# --



## Jack Weaver (Jan 21, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*

Not sure where you're from or what your background might be - but I thought you might want to know something about American campaign finances that's not bandied about in the press generally. That is that the former law stated that unions (a huge special-interest group in American politics with a single political view) were free to make as much and as many contributions at any time during an election cycle. 

Basically what the Supreme Court has done is to say that the unions are not the only group or individuals that have this right. Now in addition to these unions, all individuals and companies may do the same. Quite equitable really. 

This is the very crux of this case. So rest assured, now all American citizens are allowed to do what only a few could do recently. 

White House visitor logs showed recently that the number one visitor to the President and members of the Executive Branch has been the head of SEIU - Service Employees International Union - the union for public employees. Influence is definitely being exerted. ( I hope you noticed that the Senate Healthcare proposal included the throwing out of taxation for healthcare benefits for unions but for nobody else.) Obviously this campaign finance reforms comes a bit late but at an opportune time. 

Not so much reason to hate America really. 
.


----------



## José Herring (Jan 21, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*

As I understand it Jack that's not true. Unions were bound by the same laws as corporations. Now this ruling opens the floodgates for both unions and corporations. That's bad imo.

They no longer have to donate through PACs. They can now both donate to individual candidates.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 21, 2010)

This is anything but equitable. It totally sucks.

The corrupting influence on our government is indeed well worth hating, and this goes 180˚ in the wrong direction. You'll notice that it was another 5-4 decision, and guess whether it was the barely liberal contingent or the insane right contingent of the Supreme Court that had the majority.

This case came about because of a lying propaganda film against Hilary Clinton that was disguised as information. The five right-wing creeps on the Supreme Court ruled that abusing free speech and free speech are the same thing - which is predictable, because conservatives are wrong about every issue so why should this be any different.

(The exception is that John McCain co-authored this bill that this guts, which attempted to reform campaign finance. But that was before he abandoned his principles during the presidential campaign.)

And by the way, the White House logs stat is meaningless. I could visit Beyoncé five times a day and she'd still refuse my advances.

...never mind that unions *should* have an influence on government, since they represent millions of workers.

But the biggest problem with your argument, Jack, is that you're making it sound only fair that corporations should be able to spend whatever they want to lie about excellent candidates like Hilary Clinton...all because of this mythological scale you've constructed with unions on the other side.

It ain't like that.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 21, 2010)

> ( I hope you noticed that the Senate Healthcare proposal included the throwing out of taxation for healthcare benefits for unions but for nobody else.)



I hope you noticed that not a single f-ing Republican voted for it or the House version - both of which are already watered down because our country is still way too far to the right. That's because Republicans suck, most of all, but also because they're corrupt.

And because their strategy is to block everything Obama and most of the Democrats are trying to do for the good of the people in their country. They really want to regain power, and if they can make Obama fail - which is very easy to do (it's easy to destroy things) - they can point and say "see, we told you."

You may have noticed that I'm really distraught at the moment - because of this and because of the morons in Massachusetts. And because it looks like Obama is going to fold.


----------



## The_Dark_Knight (Jan 21, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*

--


----------



## The_Dark_Knight (Jan 21, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*

--


----------



## José Herring (Jan 21, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*

Look. I have nothing against corporations. I like my McDonald's burger just as much as the next guy. But in no way should they have unrestricted access to my government. No way. They aren't people. They're business entities. Now they almost have as much rights as people. Since when did the bill of rights extend to corporate entities? Hillary should be able to sue the hell out those filmmakers for slander. Why should the board of directors at companies like Enron have even more influence over our lives? It's not fair! The oil company billionaires already have too much influence. Now they're going to get to chose their own candidates too.

I voted for Obama because I thought he had the guts being a radical and all to stand up to this sort of thing. But imo he's not been radical enough in the first year to give me all too much hope that he'll suddenly find a spine in the next years to come.

Our highest court just sold out the people of the united states to the highest bidders. This should be war on the American government! They have clearly sold us out.

I don't care if you're dem or republican really. This means that we'll absolutely no say in who represents us anymore. They'll shove so many negative attack ads down the average tv watching morons throats that the mass man will just vote against whomever gets attacked the hardest.


----------



## chimuelo (Jan 21, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*

I LOVE AMERICA>>>>
What's happening to us is from foreign and domestic entities Hell bent on destroying the private sector and middle class. Simple as that..

Right Wing / Left wing are only names of certain hallways in the White House.

Warren Buffet, George Soros and CEO's of the worlds largest corporations sit in on cabinet meetings w/ Obama, so I guess he's now a big corporation right winger.??
This is business as usual, the status quo.
The definition of Partisan politics is just standing firm until you get the right price that's all.
People should be asking themselves how such giant and shocking surprises can be hitting us 2 days in a row now.
Where were the " Left Wing " politicians while this case was unfolding...?
Now all of a sudden they break the news to us.....where was the "right wing " actors and actresses while this case was being purchased...?

This pathetic game is a continued series of short, insignificant scenes, mostly because these guys only have a few minutes to try and memorize what they are TOLD to say. Why do you think they hunch over " their " statements and have difficulty acting and reading...?

This isn't a left or right issue, this is the Power brokers who own our treasury, IMF and World Bank and the same folks that caused our property to lose 50% of its value.
I paid like a dog for 30 years and 15 years of work vanished because the powers that be fear the American middle class.
Well now they know they can control us as our wealth we worked for over the last 2 decades just went into their pockets.

Thank Your Senators & Congressmen next November.....
But what happens then.........The Huckabbes and the Romneys again......Hell NO.
You guys that believe there is a left or a right should vote for the poorest, middle class looking guys next year.
It makes sense to have someone who isn't wealthy or has a law degree represent us.
After 3 decades of voting I give up. I am voting for the ugliest, stupidest candidates I can find, what have I got to lose ??? the other 15 years of house payments I have left.....??

All of these elitists are pissing on my back and trying to tell me its raining, and I want them all arrested.
Just today in China a judge got life for taking a 500,000 dollar bribe.
Well I guess Ben Nelson would be executed for his " vote ."


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## david robinson (Jan 21, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Jan 21 said:


> This is anything but equitable. It totally sucks.
> 
> The corrupting influence on our government is indeed well worth hating, and this goes 180˚ in the wrong direction. You'll notice that it was another 5-4 decision, and guess whether it was the barely liberal contingent or the insane right contingent of the Supreme Court that had the majority.
> 
> ...



nick, for once we are in total agreement.
you should come to australia and experience gov't by remote control from? guess where. ANYWHERE BUT AUSTRALIA.
what are we? chopped liver?
jr.


----------



## RiffWraith (Jan 21, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*



The_Dark_Knight @ Fri Jan 22 said:


> It is this very infiltration that has MADE AMERICA A TARGET of ENDLESS HATRED AROUND THE WORLD.



Do you really think that people in other countries that hate/have a dislike for America feel that way because big corporations and unions are now free to spend large amounts of money on elections campaigns?

Ok, you did say infiltration, which leads me to believe you are referring to a larger "conspiracy", and/or an ongoing process that has already been set in motion. What process?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 21, 2010)

I think we agree about most things, David - starting with the fact that I'm always right.



I wrote:



> That's because Republicans suck, most of all, but also because they're corrupt



That came out wrong. I didn't mean to imply that Republicans are more corrupt than Democrats. They do suck, but all our politicians need money to campaign. The corruption I'm talking about isn't totally direct, of course, but it explains why the healthcare bill got watered down as far as it did.

And it's not clear anything is going to pass now, which shows that our system is total fongula.


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## Reegs (Jan 21, 2010)

I'm a Massachusetts resident. The recent Brown-Coakley election ruined my ability to watch TV. Why? Because the only commercials on television were campaign ads. During a break in Leno, I counted six commercials. Three were ads for Brown. The other three were ads for Coakley. This situation happened repeatedly, on almost every channel, for almost every show.

I turned off the television. I truly think you're going to see a lot of subtle frustration during campaign seasons from voters from now on because of this ruling. If there's one thing Americans won't stand for being held hostage, sadly it's their television programs. I get turned off when I feel inundated by people telling me how I should vote. It might backfire on corporations in that overendorsement of a candidate negatively affects their bottom line. 

That, or we'll learn to ignore them, like Internet banners.

My $0.02.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 21, 2010)

I agree with most of Jose's last post. McDonald's, no - I can't eat anything there. But there's nothing wrong with corporations, just undue corporate influence.

It's the government's job to look out for both business and consumers, of course. We need both.


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## gsilbers (Jan 21, 2010)

c0mp0ser @ Thu Jan 21 said:


> I don't see what the problem is. The unions will support the dems, and the corporations will support the repubs.
> 
> Both sides can now legally support what they want.
> 
> ...




unions do not have anywhere near the amount of money big corporations have. 

BTW

http://www.storyofstuff.com/

play the story of stuff video.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 21, 2010)

It's not that simple, Michael. Of course there's nothing wrong with corporations. I'm the CEO of two of them. 

The issue is the corrupting influence of money in our government. That exact problem is what has led to this country not being so great as you think it is. Tell the 17% of the country that's unemployed - and likely to remain so for a good long time, since the useless Republican deficit hawks won't allow anything to be done about it - 
tell them to dream their houses and savings back.


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## gsilbers (Jan 21, 2010)

true. i think from now on and what this is about is BIG MEGA CORPORATIONS defined as corporate entities that deal with shiat loads of money. yes, the proper way is that.  

for example philip morris, kraft, monsantos.. and on the good side... hmm.. is sierra club a coroporation?  non profit corp?


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## The_Dark_Knight (Jan 22, 2010)

gsilbers @ Thu Jan 21 said:


> c0mp0ser @ Thu Jan 21 said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.storyofstuff.com/
> ...



Good video.


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## chimuelo (Jan 22, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*

The corporations to watch are the ones that have Government Contracts especially the ones that are " convertible " for wartime use, and naturally its stockholders are the wealthiest in the world...
DuPont and the GMO crop killer who brought us Agent Orange..............Monsanto.
These corportaions are capable of making Pelosi into a Moose Hunter with endless wealth and power. I can safely say every Lord from England has a piece of this one. Why else does Britian and the USA fight together everywhere in the World.............It surely isn't because of the UN.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 22, 2010)

By the way, this is why I'm so furious:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-and- ... 0920.story

Supreme Court OKs unlimited corporate spending on elections

The justices overturn a century of U.S. electoral law by a 5-4 vote. Millions of extra dollars are expected to start flowing from big business to this fall's races, much of it benefiting Republican candidates.


----------



## JohnG (Jan 22, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*

According to Chris Cox, former head of the SEC, financial institutions spent $336 million in _the first nine months alone_ of 2009 on lobbying in the US.

Following the Supreme Court decision, they actually can spend even more, with fewer constraints. I don't think there's a countervailing voice that has the resources to compete with this torrent of money. If your opponent takes that money, you had better too. Most financial institutions give a lot to both sides in elections, not just "business-friendly" candidates. The result is that no politician can say "no" and thus the well-financed lobbying campaigns guarantee a voice -- a potent voice -- in drafting the legislation intended to regulate their own industries.

I doubt that the Framers of the constitution had such bloated spending by the Fortune 50 in mind when they guaranteed free speech.

And I still think America is a great place. This issue needs a constitutional amendment, apparently.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 22, 2010)

I still think America is a great place too. It's the next step to "the greatest country on earth" that I have the problem with.


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## José Herring (Jan 22, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*

Yes Nick Republican politicians are rejoicing over the decision. But in all honesty I think this problem goes beyond left and right as a citizen of the US. I agree with Chimeleau (sp) in one regard. This issue will hurt all Americans. Instead of fighting for our votes politicians from now on will be fighting to buy our votes while the slick public relations marketing firms will be doing all they can to dress up the preferred candidate of the huge money industries. 

Hating America is misplaced. Hating the mfers that are in charge is time well spent.

Jose


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 22, 2010)

I don't hate America, and you're right that it's going to hurt the whole country, Republicans included.

But then Republicans continue to hurt the whole country, themselves included, with their terrible policies. And I'm writing that quite calmly - they really are wrong about every single issue.


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## gsilbers (Jan 22, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*



JohnG @ Fri Jan 22 said:


> According to Chris Cox, former head of the SEC, financial institutions spent $336 million in _the first nine months alone_ of 2009 on lobbying in the US.
> 
> Following the Supreme Court decision, they actually can spend even more, with fewer constraints. I don't think there's a countervailing voice that has the resources to compete with this torrent of money. If your opponent takes that money, you had better too. Most financial institutions give a lot to both sides in elections, not just "business-friendly" candidates. The result is that no politician can say "no" and thus the well-financed lobbying campaigns guarantee a voice -- a potent voice -- in drafting the legislation intended to regulate their own industries.
> 
> ...




The idea would be not have corporations pay any money for campains because thier only interests is to sell more and make thier shareholders happy.
Still it's very complex web of issues because we as consumer need or want those products. 
So iguess if two differenlty corporate back candidates still can r
be regular polititians then fine but there should be a way of knowing a corporation is backing up a candidate for millions of dolars. 
And that goes for the REAL company that is giving up rhe money
.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Jan 22, 2010)

c0mp0ser @ Thu Jan 21 said:


> I don't see what the problem is. The unions will support the dems, and the corporations will support the repubs.
> 
> Both sides can now legally support what they want.
> 
> ...



This was the most simplistic political opinion I've read in a long long time...


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## Frederick Russ (Jan 22, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Jan 22 said:


> I don't hate America, and you're right that it's going to hurt the whole country, Republicans included.



I don't hate America either. And I think you're right Nick.


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## JohnG (Jan 22, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*

Think labour spending will balance out that of corporations? 

For the first three quarters of 2009, labour comes in at $32 million, compared with over $300 million _each_ for Health, "Misc. Business," Finance, and Energy. 

Labor comes in 12th place:

Health $399,029,146
Misc Business $363,780,160
Finance, Insurance & Real Estate	$336,864,097
Energy & Natural Resources $301,619,035
Communications/Electronics $266,988,229
Transportation $185,341,218
Other $184,763,925
Ideological/Single-Issue $113,130,125
Agribusiness $104,380,783
Defense $96,746,660
Construction $41,027,356
Labor $32,243,245
Lawyers & Lobbyists $24,975,469

Source: opensecrets.org http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/top.ph ... ndexType=c

Lobbying spending is requireò„   Á/Ž„   Á/„   Á/„   Á/‘„   Á/’„   Á/“„   Á/”„   Á/•„   Á/–„   Á/—„   Á/˜„   Á/™„   Á/š„   Á/›„


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## chimuelo (Jan 23, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*

http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/lm_health.php

The website should be named partial secrets....
These are no secrets, but what are secrets are the industrial and political favors that in themselves are invaluable.
Notice the man who publicly denounces campaign financing and demands reform is the biggest recipient of money from Heath Care lobbyists. John McCain... :roll: 
What a hypocracy.
The wealthiest most influential member of the Senate Jay Rockefellar only recieved 500 USD...... :lol:

Rockefellars influence is industrial and political favor, so his family doesn't need these small publicly shared " contributions. " They are there basically to BUY legisaltion and having a represntative in the Senate from your family pretty much negates the need for access from lobbyists.
This is a good factual link for the public to show the influence of cash on the legislative process. 
But when laws are passed to share information with the public, the real money trading hands then transforms into other aspects of value.

Another example of such " laws that require " is our armed forces.
They have to kill in a politically correct manner so they can appear as liberators.
This is due to certain laws and restictions applied to our brave men and women.
So instead of actually getting the desired results from such laws that are designed to give more control to the legislators, it instead causes the birth of private security firms that operate in foreign lands where no such laws apply.......

The powers that be always find a way.
Just like the landmark decision from the Supreme Court.
Massachessetts was successfully corrupted, so why stop there.
It is no coincidence these events are happening in rapid succession.

How else could a super majority that had " Republicans " on the brink of extinction have so many major setbacks in a weeks time....?
Lots of promises made and a huge influx of cash.
This is not because of town hall meeting folks taking their Government back.
It's pure cash politics, which is where both parties are always in agreement....


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 23, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*

At least in America you have the freedom to complain about your government, such as a thread called: "Why I hate America".


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## midphase (Jan 23, 2010)

I think that whole argument about freedom to complain is getting stale. Aside from the fact the majority of civilized countries around the world enjoy the same freedom, it is not as black and white as it might seem here in the US. For example, during the BUsh administration, particularly during his first term, any voicing of one's opinion's against the administration resulted in said individual (or group) to be branded "anti-american" or "non-patriotic" Hell, remember the whole "freedom fries" thing? Entire countries like France were deemed anti-American by the crazies and I'm sure tourism and export was affected by that.

Not to mention heavy media censorship when it comes to actual protests, for example during the Bush administration, public protests were downplayed by the Bush-controlled media and hardly reported on.

So when we talk about freedom of speech, let's not assume that the US's got the exclusivity on the patent.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 23, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*

I agree, but if you ask americans in which country they would prefer to live if they had the choice, (and I wouldn't be surprised if that included people who hate america), Canada and USA is right up there. So it can't be THAT bad.


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## Niah (Jan 23, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*



Guy Bacos @ Sat Jan 23 said:


> I agree, but if you ask americans in which country they would prefer to live if they had the choice, Canada and USA is right up there. So it can't be THAT bad.



that's because most of them know so little about the rest of the world

"wow you guys have free college education and wealth care?? wow I didn't know that!!"

I mean most americans (and non-americans too) have fallen into the propaghanda that the USA is the best country in the world and the most free. I mean sure if you compare it to china and Iran, etc...

But you don't have to go very far to find a better country than the USA, just look up and it's right there: 

it's called CANADA :mrgreen:


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 23, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*

Well I'm happy in Canada. :D What do I know about politics anyway.

All right back to writing.


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## Niah (Jan 23, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*

And I echo midphase's post.

I mean sometimes I hear people talking like freedom of speech and things like free market are exclusive to the USA and that's why it is the greatest country in the world.

USA is great but not better or worse than most democratic and progressive countries, it has alot of good things but very bad ones too.

To me this "best country in the world" mentality that exists not only in the USA is what stops us from aknowledging the flaws and demading something better for the country we live in.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 23, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*

Ok Niah, if you had the choice, in which country would you like to live in?


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## Niah (Jan 23, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*

At this moment it would be Sweden.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 23, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*



Niah @ Sat Jan 23 said:


> At this moment it would be Sweden.



A bit far from the main film industry. No?


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## Niah (Jan 23, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*

oh yes but that's a whole nuther story isn't it?

If by main industry you are referring to the film industry then everywhere is far away if you are not in LA. I mean it's not like you can go to oklahoma and become a film composer heheheh

So from a film composer career perspective it is the place to be yes, but at the end of the end LA is still a city in the state of california where gays and lesbian can't marry and which has the death penalty.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 23, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*

Good news Niah, I have friends at the Sweden embassy. It's all been taken care, you are being shipped there tonight. Bon voyage!


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## Pzy-Clone (Jan 23, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*



Niah @ Sat Jan 23 said:


> At this moment it would be Sweden.



:shock: :shock: :shock:


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 23, 2010)

> At least in America you have the freedom to complain about your government, such as a thread called: "Why I hate America"



And that's about the best thing you can say about our system.

But are you saying that therefore we shouldn't be outraged at what the Supreme Court just did? If so, I find that idea extremely offensive. (I don't find you offensive, that idea.)

And Niah's absolutely right. No country is the greatest country on earth, and it's arrogant to believe that your country is.


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## Niah (Jan 23, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*



Pzy-Clone @ Sat Jan 23 said:


> Niah @ Sat Jan 23 said:
> 
> 
> > At this moment it would be Sweden.
> ...



I can change it to Norway if you like guyB have some friends at the norwegian embassy.  

And I forgot sweden doesn't have that blue light spiral thingy, :evil: 

gotta follow the light !


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## Pzy-Clone (Jan 23, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*



Niah @ Sat Jan 23 said:


> I can change it to Norway if you like guyB have some friends at the norwegian embassy.
> 
> And I forgot sweden doesn't have that blue light spiral thingy, :evil:
> 
> gotta follow the light !



Well...as long as you don`t choose Denmark you will be fine !
But u know how the old saying goes: If you can make it here, you probably have too much money.

Oh and regarding the original topic matter:
Why I hate America.?
= Chlorine. It sux.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 23, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Jan 23 said:


> > At least in America you have the freedom to complain about your government, such as a thread called: "Why I hate America"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nick, is that what I said? I don't even think I implied that. I only said something positive about America, since the thread was called, "why I hate America"

I could make a whole list of things I hate about the USA, including their extreme arrogance. And their arrogance is a big part of their strength, even though I hate that side sometimes.

I know we aren't living in 1978 anymore, but when you look at films like Midnight Express, you are so thankful that in the country you live in, you or your parents never lived in these conditions. I'm not saying America is No 1, but I'm sure there are a lot of countries today where the people would give anything to live in America. Perhaps people are spoiled here and take all the plus sides of living in America for granted.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 23, 2010)

Fair enough. It was the context that made me think that was what you were saying.

Of course America is still a great place to live - for most of us, anyway.


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## midphase (Jan 23, 2010)

"if you ask americans in which country they would prefer to live if they had the choice, (and I wouldn't be surprised if that included people who hate america), Canada and USA is right up there."

Americans tend to be very insular, if and when they visit foreign countries, they do so at their own terms and seek out comfort food like burgers. Most americans unfortunately have not been exposed to other countries enough to make a determination of where would be a great place to live. Many times, the ones who dig a bit deeper and really insert themselves into other cultures end up packing up and moving.

Having said that, the US is quite a great place in so many ways, and I think it's because of that that we hold it up to higher standards. If I didn't care about the US, I wouldn't be so vocal about things that damage its standing, and those range from intrusion into individual freedoms, to environmental issues.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 23, 2010)

midphase @ Sat Jan 23 said:


> Americans tend to be very insular, if and when they visit foreign countries, they do so at their own terms and seek out comfort food like burgers. Most americans unfortunately have not been exposed to other countries enough to make a determination of where would be a great place to live. Many times, the ones who dig a bit deeper and really insert themselves into other cultures end up packing up and moving.



I partly agree. We could look at this the other way around as well, all the US immigrants already knew what it was like in their own country and that's a big part of the reason why they came to America. Like the songs says: "They come to America"

(I probably wouldn't of posted anything or rebuttal on this thread if the title of it was a bit different.)


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## theheresy (Jan 24, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*

let's be honest being poor and damn near homeless in America is still better than being middle class in 75% if not more of the world's countries. (if they even have a middle class that is)


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Jan 24, 2010)

The US telethon for Haiti has thus far made 50+ million dollars...

In our tiny country with 16 million people we raised 42 million euros (60+ million dollars?) which was doubled by our governement (ok, the tax payers).

I still believe the majority of americans think that the world ends at their borders...

Not even a dollar per person? The richest, greatest nation in the world?

Sorry to all you good guys, but there is still not much sympathy for the US in Europe...


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## JohnG (Jan 24, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*

Emanuel,

Dude -- are you kidding? That is one telethon. How about the Red Cross, MSF, and other donations, and all the people texting $10 a pop on cell phones. I would be surprised if the total isn't 10 times that amount, from all sources.

One thing Americans generally share is generosity in a time of need. Don't take one figure and judge an entire country.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Jan 24, 2010)

I am talking about the money being donated to one bank account, number 555 (after calls in the media and a TV show) - I guess the same situation applies here, Red Cross and other organizations have also received donations of course.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 24, 2010)

Emanuel @ Sun Jan 24 said:


> The US telethon for Haiti has thus far made 50+ million dollars...
> 
> In our tiny country with 16 million people we raised 42 million euros (60+ million dollars?) which was doubled by our governement (ok, the tax payers).
> 
> ...



Do you know how much the other countries donated?


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Jan 24, 2010)

No, I don't, but when I compare "our" telethon, which raised 30 million euros ($42 m) on one evening with the US telethon, it just puzzles me...

12 million was already donated before the show.

We're talking about a tiny country with 16 million people compared with the 300 some million people in the US.

Do you think the US donations will be 300 / 16 times bigger than the Dutch? I really hope so for the people of Haiti!


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## Patrick de Caumette (Jan 24, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*



theheresy @ Sun Jan 24 said:


> let's be honest being poor and damn near homeless in America is still better than being middle class in 75% if not more of the world's countries. (if they even have a middle class that is)



Yet, another uneducated statement :roll:


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Jan 24, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*



theheresy @ Sun Jan 24 said:


> let's be honest being poor and damn near homeless in America is still better than being middle class in 75% if not more of the world's countries. (if they even have a middle class that is)



In most European countries you are FAR more better off in such a situation than in the US! Don't brag about care for the poor in the US!


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 24, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*

As I said earlier, I can think of tons of things wrong with America, and I honestly prefer Canada, but at the same time and what I'm not crazy about is you're bringing down your own country while you are taking advantage of its full benefits, I mean, you are still in America, no? There must be a reason for that, you are not forced to stay here, the world is big, just chose another country you think is better. It's as simple as that.

My view on America has always been, it has the best and the worst of everything. So if you just look at the worst of course it looks bad, very bad!


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 24, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*

Also the fact that per person it may not look so generous but you cannot overlook the total sum that comes for a country that took a lot of initiative in fund raising for this, as they so often do, and of course it will never be enough to take Haiti out of their miseries, but it is still a lot and it comes from America.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 24, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*

As long as voters don't have to take a general knowledge test to vote, we're all screwed long-term. Poorly educated voters can be more easily manipulated, frightened: Shoe/underwear bombers everywhere! Muslims are all evil! Saddam and Osama were buddies! Healthcare for all is the path to Communism! Code orange/red! The Haiti earthquake was a US experiment! Obama is a muslim terrorist sympathizer!, etc, etc.

Sample questions:

1. Who is the elected leader of your country?

2. On the following world map, please circle around these countries: Spain, Indonesia, Argentina.

3. Why is the separation of church and state a good thing?

4. Human beings evolved from the apes - true or false?

5. What does the earth revolve around?

6. Taxes are necessary for a government to function - true or false?


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Jan 24, 2010)

I found it very painful to hear that the incoming support planes for Haiti were being halted, because the US gave priority to planes for evacuating US citizens...


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 24, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*

That's why Bush was in power for 8 years, and he screwed up big time.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Jan 24, 2010)

Amen to that, dear friend!


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## The_Dark_Knight (Jan 24, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*

--


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## theheresy (Jan 24, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*

That's a good point, America has the best and the worst of the spectrum. You can find some of the best people and places, the most prosperous communities, then you can find places like Detroit that right now probably rival conditions in Haiti


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## hbuus (Jan 24, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*



theheresy @ Sun Jan 24 said:


> (...) then you can find places like Detroit that right now probably rival conditions in Haiti



Is this forum about Dungeons & Dragons? 'Cause I think I just saw a troll! :lol: 

Henrik


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## JohnG (Jan 24, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*

Emanuel, I realise your heart is in the right place, but you are not here and may not realise what's going on. Every school in the country is collecting money, clothing. Many individuals are playing concerts or holding benefits. Many companies have announced sizable donations, many of the Haitian orphans are headed here, and our government has more people on the ground, I would wager, than all other countries combined, giving aid and providing security -- which is also important to vulnerable people.

My brother in law runs a hospital company and they already have many, many patients airlifted from Haiti who will not be paying for their treatment or transportation.

These are not acts of selfishness. Haiti has no natural resources or other "strategic" assets that some nasty people are coveting; it's aid, pure and simple.

Please don't let prejudice, rumours, and one specious comparison cloud your judgment -- the US government and individuals are doing a tremendous amount and will continue to do so for the Haitians.

Sure, we are getting people out of there -- Americans and injured Haitians as well. So what? If left there, they become just one more group that burdens the aid. And how long, actually was the aid "held up?" Does anyone reliably know? 

I realise the US has a bad reputation, but it is capable of great goodness and it is doing that right now in Haiti.


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## José Herring (Jan 24, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*

Exactly John. It's easy to be critical but who was the first country to offer any meaningful aid to Haiti. It was the US. And, as far as I know there aren't many countries right now doing much. 

So lay off the America bashing already. We have problems but not nearly as bad as the rest of you all. At least this country has the resources and will to help people in Haiti. We've pledged more money, people and equipment than any other country by about 10 times.


America has pledged 100million dollars in aid to Haiti. The rest of the world combined has only reached the $38million mark. Hell, even John Travolta flew his plane in with doctors supplies and volunteers directly into Haiti. George Clooney and other celebs have pledged millions of dollars and have raised millions more. 

I think it's extremely bad spirited to undermine the amount of aid that we are giving to Haiti right now.

Jose


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 24, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*

I think the title of this thread is a bit incendiary and would gently suggest it be modified...


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 24, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*

Also, the thread was supposed to be about the SCOTUS decision, not Haiti.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 24, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*



Ned Bouhalassa @ Sun Jan 24 said:


> I think the title of this thread is a bit incendiary and would gently suggest it be modified...



I support that.


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## choc0thrax (Jan 24, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*



Guy Bacos @ Sat Jan 23 said:


> At least in America you have the freedom to complain about your government, such as a thread called: "Why I hate America".



Hmm, doesn't seem to be the case anymore. Haha.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 24, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*



choc0thrax @ Sun Jan 24 said:


> Guy Bacos @ Sat Jan 23 said:
> 
> 
> > At least in America you have the freedom to complain about your government, such as a thread called: "Why I hate America".
> ...



If you're talking about the change of title to this thread, I sincerely hope you're joking.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 24, 2010)

*Re: America upsets my positioning in the continuum of civilized prosperity and betterment of the human condition*

Childish response/comments from DK and Choco. :roll: I wonder sometimes why I even bother trying to moderate in this section.


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## theheresy (Jan 24, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*



hbuus @ Sun Jan 24 said:


> theheresy @ Sun Jan 24 said:
> 
> 
> > (...) then you can find places like Detroit that right now probably rival conditions in Haiti
> ...



I guess ignorance is bliss for you huh? Try this video and learn something before making uneducated responses http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hhJ_49leBw


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 24, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*



theheresy @ Sun Jan 24 said:


> hbuus @ Sun Jan 24 said:
> 
> 
> > theheresy @ Sun Jan 24 said:
> ...



Perhaps in normal times, if you are comparing with the worst places in Detroit, and even so, but nothing can compare to Haiti at this particular time.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 24, 2010)

*Re: America upsets my positioning in the continuum of civilized prosperity and betterment of the human condition*

Very stupid comparison. A messed up Detroit is still much, much better than current conditions in Haiti. No drinking water and food. Think about that. Even homeless people in Detroit can get a drinking fountain somewhere and beg for money for food, or go to places where there is free food.


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## José Herring (Jan 24, 2010)

*Re: America upsets my positioning in the continuum of civilized prosperity and betterment of the human condition*

I've been to Detroit. Pretty nice city.


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## The_Dark_Knight (Jan 24, 2010)

*Re: America upsets my positioning in the continuum of civilized prosperity and betterment of the human condition*

--


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## gsilbers (Jan 24, 2010)

*Re: Why I hate America*



Guy Bacos @ Sun Jan 24 said:


> theheresy @ Sun Jan 24 said:
> 
> 
> > hbuus @ Sun Jan 24 said:
> ...



yep, and you can also drive an hour from detroit and your good. in haiti.. dont haiti so.


also, that detroit as the rest of the civilized world.. they have things you wouldnt ever think to be w/o them. 
running water
easy access to potable water, sometimes IN THE RUNNING Water. (that u can drink out of the sink!! thats huge!! my guess only 10-15% of the world has this) 
personal security, as in you wont get kill going out in the streets. (although detroit is pretty f'uped in this one) and the "hiphop" culture is not helping either (around the world no only in the US)
no homeless dogs or dogs with rabies outside on the street. 
police that actually do their work and wont take money from you. 
the ability to buy anything or everything you need whenever you want (as long as u have the money of course) 
open and free market... as in there is 20 shappoos you can choose from 
(but interesting enough, in the US only 2 candidates for president.. i know i know about they get elected from many demo and rep parties and maybe a few independent wackos)
and stuff like it. 
in the US+Europe people take for granted this sort of things.. just be grateful that you where born there.. (or from other countries but have the money to be able to read this post


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## Freds (Jan 24, 2010)

*Re: America upsets my positioning in the continuum of civilized prosperity and betterment of the human condition*



theheresy @ Sun Jan 24 said:


> hbuus @ Sun Jan 24 said:
> 
> 
> > theheresy @ Sun Jan 24 said:
> ...



I just watched that video....

First of all you can't compare Detroit to Haiti. No idea why watching this video would make you think otherwise. Just read what other have said. Use common sense here...

Also, the video is an obvious attack to government protectionism. It's very naive and its the kind of information that a lot of ignorant people in America uses for basing their believes. It probably has the same audience as 9/11 conspiracy theorists, birthers, etc, etc...


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## chimuelo (Jan 24, 2010)

*Re: America upsets my positioning in the continuum of civilized prosperity and betterment of the human condition*

Slightly OT but did anyone catch Cindy Laupers' excellent performance.
She was a pop girl because of the money but she sang w/ Aretha Frankin and the AIDS concerts of the '80's and even Aretha had that " Dayamn Girl " look on her face.
She has so much control over the style and control of her voice.
I haven't seen her sing for ages but she got up there w/ ZERO reverbs and Delays,etc. and sang Time After Time with a Cellist too, and it was awesome to hear.
She hasn't lost a step thje olg gal...... o-[][]-o
Many excellent performance on Sessions for the Haitian cause.
So far no lame sequencer lip sync jive, then again these singers aren't the aerobic types.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Jan 24, 2010)

*Re: America upsets my positioning in the continuum of civilized prosperity and betterment of the human condition*



> Some have communism. We have commercialism. YOU MUST SUBMIT for success. You must not speak out or stand up, for success.



Could you please clarify what your saying here?



> We have a complete society addicted to hard drugs just to show up to work.



You've got to be joking.



> We have no support for health, but are made to compete like slaves against one another for food money and roof.



You talk as if we have no options for health care. Out of curiosity, do you HAVE health care? If you do be lucky you have it, because those of us with pre-existing conditions don't get it as we are denied coverage. (unless the health care bill starts happening)



> The people running this place, don't give a hoot about this place...they're already building their new homes in Dubai and such.



I'm not even sure what to say about this.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 24, 2010)

*Re: America upsets my positioning in the continuum of civilized prosperity and betterment of the human condition*

Another wasteful thread, with some people speaking out of their butts just to stir up some crap. I'm out of here. ~o)


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## mikebarry (Jan 24, 2010)

*Re: America upsets my positioning in the continuum of civilized prosperity and betterment of the human condition*

I wish there was an ignore thread button here. 

What a waste of kb's - keep this crap to yourself. If you hate US leave or shut up.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 24, 2010)

This thread was destined to self-destruct.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Jan 24, 2010)

Why does a mod come by, say the thread is useless, and not lock it?


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## NYC Composer (Jan 24, 2010)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Sun Jan 24 said:


> Why does a mod come by, say the thread is useless, and not lock it?



I disagree with that statement quite strongly. The freedom of speech in this forum is one of its prime strengths, and anyone is free not to read the words posted in any section of it.
If the only way to feel comfortable in a forum situation is to have a mommy or daddy telling one what one can or cannot read, one doesn't need a moderator, one needs to learn to moderate one's self.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Jan 24, 2010)

No, threads need mods, that's why they are there. This thread went from a responsible discussion to something else.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 24, 2010)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Mon Jan 25 said:


> No, threads need mods, that's why they are there. This thread went from a responsible discussion to something else.



We disagree.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Jan 24, 2010)

Doesn't matter anyway, looks like there are special assigned mods for this one.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 24, 2010)

Ned isn't a moderator of the OT section. I am, however, and I haven't seen anything that warrants my stepping in.

If people want to say they hate America, so what.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 24, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Jan 25 said:


> Ned isn't a moderator of the OT section. I am, however, and I haven't seen anything that warrants my stepping in.
> 
> If people want to say they hate America, so what.



Nick, just out of curiousity,what would?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 24, 2010)

Obviously threatening or insulting other members would be a criminal offense, and general offensiveness wouldn't be cool. But I haven't thought about what would warrant stepping in. I think we'd all know when moderation was required when we saw it.

You can always report offensive posts that cross "the line."

So far the only time I stepped in was when there was with this weird guy (I forget his name) who argued every single word you posted whether or not he agreed with you. He was just annoying and disruptive, and he contributed nothing - and he wasn't even a musician.

I'd forgotten all about that.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 24, 2010)

There ya go.


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## José Herring (Jan 24, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Jan 24 said:


> - and he wasn't even a musician.



That's enough to ban him right there.


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## nikolas (Jan 24, 2010)

I'm also a mod in this forum and I haven't seen anything that warrants a locked thread or whatever. In fact I rarely see anything that calls for my special 'mod powers' around here! :D 

What DOES bother me is that The_Dark_Night just deleted all his posts, which makes everyone else look that they are fools talking to a wall or something. Definately not cool in my books!


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## bryla (Jan 25, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Jan 25 said:


> So far the only time I stepped in was when there was with this weird guy (I forget his name) who argued every single word you posted whether or not he agreed with you. He was just annoying and disruptive, and he contributed nothing - and he wasn't even a musician.
> 
> I'd forgotten all about that.


Did anyone say aenas?


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 25, 2010)

Why is there a discussion about locking this thread? I don't see any of the mods comments talking about that.


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## choc0thrax (Jan 25, 2010)

nikolas @ Mon Jan 25 said:


> What DOES bother me is that The_Dark_Night just deleted all his posts, which makes everyone else look that they are fools talking to a wall or something. Definately not cool in my books!



Not really. As long as people quote him while responding, his posts are captured forever in the quotes.


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## nikolas (Jan 25, 2010)

Of course choko, only that the beginning of the thread and the whole 1st page has no such instance and his 3 posts have been deleted and I have absolutely no idea how on earth I would be able to tell what he said without his posts... Bad and rude tactic, as I said, in my books.


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## choc0thrax (Jan 25, 2010)

You know, I guess that is pretty rude of him. I guess I can't hate on him because of his earlier comment:



The_Dark_Knight @ Thu Jul 21 said:


> choco is the best. He is a handsome and caring man.


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## theheresy (Jan 25, 2010)

I would just like to make a minor correction to everyone here. The mods HAVE stepped in. They just do so quite furtively as to have the effect of laissez-faire policy.

But after my one comment yesterday I in fact was summarily muzzled and could no longer post for the remainder of the day having had a restriction immediately put on my posting abilities. 

So much for 'freedom of speech' "we're big boys we don't need to be moderated here" etc etc, not entirely accurate folks. 

Anyway, just want to say hi to everyone before I'm inevitably re-muzzled and/or this post deleted. o-[][]-o


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Jan 25, 2010)

Let's switch to bashing Europe! :D


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## Ed (Jan 25, 2010)

Emanuel @ Mon Jan 25 said:


> Let's switch to bashing Europe! :D



There are only two things I hate: racism, and the Dutch


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## Dave Connor (Jan 25, 2010)

theheresy @ Mon Jan 25 said:


> es.
> 
> So much for 'freedom of speech' "we're big boys we don't need to be moderated here" etc etc, not entirely accurate folks.



Free speech should in fact trump all in society at large. As you can see you are chaffing at the slightest restriction even on this humble little blog. The Supreme Court ruled (narrowly) that this whole campaign finance issue is indeed a speech issue. Right or wrong I would rather have flag burnings etc., and free speech than any restrictions.

However! Our elections have been bought and sold for so long that there must be a constitutional provision to completely end ALL possibility of buying elections. The American people must be *free* from any manipulation of the election process. Also, I think the two party system means all the special interests split each dollar in half so we need a legitimate independent party at the very least.

Perhaps an amendment that takes federal tax dollars and distributes them evenly among candidates. Something to remove all the puppet strings so prevalent in US politics.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Jan 25, 2010)

Ed @ Mon Jan 25 said:


> Emanuel @ Mon Jan 25 said:
> 
> 
> > Let's switch to bashing Europe! :D
> ...


Ah, I am so glad to live in such a tolerant country 

We still need to get rid of this Wilders guy who is still running very well in the polls... :-(

Can we again send him over to the UK? This time, don't send him back but lock him at the Tower, please.


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## nikolas (Jan 25, 2010)

theheresy @ Mon Jan 25 said:


> I would just like to make a minor correction to everyone here. The mods HAVE stepped in. They just do so quite furtively as to have the effect of laissez-faire policy.
> 
> But after my one comment yesterday I in fact was summarily muzzled and could no longer post for the remainder of the day having had a restriction immediately put on my posting abilities.
> 
> ...


Well, for your information in my short time as a mod here and a long time a member here supporting VI, I've never seen any evidence of shushing the 'freedom of speech' (which either way is overated in any Internet forum).

I would strongly suggest you find the reasons why the restriction was put in the first place in your self, your posts and your apparent attitude, rather than pointing fingers and throwing innuendos all around.

And, btw, I've never excersized any of my mod rights, exept to resize a pic and to change a thread title (now gone to a non public part of the forum).


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 25, 2010)

"Did anyone say aenas?"

That's possible.


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## José Herring (Jan 25, 2010)

This thread is like seeing an accident on the LA freeways. No matter how many times I say I'm not going to look. I never fail in the final moments to take a quick peak.

I think its time for the cops to come and clear it up.


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## Ashermusic (Jan 25, 2010)

theheresy @ Mon Jan 25 said:


> I would just like to make a minor correction to everyone here. The mods HAVE stepped in. They just do so quite furtively as to have the effect of laissez-faire policy.
> 
> But after my one comment yesterday I in fact was summarily muzzled and could no longer post for the remainder of the day having had a restriction immediately put on my posting abilities.
> 
> ...



There is a difference between liberty and license and many of you confuse the two.

Over-moderating and under-moderating are flip sides of the same coin and equally as wrong. Which is why I no longer, with rare exceptions, post here.


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## _taylor (Jan 25, 2010)

theheresy @ Mon Jan 25 said:


> The funniest part of the thread is that people enter a thread entitled "I hate America" and yet act flabbergasted when they experience volatile discussions and heated opinions. What did you expect folks? If you can't handle it then you shouldn't enter any threads with such a title. That's like turning on a porn channel then being outraged that you saw a female genitalia. LOL! :roll:
> 
> Come on now folks, don't you realize these threads are not to be taken seriously?




aww the voice of a reasonable troll.. so logical.. duh guys.

o-[][]-o


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## Niah (Jan 25, 2010)

But this thread wasn't even titled "I hate America". It was "This is why I hate America".

The discussion was not a bashing of the USA but rather about a very particular issue.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 25, 2010)

> But after my one comment yesterday I in fact was summarily muzzled and could no longer post for the remainder of the day having had a restriction immediately put on my posting abilities.



FWIW this is the first I've heard of it. I had nothing to do with that and didn't even know it happened, let alone why it happened.

And by the way I don't think theheresy is trolling, I think he's working his opinions strongly.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 25, 2010)

I'm with the esteemed Mr. Connor - public financing of elections.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 25, 2010)

> Over-moderating and under-moderating are flip sides of the same coin and equally as wrong. Which is why I no longer, with rare exceptions, post here.



rat-ta-ta-ta-tat-tat

IP banned.

(Seriously, do you think this thread requires moderation? If so I'm not sure which post or posts you're talking about.)


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## bryla (Jan 25, 2010)

theheresy: Maybe the board logged you off. That sometimes happen to me. Just log in again


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 25, 2010)

That could well be what happened. I just had to log in again before this visit, as a matter of fact.

In this case it was because I turned off cookies and reset my browser before and after checking whether a link in an email was legitimate. It turned out to be phishing as I suspected, and then VI-C didn't see the file that keeps me logged in (presumably its cookie).


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## Dave Connor (Jan 25, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Jan 25 said:


> I'm with the esteemed Mr. Connor - public financing of elections.



Amen Brother! Long overdue. And let's have a wider net and stop excluding people from running just because they're not career politicians.


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## George Caplan (Jan 25, 2010)

Howard Dean came on british tv tonight so I thought I would watch it.

Interesting. He blames Wall St for the financial shambles and to his credit the SEC was in there somewhere too. 

Never once mentioned Greenspan by name.


----------

