# Entering music: midi file vs playing it?



## danbo (Jun 24, 2018)

Hello,
I've got a classical composing background and am getting into DAW composing, I'm writing for large orchestral and small ensemble. The technical bits aren't a problem, the big problem I'm wrestling with is how to get the damn notes in.

My workflow is that other than noodling on the piano I start with paper. I can't compose a full piece at the computer or keyboard. Then I score it in Lilypond, and from that can output a midi file which I could import into Logic. So here's one approach


Compose on paper
Transcribe to Lilypond
Output midi file from Lilypond (and printed score which I need)
Import midi into Logic
Articulate and phrase in Logic
Output audio

The other approach obviously is to _play_ the lines into Logic at step 4 instead of importing the midi. I prefer the first approach because I'd rather not play all of those lines into the computer as a timesaver. But the problem is I'm not sure if I can or how I can get the expressiveness I need without doing that. I'm using EWHO, it seems that CC1/CC11 are the main controls and not a problem, but I'm not sure of how to get the durations and velocities of the midi right without playing the lines.

Thoughts? Does anybody do the workflow above, or is it hopeless and you have to play all the lines into the DAW?

Thanks -


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## Garry (Jun 24, 2018)

There's much to be said for just drawing the notes in manually into the Piano roll using the pencil tool, and then adjusting length as needed; expressiveness is then added by drawing automation in (if you're not sure how to do this, look up MusicTechHelpGuy on Youtube - he has a very comprehensive tutorial series on Logic, and this is a topic he covers). The pencil tool approach seemed laborious to me, but who am I to argue when @Ben E says this is how he does it (check out some of his compositions if you have any doubts that this sort of workflow will not leave you lacking expressiveness!).

Another option, which when I first heard about it, felt was game-changing, is Step Input in Logic. Using this, you can enter midi notes via your keyboard, but not in real-time, just at the rate you type them in; you change note duration using the on-screen midi keyboard, and then add expression as automation (either draw the curves in yourself, or use a midi controller, such as the inexpensive Korg nanokontrol2). There's a brief overview of how to use Step Input here, which is all you'll need, as the concept itself is pretty straightforward. Good luck.


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## JT (Jun 24, 2018)

Do whatever works for you. There's no right or wrong way to do this. 

Sometimes I'll follow your steps, using Finale instead of Lilypond, and bring that midi into Logic, then edit. Other times I'll play the lines in. For me, my limited keyboard chops hinder me. The difference being, when I work from a midi files, I'll take a longer time editing in Logic. For example, if you have a fortissimo on a downbeat in a notation file, it'll give all the instruments the exact same dynamic playing at the exact same millisecond. That wouldn't happen with real musicians or playing the parts in one at a time. 

Bottom line, if you prefer working from a midi file, go for it.


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## danbo (Jun 25, 2018)

Garry said:


> There's much to be said for just drawing the notes in manually into the Piano roll using the pencil tool, and then adjusting length as needed; expressiveness is then added by drawing automation in (if you're not sure how to do this, look up MusicTechHelpGuy on Youtube - he has a very comprehensive tutorial series on Logic, and this is a topic he covers).



Garry, Thanks so much for your post, I'm glad to hear that some people take this route.

On automation I've used that for volume sliders, and apparently can automate generic midi events, such as CC 1/11 for vol/expression as used in HWSO, so that works. Your reply makes me think through this, I guess what I'm wondering is can I automate velocity and duration without playing it? I think the answer is no. Following up with JT




JT said:


> The difference being, when I work from a midi files, I'll take a longer time editing in Logic. For example, if you have a fortissimo on a downbeat in a notation file, it'll give all the instruments the exact same dynamic playing at the exact same millisecond.



That seems to answer it. I'm a pianist so playing the parts is fine, but I just wanted to save the time to do it. But if I read in a midi file I'll just get a machine gun transcription ... sounds like I need to pay them in to get the expressiveness and interpretation I need. 

Thanks guys for your help. I spent many years in an orchestra, I guess it'll be enjoyable to get the chance to 'be' each section of the orchestra this time, so that's OK.


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## Ben E (Jun 26, 2018)

danbo said:


> On automation I've used that for volume sliders, and apparently can automate generic midi events, such as CC 1/11 for vol/expression as used in HWSO, so that works. Your reply makes me think through this, I guess what I'm wondering is can I automate velocity and duration without playing it? I think the answer is no.



Hi Danbo,

I enter all notes using the mouse. Everything begins locked to the tempo grid. After the notes are entered I automate everything manually — tweak it to sound right -- in Logic's piano roll window. Prior to tweaking, the playback is awful sounding like the “machine gun” you mention. All velocities are the same, no expression, everything sounds like a metronome

Velocity and duration aren’t “automated” in the strictest sense of the word. Duration is adjusted by grabbing the midi event and stretching it to the desired length - for feel. Velocity is manually adjusted using the velocity tool on the midi event, sliding its color from deep purple (soft) to red (hard.) On non-velocity patches (strings, say) then drawing in CC1 automation controls dynamics (as you know.) And subtle tempo changes (for feel) is controlled by drawing in the master tempo track. All of these techniques are fully demonstrated by MusicTechHelpGuy on his excellent Youtube Logic tutorial series -- as @Garry recommended above. (If you're just getting started in Logic I can't recommend this guy enough.)

So at the end of the day, if someone gave me an orchestral midi file rendered from a notation software (Sibelius, Finale…etc.) I would open it in Logic and get to work drawing automation curves, nudging notes, tweaking tempo and adjusting velocities — all with the mouse. When I was done you probably couldn’t tell it wasn’t played in. If you're decently quick with your notation software then that's what you should do in my opinion.

And @Garry , thanks for the kind words!

Ben


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## danbo (Jun 27, 2018)

Ben E said:


> And subtle tempo changes (for feel) is controlled by drawing in the master tempo track. All of these techniques are fully demonstrated by MusicTechHelpGuy on his excellent Youtube Logic tutorial series -- as @Garry recommended above. (If you're just getting started in Logic I can't recommend this guy enough.
> Ben



Thanks Ben, I’ve been going through MusicTechHelpGuy‘s videos but aren’t getting a lot, I think I’m familiar with the tools but not the workflow (been messing with Logic for years before getting serious now).

Well thanks for all the help, I think I have to play them in, I’m too much of a performing musician to use the mouse. My problem with playing in is I don’t like slaving to an audio track and metronome instead of human beings but oh well, time to get used to it.


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## Garry (Jun 27, 2018)

danbo said:


> Thanks Ben, I’ve been going through MusicTechHelpGuy‘s videos but aren’t getting a lot, I think I’m familiar with the tools but not the workflow (been messing with Logic for years before getting serious now).
> 
> Well thanks for all the help, I think I have to play them in, I’m too much of a performing musician to use the mouse. My problem with playing in is I don’t like slaving to an audio track and metronome instead of human beings but oh well, time to get used to it.


It doesn't matter too much whether you play the notes in live directly via a midi keyboard, play them in offline with a midi keyboard (step input), or draw them in (pencil tool), it just depends on what suits the individual best - sounds like the first option is for you. Either way, once you have the midi notes in, you're going to want to edit them. Similarly, you can enter the CC automation (expression, vibrato, etc) and change note velocity live, or draw it in after - whichever suits you best, but unless you can get all of that in one live take, you're going to need to edit. Have a look at episodes 25-30 from MusicTechHelpGuy for Midi input/editing - hope that's what you're looking for.


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## danbo (Jun 27, 2018)

Garry said:


> Have a look at episodes 25-30 from MusicTechHelpGuy for Midi input/editing - hope that's what you're looking for.



Thanks for the pointer, going through those now. Mostly known but I'm getting tidbits I wasn't aware of (unfortunately I despise his musical tastes which makes it hard  )

Yeah FWIW I think my workflow will be in two phases as composer and performer (writing this out for my own sake)

*Composer*

Noodle on the piano until I get my motif and idea nailed down
Write it out longhand on paper
Input that into Lilypond (in the tradition of longhand I leave obvious bits out, but in performance I need it to be perfectly spelled out, so transcribing is when I get all the details figured out)

*Performing*

Play the lines into the computer to capture note value, velocity and duration
Use automation for articulation, CC1, CC7 and CC11 (primarily with the East West libraries I use) using the Maschine Jam
Any final tracking automation added with X-touch (volume, pan)
Well that's what I'll try at least, maybe I'll mess more with midi->Logic/automation/pencil work, if it's faster.


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## Garry (Jun 27, 2018)

danbo said:


> (unfortunately I despise his musical tastes which makes it hard  )


Yes, I know exactly what you mean! He really knows his stuff, but I have to switch off my musical taste receptors!

I think your workflow makes sense; I skip the paper part of it, but only out of ignorance - I wish I was able to do this, seems something more pure and closer to the score when you're writing it down, but alas, for me the DAW enables me to compose, when otherwise it would be beyond me.

Good luck.


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## danbo (Jun 27, 2018)

Garry said:


> I think you workflow makes sense; I skip the paper part of it, but only out of ignorance - I wish I was able to do this, seems something more pure and closer to the score when you're writing it down, but alas, for me the DAW enables me to compose, when otherwise it would be beyond me.



Thanks for your help. On the scoring, honestly I have no idea how you guys can do this without the paper. Once the computer gets involved the cognitive load on my brain gets too high (and I became a software engineer after music!) It's only with a score can I get perspective on what I'm trying to do. So hats off to you folks who can do it all in one go.


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## smallberries (Aug 7, 2018)

My spidey sense says @danbo is not fessing up to the secret pleasure of typesetting the music in Lilypond. Scratches a whole different itch (the work, and the product).

I also am sorting out how to get more expressive MIDI out of Lilypond in the workflow sketched out in the OP (tonight it is rolled chords). I've been advised that anything expressive should happen in the DAW, which is fine for curves but really bites if you have nudged notes themselves and want to revise the score.

In dreamsville we could score all that extra MIDI control info as well (because it is nice to have your piece all documented in one place, and because audio previews would be more than just machine-gun), before exporting to the DAW for nudging. I've not yet heard of anyone making progress on such a plan though.


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## Divico (Aug 18, 2018)

I found step recording and importing midi pretty useful vor fast stuff. A Humanisation function Can help very quickly to tackle some machinegun and midi sounding problems.


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## danbo (Aug 19, 2018)

smallberries said:


> My spidey sense says @danbo is not fessing up to the secret pleasure of typesetting the music in Lilypond. Scratches a whole different itch (the work, and the product).



True enough.

FWIW you can do a little experiment. Type "How to compose music" into Google's "Talk to Books" which is a semantic search (it looks for the meaning of what you write, rather than the explicit words). Some interesting stuff comes up

Guerrilla Film Scoring: Practical Advice from Hollywood Composers
"Try to follow the work flow required in analog days, because you will be better focused and will probably get faster results. Write first, then choose sounds and instruments, then record, then mix, and then master. You could do all of those things simultaneously, but the writing, in particular, will benefit from uninterrupted focus"

Anyhow I'm not trying to mess with Lilypond other than to get the score out during the orchestration stage. While playing it into the DAW I got a Hornberg breath station, which works great for me as I was a professional clarinetist once a time. Easy for me to get expressive lines that way with the keyboard so problem mostly solved.


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