# EW Harp - bad business ethics?



## Lawson. (Oct 26, 2015)

Ok, so before I say anything: I have a lot of EW products and they're some of my favorites. I have thought they were a great company and have defended them against attacks on here, but I'm considering not buying from them anymore.

As we all know, EW promised that they would give out a free harp for any customer of any volume of the Hollywood series. Then, without any announcement, they changed it to having to own the entire Hollywood Orchestra. People who have spent $1000s on EW products throughout the years but don't happen to own the entire orchestra don't get the harp, yet someone who buys the entire orchestra on sale for $599 yesterday can.

On top of this, people have been getting muted on the Soundsonline forums for speaking out about this, and the main thread about it has been locked. http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/showthread.php?t=52049&page=5

What do you guys think? I was considering buying HOP (partially for the harp, and partially just because I think it sounds good), but now I'm thinking I should get the OT or Spitfire harp, mainly because of broken promises.

I don't think a company should say something, and then do something else. Doesn't seem right.

Is this just me?


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## playz123 (Oct 26, 2015)

Re. the harp, I agree, and like you I have nearly all of EW's products up until, and including, Brass....purchased at full price. But also I haven't purchased anything from them for the last few years and don't plan to again in the future, so maybe I'm the wrong person to comment. Unlike some others, I also don't have a major dislike for the company, rather I just prefer Kontakt over Play, and have basically built my template around products from other developers. Certainly those people who love and use EW products are entitled to do so with my blessing. 

I do have one very minor 'beef' though, other than the harp, and that is about their forum. Once, as part of a discussion on the placement of instruments, I mentioned a product that they don't make and suggested how it could be used to enhance EW libraries. For my effort I received a nasty e-mail from some over zealous "Admin" reminding me we weren't allowed to mention other products even if they were not competition or not made by EW. That kind of ended my time on their forum...after a few thousand contributing posts made previously. Their forum policies are one reason why so many EW customers start threads here, and why we don't object. Anyway, that's my own story. I know there some nice people at EW, but really with so many other great companies from which to choose, who aren't anal about their empire, I basically just ended up elsewhere, and moving in a different direction. So, what they do and don't do now is no longer my concern. But yes, it does appear as if they/Doug changed direction re. the Harp and I'm not surprised it's become an issue. I certainly don't expect to see them offering it to me or you anytime soon though.  Fortunately, there are a number of other good harps from which one can choose if necessary.


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## almound (Oct 26, 2015)

Thanks for the heads up.


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 26, 2015)

I think Doug gave a very reasonable answer to the situation on the SOL forum:

"First, the quote was one of a number of items being discussed last year as regards future development, and was subsequently amended. It was reposted the 'same day' on another forum and has been repeated ever since, and we've corrected it ever since. 

Simply, others involved in the production thought the original offer was too generous, and didn't want to give away an instrument that cost a lot of time and money to produce if the recipient wasn't even willing to purchase the full orchestra, so it was revised, and before anyone could possibly have purchased anything relying on the original post. 

So, now that the instruments are nearing release, we have made another offer to get the full orchestra for 80% off, which is very generous even if you have one or more sections. It includes a hard drive and qualifies the purchaser for the free Harp as well ... a great deal, right? 

Plus, it can be obtained as part of Composer Cloud, including the upcoming Solo Cello and Solo Violin, which collectively cost a lot to produce and took almost a year of recording and post production; so that's another option; all 3 Hollywood Solo Instruments plus the 2 new ProDrummer products already added after the Composer Cloud launch, 5 new products in total, over $1200 worth of products plus the 9000+ instruments already included for $29.99/mo! 

So, the company is giving a free instrument that has substantial value to tens of thousands of users that qualify ... for absolutely nothing!"


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## jtnyc (Oct 26, 2015)

Doesn't surprise me one bit. They have been controlling, locking and banning on the SOL forum for years. I was banned years ago because I was discussing the myriad of issues Play was having with Protools and the issues I was having with EW support (circa 2006). My setup easily met the stated requirements on their site and when after many phone conversations support could not get things running properly, they told me the issues were due to my setup and dropped the ball. I expressed my disappointment on the forum in a thread where other people were having similar issues and I received a nasty, unprofessional, belligerent rant from one of the owners and I was banned from the forum. That kinda ruined my opinion of EW and I haven't given them any business since.


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## stonzthro (Oct 26, 2015)

Wow -they've sold "tens of thousands" of copies of the full orchestra - that's kind of astonishing to me (not that it is a bad product, just the sheer number)!


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## NYC Composer (Oct 26, 2015)

Let the Games begin!!


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 26, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> Let the Games begin!!



Well, speaking for myself, I have contributed all I can to the discussion. Nothing I say will improve on what Doug himself wrote, which i think is very understandable and reasonable in that time frame. So any games will proceed without me as a participant.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 26, 2015)

Good people, you may rant and vent about this for as long as it is helpful to you, but know this...Doug...does...not...care. Doug is in the bidness of selling excellent samples at a very competitive price. You can buy his samples or you can not buy his samples, totally up to you, but Doug does... not... care... what you think of his business practices, nor will he be moved by your grumbling. We've seen this movie so many times, it's like endless re-runs of some 70's sitcom.

Have at it if you must. When you're done, remember I said it here first.


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## catsass (Oct 26, 2015)

So, in other words, don't harp on it?


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## NYC Composer (Oct 26, 2015)

catsass said:


> So, in other words, don't harp on it?



Now_ that's_ comedy! Style points _HAVE _been awarded. Heh.


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## Mystic (Oct 27, 2015)

I've lost all respect I had for Doug as well as whoever "Admin" is on their forum.

Admin has made some of the worst comments I've ever seen a moderator make and then locks a thread when it doesn't go their way. I understand that moderation is not an easy job; I moderate a forum that is several times larger than even this one, but you need to be diplomatic in the way you address people in a professional situation. Lord knows I've not been perfect in that regard myself and made a few comments that haunted me early on, but you learn from it. Admin obviously hasn't done this as they continue to go down the path of arrogance. Comments like "Second, if you spent that much, you have had many years of use, 5 years in some cases, and hopefully you made a lot of money in the process." as an excuse really pisses me off.

As for Doug...



> "First, the quote was one of a number of items being discussed last year as regards future development, and was subsequently amended. It was reposted the 'same day' on another forum and has been repeated ever since, and we've corrected it ever since.


Translation: "Oops, I should have kept my mouth shut."



> Simply, others involved in the production thought the original offer was too generous, and didn't want to give away an instrument that cost a lot of time and money to produce if the recipient wasn't even willing to purchase the full orchestra, so it was revised, and before anyone could possibly have purchased anything relying on the original post


I call horse crap on this. EW has been making these products for a long time. They know the costs involved with making something like this. It's nothing new to them. When the comment was made that it would be free for people who owned it already, someone simply got greedy and said "why would we do that when they will obviously give us more money for it in one form or another?" Maybe it was a marketing tactic to begin with in order to get peoples attention. Tell them it's free so buzz gets around about it, people will want it then "OOPS! Our mistake!". By then they will all want it so bad they will be lining up to give us money for it!



> So, now that the instruments are nearing release, we have made another offer to get the full orchestra for 80% off, which is very generous even if you have one or more sections. It includes a hard drive and qualifies the purchaser for the free Harp as well ... a great deal, right
> 
> Plus, it can be obtained as part of Composer Cloud, including the upcoming Solo Cello and Solo Violin, which collectively cost a lot to produce and took almost a year of recording and post production; so that's another option; all 3 Hollywood Solo Instruments plus the 2 new ProDrummer products already added after the Composer Cloud launch, 5 new products in total, over $1200 worth of products plus the 9000+ instruments already included for $29.99/mo!
> 
> So, the company is giving a free instrument that has substantial value to tens of thousands of users that qualify ... for absolutely nothing!"








And there it is. It doesn't matter to them that some people have spent over a grand on their product already if they bought one of the sets when they first came out; they want MORE! Riddle me this... why not give it to people then who already spent the $600+ for one of the other pieces? Oh, that's right, because EW wouldn't be able to make even more money. You know, even though they are claiming it's "too generous" to give away that they require you to give an additional $600 even though some people already paid double that for a single section.

Oh, and we gotta get in that obligatory plug for Composer Cloud in there as well. As if trying to market to already pissed off people isn't enough, let's kick them in the balls some more by telling them to use a subscription service.

Yah, I'm done with EW. Good products but absolutely terrible business ethics. If Doug is smart, he will revert to his original decision and give it to people as he originally said he would. I don't foresee that actually happening though because I don't believe that EW really cares one way or another with their "We've sold millions of dollars worth of product! We're so awesome!" attitude they seem to have.

Yes, this is over the top, probably crossing the line response but I'm pissed about a lot of the things EW has been doing in the past 5-6 years or so. This one is just the icing on the cake.


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## OleJoergensen (Oct 27, 2015)

The Harp has suddenly become a very dramatic instrument .
Wether I will receive it for free or must pay 100 dollars for it, I hope it has the same standard as the rest of Hollywood serie and I will enjoy it, simply just love the Harp!


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## Baron Greuner (Oct 27, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> Good people, We've seen this movie so many times, it's like endless re-runs of some 70's sitcom.




You mean like Fawlty Towers? 

Fawlty Towers Sample Libraries. 

Because Doug_does_not_care!


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## Simon Ravn (Oct 27, 2015)

For a couple of days I actually considered getting the Gold edition of the complete collection (already own Gold brass + Diamond strings - have no reason whatsoever to get woods...), to qualify for the harp. I thought I maybe could find some use for some of the percussion. Then I realized that I just bought Berlin Percussion (which I think has so much stuff covered, so much potential), and already had Cineperc + Spitfire Perc, which made me think "WTF were you thinking about!?!? You don't need this library, you are so well covered with all you already own, and who knows - maybe the EW harp will not be very good". So I cancelled that purchase. So glad I did that for that reason and the ones presented here too (PLAY/Doug's lack of ethics etc).


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## Udo (Oct 27, 2015)

Offering a 12 string harp for free and then charging for the full string upgrade would of course improve the "business ethics" aspect of the situation .....


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## MarcelM (Oct 27, 2015)

i got banned on the forums during the prodrummer release. i didnt do anything wrong except saying that it was bugged at release and confirmed that they were deleting posts at their forums.

even if they would offer the whole orchestra for $300, i wouldnt buy it because they treat customers like they do!


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## Simon Ravn (Oct 27, 2015)

Doug is not exactly a fan of free speech...


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## Baron Greuner (Oct 27, 2015)

Simon Ravn said:


> Doug is not exactly a fan of free speech...



That's because ….. Doug_does_not_care!

(who is Doug btw?)


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## Simon Ravn (Oct 27, 2015)

Doug Rogers - owner of East West Studios as far as I know.


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## trumpoz (Oct 27, 2015)

Where is the emoticon of someone beating a dead horse?


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## muk (Oct 27, 2015)

This one?


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## Hanu_H (Oct 27, 2015)

I don't understand how this is beating a dead horse...this thread is about the new "free" harp library.

-Hannes


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## shakuman (Oct 27, 2015)

Lawson. said:


> Ok, so before I say anything: I have a lot of EW products and they're some of my favorites. I have thought they were a great company and have defended them against attacks on here, but I'm considering not buying from them anymore.
> 
> As we all know, EW promised that they would give out a free harp for any customer of any volume of the Hollywood series. Then, without any announcement, they changed it to having to own the entire Hollywood Orchestra. People who have spent $1000s on EW products throughout the years but don't happen to own the entire orchestra don't get the harp, yet someone who buys the entire orchestra on sale for $599 yesterday can.
> 
> ...



++++1


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## Christof (Oct 27, 2015)

Folks, don't waste your time and negative energy on things like a free harp.
Go and write some nice music


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## playz123 (Oct 27, 2015)

Even if I and others don't care about this issue, or Doug won't change his mind, or some complaints have been registered before etc., I also suggest concern about the provision of 'the harp' is indeed a new and legitimate issue for some and they have every right to mention it and discuss it, even if the discussion leads nowhere. Just as it's been quite alright for EW fans here to post pages about their love for the company or their products, and get support they can't get at EW, it seems quite reasonable to me that people who have little respect for the company should also be heard as well. There's also a difference between "bashing" and legitimate complaints, so my hope is we stick with the latter though. Thankfully this forum allows dissent, unlike EW's own forum, and thankfully Doug and crew have no say about what is expressed here. Instead Jay acts as EW's representative, so we still are made aware of their excuses and policies.
My suggestion is not go make nice music and be quiet; rather if this issue interests you then by all means comment....and if it doesn't then simply move on to another thread.


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 27, 2015)

OK, I was asked by someone to be more forthcoming on this, so I will make one statement and then bow out of the discussion.

First of all, for those of you who do not have the complete orchestra, but read that they would get the free harp anyway, got excited and now are disappointed, I understand how you feel. I really do.

That said: The only _logical_ reason IMHO for EW to give _anyone_ a free harp that cost a lot of time and money to produce was the argument that "it is part of a standard Hollywood orchestra and therefore should have included with the strings or percussion anyway, so it should be free to complete the orchestra."

There is in my mind _zero_ logic to giving it free to someone who has not bought the full orchestra. If it were my company it would never have even crossed my mind to offer that.

That said, Doug did initially write that it would be so. In my experience with him, he is impulsive and since he owns the company, does not have to answer to anyone. He had this very (too) generous impulse at that moment and wrote what he wrote. _Very_ shortly after apparently, he was made to realize by someone else at the company that this was unwise financially and also, that he was giving it free to people who really were not entitled to it. So he walked it back and replaced it with what is after all a still generous offer. I think most will agree that if had made this offer from the beginning, it would indeed by perceived as generous.

In my mind, the time frame is the key. If he did it three months later, after people had made purchasing decisions based on the lure of the free harp, I would say that was wrong. If he did it almost right away, before that could happen, then I don't think he is obligated to stick by it.

For those of you who disagree, who take the absolutist view that once written it is carved in stone, and any deviation from that is "bad ethics" well, I don't share that belief.


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## Simon Ravn (Oct 27, 2015)

I wonder who "someone" is. Begins with a "D", ends with an "oug" by any chance?

Of course you don't share the belief of this being "bad business ethics" - you are in the pockets of EW, you loyally share Doug's belief. It's totally understandable - from a business perspective. Of course you wouldn't say the same if you were allowed your own opinion here. Which you are not. 

There have been many reasons to dislike EW over the years - this is just another leaf on top of that pile. I know what you would say - that Doug would say - (and since you have for the 2nd or 3rd time "bowed out of this" you can't chime in, so I will just make an educated guess): "Doug doesn't care". That seems to be the usual answer when someone here criticizes EW - oddly enough, "someone" wants you to defend every criticism here nevertheless. Doesn't seem like he doesn't care to me.


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## reddognoyz (Oct 27, 2015)

I am inclined to agree with Jay. Remember, none of these software developers are exactly Halliburton, these are small companies, run by humans. Humans in the music business even. I would allow for a momentary lapse of judgement and not consider it "bad ethics". Let's save "bad ethics" for people who mark up HIV medications an unconscionable amount, and the like...


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## reddognoyz (Oct 27, 2015)

....and Jay isn't a congressmen who is in the employ of the NRA : ) he's a simple backwoods composer, caught in the crossfire. easy now....


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 27, 2015)

Simon Ravn said:


> I wonder who "someone" is. Begins with a "D", ends with an "oug" by any chance?
> 
> Of course you don't share the belief of this being "bad business ethics" - you are in the pockets of EW, you loyally share Doug's belief. It's totally understandable - from a business perspective. Of course you wouldn't say the same if you were allowed your own opinion here. Which you are not.



No, it was not Doug. He told me I was wasting my time, that people will believe what they want to believe.

And I would say EXACTLY what I said if I did not work for EW. One of the things I said to Doug when he offered me the job was, "please understand I will never write something I don't believe to be true."

And he said, "I would never ask you to." 

And he never has. When I disagree with him, I say nothing publicly, only privately, so if i disagreed with him on this, I would have let it sit with my first post quoting him and not written this subsequent post. Disagree with me if you like, but please don't question my integrity. I don't deserve that.


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## playz123 (Oct 27, 2015)

Jay, I for one, have never questioned your integrity, as you know. On the other hand, I can't help but wonder why EW feels it is necessary to have a representative of their company posting on other forums, defending their policies, entering into every discussion, even ones that wouldn't be allowed on their own forum. On one hand, it does provide assistance to EW customers, but isn't that what their own forum is supposed to offer? Why so many threads here about EW when they have their own forum? On the other hand, it then provides an opportunity to also defend the company and inform dissenters they might just be wrong, and make sure EW's voice is heard, no matter what people post. Every discussion that takes place here about EW, good or bad, usually also contains posts from EW's representative, where as other developers seem to only post directly from time to time. Why isn't Doug here, like Paul is for Spitfire? Is it because Doug prefers to deflect criticism over to someone else? Why can't Doug respond directly for his own company? I suggest it is partially because a lot of people have a lot of problems with EW, and I'm not talking just about their products, so Doug would probably not do well here.
All I'm saying here, there are a number of areas where EW restricts 'free speech' on their own forum, yet have no problem constantly offering comments and policy statements on other forums. Like the harp saga, some things just don't sit well with others, whether EW cares or not. You've helped a lot of people here which is admirable, but sometimes I also think your job puts you in a position I, personally, would never choose to be in. In good conscience, I could never honestly defend some of things that you have had to tackle. Guess that's why they pay you the big bucks!  In any case, don't ever take comments about EW as a personal attack on you, the job you are hired to do or your integrity.


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## Peter Costa (Oct 27, 2015)

catsass said:


> So, in other words, don't harp on it?


this thread is like a harp-poon through the harp.. i mean heart  bah!


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 27, 2015)

Frank, I don't know how long you have been here but before I was hired, Doug and Nick would come here and engage and invariably someone would write something that they thought unfair and they would go ballistic and it would go downhill from there. But I was defending the EW products when I thought it was unfair (and Kirk Hunter's and Logic Pro's developers) calmly, logically, and with some technical expertise, so basically they hired me to do what I was already doing because they thought I was better at it than they were.

It can be trying at times like this, but I believe I do some good for both the company and the customers and I am OK with it, since I never write a word I don't believe.


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## playz123 (Oct 27, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Frank, I don't know how long you have been here but before I was hired, Doug and Nick would come here and engage and invariably someone would write something that they thought unfair and they would go ballistic and it would go downhill from there. But I was defending the EW products when I thought it was unfair (and Kirk Hunter's and Logic Pro's developers) calmly, logically, and with some technical expertise, so basically they hired me to do what I was already doing because they thought I was better at it than they were.
> 
> It can be trying at times like this, but I believe I do some good for both the company and the customers and I am OK with it.



Been here since 2011, which I think was before you were hired (?), and I do recall Nick posting here previously, and maybe Doug (once or twice?). I always welcomed Nick's input, good or bad. I also felt comfortable when 'they' defended their own policies, even if I didn't always agree with them. Other developers have faced criticism too, some of it outrageous and unwarranted. Some have left and some continue. But what they haven't done is hire someone easily identified to speak for them and take flack for the company, and then 'hide' from their customers.
I also know some of your background and again, any of my own comments here today, have never included references to your personal opinions or your expertise. I KNOW you know that, but I did want to state it, perhaps for the benefit of others. In fact, you also know that I too have stepped up to defend many products and developers here as well. In brief my own comments today have all been about EW and were not intended to reflect negatively on you or the job you do.

But now, I must apologize to Lawson if somehow anything I've said has deflected the discussion away from his original post about the harp situation. In fairness, that's really what this thread is about and why it was started.


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## Lawson. (Oct 27, 2015)

playz123 said:


> But now, I must apologize to Lawson if somehow anything I've said has deflected the discussion away from his original post about the harp situation. In fairness, that's really what this thread is about and why it was started.



No need to apologize; I started this thread for the exact reason. Discussion, information, and opinions of EW policy/ethics. You're totally on-topic. 

I haven't commented because I've said what I wanted to say, and now I just have been listening to everyone else.


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## Anders Wall (Oct 27, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> It can be trying at times like this, but I believe I do some good for both the company and the customers and I am OK with it.


You do.
Just a reflection, for the record I own all four of the HW series.
And I've had a go at what I thought was fair re: updates to scripts (not samples) to no avail but that's not why I ask this.

Since the pedal harp has been a part of the orchestra since the 19th century, the "harp" is much older than that but I guess this is a pedal harp, wouldn't it be fair for East West to include it in the String or Percussion group in their Hollywood series?

I do not know anything about the articulations recorded, but if it's standard orchestral articulations and not extended techniques then, in all fairness, that is what should be.
But if the Harp includes more contemporary techniques as:
bisbigliando-with-stick, buzzing-pedal, double-glissando
glissando-near-the-board, glissando-with-nail, glissando-with-pedal, glissando-with-stick
pizzicato-bartok, scratch-with-nail, tap-on-body, tap-with-stick
tremolo-with-fingertips, xylophonic sounds

then this is something that's not common in "traditional" orchestral writing and the Harp would be a "true" solo instrument that happen to be recorded in the same studio as the rest of the HW series.

Best,
Anders


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## muk (Oct 27, 2015)

As often the problem is not so much the mistake itself, but how it is handled in my opinion. If something like this happens you should apologize, explain your reasons, and then try to make sure that the same mistake doesn't happen again. I often find that EW isn't as good as other companies in points 1 and 3, but that is just my opinion.


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## procreative (Oct 27, 2015)

This is just more of the same for me. Developers seem to more and more chase new customers, deals come along slashing prices for bundles often way lower than just one product.

In this case the kicker is that many owners of Diamond versions may have paid way more than $599 for just one title. There is no distinction between someone who has spent $2000 or more yet only owns 2 or 3 titles in the series and someone who has just bought the whole series in the sale.

Seems customer loyalty means less and less. Oh well. Nevermind the change of mind over the original statement.

Its their choice, its their business model etc etc. But its nothing new, I said the same about the Albion ONE cross grade. 

I guess the only way to win is to resist unless you absolutely have to have it, then in 6 months pick it up for $50 in their next once in a lifetime sale


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## Anders Wall (Oct 27, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> That is all fair enough Anders except that anyone who bought the strings knew the harp was not part of it and the same is true for the percussion.
> 
> And although I have not seen it yet, I expect the harp will be like the percussion; a traditional instrument without some of the more avant garde things.


Yes, can't argue that.
But I would be great for EW to include it in the HW-percussion (or string...) for new customers.
That is, if it's a "standard" orchestral harp-library.

Then again, sorry guys and gals, one could argue that having a string quartet within the orchestra also is more or less standard in orchestral writings ever since ***optional composer dating back to Strauss or even earlier, but Strauss comes to mind*** and therefore also "should" be free for those who own the string library...

I would not expect that from any company.

Best,
Anders


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## D.Salzenberg (Oct 27, 2015)

To be fair to East West, they changed the offer within a short timeframe , so didn't really cause anyone to lose out.
Yes customers who paid a lot of money to buy the products at full price years ago may feel at a disadvantage, but that happens in most areas of commerce. People who buy a new BMW or Mercedes sportscar when it first comes out pay a lot more than when the model has been out for a few years and dealers have to offer massive discounts to keep the sales figures moving along.
All businesses focus on offering the best deals to new customers, you see that everywhere from mobile phones to Sky TV, is that fair to loyal customers who signed up years ago? No not really, but that's business, and it's all about getting continuous new revenue rolling in.
I think for new customers East West products now look very good value, and the free trial of composer cloud is an excellent idea also.


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## Jetzer (Oct 27, 2015)

Broken promises? Give me a break. Someone figured it was a better deal to give the Harp away for people who have the full orchestra. Explanation seems plausible + it's a better marketing deal which is what any smart company should do. Sure, feel a little disappointed. I felt that for a second, but then I focused on what matters. When I buy the percussion library, which I was going to do anyway, I get a free harp! Great!

The level of complaining is ridiculous.


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## guydoingmusic (Oct 27, 2015)

If I own 2 of the Hollywood series.... can I get half of the harp??


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## cyoder (Oct 27, 2015)

I'm disappointed, but I don't think it makes EW's deeds unethical.


JH said:


> When I buy the percussion library, which I was going to do anyway, I get a free harp!


I actually am interested if this is true or if the free harp is only if you own the whole series before the harp is released. @EastWestLurker Do you know?
I'll probably own both HOP and the harp eventually, but honestly I already have the tools I need to make good music. What I lack most are the chops, which you can't buy. I thought they came free if I owned any section of the Hollywood series? 
Best,


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## Geoff Grace (Oct 27, 2015)

reddognoyz said:


> I am inclined to agree with Jay. Remember, none of these software developers are exactly Halliburton, these are small companies, run by humans. Humans in the music business even. I would allow for a momentary lapse of judgement and not consider it "bad ethics". Let's save "bad ethics" for people who mark up HIV medications an unconscionable amount, and the like...


I mostly lurk here, but I enjoy reading these forums and would like to throw my two cents in the hat.

I've been an East West customer since I bought a CD-ROM drive for my Akai S1000 back in 1993, and I've always found the quality of their work to be very high. I think that's one of the reasons they've lasted so long while many of their competitors bit the dust.

Now that doesn't mean they are flawless; and from what I've read here, it appears that Doug made a mistake. In fact, from my perspective, it seems he made two mistakes: first making an offer that was financially unsound for his company and then retracting that offer, thereby alienating a significant group of his customer base. That can't be a financially sound choice either.

Nonetheless, those mistakes don't lead me to believe he has poor business ethics. Like *Stuart*, I think there are companies with real ethical problems that we could better focus this kind of energy on.

Secondly, there's the issue of our own choices. Are you considering cutting off your nose to spite your face? If you're making music purely for fun, then it makes more sense to me to stop purchasing from a company because you don't like its policies. But if you're a professional, then I think you owe it to yourself to buy the products that best help you make a living.

For example, my pet peeve has always been copy protection. I see copy protected software as booby trapped software that could fail on a legitimate customer at any minute. To me, it's the wrong solution to a legitimate problem. Nonetheless, I buy copy protected software anyway because to do otherwise would eliminate a wide swath of developers from my palette and seriously handicap my ability to make a living in a profession that's already difficult enough to make a living in.

Of course, YMMV; but those are my two shiny copper Lincolns.

Best,

Geoff


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## Astronaut FX (Oct 27, 2015)

I wouldn't categorize it as bad business ethics. At the same time, it does seem like yet one more example of EW not really caring about how happy (or unhappy) their customers are. Fair or otherwise, I've heard this enough to be hesitant about buying anything else from them. 

It helps to remember that nearly all sample library developers are musicians and/or composers by trade, and aren't always the best businessmen, nor are they able to deal with criticism about their products or their company without taking it so personally that the react badly, thus damaging their PR. Most of them should consider hiring customer service professionals to represent them.


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## germancomponist (Oct 27, 2015)

Come on, guys, have you never once said anything during an enthusiasm what you have afterwards corrected (in a so short time)? This already repeatedly happened to myself and I forgive both, myself as well as others who did the same. 
Reminds me to a sentence Daniel James wrote about me in the past:"Gunther has his moments" ... .


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 27, 2015)

Wow, thanks to so many of you for being understanding and balanced in your assessment. It makes me feel better now about this forum than I have for quite a while.

That is not meant as a blanket criticism of those who see it differently btw.


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## DR BOOWHO (Oct 27, 2015)

8DIO seem to have found a way of rewarding loyalty with their V8P program. At least they look at the accumulating spend on their entire range, not just on a blinkered view of a selection of products that rewards some and leave others feeling unappreciated.


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## lpuser (Oct 27, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> No, it was not Doug. He told me I was wasting my time, that people will believe what they want to believe.



I think many of those who are disappointed are people who mostly own not just one but several EW products. I own 3 parts of the HW bundle (plus some more stuff), but not the Percussion because I simply don´t have the need for it.

Now the funny thing is: While at the same time a free Harp is considered too expensive for those who own 2 or 3 bundles, EW can afford to offer the complete Orchestra (4 bundles) for a whopping rebate. Meaning those who are not entitled today, have most likely paid the equal or even much higher amount of money to EW already in the past. That leaves me scratching my head. But maybe I should stop in order to keep the last few remaining hairs  Doug won´t replace them for free either  ... ah, just kidding.


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## james7275 (Oct 27, 2015)

Like somebody else already mentioned, if east west did indeed change it within a couple of days of the announcement, then I don't think it's a big deal.
Now as far as people being upset about east west and their lack of loyalty to long time customers, then I agree. It seems like all of east west's deals are geared towards newer customers.
Couldn't east west allow people who own any part of the Hollywood orchestra to complete their bundle during the sale, and pay the difference of the discounted price? Seems fair to me.


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## MA-Simon (Oct 27, 2015)

DR BOOWHO said:


> 8DIO seem to have found a way of rewarding loyalty with their V8P program. At least they look at the accumulating spend on their entire range, not just on a blinkered view of a selection of products that rewards some and leave others feeling unappreciated.


The difference here is: With V8P you still have to pay for those rewards. The Harp is free.
So I don't see the problem at all.


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## dcoscina (Oct 27, 2015)

The question is which version of the Hollywood orchestra does one need to qualify? Does it go right down to Silver or does one at least need Gold for the deal?


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## DR BOOWHO (Oct 27, 2015)

MA-Simon said:


> The difference here is: With V8P you still have to pay for those rewards. The Harp is free.
> So I don't see the problem at all.


Its not a question of a free product, its a question of making your loyal customers feel they have some value for their continued support


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## Mystic (Oct 27, 2015)

My comments towards EW are often harsh but it's because I can't really talk about them without getting slightly enraged because of situations I've been in before with them and because I feel they are a very pretentious company that seems to believe they can walk all over everyone and get away with it because they have good products and lots of sales. I wholeheartedly disagree with a company that runs themselves like that but much like the belief that they are a company with the sole purpose of capitalism, to me this is also business... not personal; even if sometimes it's hard to separate the two. When I see things like this come up, it makes it that much worse because it's like watching the hole get dug deeper. Eventually people will get sick of it and simply stop buying due to the headaches they have to deal with later.


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## Red (Oct 27, 2015)

Wow...
This is ridiculous. Some of you just need a basic lesson in economics.
or any type of critical thinking class.

First of all, I have never experienced lack of customer service from EW.
Even though I own around 15 products, never really had trouble dealing with them in the first place.
Maybe i just read the manuals right.
But I did, on 3 ocassions, enquired about their discount programs and etc. through their customer service page. They were fast and straight to the point in replying for all 3 accounts.
Now i'm not saying that all you guys are lying about them being slow and unresponsive.
I'm just stating my experience.

Second, and the most important point. Remember when a 16gb ram was hella expensive?5~7 years ago? exactly when Hollywood strings were hella expensive?
Yet didn't we pay a lot for 16gb ram, because it would have meant that we had 16gb ram in 2009?
(i'm sure big dogs had way more ram. but for me in 2009 8ram was plenty)

Hollywood strings was the best. Yes, the best string library when it was released. Now it has competitors. Of course the price is going to go down.

The same logic applies to ; software, dvd, video games, electronics, etc... just about everything in life.


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## Guido Negraszus (Oct 27, 2015)

One should never forget that every company is here to make money - period! Yes, there are companies I like more then others because they seem friendlier and maybe engage more with us on these forums. Nevertheless, its business. As long as East West don't break any laws they can conduct their business in any way they see fit. So can any other developer! I myself disagree with Spitfires recent Albion stunt "R.I.P. and then "long live the King" BUT they are entitled to do so. Spitfire wants our money so does any other company, the more and the faster the better. In sales there are no ethics there is only "give me your money"! Do I like it? No! But I am pragmatic: so I just purchased the HOW Diamond bundle, fell on my knees and thanked the Lord and then I am going to make music with it!


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## Guido Negraszus (Oct 27, 2015)

Red said:


> Remember when a 16gb ram was hella expensive?5~7 years ago?



Actually I remember paying $900 for 2 MB extra ram for my Akai S-1000 in 1991! We live in good times!


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## kitekrazy (Oct 27, 2015)

OleJoergensen said:


> The Harp has suddenly become a very dramatic instrument .
> Wether I will receive it for free or must pay 100 dollars for it, I hope it has the same standard as the rest of Hollywood serie and I will enjoy it, simply just love the Harp!



POTW. I was more intrigued by the $399 for the HO gold edition.


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## Zhao Shen (Oct 27, 2015)

I'm a bit disappointed the Harp won't be provided to everyone just because I'm only missing HOP and don't think I'll be picking it up anytime soon, but maybe this was a step too far. "Bad business ethics"? That's quite a harsh accusation - I'd have thought EW reused samples from their SO harp or something if I judged only by the title. Despite any issues I've had with EW in the past, this is pushing the line.


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## Zhao Shen (Oct 27, 2015)

Guido Negraszus said:


> Actually I remember paying $900 for 2 MB extra ram for my Akai S-1000 in 1991! We live in good times!


._. Oh how technology has advanced. Makes me excited for the future


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## Guido Negraszus (Oct 27, 2015)

Zhao Shen said:


> ._. Oh how technology has advanced. Makes me excited for the future


That's why I think this new East West offer is such an amazing deal even though I already have Strings/Brass Gold. I mean its $120.00 per library (incl. the Harp).


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## Geoff Grace (Oct 27, 2015)

As long as we're tallying up the pros and cons of East West over the years, it's only fair we include this highlight from 2006:

EastWest Sounds Purchases Cello Studios

So many great studios have been demolished since the turn of the century. (New York's Hit Factory, and LA's Enterprise, Royaltone, O'Henry, One On One, and the Todd-AO and Paramount scoring stages come to mind.) The studio that began as United Western Recorders is one of the greatest of all time; and thanks to East West, not only was it not torn down in 2006, but nearly another decade of great recordings was added to its legacy.

Was this done for entirely altruistic reasons? Of course not, but we benefitted from it anyway.

And for what it's worth, I have no affiliation with East West other than being a longtime satisfied customer.

Best,

Geoff


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## Anders Wall (Oct 27, 2015)

guydoingmusic said:


> If I own 2 of the Hollywood series.... can I get half of the harp??


I don't think you can run any of it on your system 
/Anders

Edit: This makes no sense without guydoingmusic's tagline…
"Commodore 128 PC, Windows 1.0, 128 kB of RAM and ROM cartridge port"


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## NYC Composer (Oct 28, 2015)

Just for the record- in case anyone is referring to my earlier statement and getting "bad business ethics", I said nothing of the sort. I said that Doug Rogers does not care what you think of his business practices. I've come to understand that what _I_ think about those business practices is irrelevant in any logical sense, and apparently I've made practical decisions regarding purchases of the samples he sells (which have been quite useful to me).

I own three parts of HO and about 90% of the libraries released before them, mostly because of the involvement of Nick Phoenix, who is, in my opinion, a genius at the art of sampling.


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## procreative (Oct 28, 2015)

To withdraw the offer was not so much bad business ethics, just poor thinking.

However the justification given that they did not want to give the product away to those that did not own all 4 Hollywood series is disingenuous. What they really meant was those that are putting extra revenue their way as of now are more deserving.

As many have stated, even as recently as a few months back they have spent considerably more on 1, 2 or 3 products in the range than those buying the whole series now. That fact is not the issue as its just called sods law.

However its just the principle that those paying the least (almost the original price of HOP alone) also get the Harp for free. Its just another long line of companies rewarding newcomers better.

Me personally, I'll stick with the 3 I own as I do not need another Percussion library and even on sale that is £280 or so I do not need to spend. A new harp is not my top priority, I have useable harps already.


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## D.Salzenberg (Oct 28, 2015)

Mystic said:


> My comments towards EW are often harsh but it's because I can't really talk about them without getting slightly enraged because of situations I've been in before with them and because I feel they are a very pretentious company that seems to believe they can walk all over everyone and get away with it because they have good products and lots of sales. I wholeheartedly disagree with a company that runs themselves like that but much like the belief that they are a company with the sole purpose of capitalism, to me this is also business... not personal; even if sometimes it's hard to separate the two. When I see things like this come up, it makes it that much worse because it's like watching the hole get dug deeper. Eventually people will get sick of it and simply stop buying due to the headaches they have to deal with later.


Jeez! Do you not understand that a company which makes Sample Libraries is not a charity for the benefit of musicians anymore than BMW is a charity for motorists, or Apple is for computer users. Look at Apple, they have some of the most appalling business practices known to man, you can't even change the battery on their phones, let alone add ram to their computers without paying a zillion times more than you would for a pc because it's proprietary apple ram.
And here we have people complaining about the terms of a FREE product!!!!! 
I really don't think East West have done anything wrong here at all. The deals they are offering look very very good value. As I said earlier, people who buy stuff when it's first release nearly always pay much more for the privilege, no matter what type of product you are talking about. If you could afford to buy at the full price you obviously decided itvwas worth it to you at that price at that moment. Years later the price will come down, sometimes by a large amount, if you want to take advantage of that then wait and don't buy brand new shiny products. You can't have it both ways, and if you think you should be able to, it's you who are being greedy and unreasonable not the company selling the product.


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## dtcomposer (Oct 28, 2015)

They should have offered a "complete your orchestra" discount with the harp as the motivation to finish the collection. I probably would have jumped on a deal like that since I only need HOP to finish my set. I just couldn't justify purchasing 3 libraries that I already own no matter the discount. Seeing how cheap the new bundle is also makes it tough to stomach paying full price for one library. If they had offered HOP for 1/4th of the full bundle price I'm pretty sure I would have gone for it. I think it makes even more sense to show some small gesture of goodwill for long-time customers considering the confusion regarding Doug's earlier statement.

Feel free to use this suggestion, and watch the money roll in 

All that being said, I don't think they owe me anything. If the quality of the harp is high enough I would rather just wait a while and buy whatever new EW stuff I want when they have their next bundle sale.


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## jononotbono (Oct 28, 2015)

I've had my eyes on Hollywood Strings since it's release. I could not afford it back then (it was £1k) let alone afford the Computer Power to run it. What a glorious time we now live in. The EW HO will be my next purchase and yes, me being a new customer, that is a hell of a deal (even if the Harp wasn't included for free).


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## procreative (Oct 28, 2015)

As usual those that have just got the great deals think everything is great and rain on those that did not and those that paid mega bucks are not so happy.

Genuinely I am pleased for those that got the great deals, its just the way things work out.

But I just think its a shame companies do not think out their deals a bit more. No differentiation between someone who paid $599 for the whole lot and someone else who paid a lot more for just one title.

But hey its only a harp so I am not going to lose any sleep over it.


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## AllanH (Oct 28, 2015)

It seems to me that EWQL is missing an opportunity and is leaving money on the table: If they offered the Harp to anyone with an incomplete HO (any type) for $50, my guess is that most would take it and be happy.

Maybe EWQL already announced an upgrade path and associated cost, but from what I see most reactions are from being "left out" rather than having to pay a nominal cost.

It is generally more difficult to get a new customer than keeping an existing one, so imo EWQL would do well by keeping the existing customers happy. If existing customers can be kept happy by offering them a special upgrade deal - so much the better for everyone (incl. EWQL).

My two cents from decades in businesses.


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## jacobthestupendous (Oct 28, 2015)

AllanH said:


> from what I see most reactions are from being "left out" rather than having to pay a nominal cost.


That's part of it. Another part of it is dissatisfaction that what many bought at very significant cost is now being sold for merely a nominal cost. It's part of the the win-lose deal that any library developer apparently faces any time they consider making a discount (see the recent 800+ replies on the Albion I discount/Albion One crossgrade announcements and the ensuing reconsiderations of VI-C policies). It isn't explicitly an F-you to the installed user base, but it feels like an implicit one to many here. That F-you is made worse by being (finally!) promised something as a reward for their premium patronage, and then hearing "just kidding, you actually have to pay the same "nominal" cost as everyone else that's already getting far more than what you've already paid dearly for!" Add to that, many people's firsthand brushes with EW support and forum policies that could charitably be called suboptimal. Add also that many people seem to have a strong distaste for EW after they spent a lot of money on a product only to find out that PLAY wouldn't cooperate with their system or their workflow. And on and on... There's a lot of flammable baggage that comes along with any news from EastWest, and this recent news just happened to be inflammatory.

Personally, I don't have a dog in this fight, but it discredits people to say that they're just butthurt because they feel left out.



AllanH said:


> It is generally more difficult to get a new customer than keeping an existing one, so imo EWQL would do well by keeping the existing customers happy.


I'd venture that most people on this forum would prefer this approach as well.


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## JohnG (Oct 28, 2015)

I think the title of this thread is way over the top. If hundreds, or even dozens of people had made purchase decisions based on some short-lived announcement that would be one thing, but there is no evidence of that that I've seen. Not a single person whose post I read has said "I bought HS gold on the strength of this offer." Possibly that's because the offer was withdrawn very quickly?

In some instances, this thread reads like the complaints of discomfited children mad at daddy for changing his mind about how many sweets to buy at the movies.

I paid over $4,000 for the original EWQLSO when it came out. Now you can get it for $200 or something relatively trivial. Am I mad about it? I paid full price for LASS and Hollywood Strings when they came out, and have wiped my hard drives of innumerable "red hot" libraries that were superseded by better stuff or just went out of fashion. Am I mad about it?

It's a decision one makes with the information available at the time. Pricing changes, deals change or are withdrawn. I recently paid a lot of money for some other samples and bought other software that, later, may be much cheaper. That's life.

[note: I have received free products from East West]


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## Truth be told (Oct 28, 2015)

Way too many fine library choices out there these days to give my business to that are not run by a person that "just doesn't care" about his customers, or stand by his word.


Bad Business Ethics?
In my world, absolutely


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 28, 2015)

Truth be told said:


> Way too many fine library choices out there these days to give my business to that are not run by a person that "just doesn't care" about his customers, or stand by his word.
> 
> 
> Bad Business Ethics?
> In my world, absolutely



New member, and first message eh?


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## DR BOOWHO (Oct 28, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> New member, and first message eh?


Of course it must be one of the competitors.. How could it possibly be one of their customers?


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 28, 2015)

It could be indeed but I don't think it makes me paranoid to think that at a minimum it could also be a friend or fanboy of a competitor.


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## germancomponist (Oct 28, 2015)

An interesting member Name: "Truth be told" ... .


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## DR BOOWHO (Oct 28, 2015)

And im sure if one of the other companies acted in a similar fashion they would also receive this kind of backlash.


EastWest Lurker said:


> It could be indeed but I don't think it makes me paranoid to think that at a minimum it could also be a friend or fanboy of a competitor.


Well for arguments sake lets say it is a competitor, he agrees it is bad business ethics which means his company won't make the same mistakes that EastWest are making


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## Truth be told (Oct 28, 2015)

Yes, a new member, and one who does not get paid to lurk here either. I've been using VI for years, and before that synths, long in the tooth is a understatement. Own many libraries, from many companies, to the point it seems like obsession, and including many of east west's. All the way back from when they were one of the few games in town, like NI days. Truth be told, as in Music is Truth, and it should be told.

{Edit: I have not received any free stuff from eastwest, nor any other company, or know anyone from any of their competitors. Just call 'em as I see 'em}


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## playz123 (Oct 28, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> New member, and first message eh?


Jay, this is exactly what I was talking about earlier in this thread.....sometimes one can't post their comments or dissenting opinion about East West here without a representative of the company immediately stepping in and offering a contrary view or a comment as a rebuttal. Do you have any information on which to base that remark today? I can only imagine how that would make a new 'genuine' member to the forum feel. My own feeling is maybe we could have a little less input from EW here on occasion?? Nothing to do with what "Jay" might wish to add as forum member. But you are posting under the EW banner and that is not the same thing.

Yesterday you mentioned you had said what you wanted to say and I think there are other members who are also adequately defending EW's position, so perhaps we could focus a bit more on that type of dialogue? With the greatest respect to you personally, sometimes I feel there may just be a little too much EW input here, especially since EW has their own forum. Just saying....


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 28, 2015)

So if it was your company and a guy came on who has never been here before and makes his first post and it is a strongly worded knock on your company, you wouldn't be suspicious in the least and say something?

I tell you what, I will make a deal with you: if this person becomes a regular member of our forum, praises some companies, knocks some others besides EW, then I will publicly apologize to him.


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## Carbs (Oct 28, 2015)

Yeah, we wouldn't want another Jonathan Kranz. That'd be despicable.


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## Mystic (Oct 28, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> So if it was your company and a guy came on who has never been here before and makes his first post and it is a strongly worded knock on your company, you wouldn't be suspicious in the least and say something?
> 
> I tell you what, I will make a deal with you: if this person becomes a regular member of our forum, praises some companies, knocks some others besides EW, then I will publicly apologize to him.


No because you are an ambassador of a professional company. You ignore it and move on rather than giving in and escalating a situation further.
Personally, I think you should apologise because you don't know that this person isn't genuine and you're not properly representing your company. If the person is indeed a troll, you just took the bait. First rule of internet customer service: never feed the trolls.


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 28, 2015)

Mystic said:


> No because you are an ambassador of a professional company. You ignore it and move on rather than giving in and escalating a situation further.
> Personally, I think you should apologise because you don't know that this person isn't genuine and you're not properly representing your company. If the person is indeed a troll, you just took the bait. First rule of internet customer service: never feed the trolls.



We are going to have to agree to disagree as to how I should respond. I don't "turn the other cheek.' Not who I am nor was it when I was hired.


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## Truth be told (Oct 28, 2015)

Never knocked the company, as I'm sure there are many fine folks, but rather expressed my opinion about its leader. Eastwest samples are as good as it gets, as are many other companies samples. It's leadership, and attitude towards its customers, that's another story. No need to apologize, especially if it's not heart felt. But the one who might want to put on the big boy pants in this regard, is the one who calls the shots directly, and not through spin doctors on the company's books.


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 28, 2015)

Truth be told said:


> Never knocked the company, as I'm sure there are many fine folks, but rather expressed my opinion about its leader. Eastwest samples are as good as it gets, as are many other companies samples. It's leadership, and attitude towards its customers, that's another story. No need to apologize, especially if it's not heart felt. But the one who might want to put on the big boy pants in this regard, is the one who calls the shots directly, and not through spin doctors on the company's books.



What so he can argue with guys like you, lose his temper (yes, he has a temper) and get aggravated? He sees that as a waste of his time and I think that is true. And my apology WILL be heartfelt if you prove my suspicions wrong by becoming a regular and productive member of the forum so at that point I will apologize.

But objectively, can you not see why i might be suspicious where it is your first post ever here?


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## ptsmith (Oct 28, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Frank, I don't know how long you have been here but before I was hired, Doug and Nick would come here and engage and invariably someone would write something that they thought unfair and they would go ballistic and it would go downhill from there. But I was defending the EW products when I thought it was unfair (and Kirk Hunter's and Logic Pro's developers) calmly, logically, and with some technical expertise, *so basically they hired me to do what I was already doing because they thought I was better at it than they were.*
> 
> It can be trying at times like this, but I believe I do some good for both the company and the customers and I am OK with it, since I never write a word I don't believe.



I don't know, Jay. Are you really doing better? I think you'd better serve EW by ignoring about 3/4 of this stuff. Like playz123 said, too much EW sometimes.


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 28, 2015)

I think if you look over EW threads the last few months you will find that I do let a lot more slide than I used to


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## Truth be told (Oct 28, 2015)

_No, not _really, as the facts are the facts, but it's a standard tactic of spin to divert. 
As you posted:
"There is in my mind _zero_ logic to giving it free to someone who has not bought the full orchestra. If it were my company it would never have even crossed my mind to offer that.

That said, Doug did initially write that it would be so. In my experience with him, he is impulsive and since he owns the company, does not have to answer to anyone"
So lets see:

"If it were my company it would never have even crossed my mind to offer that."

Perhaps could take credit for being instrumental in turning him?

And this:

"That said, Doug did initially write that it would be so. In my experience with him, he is impulsive and since he owns the company, does not have to answer to anyone"

Sure about that? Seems like he's answering to the court of public opinion to me.


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 28, 2015)

Truth be told said:


> _No, not _really, as the facts are the facts, but it's a standard tactic of spin to divert.
> As you posted:
> "There is in my mind _zero_ logic to giving it free to someone who has not bought the full orchestra. If it were my company it would never have even crossed my mind to offer that.
> 
> ...



No, he rarely asks my opinion. He has people at EW who have worked with and for him for many, many years.

And anyone who has been here a while will tell you that I am very plain spoken whether it is EW related or not, and that when I tell you I believe something, I believe it.

Some people do not like that about me, but since I have more "likes" than any other member, I have to assume that some at least accept it.


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## MarcelM (Oct 28, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Well, speaking for myself, I have contributed all I can to the discussion. Nothing I say will improve on what Doug himself wrote, which i think is very understandable and reasonable in that time frame. So any games will proceed without me as a participant.



ew guys say something and act different then huh?


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 28, 2015)

Heroix said:


> ew guys say something and act different then huh?


Yes, I got sucked in (sigh)


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## Carbs (Oct 28, 2015)

Heroix said:


> ew guys say something and act different then huh?



Jay says that all the time. In fact, the more adamant he is about staying out of a thread the more likely he is to participate in it. It's weird.


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## Geoff Grace (Oct 28, 2015)

This is only my 35th post at this site since I joined in 2009, but I've amassed well over 10,000 posts in other music forums on the Internet.

In all of those posts, I've been told only once that I changed someone's mind; but I've been thanked more times than I can count for sharing helpful information.

I'm not saying this to pat myself on the back, but merely to express how futile it can be to try to change people's minds compared to how easy it is to help them along their path.

Best,

Geoff


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 28, 2015)

Carbs said:


> Jay says that all the time. In fact, the more adamant he is about staying out of a thread the more likely he is to participate in it. It's weird.


And I actually mean it when I say it but then somebody writes something that I deem unfair or nasty and I can't seem to not respond Ah well.


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## Truth be told (Oct 28, 2015)

"more "likes" than any other member"

Gee, I'm impressed!
But I've been drinking milk...So 
Somehow I got the feeling, that when all is said and done, having the most toys, like likes, will really matter.


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## Carbs (Oct 28, 2015)

This is a gearslutz post from 2010, but I think it's hilariously fitting. I'm quoting it because you have to be a registered member to actually read the thread this is in (highly recommended by the way). One does not need to be a brand spanking new member to be a shill! Read on....

The post was created by Gearslut member/internet detective "everythinglouder" - It's a little long so I've shortened it a bit to include just the most interesting parts (bolded emphasis not mine):
_
"Now here's what I have to say:

A discovery was made about an EW employee which was highlighted in the Thread just moments before the entire Thread was deleted. It was the most damning thing I had ever learned about EastWest, and most of you who were following the Thread probably hadn't had the chance to read that final post.

Here's what happened: While most of you saw that the user "UltimateComposer" had been exposed and proven to be an employee of EW by the name of Jonathan Kranz (which he continually denied), there was another suspicious user (later on in the Thread) defending EastWest named "ETM Dude." While not quite as hostile as UltimateComposer, ETM Dude was broadly defending EastWest and pushing the notion that they had done nothing wrong. Throughout his defense, he ignored the fact that EW had sent in a shill to act as a satisfied customer. Sending in a shill, I think we'd all agree, is definitely "doing something wrong."

So I was suspicious that this "ETM Dude" was another shill. He had been registered at GS for 3 years with 250 posts to his name, but there were a few alarming facts surrounding this account. He had disabled his vCard contact info (which was how I identified UltimateComposer) and he'd disabled all private message and email communications. "Red flag," I thought. Well upon googling "ETM Dude" I learned that pseudonym was registered at ProSoundWeb, Northern Sounds, MOTU-Nation, and soundsonline-forums.com (EastWest's own forums for troubleshooting, discussion, and announcements of sales/deals). On ETM Dude's user profile at ProSoundWeb, his real name was listed as -- who else -- Jonathan Kranz, the same fellow who was busted for shilling earlier on in the EW Thread over here at Gearslutz.

So at this point we had two shill accounts (created by the same EW employee) infiltrating the EW Thread, and not surprisingly neither of those accounts had a signature or any other means of identifying an affiliation with EastWest.

Now let me go back for a moment to ETM Dude's (Jonathan Kranz) accounts on the other above-mentioned forums: I have't got the exact details right in front of me as I'm at my GF's place on her laptop, but a few of his accounts (including the one at GS) had been active for the past 3 years, and way over 50% of his posts were EastWest product-related. Many of his posts were just alerts of new audio demos for EastWest products. Not terribly harmful, I don't think.

But the truly troubling fact at play here is/was the existence of an "ETM Dude" account at EastWest's own soundsonline-forums. (One of) Jonathan Kranz's official positions with EW is moderator at their forums. As moderator, he keeps the peace and jumps in with help whenever he's able to do so, much like a moderator at any other forum (I won't go into the claims that EW censors their forums -- I haven't witnessed it first-hand). *Yet Kranz had created this alternate persona "ETM Dude" which he used to inflate the perception of customer-satisfaction among EW's user base.*

I read through each one of Kranz's 137 posts as ETM Dude at soundsonline-forums.com and not once did he identify himself as an affiliate of EastWest. Common practice for ETM Dude would be to interject in threads that were critical of EW's policies, with statements like (paraphrasing) "I'm sorry but you are flat out wrong." He would jump into a Thread about lackluster EW phone-support and say "I've called them over a dozen times and have always had a pleasant experience." He on numerous occasions pointed out how great a job EW staffers were doing. And a healthy portion of his posts seemed to be written with the sole intention of convincing other users to jump on some killer monthly sale. Finally there were the flat-out propaganda posts: "New PLAY version 2.X. Working great! Problem free!!!!11"
---------------
This sheds a whole new light on Doug Rogers' plea for us all to visit the EW forums and see what a happy, satisfied, problem-free user-base he's got (which Doug fittingly refers to as his "database").

I felt it was important to expose EastWest for what Jonathan Kranz has been doing over at their own forums for the past 3 years. Not to mention all he's written as a "satisfied customer" at Gearzlutz, Northern Sounds, and MOTU-Nation. Doug Rogers often seems to bank on the selling point of "Well, why don't you come over to our forums and just see for yourself how happy everyone is." If an invitation like that was Doug Rogers' last line of defense amidst a bad PR storm, my biased opinion says he's finally lost his last little bit of credibility."_


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## DR BOOWHO (Oct 28, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> What so he can argue with guys like you, lose his temper (yes, he has a temper) and get aggravated? He sees that as a waste of his time and I think that is true. And my apology WILL be heartfelt if you prove my suspicions wrong by becoming a regular and productive member of the forum so at that point I will apologize.
> 
> But objectively, can you not see why i might be suspicious where it is your first post ever here?


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## MarcelM (Oct 28, 2015)

i think it would be better to have company officials only posting in advertisement forums or maybe some kind of support forum. 

maybe iam the only one but i find it kinda annoying to have an official jump into every topic or advertising their stuff stuff in every opportunity.


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## DR BOOWHO (Oct 28, 2015)

And so the arrogance of EastWest continues " Guys like you" . I take it you mean guys who have spent their hard earned money on your products and provided Mr Rogers with I would imagine a pretty comfortable lifestyle.If you are a spokesperson for EastWest I would suggest you refrain from mud slinging as it can only do harm to the company you represent


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## Truth be told (Oct 28, 2015)

Carbs said:


> This is a gearslutz post from 2010, but I think it's hilariously fitting. I'm quoting it because you have to be a registered member to actually read the thread this is in (highly recommended by the way). One does not need to be a brand spanking new member to be a shill! Read on....
> 
> The post was created by Gearslut member/internet detective "everythinglouder" - It's a little long so I've shortened it a bit to include just the most interesting parts (bolded emphasis not mine):
> _
> ...



Why does this not surprise me


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## Mike Greene (Oct 28, 2015)

Not just Jonathan Kranz, but there was also the whole Claudia Phoenix debacle. Jay, I think you want to be very careful about accusing other people of creating fake profiles. Something about glass houses.


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## playz123 (Oct 28, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> He sees that as a waste of his time and I think that is true. And my apology WILL be heartfelt if you prove my suspicions wrong by becoming a regular and productive member of the forum so at that point I will apologize.
> 
> But objectively, can you not see why i might be suspicious where it is your first post ever here?


Doug sees responding to his customers as a waste of time?

You are "suspicious" of someone, so that in turn gives you the right, as a representative of the company in question, to basically accuse and insult a new member... without _any_ proof at all your suspicions are correct? Wow. Sadly this sort of thing is exactly what goes on on the EW forum via EW employees though. However, as a respondent here I must admit I am sad to see that approach being transferred to this great forum. I also suggest this goes beyond what you were hired to do and instead reflects negatively on EW. Is it any wonder, that in spite of praising EW products, many people are totally turned off by the company itself? I've agreed with you about many things in the past, but this is one time I can't come to your defense.

In any case, a hearty Vi Forum welcome to @Truth be told, and as a member here, I apologize for the rude welcome you received, no matter what your background is. Please return and share your experiences with us.


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## Truth be told (Oct 28, 2015)

playz123 said:


> Doug sees responding to his customers as a waste of time?
> 
> You are "suspicious" of someone, so that in turn gives you the right, as a representative of the company in question, to basically accuse and insult a new member... without _any_ proof at all your suspicions are correct? Wow. Sadly this sort of thing is exactly what goes on on the EW forum via EW employees though. However, as a respondent here I must admit I am sad to see that approach being transferred to this great forum. I also suggest this goes beyond what you were hired to do and instead reflects negatively on EW. Is it any wonder, that in spite of praising EW products, many people are totally turned off by the company itself? I've agreed with you about many things in the past, but this is one time I can't come to your defense.
> 
> In any case, a hearty Vi Forum welcome to @Truth be told, and as a member here, I apologize for the rude welcome you received, no matter what your background is. Please return and share your experiences with us.


Thank you kindly kind sir. 
Guess it was to be expected given the lead of the leadership over there.


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 28, 2015)

Truth be told said:


> "more "likes" than any other member"
> 
> Gee, I'm impressed!
> But I've been drinking milk...So
> Somehow I got the feeling, that when all is said and done, having the most toys, like likes, will really matter.



Well, gee, it may occur to you that he reason I got the most likes, despite my job and my combativeness, is that I actually have helped a lot of people here? Something you have yet to prove you do? Nah, probably too much effort to consider.

All I can say is that a year from now, I am confident that one way or another people here will have a good handle on what you are as a forum member. I will be watching with some interest.

And Carbs, you are right, what Jonathan did was misguided at best and inexcusable and reflected poorly on EW. He is not a bad man, but what he did was totally wrong. But it was _not_ at Doug's instigation.


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## Truth be told (Oct 28, 2015)

"I actually have helped a lot of people here? Something you have yet to prove you do?"

Is their something I can help you with?

BTW, I just liked your post, so I guess I already have.


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## playz123 (Oct 28, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> I will be watching with some interest.


Well thanks, that's really good to know you will be watching other forum members and assessing their worthiness on our behalf and EW's as well. But you do realize too this isn't EW Forum II nor a subsidiary of that other great institution...Doug's highly controlled EW Forum...the original?  In any case, if you don't mind me saying so, I would really like to make my own observations and conclusions here, thanks, and I respectfully request EW refrain from trying to manage this thread the same way they do some of their own. Instead of being suspicious of new members, perhaps we should start being suspicious of EW and their role on this forum? On the other, I don't have quite as many Likes as EW might, so guess I'm supposed to keep my opinions to myself, and let the EW propaganda machine carry on as before. 
Time to shut down this thread perhaps?? I think Lawson now has the information he requested, and it seems we are all, me included, heading in a different direction today. My direction is far away from EW.  Jay, my friend, do as you see fit. I've probably said more than enough today.


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 28, 2015)

Mike Greene said:


> Not just Jonathan Kranz, but there was also the whole Claudia Phoenix debacle. Jay, I think you want to be very careful about accusing other people of creating fake profiles. Something about glass houses.



I didn't accuse him, Mike. I just wanted the others to notice that it was his very first post here. There HAVE been cases of people coming on forums, company members, friends or fanboys, posting negative things about a competitor, and then soon disappearing. As I said, if that turns out not to be the case with this individual as he proves to be a "real" member and contributor, I will publicly and sincerely apologize to him. In fact, I will be pleased if that is the case.

And I certainly had nothing to do with the false profiles, as I am sure you know. I think I had barely begun, if I had begun, my time with EW back in 2010.


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 28, 2015)

playz123 said:


> so guess I'm supposed to keep my opinions to myself, and let the EW propaganda machine carry on as before.



Not at all. I don't distrust your motives, Frank, even though we do not agree.


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## Carbs (Oct 28, 2015)

playz123 said:


> *Well thanks, that's really good to know you will be watching other forum members and assessing their worthiness on our behalf and EW's as well.* But you do realize too this isn't EW Forum II nor a subsidiary of that other great institution...Doug's highly controlled EW Forum...the original?  In any case, if you don't mind me saying so, I would really like to make my own observations and conclusions here, thanks, and I respectfully request EW refrain from trying to manage this thread this same way they do some of their own. Instead of being suspicious of new members, perhaps we should start being suspicious of EW and their role on this forum? On the other, I don't have quite as many Likes as EW might, so guess I'm supposed to keep my opinions to myself, and let the EW propaganda machine carry on as before.
> Time to shut down this thread perhaps?? I think Lawson now has the information he requested, and it seems we are all, me included, heading in a different direction today. My direction is far away from EW.



This is the main problem. Back when I first bought EWQLSO I did what I always do...an insane amount of internet research to figure out how to best use the product and what peoples opinions were. However, time after time, Jay would insert himself into any thread (I'm mainly talking gearslutz here) and attack people. He would even base how valid somebodies opinion is based on their _musical talent._ One instance (which, to his credit, he eventually apologized for) he went to somebodies website and insulted their music...and in the name of protecting EastWest from bad opinions. He's even said something to the affect of "well people can go to my site, and then go to your site and judge for themselves." People usually stop acting like this when they are no longer children.

I never had many issues with Play, in all honestly, and I can't run HS or HB very well but I know that's because my early 2011 macbook pro just can't cut it. Thats all FINE. What has consistently rubbed me the wrong way is the way Jay treats people. He pretends that he has some authority to judge anybody on a personal level. Normally the only thing a person did "wrong" was air a grievance with an EW product. Ad hominem attacks, appeals to authority, name dropping, it goes on and on.

And THAT is why I refuse to buy anything from East West from here on out. Not because their products are buggy (hell my spitfire template has plenty of bugs), but because I honestly can't support a company that treats people like dirt. It's like his job is no different from that of a white house press secretary...spin..spin..spin...

I honestly feel like Jay's personal interactions regularly do way more harm than good when it comes to topics like this. I don't care how many "Likes" you have...because there are PLENTY of people who probably know little to nothing about your history on the net. All they know about you is your achievements which you are always so quick to point out whenever a thread gets hairy. It's purely ignorance. I think if more people were aware of your internet history that you would have way less "Likes."

I've seen you say things like, "I'm not PR guy, I call it like I see it, and make no apologies for it." In the business world it doesn't matter if you are a "PR" guy or not...you are dealing with the public, by default you ARE PR. What you say and do reflects on the company you work for.

Is a waiter/waitress a PR person? No, not technically. But if you had crappy service you'll probably not go back to the restaurant.


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## germancomponist (Oct 28, 2015)




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## Carbs (Oct 28, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> I didn't accuse him, Mike. I just wanted the others to notice that it was his very first post here. There HAVE been cases of people coming on forums, company members, friends or fanboys, posting negative things about a competitor, and then soon disappearing. As I said, if that turns out not to be the case with this individual as he proves to be a "real" member and contributor, I will publicly and sincerely apologize to him. In fact, I will be pleased if that is the case.
> 
> And I certainly had nothing to do with the false profiles, as I am sure you know. I think I had barely begun, if I had begun, my time with EW back in 2010.



No, but if anybody cares to actually look at that thread from the post I quoted, you are in it. "Ashermusic" was the handle. You were bashing people in that thread too. Telling them to GROW UP...and this was AFTER the shill accounts were exposed.

I do believe it was probably after that thread that you got the job. It may have been the thread that GOT you the job for all I know. Doug Rogers didn't want to deal with it anymore (cuz of his temper I guess) and got himself a Press Secretary. 

It all stinks to high heaven.


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## Astronaut FX (Oct 28, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> So if it was your company and a guy came on who has never been here before and makes his first post and it is a strongly worded knock on your company, you wouldn't be suspicious in the least and say something?
> 
> I tell you what, I will make a deal with you: if this person becomes a regular member of our forum, praises some companies, knocks some others besides EW, then I will publicly apologize to him.





EastWest Lurker said:


> We are going to have to agree to disagree as to how I should respond. I don't "turn the other cheek.' Not who I am nor was it when I was hired.



In almost any other industry, the golden rule of customer service *is to turn the other cheek.* In most other industries, entering into verbal sparring sessions with customers (current or potential) is grounds for dismissal. Banning customers from being able to state their problems would be unthinkable.

I don't personally subscribe to the notion that the customer is always right. But I do subscribe to the notion that it's how you deal with the customer when they are wrong that defines the quality of your service.

Ever since I started spending time here, I've been amazed by how some developers fail to grasp the notion of good customer relations, and are more concerned with being "right" or defending their honor than they are of creating a good relationship with their customers.


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## Baron Greuner (Oct 28, 2015)

Yeah but Doug_just_doesn't_care...

Apparently.


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## Baron Greuner (Oct 28, 2015)

Hey that's a great record Gunther! I bought the single when it came out.


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## Mike Greene (Oct 28, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> I didn't accuse him, Mike. I just wanted the others to notice that it was his very first post here.


Whether your post was an actual "accusation" or not, I suppose you could debate. But it sure got interpreted as one, with a couple dozen posts as a result.

All I'm saying is that sometimes an ounce of biting your lip is worth a pound of debate. Did Andrew argue with you the countless times you butted yourself into his threads complaining about tuning? Nope. He was, in my and many other people's opinions, clearly wronged, and you were, in my and many other people's opinions, clearly out of line. But he bit his tongue, and as a result, his threads could move on in more productive directions.


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 28, 2015)

Mike, that is simply NOT what happened. I NEVER said the LASS tuning bothered me. In fact, I said that it DIDN'T bother me but that some of my friends who I recommended LASS to, notably Bruce Miller, complained vociferously about it.

And of course, that was before I worked for EW.


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## procreative (Oct 28, 2015)

All this back and forth shit slinging still does not take away the simple fact. East West do not give a flying fuck about customer loyalty. Maybe the reason they keep lowering their prices is due to dwindling sales?

Their flagship products are generally well made, however they can be very tardy addressing bugs and very prickly about playback issues (until Play 3 it was always down to your machine specs).

This very subject on the Harp got locked on their forum, guess they don't like admitting they dropped the ball, again.

For the record I own many if not most of their products, however I doubt I will buy any more. I don't like their philosophy and less the employees they let answer any grievances. Jay is a very helpful man when it comes to advice and support, but I feel his defence of EW sometimes leads to irrational mud slinging.

This is a free forum and so provided its expressed intelligently any opinion is valid.

I have expressed disappointment at other developers creating offers that favour latecomers and repeat that for EW. No entitlement, no demanding, no expectation it will change anything. But to my mind they should have based the Harp offer on total customer spend as surely that is the measure of a loyal customer?

Other developers take note, a little humility in dealing with grievances goes a long way. It takes a long time to build a brand but a very short while to wreck it, ask Gerald Ratner (for any non UK folk, he sold cheap jewellery very successfully until at a company event described his product as "cheap crap". Within a year Ratners were no more.

No the customer is not ALWAYS right, but coming across as arrogant in reply does not endear you.


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 28, 2015)

I honestly don't believe I am a mudslinger. If someone writes, e,g, "I much prefer String Library X to Hollywood Strings" I am not going to insult them. If they say, "I will only buy libraries that don't use iLok" I may state that I don't personally have a problem with iLok but I will not insult them. If they say, " I won't buy EW because they don't allow resale" I will not insult them. If they say, "The SOL forum is too tightly restricted" I will not insult them. If they say that Doug doesn't care about his customers, i will disagree but I will not insult them.

But if somebody makes what I believe to be a factually inaccurate statement I will correct them. And if they answer me in a snarky or disrespectful way, they may get some disrespect back. And if they make a nasty comment about Doug or EW or me, yes, I probably will get aggressive back.

i appreciate that some of you don't think that is how I should respond but that is who I am and I must be true to myself.


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## Mike Greene (Oct 28, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Mike, that is simply NOT what happened. I NEVER said the LASS tuning bothered me. In fact, I said that it DIDN'T bother me but that some of my friends who I recommended LASS to, notably Bruce Miller, complained vociferously about it.


Well, here's one example: Andrew posted a thread announcing a new brass library he was planning to release. A number of people posted that they were excited to hear about it. Then you posted:
_"I hope they pay more attention to tuning this time."_

Basically dropping a turd in the middle of his announcement thread. I've got more examples if you want.


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 28, 2015)

Really? That was not my memory of it. That was just wrong of me and I would not do that today. I think in recent years you would be hard pressed to find a negative comment about a competitive product to an EW product.


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## Truth be told (Oct 28, 2015)

"It all stinks to high heaven"

And yet continue to dig the hole deeper....
Maybe digging towards that vastly untapped China market...

The way things are going, perhaps I should put in a good word with the one "who just does not care" before the walls come tumbling down


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## D.Salzenberg (Oct 28, 2015)

I have to say that I've rarely taken the developers side when reading arguments on here, but after this thread I am really starting to totally understand why so many don't post on here any more, and certainly stay well clear of anything controversial. It's interesting to note that if I remember correctly in the recent massive thread about Albion where people got all worked up about Spitfires sales pricing, Spitfire themselves kept well away, even though they were under a fair amount of unfair flack over pricing.
Everyone us entitled to their opinion which is the whole point of a forum, but some of the ridiculous complaining over a free product, and pricing reductions being unfair to early customers are just off the map in my view.
In this case I can't see East West have done anything wrong.
Also it is selfish and ridiculous to expect the owner of a company to respond in person to every childish complaint or accusation by a customer on a public forum.
I think Spitfires approach of ignoring the moaning is probably the best course of action.
I understand why Jay finds it difficult to stay out of it, but some of the crap people moan about is way beneath deserving of a response.


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## stonzthro (Oct 28, 2015)

Heroix said:


> i think it would be better to have company officials only posting in advertisement forums or maybe some kind of support forum.
> 
> maybe iam the only one but i find it kinda annoying to have an official jump into every topic or advertising their stuff stuff in every opportunity.



For this very reason I am sometimes reticent to post actual reviews of purchased software - catch 22 - you can't return it but you will likely get flamed for suggesting any flaws. I'm not referring just to EW (though they are guilty too). Last week I was thinking "Gee, it sure would be helpful start a post that says 'List your Worst Purchase Decision'", but then realized the train-wreck that would become!

Ain't nobody got time for dat!

I suppose it is more indicative of the cottage nature of the industry, and the closeness to the actual developers. The double edged sword...


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## Carbs (Oct 28, 2015)

For the record, I could care less about this whole Harp fiasco. It's the attacks and accusations from paid representatives that is the bigger issue here.


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## kitekrazy (Oct 28, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> I didn't accuse him, Mike. I just wanted the others to notice that it was his very first post here. *There HAVE been cases of people coming on forums, company members, friends or fanboys, posting negative things about a competitor, and then soon disappearing. *As I said, if that turns out not to be the case with this individual as he proves to be a "real" member and contributor, I will publicly and sincerely apologize to him. In fact, I will be pleased if that is the case.
> 
> And I certainly had nothing to do with the false profiles, as I am sure you know. I think I had barely begun, if I had begun, my time with EW back in 2010.



Sometimes these are people who have a license and it's not working for them. They get frustrated to the point of not accepting support or it still doesn't work. They deem it as money lost and never miss an opportunity to offer negative input. I guess that's their way of recuperating costs. I was such a participant when Yellow Tools was around.


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## D.Salzenberg (Oct 28, 2015)

Carbs said:


> For the record, I could care less about this whole Harp fiasco. It's the attacks and accusations from paid representatives that is the bigger issue here.


What about the attacks and accusations from anonymous consumers?


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## Geoff Grace (Oct 28, 2015)

This site encourages more manufacturer participation than some of the other sites I've posted at. The downside is what people are complaining about here. The upside is that you get product giveaways and breaking news on sales and product announcements that are missing from other sites that limit manufacturer participation to simply answering questions.

For example, East West emailed me about their Composer Cloud, but I wouldn't have found out about their current sale if I hadn't come here.

There are two sides to every coin.

Best,

Geoff


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## Carbs (Oct 28, 2015)

D.Salzenberg said:


> What about the attacks and accusations from anonymous consumers?



What about them? How about you ignore them?

BTW..If you are inferring that I am making unjust accusations then you'd be wrong. Everything I've said is out there on the internet for anybody to find, if they wanted to.


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## kitekrazy (Oct 28, 2015)

stonzthro said:


> For this very reason I am sometimes reticent to post actual reviews of purchased software - catch 22 - you can't return it but you will likely get flamed for suggesting any flaws. I'm not referring just to EW (though they are guilty too). Last week I was thinking "Gee, it sure would be helpful start a post that says *'List your Worst Purchase Decision*'", but then realized the train-wreck that would become!
> 
> Ain't nobody got time for dat!
> 
> I suppose it is more indicative of the cottage nature of the industry, and the closeness to the actual developers. The double edged sword...



That was done before in the old forum. It wasn't nasty. Posts were detailed as to why.


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## D.Salzenberg (Oct 28, 2015)

Carbs said:


> What about them? How about you ignore them?


As I said earlier, that does seem to be probably the best course of action when some people are so full of quite bigoted 'entitlement' that you can't reason with them anyway. I was merely pointing out that there are two sides to attacks and accusations.
Some people's ideas that because they buy a product they are 'entitled' to undying loyalty from the manufacturer I just do not understand. It's garbage. Once I've bought my car from BMW do they owe me anything at all outside of the warranty agreement they've already costed in? Nope! After I bought my Strat do Fender owe me any loyalty and freebies? Nope!
The whole notion that early adopters who can afford to pay top wack for the privilege are owed anything is garbage.


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## Carbs (Oct 28, 2015)

D.Salzenberg said:


> As I said earlier, that does seem to be probably the best course of action when some people are so full of quite bigoted 'entitlement' that you can't reason with them anyway. I was merely pointing out that there are two sides to attacks and accusations.
> Some people's ideas that because they buy a product they are 'entitled' to undying loyalty from the manufacturer I just do not understand. It's garbage. Once I've bought my car from BMW do they owe me anything at all outside of the warranty agreement they've already costed in? Nope! After I bought my Strat do Fender owe me any loyalty and freebies? Nope!




I guess I don't understand why you are saying all this obvious stuff to me.


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## Truth be told (Oct 28, 2015)

"Once I've bought my car from BMW do they owe me anything"

No, but if they say their going to give you a free set of seat covers since you bought it, and then say we changed our mind you must buy 4 Beamer's, that's another thing entirely.


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## brett (Oct 28, 2015)

I dunno guys. I reckon it's a bit cheeky to complain about something that is being offered for free over and above and completely separate to the product you purchased. 

On the other hand I remember the first PLAY products advertised a networking solution that was coming in a soon to be released update a-la FX-Teleport. Now that *was* promised with the product - it was printed on the box in fact. Of course VEP beat EW to it but still... (Ok, now it's me who's being cheeky )


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## kitekrazy (Oct 28, 2015)

From what I understand if you have the HO Brass, Strings, WW, Perc, you get the harp. So what's the big deal?


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## Red (Oct 28, 2015)

Truth be told said:


> No, but if they say their going to give you a free set of seat covers since you bought it, and then say we changed our mind you must buy 4 Beamer's, that's another thing entirely



No. But that comparison is wrong in scale, conditions, and each of the product proponents.

I really don't get how Jay is being attacked for this.
Since when were people not suppose to bad mouth stuff?
Is this part of the PC culture thing?
It's not like no one knows Jay works for EW. So why can't he as a musician say that a product has bad tuning issues?
I say shit about 90% of sushi restaurants. Just because I love sushi and I "think" I know good sushi.
Sure on a small chance I might be wrong, but no one should censor themselves cause the chef might feel bad or lose business.
In that case, not saying something would be what's really unethical.


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## Red (Oct 28, 2015)

kitekrazy said:


> From what I understand if you have the HO Brass, Strings, WW, Perc, you get the harp. So what's the big deal?


I'm wondering the same thing myself.
"Greed and hypocrisy." _Leonard Bernstein


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## Carbs (Oct 28, 2015)




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## AlexandreSafi (Oct 28, 2015)

For those who are about the free Harp:
_Do not spoil what you have by desiring what you have not; remember that what you now have was once among the things only hoped for._
-Epicurus

For those who are about EW:
_You either want Peace most or Justice most.
-_The Pretentious Me, of course...


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## Red (Oct 28, 2015)

AlexandreSafi said:


> _You either want Peace most or Justice most.
> -_The Pretentious Me, of course...



Peace without justice is one sided and false.
_-_The Pretentious Me


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## DR BOOWHO (Oct 28, 2015)

Carbs said:


>


I couldn't agree more


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## atw (Oct 28, 2015)

Welcome to this forum, truth be told.

Sorry I thought the same, your first post looked a little fishy to me too. Of course i have no evidence.
Or is there an evidence somewhere?
*Forum rules point 03:* "...The IP address of all posts is recorded to aid in enforcing these conditions." *And
Forum rules point 10:* "Only one user account per member. Members may establish only one username/account.
Multiple accounts are not permitted and may result in losing your membership privileges."

Maybe it is easy to find out. I don't know.

Forum rules(Sep.12.2014): http://www.vi-control.net/community/threads/guideline-rules-for-vi-control-forum-updated.3/

So again welcome.


----------



## SpeakPianissimoAndCarry.. (Oct 28, 2015)

In spite of the fact that I have deleted most of their libraries from my computer and only use the few left now, overall:


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## AlexandreSafi (Oct 28, 2015)

Red said:


> Peace without justice is one sided and false.
> _-_The Pretentious Me


Depending on which you value the most, your deeds will vary, but you're right... and i'll go further and say that ultimately you can make the case that neither exclude the other, but your point of focus on either is.. well remarkable in your own code of conduct!


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## NYC Composer (Oct 28, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> No, he rarely asks my opinion. He has people at EW who have worked with and for him for many, many years.
> 
> And anyone who has been here a while will tell you that I am very plain spoken whether it is EW related or not, and that when I tell you I believe something, I believe it.
> 
> Some people do not like that about me, but since I have more "likes" than any other member, I have to assume that some at least accept it.


Oh, good lord.

Now I have to go look at my likes. Wait...on the other hand, I'd rather have a sharp stick in the eye.

Jay, did you really go there? Really?? Man. You make things really difficult sometimes. I tried to help defuse this crap with some hard but practical truth-but when you stoke the fire with your flaming sword of righteousness, you are not helping EW, this forum or yourself.

LIKES?? Aw, c'mon, man!!


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## quantum7 (Oct 28, 2015)

This thread has reminded me why EW had left such a bitter taste in my mouth for so long.  I recently came back to EW, utilizing their new Composer Cloud, but I'm glad that I am re-reminded about the black cloud that seems to follow them year after year after year. I will not be renewing my subscription when it expires in a week. I just cannot in good conscious reward EW with my hard-earned money again...even though PLAY finally is working for me now. It's not due to any one person at EW, but the entire company and it's business practices as a whole........so please don't pounce on me Jay.....love & peace.   (Jay, if your ever in beautiful Boise, Idaho I'll still buy you a beer....or wine if remember that you prefer) It's also that I was going to post on the EW forum today to ask a question, but then remembered all the times in the past when I would either have my posts deleted, or be ripped upon by EW employees for any criticism I would post when I would mention that things were not working the way they were advertised. Too many bad memories now coming back!  I'll still keep using Spaces though, love it!


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## SpeakPianissimoAndCarry.. (Oct 28, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> Oh, good lord.
> 
> Now I have to go look at my likes. Wait...on the other hand, I'd rather have a sharp stick in the eye.
> 
> ...



OK


----------



## Truth be told (Oct 28, 2015)

atw said:


> Welcome to this forum, truth be told.
> 
> Sorry I thought the same, your first post looked a little fishy to me too. Of course i have no evidence.
> Or is there an evidence somewhere?
> ...



Thanks for the welcome.
Feel free to search away


----------



## prodigalson (Oct 28, 2015)

Don't worry Truth be Told,

Back in 2013, when I first joined VI Control, my first post was asking an innocent question about people's experiences with CineStrings which had just been released and I was immediately accused of being a shill for Orchestral Tools simply because I had mentioned that I was waiting to see what Berlin Strings was going to be like...

Since then I've been an active participant and have been shown to have no particular allegiance to any developer. People here can be very suspicious. Take it as a compliment, It's how we say hello! 

Welcome.


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## atw (Oct 29, 2015)

prodigalson said:


> Don't worry Truth be Told,
> 
> Back in 2013, when I first joined VI Control, my first post was asking an innocent question about people's experiences with CineStrings which had just been released and I was immediately accused of being a shill for Orchestral Tools simply because I had mentioned that I was waiting to see what Berlin Strings was going to be like...
> 
> ...



It's how we say hello! What ?

Often times we say, you are welcome/greetings to the new member. But when someone says "hmmmm, it could be a little fishy..." 1-2 times in a year or so. Then suddenly you ignore those often times and choose the 1-2 times ?

No it's not how we say hello!

That's a joke isn't it?

I myself said welcome to new members several times this month. 2 times were 2 days ago.

http://vi-control.net/community/threads/hello-im-in-nashville.49271/#post-3905808

http://vi-control.net/community/threads/hello-from-germany.49240/#post-3905807

http://vi-control.net/community/threads/greetings-from-germany.48829/#post-3899916

http://vi-control.net/community/threads/hello-from-liège-belgium.48838/#post-3899915

http://vi-control.net/community/threads/hello-from-washington-d-c.48912/#post-3899914



What are you talking...?


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## DR BOOWHO (Oct 29, 2015)

prodigalson said:


> Don't worry Truth be Told,
> 
> Back in 2013, when I first joined VI Control, my first post was asking an innocent question about people's experiences with CineStrings which had just been released and I was immediately accused of being a shill for Orchestral Tools simply because I had mentioned that I was waiting to see what Berlin Strings was going to be like...
> 
> ...


Come to think of it one of my posts was in favour of anther developer......DRBOOWHO...OO.D..O.....Oh no !! Quick Troels send the Chopper.. My identity has been comprimised!!


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## ysnyvz (Oct 29, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Some people do not like that about me, but since I have more "likes" than any other member, I have to assume that some at least accept it.


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## Baron Greuner (Oct 29, 2015)

SpeakPianissimoAndCarry.. said:


> OK




Yeah but….Yon Cassius has a lean and hungry look!!!

And he just_doesn't_care.


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## Red (Oct 29, 2015)

I thought this was music. We're all narcissists having a huge ego trip.


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## Simon Ravn (Oct 29, 2015)

Wow, Jay is really drowning here. The whole EW organization is just so ridiculous. I actually think they know themselves, but it's very hard to get out of at this point. So much evidence of terrible business (and personal) practice. The internet doesn't forget. Hands down the worst company I have ever witnessed regarding customer handling. I can't say customer CARE because they don't care.


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## ysnyvz (Oct 29, 2015)

Red said:


> I thought this was music. We're all narcissists having a huge ego trip.


I don't think having a huge ego is about profession. It some people's character no matter what they do.
Hans Zimmer is a member here. You can see he is a humble guy through his posts. I wouldn't like it if he comes here saying "Shut up you peasants! I'm the king of film music."


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## Anders Wall (Oct 29, 2015)

ysnyvz said:


> I don't think having a huge ego is about profession. It some people's character no matter what they do.
> Hans Zimmer is a member here. You can see he is a humble guy through his posts. I wouldn't like it if he comes here saying "Shut up you peasants! I'm the king of film music."


And I wouldn't mind :-O

But in all fairness, there are some, not a lot but some, women on the forum.
I don't see them "ego-ing" around threads like this…
And I know that I say this without knowing who's really behind the AtoZ's in our forum names.
But still… 

Best,
Anders


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## D.Salzenberg (Oct 29, 2015)

Back on topic.
Here's how I see it. Doug announced a freebie, then changed his mind about what qualifies for the freebie. OK, so clearly he messed up and made a mistake. Has this cost anyone because they spent their money based on the offer of a freebie sweetener? Not as far as I know, maybe others know different.
So he changed his mind, quickly corrected it, and that's that. Not great, but calling it bad business ethics is way over the top.
As for people who paid top dollar for products before the big discounts not qualifying, well, you didn't buy those products based on the promise of future freebies, or based on the idea that the same products wouldn't be on sale at a massive discount at some time in the future.
You bought them because to you they were worth that money at that time. That's were it ends.
Businesses quite rightly incentivise active customers, or potential customers with deals not legacy customers. That's how it works.
Regarding Jay posting on here, people are only too happy for him to reply to people's technical issues etc on here, but then others moan when he jumps in to defend East West from what he sees as unfair criticism.
OK sometimes maybe he doesn't do himself any favours but some of the stuff posted by anonymous consumers in the way of criticism and goading is off the map.
Do we want a forum where no Devs want to get involved or post in debates, but everyone is free to slag them off and make accusations with no comeback?


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## ysnyvz (Oct 29, 2015)

D.Salzenberg said:


> Regarding Jay posting on here, people are only too happy for him to reply to people's technical issues etc on here, but then others moan when he jumps in to defend East West from what he sees as unfair criticism.


I don't remember anyone moaning because he is doing his job. But I've seen lots of threads here, people were complaining or getting angry because of how he does his job.
Personally I have nothing against EW as a company. In fact I like sound of their libraries and also TSFH music. Their discounts are tempting. I prefer Kontakt but I would buy most of their libraries. Probably they don't care but threads like this one are turning me off which there are lots of them.


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## lpuser (Oct 29, 2015)

D.Salzenberg said:


> well, you didn't buy those products based on the promise of future freebies,



If that would be the case, nobody would ever add any freebies. We certainly all know that such announcements help in attracting people. Just like buy-one-get-two and so forth. Some purchases I make are simply not necessary for my business but are impulse purchases, because I think I could use that somewhen. And seeing something offered as an incentive is for sure not making anybody withhold the purchase but adds just that little stinger to trigger the impulse.

It was already pointed out how "quickly" this announcement was corrected, but like many other readers I was not aware of any revised version, because there is much more in life than hanging around in forums and checking if statements are still valid. I saw the original, got excited, end of story. No need for me to check hourly or daily if that message is still there.

Maybe Spitfires new Harp Swarp is the answer for those who are mising HOP and want a decent harp instrument


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## prodigalson (Oct 29, 2015)

atw said:


> It's how we say hello! What ?
> 
> Often times we say, you are welcome/greetings to the new member. But when someone says "hmmmm, it could be a little fishy..." 1-2 times in a year or so. Then suddenly you ignore those often times and choose the 1-2 times ?
> 
> ...



It was a lighthearted joke atw...relax.


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## DR BOOWHO (Oct 29, 2015)

D.Salzenberg said:


> Back on topic.
> Here's how I see it. Doug announced a freebie, then changed his mind about what qualifies for the freebie. OK, so clearly he messed up and made a mistake. Has this cost anyone because they spent their money based on the offer of a freebie sweetener? Not as far as I know, maybe others know different.
> So he changed his mind, quickly corrected it, and that's that. Not great, but calling it bad business ethics is way over the top.
> As for people who paid top dollar for products before the big discounts not qualifying, well, you didn't buy those products based on the promise of future freebies, or based on the idea that the same products wouldn't be on sale at a massive discount at some time in the future.
> ...


No we would expect developers to listen to their customers,hold their hands up when they make a mistake,maybe make a public apology so as to diffuse the situation.
Perhaps then this would have ended this thread and life would continue.Instead the EastWest representative chimes in with nothing positive to say and goes on to accuse new members of trolling.
Somehow I don't think the other major developers would handle this the same way


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 29, 2015)

Simon Ravn said:


> Wow, Jay is really drowning here.



Nah, I am fine, I have been down this road many times before and I am a big boy. Thanks for your concern though, Simon.


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## Truth be told (Oct 29, 2015)

The only ones saying it was changed right away is EW. Since they control their forum they could have changed it at anytime. Right up to the recent fiasco. Maybe they thought no one would remember, or they could intimidate and/or censor out decent. Which seams to be standard operating procedure over there. Why did he who "does not care" not make a dedicated post at the time? One that would have been noticed, and discussed at the time. Sure did not hurt sales by letting it float in the wind. Given their reputation, and now that I've read that employees of theirs have even posted here without revealing said relationships, I find it hard to believe anything coming out of there leadership/reps. Were those deceiving EW employees/posters even fired? That would say something. Good thing the company is not publicly held, as its market cap would have taken a turn for the worst, and he who "answers to no one" would not only be answering to the court of public opinion. But also to his share holders.


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## OleJoergensen (Oct 29, 2015)

I've been using East West Libraries for around 10 years but only intense the last year. I bought around 30 license doing the years at good offers around 30-70 %. I only had few problems and I fell, untill now, I recieved very good help from East West staff and also the forums members at East West forum. Im not paid to say this. Im just a simple music teacher who enjoys composing in my sparetime.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 29, 2015)

Truth be told said:


> The only ones saying it was changed right away is EW. Since they control their forum they could have changed it at anytime. Right up to the recent fiasco. Maybe they thought no one would remember, or they could intimidate and/or censor out decent. Which seams to be standard operating procedure over there. Why did he who "does not care" not make a dedicated post at the time? One that would have been noticed, and discussed at the time. Sure did not hurt sales by letting it float in the wind. Given their reputation, and now that I've read that employees of theirs have even posted here without revealing said relationships, I find it hard to believe anything coming out of there leadership/reps. Were those deceiving EW employees/posters even fired? That would say something. Good thing the company is not publicly held, as its market cap would have taken a turn for the worst, and he who "answers to no one" would not only be answering to the court of public opinion. But also to his share holders.


Actually, as a small time investor, I totally disagree.

Do you think no one is buying BP gasoline after the recent oil spill and subsequent fouling of the Gulf? Of course they are. Do you think people will buy Volkswagens again in a year or two? Sure they will.

In the marketplace, people without unlimited funds buy the things they want at a price point they find reasonable or cheap. Kerfuffles, bad business practices, S.OB. CEOs notwithstanding, the marketplace generally returns to its level eventually. Good will definitely has its market worth, but on a macro level, it's lower than most people think.

In my opinion, from the most practical standpoint, the #1 thing EW could have done to improve profits over the past 10 years would have been to invest the few hundred thousand to make Play a killer sample player. As a matter of fact, most people I know would have paid for it. At their price points, they could have eaten the entire market with a super efficient player. That part is a mystery to me.


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## Truth be told (Oct 29, 2015)

I'd say BP and Volkswagen were hit big time financially, and since Volkswagen's woes involved deceit it will reverberate negatively for years. Just like BP, they faced, and will face, huge lawsuits.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 29, 2015)

yes, but check BP's stock after the initial crisis and where it went a year later. Plenty of people will buy into VW now as well, and will make a profit- and these things are a lot more heinous than a harp.

My point- people will keep buying EW 's stuff if it's practical for them, and the goodwill quotient is lower than one might think.


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## reddognoyz (Oct 29, 2015)

this thread has ceased being helpful to me : )


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## Lassi Tani (Oct 29, 2015)

reddognoyz said:


> this thread has ceased being helpful to me : )



But it's good drama, isn't it. I'll get some popcorns


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## NYC Composer (Oct 29, 2015)

Did you find the other nine pages helpful?


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## reddognoyz (Oct 29, 2015)

If I am here I am procrastinating, so.... yes... and no..... but I await the harp and solo strings with baited breath. I am wondering if they are going to try and do kind of fancy scripting with the strings, and if there is going to be any tunable pedal options for the harp. i like to roll my own harp glisses.


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## snowleopard (Oct 29, 2015)

About as "helpful" as watching the 6th sequel in the Police Academy series.


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## Carbs (Oct 29, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> Did you find the other nine pages helpful?



Lol.

Yah, from the OP on it was clear...this thread was going to be a...well...what it ended up being.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 29, 2015)

Re harp, back in the old days they were two small ladies named Gloria and Margaret who seemingly played on every session in New York.They were both smaller than their harps and equally fabulous. I would write a chord chart and "gliss" where I wanted glisses  They took it from there.

I've gotten by with the EWQLSO harp til now. I do kinda like the sound of the Project Sam.


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 29, 2015)

reddognoyz said:


> this thread has ceased being helpful to me : )



You mean it actually WAS helpful at some point?


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## dcoscina (Oct 29, 2015)

The only certainty in life is death and taxes....and people bashing EW on this site.


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## Carbs (Oct 29, 2015)

dcoscina said:


> The only certainty in life is death and taxes....and people bashing EW on this site.



...as well as fan boys taking it up the backside with two thumbs up and a pearly smile on their faces.


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## dcoscina (Oct 29, 2015)

Carbs said:


> ...as well as fan boys taking it up the backside with two thumbs up and a pearly smile on their faces.


That's rude. If you don't like their business practices or product don't buy their stuff. 

I feel sorry for you guys if this is the worst thing that's happened to you in life. At some point you will experience some really serious shit and then you will think of these types of things as trivial by comparison.


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## reddognoyz (Oct 29, 2015)

yea bad karma..


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## dcoscina (Oct 29, 2015)

Well thanks for clearing that up. I never asked you to qualify anything but just offered another perspective on this stuff. I don't see my posts being aggressive at all. I don't work for EW nor any other company. I've spent my hard earned cash like everyone else here on these products. I spent some time away from using EW and concerted on Spitfire products and Project Sam stuff instead. Then EW came out with their Hollywood series and I started with the Silver series and eventually upgraded to Gold because their sales were amazing. So yeah I qualify for the free harp. 

Sorry you disagree with their corporate philosophy.


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## dcoscina (Oct 29, 2015)

Carbs said:


> People like you always blow things out of proportion more than the people who are "bashing" IMO. You think you know me by a few posts here? Think my life is all sunshine and flowers? I've been through a lot in my life...tragedies. In fact my baby cousin who was only 17 years old was killed by a drunk driver last year, the guy who ran into her was fleeing the scene of a crime where he had just shot somebody in the neck at a bar...they couldn't prove it wasn't self defense on his part so he was...just two days ago... sentenced only to 7 years in prison...yeah pretty pissed about that one. She had her license for a week.
> 
> I've had my jaw broken and wired shut while stepping in to protect those who could not protect themselves. My dad shot himself 3 years ago this Christmas (he survived). Do you want me to keep going on?
> 
> ...


By the way, I'm sincerely sorry you have experienced these tragedies.


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## germancomponist (Oct 29, 2015)

For what reason is this thread going on?


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## Carbs (Oct 29, 2015)

dcoscina said:


> Well thanks for clearing that up. I never asked you to qualify anything but just offered another perspective on this stuff. I don't see my posts being aggressive at all. I don't work for EW nor any other company. I've spent my hard earned cash like everyone else here on these products. I spent some time away from using EW and concerted on Spitfire products and Project Sam stuff instead. Then EW came out with their Hollywood series and I started with the Silver series and eventually upgraded to Gold because their sales were amazing. So yeah I qualify for the free harp.
> 
> *Sorry you disagree with their corporate philosophy*.



In what way am I doing that? Unless you mean that their philosophy is to make baseless accusations against people. Hell not even Daniel James, a guy I admire very much, could escape the wrath of EW fanboys. 

I'll say it again. I don't care if YOU or ANYBODY gets this harp for free for any reason. I don't give two shits about this harp.

The "perspective" was anything but.


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## Carbs (Oct 29, 2015)

germancomponist said:


> For what reason is this thread going on?



Because it's not locked and people keep replying to it? That's how most threads work.


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## Carbs (Oct 29, 2015)

dcoscina said:


> By the way, I'm sincerely sorry you have experienced these tragedies.




Thank you (honestly), but I am in no way someone who revels in pity and needs that sort of attention. My main point is that what happens in our lives, and what we talk about here concerning virtual instruments do not need to in any way be related.


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## germancomponist (Oct 29, 2015)

Carbs said:


> Because it's not locked and people keep replying to it? That's how most threads work.


I thought this thread topic was fully discussed.


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## Carbs (Oct 29, 2015)

germancomponist said:


> I thought this thread topic was fully discussed.



Threads are never finished, simply...abandoned.  (or locked by mods, lol)


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## DR BOOWHO (Oct 29, 2015)

dcoscina said:


> That's rude. If you don't like their business practices or product don't buy their stuff.
> 
> I feel sorry for you guys if this is the worst thing that's happened to you in life. At some point you will experience some really serious shit and then you will think of these types of things as trivial by comparison.


AT what point do you think that this comment would be productive to help resolve this?


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## ptsmith (Oct 29, 2015)

I don't know why people complain about threads like this. On all the forums I've frequented, threads like this get the most posts and views, meaning they're the most popular. What's to not like?


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 29, 2015)

People like them for the same reasons they like TV shows like Jerry Springer and why they slow down and gawk at bad traffic accidents. It is an unattractive and regrettable aspect of human behavior. And while I am certainly guilty of participating in these kind of threads, I assure you, I take no pleasure in it.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 29, 2015)

I think people should always try to be civil (although if they're clever, I forgive rudeness  I also think passionate, unfettered debate is healthy. If everyone agrees, why ever discuss anything? Some people wil always be hyperbolic. No one is ever forced to respond to them.

At the end of the day though, this topic was never going to change anyone's mind- especially the mind of the only person that would have the ability to address it. For the amusement of The Baron known as Greuner, let me restate this categorically:

"Doug...does...not...care."

As Jimmy/Chim would say- "Ankyu."


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## mc_deli (Oct 30, 2015)

Imho there is a need for moderators to act quickly in threads like this


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## Geoff Grace (Oct 30, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> At the end of the day though, this topic was never going to change anyone's mind- especially the mind of the only person that would have the ability to address it. For the amusement of The Baron known as Greuner, let me restate this categorically:
> 
> "Doug...does...not...care."
> 
> As Jimmy/Chim would say- "Ankyu."


Aw, now see? From a creative, collaborative, composition standpoint, this would have been the perfect way to end this thread! I was really hoping other composers here would see that too.

You've got the return of the "Doug does not care" hook, coupled with the repeat of the futility of trying to change other people's minds theme that several of us stated, and all of it introduced by the "end of the day" metaphor for the thread winding down.

If I were producing this thread, that's the chord I would let ring out. In fact, I think I'm going to pretend it ended there... 

Best,

Geoff


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## Baron Greuner (Oct 30, 2015)

I went through a tragedy once.

King Lear. It went on all afternoon.

Never again.


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## FriFlo (Oct 30, 2015)

Where the hell is that smiley eating popcorn? This is like episode VII of a well known space opera to me!
My favorite character: Jay Asher stating in the beginning there is not more to say about it than what he just wrote and then posting hourly for the rest of the thread. 
Seriously, I wouldn't care that much for the harp, I would rather be quite turned of by the fact of having bought the individual volumes of the Hollywood series for probably 5 times the amount they are offered now ... Luckily, I have learned my lessons in the past and now I just enjoy the movie.


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## markwind (Oct 30, 2015)

This discussion is just ridiculous beyond words. You all go all over the place. Dont hijack topics. Have some respect to the original intent of a topic. Don't let it be your vehicle to spew any and all dissatisfaction you have about EW, it's employees or any other company for that matter. It´s just childish and all it does is that it shows a lack of restraint - good job.

This topic is about something that was promised, and a promise that was changed into something else.

ONTOPIC:
Jay, I hear you what you say and I can emphathise to too-rash-promises that weren't fully thought out. But it would have been the right thing to was to create a topic to explain what happened, instead of correcting a post by editing it sortof sneakily (because i'm pretty sure that it wasnt edited straight after, unless I'm really mistaken, i'm pretty sure I've checked that post for weeks after the initial promise, as various posts linked to the original post).

If you make a promise, and its just something you can't deliver on, then you own it and don't backtrack your words by (just) editing a post and waiting for people to call you out on it. That's just not how you do proper business in my opinion. For a few days it actually did leave a bad taste in my mouth in regards to EW. But I got over it, moved on. You´ve always offered terrific service, so a promise gone wrong is nothing more then a dent in whats otherwise a very positive experience in my book.


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## Carbs (Oct 30, 2015)

markwind said:


> This discussion is just ridiculous beyond words. You all go all over the place. Dont hijack topics. Have some respect to the original intent of a topic. Don't let it be your vehicle to spew any and all dissatisfaction you have about EW, it's employees or any other company for that matter. It´s just childish and all it does is that it shows a lack of restraint - good job.
> 
> This topic is about something that was promised, and a promise that was changed into something else.
> 
> ...



If you are referring to me - I only stepped in when attempts were made to slander a new member. If that's childish then I don't care.  If solely bitching about EW was on my priority list I would have made a thread years ago. Lol.


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## markwind (Oct 30, 2015)

I didn't bother to see who was posting, and I don't really care neither who it was. I was just reading posts, so "To Whom It May Regard" I guess.


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## Carbs (Oct 30, 2015)

markwind said:


> I didn't bother to see who was posting, and I don't really care neither who it was. I was just reading posts, so "To Whom It May Regard" I guess.



K then.


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## Zhao Shen (Oct 30, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> So if it was your company and a guy came on who has never been here before and makes his first post and it is a strongly worded knock on your company, you wouldn't be suspicious in the least and say something?
> 
> I tell you what, I will make a deal with you: if this person becomes a regular member of our forum, praises some companies, knocks some others besides EW, then I will publicly apologize to him.


There are many, many people on this forum who regularly follow ideas but just don't post/have accounts yet. Also, this is an ad hominem argument - does him being a new forum member make his opinion matter less than ours?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 30, 2015)

mc_deli said:


> Imho there is a need for moderators to act quickly in threads like this



But this is so riveting. Eleven pages of extremely important intellectual discussion.


----------



## Carbs (Oct 30, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> But this is so riveting. Eleven pages of extremely important intellectual discussion.



Lol! I must have missed that part.


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## Carbs (Oct 30, 2015)

jononotbono said:


> Sarcasm is a gift. So is a Harp if you buy the EW Hollywood Orchestra! Haha!



I've also heard it described as the "lowest form of wit" - credit to...some random internet person who said something on the internet at least once.


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## jononotbono (Oct 30, 2015)

Carbs said:


> I've also heard it described as the "lowest form of wit" - credit to...some random internet person who said something on the internet at least once.


Haha Just having a laugh. It's worrying when someone doesnt even detect Sarcasm though. I know many. 

Anyway, when does the East West Harp get released?


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## tomaslobosk (Oct 30, 2015)

Zhao Shen said:


> There are many, many people on this forum who regularly follow ideas but just don't post/have accounts yet. Also, this is an ad hominem attack - does him being a new forum member make his opinion matter less than ours?


+1, I must support this.


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## atw (Oct 30, 2015)

The story in short: Well let me take big breath..... 

I guess I know the reason why the free harp comes into play. (LOL, that was unintented).

In December 2014.
There was a little and innocent thread....Quickly it became very big and at a certain point very hot.

Somehow people posted their opinion/expierence about Play and EW's products and support/forum...
Many of the posts in the begining showed those mentioned things in a bad light. (Which can be true or not. I don't know).
Then other people chimed in and showed those mentioned things in a good light. (Which can be true or not. I don't know).

From that point on it went back and forth. And others brought their pop corn. And the member germancomponist brought his +1 again 

Then even moderators chimed in and it got more intense. And more pop corn was needed.

Then EastWest Lurker said that he was banned some times ago for some reasons.
Right after that post, someone from Spitfire chimed in and said something like "It wasn't us". And chimed out. (Reminds me of Bart Simpson) 

It was getting more hot when Daniel James took part. Then more members and moderators joined...
One moderator requested Daniel to cool down... Daniel saw no reason for that, so he replied... Also others.

And finally Nick Pheonix appeared in that thread with a big bold post. Somehow he tried to write a sentence vertically.  Didn't saw that before.
Then Nick and Daniel tried to get the best friends....until they all group huged. (That was on dec.15.2014)
What a wonderful ending. This was so beautiful, i can't stop my tears.

That thread grew more and more.
Then one or two days later, i guess that thread was still going on, EW announced a free harp to anyone who has one volume of the HW series. I guess Doug was biting the next thing which was close to him at that time.

Many people have seen this post! Customers and potential customers of EW! And of course others.
And everything calmed down in that thread. Slowly but surely.


==> Now, the broken promise. NO, changed or half broken (lol, you know what i mean) is a better word, because it's still free.

Since then several threads with angry people appeared. Like looking for Frankenstein's Monster.

In my opinion, it would be better when they made an announcement right after they changed it. Or even better not made the free harp announcement at all.
But they say it was impulsive. *I can understand it*, that thread was hot. *Man, Nick tried to write vertically* 

They still have good prices and their products are one of the best.

And $100 for the harp? If the harp sounds like most of their instruments then i am sure you will be happy. 

EastWest Lurker is like a punching ball for a mass sometimes.
Please, regarding the free harp, I guess everything is said.

Thank you


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## Carbs (Oct 30, 2015)

atw said:


> EastWest Lurker is like a punching ball for a mass sometimes.



What the hell church do YOU go to???

I kid, I kid.

*Edit

atw asked for a little clarity on what I meant by my statement. In some religions it's common to say "going to mass" instead of "going to church." I was just making a harmless (and dumb) joke. Sorry for any confusion that may have caused, atw!


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## markwind (Oct 30, 2015)

Zhao Shen said:


> There are many, many people on this forum who regularly follow ideas but just don't post/have accounts yet. Also, this is an ad hominem argument - does him being a new forum member make his opinion matter less than ours?



It's not about to what extend his opinion matters. It's that he seemingly registers first and foremost to feed the debate, offering no new angle on the position against EW but rehashing really what´s been said before (Fuel-Fire). When you do that as a new member, and give off no interest of actually being part of a community other then to take a shot at EW/Jay that is clearly not intended in any constructive light, then absolutely do I question your motives (And If you're a company, or repping a company, then I can completely understand Questioning (Not concluding!) the situation). That to me is not being a member, that to me is registering to take a shot at someone (A person and or organisation).

Now the idea of professionalism vs personal.. I gotta be honest here everyone. I'd rather have a person who doesn't take bullshit, because I know that when he says something, he is for real (Ie that I know he is truly representing something he believes in). It's maybe not the customer-is-always-right mentality that so many here seem to rally around, but it's not inherently bad neither. It just means that Jay doesn't tolerate bullshit. And props to him for standing up.

A customer-is-always-right mentality is a suck-up mentality that pretty much instantly drains my trust in the sincerity of someones word.

To draw this back to our situation with the Harp - that means that I trust Jay to the point where I feel he has a good reason to take the stance he does (and not just a sense of loyalty to a company - because that would be the oppositve of trusting someone´s integrity) and so I genuinely respect his position even if in case I might disagree. Mine is NOT more valid then his.

Bring some love back to this people. EW made a booboo (in my opinion), are we gonna forever cry about it or are we gonna act like adults, shake hands and move on to something more worth our while?


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## Astronaut FX (Oct 30, 2015)

To be fair, I didn't see much of the "customer is always right" mentality in this thread. As a matter of fact, I specifically stated I didn't adhere to it. Maybe we read different threads.


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## atw (Oct 30, 2015)

Thank you, Carbs.


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## Carbs (Oct 30, 2015)

No problem


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## markwind (Oct 30, 2015)

I don't think we have.


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## Carbs (Oct 30, 2015)

So the lesson here is that: "Some of us are allowed to not tolerate bullshit, while others have to suffocate in it."


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## markwind (Oct 30, 2015)

Well, first off, if a company makes you suffocate, maybe overthink your life choices.

Second, calling a company out on bullshit, is fine. Sticking to that one point, is fine too - And at some point we get to a conclusion: EW is not gonna do something about it, or they are, but either way, we, being the fine and collected adults that we are, should move on once we reached that conclusion. You could, being the collected adult you are, even take it further, and you feel really-really offended. Make a unified voice by organising everyone's dissatisfaction in an actionable way (ie. petitioning).

But instead of all that, instead of people trying to either accept what happened, or genuinely working towards some sort of goal, we get this thread.

And this thread has gone all over the place. It´s crapshooting with frustration all around. The points in this thread are unfocussed, messy and quite frankly become the equivalent of teenagers trying to vent their frustration with finger pointing for the sake of finger pointing. I mean pitchforks aren´t uncalled for.


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 30, 2015)

Thank you Mark for having faith in my integrity as a human being, even when you may disagree with my judgement.


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## Carbs (Oct 30, 2015)

markwind said:


> Well, first off, if a company makes you suffocate, maybe overthink your life choices.
> 
> Second, calling a company out on bullshit, is fine. Sticking to that one point, is fine too - And at some point we get to a conclusion: EW is not gonna do something about it, or they are, but either way, we, being the fine and collected adults that we are, should move on once we reached that conclusion. You could, being the collected adult you are, even take it further, and you feel really-really offended. Make a unified voice by organising everyone's dissatisfaction in an actionable way (ie. petitioning).
> 
> ...



You are my favorite kind of person. The kind that tells everyone how they should think. Accusing them of being children or teenagers just because you disagree with them.


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## ysnyvz (Oct 30, 2015)

Whenever there is a discussion about EW (not only this forum), EW users/fans jump into that thread using similar words: "Stop bashing, guys", "Don't buy it, if you don't like it", "I don't care what you think, it's working for me", "Customer is not always right", "There are more important things in life, you know" etc.
Just an observation.


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## D.Salzenberg (Oct 30, 2015)

markwind said:


> It's not about to what extend his opinion matters. It's that he seemingly registers first and foremost to feed the debate, offering no new angle on the position against EW but rehashing really what´s been said before (Fuel-Fire). When you do that as a new member, and give off no interest of actually being part of a community other then to take a shot at EW/Jay that is clearly not intended in any constructive light, then absolutely do I question your motives (And If you're a company, or repping a company, then I can completely understand Questioning (Not concluding!) the situation). That to me is not being a member, that to me is registering to take a shot at someone (A person and or organisation).
> 
> Now the idea of professionalism vs personal.. I gotta be honest here everyone. I'd rather have a person who doesn't take bullshit, because I know that when he says something, he is for real (Ie that I know he is truly representing something he believes in). It's maybe not the customer-is-always-right mentality that so many here seem to rally around, but it's not inherently bad neither. It just means that Jay doesn't tolerate bullshit. And props to him for standing up.
> 
> ...


Totally agree with this.
I've deleted the rest of this post as it looked like causing trouble. Sorry guys was in a very mischievous mood!!!


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## Carbs (Oct 30, 2015)

ysnyvz said:


> Whenever there is a discussion about EW (not only this forum), EW users/fans jump into that thread using similar words: "Stop bashing, guys", "Don't buy it, if you don't like it", "I don't care what you think, it's working for me", "Customer is not always right", "There are more important things in life, you know" etc.
> Just an observation.




Case in point: the guy who posted after you.


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## Rasmus Hartvig (Oct 30, 2015)

D.Salzenberg said:


> So just to stoke the flames a bit more, it would be very interesting to see if any if those who are bashing East West on this thread are being enthusiastic on another thread about a competitors Harp product?
> I'll leave that thought for conspiracy lovers!



So this is all a ploy to drive customers to another harp product (of which there are few - that are old)?
Wow.
Maybe check your own tin-foil hat.


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## D.Salzenberg (Oct 30, 2015)

Rasmus Hartvig said:


> So this is all a ploy to drive customers to another harp product (of which there are few - that are old)?
> Wow.
> Maybe check your own tin-foil hat.


Just playing devil's advocate!


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## markwind (Oct 30, 2015)

Carbs said:


> You are my favorite kind of person. The kind that tells everyone how they should think. Accusing them of being children or teenagers just because you disagree with them.


LOL
Sorry that genuinely made me laugh. Did you just ironically exemplify my point by overlooking the fact that I was talking about people's behavior, and actually not about their opinions? Because you know, teenagers have that same issue oftentimes. Not calling you a teenager, just sayin'.. you sortof proved my point there if you felt adressed in my post.


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## TheUnfinished (Oct 30, 2015)

D.Salzenberg said:


> Totally agree with this. Joining a forum just to join in on bashing a company sets off warning bells to me.
> So just to stoke the flames a bit more, it would be very interesting to see if any if those who are bashing East West on this thread are being enthusiastic on another thread about a competitors Harp product?
> I'll leave that thought for conspiracy lovers!


Or, rather than chucking mud around, you could actually check your pet theory and have some decisive evidence either way?

What do we want to do? Draw up a list of appropriate threads people can make their first posts in? Given the range of threads on VI and the number of people joining, it's inevitable that at some point someone's first post will be in a thread like this, and if their experience is negative, then, so be it.

I find it far more insidious that people feel okay to jump down someone's throat, with only their own paranoid fantasies to cling to, and have that be their first experience of VI Control, just because you don't like their view on a thread.

If you disagree with someone's point of view, then do that as vehemently as you want. But leave the snide, back-handed, ad hominem attacks to our beloved politicians*.

*And that last point is not just directed at you Mr Salzenburg.


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## Carbs (Oct 30, 2015)

markwind said:


> LOL
> Sorry that genuinely made me laugh. *Did you just ironically exemplify my point that you missed my point that I was talking about people's behavior, and not about their opinions?* Because you know, teenagers have that same issue oftentimes. Not calling you a teenager, just sayin'.. you sortof proved my point there if you felt adressed in my post.



No.

*Edit

I'd like to make a formal apology to markwind, d.salzenburg, and any others that I have deeply offended. 

I see now that it was wrong of me to come to the defense of someone who was attacked based on having 1 post and a disagreeable opinion. Maybe the guy IS a shill??? Maybe he ISN'T! We won't know until Jay gives us the report a year from now.

I'm sorry that if by pointing out that EW has been caught shilling in the past makes you think of me as an immature child. I deeply regret the pain and heart ache I've caused by pointing out facts instead of making baseless claims.

In the future, I'll make sure my claims are as baseless and uninformed as those I've offended in this thread. 

There you have it. The lowest form of wit from yours truly


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## D.Salzenberg (Oct 30, 2015)

TheUnfinished said:


> Or, rather than chucking mud around, you could actually check your pet theory and have some decisive evidence either way?
> 
> What do we want to do? Draw up a list of appropriate threads people can make their first posts in? Given the range of threads on VI and the number of people joining, it's inevitable that at some point someone's first post will be in a thread like this, and if their experience is negative, then, so be it.
> 
> ...



Wow, calm down a bit. I was only playing with everyone! I'm going to delete that post now, as it looks like it's only going to go downhill.
No hard feelings, was just in a very mischievous mood!!!!


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## Carbs (Oct 30, 2015)

D.Salzenberg said:


> Wow, calm down a bit. I was only playing with everyone! I'm going to delete that post now, as it looks like it's only going to go downhill.
> No hard feelings, was just in a very mischievous mood!!!!




You clearly come down on one side, or else you wouldn't be "liking" every post that attempts to make me out to be an asshole. I honestly don't think I deserve to be targeted with so much ferocity, as I never said anything that wasn't true.

But I'm not going to delete my posts just because I can't take the heat.


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## muk (Oct 30, 2015)

Gentlemen (I've seen no ladies in this thread...), could we please all calm down and stop the bickering?

These are the facts:


At some point Doug Rogers posted on the EW forum that all owner of a part of the Hollywood Orchestra series get the upcoming harp for free.
At a later point - opinions vary about how much later that was - Eastwest took that announcement/promise back and changed it to "every owner of the complete Hollywood Orchestra Series gets the harp for free".
Dougs initial posting was changed after the fact to represent this new, now valid promise.
A thread was opened by a member on the EW forum to discuss this, and later was closed by a moderator.

Now these are the facts.

Here are some additional bits of information that convey a bit of the reasoning of both sides. These are not facts, but attempts to explain the reasoning behind the two positions.

EW stated that the first announcement was made on an impulse, and was not financially sound (Edit: this was not officially expressed by Eastwest, but is Jay's assumption. Jay is an Eastwest representative on this forum. For an exact quote of EW's explanation see page one of this thread). The offer for the whole Hollywood Orchestra series Diamond edition for 599$ should cover most cases, and the new free harp offer is still generous.

Some users critizise that a promise was made, and a promise should not be broken/adapted whatever the reasons. There are also complaints how EW handled the situation: that there was no real apology; that Doug's first post was changed quietly instead of corrected and explained in a new thread; that a discussion of the matter on the EW-forum was closed by a moderator.


It think this is a pretty fair summary of what happened. Now everybody can make up their own mind on what to think about the story.


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## markwind (Oct 30, 2015)

Carbs said:


> You clearly come down on one side, or else you wouldn't be "liking" every post that attempts to make me out to be an asshole. I honestly don't think I deserve to be targeted so much ferocity, as I never said anything that wasn't true.





Carbs said:


> You clearly come down on one side, or else you wouldn't be "liking" every post that attempts to make me out to be an asshole. I honestly don't think I deserve to be targeted with so much ferocity, as I never said anything that wasn't true.


Even when we're right, we can be oh so wrong. You'll be ok.
And there is no targeting buddy (i say genuine). You just reply to things being said, so words are being replied to you - some people will agree with what you said, some people will disagree.

And just to be sure, there is absolutely no-one on here who is an asshole.. Because you know what? It's a forum, how could anyone be? I love this forum, but the end of the day you are just someone on the internet (to me). We're not defining people here, or their natures. My post has only been a call to correct the way a conversation centered around topics that could be used to further bash EW. When it comes to EW bashing, it's always done in the most unconstructive manner possible, and words are twisted constantly.. Largely because the frustration from people dissalows any proper sortof conversation to start. People are too eager to converse with finger pointing rather then with words.

So I step in and ask folks here to stop the darn pointing, and start the darn talking. There is a big difference. Because if you're not interested in genuinely talking about something? Then why even be in a topic that is designed to talk about something. To be heard? You can be heard by talking normally, patiently, respectfully. You'll probably be heard alot more even. 

Topics turn to venting more then I can count. But venting, never-ever-ever leads to anything.. So a tip to anyone who feels up to it; stop the darn venting, and start having the courage of heart to actually talk. Venting is easy, its safe, it feels like noone can touch your opinion. Talking takes bravery, because maybe, just maybe, there is a chance that if you really listen, you might change your opinion.. And that scares the bajeezus out of people - so they vent and they bash.


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 30, 2015)

muk said:


> EW stated that the first announcement was made on an impulse, and was not financially sound..



Just for clarity, that was _my_ speculation, Doug did not say precisely that in his quote that I posted at the beginning but I think it is the explanation that makes the most sense.

But the rest of your post is indeed factually accurate, a fair summary, and I think would be a good place for this to end. But I somehow doubt that it will.


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## muk (Oct 30, 2015)

Thanks for the clarification. I adjusted my post to represent this correction.


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## Carbs (Oct 30, 2015)

markwind said:


> Even when we're right, we can be oh so wrong. You'll be ok.
> And there is no targeting buddy (i say genuine). You just reply to things being said, so words are being replied to you - some people will agree with what you said, some people will disagree.
> 
> And just to be sure, there is absolutely no-one on here who is an asshole.. Because you know what? It's a forum, how could anyone be? I love this forum, but the end of the day you are just someone on the internet (to me). We're not defining people here, or their natures. My post has only been a call to correct the way a conversation centered around topics that could be used to further bash EW. When it comes to EW bashing, it's always done in the most unconstructive manner possible, and words are twisted constantly.. Largely because the frustration from people dissalows any proper sortof conversation to start. People are too eager to converse with finger pointing rather then with words.
> ...



I'm perfectly fine (what is this concern you have for me...I'm just a guy on the internet to you...??)

I ask you though. Can you please point out who was bashing EW in this thread? I must have missed it. Also, can you please point to the post that lead to this going completely off the rails? I can do the second one, but not the first one.


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## markwind (Oct 30, 2015)

Carbs said:


> I'm perfectly fine (what is this concern you have for me...I'm just a guy on the internet to you...??)


Heheh, oh boy.. Have a good one


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## markwind (Oct 30, 2015)

muk said:


> Gentlemen (I've seen no ladies in this thread...), could we please all calm down and stop the bickering?
> 
> These are the facts:
> 
> ...


QFT - well summarized


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## Carbs (Oct 30, 2015)

markwind said:


> Heheh, oh boy.. Have a good one



I'll take that as a no then .

Have a great weekend, friend.


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## Truth be told (Oct 30, 2015)

"But it would have been the right thing to was to create a topic to explain what happened, instead of correcting a post by editing it sortof sneakily (because i'm pretty sure that it wasnt edited straight after, unless I'm really mistaken, i'm pretty sure I've checked that post for weeks after the initial promise, as various posts linked to the original post).

If you make a promise, and its just something you can't deliver on, then you own it and don't backtrack your words by (just) editing a post and waiting for people to call you out on it. That's just not how you do proper business in my opinion."

My suspicions as well

Lets clear up this little mystery
I post under mrdsee on the Eastwest forum as I do in Soundcloud (shameless plug). I questioned what they did and was "temporarily? banned" I stated it was wrong. When they posted that they don't have the resources to check everyone who owns one or more of the Hollywood series in order to make good on their promise I chimed in with: and yet you have the resources when one wants to upgrade a library. For this I was "temporarily? banned"

Here is what I received from EastWest:
"Quote:
Originally Posted by *mrdsee*
Why was my post deleted? Did it violate the terms of service?

Forum rule

"Abuse of other users on the forum, or of the owners of the forum, including harassment, threats, and negativity, will cause the account to be suspended or revoked."

You continue to argue with forum administrators that do not make policy, plus an explanation was given to you about why the policy changed in post #15. You refuse to accept this and therefore we need a break from you for a few days.

You were also sent a message prior to this.

Admin"

Apparently I
"Abused the owners of the forum"
by speaking embarrassing truth to power.

But I chose not to take it lying down and registered to respond to this forums topic since I do believe It's "Bad business ethics"

I could have registered under mrdsee, but thought given what I had read per their paid spin doctor it would be 'oh he's just mad since we censored him" in an effort to discredit me and take your eyes off the ball. Of course one could have read it all had EW not removed posts and threads that were critical about their behavior.

There you have it
Not a shill for another Harp library, employee of a competitor, etc etc etc.
Just a simple man who decided not to 'take it in the caboose' while lying down


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## DR BOOWHO (Oct 30, 2015)

markwind said:


> LOL
> Sorry that genuinely made me laugh. Did you just ironically exemplify my point by overlooking the fact that I was talking about people's behavior, and actually not about their opinions? Because you know, teenagers have that same issue oftentimes. Not calling you a teenager, just sayin'.. you sortof proved my point there if you felt adressed in my post.


Ah the only adult has entered the discussion and proceeds to tell the children where we are all going wrong....I'm sure you are not just trying to be offensive.
It seems to me that your attitude is the very reason that these posts esculate into a feeding frenzy.Beginning with what seems like a rational observation you then proceed to pepper it with your condescending attitude.
And then you fell inline and stooped down to the level of accusing a new member of the very same thing that turned this thread into a debacle. I would suggest you take the high ground and teach what you profess to preach.


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 30, 2015)

Truth be told said:


> "
> 
> 
> There you have it
> ...



Then as I promised, I publicly apologize for being suspicious of you.


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## matolen (Oct 30, 2015)

As a happy owner of full composer cloud will hard, etc be added to the list


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## Geoff Grace (Oct 30, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> I think would be a good place for this to end. But I somehow doubt that it will.


As I mentioned above, from my perspective, the thread ended very appropriately yesterday with *NYC Composer*'s post.

Let's just call today's part the "Director's Cut." 



NYC Composer said:


> At the end of the day though, this topic was never going to change anyone's mind- especially the mind of the only person that would have the ability to address it. For the amusement of The Baron known as Greuner, let me restate this categorically:
> 
> "Doug...does...not...care."
> 
> As Jimmy/Chim would say- "Ankyu."


Best,

Geoff


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## babylonwaves (Oct 30, 2015)

Geoff Grace said:


> Let's just call today's part the "Director's Cut."


Director's Cut? Oh no, this is like Sharknado 4. at least equally entertaining - when you're in the middle of bouncing 150 tracks to audio


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## mc_deli (Oct 30, 2015)

I dunno, this is OK, but I thought the artic shill arctic chill cathartic krill thread in the IP tracked DAW section was better. VI is some kinda magnet for developer car crashes.

FWIW the first sample library I bought was VSL Harp 1 extended. Brilliant it is too


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## Carbs (Oct 30, 2015)

babylonwaves said:


> Director's Cut? Oh no, this is like Sharknado 4. at least equally entertaining - when you're in the middle of bouncing 150 tracks to audio



Lmao!


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## kitekrazy (Oct 31, 2015)

muk said:


> Gentlemen (I've seen no ladies in this thread...), could we please all calm down and stop the bickering?
> 
> These are the facts:
> 
> ...



Yep. Got the official email, says so on the website and facebook.

This is not the first time someone from a development team said something and had to retract. Usually I don't trust 100% of what they say until an email comes out or on some huge forum like KVR. Abelton misspoke on their Live Suite upgrade pricing. They got a lot of flack and Bitwig was around the corner and honored what they said for a limited time. I guess if you are in software development be careful what you say when it comes to pricing. These mistakes happen more than you think.


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## D.Salzenberg (Oct 31, 2015)

What I think people get wrong in this case though, is that it wasn't a pricing mistake but a FREE Product for heavens sake. So calling the terms of a FREE product giveaway bad business ethics is a pretty far fetched and ridiculous state of affairs in my humble opinion.


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## reddognoyz (Oct 31, 2015)

yes can we please change the name of this thread?? It is harshing my mellow, wrecking my party head, bumming me out. #sooverit


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## Daniel James (Oct 31, 2015)

Yay, East West threads!


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## Truth be told (Nov 2, 2015)

First they promised it to anyone with a hollywood library. Then if you've got all 4. Now I've read where there telling someone that has 3 gold libraries, and 1 silver that he does not qualify. Is there no end to the devious snake like morals of these clowns?


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## NYC Composer (Nov 2, 2015)

1. That's not news. It's been clear since the beginning of this thread, and before as well.
2. It's hyperbole.
3. As this thread had pretty much died, posting some new heated comment makes it look like you want to keep it going.

Edit-As a matter of fact, Mr. Truth, it would seem this is the only thread you've commented in on this fine forum, which seems a little odd. Surely you have other musical interests and opinions?


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## Baron Greuner (Nov 2, 2015)

Always remember this axiom Mr Truth….


*Doug_just_doesn't_care!*

I'd like to meet this Doug whoever he is.


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## D.Salzenberg (Nov 2, 2015)

Truth be told said:


> Is there no end to the devious snake like morals of these clowns?


Good grief. You may not be on the side of a competitor, but it seems to me that those of us who were suspicious of someone joining the forum just to bash East West were right in a way, as you obviously only joined to further your personal agenda against East West.


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 2, 2015)

BTW, here is the definitive info from Admin on the SOL forum:

"Iris, there is no Silver version of the Solo Instruments, only Gold and Diamond. To qualify for the FREE Harp you need all four sections of the orchestra (Gold or Diamond). As a previous poster said you can upgrade the Woodwinds Silver to Gold and get the Gold Harp. Maybe you don't like the Woodwinds because you only have Silver version which is missing a lot from the Gold/Diamond versions, and please make sure all "instrument updates" have been run from our SUPPORT CENTER, we are constantly improving these products. Each Instrument update only takes less than a minute.

http://www.soundsonline.com/Support

Another option is to subscribe to Composer Cloud, yes you'll have some of the collections already but once we add the Solo Instruments there will be 5 new releases since launch that you probably don't have, plus you will have access to our entire collection."


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## kitekrazy (Nov 2, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> BTW, here is the definitive info from Admin on the SOL forum:
> 
> "Iris, there is no Silver version of the Solo Instruments, only Gold and Diamond. *To qualify for the FREE Harp you need all four sections of the orchestra (Gold or Diamond)*. As a previous poster said you can upgrade the Woodwinds Silver to Gold and get the Gold Harp. Maybe you don't like the Woodwinds because you only have Silver version which is missing a lot from the Gold/Diamond versions, and please make sure all "instrument updates" have been run from our SUPPORT CENTER, we are constantly improving these products. Each Instrument update only takes less than a minute.
> 
> ...



Doesn't say this on the webpage. 

http://www.soundsonline.com/Hollywood-Orchestra

Hollywood Harp is offered free to the owners of the complete Hollywood orchestra.

https://www.facebook.com/eastwestsound/?fref=ts

_If you own all sections of the Hollywood Orchestra, you´ll get the Harp for free. You´ll be notified via mail once it´s released. Further instructions will, of course, be included._


Why does your information conflict with these two sources?


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 2, 2015)

I don't see a conflict, just less specific. It seems common sense to me that if you have all of HO Diamond you get the Diamond harp free, if you have all of HO Gold you get the Gold harp free, and if you have some Silver you have to upgrade to Gold to get the Gold harp free.


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## Truth be told (Nov 2, 2015)

"I don't see a conflict"
Yep, two peas in a pod of shame.....

Gee daddy, what did you do at work today


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## NYC Composer (Nov 2, 2015)

Truth be told said:


> "I don't see a conflict"
> Yep, two peas in a pod of shame.....
> 
> Gee daddy, what did you do at work today



16 posts, all in this thread. You're becoming really really obvious.
I guess you turned out to be a troll with an agenda after all.


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## Truth be told (Nov 2, 2015)

As opposed to one defending the indefensible


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## Mystic (Nov 2, 2015)

Truth be told, you made some good points but you've become very insulting. Please refrain from taking the troll road.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 2, 2015)

Truth be told said:


> As opposed to one defending the indefensible


As opposed to being objective and civil.


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## AllanH (Nov 2, 2015)

Is there an ETA on the Harp, other than "November?" (hopefully November of 2015!)


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## Geoff Grace (Nov 2, 2015)

I believe that if you can make each point just once with a well-reasoned argument and without ad hominem, then you'll stand a good chance of winning people's respect.

Best,

Geoff


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## gjelul (Nov 2, 2015)

In all honesty, I actually think that it is very generous they're giving away the Harp to HW Orchestra owners for free. 

I own a lot of Vienna products and when I asked them if there was an upgrade path for the Vienna Harp to the newest version I was given a plain NO and was told to buy it new again. Basically, I'd be paying twice for the same product. They lost me right there. 

At the end of the day with so many options on everything these days, what makes the difference is customer service. I am sure Spitfire, CineHarp, Orchestral Tools and now, EastWest will be more than enough for me to forget the Vienna Harp all together. 

Same here, if EastWest offered it and then they changed their mind... whatever, life is too short.


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## kitekrazy (Nov 3, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> I don't see a conflict, just less specific. It seems common sense to me that if you have all of HO Diamond you get the Diamond harp free, if you have all of HO Gold you get the Gold harp free, and if you have some Silver you have to upgrade to Gold to get the Gold harp free.



There is no mention of the Harp labeled as a gold, silver, whatever. Nothing on the website, forum or FB reflects this. Once again conflicting information. Don't take this as some sort of attack but it seems like there is some confusion in all of this and maybe they left you in the dark as well. Confusion tends to create threads like this.


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## Hanu_H (Nov 4, 2015)

This is just the way how EW rolls. Same kind of thing happened when HOW was released. There were ads telling us that it was done by the same people than HW and HB. I even saw an add with Nick Phoenix name on the box. But when it came out, it was not there anymore. There was no info available and almost no demos. If someone asked about it at their forum, the message got deleted. They wanted people to believe it was done by the same people even if it wasn't. Compared to that this harp thing is not really a bad business ethics...

-Hannes


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 4, 2015)

kitekrazy said:


> There is no mention of the Harp labeled as a gold, silver, whatever. Nothing on the website, forum or FB reflects this. Once again conflicting information. Don't take this as some sort of attack but it seems like there is some confusion in all of this and maybe they left you in the dark as well. Confusion tends to create threads like this.



With all the 4 sections of the H.O., AFAIR, Silver always came out considerably later than Diamond and Gold so those who have bought them would logically, in my view, not assume that there was yet a silver version, and again, logically, if one had Silver would not expect the harp for free.

If you see it differently, that is fine and if you are disappointed, I am sorry.


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 4, 2015)

Hanu_H said:


> This is just the way how EW rolls. Same kind of thing happened when HOW was released. There were ads telling us that it was done by the same people than HW and HB. I even saw an add with Nick Phoenix name on the box. But when it came out, it was not there anymore. There was no info available and almost no demos. If someone asked about it at their forum, the message got deleted. They wanted people to believe it was done by the same people even if it wasn't. Compared to that this harp thing is not really a bad business ethics...
> 
> -Hannes



That is not quite accurate as I remember it. Nick _was_ involved in the recording and creation of HOW and that is why his name was listed. During the editing process, however, he and Doug had a business dispute, so he was not involved in the editing and therefore when it came out, he was not listed. Eventually they worked out their differences, Nick returned and helped edit an update and now you see him listed on the credits.


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## Hanu_H (Nov 4, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> That is not quite accurate as I remember it. Nick _was_ involved in the recording and creation of HOW and that is why his name was listed. During the editing process, however, he and Doug had a business dispute, so he was not involved in the editing and therefore when it came out, he was not listed. Eventually they worked out their differences, Nick returned and helped edit an update and now you see him listed on the credits.



Of course it's not...Isn't it a bit weird that someone who was first advertised to make the library suddenly disappears from the credits? How is that even possible? If he worked on the recordings how can he be left out from the credits in the first place? And that's not the worst part, why there was no information about it? EW didn't announce anything about it and all the posts on their forum got deleted and most of them were not at all offensive. What about Thomas Bergersen? He was also advertised to be in the team making HOW. Advertising something and selling something different without proper information is a definition of a scam. Add to this that these libraries are not resalable and you definitely got bad business ethics...

-Hannes


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 4, 2015)

C'mon it's not difficult. He was involved in the recording so he is in the credits. They have a dispute and so probably at his request he gets taken out of the credits. They settle things and he comes back to edit and is in the credits. That's it. Not sure about TJ, I think generally he was involved in recording, not editing but I cannot swear to it. 

And Hannes, if you want to keep bringing up past history and the SOL forum policies that you do not like to support your view, obviously I cannot stop you but as we have seen in this thread and others, and frankly more importantly on the SOL forum, and even more importantly in the sales totals, not everybody sees it that way. 

So I will leave you to have your opinion and probably continue to pee in every thread where EW is mentioned, but I am no longer going to engage with you and will simply hide your posts.

I would ask as a personal favor for others not to quote them and for those that do, I guess I can only conclude that they enjoy trying to bait me, and I am determined to spend less time fighting with those who are not ever going to change.


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## Astronaut FX (Nov 4, 2015)

Is there a list of other posters you'd like us to remember to not quote for your benefit? Besides Hannes (and I guess me now too).


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## kitekrazy (Nov 4, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> With all the 4 sections of the H.O., AFAIR, Silver always came out considerably later than Diamond and Gold so those who have bought them would logically, in my view, not assume that there was yet a silver version, and again, logically, if one had Silver would not expect the harp for free.
> 
> *If you see it differently, *that is fine and if you are disappointed, I am sorry.



I'm only seeing what is on the website and Facebook. I have no clue what to think. Maybe since you are somewhat of an inside guy you could clear it up for us. What's different is that this is a single instrument and not an ensemble.


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## Guido Negraszus (Nov 4, 2015)

Wow, I haven't been following this for a while. Can't believe its still going strong. Looking at the last few comments I would suggest that Doug should read his diary in order to check whether he travelled to Dallas in 1962 because he will be soon linked to the John F. Kennedy assassination.


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 4, 2015)

kitekrazy said:


> I'm only seeing what is on the website and Facebook. I have no clue what to think. Maybe since you are somewhat of an inside guy you could clear it up for us.



I have told you all that I know the actual paths are and what I believe is the reasoning behind it. I will suggest Doug that next time around the announcements have more specific info.


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 4, 2015)

Guido Negraszus said:


> Wow, I haven't been following this for a while. Can't believe its still going strong. Looking at the last few comments I would suggest that Doug should read his diary in order to check whether he travelled to Dallas in 1962 because he will be soon linked to the John F. Kennedy assassination.



LOL! I appreciate the opportunity to laugh.


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## Truth be told (Nov 4, 2015)

Oh, if only "he who does not care" could censor all of "the great unwashed"....


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## Guido Negraszus (Nov 4, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> LOL! I appreciate the opportunity to laugh.


Lol, couldn't resist.


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## kitekrazy (Nov 4, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> I have told you all that I know the actual paths are and what I believe is the reasoning behind it. I will suggest Doug that next time around the announcements have more specific info.



You are correct. I got an answer on FB. I'm passing on this deal because I'm $400 short of getting Gold despite the great deal. The free harp had no influence nor am I bothered by it. I will continue to build my HO library one piece at a time.


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## markwind (Nov 5, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> That is not quite accurate as I remember it. Nick _was_ involved in the recording and creation of HOW and that is why his name was listed. During the editing process, however, he and Doug had a business dispute, so he was not involved in the editing and therefore when it came out, he was not listed. Eventually they worked out their differences, Nick returned and helped edit an update and now you see him listed on the credits.


I'm pretty sure this was well pretty well explained on the EW forums actually. People just end up choosing to believe what they want to believe and disregard the nuance of what actually happened.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 5, 2015)

Truth be told said:


> Oh, if only "he who does not care" could censor all of "the great unwashed"....


Yup, Doug does not care...and you're a troll.


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## markwind (Nov 5, 2015)

Tone Deaf said:


> Is there a list of other posters you'd like us to remember to not quote for your benefit? Besides Hannes (and I guess me now too).


I'm sorry, but this forum makes it pretty clear that when you have an agenda against a company, you won't listen to what's happened. It's like conspiracy theorists refusing to understand that maybe, maybe, they don't really understand what actually happened and liberally fill in the blanks on their own and with limited awareness of the situation on the whole.

So yes, to me, some folks here are just way too liberal in the way they disregard facts in how things went down. They fail to understand how business intricacies (like a falling out) and their consequences (removal of peoples names from credits) does not equate a scam is just beyond me (this of course, being a direct comment to Hannes). It's just reading into things with what makes sense to you instead of actually trying to understand people and what motivates their decisions.

And If I felt so inclined to be oftentimes involved with EW discussions (this thread is a first in a long long time), I would absolutely hide some people on here too.

Also just a disclaimer - this is not because I'm a fanboy of EW as some of ya might consider me. I'm just very understanding of business, and how tricky it can be.


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## D.Salzenberg (Nov 5, 2015)

markwind said:


> I'm sorry, but this forum makes it pretty clear that when you have an agenda against a company, you won't listen to what's happened. It's like conspiracy theorists refusing to understand that maybe, maybe, they don't really understand what actually happened and liberally fill in the blanks on their own and with limited awareness of the situation on the whole.
> 
> So yes, to me, some folks here are just way too liberal in the way they disregard facts in how things went down. They fail to understand how business intricacies (like a falling out) and their consequences (removal of peoples names from credits) does not equate a scam is just beyond me (this of course, being a direct comment to Hannes). It's just reading into things with what makes sense to you instead of actually trying to understand people and what motivates their decisions.
> 
> ...


+100
Totally agree with this.
Reading some of the ridiculous posts on here, it's no wonder that musicians have such a bad reputation when it comes to understanding business.


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## MarcelM (Nov 5, 2015)

the customer is king

but i guess its rare, and some companys treat the customers better than others. 

easy as that!


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## NYC Composer (Nov 5, 2015)

D.Salzenberg said:


> +100
> Totally agree with this.
> Reading some of the ridiculous posts on here, it's no wonder that musicians have such a bad reputation when it comes to understanding business.



Totally disagree. One should remove the overheated passions from a discussion but keep an eye on what's reasonable and fair, and a lot of negativity towards certain companies is valid fodder for debate. That's what a "forum" is for- discussion, debate and possible but unnecessary consensus.


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## Astronaut FX (Nov 5, 2015)

markwind said:


> I'm sorry, but this forum makes it pretty clear that when you have an agenda against a company, you won't listen to what's happened. It's like conspiracy theorists refusing to understand that maybe, maybe, they don't really understand what actually happened and liberally fill in the blanks on their own and with limited awareness of the situation on the whole.
> 
> So yes, to me, some folks here are just way too liberal in the way they disregard facts in how things went down. They fail to understand how business intricacies (like a falling out) and their consequences (removal of peoples names from credits) does not equate a scam is just beyond me (this of course, being a direct comment to Hannes). It's just reading into things with what makes sense to you instead of actually trying to understand people and what motivates their decisions.
> 
> ...



Not sure why you would direct this toward me. My post was in reference to Jay's request to the community to never quote Hannes's posts going forward, and that if we did, he'd have no choice but to assume we did so to bait him (Jay). 

Regardless of which side of this particular debate you're on, this seems like a very narcissistic and arrogant request and assumption on his part.

If Jay can't control himself with regard to engaging with certain posters with whom he has long standing differences, that's his problem. He's an adult. It's not up to us to be careful who we quote.


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## Truth be told (Nov 5, 2015)

"I would ask as a personal favor for others not to quote them and for those that do, I guess I can only conclude that they enjoy trying to bait me, and I am determined to spend less time fighting with those who are not ever going to change" 

"those who are not ever going to change" 


Talk about a clear case of the pot calling the kettle black


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## NYC Composer (Nov 5, 2015)

Truth be Trolled.


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## jacobthestupendous (Nov 5, 2015)

Man, is this thread still going on? Last time I checked in, Jay was challenging the legitimacy of *Truth be told* as an actual person whose opinion mattered; now *Truth be told* is now all grown up with a proper "Member" ranking, even if 83% of their posts were on this thread; another week or two of this thread and they'll be a Senior Member.


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## Truth be told (Nov 5, 2015)

Would go along nicely with my AARP and Senior Citizen status!

and of course the classic "Hey kid, get off my lawn!"


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## markwind (Nov 5, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> Totally disagree. One should remove the overheated passions from a discussion but keep an eye on what's reasonable and fair, and a lot of negativity towards certain companies is valid fodder for debate. That's what a "forum" is for- discussion, debate and possible but unnecessary consensus.


Completely agree. And to clarify; your point and mine arent mutually exclusive. It depends where you draw the line on the points you raised, on what's reasonable - which we perhaps do at similar points, perhaps we do not. But that's the whole conundrum of it man - what's reasonable to me might not be to you and vise versa. Hence - your point doesn't really add to anything other than stating the obvious in regards to 'whats reasonable' that each of us defines in our own way - being a former academic student where debating was pretty much the whole point of it all its kind of obvious that some folk here arent really participating in this topic to have a nice good debate about something.

The way people overlook elements of a situation just to add a sense of strength and justification to their own viewpoint in regards to EW, makes it truly come off like there are a couple of conspiracy theorists here that love filling in blanks and judge before asking, because any answer given is distrusted. Then why be on a forum posting at all if you're not gonna listen to another person's response. That's just a self-satisfying-masturbation session, which I guess is cool if you're in to that sort of a thing (Not saying you, NYC C, are included in this, just saying - some people here are clearly, not to debate, but to rant. Which is a real big difference imo.
Forums can be used for ranting, but if I care enough I will call people out on it as to me its the lowest form of forum-participation.


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## markwind (Nov 5, 2015)

Tone Deaf said:


> Not sure why you would direct this toward me. My post was in reference to Jay's request to the community to never quote Hannes's posts going forward, and that if we did, he'd have no choice but to assume we did so to bait him (Jay).
> 
> Regardless of which side of this particular debate you're on, this seems like a very narcissistic and arrogant request and assumption on his part.
> 
> If Jay can't control himself with regard to engaging with certain posters with whom he has long standing differences, that's his problem. He's an adult. It's not up to us to be careful who we quote.


Ah, yeah I just meant to respond to you as a means to carry on the line of thought from Hannes. You make a good point. Though I can understand it from Jays point of view that it can become oh very tiring.. Especially if it goes on for so long, even moreso when a conversation about the matter doesnt seem quite possible. I wouldn't call it very narcissitic or arrogant, though I think that's just an easy way to try to put someone in a un-empathetic spot - To me it just shows someone who's tired from certain tendencies from certain people and tries his best to avoid more of the same. But I am of the opinion that someone is allowed to always ask, its up to the adult to whom the question is directed to answer in his or her own way. A question (like jays) does not a narcisist make.


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## Hanu_H (Nov 5, 2015)

I really don't have any agenda against EW, I have some of their libraries and use them. But if someone advertises and sells a product with some names(pretty big on the sampling industry) and then they are removed from it without any information during the library release, for me that is lying to your customers. It doesn't matter who is the dev. I really don't care if Nick worked on it, I don't have HOW, but if something like that happens, the company should inform customers that something has changed in the production team that they advertised. Not a big thing to do but if you sell libraries that can't be returned or sold, I think all the information should be shared to customers. And what I've heard about the library it was not on the bar of the other libraries on the release and was later updated by Nick. What if Nick wouldn't have ever returned to fix the library? Then people would have bought the library and would never have library they were promised...

And Markwind, you seem to think you are a supreme overlord of opinions who is always right? You think you are the adult here but you attack people more than anyone. I asked Jay a question he can't answer and you jump in blame me to be some kind or conspiracy theorist?

-Hannes


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 5, 2015)

So now I see last post notifications from "ignored member." This is the gift that will keep on giving 

Let me be clear: I have no problem with someone coming in and stating a negative opinion about EW, it's business practices, or the way I do my job, if its not snide or hyperbolic. I can understand wanting to do so once, maybe even twice. But when people do it multiple times in the same thread and/or jump into every thread that has EW in the title and do so, at that point it is IMHO trolling.

What I have come to understand is that when I jump into every thread arguing against every EW attack some here see that also as trolling so I am going to do that far less. And the ignore feature, for what is after all a very small number of forum members who actually do this, will be a great help to me to stick to that.


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## markwind (Nov 5, 2015)

Hanu_H said:


> And Markwind, you seem to think you are a supreme overlord of opinions who is always right? You think you are the adult here but you attack people more than anyone. I asked Jay a question he can't answer and you jump in blame me to be some kind or conspiracy theorist?
> 
> -Hannes


I'm calling people out on their way of behaving in discussions (Ie. how people read and reply) , not their respective opinions. It's funny how the two get mixed up, but I guess feeling offended can do that. But I don't care if me calling someone out on it means im stepping on someones toes Hannes, that says more about that person does then it does about me. I genuinely dont have a dog in this , you can like me, dislike me, or just my posts. I care about people treating folks fairly in a discussion or debate, regardless of a disagreement. And when it comes to EW, that seems to be an issue for some people - ie they rant rather then debate.

And in posts where I say I agree or dont agree on someones opinion that doesnt mean i'm a supreme overlording it up in here. It just means I give my opinion, and I try to give my reasons for it why I think the other persons opinion is or isnt right, which usually has to do with how I feel about peoples argumentation for their opinion. And always am I open to admit to be wrong, but not too many on here are up for actual debate, ranting is as far as it goes, which is why im not the most active member of this forum, its just poorly moderated in that it allows ranting from a select few far too much imo - And I dont play nice with peoples finger pointing, I will call people out on that.

I guess what you are picking up on is that I don't try to speak in too friendly a tone, I kind of plump my observations like I would in an academic essay. But that doesn't mean i'm hostile neither, at least thats definitely not my intention - like I said I genuinely dont have dog in this. I just care about keeping a discussion fair for folks involved and since there was the typical non-constructive-anti-EW trend in this topic, I felt like joining and breaking down the non-constructiveness thats all too often occurring in anti-EW sentiments on this forum. And you so happen to contribute to that .


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## Hanu_H (Nov 5, 2015)

So how was my posts ranting? I pointed facts that did actually happen and said that in the light of these things this harp thing is not even bad. I did say I use EW products so I am not anti EW or do I have anything at the stake here because I don't own anything from Hollywood Orchestra. But you protecting EW's honor derail the thread to your own rants about things that are not even remotely on topic. Same with Jay, he just label me as a EW hater and wants everyone to ignore me. Basic tactics when people say the truth and you are not happy with it...

-Hannes


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## Truth be told (Nov 5, 2015)

If there's a plethora of "rants" about Eastwest on VI it most likely was richly deserved. Since I only followed them on their "Forum?" while at the sametime not knowing about their unjust censorship of warranted critic, it's was easy to get the impression that it's all peaches and cream over in Eastwestville.


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## Truth be told (Nov 5, 2015)

Looks like 8Dio got wind of the Harp Fiasco lol. As I just got a Email from them that has in the subject line: "How about 5 Different Harps or 4 Steinways in Ensemble?"


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## OleJoergensen (Nov 5, 2015)

The Harp sounds lovely! Just listen to a demo by Nick.....

http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/showthread.php?p=770140#post770140


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## mc_deli (Nov 5, 2015)

Troll's trolled troller gets trolling and is trolled again!

It's like Moomin world in here!


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## james7275 (Nov 5, 2015)

OleJoergensen said:


> The Harp sounds lovely! Just listen to a demo by Nick.....
> 
> http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/showthread.php?p=770140#post770140


Beautiful!


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## kitekrazy (Nov 5, 2015)

D.Salzenberg said:


> +100
> Totally agree with this.
> Reading some of the ridiculous posts on here, it's no wonder that musicians have such a bad reputation when it comes to understanding business.


 It's worse when musicians become developers.


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## kitekrazy (Nov 5, 2015)

Truth be told said:


> Looks like 8Dio got wind of the Harp Fiasco lol. As I just got a Email from them that has in the subject line: "How about 5 Different Harps or 4 Steinways in Ensemble?"



I couldn't the link for 5 different harps. Their website is noisy.


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## Truth be told (Nov 5, 2015)

Looks like it's their Acoustic Grand Ensembles Volume 2 library.


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## Fleer (Nov 5, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> So now I see last post notifications from "ignored member." This is the gift that will keep on giving
> 
> Let me be clear: I have no problem with someone coming in and stating a negative opinion about EW, it's business practices, or the way I do my job, if its not snide or hyperbolic. I can understand wanting to do so once, maybe even twice. But when people do it multiple times in the same thread and/or jump into every thread that has EW in the title and do so, at that point it is IMHO trolling.
> 
> What I have come to understand is that when I jump into every thread arguing against every EW attack some here see that also as trolling so I am going to do that far less. And the ignore feature, for what is after all a very small number of forum members who actually do this, will be a great help to me to stick to that.


Would be sad to see you come here less often, Jay. Your interventions are always to the point and helpful.


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## Simon Ravn (Nov 6, 2015)

Fleer said:


> Would be sad to see you come here less often, Jay. Your interventions are always to the point and helpful.



Don't worry, Jay has said 1000 times during the past 10 years that he will stay out of EW threads in the future - he won't.


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## trumpoz (Nov 6, 2015)

*munches on popcorn*


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 6, 2015)

Simon Ravn said:


> Don't worry, Jay has said 1000 times during the past 10 years that he will stay out of EW threads in the future - he won't.



And that is not what I am saying now. I am just saying I will pick my battles more carefully instead of arguing with the same small group of people over and over.

And thank you Fleer for the kind words and for not being one of those people.


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## kitekrazy (Nov 6, 2015)

Simon Ravn said:


> Don't worry, Jay has said 1000 times during the past 10 years that he will stay out of EW threads in the future - he won't.



Good. He's my #1 support guy if I ever have issues with EW products.


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## dcoscina (Nov 7, 2015)

For what it's worth, the Harp is gorgeous. Great for free but I'd buy it if I didn't have the complete Hollywood series anyhow. In fact, I subscribed to the Composer Cloud just so I could get it early. A lot of other really cool libraries I'm going to try out as well.


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