# String sections and chord interval question



## MusiquedeReve (Feb 16, 2021)

Hi everyone - I started Mike Baggstrom's string arrangement course on Udemy today (I am a newbie when it comes to using orchestral composing) and I had a question about which string sections handle which intervals in a chord

If I understood correctly, Mike stated as follows:

Violins 1: use for the 5th of the chord
Violins 2: use for the root of the chord
Violas: use for the 3rd of the chord

So, here is some context:

I wrote a chord progression using a string ensemble patch I found among Logic's software instruments
I then attempted to separate out, using Spitfire Audio BBC Symphony, the different sections (violins 1, violins 2, viola, cello and bass)

I have the cello and bass playing the root notes in octaves
BUT
when I use the above way of arranging the intervals of the chords, I feel as if I am losing something in the translation...

So, is using violins 2 for the root; violins 1 for the 5th; and violas for the 3rd a hard and fast rule or, should the default always be "if it sounds good, it is good"?

Bonus question:

If I am using the second inversion of a chord, would the above "rules" apply for the 1st, 3rd and 5th or would those change as well?

Thank you for any advice you can give me.


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## twincities (Feb 16, 2021)

ChromeCrescendo said:


> "if it sounds good, it is good"


until you're writing for purely a paycheck, and the person signing it has a problem with it, this is the only rule you _need._


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## MusiquedeReve (Feb 16, 2021)

twincities said:


> until you're writing for purely a paycheck, and the person signing it has a problem with it, this is the only rule you _need._


Yeah - I always knew that was the ultimate rule but I'm trying to learn the traditional rules as well
(so far, the vocalist I am working with loves it)


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## Josha (Feb 16, 2021)

I'm no expert in orchestration, but I don't get this at all. If you are trying to learn the traditional rules then voice leading IS very important (e.g. avoiding parallel fifths or octaves, resolving 4-3, 7-1). There's no way to do that if the instruments are stuck in one voice of the chord, right.


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## Sebastián collao (Feb 16, 2021)

Sorry for the obvious answer, but if you want to write in style you should first study the style, in general the chord voices should be distributed depending on the voicing, and this will depend on different factors. If the third chord is in the soprano, then whoever will make that voice will be the first violins do not violas them. Sometimes in harmony can be duplicated, triple I have even omitted some notes from the chord and to not "sound bad" it is good to know precisely what is being done, after that it is necessary to know how to assign each note to instruments of the orchestra and only in the string section there are already many options to achieve it well or not achieve it.


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## MusiquedeReve (Feb 16, 2021)

Josha said:


> I'm no expert in orchestration, but I don't get this at all. If you are trying to learn the traditional rules then voice leading IS very important (e.g. avoiding parallel fifths or octaves, resolving 4-3, 7-1). There's no way to do that if the instruments are stuck in one voice of the chord, right.





Sebastián collao said:


> Sorry for the obvious answer, but if you want to write in style you should first study the style, in general the chord voices should be distributed depending on the voicing, and this will depend on different factors. If the third chord is in the soprano, then whoever will make that voice will be the first violins do not violas them. Sometimes in harmony can be duplicated, triple I have even omitted some notes from the chord and to not "sound bad" it is good to know precisely what is being done, after that it is necessary to know how to assign each note to instruments of the orchestra and only in the string section there are already many options to achieve it well or not achieve it.


Thank you - I probably misunderstand what Mike was saying 

I thought that it was a "rule" to arrange the strings that way and when I started doing it, it did not sound as good as when I used the synthesized string ensemble

I will watch Mike's video again and also experiment with different ways of laying out the notes of each chord between the sections


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## Martin Bayless (Feb 17, 2021)

Forget which intervals apply to instruments and focus on the individual lines they're playing in four parts: Vln I = soprano, Vln II = alto, Vla = tenor, Vlc = bass. The Double Bass as the name implies merely "doubles" the bass line (sounding an octave below) for foundation until you get into more modern or advanced writing. Basic string writing mimics the string quartet, again until you get into more involved things later.


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## muk (Feb 17, 2021)

ChromeCrescendo said:


> If I understood correctly, Mike stated as follows:
> 
> Violins 1: use for the 5th of the chord
> Violins 2: use for the root of the chord
> Violas: use for the 3rd of the chord



There must be some misunderstanding here. By no way can nor should this always be the case. Try to immerse yourself in the topic of voice leading, and this will become clear. It is a very important topic that gives you the tools to write interesting individual parts. Also, it is not difficult nor time consuming to learn (but then takes a lifetime to practice).


I wrote a little tutorial a while back that hopefully should get you started: 






Part writing or the importance of not being lazy – complete with fancy pictures and sound


Have you ever heard of some arcane device called ‘part writing’? Ever wondered if it could help you improve your writing? If the answer to the second question is no then congratulations. You can save yourself the hassle of reading through this and just have a quick glance at the fancy pictures...




vi-control.net


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## MusiquedeReve (Feb 17, 2021)

Martin Bayless said:


> Forget which intervals apply to instruments and focus on the individual lines they're playing in four parts: Vln I = soprano, Vln II = alto, Vla = tenor, Vlc = bass. The Double Bass as the name implies merely "doubles" the bass line (sounding an octave below) for foundation until you get into more modern or advanced writing. Basic string writing mimics the string quartet, again until you get into more involved things later.


Thank you Martin - that made a lot of sense - cleared things up a bit for me



muk said:


> There must be some misunderstanding here. By no way can nor should this always be the case. Try to immerse yourself in the topic of voice leading, and this will become clear. It is a very important topic that gives you the tools to write interesting individual parts. Also, it is not difficult nor time consuming to learn (but then takes a lifetime to practice).
> 
> 
> I wrote a little tutorial a while back that hopefully should get you started:
> ...


Muk - thank you - I will definitely check out the tutorial this evening


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## mopsiflopsi (Feb 17, 2021)

Here’s my learned wisdom as a fellow novice: I find a lot of online tutorials go for a fast and easy rule on this topic to not overwhelm people just starting out. Truth is there are so many ways to voice a chord depending on the style you are going for. Most courses stick to SATB or the instructor’s favorite variation to get you up and running quickly. But you are the only one who knows what your song is about and that context is really the ultimate factor to how you should voice your chords. 
Which is also why you will often hear people telling you to study a score that has the same or similar style as what you are going for. Voice leading and part writing are worth learning for sure, but if you want to write something like Williams’ rebel fanfare for example, you will have to look into that to learn what planing triads are and that will open up new possibilities for you.


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## mopsiflopsi (Feb 17, 2021)

Also if you haven’t done this already, learn about the overtone or harmonic series. It will clarify a lot about why certain voicings sound the way they do and how you can either avoid or take advantage of certain effects of overtones.


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## Willowtree (Feb 17, 2021)

ChromeCrescendo said:


> Hi everyone - I started Mike Baggstrom's string arrangement course on Udemy today (I am a newbie when it comes to using orchestral composing) and I had a question about which string sections handle which intervals in a chord
> 
> If I understood correctly, Mike stated as follows:
> 
> ...


Almost all of this is absolutely terrible information. I'd abandon that course and ask for a refund if this is what he's teaching you.


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## JohnG (Feb 17, 2021)

It's not a criminally bad starting point -- v1 on the fifth, v2 on root, vla on 3d, vcl and CB on root again -- but if you carry on like that you are going to have non-stop parallel 5ths and octaves, which sounds weak. If you're writing in a folk style, parallel 5ths and octaves sound pretty good, but not so much in general.

Tchaikovsky is probably the best kind-of-modern string arranger I can think of other than maybe John Williams (the film composer) or Ravel. Or maybe Debussy. And some of the Russians of course.

There is no rule like that which is going to "just work." As others have mentioned, voice leading is king with strings. Sometimes it sounds cool to bunch them close together, often it sounds good to spread them way out.

If you want specific examples, here are a few:

1. Debussy -- first movement of "LA Mer" (complicated, and not just strings, but still illustrates the possibilities of the string section)

2. Copland -- "Appalachian Spring" -- the one I have is full orchestra but there are quite a few arrangements of this popular piece.

3. John Adams (most famous as an opera composer) -- "Dr. Atomic Symphony" a wild one!

4. For something relatively clear to analyze, Mozart -- Divertimento in D 

5. John Williams -- "Angela's Ashes" suite (you can buy the score)

6. Grieg -- Holberg Suite


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## JohnG (Feb 17, 2021)

I see a barrage of posts -- don't feel discouraged, and use your natural musicality. Rules, meh.

The main thing in the end is to sing each part, individually, so that it makes a nice tune. If you write a melody, then a bass line, you can do worse than to just sing along for the violin 2 and viola parts, and put that in. If a spot sounds "off," check for parallel 5ths and octaves. They can sound just fine in some pieces but they can also be weak points.

Also, the cello and bass can have different lines, as you likely know, but if you're just starting out four voices is probably plenty.

*Alternative*

If your goal is media music, you might have a look at Thinkspaceeducation dot-com. They have frequent specials and "try it" classes. They have some kind of discounts on right now.

Again, don't let all this get you down. Music with no rules whatsoever has been delighting people since it was two sticks on a log, so there is no need to feel you MUST follow rules.

Enjoy yourself first!


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## Willowtree (Feb 17, 2021)

muk said:


> There must be some misunderstanding here. By no way can nor should this always be the case. Try to immerse yourself in the topic of voice leading, and this will become clear. It is a very important topic that gives you the tools to write interesting individual parts. Also, it is not difficult nor time consuming to learn (but then takes a lifetime to practice).
> 
> 
> I wrote a little tutorial a while back that hopefully should get you started:
> ...


Excellent post as always muk. I'm not sober enough to write something so lengthy right now... But yes voice leading will get you where you want to go @ChromeCrescendo 

There's no easy rule for voicing for strings (eg 5ths go here, 3rds go here) and I don't think that's a good starting point either. It'll make you pick up very bad habits you will have a hard time unlearning.

Learn voice leading and the rest will fall into place. In terms of voicing, anyhow.

The advice on learning the overtone series is sound as well.

Abandon the idea of rules. There's what works and what doesn't.

"If it sounds good it's good" is also terrible advice. Ignore that. The point of learning orchestration isn't to learn rules. It's to learn how to make things sound good in the first place.


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## MusiquedeReve (Feb 17, 2021)

mopsiflopsi said:


> Here’s my learned wisdom as a fellow novice: I find a lot of online tutorials go for a fast and easy rule on this topic to not overwhelm people just starting out. Truth is there are so many ways to voice a chord depending on the style you are going for. Most courses stick to SATB or the instructor’s favorite variation to get you up and running quickly. But you are the only one who knows what your song is about and that context is really the ultimate factor to how you should voice your chords.
> Which is also why you will often hear people telling you to study a score that has the same or similar style as what you are going for. Voice leading and part writing are worth learning for sure, but if you want to write something like Williams’ rebel fanfare for example, you will have to look into that to learn what planing triads are and that will open up new possibilities for you.


Thank you - I am not writing a score, I am trying to add "real" strings to a pop song - the synth string ensemble I had on the song sounded "ok" but the realism of the Spitfire samples is light years ahead in sound quality and I noticed a sonic difference even with my bare bones approach upon my first attempt (before watching Mike's video) - I am also just learning theory (hey, I was in a rock band playing guitar for years so learning theory and attempting to put it into practice is new to me lol)



Willowtree said:


> Almost all of this is absolutely terrible information. I'd abandon that course and ask for a refund if this is what he's teaching you.


WOW - that escalated quickly - I am going to watch the video again this evening and see where I perhaps misunderstood something



JohnG said:


> It's not a criminally bad starting point -- v1 on the fifth, v2 on root, vla on 3d, vcl and CB on root again -- but if you carry on like that you are going to have non-stop parallel 5ths and octaves, which sounds weak. If you're writing in a folk style, parallel 5ths and octaves sound pretty good, but not so much in general.
> 
> Tchaikovsky is probably the best kind-of-modern string arranger I can think of other than maybe John Williams (the film composer) or Ravel. Or maybe Debussy. And some of the Russians of course.
> 
> ...



Thank you for the advice - I love Ravel and who doesn't love John Williams (cue the Drama Zone split off)



JohnG said:


> I see a barrage of posts -- don't feel discouraged, and use your natural musicality. Rules, meh.
> 
> The main thing in the end is to sing each part, individually, so that it makes a nice tune. If you write a melody, then a bass line, you can do worse than to just sing along for the violin 2 and viola parts, and put that in. If a spot sounds "off," check for parallel 5ths and octaves. They can sound just fine in some pieces but they can also be weak points.
> 
> ...


No discouragement here - just confusion - that is why I posted this thread as I know everyone on here has amazing knowledge that I was hoping they would share with me (and they have)

I am currently taking Guy Michelmore's theory course and, once I finish that, will begin his "How to Write Music" course, wherein I believe he discusses harmony -- I noticed he also has a dedicated harmony course that is also on my radar



Willowtree said:


> Excellent post as always muk. I'm not sober enough to write something so lengthy right now... But yes voice leading will get you where you want to go @ChromeCrescendo
> 
> There's no easy rule for voicing for strings (eg 5ths go here, 3rds go here) and I don't think that's a good starting point either. It'll make you pick up very bad habits you will have a hard time unlearning.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I am learning as I go - attempting to put any new knowledge I learn into practice - it will take me a while but I am dedicated and love making music


youngpokie said:


> This could be a basic triad in a closed voicing with Violins II and Violas crossing voices. A perfectly legitimate technique, used by many from Tchaikovsky to the modernists. Used especially frequently in woodwinds (for example, clarinet crossing with oboe, or bassoon crossing with clarinet). Depending on how high the viola's voice is placed in its register, it could sound quite expressive and dramatic.
> 
> It could also be an inverted chord in a wide voicing, spanning several octaves. Again, perfectly legitimate technique in the appropriate context (especially for full orchestra).
> 
> Still, these techniques are not typically taught in introductory courses. And you don't recall the voicings given for cell and bass. So - my hunch is you likely misunderstood the instructor. Why not just go back and simply check it?


I think I stated the voicing for cello and bass were the root of the chord

I am definitely going to watch the video again and see where I went wrong


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## mopsiflopsi (Feb 17, 2021)

Here's a free resource, btw. It has a section on voice leading triads too: http://musictheory.pugetsound.edu/mt21c/MusicTheory.html

My last advice on this is to not limit yourself to learning from a single source (which is really my advice for learning anything in the internet age). One course will be great at teaching one point but not another, some other course will cover that but leave something else out. I find it takes me cross referencing multiple sources before something really clicks into place. So many things to learn and so many people to learn them from!


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## ed buller (Feb 17, 2021)

ChromeCrescendo said:


> Hi everyone - I started Mike Baggstrom's string arrangement course on Udemy today (I am a newbie when it comes to using orchestral composing) and I had a question about which string sections handle which intervals in a chord
> 
> If I understood correctly, Mike stated as follows:
> 
> ...


One thing I really valued from The Scott Smalley course was the Z clef. I don't want to steal his idea and stop you buying the course (though it is now, in the grand scheme of things, insanely expensive !!!) but I'd say this. Whenever you write music for many instruments, when you write chords, try and make sure all the instruments play their assigned notes in the same basic tessitura . So think ahead to how the individual components will sound. If the Violins are playing high up on the E string DON'T have the Violas play low on the G string. Try and keep the notes of the chords fairly close together in their respective ranges. You want the same SOUND out of each just different PITCHES. Otherwise it won't blend properly . And if there is a note that is vital to the chord ( a 6th or 7th ) then you won't want that getting lost. 

best

ed


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## Willowtree (Feb 17, 2021)

ChromeCrescendo said:


> WOW - that escalated quickly - I am going to watch the video again this evening and see where I perhaps misunderstood something


Haha hopefully it's a misunderstanding. If not, you're getting scammed.


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## ed buller (Feb 17, 2021)

This might be useful, Apologies if posting this breaks any rules !

https://redbanned.com/threads/z-clef.132/
best

ed


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## MusiquedeReve (Feb 17, 2021)

ed buller said:


> This might be useful, Apologies if posting this breaks any rules !
> 
> https://redbanned.com/threads/z-clef.132/
> best
> ...


Lightbulb moment - thank you

So, basically, if I take all the notes in a chord and put them on one clef (the "Z clef"), regardless of their octave, the closer they are together on the "Z clef", the sounds will blend together better


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## Willowtree (Feb 17, 2021)

ChromeCrescendo said:


> Lightbulb moment - thank you
> 
> So, basically, if I take all the notes in a chord and put them on one clef (the "Z clef"), regardless of their octave, the closer they are together on the "Z clef", the sounds will blend together better


This to me sounds incredibly silly and ridiculous, no offence intended.

This isn't going to help with timbre or blend, particularly not when writing for full sections.

The timbre doesn't consistently change across the string section and instruments, and if you're still at this stage of learning, it's way too early to learn about the individual characters of each particular string on those instruments.

You're making it more complicated for yourself than it has to be.

Read up on voice leading. Don't go overboard. If you feel thus lost, consider hiring a teacher.

But since you say this is for a pop context... No need to go overboard. 

If you want some directions feel free to DM me. I think this thread is full of things that will just lead you astray.


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## ed buller (Feb 17, 2021)

ChromeCrescendo said:


> Lightbulb moment - thank you
> 
> So, basically, if I take all the notes in a chord and put them on one clef (the "Z clef"), regardless of their octave, the closer they are together on the "Z clef", the sounds will blend together better


The top and bottom Note shouldn't be further apart than a 6th on the Zed clef.

best

e


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## MusiquedeReve (Feb 17, 2021)

Willowtree said:


> This to me sounds incredibly silly and ridiculous, no offence intended.
> 
> This isn't going to help with timbre or blend, particularly not when writing for full sections.
> 
> ...


Thank you - I appreciate the offer


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## youngpokie (Feb 17, 2021)

I would actually appreciate it if you could write a quick update when you have a chance to check back with that course. 

Because I'm still not exactly clear what is wrong with the chord voicing as you laid it out. It looks perfectly fine to me. Here are two examples of that voicing in C major. 

Violins I are on the 5th scale degree, Violins II on the root, Violas (shown here in treble clef for convenience) are on the 3rd, and the cellos/basses are in octave doubling of the root. The second example shows a voice crossing between Violins II and Violas, each retaining the same scale degrees and with tighter voicing of the chord overall. 







I agree with everyone's comments about voice leading (and wrote about it in a post the other day), but I really don't see how it applies in your case - for all we know this might be an opening chord with nothing _leading_ to it at all!!!

Anyway, hope you can update. Inquiring minds want to know!!


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## ed buller (Feb 17, 2021)

Here are some B minor Chords and their spread over the strings:






Best
ed


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## youngpokie (Feb 17, 2021)

ed buller said:


> Here are some B minor Chords and their spread over the strings:



Bingo


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## MusiquedeReve (Feb 17, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> I would actually appreciate it if you could write a quick update when you have a chance to check back with that course.
> 
> Because I'm still not exactly clear what is wrong with the chord voicing as you laid it out. It looks perfectly fine to me. Here are two examples of that voicing in C major.
> 
> ...


The C Major was an example - in actuality, the song leads off with D Major then goes into a Dsus4 and D57 -- when I had recorded it with just the synth string ensemble, the violins carried the melody but when I switched to the 1st, 3rd, 5th as laid out, it sounded different


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## MusiquedeReve (Feb 17, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> Many approaches there, depending...
> 
> Are you adding mainly just pads? Sounds like it.


Yes, there is a melody that I want violins 1 to play

It's interesting that, with the chords I am using, both violins 2 and violas are staying on one note (respectively) the entire progression

I also have the cello and bass playing spicatto in octaves (although, they too, are merely playing one note, albeit in a rhythmic pattern)


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## Saxer (Feb 17, 2021)

I think mainly we need to distinguish between a lesson and a rule.

If you are in a lesson to learn string writing and the task of the day is to make root/root/third/root/fifth voicings for strings it doesn't mean is has to be that way all the time. But for this special task there's one right solution (or a few when using different octaves). Learn it and go on.


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## MusiquedeReve (Feb 17, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> I would actually appreciate it if you could write a quick update when you have a chance to check back with that course.





Saxer said:


> I think mainly we need to distinguish between a lesson and a rule.
> 
> If you are in a lesson to learn string writing and the task of the day is to make root/root/third/root/fifth voicings for strings it doesn't mean is has to be that way all the time. But for this special task there's one right solution (or a few when using different octaves). Learn it and go on.


OK - here is the update:

I watched the tutorial again and, here is where I believe my confusion originated...

The video, while part of the arranging strings course, was discussing taking a piano chord progression and voicing it for strings

As such, I believe the advice therein was only applicable to converting piano chords

That being said, although I was attempting to voice the string sections from a synth string ensemble chord progression, it could have easily been a piano chord progression (I just happened to choose a synth string ensemble from Logic's range of software instruments)


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## mopsiflopsi (Feb 17, 2021)

ChromeCrescendo said:


> As such, I believe the advice therein was only applicable to converting piano chords


Well, no matter what your original voicing is, ultimately the destination instrument group is strings. Obviously a chord voiced for piano or woodwinds or brass or strings will sound different from each other; a piano is a single instrument with little timbral variation across registers compared to orchestral sections containing instruments with varying ranges, strengths and weaknesses, timbres, etc. 

From your original post:
"when I use the above way of arranging the intervals of the chords, I feel as if I am losing something in the translation..."

So yeah, you should naturally expect the piano chord to sound different from the others. I don't think that necessarily means you are doing something wrong. The difference you're hearing might just be the instruments behaving as they should.


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## mopsiflopsi (Feb 17, 2021)

And synth strings will naturally sound different than sampled strings.


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## MusiquedeReve (Feb 17, 2021)

mopsiflopsi said:


> Well, no matter what your original voicing is, ultimately the destination instrument group is strings. Obviously a chord voiced for piano or woodwinds or brass or strings will sound different from each other; a piano is a single instrument with little timbral variation across registers compared to orchestral sections containing instruments with varying ranges, strengths and weaknesses, timbres, etc.
> 
> From your original post:
> "when I use the above way of arranging the intervals of the chords, I feel as if I am losing something in the translation..."
> ...





mopsiflopsi said:


> And synth strings will naturally sound different than sampled strings.


I reworked the sections as stated here


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 17, 2021)

The thing about strings is that you can write just about anything and it sounds good. Same with piano.

Not true with brass and woodwinds.


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## visiblenoise (Feb 17, 2021)

The closest thing I've found to a general "rule" on this topic is that the higher up you go, the closer together (interval-wise) you can afford to put your chord tones (unless you're purposely doing it for effect). That, alongside some voice leading, will always net a decent result. Anything past that is up to taste and context.

But the course probably just needs to give you some starting points, so... play along.


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## ProfoundSilence (Feb 17, 2021)

Yeah a lot of question marks in this thread. Hard to say it's worth learning something the wrong way first- but saxer is on point, this sounds like a lesson not a rule. 

take literally everything with a grain of salt, and assume if there's a rule, then breaking it is likely use as useful as the rule, it's about intent.(hence knowing why is important)


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## Willowtree (Feb 17, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> Yeah a lot of question marks in this thread. Hard to say it's worth learning something the wrong way first- but saxer is on point, this sounds like a lesson not a rule.
> 
> take literally everything with a grain of salt, and assume if there's a rule, then breaking it is likely use as useful as the rule, it's about intent.(hence knowing why is important)


I think it's worth clarifying the reason what the OP said they were taught sounds terrible isn't because it's a terrible voicing per se, but because it's a shortcut type thing. "Use this simple method to get good string sound, pay me more money!"

I'm not saying this is what the course said, for all we know the OP might have completely misunderstood the course. But if it did say what the OP suggested in their original post, it's (as someone who's given private lessons in orchestration) what I'd call "music theory quackery".


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## ProfoundSilence (Feb 17, 2021)

Willowtree said:


> I think it's worth clarifying the reason what the OP said they were taught sounds terrible isn't because it's a terrible voicing per se, but because it's a shortcut type thing. "Use this simple method to get good string sound, pay me more money!"
> 
> I'm not saying this is what the course said, for all we know the OP might have completely misunderstood the course. But if it did say what the OP suggested in their original post, it's (as someone who's given private lessons in orchestration) what I'd call "music theory quackery".


yeah, just in general though - anytime there's a rule, the best thing to do is understand why... 

My favorite rule I learned to break was parallel 4ths/5ths/octaves.... we're taught not to in standard SATB writing, but not why... understanding that the brain will hear those parallel intervals as one line means you can make the decision to keep the harmony clearly seperate from the melody, or to make it a little more ambigious. Likewise, then you can use that knowledge to re-enforce a melody with planing. 

i.e. dance of the reeds by tchaikovsky - perfectly explained by doing the exact opposite of common voice leading practices!


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## Willowtree (Feb 18, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> yeah, just in general though - anytime there's a rule, the best thing to do is understand why...
> 
> My favorite rule I learned to break was parallel 4ths/5ths/octaves.... we're taught not to in standard SATB writing, but not why... understanding that the brain will hear those parallel intervals as one line means you can make the decision to keep the harmony clearly seperate from the melody, or to make it a little more ambigious. Likewise, then you can use that knowledge to re-enforce a melody with planing.
> 
> i.e. dance of the reeds by tchaikovsky - perfectly explained by doing the exact opposite of common voice leading practices!


Completely agree with that as a general statement. Though, I will say, a good teacher should teach _why_ and if they don't, it's a sign they don't understand what they're teaching.

Sometimes teaching the _why_ isn't possible of course. Teaching why you should avoid parallel 5ths is good. As long as the _why_ doesn't try to answer a "chicken or the egg" type of question, it's as valuable and important to teach as the respective guideline / rule / tradition / instruction etc.


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## ProfoundSilence (Feb 18, 2021)

Willowtree said:


> Completely agree with that as a general statement. Though, I will say, a good teacher should teach _why_ and if they don't, it's a sign they don't understand what they're teaching.
> 
> Sometimes teaching the _why_ isn't possible of course. Teaching why you should avoid parallel 5ths is good. As long as the _why_ doesn't try to answer a "chicken or the egg" type of question, it's as valuable and important to teach as the respective guideline / rule / tradition / instruction etc.


The irony is that it took a while to un-learn everything I half learned or learned wrong from basic theory had caused me to dislike having watered down answers in the first place, but then I became interested in orchestration and suddenly baby bites is something I miss!


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