# Production Grand - best piano sample library in my opinion.



## justintonation (Oct 28, 2013)

Hi all,

Long time "lurker" and just joined this forum to make my first post and share my experience with a very special piano.

I've been searching for many years for a piano that will approach a real piano, to no avail.
Own or have owned or demo'd most piano's out there including Galaxy Vintage D, The Giant, Ivory II, many Sampletekk pianos, Pianoteq D4, Imperfect Samples pianos, Piano in Blue, Alicia's Keys, etc etc. And ended up literally in part hating all of them 
They are all either too limiting to me, pushing the sound very much in one direction where the piano will sound somewhat good but too bad for serious use in any other direction (and I don't want to be pushed in a direction by a piano, the piano should follow my direction!), or if the piano has a bigger range of playability / sound like Pianoteq then the sound is all bad (no the Pianoteq timbre is not up to standard for me).

But now I think I've found the piano that is finally "good enough" for me! 
Production Voices - Production Grand!
Just got the "LE" version (16bit 44.1khz) and this is the real deal.
It has 8 microphone perspectives, from hammer, inside, outside, room, and even a pressure zone mic under the piano, that are phase accurate and can be mixed.
Further the piano was sampled very dry in a heavily acoustically treated pro studio (looked it up, it's this one: http://www.phaseonestudios.com/index.php?page=A and judging from the pics on productionvoices.com where they're sampling the piano they put it in the "dry" part of the studio not the live room)
And it's a Yamaha DC7II (disclavier C7) apparently so they sampled it in an automated way (translates to very even response).
What this all means is that this is a piano that can give an enormous range of sounds with a sound quality that is in my opinion completely unmatched.

I'm still getting to know the piano but I feel for the first time that I'm making things in the direction of real piano recordings.
Here a quick demo. Simply grabbed a MIDI of the internet and played it back with the Production Grand and put a good reverb on it (no EQ or other things done):
https://soundcloud.com/justintonation/p ... -demo-faur
Now I think I could get it slightly better by EQ-ing a little and modifying the MIDI velocities a little to match the piano better. But it's already so good!
Listen to demos of other piano libraries and in comparison they lack the natural tone of a real piano and don't have the quality.
The Production Grand is quite a step up in my opinion in the sound department.

So I thought this is worth sharing! 
Btw I'm not affiliated in any way with Production Voices. Simply a huge fan.
But I see that the Production Grand has been out for more than half a year already and is getting so little attention that I myself only found out about it a few weeks ago.
That's not right in my opinion. This piano deserves to be famous. And the Le version is dirt cheap on top of this (only $150).
One thing though that may have worked against it (besides apparent lack of marketing). Since the piano is recorded so dry you really need to add a good reverb to bring out its variety of tones in my opinion. And there's no reverb included with the piano.
A heavily treated studio will absorb the middle and bass frequency resonances and the dry piano has very little "body" or resonant tone "beauty" to my ears, you need to re-introduce this with reverb just like a real piano will behave in a real room/hall. But luckily this is easily done and the dry sound "fits" in reverbs perfectly (I use Altiverb myself).

Hope my post will help to give this piano more exposure! 


(Edit: Made more versions scattered around this thread. Here's the one that does the Production Grand most justice in my opinion: https://soundcloud.com/justintonation/p ... emo-modern )


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 28, 2013)

Lovely! Not sure however that with that same MIDI file I cannot render it to sound quite similarly with some other pianos I have.

But of course I have not played it.


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## justintonation (Oct 28, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Oct 28 said:


> Lovely! Not sure however that with that same MIDI file I cannot render it to sound quite similarly with some other pianos I have.
> 
> But of course I have not played it.



Thank you! 

Here's the MIDI:
http://kunstderfuge.com/-/midi.asp?file ... olle_26_(c)oguri.mid
Feel free to try. I can't get this quality and natural tone with other pianos myself.
And I don't consider this MIDI optimal for the Production Grand either, some other pianos seem a bit better suited velocity wise for playing the MIDI files of Oguri.


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 28, 2013)

It requires subscription and payment?


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## justintonation (Oct 28, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Oct 28 said:


> It requires subscription and payment?



No you can download 4 MIDI files for free every day or something like that.
Haven't subscribed myself. (though I may at some point, it's $20 for lifetime full access I think, not a very commercial site therefore and has the best midi files I could find)


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## justintonation (Oct 28, 2013)

Jay, just noticed you're with Quantum Leap 
Then you should really get the Oguri MIDI files, I find they match Vintage D and The Giant extremely well.
He played some really good Chopin as well. I'll send you the files I have by him by email (though I don't have nearly all of his files, but it's quicker than downloading 4 day  )


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## justintonation (Oct 28, 2013)

Ah and just noticed I'm mixing up Oguri and Lubetsky..
The Chopin I was referring to is played by Lubetsky, available from the same website, I'll include those in the email as well.


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## pavolbrezina (Oct 28, 2013)

This is very flat sounding piano with huge resource comsumption. IMHO not even comaprable to Ivory concert D. And also Yamaha C7 is last choice to perform calssical pieces of music in real world. Not suitable at all. This is why you see Steinway in 99 percent of professional classic productions. C7 is good for pop music.

Just my opinion


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## justintonation (Oct 28, 2013)

pavolbrezina @ Mon Oct 28 said:


> This is very flat sounding piano with huge resource comsumption. IMHO not even comaprable to Ivory concert D. And also Yamaha C7 is last choice to perform calssical pieces of music in real world. Not suitable at all. This is why you see Steinway in 99 percent of professional classic productions. C7 is good for pop music.
> 
> Just my opinion



Yes flat indeed as in "neutral". That's a good thing in my opinion. It allows the sound to be shaped and taken in more directions.

Resource consumption is not that important for me, sound comes first, and I'm running the LE version which is less resource hungry. When I use 2 or 3 different microphone perspectives at the same time it's very doable.
As for sound, please show me an Ivory concert D demo that has an equally natural realistic tone and as high an apparent sound quality as the demo I posted above. I don't know any and have been unable to make them myself either.
If you're looking for character and imperfections and uneven tone etc then Ivory wins indeed but it's not as good as the Production Grand in my experience / opinion.
(but opinions will always differ as your comment shows)

As for Steinway vs Yamaha. Yes I prefer a Steinway too when I listen to a real recording. But seriously, with sampled pianos they are not on the level yet where choice of piano matters nearly as much as how the piano was sampled.


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## re-peat (Oct 28, 2013)

Justintonation,

It may be a great virtual piano (I've heard other people enthuse about it as well), but, with permission, you present in the worst possible way. This sounds really quite bad, if you don't mind me saying so. A hollow, almost ghostlike pianosound, the left hand seems to come from a different instrument altogether (and sounds waaaaay to heavy as well) and the whole thing trapped in a very piano-unfriendly room ... 
I don't know what you did with Altiverb, but it doesn't do this instrument, nor this music any favours.


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## pavolbrezina (Oct 28, 2013)

Justintonation, you must be kidding not to hear difference in Steinway and Yamaha in digital sampled world. Do you think that synthogy makes Grands because of no difference? I have question - did you ever play real Steinway concert D piano? If yes you must know that key feature of good sampled piano is difference between low and high register which is almost unreal to emulate, Steinway pianos cant be beaten in that manner {you can study about it, just use google}

One think changed my opinion in sampled world, where I cant find good sounding piano for some years. After playing Ivory concert D I realise one thing that shock me isntantly - sound and response of lower registers, insanely close to real Steinway { I played real morning that day and in evening istall Ivory} I was shocked by this.

From your example, there is feel of completely differend sonic of low registers and high registers and also 12 dynamic layers are not enough for great response. It can be all hearable from your not so good sounding example { I am not talking about performance!!!!} I agree that synthogy doesnt have good demos of American D, it can sound much different...


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## justintonation (Oct 28, 2013)

re-peat @ Mon Oct 28 said:


> Justintonation,
> 
> It may be a great virtual piano (I've heard other people enthuse about it as well), but, with permission, you present in the worst possible way. This sounds really quite bad, if you don't mind me saying so. A hollow, almost ghostlike pianosound, the left hand seems to come from a different instrument altogether (and sounds waaaaay to heavy as well) and the whole thing trapped in a very piano-unfriendly room ...
> I don't know what you did with Altiverb, but it doesn't do this instrument, nor this music any favours.



I agree it's a bit hollow sounding and wide.
I would have to EQ and modify the velocities and reduce stereo width, but wanted to give the demo without modifications. Just put it in a room (which I do like myself).
I'm still learning to get the best out of it.
But compare it to other pianos, it's so much closer to a real piano than the other ones to me already. The other ones have errors that are much greater to my ears that I can't even begin to fix.


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 28, 2013)

No dog in this fight but as someone who has played lots of Steinway D Grands, I will say that no two I have ever played sounded identical.


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## pavolbrezina (Oct 28, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Oct 28 said:


> No dog in this fight but as someone who has played lots of Steinway D Grands, I will say that no two I have ever played sounded identical.



This is of course true, when you are going to buy Steinway you can choose from various pieces of same model. But basic characteristic and sound smoothness through whole tone range is same


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## justintonation (Oct 28, 2013)

pavolbrezina @ Mon Oct 28 said:


> Justintonation, you must be kidding not to hear difference in Steinway and Yamaha in digital sampled world. Do you think that synthogy makes Grands because of no difference? I have question - did you ever play real Steinway concert D piano? If yes you must know that key feature of good sampled piano is difference between low and high register which is almost unreal to emulate, Steinway pianos cant be beaten in that manner {you can study about it, just use google}
> 
> One think changed my opinion in sampled world, where I cant find good sounding piano for some years. After playing Ivory concert D I realise one thing that shock me isntantly - sound and response of lower registers, insanely close to real Steinway { I played real morning that day and in evening istall Ivory} I was shocked by this.
> 
> From your example, there is feel of completely differend sonic of low registers and high registers and also 12 dynamic layers are not enough for great response. It can be all hearable from your not so good sounding example { I am not talking about performance!!!!} I agree that synthogy doesnt have good demos of American D, it can sound much different...



No I've never played a real Steinway Concert D.
I have attended concerts where a Steinway Concert D was played and of course listen to plenty of recordings of a Steinway Concert D. It is my favorite sounding piano.
However, I prefer the Production Grand Yamaha C7 over any other sampled Steinway Concert D because of the way it is sampled. It is simply a more real piano to me than any Steinway piano.

And I can't really get how you can think the Ivory Steinway Concert D sounds like a real Steinway Concert D. It most certainly does not sound like a real one to me. Every note screams "sampled piano" to me.

Here give it a direct comparison yourself.
Synthogy Ivory II Steinway Concert D Grand:
http://synthogy.com/demos/play/d2011-11-01a.html
http://synthogy.com/demos/play/d2010-09-10d.html
http://synthogy.com/demos/play/d2010-10-22a.html
http://synthogy.com/demos/play/d2010-09-10b.html

Production Voices Production Grand C7:
https://soundcloud.com/justintonation/p ... -demo-faur

Neither are perfect. But to me there's quite a big difference in favor of the Production Grand.
And I can't see how anybody else would hear this differently. I'm listening to this on a pretty good audio system in my home studio but it's apparent to me as well with headphones and my computer speakers.

Now I'm not bashing Ivory pianos which are great for a sampled piano up till now, but about celebrating the Production Grand which is a step forwards in my opinion.
They must have done something really well in how they sampled it and processed the samples.
Now sure I'd wish they also sampled a Steinway Concert D in the same way.
I mean, if you listen to Ivory Steinway Concert D vs Ivory C7 I surely prefer the Concert D.
Comparing Production Grand C7 to Ivory C7 should be clear to all as well.
But to say the Production Grand is inferior to whatever other sampled piano just because it is a C7 is not justified in my opinion. (and certainly also not to my ears)


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## pavolbrezina (Oct 28, 2013)

Sorry I am talking about American D not Grand D of course. Demos on synthogy website is not what the piano really sounds, I am wondering why they put those demos up...


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## justintonation (Oct 28, 2013)

pavolbrezina @ Mon Oct 28 said:


> Sorry I am talking about American D not Grand D of course. Demos on synthogy website is not what the piano really sounds, I am wondering why they put those demos up...



Ah ok. I have not owned the American D.
But do you know of a demo that is representative of the American D?
Or what would be really great is if someone could render the same MIDI I used with the American D (I linked to the MIDI some posts above).


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## germancomponist (Oct 28, 2013)

I'm listening on a little net-book here but what I hear is that big room/verb difference between the A-D demos and the P-G demo. The reverb adds a lot to the sound of the P-G demo in a good way.

Best thing would be to compare them both with a same reverb, or is that nice room baked into the samples of the P-Grand?


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## bbunker (Oct 28, 2013)

If there's any topic that'll get the boxing gloves out, it's the ole' "which piano is the BESTEST" topic.

And then to say that no-one could possibly say that ANY Steinway is as good as the Production Grand? Them's fighting words if ever there were any.

I for one didn't think your demo sounded better. Sorry.


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## justintonation (Oct 28, 2013)

Yes sorry, I didn't intend it to be such a topic.
I was trying to show my enthusiasm for the Production Grand. But I see now that I indeed created such a thread lol. Ah well  Interesting thread nonetheless.

But it is odd that you're not hearing it the same way as I am..
I'll check my demo on more audio systems. I have pretty good confidence in my system but perhaps I'm missing something here.
Anybody else thinks the Ivory - Production Grand comparison I posted above goes in favor of Ivory?


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## justintonation (Oct 28, 2013)

germancomponist @ Mon Oct 28 said:


> I'm listening on a little net-book here but what I hear is that big room/verb difference between the A-D demos and the P-G demo. The reverb adds a lot to the sound of the P-G demo in a good way.
> 
> Best thing would be to compare them both with a same reverb, or is that nice room baked into the samples of the P-Grand?



The room isn't in the Production Grand. I put it on myself with Altiverb.
The Production Grand is very dry itself and doesn't come with any reverb (can't really stand the super dry sound of Production Grand myself).

I'm assuming other demos put on reverb that they like.
Could make a demo comparison between several pianos in the same room, though I can already tell you that other sampled pianos do not sound the same in the same room (I guess because of the dryness the Production Grand interacts really nice and realistic with convolution reverb, haven't tried artificial algorithmic reverb). And I'm not sure if I want to go through all this trouble


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## germancomponist (Oct 28, 2013)

justintonation @ Mon Oct 28 said:


> Anybody else thinks the Ivory - Production Grand comparison I posted above goes in favor of Ivory?



The comparison sucks for some reasons, as I said in my earlier post. Are there also mory "dry" examples from the P-Grand?

EDIT: I was typing when you wrote your last post. 

Yes, make a dry demo please!


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## justintonation (Oct 28, 2013)

germancomponist @ Mon Oct 28 said:


> The comparison sucks for some reasons, as I said in my earlier post. Are there also mory "dry" examples from the P-Grand?
> 
> EDIT: I was typing when you wrote your last post.
> 
> Yes, make a dry demo please!



I'm not going to make a dry demo myself. (and again to clarify things, I'm not affiliated with Production Voices, simply a fan)
I don't like the dry sound (perhaps for pop or something it could be suitable but not for a piece like this).
But there are dry demos on http://www.productionvoices.com/products/piano-samples/production-grand-2/ (http://www.productionvoices.com/product ... n-grand-2/)
Am assuming these are of the 96khz 24bit full Production Grand, I have the "LE" version which is the same samples only 44.1 16bit so perhaps lose a tiny bit of quality.

I personally don't like the dry demos on the Production Grand webpage, but I heard a certain quality in them which got me paying attention and getting the "LE" version.
There's this piano of which it reminds me a little bit, BDMO. It was sampled completely dry in an even more treated studio and comes with convolution samples to give it different sounds.
I really like the concept of it but the result was a too unnatural tone to me. It always sounds like it has some sort of "phasing" on it.
I'm hearing this back a little bit in the Production Grand but in a very manageable level and this goes away with reverb use which gives it a natural tone back to my ears and gives a more natural mids and bass (though I think some extra EQ could help too. will try experimenting with this myself later, though this is not good for a demo of course)


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## re-peat (Oct 28, 2013)

justintonation @ Mon Oct 28 said:


> Or what would be really great is if someone could render the same MIDI I used with the American D (I linked to the MIDI some posts above).


Justintonation,

Here's http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/Faur%e9-Barcarolle_AmericanD.mp3 (an AmericanD version). (Not the entire piece, but enough for this excercise.) Much drier that your ProductionGrand version, but I really don't like what you did with Altiverb there. No piano, not even a real one, could survive such treatment, let alone a sampled one. Besides, this is Fauré at his most tender and gentle, and I feel a subtle amount of chamber with the piano not too deep in it, serves the music best. A sampled piano doesn't though. This is extremely tough territory for virtual pianos, and to my ears, the AmericanD, while not completely unsuccessful in this music, was put on this earth for different things. Still, I MUCH prefer it to the ProductionGrand.

I'll have a go at it with the VLabs TrueKeys American as well.

_


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## justintonation (Oct 28, 2013)

re-peat @ Mon Oct 28 said:


> justintonation @ Mon Oct 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Or what would be really great is if someone could render the same MIDI I used with the American D (I linked to the MIDI some posts above).
> ...



Thank you very much! 

And wow, what trikes me the most is how different the velocities are handled.
Judging purely from these two I'd say the real performance was somewhere in between. Not as "piano" as the American D renders the MIDI, and not as "forte" as the Production Grand renders it.

As for quality of tone, while I think the American D appears to have a better realistic tone than the Steinway Concert D Grand, to me Production Grand still wins here.
I can tell right away that it's a sampled piano and it has a very muffled quality to me.
Perhaps the Production Grand is still lacking a bit of body here, I'll see if I can bring this in with EQ and reverb in the future, but the American D goes overboard here to me like many other sampled pianos. I don't own a real recording where a piano sounds like that.

As for reverb, I like reverb  And I own many recordings which have more reverb than I put in my demo.
But tastes differ here I guess.

Very much looking forward to the Vlabs Truekeys demo!
That's the other popular piano which I've never played myself.


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 28, 2013)

Here is the QL Pianos Steinway D, no added verb or EQ, just the Player and Room mic in the default lid position.

https://soundcloud.com/jay-asher/faure- ... steinway-d


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## re-peat (Oct 28, 2013)

http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/Faur%e9-Barcarolle_TrueKeysAm.mp3 (The VLabs TrueKeys)

_


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## justintonation (Oct 28, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Oct 28 said:


> Here is the QL Pianos Steinway D, no added verb or EQ, just the Player and Room mic in the default lid position.
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/jay-asher/faure- ... steinway-d



Thank you Jay! 

It sounds really good to me!
And much better than the Ivory posted before (with respect though, but its a very different sound).
I also like it better than the Vintage D which I have myself.
And I think the velocities are spot on.
Really great match for the MIDI as I expected.
I'll try making another one myself with different mic perspective and better velocities and use this one as as a measure for how the MIDI should play velocity wise.


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## re-peat (Oct 28, 2013)

If I were on a jury, and based on what is posted in this thread, my points would be as follows:

ProductionGrand: 0/10
QL Steinway: 0,5/10
AmericanD: 4/10
VLabsTrueKeys: 5/10

_


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## feck (Oct 28, 2013)

I second that Production Voices is an amazing piano sample set. I have virtually every piano sample set out there, and between Production Voices and Vienna Imperial, I don't use anything else these days, save some Imperfect Samples pianos when I need things to be creaky and less, well, perfect. :D


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## justintonation (Oct 28, 2013)

re-peat @ Mon Oct 28 said:


> http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/Faur%e9-Barcarolle_TrueKeysAm.mp3 (The VLabs TrueKeys)
> 
> _



Thank you!

Strange though as it sounds almost the same as the Ivory American D to me.
Slightly dryer and a tiny bit less "muffled" but still a very unbalanced sound to me.
I prefer the Production Grand and Galaxy Steinway D personally. They sound way more natural and balanced to me.
But I understand preferences vary.
Thanks again for posting!


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## MrCambiata (Oct 28, 2013)

Definitely look at the Orange tree samples Rosewood grand for a Yamaha.


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## quantum7 (Oct 28, 2013)

I looked at the Production Grand before finally choosing True Keys, but am not a fan at all of the Yamaha C7.....which is no where in the same ballpark as a Steinway D in sound for my tastes. If you absolutely want a sampled Yamaha, though, Orange Tree's Rosewood is probably one of the better ones I've heard.


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## justintonation (Oct 28, 2013)

feck @ Mon Oct 28 said:


> I second that Production Voices is an amazing piano sample set. I have virtually every piano sample set out there, and between Production Voices and Vienna Imperial, I don't use anything else these days, save some Imperfect Samples pianos when I need things to be creaky and less, well, perfect. :D



Aah the Vienna Imperial!
Now that's a piano I find very interesting but sadly can't afford it right now.
Also interesting that you pick these two pianos. I already agree with you on the Production Grand and fear that I may agree as well on the Vienna Imperial..

Should you have time to spare and have fun doing it, I'd be very very interested in hearing what it makes of the Fauré MIDI 
Here's the MIDI again: http://www.kunstderfuge.com/faure.htm top of the page 1. Barcarolle in a minor, Op. 26 * (the one with the * besides it)


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## milesito (Oct 28, 2013)

What about the 8dio 1928 Steinway? Isn't it better than the Production Grand? Just curious what your thoughts are...


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## re-peat (Oct 28, 2013)

Justintonation,

I wonder what you make of http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/Faur%e9-Barcarolle_KS.mp3 (this version). (Kathryn Stott, Hyperion)

I've added a bit more reverb to my previous two examples. Already too much for my own taste, but it does make for an easier comparison.
http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/Faur%e9-Barcarolle_AmericanD.mp3 (AmericanD)
http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/Faur%e9-Barcarolle_TrueKeysAm.mp3 (TrueKeys)

_


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## feck (Oct 28, 2013)

milesito @ Mon Oct 28 said:


> What about the 8dio 1928 Steinway? Isn't it better than the Production Grand? Just curious what your thoughts are...


I will put that MIDI file through Vienna and post it....and might as well do it through Production Voices too.


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## germancomponist (Oct 28, 2013)

What an interesting thread!

I have compleated a project now and will listen in my studio now how different the pianos sound.


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## mark812 (Oct 28, 2013)

PiB version, no EQ, just added reverb:

https://app.box.com/s/4r7mvt9lvaiizka5543t

Definitely my favorite piano (I also have Imperfect Fazioli, The Giant but hardly use them anymore).


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## NYC Composer (Oct 28, 2013)

I bought the Production Grand LE and liked it- got a very good deal on it and the subsequent upgrade to the full version. I think it's a good pop grand and well worth the money. However, as it was my 10th (give or take) piano sample/sampling collection, two things have become clear:

1. "Hi, my name is Larry, and I'm addicted to piano samples. Tonight I've earned my one week chip, but the Ivory American D is calling me..."

2. No single sampled piano covers all the bases I want to cover.


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## justintonation (Oct 28, 2013)

re-peat @ Mon Oct 28 said:


> Justintonation,
> 
> I wonder what you make of http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/Faur%e9-Barcarolle_KS.mp3 (this version). (Kathryn Stott, Hyperion)
> 
> ...



Woow.. Thanks for posting this!
The real piano recording is indeed much much closer to your pianos.
I don't have any recordings where a piano sounds like this, this "warm". So this is an eye opener to me.
I get where you're coming from now.

The added reverb is an improvement to me.
I like them both in this new perspective! (perhaps I like American D slightly more but it's very minor doesn't matter much)

Very interesting to see how your example changes my perspective on what is "real" and natural sounding to me.


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## Dan Mott (Oct 28, 2013)

Is piano sound about taste?

If it's about personal taste, then there is no best piano sample library.

What I realized is that when you get a new piano sample library, it's really great and refreshing/inspiring. However, after you play it over and over again, you start to know every velocity or RR. You know that if you hit the key x hard, it will make a certain sound that you have heard time and time again. 

Pianoteq is good for modelling your own, but all the pianos sound too perfect and plastic to me. They all sound like the samples that come with some of the best digital pianos.

So what does one do? 

:x


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## re-peat (Oct 28, 2013)

milesito @ Mon Oct 28 said:


> What about the 8dio 1928 Steinway?


Here's http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/Faure-Barcarolle_1928.mp3 (a version with the 1928). 

(Had to do A LOT of midi-editing for this version, cause the 1928 is programmed rather sloppily and very unpianistically, I find. At identical velocity values, some notes almost disappear while others are much louder than the expected level (making the colour of chords very unpredictable), and the overal dynamic response is extremely strange and completely unpiano-like. Loaded with default settings, this has got to be one of the most unplayable sampled pianos I know. But ... if the timbre and character fit the music (which is definitely not the case here, in my opinion), a rather useful colour to have on your palette.

_


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## Dan Mott (Oct 28, 2013)

re-peat @ Tue Oct 29 said:


> milesito @ Mon Oct 28 said:
> 
> 
> > What about the 8dio 1928 Steinway?
> ...




+1000


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## germancomponist (Oct 28, 2013)

> The added reverb is an improvement to me.



... what a little reverb can do 

My first thoughts when I read your statements about Piet's first examples.... .


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 28, 2013)

When I think of what a Steinway D playing classical music should sound like, this is the one. I got to hear him play it live and I will never forget it.

http://www.steinway.com/news/press-rele ... ican-tour/


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## feck (Oct 28, 2013)

Here is the link - https://app.box.com/s/kvhkovsgz03o4cuguz3m

I didn't edit the MIDI at all, just pulled it in, ran both through my Bricasti M7 on the Sandors Hall preset. Vienna Imperial is the player perspective, Production Voices is all 8 mics blended to my taste. Both are 16 bit/44.1k files. Let me know your thoughts.


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 28, 2013)

germancomponist @ Mon Oct 28 said:


> > The added reverb is an improvement to me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You want a little reverb? 
https://soundcloud.com/jay-asher/faure- ... way-d-with


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## germancomponist (Oct 28, 2013)

Oops, to be sure there is no missunderstanding, Jay. 

Not I wanted more reverb, but I was sure that the thread opener was missing it at Pie's first examples. 

For my taste, it depends. Sometimes it is needed and sometimes it is not.


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## HardyP (Oct 28, 2013)

For comparison purposes - OT Rosewood Grand (out of box, but Noise floor -10dB, no reverb), and another one for blind test (some built in reverb):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/chzj059xe9rtz ... PianoX.mp3
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3p0ccyaj2sgzi ... sewood.mp3

Edit: sorry, more convenient links...


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## justintonation (Oct 28, 2013)

Ok here another version of the Production Grand:
https://soundcloud.com/justintonation/p ... emo-faur-1

I modified the MIDI velocity to make it play softer.
MIDI wasn't a good match, was probably played on a much softer responding piano.
Maybe I overdid it a little though and it's now too soft..

Picked a different mic this time, the 414 room mic (though there isn't any room reverb to speak of).
Didn't add any reverb. So it's completely dry.
That doesn't work well for this piano in my opinion as it's recorded so dry it becomes unrealistic. But since some asked for it I thought ah why not  There you have it.


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## HardyP (Oct 28, 2013)

And here the 2 above ones with some reverb (Space Designer´s "Dark Piano Hall"):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/k9bgtm5ljh0p8 ... od-Rev.mp3
https://www.dropbox.com/s/p8f93x73tzw6i ... oX-Rev.mp3

Ok then, piano experts - who is PianoX?!?


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## justintonation (Oct 28, 2013)

feck @ Tue Oct 29 said:


> Here is the link - https://app.box.com/s/kvhkovsgz03o4cuguz3m
> 
> I didn't edit the MIDI at all, just pulled it in, ran both through my Bricasti M7 on the Sandors Hall preset. Vienna Imperial is the player perspective, Production Voices is all 8 mics blended to my taste. Both are 16 bit/44.1k files. Let me know your thoughts.



Ohh you have an M7 too. Very jealous now haha.

I like the example! But it's too much high tones for me, but I realize why this is.
The MIDI is playing too loud velocities on the Production Grand. Of all the pianos posted here the Production Grand is hitting the highest velocities by far (or in other words, it's reserving a larger MIDI velocity space for higher velocities).
I posted a version with lowered MIDI velocities (0.6 times the velocities in the MIDI file, changed it with a MIDI plugin in Reaper) and then it gets much more mids and lows and goes more in the direction of the examples posted of the Truekeys and Ivory.
Sorry didn't realize this before. Simply picked a MIDI because Fauré is my favorite composer and didn't see any other live played MIDI files by him.


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## justintonation (Oct 28, 2013)

HardyP @ Tue Oct 29 said:


> And here the 2 above ones with some reverb (Space Designer´s "Dark Piano Hall"):
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/k9bgtm5ljh0p8 ... od-Rev.mp3
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/p8f93x73tzw6i ... oX-Rev.mp3
> 
> Ok then, piano experts - who is PianoX?!?



Thanks for posting them!

The OT rosewood isn't very good to my ears though. The tone is pretty bad but especially the way it behaves sounds like a lot goes wrong.

The PianoX I have no idea which it is, and my ears are pretty bad by now after listening to so many pianos haha. Don't know what to think of it right now..
I don't think the reverb is very fitting though.


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## justintonation (Oct 28, 2013)

feck @ Tue Oct 29 said:


> Here is the link - https://app.box.com/s/kvhkovsgz03o4cuguz3m
> 
> I didn't edit the MIDI at all, just pulled it in, ran both through my Bricasti M7 on the Sandors Hall preset. Vienna Imperial is the player perspective, Production Voices is all 8 mics blended to my taste. Both are 16 bit/44.1k files. Let me know your thoughts.



I misread your post at first.
It seems you already intended to include the Vienna Imperial demo?
The link gives me only the Production Grand demo. Something went wrong?


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## feck (Oct 28, 2013)

justintonation @ Mon Oct 28 said:


> feck @ Tue Oct 29 said:
> 
> 
> > Here is the link - https://app.box.com/s/kvhkovsgz03o4cuguz3m
> ...


Look up top on the Box page, there is a button to scroll to the next file which is the Vienna.


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## justintonation (Oct 28, 2013)

feck @ Tue Oct 29 said:


> Look up top on the Box page, there is a button to scroll to the next file which is the Vienna.



Not for me, I only see a download and file options button.
I do see an "auto play next file" checkbox next to "play" but ticking that doesn't give me the next file after this one finishes playing.


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## re-peat (Oct 28, 2013)

justintonation @ Tue Oct 29 said:


> The OT rosewood isn't very good to my ears though. The tone is pretty bad but especially the way it behaves sounds like a lot goes wrong.
> The PianoX (...)


There's definitely something very wrong with that Rosewood. Almost sounds as if the sustain pedal is linked to an expression controller or something, making the sound swell very unnaturally everytime the sustain pedal is pressed down. Did Greg really program it like this? 
As for its timbre: this music certainly doesn't seem to bring out the best in the instrument. At least, I hope it doesn't.

PianoX sounds a bit Pianoteq-ish to me.

And I couldn't find that scroll button which leads to Feck's ViennaImperial either.

_


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## germancomponist (Oct 29, 2013)

re-peat @ Tue Oct 29 said:


> And I couldn't find that scroll button which leads to Feck's ViennaImperial either.
> 
> _



Same here....

But this comparisons are showing us that you cannot use a same midifile especially when you experiment with different pianos. 

All instruments react different to the key velocity.

I have experimented with the Cubase key velocity compressor to soften it and with any setting you get always a complete different "sound".


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## justintonation (Oct 29, 2013)

germancomponist @ Tue Oct 29 said:


> But this comparisons are showing us that you cannot use a same midifile especially when you experiment with different pianos.
> 
> All instruments react different to the key velocity.
> 
> I have experimented with the Cubase key velocity compressor to soften it and with any setting you get always a complete different "sound".



Yes I mostly agree.
And to make matters worse the Production Grand has 8 microphone perspectives which all have their own sound..

So I couldn't resist to make another version with the Production Grand 
This one uses the 4 "vintage" mic perspectives at equal volume, has lowered (compressed) velocity (perhaps too low), and I put a tiny bit of reverb on it to take away the extreme dryness.
https://soundcloud.com/justintonation/pg-faure-vintage

Here the old one again for comparison.
It uses 2 "modern" mic perspectives, has the original MIDI file velocities (too high I think), and has quite a bit of reverb.
https://soundcloud.com/justintonation/p ... -demo-faur

Two very different sounds indeed. (and could make many more different sounds just by varying mic perspectives mixes, velocity and reverb).
Though some character of the piano stays the same. I'd say it has a "clean perfection and coherence" to its sound which I quite like.
And still think the two demos above are probably the most "real" sounding to me.


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## germancomponist (Oct 29, 2013)

Instead of using the same midi file it would/could be sound much better if you play some notes from this piece by yourself... .


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## justintonation (Oct 29, 2013)

germancomponist @ Tue Oct 29 said:


> Instead of using the same midi file it would/could be sound much better if you play some notes from this piece by yourself... .



Hehe.. it would not  I'm a lousy piano player. Theory is my thing  (have been doing just intonation / music theory research for the past 7 or so years)
On top of that I'm in between keyboards at the moment and only have an unweighted synth action keyboard right now. (will get my weighted keyboard in about a month, and rental real piano in a few months. Will pick up playng again by then.)


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## HardyP (Oct 29, 2013)

re-peat @ 2013-10-29 said:


> There's definitely something very wrong with that Rosewood. Almost sounds as if the sustain pedal is linked to an expression controller or something, making the sound swell very unnaturally everytime the sustain pedal is pressed down. Did Greg really program it like this?


Jepp, as I said, it´s the "out-of-the-box" setting, but "Noise floor" allready lowered... I think he overdid the sympathetic resonance, and the ambient noise is really high (tremendous build-up when you hold the sustain pedal) - as if your head is directly above the strings when lifting the damper.
However, you can tweak EVERYTHING, means you can switch SR or different noises off, or adjust their levels, and so on. Means you can defenitely clean everything up (or just use one of the other patches). BUT, until now, I can not second edrummists marketing posts during OTs group buy, that ERG is undervalued and often overlooked. 
It has it´s right to exist and certainly several good points - but nothing "first choice / all purpose tool". I may dig in the other presets as well, but until now, I would prefer it for situations, where an intimate experience is necessary, but not if you want to hear a classical piece in an concert atmosphere.


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## ProtectedRights (Oct 29, 2013)

re-peat @ Mon Oct 28 said:


> _



Hey re-peat, I was so excited to hear all these comparisons, now all your links are broken? Did you remove the files?

PS: Yeah, Rosewood sounds like there is an evil compressor working on it


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## Symfoniq (Oct 29, 2013)

justintonation @ Mon Oct 28 said:


> Aah the Vienna Imperial!
> Now that's a piano I find very interesting but sadly can't afford it right now.
> Also interesting that you pick these two pianos. I already agree with you on the Production Grand and fear that I may agree as well on the Vienna Imperial..



I decided to take advantage of the 30%-off sale and picked up the Vienna Imperial last week. It's just fantastic, but I can't offer a comparison to the Production Grand since I don't own it.


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## ProtectedRights (Oct 29, 2013)

re-peat @ Mon Oct 28 said:


> PianoX sounds a bit Pianoteq-ish to me.



This thread is really helping me to understand what "Pianoteq-ish" means exactly. I am comparing the mp3s that are still available here against the midi file that I let play by Pianoteq with different presets. 

There is a difference to all the sampled pianos. Something odd, artificial, strange is in the sound. I think it is the same that, even without direct comparison, I always notice as a boxyness in the sound. 

Well, this thread tore walls. I was a Pianoteq fanboy, convinced that I never need anything lese. Now I think I have a sampled piano on my wishlist >8o 
I still adore the flexibility of Pianoteq. If only it could take that last leap to realism that it is behind the sampled pianos! o 

Cyber Monday, keep 'em coming! :mrgreen: 

BTW I think this thread IS 100% useful to compare pianos. I am pretty sure that I can distinguish between reverb and piano. And I can also deal with that they don't sound exactly the same note by note because of differenc velocity curves. I can "unbias" this with my ear and brain. I still get a huge deal of info out of this about how a pianos character and sound is.


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## DocMidi657 (Oct 29, 2013)

Hey Peat!

Dave here,..loved your examples of these pianos! Really helpful.

Of all the the virtual pianos out there you've played/own, which one do you think is the best in regards to the combination of playability and tone? (in regards to a general piano and not for a specific application like an emotional movie score piano moment etc.

I've got a bunch and recently purchased PianoTeq and at first thought wow! but as I spent more time with it, the playability is strong but now my ears are telling me the sound is not quite there as much as I initially thought.

Love to know your thoughts!
Dave


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## ProtectedRights (Oct 29, 2013)

mark812 @ Mon Oct 28 said:


> PiB version, no EQ, just added reverb:
> https://app.box.com/s/4r7mvt9lvaiizka5543t
> Definitely my favorite piano (I also have Imperfect Fazioli, The Giant but hardly use them anymore).



This sounds great. I compared it with Pianoteq. While PiB (what does it stand for, actually?) clearly wins with the soft intro, later at fuller passages I think Pianoteq has a clearer sound. At 1:28 there is huuuuuuge noise. Is that from the samples? 

Anyways here is my Pianoteq, based on the Bluethner Model One:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/33470365/barcarolle26coguri.mp3 (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/334 ... coguri.mp3)


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## germancomponist (Oct 29, 2013)

ProtectedRights @ Tue Oct 29 said:


> re-peat @ Mon Oct 28 said:
> 
> 
> > _
> ...



+1

The same for the other demos. It was very interesting for me to listen to the different pianos. 

But there is the thing with the velocity..... . The same will happen for many other instruments too.


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## ProtectedRights (Oct 29, 2013)

I made a few tweaks to the Bluethner patch trying to get closer to your examples posted here, and I am quite surprised myself, now I think it plays in the same league.

http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/33470365/barcarolle26coguri.mp3 (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3347 ... coguri.mp3)


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## ProtectedRights (Oct 29, 2013)

justintonation @ Mon Oct 28 said:


> feck @ Tue Oct 29 said:
> 
> 
> > Look up top on the Box page, there is a button to scroll to the next file which is the Vienna.
> ...



+1

Would like to hear the Imperial but can't see it.


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## mark812 (Oct 29, 2013)

ProtectedRights @ Tue Oct 29 said:


> mark812 @ Mon Oct 28 said:
> 
> 
> > PiB version, no EQ, just added reverb:
> ...



It's Cinesamples Piano in Blue, the best sampled piano available atm (even with some problems it has), especially for classical and cinematic applications - in my opinion, of course. The only piano here that I liked nearly as PiB in this situation was True Keys in re-peat's example. Vintage D, Production Grand, East West don't come close to this. Maybe I'm just not a fan of those more generic, "sterile" pianos.

Unfortunately, you're right - Piano in Blue (even v2) has some serious problems with noise, especially linked to sustain. I only used direct samples, not tape. I'm hoping that Cinesamples are going to fix this because it's such a gorgeous product and it would be a real shame if it wasn't fixed.


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## justintonation (Oct 29, 2013)

justintonation @ Tue Oct 29 said:


> This one uses the 4 "vintage" mic perspectives at equal volume, has lowered (compressed) velocity (perhaps too low), and I put a tiny bit of reverb on it to take away the extreme dryness.
> https://soundcloud.com/justintonation/pg-faure-vintage
> 
> Here the old one again for comparison.
> ...



Ok the previous vintage version was a bit rough to say it mildly.. just throwing in 4 mic perspectives at random at equal volume.
Just now getting the hang of mixing different mix perspectives.
So did a new vintage one. This one is mainly the vintage room mic (ribbon) with a bit of the mono pzm mic under the piano mixed in.

https://soundcloud.com/justintonation/p ... mo-vintage

Added less reverb than with the first one, and more importantly I ticked on the "mute direct" in Altiverb. It made the whole piano sound as if it went through the same mic that was used to sample the convolution reverb thereby degrading the sound quite noticeably. So this one has a pure direct sound.

In all I think it turned out great 
Very expressive and natural sounding to me. (perhaps I like it the best of them all so far).
Let me know what you think, am I losing my ears or is this really good? 

Will make another one with modern mic perspectives as well I think, bit of training practice and getting to know the Production Grand for me.


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## justintonation (Oct 29, 2013)

ProtectedRights @ Tue Oct 29 said:


> I made a few tweaks to the Bluethner patch trying to get closer to your examples posted here, and I am quite surprised myself, now I think it plays in the same league.
> 
> http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/33470365/barcarolle26coguri.mp3 (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3347 ... coguri.mp3)



Thanks for posting it!

But to me it has the worst sound of all of them (except for the Orange Tree Rosewood with the "out of the box" settings that is).
I gave Pianoteq a try myself as well for quite some time. The demo version, couldn't get myself to pay for it without knowing if I could live with its timbre, in the end I couldn't.
There's something really artificial about the Pianoteq sound that won't go away to me.
I did find that on some audio systems this was much less noticeable.
I also found that it was very uninspiring to me to play, I didn't get into the beauty of the music like with even a mediocre sampled piano (for composing that was).
Having said that, I do think you got an as good as it gets sound out of Pianoteq! Definitely better than the standard D4 presets.


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## feck (Oct 29, 2013)

Hey guys. Strange about the Box.net site not showing the 2nd file (Vienna Imperial). Here is a direct link to it...

Vienna Imperial - https://app.box.com/s/zfews4ko84vb24esg602

Production Grand - https://app.box.com/files/0/f/126721910 ... 1349687692


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## ProtectedRights (Oct 29, 2013)

@feck: cool thanks!

@justintonation: I disagree. I think Pianoteq is playing pretty well here. However I can't access any of re-peats demos. Can anybody else?


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## Scrianinoff (Oct 29, 2013)

ProtectedRights @ Tue 29 Oct said:


> However I can't access any of re-peats demos. Can anybody else?


That's probably because re-peat is notorious for taking down his shared links quickly. You can always ask him to re-peat his upload


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## justintonation (Oct 29, 2013)

feck @ Tue Oct 29 said:


> Hey guys. Strange about the Box.net site not showing the 2nd file (Vienna Imperial). Here is a direct link to it...
> 
> Vienna Imperial - https://app.box.com/s/zfews4ko84vb24esg602
> 
> Production Grand - https://app.box.com/files/0/f/126721910 ... 1349687692



Great, thank you!
Though it's not sounding as good to me as I hoped. (some of the demos on the Vienna site sound really good)
And perhaps the Imperial needs lower velocities as well.


@ProtectedRights: I can't access re-peats demos anymore either.


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## ProtectedRights (Oct 29, 2013)

I pm'd re-peat to re-peat


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## germancomponist (Oct 29, 2013)

It is a shame that I had lost my old piano samples with what I did a little piano instrument some years ago. The microphones were about ten feet in front of the piano. The sound was wonderful. 

All these mic positions are great, but have you ever listened to a piano player by holding your head into the piano? :mrgreen:


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## Scrianinoff (Oct 29, 2013)

It's been a long time since I shared something over here. But here I go:

https://soundcloud.com/scrianinoff/faur ... in-a-minor

I ran the midi file through the virtual piano that I am playing every day. It took me over two years to arrive at this sound. I was hesitant to post it here, because the sound of this piano really inspires me to play and to compose, and I don't want to jeopardize the level of inspiration I get from it. The sound comes close to the piano sound of my dreams. Yet, one man's dream can be another man's nightmare. Heck, re-peat might rank it minus 5 on a scale from 1 to 10 

Does anyone else care to share a render of the piece through his (or her) favourite mix? I am really interested in hearing your favourite piano sound.


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## ProtectedRights (Oct 29, 2013)

@Scrianinoff: which VI is it?


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## germancomponist (Oct 29, 2013)

Scrianinoff @ Tue Oct 29 said:


> It's been a long time since I shared something over here. But here I go:
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/scrianinoff/faur ... a-minor-op
> 
> ...



Listening on my net-book on the little speakers but I like what I hear. The room/verb sounds very simultan how my dream piano sound sounds. 

Maybe the reason for this is because as a young child I very often listened to a great piano player when he did his lessons, in a room what sounded like this one. I loved it to listen to him.


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## justintonation (Oct 29, 2013)

@Scrianoff: Love the sound! Very characterful, and good reverb too. Dream sound indeed.

@ProtectedRights: Good to get them back online in this thread, they are indeed good for comparison. I really warmed up to them.
Also have them saved on my computer btw, so in case he doesn't have them anymore I can upload them too (with permission of course)


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## justintonation (Oct 29, 2013)

Ok here the modern mic version of the Production Grand:

https://soundcloud.com/justintonation/p ... emo-modern

Used only the room mic perspective (AKG C414), thought it fits the music best.
I absolutely love how it sounds (even more so than the vintage perspective I uploaded earlier). Perfect for me.
Did a 1 on 1 comparison with all the versions posted here and the one which I like the most after this one is the True Keys one, hope it comes back online soon, though it does not have the pure quality of sound and that extra bit of realism to me.

So I pretty much stand behind my claim again with which I started this thread haha 
I think the Production Grand (when played with the proper velocities) is the best 
Really try out the direct comparison with the other ones here (I set the soundcloud version above to allow downloads).


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## Scrianinoff (Oct 29, 2013)

Listening on decent headphones, I discovered something went wrong in bouncing the midi file offline in Cubase. Some effect caused a chorusy side effect. I bounced again using the real-time option and now it sounds like it should. I've replaced the soundcloud link in my previous post with the corrected version, being: https://soundcloud.com/scrianinoff/faur ... in-a-minor

@justintonation: Congratulations on finding the piano that makes you happy! I am curious to know whether this piano will still be your favourite in a few months time. I will have a good listen again tomorrow.

@ProtectedRights: I'll tell, but please, first, guess! 

@Gunther: Similar experiences too, so we both can join Horowitz in that regard, who as a toddler used to listen to his mother playing the piano.


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## justintonation (Oct 29, 2013)

Scrianinoff @ Tue Oct 29 said:


> @justintonation: Congratulations on finding the piano that makes you happy! I am curious to know whether this piano will still be your favourite in a few months time. I will have a good listen again tomorrow.



Thanks 
I think it will be. Getting back to music theory now and playing the piano in just intonation (can be tuned by Kontakt scripts).

Btw, the reverb you're using is that in Vienna Ensemble Pro? Vienna Suite? Or something else?
Really good reverb!!


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## germancomponist (Oct 29, 2013)

Scrianinoff @ Tue Oct 29 said:


> Listening on decent headphones, I discovered something went wrong in bouncing the midi file offline in Cubase. Some effect caused a chorusy side effect. I bounced again using the real-time option and now it sounds like it should....



Huh?

We must clarify this! Did someone else had this issue too?


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## Scrianinoff (Oct 29, 2013)

@justintonation: I listened to your intonation experiments too on soundcloud. Really interesting how the intonation completely changes the mood and character of the melody. Bach apparently also liked to dabble with intonation on his harpsichords. I'd say you're in a good league then 

Which reverb I used? Which reverb I did not use (yet) will yield a shorter answer I guess. A more useful answer is: 90% of the reverb you hear is MIR, Spaces, SPAT and ValhallaRoom.


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## Dan Mott (Oct 29, 2013)

Scrianinoff @ Wed Oct 30 said:


> It's been a long time since I shared something over here. But here I go:
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/scrianinoff/faur ... in-a-minor
> 
> ...



Sounds very plastic to me, but if you are happy, that's all that matters I guess :D


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## justintonation (Oct 29, 2013)

Scrianinoff @ Wed Oct 30 said:


> @justintonation: I listened to your intonation experiments too on soundcloud. Really interesting how the intonation completely changes the mood and character of the melody. Bach apparently also liked to dabble with intonation on his harpsichords. I'd say you're in a good league then
> 
> Which reverb I used? Which reverb I did not use (yet) will yield a shorter answer I guess. A more useful answer is: 90% of the reverb you hear is MIR, Spaces, SPAT and ValhallaRoom.



Oh boy.. I was hoping for an easier to copy answer haha 
Well done!

As for the tuning examples on soundcloud, uploaded most of those to demo something in tuning related discussions. Definitely not made for sound quality 
Will make good quality harmonized maqam music soon.
And yes, all baroque etc composers were involved to some degree of what we call microtuning now, there was no 12-tone equal temperament in use yet (also not for Bach despite the false popular belief that he wrote his well tempered clavier for 12-tone equal temperament)


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## germancomponist (Oct 29, 2013)

Dan-Jay @ Wed Oct 30 said:


> Sounds very plastic to me, but if you are happy, that's all that matters I guess :D



I am sure it is more the room/reverb-sound what makes him happy and I accept this. Not only because I often am in a same boat/situation..... . A wide field!

And as a side note: In no situation in the real life you can listen to a piano-sound what was recorded when the mics were placed inside the piano e.t.c. ... . 

We so often get the suggestion to visit a concert by an orchestra, just to listen to the real thing. The same applies for a piano solo concert.


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## Dan Mott (Oct 29, 2013)

germancomponist @ Wed Oct 30 said:


> Dan-Jay @ Wed Oct 30 said:
> 
> 
> > Sounds very plastic to me, but if you are happy, that's all that matters I guess :D
> ...



I hear you.

You probably know that I love a close miced upright type sound. Intimate. Any piano that close miced. Inside or just above the soundboard.

However, I know you guys are talking about a room sound/concert sound. From the examples, it sounds like pianoteq in a room. Plastic like. It's hard to explain. The mid range just doesn't sound right to me and I have heard what pianos sound like in a good room/concert hall. I'd say the closest is the sound that Piet get's in his music. It's quite nice.

Cool thread. Keep the examples coming!


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## germancomponist (Oct 29, 2013)

I have to add: Piet's examples are mostly the best what I have heared here at VI-Control!


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## Dan Mott (Oct 29, 2013)

germancomponist @ Wed Oct 30 said:


> I have to add: Piet's examples are mostly the best what I have heared here at VI-Control!



Agree.


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## justintonation (Oct 29, 2013)

https://soundcloud.com/justintonation/p ... o-schumann

And here some Schumann played through the Production Grand 
I think it's amazing for a sampled piano! I mean this is silly good right?

MIDI is again played by Orguri and compressed the velocity a bit again.
Also played a few MIDI files mades from old piano rolls and those didn't have to be velocity compressed (but they had timing errors etc sadly) so I guess Oguri likes his velocities loud.
Result of this is that the very loudest velocities aren't hit in this rendering (though it gets close).
Perhaps I should find a different plugin that'll allow me to auto tune velocities in more detail. Anybody have any suggestions / knows of such a plugin?


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## renato_violin (Oct 31, 2013)

I'm new in this forum, and I'm interested in buy some of these pianos.
I have various pianos and rendered the first MIDI file (the one with high velocity levels) using Galaxy Vintage D with a little reverb (Altiverb)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/49169918/teste_vintage_d.mp3 (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/491 ... tage_d.mp3)


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## justintonation (Nov 2, 2013)

For those into microtuning:

https://soundcloud.com/justintonation/g ... colle-in-a

Tuned to Pythagorean just intonation.
Now that's something where a sampled piano has a big advantage over a real piano! 
It uses 14 tones per octave tuned according to the enharmonics of the score. Real piano only has 12 tones to tune per octave of course 
Enjoy the perfectly tuned piano


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## Goran (Nov 3, 2013)

Scrianinoff @ Tue Oct 29 said:


> It's been a long time since I shared something over here. But here I go:
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/scrianinoff/faur ... in-a-minor
> 
> ...



I am admittedly listening to this through a pretty shitty sound card, but it still sounds like a million dollars. Extremely realistic and clean with fantastic overall sound and balance, congratulations on this setup!

If you would care to reveal the secret (which library/instrument you are using), I would be curious


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## Goran (Nov 3, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Oct 28 said:


> You want a little reverb?
> https://soundcloud.com/jay-asher/faure- ... way-d-with



Thanks for posting this Jay. Right up there next to Scrianinoff's version in terms of sound, balance, playing quality and overall realism. EW's Steinway D is imo one of the at the most 3-5 best pianos out there.


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## ProtectedRights (Nov 4, 2013)

BTW, was the issue with the Rosewood Grand (Orange Tree) resolved? That heavy compression like sound?


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## renegade (Nov 4, 2013)

ProtectedRights @ Mon 04 Nov said:


> BTW, was the issue with the Rosewood Grand (Orange Tree) resolved? That heavy compression like sound?



It was the default sound that was used, and it just doesn't sound good. You have to tweak or at least load one of the presets.

Secondly, I think this piano is more geared towards pop/rock.


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## renegade (Nov 4, 2013)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12948366/OTRosewood.mp3

(reverb added)


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## Revson (Nov 4, 2013)

ProtectedRights @ Tue Oct 29 said:


> However I can't access any of re-peats demos. Can anybody else?



Note to self: never again click on one of re-peat's links. 

Re-peat: Perhaps you could muster the courtesy of editing your posts when you remove the files.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 4, 2013)

Revson @ Mon Nov 04 said:


> ProtectedRights @ Tue Oct 29 said:
> 
> 
> > However I can't access any of re-peats demos. Can anybody else?
> ...



Why would you care now that you've decided never to click on any links? Just curious...


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## jleckie (Nov 4, 2013)

That is part of Re-Peats charm. Stay alert - keep vigilant. Click fast.

You WILL be rewarded.


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## gregjazz (Nov 4, 2013)

re-peat @ Mon Oct 28 said:


> justintonation @ Tue Oct 29 said:
> 
> 
> > The OT rosewood isn't very good to my ears though. The tone is pretty bad but especially the way it behaves sounds like a lot goes wrong.
> ...


You're right--there's a weird swelling in this MP3 that *isn't* how Evolution Rosewood Grand is supposed to behave at all. I'll have to run the MIDI file through the piano on my system to see if I can replicate the problem.

In the meantime, you might try reducing the damper resonance to see if that alleviates the issue.


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## Revson (Nov 4, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Tue Nov 05 said:


> Revson @ Mon Nov 04 said:
> 
> 
> > ProtectedRights @ Tue Oct 29 said:
> ...



I might never walk on your street, but would still wish people not throw litter there. Public decorum, common good sort of thing.


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## re-peat (Nov 5, 2013)

Revson,

Let me get this straight. I prepared and posted four different audio-examples ― did you? ― (some of which took a considerable amount of time and effort to get them just the way I wanted them), even went to the trouble of diving into my record collection to dig up a real version of the piece under advisement for comparison purposes ― did you? ―, I also participated in the thread in what I hope was not an entirely unhelpful way ― did you? ― and then continued the discussion privately with ProtectedRights (the conversation is still very much alive, the last exchange happening earlier today) which included providing additional audio-examples to illustrate a few specific issues which weren't adressed in the thread itself ...

… and here you are, _whining about *my* lack of courtesy and decorum_???

Strange world.

_


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## ProtectedRights (Nov 5, 2013)

Yeah, dead links to software, audio examples, etc. is just normal everyday business in forums especially when people provide private files. I also link dropbox stuff and delete it after a while without going to all the posts and removing the links. 

And though re-peats links really have a rather short half-life, there is nothing to complain about. In fact it is quite impertinent to complain.

I can only hope that posts like Revsons don't make people like re-peat stop posting links/files altogether.


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## Stephen Rees (Nov 5, 2013)

jleckie @ Tue Nov 05 said:


> That is part of Re-Peats charm. Stay alert - keep vigilant. Click fast.
> 
> You WILL be rewarded.



Ha ha so true!

Whenever I miss one of re-peat's brilliant examples I never begrudge the fact he has decided to take them down. I blame myself for missing them.


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## gregjazz (Nov 5, 2013)

Here's another mixdown of the MIDI file with Evolution Rosewood Grand:

http://www.gregjazz.com/download/Barcarolle_26.mp3

And here's the preset (no external effects or processing was used) used:

http://www.gregjazz.com/download/Barcarolle_26.nka

Just a note--if the hammer noises and damper pedal noises are too loud in this example, you have control over their volume from Evolution Rosewood Grand's interface.


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## ProtectedRights (Nov 5, 2013)

@gregjazz:

Thanks for posting these. Yeah the pretty dominant sustain pedal release sound caught my attention as well. I would definitely damp that a little.


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## HardyP (Nov 5, 2013)

gregjazz @ 2013-11-05 said:


> You're right--there's a weird swelling in this MP3 that *isn't* how Evolution Rosewood Grand is supposed to behave at all. I'll have to run the MIDI file through the piano on my system to see if I can replicate the problem.


Hi Greg, do you mean it should´t sound like that with the initial parameter settings when opening ERG?! Then maybe we should find out, what´s wrong with my installation… 
I mean, I also think an "initial setting" should be a good starter for common purposes, but the actual one (at least for me/on my installation) is far from that.


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## gregjazz (Nov 5, 2013)

HardyP @ Tue Nov 05 said:


> Hi Greg, do you mean it should´t sound like that with the initial parameter settings when opening ERG?! Then maybe we should find out, what´s wrong with my installation…
> I mean, I also think an "initial setting" should be a good starter for common purposes, but the actual one (at least for me/on my installation) is far from that.


Yeah, I think something is going on--I'm going to take a look at the script and damper impulse to see if I can figure it out. I'm not getting that swelling effect on my system, and it isn't intentional.

The starting preset is just the mic mix at 50/50, all the effects off, and the effect volumes and damper resonance at their default settings.

Of course, you'd need to use different tonal settings based on whether you're after a jazz, pop/rock, or classical piano tone, but I could make it start on an actual preset rather than just the "initialized" settings.


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## ProtectedRights (Jan 2, 2014)

Reviving this thread with my new purchase, the Sampletekk White Grand:

http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/33470365/Pianoteq%20Demo%20Faure%20WG.mp3 (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3347 ... e%20WG.mp3)

Again the problem is that throwing a midi against a library does not work out well because to do it right, you would have to tune in a custom velocity curve. Anyway this is just another sound you guys can compare.


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