# Creating a Logic Pro template bigger than 512 tracks?



## Nuboy (Aug 3, 2017)

Hi, my first post! The maximum number of Instrument and Aux tracks in Logic is 256, combined to make 512 tracks. I want to make a lager template with all my Kontakt instruments (and articulations), via VePro, available from the arrange page.

512 is not enough. Is there a way around this? I've read other posters who say they have 1000+ tracks. How is this possible?

Any suggestions greatfully received.


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## gsilbers (Aug 3, 2017)

Nuboy said:


> Hi, my first post! The maximum number of Instrument and Aux tracks in Logic is 256, combined to make 512 tracks. I want to make a lager template with all my Kontakt instruments (and articulations), via VePro, available from the arrange page.
> 
> 512 is not enough. Is there a way around this? I've read other posters who say they have 1000+ tracks. How is this possible?
> 
> Any suggestions greatfully received.



welcome! 


Thats a LOT of aux tracks that you are using. 

You might want to group different articulations and string libraries into one aux . like spitfire short strings, cinesamples short strings, VSL short string into one aux. and do the same with different articulations. 

Normally the idea is to have VEP as the sample hub and everything coming out of it is already grouped and mixed so you only get the stems in Logic. And those stems might be subdivided first to later group them into bigger stems like general strings, brass perc etc. 

Seems you might be mixing each articulation into its own aux to be treated like its own audio channel instead of assigning several similar groups to its own buss. 

I worked using this method but i just dont like doing the save sample hub and mixing everything with midi so i can see why you might want to send eveything to each own aux. much better control of levels... 

anyways... the trick is here


https://www.vsl.co.at/community/posts/m242447-Logic-Multiport-Template---Logic-Pro-X-10-1#post242447

dowload the multi port layer, build the template around it and mix everything in the slave PC and set few groupped channels back. read a few posts about how it works and there you have 1000+ tracks.


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## Simon Ravn (Aug 3, 2017)

Nuboy said:


> Hi, my first post! The maximum number of Instrument and Aux tracks in Logic is 256, combined to make 512 tracks. I want to make a lager template with all my Kontakt instruments (and articulations), via VePro, available from the arrange page.
> 
> 512 is not enough. Is there a way around this? I've read other posters who say they have 1000+ tracks. How is this possible?
> 
> Any suggestions greatfully received.



They mean 1000 MIDI tracks. You should not need more than 256 instruments and 256 aux'es... If you have 16 MIDI tracks per instrument track, that's 4096 tracks (MIDI tracks, 4096 different instruments/patches available). That is certainly enough for most of us...


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## whinecellar (Aug 3, 2017)

It may not be for everyone, but I'd ditch the whole aux concept altogether and keep it simple - there are several advantages to this. My template is almost 1100 tracks, almost all consisting of 16-channel multitimbral VE Pro instances addressing 4 slave machines. All of them are simple stereo instances - no aux outs whatsoever. Everything is pre-mixed directly in VE Pro, and if I want to process a region/track further, it takes mere seconds to bounce in place.

FWIW, I run all this on a 2014 MacBook Pro with just 16GB RAM; the slaves make it easily doable, and it hasn't even hiccuped once. Creating a bunch of auxes just creates needless complication, potential latency compensation/sync issues, CPU overhead, etc. Simplicity for the win, IMO.

Have fun!


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## Ashermusic (Aug 3, 2017)

Jim is right, simplify.


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## Nuboy (Aug 3, 2017)

Thanks guys, I'll start researching your template set ups.

At the moment, As was said, I have say one instance of Kontakt, containing 16 instruments, with one instrument on each track( instrument or aux) each with its own midi ch controlling each kontakt instrument.

One further question, I get now the 1000+ tracks refers to midi tracks. So using one Logic stereo track I have 16 Instruments running from one instance of kontakt feeding into this (midi ch 1-16).

But how do I create the 16 separate Midi tracks on the Logic arrange page to access these kontakt instances?


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## gsilbers (Aug 3, 2017)

Nuboy said:


> Thanks guys, I'll start researching your template set ups.
> 
> At the moment, As was said, I have say one instance of Kontakt, containing 16 instruments, with one instrument on each track( instrument or aux) each with its own midi ch controlling each kontakt instrument.
> 
> ...


control click on a track , assign it. but create a multi timbral midi object in the environment 1st. or use that multipart template i linked previously. 

or create a multi timbral instrument track with 16 channels of midi and they return to a stereo track if you want.


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## gsilbers (Aug 3, 2017)

whinecellar said:


> It may not be for everyone, but I'd ditch the whole aux concept altogether and keep it simple - there are several advantages to this. My template is almost 1100 tracks, almost all consisting of 16-channel multitimbral VE Pro instances addressing 4 slave machines. All of them are simple stereo instances - no aux outs whatsoever. Everything is pre-mixed directly in VE Pro, and if I want to process a region/track further, it takes mere seconds to bounce in place.
> 
> FWIW, I run all this on a 2014 MacBook Pro with just 16GB RAM; the slaves make it easily doable, and it hasn't even hiccuped once. Creating a bunch of auxes just creates needless complication, potential latency compensation/sync issues, CPU overhead, etc. Simplicity for the win, IMO.
> 
> Have fun!



wait,.. how many VEP plugin instances do you have in your mac book?


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## stonzthro (Aug 3, 2017)

Be smart, like Jim. Simplify.


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## whinecellar (Aug 3, 2017)

gsilbers said:


> wait,.. how many VEP plugin instances do you have in your mac book?



63 at the moment, if I remember right... almost all of which are 16 channels/parts/instruments each.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Aug 3, 2017)

Nuboy said:


> But how do I create the 16 separate Midi tracks on the Logic arrange page to access these kontakt instances?



When you set up VEPro as a software instrument, make sure it's set to multi-timbral, and have it create the 16 tracks. Each of those tracks will have their own MIDI channel (1-16), which correspond to the Kontakt channels in the VEPro instance. The only downside is that you can't control each track individually from Logic, you need to mix inside VEPro itself. To keep things organized in Logic, place those 16 tracks into their own track stack (I prefer summing stacks). Based on what Jay and Jim are doing, I tried this myself a while ago and it works like a charm (I'm also using a MacBook Pro as a master); those guys are experts on this and Jay has tried every possible scenario from what I understand. I also tried the Aux channel thing previously, and it became a logistical nightmare.

I recently read on this forum that a few members are running fairly large templates, using one instrument per instance. I'm in the process of trying this out myself (200 tracks) and I'll see how it goes. The thing that's appealing to me is that I will have full control over each instrument, which is very handy when applying effects or mixing inside Logic.


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## gsilbers (Aug 3, 2017)

whinecellar said:


> 63 at the moment, if I remember right... almost all of which are 16 channels/parts/instruments each.



Thats the way i like it but i found that too many instances of VEP would tax my cpu in logic. 
The only difference i see from your setup is that you use 4 slave pcs and i 1 pc but not sure if that would be it. 
Migfht also be my macpro is a bit older. even though i did the cpu upgrade. 

Did you do different trials and figure out a way to minimize cpu issues or you just added 63 instances of 16 ch each and it went all nice?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 3, 2017)

Could this be God's way of telling you that you have too many notes?


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## whinecellar (Aug 3, 2017)

gsilbers said:


> Thats the way i like it but i found that too many instances of VEP would tax my cpu in logic.
> The only difference i see from your setup is that you use 4 slave pcs and i 1 pc but not sure if that would be it.
> Migfht also be my macpro is a bit older. even though i did the cpu upgrade.
> 
> Did you do different trials and figure out a way to minimize cpu issues or you just added 63 instances of 16 ch each and it went all nice?



I basically rebuilt my whole template from scratch last year when I moved to Logic X - so it was a clean slate starting with all those VE pro instances. CPU usage is actually really low for me, especially considering how many instances I've got going


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## A.G (Aug 3, 2017)

whinecellar said:


> 63 at the moment, if I remember right... almost all of which are 16 channels/parts/instruments each.



This is! The Logic Multi-Timbral Instruments (16 Parts) allow you to eliminate the Logic 256 Instruments limitation and create large Logic Orchestral templates. The other optimization is the MIDI FX initialization.
We at Audio Grocery made a lots of tests and found out that Logic MIDI FX plugin initialization for 256 Instrument tracks (if 256 Scripters are inserted) is much longer than 16 Scripters inserted into 16 Multi-Timbral Instruments (16*16=256). That's why we developed a Muti-Timbral Articulation Switcher mode (16 Parts) which saves lots of resources. Our upcoming Logic bidirectional (iPad Lemur & TouchOSC or other MIDI devices) Orchestral template comes with 1185 Instruments and works with any system as a charm.


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## gsilbers (Aug 3, 2017)

whinecellar said:


> I basically rebuilt my whole template from scratch last year when I moved to Logic X - so it was a clean slate starting with all those VE pro instances. CPU usage is actually really low for me, especially considering how many instances I've got going



pretty cool. ill have to try again and see where im having the issue. 

So you have each instance routed to an aux/buss for stems and do you have any fx inserted?


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## gsilbers (Aug 3, 2017)

A.G said:


> This is! The Logic Multi-Timbral Instruments (16 Parts) allow you to eliminate the Logic 256 Instruments limitation and create large Logic Orchestral templates. The other optimization is the MIDI FX initialization.
> We at Audio Grocery made a lots of tests and found out that Logic MIDI FX plugin initialization for 256 Instrument tracks (if 256 Scripters are inserted) is much longer than 16 Scripters inserted into 16 Multi-Timbral Instruments (16*16=256). That's why we developed a Muti-Timbral Articulation Switcher mode (16 Parts) which saves lots of resources. Our upcoming Logic bidirectional (iPad Lemur & TouchOSC or other MIDI devices) Orchestral template comes with 1185 Instruments and works with any system as a charm.



do you have a video you can embed in this thread to check it out?


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## garyhiebner (Aug 3, 2017)

whinecellar said:


> It may not be for everyone, but I'd ditch the whole aux concept altogether and keep it simple - there are several advantages to this. My template is almost 1100 tracks, almost all consisting of 16-channel multitimbral VE Pro instances addressing 4 slave machines. All of them are simple stereo instances - no aux outs whatsoever. Everything is pre-mixed directly in VE Pro, and if I want to process a region/track further, it takes mere seconds to bounce in place.
> 
> FWIW, I run all this on a 2014 MacBook Pro with just 16GB RAM; the slaves make it easily doable, and it hasn't even hiccuped once. Creating a bunch of auxes just creates needless complication, potential latency compensation/sync issues, CPU overhead, etc. Simplicity for the win, IMO.
> 
> Have fun!


Hi Jim,

You say you only use Stereo Instances in Logic. So how do you get to 1100 tracks within Logic if you don't mind me asking? So you don't use the multi-ports? Do you have all the tracks in VEPro, and then send stem mixes of like, lets say the strings sections back to Logic?

Logic and VEPro has been a bit of a mission with me, and would really like to hear your setup.

I went the single instance route linked to one instance in VEPro, but then couldnt do the mixing within VEPro. and also had many instances with many tabs in the VEPro UI.

Then I tried with Instruments with Auxes in Logi. That worked ok, but I couldn't freeze the aux tracks, plus it had more load on the system using Auxes like you said.

Keen to hear what you found worked best


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## A.G (Aug 3, 2017)

gsilbers said:


> do you have a video you can embed in this thread to check it out?


It is not a good idea to publish any company Videos in this topic.
My previous post is absolutely private and is related to the Logic technical possibilities.
Here is a simple snapshot of the new AG Bidirectional (1184 Instruments) Orchestral template.







1. There are 160 Logic Instrument tracks organized into track folder stacks (labeled as Mono 1-16; Mono 17-32 etc).
The Mono-Timbral Instrument tracks are single Instrument tracks (Ch.All). They are designed for Instruments which offer a single Articulation patch per MIDI Part (LASS, EW Play etc).
2. The track folder stacks labeled as "A Multi, B Multi, C Multi, D Multi" offer 32 Instruments per stack folder (2*16 Multies).

BTW. Those who own VEPro do not need Logic Aux channels. You can insert the Instruments as VST (not AU) in VEP, and create Aux Channels inside VEP and mix all Instruments + FX there.


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## garyhiebner (Aug 3, 2017)

A.G said:


> It is not a good idea to publish any company Videos in this topic.
> My previous post is absolutely private and is related to the Logic technical possibilities.
> Here is a simple snapshot of the new AG Bidirectional (1184 Instruments) Orchestral template.
> 
> ...



So AG,

This is using MIDI Scripter plugins with Single Instruments in Logic with your Scripter application? So no multi-port layers. That is interesting!


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## IFM (Aug 3, 2017)

I never even come close. The best way is to put all articulations in one instance but on different midi channels. I haven't gotten past 100 tracks this way.


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## whinecellar (Aug 4, 2017)

gsilbers said:


> pretty cool. ill have to try again and see where im having the issue.
> 
> So you have each instance routed to an aux/buss for stems and do you have any fx inserted?



No, I have a different method for printing stems, so everything's just routed to the stereo bus. I do have about 8 effects buses though, mostly different flavors of reverb - and many tracks get sent to those in various combinations. But otherwise, my template is very simple despite being ~1100 tracks!


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## whinecellar (Aug 4, 2017)

garyhiebner said:


> Hi Jim,
> 
> You say you only use Stereo Instances in Logic. So how do you get to 1100 tracks within Logic if you don't mind me asking? So you don't use the multi-ports? Do you have all the tracks in VEPro, and then send stem mixes of like, lets say the strings sections back to Logic?



Yes, a bunch of stereo instances of VE Pro - I never use multiple outputs of any plugin. I do, however, use multitimbral instances - 16 channels each. So, 63 instances x 16 channels each = 1008 tracks/instruments. The rest of my template consists of custom EXS instruments, and then whatever cue-specific VIs I need (Omnisphere, Zebra, etc.)

I put a lot of thought into allocating everything, so a 16-channel instance will always be from the same library, so all processing for that instance will be consistent. LASS violins, for example, will all get the same EQ and reverb. Also, when I built my template, I took the time to pre-mix and match libraries within VE Pro (level, pan, placement, reverb) so everything sounds like it's in the right place *in the same space.* LASS, Albion and Symphobia, for example, all end up sounding like the same orchestra in the same room. That's a big key to not needing to deal with multiple outs per plugin, and being able to keep things simple in Logic. It makes everything more efficient.



garyhiebner said:


> I went the single instance route linked to one instance in VEPro, but then couldnt do the mixing within VEPro. and also had many instances with many tabs in the VEPro UI.



Exactly why I don't do the single instrument per instance thing; it would simply be unmanageable with a template like mine. Imagine 1000 single instances of VE Pro running?!? I can see that approach working for small templates, but beyond a few dozen tracks, I would think it becomes a pain to manage.

For me, the simple approach of 16-channel multis (stereo only, with no multiple outs) does the job really well, especially when you put some thought into it. It's worked well for me, anyway!


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## Nuboy (Aug 4, 2017)

Thanks' so much guys for the invaluable info. I'm ditching my old template (which is breaking my heart because of the time I spent on it!) and going down the simplified route you've advised. Thanks again.


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## gjelul (Aug 4, 2017)

All this is great info!

I am still puzzled though how can, for example, Volume and/or Pan, be controlled independently on patches loaded in Multis in LPX? This has been one of those things that LPX does not do intuitevly for me. 

Anyone has any simple solutions to this?

Thanks!


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## whinecellar (Aug 4, 2017)

gjelul said:


> All this is great info!
> 
> I am still puzzled though how can, for example, Volume and/or Pan, be controlled independently on patches loaded in Multis in LPX? This has been one of those things that LPX does not do intuitevly for me.
> 
> ...



Yes. There's a preference in song settings that lets you use CC7/10 to control the channel strip *or* the sub-channels of a multi. But again, if you take the time to pre-mix your template in VE Pro (assuming your template consists of orchestral instruments), it should be set and forget. If you want to process something further, a simple "bounce in place" takes seconds and turns that track to audio. Easy


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## mc_deli (Aug 4, 2017)

gjelul said:


> All this is great info!
> 
> I am still puzzled though how can, for example, Volume and/or Pan, be controlled independently on patches loaded in Multis in LPX? This has been one of those things that LPX does not do intuitevly for me.
> 
> ...


http://vi-control.net/community/threads/primer-on-ve-pro-in-logic-pro-x.49661/ is an interesting thread on this... there are more...


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## garyhiebner (Aug 4, 2017)

whinecellar said:


> Yes, a bunch of stereo instances of VE Pro - I never use multiple outputs of any plugin. I do, however, use multitimbral instances - 16 channels each. So, 63 instances x 16 channels each = 1008 tracks/instruments. The rest of my template consists of custom EXS instruments, and then whatever cue-specific VIs I need (Omnisphere, Zebra, etc.)
> 
> I put a lot of thought into allocating everything, so a 16-channel instance will always be from the same library, so all processing for that instance will be consistent. LASS violins, for example, will all get the same EQ and reverb. Also, when I built my template, I took the time to pre-mix and match libraries within VE Pro (level, pan, placement, reverb) so everything sounds like it's in the right place *in the same space.* LASS, Albion and Symphobia, for example, all end up sounding like the same orchestra in the same room. That's a big key to not needing to deal with multiple outs per plugin, and being able to keep things simple in Logic. It makes everything more efficient.
> 
> ...



Awesome, thanks for the explanation. And how many instances do you have in VEPro? And do you break them down into different developers, or different sections? Like Strings, Winds, etc..


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## whinecellar (Aug 4, 2017)

garyhiebner said:


> Awesome, thanks for the explanation. And how many instances do you have in VEPro? And do you break them down into different developers, or different sections? Like Strings, Winds, etc..



Depends on the machine. My big PC slave usually runs (28) 16-channel instances of either Kontakt or Play - so that's 448 instruments just on that machine. That machine runs all my really demanding stuff (Hollywood strings, brass, winds, all of LASS, CineBrass, CineWinds, etc.) and uses about 40 GB RAM out of 64.

And yes, as I mentioned above, for mixing purposes I break things down by library; that way I can EQ & verb LASS strings to put them in the same space as HW Strings, Soaring Strings, CSS, etc. - 16 channels at a time since they all share their respective multi with other instruments from the same library.

Jim


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## Nuboy (Aug 6, 2017)

Thanks for the Logic template gsilbers. But how do I assign these channels to an instance on Kontakt ( via VePro)?

On an instrument track there is a Instrument plug-in box to assign an instrument to that track, where VePro/Kontakt can be selected. (This is the way I've always worked). But on the VE Pro main and Midi ports tracks there is no option to assign to an instrument.

I realise this question shows my relative lack of knowledge/experience of integrating these pieces of software. Is there a resource you could signpost where I can gen-up on Logic/VE Pro integration. I realise you guys have better things to do than spoon-feed a newcomer.


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## gsilbers (Aug 6, 2017)

Nuboy said:


> Thanks for the Logic template gsilbers. But how do I assign these channels to an instance on Kontakt ( via VePro)?
> 
> On an instrument track there is a Instrument plug-in box to assign an instrument to that track, where VePro/Kontakt can be selected. (This is the way I've always worked). But on the VE Pro main and Midi ports tracks there is no option to assign to an instrument.
> 
> I realise this question shows my relative lack of knowledge/experience of integrating these pieces of software. Is there a resource you could signpost where I can gen-up on Logic/VE Pro integration. I realise you guys have better things to do than spoon-feed a newcomer.



its already set for you on that multi port template. 
you will see the names of the tracks like "VE Pro 1 MIDI Port 14_1" so in the VEP host you find the same port (port 14, midi channel 1 and load the sample instrument there in VEP/ kontakt. 

In other words, the assignment is done in the VEP application and you have match to what the logic template says.. 

does that make sensE? 

if you load the VEP plugin in logic and connect it to VEP pro app you then go the VEP app, open kotant and load a string patch in channel one. then in VEP app select that its midi port 1 and midi channel 1 and then go to logic and play midi on
the track port1 channel 1.


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## Ashermusic (Aug 6, 2017)

I recommend avoiding the VSL Multiport template.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Aug 6, 2017)

From my experience, the Multiport Template is going to cause you headaches.


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## ChristianM (Aug 8, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> I recommend avoiding the VSL Multiport template.


With Logic 10.3.2 ?


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## mc_deli (Aug 8, 2017)

ChristianM said:


> With Logic 10.3.2 ?


If you search here and on the VSL forum you will find some detailed threads starring gurus like Asher, Schwartz, AG and others that explain why the VSL multiport template is trouble with a rare few exceptions. If I could neatly summarise it for you I would


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## ChristianM (Aug 8, 2017)

I know this problems, but it seems ok with the last version of Logic Pro, no ?


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## forjam (Aug 26, 2017)

Interesting thread. My template is 700+ tracks in Cubase 9. Every track is output in VEP and routed to its own track in Cubase. Each track in Cubase is labeled and sent to group busses per each library and orch section. Each group has it's own reverb that will be recorded to it's own stem for delivery. My main machine is a 16 core PC with 2-12 core Mac Pros as satellites. It all runs at less than 50% CPU. All of this is way quicker than loading as I go and easier to export surround stems from my surround groups to send to the stage. I tried setting up a similar template in Pro Tools HD 12 but PT is definitely not designed to handle such a large template. Of course you can output only stereo or surround auxes from each VEP instance, but this definitely affects the ability to mix properly.I also stopped using Logic for the same reason. I have used Logic since it was first released on PC. Somewhere along the road it became difficult to work this way IMHO. The workarounds necessary in Logic for larger cues is prohibitive for some. The game is to mitigate the tedium of all this and just compose music.


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Aug 26, 2017)

Wolfie2112 said:


> From my experience, the Multiport Template is going to cause you headaches.


+ 1 on that


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Aug 26, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> I recommend avoiding the VSL Multiport template.


agreed


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## ptram (Sep 1, 2019)

I’m reopening this discussion, because I’ve the same issue as the original poster. How to manage a big template based on Logic and VEPRO?

If I understand correctly, the Aux system is taxing the CPU. If you don't need multiple outputs, it shouldn't make sense, even if it's the solution suggested in VEPRO's manual.

However, the multiple tracks solution from the creation of a multitimbral instrument has the disadvantage of not allowing separate volume, pan, solo and mute control of the individual sounds. Yes, you can Solo Lock the regions, and replace Mute with Track On/Off, but I’m not convinced they are very comfortable solutions.

So, neither of these solutions seem to work for everything. I'm more likely to use the non-Aux solution, but I really dislike the inelegant constraints and workaraounds it forces one to do.

The multi-channel MIDI instrument is still tempting, and suggested in Logic's manual, but I feel it is something from a different era, and not really supported. At the same time, the idea of soloing or muting MIDI data instead of audio seems the right one.

Paolo


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## Kent (Sep 1, 2019)

ptram said:


> The multi-channel MIDI instrument is still tempting, and suggested in Logic's manual, but I feel it is something from a different era, and not really supported. At the same time, the idea of soloing or muting MIDI data instead of audio seems the right one.



The benefit of this method is that you can use custom macros in the Environment to control the instruments however you want to. In conjunction with Articulation Sets, it's a very powerful and individualize-able setup.


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## ptram (Sep 1, 2019)

Another thought: can the Auxes be used just as additional software instrument tracks, only sending MIDI data to their software instrument, but without receiving back any audio data?

I mean, I wonder if we can have this scenario:

1) a track corresponding to an Aux channel is sending MIDI messages to, say, channel 2 of the software instrument. The software instrument is multitimbral and multi-output, but you only use stereo out.

2) the instrument in VEPRO corresponding to MIDI channel 2 receives the MIDI data, and sends an audio signal to the standard Stereo Out. This is mixed with the signal of the instrument on MIDI channel 1, and all the other instruments of the same VEPRO instance.

3) the audio signal is send back from VEPRO's master bus to Logic's Stereo Out output channel.

4) you can separately control solo, mute, volume and pan for all the MIDI data in the track corresponding to the Aux channel.

What you probably can't do is checking the audio signal level in the Aux channel. Mixing will happen in VEPRO, and Logic's mixer will only be a routing patchbay.

Would it work?

Paolo

EDIT: In any case, multiple-output instruments don't support freeze. And this is a serious limitation.


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 1, 2019)

Yes I think that works, except for step 4. In that case the solo, mute and volume of the aux tracks will be controlling the AUX channels that you aren't even using. I don't see the point of working that way.

Bottom line is that there is no easy way around the fact that mute/solo/volume on the track header does not effect the AUX channels of a multi-timbral instrument and does not effect the midi either. I wish Apple would change that mode of operation so that they effect the midi instead, but they haven't by now oh well. I usually hide them from my track headers and just use the VEPro window to mute/solo and adjust levels.

Also you should know that AU3 does not work with the Aux track trick like works with AU2 plugins in 16 part multi timbral mode.

Using environment midi objects can work but there are pros and cons with that approach as well. 

I'm very happy with using AU3 in multi-timbral mode right now, I just hide mute/solo/volume from the track header and get used to working a different way.


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## A.G (Sep 1, 2019)

It seems that the old school Environment MULTI Instrument object is still the best.

Pros:
• You can Solo, Mute, Volume & Pan the Multi - Timbral tracks without any locking.
• The Environment MULTI works well with the Logic native Articulation Sets system.
• The Environment MULTI can send MIDI data to Software Channels and External hardware devices simultaneously or via a custom Environment setup.
• You can patch/cable a custom Environment setup (a collection of objects) between the MULTI object and a single or multiple Logic Channel strip(s) to achieve a special MIDI processing.
• The Environment MULTI has extra bank functions which can bang custom MIDI data, display custom names etc.
• You can use Environment MULTIs to save Environment memory (1:16) in case you plan to build a large AU3 VEP/Logic template (Note: it is not displayed in the core UI Monitors).

Cons:
• You cannot render in place.
• The Environment MULTI cannot host MIDI FX plugins directly.


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## ptram (Sep 1, 2019)

I'm struggling with programming the Multi-Instrument. But the first thing I could notice is that there is a Solo button on the corresponding tracks – but it doesn't react to the 'S' shortcut (that is instead working in the software instrument and audio tracks!)

And the 'S' button is missing from the corresponding mixer channel.

I'm shocked by this total lack of coherence.

The Instrument+Auxes seems, at the moment, the most coherent (all tracks seem to behave in the same way). At the same time, it seems this setup is taking the same CPU as the Instrument+Next Channel setup. Maybe Auxes are not taxing the CPU so much.

Paolo


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 1, 2019)

There is another con with the old school approach which is that the user will find themselves often having to go into the environment to manage those scaffoldings in there. The vast majority don't understand the environment and don't want to. So then they will try to make or obtain a large template with all the environment scaffolding in place and use that, but if anything goes wrong with it, they will probably not be able to troubleshoot it because the environment is not for the weak of heart in many cases. And if they want to add more tracks and channels they will not know how to do it. And the environment has bugs too. The environment is interesting and has its place, but there are pros and cons... 

I think most people today are better served to avoid overly complicated environment setups, ESPECIALLY, if they don't know what they are using inside there to be able to maintain and troubleshoot it.

Its pretty easy to make a simple environment setup wrapped around a single AU3 instrument channel, like this or some derivative:






However, wiring up the above to actual track headers starts to be kind of involved and complicated to explain for a lot of users that are more comfortable using the New Track menu commands to add tracks, etc. Also what do you do if you need to add more tracks, etc You'll have to dive into the environment. 

So @ptram if you want to try environment, you can use something like above and its basically creating 8 multi-instruments for each AU3 instrument channel (note how you see 8 channel strips that are all labeled *Inst1* and they all point to the same instrument channel object called *Inst1*, but each one of those internal channel strips has their *port* setting set to a different value from 1-8.

Then if you setup up to 127 tracks that are feeding those multi-instrument objects..you'll have 127 tracks...all feeding one AU3 instrument..and the mute/solo/volume buttons on your track headers will effect the MIDI of each track. Note it effects the MIDI...not any audio channels anywhere. Mute mutes the midi, the track fader adjusts CC7, etc.. 

Though if you are using Vepro, then you could also configure VePro I believe to respond to CC7 on each channel and control VePro's mixer with it, if you want. and mute and solo would actually work, but on the midi, not the audio..the midi itself would be muted from going to VePro when engaged, etc..

So that is the upside, you'd have proper mute and solo buttons on the track headers. You could optionally dabble with advanced environment transforms to handle your articulations, in which case the above schematic would begin to get more and more complicated. But you have to manage a bunch of environment objects..which is not for the weak of heart honestly...


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 1, 2019)

ptram said:


> I'm struggling with programming the Multi-Instrument. But the first thing I could notice is that there is a Solo button on the corresponding tracks – but it doesn't react to the 'S' shortcut (that is instead working in the software instrument and audio tracks!)
> 
> And the 'S' button is missing from the corresponding mixer channel.
> 
> I'm shocked by this total lack of coherence.



The confusion only begins there.



> The Instrument+Auxes seems, at the moment, the most coherent (all tracks seem to behave in the same way). At the same time, it seems this setup is taking the same CPU as the Instrument+Next Channel setup. Maybe Auxes are not taxing the CPU so much.



Note that the "Aux track trick", an undocumented feature in LogicPro, also does not support AU3 multi-port instruments at this point in time.

Also note that when you use that AUX track trick, your tracks have the track-delay feature disabled. 

I can't remember how those tracks respond to bounce in place requests...

Apple has moved beyond the environment, they attempted to provide a GUI where the user can use menu commands and LogicPro attempts to manage the underlying environment objects for you. Their documentation about the environment is sparse because they are pretty much hoping that most of us won't go in there.

But their currently supported and documented approach for handling multi-timbral instruments is to set them up the same way they are setup when you use the New Tracks wizard... Unfortunately that ends up with all the Mute/solo/volume controls on all the tracks involved connected to the overall instrument, not the channels within the instrument. And perhaps rightly so, there is no easy work around honestly. If the track header simply didn't have those controls you probably wouldn't be questioning it.

I personally think its easier to just keep my VePro window open and I adjust the mix of my sections, and mute/solo channels inside there rather then in LogicPro.

What can be helpful in LogicPro, is if you are using multiple AUX channels to return the audio back to logicPro, then you could setup as many as 25 stereo returns per VEP instance...and then you can easily solo/mute those channels in the LogicPro mixer (not the track headers).


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## ptram (Sep 2, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> What can be helpful in LogicPro, is if you are using multiple AUX channels to return the audio back to logicPro, then you could setup as many as 25 stereo returns per VEP instance...and then you can easily solo/mute those channels in the LogicPro mixer (not the track headers).


I might be doing something wrong, but it seems I can solo or mute the tracks corresponding to the returning Aux in the Arrange. They seem to behave, in this, like any other software instrument track.

That is what I’m looking for, since having all in the Arrange, and quick, is the core of what I like in Logic: speed, control by keyswitches, coherence.

Paolo


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 2, 2019)

That only works if you are using the undocumented aux track trick, which does not work with the AU3 plugin


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## ptram (Sep 4, 2019)

Maybe I'll sidetrack this discussion, but it might be a due consideration when trying to use many tracks in Logic.

I'm starting to think that, after the recent increase in track count, it is better to let Logic directly manage the instruments. If you don't have a slave computer, this might be a faster and more efficient option.

Logic and VEPRO can talk only with complex efforts. Routing MIDI and audio data can be done, but requires several tricks and workarounds.

At the same time, loading sounds from SSD is very fast. There are no longer very long waiting times when loading a project, in particular if you don't load all the sounds from a template, but only the ones you are actually using.

Logic has some shortcuts to make dealing with sounds and ensembles fast. Track patches and presets lets you automatically configure individual mixer channels. You can save your own set of patches. Specialized templates can be added to the startup chooser.

In my personal case, I think this might be the better way of working. I've been tempted by VEPRO, since I will have to use it with Dorico, but there is no need to also use it with Logic. In any case, exchanging data between Logic and Dorico will require a complete rebuild of the project.

Paolo


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 4, 2019)

I don’t disagree but there are advantages to using vepro still. You can setup a reusable instrument setup and use across many projects, for example.


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## Ashermusic (Sep 4, 2019)

ptram said:


> Maybe I'll sidetrack this discussion, but it might be a due consideration when trying to use many tracks in Logic.
> 
> I'm starting to think that, after the recent increase in track count, it is better to let Logic directly manage the instruments. If you don't have a slave computer, this might be a faster and more efficient option.
> 
> ...



I simply cannot agree.


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## ptram (Sep 5, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> I don’t disagree but there are advantages to using vepro still. You can setup a reusable instrument setup and use across many projects, for example.


The original raison d'être of VEPRO was exactly that of reusing the same instrument setup across many projects. It was as an external sound expander – something that could be even in hardware, when using a slave computer.

However, if you only use a single DAW, maybe this is an additional layer or complexity that can be avoided. Logic has a good management of templates (you can choose them at startup). Channel strip patches, or track stack patches, allow for immediate configuration of individual instruments or sections, including instrument, routing and effects. You can have templates at full orchestra level, or at more detailed level.

SSD loading speed is fast. Judging from the tests on my orchestral scores arranged with VSL sounds, it is nearly immediate. Individual articulations are loaded when needed. I don't see significant delay needed for loading sounds.

Memory consumption may be an issue. With VSL's VIPRO I can ask to only load the really used articulations. I can't do something similar (as far as I can understand) in Kontakt, UVI Workstation or Spitfire's own player. If I'm not wrong, purging memory in VEPRO is easier than in Logic.

As for the use of the same set of sounds in different programs, my personal use is in Logic and Dorico. They are so different, that I would have to use separate sets in any case.

Then, having to instantiate a huge, full template when I only need some sounds in my score seems a waste to me. Working with smaller sections/frames seem a more agile solution.

This, for my needs. I can understand it can be different for people using more DAWs, or relying on a fix configuration for coherence in the studio.

Paolo


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## ptram (Sep 5, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> That only works if you are using the undocumented aux track trick, which does not work with the AU3 plugin


I can't understand what I'm doing wrong (or right?). By adding Aux channels to a multi-output Instrument (instantiated in VEPRO as AU3 plugin), I can use both the main Instrument track and the Aux tracks as I would do with ordinary Software Instrument tracks. Maybe I can't understand the actual problem, and can't find it.

May I ask you to check these short videos? The first one shows how I can use Instrument- and Aux-related tracks with Solo and Mute, as in any ordinary track:

Logic-VEPRO Aux

The second one shows the time needed to open a multi-instance VEPRO project, with just a couple instruments instantiated (with no samples loaded). On my system, this is quiete a long time (while Logic would be nearly immediate). Am I doing something wrong?

VEPRO Loading

Paolo


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## nas (Sep 5, 2019)

With respect to LPX 10.4.6 and VEP 7, I think they are a match made in heaven. The ability to turn off instances in VEP 7 and automate this as well as the newer function in LPX to "only load plugins needed for project playback" make it much easier and tons more effiecient to manage larger templates. Load and Save times are much faster now and don't feel so cumbersome. I have even started running VEP 7 fully coupled to LPX and I don't see the need for decoupling - even with large templates - and the way VEP 7 compresses data while saving makes the project footprint much smaller.

Plus with the use of multitimbral instruments or Kontakt multi instruments within VEP 7 instances all controlled by a good articulation switcher (I used AG Arts. Pro switcher) this really cuts down on the need for so many sequencer tracks in LPX and makes workflow much more streamlined and intuitive for me.


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 5, 2019)

ptram said:


> The original raison d'être of VEPRO was exactly that of reusing the same instrument setup across many projects. It was as an external sound expander – something that could be even in hardware, when using a slave computer.
> 
> However, if you only use a single DAW, maybe this is an additional layer or complexity that can be avoided. Logic has a good management of templates (you can choose them at startup). Channel strip patches, or track stack patches, allow for immediate configuration of individual instruments or sections, including instrument, routing and effects. You can have templates at full orchestra level, or at more detailed level.
> 
> ...



Its not only about using different DAW's, its about having a big orchestra loaded, Including samples...and then being able to switch from one cue to another (different project files in the DAW) easily and quickly, with a consistent orchestra loaded at all times. Its like having Digital Performer's V-Rack feature, but in LogicPro, or Cubase. This is a significant advantage, especially if you are working with very large orchestral templates with thousands of articulations loaded up and ready at all times. You don't want to have to reload them into logicpro every time you move to a new cue to work on. Plus often times it will be good to have a consistent mix across cues...by doing the mixing in VEP instead of LPX.


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 5, 2019)

ptram said:


> I can't understand what I'm doing wrong (or right?). By adding Aux channels to a multi-output Instrument (instantiated in VEPRO as AU3 plugin), I can use both the main Instrument track and the Aux tracks as I would do with ordinary Software Instrument tracks. Maybe I can't understand the actual problem, and can't find it.
> 
> May I ask you to check these short videos? The first one shows how I can use Instrument- and Aux-related tracks with Solo and Mute, as in any ordinary track:
> 
> ...



You cannot use port 2-8 with the AUX track trick. That only works for port one, channels 1-16. I agree it seems very nice that way and its unfortunate Apple did not adopt that as the "normal" way to handle Multi-timbral, but they didn't, they use a different multi-timbral approach that doesn't work that way, so basically AU3 is using the Apple way, not the secret Aux track trick. It may work for the first 16 channels, like AU2, but after that you won't have any way to assign port to the tracks and access ports 2-8. 

also when you use the aux track trick, note that the track delay parameter is disabled, which may or may not matter to you.


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## ptram (Sep 6, 2019)

nas said:


> With respect to LPX 10.4.6 and VEP 7, I think they are a match made in heaven. The ability to turn off instances in VEP 7 and automate this as well as the newer function in LPX to "only load plugins needed for project playback" make it much easier and tons more effiecient to manage larger templates.


This is very interesting. So, you can save a VEPRO project with all the channels turned off, and let the Logic project turn on only the needed ones, by inserting a simple automation event at the beginning of the sequence.

Channel/instance on/off automation in VEPRO, and dynamic plugin loading in Logic: do they work together, or are alternative?

Paolo

EDIT: Uhm, it couldn't be without problems. Automating channel disable in VEPRO requires assigning an automation parameter for each channel. You can't simply disable/enable the channel connected to a track in Logic.


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## rlw (Dec 11, 2019)

I have created a couple of AU3 Multi instruments with VEPro and I was trying to create a patch for a instrument with multiple ports but have been unsuccessful in saving a patch that I can recall. One AU3 instrument had about 35 stereo Aux with 6 Ports and a second one was smaller with 10 AUX tracks coming back from VePro. Can complex AU3 instruments be saved as a Patch ?


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