# Vienna Dimension Brass



## Justus (Jan 11, 2011)

http://vsl.co.at/en/65/71/1942/1596.vsl


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## Danny_Owen (Jan 11, 2011)

Didn't see that one coming. Cool.


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## Melodioso (Jan 11, 2011)

Looks/sounds interesting! Isn't it weird though that the people at VSL didn't even bother announcing their new product on their forum?


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## Ed (Jan 11, 2011)

Melodioso @ Tue Jan 11 said:


> Looks/sounds interesting! Isn't it weird though that the people at VSL didn't even bother announcing their new product on their forum?



This either means its so amazingly cool they want buzz to take care of the promotion or its so crap that they just want it to go away and hope no one notices.


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## Ed (Jan 11, 2011)

Ok I'm listening to it now, and it sounds really good (ie. realistic) but it sounds MONO like its only the spot mics or something.

Urgh. I guess I'll have to wait till Hollywood Brass to get the sound I want.


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## Hicks (Jan 11, 2011)

I love the concept!

It is like Symphobia but with the choice of the orchestration and the plenty of articulations from VSL. It is what was missing within Symphobia!


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## futur2 (Jan 11, 2011)

not a big vienna fan but to me this reads and sounds like pure genius!


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## stonzthro (Jan 11, 2011)

Sounds great! The price seems a little weird:

Regular price: $595 
Introductory price: $625

But that's pretty much what Eastwest does - only they don't draw attention to it like that.


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## Ian Dorsch (Jan 11, 2011)

Yeah, I wonder if that's some kind of a typo...?

But I agree, it looks fantastic, and would fill some holes in my template beautifully.


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## Markus S (Jan 11, 2011)

Awesome revolutionary concept, love it!


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## dcoscina (Jan 11, 2011)

Nice demo. I like the auto divisi feature a lot. Herb on the VSL site said the pricing is a typo. If the difference in price is only $30 I will wait and see how East West Hollywood Brass sounds like. I must say, I love the Vienna Pro player but I also agree that some of the sounds appear to be mono or single mic. I wouldn't mind a fuller ballsier sound in some instances. Tuba from EWQLSO still gets a lot of airplay for me. It's a nice blatty sound.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jan 11, 2011)

Hmm...sounds very weird. Almost Mono-like. They really dint pay any attention to this video this time. 

I need to hear more accurate demos.


Tanuj,


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 11, 2011)

In the UK it's £595 regular, £415 introductory.

And lo, the year of brass begins...


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## jamwerks (Jan 11, 2011)

I take it that these are new recordings compared to the other brass libraries. There are fewer articulations compared to the big "Brass I + extended", but here the interest seems to be on the ensemble sound. Pretty impressive! I could see using this for 50-75% of the stuff then adding eventually other VSL brass instruments for needed articulations.

I see there’s and introductory offer, but I’m surprised that there’s apparently no specific discount for VSL brass library owners. True these are new recordings, but giving 10-15% off to loyal customers would seem to make sense, especially with other great libraries from competitors on the way. o=<


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## germancomponist (Jan 11, 2011)

I think Andrew with his divisi feature in LASS has revolutionized the sample libraries world. 

Interesting


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## Ashermusic (Jan 11, 2011)

germancomponist @ Tue Jan 11 said:


> I think Andrew with his divisi feature in LASS has revolutionized the sample libraries world.
> 
> Interesting



Interesting in that I have LASS and another library that features it but never use it. For me 1st and 2nd violins are two different instruments whose parts I must play in individually.

However, if I were in a time crunch, I might very well use it.


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## Andrew Aversa (Jan 11, 2011)

This sounds like just what I was looking for. I've been using the QLSO Brass instruments up until now - nothing else quite fit the bill for orchestral/cinematic brass sounds (well, ProjectSAM, but that's older and didn't quite have the up-front feel I was looking for.) This has nice RRs (seemingly), divisi and legato. Perfect.


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## Farkle (Jan 11, 2011)

zircon_st @ Tue Jan 11 said:


> This sounds like just what I was looking for. I've been using the QLSO Brass instruments up until now - nothing else quite fit the bill for orchestral/cinematic brass sounds (well, ProjectSAM, but that's older and didn't quite have the up-front feel I was looking for.) This has nice RRs (seemingly), divisi and legato. Perfect.



Second that, Zircon. I just posted about how to get my brass sounding better. I have SAM brass, and Vienna old VSL, and I just didn't like them for the sweeping, more agile cinematic stuff. This looks to be the perfect blend of ensemble playing!

Hm... maybe have to bust out the credit card again. 

Mike


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## bluejay (Jan 11, 2011)

germancomponist @ Tue Jan 11 said:


> I think Andrew with his divisi feature in LASS has revolutionized the sample libraries world.
> 
> Interesting



Although you've been able to do brass auto-divisi in WIVI for 2-3 years now. 

Not the LASS Auto-arranger isn't awesome, it definitely is!


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## jamwerks (Jan 11, 2011)

Ashermusic @ Tue Jan 11 said:


> Interesting in that I have LASS and another library that features it but never use it. For me 1st and 2nd violins are two different instruments whose parts I must play in individually.


 Divisi are of course inside each group, and involve assigning patches using smaller groups. I know that you must know that, but your response would make believe otherwise.

Though "unison & divisi" don’t usually apply to winds or brass, this "auto-div." feature in Vienna Instruments Pro really makes sense now that a note can be played a4 (4 players on the same note), then 4 different notes (1 instrument per note), all on the same track. o-[][]-o


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## José Herring (Jan 11, 2011)

It seems pretty good. I didn't mind the mono sound too much. Makes it pretty easy to place in the stereo field. 

Would love to see Hollywood Brass use a similar div approach but with more mic positions.

best,


Jose


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## Mike Connelly (Jan 11, 2011)

Looks like a great strategy and fantastic functionality, I just wish I liked the sound better. I still think an approach that includes some modeling is going to give the most playable results for brass (canned crescendos of various timings? yuck), but for a sampled brass library it's great to see multiple layered solo instruments instead of some sort of 1/2/4 on a part hack.

I don't think anyone expected a new brass library from Vienna, particularly one that broke away from their usual sampling strategy. That makes two brass libraries actually announced for this year, I wonder how many more we'll see.


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 11, 2011)

I liked the sound, the fast stuff in particular sounded really convincing, I'm sure the best I've heard to date. But the thing that's giving me pause is that it seems pretty complicated. I don't know if I can face yet another steep learning curve. That VI Pro thing... it just puts me right off. All those pitch graphics and... I DON'T WANNA KNOW! I want that to be all under the hood, a few simple buttons, voicing priority, sure and MAYBE one big humanzing knob. While I'm moaning, the VSL matrix cell thing gives me the heebies too. It looks about as musical as brick.

Especially when it comes to real instruments, I'm not a tweeker. I just wanna play. Wivi band looks at my level! Just wish the sound was better....

PS - I may be in a curmudgeonly mood this evening, sorry!


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## Dietz (Jan 11, 2011)

VI Pro's "Basic View" is your friend 

-> http://vsl.co.at/images/vipro/Basicview.htm


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## Wunderhorn (Jan 11, 2011)

i generally like the vienna instrument.
however i would be very interested in finding out if there will be a brass library by audio bro. i use LASS and i am impressed by its straightforward playability. sustain, legato and portamento is right at your fingertips without having to spend hours to set it up.
of course the fact that kontakt has matured and is now able to provide a stable player software makes the concept of LASS be a one of my favorite approaches of sample libraries.

today i think it gets more and more important to bring the features that control the playability under the hood. options and parameters are nice when you need them, but far more important is to be able to work with these instruments without a big learning curve and without studying manuals. there are just way too many technical details we have to keep up with as a natural side effect of increasing complexity in all the related technological developments.

i feel somehow that by the end of the year we might have a few new options...


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 11, 2011)

Dietz @ Tue Jan 11 said:


> VI Pro's "Basic View" is your friend
> 
> -> http://vsl.co.at/images/vipro/Basicview.htm



Certainly better, but that damn cell is still there... and a knob marked Slot x-fade even in simple view doesn't sound THAT simple!

+1 to Wunderhorn's post...


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## jamwerks (Jan 12, 2011)

The expressive possibilities behind that window are so powerfull that after a few hours of digging in, you’ll never look back. o-[][]-o


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## Pietro (Jan 12, 2011)

Sounds almost classical. Very interesting, I even like it!

Also, think of how this thing can improve your brass arrangement/orchestration studies!

- Piotr


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## Mike Connelly (Jan 12, 2011)

Wunderhorn @ Tue Jan 11 said:


> however i would be very interested in finding out if there will be a brass library by audio bro.



They haven't come out and confirmed it, but from the hints they've dropped it sure sounds like it. Who knows when though.


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## Pzy-Clone (Jan 12, 2011)

This is kewl, not the meaty chunky hairsack type of sound "most" of "us " are waiting for i think...but nontheless very interesting.

...but it still sounds very in line with their exisiting concept...so i will be waiting for some demo material to se how much of an impact this makes on the final result, beyond the novelty of writing and arranging proper Brass parts, offcourse.

Which is no small feature, ...but imo ...finer nuances are lost in a crowded sample composition, ...so theres gotta be a real sonic impact at the end of the day as well...not only a technical one...u know, if the end result still sounds like a typical sampled VSL brass part with convolution reverb on top of it, well i`m not sure why i should bother using 4 times more system resources , not to mention buying that VI pro upgrade.

But anyway...i do hope they do Dimension Winds....that would be perfect i think...especially if they expand the articulation list 


Oh and i seem to recall that there is yet another Brass library being worked on as well atm...something slightly more "cinematic"...


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## KMuzzey (Jan 12, 2011)

Hey Dietz, what's the reverb used in the Dimension Brass demo video? The video sounds fantastic...

Kerry


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## SvK (Jan 12, 2011)

1 question:

What room was it recorded in?
No features, no RRs etc can save the silent-stage.

Ps: the day Vienna Records On a proper sound-stage will be a good day.

SvK


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## germancomponist (Jan 12, 2011)

SvK @ Wed Jan 12 said:


> Ps: the day Vienna Records On a proper sound-stage will be a good day.
> 
> SvK



I think then I would buy many VSL stuff. o/~


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## gsilbers (Jan 12, 2011)

germancomponist @ Wed Jan 12 said:


> SvK @ Wed Jan 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Ps: the day Vienna Records On a proper sound-stage will be a good day.
> ...



+1 on both comments.


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## dcoscina (Jan 12, 2011)

I'm a little surprised to hear these sentiments towards VSL. I own as much Project SAM and East West as the next guy (and Audio Bro) but have a healthy share of VSL products that I find indispensable when I have to deliver finished quality music to a client. 

I'm interested in Hollywood Brass like everyone else but, honestly, I still have some problems with Hollywood Strings as far as release/sample cut-offs are concerned. A brass library from Andrew, for me, is probably the most exciting prospect because LA Scoring Strings, still to this day, can sound like the real thing. They mix exceedingly well with VSL too because they are both very detailed sounding libraries, not gushy mushy epicness (hey, don't get me wrong, I like that sound too!). 

I'm working on a cue that employs John Adams and Phil Glass like minimalist figures and I have used 90% VSL on it with some help from LA Scoring Strings and it sounds BIG but detailed as well. I had initially wanted to use some EW stuff and SAM stuff but they are too vacuous for the sound I need. So I for one am seriously considering this Dimension Brass package. Oh wait, dammit, if I buy this it screws up my New Year's Resolution. #*$&*#$&#*!!!!


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## Pzy-Clone (Jan 12, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Wed Jan 12 said:


> SvK @ Wed Jan 12 said:
> 
> 
> > No features, no RRs etc can save the silent-stage.
> ...



Sure, and it very possible to make it sound good...however, imo other libraries, especially the new stuff...sounds better, and could you imagine what Guy Baccos`s demos would sound like if he had used Lass, or Eastwest etc.?
Nope, we will never know...sadly.
And at what cost? Time and money....u know.

"Disregarding" the sound (!) the strenght of VSL is , as i see it...are the available articulations, attention to detail, flexibility and choice..., but still i always find myself needing to layer in other libraries, becouse i dont get the needed fatness from VSL alone, just the detail.

So In smaller doses VSL is great to layer in your template, but i dunno....i have to agree with SVK...there are some serious issues with the Silent stage, the further you go down the frequency range, the more resosant and quite frankly unusable notes you will find....take the Appassionata basses for example...ghastly, one single sustained note can drive any mix into full red alert , now try that at the same level with EW, or any other current library....and its fine...

IF the VIpro player thingy would give us the option to edit the keyranges, samples and layers...it could be fixed, remove the worst samples etc, but noooo ,. you have to micro eq out all the resonance, and by the time you get a clean sounding instrument, you will have removed almost all the low mids and bass.

But not only the low range, there are equally nasty resonance in the high mids, but those can be rectified without causing so much damage to the sound imo.


Still i`m all for VSL, i have some of their stuff for sure, i just dont get why they wont listen to what people say....u know, that alot of folks DONT like the silent stage at all, even if that is their "concept".
They could still record "dry-ish"...just in a better sounding room!!!!


So maybe they tried to do something else here, dont know yet.
But i love the aproach tho....undecided, still about the sound it produces.

Anyway that`s my rant, the only reason im bitchin about it, is becouse i spendt way to much time trying to get a good sound from VSL, when i`m sure my time could have been better spendt doing something more rewarding....like, say...writing music.

But i dont get why they arent putting up a bunch of proper demos ...so we dont have to speculate.


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## gsilbers (Jan 12, 2011)

dcoscina @ Wed Jan 12 said:


> I'm a little surprised to hear these sentiments towards VSL. I own as much Project SAM and East West as the next guy (and Audio Bro) but have a healthy share of VSL products that I find indispensable when I have to deliver finished quality music to a client.
> 
> I'm interested in Hollywood Brass like everyone else but, honestly, I still have some problems with Hollywood Strings as far as release/sample cut-offs are concerned. A brass library from Andrew, for me, is probably the most exciting prospect because LA Scoring Strings, still to this day, can sound like the real thing. They mix exceedingly well with VSL too because they are both very detailed sounding libraries, not gushy mushy epicness (hey, don't get me wrong, I like that sound too!).
> 
> I'm working on a cue that employs John Adams and Phil Glass like minimalist figures and I have used 90% VSL on it with some help from LA Scoring Strings and it sounds BIG but detailed as well. I had initially wanted to use some EW stuff and SAM stuff but they are too vacuous for the sound I need. So I for one am seriously considering this Dimension Brass package. Oh wait, dammit, if I buy this it screws up my New Year's Resolution. #*$&*#$&#*!!!!



no doubt we are minority here. 
i wonder if its an EU vs US thing but this forum is such a small cut of composers world wide its hard to tell. in LA i dont see much of vsl but it might be my circle and even we use SOME vsl. the epic horns is good for example. 
i see more sonnox but that might be because the .gig files are not protected and those could of been leaked all over LA. at the end its a matter of taste. i for example dont like east west at all. hollywood string is the only one that i like the sound but i agree with you that the programming is not up to par with LASS and others. 
the other EW libraries are just OK, but newcomers cinesamples and tonehammer make sooooo much better libs. EW i think has some clever marketing which i almost fell for it until i got the terpack and realize its not THAT good. its just ok sounding. 
i think vsl was doing a similar terapack thing ? maybe ill try the new brass.


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## SvK (Jan 12, 2011)

If you gave me the EW Hollywood string Recordings with the Vienna technology, I would be the happiest person ever.

SvK


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## dcoscina (Jan 12, 2011)

EW is fine but the difference to my ears is that EW samples sound like a terrific orchestra via CD. It's the sound you hear when listening to a CD. VSL has captured that "concert hall" sound. I have been struck by how good VSL sounds whenever I'm at a live concert and find that the real orchestra sounds very much the same as VSL, mostly in terms of timbre. 

Perhaps VSL is a pain to EQ and record with. I'm the first to admit that engineering is low on my list- composing it the first thing so I let slide some of the sonic imperfections. I recently bought the BRASS II library with the terrific Holiday offer as well as the VSL Exploration Kit and this is serious stuff.

Interestingly, if you go through YouTube, tons of people have posted their music using Symphobia and East West products, but very few use VSL. Is this because VSL is too expensive for novices or perhaps because you actually have to know something about orchestration to get the full benefits from it? It's probably a bit of both and truthfully, a lot of the EWQLSO I hear on their are equally wretched in terms of orchestration. So it's not a clear cut case by any stretch. 

As far as players go, VI PRO is the best. I wish it was as easy in Kontakt to change around KS, or create a multi patch also being able to alter x-fade velocities/volume between instruments. VI PRO does this. 

I don't want this to be an ad for VSL although it is under the announcement of their brass dimension library. I like what I hear from the demo and to my ears, it sounds really great. 

I would say since the VI PRO came out, incidentally, I use VSL libraries 90% of the time. I love their Upright Bass BTW> it's sweeeet.


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## germancomponist (Jan 12, 2011)

My ears are telling me that the walls of their recording space (silent stage) seem to be very hard. Are they made of concrete, perhaps?


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## dcoscina (Jan 12, 2011)

One other thing- if you listen to the demo of the Rite of Spring by Jay Bacal, ask yourself if any other library, single library that is, could achieve that level of realism and expression. There's no way in hell EWQLSO could in its present incarnation. I even doubt Sonivox could (I mean, what's with that library? It doesn't sound worth the $3000 to me but I might be in the minority).


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## José Herring (Jan 12, 2011)

SvK @ Wed Jan 12 said:


> 1 question:
> 
> What room was it recorded in?
> No features, no RRs etc can save the silent-stage.
> ...



The day they use something other than small diaphragm condenser spot mics will be an even better day. :lol:


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## germancomponist (Jan 12, 2011)

dcoscina @ Wed Jan 12 said:


> One other thing- if you listen to the demo of the Rite of Spring by Jay Bacal, ask yourself if any other library, single library that is, could achieve that level of realism and expression.



This is for sure true. I only don`t like the sound from their recording space what is in the samples.


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## dcoscina (Jan 12, 2011)

I don't want to turn this into a bash EW by virtue of defending VSL but I have found some pretty glaring problems with HS. On some velocity levels, you hear some pretty bad ambient noise, like a mic stand falling or being moved. And the releases or cut off of some samples renders the patch unusable to me in other cases. So all the great mics in the world don't add up to diddly if the interface or things inherent in the sample themselves yield these problems. And look, I do like many things about HS just to be clear. Some of its sounds are gorgeous. but I think it's a little narrow minded to use some of these arguments on VSL when every developer suffers from one issue or another.


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## Ashermusic (Jan 12, 2011)

dcoscina @ Wed Jan 12 said:


> One other thing- if you listen to the demo of the Rite of Spring by Jay Bacal, ask yourself if any other library, single library that is, could achieve that level of realism and expression. There's no way in hell EWQLSO could in its present incarnation. I even doubt Sonivox could (I mean, what's with that library? It doesn't sound worth the $3000 to me but I might be in the minority).



I have deep respect for Jay and his skills, but that does not sound "real" to me. Not even close. And given the ton of time he spent on it, he probably could do a similarly good job with some other libraries, if he were to become familiar with them.

I will now embarrass Colin by pointing out that he has done pieces for a number of libraries and made them all sound good. And Roberto has also done so with some older less advanced libraries that do not feature things that people deem important, like true legato.

It's the guy more than the gear.

And personally I like the sound of the Sonivox library a lot.


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## dannthr (Jan 12, 2011)

Anyone else find this layout a bit odd?

4 Trumpets
4 Horns
6 Trombones
1 Bass Trombone
1 Tuba?


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## Pietro (Jan 12, 2011)

Heh, 4 trumpets, but 4 horns and only 1 bass trombone. Yeah, that's a little odd .

I wonder if the low brass section is actually different recording or the two tenor trombones are the same as from the 4 tenor trombones (?) section.

- Piotr


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## dannthr (Jan 12, 2011)

The sample content seems to suggest that these are separately recorded trombones, as the articulations are meant to mirror the content of the brass in the same grouping.

And the implication in the video demonstration is that each of the instruments within the 4 ensembles were recorded together.


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## dannthr (Jan 12, 2011)

Mustache? What mustache?

No mustache but there is some hair beneath his nose...


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## JJP (Jan 12, 2011)

:lol: I think it's meant to be four 4-player ensembles, not necessarily one big ensemble with an augmented trombone section. o-[][]-o


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## handz (Jan 12, 2011)

JJP @ Wed Jan 12 said:


> dannthr @ Wed Jan 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone else find this layout a bit odd?
> ...



In the 6 bones way. And four hornsy only, some romantic compositions used more then four.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 12, 2011)

That's the instruments available, but it is you who decides the combination you want to do: 4-3-2-1 or 2-2-2-1 or 3-2-1-1 etc

The video explains it well.


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## dannthr (Jan 12, 2011)

I know, I just thought it was odd.

Felt like a last ditch attempt at Symphobia mimicry with little thought to the overall ensemble potential.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 12, 2011)

What is odd?


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## a.leung (Jan 12, 2011)

Hmmm. If your going to compare it with Symphobia ok- i guess.  But I'd say its symphobia with more choices.


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## dcoscina (Jan 12, 2011)

a.leung @ Wed Jan 12 said:


> Hmmm. If your going to compare it with Symphobia ok- i guess.  But I'd say its symphobia with more choices.



Allan, the voice of reason!

I totally see more flexibility with this library. 

as a sidenote, my favourite forum member compositions are largely ones done with mostly VSL samples. Guy and Alex Temple use VSL extensively and I'm floored by their abilities- but moreover at their musicality. 

Obviously this has to do with taste more than sound physics. Some like the VSL sound, some don't. I listened to Nick Phoenix's demos of his new Spaces convo verb and while the 'verb sounds awesome, I really didn't care for the music in the demos which to me is kinda that mega-produced Hollywood sound that I've come to really dislike in recent years. That's MY taste and I would be the first to champion Nick's ablilities because he's a solid composer, no question. It's just the approach is one I don't care for (translation: probably not going to be working on Hollywood film scores in this lifetime myself).

I'm still intrigued by Hollywood Brass but probably more with Andrew K's possible brass library (if he is in fact coming out with one). Truthfully, I'm very biased about brass 'cause I was a brass player for oh, 10 years plus. Having played trombone and sitting in a brass group for that long makes you very aware of brass instruments. I would put it to most of you fellars- how much experience do you all have with real brass? Just curious.


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## Mike Connelly (Jan 13, 2011)

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned no mutes, I guess that would be an expansion pack to this down the road or they just assume you'll use the ones in their other Brass packs.



dcoscina @ Wed Jan 12 said:


> One other thing- if you listen to the demo of the Rite of Spring by Jay Bacal, ask yourself if any other library, single library that is, could achieve that level of realism and expression. There's no way in hell EWQLSO could in its present incarnation. I even doubt Sonivox could (I mean, what's with that library? It doesn't sound worth the $3000 to me but I might be in the minority).



Limiting to "single library" is an arbitrary distinction, if you could mix and match different libraries for the different sections (Spitfire percussion, etc) I'd bet it would be possible to get results at least that good. If you had to get just one package for everything, sure, but working composers don't have that limitation.



dcoscina @ Wed Jan 12 said:


> So all the great mics in the world don't add up to diddly if the interface or things inherent in the sample themselves yield these problems.



Amen to that. As competitive as sample libraries are today, recording and programming both have to be nailed. It's not good enough to just do a killer job on one and half baked on the other.



dannthr @ Wed Jan 12 said:


> The sample content seems to suggest that these are separately recorded trombones, as the articulations are meant to mirror the content of the brass in the same grouping.
> 
> And the implication in the video demonstration is that each of the instruments within the 4 ensembles were recorded together.



That is odd. My guess would be maybe their recording space is only big enough to do four instruments at a time with that particular spot mic/isolation setup? Seems like it would make more sense to do 4 trumpet, 6 horn, then 4 bones (and 3 would probably be enough for most cases) along with tuba. I wonder if the two bones in the section with the tuba are the same players in the 4 bone section or different ones?

Really, who would think of splitting orchestral brass into four groups? I think it's a great idea to split sections into individual players like this, just an odd choice of numbers.


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## FireGS (Jan 13, 2011)

I dont think the numbers are odd at all. To me, this isnt a REPLACEMENT for all of VSL's other brass, its just an augmentation of it. Why couldn't one just use the Trumpets, Horns, and Tbones from Dimension, and use the other VSL Bass Tbone and Tuba? Or add another solo horn to make a 5 section. or use Epic Horns + dimension horns in a massive 8-4 divisi? 

I dont think they meant this to totally replace all of their brass.


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## dannthr (Jan 13, 2011)

I guess I don't quite "get" it--I feel like there was a missed opportunity to bring their brass to a new level.

The 4 Trombones Ensemble doesn't make sense.

If I got this, I would be seeking to have a new core brass ensemble. 4 Tpts, 4 Hns, 3 Tbns (2+1Bass), 1 Tba.

Why not make the 4 Tbn more like an extension--2 Tpts, 2 Hns or something like that.

I know there are a lot of VSL fans here, and that's fair, I'm not one of them, but I also know that a lot of the folks here that use VSL, are not fond of their brass (outside of a few exceptional patches). Some consider it one of VSL's weak points.

To this, it feels like they missed the boat. A great opportunity.

I'm just being very critical right now.

There are a lot of good things I like about this--in fact, I wish more libraries were arranged in this way--in divisi ensembles with the mind toward actual 4-part horn or trumpet writing, hopefully that will be the case in the future.

The Brass Choir has been neglected far too long because samples are either solo or ensemble only. So this is a great leap toward what I would consider more elegant and considered brass writing with samples.

I'll wait for more demos (Guy?) to pass judgement on the sound, the video wasn't really meant for that.

I still don't "get" why you wouldn't want to consider the overall ensemble qualities--why you would have 6 trombones... at all... seems like poor planning.

And to Sam, I mean... 12 horns is just ridiculous.

I can appreciate that VSL is afraid to out-date their VI products... but why not move forward? Instead of sideways? Hm? I like that they're really pushing the capabilities of their VI software, they should be doing that, but I don't see how adding epic horns to the mix outside of accenting or layering will really fill out this--Maybe if we're talking... balancing out Fanfare Trumpets (6) and Epic Horns (8) with Dimension T-bones (6)... but that seems a stretch.


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## FireGS (Jan 13, 2011)

I think you missed my point. I was being ridiculous with the 12 horns (Wait though, Cape Fear..?).

The Low Brass is already arranged, Tube and BTbone with 2 tbones an octave above. Thats WRITTEN and already arranged for a specific sound. It's not meant to be a part of the standard Brass Choir as you put it. Think of it as CineOrch's Low Chords. Dont use the Low Brass patch for the standard lineup. Use VSL's solo Bass Tbone and Tuba for that. They wanted to give us a nice new low color outside of the regular Brass choir, that both made use of the autodivisi, and all of the new features of Dimension Brass that couldnt be done with a solo Tuba or Solo Bass Tbone.

To say that its 6 tbones is simply incorrect. (Well no, there ARE indeed 6, actually 7) I dont think they were all meant to be used at once, but theres nothing stopping you. The low brass was meant to give a very characteristic sound and make use of the auto divisi.

Again, I seriously don't feel that they made Dimension Brass to replace ALL of the VSL Brass, but mearly to augment it in a way that none of the current VSL brass can.


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## Mike Connelly (Jan 13, 2011)

dannthr @ Thu Jan 13 said:


> The 4 Trombones Ensemble doesn't make sense.
> 
> If I got this, I would be seeking to have a new core brass ensemble. 4 Tpts, 4 Hns, 3 Tbns (2+1Bass), 1 Tba.



Totally agreed. Most low brass writing is going to be 3+1 so that would have been the most usable for this sort of library. I assume they split out the tuba because the groups were recorded in a room together - the players could hear each other and didn't wear headphones, they tried to keep bleed to a minimum but with tuba an octave lower that probably was the one case where bleed was noticeable. Maybe they should have made that the one exception and put the tuba in a separate isolated room playing along with the others and hearing them on headphones.

Also, the low brass patch is very limited in range, tops out an octave below middle C - seems like that whole group was created for very limited use, and a way to fit tuba into the library.


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## FireGS (Jan 13, 2011)

Exactly. It was an additional patch, to add some low end with Divisi. It's not meant to represent the "standard" Brass Lineup.


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## jamwerks (Jan 13, 2011)

dannthr @ Thu Jan 13 said:


> The 4 Trombones Ensemble doesn't make sense.



Have you watched the video demo? What you’re calling 6 trombones is explained there. For a low brass ensemble sound, you’ve got Tuba, bass bone & 2 tenor bones. It’s an ensemble, and you can take out any of those elements. If you don’t want that characteristic big ensemble (Hollywood) sound, just use the Tuba from the Brass I library. You probably wouldn’t use that ensemble simultaneaously with the tenor trombone ensemble.

For once a sample maker goes to extra mile, and people seem lost? >8o


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## FireGS (Jan 13, 2011)

Yeah, I guess people didn't watch the video.


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## Mike Connelly (Jan 13, 2011)

I saw the video, I just don't see that particular choice as one that gives value to the user. Seems more like that particular choice was dictated more by the limitations of their recording space than what would be most useful. But if it provides exactly what you want, enjoy.


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## FireGS (Jan 13, 2011)

The option that wouldnt give value to the user would be to simply omit it. How does giving someone more options give less value? 

It's not like VSL has never sampled a solo Bass Tbone, or Tuba... >_>


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## jamwerks (Jan 13, 2011)

Anyone who works regularly with live orchestras probably feels the difference between 1, 2 3 or 4 horns (or the other sections) on a line, Or even when not playing unison, there is some kind of melding of the frequencies when a group is involved. On the Dimension demo, that was the first time I (personally) ever got even a tad of that feeling from samples. I’m eager to hear some demo within a full orchestral context! o-[][]-o


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## dannthr (Jan 13, 2011)

Honestly, I'm more interested in other sample makers' response to this product.

But I agree with you, Jamwerks, about the feeling of ensemble size.


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## FireGS (Jan 13, 2011)

I think its FINALLY a push in the right direction. VSL's usually the first opening bid at a higher cost due to exclusivitytitytyty (I cant spell). Then, as the trend goes, other devs come out with newer, and different approaches, and generally for lest cost, unless its more encompassing.


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## jamwerks (Jan 13, 2011)

Yeah, this might set a new standard in Brass ensemble samples, and woo to he who comes out with new products not up to snuff! The proof will be in the upcoming demos.

I’ve read several questions regarding recording technics for this library, all gone unanswered. VSL may be on to some new magic here. They’ve recently stated not having a "Dimension Winds" in the works, but having many new products on the burners. Thats alway great news. If these new technics prove productive, they might make for some magic strings (solo, a2, a4 a8 ensembles all recorded together, for example, giving countless color possibilities).

As for their prices, well I’d hate to see a picture of their employee parking lot. When even the secretary comes to work in a Lamborghini, you know they’re doing well! :mrgreen:


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## Hicks (Jun 21, 2011)

Hi all,

I am pretty sold with VSL Dimension Brass.
I know this kind of Brass War concept.
But for me Cinebrass is missing a lot of stuff (1 layer on solo horn) and no divisi, even if the soound is great.

I am still frightened by Play 3 on HB, and marketing focus on fff samples makes me run away (Don't like this big hollywood sound). But if we can create intimate sound with this library, it gonna be a killer.

On the other side, I do love VI Pro nad the concept of Dimension Brass.
I want to write something on paper and then open my DAW and put what is in paper directly in one layer.
That's what makes me goign away also from HB. Even if there are some divisi, you will need to multiply your layers (and your time) to write what you have in mind.
For example, four horns playing sometimes in divisi, means:
4 layers of solo horn
2Layers of a2
1 layer of a4

I would need to play each layer separately...

Ok, so with VI Pro, one layer is sufficient and a not a lot of tweak (VI Pro is really a killer).

So +1 for VSL.

However, what matters the most is the sound. I have listened and listened audios from vsl website. Each time brass is too much in front of the mix which make it sound weird. 2 examples got brass in the back and sounds great.
Imperial march is great with brass in the back (and sordino sound is missing).

http://www.vsl.co.at/Player2.aspx?Lang=1&DemoID=5782

For fortissimo stuff, Prey in hiding is great but still upfront (btw, strings at 1.42 are great):

http://www.vsl.co.at/Player2.aspx?Lang=1&DemoID=5861

Regarding trumpets, Liberty and honor shows that the sound is ok, and divisi possibilities are great.

http://www.vsl.co.at/Player2.aspx?Lang=1&DemoID=5793

But what about solo instruments!
I don't really like the sound of VSL solo horn (the old one). And I would like to know if the four horn available have a different sounding and if they can be used as solo instrument, as for example the solo horn from the leia's theme. Same question for trumpet and especially tuba.

Thanks a lot for your help.


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## José Herring (Jun 21, 2011)

Honestly, I'd wait a couple of weeks until HB comes or at least give cinebrass a chance when the full thing comes out in Sept.

Of all the Dimension Brass demos both official and user demos that I've heard, I've only heard 1 that even vaguely resembled a brass section. Imo, VSL really screwed the pooch on this one. It's a dog to my ears.


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## Guy Bacos (Jun 21, 2011)

Hicks, you're on the right track, I am looking forward to trying dimension brass with Hybrid Reverb as soon as I get a chance, I really like the possibilities of hybrid. You also recently showed a brilliant string demo using VSL strings how effective it can be when programmed well, and this is something no other string library would of given you, your determination paid off. The out of the box ready to use libraries are fine and dandy, but their focus is much more limited in flexibilities. Your string piece was quite unique thanks to good programming, that's what it's all about. Some extra adaptation may be needed for DB using Hybrid for a certain room effect. It's all part of it. Expect the next 20 posts to say the opposite of what I just said.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jun 21, 2011)

I just watched the DB Video again and it sounds really good. 

I think, the demos are good but they are concert music-like and they dont seem to have been written around the strengths of the samples.

Guy Bacos does some excellent demos of how VSL can be used to do concert music. But it certainly does not mean that VSL samples cannot be used to write more at-home stuff, cinematic in nature. 

The only thing in the video that I did not relate to were the horns. 

But this has been an issue with VSL for quite sometime. They need to do more realistic demos as well so that people can at least see what all VSL can do. 

I have been a long VSL user and can relate to this but perhaps newer users are not able to relate to this issue. 

For example the Neo demo done with Dimension Brass. Its great but not that realistic. You can do a better job with the older Brass 1 and 2 libraries. I am sure with DB, it can be done better.

VSL sits very well in cinematic domain as well. The Silent Stage is not a problem at all. Frankly, I like the versatile nature of the samples. VSL also sounds more neutral. Whereas, other samples have a very strong signature to the sound. So a lot of music done with some libraries can sound similar. VSL user and company demos differ a lot and its proof that it can sound dramatically different. 

I agree that you do have to work hard at making the samples sit in the mix and use EQ etc. Perhaps, LASS etc are more out-of-the-box libraries. 

Most other library demos are done keeping in mind realism as the No:1 priority whereas VSL demos are stronger compositionally. Of course, its not always the case but over all. The demos can perhaps be more realistic in nature and produced slightly better.

I will give DB a try soon!


Best,

Tanuj.


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## Kevin Kliesch (Jun 21, 2011)

josejherring @ Tue Jun 21 said:


> Of all the Dimension Brass demos both official and user demos that I've heard, I've only heard 1 that even vaguely resembled a brass section. Imo, VSL really screwed the pooch on this one. It's a dog to my ears.



This may be true of the demos you've heard so far, but I've been using DB on a series I've been working on and I've managed to make the brass sound pretty spectacular. That, however, means a TON of programming - sometimes I think I have more keyswitches and controller data in my tracks than actual notes. I also put all of the brass through Vienna's convolution reverb. (Being a brass player myself also helps a little.)


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jun 21, 2011)

Kevin,

Do post an example if you can!

Thanks.


Best,

Tanuj.


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## José Herring (Jun 21, 2011)

Kevin Kliesch @ Tue Jun 21 said:


> josejherring @ Tue Jun 21 said:
> 
> 
> > Of all the Dimension Brass demos both official and user demos that I've heard, I've only heard 1 that even vaguely resembled a brass section. Imo, VSL really screwed the pooch on this one. It's a dog to my ears.
> ...



Yes, if you post something. I've been interested in this as the approach to the library seems as if it could be musically useful, but I haven't heard anything yet that's convinced me.


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## jamwerks (Jun 21, 2011)

Yeah the Guy Bacos (oops EDIT Jay Bacal!) example of the Williams "Imperial March" is fantastic: brass, winds and strings. That’s the kind of brass sound I go for also.

In that example I don’t like however the "room" and how the perc resonates in it at all (hope that wasn’t MIR!).

I definitely go for real sounding brass and not the super-douper on steriods sound, that most Music supervisors are now demanding (I sometimes think that the California sun has baked a lot of peoples brains (and ears), but I guess thats the natural evolution of sound.

To contradict myself a bit, I have liked the recent CB examples, and am now thinking that having a great room baked in (room) and/or close mics may prove to be the "best" sampling method (no matter how good MIR Pro will sound).

Cost is another issue, with the VSL stuff now weighing in at well over twice the HS-HB-CB prices.


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## Guy Bacos (Jun 21, 2011)

jamwerks @ Tue Jun 21 said:


> Yeah the Guy Bacos example of the Williams "Imperial March"



Oops, this is Jay Bacal.


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## Hicks (Jun 21, 2011)

jamwerks @ Tue Jun 21 said:


> Cost is another issue, with the VSL stuff now weighing in at well over twice the HS-HB-CB prices.



I totally agree that the price is very salty considering other offerings.


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## José Herring (Jun 21, 2011)

jamwerks @ Tue Jun 21 said:


> Yeah the Guy Bacos example of the Williams "Imperial March" is fantastic: brass, winds and strings. That’s the kind of brass sound I go for also.
> 
> In that example I don’t like however the "room" and how the perc resonates in it at all (hope that wasn’t MIR!).
> 
> ...



The reason I think that he's got so much verb is that the natural samples sound so bad that he's trying to cover it up. Personally I think the Imperial March example is perhaps the worst example I've heard. I guess if you're into that small Orchesta de Paris sound, then, DB might come close to that. But there are better brass sounds and in truth CB comes waaaay closer to the sound of what I consider to be brass. And, no I'm not partial to most of the brass sounds in Hollywood.


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## Guy Bacos (Jun 21, 2011)

There is no brass library out there with a purer sound than DB, that is the real sound recorded. The rest is a question of mix, getting the desired acoustic, or the latest fad of what a brass sound should be. But you'll never be stuck with one specific sound. Hybrid has moved this up a notch as I said. Once you start to master various acoustic effects, you have an infinite amount of possibilities, I promise to show new examples as soon as I get a chance, and also with MIR PRO, hopefully very soon.


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## dcoscina (Jun 21, 2011)

Jose, I must disagree with you. The brass from VSL do sound very close to real orchestral brass- and I'm around them once a week if not more so I'm pretty acquainted with the sound. I know they don't sound like Hollywood or LA orchestras (I have only heard recordings to be honest) but the VSL stuff I've heard sounds pretty close to the Detroit, Chicago, and Toronto Symphony brass. Moreso than EWQL or other orchestral libs out there.

EDIT- but then again, perception of realism can also vary based on the individual, especially when you get to this level of quality in samples. It's like preferences in conductors or orchestras in fact. It's kind of subjective. It's not like we're comparing Garritan to VSL or CineBrass. Then the comparison becomes much clearer.


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## José Herring (Jun 21, 2011)

It has faint glimmers of sounding like Detroit and perhaps Toronto, but in all honesty I'm still waiting for a demo that sounds half decent. I want to like it. I do. I hear little bits and pieces that are appealing and, I think the approach has possibilities. Even if it's a bitch to program I'd probably get it just to have a brass library that doesn't sound Hollywoody. But, I just haven't heard good enough from this library yet.

It's been out for a while and yet no good demos. CB, comes out and within a day guys are banging out pretty decent sounding stuff. If I were the original poster I'd go the CB route and take my chances that they'll beef up the articulations list with CBPro. I'd also wait to hear HB, being recorded in a slightly smaller room it may have the flexibility to be used in larger and smaller settings and with multiple mic positions it could probably do hollywood and non-hollywood sounding stuff pretty well. Potentially. If they ever decide to release it


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## Mike Connelly (Jun 21, 2011)

Guy Bacos @ Tue Jun 21 said:


> But you'll never be stuck with one specific sound.



This argument is always trotted out in defense of Vienna - more flexible, not just one sound baked in. But don't the close mics from various libraries give a fairly dry and flexible sound that can be used in a bunch of different ways with verb, eq, and mixing? (In addition to hall mics that are usable out of the box)


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## Guy Bacos (Jun 21, 2011)

Not just talking about the reverb, but the overall way DB is presented in VI Pro, as well as the flexibilities in the articulations and more so in the regular brass, the tons of other articulations possible. 

I also would like to improve some hall setting in DB, and have the intention of doing so with hybrid and MIR PRO.

Cinebrass is certainly good, I'm sure HB will be excellent, and DB is great. Just choose what works best for your needs.


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## noiseboyuk (Jun 21, 2011)

I use quite a bit of VSL, and it can blend pretty well with a bit of care (love their legatos, I really do). The issue with brass in particular is that many people have a VERY specific kind of sound that they like, which is that classic Hollywood sound. This is the raison d'etre of CineBrass - it has boxed that elusive tone and ambience, and something like Dimension Brass will imho always fall short of that one specific goal. CB is not super flexible, it is currently a little limited I think in the parts it can cover well, but when it hits (as it often does) it hits it out of the park. DB's strength of course is in the auto-divisi, which I'm sure works great for some applications.

You pays your money and you takes your choice! There is no one "right" in this stuff imho.


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## dcoscina (Jun 21, 2011)

Yes, I will give you that Jose. DB is NOT user friendly the way most VSL products are. And to me, it does sound a little...muffled. But I do like the auto divisi and programmatic of it.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 21, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Tue Jun 21 said:


> I use quite a bit of VSL, and it can blend pretty well with a bit of care (love their legatos, I really do). The issue with brass in particular is that many people have a VERY specific kind of sound that they like, which is that classic Hollywood sound. This is the raison d'etre of CineBrass - it has boxed that elusive tone and ambience, and something like Dimension Brass will imho always fall short of that one specific goal. CB is not super flexible, it is currently a little limited I think in the parts it can cover well, but when it hits (as it often does) it hits it out of the park. DB's strength of course is in the auto-divisi, which I'm sure works great for some applications.
> 
> You pays your money and you takes your choice! There is no one "right" in this stuff imho.



Maybe not, but you were sure right about the SE winds deal. Love 'em.


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## rgames (Jun 22, 2011)

I'll jump in here becuase I've faced a similar dilemma: I love the VSL programming and detail, but Dimension Brass just doesn't sound very good to me.

In particular, the FF samples always sound too strident and crunchy, sometimes there's a bit of a pitch "scoop" at the start of the FF sample. The other VSL brass suffer from the same problem, except maybe the horns.

So, despite my love of the VSL approach to everything, I never bought Dimension Brass.

My dream library would include the sound of Cinebrass with the detail and ease-of-use of VSL. Aaahhhh, to dream.... we'll see what Hollywood Brass has to offer. If Play 3 can get me close to VSL's programming, ease-of-use, and depth with Cinebrass sound, they'll have my money for sure 

rgames


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## noiseboyuk (Jun 22, 2011)

rgames @ Wed Jun 22 said:


> If Play 3 can get me close to VSL's programming, ease-of-use, and depth with Cinebrass sound, they'll have my money for sure



Don't forget Play 3 is ONLY performance tweeks - no new features.


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## Andreas Moisa (Jun 22, 2011)

> I'll jump in here becuase I've faced a similar dilemma: I love the VSL programming and detail, but Dimension Brass just doesn't sound very good to me.
> 
> In particular, the FF samples always sound too strident and crunchy, sometimes there's a bit of a pitch "scoop" at the start of the FF sample. The other VSL brass suffer from the same problem, except maybe the horns.
> 
> ...



In a perfect world, VSL and EW team up, they ditch the PLAY Engine, use EWs approach in Sound and combine this with VSLs accuracy and world class programming...


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## mushanga (Mar 15, 2012)

Dimension Brass users - how are you finding it? Is it worth going down the DB route or sticking to the original VSL Brass I / II libraries?


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## mushanga (May 30, 2012)

Bump


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## kolton (May 30, 2012)

IMHO dimesion brass is amazing! i bought them the day they were released.
i have HB and CB and i use them both and like them a lot, but i would never give up DB for either one.


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## Erik (May 31, 2012)

Maybe of interest, it concerns only the horns: http://eotte.blogspot.com/2011/12/simple-scale-for-horn-solo-4-horns-and.html (a small comparison of products in the context of a simple scale).

Personaly I have to admit often returning to the VSL brass products in mockups of classical works btw.. HB has it qualities certainly, the tuba: I like it very much. Other instruments can sound a bit thin easily.


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## rpaillot (May 31, 2012)

I like some of the things in HB, but some instruments indeed sound thin. 
I never use HB trumpets for instance. I prefer the sound of CB.

I dont like the trombones sustain in cinebrass, while those in HB are great ( you can really mockup those "trombones pads" you hear in most film scores ) 

HB solo horn is great ! Better than CB which's too slow and sloppy.
HB 2 french horns... not bad. I dont like the loud layers
HB 6 french horns... well the legato sounds good in soft layers. But when you go in f/ ff , I dont like the sound. I think I prefer VSL Epic Horns in those layers.


There is one thing I really like in HB. When you layer brass sections, it sounds really great.
For instance, try to layer 3 trumpets stac sustains with french horns stac sus and play a melody in unison. You get this "two steps from hell" epic brass sound.

For short articulations, Cinebrass is clearly the winner for me. 
Shorts in HB are sloppy,not sharp enough. I never succeeded in using them...


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## mushanga (Jun 1, 2012)

kolton @ Wed 30 May said:


> IMHO dimesion brass is amazing! i bought them the day they were released.
> i have HB and CB and i use them both and like them a lot, but i would never give up DB for either one.



I wonder how DB sound compared to VSL's Brass I / II. Not sure which library to go with as Brass I contains better solo instruments/articulations. The DB demos on VSL's site all sound as if the instruments were recorded in mono..guess that makes sense considering they were programmed with divisi in mind.


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## Peter Alexander (Jun 1, 2012)

rgames @ Wed Jun 22 said:


> I'll jump in here becuase I've faced a similar dilemma: I love the VSL programming and detail, but Dimension Brass just doesn't sound very good to me.
> 
> In particular, the FF samples always sound too strident and crunchy, sometimes there's a bit of a pitch "scoop" at the start of the FF sample. The other VSL brass suffer from the same problem, except maybe the horns.
> 
> ...



A while back I was consulting with a client who was looking for a Kontakt alternative for licensing. I wrote VSL to see if they were planning to license their player because of the extra income it would mean to them.

Short answer: no soap.


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