# Film scoring: to music school or not to music school?



## Jacob Fanto (Jun 3, 2022)

Hi all,

Real dilemma here. I just finished up my first year at a liberal arts college where I am studying music among other things, but I have begun to question whether I should try to get into and transfer to a music school such as Berklee for film scoring specifically (they offer a pretty comprehensive major in both film and game scoring). Though the school I am attending has a fairly good music curriculum, it doesn't really hold a candle to some of the tracks and courses offered at Berklee. It's difficult because film scoring is my dream job but I also enjoy studying other things and rounding out my education. However, I can't help but feel that in such a competitive industry, I am shooting myself in the foot regardless of how much independent study/composition I do by not attending a music school. I'm not making the connections/contacts that I should be and I won't be getting the same degree of music education. Plus, it would be nice to be surrounded by so many musically talented people.

If I stay at the school I'm at for the next three years, am I really hindering my chances of ever making it in the industry, eventually making a living off of music? Could I perhaps get by if I made use of my summers by attending composition/film scoring programs and making connections there? Perhaps go to a grad program, such as USC Thornton? I'm just so conflicted. What are people's thoughts? On this situation, and music schools in general. It's not so much the degree I care about (as it really doesn't matter at all in this field), but the connections and education I'd get.


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## José Herring (Jun 3, 2022)

Going to music school can be a lot of fun as long as you don't go into debt paying for it. Music school can't really guarantee that you'll be employed even as a teacher. You'll have to start off your career many times as a freelance musician which can have it's pit falls especially if you have to start making monthly payments on steep student loans.


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## allen-garvey (Jun 3, 2022)

Does your current school have a film department? I also went to a liberal arts school studying music, and one of my friends who was into film scoring was able to get a lot of experience scoring student films. This was because there were only a few composers, very few of which were interested in film scoring. So there can be advantages of being a big fish in a small pond.


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## Jacob Fanto (Jun 3, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Going to music school can be a lot of fun as long as you don't go into debt paying for it. Music school can't really guarantee that you'll be employed even as a teacher. You'll have to start off your career many times as a freelance musician which can have it's pit falls especially if you have to start making monthly payments on steep student loans.


Right, so if music school can't even guarantee that, then is there a downside to staying at a liberal arts college that also can't guarantee it, but allows me to study other things and perhaps find a backup?


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## Jacob Fanto (Jun 3, 2022)

allen-garvey said:


> Does your current school have a film department? I also went to a liberal arts school studying music, and one of my friends who was into film scoring was able to get a lot of experience scoring student films. This was because there were only a few composers, very few of which were interested in film scoring. So there can be advantages of being a big fish in a small pond.


Unfortunately there's not much of a film department, but some opportunities here and there pop up.


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## weeeeve (Jun 3, 2022)

Once upon a time I was a music student primarily interested in jazz performance. I went to a music school that didn't have much in the way of jazz training. In my two years in that music department, I was mostly frustrated that I wasn't learning what I wanted to, and there weren't any students around me interested, either. After touring in a band for 4 years, I enrolled at the University of North Texas, one of the great jazz schools in the world. The differences in school experiences was stark and stunning. If your desire is for film composition, then I strongly recommend you find a school that can deliver that education and experience to you, and that you can afford. Berklee is very expensive, but if the school you're currently attending is similarly priced, then absolutely, Berklee would be a great choice. Ditto USC and NYU.

Steven


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## José Herring (Jun 3, 2022)

A college degree is helpful. Just don't expect that you'll be getting a job straight away in this industry. Not that it's the fault of any school. It's just if you take a look at the market there aren't any guaranteed employment opportunities. Unless you'd like to work in the business administrative side of it.

The next best thing is music tech support. Learning how to use DAW's, programming, things of that nature. Mostly freelance but a bit more stable than gigging as a musician or composer.

Teaching unless you do it privately is very competitive and requires advanced degrees. Most people with Masters and Doctorates end up at highschools and university position. 

This isn't like being a Lawyer were there are law firms in high rise buildings throughout every major city in America. It's the music biz. Fun, unpredictable, sometimes for some very remunerative, for others sporadic earnings and for most don't make anything at all. 
Just know what you're getting into and you'll avoid the pitfalls.

If all you want to do is make film maker connections on the school level. Just walk into any film school and hang out. I use to hang flyers up in filmschools like once a few weeks. Ended up getting some films to score some of which won festivals. It was a fun but all together probably not necessary. 

If you feel you can write music just start pitching it to film, tv, streaming and commercial markets. Figure it out along the way. 

If you do go to music school, go for practical skills. Learn to orchestrate better, music theory, getting proficient at instruments, orchestration, synth programming, learning DAWS, ect... Think of it very technically. Skills, skills, skills.


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## NoamL (Jun 3, 2022)

Speaking as an NYU grad, IMO, don't attend one of these schools.

The only real education is on the job. Because of that it's *INCREDIBLY MORE *important to amass the set of skills that will make you useful to some composer as their assistant - a degree isn't really on that key list of skills, although any bachelor's degree shows you have drive & ability to learn.

The problem with music schools and particularly "film scoring programs" is they sell the dream of walking out of college and becoming a composer. When you look at the successful composers right now very many of them were ex-assistants who eventually got their own careers. Not only are many composers ex-"additional music" assistants, but many "additional music" people did not start out doing that, they started out doing grunt work and _gradually_ grew into a composer's right hand person.

College programs can't admit that's the real path because, why should they charge you $120,000 to learn to be an assistant paid an entry level wage - in one of USA's most expensive cities - in many cases at least _starting_ with the most basic clerical work while watching and learning? 

The truth is you can pick up the necessary assistant skills for free on youtube + other sources of self education, while completing your traditional music theory or composition degree at your LAC.

Nobody will care that your music degree is not from a "music school." If you walk into a composer interview really knowing your DAW, knowing music theory, knowing about audio & signal flow, reading sheet music & having a good background in instrumentation & orchestration, perhaps knowing a bit about synths or playing your own instrument or doing something else that can contribute creatively, you will have a leg up.

Any education beyond a bachelor's degree is wildly superfluous compared to getting going as a composer's assistant. It's not easy to get that first interview, but getting a master's degree or other credential won't help you any.

Many of these programs are also big on selling "connections," that is connections between newly-"Credentialed" composers and up-and-coming directors, which again is just not how it works. You don't get work from "connections" you get it from proving that you delivered good work in the past. So it's a catch 22, how can you ever get the "first" gig that proves you can write? The answer is someone has to take a risk on you. And many times a harried composer who is pleased to learn you actually understand music, can orchestrate, etc. is more likely to throw you that bone and let you prove yourself on a 2am cue, than a creative director or producer handing you a whole film. There are so many composers who have followed this path.

People might say in response to this post "what about all the people who became composers without being assistants" and I'd say great, let's make that list, _and then_ strike off every person who didn't have a successful commercial music career before switching laterally. See that's the other way of solving the catch 22. Of course there's _even less_ of an argument for getting an advanced education if your career path is going to be "bandleader who eventually becomes composer."


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## CT (Jun 3, 2022)

NoamL said:


> The problem with music schools and particularly "film scoring programs" is they sell the dream of walking out of college and becoming a composer.


Yes. A relative of mine just graduated from NYU's scoring program as well, and while I wish him well, based on his attitude I think he is in for a bit of a rude awakening.


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## Jeremy Gillam (Jun 3, 2022)

I too am an NYU graduate, albeit for film and TV production not music. I would definitely stay away from expensive schools unless you can afford it without going into debt. I think a more old-fashioned master-apprentice approach is a much better way to learn any craft. And of course, the internet!


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## rgames (Jun 3, 2022)

Whom do you most admire in the film music world?

Do what they did.


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## rgames (Jun 3, 2022)

And yes, DO NOT GO INTO DEBT.

If there's no market for a degree, then don't go into debt for it.


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## Chris Schmidt (Jun 3, 2022)

I will strongly vote "don't"


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## RonOrchComp (Jun 3, 2022)

rgames said:


> DO NOT GO INTO DEBT


This

Figure that it will take you years to start earning money. Meaning you will need to get/keep a day job to be able to pay off your debt, seriously hampering your music career.

You arent going to get a film scoring gig because you have a degree. You are going to get a film scoring gig because you have experience scoring films.


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## Roger Newton (Jun 3, 2022)

First off, it would great if they were to actually make films these days.

When you look at the so-called old timers like Goldsmith, Herrmann, Bernstein, Barry, Korngold, Tiomkin etc, I doubt if there's a film been made in the last 15 years that could even support one of their scores. It would collapse under the weight of it.
The idea of going into debt to study films at Berklee is almost comical in this day and age just so you can write endless drones to an endless drone.
The likes of Newman and Elfman must find it all rather confusing these days.


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## Delboy (Jun 3, 2022)

Another thing to remember that worldwide (not just the US) there are hundreds coming off the graduate production run every year all thinking they are the next best talent (some may well be thats true) but all looking for jobs or breaks in production/composing for the film tv and game media. Is it worth going into debt as well .. my son will have a student debt for sure and no gnty in getting a job in this area. Even the Uni he is at admit that but they take their money every year regardless of that. Best of luck to you.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 3, 2022)

I also vote "don't". If you want to be a film composer, get in touch with a local independent film-makers group (or film school) and get your feet wet with scoring a bunch of low/zero budget films; this way you can get some experience. Your #1 tool is networking and finding the right people to hang out with. Going into debt for "film scoring" is pointless, as there is literally little chance of getting official work as a result. If anything, take formal music training (even orchestration) and try and get your foot in the door somewhere as an assistant if you're in a big hub.


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## rgames (Jun 3, 2022)

Delboy said:


> they take their money every year regardless of that


Slightly OT but the reason is that the demand for college degrees is artificial, at least in the US. That's why we (the US) have a massive student debt crisis: there's a huge mismatch between supply and demand that is created by the "you need a college degree" mentality that pervades the discourse on education. Trade school education makes a lot more sense for a lot of students; music is a great example of a profession that would benefit more from a trade school approach than a typical four-year degree. (Very few of my musical heroes have music degrees). But trade schools in the US suffer from a "lower status" reputation here in the US, a shame because trades are the backbone of a functioning society. 50 years ago the US valued trades but that perception has waned.

Universities capitalize on the college push by saying "Sure. We'll give you a degree." And they charge for it regardless of what education is actually demanded by the markets they purport to serve.

*Here's the solution*: make the universities underwrite the student debt. That way there's an economic feedback loop between what they charge and what the markets actually demand.

If a university hands out degrees that nobody wants, they'll pile up debt that can't be repaid and they'll go out of business. The universities that do offer degrees that markets want will provide sufficient income for students to repay the loans and those universities will remain in business and thrive (this is basically how top US universities function right now).

The current system in the US allows the universities to have *zero* skin in the game. They have every incentive to bury a student under a pile of debt, so that's what they do, market demands be damned.

But I digress... carry on 

rgames


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## kenose (Jun 3, 2022)

NoamL said:


> Speaking as an NYU grad, IMO, don't attend one of these schools.
> 
> The only real education is on the job. Because of that it's *INCREDIBLY MORE *important to amass the set of skills that will make you useful to some composer as their assistant - a degree isn't really on that key list of skills, although any bachelor's degree shows you have drive & ability to learn.
> 
> ...


As a Berklee grad, I could not agree more. Everyone who I knew in the film scoring program that was able to find success after graduating would have found success regardless of if they went to Berklee or not. I firmly believe that.

Working in this industry really requires one to be quite the autodidact. There is no academic curriculum that can truly prepare someone for the fast-paced and ever evolving world of music for media, it just doesn't exist. So unless you have a full-ride scholarship, you are pissing away time and money that would be better spent actively sharpening your writing and tech skills through the multitude of online resources (many of which are free), and trying to shove your foot in the door to acquire some sort of on the job experience.

If you need a structured curriculum to learn this stuff, unfortunately music for media is not the world for you— because like others said, if you buy into the BS these programs spout you will be in for an extremely rude awakening when you get thrown into the real world. I can safely say that I learned more in the first couple months working with an established composer than I did my entire 3 years at Berklee.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 3, 2022)

rgames said:


> But trade schools in the US suffer from a "lower status" reputation here in the US, a shame because trades are the backbone of a functioning society. 50 years ago the US valued trades but that perception has waned.


Great point, and it's not much different in Canada, where is difficult to get the younger generation interested in the trades (which is thinning out). The ones that do decide to go that route reap the financial benefits. For example, if you take a refrigeration mechanic apprenticeship at 18 years old here, you're earning minimum $90k per year by the time you're 22. Sure, it may not be a creative gig, but it's a decent career to keep one going and, ultimately, the freedom to pursue the musical dream on the side without worrying about an income. And also, no educational debt.


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## Jacob Fanto (Jun 3, 2022)

Thanks for all the responses everyone. A mixed bag, no surprise.


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## stonzthro (Jun 3, 2022)

Film school - the last thing you need is to meet more composers...


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 3, 2022)

stonzthro said:


> Film school - the last thing you need is to meet more composers...


And ironically, each other's competition.


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## Rick McGuire (Jun 3, 2022)

I think music school (especially film scoring) is worthwhile. At least it was for me. I just finished with my master's in film scoring so I'm in my early years of figuring out was all the schooling "worth it." I will say any work that I have done that was paid has been through my own networking (so far) and not because of school. I think going to school gives you some validity with people who will pay you, but credits and ability matter significantly more.

For me personally, I grappled a lot last year if I was going to do USC's master's after getting accepted. I eventually decided to go for it despite the INSANE student debt because I know of a lot of people who did the program and now work full time in the industry. There's also a good amount of alumni that have hit it big because they went to USC. There's definitely a lot of alumni I'm sure who haven't been as lucky.

I think music school is absolutely what you put into it. If you can score films, learn how to create mock-ups, and record with orchestras on your own then might as well do that. The advantage of going to music school is ideally having mentors who are doing the thing that you want to do so you can avoid mistakes they've made. So unless the faculty at these schools are actively scoring films or games then you shouldn't waste your money.


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## PaulieDC (Jun 3, 2022)

So I took Berklee's Orchestration 1 class online and it was the discipline I needed and the "basics of orchestration" firehose I needed to drink out of. You already sound like you have determination by asking the question and you're already been through more expensive schooling. Plus, Berklee's chair in that department only knows the word ProTools, and forces you to take ProTools courses in the curriculum. Cubase and Logic and something someone may have heard about, and Studio One? You mean Abbey Road, right? But overall the Berklee course _was _good for me, so I could eat sleep and breathe orchestration for 12 weeks, and I miss it. Not sure I'd do the whole certificate or degree thing there though.

Soooooooooooooooooooo... Another option at this point (and the road I'm going down, just slower for my own pleasure) is the multi-hour video courses that get right to the point. In fact, we have several members who have put them out, most of which I own and am starting these after the Berklee class. So just as a bullet list for you to peruse the idea, here are some of the ones I own or will own:

ThinkSpace Education's Cinematic Composing
Thinkspace Education's Music for the Media
Note about Thinkspace: they also have short courses for $99, often on sale, and ALSO offer full degrees online like Berklee, accredited through Chichester University.

Nico's Digital Composing courses
Ben Botkin's courses on film scoring and dealing with the business, delivery, etc etc
Mattia Chiapa's 20th Century Orchestration on MasterTheScore.com
Phillip Johnston's Orchestration Recipes... talk about a fast way to put together an idea, wow
So just some ideas if you want to spend less and take a didactic approach. Oh, you also have www.groove3.com and www.macprovideo.com for excellent courses in most DAWs and notation programs. Both sites allow you to purchase or do an all-you-can-eat subscription, and both have iOS apps to access your content.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 3, 2022)

Rick McGuire said:


> There's also a good amount of alumni that have hit it big because they went to USC.


What do you mean by “hit it big”?


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## PaulieDC (Jun 3, 2022)

stonzthro said:


> Film school - the last thing you need is to meet more composers...


STILL cracking up over this...


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## Jerry Growl (Jun 3, 2022)

In my country music schools and music high schools are subsidised, so the price tag is really affordable compared to other countries. 

Still if you look at music schools as a place where you will get every knowledge and skills on a platter, you're in for some disenchantment. Actually you should be aware music schools are more of a time than a place. A time to educate yourself with what school offers you, but even more with what you offer yourself. 

If you don't go beyond the books and the teachers in front of you, you will probably only start learning the valuable stuff once you're out of school.


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## Gabriel S. (Jun 4, 2022)

What you have to learn is Orchestration, Music Theory, Aural Skills, Classical and Modern Harmony, Piano and Production (DAW, mockups, mixing, etc). If your actual school doesn't teach that then my suggestion is: YES, but as others said ---> NO DEBT please. Avoid expensive schools no matter how fancy they are. In a school you'll learn also a lot from your classmates, so choose wisely.

Regarding connections...there are tons of stories about how to do that...and almost everyone who succeeded has a different one. But I never heard something like "I studied here and thanks to that and only to that now I have a job". So I'd say: first focus on being a great composer and a great human being and then things will follow naturally 

I'm studying Film Scoring and my knowledge in the last 2 years has grown dramatically. Of course, like with any other degree, the outcome depends on you. But that's not surprise. You have to decide and build your own future and your own career, the Uni only gives you a framework for that, and some useful knowledge that you'll have to continue developing after your studies.

Also, no school is perfect. Better always to complement it with extra books and extra courses. There's always some disappointment in any music school I'd say. Even Philip Glass was disappointed of Juilliard School of Music (he said so) and after his degree he went to France to study with Nadia Boulanger for 2 years. So not even the greatest music school in the world was enough.


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## Roger Newton (Jun 4, 2022)

I went to a music college and film score/tv music music back then was more or less regarded as garbage (and look at the composers then compared to now btw). It was tolerated and occasionally film score writers of note would come round and give a lecture. The main curriculum was classical music and actually being able to play. To keep up with the money required to survive in London I worked very part time in Harrods demonstrating harpsichords to wealthy people that wanted them as pretty furniture and down the road a little in Austin Reeds stock room.
That has changed drastically over the years and not necessarily for the better. Wanting to get into media music when basically 90% of them probably can't even play at a basic level makes no sense.


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## Daryl (Jun 4, 2022)

Lots of useful points made above. This topic is really three or four subjects, so I think you need to work through it like a decision tree.

"What do you expect to get out of a film scoring course" is the first question you should ask yourself. Once you know this, then move onto the next question.


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## rgames (Jun 4, 2022)

Jerry Growl said:


> In my country music schools and music high schools are subsidised


They are in the US as well, but not for everyone who wants a music degree. They're highly selective because there's not a huge demand for music degrees.

You have vastly more opportunities for a free university education in engineering, science and mathematics. Almost nobody pays for graduate school in those fields and undergraduate education is highly subsidized as well, so students in those fields graduate with small debt compared to their average earnings.

The deal is the students work on some problem the federal government or some corporation has deemed worthy and in exchange they get an education and just barely enough money to live on.

People outside the US (and many inside the US) seem to think the US doesn't pay for university degrees. We do. But the amount of money available is balanced against market demands for the degree. Therefore, the number of opportunities vary significantly based on the field of study.

rgames


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## Jacob Fanto (Jun 4, 2022)

Hi everyone. I don’t want to say I’ve reached a firm decision yet, but I am certainly leaning towards not attending music school.

A lot of great points were made here. I think I’ve realized that the cost just isn’t justified when on my own, and through the music curriculum at my current school, I can learn pretty much all I need to. I’ve already been doing loads of independent study via books, score analysis, and online courses like ScoreClub to round out my compositional skills. I think I just need to continue using these resources and continue to write and write and write more music. 

As for film scoring specifically, there are highly regarded online courses I can take for a tiny fraction of the price of Berklee, as @PaulieDC linked to. I’ll continue to score scenes with the music removed, loads of which are available for free online. And I think I’ll make use of my summers by attending 4-5 week film scoring programs and making as many connections as I can.


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## Daryl (Jun 4, 2022)

rgames said:


> They are in the US as well, but not for everyone who wants a music degree. They're highly selective because there's not a huge demand for music degrees.
> 
> You have vastly more opportunities for a free university education in engineering, science and mathematics. Almost nobody pays for graduate school in those fields and undergraduate education is highly subsidized as well, so students in those fields graduate with small debt compared to their average earnings.
> 
> ...


However, there is a difference between education, and a qualification, though. People who are educated have transferable skills. People who have a qualification, may have transferable skills.


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## NoamL (Jun 4, 2022)

If you are gonna consider any program I would consider either Berklee, USC, or the USC SMPTV certificate if that still exists.

Consider the FACULTY as the most important factor. Who is teaching you and what experience do they really have to offer. Have they actually worked in film any time since 2001.

I just looked up my old program and the faculty are much the same as when I attended in 2010-2012. That's not a very good sign. It means they're unlikely to have updated the curriculum to keep up with all the changes in our field. At the time I attended, the emphasis was on Finale, we barely learned about DAWs and not at all about VIs. That was out of date _then_. EDIT: I now recall exchanging some emails with the program head in the mid 2010s where he asked some graduates for suggestions about overhauling the program. So it's possible things may have changed.

Just because I am skeptical of film scoring programs doesn't mean you don't need an education. Every advantage you can grab is worth it, and actually music is a lifetime study of self education. It's just that these continuing educational journeys don't really fit into the idea of a "curriculum." For example you should certainly learn to play piano, but you don't need to pay food & board to take lessons. On the other hand, a 2 year or 4 year course is actually going to be too _short_ to fully develop your ear training & transcription skills, which (for me at least) developed over much longer. And nothing really replicates the experience of working on a film or tv show and assisting a working composer.

If you go to college I feel it's best to make a list of your top 3 or 4 academic interests and attend a solid liberal arts college that can let you balance your interests, switch majors or double-major without transferring.

Maybe it was because I was attending a LAC in the first place (Whitman) but nearly all my friends switched majors or took a 2nd major at some point in their 4 years, as did I.

That LAC won't give you a technical background in "how to use a DAW," but it doesn't seem to me like many of these "Scoring for Screen" programs are any better positioned.

A lot of these programs offer "Recording opportunities" to record a small orchestra with some copyright-free video clips. That's cool but the cost to do something like this yourself - hire a recording engineer, hire a local college's auditorium or theater, hire musicians - is once again a fraction of the cost of these programs, where you're really paying for tuition and boarding.

if you get a full scholarship or can attend free workshops, seminars or summer camps, that tilts the equation.


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## NoamL (Jun 4, 2022)

rgames said:


> They are in the US as well, but not for everyone who wants a music degree. They're highly selective because there's not a huge demand for music degrees.
> 
> You have vastly more opportunities for a free university education in engineering, science and mathematics. Almost nobody pays for graduate school in those fields and undergraduate education is highly subsidized as well, so students in those fields graduate with small debt compared to their average earnings.
> 
> ...


People who get STEM degrees also significantly out-earn people who go into trades and are less likely to have health problems later. College is still a good deal even with tuition inflation, as long as the down payment yields a degree in a high earning field. People are rational to chase a college degree and to pressure their kids to go to college. It's a good life choice. It's just that many "softer" fields are offering their own degrees in imitation of professional & academic degrees, and it's a much more dubious proposition to go to college to study these subjects. Film scoring degrees almost didn't exist in the early 2000s. Now there's more than a dozen prominent programs. Did anything actually change about the field, or is this just the invention of a credential to meet demand from students and parents? With a law degree plus passing the bar, you have an actual credential that means something, or at least _without which_ you can't get anywhere. A "film scoring credential" means nothing. There is no credential moat around any art.


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## SyMTiK (Jun 4, 2022)

I think college in general is kind of an "it depends" situation. There are a lot of factors to consider, obviously the financial impact being a major one.

For me, Berklee made a lot of sense for my situation and I am glad I went. But, I will say I was extremely fortunate and privileged to end up with very minimal student loans out of school, which was a big factor in me being able to go and justifying it, and I want to note that because I do recognize the difference in perspective when coming out of college with little to no debt vs 10s of and 100s of thousands in debt. If I would have been in serious debt, I probably would not have gone and would have gone more of the DIY route in gaining an education and experience. I still think it is worth auditioning and applying no matter what - you never know what sort of scholarship they may give you. The scholarship is entirely based off of your audition. While in school, there are also more opportunities for merit scholarships, but these are not a guarantee. 

I personally wanted a college experience - I think there are a lot of other valuable experiences you gain from college beyond academics that are meaningful. Obviously these memories are still fresh considering I only graduated a year ago, but my memories living in Boston are some of my best memories and I learned a lot about myself while there, and pretty much 90% of the friends I have were made through Berklee and living in Boston.

For me, I grew up in a small town with not much of a music scene, and was the only musician in my family. I felt that Berklee was a great opportunity for me to be surrounded by other musicians with the same goals and aspirations as me, and it definitely succeeded in that regard. I went from being the only person in my entire town who aspired to be a professional musician, to being surrounded by professional musicians. Could I have done this through other means? Yes. But Berklee was an option that made sense for me. 

I will also note, that I genuinely just really wanted to go to Berklee. I did a summer workshop in high school, and fell in love with the college and the idea of going to school in Boston. It was an experience that I genuinely really wanted to have, and I think that is really important to consider - is the college experience something that really matters to you? Is it a life goal of yours? If there is a lot of sentimental value to you in attending such a school, then it really comes down to is it worth it to YOU. For me, it was a huge goal of mine and inspired me to keep going further in music, and gave me a wealth of connections, friendships, experiences, and opportunities that I didn't have before. 

Now as far as its value in terms of getting a job in the industry - it did at least help me in my experience. I feel that I was well prepared to work in this industry, and the current gig I have as a composers assistant I got recommended for through a close friend I made at Berklee. Again, could I have still ended up as a composers assistant if I didn't go to Berklee? Maybe, but I can't know because that isn't the choice I made in life. 

I feel as far as education is concerned I am well prepared for most tasks that are thrown my way, and I think when learning everything on your own it can be a bit of a mixed bag as to what skills you know really well or not. I feel that Berklee gave me a very well rounded education and exposed me to certain skills I wouldn't have even considered beforehand. It helped me grow significantly as a musician.

I do think that no matter what, do not underestimate how valuable education is to succeed in this career. You can't JUST be talented, talent gets you in the door - skill and knowledge is what helps you succeed and keep a good working reputation. Whether you gain that education through college, mentorship, or self study, it is important to always be learning as much as you can. You don't need more gear, you need more books!

Lastly - there are so many different avenues to break into this industry, that it is hard to say one is right or wrong. I listen to Score The Podcast a lot, and listen to the back stories of all the different composers they bring onto the show at the top of the industry. And every single one of them had a different path into the industry. Some have tons of education, some have none. Some were never assistants, some were assistants for a decade before their first big opportunity. Everyone's path is different. What worked for me and others might not work for you. What works for you might not have worked for me. Only commonality I can say across the board is every single person who "makes it" works their tail off. If you don't, someone will take your position who will.

ONE LAST BIG SUGGESTION - if you do decide to go to a music school, do every possible general ed class you can at a community college, as many as are allowed to transfer. DO NOT pay top dollar for a f***ing english class at Berklee or any top dollar college it is a colossal waste of time and money. I graduated a year early by doing 1 year at a community college. could have probably even cut it down more, I know some people who have managed to graduate in 4 and 5 semesters if they play their cards right.


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## Composerbell (Jun 4, 2022)

NoamL said:


> Speaking as an NYU grad, IMO, don't attend one of these schools.
> 
> The only real education is on the job. Because of that it's *INCREDIBLY MORE *important to amass the set of skills that will make you useful to some composer as their assistant - a degree isn't really on that key list of skills, although any bachelor's degree shows you have drive & ability to learn.
> 
> ...


There’s some stuff here that’s good and quite a lot I strongly disagree with.

1. I actually teach several private students now, who I specifically picked up because they thought buying quality samples and taking video courses and watching youtube would deliver the education they needed. It does not. While there is a LOT you can learn online, it is SUPPLEMENTAL and DOES NOT work as a foundation for education. Many times I’ll be explaining something and they’ll realize I’m covering something they saw in a video, but it had gone over their head at the time. Without individual feedback, customized assignments that focus your learning on specific skills, and some sort of structure to build a foundation on, you WILL get stuck.

2. Similarly, while you mention useful skills like score reading and orchestration, the way you get good at that stuff will not be through youtube videos. You have to practice, and nothing motivates practice like getting a performance review (ie grades and assignment deadlines).

3. You are spot on about the Catch22 problem, and that many composers come from the assistant route (ala John Powell, Tom Holkenberg) or the artist route (Trent Reznor, Danny Elfman). But there are also plenty of examples of people who just went big by doing scoring (Michael Giacchino, Carter Burwell). There is no easy way to the top, and frankly, very few make it to A list. Most working composers, making a living writing and creating music, are not A listers. And that’s OK (though I think most of us dream of growing to the top, you don’t have to - there is great success in the less famous roles of trailer composers and library composers). Only looking at A listers is a limited view of the options availoble to a media scoring career.


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## Composerbell (Jun 4, 2022)

rgames said:


> Delboy said:
> 
> 
> > Another thing to remember that worldwide (not just the US) there are hundreds coming off the graduate production run every year all thinking they are the next best talent (some may well be thats true) but all looking for jobs or breaks in production/composing for the film tv and game media. Is it worth going into debt as well .. my son will have a student debt for sure and no gnty in getting a job in this area. Even the Uni he is at admit that but they take their money every year regardless of that. Best of luck to you.





Delboy said:


> Another thing to remember that worldwide (not just the US) there are hundreds coming off the graduate production run every year all thinking they are the next best talent (some may well be thats true) but all looking for jobs or breaks in production/composing for the film tv and game media. Is it worth going into debt as well .. my son will have a student debt for sure and no gnty in getting a job in this area. Even the Uni he is at admit that but they take their money every year regardless of that. Best of luck to you.


You’re not really competing against the global market though. There’s a HUGE Bollywood industry, and Chinese cinema. You don’t see that in the US whatsoever. You’re either pursuing Anime, or you aren’t, but there will be little cross competition between those going that way and those going into horror. Or those who want to do dramas, or action films.

The industry is very segmented, and while you see some crossover between a few genres, if you’re modeling off A listers, you don’t exactly see horror scores by Giacchino or rom coms by Danny Elfman. Which is not to say that never happens, but my point is only that you’re not competing with “everyone, everywhere, all at once”.


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## Composerbell (Jun 4, 2022)

SyMTiK said:


> I think college in general is kind of an "it depends" situation. There are a lot of factors to consider, obviously the financial impact being a major one.
> 
> For me, Berklee made a lot of sense for my situation and I am glad I went. But, I will say I was extremely fortunate and privileged to end up with very minimal student loans out of school, which was a big factor in me being able to go and justifying it, and I want to note that because I do recognize the difference in perspective when coming out of college with little to no debt vs 10s of and 100s of thousands in debt. If I would have been in serious debt, I probably would not have gone and would have gone more of the DIY route in gaining an education and experience. I still think it is worth auditioning and applying no matter what - you never know what sort of scholarship they may give you. The scholarship is entirely based off of your audition. While in school, there are also more opportunities for merit scholarships, but these are not a guarantee.
> 
> ...


This is the best advice I’ve seen on here yet. 100% agree!


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## Composerbell (Jun 4, 2022)

A few things I’d like to say not in response to what others have already said.

1. I’ve been working in this industry for 10 years in LA now. Berklee grads are extremely numerous. Is that a good or a bad thing? I dunno. But I don’t see a lot of up and comers surviving here who don’t have Berklee or USC under their belt. Very, very few.

2. I did UC Santa Barbara for my undergrad, which was enlightening and incredibly frustrating. They’re an avant-garde focused school that really push their students to break rules and do something surprising. That has it’s benefits, and they cover a lot of 20th century techniques, which is quite important in this field if you like to focus on darker styles (as opposed to if you dream of doing light orchestral fantasy). But still, I was continually frustrated by how no one was interested in evoking an emotion, it was all about technique. In that view, sticking with a nonscoring program can be very frustrating, even if it does still give you a useful set of skills.

3. I then did the USC SMPTV program (now called Screen Scoring I think). It’s absolutely incredible. They go over DAWS and the skills needed to be an assistant. They cover all the steps needed to go from blank page to finished delivered score, technical considerations and processes. There’s a dozen recording sessions so you really learn the process of orchestrating, recording and conducting, and mixing music through the whole pipeline. This is all advanced stuff, AFTER you’re expected to have learned how to write emotional, evocative music and have decent orchestration skills from college. They only accept 20 students a year, and it is extremely competitive to get in. You have to actually be good just to learn this stuff from them.

4. I too can trace my entire career back to USC. 1 part is a friend I made there who went the “direct to composer” route - he didn’t mess around with being an assistant, nor having a performing artist career. He just went straight to scoring indie games until one hit big, and now he’s one of the biggest game composers out there. It can happen. My other primary branch is because composers know you get quality assistants from USC, and will send job postings there. If I hadn’t been at USC, it’s doubtful that I would have even learned of the assistant opening, nor would I have been nearly as prepared as I was for the interview to get the job. That job is what sustained me for years, working full time in the industry - and I still orchestrate for that composer. That first job out of USC is the relationship that got me orchestrating and writing music on the recent Matrix film.

5. I also scored 17 student projects while at USC. Even if NONE of those pans out into future work, the experience you gain from scoring numerous short films and short games is immense. You can do all the classes you want, but you learn a lot by doing. You fumble around a lot on student films as you have to figure out for yourself what works for you. You’re not ready to score a feature just because you know hoe to write “in the style of ___”. Getting practice on student projects is essential to building up your skill set before striking out into the wider world. Competition is less fierce too, as it’s low/no pay so they don’t attract professionals (there’ll still be a bunch of competition, but at least you’re not totally out-gunned).

If you could do a little research (I haven’t done this, I just have my suspicions) but it may be enlightening for you to look at A and B list composers and see, among those who didn’t have performing artist careers first, how many do or don’t have a music degree? Another factor here is that those performing artist types enter the scoring field with a lot of money already, and are able to hire help to cover their skill deficiencies.


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## SyMTiK (Jun 4, 2022)

Composerbell said:


> You’re not really competing against the global market though. There’s a HUGE Bollywood industry, and Chinese cinema. You don’t see that in the US whatsoever. You’re either pursuing Anime, or you aren’t, but there will be little cross competition between those going that way and those going into horror. Or those who want to do dramas, or action films.
> 
> The industry is very segmented, and while you see some crossover between a few genres, if you’re modeling off A listers, you don’t exactly see horror scores by Giacchino or rom coms by Danny Elfman. Which is not to say that never happens, but my point is only that you’re not competing with “everyone, everywhere, all at once”.


Strongly agree - there are far more jobs and markets that exist outside of just the A list blockbuster film industry. Lots of my friends and former classmates do all sorts of different, lucrative jobs involving composing and producing. A friend of mine writes and sells songs for sync, and selling songs to huge pop stars. She recently sold 2 songs she wrote in a weekend for an incredible amount of money. The label she signed with discovered her at an A&R event at Berklee. I have friends writing music in advertising, mixing scores, doing post production work, lots of us going the assistant route - but in all different parts of the industry. Some are assisting A list composers in film, some are at production houses working on TV/trailers/library music, a bunch of people working in games making seriously good money right out of school. I know of former students a few years ahead of me who are already lead composers on TV shows and major films, and audio directors at AAA game studios. There are so many jobs I didn't even know existed until I went to school. 



Composerbell said:


> 1. I’ve been working in this industry for 10 years in LA now. Berklee grads are extremely numerous. Is that a good or a bad thing? I dunno. But I don’t see a lot of up and comers surviving here who don’t have Berklee or USC under their belt. Very, very few.


Yup, I only just recently got out to LA but I can say that from what I have seen so far peeking my head in a lot of different studios here, almost every assistant in the room has been from Berklee or USC. And often they are assisting a lead composer that also went to one of those schools. There are a few major composer collectives/production houses out here for TV and film that are made up almost entirely of Berklee and USC graduates. And I imagine too that as these college programs become more widespread, it will only create even more competition to land positions as assistants. 

I just think the mistake some unfortunately make is buying into the idea that the degree alone will grant you the job. No one is handing someone fresh out of music school a multi million dollar budget to score a blockbuster. Being realistic with the path that stands before you when coming out of school is really important, and knowing how to keep taking advantage of the resources and network you leave with.



Composerbell said:


> 1. I actually teach several private students now, who I specifically picked up because they thought buying quality samples and taking video courses and watching youtube would deliver the education they needed. It does not. While there is a LOT you can learn online, it is SUPPLEMENTAL and DOES NOT work as a foundation for education. Many times I’ll be explaining something and they’ll realize I’m covering something they saw in a video, but it had gone over their head at the time. Without individual feedback, customized assignments that focus your learning on specific skills, and some sort of structure to build a foundation on, you WILL get stuck.
> 
> 2. Similarly, while you mention useful skills like score reading and orchestration, the way you get good at that stuff will not be through youtube videos. You have to practice, and nothing motivates practice like getting a performance review (ie grades and assignment deadlines).



This is very important to consider. I myself was self taught on piano, theory, and production for the most part before I went to Berklee, and before I started piano lessons a couple years before going. I remember going into that first piano lesson, I played Claire De Lune by ear/memorization. My teacher said "wow, that is pretty impressive that you did most of that by ear. What you probably don't realize though, is how incorrectly you played most of it. You got 75% of the notes right, but you are missing a lot of notes and phrasing information, and therefore not playing the piece correctly at all since you don't know how to read music. And that is why lessons are important." And he was right, there were so many little nuances that I missed by not knowing how to read music well at the time. I am grateful that I can now fully analyze and transcribe full pieces of music by ear, and it is something to this day that I practice daily. I consider it one of the more important skills to learn as a musician. 

At the VERY least, I think getting private lessons from a qualified teacher is really important.


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## Composerbell (Jun 4, 2022)

SyMTiK said:


> Strongly agree - there are far more jobs and markets that exist outside of just the A list blockbuster film industry. Lots of my friends and former classmates do all sorts of different, lucrative jobs involving composing and producing. A friend of mine writes and sells songs for sync, and selling songs to huge pop stars. She recently sold 2 songs she wrote in a weekend for an incredible amount of money. The label she signed with discovered her at an A&R event at Berklee. I have friends writing music in advertising, mixing scores, doing post production work, lots of us going the assistant route - but in all different parts of the industry. Some are assisting A list composers in film, some are at production houses working on TV/trailers/library music, a bunch of people working in games making seriously good money right out of school. I know of former students a few years ahead of me who are already lead composers on TV shows and major films, and audio directors at AAA game studios. There are so many jobs I didn't even know existed until I went to school.
> 
> 
> Yup, I only just recently got out to LA but I can say that from what I have seen so far peeking my head in a lot of different studios here, almost every assistant in the room has been from Berklee or USC. And often they are assisting a lead composer that also went to one of those schools. There are a few major composer collectives/production houses out here for TV and film that are made up almost entirely of Berklee and USC graduates. And I imagine too that as these college programs become more widespread, it will only create even more competition to land positions as assistants.
> ...


Absolutely. In fact, a lot of my musical development after school (as an assistant) was basically learning to listen to music ever more carefully. Because you have to capture the essence of the temp track, and if you just pull the most obvious elements, you find that while you have onvious similaries, you’re also just…”lacking” in the magic of the original.

A lot of what makes a piece of music reach a professional level (both in media as well as any other medium) is all the subtleties which support the main ideas. And you get a lot of that by transcribing, being told you didn’t do good enough, and then going back and listening again for what you may have missed.

I like to compare this, in mixing, arranging, orchestrating, or composing, to how Bach learned music by copying the composers before him. Because back then, any copying had to be done by hand, and that was how you’d learn music. Seeing exactly what people had done before you, spotting the things you’d never have thought of, and then writing with those techniques immediately after to get those tricks into your hands. And then accumulating them over years.

Of course, that’s sort of something you can do without a college education, but again, it’s quite different when it’s a job and you have to avoid plagiarism lawsuits while still capturing as much of the reference as possible - and you have to please the composer and/or director who has a very detailed ear themself. The feedback and the push to do better even after you think you’ve done everything you can is an important element to this.


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## chillbot (Jun 4, 2022)

Composerbell said:


> 1. I actually teach several private students now, who I specifically picked up because they thought buying quality samples and taking video courses and watching youtube would deliver the education they needed. It does not. While there is a LOT you can learn online, it is SUPPLEMENTAL and DOES NOT work as a foundation for education. Many times I’ll be explaining something and they’ll realize I’m covering something they saw in a video, but it had gone over their head at the time. Without individual feedback, customized assignments that focus your learning on specific skills, and some sort of structure to build a foundation on, you WILL get stuck.
> 
> 2. Similarly, while you mention useful skills like score reading and orchestration, the way you get good at that stuff will not be through youtube videos. You have to practice, and nothing motivates practice like getting a performance review (ie grades and assignment deadlines).


Spot on.
Not only do I always recommend music school if it's at all an option... I will risk the wrath of everyone in this thread and even recommend going into debt for it if you have to.


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## GtrString (Jun 4, 2022)

Wanna work in film, go to film school. Even as a composer.


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## Composerbell (Jun 4, 2022)

GtrString said:


> Wanna work in film, go to film school. Even as a composer.


Eh, there are a couple of examples of this (Giacchino, who also went to music school, and Ottman, who is the only person I know of who both film edits and composes), but as far as I am aware, that’s about it.

You might include the likes of Clint Eastwood and Tom Tykwer, who write music for their own films, but this really isn’t a path to film scoring if that’s your actual target. People want to hire expertise, and while going to film school will get you very well connected, you also won’t be desirable as a composer as you will not be an expert at it.


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## Composerbell (Jun 4, 2022)

Another point I just thought of - let’s think about how many hours you’re spending honing your craft. In college, you spend what, 15 hours a week in class? And then add to that homework/projects, and time reading those boring textbooks that cover the less exciting-but-important material that you’d never have the interest to spend 10’s or 100’s of hours reading and practicing if you crafted your education entirely around your interests - but which actually grow you as a composer in important ways.

Compare that to self teaching/video courses, where you’re picking what interests you, you’re not graded or given critical feedback, and if you’re working a job and paying bills, likely not spending 30-40 hours a week on music. 

This leads into the question of debt and cost, because like many here, I’m very against debt. I was lucky/privileged enough to receive my education without crippling debt, but that concern is real. Conversely, if you’re not willing to take that kind of risk on, this industry probably isn’t for you - it’s an extremely risky business, one in which I personally struggle to will myself to take on necessary risks in all the time - but the risks ARE necessary.

That cost of the education buys you more than just classes, feedback, or connections. It also buys you the time to spend 40 hours a week developing as a composer instead of working at Denny’s to pay bills and learn music on the side.

Let’s just think, 40 hours of music a week x 30 weeks a year x 4 years is 4,800 hours of development. If you don’t go to school, how long do you realistically see it taking for you to spend that much time on your musical development?


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## JohnG (Jun 4, 2022)

SyMTiK said:


> Everyone's path is different. What worked for me and others might not work for you. What works for you might not have worked for me. Only commonality I can say across the board is every single person who "makes it" works their tail off. If you don't, someone will take your position who will.


That is helpful.

Personally, I think the reason to go to university is not to "learn skills that make you more money" or to get a job in music or any field, but to enrich your life. I spent far more time there studying poetry, art, history, and other non-musical subjects than I did music as such. Every one of those other subjects (even astronomy) has made my life better in some way. 

AS @SyMTiK wrote, every composer has a different path, but there are a few commonalities, some of which he and others have mentioned:

*1. You have to meet people. *You don't get jobs sitting at home on the internet (even though I bet someone can come up with an example). 

*2. It's not your skills, it's trust.* Nobody I've met in the movie / tv business looks at my resume. Nobody has ever asked me if I can orchestrate, or copy parts, or conduct, or -- anything relevant to film scoring. People will only trust you with a $10 million or even a $1 million film if you are known to them as a reliable, flexible, positive and extremely hard-working person. My own experience suggests that has a lot more to do with spending time with people playing sports, sailing, meeting them when you pick up your kids at school -- that kind of social / human interaction.

*3. It takes years.* Maybe 10? Maybe more?

*4. It's the other skills, not your composing, that might lead to an assistant's job.* Being able to do all the things the composer doesn't have time for -- editing sound, finishing off a cue, orchestrating (maybe), making a nice lunch or latte (don't underestimate).

*5. Having the right vibe. * Some people like 'funny jokester,' some like 'serious young person,' some like -- who knows? Why do people decide to date or get married? Laugh if you like but it's much more that kind of decision, a more-or-less irrational one. I have never experienced what you would call an "interview" for any music-related job, where the questioner ticks through a thought-out series of questions. 

*6. Friends.* As in life generally, your friends usually become your sources of work and your source of support. That might be the single best reason to go to film school or a film scoring school -- making friends who plan to work in the industry. That said, I scored maybe three dozen student films, mostly at USC (both graduate and undergraduate). Ten years later, almost none of those people were on IMDB with a credit. 

So, go to university if you want to enrich your life, make friends, and grow up a little. If your parents can pay for it I would definitely go to college, even if it's studying art or history or something. For some people Berklee might be great. IDK. I went to a liberal arts school and loved learning, but graduated with what at the time seemed like a lot of debt, so I initially took a job I hated to pay it back. I did pay it back but man that was not a fun existence.

Good luck.


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## JohnG (Jun 4, 2022)

There is a lot of accurate, actionable advice on this thread. Thanks to @Composerbell @SyMTiK @José Herring and @chillbot especially.

Maybe it should be a sticky?


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## NuNativs (Jun 4, 2022)

Learn how to make really good coffee, YouTube can educate you.


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## SyMTiK (Jun 4, 2022)

NuNativs said:


> Learn how to make really good coffee, YouTube can educate you.


On top of my Berklee degree, I also have studied the art of making espresso and have my own machine and everything. I have trained myself to be the ultimate intern 😂


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## chillbot (Jun 4, 2022)

Composerbell said:


> I’m very against debt. I was lucky/privileged enough to receive my education without crippling debt, but that concern is real.


I'm with you on everything you've said. Because you said "crippling debt" I agree, don't do that. But I'm not against getting into a bit of debt if that's what it takes. At some point you have to figure out what you are going to do and maybe gamble on yourself, otherwise you're just one of 10,000 people with a bedroom studio trying to figure out how to break in.

It comes down to Chillbot's list of self screwery (you can search for on this site). If you want to break into film music do you have to live in LA? No of course you don't. But in a field that is almost impossible to get into why would you want to make it that much harder on yourself. Living in LA is an advantage over people who don't. Going to film/music school is an advantage over those that don't. You need every advantage.

To be clear, a degree does jack shit for you. My reasoning for being pro going to music school is not to get a degree it's to get better than everyone else. For the same reason @Composerbell laid out in many posts.


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## Composerbell (Jun 4, 2022)

@chillbot yeah further on I’m talking a lot about how you need to take on risks for this biz, and taking on debt is a form of risk. But there’s such a thing as foolishly pursuing something (crippling debt) and taking well calculated risks (short term losses, being frugal enough to come out ahead while spending enough to continue investing in your career, debt).

Where the line is is different for everyone. I don’t mean to be judgy, but coming from a wealthy family has huge benefits in this industry - being able to take the schooling with no debt, acquiring equipment as familial gifts, being able to wine and dine or do social activities where wealthy people are likely to hang out are all things that help in this industry. All of those things can be done by a poor person too - it just costs money from someone, and the poor person has to figure out how to make that money first.

Not sure where I was exactly going with that, but I still feel like it was pertinent so I’ll still post it lol


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## El Buhdai (Jun 4, 2022)

For most people, I don't think it's very wise to go to music school. Not in America, and not as part of Gen Z or below. We don't have access to the same economy that generations before us had, and until boomers are out and thousands of high-level positions and legislative opportunities open up, it's doubtful that we will any time soon.

I took a degree in engineering. I get paid well in a 9-5 and spend most of my time (yes, most) outside of work honing my craft with music. The current goal is to build enough of a financial safety net from passive income that I don't need to work, and I can take months-long breaks away from any work not related to music.

There's certainly value to music school and there are times I wish that I went, but for your average Gen Z'er or younger who doesn't come from a family that can send them to college (which most of us don't, I'm just lucky), going to music school is not wise.

Also, if you know where to look, you can find a lot of very valuable things online. I have access to countless scans of original copies of scores from huge films that all of you recognize. I also regularly communicate with and get feedback from people who are currently in music school or have been. I can learn from all of these resources, and didn't have to go through school to get them. I will admit though, none of those contacts will likely lead to gigs or connections.

I've noticed that a lot of people who come from money and/or got through college with little to no debt have high praise for universities. I'm one of those people. I'll be graduating with practically no debt. But the cost of college is simply far too high for me to think any American with average finances should attend for anything related to entertainment.

A full, 4-year college education (complete with useless gen ed) is already a hard sell for me when you consider that half of the people in my field don't even have a degree and are self-taught, and that there are trades like electricians that sometimes far more than I could as a software engineer. College does not have a monopoly on knowledge, nor on opportunity. The only way in which it is guaranteed to outperform its alternatives is in cost.


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## Roger Newton (Jun 5, 2022)

Boomers will never be out. There will always be Boomers whatever your generation. Boomers are just a very handy excuse for Losers.


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## Pincel (Jun 5, 2022)

It's always a complicated subject. Lots of incredible insight here from people that seem to know what they're talking about. In my country I don't think there are any kind of Film Scoring courses anywhere, at least there weren't when I was first starting out, so you're already luckier than I was to even be able to consider that. 

I don't even anything to offer to the discussion, but my 2 cents are that education, and being around somewhat like-minded people, will always be a worthwhile experience, regardless of potential business connections that may or may not come into play. 
I wish I had done that when I was younger, but I thought I was "too cool for school", and now I kind of regret not having had those experiences and learning opportunities in those formative years. 

And like others said, be VERY mindful about potential debt, as that can very easily put you in fragile position for many, many years of your life. 

Best of luck for you!


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## El Buhdai (Jun 5, 2022)

Pincel said:


> I don't even anything to offer to the discussion, but my 2 cents are that education, and being around somewhat like-minded people, will always be a worthwhile experience, regardless of potential business connections that may or may not come into play.


This part was very awesome. College was the first time I felt like I had found my crowd. Surrounded by tech nerds, programmers, gamers, etc.


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## telecode101 (Jun 5, 2022)

Jacob Fanto said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Real dilemma here. I just finished up my first year at a liberal arts college where I am studying music among other things, but I have begun to question whether I should try to get into and transfer to a music school such as Berklee for film scoring specifically (they offer a pretty comprehensive major in both film and game scoring). Though the school I am attending has a fairly good music curriculum, it doesn't really hold a candle to some of the tracks and courses offered at Berklee. It's difficult because film scoring is my dream job but I also enjoy studying other things and rounding out my education. However, I can't help but feel that in such a competitive industry, I am shooting myself in the foot regardless of how much independent study/composition I do by not attending a music school. I'm not making the connections/contacts that I should be and I won't be getting the same degree of music education. Plus, it would be nice to be surrounded by so many musically talented people.
> 
> If I stay at the school I'm at for the next three years, am I really hindering my chances of ever making it in the industry, eventually making a living off of music? Could I perhaps get by if I made use of my summers by attending composition/film scoring programs and making connections there? Perhaps go to a grad program, such as USC Thornton? I'm just so conflicted. What are people's thoughts? On this situation, and music schools in general. It's not so much the degree I care about (as it really doesn't matter at all in this field), but the connections and education I'd get.


Unfortunately, no one can answer that question other than yourself. All roads you take and all decisions you make in your life are your own and you are the one that needs to figure out the cost and benefits of them.

What I can share with you as a edu industry professional is this -- education costs money and its an investment in time and money from you.

One way to go about this is to sit down and write out on a sheet of paper what it will cost you in real costs (tuition, materials, time) to complete this and what else you could have been doing in the meantime in order to achieve your goals. Is your goal of the experience to gain tools and knowledge that will eable you to do a better musical job or is your goal to make industry connections and in roads? Or perhaps your goal the experience of personal fulfillment and achievement in knowing that you leant something and attended something that you really love to do and you achieved it? Those are all valid goals.


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## Prockamanisc (Jun 5, 2022)

The only way to success in business is to have your overhead lower than your income. Student loans will thrash that. You could go to a state school for music and keep your bills low, and make up for any gaps in education via private instruction.


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## Al Maurice (Jun 5, 2022)

Hi @Jacob Fanto -- it sounds as though you have your sights set on an ambition of yours, and you are questioning some of the choices you made.

There are other ways to achieve your objectives without changing schools.

When I went to Uni for my final project, there was nothing of interest to me.

Fortunately I managed to seek out a tutor, who had similar interests to me.

Between us we reached out to another school at my Uni, and via a collaboration we managed to put together a project that was more suitable: this might work for you too.

Perhaps in the future if you consider doing a masters degree as I did, you could consider finding another school at a Uni that covers your future ambitions.

In the meantime good luck with your endeavours, and if necessary be prepared to think outside the box. That shows initiative and is something many employers value.


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## Nico5 (Jun 5, 2022)

From a mostly financial perspective, I suspect that most people paying for music school don’t get a good payback on that investment, simply because there are more graduates than there’s work in the field. 

So the piece of paper with the degree on it, ends up being a very expensive lottery ticket with very low odds of paying off.

If one has lots of spare time and money, buying such a lottery ticket might be fun, but buying such a lottery ticket on a loan may have rather long term negative consequences.


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## sprechstimme (Jun 5, 2022)

Hi Jacob,

Anne-Kathrin Dern discussed this exact topic, and the industry "gatekeepers" so very openly only two weeks ago:


I have classical conservatory training and a university degree in music theory and history. The formal training certainly doesn't hurt, especially if you have to work with trained musicians. But what is it absolutely necessary (given today's daw tools can handle much of the mechanics) is some level of talent to begin with, knowledge of how the industry works, and a lucky break or two. That's my two cents worth. Watch Dern's YouTube. It's a real eye, I mean ear opener imho.

Regards . . .


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## joebaggan (Jun 5, 2022)

What are we talking about now for a Berklee or USC degree - $45-60k per year, so 200k for a 4 year degree? If it's anything near that, it would be insane to pay it unless you're from a wealthy family who can fork it out. You'd be screwed if you had to pay that off while doing whatever internship or entry level music gig. College cost in the U.S. has gotten insane since I went long ago. It's no wonder people are questioning if it's worth it unless you're in STEM.


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## NoamL (Jun 5, 2022)

Composerbell said:


> they thought buying quality samples and taking video courses and watching youtube would deliver the education they needed. It does not. While there is a LOT you can learn online, it is SUPPLEMENTAL and DOES NOT work as a foundation for education.


I agree with you.

Sorry if I gave the impression I was endorsing youtube/webinar courses. _Nearly_ all the ones I have seen are trying to sell people the most basic shortcuts to write short pieces by putting together cliches. Creating a small dopamine hit from "finishing" a piece of music but the results are unsellable. Or else the courses are a random shotgun spray of information (I've seen one SMPTV grad sell a course where he promises to teach "mixing, orchestration, using VIs with expression, and creating a template" all in about 10 hours of video seminars. Wow!).

Regarding youtube, I was thinking of all the great youtubers who upload their transcriptions & score studies for free like Brad Frey, David McCaulley, Dominic Sewell and others. That is a great resource, it doesn't replace learning music theory & orchestration from textbooks, but it's a fun part of continuing self-education alongside doing your own transcriptions & takedowns.

-----

Just 1 more thought to throw into this thread which is that getting into music is not just an artistic career but an *entrepreneurial* career.

You are your own business. You are your own brand. At one point you will face the expenses of building your own workplace and buying your own tools. Even if you are an assistant, you'll have your own LLC the way things work right now. At some point, you'll have to budget for your own assistants or for work delegated to freelancers. You'll have to estimate project costs, and might even take a loss on projects that don't go as planned. You'll have to negotiate contracts and talk to union reps.

Within all of this context a music degree can be repositioned, completely unromantically, as a business start up cost. How is it really helping you, how much does it cost and will it really be worth it.


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## Gothi (Jun 6, 2022)

Greetings
I am glad to read that some people around really make it in the industry by hard work and efforts. I am going to apply a perspective from a music career drop out, and why I have neither regretted spending time at music school nor dropping out. I became fascinated with synths in the age of 14, and at high school I had my first, the JP4. I choose musical-mathematical line at high school and descided I would become a world famous musican. I spend two years doing basic choral harmonization, which really just was classical counterpoint in standard major/minor format. I became so enthralled that I decided to drop out of high school and go to pre-conservatorie schools aimed at getting young talents into the conservatorie or university.

I left highschool, went 2 years at classical school, and 3 years at rhythmical, where I learned classical voiceleading and Jazz theory respectively, including a native african approach to rhythms provided by an Afro-American teacher in Denmark + self chosen studies in modal counterpoint (Fux, Jeppesen) as continuation of my classical training. However, case is that where I lived, musicans are often poor with a lot of problems, and during my studies I had two bandmates, which went down on life each their way. One by ending up at a psychiatric hospital, the other by smoking himself to death on heroin. Under a surface of dreams, people were really struggling with life. At the end of school, reaching for my diploma, I also noted that when I came home from school, I was so exhausted by music that I just needed peace and silence, thus neglecting my own music. When getting my diploma, I had no longer ambitions of entering the conservatorie nor university, and to the idea of being world famous, I finally figured the odds.

So, I went back to shcool and got a similar exam to high school exam and went to university. Today I am a researcher in psychology with special focus on children and young people with similar problems to those of my bandmates, especially when there are ADHD and Autism involved. Apart from being quite meaningful with regard to the destinies of my bandmates and the rest of our music community, it also set my music free from any economical or formal demands. It is entirely our own.

In 2019, I went back to my original environment after 30 years away from it and found an old friend completely beaten up from a life at the bottom of society. However, we went to the same rhythmical music school, tho at different times, and he could still play classical guitar with some efforts. I began visiting him frequently to get him on his feets. We jammed for two years to heal, and one day, magic happened, and Tribe of Hofund was born. Tho, I am not world famous, we have released an "album" on soundcloud, and recieved very kind feedback from people. A few words of appreciation from at least one listener are all we need to feel it is worth it. My years at music school will never be wasted. It is all there in our Electro Folk; the native inspired odd or compound meters, the modal and tonal counterpoint, and not at least the synth driven electro base that started the whole thing. So, from my perspective, you cannot predict the future, but if you really love music, I cannot imagine any venture into it wouldn't be to your benefit whether it ends in a job or not.

I shall end this long-A post with a suitable qoute from Fux' Gradus Ad Parnassum, where the fictive teacher Aloysius (refers to Palestrina, really) tests his fictive student Joseph's motivation:



> Aloys. — Perhaps the hope of future riches and possessions induces you to choose this life? If this is the case, believe me you must change your mind; not Plutus but Apollo rules Parnassus. Whoever wants riches must take another path.
> 
> Joseph. — No, certainly not. Please be sure that I have no other object than to pursue my love of music, without any thought of gain. I remember also that my teacher often told me one should be content with a simple way of life and strive rather for proficiency and a good name than for wealth, for virtue is its own reward.



FWIW.

Freya's blessing to all and happy music making
Gothi
ToH


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## rgames (Jun 6, 2022)

chillbot said:


> and even recommend going into debt for it if you have to


The reason it's a bad idea is because you don't have to. Getting a degree doesn't have to mean building up a bunch of debt. And getting an education and getting a degree aren't necessarily the same thing.

Work while you learn. People in the humanities seem to think that working and getting a degree are mutually exclusive. They're not.

One of the reasons those STEM grads have such low debt is that's exactly what they do. About a third of STEM undergraduates and about 100% of STEM graduates are working while going to school. It's the trade school mentality, and it's the basis of most STEM-type curricula (though much less so with the M part of STEM). And one of the reasons they're so gainfully employed after graduation is because they graduate with real-world experience and real-world connections under their belts. Most of them are hired full-time by the companies that paid them part-time while they were in school. Some of them figure out they don't like the gig and/or aren't very good at it and quit, thereby avoiding more debt for a career that's not going to happen.

STEM grads don't build their connections and experience in school. They build them at the workplace while they're in school.

People with musical aspirations can do the same. Get an assistant job while you're getting a degree and pay for school while you work (and build up a bit of debt if necessary). If you can't get a job as a 20 year-old assistant your prospects for getting a meaningful job upon graduation are vastly lower. So let the market forces play out before you pile up a bunch of debt.

The response is, of course, "Well, there just aren't enough music jobs to do that."

EXACTLY. That's the point.

I think formal music education is a good idea for anyone who wants to do film music, though I think a two-year course is plenty. Regardless of duration it's a bad idea to have it incur as much debt as a mortgage. And not because debt is bad but because it's not necessary.

rgames


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## Arbee (Jun 6, 2022)

I'd suggest with arts careers in general that the first requirement is the sheer will to pursue your goal, second is enough self-awareness to objectively monitor progress and fill in gaps as you go with formal or informal education, and third is the communication skills to network yourself.

Once you head off on those three points you'll soon know if you have a true passion to justify a big study commitment or just a keen interest, and you could save yourself a lot of financial and emotional heartache if you discover it's the latter. Just my 2c.


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## A.Dern (Jun 6, 2022)

Just to put some numbers to this: The high end schools charge indeed between $45k to $60k per year in tuition and then of course you have living costs on top of that. My first salary as an assistant was $12 per hour, no overtime pay, no benefits. So that came out at $1920 per month, or $23k per year. Now take out a good 20% in taxes. Left me with $1536 per month. The average one bedroom rent in LA at the time was $1600 per month. I was way below the poverty line. Later I got a raise to $30k per year and then $35k per year. This left me (in a higher tax bracket) with roughly $1900 per month and $2216 per month respectively. Meanwhile rents have now risen to an average of $1800 to $2000 per month. This was still below the poverty line three years into my career.

Essentially, while I was an assistant full-time, I was paid the equivalent of one month's rent. Obviously you can't put 100% of your income towards rent so either you share a one bedroom apartment with three other people crammed together or - like me - you find low income housing (which unfortunately is often in dangerous run down areas save for a few locations).

Anyone suggesting you can work as a full-time assistant and put yourself through school by doing that doesn't know the realities of that job. It's often a 60-80 hour per week commitment and it often doesn't even cover living expenses. Likewise, I think it borders on criminal that schools don't put salary expectations next to their tuition fees. Imagine coming into this profession with anywhere between $100k and $250k in debt and your first salary is basically minimum wage. This isn't to say that some composers don't compensate their assistants fairly but even then it's gonna be a struggle to pay that debt back. Also, scoring indie films on your own doesn't fare much better. A lot of them pay anywhere between $2k and $15k at the beginning of your career so you'd still come out at around the same annual amount.

I'm genuinely glad I got most of my education in Europe tuition free and the German student loan I took out to cover living costs within the EU was extremely forgiving (no interest charge ever, no payback in the first 5 years, nothing over 10k needs to be paid back, small installments based on your income, if you pay back in one big lump sum as I did after 5 years you they gift you a percentage as a thank you).


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## rgames (Jun 7, 2022)

A.Dern said:


> It's often a 60-80 hour per week commitment


Same for those STEM students.


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## edhamilton (Jun 8, 2022)

Let's break things down a bit differently.

Film Scoring is a skill set that sits on top of your core musicianship.
So, how are your composition skill? Where are you at as a player?

Now is the time to become the best player/musician/composer you can be. Just pure musicanship.
Once you start working, time for shedding will be really hard to come by.

Cart/Horse situation.
Find the cheapest music school with top level players. UNT always a great option and there are others.
Get good. REALLY good. Cheap. Pay private teachers for extra lessons (costs a fraction of what your school will bill you for those same lessons).
The "film composer" skill set can wait, and I'm not altogether convinced its not best learned under fire in the real world.

On top of whatever school you choose - YOU are responsible for seeking out high level teachers in addition to school. No school will make you a complete musician. Thats your responsibility.
And no way you get there in 4 years without intense personal shedding and a massive amount of gigging/writing/recording etc.

There is no hurry. The only time restriction is that right now, you have some (Time that is).
You will soon have professional commitments and zero shed time.
Just shed. Shed everything. Transcribe anything that perks your ears up.
Be as unique in your curation of what you transcribe as you can be. Its what will make you unique in a sea of sameness.

Attempt being an artist before you study as a craftsman because Artists ARE the best craftsman. Aim higher.

Want to get a gig? Be the best musician they can find. Be the best musician in the room. 
Be the most interesting, fully realized version of yourself.
Everything after that is details that you can learn from others.

my 2cents.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 8, 2022)

edhamilton said:


> Want to get a gig? Be the best musician they can find. Be the best musician in the room.


As much as I want to believe that, I feel it doesn't really matter in the world of film composer competition. IMO, the #1 factor in getting the gig, is to be the best marketer in the room, the one who has the best sales pitch for a given production. Of course, you need to be a great musician, but I'm not convinced that it's as big a factor as many want to believe.


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## nolotrippen (Jun 8, 2022)

I took an extension course at UCLA. Wasn't too expensive (1980s) and you got to hear your music played live by whatever ensemble was available that week (you knew in advance). You even got to conduct your music. Cheap experience at a Los Angeles based school can't really be beat. Check to see if that kind of thing is still available.


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## edhamilton (Jun 8, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> As much as I want to believe that, I feel it doesn't really matter in the world of film composer competition. IMO, the #1 factor in getting the gig, is to be the best marketer in the room, the one who has the best sales pitch for a given production. Of course, you need to be a great musician, but I'm not convinced that it's as big a factor as many want to believe.


Yeah, Totally understand that, and feel the pain and frustration of the truth in your post.
Getting the gig as the HOD composer is as much a social, political, sales skill set as a musical one.

I'm talking about getting the gig that begins to put you in the circles to even start honing those other skills. Which means working for other musicians/composers.
Who are they going to hire = best musician, the most musical person they can find (that also has the needed skills which at that point are a daw and kontakt).

99% of aspiring film composers are going to end up doing something else, even if still in music.
So I keep landing on the idea of just being the best musician you can be, as early as you can be.
Its really all you can control. (and maybe learn how to be a marketer too ....


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## rgames (Jun 8, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> As much as I want to believe that, I feel it doesn't really matter in the world of film composer competition. IMO, the #1 factor in getting the gig, is to be the best marketer in the room, the one who has the best sales pitch for a given production. Of course, you need to be a great musician, but I'm not convinced that it's as big a factor as many want to believe.


I think the answer is: it depends. The composers I most admire were also extremely talented performers with pro-level chops on some instrument. They could sit down with any orchestra or band and be perfectly comfortable. My own background is as a performer, though, so maybe that's why I admire them so much.

However, as of ~20 years ago there appear to be a small but increasing number of people getting gigs who have little if anything in the way of performance chops. And quite a large number who have marginal chops at best.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that - I judge the music on its own merits, not on how or by whom it was created. But looking back through the history of music I don't really find anyone successful as a composer who was not also an accomplished musician. That's a recent phenomenon as far as I can tell, most likely aided by music technology.

Apropos of this thread, you might need to make the decision to focus on composition much earlier in your career and adjust your education accordingly.

And yes, the time available for maintaining your chops will diminish quickly if you start to focus on composition. 15 years ago I could still perform the Rite of Spring. I don't think I could do that today, at least not at a level that someone would pay to hear...

rgames

(PS - also apropos of the thread, the best way to learn orchestration is to play with an orchestra).


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## A.Dern (Jun 9, 2022)

rgames said:


> However, as of ~20 years ago there appear to be a small but increasing number of people getting gigs who have little if anything in the way of performance chops. And quite a large number who have marginal chops at best.
> 
> I don't think there's anything wrong with that - I judge the music on its own merits, not on how or by whom it was created. But looking back through the history of music I don't really find anyone successful as a composer who was not also an accomplished musician. That's a recent phenomenon as far as I can tell, most likely aided by music technology.


I think this has little to do with technology and more so with the way this profession is entered into these days. This job was not something people would seek out to do just a few decades ago. There weren't many educational resources and the job could only be done in about 3 locations in the world (because without internet and technology you're physically tied to where the action happens). Most film composers from those generations "accidentally" became film composers. They had no intention whatsoever of having a career in this, they just stumbled into it. They were either session musicians or playing in bands. Maybe they were helping out with arrangements and orchestrations here and there, maybe with conducting every now and then, and eventually they'd enter into the composing role. That doesn't really happen much anymore in that way. There are some recent film composers who were independent artists first but overall, most film composers of the past 15-20 years specifically set out to write music for media without the detour of being a musician / arranger / orchestrator / conductor first and hoping for the best.


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## A.Dern (Jun 9, 2022)

As far as getting the gig goes, this can't be distilled into singular items. The thing we all have the most control over is honing our craft, practicing communication skills, understanding movies and storytelling, etc.

But that alone usually isn't enough. Other factors include marketing, location, making people trust you, making people like you, having an agent / manager, being in the right spot at the right time, being recommended by peers, having prior experience, having assisted composer X, having the right passport / nationality, other political stuff (race, gender, sexuality), being friends with X, being related to X, having done a favor for X (e.g. coming in to fix a score that was going south)... the list of reasons why someone can or can't do a gig is very long. It can be as simple as "You were our first choice but we need a composer from this particular region so we can get this tax break".

The best thing is to focus on those elements that we can control, put ourselves out there and then hope that the rest eventually falls into place as well.


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## LamaRose (Jun 9, 2022)

No one gives a fork where you've been... only where you are...press play now.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Jun 9, 2022)

Imo, good skills + great ability to work with others will always trump great skills + good ability to work with others. It's a relations industry more than ever before, so while having a solid set of skills is fundamental, no one wants to hire an arrogant, self-righteous person even if they're the very best.


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