# The best film music is it, when noone recognize it as film musik?! Yes, no?



## germancomponist (Jul 1, 2011)

A good friend of mine (a well known fulltime TV-composer) says: "The best film music is it, when noone recognize it as film musik?! He means: "When the people like the film very much and do not recognize my work, then I did a good job."

What do you think about his opinion?


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## Marius Masalar (Jul 1, 2011)

I think if that were to be slightly rephrased, I would be more inclined to agree with it.

Something like: "When the music significantly impacts the experience of the film in a positive way without drawing unnecessary attention to itself — i.e. when it emphasizes the unity of music and film rather than distracting from it — and when those who have an ear for it can recognize that quality even outside the context of the film, then I did a good job."

Long-winded sentence but I think it's an interesting question. Curious to see more people's thoughts!


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## JohnG (Jul 1, 2011)

Actually, I disagree with the entire concept. I like movies whose scores -- at least some of the time -- call a lot of attention to themselves. Ranging from Planet of the Apes to The King's Speech to Pirates, score is, and often should be, invasive / assertive; whatever expression one prefers.

The current vogue of putting music almost everywhere I think is a huge mistake because then the music really does have to disappear. Because it is unnecessary.

I guess if you limit the idea to "unnecessary" attention, that's ok. But it conjures up a demure score whose presence is barely noticed. I hate writing those kinds of things!


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## rpaillot (Jul 1, 2011)

germancomponist @ Fri Jul 01 said:


> A good friend of mine (a well known fulltime TV-composer) says: "The best film music is it, when noone recognize it as film musik?! He means: "When the people like the film very much and do not recognize my work, then I did a good job."
> 
> What do you think about his opinion?



I absolutely hate it when a film composer basically says , if I understand right, "a good film music is a music you dont notice when you see the movie"... 
wtf ?! We are composing music, it must be noticed !! Ok it must not disturb the movie but when I watch E.T, thin red line, star wars, etc... I notice the music a LOT and it's perfectly fine for me and many people

If Williams thought like this composer, he would never had composed so many masterpieces...

Unfortunately, it seems there's a trend of film composers nowadays who just think the music needs to be totally in the background and act more like sound effects....


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## RiffWraith (Jul 1, 2011)

rpaillot @ Sat Jul 02 said:


> Unfortunately, it seems there's a trend of film composers nowadays who just think the music needs to be totally in the background and act more like sound effects....



Err, make that_ a trend of directors nowadays who just think .... _After all, it's not the composer who decides, "I am going to put music here and here, but not here."

I think it was JW (and I am sure a few others) who said that the way you determine whether or not a film score is good, is a) does the music help the film, and b) does the music stand on it's own. I can't disagree there.

Cheers.


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## mverta (Jul 1, 2011)

There's a reason the composer's credit is right up at the top of the film with the stars and the director's: The music is a principal player in the show.

A good director knows that music can be a character in its own right; it can carry a scene all by itself; it can provide drama on its own. It is also capable of being a subtle, even invisible manipulator of emotion in the background, without the audience even being aware consciously of it.

Just as good orchestration keeps colors fresh to avoid monotony, a good film typically uses music in many contexts. And a good composer can write music for every context within the film. In all cases, music which has internal musicality is always more dramatically effective than "cue-based" scores, because we are intrinsically aware of musical structure - from the simplest, pop-music form, to complex long-form symphonic structure. Music is a language, and when it speaks in complete sentences, as part of well-formed paragraphs, which make up interesting and changing chapters, which together weave an ever-developing and interesting story, then it is most effective, and paired perfectly with what one hopes is an equally well-structured screenplay.

Spielberg and Williams know when it's time for music to be the focus, right up front, and get the adrenaline flowing, or the heart swelling, and both know when it should be doing its job subtly. But at the end of the day, you can put on a John Williams score and listen to it on its own, and hear the entire story unfolding, "visually." This inherent storytelling quality of the music is the mark of a master, the principle quality in the most enduring, respected, and culturally-adopted scores. And it cannot be gotten easily. Such a mark of mastery requires nothing less than expert skill and craftsmanship, and has never been attained by anyone without it. 

_Mike


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## David Story (Jul 1, 2011)

JohnG @ Fri Jul 01 said:


> I like movies whose scores -- at least some of the time -- call a lot of attention to themselves. Ranging from Planet of the Apes to The King's Speech to Pirates, score is, and often should be, invasive / assertive;



Well said John!

If no one notices your work, you aren't doing a great job. 
I think Gunter's friend is describing a competent score, not the best.

Music is part of the show, we have to take the lead at times.


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## Marius Masalar (Jul 1, 2011)

JohnG @ Fri Jul 01 said:


> Actually, I disagree with the entire concept. I like movies whose scores -- at least some of the time -- call a lot of attention to themselves. Ranging from Planet of the Apes to The King's Speech to Pirates, score is, and often should be, invasive / assertive; whatever expression one prefers.
> 
> The current vogue of putting music almost everywhere I think is a huge mistake because then the music really does have to disappear. Because it is unnecessary.
> 
> *I guess if you limit the idea to "unnecessary" attention, that's ok. But it conjures up a demure score whose presence is barely noticed. I hate writing those kinds of things!*


This is what I meant, John, sorry for being unclear. I'm the last person to say that wallpaper scores are the way to go, I just mean that I consider the thing a success when it's not distracting. I think that's the distinction...noticeable, prominent, etc. is great, but _distracting_ is not. I think David's also got a point that sometimes we SHOULD take the lead — so long as it's all intentional and making a positive contribution, I think that's shiny.


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## JohnG (Jul 1, 2011)

All very fair, Marius. I think we are on the same wavelength.


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## Kejero (Jul 2, 2011)

I'd say it entirely depends on the project.

About the concept of writing "noticable" music: that also heavily depends on your audience. We as composers tend to notice scores, where as in my experience, almost everybody who's not professionally or otherwise engaged in any aspect of film music making, will hardly be able to tell anything about a score after watching a movie. I'd even argue that many people only recognize an iconic score like Star Wars', because that theme has been played and used outside of the movies themselves, and not because they've watched the movie (even if they have actually watched it).


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## germancomponist (Jul 2, 2011)

Kejero @ Sat Jul 02 said:


> I... that also heavily depends on your audience. We as composers tend to notice scores, where as in my experience, almost everybody who's not professionally or otherwise engaged in any aspect of film music making, will hardly be able to tell anything about a score after watching a movie. I'd even argue that many people only recognize an iconic score like Star Wars', because that theme has been played and used outside of the movies themselves, and not because they've watched the movie (even if they have actually watched it).



The reason why we get so different ratings:

We composer would agree with this: http://www.craveonline.com/film/articles/129694-the-30-most-unforgettable-film-scores-ever

Everybody who's not professionally or otherwise engaged in any aspect of film music making will more agree with this: http://www.filmsite.org/100soundtracks.html



> Spielberg and Williams know when it's time for music to be the focus, right up front, and get the adrenaline flowing, or the heart swelling, and both know when it should be doing its job subtly.



+1 How true!


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## germancomponist (Jul 2, 2011)

One thing btw: My friend writes excellent scores. His statement means not that a good film needs not a good score, but the most spectators do not notice the great influence of film music.


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## SergeD (Jul 2, 2011)

Your friend has a very good point. 

When the music significantly enhance what the director put on the screen then the score is well done no matter who did it. 

E.T would has been an average film without the great music raising emotions on an upper level . E.T movie and music are the story and nobody cares who directed the movie, done the script and the score once he gets trapped in the story.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 2, 2011)

It totally depends on the film. There are films where you should notice it and films where you should not.


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## David Story (Jul 2, 2011)

germancomponist @ Sat Jul 02 said:


> The reason why we get so different ratings:
> 
> We composer would agree with this: http://www.craveonline.com/film/articles/129694-the-30-most-unforgettable-film-scores-ever
> 
> ...



Both lists have Psycho, Star Wars, Bond, many in common. You choose a list of underscore and a list of songs plus underscore. Pop songs must be more popular than instrumental music. 

That doesn't mean Star Wars is under-rated. 5 year old children can and do sing the themes today. To use Mike V's phrase, its been culturally-adopted. As much as the Beatles.

When music takes the lead, people notice. Yet you can be successful with music that stays unnoticeable. 

Hitchcock, Spielberg, Lucas, Scott, Nolan, Allen, Cameron, Bergman so many directors ask music to take the lead, and the audience is aware of it. Fans of film talk about the music and buy the album.

Those are my models, not brilliantly understated mood music that helps the film but never stands out. I do respect composers who do that work, but it's not really me. And I believe the film music concerts around the world further show that the audience is aware and cares. Even after the film ends, the music lives on.

You can make the case that the public prefers films where they notice the music.


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## choc0thrax (Jul 2, 2011)

Gunther,

Your friend sounds like he's just repeating what he's read in books and interviews. Next time you see him check his back or hairline for a seam. Once you locate the seam there should be a tab where you can peel back the polyurethane bioskin to check which model of robot he is.

P.S. The jig will be up and he will try to kill you at this point. The key to survival is a low center of gravity and shoving his latest bank statements into his port bays(the current global economy depresses robots too and he will short out).


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 2, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jul 02 said:


> It totally depends on the film. There are films where you should notice it and films where you should not.



Yep, and also some scenes are more incidental music while others it's time for the music to shine.


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## jlb (Jul 2, 2011)

JohnG @ Sat Jul 02 said:


> Actually, I disagree with the entire concept. I like movies whose scores -- at least some of the time -- call a lot of attention to themselves. Ranging from Planet of the Apes to The King's Speech to Pirates, score is, and often should be, invasive / assertive; whatever expression one prefers.
> 
> The current vogue of putting music almost everywhere I think is a huge mistake because then the music really does have to disappear. Because it is unnecessary.
> 
> I guess if you limit the idea to "unnecessary" attention, that's ok. But it conjures up a demure score whose presence is barely noticed. I hate writing those kinds of things!



Agree with this 100%, a lot of what I hear is unnecessary and therefore has to disappear, absolutely right John

jlb


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## David Story (Jul 2, 2011)

Music is necessary to film.
Bernard Herrmann

"I've always felt that Johnny was my musical rewrite artist. He'd come in, see my movie, and rewrite the whole damn thing musically and make it much better than I did."
Steven Spielberg


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## germancomponist (Jul 3, 2011)

Guy Bacos @ Sat Jul 02 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jul 02 said:
> 
> 
> > It totally depends on the film. There are films where you should notice it and films where you should not.
> ...



No doubt about this.. o/~ 

But I am also sure that the most people who are not composers do not know that at a certain moment it is the music, which so strongly appeals to the emotions. 

In this point, I agree with my friend.


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 3, 2011)

mverta @ Fri Jul 01 said:


> There's a reason the composer's credit is right up at the top of the film with the stars and the director's: The music is a principal player in the show.



Good point.


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## Ashermusic (Jul 4, 2011)

Guy Bacos @ Sun Jul 03 said:


> mverta @ Fri Jul 01 said:
> 
> 
> > There's a reason the composer's credit is right up at the top of the film with the stars and the director's: The music is a principal player in the show.
> ...



Yes, and just as a featured actor needs to know when a script requires him/her to take a lower-key approach to let his fellow actors and the words and images shine, so must a film composer know when the music needs to assert itself and when to be a lower profile supporting player.


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## David Story (Jul 4, 2011)

Ashermusic @ Mon Jul 04 said:


> Yes, and just as a featured actor needs to know when a script requires him/her to take a lower-key approach to let his fellow actors and the words and images shine, so must a film composer know when the music needs to assert itself and when to be a lower profile supporting player.



+10


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## germancomponist (Jul 4, 2011)

This is all true what you are saying, but this was not the question. 

So I will ask in other words: How many people who watch a film (and are no composers) do recognize the great work from the composers who did it all right, what you explained how to score a film?

10%, 20% ....100% ?


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## David Story (Jul 4, 2011)

*Re: The best film music*



germancomponist @ Mon Jul 04 said:


> This is all true what you are saying, but this was not the question.
> 
> So I will ask in other words: How many people who watch a film (and are no composers) do recognize the great work from the composers who did it all right, what you explained how to score a film?
> 
> 10%, 20% ....100% ?



10%
This is a major point. The public has very little music appreciation, it's no longer taught in US schools. 
When you promote soundtrack albums, film and game music concerts, and music in schools you're doing a great service.
If you ask them to listen, 6 year olds notice the music in a film. But 90% of the time they just take in the experience.


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## Dominik Raab (Jul 8, 2011)

I'm quite sure I heard those words out of a certain Mr. Zimmer's mouth several times.

I beg to differ: A good film score, in my opinion, is one that's not recognized by *musically not interested or educated people*!
People like us (I'm not talking about "better people" or something, don't get me wrong!) are used to pay attention to scores, because that's what we do. People who go to the cinema "because of the pictures" simply don't care. They'll notice everything that seems off, but as soon as it blends in perfectly, they just hear it unknowingly / unconsciously.

There are, of course, some scores that are SO great that even people who don't care about film music remember them.
I think there are two kinds of very good scores: Supportive scores only recognized by people who pay attention to them - and truly outstanding scores everybod knows. Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Pirates... you get the idea.


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