# Where would you be without samples?



## Guy Bacos (Jul 10, 2010)

If samples and computers were not part of our world and we were limited to using real instruments only, could you envision yourself still being in this creative field?


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## PasiP (Jul 10, 2010)

Yes I would be. If I didn't have samples anymore I would move myself from composing music to mixing and mastering music.


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## Narval (Jul 10, 2010)

_What did your face look like before your parents were born?_

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_face


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 10, 2010)

One thing is for sure, I wouldn't be making demos, so for me it would change quite a bit, even though I've always been involved in live music and will always stay a primary goal.


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## Ashermusic (Jul 10, 2010)

In all candor, if there were no samples only real players and synths, I would be happier. The joy of writing music to picture and then standing in front of some of the best musicians in the world, conducting them and having them bring a dimension to it that only artists and masters of their instruments can bring, it still the most thrilling experience I have ever had.


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 10, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Sat Jul 10 said:


> In all candor, if there were no samples only real players and synths, I would be happier. The joy of writing music to picture and then standing in front of some of the best musicians in the world, conducting them and having them bring a dimension to it that only artists and masters of their instruments can bring, it still the most thrilling experience I have ever had.



So Jay, would you say you were kind of forced to follow the sample sheep herd?


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## Ashermusic (Jul 10, 2010)

Guy Bacos @ Sat Jul 10 said:


> Ashermusic @ Sat Jul 10 said:
> 
> 
> > In all candor, if there were no samples only real players and synths, I would be happier. The joy of writing music to picture and then standing in front of some of the best musicians in the world, conducting them and having them bring a dimension to it that only artists and masters of their instruments can bring, it still the most thrilling experience I have ever had.
> ...



No I would not say that. Let us just say that I have had to embrace the sample world out of economic necessity.

BTW, I will be writing a monthly column for Film Music magazine and my first one will be an interview with composer Bruce Miller and that is one of the topics we will be discussing.


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## Jaap (Jul 10, 2010)

Yes I would. I started as pen and paper composer without samples and would carry on with that if samples wouldn't be here.


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## artsoundz (Jul 10, 2010)

Over all, the ability to access every instrument on the planet compels me to say I'm grateful for the advent of the world of samples. 

But I miss the live thing which is,after all, reserved for the the projects with budgets for that sort of thing. rare and getting rarer. 

But time marches on, and samples are a fact of life that will never change at this point. Sink or swim.


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## Ashermusic (Jul 10, 2010)

BTW, since I must use samples primarily for economic reasons, I am very grateful to all the developers who are working their butts off to give us terrific libraries and virtual instruments. It is hard and sometimes relatively thankless work.


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## JJP (Jul 10, 2010)

Guy Bacos @ Sat Jul 10 said:


> If samples and computers were not part of our world and we were limited to using real instruments only, could you envision yourself still being in this creative field?



Absolutely! Perhaps more so. I'd be spending less time tinkering with technology and more time actually focusing on the creative aspects of my work.

I sometimes miss not having my workflow filtered through a computer. I think I'm more creative when I'm dealing with people rather than machines.


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## rJames (Jul 10, 2010)

I don't know if I would have been able to find my way back, if it were not for sample libraries.

I'm grateful for the technology.


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## bryla (Jul 10, 2010)

I probably would stay jazzpiano orientated and playing a lot of live gigs


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## Ed (Jul 10, 2010)

I wouldnt be doing making music at all without samples. Quite literally.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 10, 2010)

I moved to NYC in 1978 with a Hammond M-3, a Rhodes, a Polymoog, a Stratocaster and a Yamaha acoustic guitar... 'nuf said.


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## José Herring (Jul 10, 2010)

I was much happier when I had live players and a few synths.

Orchestral samples have killed about 60% of the actual joy of making music for me.


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## misterbee (Jul 10, 2010)

Samples ARE the joy of writing music for me. Without them, I'd be a much better trumpet player than I am now, but I wouldn't be as happy.


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## José Herring (Jul 10, 2010)

misterbee @ Sat Jul 10 said:


> Samples ARE the joy of writing music for me. Without them, I'd be a much better trumpet player than I am now, but I wouldn't be as happy.



Maybe you could elaborate more on this. I'd like to catch some of the Joy. I haven't been able to make music in 3 days now and I'm on a deadline. I just haven't been able to face looking into the computer screen for another day. It's getting quite serious. Having thoughts for the first time that maybe this isn't the field for me anymore. I need a new viewpoint to look at this for my survival. The only thing that has kept me going lately is that I've been doing a lot more sound design lately and that's been pretty cool.

Jose


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## Ashermusic (Jul 10, 2010)

I actually do find SOME joy in working with samples simply because I love the process of composing and it gives me considerable control but not nearly to the same degree as working with real musicians.

For those of you say they LOVE working with samples, am I correct in assuming that most of you have not worked with real orchestras and/or lack the requisite skills?

I do not mean this as a putdown, just want to either confirm or refute my assumptions.


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## Narval (Jul 10, 2010)

In many respects, samplers are like organs. And organs have been around since the beginning. So, for those who want to emulate orchestras, organs have always been there. Now sounding _better_ of course, but computers and samplers have brought nothing new to music. They have only made "organs" available to everyone, thus empowering amateurism.


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## misterbee (Jul 10, 2010)

We all get inspired by different things. For me personally, writing notes on a page without hearing them, would be like being a blind painter. I would find it uninspiring. For those lucky enough to have someone else paying for your orchestra and recording staff, I'm sure there's nothing greater than the thrill of hearing your work for the first time played by great musicians. But we are all not in that position, for so many reasons.





josejherring @ Sat Jul 10 said:


> misterbee @ Sat Jul 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Samples ARE the joy of writing music for me. Without them, I'd be a much better trumpet player than I am now, but I wouldn't be as happy.
> ...


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## José Herring (Jul 10, 2010)

misterbee @ Sat Jul 10 said:


> We all get inspired by different things. For me personally, writing notes on a page without hearing them, would be like being a blind painter. I would find it uninspiring. For those lucky enough to have someone else paying for your orchestra and recording staff, I'm sure there's nothing greater than the thrill of hearing your work for the first time played by great musicians. But we are all not in that position, for so many reasons.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well I think that helps a lot. I'd resigned myself to thinking that I can only get so far with samples and I'm writing within the limits of the gear. With live players I always write to push the players to their conceivable limits. Thus I've gotten to the point where I'm always holding myself back with samples. I'll try to push the limits and see where I get with samples. Maybe in not pushing the samples i'm not fully realizing the potential of what can be achieved.


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## misterbee (Jul 10, 2010)

I wonder how many of you who don't live in a major centre think this is a silly question?  

The answer to your question from me is no and no. But to be able to put together a good quality large orchestra who could run through a score in short time and in tune, and a recording team to capture it in St. John's would be a very daunting task! Not to mention the challenge of finding someone to fund it. The local film industry certainly couldn't! The local market probably wouldn't even be interestedi n an orchestral score anyway. :D 

If I wanted to write trumpets over high F for example, I have a grand choice of one player. Our next nearest would probably be around a thousand km away in Halifax, NS. 




Ashermusic @ Sat Jul 10 said:


> For those of you say they LOVE working with samples, am I correct in assuming that most of you have not worked with real orchestras and/or lack the requisite skills?


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## Ashermusic (Jul 10, 2010)

Fair point. I forget that everyone who is doing a film score nowadays may not live in L.A.. NYC. London, Paris, etc.


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## mverta (Jul 10, 2010)

That being said, if I lived in the middle of nowhere and wanted to do orchestral film scores I'd move to LA, NYC, etc. well before accepting samples as a palette. I came to LA from Chicago, which isn't exactly a podunk town, but that's not where the action is.


But as of now, where would I be without samples? Considerably less frustrated, is where I would be. But it's not all bad.


I love being able to use a mock-up to communicate a sketch or idea to a director, but I don't like going into battle with a toy gun. I have done my level-best to write as I normally do, and execute that music virtually in a way that isn't a pale imitation of the virtuoso musicians I've been fortunate to work with, and I have failed. When working virtually in this attempt, I spend all my time doing technical bullshit and MIDI data editing, and performing and re-performing and re-performing parts trying to get anywhere close. None of this is fun for me, and none of this is musical for me. 

I think it's foolish to bang one's head against the wall, so I've tried scaling back my expectations, and writing down for the samples. This, of course, means I'm not really writing my music, not really being as effective as I want to be, and letting the tool work me, instead of working for me. There are styles of film music which have adapted, and make best, integral use of the world of samples and electronics, and I respect that. It's a different sound than I'm wired for, is all.

So I don't need samples. Beethoven didn't even need to be able to hear. But if I lived in a world where I could merely develop my scores virtually, to help sell my ideas, communicate effectively with directors, and avoid conflicts later on, but it was understood that I would then be allowed to let live players take those concepts where they deserve to go, I think this would represent the ultimate win-win. 


I argue for live all the time; I don't always win. But my favorite way of describing virtual orchestras to a director? It's like fucking a super realistic blow-up doll of your wife.

_Mike


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## rgames (Jul 10, 2010)

Samples are nothing more than an advancement in music technology. As such, they are neither good nor bad, just an option.

They serve different purposes for different people: for some, they are the final realization of a musical idea. For others, they are a stop on the way to a live orchestral performance. For me, they're mostly the former.

They're definitely not bad or limiting. Technology has always worked its way into music as it has worked its way into everything else in life.

I'm a clarinetist. When Mozart's clarinet concerto was premiered, it was done on an instrument very different than mine though it shares the same name. Quite frankly, the clarinet in Mozart's time was much more dififcult to play! Does the concerto sound different when played on a period instrument? Absolutely. Do many people play it on a period instrument? Absolutely not.

Same with Brahms - he continued to write for the "natural" horn though the modern valved version had already arrived and was well established. Does it sound different? Sure. Do horn players regularly play natural horns for Brahms' symphonies? Probably not.

Samples are part of the same progression. They're neither good nor bad - just an option. Time will tell whether or not they become part of mainstream music making (seems they already have, though).

Where would I be without samples? I mentioned I'm a clarinetist - my piano chops are horrible. So I am unable to play most of the music I can imagine. Having samples to verify that what I put on the page matches what I hear in my head is invaluable.

rgames


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## JJP (Jul 10, 2010)

Folmann @ Sat Jul 10 said:


> Where would you be without women ...



With samples.


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## StrangeCat (Jul 10, 2010)

Folmann @ Sat Jul 10 said:


> Where would you be without women ...



in Hell


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## Udo (Jul 10, 2010)

Folmann @ Sun Jul 11 said:


> Where would you be without women ...


Isn't a vivid imagination a prime requirement for composing? Just combine that with an experienced hand and ..... who needs women .... :wink:


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 10, 2010)

...and suddenly this thread is about: Where would you be without woman? :shock:


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## noiseboyuk (Jul 11, 2010)

I can answer the woman question simply and pedantically - we wouldn't be here (saves me the trauma of thinking through the implications otherwise). As to samples...

OK, this is actually a VERY pertinent question for me and touches a bit of a nerve. Back in the day I used to play guitar in a band, then produce kinda dance music (I presume synths are allowed in the world of no samples?) Then I had a long haitus. Probably around about now, early 40s, I'd be back playing that again as the world of music seems fresh again. What I absolutely WOULDN'T be doing without samples, at all, is orchestral music - still less getting paid for it.

This is at once fascinating to me and makes me feel uneasy. I wonder if there are other VIers in this position? The bottom line is that samples have opened up the world of classical music to those like myself who are musical but have little or no formal training. All my composing and arranging is because of my good ear - I hopefully have a bit of a gift for melody and I think I can interpret on-screen action musically pretty well (helps that I've music-edited for a long time). I can hear things like counterpoint in my head, I'm able to break down an arrangement into different sections, but with no idea of what I'm doing in strict musical terms. Beyond the basic names and shapes, I usually also have little idea of the names of many of the chords I play (also true in a band!) My contention is that music is music. Sure it's easier to arrange a good rock song (though hard still to be original) than orchestral as the latter is far more complex, but it's on the same scale. But without the sounds to play with at my fingertips, there is no way on earth I could produce orchestral music. I certainly couldn't write it on a stave (I can just about.... JUST... follow a score) - I'd literally need an orchestra and me badly playing a piano to demo each part or me saying "can you go la--da-da-da-dee?!!"

So I'm in awe of you, Guy, and so many others here for the depth of your musical knowledge when mine is so impoverished. I am acutely aware that my own music has vast room for improvement. However, I know enough about myself by now to know that I don't easily learn from manuals or courses, so I don't think I have a way forward of formal instruction which has always been against my nature. Back at school I learned piano which worked up to a point, but eventually my sight reading and accuracy were both so poor that it rapidly became a law of diminishing returns. I just need to listen more and push myself more and above all practice, practice, practice (and of course pick up tips from others).

A fascinating question, then, from people like myself to people who are classically trained - do you resent us ignorant young turks? (And I wouldn't blame you at all if you did). Or at the other end of the scale, do those without musical knowledge but are naturally very musical potentially have something new to offer the music world?


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## Narval (Jul 11, 2010)

mverta @ Sat Jul 10 said:


> my favorite way of describing virtual orchestras to a director? It's like fucking a super realistic blow-up doll of your wife.





Folmann @ Sat Jul 10 said:


> Where would you be without women ...


So the real question is: where would you be without super realistic blow-up dolls? And the answer is: probably with a woman. o/~


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## rJames (Jul 11, 2010)

Thanks, Narval for putting those quotes together. I hadn't read mverta's comment carefully and was wondering why Troel's had changed the subject.

Without the orchestra, there is no super realistic blow-up version of an orchestra.

@ Jay. Even when in LA, we just don't have access to a real orchestra, so we use the super realistic blow-up version. I don't think the question is about the desire to work with live players as much as it is about access... and to a great degree, about budgetary realities.

@ Troels. Too subtle.


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