# Sounding like you vs. somebody else



## José Herring (May 26, 2005)

In the past I haven't had any real dealings with other composers. I've actually tried very hard to stay away from the opinions of other composers because I really didn't think that anybody needed to like what I was doing other than the guy that was paying.

But, lately because of music technology I've had to seek advice from many of you and I really appreciate your input.

What I noticed is that there are so many composers that work really hard to write music "in the style of(place the name of any successful composer here)".

I personally have always wanted to sound only like myself. I never really cared a damn bit about what other composers sound like. I've suffered probably because of that in terms of money but certainly not in terms of fun.

Not to start any flame wars but why do so many composers try to sound like other people rather than trying to carve out their own unique voice?

I say this not to criticize anybody but to honestly try and figure out whether I should be doing the same.

Cheers,

Jose


----------



## choc0thrax (May 26, 2005)

You probably get more job offers sounding like some other successful composer. After Gladiator there has been a flood of Zimmer clones which gets really boring to listen to. If you make a decent living doing what you are doing now why change.


----------



## fictionmusic (May 26, 2005)

Cool topic Jose, its a question I have considered myself. My only answer is I guess emulating a hero to the point where you sound just like him (or at least try to) is more of an homage thing than anything else. Either that or people are afraid to stand on their own: maybe it is better to sound like someone who you know is respected than to take the chance of being laughed at for sounding like yourself.

Mind you, I don't think every one actually sounds the same, but I have noticed a real trend for the big Hollywood (read large Romantic orchestra) sound, with busy Epic horns, huge legato strings, wood pads, and stormdrum like percussion. It's as if everyone is trying to replace the Carmina Burana, Mars temp tracks (I know I use those 2 examples a lot, but that is what 70% of the stuff I hear sounds like). Mind you, it is all extremely well done and beautifully produced. I'd say almost everything I have heard hear could easily be used in a Hollywood soundtrack, and ultimately, that is what most composers seem to want.

Having said that I immediately think of Sid's music as an aural opposite. His stuff is atonal, with elegant textures and imbued with originality.
The thing is, I much prefer a more atonal approach than a tonal one, and it seems a lot of people who use "Hollywood" film scores as their ideal, prefer tonality first and foremost. In that realm, anything atonal is usually reserved for tension and suspense cues. I guess when you strike out to sound more personal, you also run the risk of being less marketable. In these contexts, maybe its better to be a concert composer than to write to picture, where extra-musical considerations like editing, plot, and ultimately, the directors preferences, have more to do with form and texture than a composer's self-expression.

I have always done music the way I hear it, and to be honest, while trying to please directors, have also displeased a few. I have never been fired, but I have never been re-hired by those who wanted a more traditional or Hollywood sound. If I could do it as well, or as naturally as others, I would have, but sadly, it is not how I think. Still and all, I have very often taken a lot of my natural edge off to please my clients, but thankfully, a lot of them come to me because of how I sound. While it obviously doesn't appeal to all, the people it does appeal to are far easier to work with. Mind you, I like to mix it up a lot, and am just as likely to use synths as I am a virtual (or on those extremely rare occasions) a real orchestra. 

I guess the best thing to do is to temper the expectations of directors et al, with your own development as a composer. Years after a job, you might not remember what you were paid, or what hell you had to go through to do the cue, but if you stay close to your innate preferances artistically, you probably will be happy with your work.


----------



## fictionmusic (May 26, 2005)

Niah said:


> Fictionmusic talked about sid's latest assignment which very atonal. I have heard some atonal experiments in the past from sid with VSL and although they were good they didn't sound quite so good. But now with sid's recent purchase (SI strings) and a bit of sound design with noise those experiments could finally become into real cues that transmitted the composer's initial idea....



True enough...that Siss sound is really to my liking...so much so that I ordered the sounds yesterday. But what I mean goes beyong sounds. As far as the realism of mockups goes, it is still very much a sample thing (and of course the ability to use them well...which is something people here seem to have), but as far as originality goes, the samples should have very little bearing. A solo piano should be able to evoke the writers voice as easily (or maybe more easily) than a Virtual Orchestra. 


Niah said:


> Herman had the same assignment and his approach was very chamber like, would it be the same if he hadn't xsample solo strings and other tools at his disposable? ....



The only problem with singling Sid out was having the inevitable comparisons to others brought in. For the record I think Herman's stuff is pretty personal too...in fact seeing their different approachs to the Dorian Grey project was pretty edifying. Using them as an example, both showed their own individual styles, and neither of them was terribly "Hollywoodish".



Niah said:


> Sometimes a have this great idea in my idea but with the tools I Have can't accomplish it.
> Lets face it, most of the orchestral libraries that people use are most effective when used in a big hollywood sound context. So it's no suprising that their demos are mostly towards that hollywood sound.
> To this date there isn't a library (maybe with the expection of VSL) that captures WELL the detail of a small ensemble/intimate and chamber orchestral sound. ...



Good point. But even still, my thinking is partly the tonality and the composer's voice, not so much the samples. I do agree though, that having these libraries does kind of make one emulate the tonal Hollywood sound.


Niah said:


> Also, writing a big hollywood cue just for the fun of it is very refreshing for an average composer who's only work is on low-budget films, TV work and such things which do not require a big orchestral sound.
> ..



Another good point. I do a lot of TV. I also do a lot of documentary films and for awhile, a ton of corporate stuff. The corporate stuff was psuedo-symphonic (they wanted to give the impression of long-lasting values) but also had tons of Acid-type elements (long-lasting values that would also attract a new younger market) so I was not often called upon for Hollywood sounding cues. I did use a lot of solo strings though (who I'd hire) and mixed them with orchestral sounds.

I guess when all is said and done I really don't care for the Hollywood lads too much (especially Elfman and Zimmer) and much prefer the less popular and more idiosyncratic indie film composers . I did see a fairly big HW film called Taking Lives (with Angelie Jolie) and Phillip Glass had done the score...I liked that a lot (and don't give me grief either chocOthrax :D ).


----------



## Niah (May 26, 2005)

> I did see a fairly big HW film called Taking Lives (with Angelie Jolie) and Phillip Glass had done the score...I liked that a lot (and don't give me grief either chocOthrax ).



Yeah, and it's a shame that they didn't even released the score! At least I haven't found it anywhere.

@josejherring


> Not to start any flame wars but why do so many composers try to sound like other people rather than trying to carve out their own unique voice?



Is not much as a "try to" but just a process that you have to go through.
Either conscious or unconcious you begin to emulate what you hear, it's just something that you can't avoid.
If you listen to Cliff Martinez or Thomas Newman (two very distinct film composers) in their early works you can catch just a gilmpse of what was to come, basically it was pretty much average stuff compared to where they are now.
In the end finding your voice is a process that takes many many years and in the case of a film composer, the assignments taht you get could be crucial to this mater.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 26, 2005)

My opinion: "they" already have people who can sound like everybody else. I concentrate on writing good music - which is not to say that I've reinvented music, but to me the challenge has always been to find my own voice.

But you certainly want to be able to paraphrase music just as an exercise and a way of understanding it, in my opinion.


----------



## choc0thrax (May 26, 2005)

Niah said:


> > I did see a fairly big HW film called Taking Lives (with Angelie Jolie) and Phillip Glass had done the score...I liked that a lot (and don't give me grief either chocOthrax ).
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, and it's a shame that they didn't even released the score! At least I haven't found it anywhere.



Yeah hmmmm I wonder why...


----------



## Niah (May 27, 2005)

choc0thrax said:


> Niah said:
> 
> 
> > > I did see a fairly big HW film called Taking Lives (with Angelie Jolie) and Phillip Glass had done the score...I liked that a lot (and don't give me grief either chocOthrax ).
> ...



hehehhehe I knew you were gonna say that. :D


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 27, 2005)

I should add that sometimes the gig is sounding like something else! To say nothing about source music, of course.


----------



## fictionmusic (May 27, 2005)

Niah said:


> choc0thrax said:
> 
> 
> > Niah said:
> ...



Yep....me too


----------



## José Herring (May 29, 2005)

I guess I've been kind of lucky in a sense. (Not that I couldn't be more lucky$$$ :wink: )

But, I've mostly been asked for different styles of music not necessarily to copy a different composer. I've found that most filmmakers could care or less who you sound like but are more concerned with a type of music and expression that suit their film.

I don't know. Do other composers have different experiences?

I usually get instructions like, "we want it to sound hollywood" or, " we don't want it to sound too hollywood". Or, "we're looking for something Basic Instinct/Fatal Attractionish " or something like that. Then I create a style that is like that but is my own. I've never been fired for not sounding like a composer.

I was once told to do a score like Hans Zimmer. I did a score like Hans Zimmer and they fired me for sounding too "synthy". :roll: The only job I ever lost midway.

Jose


----------



## fictionmusic (May 29, 2005)

josejherring said:


> I guess I've been kind of lucky in a sense. (Not that I couldn't be more lucky$$$ :wink: )
> 
> But, I've mostly been asked for different styles of music not necessarily to copy a different composer. I've found that most filmmakers could care or less who you sound like but are more concerned with a type of music and expression that suit their film.
> 
> I don't know. Do other composers have different experiences?



No, it's pretty well the same for me too. The director sometimes has very firm ideas as to what style they want, but hardly any specific composer. I have refused some jobs where an ad agency wanted to recreate a pop song and change the lyrics. There are some lads about town who do that and I usually send the agency their way. The fact is, I know these people aren't getting proper clearance for that, so I avoid it like the plauge. If I am asked to do strict soundalike work, I try to argue them out of it, or I just recommend someone else (before they fire me from the whole production). I have lost a few themes to shows where I scored all the bgs, as the director (or in this case the choreographer) wanted to copy some particular piece of music. 

I did one special that the director wanted to use period music (first world war Canadian propaganda-conscription stuff) and I did a lot of research. I liked very little of it, and as the director didn't know any of it first-hand, she was pretty flexible about how I handled it. I hired a string quartet and a vocalist and wrote pieces that used the period music as thematic starting points. Ultimately though, I thought the approach missed the point. We were trying to show the turmoil naive war-artists were suffering, and while it was poignant the first time you heard a once-happy recruiting song played dolefully over war-torn carcasses etc. it lost its effect pretty quickly. She loved it though. So did the network, who hired me on to do the next one.

When I did the second version (WW2 this time) it was with an entirely different crew. This time the director didn't want period music, and although he still wanted a quartet and a vocalist, he otherwise let me be.
We worked pretty closely together and I would run themes by him. It was one of the more pleasurable jobs I did because he was willing to take some chances. Ironically, the one who gave me the most freedom, was the one I consulted with the most and tried the hardest to please.

Mostly though, I find that making music work to picture, creating the mood the director wants (basically edifying the subtext) and not fighting the dialog and sound effects, is far more important to the production than what composer you favour, or library you use.


For example: there is a clip I have seen others here score to, with helicopters flying by and crashing. The composer on the film chose not to score the cue. In my experience it would have been because the sfx editor ("sound designer") would have eaten up every available inch of space with accurate (literal) helicopter sounds. There would be no room for music. Giving the proper emphasis to the sfx team is crucial, and spotting with the director, the sfx editor and the composer usually yields great results.


----------

