# Why Are Soundtracks Mastered So Quiet?



## KEM

This has always been my biggest complaint with soundtrack releases, they’re always really quiet compared to most contemporary music and I never really understood why, I was listening to the Mission Impossible Fallout soundtrack and it while it is truly an amazing body of work I just really wish it was louder, I decided to compare and went and listened to the new Bring Me The Horizon song right after and it is so much louder and that just makes it a lot more satisfying to listen to

Film scores need more brickwall limiting!!


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## CT

Brickwall limiting sounds like crap. I like having to reach to turn up the volume, it keeps me in shape.


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## KEM

Michaelt said:


> Brickwall limiting sounds like crap. I like having to reach to turn up the volume, it keeps me in shape.



I love brickwall limiting, might just be a generational thing because all my friends and everyone else my age loves heavily compressed and limited music, whereas my parents and people in their age group love very dynamic and natural sounding music, but I think these high budget action films could benefit greatly from being mastered much louder, it would make them hit a lot harder


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## Henning

Well, if you think soundtracks are too dynamic you are in for a culture shock when you listen to a classical orchestral recording.


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## Henu

KEM said:


> Film scores need more brickwall limiting!!


You're right, this sounds much better now.


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## Zedcars

If you like music to sound like the audio equivalent of an overcooked crispy duck with charred roast potatoes you may like to put a limiter on the music yourself. There are apps available for iOS and Android which do this. Here’s one for iOS:









‎Limiter - Audio Processor


‎Audiobus and Inter-App Audio Effect. A brickwall peak limiting app, for the complete control of your audio volume. New Sampler! Now you can use the app as a standalone. The Amazing Noises Limiter it has a wide range of dynamic processing: from very gentle volume attenuation to heavy distortion...



apps.apple.com


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## Sarah Mancuso

Because it sounds better. Turn it up to match the same volume as the brickwalled mix, and the dynamic mix will be… well, more dynamic. Brickwalling squashes all the life out of music, and nowadays doesn’t even accomplish anything since streaming services turn loudmastered music down to at least -14lufs anyway.


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## José Herring

KEM said:


> This has always been my biggest complaint with soundtrack releases, they’re always really quiet compared to most contemporary music and I never really understood why, I was listening to the Mission Impossible Fallout soundtrack and it while it is truly an amazing body of work I just really wish it was louder, I decided to compare and went and listened to the new Bring Me The Horizon song right after and it is so much louder and that just makes it a lot more satisfying to listen to
> 
> Film scores need more brickwall limiting!!


It makes it easier to listen to in the elevator. 

Nah, in general compressing the crap out of strings, winds, choirs, and brass makes them sound like SHYTE. 

Also, man what's up with this generational thing? I was listening to loud Heavy Metal and gansta rap 20 years before you were born. Loud music is what most kids grown up on, on thing is that sooner or later one grows into different kinds of expression. But, I still slam NWA on occasion.


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## Nando Florestan




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## Kent

I, too, like loud music.

Which is why sausage waveforms suuuuuck


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## Crowe

Uhhhh. Yeah, no. OSTs aren't metal albums. Get your filthy brickwall away from my precious woodwinds.


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## gamma-ut

When everything is loud, nothing is loud.


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## davidson




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## SyMTiK

Simply put, films tend to maximize the use of dynamic range to serve a movie theater capable of full range sound. On the other hand, I find that a lot of contemporary music is mastered to serve consumer grade audio equipment and has catered to the average listener who is likely to listen to a record on small earbuds or ever from their iphone speaker. Minimizing dynamic range has helped translate to this medium "better", in the sense that average listeners can make out the groove, vocal, and instruments in a commercial record even if they decide to listen to it from their shit phone speaker, and they have enough room to turn up their volume more without running out of volume to turn up. Less dynamic range allows all of these elements to be "heard" on these devices, at the sacrifice of dynamics.

Consider that a score is being taken out of a movie where that music was written to serve a purpose to cater to the drama in a film, so it doesn't always translate perfectly to a streamed listening experience. I was listening to an interview recently with Hans Zimmer where he discussed how he wasn't super thrilled about Dune being released on HBO Max alongside the theatrical release, primarily because so much work goes into making everything sound good and translate to a large theater, and by listening at home and watching on a smaller format you are losing a lot of the experience.


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## Crowe

I've tried to imagine listening to my favorite Horror-game OSTS and frankly, they just wouldn't work if you destroy the dynamics like that.






Basically, I think there's a misunderstanding here. Soundtracks aren't generally mastered 'quiet'. They're mastered 'dynamically'.


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## Drundfunk

Let's just say I disagree. Dynamics are something beautiful.


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## KEM

Henu said:


> You're right, this sounds much better now.



This actually does sound 10x better, I know you're just joking around but I genuinely think this sounds a lot better


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## KEM

I guess I'm in a very small minority here but dynamics just aren't a huge deal to me, when I'm working on an actual film sure, because I have to serve the picture, but for music that's meant to be listened to on it's own I think you should always try and get it as loud as possible, and you can still get perceived dynamic music with heavy limiting. With my own music we compress pretty heavily and then soft clip a few db off and then limit it by another few db with the maximum loudness at -0.3db, but you still get dynamics, you can perceive where the quieter parts are, they're just turned up so you can actually hear them, and I much prefer this over the quiet parts actually being really quiet


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## Sarah Mancuso

Tired: having the louder parts actually be louder so they're more impactful
Inspired: mastering to 0 LUFS and just vaguely implying which parts are supposed to be loud


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## Henu

Lest we forget,


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## MA-Simon

Henu said:


> Lest we forget,


The crazy thing I asked myself during this video. I am unshure if this is a real voice, or computer generated?


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## pixel

Well, listening to overcompressed, very loud music is the best way to make you feel tired (especially your ears). Sometimes can even cause light headaches.
I also do loud mixes of my productions (Club Music), and I grow up during the loudness war evolution. I can listen to overcompressed music no problem, but when I can, I prefer to listen to music that has dynamics and transients untouched. It's simply a more pleasant experience. Besides, what is the problem with turning volume up? It's not that hard 

Everything has its purpose, and heavy compression simply doesn't make sense for orchestral and film music. It doesn't make sense to kill dynamics in music that is supposed to be very dynamic. Dynamics is another part of music, louder and quieter passages are part of the story. When it's killed with compression, part of the story is killed. Simple as that.


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## Henu

One thing I'd like to point out concerning loudness and KEM's process of complete butchering of the dynamics by limiting, clipping, limiting and whatnot to achieve even more loudness in the mastering stage:

If you really really insist of having fucking loud and unbearable-sounding masters, here's a free tip.

It starts with your mix. _Loud masters come from LOUD AND CLEAR MIXES._ If you need to do that much of processing in the master to achieve artificial loudness, your mix isn't properly done for the purpose. Go back to it, squeeze the individual instruments more, clean the low range and the mids, then add some subgroup compressing and limiting and you'll be amazed what happens.


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## KEM

Henu said:


> One thing I'd like to point out concerning loudness and KEM's process of complete butchering of the dynamics by limiting, clipping, limiting and whatnot to achieve even more loudness in the mastering stage:
> 
> If you really really insist of having fucking loud and unbearable-sounding masters, here's a free tip.
> 
> It starts with your mix. _Loud masters come from LOUD AND CLEAR MIXES._ If you need to do that much of processing in the master to achieve artificial loudness, your mix isn't properly done for the purpose. Go back to it, squeeze the individual instruments more, clean the low range and the mids, then add some subgroup compressing and limiting and you'll be amazed what happens.



The mixes are fine, we just want them louder, a lot louder, that’s why we do what we do


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## StefanoM

Because there is an object called " Volume"


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## Sarah Mancuso

KEM said:


> The mixes are fine, we just want them louder, a lot louder, that’s why we do what we do


Sorry about the hearing damage from your rifle!


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## GNP

pixel said:


> Everything has its purpose, and heavy compression simply doesn't make sense for orchestral and film music. It doesn't make sense to kill dynamics in music that is supposed to be very dynamic. Dynamics is another part of music, louder and quieter passages are part of the story. When it's killed with compression, part of the story is killed. Simple as that.


Yeeeeeeeeeeeeps.

Even if it's not orchestral or film music, even if it's fuckin EDM, I still want the perfect balance of dynamics, transients, with some squash. Total squash is just complete bullshit. Horrible...


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## Crowe

I'd like to point out that when Doom Eternal's OST was released it was heavily criticized by the Doom fans because it was far less dynamically mastered than the OST for Doom 2016 was.

I agree. The OST to the second game is mastered quite terribly. There is nothing good about squashing dynamics until there's nothing left, not even in metal.

I think ya'll have just damaged your hearing.


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## KEM

You all keep saying to just turn up the volume but that doesn’t change the fact that the mastering is too quiet, they don’t even have to limit, clip, or compress more to get them louder, the peak loudness points are still way quieter than they could be, they’re leaving way to much headroom available and there’s just no need for it


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## Crowe

There is no reason to reach 'peak loudness' *at all*. In fact, 'peak loudness' on my earphones when I'm listening to my phone _is so loud it hurts._

You say there is no need for 'way to much headroom'. There's actually no need to _remove it._

Anyway. This discussion is pointless. Imma point at St. Anger and leave it at that.


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## JJP

KEM said:


> Film scores need more brickwall limiting!!


The reason why this isn't done is because over-compressing and brick wall limiting orchestra recordings have been defined as crimes against humanity in the Geneva Conventions. 

I think there is language about drowning every meal in ketchup as well.


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## Henu

Crowe said:


> The OST to the second game is mastered quite terribly.


AFAIK, the OST wasn't actually mastered from Gordon's "mixed soundtrack- files" but they had to use to oblivion-squashed game stem files due to the fact that Gordon couldn't provide them the proper mixes on time. And yes, it sounds fucking horrible compared to the original 2016 soundtrack.

EDIT: To clarify, game stems need often to be compressed way over the "listening standards", especially on high-packed action games. There's nothing wrong in that sense.


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## GNP

If a mix isn't at its loudest, but has its dynamics and transients in place, reaching for the volume knob and turning it up will really rock the place down.

If a mix is brickwalled squashed, loud but plain flat, reaching for the volume knob and turning it up will just make that flatness louder. It's loud, but it's still horrible.

I remember working on audio post on a short horror film. There were a couple of jump scares. The amateur in me thought that by brickwalling and squashing the entire mix in general, it would be exciting and loud (how Asian of me LOL).

Thankfully I rethought. *Everything was loud, and so when the jump scares came, there was no impact. It was like hearing a monster appear with a tiny penis.* I simply turned the limiter threshold back closer to zero, and now the jump scares worked MUCH better.

Since then I realized it's not about ensuring top loudness from your side - loudness should be adjusted from the consumer side.

Same goes for my film music stuff - things like booms, hits and whooshes have so much more impact when the dynamics and transients are preserved. Of course I'll apply some squashing, but juuuuuuuust the right amount. Not TOO stupidly dynamic, but not TOO stupidly squashed.

The consumer will enjoy the experience alot more. They just have to turn up their volume alittle bit more.


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## Drundfunk

I do wonder if your hearing is actually alright. Just by listening to the Dan Worall video I feel like I lost part of my hearing already and the video was only a few minutes long.... .


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## Henu

KEM said:


> The mixes are fine, we just want them louder, a lot louder, that’s why we do what we do


Judging from your Soundcloud- clips, you sure do. They sound _completely broken_ and totally ruined in any standards. Your mastering engineer must be either getting so much money from you that he is able to sleep his nights despite of this utter nonsense after doing this or he's completely on drugs all time.

I'm really sorry, but this is just beyond ridiculous and I can't put it nicer anymore even though I got fucking paid for doing so.


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## KEM

Henu said:


> Judging from your Soundcloud- clips, you sure do. They sound _completely broken_ and totally ruined in any standards. Your mastering engineer must be either getting so much money from you that he is able to sleep his nights despite of this utter nonsense after doing this or he's completely on drugs all time.
> 
> I'm really sorry, but this is just beyond ridiculous and I can't put it nicer anymore even though I got fucking paid for doing so.



Wow you’re really upset about this lol


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## KEM

You guys can hate me all you want for it but this is exactly how I like my waveforms to look, this is what I strive for


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## Sarah Mancuso

I don't think anyone on here "hates you" for this thread, you're just being laughed at.


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## Crowe

Henu said:


> AFAIK, the OST wasn't actually mastered from Gordon's "mixed soundtrack- files" but they had to use to oblivion-squashed game stem files due to the fact that Gordon couldn't provide them the proper mixes on time. And yes, it sounds fucking horrible compared to the original 2016 soundtrack.
> 
> EDIT: To clarify, game stems need often to be compressed way over the "listening standards", especially on high-packed action games. There's nothing wrong in that sense.


I specifically did not blame any one person or mention the game itself XD. I have no idea what happened there, Gordon is generally a swell guy so I have no clue.

Oh and OP, we certainly don't hate you, people have gotten upset about your viewpoint for as long as I've been alive. It's called the Loudness War for more than radio-music producers' habit of trying to outdo one another.


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## CT

Sarah Mancuso said:


> I don't think anyone on here "hates you" for this thread, you're just being laughed at.


Speak for yourself!


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## KEM

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> Nobody hates you, I just don’t think anybody understands how someone who makes music for a living can actually like brickwalled music.





Sarah Mancuso said:


> I don't think anyone on here "hates you" for this thread, you're just being laughed at.





Crowe said:


> Oh and OP, we certainly don't hate you, people have gotten upset about your viewpoint for as long as I've been alive. It's called the Loudness War for more than radio-music producers' habit of trying to outdo one another.



Figure of speech, I’m not mad or upset about it in the slightest, everyone has their own taste and I just so happen to be in the minority that really enjoys brickwalled music and that’s something I will continue to do with my own music because it genuinely sounds better to me, I don’t care if anyone else likes it as long as I do, in fact I quite enjoy how much it can really grind peoples gears because it clearly gets them talking. So bring it on, tear me apart, beat me up all you want, I can take all of it and then some!!


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## Sarah Mancuso




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## jbuhler

KEM said:


> You guys can hate me all you want for it but this is exactly how I like my waveforms to look, this is what I strive for


horror vacui! Needz moar red. You still have a bunch of wasted white space in your audio files. Get at eliminating it.


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## gsilbers

KEM said:


> Figure of speech, I’m not mad or upset about it in the slightest, everyone has their own taste and I just so happen to be in the minority that really enjoys brickwalled music and that’s something I will continue to do with my own music because it genuinely sounds better to me, I don’t care if anyone else likes it as long as I do, in fact I quite enjoy how much it can really grind peoples gears because it clearly gets them talking. So bring it on, tear me apart, beat me up all you want, I can take all of it and then some!!



As usual, it all depends and its not such a black and white discussion. 

Brickwall limiting does work for certain styles. But turns out for traditional styles of music like jazz and orchestral it sounds LOUDER without heavily compressing it. 

Might sounds counterintuitive but these streaming services lower or increse the volume of the tracks to fit their LUFS specs and its based on averages. 
So jazz standard with many dynamics will sound louder than a mastered version ran thorugh heavy limiting if listened via spotify. 
And not so hard to notice if you listen to epic music which is indeed a cinematic style of music with heavy use of brickwall limiting and a lot of tracks sound tiny and almost like having no fidelity, like an low quality mp3 almost. sounds mushy etc. 

filmscores rely a lot on dynamics and are mixed towards -24lufs normally where the music wouldbe lower than that. 
when mixed a whole score and then master it at -16luf then a lot might get pushed down or up in general terms. At action music scenes the score will be loud, while underscore low. so that avereage might make it all lower in general, all while trying to make a score thats very dynamic and poepl listening to these scores at home are using SPL of 81 to measure their rooms... or in other words, they turn the volume way the fuk up for these scores and clasical music to enjoy the dynamics. Modern music with brikwal would sound loud too of course, but then youd have to lower the volume to get a proper level since its all averaged the same. 


Now for moderns styles of music like hiphop, edm etc, yes, a heavy brikwall limiter is very much needed to make it sound like those styles. Its veven normal to produce with a limiter at the master bus already cranking anything from the start of prodcution. 

I also feel that scores should be louder though for streaming or have a more compressed dynamics. Not via limiter but mixed again to tighter LUFS so underscores sound clear and present and louder parts be lowerd. And when listening with headphones it would have less huge dynamics which doesnt sound that well on tiny earbuds.
Also over compressing orchestral instrments via compressors/limiting normally bring out way too much noise and reverb that make it sound very wierd and mushy/lofi etc


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## KEM

gsilbers said:


> As usual, it all depends and its not such a black and white discussion.
> 
> Brickwall limiting does work for certain styles. But turns out for traditional styles of music like jazz and orchestral it sounds LOUDER without heavily compressing it.
> 
> Might sounds counterintuitive but these streaming services lower or increse the volume of the tracks to fit their LUFS specs and its based on averages.
> So jazz standard with many dynamics will sound louder than a mastered version ran thorugh heavy limiting if listened via spotify.
> And not so hard to notice if you listen to epic music which is indeed a cinematic style of music with heavy use of brickwall limiting and a lot of tracks sound tiny and almost like having no fidelity, like an low quality mp3 almost. sounds mushy etc.
> 
> filmscores rely a lot on dynamics and are mixed towards -24lufs normally where the music wouldbe lower than that.
> when mixed a whole score and then master it at -16luf then a lot might get pushed down or up in general terms. At action music scenes the score will be loud, while underscore low. so that avereage might make it all lower in general, all while trying to make a score thats very dynamic and poepl listening to these scores at home are using SPL of 81 to measure their rooms... or in other words, they turn the volume way the fuk up for these scores and clasical music to enjoy the dynamics. Modern music with brikwal would sound loud too of course, but then youd have to lower the volume to get a proper level since its all averaged the same.
> 
> 
> Now for moderns styles of music like hiphop, edm etc, yes, a heavy brikwall limiter is very much needed to make it sound like those styles. Its veven normal to produce with a limiter at the master bus already cranking anything from the start of prodcution.
> 
> I also feel that scores should be louder though for streaming or have a more compressed dynamics. Not via limiter but mixed again to tighter LUFS so underscores sound clear and present and louder parts be lowerd. And when listening with headphones it would have less huge dynamics which doesnt sound that well on tiny earbuds.
> Also over compressing orchestral instrments via compressors/limiting normally bring out way too much noise and reverb that make it sound very wierd and mushy/lofi etc



See this is a much more constructive answer, I’ve certainly noticed in my own music just how much noise can be brought out with how much limiting we’re doing so that’s something we’ve had to work around, and while the genre argument is valid I still don’t believe in rules in music, just because people have been doing things a certainly way in film music for a long time doesn’t mean I have to abide by that, music is fun because we can do whatever we want, so that’s what I do!!


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## Nando Florestan

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> Is it April 1st again already?


At this point I also thought it was a safe bet that the OP was just trolling us, but his SoundCloud surfaced… It breaks my heart.


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## pixel

KEM said:


> You all keep saying to just turn up the volume but that doesn’t change the fact that the mastering is too quiet, they don’t even have to limit, clip, or compress more to get them louder, the peak loudness points are still way quieter than they could be, they’re leaving way to much headroom available and there’s just no need for it


There's also no real reason to hit 0dB Peak  I agree that it wouldn't kill to get there without any compression/limiting. But on the other hand, I can think only about one situation where making music audible enough could be problematic: when somebody is using high Ohm headphones on a device that is not suited / can't drive such headphones. 
For a normal sound system, it's not an issue. You can always put a club PA in your room like my friend did


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## KEM

Nando Florestan said:


> At this point I also thought it was a safe bet that the OP was just trolling us, but his SoundCloud surfaced… It breaks my heart.



I love how loud my music is, and that’s not going to change


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## KEM

I mean come on guys, just look at my profile picture, do I NOT look like the kind of person that likes brickwalled music?!


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## gives19

Sarah Mancuso said:


> Because it sounds better. Turn it up to match the same volume as the brickwalled mix, and the dynamic mix will be… well, more dynamic. Brickwalling squashes all the life out of music, and nowadays doesn’t even accomplish anything since streaming services turn loudmastered music down to at least -14lufs anyway.


Correct. Not everything needs to be loud my friends. Music is a dynamic thing. I do all kinds and there is a place for all of it, but not one thing all the time. Makes you appreciate the differences. thematic change dynamically is great. Makes you feel that something is coming. Plus with Atmos mixing I do here there is no place for brick wall limiting. I use that very little these days. I just mix better without it.


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## Tralen

KEM said:


> I love how loud my music is, and that’s not going to change


It will change when age comes and tinnitus sets in.


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## KEM

Tralen said:


> It will change when age comes and tinnitus sets in.



Perhaps, but I might get lucky, if I don’t have my actual volume set too loud I should be fine


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## Tralen

KEM said:


> Perhaps, but I might get lucky, if I don’t have my actual volume set too loud I should be fine


If the volume isn't loud, what is the point of brickwalling? Your full volume mixes will be just a flat waveform with a huge headroom above.


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## Nando Florestan

His answer is gonna be something like, because.


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## KEM

Tralen said:


> If the volume isn't loud, what is the point of brickwalling? Your full volume mixes will be just a flat waveform with a huge headroom above.



So I can hear the quiet parts of course!!! I do have it “loud” but not at a level that’s gonna blow my ear drums, but I don’t like the adjust my volume at all which is why when I’m listening to music I’d like it all to be at a uniform volume, but the film music I listen to is much noticeable quieter



Nando Florestan said:


> His answer is gonna be something like, because.



Yeah basically lol


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## Henu

@KEM

Send me one of your tracks unmastered. I am willing to do you a proper (non-commercial) master out of it so you can hear the difference yourself.


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## KEM

Henu said:


> @KEM
> 
> Send me one of your tracks unmastered. I am willing to do you a proper (non-commercial) master out of it so you can hear the difference yourself.



I don’t have any unmastered music because my stuff is all mixed and mastered in the same project, I could see if my engineer will export one of my tracks without the mastering chain activated but he’d probably just get annoyed if I ask lol, I guess I could send you my FREEPORT remake since I mixed and mastered that myself


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## GtrString

I think a lot of soundtracks would benefit from being louder. If you really like dynamics, it would be nice to be able to hear them properly. Turning the mix up, doesn't mean you need to squash it by all means.. Sometimes dynamics rather get lost by having loudness too low, but it could be that media producers aren't experts in the production side of things (or can't afford the top mixers), and that's why these dogmas exist. I think the loudness wars showed many how to mix loud without actually squashing dynamics.


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## Sarah Mancuso

GtrString said:


> I think the loudness wars showed many how to mix loud without actually squashing dynamics.


What would you say are some good examples of this?


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## Tralen

KEM said:


> So I can hear the quiet parts of course!!! I do have it “loud” but not at a level that’s gonna blow my ear drums, but I don’t like the adjust my volume at all which is why when I’m listening to music I’d like it all to be at a uniform volume, but the film music I listen to is much noticeable quieter


Well, I made a picture that explains my perspective on this (exaggerated, of course).


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## KEM

Tralen said:


> Well, I made a picture that explains my perspective on this (exaggerated, of course).



That top waveform looks perfect to me!!


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## Sarah Mancuso

The whole point of the image is that the middle one is what your listeners actually hear.


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## KEM

GtrString said:


> I think a lot of soundtracks would benefit from being louder. If you really like dynamics, it would be nice to be able to hear them properly. Turning the mix up, doesn't mean you need to squash it by all means.. Sometimes dynamics rather get lost by having loudness too low, but it could be that media producers aren't experts in the production side of things (or can't afford the top mixers), and that's why these dogmas exist. I think the loudness wars showed many how to mix loud without actually squashing dynamics.



This is exactly what I’m saying, just because I like brickwalled music doesn’t mean I’m saying that all film scores need to be brickwalled, what I’m saying is that film scores are too quiet overall, even the loudest points aren’t that loud, which means the really quiet parts are almost inaudible at times, you can keep the exact same dynamics while making the entire piece louder because there’s so much headroom available, which is what they should be doing


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## KEM

Sarah Mancuso said:


> The whole point of the image is that the middle one is what your listeners actually hear.



Yes I know, but because of the amount of clipping and limiting the quieter parts are still audible, which is a good thing


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## Tralen

KEM said:


> This is exactly what I’m saying, just because I like brickwalled music doesn’t mean I’m saying that all film scores need to be brickwalled, what I’m saying is that film scores are too quiet overall, even the loudest points aren’t that loud, which means the really quiet parts are almost inaudible at times, you can keep the exact same dynamics while making the entire piece louder because there’s so much headroom available, which is what they should be doing


Given that statement, what is preventing you from raising the volume yourself?


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## Sarah Mancuso

KEM said:


> Yes I know, but because of the amount of clipping and limiting the quieter parts are still audible, which is a good thing


"On one hand, this mix sounds terrible and distorted and immediately makes me want to turn it off. On the other hand, it is (unfortunately) audible."


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## KEM

Sarah Mancuso said:


> "On one hand, this mix sounds terrible and distorted and immediately makes me want to turn it off. On the other hand, it is (unfortunately) audible."



You know that you can get a really loud mix without distortion right…? Mine are loud and they aren’t distorted


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## Sarah Mancuso

No, I wrote that post after listening to some of your tracks.


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## KEM

Tralen said:


> Given that statement, what is preventing you from raising the volume yourself?



If I had access to their mixes I would lol, but I don’t have much to gain by ripping a low quality mp3 from YouTube and mastering it louder, I could buy their mastered tracks off a site that sells hi-def music and do it myself but I’m not _that _upset about it


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## Sarah Mancuso

KEM said:


> If I had access to their mixes I would lol, but I don’t have much to gain by ripping a low quality mp3 from YouTube and mastering it louder, I could buy their mastered tracks off a site that sells hi-def music and do it myself but I’m not _that _upset about it


You have a volume control on your listening device.


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## KEM

Sarah Mancuso said:


> No, I wrote that post after listening to some of your tracks.



Exactly, and all the distortion you’re hearing is from the sounds I use, not from the mix/master



Sarah Mancuso said:


> You have a volume control on your listening device.



Like I said, I don’t want to have to keep adjusting my volume, I’d rather all the music to be uniform


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## Joakim

KEM said:


> Exactly, and all the distortion you’re hearing is from the sounds I use, not from the mix/master
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said, I don’t want to have to keep adjusting my volume, I’d rather all the music to be uniform


This seems more like the issue of commercial breaks being louder than whatever you are watching.

Otherwise I don't really know what type of music is produced in such a way that the quiet parts aren't meant to be heard.


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## SupremeFist

Henu said:


> If you need to do that much of processing in the master to achieve artificial loudness, your mix isn't properly done for the purpose.


That's just not true, though. Heavy clipping and limiting is often part of the style of the genre: you won't find any commercial EDM tracks that don't do this and they're mixed by the best in the business. Same reason pop and rock tracks are still mastered to -9/10 LUFS even if the streaming service will turn it down. It's a sound.


----------



## Easy Pickens

What you're really saying is that in a recording with natural dynamics, the loud parts are too loud for you.


----------



## KEM

SupremeFist said:


> That's just not true, though. Heavy clipping and limiting is part of the style of the genre: you won't find any commercial EDM tracks that don't do this and they're mixed by the best in the business. Same reason pop and rock tracks are still mastered to -9/10 LUFS even if the streaming service will turn it down. It's a sound.



Exactly!! And who’s to say I can’t do that with film music? Just because things have been done the same way in this field for so long doesn’t mean I have to play by the same rules, breaking those rules is how you innovate and change the playing field, and that’s exactly what I’d like to do, I don’t have any intention of doing what everyone else wants me to do


----------



## Pier

KEM said:


> This has always been my biggest complaint with soundtrack releases, they’re always really quiet compared to most contemporary music and I never really understood why, I was listening to the Mission Impossible Fallout soundtrack and it while it is truly an amazing body of work I just really wish it was louder, I decided to compare and went and listened to the new Bring Me The Horizon song right after and it is so much louder and that just makes it a lot more satisfying to listen to
> 
> Film scores need more brickwall limiting!!


To preserve the dynamic range.

Soundtracks are meant to be listened on big theater speakers, so they have to work loud and quiet. 

This is similar to orchestral recordings that try to preserve the impression of being in a concert hall and listening to a real orchestra playing. Sometimes there is a single instruments playing and you can hear it clearly, and sometimes you have a tutti. This dynamic range would be lost with heavy mastering.

Kenneth, as soon as the pandemic is over, go to a concert hall and listen.


----------



## Nando Florestan

According to this character the pianoforte must have been a very silly invention. Why play piano if everything sounds better forte!? This discussion has gotta be the silliest in the entire forum…


----------



## SupremeFist

Nando Florestan said:


> According to this character the pianoforte must have been a very silly invention. Why play piano if everything sounds better forte!? This discussion has gotta be the silliest in the entire forum…


If you've ever considered it acceptable to use any amount of compression in a mix, then the idea of "natural dynamics" is already out of the window and we're just quibbling about matters of degree.


----------



## KEM

Pier said:


> To preserve the dynamic range.
> 
> Soundtracks are meant to be listened on big theater speakers, so they have to work loud and quiet.
> 
> This is similar to orchestral recordings that try to preserve the impression of being in a concert hall and listening to a real orchestra playing. Sometimes there is a single instruments playing and you can hear it clearly, and sometimes you have a tutti. This dynamic range would be lost with heavy mastering.
> 
> Kenneth, as soon as the pandemic is over, go to a concert hall and listen.



I am!! The St. Louis Symphony has a John Williams night early next year that I’ll be attending, and I’m very excited about it. But I’m not talking about the music as it’s heard in the film on theater speakers, that’s a completely different set of circumstances and in that context the dynamics are much more important, I’m referring only to the soundtracks as standalone works, they don’t even need heavy mastering they just need to be turned up, the dynamic range would be the exact same it would just be louder at its peaks


----------



## Pier

KEM said:


> Exactly!! And who’s to say I can’t do that with film music? Just because things have been done the same way in this field for so long doesn’t mean I have to play by the same rules, breaking those rules is how you innovate and change the playing field, and that’s exactly what I’d like to do, I don’t have any intention of doing what everyone else wants me to do



A lot of conventions aren't really rules but things that have proven to work again and again given a context.

Of course you can do whatever you want, but deciding to not follow a convention doesn't instantly make you an innovator 

Innovators create new trends which is very different doing stuff simply in reaction to something else.


----------



## Pier

KEM said:


> I’m referring only to the soundtracks as standalone works, they don’t even need heavy mastering they just need to be turned up, the dynamic range would be the exact same it would just be louder at its peaks


"Turning things up" is exactly the same as "reducing the dynamic range".

Maybe you just need a better headphone amp?


----------



## KEM

Pier said:


> "Turning things up" is exactly the same as "reducing the dynamic range".
> 
> Maybe you just need a better headphone amp?



Not true, the perceived dynamic range would be the exact same, if you turn up a track to higher volume you’re not changing the range from the lowest point to the highest, all of that stays the same, you just get a louder track overall and that’s just better in every way


----------



## Gene Pool

I recently used the "Schlong-maker" preset from the *Hold-my-Beer* mastering plugin on my four-movement flute sonata. This is the whole waveform in all its glory, including the three moments of silence between movements.


----------



## Pier

KEM said:


> Not true, the perceived dynamic range would be the exact same, if you turn up a track to higher volume you’re not changing the range from the lowest point to the highest, all of that stays the same, you just get a louder track overall and that’s just better in every way


True, given that there's significant enough headroom without altering the peaks.

But in your previous comments you've been talking all along about using a limiter which would inevitably alter the dynamic range.

Of course everyone prefers things at a louder volume, that's how the brain works. But if you just want it louder, why not simply increasing the volume of your speakers or headphones?


----------



## kgdrum

The effective use of dynamics imo is what separates great musicians and music from the loud drone of mediocrity. Truth be told when I was in my late teen to mid twenties I was trained and taught to play drums at max volume partially because the attack and ferocity sounds great on many types of music and I think primarily because sound systems in most clubs back in the day didn’t mic up the drums properly.
As I got into my late twenties I started getting more creative and one of my close friends & mentor,drumming collaborators was the late great Rashied Ali. He and several other great musicians showed me how much more impactful and powerful music can be if the player use the dynamic range,pacing and space. Loud and powerful actually sound much louder and way more powerful if there’s some contrast. The audience gets fatigued and bored if everything is at 11 all of the time,great music breathes.


----------



## KEM

Pier said:


> True, given that there's significant enough headroom without altering the peaks.
> 
> But in your previous comments you've been talking all along about using a limiter which would inevitably alter the dynamic range.
> 
> Of course everyone prefers things at a louder volume, that's how the brain works. But if you just want it louder, why not simply increasing the volume of your speakers or headphones?



Because I’d have to adjust the volume all the time and that’s just annoying lol

And yes I personally like tons of clipping and limiting, and while I’d love to see film scores go that route (mine sure will be) they don’t even have to go to that extreme to get them louder, with the amount of headroom they have at their peak loudness points they could certainly get their tracks louder with no change in dynamics and I see no reason why they shouldn’t


----------



## kgdrum

@KEM 
This might be hard for you to understand,you’re young and talented but you have the background and perspective of a 23 year old. 
I’m confident in telling you many of your musical opinions will fall by the wayside as you get older. Good musicians grow,change course and go in different directions and drastically change conceptually as they gain experience. 
Most good musicians if not all can not begin to fathom how their approach to music and playing change from when they were in their early twenties to a decade or two later…………and the ones that don’t grow,change and learn from experience generally age like old wine.they might be great when the bottle is 1st opened but try drink that same bottle of wine a year or two later, 🤮


----------



## KEM

kgdrum said:


> @KEM
> This might be hard for you to understand,you’re young and talented but you have the background and perspective of a 23 year old.
> I’m confident in telling you many of your musical opinions will fall by the wayside as you get older. Good musicians grow,change course and go in different directions and drastically change conceptually as they gain experience.
> Most musicians if not all can not begin to fathom how their approach to music and playing change from when they were in their early twenties to a decade or two later…………



No doubt things will change, that’s inevitable and I’m excited to see where my musical journey takes me, but hopefully I don’t change my opinion on liking louder masters my music is certainly a reflection of where I’m at right now and right now I like brickwalled music, the reason I started making music in the first place is because of Yeezus and as you can see from the waveforms of it I posted earlier it’s very heavily brickwalled, all of my influences are metal and rap and I don’t see any reason why I can’t bring that into film music, metal/rap is heavily brickwalled so therefore it was just natural for me to apply that aesthetic to what I’ve been doing with film music


----------



## Pier

kgdrum said:


> @KEM
> This might be hard for you to understand,you’re young and talented but you have the background and perspective of a 23 year old.
> I’m confident in telling you many of your musical opinions will fall by the wayside as you get older. Good musicians grow,change course and go in different directions and drastically change conceptually as they gain experience.
> Most musicians if not all can not begin to fathom how their approach to music and playing change from when they were in their early twenties to a decade or two later…………


Exactly this. Boy I was such an idiot in my 20s lol.

Idiot might not be the right word, rather that I listen much better (I'm more sensitive) in my 40s than ever before in my life. My hearing has naturally gotten worse (can't hear anything past 15-16k) so it must be something in the brain.


----------



## KEM

Pier said:


> Exactly this. Boy I was such an idiot in my 20s lol.
> 
> Idiot might not be the right word, rather that I listen much better (I'm more sensitive) in my 40s than ever before in my life. My hearing has naturally gotten worse (can't hear anything past 15-16k) so it must be something in the brain.



I mean, I am an idiot in my 20s, no denying that lol


----------



## Henu

SupremeFist said:


> Heavy clipping and limiting is often part of the style of the genre


Yes, I have a very long history with metal music which is the same to an extent and have mastered easily over hundred metal albums myself. My point was that I can hear that KEM's music isn't mixed properly to reach the desired loudness in the first place and there has been too much processing in the master to fix that. Apples and oranges.


----------



## GtrString

I think the main issue is the paradigm of realism in classical music, which is transferred to scores. You want to preserve dynamics like you hear them sitting in front of the orchestra. But when you start recording, you are in fact sampling. You can never get 100% of realism, perhaps maybe 60-70% at best. Music production is meant to help restore those 30-40% you lose when you start recording. 

But the levels makes perfectly sense of course, if you listen to immersive soundsystems with many speakers, as the sound adds up. Scores are definitely not made for listening on streaming services, and it doesn't make much sense to do additional mixes, as there are no business case for it.


----------



## SupremeFist

Henu said:


> Yes, I have a very long history with metal music which is the same to an extent and have mastered easily over hundred metal albums myself. My point was that I can hear that KEM's music isn't mixed properly to reach the desired loudness in the first place and there has been too much processing in the master to fix that. Apples and oranges.


🤘🏻


----------



## Consona

KEM said:


> I was listening to the Mission Impossible Fallout soundtrack and it while it is truly an amazing body of work


I hope you mean just mixing-wise.


----------



## J-M

I'm too lazy to read the whole thread. Which soundtracks are we talking about? Film or games? I'm a few years older than @KEM and I do prefer more dynamic range in music. Metal bands (which I listen to a lot), looking at you, damn it!


----------



## Henu

J-M said:


> Metal bands (which I listen to a lot), looking at you, damn it!


Stop listening to bad modern metal bands, problem solved.


----------



## Greeno

The thing that annoysme more than anything is dialogue being really quiet and music and fx much louder...and what is with all the mumblers in tv series (especially netflix etc) so much mumbling going on?!!!

For me loudness wars are symbolic and symptomatic of everything wrong in this world. "How can we squash this natural thing into a box and quantify the hell out of it so that we can sell more, so it favoured over others by virtue of being louder?". It is equal to the way we treat the natural world and each other, like commodities/resources to be conquered and sold and not the beautiful, natural, organic things that they are. We deny the natural way of the sine waves which is the way nature intended them to be heard, not flattened out in post recording processes.
I say this as a Drum n Bass producer with releases on labels, I feel the peer/scene pressure to limit the tracks up to as close to -0db as possible but I try to resist, especially for more organic/soulful tracks. I know that plenty of successful artists are fed up with this 'arms race'..all we need to do is start lowering that dial by a few db to give some headroom and others in the community will follow suit.


----------



## MartinH.

Easy Pickens said:


> What you're really saying is that in a recording with natural dynamics, the loud parts are too loud for you.


Thanks, this is the perfect way to put it! I find even some people's natural speaking voice painfully loud, I couldn't deal with the volumes at which all the concert fans here listen to classical music. I know they listen that loud, because otherwise you couldn't hear the quiet parts, and I highly doubt they all ride the volume dial up and down manually all the time like I'd have to do when listening to that kind of music. 

No joke, I need a limiter or compressor on classical concert recordings to enjoy them more. At a live concert I need to wear ear plugs or else it hurts. 

And all modern movie sound mixes annoy the everliving fuck out of me! Constantly have to fiddle with the volume to have a chance at understanding their poorly mixed mumbled dialog without waking my neighbours with the ridiculously loud and boomy sound effects. I would _love_ to have a brickwall limiter built into netflix. With media players for dvds etc. I've always activated that feature in the driver settings.


The waveforms of my favorite bands look like this: 












Well actually that's not quite fair as a preview and looks like I'm taking the piss, so lets zoom in: 






I usually listen to that at a volume where the snare drum is at or below the volume level of my mouse button's click sound. Absolutely no one here would say that is "loud" if you were in the room with me.





KEM said:


> Not true, the perceived dynamic range would be the exact same, if you turn up a track to higher volume you’re not changing the range from the lowest point to the highest, all of that stays the same, you just get a louder track overall and that’s just better in every way


I don't know the tech details, but there may even be advantages (or disadvantages) regarding the fidelity of audio information depending on how the available bitdepth is spread accross the available volume range.




Pier said:


> Of course everyone prefers things at a louder volume, that's how the brain works. But if you just want it louder, why not simply increasing the volume of your speakers or headphones?


Because the next commercial will give me a heart attack and/or wake my neighbours. And you can't conveniently put tracks in a playlist on shuffle when the volume differences are so big.


But whatever, I barely listen to music anymore anyway. And if I do it's usually the same soundtrack or band on repeat for a long time and then I switch. Not a big deal for me how audio releases are mastered one way or the other. It's the sound mixes for movies and series that rile my up!


----------



## Henu

As a fun comparison, here's how an EP (25 min) full of black metal looks which I mixed and mastered.

Nobody complained- on the contrary. Fuck the loudness war!


----------



## KEM

You guys are the same people that complained about TENET being “too loud” in theaters aren’t you…


----------



## Pier

KEM said:


> You guys are the same people that complained about TENET being “too loud” in theaters aren’t you…


I never saw Tenet in theaters, but it was fine on my home theater.

I love its sound except the dialogue mixing. I still think that was terrible. Personally, I don't buy all the reasoning from Nolan. If he doesn't want the audience to care about dialogue, then why write a script that can't be understood without the dialogue and has tons of exposition?


----------



## KEM

Pier said:


> I never saw Tenet in theaters, but it was fine on my home theater.
> 
> I love its sound except the dialogue mixing. I still think that was terrible. Personally, I don't buy all the reasoning from Nolan. If he doesn't want the audience to care about dialogue, then why write a script that can't be understood without the dialogue and has tons of exposition?



Personally I didn’t have any issues with the dialogue, only scene where the dialogue isn’t audible is the sailing scene but I thought it made sense that you couldn’t really hear it, but after subsequent viewings I know exactly what’s being said now so I have no complaints


----------



## D Halgren

The gunshots in Dunkirk Imax may have done permanent damage to my hearing. Was not happy about that. Which incidentally made me not give a shit about seeing things in the theater anymore. My home theater is much more enjoyable.


----------



## Pier

D Halgren said:


> The gunshots in Dunkirk Imax may have done permanent damage to my hearing. Was not happy about that. Which incidentally made me not give a shit about seeing things in the theater anymore. My home theater is much more enjoyable.


I think Dune might have done the same for me... I've developed a bit of tinnitus since I watched it on a theater a month ago.

Because of COVID here in Mexico all theater rooms must have the doors open so now you can hear all the loud noises from the other rooms. I suspect the theater might have increased the volume because people complained about that...


----------



## Niah2

This is loud enough for me and often times my reference mix.


----------



## KEM

I’ve never thought a film mix was too loud, TENET was easily the loudest I’ve ever heard and I thought it was perfect!! My favorite film mix easily


----------



## D Halgren

KEM said:


> I’ve never thought a film mix was too loud, TENET was easily the loudest I’ve ever heard and I thought it was perfect!! My favorite film mix easily


Let me know how that goes for you in 30 years.


----------



## Kent

KEM said:


> I’ve never thought a film mix was too loud, TENET was easily the loudest I’ve ever heard and I thought it was perfect!! My favorite film mix easily


What does this even _mean_ though? AFAIK there is no real standard for cinema loudness. A range of '1' bits in the WAV file is not equivalent to output volume—for all we know your local theater's speaker gain knob is turned down 30 dB softer than mine, or Pier's, or someone else's.

Brickwalled audio is just really soft audio. You can pump the gain to get volume back but at the end of the day everything is quieted.

Again, I highly recommend watching this video:


----------



## Pier

kmaster said:


> Brickwalled audio is just really soft audio.


Exactly. There's just no impact since you lose the transients.

Dan Worrall talks a lot about this.


----------



## KEM

I disagree, you can still perceive transients even with limiting, you can still perceive dynamics with limiting


----------



## NoamL

KEM said:


> You all keep saying to just turn up the volume but that doesn’t change the fact that the mastering is too quiet, they don’t even have to limit, clip, or compress more to get them louder, the peak loudness points are still way quieter than they could be, they’re leaving way to much headroom available and there’s just no need for it


It's because of the difference between a "drop" and a "climax."

Some film cues with great drops would be cues like Zimmer's "Mountains" from Interstellar or LG's "Rainy Night" at the start of TENET. Really great cues both of them.

*An orchestra cannot perform a "drop" *because the instruments are just too inconsistent. Especially in the bass register the orchestra is inconsistent as hell. If you want to write 50 bars of grooving bass at fortissimo, the orchestra just can't perform that, it exceeds their limits of endurance and agility.

But one man's "inconsistency" is another man's "dynamics," you can turn lemons into lemonade by writing music that pushes forward and develops over time - exploring variations on a theme or modulating through different tonalities - until it arrives at a climactic resolution. This climax is necessarily short because most of the orchestra has strict endurance limits at high volumes. So it's the buildup that makes or breaks a climax.

Also the instruments that can be added in an orchestral climax are typically higher register instruments. So an orchestral climax creates a feeling of completeness or richness as the orchestra spreads out to the full spectrum of its range (not unlike the THX logo sound...)

The reason for preserving dynamics is to MAXIMIZE the emotional impact of the moment of climax. In something like Williams's "Leia's Theme," you only hear the full orchestra, trumpets on top, piatti, etc for 3 bars... so those 3 bars better eclipse what happened before in the cue. If the music was already hitting the limiter for 3 or 4 in the second before the climax, what's the point of punctuating the music with a cymbal crash?

Long story short, if you want consistent loudness the orchestra is not your animal. But if you want goosebumps...


----------



## Pier

KEM said:


> I disagree, you can still perceive transients even with limiting, you can still perceive dynamics with limiting


Depends on how much limiting.

See these videos.


----------



## NoamL

KEM said:


> You guys are the same people that complained about TENET being “too loud” in theaters aren’t you…


oh 100%, Dunkirk is the last Nolan film I'm ever going to see in theaters. The rest I'll watch on my computer, with my finger on the volume button, and subtitles on. He is an auteur so he can do whatever he wants, but I'm not gonna go in a theater and hear those borderline physically painful sounds with no control.


----------



## KEM

NoamL said:


> oh 100%, Dunkirk is the last Nolan film I'm ever going to see in theaters. The rest I'll watch on my computer, with my finger on the volume button, and subtitles on. He is an auteur so he can do whatever he wants, but I'm not gonna go in a theater and hear those borderline physically painful sounds with no control.



I had no issues with the volume for TENET, unfortunately I didn’t see Dunkirk in IMAX but I’m sure it wouldn’t have phased me


----------



## MartinH.

NoamL said:


> oh 100%, Dunkirk is the last Nolan film I'm ever going to see in theaters. The rest I'll watch on my computer, with my finger on the volume button, and subtitles on. He is an auteur so he can do whatever he wants, but I'm not gonna go in a theater and hear those borderline physically painful sounds with no control.


Seriously, this noise should be illegal. I bring earplugs to the theater as if it was some kind of band rehearsal or concert. Have been doing that for a decade because I really don't wannt my tinnitus to get worse. I got it from hearing live rock music at a rehearsal without ear protection _once_. Permanent ringing for the rest of my life...


----------



## KEM

MartinH. said:


> Seriously, this noise should be illegal. I bring earplugs to the theater as if it was some kind of band rehearsal or concert. Have been doing that for a decade because I really don't wannt my tinnitus to get worse. I got it from hearing live rock music at a rehearsal without ear protection _once_. Permanent ringing for the rest of my life...



How old were you?


----------



## MartinH.

KEM said:


> How old were you?


About 17 or 18 I think, why?
Edit: actually 16 is more likely now that I think about it.


----------



## KEM

MartinH. said:


> About 17 or 18 I think, why?
> Edit: actually 16 is more likely now that I think about it.



I’m 24 and have been going to metal shows since I was about 12 and never had an issue, no family history of hearing loss or tinnitus either so maybe I’m just lucky


----------



## MartinH.

KEM said:


> so maybe I’m just lucky


You are, but no one is immune to this. It'll catch up to you and when you notice it, it'll be too late to fix. I wouldn't keep doing what you're doing if I was you. Tinnitus sucks, hearing loss probably too, though I'm not sure what's worse, since I only have the former.


----------



## KEM

MartinH. said:


> You are, but no one is immune to this. It'll catch up to you and when you notice it, it'll be too late to fix. I wouldn't keep doing what you're doing if I was you. Tinnitus sucks, hearing loss probably too, though I'm not sure what's worse, since I only have the former.



I keep my monitors at a decent volume, nothing that’ll blow my eye drums out, and my friends have told me that wearing earplugs to concerts allows you to actually hear the sound better anyways so I’ll probably start doing that, only time I wanna hear loud music with no protection is when I’m watching a Nolan film in IMAX


----------



## CATDAD

KEM said:


> I keep my monitors at a decent volume, nothing that’ll blow my eye drums out, and my friends have told me that wearing earplugs to concerts allows you to actually hear the sound better anyways so I’ll probably start doing that, only time I wanna hear loud music with no protection is when I’m watching a Nolan film in IMAX


Protect those ears while you can!

I've had friends go out to shows every week, citing they were fine and still had great hearing. But then _that one time_...

Think of it like when someone gets a crippling back injury that they could have prevented in hindsight. Everyone can get away with lifting and carrying stuff in an unsafe way for some time before they permanently injure themselves, but if they keep doing it it WILL happen.

It's not unusual for people with permanent hearing loss and/or tinnitus to be able to cite one specific event where their hearing changed and never recovered. On the opposite end of that, some peoples' hearing damage happens gradually enough that they don't even know it's happening until everyone around them complains that they turn their volume up too much.

The nice thing about wearing ear protection to places with powerful sound systems is you can still feel the sound moving through your body, which is really what those big systems are for.



As for the original topic, too much dynamic range can actually infuriate me at home, but it's not usually because of the music, but rather the sound and dialogue. This problem is not as bad in the theater, where the quiet parts will be loud enough to hear, but it still can be if the sound there is allowed to reach uncomfortable top levels. For music specifically, film is probably the best-case scenario for maximum dynamics though, with limiting being done stylistically if there's a certain EDM/Pop/Rock/Metal/etc sound trying to be met.

With more viewing being done at home on smaller devices and sound systems, a little less dynamic range could serve well. Where the low points disappear, and the high points are boomy, screechy, and ear-piercing, perhaps disturbing the neighbours on speakers. But then maybe that should just be optionally applied through the consumer's device rather than directly in the media itself.


----------



## quickbrownf0x

So I'm a 40-year old fart who likes to knit sweaters on a saturday night and complains about my wife cheating with our weekly bingo game (like hiding bingo numbers under the couch when I shuffle off to the toilet every 5 minutes) and spilling hot choco all over my house slippers, so maybe this issue isn't really in my wheelhouse, _but _I was thinking 'sure, I get both sides, but what if the composer intentionally decided to add a section where it is _supposed_ to be (very) quiet?'. I like doing that myself - it's just another tool in your toolbox you can mess around with. Why, in that case would you ditch that tool and go 'meeeh, let's brickwall the sh*t out it'? Same for parts that are _meant_ to be loud, I guess. What's also weird is that all these big streaming platforms tend to compress pretty agressively as well. Just when you thought you've found a really good balance - here comes Youtube, f*cking it up again. 

Secondly- Tenet was annoyingly loud for my old ass ears. Get the concept, but man - ouch.

Thirdly- is Zebra3 on BF sale yet? **No? Damn it.


----------



## jtnyc

KEM said:


> I love how loud my music is, and that’s not going to change


It may be loud compared to another master, but it's not really "loud" unless the listener turns it up. This is such a strange point that you are making. If you say you just flatly (pun intended) prefer music that has no dynamics, ok then, that's your preference, but a flat lined brick wall limited file is not loud per say, it's just louder then other masters. It is however dynamically flat.

If it's a blazing rock track or an EDM track and the original intent is no mercy from top to end, then sure, brick wall limiting can accentuate that and work really well, but if the intent of the band or composer is to get real quiet and then ramp up to a huge crescendo and open up into an epic ending,... well then that's what I want to experience. Why squash that? Subtlety and dynamics are so important. It's part of the ride. If you like it loud, turn up the volume.


----------



## KEM

jtnyc said:


> It may be loud compared to another master, but it's not really "loud" unless the listener turns it up. This is such a strange point that you are making. If you say you just flatly (pun intended) prefer music that has no dynamics, ok then, that's your preference, but a flat lined brick wall limited file is not loud per say, it's just louder then other masters. It is however dynamically flat.
> 
> If it's a blazing rock track or an EDM track and the original intent is no mercy from top to end, then sure, brick wall limiting can accentuate that and work really well, but if the intent of the band or composer is to get real quiet and then ramp up to a huge crescendo and open up into an epic ending,... well then that's what I want to experience. Why squash that? Subtlety and dynamics are so important. It's part of the ride. If you like it loud, turn up the volume.



To be fair it will only be as loud as the streaming service you’re using allows it to be, but we export everything at -0.3db, and you can still have quiet points if you’re using clipping and limiting, only difference is the quiet parts are more audible


----------



## Kent

KEM said:


> To be fair it will only be as loud as the streaming service you’re using allows it to be, but we export everything at -0.3db, and you can still have quiet points if you’re using clipping and limiting, only difference is the quiet parts are more audible


Did you watch the video I posted? That's really not how it works...


----------



## KEM

kmaster said:


> Did you watch the video I posted? That's really not how it works...



Not yet I’ve been playing Halo Infinite with my friends all day


----------



## jtnyc

KEM said:


> only difference is the quiet parts are more audible


Those quiet parts will be more audible (that's established. That's what brick wall limiting does) and those parts will now most likely convey more low end than originally intended, and potentially more noise, and just generally sound more hyped than intended. On top of that, the dynamic ride that was intended is now squashed out. I just don't see the point.

I'm sure there are instances where there is too much of a disparity between the quietest and loudest parts of certain music, but in general I prefer a wide dynamic range.

Another downside of too much BW limiting is that sound of squeezing, squashing, pressure that so much of todays music suffers from. It alters the sound of a performance and somehow makes it feel less real, less authentic, less emotional. Kinda digital fake plastic music... Combine that with sample libraries, quantized rhythms, pre recorded loops etc and you have a lot of homogenized forgettable crap that all pretty much sounds the same IMO, but that's another subject -)


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## Kent

This is a bit over-simplified, but consider this very hypothetical set of numbers:



Code:


sample:   a     b     c     d     e     f     g     h     i     j
value:     25   16    09   40   60   08  10   45   23  56


This represents a hypothetical song's wav file values.

We brick-wall limit and get:


Code:


sample:   a     b     c     d     e     f     g     h     i     j
value:     10   10    09  10   10   08   10   10   10  10


Compression and limiting like this made sense, in some scenarios, when we had physical media that needed to be maximized (vinyl, tape, CD, and how those are broadcast over radio). After raising the gain to the max, we could have:



Code:


sample:   a     b     c     d     e     f     g     h     i     j
value:     100 100  90  100 100  80 100 100 100 100


...which would then be played back against any other tune in that medium, and so no matter where the gain dial was (even if it was back at 10) we'd still be at an average peak value of 97% of the max bandwidth available — very fat sausage, indeed!

However, now it's on a streaming service, and the streaming service likes to stream such that average loudness (again, remember this is an oversimplification, but this hand-waviness suffices for the illustration here) is 20 with a headroom of 50. So it takes our 97%-average-peak sausage and turns it down such that:
new_max_peak_val_brick = 20 / 0.97 = 20.618

So your quietest quiets (f, 80% of the max value) are now 16.49 out of 50 (which equates to *33%* of the max loudness range) and your loudest loud peaks, which max out the bandwidth available, hit 20.618, which only ultimately hits *41.2%* of the max loudness range available— very _quiet _sausage, indeed!

Now, taking that same original file:


Code:


sample:   a     b     c     d     e     f     g     h     i     j
value:     25   16    09   40   60   08  10   45   23  56


And maintaining its relative dynamic levels while gaining it such that its loudest part hits 100 (i.e. multiplying each val by ~1.67) gives us:



Code:


sample:   a        b        c        d        e        f        g        h        i        j
value:      41.8   26.7   15    66.8   100     13.3   16.7    75.2   38.4   93.5


...which would give us an average peak value of 48.74%.

And then putting it on that same streaming service (which normalizes to average of 20 with a headroom of 50) would give us:
new_max_peak_val_natural = 20 / 0.4874 = 41.03

Here, our quietest quiets (f, 13.3% of the max value) are 5.46 out of 50 (= *10.9% *of the max loudness range, _which is about *3 times quieter* than the 33% above_) and our loudest-loud peaks are 41.03, *82.06%* of the maximum 50... and just about *twice as much volume as the quiet sausage!*
On this streaming service, which is normalized to the loudnesses, the more dynamic version feels both objectively more energetic (because it is) and also psychoacoustically more energetic (because there is a greater difference between the loudest and softest moments, which heightens their perceived differences).

In other words: make a sausage because you like the squashed/distorted characteristics of the genre, but—especially if streaming—not because you want it to be louder.

The sausage is both objectively and subjectively softer at any given listening/loudness level.


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## Troels Folmann

Cause (too much) compression kills the air, the silk, the sweet and fluid dynamics of the orchestra.


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## SyMTiK

kmaster said:


> In other words: make a sausage because you like the squashed/distorted characteristics of the genre, but—especially if streaming—not because you want it to be louder.


This. I think more than anything compression is a "sound". If that is a desired sound you are after there is nothing wrong with that, but I also think its important to understand why you are using it and also why excessive compression might not always work well in certain scenarios. I find that compression can be used successfully to get maximum loudness potential out of a certain section (like a chorus for instance) but works best if you automate the level of the verses and other sections going into the compression. I find a lot of commercial masters that sound very amateur and poorly executed because they slap a heavy amount of compression across the entire master bus but pay no attention to how it affects the relationship between the level in the verses and choruses. If the verse and chorus are equally loud the chorus loses all of its impact. 

Like absolutely, compress your drums and distort your basses and synths, create interesting textures with compression and distortion, but don't just go compressing the shit out of every section of the orchestra for the sake of it in pursuit of a record breaking LUFS reading hahaha


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## mscp

KEM said:


> Film scores need more brickwall limiting!!


sarcasm?


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## AudioLoco

KEM said:


> You guys can hate me all you want for it but this is exactly how I like my waveforms to look, this is what I strive for


ah.... Kanye West.
That explains everything


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## KEM

AudioLoco said:


> ah.... Kanye West.
> That explains everything



Ok boomer


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## Tralen

SupremeFist said:


> If you've ever considered it acceptable to use any amount of compression in a mix, then the idea of "natural dynamics" is already out of the window and we're just quibbling about matters of degree.


That is not entirely accurate, I believe, since when we are physically in a room, with the sound source, our perception will adjust to even out that performance in a manner that a microphone capture won't do.

I would argue that we need to add some compression if we want to attain "natural dynamics" when listening after the fact.


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## SupremeFist

Tralen said:


> That is not entirely accurate, I believe, since when we are physically in a room, with the sound source, our perception will adjust to even out that performance in a manner that a microphone capture won't do.
> 
> I would argue that we need to add some compression if we want to attain "natural dynamics" when listening after the fact.


That is a good point!


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## KEM

And not just any compression, we’re talking OTT


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## Tralen

KEM said:


> And not just any compression, we’re talking OTT


If you are talking natural dynamics, of course not, otherwise how would you judge distance? If your brain brickwalled everything, everything would sound as if right next to you.


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## KEM

Tralen said:


> If you are talking natural dynamics, of course not, otherwise how would you judge distance? If your brain brickwalled everything, everything would sound as if right next to you.



I’m just kidding about that one lol, I definitely don’t put OTT on anything orchestral, brings out wayyyyy too much noise


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## SupremeFist

KEM said:


> I’m just kidding about that one lol, I definitely don’t put OTT on anything orchestral, brings out wayyyyy too much noise


Actually I think @José Herring said he uses it on brass?


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## KEM

SupremeFist said:


> Actually I think @José Herring said he uses it on brass?



Definitely not with the mix at 100% if I had to guess


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## NoamL

Disagreements about musical taste aside, you should take seriously the advice of the "boomers" here to protect your hearing!


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## José Herring

KEM said:


> Definitely not with the mix at 100% if I had to guess


Start at 0 then dial up until you hear it get that edge. It kills a bit of low end though so turn up the mid knob and the bass knob on Ott. It starts to sound pretty cool for hybrid type orchestrations. All to taste of course.


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## KEM

NoamL said:


> Disagreements about musical taste aside, you should take seriously the advice of the "boomers" here to protect your hearing!



I do!! Gotta protect the money makers of course


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## KEM

José Herring said:


> Start at 0 then dial up until you hear it get that edge. It kills a bit of low end though so turn up the mid knob and the bass knob on Ott. It starts to sound pretty cool for hybrid type orchestrations. All to taste of course.



I usually keep the downward knob at around 80% to keep the lows intact, Slate just released their own OTT plugin which I’ve downloaded but haven’t had a chance to check it out yet, seems like a much more fleshed out version of OTT so hopefully it can get some really cool results


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