# Relative Pitch Mastery



## ka00 (Feb 1, 2019)

How many people who don’t have perfect pitch, have managed as adults, to develop near-flawless relative pitch?

I started training with an iPhone app called Politonus and want to know if this is a waste of time or not? I’m getting pretty good with identifying C maj scale notes and intervals (the white keys) after hearing a C note played as reference. 

Chromatic note and interval identification is much trickier.

Is there light at the end of the tunnel?

Thanks


----------



## JT (Feb 1, 2019)

I can't speak for anyone else, but it just came with time. I played trumpet since I was a kid.
When I hear a pitch, my fingers press down as if I'm playing the horn. If I press the wrong fingers down, it doesn't feel right, so I know that's not the correct pitch. And if I need a reference pitch, I can always hear and sing the concert Bb that wind instruments tune to. That pitch is ingrained in me.

By the time I was in my late 20's, I was able to listen to a song and transcribe it (melody & chords) without being at a piano. It just takes time.


----------



## d.healey (Feb 1, 2019)

Just transcribe stuff, you'll get better with all kinds of things, including relative pitch. Mine's not perfect but I can pick out melodies and harmonies very quickly.


----------



## bachader (Feb 1, 2019)

I agree you can improve it through exercise. There was a guy named David Lucas Burge who claims that you can develop even the perfect pitch. He was selling his cassette tapes. I haven't heard about it since then.


----------



## Divico (Feb 1, 2019)

bachader said:


> I agree you can improve it through exercise. There was a guy named David Lucas Burge who claims that you can develop even the perfect pitch. He was selling his cassette tapes. I haven't heard about it since then.


Unfortunately there is more or less common sense now that this is not possible :(


----------



## d.healey (Feb 1, 2019)

bachader said:


> There was a guy named David Lucas Burge who claims that you can develop even the perfect pitch.


Bullshit


> He was selling his cassette tapes. I haven't heard about it since then.


What's a cassette tape...


----------



## stan-k (Feb 1, 2019)

You can always develop relative pitch. Keep practicing. There are some iPhone apps out there which are helpful, but even a simple practice on the piano works if you have one: press a key and sing the interval you are practicing - up and (especially) down, as down is harder for most people. My point is, keep practicing. Relative pitch is all about practice.

As for the absolute pitch, Rick Beato has a nice video about it: 

Basically, if you don't have it, you ain't gonna get it. No point feeling bad about it.

Rick also has some videos on exercises for developing relative pitch, check out his channel, it's a treasure trove.


----------



## bachader (Feb 1, 2019)

Apparently, they are still on sale but on CDs


----------



## d.healey (Feb 1, 2019)

bachader said:


> Apparently, they are still on sale but on CDs


What's a CD...


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna (Feb 1, 2019)

ka00 said:


> How many people who don’t have perfect pitch, have managed as adults, to develop near-flawless relative pitch?
> 
> I started training with an iPhone app called Politonus and want to know if this is a waste of time or not? I’m getting pretty good with identifying C maj scale notes and intervals (the white keys) after hearing a C note played as reference.
> 
> ...


Of course you can - it's a skill like any other. 

Scoreclub have a great class for this.


----------



## Craig Duke (Feb 1, 2019)

2013: "Harvard University researchers have found some success teaching absolute pitch using a drug in combination with training."

>> What musician hasn't?

"Research has shown that Valproate (a HDAC inhibitor) enable adult mice to establish perceptual preferences that are otherwise impossible to acquire after youth."

>> I've never been in favor of making mice any smarter than they already are.

"In humans, we found that adult men who took Valproate learned to identify pitch significantly better than those taking placebo"

>> I wonder how they did compare to the mice?

"Valproate - A class of drug used to reduce seizures, bi-polar disorder and migraine headaches. Common side effects include nausea, vomiting, sleepiness, and a dry mouth."

>> Not unlike a good night on the town.

"Serious side effects can include liver problems, pancreatitis and an increased suicide risk."

>> Not unlike a bad night on the town.

"It is unclear exactly how Valproate works"
>> 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3848041/


----------



## dflood (Feb 1, 2019)

Craig Duke said:


> 2013: "Harvard University researchers have found some success teaching absolute pitch using a drug in combination with training."
> 
> >> What musician hasn't?
> 
> ...


Perfect pitch is a very weird side effect.


----------



## Craig Duke (Feb 2, 2019)

dflood said:


> Perfect pitch is a very weird side effect.


The byproduct is not PP but rather that the drug temporarily returns some neural plasticity to the brain that allows the subject to *learn *to identify pitches more accurately and consistently. A partial return to what they call a "critical period" that allows the brain to learn in ways it hasn't since childhood. The critical period for acquiring PP ends before 9 years. For language it's about 14. After that period, the brain changes, clearing out billions of unused neurons and what-have-you and becomes more rigid and less capable of learning that skill. Every five year old is a language learning genius. She can learn Mandarin without even trying. She only needs to be in an environment where people are speaking the language. The non-conscious parts of her brain do the rest. A 45 year old Professor Einstein, with Nobel Prize in hand, would be no match as none of us would be (assuming everyone here is older than 5 -- sometimes I wonder  )

I seriously doubt adults can acquire genuine PP. That said, even if you have PP you still want to learn relative pitch. You want to be able to "feel" the sound of intervals. An only-PPer knows he is hearing a C and a G and figures out the interval knowing G is a perfect fifth above the C. An accomplished RPer just hears the fact that it is a perfect fifth. Its the same "feeling" you would get if I flashed you a picture of your mother's face for a half second. You just know who it is without additional thought.

A music theory Prof of mine, so many years ago, used to play ear training exercises transposed. He said it was so the PP students couldn't cheat and also to make sure they learned RP. I also remember him saying he saw no correlation between PPers being better at learning RP.


----------



## Alex Fraser (Feb 2, 2019)

Also, perfect pitch isn’t forever. I’ve had it since childhood, but I’m slowly losing it with age. Relative is for life though, I’d think.


----------



## mikeh-375 (Feb 2, 2019)

Alex Fraser said:


> Also, perfect pitch isn’t forever. I’ve had it since childhood, but I’m slowly loosing it with age. Relative is for life though, I’d think.


Alex,
How did you cope with reading transposing scores? I ask because at my alma mater I knew a girl with pp who had a terrible time relating the printed page to the audio.


----------



## Maximvs (Feb 2, 2019)

d.healey said:


> Bullshit
> 
> What's a cassette tape...


Many years ago I did the complete 'Perfect pitch' course over probably a full year... It didn't work for me as advertised despite all the dedication and hours I put in... I developed a pretty good 'relative pitch' by transcribing and using great apps like Ars Nova Practica Musica and EarMaster... My two cents, Max T.


----------



## Alex Fraser (Feb 2, 2019)

mikeh-375 said:


> Alex,
> How did you cope with reading transposing scores? I ask because at my alma mater I knew a girl with pp who had a terrible time relating the printed page to the audio.


My site reading has always been questionable as I rely too much on my ears.
Perhaps similar - I often have issues playing keys when the keybed has been transposed.


----------

