# More Samples? Or More Mixing Tools?



## Frederick Russ (Nov 25, 2004)

Hi everybody,

I've been having this inner debate so its now spilling out into my public life: are more samples better or more mixing tools?

Currently I have VSL First Edition, SAM Solo Sessions, QLSO Gold & Silver, Galaxy Steinway, White Grand, StormDrum, DrumKit from Hell2, Spectrasonics Atmosphere and Trilogy (Planning to get RMX)

The only third party plug-in I have is Altiverb which I really like and overall adds a really great touch to the mixes. However, I'm relying upon native Logic plugs for compression, eq and "limiting" - the Logic limiter is ... well, at least I don't like it 

I had this conversation with a couple of buddies online. Since I have a Mac G5 Dual I've been looking really intently on the TC Electronic Powercore Element (PCI Version) and the Sony Oxford Suite (w/EQ, Dynamics, Inflator). Some seem to suggest just going with more libraries ( SISS, Project SAM, VSL Epic Horns, etc) while others seem to lean toward production concerns (EQ, Compression, Limiting, etc)

What do you think - more sample libraries and firewire hard drives to house them or get the TC Powercore and get more sparkle with what I already have :?:


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## Marsdy (Nov 25, 2004)

Hi Frederick.

As an alternative to the Powercore, the Waves Musician II bundle is pretty good and I think there were some good deals on it recently. The Ren compressor is certainly a lot better than the Logic comp. You could always try the Blockfish comp which is free and a lot of fun but a bit funky in Logic 7
http://www.digitalfishphones.com/main.p ... &subItem=5 

I had a Powercore for a while but I didn't like the way you had to use large buffer sizes to keep CPU usage down in Logic. I use a lot of live inputs in Logic though as I'm mixerless but it's something to consider. Also Logic doesn't have plug-in delay compensation on the buses so if you use Powercore effects on busses you'll need to manually compensate which can be a pain in the butt. There are some great included plug-ins though.


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## Frederick Russ (Nov 25, 2004)

Thanks Dave. Craig mentioned to me about the buffer problem but I didn't realize it was that pronounced. That's a real problem. I've steered away from the UAD because of problems I've heard of in relation to the Mac startup process which somehow seems to miss the UAD and not see it plus conflicts with other cards in the PCI bus.

Perhaps looking into native solutions from 3rd party folks like Waves might do it. Thanks again for the input.

Anybody else?


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## Dr.Quest (Nov 25, 2004)

Marsdy said:


> I had a Powercore for a while but I didn't like the way you had to use large buffer sizes to keep CPU usage down in Logic. I use a lot of live inputs in Logic though as I'm mixerless but it's something to consider. Also Logic doesn't have plug-in delay compensation on the buses so if you use Powercore effects on busses you'll need to manually compensate which can be a pain in the butt. There are some great included plug-ins though.



I'm puzzled by this in as much as I thought the reason to get a Powercore Card was to put process power on the card i.e. take the load off the CPU. The Wave stuff is great but they are CPU hungry. That's a shame about the Powercore. I was eying the Element at $375 as a good deal.
J :cry:


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## Frederick Russ (Nov 25, 2004)

Hi Doc, this may be an issue with Logic (of having to increase the buffer size to compensate for the CPU hit) - I don't know if other sequencers need to do this. 

Alternately, Hans Zimmer uses the PowerCore FireWire (roughly twice the processing power and 4 times the memory as the PowerCore Element PCI Card) with his G5. I wouldn't think that he would be using something that would be such a pain to use, but I don't know for sure.

Waves gives my version of Logic problems. Before I installed the Waves Demo I never had many crashes - now I have them 2-3 times a day. Might be memory problems but I'm not sure.


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## Frederick Russ (Nov 25, 2004)

Hey Doc - I found this on TC Electronics site:

http://tcsupport.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/tcsupport.cfg/php/enduser/std_alp.php?p_page=1&p_prod_lvl1=2&p_prod_lvl2=111&p_cat_lvl1=&p_cat_lvl2=&p_search_text=&p_new_search=1&p_search_type=search_nl (TC Support Interactive)


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## Frederick Russ (Nov 25, 2004)

Regarding TC Powercore Latency & Logic:



TC Help Interactive said:


> Latency with TC PowerCore 1.6.x and Logic Audio
> ?
> Question
> ?
> ...


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## Marsdy (Nov 25, 2004)

There are known problems with Waves in L7. There is a beta that is passing AU validation I think but that doesn't apply to the demo. Apart from the Masters plug-ins and maybe the Ren verb, most of the Waves plug-ins don't stretch the CPU on a G5. The Waves Masters are fantastic though.

Last time I tried the Powercore with DP, the Mac was running out of CPU before the Powercore! :shock: This was using only Powercore plug-ins.

There's info here for setting up the Powercore in L7...
http://www.tcelectronic.com/Default.asp?Id=1900 Buffers this high are obviously hopeless for softsynths/live inputs. 

The lack of delay compensation on Logic busses can be worked around. The Power comes with a compensation plug-in which you insert on tracks that don't have PC effects. It delays those tracks by the same amount of delay the TC plug-ins introduce. On the face of it, you'd need one on every track apart from those using PC plug-ins.

However, it's better to route every track not using PC plugs to a bus and insert the TC compensation plug-in on that bus. Again this is an issue if you are playing softsynths along with your track or using live inputs which I was doing. Consequently the Powercore soon made me loose the will to live which is a shame because there are some great plug ins for it.


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## fv (Nov 25, 2004)

Hi Frederick,



Frederick said:


> Waves gives my version of Logic problems. Before I installed the Waves Demo I never had many crashes - now I have them 2-3 times a day. Might be memory problems but I'm not sure.



Do you get these crashes while using Waves plugs? I know that there has been an issue with using the scrollbars in Logic with Waves plugs. AFAIK, Waves has a new update but I do not know if this also includes their demo versions.

Personally, I think Waves now is becoming less of a necessity than it used to be. Surprisingly, many of the Logic plugins sound very good, but you're right that some have been alternatives in 3rd party offerings. 

The Powercore and UAD plugs are excellent IMHO. If you were getting a Powercore and not investing in the Sony Oxford plugs, then, I think that you're missing out on one of the biggest reasons to get a Powercore. The UAD has some excellent sounding comps and limiters. I find that the Precision Limiter is better than the Waves L2, particularly in the low end. While they are both transparent (unless you over-do it and squash everything into a flat line), PL sounds better to me.

The latency thing can be a nuisance. However, I don't use the UAD (don't own a Powercore yet) when writing or recording. I use it strictly as a mixing tool and I am very happy with it. 

HTH,
FV


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## fv (Nov 25, 2004)

Hi,



Marsdy said:


> The lack of delay compensation on Logic busses can be worked around. The Power comes with a compensation plug-in which you insert on tracks that don't have PC effects. It delays those tracks by the same amount of delay the TC plug-ins introduce. On the face of it, you'd need one on every track apart from those using PC plug-ins.



Unless I'm reading this wrong, this is slightly incorrect. Logic *does* have latency compensation on arrange tracks (ie on inserts). It does *not* have latency compensation on busses or auxes. 

Let's take a simple arrangement as an example. You have 3 tracks. Track 1 is a stereo drum track, track 2 is bass, and track 3 is guitar. On track 1 you've inserted a Powercore or UAD compressor on it. There are no insert fx on tracks 2 or 3. Logic will play these back perfectly in time since it automatically compensates for the delay introduced by the plugin.

Another scenario would have Track 1's drums routed to bus 1 while tracks 2 and 3 were routed to bus 2. None of the tracks have plugins inserted on them but Bus 1 has that same compressor inserted for the drums. Now, the drums will be lagging substantially behind the guitar and bass. Put the compensation plugin on the insert to bus 2 and all is well again.

Apologies Dave if I misunderstood you. Hope that this makes things clearer Frederick.

FV


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## Frederick Russ (Nov 25, 2004)

Thanks for comments! This is helping...

Fv, so if I'm reading you right perhaps the way to do this is to NOT use powercore live, but during the mix stage? If that's the case there still may be hope...


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## Dr.Quest (Nov 25, 2004)

Certainly food for thought here and a very good use of this forum. Going back to the original question...if I had the libraries you have Frederick, I think I would try uping the equipment options as well. There are some great Plugs besides Waves. I love the PSPaudio Warmer for final mixes. Can't do without it really.
Currently I am struggling with the Group Gold buy. It seems like such a good deal and I have the cash but I really wanted Epic horns as my next buy. A puzzle for sure.
J


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## Marsdy (Nov 25, 2004)

fv said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



FV 

What you say is all correct for both scenarios.

What I meant was if you had say the drums routed to a bus and then inserted say a TC compresser over the bus, the drums would be late in relation to arrange tracks that DON'T have PC plug-ins on them. These need to be delayed (using the compensation plug-in TC provide) to line them up with the bus. As I mentioned, the best way to do this is to route tracks that don't have a Powercore plug-ins to another bus and delay that bus so it lines up which is what you are saying in your second example. I would imagine this would apply to the UAD card also.

Frederick
Yes you could use the TC at mixdown providing you don't have any live inputs like outboard effects returns or say Giga PCs running live wth the mix.


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## Frederick Russ (Nov 25, 2004)

Thanks guys. Dave, so do you mean I would have to render my sample mixes into recordings first - then enable powercore outs? (A lot of these would be EXS24MkII instances and some VisionDAW PC inputs). Sorry if I'm making you belabor the point!

Hey Doc - man I love QLSO Gold, but there is something very special about Epic Horns. If that's what you wanted originally, then I say go with it. (I have a resource for a great price for QLSO if you want to hold off - if interested just pm me.)


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## Marsdy (Nov 25, 2004)

Frederick said:


> Thanks guys. Dave, so do you mean I would have to render my sample mixes into recordings first - then enable powercore outs? (A lot of these would be EXS24MkII instances and some VisionDAW PC inputs). Sorry if I'm making you belabor the point!



The EXS24 instances you would route to a bus and apply delay compensation so you wouldn't need to render those. You WOULD have to render the output of the PC. As I said, it can get to be a pain in the butt so you REALLY need to like those Powercore plug-ins.


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## Frederick Russ (Nov 25, 2004)

Thanks again Dave. Regarding the PC outs, heck I'm used to that anyway in order to render a mix to mp3, for instance. Applying delay compensation - I'm trying to visualize how that would go..

I've heard so many good things about the Sony Oxford suite that makes this almost seem worthwhile. Is it?


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## Simon Ravn (Nov 25, 2004)

As long as you only use plugins on audio tracks, you don't have to worro about delay compensation. Only if you start using busses.


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## fv (Nov 25, 2004)

Hi,




Marsdy said:


> What I meant was if you had say the drums routed to a bus and then inserted say a TC compresser over the bus, the drums would be late in relation to arrange tracks that DON'T have PC plug-ins on them. [chop]



I understand what you meant now. Thanks.

@Frederick: I think that you have got the picture now so I won't add much. I would say that it isn't so much in regards to avoiding LIVE at all costs. As long as you are only using the PCore or UAD plugs on tracks and not busses, you're usually okay.

IMHO, these plugs are so good that I'm willing to deal with this limitation while using Logic. I have a UAD currently and will be getting a PCore with the Sony plugs at some point. 

FV


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## Frederick Russ (Nov 25, 2004)

Thanks Simon!

Fv, I think we're thinking along the same lines - Sony Oxford may be worth the headaches. *Goes off to muse a bit to weigh it all out*


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## TheoKrueger (Nov 25, 2004)

I'd personally go for the samples ! The more the better 

Sample quality and "out of the box" productions have become so good nowadays, that even without any tweaks ( or only few like a touch of reverb ) you can get a profiessional sound while a few years back that was just a dream

I think that many times we forget the audience we target music to. As we are in these musicians communitites so much, we want our music to sound good to other musicians mostly while it was never the goal before. People can enjoy music without super-incredible productions ( just a thought)


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## Dr.Quest (Nov 26, 2004)

TheoKrueger said:


> I think that many times we forget the audience we target music to. As we are in these musicians communitites so much, we want our music to sound good to other musicians mostly while it was never the goal before. People can enjoy music without super-incredible productions ( just a thought)



This isn't exactly true. Many of us, Frederick included have paying clients and it is necessary to sound good to THEM. It's not just about pleasing other muscians if you are doing a mix for a picky client and you need all the help you can get in many cases. The good sounding libraries do help sounding good right away though. And take a look at Fredericks library list...it's a great collection. Sometimes I think too many samples can get in the way of creating and writting music because there are just too many options. A good library like Gold and SAM horns would let you work quickly if you have many cues to write.
Just food for thought.
J


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## TheoKrueger (Nov 26, 2004)

You are right on the paying clients Doc , it didn't pass my mind ! ( I haven't done anything for a client yet so i can't really talk on that anymore  )

You are also right on the "too many options/samples" , they can get in the way if you have too many choices on a single instrument ( too many Trumpets from different libraries for example ) .
I think it's good though to have a huge pallete of instruments in different genres ( ethnic, orchestral, synth etc ) so whenever you need something it's available.


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## Dr.Quest (Nov 26, 2004)

TheoKrueger said:


> I think it's good though to have a huge pallete of instruments in different genres ( ethnic, orchestral, synth etc ) so whenever you need something it's available.



Yes, this is true. Especially if you are trying to do something that is a little different from the norm. For me something like Glass and Stones would be perfect because I love tossing odd tonalities into the mix. and while I'm not really an orchestral writer I do love having an orchestral pallet to call on. The library choices today are simply amazing, mind-boggling really what can be done in the studio. It raises the bar though of what clients expect to hear when you play a first draft for them.
J


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## Frederick Russ (Nov 26, 2004)

I suppose my musings regarding the inner debate "More Samples or More Mixing Tools" was prompted by some of the incredible midi mockups by Craig Sharmat, Simon Ravn, Thomas J, Andy B and others. If I'm not mistaken I do believe I heard that Simon uses Cambridge EQ on many of the samples channels, for instance - Craig used to use Waves on his mixes. Also, Hans Zimmer used the Powercore Firewire & Sony Oxford Plugs on King Arthur, and even Andy B mentioned using outboard processing to give some sparkle to his mixes. 

All in all I'm looking to better my mixes. With each sample library I introduce into the fold there are eq problems and how these blend in with other libraries. Although I think the plugs in Logic are good, there are many instances where they seem fairly inadequate to achieve the sound I'm looking for. Since I'm chugging my Mac G5 to the max with EXS24 instances and Audio Ease Altiverb third party native, I wasn't satisfied to leave well enough alone - the logic limiter not only distorts but it seems to alter the eq with each setting. The compressor pumps likes its hyperventilating - lower settings indicate that it might as well not even be used. The multipressor isn't bad, but I've heard better.

Thanks for all the help and comments! This really helps...


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## CJ (Nov 26, 2004)

Personally I like the UAD compressors and limiters but if you're on Mac G5 I can see why you're headed in the direction of the TCPC. Just remember that there aren't many Silver Bullet solutions - each separate third party device you introduce into the mix has its own set of quirky things to add to the headache list - but you already knew that


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## Simon Ravn (Nov 26, 2004)

Frederick said:


> I suppose my musings regarding the inner debate "More Samples or More Mixing Tools" was prompted by some of the incredible midi mockups by Craig Sharmat, Simon Ravn, Thomas J, Andy B and others. If I'm not mistaken I do believe I heard that Simon uses Cambridge EQ on many of the samples channels, for instance - Craig used to use Waves on his mixes. Also, Hans Zimmer used the Powercore Firewire & Sony Oxford Plugs on King Arthur, and even Andy B mentioned using outboard processing to give some sparkle to his mixes.



Actually I use my UAD-1 as "everybody else" - on recorded audio tracks. I can't use them on live inputs - would cause too much latency. So when I do my mixdown I do a little EQ'ing to the different sections. Not an instrument-to-instrument basis. That would be total overkill and take way too long to finish a piece that way I use Cambridge yes, but that's just because I liked the idea of a card like the UAD-1. I guess I could just as well use Waves and achieve more or less the same results. The Pultec Pro is an EQ that adds some character though - but I really don't use it much (yet). I am sure the Oxford for Powercore is great as well.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 28, 2004)

Yo Mr. Frederick, what is it you don't like about the sound you're getting from the Logic comp? I'm not trying to sell it to you, just trying to figure out whether there's an Answer Within.


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## Frederick Russ (Nov 28, 2004)

Hey Dr Nick,

(Lays on the psych couch) .... 

Before I sold my G4 (the one that had the UAD card in it) I got quite spoiled with the cool plugs in it, including the LA-2A and 1176 modeling comps. Back then the UAD was behind the 8 ball (no OS X version, voltage mismatch for the G5) so I decided to let it go. Hasn't been a day that's gone by where I didn't miss it however - perhaps going with the Powercore is my psyche's way to fill in the blanks left over from severe UAD withdrawals? :wink: 

Maybe its the idea of adding the same essential software found in the Sony Oxford plug-ins as the old SSL console team used on the Sony OXFR3 console project for about $1 million less may have something to do with it? 

SONY OXFR3 CONSOLE


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 29, 2004)

Uh huh. And I have a knob from that console that I keep in my shorts. 

Now stop ignoring my question, you pervert: what don't you like about the Logic compressor's sound?

:roll: :twisted:


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## Frederick Russ (Nov 29, 2004)

I have 6.3.3 without a mixing degree - for me it was easier to work with UAD compressors - I admit perhaps its just me but its really easy for me to get distortion with the native comps which I didn't have using the UAD. If you can do it with Logic, that's great too - I haven't personally.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 29, 2004)

I'm not saying I can - I use Waves, etc. - but I'm curious how the Logic one sounds bad. If you can tell me, maybe I can suggest a way of making it sound better. Sometimes you can do things like using two compressors with different settings, using the sidechain to change the way they react, etc.

Or maybe not! I haven't actually used the one in Logic.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 29, 2004)

I just re-read your post where you say it distorts. The answer to that is just to slow down the release.


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## Frederick Russ (Nov 29, 2004)

Ok I'll try that. Who knows? I might save some money if I learn how to use what I already have! :?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 30, 2004)

That's all. I'm not trying to bust your chops!


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Nov 30, 2004)

Frederick,

Have you tried PSP's stuff? I really like their compressor. And Logic Channel EQ is pretty pro-sounding to me.


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## Frederick Russ (Nov 30, 2004)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> That's all. I'm not trying to bust your chops!



Are to are to! *goes into a closet to pout*

Actually I like the Channel EQ in Logic - very useful and seems to be kind to the CPU.

So - should I spring for the Powercore?


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## Dr.Quest (Nov 30, 2004)

Ned Bouhalassa said:


> Frederick,
> 
> Have you tried PSP's stuff? I really like their compressor.



Yes, this is a brilliant compressor (the Vintage Warmer). Can't do without it. Their Saturator is very nice as well.
recommended!
J


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Nov 30, 2004)

Jamie,

Vintage Warmer *is* great, but it does colour the sound quite a bit, which is terrific, as long as that's what you need. I was actually thinking of their MixPressor, which I find quite transparent.


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## TeamLeader (Nov 30, 2004)

We agree with Ned. The PSP stuff is wonderful. Attitude or character if you want it. We love MixPack, VintageWarmer, and DelayPack. Wouldnt wanna work without them. (Or Waves and AudioEase stuff either.)

Regards,
DLevy
mgr, Legacy Lab


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## Scott Cairns (Nov 30, 2004)

Hey Frederick, well you know my thoughts on the Poco card. No regrets here except for the card occassionally no being recognised upon booting up. Since switching to a slow boot mode, the card had initialised every time without fail for around the last three weeks.

Depending on your future requirements, this card has a really decent amp modellor, you can buy Access Virus to run off it and of course, your fav Sony plugins.  (no I dont work for the company!)


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