# How many tracks in your orchestral template?



## bluejay (Aug 3, 2007)

I've finally got my DAW at the level I want it so I'm beginning to build a few different orchestral templates (regular orchestra, intimate orchestra, blockbuster orchestra, etc).

I was just wondering if anyone would care to share how many tracks they use in their templates. The only figure I have is from a tutorial by Marten Spruujit (sp?) where he mentions using I think over 350 tracks.

I'm currently using K2 in C4 and no Vienna VIs, just the VSL samples. I'm trying to keep each section down to one instance of Kontakt (i.e. 16 tracks) and I'm rapidly realising that this is not going to happen! I'm now hoping I can keep it down to 2 instances per section and then a last instance for miscellaneous articulations.

As always, all advice here is very welcome!


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## nikolas (Aug 3, 2007)

If you're using VSL, I don't think I can help really, but with EWQL Gold I am usually at around 50 +-10 , depending on the project... When RAM is insuficcient, I just start bouncing, and in the end, I always bounce since I love mixing in audio... (I'm weird, yes I know)


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## Christian Marcussen (Aug 4, 2007)

150 or so - but that's with Vienna Instruments. Before that (where each articulation had it's own track) I was way over 300.


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## Jaap (Aug 4, 2007)

Think I have around 30 till 35 staves in Finale 2007 with instruments in most of my templates and I use layers (4 layers possible) to assign the articulations. For some extensive scores I need to make 2 till 5 stave with up to 4 layers each staves to get the stuff done. So in total that gives me more or less 120 till 150 tracks.


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## rgames (Aug 6, 2007)

I've actually gotten away from templates since getting Cubase 4 and the VSL VI. Cubase 4 has a neat "Track Presets" feature that lets you store individual or group track configurations. So I have one track preset for basic section strings, one for additional section strings (chamber/appassionata), one for solo strings, one for solo winds, one for section winds, etc.

When I start a project, I just pick the presets that I need and Cubase loads up all the VI's with appropriate EQ, levels, etc. Of course, this only works for one machine... I can get about 75% of what I need before I have to start bouncing tracks (VI SE only runs on a single machine, very lame...), then I load up the other track presets. I keep all of my perc/choir/ethnic on a second machine.

The total number of tracks, though, varies with the project. My "basic" orchestral setup is probably 35 - 45 tracks, but I've had as many as 60, I think. I also did a score for the 48 Hour Film Festival a couple weeks ago and only had about 10 tracks (strings/woodwinds/perc).

I think of it this way - there are three families of instruments, each with a soprano, alto, tenor, and bass voice (roughly). So that's twelve different voices. Say each voice has three variants (e.g. standard, appassionata, chamber strings, solo, section, etc.) and you get 36 tracks. Then add perc and misc additional instruments (maybe another 5 - 10) and you're up around 40 - 45 tracks.

rgames


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## handz (Aug 6, 2007)

Im using about 70 - 80 tracks with EW GOLD XP.
But when I could use more RAM I will use many more tracks....


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## VonRichter (Aug 7, 2007)

Using my top-secret custom programming, I have one track per instrument, except for a few extra string things.


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## Hannes_F (Aug 7, 2007)

bluejay @ Fri Aug 03 said:


> I was just wondering if anyone would care to share how many tracks they use in their templates.



What sort of tracks do you mean - midi tracks, folders, audio bounces, busses, effect channels ...?

All together 210 here.


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## bluejay (Aug 7, 2007)

Hi guys and thanks for the replies. Very interesting!

Hannes, I'm really only interested in MIDI tracks here (for the moment, at least).

For my main orchestral template I guess I'm using around 80 tracks (5 instances of K2).

I generally only use 2 FX tracks for 'verbs.


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## Fernando Warez (Aug 7, 2007)

Hannes_F @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> bluejay @ Fri Aug 03 said:
> 
> 
> > I was just wondering if anyone would care to share how many tracks they use in their templates.
> ...



I think what he means is all his articulation are assign to one midi track. That's how I'm building my templates using a mix of instrument banks and large instrument with with an articulation assign to it's own group. There's no need for tones of tracks anymore. And you can have as many articulations as you want that way too.


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## nikolas (Aug 7, 2007)

Ok!

Whoops! Hold on!

I don't use templates as well! I just load up the instruments and articulations I need. I'm just not THAT organised, or pressed for time, with tight deadlines and the such.

So the 50 +-10 I mentioned are actual articulations I'm using at the project.


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## Krakatau (Sep 30, 2007)

midphase @ 7th August 2007 said:


> For me it's 0.
> 
> What I mean is that I don't use a template, I simply pull up the instruments as I need them. Many say that this disrupts the creative flow, but honestly for me it doesn't. My creative flow happens primarily on a single piano sound or an ensemble string patch which is how I like to compose. Everything else is just the icing on the cake, and I don't mind having to wait a few extra seconds before putting that icing.



Somehow i agree with this, but it is needed to say by my side that there is an important part of my work (well when i'm seriously commited in it) that lies in the audio experimentation, and not always directly related to composition

So to say that, for EVERY composition or arrangement i've made actually , i ALWAYS create a dedicated template, every time, to force myself to be trained to grab to the technical aspect related to audio 
on that point : on the actually only published collection of composition of mine ( down my sig), i had to recreate a dedicated signal routing for every sound modules to compensate the lack of mixing table, for instance

Of course, you may be right to doubt of the interest of such a hassle, but the is so much interesting new musical technologies to my taste, nearly everyday, that i always need to see what can be done of it, especially what can be done that wasn't expected in such a way that this new technique does not IMPOSE it sound, that then is a bit fraudulently presented a a new musical style !

Consider this as the credo of a desperately passionnate *amateur*


...back to the topic, i would say, all kind of track cumulated, around 70 at the most, (whish i founded enormous until today :oops: )

All the best, folks !


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## Angel (Oct 1, 2007)

50-60... but 9.5" :mrgreen:


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## Christian Marcussen (Oct 1, 2007)

Folmann @ Mon Oct 01 said:


> 600.



Holy fucking shit :D 

I thought I had many. What sequencer do you use, and do you also experience slow VST load times when you have your template open?


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## Daryl (Oct 1, 2007)

I used to have around 200-250, but these days with Vienna VI it is around 35 (I think). I also have a dummy loading workaround, which means that I can leave my Template loaded and change projects with only around 30-40 seconds down time.

All this is due for revue with Vienna Ensemble and 64bit computing only a month away, but for now this set-up works best for me.

D


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## Christian Marcussen (Oct 1, 2007)

Daryl - how to you manage percussion?


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## Daryl (Oct 1, 2007)

Christian Marcussen @ Mon Oct 01 said:


> Daryl - how to you manage percussion?


One track for each instrument

D


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## re-peat (Oct 1, 2007)

None whatsoever, just like Midphase and for the exact same reasons as well. I will always build my virtual orchestra as I go, depending on the music I'm working on and the type of sounds it needs.
As it happens, I only have one 'autoload' template in Logic and it's a completely empty one (no instruments or fx pre-loaded, I mean).

There's a great advantage to not using a template - well, there's two in fact: (1) you pay much more attention to the sounds you decide to use and (2) the song-file is only as heavy as it needs to be.

_


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## Daryl (Oct 1, 2007)

I think that a template is a necessity if you are doing a lot of orchestral work. It would take me 2-3 minutes to build each keyswitch instrument, and I'm not about to go through that every time I want to start a new track.

However, if most of your work uses far fewer instruments, then I can see that loading a template would be a waste of time.

D


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## Christian Marcussen (Oct 1, 2007)

Alright Daryl.. I'm just amazed you can keep your entire template down to 35 then 

But I guess I could too if I was a bit more selective :D


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## re-peat (Oct 1, 2007)

Daryl,

You can save your custom-built multi's, can't you? And in Logic, you can even save them as 'channel strip'-settings, which means that, with one click of a button, some fairly intricate (or not so intricate) configurations can be recalled very easily. (I suppose other hosts have similar features.)

And, just curious: how long does it take for that template file, with all the imbedded instruments, to load?

And another thing: you never find that some melodies are better served with lead violins from, say, EastWest when, at other times, it's much more effective to use the Appasionatas? Or that the SonicImplants spiccatos are much better suited to a particular phrase than the Vienna's? Surely, you don't have all these resource-hungry choices available in one template?

Yes, working with no template will often involve some repetitious work (and the inherent loss of time), but at least you end up working with what you actually need and with what works best.

_


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## Daryl (Oct 1, 2007)

Christian Marcussen @ Mon Oct 01 said:


> Alright Daryl.. I'm just amazed you can keep your entire template down to 35 then
> 
> But I guess I could too if I was a bit more selective :D


OK, I've checked and it's actually 36 tracks. Here is what I use:

Piccolo x1
Flute x2
Oboe x2
Clarinet x2
Bassoon x2

Horns x2
Trumpets x2
Trombones x2
Bass Trombone
Tuba

Timps
Piatti
Bass drum

Harp
Piano

Violin 1 x3
Violin 2 x3 
Viola x3
Cello x3
Bass x2

I add others ass necessary.

D


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## Christian Marcussen (Oct 1, 2007)

Ah ok D... I would have a hard time doing without snares and cymbals in my template. 

But I'm inspired still... Perhaps I should do some spring cleaning in my template :D


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## Daryl (Oct 1, 2007)

re-peat @ Mon Oct 01 said:


> Daryl,
> 
> You can save your custom-built multi's, can't you? And in Logic, you can even save them as 'channel strip'-settings, which means that, with one click of a button, some fairly intricate (or not so intricate) configurations can be recalled very easily. (I suppose other hosts have similar features.)
> 
> ...


I really don't want to spend time clicking to load bread and butter instruments. Sure, when I want to add extra percussion, I do this as necessary, but these instruments are quick to load and will be different for most projects.

I'm not saying that I don't have different templates. For example, a project that I did last year had 8 horns (4 each side), 4 trumpets, 4 Trombones and Tuba, Strings but no Woodwind, so my template reflected that.

I use VSL sounds and have no interest in EW or Sonic Implants (whatever they are called these days) as VSL is so flexible that I can get whatever sound I am looking for, so for me templates work very well.

My template is around 7.5GB, but can be expanded as necessary.

D


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## Daryl (Oct 1, 2007)

Christian Marcussen @ Mon Oct 01 said:


> Ah ok D... I would have a hard time doing without snares and cymbals in my template.
> 
> But I'm inspired still... Perhaps I should do some spring cleaning in my template :D


Christian, as far as I'm concerned, unless percussion is a feature in a track, it is the last resort of the incompetent. :lol: If a track doesn't work without it, percussion is only papering over the cracks. Obviously that is a generalisation, but I think that percussion is often overused, and tires the ear very quickly.

D


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## Daryl (Oct 1, 2007)

Sorry, I just realised I never answered your questions.


re-peat @ Mon Oct 01 said:


> And, just curious: how long does it take for that template file, with all the imbedded instruments, to load?


Around 10-12 minutes; I've never really timed it, as I only do it once a day, usually whilst making a cup of coffee!!



re-peat @ Mon Oct 01 said:


> Surely, you don't have all these resource-hungry choices available in one template?


Yes, 95% of what I will need is available all at the same time.



re-peat @ Mon Oct 01 said:


> Yes, working with no template will often involve some repetitious work (and the inherent loss of time), but at least you end up working with what you actually need and with what works best.


I always work with what I need. If I don't need it, I hide it.

D


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## re-peat (Oct 1, 2007)

Daryl,

Thanks for the answers! You're right, of course, to stick with a set-up that works for you. and your reasons for doing what you do make much sense. I'm more of a fickle painter, preferring to start with a blank canvas and mixing paints from different brands everytime I start a new piece.

By the way, I agree entirely with what you said about percussion. (In a conventional (mock-)orchestral context of course.)

_


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## Daryl (Oct 1, 2007)

re-peat @ Mon Oct 01 said:


> Daryl,
> 
> Thanks for the answers! You're right, of course, to stick with a set-up that works for you. and your reasons for doing what you do make much sense. I'm more of a fickle painter, preferring to start with a blank canvas and mixing paints from different brands everytime I start a new piece.
> 
> ...


Don't get me wrong, I also start from a blank canvas, but I prefer to tò÷6   bù
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## bluejay (Oct 1, 2007)

I'm still trying to run everything off one PC (when will I learn?)

Anyway, my template didn't take long to overwhelm my PC so I'm stripping it down a little.

Also, I've recently bought WIVI and this seriously frees up resources! The entire brass section loads into <100MB of RAM!

I wasn't using instrument banks before so I've started using them now and I can certainly get more efficiency out of that as well.

So, as much fun as my orchestral blockbuster template was, it's quickly become redundant.


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## PolarBear (Oct 1, 2007)

I would love having a template. However my computer restricts that and I find myself needing every MB I can get for a track, so I find myself always loading the thing that the piece demands... As I'm not too fond of the idea of bouncing down this will limit sometimes my palette even more down to less instruments. So I get 20-30 tracks usually... with a completed piece of music that is. I should buy a new computer soon and make my current onò÷‡   c÷‡   c÷‡   c÷‡   c÷‡   c÷‡   c÷‡   c÷‡   c÷‡


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