# Hans Z.: "Where has the melody gone in film music?"



## mverta

Came across this interesting article from The Times, 2008:


Modern film scores are terrible, say composers
Dalya Alberge, Arts Correspondent

Most film music written today is terrible, with few scores lingering in the memory like the underwater menace of Jaws or the whimsical Moon River from Breakfast at Tiffany’s, top composers have told The Times.

Hans Zimmer, who wrote the music for the Hollywood box-office hits Gladiator and The Lion King, dismissed the majority of contemporary screen compositions as unmemorable. “They drift around like cows grazing. So many scores sound like nobody really thought about them.”

Anne Dudley, whose music in The Full Monty won an Oscar, and Christopher Gunning, whose score for La Vie en Rose picked up a Bafta this year, attacked the “blandness” of soundtracks.

The public appear to agree. A recent poll of the nation’s all-time favourite film themes was dominated by scores from decades ago by composers such as John Williams (Jaws) and Ennio Morricone (The Good, the Bad and the Ugly).

Gladiator and Pirates of the Caribbean were among five scores in the poll by Zimmer, whose Oscar-winning soundtrack for The Lion King has sold more than 15 million copies.

“Where is the next Jerry Goldsmith?” Zimmer asked yesterday, referring to the late composer of the Stravinsky-inspired score for Planet of the Apes and the jazzy theme of Roman Polanski’s Chinatown.

Zimmer praised the craftsmanship of Williams (Schindler’s List, Jurassic Park) and Morricone. “There’s never a lazy note from them,” he said. “I go to movies a lot and I find myself disappointed again and again [by] the blandness of the music. Where has melody gone in film music? What do you remember of Breakfast at Tiffany’s? Moon River by Henry Mancini. You can’t get it out of your head.”

He said that these days scores were more likely to be written by keyboard players with computer skills learned at film schools rather than composers trained at music college.

Dudley blamed American studios for choosing music “by committee”.



http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/ ... 564154.ece


Amen, Hans. 


_Mike

Original link: http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/ ... 564154.ece


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## germancomponist

Yeah,

I am missing melodies, too. I had started a thread here about this theme some time ago.

Big sound is beautiful, but big sound allone will never replace well written melodies.


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## rayinstirling

Maybe those who commission the music don't want to have "it" remembered even when their movie bombs.


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## choc0thrax

Even the superheroes these days don't have much of a melodic theme for themselves. I recently saw one of the worst films I've seen in years: Thor. Can't remember if he had a theme or not; if he did it wasn't very memorable. Maybe I was too busy being disoriented by the terrible CG and dutch angles to notice the music.


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## Brobdingnagian

Good read, thanks. Found this line by Hans rather ironic, given his background/entree into his milieu:

"He said that these days scores were more likely to be written by keyboard players with computer skills learned at film schools rather than composers trained at music college."


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## gsilbers

hmmm.. 

so then hans zimmer went ahead and wrote dark knight which the joker theme is ONE note going up in pitch. 

and inception which is 2 notes. 


i think the whole melody thing is just engraved to us by filmschool composers who rely too much on melody because they did not have a computer. 

now you can do many other things sonically to convey a films sound. 

aka: like the hans zimmer examples above.


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## lux

it sounds like "stop ripping my ostinatos and do your own fuckin melodies dudes!"

In general i think its an event which leads to promising scenarios. The copycat managers will take it as the new motto, the next big thing, because Hans said it, and probably will start rewarding again the melodic guys, which have been treated like a pest for years now.

Someone had to tell, Hans did it, so thanks.


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## Ashermusic

gsilbers @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> i think the whole melody thing is just engraved to us by filmschool composers who rely too much on melody because they did not have a computer.



Dear Lord, take me now. :cry:


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## Guy Bacos

Here we go again.


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## mverta

Actually, Guy, that article oughta shut a few people up, but it won't. Sorta like 9/11 truthers. In any case, well, there it is.


_Mike


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## gsilbers

Ashermusic @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> gsilbers @ Thu Jun 02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> i think the whole melody thing is just engraved to us by filmschool composers who rely too much on melody because they did not have a computer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Lord, take me now. :cry:
Click to expand...



maybe no one care really about a strong melody. 


anything from brian tyler comes to mind. no strong melodies, movies makes millions, keeps getting him hired. it works, move on. 

of course there is some melodies but strong melodies like in the 80 and 90 ( and those films in the article) nope. 

do those film stand the test of time? its a case to case scenario and its for sure not because of the music alone. 


also from hans zimmer which you did not add in my quote. 

dark night joker's theme and inception is barley a melody and still the most memorable sounds of a movie this past decade. 
now, melody for pirates of the Caribbean .. i dont remember it. 

those movies made millions and have strong and memorable themes/sound. 
so the point is that it does not really matter to have strong "memorable" melody like those older movies. if it works it works. one note glissando... sure why not. 
amazing more complex theme like indiana jones sure... whatever works for the picture.
but thinking if it doesn have a "memorable" melody like those mentioned films is just BS. 
and its because in filmschool and music school is all about melody and harmony and orchestra so anything different related to technology is treated like a "leppard" and its not considered good or worthwhile.


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## Guy Bacos

gsilbers @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> and its because in filmschool and music school is all about melody and harmony and orchestra so anything different related to technology is treated like a "leppard" and its not considered good or worthwhile.



That is terribly inaccurate. In any university music program, you first work with the basics, harmony, melodies, counterpoint etc, By the time you are in your 3rd year, you get into all the contemporary styles of music and some pretty wacky styles too, and good film composers have a very high influence from these 20th composers. They also bring up to date with the latest technology. If you are studying composition, and you show a melody in your 3rd year, they will likely through it in the garbage so you could explore modern composition techniques. So if anything, it's more the opposite. They may not make you study JW or Zimmer, but they figure with the solid background you'll have, you will be able to do what you want after that. Might be better to get your facts straight before stating something like that.


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## midphase

For the nth time...a chord progression is not a melody!!!

Inception is (for the most part) a chord progression....a pleasant one, with a cool leading tone, but it's just a chord progression. Same with Pirates, same with Backdraft, etc. etc. 

Gladiator on the other hand has actual melodies....wanna know which one is the only Zimmer soundtrack I have ever bought in my life?


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## MikeH

gsilbers @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> because in filmschool and music school is all about melody and harmony and orchestra so anything different related to technology is treated like a "leppard" and its not considered good or worthwhile.


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## lux

midphase @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> For the nth time...a chord progression is not a melody!!!
> 
> Inception is (for the most part) a chord progression....a pleasant one, with a cool leading tone, but it's just a chord progression. Same with Pirates, same with Backdraft, etc. etc.
> 
> Gladiator on the other hand has actual melodies....wanna know which one is the only Zimmer soundtrack I have ever bought in my life?



I disagree about the Pirates, which i think is full of nice melodies, probably my favourite Zimmer score with Black Rain.


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## maraskandi

Perhaps information overload is trying to eradicate melody from the world.


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## choc0thrax

Are we sure Zimmer isn't just joking? He's a smart guy, he's fully aware that he's the one who created this problem and killed film music.


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## Ed

choc0thrax @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> Are we sure Zimmer isn't just joking? He's a smart guy, he's fully aware that he's the one who created this problem and killed film music.



I don't see it? Zimmer is a very thematic composer, in fact I can't think of many scores from him that *don't *have a strong theme. Batman and Inception aside as they are meant to be like that.

Me thinks what some people are calling melody and what others are calling melody are two different things.


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## Ed

midphase @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> Same with Pirates, same with Backdraft, etc. etc.



Inception I agree, mostly, but absolutely not about Pirates and Backdraft. They have VERY strong themes. Wtf qualifies as a theme in your opinion? And how can Gladiator have "actual melodies" while these not?

Seems like this calls for some of you to give your definition of a melody or this threads going to get stupid very quickly! Is it different to a "tune"? Different to a "theme"? Are they all different things, or are they all the same thing? If they are different what is the difference and what examples are there of each?


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## gsilbers

midphase @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> For the nth time...a chord progression is not a melody!!!
> 
> Inception is (for the most part) a chord progression....a pleasant one, with a cool leading tone, but it's just a chord progression. Same with Pirates, same with Backdraft, etc. etc.
> 
> Gladiator on the other hand has actual melodies....wanna know which one is the only Zimmer soundtrack I have ever bought in my life?




so whats wrong for being just a chord progression. ?? 

still memorable, atill good, still watched and liked by millions.


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## Ed

gsilbers @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> so whats wrong for being just a chord progression. ??



I'd like to first confirm why Pirates and Backdraft apparently have no melody and are just "chord progressions" while Gladiator does. 

I cant wait to see how silly this thread will become.


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## choc0thrax

Maybe the problem is there are no strong themes. You think a score doesn't have themes but it does and they're just like crappy generic ones. There is one theme by Zimmer that I can remember which is uhhh Crimson Tide.


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## gsilbers

Guy Bacos @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> gsilbers @ Thu Jun 02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> and its because in filmschool and music school is all about melody and harmony and orchestra so anything different related to technology is treated like a "leppard" and its not considered good or worthwhile.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is terribly inaccurate. In any university music program, you first work with the basics, harmony, melodies, counterpoint etc, By the time you are in your 3rd year, you get into all the contemporary styles of music and some pretty wacky styles too, and good film composers have a very high influence from these 20th composers. They also bring up to date with the latest technology. If you are studying composition, and you show a melody in your 3rd year, they will likely through it in the garbage so you could explore modern composition techniques. So if anything, it's more the opposite. They may not make you study JW or Zimmer, but they figure with the solid background you'll have, you will be able to do what you want after that. Might be better to get your facts straight before stating something like that.
Click to expand...



well, then its not the school but the actual composer... so much theory that was studied and to listen a movie like dark knight and inception/etc with only one or two note melodies.. and/or a simple chord progression.. 
it must kill them/you/me 

there are composers that studied a lot and do crappy scores and vice versa imo.


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## Ed

Really no tune in this at all. I don't know why so many people remember something like this when its obviously just a chord progression. :roll: 

I mean I honestly would love to know what people's definitions of melody are, because y'all must be using a "special" dictionary.

*PS:* Just because you don't like something, or think its bad or boring, *doesn't mean it doesn't exist*. 'KAY? I mean thats the most extreme suggestion I've heard yet!


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## gsilbers

MikeH @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> gsilbers @ Thu Jun 02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> because in filmschool and music school is all about melody and harmony and orchestra so anything different related to technology is treated like a "leppard" and its not considered good or worthwhile.
Click to expand...


oops.. 
more like this

http://angler-khagen.blogspot.com/2011/04/leprosy.html


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## gsilbers

PD: 

i think i hit a nerve here. man some are very defensive of melody.


my point is that a melody or theme is about conveying emotion, recognition of characters and of places and of thoughts and so for to artistically guide the viewer through transitions, the action, the movie in general. 

thats my poor mans definition of melody related to filmscore. 

now, in recent years with technology and/or thinking out of the box with orchestra , you can do similar results to provide the same end results without relying on melody-theme structures of the past. 
of course it will matter what style of movie it is and many other things that defy the music in a film. 
but a score which u hear those 2 notes-low brass "theme" u immediately know its inception. its the way they sound, the way it sounds inside the orchestra and the way it sounds to film makes it a memorable theme. 

if you can convey the emotions, the transtions, the character/place recognition/glue of the movie through just dense orchestration or musical effects, simple devices and the director likes it then the job is done. if a movie sells more than 10 millions $ and you keep getting hired then that means that something is being done right\


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## Guy Bacos

There was a time when a melody was defined as a linear succession of musical tones which is perceived as a single entity. etc..

In the post Zimmer era, a melody is a sound.


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## mverta

The lack of melody was only one component of the article. Equally present were the facts that - melody or not - the scores today are unmemorable, bland, "like nobody really thought about them," and "more likely to be written by keyboard players with computer skills learned at film schools rather than composers trained at music college."


_Mike


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## midphase

" if a movie sells more than 10 millions $ and you keep getting hired then that means that something is being done right\"

Yeah, it means the P&A people deserve a promotion! 

I'm looking at Box Office Mojo and it would appear as if crappy reviews are not enough to deter the sheep-like masses from purchasing tickets to go see films....what can I say? Good for us I suppose!


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## mverta

gsilbers @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> if a movie sells more than 10 millions $... that means that something is being done right\



No, it doesn't. It means absolutely nothing. We have successfully de-coupled quality from success in virtually all aspects of life. One no longer has anything to do with the other.


_Mike


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## midphase

BTW, I didn't say that chord progressions are not good or that they don't make for a good score...I just don't think they're melodies.


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## Guy Bacos

speaking of melodies and Zimmer, I have no problem with a theme being a single note, in fact I think it's a quality, but let's not get this confused with a melody.

I know the article is not about that, but just saying...


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## Ed

Well here is backdraft since it was given as an example earlier, are you guys seriously going to tell me there is no melody there? No strong theme?



Zimmer also wrote the Kung Fu Panda's theme which everyone over at the other thread enjoyed too. Feel free to say how utterly mind numbingly dreadful it is as I don't think anyone has yet.

I also really can't see much difference between this theme and, say, How to Train Your Dragon's theme which everyone went GAGA over. To be honest HTTYD ISN'T EVEN THAT MEMORABLE. People won't walk out of HTTYD humming the theme and most people won't remember it years later when The Most Memorable Film Themes of the 21th century comes out, but people love POTC because its so catchy even if some of you think its its too bland and boring. Its even become synonymous with what pirate music is now, yes, it is rather simple but "unmemorable" it evidently is not. I guess this will make people think I am pissing all over Powell rather than being positive about Zimmer. but whatever. As a theme, as a tune, its really not that different.



If none of these count as melodies or themes or are apparently so different to what people DO seem to call melodies then I really don't see music like you do and apparently never will. The fact some of you can actually define Zimmer scores like Backdraft to not even contain any MELODY but somehow Gladiator does is absolutely insane to me, what the hell is the difference? I'm serious, its absolutely bonkers! You know its more and more irritating to watch some of you guys constantly pretend your own damn opinion and tastes are facts. That is why I already know you will refuse to define melody to make any of this make any sense, just like every other time I have tried to get you guys to see reason and treat this objectively.

And Mike, the thing is with calling Zimmers themes bland and unmemorable, which I guess is the implication.Unmemorable is demonstrable. In this case its demonstrably false. Whether you like it or not POTC theme is one of the most remembered film music of this decade. Now no doubt you'll claim this is a mere corporate Hollywood plot to dumb us all down or maybe its the rapture coming any day now and that the entire world is falling down around in preparation because OBVIOUSLY NORMALLY themes like Zimmer's wouldn't have registered on anyone's ears as music worth more than a retard banging away on a broken casio.

And why on earth are people giving examples of music he has written that aren't very thematic? Batman wasn't ON PURPOSE. Inception wasnt ON PURPOSE. Way to go ignoring everything else he ever did.


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## midphase

RE: Backdraft....sorry dude, to me that's a leading tone in a chord progression.

BTW...just to be clear since you seem to be confusing terms, I'm specifically talking about "melody" and not "theme" which is a different thing completely. In the case of Inception, the single blaring horns note could be considered a theme...and there's nothing wrong with that (as a matter of fact, that's another Zimmer soundtrack that I own, although it was a gift).


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## choc0thrax

Your Backdraft video isn't working. The Kung Fu Panda theme is I guess inoffensive. I won't remember it 30 seconds after hearing it but it's not bad or anything... just as memorable as that piece of toast I ate this morning. I think I ate toast, not sure.


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## Ed

midphase @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> RE: Backdraft....sorry dude, to me that's a leading tone in a chord progression.
> 
> BTW...just to be clear since you seem to be confusing terms, I'm specifically talking about "melody" and not "theme" which is a different thing completely. In the case of Inception, the single blaring horns note could be considered a theme...and there's nothing wrong with that (as a matter of fact, that's another Zimmer soundtrack that I own, although it was a gift).



Thanks, but thats just repeating what you said again, I asked you for a definition and I asked you what makes Backdraft have no theme or melody while Gladiator does. If you have no definitons of your words then you're what you're saying is meaningless twaddle.

I'd love for you to tell me how a tune under a chord progression *isn't* melody. I can play Indiana Jones, Harry Potter, Star Wars like that too, is there some other magical element that makes it into a "melody" that is in Williams' music but would be missing if I did that? If I play those themes in that way, would they no longer be melodies? I checked some dictionaries and none of them remotely sound like what you're talking about, so what special dictionary do you use?

You also again use Inception as an example to prove you just want to give bad examples. It doesn't look like you actually want to deal this properly when you do that.


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## mverta

Ed @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> And Mike, the thing is with calling Zimmers themes bland and unmemorable...



I didn't.


I like Hans, and his work. The article, you'll note, has Hans decrying most scores as such.


_Mike


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## Ed

mverta @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> Ed @ Thu Jun 02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> And Mike, the thing is with calling Zimmers themes bland and unmemorable...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't.
> 
> I like Hans, and his work. The article, you'll note, has Hans decrying most scores as such.
Click to expand...


Well thats great Mike, then if my comments don't apply to you please disregard. I'm sure however you will notice there are a few people that they do apply to. I would like to know then why you disagree (presumably judging from this post), with them? Maybe since you're a lot more musically literate than I am you can explain to them exactly how they are wrong. If not, I would like to know how you can say "I didn't" above.


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## mverta

Ed @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> I'm sure however you will notice there are a few people that they do apply to.



Who or what is _they_ in that sentence. Is _they_ the criticisms? 



Ed @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> I would like to know then why you disagree (presumably judging from this post), with them?



Am I disagreeing with people, or am I disagreeing with criticisms? Or am I disagreeing with certain composer's music, thus actually agreeing with the criticisms?

Apologies, Ed, but sometimes your posts are difficult for me to follow. I can't always follow your subjects and verbs... 

_Mike


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## Ed

mverta @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> Who or what is they in that sentence. Is they the criticisms?



"They" is my previous comments I addressed to you. You know if you read the whole paragraph you can see that sentence in context :roll: 



> Am I disagreeing with people, or am I disagreeing with criticisms? Or am I disagreeing with certain composer's music, thus actually agreeing with the criticisms?



I don't know what any of that means... but you said that you like Hans and his music, so you must therefore agree with me when I disagree with people like Midphase that claims that Backdraft and Pirates have NO MELODY and is just a tune over a chord sequence. Funny, to me, that IS melody. What is really bizarre is straight afterwards claims Gladiator DOES have melody. I fail to see the difference. 



> Apologies, Ed, but sometimes your posts are difficult for me to follow. I can't always follow your subjects and verbs...



Its okay, but I'm quite sure your inability to understand is intentional. I really don't understand how you can misunderstand my posts to the degree you claim you do by mistake, you're a smart guy.

The main point here is that the way some are using the term melody its clear from the context of Hans' article he doesn't mean melody like people like Midphase mean melody, with god knows whatever bizzare and fluid definition he has.


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## gsilbers

mverta @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> gsilbers @ Thu Jun 02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> if a movie sells more than 10 millions $... that means that something is being done right\
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, it doesn't. It means absolutely nothing. We have successfully de-coupled quality from success in virtually all aspects of life. One no longer has anything to do with the other.
> 
> 
> _Mike
Click to expand...


i disagree. 

how else do you judge if something is good or bad than by its demand in our modern world. 

i can say its the best thing ever but if i am the only one then its that REALLY the best thing ever? to me it is but as a whole and in society and specially as a "product" as movies are? 

to ME something can suck.. . but does it REALLY suck? 1000 chick flix say otherwise  

Britney spears definitely sucks but it sure sells abroad and many people love her and 
sells a lot of records. its must be good or not?



but please expand on your

"We have successfully de-coupled quality from success in virtually all aspects of life. One no longer has anything to do with the other."

as i just dont wanna troll and assume your thoughts.


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## Ed

gsilbers @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> i disagree.
> 
> how else do you judge if something is good or bad than by its demand.
> .



Oh god no please don't make this thread about that, even I don't agree that popular = good, but last time I asked people like Mike to objectively define what they meant by "good" all I got was childish excuses for ignoring it all.

The main issue here is "melody" and what that is defined as. You should go bump that other thread if you want to talk about that again...


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## gsilbers

midphase @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> BTW, I didn't say that chord progressions are not good or that they don't make for a good score...I just don't think they're melodies.




it kinda read that you dont like those scores becuse there is no melody. 

and also, for inception im referring to the low brass 2 note thing.. which is , per HZ, the result of a very extreme time expansion of the edith piaf song. 

but yes, it also has track "time" which is great, simple chord progression with leading tone.


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## gsilbers

Guy Bacos @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> There was a time when a melody was defined as a linear succession of musical tones which is perceived as a single entity. etc..
> 
> In the post Zimmer era, a melody is a sound.



well, i dont think its about melody or not but how to get a "memorable theme/sound" in films. 

u still got a lot of melodies going on everywhere.


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## gsilbers

mverta @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> The lack of melody was only one component of the article. Equally present were the facts that - melody or not - the scores today are unmemorable, bland, "like nobody really thought about them," and "more likely to be written by keyboard players with computer skills learned at film schools rather than composers trained at music college."
> 
> 
> _Mike




true the article says that. 

i think the article is blaming the score on the composer alone when the director is 100% responsible for it. he hires A composer (one of thousands) to get a specific sound, gives the composer the temp score and approves the score. 
if the score sucks or does not get deliver to the sound stage the executives are not going to yell at the composer, they hold the director accountable. 

also, has a director ever mentioned to changed melody or asked to make it more :memorable:?

most composer just follow the temp score and the "standards" learned at school and internships with other composers. 
most follow the tried and true rules of spotting and finding the melody or sound for the villian, hero etc then mixed up and develop more and more. 

i the main point of film music is to enhance the film itself so if there is no reason for
the movie to have music that stands out too much then why. 

even john william has scores that sound bland, ive seen many movies by goldsmith which sounded bland to me or most likely i didn't even notice cause i was enjoying the film. o[]) (finally found that emoticon useful)

thinking that score today do not sound as the scores of yesterday is like when old people listen to rock or rap music.. everything new sucks.

it reminds me to bob katz quote in gearslutz:
"There are two kinds of fools. One says-this is old and therefore good. The other says-this is new and therefore better."


in HZ defense i think he does have a good sense of what to put in a film. even said by scott smalley that he might sucks at theory and that bable but he sure can make it up in knowning how to get a good sound in a film and knowing what it needs.


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## Guy Bacos

gsilbers @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> Guy Bacos @ Thu Jun 02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There was a time when a melody was defined as a linear succession of musical tones which is perceived as a single entity. etc..
> 
> In the post Zimmer era, a melody is a sound.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> well, i dont think its about melody or not but how to get a "memorable theme/sound" in films.
> 
> u still got a lot of melodies going on everywhere.
Click to expand...


Go back and read the first page. I think it was Ed who said we should define "melody". I was merely making a comment about that.


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## StrangeCat

mverta @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> Came across this interesting article from The Times, 2008:
> 
> 
> Modern film scores are terrible, say composers
> Dalya Alberge, Arts Correspondent
> 
> Most film music written today is terrible, with few scores lingering in the memory like the underwater menace of Jaws or the whimsical Moon River from Breakfast at Tiffany’s, top composers have told The Times.
> 
> Hans Zimmer, who wrote the music for the Hollywood box-office hits Gladiator and The Lion King, dismissed the majority of contemporary screen compositions as unmemorable. “They drift around like cows grazing. So many scores sound like nobody really thought about them.”
> 
> Anne Dudley, whose music in The Full Monty won an Oscar, and Christopher Gunning, whose score for La Vie en Rose picked up a Bafta this year, attacked the “blandness” of soundtracks.
> 
> The public appear to agree. A recent poll of the nation’s all-time favourite film themes was dominated by scores from decades ago by composers such as John Williams (Jaws) and Ennio Morricone (The Good, the Bad and the Ugly).
> 
> Gladiator and Pirates of the Caribbean were among five scores in the poll by Zimmer, whose Oscar-winning soundtrack for The Lion King has sold more than 15 million copies.
> 
> “Where is the next Jerry Goldsmith?” Zimmer asked yesterday, referring to the late composer of the Stravinsky-inspired score for Planet of the Apes and the jazzy theme of Roman Polanski’s Chinatown.
> 
> Zimmer praised the craftsmanship of Williams (Schindler’s List, Jurassic Park) and Morricone. “There’s never a lazy note from them,” he said. “I go to movies a lot and I find myself disappointed again and again [by] the blandness of the music. Where has melody gone in film music? What do you remember of Breakfast at Tiffany’s? Moon River by Henry Mancini. You can’t get it out of your head.”
> 
> He said that these days scores were more likely to be written by keyboard players with computer skills learned at film schools rather than composers trained at music college.
> 
> Dudley blamed American studios for choosing music “by committee”.
> 
> 
> 
> http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/ ... 564154.ece
> 
> 
> Amen, Hans.
> 
> 
> _Mike
> 
> Original link: http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/ ... 564154.ece



He is completely right too. Avatar I think is great film score and does very good job of using the melody in a film, it's a short motif that is intertwined through out the film then used again in the crappy end song (in the chorus)

So what is it ? Is it the melody composing to represent a theme of the film and characters? Or is it the music directing. It's the music directing.

you can have tons of cues for this and that but with out a over all arching melodic theme it will be forgotten as just music to display emotion. With out that theme or idea coming back through out the film the music will be forgotten. A strong statement can hold the whole film. 

I thought Harry Potter last film was very bland non melodic film music but maybe that's what they wanted for that art style film? which was very bland....


----------



## mverta

Ed @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> ...you must therefore agree with me when I disagree with people like Midphase that claims that Backdraft and Pirates have NO MELODY and is just a tune over a chord sequence.



Of course Backdraft has a melody...?! It doesn't make it "not a melody" just because it's explicitly attached to its underlying chords in the voice leading! If that were true, then Raiders isn't a melody, nor is Star Wars or Superman. I could go on, but I feel guilty for even addressing this shockingly indefensible non-issue.




Ed @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> I'm quite sure your inability to understand is intentional.



I have an 8-month-old crawling around here trying to get his hands in everything. Trust me, I have better things to do than waste time pretending not to understand you for kicks. I'm quite sure about that.

However, now you know that at least _one_ thing that you feel "quite sure" of, isn't actually true. And that's always good to know.


_Mike


----------



## midphase

Ok, sigh...since at some point anything that plays anything will become a melody....let me clarify further what I was referring to:

Listen to the first 50 seconds of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kg1IjbIBXZQ

That is a chord progression.


Now listen to this from 30 seconds in:

http://youtu.be/vHAvjaHtlMA

That is a melody (an awesome one at that).


Chord progression:

http://youtu.be/imamcajBEJs

Melody:

http://youtu.be/XLK5OWU2YGw



So Ed, if you use the dictionary definition of a melody, I suppose any fart is succession would qualify. Personally I look for something more than just a chord tone moving to another chord tone in melodies...it's my personal opinion and I realize it's not a standard way of thinking about music in the strictest dictionary term...but it's what gets me out of bed in the morning.

Once again, I'm not saying that a certain style of scoring is better or worse...I quite liked Inception's score and I think it's one of my favorite Zimmer works in recent years...but to not be able to discern the difference between what used to be considered a good melody, and what now passes as one is to be part of the problem.


----------



## lux

Ed i think youre heating up a bit this thread which was flowing nicely enough. You can say the exact things you said without getting angry like a bull as in your first post.

I agree with Mike Verta here. Its just not a matter of melody, which is of course relevant and nice to have.

The discussion is about "technic" and sound design soundtracks versus more musical forms. 

This topic will never see people agreeing here, because 50% work every day in sound design and 50% are more typical musicians.

Just a few points which i believe into with no order:

- Sound design is allowed to be creative

- Arranged music is allowed to be boring, uninventive and flat.

- As a matter of fact, application and time can lead to become a good sound designer. Mostly because more technique is required.

- As a matter of fact application and time couldnt be enough to be a good composer. There is so many people that after a life in music and study cannot put 10 memorable notes one after another.

- Defending the sound design derive of actual film music is legit, but is supposed to make the market a piranha lake. Because of pratically no barriers to entry and no "highs" allowed. No barriers means that a fuckin athlon can be enough to get a great result with cracked software and a 16 years old driver. "No highs" means that probably once you get a certain result youre not supposed to really shine out of it. The higher products i've heard are good but do not shine. So being a working composer becomes completely detached by the fact of being able to really have your head out of the mass with your talent. Price becomes a good rule, and unfair behaviours the other rule. If you cannot evidence your qualities youre likely to fight as a monkey and not a man.


----------



## johnhamilton

I agree, there's a lot of crap out there now, especially on TV, a lot of them commission composers because they know them as a friend, that's fair enough but they may not be any good at what they do genre wise!


----------



## EwigWanderer

Hans Zimmer:

Da Vinci Code (has great melodies...listen the whole cd)
Matchstick Men
The Weather Man 
Black Rain..of course..

etc..

In these days in a big blockbuster movie there are no room for great melodic themes (Thats what I think producers will say), but with smaller films the situation is different..and thats great. 

In War of the Worlds and maybe in Minority Report John Williams also uses same kind of rhythms etc like there seems to be in all big action movies. Williams just has so much more going on behind that 16th note melody.


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## KEnK

I've been thinking about this lately:

Seems to me that Bernard Herrmann may bear some responsibility here.

Think about it- 
I'm pretty sure he was the 1st composer to just use ominous repeating
chords. He was writing "sound". Woodwind and brass "chords".

Of course I know he wrote incredibly beautiful melodies.
In fact, he is probably my all time favorite film composer,

but...


KenK


----------



## Ed

midphase @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> Ok, sigh...since at some point anything that plays anything will become a melody....let me clarify further what I was referring to:
> 
> Listen to the first 50 seconds of this:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kg1IjbIBXZQ
> 
> That is a chord progression.
> 
> 
> Now listen to this from 30 seconds in:
> 
> http://youtu.be/vHAvjaHtlMA
> 
> That is a melody (an awesome one at that).




This really blows my mind, you are literally hearing things that aren't there. There is no objective difference here. Even Mike who is musically literate agrees saying this is a _"shockingly indefensible non-issue._". 




> Chord progression:
> 
> http://youtu.be/imamcajBEJs
> 
> Melody:
> 
> http://youtu.be/XLK5OWU2YGw




Oh dear you see your first 2 examples were more or less equal, but this is not. 

Why do you insist on comparing the intentionally "minimal" (might not be the best word to describe it) approaches in Incepetion or Batman to heavily thematic works? Why about the rest of Zimmer's catalogue?

What about Rain Man? 
What about True Romance
What about Beyond Ragoon? 
What about The Lion King?
What about The Last Samauri?
What about Angels and Demons?
What about Sherlock Holmes?
Even Pirates of the Carribean? 

Chord progressions I suppose, no melody....

Not that it seems to matter... apparently judging from the previous example you can still look at two practically identical melodies and say one is merely a chord progression and one is a melody, that to me is astonishing. 



> So Ed, if you use the dictionary definition of a melody, I suppose any fart is succession would qualify.



At least it makes sence whereas yours is so arbitary and fluid the only way anyone can know something is a melody is if they ask you first.



> Personally I look for something more than just a chord tone moving to another chord tone in melodies...it's my personal opinion and I realize it's not a standard way of thinking about music in the strictest dictionary term...but it's what gets me out of bed in the morning.



You know I did ask you a question in an attempt to get you to test your definition, try answering it this time:

_I'd love for you to tell me how a tune under a chord progression isn't melody. I can play Indiana Jones, Harry Potter, Star Wars like that too, is there some other magical element that makes it into a "melody" that is in Williams' music but would be missing if I did that? If I play those themes in that way, would they no longer be melodies?_



> I quite liked Inception's score and I think it's one of my favorite Zimmer works in recent years....



Once again with Inception....

Whatever happens, forget the idea that you are even remotely talking about what Zimmer is talking about.


----------



## David Story

There are people who can't hear melody. The succession of tones is not processed by their brain as a coherent whole. The condition is similar to people that don't listen to a particular style of melody, eg a european that hears gamelan for the first time.

Of course most folks think their perceptions can be trusted, that if they don't get it, there must not be anything there.

We have the task of writing melodies for an audience raised on sound design "music". Motifs, anyone?

Though I am working on songs recently, for clients that are older, and want broadway style


----------



## noiseboyuk

It IS pretty subjective. I think HTTYD is a killer tune and my kid sings it all the time, while even after 4 movies I think it's the feel of the Pirates theme (which is GREAT) that people remember rather than the notes which are almost unsingable. The Backdraft cue really doesn't sound like a great theme to me, but Gladiator's theme is outstanding. But I couldn't really objectively argue any of that stuff, it's just my ears.

Anyway. Can't remember which interview this was, but I remember Zimmer challenging other composers to come up with a classic theme-based score in what he called a "modern action movie" a la Inception or Dark Knight. He said he's tried but failed, the themes get in the way in that genre. I suspect he's right. TDK's score left me totally cold, but I thought Inception was very good indeed, so for me a good theme doesn't make or break a good score.

I'm a theme person, I can barely write without them. I love them mainly cos I just do, but also for their storytelling ability, there's no other tool in our arsenal so powerful in that regard. But I can also see that they have their time and their place in modern film, and this isn't necessarily something to wring our hands over.

I agree much is bland today, and most movies would imho benefit from a great theme-based score... just not all. Here's an example I'm really conflicted over.... Wall-E. I really like Newman, and I really like his score in the film. But... BUT... oh for a Williamseque magical theme in there too. It was a deservedly hugely successful film, but I sometimes wonder if it wouldn't have been even bigger with a theme as iconic as, say, ET, something so instantly identifiable with such a memorable character. But like I say I'm conflicted... I really do like with Newman did regardless.


----------



## madbulk

It's subjective, but not very.
If I play two chords in succession, the two highest notes are the melody until you have 
pretty strong evidence otherwise. 
e.g. Waldstein.
Exceptions prove the rule. 
Else you're just being a little belligerent.

That said, Ed, don't push so hard to "win." You'll live longer, Man.


----------



## Nostradamus

Hey guys, 

I've a question: does a film score essentially need a melody line? Isn't it true that the composers main task is more to support a certain scene / mood than to write memorable melody lines? AFAIK the psychology of perception found out that you actually can't watch a movie and listen to the music at the same time, let alone to judge or analyze the music. Okay, you can get virtually every score on CD and analyze the music to death afterwards, but in my opinion a film score without film often (not always) fails to a certain extend, because it's somehow "disconnected". It looses its supportive character and get into main focus of attention and suddenly a score seems to be bland, even when it worked quite well in a certain scene.

A 2nd question: aren't the film producers responsible for this dilemma of bland scores as well? In the end the composers deliver what the producers ask for. And nowadays the typical Hollywood style movie is packed with special effects and a huge orchestral wall of sound. Everything must be jaw-dropping and more often than not there's no room for compositional finesse.

And a 3rd question: maybe all this is forced by the composers themselves because a score with a distinctive melody can fail and considered that the composer needs to get the next job he is on the safe side when he minimize the risk of writing bad melodies.


----------



## noiseboyuk

I'll add a few thoughts to Q1. The premise that you can't be immersed in a film and really listen to the music sounds perfectly reasonable to me, at least on a first viewing. But I'm not sure where that gets us re. the melody. Take a simple example of a classic heroic tale where a heroic motif is used every time the hero does something heroic (clever stuff all this, eh?) If the film is any good, I'd be surprised if an audience is consciously aware of the theme on opening night. But the point is... it's WORKING. Part of the reason they are immersed in the movie is that the music is doing its job, and the use of themes is often a big part of that. Just as, say, shallow depth of field can be used as a storytelling device to direct our attention to a certain aspect of a scene without the audience crying "whoa, nice use of pull focus there", I think themes work in the same way, they're part of the subconscious grammar of film storytelling. 

Maybe this is just from my own perspective, but it's on 2nd and 3rd viewings that people start singing along, noticing the Raiders theme and savoring it as Indy swings across the chasm. Ask yourself this question... would those cinematic moments and those stories have been improved by a different bland series of barely connected notes in a major key used each time and played by trumpets cos' that's what heroic music sounds like? I think not...


----------



## Dan Mott

noiseboyuk @ Sun Jun 05 said:


> I'll add a few thoughts to Q1. The premise that you can't be immersed in a film and really listen to the music sounds perfectly reasonable to me, at least on a first viewing. But I'm not sure where that gets us re. the melody. Take a simple example of a classic heroic tale where a heroic motif is used every time the hero does something heroic (clever stuff all this, eh?) If the film is any good, I'd be surprised if an audience is consciously aware of the theme on opening night. But the point is... it's WORKING. Part of the reason they are immersed in the movie is that the music is doing its job, and the use of themes is often a big part of that. Just as, say, shallow depth of field can be used as a storytelling device to direct our attention to a certain aspect of a scene without the audience crying "whoa, nice use of pull focus there", I think themes work in the same way, they're part of the subconscious grammar of film storytelling.
> 
> Maybe this is just from my own perspective, but it's on 2nd and 3rd viewings that people start singing along, noticing the Raiders theme and savoring it as Indy swings across the chasm. Ask yourself this question... would those cinematic moments and those stories have been improved by a different bland series of barely connected notes in a major key used each time and played by trumpets cos' that's what heroic music sounds like? I think not...



Agree.


----------



## ChrisAxia

noiseboyuk @ Sun Jun 05 said:


> I'll add a few thoughts to Q1. The premise that you can't be immersed in a film and really listen to the music sounds perfectly reasonable to me, at least on a first viewing. But I'm not sure where that gets us re. the melody. Take a simple example of a classic heroic tale where a heroic motif is used every time the hero does something heroic (clever stuff all this, eh?) If the film is any good, I'd be surprised if an audience is consciously aware of the theme on opening night. But the point is... it's WORKING. Part of the reason they are immersed in the movie is that the music is doing its job, and the use of themes is often a big part of that. Just as, say, shallow depth of field can be used as a storytelling device to direct our attention to a certain aspect of a scene without the audience crying "whoa, nice use of pull focus there", I think themes work in the same way, they're part of the subconscious grammar of film storytelling.
> 
> Maybe this is just from my own perspective, but it's on 2nd and 3rd viewings that people start singing along, noticing the Raiders theme and savoring it as Indy swings across the chasm. Ask yourself this question... would those cinematic moments and those stories have been improved by a different bland series of barely connected notes in a major key used each time and played by trumpets cos' that's what heroic music sounds like? I think not...



+2!


----------



## mverta

Nostradamus @ Sun Jun 05 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I've a question: does a film score essentially need a melody line? Isn't it true that the composers main task is more to support a certain scene / mood than to write memorable melody lines?



These aren't mutually exclusive ideas.

But no, a memorable melody isn't essential; neither is memorable dialog or memorable camera framing. But dramatic moments which stay with us after the fact are superior to transient, fleeting ones. No shortage of people were humming the great filmscore themes in the car ride home from the theater, just as they were reliving great dialog moments to each other over dinner later, as well. Having the work stay with you, become a part of you, is part of its beauty, and melody is a powerful and effective way to do that. But memorable alone is only half the equation. Any fool can create something memorable for how shocking it is, like blowing up a child on screen. That alone doesn't make something great, either.

_Mike


----------



## lux

noiseboyuk @ Sun Jun 05 said:


> Maybe this is just from my own perspective, but it's on 2nd and 3rd viewings that people start singing along, noticing the Raiders theme and savoring it as Indy swings across the chasm. Ask yourself this question... would those cinematic moments and those stories have been improved by a different bland series of barely connected notes in a major key used each time and played by trumpets cos' that's what heroic music sounds like? I think not...



I think its almost impossible to disagree with that.

But, then, the question is, why we are at the point we actually are? Whos responsable?


----------



## poseur

i like melodies, and continue to write them.
in my scores.

what i hear as "melody" may not jibe, of course,
with what (the proverbial, or so-called) "_everyone_" hears as melody.

for context, though:
i haven't been working on too many mega-action movies
the ones that so many folks, here, love & seem to be generally focussed-upon:
the (somewhat traditionally-rooted) "big scores", so to speak.....

when hans (or, anyone else) speaks publicly on such subjects,
so broadly & generally,
i tend to take it w/an uncountable number of grains-of-salt;
ymmv.

d


----------



## poseur

lux @ Sun Jun 05 said:


> But, then, the question is, why we are at the point we actually are? Whos responsable?



finally?
every individual composer is individually responsible for what they do:
the jobs they take-on, the scores they deliver (regardless of the score's perspective).
i blame no-one but myself for my own work;
i do not overemphasise the "blame" on 3rd-party heroes & villains.

dt / spltrcl


----------



## noiseboyuk

lux @ Sun Jun 05 said:


> But, then, the question is, why we are at the point we actually are? Whos responsable?



Welll.... I'm not sure I'm as bleak about the current state of film scores as many. But go with me on this flight of fancy....

I blame The Empire Strikes Back myself. Not the score, but the film. It put delusions of depth into the minds of a generation as they grew up... you know, it was the Dark One, it was complex, not like that silly New Hope. Now 30 years on it's impossible to have a straightforward live action tale of good vs evil. The 10 year olds who grew up watching Empire have kept that aesthetic. They've taken superhero films and big bold blockbusters and kept them for their own, robbing kids of the fun that is rightfully theirs (and secretly the adults too). In the 1960s Batman was cartoonish fun.... now it's The Dark Knight, rated R. BATMAN for goodness sake. And as Zimmer said, it's hard to make those great themes sit well in that kind of movie.

I'm pretty ambivalent about TDK as a movie. The story is absurd, though I can appreciate the craft in many areas - I think its supposed depth is all surface and underneath its just a stupid cartoony story trying to hide. I'm not against proper grown up films - Inception was very well done - but it's the theft of the family blockbuster that I resent. I think this trend is one reason why CG animation, especially the mighty Pixar, is so dominant... there really isn't a live action alternative. (not coincidentally perhaps, many CG films have great scores). In the meantime everyone else is trying to be darker than everyone else, and frankly themes aren't hip. Themes don't fit into the milieu... or so it is assumed. Add that to the corporate suits to who think its a good idea to remake Arthur rather than come up with an original story, demonstrating that people who run the studios aren't storytellers.

I long for modern day Star Wars, Back To The Futures, Indiana Joneses... proper heroes journey tales made by masters of the craft, good for kids and adults alike, in the way only the best CG films are today. That's why the scores we (mostly) love come from that era, or the golden Hollywood era... put simply, the films themselves were better all round.

I really don't think writing a theme based score is any more difficult or easy than one that isn't (nb - this is a different argument to a score which is musically as complex and rich as say Williams, Goldsmith or Hermann). And indeed Giacchino, Powell, Newton Howard, Zimmer and many others do them... when they are allowed to do them.

In short... blame the corporations who bought Hollywood, imho.


----------



## Ed

No responce to anyone in particular...

What melodies are seen in Close Encounters? Obviously there are melodies, but all everyone remembers is the Tuba alien part, intended as source music and worked into the score. Look at minority report, you have motifs and there are themes and melodies of course, but its not beating you over the head like ET, Starwars or Raiders etc. I'm not sure if that was Williams' intention or it was Speilbergs idea, my guess would be that Williams did this intentionally. What you do come away with is that they are still very powerful as scores, the same way Inception struck such a chord with people. I think we should pay attention to context when we read that article quoting Zimmer, seems some people don't know what melodies are so misunderstand that... and others don't understand what he means about it being unmemorable or unthought out,l as just because something is minimal doesn't mean it wasn't a great effective powerful score.

Anyway, blah blah blah, back to work....


----------



## Nostradamus

By the way, while we are debating about melodies, this track has a great one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtWa8g6EWvE&feature=related


----------



## Ed

Nostradamus @ Sun Jun 05 said:


> By the way, while we are debating about melodies, this track has a great one:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtWa8g6EWvE&feature=related



I don't know who made that ....but this is Zimmers original from the film:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Q2OxBtE45c


----------



## noiseboyuk

Ed @ Sun Jun 05 said:


> What melodies are seen in Close Encounters? Obviously there are melodies, but all everyone remembers is the Tuba alien part, intended as source music and worked into the score.



That's so bizarre you should mention Close Encounters - I just bought it about 4 hours ago! My brother had it on cassette as a kid, but I've never owned it. Anyway, for some reason I found myself singing it all week on holiday even though I haven't heard it in a while - the sort of action motif used throughout the score. Anyway, you're right of course - the 5 notes which are iconic were the exasperated end product of over 300 combinations, so we can't really count that as Williams genius. The other themes are memorable - the main theme you know as soon as you hear it - but admittedly it isn't the same kind of level of "fame" as ET, Raiders etc. Again, I think that might be because of the kind of film... it's more of a drama than a classic blockbuster. The biggest themes work best in a certain kind of film. Despite this, the themes in CE3K are still integral to the storytelling of course.


----------



## Tanuj Tiku

Lux,

Sound Designer is not even relevant to this thread. Which commercial Hollywood film have you seen in the last decade that had sound design put as a score credit?

The new Batman films may not have a melody - melody, but it has a theme and its instantly recognised. So is Inception. 

I think films need themes more than melodies. As long as it fits to picture, is memorable, stands on its own and most importantly is appropriate to the style and storytelling of the movie - its great! 

I think lets move away from Zimmer. He is not relevant to this topic as much. He is not writing - Sound Design Music (whatever that means). He has made many memorable themes and melodies. Perhaps his thematic ideas are better than his melodies - but thats just his style and take on film music. Nothing wrong with that.

We are probably talking about movies like Transformer which have little melody writing and are not memorable. I thought the Iron Man films were tragic when it came to the score - the first one had no strong theme or melody. That was a BAD score. Iron Man 2 tried but even with a new composer - there was still no strong theme and the score was easily forgotten. 

Even though I love Desplat's music - I did not find Golden Compass to stick! Nor the new Harry Potter score.

Ditto with Patrick's score to HP. Cant remember anything. Dint want to make me go back and buy the soundtrack.

A GREAT recent example is SOURCE CODE. Its a great score by Chris Bacon - very refreshing. You look at that film and you think its Remote Control domain but you are pleasently surprised at the music and Chris Bacon really did a great job. It has a melody or some might call it a theme. Very cool stuff. 

As far as the great composers go. I will go ahead and dare to say that my personal favourite composer who is a Master of Melodic/Thematic writing - long form development and a composer who has consistantly done a great job with themes and variations and keeping it fresh is John Williams. 

He has almost super-human abilities with this stuff. Forget his orchestration and style for a minute. Just look at his ability to write melodies and twist them , move them around and fit to picture. 

Hermann really got into the skin of things - perhaps more than any composer alive in some ways. Vertigo and Psycho come to mind immediately. Vertigo was just really really great. The Day the Earth Stood Still was also fantastic! He was truly a great Film Composer. 

John Powell does some amazing stuff. Giacchino does lot of thematic stuff and melodies too!

Lets get out of this Zimmer thing. He is not responsible for everyone who comes out of Remote Control! John Powell turned out to be a fantastic composer - may be not Harry Gregson Williams!

There can be no doubt that Zimmer knows what he is doing and has done some excellent work which a traditionally approached composer would never have thought of. He may not be able to write great concert music. So lets just leave it at that!

Best,

Tanuj.


----------



## Tanuj Tiku

Another great example is the movie Heat scored by Elliot Goldenthal.

The opening credits are just amazing. I love the opening credits to Heat and the bank robbery scene had a very memorable electronic cue. 

Neither of these themes are repeated anywhere in the film as far as I remember - but they stick with you for those moments and are forever woven with the film. I remeber instantly thinking about the score even before I was really into film scoring myself.

It may not be as popular as Indiana Jones but I will always remember as soon as I hear it. 

Best,

Tanuj.


----------



## gsilbers

Nostradamus @ Sun Jun 05 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I've a question: does a film score essentially need a melody line? Isn't it true that the composers main task is more to support a certain scene / mood than to write memorable melody lines? AFAIK the psychology of perception found out that you actually can't watch a movie and listen to the music at the same time, let alone to judge or analyze the music. Okay, you can get virtually every score on CD and analyze the music to death afterwards, but in my opinion a film score without film often (not always) fails to a certain extend, because it's somehow "disconnected". It looses its supportive character and get into main focus of attention and suddenly a score seems to be bland, even when it worked quite well in a certain scene.
> 
> A 2nd question: aren't the film producers responsible for this dilemma of bland scores as well? In the end the composers deliver what the producers ask for. And nowadays the typical Hollywood style movie is packed with special effects and a huge orchestral wall of sound. Everything must be jaw-dropping and more often than not there's no room for compositional finesse.
> 
> And a 3rd question: maybe all this is forced by the composers themselves because a score with a distinctive melody can fail and considered that the composer needs to get the next job he is on the safe side when he minimize the risk of writing bad melodies.




i agree on your comments and rhetorical questions. 


point Q1:

you can get a mood which support whats on screen. once example is everything from bryan tyler... no specific string melody but good sound and orchestration/groove and you can still feel the conveying emotion. 

point Q2: yes, directors and producers sign off on the score, and most dont seem to like melody.. or strong melody. maybe they think its too old school/dated(?) 
dont think ive ever heard producers/directors comment on melody... but i might be wrong. 

point Q3: i dunno about this one. could be or not. string melody can easily go into cheesy territory.


----------



## gsilbers

now, i different thought of why modern films dont have strong sense of melody... 

Midi Mockups

strong sense of melody might sound too cheesy on midi mockups so directors/producers might not wanna sign off on it. 

cheesy to me but just a thought, anyone experience this?

(a good melody is a good melody but you show it to someone using a casio and they wont like....)


----------



## JohnG

Part of what's under discussion here is the role of music in film -- How involved and intrusive is the music invited to be these days?

*Clarity and Skill*

One reason why John Williams' scores are so memorable is that Stephen Spielberg's and George Lukas' intentions are so clear in the films for which JW is (justifiably) famous AND because they are filmmakers who know how to wield music as one of their more powerful weapons. Because of that clarity, the composer can go for the jugular from the first moment. He doesn't have to lurk in Extended Irony or be cool in some way -- he's got Death Stars and Indiana Jones. These are unapologetic, unblushing, very clear and forthright tales that invite the audience to come along and hear a ripping yarn. Planet of the Apes, a much more ambitious film that questioned whether man has evolved anything besides his ability to kill and control, benefitted from Jerry Goldsmith's almost frighteningly brutal score. Because that film too had something very bold to say, the music could be bold as well.

And on top of that clarity of vision, the filmmakers are not afraid to take a break from talk-talk-talk and present a major musical event once in a while.

But most movies are not like that, because most filmmakers aren't really that clear in what they are saying, and if they are, they may not know how to use music very effectively.

*Melody Barges In*

Melodies like those of JW are more intrusive than just a rhythm or shifting chords. A melody that includes identifiable emotional content is a declarative statement: You Are Watching THIS Sort of Movie. You Are Watching THIS Sort of Scene.

Some directors seek music that provides energy but doesn't really commit to a particular feeling; a kind of energetic busy-ness that gives a viewer the feeling that "something is going on" without tipping the hand or digging the elbow into the ribs. While that urge can stem from good taste, restraint, and subtlety -- or even the possibility that the movie might later do something unexpected and is holding something in reserve -- it also can burble up from a film that doesn't have much to say or muddles its ideas throughout. 

The muddle appears in many forms. Maybe the film alludes to a grab bag of Topical Important Ideas but never rises beyond the merely stylish and visually striking. Maybe the filmmaker has an emotional attachment to a message that is obvious or trite and, therefore, neither the music nor the film itself can be forthright because if it were it would expose how childish the ideas really are. Some filmmakers seek to remain elusive because making a forthright statement exposes the film's success to the judgement of the audience.

By contrast, both in its serious subject and execution Schindler's List is a work of genius, in my opinion. It could tolerate a "real" score because it is a real film with many important ideas.

So for those of us who love to really say something musical in a film that rises beyond the incidental level, we need to find filmmakers who have something to say, are not afraid to say it, and who are ready to use music to help them get the point over. And whether it's just for fun or dead serious, then we can write real music.


----------



## Ed

gsilbers @ Sun Jun 05 said:


> cheesy to me but just a thought, anyone experience this?
> 
> (a good melody is a good melody but you show it to someone using a casio and they wont like....)



+1 I get this. Thats why I'm excited about CS Brass as I should be able to write some better brass parts :D


----------



## midphase

JohnG @ Sun Jun 05 said:


> By contrast, both in its serious subject and execution Schindler's List is a work of genius, in my opinion. It could tolerate a "real" score because it is a real film with many important ideas.
> 
> So for those of us who love to really say something musical in a film that rises beyond the incidental level, we need to find filmmakers who have something to say, are not afraid to say it, and who are ready to use music to help them get the point over. And whether it's just for fun or dead serious, then we can write real music.




There is a sense that your post that implies two things:

1. Subtlety and melody are mutually exclusive.

2. A melodic score needs a bold film with pathos and depth.


I believe that some of the better composers in the business are able to reconcile those opposites together in cohesive ways that simply work regardless of the film's constraints and do not sound dated.

Unfortunately the composers who do this so well are so rarely discussed around here in favor of people who do flashier films, but if you revisit their work you'll find that these are the guys who are keeping the flame alive (and who get largely ignored by Hollywood).

Some names and cues:

Johan Soderqvist - Let the Right One In

http://youtu.be/VpPNCev0pEA


Jan Kaczmarek - Unfaithful

http://youtu.be/faxN8QaeF9Y


Gabriel Yared - Lives of Others

http://youtu.be/nkf4RpC_YXo


----------



## gsilbers

JohnG @ Sun Jun 05 said:


> Part of what's under discussion here is the role of music in film -- How involved and intrusive is the music invited to be these days?
> 
> *Clarity and Skill*
> 
> One reason why John Williams' scores are so memorable is that Stephen Spielberg's and George Lukas' intentions are so clear in the films for which JW is (justifiably) famous AND because they are filmmakers who know how to wield music as one of their more powerful weapons. Because of that clarity, the composer can go for the jugular from the first moment. He doesn't have to lurk in Extended Irony or be cool in some way -- he's got Death Stars and Indiana Jones. These are unapologetic, unblushing, very clear and forthright tales that invite the audience to come along and hear a ripping yarn. Planet of the Apes, a much more ambitious film that questioned whether man has evolved anything besides his ability to kill and control, benefitted from Jerry Goldsmith's almost frighteningly brutal score. Because that film too had something very bold to say, the music could be bold as well.
> 
> And on top of that clarity of vision, the filmmakers are not afraid to take a break from talk-talk-talk and present a major musical event once in a while.
> 
> But most movies are not like that, because most filmmakers aren't really that clear in what they are saying, and if they are, they may not know how to use music very effectively.
> 
> *Melody Barges In*
> 
> Melodies like those of JW are more intrusive than just a rhythm or shifting chords. A melody that includes identifiable emotional content is a declarative statement: You Are Watching THIS Sort of Movie. You Are Watching THIS Sort of Scene.
> 
> Some directors seek music that provides energy but doesn't really commit to a particular feeling; a kind of energetic busy-ness that gives a viewer the feeling that "something is going on" without tipping the hand or digging the elbow into the ribs. While that urge can stem from good taste, restraint, and subtlety -- or even the possibility that the movie might later do something unexpected and is holding something in reserve -- it also can burble up from a film that doesn't have much to say or muddles its ideas throughout.
> 
> The muddle appears in many forms. Maybe the film alludes to a grab bag of Topical Important Ideas but never rises beyond the merely stylish and visually striking. Maybe the filmmaker has an emotional attachment to a message that is obvious or trite and, therefore, neither the music nor the film itself can be forthright because if it were it would expose how childish the ideas really are. Some filmmakers seek to remain elusive because making a forthright statement exposes the film's success to the judgement of the audience.
> 
> By contrast, both in its serious subject and execution Schindler's List is a work of genius, in my opinion. It could tolerate a "real" score because it is a real film with many important ideas.
> 
> So for those of us who love to really say something musical in a film that rises beyond the incidental level, we need to find filmmakers who have something to say, are not afraid to say it, and who are ready to use music to help them get the point over. And whether it's just for fun or dead serious, then we can write real music.



i agree in most parts. 

but i would not put :

"The muddle appears in many forms. Maybe the film alludes to a grab bag of Topical Important Ideas but never rises beyond the merely stylish and visually striking. Maybe the filmmaker has an emotional attachment to a message that is obvious or trite and, therefore, neither the music nor the film itself can be forthright because if it were it would expose how childish the ideas really are. Some filmmakers seek to remain elusive because making a forthright statement exposes the film's success to the judgement of the audience." 

in a negative way or form but just difference in taste or just making it work for the picture. 
)


----------



## mverta

The Binary Sunset shot from Star Wars is one of the most iconic images in film history - and in that scene - which is just a guy looking at the horizon - the music alone completely sums up everything about the character, his motivations, and why we should root for him. It's one of the clearest examples of just how evocative great music can be, and yet, when's the last time you remember a shot anything like that, so boldly, unapologetically letting music do what nothing else can do as well? And all by itself! When's the last time a director had the balls, and the composer the skill, to hinge one of the central dramatic moments, and pivotal story points, on nothing but a musical cue alone? I'm not talking about a cue setting a mood; any fool can do that. I'm talking about music of such mastery that it captures not just a place, time, or mood, but the human soul and motivation of a person... Powerful stuff, virtually extinct. Again, anything can set a clear tone and mood. A half-step cluster can set a mood or a tone. But embody the spirit and essence of something as complex as a person and their motivations, in music, in one brilliant, brief summation? That is the stuff of wonder, to me.


_Mike


----------



## ozmorphasis

John, 

That is a very interesting way of looking at it. I spend quite a bit of time with artists (both in music and other modes of expression) who are put off by the fact that a Spielberg movie tells you more or less exactly what to feel, when to feel it, and then gives you the music that further drives the point home. You call this clarity, some others call it leaving little to the imagination.

Personally, I like both the Spielberg/Williams approach, as well as the There Will Be Blood approach, where there are is a strong message, but with tons of questions and room for the imagination. Although, I don't really consider the latter to be anywhere near on par with Williams in terms of musical craft. I simply mention it as an alternative approach used very effectively in a very non-Spielberg/Williams way.

For me, it's actually the difference between a pop approach, and something a bit off of the beaten track. As Francis Ford Coppolla said in a recent speech that I attended, "Spielberg is a very lucky man. He is very good at what he loves to do, and what he loves to do is what the greater masses want and are able to fully digest." 

I don't think it's just a question of clarity. Tarkovsky was clear, but he doesn't spell things out for you like that. His art would not convey what it needs to if he gave you a low string swell when he wants you to cry because the main character is looking at the sun(s) set after discovering that his uncle and aunt were killed. Nothing wrong with that, but again, it is not the only way to be super committed in your artistic expression.

Again, I don't judge. They are different approaches with different effects, and generally speak to different audiences.

O


----------



## Jimbo 88

I think film scores have been going the same direction as pop music.

Music created recently is more likely created by a sound or sample and not a melody. So it sounds great the 1st couple of times you hear it. Then it is discarded because no melody...and becomes boring quickly.

If film directors/producers wanted melodies in scores, there would be melodies.


----------



## Andrew Christie

mverta @ Mon Jun 06 said:


> when's the last time you remember a shot anything like that, so boldly, unapologetically letting music do what nothing else can do as well? And all by itself! When's the last time a director had the balls, and the composer the skill, to hinge one of the central dramatic moments, and pivotal story points, on nothing but a musical cue alone? I'm not talking about a cue setting a mood; any fool can do that. I'm talking about music of such mastery that it captures not just a place, time, or mood, but the human soul and motivation of a person... Powerful stuff, virtually extinct. Again, anything can set a clear tone and mood. A half-step cluster can set a mood or a tone. But embody the spirit and essence of something as complex as a person and their motivations, in music, in one brilliant, brief summation? That is the stuff of wonder, to me.
> 
> 
> _Mike



Lighting of the Beacons scene from Return of the King comes to mind


----------



## mverta

I suppose that's possible. I've never been able to stay awake long enough to finish one of those ponderous, homoerotic dwarf-porn films. But I'll take your word for it. After all, Howard Shore can write, being from the Old Guard and all.


_Mike


----------



## Ashermusic

mverta @ Sun Jun 05 said:


> I suppose that's possible. I've never been able to stay awake long enough to finish one of those ponderous, homoerotic dwarf-porn films. But I'll take your word for it. After all, Howard Shore can write, being from the Old Guard and all.
> 
> 
> _Mike



ROTFL!


----------



## David Story

Wonderful post John! Music can take the lead, and good directors plan for that.

I do feel that a subtle or even a muddled film can benefit from a bit of melodic content.
Poseur is a master at writing subtle melodies that support all manner of scenes and content. Midphase listed several others that I like.

For the non-melodic people: Academics lost touch, even more than usual, when they undervalued melody 90 years ago. Learn from that mistake. Melody is relevant, it's just hard to do well.

Realizing that is an epiphany.


----------



## noiseboyuk

mverta @ Mon Jun 06 said:


> The Binary Sunset shot from Star Wars is one of the most iconic images in film history - and in that scene - which is just a guy looking at the horizon - the music alone completely sums up everything about the character, his motivations, and why we should root for him. It's one of the clearest examples of just how evocative great music can be, and yet, when's the last time you remember a shot anything like that, so boldly, unapologetically letting music do what nothing else can do as well? And all by itself! When's the last time a director had the balls, and the composer the skill, to hinge one of the central dramatic moments, and pivotal story points, on nothing but a musical cue alone? I'm not talking about a cue setting a mood; any fool can do that. I'm talking about music of such mastery that it captures not just a place, time, or mood, but the human soul and motivation of a person... Powerful stuff, virtually extinct. Again, anything can set a clear tone and mood. A half-step cluster can set a mood or a tone. But embody the spirit and essence of something as complex as a person and their motivations, in music, in one brilliant, brief summation? That is the stuff of wonder, to me.



Absolutely. I've spent an awful lot of time in the last year trying to work out why A New Hope works for me far more than any of the other Star Wars films, both as a film and a score. I sadly came to the conclusion that as far as Lucas was concerned there was a lot more luck involved in Star Wars than any of the other films. He had less control, and had to rely more on others (despite not directing Empire or Jedi), and he had less resources to work with. All those negatives were actually positives in this case. It's telling that the weakest effects in the Special Edition are those inserted in the Special Edition, 20 years later.

And that binary sunset shot is a classic example - technically very simple, no CG flying dinosaurs circling the suns - but a perfectly realised iconic image... New Hope is full of these simple iconic images which elude the reset of the series imho. And you're absolutely right - that scene appears to achieve nothing and is prime candidate to being cut, but it's the very soul of the picture. Lucas never made this "mistake" again and filled the frame and script with stuff in future.

And into that stepped Williams. And again you're bang on... he gave the film its soul at that point. In terms of the great mythical arc, we're nearing the end of act one before Luke gets is call to adventure. This is the Ordinary World - at once we revel in its beauty and how fantastic it looks to us, yet what a prison it is for our hero and how he longs to be rid of it (the theme of the spectacular being ordinary was shot through Star Wars with Used Space... "what a piece of junk"). And Williams put all that into a few notes.

There's a famous filmmaking maxim - "show don't tell", which is a trueism. However, the music done right is part of the "showing", not "telling". And that's the best kind of cinema imho.

[LOTR... music is good and centre stage but it's not doing the same stuff as Williams did here].


----------



## Tanuj Tiku

There is absolutely no way of telling with certainty that something will become a global phenomena and change cinema forever. 

I dont think Lucas, Williams or Spielberg knew they were going to be as successful as they are today. They just did what they felt was right. 

I think its better to study what one likes and wants to achieve. There is no way you can learn from Williams how he became such a big success. What you can learn is the music, the passion, the honesty in his music, the technique.

He just is a genius. There is no analysis that can tell us why or how. He just is. People just do what they do and I feel there is no way of telling how or why its like that. Its just so pure - it just is. 

Not always true of course. 

Many people can write in the style of John Williams - but what JW writes is golden. You cannot learn that. It has to come from within. 

I agree with Mike that there is some magic in some film scores which is beyond technique even. There is a lot of thought that goes in. 

But be careful - this can be dangerous. Sometimes, thinking too micro and too much in detail can actually put off your best ideas. 

I remember Williams saying that he tries to immediately write something as soon as he has seen the picture for the first time. And he does not like to read the script. He just watches the film and starts writing whatever comes to him as the first reaction. 

I think, thats important. I think a great skill that composers must have is an ability to emotionally react to something and express that musically. I dont think there is a technique for that. Thats what makes some musicians unique I suppose. 

And I dont think that if you sit down to write something and believe that I am going to write a great melody that its always going to work. You just write with feeling. First, you feel something and have an urge to react to it musically - the next part is craft. If you are skilled, you will say it well. Otherwise, it will not be as well said. So thats important of course. 

Its important to work it out as well. If you keep yourself under this pressure of writing this great melody, you may not deliver. A great melody doesnt just come out. I think I am begening to understand what Mike has been saying all along. 

Its like - you dont just wake up one day and write something great. You probably have to write 1000 bad melodies before you write a good one. Point being, you have to practice. You must have craft. 

I knew friends at university who would wait for the ideas to come to them and guess what - they never did. May be you write 15 songs and if you are good, you can may be use 5 of them in an album. Keep the rest - redo them.

Sure, we do this all the time. I have tons of mock ups sitting on my hard drive. Some of them dint make it but then I sometimes revisit and think - oh, there is a better of saying this. 

You definitely have to keep writing......

Sorry, I think I may have gone off topic here.


Best,

Tanuj.


----------



## lux

vibrato @ Sun Jun 05 said:


> Lux,
> 
> Sound Designer is not even relevant to this thread. Which commercial Hollywood film have you seen in the last decade that had sound design put as a score credit?



I beg to disagree.

Today restraining the concept of sound design to the typical sfx's repertoire doesnt reflect the truth at all. 

Half times approach to scoring is "designed". If you give a careful look at many of the threads here you'll get an hint of that

"Zimmer ostinatos, how?"
"I do I get the voices like at 2.15?"
"Epic sounding xxxx put your whatever here xxxx?"
and the classic "Big percussions?"

often it comes with an "the director likes that shit and he wants exactly that sound from me".

Sound. Which notes, harmonies, melodies is probably secondary. Sound matters. Rythmic patterns maybe.

If thats not a sound design approach, what is?

Luca


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## Tanuj Tiku

I am sorry but thats a very narrow view Luca. Any sound used in a musical manner - is music. 

We have simply evolved. Its not sound design music. That doesnt even mean anything. Its just music. You may or may not like it. That is different. But using sound in a musical manner to tell a story is as relevant and integral as using a violin solo or a full orchestra.

I agree that this method has been abused by many composers but it does not make it less valid and cannot be termed 'Sound Design Music'. 

I know where you are coming from but we have stop writing as if anything non-orchestral or non-acoustic in nature is not music. That is very dangerous and wrong. 

We would be fools if we did not utilise the full spectrum of the wonderful world of Cinema sound systems. This is what I have said in another thread that a composer today can really use even the basic nature of sound to tell a story. I am not saying that you do something like Eraser Head all the time. But that delivery format is available and there are wonderful avenues to be explored. 

It just depends on the kind of movie.

You know, we all have more or less the same equipment and access to the same information. Its just how we interpret it individually that will hopefully make us unique. 

But yeah, sure - there is a lot of meaningless sound being pasted on to movies for shock value. But that ideaology or the method is certainly not less valid. Its just that particular person is not doing it right.


Film Music is not orchestral concert music. We should not confuse ourselves. That would be professional suicide on the long run IMHO. 

I would look forward to a score that did not use any orchestral sounds. The recent Tron Legacy was a great opportunity. Unfortunately, I thought both the movie and the music was really shallow. 

I like some bits of Inception for that matter. I think Zimmer played with thematic ideas in a way Williams would do in some of his scores. Wasnt nearly as complex - but thats not the point. It worked well with the film and created a great environment for the film to breathe in. It was also very thematic in nature and there was a lot of connection within the themes and the storytelling. 

However, I did not like the end track - Time. It was Zimmer doing his usual. I dont really like that style. Too simplistic and a bit boring. 

Certainly, sound used in a musical fashion is music. It could be a synth of a mangled car horn. There is absolutely no reason to look down upon that method or process of working. It is equally valid and should be held in high regard. 

Unfortunately, not everyone does it right. I agree to that.


Best,

Tanuj.


----------



## noiseboyuk

vibrato @ Mon Jun 06 said:


> Its like - you dont just wake up one day and write something great. You probably have to write 1000 bad melodies before you write a good one. Point being, you have to practice. You must have craft.



Oh boy, that's a thread of itself (and I think there have been several!). I don't agree really, certainly not entirely - of course there's a craft element to melody-writing, but I think the great composers are simply gifted. It's the old Salieri / Mozart thing.

Also when coming up with melodies I often find they come when doing other activities altogether (I'm a big fan of cycling for this!). The image of blood sweat and tears at the keyboard doesn't always deliver the goods imho.


----------



## lux

vibrato @ Mon Jun 06 said:


> I am sorry but thats a very narrow view Luca. Any sound used in a musical manner - is music.



Okay. I'm the less guy which you can call an orchestral elitist. I'm a rock guitar player and i'm an eletronic producer way before i've been even remotely orchestral. I have a in-love concept of scupting and designing musical experiences.

Thats different from flatly mimicking a sound, which is more or less what happens often those days. The approach to fast food scoring is well known and i believe there's no need for stating again its peculiarities.

Creative artists, producers and designers are another story. I'm more inclined to find those on recorded music than film music though. I buy 95% albums and 5% film music. Fortunately there are good exceptions in film scoring as well, a few of them sometimes hang here on this forum too.

Luca


----------



## George Caplan

the binary sunset shot from star wars......
:lol: :lol: :lol: 

you want to try watching where that type of scene was stolen from in the first place namely lawrence of arabia and david lean. THAT is iconic. and a lot of you wont remember because youre too young that there was a lot of talk at the time of films like that and dr zchivago that the themes were repeated too much during the film. film music can drag you out of the scene whether it has melodies or not. film music works best when its filmic and properly timed.


----------



## EnTaroAdun

mverta @ 2011-06-03 said:


> We have successfully de-coupled quality from success in virtually all aspects of life. One no longer has anything to do with the other.


Thx for speaking out the sad truth!


----------



## rpaillot

mverta @ Sun Jun 05 said:


> The Binary Sunset shot from Star Wars is one of the most iconic images in film history - and in that scene - which is just a guy looking at the horizon - the music alone completely sums up everything about the character, his motivations, and why we should root for him. It's one of the clearest examples of just how evocative great music can be, and yet, when's the last time you remember a shot anything like that, so boldly, unapologetically letting music do what nothing else can do as well? And all by itself! When's the last time a director had the balls, and the composer the skill, to hinge one of the central dramatic moments, and pivotal story points, on nothing but a musical cue alone? I'm not talking about a cue setting a mood; any fool can do that. I'm talking about music of such mastery that it captures not just a place, time, or mood, but the human soul and motivation of a person... Powerful stuff, virtually extinct. Again, anything can set a clear tone and mood. A half-step cluster can set a mood or a tone. But embody the spirit and essence of something as complex as a person and their motivations, in music, in one brilliant, brief summation? That is the stuff of wonder, to me.
> 
> 
> _Mike



"Chevaliers de Sangreal", end scene from da vinci code. Probably my favorite "film music scene" in recent years


----------



## bluejay

Well the closing scene from The Da Vinci Code has dialog/voiceover so it doesn't really count.

Interesting about the Binary Sunset. It's famously George Lucas' favourite scene from Star Wars (so not as much of an accident as people may think) ... and the music isn't the original that was written for it.

The 'Force theme' that we hear in this cue had originally been envisioned by JW as Obi-Wan's theme (and Ben's Theme is one of its other names). It was Lucas asking Williams to re-use it here that brought this into a more general theme for the Force and destiny.


----------



## JohnG

I guess what I meant to say, more generally, is that some films seem to give permission for, or invite melody, while others don't. 

Since he's so brilliant at theme and variations, I find it hard to avoid John Williams when talking about melody in film music. But bringing him up yanks the discussion toward his popular "Saturday matinee" revival scores, the ones most people instantly think of when his name's invoked. Not too many people think first of "Catch Me if You Can" or "Minority Report" when mentioning Williams; it's usually the big, happy, popular hits.

Some types of film almost beg for melody (sci fi, fairy tale, futuristic, surreal, Epic Films) but, apart from genre, there are of course other constraints. The amount of intrusive / assertive music is also influenced by how blatantly the filmmaker chooses to lead the audience or how much (Dances with Wolves) the filmmaker wants to communicate unambiguous, recognisable, and grand feelings, even when in fact there's just a single rider on the screen. 

Some films in the "usual suspects" genres -- those that normally would sport melody and "big scores" -- use little or no traditional melody, presumably because the filmmaker wants the audience to remain unsettled. "Eden Log," the French sci-fi fable, offers an example.

Some filmmakers and composers consciously reject melody even if they possess skill, narrative courage and clarity of vision. 

Some "less flashy," less heavy-handed films do get very intrusive music, but intrusive in a different way. The music in "Lars and the Real Girl" is very active. It conspicuously, consciously leads the viewer toward a certain frame of mind while he or she is sifting through the bizarre soup of reactions and emotions of the film's subject(s): mental illness, a blow-up sex doll, compassion.

So I guess, as usual, it depends.


----------



## stevenson-again

rpaillot @ Mon Jun 06 said:


> mverta @ Sun Jun 05 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Binary Sunset shot from Star Wars is one of the most iconic images in film history - and in that scene - which is just a guy looking at the horizon - the music alone completely sums up everything about the character, his motivations, and why we should root for him. It's one of the clearest examples of just how evocative great music can be, and yet, when's the last time you remember a shot anything like that, so boldly, unapologetically letting music do what nothing else can do as well? And all by itself! When's the last time a director had the balls, and the composer the skill, to hinge one of the central dramatic moments, and pivotal story points, on nothing but a musical cue alone? I'm not talking about a cue setting a mood; any fool can do that. I'm talking about music of such mastery that it captures not just a place, time, or mood, but the human soul and motivation of a person... Powerful stuff, virtually extinct. Again, anything can set a clear tone and mood. A half-step cluster can set a mood or a tone. But embody the spirit and essence of something as complex as a person and their motivations, in music, in one brilliant, brief summation? That is the stuff of wonder, to me.
> 
> 
> _Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Chevaliers de Sangreal", end scene from da vinci code. Probably my favorite "film music scene" in recent years
Click to expand...


i'm glad you brought that up - the da vinci code. while i have been critical not so much of zimmer but of his affect, he does some amazing stuff from time to time. the da vinci code is fantastic writing, no matter how you look at it. sure - the tavener influence is there but kudos goes to him for picking it as a jumping off point. i saw it only last night, i thought it was an excellent score the first time i heard it and my opinion was confirmed watching the film again. it's excellent in exactly the opposite way the criticism of film music in the article articulated.

but some other music driving picture numbers i could think of is some things in the pixar canon. i have noted those guys know how to use music extremely well and seem to inspire fantastic writing in their composers. how about the montage at the opening of "Up". that is completely silent but for the music telling the story and extraordinarily touching it is too. there is a nice bit from finding nemo when the dialogue drifts into background - you can barely make it out, as the music tells the emotional impact of the story in the dialogue.

i can think of a couple of other cases, but actually mike is quite write broadly in his point. i think too few directors and producers understand how to use music, and that's why some of the scores get so bland.

with respect to zimmer and his 'non-use' of melody, what zimmer attempts to do is try and find a voice, something distinctive, which is not always melody or a theme, but perhaps something abstract to marry to the picture or idea. he goes to enormous lengths to do this and gets pretty experimental in the process. so where he might lack the out and out craft of JW, he makes up for it in striving for a novel 'hook'. i think its really commendable. that it often involves teams of people might make us feel uncomfortable, but ultimately it comes down to his taste and vision and what he goes for, to which he signs his name.

i do really agree though, that far too much of today's film music bland and uninteresting, but the really good stuff is often really good. there is certainly room for good composers to do good work. problem is, getting producers and directors to tell the difference.


----------



## TheUnfinished

I've found myself mostly surprise at how many recent epic blockbusters and super-hero style moves have eschewed the use of a main melody/them for their main character.

Some of them have not been great films, but might have just about been liftend above the others with a theme that people can go home whistling.

Watched Iron Man 2 last night and, whilst I really like some Ramin Djawadi stuff, I can't remember any prominent pieces of music from it. And there's no question that Djawadi is capable, I absolutely love his recent Medal Of Honor soundtrack.


----------



## bluejay

Iron Man 2 is John Debney, not Ramin.


----------



## Guy Bacos

Debney and a lot of AC/DC


----------



## impressions

if zimmer said that, i wonder what williams would say about the new film scores. probably that even their chord progression isn't adequate.

no one cares about melody anymore-and i'm not talking about composers, the audience wants something easy and unremembered, because remembering is HARD! why remember if there's google??
i don't think anyone spends time looking for the essence of music like the masters did. but who gives, i think the audience is too stupid to notice that and its just a bad legacy of music for new film composers.


----------



## TheUnfinished

bluejay @ Mon Jun 06 said:


> Iron Man 2 is John Debney, not Ramin.



I stand corrected... but now need to remember what I watched very recently that had Ramin Djawadi's music. My poor rubbish brain.


----------



## MichaelL

mverta @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> [We have successfully de-coupled quality from success in virtually all aspects of life. One no longer has anything to do with the other._Mike





Absolutely correct. I would take it to a cynical extreme and argue that quality, in our anti-intellectual culture is, in many cases, seen as an obstacle to financial / popular success. 

So...you get McScores.

Michael

PS. Oh ..there we go with the hamburger analogy again!


----------



## Guy Bacos

I am about to change my signature to "_Life is like a hamburger, you never know what you're eating"._


----------



## germancomponist

Guy Bacos @ Mon Jun 06 said:


> I am about to change my signature to "_Life is like a hamburger, you never know what you're eating"._



The same as in the cat food. :mrgreen:


----------



## Guy Bacos

You eat catfood? :shock:


----------



## germancomponist

Oh nooooo, smile.

In Germany, when only 4% in the catfood is beef, then it is allowed to sell it as "beef for the cats". Noone knows about the rest...... .


----------



## Mr. Anxiety

BlueJay brings up an interesting point about the music for Binary Sunset.

If what's in the film is not the original cue from JW........ then what did he write using his first instincts? I would bet a lot of money that JW's first instincts are probably his strongest.

Hmmm..........?

Mr A


----------



## TheUnfinished

Mr. Anxiety @ Mon Jun 06 said:


> BlueJay brings up an interesting point about the music for Binary Sunset.
> 
> If what's in the film is not the original cue from JW........ then what did he write using his first instincts? I would bet a lot of money that JW's first instincts are probably his strongest.
> 
> Hmmm..........?
> 
> Mr A



I have the bumper edition trilogy soundtrack and it has the alternate cue. And it wouldn't be anywhere near as moving a moment with the original version in my opinion.


----------



## Mr. Anxiety

Interesting.......

So we need to give credit to the director for having the vision to pick this piece of music for this scene.

I'm certainly not trying to dilute JW's contribution at all, I'm only trying to give credit to the collaborative nature of this craft, and how a scene like this can achieve "Iconic" status for us composers, even though the cue was not written for this scene originally.

Makes for another interesting discussion, don't you think?

Mr A


----------



## TheUnfinished

It pained me to suggest Lucas may have got something right. Must have been an accident.


----------



## MichaelL

This is a quote from a client regarding at melodic and dramatic sample that I submitted, just to take their temperature and gauge their thinking:


"this piece would not work because it is so strident and commands too much attention"

So much for melody.

_Michael


----------



## JohnG

The pain.


----------



## poseur

JohnG @ Mon Jun 06 said:


> The pain.



the horror,
the degradation.....

:wink: 

dt / spltrcl


----------



## José Herring

MichaelL @ Mon Jun 06 said:


> This is a quote from a client regarding at melodic and dramatic sample that I submitted, just to take their temperature and gauge their thinking:
> 
> 
> "this piece would not work because it is so strident and commands too much attention"
> 
> So much for melody.
> 
> _Michael



I don't know who you're working for, but I usually only get those kind of comments from people that are pretty inexperienced. Just a tiny bit up the ladder and you'll get the opposite. Kind of a crazy business that way.

And, I agree with what Poseur said earlier about melody. Sometimes I feel that melody isn't recognized as such by composers because it doesn't fit into their predefined ideas of what melody is. I recall playing a piece by Ravel for fl, cl, harp and string quartet. The striking thing about this piece is that though it's chock full of some pretty obvious melodies, after some years the only melody that stuck with me was this little two note thingy that last for not more than a bar, that I'm sure nobody would even recognize as a melody but there it is, totally beautiful, simple.


----------



## MichaelL

JohnG @ Mon Jun 06 said:


> The pain.



Hi John.

It wasn't that painful. I threw an existing piece in front of them, as a sample, to get a handle on their thinking. So...I know to dial it back for them, and all is cool.

But I think it illustrates the thinking that melody "gets in the way." 

Maybe we can blame Muzak, and the like, for providing a constant din /soundtrack to every moment of our lives. As a result people have come to view music as wallpaper. It's just something "there." They don't listen anymore. It's too much work.

CHeers,

Michael


----------



## stevenson-again

The thing is called a 'hook'. It's a crude term mo generally associated with pop music but it applies equally to film music or even concert music.

It is the central idea around which you build a score. It does not have to be a melody - it could be an instrument, an ostinato, a sound, a chord change even. Whatever it is, it should try be unique or distinct such as a memroable melody can be. The problem is when you don't have that distinct idea is you end up with something generic. Something that sounds like something that has been used in that sort of situation before. That's the lack of imagination bemoaned by the composers in the article. It does not have to be a melody specifically. What is also the truth is that strong melodic ideas seem not to be in vogue (I have noticed this too) and that is to be lamented. 

Strong thematic ideas are great ways of giving a film a voice. It is noticeable that some of the most memorable films have distinctive scores.


----------



## Guy Bacos




----------



## Ashermusic

MichaelL @ Mon Jun 06 said:


> JohnG @ Mon Jun 06 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The pain.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi John.
> 
> to get a handle on their thinking.
> CHeers,
> 
> Michael
Click to expand...


i am not sure that "thinking" is the correct word :D


----------



## MichaelL

Ashermusic @ Mon Jun 06 said:


> [
> i am not sure that "thinking" is the correct word :D



Since when does thinking have anything to do with anything?

Beside that, I actually have it on good authority that melody was already on the way out in 1964, when Paul Revere and the Raiders tried in vain to warn the British not invade the US via the Ed Sullivan Show. 

I swear it's true. I didn't mess up the history of popular culture. :lol:


----------



## Ashermusic

MichaelL @ Mon Jun 06 said:


> Ashermusic @ Mon Jun 06 said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> i am not sure that "thinking" is the correct word :D
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since when does thinking have anything to do with anything?
> 
> Beside that, I actually have it on good authority that melody was already on the way out in 1964, when Paul Revere and the Raiders tried in vain to warn the British not invade the US via the Ed Sullivan Show.
> 
> I swear it's true. I didn't mess up the history of popular culture. :lol:
Click to expand...


"Kicks just keep getting harder to find."


----------



## bluejay

Mr. Anxiety @ Mon Jun 06 said:


> Interesting.......
> 
> So we need to give credit to the director for having the vision to pick this piece of music for this scene.
> 
> I'm certainly not trying to dilute JW's contribution at all, I'm only trying to give credit to the collaborative nature of this craft, and how a scene like this can achieve "Iconic" status for us composers, even though the cue was not written for this scene originally.
> 
> Makes for another interesting discussion, don't you think?
> 
> Mr A



Thanks, this was definitely my point. What is now considered an iconic musical moment was due to the director tampering with the composer's vision at the time. I also agree that the original cue isn't as interesting.


----------



## rpaillot

impressions @ Mon Jun 06 said:


> no one cares about melody anymore-and i'm not talking about composers, the audience wants something easy and unremembered, because remembering is HARD! why remember if there's google??
> i don't think anyone spends time looking for the essence of music like the masters did. but who gives, i think the audience is too stupid to notice that and its just a bad legacy of music for new film composers.



On the contrary, I think the audience LOVES melody. Just see the top soundtracks polls. People love soundtracks that can be remembered, soundtracks they can sing in the shower. Simple and effective melodies.

IMO the people to blame are most of the time the musicians themselves , I hear so many composers telling me the role of a soundtrack is only to serve the movie , nothing more. I really dont like when composers think like this. For me , the role of a soundtrack is to serve the movie but also to give strong emotions to the audience , and finally to be beautiful and listenable outside the movie. 

Anybody can make a good film music. A suspens scene ? simply open an omnisphere pad. Emotional scene ? string pad doing block chords and some high piano note à la thomas newman. It should be good to "serve the movie".... thats how young composers think.


----------



## noiseboyuk

bluejay @ Tue Jun 07 said:


> Mr. Anxiety @ Mon Jun 06 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting.......
> 
> So we need to give credit to the director for having the vision to pick this piece of music for this scene.
> 
> I'm certainly not trying to dilute JW's contribution at all, I'm only trying to give credit to the collaborative nature of this craft, and how a scene like this can achieve "Iconic" status for us composers, even though the cue was not written for this scene originally.
> 
> Makes for another interesting discussion, don't you think?
> 
> Mr A
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, this was definitely my point. What is now considered an iconic musical moment was due to the director tampering with the composer's vision at the time. I also agree that the original cue isn't as interesting.
Click to expand...


Yeah, +1. I dunno - my Lucas theory is kinda neat but perhaps it's also true that he was just on fire in 1976. I mean Empire is a good movie, don't get me wrong, but Star Wars has always felt like a more complete film to me, and he went downhill after then for sure. 

What's interesting about the history of the scoring for that is how the themes were used. It was The Force theme that ended up being chosen, which I guess Williams didn't initially consider as it isn't the obvious storytelling point when you view it cold. And one more point... I'm not sure in this particular case how much the audience identifies that theme with The Force, maybe cos that scene is the most prominent use of. I don't know if even on repeated viewings people think "ah ha, the Force is pulling him", they're more likely thinking "it's a beautiful twin sunset be he longs to be out there in the stars rather than on terra firma" and the music just reflects that longing somehow. So perhaps there's case to be made of occasionally just breaking the rules and saying "what the hell" if it works!


----------



## bluejay

Well again, don't forget that Williams originally considered that as Ben's theme. Lucas' decision to use it there was what actually ended up making the theme represent the more abstract notion of The Force and Luke's destiny.

I also think A New Hope is my favourite of the movies.


----------



## noiseboyuk

bluejay @ Tue Jun 07 said:


> Well again, don't forget that Williams originally considered that as Ben's theme. Lucas' decision to use it there was what actually ended up making the theme represent the more abstract notion of The Force and Luke's destiny.



Ah, forgot / didn't know that!

There's probably a thread to be had regarding themes that changed purpose during the making of a film - I remember John Powell talking about this in Shrek, where a theme swapped characters or something.


----------



## Ashermusic

rpaillot @ Tue Jun 07 said:


> impressions @ Mon Jun 06 said:
> 
> 
> 
> no one cares about melody anymore-and i'm not talking about composers, the audience wants something easy and unremembered, because remembering is HARD! why remember if there's google??
> i don't think anyone spends time looking for the essence of music like the masters did. but who gives, i think the audience is too stupid to notice that and its just a bad legacy of music for new film composers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On the contrary, I think the audience LOVES melody. Just see the top soundtracks polls. People love soundtracks that can be remembered, soundtracks they can sing in the shower. Simple and effective melodies.
> 
> IMO the people to blame are most of the time the musicians themselves , I hear so many composers telling me the role of a soundtrack is only to serve the movie , nothing more. I really dont like when composers think like this. For me , the role of a soundtrack is to serve the movie but also to give strong emotions to the audience , and finally to be beautiful and listenable outside the movie.
> 
> Anybody can make a good film music. A suspens scene ? simply open an omnisphere pad. Emotional scene ? string pad doing block chords and some high piano note à la thomas newman. It should be good to "serve the movie".... thats how young composers think.
Click to expand...



What working film composers say is that the role of a soundtrack is _primarily_ to serve the movie, not only, and it IS. If it does not serve the movie really well, it is useless regardless of how much anyone likes it when they play it on their iPod.

As for "give strong emotions to the audience" that is the same thing as serving the movie, unless the director does not want the audience to respond emotionally to his film, a highly unlikely scenario.

Despite all the tools, no it is simply not true that "Anybody can make a good film music." Anyone can make film music that follows your description but unless the person doing it has the skill, talent, and training of a Thomas Newman it will neither sound like or work as well with the film as a T.N. core and that is precisely what we need to keep telling young composers, no matter how tired they get of hearing it.


----------



## MichaelL

Ashermusic @ Mon Jun 06 said:


> [
> "Kicks just keep getting harder to find."




OK Jay --we're officially men of a certain age! :lol: 

But, as long as Caribou Barbie keeps rewriting history, there'll be plenty of kicks.

And, you being from New England, must have just :roll: 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/0 ... 72335.html


----------



## Ashermusic

MichaelL @ Tue Jun 07 said:


> Ashermusic @ Mon Jun 06 said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> "Kicks just keep getting harder to find."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OK Jay --we're officially men of a certain age! :lol:
> 
> But, as long as Caribou Barbie keeps rewriting history, there'll be plenty of kicks.
> 
> And, you being from New England, must have just :roll:
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/0 ... 72335.html
Click to expand...


Palin is a functional illiterate.


----------



## poseur

Ashermusic @ Tue Jun 07 said:


> MichaelL @ Tue Jun 07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ashermusic @ Mon Jun 06 said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> "Kicks just keep getting harder to find."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OK Jay --we're officially men of a certain age! :lol:
> 
> But, as long as Caribou Barbie keeps rewriting history, there'll be plenty of kicks.
> 
> And, you being from New England, must have just :roll:
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/0 ... 72335.html
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Palin is a functional illiterate.
Click to expand...

¿huh?
*¿wtf?*, jay!

i love michael palin; he seems awfully goshdarned articulate & erudite, to me.....
..... and simply brimming with melodic hooks.

:roll: 

dt


----------



## David Story

The killer feigns surprise:
"Where has Melody gone?"


----------



## Nathan Allen Pinard

A leading tone in a chord progression can be considered a melody, albiet a simple one. 

None of the examples I've seen in this thread (including inception) shows a lack of melody.

Just because a particular set of leading tones follow the same rhythm as the chord progressions being way more simple, doesn't mean it's not a melody. The melody is depicted by the composer...there really is no other definition than that to me.


----------



## ozmorphasis

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Fri Jun 24 said:


> A leading tone in a chord progression can be considered a melody, albiet a simple one.
> 
> None of the examples I've seen in this thread (including inception) shows a lack of melody.
> 
> Just because a particular set of leading tones follow the same rhythm as the chord progressions being way more simple, doesn't mean it's not a melody. The melody is depicted by the composer...there really is no other definition than that to me.



This is true in a strict sense. No one can argue against it, and a series of quarter notes conveys a rhythm, as does a series of whole notes. 

However, if melody is what you are turned on by, then your standards for what constitutes a melody worth talking about might be different than that, the same way that if you are into rhythmic interplay, variety, and groove, then a minimalistic piece that only uses whole notes may not do it for you the way that West African drumming does. 

In other words, I can see where people are coming from depending on their tastes and interests when it comes to the elaboration and development of certain parameters in music.


----------



## Ed

See this I agree with 



ozmorphasis @ Sun Jun 26 said:


> Nathan Allen Pinard @ Fri Jun 24 said:
> 
> 
> 
> A leading tone in a chord progression can be considered a melody, albiet a simple one.
> 
> None of the examples I've seen in this thread (including inception) shows a lack of melody.
> 
> Just because a particular set of leading tones follow the same rhythm as the chord progressions being way more simple, doesn't mean it's not a melody. The melody is depicted by the composer...there really is no other definition than that to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is true in a strict sense. No one can argue against it, and a series of quarter notes conveys a rhythm, as does a series of whole notes.
> 
> However, if melody is what you are turned on by, then your standards for what constitutes a melody worth talking about might be different than that, the same way that if you are into rhythmic interplay, variety, and groove, then a minimalistic piece that only uses whole notes may not do it for you the way that West African drumming does.
> 
> In other words, I can see where people are coming from depending on their tastes and interests when it comes to the elaboration and development of certain parameters in music.
Click to expand...


----------



## David Story

Let's call white "rainbow". That's how we'll depict white when we write. Depending on their tastes and interests, people will understand rainbow simply means white. Sometimes, of course, except when we actually mean rainbow. Hey, it's all just colors, right?
It's not like anyone every used color names before, we can call it what we like!


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

FWIW, boise and goils, I've just been told that a big US cable exec on an un-named project of mine, "Hates melody!". My music could be stripped if I go too far in that direction. Watcha gonna do?

And that, my friends, is how the dominoes fall.

PS: I've been hearing that refrain for years. It's just a drag that it's so draconian.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

FWIW PT II,

I really feel that it's a fad. People pass it on, melody is bad, you wouldn't want to be seen with her. Everybody's shunning melody, what's _your_ problem?! 

Which, as we know, is bullcrap, all the good films have oodles of melodies/fragments. But 'those who know' have it all worked out: sound design + synths + percs. Soft, VERY LOUD. Slow, fast. I sometimes wonder if, in some cases, this aversion masks an inability to speak to melody, harmony, so it's all about mood, sound and tempo.


----------



## midphase

Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Jun 27 said:


> I really feel that it's a fad. People pass it on, melody is bad, you wouldn't want to be seen with her. Everybody's shunning melody, what's _your_ problem?!



I dunno...seems to me like Melody is still pretty hot....I'd do her! o-[][]-o 

http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/melody-gardot.aspx


----------



## Nathan Allen Pinard

There are projects out there where a simple melody helps the project more than a complicated one.

I can think of when I did the OST for Gemini Rue. Everything was simplistic, yet there were a few pieces that did have melody. But he rejected a few tracks, and I didn't understand that until I played the finished game.

The simplistic soundtrack made complete sense. And if I had done a more complicated soundtrack it would've possibly ruined the atmosphere. Most of the comments in the game review talk about the music enhancing the atmosphere perfectly, and "not getting in the way or being too distracting"

Now Zimmer has fairly simple themes compared to someone like John Williams, but he really DOES work on them. His themes are some of the best I've heard when you think of The Rock, Crimson Tide, Gladiator, Prince of Egypt and the Lion King.

While Batman Begins and Inception had very simple main themes, the overall score (at least with Batman Begins) had OTHER themes that were not 2 note themes.


----------



## Dave Connor

I think Ned has it right in that it's a "fad." There has been a trend in film against "lyrical" melody. But there are still themes of different sorts. What's popular is "textures" most notably in strings and of a minimalist nature.

In any case one shouldn't forget the type of melody Star Wars re-inroduced in the 70's was considered passe at that time (the film itself is a nod to 30's movie serials.) Lyrical melodies could return at anytime and have never really gone away but just grown scarce.


----------



## guayalex

I like Nobuo Uematsus "poetic Definition" of Melody most from the ones I've heard so far:

"The Melody is the Soul of the piece" 

I'm open for exceptions though. But the recent scores doesn't convince me. Maybe I'm old fashioned...


----------



## handz

choc0thrax @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> Are we sure Zimmer isn't just joking? He's a smart guy, he's fully aware that he's the one who created this problem and killed film music.



That´s what I thought when I saw this - "he is joking right? He is the one who killed film music with his orchestral eurodance..." 

Yeah it is sad, Where is Goldsmith, Where is Rosza, Where is Silvestri....blah blah, and so on, but we could also ask - Where are good movies that deserve nice melodic music, not those pirates from disneyland and other crap. Best movie music I heard in last months was in Melancholia - and this was classic good old Wagner! o/~


----------



## David Story

CONTINUED

"Melody was last seen about the time you entered the theater, Mr.Z"


"You can't talk like that to Mr.Z!"


----------



## JohnG

I may be in the minority here, but actually in general Mr. Zimmer's scores are full of melody. In fact, I think of his compositional style -- which at this point is oversimplifying -- as, primarily, song-based (melody and accompaniment).

Besides, he's written in a wider range now, even though he's constrained by the mostly-popular films that he's scored. 

Being such a colossal success does create expectations that one thwarts at one's risk. Even for him.

I used to see Danny Elfman as one kind of composer only but then I heard "Dolores Claiborne" and was completely floored. The same guy who wrote all that circus stuff.

I am a big fan of Michael Nyman's and some of the more academic composers, but Mr. Zimmer is still a young guy. I am curious to see where he goes.


----------



## Andrew Christie

Hans Zimmer writes great melodies. Maybe not as 'flourishing' as say, John Williams, but they are still melodies. It seems that some folks here are determining melody by 'lots of notes with heavy contours'.

The score that he won his Oscar for, "The Lion King" is full of beautiful tunes. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhMUvhIAPtY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOf78z3Hi4U

And I don't care what anyone else thinks, the music to all Pirates of the Caribbean movies rocks! :D

I'm totally lost if this isn't a melody:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttQjm-8OITE

or this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5OlsAIkCrY

Cheers o-[][]-o 
Anders


----------



## David Story

Those are good, but let's be fair. He's A Pirate is Klaus Badelt. 
Lion King is full of great music from many writers.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110357/fullcredits#cast

And HZ certainly produced those scores.


----------



## Andrew Christie

David Story @ Wed Jun 29 said:


> Those are good, but let's be fair. He's A Pirate is Klaus Badelt.



Really? I always thought it was Hans' themes which he gave Klaus to score with.

Have you heard his demo?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns6vzMh1o0A


----------



## David Story

A lot of wonderful artists make those demos at RC


----------



## vlado hudec

JohnG @ Tue Jun 28 said:


> I may be in the minority here, but actually in general Mr. Zimmer's scores are full of melody.



100% agree, I've listened soundtracks from Pearl Harbour and Gladiator yesterday, there are so much emotions, to almost makes me cry. I love Zimmer's music much more than Wiliams, these guys have totally different style of writing, if I could compare those styles. Zimmer is like rock music, Wiliams more jazz and I like rock the most


----------



## Andrew Christie

David Story @ Wed Jun 29 said:


> Lion King is full of great music from many writers.
> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110357/fullcredits#cast
> 
> And HZ certainly produced those scores.



I might not have read thoroughly enough, though I can only spot one "composer: additional music" credit (yes I'm aware there was probably more). Sure there's a shit load of orchestrators and arrangers, but we're talking specifically about melody here (and I don't mean counter melodies added by orchestrators/arrangers lol).



David Story @ Wed Jun 29 said:


> A lot of wonderful artists make those demos at RC



OK, not trying to stir this in to another one of 'those HZ' discussions as I see all too often lol, but it sounds like you're implying that he does absolutely nothing.

Anyway sorry folks didn't wanna hijack the thread in that direction. 

Peace! 0oD 
Anders


----------



## Nathan Allen Pinard

> might not have read thoroughly enough, though I can only spot one "composer: additional music" credit (yes I'm aware there was probably more). Sure there's a [email protected]#t load of orchestrators and arrangers, but we're talking specifically about melody here (and I don't mean counter melodies added by orchestrators/arrangers lol).



True, and with Zimmer he DOES write the music. The guy writes mockups for the directors before the orchestra is even hired. He writes LIKE WE DO.

That being said, the simplistic melody thing is not something new. It occurs in classical music as well.

I mean come on, is "O Fortuna" really THAT interesting of a melody? Or what about some of the Planets movements?


----------



## Ed

David Story @ Tue Jun 28 said:


> Those are good, but let's be fair. He's A Pirate is Klaus Badelt. .



no it isn't, Klaus only arranged Zimmer's long music suite he wrote for the film. Klaus scored the film, but with the style, instrumentation and themes Zimmer already wrote


----------



## Ed

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Wed Jun 29 said:


> True, and with Zimmer he DOES write the music.



Also, take a look at this:

http://wherestheorchestra.com/2011/01/l ... t-journal/

Watch that video and tell me what you think of Alan Ball when you hear that piano version and what the orchestrator in the video does with it.


----------



## LTSF

lux @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> it sounds like "stop ripping my ostinatos and do your own fuckin melodies dudes!"


Resurrecting this thread.

I have a question about this. In terms of intellectual property, can these ground patterns be copyrighted?

At a more precise level, can the general outline of specific variations/improvs be copyrighted? Because a couple hundred years back copyright laws were very vague and relied mostly on the common sense of the judges/public. Most of those La Folia variations composed across 200 years sounded like small alterations of the ones that already existed.


----------



## jlb

Threads like this are the reason I was amazed he took the time to post on here. Please do not give up on this forum Hanz! You have written some great tunes!

Jlb


----------



## dcoscina

I guess I've mellowed or gotten some greater perspective as I age. I definitely have been more vocal about my growing respect for Zimmer trying new things out as of late. I like a large portion of his work and probably there's at least 1 or 2 cues from every score he's penned that I really enjoy.

I do think he composes melodies and themes and never thought any different. I have to say, I like what he did with Batman. Yes, it's a minor third, but obviously there's stuff he's built around it and he has secondary themes that contrast it. Of any film of 2012, The Dark Knight rises is the most anticipated by me. I also liked what he did with Inception as well. 

While Sherlock Holmes isn't my cup of tea personally, I did find it very effective in the film and it has a quasi Rota-esque vibe to it. In fact, I think I'd give it another whirl. It is charming.

If I could ask Hans one thing, I would ask him whether he likes scoring action scenes or the quieter more dramatic ones. I have always found his slower material quite excellent whether it's parts of Last Samurai, Gladiator, Lion King, Rain Man, Thelma & Louise, Thin Red Line, etc etc. I don't know if he'd say it's his German brooding side but I definitely feel the emotion behind those more reflective cues.

I'm just curious. 

Anyhow, I kind of hope Zimmer's participation on this forum sets a new precedence and other composers might feel inclined to drop in and lend helpful advice.


----------



## jleckie

It's not Zimmer who stuck a fork in themes- it's John Ottman...


----------



## MikeH

jleckie @ Mon Feb 20 said:


> It's not Zimmer who stuck a fork in themes- it's John Ottman...



Seriously? John Ottman is one of the more melodic composers around.


----------



## Freds

gsilbers @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> hmmm..
> 
> so then hans zimmer went ahead and wrote dark knight which the joker theme is ONE note going up in pitch.
> 
> and inception which is 2 notes.
> 
> 
> i think the whole melody thing is just engraved to us by filmschool composers who rely too much on melody because they did not have a computer.
> 
> now you can do many other things sonically to convey a films sound.
> 
> aka: like the hans zimmer examples above.



For me is very simple: 

Most composers with a good palette of sounds can make a score without melodies, but not everybody can create a good melody.

You should be able to do both. Depending on the style of the project one or the other can be more appropriate, but if you only limit yourself to composing non-melodic or non-thematic scores, you will be also limiting yourself to certain kind of projects.
Some big names can afford to do this, but if you want your music to stand out of the crowd you should be able to compose a good melody. It will help you to have more flexibility and your music will also be more memorable.

Everybody hides their weaknesses, and for this you can sometimes develop other areas that make you more unique, but being "melody handicapped" really puts you in a disadvantage.


----------



## Saxer

the lack of melodies is the result of the mockup culture.

the most difficult thing to do with samples is to produce a convincing melody performance. the more intimate and emotional the more difficult.

even if you record a real orchestra you only get a go for the recording when the mockup is convincing. today there is no excuse when a mockup doesn't sound like a big production, even if you comment it with: "the melodies will sound great with real musicians"! haha... next one please.

so we record again and again what sounds great with samples anyway (and sometimes even better): staccato ostinatos, drones, big chords, textures, prerecorded musical efx and tons of drums.


----------



## Freds

It is more difficult to create a good convincing melody with samples, but is very doable and many of the newer libraries can do it very well thanks to all the legato scripts, round robins, quality of programming, etc.

I agree that composing with a mockup will affect the sounds you chose and the way you orchestrate. Sometimes I find myself avoiding using too many woodwinds because I don't like my WW samples too much, for example. But I don't think this is the reason that people won't compose melodies.

In a culture where thanks to technology anyone with a computer can create something (music, video, pictures, etc) you will see lots of people relying too much on their software too create. Sometimes is just a lack of basic skills, but sometimes this helps to create things that wouldn't have been possible otherwise. 
So imo this is a blessing, but composers should be careful of not relying too much on their technology to create something. Instead is better to spend more time expanding your music vocabulary. 

Sorry if I sound too preachy, but I'm a bit shocked that some people (in a music forum!) see melodic writing skills as and obsolete music skill.


----------



## JohnG

It can be hard to sell a melody with samples. 

I don't think I'm alone in being effectively required to mock up practically everything before it gets recorded. As a result, the mockup insinuates itself into a decisive role in musical creation. 

Melodies can be quite awkward to sell with samples, especially slow or expressive lines that a performer could nurture into something glorious. So, better get that modwheel moving, I guess. 

As to whether anyone killed melody -- nobody did, least of all HZ. They are all over the place in his films, even if there are examples where they are sparse. 

Maybe that's one reason why he's so keen to have his own samples and seems willing to go to any length to perfect them?


----------



## Freds

Agreed. I have the feeling that some people are defining what a melody is differently than others, and that's why there's so much disagreement.

For me is also very hard to find a good score with no melodies. For example, some people refer to batman and Inception as examples of non melodic scores, but I see great melodies in both. Maybe not as long and "singable" as other Zimmer scores, but sometimes simple and short melodies are the hardest to compose.

For me an example of a good contemporary score without melodies would be Drive.

I think some people are limiting the concept of what a melody is to what a composer like John Williams would do, but things are not black and white. Considering that a melody is old fashion or obsolete because only composers like Williams do it is just nonsense.


----------



## Saxer

Freds @ 22.2.2012 said:


> It is more difficult to create a good convincing melody with samples, but is very doable and many of the newer libraries can do it very well thanks to all the legato scripts, round robins, quality of programming, etc.


that's right! but that's a newer development and so i think there's hope for the future. as far as it becomes easier to mockup emotional lines melodies will come back. at least i hope so!


----------



## Daryl

Saxer @ Thu Feb 23 said:


> Freds @ 22.2.2012 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is more difficult to create a good convincing melody with samples, but is very doable and many of the newer libraries can do it very well thanks to all the legato scripts, round robins, quality of programming, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> that's right! but that's a newer development and so i think there's hope for the future. as far as it becomes easier to mockup emotional lines melodies will come back. at least i hope so!
Click to expand...

I don't see that new products will necessarily help with programming melodies. You either have the musicianship to do it, or you don't. All a new product can do is give you yet another opportunity to write to the samples.

D


----------



## Ed

Daryl @ Thu Feb 23 said:


> Saxer @ Thu Feb 23 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Freds @ 22.2.2012 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is more difficult to create a good convincing melody with samples, but is very doable and many of the newer libraries can do it very well thanks to all the legato scripts, round robins, quality of programming, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> that's right! but that's a newer development and so i think there's hope for the future. as far as it becomes easier to mockup emotional lines melodies will come back. at least i hope so!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't see that new products will necessarily help with programming melodies. You either have the musicianship to do it, or you don't. All a new product can do is give you yet another opportunity to write to the samples.
> 
> D
Click to expand...


Apparently you missed the point Daryl. :roll: More realistic samples allow you to play more things that sound good. Or do you write whatever you want knowing its going to sound like crap? Kind of like how if you dont have a virtuosi violin player, you probably shouldn't highlight how bad he is by writing virtuoso violin lines.


----------



## Daryl

Ed @ Thu Feb 23 said:


> Daryl @ Thu Feb 23 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saxer @ Thu Feb 23 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Freds @ 22.2.2012 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is more difficult to create a good convincing melody with samples, but is very doable and many of the newer libraries can do it very well thanks to all the legato scripts, round robins, quality of programming, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> that's right! but that's a newer development and so i think there's hope for the future. as far as it becomes easier to mockup emotional lines melodies will come back. at least i hope so!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't see that new products will necessarily help with programming melodies. You either have the musicianship to do it, or you don't. All a new product can do is give you yet another opportunity to write to the samples.
> 
> D
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Apparently you missed the point Daryl. :roll: More realistic samples allow you to play more things that sound good. Or do you write whatever you want knowing its going to sound like crap? Kind of like how if you dont have a virtuosi violin player, you probably shouldn't highlight how bad he is by writing virtuoso violin lines.
Click to expand...

Violin Solo is a specific example. There are no new products on the horizon that will help there. There are some that might make things better, but then we're just talking about which turd smells better.

I don't write anything that sounds crap. Then again, I know what I'm doing and have the requisite skills.

D


----------



## Ed

Daryl @ Thu Feb 23 said:


> Violin Solo is a specific example. There are no new products on the horizon that will help there. There are some that might make things better, but then we're just talking about which turd smells better.
> 
> I don't write anything that sounds crap. Then again, I know what I'm doing and have the requisite skills.
> 
> D



Seriously? You're really not getting this? :| 

So all samples sound equally good at playing all lines? So GM violin sounds just as good as VSL solo violin, I wonder why anyone would want to use it. VSl Solo violin doesnt help realism at all, all those legato intervals, pointless. I wonder why they bothered to sample it so deeply..

. I have no idea why you want to be so stubborn about this kind of thing.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

Sorry if I'm repeating something that has been said earlier in this thread, but I haven't read all 6 pages.

I think some of the answer can be found in Pop music, a style that film music has always tried to follow. The fact is that the place of melody in Pop has diminished greatly from the days of Hall and Oates, Steely Dan, etc. Yes, we still have melody in power ballads, but that's not what inspires/drive film music. It's the stuff with rhythm, like Rock, Alternative, Hip Hop, Ambient, Techno - groove and ambiance-based music.

Also, there has been more exposure to music from places where melody is not the most important element, like parts of Asia, Africa; where it's also much about texture.

Finally, since most young people are media-drowned, history-poor, gaming zombies, the music needs to ape the ambiance track and blast them into paying attention. o=? _-)


----------



## Daryl

Ned Bouhalassa @ Thu Feb 23 said:


> Sorry if I'm repeating something that has been said earlier in this thread, but I haven't read all 6 pages.
> 
> I think some of the answer can be found in Pop music, a style that film music has always tried to follow. The fact is that the place of melody in Pop has diminished greatly from the days of Hall and Oates, Steely Dan, etc. Yes, we still have melody in power ballads, but that's not what inspires/drive film music. It's the stuff with rhythm, like Rock, Alternative, Hip Hop, Ambient, Techno - groove and ambiance-based music.
> 
> Also, there has been more exposure to music from places where melody is not the most important element, like parts of Asia, Africa; where it's also much about texture.
> 
> Finally, since most young people are media-drowned, history-poor, gaming zombies, the music needs to ape the ambiance track and blast them into paying attention. o=? _-)


Ned, I think you make some very good points.

I also think that part of the problem is that an early picture lock seems to be very rare these days. With directors and producers wanting "flexibility" to re-cut right up until the last second, melody can really screw that up. The ideal for them is everything in the same key, and just a rhythmic background to cut. As long as everything is on separate stems it makes re-cuts easier to deal with for the music editor. It also makes for fairly boring music a lot of the time. :( 

D


----------



## JohnG

unfortunately, often true.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

I have a love/hate relationship with stems, and their (sometimes) misuse:

:evil: : they sometimes ruin an otherwise correct mix of elements, for eg leading to just a rhythm track playing, when it was never intended to be solo.

 : it means that when a cue doesn't work when combined with all the other sonic elements, they can still use part of it instead of nothing at all, meaning that more of my music is u$$ed.

PS: that said, I have often been pleasantly surprised with a mixer's selection of a few stems instead of the whole mix.


----------



## EastWest Lurker

Ed @ Thu Feb 23 said:


> Daryl @ Thu Feb 23 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Violin Solo is a specific example. There are no new products on the horizon that will help there. There are some that might make things better, but then we're just talking about which turd smells better.
> 
> I don't write anything that sounds crap. Then again, I know what I'm doing and have the requisite skills.
> 
> D
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously? You're really not getting this? :|
> 
> So all samples sound equally good at playing all lines? So GM violin sounds just as good as VSL solo violin, I wonder why anyone would want to use it. VSl Solo violin doesnt help realism at all, all those legato intervals, pointless. I wonder why they bothered to sample it so deeply..
> 
> . I have no idea why you want to be so stubborn about this kind of thing.
Click to expand...


This is easy to understand. Daryl is saying that none of them sound acceptable to him, only degrees of unacceptable, so he will not use any of them but will hire a real player instead.

We may or may not not agree but his position is entirely clear and defensible.


----------



## Freds

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Feb 23 said:


> Ed @ Thu Feb 23 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daryl @ Thu Feb 23 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Violin Solo is a specific example. There are no new products on the horizon that will help there. There are some that might make things better, but then we're just talking about which turd smells better.
> 
> I don't write anything that sounds crap. Then again, I know what I'm doing and have the requisite skills.
> 
> D
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously? You're really not getting this? :|
> 
> So all samples sound equally good at playing all lines? So GM violin sounds just as good as VSL solo violin, I wonder why anyone would want to use it. VSl Solo violin doesnt help realism at all, all those legato intervals, pointless. I wonder why they bothered to sample it so deeply..
> 
> . I have no idea why you want to be so stubborn about this kind of thing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is easy to understand. Daryl is saying that none of them sound acceptable to him, only degrees of unacceptable, so he will not use any of them but will hire a real player instead.
> 
> We may or may not not agree but his position is entirely clear and defensible.
Click to expand...

Correct, I think he was misunderstood. 

However, all this argument might be correct if the final product will feature these sounds and not at least one live player, but the point was that mockups and the need to have them are to blame. This would assume directors have such a high standard that they won't tolerate hearing a fake instrument playing a melody and this is not true, at least most of the cases. For mockup purposes the technology available is more than enough to play an idea to a director. In fact, many times it can be so convincing that you will have to explain that using real players will sound better, so they don't reduce your budget!

Yes, if it's gonna end on the mix you should be careful of what sounds you are gonna use. But again, this is not a reason to avoid melodies. There are many convincing options.


----------



## David Story

+1
Writing and composing with melody takes a lot of time, effort and talent. It's remarkably different from engineering samples. A great melody works on many different instruments, including a GM piano. That's part of why it's great.

There are many factors that are depriving this generation of melody, but the most import one in this discussion, IMO, is composers unwilling to advocate for melody. Those that do; eg McCreary, Edmonson, and Horner, to name three, do very well. But their attention is on composition, not production, during the writing phase.

There have always been brilliant technicians who are successful in music, just a bit too many in recent years to keep the melodies flowing. So it's not samples, but their overuse, that contributes to the demoting of melody.

The funny part is that the flood of non-melodic music results in an emperor's new clothes effect, where simple motifs or voice leading may get called melodies. 

The sad part is that producers now have to become reacquainted with the charm and energy and coolness of melodic music. But there's a new advocacy group that will help with that. Looks to be fun!


----------



## Ed

Once again..... it is obvious and every honest composer that uses samples will know that its exactly the same as having bunch of poor musicians to play your music. If you have a musician that cant play like a virtuoso, you *do *have to deliberately stay away from things he or she cant pull off well. 

Same with samples. No one is going to thank you if a sample based composition sounds like crap because your samples cant deal with the lines you're writing for them. And directors and producers get scared if you say... _"it may sound like shit now, but trust me its going to sound great on the day!!!!"_... especially if their score isnt being recorded with real players anyway which is what so many jobs involve. (thats a joke, did you notice?) 

Now whether this has anything to do with this general topic of "melody" and "where its gone" I don't know and I dont much care to speculate. All I do know is that better samples help us write different stuff that sounds good or better than it did before, some of that will be melodies that previously wouldnt have sounded good or stood out as sampled (read: bad).

Just as with being able to afford to record a member of the LSO verses a member of a high school orchestra, you're gonna need to check what you're writing for them if you give a crap about what the final result will sound like. So you know you can write more intricate stuff for the LSO guy to play, but not the high school musician. get it? No? Ah well, everyone that matters does and I find it really weird how often I need to argue the bleedin obvious.

o-[][]-o
I've had a few drinks. Cheers. :D


----------



## noiseboyuk

David Story @ Fri Feb 24 said:


> +1
> Writing and composing with melody takes a lot of time, effort and talent. It's remarkably different from engineering samples. A great melody works on many different instruments, including a GM piano. That's part of why it's great.
> 
> There are many factors that are depriving this generation of melody, but the most import one in this discussion, IMO, is composers unwilling to advocate for melody. Those that do; eg McCreary, Edmonson, and Horner, to name three, do very well. But their attention is on composition, not production, during the writing phase.
> 
> There have always been brilliant technicians who are successful in music, just a bit too many in recent years to keep the melodies flowing. So it's not samples, but their overuse, that contributes to the demoting of melody.
> 
> The funny part is that the flood of non-melodic music results in an emperor's new clothes effect, where simple motifs or voice leading may get called melodies.
> 
> The sad part is that producers now have to become reacquainted with the charm and energy and coolness of melodic music. But there's a new advocacy group that will help with that. Looks to be fun!



I do get that samples might allow you to use other devices instead of melody, but in no way does it preclude it. If you want to write using melodies in VIs... what's stopping you?

I probably said this a year ago as it seems directly relevant to the topic, but I remember reading / hearing an interview with Hans about melody in contemporary action films. Hans was arguing (paraphrasing obviously) that he hasn't found a way to use melody in this kind of movie - TDK, Inception etc - as the movie's form essentially precludes it. It requires a different form of scoring to integrate successfully with the style of this kind of film.

OK, I found it. Everyone who is interested in the subject of this thread should listen to this, because it is Hans Zimmer and James Newton Howard discussing EXACTLY this point, how they actually took the big traditional theme out of The Dark Knight and took 6 months to convince Christopher Nolan this was the way to go. Here's the link, the relevant stuff starts at around 5'30.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6yS9TzDowA

That's something that I guess some here would disagree with. But I think it's good food for thought. I'm a big fan of melody (not just motif or chord progression), I use themes on pretty much everything I write... it's to the point where I can't really write without it. Even if I'm scoring something a few seconds long I'll need a theme to hang my hat on. But I take Hans' comments seriously... he's probably right, and I'm not sure I'd write that style well with my current approach, I'd need to rethink a lot... it's probably quite limiting. And the point is - Hans has come up with some of the best melodies in contemporary film (such as Gladiator). So of course he's absolutely qualified to talk about when it is appropriate and when it is not.


----------



## George Caplan

Daryl @ Thu Feb 23 said:


> I don't write anything that sounds crap. Then again, I know what I'm doing and have the requisite skills.
> 
> D



i think i understand what you mean. you mean you write things that sound good although they may not necessarily be any good.


----------



## Daryl

George Caplan @ Fri Feb 24 said:


> Daryl @ Thu Feb 23 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't write anything that sounds crap. Then again, I know what I'm doing and have the requisite skills.
> 
> D
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i think i understand what you mean. you mean you write things that sound good although they may not necessarily be any good.
Click to expand...

LOL. That's not exactly what I meant, but you make a good point. No creative person can be original and brilliant all the time, no matter who they are. However, deadlines remain and mortgages have to be paid. This is where a professional can use their craft to make something useful out of a less than stellar idea.

D


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## JohnG

David Story @ 23rd February 2012 said:


> A great melody works on many different instruments, including a GM piano.



This is where I disagree, David. 

Some melodies might sound fine on a GM piano. But there are plenty that sound nice sung or played on almost any "real" instrument that would sound weak or insipid played with string / wind / brass samples. Some good melodies need a real human being to blossom, a point I'm sure you'd agree with, given your support of live players.

This is not a little matter, since nowadays the process of growing up musically in film involves a heck of a lot of electronics and heart-breakingly few chances to work with a group of players bigger than a handful. The knock-on to the state of the industry is substantial. 

It's not that you can't _write_ the melody for samples, it's just that it can't always be sold to a producer that way. They may feel it's "not really there" or just not that great. 

And with the level of tension and worry out there now, in which each director and producer feels that one mistake could be his or her last, it takes a very strong relationship to get past any perceived weakness in a mockup.

As evidence of the influence of sample mockups on final scores, I'd point to how noisy scores have become for "major" movies. Tons of percussion and pre-records, everyone playing f-ff a lot of the time. I think this comes in part from the sales process that involves sample mockups. Sampled percussion sounds pretty convincing, and it feels to me as though plenty of libraries neglect the range of pp-mp.


----------



## David Story

John, I agree with you. It's my fault for not being clear. "Great" is someone or something of universal and timeless appeal. Performance doesn't matter, it's still good. EG Jupiter from The Planets works for me in GM. It's just better live. "My Heart Will Go On" seems to require more from the performer to sell it- sample versions don't work on that tune, for me.


> It's not that you can't write the melody for samples, it's just that it can't always be sold to a producer that way. They may feel it's "not really there" or just not that great.



That's the heart of the matter, imo. Piet expressed the same, from a performance perspective.

We could hire live players to sell melodies, but we usually don't. The focus is on big samples. Doesn't have to be, but it takes an effort to move towards melody.

I simply want to see melodic material get proper attention from our community as a whole. I do get that samples are part of the palette. I demand more. 

And it's weird to see musically talented people defending the use of technology that renders musical talent secondary. I always thought sound design would give us more freedom, not take away the melodic option. 

Guy, there's always more than one way to score a scene or film. It's rare that melody would be inappropriate for a whole film. The case against melody is usually as John said: hard to sell with samples.

It's hard to get good players recorded for a small budget, but I do my best.

EDIT: Somehow forgot to say that I totally support softer dynamic layers in percussion. It's tricky to record them, and good soft sample are helpful in lots of styles. I hope they are programed so there is enough consistency in the round robins, and few enough layers per patch, that it's easy to play. I don't like sample instruments that act too delicate.


----------



## Freds

"it's weird to see musically talented people defending the use of technology that renders musical talent secondary. I always thought sound design would give us more freedom, not take away the melodic option"
Couldn't agree more...


----------



## noiseboyuk

David Story @ Sat Feb 25 said:


> John, I agree with you. It's my fault for not being clear. "Great" is someone or something of universal and timeless appeal. Performance doesn't matter, it's still good. EG Jupiter from The Planets works for me in GM. It's just better live. "My Heart Will Go On" seems to require more from the performer to sell it- sample versions don't work on that tune, for me.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not that you can't write the melody for samples, it's just that it can't always be sold to a producer that way. They may feel it's "not really there" or just not that great.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's the heart of the matter, imo. Piet expressed the same, from a performance perspective.
Click to expand...


I get the argument, but I don't personally buy it. Actually My Heart Will Go On is a perfect example why - that's a good accessible tune that is used in the film most memorably on solo piano. Works a helluva lot better than Celine Dion.

I dunno, I think we're waaay over-complicating this. A good tune is a good tune, end of story.

Want to post this link again as it's been ignored - the actual point of this thread, Hans Zimmer and James Newton Howard posting how not using melody in contemporary film is a conscious choice on their part, not an imposition by producers or lack of inspiration etc:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6yS9TzDowA @5.30

This is a much, much better answer to the question than blaming shortcomings in samples, and is ground zero for this argument. THEN you can look at the knock on effect... even if producers / directors aren't aware why, if they react against melody chances are it's because many contemporary big action movies like Batman and Inception don't use it much, and they want a bit of reflected glory. Hans says he's always wanted to stay ahead of the curve, and he's proven to be exactly right. I suspect, like all things, that's its cyclical and before long there will be an influential kick ass movie that captures the new zeitgeist and has a cracking tune as well.... and suddenly use of melody will be easier again for everyone lower down the food chain.


----------



## JohnG

Well Guy, even though both HZ and JNH write melodies all the time in their scores, in the Dark Knight they said they didn't. Except actually, they did! Just not constantly. Unless you want to argue about what's a melody and what's a motif.

And I don't think 25 million soundtracks for Titanic were sold based on the piano version of that melody. It was Celine.

I know what you mean about some conspicuous big films neglecting singable tunes, but I don't think it's quite true to say that "most big action movies don't have melody." Ok, they don't do the leitmotif thing like Star Wars or Peter and the Wolf. But there are plenty of tunes, with many song-style cues out there.

There is so MUCH music now in movies that the idea of a mostly-melody score could get tiring. Once upon a time a lot of scores were 45-55 minutes. Now it's routine for them to be 90 minutes, sometimes a lot more. You can only listen to a theme so many times even with all that acreage before you'd run screaming into the street.

And personally, I still sweat with mockups when trying to persuade a production to spend money on an orchestra and it influences what I write. If it sounds great on the samples off we go. If not, it's back to the drawing board. I don't think it's just me.


----------



## noiseboyuk

JohnG @ Sat Feb 25 said:


> Well Guy, even though both HZ and JNH write melodies all the time in their scores, in the Dark Knight they said they didn't. Except actually, they did! Just not constantly. Unless you want to argue about what's a melody and what's a motif.
> 
> And I don't think 25 million soundtracks for Titanic were sold based on the piano version of that melody. It was Celine.
> 
> I know what you mean about some conspicuous big films neglecting singable tunes, but I don't think it's quite true to say that "most big action movies don't have melody." Ok, they don't do the leitmotif thing like Star Wars or Peter and the Wolf. But there are plenty of tunes, with many song-style cues out there.
> 
> There is so MUCH music now in movies that the idea of a mostly-melody score could get tiring. Once upon a time a lot of scores were 45-55 minutes. Now it's routine for them to be 90 minutes, sometimes a lot more. You can only listen to a theme so many times even with all that acreage before you'd run screaming into the street.
> 
> And personally, I still sweat with mockups when trying to persuade a production to spend money on an orchestra and it influences what I write. If it sounds great on the samples off we go. If not, it's back to the drawing board. I don't think it's just me.



HZJNH (as we must now call them) of course use more subtle themes and motifs, but clearly the_ bigger_ themes are absent by design.

I don't know about the themes getting tiring - I never get tired of them in Williams' stuff. It's funny, with Tin Tin it took me ages to really appreciate all the thematic work in there, yet it now sounds blazingly obvious to me. Point is - on a first listen, I was barely aware of it. Of course he is the master, but the way he weaves them in and varies them constantly means it never gets old to me - regardless of running time! But as a separate issue, I do think there is too much music these days. A real highlight of Star Wars is the final battle, with a good 5 minutes with no score at all. The scoreless section works so well giving almost a verite feel, and the impact is so much greater when it comes back. I loved the Inception score, but I did long for a few stretches of silence in the film (I know Hans didn't score this to picture). Again, I appreciate that was a sytlistic choice... perhaps to have stopped the music would have exposed the spell, but in general I still prefer the light and shade.

As for Titanic... I remember when first watching it before I'd heard That Song (can it be true) that that theme really stood out in the film itself, especially the simple intro which is such an inspired lick. And I remember the disappointment at hearing Celine Dion sing a version over the credits...."how could he?" I thought. Of course it was massively popular so what do I know, but the main point is that in the context of the film itself, the theme I think is very effective with very simple instrumentation. It's just a good tune.


----------



## JohnG

I think we're talking past each other. You keep alluding to the exosphere of John Williams, JNH, and HZ, and I'm talking about the rest of the film scoring scrum -- the vast majority of the industry experience, which I think _is_ affected substantially by the limitations of mockups. 

And in particular I think the mockups most conspicuously show weakness in simpler, more exposed material, including melodies, which, in turn, makes melody seem less desirable and appealing than it might if mockups were not the now-standard means of presenting material.

I'm actually surprised if you don't agree that there's a strong influence on producers and directors of mockups. There is in LA, I fear. Maybe I should move to London?



noiseboyuk @ 25th February 2012 said:


> I don't know about the themes getting tiring - I never get tired of them in Williams' stuff.... Of course he is the master



No kidding! Mr. W defies belief, he's so masterful. This is even more obvious upon hearing others trying to "be" him.



noiseboyuk @ 25th February 2012 said:


> As for Titanic.... the theme I think is very effective with very simple instrumentation. It's just a good tune.



Yes, the tune is memorable and effective when played beautifully by set of horns or strings or a soloist live, orchestrated and recorded and conducted tastefully. Less appealing when played on samples, because, like any tune, samples just can't give it the life and phrasing and what-not that a single performer can.

Anyway, I doubt we really have a disagreement. It feels as though we're talking about different things. Or maybe I'm in an idiosyncratic position somehow?


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## noiseboyuk

We might well be talking past each other! I think I get you, John - in as much as samples doing anything at all (orchestral) isn't as good as live. I just don't know about the simpler thing, in as much as - say - the main theme from Star Wars is anything BUT simple, yet the milkman can whistle it easily enough on his rounds. The orchestration is immense, and it makes the melody, which I'd agree played on a piano might not sound so impressive. So in this case... where's the impact on samples? That's a tough mockup to be sure, but now the problem has shifted from samples not doing simplicity well to samples not doing complexity well, hasn't it? I don't see what's fundamentally different between the Star Wars Main Titles and a score of equal density and a less memorable tune :? 

As to our own experience, we're in such different worlds! Most of my music work is in kids TV in the UK, so I think it's fair to assume that we're not encountering the same problems - I'll definitely take your word for it on LA mockups! In my tiny world, live is almost extinct as productions find new creative ways to make their 35p budgets stretch. One show I worked on actually had to cut part of its budget in order to pay for a set - according to what they were originally given, they weren't allowed one (this is BBC, btw). In other words - mockups are invariably finals in my world. I can't say I've experienced any issue with producers / directors that are specific to themes, but like I say, I appreciate this is a very different world to yours. I swim in a small, strange little pond.

As for the Titanic theme - the point really is that it sounds good on solo piano, the original claim was that that theme needed the full Dion production number to prop up perhaps a relatively weak tune. And fwiw I think it would sound 99% as good on a very good sampled piano!


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## David Story

It's important to know what terms mean so we are talking apples and apples. A 3 second motif is different than a 30 second melody. There are plenty of motifs today, but I like musical ideas that are bigger than that. String the motifs together into a coherent melody. Melody is what people like to hum, helps hold the story together, and shows depth of thought and feeling. "The Soul".

You fall in love to a melody, not to a drum hit. And I say that as I'm stacking drum hits 

The answer, bring in a live player for the demo. That's how JH sold the song to JC.


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## choc0thrax

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2WH8mHJnhM


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## Daryl

David Story @ Sun Feb 26 said:


> The answer, bring in a live player for the demo. That's how JH sold the song to JC.


I agree with this 100%. If there is a really important featured solo that you can't bring off with samples, and you're worried that the director/producer doesn't trust you enough, then just get someone in to do the demo. Either that, or write the solo for an instrument that you can program successfully for.

D


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## JohnG

Deeply moving, choco.


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## Guy Bacos

noiseboyuk @ Sat Feb 25 said:


> As for the Titanic theme - the point really is that it sounds good on solo piano, the original claim was that that theme needed the full Dion production number to prop up perhaps a relatively weak tune. And fwiw I think it would sound 99% as good on a very good sampled piano!



It's funny, I never thought that the Titanic was a great song, had Celine not sung it, or had it stayed instrumental, it would of gotten little attention. Whenever you play a pop tune on the piano, 99% of the time, were hear in the back of our minds the original singer and the passion they put into it. If you just hear the piano rendition and never heard it sung by the singer, it's unlikely you will have a good reaction. As a pianist, I never liked playing that song in clubs, to me it's very circumstantial that the song became huge.


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## choc0thrax

Personally I'd take that song played by scraping a rake across a trash can over Celine singing it anyday.


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## Guy Bacos

choc0thrax @ Sun Feb 26 said:


> Personally I'd take that song played by scraping a rake across a trash can over Celine singing it anyday.



Except she's scraping rakes across her gold trash cans.


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## choc0thrax

Guy Bacos @ Sun Feb 26 said:


> choc0thrax @ Sun Feb 26 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Personally I'd take that song played by scraping a rake across a trash can over Celine singing it anyday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Except she's scraping rakes across her gold trash cans.
Click to expand...


Pretty sure she just makes René do that.


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## noiseboyuk

Guy Bacos @ Mon Feb 27 said:


> If you just hear the piano rendition and never heard it sung by the singer, it's unlikely you will have a good reaction.



In the film itself, first viewing, I did.


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