# Temp Tracks... Are composers losing their individuality?



## kid-surf (Jun 24, 2006)

I have to say........


I'm so sick of hearing directors ask for you to "get close to".... "can you sound like"... and "I cut my film to ______ score"

I just find it interesting that these directors (mainly the first time guys) are so interested in using temp scores. Do they not realize they are essentially "stealing" the EMOTION from "another" film and using that as a crutch for theirs. It's really no different than using training wheels to ride a bike. It's cheating, it's pubescent.

I just have a problem with looking at films like that as "honest" works of art. 

And frankly I'm always taken a back by directors that don't have the confidence to search out a composer who can give them "the real thing". Don't they realize that by using a temp score they invariably will receive the "muzak" version, the watered down version, not the "real thing". They really don't understand that?

But aside from that.... wouldn't you as a director what to make your own mark. Wouldn't you want a score that is 100% fitted to "YOUR" films sensibilities? Or do all the nu-skool directors use temp scripts too? Is there really any diff in using a temp score and lifting the "idea/tone" of another successful script? Not in my opinion....

I just don't see how a director hopes to achieve a "voice" as a filmmaker if they are using these "artistic cheats". All the filmmakers they aspire to be like didn't use temp scores (well, most of them anyway). Don't they watch these cult classics and/or generally fantastic critically acclaimed films and clearly see that the score was at least an "attempt" at an original score? And many times the attempt is fruitful IMO. Don't they realize that the score they are using as a temp _was_ (at some point) an "original work" MEANT for "not their film but the one it was written for"? Don't they realize that the reason they like the score in the first place is because the film and score were "original works"... that WORKED because of it, and therefor look/sound/feel *EMOTIONALLY FRESH*. Don't they realize how detrimental it all is to the film process in general terms? Maybe they don't care? Don't they realize that soon we (composers) will all sound the friggn same because they are unwilling to attempt to "try and create an original work" and/or allow us to take some initiative to do so on their behalf... 

There are a few scores that every fledgling director seems to want to temp for their film. How about just doing something NEW. How about that? I sincerely don't get where these type of director's heads are at. I know my venting here is not going to change a thing. But I do feel like this modus operandi is ruining an art form that was intended to be more "true" in it's delivery. I think it's a shame (sham) that it is this way at all. And yet, there are some directors out there that are willing to try something new. They have a sense of who they are and what they are trying to bring to the world through film, they have a "voice" and know what it is, and they DO want to create something no one else has heard. They want 'us' to create something no one else has heard, something that was intended for "THEIR" film, and "ONLY" their film. They understand all that and why it's ultimately best for their film. Thank god for them. 

...Otherwise the copycat directors wouldn't have anything to temp. Then what? Write every film to match the "one" score we all mimic? What about having a point of view you stand for, one that you own? I can't get past believing that original films create a far bigger buzz for nu-skool directors. I think of people like Sofia Coppola, Coen Bros, Richard Kelly, Wes Anderson, Chris Nolan, Justin Lin and so forth. 


And I'm glad to know that John Williams feels essentially the same way I do about it...... what a nice surprise that was. That's why I bring this up, because I found it interesting that his feelings are essentially the same as mine.


Thanks for letting me vent.

And really... this is not about "me", I just sincerely believe these directors "deserve" original scores, even though many don't realize they do.

(I _am_ sick with a 102 temperature... but something tells me I'm making sense in spite of being sick as a dog)

What's your take...........


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## kid-surf (Jun 24, 2006)

*Re: Temp Tracks... Are composers their losing individuality?*

PS... nothing against those who've been asked to copy their temp score. This isn't really about you/us, it's about directors. We sometimes have no choice really.


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## Craig Sharmat (Jun 24, 2006)

Who said film had to be art?

sometimes it just needs to be good entertainment.


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## kid-surf (Jun 24, 2006)

Btw --- Craig.

The main question was about individuality as a composer. Do you not feel that these temp tracks are forcing many of us to sound like the "same" few guys? And if you believe so, isn't that sort of a drag?

Not that any of that is gonna hold me back, or anyone else... but I do think it's something that 'could' be different, is all. Ultimately that part of it is up to the director and/or producer(s).


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## Patrick de Caumette (Jun 24, 2006)

Problem is that most of the time, directors need music to cut their film to and since the composer/director relationship often happens after the fact, temps are used to facilitate the editing. Once the picture is married to music, it is very hard to introduce something else that will emotionally divorce the director from the temp and still make him/her happy...


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## Craig Sharmat (Jun 24, 2006)

Kid i agree your argument is good. The other side though is a temp is worth a thousand words. Sometimes a director knows what he wants, but can't convey it. A musical example which he knows may be what he is looking for in direction. That can also help or hinder the composer depending on the relationship the composer has with the director, and how competent the composer is at reading and creating original material.

what's your temp at now?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 24, 2006)

This is one of the elementary film scoring 101 issues, in fact that was one of the first things they taught us about at Berklee 25 years ago - and it was certainly nothing new then.

The classic example is 2001, when Kubrick threw out Alex North's score because he was used to the Blue Danube.

Music editors usually try to use music from the same composer when they track the temp score, for precisely this reason.


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## kid-surf (Jun 24, 2006)

Craig --- Yes, I know the upside to the temp. And I agree that it can have an upside if the director is aware of all the psychological issues that surround it.

My temp is still 102.... miserable, hope you don't get this.


Nick --- Yes I know this is 101 elementary stuff. I'm not saying I'm surprised by it, or that it's a new idea for me (or anyone else). I'm simply pointing out that I'm annoyed by it. I think it's fair to be annoyed by something this elementary. 

25 years ago (in 1981) indie films weren't even a factor.... there are way more films happening these days -vs- 25 years ago.

Anyway... maybe I should keep my ideas to myself..... I thought some may be able to relate and find it equally annoying. Or maybe no one else here finds these hoops annoying at times.


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## kid-surf (Jun 24, 2006)

Btw --- I should say that the thing I'm working on now I was told "I love your stuff, just do whatever you feel is right". And the thing I have lined up after this one I was told the same thing.

I just wish they were all that way. I know, a pipe dream. I'm a dreamer...

And no, I wouldn't express this opinion in a professional situation.


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## Stephen Rees (Jun 24, 2006)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Jun 25 said:


> Music editors usually try to use music from the same composer when they track the temp score, for precisely this reason.



Doesn't this make things even harder for a composer in a way?

If you are asked to 'sound like' another composer's piece, you can at least take elements of their style, add them to your own and try and create something original. 

If you are asked to sound like a piece you have already written yourself for another project, you tend to (or at least I do) sit there thinking 'but I've already written this piece before' and it is even harder to come up with something original.


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## wonshu (Jun 25, 2006)

Actually temp tracks make every thing _a lot_ easier... but yes, it makes everything a lot mushier too... 

PS: I'm not working for films yet... and I'm in Germany which sort of rules out the big films anyway... but here people do try to go for the "creative" stuff and a lot of times it doesn't work because they're really afraid of the emotions.

Cheers
Hans


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## TheoKrueger (Jun 25, 2006)

They say that sickness can give the mind a kick and make it capable of thinking unconventional things. So i'd like to thank each one of those 102 degrees for the nice thread, Kid 

*Get well very soon btw.

I think the heart of the problem is that people do not believe in their own worth, they don't have the will to fight against the flow of commercialism and win by beeing themselves.

We, as composers, always imagine directors to be on top of things, we imagine them to be strong people with an iron will. "Directors", just like their name implies they posess the power to direct a whole group of people. But if you take a moment to think about it they are just people like us with their weaknesses and doubts.

I think it is those doubts that makes them use temp tracks, it seems they are afraid of risking to use something original because of the -realistic- possibility of failure. But how can someone do something original and great if they don't risk anything? If people don't take a decisive step towards their own direction will fate simply be kind with them and bring them success? No, we make our fate.

It is OUR fault as well that directors want tamp tracks: We are insecure with our music and do not believe in our skills as we should, because we really do have the skills. If we believed in ourselves we could convince any producer that an ORIGINAL score from us has the power to move the hearts of people and make their movie a success. They would have no doubt if we believed in ourselves. 

Speaking of this insecurity, i think that most people in the world suffer daily from it, they suffer whole lifes for insecurity. All this fear of the future, of making a mistake and of failure does not let them realise their full potential since their mind has already believed that the journey will be difficult! People have to rise above all fear and step in the industry with a strong heart, believe in yourselves and what you can do an all will inevitably go well.

Mistakes and failure? There is no such thing. They are both just ways of becoming better, stronger and to learn very important lessons. Someone who has become famous and succesful but has never had any failures or difficulties is undoubtly weak and every minor thing could dethrone him easily. People that have become successful with ease underestimate the competition and are consumed by it after a while. Whenever the Romans lost a battle they never admitted their defeat, they just said "That only makes the way to success a little bit longer"

So to sum it up, both directors and composers need to be more confident and have the courage, will and patience to do their own thing. Music is not 1000 notes, 20 instruments and 50 chord changes every 4 meters, music is simply written ideas with which we communicate to other people. Have nice and truthful ideas, present what you believe is right and everyone will follow because people appreciate truth.


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## PaulR (Jun 25, 2006)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Jun 24 said:


> - and it was certainly nothing new then.
> 
> The classic example is 2001, when Kubrick threw out Alex North's score because he was used to the Blue Danube.



No nothing new at all. Kubrick was a prime example of temp track mania. In 1960 or so - although not exactly a temp track, Kubrick made a very interesting film called Lolita and asked Herrmann to write the score. Herrmann said he'd be very interested - and then Stanley K said that he could write the score BUT he would like Herrmann to incorporate his brother-in-laws (or some some such bollocks) little tune he had written into the film - and score the rest.

Herrmann immediately told Kubrick to fuck off and walked away. Another director Herrmann would never work for.


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## TheoKrueger (Jun 25, 2006)

Same PaulR, i've heard that Kubrick had hired a composer to make music for '2001: A Space Odyssey' but he chose to keep the temp track in the end again (classical music) and ditched him.


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## PaulR (Jun 25, 2006)

TheoKrueger @ Sun Jun 25 said:


> Same PaulR, i've heard that Kubrick had hired a composer to make music for '2001: A Space Odyssey' but he chose to keep the temp track in the end again (classical music) and ditched him.



I think Batz already pointed that out Theo. He hired Alex North I think and then fell so in love with the other stuff - that was it. As a matter of fact he had also looked at Pink Floyd for 2001.

A college friend of mine was actually in 2001 - no big deal or name drop here. He was one of the apes. They all had to troop over to London zoo for weeks and look at the apes - that was their temp track. haha! Kubrick was one of the greatest directors - but he was a nightmare when it came to music for his films.
He had hired Alex North about 8 years before 2001 for Spartacus - I'm not sure about the details on that though because there was a huge mare with changing the directors and producer problems. Alex North may have already been hired by a previous director.


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## TheoKrueger (Jun 25, 2006)

Oops, yes Batz mentioned it! :oops: 

Kubrick had also worked with Wendy Carlos and used music from Gyorgy Ligeti on 2001.

What a great score Clockwork Orange had! Here's some Wendy on Kubrick: 

http://www.wendycarlos.com/kubrick.html

I guess he had his own special vision of what high quality is. Can't blame him, only admire him. :shock:


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## lux (Jun 25, 2006)

People in the showbiz are probably more afraid than in the past, mostly because actually management is subject to heavy judgement on fast results. The soundalike mania is just a symptom of fear.

I think its to composers to change something in the soundalike music and see what director says. If one does just the exact copycat job imho cannot complain about directors.

Luca


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## Dr.Quest (Jun 25, 2006)

Patrick de Caumette @ Sat Jun 24 said:


> Problem is that most of the time, directors need music to cut their film to and since the composer/director relationship often happens after the fact, temps are used to facilitate the editing. Once the picture is married to music, it is very hard to introduce something else that will emotionally divorce the director from the temp and still make him/her happy...



This just isn't true. A directors doesn't need music to cut to, they use it as a crutch to make up for a lack of narrative. If they can't get a scene to work in editing they always slap some music on it to steer it the way they think it should go. I've been video editor on a few films lately and I love doing it. But i insist on getting the narrative sense of story first before any temp music goes on. It just makes for more cohesive structure.
When the narrative works then music can add to the scene. Without that narrative it's just a band-aid.
Just my 2 Cents.

J


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## fictionmusic (Jun 25, 2006)

Well even if the problem is old hat(or out of filmschool 101), it is one that almost every composer who has written to picture has had and continues to have.
For my part I agree with Jaime; good editing needn't depend on music to make the scene work (although no-one will argue that it certainly improves the whole experience). Temp tracks are not strictly necessary, and often create more problems than they solve. 

The idea that the composer should be able to bring their own sensibility to a film is not at all that common, rather they usually end up being facilitators to a director's impoverished musical ability. Kubrick for all his dramatic use of music, was a prime example of that. His choices are often enhancing to the end result, but often are a blatant misunderstanding of the innate quality of the music itself. Bartok and Ligeti didn't write horror music, but in Kubrick's understanding of the world they certainly did. While he made effective use of the music in his films (and Ligeti said the subsequent attention did him well), Kubrick seemed to see everything from a toanl perspective and anything atonal was necessarily tense or horrific. That sensibility is far more common than filmschool 101 and is more in the nature of musical retardedness than musical awareness.

I think the real problem is that most directors (indeed most people in general) dismiss film music as being second rate (often very reasonably) and have less respect for music that was written with non-musical considerations than music written for its own sake. Mars and Carmina Burana have been used to death, in their many non-copyright infringing guises, because they are pure music and not bound to any non-musical considerations. As such they often have more respect given them than some music written for a scene. I think directors identify more strongly with "pure music" and therfore want their composers to follow the sensibility that they have subsequently foisted upon it. 

I have never heard of Hermann's chagrin at Kubrick, but it certainly adds to my already huge respect of the man.


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## KevinKauai (Jun 25, 2006)

*Re: Kubrick and 2001 music*

I have an odd remembrance that I was reliably told that Kubrick was wildly over-budget (in all areas) for "2001" and that MGM told him he'd have to ax the music budget and use things from their catalog (which, I believe, included some arrangement with DGG). Now, whether the timing was _after _he had used various Struass (Richard and Johann), Lygeti, Khachaturian and other things or not, I couldn't swear, but I did also hear the quote that Alex North was "sending things over" and at one point, Kubrick just said "nevermind".

Related topic: *I *still* would love to hear the "temp track"* that George Lucas used for the first "Star Wars" (now Episode IV) before Spielberg introduced him to John Williams! What a special edition that would make -- assuming clearances could be had!

 KevinKauai


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 25, 2006)

"Well even if the problem is old hat(or out of filmschool 101), it is one that almost every composer who has written to picture has had and continues to have."

Film*scoring* school! Berklee College of Music offers a Film Scoring major.

And yes, of course this hasn't changed, for the reason I said: they get used to the temp track. I've done a couple of temp tracks - on a flatbed movieola, believe it or not - and it's very interesting.


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## fictionmusic (Jun 25, 2006)

"Film*scoring* school! Berklee College of Music offers a Film Scoring major. "

Forgive my oversight, I meant film SCORING school, and yes I know about Berklee. Although I haven't been myself, I gathered from your original post you have.


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## Thonex (Jun 25, 2006)

All good points Kid.

I'll tell you what scares the crap out of me... when a "newer" director has no temp at all.... this usually means he has no clue of what he wants... and then I'm shooting in the dark.

My usual angle on something like this (depending on how much time there is and what the budget is) is to talk to the director about pre-existing scores... what he could hear in his movie.

Temp is a double edged sword... but I usually like it.

Usually my own personality makes it way through the music and the temp was their for guidance and inspiration. But when they want a copy of the temp.... well... that sucks.

T


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## kid-surf (Jun 26, 2006)

Some good (open) thoughts happening here... I need to read it a little more closely later, not feeling too great at the moment. But didn't want to start a thread and vanish.

And thanks for the well wishes, Theo..... (do not get this bug, it sucks. 4 days and I still feel like crap. Had to cancel a trip etc.)


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## gamalataki (Jun 26, 2006)

TheoKrueger @ Sun Jun 25 said:


> I think it is those doubts that makes them use temp tracks, it seems they are afraid of risking to use something original because of the -realistic- possibility of failure. .


I've been on both sides of the temp coin. From building them for A list directors as an editor to receiving them from first time directors as a composer.
From my experience doubt is not the reason directors use temps, but in fact it IS the willingness to take a risk and explore the possibilities. In most A list cases the editor isn't given any instructions, even if the director has ideas. They're hired for their dramatic articulation and a fresh pair of ears and eyes so the director doesn't want to influence them in hopes that something great and unexpected happens. I approach temps in the same way that I approach scores, in that I try to bring a fresh voice to the production and still have it work.
Working side by side with a A list director, on a temp, is a lot more difficult (pressure wise) than writing a score for an Indie where time limitations are usually a lot looser. I usually have about three days to track an hours worth of cues, then spend two weeks addressing notes and conforming to picture cuts after the studio has had it's first and subsequent screenings. It's at the studio level where risk can get squashed. After all, it's their money.
As hard and demanding as these gigs are, it's an adrenalin rush and the best chance an editor has to be creative. Composers get temps and notes for a road map, but we editors get picture and dialog and usually nothing else. The only limitation is your imagination. Imagine being able to use everything ever recorded as your sample library, it doesn't have to be from a previous score. This may not give you the warm and fuzzies, but it's the part of my editing gig that I love the most - the blank canvas. On one temp, I was able to massage a John Powell drum groove under some Elliot Goldenthal string runs and filled it in by writing my own bridges, a vision that I had no idea if I could pull it off, but I went for it and the director loved it. My risk, not his, but you get the idea.
OK editor rant over. I've just read so many uninformed, negative remarks about editors over the years, that the vent opened.

As dismal as it may seem with the homogenization of films, not every score sounds like something else, thankfully.

Now trying to compose for a first time director who, just out of school, thinks he has to use a temp and has done a horrible job with it, yet demands it be adhered to, is really frustrating. It really all boils down to "who you work with."

Nick: I learned how to use a flatbed Kem and Movieola at Berklee too. Sandpaper fades anyone? Fortunately I haven't had to use those tools except once after moving to Cal.

_Scott


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 26, 2006)

"I think it is those doubts that makes them use temp tracks, it seems they are afraid of risking to use something original because of the -realistic- possibility of failure. ."

They also need to have people preview the film!

And yeah, Scott, Pro Tools is a much better tool for tracking than a flatbed. You used to have to have two transfers of every cue made for editing. Now you can layer things, edit much more easily, and on and on.


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## José Herring (Jun 26, 2006)

gamalataki @ Mon Jun 26 said:


> TheoKrueger @ Sun Jun 25 said:
> 
> 
> > I think it is those doubts that makes them use temp tracks, it seems they are afraid of risking to use something original because of the -realistic- possibility of failure. .
> ...



Scott,

I actually think that a good music editor is worth their weight in gold.


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## kid-surf (Jun 26, 2006)

gamalataki/Scott --

Please do not apologize for "ranting". It's hard for me to view rants as counter productive, they are the things we really 'feel'. I like to know how people REALLY feel, and what they REALLY think about all this. I take it to mean they "care". So much of the time (out there in the professional world) we've got the game face on, but underneath it is the truth and the honesty which can hopefully lead to better things (in film). Whether it's a better point of view or what have you. Or maybe sometimes people just need to vent to others going through some of the same things they are. It's all positive in my book. (after all, Hollywood is not an easy gig... it's pretty gnarly when you get down to it. And we composers don't really have a support staff... for many of us, it's just us against the world. a.k.a... Hollywood. :D )

On the time issue -- idunno. I feel like all the indie guys I run into are trying to act like there's a hard release date even when there isn't one. Conceptually I know there is more pressure on a studio film but if the dude who hired you is asking for one day turnarounds, idunno, it's the same amount of work. Maybe I just don't run into many indie guys that are as loose about it all.

On the flip -- I find I have more in common with studio directors. Many of the people I've meet and spoken with seem more open minded in terms of fresh music. (thats' a generalization, but...). The other good thing about that is they've worked with a composers before, many of the first time (feature) guys haven't. Even guys with fairly decent budgets.... (yes we already knew that, I'm just reiterating)


Editors --- I've got nothing negative to say or think about them. It's hard to point to anyone in film (other than actors :mrgreen: ) and say "their job is easy". I respect the wok everyone does. Especially agents.  

Ok.. actors too. 


Screenings --- Yep, I fully realize the importance of a temp in that sit. But like others, I (as a non editor) don't feel a film must be cut "to" music to find the pacing. That just seems logical to me. A great story teller should be able to tell a good story w/o any music at all IMO. (not a slam/dig, just a point of view about story telling through film). I know the job description is far different than my simplistic view of why films work.


Who you work with ---- True. I guess that until you (whoever) are "THE MAN" you are forced to work with folks you may not wish to otherwise. All the more incentive to be really good at this... to propel oneself to the level where they are working (at least occasionally) on films that will mean something 50 years from now. 


I'm not trying to slam anyone... but if I'm gonna work this many hours and devote my life to something this fully, then I want to work on films that are at least attempting to prove something artistically. A lot of KILLER films have been made by directors that felt/feel they have something to prove (even though they may not admit it) and will/would not allow themselves to fall victim of insecurities... not so much so that they vision has been so totally compromised that it's a ghost of the true intention.

Insecurities --- they do play a role. Yes, even at the studio level. And they start the day the dude starts writing the script on assignment. If there were none in Hollywood, this would be a way different town. But it is what it is and I'm totally cool with the way it is...

I love LA..........  (born and raised)


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## gamalataki (Jun 26, 2006)

kid-surf @ Mon Jun 26 said:


> gamalataki/Scott --
> 
> It's all positive in my book. (after all, Hollywood is not an easy gig... it's pretty gnarly when you get down to it. And we composers don't really have a support staff... for many of us, it's just us against the world. a.k.a... Hollywood. :D )
> 
> On the time issue -- idunno. I feel like all the indie guys I run into are trying to act like there's a hard release date even when there isn't one.



Kid,

No doubt that it's important to have a staff that knows when and how to fight for the music, when it's justified. When it comes right down to the end, when you're on the dub stage and the powers that be are in a music axing mood, I can't stress enough how important a knowledgeable mixer/engineer is to have as an ally. When the Indie guys are in a fever pitch about deadlines or whatever, it's good to get all the stage info so you can, not only verify the room has been booked, but take some time to talk with the music mixer and get to know him a little. There are mixers that are able to do whatever the powers that be want, then there are MIXERS who are able to say, "wait a minute, that's not a good idea because...."

BTW, you didn't get sick from bacteria in the water that was reported last week, did you? When I was a younger man, back east, all my winter vacations were surf trips to warm sunny clims - what happened to that guy - I don't know - he's rounder..... I can tell you I know what a surfing soul is, I just can't seem to find mine. :oops:


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## TheoKrueger (Jun 27, 2006)

I guess you're right, you gotta use _something_ at the temp stage where you can't rely on composers fro something gfast, and why shouldn't that be the best you can find.

btw, do you know of any movie that took a lot of years and effort in the making but became a masterpiece from all aspects in the end? Tell me of some if you remember please!


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## gamalataki (Jun 27, 2006)

> > TheoKrueger @ Tue Jun 27 said:
> >
> >
> > > I guess you're right, you gotta use _something_ at the temp stage where you can't rely on composers fro something gfast, and why shouldn't that be the best you can find.
> ...



I'm not sure I understand the question if this is, in fact, directed at me, but so not to leave you hanging. I would think all masterpieces are a result of the sum of all it's individual parts. If you have a film with a great script, direction, acting, cinematography and picture editing, all a great score (both music and sound - you've got to give lots of credit to the sound team) will do is embellish it. A great story may not even need a score to work. But, a bad score with a sub par sound or dialog track will take you out of the story and make it less enjoyable or even ruin it for the audience.

The three stages of any project are equally important: preproduction (*possibly the most important) production and postproduction.
*Preproduction is where a everything is laid out from begining to end, before a camera is even rented; you know, the who what where why and how's. Any mistake at this stage is magnified greater with each step. The old addage of, "we'll fix it post", only goes so far. Many first time filmmakers think post will take care of itself and don't plan for it. This can make the job hell for everybody involved and the project can suffer greatly.

I don't think a great score can save a horrible film. You can only fool the audience with music up to a point. From a temp editors point of view, a great score that no one has heard before is great to reuse as a temp, because it may sound fresh to the director.
Did that help??
_Scott

PS: Thanks for all your work on K2!!


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## TheoKrueger (Jun 28, 2006)

Thanks for the reply Scott! Yes it did help a lot in what you explained, but it didn't cover my question :smile:

The question was clean, asking for some really good movies that took a long time to make. LOTR and Starwars perhaps are two of those?

The reason i am asking is so i can compare a few movies that were made slowly and carefully to the sloppy, fast made action/blockbuster movies.

Re K2: Your welcome m8.


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## PaulR (Jun 28, 2006)

TheoKrueger @ Wed Jun 28 said:


> The question was clean, asking for some really good movies that took a long time to make. LOTR and Starwars perhaps are two of those?
> 
> The reason i am asking is so i can compare a few movies that were made slowly and carefully to the sloppy, fast made action/blockbuster movies.



Two that spring to mind would be Apocalypse Now and Waterworld (haha). Actually, Waterworld as an actual film is not that bad.

Conversely, Psycho took about 6 weeks.


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## TheoKrueger (Jun 28, 2006)

Yeah... :s, Kinda hard to judge from the time something took Paul


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## kid-surf (Jul 1, 2006)

Geez.... I'm still friggn sick. Hope you guys don't get this. I'm on my 7th day. And yet I was able to pull off an all-nighter.

gamalataki --- Good advice. And yes it's quite possible that I got sick from surfing. Can't tell you how many times I've gotten sick after surfing. Yet many times it's just allergies to the 'crap' in the water. But people get messed up out there just from bacteria. I forget the dude's name but this one surfer got a minor cut in (where was he? Indo?) cam back home and had to go in for brain surgery. I met this dude the other day telling me about his buddy. Scraped his knuckle on the reef in Mex. Thought it was nothing. Spent 7 days in ICU days later. Yeah it's crazy how dangerous the bacteria can be.

I'm going to surf Indo next year, I'll try to not hit the reef..... 

Glad you caught some waves in the past. I'll tell you... on of my dreams is to surf NYC in the winter time. That just seems so "core" to me. Those guys are nuts.


As to your question Theo --- I'm always amazed by how little time the composers get. And on the other end, the screenwriters on studio assignment (Assignment: like "superman" etc, not spec scripts. In case we all don't know 'assignment'), when the studio asks, through their agent, "so hows the script coming", they'll say "oh that, I haven't really gotten to that yet... i'm not _feeling_ it yet". It's amazing that writers proclaim THEY are the ones treated w/o respect. They've got it so plush.


Anyway.... I do think some films are made too fast. And the music done too quickly. I can't believe people ask for someone to turn in 85 minutes of music in two weeks. I mean, that's 'almost' physically impossible. But I guess it gets turned in. So?

I would be curious to know if/what Class-A composers haven't made their deadline on a film with a stupid amount of music needed in a couple weeks time. I don't keep up on all that stuff.... so feel free to tell stories.

Anyway..... I really believe that films are made backwards currently. 


*It should go:* They (the studio/filmmaker) asks a composer to come up with a film. So the composer writes the cues and turns them in. Then the editor (with the director at hand) temps some random scenes to fit the music. :D Then they hire a writer to write a script based on the "temp film". :lol: Hey, it's worth a shot.......... right? :mrgreen:


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## TheoKrueger (Jul 1, 2006)

I didn't know that script writers get that sort of privilidges. And they still complain :roll: 

*It should go: *haha, that would be great Kid! And you know, maybe we would see some really amazing films that way. Isn't Disneys Fantasia like that in a sense? All the Tchaikovsky music and flowers dancing etc... nice stuff.


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## ComposerDude (Jul 1, 2006)

Theo: Kid's already done a great score for flowers...though I doubt they were dancing...  

Kid: hope you're feeling better soon...

-Peter


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## NedK (Jul 1, 2006)

I was reading the other day where Prokofiev was talking about scoring for Eisenstein (Alexander Nevsky, Ivan the Terrible). He said that Eisenstein would add or cut footage so as not to disturb the "balance of a musical episode".
That's my kind of director.


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## Evan Gamble (Jul 1, 2006)

Rule of thumb..

NEVER watch a scene with temp music first, after a first veiwing if further information is needed to be communicated than a temp track is a good way of doing this.


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## D.J. (Jul 12, 2006)

Thought I'd add this for posterity:

Planet of the Apes has a Danny Elfman commentary track.
At one point he gets into a long comment on why he always refuses a gig if it means immitating a temp track in any way..... Even when the temp uses his own music from past films.....or any temp at all. He was VERY emphatic about this.

( It was very detailed and so relevant to some of the earlier posts I wanted to transcribe and post it.
But it's too long and I can't find the time right now. )


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## Desire Inspires (Feb 7, 2017)

Old thread, but I don't see a problem with copying other scores. Many of the movies themselves are derivative in theme and emotional content. 

People recycle things because, well, some things just work. Stuck with what works and fill in the blanks to appeal to a new audience.

Humanity is plagued with the same themes of love, betrayal, courage, deceit, redemption, revenge, failure, triumph, etc. It's just about presenting the same old same old in new shiny packaging. No need to put people down for copying stuff. It is the audience who decided the winners and losers out here.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 21, 2017)

Desire, the only problem with derivative music (that's the name of my ASCAP company, by the way  ) is that they already have people who can do that. Actually, why not just hire the original person?

That's not to say there isn't a place for soundalikes or paraphrasing, but every top composer has his or her own point of view!


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## Mojo Bone (Mar 11, 2017)

Patrick de Caumette said:


> Problem is that most of the time, directors need music to cut their film to and since the composer/director relationship often happens after the fact, temps are used to facilitate the editing. Once the picture is married to music, it is very hard to introduce something else that will emotionally divorce the director from the temp and still make him/her happy...



Yeah, that applies if they've already cut picture to music, but usually, it's the other way 'round. Maybe if you can better support the story with different music, they'd wanna recut the visuals? I don't know if this has ever happened, because historically, music has always been cheaper than picture. X number of cameras and extras, but usually one or two composers, whut I meant.


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## Mojo Bone (Mar 11, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Desire, the only problem with derivative music (that's the name of my ASCAP company, by the way  ) is that they already have people who can do that. Actually, why not just hire the original person?
> 
> That's not to say there isn't a place for soundalikes or paraphrasing, but every top composer has his or her own point of view!



Which is why Taxi folk will tell you that soundalikes and paraphrasing are a dead end. My advice would be to develop a sound that's unique to you, and remember that the tools most of us use are available to everyone.


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## Mojo Bone (Mar 11, 2017)

Mojo Bone said:


> Which is why Taxi folk will tell you that soundalikes and paraphrasing are a dead end. My advice would be to develop a sound that's unique to you, and remember that the tools most of us use are available to everyone.


Or in other words, if you want to sound unique, go the extra mile. Shit, Kilometer, whatever.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 11, 2017)

In the early '90s when he was getting ready to start, I told Michael Laskow that Taxi wasn't a plausible business.

See? Everyone should always listen to me.


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## Desire Inspires (Mar 14, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Desire, the only problem with derivative music (that's the name of my ASCAP company, by the way  ) is that they already have people who can do that. Actually, why not just hire the original person?
> 
> That's not to say there isn't a place for soundalikes or paraphrasing, but every top composer has his or her own point of view!



Well, people get soundalikes because it cheaper than getting the original composer.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 14, 2017)

Sure. As I wrote, there's a place for soundalikes and paraphrasing.

But there are a lot more people who can do that than there are people who have your unique point of view.


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## Mojo Bone (Mar 15, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> In the early '90s when he was getting ready to start, I told Michael Laskow that Taxi wasn't a plausible business.
> 
> See? Everyone should always listen to me.


It amazes me the number of people who are perfectly willing to part with $299/yr so they can pretend they're in the music business. I think the figure is something like 70% of the members never submit anything in a given year, but as I've said elsewhere, it works if you work.


More to the topic, they do say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 15, 2017)

I hope my point is clear: I was totally wrong!


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