# Mac Pro trash can USERS



## fraz

Hi,

There must be quite a few Mac Pro trash can users here! - Have you enjoyed your trash can Mac Pro's?

I've read lots of mixed reviews and opinions about them - but seriously how have your experiences been?


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## resonate

They work fine (personally using a Cheesegrater) check out Andy's Gray setup :


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## danbo

I have one and am happy with it. It's silent, I've never spun the fans unless I really tried with a stress test and even then it's quiet. Power usage is ridiculous, 12-20W idling, I leave it on all the time. It does mean you need a lot of thunderbolt accessories so the overall cost of ownership is higher, but it's OK. That also means you can push the drives off to a silent box too so it's good for studio work. The small size works really well in my studio. 

Disappointments: 

SSD is special, I've tried the OWC one to upgrade but it twerked the computer for unknown reason
CPU was an older one on release and it's not upgradable
Only supports 64GB RAM maximum
GPU options are fixed and non upgradable. Can ONLY access the second GPU via special programming because of the hardware routing, so basically it's useless. Few applications use the OpenCL necessary for using the dual GPU.


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## babylonwaves

danbo said:


> Only supports 64GB RAM maximum



the vader helmet mac pro supports 128GB across the line


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## fraz

I know there will be a new Mac Pro soon but I'd like to ask about the late 2013 models.

8 core - 3.0 GHz 8 Core Xeon E5-1680v2
12 core -2.7 GHz 12 Core Xeon E5-2697v2

8 core benchmark
--------------------
https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?id=2342

12 core benchmark
----------------------
https://www.cpubenchmark.net/[email protected]+2.70GHz&id=2009

There doesn't seem to be a big difference in the score despite having 4 extra cores albeit clocked 300 Mhz lower. I couldn't find a versus comparison.

What is the real world difference between the two Mac Pro's late 2013? - eg how much better is it over the 8 core?

EDIT- I found the answer here
https://www.primatelabs.com/blog/2013/11/estimating-mac-pro-performance/


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## Sami

babylonwaves said:


> the vader helmet mac pro supports 128GB across the line





Are these any good for running a 128gb ram template without a slave? They are basically a steal at this point and the 10-core cpus are cheap to find and easy to swap in


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## tmhuud

I have 2 helmets rack mounted. I put 4tb drives in them myself and those things scream. I almost wish I had more sample libraries in those drives but most of the samples live in the 3 magic docks. Swapping processors is not for the faint of heart but with patience you can do it. The processor swaps we did on our cheese graters was a tad easier. Read up on the proper procedure for applying thermal paste! There’s a lot of theories out there on what’s right and what’s wrong.


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## fraz

I must apologize for not being well in on the Mac lingo -  - The Vader helmet (this can't be the trash can can it? as it only supports 64 GB RAM and not 128 GB. The new iMac Pro? (the vader helmet)?


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## fraz

I had to look this up-Vader helmet below.

So how can this support 128 GB RAM? - Does this mean 4 x 32 GB?


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## Nick Batzdorf

My upgraded 2009 3.46GHz 12-core w/64GB RAM was $1350 on ebay 1-1/2 years ago.

The current 8-core Mac Pro is over $5K.

Need one say more?


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## tmhuud

https://eshop.macsales.com/upgrades/mac-pro-4-core-late-2013-3.7-ghz/memory

OWC sells a 128.0 GB memory upgrade for the nMac Pro, aka Vader helmet/ aka trash can.


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## hawpri

tmhuud said:


> https://eshop.macsales.com/upgrades/mac-pro-4-core-late-2013-3.7-ghz/memory
> 
> OWC sells a 128.0 GB memory upgrade for the nMac Pro, aka Vader helmet/ aka trash can.


That's what I have. No problems with it.


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## dcoscina

Great thread especially because I’m looking to get one of these off lease as my 3,1 MP is dying a slow death


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## jonnybutter

My vader works very well. I hesitated a lot before getting it because it seemed expensive for a 5+ year old machine, but am glad now. It's a 6 core w/64 GB of RAM. It's quiet and powerful. I have a slave mac connected via VEP, but I find I don't have to turn it on much of the time. I use the Blackmagic dock. Can't complain.


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## fraz

hawpri said:


> That's what I have. No problems with it.


OK so the 4 x 32 GB just "pops in" is this correct? - eg no other modification needed?

You lot are real hardcore, sometimes on forums there are no replies, not here!


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## hawpri

fraz said:


> OK so the 4 x 32 GB just "pops in" is this correct? - eg no other modification needed?
> 
> You lot are real hardcore, sometimes on forums there are no replies, not here!


Yep, it was a normal RAM upgrade with no other steps. After putting them in I turned it on and (thankfully!) it worked.


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## mikeh-375

I too have the OWC 128Gb ram. in my helmet (pardon...)Bus speed goes down with this config, but I can run a 35 minute Logic Pro piece that uses about 110Gb before it starts to get a bit shirty, all off ssd's and a Blackmagic Dock.
There was an issue with the AMD Firepro D300 card that caused freezing and as far as I know, there still is as I am suffering from it occasionally. I believe Apple supplied a fix for the other two cards that are available for the tower - the D500+700 - but for some reason , not the D300! Anyone know any different, please pm me.


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## Wunderhorn

It is doing its job in my studio but by now the trashcan is pretty outdated. Most software companies never supported the second built-in graphic card including most Adobe applications, so that is a dead component for which we had to pay...
I never liked the fact that you have no internal slots for HDs or even SSDs. Cable mess was guaranteed and it did not get prettier over the years..
Luckily the fan is relatively quiet, but other PC workstation manufacturers have already proven that with proper heat sinks, you don't need to have a fan in a tower machine at all which for making music I would definitely prefer.
Still, in terms of expandability and flexibility it still is the better choice against any iMac in my opinion (E.g. I want to choose my own screen etc).
I am really in need of a much faster machine, so I will see if Apple can deliver next year. If not, I will have to get a Windows workstation (After 25 years working with Apple computers, what a shame...)


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## charlieclouser

I have two of the Mac Pro cylinders - a 6-core for ProTools (HD Native Thunderbolt+Avid MADI+SyncHD) and a 12-core for Logic (MOTU AVB 112d+1248, two MultiDocks, UAD2 Octo Thunderbolt, 4k display, etc.).

They are silent. Zero issues in three years. Raw CPU power is not a massive leap over my previous 12-core silver towers, but I wanted 4k displays, Thunderbolt, HDMI, and all that other good stuff. Cable mess is no worse than before - on my silver towers all slots+bays were full so if I wanted more storage I had to use FireWire, so I just ran up against the limits of what those systems could do. The old rig, with two silver towers with PTHD3 on one and Logic+MOTU PCIe on the other, was housed in a refrigerator-sized soundproof rack. The new rig is two six-space racks with the cylinders on top, and the whole thing fits on my Argosy Dual-15k behind the displays. No more long DVI cables, USB extenders, etc. Much better.

I'd buy them again in a minute - but I am anxious to see what the next revision will be. I'm sure I'll buy into those as well.


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## babylonwaves

mikeh-375 said:


> There was an issue with the AMD Firepro D300 card that caused freezing and as far as I know, there still is as I am suffering from it occasionally. I believe Apple supplied a fix for the other two cards that are available for the tower - the D500+700 - but for some reason , not the D300! Anyone know any different, please pm me.


I have a 300. can you describe in which context which component (or the entire OS?) freezes? permanently or for a while? because I don't have freezes as far as I can see.


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## tmhuud

Wunderhorn said:


> Cable mess was guaranteed and it did not get prettier over the years..



There’s ways around cable mess and expandability. 

https://www.guitarcenter.com/Sonnet...303557677-sku^[email protected]^PLA

If your like me and pretty integrated into the ‘APpLE’ community just get the best machine you can afford but surround it with PC slaves. But even if I upgraded every time a new faster PC came out I don’t think I’d get any work done.


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## mikeh-375

Hey Babylon,
There is plenty about this online so you'll easily find it. My freezes mean the whole system just corpses and nothing but holding the power button down will sort it. When I re-boot, the screens stay dark until I hit the space bar and everything comes up ok.
I have a magic mouse and the freeze most often occurs when I swipe a window in LogicPro. Weirdly though, if I am playing a track at the time, the audio carries on perfectly! I'd say it happens about 2 maybe 3 times a week here, but everyone's story is different and from what I have read, there are worse scenarios. It is a bummer as I am, as we speak ,considering buying a 2nd used tower as a slave but am hesitant because of this issue. I did read recently that High Sierra seemed to have sorted it out for one, got hopeful and then read the complete opposite elsewhere....oh what to do???


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## babylonwaves

mikeh-375 said:


> Hey Babylon,
> There is plenty about this online so you'll easily find it. My freezes mean the whole system just corpses and nothing but holding the power button down will sort it. When I re-boot, the screens stay dark until I hit the space bar and everything comes up ok.
> I have a magic mouse and the freeze most often occurs when I swipe a window in LogicPro. Weirdly though, if I am playing a track at the time, the audio carries on perfectly!


wow, i don't have that at all. 2 monitors, logic, 10.12.6 and a magic track pad. you mean swipe as in a gesture to move or zoom the arrangement around?


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## mikeh-375

Yes, exactly. I am still on El Cap though and should probably update. Is yours a late2013 6core? if so you are lucky I guess. Anyway, regardless of that GPU annoyance, the OWC ram upgrade works very well and big templates can be had so long as you are on ssd's
edit..sorry BWaves I thought you where the OP for a moment there....


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## Sami

mikeh-375 said:


> Yes, exactly. I am still on El Cap though and should probably update. Is yours a late2013 6core? if so you are lucky I guess. Anyway, regardless of that GPU annoyance, the OWC ram upgrade works very well and big templates can be had so long as you are on ssd's
> edit..sorry BWaves I thought you where the OP for a moment there....



What kind of polyphony are you seeing before dropouts and on what buffers in a large template?


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## Saxer

I use one since 2013 too... 8core 64GB. Simply works.

Here's my unboxing video from years ago...


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## mikeh-375

Sami said:


> What kind of polyphony are you seeing before dropouts and on what buffers in a large template?



Hey Sami,
I can't really answer the polyphony count precisely as it varies and I don't pay too much attention to it until something crops up - and that doesn't happen often. If things get a bit slow, I bounce in place. The Hans Zimmer piano has caused problems in the past iirc, especially with pedal work when sustaining and sometimes too many mics on other instruments can be a hog as well - I remember some of the extra mics for Mural strings causing dropout, but they where not on SSD at that time and I am about to put the SSS expansion on to SSD so I hope that'll sort out the issue.
Latency can be a pain when programming at times, especially if you are a pianist like me, but I find a sample buffer of 512 in Logic workable. My bus speed is lower due to the OWC Ram and that is more than likely a contributor to any issues but I'd much rather have things to hand immediately hence the 128Gb. Hope that helps....


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## fraz

Hi,

Regarding 27" monitors, I've seen LG on Apple website which would be good for iMac or Mac Pro - Are there any others worthy of consideration? - eg - what other options are there?

I did come accross a 24" with all the connections on DP/DVI/VGA/HDMI-not that all are needed btw....


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## samphony

Like all others here. I have mine since 2013/2014 too. Zero issues. I initially bought a 6 core for logic. A friend of mine upgraded it and swapped the 6core for a 12xeon cpu. 

I’m now running a similar setup to Charlie where one Vader is for logic and the second for PT. 

I would buy them again in a minute.


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## PeterKorcek

My friend wants to buy one, there is a guy selling Mac Pro 2013 at 8core config, 32 GB RAM, 1TB PCIe and D700 graphic cards - it is basically super config and the RAM is upgradable I think, if he needs 64 GB ram let's say. The price is 2900 USD, which I think is very good.
But you still need monitor for that and probably thunderbolt storage or something, which will take the price higher, but I still think it's quite a good deal? (I know 5 year old machine, but they are generally super stable with those server Xeon processors)


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## fraz

I've read online it's Mac Pro 2013 made between "February 8, 2015 and April 11, 2015"


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## Bear Market

fraz said:


> Hi,
> 
> Regarding 27" monitors, I've seen LG on Apple website which would be good for iMac or Mac Pro - Are there any others worthy of consideration? - eg - what other options are there?
> 
> I did come accross a 24" with all the connections on DP/DVI/VGA/HDMI-not that all are needed btw....



You could check out the Apple Thunderbolt displays. They're a bit bulky compared to the current offerings but they are of solid build quality and can be vesa-mounted. I have two 27" ones myself and am quite pleased with them.

EDIT: you get some thunderbolt and usb ports as well!


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## fraz

But the thunderbolt displays are not available from Apple now are they? so it'd be a used one right?


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## Bear Market

fraz said:


> But the thunderbolt displays are not available from Apple now are they? so it'd be a used one right?



Right, you'd have to look at pre-owned. The occasional new-in-box can be found on ebay but they're usually crazy expensive.


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## fraz

I'll pause on this for now but another question - 

For the Mac Pro connection of monitors is via the mini display port (physical connector type) to - VGA/DVI/HDMI/DP (Apple) -there are other brands too which are quite a bit cheaper - benfei/StarTech/Ivanky/Ugreen/Rankie/

Are there any makes to avoid?


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## charlieclouser

I use Samsung displays, but I have also tried LG and they worked fine. None of them have Mini-DisplayPort; I connected them all using a Mini-DisplayPort > DisplayPort cable ($15) and that worked just fine at full 4k resolution.


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## fraz

charlieclouser said:


> I use Samsung displays, but I have also tried LG and they worked fine. None of them have Mini-DisplayPort; I connected them all using a Mini-DisplayPort > DisplayPort cable ($15) and that worked just fine at full 4k resolution.



Yes I did see that Apple don't have a mini-display port > display port cable - but other sites do have! -thanks


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## fraz

For the thunderbolt 2 on Mac Pro 2013 @ 20 Gb/s - Is this shared across all six mini-display port inputs?

Daisy chaining of up to 6 thunderbolt devices per port = 36 thunderbolt devices (theoretical) - But this is based on the assumption that each mini-display port will operate @ 20 Gb/s - Surely this is not the case is it?

It's more like the 20 Gb/s is shared across all six inputs - this is correct isn't it?

It's not like I'd want to connect 36 thunderbolt devices btw!!! - It's a query on the bandwidth.

On a PC if a thunderbolt PCI-e card is added it's usually 1 thunderbolt input (sometimes 2 as in Asus EX II Dual)-but even then it still shares the 20 Gb/s bandwidth from the PCI-e buss which is either PCI-e GEN 2 @ x4 or GEN 3 @ x4 which would be the difference between 20 Gb/s and 40 Gb/s

Back to the 36 thunderbolt devices analogy into the Mac Pro 2013 - 36 devices / 20 Gb/s = 1.8 Gb/s per device which would be slower than SATA III 6 Gb/s!!!-that is if all 6 inputs share the 20 Gb/s-Anyhow just some confirmation on this would be handy to keep an eye on the bandwidth calculation


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## charlieclouser

It's 20 Gb/sec on each *pair* of ports on the Mac Pro cylinder. Each pair of ports is called a "Thunderbolt Bus" and each is roughly equivalent to a single PCIe slot, so the architecture is similar to the 3-slot arrangement on the silver Mac Pro towers. See attached picture for an explanation.








I have a 4k display on one TB Bus, two fully-loaded MultiDocks *and* a 2560x1440 display on the second TB Bus, and on the third TB Bus I have a UAD2-Octo Thunderbolt DSP box *and* a MOTU 112d+1248 setup. The MOTU setup is configured to provide 128 channels of audio i/o to the host, and even with that and the UAD box maxed out there have been no problems. I think for a while I had the 4k display and the 2560x1440 display on the same TB Bus by accident but everything worked fine. I basically just plug stuff in wherever I want and it always works.

The only restrictions on this setup in terms of being in danger of saturating any one of the TB Busses is if you're trying to use two 4k displays on the same TB Bus. I was told that a single 4k display can use more than 50% of a TB2 Bus depending on refresh rate, but I haven't tested this. The guy who wrote the TB drivers and firmware for the MOTU AVB audio interfaces told me that for audio use I could put my 128 i/o MOTU rig and as many UAD boxes as I wanted on the same TB2 Bus and not be in any danger of saturation. He actually kind of chuckled when I asked if I was in danger of saturating the bus when using it for audio. He was like, "not a chance". 

That said, TB3 via USB-C is potentially double the bandwidth of TB2 - so 40 Gb/sec. If there is a successor to the Mac Pro cylinder it will undoubtedly use TB3 on USB-C connectors. It would be a very Apple-like decision to have nothing on the back but a row of identical connectors.


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## fraz

omg that is straight out of the manual, how did you manage that?-thank you!

So the six ports are split into pairs (understood) - and it's like having 3 Asus TH EX II cards in the system (equivalent)-On a Windows machine I built, 1 PCI-e card goes into the PCI-e slot-and then a cable from the card to the thunderbolt header OR on some Intel motherboards the USB-c/thunderbolt 3 goes straight into the back panel without the need for an add in card.

So, there is clearly more thunderbolt bandwidth than on a Windows machine but a Windows machine would have other PCI-e slots but not thunderbolt compatible.

60 Gb/s full bandwidth.

So your UAD DSP box is the Satellite is it?-And good to gear the maximum allowable UAD devices, 4 interfaces & 2 dsp expanders won't saturate 1 of the thunderbolt busses.

So for using a display for audio it may be a better idea to use a non 4k monitor then both could be put on the same thunderbolt buss without risk of running out of bandwidth.??? - just an idea

Anyway thanks for an excellent explanation


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## babylonwaves

fraz said:


> So for using a display for audio it may be a better idea to use a non 4k monitor then both could be put on the same thunderbolt buss without risk of running out of bandwidth.??? - just an idea


unless you put both displays on #0 it'll be fine. i share the audio interface bus (#1) with one 2k display, have my RAID on the second bus (#2) and the second 4k display on bus #0. it also works if I swap the two displays so the 2k display is on #0. i had 2 4k display running with the same configuration and that also worked.
whatever you do: don't cross the beams


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## charlieclouser

fraz said:


> So your UAD DSP box is the Satellite is it?-And good to gear the maximum allowable UAD devices, 4 interfaces & 2 dsp expanders won't saturate 1 of the thunderbolt busses.
> 
> So for using a display for audio it may be a better idea to use a non 4k monitor then both could be put on the same thunderbolt buss without risk of running out of bandwidth.??? - just an idea
> 
> Anyway thanks for an excellent explanation



Well, unless I've slipped a digit somewhere, it looks like you can do around 3,500 mono channels of 24bit / 96k audio for around 1Gb/sec. So that's probably why my MOTU guy chuckled when I asked if it was okay to put the UAD box and the AVB interfaces on the same TB2 bus. The MOTU rig maxes out at 128 channels in each direction, plus whatever it would take to crush a UAD2 - but let's pretend that each UAD2 had enough juice for 128 channels of processing, and you need to get the audio to and from, so that would be the same bandwidth as 128 channels of MOTU in each direction - and you had eight UAD2 boxes. That would be nine bricks of 256 channels each, or 2,304 channels of 24/96k audio - much less than a single TB2 bus can handle.

Is my math correct? Anybody want to check me on this?


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## fraz

I don't know enough to comment on your calculations apart from it's an awful lot of channels - period - 

Anyway time for some advice please - I've just received an open box Mac Pro 2013 very good spec that is brand new with wrappers on etc.....however, there is only the cylinder & a power plug - There is no OS X disc(s) etc....but it may be installed.

If this was bought from Apple direct would it include discs and a few extra's?

I do have an Apple ID and can buy the OS if it is needed. I do think the OS may be installed already but won't know till I try it out - but I'm waiting on a > mini-display port > HDMI cable just to connect it the the TV

It will have an OS on won't it?


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## Simon Ravn

The OS should definitely be pre-installed. Apple don't sell computers without an OS on them.


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## babylonwaves

fraz said:


> If this was bought from Apple direct would it include discs and a few extra's?


without a CDROM there is not much use for discs (which apple stop producing and shipping some years ago ...) you can use internet recovery to install the OS instead. and yes, as simon says, macs ship with an OS installed.


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## fraz

Ah OK that should be good then - I needed a quick dash to the mac store to get a keyboard etc....including a Superdrive as I do have discs for installers but I get your point that if Mac has the OS on and there are updates they are via download so no need for discs.


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## dcoscina

Simon Ravn said:


> The OS should definitely be pre-installed. Apple don't sell computers without an OS on them.


Not only that, they don’t charge for OS updates any longer...


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## Nick Batzdorf

charlieclouser said:


> Well, unless I've slipped a digit somewhere, it looks like you can do around 3,500 mono channels of 24bit / 96k audio for around 1Gb/sec. So that's probably why my MOTU guy chuckled when I asked if it was okay to put the UAD box and the AVB interfaces on the same TB2 bus. The MOTU rig maxes out at 128 channels in each direction, plus whatever it would take to crush a UAD2 - but let's pretend that each UAD2 had enough juice for 128 channels of processing, and you need to get the audio to and from, so that would be the same bandwidth as 128 channels of MOTU in each direction - and you had eight UAD2 boxes. That would be nine bricks of 256 channels each, or 2,304 channels of 24/96k audio - much less than a single TB2 bus can handle.
> 
> Is my math correct? Anybody want to check me on this?



What is the algorithm? I've asked before how to figure out bandwidth/channels, and you seem to be the only one who can answer!

My confusion is between gigabits and gigabytes.


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## fraz

dcoscina said:


> Not only that, they don’t charge for OS updates any longer...



Hello,

Got a trashcan now set up, it works an open box 2013 MP - magic mouse/keyboard that has the lightening USB cable! - Went onto the Apple coverage website and put the serial # in but the website told me to come back later, pity as it would be good to ascertain the exact build date, is this possible?

Is it possible to use the keyboard and mouse (lightening cable) through a USB hub? - What do other mac folks here use? - Would any USB hub work? - 4 usb ports on this MP!

Anyhow really happy to have a MP, but I'm more used to Windows machines hence all the questions


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## charlieclouser

Nick Batzdorf said:


> What is the algorithm? I've asked before how to figure out bandwidth/channels, and you seem to be the only one who can answer!
> 
> My confusion is between gigabits and gigabytes.



If you Google "audio data rate calculator" or similar terms you'll find lots of online calculators, but they're usually oriented at calculating the required storage space per hour or minute of audio. (You can always just divide the per-hour number by 3600, or the per-minute number by 60 to get the per-second number.)

But I prefer to attempt to get the results manually. 

Here are some conversion ratios I'm using for reference:

One byte = 8 bits

One Gigabyte = 1,073,741,824 bytes, or 8,589,934,592 bits

One 24-bit sample = 24 bits (duh) = 3 bytes

One second of one channel of 24bit/48kHz audio = 1,152,000 bits = 144,000 bytes

So here is the formula I wind up using in a simple calculator:

Gigabytes per second data throughput for one audio channel = sample rate (times) word length (divided by) 8 bits per byte (divided by) 1,073,741,824 bytes per gigabyte.

So, for one channel of 24bit / 48kHz audio, we'd have: 48,000 samples per second (times) 24 bits per sample (divided by) 8 bits in each byte (divided by) 1,073,741,824 bytes in each Gigabyte = 0.00013411 Gigabytes per second, or about 0.134 Megabytes per second. (Obviously double that number for 96k).

For 10,000 channels of 24bit / 48kHz audio, we'd have: 1.3411 Gigabytes per second. 

So with all 128 channels of a MOTU AVB audio rig lit up in each direction (for 256 channels total) we'd only be using 0.03433 Gigabytes per second. 

If we're talking about SSDs and sample playback voices, the numbers don't fundamentally change but, as Evil Dragon has mentioned in other threads, other SSD performance factors like "random 4k reads" come into play, so I'll leave those calculations for another day!

I think that's why the MOTU guy chuckled when I asked if the AVB rig would saturate the TB2 bus, and if the UAD2 could live on the same TB2 bus with no problems. Regardless of how many channels are configured to go back and forth on the AVB network (which is on a separate CAT5 cable setup), the AVB rig is only providing 128 channels in each direction to the host via TB, so that number is capped at 256 channels of total load on the TB bus. All of the subsequent AVB interfaces spread across your building will be spraying their data to each other via CAT5 and there's only one interface connected via TB to your host computer, so it's that "primary" interface that sorts out and condenses all those other interfaces' data streams down into a single 128+128 channel stream, and that's what gets crammed down the TB bus.

I don't know the data structure of the UAD stuff intimately; I've been assuming that a single instance of a single mono plugin just needs one channel in and one channel out - if they've done something that causes a single mono plugin to use more than two channels' worth of data, then.... well, that would be weird. Plus I don't know how it deals with side chain stuff - like, does it need to send the side chain audio down the TB bus also? Anyway, according to the UAD chart, the most instances of any plugin that can run on a single UAD2 Octo is 800 mono channels of the LittleLabs VOG bass enhancer tool. If you put 800 mono VOG instances on a mix (and why wouldn't you?) that would use up 0.214576 Gigabytes per second. So even with eight UAD2 Octo's running a total of 6,400 instances of VOG (very common in trap music!) you'd still only be putting 1.7166 Gigabytes per second of data down the wire. That, plus a fully maxed-out AVB setup would still only put around 1.75 Gigabytes per second down the bus. No problem - so it's no longer surprising how a Dante or other audio-over-IP protocol can throw thousands of channels down a $10 CAT5 cable. Awesome.

The MOTU guy explained to me that the only folks who'd really be in danger of saturating the TB2 busses on the Mac Pro cylinder would be video guys, who need to ingest raw 8k footage at 60fps from the SSD drives they pull from a Red camera or stuff like that. The data rates these guys deal with are truly astounding. It all is really, if you think about it. Amazing stuff.


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## dcoscina

fraz said:


> Hello,
> 
> Got a trashcan now set up, it works an open box 2013 MP - magic mouse/keyboard that has the lightening USB cable! - Went onto the Apple coverage website and put the serial # in but the website told me to come back later, pity as it would be good to ascertain the exact build date, is this possible?
> 
> Is it possible to use the keyboard and mouse (lightening cable) through a USB hub? - What do other mac folks here use? - Would any USB hub work? - 4 usb ports on this MP!
> 
> Anyhow really happy to have a MP, but I'm more used to Windows machines hence all the questions


I use a wired Apple keyboard on my MP and MB Air. I have the Magic Mouse 1 and a wired Apple mouse but I've kinda gotten turned off of them so I use a generic wireless mouse and it works fine. I know a few people who use Kensington Trackballs with their MP.


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## fraz

Kensington trackball eh...sounds very posh, fwiw, this is the 1st I've heard of it!!! - Are wired mouse(s) (mice)-/keyboards!!!-still available?

thanks for the tip on the trackball!


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## charlieclouser

fraz said:


> Hello,
> 
> Got a trashcan now set up, it works an open box 2013 MP - magic mouse/keyboard that has the lightening USB cable! - Went onto the Apple coverage website and put the serial # in but the website told me to come back later, pity as it would be good to ascertain the exact build date, is this possible?
> 
> Is it possible to use the keyboard and mouse (lightening cable) through a USB hub? - What do other mac folks here use? - Would any USB hub work? - 4 usb ports on this MP!



I use a wired Apple keyboard and mouse (posh Kensington Expert Mouse trackball actually - it's my favorite for 25+ years). The Lightning cable is usually used with your keyboard and mouse only to charge their internal battery - they connect to the computer wirelessly over BlueTooth. No cables needed! But I use wired because I don't want to deal with recharging the battery and my keyboard never moves, so...

You can absolutely use just about any USB hub you want on the Mac Pro, and only the cheapest and crappiest ones won't be able to recharge your keyboard and mouse using the Lightning cable. I like to stick to name brands like Belkin and D-Link, and they have never failed me. I've been using Belkin hubs for more than 20 years with no problems. I always use and recommend "powered" USB hubs that come with their own AC adaptor (wall wart). That way there will be no issues with devices needing too much power. Passive (non-powered) hubs only pass the power from the computer's USB ports down to the connected devices, and if you're dividing the power from one Mac Pro USB port into four connected devices it is possible you'll get a "low power" alert on the computer screen. (It is practically impossible to physically damage anything, so don't worry about that).

I currently have six USB hubs on my Mac Pro:

- Two D-Link four-port powered USB3 hubs, daisy-chained (in other words, the second hub plugged into a port on the first hub so they only use one of the Mac Pro's USB ports, giving a total of seven ports available across two hubs while using only one Mac Pro port) = connects things like USB3 hard drives, Virus TI, Linnstrument, and other data-hungry and power-hungry devices. One port from the second hub goes to a USB Extender which uses a little box on either end and a CAT5 cable connecting the two - this lets me do a long (30-foot) run across the room to my guitar/synth rack. On the far end the extender connects to yet another Belkin powered 7-port USB2 hub to which I connect all the stuff in the guitar/synth rack - Line6 Pod, Roland VG-99, Eventide H9, Dave Smith Pro-2, and another Unitor MIDI interface to deal with other synths, the EuroRack setup, etc. So that stuff in the guitar/synth rack is at the far end of two USB hubs (one USB3 and one USB2) with a USB>CAT5 cable extender in between. It sounds crazy but it all works just fine.

- Three Belkin four-port USB2 hubs (two of them daisy-chained and one running solo) = the solo hub is for computer keyboard (with the trackball plugged into the keyboard itself so it doesn't use up a port on the hub), PreSonus FaderPort, a Unitor8mk2 MIDI interface, and my main MIDI keyboard (M-Audio Keystation 88 plugged in via USB). The two daisy-chained hubs are only for dongles - three iLok2 and three e-Licenser dongles, with the last port used for connecting to the Dynaudio AIR Control or Genelec GLM system to configure my speakers from the computer.

This leaves me one empty USB port on the back of the Mac Pro in case I get a new device and want to experiment before I decide where to plug it in.

You can feel free to daisy-chain USB hubs pretty much any way you want. The only thing to be aware of is that USB2 is much slower than USB3 (and USBv1 is slower still), so if you plug a USB2 hub into the computer, anything that's "downstream" of that hub will run at USB2 speed - so don't go Computer > USB2 hub > USB3 hub or the USB3 hub will be only passing data at USB2 speed. The other way around is fine - Computer > USB3 hub > USB2 hub. Just keep in mind that a USB2 hub will choke anything that passes through it down to USB2 speeds. No biggie really, and you won't damage anything by trying out various configurations. I even have a few 20-year-old Belkin powered 7-port USBv1.1 hubs lying around and I can use them just fine, mixed in with the more modern ones, but they are really only suitable for simple stuff like iLok, keyboard, trackball, etc.

When I first got the Mac Pro cylinders I wanted some bad-ass, all-metal USB3 hubs with huge power supplies, and I found some online and bought them - only to find out that they required you to manually push the power button every time you powered up the room in order to turn them on. (Not all of them do, but the ones I bought did. I'm an idiot.) So I just went down to my local and bought some simple D-Link and Belkin hubs and they work just fine. There are, however, lots of cool hubs with 7 or more ports, individual power switches per port, etc. Check on Amazon or MonoPrice to see the crazy variety available.

If you need to extend USB cables beyond the basic 15-foot limit, look for an extender solution that uses a CAT5 cable in between two little boxes - these usually don't have their own power supply, but do require that they're plugged into a powered port - either on the back of the Mac or on a well-powered USB hub. This is similar to what I use:

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p..._1JACn-FpydavWfiMed3-T-X4yUv9K3BoCqWkQAvD_BwE


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

fraz said:


> Is it possible to use the keyboard and mouse (lightening cable) through a USB hub? - What do other mac folks here use? - Would any USB hub work? - 4 usb ports on this MP!



The current - or actually previous - Magic keyboard and mouse only use USB for charging (they work over Bluetooth). So a powered USB hub should work fine, but really you could just use a USB charger once every couple of months when they run out.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

charlieclouser said:


> If you put 800 mono VOG instances on a mix (and why wouldn't you?)



Only because I don't have a UA box. Otherwise it'd be de rigeur.

Thanks very much for the data rate explanation.


----------



## fraz

Yes that is very creative use of arranging your USB hubs - The Amazon link you showed with the ethernet > USB - this pack includes both items in the package doesn't it?

And you use the RJ-45 on your Mac Pro to go into one of those connectors?


----------



## charlieclouser

Of course, I should get one of these -

https://www.coolgear.com/product/16-port-usb-3-0-metal-hub-surge-protection-din-rail-mounting-kit

But it requires you to sort out a power supply solution.

Or this one, which is easier to rack-mount, but also requires you to sort out power, and it's only USB2. Still, would be fine for all my dongles etc.

https://www.coolgear.com/product/industrial-16-port-rack-mountable-usb-2-0-hub


----------



## charlieclouser

fraz said:


> Yes that is very creative use of arranging your USB hubs - The Amazon link you showed with the ethernet > USB - this pack includes both items in the package doesn't it?
> 
> And you use the RJ-45 on your Mac Pro to go into one of those connectors?



No, with that extender you only use the RJ-45 jacks on those little boxes to run a CAT5 cable between the two little boxes shown (both of which are included in a single purchase). Once connected like this: extender male > CAT5 cable > extender female, the whole thee-piece thing acts as a USB extension cable, with a male USB jack on one end and a female USB jack on the other.

The RJ-45 jacks on your Mac Pro are only for connecting to an Ethernet network. I don't even have anything plugged into the RJ-45 jacks on my Mac Pro - it connects to the internet via WiFi. If, however, I was using Vienna Ensemble Pro running on slave computers, I would connect to that network using those RJ-45 jacks. The reason they give you two is so that you could, for example, connect to a dedicated Vienna slave network on one port and to a separate network (for internet, file sharing, etc.) using the second port. But if you're not running Vienna slave machines, and you're connecting to the internet using WiFi, you don't even need to plug anything into the RJ-45 jacks on the back of your Mac Pro.


----------



## fraz

Yes I get the idea, I've made a note of these items for future reference. Brain-overload right now....

I got the MP for 3,100 open box (new)-for the 12 core. Still very expensive for me but for an Apple I've got a little lucky...and if these last as long as people say it'll be very reliable...


----------



## dcoscina

fraz said:


> Yes I get the idea, I've made a note of these items for future reference. Brain-overload right now....
> 
> I got the MP for 3,100 open box (new)-for the 12 core. Still very expensive for me but for an Apple I've got a little lucky...and if these last as long as people say it'll be very reliable...


I've got my sights on a used 6 core as I only have modest needs and don't have a ton of VIs I run. I mean I haven't blown up my little MB Air i7 with everything I've thrown at it so I'm sure a 6 core MP will do nicely. And it's quiet and not hot like the iMacs get.


----------



## fraz

Right OK you'll be happy with that 6 core then!-How much would you pay? - The 6 core XEON E5-1650 V2 - Is not far off the performance of the i7 5820 K-And around 2013-the 3930 K 32 nm (Sandy bridge E) 4930 K later on 22 nm but still on Intel socket LGA 2011 (Ivy Bridge) - then the 5820 k on Haswell-E - So the Mac Pro 6 core will be a good machine- If you have VEP all the better!!!

I'm going to do a backup of the OS - Mac Pro late 2013 has arrived with Sierra 10.12.3 - There is an included app called time machine - is this just for backup?

Also have Carbon Copy Cloner - Then if I've got a backup as it is now then it should be OK to rescue if I mess it up.

Also, is it possible to download the complete OS X Sierra from the Mac App Store? - So I could have a backup of this? - I'm not a hardened Mac-man yet !!!


----------



## charlieclouser

fraz said:


> I'm going to do a backup of the OS - Mac Pro late 2013 has arrived with Sierra 10.12.3 - There is an included app called time machine - is this just for backup?
> 
> Also have Carbon Copy Cloner - Then if I've got a backup as it is now then it should be OK to rescue if I mess it up.
> 
> Also, is it possible to download the complete OS X Sierra from the Mac App Store? - So I could have a backup of this? - I'm not a hardened Mac-man yet !!!



Time Machine is Apple's built-in backup utility that can take snapshots of whatever drives you want and keep them backed up - but I never use it. I manually back up all my SSDs to large capacity spinning drives every so often.

For the system drive, it is good to have Carbon Copy Cloner and use it to clone that drive to disc images on a big spinning drive, or to a single drive that you dedicate to system drive clones. When dealing with the system drive, things are a little different than other drives, and using Carbon Copy Cloner will copy all of the little invisible files that simple drag-n-dropping from the desktop won't copy. That's what I do. I make a Carbon Copy Clone of the "virgin" system drive before installing any software (in case I want to go back to the start) and also do another after I get everything set up how I want.

Yes, you can download the installer for most versions of MacOS - I do this and create bootable USB-stick flash drive installers to have around. I use a little utility to make those USB sticks bootable, the process is explained here:

https://lifehacker.com/how-to-make-a-bootable-macos-sierra-usb-flash-drive-1786853248

With a little Googling you can find the links to download the installers for most MacOS versions.


----------



## samphony

If you leave the lightning cable connected to your Apple keyboard and Magic Trackpad 2 they will work as a wired device. They switch to Bluetooth as soon as you disconnect them.


----------



## fraz

samphony said:


> If you leave the lightning cable connected to your Apple keyboard and Magic Trackpad 2 they will work as a wired device. They switch to Bluetooth as soon as you disconnect them.



Right OK - Is there any chance the battery in the keyboard would be affected by being connected all time. Had a Laptop which was always connected and it reduced the life of the battery with it not actually working, being drained and re-charged.

Did read that 9 minutes of lightening - USB cable - charging results in 9 hours use!!! - Or was it 2 minutes charging? - Either way, now I know why its called lightening!


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

samphony said:


> If you leave the lightning cable connected to your Apple keyboard and Magic Trackpad 2 they will work as a wired device. They switch to Bluetooth as soon as you disconnect them.



Why would you want to use them as wired devices? There are issues with BT on aluminum Mac Pros that you solve by replacing the internal wire antenna with an external Wi-Fi one, but BT works really well for input devices.

By the way, the mouse doesn't work as a wired device when it's connected, in fact it doesn't work at all - because the cable goes into the bottom.

(I have the rechargeable mouse and battery-powered keyboard and trackpad.)


----------



## fraz

Hi,

A little advice on Os X Sierra updates. The Mac Pro arrived with 10.12.3 - pre-installed on the machine. I've seen 10.12.6 on the App Store but have not seen 10.12.3

Are the earlier versions of Sierra 10.12 not worth having? - I'd still like to have all 10.12 versions backed up manually on external disks - Any pointers for Mac newbie!

EDIT-I've downloaded the OS X Sierra 10.12.6 and put it on a separate drive.

Having the original 10.12 or 10.12.3 downloaded may be good as it's how the computer arrived, sure the system could be cloned then the whole system is backed up which is what I'll do but I'd feel better if I had the 10.12.3

Before when I asked about 10.12 - is it worth having? I meant this from a bug point of view and new OS releases, that is all!


----------



## jcrosby

You'd want an installer in case you decide to do a clean install. Unfortunately, if you've never downloaded Sierra you won't see it in your 'purchases' tab... I.E you can't download it.

What I'd recommend doing instead is grabbing Carbon Copy Cloner and cloning your system now so it's as close to a clean install point as you can get. (Fully working for 30 days, highly encourage buying it after though... As Charlie pointed out it's way more useful as a restoration tool than Time Machine.) 

Once cloned grab the 10.12.6 combo update, (for any future clean installs) here: https://support.apple.com/kb/dl1931?locale=en_US 
Combo updates bring your machine up to date, but aren't the full installer... I.E. you can't use it to clean install an OS, only update an earlier version to a later one... (You can clone your drive again after updating. CCC will save your initial clone, and keep archives of previous clones until the disk fills up...)

You can run the combo update to update to update 10.12.6 or do it from the app store... Either's fine, and most likely there will still be security patches and other updates you'll probably want to install afterward. So whether you update using the combo or the app store check the app store again and see what it shows you...

Other things I'd recommend doing are downloading High Sierra but not installing. I'd do this ASAP as they'll be releasing 10.14 soon and once 10.13's gone, it's gone unless you've previously downloaded it... (Although I believe I saw a post where someone said they may even be nuking previous OS's? Not sure if that's true but knowing Apple it wouldn't surprise me...)

You can create a bootable OS installer using DiskMaker X, (free): http://diskmakerx.com/

And never a bad idea to have OnyX handy, (also free)... Does things like lets you repair permissions, view hidden files, clean caches etc... Really useful, and may occasionally fix caching or permissions issues I've seen where software I haven't updated suddenly stops playing nicely... (Happened to me this past week... Saved my afternoon.) grab the version specifically for your OS, (not the latest version in your case). https://www.titanium-software.fr/en/onyx.html


----------



## fraz

Before I got the Mac Pro I did have a go at doing a Hackintosh. I bought Carbon Copy Cloner so I already have it. Also bought was Mac Drive for the PC - So I'm well set up there.

I've downloaded 10.12.6 from the App Store. Also downloaded is 2018 security "Sierra" - remember the Mac Pro came with10.12.3 - Tomorrow I will do a carbon copy clone of the drive.

The disc maker x looks a bit like Mac Daddy disc creator (please comment)

Onyx X thanks for the link (more apps more confusion) but I've made a note of this and saved a folder for it!!!

Has 10.12 dis-appeared - eg no chance of downloading it?

I always get confused with combo update vs normal one - The combo is about
2GB where as the normal one is 5 GB - I've already got the bigger one!- I presume this is a self contained installer??? is this correct?

10.12.6 Combo requires 10.12 (mine is 10.12.3) but this is still OK isn't it?


----------



## fraz

OK I'm on the case...OS X 10.13.5 - App Store - apparently compatibility is 10.8 or later which is Mountain Lion....
4.8 GB size

Problem with High Sierra, resulting in a 20 MB download with the picture of the app but it's more like a link for a download / install, right now, rather than a download the whole file to store until it's needed.

Any thoughts? this is on the App store


----------



## fraz

Combi backup is best otherwise all incremental backups are needed. Got CCC to backup 10.12.3-I used a 1 TB drive via USB-Sata bridge-!-It was around 30 GB.

Titanium system cleaner was good-but not tried disk maker yet.

What I may do is upgrade to High Sierra 10.13.5 - And use CCC to clone this as well, then revert back to 10.12.3. This should be a good test to see if it all goes well.

Then it would be good to go from 10.12.3 > 10.12.6 & then CCC-then revert back to 10.12.3-If this goes well then great for external backups.

Then an installer for High Sierra 10.13 (which I could not find)-If one can be found disk maker could be used to create a bootable installer (can USB thumb drives be used for this?)-or is it best to stick to HDD's

Apple have found a good hiding place for the installers-WHY?-


----------



## fraz

Right OK, I've got this time machine working (carbon copy cloner is deleted) for some reason it wouldn't work on V5 but I've used 3.57 on another machine briefly which did work so I'm confused why this didn't work.

Time Machine has worked - good-less stress- so now I've got a copy of 10.12.6 & 10.13.5 - backed on time machine. Oddly within OSX itself-there isn't a specific reference to which OSX was backed up and when.......BUT....when starting the MAC from OFF-using COMMAND BUTTONS & R -Opening MAC utilities - all the time machine backups are there and the relevant OSX #. - Good this is progress.

I take it it's possible to insert another M.2 (Mac Pro 6.1 late 2013) does have an M.2 SSD doesn't it? - Mine is 1TB-
Could I put in another drive quite easily? - If Vaders helmet is taken off - It's easy right???

Which SSD's could I use? - Samsung??? - specifics please -- then I could load on some more OS's (earlier ones) and back on time machine.

Also is it possible to just copy the time machine disk directly onto another? - (I'll try it anyway). good news though....

https://www.google.co.uk/search?cli...13&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8#kpvalbx=1


----------



## tmhuud

Installing a new New drive in Vader’s is easy. Almost as easy as RAM. I would suggest MacSales /OWC to insure compatibility.


----------



## fraz

Hi, yes I'm glad to hear this! - (I've build a windows machine or two). - OWC, I've seen the website. Backups are going OK with time machine even though there has been a setback or two -...but progress!!!

Anyway, is it possible to use which ever M.2 SSD drive with Mac Pro? - I will contact OWC but people here may know.

Does Mac Pro use the 2280 size M.2? (looks like it's PCI-e GEN 2 @ x4)-So half the speed of PCI-e GEN 3

Samsung have some but are pricey
Western Digital have a green & blue range which are cheaper

EDIT-I can see the connector type on the m.2 for mac pro is different!-


----------



## ashtongleckman

They are really great. I have a 64GB ram, quad core. Though I deffinetely want to upgrade to more CPU, it’s been super smooth for me for as long as I’ve had it (3 years). Can’t complain.


----------



## fraz

ashtongleckman said:


> They are really great. I have a 64GB ram, quad core. Though I deffinetely want to upgrade to more CPU, it’s been super smooth for me for as long as I’ve had it (3 years). Can’t complain.



Have you used the time machine to back it all up? - I'm on with these now - and making sure they work!


----------



## fraz

Hi,

Does everyone here use time machine and nothing else?

Just thinking back last few years when I had a go at doing a Hackintosh, I got Carbon Copy Cloner 3.5.7 and it worked without issue.

Yesterday though on Verson 5 CCC it just wouldn't work

But with time machine backups working correctly why would anyone wish to use anything other than time machine?


----------



## tmhuud

I use the Time Machine over LAN. First backup takes a LONG time (depending on your drive size obviously). But I backup to an offsite location and ANOTHER drive in the studio. The offsite is in case of a fire. I use CCC . Superdupper is good. DataBackup is decent. The PC’s are all set to Autosave at 3am everyday. I generally like backing up the MAC manually as things run slower while working and backing up.


----------



## fraz

Hi, thanks

OK-I've got 2 drives with time machine backup. 10.12.6 > 10.13.5 & trying it back and forth to check double check it works.

On the 2nd drive for time machine i just copied the time machine disk to AN other disk (external) - the back ups were recognized by Apple Utilities (cmd buttons + R) but they would not revert - the screen got stuck on a black Apple screen.

I did try disk first aid which did not work.


After this I just did another time machine backup on a 2nd disk from scratch, manually doing the same as the 1st time machine disk. All checked out and worked back and forth.

So I'm set.

What I'd like to try on a 2nd mac (after doing 1 x time machine) - is to try to use the time machine disks created on a 12 core and attempt to see if they would work on a 6 core which is a different machine - Would you think there would be any problems?


----------



## fraz

Do OWC Mac sales, ever have a sale? - to get cheaper Mac accessories?


----------



## tmhuud

fraz said:


> What I'd like to try on a 2nd mac (after doing 1 x time machine) - is to try to use the time machine disks created on a 12 core and attempt to see if they would work on a 6 core which is a different machine - Would you think there would be any problems?



I do not think there should be any issues. But theres always a little black magic involved.


----------



## fraz

I've seen some adapters for Macbook/Macbook Pro 2013 that are the same kind of connector as on Mac Pro 2013 so a regular SSD M.2 can be used.

Has anyone here tried one of these? - It would mean being able to use Samsung or WD or Crucial (if needed) - Someone here may have tried already???

12+16 pin ?


----------



## fraz

tmhuud said:


> I do not think there should be any issues. But theres always a little black magic involved.



Excuse me - I'm baffled -


----------



## fraz

fraz said:


> I've seen some adapters for Macbook/Macbook Pro 2013 that are the same kind of connector as on Mac Pro 2013 so a regular SSD M.2 can be used.
> 
> Has anyone here tried one of these? - It would mean being able to use Samsung or WD or Crucial (if needed) - Someone here may have tried already???
> 
> 12+16 pin ?



Regular M.2 SSD's
Added-I've ordered an adapter or two that may work, after all it is for the MacBook. Someone else seems to think the adapter can cause CRC errors whilst some You tubers may have had some OK results.

Does anyone know if Apple sell Mac Pro owners an M.2 SSD as a spare?

Lastly the physical size of the drive, is it 2260 or 2280?


----------



## ashtongleckman

fraz said:


> Have you used the time machine to back it all up? - I'm on with these now - and making sure they work!



I haven’t done a time machine backup yet, but I need to for sure.


----------



## fraz

ashtongleckman said:


> I haven’t done a time machine backup yet, but I need to for sure.



If you do music, it would be best to do time machine backup! - I've been getting some backups straight last two days and not being that proficient at OS X made it a little harder but now they're setup (for now)


----------



## JaikumarS

charlieclouser said:


> It's 20 Gb/sec on each *pair* of ports on the Mac Pro cylinder. Each pair of ports is called a "Thunderbolt Bus" and each is roughly equivalent to a single PCIe slot, so the architecture is similar to the 3-slot arrangement on the silver Mac Pro towers. See attached picture for an explanation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have a 4k display on one TB Bus, two fully-loaded MultiDocks *and* a 2560x1440 display on the second TB Bus, and on the third TB Bus I have a UAD2-Octo Thunderbolt DSP box *and* a MOTU 112d+1248 setup. The MOTU setup is configured to provide 128 channels of audio i/o to the host, and even with that and the UAD box maxed out there have been no problems. I think for a while I had the 4k display and the 2560x1440 display on the same TB Bus by accident but everything worked fine. I basically just plug stuff in wherever I want and it always works.
> 
> The only restrictions on this setup in terms of being in danger of saturating any one of the TB Busses is if you're trying to use two 4k displays on the same TB Bus. I was told that a single 4k display can use more than 50% of a TB2 Bus depending on refresh rate, but I haven't tested this. The guy who wrote the TB drivers and firmware for the MOTU AVB audio interfaces told me that for audio use I could put my 128 i/o MOTU rig and as many UAD boxes as I wanted on the same TB2 Bus and not be in any danger of saturation. He actually kind of chuckled when I asked if I was in danger of saturating the bus when using it for audio. He was like, "not a chance".
> 
> That said, TB3 via USB-C is potentially double the bandwidth of TB2 - so 40 Gb/sec. If there is a successor to the Mac Pro cylinder it will undoubtedly use TB3 on USB-C connectors. It would be a very Apple-like decision to have nothing on the back but a row of identical connectors.



Hello Charlie,

Just wondering if this is what you actually meant.





Thank you.

- J


----------



## charlieclouser

JaikumarS said:


> Hello Charlie,
> 
> Just wondering if this is what you actually meant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> - J



Yes, that's basically how I've got everything hooked up right now. Although I think that for a while I had the Thunderbolt display, which is only 2560x1440 resolution, on Port 3 / Thunderbolt Bus 1 alongside the 4k display and it still worked. But basically your diagram is correct.


----------



## JaikumarS

charlieclouser said:


> Yes, that's basically how I've got everything hooked up right now. Although I think that for a while I had the Thunderbolt display, which is only 2560x1440 resolution, on Port 3 / Thunderbolt Bus 1 alongside the 4k display and it still worked. But basically your diagram is correct.


Thank you


----------



## fraz

It was most useful to have a picture of the Apple thunderbolt ports and an explanation. I've saved image as JPEG / backed up for future reference! - Was this from the Apple website?


----------



## jcrosby

fraz said:


> Hi,
> 
> Does everyone here use time machine and nothing else?
> 
> Just thinking back last few years when I had a go at doing a Hackintosh, I got Carbon Copy Cloner 3.5.7 and it worked without issue.
> 
> Yesterday though on Verson 5 CCC it just wouldn't work
> 
> But with time machine backups working correctly why would anyone wish to use anything other than time machine?



I don't because you couldn't clone or move data from a TM disk for the longest time. I also find it to be a HUGE PITA if I needed to restore, or clean install and migrate. CCC I find fuss-free, but I'm probably just an old grump like that


----------



## fraz

jcrosby said:


> I don't because you couldn't clone or move data from a TM disk for the longest time. I also find it to be a HUGE PITA if I needed to restore, or clean install and migrate. CCC I find fuss-free, but I'm probably just an old grump like that



OK I get your point. I've got some time machine backups as a start point which I'm sure are worth keeping.

I've got CCC V5 and I just couldn't get it to work - then I realized I used 3.5.7 on a Hackintosh (experiment) but CCC 3.5.7 just worked so I'm thinking CCC V5 must have had an error/bug in it in the version I used.

I'll probably try again on CCC and do some more backups on a different disk - The Mac Pro I've got was Sierra 10.12.6 and maybe CCC V5 is High Sierra ??? - I'll find out what the issue is and later versions may just work.


----------



## JaikumarS

charlieclouser said:


> I use a wired Apple keyboard and mouse (posh Kensington Expert Mouse trackball actually - it's my favorite for 25+ years). The Lightning cable is usually used with your keyboard and mouse only to charge their internal battery - they connect to the computer wirelessly over BlueTooth. No cables needed! But I use wired because I don't want to deal with recharging the battery and my keyboard never moves, so...
> 
> You can absolutely use just about any USB hub you want on the Mac Pro, and only the cheapest and crappiest ones won't be able to recharge your keyboard and mouse using the Lightning cable. I like to stick to name brands like Belkin and D-Link, and they have never failed me. I've been using Belkin hubs for more than 20 years with no problems. I always use and recommend "powered" USB hubs that come with their own AC adaptor (wall wart). That way there will be no issues with devices needing too much power. Passive (non-powered) hubs only pass the power from the computer's USB ports down to the connected devices, and if you're dividing the power from one Mac Pro USB port into four connected devices it is possible you'll get a "low power" alert on the computer screen. (It is practically impossible to physically damage anything, so don't worry about that).
> 
> I currently have six USB hubs on my Mac Pro:
> 
> - Two D-Link four-port powered USB3 hubs, daisy-chained (in other words, the second hub plugged into a port on the first hub so they only use one of the Mac Pro's USB ports, giving a total of seven ports available across two hubs while using only one Mac Pro port) = connects things like USB3 hard drives, Virus TI, Linnstrument, and other data-hungry and power-hungry devices. One port from the second hub goes to a USB Extender which uses a little box on either end and a CAT5 cable connecting the two - this lets me do a long (30-foot) run across the room to my guitar/synth rack. On the far end the extender connects to yet another Belkin powered 7-port USB2 hub to which I connect all the stuff in the guitar/synth rack - Line6 Pod, Roland VG-99, Eventide H9, Dave Smith Pro-2, and another Unitor MIDI interface to deal with other synths, the EuroRack setup, etc. So that stuff in the guitar/synth rack is at the far end of two USB hubs (one USB3 and one USB2) with a USB>CAT5 cable extender in between. It sounds crazy but it all works just fine.
> 
> - Three Belkin four-port USB2 hubs (two of them daisy-chained and one running solo) = the solo hub is for computer keyboard (with the trackball plugged into the keyboard itself so it doesn't use up a port on the hub), PreSonus FaderPort, a Unitor8mk2 MIDI interface, and my main MIDI keyboard (M-Audio Keystation 88 plugged in via USB). The two daisy-chained hubs are only for dongles - three iLok2 and three e-Licenser dongles, with the last port used for connecting to the Dynaudio AIR Control or Genelec GLM system to configure my speakers from the computer.
> 
> This leaves me one empty USB port on the back of the Mac Pro in case I get a new device and want to experiment before I decide where to plug it in.
> 
> You can feel free to daisy-chain USB hubs pretty much any way you want. The only thing to be aware of is that USB2 is much slower than USB3 (and USBv1 is slower still), so if you plug a USB2 hub into the computer, anything that's "downstream" of that hub will run at USB2 speed - so don't go Computer > USB2 hub > USB3 hub or the USB3 hub will be only passing data at USB2 speed. The other way around is fine - Computer > USB3 hub > USB2 hub. Just keep in mind that a USB2 hub will choke anything that passes through it down to USB2 speeds. No biggie really, and you won't damage anything by trying out various configurations. I even have a few 20-year-old Belkin powered 7-port USBv1.1 hubs lying around and I can use them just fine, mixed in with the more modern ones, but they are really only suitable for simple stuff like iLok, keyboard, trackball, etc.
> 
> When I first got the Mac Pro cylinders I wanted some bad-ass, all-metal USB3 hubs with huge power supplies, and I found some online and bought them - only to find out that they required you to manually push the power button every time you powered up the room in order to turn them on. (Not all of them do, but the ones I bought did. I'm an idiot.) So I just went down to my local and bought some simple D-Link and Belkin hubs and they work just fine. There are, however, lots of cool hubs with 7 or more ports, individual power switches per port, etc. Check on Amazon or MonoPrice to see the crazy variety available.
> 
> If you need to extend USB cables beyond the basic 15-foot limit, look for an extender solution that uses a CAT5 cable in between two little boxes - these usually don't have their own power supply, but do require that they're plugged into a powered port - either on the back of the Mac or on a well-powered USB hub. This is similar to what I use:
> 
> https://www.monoprice.com/product?p..._1JACn-FpydavWfiMed3-T-X4yUv9K3BoCqWkQAvD_BwE



Hi Charlie,

I'm planning to stream samples from the multidock wondering if I could use Thunderbolt to Gigabit Ethernet Adapter with good ethernet cable and stream sample from Blackmagic multidock, as I would like to place the multidock in separate racks.

So wondering if this could be acheived.

Thank you.

-JK


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## charlieclouser

JaikumarS said:


> Hi Charlie,
> 
> I'm planning to stream samples from the multidock wondering if I could use Thunderbolt to Gigabit Ethernet Adapter with good ethernet cable and stream sample from Blackmagic multidock, as I would like to place the multidock in separate racks.
> 
> So wondering if this could be acheived.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> -JK



Well, that's not what the TB > Ethernet adaptor is for - it's for connecting a computer which does not have built-in Ethernet ports to a wired network. Like if you have a Macbook Pro that only has USB-C connectors but you want to connect to a wired Ethernet network instead of / in addition to WiFi.

It's not like the "USB > CAT5 > USB" extender solution that I may have mentioned earlier in this thread - at least, I don't *think* it can be used like that. Maybe it can work like that, but.... I highly doubt it.

And that adaptor certainly can *not* be used to plug the MultiDock into the Ethernet ports on the Mac Pro. Definitely not.

In short, the MultiDock must be connected to a Thunderbolt port on the Mac - if it's a newer Macbook or iMac that only has USB-C / Thunderbolt 3 connections, use the Thunderbolt 2 > USB-C adaptor (shown here):

https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MMEL2AM/A/thunderbolt-3-usb-c-to-thunderbolt-2-adapter?afid=p238|sEc33DURg-dc_mtid_1870765e38482_pcrid_246386725857_&cid=aos-us-kwgo-pla-btb--slid--product-MMEL2AM/A

...and a normal TB2 > TB2 cable.

It would be better to get a TB cable of the correct length. They can be had up to 3 meters for not much money, and if you need to go further you can get Corning Optical cables up to 100 meters.

But in any case, the MultiDock is absolutely silent, has no moving parts, and generates no heat, so why would it need to be mounted more than 3 meters away from the computer? The Mac Pro cylinder is silent as well. I have mine mounted behind my displays, about five feet from my head and I've never heard so much as a whisper from them.


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## JaikumarS

charlieclouser said:


> Well, that's not what the TB > Ethernet adaptor is for - it's for connecting a computer which does not have built-in Ethernet ports to a wired network. Like if you have a Macbook Pro that only has USB-C connectors but you want to connect to a wired Ethernet network instead of / in addition to WiFi.
> 
> It's not like the "USB > CAT5 > USB" extender solution that I may have mentioned earlier in this thread - at least, I don't *think* it can be used like that. Maybe it can work like that, but.... I highly doubt it.
> 
> And that adaptor certainly can *not* be used to plug the MultiDock into the Ethernet ports on the Mac Pro. Definitely not.
> 
> In short, the MultiDock must be connected to a Thunderbolt port on the Mac - if it's a newer Macbook or iMac that only has USB-C / Thunderbolt 3 connections, use the Thunderbolt 2 > USB-C adaptor (shown here):
> 
> https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MMEL2AM/A/thunderbolt-3-usb-c-to-thunderbolt-2-adapter?afid=p238|sEc33DURg-dc_mtid_1870765e38482_pcrid_246386725857_&cid=aos-us-kwgo-pla-btb--slid--product-MMEL2AM/A
> 
> ...and a normal TB2 > TB2 cable.
> 
> It would be better to get a TB cable of the correct length. They can be had up to 3 meters for not much money, and if you need to go further you can get Corning Optical cables up to 100 meters.
> 
> But in any case, the MultiDock is absolutely silent, has no moving parts, and generates no heat, so why would it need to be mounted more than 3 meters away from the computer? The Mac Pro cylinder is silent as well. I have mine mounted behind my displays, about five feet from my head and I've never heard so much as a whisper from them.



Thank you Charlie for taking time and writing back.


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## danbo

charlieclouser said:


> if you need to go further you can get Corning Optical cables up to 100 meters.



I wouldn't recommend that, I've got two of the 10m ones that died a few years out of warranty, and lots of others have experienced the same thing according to the reviews.

Otherwise the trash can is silent and it's right above my RED interface, a few feet from my ears. I have two Pegasus R2's for data, one with spinners and the other with 4x500GB drives striped which gets 1GB/s easy hardware RAID. They're great but unfortunately no longer available.

Blackmagic is popular, but I object to the price, size and fact that they reportably are sensitive to SSD thickness. I have a OWC 4X SSD enclosure which is silent (after a fan swap) and has lower capacity drives in it, there are equivalents on eBay. Blackmagic is good if you need to swap drives a lot.


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## charlieclouser

danbo said:


> I wouldn't recommend that, I've got two of the 10m ones that died a few years out of warranty, and lots of others have experienced the same thing according to the reviews.
> 
> Otherwise the trash can is silent and it's right above my RED interface, a few feet from my ears. I have two Pegasus R2's for data, one with spinners and the other with 4x500GB drives striped which gets 1GB/s easy hardware RAID. They're great but unfortunately no longer available.
> 
> Blackmagic is popular, but I object to the price, size and fact that they reportably are sensitive to SSD thickness. I have a OWC 4X SSD enclosure which is silent (after a fan swap) and has lower capacity drives in it, there are equivalents on eBay. Blackmagic is good if you need to swap drives a lot.



Yeah, I don't use the Corning glass cables either - I think the Mac Pro cylinder is plenty quiet for use right in the control room for sure. 

The BlackMagic docks are set up to accommodate the thicker (9.5 mm) SSD mechanisms if needed, even though most these days are 7mm. The 7mm drives fit just fine in the dock although there is a little extra space at the top and bottom (about 1.25 mm each side) and so they can rattle around if you are hauling the units around on tour. At one point I did find a company that made little spacers that stick on to 7mm SSDs with double-sided adhesive to bring them up to 9.5mm size, but since my setup is not taken on the road I didn't need these spacers. I've been using two of the BlackMagic docks for a few years now and have not had one single issue of any kind with them - I love 'em.


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## dcoscina

Thanks to all for this thread. I was in the fence about going from a MP 3,1 to either an iMac quad i7 or MP 6,1 six core and I decided on the latter. I bought it base from Apple and upgraded the ram to 64gb soon after. It’s super quiet and has plenty of power. My Thinderbay 4 isn’t quite as quiet so I had to order a longer TB cable to move it further away from the composing area however


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## redlester

So, the Apple "Event" has passed with nothing new on the Desktop front, despite the rumours about the Mac Mini.

Assume we are looking at March at the earliest as the next potential date for announcement of any "Pro" models? Do they only ever announce at these events or have there been interim, less trumpeted releases in the past?


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