing more OT releases at this point, it is not as a matter of protest, but just pragmatically acknowledging the state of SINE. With much appreciation for the updated post (even as I pause to contemplate Logic as the outlier, which I’ve heard from OT before), it is not a question of indulging my patience, but rather, how I’ve hit that wall where I can’t keep putting into an investment so long as the dividends are not yet paying off.
> 
> I interpret the above information as acknowledging that more reliable stability in Logic is yet forthcoming in a version that has not yet been released.


I need to be agreed with you. After 4 frustrating hours with a small project of fewer than 15 tracks mixing Kontakt and Sine libraries, each time I need to change articulations in Sine means a Logic crash. 
I understand that this player is on early development but then you need to keep on beta offering your libraries on Kontakt and Sine format simultaneously. Is fair to let the customers work while you are fixing the bugs. 

I am not rush to complete a project that needs OT libraries. (Famous to be incredible good but to be in the expensive side as well) If I were in that situation, I would be totally frustrated, angry and with great helplessness. I have downgraded to version 1.0.3 and still have the same errors.

I am sure that you are working as fast you can to make Sine ready for the prime time and I trust that will be a great player in the future but meanwhile, your customers are suffering the consequences of a no mature software.


----------



## Daniel Go

For me to revert to SINE 1.0.3 in both the standalone version and Logic plugin, first it was necessary to *manually remove the application and the player component* (it didn't work just downloading the pkg installer and following the process).

So, in case it helps someone else, here's what I did:


Manually remove SINE app from Applications folder
Manually remove Logic plugin located here: HD > Library > Audio > Plug-Ins > Components > SINE Player.component
Install version 1.0.3 with the provided pkg installer

I did some testing inside Logic and can confirm that 1.0.3 is way more stable than 1.0.4. No crashes or freezes changing instruments or articulations.

By the way, to check which version of SINE is running (both in standalone and Logic plugin) you have to click on the OT logo (top left corner).


----------



## Kevperry777

Daniel Go said:


> For me to revert to SINE 1.0.3 in both the standalone version and Logic plugin, first it was necessary to *manually remove the application and the player component* (it didn't work just downloading the pkg installer and following the process).
> 
> So, in case it helps someone else, here's what I did:
> 
> 
> Manually remove SINE app from Applications folder
> Manually remove Logic plugin located here: HD > Library > Audio > Plug-Ins > Components > SINE Player.component
> Install version 1.0.3 with the provided pkg installer
> 
> I did some testing inside Logic and can confirm that 1.0.3 is way more stable than 1.0.4. No crashes or freezes changing instruments or articulations.
> 
> By the way, to check which version of SINE is running (both in standalone and Logic plugin) you have to click on the OT logo (top left corner).



Thanks for this....working great for me now. Nice to have my OT libraries back.


----------



## Igorianych

My new version of the Sine - stopped opening in standalone mode. Works in Cubase, but kill Cubase in the process of closing it. Yes, there are hanging notes too.

Do you have any plans to release Junky brass and Amber for Kontakt?

macos 10.15.5
MacBook Pro (16-inch, 2019)
2,3 GHz 8-Core Intel Core i9
64 GB 2667 MHz DDR4

cubase 10.5.2


----------



## Russonja

ProfoundSilence said:


> firewall? antivirus?
> 
> something blocking its connection?


Has anyone found a solution to "Your System Is Currently Offline" yet?


----------



## Russonja

Syneast said:


> Does anyone else get the "Your System is currently offline" alert when trying to run SINE? My system is connected to the internet as evident by the fact that I am posting this, but still no dice with the player.


Did you find a solution to this problem? I'm having the same here. Some Fabulous tracks on Soundcloud by the way.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Sadly, I’m experiencing some crashes on 1.03 in Logic as well - and have run into some occurrences where key switches no longer work and change the articulation (using Logic’s articulation settings). Rather frustrating!


----------



## Scottyb

Super hopeful this is rectified soon. : /


----------



## sourcefor

Yup me too...Crashes everytime I try to Close or Switch the Sine player Articulations...Bummer! I just ported all of My Metropolis Ark library over...yikes!


----------



## jononotbono

Here’s something people may not know about. In the past month I’ve been using an iMac and a Trashcan Mac Pro. I’ve been using my Cloned OSX drive and each time I’ve switched computers I’ve had to relicense my licenses. So the first time I did this, I had Cubase open and didn’t think about the license for Sine and JXL Brass. I had to put my details into the Sine login when I clicked on an instrument track. Doing this wiped all articulations inside the player. Also all mic positions including any merged positions.

The next time I swapped computers I tried it in standalone first. Logged into Sine. And then once closed, I loaded Cubase, the project and then clicked on the instrument track and all articulations, mic positions and merged mics were all there.

Just thought I’d share that experience in case anyone makes the same mistake.


----------



## Larbguy

I had a similar experience with my mics and artics being wiped, and then coming back after signing in the order you described. This happened to be in Logic, so it's not just a Cubase issue. 

I'll say, I absolutely love OT, I have their entire Ark series and Inspires, and I still use SINE in my projects because, while it does crash, the quality of the stuff just outweighs the negatives for me.

That being said, as it is, this thing is broken af lol. the player crashes Logic, without fail, anytime I try to close the DAW. Duplicating SINE instances is like a 50/50 crash chance. The poor thing crashed one time when I tried to upload a single articulation into a freshly loaded, blank instance. As it is, its laughably busted.

Still though, I've learned its current quirks enough to deal with it and still get great results with it. The layout itself is great and intuitive, in my opinion. i 100% believe OT is working hard on it and will fix it. once this thing is stable it will be amazing.


----------



## jcrosby

Larbguy said:


> That being said, as it is, this thing is broken af lol. the player crashes Logic, without fail, anytime I try to close the DAW. Duplicating SINE instances is like a 50/50 crash chance. The poor thing crashed one time when I tried to upload a single articulation into a freshly loaded, blank instance. As it is, its laughably busted.


I can confirm I have all of the same issues above. 10.14 and 10.15, behavior's the same in each OS.

On top of that Sine is the only VI that totally wipes itself out when Logic crashes. Normally only the last instance of an instrument goes missing if Logic crashes, (even then that's not always the case. Most restore fine when clicking 'auto-saved'.) with Sine all instruments added before the last save are totally wiped out with no option but to rebuild them all over again.

While I love OT as well, (1st call as far as orchestral VIs go), Sine is indeed _Broken AF _for the time being.


----------



## Kevinside

No AAX?... Will there be an AAX Version for all the Protools Users out there in Film and Post Pro...


----------



## OT_Tobias

Hey everyone,

we just wanted to give you a quick update on our hotfix for Logic.

After seeing the feedback here, we immediately went back to find out what was going on and got a lot of valuable feedback from users with steps to reproduce, crashlogs, etc. Since then, we’ve been able to fix a) the crash when loading into the 2nd instance within Logic while playback is running, b) the crash when opening a new project after having SINE in an earlier one, c) the Cubase freeze when freezing an instrument track with SINE in it, and d) the hanging notes when overlapping keyswitches. We’ve also fixed the freeze when loading SINE without a running audio driver.
Interestingly, we saw that most of those issues were being caused by a single issue that had slipped into the last SINE update.

Our learning from this is that we’ve stepped up regression testing especially for Logic in addition to our regular testing and beta testing procedure.

So what happens next? Now that the fix is in, we’re doing testing again, and we’ll then create the new builds for Mac and Windows. As soon as we have those, we’ll perform our regression tests again and if everything runs through smoothly, we’ll be able to release the hotfix within the coming days.

Until that fix is available, if you’ve been experiencing issues, please just use the older SINE version for now.

Thanks all for your patience!

All the best! 

Tobias


----------



## Syneast

Russonja said:


> Did you find a solution to this problem? I'm having the same here. Some Fabulous tracks on Soundcloud by the way.


Oh thanks! Haven't found a solution, sadly. It seemed to work fine on my laptop though.


----------



## Kevinside

aax...


----------



## Geoff Grace

Kevinside said:


> aax...


Be careful what you wish for...

I've been clamoring for an AAX version since the beginning; but in light of the bug reports, I'm no longer in a hurry. I'd just as soon wait for a stable version before they release it for Pro Tools. YMMV, though. 

My understanding is that an AAX version is in the works. However, I wouldn't be surprised if Avid were responsible—either in part, or entirely—for the delay. 

In the meantime as a workaround, Orchestral Tools has suggested using Vienna Ensemble Pro to host SINE when using Pro Tools. I'm not interested in going that route, but it remains an option for those who already use VEP or are willing to buy it. 

Best,

Geoff


----------



## zigzag

OT_Tobias said:


> Our learning from this is that we’ve stepped up regression testing especially for Logic in addition to our regular testing and beta testing procedure.


An open beta release channel might be a good option for SINE. It may help to catch bugs like this before they make it in to the stable release channel.


----------



## OrchestralTools

Hey everyone,

There’s a *new SINE update available*—version 1.0.5.

It’s a stability update, and it resolves freezes and crashes that some of you experienced recently in Logic. We’ve also added a number of other fixes, tweaks, and improvements. For details, read the full changelog here.

*How to update*

Download from www.getsine.com and install. The new SINE version will replace your old one.

Got questions? Tobias has created some useful documents on our Helpdesk: https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/

We’re going to keep these updates coming, working continuously towards making SINE rock solid for everyone. And if you do run into a bug while using SINE, please report it at: [email protected]

Best,

OT


----------



## ProfoundSilence

(Must watch) Chad Sine Player DESTROYS bugs with MACS and LOGIC [not clickbait]


----------



## Larbguy

didn't have too much time to mess with it extensively, but I loaded a project that has a lot of SINE instances in it, and messed around a bit. I tried everything that caused crashes in the past (deleted tracks with SINE, duplicated tracks with SINE, changed a bunch of articulations, dragged a couple artics in and deleted them immediately, closed the program, etc). ZERO CRASHES! Im so stoked right now. Great job


----------



## Beans

I think y'all should celebrate with some big sales. It would be a great way to bring visibility to a (now resolved) reason why some people chose to not adopt SINE, especially if prior caution won out and earlier sales/intro deals were missed.


----------



## jamwerks

Hoping for Glory Days on Sine soon with a big sale!


----------



## muddyblue

New Update 1.0.5 works fine in Logic for me right now!


----------



## Kevperry777

So far so good. Loading and unloading is stable in Logic. Thanks OT!


----------



## Kevperry777

I loaded and unloaded every sound in every SINE library I have (Ark 1, inspire 1 and 2, Junkie XL) played through them all and didn’t have 1 crash in Logic. Setup multis and ensembles...no issues. Good to have these back working in the template!


----------



## Loïc D

Same here, no issues at all when tweaking a patch in standalone. Will try Logic tomorrow.


----------



## mr336

1.0.5 in Logic seems stable for me as well. No crashes yet.
Ha
Lay
Free
Kin
Lou
Ya


----------



## dylanmixer

+1 for celebrating with some sales, @OrchestralTools 😎


----------



## matthieuL

A recurrent crash I had with Cubase and VE PRO has gone too !


----------



## matthieuL

For people who had problems with SINE : please test and testify it's working now. We have to repair the actual bad reputation of SINE !


----------



## Lionel Schmitt

Yay, it finally fits on my screen! :D


----------



## jcrosby

So far it's been super stable in Logic. Load times seem to have been reduced greatly as well.


----------



## jononotbono

matthieuL said:


> A recurrent crash I had with Cubase and VE PRO has gone too !



Yeah? Ah man! Looking forward to trying this out later!


----------



## ProfoundSilence

jononotbono said:


> Yeah? Ah man! Looking forward to trying this out later!


they aren't crashing because you aren't on. 

the moment sine sees Jono launch the plugin it spazzes theirs out. 1.05 works because the removed you from it


----------



## jononotbono

ProfoundSilence said:


> they aren't crashing because you aren't on.
> 
> the moment sine sees Jono launch the plugin it spazzes theirs out. 1.05 works because the removed you from it



What time you on?


----------



## kgdrum

Hi 👋
when Amber was released,I held off due to the reports of Issues with the stability of the Sine Player and possible CPU demands.
Can any Amber Mac users confirm that Amber is easier to use after the latest Sine 1.0.5 update?

Thanks


----------



## jbuhler

I haven’t had time to update and try it out yet. Hopefully this weekend.


----------



## kgdrum

jbuhler said:


> I haven’t had time to update and try it out yet. Hopefully this weekend.




Great thanks 👍


----------



## Teldex

Latest update so far so good in Cakewalk.


----------



## jononotbono

I’ve not had a single crash since latest SINE update and with Cubase 10.5.20.


----------



## Kevperry777

jononotbono said:


> I’ve not had a single crash since latest SINE update and with Cubase 10.5.20.



Same for me on Logic.


----------



## zimm83

Hy . Just realized that sine player is MULTITIMBRAL !
In the helpdesk, they say you can have instruments in the same midi channel. Man ,,,,that changes everything for me. Will download my Sine ARK versions and try to recreate Kontakt's multis.
If it works . I'm IN !
One question : are ou still working on the AUTO- ARRANGER feature you announced 5 months ago ? Should be a cool feature.

Last question : can we stack instruments from different libraries ?
Thanks.


----------



## jononotbono

zimm83 said:


> Last question : can we stack instruments from different libraries ?



Yes.

Man, it's the Spitfire player that isn't multitimbral


----------



## zimm83

jononotbono said:


> Yes.
> 
> Man, it's the Spitfire player that isn't multitimbral


Thanks. I totally missed that. Thanks again.


----------



## jononotbono

zimm83 said:


> Thanks. I totally missed that. Thanks again.



If you are just about to jump onto SINE it’s easily the best time. I still haven’t had a crash since the latest version. This is very different to every version before now so it’s a perfect time!


----------



## zimm83

jononotbono said:


> If you are just about to jump onto SINE it’s easily the best time. I still haven’t had a crash since the latest version. This is very different to every version before now so it’s a perfect time!


Cool .thanks. Yes...it is time !


----------



## Geoff Grace

It's not time for me: no AAX version as of yet.

Now that SINE seems to finally be stable, I hope the wait will soon be over.

Best,

Geoff


----------



## Larbguy

zimm83 said:


> Hy . Just realized that sine player is MULTITIMBRAL !
> In the helpdesk, they say you can have instruments in the same midi channel. Man ,,,,that changes everything for me. Will download my Sine ARK versions and try to recreate Kontakt's multis.
> If it works . I'm IN !
> One question : are ou still working on the AUTO- ARRANGER feature you announced 5 months ago ? Should be a cool feature.
> 
> Last question : can we stack instruments from different libraries ?
> Thanks.


yup really easy to make multis. i do hope when they port arks 3 & 4, the multis come prebuilt or something tho as well. sometimes i really like picking a multi without having to think, especially when im sketching
maybe there is an option to save multi-presets within sine that i missed? would be cool if there was something like this similar to saving mic mixes.
and yeah, ive made combined multis with dif libraries, as well as some cool sounds using the x-fade feature. 
pretty easy to make adventure-style presets and crazy mixes. 
recently i started getting weird with mixing stuff like arbos, tableau viola, and ark2 string trems all in one patch. 
now that it's stable, i can't wait till all their libraries are on here.


----------



## zimm83

Larbguy said:


> yup really easy to make multis. i do hope when they port arks 3 & 4, the multis come prebuilt or something tho as well. sometimes i really like picking a multi without having to think, especially when im sketching
> maybe there is an option to save multi-presets within sine that i missed? would be cool if there was something like this similar to saving mic mixes.
> and yeah, ive made combined multis with dif libraries, as well as some cool sounds using the x-fade feature.
> pretty easy to make adventure-style presets and crazy mixes.
> recently i started getting weird with mixing stuff like arbos, tableau viola, and ark2 string trems all in one patch.
> now that it's stable, i can't wait till all their libraries are on here.


Ok thanks a lot.

I think you can do that :(found it in the Ot helpdesk ) :


*Saving/Loading Presets*


If you have set up an instance of SINE however you like it, you can save the state by choosing Save from the top of the window. Here you can also load a saved state by choosing Load.

Could it be that ?


----------



## matthieuL

Larbguy said:


> yup really easy to make multis. i do hope when they port arks 3 & 4, the multis come prebuilt or something tho as well. sometimes i really like picking a multi without having to think, especially when im sketching
> maybe there is an option to save multi-presets within sine that i missed? would be cool if there was something like this similar to saving mic mixes.
> and yeah, ive made combined multis with dif libraries, as well as some cool sounds using the x-fade feature.
> pretty easy to make adventure-style presets and crazy mixes.
> recently i started getting weird with mixing stuff like arbos, tableau viola, and ark2 string trems all in one patch.
> now that it's stable, i can't wait till all their libraries are on here.



The problem is that in a multi (multiple patches sharing the same channel, with different keyswitches) we can't include patches having only 1 articulation, as we can't change its keyswitch (if I'm correct). Then it would always play.
I don't know if it's a bug/oblivion, or a known limitation for the moment.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

matthieuL said:


> The problem is that in a multi (multiple patches sharing the same channel, with different keyswitches) we can't include patches having only 1 articulation, as we can't change its keyswitch (if I'm correct). Then it would always play.
> I don't know if it's a bug/oblivion, or a known limitation for the moment.




There is a workaround if I'm understanding your problem, that would be adding "dummy" articulations, stripping them to 1 dynamic/1 rr and turning thier volume to 0. 

It doesn't cost any extra Ram, but I'm not sure if I understand what you're trying to do because most of the time people don't stack instruments like that and then also use key switches oh, because it would create that same issue even in kontakt


----------



## matthieuL

ProfoundSilence said:


> There is a workaround if I'm understanding your problem, that would be adding "dummy" articulations, stripping them to 1 dynamic/1 rr and turning thier volume to 0.


Ah yes, using the Duplicate function (right click on the articulation) ! Great idea.
But it's a little tedious, as we have to add dummy articulations in all patches (each patch should have the same number of articulations), since with the same channel for several patches a single note plays all the selected articulations (white ones).


----------



## ProfoundSilence

matthieuL said:


> Ah yes, using the Duplicate function (right click on the articulation) ! Great idea.
> But it's a little tedious, as we have to add dummy articulations in all patches (each patch should have the same number of articulations), since with the same channel for several patches a single note plays all the selected articulations (white ones).


Do you know of kontakt libraries you are trying to mimic? This would still be a problem that no other player solves so I'm kind of confused oh, maybe I'm just misunderstanding you


----------



## shawnsingh

There are plenty of examples I can think of to want to do this:
- making all layered instruments have a consistent keyswitching system, even if they're missing articulations
- using keyswitching to change layering, for example C0 can play both sustain and marcato, while C#0 could play only sustain without marcato
- To combine two different instruments into one keyswitch setup, even though they're not layered.

I'm not entirely sure, but is it possible Capsule was able to do this by just clearing the articulation on a particular keyswitch?


----------



## shawnsingh

EDIT - realized this idea won't work!

I'm not able to try and double-check right now, but I think another way to skip keyswitches could be to load each articulation into a separate instrument (i.e. the container for articulations that you can assign midi channels), but assign them all to the same channel. Then you can have different starting keyswitch for each articulation that way without needing to fill stuff in between.

This might avoid the hacky silent articulation, but on the other hand it can complicate the organization of instruments in one instance of Sine - it's like trading one awkwardness for another so it depends on how you're using Sine overall, which one is better.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

So the goal is to stack capsule equivalent multi's with empty keyswitches? 

I asked for an empty articulation before Sine was even shown, so I can do my crossfade between libraries thing easier - my guess is they will eventually add one. silent articulations are easy to add, but reducing them to minimal resource use is a little more time consuming depending on the library. Rips in JXL are the best for that, they are just 1 shots and are single dynamic layers already - but other SINE libraries might have to be worked on a little more. Setup is setup to me, so doesn't bother me much


----------



## shawnsingh

Oh, I just realized my idea of loading one articulation per path/instrument won't work. That's the whole problem in the first place - that keyswitches don't deactivate when another undefined keyswitch is used.

But I think it's also useful the way it is now, for some other cases. So I agree, the request to OT should be to allow for blank articulations...


----------



## zimm83

Trying sine....Must we always be online with this player or not ?
Can we use it offline once the libraries installed ? Thanks.


----------



## Loïc D

zimm83 said:


> Trying sine....Must we always be online with this player or not ?
> Can we use it offline once the libraries installed ? Thanks.


AFAIK, yes online connection is only mandatory to download/authorize/browse shop.


----------



## zimm83

Loïc D said:


> AFAIK, yes online connection is only mandatory to download/authorize/browse shop.


Okay thanks a lot.
Can we use Sine player and libs on 2 computers ?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

zimm83 said:


> Okay thanks a lot.
> Can we use Sine player and libs on 2 computers ?


yes, but I'm not sure if that's simultaneously


----------



## zimm83

ProfoundSilence said:


> yes, but I'm not sure if that's simultaneously


Okay thanks. Cause i don't want to download libs 2 times...


----------



## ProfoundSilence

zimm83 said:


> Okay thanks. Cause i don't want to download libs 2 times...


well I have it on my laptop and my desktop, but I've never attempted to use them at the same time


----------



## Simon Ravn

Anyone else having extremely slow downloads with SINE? It sort of starts out really fast, then it crawls to a halt after a few seconds. E.g. it has taken some 20-30 minutes to get Phoenix "Yangqin Ensemble a2" down. And the next in line "Zhongruan" is barely moving.

If I quit SINE, start again, it will download fast for a few seconds again, then slow down.


----------



## ShoeHorn

Simon Ravn said:


> Anyone else having extremely slow downloads with SINE? It sort of starts out really fast, then it crawls to a halt after a few seconds. E.g. it has taken some 20-30 minutes to get Phoenix "Yangqin Ensemble a2" down. And the next in line "Zhongruan" is barely moving.
> 
> If I quit SINE, start again, it will download fast for a few seconds again, then slow down.



Yes, having all sorts of troubles. The first few instruments went fine. But now it's hanging and crashing S1. Might give up and try again tomorrow.


----------



## zimm83

HY. Can we midi learn mixes or something else? 
Tried but nothing works.... no right click possible.
Thanks.


----------



## PuerAzaelis

Simon Ravn said:


> Anyone else having extremely slow downloads with SINE? It sort of starts out really fast, then it crawls to a halt after a few seconds. E.g. it has taken some 20-30 minutes to get Phoenix "Yangqin Ensemble a2" down. And the next in line "Zhongruan" is barely moving.
> 
> If I quit SINE, start again, it will download fast for a few seconds again, then slow down.


It took me two days to dl Ark 1


----------



## benmode

Hey guys, I have a question! Sorry if it has already been mentioned and I've been unable to find it.

I'm using a separate controller to select the keyswitches, starting at C-2 for all instruments. I've set this in the options and saved the settings and that's all cool, but I was wondering if there's a way to make this the default setting whenever an instance is loaded? Just so I can save myself those HELLISH two seconds of loading the settings.


----------



## davidson

*Please*, for the love of god, can someone explain how to choose a location for downloading and installing libraries with this thing? I can choose from my drives, but actual folder location - forget about it.

Theres something about sine I just cant get my head around, I absolutely hate it. It's slow, unintuitive (to me) and generally disgusting to use. OT libraries sound wise are brilliant, I just wish they'd stick to kontakt.


----------



## muziksculp

I can't wait to see OT Berlin Series all in SINE format. 

@OrchestralTools ,

Hi,

Can we expect at least Berlin Strings, and the First Chairs (EXP-D) before Feb. 2021 ? 

I wish I can fast forward time to have a all my Berlin Orchestral libraries, and expansions in SINE format. Hopefully this won't take another year to complete. 

Thanks.


----------



## Sheridan

+1


----------



## bvaughn0402

+3000


----------



## ProfoundSilence

-50dkp


----------



## Digivolt

Would be great if the player would actually show values eg, the number the volume slider is at on the mixer window ?


----------



## Mucusman

Loïc D said:


> AFAIK, yes online connection is only mandatory to download/authorize/browse shop.



I don't know about that. Today, for the first time, I loaded SINE to play some of my downloaded content when I wasn't connected to the internet... and I received an error message saying that my copy of SINE couldn't be authorized or authenticated (I forget the exact language). This stopped me in my tracks (as my computer wasn't connected to the internet at that time). Is this normal? Is there a way to bypass that to use the player for already downloaded content?


----------



## jcrosby

Digivolt said:


> Would be great if the player would actually show values eg, the number the volume slider is at on the mixer window ?


100%. And the ability to type in values.


----------



## Pier

So I'm trying to change the library and download locations for the Sine player.

I downloaded a couple of free libraries and then followed these instructions:






Moving Collections to a Different Location - Orchestral Tools Helpdesk


If you want to move SINEplayer instruments to a new location, the fastest way is to delete the respective collection from the Library, move the files and then r




orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com





So I moved the Orchestral Tools folder from its original default location (User/App Data/Local/) to the new one. So far so good.

But now when downloading new libraries these are not installed in the new location but the default one and my library is split in two.

Anyone knows how to properly move the new libraries downloaded in the default location to the location I want to use? Obviously now I can't move the whole Orchestral Tools folder from its default location to the new one as it will replace the folder.

I tried just moving the folder inside content and then reimport that, but Sine player is so dumb it will not redownload the images.


----------



## David Kudell

Pier said:


> So I'm trying to change the library and download locations for the Sine player.
> 
> I downloaded a couple of free libraries and then followed these instructions:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moving Collections to a Different Location - Orchestral Tools Helpdesk
> 
> 
> If you want to move SINEplayer instruments to a new location, the fastest way is to delete the respective collection from the Library, move the files and then r
> 
> 
> 
> 
> orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I moved the Orchestral Tools folder from its original default location (User/App Data/Local/) to the new one. So far so good.
> 
> But now when downloading new libraries these are not installed in the new location but the default one and my library is split in two.
> 
> Anyone knows how to properly move the new libraries downloaded in the default location to the location I want to use? Obviously now I can't move the whole Orchestral Tools folder from its default location to the new one as it will replace the folder.
> 
> I tried just moving the folder inside content and then reimport that, but Sine player is so dumb it will not redownload the images.



I would suggest getting the advice of OT support, this is a fairly easy fix.


----------



## Pier

David Kudell said:


> I would suggest getting the advice of OT support, this is a fairly easy fix.


What's the fix?


----------



## Zero&One

Pier said:


> What's the fix?


For the images to download again, go to the online tab (licences) then back. They appear again


----------



## Bernard Duc

Is there anyway to tighten the attack of samples? @OrchestralTools I just had a call with a top composer who was complaining about the delay on Berlin Strings shorts. I thought there was a control to start the samples slightly later, but I just realized that's not the case. This would be a very welcome addition, and I hope a very easy one to implement. GUI wise it should probably part of the Envelope window.


----------



## motomotomoto

perhaps a dumb question but I don't see an answer on OT's site. Is there a way to specify an external SSD for instal of libraries from the get go instead of moving them after? My internal SSD space is very limited.


----------



## David Kudell

motomotomoto said:


> perhaps a dumb question but I don't see an answer on OT's site. Is there a way to specify an external SSD for instal of libraries from the get go instead of moving them after? My internal SSD space is very limited.


When you download one of your libraries it asks you what drive to put it on.


----------



## Pier

David Kudell said:


> When you download one of your libraries it asks you what drive to put it on.


Depends.

I have 4 drives on my Windows machine and I could only select C: because instead of mounting them as letters (D:, E:, etc) I mounted the drives as volumes at a particular folder (like what Unix/Linux/macOS do). And because you can't select a folder for the installation it will only install at the default location.


----------



## motomotomoto

Pier said:


> Depends.
> 
> I have 4 drives on my Windows machine and I could only select C: because instead of mounting them as letters (D:, E:, etc) I mounted the drives as volumes at a particular folder (like what Unix/Linux/macOS do). And because you can't select a folder for the installation it will only install at the default location.


Hmmm I suppose I will have to try and see what happens. Hopefully they make it an easy process. I like the sound of the demos and am excited to try out some of their stuff.


----------



## Pier

motomotomoto said:


> Hmmm I suppose I will have to try and see what happens. Hopefully they make it an easy process. I like the sound of the demos and am excited to try out some of their stuff.


You can move sample folders around and then re-add them to the library. It's a bit buggy, but it works.


----------



## Just1Ghost

OrchestralTools said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> We just dropped a Layers walkthrough video!
> 
> You can watch it here:
> 
> 
> 
> We've been so busy at NAMM, but we're reading your comments and we'll get back to you all soon. Remember if you have any issues please reach out to our dedicated support team at [email protected].
> 
> Best,
> 
> OT Team



I'm not a hater, I promise...I'm just saying someone should have reviewed the VoiceOver before releasing it; the VA who voiced the video NEEDS to make sure he knows the proper pronunciation of very key words, such as the pronunciation of "Triad" being said "TRY-ad" and not "TREE-ad". I thank you for your time.


----------



## Casiquire

Does SINE have a level lock option when adjusting mic positions similar to Capsule, and if not, is it planned for the near future? Thanks


----------



## hsinn

Russonja said:


> Has anyone found a solution to "Your System Is Currently Offline" yet?


Hi, i try this!!!! Cause​TLS1.0/1.1/1.2 is not selected in Internet Explorer, your country or region is inconsistent with the regional format, or the network or Microsoft server is unstable.
Solution​

Click the Settings icon in the upper right corner of Internet Explorer and select Internet options.


Click Advanced, select Use TLS 1.0, Use TLS 1.1, and Use TLS 1.2 in the *Settings*bar, and then click OK. Then open Sineplayer again.


----------



## hsinn

Syneast said:


> Does anyone else get the "Your System is currently offline" alert when trying to run SINE? My system is connected to the internet as evident by the fact that I am posting this, but still no dice with the player.


Hi, try this!!!! Cause​TLS1.0/1.1/1.2 is not selected in Internet Explorer, your country or region is inconsistent with the regional format, or the network or Microsoft server is unstable.
Solution​

Click the Settings icon in the upper right corner of Internet Explorer and select Internet options.


Click Advanced, select Use TLS 1.0, Use TLS 1.1, and Use TLS 1.2 in the *Settings*bar, and then click OK. Then open Sineplayer again.


----------



## Shad0wLandsUK

Perhaps Orchestral Tools can update their Application...

It has been almost 1 year now with 0 updates to the software

Looking at the installer in a package manager I can see v1.0.5 was signed in September 2020


----------



## JTB

And please may we have the ability to switch from CC controls Xfade to Velocity controls Xfade via CC message. Like CAPSULE has. I cannot use Sine with Berlin Strings if this feature is not implemented.

This means I can play my keyboard at different velocities while also being able to draw in Xfade curves in my DAW. I've never been a fan of riding the fader with one hand while playing the keyboard with the other. This has always seemed odd to me as what happens if your playing in the bass clef and your fader is on your left. Awkward much.


----------



## Giovanni dall Camera

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> Perhaps Orchestral Tools can update their Application...
> 
> It has been almost 1 year now with 0 updates to the software
> 
> Looking at the installer in a package manager I can see v1.0.5 was signed in September 2020


I guess they have to keep distance to their computers so that it doesn’t a catch deadly virus or something …


----------



## Germain B

Everytime this thread pops up in the "Latest Posts" I think the long awaited Sine update is finally here.

First time I'm really working with Sine on an ambitious project as I really need the beautiful sound of Berlin Symphonic Strings...
I avoided Sine because I only have 32gb of ram and there is no good purge function like in Kontakt (especially 'update pool samples').
So here I have to do a workaround : I bounced everything to audio except the strings so I can work on their programing.
I'm using 5 tracks : 1 for each string sections, with every articulation loaded, and only 1 mic (Tree). I'm using less than 50% of my ram, should be fine...
But it's giving me nightmare. Just playing the track and stopping and it almost crash everytime (my playhead is going back were it was before starting)... I get that machine gun effect in my speaker and I have to reopen every instances of Sine so it can stop... But then my audio interface seems to be lost...
I'm nearly giving up... I never encounter such problems before.

I'm really looking forward for the (imminent) update so i can just use what I bought.


----------



## JTB

Sine is pretty bad with hanging notes. Maybe they will address this in the next update. Maybe.


----------



## Germain B

Yeah. I gave up.
I don't want to really incriminate Sine as I might be doing something wrong (we never know...) but it's weird.


----------



## oooooooooooooooooh

Does anyone else have issues with note releases? My legatos sound terrible, I gave a full spiel in another topic, it's frustrating as could be: https://vi-control.net/community/th...-player-messed-up-legato.113843/#post-4902530


----------



## Germain B

Alright, I solved my main issue this morning.
I had trouble with the articulation mode that switched to poly, somehow, and my DAW (and myself) was going crazy.
I switched back everything to mono, and now I can work.

I still really need a good purge function.


----------



## MartinH.

What bothers me most about Sine is that it became the excuse to not fix known bugs in their Kontakt libraries, yet from the looks of it even 2 years later Sine isn't in better shape than the Kontakt libraries it's supposed to replace...


----------



## Robert Kooijman

Given the lack of updates and silence from OT, one is forgiven to conclude Sine's main function is that of a dongle.

Still no decent purge, still no freely assignable key-switches, still no under the hood editing, still the same uninspiring, boring interface.


----------



## JTB

Sine certainly doesn't inspire confidence as a piece of software. Compared to Vi Pro, Synchron player and Kontakt it feels somewhat half baked. UI wise, 1/4 baked.


----------



## Nimrod7

My view is that sample developers underestimated the effort required to build software.
They got motivation from NI's aggressive pricing, and thought to save that 10-20-30% or whatever it is.

Multiplatform software is expensive, both in terms of time and cost.
Features take long to build, tested, debugged.

Every sample library, might have different requirements (e.g. Berlin Strings), and those need to be coded from zero.

Engineering teams are expensive, and even engineering teams with expertise in sample streaming are nearly non existent.

Every engineer also get motivation from huge amounts of RSU's Amazon, Google, Facebook graciously offer, so keeping their teams compensated competitively, its becoming a real challenge, and attrition is a constant factor.

I don't have an insider look in any of the sample companies, but I know enough about this business and how it works.
Observing also the release cycle in OT, Spitfire, and how long EW took to release OPUS (which had a few famous coders), reinforces this.


----------



## JTB

Sine reeks of 'we can make more money if we own the player and don't have to pay NI anymore'

Sine does not say 'we have so many great ideas about how to enhance the end users creative process'


----------



## Wunderhorn

SINE as well as Spitfire Player, PLAY, Engine etc. do not offer any significant improvement over what we know from Kontakt. A few details here and there but nothing earth shattering.

*What it adds*: Individual learning curves. proprietary workflows. Different quirks and bugs to find out and deal with. Added complexity when making templates. More upkeep with individual ways of maintaining licenses. Different support teams to interact with. For the user this trend brings no gain but it is a massive waste of time to deal with all that - at best.

A noble way for a win-win situation would be this:
Sample developers get together and and agree on one platform. Each to contribute and profit from it in equal (proportional) portions. Competition would concentrate on content, the libraries themselves, not the platform.
(I know, this is most likely never to happen because in general capitalist prickishness is still regarded to be a sexy thing in the business world, but I feel that it does not hurt to express a few ideas on how things could look different.)


----------



## Jay Panikkar

Nimrod7 said:


> My view is that sample developers underestimated the effort required to build software.
> They got motivation from NI's aggressive pricing, and thought to save that 10-20-30% or whatever it is.
> 
> Multiplatform software is expensive, both in terms of time and cost.
> Features take long to build, tested, debugged.
> 
> Every sample library, might have different requirements (e.g. Berlin Strings), and those need to be coded from zero.
> 
> Engineering teams are expensive, and even engineering teams with expertise in sample streaming are nearly non existent.
> 
> Every engineer also get motivation from huge amounts of RSU's Amazon, Google, Facebook graciously offer, so keeping their teams compensated competitively, its becoming a real challenge, and attrition is a constant factor.
> 
> I don't have an insider look in any of the sample companies, but I know enough about this business and how it works.
> Observing also the release cycle in OT, Spitfire, and how long EW took to release OPUS (which had a few famous coders), reinforces this.


I agree.

On top of that, I think there's another issue here that's now pervasive across software development: releasing products without sufficient and proper testing. There's this misguided push—and this usually comes from the "top"—towards patching after release because it's all "minor stuff" that "can be fixed later." What usually ends up happening is that the developers get dragged into a prolonged debugging phase as they scramble to fix one thing, then unintentionally break another thing, and suddenly it's a vicious cycle.

Also, months—sometimes, years—later, issues that have been reported so many times even in the same thread are not fixed. It's as if there's no one to properly triage any of this—no one to keep track of issues in a systematic manner. Imo, sample developers building their own software should maintain public issue trackers so that their customers can see what's being worked on, and report if something slips through the cracks. Consequently, this will also save customer support resources.

It seems to me that this could have been easily streamlined since the beginning, but it's as if they're all hellbent on wasting their own time and resources.


----------



## G_Erland

Wunderhorn said:


> SINE as well as Spitfire Player, PLAY, Engine etc. do not offer any significant improvement over what we know from Kontakt. A few details here and there but nothing earth shattering.
> 
> *What it adds*: Individual learning curves. proprietary workflows. Different quirks and bugs to find out and deal with. Added complexity when making templates. More upkeep with individual ways of maintaining licenses. Different support teams to interact with. For the user this trend brings no gain but it is a massive waste of time to deal with all that - at best.
> 
> A noble way for a win-win situation would be this:
> Sample developers get together and and agree on one platform. Each to contribute and profit from it in equal (proportional) portions. Competition would concentrate on content, the libraries themselves, not the platform.
> (I know, this is most likely never to happen because in general capitalist prickishness is still regarded to be a sexy thing in the business world, but I feel that it does not hurt to express a few ideas on how things could look different.)


Id like to see the forum thread for this one unified player.


----------



## Loïc D

Problem is : the more you release products, the more you need to test each new release with every product.
So unless you’ve got a team dedicated to this task (I’m not sure automated tests can be run in our domain), you’re kind of stuck with one version.
I feel like OT is in this situation since an update was promised long ago IIRC.


----------



## Babe

I'm afraid that Sine may be on the same road as Play. A lot of promises, nothing done. Remember Play Pro? I have not purchased an EW product since they converted to Play.


----------



## TomaeusD

G_Erland said:


> Id like to see the forum thread for this one unified player.







__





Kontakt: Sampling, Programming & Scripting


Here's the place to discuss Kontakt, programming and scripting.




vi-control.net


----------



## G_Erland

TomaeusD said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kontakt: Sampling, Programming & Scripting
> 
> 
> Here's the place to discuss Kontakt, programming and scripting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net


Not too bad but was it there from v1?


----------



## TomaeusD

G_Erland said:


> Not too bad but was it there from v1?


I think just v2.

On a more serious note, I recently preordered Miroire and I'm hoping OT will pick things back up on SINE updates. It's not too late to turn it around and make it a good sampler, IMO.


----------



## MartinH.

G_Erland said:


> Id like to see the forum thread for this one unified player.


Just look at the thread for N, it's the closest we'll ever get to an open plattform industry standard player.




Loïc D said:


> So unless you’ve got a team dedicated to this task (I’m not sure automated tests can be run in our domain), you’re kind of stuck with one version.


Maybe they could run automated nulltests to catch unexpected regressions for things like legato transition or hanging notes.


----------



## AEF

OT is a disgrace. They have put out a dozen libraries since they falsely advertised the mic merge feature for BSS. 

It is likely illegal and they should be legally required fo offer refunds for something they blatantly lied about in advertising.


----------



## Casiquire

Should we just make a spinoff thread in the Sample Talk forum? This is getting kinda crazy


----------



## G_Erland

As was said, on a more serious note: I think that my ideal world includes competition and choice, even if not motivated by capital. And this thread seems to be going a certain way…I own Elektron gear, Ill say no more. Granted, instability is very frustrating. Granted, it might be improved. But I experience no instability…and I dig its basic operation so much that Im worried about too much future change. So there are these stories too. I think its utilitarianism, as I percieve it, is a great strength - and to me it adds a lot, though obviously other platforms can do the same thing. The comparison to PLAY I find premature to say the least…and look at them, could they be more different? As for it to be illegal to release a library, when working to fix an error afflicting one other…I find that hard to believe, but Im no high judge.


----------



## Pablocrespo

I think it’s ilegal not to refund if the product is not meeting the advertised promises, but sample libraries developers use some loophole to get around this. 

I wish they didn’t, I would probably give them more money.


----------



## jbuhler

Casiquire said:


> Should we just make a spinoff thread in the Sample Talk forum? This is getting kinda crazy


Yeah, I was on my phone and didn't realize this was the commercial forum when I posted.


----------



## Shad0wLandsUK

Babe said:


> I'm afraid that Sine may be on the same road as Play. A lot of promises, nothing done. Remember Play Pro? I have not purchased an EW product since they converted to Play.


Yes, they released OPUS. Which so far has been doing well, and also like SINE supports in app downloading...

But Kontakt is a far superior platform and now with VST3 finally, it seems it has further sealed its position for the future


----------



## szczaw

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> Yes, they released OPUS. Which so far has been doing well, and also like SINE supports in app downloading...
> 
> But Kontakt is a far superior platform and now with VST3 finally, it seems it has further sealed its position for the future


Kontakt has a superior number of libraries and that's about it. I find Opus to be much better software.


----------



## jbuhler

szczaw said:


> Kontakt has a superior number of libraries and that's about it. I find Opus to be much better software.


For non-Player libraries and even some Player libraries you can go under the hood and modify Kontakt libraries to your own specification. That’s not available in the proprietary players and it’s a big advantage to Kontakt. But in general for locked down libraries I prefer almost all the proprietary players to Kontakt.


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## szczaw

jbuhler said:


> For non-Player libraries and even some Player libraries you can go under the hood and modify Kontakt libraries to your own specification. That’s not available in the proprietary players and it’s a big advantage to Kontakt. But in general for locked down libraries I prefer almost all the proprietary players to Kontakt.


Kontakt started as a modular sampler and has tremendous advantage when it comes to manipulating samples. This is however not needed for somebody who just uses acoustic libraries. I'd take resizable ui over the ability to manipulate samples.


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## Igorianych

I cautiously hope that an update will be released soon that will solve all problems in both Sine and current libraries...


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## babylonwaves

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> Yes, they released OPUS. Which so far has been doing well, and also like SINE supports in app downloading...


I don't think so.


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## chrisav

Here's some more of that reassurance


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## JTB

Hmmm... doesn't appear to much developing going on in that shot.

But seriously, Sine is a downgrade from CAPSULE. Even after 2 years.

VSL release a player that blows our mind. OT releases a player that blows. Again, even after 2 years. Chop chop! boys and girls.


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## Evans

I know we all have opinions on libraries and player software, but this is the paid Commercial Announcements forum. Personal beef and comparison to competitors is probably best for Sample Talk, where this topic has been covered many times.


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## jbuhler

Evans said:


> I know we all have opinions on libraries and player software, but this is the paid Commercial Announcements forum. Personal beef and comparison to competitors is probably best for Sample Talk, where this topic has been covered many times.


In defense of those complaining on the commercial 
site, it is hard to know which forum you’re on when using the “what’s new” button on a mobile browser.


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## sostenuto

Wrestled with this Commercial vs Sample Talk since day one. Not thinking through all ramifications, but perhaps User discourse should not be open on Commercial Announcements. 
Creators /Providers post as usual, update as needed, but all other discussion is on Sample Talk. Nothing is perfect, but this would work imho, and still provide revenue to VI-C as intended. 

This truly needs a good solution.


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## Casiquire

sostenuto said:


> Wrestled with this Commercial vs Sample Talk since day one. Not thinking through all ramifications, but perhaps User discourse should not be open on Commercial Announcements.
> Creators /Providers post as usual, update as needed, but all other discussion is on Sample Talk. Nothing is perfect, but this would work imho, and still provide revenue to VI-C as intended.
> 
> This truly needs a good solution.


I think the way it stands is a great solution. A direct channel to ask questions and get information from the developer, and conversation keeps the advertising at the top of the page so products that generate more buzz are helpful for the developer, and anything outside of that spectrum goes to Sample Talk 😊 no solution is perfect but i think this is already a good one. We just occasionally have to check on each other.

I know I've definitely become mixed up between forums before, it happens. Not the end of the world!


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## jbuhler

Casiquire said:


> I think the way it stands is a great solution. A direct channel to ask questions and get information from the developer, and conversation keeps the advertising at the top of the page so products that generate more buzz are helpful for the developer, and anything outside of that spectrum goes to Sample Talk 😊 no solution is perfect but i think this is already a good one. We just occasionally have to check on each other.
> 
> I know I've definitely become mixed up between forums before, it happens. Not the end of the world!


I'm not sure it's possible, but an indicator on the mobile site that floats as you scroll through the page and reminds you that you are on a commercial forum would be helpful. Scrolling to look at the forum is much easier on the desktop site and, the forum designation is right below the text input for replying so the desktop doesn't lend itself to confusion in the same way.

Desktop:






Mobile:


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## Casiquire

jbuhler said:


> I'm not sure it's possible, but an indicator on the mobile site that floats as you scroll through the page and reminds you that you are on a commercial forum would be helpful. Scrolling to look at the forum is much easier on the desktop site and, the forum designation is right below the text input for replying so the desktop doesn't lend itself to confusion in the same way.
> 
> Desktop:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mobile:


Or a color coding/theming cue?

As for SINE, am i wrong or did someone post about OT beefing up their SINE team recently? I want to see those results. I think everyone even in this thread wants to see them succeed


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## jbuhler

Casiquire said:


> As for SINE, am i wrong or did someone post about OT beefing up their SINE team recently? I want to see those results. I think everyone even in this thread wants to see them succeed


I hope so! I worry some because the latest update has taken so long and that means the Sine team doesn't have enough resources or that they have been encountering some pesky issues that are proving difficult to get right. Both are concerning for future development. 

The best case scenario right now would be that they had to replace much of the Sine team for some reason, and getting the new team up and running has taken time.

Yes, and we all want Sine to be a success.


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## tim727

I'm strongly considering purchasing the Miroire choirs a la carte for 100 euros. I believe that there is a chance that I would eventually like to purchase the full Miroire library. If I've already bought the choirs for 100 euros and then want to upgrade to the complete library, will I still need to pay the full 400 euros for the complete library or would I get some kind of a discount since I already paid 100 for the choirs?


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## Germain B

tim727 said:


> If I've already bought the choirs for 100 euros and then want to upgrade to the complete library, will I still need to pay the full 400 euros for the complete library or would I get some kind of a discount since I already paid 100 for the choirs?


You will get a discount. The price adjusts to what you have already licensed.


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## Casiquire

Worth noting though, you'll end up paying more this way because it doesn't discount the FULL amount that you paid.


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## Zanshin

Casiquire said:


> Worth noting though, you'll end up paying more this way because it doesn't discount the FULL amount that you paid.


Yeah I want to say it's 70%? I am also not sure about the math during a sale but I would guess if the sale is 50% your discount is 50% less too.


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## jbuhler

Zanshin said:


> Yeah I want to say it's 70%? I am also not sure about the math during a sale but I would guess if the sale is 50% your discount is 50% less too.


“About 70%” is the number OT support quoted me when I asked about this a year or so ago.


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## Zanshin

jbuhler said:


> “About 70%” is the number OT support quoted me when I asked about this a year or so ago.


If it was 100% I would have bought a lot more haha. $40-80 here and there - knowing you'll have the full package at some point would be a great incentive. Perhaps I'm not the average OT customer though.


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## Casiquire

Zanshin said:


> Yeah I want to say it's 70%? I am also not sure about the math during a sale but I would guess if the sale is 50% your discount is 50% less too.


I don't understand why anyone would but singleinstruments during this sale though!! Bad idea


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## Casiquire

Zanshin said:


> If it was 100% I would have bought a lot more haha. $40-80 here and there - knowing you'll have the full package at some point would be a great incentive. Perhaps I'm not the average OT customer though.


I agree so much I've only bought one single instrument because i keep thinking I'll get the full libraries some day, but in the end maybe i just won't? They'd be smarter to set it closer to 90% so it doesn't feel like a waste to the customer. They'd probably get more sales that way


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## tim727

Ok so basically if I get the choirs first and then upgrade to the full library I'll probably "lose" about 30% of my original choir purchase price, so about 30 euros? Although it would have been nice if the loss were lower, it's not so bad I guess. For me I think this move makes sense because the choirs are the only thing I know for sure I want ... and I want them very much. The other stuff I could see myself wanting at some point but I could also see myself never using just as easily. For me it makes sense to potentially lose that 30 euros in the future to know that I'm definitely not losing 300 euros today.


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## jbuhler

Casiquire said:


> I don't understand why anyone would but singleinstruments during this sale though!! Bad idea


Because you have an EDU discount that gives you 40% off, and so the difference isn't so great and the layout of cash right now is considerably lower? I mean, I agree with you, but i can see a rationale.


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## Casiquire

jbuhler said:


> Because you have an EDU discount that gives you 40% off, and so the difference isn't so great and the layout of cash right now is considerably lower? I mean, I agree with you, but i can see a rationale.


Ah, i always forget about the education discount. Sometimes i feel like the only person who doesn't qualify


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## Evans

Casiquire said:


> Ah, i always forget about the education discount. Sometimes i feel like the only person who doesn't qualify


At the same time, for me at least, being older and not in school / not an educator (of which there are five in my near family) also has its benefits.


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## holywilly

Dear @OrchestralTools,

Please make SINE's UI color user adjustable, it's just way too dark to see what's going on here.


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## novaburst

I am digging the black, but I guess why not customizing your own true colours


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## holywilly

Black is good, but hard to see when loading Percussions, dark grey with black aren’t good combos.


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## novaburst

Also I don't think optional colours are hard to introduce


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