# Hans Zimmer and the "Hideous thing that happens with electric guitars"



## Electric Lion (Jun 20, 2020)

Hi everyone. Long time lurker first time poster here. Recently I was watching this video on the score for the movie Inception where Hans says "There's a sort of hideous thing that happens when you have guitars and orchestra." I was wondering if anyone might have any idea what he meant by this? As a young composer I am interested in using electric guitars in some of my scores but want to make sure I am aware of the problems and limitations inherent in the instrument and I am not unconsciously making some "hideous" mistakes.

Thanks
-Dan

@2:22


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## Technostica (Jun 20, 2020)

There's a very simple solution to this; don't use orchestras.


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## fish_hoof (Jun 20, 2020)

Not sure what he means by hideous mistakes... For me, I write a ton of guitar and orchestra together. One thing to definitely be aware of is guitars take up the same EQ space as strings. So.... it has potential to sound like mud or a wash if things aren't EQ'd right, arranged right, etc. 

I'm still always learning. What Hans calls Hideous Mistakes probably actually ends up being gold. For me... it really is a hideous mistake that sounds like junk lol.


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## barteredbride (Jun 20, 2020)

Electric Lion said:


> Hi everyone. Long time lurker first time poster here. Recently I was watching this video on the score for the movie Inception where Hans says "There's a sort of hideous thing that happens when you have guitars and orchestra." I was wondering if anyone might have any idea what he meant by this? As a young composer I am interested in using electric guitars in some of my scores but want to make sure I am aware of the problems and limitations inherent in the instrument and I am not unconsciously making some "hideous" mistakes.
> 
> Thanks
> -Dan
> ...




Just watched the clip of the video...

Hire Air Lyndhurst with 6 bass trombones, 6 tenor trombones, 4 tubas in the middle and 6 horns in the gallery...oh, and we need someone to play guitar as well. Let´s get Johnny Marr from The Smiths.


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## dgburns (Jun 20, 2020)

I think I understand what he means, maybe. Guitars come from a different electrified sonic space, and orchestra is really about acoustic instruments in a room. For me anyway, as soon as you put guitar in with orchestra, the guitar just changes the balance, and it’s no longer an orchestral thing, it becomes a hybrid kinda thing.

But then again, not sure I’d call it hideous ? Hans can be extravagant with his descriptives, and unless you were there in the room, you’d really have no idea what the hell they were trying to pull off.

Personally, really heavy lo strung guitars work for me with orchestra, so what the hell do I know.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 20, 2020)

The only thing I can think is that amped electric guitars take up a lot of room frequency-wise. Lots of those very same frequencies in orchestral sections as well.


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## Rory (Jun 20, 2020)

Electric Lion said:


> Hans says "There's a sort of hideous thing that happens when you have guitars and orchestra."



Someone forgot to tell Joaquín Rodrigo


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## davetbass (Jun 20, 2020)

I'm guessing tuning or the contrast between the hacking of most guitar players and the finesse of an orchestra. I love guitar and grew up with metal but when even when Yngwie Malmsteen played with an orchestra, It didn't seem right. An overdriven guitar takes up so much sonic space. I do like a simple high string part backing metal.


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## Traz (Jun 20, 2020)

I've always kind of loved orchestral music mixed in with a band ever since I was really young after hearing Metallica's S&M live record. I've wanted to do something like that ever since and have always thought the sound of electric guitars with an orchestra sounded awesome.


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## KEM (Jun 20, 2020)

It’s really just a balancing act, any time you put electric guitars on something it kind of just consumes everything else and takes all the focus away from the orchestra. As a player myself I only really use guitars as pads to support the orchestra, you don’t really wanna have full on rhythm tones trying to compete with everything else.


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## visiblenoise (Jun 20, 2020)

I'm wondering if he's using 'hideous' in an almost good sense? I can imagine him using the word positively in a cheeky sort of way. Like "gnarly, dude!" I've only ever heard him talk in interviews but it seems like something he'd do.

Especially when you consider that in his live concerts, he's got like two or three electric guitarists with a little orchestra going on.


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## Geoff Moore (Jun 21, 2020)

^




https://nerdist.com/article/ketchup-ice-cream-ed-sheeran/


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## telecode101 (Jun 21, 2020)

..


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## nolotrippen (Jun 21, 2020)

But Kakzoos are OK Hans?


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 21, 2020)

visiblenoise said:


> I'm wondering if he's using 'hideous' in an almost good sense?


Yeah, that's how I read it too. As in it "shouldn't work but by jolly it does."
Or maybe a tongue in cheek way of saying it wouldn't be the "done thing to do" but he did it anyway.


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## Peter Williams (Jun 21, 2020)

Just an offhand, subjective statement I think. Rock guitar has characteristics that can substitute for whole orchestral sections and guitar distortion and sustain effects can sound unnatural (out of place) in an orchestral setting. And the pitch bends of rock guitar playing clash with the homogeneous tonality that most orchestras try to achieve. These characteristics can all be assets, used in doubling with other instruments or groups, taking melodies into quarter tone territory and more, and changing the spatial character of the music intentionally. Good jazz articulations can easily replace a piano line. There are so many possibilities.


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## ed buller (Jun 21, 2020)

Bad guitar orchestra duet:



best

ed


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## jules (Jun 21, 2020)

@Electric Lion : pick any random mainstream movie from the early 90s and you'll see what he means... (look the post above).


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## Markus Kohlprath (Jun 21, 2020)

While I agree that distorted guitars feel often out of place in an orchestral environment I think it's a whole different story with clean guitars - acoustic and electric. It can sound very well and fresh and is imo an underused device. Maybe because the instrument is not very well known to traditional orchestrators and it is very hard to write for guitar without being a pretty good player. And maybe also the possibilities of amplification are not as seriously considered as they could be.


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## marius_dm (Jun 21, 2020)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Ketchup goes on fries or sandwiches, not ice cream.
> 
> Though a few gourmet chefs at trendy costal-region restaurants get fancy and mix unlikely flavors, for those into that sort of ‘experience’.


Funny, I was going to use the same analogy, lol. Putting a distorted electric guitar on top of nicely arranged orchestral sections is like going to a specialty $500-a-plate restaurant and slathering ketchup all over it. It might work sometimes though depending on the arrangement.


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## Geoff Moore (Jun 21, 2020)

marius_dm said:


> ...going to a specialty $500-a-plate restaurant and slathering ketchup all over it.


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## Dave Connor (Jun 21, 2020)

Hans is like the rest of us with his preferences and dislikes due to experience. Does that mean it’s a blanket statement and he doesn’t like the guitar work in orchestral context such as the early Bond films or Morricone films? Or even the Beatles? One of the featured artists in his own symphonic band is a guitar player (and a great one.) So he’s making a comment on something that *can* happen with guitars and orchestra which obviously shouldn’t be considered a prohibitive statement that applies in every case.


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## Peter Williams (Jun 21, 2020)

I saw a rather funny video of a symphonic composition featuring electric guitar (the composer's name was Tuur). The video was taken from the stage, showing the audience. One very elderly woman in the front row, seated in front of the guitar soloist, sat grudgingly with fingers pressed firmly into both ears. An interesting piece of music and a fine testament to this issue.


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## Tim_Wells (Jun 21, 2020)

Mannheim Steamroller


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## Tim_Wells (Jun 21, 2020)

It all comes down to subjectivity and personal taste. I agree with many of the observations made so far, especially regarding the sonic space distorted electric guitars occupy verses an Orchestra. There's definitely a clash to my ears. 

To me, it seems to work better when Orchestral instruments are used to enhance a pop-tune rather than other way around.


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## MartinH. (Jun 21, 2020)

Haven't read the whole thread, sorry if it has been mentioned before. Didn't Hans use distorted electric guitars on the Call of Duty Mordern Warfare 2 soundtrack? Or did he just write the theme melodies for that and Lorne Balfe did the rest? Check this out at 1:03:50


If I'm hearing right there's a guitar burried in the mix there with some highpass filtering, and sonically it kind of takes the role of a snare drum?! I think that works quite well with the orchestra. 

COD:MW2 is one of my favorite hybrid soundtracks.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jun 21, 2020)

The magnificent sound of tight distorted guitars should not be dilluted by an orchestra. I've never heard it sound good.


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## vgamer1982 (Jun 21, 2020)

Part of the reason most scores with distorted electric guitars don't work quite as well as is hoped, is because very rarely do people take the time to record them properly, either classical engineers trying to do something they're not good at, or thin DI'd stuff rammed thru too many plugins because people seem to think that a session without 100 plugins in it isn't "finished". Or they're mixed with other stuff that frequency masks so that only the distortion and none of the fundamental gets through. 

But _usually_ the main issue is that people who aren't guitarists *double* guitars with orch or vice versa, and generally that's pretty weak, because all you're doing is sharing headroom so that _both_ elements ending up sounding small...and the differing natural envelopes of the two sounds just turn everything into mush in terms of transients. 

Or you get mixes where the guitars are bone dry and the orch is hugely wet and it just sounds like a bad mash-up. But 9 times out of 10 it's because the composer wasn't a guitarist, got a player in, didn't know what to tell them to do, and just gave them the chords and they doubled stuff already there with a crappy production chain set up in 10 minutes as opposed to the proper amp guitar sounds on records which take HOURS to set up and dial in.

Then an actual rock track comes on as a needle drop and you realize what they're meant to sound like.

....but "electric guitar" ranges to probably more sounds than could be sensibly listed, it's literally millions of tones, so any statement that they "don't work" with orchestra is obviously absurd on its face.


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## davetbass (Jun 21, 2020)

Yngwie Malmsteen is one of my favorite guitarists and has discussed being influenced by violin playing, I really wanted to like this, but think the problem here is tuning, guitarists sometimes squeeze notes a little sharp and the most common vibrato techniques are between the fretted note and up. When he is just with a bass keyboards and drums it's great, but this just doesn't seem to work (although he looks awesome in a super villain kind of way, lol)


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## davetbass (Jun 21, 2020)

Dave Connor said:


> Hans is like the rest of us with his preferences and dislikes due to experience. Does that mean it’s a blanket statement and he doesn’t like the guitar work in orchestral context such as the early Bond films or Morricone films? Or even the Beatles? One of the featured artists in his own symphonic band is a guitar player (and a great one.) So he’s making a comment on something that *can* happen with guitars and orchestra which obviously shouldn’t be considered a prohibitive statement that applies in every case.



Guthrie Govan, considered one of the technically most advanced guitarists in the (short) history of the electric and very aware of intonation and dynamics. I think the problem might be that a lot of guitarists just don't listen, lol. I say this as a bitter bass player but a lot of lead guitarists are like wind up dolls, they just start running up and down their patterns. Single note lines in the movies like you mentioned are awesome though.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jun 21, 2020)

vgamer1982 said:


> Part of the reason most scores with distorted electric guitars don't work quite as well as is hoped, is because very rarely do people take the time to record them properly, either classical engineers trying to do something they're not good at, or thin DI'd stuff rammed thru too many plugins because people seem to think that a session without 100 plugins in it isn't "finished". Or they're mixed with other stuff that frequency masks so that only the distortion and none of the fundamental gets through.



Absolute fact. I can't think of one film soundtrack which incorporated heavy electric guitars where they didn't sound ridiculous and amateurish. You can very much tell that it's because it's been done by someone who normally doesn't do any of that stuff.


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## Electric Lion (Jun 26, 2020)

Thanks for the replies everyone! You've given me a lot to think about. Both good and bad.

I agree with almost everything that's been brought up. I think a lot of the issues some of you have though have to do with the actual written parts themselves and not the guitar as an instrument in general. The 90's movie scores and the Malmsteen concerto all strike me as bad writing that places the guitar too much in the foreground and doesn't treat it the way you would treat any other orchestral instrument. In my opinion the guitars should be treated as just another section that can blend and compliment textures or contrast with them.

As for recording quality, you definitely have to record them properly (as well as everything else). In the 90's movie example with Keanu Reeves it seemed like not only was the guitar recorded badly but even the orchestra sounded small and harsh.

On the guitar taking up a huge amount of sonic real estate, that is true but can be a strength if used right. An electric guitar can be a go-to instrument for filling out a thin texture or adding body or depth to a part. I would also implore you to consider the possibilities available to guitarist for thinning out their sounds. My guitar has both coil-tap and phase reversal options which significantly thin out the tone. Perfect for layering "colour guitar" parts that don't take up a lot of frequency space. Combined with EQ the possibilities are virtually endless for fitting a guitar into even the densest of mixes.

When I write for guitars I have found a lot of success using them both for textural/effects/ambient stuff but also playing certain lines in orchestral tuttis, whether doubling bass lines, playing power chords to reinforce the bottom end, playing octaves along with the horns or celli, doubling the melody in violins or trumpets, and even doubling woodwind trills and fingered tremolos with tapped arpeggios. Things like bends, pinch harmonics, and dive-bombs can really pop out of a "traditional" texture and let you know what you're listening to is new and modern (in an admittedly sci-fi way)

I come from a progressive rock and electronic background but also have a huge interest in classical music from the late 19th and 20th centuries so all these thing come naturally to me and I have never really seen the problem with them. I guess what informs our tastes is what makes us different. I'm glad to see the diversity of opinions on the subject and the lack of consensus on the existence of a "hideous" problem that consumes all orchestral guitar writing.

Thanks.
-Dan


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## J-M (Jun 26, 2020)

davetbass said:


> Guthrie Govan, considered one of the technically most advanced guitarists in the (short) history of the electric and very aware of intonation and dynamics. I think the problem might be that a lot of guitarists just don't listen, lol. I say this as a bitter bass player but a lot of lead guitarists are like wind up dolls, they just start running up and down their patterns. Single note lines in the movies like you mentioned are awesome though.



As a guitar player I can confirm that most lead guitar players are a bit..."special".


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## J-M (Jun 26, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> Haven't read the whole thread, sorry if it has been mentioned before. Didn't Hans use distorted electric guitars on the Call of Duty Mordern Warfare 2 soundtrack? Or did he just write the theme melodies for that and Lorne Balfe did the rest? Check this out at 1:03:50
> 
> 
> If I'm hearing right there's a guitar burried in the mix there with some highpass filtering, and sonically it kind of takes the role of a snare drum?! I think that works quite well with the orchestra.
> ...




I think Hans did the main theme with Lorne and Lorne did the rest (I could be wrong though).


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## Rex282 (Jun 26, 2020)

davetbass said:


> Yngwie Malmsteen is one of my favorite guitarists and has discussed being influenced by violin playing, I really wanted to like this, but think the problem here is tuning, guitarists sometimes squeeze notes a little sharp and the most common vibrato techniques are between the fretted note and up. When he is just with a bass keyboards and drums it's great, but this just doesn't seem to work (although he looks awesome in a super villain kind of way, lol)



Yngwie is a good rock guitarist however he is not even close to being a composer on the level of magnitude of JS Bach or even Paganini or hell any of the great composers.His Barock compositions especially with a symphony orchestra show this great lack.It doesn't work because it's distorted guitar it doesnt work because his reach exceeds his grasp.


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## Rex282 (Jun 26, 2020)

Electric Lion said:


> Thanks for the replies everyone! You've given me a lot to think about. Both good and bad.
> 
> ......The 90's movie scores and the Malmsteen concerto all strike me as bad writing that places the guitar too much in the foreground and doesn't treat it the way you would treat any other orchestral instrument. In my opinion the guitars should be treated as just another section that can blend and compliment textures or contrast with them..........



Precisely...the guitar can cover the range of a string section yet is almost always used as a only a solo instrument.The trick would be to get 4-16(or however many ) very competent electric guitarist that could play as a section.

IMO it is very possible to do that on your own because as mentioned the guitar can sound even more different than string instruments(LP and Strat ,single double coil PU,amps ,speakers,FX etc etc).I see them being more effective as a section than solo instruments even though it can be that also.The possibilities are limitless yet their main use in an orchestral setting has been very limited and almost always just sounds goofy....excellent dude!!


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## jononotbono (Jun 26, 2020)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Absolute fact. I can't think of one film soundtrack which incorporated heavy electric guitars where they didn't sound ridiculous and amateurish.



The Rock. Now that’s a film and has some excellent Guitar in there.


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## davetbass (Jun 26, 2020)

Rex282 said:


> Precisely...the guitar can cover the range of a string section yet is almost always used as a only a solo instrument.The trick would be to get 4-16(or however many ) very competent electric guitarist that could play as a section.
> 
> IMO it is very possible to do that on your own because as mentioned the guitar can sound even more different than string instruments(LP and Strat ,single double coil PU,amps ,speakers,FX etc etc).I see them being more effective as a section than solo instruments even though it can be that also.The possibilities are limitless yet their main use in an orchestral setting has been very limited and almost always just sounds goofy....excellent dude!!



I see what you mean, you could have a Les Paul player with a lot of gain sit with the strings, a tele player sit with the brass and a strat with one of the "hollow" pickup settings sit with the woodwinds. Classic rock does have examples of kind of orchestrating electric guitars with different tones by overdubs in the studio, Hendrix Electric Ladyland and Cry of Love albums for example and Led Zeppelin and Queen


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## Rex282 (Jun 26, 2020)

davetbass said:


> I see what you mean, you could have a Les Paul player with a lot of gain sit with the strings, a tele player sit with the brass and a strat with one of the "hollow" pickup settings sit with the woodwinds. Classic rock does have examples of kind of orchestrating electric guitars with different tones by overdubs in the studio, Hendrix Electric Ladyland and Cry of Love albums for example and Led Zeppelin and Queen



Brian Mays guitar orchestra is close however what I mean is a full section like an orchestra not just a few quitars in sections.One guitar player can do it all(like Brian) in a recording as full sections like:

1st guitar(1st violins)=16 guitars
2nd guitar(2nd violins)=14 guitars
3rd guitars(violas)=10 guitars
4th guitars=(cello)=8 guitars(drop B tuning)
5th guitars(double bass)=4 guitars( 8 string )

one player could play all the parts by varying the timbre by guitars ,PU ,amps ,speaker cabs.

To me some of the reasons electric guitar usually doesn't fit is it's often some Metal chugging out power chords or one guitar playing like a violin it just"grates"(maybe thats what Hans meant) where as guitars playing with the orchetsra as a section would blend better.It seems to get down to an orchestration issue and how its handled(which is most times ham handed).

What makes it much easier (after you work at it)for recording with one player is getting the articulations(especially the vibratos) matched up.Orchestra players are very deft at this where guitar players are notoriously bad listeners to anyone but themselves.You become hyper aware of how you are playing when you play as a section because it can sound really bad if you don't.However after a while it is easy because you know how it is supposed to sound.

I'm a bit surprised I haven't heard it yet(maybe it exists I just haven't heard it)I'm working at it by using different guitars( I have a shitload ) diferent speakers and cabs( I have a shitload ) and amps(I'm working on it ...hahahah) and re-amping.

It's quite fun working on it but it has been taking a while because i want to get it dialed in(i'm being super picky)...then I can quit buying all those string library's and takes weeks recording guitar parts..hahahah(ok maybe not) !!!


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## visiblenoise (Jun 27, 2020)

I still think Hans was being cheeky in using the word "hideous." He said it, then didn't elaborate and basically continued talking about getting guitar into the score as if he never said anything of the sort at all. Anyway, there are too many examples of guitars working with orchestra, and hardly an absence of examples in which he himself has done it.

Here's one of my favorite examples of guitar working with orchestra, though it's more the other way around since it's a metal band. Obviously the orchestra can't do everything it would normally do on its own, and neither can the guitars/bass, but such is orchestration.



Even if you don't dig metal, I think it's an example of good mix and/or arrangement.


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## GtrString (Jun 27, 2020)

Guitars can occupy wall street, but also a lot of frequencies in the mix, and the last thing is sort of hideous in a soundtrack (the first thing is great!). Its not about the guitars only, so a lot of constraint and thought is required to make guitars work in context. Clean, high headroom, supportive, tucked well into the mix can be key, if not used in a leading role.

In the Zimmer documentary Guthrie Govan was shown to follow some of the violin parts, like so many in the orchestra doing doubling duties. The great thing is that guitars can be used in many different ways, so it is a highly versatile instrument, both in hideous and beautiful roles..


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