# Brian Tyler on Writing For Orchestra



## Parsifal666 (Dec 11, 2016)

Interesting, the counterpoint Brian takes to Hans. Mr. Zimmer (correct me if I'm wrong) has mentioned never starting with the drums, while Brian cites a specific example of doing just that.

I'm nowhere near in the same 10 galaxies as those guys, but I do it both ways, and have been paid for the products of both techniques.

But hey, whatever works for them, they're both terrific imo.


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## Flux (Dec 11, 2016)

I think Brian Tyler makes an excellent point in regards to sample computer restraints. I often find myself avoiding those soaring violin lines or low brass passages purely because I know it won't sound 100% believable to my ears. This is why I've taken the approach of writing at the piano or while I walk to class- to capture what I'm imagining without the limits of my current setup.


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## InLight-Tone (Dec 11, 2016)

That chair is hardcore...


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## dcoscina (Dec 11, 2016)

I think he's absolutely correct- especially if you know you are going to have it performed by a real group. Don't let the quality of the samples dictate what the music and the orchestra performing it, can express. 

This is why I will compose into notation first if it's going to be something performed by a real group or musician down the line. I don't have to worry about sonic realism in my mock up as long as it timbral approximates what I'm going for. Hence why I still use Notion for all serious orchestral pieces. 

The danger of working in a MIDI format is that it's more difficult to think in terms of phrasing and balance that are endemic to music played by orchestras. Because of that fascist little bastard of a metronome clicking away, it constrains the composer to a set tempo and meter. Obviously there are exceptions- Andy Blaney's music is totally free of that metronomic anchor that is so prevalent in music composed on keyboards with samples. 

BTW- I love Tyler's hybrid scores btw- Fast Five, Now You See Me, you know, the groove based stuff. I think that he excels at it very well. A Spiderman score from him would be wicked fun. He has carved out a very good career for himself and has a musical voice that is distinctive.


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## Ashermusic (Dec 11, 2016)

Indeed, what you write with samples if you know they are going to be replaced either partially or entirely as opposed to being the final product requires two different ways of making choices compositionally. If you are going to have the samples be exclusively the end product, you simply _have_ to write to them. Otherwise, you should not let their limitations limit you.


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## NoamL (Dec 11, 2016)

Now You See Me is a fantastic score.

When he talked about keeping it loose maybe he's thinking about using the drums to create a humanized and flowing click track and make everything else match up to that?

It would be interesting to check out some of his tracks and see if they have the invariant click of typical modern/hybrid scores or the more flowing approach of traditional filmscoring.

Just as an example - I've been working on a mockup this past month that copies an orchestral recording exactly, and the "click" is all over the place.. this is what happens when you let an orchestra do their stuff with no click track, and probably in this case no pops or streamers as well:


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## jononotbono (Dec 11, 2016)

dcoscina said:


> Andy Blaney's music is totally free of that metronomic anchor



Curiously, how does he get away from that with Samples?


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## dcoscina (Dec 11, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> Curiously, how does he get away from that with Samples?


He uses MOTU DP which I will admit feels more musical than say, Logic to me. But probably mostly because Andy is incredibly talented and can think in terms of constructing music using phrasing, melody, harmony, orchestration and rhythm in real time. I'm not so talented and need to do it step by step in a notation environment. I just cannot write good orchestral music with a metronome chugging away in the background.


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## jononotbono (Dec 11, 2016)

Well my question didn't revolve around his musical talent and ability, which is pretty obvious as he is amazing at composing music, it revolves around him using a DAW, Sample libraries and yet his


dcoscina said:


> music is totally free of that metronomic anchor that is so prevalent in music composed on keyboards with samples.



I'm hugely interested in writing with Samples and getting away from the imprisonment of the click.


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## jononotbono (Dec 11, 2016)

NoamL said:


> Now You See Me is a fantastic score.
> 
> When he talked about keeping it loose maybe he's thinking about using the drums to create a humanized and flowing click track and make everything else match up to that?
> 
> ...



The piece you mocked up with CSS was brilliant and the Click/tempo track you made for it was immense. It makes me think how you create that without it sounding like it sounds like you've tried to make it natural. Must be a challenge. Have you done this with any of your own pieces?


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## dcoscina (Dec 11, 2016)

I think it comes down to the composer. I learned the old school way and even though I've done the improvisation/MIDI keyboard methodology for many years like many others, I'm moving towards concert works which I find need the formal methodology to compose.

However, I would say concentrate on phrasing. Think about the shape of each line and how a real player would perform it. Rather than plow through a piece with a steady tempo, envision the piece in your head, even make some handwritten notes about where the piece should go, write out a chord or line or two, then approach the DAW as a notation interface. Compose in smaller chunks so you can build in tempi changes. Go back to a piece you may have already written and see if there is any part you could adjust the tempo. Cubase is actually pretty fantastic at applying these things very easily. You can even adjust note attacks for each instrument based on how active the part is. If it's fast or a flurry, the player would probably rush it a tad. I don't mean make the MIDI performance as sloppy as a bunch of ADHD middle school kids but some very small performance elements that will free your music and make it sound more organic. Believe me, I'm typing this more to myself as a reminder when I'm working with DAWs to compose because I fall into the same traps- though I'm not huge on repeating ostinatos and then layering something over them. I think that's boring. Ostinatos have their time and place and can generate a terrific amount of kinetic energy but they are overused these days and a crutch for not writing more interesting or complex supporting rhythmic figures. My 2 cents.

EDIT- just to add to this- what I have been doing A LOT of these days is improvising with custom multis from OT Ark (mostly) and some Project SAM OE sets. I just play stuff. When I stumble upon something good, I continue to play it, develop it whether its harmonically, melodically, or rhythmically. Usually it's all three. I don't press RECORD at all. I just keep working with the idea. I allow it to marinate in my head and I continue to work on it that way. I used to actually do this a lot so when it came to recording a piece of music, it was basically all written up in my noodle and I just performed it line by line into the DAW. For me, this yields much higher quality pieces. It's very deliberate as opposed to reactionary. Again, this is a process I just follow myself. Doesn't work when you are on a time clock. When I was doing a bunch of ad work, I still adhered to this but I had hours, not days to work through an idea by playing it before recording. Then again, they were 30 second running time as opposed to 5 to 10 minute pieces....


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## guitarman1960 (Dec 11, 2016)

Love Brian Tyler. He is an absolute killer drummer! If you watch his videos for Now You See Me and Brake you can see what a natural he is behind a drum kit, and what a great groove he gets into.
Many people would be happy to just be as good a drummer, let alone all his other talents as a composer. A true genius.


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## dcoscina (Dec 11, 2016)

guitarman1960 said:


> Love Brian Tyler. He is an absolute killer drummer! If you watch his videos for Now You See Me and Brake you can see what a natural he is behind a drum kit, and what a great groove he gets into.
> Many people would be happy to just be as good a drummer, let alone all his other talents as a composer. A true genius.


I think he does groove based scores better than anyone out there. He certainly has a terrific sense of energy that he brings to the table. But he also has a good sense of melody and how to effectively play both lyrical elements against the rhythmic ones.


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## pmcrockett (Dec 11, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> The piece you mocked up with CSS was brilliant and the Click/tempo track you made for it was immense. It makes me think how you create that without it sounding like it sounds like you've tried to make it natural. Must be a challenge. Have you done this with any of your own pieces?


To get this effect working on your own (as opposed to copying an existing track) you pretty much have to record the click track manually, or generate a tempo map based on a recording of you conducting the score, or generate a tempo map based on MIDI parts that you recorded without click.


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## jononotbono (Dec 11, 2016)

pmcrockett said:


> To get this effect working on your own (as opposed to copying an existing track) you pretty much have to record the click track manually, or generate a tempo map based on a recording of you conducting the score, or generate a tempo map based on MIDI parts that you recorded without click.



Im in the middle of writing a piece and think once I have written it, I will go back to the beginning and tap out a tempo, even if I play it badly and roughly, with me singing parts perhaps, just to capture the natural tempo. Then rebuild the whole track. Sorry, I don't mean to derail the thread, it's just a few things said that relates to Brian Tyler talking about limitations of technology. I think a massive limitation in this technology we all love and use is capturing performance (if you can't record actual live performing humans etc). Basically doing anything to make most music written with computers to sound more human. The "looseness" as Brian is talking about.


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## NoamL (Dec 11, 2016)

Record yourself playing the melody/toplines without any click, bounce to audio, then import into your session and line up the click note by note. Otherwise it's easy to be 'too conservative' and not distort the tempo enough.

But back to Brian Tyler!  yes his live drumming adds so much to his soundtracks.


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## Will Blackburn (Dec 12, 2016)

NoamL said:


> Now You See Me is a fantastic score.
> 
> When he talked about keeping it loose maybe he's thinking about using the drums to create a humanized and flowing click track and make everything else match up to that?
> 
> ...




On that topic whats the best way to reproduce the click from orchestral songs (with no drums or anything)? Im wondering how you would do this in cubase. Record a hi hat or something live to the song?


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## NoamL (Dec 12, 2016)

wcb123 said:


> On that topic whats the best way to reproduce the click from orchestral songs (with no drums or anything)? Im wondering how you would do this in cubase. Record a hi hat or something live to the song?



Hmmm not sure I understand you, I just turned on the click in Logic and started drawing tempo dots until things lined up. I think Cubase surely has a built in click as well?


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## Will Blackburn (Dec 12, 2016)

NoamL said:


> Hmmm not sure I understand you, I just turned on the click in Logic and started drawing tempo dots until things lined up. I think Cubase surely has a built in click as well?



Ahhh i see. I thought you might be doing it by tapping in live midi notes. Basically I've been trying to find an effective and quick way of creating tempo/quantise grooves from orchestral recordings so i could then save them as groove templates. I was going to take say 1000 orchestral recordings, analyse their swing/tempo movements then create click track presets around the results so rather than having a straight 4/4 click you could use a beethoven 5th click for example. I found this cool software that kinda does that, but the process looks like it would take forever.

http://sonicvisualiser.org/


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## NoamL (Dec 12, 2016)

Cool idea but I don't think it's that generalizable. The variance in the click has more to do with the particular musical phrase the orchestra is playing. They shape the tempo just like you would when singing. Also I have noticed on several different orchestral recordings that instrument entrances matter. Especially brass. Trumpet and trombone entrances often push the tempo forward while horns sometimes drag the orchestra - I'm guessing this has to do with the fact that trumpets & bones create sound very quickly and directly across the orchestra (ask any cellist!), whereas the horn has a mushier attack and is pointed away from the orchestra. So there are some rules of thumb you can apply when doing this to your own tracks.


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## tav.one (Dec 12, 2016)

I had a general notion that everyone hates Brian Tyler (I think I picked that up from some imdb discussions or some news articles someday). 
This article helped me to not judge any composer by a few forum discussions or articles & listen to his/her music like you would with your favorites.
Thanks.


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