# Does the marketing hype behind sample libraries sometimes make you tired?



## NYC Composer (Aug 14, 2014)

I've bought a little bit from practically all the bigger developers and lots of smaller ones, so I'm on a lot of mailing lists as I'm sure many of you are. It's not that I mind the notifications of new products, not at all. Actually I tend to haunt the Commercial section for new stuff.

What makes me a little weary is the overselling. Whether it's "we're extremely passionate about what we do" or "no one has ever done this before" or "we have extended the round robins to an infinite number" or "we have hired golden-eared (name here) to engineer these sessions" or "we built an 80 million dollar opera house to create ambiences never heard before" or "we have flown to the planet Malthusia to record alien voices", it's always bolder, bigger, better, more ethically praiseworthy or whatnot.

Look, I get it. It's marketing. If you can't sell it, you can't get paid, you can't do more good work, baby doesn't get that new pair of shoes. Marketing stokes the engine of commerce. The sale of goods makes the world go 'round. I'm all for that. I just wonder, does it get a little much for ya sometimes?


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## Carbs (Aug 14, 2014)

Yep. 

It's like toilet paper, every year it's like they finally invented the best rear end wiper material you ever heard of.


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## anp27 (Aug 14, 2014)

Yes, but hey, it's marketing.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 14, 2014)

Carbs @ Thu Aug 14 said:


> Yep.
> 
> It's like toilet paper, every year it's like they finally invented the best rear end wiper material you ever heard of.



Well, not really- sample development has made tremendous, palpable strides over recent years.


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## gsilbers (Aug 14, 2014)

hate marketing but for all products. the only one i actally pay attention to is music related products. 
but watching a tv commercial of a family in a nice house with a white picket fence and a yard etc etc of how things "should be" and to have "this hapiness you need X" i go ballistic. i just yell at the tv.. bullshit!! 

anyways.. sample library marketing is ok-ish.. the only one ive complained before is the east west eternal "sales" of 70% off on libraries.... for the last like 10 years?!?! i think there is a seinfiled joke were everyone in the neighborhood knows the furniture store in the corner has always sales, but everyone know its the same price always. 
the EW sales are also all thet time, so you just wait for the next month sale for an extra %off. 

also the spitfire stuff... i just dont get it. nice artistry and "vibe" but i just dont know exactly what they are selling. its not clear and i find more info randomly on this forums than on their site.


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## Carbs (Aug 14, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Thu Aug 14 said:


> Carbs @ Thu Aug 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Yep.
> ...



So has tp....no more left behinds!!


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## Rv5 (Aug 14, 2014)

The worst for me was EastWest having this virtual box:

http://www.soundsonline.com/SOL2013/images/product_page_banner_Hollywood-Orchestral-Woodwinds.png (http://www.soundsonline.com/SOL2013/ima ... dwinds.png)

advertising their product, just for customers to get sent this box:

http://blog-imgs-56.fc2.com/f/u/k/fukutoshin/528.jpg

The implications being big regarding the nature and quality of the product which would have otherwise informed a buying decision.


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## RiffWraith (Aug 14, 2014)

Carbs @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> It's like toilet paper


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## Carbs (Aug 14, 2014)

:lol: 

Please tell me they make that in a 2 ply!


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## JohnG (Aug 14, 2014)

gsilbers @ 14th August 2014 said:


> a family in a nice house with a white picket fence and a yard etc etc of how things "should be" and to have "this hapiness you need X" i go ballistic. i just yell at the tv.. [email protected]#t!!



Now, now. You just need some Happy Pills and it will all be super-duper.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 14, 2014)

I really really don't want this question to be answered with "xxx developer did this and that" and thereby turn into a dev bashfest. I am in awe of the skills that many developers possess. Please, gentle readers, if you would be kind enough to express your _general_ feeling about this matter. 

For example, and this is just me, I am generally intrigued when I am UNDERSOLD and subsequent word of mouth is good. Naked demos that are impressive and more indicative of the tone and qualities of a product than the skills of the player/writer sell me better than incredibly well fashioned, amazingly well played and orchestrated full on demos.


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## marclawsonmusic (Aug 14, 2014)

Of course, it makes me tired too. All marketing makes me tired.

However, I think it's fair to say that this industry as a whole is fairly new. And the tech is changing so fast that I'm sure it's hard for all the devs to keep up.

In 10 years, we will likely be able to stream thousands of voices from $30 SSD drives using modeling algorithms that require quantum computing processors... which will also likely cost only $30 at that time.

Still, there will always be "*the next best thing* TM".

And then a solar flare will come and wipe out all electronics and we will be forced back to pencil and paper.

So, the lesson here, really... is to study orchestration.


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## Dr.Quest (Aug 14, 2014)

I actually find topics like this one very tiring. I don't have a clue as to what it is you are trying to accomplish. Make certain developers feel bad about what they do? Or how they promote it? Why? Why would you want this? I don't get it at all.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 14, 2014)

Dr.Quest @ Thu Aug 14 said:


> I actually find topics like this one very tiring. I don't have a clue as to what it is you are trying to accomplish. Make certain developers feel bad about what they do? Or how they promote it? Why? Why would you want this? I don't get it at all.



Thank you for your quizzical comment  Did you want an actual reply, or did you just want to express your feelings about the topic I raised?


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## Daryl (Aug 15, 2014)

I tend to gloss over the hype these days because most of it is nonsense.

*String writing has changed*. No it hasn't. 

*The next generation of virtual instruments*. No, it's more of the same.

*Get the Hollywood sound*. There's no such thing.

It just goes on and on. I really can't be bothered with any of this any more, so I guess that I'm tired of it as well. :wink: 

D


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## Synesthesia (Aug 15, 2014)




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## NYC Composer (Aug 15, 2014)

Daryl @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> I tend to gloss over the hype these days because most of it is nonsense.
> 
> *String writing has changed*. No it hasn't.
> 
> ...



This.

As I said, overselling tends to undersell me these days. I thought it might be a good idea to see if mine is a purely personal opinion or one that's more generally held. My real hope is to help developers refine their marketing approaches (if they need any refining). I also wonder if people's different outlooks on this breaks down into age groups.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 15, 2014)

Synesthesia @ Fri Aug 15 said:


>



Hahaha! So right! and yet....


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## FriFlo (Aug 15, 2014)

It is that is just the world we live in today. I am annoyed by it, too! But I guess psychology tells them, this really works on the human brain, therefore you cannot blame them, if it really does. It would be interesting to see, what would happen, if someone would release a product like this:
"Guys, we have recorded and edited a new string library. It's called String Library 78. We had noise and squeaks on some of the sustains, but there was no budget left to redo them, unfortunately. Also some tuning issues, but we don't want to edit the samples, because it would be expensive. Over all it has a decent sound, so we think it is quite a valuable addition to your current library. We also tried some new articulations, that have probably been done before, but it gives you another choice. Please buy it!"

I think I would have to buy such an honest library!


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## Jdiggity1 (Aug 15, 2014)

I'm with you Larry. To the point where I don't even take notice of posts by the developer's themselves, and look straight to user demos and walkthroughs.
I figure that's what actually sells the products isn't it? If the product is good, people will rave about it on their own accord.


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## eric aron (Aug 15, 2014)

marketing is just one of the distorted and regular ways into which our human community has slowly gone. difference between need and desire. difference between reality and illusion. difference between truth and lie. two different paths, two different results. marketing is based on lie. to trigger a desire to have something that is most of the times not needed.

how many libraries, plugs in, synths, will we wish to have in order to write good music? and what is good music? the one submitted itself to marketing criterias?

this world has chosen the way of lie, because of the masses lazy complicity to the money/power making strategy from the very few clever. this won’t change in short times, the situation being as for now still on an increasing slope. even Pareto law is to be revised, the ratio should be more close to 95/5. 95% of all produced things, including in the core our thoughts, words and acts, are for nothing, pure waste. remains 5% useful. 

feel tired? then turn off all marketing windows, go to resource in nature, play one acoustic instrument, stop falling in the everlasting ’new and better’ trap, clean up the xxx libraries on the shelf that never were really useful, pure waste of money, and restart fresh with new life ethics and actions. then should arrive a more coherent and simple path, assorted with better results

complaining is the first step. changing the mind schemes and acting on a more free and creative way is a second harder step. then the inspiration window can open

inspiration comes from a level that is not connected to marketing


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## Luca Capozzi (Aug 15, 2014)

there are so many ways to do marketing and, some of them, includes hype. Personally, I prefer a direct and "minimal" kind of marketing.. to tell what a customer can do with my products instead of hyping features or "fellings". Maybe that's why when I buy a product my first question is "what I can do with that?" and, by reflection, I guess this is what a potential customer is asking himself when receives my newsletter or read my press releases. 

My 2 cents.

Cheers,
Luca


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## Stephen Rees (Aug 15, 2014)

Yes, the hype does make me tired. It has the opposite effect on me actually than its intention.

That's my general feeling about this matter 

(This message was sent by a busy working forum contributor, using some of the finest fonts in Britain, curated in a grade 2 listed building situated in some of the most picturesque lands that Great Britain has to offer).


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## NYC Composer (Aug 15, 2014)

eric aron @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> marketing is just one of the distorted and regular ways into which our human community has slowly gone. difference between need and desire. difference between reality and illusion. difference between truth and lie. two different paths, two different results. marketing is based on lie. to trigger a desire to have something that is most of the times not needed.
> 
> how many libraries, plugs in, synths, will we wish to have in order to write good music? and what is good music? the one submitted itself to marketing criterias?
> 
> ...



....which doesn't mean a great sample library can't provide inspiration. I've gotten plenty of inspiration from some-but I write songs with an acoustic guitar and my mediocre voice- or more rarely a piano (sample).

Your feelings about this are interesting, but I'm not sure they're to the point. Marketing isn't going away, nor do I think it should. I opened with the way I feel about the present styles of marketing sample libraries, and I'm questioning the effectiveness of that burgeoning style of marketing in a specific, sensitive and small niche market. I am making no blanket statements about how things "should" be. I started the topic because I'm generally curious how others feel.


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## pmountford (Aug 15, 2014)

I treat the marketing hype on a company by company basis. I do feel though that they have to be enthused themselves by what they're creating. I just have to decide whether it's honest or BS and this I don't feel you really know until you've bought a product or two from the developer to make your own mind up.

There are examples on this forum of developers underselling their libraries and I've only stumbled on their products from other comments on this forum which is equally frustrating because you wonder how many other unheard of products there are out there. Likewise I've been burnt (as I'm sure most of us have) and taken in by the hype which makes me think twice when I listen to developers demos to work out how much of the product I'm buying I'm listening too and how much of that is made of phrase based loops..

So in my case I treat each developer individually and am really not bothered at all by the 'sales pitch'.


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## markwind (Aug 15, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> I really really don't want this question to be answered with "xxx developer did this and that" and thereby turn into a dev bashfest. I am in awe of the skills that many developers possess. Please, gentle readers, if you would be kind enough to express your _general_ feeling about this matter.



Lovely nuanced sentiment - as you notice not everyone picks up on that . And who knows it might end up helping Dev's marketing on this forum. And I actually do think it's regularly a little over the top. But at the same time, I've learned that that's the way, there's only three things that sway me; What I hear, What I see (videos) and what other people mention about it (if they are articulate about it).

But what gets me curious is simply the product itself, only in a very limited capacity does the presentation grab me. I do feel annoyed by over the top adverts, but if it's from a Dev I know and like I still go and look what the fuss is about. But that's all it does, it never sways me, only the above three factors do that for me. 


I consider it a bad professional standard to be lead by a sense of hype in terms of what I consider a worthwhile investment - for me personally that is.


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 15, 2014)

eric aron @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> how many libraries, plugs in, synths, will we wish to have in order to write good music?



Ha ha - and therein lies the rub. Most of us are on the look out for new tools to fix some perceived weakness in our arsenal (it's never our tatty talent of course). We swallow the marketing hype, buy the shiny new tool only to discover that yes although it is great at A, B and C, its actually also got problems D, E and F which we never had before. So now we need another shiny new product that fixes those, and gives us new problems etc etc etc.

It has been observed before here that most product launches go through the phases of initial interest mounting to fever pitch excitement as everyone replies to the developer updates like "back from Native Instruments coding and I gotta tell you my ears have never heard anything so phenomenal in my entire life" with o=? _-) o=? _-) o=? and whip themselves into a frenzy, then "RELEASED!!!!!", then about 18 hours of "wow the servers are slammed I'm downloading at 1k per year" then "wow it's the most incredible thing ever posts"... and then the swing back happens as people actually start to use the thing and start finding problems with it. Often the same product which right after launch was Virtual Instrument 2.0 is unusable worthless junk 3 days later. How much is the fault of the marketeers - who in this case are usually the developers themselves who have lovingly nurtured their creation for months or years, sinking vast resources of time and money into it, into a releasable form, or how much are us saps for falling for the over-optimistic pronouncements again and again?

There's a lot to be said for being cautious and waiting. Opening sale bargains work against this, especially those that are strictly pre-release. Perhaps if we learned to be more philosophical and accept paying a bit more only for those products that have stood the test of time, we'd be better off.

So in answer to the OP - yes. And as each year goes by, the more tiring it becomes. But I can't blame them. I think its rare that a developer thinks to themselves "wow I have a sack-o-crap on my hands here, I'm gonna have to really work hard to whip people up into a frenzy before they figure it out". Apart from Native Instruments (who, bless them, seem to never give info before release at all), all the companies we deal with are pretty small, and the majority hang out here to back and forth with us. They - typically - are super-excited about the precious babies they have nurtured, and moreover have probably already used it to create amazing music - it works for them pretty much always because they designed it after all. And then they get upset when it doesn't work for a user who goes online to vent, but that's another subject.

See, I sound all philosophical now, but I'm the first person to yell "COME ON ERIC PERSING GIVE US JUST A CLUE WILL YA?!!!" every two months or so. In my defence, possibly cos Spectrasonics are one of the few companies that, for me (your mileage my vary), always always deliver....


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## woodsdenis (Aug 15, 2014)

The phrase " deep sampled " is the hype buzzword that annoys me the most. Certainly on this forum the members contribute to the hysteria as much as the developers do. 

Also obvious hype can kill a product, a couple of years ago there was Kontakt library from a small dev that was claimed could literally create the track with new inspirational auto generated melodies. It was priced at $1k ish. You are dealing with a reasonably educated bunch here and it was very quickly torn apart. TBH I can't remember the name of it, the price was quickly reduced and I haven't seen or heard of it since. Hype can work both ways.


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## Allegro (Aug 15, 2014)

RiffWraith @ Thu Aug 14 said:


> Carbs @ Fri Aug 15 said:
> 
> 
> > It's like toilet paper


We escaped the gravity and went to space to bring you this toilet paper. What a ballsy attempt of marketing.


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## AC986 (Aug 15, 2014)

woodsdenis @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> The phrase " deep sampled " is the hype buzzword that annoys me the most.



:lol: :lol: :lol: 

That's the one that always gets me. I start thinking rude thoughts about deep sampling a fart and where you would stick the microphone.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 15, 2014)

adriancook @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> woodsdenis @ Fri Aug 15 said:
> 
> 
> > The phrase " deep sampled " is the hype buzzword that annoys me the most.
> ...



makes me think of Coleridge-

"Where Alph the sacred river ran
Through caverns measureless to man
Down to a sunless sea."

Them musta been some DEEPLY sampled caverns...


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## MichaelL (Aug 15, 2014)

Daryl @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> I tend to gloss over the hype these days because most of it is nonsense.
> 
> *String writing has changed*. No it hasn't.
> 
> ...




+1 

My skepticism, regarding the instruments being hyped, tends to rise in proportion to the hype.
As a result, I look at the instrument more closely, and ask myself if I really need the product.

In tandem with hype is the seeming release of new instruments every month, by some libraries.
I've stopped paying attention, and become more committed to working with what I already have.

These days I mostly look at the "commercial announcements" page to see if anything that I already want is on sale.


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## MichaelL (Aug 15, 2014)

woodsdenis @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> The phrase " deep sampled " is the hype buzzword that annoys me the most. Certainly on this forum the members contribute to the hysteria as much as the developers do.




Careful Denis, you're flirting with being banned. :lol:


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## Pietro (Aug 15, 2014)

I'm especially allergic to any advertisement with word "epic" in it. A couple of years ago, a certain developer has been releasing some "Epic -put your random drum name here-" library every couple of months. Heck, they all sounded completely the same.

I also tend to not look into developers who release too much, and everytime it's engineered or designed by someone fameous (that I usually never heard of anyway). This makes me feel kinda small, and I almost feel bad for not knowing those fameous, and apparently incredibly important people from the industry. Nothing personal to Spitfire, I'm actually thinking about jumping on their woodwinds wagon, they have some great sounds, but seriously, 50% of the time I visit VI control, there is a new Spitfire library in the Commercial section. I don't buy these on impulse. I really need to grow up to them and justify the purchase. Not only because I feel I'm being forced them down my throat (because of the frequency of them being published or talked about), but also because I know if I go that route, I will be buying more, to match sound etc.

- Piotr


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## Stephen Rees (Aug 15, 2014)

MichaelL @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> My skepticism, regarding the instruments being hyped, tends to rise in proportion to the hype.
> As a result, I look at the instrument more closely, and ask myself if I really need the product.
> 
> In tandem with hype is the seeming release of new instruments every month, by some libraries.
> I've stopped paying attention, and become more committed to working with what I already have.



Well put


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## MichaelL (Aug 15, 2014)

Pietro @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> I'm especially allergic to any advertisement with word "epic" in it. /quote]
> 
> 
> But....isn't THAT the "Hollywood Sound?"


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## AC986 (Aug 15, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> adriancook @ Fri Aug 15 said:
> 
> 
> > woodsdenis @ Fri Aug 15 said:
> ...



makes me think of IBS.

Boy, you're really well read Larry! Coleridge ay? You'll have to go on a pilgrimage to Ottery St Mary one day.


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## woodsdenis (Aug 15, 2014)

MichaelL @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> woodsdenis @ Fri Aug 15 said:
> 
> 
> > The phrase " deep sampled " is the hype buzzword that annoys me the most. Certainly on this forum the members contribute to the hysteria as much as the developers do.
> ...



/\~O


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## woodsdenis (Aug 15, 2014)

I think DJ's videos were great for leveling the hype to an extent, a real life example of how a library worked at work. However he seemed to annoy a few devs. I think I watched them all and he never gave a bad review, he seems to have stopped doing it now unfortunately. Actually Guy Rowland's ones were very good too, you can't unfortunately expect working composers to do this all the time.


Lets be honest some libraries will just hype themselves, the HZ perc springs to mind. With the mixing talent involved its going to be special. Alan Meyerson and Steve Lipson are at the very top of the tree IMO. I actually don't have the library, but if I remember at the time some buyers thought it was going to sound like the hyper processed "Heavyocity "sound, but in fact the original version was really well recorded natural cinematic percussion. Which leads me onto, "Epic" is in the composition and not only the sound or indeed the name.


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## dryano (Aug 15, 2014)

Marketing is like religious delusion: The bigger the words, the more they promise, the less you really get from the product they want to sell.

At the moment, there are two big sample companies, who are really professional and succesfull with that strategy. One is partly loved and partly hated here and the other one is already idolized by a certain group of this comunity.

Thats fascinating and at the same time disturbing to me... especially how people can love a company, which has a WW2 squadron on their About page.


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## AC986 (Aug 15, 2014)

dryano @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> Thats fascinating and at the same time disturbing to me... especially how people can love a company, which has a WW2 squadron on their About page.



What exactly do you find disturbing about that? For example, in recently held polls, the Spitfire was the biggest icon in Great Britain.


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## Stephen Rees (Aug 15, 2014)

adriancook @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> dryano @ Fri Aug 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Thats fascinating and at the same time disturbing to me... especially how people can love a company, which has a WW2 squadron on their About page.
> ...



If a german developer used a squadron of Messerschmitts to express their 'german-ness', do you think it might cause a few raised eyebrows?


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 15, 2014)

Stephen Rees @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> If a german developer used a squadron of Messerschmitts to express their 'german-ness', do you think it might cause a few raised eyebrows?



Well, yes it probably would, being as the Messerschmitt was as a symbol of the Nazi regime. The Spitfire was one of the planes that fought that regime. Not quite the same thing, surely?

I claim my Godwin's Law prize, right here on page 2.


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## Stephen Rees (Aug 15, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> Stephen Rees @ Fri Aug 15 said:
> 
> 
> > If a german developer used a squadron of Messerschmitts to express their 'german-ness', do you think it might cause a few raised eyebrows?
> ...



They are both symbols of war and death Guy. They are the same thing surely. I don't agree with you. Not at all.


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## AC986 (Aug 15, 2014)

Stephen Rees @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> adriancook @ Fri Aug 15 said:
> 
> 
> > dryano @ Fri Aug 15 said:
> ...



No not at all. Without the Messerschmitts there would be no Spitfires and visa versa probably. In fact, Gunther and I will be doing a mock battle at a soon to be air show using radio controlled Spitfire Mk9's and Messerschmitt 109E's. Real mini canons mounted too. It's going to be all I can do to stop Gunther from strafing the crowd.

What would disturb me more, would be if a German company came out with a sample library and had Angela on the cover. Oh yeah, I would be very disturbed by that.


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## MichaelL (Aug 15, 2014)

Actually, I'm quite surprised that some libraries, in addition to being THE NEXT BIG MUST HAVE THING, don't also market themselves as "gluten free." o[])


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## Synesthesia (Aug 15, 2014)

dryano @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> Marketing is like religious delusion: The bigger the words, the more they promise, the less you really get from the product they want to sell.
> 
> At the moment, there are two big sample companies, who are really professional and succesfull with that strategy. One is partly loved and partly hated here and the other one is already idolized by a certain group of this comunity.
> 
> Thats fascinating and at the same time disturbing to me... especially how people can love a company, which has a WW2 squadron on their About page.



Hi SK,

You may have noticed that between my fascination with flight and aeronautics (I have a BEng (hons) in Aeronautical Engineering from Bristol) and Christian's fascination with old British arcania, photography, and our combined love of engineering ingenuity, there is quite a distinctive design ethos to our site.

The Spitfire for us is a symbol of incredible engineering genius, it has also inspired a popular beer in the UK and is sold in even such far flung places as Los Angeles. :D

If you had tried out some of our BML libraries I would accept, but still not really understand, your criticism.

We do not have a strategy as you have outlined above.

Our strategy is simply to make products that we want to use, and to make them - cutting no corners - as well as we possibly can, and to sell them at a fair price that rewards the musicians and technicians that we work with.

Regards,

Paul


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## Synesthesia (Aug 15, 2014)

MichaelL @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> Actually, I'm quite surprised that some libraries, in addition to being THE NEXT BIG MUST HAVE THING, don't also market themselves as "gluten free." o[])



Our libraries are dairy-free (no cheese) but unfortunately the musicians drink too much beer for us to be allowed legally to claim they are gluten-free...


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## woodsdenis (Aug 15, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> Stephen Rees @ Fri Aug 15 said:
> 
> 
> > If a german developer used a squadron of Messerschmitts to express their 'german-ness', do you think it might cause a few raised eyebrows?
> ...



Well there is such a thing as Godwins Law >8o Amazeballs ( new word in the venerable Oxford Dictionary this year )


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 15, 2014)

Stephen Rees @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> They are both symbols of war and death Guy. They are the same thing surely. I don't agree with you. Not at all.



No, we don't agree, clearly - something that helped defeat one of the greatest evil regimes of the 20th century is fair game to be celebrated, imo. The two icons are clearly not the same much like the target symbol is not equivalent to the swastika.


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## Greg (Aug 15, 2014)

Id rather they put the marketing budget into production. Then the amazing sounds will sell themselves!


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## Stephen Rees (Aug 15, 2014)

Synesthesia @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> The Spitfire for us is a symbol of incredible engineering genius, it has also inspired a popular beer in the UK and is sold in even such far flung places as Los Angeles.



It is also a symbol of war and of British supremacy. At the core of your marketing strategy is the language of British supremacy. That can come across as being very unpalatable, or even offensive. Particularly given our past as 'Empire Builders'.


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## Stephen Rees (Aug 15, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> Stephen Rees @ Fri Aug 15 said:
> 
> 
> > They are both symbols of war and death Guy. They are the same thing surely. I don't agree with you. Not at all.
> ...



I wonder how non-british people feel about it Guy.


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## Marius Masalar (Aug 15, 2014)

Difficult topic.

As much as we'd like to think otherwise, I'm pretty sure the reality is that amazing sounds won't and do not sell themselves. Partly because there are so many sources of them and partly because a general audience wouldn't be able to recognize the difference, nor would two of them share the same definition of what an amazing sound even is.

Frankly I think sample libraries are some of the hardest things to sell and I have great admiration for the developers who manage, to the point where I'm willing to forgive just about any excesses in hype that are necessary to spread the word and break even.

What I'd love to see is some A/B testing that showcases the response to a library with two different marketing approaches—one that is honest and leans on musical demos, and the other that rides the hype train into town. Although, I'm not sure how helpful that would be since I think developers end up having to do BOTH just to stay in the fight and reach all spectrums of composer/producer/etc...lots of demos, walkthrough videos, hyped marketing pages, launch sales...it's a whirlwind.

Interestingly, I think the original Spitfire bespoke series of libraries (which I wasn't fortunate enough to use) were an amazing idea...extremely focused audience with high standards and comfy wallets, allowing for very accurate development parameters, a much more manageable support load, and a guaranteed financial success. It doesn't appeal to the mass market's "everyone deserves every tool" mentality, but there you have it.

Anyway, just my two cents. At the end of the day, the marketing's job is only to bring the product to my attention—from there it's all down to the sound, and no amount of marketing can scrub away a library that doesn't sound the way I need it to. All I need is enough demos/walkthroughs/etc. to show me clearly whether it does or not.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Aug 15, 2014)

Daryl @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> I tend to gloss over the hype these days because most of it is nonsense.
> 
> *String writing has changed*. No it hasn't.
> 
> ...



+1

A while back I got one of those "next generation" woodwind library: worst thing I got in a long time.
The culprit? me

Every company needs a salesman.
Not every salesman is a class act... but sometimes posts like this one can help a company adjust their promotional messages.
Let's hope so!


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## woodsdenis (Aug 15, 2014)

Stephen Rees @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Fri Aug 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Stephen Rees @ Fri Aug 15 said:
> ...



TBH I see a Spitfire as an iconic symbol of Britishness, one which goes back to the end of Empire, Terry Thomas, stiff upper lip etc. I personally don't take a negative out of it, its an icon of a culture more than a plane. I am Irish btw.

http://youtu.be/Pyw4b8LGe9I


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## MichaelL (Aug 15, 2014)

Stephen Rees @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Fri Aug 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Stephen Rees @ Fri Aug 15 said:
> ...



The fighter pane never occurred to me. But I guess the car's name is derived from the plane.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 12_-_2.jpg


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## Carbs (Aug 15, 2014)

Daryl @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> I tend to gloss over the hype these days because most of it is nonsense.
> 
> *String writing has changed*. No it hasn't.
> 
> ...



+1

That's exactly where I was going with my tp analogy. Forums....LOL....


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## Rv5 (Aug 15, 2014)

How can one communicate their passion and excitment of an upcoming release without sounding like 'overselling'?

What distinguishes honest, open responses to common poor-practice, and hyperbole?

If people demand demos, patches, support, explanation and a company marketing policy that suits them, where does that leave developer creative expression and individualism?

How do you balance the pressure of the above while maintaining a business that supports your livelyhood, dreams, vocation and family while continuously under scrutiny in an ever-increasingly populated market?

Are those that are quiet underrated? Are those that are present loud and over-the-top? Will there be an award ceromony for Guy Roland in which he can collect his Godwin's Law medal? If so can I sit at Jennifer Lawrence's table? And can we PLEASE not have the cheesy music found at the Oscars? Also will there be snacks? Otherwise I'm out, J-Law or no J-Law.


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## rgames (Aug 15, 2014)

Hyped marketing is the nature of the beast in a lot of industries, including (especially) the music business. Any market that has little in the way of quantifiable differentiation will rely on hype to sell its products.

Musicians are brands. If Kiss played a set in khakis and golf shirts, they wouldn't get much love, would they? It makes sense that the products they sell to other musicians would be heavily branded, as well. 

There are, of course, industries where branding is less of a factor. Gasoline, for example - nobody cares what brand gasoline he buys. He cares only that it's the cheapest. Functionality is another distinguishing factor that can be used in place of hype - Google doesn't really have a brand following, it has a functionality following.

I just recently re-heard one of my favorite quotes: "If you want to get rich, start a religion." (L. Ron Hubbard, I think) You can't quantify the differences in religions so selling the product requires heavy branding. Same thing in the music world. That's why there are people with Christian bumper stickers and sports bumper stickers and Apple bumper stickers but nobody with a Google bumper sticker or an Exxon bumper sticker.

rgames


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## bbunker (Aug 15, 2014)

I'd rather have hype than ironic, post-millennial hipster samplers shoegazing and shuffling their feet while talking about how worthless and meaningless their sampling efforts have been. Not that that happens, mind you. But I can imagine it. And no, none of that for me, thank you.

I don't get it. Why would you go to the effort of putting together a strings library (or brass, or WW, or Dodecaphonic Kazoo Choir - DKC's for those in the know...) if you just thought it was going to be okay? So, go on and communicate to me how un-okay it is!

Nope, I'll take grandiose mission statements. I want copy that was handed down from Valhalla on high, and I prefer my adjectives to end in "est." I have to watch action films nowadays (I'm looking at you, Expendables 1-3.) that are knowingly, tongue-firmly-in-cheek ironic. At least let my sample libraries be larger than life.


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## Carbs (Aug 15, 2014)

bbunker @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> I don't get it. Why would you go to the effort of putting together a strings library (or brass, or WW, or Dodecaphonic Kazoo Choir - DKC's for those in the know...) if you just thought it was going to be okay? So, go on and communicate to me how un-okay it is!



To make money.


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## ysnyvz (Aug 15, 2014)

I don't judge any developer's marketing style or product descriptions. If I don't like it or need it, I don't buy it no matter what developers say anyway.
But sometimes it gets ridiculously funny like this: :D



> From deep within the coveted labs at Prime Loops HQ, after months of dangerous experiments, cruel synthesis testing, and sleep deprivation, "Synth Addict" is unleashed...but beware...this is one's infectious, do you want the remedy?
> 
> Are you sure? Because this is quite simply one of the most groundbreaking synth loops collections of the market today. Are you a true synth addict? Everything has been developed and tested using a highly confidential mixture of vintage, new analogue synthesizers and cutting edge digital processing tools; concocting the hottest and most extreme sounds of the moment with advanced synthesis techniques gained over years and countless hits in the making. You will not find another release like this, anywhere.
> 
> ...


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## AC986 (Aug 15, 2014)

Larry great topic btw.

:lol:


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## JohnG (Aug 15, 2014)

ysnyvz @ 15th August 2014 said:


> Ieverything has been recorded in 24-bit audio ensuring the utmost quality,



I've written some pretty crappy music that was recorded in 24 bit. So I'm not sure about this quality thing.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 15, 2014)

JohnG @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> ysnyvz @ 15th August 2014 said:
> 
> 
> > Ieverything has been recorded in 24-bit audio ensuring the utmost quality,
> ...



Thankfully, Cubase can output at 32 bit, making crappy music utterly impossible.


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## woodsdenis (Aug 15, 2014)

JohnG @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> ysnyvz @ 15th August 2014 said:
> 
> 
> > Ieverything has been recorded in 24-bit audio ensuring the utmost quality,
> ...



Dobly?


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## gsilbers (Aug 15, 2014)

JohnG @ Thu Aug 14 said:


> gsilbers @ 14th August 2014 said:
> 
> 
> > a family in a nice house with a white picket fence and a yard etc etc of how things "should be" and to have "this hapiness you need X" i go ballistic. i just yell at the tv.. [email protected]#t!!
> ...



haha! i know!. what a sour guy. thats why i cant watch tv with ads. 

i grad in business school so i know whats "behind" all the commercials. 

also, .... well.. watching a walmart or ross commercial with the "perfect" people and then you go to the store and see this:
http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/

okok.. i think i need my pillss o-[][]-o


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## NYC Composer (Aug 15, 2014)

As I think through this, two more issues feed into the mix (partially informed by previous posts):

1. The "religious aspect". We composers tend to elevate the companies we admire to a higher spiritual plane, both their work and their motivations for doing the work, which leads into:

2. The formation of teams and cheerleading squads. You're in one camp or another, and squabbles between them elevate the hype. For one team to win the other team must lose, which increases the hype. Company A's products vs Company B 's products-"if you like Company B's products, bug-laden and awful sounding, you must be a moron." That sort of thing. It's human nature to want to be on the right side of things (unless you're me of course).

I wanted to comment on the fighter plane thing but I'm going to be steadfast and keep my comments secular and about the industry. I reiterate that I'd love to keep it that way,
but if a dev checks in and wants to join the fray, I guess it becomes open season.

Once again- my statement is that I feel I'm being oversold. I'm apparently not the only one. If things are trending that way (focus group, anyone?) maybe that might be informative.


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## wesbender (Aug 15, 2014)

These days I tend to just gloss over any text in a product announcement/description and head straight for the demos/price/important stuff. If I like what I hear, I might end up reading a bit of the description until I reach any of my "release a sigh and close the tab" triggers: 

'deep sampled', 'hyper-realistic', 'never been done before', 'breaking new ground', 'next-generation', etc. etc.

(though if I don't find any naked demos, the tab will often end up getting closed regardless).

I mean, I have no great problem with any of the developers who partake in such things. I certainly can understand it from a business perspective, and I'll often end up buying some of their products anyway (though not coincidentally, these purchases tend to have a much higher chance of leading to buyer's remorse...a big part of why I'm not as into the sample buying game as I used to be.), but to answer the original question....do I tire of it? Absolutely.


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## AC986 (Aug 15, 2014)

gsilbers @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> also, .... well.. watching a walmart or ross commercial with the "perfect" people and then you go to the store and see this:
> http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/
> 
> okok.. i think i need my pillss o-[][]-o



Holy Crap! Some of those photos are fearful.


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## MA-Simon (Aug 15, 2014)

I honnestly only read the articulation pages.
Then go straight for the walktroughs...


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## AC986 (Aug 15, 2014)

MA-Simon @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> Then go straight for the walktroughs...



They have those in Walmart? 

I'm not surprised after those photos.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 15, 2014)

adriancook @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> MA-Simon @ Fri Aug 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Then go straight for the walktroughs...
> ...



Oink!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 15, 2014)

Everything and everyone annoys me, not just marketing hype.



> I've written some pretty crappy music that was recorded in 24 bit. So I'm not sure about this quality thing.



And that's a surprise? You need at least 32 bits, preferably 33.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 15, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> Everything and everyone annoys me, not just marketing hype.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Statements like this annoy me a bit.


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## d.healey (Aug 15, 2014)

I think video walkthroughs are usually helpful, especially when it is just the instrument hanging out all pink and naked without any effects or other instruments getting in the way.

What do you guys think about free 'lite' versions of libraries? Do you find them helpful when deciding whether to purchase a VI?


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## NYC Composer (Aug 15, 2014)

TotalComposure @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> I think video walkthroughs are usually helpful, especially when it is just the instrument hanging out all pink and naked without any effects or other instruments getting in the way.
> 
> What do you guys think about free 'lite' versions of libraries? Do you find them helpful when deciding whether to purchase a VI?



Timed demos of plug-ins really work for me. If I'm intrigued enough by a plug-in to download a timed demo, my buy rate is usually around 50%.Obviously, the size of recent libraries makes this impossible, or at best, impractical. 

Lite versions are touch and go- some give me enough of an indication of their worth, some not so much.


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## gsilbers (Aug 15, 2014)

TotalComposure @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> I think video walkthroughs are usually helpful, especially when it is just the instrument hanging out all pink and naked without any effects or other instruments getting in the way.
> 
> What do you guys think about free 'lite' versions of libraries? Do you find them helpful when deciding whether to purchase a VI?



i got the "lite" version of some east west libraries to find out there is little upgrade paths. i got silver piano but i cant go to platinum. 
or the silver HS brass and strings cannot be used in the CCC bundle as an upgrade options. which basically means i have to buy from scratch and already spent $100 for a "demo".. or rental.. i guess.


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## bigcat1969 (Aug 15, 2014)

In a world of massive hype who is really going to come out and say 'Mediocre Piano with faked sustain samples, only a few velocity layers and sampled two notes per octave with looped samples that don't exceed three seconds in true length.'
I know of such a collection or darn close, but it is according to the PR the most wonderful piano collection in the world that is amazingly light on memory but has all the quality and responsiveness of massive pianos that are a hundred times big (I don't mean PianoTeq. On his sales site are testimonials of people who have never heard anything better in their lives and were also healed of fatal diseases by listening to the pianos.
His way he's sold plenty of pianos I'm sure, my way he wouldn't have sold one. Shrug. It probably explains the three people that visited my blog today versus the 30 pianos he probably sold today!


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## kitekrazy (Aug 15, 2014)

There weren't as many sample libraries at the turn of the century either.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 15, 2014)

> Statements like this annoy me a bit.



THEY DO NOT!


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## Saxer (Aug 15, 2014)

the marketing begins when people don't speak about their products themself anymore but hire 'professionals' to do it for them.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 15, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> > Statements like this annoy me a bit.
> 
> 
> 
> THEY DO NOT!



You wouldn't even acknowledge the "bit" pun, which was stellar work on my part.
I so admire your intransigence.


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## dpasdernick (Aug 15, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Thu Aug 14 said:


> I've bought a little bit from practically all the bigger developers and lots of smaller ones, so I'm on a lot of mailing lists as I'm sure many of you are. It's not that I mind the notifications of new products, not at all. Actually I tend to haunt the Commercial section for new stuff.
> 
> What makes me a little weary is the overselling. Whether it's "we're extremely passionate about what we do" or "no one has ever done this before" or "we have extended the round robins to an infinite number" or "we have hired golden-eared (name here) to engineer these sessions" or "we built an 80 million dollar opera house to create ambiences never heard before" or "we have flown to the planet Malthusia to record alien voices", it's always bolder, bigger, better, more ethically praiseworthy or whatnot.
> 
> Look, I get it. It's marketing. If you can't sell it, you can't get paid, you can't do more good work, baby doesn't get that new pair of shoes. Marketing stokes the engine of commerce. The sale of goods makes the world go 'round. I'm all for that. I just wonder, does it get a little much for ya sometimes?



I think I'm burning out on the hype for sure. What adds to it is the comments that happen on VI when a developer is slogging another big bang boomy library and people respond with "drooling on the floor credit card in hand" sigh...

Game changers for me are few and far between these days. I drop by here to see if Spectrasonics has come out of their coma but other than that there is very little that catches my ear these days. I've got plenty. They're going to have to put half naked chicks on the box (pardon me to any of the ladies on the forum) in order to get my attention...
I'm that shallow...


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## Arbee (Aug 15, 2014)

Saxer @ Sat Aug 16 said:


> the marketing begins when people don't speak about their products themself anymore but hire 'professionals' to do it for them.


This doesn't bother me too much, companies in every arena roll out sports stars and other celebs to endorse their stuff. What really irks me is planting "ordinary folk" to sway peer group opinion for (their product) and/or against (other products).

Great topic btw, loving it! To answer the OP's question, yes the hype is tiresome, tedious, nauseating, even childish at times, but hey - if they think it works let 'em have their fun  

.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 15, 2014)

Arbee @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> Saxer @ Sat Aug 16 said:
> 
> 
> > the marketing begins when people don't speak about their products themself anymore but hire 'professionals' to do it for them.
> ...



Yeah, me either- sometimes I think it's better to hire someone to run interference, but it's expensive and you need the right person.


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## marclawsonmusic (Aug 15, 2014)

Stephen Rees @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> I wonder how non-british people feel about it Guy.



Doesn't bother me, but I'm just a dumb Yank. :wink:


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## marclawsonmusic (Aug 15, 2014)

adriancook @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> gsilbers @ Fri Aug 15 said:
> 
> 
> > also, .... well.. watching a walmart or ross commercial with the "perfect" people and then you go to the store and see this:
> ...



I live in the Southern US, and yes, I see these people of Wal-Mart almost daily. Sometimes they are not even at Wal-Mart. :lol:


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## NYC Composer (Aug 15, 2014)

marclawsonmusic @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> Stephen Rees @ Fri Aug 15 said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder how non-british people feel about it Guy.
> ...



Fills me with admiration, but I'm just a third generation cranky old New York Jew 

The Battle of Britain was one of the events that saved the world.


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## Synesthesia (Aug 16, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Sat Aug 16 said:


> marclawsonmusic @ Fri Aug 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Stephen Rees @ Fri Aug 15 said:
> ...



When we were in Frankfurt at Messe no-one said they were offended by our name and in fact a few (German) people specifically wanted to come up and chat about how the Spitfire was a key part of freeing the country from a dictator's tyranny.

We were warmly welcomed by the country and the people, and I still fondly remember the Steins and Schnitzels!

I've been to Germany as a child performer and latterly as a tourist a few times and I love the country.

Unfortunately the comment that started this branch of the discussion was placed by an 'Agent Provocateur' so I'm happy to step out from it at this point. I'll step back in if I have any further comments about our marketing team, who are among the most beautiful and talented marketing team that has ever been assembled in the history of the marketing industry.


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## AC986 (Aug 16, 2014)

marclawsonmusic @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> adriancook @ Fri Aug 15 said:
> 
> 
> > gsilbers @ Fri Aug 15 said:
> ...



Marc I'm very tempted to write a music suite called *The Wild Women of Walmart*.
 
A sort of Outer Limits genre.

edit: 'Sometimes they are not even at Walmart'

You mean they actually let them leave? They escape????


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## NYC Composer (Aug 16, 2014)

Synesthesia @ Sat Aug 16 said:


> who are among the most beautiful and talented marketing team that has ever been assembled in the history of the marketing industry.



But of course. Spectacular, splendiferous and of course....the most deeply sampled!


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## Daniel James (Aug 16, 2014)

This thread is now OVER 1000 gigabytes! with OVER 1 million lines of code. Therfor it must be awesome xD

Dick waggling always bothered me in sample marketing.

-DJ


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## NYC Composer (Aug 16, 2014)

Daniel James @ Sat Aug 16 said:


> This thread is now OVER 100 gigabytes! with OVER 1 million lines of code. Therfor it must be awesome xD
> 
> Dick waggling always bothered me in sample marketing.
> 
> -DJ



It's been my life's ambition to start an awesome thread. Now I can leave my centenarian existence behind. Goodbye, cruel world.


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## eric aron (Aug 16, 2014)

the brand name is just a name, this is of less importance because relevant to the symbolic wishes of the dev 

but anything else starting to be complacent to the parroting selling ways mostly used now is waste, and confirms the low level of the business system we are in

blind parroting occurs the same in music selling, writing (cf ‘Hollywood sound’, ‘analog sound’, XX famous artist sound, or any other similar illusions). curiously, nearly nobody talks about music, and even less about Music

i call this laziness, absence of creativity, lack of competences. leading to full complicity in crime to the ambient mediocrity

we dont need marketing. the really good will find its way naturally. the mediocre will remain mediocre whatever make up is used. the multiplicity of choices is more an obstacle than a catalyzer for true creation

unless a serious self effort to escape from this alienation, no hope for change. magic wand doesn’t belong to this world


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## Daniel James (Aug 16, 2014)

eric aron @ Sat Aug 16 said:


> we dont need marketing.



Well thats a bit general I think. Marketing is very useful for spreading awareness about new products and ideas. It also serves to provide information.....those press releases you read telling you what the library contains, what its designed to do, videos showing you how its used are all marketing.

Of course it can be abused, as is being discussed. But it also serves a very useful purpose.

-DJ


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## Ozymandias (Aug 16, 2014)

Truthfully, it's the community-generated hype that I get tired of - specifically in Commercial Announcements.

I understand that people get excited and whatnot, but when something hasn't even been demo'd or walked-through... it gets a bit much.

It would be nice if there was a *Release Announcements*-only forum. A sort of VI-C "quiet coach".


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## NYC Composer (Aug 16, 2014)

Ozymandias @ Sat Aug 16 said:


> Truthfully, it's the community-generated hype that I get tired of - specifically in Commercial Announcements.
> 
> I understand that people get excited and whatnot, but when something hasn't even been demo'd or walked-through... it gets a bit much.
> 
> It would be nice if there was *Release Announcements*-only forum. A sort of VI-C "quiet coach".



Excellent point. So true. I don't see it happening, and in truth as long as developers are paying for Commercial Announcements, it's their business (literally.) i just can't read those threads without sone queasiness, though the devs who take the light approach and keep their sense of humor, not that I would mention any names :::coughcough MikeGreenecoughcough::: are easier for me to take


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## NYC Composer (Aug 16, 2014)

eric aron @ Sat Aug 16 said:


> the brand name is just a name, this is of less importance because relevant to the symbolic wishes of the dev
> 
> but anything else starting to be complacent to the parroting selling ways mostly used now is waste, and confirms the low level of the business system we are in
> 
> ...



Are you a reader of Plato, Eric? Your ruminations remind me of his dialogue with Phaedrus regarding the definition of good and virtuous, the quality in life, the arete.

Not a simple matter- in my view quite a subjective one. There has been marketing forever, and it's never going away, and to my mind there's nothing inherently wrong with it.


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## Daryl (Aug 16, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Sat Aug 16 said:


> There has been marketing forever, and it's never going away, and to my mind there's nothing inherently wrong with it.


True, but that shouldn't stop us poking fun at and ridiculing those developers who actually seem to believe their own hype,

D


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## TheUnfinished (Aug 16, 2014)

There's nothing more horrifying for me than sitting down to write the blurb bit for a new soundset. I hope no-one's counting the number of times the same adjectives appear over and over again. Old Roget has a limited entry for variations on a theme "Yeah, s'alright, I suppose..."

I think where the hype issue seems odd to me is that there seems to be this need for giving the impression that it's always an improvement on the last thing (often a need for it to be a leap in improvement). I don't see why. If your last product was great, where's the shame in making something that's the same quality as that?


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## NYC Composer (Aug 16, 2014)

Daryl @ Sat Aug 16 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sat Aug 16 said:
> 
> 
> > There has been marketing forever, and it's never going away, and to my mind there's nothing inherently wrong with it.
> ...



I respect people who do great work. I've supported many of them with many dollars and plenty of praise and been satisfied with the exchange. I don't really believe in ridicule. Fun is something else. 

It seems I'm not the only one to have perceived some over the top hubris here. Nothing wrong with a fanfare at release- it's the continuing and constant cultish worship-fests and self-aggrandizement that make me shake my head. Also, the targeting and ridiculing of anyone who expresses an opinion that might not fit in with the mission. The first ridicule in this generally very civil thread (thanks everyone!) that I saw was the "no country for grumpy old men" graphic directed at me. Well, in my case it's perfectly true, but I didn't search the web for an "Overly Sensitive Snarky Developer " graphic to respond. I'm sure they're everywhere :wink: 

It's a forum, it serves a need for the free flow of ideas and opinions. That's how I understand it, and I'll express my opinion in a civil manner and let the chips fall where they may.

As an aside, let's get real here -this is not just a forum for "musicians helping musicians"-it's also a forum for "musicians selling stuff to other musicians." That subtext doesn't get talked about all that much, but after the lengthy discussions last year, I learned some things and never go into commercial threads to pss on someone's parade (I rarely ever did anyway, but I made it a policy.) Devs should think about how involved they should get in opinion based forum discussions, be they about marketing or pricing or specifics about products. If they get involved in these threads, they open cans of worms and paint targets on their backs for even crankier SOBs than me.

Ok, I've written a novel here. I'm done. Thanks for sharing opinions and keeping it cool. V.I.C. Forever. I want a t-shirt.


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## bigcat1969 (Aug 16, 2014)

I hear you, TheUnfinished. I'm terrible at writing blurbs, though I'm pretty proud of my hype line, "It sounds slightly unlike any other digital piano." On the other hand after reading this thread I feel very bad about having said, "...sounds pretty analogue for a digital piano."

I wonder if we can start creating our own words to describe things or mangling words together.

For the first time on this or any other planet, the most spantabulis and abstriblier instrument to ever grupwilterly your qubmarkable ears is now available for kulmarkably low price of only nothing down and a digit (yours or someone elses) a month for 13 months.


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## Daryl (Aug 16, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Sat Aug 16 said:


> Daryl @ Sat Aug 16 said:
> 
> 
> > NYC Composer @ Sat Aug 16 said:
> ...


And that's where I disagree. If, as you say, they've done good work, then I think that their hype could be put in perspective, but if their hype is basically saying that no other developer knows anything, and that they pretty much invented the wheel, then I will feel free to laugh openly at them. After all, I would expect the same treatment if I did the same with what passes for composition at Sir Daryl Towers. :wink: 

D


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## Daryl (Aug 16, 2014)

bigcat1969 @ Sat Aug 16 said:


> For the first time on this or any other planet, the most spantabulis and abstriblier instrument to ever grupwilterly your qubmarkable ears is now available for kulmarkably low price of only nothing down and a digit (yours or someone elses) a month for 13 months.


Now this I love. I'm defo buying that product. Whatever it is... :lol: 

D


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## Synesthesia (Aug 16, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Sat Aug 16 said:


> The first ridicule in this generally very civil thread (thanks everyone!) that I saw was the "no country for grumpy old men" graphic directed at me.



Wow.. erm it was just a bit of light hearted banter. Certainly not intended to be ridicule by any standards. I guess not everyone shares my slightly twisted sense of humour. I should probably just butt out and stick to my over the top marketing posts!

(ridicule: noun 1. the subjection of someone or something to contemptuous and dismissive language or behaviour.)

BTW 'Grumpy old man' is a very common and light hearted dig over here in part due to our excellent comedy observational show Grumpy Old Men


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## doctornine (Aug 16, 2014)

35 to 55….. well, I think that pretty much sums up the age group of about 90% of the people who post on here, which then makes them all grumpy old men. Obviously.

:mrgreen: 

Personally I'm not buying another product unless it's got a mildly contentious and possibly offensive name, and does what another product does, only better and with more round robins and true legato etc etc….

o/~


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## Resoded (Aug 16, 2014)

doctornine @ 16th August 2014 said:


> Personally I'm not buying another product unless it's got a mildly contentious and possibly offensive name,



In that case, my soon to be released library "Paraplegic Strings" will be right up your alley.


----------



## Stephen Rees (Aug 16, 2014)

@Resoded: It is not too late to remove that post before a lot of people read it.


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## Resoded (Aug 16, 2014)

Stephen, it's just a joke.


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## Stephen Rees (Aug 16, 2014)

I didn't suggest removing it for my benefit. I suggested removing it for yours. If you wish that remark to represent you to the world then so be it.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Aug 16, 2014)

What a lot of wasted bandwidth in this thread... :-(

I can see a button marked X that you cannot see and I am trigger happy today. But I will not hit it and also not without checking with the other moderators first.

Please be a bit nicer to each other...


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## benmrx (Aug 16, 2014)

I don't mind the hype at all. Mostly because it's fully my choice to read or ignore it. You don't HAVE to read entire news letters describing new products, and you don't HAVE to read a 20 page thread to know a product exists. It's our choice to be a part of it and dig into the wording.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Aug 16, 2014)

On Spitfire Audio: I have become only recently a customer, when I wanted to invest this year into new libraries. I was simply not aware of their great products (but I heard about the libraries from friends like James Semple and from discussions in a closed FB group).

When I finally met with Paul (Synesthesia) in Frankfurt this year, I mentioned to him that I found their site not really comprehensible and it was hard to get a quick overview of their offerings. Paul told me that they were already re-doing the site.

Just my impression, before I became a great fan of their products.

Best part of the Spitfire marketing are IMHO the videos. Very professional, instructive and honest. And Paul is a very sweet and down to earth guy, putting his passion into the Spitfire products.


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## kitekrazy (Aug 17, 2014)

Peter Emanuel Roos @ Sat Aug 16 said:


> On Spitfire Audio: I have become only recently a customer, when I wanted to invest this year into new libraries. I was simply not aware of their great products (but I heard about the libraries from friends like James Semple and from discussions in a closed FB group).
> 
> When I finally met with Paul (Synesthesia) in Frankfurt this year,* I mentioned to him that I found their site not really comprehensible and it was hard to get a quick overview of their offerings.* Paul told me that they were already re-doing the site.
> 
> ...



I feel that way about 8dio. Am I the only one? It's nice eye candy but not really practical for me.


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## tmm (Aug 17, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Thu Aug 14 said:


> I just wonder, does it get a little much for ya sometimes?



Personally (and this honestly isn't directed at you, I think your way of asking / stating the question was legit), I find the people complaining about marketing hype a lot more exhausting than marketing hype itself. Nothing wrong with having passion for what you do... If you don't have passion for something, why do it?


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## Dr.Quest (Aug 17, 2014)

> Personally (and this honestly isn't directed at you, I think your way of asking / stating the question was legit), I find the people complaining about marketing hype a lot more exhausting than marketing hype itself. Nothing wrong with having passion for what you do... If you don't have passion for something, why do it?







+1 on this!


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## jleckie (Aug 18, 2014)

Resoded @ Sat Aug 16 said:


> doctornine @ 16th August 2014 said:
> 
> 
> > Personally I'm not buying another product unless it's got a mildly contentious and possibly offensive name,
> ...



Wow.


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## HardyP (Aug 18, 2014)

Peter Emanuel Roos @ 2014-08-16 said:


> On Spitfire Audio: [...] I was simply not aware of their great products [...] When I finally met with Paul (Synesthesia) in Frankfurt this year, I mentioned to him that I found their site not really comprehensible and it was hard to get a quick overview of their offerings. [...]
> Best part of the Spitfire marketing are IMHO the videos. Very professional, instructive and honest. And Paul is a very sweet and down to earth guy, putting his passion into the Spitfire products.



I fully agree - when I was searching for a string library some years ago, I stumbled about SF´s site. But the mentioned points plus the impression of "WW2 images"(*) and the slightly over-the-top marketing language turned me down.

To be honest, I am regretting now NOT having looked into more detail (was not part of VI-C back then...). In my opinion (in order to come back towards the original topic), if the pre-sales marketing is not the end of the passion, then everything's gonna be allright. In the specific case of SF, the during- and after-sales support seems to be as passionate as the marketing. Informative videos are provided instantly. Not only bugfixes, but updates seem to come massive and free. 
--> THIS is true, _sustained_ marketing. 

(*) - PS:
Paul, if you kept on following this thread: I´m a mechanical engineer, so loving technical finesse, too. I also like (old) photography. But nevertheless it also influenced (I think) my decision in a negative way, at least bcs I maybe left the homepage too fast. 
But the new page layout is way improved, and providing more of the "whole picture" (in terms of products and approach)! In fact, I admire if companies are able to stay the course in terms of approach, design, art,...


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## rgarber (Aug 18, 2014)

Figure I'd add my 2 cents in while waiting for support to answer a question...

For me, I rarely read the write-ups, I usually go straight for the demos. Gotta hear it to believe it. But I sometimes do read the write-ups but usually after hearing the demos. And the better the demo the more likely I'm to splurge. If there's a sale, just leave the door open.

To me the whole business of making realistic sounding music out of thin air, practically, is simply amazing. So I can't get enough of advertising to be honest, I just wish there was one place to find out all the ones that are out there. This forum has been great for me if for no other reason I now have what I believe is the best horn library out there.

I'd like to focus in on one thing though. Some folks say they do not want to hear the demos but plain-jane like and I can understand that. In fact, I got into it big time with Tom Hopkins over at Garritan just because I thought it was misleading how they included eq-ing in their demos. I was new then and the problem real came in, for me at least, because I didn't understand mixing like I thought I did. I didn't realize the importance of effects or anything really when it came to audio.

Because, in the end, that's what I will be doing too. So why not hear their demos in full glory? I sort of think of this as their demo is at least the minimal goal I'm shooting for. I can't tell before I actually have my hands on their product just how well the samples will mix and play together. So by them doing their best, I know I can achieve at least that. I do wish though they'd say how they did it. I'm not asking for a course in mixing, I've taken those (mostly Groove3).

Just to clarify, most of my stuff is big band and jazz combo.

(sigh) still waiting on support...

Rich


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## bigcat1969 (Aug 18, 2014)

Because of you guys on this thread I wrote 'I humbly present 3 pretty nice Pianos' as my buildup on another thread in this forum!

Oh I like big band and jazz, rgarber. You have any stuff out there I can listen to?


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## rgarber (Aug 18, 2014)

Yes I do, my site is http://www.livingwatersjazz.com and thanks for asking. I have a page devoted to my big band music (all original compositions and rendering) where you can still hear my most recent but there's also a link on that page which will take you to Soundclick where I have some more but it's older compositions I did a few years back going all the way back to the early 2000s. Interesting because back then it was Gigastudio, then Kontakt and now a combination of Kontakt and UVI mixed. Oh, and my site is under construction at the moment so please pardon the mess and some of my write-ups. And thanks for listening. 


Rich


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## Brendon Williams (Aug 18, 2014)

rgarber @ Mon Aug 18 said:


> This forum has been great for me if for no other reason I now have what I believe is the best horn library out there.



Not to steer this thread off-course, but what is the horn library you are referring to? And I assume you mean horns as the word is used for jazz/big band music, not orchestral, right? I'm currently looking to get some great samples for jazz and big band.


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## rgarber (Aug 18, 2014)

Right, I mean horns for jazz not classical, sorry for not being clearer. And you got a good point there to not steer the thread off topic so try listening to what I've done at my http://www.livingwatersjazz.com site and listen to the jazz Play-Along samples and then my big band page and then send a pm if you're still interested. The library I speak of its a great starting point but there's stuff to be done to the midi and audio track to give the horn the realistic sound I like. I do like my mixes a bit dryer than wet, it's just a preference. - Rich


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## Peter Alexander (Aug 18, 2014)

Thought this might add to the discussion.
http://therecordingrevolution.com/2014/ ... udio-gear/


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## Peter Alexander (Aug 18, 2014)

Synesthesia @ Sat Aug 16 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sat Aug 16 said:
> 
> 
> > marclawsonmusic @ Fri Aug 15 said:
> ...



The first difficulty here is in describing verbally what something sounds like. How do you verbally describe one library compared to another? 

The second difficulty is in describing the library features. Do you use synth language? Instrumentation/orchestration language? A combination of the two? Something totally new?

The third difficulty is in having something truly unique and then having some say you're hyping your product. It is a fact that for now Spitfire is the only orchestral library recorded in Air Lyndhurst. It's also a fact that Berlin is the only lib so far recorded in Teldex and CineSamples in Sony/MGM. How is this a benefit? How do you say so without being "hypie"? 

European marketing is different from American. One is understated and the other is more forthright. It's a global market. Which approach is the best to use? 

Always lots of questions to answer when marketing libraries.


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## G.R. Baumann (Aug 19, 2014)

It does not make me tired at all. I am just getting in the habbit to not read the whole text and skip what I think is blah. 

It would be nice if the marketing part of products could be banned to the small print together with the legal mambo jambo. :lol:

I prefer a structured page where I can click on specs and get a complete overview of what's on offer.

The hyped stuff surrounding announcements without content is a total time waster and utterly useless. It is not even humorous and just blows things out of proportions. These blockbuster announcements suffer from some inferiority complex perhaps. :lol:


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## Daryl (Aug 19, 2014)

Peter Alexander @ Tue Aug 19 said:


> European marketing is different from American. One is understated and the other is more forthright. It's a global market. Which approach is the best to use?


If you look at TV advertising, you will also see a difference. In the UK, for example, if one makes a claim about a product, you have to be able to prove it, so you can't say that your brand of washing powder removes more grime than brand X if you can't prove it. Also if you make a claim about percentage of people who prefer it, you have to state the sample size and numbers as well. I don't think that is the case in the US, or it certainly wasn't last time I was there.

Therefore I would imagine that people who are more used to truthful advertising would get slightly more irate when reading wild unsubstantiated claims about products than people who are used to filtering them out.

D


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 19, 2014)

Peter Alexander @ Tue Aug 19 said:


> Thought this might add to the discussion.
> http://therecordingrevolution.com/2014/ ... udio-gear/



Good, well argued article Peter - kudos for linking it as you are also a retailer 

More and more I find myself not just exhausted at the marketing, but exhausted at the thought of the products themselves. Each one requires more resources and more time spent learning a new tool that may or may not work very differently to the old one. There's a lot to be said for really knowing how to use what you have. It is often said that the best DAW is the one you use, and there's much truth in that (though there are limits), but really the same principle applies to string libraries when you think about it. Not wanting to drag in another whole topic, but DJ got criticised recently because he didn't want to take the time and effort to change a whole system - and a system of working - for one new library, which promised so much. I can totally understand that - maybe I was one step ahead in that case cos I never bought the thing in the first place. I am finding much easier to resist the lure of the SHIIIINNNY new libraries as I feel I'm very well covered for most things now, so more aware of the potential downsides of yet another new variation on a theme. So folks in my position might be that much more resistant to the marketing hype, it can just get a little, well, tiring I guess.


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## kitekrazy (Aug 19, 2014)

Peter Alexander @ Mon Aug 18 said:


> Thought this might add to the discussion.
> http://therecordingrevolution.com/2014/ ... udio-gear/



Here's another one.

http://www.musicsoftwaretraining.com/bl ... producers/


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## eric aron (Aug 20, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Sat Aug 16 said:


> Are you a reader of Plato, Eric? Your ruminations remind me of his dialogue with Phaedrus regarding the definition of good and virtuous, the quality in life, the arete.
> 
> Not a simple matter- in my view quite a subjective one. There has been marketing forever, and it's never going away, and to my mind there's nothing inherently wrong with it.



yes, he is my brother, as everyone else that have brought light into our human slavery..


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## eric aron (Aug 20, 2014)

there is nothing wrong with true information

marketing has a different target


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 20, 2014)

> You wouldn't even acknowledge the "bit" pun, which was stellar work on my part.
> I so admire your intransigence.



How do you know it was intransigence and not just me being slow?

HUH? HUH?


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## gbar (Aug 20, 2014)

> "European marketing is different from American. One is understated and the other is more forthright. It's a global market. Which approach is the best to use?



Meh, I don't know about that... especially when you get right down to what works (European vs North American).

You know, an organic chemist accidentally discovered a compound that could remove smells like cigarette smoke from his jacket. Proctor & Gamble decided to mass produce and mass market it as Fabreze, and the pitch they used was that it got rid of the worst odors.

Sales were terrible. They figured that it needed a scent (it was unscented), so they reformulated and mass produced a bunch of scented Fabreze, and people still weren't buying the stuff.

You know what made it start selling? Here's the pitch (you might already know it): [Woman stops vacuuming and sprays Fabreze] Voice-over: Fabreze, so your house smells as clean as it looks.


Morals of this story: 

1. There needs to be some sort of feedback (e.g. spray this as a kind of perk after your housecleaning, and your house wil smell fabulous).

2. People won't buy something that is supposed to get rid of bad smells because they don't want to believe that they or their homes stink... ever, so that is no way to sell them something that gets rid of their stink 


Also, back when people in the states were all buying Hummers, you know all those "manly commercials" they were using to sell those things? Those came out of focus groups, and the target audience, the audience that responded to that message.... were women. They were trying to sell Hummers to women, not men. Not necessarily intuitive  Buy this and you will feel powerful.


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## kitekrazy (Aug 20, 2014)

So far I haven't seen, "They only library you'll ever need".


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## Audio Genetics Lab (Aug 20, 2014)

Purely for the enjoyment of those frustrated with marketing hype, I present a throwback to our April Fools day release announcement from 2012: "Epic Epic"...

A gentle ribbing of the developer community. 

Original link: {{removed so as not to imply "release announcement". This is for laughs }}

**********************************
April 1, 2012.


For years, composers have been yearning for the biggest sounds…the hardest impacts…and power of the grandest scales.

The search for the most epic, cutting edge, and next-generation instruments have led sound designers to the farthest reaches of the globe in search of a revolution.

Audio Genetics Lab has joined the uprising.

Introducing…

Epic Epic.

After a year of working on private contracts for composers, we knew that to celebrate a return to public products we would need something bigger, something better, something more epic than ever heard before.

We went straight to the source.

What could be more epic than the actual word “Epic”? This collection of percussion, ambiences, and effects has been crafted from emotional, real performances of the word “Epic”, redefining the sampling world and industry in two thunderous syllables. Feel the opening bellow of the “E”, the warm percussives of “p”, the crisp highs of the “i”, and the sharp snaps of the “c” in this one-of-a-kind performance instrument. Included for a limited time is the Extra-Special Extended Library patch which includes additional articulations, such as “Huge”, “Boom”, and more.

And we didn’t stop there. These instruments really come alive when you use our custom “Haule” convolution reverb impulse response. The virtual instrument world is flooded with imitation Hall reverbs, relying on churches, large recording spaces, concert venues, and mathematical models as their “hall”. Again, we went straight to the source. This hall reverb is an actual hall, inaccessible to the public and made specially available only to Audio Genetics Lab. Only a real hall reverb can provide the subtle resonances and reflections of both closed and open doors to other rooms such as bathrooms, kitchens, and bedrooms. With Audio Genetics Lab’s “Haule”, you can walk down the path to realism, and open the doors of possibility.

Epic Epic features unprecedented advances in button technology by bringing you the ability to access revolutionary audio effects (present since Kontakt 2) that were previously only available by selecting them from a complicated “drop-down menu”. Now, you can finally get to these nearly decade-old built-in effects with our incredible array of custom UI button placements. Some of our new buttons and knobs were so revolutionary, easy-to-use, and intuitive that we have even removed them completely from view. This allows you to truly feel the music and get straight to composing without worrying about technical roadblocks like delay times, envelopes, and filter cut-offs.


The release of Epic Epic is accompanied by the simultaneous announcement of Epic Epic Pro, which will feature all new content recorded directly to analog tape using vintage microphones. These recordings truly shine in their raw, vintage glory after being processed through our digital noise reduction, filtering, compression, sample-rate conversion, and Kontakt programming.

Epic Epic Pro will also give you access to our new sample playback engine “Work”, for the working composer. Featuring all the same or fewer features of Kontakt, but with less clutter, confusion, flexibility, and compatibility. This new platform is currently in beta testing, and is guaranteed to be incredibly efficient when run on a 2.4 GHz Mac Pro with 5 gigs of RAM, running OS 10.6.7, between the hours of 7:00am – 11:45pm GMT, when the average humidity is between 10% and 65%.







EPIC DEMO:
[flash width=450 height=110 loop=false]http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F41660347&secret_url=false[/flash]


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## kitekrazy (Aug 20, 2014)

Plus you must attach an artist's name to it and make sure to hike the price.


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## toddbigelow (Aug 20, 2014)

Peter Emanuel Roos @ Sat Aug 16 said:


> On Spitfire Audio: I have become only recently a customer, when I wanted to invest this year into new libraries. I was simply not aware of their great products (but I heard about the libraries from friends like James Semple and from discussions in a closed FB group).
> 
> When I finally met with Paul (Synesthesia) in Frankfurt this year, I mentioned to him that I found their site not really comprehensible and it was hard to get a quick overview of their offerings. Paul told me that they were already re-doing the site.
> 
> ...



Yes, thank you Peter! I felt as though I was missing something there for a while and I'm glad to know I wasn't the only one. I wonder if you are responsible for some of the positive changes on their site in recent months. 

I love their portfolio of products but I must have spent a couple weeks reading about brush strokes and colors and fine players, and still couldn't quite figure out the need some of the ranges were meant to fill. This is the perfect example of marketing requiring so much energy on my part I eventually stopped trying to make a purchase. It's much better now and hopefully reflects the quality of product they produce. You're right, the videos are great and honest.


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## lpuser (Aug 21, 2014)

To add my 2 cent, I don´t mind the marketing hype much (because it´s sales), but I do get tired when the announced libraries are still months away.

In my opinion, the unfortunate trend we sometimes see with record releases, spreads into the library business too: Make an announcement to keep people from buying competitive products, but then take months before even posting the first audio demo.

I wished that companies would get back to announcing libs when they have a release date and something to listen to. All these pre-announcements months ahead of "anything" make me much more tired than all the marketing hype combined.

Cheers
Tom


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## Markus S (Aug 21, 2014)

Peter Alexander @ Mon Aug 18 said:


> Thought this might add to the discussion.
> http://therecordingrevolution.com/2014/ ... udio-gear/



Totally subscribing to this. Following marketing hype can be contra productive for us composers. We need to learn deeply how to use these tools and not cumulate as much as possible of them.


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## wanmingyan (Aug 21, 2014)

Markus S @ August 21st 2014 said:


> Peter Alexander @ Mon Aug 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Thought this might add to the discussion.
> ...



+1!!!


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## Daniel James (Aug 21, 2014)

Markus S @ Thu Aug 21 said:


> Peter Alexander @ Mon Aug 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Thought this might add to the discussion.
> ...



Although there must come a point when your Edirol Orchestra doesn't quite cut it on the professional stage and you have to upgrade 

If something pushes the industry forward surely its worth being on the cutting edge?

-DJ


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## eric aron (Aug 21, 2014)

i don't need to upgrade my Steinway D, nor any true instrument

cutting edge of an illusion, funny eh


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## Arbee (Aug 21, 2014)

I like to be at the leading edge, but not the bleeding edge. I usually invest at the post-hype stage once the fads have evaporated and the stayers have established themselves.

.


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## Rv5 (Aug 21, 2014)

Daniel James @ Thu Aug 21 said:


> Although there must come a point when your Edirol Orchestra doesn't quite cut it on the professional stage and you have to upgrade
> 
> 
> -DJ



I made this with Edirol Orchestral: 

[flash width=450 height=110 loop=false]http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F154009538&secret_url=false[/flash] 

Still think it's kinda ok sounding 0_o lols Actually, to this day, it's got my favourite ever TamTams

But yeah, working with your tools, getting to know them intimately, it's important - so much can be done with so little. Heard loads of tracks out there that when amazed by a sound or production, told it uses some stock plugs or stock samples. 

Sample libraries are a hobby, a passion, a vice.. it's nice to see what's about, it's exciting to think about possibilities, but like everything it comes down to balance; don't over do it. Don't under do it. Those different boundaries will resonate with different people differently and as such, not everyone will be satisfied. But, you know, as long as there is honesty and sincerity in it... that often comes across. If it's 'all talk', that's often exposed. In the mean time, we're all very, very spoiled for choice.


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## neve (Aug 23, 2014)

In defense of a certain type of hype I'd like to distinguish two forms of hype.

From the Merrimam-Webster Dictionary:

Hype:
_- To put on, deceive. To promote or publicize extravagantly. _ 
I think this is the type of hype most forum members have had in mind in this thread, and I also think that there is a general tendency in marketing to present things as more desirable than they actually are. I think that with the priority of making money marketing is neglecting other more creative ways of showing all the real potentials of a product.

_- Stimulate, enliven. Increase. _ I think for example how the visual design of a sample library GUI makes me enjoy the sounds more, by seing some sparks and glitter here and there. Some of the teasers I've seen have really 'enlived' me, or have made me feel life more intensely. Now, I actually kind of really like this type of hype. I actually think that composing music for media is often about creating this type of hype. It is about stimulating the senses through the aural realm. There is some alchemy or some magic related to this. For example in film music it is not just about conveying suspense, or drama, or dissapointment, or fear - it is about enlivening the experiential space in the process. This crazy vitality is why I love film music and other music for media, and just as music intensifies the visual experience, I think that the visual (and other) experience(s) can also intensify the aural one. 

See for example the DTS sound signature videos (e.g. http://vimeo.com/29682570 ). In my opinion they hype things up. But this is a type of hype I actually really appreciate because it enlivens the intensities that compose our surroundings.


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## Daniel James (Aug 24, 2014)

Rv5 @ Thu Aug 21 said:


> Daniel James @ Thu Aug 21 said:
> 
> 
> > Although there must come a point when your Edirol Orchestra doesn't quite cut it on the professional stage and you have to upgrade
> ...



Haha dam that isnt actually to bad at all! I think you got what I was trying to say though (before you so beautifully corrected me xD)

-DJ


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## Rv5 (Aug 24, 2014)

Haha, no you're right! But I think there is always more from what you have! Thanks - it was a track from back in the day when I was learning the ropes and Edirol Orchestral was the only thing around. I'm keen to do a remake with the 'latest and greatest', not sure I've still got the original arrangment though :shock: 

I think some announcements should include:

So deeply sampled, we needed a submarine.

If this were any more deeply sampled, we'd end up hitting lava.

Pass me the piling drill, we're going in deep.

You think the Mariana Trench is deep? ..

You thought Adele was Rolling in the Deep, that wasn't deep...

"Deeply dippy about the sample depth..."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dGYXGnSeBM

etc...

gosh I need to get out more.


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## nutotech (Aug 27, 2014)

Only my buddy Larry could create a thread that's five pages long, has someone wax philosophical about toilet paper* and* have contributions from composers all over the world. 

You guys are very entertaining and I enjoyed every comment. O.K. I lied. Only read the first two pages...but enjoyed those!


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## Casiquire (Aug 27, 2014)

Daryl @ Tue 19 Aug said:


> If you look at TV advertising, you will also see a difference. In the UK, for example, if one makes a claim about a product, you have to be able to prove it, so you can't say that your brand of washing powder removes more grime than brand X if you can't prove it. Also if you make a claim about percentage of people who prefer it, you have to state the sample size and numbers as well. I don't think that is the case in the US, or it certainly wasn't last time I was there.
> 
> D



You have to be able to back up your claims in the US too. The problem is that megacorporations in the US are very good at finding numbers that fit their claims ;o)

You can make a statistic say anything.

A good example that you can't just say whatever you want in the US is Airborne, which was advertised as a supplement that can stop or shorten the duration of a cold. They were the subject of a couple of large successful class-action lawsuits and were fined by the Federal Trade Commission for making claims that weren't true.


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## pettinhouse (Sep 5, 2014)

hmmm...


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