# What Courses Have You Purchased For Your Education?



## ChrisSiuMusic

Hi all, 

I have a simple question for you today. When it comes to learning how to play/read music, music production, orchestration, arranging, mixing, etc., what online courses have you purchased on these topics? 

One the one hand, I'd love to know what did you enjoyed most about these courses, and learned exactly what you wanted? On the other hand, what could be improved upon? What were you looking for in the course that didn't entirely deliver? 

Thanks for your time.


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## Land of Missing Parts

I suspect a tutorial on mixing libraries would do well, don't you think?


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## ChrisSiuMusic

Land of Missing Parts said:


> I suspect a tutorial on mixing libraries would do well, don't you think?


We could definitely use more of those.


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## d.healey

All of Mike Verta's masterclasses, and the three ScoreClub orchestrating the line classes


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## JohnG

Hi Chris,

The cheapest education I've bought is John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith, and early 20th century scores (Ravel, Stravinsky, Debussy). Some of those are only $12, some are more like $60.

Even if your ability to read music is in the "not so hot" category, you can still learn a lot by looking at very brief -- two-to-four-bar -- passages that you like. You don't have to do what I hear Liszt did, and copy out all of Beethoven's symphonic scores as a teenager. (I mean, hats off if you have the patience, but a few bars here and there with Ravel or JW will go a huge long way.)

If you can't read music at all, you can still write stuff by ear but it's a Herculean effort to juggle an orchestra without _any_ notation or traditional knowledge. If you can't read music at all, unless you have an orchestrator at your elbow, I don't see how anyone could get to a top level just by ear. Why? There are a lot of tricks that "just work," and that, given the press of time we have when writing to schedule, provide indispensable shortcuts. I know there are exceptions, some great ones, but then again, talent comes into it as well, and we don't all get the same dollop of that.

To return to your original question, Junkie XL offers free tutorials that are quite specific -- costs nothing and there are all kinds of helpful tips in there. He seems like a super-nice fellow; he certainly is generous to take the time to make them.

Kind regards,

John


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## dzilizzi

I am getting started and just a hobbyist with more money than time. I like Mike Verta's courses. But they are usually 5 hours long and I rarely can sit through the whole thing at one go. 

I have Udemy courses. They are split up nicely, but the basics can be very boring. Also, I really want to watch some of them when I can take notes or have my music computer in front of me. The biggest problem for me with learning is I need to see how it is done and either write it down or do it myself right away or I will forget it. 

I liked PureMix (?) courses because they take you through stuff and explain it well. They do have mixing courses but they are geared towards pop/rock. And they give you the stems so you can work along with them. They are just a little pricey for me for an annual membership.


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## ChrisSiuMusic

JohnG said:


> Hi Chris,
> 
> The cheapest education I've bought is John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith, and early 20th century scores (Ravel, Stravinsky, Debussy). Some of those are only $12, some are more like $60.
> 
> Even if your ability to read music is in the "not so hot" category, you can still learn a lot by looking at very brief -- two-to-four-bar -- passages that you like. You don't have to do what I hear Liszt did, and copy out all of Beethoven's symphonic scores as a teenager. (I mean, hats off if you have the patience, but a few bars here and there with Ravel or JW will go a huge long way.)
> 
> If you can't read music at all, you can still write stuff by ear but it's a Herculean effort to juggle an orchestra without _any_ notation or traditional knowledge. If you can't read music at all, unless you have an orchestrator at your elbow, I don't see how anyone could get to a top level just by ear. Why? There are a lot of tricks that "just work," and that, given the press of time we have when writing to schedule, provide indispensable shortcuts. I know there are exceptions, some great ones, but then again, talent comes into it as well, and we don't all get the same dollop of that.
> 
> To return to your original question, Junkie XL offers free tutorials that are quite specific -- costs nothing and there are all kinds of helpful tips in there. He seems like a super-nice fellow; he certainly is generous to take the time to make them.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> John


Thanks for your input John!


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## ChrisSiuMusic

dzilizzi said:


> I am getting started and just a hobbyist with more money than time. I like Mike Verta's courses. But they are usually 5 hours long and I rarely can sit through the whole thing at one go.
> 
> I have Udemy courses. They are split up nicely, but the basics can be very boring. Also, I really want to watch some of them when I can take notes or have my music computer in front of me. The biggest problem for me with learning is I need to see how it is done and either write it down or do it myself right away or I will forget it.
> 
> I liked PureMix (?) courses because they take you through stuff and explain it well. They do have mixing courses but they are geared towards pop/rock. And they give you the stems so you can work along with them. They are just a little pricey for me for an annual membership.


Hey dzilizzi, thanks for sharing what you're purchased and what you'd like to see improved!


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## ChrisSiuMusic

d.healey said:


> All of Mike Verta's masterclasses, and the three ScoreClub orchestrating the line classes


Thanks. Any ones that stood out to you as being the best, and why? And which ones would you have liked to have seen improved upon?


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## d.healey

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> Thanks. Any ones that stood out to you as being the best, and why? And which ones would you have liked to have seen improved upon?


OTL 2 was for me the best course from ScoreClub but OTL 1 is a necessary foundation. I haven't finished OTL3 yet but so far it's great.

I learn something new from every Mike Verta class but the root of all his classes is basically the same, setup patterns, transcribe, drink whisky  I'd start with the composition and orchestration classes, then go from there to the topics that interest you. The live brass session class is a must!


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## Gerbil

If my final goal was to work with professional musicians and I was beginning, now, I'd do it the same way again. Become proficient on at least one instrument then go to a music college/uni or pay for private tuition. Nothing beats having highly experienced mentors watch over you, picking up on all those little mistakes and showing you how to correct them, or being in an environment where you're surrounded by musicians that you can badger to play through passages or explain why something will/wont work.


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## ChrisSiuMusic

Gerbil said:


> If my final goal was to work with professional musicians and I was beginning, now, I'd do it the same way again. Become proficient on at least one instrument then go to a music college/uni or pay for private tuition. Nothing beats having highly experienced mentors watch over you, picking up on all those little mistakes and showing you how to correct them, or being in an environment where you're surrounded by musicians that you can badger to play through passages or explain why something will/wont work.


Great point.


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## Ned Bouhalassa

Going to university was one of the best moves I ever made. I can't say enough good about going to school and meeting so many people.


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## PeterN

I can say something no course has yet delivered, and that is extensive midi examples on different types of midi orchestration. By that I mean theres a midi file with the video, and you can add any of your own, say, oboe, cello and so on there, on the “oboe track”, once you have opened it, and then analyse different techniques of midi orchestration this way. With a tutorial video. The person in the tutorial video could use emberton Cello, fine, you can even use Logics own cello. And I mean someone experienced in midi orchestration, and taking on everything with different woodwind harmonies to string runs. With a fuckin midi file. Sorry. Sure, you can do it by reading notes too, but this is another way, midi orchestration, and would probably find plenty customers. I just ask, why, has nobody done this yet, bcs me thinks theres money in selling orchestration course like this.


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## InLight-Tone

I tried music theory and composition in college and got NOTHING out of it. Boring, dry very little real world application. Studied "Harmony for Computer Musicians" and learned a lot but it's general theory not really orchestral based.

I also want to put in a good word for the Scoreclub courses and they are definitely applicable to film scoring and orchestration. Good stuff!


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## ChrisSiuMusic

InLight-Tone said:


> I tried music theory and composition in college and got NOTHING out of it. Boring, dry very little real world application. Studied "Harmony for Computer Musicians" and learned a lot but it's general theory not really orchestral based.
> 
> I also want to put in a good word for the Scoreclub courses and they are definitely applicable to film scoring and orchestration. Good stuff!


Thanks for sharing man!


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## ChrisSiuMusic

PeterN said:


> I can say something no course has yet delivered, and that is extensive midi examples on different types of midi orchestration. By that I mean theres a midi file with the video, and you can add any of your own, say, oboe, cello and so on there, on the “oboe track”, once you have opened it, and then analyse different techniques of midi orchestration this way. With a tutorial video. The person in the tutorial video could use emberton Cello, fine, you can even use Logics own cello. And I mean someone experienced in midi orchestration, and taking on everything with different woodwind harmonies to string runs. With a fuckin midi file. Sorry. Sure, you can do it by reading notes too, but this is another way, midi orchestration, and would probably find plenty customers. I just ask, why, has nobody done this yet, bcs me thinks theres money in selling orchestration course like this.


Great idea, thanks for sharing Peter!


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## ChrisSiuMusic

InLight-Tone said:


> I tried music theory and composition in college and got NOTHING out of it. Boring, dry very little real world application. Studied "Harmony for Computer Musicians" and learned a lot but it's general theory not really orchestral based.
> 
> I also want to put in a good word for the Scoreclub courses and they are definitely applicable to film scoring and orchestration. Good stuff!


Same here, studying theory in uni didn't really apply to my style of composition. Thanks for sharing.


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## JohnG

PeterN said:


> I can say something no course has yet delivered, and that is extensive midi examples on different types of midi orchestration. By that I mean theres a midi file with the video, and you can add any of your own, say, oboe, cello and so on there, on the “oboe track”, once you have opened it, and then analyse different techniques of midi orchestration this way. With a tutorial video. ...



Nobody does it because it wouldn't work. Even within the same family of libraries (East West, Spitfire), the midi implementation -- the responsiveness and behaviour of the midi instruments -- can differ radically.

Consequently, there is no practical way to create a "universal" midi mockup, one that would allow users to substitute, to take your example, one oboe instead of another.

In fact, I think that it's a myth, often repeated, that one's midi orchestration should be significantly different from a real orchestration. I don't agree with that premise.

Accordingly, what you are hoping for already exists: printed musical scores! Many times, I've taken four or eight bars or whatever and tried to make them sound exactly like the recording. It's not that easy but it's possible to do, and I learned a lot about orchestration that way. That and getting some experience with real players.


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## ka00

I just want a series of screenflows (with audio) of the entire process of making several cues. From composition to mastering. Real time. Maybe explaining roughly what you’re thinking as you’re doing it but not much else.

I guess like shadowing someone who makes great stuff.


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## JohnG

ka00 said:


> I just want a series of screenflows (with audio) of the entire process of making several cues.



Sounds like Thinkspace would be just the thing you're seeking. They have courses, individual videos -- quite a bit of stuff that's exactly like what you're describing.


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## JohnG

ka00 said:


> Any titles you recommend from the paid ones?



That's up to you! I don't know what you need and what you already know


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## Chr!s

I'll be honest, I've not felt that any of the courses I've purchased online were of any real help. In fact, some were the opposite.

I'm still getting the hang of orchestration, but I can say that I have learned more about strings from listening to Vivaldi while reading along to the score than anyone online has ever taught me. Learned more about what kinds of flourishes and ornamentation the different sections can do by looking at analysis or scores of John Williams or watching elementary-school "meet the orchestra" videos than anywhere else so far. I've found greater insight in just watching Jjay Berthume (who also offers skype lessons) compose or breakdown one of his pieces on YouTube than any $100+ "masterclass". I got better at playing just from being the presence of and jamming with better guitar and piano players than I.

I'll not name names, I don't feel that's appropriate in this context, but it's been my experience that even paid courses online tend to have three major pitfalls:

*One* is that, simply put, they tend to cater to the lowest-common-denominator musically. They teach you: "Here's how to play a chord on the strings and play a very basic melody and here's how you can create an ostinato like The Dark Knight! That'll be 300 USD, please." There's little in the way about counterpoint, voice-leading, how to create more movement and energy in the piece and how to really craft a good theme. Which leads me to point number...

*Two.* Anyone can make a course and sell it. If they promote it well enough, they'll get subscribers. I've looked into some of the instructors, and found somewhere they say "Oh, well I don't really know much about theory to be honest and I'm entirely self-taught". It's like, not that they necessarily are bad at what they do or that you have to be a master to share insight, but this hardly makes you a qualified instructor. This kind of stuff, even to the point where some people teach BAD habits, is especially common on YouTube, and some of those people have made their way into paid courses.

*Three*. The courses can be misleading. I've seen trailers and read descriptions that make it sound like this course is going to "arm you with all the knowledge you need to compose and orchestrate your own music like the pros" (or some other self-elating slogan) only to pay for it, watch it, and it's mostly the teacher just talking and providing little in the way of demonstration. It's just a lot of florid, overly artistic language to describe what are, in reality, very practical and tangible concepts that skilled instructors could have you practicing in minutes. These are the ones that have annoyed me the most.

*So TL;DR*. I'll concede that I've probably had bad luck with the limited amount of online courses I have purchased, I probably am missing out on some out there that are really great, but even so — if I take anymore online lessons, it'll be one-one with someone whose work I like and respect and clearly has a significant degree of mastery over the craft. I just think it's better.


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## ChrisSiuMusic

Chr!s said:


> I'll be honest, I've not felt that any of the courses I've purchased online were of any real help. In fact, some were the opposite.
> 
> I'm still getting the hang of orchestration, but I can say that I have learned more about strings from listening to Vivaldi while reading along to the score than anyone online has ever taught me. Learned more about what kinds of flourishes and ornamentation the different sections can do by looking at analysis or scores of John Williams or watching elementary-school "meet the orchestra" videos than anywhere else so far. I've found greater insight in just watching Jjay Berthume (who also offers skype lessons) compose or breakdown one of his pieces on YouTube than any $100+ "masterclass". I got better at playing just from being the presence of and jamming with better guitar and piano players than I.
> 
> I'll not name names, I don't feel that's appropriate in this context, but it's been my experience that even paid courses online tend to have three major pitfalls:
> 
> *One* is that, simply put, they tend to cater to the lowest-common-denominator musically. They teach you: "Here's how to play a chord on the strings and play a very basic melody and here's how you can create an ostinato like The Dark Knight! That'll be 300 USD, please." There's little in the way about counterpoint, voice-leading, how to create more movement and energy in the piece and how to really craft a good theme. Which leads me to point number...
> 
> *Two.* Anyone can make a course and sell it. If they promote it well enough, they'll get subscribers. I've looked into some of the instructors, and found somewhere they say "Oh, well I don't really know much about theory to be honest and I'm entirely self-taught". It's like, not that they necessarily are bad at what they do or that you have to be a master to share insight, but this hardly makes you a qualified instructor. This kind of stuff, even to the point where some people teach BAD habits, is especially common on YouTube, and some of those people have made their way into paid courses.
> 
> *Three*. The courses can be misleading. I've seen trailers and read descriptions that make it sound like this course is going to "arm you with all the knowledge you need to compose and orchestrate your own music like the pros" (or some other self-elating slogan) only to pay for it, watch it, and it's mostly the teacher just talking and providing little in the way of demonstration. It's just a lot of florid, overly artistic language to describe what are, in reality, very practical and tangible concepts that skilled instructors could have you practicing in minutes. These are the ones that have annoyed me the most.
> 
> *So TL;DR*. I'll concede that I've probably had bad luck with the limited amount of online courses I have purchased, I probably am missing out on some out there that are really great, but even so — if I take anymore online lessons, it'll be one-one with someone whose work I like and respect and clearly has a significant degree of mastery over the craft. I just think it's better.


Hey Chris, that's really valuable insight that you've shared with us. Thank you!


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## PeterN

JohnG said:


> Nobody does it because it wouldn't work. Even within the same family of libraries (East West, Spitfire), the midi implementation -- the responsiveness and behaviour of the midi instruments -- can differ radically.
> 
> Consequently, there is no practical way to create a "universal" midi mockup, one that would allow users to substitute, to take your example, one oboe instead of another.
> 
> In fact, I think that it's a myth, often repeated, that one's midi orchestration should be significantly different from a real orchestration. I don't agree with that premise.
> 
> Accordingly, what you are hoping for already exists: printed musical scores! Many times, I've taken four or eight bars or whatever and tried to make them sound exactly like the recording. It's not that easy but it's possible to do, and I learned a lot about orchestration that way. That and getting some experience with real players.



Well, I dont believe in that. Say that one cello is so different from another that u couldnt make a course like this. I can agree there will be differences, but not crucial ones. And e.g. a great legato sound wouldnt even be the main point, main point would be to give customer possibility to analyze a score in midi, not in notation. And just to make this clear, personally I can analyze scoresheets, while not being a master on this, it is as easy as learning the russian alphabet. Still, Id be keen to buy a course with midi files and analyze that way. And not talking about a grande star wars mockup, it could be as simple as “violin melody, woodwinds harmonic movement, bass pizzicato”. Or whatever. Needless to say I have built up a lot of these great techniques myself, also by analyzing scoresheets, since no midi course delievered this.


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## tav.one

I've been benefitting a lot from Thinkspace courses, I recommend them. I have done Composers Blueprint, Harmony One & Harmony Two.


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## Chr!s

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> Hey Chris, that's really valuable insight that you've shared with us. Thank you!



No worries.

By the way, I've been watching your breakdowns of Chief Of The Sky and it's great stuff!


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## ChrisSiuMusic

Chr!s said:


> No worries.
> 
> By the way, I've been watching your breakdowns of Chief Of The Sky and it's great stuff!


Thanks Chris! I'm glad you're enjoying them


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## JF

I've always wanted a course on form. How to build a small idea into a whole piece, when to modulate etc.


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## ChrisSiuMusic

JF said:


> I've always wanted a course on form. How to build a small idea into a whole piece, when to modulate etc.


Great idea, thanks JF!


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## JohnG

PeterN said:


> Well, I dont believe in that. Say that one cello is so different from another that u couldnt make a course like this. I can agree there will be differences, but not crucial ones.



You're wrong.


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## PeterN

JohnG said:


> You're wrong.



So if a scoresheet shows “cello plays 8ths staccato a,g,c,a,g,c 4/4”, a scoresheet shows “bass plays pizzicato 4ths a,a,a” (or whatever) and a scorsheet shows oboe also does something similar, are you saying scoresheet is different from midi showing this?

Like: “if u layer this according to scoresheet, from scoresheet to midi, it will be different than if u layer it from midi to midi”.

You’re wrong. So wrong its amusing.

What Im trying to say is no scoresheet will say “in midi, this needs to be played with the Emberton violin”. Since we are talking about midi, even name of forum “VI”, (Virtual Instruments), and I assume at least 99.9% people here compose midi, a scoresheet is essentially same as a midisheet.


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## Anami

Or no money at all with Rick Beato. Sooooooo much info there. It's the best source for me. I'm surprised nobody mentioned him. Thinkspace is good stuff as well.


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## Desire Inspires

PeterN said:


> I just ask, why, has nobody done this yet, bcs me thinks theres money in selling orchestration course like this.



Well, I think _you_ should do it! Get that money, man!


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## dzilizzi

Anami said:


> Or no money at all with Rick Beato. Sooooooo much info there. It's the best source for me. I'm surprised nobody mentioned him. Thinkspace is good stuff as well.


Yes, just watching one of his videos explained a problem I was having and how to fix it. And it's free. ☺


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## PeterN

Desire Inspires said:


> Well, I think _you_ should do it! Get that money, man!



Orchestration course with midi rather than scoresheets. So that notation is in midi. Yea, its a good idea. If nobody does it within two years, maybe I will.

The different string runs and great harp arpeggios will be 49.9USD/midi packet. Layered according to John Williams notation techniques. I have a good deal of this ready stuff on midi by now. Even a folder called “midi arpeggios”. Another is called “midi runs”. And thats just the beginning.


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## d.healey

ka00 said:


> I just want a series of screenflows (with audio) of the entire process of making several cues. From composition to mastering. Real time. Maybe explaining roughly what you’re thinking as you’re doing it but not much else.
> 
> I guess like shadowing someone who makes great stuff.


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## Desire Inspires

PeterN said:


> Orchestration course with midi rather than scoresheets. So that notation is in midi. Yea, its a good idea. If nobody does it within two years, maybe I will.
> 
> The different string runs and great harp arpeggios will be 49.9USD/midi packet. Layered according to John Williams notation techniques. I have a good deal of this ready stuff on midi by now. Even a folder called “midi arpeggios”. Another is called “midi runs”. And thats just the beginning.



Oh nice. I hope you release your product. I think it will sell. People are looking for that product.


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## Jaap

I learned my basics (and also what I did not want) at the conservatory and university. 
But I learned a great deal last year about thinking out of the box regarding producing, sound design and in general the way to look at things regarding music production by the Masterclass from Deadmau5. I did not know his music very well and just knew his name, but got fascinated by the introduction of the masterclass (and the fact he has a wall of modular stuff there  ). Best $100 spend in a long long time!
https://www.masterclass.com/classes/deadmau5-teaches-electronic-music-production


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## reutunes

Back when the Northern Sounds forum was a thing, I followed the "Principles Of Orchestration" course on the forum which had audio / video examples. Sadly I can't get the examples to work any more but the site is here: http://northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/77-Principles-of-Orchestration

There's a pdf of the original book here: https://archive.org/details/principlesoforch00rims/page/n123


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## SillyMidOn

This might be of interest to you. It is not a course per se in that you don't interact with a tutor or have any assignments. Instead Steven Scott Smalley, who has orchestrated many a Hollywood movie, talks about the writing/arranging/orchestration of some famous scores. You download the scores and log in to hear the audio of him speaking. The important bit after that is doing loads of self-study of the scores. He also does a live version of this in the US in person with audiences:

http://www.filmmusicinstitute.com/courses.html

Hope that helps.


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## Chr!s

PeterN said:


> Orchestration course with midi rather than scoresheets. So that notation is in midi. Yea, its a good idea. If nobody does it within two years, maybe I will.



That indeed would be rad. 

I know when I see a screencast of playback of some really good tune made with VIs, I'm always pausing it to try and figure out what the hell is going on by looking at the piano roll.


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## R. Soul

Jaap said:


> I learned my basics (and also what I did not want) at the conservatory and university.
> But I learned a great deal last year about thinking out of the box regarding producing, sound design and in general the way to look at things regarding music production by the Masterclass from Deadmau5. I did not know his music very well and just knew his name, but got fascinated by the introduction of the masterclass (and the fact he has a wall of modular stuff there  ). Best $100 spend in a long long time!
> https://www.masterclass.com/classes/deadmau5-teaches-electronic-music-production


I'm curious.
Would you elaborate on that?
How does his course differ from the tons of courses available?


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## Akarin

The big Evenant course on cinematic music (stellar, best course ever), two courses from SVO (pricy but really good) and the Trailer Music Academy one (great course, great community). Oh, and several videos from Mike Verta that completely changed my life and the way I approach composition.


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## Jaap

R. Soul said:


> I'm curious.
> Would you elaborate on that?
> How does his course differ from the tons of courses available?



I did not follow many other courses, so can't compare them, but what I liked in this one is that he shows his way of thinking and offers you also some good ways to think outside the box, but also how to deal for example in getting things done or work out of the box when you are just starting or are on a low budget. Beside that it was very helpful and interesting to see his techniques, it is was very valuable for me to have over the complete course the more indepth insight on ways of thinking regarding productions. He is also quite the non-bulshit guy who thinks his way is the best, completely the opposite and I found that very refreshing.


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## Eduardo Lopez

I really think the best way of learning all the complexities of composing, orchestrating, music production, MIDI, film-scoring is through a mentor(s), not only you save time, money and experience, but have someone coaching you, and more importantly sharing his experience and years of study!

I did 7 Years of "Classical" conservatoire training, tried most of the Evenant courses, Scoreclub and dozens of books, and while some are really great, you won´t get personalized feedback on all your assignments and someone to teach you how to put all the kwnoledge you get together and to find your own music voice or style.

I´ve been lucky enough to invest my money on several mentors along these years and I must say that *Leon Willett* has been super top-notch in the last months, in helping me in my composing journey (besides being an awesome guy and freaking fantastic composer!), from basic Harmony, Counterpoint, Orchestration and MIDI mockups, all the way to the nastiests orchestal devices and harmonies you hear in Williams or John Powell. I really encourage anyone interested in trying out his method and lessons (and listen to the work and music of the people you buy courses and take lessons from before spending your money! ).

http://leonwillett.com/leonwillett.com/Skype_Lessons.html

I still got a long way to go, but these are a few quick excercises I´ve been doing weekly with him and definitely my music writing and artistic voice have improved in the last months dramatically!

Score:
https://issuu.com/aurilind/docs/_3_-_concert_score
Audio:


Score:
https://issuu.com/aurilind/docs/_4_-_concert_score
Audio:


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## Farkle

PeterN said:


> So if a scoresheet shows “cello plays 8ths staccato a,g,c,a,g,c 4/4”, a scoresheet shows “bass plays pizzicato 4ths a,a,a” (or whatever) and a scorsheet shows oboe also does something similar, are you saying scoresheet is different from midi showing this?
> 
> Like: “if u layer this according to scoresheet, from scoresheet to midi, it will be different than if u layer it from midi to midi”.
> 
> You’re wrong. So wrong its amusing.
> 
> What Im trying to say is no scoresheet will say “in midi, this needs to be played with the Emberton violin”. Since we are talking about midi, even name of forum “VI”, (Virtual Instruments), and I assume at least 99.9% people here compose midi, a scoresheet is essentially same as a midisheet.



Yes, no scoresheet will say "in midi, use Emberton Violin." However, in terms of developing a musical piece, where the midi performance is as effective as possible, then you will _absolutely_ be looking at different sample libraries, often from note to note, to realize the _effect_ of the line you wrote.

The difference between Symphobia's pizz'es, and Sonic Implants Pizz'es is huge. One is huge, brash, bright, and cutting. One is soft, blend'y, and light. Now, I put a midi note on a pizz track, and say "play pizz". So someone plays the big Symph pizz; but that pizz is musically being an underscore to a solo alto flute. Guess what? It's going to sound like shit. This is not even a "oh, I played it too hard on velocity". No, it's not. The sample lib you got wasn't appropriate for the musical gesture that was written. 

No, you are wrong. If you layer this according to scoresheet, from scoresheet to midi, it will be different than if you layer from midi to midi. Yes, you are totally wrong.

Mike


----------



## Chr!s

Farkle said:


> Yes, no scoresheet will say "in midi, use Emberton Violin." However, in terms of developing a musical piece, where the midi performance is as effective as possible, then you will _absolutely_ be looking at different sample libraries, often from note to note, to realize the _effect_ of the line you wrote.
> 
> The difference between Symphobia's pizz'es, and Sonic Implants Pizz'es is huge. One is huge, brash, bright, and cutting. One is soft, blend'y, and light. Now, I put a midi note on a pizz track, and say "play pizz". So someone plays the big Symph pizz; but that pizz is musically being an underscore to a solo alto flute. Guess what? It's going to sound like shit. This is not even a "oh, I played it too hard on velocity". No, it's not. The sample lib you got wasn't appropriate for the musical gesture that was written.
> 
> No, you are wrong. If you layer this according to scoresheet, from scoresheet to midi, it will be different than if you layer from midi to midi. Yes, you are totally wrong.
> 
> Mike



I think you guys are missing the point.

He's not talking about making midi mockups with that data. He's saying that the course presents the information as MIDI data instead of notation. Which I agree would be valuable and is not offered anywhere that I'm aware of.

The failings of particular sample libraries is actually not relevant.


----------



## PeterN

Chr!s said:


> I think you guys are missing the point.
> 
> He's not talking about making midi mockups with that data. He's saying that the course presents the information as MIDI data instead of notation. Which I agree would be valuable and is not offered anywhere that I'm aware of.
> 
> The failings of particular sample libraries is actually not relevant.



Yup, thats the thing, and I think Im not even going to argue on this anymore, anyone who can read the alphabet should understand what I was saying.

I bought once “piano loops” that came as midi. These were excellent then, different styles, but after I got the EzKeys I havent used them. Theres the midi drag there. this has nothing to do with “pianos are different”, u can match that sound up yerself.

But essentially this could be presented as fairly simple midi “mockups”, or midi “sheets”, so that theres a basic string arsenal, basic woods and basic brass. Or similar. Just in midi, not in notation. as orchestration techniques. Readily served in midi, the only difference from notation is youd have to write that midi youself.

Are u getting this now? Dammit! Heh

And yes, some of this does exist, people have made these midi files. But theres no course like this. Get it?!


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## zolhof

PeterN said:


> Readily served in midi, the only difference from notation is youd have to write that midi youself.



Wouldn't you agree that you are missing one big step in learning this stuff (this is an education thread, after all) and that is: writing it down yourself?

I'm also excluding the use of a MIDI keyboard for note input, as brain imaging studies show that cursive activates areas of the brain that do not participate in "keyboarding". Writing by hand strengthen synapses (brain connectivity) and is shown to increase memory and retention.

I'm sure your "EzOrch" has its own benefits and I'm not suggesting you can't learn from it. But if you want to maximize the learning experience, writing it down yourself is a big part of the process.


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## PeterN

zolhof said:


> Wouldn't you agree that you are missing one big step in learning this stuff (this is an education thread, after all) and that is: writing it down yourself?
> 
> I'm also excluding the use of a MIDI keyboard for note input, as brain imaging studies show that cursive activates areas of the brain that do not participate in "keyboarding". Writing by hand strengthen synapses (brain connectivity) and is shown to increase memory and retention.
> 
> I'm sure your "EzOrch" has its own benefits and I'm not suggesting you can't learn from it. But if you want to maximize the learning experience, writing it down yourself is a big part of the process.



Since u wrote that ”EzOrch” u will not get a reply. Not that its a big deal, but for anyone not a professional pianist, can have hell a lot of use from the EzKeys and the midi u can pick from it. I know that name sounds somewhat embarrassing, but frankly, me not give a F about it. Since I know what I can do, and compose. You go chase your notations, I pick them from EzKeys midi packs, when needed.


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## zolhof

PeterN said:


> Since u wrote that ”EzOrch” u will not get a reply. Not that its a big deal, but for anyone not a professional pianist, can have hell a lot of use from the EzKeys and the midi u can pick from it. I know that name sounds somewhat embarrassing, but frankly, me not give a F about it. Since I know what I can do, and compose. You go chase your notations, I pick them from EzKeys midi packs, when needed.



As a drummer and avid user of EzDrummer, there's nothing embarrassing about EzKeys, EzOrch or EzWhatever. You mentioned EzKeys and I was just giving a name to the product you were describing. You shouldn't feel embarrassed or insecure about it. But I have a strong feeling that it's pointless to discuss this any further with you.

I hope my post has somewhat been useful to OP. Peace out.


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## ChrisSiuMusic

zolhof said:


> As a drummer and avid user of EzDrummer, there's nothing embarrassing about EzKeys, EzOrch or EzWhatever. You mentioned EzKeys and I was just giving a name to the product you were describing. You shouldn't feel embarrassed or insecure about it. But I have a strong feeling that it's pointless to discuss this any further with you.
> 
> I hope my post has somewhat been useful to OP. Peace out.


Thanks for jumping in!


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## T-Funk

I have not purchase an online music course at this time.

However, I have taken private lessons for several instruments throughout my life: piano (7 years), guitar (5 years), bass (8 years), trumpet (5 years) and vocal (3 years). Most of my music studies focused on Jazz, Classical, Gospel and R&B music. In addition to music lessons, I have played in various secular bands and Gospel choirs since childhood. Furthermore, I also have purchased a vast library of music-related book materials over the years (about 250), which provides me with a consistent stream of learning and practice resources.

Since I have gained an interest in independent filmmaking over the past year, I considered signing up for an online film score course. However, more than likely, I will register for a course at one of the local universities, in my area, when time permits.


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## PeterN

zolhof said:


> As a drummer and avid user of EzDrummer, there's nothing embarrassing about EzKeys, EzOrch or EzWhatever. You mentioned EzKeys and I was just giving a name to the product you were describing. You shouldn't feel embarrassed or insecure about it. But I have a strong feeling that it's pointless to discuss this any further with you.
> 
> I hope my post has somewhat been useful to OP. Peace out.



Its cool. I think you had a point, and its not a bad point. I think I had a point too. Just that line ”...your EzOrch...” crossed the line for fruitful dialogue from my side. Not that its a big deal.

Yup, Mike Verta, the guy who has embraced ”stealing” in the composer community. Anyone go steal that shimmering effect of his, put it in midi, and sell ”The Verta Shimmering effect” as midi pack for 10USD/file. You have a thousand on your account in a week. It can be learned with midi too. And fast.

Sorry Chris for stirring around too much here, I got engaged by all the questions. Its yer thread, I try to sneak away slowly.


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## mverta

PeterN said:


> Yup, Mike Verta, the guy who has embraced ”stealing” in the composer community. Anyone go steal that shimmering effect of his, put it in midi, and sell ”The Verta Shimmering effect” as midi pack for 10USD/file. You have a thousand on your account in a week.



Goddammit... why didn't I think of this?!


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## ChrisSiuMusic

PeterN said:


> Its cool. I think you had a point, and its not a bad point. I think I had a point too. Just that line ”...your EzOrch...” crossed the line for fruitful dialogue from my side. Not that its a big deal.
> 
> Yup, Mike Verta, the guy who has embraced ”stealing” in the composer community. Anyone go steal that shimmering effect of his, put it in midi, and sell ”The Verta Shimmering effect” as midi pack for 10USD/file. You have a thousand on your account in a week. It can be learned with midi too. And fast.
> 
> Sorry Chris for stirring around too much here, I got engaged by all the questions. Its yer thread, I try to sneak away slowly.


Great to have you here Peter


----------



## ChrisSiuMusic

mverta said:


> Goddammit... why didn't I think of this?!


It's never too late... 

Btw it's wonderful seeing you on the thread Mike! You're one of my major musical influences.


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## robgb

Chr!s said:


> I've looked into some of the instructors, and found somewhere they say "Oh, well I don't really know much about theory to be honest and I'm entirely self-taught".


This is exactly the kind of instructor I'd want. Someone who took it upon him or herself to figure it out on their own. I'm self-taught as a novelist. Never took a class. I spent years learning how to write fiction and honing my craft. I've been published by the Big Five publishing houses. No editor or other writer said to me, "We don't value your work because you're self-taught." Instead, they weighed my value based on the books I wrote. There's no reason why composers should be any different. If you love what they've composed, produced, orchestrated, and they are good teachers, it shouldn't matter a hoot whether or not they have formal training or they learned on their own.


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## ChrisSiuMusic

robgb said:


> This is exactly the kind of instructor I'd want. Someone who took it upon him or herself to figure it out on their own. I'm self-taught as a novelist. Never took a class. I spent years learning how to write fiction and honing my craft. I've been published by the Big Five publishing houses. No editor or other writer said to me, "We don't value your work because you're self-taught." Instead, they weighed my value based on the books I wrote. There's no reason why composers should be any different. If you love what they've composed, produced, orchestrated, and they are good teachers, it shouldn't matter a hoot whether or not they have formal training or they learned on their own.


This was very inspiring to read. I’m in this boat myself; I’ve been listening to my favourite soundtracks for years, and started producing my own music this year based on my favourite elements of each style.

My whole reason for starting this thread was to hopefully create my own online course in the future, sharing my own experience, discoveries, nuances, and workflow. Thanks for all your input so far!


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## SimonCharlesHanna

robgb said:


> If you love what they've composed, produced, orchestrated, and they are good teachers, it shouldn't matter a hoot whether or not they have formal training or they learned on their own.


It does say something though if they can't be bothered learning music theory. I'd also be concerned of whether or not they are offering well informed advice.


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## ChrisSiuMusic

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> It does say something though if they can't be bothered learning music theory. I'd also be concerned of whether or not they are offering well informed advice.


Good point Simon. Knowing the building blocks of music in and out can really help us tremendously.


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## Chr!s

robgb said:


> This is exactly the kind of instructor I'd want. Someone who took it upon him or herself to figure it out on their own. I'm self-taught as a novelist. Never took a class. I spent years learning how to write fiction and honing my craft. I've been published by the Big Five publishing houses. No editor or other writer said to me, "We don't value your work because you're self-taught." Instead, they weighed my value based on the books I wrote. There's no reason why composers should be any different. If you love what they've composed, produced, orchestrated, and they are good teachers, it shouldn't matter a hoot whether or not they have formal training or they learned on their own.



I said in my post that it doesn't mean they don't have anything worth hearing or aren't good at what they do, but it isn't exactly a selling point for me.



SimonCharlesHanna said:


> It does say something though if they can't be bothered learning music theory. I'd also be concerned of whether or not they are offering well informed advice.



Exactly


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## mverta

FWIW, what I believe - and what I teach - about theory is that it is a wonderful way to discuss and analyze music, but it does not provide a set of rules the following of which will guarantee a good or compelling piece; despite many composers' wish otherwise. I was paying my bills as a composer well before learning formal theory, and when I did, it put names to things which I'd already learned through trial and error; things which I had a true and practical understanding of, if not a formal name for. Learning theory was a bit like organizing my closet - everything was already in there, it just helped organize it a bit better. It did not make me a better composer; it made me more capable of describing my devices to other composers. I never think about theory, even unconsciously, when writing. Analyzing my own pieces after the fact is as foreign to me as it is for anyone else. It tends to be that pieces which "work" make a lot of sense, theoretically - this follows since theory was largely reverse-engineered from great pieces written without it. But the illusion that a piece which works in theory must have been built with theory is just that. I've found that those who write from theory outward tend to write boring, predictable, but theoretically impeccable pieces. But with 7.2 bn people on the planet, statistically, there must be a couple, right? Anyway, we learn by doing. Go and do.

_Mike


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## ChrisSiuMusic

Thinking back, I feel that learning theory, harmony, counterpoint, and even history as a child jogged my creative side and sparked my interest in composition in the first place. Without it, I don’t think my understanding of progression, modulation, etc. would be as strong, and I see it as a true fundamental base for me. 

Listening to music with a theoretical background allowed me to appreciate and understand the devices behind the pieces I’ve grown to love, and it’s only helped me in my work. There’s always something new to discover.


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## robgb

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> It does say something though if they can't be bothered learning music theory. I'd also be concerned of whether or not they are offering well informed advice.


Again, I'm not sure it matters as long as the work they produce is good or great. Clearly if their examples are shit, you should probably shy away. But not everyone needs to take the same path.


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## Chr!s

robgb said:


> Again, I'm not sure it matters as long as the work they produce is good or great. Clearly if their examples are shit, you should probably shy away. But not everyone needs to take the same path.



Just because their work is good doesn't mean they are any good at explaining it though, and in my honest opinion — it shows minimal respect for the craft if you can't really put what you're doing into words we can all understand.

Maybe it's just me, but I think that a teacher, especially one I'm _paying_ to teach me, should be held to a higher standard than that.


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## SimonCharlesHanna

robgb said:


> Again, I'm not sure it matters as long as the work they produce is good or great. Clearly if their examples are shit, you should probably shy away. But not everyone needs to take the same path.


What Chris said above, but I did want to make clear that I am not saying you need formal understanding to write good music.


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## mverta

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> Without it, I don’t think my understanding of progression, modulation, etc. would be as strong, and I see it as a true fundamental base for me.



Then the question we have to ask ourselves is: can we write a pop tune? Can we write a simple pop tune right now with a catchy melody that people can't get out of their heads? Can we sit down, write it and sell it right now? Because if we can't then we're not in control. We don't have control of our craft. And if we don't have that then we can take all of our Theory and pound it sideways. How are we going to do something complex if we can't even do the simplest thing? 

I'm for whatever works, however we get there. But what I'm really for is control; choice. We could fill a phone book with composers fluent in theory; the same cannot be said of composers truly in control of their life's destiny through their music. Of course if that isn't our goal, then it doesn't matter. If it is, then control is what steals our future back from pure chance. If theory has given you that power then, brother you keep on it and never look back!


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## ChrisSiuMusic

mverta said:


> Then the question we have to ask ourselves is: can we write a pop tune? Can we write a simple pop tune right now with a catchy melody that people can't get out of their heads? Can we sit down, write it and sell it right now? Because if we can't then we're not in control. We don't have control of our craft. And if we don't have that then we can take all of our Theory and pound it sideways. How are we going to do something complex if we can't even do the simplest thing?
> 
> I'm for whatever works, however we get there. But what I'm really for is control; choice. We could fill a phone book with composers fluent in theory; the same cannot be said of composers truly in control of their life's destiny through their music. Of course if that isn't our goal, then it doesn't matter. If it is, then control is what steals our future back from pure chance. If theory has given you that power then, brother you keep on it and never look back!


That's a great question; I remember you discussing that in one of your lectures! For me (and I'm sure for many others), theory solidified my grasp in my understanding of musical devices and taught me new structures, although as far as I can remember, improvising short tunes and humming all over the house (annoying my parents to no end) has been a part of my life


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## MartinH.

As a hobbyist who is progressing only very slowly I find that looking back on my older work, it shows where I've learned "a bit" of theory, and in my output it showed as a step back. I think I would have hugely benefitted from getting Mike's advice on theory and learning through transcription, _before _touching any of the theory. It's not that the theory is bad, but without the right context for how to wield that weapon in your arsenal, it's easy to cut your own legs off.

Also having been academically trained in something other than music, that I also persued self-taught in addition to that, I am very open to the reality that _sometimes _formal education isn't necessarrily a good education, and some self-taught people will indeed be objectively better - both at doing and at teaching it.


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## wolf

MVerta: "I never think about theory, even unconsciously" you don't know what you think about unconsciously - at least not consciously 
teasing aside, I understand your point as: you know what you know about theory so well that you don't have to consciously think about it in order to apply it. Which also derives from you having learned much of it by practical explorations first. And it's hard to separate the two aspects now that you have learned theory.

I do not agree that "theory..does not provide a set of rules the following of which will guarantee a good or compelling piece". depends what exactly you mean by "good" and "compelling". But in the general sense of the words: absolutely it does. One just has to know theory well enough and have practiced its application enough. Much music that functions perfectly well for many media projects and gets you paid can be written very quickly, with perfectly happy customers just by applying tried old music theory rules. I-IV-V chords with diatonic melody, anchored around chord tones - proper phrase building, standard instrumentation to make a cheerful country tune for a small mobile game - I happily do it any day and several times a day too, if needed. (of course that's not all I do) And while I speedily apply such principles (or rules if you will) I might even get inspired with some extra fun stuff as well. 

Maybe you rather mean "original and inspired"? But even if that: applying theory does not preclude inspiration nor originality - neither of which means that it has to be outside any rules to be accepted as such. and nothing really guarantees inspiration anyways - we just can do our best to help it along.

to me "writing from theory outward" is just a potential part of the path to mastery. a phase we go through. And it's not a straight path either - more like a circling around the great mystery.


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## wolf

back to the original topic: I too found several of the Thinkspace courses very good. I think their whole setup and concept is excellent and Guy is excellent at presenting the material.

I found many useful courses on LinkedIn Learning in a wide variety of topics. mixing, music business, software tutorials, production. but also, and that's almost more important to me: on film making, communication, business in general, investing and drawing (a hobby I wish I had more time to pursue). MacProvideo also has some good courses on many of the same topics. Online course spaces like this abound today - there's almost too much to pick from.


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## ChrisSiuMusic

wolf said:


> back to the original topic: I too found several of the Thinkspace courses very good. I think their whole setup and concept is excellent and Guy is excellent at presenting the material.
> 
> I found many useful courses on LinkedIn Learning in a wide variety of topics. mixing, music business, software tutorials, production. but also, and that's almost more important to me: on film making, communication, business in general, investing and drawing (a hobby I wish I had more time to pursue). MacProvideo also has some good courses on many of the same topics. Online course spaces like this abound today - there's almost too much to pick from.


Thinkspace seems to go very in-depth, and I agree that Guy is awesome. His upbeat fun style makes the whole experience enjoyable. Lynda is also a great website to learn from.


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## robgb

Here's an example of the type of composer I'm talking about. Self-taught. Doesn't read music. Hasn't studied theory.


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## SimonCharlesHanna

robgb said:


> Here's an example of the type of composer I'm talking about. Self-taught. Doesn't read music. Hasn't studied theory.


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## JohnG

robgb said:


> Here's an example of the type of composer I'm talking about. Self-taught. Doesn't read music. Hasn't studied theory.



I don't understand how not knowing theory or being unable to read music could possibly be a plus in a teacher.

One of the main reasons I'd seek out a teacher would be for him/her to say, "look, I can hear what you're trying for in this spot and it's not working because..." Music, at least a lot of commercial music, is not an uncharted wilderness that nobody has ever explored; on the contrary, a lot of ideas "just work," and I like a teacher who can help me get there faster. Not a cookie-cutter, but "here are three or four ways you could improve this passage," and start from there.

*"I'd Like More of That Please"*

We all can come up with four bars, maybe eight or sixteen, that sound really good. But then what? What if you have four weeks to write and produce a finished score of 70 minutes? It's a lot faster and less painless if you have three or four ways of looking at those sixteen bars you already wrote and analysing them, so you can work out what, exactly, is unusual and / or appealing about them. Theory is very good at helping to do that, and at propagating, _extending_ that bit you already composed so it forms the basis for a lot more music.

I do like a lot of music written by self-taught composers -- we can all think of them. Nevertheless, when faced with a ferocious deadline and needing to produce a thick stack of full-score orchestral music, either you need to know how to get the notes down the way you want or surround yourself with a lot of orchestrators help get it all done.

Maybe some find it more admirable to be self-taught? That's one thing when it comes to novels, but another, I think, when it comes to the orchestra. If you have a meaty project and a deadline, typically there's just too much to figure out if you're starting from scratch.


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## robgb

JohnG said:


> I don't understand how not knowing theory or being unable to read music could possibly be a plus in a teacher.


It's not necessarily a plus. But it's not a minus, either. That's my point. For me, personally, I want a guy who works and thinks the way I do. But clearly your mileage varies.

As for the rest of your post, Henson's multitude of credits hasn't kept him from being continuously employed and meeting deadlines.


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## Chr!s

JohnG said:


> Maybe some find it more admirable to be self-taught? That's one thing when it comes to novels, but another, I think, when it comes to the orchestra. If you have a meaty project and a deadline, typically there's just too much to figure out if you're starting from scratch.



People like cheering for the underdogs. They like the romanticism that comes with art being seemingly limitless, and bound only by the extent of one's imagination; where we don't really know where this genius and beauty comes from. 

The introduction of things like music theory or "rules" removes the veil and reveals a logic, order, and method to it all — a craft. 

So the idea — to someone who really loves music, but is not as interested or unaware of the workings "beneath the hood" — that the piece they love so much is the product of various formulas being applied to create something aesthetic, rather than purely a conjuring of the soul, seems to cheapen the whole experience.

Harmony, counterpoint, structure, phrasing, orchestration, etc. are all the result of all of mankind's existence and study of music, and the "rules" (and when and why to break them); the theories were established _for a reason: _They undeniably work.

I've never felt my music suffered yet from learning more about music theory and I find it fun. And it seems that every time this argument pops up, someone inevitably says "Some people know a lot about theory and their music sucks!" 

Well, I have yet to hear someone who was really knowledgeable of theory, and how to apply it, who actually makes bad music.


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## patrick76

Chr!s said:


> Well, I have yet to hear someone who was really knowledgeable of theory, and how to apply it, who actually makes bad music.


Um, about 95% of composition majors....ha. But I definitely agree that learning theory is a good thing and beneficial.


----------



## JohnG

Chr!s said:


> Well, I have yet to hear someone who was really knowledgeable of theory, and how to apply it, who actually makes bad music.



I like the rest of your post but this ^^ -- sadly...too many counter-examples, alas.


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## JohnG

robgb said:


> As for the rest of your post, Henson's multitude of credits hasn't kept him from being continuously employed and meeting deadlines.



There are a few, even Oscar-winners, but the vast majority of working composers use everything they know to keep producing their work. I certainly would be much slower and would be less inventive without it.

Sometimes, there seems to be an active antipathy here toward book-learnin'

Maybe it's just me but I use every last thing I ever learned, all the time, from bar bands to choir to orchestration. It's all helpful, including the bar bands; sometimes power chords are very effective, even if they're played by 20 brass players instead of a guitar.


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## wolf

great post Chris.


----------



## wolf

JohnG said:


> I like the rest of your post but this ^^ -- sadly...too many counter-examples, alas.


 I say this depends on how you define "really knowledgeable of theory, and how to apply it". the more important part being in "how to apply it". That's where so many other factors come in - all the stuff that's a little harder to define and pin down. things like our "feel" for music; our life experience that informs the choices we make.

And how exactly do you define "bad music"? Is an academically written Fugue, that's not quite as intricate as a JS Bach Fugue, bad music? 

Bad music could be music that the client doesn't approve (then again, it might just fit perfectly for a different project, which transforms it into good music). 

Bad music could be something the audience (the majority of it) doesn't like. Then loads of art music held in high regard by only a few would qualify as bad. Or a hundred years could pass and suddenly everybody is in awe of its genius.
One thing that comes to mind: bad music is when the composer fails to achieve what he/she intended due to lack of craft. But that's not an absolute either.

anyways, I don't really want to open a discussion about a definition of good and bad music - it's a bottomless pit. I just don't like the careless throwing about of such terms and the group bashing of those on the path.

in short, I too am baffled by the apparent theory phobia I so often encounter (not just here). Like JohnG says: I use everything I can. It's a competitive field after all.


patrick76, just checking, that was a joke, right?


----------



## wolf

I searched for Chris Henson and music theory. found this:  His story is a good and I'm afraid typical example of the kind of bad experience with music theory that sours the field for some. Dissecting the many things Chris mentions would require it's own thread. He makes some good points and found his way of working. cool. He also implies that he does know quite a bit of theory - he just stores and recalls it differently than by "dots on a page".


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## PeterN

mverta said:


> Goddammit... why didn't I think of this?!



Heres what you should do Mike. Sorry I sound proselytizing, but it is what you should do. Heh. Not saying your courses arent great already, just this is how you hit the jackpot.

Add a bonus option to your courses. There would be both the option to buy:

A) Notation
B) Midi

You get the idea. In the (lets say) Horner class there the bonus option to buy either a notation example or a midi example of the Horner style you taught. Same goes for the rest. You know, we would get an erection for this bonus option mate. Not sure if its outside your philosophy of teaching, and if so, then so be it. But just saying....and personally I suspect nobody could do this better than Mike Verta. We are craving it like an Italian pizza after a trek through the desert (i.e. the five hours course trek).


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## ChrisSiuMusic

douggibson said:


> I think this makes total sense. I am hoping to release a string orchestration tutorial, and I am certainly going to include the midi files. I also wanted to do this as a lot of composers will record small string sections to add realism with larger sounding string libraries. So I want people to be able to see what that would be like, and also - perhaps - see how far you can push the libraries.
> 
> I used a "bad luggage lock" of 5-4-3-2-1 for the recording.
> 
> I think it makes sense. Below is an example, and the midi would be included.



This is wonderful Doug! Thanks for sharing this with us. I love how simple this was to understand


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## NoamL

Chr!s said:


> I'll be honest, I've not felt that any of the courses I've purchased online were of any real help. In fact, some were the opposite.
> 
> I'm still getting the hang of orchestration, but I can say that I have learned more about strings from listening to Vivaldi while reading along to the score than anyone online has ever taught me. Learned more about what kinds of flourishes and ornamentation the different sections can do by looking at analysis or scores of John Williams or watching elementary-school "meet the orchestra" videos than anywhere else so far. I've found greater insight in just watching Jjay Berthume (who also offers skype lessons) compose or breakdown one of his pieces on YouTube than any $100+ "masterclass". I got better at playing just from being the presence of and jamming with better guitar and piano players than I.
> 
> I'll not name names, I don't feel that's appropriate in this context, but it's been my experience that even paid courses online tend to have three major pitfalls:
> 
> *One* is that, simply put, they tend to cater to the lowest-common-denominator musically. They teach you: "Here's how to play a chord on the strings and play a very basic melody and here's how you can create an ostinato like The Dark Knight! That'll be 300 USD, please." There's little in the way about counterpoint, voice-leading, how to create more movement and energy in the piece and how to really craft a good theme. Which leads me to point number...
> 
> *Two.* Anyone can make a course and sell it. If they promote it well enough, they'll get subscribers. I've looked into some of the instructors, and found somewhere they say "Oh, well I don't really know much about theory to be honest and I'm entirely self-taught". It's like, not that they necessarily are bad at what they do or that you have to be a master to share insight, but this hardly makes you a qualified instructor. This kind of stuff, even to the point where some people teach BAD habits, is especially common on YouTube, and some of those people have made their way into paid courses.
> 
> *Three*. The courses can be misleading. I've seen trailers and read descriptions that make it sound like this course is going to "arm you with all the knowledge you need to compose and orchestrate your own music like the pros" (or some other self-elating slogan) only to pay for it, watch it, and it's mostly the teacher just talking and providing little in the way of demonstration. It's just a lot of florid, overly artistic language to describe what are, in reality, very practical and tangible concepts that skilled instructors could have you practicing in minutes. These are the ones that have annoyed me the most.
> 
> *So TL;DR*. I'll concede that I've probably had bad luck with the limited amount of online courses I have purchased, I probably am missing out on some out there that are really great, but even so — if I take anymore online lessons, it'll be one-one with someone whose work I like and respect and clearly has a significant degree of mastery over the craft. I just think it's better.



Kudos for being brave enough to say it.

The way all musical masters have learned is the same. Score study. (and today with our technology it can be combined with active listening which is even better). So it's no mystery how to improve as a composer. Study your heroes, study your heroes' influences. (for me, Williams and the Russians)

The problem is.... score study is something you must put *a lot of effort* into yourself, or else someone else must put *a lot of effort* into studying scores deeply and then create a structured lesson plan to share the lessons they learned, that also takes *a lot of effort* to create.

I think the general problem is that these seminars, with one exception I can think of aren't really lesson plans. More like long improvised Music Talks. They might tell you some valuable nuggets of info along the way but it's not STRUCTURED teaching that will sink in and really give you a comprehensive mastery of the topic.

There's a reason school is expensive and Ted talks are free.

There is a "YouTube guru" who has a 20 minute long video about How to Orchestrate like John Williams and the entire video is him breaking down what each instrument is playing during the first chord of Star Wars. In the course of the video he explains how trumpets transpose and so on. I have to wonder what audience doesn't understand basic instrument concepts yet is ready to "Orchestrate like John Williams"?

Also a tutti sforzando chord is like the least interesting and creative orchestration assignment. Of course the flutes are going to be playing high above the staff, where else would they play, middle C? JW is not an orchestration master because he knows how to assign out a sforzando chord, he's a master because he knows how to color 6 straight minutes of music with constant variety, clarity and nuance.

Is there an orchestration seminar out there where someone says,* "here is the chapter on the Flute, here is its range, its characteristic roles in the orchestra, now I'm going to play you a dozen examples of how to unison or 8ve it with other instruments, those dozen exawill be drawn drawn from just as many diverse cues from JW and other masters, and we'll talk about what makes each color choice different and why each one works in its scenario"*?

That would be a full time job, to create a course like that. Also just by structuring the course like that you are shutting out people with less instrumentation knowledge... and even more so, _people who don't read music_, which is a major section of the people who buy these seminars.

And people who don't read music hate being told "The very first thing you can do to become a better composer is learn to read music."

The following video has sadly very few views, I think if you study it it's a true master class in John Williams' (and Conrad Pope's) orchestration knowledge. Just study the different ways the woodwinds are doubled, how it's constantly changing and also working with the scene.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau

NoamL said:


> There is a "YouTube guru" who has a 20 minute long video about How to Orchestrate like John Williams and the entire video is him breaking down what each instrument is playing during the first chord of Star Wars. In the course of the video he explains how trumpets transpose and so on. I have to wonder what audience doesn't understand basic instrument concepts yet is ready to "Orchestrate like John Williams"?



I've seen that video and definitely remember it as a "Too much internet for today" moment.


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## NoamL

Also in regards to the conversation about MIDI files of orchestral music for you to practice "MIDI orchestration" on, there is a huge library of such files on the Net.

Just look here for instance:

http://johnwilliams.free.fr/midi.php?critere=film

Another excellent youtube channel full of score reductions & explanations, shared for free!


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## PeterN

NoamL said:


> Also in regards to the conversation about MIDI files of orchestral music for you to practice "MIDI orchestration" on, there is a huge library of such files on the Net.
> 
> Just look here for instance:
> 
> http://johnwilliams.free.fr/midi.php?critere=film
> 
> Another excellent youtube channel full of score reductions & explanations, shared for free!




Yea, Noam, but I am basically saying to take this a step further. To show the, say, Silvestri style, (etc.) through midi. To show a basic chamber style through midi. And so on and so on, as organized courses.

Personally when I started - now I started composing when 16 years old, but only tried to orchestrate all myself - since 2 years ago, you know very well this is a lot of work. Some techniques I have discovered myself, for example, (just making something up now): bass plays pizzicato, woods do low harmony triads, cello does counter melody above that, oboe do the chords above the cello, string play in unison the melody on that. Flute does a run fill.

Right.

Fuck this has taken ages man to gather great styles, yes, its great to work this out yourself, but at the same time learn basic mastering, mixing basics, the daw, the libraries, the plugins, the reverb, the delay....you fuckin name it. Shall I have time to go and search all the notations too? Then fill them in midi. Maybe, but how can I also save time?

If someone delivers a midi class, fast food style, different styles, Im in. And Im not the only one. It will be a success.

If Mike does it he can buy a Porsche next year.


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## patrick76

wolf said:


> patrick76, just checking, that was a joke, right?


Not so much a joke as an exaggeration. Btw, I was a composition major... I just don't believe knowing theory will make you a good composer....it may well help, but when you've heard as many composer concerts as I have, it becomes self evident. 

I'm not anti-theory at all though, just the opposite. Knowledge is power.


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## wolf

patrick76 said:


> Not so much a joke as an exaggeration.



I'm with you to some extend (certainly about theory being a powerful tool). Theory by itself will not make good composers. Theory by itself won't even make a good theorist. I'd never claim that it does nor do I think other proponents of studying theory would. 
I like to go with: Some of us, me included, have to write a lot of "bad" music before we write "good" music. As a media composer, good music is the one that gets approved AND results in a call back (Hoodwinked reference) for the next project. 
I do write "bad" music with every project - write a bunch of stuff - throw out what I think doesn't work. keep and develop the rest. main difference: nobody gets to hear the bad choices (well, mostly. rewrites after submitting tracks do happen of course). 
Nothing is quite as effective at stopping me from writing (blocking my chi) than trying to write a master piece. That's of course a reference to Tenacious D in The Pick of Destiny  ( colorful language warning...)

sorry, that could derail the thread... but that movie is actually quite educational. especially for those about to Rock.


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## R. Soul

I think Adam Neely said it quite well..


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## kitekrazy

Jaap said:


> I learned my basics (and also what I did not want) at the conservatory and university.
> But I learned a great deal last year about thinking out of the box regarding producing, sound design and in general the way to look at things regarding music production by the Masterclass from Deadmau5. I did not know his music very well and just knew his name, but got fascinated by the introduction of the masterclass (and the fact he has a wall of modular stuff there  ). Best $100 spend in a long long time!
> https://www.masterclass.com/classes/deadmau5-teaches-electronic-music-production



I'm thinking of getting the one with Armin Van Buuren.


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## kitekrazy

patrick76 said:


> Not so much a joke as an exaggeration. Btw, I was a composition major... I just don't believe knowing theory will make you a good composer....it may well help, but when you've heard as many composer concerts as I have, it becomes self evident.
> 
> I'm not anti-theory at all though, just the opposite. Knowledge is power.



My music courses were all expensive because I got them via college. I also appreciated the music ed. courses because we actually had to play the instruments. If you started on theory it can be a roadblock instead of trusting or experimenting using your ears more than your mind. 

I've grown fond of dance genres and interested in the form of certain dance genres.

I'd want to create chillout music but there is very little out there. Maybe it's because it doesn't have a set of rules like other genres.


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## kitekrazy

BTW where does one learn Kontakt scripting?


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## tmhuud

kitekrazy said:


> BTW where does one learn Kontakt scripting?



I learned it on my own but...there’s plenty of YouTube videos that lend a helping hand and I’ve heard of:

https://xtant-audio.com/product-category/tutorials/


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## kitekrazy

tmhuud said:


> I learned it on my own but...there’s plenty of YouTube videos that lend a helping hand and I’ve heard of:
> 
> https://xtant-audio.com/product-category/tutorials/



How did you learn it on your own?


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## wbacer

Has anyone checked out Leandro Gardini's, "Scoring Tools Masterclass?"
https://www.gardinischool.com/course?courseid=scoringtools
Looks interesting and he does have some chops...


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## bill5

Never purchased a course but have watched/read numerous things online. Oh and via work I have access to Linkedin Learning which has various courses, have tried a few, kind of a mixed bag, nothing great so far I think.


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## bill5

InLight-Tone said:


> I tried music theory and composition in college and got NOTHING out of it. Boring, dry very little real world application.


That tends to describe theory in general.


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