# What is it with Video Editors !!!?



## Fifikins (Feb 25, 2016)

Disclaimer: Writing is pretty much a disability for me... so please be warned, this may be completely incoherent. Writing and making sense can be for me, like successfully walking up a stair case while juggling with my feet. 

The title doesn't entirely represent my position, as in a most significant way, I am co-pilots with the offline video editor. They are my team mate and buddy <3 

However, I don't know how to write this in another way to communicate what I need to communicate... other than taking a narrow-minded position of, "what's yo' problem, maaan?"...

So... hmmm.... hahah maybe I should write it like that..... sorry if that's annoying, but I need to also maintain that this is not entirely my position. 

*turns baseball cap to the side*

Why editors be like, "I need some.....

Wait... this isn't going to work... I'm English... 

Ahhh ! ok... getting to the point....... (damn.. this post sounded so clear in my head when I started it)... 

(I have ADHD, so my brain is like an orchestra without a conductor.. so I can't concentrate on things like typing 1 line of thought into a text box. Although my brain is seen as having a disability and defected, and labeled as such.... It's actually just that my differences are weak in most ways this world is designed for a majority group brain... a bit like... I am a fish.. and most people are squirrels... and the worlds systems and tasks are mostly oriented in design around tree climbing... when I need to swim in the water. So, I am as disabled, as a fish has a tree-climbing disability....... writing in text boxes can be...... AHHH fuck I'm digressing too much.... becuase of the orchestra-without-a-conductor thing I mentioned... so what I'm writing now is like a trumpet player in the brass section doing a little trumpet solo while everyone waits for him to shut up so can carry on with the musical piece of, *"What is it with Video Editors !!!?"*)

Damn.. that was a long bracket... *Puts flag in the ground* I shall call it, Mount Bracketelona ! 

So... in many situations working with film people in a project, I often encounter expectations of the music composer to be and do so many things which do not make sense to me. (not like I am making any sense now *cough*).... 

hmmmm... again... text box to communicate one thing at a time... when this requires title headings I guess... like, "The Real Ship Captains of Creative Vision".... and "Wo to the Chicken McNugget Chef"... and "Harmonizing Co-Pilot Workflows in Post Production".. 

I think my biggest challenge with writing is that I'm so anxious about being misunderstood that I end up getting hyper vigilent in trying to say too many things at the same time.. to the point that I make no sense.... so maybe I should try and say it in a way that makes sense to me.. and see if it makes sense.. *goes crossed eyed*......... *taps side of head*....... *left eye slowly realigns to normal-looking position*

BRAIN !! FOCUS !! hahah so sorry

I've met different kinds of piano players (I would say pianist but it always makes me think of the word penis.... and that made me think of Gangstas Paradise for some reason).. (urrgh.. I'm extra all-over-the-place with this post.. as there's many things I feel anxious and scared about...)... And some piano players (sorry about the constant internal dialogue, I can't think and then type, I have to type while I'm thinking....... ADHD.. also like someone flicking TV channels on a remote in your head constantly modulating attention from one thing to the next...... "Orchestra without a conductor".. different parts of the brain blurting out impulsively........ Although, with music I am hyper-focused and like a fish in water).... 

*hits self in face with a flippery wet salmon* 

Ok... Piano players

*pats salmon on head and apologizes*

Salmon: "Get off me you twat, throw me back in the water!!"

Piano players... 

I've met many who can play the most complex and technical pieces of piano in the world... and you think, wow, they are incredible!!!... 
But then ask them to take away the music and play....... and they can't play a note. They say, "I can't do that". Sheet music has become their guiding light... the fuel in their engine.. their green chilli Tabasco in their taco.. 

And I find that a lot of people can be like that with their work flow.... and many editors and some directors I work with, often have only used library/CD music to edit to.... and to them, that fully produced library music is like the light which lights up their darkness and illuminates the path ahead of them, shows them each step of the way..... And I want to work with them.... and say, "Hi! I'm you're audio co-pilot on this mission!... It seems there's an issue with your eyes..... You need to open them!.... the eyes of your heart!"... (oooh... Albert Einstein just put his hand up... Yes, Berty?, *German accent* "The greatest emotion we can experience is the mysterious, it is the source of all true art and all science. Those to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe; are as good as dead; their eyes are closed"..... Wow... thanks Bertlestein, your words are like a jimmy hendrix riff reverberating around the cosmos... and to be quite honest, when it bounced back and my heart felt that, I had a rather peculiar involuntary twitch in my left testicle)... 







Ok... rewind rewind rewind... 

Even when create a big goodies pack of music and sounds for the offline editors to work with.. inspired by whatever I can get my hands on.. story boards, mood shots, location shots, downloading from the director and anyone heading up creative vision... and I make concept music, sound fx, click tracks and glorified click tracks... all in the tempo which has been confirmed/locked down as the BPM of the music..... anyone who gets it, says, "great! this gives the editor so much to work with"...... but for some editors, if it's not a fully produced piece of music to make a first edit / A Copy edit to.... then they're like a classically trained pianist (I'll say it this time, as I'm immaturely suggesting they're being a bit of a dick..... when really, I am no less responsible in this team work process to: *deliver*).... who doesn't have the sheet music (fully produced library music track) to play to... 

And that's why I want to say OPEN YOUR EYES........ the music is in everything ! and you have so much to work with..... "You are not a drop in the ocean, you are the entire ocean within a drop"... Thanks, Rumi... put your hand up next time ! *break dances to Schindlers List theme*. 

But then again... this is when it comes back to the Chicken McNugget chef thing...... designers, creators and builders of worlds (all of us lot... composers, editors, film makers etc)... have so many factors which can set a course for us to pursue.... and so often in our industries we are asked to sit down, shut up, close our eyes, stop dreaming, dim down the power on our projections of creative vision.. and focus our attention onto a scraggly little chicken McNugget... with a view to using wonderful ingredients, and producing a salt-high homogeneous piece of tick-the-box work........ and as most people in these industries are freelancers.. so "we" on the whole mostly don't get chance to team together with other people to say.... We can do better than this........ and not because we "want to be arty farty" with a clients budget... but because we want to put a massive smile on our clients face, and any agencies... and brilliant for the target audience.. and win awards, get cool show reel work....... 

And really...... it's like people we can work for... can be in the top of a big building... and we approach the building and security holds out an arm and stops our shoulder and says, "Who are you?"...... and we (I'm saying we.. I just mean creatives generally in this vague analogy).. We say, "I'm someone who's services have been requested".. and they say, "wait there" and turn to whisper into their com.. "Ok, you can go inside, and put this on" and they pass you hat that says, "Chicken McNugget chef"......

Instead.... what we want is as they see us approaching the building they are talking into their com, "we have a pilot approaching, make preparations for their arrival".. which is relayed to multiple other people in that building..... and there's a kitchen inside.. where instead of ingredients and methods being dictated.. they are worked out by a professional team.... and instead of having 20 head chefs running around and making everyone in the kitchen cook 10 different recipes for the same dish..... there's a head chef (director!) who can captain a ship, and get everyone who doesn't need to be there out, and have everyone rowing in the same direction... to treasure island and get that treasure.. and bring it back and make everyone happy. 






Damn it ! I really wanted to write a post that made some sense :( 

well... I am sick of writing stuff and not posting it... so I'll post this anyway... "how to lose friends and alienate people" *sigh*

I will make sense some day. I am very hopeful and confident of that.. and feel at peace that I will


----------



## Fifikins (Feb 25, 2016)

I find it very challenging to work with editors who don't have or don't use creative vision... because their work flow has been conditioned to use library music. 

I do not mind working together with them and making a new work flow click in their understanding... that is a shared journey and a privilege to share..... 

However..... when I say I don't like a certain aspect of this, it is not with reference to lack of experience and that being a problem....... it is with reference to editors or other people turning it back onto the music composer being responsible for setting the structure of an edit with the music.....

On the other hand, editors who use creative vision and know what they are doing, like working with me... they express appreciation for giving them so much to work with...... but occasionally, I work with editors and directors who take on the position of a ship captain of creative vision, in various ways.... and then instead of bringing me in on pre-production...... they bring me in on post-production and essentially say, "So, where are we going?"... and they tell others, "This is the composers job now, to provide coordinates for us to naviagte in that direction..."... and others are pursuaded by this backwards logic and ask, "Where are the coordinates ? can you provide them please"....

And then I'm in the position of being a suit tailor... and a client coming in and saying, "I want a suit"... 
and I say, "Ok, what kind of suit?"
And they say, "I don't know".....
And I ask them a load of questions about it's function and they say, "I don't know".... 
I say, "what do you know?"
and they say, 
"It might need to fire resistant.... and also suitable for scuba diving... but it needs to be very elegant too... possibly... and also quite "Mad Max: Fury Road".... 

Ooooooooookay then..... So I put something together, and they try it on and say, "I like it.... but can you change the color and instead of it being a suit, can you make it a beach bucket of triangles which glow in the dark?"...

..... damn... I was trying to make more sense with this post...


----------



## Hannes_F (Feb 26, 2016)

Concentration.


----------



## MA-Simon (Feb 26, 2016)

Sorry but I started drifting away about a few lines in. 

Please don't use those thing: "..." , "...." & "......".
It does not make it any more readable.


----------



## Fifikins (Feb 26, 2016)

I am much clearer in person.... I often lose all executive function in writing... sometimes I'm ok... but it's like translating ancient greek using spaghetti and glue on paper while sat on the roof of a fast speed train


----------



## Fifikins (Feb 26, 2016)

it's why I couldn't study music at college or generally in the education system. Fun times... well, at least it's a learning experience for me lol... On forums I will stick to subjects which are easier for me to focus on xD


----------



## pkm (Feb 26, 2016)

I mean this question seriously and with respect:

Does your ADHD allow you to write these posts, but then go back through a second time with the delete key to get rid of anything unnecessary to the point you want to make? 

So let all the ideas come out, but then go just as wild with Delete as you did with words and ellipses.


----------



## Fifikins (Feb 26, 2016)

my tendency to


pkm said:


> I mean this question seriously and with respect:
> 
> Does your ADHD allow you to write these posts, but then go back through a second time with the delete key to get rid of anything unnecessary to the point you want to make?
> 
> So let all the ideas come out, but then go just as wild with Delete as you did with words and ellipses.



thanks for asking  

What happens when I go back and edit, is I make it 10 times longer and make it even worse, or I delete it because I know how bad it will be.

So then I stay silent instead of saying anything. Which is what I have done most of my life. But now I have a daughter, I have to change. 

which is part of the reason I came to this forum recently.. but I have a lot to learn about how to communicate and create dialogue in a way that has some rational discourse. Which is challenging as what's stronger than ADHD modulating my attention is the self defeating thoughts of, "you won't make any sense"... Which I have to breathe and just keep learning through. 

I get hypergraphic.. which is a compulsion to write.. AKA "river of words".. and my differences are SOOOOOO different to what people think is normal... that these differences often get other labels, and ruffle peoples feathers as they think, "Why be like that?"... as for them, it would be a choice to be another way. But for me, my thinking is always like this


----------



## pkm (Feb 26, 2016)

Definitely don't stay silent. In situations like this it's better to say too much than nothing at all. I can tell there was a lot on your mind for your original post, but your replies to people in here are much more focused and coherent.

If you can force yourself to limit your editing pass to the delete key, try that. Otherwise, I will try to interpret your post as best I can.

Your biggest problem with editors is what? That they don't care about artistry, so they don't ask or expect you to do anything too artistic? Or is it when you provide them with all the elements to make something truly artistic, they don't make it artistic? Or that it just seems like they don't care, and they won't give you enough direction before your start composing?


----------



## Fifikins (Feb 26, 2016)

pkm said:


> Definitely don't stay silent. In situations like this it's better to say too much than nothing at all. I can tell there was a lot on your mind for your original post, but your replies to people in here are much more focused and coherent.
> 
> If you can force yourself to limit your editing pass to the delete key, try that. Otherwise, I will try to interpret your post as best I can.
> 
> Your biggest problem with editors is what? That they don't care about artistry, so they don't ask or expect you to do anything too artistic? Or is it when you provide them with all the elements to make something truly artistic, they don't make it artistic? Or that it just seems like they don't care, and they won't give you enough direction before your start composing?



No need to read the first post. You've calmed down a lot of my internal erm (I won't try and describe that..) I will rephrase in maximum 3 sentences !


----------



## Fifikins (Feb 26, 2016)

thank you, by the way )


----------



## Fifikins (Feb 26, 2016)

pkm said:


> Definitely don't stay silent. In situations like this it's better to say too much than nothing at all. I can tell there was a lot on your mind for your original post, but your replies to people in here are much more focused and coherent.
> 
> If you can force yourself to limit your editing pass to the delete key, try that. Otherwise, I will try to interpret your post as best I can.
> 
> Your biggest problem with editors is what? That they don't care about artistry, so they don't ask or expect you to do anything too artistic? Or is it when you provide them with all the elements to make something truly artistic, they don't make it artistic? Or that it just seems like they don't care, and they won't give you enough direction before your start composing?



thank you. 

With some editors... I've found that in various post-production situations I've been in, before ANYTHING is locked down. They have unreasonable expectations of what music they want in their hands to edit to. Other editors, we have a blast and bounce off each other and enjoy it.


----------



## Fifikins (Feb 26, 2016)

example: Doing a project now, where the TVC has been shot... the editor has received the footage... and I have sent in about 3 concepts, 2 click/rhythm tracks and about 20 short samples (hits, climaxes, ambiance and so on)...

The director (who is a legend, and I love working with him).. is super happy with what sounds I've provided for the editor to begin cutting to. 

The editor receives the audio and essentially says, "What am I supposed to do with this? I need a sound track".... And the director is telling me, "We'll have to try and show them how this works".... (because what they got, should be an offline editors dream.. and set us up for a much smoother create process with better end results). 

Wish I could communicate this. I'm aware it's not forming into a coherent question. I just can't untangle it.


----------



## Fifikins (Feb 26, 2016)

the editor wants a sound track from a composer, who has only seen location shots and a story board...... and this is of a really fast paced car chase sequence in 160 BPM...... and I haven't seen any of the footage.


----------



## Fifikins (Feb 26, 2016)

Hannes_F said:


> Concentration.



Please can you help me to understand you meaning ?


----------



## Fifikins (Feb 26, 2016)

MA-Simon said:


> Sorry but I started drifting away about a few lines in.
> 
> Please don't use those thing: "..." , "...." & "......".
> It does not make it any more readable.



I will try, thanks for the feedback


----------



## Fifikins (Feb 26, 2016)

Gabriel Oliveira said:


> tldr



I had to google that lol "too long, didn't read"... (i get that a lot xD)


----------



## Hannes_F (Feb 26, 2016)

Fifikins said:


> the editor wants a sound track from a composer, who has only seen location shots and a story board...... and this is of a really fast paced car chase sequence in 160 BPM...... and I haven't seen any of the footage.



OK this is a good and valid question I think, and thanks to PKM for helping here.

As I observe it, "pre-composing" (composing a track with the supposed mood of the scene, based on the script, without having seen footage) is quite usual nowadays.

You could combine your already composed elements into one convincing track (or two) and provide that to the editor as your main work. And additionally you could give him the elements in case he wants them.


----------



## Fifikins (Feb 26, 2016)

Hannes_F said:


> OK this is a good and valid question I think, and thanks to PKM for helping here.
> 
> As I observe it, "pre-composing" (composing a track with the supposed mood of the scene, based on the script, without having seen footage) is quite usual nowadays.
> 
> You could combine your already composed elements into one convincing track (or two) and provide that to the editor as your main work. And additionally you could give him the elements in case he wants them.



That's the issue though... I "pre-compose" on almost every project I work on. It's something which directors like working with me for that reason, and express value in me being able to grasp their creative vision from their words, and the mood shots and story boards etc they give me. 

When I say "concept music" I am referring to "pre-composition" work. Where the mood, tempo, chord progressions, melodies.. many elements are there. 

The director was super happy with what I sent in. But when he sent it to the editor, the editor was lost... and said, "Can I edit to a film score from Borne Identity"...... And for me, that's fine (even though I find that a bit frustrating, my focus is to *deliver*)... For me, just give me a cut that gets us close to something lockable (structure wise) and I will compose to it. But the director said no to the editor, and said they need to work with what I sent (as we have a work flow this way which actually makes sense).


----------



## Fifikins (Feb 26, 2016)

Hannes_F said:


> Concentration.



Please can you let me know, Hannes. I don't understand. Thanks 

I can imagine various interpretations... in a way, I like the single word there... it's a bit like a frequency which connects with other frequencies. But I don't know how to interpret that.. certainly there are interpretations which can fall into various dualities of "positive" and "negative"... but I don't assume either way


----------



## mc_deli (Feb 26, 2016)

I think, unfortunately you have to get out of your own head and into the editor's head. I am inexperienced but I have already felt this pain.
Part of it is understanding what they really mean with terminology and descriptions - the mythical "common language". Even simple stuff. It took me a month to realise one editor meant latin percussion when he said "beat". Another editor confessed after a week that he had no musical knowledge* or understanding at all and I should basically ignore everything he told me. 

The other thing that I think is hard is that, as mentioned editors (TV/ad world) are conditioned to using library. When you are working with someone with library expectations about style, uniqueness, timing, budget, versioning etc. it is a strange place to be, especially with library as temp tracks.
They want something unique, but not the temp, but anything but the temp is not loved as the temp, anything too close is too much the temp...

*The exception. Most editors I know, actually all except that one, really have a deep knowledge of music and how it works with picture, what they want and what works. Still, finding the mutual understanding is hard for me at least. I really want a mentor or assistant role to learn!


----------



## Fifikins (Feb 26, 2016)

mc_deli said:


> I think, unfortunately you have to get out of your own head and into the editor's head. I am inexperienced but I have already felt this pain.
> Part of it is understanding what they really mean with terminology and descriptions - the mythical "common language". Even simple stuff. It took me a month to realise one editor meant latin percussion when he said "beat". Another editor confessed after a week that he had no musical knowledge* or understanding at all and I should basically ignore everything he told me.
> 
> The other thing that I think is hard is that, as mentioned editors (TV/ad world) are conditioned to using library. When you are working with someone with library expectations about style, uniqueness, timing, budget, versioning etc. it is a strange place to be, especially with library as temp tracks.
> ...



Cool to read ! 

The point about library music is something I think is a significant challenge. I get brought in on some projects and people in production houses, agencies and so on, i can feel clearly that there is discomfort about having a composer doing the music. Even when a director they respect is telling them I'm in on a project... I know that there is discomfort about it. I know it's because they're used to using library music... and that they are box tickers, not people who want to create great work (with reference to pleasing client, agency, potential advertising awards etc)... They want to just wrap up and throw out, and get to the finish line.

I even get treated with some hostility and disrespect by some production companies who have never worked with me before (well, I have a production assistant who takes on that communication... But I still experience it... as they re-negotiate budgets and keep knocking on our door with pointless distractions from the project).... but once the project is done, and they're all getting big pats on the back, they suddenly get really friendly and nice.

i definitely think the library music thing is a significant reason. 

As for editors I know and work more regularly with.. we're definitely on the same page. Mostly don't give me anything until a locked edit.


----------



## tack (Feb 26, 2016)

And here I thought you were about to rant about video editing software. Now _that's_ a rant I could get behind. 

Otherwise, interesting glimpse into the brain of someone with ADHD. Very frenetic and difficult to focus and understand the thought being expressed. As a reader, I felt like I was on a rickety train going supersonic with no particular destination.


----------



## Fifikins (Feb 26, 2016)

tack said:


> And here I thought you were about to rant about video editing software. Now _that's_ a rant I could get behind.
> 
> Otherwise, interesting glimpse into the brain of someone with ADHD. Very frenetic and difficult to focus and understand the thought being expressed. As a reader, I felt like I was on a rickety train going supersonic with no particular destination.



I like the visual :D 

The modulating attention is ADHD, but when I untangle everything else going.. there's lots of other stuff too lol. AvPD.. protection mechanisms.. hypergraphia.. bunch of things. 

Also... something I identified recently that I do, which I don't realise I'm doing it at the time. Related to something I heard Ricky Gervais talk about; what he does when he is in a new environment with people he doesn't know.. but wants to understand quite quickly who is in the enviroment.. he drops a joke like, "Why did the girl fall off the swing ?"
"because she had no arms".
And the direction of the "joke" is not at the girl of course, but at the reactions he gets in looks, gestures, comments, expressions. 

I realised that although this discussion is very clear in my mind. I have subconscious protection mechanisms being involuntarily triggered to avoid being seen/heard until I feel safe. 

I'm aware this is mostly not rational, as I didn't construct these mechanisms to cope and survive as an adult. It's all quite impairing as an adult. But I am deconstructing this all step by step, and making continued progress that's looking up.


----------

