# Newbie question about reverb sends



## Mornats (Sep 1, 2021)

Reverb is one of those things that seems to work well in other people's tracks but I can never get to do what I want. I typically put reverb (Valhalla Room is my most used) on a separate bus at 100% wet and use sends to send instrument tracks to it. I use Reaper and the send defaults to 0.0db and I can lower this for, presumably unless I've understood it wrong, less reverb for that instrument track.

So my question is, is leaving the reverb send at 0.0db the right thing to do or is it the norm to apply way less? I guess I'm looking for a rough guide to what my default should be although I appreciate the answer may well be "it depends"! As an example, if I were to put Valhalla Room on a track as an insert I'd typically set it to be between 20-25% wet to sound ok to my duff ears. I'm not sure what this would translate into when using a send.


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## jim2b (Sep 1, 2021)

You could duplicate the track, and use one with the send and the other with the insert.

If you use the insert @25%, try to match the the send track to that sound.(switch back and forth by muting).

That should give you a pretty good reference for your send levels.

Good luck!

Jim


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## Mornats (Sep 1, 2021)

jim2b said:


> You could duplicate the track, and use one with the send and the other with the insert.
> 
> If you use the insert @25%, try to match the the send track to that sound.(switch back and forth by muting).
> 
> ...


Oh nice, that's a cracking idea, thanks!


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## Trash Panda (Sep 1, 2021)

You can control the reverb volume as a send a few ways. Using the send volume from each instrument (do this pre-fader if you want the send to act as your wet/dry control) and you can control the overall reverb level with the reverb track fader.

Think of levels as your wet/dry mix: -18 dB of instrument and -18 dB of reverb would be a 50% dry/wet ratio.

Great way to find the right amount is to leave the reverb volume fader at 0, start your send at -inf and slowly raise it until the reverb effect becomes obvious. Then back of the send amount by around 3-6 dB. You’ll know you have it right when muting the reverb makes the instrument sound smaller, but not reverberant when you unmute the reverb.


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## averystemmler (Sep 1, 2021)

Mornats said:


> Reverb is one of those things that seems to work well in other people's tracks but I can never get to do what I want. I typically put reverb (Valhalla Room is my most used) on a separate bus at 100% wet and use sends to send instrument tracks to it. I use Reaper and the send defaults to 0.0db and I can lower this for, presumably unless I've understood it wrong, less reverb for that instrument track.
> 
> So my question is, is leaving the reverb send at 0.0db the right thing to do or is it the norm to apply way less? I guess I'm looking for a rough guide to what my default should be although I appreciate the answer may well be "it depends"! As an example, if I were to put Valhalla Room on a track as an insert I'd typically set it to be between 20-25% wet to sound ok to my duff ears. I'm not sure what this would translate into when using a send.



The wet signal of some reverbs are quieter than others (Valhalla Room happens to be one of the louder ones. I think I've read that there's some kind of equal-power compensation happening inside), so your mileage may vary. But, assuming the output level of your reverb is equal to the dry signal, you can think of a (post fader) send at +-0dB as 50% wet, since the wet signal and dry signal are equal. Mathematically, -3dB is half of that, and thus 25%, but our perception of loudness is pesky and people can hear "halving" as anything from -3dB to -10dB. 
Especially with the added psychoacoustic complications that always come with reverb. So, as you predicted, it depends. 

Traditionally, 50% wet is quite a lot. But I frequently run acoustically-deprived samples wetter than that, when trying to blend them back into a scoring stage or something. There are a few ways to accomplish this. Pre fader sends are one. I personally use post fader sends, but just send the dry signal off to it's own parallel "dry bus." If i want something to be >50% wet, I set that wet send to +-0dB and lower the dry send instead. The track fader remains the overall level, and can be automated without changing the relative wet/dry balance.


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## Jeremy Gillam (Sep 1, 2021)

I use Valhalla Room too and for orchestral longs my sends are usually between -8 and -15. For harmonics that might be closer to 0. For shorts I might use a bit less, -15 to -20, and also use the same hall but shorten the decay time of the reverb. Your mileage my vary!

edit: I’m usually going for a “produced” but not unreal sound.


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## Mornats (Sep 2, 2021)

Thanks all, this has been super useful to me. I've been playing around with all your suggestions and I'm getting somewhere with it now so thanks


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## Harry (Sep 8, 2021)

averystemmler said:


> The wet signal of some reverbs are quieter than others (Valhalla Room happens to be one of the louder ones. I think I've read that there's some kind of equal-power compensation happening inside), so your mileage may vary. But, assuming the output level of your reverb is equal to the dry signal, you can think of a (post fader) send at +-0dB as 50% wet, since the wet signal and dry signal are equal. Mathematically, -3dB is half of that, and thus 25%, but our perception of loudness is pesky and people can hear "halving" as anything from -3dB to -10dB.
> Especially with the added psychoacoustic complications that always come with reverb. So, as you predicted, it depends.
> 
> Traditionally, 50% wet is quite a lot. But I frequently run acoustically-deprived samples wetter than that, when trying to blend them back into a scoring stage or something. There are a few ways to accomplish this. Pre fader sends are one. I personally use post fader sends, but just send the dry signal off to it's own parallel "dry bus." If i want something to be >50% wet, I set that wet send to +-0dB and lower the dry send instead. The track fader remains the overall level, and can be automated without changing the relative wet/dry balance.


So, if you are using a reverb as a send, and the send level is at 0, then that's a 50-50 mix? What if we want to use the reverb at higher than 50%? Is pushing the send greater than 0 going to work? Surely this isn't the same as using reverb as an insert - if reverb as an insert is set to 75%, then the signal is 25% dry and 75% wet --- whereas in a send its still got the 100% dry signal in it ... ?


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## Trash Panda (Sep 8, 2021)

Harry said:


> So, if you are using a reverb as a send, and the send level is at 0, then that's a 50-50 mix? What if we want to use the reverb at higher than 50%? Is pushing the send greater than 0 going to work? Surely this isn't the same as using reverb as an insert - if reverb as an insert is set to 75%, then the signal is 25% dry and 75% wet --- whereas in a send its still got the 100% dry signal in it ... ?


If you want a higher reverb mix than dry mix, you would set up your send as a pre-fader send, then turn down the fader on the instrument track/channel while leaving the reverb send at full.


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## Dietz (Sep 8, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> If you want a higher reverb mix than dry mix, you would set up your send as a pre-fader send, then turn down the fader on the instrument track/channel while leaving the reverb send at full.


While this will work as long as your faders don't move, but it will wreak havoc on your mix as soon as you use volume automation.


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## averystemmler (Sep 8, 2021)

Harry said:


> So, if you are using a reverb as a send, and the send level is at 0, then that's a 50-50 mix? What if we want to use the reverb at higher than 50%? Is pushing the send greater than 0 going to work? Surely this isn't the same as using reverb as an insert - if reverb as an insert is set to 75%, then the signal is 25% dry and 75% wet --- whereas in a send its still got the 100% dry signal in it ... ?



Well, it's all a matter of relative levels. If dry level = wet level, then it's 50% dry, 50% wet, regardless of whether it's in series or parallel. The only difference will be the overall, combined level (more on that at the bottom).

If you boost the send to greater than the dry level, then it'll be greater than 50% wet. Of course, while there's any dry signal coming through, the result will never be 100% wet, but you could theoretically get to 99.99~% wet, if you had the headroom. For sanity's sake (and because most DAWs don't allow you to push a fader over +12dB or so), I think reducing the dry level below 0dB usually makes much more sense than increasing the send level above 0dB. The Pre-fader send configuration is one solution, as is the parallel dry method I mentioned. Or, if you're pushing it over 50% for a specific effect, maybe an insert is the easiest solution after all.

I've avoided being any more precise than that, because every reverb's output will be somewhat different. A reverb send at +-0dB may or may not be equal to the dry signal. Some reverbs are louder, some are quieter, some simulate parallel routing internally, others subtract from the dry while adding the wet, others increase the output level to match the input, some offer internal dynamics processing, etc. Personally, I just adjust the send level by ear anyways, so it's a non-issue unless I'm trying to compare different reverbs.


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## Harry (Sep 8, 2021)

Thank you ... great couple of answers.


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## JohnG (Sep 8, 2021)

Mornats said:


> is leaving the reverb send at 0.0db the right thing to do or is it the norm to apply way less?


Way less.

Some of my reverb sends are relatively wet, like minus 7, but some are minus 20 or more.

*What is the Source?*

If the source material already has delays and reverb and what-not, as would be the case with a synth patch with its own FX, maybe you don't want any additional reverb at all, so it's set to infinity (no send). If, by contrast, it's "ethereal choir," you might jack the send way up to create a cathedral sound, so maybe minus 4 or minus 5.

*Key Reverb Settings

Decay -- *There are a couple of other settings that are rather important. One would be the "decay" time, which can range all over. If you want a cathedral, maybe it's 3.5-4.0 seconds. If you want a chamber sound, maybe it's 1.5-2.0. A pretty typical number is about 2.5 for soundtrack "base case."

*Low Cut/ High Cut -- *Most of the time you don't want the entire dry signal hitting the reverb. You slice off the high range and the low range so you don't produce either ringing (too much high reverb) or mud (too much low). A not atypical range would be to cut starting anything below, say, 80 Hz and anything above 4.0 kHz, but you see ranges wider and tighter. Fortunately, nearly all reverbs can do this themselves -- they have built in both the high pass and low pass -- so you don't have to EQ all the sends. Just poke through your reverb's settings and you'll find all this.

Main thing? Use your ears!! Don't trust manuals and Youtube videos. T/here are a lot of people who express inaccuracies with lots of confidence.


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## mscp (Sep 8, 2021)

Mornats said:


> So my question is, is leaving the reverb send at 0.0db the right thing to do or is it the norm to apply way less?


Neither because "room" ambience is a subjective thing. My suggestion is: learn about early and late reflections, absorption coefficients, and spatial data. Bit boring, but not as long winded as it may sound. Once you have these things covered, think about what kind of "room" you want your instruments to be placed in, and how much room you want in your mix. Everest is a great reference for acoustics. It's well worth studying a bit of it before dealing with reverbs.


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## Mornats (Sep 8, 2021)

JohnG said:


> Way less.
> 
> Some of my reverb sends are relatively wet, like minus 7, but some are minus 20 or more.
> 
> ...


Many thanks, this is very much appreciated. This is just the level of detail that is really useful to me. My go-to reverb is Valhalla Room so no eq controls but I recall reading about the "Abbey Road technique" for reverb and I've had an eq sitting before my reverb for a while now.


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## Mornats (Sep 8, 2021)

mscp said:


> Neither because "room" ambience is a subjective thing. My suggestion is: learn about early and late reflections, absorption coefficients, and spatial data. Bit boring, but not as long winded as it may sound. Once you have these things covered, think about what kind of "room" you want your instruments to be placed in, and how much room you want in your mix. Everest is a great reference for acoustics. It's well worth studying a bit of it before dealing with reverbs.


Now this sounds like the next level up for me but I'm a fairly new parent and my mental capacity for doing much more than just staying awake is rather diminished! I'll take a little dig into it when I get the chance.


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## JohnG (Sep 8, 2021)

I think this "reflections" tangent is a waste of time for a new composer. I have watched people wrestle with this for decades and I don't think it improves their chances of landing a gig, or making a good piece of music, one iota.

_Neither because "room" ambience is a subjective thing. My suggestion is: learn about early and late reflections, absorption coefficients, and spatial data. Bit boring, but not as long winded as it may sound. Once you have these things covered, think about what kind of "room" you want your instruments to be placed in, and how much room you want in your mix. Everest is a great reference for acoustics. It's well worth studying a bit of it before dealing with reverbs._

Just dial up some reverb that sounds "good enough" to you.

If you want to study something, look at the scores of people whose work you admire, or listen very carefully to contemporary track whose tone you want to emulate, and get writing.


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## Justin L. Franks (Sep 11, 2021)

Mornats said:


> My go-to reverb is Valhalla Room so no eq controls


Valhalla Room has a high cut slider. There are also controls for letting the bass or high frequencies in the reverb tail decay faster (or slower), the "Bass Mult" and "Bass Xover" knobs and the "High Mult" and "High Xover" knobs in the "Late" options. How these knobs work is described on *the "ValhallaRoom: The Late controls" page* on Valhalla's website.


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## Mornats (Sep 11, 2021)

Justin L. Franks said:


> Valhalla Room has a high cut slider. There are also controls for letting the bass or high frequencies in the reverb tail decay faster (or slower), the "Bass Mult" and "Bass Xover" knobs and the "High Mult" and "High Xover" knobs in the "Late" options. How these knobs work is described on *the "ValhallaRoom: The Late controls" page* on Valhalla's website.


Oh to be honest a lot of the info on that page went over my head so I never related it to EQ controls. I'll give it another look and will try and play around with it too. Thanks!


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## Justin L. Franks (Sep 11, 2021)

Mornats said:


> Oh to be honest a lot of the info on that page went over my head so I never related it to EQ controls. I'll give it another look and will try and play around with it too. Thanks!


They're not exactly EQ controls, but it can have some similar effects.


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