# "WTH" Orchestral (seeking feedback)



## ka00 (Jul 16, 2019)

Greetings,

UPDATE: Track was updated Thurs July 18.

Here's a revised version of an orchestral track I posted last week that I'm still hoping to get some feedback on. Any thoughts on composition, orchestration or mix?

You can be totally, brutally honest. I've learned a lot from this type of vi-c beat down in the past and I'm always grateful for it.

Thanks for listening!


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## Hywel (Jul 16, 2019)

Nice production, I liked some of the unusual combinations of sounds you created and the environments they spark in the minds eye. The style of music isn’t to my taste so I can only comment from a listener perspective. It lost me somewhere in the middle and my mind drifted but the sudden percussion interjections brought me to my senses again. 
Disclaimer - I’m a musical nobody!


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## ka00 (Jul 16, 2019)

Hywel said:


> Nice production, I liked some of the unusual combinations of sounds you created and the environments they spark in the minds eye. The style of music isn’t to my taste so I can only comment from a listener perspective. It lost me somewhere in the middle and my mind drifted but the sudden percussion interjections brought me to my senses again.
> Disclaimer - I’m a musical nobody!



Thanks, Hywel! Glad to hear your feedback. I should probably work on the overall structure a bit more. I’ve lost some perspective on the track and how a fresh listener experiences it, so will think about how to improve its stickiness in the middle.


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## jbuhler (Jul 16, 2019)

I think it works nicely moment to moment, though the overall sense is a bit amorphous. I'm not saying that is negative thing.

Here are some general impressions. The opening was mysterious and evocative (though the choir seemed to be distorting a bit for me, which may be soundcloud or my own particular set up). I might try dropping the level of the piano just a bit when it enters as well and maybe adding more reverb to make it sound a bit more distant, as I'm wanting a bit more veiled sound. The oboe (or English horn) entrance at 2:38 was also bit too forward for me, especially on the initial notes. The drums at 3:05 were also bit too much, the later drums seemed good, so it was only this onset. Except for the choir, these comments are a response to moments that seemed to go against the idea of the piece as I was hearing it, these impressions of a more sudden change than what I was expecting from what the piece had been suggesting to me.

As I mentioned the overall structure did seem a bit amorphous—I sort of felt like we drifted from here to there rather than moving in a purposeful manner, and there is not a strong hook. But that also seems to me to be part of what you were going for—this kind of uncertainty and drift—and also I think why I singled out the piano, the oboe/EH, and the drums, because they seem to create more of a formal articulation than the piece wants. One thing you could try is having the clouds of uncertainty part at the arrival point and give a much more articulated form of the material you are working with. As it is, it feels like it only sort of emerges, like the sky brightening briefly for a thinner portion of clouds. So if there was more consequence to the drums at 3:06, for instance, their sharper initial articulation might make more sense there.

I hope this helps.


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## ka00 (Jul 16, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> I think it works nicely moment to moment, though the overall sense is a bit amorphous. I'm not saying that is negative thing.
> 
> Here are some general impressions. The opening was mysterious and evocative (though the choir seemed to be distorting a bit for me, which may be soundcloud or my own particular set up). I might try dropping the level of the piano just a bit when it enters as well and maybe adding more reverb to make it sound a bit more distant, as I'm wanting a bit more veiled sound. The oboe (or English horn) entrance at 2:38 was also bit too forward for me, especially on the initial notes. The drums at 3:05 were also bit too much, the later drums seemed good, so it was only this onset. Except for the choir, these comments are a response to moments that seemed to go against the idea of the piece as I was hearing it, these impressions of a more sudden change than what I was expecting from what the piece had been suggesting to me.
> 
> ...



@jbuhler thank you so much for the fabulous feedback! Exactly the kind of critique I love hearing. I will get cracking on a revised version! Thanks again.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Jul 17, 2019)

I was coming back to comment my thoughts but jbuhler pretty much said everything I was going to say (and more).
Once again - your mood is fabulous but as mentioned above, slightly lacking in any sort of hook.


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## muk (Jul 17, 2019)

Very cool track. Your production is mostly fabulous (only few rare rough edges, in the strings and the oboe mainly). Wide and roomy, very nice. Mind sharing which libraries you used?

Musically, the track is very evocative. I think that it would work very well to picture. Without picture, however, I am missing a structure that I could follow. I concur with @jbuhlers comment.


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## ka00 (Jul 17, 2019)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> I was coming back to comment my thoughts but jbuhler pretty much said everything I was going to say (and more).
> Once again - your mood is fabulous but as mentioned above, slightly lacking in any sort of hook.



Thanks, Simon! I'm glad there is consensus around @jbuhler's well-expressed critiques. It's so much easier to improve things when everyone has the same issues with the song.



muk said:


> Very cool track. Your production is mostly fabulous (only few rare rough edges, in the strings and the oboe mainly). Wide and roomy, very nice. Mind sharing which libraries you used?
> 
> Musically, the track is very evocative. I think that it would work very well to picture. Without picture, however, I am missing a structure that I could follow. I concur with @jbuhlers comment.



Thanks, Muk! Appreciate it! I will definitely post a full and detailed list of VI's along with a revised version of the track this week. The two main libraries though are CSS and CSB.

Thanks again, everyone, for your thoughts!


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## ka00 (Jul 20, 2019)

And here's a list of plugins I used:

Reverbs:
Lexicon PCM
EW Spaces
Eventide Blackhole
Echoboy

EQ, compression, limiting:
Fabfilter Pro MB, Q3, C2, L2, Saturn
Zynaptic Intensity
Ozone 8


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## ka00 (Jul 21, 2019)

I’m trying to identify the main issue that makes this song sound not as cohesive as it could or should be.

I’m thinking that most of the song (0:00 - 3:24) feels like it belongs to one song and that the ending (3:24 - 4:21) feels like it belongs to a different song that doesn’t exactly flow from what came before.

Does that assessment sort of make sense?

Thanks!


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## jbuhler (Jul 21, 2019)

The new version seems to have shifted the focus and its form is clearer. But, for me, the clarity came at the expense of the idea. Though the material is now somewhat more sharply defined, I don't find it as evocative, and the of vague but affective play of emergence of the previous version is lost to the formal delineation you have imposed on it, which now seems more traditional in its developmental presentation. I think one factor is that the material is not arresting enough for the form you are trying to give it. This is not meant as a knock on your material, which I think is good for what the previous version was trying to do. It's just that I think you need to come at it through the backdoor as was your instinct in the previous version rather than coming at it head-on, since the material doesn't seem to want to do that.

These are of course just my impressions, and I may be missing what you are trying to accomplish with the piece.


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## pfmusic (Jul 21, 2019)

ka00 said:


> Greetings,
> 
> UPDATE: Track was updated Thurs July 18.
> 
> ...




Really good track, liked this one. Reminds me of Thomas Newman's The Shawshank Redemption score which I love.

Only recommendation I have is to work on the EQ on the strings, the high pitched strings stick out a little. Work on a fine balance with bass, mids and highs here on the mix and it'll be brilliant.

Great track, well done!


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## ka00 (Jul 22, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> The new version seems to have shifted the focus and its form is clearer. But, for me, the clarity came at the expense of the idea. Though the material is now somewhat more sharply defined, I don't find it as evocative, and the of vague but affective play of emergence of the previous version is lost to the formal delineation you have imposed on it, which now seems more traditional in its developmental presentation. I think one factor is that the material is not arresting enough for the form you are trying to give it. This is not meant as a knock on your material, which I think is good for what the previous version was trying to do. It's just that I think you need to come at it through the backdoor as was your instinct in the previous version rather than coming at it head-on, since the material doesn't seem to want to do that.
> 
> These are of course just my impressions, and I may be missing what you are trying to accomplish with the piece.



Thank you, jBuhler! I’m going to let this attempt cool a bit to regain some perspective, study other music, and then take another crack at this. I appreciate you articulating things that are hard to convey over text. I think I get it, but of course it’s not an exact science and might take some time to sink in.

I also got some helpful comments/critiques from Doug Gibson over on Redbanned, from which I surmised the ending the track delivers doesn’t exactly stem from what the material sets up. So addressing that’ll be part of my next attempt.



pfmusic said:


> Really good track, liked this one. Reminds me of Thomas Newman's The Shawshank Redemption score which I love.
> 
> Only recommendation I have is to work on the EQ on the strings, the high pitched strings stick out a little. Work on a fine balance with bass, mids and highs here on the mix and it'll be brilliant.
> 
> Great track, well done!



Shawshank is my favourite soundtrack! Thank you for your feedback, it’s nice to hear. I will back off the high end on the high string notes for sure. Thanks for noting that!


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## Quasar (Jul 22, 2019)

I don't have any feedback for you. I just think it's effing great, I really enjoyed listening to it, and it brought me to a fairly intense reflective state of awareness, which is one of the things that music I like does.


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## ka00 (Jul 23, 2019)

Quasar said:


> I don't have any feedback for you. I just think it's effing great, I really enjoyed listening to it, and it brought me to a fairly intense reflective state of awareness, which is one of the things that music I like does.



Thanks so much, Quasar! That’s awesome to hear. I’m glad it had that effect.

Cheers


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## dannymc (Jul 23, 2019)

you had nothing to tremble about this is really good work to my ears. had a kinda Thomas Newman feel to it in places which i love. thanks for posting.

Danny


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## ka00 (Jul 23, 2019)

dannymc said:


> you had nothing to tremble about this is really good work to my ears. had a kinda Thomas Newman feel to it in places which i love. thanks for posting.
> 
> Danny



Haha, thanks a lot, Danny! That’s very encouraging to hear. I appreciate it.


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## Dave Connor (Jul 23, 2019)

Very nice and sure footed. Really enjoyed it.


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## LamaRose (Jul 23, 2019)

Not many composers who can string together a myriad of musical concepts and make it work... you _never_ cease to impress... it's like an aural journey along a gentle winding path. I can hear this on the big screen and also in a nature documentary. Your orchestration aesthetic is top notch as well... both modern and classical. If this isn't your day job, it should be. 

PS That little phrase between 1:15 to 1:40 would make for an interesting theme to elaborate on.


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## ka00 (Jul 24, 2019)

Dave Connor said:


> Very nice and sure footed. Really enjoyed it.



Thank you, Dave! That’s great to hear! Thanks for listening and for the reply.



LamaRose said:


> Not many composers who can string together a myriad of musical concepts and make it work... you _never_ cease to impress... it's like an aural journey along a gentle winding path. I can hear this on the big screen and also in a nature documentary. Your orchestration aesthetic is top notch as well... both modern and classical. If this isn't your day job, it should be.
> 
> PS That little phrase between 1:15 to 1:40 would make for an interesting theme to elaborate on.



What a wonderful reply. Thank you, LamaRose! It’s very encouraging to hear that kind of feedback.

I will likely still tinker with the structure of this track down the road, but I’m glad to hear it’s currently connecting with some listeners.

Thanks again to all who listened and gave a like or feedback (good or bad)!


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## Land of Missing Parts (Oct 8, 2019)

ka00 said:


> Greetings,
> 
> UPDATE: Track was updated Thurs July 18.
> 
> ...



Your song is totally on the same wavelength as "Song of the Soul".  Very nicely done.


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## ka00 (Oct 8, 2019)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Your song is totally on the same wavelength as "Song of the Soul".  Very nicely done.



Thanks so much, @Land of Missing Parts! That's very encouraging to hear!


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