# A minor to F minor modulation



## Ned Bouhalassa (Sep 4, 2008)

Hey gang,

I may be trying to put a square peg in a round hole, but do you have any fairly quick solutions to modulating from A min to F min? I figure I'll have make my way to E dim before reaching F in order to force the transition.


----------



## Dave Connor (Sep 4, 2008)

If you have A in the bass of the A minor (and perhaps avoid it in the upper part of the chord) then simply dropping the bass to Ab would be a very smooth way of doing it. C would be common to both chords and could stay put. Even the E could stay put giving the Maj 7 of the F minor if you want that kind of color. Or as you say you could prepare the modulation depending on the context, your aims and intentions.


----------



## Frederick Russ (Sep 4, 2008)

Lots of ways. One is to use ostinatos:


----------



## synergy543 (Sep 5, 2008)

I think he's asking how do you modulate from A minor to F minor "key". Ain't no faster way... 

Amin (A, C, E)
C7 (G, Bb, C, E) - two common tones and V chord of F leads to....
Fmin (F, Ab, C, F)


----------



## david robinson (Sep 5, 2008)

hi ned,
this is the old "haunted house" mod.
actually working on a piece now that uses Dm > Bbm, in place of a usual Im > V7.
in fact the Bbmin triad can be consider and extension of sorts of A7alt (V7 of Dm).
it suggests a Bb mel min asc scale.
anyway, it's just part of a root cycle of Major 3rds: Dm>Bbm>Gbm.
another one is, of course, built on minor 3rds: Dm>Bm>Abm>Fm.
these are movie music cliches.

DR9.


----------



## artsoundz (Sep 5, 2008)

synergy543 @ Fri Sep 05 said:


> I think he's asking how do you modulate from A minor to F minor "key". Ain't no faster way...
> 
> CMaj7 (G, Bb, C, E) - two common tones and V chord of F leads to....
> 
> ...


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Sep 5, 2008)

Thanks for all the amazing advice! I'm trying to smoothly go from one of my cues in one key (A min) to another (F min). I think I'll go with Dave C. or Fred's ideas.

You guys are terrific. Beers for all! o-[][]-o :wink:


----------



## Rob (Sep 5, 2008)

maybe too long but smoother


----------



## Dave Connor (Sep 5, 2008)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Fri Sep 05 said:


> Thanks for all the amazing advice! I'm trying to smoothly go from one of my cues in one key (A min) to another (F min). I think I'll go with Dave C. or Fred's ideas.
> 
> You guys are terrific. Beers for all! o-[][]-o :wink:



I'll start drinking now Ned in anticipation of your musical success with said modulation.

Nice changes Rob. I played through them.


----------



## PoppaJimmy (Sep 5, 2008)

Rob @ Fri Sep 05 said:


> maybe too long but smoother




Rob:

Lovely!

Be Well,

Jimmy


----------



## wonshu (Sep 5, 2008)

I want more threads like this!!!!

Thanks guys!

Best
Hans


----------



## StrangeCat (Sep 5, 2008)

that's easy! Aminor, C7, Fminor. how is that hard? 

Let's look at the relationship of the keys Aminor is the thrid in Fmajor, Fmajor is parelle minor to Fminor, C7 is the Dominate in Fmajor. 
no sweat^_- and that formula is a cadence.


----------



## bryla (Sep 5, 2008)

Am - Gdim7 - Fm
Am - Gbdim7 - Fm
Am - A7(#11) - Fm
Am - Am/Bb - Bb/Gb - Fm
Am - Gb7(b5) - Fm


----------



## StrangeCat (Sep 5, 2008)

I also need to know the style of music your composing in to know what would work best. Obviously what i posted would be a classical transition.
bryla pretty much covered everything.


----------



## bryla (Sep 5, 2008)

Yeah style is pretty important... some music could justify just starting right on the Fm, and some would even continue the Am while the Fm was playing :D........ but I didn't think that was the case


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Sep 5, 2008)

Well it's not jazz! As some of you may have noticed from my cues, I don't do fancy harmonic progressions. This is for a dramatic underscore to a court scene. I ended up using the following progression. Simple, but effective. I really needed the E dim to reinforce the new key. Thanks again Dave C for the Ab in the bass suggestion. =o


----------



## Hannesdm (Sep 5, 2008)

wonshu @ Sat Sep 06 said:


> I want more threads like this!!!!
> 
> Thanks guys!
> 
> ...



I second that!!

Very interesting!

Keep going, guys! :wink:


----------



## StrangeCat (Sep 5, 2008)

ahh you still used a leading tone


----------



## Rob (Sep 6, 2008)

Ned Bouhalassa @ 5th September 2008 said:


> Rob,
> 
> Yeah, it's too long! But it's well done, thanks. One question though: the first chord in the 3rd bar - it seems a bit strange. F-Bb-E-G? E dim b9?



Hi Ned, that's the harmonic equivalent of the melodic appoggiatura. You know, when in place of a note you play the immediately upper or lower note, like instead of playing F you play G-F. In this case three of the notes of the Fm chord are doing appoggiaturas... Bb goes to Ab, E to F, G to Ab, while the bass who was playing the root moves to the seventh when the other parts resolve. The ear should tell you it's like C7/F going to Fm/Eb...


----------



## Markus S (Sep 6, 2008)

Shortcut : a minor chord (A C E) / then use a G7 with 5th in the bass (with the notes from lowest to highest : G, Bb, C, E) -> F min (F Ab C). Classical.


----------



## bryla (Sep 6, 2008)

You mean C7 with the 5th in the bass?


----------



## Stephen Baysted (Sep 6, 2008)

bryla @ Sat Sep 06 said:


> You mean C7 with the 5th in the bass?



Looks like it.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Sep 8, 2008)

And that was my point. I needed to establish the new key very quickly and unambiguously.


----------



## david robinson (Sep 8, 2008)

hi again,

Am/C - C#o(maj7) - Fm/C.

each voicing has a C top. 
the C#o(triad) with the major 7th (C) really grinds.

DR9.


----------



## Markus S (Sep 8, 2008)

david robinson @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> hi again,
> 
> Am/C - C#o(maj7) - Fm/C.
> 
> ...



Good one!

..if I get this right :

You keep the C in the Soprano (three times)

1. chord A C E (C on top)

2. chorg Ab / C / E (C on top)

3. chord Ab / C / F (C on top)

Very romantic!


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Sep 8, 2008)

Except that it just makes me want to go back to A min instead of really establishing a new F min key.


----------



## david robinson (Sep 8, 2008)

Markus S @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> david robinson @ Mon Sep 08 said:
> 
> 
> > hi again,
> ...



thanks marcus,


my original thoughts were these:


1. C E A (c)

2. C# E G (c)

3 C F Ab (c)


it's the specific voicing of chord 2 that can make the difference. (there's little to suggest a dominant function as the Bb note is omitted. sub-dom, maybe.)
the Fminor could easily have an F root under the voicing giving it more impact.

and yes, i'm aware the chord 2 can be regarded as V7b9 of Fm.

DR9.


----------



## Markus S (Sep 8, 2008)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> Except that it just makes me want to go back to A min instead of really establishing a new F min key.



The C7+ (in example with 5 th in bass) - G Bb C E) is the most certain (tonal) modulation. To not surprise the listener when going to Fa minor and not Fa Major, you could give the ear the Db. One voice could just pass it while playing ( C - Dd - C inside the C7+ chord), then you get to Fa minor in "the classical" way, no tonal ambiguity, one chord of transition. 

If you do not play the C, the chord (G / Bb / Db / E) could also go to another tonality, in exemple, D minor.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Sep 8, 2008)

OK, I won't argue forever on this. But I will say that while everything can work on paper, my reaction is based on what I hear when I play the keyboard. It's probably my narrow-minded harmonic brain, but I still think I'm in the key of A min with David's example. My use of the E dim may be not very subtle, but it really re-inforces the new key quickly.


----------



## Markus S (Sep 8, 2008)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> OK, I won't argue forever on this. But I will say that while everything can work on paper, my reaction is based on what I hear when I play the keyboard. It's probably my narrow-minded harmonic brain, but I still think I'm in the key of A min with David's example. My use of the E dim may be not very subtle, but it really re-inforces the new key quickly.



Hehe, no need to argue.. actually, we agree, as it is the same chord : E dim, as you write it above and C7+, only there is no fondamental (C). Playing a C with your chord E dim or Db won't change the harmonic "direction" or signification.

Best, glad you found the solution!


----------

