# Courses for learning industry standard notation



## OleJoergensen (Jul 16, 2021)

Hello everyone.

Not sure if this is the right forum to post this….. 

Im looking for education, video courses, become an orchestrator, to learn how to notate music, which is used in the “industry”.
Im using Finale for many years and are happy with this software.
I also look for knowledge on accidentals, when to use dobble flat/ sharp or natural.


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## Markrs (Jul 16, 2021)

A good place to start is the orchestration online Facebook group, YouTube channel and website 









Orchestration Online | Facebook


Orchestration Online is: resources for composers and orchestrators. Visit http://orchestrationonline.com for free advice and useful information. This is a hate-free zone. No boring arguments over...




www.facebook.com







https://youtube.com/user/OrchestrationOnline











Orchestration Online


Community of Orchestrators containing resources for composers, musicians, and arrangers of all ages and levels of professional experience.




orchestrationonline.com





I believe there is a view you can do if you sign up to the Thomas Goss patreon. This might no longer be active so it would be worth asking on the Facebook group.









Thomas Goss | creating Videos About Orchestration | Patreon


Become a patron of Thomas Goss today: Get access to exclusive content and experiences on the world’s largest membership platform for artists and creators.




www.patreon.com


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## OleJoergensen (Jul 16, 2021)

Markrs said:


> A good place to start is the orchestration online Facebook group, YouTube channel and website
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for sharing Mark.


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## Robin (Jul 16, 2021)

I would recommend getting a copy of Elaine Gould's "Behind Bars" to learn about general notation conventions before you dive into the specifics of the "scoring industry".


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## tmhuud (Jul 16, 2021)

That’s tricky because depending on what part of the world your in notes, rests, etc are referenced differently. So … when you say ‘standard’ , that’s objective.

You say *quarter note* (American) I say *crotchet, etc….etc. *


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## JJP (Jul 16, 2021)

If you really want to learn about notation, and also have a great reference to keep on your shelf, I second @Robin in recommending "Behind Bars". It is the most comprehensive reference that exists today.


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## bryla (Jul 16, 2021)

A third recommendation for "Behind Bars". If there is a standard this book is it.

Not to take anything away from 'orchestration communities' but well-meaning as they may be, the focus is not notation or engraving and there are even many questionable or simply outdated practices in recent orchestration manuals.


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## OleJoergensen (Jul 16, 2021)

Thank you everyone. 
next month sample library will be a book instead


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## MauroPantin (Jul 16, 2021)

If you are aiming for scoring specifics there are some legal scores and cues online. Marco Beltrami posts some on his website, but more can be found or purchased. Once you get the basics from "Behind Bars" having that kind of real-world reference is a great asset.


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## OleJoergensen (Jul 17, 2021)

MauroPantin said:


> If you are aiming for scoring specifics there are some legal scores and cues online. Marco Beltrami posts some on his website, but more can be found or purchased. Once you get the basics from "Behind Bars" having that kind of real-world reference is a great asset.


Thank you for sharing.


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## OleJoergensen (Jul 17, 2021)

What do you prefer, a physical book or an Ebook?
The Ebook is half the price. Maybe its more practical to have it on computer + mobil devices even a physical book is just nice.


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## JT (Jul 17, 2021)

I assume that you already can read music. In addition to Gould's book, I would practice transcribing music. Just single line melodies to start with. It's good practice to listen and turn what you hear into notation.


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## OleJoergensen (Jul 18, 2021)

JT said:


> I assume that you already can read music. In addition to Gould's book, I would practice transcribing music. Just single line melodies to start with. It's good practice to listen and turn what you hear into notation.


Thats a good idea, one of the more difficult I think .


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## JJP (Jul 18, 2021)

OleJoergensen said:


> What do you prefer, a physical book or an Ebook?
> The Ebook is half the price. Maybe its more practical to have it on computer + mobil devices even a physical book is just nice.


I have both. When I purchased the e-book a couple years ago, I found it wasn't all that well implemented -- very basic and no search function. However, it is handy to have a copy on my tablet and desktop.

I find myself quite often simply pulling the physical book off the shelf for a quick reference. It's just as fast to check the index when needing to reference something, since you have to do that in the e-book as well.

Since I don't know if the e-book has been updated, I recommend the physical copy. This is a reference that can be useful for decades, so the physical copy won't have to be re-bought or updated.


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## Rodney Money (Jul 19, 2021)

You just want to learn to notate properly? I’m right here. It’s literally what I do for a living. Feel free to ask me anything. I love talking about this stuff. Here’s an example:


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## Nils Neumann (Jul 19, 2021)

Rodney Money said:


> You just want to learn to notate properly? I’m right here. It’s literally what I do for a living. Feel free to ask me anything. I love talking about this stuff. Here’s an example:


That's beautiful!


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## OleJoergensen (Jul 19, 2021)

JJP said:


> I have both. When I purchased the e-book a couple years ago, I found it wasn't all that well implemented -- very basic and no search function. However, it is handy to have a copy on my tablet and desktop.
> 
> I find myself quite often simply pulling the physical book off the shelf for a quick reference. It's just as fast to check the index when needing to reference something, since you have to do that in the e-book as well.
> 
> Since I don't know if the e-book has been updated, I recommend the physical copy. This is a reference that can be useful for decades, so the physical copy won't have to be re-bought or updated.


Thank you JJP.
Also books both looks nice and helps with the accustic .
I will safe money for the physically book..


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## OleJoergensen (Jul 19, 2021)

Rodney Money said:


> You just want to learn to notate properly? I’m right here. It’s literally what I do for a living. Feel free to ask me anything. I love talking about this stuff. Here’s an example:


Thank you Rodney, that is very generous.
Its a beautiful example you show here. So when its a song, with lirycs, the dynamics and hairpins are written above the staff? 
Yes, I want to learn to notate properly. I do read scores, play the piano and drums. I try to write orchestral music (simple works)but often is in doubt with how to notate 
- phrasing for strings- should the slur tell bow change or the phrasing? Bow change is probably a great part of the phrasing. 
- Also what are the rules for accidentals like double sharp and double flat, there must be some kind of logical system?
- There must be some standard how big the note should be, how many bars on a A4 page etc.
- Is there an education to become a- Im not sure the right word: orchestrator? Music notater etc…. .


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## Robin (Jul 19, 2021)

Rodney Money said:


> You just want to learn to notate properly? I’m right here. It’s literally what I do for a living. Feel free to ask me anything. I love talking about this stuff. Here’s an example:


I'm sorry, but while there might be some artistic merit to this example, it is unfortunately far away from any notation convention and should NOT be seen as an example for "industry standard" notation or engraving.


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## zedmaster (Jul 19, 2021)

David Christiansen's Sibelius course is amazing (though mostly tailored to Sibelius). He worked on orchestrating AAA video game music for The Witcher 3, The Elder Scrolls Online, Crysis 2 and so many more.

https://www.david-christiansen.com/courses
I made a video about it:


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## Rodney Money (Jul 19, 2021)

Robin said:


> I'm sorry, but while there might be some artistic merit to this example, it is unfortunately far away from any notation convention and should NOT be seen as an example for "industry standard" notation or engraving.


Listen here brother, that was an example of how well I know Finale that I can even do that with it. Good lord what’s wrong with you people? Fine, here’s an example of a commission right now from a professional orchestra in Spain. Happy now?


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## zedmaster (Jul 19, 2021)

Rodney Money said:


> Listen here brother, that was an example of how well I know Finale that I can even do that with it. Good lord what’s wrong with you people? Fine, here’s an example of a commission right now from a professional orchestra in Spain. Happy now?


I like both of your examples hehe.


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## Robin (Jul 19, 2021)

Rodney Money said:


> Listen here brother, that was an example of how well I know Finale that I can even do that with it. Good lord what’s wrong with you people? Fine, here’s an example of a commission right now from a professional orchestra in Spain. Happy now?


If I remember correctly, this thread was about learning to notate properly and not about doing awesome stuff in Finale. But good for you that you know how to use Finale, brother.

PS: For the sake of constructivism, I think there are still some questions that the OP directed at you that you offered to answer.


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## Dr. Shagwell (Jul 19, 2021)

OleJoergensen said:


> Yes, I want to learn to notate properly. I do read scores, play the piano and drums. I try to write orchestral music (simple works)but often is in doubt with how to notate
> - phrasing for strings- should the slur tell bow change or the phrasing? Bow change is probably a great part of the phrasing.
> - Also what are the rules for accidentals like double sharp and double flat, there must be some kind of logical system?
> - There must be some standard how big the note should be, how many bars on a A4 page etc.
> - Is there an education to become a- Im not sure the right word: orchestrator? Music notater etc…. .



Some really good answers here already. 

Let me just offer some additional thoughts that I did not see thus far.

1. Yes, get "Behind Bars". If you are really looking to set up as a pro, then I would advise reading multiple books on the subject. Sometimes you just need to read things a few times before it clicks, and also for whatever reason I found I had "a-ha" moments with one book, but not another, even though the same info was in both.

1b. The best web site I know for staying on top of things: https://www.scoringnotes.com/

With your questions above, you can find the answers in books. One thing to remember is notation is as much an art as it is a science. I think above all clarity, correctness and efficiency are the most important. 

2. The backbone of "good notation" is edit, edit, edit. Or is you prefer "proof-read" "proof-read" "proof-read". There is a certain mindset that is required. I know I am not naturally a dot the i cross the t type person. So I found making a checklist allowed me to work up to standard. For example, one time just checking the notes. Another edit just checking articulation, another for only dynamics. (In general, people don't pay enough attention to articulations and dynamics) When I made a mistake I would add this to the checklist for next time. Everyone makes mistakes.....but don't keep on repeating them.


I'll offer *general thoughts* on your questions;

** Context matters: Concert hall scores are different than film studio scores. So does your musical background. You play piano and drums, both percussive instruments. 


1. String phrasing: Obviously you first need to learn the various techniques, articulations, idiomatic writing etc. However....that was not your question. My answer has now changed from when I was a student at conservatory when I wanted to "know it all." I'll repeat "_I think above all clarity, correctness and efficiency are the most important."_

Over the years I have seen this become an area of a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
Let the concertmaster figure it out. (provided you did my quote above) They will do it so fast, it's their role, and it saves wasting time over a well-intentioned but ultimately a mistake. If it's "Film Music" 90% of the time it is self-evident the desire emotional effect intended. Let's say you go the phrasing route........ they won't stop because they ran out of bow, they'll just re-bow. It's like worrying about breath for a singer. Yes, you need to consider it, but they are not going to die for you. 

What I have seen is over-notated parts that become a mess once errors are found. One time a new cat put in up and down bows all over the place. When the concertmaster asked why, as they were trying to follow as it was obvious he put in so much time, the orchestrator replied " Because I know the up bow is a little bit softer and I wanted down on more accented notes." 

Ok, all well and good "in theory". Except Violin players literally spend years, and years to make up and down even. His concern over this showed clearly he did not play violin. The bowing was awkward. It cost time, and once the concertmaster knew this adjusted the bowing and the next take was perfect. 

So..... the takeaway is to know who you are writing for and trust them. If you need it bowed, you can always throw an extra $100 or so to the concertmaster to do so the day before. 

A good fingering or bowing is helpful, a bad one is annoying. 


2. Again different schools of thought on this. In general, strings prefer sharps and wind/brass flats. 
So..... don't write in a shit key. That is probably the first thing to say. No pieces in B major for Brass. Just move down a half step. 

For studio recording I would "in general" say: Avoid double flats or sharps. Use the enharmonic. 
Same with B#, or Fb etc. 

The two other aspects I look at are: avoiding augmented and diminished intervals (Not as a compositional sonority, but things like Db to F#) 

The other is to pick aside for that one bar. Use either sharps or flats. You can switch fast, from bar to bar, but it's generally cleaner to pick one. (this only applies to the single part. No need to notate transposing winds in sharps because you did so with strings. This touches on transposing scores vs. concert) Sometimes you can't, but again "in general"

Finally, know that key signatures are not used in film scores. Let me add on: Don't be an assclown and leave a key signature in place and put naturals everywhere. I've seen a four-note D major chord with 4 accidentals. 3 naturals, and one sharp. It looks far more difficult than needed.

_There must be some standard how big the note should be, how many bars on a A4 page etc._

3. Finally, yes there is a convention. Dorico in particular already automates this for you. A good exercise is taking a few pages from scores and typesetting them. Use them as models. You'll find some that appeal to your senses more than others. Film scores went thru a phase of avoiding wings on brackets...... I went along but never cared for it myself. 

I found the old-school pencil books the best for understanding the philosophy of engraving. The Norton manual of music notation was really good for this. Gardner Read had a book too that was really interesting, however, a number of his ideas never caught on. (ie. avoiding ties with longer note durations; So double dotted half note to 8th instead of half tied to dotted quarter to 8th)


Hope that helps. Again, it's an art and a science. I would not personally notate my parts like the "Before long" in the video. However, nothing is "wrong". It's simply a subjective idea of what creates clarity, avoids questions and mistakes, and ideally just let's the musicians do their magic.


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## JT (Jul 19, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> You may also want to look for a digital download of the Clinton Roemer Music Copying book. I'd say just to buy it, obviously, but last I knew it is out of print. Some of it is a bit dated or unnecessary since just about everyone uses computer notation now, but most of it provides a good sense of standards for studio parts (beaming over rests, formatting, and other stuff). For uniform chord notation standards, if you need that, the Brandt/Roemer book is excellent.


Yes, I learned from this book back in the stone age. (1970's) I literally learned more from this book than I did from 4 years in college. This book gave me a career. 

The book tells you how to layout the music on the page. It has to "look" a certain way for studio recording. For music publishers, the goal is to fill up the page with music. For commercial music it's usually 4 measures per staff system. In commercial music you can have just a few staves of music on a page with empty space on the page if this is what works best for page turns. 

Page turns are what you use for any instrument who has to stop playing for a time and turn the page with their free hand. You try to layout the music so there is a rest at the lower right corner of a page.

As has been mentioned, the type of music, venue, etc... will dictate how it should look.


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## Dr. Shagwell (Jul 19, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> Geographical region.


This is a good point. My first time sitting in a recording session in Eastern Europe made me realize that the old Italian terms are still very efficient. We had scored from both North America and Europe. The orchestra spoke mainly Russian. So in North America, I might indicate a bowing in plain English like "At the point" or "At the frog", but certainly not for publication or a different region.

I like Gene's post. In a way, you are like a tailor. 


Gene Pool said:


> Everything related to bowing falls under the aforementioned "it depends on who you ask" category,


Agree.



Gene Pool said:


> Technically correct is slurs = bowing.


True


Gene Pool said:


> Just know that even if you are a string player and your bowings are musical and playable, there is the odd, proud Concertmaster who will change some of it, just to make sure you know who's in charge of bowing


One small adjustment

Just know that even if you are a string player and your bowings are musical and playable, there is the proud Concertmaster who will change some of it, just to make sure you know who's in charge of bowing



Gene Pool said:


> Take violin lessons if necessary.


I agree 100% with the exception of this conclusion. I really admire the intent, and certainly, it does help. I rented a Cello for a year for this exact reason. Everything else Gene wrote is great. 

What I am trying to say is still expect your parts to have different bowings. Ravels get changed all the time. I posted a while back a photo of Mahler's violin part as performed by the NY Philharmonic. There are passages where every single bowing is scratched out. He knew the orchestra too.

A concertmaster would have easily 20 years of training and beat out 100's of people for that spot.
Far better to makes sure the page turn works and the musical intent is clear. 

This is an impossible "grey area" to clear up. Debussy is a great orchestrator but Jeux is not going to survive a rendering by an average high school orchestra.

Any skill acquired gives one an advantage. Those whose principal instrument is a violin, viola, cello etc. of course will have an extra ability to communicate. However you have to have studied for years to even be in the same "ball-park" as a concertmaster. Plus, if you are recording to click, and Brass is FFF..

I admire the intent; it's just a lot of work for a little gain, and most likely the concertmaster is still going to change what you do.


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## JJP (Jul 19, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> For example, scoring stage strings format vs. studio orchestra strings format are _often_ different



What is the difference between scoring stage strings and studio orchestra strings? I guess more to the point, what is the difference between a scoring stage and a studio?


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## OleJoergensen (Jul 20, 2021)

zedmaster said:


> David Christiansen's Sibelius course is amazing (though mostly tailored to Sibelius). He worked on orchestrating AAA video game music for The Witcher 3, The Elder Scrolls Online, Crysis 2 and so many more.
> 
> https://www.david-christiansen.com/courses
> I made a video about it:



Thank you for sharing Kevin.


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## OleJoergensen (Jul 20, 2021)

Dr. Shagwell said:


> Some really good answers here already.
> 
> Let me just offer some additional thoughts that I did not see thus far.
> 
> ...


Thank you Shagwell for taking the time to explain al this!
There is a lot to learn .
I have read or listen to an interview where a string player says “lets us decide the bowing, we know what we are doing”.
Question: bowing and phrashing is not the same…? I mean a phrase can be quite long requring several bow strokes….? 
“Shit keys”…. A string player told me she prefered keys in sharp, an other told me “a good string player can play keys in both sharp and flat” .
I hope/ thinks I will better understand al this when studying the books.


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## OleJoergensen (Jul 20, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> Ole,
> 
> While a lot of notation conforms to a pretty much uniform standard across the board, much of it comes down to: It depends. Or, it depends on who you ask.
> 
> ...


Thank you Gene, to take your time to explain al this!
I can see “correct notation” will take time and experience to learn.


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## Dr. Shagwell (Jul 20, 2021)

OleJoergensen said:


> “Shit keys”…. A string player told me she prefered keys in sharp, an other told me “a good string player can play keys in both sharp and flat” .



Well, now we are into orchestration. This question is a good example of how hard it is to write with clarity about these issues. Some quick points I hope will add a little clarity

I originally was referring to pieces that stay within a single poor choice key, and not music that modulates frequently. 

Here is an example I have seen a few times. A guitar player orchestrates their piece in E major. 
It's a good key for guitar. Lots of open strings. 

Instruments like clarinet or Bb trumpet will have to read the piece in F# major. What I am suggesting is provided there is not some other integral musical reason (ie. no guitar in the piece, rather the music is orchestrated from the guitar) it is highly recommended to review my quote of "_I think above all clarity, correctness and efficiency are the most important."_

If the piece is transposed down a half step, everyone has one less accidental, and the Bb instruments go from F# major to F major. 

As a piano player which would you prefer? Can you play in both. Of course. Is one more familiar. Of course. Don't forget the power of muscle memory.

There are other factors involved and are as psychological as they are physical. 

So I am saying sometimes it's a barter decision. It might save you 5 or 10 minutes of studio time. 

Lastly, at some point later on you'll learn about a term called sympathetic resonance.



OleJoergensen said:


> I hope/ thinks I will better understand al this when studying the books.


I highly recommend you attend some rehearsals. Ideally, bring along the scores to what they are playing.


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## OleJoergensen (Jul 20, 2021)

Dr. Shagwell said:


> Well, now we are into orchestration. This question is a good example of how hard it is to write with clarity about these issues. Some quick points I hope will add a little clarity
> 
> I originally was referring to pieces that stay within a single poor choice key, and not music that modulates frequently.
> 
> ...


Thank you for clarifying Shagwell. 
F# is a lovely key to play on a piano but bit of a pain to read (at least for me ). But I understand now what you meant.


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## JJP (Jul 20, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> Different scoring targets = different approaches and standards very often to best fit the purpose.


I see what you are saying. This is a bit academic and there often isn't much distinction between the two in my experience. Scoring stages are just big studios built on film/TV lots that can hold a full symphony orchestra. (You can look through my profile to get an idea of my background. I won't go into it here.)

The notation itself usually isn't different, and the score layout is merely a function of whatever is needed for a particular project or even individual cue/song/whatever, but usually reflecting standard conventions of score order.

However, as mentioned a few times in other posts, there is a difference between musician parts created for classical publishing and studio recordings. That's because studio recordings typically do not have advance rehearsals so the parts are optimized for sight reading. For that reason there are a number of things in the example from @Rodney Money that would not be acceptable if the part was being prepared for a recording session. (That's not to disrespect Rodney, just to show that there are different standards.)

I've had studio musicians tell me that part of why they read so well is because we create parts that make reading extremely easy. They go back to playing their symphony gigs and start to question their skills because the parts are so much harder to read.


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## Rodney Money (Jul 20, 2021)

JJP said:


> I see what you are saying. This is a bit academic and there often isn't much distinction between the two in my experience. Scoring stages are just big studios built on film/TV lots that can hold a full symphony orchestra. (You can look through my profile to get an idea of my background. I won't go into it here.)
> 
> The notation itself usually isn't different, and the score layout is merely a function of whatever is needed for a particular project or even individual cue/song/whatever, but usually reflecting standard conventions of score order.
> 
> ...





JJP said:


> I see what you are saying. This is a bit academic and there often isn't much distinction between the two in my experience. Scoring stages are just big studios built on film/TV lots that can hold a full symphony orchestra. (You can look through my profile to get an idea of my background. I won't go into it here.)
> 
> The notation itself usually isn't different, and the score layout is merely a function of whatever is needed for a particular project or even individual cue/song/whatever, but usually reflecting standard conventions of score order.
> 
> ...


I’ve never been so pissed off in my life here at V.I. I posted that there NOT to show what musicians are supposed to read but to show you I know the rules of engraving so well I can even go beyond making it art, so feel free to ask me anything concerning engraving sheet music and scores for live musicians. Look at my 2nd example. That’s what they would read. I live this world of live musicians everyday.


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## MauroPantin (Jul 20, 2021)

I think it was pretty obvious that that was an artistic choice and a cool thing to show off skills (mad props, btw!).

Standards differ everywhere, LA to NY to London it's all different small idiosyncrasies and details. Live work vs studio, and even in studio there's differences between film work and games or traditional recordings. There's a lot to unpack there. Once you have the basics, most of that other stuff is taught colloquially from a colleague and/or you just learn by experience, really. I still cringe every time I remember making a fool of myself when pointing out that there was a "huge oversight" (my exact words, regrettably) because there were no key signatures on a film score on one of my first gigs. Ughh.


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## JJP (Jul 20, 2021)

Rodney Money said:


> Look at my 2nd example. That’s what they would read. I live this world of live musicians everyday.


Hi Rodney, I apologize for making you angry. I was actually referring to your second example, hence the link to it in my post. I did not mean it as an insult, rather as a way to illustrate the difference in approach when creating parts for recording or situations where the musicians do not have the opportunity to see the music beforehand. There are many things in common classical parts that are not considered acceptable for parts prepared for recording.


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## synergy543 (Jul 20, 2021)

JJP said:


> There are many things in common classical parts that are not considered acceptable for parts prepared for recording.


Are these things listed in any of the references cited above? (i.e. Gould, Roemer, etc.). Where is the best place for a student to learn such scoring subtleties?


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## JJP (Jul 20, 2021)

The Gould book is a great start. I learned most of what I know by working under experienced copyists. Much of it is about developing a sense of how things work best through years of doing it with guidance.


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## Dr. Shagwell (Jul 20, 2021)

Rodney Money said:


> I’ve never been so pissed off in my life here at V.I. I posted that there NOT to show what musicians are supposed to read but to show you I know the rules of engraving so well I can even go beyond making it art, so feel free to ask me anything concerning engraving sheet music and scores for live musicians. Look at my 2nd example. That’s what they would read. I live this world of live musicians everyday.



You kinda shot yourself in the foot. Personally, I found the following two comments pretty disrespectful. 



Rodney Money said:


> Happy now?





Rodney Money said:


> Listen here brother



Both came across to me as a Southern-style "Bless your heart". Which is a polite way to say F-you.

Robin is too nice to say this, but he has been a top-notch professional orchestrator for years. From the London Symphony to about everywhere in Europe I am sure has 100's of hours of orchestral recording experience. As do others who have posted including myself. So "CV" slinging is pointless. 
His work is excellent, and it seemed disrespectful to pull the "Listen here brother"




Rodney Money said:


> so feel free to ask me anything concerning engraving sheet music and scores for live musicians.



I think the OP would like to hear your thoughts on his questions to you. You were asked direct questions and still have not answered a single one. 


Talking about the subject will get you warmer replies.


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## NoamL (Jul 20, 2021)

The best thing to do is hire a professional. Orchestration should be done by an orchestrator and parts should be done by a copyist.

Scoring stage parts have conventions which differ considerably from classical music.

Some differences I've noticed include:

1. No key signature is printed, instead they notate every accidental . Cautionary accidentals are used generously.
2. bars per system and systems per page are MUCH sparser than classical music. It indeed looks like "beginner music notation" sometimes.
3. tempo indications note the change from the last tempo: if you go from ♩=120 to 130, the second indication will usually be ♩=130 [+10]

you can imagine that all 3 of these conventions evolved because they help the orchestra perform more usable material on the 1st take, which after all costs just as much money, as all the other takes...

Note, these are not "tips" you should follow because *I* am not a copyist. I don't know if they are universal rules. The point is: you should hire a copyist


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## OleJoergensen (Jul 21, 2021)

NoamL said:


> The best thing to do is hire a professional. Orchestration should be done by an orchestrator and parts should be done by a copyist.
> 
> Scoring stage parts have conventions which differ considerably from classical music.
> 
> ...


Thank you Noaml.

Using a professional copyist, I must remember that. As I understand now, from the great inputs in this thread , a copyist is capable of translating a written score so it fits well for a spicific orchestra in a specific location- country/ State. Using a copyist will probably safe time and headache .

Im a bit confused about what an orchestrator exactly does….?
When composing an symphonic orchestra composition a great part of this, and also maybe the must fun part, is to orchestrate. So handing over a score to an orchestrator, what is his/her job to do?
And orchestrator check that everything is notate right for the different instruments?


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## MauroPantin (Jul 21, 2021)

OleJoergensen said:


> Thank you Noaml.
> 
> Using a professional copyist, I must remember that. As I understand now, from the great inputs in this thread , a copyist is capable of translating a written score so it fits well for a spicific orchestra in a specific location- country/ State. Using a copyist will probably safe time and headache .
> 
> ...


I think the proper answer here is it depends on the composer. The title is "Orchestrator" but that's not necessarily what you are doing, copyist and orchestrators can be and usually are very much interlinked.

Some composers will hand you a completed score that is fully orchestrated with a few shorthands for notation to save time while writing (like a short score, or sometimes a full score with text notes regarding doublings, it depends on who you're working with), and in that case it just needs some cleanup and proof-reading.

Other people will hand you a Sibelius file, almost ready. Only needs proofing, and then for setting up for publishing and printing using whatever style guide they need. 

Other times you get handed an audio file of a mockup and a MIDI file. And sometimes that MIDI file uses a patch from a library that has some one-note pre-recorded tutti hit or woodwind run, or (god forbid) an Albion IV aleatoric full orchestral gesture. Then your job is to de-construct the audio using the MIDI as a guide back into notation, fleshing out the intent of the composer so that it plays back faithfully when performed live.


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## OleJoergensen (Jul 21, 2021)

MauroPantin said:


> I think the proper answer here is it depends on the composer. The title is "Orchestrator" but that's not necessarily what you are doing, copyist and orchestrators can be and usually are very much interlinked.
> 
> Some composers will hand you a completed score that is fully orchestrated with a few shorthands for notation to save time while writing (like a short score, or sometimes a full score with text notes regarding doublings, it depends on who you're working with), and in that case it just needs some cleanup and proof-reading.
> 
> ...


Thank you explaining Mauro.
The last example sounds like a hard work for the orchestrator…


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## MauroPantin (Jul 21, 2021)

OleJoergensen said:


> The last example sounds like a hard work for the orchestrator…


Yep, that's what the money's for, lol! I kid, though, it's a rewarding job if you like notation. I really enjoy the aesthetics of the music on a page. The only thing I would change are the insane deadlines, but those are par for the course for everyone involved almost every step of the way.


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## JJP (Jul 21, 2021)

NoamL said:


> 1. No key signature is printed, instead they notate every accidental...
> <snip>
> 3. tempo indications note the change from the last tempo: if you go from ♩=120 to 130, the second indication will usually be ♩=130 [+10]


I'm going to jump on my soapbox here because these two are issues I've been fighting for years and the internet has only made them worse. This will be somewhat long, but I think it's worth discussing and I happen to have a little time. (And yes, I've said this here before, so some long-time members will have to bear with me.)

*Point #1 - The idea that key signatures should never be used in film/tv/studio recordings is a myth.* This seems to have come from some misunderstandings that have been amplified via internet and a few teachers who push this falsehood.

Much film music doesn't settle in a key. In these cases key sigs become cumbersome because they change so often and it forces the player to constantly remember the key of the moment. This is when it is best to avoid key signatures. It seems that people have looked at these scores and assumed that this means key sigs should never be used in studio situations. I've even heard some people say, "Studio musicians hate key signatures." This is incorrect. These musicians read key signatures all the time. Many of these people also play in orchestras and other groups where they see key sigs every day. I've also heard studio musicians rant, "It's clearly in the key of X! Why do people think we can't read $%@& key signatures?"

If the music is clearly within a key, then key signatures are very helpful. Here's a real world example: I had a very skilled, experienced arranger friend participate in one of those studio conducting workshops here in LA. As part of the process, they had to submit an original chart which they were going to conduct. He submitted a film-style cue that started in Bb then modulated to B-natural, then modulated to Ab.

Before the session, the reviewer told him the only problem with the score was that it had key signatures and they should be removed because that's not what studio musicians want to see. Being experienced, he refused because it would have been a terrible idea that made the parts very hard to read. There were three main reasons:

No key sigs would have made it less clear where the modulations were. These were major tonal shifts in the cue.
B-major would have a required an accidental on nearly every note on the staff which would have created a lot of distracting visual noise and obscured the note spacing in every bar which is important for reading rhythm. (Note spacing is a whole other discussion.)
The piece was largely diatonic, but had lots of accidentals. Removing key sigs would have made it less clear which pitches were outside the key and made the tonality even less clear to the performers. (Different keys lie differently and can have a different "feel" on instruments.)
The recording went very well and afterwards the musicians gave feedback to each of the conductors. Aside from conducting feedback, the musicians THANKED HIM FOR USING KEY SIGNATURES because it made the music much easier to read.

I've worked in this business for years as both an orchestrator and copyist and see key signatures all the time in studio parts. There is no reason to always eliminate key signatures as a matter of practice. It depends on the musical situation. Sadly, eliminating key sigs from the score has become an unquestioned norm for many people even when it makes performing more difficult for musicians.

*Point #3 (tempo differences) - Don't ask players to do math while they are trying to perform. *Those numbers come from computer thinking, not from a musician perspective. That number after the tempo doesn't help much for a variety of reasons. First, that "+30" or "-10" doesn't tell you anything about how great the tempo change is. For a very slow tempo like 50 bpm, +10 bpm means the tempo is now 20% faster -- a significant change. At 200 bpm, +10 is only a 5% faster -- noticeable, but nowhere near 20%. However, both tempo changes are shown as "+10". In the middle of sight reading the performer now has to decide whether that is a large or small change in tempo.

Furthermore, before a performer can even make that calculation, the performer must remember the exact tempo they are currently playing before they can do the math. The last tempo indication may have been on a previous page. No performer keeps thinking "I'm at 127 bpm" the whole time they are playing. This also is why giving only a bpm at a tempo change can be less helpful than a text indication. ("The new tempo is ♩=134, but what tempo am I coming from?")

What are useful to a performing musician are common musical indications like 

"Allegro ♩= 130" or "Poco Meno Mosso ♩= 98" -- These give both musical information for the performer and a bpm reference that may be all important for others in the studio. The performer may only process the text part when sight-reading. They will follow the conductor or click to get the precise amount.
"Poco Piu Mosso" or "A little faster"
"Allargando" or "Slower, heavier"
"meno mosso", "presto", "gradually slowing", "accel. poco a poco", etc.
These may not be precise from a mathematical standpoint, but to a performer it is a single indication that instantly tells them what they need to know. Often they don't care about the exact bpm, they just want to know if it is faster, much slower, more lively, etc. We musicians tend to think in relative terms when performing.


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## MauroPantin (Jul 21, 2021)

JJP said:


> Sadly, eliminating key sigs from the score has become an unquestioned norm for many people even when it makes performing more difficult for musicians.


I think it has become so because we've reached of some sort of shitty "Nash equilibrium" and there's enough critical mass among the biz that now it just repeats itself. I agree with you on the reasoning and on the fact that taking them out should not be the de-facto option. 

Having said that, and to my point, for film scores I'd say that of the times I leave them in, probably 75% of those times it comes back with a revision note to take them out because someone down the line is pushing back on the key sigs (funny how the pushback never comes from one of the musicians or the concert master). The scores go through so many sets of eyes that the odds of someone bringing this up are, much like Thanos, inevitable.


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## Robin (Jul 21, 2021)

JJP said:


> Point #3 (tempo differences) - Don't ask players to do math while they are trying to perform.


I think there are two sides to this. I totally agree that large tempo shifts don't make a lot of sense to notate that way, so it's relatively useless to write something like (+20) or (-42) behind a tempo mark. I however made the experience that on small tempo changes, these marks are indeed appreciated by the players. Seeing a tempo change like ♩=104(+2) will make sure that players don't "freak out" over the tempo change and suddenly start to play much faster or much slower before they find their way back into the click. It might however create a similar effect to use verbal instructions as you wrote above but they seem to be less common in the session world.


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## NoamL (Jul 21, 2021)

See? This is why we should all hire the copyist 

Thanks @JJP !


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