# $99 Orchestra – Main theme of upcoming game



## MacTomBie (Jan 31, 2016)

Hi, I’m an indie game developer (and an amateur composer, but this is not relevant to this post) and I’ve been a lurker on this forum for quite some time. Here I learned about $99 Orchestra Kickstarter campaign, and we went for it with our main game theme, so I thought it might be cool to share our results.

Disclaimer - the theme was composed for us by Paweł Błaszczak. I just did the mixing of the two orchestras (sampled and live) and some post-processing. Sadly my composing skills were too rusty for this job and lately I have to focus on programming as the project we are making is quite big for a small indie team.

Anyway, I’ve written a longer post about the entire process and the experience we had with the $99 orchestra on our blog, and you can find it here: http://thingtrunk.com/r2g-music-theme-live-orchestra-on-an-indie-budget/

But if you just want to hear the input and output, here it is. This is the sampled version of the theme (no percussion):



This is the orchestra recording (best of 5 takes, with some EQ, reverb, removed some clicks, etc):



This is the final result (sampled version, subtly layered with the live orchestra. Beginning is 80% samples, repeat of the main motive is 50/50, the live orchestra is most prominent in the middle section with soaring strings):



And here is the final mix with percussion:



We were a bit disappointed at first, especially when we heard the first try 



But in the end it didn’t turn out so bad in my opinion. The layering is very subtle, as the sound of the orchestra is much smaller than the one we needed and had with the sampled version, and there are some intonation problems, but I think that nevertheless it adds a bit of depth and life to the piece.

So, what do you think?


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## willbedford (Jan 31, 2016)

To be honest, I prefer the sampled version! The final mix sounds good too, but the live orchestra doesn't seem to add much that wasn't already there in the samples. If anything, the intonation of the live recording seems to clash with the samples.
I don't really like the sound of the live version at all. It has very a distant and boxy sound. Personally, I would have spent the $400 on some better samples.

You might also want to check that you're allowed to use the recording in your game. Last time I checked, the $99 rate was only for demo recordings. You had to pay an additional fee to use it commercially.


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## eqcollector (Jan 31, 2016)

I agree with Will, but personally, I really like the master mix with whole orchestra too. It really gives the flavor of realism and expression, all in all, great work!


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## MacTomBie (Jan 31, 2016)

The sampled version was very good in the first place in my opinion, so I’m not surprised that someone might like it better. But just like eqcollector we find the mix a bit more lively and expressive, if not as perfect and smooth as the sampled one.



> You might also want to check that you're allowed to use the recording in your game. Last time I checked, the $99 rate was only for demo recordings. You had to pay an additional fee to use it commercially.



We have explicitly talked to André about it, and we were told we could use it in the game. I’m not sure if it’s standard with $99 Orchestra, or it was a special deal we got for being one of the first backers in the second campaign though.


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## bjderganc (Jan 31, 2016)

Great work! I was fairly skeptical of how well the orchestra would perform with those parts in such a short rehearsal/recording, but they did very well! 

One criticism: something seems a little cloudy about the quality of the live recording. Maybe something in mics or preamps that they used? 

In any event, awesome work! Your players will appreciate your attention to detail!


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## MacTomBie (Jan 31, 2016)

> Great work! I was fairly skeptical of how well the orchestra would perform with those parts in such a short rehearsal/recording, but they did very well!
> 
> One criticism: something seems a little cloudy about the quality of the live recording. Maybe something in mics or preamps that they used?
> 
> In any event, awesome work! Your players will appreciate your attention to detail!



Thanks! About the cloudy quality of the life recording, I think I know what you mean. I tried to correct it with EQ (and also make it better complement the sampled version), but I'm sure someone more skilled would do it better. Here is the orchestra before EQ and reverb (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6631277/orch_raw.mp3). It's not the raw take as it is actually two takes joined (the ending was recorded separately). Also I had to do a pitch shift because we agreed they record the piece in D minor, as original E-flat minor is very difficult to read.


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## bjderganc (Jan 31, 2016)

Ah! Well, judging from the dry recording, I think that the effects processing could definitely be improved upon, especially if you have stems from the live orchestra session. It might be diminishing returns at this point, especially since the hybrid version sounds pretty nice already


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## MA-Simon (Jan 31, 2016)

I like the recorded Version, but its not hard to hear why you would have to pick the sampled version. Imho the playing in teh recording is fine (Except that ending flourish), but the sound... its so thin and metallic. Also a lot of noise filtering going on at the end. Is that the original that you recived??
Did you get only the final mix, or individual mics too?


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## MacTomBie (Feb 1, 2016)

The file uploaded to dropbox in my previous reply has no sound alterations (only pitch change and normalization), so this is basically how it sounded out of the box. We did receive individual mic recordings, but I didn't find them to bring anything that would warrant the extra time spent working on them. The sonic quality was basically the same and there was a LOT of mic bleeding from the other parts. On some parts, I could easily hear the metronome click (I guess the musicians who weren't playing would leave their headphones on the chairs with the click still on). Also, the session file was in Protools (which I don't have access to) so again it would mean much more time spent (which I didn't have as my main job is programming )


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## tokatila (Feb 1, 2016)

The recorded version is quite terrible by itself; but I think it adds a nice touch when layered. Sorry to hear about the metronome clicking; sounds very unprofessional to me. I guess you get what you pay for.


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## YuHirà (Feb 1, 2016)

It's very kind of you to share the process with us!

This experience sounds very interesting because it reveals in my opinion that it's sometimes a better choice to spend more in order to be sure the orchestra is good. 99 dollars orchestra charges 849 euros 1 hour. A few orchestras of the Eastern Europe, who are far better, are almost the same price without the VAT, for a bigger orchestra - if you avoid the companies who serve as a go-between of course  (if you want some details, feel free to send me a MP)

I have to confess that when I heard about this orchestra for the first time, I was a bit surprised because I think it's very hard to record something new every 7 minutes... Each composer has his own style; the orchestra has to get used to it and it demands extra time.


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## WhiteNoiz (Feb 1, 2016)

Your version made me kind of sad, so I called upon the spirits of the forest for help. They imbued the raw version with some of their magic but it only can do so much. They did their best though and shared a couple of their thoughts before departing out to the green pastures and the woods.

I caught these two phrases echoing in the wind just before they disappeared:
_"The sections and volumes are unbalanced. You need more violins and the woodwinds are too forward..."_

Anyway, they dropped a little pouch with a USB that contained their version. Here it is:
https://mega.nz/#!AUJyETYJ!f3H0lhybH3BIqqnM7mNeKDZAvDPaOshkgRIlAhnZzsQ


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## NoamL (Feb 1, 2016)

I had a piece recorded with the first $99 kickstarter, but I didn't end up using the recording due to problems similar to yours including click bleed and intonation issues. I think your result is typical for the project. In the first run of the project they had booked over *64 hours* *of studio time* with almost 300 backers. Even though they spread it over 2 months it's still 64 hours of straight sightreading and recording. Just the huge # of backers alone, created issues because many amateurs wrote badly notated or nonidiomatic music that exhausted & frustrated the musicians. They also had problems getting the composers to be awake at the right time Lisbon-time to hear the streams & provide feedback, and essentially reverted to doing everything on autopilot, although that might have been fixed in the 2nd KS. 

On top of that there's all the miscommunication & delivery issues associated with a typical KS project.

In short, I think the project is interesting and useful for music students and beginning composers/orchestrators to test ideas, but the KS overpromised how useful the results would be for professional projects.

I think your project shows the importance of having a *dedicated synthestrator* on board especially for indie videogame projects such as yours. You have not a large _amount_ of music, but it's going to be heard often because it's the title screen. I think a lot more liveliness is possible in your samples. If you don't mind, perhaps I'll take a quick gander at it this evening to distract myself from the Iowa caucus...


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## WhiteNoiz (Feb 1, 2016)

OK, after spending some time with it, now I'm happy (musically, at least) and can finally move on:
https://mega.nz/#!FNxxnLCa!lwo6VElSvw4CyMFFX6G1f04fU91Vn6gor6W6X15SF48



As for the performance, orchestra etc... I don't see where he said he paid 400$? Or 890? It's a small orchestra with very limited time to rehearse and perform. You could have easily paid 100$ or 400$ for one good musician under other circumstances (and more?). I'm not sure what people's expectations are? Nor do I remember their promotion saying you'll get ultra pro results (I'll agree I got the feeling they were a bit overstated though) and I think they had some guidelines of how to make the most of your limited time. Or maybe that was Four For Music? Sorry, I don't remember. And the results do seem to always be similar and consistent (I remember pieces some others have posted here). Was it a 7/15 min. session or what? If I did it, I'd probably send a fairly short (1-2 mins) and fairly easy piece. Or record only specific measures I wanted to bring out more or are difficult to get right with samples. I hear the intonation issues but they don't feel major to me (especially when put in context) and I'm more annoyed by the quite out-of-tempo brass and woods runs. With some massaging, it feels quite usable to me; as well as for the OP's stated purpose (layering, adding some liveliness to samples).

Clicks... Don't they use closed headphones? The sound overall is kinda "lost", a bit unbalanced (mic placement? and orchestration?) and a bit thin but again, it's not extremely bad.

I haven't really followed the 99$ orchestra closely. Do they have longer times, higher tiers, more instruments options? It'd be interesting to compare with these short sessions.

Anyway, thanks for sharing this MacTomBie. It was very good exercise for me. Good luck with your project.


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## MA-Simon (Feb 1, 2016)

NoamL said:


> I had a piece recorded with the first $99 kickstarter, but I didn't end up using the recording due to problems similar to yours including click bleed and intonation issues. I think your result is typical for the project. In the first run of the project they had booked over *64 hours* *of studio time* with almost 300 backers. Even though they spread it over 2 months it's still 64 hours of straight sightreading and recording. Just the huge # of backers alone, created issues because many amateurs wrote badly notated or nonidiomatic music that exhausted & frustrated the musicians. They also had problems getting the composers to be awake at the right time Lisbon-time to hear the streams & provide feedback, and essentially reverted to doing everything on autopilot, although that might have been fixed in the 2nd KS.


I think the playing is actually okay. But the sound is not one usable for soundtrack stuff. Maybe if they had a different recording environment?
Is there a site from them were we can listen to all results or are these privat?


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## Hannes (Feb 2, 2016)

MA-Simon said:


> I think the playing is actually okay. But the sound is not one usable for soundtrack stuff. Maybe if they had a different recording environment?
> Is there a site from them were we can listen to all results or are these privat?


I created a https://soundcloud.com/groups/99-orchestra-recordings (soundcloud group) for 99dollar recordings when they finished the first recording sessions


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## MacTomBie (Feb 4, 2016)

Hi WhiteNoiz  It seems I still have quite a lot to learn, as you managed to get much better results than me tampering with the recording. The first file you posted makes it sound really nice, but still I don't believe we would ever use something like this in the game over the sampled/layered version. Anyway, glad I was able to give you something worth playing with 



> I don't see where he said he paid 400$? Or 890?



We ended up paying 400$. 300$ for the recording session (should be about 20 minutes, but ended up closer to 30) and 100$ for the transcription. But we were also recording an additional piece, part of the intro.



> Clicks... Don't they use closed headphones?



I believe that the musicians that weren't playing at the time, would just exit the studio and would leave their headphones on the chairs and the click got recorded on some mics.



> Do they have longer times, higher tiers, more instruments options?



I believe you can book as much time as you want, even a whole day with $99 Orchestra, but I don't believe they offer any bigger ensembles.


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## andremiranda2 (Apr 7, 2016)

The $99 Orchestra is doing another crowdfunding campaign and has a 40-piece orchestra now. It should help make the sound bigger and help the strings sound softer too! 

Here's the link for the campaign: https://igg.me/at/99dollarorchestra/x/13648972


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## mducharme (Apr 9, 2016)

The orchestra itself is not bad at all; the biggest problem is the orchestration. I was wondering why the strings were weak (with the woodwinds drowning them out), and after looking at the score sample on your page about the recording, I wasn't surprised.

The piece is, in my opinion, not orchestrated well for an orchestra of this size. By orchestration here, I mean the way that the (very good) sample version was converted to notation and divided up amongst the instruments. The piece is orchestrated as if it was a huge 100-piece orchestra playing it and instead you have only 30 performers, and there were no modifications made to the orchestration based on the performer count. This is a bad idea - there are ways to make a small orchestra sound bigger, and none of those techniques were done here. Page 1, your cellos are divisi, with half resting, and the other half are divisi *again*, playing the same note an octave apart (so essentially div a 4). This doesn't make any sense at all if you had only four (or so) cellos, because this basically means that two cellos weren't playing at all, and the other two were playing one note an octave apart. Violas also divisi, half of them resting - it makes no sense at all. With so few performers to begin with, almost any divisi is a bad idea, really. I would keep the sections in unison as much as possible. If you actually had all four cellos playing a note, and it was the same note, it would have more body to it, and the orchestra would sound bigger. Instead it sounds like you have a string quartet and are amplifying it by turning up the volume knob and adding reverb.

For that matter, where are the horns on the first page? Without the large section sizes, you could have really used the horns there to fill out the harmony, instead it sounds very empty, you just hear the woodwinds and cello/bass notes every so often.

What is with the bassoon line? You have the bassoonist doing these arpeggiated fireworks - I haven't checked my bassoon fingering charts, but I somewhat doubt that that line is easy for a bassoonist, given the enormous number of keys the instrument has, and the overall difficulty of playing it. And after all that, I can't even hear them. Where the bassoon really would have been helpful is doubling the cellos, giving them a rounder, fuller, more epic sound. Instead, that potential was wasted.

The bottom line here is that you could have had a decent end result with a 30 piece orchestra, but because it was converted too literally from the 100-piece sample version, you wound up with a tiny sound where you could have had a bigger one; and then, you could have added samples to augment the orchestra, rather than adding the orchestra to augment the samples.


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## MacTomBie (Apr 10, 2016)

Thanks Michael for the detailed insight. I agree with everything you wrote. Some of the problems were expected, but some came as a surprise. The entire project was rushed on our part so we ordered the transcription and didn't have any means to check it before recording. We paid about $100 for the transcription, but I don't know if we should have expected something better in this price (especially in the domain of levelling the piece into sections). Knowing what we know now, we could probably do much better. I guess we should have skipped the recording of the whole piece and just record the main melody lines in the brass and the strings separately for better layering. It probably would be cheaper and easier to work with and the end result would be better. Still, we don't regret trying as we've learned a lot.


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## JJP (Apr 10, 2016)

MacTomBie said:


> We paid about $100 for the transcription, but I don't know if we should have expected something better in this price (especially in the domain of levelling the piece into sections).



That's where the problem lies. You'll never get what you need from a $100 transcription. That's ludicrously cheap in my book. You also skipped a vital part of the process. The music wasn't orchestrated for the ensemble.

I've seen more than one project come to Los Angels where they skimped on orchestration and music prep. Then they hired the best musicians in town, got recording that didn't meet their expectations, and wondered, "Why didn't the musicians sound as good as I expected?"

The quality of the musicians is only one part of the equation. If the chart they are playing isn't good, great musicians won't be able to make it better. Orchestration is more than transcribing the midi on to the score.


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