# An Opinion On Developer Complaints



## procreative

I have watched the degeneration of many initially valid complaints into slanging matches on here and just wanted to make some calm observations.

I think developers need to take one thing on board.

In an attempt to (a) sell their product and (b) pride in their creations, many developers make very polished walkthroughs eulogising about their fantastic product.

Sometimes they use demos made by some of the best writers/programmers (which may be themselves sometimes). No problem there as we want to hear it sound its best. However I think sometimes it gets forgotten that some of the more impressive features such as legato, require a fair bit of tech knowledge and massaging.

Thats where some users become frustrated as they do not realise they cannot just plug n play every patch and get perfect results. It takes a bit more work and then there is the technical side of hardware causing issues.

Bottom line, be respectful to developers. In turn please all developers understand that your polished sales pitches can sometimes lead to false expectations and that the tricks you know to get the most out of your products may not be obvious to users.

Me personally I tend to email the developer first, however some developers refuse to address issues or even acknowledge they exist. So sometimes users post here to get confirmation they are not alone and that issues might be not user specific.


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## Stiltzkin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_yJFLvmjJY


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## mc_deli

In b4 the lock

But yeah, from a newbie perspective, it is not pretty. I agree with the OP. 

First week on VI Control, long time abuser of well known gear fora. To an outsider this weekend's antics are quite extreme for a manufacturer/developer IMHO.

The customer is always right (in public).

Great forum. You people really have something special here. o-[][]-o


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## José Herring

I missed most of the hoopla but i can guess what happened.
I have a different take on it. Some people aren't that good and they take it out on their products. I am not saying that I haven't done exactly that. Just that i heard a mockup that Rob did using ik philharmonic i think and it was stellar. I immediately had two thoughts 1) I will never take the effort to mockup something that is on that level and 2) you cannot blame the product for your lack of effort or skill if somebody can take an outdated inferior product and do a stellar job.

So people need to quit their public bitching and buckle down. So instead of blah, blah whining about that you can't sound as good as the demos, either work on sounding better or realize that you won't or can't do what it takes. There are many ways to make music. Rather than whine, just find another tool.

So the dev has every right to fight back if some hack goes public about problems with their products. Again I am not above it all. Just try to keep it in perspective. Maybe it's you that is sucking and not the library. That is how i think now.


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## Carles

In the graphic world it's easier to understand what a product is but certainly on Virtual Instruments we tend to think differently by mistake.

I've been also in that point were trying to write something, and realize that it doesn't sound good.
Then you listen to product demos and when finding some amazing results, as soon as you save some money you quickly go to purchase the instruments thinking that you've acquired the ability to sound like this or that demo.

Obviously it won't happen. If you write something not expressed properly the virtual instrument won't read the expression that you have in mind and will apply the results magically.

Then (after spending in many libraries) is when one realize that the instruments are just tools, just resources.

If something doesn't works as you've expected, it's obvious that is not the instruments fault, but you. One have to learn instead how to properly orchestrate and play (programming in my case) such instruments first.

So, a very clear simile in the graphic world would be a painter.
Nobody expect that buying the latest Wacom tablet it will give you the ability to paint like God automatically. Or brushes with hair from this or that animal, or a given brand of acrilic... hey. these are just tools, if you want to do good paintings you have to learn to paint first, simply as that.

That you'll feel more comfortable with this or that brand of painting material is not related at all with your skills as painter.
First at all you have to be a -painter-, and later choose the tools that best fit to you. No brush will do the job for you.

Carles


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## windshore

I think this point is a non-starter.

If you were to listen to a demo of a microphone and preamp that was being demonstrated by Stevie Wonder, .. would you then assume that that mic and preamp would make you sound like Stevie Wonder?


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## Astronaut FX

Nothing that has been stated here is entirely incorrect. However, there is another side to it that I find interesting.

When I buy a car, I know that there was a team of designers that spent months if not years pouring their heart and soul into the design of that automobile. But if after I've purchased it, as the consumer, I can count on being able to take it back to the dealership to have it serviced if something is not working as I expect. And I expect to be treated with respect, even if the problem is user error.

Can you imagine how bizarre it would be if when I took it in for service, a designer came to the counter and started ranting at me that I don't know what the hell I'm talking about, and that I'm clearly a shitty driver and must be doing it wrong, and do I have any idea how much time they spent designing it?

But yet ,here, that behavior is perfectly acceptable from library developers. If you ask me, some of them either need to hire some PR folks to handle their public interactions, or take a page from Eric from Spectrasonics. Venture on over to Amazon and you shouldn't have to search too hard to find an exchange of comments between Eric and a customer during which Eric showed amazing patience and professionalism with this guy, who truly only had an axe to grind.


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## DMarr82

I think the key word here is respect. No developer likes to have their products bashed, but if the question is asked respectfully, I don't think any developer would mind. "Hey - this isn't working for me here - what am I doing wrong? How do you guys deal with this?" I don't think Paul, Christian and Andy would mind so much if it's that. But when they, and someone else on the team explains that a user is doing something wrong, explains the right way to do it and the user comes back with, "So obviously, the programming is at fault..." - that's just downright disrespectful.


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## kb123

Tone Deaf @ Sun Mar 01 said:


> Nothing that has been stated here is entirely incorrect. However, there is another side to it that I find interesting.
> 
> When I buy a car, I know that there was a team of designers that spent months if not years pouring their heart and soul into the design of that automobile. But if after I've purchased it, as the consumer, I can count on being able to take it back to the dealership to have it serviced if something is not working as I expect. And I expect to be treated with respect, even if the problem is user error.
> 
> Can you imagine how bizarre it would be if when I took it in for service, a designer came to the counter and started ranting at me that I don't know what the hell I'm talking about, and that I'm clearly a shitty driver and must be doing it wrong, and do I have any idea how much time they spent designing it?
> 
> But yet ,here, that behavior is perfectly acceptable from library developers. If you ask me, some of them either need to hire some PR folks to handle their public interactions, or take a page from Eric from Spectrasonics. Venture on over to Amazon and you shouldn't have to search too hard to find an exchange of comments between Eric and a customer during which Eric showed amazing patience and professionalism with this guy, who truly only had an axe to grind.




Not wishing to flog the proverbial dead horse, but the thread that this one relates to showed cases where old versions of the software were being use, and where a user configurable option was not switched off. In those circumstances it is understandable that the developer wants to defend their product, when it is being made to look substandard, when it is nothing of the sort


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## Astronaut FX

kb123 @ Sun Mar 01 said:


> Tone Deaf @ Sun Mar 01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing that has been stated here is entirely incorrect. However, there is another side to it that I find interesting.
> 
> When I buy a car, I know that there was a team of designers that spent months if not years pouring their heart and soul into the design of that automobile. But if after I've purchased it, as the consumer, I can count on being able to take it back to the dealership to have it serviced if something is not working as I expect. And I expect to be treated with respect, even if the problem is user error.
> 
> Can you imagine how bizarre it would be if when I took it in for service, a designer came to the counter and started ranting at me that I don't know what the hell I'm talking about, and that I'm clearly a shitty driver and must be doing it wrong, and do I have any idea how much time they spent designing it?
> 
> But yet ,here, that behavior is perfectly acceptable from library developers. If you ask me, some of them either need to hire some PR folks to handle their public interactions, or take a page from Eric from Spectrasonics. Venture on over to Amazon and you shouldn't have to search too hard to find an exchange of comments between Eric and a customer during which Eric showed amazing patience and professionalism with this guy, who truly only had an axe to grind.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not wishing to flog the proverbial dead horse, but the thread that this one relates to showed cases where old versions of the software were being use, and where a user configurable option was not switched off. In those circumstances it is understandable that the developer wants to defend their product, when it is being made to look substandard, when it is nothing of the sort
Click to expand...


I'm aware of that. But the immediate tendency to "defend their product" rather than "educate their customer" is what is at the crux of the matter to me. Swallow your freakin' pride and take advantage of the opportunity to educate your customer, while simultaneously showing your potential customers that you are approachable and are willing to help.

Can you not see the subtle, yet impactful difference here?


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## jleckie

josejherring @ Sun Mar 01 said:


> Some people aren't that good and they take it out on their products.



This. 

But I do think some devs need thicker skin. (which is surprising they don't on forums like these as many devs are composers themselves and if THAT line of work doesn't help grow a thick skin, nothing will imo). ^>|


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## Daryl

jleckie @ Mon Mar 02 said:


> josejherring @ Sun Mar 01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some people aren't that good and they take it out on their products.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This.
> 
> But I do think some devs need thicker skin. (which is surprising they don't on forums like these as many devs are composers themselves and if THAT line of work doesn't help grow a thick skin, nothing will imo). ^>|
Click to expand...

I agree. Not to rag on anyone in particular, but it seems to me that this is just part of the age old problem; that composers are often lousy businessmen and women. As most of the developers are also composers, it's not surprising that they take offence when someone publicly insults their work. Someone with a good business head would be able to let it go, and play the politician, but for a composer, it is a bit like telling a mother (or father, for that matter) that their baby is ugly. No matter what the truth is, no parent wants to hear that. :lol: 

East West has got it right, in my view. Hire a 3rd party to field such things on forums that you can't control.

D


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## kb123

Tone Deaf @ Sun Mar 01 said:


> kb123 @ Sun Mar 01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tone Deaf @ Sun Mar 01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing that has been stated here is entirely incorrect. However, there is another side to it that I find interesting.
> 
> When I buy a car, I know that there was a team of designers that spent months if not years pouring their heart and soul into the design of that automobile. But if after I've purchased it, as the consumer, I can count on being able to take it back to the dealership to have it serviced if something is not working as I expect. And I expect to be treated with respect, even if the problem is user error.
> 
> Can you imagine how bizarre it would be if when I took it in for service, a designer came to the counter and started ranting at me that I don't know what the hell I'm talking about, and that I'm clearly a shitty driver and must be doing it wrong, and do I have any idea how much time they spent designing it?
> 
> But yet ,here, that behavior is perfectly acceptable from library developers. If you ask me, some of them either need to hire some PR folks to handle their public interactions, or take a page from Eric from Spectrasonics. Venture on over to Amazon and you shouldn't have to search too hard to find an exchange of comments between Eric and a customer during which Eric showed amazing patience and professionalism with this guy, who truly only had an axe to grind.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not wishing to flog the proverbial dead horse, but the thread that this one relates to showed cases where old versions of the software were being use, and where a user configurable option was not switched off. In those circumstances it is understandable that the developer wants to defend their product, when it is being made to look substandard, when it is nothing of the sort
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm aware of that. But the immediate tendency to "defend their product" rather than "educate their customer" is what is at the crux of the matter to me. Swallow your freakin' pride and take advantage of the opportunity to educate your customer, while simultaneously showing your potential customers that you are approachable and are willing to help.
> 
> Can you not see the subtle, yet impactful difference here?
Click to expand...


With respect, the developers team went out of their way to educate those with issues on that very thread in the face of a great deal of hostility. Perhaps you should read the thread and the summary made by admin at the end?


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## NYC Composer

Also getting in before the lock (maybe):

It's either "Sample Talk", the free, unfettered, occasionally rude but fairly civil place in general, open to all to air their opinions, or it isn't. The recent lock and general mod statements have set clear limits, and now, sadly , this is a different place than it once was.

Ladies and Gentlemen, feel free to say anything about a product or a set of products, as long as it's positive.

I've been a vociferous advocate for and steady contributor to this forum for 6 years, and I'm very sadly disconcerted to see things go this way. I feel the locked thread had some unfortunate moments but actually cleared up some important things for me. If the reaction to reasonably (subjective, I know) civil criticism is to be scorn, locking and banning and developers are to be treated as sacred cows, I guess I'll watch from the wings. Frederick, please PM if you'd like me to leave completely, as I'd certainly honor that request. It's your forum.


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## Echoes in the Attic

I was actually really surprised by the other thread. But not because of any rudeness on the part of anyone with anything critical to say. It was those that jumped to the defence of Spitfire that I found rather over the top.

Anyone with any criticism was reasonably polite as far as I could tell. While there was some user error, so what? Patrick repeatedly said he loved Spitfire products and was heavily invested in them, and also freely admitted that he was wrong and did not fully understand the programming that was causing his problems. Guy was perfectly reasonable as well. In fact just about everyone with any criticism were extremely respectful and also in the same posts heaped praise on them, except for the one person had an unfortunate opinion that much of the content of Earth sounded similar and was rather blunt about it. Again so what, it was his opinion. It wasn't a commercial announcement thread. Can people not give their honest impression of a library? Sometimes negative impressions are caused by user error and when publicly brought up, they are usually set straight. That's a good thing as well. The whole thing was actually kind of productive and wouldn't have been controversial if no tempers or defensiveness had reared up.

I'm sorry but the defensiveness and lashing out of those defending Spitfire was the only unfortunate part. Spitfire themselves weren't too bad, although somewhat passive aggressive as usual when criticized. But they are passionate, oh well. It happens. Nobody is perfect. While I happen to think the approach that Mr. Persing or the Cinesamples guys takes is remarkable (in that they are always very positive towards criticism and try to help), I realize that not everyone has that kind of patience and it's fully up to them how they engage with folks. Spitfire did help out (though they could have been less grumpy about it), and the great thing about an issue getting sussed out on a forum is that if someone else has the same perceived problem, they may find the thread and solve it themselves without even needing to bother support! I always say this is what's great about forums. I guess people should grateful it was only locked and not deleted. That would have been actually disgusting.


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## Fleer

+1
Read the locked thread and found myself to generally agree with Echoes ~o)


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## José Herring

You guys seem to think that when somebody becomes a developer they're all of sudden Apple or in this thread a car manufacture. It's two or three extremely overworked guys behind these products. To expect them to have a polished business model to handle all complaints is too much. 

EP doesn't post any more so why bring him up? And, I've seen him get testy with plenty of customers. Cinesamples has come down on me for criticizing (and for good reason) that horrendous woodwind library they made. They take that shit personally. I understand why. They've got a lot riding on these products and the rep of the products is everything to them.

I think a better way to handle it in this community is just take it private. PM works wonders. You talk to these people personally and every one of them with rare exception is a decent human being trying his best, sometimes succeeding and sometimes not.


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## NYC Composer

josejherring @ Sun Mar 01 said:


> You guys seem to think that when somebody becomes a developer they're all of sudden Apple or in this thread a car manufacture. It's two or three extremely overworked guys behind these products. To expect them to have a polished business model to handle all complaints is too much.
> 
> EP doesn't post any more so why bring him up? And, I've seen him get testy with plenty of customers. Cinesamples has come down on me for criticizing (and for good reason) that horrendous woodwind library they made. They take that [email protected]#t personally. I understand why. They've got a lot riding on these products and the rep of the products is everything to them.
> 
> I think a better way to handle it in this community is just take it private. PM works wonders. You talk to these people personally and every one of them with rare exception is a decent human being trying his best, sometimes succeeding and sometimes not.



...you slag Cinesamples in your post and you don't see the irony in reference to the point you started to make??


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## José Herring

I slanged Cinesamples about a year or more ago. I think they've gotten over it. I don't even think they remember.


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## Arbee

NYC Composer @ Mon Mar 02 said:


> It's either "Sample Talk", the free, unfettered, occasionally rude but fairly civil place in general, open to all to air their opinions, or it isn't. The recent lock and general mod statements have set clear limits, and now, sadly , this is a different place than it once was.
> 
> Ladies and Gentlemen, feel free to say anything about a product or a set of products, as long as it's positive.


This. I'm not sure where people are supposed to go if they're looking for honest, open, unfiltered, unmanaged opinion (and I fully get that opinion can be "wrong"). That was certainly the value to me when I joined this forum and it saved me a bundle of heartache and money as I was able to make informed choices. And it's not even about "good" and "not good" libraries, much more about what suits how I work and personal preference. Must confess I tend to think of our site more as "infomercial" these days. 

.


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## marclawsonmusic

There must be some other water under the bridge because I actually got a lot out of that thread... watching someone else struggle with a problem and hearing the dev respond actually gave me some ideas of stuff I could try on my own. For my part, I benefited from the conversation. "Musicians helping musicians" right?

What amazes me is that the occasional troll gets laughed off by the community - very much paying the fee for their own stupidity without intervention by the mods - but a regular like Guy gets the Grobthar ban-hammer for trying to have an actual conversation.

For what it's worth, I work in software development and forums are the lifeblood of what I do. The idea that people in the trenches (at whatever level) cannot struggle through problems and help each other find solutions honestly baffles me. I have never had to worry about hurting the feelings of the guy who wrote the latest open-source plugin I found on GitHub or "defaming the reputation" of the team who wrote the jQuery 1.11.2 API. I just say - "hey, this isn't working.. help?" and someone either gives me a workaround, or tells me how I'm doing it wrong, or the dev hears about it and fixes the problem. No harm, no foul.

Knowing I have to tiptoe around certain developers just means that I will quit using their products, because no matter how much you RTFM, there are problems you run into while working in the trenches... and this forum is one of the only places you can get help. I honestly don't see how censoring these conversations helps anyone, but like Larry said it's not my forum.


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## SymphonicSamples

Sample libraries are sort of like Models . Some models require less attention to be beautiful in a photo , some models look better from certain angles , some are incredibly special in specific ways . Some just need a little more time in photoshop  to look absolutely incredible , and indeed some look more beautiful with minimal makeup , and some need more . Take all available high end string libraries , get them all in the same room like 10 models who look similar . There are differences , we naturally will be draw to the conclusion some are more pretty than others on first impressions . (library demos) Once you get to know the personality or in this case programming of a library this can sometimes outweigh the initial love at first sight and become the one your most draw to . If you have a talented photographer taking pictures ,(mockup artist) they can all be made to look stunning , and a poor photographer can also make them all looks somewhat average . As Carles said , they are our tools by choice or for some necessity . I've made purchases I'm so grateful for as a composer , and some I was a little disappointed in . Over time I have submitted little bugs I have found along the way , but like most things if I spend a little more time with certain libraries , I find what it's specialties can be for me . In all honesty of the libraries I own , none of them are 100% drop dead perfect for every composers needs , or every musical context . Considering the shear amount of samples in some of them and the level of programming , (and at times very minimal price tag when all things are considered) , these issues can arise over time as you use various patches in different situations . Naturally when they get reported you hope they get fixed at some point especially if they are notable , and the subtle issues you always find a work around . Some libraries certainly have their own personality disorders but you can always find ways around them and get results . I certainly sympathies with composers who have notable issues with the functionality of a library, sometimes unfortunately somewhat specific to a much smaller group of users . If a complaint is valid , one would hope a developer can provide the support to assist their customers . Let's face it , were surrounded by a large selection of wonderful sample libraries at this point in time and given most libraries provide detailed walkthroughs which are certainly a great addition , this allows us to make informed choices . As already pointed out , when music is poorly orchestrated it's very easy to blame the libraries , but when it's done correctly it's truly amazing what can be achieved with them .


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## wesbender

Yeah, I don't get it. Negative opinions can be just as useful as positive opinions, and I thought that's what this place (sans Commercial Announcements) was all about?

I can maybe see the rationale for locking a completely unhelpful thread that has regressed into a pissing match, but not a potentially helpful thread that happened to contain some mildly testy disagreements. Perhaps I missed something, but I don't recall any blatant disrespect and/or insult-hurling going on over there, so the conclusion was pretty disappointing. 

I also found it disappointing how Guy was shot down for voicing his opinions while "not having the latest version of the product." If people had actually bothered to read his posts, it was quite clear that he did, in fact, have (or had) the latest version of the stereo mixes (they just happen to be a bit further down in the update chain, which is no fault of his). If it fits his personal preference and workflow to use the stereo mixes, then he has every right to voice his opinion on the latest available version of that portion of the product, which is exactly what he did (and in a rather respectful manner).


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## renegade

Echoes in the Attic @ Mon 02 Mar said:


> I was actually really surprised by the other thread. But not because of any rudeness on the part of anyone with anything critical to say. It was those that jumped to the defence of Spitfire that I found rather over the top.
> 
> Anyone with any criticism was reasonably polite as far as I could tell. While there was some user error, so what? Patrick repeatedly said he loved Spitfire products and was heavily invested in them, and also freely admitted that he was wrong and did not fully understand the programming that was causing his problems. Guy was perfectly reasonable as well. In fact just about everyone with any criticism were extremely respectful and also in the same posts heaped praise on them, except for the one person had an unfortunate opinion that much of the content of Earth sounded similar and was rather blunt about it. Again so what, it was his opinion. It wasn't a commercial announcement thread. Can people not give their honest impression of a library? Sometimes negative impressions are caused by user error and when publicly brought up, they are usually set straight. That's a good thing as well. The whole thing was actually kind of productive and wouldn't have been controversial if no tempers or defensiveness had reared up.
> 
> I'm sorry but the defensiveness and lashing out of those defending Spitfire was the only unfortunate part. Spitfire themselves weren't too bad, although somewhat passive aggressive as usual when criticized. But they are passionate, oh well. It happens. Nobody is perfect.



Almost exactly my thought. And like NYC Composer, I don't like the direction this is heading. But it's not my forum either


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## Jaap

Hmm read the thread actually and also find it very usefull. I am thinking about purchasing some SF libraries and actually that thread gave me some good information.
I really don't see the issues raised there and I think Guys post where normal and his reason for using an older version perfectly legimate. To be honest I have seen many many worse examples here on the forum and it's a pitty that it went this way.

The true strength for this forum is that we could have a place to openly discuss our opinions and yeah we are not all always perfect in expressing ourselves (neither composer, nor developper), but isn't that the job of a moderator to conduct it to a civilised path without closing and temp banning straight away?
I am also from the generation that got banned from NS forums just becaused I discussed openly (in a civil way) Garritan's products and it would be a terrible shame if VI went the same and whould be horribly ironic since most members from the first years where actually banned NS members....

What is wrong with a good open discussion? And what's wrong with having a bit of heath in it now and then as well? As long as we don't take it out personal.
I would hate to start thinking before I open a thread about whether I can or cannot express my opinion.
I remember when Andrew from Audiobro posted his first demo's of LASS and I was actually quite disturbed by the tuning at that time and also expressed my opinion. Had some good talks and discussions and ended up as one of the greatest LASS fanboys, so can't see any harm in that. The contrary to be honest.


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## G.R. Baumann

NYC Composer @ Mon Mar 02 said:


> Also getting in before the lock (maybe):
> 
> It's either "Sample Talk", the free, unfettered, occasionally rude but fairly civil place in general, open to all to air their opinions, or it isn't. The recent lock and general mod statements have set clear limits, and now, sadly , this is a different place than it once was.



It is not the first time that I observed the throwing tantrums (Not you Larry) "I think I leave this board." phenomenon, which then caused the administrative level to intervene. 

Fwiw, yeah Larry, I feel the same way about this level of developer centric sterilisation of rather civil threads.


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## midfi

My 2cents FWIW (having worked in both sales and customers services)....

The car comparison is interesting because cars are usually advertised as being silent, spotless and able to magically dispel all other traffic from the roads (always gorgeous and fun to drive scenic roads too) and they inspire dramatic weather too. And when you drive them you will become instantly good looking too. And successful. And sexy.

If cars were advertised more like Spitfire (or Cinesamples, or similar devs) then we'd be shown the head of the car company filming himself getting into the car and starting it up and going for a real drive in real traffic, and then pulling over, getting out and opening up the bonnet (hood) to look at the engine. Much more realistic, and much more honest.

The point is I don't see how devs can BE any more honest about their products' capabilities, limitations and flaws (if any) than putting up essentially unedited walkthroughs with live keyboard playing. And most products have independent reviews and demos you can easily find, the demos often being much more amateurish than the official ones which is great for comparison if you're not the world's greatest player/ programmer.

Walking into a car dealership and complaining about the car you just bought, even if it is user error, is NOT the same as insinuating the product is faulty on a public forum. These products are fairly niche, and the handful of music gear forums out there are very influential. It's a small world. So a more accurate comparison would be submitting a letter or article to a popular car consumer magazine claiming such-and-such a car has certain faults. As Spitfire themselves pointed out, such reckless and unfounded claims can easily become 'the truth' if they are not swiftly and unequivocally refuted.

It's unfair to criticise a product and imply it is faulty on the one hand and then expect the developer to bite his/ her tongue and not point out that it is in fact YOU who is faulty, if that is indeed the case.

If you start throwing virtual rocks at a virtual instrument developer don't be surprised if your response also comes tied to a virtual brick. Seems fair enough to me! o-[][]-o 

Maybe the best approach in these kinds of situations is to start off by posting a thread saying "OK folks, I'm experiencing such-and-such a problem.... help me out here guys... what am I doing wrong here?"

If it turns out it is the product which at fault (and not you) then this will eventually be discovered and you and the devs can take it from there.


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## woodsdenis

G.R. Baumann @ Mon Mar 02 said:


> NYC Composer @ Mon Mar 02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also getting in before the lock (maybe):
> 
> It's either "Sample Talk", the free, unfettered, occasionally rude but fairly civil place in general, open to all to air their opinions, or it isn't. The recent lock and general mod statements have set clear limits, and now, sadly , this is a different place than it once was.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is not the first time that I observed the throwing tantrums (Not you Larry) "I think I leave this board." phenomenon, which then caused the administrative level to intervene.
> 
> Fwiw, yeah Larry, I feel the same way about this level of developer centric sterilisation of rather civil threads.
Click to expand...


With you too on this one, there is a sense of deja vu going on here. 8dio the last time now Spitfire.


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## G.R. Baumann

woodsdenis @ Mon Mar 02 said:


> G.R. Baumann @ Mon Mar 02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NYC Composer @ Mon Mar 02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also getting in before the lock (maybe):
> 
> It's either "Sample Talk", the free, unfettered, occasionally rude but fairly civil place in general, open to all to air their opinions, or it isn't. The recent lock and general mod statements have set clear limits, and now, sadly , this is a different place than it once was.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is not the first time that I observed the throwing tantrums (Not you Larry) "I think I leave this board." phenomenon, which then caused the administrative level to intervene.
> 
> Fwiw, yeah Larry, I feel the same way about this level of developer centric sterilisation of rather civil threads.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> With you too on this one, there is a sense of deja vu going on here. 8dio the last time now Spitfire.
Click to expand...


Yes!

Guy is very vocal all right, and sometimes posts at extraordinary length as well, so what? This ain't twitter. 

It is rather ridiculous, but Guy had been asked to take a hike and leave the forum for a while. He can not check his PM either afaik.

WTF :?:

To judge Guy's post as click bait is rather risible. There was also very useful information in there thanks to the participants. 

Tons of cheerleading and hyped up marketing on the one side, but critique and opinions to be sterilised as per wishes of developers is not an atmosphere I enjoy.



> I don't own that many Spitfire products but I am a fan.



Good for you John :D , but perhaps you and Fred weighted certain aspects of this thread disproportional? 

I think so!

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## british_bpm

Hello,

With regards this new thread no one at Spitfire nor anyone connected with us has made any complaints formal or otherwise to VI-Control or indeed directly via PM or otherwise to any of the contributors here.

Kind regards.

Christian.


----------



## procreative

I think some guys here missed my point. Its not that I blame developers when a user cannot get the library working how they imagined. 

Its that the nature of promo videos ensures they show you just how great their products are, but sometimes there are perceived flaws. More often they are down to lack of knowledge of how to use them, sometimes due to scripting errors or worse glitches in samples.

This is where a forum is useful, to at least try to eliminate whether it is indeed a library issue, a local hardware incompatibility or user error.

The user error can be due to either not reading the manual or lack of clarity from the developer on how to use said feature.

Lastly, there does seem to be a selective application of developer defence in operation. There are several open threads attacking East West which do not seem to get this heavy moderation, many spouting untruths and myths yet other developers get more 'protection'.

Is this due to advertising revenue, or some other reason? Even Native Instruments get a rough ride here. Is this a case of their big boys so they deserve it?

As I said me personally I try to email the developer with my issues/questions, but sometimes a consensus can shed light on what the issue is.

Some of the 'experienced' users need to learn some humility, everyone has to start somewhere and its a steep learning curve to master many of the libraries and for some users its not their day job so they do not have the benefit of daily use to learn by trial and error.

PS This is not specifically aimed at Spitfire, its just a general observation at the way these type of threads end up (from both sides).


----------



## Consona

wesbender @ Mon Mar 02 said:


> Negative opinions can be just as useful as positive opinions


Negative opinions are even more useful than positive.  Improvement comes through constructive criticism, not by mere praising.

Forum is about discussion. Anyone should feel free to express his opinions about product here and developer can write their point of view/arguments. No product is perfect and good criticism should help developers to make their products better. Just be polite and respectful.


----------



## AC986

If Larry goes, I go! :lol: :lol: :lol: 


Make no mistake about it, Ladies & Gents from all corners of the planet, this is all about money.

From this point on, whenever, or if I ever post another track, which is now doubtful, under no circumstances EVER EVER ask me what friggin libraries I used. I can't stand all this what did you use crap any longer. I think it's a bloody liberty advertising these things either positively or negatively henceforth considering how much they cost in the first place.

To put a ban on Guy, albeit for a short time is questionable.


----------



## synergy543

I read the threads and didn't see what all the huffing and puffing was about. Some guys had some questions about how to make the best use of the samples or had a misunderstanding about how to use some special features. Why get defensive and attack them? Why not just guide them in the use of the features or let others share their experiences that might inspire a few new ideas?

And the suggestion to hide such questions behind a help desk is always sad to me because each time someone asks a question that gets answered in the forum I learn something new. Lots of people can learn from one example - what a novel idea! The issue that Patrick ran into was new to me so I learned something there.

And the questions Guy had about about the making use of the library are the same one that I've had in the back of my head. I was hoping to hear some ideas of how others are using this as I was considering whether to purchase or not. As it degenerated into a flogging against those asking valid questions, I learned nothing. And therefore I am still undecided. Egos and emotions won over simply explaining misunderstanding and sharing ideas about the library's applications. Maybe there wasn't a good answer and its just something I don't need. I guess I'll never know.

This is a small world and we all really need to reach out to help each other. We've more to gain than to lose.


----------



## G.R. Baumann

adriancook @ Mon Mar 02 said:


> Make no mistake about it, Ladies & Gents from all corners of the planet, this is all about money.



ts ts ts... you sure? :lol: 



adriancook @ Mon Mar 02 said:


> To put a ban on Guy, albeit for a short time is questionable.



Utterly ridiculous to ban him. 

Perogative of forum administration of course, perogative of users is to participate here or not. 

Something they should consider strongly, as they are nothing without the userbase, and it is people like Guy who make this a lively place, and not the marketing section.

As per above, I herewith officially request them to lift the ban on Guy. ( And yes, I was the one who bitched about his demos having the flavour of someone walking with his feet on the keyboard, ahem. :lol: )

For good measure, I am not participating on VIC any longer until this ban has been lifted, which is my perogative.

Best
G


----------



## sinkd

G.R. Baumann @ Mon Mar 02 said:


> woodsdenis @ Mon Mar 02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> G.R. Baumann @ Mon Mar 02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NYC Composer @ Mon Mar 02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also getting in before the lock (maybe):
> 
> It's either "Sample Talk", the free, unfettered, occasionally rude but fairly civil place in general, open to all to air their opinions, or it isn't. The recent lock and general mod statements have set clear limits, and now, sadly , this is a different place than it once was.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is not the first time that I observed the throwing tantrums (Not you Larry) "I think I leave this board." phenomenon, which then caused the administrative level to intervene.
> 
> Fwiw, yeah Larry, I feel the same way about this level of developer centric sterilisation of rather civil threads.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> With you too on this one, there is a sense of deja vu going on here. 8dio the last time now Spitfire.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes!
> 
> Guy is very vocal all right, and sometimes posts at extraordinary length as well, so what? This ain't twitter.
> 
> It is rather ridiculous, but Guy had been asked to take a hike and leave the forum for a while. He can not check his PM either afaik.
> 
> WTF :?:
> 
> To judge Guy's post as click bait is rather risible. There was also very useful information in there thanks to the participants.
> 
> Tons of cheerleading and hyped up marketing on the one side, but critique and opinions to be sterilised as per wishes of developers is not an atmosphere I enjoy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't own that many Spitfire products but I am a fan.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Good for you John :D , but perhaps you and Fred weighted certain aspects of this thread disproportional?
> 
> I think so!
> 
> Just my 2 cents.
Click to expand...


If Guy has been asked to go then I am out as well. I am a long time supporter of this forum, but I do not think that Guy did anything disingenuous or incorrect--certainly nothing that rises to the level of a ban. He told us which version he was using from the start. I always find his posts extremely useful, level-headed and polite. And even as a VERY HAPPY Sable user (latest version of V1/Vc) I found a lot to agree with in his OP. If his hiatus is a mutually-agreed upon thing then maybe that's a different matter, but I believe admin took him to task unfairly right before locking the thread.

@Fred: Please reconsider

Damon


----------



## lee

I don't think the ban was right either. However, Guy is incredibly naive thinking that thread wouldn't result in bad consequences, not necessarily a ban but to me that first post was easy to predict would get heated responses from people. It's not hard to see, that was an open up a can of worms type of thread. But I guess Guy hoped this one would be the exception.

BTW isn't this the 2nd time Guy gets banned? He'll be back..


----------



## Phil-thy

I too think it is wrong Guy has been banned. Although throughly predictable it turned heated, the vast bulk of what was said was useful in my opinion. I am going to purchase Sable and find these kinds of discussions useful. I am also grown up enough to take peoples opinions with a pinch of salt. Everyone works differently and there is always an element of chance when purchasing new samples. I guess purchasers should haver lower expectations, and developers should calm the hype....Has anyone ever released something that is perfect?

I guess at the end of the day VI gets Ad revenue from Spitfire and they like having developers contribute to their forum, so it's in their interest to protect them.


----------



## lee

Phil-thy @ Mon Mar 02 said:


> I guess at the end of the day VI gets Ad revenue from Spitfire and they like having developers contribute to their forum, so it's in their interest to protect them.



True. And it's also in potential customers interest that the developers stay and are in a good mood.  

Maybe we should start a new voting topic to get guy back?


----------



## Echoes in the Attic

Guy was temporarily banned? Are you frickin' kidding me? That is truly pathetic. Actually, I just re-read some of that other thread and was shocked to see something I hadn't noticed before. One of the worst overreactions and worst offenders of turning a fairly civil thread into needless drama was a moderator! I couldn't believe my eyes. And they asked guy to step away? 

Wow this is making me rethink my participation here.


----------



## tokatila

My opinion is as follows:

How lucky we are to be able to care about these kinds of things. 

Now, back onto my high horse.


----------



## EastWest Lurker

I didn't see that thread, only the aftermath, so I don't have an opinion on Guy's banning.However, the best post in this discussion is:

Windshore wrote: If you were to listen to a demo of a microphone and preamp that was being demonstrated by Stevie Wonder, .. would you then assume that that mic and preamp would make you sound like Stevie Wonder?


Bingo!


----------



## woodsdenis

sinkd @ Mon Mar 02 said:


> G.R. Baumann @ Mon Mar 02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> woodsdenis @ Mon Mar 02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> G.R. Baumann @ Mon Mar 02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NYC Composer @ Mon Mar 02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also getting in before the lock (maybe):
> 
> It's either "Sample Talk", the free, unfettered, occasionally rude but fairly civil place in general, open to all to air their opinions, or it isn't. The recent lock and general mod statements have set clear limits, and now, sadly , this is a different place than it once was.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is not the first time that I observed the throwing tantrums (Not you Larry) "I think I leave this board." phenomenon, which then caused the administrative level to intervene.
> 
> Fwiw, yeah Larry, I feel the same way about this level of developer centric sterilisation of rather civil threads.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> With you too on this one, there is a sense of deja vu going on here. 8dio the last time now Spitfire.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes!
> 
> Guy is very vocal all right, and sometimes posts at extraordinary length as well, so what? This ain't twitter.
> 
> It is rather ridiculous, but Guy had been asked to take a hike and leave the forum for a while. He can not check his PM either afaik.
> 
> WTF :?:
> 
> To judge Guy's post as click bait is rather risible. There was also very useful information in there thanks to the participants.
> 
> Tons of cheerleading and hyped up marketing on the one side, but critique and opinions to be sterilised as per wishes of developers is not an atmosphere I enjoy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't own that many Spitfire products but I am a fan.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Good for you John :D , but perhaps you and Fred weighted certain aspects of this thread disproportional?
> 
> I think so!
> 
> Just my 2 cents.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If Guy has been asked to go then I am out as well. I am a long time supporter of this forum, but I do not think that Guy did anything disingenuous or incorrect--certainly nothing that rises to the level of a ban. He told us which version he was using from the start. I always find his posts extremely useful, level-headed and polite. And even as a VERY HAPPY Sable user (latest version of V1/Vc) I found a lot to agree with in his OP. If his hiatus is a mutually-agreed upon thing then maybe that's a different matter, but I believe admin took him to task unfairly right before locking the thread.
> 
> @Fred: Please reconsider
> 
> Damon
Click to expand...


Agreed I am out, this is just crazy.


----------



## Mystic

I'm going to play devils advocate here because this isn't the first time I've seen a thread like this pop up where people are screaming about censorship.

This is a private forum and they have rules. From what I've seen in my time here, they are very relaxed on enforcing them which is great but we are guests here who need to abide by them. Don't like em? No one is forcing you to be here.

Running or moderating a forum is not an easy task and you come under fire a lot when you need to deal with heated situations. I do know that threads like this questioning or criticizing the action of administration is very much unacceptable behaviour. The reality is that something happened and they felt the need to step in. You don't have to like that it happens but you do need to get over it and go on with life. It has nothing to do with power trips and everything to do with keeping the forum clean and in its proper state so that people can have good conversation instead of flame wars.


----------



## rJames

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Mar 02 said:


> I didn't see that thread, only the aftermath, so I don't have an opinion on Guy's banning.However, the best post in this discussion is:
> 
> Windshore wrote: If you were to listen to a demo of a microphone and preamp that was being demonstrated by Stevie Wonder, .. would you then assume that that mic and preamp would make you sound like Stevie Wonder?
> 
> 
> Bingo!



Truth is, that is exactly why a microphone manufacturer would use Stevie Wonder as a spokesperson. (I can sound as good as Stevie Wonder)

Un ban Guy... bad move!!!

Get a thicker skin.

Give solutions and links to videos not confrontation.

People who are not paid by a developer; stop defending the developers. We want realistic, experienced intercourse here not blind endorsements. If you haven't had my experience then maybe you just haven't delved deep enough into the library. Let the discussion be about what it is about.

Stop responding to ridiculous claims (all the patches sound alike) No one in their right mind believes that!

Why do people come to VI to voice concerns about their frustrations? I can speak for myself. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. (its a last resort)

Something worth repeating: libraries used to be simple and intuitive, now they are much more complex. Please, please respond with solutions and links. When you don't, it seems like you are admitting the problem exists but you haven't had time to fix it.

For devs and defenders, if you are just going to say, you're an idiot, you don't know what you're doing; don't respond.

Ron


----------



## EastWest Lurker

Agreed Ron, "We want realistic, experienced intercourse."

The problem is that people who can provide that frequently get drowned out by the sheer volume of people who do not have either and the developers shave to pend too much time having to respond to them so that their ill informed opinions don't end up in a Google search.

Ask yourselves this: why is it that guys like T.J., Colin, Roberto, and Craig seem to make great sounding music not matter which libraries they are using at a given moment while others here seem to make crappy sounding music not matter which libraries they are using at a given moment .
The libraries are tools, nothing more. ALL of them have things they do well and work well and ALL do not. Presumably, we are smarter than software. It is more realistic to expect US to adapt than the software. Or we need to choose other software.


----------



## Stephen Rees

It has just gone past my 10 year anniversary being a member here. Doesn't seem that long ago that I moved here as my favourite musical hang out on the net from Northernsounds.

My understanding is that Frederick set this place up as a reaction to the apparent lack of independence of that forum. His reaction to the Northernsounds forum model was not a destructive one. It was a creative one. He created this space for people to come together and learn from (and with) each other.

And what an incredible resource it has become for us all. Truly a vast resource of musicians helping musicians.

To those who would leave, I'm sorry to see you go. Each and every one of you. It diminishes the value of this forum not to have your contributions.

Having a forum like this to express ourselves is not a right though. It takes someone's vision and resources to make it happen. Frederick did that for us all. You can disagree with him all you like about his forum rules and how he and the moderation team applies them, but he deserves a massive amount of our respect for making this place happen.


----------



## Astronaut FX

Jay, I'm not sure that responses like your last two really help the discussion much. The tendency for developers (and in some cases, their spokespersons) to chalk all issues up to (1) user error, or (2) unrealistic expectations is what is the crux of the matter at hand in my opinion. Yes, in some cases, that's exactly what the issue is. But even then, the consumer has a right to expect some level of cordial support, even if that is nothing more than some education.

I keep hearing excuses made about how much time and development and blood sweat and tears are put into these products, and that developers get defensive because it's akin to their children. I get that, truly I do. But the minute someone pays money for a license, the playing field is level.

I'm quite attached to my money, and there is often years of development that goes into earning it, and when I spend it on something, I should have some expectation of basic, courteous customer support...even when I'm "doing it wrong."

I also keep hearing about how these are niche products, and there are different business rules. Yes, and two rules that jump out at me are *(1) there are no refund provisions* and *(2) there is typically no resale permission.* I'm okay with this, and know it going in. But it doesn't change the fact purchasers are stuck with the product once purchased. That alone should afford us the benefit of the doubt when we point out flaws that end up being user error.

And if this forum is going to continue to side with developers, then stop sending me emails asking me to contribute to keeping it running. Let the developers fund it.

Viva le Guy!


----------



## EastWest Lurker

I totally agree that developers need to respond cordially right up until the moment they are addressed disrespectfully. In my view at that point they are no longer obligated to do so. 

Not saying that Guy did or did not cross that line, that is not for me to decide.


----------



## rJames

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Mar 02 said:


> Agreed Ron, "We want realistic, experienced intercourse."
> 
> The problem is that people who can provide that frequently get drowned out by the sheer volume of people who do not have either and the developers shave to pend too much time having to respond to them so that their ill informed opinions don't end up in a Google search.



When a developer responds to a stupid statement about their library, they have just added one more link for Google to find the thread that contains misinformation.

(not just to Jay) Besides, I"m very happy when a dev chimes in with information. Honestly, what really bugs me are apologists. Just stay away, you're not going to curry any favor by kissing someone's ass.

If we are actually reading this volume of Spitfire posts, they all are by people who love -LOVE- the library.

The fireworks are ALWAYS sparked by apologists... and then the response to them.


----------



## dcoscina

I wish I had the luxury you guys have to write music for a living and complain about what developer did this or that but I work 12 hrs a day as a manager at my day job and hope I have enough energy at night and on weekends to chip away at my music. 

I recently purchased a library from a developer I respect a lot and have plenty of their other products. I had some issues with my most recent acquisition so I emailed them, they got back to me, and life went on. 

Moral of the story- employ some perspective and don't expect developers to provide everything you want when you want it. I work for the largest route provider in Canada in a service manager role and I'm appalled at how our customers treat our customer service or technicians in the field. North American culture has devolved into a largely self entitled crowd who can't handle some adversity in life.

Now I must get off my soapbox and back to my hectic job.


----------



## AC986

What I never understand around here is when someone (like myself very often) comes on and asks for advice on a library or plugin etc. 

I never really see anyone that ever really accepts any advice. It just goes on and on and on and fucking on.

Occasionally I try and give advice and then I'm told it's crap advice. Why TF does anyone bother asking for advice round here?

Couple times I've asked for advice and Guy said to me - yes buy EZ Drummer and I just accepted it and bought it and it's great. Don't buy Polyplex. I also instantly accepted Guy's advice and didn't. Great.

WTF is the problem here? I'll tell you what it is. It's money.


----------



## SPOTS

I may have missed something but I can't see Guy posts being the reason of the overreacted comments. Which makes his banning even less meaningful to me.

I believe the comment stating that "DNA Earth patches sound all the same" was a big starting block (which I understand is painful to hear for the person who spent years working on it). Then Patrick stating that his SA library was useless to him when it comes to fast tempi legato, and sharing his frustrations to not see a resolution to this issue. This was a build up I'm sure... that turned out to be too much for the same day for Christian to keep it cool when jumping in the thread.

I'm sure Patrick could have been informed of the resolution to his issue very differently (from the tech support, or with a link to a video or article that deals specifically with this issue) instead of the way it happened. No one likes being addressed like you are an idiot even when you fail at something. And no one deserved so!

Nothing will change how great sounding SA libs are. It's a fact!
And I believe no one who owns SA libs will want to stop using them!


----------



## alextone

I don't agree with Guy getting banned. That thread was mild, imho. 

Still, and with rocket science gene enabled, customers can vote with their wallets, and private forum owners can set their own rules.
I'm still mystified after all these years at the odd balance of relationship between sample lib devs and users, and this discussion across more than one thread has me revisiting this curiosity.
Users have to pay up straight away and often with no return options, and for this investment, customer response, bugfixing, etc seem to......flexible, in many cases.

Am i missing something here? Is the customer/user assumed by default to have to "take whatever comes" for their cash, or is this written into the license? I can't find anything like this in the licenses i currently own.

I recently dipped my toe in the water (July,2014) for a new strings lib after many years with the same libs. 
It was advertised as being updated "soon". Questions from users about this lib update and bugs (and they're still asking in Jan/Feb 2015) are either generically and non specifically enthusiastic (i.e. "soon"), or not answered, i.e. the wall of silence.

As a consumer, i feel like i've wasted my money, and/or got less than i paid for, with vague promises of soon.

Well done you, the sample lib dev. You've got my cash, and you didn't even have to honour your stated commitments. 
What a fool i must be to trust you, and how easily you managed to extract my cash from my wallet. Something to smile and laugh about at the weekly meeting, yes?

I've learned from this experience, and will buy no more product from the example company in question. Congratulations, you got some of my cash, but you'll get no more, nor will i endorse your product to others.


In fact this experience made me step back once again, and question buying any more libs. My core set are familiar, capable, and i've learned how to play them properly. They might be "old-fashioned" to use, but i don't have to think about it.
And as it turns out, the devs i dealt with when i purchased their products years ago, have sustained good reputations for customer service over these many years.

2 Euros worth from an "oldtimer" who's seen lots of shiny kit come and go, and lots of shiny "assurances" made along the way.............. 

Alex.


----------



## EastWest Lurker

I can only say that if I had a dime for every library I used that others found unusable and a dime for every one others loved that I found unusable, I would have at least a dollar


----------



## Hanu_H

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Mar 02 said:


> I totally agree that developers need to respond cordially right up until the moment they are addressed disrespectfully. In my view at that point they are no longer obligated to do so.



It's not that simple. If customer has payed for a product they can't return, contacted support without a response and is frustrated because it's not working...then developer has failed already and needs to pick it up and make up for it to get customers respect back and not act like a child when someone asks valid questions...

-Hannes


----------



## EastWest Lurker

Hanu_H @ Mon Mar 02 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Mon Mar 02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I totally agree that developers need to respond cordially right up until the moment they are addressed disrespectfully. In my view at that point they are no longer obligated to do so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not that simple. If customer has payed for a product they can't return, contacted support without a response and is frustrated because it's not working...then developer has failed already and needs to pick it up and make up for it to get customers respect back and not act like a child when someone asks valid questions...
> 
> -Hannes
Click to expand...


Fair point.


----------



## chimuelo

I'm sure glad Orange Tree, Impact Soundworks, Chris Hein, Sonokinetic, u-He, Plogue, Soniccore DSP, Kong Audio, East West, LASS, Wavelore, NI, Office Depot, Modartt and Melda are offering Sterling Service.

Never been screwed around like that, but then again my stuff works so knock on Wood...... /\~O


----------



## AlexandreSafi

This forum seriously needs more women! :D 
All jokes aside,

It's ok! Be good to yourselves!
You guys all want the same things in the end. 
The solutions are simple.
All this reminds me of this little "1-hour bed-book" which i feel should be required reading/practice in schools and forums before participating:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Four-Agreements-Practical-Personal/dp/1878424319 (http://www.amazon.com/The-Four-Agreemen ... 1878424319)

For those who don't have time, this is basically:
1.Be Impeccable With Your Words
2.Don't Take Anything Personally
3.Don't Make Assumptions
4.Always Do Your Best

Good luck all on your next project! o


----------



## creativeforge

Echoes in the Attic @ Sun Mar 01 said:


> I was actually really surprised by the other thread. But not because of any rudeness on the part of anyone with anything critical to say. It was those that jumped to the defence of Spitfire that I found rather over the top.
> 
> Anyone with any criticism was reasonably polite as far as I could tell. While there was some user error, so what? Patrick repeatedly said he loved Spitfire products and was heavily invested in them, and also freely admitted that he was wrong and did not fully understand the programming that was causing his problems. Guy was perfectly reasonable as well. In fact just about everyone with any criticism were extremely respectful and also in the same posts heaped praise on them, except for the one person had an unfortunate opinion that much of the content of Earth sounded similar and was rather blunt about it. Again so what, it was his opinion. It wasn't a commercial announcement thread. Can people not give their honest impression of a library? Sometimes negative impressions are caused by user error and when publicly brought up, they are usually set straight. That's a good thing as well. The whole thing was actually kind of productive and wouldn't have been controversial if no tempers or defensiveness had reared up.
> 
> I'm sorry but the defensiveness and lashing out of those defending Spitfire was the only unfortunate part. Spitfire themselves weren't too bad, although somewhat passive aggressive as usual when criticized. But they are passionate, oh well. It happens. Nobody is perfect. While I happen to think the approach that Mr. Persing or the Cinesamples guys takes is remarkable (in that they are always very positive towards criticism and try to help), I realize that not everyone has that kind of patience and it's fully up to them how they engage with folks. Spitfire did help out (though they could have been less grumpy about it), and the great thing about an issue getting sussed out on a forum is that if someone else has the same perceived problem, they may find the thread and solve it themselves without even needing to bother support! I always say this is what's great about forums. I guess people should grateful it was only locked and not deleted. That would have been actually disgusting.



Very lucid balanced view of things here, Echoes. 

"...and the great thing about an issue getting sussed out on a forum is that if someone else has the same perceived problem, they may find the thread and solve it themselves without even needing to bother support! I always say this is what's great about forums. I guess people should grateful it was only locked and not deleted."

*MUSICIANS HELPING MUSICIANS*

Sometimes we need a safe place to hash things out so we can hear ourselves, and have people help us see more clearly what is really bugging us. Feeling isolated with a product that overwhelms us will produce frustration, that's normal, but lashing out at developers risks alienating us from them. Tech support isn't an easy gig either, and connecting the dots of a complaint with the reality of an actual bug could be laborious if tempers flare. 

Trying to prove one another wrong will never lead to positive results. We have to find a way out of the rut so we can move forward. Allowing one another to be immature at times, out-to-lunch, off-the-handle, etc. is OK. We've all been there and needed lots of grace...

Regards,

Andre


----------



## rJames

Now we're getting somewhere...and if you read that thread yesterday, you will know that it was derailed not by Guy but by the developer. (if you actually read the thread instead of just trying to be a peacekeeper, you'll know this is true)

Reinstate Guy and ban the developer.

The person that said that a particular library all sounded the same was obviously a novice...and a customer of Spitfire.

I remember when I first bought Drums of War, I though they all sounded the same. Uneducated ears.


----------



## Synesthesia

Guys,

There is a lot of talk here about disrespectful replies etc etc.

The reality is that we answered multiple support requests from Guy. I know, because I answered a few of them myself. I patiently ignored his repeated statements in unconnected threads about how Sable doesn't work. Or occasionally asked him to contact us again, as I was using it no problem.

I took time out on a Saturday from my family as did Andy and Blake to check that we weren't missing something, we ran a number of tests on differing versions of the library to double and triple check that we weren't missing some problem, before we posted up another link with rendered audio from Patrick's midi, and a few calm suggestions why he might be experiencing a problem.

He responded by saying that the script was broken, and the errors all clearly on the side of the library.

Unfortunately, we continued to post back, still with restraint, to defend our product, which has no broken code, or broken programming, and still pointing out some possible fixes for him. Maybe we should have just left it there.

Despite this, he continued to say that the legato in *all* our libraries is substandard, even after accepting he has made a user error.

There was even a comparison from one naked library demo to another with 4 times as many players and added reverb.

I have no axe to grind here, I will still (as will our support staff) respond politely to Guy and Patrick, and whoever else is here posting under pseudonyms, to help users and make sure that people get the best from our libraries.

I WANT PATRICK TO BE HAPPY!

I don't have a rolex or a ferrari. No yacht here. Just an honest business employing 15 hard working talented people and paying out significant royalties to musicians. I'm very happy to be lucky to do what I do, and grateful to all our customers who make it happen. 

In return, I do my best to ensure that we provide honest detailed walkthroughs, no fancy schmancy tricks, you see what you get.

In light of this unfortunate series of events, I can see that these have possibly been borne of frustration of a couple of users who have not understood how the product works.

Believe me, this is not what we want.

Over the next few weeks I'll be adding detailed walkthroughs on the latest scripts, on features one by one, and generally checking all manuals, and making sure that we are providing the best possible information so that people can use what they paid for.

Nothing makes me feel so depressed as when I read that someone finds something 'unusable' when I myself, and a ton of other people, are using it happily and successfully.

So, my immediate first step towards this issue is more resources for users in our youtube channel.

I'll post them up on VIC as I complete and add them.

All the best,

Paul


----------



## jleckie

(removed out of respect)


----------



## lee

jleckie @ Mon Mar 02 said:


> Just give the 'Guy' some free libraries. He will talk better about you. It worked for PS....



?


----------



## TheUnfinished

jleckie @ Mon Mar 02 said:


> Just give the 'Guy' some free libraries. He will talk better about you. It worked for PS....


I'm pretty sure there are rules about defamation on this forum.


----------



## AC986

[edited by moderator]

4. Personal attacks. When a member attacks another member - be it a composer or a developer - as a forum owner I am entitled to respond. In our ten year history, we’ve seen plenty of disagreements escalate between members themselves and/or between members and developers. Example: calling someone a fraud or a liar publicly - regardless of whether the recipient is a member or a developer - constitutes a personal attack. The problem is that subsequent rants against another left unchecked can easily escalate. Those kinds of issues are generally outside the scope of the forum when they reach critical mass where either the legal card is raised or suggested. When I move these threads I do so as a way to protect our forum and members who angrily participated in those threads from doing harm to themselves and to those being attacked. When posting, please maintain a respectful tone towards all members of this forum. If you cannot agree to disagree respectfully on a subject, please refrain from posting.


----------



## sin(x)

> Nothing makes me feel so depressed as when I read that someone finds something 'unusable' when I myself, and a ton of other people, are using it happily and successfully.



But how does one contradict the other? In my book, _“I find this unusable”_ is a perfectly valid way of stating that the thing in question is designed in a way that's so diametrically opposed to what the person in question expects that they feel the loops they'd have to jump through in order to use it outweigh the advantages for them. I find the Metro UI unusable, along with German tax forms, my former bank's web presence, ripe mangoes, and PHP. Each of these things has thousands or millions of people who evidently don't agree with me. Does that make my statement invalid? Shouldn't it be clear that I'm not trying to do an objective assessment (if by nothing else then at least by the fact that there is no such thing in this context)?

Yes, “unless I've misunderstood something, it seems to me that there'd be ways in which this product could have been designed that would be more in line with my expectations, and I feel that in its current state, this divergence diminishes my enjoyment of using the product to the point where I prefer other alternatives” would be more polite than “I think this is unusable”, but in the context of a forum post they're semantically pretty much the same to me.


----------



## AC986

Synesthesia @ Mon Mar 02 said:


> Guys,
> 
> There is a lot of talk here about disrespectful replies etc etc.
> 
> The reality is that we answered multiple support requests from Guy. I know, because I answered a few of them myself. I patiently ignored his repeated statements in unconnected threads about how Sable doesn't work. Or occasionally asked him to contact us again, as I was using it no problem.
> 
> I took time out on a Saturday from my family as did Andy and Blake to check that we weren't missing something, we ran a number of tests on differing versions of the library to double and triple check that we weren't missing some problem, before we posted up another link with rendered audio from Patrick's midi, and a few calm suggestions why he might be experiencing a problem.
> 
> He responded by saying that the script was broken, and the errors all clearly on the side of the library.
> 
> Unfortunately, we continued to post back, still with restraint, to defend our product, which has no broken code, or broken programming, and still pointing out some possible fixes for him. Maybe we should have just left it there.
> 
> Despite this, he continued to say that the legato in *all* our libraries is substandard, even after accepting he has made a user error.
> 
> There was even a comparison from one naked library demo to another with 4 times as many players and added reverb.
> 
> I have no axe to grind here, I will still (as will our support staff) respond politely to Guy and Patrick, and whoever else is here posting under pseudonyms, to help users and make sure that people get the best from our libraries.
> 
> I WANT PATRICK TO BE HAPPY!
> 
> 
> Paul



Is there such a thing as customer confidentiality at Spitfire Audio?


----------



## lee

Lockdown.. in 10.. 9.. 8.. 7..


----------



## AC986

[edited by moderator]

4. Personal attacks. When a member attacks another member - be it a composer or a developer - as a forum owner I am entitled to respond. In our ten year history, we’ve seen plenty of disagreements escalate between members themselves and/or between members and developers. Example: calling someone a fraud or a liar publicly - regardless of whether the recipient is a member or a developer - constitutes a personal attack. The problem is that subsequent rants against another left unchecked can easily escalate. Those kinds of issues are generally outside the scope of the forum when they reach critical mass where either the legal card is raised or suggested. When I move these threads I do so as a way to protect our forum and members who angrily participated in those threads from doing harm to themselves and to those being attacked. When posting, please maintain a respectful tone towards all members of this forum. If you cannot agree to disagree respectfully on a subject, please refrain from posting.


----------



## Rctec

http://youtu.be/l9Aj7W3g1qo
This is how I see the whole issue!
-Hz-


----------



## shangsean

For what it's worth...

Unbelievable that Guy was banned. The discussion wasn’t harsh or disrespectful until the dev arrived. Some people were expressing their disappointment with some aspects of the libraries. Well that’s what the forums are for. There will be positive and negative. I’m sure the devs don’t mind the free publicity they get with all the positive remarks about their products in the forums. If people didn’t post both negative and positive feedback on forums we wouldn’t be able to make an informed purchase. Most libraries have faults, it just depends on which ones we can live with. I purchased Albion based mainly on forum opinions.

If I spend close to $700 on a library (the cost of Albion in AUS Dollars), I want to know everything about it before I purchase it as I can’t demo it, return it or sell it if it doesn’t work out (and sometimes they do have real issues). It doesn’t really matter if the dev says it’s perfect. If it doesn’t work for me, then it just doesn’t. It seems the vast majority of people like the Spitfire stuff, but that doesn’t make a negative opinion invalid or wrong. I happen to think the Iceni synth stuff is very samey – so what. I’m sure all the differences can be pointed out, even by me, but when I’m looking for sounds, I find myself often thinking that they all sound the same. Not to say that I don’t use some of them though. If people can’t be honest then the forum has no point.

Just also want to say congratulations to Patrick for showing remarkable restraint in the other thread. I don’t know if I could’ve done that. Despite some negative comments from users, I feel the most negative light that was shined on Spitfire was from themselves. I’m certainly reluctant to support a company with that sort of attitude. It’s not the first time I’ve felt that way about them either.

As a side note, I have dealt with Spitfire support once or twice and they were very quick to respond and fix the problem (just download issues).


----------



## synergy543

Rctec @ Mon Mar 02 said:


> http://youtu.be/l9Aj7W3g1qo
> This is how I see the whole issue!
> -Hz-


So is that how you see it mate?

You want to add the kangaroo AND the mariaichi band?

Clearly one of them would be enough! o=?


----------



## germancomponist

Rctec @ Mon Mar 02 said:


> http://youtu.be/l9Aj7W3g1qo
> This is how I see the whole issue!
> -Hz-



Hi hi ... .


----------



## kitekrazy

josejherring @ Sun Mar 01 said:


> *You guys seem to think that when somebody becomes a developer they're all of sudden Apple or in this thread a car manufacture. It's two or three extremely overworked guys behind these products. To expect them to have a polished business model to handle all complaints is too much.
> 
> EP doesn't post any more so why bring him up? And, I've seen him get testy with plenty of customers. Cinesamples has come down on me for criticizing (and for good reason) that horrendous woodwind library they made. They take that shit personally. I understand why. They've got a lot riding on these products and the rep of the products is everything to them.*
> 
> I think a better way to handle it in this community is just take it private. PM works wonders. You talk to these people personally and every one of them with rare exception is a decent human being trying his best, sometimes succeeding and sometimes not.



You forget the other end. Money doesn't grow on trees for the end user either. Service after the sale is what keeps people in business. If they can't provide that then they need to do something else.


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## kitekrazy

You always have a few people talk about how bad a products is despite how good it is. When it's a bad product more people will let you know.

BTW, I like how Kirk Hunter has it where you can demo his products. Unfortunately there are less developers especially in the gaming industry won't let you test a demo. It's human nature to get up about something you paid money for and don't like it without any recourse other than complaining.


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## rgames

I don't think there was anything in the other thread that warranted banning on locking but, to me, it did appear to be a pointless thread.

Maybe there's context that I'm missing but anyone who starts a thread "OK.. I hope I won't get into trouble for this" is usually trying to provoke people, not start a rational discussion. I didn't read the whole thing but I gather that's basically what happened.

If you have specific problems with a developer's product then you should feel free to post the issues and seek help from others (hopefully after or at least while you're also working with the developer). If you just want to go on a general rant, though, I don't see the benefit in that. I'm not passing judgment on whether the locked thread was or was not a general rant (as I said, I didn't read all of it but it was titled as such) but I think we all should agree that's a consideration.

Finally, I also think we all should agree that, at some point, if you're having continued trouble with a product and nobody on the forum has a solution then you should simply deal directly with the developer. It appears that's what was happening in this case and begs the question: why not just wait until the problem is solved then post the solution? Continuing to air the saga on the forum seems only to create chaos and gives the impression that, in fact, the purpose of the thread was nothing more than a general rant meant to draw attention to the OP.

Again, I certainly don't think anyone should have been banned or any thread should have been locked but, fully admitting that I might be missing context, I also don't think there was any value in the thread.

rgames


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## José Herring

kitekrazy @ Mon Mar 02 said:


> You always have a few people talk about how bad a products is despite how good it is. When it's a bad product more people will let you know.
> 
> BTW, I like how Kirk Hunter has it where you can demo his products. Unfortunately there are less developers especially in the gaming industry won't let you test a demo. It's human nature to get up about something you paid money for and don't like it without any recourse other than complaining.



True enough. But, I mean this with all sincerity, at what point does a developer stop biting his tongue and just call the person bringing the complaint a fool? I've heard soooo many good things from almost all of Spitfire products. They've single handledly turned some severely unskilled composers into people that I've taken notice of just on the basis of the sound of the library. I don't know Guy personally, I've never even spoken to him much here on the forum, but at what point does he just need to realize that it is he that's having problems using a product that many others have learned to use successfully. 

So instead of "asking for pointers" he starts a thread fault finding. Damn you can find fault with every library. And, this is after apparently Spitfire had spent an unusually amount of time helping him through tech support apparently. 

Back in the gigastudio days, I railed against GS. I couldn't stand it. It failed me so many times. Then I realized that many, many other people had it working, and still have it working to this day. Me, I never got it to work, but after criticizing it, I realized, it was me. It just wasn't my program. So I moved to Kontakt and never looked back.

So even after spending money, imo, Guy just needs to realize that maybe Spitfire isn't his library. I did a while back hear some stuff he did with LASS and it was good enough, he certainly knows how to use it, maybe that's his library.

So all I'm saying is that I can understand why Spitfire, who I saw at namm and they are plenty fine people, would ever so politely say, "shut the fuck up already!".


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## edhamilton

Read the locked thread - mostly in real time. Stunned at admins heavy handed response.
Factually incorrect to boot. (Guy had the latest version which does not apply to the mics he wanted to work with. bad form.)

Almost pulled the trigger on the full BML during the black friday sale. Previous posts from them like the ones in that thread put me off. Now for good.


----------



## prodigalson

I think banning Guy was completely unnecessary and sends the wrong message to everyone else here. His original post was completely valid and well-intentioned. 

That being said, as one of the people who was "defending" Spitfire in the other thread and has in this thread been referred to, rather ridiculously, as a "Spitfire Apologist". I'd like to remind some people of what that thread actually looked like. 

(It bears remembering that SF were INVITED to take part in what was, off the bat, a list of things people don't like about their products. I'll also preface this by saying that I don't think that anyone that posted any of this was wrong for doing so. Opinions are opinions.)

"Here's my dilemma. I like Spitfire products, they've produced some of the best out there. But maybe I've just been very very unlucky or made bad judgement calls, *but I find myself inexplicably at the point where I don't know if I should buy from them any more*." 

"*Their programming is many times suspect.* Specifically the long notes, which never loop quite right. Guy - when you use the word "bump", I wonder if you are talking about the same thing as I - it's this little... well, 'bump' at the loop point. It's because they just pick a loop point, and add a crossfade. I have contacted support about this several times, *but they just don't want to fix these things*. Not sure why... :/ "

"Whether they will admit to it or not, in anger or not, *their legato is not great*..I also agree with the fact that quite a few sustain patches have *unusable* looping as well"

...All of that was before SF even turned up....

"Guy, I really know the feeling of an "impulse buy" when a new Spitfire library is announced. I always think I purchased a universal premium product but in practice, I just use a maximum of 5 percent of Spitfire in my daily work."

"since we are being honest. Edna was one of the worst puchases ive made. 
all patches sound the same and semi useful. "

"the badly looped longs are a hideous schoolboy error which should never have passed QC before V1.0 releases"

...and that was just the 1st page well before things went pear shaped with the whole "it's the script/it's user error" back and forth. 

So I reject the idea that everything was hunky dory until SF or the "Spitfire Apologists" weighed in. A thread was started that aimed to get help but was essentially about negative opinions of their products. Fine. they were invited to weigh in and they did. Fine. By defending their products as anyone would do. FINE. THAT is what happened. 

And look, everyone is clearly allowed have an opinion and I don't think that anyone that posted any of the above is in any way wrong for doing so. As I stated in my posts in that thread, I also have had issues with a couple of their products as I have had with almost every product I own from every single developer. 

But the idea that seems to be prevailing here that people can say what they want and then get indignant when someone refutes it passionately, is ridiculous. ESPECIALLY when you invite them in. 

Also, this car metaphor is misleading. It isn't the same thing as bringing the car back to the dealership and politely asking for help. It's like driving the car to a crowded square outside the dealership, getting on a soapbox with a microphone and telling everyone in the vicinity that he just bought a car from that dealership and that it won't reverse without realizing he needed to put the car in gear first. 

I don't think it matters a damn how much money you paid for the product or that you can't return it. These are human beings that are running a small company and invest tons of time and effort and money into developing products they're proud of. They're allowed to call a spade a spade.

I also am saddened by the sentiments here of V.I. control "siding" with the developer or that there are "Spitifire defenders" and "spitfire apologists".

This is supposed to be a community right??


----------



## bbunker

I'm coming a little late to this party, but if there was anything positive to pull out of all this, it's just how much the people involved in this business actually care about what they're doing.

I know the guys at Spitfire care fantastically about their products. That isn't even the right word - I know that everything that they put out is something that they're compelled to make, each piece is a reflection of their very being, and you can see that if you have the opportunity to talk to them in person about their works - you can see the passion just flowing out of these chaps as they're talking about something they care very deeply about.

And Guy cares very deeply about what he does, about who he is, about what role he plays in this community, about giving sound and valid advice, about producing music of quality, having the tools to accomplish that, and providing others with the means to bring out the best of what they're capable of.

So these two passions came together in a conflicting way - well, it's practically inevitable. And a forum is a strange place where emotion isn't communicated very well, so these things have a tendency to inflate into knife-fights. The good news is that, being a forum, nobody actually gets stabbed!

And of course everyone has their own feelings about these crazy little libraries, too; The David Fanshawe library is one for me. I don't even own the darn thing, because...well, I'm not doing anthing at the moment where I could even think of clicking on the tab, so that purchase is waiting. But I fell in love with it playing it at NAMM, so if someone came on and slagged it off, I'd probably tell them exactly what I thought of them. That's just what happens when you actually give a damn about these things.

And of course admins and mods give a damn too. If you pull the trigger on anything, you'll get slagged off for it, and if you don't, then there're a ton of risks there, too. And you only can act based on what people have already written - it's like policing with a blindfold on. So, sure, a huge amount of slack has to be cut to these people, and a temporary ban isn't really actually THAT bad. Nobody gets actually hurt by it. It'll end, and life will go on just like it did before, so as much as the cries of "All for One, and this One for Guy" are rooted in a very valid and honest emotion, they don't actually help anything and just serve to stoke a conflict that should just subside into rational discussion. I'm looking forward to him being back, because he's a valuable member of the community. And that's that.

I think everyone should just get cut a bit more slack, really. Isn't it possible to support both the developers who put in the huge expense and effort to make these wonderful little gems, as well as the users who are disappointed (for whatever reason...isn't someone who just doesn't GET a product someone who needs the MOST support from the community?!?)?

So, everybody keep on caring passionately about this little segment of a little part of the world. And know that sometimes caring that much about stuff is going to lead to some black eyes. And that virtual black eyes are better than real ones.

That's all I got. Laterz.


----------



## 5Lives

My 2 cents - don't think that Guy should've been banned. I think there were some concerns he and others brought up - if users of libraries are not able to "review" them and comment on their experiences - even if the result is not positive, that'd be a pity for the rest of the folks on this forum.

On the other side, I think Spitfire has some of the best customer support amongst developers. Really an example for others to follow IMO. Also, their walkthroughs are absolutely wonderful. I think more walkthroughs to address specific concerns brought up would be very helpful - sometimes users think there is a problem or drawback when actually they just don't understand how to use the library correctly. I certainly had a misconception until I saw one of the Sable videos recently. A burden for developers for sure, but the onus is on them given they are selling a product (that is quite expensive, cannot be demoed, and cannot be returned).

Anyway, I'm buying Sable


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

Synesthesia @ Mon Mar 02 said:


> Guys,
> 
> I WANT PATRICK TO BE HAPPY!



Then, MARRY ME!

>8o :mrgreen: o=? o=? >8o :mrgreen: 


This is an attempt at putting things into perspective.
No one died.
Hopefully, Guy will be allowed back soon.
Everyone over reacted, me, Paul, John...etc

However, one thing that bothers me a bit, and it will be my final comment over the whole episode, is that if I am not given the chance to clarify a couple of point, I would be portrayed as the village idiot that didn't read the manual...

Well, I read the manual. I watched the tutorials.
I am not a novice. Like many here, I write, arrange, perform, produce, mix all of my work, that gets into TV programs, advertising, film...etc

Like many of us, I have over 100 VSTIs, plugins, that all have a different interface and, in some cases, a very deep internal structure.
That's a lot of software to assimilate and master.
Combined with the knowledge required to write and orchestrate, program and mix, that's an even greater amount of assimilation, greater than at any point in the history of music production...

When I look at my trajectory in this business, I can separate it in two periods:

A previous one, when I was home (or on stage) practicing my guitar, and writing tunes,
and one now, where I try to deliver on my clients expectations.
The difference between the two is that now, I don't have much time for myself anymore. To experiment, to sit down and try things out, to try to go deeper with all of the gear that I own. There are deadlines, there are the responsibility of a parent, and there is the fact that I can't stay healthy by sleeping 4 hours a night. Christian can. I can't. So, often, I can't stop and dig deep to find out why something doesn't respond as expected.

I admitted that I was unfair in some of the things I said yesterday. The whole drama got me to think about the consequences of a public critique to a developer.
It is not what one says, but the way (s)he says it, and in this respect I wasn't great.
When I say "to me, this legato is unusable" what I actually mean is that I decided to stop trying to massage a line and would rather go to another tool for that specific task.
Not that this legato is horrible, and that no one would be able to use it.
Of course, the fact that the patch I was talking about was producing level bumps explains why I preferred using another instrument.
Turns out the bump can be bypassed.
Great!
That makes me happy Paul!
Because in some circumstances, I will now be able to use it.

What I do not appreciate is the "it's in the manual, (idiot)" piece of it.
To those here that have made a judgment without owning Sable 1 + 2 + 3, the patch we are talking about is an "adaptive legato" patch, meaning that it is supposed to intelligently decide what type of legato is going to be triggered based of the vel;ocity and speed of a phrase.
It's a great idea!
I believe that other companies (VSL) have similar products, but I do not own any...
So in essence, this patch totally works as is, out of the box.
But as I found out, it starts chocking when the BPM of your tune passes a certain value.
I am not a programmer, but I assume that passed a certain speed, the script or the computing processing, or Kontakt's capabilities are not fast enough to switch legato types on time. So we get a glitch.
No big frecking deal.
You turn off the fast legato option and things are good.
I didn't know that.
And despite what Paul and Christian are saying, unless I missed it, nowhere in the manual or in the tutorial does it say: "beyond a certain BPM speed the adaptive legato will choke and your phrase will produce level bumps"
What I knew is that one can turn off a given legato type.
Yes, I knew that! 

It appears that Paul, Christian, Andy and others spent a whole day trying to figure out what was going on.
And I got an answer.
I am happy about that.
And, very bad me suggested that we may get an update one day that could possibly fix the issue. (Maybe when Kontakt allows intelligent read ahead, or maybe with an adaptation of the script...?)
Paul didn't like me suggesting such a possibility and took it as an insult because it implied something didn't quite work the way it was supposed to in that patch.

I already talked about the other points in a previous thread, so i'll spare those that managed to read thru this long winded blurb...

In the end, I think that no one that was involved in this soap opera is happy about the denouement.
I know I am not. We kind of temporarily ruined the vibe at VI-Control, hurt each other, pissed off people on both side of the isle, and kind of blemished the perception that people have of us.
Sometimes, I forget that this place is not my living room, and if I have a bad day, I shouldn't post on impulse.
I think that there was bad energy on that day.
But I like all the people involved, so let's be friends.
SF is a great company.
We should all leave our egos behind us when we communicate here.
And I should voice my concerns in a more diplomatic manner.

I am happy because I resolved the issue that I had with the legato patch, and because I learnt a cool new (very mild) insult:
You have a massive bee in your bonnet!!! :twisted:


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

HZ, thanks for the link.
Deep laughter is priceless!


----------



## brett

josejherring @ Tue Mar 03 said:


> But, I mean this with all sincerity, at what point does a developer stop biting his tongue and just call the person bringing the complaint a fool?



Never. Regardless of the circumstances. 

By all means respectfully disagree, but directly or indirectly suggesting a customer is a fool or similar is bad for business, especially in a public forum. 

How many of us would get return business from our own clients if we disrespected them regardless of what we might think in private?


----------



## mk282

Patrick de Caumette @ 3.3.2015 said:


> But as I found out, it starts chocking when the BPM of your tune passes a certain value.
> I am not a programmer, but I assume that passed a certain speed, the script or the computing processing, or Kontakt's capabilities are not fast enough to switch legato types on time. So we get a glitch.
> No big frecking deal.
> You turn off the fast legato option and things are good.
> I didn't know that.
> And despite what Paul and Christian are saying, unless I missed it, nowhere in the manual or in the tutorial does it say: "beyond a certain BPM speed the adaptive legato will choke and your phrase will produce level bumps"




It just takes a bit of thinking to understand it. BPM is an _indirect_ cause, since adaptive legato actually works on millisecond values and not anything tempo related. So of course, 16th notes at 180 are faster than 16th notes at 120 BPM... hence the detection time for "fast" and "run" legato times has to be shortened for it to work correctly at faster tempos!

It's not something that's supposed to be mentioned in the manual, I'd say (manual is supposed to generalize things - as in "you can switch articulations by using these methods... then list the methods, etc."). It's just the way a patch is built - it switches the legato types in two ways - first by played velocity (portamento/fingered/bowed), and then by speed of playing (fast/run). And as I said before, you cannot expect the speed of playing to work exactly the same across ALL tempi!

Since this all is adjustable, it's not really Kontakt's fault that "you get a glitch at faster tempi". Change the speed limits and it will work.


----------



## SPOTS

edhamilton said:


> Almost pulled the trigger on the full BML during the black friday sale. Previous posts from them like the ones in that thread put me off. Now for good.



This is exactly what happened to me with 8-Dio during their Adagio Strings pre-sale campaign. I couldn't stand the arrogance of the company as much in regards with their customers/potential new customers as with the competition. I then decided to forget about Adagio and any other product of their brand, for good.

But this was a whole different story, at least for me.

Good thing is that thanks to 8-Dio I turned to Audiobro and Spitfire shortly after and have been most happy with my choice ever since.


----------



## creativeforge

Patrick de Caumette @ Mon Mar 02 said:


> In the end, I think that no one that was involved in this soap opera is happy about the denouement.
> I know I am not. We kind of temporarily ruined the vibe at VI-Control, hurt each other, pissed off people on both side of the isle, and kind of blemished the perception that people have of us.
> Sometimes, I forget that this place is not my living room, and if I have a bad day, I shouldn't post on impulse.
> I think that there was bad energy on that day.
> But I like all the people involved, so let's be friends.
> SF is a great company.
> We should all leave our egos behind us when we communicate here.
> And I should voice my concerns in a more diplomatic manner.
> 
> I am happy because I resolved the issue that I had with the legato patch, and because I learnt a cool new (very mild) insult:
> You have a massive bee in your bonnet!!! :twisted:



Patrick, lots of respect for this... 

Regards, 

Andre


----------



## TheUnfinished

I really don't know what to make of this anymore...

Let me firstly declare that I know Guy personally, have shared many an irrelevant conversation over a pint. He is excellent company, generous and kind. He can be very passionate on these forums, and this can go both ways, as well as being somewhat relentless in seeking solutions to an issue or endlessly waxing lyrical about something he loves using. 

The banned member of VI Control who according to this *new thread* has been at it for months... I don't get it. It is certainly not reflective of my experience of Guy's contribution to VI Control.

I've had my fair share of run-ins with people on this (*waves at Jay and Adrian!*) but wouldn't consider anything either have done worth even a temporary ban personally.

Also, I have had a number of interactions with Paul and Christian at Spitfire, which have always been unfailingly polite, helpful and enjoyable. Equally, Christian has quite clearly state he has made no request for sanctions against Guy, and both he and Paul have been calm in their responses to all this.

So, what is going on exacty? I really don't know.

And who else has been banned, given that more than one person is referred to as being a frequent pain in the bum in Frederick's post? Anyone? It can't just be Guy can it? 

I don't know whether Piet was banned when he repeatedly slagged of Kirk Hunter's products? Was he? Perhaps a degree of transparency is required that would settle a few nerves and perhaps take the heat out of the situation.

Also, and this seems particularly weird to me, there has been a clear case of defamation in this very thread and absolutely no comment from a moderator. Well... what can we infer from that? It may be an error of judgement. An oversight.

Perhaps we should all just calm down (and stop fuelling the fire, like perhaps I am here), let this business rest and come back to it when we all have clearer heads.

Oh, and one last thing whilst I'm here. To foster a greater sense of community, you have to shape that community proactively to be what you want to see. That means going in to threads, starting threads and speaking to people in a way you would wish to be spoken to and in a way that you feel will assist the progression of understanding and camaraderie.

But this has to happen in the open. Whether you're a long-term member or a newbie, you should not be trying to shape this community in the shadows and behind people's backs. That isn't community, that's politics.

With much love and respect,
Matt


----------



## EastWest Lurker

[quote="TheUnfinished @ Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:04 am"=(*waves at Jay and Adrian!*) but wouldn't consider anything either have done worth even a temporary ban personally.

[/quote]

Well a few years ago I _was_ banned temporarily and I was told that the reason was that I kept arguing my points over and over. I now try to remember that I rarely convince anyone on the fifth statement of my argument that I did not on the first two.

Anyway, whether developer or end user if you take only one thing away from Patrick's last post and this whole megillah, take this:
"It is not what one says, but the way (s)he says it,"


----------



## Cowtothesky

I have nothing but love for all of the developers. But, if I was to start a company in this industry, I would have at least 1 person dedicated to the forums that knows how to communicate in a non-abrasive way. In fact, anytime anyone had an "issue", I would make a video within hours demonstrating how to fix the problem and post it. If there is no fix, then explain why there is no fix and/or make it a priority for an update. I think users who see this would really appreciate a company that responds in a useful way to their customers. Forums are more powerful than magazine ads today, and I'm not sure what companies are dropping to get into Sound on Sound, but it might make more sense to dedicate an employee or 2 with people and technical skills to the forums. 

It does concern me when a company releases so many new products. It gives the perception that they have abandoned their older products. This has always been a problem though… Back in my synth performing days, buying a new synth was a major purchase, like buying a car. If I bought a $3,000 Korg for example and they release a new synth, the support for the older synth would drop tremendously. So, I am constantly looking for companies that prove that our relationship (user and developer) is a lasting relationship and not a one night stand. lol

This is why I was so happy with Omnisphere 2. They did not abandon their base. They are continually making the existing product better and better. This is the kind of support that I like to see in a company and why I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Spectrasonics product.


----------



## AlexandreSafi

That's why man is one of nature's most fascinating creatures, continuously capable of being a part of the most beautiful creative forces, as much as the most destructive ones, just look at history or Greek mythology, yet man will always arrive at the same conclusion, which is there's no worse fate than to be separated from his own kind...


----------



## benmrx

Wait......., Guy was 'banned' from the entire forum?? I knew the thread was locked but didn't realize anyone got banned. That's really too bad that we can't discuss libraries like that. I mean......, where else are we suppose to go when we purchase a library that isn't working for us, or is giving us trouble. Of course asking the developer about certain issues is usually the best place to start, but sometimes the developer has a different workflow than you do, or has a different take on the problem itself. So then you would think you could post a topic here and ask around for tips/tricks in order to get a better grasp of the library in question. And if your looking for tips/tricks regarding a specific library...., then it's pretty hard to do that without bringing up the issues or problems your having....., as your looking for solutions. 

And really..., Guy is/was a wonderful resource here! He is THE definition of 'musicians helping musicians'. He shouldn't be punished IMO for starting a thread asking about his issues with a developer or particular library.


----------



## Ozymandias

> That's why man is one of nature's most fascinating creatures, continuously capable of being a part of the most beautiful creative forces, as much as the most destructive ones, just look at history or Greek mythology, yet man will always arrive at the same conclusion, which is there's no worse fate than to be separated from his own kind...



That's heavy stuff. Makes it sound like Guy has been exiled into a post-apocalyptic VIC wasteland.

He's just in the sin bin for a bit, right?


----------



## Hannes_F

Frederick only gave a temporary timeout. Timeouts can be an opinion to rethink. The thread in question was just a catalyst.

I know this won't be popular but can't help it.


----------



## Mike Greene

TheUnfinished @ Tue Mar 03 said:


> Also, and this seems particularly weird to me, there has been a clear case of defamation in this very thread and absolutely no comment from a moderator. Well... what can we infer from that? It may be an error of judgement. An oversight.


This is a tough thread to comment on as a moderator, because (speaking only for myself) I disagree completely with the actions taken. Just my opinion, but I didn't interpret anything Guy or Patrick said as rude. Or Paul, either. He (as well as Guy and Patrick) can be passionate about things, but . . . as many people have already said, we *want* passion in a developer! 8) 

I'm not comfortable commenting further, but one thing I want to make clear is that Spitfire did *not* ask for any actions to be taken. This was not their doing. No messages or complaints came from them whatsoever. (Unless someone is keeping it secret from me.) So I would hope that no one would hold Spitfire in ill light because of this. Paul and Christian are truly great guys, and they don't deserve that. (And no, they've never given me anything for free, so that's my honest opinion. :mrgreen: )


----------



## Carbs

Should just rename this place "V.I Thought Control" and be done with it.


If forum members like Guy are the ones making moderators lives hell (other than Mike, glad to see a little sensibility from the "administration"), then that should tell you all you need to know about this place.


----------



## AC986

The thing you need to understand and remember when talking with Guy is he gets excitable at times. He's an _excitable_ chap. It's in his nature. I like that. I find that refreshing and highly entertaining sometimes. I come here to be entertained.
Sometimes he's a PITA. But so what? Everyone is.

Never take advantage of Mike's good nature btw. He's a smart guy, he's a handsome guy, he's a good guy. Women all over the world love him. If all the mods were like Mike, this place would be mayhem. 

:mrgreen:


----------



## woodsdenis

Hannes_F @ Tue Mar 03 said:


> Speaking from my point of view Guy Rowland has a history of ever fueling any conflicts between developers vs clients vs forum administration, in a nearly pathological way. Always in the front row when it came to police the mods as if he owned the place. It is his type of personality that makes the moderator job almost impossible. What goes around comes around, so I personally would not miss him much.
> 
> That being said Frederick only gave him a temporary timeout. The thread in question was just a catalyst.
> 
> I know this won't be popular but can't help it.



TBH thats is one of the most ridiculous and personalised posts I have read here yet. You use words like "nearly pathological" are you living on the same planet as the rest of us ?
You sound like you have personal issue with him and are taking great enjoyment at sticking the knife in. To use your own words, your type of personality makes you unbearable to all sane and normal people here. How can you seriously be a moderator when you clearly have such a dislike for someone? Unbiased and even handed moderation are not words in your vocabulary after that rant. You should really consider your position here after that outburst. Yes I have reported it, for whatever good that will do, really disgraceful behaviour, you should be ashamed.


----------



## gpax

I have to agree with Denis. My jaw hit the floor when I read Hannes’ comment. 

I have had very little interaction directly with Guy, though have often found his insight to be helpful. Perhaps there are other histories and contexts that I am not privy to, but I don’t understand Hannes’ need to publicly rebuke - in addition to the action that has already been taken. 

I think it’s highly inappropriate, and does not bode well for VI Control. It’s already a delicate and tough piece of diplomacy as Fredrick has indicated. Why fuel the flames of discord even more at this point? 

Greg


----------



## Stephen Rees

adriancook @ Tue Mar 03 said:


> Sometimes he's a PITA. But so what? Everyone is.



*tut* I'm not. I'm lovely all the time.


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

adriancook @ Tue Mar 03 said:


> If all the mods were like Mike, this place would be mayhem.
> 
> :mrgreen:



Personally, and based on my perception of a guy that I have never met, I suspect that it would be total debauchery... :twisted: o=? o=? o=? >8o


----------



## synergy543

Mike Greene @ Tue Mar 03 said:


> Just my opinion, but I didn't interpret anything Guy or Patrick said as rude. Or Paul, either. He (as well as Guy and Patrick) can be passionate about things, but . . . as many people have already said, we *want* passion... 8)



+1


----------



## Stephen Baysted

That thread was pointless as is this one. It's just another means to flog a dead horse. 

Sorry if I sound like a miserable git  I'm not really, honest, but I do often wonder whether one of the underlying issues in these arguments is that some people may be losing sight of what real string sections sound like. 

In the past I've heard many people complain (about a variety of libraries) that their sustain patches have some kind of 'sucking' when changing notes. And of course, there's the old chestnut - 'bumpy' legato. Or the extremely puzzling one: bumpy looping points in the sustains. If I had either the time, or the inclination, I could point you to myriad examples of 'sucking', 'bumpy legato' and string players actually running out of bow in real life recordings of real strings. But alas, I've got work to do. Well, ok, it's wine o'clock here in Blighty, so I do have a glass of Rioja in hand as I type this, but you get the point. 

But anyway, I once read on here someone complaining about brass tuning in a nameless library as if they somehow expected these instruments to be miraculously equally tempered ... 

I say, go to concert halls or scoring sessions and listen to live orchestras and hear the amazingly beautiful and expressive 'bumpy legato' and the 'sucking sustains' and the players daring to change finger position or bow direction. 

Cheers


----------



## AC986

I bought 5 bottles of wine this evening in Waitrose. I had a £5 off voucher so was damned if I wasn't going to use it.


----------



## procreative

What have I done!

I started this thread just to make a few simple points about a balanced view on 'complaints' and how things need to stay even handed on both sides, and…

It seems to have turned into another slanging match.

Its simple, when you have a problem ask politely, in turn developers respond politely and everyone do not put someone down for lack of knowledge if thats what it is as thats why we come here.

If you don't like a library you should be able to say so as long as you give some valid reasons.

If the developer disagrees, then they should explain why.

Just saying "a library is rubbish" or a developer responding "you're talking bollocks" is just inflammatory. If its due to user error, explain why or write a better user guide.

Last thing with all the complex patches now offered by developers it might be useful to have sections in the manual explaining them. East West did this with theirs and it not only explained what patches did but also what the articulations sounded like/did which for the less classically trained is a very useful aid.


----------



## sin(x)

Stephen Baysted @ 2015-03-03 said:


> Or the extremely puzzling one: bumpy looping points in the sustains.





> string players actually running out of bow in real life recordings of real strings



Those are completely different things.



> But anyway, I once read on here someone complaining about brass tuning in a nameless library as if they somehow expected these instruments to be miraculously equally tempered ...



I don't know who you're referring to, but add me to the list of people who absolutely expect instruments to be “miraculously” tuned to an equal scale when they're put in a sample library, given that a sampler has no way of intonating by ear (esoteric script wizardry not withstanding).


----------



## alextone

adriancook @ Tue Mar 03 said:


> I bought 5 bottles of wine this evening in Waitrose. I had a £5 off voucher so was damned if I wasn't going to use it.



Was this a decent drop of plonk, or bottom shelf industrial strength Chateau De Gorilla? 

:shock:


----------



## Stephen Baysted

adriancook @ Tue Mar 03 said:


> I bought 5 bottles of wine this evening in Waitrose. I had a £5 off voucher so was damned if I wasn't going to use it.



Cheapskate :D


----------



## SeattleComposer

"some people may be losing sight of what real string sections sound like. "
Precisely why I chose to observe the discussion. The best libraries still do not come close to an actual symphony orchestra or live ensemble. Making symphonic mockups is a bit like constructing model train sets in that respect. That said, it is amazing in this day and age is that we have all of the tools to help us imagine and illustrate music for a real score, craft useful "virtual" music for media, and to create unbelievable hybrid work. And it just keeps getting better.


----------



## artsoundz

Hannes_F @ Tue Mar 03 said:


> Speaking from my point of view Guy Rowland has a history of ever fueling any conflicts between developers vs clients vs forum administration, in a nearly pathological way. Always in the front row when it came to police the mods as if he owned the place. It is his type of personality that makes the moderator job almost impossible. What goes around comes around, so I personally would not miss him much.
> 
> That being said Frederick only gave him a temporary timeout. The thread in question was just a catalyst.
> 
> I know this won't be popular but can't help it.



how on earth is this helpful? 
"as if...."


----------



## AC986

Stephen Baysted @ Tue Mar 03 said:


> adriancook @ Tue Mar 03 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I bought 5 bottles of wine this evening in Waitrose. I had a £5 off voucher so was damned if I wasn't going to use it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheapskate :D
Click to expand...


Whaddya mean!

Mostly German actually.


----------



## Jack Weaver

Wow... an artsoundz sighting. 

Haven't seen you around for a long time. 

.


----------



## renegade

Stephen Baysted @ Tue 03 Mar said:


> In the past I've heard many people complain (about a variety of libraries) that their sustain patches have some kind of 'sucking' when changing notes. And of course, there's the old chestnut - 'bumpy' legato. Or the extremely puzzling one: bumpy looping points in the sustains. If I had either the time, or the inclination, I could point you to myriad examples of 'sucking', 'bumpy legato' and string players actually running out of bow in real life recordings of real strings. But alas, I've got work to do. Well, ok, it's wine o'clock here in Blighty, so I do have a glass of Rioja in hand as I type this, but you get the point.



I get your point. However, in real recordings (if good performers) these "errors" always sounds natural and doesn't obstruct the musical flow. Different with samples.

Anyway, I didn't interpret anything Guy or Patrick said as rude either. Patrick overlooked a functionality, so what, could happen to anyone. No big deal. And it got sorted out.
Maybe naive to start the thread in the first place, but...we are here to discuss these things, right? Good and bad, tweaks, tips? I really don't see the problem in that thread. And I do not at all understand the need to ban anyone.


----------



## AlexandreSafi

I'll have a last go, just because, well... 
I think, therefore I "want to exist"!

The great thing i noticed on this forum & issue is that even through argument, and for each new post there is absolutely no shortage of great *logic & passion*, on both sides. This forum is clearly close-to-100% made of very lovely, unique & competent people... 

But within this *logic & passion*, we both have the very best and the very worst thing which can happen...

-The best, in my own eyes, is the knowledge, intelligence/experience generosity, openness to share, the friendships, the respect/admiration, the humor and the loyalty also...

-Some of the less good, in my own eyes, is again the rigorous *logic *& that very *passion*: those unfortunate emotions driving the words, vessel for all sorts of meaning & interpretations, on the page for & by the individual.
We also have the undervaluation of good speech, the understandable pressure we let *money* to be put on us, the sustained emphasis on *justice * to solve solutions, sometimes the loyalty, taking sides, and not letting go, like kids would the next day, because they're not "as logical"...

It seems, to paraphrase Albert Camus, and to a much lesser extent of course, there have been ["*crimes of passion and crimes of logic*" where the boundary between them isn't clearly defined...] 

But of course, at the end of the day, nobody's really a criminal... 
As utopian as this will sound, (well I'm the ultimate idealistic boring cliché of an artist quite frankly) and i always reach the same corny conclusion: 

You either choose "Love" (1. of yourself & 2. of others), the most triumphant force ever, _said ME_!! And you hopefully somehow translate that especially in this case, into your every word you use, say & write as a tool for happiness & progress, or you religiously choose "Reason" and witness, only half-surprisingly, a scenario of separation you wish hadn't be...

Oh i forgot to tell you guys, 
John Lennon sent me! 
All you need is ♥ ♥ ♥ 
and great humor, 
as HZ just did, that really helps too...
People, grow up!!...not... 

How's that for a speech! =o ~o)


----------



## germancomponist




----------



## David Donaldson

All this drama over some very minor issues.

When we started doing soundtrack work the main industry sound module was the E-mu Proteus, which contained some some very questionable sounds. You couldn't record anything into it, it came with sounds but luckily our state of the art reverb unit, the SPX90 let you record your own half second sample into it. It was amazing how many good half second samples we came up with.

We couldn't even sync to picture. One of us would push play on "Master Tracks" and the other would push play on the video player. 
"Yep I think that is going to work, can we see it again?"
"Sure I'll just rewind the video"
I reckon once pictures got digitised and could be taken into Protools, that saved us about a third of the time on any job.
At that time most tv and short films still got final mixed to mono!

And that is not that long ago. We are talking the early 90's

I remember once we put distortion on some drums and the film mixer said "we spent years trying to get rid of sounds like that, why on earth would you add it" he thought it was going to reflect badly on him and had them removed from the final mix after we had gone. It was a pretty weird sounding cue without drums!

We've always embraced the idiosyncrasies of a product, that's often what makes them interesting, I'm not after perfection. 
We had an old Korg Poly six synth that could produce some fantastically unpredictable sounds that even it wasn't able to recreate once it warmed up. It is kind of like Eno's Oblique Strategies cards. When we got stuck we would often turn on the Korg and see what it had to offer. Hardly ever failed, although it did eventually fail fatally!

These days most Orchestral sample libraries are way more perfect than almost any real Orchestra….despite what the orchestra may think.
When doing one of our first orchestra records I asked for another take on a cue. Someone asked me in a challenging way "why" and when I replied "tuning" they all started laughing. I asked the engineer why were they laughing and he said" you said tuning instead of intonation" 
We learnt to hire an orchestral assistant after that as a go-between, orchestras often didn't have the most respect for soundtrack (non serious) composers.

Another time while recording an orchestra at our main orchestral venue we kept thinking this building is making a lot of creaks and noise today which resulted in having to do extra takes to take that into account. While going outside at lunch time we looked up to see a team of workman cleaning the roof with brooms and hoses!!!!!! 

Anyway the point of this nostalgic rave is to point out that if a few "bumps" in looping etc are the worst you guys can come up with we are in amazingly good shape.

And remember developers are selling you tools not talent

I'll now wait for someone to post the "You think you had it hard" Monty Python clip.


----------



## woodsdenis

David Donaldson @ Tue Mar 03 said:


> All this drama over some very minor issues.
> 
> When we started doing soundtrack work the main industry sound module was the E-mu Proteus, which contained some some very questionable sounds. You couldn't record anything into it, it came with sounds but luckily our state of the art reverb unit, the SPX90 let you record your own half second sample into it. It was amazing how many good half second samples we came up with.
> 
> We couldn't even sync to picture. One of us would push play on "Master Tracks" and the other would push play on the video player.
> "Yep I think that is going to work, can we see it again?"
> "Sure I'll just rewind the video"
> I reckon once pictures got digitised and could be taken into Protools, that saved us about a third of the time on any job.
> At that time most tv and short films still got final mixed to mono!
> 
> And that is not that long ago. We are talking the early 90's
> 
> I remember once we put distortion on some drums and the film mixer said "we spent years trying to get rid of sounds like that, why on earth would you add it" he thought it was going to reflect badly on him and had them removed from the final mix after we had gone. It was a pretty weird sounding cue without drums!
> 
> We've always embraced the idiosyncrasies of a product, that's often what makes them interesting, I'm not after perfection.
> We had an old Korg Poly six synth that could produce some fantastically unpredictable sounds that even it wasn't able to recreate once it warmed up. It is kind of like Eno's Oblique Strategies cards. When we got stuck we would often turn on the Korg and see what it had to offer. Hardly ever failed, although it did eventually fail fatally!
> 
> These days most Orchestral sample libraries are way more perfect than almost any real Orchestra….despite what the orchestra may think.
> When doing one of our first orchestra records I asked for another take on a cue. Someone asked me in a challenging way "why" and when I replied "tuning" they all started laughing. I asked the engineer why were they laughing and he said" you said tuning instead of intonation"
> We learnt to hire an orchestral assistant after that as a go-between, orchestras often didn't have the most respect for soundtrack (non serious) composers.
> 
> Another time while recording an orchestra at our main orchestral venue we kept thinking this building is making a lot of creaks and noise today which resulted in having to do extra takes to take that into account. While going outside at lunch time we looked up to see a team of workman cleaning the roof with brooms and hoses!!!!!!
> 
> Anyway the point of this nostalgic rave is to point out that if a few "bumps" in looping etc are the worst you guys can come up with we are in amazingly good shape.
> 
> And remember developers are selling you tools not talent
> 
> I'll now wait for someone to post the "You think you had it hard" Monty Python clip.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo


----------



## chillbot

adriancook @ Tue Mar 03 said:


> I bought 5 bottles of wine this evening in Waitrose. I had a £5 off voucher so was damned if I wasn't going to use it.


In Los Angeles all the major supermarkets give you 30% off if you buy six bottles of booze or vino. And they have these handy 6-pack carrying cases. So if you drink wine at all it's really silly not to buy 6 at a time, as it's essentially the same cost as buying 4 bottles, which is what I normally would have bought without the sale. But if I have 6 bottles of wine in the house, I will wind up drinking them in the same amount of time as if I had 4 bottles. And I'm still going to go to the market the same amount of times. So the ultimate result of the "sale" is not that I save 30%... it's that I spend the same amount but I get roughly 43% more drunk.


----------



## AC986

My dear fellow. This is German wine. German.

We don't drink it. We use it for cooking.


----------



## creativeforge

adriancook @ Tue Mar 03 said:


> My dear fellow. This is German wine. German.
> 
> We don't drink it. We use it for cooking.



:shock:


----------



## Mike Greene

adriancook @ Tue Mar 03 said:


> My dear fellow. This is German wine. German.
> 
> We don't drink it. We use it for cooking.


You cook with it??? I thought it was just for flushing the radiator.


----------



## chillbot

I've never understood using your crap wine for cooking... cooking is too important to me... why would you want your sauce to taste like wine you wouldn't even drink?


----------



## AC986

Jesus H Christ!

After my wife's cooked anything, you're lucky if you still have a sense of taste.

You Americans are so spoilt!


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

There are some excellent German Pinots to be found. I will begin to look for some - thanks for the inspiration.


----------



## AC986

Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Mar 03 said:


> There are some excellent German Pinots to be found. I will begin to look for some



And the very very best of luck with that. All good wishes go before you!


----------



## EastWest Lurker

Wait a minute this is unfair. The Germans are to wine what Saudi Arabia is to scotch whisky


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

EastWest Lurker @ 3/3/2015 said:


> Germans are to wine what Saudi Arabia is to scotch whisky



Speaking of which:

http://natgeotv.com.au/tv/banged-up-abroad/episode.aspx?id=2910 (http://natgeotv.com.au/tv/banged-up-abr ... px?id=2910)


----------



## kitekrazy

adriancook @ Tue Mar 03 said:


> My dear fellow. *This is German wine. *German.
> 
> We don't drink it. We use it for cooking.



Isn't that an oxymoron?


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

I think that this thread is on a much better track now...


----------



## chillbot

You guys are all very insulting to german wine developers and should probably be banned.

(Back on topic.)


----------



## EastWest Lurker

chillbot @ Tue Mar 03 said:


> You guys are all very insulting to german wine developers and should probably be banned.



Well then they should make better wines. The commercials show people drinking them and enjoying them and clearly it is very misleading as only a German knows how to enjoy them. but they don't disclose that Also, they imply that they pair well with food and in my view they do not, although I really know nothing about good food or wine. 

Also, I think it is wrong that we cannot drink from the bottle but then get our money back.


----------



## AlexandreSafi

Das' wat' am talkin' about!!!...


----------



## chillbot

I am drinking Mezzacorona pinot grigio and it is very chilled and very tasty on a Tuesday afternoon at 4pm because I can and because why not and because I think it pairs very well with evolution world percussion 2.0 which is a brilliant library, btw.


----------



## José Herring

Wine is for sissies. Germans drink lager and ale!


----------



## marclawsonmusic

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Mar 03 said:


> Well then they should make better wines. The commercials show people drinking them and enjoying them and clearly it is very misleading as only a German knows how to enjoy them. but they don't disclose that Also, they imply that they pair well with food and in my view they do not, although I really know nothing about good food or wine.
> 
> Also, I think it is wrong that we cannot drink from the bottle but then get our money back.


OK, this gets post-of-the-day in my opinion. :lol:


----------



## artsoundz

Jack Weaver @ Tue Mar 03 said:


> Wow... an artsoundz sighting.
> 
> Haven't seen you around for a long time.
> 
> .


Hey Jack!
Yeah- been off planet for awhile.


----------



## Jaap

Dunno.... which feels more natural to you

A german with wine






or with beer


----------



## artsoundz

Beer? What beer? I don't see a beer!?


----------



## Jaap

artsoundz @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> Beer? What beer? I don't see a beer!?



Yeah there are 2 bumps making the transition to spot the beer not as smooth as it should be :mrgreen:


----------



## Udo

Jaap @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> Dunno.... which feels more natural to you
> 
> A german with wine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or with beer




Judging by the expression on both faces, they're drinking under duress. The taste appears to be horrible. They should try some Australian wine and beer.


----------



## Hannes_F

@ woodsdenis, gpax

FYI I was not involved in the banning nor in any of the threads in question. However I am not as surprised about the long term development of things as are others here, that is what I am saying.

I have edited my first comment in order to de-personalize it.


----------



## tokatila

Jaap @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> artsoundz @ Wed Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Beer? What beer? I don't see a beer!?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah there are 2 bumps making the transition to spot the beer not as smooth as it should be :mrgreen:
Click to expand...


I would also worry about triggering fast articulation with a clear bump. But as we learned slowing BPM keeps things smooth since it alternates between fingered and bowed articulations.


----------



## jonathanwright

sin(x) @ Tue Mar 03 said:


> Stephen Baysted @ 2015-03-03 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But anyway, I once read on here someone complaining about brass tuning in a nameless library as if they somehow expected these instruments to be miraculously equally tempered ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know who you're referring to, but add me to the list of people who absolutely expect instruments to be “miraculously” tuned to an equal scale when they're put in a sample library, given that a sampler has no way of intonating by ear (esoteric script wizardry not withstanding).
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


I'm not sure if it's me being referred to in this case, but I once did ask if anyone was having tuning issues with a brass library when playing it with a string library from the same developer.

I was playing a brass/strings unison line which when reached a particular note was very noticeably out of tune, most likely due to the tuning variations in each library heading in opposite directions.

My client was with me at the time and the face he pulled said everything.

It wasn't the end of the world, I tweaked the line a little to avoid the note and it was fine as we were on a deadline, but it was almost a case of switching to another library which would have been a shame.

I love the libraries and developer concerned and use them in all of my projects, so I don't think it hurts to bring up these issues when they arise.

After all, if it's my mistake I want to _know_ it's my mistake, as I'm sure developers like to know of any adjustments they might need to make in updates.


----------



## Hannes_F

jonathanwright @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> I was playing a brass/strings unison line which when reached a particular note was very noticeably out of tune, most likely due to the tuning variations in each library heading in opposite directions.
> 
> [...]
> 
> It wasn't the end of the world, I tweaked the line a little to avoid the note



Jonathan,
a practical question here: couldn't you have used a small pitch wheel automation or finetune the audio by ear within your DAW?


----------



## jonathanwright

Hannes_F @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> jonathanwright @ Wed Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was playing a brass/strings unison line which when reached a particular note was very noticeably out of tune, most likely due to the tuning variations in each library heading in opposite directions.
> 
> [...]
> 
> It wasn't the end of the world, I tweaked the line a little to avoid the note
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jonathan,
> a practical question here: couldn't you have used a small pitch wheel automation or finetune the audio by ear within your DAW?
Click to expand...


In this instance I didn't, as it was a sustained note and the sample varied very slightly in pitch (which would have been fine in most instances but in this case didn't work) I did attempt a bounce to audio but it didn't make much difference.


----------



## artsoundz

Jaap @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> artsoundz @ Wed Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Beer? What beer? I don't see a beer!?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah there are 2 bumps making the transition to spot the beer not as smooth as it should be :mrgreen:
Click to expand...


Right. I see the beer now. I was focusing on the two firm, white baloons.


----------



## Hannes_F

Carbs @ Tue Mar 03 said:


> Should just rename this place "V.I Thought Control" and be done with it.



@Carbs
Before you come to a conclusion you should consider that I never edited or or censored a single one of G.'s words and I am not aware that any other mod or admin did so until this latest event. So I think you are not painting the right picture here.


----------



## sinkd

tokatila @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> Jaap @ Wed Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> artsoundz @ Wed Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Beer? What beer? I don't see a beer!?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah there are 2 bumps making the transition to spot the beer not as smooth as it should be :mrgreen:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I would also worry about triggering fast articulation with a clear bump. But as we learned slowing BPM keeps things smooth since it alternates between fingered and bowed articulations.
Click to expand...


Are you referring to premature articulation? That certainly might be a problem for some...


----------



## Jaap

Damn..... we need more tits and beer. We are getting on topic again! Be distracted people o-[][]-o


----------



## blougui

Are we talking about how to sort wine and les gateaux *, here ?

- Erik

*French words for "the cookies". Pronounce le-ga-to. Eat at will.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

Jaap @ 4/3/2015 said:


> Damn..... we need more tits and beer. We are getting on topic again! Be distracted people o-[][]-o



Wow. Massive amount of hair dye!


----------



## blougui

After erring on diz Kolozal green moutainz topped by eternal snowz, I wonder what this "Next" tab on the right has to offer. Delicate valleys of delightment ? Dark Moïras ? A lake as polished as a mirror to stare at only to find sparkling echos of our fantasies ? 
What ? WHAT ???

Erik


----------



## EastWest Lurker

And we wonder why there are not more women here?


----------



## sin(x)

EastWest Lurker @ 2015-03-04 said:


> And we wonder why there are not more women here?



Agreed. (There's a first time for everything  ). Maybe get your boners off the table, guys?


----------



## tokatila

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> And we wonder why there are not more women here?



They busy serving beer? ~o)

Is this thread in hand?


----------



## WhiteNoiz

I think we are moving in circle jerks.


----------



## Kejero

I went through the original thread expecting to waste a few minutes of time, mostly skimming through it. (Un)fortunately, that thread had some interesting info, so it took a little longer. I was actually fascinated by the eh 'Mystery of the Legato Bumps', and it was very interesting to see it being solved.

Almost a shame it took a thread like that to achieve this. Just the thought: a user who'se never used the legato feature because the instrument wasn't behaving for him as expected. How many users have simply shelved a tool because they didn't know how to make it work?

In this thread, besides the b*ll*cks flinging, some people put their heads together to figure out why one person didn't have the same problem as another person, while they were apparently, at first sight, playing the same instrument the same way. And they finally figured out the culprit in the script that was causing it, and solved the problem.
Now _that_'s the kind of thread I want to see.

Sorry for the on-topic.


----------



## JohnG

Kejero @ 4th March 2015 said:


> In this thread, besides the b*ll*cks flinging, some people put their heads together to figure out why one person didn't have the same problem as another person, while they were apparently, at first sight, playing the same instrument the same way. And they finally figured out the culprit in the script that was causing it, and solved the problem.



Except that's not true. 

It is not the script, but the user who was causing the problem by pasting a midi track from one library and expecting it to work with another.


----------



## re-peat

TheUnfinished @ Tue Mar 03 said:


> (...) I don't know whether Piet was banned when he repeatedly slagged of Kirk Hunter's products? Was he? (...)


I have never been banned for anything I said about Kirk Hunter. Been banned for lots of other reasons though. Most often for going against people who produce no discernible difference in result whether they activate their brain or their cloaca. But for my words of wisdom on the fascinating subject of Kirk Hunter? No, never. Which, in light of what happened over the weekend, seems indeed rather strange now (and is not without relevance in light of what follows below): the Spitfire-thread reads indeed like an harmless, good-natured exchange carried out with the utmost cordiality, compared to some of those KH-threads, doesn’t it?

I want to add though, if I may venture this final contribution of mine, that this past weekend’s turmoil really doesn’t bode well for V.I.’s future, no matter what fancy forum upgrade may be in the making. Things were pretty bleak around here already, but with what occurred a few days ago, we now have reached a new and very disturbing low, I find. And it’s a black hole from where there’s no coming back. The V.I. that was — and that everyone who experienced it will reminisce about with fondness until their dying day — has now become a complete impossibility, the dreaded NS-ificitation of V.I. being now finalized and firmly in place.

See, to me, this whole unpleasant affair isn’t about Spitfire’s or about Guy (as the author of some, supposedly, impermissible outrage, I mean), nor about mistakes that have or haven’t been made on either side of that fence. No, this is about: 

(1)
This forum’s complete lack of appreciation for those members who make a difference here. Perhaps it needs reminding (which is already disappointing in itself), but the strength and unique appeal of this place doesn’t come from developers or donators, nor from its well-behaving crowd of largely interchangeable members, no, it comes from a few very committed, passionate and hard-working individuals who do all they can, day in day out, to make this a living, interesting and attractive forum. 
And like him or not, but Guy has certainly proven to be one of those. Yes, he slipped on occasion, true, he misjudged a few things now and then, and sure, there may have been a bit too much Rowlandizing at times, but above all and through it all, there was always a passionate, generous and often thought-stimulating fellow member, and one who was clearly overflowing with a sincere desire and intention to make V.I. the best possible place for all of us. A blood-donor to an ailing V.I., that’s the sort of member Guy was. Sadly, an extreme rarity.
Before anyone thinks him and me are bosom pals: we’re nothing of the sort, in fact, we disagreed much more often and more strongly than we ever agreed on most anything. But even so, I recognize (and appreciate) in Guy one of the last remaining flowers-in-bloom in an otherwise increasingly barren and withered garden that V.I. has sadly become in recent years. And flowers like that shouldn't be trampled on, even if they occasionally spread what some people might consider an unpleasant scent. Too many of V.I.’s most interesting flowers have suffered that fate already — or have decided to simply stop blooming on their own account — and V.I., provided it still has any intention of being a meaningful meeting-place for musicians, simply can't afford to loose any more. If it does, it makes a fatal mistake. As its future will now prove.

Few of us here have shown more affection for this place than Guy has, and even fewer have displayed such relentless initiative to breath new life in V.I., tirelessly coming up with fresh ideas to keep some of its fast dwindling appeal, lustre and integrity intact. Guy, I’m sure, used to log in at V.I., every single day, with complete commitment to leave the place in a better shape than it was when he entered it. And we all benefitted from it. And yet, without an ounce of consideration, the administration chooses to treat him with utter disappreciation and a complete lack of respect and gratitude for everything he’s done. Even if Guy returns, things will never be the same again for him here. Because something’s broken now, beyond repair. His wings have been clipped. And that is a terrible outcome of this awful episode, and a great loss for V.I. And the fact that all of this was possible and allowed to happen in the first place, makes it doubly disturbing.

Even if the Spitfire-thread was a bad idea of his (a verdict with which I agree), which turned into an even worse one as it went along, Guy most definitely didn’t deserve any of this. What he deserves, at the very least, is an apology. And a sincere thank you. From all of us.

(2)
Secondly: the closing of the Spitfire-thread and the silencing of Guy sends out, once again, all the wrong signals. Signals that V.I., in its current state of decline, can do well without. The administration may promise us a tolerant and open platform for informative, honest and stimulating discussion all they want — and I don’t doubt the sincerity of that promise — but what they’ve managed to do above all with their strategy of reprimanding, closing threads, warning off people and thoughtless siding with their favourite developers, is create a forum that is not only the very opposite of what V.I. used to be, but also betrays all the convictions and dedication that allowed this community to rise and become that magnificent marvel of creativity and interaction it once was.

V.I.’s former uniqueness — the very quality that turned it into such a wonderful and important place for nearly a decade — used to be its undivided embrace of passioned, outspoken individuals, many of them highly knowledgeable and with remarkable generosity for sharing, edifying and helping others. With no hint of censorship beyond a commonly shared understanding that things shouldn’t get too much out of hand. Sure, things erupted sometimes in unpleasant clashes and ugly conflicts (and I admit to being one of the worst offenders in this respect), but much more relevant than that : the place had a soul, it throbbed with love for creativity and respect for singularity. It stimulated, challenged, elevated and inspired. And it felt bloody great to be a part of it. (I, for one, will forever be grateful for those good years, here at V.I.)

But all of that is gone now. Well, most of it anyway. What we have today is beige mass of well-behaving mice, virtually impossible to distinguish between, engaging in one dull discussion after another, afraid to speak their minds, lacking all courage to refuse to dissolve in safe communal anonimity, and contributing little else than meaningless, tiresome phrases which are already out-of-date before they’re submitted. (There are still a few exceptions of course, thank God.)
Amateurism appears to be the new norm, ignorant beginners share their lazyness without any inhibition yet feel entitled to be taken instantly seriously, and the all-overriding inclination seems to be a wish to conform to a sickening standard of pseudo-polite, artificial civility. The atmosphere has become ever more censorious and paranoid, and certain developers demand increasing control of what is allowed and what is not. 
And I can’t begin to describe how much I detest the now established mode of communication which V.I. has adopted as its new Lingua Franca since a few years: tame, safe, insipid, wobbly with spinelessness and apologetic even before anything has been said that might need apologizing for. No more interesting essays, no more thought-provoking debate (except an occasional one about political and/or social issues), much less reliable expertise than there used to be (the difference is staggering), no longer that maverick sense of adventure … in short: one shade of grey where there used to be a vibrant explosion of often clashing but just as often gorgeously harmonious colour.

But I don’t blame the mice, nor the membership as a whole, I look higher up. Sorry, but I do. And that includes at least one half of the mods (past and present). I’ve been a mod myself on another forum, so I happen to know what the job entails. There’s three or four here for whom I have the greatest respect and eternal affection, but the others? An uninterested bunch of lazy, complacent absentees who together have not contributed a fraction of what members like Guy have contributed. They should be ashamed of themselves.

And a few other people who should be ashamed of themselves: the lot in the posts above, participating in the insensitive exhibition of total imbecility which is the pseudo-merry, deeply unfunny and extremely inappropriate chit-chat about drinks and wine, made even less digestable by all the infantile innuendo. And that at a time like this. 
John found the Spitfire-thread disgusting, well, I consider this a million times more revolting. A painful, embarrassing showcase of V.I. at its most hypocritical and inconsiderate. One of our fellow members is lying seriously hurt in the ditch, and has been gagged for all the wrong and totally unjust reasons, and furthermore, this place is now completely in the stranglehold of fear for speaking critically and candidly — in short, there could be no worse time for shallow and childish jollity — but here they are: V.I.’s regular band of merry morons, including a few who are usually the first to preach and lecture us about respect, tact and decency, but have now apparently no problem whatsoever to shamelessly start a stupid dipso-fest. Only moments after one of our own — a member, no less, who spared no effort to preserve the last remaining traces of integrity, quality and appeal of this forum — has been undeservedly cast aside and forced to bite the dust with irreparable wounds inflicted on him. 

Deeply appalling, all of this, I find.

I notice that the muscles of my middle-finger are still splendidly operational. Proudly erect, it salutes you.

_


----------



## EastWest Lurker

As usual, Piet makes a cogent and passionate argument for his point of view.

And as usual, I respectfully disagree


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

FWIW, I can say that I've been reading about the 'good old days' of VI-C for years. I too respect Guy, but he's not being banned for life! And Piet, your insights will forever be tainted by my memories of your vicious bile. IMO, this place will always be a work-in-progress, with mistakes and succeses. It remains a vibrant, colourful, childish, generous, combative community.


----------



## HardyP

Even if I don´t want to make the general tone and wording of Piet´s to my own, but I think this sentence is the feeling of the mast majority over here:


re-peat @ 2015-03-04 said:


> the Spitfire-thread reads indeed like an harmless, good-natured exchange carried out with the utmost cordiality, compared to some of those KH-threads, doesn’t it?


...and not only KH, but others (ew), too.

If Frederick is really consistent in what he is saying/doing (which is his own right. no probe with that), then because of his "seeing us in court"-fears he has to lock all these threads, including this one - because of the german vine!
Just imagine - the german http://www.dwv-online.de/en/about-us.html (Weinbauverband) is MUCH bigger than all sample devs of this and the other world, and certainly has won at least twice more prizes than all the industry AND ew altogether!!

Edit: sorry for the html mismatch earlier… and just to mention: good to see you online, Guy !


----------



## Hannes_F

Piet,

by and large I can agree with much of what you wrote.

I see cause and effect in action between:

(1)


re-peat @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> Yes, he slipped on occasion, ... sure, there may have been a bit too much Rowlandizing at times





re-peat @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> Even if the Spitfire-thread was a bad idea of his (a verdict with which I agree)





re-peat @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> things erupted sometimes in unpleasant clashes and ugly conflicts (and I admit to being one of the worst offenders in this respect)



and (2)



re-peat @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> strategy of reprimanding, closing threads, warning off people and thoughtless siding with their favourite developers



and then (3)



re-peat @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> new Lingua Franca since a few years: tame, safe, insipid, wobbly with spinelessness and apologetic even before anything has been said that might need apologizing for. No more interesting essays, no more thought-provoking debate (except an occasional one about political and/or social issues), much less reliable expertise than there used to be



It is only logical, and it is an unfortunate chain of degradation. But where did it start?
Users, especially knowledgeable users, have the same responsibility for the forum as the administration imo.

Unto another topic:

We have been sometimes in conflict and discussion about the 


re-peat @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> members who make a difference here


and how to deal with them if they go over the top. If there were just a fine tuning knob at some of them to tone them down by 10% at times life would be easier. In the end in most cases no action is taken at all ... I think I did not censor or edit _anything _within the last year. But sometimes it happens.


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

JohnG @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> Kejero @ 4th March 2015 said:
> 
> 
> 
> In this thread, besides the b*ll*cks flinging, some people put their heads together to figure out why one person didn't have the same problem as another person, while they were apparently, at first sight, playing the same instrument the same way. And they finally figured out the culprit in the script that was causing it, and solved the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Except that's not true.
> 
> It is not the script, but the user who was causing the problem by pasting a midi track from one library and expecting it to work with another.
Click to expand...


John, with all due respect, as a moderator here, you are not doing a very good job at letting this whole issue go away.

And on the top of it, what you are saying is totally erroneous.
Maybe you didn't read the whole thread, or maybe you are trying so hard to be right that you refuse to see things for what they are.

The V1 legato performance palette (1+3) is supposed to work out of the box and intelligently select a legato type based, among other things, on velocity and time between notes/speed.
The fact that there was a bump has NOTHING to do with a MIDI file that you erroneously claim is used.
I recorded the ET line using that patch. I DIDN'T use a MIDI file to make it choke.
The speed bump was due to the fact that the BPM speed of my session was beyond the range at which the script has enough time to smoothly switch to another legato type, or possibly because at a higher BPM it now thought that part of the phrase needed the fast legato type instead of the finger legato.
PERIOD.

No bulls^%t about using a secret, poisoned MIDI file please. 
This is ridiculous, and I let it go the first time around, but since you continue with this allegation, I can't let you do this.

Other people verified that the patch reacted this way under those conditions.
Get over it!
I also got a lecture because I used the same MIDI file to compare two products.
And yes, I am aware that it isn't fair sometimes to do that.
But in this case, there was no CC1 data in that file, save for an initial mp dynamic default value.
And since I recorded that MIDI track using Sable, if anything, the one at a disadvantage would have been LASS, since I rendered a MIDI file from the Sable track and assigned it to LASS. As it turned out, both reads were fine, because of the lack of CC1 info in the file...
Not that hard to understand, is it?
What was not fair in retrospect, was the fact that the volume bump that was displayed in the Sable examples could easily be eradicated, which at the time I wasn't aware of.
So comparing the two libraries wasn't fair for that reason.
I think that I have apologized enough about that fact by now...

The other fact that I can't help noticing is that the bump was an easy fix, but that it took a few competent guys a whole day to figure it out. So maybe the issue is more complicated that it appears to be. Maybe it is system based (PC, W7, Cubase7.5 here)
since some people didn't experience the issue in the same conditions.

But please, don't blame it on a MIDI file!

You were disgusted by that thread, and I am appalled at your over reaction!


----------



## JohnG

Patrick, we disagree. I feel you continue to mischaracterise what happened, including with this most recent post.


----------



## AC986

Stephen Rees @ Tue Mar 03 said:


> adriancook @ Tue Mar 03 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes he's a PITA. But so what? Everyone is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *tut* I'm not. I'm lovely all the time.
Click to expand...


Of course you are my darling!!!!!!! :mrgreen: 

I get the feeling that you're working hard at the moment on an album Steve. Am I right?

I generally am. :lol:


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

JohnG @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> Patrick, we disagree. I feel you continue to mischaracterise what happened, including with this most recent post.



Then please, by any means, explain to me how my MIDI track, aside from the conditions described above, in any way has something to do with the bump issue of that patch...


----------



## sin(x)

As a pathological lurker I've been leeching off this forum much more than I've given back in past years, so I'm not really in a position to bang my shoe on the table. Still, I gotta admit Piet's little manifest has inspired me to try and bring my thoughts on the matter into a halfway coherent form, so take his for what you will.

I'm noticing that with every new year of my life, I grow more and more contemptuous of what I'd most fittingly describe as McKinsey speak – the kind of pathologically noncommital, pre-cut mode of communication that hordes of business consultants have brought upon the world over the course of the past three decades, born out of the desire to be able to warp, spin and reinterpret every single bit of information at will, for an indefinite span of time after it has been put out. Not taking a stance has become such an overwhelmingly successful strategy in the corporate world that it has infected everything around it including politics, media, and entertainment. But what troubles me most is that I feel that we've been surrounded by this thinking for so long that we're adapting to it, and subconsciously incorporating it into the way we conduct ourselves. And it disturbs me. For me it's like a sticky, beige goo that spreads like a mold and suffocates everything that is honest and real until all that's left is a barren landscape of shape- and featureless, identical blobs that are guaranteed not to offend, provoke, or inspire anyone or anything.

That's why the hair on my neck stands up whenever I witness people being reprimanded for speaking their mind, and whenever there appears to be encouraged consent that non-confrontational conduct should have priority over everything else. Other than Piet, I don't really percieve the issue mainly as an abuse of power from above, though – for me it seems to be at least as much, maybe more, about self-censorship and tag-along behavior within the community. But regardless of whether it's indoctrinated or willingly absorbed, I'm firmly convinced that this kind of thinking results in a culture that discourages any real discourse in favor of exchanging inanities for the sake of it. Which is safe and evidently good for business, but also flies in the face of what interesting and constructive human interaction, at least in my opinion, should be – a messy supercollider of different ideas and opinions whose real value lies in discovering the new particles that are generated by the collisions, not in watching the pretty beams go by. No collisions, no new particles. (I hope nobody here moonlights as a physicist and calls me out on that threadbare analogy).

In short, I wish there was more courage to embrace the kind of thing that happened in the deleted thread. Some users were unhappy with aspects of a developer's products and voiced their discontent, some more diplomatically, some less. Developer felt some of the points were unfair and posted a rebuttal. Some others felt some of the points were unfair and called the original posters out on them. Others agreed with the original posters. _Everyone_ had a chance to listen to all sides and make up their minds about who's right, who's wrong, who's uninformed, and who's a dick. In my book, *everything* in this scenario added value to the forum, and yet it was obliterated and the original poster given a slap on the wrist for posting in the first place. That's a shame.


----------



## Stephen Rees

@Adrian: I'm 'resting' at the moment as they say in the acting biz.

'Resting' being my natural state.


----------



## AC986

Stephen Rees @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> @Adrian: I'm 'resting' at the moment as they say in the acting biz.
> 
> 'Resting' being my natural state.



Thats no good. You're wasting your talents. 

And I hate being wrong. >8o


----------



## Stephen Rees

@Adrian: Alas I foolishly wrote one too many celesta and pizzicato strings pieces. One day a particularly well plucked violin line caused me to snap, and I had to be removed to a rehab unit for pizzicato saturated composers where I'm doing cold turkey. I'm only allowed to write flowing legato string lines (not even allowed spiccato). Aaaarghh!

We have limited internet access here, but they serve Cadbury's mini eggs for tea. On the whole I think I'm actually happier, although not looking forward to Easter, when Cadbury's mini eggs will disappear once again from the shops until Boxing Day. I'm stocking up….


----------



## zacnelson

Cadbury's are the greatest chocolate in the universe, I honestly no longer even bother with any other manufacturer. As a chocaholic I've tried everything available but I keep coming back to Cadbury


----------



## JohnG

Dear friends,

Patrick and I have spoken. While we don't agree on everything, we do agree that there have been misunderstandings. I now understand the process that Patrick had followed in creating his examples. We have our own ideas about how this could have been misconstrued, not only by me but by others.

In any event, all of this reminds us that it is incredibly difficult to maintain full free speech, on the one hand, and still make v.i. a place where developers feel comfortable participating, on the other hand.

This, in our view, is an important issue. If there is no moderation at all, we will not have any developers here. But some view _any_ moderation as a problem.

All online communities face this question and we will continue to wrestle with it here, no doubt.

[edit: moderation also fulfills other needs, as noted in the rules of the forum]


----------



## EastWest Lurker

JohnG @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> This, in our view, is an important issue. If there is no moderation at all, we will not have any developers here. But some view _any_ moderation as a problem.
> 
> All online communities face this question and we will continue to wrestle with it here, no doubt.



IMHO, the forum that gets the delicate balance exactly right is the Logic Pro Help forum.


----------



## Daryl

JohnG @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> In any event, all of this reminds us that it is incredibly difficult to maintain full free speech, on the one hand, and still make v.i. a place where developers feel comfortable participating, on the other hand.


I agree. However, the developers need to play ball as well. There are a few things that they need to understand, IMO (and this is not aimed at any developer in particular).

1) If a product is good, it is highly likely that some of the users will be more accomplished musicians than the product creators.
2) If someone says they don't like a product, it is highly irritating to have the developer copy and paste reviews with the opposite opinion, as if to say that the user's opinion can't be worth anything, because the product got good reviews.
3) If someone doesn't like a product, it is of no help to know which current Hollywood hacks think it's fine.
4) If a user doesn't like a product, don't go to the user's Website and then comment that their music would sound better if they used said developer's products instead of what they were actually using.

D


----------



## gpax

Hannes_F @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> @ woodsdenis, gpax
> 
> FYI I was not involved in the banning nor in any of the threads in question. However I am not as surprised about the long term development of things as are others here, that is what I am saying.
> 
> I have edited my first comment in order to de-personalize it.


Thanks for this thoughtful response, Hannes. I recognize you were trying to convey a broader rationale than what some (like me) might be aware of, such as Frederick had done in his post.


----------



## EastWest Lurker

Daryl @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> I agree. However, the developers need to play ball as well. There are a few things that they need to understand, IMO (and this is not aimed at any developer in particular).
> 
> 1) If a product is good, it is highly likely that some of the users will be more accomplished musicians than the product creators.



Not with Nick and T. J.


----------



## Daryl

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> Daryl @ Wed Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. However, the developers need to play ball as well. There are a few things that they need to understand, IMO (and this is not aimed at any developer in particular).
> 
> 1) If a product is good, it is highly likely that some of the users will be more accomplished musicians than the product creators.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not with Nick and T. J.
Click to expand...

Well, that's a matter for discussion. Notice I said "musician" not computer sequencer. :wink: 

D


----------



## Hannes_F

I was about to write a theory of mine:

Praise yourself lucky if you live in circumstances where you can have 95% of free speech and 5 % of restrictions due to convention, civilness and lawfulness. It can hardly be better than that. If you imperatively insist on even using that latest 5% then chances are that you overdo things and step within the zone of others. This will then provoke more administration, more rules, more restrictions - for everybody.

It can happen then that you begin to fight against these restrictions and make that fight an issue for itself, but as a consequence everything will go even worse. Administration will get sharper and on the other hand general speech will become fearful and restrict itself to the undangerous lower 50 % (the common denominator).

So those that constantly push the border of provoking speech have their responsibility too, but mostly they don't realize it.

I see that in this forum we are in the middle of such a process since years and if it was not a sad thing it would make a very interesting study topic.

I agree with this



sin(x) @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> I grow more and more contemptuous of what I'd most fittingly describe as McKinsey speak – the kind of pathologically noncommital, pre-cut mode of communication that hordes of business consultants have brought upon the world



and this



JohnG said:


> In any event, all of this reminds us that it is incredibly difficult to maintain full free speech, on the one hand, and still make v.i. a place where developers feel comfortable participating, on the other hand.


----------



## kb123

Daryl @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> JohnG @ Wed Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> In any event, all of this reminds us that it is incredibly difficult to maintain full free speech, on the one hand, and still make v.i. a place where developers feel comfortable participating, on the other hand.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. However, the developers need to play ball as well. There are a few things that they need to understand, IMO (and this is not aimed at any developer in particular).
> 
> 1) If a product is good, it is highly likely that some of the users will be more accomplished musicians than the product creators.
> 2) If someone says they don't like a product, it is highly irritating to have the developer copy and paste reviews with the opposite opinion, as if to say that the user's opinion can't be worth anything, because the product got good reviews.
> 3) If someone doesn't like a product, it is of no help to know which current Hollywood hacks think it's fine.
> 4) If a user doesn't like a product, don't go to the user's Website and then comment that their music would sound better if they used said developer's products instead of what they were actually using.
> 
> D
Click to expand...


Developers have a limited number of options available to them in order to balance an argument, and the above list are some of them, so I can see why it happens.

VI-C has been around for a while now, the whole dynamic of the "samples" industry has changed in that time. Its more mature and has evolved in many ways since its early days. Its no surprise then that the general dynamic has changed too. Nothing ever stays the same for good or bad, so VI-C needs to evolve too to stay relevant, viable and current.

All these things will end up finding a balance - it may not be to everyone's taste, but that's life


----------



## EastWest Lurker

Daryl @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daryl @ Wed Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. However, the developers need to play ball as well. There are a few things that they need to understand, IMO (and this is not aimed at any developer in particular).
> 
> 1) If a product is good, it is highly likely that some of the users will be more accomplished musicians than the product creators.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not with Nick and T. J.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well, that's a matter for discussion. Notice I said "musician" not computer sequencer. :wink:
> 
> D
Click to expand...


Trust me, as an orchestrator and composer even just with score paper, T.J. mops the floor with almost everyone who will ever buy an EW product. And Nick is a very knowledgeable and talented musician away from a computer as well so that is true for him.


----------



## Daryl

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> Trust me, as an orchestrator and composer even just with score paper, T.J. mops the floor with almost everyone who will ever buy an EW product.


Yes, I would agree with that.

D


----------



## ryanstrong

JohnG @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> If there is no moderation at all, we will not have any developers here.



Why is moderation based on developers attendance? To quote VI's moto "musicians helping musicians". Not "developers helping musicians".

Not suggesting we don't have moderation, but not understanding this frame of reference.


----------



## José Herring

Patrick de Caumette @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> The V1 legato performance palette (1+3) is supposed to work out of the box and intelligently select a legato type based, among other things, on velocity and time between notes/speed......



Oh c'mon Patrick you are far too good and far too experienced to be duped by that line of reasoning. When has any product anywhere worked "out of the box". I pretty much gave up that idea after buying my first big library, EWQLSO, and their claims of "sounds great out of the box" and "needs no mixing".


----------



## woodsdenis

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> JohnG @ Wed Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This, in our view, is an important issue. If there is no moderation at all, we will not have any developers here. But some view _any_ moderation as a problem.
> 
> All online communities face this question and we will continue to wrestle with it here, no doubt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMHO, the forum that gets the delicate balance exactly right is the Logic Pro Help forum.
Click to expand...


Totally agree with that one Jay. Very on the ball with help and advice and by far the best DAW forum on the net. Why is that in your opinion?


----------



## EastWest Lurker

woodsdenis @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JohnG @ Wed Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This, in our view, is an important issue. If there is no moderation at all, we will not have any developers here. But some view _any_ moderation as a problem.
> 
> All online communities face this question and we will continue to wrestle with it here, no doubt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMHO, the forum that gets the delicate balance exactly right is the Logic Pro Help forum.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Totally agree with that one Jay. Very on the ball with help and advice and by far the best DAW forum on the net. Why is that in your opinion?
Click to expand...


Because David and his mods and 98% of the members are all on the same page. We want it to be "Logic users helping other Logic users" and do not want it to be home to anti-Apple rants, or discourteous behavior.

I have only seen a handful of instances where someone was told to take a hike and when it happened, virtually nobody thought it was the wrong decision.

But of course it is not a forum where developers participate as developers per se', only as Logic users if they are Logic users.


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

josejherring @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> Patrick de Caumette @ Wed Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The V1 legato performance palette (1+3) is supposed to work out of the box and intelligently select a legato type based, among other things, on velocity and time between notes/speed......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh c'mon Patrick you are far too good and far too experienced to be duped by that line of reasoning. When has any product anywhere worked "out of the box". I pretty much gave up that idea after buying my first big library, EWQLSO, and their claims of "sounds great out of the box" and "needs no mixing".
Click to expand...


Well, I realize that one cannot expect for such a product to work flawlessly without any amount of user's input.
These are sophisticated tools that we're talking about.
My point was that the patch was created with a clear goal of intelligent switching of legato types "out of the box"
As you clearly point out, we are still expected to do some of the work :D


----------



## José Herring

Patrick de Caumette @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> josejherring @ Wed Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Patrick de Caumette @ Wed Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The V1 legato performance palette (1+3) is supposed to work out of the box and intelligently select a legato type based, among other things, on velocity and time between notes/speed......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh c'mon Patrick you are far too good and far too experienced to be duped by that line of reasoning. When has any product anywhere worked "out of the box". I pretty much gave up that idea after buying my first big library, EWQLSO, and their claims of "sounds great out of the box" and "needs no mixing".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, I realize that one cannot expect for such a product to work flawlessly without any amount of user's input.
> These are sophisticated tools that we're talking about.
> My point was that the patch was created with a clear goal of intelligent switching of legato types "out of the box"
> As you clearly point out, we are still expected to do some of the work :D
Click to expand...


It's a valid point. That is for sure. HS claims the same thing and I found that the implementation of the Powerful System patches, leads to the same frustrations. And, heaven forbid that you pick a tempo and line that the script can't interpret at all, which happens to me a lot because I sometimes choose to do slow sustain legato lines over fast tempos. 

So, I think for any library those patches make you write to the patch and if you don't want to do that, then for me at least they quickly work their way off my template. So much so that I've begun to question the validity of all legato patches especially ones that use look ahead type of technology.


----------



## EastWest Lurker

Not sure I would go that far Jose', but for sure there are many situations where a simple sustain patch is a more musical choice.


----------



## JohnG

ryanstrong @ 4th March 2015 said:


> JohnG @ Wed Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If there is no moderation at all, we will not have any developers here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why is moderation based on developers attendance? To quote VI's moto "musicians helping musicians". Not "developers helping musicians".
> 
> Not suggesting we don't have moderation, but not understanding this frame of reference.
Click to expand...


Hi Ryan,

I think this is a reasonable question. You write that you're "not suggesting we don't have moderators." What moderation _do_ you think is appropriate?


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

ryanstrong @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> JohnG @ Wed Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If there is no moderation at all, we will not have any developers here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why is moderation based on developers attendance? To quote VI's moto "musicians helping musicians". Not "developers helping musicians".
> 
> Not suggesting we don't have moderation, but not understanding this frame of reference.
Click to expand...


I think that what makes this place so exciting is the very presence of said developers.
In what other industry can you have the chance to influence a product as it is getting made? (I'm sure someone will have other business sectors in mind, but still, not too many!)
Without them here, VI-Control wouldn't be the same.
When we all play nice, it's a win-win situation.
When we don't, like in this case, everybody gets hurt.

Any negative statement towards a product has negative repercussions beyond the criticism of that one person. It can result in many lost sales.
And very often, the reason for the bug is due solely to the user's mistake.

Personally I have decided to change my approach when it comes to criticism.
My new rules:

- accept the possibility that you are doing something wrong

- use the product's customer support first

- do not post when hot headed, like for example, after having just experienced an issue while working

-understand that ALL virtual instruments will have bugs. How can a developer cover all possible conditions in order to make sure that a product is bug free?
Different platforms, different OS, different computers, and on the top of it, the incredible challenge of adding other VSTs and VSTIs to a session, sometimes being the culprit for an issue.
Who are we kidding?! There is no way in the world that all conditions can be reproduced before a product gets out.

Now, some products are better than others, but it is up to the discerning customer to chose wisely.

We live in a society where the consumer mentality is a bit entitled.
Sure, it's our hard earned money, but the reason why we have a job and get paid in the first place is because such great tools exist. 

So I now support using more restraint when voicing an issue.
We're all in it together in a way, and the best level of collaboration will yield the best results.


----------



## EastWest Lurker

If everyone follows what you just wrote Patrick, this will be a better forum IMHO.


----------



## José Herring

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> Not sure I would go that far Jose', but for sure there are many situations where a simple sustain patch is a more musical choice.



Maybe I can come over sometime and we can go through some of the patches, because I'm having a really rough time with them. Like really rough.


----------



## Kejero

JohnG @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> Kejero @ 4th March 2015 said:
> 
> 
> 
> In this thread, besides the b*ll*cks flinging, some people put their heads together to figure out why one person didn't have the same problem as another person, while they were apparently, at first sight, playing the same instrument the same way. And they finally figured out the culprit in the script that was causing it, and solved the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Except that's not true.
> 
> It is not the script, but the user who was causing the problem by pasting a midi track from one library and expecting it to work with another.
Click to expand...


Not my point at all. I don't care who or what is to 'blame' for what. I don't even care about the particular problem, since I don't own the library on trial. My point is, that within this thread, was some very useful, technical information about how a script works, how the particular instrument determines which legato transition to trigger, and under which circumstances it might not give a user the expected result. That's useful information for anyone using these instruments. All I'm saying is I'd like to read more of that stuff on these forums.

These virtual instruments, as has been said countless times before, are like any instruments: you need to learn how to work with them to get the most out of them. If you want an instrument to be expressive, it has to be flexibel, so it can do what _you_ need it to do. If you really want something that sounds mindblowing out-of-the-box, just get some phrases. More flexibility means more complexity. And that means put in the time. Practice with your new instrument. And if you can't figure out how to make your instrument sound like the demos: just ask help. But maybe try to phrase it like that: a _can-anyone-help-me-with-this_, rather than a _this-expensive-piece-of-disappointing-shit-doesn't-work_. There you go, my forum utopia.


----------



## EastWest Lurker

josejherring @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure I would go that far Jose', but for sure there are many situations where a simple sustain patch is a more musical choice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I can come over sometime and we can go through some of the patches, because I'm having a really rough time with them. Like really rough.
Click to expand...


Sure.


----------



## artsoundz

"Any negative statement towards a product has negative repercussions beyond the criticism of that one person. It can result in many lost sales. "

Really? Since 99% of qualified.pro composers from low level to top tier don"t hang here, I don't see how the occasional flame war can seriousy impact sales.

While I appreciate V.I.Control, this place is certainly not that powerful. It"s generally a place for hobbyists and newbie composers with the occasional moments of great info.

It's, however, a fun place to hang. But no serious pro is going to sweat it out here. It's just too easy to find info needed very quickly on several forums- drama ignored.

this is just one stop.

And there are a hell of a lot of high end, accomplished composers that are kind, patient, great teachers.

[edited by moderator]

4. Personal attacks. When a member attacks another member - be it a composer or a developer - as a forum owner I am entitled to respond. In our ten year history, we’ve seen plenty of disagreements escalate between members themselves and/or between members and developers. Example: calling someone a fraud or a liar publicly - regardless of whether the recipient is a member or a developer - constitutes a personal attack. The problem is that subsequent rants against another left unchecked can easily escalate. Those kinds of issues are generally outside the scope of the forum when they reach critical mass where either the legal card is raised or suggested. When I move these threads I do so as a way to protect our forum and members who angrily participated in those threads from doing harm to themselves and to those being attacked. When posting, please maintain a respectful tone towards all members of this forum. If you cannot agree to disagree respectfully on a subject, please refrain from posting.


----------



## ryanstrong

JohnG @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> ryanstrong @ 4th March 2015 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JohnG @ Wed Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If there is no moderation at all, we will not have any developers here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why is moderation based on developers attendance? To quote VI's moto "musicians helping musicians". Not "developers helping musicians".
> 
> Not suggesting we don't have moderation, but not understanding this frame of reference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hi Ryan,
> 
> I think this is a reasonable question. You write that you're "not suggesting we don't have moderators." What moderation _do_ you think is appropriate?
Click to expand...


Thank you.

I feel that really isn't for me to suggest or say. Moderation ultimately needs to back up the vision and philosophy of the forum.

So that is why I asked for clarification of your statement because I wasn't connecting the grounds of moderation that you stated with the vision/moto of the forum.


----------



## José Herring

artsoundz @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> "Any negative statement towards a product has negative repercussions beyond the criticism of that one person. It can result in many lost sales. "
> 
> Really? Since 99% of qualified.pro composers from low level to top tier don"t hang here, I don't see how the occasional flame war can seriousy impact sales.
> 
> While I appreciate V.I.Control, this place is certainly not that powerful. It"s generally a place for hobbyists and newbie composers with the occasional moments of great info.
> 
> It's, however, a fun place to hang. But no serious pro is going to sweat it out here. It's just too easy to find info needed very quickly on several forums- drama ignored.
> 
> this is just one stop.
> 
> And there are a hell of a lot of high end, accomplished composers that are kind, patient, great teachers.
> 
> [edited by moderator]



Yeah, I guess you missed the post from Hans Zimmer in your time away :lol: 

All joking aside, I can't count the amount of times that somebody has come up to me that is a serious pro or at least more serious than I am and mentioned something that I mentioned on VI control. Or the amount of people that know me from here that don't post. This place has so many people lurking in the dark that I've learned to bite my tongue.


----------



## wesbender

artsoundz @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> While I appreciate V.I.Control, this place is certainly not that powerful. It"s generally a place for hobbyists and newbie composers with the occasional moments of great info.
> 
> It's, however, a fun place to hang. But no serious pro is going to sweat it out here. It's just too easy to find info needed very quickly on several forums- drama ignored



This place is far and away the most robust source of information on the internet (and anywhere else) for orchestral virtual instruments. It's also the most active and useful forum, by a long stretch, in regards to modern media scoring.

(though I agree on the point that negative comments here aren't going to have a dramatic effect on sales)




> And there are a hell of a lot of high end, accomplished composers that are kind, patient, great teachers.
> 
> [edited by moderator]



Really? That's the most clever insult you could come up with?

Dislike his 'tone' all you like, he's been an immense source of helpful and thoughtful information here over the years.


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

artsoundz @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> "Any negative statement towards a product has negative repercussions beyond the criticism of that one person. It can result in many lost sales. "
> 
> Really? Since 99% of qualified.pro composers from low level to top tier don"t hang here, I don't see how the occasional flame war can seriousy impact sales.
> 
> While I appreciate V.I.Control, this place is certainly not that powerful. It"s generally a place for hobbyists and newbie composers with the occasional moments of great info.
> 
> It's, however, a fun place to hang. But no serious pro is going to sweat it out here. It's just too easy to find info needed very quickly on several forums- drama ignored.
> 
> this is just one stop.
> 
> And there are a hell of a lot of high end, accomplished composers that are kind, patient, great teachers.
> 
> [edited by moderator]



A few answers for you...

the number may be small, but we have here some of the best guys/gals in the business.
The fact that Hanz hangs out here is only a confirmation of it.
Small number, yes, but influential nonetheless. 
Some game changing instruments where created by members of this community, (many products, as a matter of fact)

Word of mouth also can damage sales of anything, no need to elaborate on this one...

Internet search, when looking for reviews of a product that you want to buy. Our threads will appear in that search. (John G. opened my eyes to that fact)

Damage is greater than we think.


I also think that moderators should get together (I'm not one of them) and possibly post a list of guidelines that define the rules that will see someone warned, and banned.

If everyone here could have access to those guidelines, in a democratic state of mind, it would be easier to feel this is a relaxed, mature community.
This way, moderators can also check themselves and their pending decisions, in case they are having a day, like we all do at times...


----------



## kb123

wesbender @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> (though I agree on the point that negative comments here aren't going to have a dramatic effect on sales)



Only the affected developer is qualified to state whether forum negativity has an effect on sales or not. Developers have mentioned it does impact sales, and in the not to distant past Cinesamples even produced a video appealing for some understanding from the vi-c community if I recall correctly.


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

artsoundz @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> [edited by moderator]
> 4. Personal attacks. When a member attacks another member - be it a composer or a developer - as a forum owner I am entitled to respond. In our ten year history, we’ve seen plenty of disagreements escalate between members themselves and/or between members and developers. Example: calling someone a fraud or a liar publicly - regardless of whether the recipient is a member or a developer - constitutes a personal attack. The problem is that subsequent rants against another left unchecked can easily escalate. Those kinds of issues are generally outside the scope of the forum when they reach critical mass where either the legal card is raised or suggested. When I move these threads I do so as a way to protect our forum and members who angrily participated in those threads from doing harm to themselves and to those being attacked. When posting, please maintain a respectful tone towards all members of this forum. If you cannot agree to disagree respectfully on a subject, please refrain from posting.



At this my friend, would get you a warning if I was moderator.
I hope that you realize that. 
Even if Piet can be seriously un-diplomatic (to stay polite, and I don't think that Piet would argue with this statement), there is no room for this type of insult here.
Again, it's not what you say, it's how you say it...


----------



## artsoundz

"Dislike his 'tone' all you like, he's been an immense source of helpful and thoughtful information here over the years."

I could not agree with you more. Piet knows how much respect I do have for him, I think the guy is a bona fide genius. And, for the most part, I agree with his latest.

He, however, regularly calls folks infantile names. Morons etc etc. Thats where he loses me. I ignored it for years. But I'm so tired of that archaic teaching method. 

He might as well call us tools.

The man should take better care of his tools.


----------



## artsoundz

[edited by moderator]


----------



## Daryl

kb123 @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> wesbender @ Wed Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> (though I agree on the point that negative comments here aren't going to have a dramatic effect on sales)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only the affected developer is qualified to state whether forum negativity has an effect on sales or not. Developers have mentioned it does impact sales, and in the not to distant past Cinesamples even produced a video appealing for some understanding from the vi-c community if I recall correctly.
Click to expand...

Absolutely true, but here lies the quandary. If a product is bad, for whatever reason, then it absolutely should affect sales. After all, if I've wasted over £500 on a product that has severe flaws, for example, I wouldn't want someone else to fall into the same trap. However, as I'm sure you'll point out, if the opinion of the user is uninformed, not only could it affect sales, but in this case it would be unfair.

This is what happens when you have a non-returnable product with no demo mode. Other than changing this, I don't know what the answer is.

D


----------



## alextone

kb123 @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> wesbender @ Wed Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> (though I agree on the point that negative comments here aren't going to have a dramatic effect on sales)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only the affected developer is qualified to state whether forum negativity has an effect on sales or not. Developers have mentioned it does impact sales, and in the not to distant past Cinesamples even produced a video appealing for some understanding from the vi-c community if I recall correctly.
Click to expand...


This is a bit of a slippery slope.

If a user buys a product, gets little to no help from the manufacturer when he or she finds a problem, including the legendary and thoroughly amoral "corporate wall of silence", then attempts to find answers from other users in fora like this, only to get banned or posts removed, because the dev "may" lose future sales, how does this constitute our generally accepted notion of a forum?

Devs may as well post notice of their wares, and positive reviews. And as users/customers we just read, and in some cases, weep.

There's not even a need to sign up.

Just keep bookmarks for dev sites if you're interested, and willing to spend cash.

So, no longer a forum. Just a noticeboard.

2 Euros worth,

Alex.


----------



## wesbender

kb123 @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> Only the affected developer is qualified to state whether forum negativity has an effect on sales or not. Developers have mentioned it does impact sales, and in the not to distant past Cinesamples even produced a video appealing for some understanding from the vi-c community if I recall correctly.



This isn't something that's simple or easy (or possible?) to measure with any accuracy, even for a developer.

Sure, if you're getting thread after thread of strong, negative opinions, you might expect to see a dent. But the odd 'runaway thread' with a handful of folks expressing discontent (which is what typically happens)... I can't claim anything with certainty, but I strongly suspect that the effect on sales would be borderline negligible.

(And if a product_ is_ getting a hugely negative response, perhaps it deserves it, and the negative response might just be the boot up the ass the developer needs to make changes).


----------



## EastWest Lurker

alextone @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> kb123 @ Wed Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wesbender @ Wed Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> (though I agree on the point that negative comments here aren't going to have a dramatic effect on sales)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only the affected developer is qualified to state whether forum negativity has an effect on sales or not. Developers have mentioned it does impact sales, and in the not to distant past Cinesamples even produced a video appealing for some understanding from the vi-c community if I recall correctly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is a bit of a slippery slope.
> 
> If a user buys a product, gets little to no help from the manufacturer when he or she finds a problem, including the legendary and thoroughly amoral "corporate wall of silence", then attempts to find answers from other users in fora like this, only to get banned or posts removed, because the dev "may" lose future sales, how does this constitute our generally accepted notion of a forum?
> 
> Devs may as well post notice of their wares, and positive reviews. And as users/customers we just read, and in some cases, weep.
> 
> There's not even a need to sign up.
> 
> Just keep bookmarks for dev sites if you're interested, and willing to spend cash.
> 
> So, no longer a forum. Just a noticeboard.
> 
> 2 Euros worth,
> 
> Alex.
Click to expand...


Just thinking out loud I almost wonder if it would not be better if developers could in fact only advertise and only users discuss. At least the lines would be clean.

Sure would make MY job easier :


----------



## DocMidi657

This thread I think is longer then the one that got the whole thing started


----------



## JohnG

kb123 @ 4th March 2015 said:


> Only the affected developer is qualified to state whether forum negativity has an effect on sales or not. Developers have mentioned it does impact sales, and in the not to distant past Cinesamples even produced a video appealing for some understanding from the vi-c community if I recall correctly.



Attacks, accurate or not, do have an effect on sales, sometimes dramatic, according to every vendor I've discussed this issue with, including the late Peter Alexander.


----------



## EastWest Lurker

One more point and please folks, take this as being meant to be constructive and not an attack. I am not even sure of the answer, just food for thought, thinking out loud again.

Andrew K. of Audiobro used to fully participate here. Now we only see him occasionally for product announcements.

The two Cinesamples Mikes used to fully participate here. Now we only see them occasionally for product announcements.

Tari used to fully participate here. Now we only see him occasionally for product announcements.

Colin O'Malley and Troels used to fully participate here. Now we only see them occasionally for product announcements.

Hendrik of Orchestral Tools used to fully participate here. Now we only see him occasionally for product announcements.

Chris Hein used to fully participate here. Now we only see him occasionally for product announcements.

And on and on. And without naming anyone, a bunch of developers have said to me at NAMM the last two years, "I hate that place."

A couple of the VSL guys like Goran and Guy Bacos used to fully participate here. Now we only see them occasionally.

I am here for EW but since I don't own the company or develop the products I can stay somewhat detached as I have no pride of authorship. If I did, I am not sure that I could be here except for announcements.

So unless we assume that ALL these developers are abnormally thin-skinned and unable to accept any criticism, don't we as a community need to perhaps do a little self-examination and ask ourselves, "Are we not behaving in away that makes this place just too inhospitable and if so, how do we rectify it?"

Once again, not reaching any conclusions, just putting it out there.


----------



## JohnG

ryanstrong @ 4th March 2015 said:


> JohnG @ Wed Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ryanstrong @ 4th March 2015 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JohnG @ Wed Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If there is no moderation at all, we will not have any developers here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why is moderation based on developers attendance? To quote VI's moto "musicians helping musicians". Not "developers helping musicians".
> 
> Not suggesting we don't have moderation, but not understanding this frame of reference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hi Ryan,
> 
> I think this is a reasonable question. You write that you're "not suggesting we don't have moderators." What moderation _do_ you think is appropriate?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> I feel that really isn't for me to suggest or say. Moderation ultimately needs to back up the vision and philosophy of the forum.
> 
> So that is why I asked for clarification of your statement because I wasn't connecting the grounds of moderation that you stated with the vision/moto of the forum.
Click to expand...


Hi Ryan,

In answer to your question, I had a look and here are two bits from the official "Guideline Rules for v.i. control forum." I added the bold -- this is just part of it, of course, there is quite a bit about what's appropriate and not on the forum beyond this:

"When we began VI, we wanted composers to have a place to call home and a place to find the friendship and support needed to flourish in this peculiar industry of ours. There wasn’t a place of any meat and substance for a midi-mockup type composer to learn his craft well in the educational community at the time. Most who learned it casually apprenticed themselves to small pods of midi-mockup groups or figuring things on their own using the technology of the day. VI was a place for these individuals and small pods to meet and expand into the much larger community forum it is today. 

*We also wanted to encourage support for the development of sample libraries and virtual instruments. We had always seen that the relationship between composers and developers as a symbiotic one for the greater good of the entire industry.* We envisioned a place that encouraged development while maintaining the casual simplicity that defined the forum in the early days."

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3


----------



## Andrew Aversa

> So unless we assume that ALL these developers are abnormally thin-skinned and unable to accept any criticism, don't we as a community need to perhaps do a little self-examination and ask ourselves, "Are we not behaving in away that makes this place just too inhospitable and if so, how do we rectify it?"



VI has been around much longer than many of the companies you listed. I distinctly remember the original announcements for Cinesamples, Tonehammer (and later 8dio), Tari's first libraries, Orchestral Tools, and LASS, among others. I'm sure (from experience) that as these people went from composers to running software companies and developing instruments full time, forum participation probably became lower on their priority list.

Also, IMO developers are much more restricted in what we can do or say - not because of forum rules of course, but decorum. It would be extremely bad form to publicly denounce a competitor's product, even if the complaints are very tame. It's also counter-productive to spend time *praising* competing products, although we've all done it out of (deserved, of course!) respect. 

Plus, beyond that, everything we say reflects on us as companies. If I had a particularly unpopular opinion, the last thing I'd want to do is post it publicly. Even if I separate myself as a composer from my role as a developer, people will still associate the two. 

I do know some people on that list have stopped visiting because they don't like the atmosphere, sure, which is a shame. I've never felt even for a second that this place is hostile to developers. Compared to KVRAudio, Reddit, Facebook groups, or other music forums, this place is an order of magnitude more civil.


----------



## EastWest Lurker

Perhaps. But that doesn't explain the developers who said to me that they hate it. 

Anyway not on a campaign, just put it out there for thought or disregard as people feel is appropriate.


----------



## rgarber

Uhh.. excuse me but a little off-topic here but does anyone know if AirEq ever goes on sale and when? :oops: *ducks for cover*

Hey! 12,000 views in this thread, I figured someone would know! o[]) 

/\~O 

Rich


----------



## NYC Composer

I believe this thread has been allowed to continue because the reaction to the locking of the other thread has been incredulousness from quite a few people.

I reiterate- I think mistakes of overreach have been made here. I concur that ugly comparisons to the Northern Sounds debacle have surfaced. You guys (mods and Frederick)) can obviously fight on and prevail, but it would be good of you to acknowledge that a disproportionately larger number of forum members disagree with your line of thinking than you might have initially thought. 

I'm sorry, I'm not crying for Spitfire, EW, 8Dio, Cinesamples et al. All of them seem to be thriving despite our ingratitude. Some of them have made their own beds in terms of forum participation and the way they have reacted violently to the mildest of critiques. I think developer participation is great, but heat/kitchen. Thousands and thousands of my dollars have flown out of my wallet as a result of my participation in this forum. I thank the great developers for the tools they provide me by compensating them monetarily and often verbally- they should respect me as a customer and not bristle and take umbrage if I express problems with the products, EVEN IF I'M USING THEM INCORRECTLY. Correct me with grace and humor and watch the forum rally to that. Watch Blake Robinson's every response for an excellent model.

I always try to suggest that EVERYONE check themselves in terms of civil interaction, but it's a forum on the InterWeb. Stuff happens. Let it burn out. Please don't stifle. Thank you.


----------



## blougui

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> Perhaps. But that doesn't explain the developers who said to me that they hate it.
> 
> Anyway not on a campaign, just put it out there for thought or disregard as people feel is appropriate.



What would be even more interesting Jay is _why_ they hate it.

About being thin skinned, I can imagine than "morphing" from artist to company owner, and then becoming at the same time developper, manager, PR, and... still get the occasional bashing from your clients as a composer can be the ultimate burden. Dealing with this schizophrenic situation can be overwhelming, especially when you deal with this switch while participating in the very same forum you started as a young composer
.
I regret not seing Troels and Colin anymore, since Agitato went out I think. I would be very disapointed not hearing from Christian and Paul. Not a dev but a very valuable person: Alex Pfeffer has _almost_ left the place, probably after sterile exchanges about new perc libs. I deeply regret him as well.

But I understand how wise it might seem to stay away from the heat or the harsh criticism - 8Dio have faced a lot of negativity since I started here a year and a half ago. i can understand that as your company grows and you have money enough to pay someone to take the heat that you prefer to focus your working time on composing and managing the company rather than facing rampant negativity, bad faith - and I'm not sure fanboy'ing could compensate for the whining nore the open criticism. 

What is the pleasure or the need to stay involved in such a forum when you're a trained and busy composer, knowing your craft, producing your own sophisticated tools ? Plus it's so mundane to hate what you once loved ; forumers have changed, it's not so pioneering anymore, old times-good times. You've got to turn the page. Coming of age story, kind of...

Erik


----------



## artsoundz

Well said Larry and, earlier Jay. Add me to the list. It's now a badge of honor.

The thing is, if , for example, I reacted to client criticism the way spitfire did, or the way Piet regularly does, I'd either be fired or never hear from them again. 
But I have a soft spot for folks that have invested blood sweatband tears and hundreds of thousands of dollars . Cant blame them for losing their temper over amateurish, non critical thinking, poltically motivated hobbyists and mean spirited geniuses.


----------



## EastWest Lurker

artsoundz @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> Well said Larry and, earlier Jay. Add me to the list. It's now a badge of honor.
> 
> The thing is, if , for example, I reacted to client criticism the way spitfire did, or the way Piet regularly does, I'd either be fired or never hear from them again.
> But I have a soft spot for folks that have invested blood sweatband tears and hundreds of thousands of dollars . Cant blame them for losing their temper over amateurish, non critical thinking, poltically motivated hobbyists, amateurs and mean spirited geniuses.



I am confused. Larry and I almost totally disagree


----------



## Hanu_H

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> Perhaps. But that doesn't explain the developers who said to me that they hate it.



Maybe that's the whole point of this forum. It's really easy to post on your own forum where you got all the fanboys liking everything you do without any criticism. This place is different and kind of true. Atleast words are not coming from the mouths of a yesmen. I think that everyone should ease a bit on the insults but I see many of these conflicts as fault of a developer or a someone working for them. It's just stupid to think that this forum would be full of arrogant people who don't know how to use your beautiful and perfect library. If it's a user error, I am almost certain that someone will chime in probably in minutes and straighten it up, so no need for developers to join the discussion. But sometimes you buy a library without refunds, contact the support, get ignored and then you come here and release some steam. Developers need to calm down and not take every criticism as insult even if it sometimes sounds like that. Developers need to be the bigger man here.

Here's a premade list of answers for devs:

Ranter: Someone ranting about the "bumbs", looping points, tuning, etc...
Dev: I am sorry to hear you are having problems with our software, can you send us mp3 showing the problem and a midi file, so we can test it? If it's a real problem we will include fix in the next update.

Another option.
Dev: I am sorry to hear that, that is actually by design. We want our samples to sound as raw and lively as possible.

Ranter: I don't like the sound of your library, I want it to sound more like this.
Dev: I am sorry to hear that, maybe you can try these EQ setting to get it sound more like that. Or some additional reverb or layering.

Ranter: I don't like your interface or workflow.
Dev: I am sorry to hear you are having problems with our interface, if we get enough complains about this, we will try implementing other workflows into our software. In the meantime try this and this for better workflow.

List could go on...I just mean that devs should rise to a pedestal and not be on the same level as consumers. Because I am sure that these dev vs consumer battles only feed the persons that want it. If you don't join the conversation in the same level, soon it will disappear from this forum.

This is not a disrespect to any of the developers here, or any of the ranters, but just my own observation. 

-Hannes


----------



## Astronaut FX

You answered your own question Jay. EWQL has hired you to handle things for them here. And you yourself admitted that because of that, you are more detached and thus, don't take things personally and have no need to get terribly defensive. 

Developers often attempt to wear too many hats, and some don't fit so well.


----------



## ryanstrong

JohnG @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> ryanstrong @ 4th March 2015 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JohnG @ Wed Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ryanstrong @ 4th March 2015 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JohnG @ Wed Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If there is no moderation at all, we will not have any developers here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why is moderation based on developers attendance? To quote VI's moto "musicians helping musicians". Not "developers helping musicians".
> 
> Not suggesting we don't have moderation, but not understanding this frame of reference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hi Ryan,
> 
> I think this is a reasonable question. You write that you're "not suggesting we don't have moderators." What moderation _do_ you think is appropriate?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> I feel that really isn't for me to suggest or say. Moderation ultimately needs to back up the vision and philosophy of the forum.
> 
> So that is why I asked for clarification of your statement because I wasn't connecting the grounds of moderation that you stated with the vision/moto of the forum.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hi Ryan,
> 
> In answer to your question, I had a look and here are two bits from the official "Guideline Rules for v.i. control forum." I added the bold -- this is just part of it, of course, there is quite a bit about what's appropriate and not on the forum beyond this:
> 
> "When we began VI, we wanted composers to have a place to call home and a place to find the friendship and support needed to flourish in this peculiar industry of ours. There wasn’t a place of any meat and substance for a midi-mockup type composer to learn his craft well in the educational community at the time. Most who learned it casually apprenticed themselves to small pods of midi-mockup groups or figuring things on their own using the technology of the day. VI was a place for these individuals and small pods to meet and expand into the much larger community forum it is today.
> 
> *We also wanted to encourage support for the development of sample libraries and virtual instruments. We had always seen that the relationship between composers and developers as a symbiotic one for the greater good of the entire industry.* We envisioned a place that encouraged development while maintaining the casual simplicity that defined the forum in the early days."
> 
> http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3
Click to expand...


Thanks John!


----------



## Dan Mott

NYC Composer @ Thu Mar 05 said:


> I believe this thread has been allowed to continue because the reaction to the locking of the other thread has been incredulousness from quite a few people.
> 
> I reiterate- I think mistakes of overreach have been made here. I concur that ugly comparisons to the Northern Sounds debacle have surfaced. You guys (mods and Frederick)) can obviously fight on and prevail, but it would be good of you to acknowledge that a disproportionately larger number of forum members disagree with your line of thinking than you might have initially thought.
> 
> I'm sorry, I'm not crying for Spitfire, EW, 8Dio, Cinesamples et al. All of them seem to be thriving despite our ingratitude. Some of them have made their own beds in terms of forum participation and the way they have reacted violently to the mildest of critiques. I think developer participation is great, but heat/kitchen. Thousands and thousands of my dollars have flown out of my wallet as a result of my participation in this forum. I thank the great developers for the tools they provide me by compensating them monetarily and often verbally- they should respect me as a customer and not bristle and take umbrage if I express problems with the products, EVEN IF I'M USING THEM INCORRECTLY. Correct me with grace and humor and watch the forum rally to that. Watch Blake Robinson's every response for an excellent model.
> 
> I always try to suggest that EVERYONE check themselves in terms of civil interaction, but it's a forum on the InterWeb. Stuff happens. Let it burn out. Please don't stifle. Thank you.



+1 On that.

I too love Blake's responses. Very helpful dude.


----------



## pinki

I am a real lurker here mainly because I am fascinated at what a strange place this is. 

When Guy started that thread I knew within a second where it would go. It was bait because SF are no go. KH is where you want to aim that at...trash them all you like but SF..no, no no.

Anyhow....

The problem as I see it is really clear: no demos...no resales....no exchanges ....big prices.

I can buy Absynth ten times over for the price of a library that attempts in vein to try to sound like one section of an orchestra. Orchestral libraries are bizarre..... I can't even try them out before I spend a HUGE amount of money on them??? And then I can't sell it???WHY? Screw EW and SF for that. Suits them fine but look who's getting all the flack..

I make my bread a composer...I have no idea how anybody affords any of these libraries. But why would I want a computer to sound like an orchestra??? Maybe every now and then but seriously it's a ridiculous aim in the first place. Use musicians. If I want to mock up I'll use Miroslav or any old thing. It's a mock up to get my idea across.

It's more to do with where music is at in its history. The orchestra is an essentially arcane device. It has been replaced.


----------



## Arbee

My reflection on all of this is rather karmic. After all, when developers do respond on this forum, for better or worse, they are on display as much as their product and as such equally influencing future customer behaviour.

.


----------



## artsoundz

pinki @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> I am a real lurker here mainly because I am fascinated at what a strange place this is.
> 
> When Guy started that thread I knew within a second where it would go. It was bait because SF are no go. KH is where you want to aim that at...trash them all you like but SF..no, no no.
> 
> Anyhow....
> 
> The problem as I see it is really clear: no demos...no resales....no exchanges ....big prices.
> 
> I can buy Absynth ten times over for the price of a library that attempts in vein to try to sound like one section of an orchestra. Orchestral libraries are bizarre..... I can't even try them out before I spend a HUGE amount of money on them??? And then I can't sell it???WHY? Screw EW and SF for that. Suits them fine but look who's getting all the flack..
> 
> 
> I make my bread a composer...I have no idea how anybody affords any of these libraries. But why would I want a computer to sound like an orchestra??? Maybe every now and then but seriously it's a ridiculous aim in the first place. Use musicians. If I want to mock up I'll use Miroslav or any old thing. It's a mock up to get my idea across.
> 
> It's more to do with where music is at in its history. The orchestra is an essentially arcane device. It has been replaced.



1. comparing a softsynth to one of best sample libraries on the planet shows how inexperienced you are. just beyond silly. 
2.the ula spitfire uses is standard industry fare.
3. no demos? TONS of demos by some of the best composers the planet. BBC composers, young man
4.why would you want a computer to sound like orchestra? because it is absolutely required in todays compose for picture landscape. not only required but crucially important to sound accurate and, lack of a better word, REAL.
4.You say the orchestra has been replaced? uh..what? That is just bizarre. Not only has it not been replaced it's enjoyed a resurgence. 

You make your bread as a composer? I'm guessing a clueless amateur like yourself really does get paid in bread. or...
Satire?
One thing you did get right. This is a strange place. Your contribution to that concept has raised the bar.

God I love this place!!!
Edit- ok- did a search on this young mans posts. Clearly uses samples etc. so, I believe His post was a joke- tongue in cheek,sarcasm, satire etc. i apologize for misunderstanding and taking this seriously. I love satire so I'm embarrased I didnt get it.


----------



## G.R. Baumann

> The public sphere is a realm of our social life, in which something approaching public opinion can be formed.
> 
> ...
> 
> This modern public sphere is plagued by forces of commercialization and is further compromised by corporate conglomerates. It creates discourse dominated by the objectives of advertising and public relations.
> 
> Thus, the public sphere becomes a vehicle for capitalist hegemony and ideological reproduction.


_
Habermas, J. - Theory and practice 1974
Habermas, J. - The divided West 2004_


----------



## NYC Composer

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> artsoundz @ Wed Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well said Larry and, earlier Jay. Add me to the list. It's now a badge of honor.
> 
> The thing is, if , for example, I reacted to client criticism the way spitfire did, or the way Piet regularly does, I'd either be fired or never hear from them again.
> But I have a soft spot for folks that have invested blood sweatband tears and hundreds of thousands of dollars . Cant blame them for losing their temper over amateurish, non critical thinking, poltically motivated hobbyists, amateurs and mean spirited geniuses.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am confused. Larry and I almost totally disagree
Click to expand...


And despite the fact that you're totally wrong and the paid representative of a developer, I refuse to ban you as it's against my principles.


----------



## uselessmind

pinki @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> It's more to do with where music is at in its history. The orchestra is an essentially arcane device. It has been replaced.



Thank you for sharing your point of view, seriously. Even though I disagree,thank you.


----------



## Sid Francis

_1. comparing a softsynth to one of best sample libraries on the planet shows how inexperienced you are. just beyond silly. 
You make your bread as a composer? I'm guessing a clueless amateur like yourself really does get paid in bread. or... 
Satire? 
One thing you did get right. This is a strange place. Your contribution to that concept has raised the bar._


And now THIS, in comparison to Guys harsh and ban-worthy words, is the normal and wanted tone in this forum? Amazing.

I think I am at a point where I want a ban too...


----------



## artsoundz

Let me get this straight Mr. Francis- you found that kid's diatribe credible? He was dead wrong on every point. It was just so ridiculously wrong that I thought it had to be a joke.
Let's hear your response to his points. Im seriously curious.

Edit- oops.ok- did a search on this young mans posts. Clearly uses samples etc. so, I believe His post was a joke- tongue in cheek,sarcasm, satire etc. i apologize for misunderstanding and taking this seriously. I love satire so I'm embarrased I didnt get it. 
Hope that gives you some perspective, Mr. Francis. Now, go have a metamucil, on me. Make it a double.


----------



## prodigalson

> But why would I want a computer to sound like an orchestra??? Maybe every now and then but seriously it's a ridiculous aim in the first place. Use musicians. If I want to mock up I'll use Miroslav or any old thing. It's a mock up to get my idea across.



Remind us again just why you're even here? Do you know what we talk about here? haha.

And also, artsoundz, I'm really just curious about this, what exactly is a "politically motivated hobbyist?" I have no beef with your point, I'm just confused as to under what circumstances a hobbyist would be "politically motivated"


----------



## artsoundz

Hey Prod, 
Sorry for the confusion. You should be. thats on me as it was an obscure reference to a few members in the past who use this place to vent.. whatever...ranting about basically nothing substantive about the subject at the moment. Just amateur stuff that screws with the focus of this place. ya know? sigh...kids these days and their short hair. 

like many things I say, I should not have said that. I think probably my warm milk got cold and I got cranky. I'm going to up my metamucil and eat more bran.. hope that helps.


----------



## pinki

artsoundz

edit:

I wrote a defence but realised it's not worth it.

I will just say I am shocked at such an attack. Calling me a "kid" etc. "clueless amateur" ...

Wow. All I can say is wow.


----------



## clarkcontrol

o[])


----------



## rayinstirling

Who here thinks there is an inevitability in this or any forum getting to this point?

Sad really, but onwards and downwards.

To add,

The customer is ALWAYS right even when they are wrong. I can give real world examples of this ranging from future sales value of hundreds to millions in any currency we care to use. If anyone other than the seller feels the need to say the customer is an ass, so what. The seller must never ever publicly say "the customer is wrong". End of.


----------



## artsoundz

"artsoundz 

edit: 

I wrote a defence but realised it's not worth it. 

I will just say I am shocked at such an attack. Calling me a "kid" etc. "clueless amateur" ... 

Wow. All I can say is wow."

okay. I get it. your vocabulary is limited. 
Im just fascinated with how on earth you can think anything you said has any credibility? seriously, you are wrong on every point except the tired old live is better. I understood that years ago. what is the point of saying that? it's so off topic and unfocused. 

If you meant that Orchestral samples arent crucial to a career, then, yeah, we can have THAT conversation. but you didnt say that, did you? 

dumping on East West and Spitfire because they dont meet your entitled self's expectations? yeah- you sound really young and inexperienced. 

I mean, that's the tip of it, I can assure you. I've been at it way too long to put of with this puerile nonsense.

so, WOW, backatcha. 

Please tell me you are a kid. If you were an adult this would be disturbing (on a purely musical level)
Im an asshole. Ive earned. deal with it. But come back at me with something of substance.


----------



## lpuser

There are many interesting comments on this thread and I just want to add one thing:

While a walk-through does certainly give most potential buyers a lot of information about what they will receive, the most problematic demos (at least for me) are those which incorporate other libraries to present a polished piece of music, where there is no way (for the inexperienced) to understand which sounds are coming from what library.

It is nice and appreciated that some developers are offering naked versions and naked walk-throughs, but many still do not.

On many occasions I have impulse-bought a library or preset set, of which I though it sounded fantastic, just to see (aka hear) that the bits and pieces I was looking for had been coming from other libraries.

I would love developers making more videos showing what the library they want to sell is capable of on its own, without including elements from other products. And maybe just adding a few MIDI files which let people understand what was done in order to make things sound brilliant would be very helpful, too.


----------



## artsoundz

please name one developer who has done that cause I dispute your claim. The vast majority of demos very clearly give a great idea of what the product will do. I listen to virtually everything and never have trouble. 
impulse buying is all that it implies and is all on you. all day long.


----------



## lpuser

wesbender @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> This place is far and away the most robust source of information on the internet (and anywhere else) for orchestral virtual instruments.



What a great comment and I do absolutely agree. Coming from non-classical music, this forum (which I did lucky find when searching around) has helped me so much when I started to glimpse into "orchestral music" for the very first time. I do appreciate the positive, informative posts very much and hope that others feel the same.

For beginners like me it is always easy to say something wrong or ask stupid questions, but then again, I am very happy to see that a lot of pros are helping out, well knowing they also did start at some point back in time with limited knowledge and needed people who helped them. This is very much appreciated and exactly what I like this forum for.


----------



## lpuser

@artsoundz:

You have every right to dispute my claim, however your reply supports my point: "... the VAST majority of demos ..."

Well, I have formulated a wish which some developer might consider - others won´t. However we certainly are not the ones to decide no matter how many companies we name in support of each position.


----------



## Simon Ravn

josejherring @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> Patrick de Caumette @ Wed Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> josejherring @ Wed Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Patrick de Caumette @ Wed Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The V1 legato performance palette (1+3) is supposed to work out of the box and intelligently select a legato type based, among other things, on velocity and time between notes/speed......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh c'mon Patrick you are far too good and far too experienced to be duped by that line of reasoning. When has any product anywhere worked "out of the box". I pretty much gave up that idea after buying my first big library, EWQLSO, and their claims of "sounds great out of the box" and "needs no mixing".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, I realize that one cannot expect for such a product to work flawlessly without any amount of user's input.
> These are sophisticated tools that we're talking about.
> My point was that the patch was created with a clear goal of intelligent switching of legato types "out of the box"
> As you clearly point out, we are still expected to do some of the work :D
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's a valid point. That is for sure. HS claims the same thing and I found that the implementation of the Powerful System patches, leads to the same frustrations. And, heaven forbid that you pick a tempo and line that the script can't interpret at all, which happens to me a lot because I sometimes choose to do slow sustain legato lines over fast tempos.
> 
> So, I think for any library those patches make you write to the patch and if you don't want to do that, then for me at least they quickly work their way off my template. So much so that I've begun to question the validity of all legato patches especially ones that use look ahead type of technology.
Click to expand...


"Looking ahead scripts" will always be fundamentally flawed, since they will always be one step behind what you actually want it to do. If you play one long note, then two fast ones, it will only recognize the last one as being fast (based on the 2nd last's tempo being fast). Play two fast notes followed by a long sustain, the first will not be interpreted fast, the 2nd and 3rd will, which will cause a "bump" on the third note, where you really just (usually) want a non-agressive bowing (if we're talking strings).

Personally I think it would make more sense to have a velocity above xxx trigger aggressive/fast bowing, rather than fast playing. This is very easy to control as a user. Can't remember how exactly it works with Spitfire, but I believe Berlin Strings adds an accent when using high velocities in conjunction with some kind of "look ahead" script.

Oh well, back on topic for which I don't have much to add 8)


----------



## Stephen Rees

Nice post Larry. If I have half your wisdom when I reach 100 I'll be happy.

If someone posts something bad about a product, even if it is untrue, to assume that everyone thinks - 'well the product must be bad then because anything that anyone says on the Internet is true without the need for further thought or investigation on my part' - is to assume everyone is an idiot.

I have massive respect for Frederick in setting up this forum and the vision, time and effort he must have put in to make it happen. But the forum is evolving (I assume the cost of running it is becoming considerable), and it is not going to evolve in a way that every one of us likes.

So I guess those of us having a problem with it are just deciding how we feel about that, and whether we will continue posting and visiting.

For myself, I am sorry that Guy is not allowed to post ('temporarily'), nor do I understand even slightly the reasoning behind that decision. None of his behaviour has ever seemed at odds with the forum rules as I understand them. Guy seems to be the very embodiment of 'musicians helping musicians' to me.


----------



## Christof

Wow, I thought this forum is crowded by nice and polite professionals, this thread is not very representative for new members dropping by.

I missed this whole thread and I don't want to go through all 7 pages, could someone write a short summary of what actually happened?
Some kind of "recap" for people like me who chimed in much too late?

This is a place I visit every day, so I also care about good or bad vibes going on here.


----------



## mc_deli

pinki @ Thu Mar 05 said:


> The problem as I see it is really clear: no demos...no resales....no exchanges ....big prices.



I understand this to mean "no demo licenses".

I am new to this and the forum and think this is a big long term problem for developers. 

If you are an established top flight composer with years of income, and many existing libraries, of course you can handle these buying conditions.

My guess is that is a relatively small pool of customers that does not have the potential to grow - being fought over by an increasing number of developers with long term - and costly - development plans.

Buying a major lib is like buying an instrument for me. And it is an investment in cash, time, skills and a risk. With no ability to demo for myself and no possibility to sell on (for me or my family if anything happens to me) I don't think I can buy.

Sadly this situation with the licensing of the major libraries is the significant thing I have learned about via this forum, and the thing that is going to send me to the prosumer libraries.

Of course, these conditions also make it more difficult to manage buyers' expectations and handle them in public...


----------



## artsoundz

lpuser @ Thu Mar 05 said:


> @artsoundz:
> 
> You have every right to dispute my claim, however your reply supports my point: "... the VAST majority of demos ..."
> 
> Well, I have formulated a wish which some developer might consider - others won´t. However we certainly are not the ones to decide no matter how many companies we name in support of each position.



Ok. Fair enough. But I'm still confused as to what you want. I dont know of any developer that creates demos that dont fairly represent their product. Im just asking for you to clarify and back that up. 
Look, you seem like a nice guy. You say earlier you are a beginner. You come off very reasonably and respectful and seem eager to listen. So all I'm saying is that all you need to know, 99% of time, is out there. Your Ears just may be a little inexperienced so,respectfully, I say that you are being a little naive expecting or wanting ,rather, a developer to focus on your needs as a beginner. 
Do you understand? Trust me, it will come. And I shit you not, you are SO lucky to have the kind of quality available to you at such reasonable prices. You have no idea how bad it was for a long time. But it was always a blast which is why I have trouble with the whining (not you). 
Someone like you will benefit here, no doubt. Sorry if I come off harsh.


----------



## AC986

Just hang in there Pinki because I'm coming! I'm eating my breakfast ATM but I'm on my way. There's gonna be some serious shredding here soon. Just let me get a bath and I'm going in. No prisoners! No prisoners!


----------



## Daryl

artsoundz @ Thu Mar 05 said:


> lpuser @ Thu Mar 05 said:
> 
> 
> 
> @artsoundz:
> 
> You have every right to dispute my claim, however your reply supports my point: "... the VAST majority of demos ..."
> 
> Well, I have formulated a wish which some developer might consider - others won´t. However we certainly are not the ones to decide no matter how many companies we name in support of each position.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok. Fair enough. But I'm still confused as to what you want. I dont know of any developer that creates demos that dont fairly represent their product. Im just asking for you to clarify and back that up.
Click to expand...

All a demo track can do is tell you how the product suits that particular piece of music. It doesn't help you decide whether or not it will work for your own music. There have been many threads where people have talked about writing specifically for the samples. How is one to know whether or not this was the case when one hears a nice demo?

This is exacerbated when a developer won't let you see MIDI files, because there is some sort of secret ingredient that the demo composer doesn't want anyone else to see.

To use the much abused car analogy, it is no good seeing how the car drives by watching a top F1 driver put it through its paces. You need to test drive it yourself.

I totally understand that when a product is a very large one, for everyone to d/l hundreds of gigabytes of data, when there is no guaranteed sale, is not practical, but equally developers have to understand that without this facility they must expect some disappointed customers with all that entails.

D


----------



## TheUnfinished

I've made this point before, but I might as well make it again as it remains relevant.

I think one of the main problems with threads on VI (and other forums) is not so much whether someone's being respectful or rude when conducting themselves, but this bizarre need to try and "win" threads.

A strange obsession with having the last word, or just losing your shit when people disagree with you.

The end game of every thread isn't some kind of homogenous consensus. Sometimes the journey of disagreement is exactly what it's about. 

And even if you STILL disagree vehemently with what people say, that doesn't mean there's nothing to be gained from participation where you DON'T BLOODY WIN!


----------



## artsoundz

daryl, 
In a perfect world, you are right. It would be great. But , as you say, how could a developer accomplish what you want and not risk his product. Its just not ever going to happen. Why keep asking is what baffles me.
Spitfire gave away an octave of Sable volume 1. Worked for me. But , I just cant think of a scenario that would work. 
I do sort of disagree that demos are that proprietary. Yes, they are in context. But I hear a much more generalized context, for the most part, that gives me a great idea how it would work within that genre.
Anyway- not to be rude, but I spent way too much time here and pissed off too many. 
Gonna say goodbye for now but never say never. 

Lastly- Patrick was treated so poorly so ya all pissed me off. Banning guy was wrong even though he was as well. Some of the mods suck. Then the idiots came out to play so....

ya all been "Whiplash"ed. It was too easy.


----------



## gyprock

One thing that bugs me about "some" developers is that their rate of product release is just too fast to enable adequate maintenance of existing products. I don't want the latest deeply sampled legato strummed Peruvian coconuts while their core product suffers.

It's just not possible to have tech support handle a large volume of new releases without bugs slipping through the testing cycle. Developers just can't afford to dedicate a product specialist for each new product.

I used to work in IT for a bleeding edge company. When we only had a few products, everyone was keen and proud to get those products out the door with no bugs. As our marketing and sales team grew with increasing income, guess what? - our quality went down even though we hired more people.

It comes down to focusing on core products and using quality as a badge of honour rather than the number of 3D virtual product box shots that are marketed and released way before they should.

It is very easy to seduce a potential customer through nice graphic design and a long list of products, loyalty pricing and great demos but if the goods don't deliver only a single sale is made to that customer rather than repeated ones.

I know that competition is fierce and it is fun to be constantly releasing new products because that's what entrepreneurs do. However the developer is required to ensure that their products perform as advertised.


----------



## lee

As someone wrote before, vi-control.net is still the ultimate forum for our kind, compared to kvr, gearslutz, northernsounds etc.. Both when it comes to "musicians helping musicians" and freedom of speech. Guy shouldn't be banned imo, but come on.. How many bans have you heard of during all these years?

Stop whining and start writing! (including me)


----------



## artsoundz

gyprock @ Thu Mar 05 said:


> One thing that bugs me about "some" developers is that their rate of product release is just too fast to enable adequate maintenance of existing products. I don't want the latest deeply sampled legato strummed Peruvian coconuts while their core product suffers.
> 
> It's just not possible to have tech support handle a large volume of new releases without bugs slipping through the testing cycle. Developers just can't afford to dedicate a product specialist for each new product.
> 
> I used to work in IT for a bleeding edge company. When we only had a few products, everyone was keen and proud to get those products out the door with no bugs. As our marketing and sales team grew with increasing income, guess what? - our quality went down even though we hired more people.
> 
> It comes down to focusing on core products and using quality as a badge of honour rather than the number of 3D virtual product box shots that are marketed and released way before they should.
> 
> It is very easy to seduce a potential customer through nice graphic design and a long list of products, loyalty pricing and great demos but if the goods don't deliver only a single sale is made to that customer rather than repeated ones.
> 
> I know that competition is fierce and it is fun to be constantly releasing new products because that's what entrepreneurs do. However the developer is required to ensure that their products perform as advertised.



Dammit. I'm trying to leave this joint and I read the first really valid point in this whole train wreck. 
Absolutely a vital issue. Way to go.


----------



## blougui

TheUnfinished @ Thu Mar 05 said:


> I've made this point before, but I might as well make it again as it remains relevant.
> 
> I think one of the main problems with threads on VI (and other forums) is not so much whether someone's being respectful or rude when conducting themselves, but this bizarre need to try and "win" threads.
> 
> A strange obsession with having the last word, or just losing your shit when people disagree with you.
> 
> The end game of every thread isn't some kind of homogenous consensus. Sometimes the journey of disagreement is exactly what it's about.
> 
> And even if you STILL disagree vehemently with what people say, that doesn't mean there's nothing to be gained from participation where you DON'T BLOODY WIN!



I agree whole-heartedly and on every point. Being closer to 50 than 40, I've experienced IRL this attitude, and fora just permit and amplify such a behaviour.

I think in the end Patrick has gracefully shown it's not about "winning" a thread. And Guy didn't have this opportunity as the thread was locked quite early.

I for one was very surprised to witness the banning of Guy ; he's such a nice chap around here, at least from a user point of view. Despite the fact the title he chose wasn't relevant to the question that followed, kind of misleading - in no way it was a general thread on SA ; Guy was questionning his own doubts on purchasing some new SA products due to his frustration about updates (announced or not) not coming soon enough.

- Erik


----------



## Ozymandias

gyprock @ Thu Mar 05 said:


> One thing that bugs me about "some" developers is that their rate of product release is just too fast to enable adequate maintenance of existing products.



Yes, this is something that has bummed me out as well.

I say that as someone who's very much a fan of the "release early, release often" approach. I really don't mind if the initial version of something has a few bugs. But clearly, if you're not going to release often, releasing early on its own doesn't work too well.


----------



## mk282

gyprock @ 5.3.2015 said:


> One thing that bugs me about "some" developers is that their rate of product release is just too fast to enable adequate maintenance of existing products. I don't want the latest deeply sampled legato strummed Peruvian coconuts while their core product suffers.
> 
> It's just not possible to have tech support handle a large volume of new releases without bugs slipping through the testing cycle. Developers just can't afford to dedicate a product specialist for each new product.



It's quite obvious to which developer you imply by "some". It's just the one developer, naturally. And that developer had 20 significant (out of 47 total) updates to their product range just in 2014. Kinda blows any other developer out of water, making your comment moot.


----------



## brett

Yes. Full marks to Spitfire. When you have a look at how far Albion I has come, to choose but one example, they set a high standard. Some people complain they are slow, but despite being obviously very busy people, you can be sure they'll keep tweaking their existing releases over time. 

Far better than many devs in this regard and for this they have my respect.


----------



## lucianogiacomozzi

brett @ Thu 05 Mar said:


> Yes. Full marks to Spitfire. When you have a look at how far Albion I has come, to choose but one example, they set a high standard. Some people complain they are slow, but despite being obviously very busy people, you can be sure they'll keep tweaking their existing releases over time.
> 
> Far better than many devs in this regard and for this they have my respect.



As I recall, I woke up to find Horns and Bones (with legato as well as shorts and longs) and my most used cymbal and gongs patches to date sitting in my inbox... FREE. That has happened about 5 times now! And they helped me out when downloading wasn't working, customer service that we take for granted these days, all the major stores are in millions of pounds/euro/dollars profit, enough to pay these people in their customer service department full time for dedicated jobs. However big a sample library developer is, it's still a niche market and devs like Spitfire spend so much time helping out (Paul and Christian have both personally handled my issues very quickly and in a wonderful manner) that it's a wonder they have any time to develop new products and update Sable or whatever when they are handling these issues in their own time.


----------



## midfi

TheUnfinished @ Thu Mar 05 said:


> I think one of the main problems with threads on VI (and other forums) is not so much whether someone's being respectful or rude when conducting themselves, but this bizarre need to try and "win" threads.



I think you've hit the nail on the head.

Also part of the problem comes from confusion about whether something we, or others, say is being stated as (1) a subjective opinion, (2) a personal (rather than universal) experience, or (3) as an objective fact. Some examples:

"I don't like the sound / functionality of library Y" (subjective opinion)
"I prefer library A, over library B" (subjective opinion)
"Library A is superior to library B" (objective fact)
"I'm having X problems with library Y" (personal experience)
"Everyone who owns library Y has X problems with it" (objective fact/ universal experience)
"Library Y is broken with respect to feature Z" (objective fact)

As a general rule if the claim has an 'is' or an 'are' in it then it is being stated as an objective fact.

"I like cats" (subjective opinion)
"cats ARE the best" (objective fact)
"I love holidaying in Spain" (subjective opinion)
"Spain IS the best holiday destination" (objective fact)

AFAICT in this case a user was having a negative personal experience with a library, but rather than first try to find out if the problem was universal (encountered by all users) he jumped straight to claiming the library was universally broken/ faulty and stated this as if it were an objective fact.

But it turned out to be user error. In this case the customer was wrong. The developers corrected the customer, which in this case (all ego aside) was most helpful thing to do.

Had the customer simply voiced an opinion ("I don't like how SF libraries sound") then it would have been inappropriate for SF to 'correct' them. But because the claim was stated as an _objective fact_ ("this library's legato is broken" - or words to that effect) correcting the false claim was entirely the right, justified and most helpful thing to do.

"The customer is always right" mantra is only supposed to apply to the customer's opinions and tastes, which may be awful, but it's not the job of the waiter, tailor, or sample library developer to challenge them. But the mantra does not apply when the customer makes a claim of _objective fact_ which turns out to be wrong. In that case the most respectful, honest and helpful thing to do is to "cor-rect them"....... you know, like in The Shining.... :shock:

Sorry to be so pedantic, but while working in sales/ customer services I developed a dispassionate philosophical approach... for my own sanity if nothing else!


----------



## AC986

pinki @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> When Guy started that thread I knew within a second where it would go. It was bait because SF are no go. KH is where you want to aim that at...trash them all you like but SF..no, no no.



Completely correct. Since this thread has been dubiously named, simply because it has 'Developer Complaints' in the title.

Let's not just focus on SF. Let's look at KH strings for a second. One of the worst noises I ever heard in my life coming out of a sample player. But read on.



pinki @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> The problem as I see it is really clear: no demos...no resales....no exchanges ....big prices.



It's a diabolical liberty in any commercial country on the planet. But read on.




pinki @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> I can buy Absynth ten times over for the price of a library that attempts in vein to try to sound like one section of an orchestra. Orchestral libraries are bizarre..... I can't even try them out before I spend a HUGE amount of money on them??? And then I can't sell it???WHY? Screw EW and SF for that. Suits them fine but look who's getting all the flack..




Completely correct. But read further.



pinki @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> I make my bread a composer...I have no idea how anybody affords any of these libraries. But why would I want a computer to sound like an orchestra??? Maybe every now and then but seriously it's a ridiculous aim in the first place. Use musicians. If I want to mock up I'll use Miroslav or any old thing. It's a mock up to get my idea across.



Absolutely correct on all points. Read further if you please.




pinki @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> It's more to do with where music is at in its history. The orchestra is an essentially arcane device. It has been replaced.



I'm entirely sure that the orchestra is a mysterious or secret device, but to a lot of people here it damn well should be.

It has been replaced in a lot of ways.


----------



## AC986

pinki @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> It's more to do with where music is at in its history. The orchestra is an essentially arcane device. It has been replaced.



How a sample library can cost in relation to others, what could be construed as a fairly hefty investment, AND not even be on the main page of Kontakt is beyond me. Having to faff around in the Files page when you just laid out £800 or so for a string library is a load nonsense imo.

I bought for example, Rises & Hits from NI in their sale and it's on the main page of Kontakt, does what it's meant to do, sounds good, and cost about £50. You don't go blind trying to read it. You don't develop cataracts just thinking about it.

The emphasis on orchestral is almost on a par with an addiction to texting that fat women have while they're driving into pedestrians. 

Anyone seriously thinks that an orchestral sample library, however good the programmer is, is going to sound like a real orchestra has either been seriously misled or is living in denial. An orchestral sampled piece of music is a just a bunch of facsimiles glued together.

A string sample is no different to the sound you make with a synthesiser or anything else. They're just sounds. They're not anymore or any less real than the sound that a synthesiser makes. No orchestral player that I know can repeat the same sound and intonation the same way a sample does. Even in the same room.

In fact, the sound of a synthesiser is a more honest sound.

My advice to anyone wanting to actually make money out of music is to listen to a commercial TV station as I did last night (because of this thread) and see how many pieces that come up are orchestral. Last night I counted none. Not one. Although there must have been some somewhere in amongst it.

The only reason I do anything that could even be vaguely construed as orchestral anymore is because I'm asked to. Unless you've played, can actually play, in an orchestra, samples are not really orchestral when the same piece is compared.


----------



## pinki

artsoundz @ Thu Mar 05 said:


> "artsoundz
> okay. I get it. your vocabulary is limited.
> Im just fascinated with how on earth you can think anything you said has any credibility? seriously, you are wrong on every point except the tired old live is better. I understood that years ago. what is the point of saying that? it's so off topic and unfocused.
> 
> If you meant that Orchestral samples arent crucial to a career, then, yeah, we can have THAT conversation. but you didnt say that, did you?
> 
> dumping on East West and Spitfire because they dont meet your entitled self's expectations? yeah- you sound really young and inexperienced.
> 
> I mean, that's the tip of it, I can assure you. I've been at it way too long to put of with this puerile nonsense.
> 
> so, WOW, backatcha.
> 
> Please tell me you are a kid. If you were an adult this would be disturbing (on a purely musical level)
> Im an asshole. Ive earned. deal with it. But come back at me with something of substance.



Orchestral samples are sometimes crucial to my career. Why are you so so aggressive.
I think you have indeed "been at it way too long" 
You completely misunderstood everything I said so as you seem to have such a limited intelligence and clearly have issues ...there is no point in discussing with you. 

Others apparently got what I said.


----------



## dinerdog

Has anybody else's mother ever told them: "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all"? I know, I'm old school. And old. ^>|


----------



## Christof

The orchestra will never be replaced by samples.
Samples are just a new way to make an orchestra sound.


----------



## eric aron

I can’t believe.. again this kind discussion .. 8 pages for what???

so much time spent .. and forever lost

ego has no limits in its ferocious will to dominate 

guys, did you forget that you are here (at least I from my heart hope it) to write music, music, and music... and bring it to this sick world who desperately needs harmony?

so few people on this planet have the gifts and blessings we as musicians have.. spoiling your time in such sterile topics, instead of enlightening your human brothers with beauty, is a total waste of your talents, and an offense to Life

I prefer a symphony than a battle

back to work now


----------



## AC986

dinerdog @ Thu Mar 05 said:


> Has anybody else's mother ever told them: "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all"? I know, I'm old school. And old. ^>|



You're not as old as I am Steve. :mrgreen: 

Pinki made some very good points. Way too much weight given to orchestral libraries and library developers round here.


----------



## dedersen

adriancook @ Thu Mar 05 said:


> dinerdog @ Thu Mar 05 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has anybody else's mother ever told them: "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all"? I know, I'm old school. And old. ^>|
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're not as old as I am Steve. :mrgreen:
> 
> Pinki made some very good points. Way too much weight given to orchestral libraries and library developers round here.
Click to expand...

Hm. Isn't that a bit like visiting a Ferrari forum and declaring that they focus too much on cars compared to other forms of transportation?

On a more related note, absolutely shocked that Guy was banned. How on earth he was deserving of that I will never understand. I find myself very much in agreement with large parts of Piet's post. It's problematic if members like Guy are considered harmful to this community.


----------



## AC986

dedersen @ Thu Mar 05 said:


> adriancook @ Thu Mar 05 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dinerdog @ Thu Mar 05 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has anybody else's mother ever told them: "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all"? I know, I'm old school. And old. ^>|
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're not as old as I am Steve. :mrgreen:
> 
> Pinki made some very good points. Way too much weight given to orchestral libraries and library developers round here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hm. Isn't that a bit like visiting a Ferrari forum and declaring that they focus too much on cars compared to other forms of transportation?
Click to expand...


Hmm. I've no idea. I don't own a Ferrari.


----------



## renegade

*@Piet*: Thanks for this last contribution (I assume you are leaving for good). Food for thought as always. Colorful and passionately written as always!

I've been around VI-C for a while and have great appreciation for these types of members – colorful, not always polite(!) but very passionate and with strong sense of aesthetics and uncompromised believe in art. On top of that, lots experience and knowledge. IMO, these members make this place worth visiting, worth following and read. _And_ makes it fun.

Piet was one of those. He was one of those who made me sign up in the first place. I think it's a great loss for this community that he has decided to leave.Yes, he could be an undiplomatic stubborn asshole...but honestly, that meant almost nothing to me. I always try to focus on substance, and his writings often had plenty.

IMO V.I.-C needs those talented, enthusiastic and passionate members. Otherwise this place will indeed become a tame soup of indifference. Nice and everybody will be polite, but...rather boring, right?

If you read this, Piet: Best of luck and thank you.


Anyone happens to know if you can find his music somewhere? He seldom posted his own compositions, and not for very long!, but when he did it was creative, clever og often complex inspiring stuff.


----------



## EastWest Lurker

Well, since you put it in bold font, it must be so.


----------



## procreative

adriancook @ Thu Mar 05 said:


> Since this thread has been dubiously named, simply because it has 'Developer Complaints' in the title.



Not at all, if you actually read my first post before this topic went way off piste with comments about how much liver damage you intend to create, you might have seen a balanced view on the subject.



adriancook @ Thu Mar 05 said:


> The emphasis on orchestral is almost on a par with an addiction to texting that fat women have while they're driving into pedestrians.



Wow thats a very offensive generalisation, are you really that much of a bigot?


----------



## renegade

EastWest Lurker @ Thu 05 Mar said:


> Well, since you put it in bold font, it must be so.



*No.*


----------



## EastWest Lurker

renegade @ Thu Mar 05 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu 05 Mar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, since you put it in bold font, it must be so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *No. That's just my opinion.*
Click to expand...


Yes, but clearly that makes you and your opinion so much more important


----------



## Christof

I totally agree with eric aron.

Save all your positive and negative energy to write something gorgeous.
Sometimes this place is as bad as Facebook.
Shouldn't be.


----------



## renegade

EastWest Lurker @ Thu 05 Mar said:


> renegade @ Thu Mar 05 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EastWest Lurker @ Thu 05 Mar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, since you put it in bold font, it must be so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *No. That's just my opinion.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, but clearly that makes you and your opinion so much more important
Click to expand...


 Well, that was (obviously?) not my intention. I'm not that arrogant (I think/hope). Edited.


----------



## EastWest Lurker

renegade @ Thu Mar 05 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu 05 Mar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> renegade @ Thu Mar 05 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EastWest Lurker @ Thu 05 Mar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, since you put it in bold font, it must be so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *No. That's just my opinion.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, but clearly that makes you and your opinion so much more important
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, that was (obviously?) not my intention. I'm not that arrogant (I think/hope). Edited.
Click to expand...


I know, I am just messing with you.


----------



## renegade

EastWest Lurker @ Thu 05 Mar said:


> renegade @ Thu Mar 05 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EastWest Lurker @ Thu 05 Mar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> renegade @ Thu Mar 05 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EastWest Lurker @ Thu 05 Mar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, since you put it in bold font, it must be so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *No. That's just my opinion.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, but clearly that makes you and your opinion so much more important
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, that was (obviously?) not my intention. I'm not that arrogant (I think/hope). Edited.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I know, I am just messing with you.
Click to expand...


Ha - I thought so  But I'm always careful when it comes to written language (not my language, that is) and humor  Cheers


----------



## rJames

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> One more point and please folks, take this as being meant to be constructive and not an attack. I am not even sure of the answer, just food for thought, thinking out loud again.
> 
> Andrew K. of Audiobro used to fully participate here. Now we only see him occasionally for product announcements.
> 
> The two Cinesamples Mikes used to fully participate here. Now we only see them occasionally for product announcements.
> 
> Tari used to fully participate here. Now we only see him occasionally for product announcements.
> 
> Colin O'Malley and Troels used to fully participate here. Now we only see them occasionally for product announcements.
> 
> Hendrik of Orchestral Tools used to fully participate here. Now we only see him occasionally for product announcements.
> 
> Chris Hein used to fully participate here. Now we only see him occasionally for product announcements.
> 
> And on and on. And without naming anyone, a bunch of developers have said to me at NAMM the last two years, "I hate that place."
> 
> A couple of the VSL guys like Goran and Guy Bacos used to fully participate here. Now we only see them occasionally.
> 
> I am here for EW but since I don't own the company or develop the products I can stay somewhat detached as I have no pride of authorship. If I did, I am not sure that I could be here except for announcements.
> 
> So unless we assume that ALL these developers are abnormally thin-skinned and unable to accept any criticism, don't we as a community need to perhaps do a little self-examination and ask ourselves, "Are we not behaving in away that makes this place just too inhospitable and if so, how do we rectify it?"
> 
> Once again, not reaching any conclusions, just putting it out there.



Not to be a contrarian (which I do love to be) but I think this is more of a natural evolution of them all becoming busier. If they've stated that they don't like to be here because of conversations or adverse business impact from their being here, then I'm wrong.

But many of us have gotten busier as we put into practice all that we've learned here. I can't imagine how someone like Troels and the two Mikes can find time for dinner. They are all active composers that run massive sampling companies as well. And as for Spitfire, they put out more new products than I write cues.

Ron

PS Guy should not have been banned for an hour. I do appreciate the fact that The forum has to protect itself legally from time to time though.

PPS When you've talked to customer support and are still dissatisfied, you have a right to voice your opinions in a public forum. The developers should take that into consideration. Its not a one way street. Publicity is publicity.


----------



## germancomponist

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> One more point and please folks, take this as being meant to be constructive and not an attack. I am not even sure of the answer, just food for thought, thinking out loud again.
> 
> Andrew K. of Audiobro used to fully participate here. Now we only see him occasionally for product announcements.
> 
> The two Cinesamples Mikes used to fully participate here. Now we only see them occasionally for product announcements.
> 
> Tari used to fully participate here. Now we only see him occasionally for product announcements.
> 
> Colin O'Malley and Troels used to fully participate here. Now we only see them occasionally for product announcements.
> 
> Hendrik of Orchestral Tools used to fully participate here. Now we only see him occasionally for product announcements.
> 
> Chris Hein used to fully participate here. Now we only see him occasionally for product announcements.
> 
> And on and on. And without naming anyone, a bunch of developers have said to me at NAMM the last two years, "I hate that place."
> 
> A couple of the VSL guys like Goran and Guy Bacos used to fully participate here. Now we only see them occasionally.
> 
> I am here for EW but since I don't own the company or develop the products I can stay somewhat detached as I have no pride of authorship. If I did, I am not sure that I could be here except for announcements.
> 
> So unless we assume that ALL these developers are abnormally thin-skinned and unable to accept any criticism, don't we as a community need to perhaps do a little self-examination and ask ourselves, "Are we not behaving in away that makes this place just too inhospitable and if so, how do we rectify it?"
> 
> Once again, not reaching any conclusions, just putting it out there.



I didn't want, but now I shime in.

Wasn't it so that all these developers tried to use this forum for their own advantage?
Come on guys, making money is sexy, isn't it?

Yeah, every coin has two sides. o/~ o-[][]-o


----------



## Dan Mott

For those who leave VI Control, I know there is some part of you that wants to come back . Only because this place has balance. I have been attacked before on some things I have said, but there is always others that chime in and help the one getting attacked. I have also written harsh comments without thinking. 


Anyway. I like this topic about demos for libraries. I have bought libs before when listening to demos and it's really not until you have your hands on it that you can really judge it. The demos that are written (as many have said) are showing there strengths. The videos demos the devs make are mainly quick little videos of them noodling with a phrase. I have been pretty bumped with some libraries that I thought were going to suit a certain track or the way I work, but appreciate the ones that do work. 

[/u]


----------



## G.R. Baumann

Excerpt from thread. 

As a matter of fact the below is just from a single page, and so it goes on and on... 



G.R. Baumann @ Mon Mar 02 said:


> ...I herewith officially request them to lift the ban on Guy.





sinkd @ Mon Mar 02 said:


> If Guy has been asked to go then I am out as well. ….
> @Fred: Please reconsider





lee @ Mon Mar 02 said:


> I don't think the ban was right either.





Phil-thy @ Mon Mar 02 said:


> I too think it is wrong Guy has been banned.





Echoes in the Attic @ Mon Mar 02 said:


> Guy was temporarily banned? Are you frickin' kidding me? ....
> 
> ....Wow this is making me rethink my participation here.





rJames @ Mon Mar 02 said:


> ....Un ban Guy... bad move!!! Get a thicker skin.





adriancook @ Mon Mar 02 said:


> Couple times I've asked for advice and Guy said to me - yes buy EZ Drummer and I just accepted it and bought it and it's great. Don't buy Polyplex. I also instantly accepted Guy's advice and didn't. Great.
> 
> WTF is the problem here? I'll tell you what it is. It's money.





SPOTS @ Mon Mar 02 said:


> I may have missed something but I can't see Guy posts being the reason of the overreacted comments. Which makes his banning even less meaningful to me.





alextone @ Mon Mar 02 said:


> I don't agree with Guy getting banned. That thread was mild, imho.


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

It's been three days already.

I vote to let him back in, and we can all move on...


----------



## givemenoughrope

Guy is like half of this forum, you know. Sometimes he's talking about something I have no interest and other times he brings up something which eventually changes the way I work. And I read all of re-peat, rctec and the rest's posts. I think I get more from Guy with the nitty grit of the tools, cubase, kontakt, etc. I wish the others were more specific about how they worked...anyway..

Whatever he said or asked I can't imagine it was anything out of line. If it was something like, "SF legato doesn't work as it should," then I dunno; depends on the tone I guess. All legatos are different some better than others at different things which should be obvious. LASS is a tough act to follow as is 8dio. SF more than makes it work too imo (I can imagine a lesser script/crossfade wrecking the sound of the room) but they're all just different. SF is the sound and feel to me. I think 8dio is the only one that I really go to when I'm thinking "legato." They're all two or three clicks from being loaded for me. 

One huge thing that we rarely see are walkthoughs that show users how to programs these tools. Since every developer has a different approach in addition to their libraries sounding way different that might help. Put out a few demos that sound killer. great. Now show us how you got there with the basic parts. Otherwise, we're left trying to figure it out ourselves. I know SF has, 8dio, Cinesamples, audiobro, I'm sure I'm forgetting some. That would go a long way I think. Maybe do a pd or standard rep piece and release the midi files. These tools are all great but there is obviously a disconnect.


----------



## dinerdog

For the record, when I said "if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all", I actually wasn't including Guy in that. That was directed more at the hobbyist's and people who just feel like they "have" to chime in for no good reason.

I consider Guy one of the most 'erudite' people here and have probably spent more time watching his walkthroughs that anyone else's. Seriously, if the diatribe was left between he and Spitfire (who also put an insane amount of good willed effort into their work), I don't think any of this would've happened.

The problem (I find) is that some people are compelled to vomit their opinions just because there's a platform. A lot of people don't understand the concept of "constructive criticism". You (and you know who you are) are the reason the internet can suck.


----------



## prodigalson

> For the record, when I said "if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all", I actually wasn't including Guy in that. That was directed more at the hobbyist's and people who just feel like they "have" to chime in for no good reason.
> 
> I consider Guy one of the most 'erudite' people here and have probably spent more time watching his walkthroughs that anyone else's. Seriously, if the diatribe was left between he and Spitfire (who also put an insane amount of good willed effort into their work), I don't think any of this would've happened.
> 
> The problem (I find) is that some people are compelled to vomit their opinions just because there's a platform. A lot of people don't understand the concept of "constructive criticism". You (and you know who you are) are the reason the internet can suck.



Who exactly (if they know who they are) are you talking about?


----------



## Arbee

Am I going mad or did I just see a thoughtful response from Guy posted here by someone.... ~o) 

.


----------



## Christof

Yes it was there for a short while.


----------



## Markus S




----------



## AC986

prodigalson @ Thu Mar 05 said:


> The problem (I find) is that some people are compelled to vomit their opinions just because there's a platform. A lot of people don't understand the concept of "constructive criticism". You (and you know who you are) are the reason the internet can suck.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who exactly (if they know who they are) are you talking about?
Click to expand...


I don't care who they are but I would like the direction of this thread to veer off its present to course to allow me to start insulting and vilifying morons without it getting edited out.


----------



## G.R. Baumann

Arbee @ Fri Mar 06 said:


> Am I going mad or did I just see a thoughtful response from Guy posted here by someone.... ~o)
> 
> .



Not mad.  I posted it, but it was a misunderstanding. Guy wanted me to post a reply to Piet on his behalf, I thought he wanted it to go public, so I deleted it.

Having said that, I then offered him to post here on his behalf if he wants me to do so. I might get banned for that too then, but I am happy to do this for Guy.

Anyhow, he is fine, and very grateful for the support that was expressed to him in abundance.


----------



## Arbee

Oh, thanks - I was pleased to read it while it lasted o-[][]-o 

.


----------



## blougui

Have I missed something ?
Where's Piet intervention : deleted already ? Was that a joke ?

- Erik


----------



## Simon Ravn

blougui @ Fri Mar 06 said:


> Have I missed something ?
> Where's Piet intervention : deleted already ? Was that a joke ?
> 
> - Erik



Page 5...


----------



## Hannes_F

FYI Guy should been able to post since two days or so, at least that is what the site admin said.


----------



## chrisr

That's good news, thanks Hannes. I hope he decides to return.


----------



## tokatila

chrisr @ Fri Mar 06 said:


> That's good news, thanks Hannes. I hope he decides to return.



That's easy, just say the magic word:

"Omnispherus-overratus!"


----------



## HardyP

tokatila @ 2015-03-06 said:


> That's easy, just say the magic word:
> 
> "Omnispherus-overratus!"


ROFL, That made my day….


----------



## blougui

Simon Ravn @ Fri Mar 06 said:


> blougui @ Fri Mar 06 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have I missed something ?
> Where's Piet intervention : deleted already ? Was that a joke ?
> 
> - Erik
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Page 5...
Click to expand...


Thanx Simon. I wouldn't miss his pompeous prose for an empire...


----------



## Guy Rowland

Hi!

Ah look yes, it does seem the ban has been lifted. So it's lovely to be able to thank everyone who ever said anything even vaguely nice about me in my absence, and many of you went much further than that. I did begin to question my sanity for a while, I'll confess - was I monster all along and never knew it? Was I someone who deliberately set out to cause trouble? Happily through private messages here (which I've only just caught up with), messages outside the forum from lurkers who were bothered enough to dig around and find my contact details, and those here in this thread, I've decided that no, I'm not actually a monster. Probably.

Though from time to time, by popular agreement, I do go on a little bit.

I've written to Frederick, this whole little drama has raised many important issues in the community here I think, there have been some excellent contributions in this very thread about the whole subject. I'll spare you my (interminable) thoughts on them all - for the moment anyway. Hey, we all know they're coming sooner or later. But I felt contacting Frederick first to at least try and repair whatever has gone wrong here between us was a good start - if that is possible. As ever, I'm the eternal optimist - surely it isn't beyond the wit of us all to figure out a way forward here for developers and punters? (or is that what got me in trouble in the first place?)

Only one other thing for now, anyway. Women. Someone said we need more women here. Good lord we do, we desperately do. It's shameful that we have only a handful of female composers here - I know for a fact that there are many many more out there. If I may be allowed one soap-box moment in my emotional comeback post its this - please can ALL of us think before posting stuff that not all women will feel super-warmly welcomed by. This ain't a boy's locker room. Or if it is, it really shouldn't be.

Right, loathsome sanctimonious moment over. And again, thanks so so so much to everyone for understanding and support.


----------



## Jaap

Great! Glad to have you back Guy!

On the subject of women. I am very guilty about derailing that in this topic and my sincere apologies to all the female composer out here. It's very true what you say, that this aint a boys locker room. Maybe we can learn also from this whole subject that we shouldn't be measuring d***s either and that we can continue posting on this forum in a free mature and liberal environment.


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

Welcome back: group hug!


----------



## synergy543

Welcome back Guy. Its good to know there is sensibility across the forum once again.

o-[][]-o 

To Everyone - 
I hope we can continue discuss freely with each other without inhibition and with mutual respect for one another. Its no fun having to tip-toe on tenterhooks as some of us learned to do on NS. Its such a delicate but important balance to maintain in order to keep this the special place that it has been. Mutual respect (even when we agree to disagree) is the key. As well is having tolerance for one another and keeping in mind that someone's opinion may be different from yours and that's OK. Its not a judgement but an opinion. And that's what makes it beautiful! - the fact that we can have different opinions and still freely share our thoughts in a non-judgemental way with one another.


----------



## stixman

:D


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

synergy543 @ Fri Mar 06 said:


> Welcome back Guy. Its good to know there is sensibility across the forum once again.
> 
> o-[][]-o
> 
> To Everyone -
> I hope we can continue discuss freely with each other without inhibition and with mutual respect for one another. Its no fun having to tip-toe on tenterhooks as some of us learned to do on NS. Its such a delicate but important balance to maintain in order to keep this the special place that it has been. Mutual respect (even when we agree to disagree) is the key. As well is having tolerance for one another and keeping in mind that someone's opinion may be different from yours and that's OK. Its not a judgement but an opinion. And that's what makes it beautiful! - the fact that we can have different opinions and still freely share our thoughts in a non-judgemental way with one another.



I'll drink to that !

o-[][]-o


----------



## EastWest Lurker

OK, I edited this out. Mike Greene didn't like it and not only is he a moderator he is too big to risk pissing off 

Also, I respect his opinion.


----------



## NYC Composer

WB, Guy. I'm very happy to see that the timeout was brief.


----------



## NYC Composer

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Mar 06 said:


> I think some of you have a potentially promising alternate career as soap opera script writers



Not that your pithy comments didn't qualify you as well....


----------



## EastWest Lurker

Fuhgedaboutit


----------



## Mike Greene

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Mar 06 said:


> NYC Composer @ Fri Mar 06 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EastWest Lurker @ Fri Mar 06 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think some of you have a potentially promising alternate career as soap opera script writers [/quote
> Not that your pithy comments didn't qualify you as well....
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think you will find any of mine debating "free speech" in this little forum a cause comparable to ending apartheid in South Africa like some here
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Possibly, but what you wrote was still a condescending jab. Soap opera drama invariably ensues.

In any event, I'm glad to see you back, Guy. 8)


----------



## AC986

Hey Guy. Good to see you back.


----------



## EastWest Lurker

Nevermind.


----------



## woodsdenis

Good to see you back Guy.


----------



## blougui

This is good news.
Welcome back, Guy.
I just hope the whole drama has ended, even if temporarly.
- Erik

[edit:forgot a word, as so often - anf if not forgotter, mispelled. Hopefully nobody reads my boring posts ! :D ]


----------



## playz123

Guy Rowland @ Fri Mar 06 said:


> Someone said we need more women here. Good lord we do, we desperately do. It's shameful that we have only a handful of female composers here - I know for a fact that there are many many more out there. If I may be allowed one soap-box moment in my emotional comeback post its this - please can ALL of us think before posting stuff that not all women will feel super-warmly welcomed by. This ain't a boy's locker room. Or if it is, it really shouldn't be.



Totally agree. A better balance to the forum in that respect would be welcome, and I would like to think that everyone, men and women, would feel comfortable here. That doesn't mean that everyone would agree or that women would always approach things differently than men, but then again IMHO it does indeed turn into a bit of a "boy's locker room" atmosphere here on occasion. Female composers appear here from time to time, but then seem to disappear again, so something isn't quite right, no matter how one feels about this.

Oh, by the way, welcome back from your 'vacation' Guy!


----------



## 5Lives

Nice to see Guy back - I feel he's contributed a lot of great stuff to the forum. That sort of contribution - and content - is what makes this place appealing and special.


----------



## Cowtothesky

Welcome back, Guy. I also enjoy your contributions. 

Like many others, chalk me up as someone wanting mutually respectful discussions on libraries. I love non-biased insight and that is one of the cool things about this forum, and forums in general. It's good to see a resolution to all of this. =o


----------



## Arbee

chillbot @ Sat Mar 07 said:


> For what it's worth (not much) as a newcomer and one that appreciates staying somewhat anonymous (more of a lurker, but donates to the site) I've followed all these threads and they left a bad taste in my mouth. I found in my year here the most consistently helpful users to me (just off the top of my head) have been Guy, adriancook, gsilbers, and rgames. Anyway thanks to all of you and no biggie not wanting to create drama but it is what it is, I'm taking vi-control off of my favorites bar. I'm not sure how to voice it, other than I don't like what's happened and I don't feel like it is what I thought it is. I can get the same feedback through my friends in LA I guess.
> 
> BTW, these will sound like fighting words but I don't mean it that way... I sought out this forum specifically because I was in need of new samples and in the last year I dropped $20k+ on samples specifically because of what I found on this site. So cheers to vi-control. Not really the big ones but I snatched up every smaller gem I could find that I otherwise wouldn't have found. And almost all of them have been fantastic!


I'm kind of with you chillbot. I sense it might be time to thank everyone for helping me make some great purchasing decisions for my return to music a couple of years ago. And to thank those refreshing irreverent souls who just "put it out there" and who anticipate that us adults will make up our own minds about how we interpret their words and intent.

Sadly I sense the ground has shifted, I used the term "infomercial" in an earlier post, and I now feel a growing need to return to Google in pursuit of the odd piece of brutal honesty to navigate the subtle and not-so-subtle commercial influences that surround us.

.


----------



## G.R. Baumann

o-[][]-o WB Guy

Do you have Albion IV already? Personally, I am waiting until we moved house somehwere this year and I can get a complete my bundle option for Albion later.

So long
G


----------



## Guy Rowland

Thanks to all the public and private welcome backs, its awfully nice to read them.

Getting a better way forward on this tricky area I do think is important. Of course it's not an Ebola-serious issue, but in our little internet backwater Northern Sounds stands a permanent reminder and warning from history of how to get it horribly wrong. VI-C isn't at that level of course, but if some get jittery I can totally understand why. - NS casts a long shadow.

Thing is, almost every single person here wants the same basic things - a strong healthy forum populated by professionals, students and dedicated amateurs, not censorious on the one hand, not abusive and anarchic on the other. And we're not SO far from that. Hopeful that as a community we can figure it out the rest of it.


----------



## Hannes_F

Guy Rowland @ Sat Mar 07 said:


> Thing is, almost every single person here wants the same basic things - a strong healthy forum populated by professionals, students and dedicated amateurs, not censorious on the one hand, not abusive and anarchic on the other. And we're not SO far from that. Hopeful that as a community we can figure it out the rest of it.



+1 to that and welcome back, Guy.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

Guy, are you going to write a book now? FWIW, I think Ben Affleck would make a good Guy Rowland in the film adaptation!


----------



## TomcatToo

Just in case no one has looked lately, NS is as dead as the catacombs. I don't think even Papachalk is around much anymore; I think the whole thing is on autopilot.

Tom


----------



## kitekrazy

dinerdog @ Fri Mar 06 said:


> For the record, when I said "if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all", I actually wasn't including Guy in that. *That was directed more at the hobbyist's and people who just feel like they "have" to chime in for no good reason.
> *
> I consider Guy one of the most 'erudite' people here and have probably spent more time watching his walkthroughs that anyone else's. Seriously, if the diatribe was left between he and Spitfire (who also put an insane amount of good willed effort into their work), I don't think any of this would've happened.
> 
> The problem (I find) is that some people are compelled to vomit their opinions just because there's a platform. A lot of people don't understand the concept of "constructive criticism". You (and you know who you are) are the reason the internet can suck.



Yes, lets make sure the arrogance doesn't go away that many outsiders claim exist in this forum. What an ass comment.


----------



## EastWest Lurker

Kitekrazy, there is surely, however, an argument to be made for, "if you know that you do not really know what you are talking about, say nothing", no?


----------



## Daryl

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Mar 07 said:


> Kitekrazy, there is surely, however, an argument to be made for, "if you know that you do not really know what you are talking about, say nothing", no?


Don't be ridiculous, Jay. How on earth would the Internet function, if that view was the norm? :shock: 

D


----------



## EastWest Lurker

Daryl @ Sat Mar 07 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sat Mar 07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kitekrazy, there is surely, however, an argument to be made for, "if you know that you do not really know what you are talking about, say nothing", no?
> 
> 
> 
> Don't be ridiculous, Jay. How on earth would the Internet function, if that view was the norm? :shock:
> 
> D
Click to expand...


In a word, better


----------



## dinerdog

kitekrazy - I don't even know what your talking about (or if your even talking to me).

What I'm talking about is just a normal filter, not the need to say everything that comes to your mind or every little flaw or discovery you make just because there's an audience for it.

I mean, do you want to have to troll through everything everyone wants to say because they can? I've said too much already.


----------



## NYC Composer

Daryl @ Sat Mar 07 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sat Mar 07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kitekrazy, there is surely, however, an argument to be made for, "if you know that you do not really know what you are talking about, say nothing", no?
> 
> 
> 
> Don't be ridiculous, Jay. How on earth would the Internet function, if that view was the norm? :shock:
> 
> D
Click to expand...


And who, exactly, will be the final arbiter?

Isn't it easier to ignore what you consider to be "know nothing" posts and posters than to rail about them, when that will accomplish nothing?

Personal filtering works.


----------



## stonzthro

Wow, Northern Sounds - that takes me back!

Welcome back Guy!


----------



## Darthmorphling

NYC Composer @ Sat Mar 07 said:


> Daryl @ Sat Mar 07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EastWest Lurker @ Sat Mar 07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kitekrazy, there is surely, however, an argument to be made for, "if you know that you do not really know what you are talking about, say nothing", no?
> 
> 
> 
> Don't be ridiculous, Jay. How on earth would the Internet function, if that view was the norm? :shock:
> 
> D
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And who, exactly, will be the final arbiter?
> 
> Isn't it easier to ignore what you consider to be "know nothing" posts and posters than to rail about them, when that will accomplish nothing?
> 
> Personal filtering works.
Click to expand...


What gets me about the "elites" at this forum, is they seem to equate their vast knowledge of music as translatable to everything else. 

Many here know a crapload about orchestration, but that doesn't translate to education, politics, business ventures, anti-piracy measures, etc... On all those fronts they are just like us "hobbyists". People with opinions. Yet they spout off like being paid to make music means they know more about everything than the "mere mortals".

This is not everyone, of course, just a few.


----------



## EastWest Lurker

Personally, I generally don't talk about what I don't know about.


----------



## RiffWraith

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Mar 08 said:


> Personally, I generally don't talk about what I don't know about.



If that were the case, you'd hardly talk at all.













I kid *I KID!!!!!!!!! *o=<


----------



## EastWest Lurker

RiffWraith @ Sat Mar 07 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sun Mar 08 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I generally don't talk about what I don't know about.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If that were the case, you'd hardly talk at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I kid *I KID!!!!!!!!! *o=<
Click to expand...


----------



## Darthmorphling

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Mar 07 said:


> Personally, I generally don't talk about what I don't know about.



Jay you do have your opinions, we all do, and yours mostly come from a good place. But you have to admit that there is a tendency for people here to behave like their word is gospel.


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## EastWest Lurker

Darthmorphling @ Sat Mar 07 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sat Mar 07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I generally don't talk about what I don't know about.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jay you do have your opinions, we all do, and yours mostly comes from a good place. But you have to admit that there is a tendency for people here to behave like their word is gospel.
Click to expand...


I think that is partly an issue with making statements in writing, where people can't see the expression on your face or hear your tone of voice.


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## Niah

What about when you think you know but you know nothing at all?


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## Daryl

Niah @ Sun Mar 08 said:


> What about when you think you know but you know nothing at all?


And there lies the problem. That is (to quote myself) phase two, and the problem is that the people in this phase doesn't know that they are in this phase.

There is no answer, except to say that one hopes that they make it to phase three and then they will realise their error. :wink: 

D


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## Niah

Daryl @ Sun Mar 08 said:


> Niah @ Sun Mar 08 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What about when you think you know but you know nothing at all?
> 
> 
> 
> And there lies the problem. That is (to quote myself) phase two, and the problem is that the people in this phase doesn't know that they are in this phase.
> 
> There is no answer, except to say that one hopes that they make it to phase three and then they will realise their error. :wink:
> 
> D
Click to expand...


Amen to that


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## Fleer

Maybe this isn't the thread, nor the time, but what the heck:

thank you, Frederick Russ, for running such a great forum !


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## NYC Composer

Fleer @ Sun Mar 08 said:


> Maybe this isn't the thread, nor the time, but what the heck:
> 
> thank you, Frederick Russ, for running such a great forum !



I can barely remember the amount of times I've said that, but it's far more than the fingers on both hands, and +1. I fight for this place because I truly love it and care about it. It's the only forum I contribute thoughts and money to, and it's a wonderful community.


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## TomcatToo

Well, at 102 years you must be a looooooonnnnggg time member!

Tom


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