# Composing a game soundtrack before art is done.



## Tice (Jun 18, 2018)

I have another question to build up my frame of reference:

When working on a game's soundtrack, have you ever gotten involved before any of the art has been done? Even the concept art. And has this affected how many re-writes you had to do?
I understand that for movies it's getting to be a little more common to get the composer involved before production really got underway, but how often does it happen in games?

Thanks for your answers!


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## MatFluor (Jun 18, 2018)

Depends where you look.

I'm currently in 2 game projects, one which is a Visual Novel, one which is a MOBA.

The Visual Novel has a script done and mainly background images to be done. Since there is not much "action" on screen, that's no problem, since the script and discussion with the lead developer gives me a good picture to make the music.

With the MOBA - it is in early stages. Some Concept art is made. I am a guy who needs some visual cues, so essentially I'm just hanging around, try to be a fun guy and wait until there is something to do for me.



Tice said:


> but how often does it happen in games?


Especially young indie developers try to assemble the whole team very early - before even a GDD exists. I think it comes together with the non-paying positions (revenue share mostly - which means you get a cut of the profits). So, it doesn't cost you a dime to hire a full team who works for a year on a product.
With these project (apart from not accepting them anymore), I also just waited until there was something to write music for. Apart from a main theme, which is not tied to player input, nothing gets done until I get what I need to work.



Tice said:


> And has this affected how many re-writes you had to do?



Yes - rewrites. That's why I wait with writing until I have something in my hands - I don't want to spend endless hours to create something on a shaky foundation. Happened once, then never again.
"Make a theme for the character, she's quirky, nature-loving...". Done that - you know, Woodwinds, harps...
"Doesn't fit right - maybe something more tribal and aggressive, she's lost her family and wants revenge"...ok - get some Percussion out and make it darker.
"Eh - not quite, mabye here a 5 reference tracks to help". Needless to say that these reference tracks didn't have anything in common apart from being on YouTube.

That's when I was a little unfriendly to the dev. Then it got immediately better and he realized what he had dond. And later he came to me with a CLEAR vision and CLEAR demands on how and what he wants. I don't want to sit down, make 4 completely different tracks, which suited to the brief given for each only to be rejected because the brief has changed - because it's a work in progress. I'd rather help with the character creation process and give my input there and THEN make music for it - then I know detailed what the character is all about.


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## Tice (Jun 18, 2018)

I definitely recognise what you wrote about re-writes, and then some! I have come to accept it for this project. There have been tons of re-writes. Usually the stuff that didn't make it still winds up being useful elsewhere in the game, given heavy modifications. But there's also a lot of leftovers. Much time gets sunk into making a draft since it has to pretty much sound like final product. Most of what I've done so far was done before any of the art was done, just based on descriptions, which were often very conflicting. Plus there seem to be two captains on this ship, rather than one.


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## MatFluor (Jun 18, 2018)

Tice said:


> Much time gets sunk into making a draft since it has to pretty much sound like final product.


Yes - and given the amount of gold coins you receive - I suspect it's a lot of things you don't get paid 

Not to be the money-whore - but a good sketch needs time. Revision, especially when it's essentially a new track where you only can reuse the main melody takes time. I'd rather talk 2 hours in a Skype meeting about one single level of a game but have a solid action plan at hand, rather than spending a week on 4 rewrites.

For most commissions, I hit 95% of the time with the draft - which then just needs some better mixing and done. If I don't hit, I normally take it as a failure from MY side - as in "I didn't research well enough" or "I didn't get all information there was to make it right the first time".

Yes, it's good for the craft to compose a lot - but I don't like to put myself through cue revisions that are unnecessary if I do my job right the first time


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## Tice (Jun 18, 2018)

On the plus side, all this writing is definitely making me a better composer :D


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## Henu (Jun 18, 2018)

Tice said:


> When working on a game's soundtrack, have you ever gotten involved before any of the art has been done? Even the concept art



Been there, done that...too many times. What I usually do is to sketch down themes and ideas based on my imagination (because usually that's the driving force for me anyway) as much as I can effortlessly do when being "In the zone", and leave them be until further instructions. Absolutely no use to finish them yet.


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## Henu (Jun 18, 2018)

MatFluor said:


> For most commissions, I hit 95% of the time with the draft - which then just needs some better mixing and done. If I don't hit, I normally take it as a failure from MY side - as in "I didn't research well enough" or "I didn't get all information there was to make it right the first time".



THIS times x 100000. If you've done your homework, the draft should already be "quite there" already, given that the instructions have been useful enough. Sometimes it happens that it's completely different what they wanted, but usually it's about lack of communication than anything else. Shit happens, save that version to your personal "worthy ideas to do later" pool and get the ball rolling on the next one! 

There's another thing you can try out to speed up the feedback process up, but it's risky and you preferably dont' want to use it if you are trying to _get_ a gig instead of already _working_ on it: Not wasting your time on polishing your drafts.

For what it comes to those drafts, mine are usually rather shitty. In fact, I usually refer them as "shit demos". They contain timing and sometimes even minor playing mistakes, awkward quasi-orchestration, no real instruments and are usually pretty much non-mixed with only some small mastering adjustments. It's 80% of pure inspiration and only 20% of conscious tweaking on top of that, usually finished within less than an hour. It's also something I tell to the receiving end right away- it's extremely important that they know that these are VERY ROUGH SKETCHES. I usually tell them that the first files I send are basically equivalent of pencil sketches of an graphics artist: to give them only an idea what's building up in my head.

The thing we gain with this is the very fast iteration process between me and the designer/producer to make sure we're in the right track with the bigger picture (overall feeling, melodies, tempo, instrumentation, etc) to get the demos greenlit and prepare for the actual production work. Naturally, if you're working with someone you've worked with before or they know your reputation and your published work, it's much more easier than with trying to pitch a demo for...say, Sony Pictures. Maybe that's why I never pitch any demos to Sony Pictures? :D

PS: Something similar to @MatFluor also happened to me once: I did seven (!!!) versions of the main title music for a game until they finally provided me a reference which was thought- out with a _clear vision_. After that, the main title "shit demo" was done within the next two hours and approved the same day for production.


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## MatFluor (Jun 18, 2018)

Henu said:


> It's also something I tell to the receiving end right away- it's extremely important that they know that these are VERY ROUGH SKETCHES. I usually tell them that the first files I send are basically equivalent of pencil sketches of an graphics artist: to give them only an idea what's building up in my head.



I thought about that - but I never got the guts to try that - I think that works good with devs/directors who "trust you". I mean - I could whip out my sketching template and fire away...but man.
I try that in one of the fixed projects...but man..the guts


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## Tice (Jun 18, 2018)

I've done the 'very rough draft' thing on a few occations, but only once I already got the project, and with an employer whom I felt was able to hear what a demo can grow into. The biggest cause for re-writes I get is working off of only verbal discriptions and not having fully translated their lingo quite yet. I took a long time to figure out what an employer meant by 'ethereal', for instance.


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## Eugenic (Jan 15, 2019)

I wish I found this thread before. Probably I searched the wrong words ("frustration" being one of them). :D

I am having similar issues - I put a few questions (this one and other unrelated) in the Business section. Thanks for sharing your thought.

I am at my first game project and am incurring in all of the above. The issue I have with the whole "clear idea" thing is that perhaps the team has a pretty clear idea, but it is conveyed in a way that I cannot understand. I don't mean barrier language, more like emotional. I too had to listen to a bunch of reference material. What I hear (orchestration, chords, counterpoint, etc.) is not what they hear, the emotion implied. A programmer friend of mine called this "lack of understanding", in a pretty good analogy, the "building-the-interface" phase between me and my contractor... this being said, I am at v10 and counting, on a particular cue... at least it's not all pro-bono (money-whore no. 2 here) but I stop the clock if I see too many failed attempts.

Also - not everyone can "visualise" early sketches. He cannot see where, potentially, a sketch can go. So it's the same problem reversed for me: I need to deliver a pretty much awesome sketch everytime. Otherwise it is me that risks "not having a clear idea"...

Thank you @Tice, @MatFluor, @Henu for the thread and insights!


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## Tice (Jan 15, 2019)

Good to know this thread has been useful. It's interesting to read it all again knowing how things have developed for me in the meantime. My understanding of their lingo has gotten a lot better, and I got better at figuring out what parts of a reference track are relevant to them. Asking for exact time-stamps on a reference track they show me and letting them choose their words to describe that particular moment gives me a 'Rosetta stone' of sorts. Also asking things like 'what instrument are you paying attention to there?' is very useful. Having worked with the same people over nearly 2 years now has made a ton of difference. I still get times where it takes 5 drafts to hit the mark, but the times where I get it right the first time are more frequent now. Personally I find it very important to foster good long term relationships with people and gain a reputation for doing whatever it takes to get it just right, so I'm embracing the re-writes. It has to be compatible with your business model as a composer though.


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## Eugenic (Jan 15, 2019)

@Tice: thank you for the update. Not all hope is lost, for me too. I see @MatFluor replied on another thread I had going on.
Seems pretty much a common issue at the beginning. You are also validating my theory of "why is easier fostering long-term relationships", which is: you just learnt how to read a certain client's mind, and you don't want to repeat the experience from scratch everytime.


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## ionian (Feb 21, 2019)

Happens even with the bigger houses. I was part of a game from TDK back in the late 90s and the programmers hadn't even started working with the artists yet and I was already hired to score it. 

They pretty much gave me what the writer gave them - the story and the list of characters and how they all relate to each other. Pretty much like a movie script. And after reading that and using my imagination to put it all together in my head the way I thought it would be, I start writing motifs, cues, even minor ideas. Scoring as much as possible. I sent everything to the programmers who were thrilled because sometimes it's a symbiotic process mixed with the chicken or the egg question. The music fuels the art which fuels the music. It's like the artists involved want some music to inspire them while I want some art to inspire me and then it's like who's gonna blink first? 

In one instance, an artist had to come up with concepts for the backgrounds in a certain level. So he reached out to me and asked if I had any music yet that fit the vibe of that level. So we discussed briefly and came to a consensus of what the script for the game was hinting at and once we agreed I told him to give me a few hours. I wrote something and recorded it that I felt captured that vibe. It was only about a minute long, but I wrote it so that the end led back to the beginning so it could be looped continuously and sent it to him. 

He got back to me a few days later telling me how it helped him immensely and that he had it on repeat for three straight days and was able to sketch all the concepts for the characters and the levels just by listening to the music nonstop. The funny thing? That particular piece I scored to help him never even ended up being used - the theme or anything else in it! But it served its purpose to help inspire him. 

I don't know if the AAA houses are like that anymore though - there's so much money involved that I'm sure it's like movies now and there's no real chances taken. I kind of got away from the video game scene in the early 2000s as I could see it was already becoming a sh!tshow and was going to end up the mess it is now. Politics were starting to become a big thing and I have no tolerance for the corporate politics game. The final straw was that Acclaim had reached out to me and wanted to hire me full time as a staff composer (do games houses even have those anymore?) and I was thisclose to accepting the job except I had to relocate to Texas from NYC to where all their composers were and all their music was recorded. And right before I went for it, Acclaim folded and went bankrupt and I was grateful I hadn't taken the gig because I'd be stranded in Texas with no job. So between the politics and how volatile the games market was becoming I moved on to better things. 

But sometimes it's like that - there's no artwork and sometimes it's being part of a team and taking the plunge and writing stuff to help inspire the artists when they eventually get on board. 

Of course of the director of the game has no idea what they really want and they're jerking your chain, then it's always best to move on.


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## Henu (Feb 22, 2019)

ionian said:


> do games houses even have those anymore?



Yes, they do.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Feb 22, 2019)

Henu said:


> Yes, they do.



But apart from some of the absolutely biggest names with several studios, and japanese companies, it's absolutely the exception, isn't it?
Mostly I see audio implementer teams and sound designers who buy in music from freelancers.


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## Tice (Feb 22, 2019)

@ionian I see the same thing as you said with the different disciplines inspiring each other. And as long as there's a captain on the ship with a clear sense of direction, the result usually feels very coherent across all the disciplines.


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## Henu (Feb 22, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> But apart from some of the absolutely biggest names with several studios, and japanese companies, it's absolutely the exception, isn't it?
> Mostly I see audio implementer teams and sound designers who buy in music from freelancers.



You are right- unfortunately it's not very common. Usually, it's sound designers and coders and the music is coming from an outsider. But when you do a lot of games, it is useful to keep someone in the house to do all those music-related things all the time.


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