# Buy/Sell forum. Annoyance / request



## doctoremmet (Oct 4, 2021)

I am not sure if this is addressed in the marketplace forum rules or not. But if you’d go there now, this is what it looks like:





There is a good reason for restricting the “bump frequency” of a post, but shouldn’t there be rules pertaining to consolidating FS items in one or maybe max. three posts. Someone posting each single item in a separate post like this means all other posters’ items likely won’t be visible for a long time. Apparently the poster of these ads is aware of this but mentions it is not against the rules, which annoys me because it means he or she just lacks a sense of common decency.

/rant

@creativeforge @Mike Greene


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## creativeforge (Oct 4, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> I am not sure if this is addressed in the marketplace forum rules or not. But if you’d go there now, this is what it looks like:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I totally agree. And there should probably be a rule to avoid this kind of hoarding of the FS real estate. Makes common sense.

And if he understands why it could be an issue, I would hope he corrects it. Loads of people have done what you suggest.

I will however let Mike make the decision on how he wants to proceed about this. I simply shared the rule that could apply in his case, on his thread.

Thanks for flagging this, another way musicians help musicians. 

Peace.

André
ViC Tech support


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## doctoremmet (Oct 4, 2021)

creativeforge said:


> And if she understands why it is an issue, I would hope she corrects it. Loads of people are done what you suggest.


Thanks André. Another forum member requested the OP to consolidate and it looks like that won’t happen unless there are rules 







_Edit: for clarity, I did not post anything in the original thread myself - as some people seem to think. I just happened to notice this, could see the POV of the person who did comment and came here to ask my question in the first post. As some people have made clear, I should not have included the screenshots, as this can be perceived as me personally attacking the forum member - which clearly was never my intention. I apologize for my original post. Next time I’ll use a DM, if I choose to even bother again at all._


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## leo007 (Oct 4, 2021)

@creativeforge I commented him and tried to point to be respectful to our community listening practices but he doesn't seems to care as long as there no listing limitation rule exist


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## creativeforge (Oct 4, 2021)

One thing to consider also, is the BUMP rule, which is 14 days. A lot of content could be added in 14 days, disrupting the initial look line-up of his post.

I wrote a note to him and hopefully it will be well received.


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## MartinH. (Oct 4, 2021)

With all the credit card fraud issues that we've seen in the past, is it even a good idea to let people that _just _registered to sell stuff use that subforum at all? I'd never buy from someone who has no regular community activity to speak of here.


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## David Cuny (Oct 4, 2021)




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## doctoremmet (Oct 4, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> With all the credit card fraud issues that we've seen in the past, is it even a good idea to let people that _just _registered to sell stuff use that subforum at all? I'd never buy from someone who has no regular community activity to speak of here.


Very good point Martin, but also a really hard one to police. I am saying this as a “victim” of a scam perpetrated on this very forum haha (luckily after months PayPal did eventually refund me and many others). So as a general rule it is VERY important to at least reiterate the importance of always “doing business” with people you know or at least have interacted with in the regular threads OR the ones with a lot of positive buyers’ feedback. Which isn’t always clear for newcomers of course, in which case “online transactions” are always a bad idea. I have had this discussion with Mike a year ago and he convinced me it is hardly doable for him and the admins to constantly check whether or not a seller is “legit” and of course false accusations are also a thing we need to avoid.


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## Ben H (Oct 4, 2021)

I just put them on ignore. But yes, there probably should be some kind of rule.


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## doctoremmet (Oct 4, 2021)

There’s much to be said for pragmatism


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## parapentep70 (Oct 4, 2021)

While I tend to agree with every comment done by *doctoremmet*, I am not sure about this subject. In this forum (and also in KVR) listing a few (or many) items per thread is standard. I personally do not like it at all because I need to open EVERY thread to look for the item name and the price. It takes time to find a bargain... so I end up NOT using the advertising section. If I would like to find how many people are selling their Arturia V collection in V7 below xx €, I need to use the search function and then enter most of the threads. The exceptions are the threads that contain THIS single item, so they have the short description and price in the title, so they appear in the search results.

In many other forums where they do not follow this practice it is times easier to find if there is something I am interested. I am not 100% sure now, but I think multiple listings in a single threads are banned in some forums I visit on a regular basis (where music gear, virtual or not is advertised).

On the other hand the usual way here (and also in KVR) is easier for the author of the ads... but in my opinion as a seller, it is less effective, just because it is more complicated for the potential buyer.


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## doctoremmet (Oct 4, 2021)

Fair point of course. I guess if you’re actively searching one specific item this forum will not be the most effective or you have to “put in the work” and browse a little. Good luck searching the KVR forum and not get stuck in the “bargains discussions thread” though haha (been there).

My 2 cents: if you want the benefits of a TRUE buy and sell platform, there is KnobCloud. If sellers want extra perks, maybe they should pay for the privilege? VI-C is very much based on “musicians helping musicians” and I experience that vibe on a daily basis. The Buy/Sell forum is a nice extra, for active members first and foremost. It doesn’t claim to be the ultimate online selling tool nor should it aim to become that. Imho.

I liked the Mark Schmieder posts from a year ago for instance: he sold a lot of his unused stuff and that was a typical example of a member actually contributing to the discourse on here, using the particular forum for what it was originally meant to be (again, according to me haha).

Anyway, I do hear you and I see your point from a pragmatic POV. Much of my annoyance was triggered by me spotting some “entitlement” in the OP’s remarks, so I figured I’d simply ask…


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## Markrs (Oct 4, 2021)

parapentep70 said:


> In this forum (and also in KVR) listing a few (or many) items per thread is standard.


I believe on KVR you can only create 1 thread on the buy and sell and joy have to close that thread before you can create another one. I could be wrong but I have seen this mentioned before (I've not tried to sell anything on KVR)


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## parapentep70 (Oct 4, 2021)

After participating I re-read carefully all the thread. I now get the flip side. So now I share it could be a good idea to limit the number of threads. Your original proposal (3) might be a good balance.

I just say sometimes I spare (or perhaps waste) time reading ALL the ads, and most times I quickly browse those with a good description and a price in the title. The exception the large thread by leo007 .


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## parapentep70 (Oct 4, 2021)

Markrs said:


> I believe on KVR you can only create 1 thread on the buy and sell and joy have to close that thread before you can create another one. I could be wrong but I have seen this mentioned before (I've not tried to sell anything on KVR)


Makes sense, I noticed that ads looked different from other forums (talkbass.com, bajistas.org, hispasonic.com...) but I did not know why. I may have broken this rule once or twice in KVR (but not on purpose and only a couple of simulateneous ads).


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## Technostica (Oct 4, 2021)

I just blocked them and also LoveEnigma who has multiple listings and repeatedly bumps them too frequently. 

You can search just by the listing titles which helps to narrow it down sometimes.


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## kgdrum (Oct 4, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> With all the credit card fraud issues that we've seen in the past, is it even a good idea to let people that _just _registered to sell stuff use that subforum at all? I'd never buy from someone who has no regular community activity to speak of here.


Agreed +1 
I will suggest a minimum of 100 posts and at least 30 or 60 days being a registered VI-C member.
I also agree a member should not be able to have more than one sale thread at a time.


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## doctoremmet (Oct 4, 2021)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> One could argue that a bit of common sense is the best protection against scammers though.


Very true. I thought I had enough of that, yet got scammed buying an unregistered Chris Hein license off of someone for a very proper price (none of that “too good to be true” logic applies), only to have it removed from my Best Service account months later. Bought from someone who had also made a decent amount of “regular contributions” on VI-C, and who hadn’t just joined. Anyway… the license was apparently purchased with a stolen credit card… so maybe add “never buy an unregistered license” to your list of online transaction rules 

Just saying; yes - common sense IS important but even people who do their due diligence investigations, sometimes fall prey to these scammers… and Mike C.S. cannot be expected to police that or prevent it.


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## parapentep70 (Oct 4, 2021)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> One could argue that a bit of common sense is the best protection against scammers though.


I agree. Why? An *example here*.


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## leo007 (Oct 4, 2021)

Technostica said:


> I just blocked them and also LoveEnigma who has multiple listings and repeatedly bumps them too frequently.
> 
> You can search just by the listing titles which helps to narrow it down sometimes.


pleasure to see united afford we all put together 💪 

I would like to add my few cents about LoveEnigma in general, 
he is very good and decent person who is also active and value member in our community.
I would speak with him personally on the subject of bumping


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## Jdiggity1 (Oct 4, 2021)

There have been times when seemingly 75% of the latest posts in the general forum are all from the same member. This too might annoy some people to some extent, but there is no rule against it.

Some threads get a rapid back-and-forth between two or more members, often simply sharing memes or "having a laugh", irrelevant to the thread's topic, but keeping it at the top of the list. This, too, might annoy some people. Yet there is no hard and fast rule against it.

~~

I can agree that as a (hypothetical) seller who'd just listed an item, I would be a little peeved by a sudden flood of new threads, regardless of who is posting them.
As a potential buyer, however, I see the split threads as a good thing, and makes it clearer to me what is now up for grabs without having to check inside the threads with "Lots of plugins for sale!!" in the title.

Ultimately, I tend to favor the buyer's perspective and prioritise their needs over the seller's, particularly as it is a free service after all.


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## doctoremmet (Oct 4, 2021)

Jdiggity1 said:


> There have been times when seemingly 75% of the latest posts in the general forum are all from the same member. This too might annoy some people to some extent, but there is no rule against it.


Point taken


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## Technostica (Oct 4, 2021)

leo007 said:


> I would like to add my few cents about LoveEnigma in general, he is very good and decent person who is also active and value member in our community.
> I would speak with him personally on the subject of bumping


I contacted him before as have others and he continues to ignore the bump rule.
Now he also has multiple listings as well, so he just doesn't play nice as far as I'm concerned.


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## leo007 (Oct 4, 2021)

Technostica said:


> I contacted him before as have others and he continues to ignore the bump rule.
> Now he also has multiple listings as well, so he just doesn't play nice as far as I'm concerned.


your absolutely right my friend, I can promise it will be defiantly discussed and fixed and won't repeat it self


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## Markrs (Oct 4, 2021)

leo007 said:


> LoveEnigma in general,
> he is very good and decent person who is also active and value member in our community.
> I would speak with him personally on the subject of bumping


I would also agree with you on this Leo. I have found LoveEnigma to be polite and a good community member. The bumping issue could be because KVR has different rules (48 hours) and sometimes forget that VI-C is every 14 days.


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## Technostica (Oct 4, 2021)

Markrs said:


> I would also agree with you on this Leo. I have found LoveEnigma to be polite and a good community member. The bumping issue could be because KVR has different rules (48 hours) and sometimes forget that VI-C is every 14 days.


He clearly stated to me that he doesn't like the VI-C bump rules and since that conversation he continues to flout them.
KVR also has different rules with regard to how many sell posts you can have and he manages to distinguish between the two forums in this regard.
He might be a great member in general, but he doesn't seem to have much regard for these particular rules.


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## Markrs (Oct 4, 2021)

Technostica said:


> He clearly stated to me that he doesn't like the VI-C bump rules and since that conversation he continues to flout them.
> KVR also has different rules with regard to how many sell posts you can have and he manages to distinguish between the two forums in this regard.
> He might be a great member in general, but he doesn't seem to have much regard for these particular rules.


Fair point, rules are not selective if you decide to use them or not. It is respectful to those who do keep to them, to do the same.


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## leo007 (Oct 4, 2021)

Technostica said:


> He clearly stated to me that he doesn't like the VI-C bump rules and since that conversation he continues to flout them.
> KVR also has different rules with regard to how many sell posts you can have and he manages to distinguish between the two forums in this regard.
> He might be a great member in general, but he doesn't seem to have much regard for these particular rules.


indeed good point and please understand me correctly I don't try justify this ✔
he is my good friend and I will take under my own responsibility it will be fixed


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## creativeforge (Oct 4, 2021)

Jdiggity1 said:


> There have been times when seemingly 75% of the latest posts in the general forum are all from the same member. This too might annoy some people to some extent, but there is no rule against it.
> 
> Some threads get a rapid back-and-forth between two or more members, often simply sharing memes or "having a laugh", irrelevant to the thread's topic, but keeping it at the top of the list. This, too, might annoy some people. Yet there is no hard and fast rule against it.
> 
> ...


Fair points. So in your view this is OK? 

I finally posted a reply after looking at the rules. Am I misunderstand, reading into it?



> Hi, and welcome to VIC. As a new member. we would hope that you understand there are "unspoken rules" of behaviour expected from our community of members. The suggestion made to you is not entirely one of those.
> 
> RULES excerpt (emphasis mine):
> 
> ...



But I removed it later on, deciding I needed sleep more than anything.

Thanks for the input.


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## Jdiggity1 (Oct 4, 2021)

creativeforge said:


> View attachment 58571
> 
> 
> Fair points. So in your view this is OK? Maybe the color of his name tag makes it louder?
> ...


It could probably be worded more clearly, but the rule you referenced basically means:

- When you create a thread that has listed multiple products for sale, please update the initial (first) post *of that thread* to indicate what has been sold. -


As for the sequence of thread's by the same avatar, I don't have an issue with it, personally. But that's what discussions are for, so it's not just one-sided.
To me, there is no effective difference to whether those threads were created by one person or by many. At most, I might think "oh look, this person's got shit to sell!".
From my point of view, the real problem people seem to have here, is that the member simply didn't give in to their demands. _That's_ when people started to get pissy.


So now what do we have? We have a thread that has named and shamed a relatively new member. Perhaps inadvertently 'rallying the troops'.
To the point where the member in question has deleted their picture and asked to have their account deleted.

Is this a win for the community?
(rhetorical)


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## creativeforge (Oct 4, 2021)

Jdiggity1 said:


> It could probably be worded more clearly, but the rule you referenced basically means:
> 
> - When you create a thread that has listed multiple products for sale, please update the initial (first) post *of that thread* to indicate what has been sold. -
> 
> ...


OK, so I misunderstood, then. Damn, I hate when that happens. Putting myself in his shoes... 

I think I owe him an apology.


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## doctoremmet (Oct 4, 2021)

Jdiggity1 said:


> From my point of view, the real problem people seem to have here, is that the member simply didn't give in to their demands. _That's_ when people started to get pissy.


Erm… For the record, I did not state any demands… anywhere. I have not commented in the actual thread, nor did I act pissy here. Not in the slightest. I asked a question and expressed a slight annoyance. In a forum that is dedicated to this type of thing. I am perfectly happy if people are okay with it, in which case I don’t get the “bump” rule to be honest. But hey…


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## creativeforge (Oct 4, 2021)

leo007 said:


> @creativeforge I commented him and tried to point to be respectful to our community listening practices but he doesn't seems to care as long as there no listing limitation rule exist


Yes, and so it is. He has done nothing wrong. Testing spoken or unspoken rules forces us to deal with things we may not necessarily like but it happens.


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## doctoremmet (Oct 4, 2021)

creativeforge said:


> Yes, and so it is. He has done nothing wrong. Testing spoken or unspoken rules forces us to deal with things we may not necessarily like but it happens.


Which is why I raised the question. Which is now named and shamed into “naming and shaming” lol. Sure!

Sorry I brought it up. Won’t do that again.


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## Jdiggity1 (Oct 4, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Erm… For the record, I did not state any demands… anywhere. I have not commented in the actual thread, nor did I act pissy here. Not in the slightest. I asked a question and expressed a slight annoyance. In a forum that is dedicated to this type of thing. I am perfectly happy if people are okay with it, in which case I don’t get the “bump” rule to be honest. But hey…


I said "people", implying a group effort. 

And you are correct, you didn't act pissy. Bad choice of word. You raised a topic for discussion, as is perfectly fine to do so.
I was merely basing it off your own admission: "Much of my annoyance was triggered by me spotting some “entitlement” in the OP’s remarks, so I figured I’d simply ask"

ie. Somebody asked them to do something, they didn't comply, and thus we have our motive.


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## doctoremmet (Oct 4, 2021)

Okay. Weird.


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## leo007 (Oct 4, 2021)

creativeforge said:


> Yes, and so it is. He has done nothing wrong. Testing spoken or unspoken rules forces us to deal with things we may not necessarily like but it happens.


I also feel responsibility for brought it up, sorry for troubles
there was no intention to bad name anyone


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## Jdiggity1 (Oct 4, 2021)

Maybe I should clarify, I don't see any ill-intent by anybody here. The "naming and shaming" is more about the effect of it, from a victim's point of view, as opposed to the intention behind it.

Though as a learning opportunity for all of us, it's probably possible to raise a topic such as this, or other rules, without including specifics of who might be at fault.
This forum works well for discussing general rules, but if the problem is a single member, a report to moderators is more suitable.


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## doctoremmet (Oct 4, 2021)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> Well, “1 single post“ written with capital letters and terminating the message with a ! …. but yeah, everyone interpretets the written word differently. Internet communication is tricky


That wasn’t my post though. So I think you may have some posts mixed up? I did not use any capitals, and ! - I simply noticed something and was slightly and mostly “academically” annoyed so I figured I’d raise it as a question. It was not an attempt to gang up on anyone. If it came across that way I apologize. I’ll think twice before ever politely expressing my annoyance and even indicating it for the readers in the title of a post, ending it with “/rant” AND @ mentioning admins, with the best of intentions if that is interpreted as naming & shaming or “ganging up” on someone. People who know me on here must surely know such a thing could hardly be my intention.

Nuff said though and of course you are all totally FREE to think of it whatever you want! Cheers. ❤️


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## Technostica (Oct 4, 2021)

The fact that they are a new member who has only ever posted in the Trading forum and did that by starting 8 separate threads is what raised a flag for me.
It’s not unusual to see people joining just to trade, but this seemed excessive regardless of the rules.


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## doctoremmet (Oct 4, 2021)

Jdiggity1 said:


> Though as a learning opportunity for all of us, it's probably possible to raise a topic such as this, or other rules, without including specifics of who might be at fault.
> This forum works well for discussing general rules, but if the problem is a single member, a report to moderators is more suitable.


Genuinely good advice, I’ll take it to heart.


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## wst3 (Oct 4, 2021)

you guys are way more generous than I! I think listing dozens of items in a single post should be banned, but so to should posting a dozen items in a dozen posts. And the no bump rule is a little nicer than I'd have done.

The point of having the classified section is to allow members to sell one or two things they have outgrown, and at the same time allowing newer members to get a decent deal on something that might otherwise be out of their reach.

It was never meant to be a storefront, but that is what it has become. I'm not sure that can be reversed at this point.

Plus, as a new member this person seems awfully arrogant - and certainly appears to know that he is skirting the generally accepted practices.


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## Collywobbles (Oct 4, 2021)

What if there was a rule (tough to enforce, but something you can point to) stating that a user is only allowed to make X amount of listings per day, and if they wish to sell more than X amount of things at a time, they should put them in a single post. 

This could be a terrible idea since I've never actually used that part of the forum, but hey, just a thought.


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## Mike Greene (Oct 5, 2021)

Jdiggity1 said:


> As a potential buyer, however, I see the split threads as a good thing, and makes it clearer to me what is now up for grabs without having to check inside the threads with "Lots of plugins for sale!!" in the title.


That's a good point. My first thought was that a bunch of separate threads was annoying, but as I think about it, I think you're right that separate might be better. We won't make that a rule, though, so for people who prefer _"Lots o' Plugins for Sale,"_ that's still fine, too. (I modified the wording of the "Edit your initial post" rule that André referenced.)

On the broader issue of the Classifieds section in general, we're never going to make a perfect Classifieds section. It simply can't be done. Think of a new rule and I'll give you a reason why it won't work. Or worse, why it could harm the rest of the forum. For instance, minimum post counts could result in a savvy scammer posting a bunch of useless posts in the main forum to bump his count. Ugh!

Plus a rule like that works against legit members who have low post counts. Scan through some Classifieds threads and notice how many legit sellers only have a handful of posts. There's nothing wrong with _not_ posting every thought that comes into your head, so I don't want to punish those who don't.  

The Classifieds section is an "Is What It Is" section. We do what we can to keep it clean, but honestly, it's not what the forum is about, so we're not going to go to great lengths (like creating a seller feedback section or various other ideas) to improve the section.

With that said, I did write a "Buyer Rules" sticky, to alert unwary buyers of what can go wrong.


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