# Newb Questions on new Mac purchase and Slave workflow



## mrj1nx (Sep 3, 2017)

EDIT 15 Sept:
I decided upon a new iMac, i7 4,2GHZ, 8 GB ram (upgrade separately), 512 ssd, and after that I'll expand with slaves if needed.
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Hello there,

I am way overdue for upgrading my computer. I'm a mac guy and use Logic Pro X. I have an old maxxed out 2011 MBP that is starting to show it's age. (I can probably pull out the ssd from that one). I also have a maxxed out 2014 macbook air 11" that works surprisingly good for modest projects, (1,7 ghz dual core, and 8 gb ram) but it was never intended to use for music. On both computer I feel like i've bumped into the upper limit of the capabilities way to many times and doing a lot of freezing etc. I need more horsepower.

So I've been looking at Macbook Pro vs iMac, and have been very concerned with thermal throttling, especially on the mbp. I've hung out mostly on KVR, but luckily I found this place where the build discussions seem to be more in depth.

One of my concerns with buying a new mac is the price to performance ratio. Getting a single machine to handle it all becomes very expensive and as some say here, iMac pro seems pretty overkill in price. So I am looking at VEP or other solutions (bidule?) and a possible windows slave machine, so far I have never used any tool like that and have never done a two computer setup.

The thing is, so far I don't work with a huge set of sample libraries (but I will be heading slowly towards that direction in the future as I build up my library). I mostly do a lot of tweaking on all my instrument instances. So I was thinking about the option of using Synergy and running VEP and actually having a second screen all the time with my slave computer and doing tweaking/routing etc in there... I don't know how viable that workflow would be, so feedback and thoughts from people who have done VEP workflow would be awesome. I might be going the wrong thought paths. I'm thinking that I might be giving up a lot of the synergies in Logic by doing a lot of the tweaking in VEP/slace computer instead. Like bus routing, midi effects etc... Feels like it might not be a viable workflow.

Anyhow right now I'm leaning towards getting an iMac 27" with the best i7, 8gb ram (upgrade later) and 500gb ssd. That would get me started without a slave and then I can see how far it takes me before I even feel the need for a slave. Any input on my situation would be highly appreciated.


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## bjderganc (Sep 4, 2017)

You're on the right track. That machine would be the best choice for a front-end audio Mac.

The current 7700k ("4.2") isn't that much faster than the 2015 6700k ("4.0"), and that minor speed increase does come with a bit more heat. My 2015 2.8 rMPB throttles a fair bit (it reaches 100c fairly often), but the 2017s run a little cooler.

You could go with the 2015 iMac (here's a nice refurb) and have a great machine that's nearly as good as their 2017 refresh. The limitation of the iMac is it only supports 64GB of RAM, so if you want more you need to think about a server. (upgrade the RAM via OWC to save $$$).


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## galactic orange (Sep 4, 2017)

bjderganc said:


> You could go with the 2015 iMac (here's a nice refurb) and have a great machine that's nearly as good as their 2017 refresh. The limitation of the iMac is it only supports 64GB of RAM, so if you want more you need to think about a server. (upgrade the RAM via OWC to save $$$).


Correct me if I'm mistaken, but didn't Apple raise the iMac's RAM upper limit to 64GB with the 2017 model? Prior to that I thought 32GB was the limit.


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## bjderganc (Sep 4, 2017)

galactic orange said:


> Correct me if I'm mistaken, but didn't Apple raise the iMac's RAM upper limit to 64GB with the 2017 model? Prior to that I thought 32GB was the limit.



Good question. It's officially 32GB, but (like other Mac products) it's been found to support more. It's a case-by-case thing, of course. More info at Every Mac.

Since OWC sells 64GB, related problems would be on them. In my anecdotal experience OWC is a great company that stands behind their stuff.


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## Kent (Sep 4, 2017)

64 is possible with the late 2015 27" model and newer.

I had really bad OWC RAM issues with my late 2015 though - twice in a row! - so I went with Crucial and have not looked back.


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## galactic orange (Sep 4, 2017)

Thanks for the clarification! I'm waiting on the next wave of Mac Pros (or Minis) and I have some of the same concerns as the OP. 
I've hit the limit with my 2012 Mini, but can't seem to find the best solution. The choices for now are iMac, 2013 Mac Pro, or wait...

It's great that there are so many people willing to share knowledge and advice here on VI Control.


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## bjderganc (Sep 4, 2017)

If they would only put the 7700k in a Mini that would be the ultimate Mac for audio. Being able to tuck it under a desk mitigates the potential fan noise issues. Of course they won't do that, it makes too much sense


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## galactic orange (Sep 4, 2017)

bjderganc said:


> If they would only put the 7700k in a Mini that would be the ultimate Mac for audio. Being able to tuck it under a desk mitigates the potential fan noise issues. Of course they won't do that, it makes too much sense


If they did that and allowed 32GB RAM, I'd get two of them and link them together for a sweet rig.


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## Publius (Sep 5, 2017)

This is a great forum for music DAW related questions, but as a former mac owner, if you are a mac owner and want lots of information and options about their product line, there are tons of good discussions over at macrumors.com. More specific to the machines and os, not necessarily DAW stuff, though.

Someone mentioned the mac mini--there are some discussions that apple may be abandoning that form factor, in favor if the imac. There are advantages to keeping a separate monitor and computer, but it doesn't look like apple sees it that way. Again, macrumors has better information on this than I do at this point.

As to the future of mac pro--lots of room for debate there. I believe there is a lot of uncertainty as to its future as well, depending on how much stock one puts into apple's vague assurances. Aside from observing there is some concern among many mac owners, I have no basis for anything other than speculation along those lines. If you want to read 1,000+ pages of discussion on that, you know where to look. 

My guess isn't worth anything more than the next guys, but my prediction is that the new mac pro, when it arrives, will be a specially branded high end imac.


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## JohnG (Sep 5, 2017)

Not to rain on your plan @mrj1nx but maybe you should start with the slave and keep the Mac you already have? You can add a whopping PC slave for much less money than buying a "big" Mac. I have seen robust PC builds here whose cost ranges from something like $1,200 to about $2,000 with good processors and lots (64GB) of RAM.

That way, you convert the use of your laptop to more of a midi controller with much of the heavy lifting of samples attended to on the PC.


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## mrj1nx (Sep 5, 2017)

JohnG - good point, the main concern there is how the workflow would be with VEP since I'm not big on sample libraries but rather use a lot of synths like u-he, and usually do a fair bit of tweaking on most of the instruments. I'm concerned that I will spend a lot of my time on the slave screen, and that the workflow will become slow/cumbersome. Any feedback on that? I'm not sure how much "dawlike" features the VEP host program has, like doing midi learn on parameters and so forth...


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## JohnG (Sep 5, 2017)

mrj1nx said:


> I'm not big on sample libraries but rather use a lot of synths like u-he



Aha! In your case, I'd opt for a big Mac; I agree with you that, given your workflow, the slave computer route makes much less sense. 

So the question might be, how do you reduce cost but still have the ability to Achieve Greatness? 

I also use a ton of u-he etc., and have had good luck with a refurbished 12-core Mac with 64GB of RAM -- refurbished by a computer guy, not Apple. It was less than $3k. They basically rip the guts out and put in the latest stuff. The disadvantages of going the refurbished route are:

- no Thunderbolt (conceivably could be ameliorated with a PCI/PCIe card but not sure it would be as fast as full TB speed)
- no USB 3.x on older Macs
- possible "under the hood" limitations? bus speed? I didn't investigate that stuff


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## mrj1nx (Sep 5, 2017)

Do you have the 6,1 or 5,1? I found CreatePro the other day and emailed with them about the 5,1 Mac Pro, their refurbished pro audio machine is around 3500 usd which is a bit under what the new iMac cost (SingleCore GeekBench score is about 2500 while the MultiCore score is somewhere over 30000). On one hand it looks pretty attractive, on the other hand, I feel like the iMac might still be a pretty solid deal for the same money. A 5,1 might be interesting if I could get a good deal on one first, the CreatePro prices is a little bit too high to be a no-brainer for me for such an old computer. I may be wrong though. The biggest concern for those computers is pretty much forward compatability with macOS and Logic Pro X updates in the next 3-5 years.


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## Publius (Sep 5, 2017)

In the last year, I sold a 2012 5,1 with a 6 cpu upgrade and 32 gig of ram for under $1,000--I started higher and lowered the price week by week until it sold. I understand the dual cpu models command a higher price. So... $3,500 seems a bit steep to me. I found ebay a good place to shop for used mac pros--as most people on craiglist are delusional about what their used computer is worth.

I am kind of guessing here, but I think the imac would have thunderbolt which the classic pro does not. The imac comes with a pretty nice screen too. Remember, those 5,1 macs are a 5 year old design/technology--really 7 because no significant changes over the 2010 model. OTOH, a well specified imac is going to be spendy.

I have seen dual cpu trays for the 5,1 on ebay--and I think the dual tray takes more ram--as the previous poster mentioned apparently 64 gig. So, that's an option if you get a really good deal on a single cpu 5,1 and you want to upgrade. The cpu/ram tray just slides out and the new one slides in.

Also, there are a lot of surplus xeons from old servers floating around the market and some of these make for an inexpensive way to upgrade one's 4,1 or 5,1. the 4,1 is a hassle to upgrade, the 5,1 is a breeze. Macrumors.com has a thread which shows which cpus have proven to work in macs, and directions on how to do the work.

Not in any way pushing the 5,1 mac pro, just sharing options. When I got to this decision point earlier this year, I switched to PC.


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## mrj1nx (Sep 5, 2017)

Ive been contemplating os/daw switch for the music machine too. Just out of curiosity, what daw are you on now? I've been doing some reading on cubase lately.


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## Publius (Sep 5, 2017)

I had logic on the mac, so that was just money I had to throw away, but I figure that was part of the investment of getting off the mac ecostructure. I did a fair amount of checking around and ended up with Cubase. I don't have very big projects, but its working flawlessly for me. I thought about protools but at the time they did not have a purchase option, just subscription and I am not ready for subscription. I saw some heavy-duty industry film composers using cubase, so I figured I would not grow out of it. But...there are others out there that might be good as well--there is sonar which seems inexpensive. Ableton live and fl studio--perhaps more loop music oriented. And a couple of newer offerings. In sum, while acknowledging my chronic indecision about daws, I think Cubase was a good option.

I started with the $100 version, but they have limited the functions to the point where it is not usable for me. I went up to artist. Then there was $100 off pro upgrade, so I did the upgrade. I think if one buys pro directly, there is $100 off if you have a competing product already. Steinberg's website is unnecessarily confusing, but the facts are there to be found. Cubase has a dongle which bugs me, but I just have it plugged into a usb port on the mobo, so its not going to get broken. Also, Cubase runs on a mac too.

Cubase plug-ins are likely more than adequate, but since I had isotope and waves products from way back, I took advantage of some good upgrade offers. My thought there was that I wanted good plug ins I could use if I change daw--to what extent that is of real benefit, I can't say...

My thought on the hardware is now I can upgrade to any hardware I want when the time comes. I build my own, so I will typically upgrade the cpu which requires new mobo and ram, and keep the video card, SSDs, case and power supply. It looks like I need to buy a new copy of windows 10 whenever I change mobos, but a small price to pay to not spend $3,500-5,000 on a mac to get current.

Nothing against macs--they worked fine for me, I just made a decision that I felt made sense for me. Since I can build my own PCs, I have access to savings that not everybody does. It used to be the mac os was flawless and windows required a lot of tinkering, but that does not appear to be the case anymore. It seems weird to have windows and not have to tinker with the settings, but its for the best.


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## mrj1nx (Sep 6, 2017)

The new iMac i7 option has the following scores:
*5668*
*Single-Core Score*
*19303*
*Multi-Core Score
*
Compare this to a refurb 6,1 Mac Pro that has ~3500 Single-Core and ~30000 Multi-Core, for the same price (10 core custom refurb) Then I have to get the screen as well so it turns out to be more expensive.

I discussed this with a collegue today who said that its widely regarded that single core is more important for music. Given that info, I feel like the new iMac may be the best mac for the money right now. If the new Mac Pro turns out to be very attractive price to performance wise, I can always sell my iMac then.


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## Publius (Sep 6, 2017)

mrj1nx said:


> ...I discussed this with a collegue today who said that its widely regarded that single core is more important for music...



My thought as well. There are simply a lot of things that can't be run on the additional cpus.

Though I have no inside information, by prediction is that the new mac pro will be in an imac form factor--the high end of the line, perhaps re-branded from imac.


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## JohnG (Sep 6, 2017)

mrj1nx said:


> its widely regarded that single core is more important for music



In general, this is true, especially for what you propose to do with it. If you're running soft synths that are processor-intensive (Diva, very involved Omni, lots of Zebra etc.), a fast GHz seems to help. Also, if a lot of those patches have individual reverb and delay on them, extra processing does seem to matter quite a bit.

So, for the OP, my experience suggests fast processor = good.

[edit: this was a PC thread, not Mac. -- so IGNORE for Mac users] That said, there was a post maybe a month or two ago by a user whom I don't know that seemed to argue a different line. He supports a configuration with lots of cores with only 2.6 GHz processors. He said he was getting great results and his stats looked super. If I can find it I'll post link.

for anyone interested, here's the thread -- http://vi-control.net/community/threads/suggestion-most-powerful-machine.61816/ ]


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