# My MOTU Rant



## AEF (Jul 1, 2022)

I like DP. I think it is the single most full featured DAW available, and if it worked, would be my far and away preference for creating midi and audio based music alike.

But it DOES. NOT. WORK. The endless bugs and new bugs on top of new bugs are so bad that the software is useless. The new update to 11.11 has made it impossible to use even on a basic session. This has been a theme of this software for decades now.

The 828ES I had? Absolute garbage that bricked within two weeks. The RME I replaced it with is an absolute GEM, never fails, its an absolutely perfect device. Ableton, Logic, Cubase, all have worked perfectly on this (Intel Apple) machine, minus a few issues here and there that ultimately don't impact the ability to use the software for daily use.

And the "nation" forum dedicated to helping? Likely composed of endless fake accounts that curiously show up to tell us that their version is "simply flawless" every time one of the half dozen crashes is asked about. The solutions offered such as "go back three OS versions" or "delete the prefs file again" are completely unacceptable in 2022 for a "professional" tool.

I highly recommend anyone to stay away from this company.


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## Karmand (Jul 1, 2022)

I was thinking about purchasing it on it's next sale; but maybe not now... you on a PC? Mac?


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## tressie5 (Jul 1, 2022)

I had an opportunity to try out DP 11 about six months or so ago. The result? It froze the first time I tried to launch it. When it did launch, it scanned my VST folders and decided that 1/3 of my plugins were deemed bad for DP and, therefore, blacklisted them. As for DP itself, it's kinda nice looking for the eyes, pretty, like Cubase or Samplitude. Unfortunately, it kept crashing my Windows 11 system and so was unusable, so I deleted it. And it's a shame because I've been aware of MOTU for years and their hardware is top notch.


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## Wunderhorn (Jul 1, 2022)

tressie5 said:


> pretty, like Cubase …


Wow. Someone called Cubase pretty.


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## cuttime (Jul 1, 2022)

AEF said:


> I like DP. I think it is the single most full featured DAW available, and if it worked, would be my far and away preference for creating midi and audio based music alike.
> 
> But it DOES. NOT. WORK. The endless bugs and new bugs on top of new bugs are so bad that the software is useless. The new update to 11.11 has made it impossible to use even on a basic session. This has been a theme of this software for decades now.
> 
> ...


I respect your frustration, but as a long time (20+ years) user of MOTU products, I have not had your experience. MOTU has had their problems with customer service, and much has been improved over the last couple of years. I have been a member of the “Nation” as long as mentioned, and since I have had private communication with said members for years, I can assure you that these are not fake accounts.

Since you don’t give any system credentials, I can’t offer any constructive advice. I only assume you are a frustrated user who has not had any good advice from anyone. Best of luck, and I hope you get things working.


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## tcollins (Jul 1, 2022)

I replaced my aging 828 mk2 with a 828 ES, and was really surprised by the sound quality. I was a bit nervous when I ordered it but it seems to be doing well and sounds great.
I also have been using DP for 20 years, so I have nothing to compare it to (except for Studio Vision, which it replaced), but it seems stable except for when I've loaded a JX8P emulator VST plug-in.

Customer service has always been good. You can call them on an actual phone and talk to an actual person and get an actual answer.


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## Zedcars (Jul 1, 2022)

Another happy 828ES and MIDI Express 128 user here. I’m on a Mac, previously Intel but now AS. I don’t recall ever having a problem with either. Never tried DP so can’t comment.

Prior to my 828ES I had an 828 mk2 which worked well for more than 15 years.

I wonder if the problems with MOTU products are more Windows users than Mac?


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## AEF (Jul 1, 2022)

I have a MAC. Its garbage on OS 12.4, where no other DAW has issues.


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## ennbr (Jul 1, 2022)

That's a shame your having trouble with Motu and Monterey. I have the Motu 1248 in my studio along with the Midi Express XT and in the living room on my Laptop I'm using the Motu M4 interface both running on Monterey and rock solid.

I don't use DP though I was a Pro Tools guy for years and switched to Studio One 3 years ago for my DAW


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## NuNativs (Jul 1, 2022)

Wunderhorn said:


> Wow. Someone called Cubase pretty.


Cubase ain't pretty as compared to say Logic with Colorizer, but it functions BEAUTIFULLY!


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## José Herring (Jul 1, 2022)

tressie5 said:


> I had an opportunity to try out DP 11 about six months or so ago. The result? It froze the first time I tried to launch it. When it did launch, it scanned my VST folders and decided that 1/3 of my plugins were deemed bad for DP and, therefore, blacklisted them. As for DP itself, it's kinda nice looking for the eyes, pretty, like Cubase or Samplitude. Unfortunately, it kept crashing my Windows 11 system and so was unusable, so I deleted it. And it's a shame because I've been aware of MOTU for years and their hardware is top notch.


Motu says DP will work on Windows PC. In my experience, they lie. DP started as a Mac only program and has been that for years before they decided to do a PC version. I did use DP 8 or 9 well enough for a bit on PC but since then it has been crash city every time I try. 
DP is by far one of the most musical friendly DAWS. I know lots of people that have used it every day for decades so it's not a slouch. If you get into Cubase you will also find many that claim it doesn't work on their system. 

I haven't really used DP in years but when I did there was one version that didn't work at all, then the next update fixed it. I think that's fairly common for all DAWS. They tend to rush out new versions before actually fixing the current version. Only Ableton Live holds off on yearly updates. Any other DAW they'll release it with bugs then try and patch it in .1 updates. Kind of a shame.


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## Michael Antrum (Jul 2, 2022)

tcollins said:


> You can call them on an actual phone and talk to an actual person and get an actual answer.


I had to sit down and have a large Scotch when I read that. The shock rather took the wind out of my sails.....


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## babylonwaves (Jul 2, 2022)

I have an 828ES and macOS 12.4 - no problem here.


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## carlc (Jul 2, 2022)

I started out on DP 2 with a MOTU 2408 mkII interface about 22 years ago. It is amazing how many features MOTU already had built into DP in the early days, and the interface was rock solid. The only thing missing was mic preamps which was easy to address with some separate gear. I also learned a lot from MOTU Nation. Unfortunately, so many competitors have come up during that time and MOTU has really struggled to keep pace. I moved on after DP10. I wish Apple had acquired MOTU instead of Logic. Maybe the new Studio Macs would have had an integrated audio interface


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## gsilbers (Jul 2, 2022)

3DC said:


> I find Cubase much more pleasing to the eye then any other DAW. Its never too busy to look at. No unnecessary clutter. Other DAW are too neatly organized or too tight for my taste with little icons, thin sliders or tinny scrollbars. Cubase is not perfect but with tons of customization and functions its almost there IMHO.



dear god, its my nightmares from 2009.


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## gsilbers (Jul 2, 2022)

AEF said:


> I like DP. I think it is the single most full featured DAW available, and if it worked, would be my far and away preference for creating midi and audio based music alike.
> 
> But it DOES. NOT. WORK. The endless bugs and new bugs on top of new bugs are so bad that the software is useless. The new update to 11.11 has made it impossible to use even on a basic session. This has been a theme of this software for decades now.
> 
> ...



yeah, MOTU has certainly falling behind overall. I did get the motu ultralite mk5 and its been very good i have to admit. as solid as my rme used to be. Too bad cue5 doesnt have mic preamp emulatio or something to get a nicer tone from the pres like uad volt, steinberg neve has.

and youll always find the fan clud crowd at the forums. Even pro tools which has to be the most hated of them all has fans being ok with subscriptions.


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 2, 2022)

I remember having some sort of MOTU interface which went belly up after a couple of months..which MOTU replaced for free with a newer model. That was pretty cool of them.

I repaid the favour by abandoning ship to Logic a year later. I'm sure karma has had it in for me since.


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## pinki (Jul 2, 2022)

I left after DP10. They really have lost the plot, going from the most stable DAW to the most unstable. It’s sad. They have had bugs from decades ago that are still unadressed in DP11. I moved on to Logic and realised I had been wasting my time since DP9.5 which was the last great version for Mac.

Hardware is a mixed bag: 828 Mk1 is a truly remarkable feat of engineering..I still have one working and sounding great now. Ultraltes also very good. But the Microbook..oh my…

They probably need new management? And definitely that freaky forum should be shut.


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## carlc (Jul 2, 2022)

pinki said:


> I left after DP10. They really have lost the plot, going from the most stable DAW to the most unstable. It’s sad. They have had bugs from decades ago that are still unadressed in DP11. I moved on to Logic and realised I had been wasting my time since DP9.5 which was the last great version for Mac.
> 
> Hardware is a mixed bag: 828 Mk1 is a truly remarkable feat of engineering..I still have one working and sounding great now. Ultraltes also very good. But the Microbook..oh my…
> 
> They probably need new management? And definitely that freaky forum should be shut.


I agree on DP10/11, they started chasing Ableton with some of the new clip features instead of stabilizing things, particularly for Windows users. 

Since I was still using my PCI-based 2408 interface, I switched to Windows. I didn’t want to pay insane prices for the Pro Macs just for the privilege of having a PCI slot. I will say that even today after 22 years my MOTU 2408 still works flawlessly.


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## JohnG (Jul 2, 2022)

DP 11.11 is rocking here, along with three MOTU audio interfaces and a MOTU Midi Express XT which is ancient.

No problems at all, and actually DP's new individual articulation offset feature is amazingly helpful too.

Not sure why the OP is having problems -- sympathies. I'm on Big Sur still, but not because of MOTU. Some of my other software is not officially supported on Monterey yet.


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## Pincel (Jul 2, 2022)

3DC said:


> I find Cubase much more pleasing to the eye then any other DAW. Its never too busy to look at. No unnecessary clutter. Other DAW are too neatly organized or too tight for my taste with little icons, thin sliders or tinny scrollbars. Cubase is not perfect but with tons of customization and functions its almost there IMHO.


Same, I always found Cubase pretty neat to look at to be honest, but I know a lot of people disagree for some reason. Beauty really is in the eye of the beholder. I've even heard some people say that Reaper is pretty, so...

Also, Cubase was my first love, so I may be more apologetic because of that.


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## HCMarkus (Jul 2, 2022)

Both products the OP trashes are working perfectly on my Mac Studio Ultra under macOS12.4. DP11 is excellent. My 828ES has been perfect, connected via USB or TB, since purchased in mid-2018.

I guess this in one of those YMMV situations, but I've had great results with MOTU since Performer v 1.3


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## HCMarkus (Jul 2, 2022)

babylonwaves said:


> I have an 828ES and macOS 12.4 - no problem here.


Just want to say thanks for releasing the DP version of Art Conductor. Excellent; I love it!


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## musicalweather (Jul 2, 2022)

20+ years DP user here. I'm still on Mojave, but DP 11 has been very solid and stable. I hear your frustration, though. I had a similar experience with Cubase 11, which has crashed _a lot_ on my system. Not sure what I can do to make it less crashy. 
As far as DP being unstable "for decades" -- that is not my experience at all. It's really been rock solid these twenty plus years. For a while, if I ran too many instrument plugins, it would crash, but that was easily solved by using VE Pro to offload those plugins. Anyway, DP seems to be handling all that better now, and I have less of a need for VE Pro. 
Just a different perspective.


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## Arbee (Jul 2, 2022)

I hope someone here is running DP11 successfully on Windows, stable and "rock solid". Anyone? I'd love to trial DP but I'm not converting to Mac for it.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 2, 2022)

AEF said:


> But it DOES. NOT. WORK.


What computer? Is this an M1 by any chance?

I haven't kept up with DP recently - or with any DAW for that matter (my machine won't go past Mojave and I haven't pulled the trigger on a Mac Studio yet) - so I'm not disputing your experience, just curious.


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## babylonwaves (Jul 2, 2022)

HCMarkus said:


> Just want to say thanks for releasing the DP version of Art Conductor. Excellent; I love it!


You're welcome  - MOTU did a great job the way they've implemented articulation switching.


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## coolbass (Jul 2, 2022)

This thread is garbage (it seems everyone thinks this is a proper term to use). DP11 here on Big Sur intel and M1. Both working very well and stable, even with lots of plugins.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 2, 2022)

coolbass said:


> This thread is garbage (it seems everyone thinks this is a proper term to use). DP11 here on Big Sur intel and M1. Both working very well and stable, even with lots of plugins.


That's usually the case when someone complains about a DAW - they have problems specific to their system and assume the problem is universal.

It can happen that a version of a DAW is unstable, but it's rare and typically when there's a new version with major changes - which is why I asked whether it was an M1 issue. These programs have been worked on constantly for - I think DP came out in 1985? 1985? - and the developers do know what they're doing.


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## charlieclouser (Jul 2, 2022)

Performer v1.22 on Macintosh Plus was rock solid for me... in 1986 anyway.

But I've used MOTU audio interfaces continuously since the late 1990's, through three hardware revisions of PCI setups all the way to today's AVB setup, and never had a single white noise blast, click or pop, or "interface not found" situation. Way better for me than RME Thunderbolt interfaces, which constantly dropped communication with the host, and went back to the store. Same computer, same TB cables... who knows. But MOTU hardware hasn't let me down once.


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## José Herring (Jul 2, 2022)

JohnG said:


> No problems at all, and actually DP's new individual articulation offset feature is amazingly helpful too.


This has me thinking I need to jump back on the DP bandwagon. If Cubase doesn't get this soon I'll need to seriously consider a midlife DAW change.


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## José Herring (Jul 2, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> Performer v1.22 on Macintosh Plus was rock solid for me... in 1986 anyway.
> 
> But I've used MOTU audio interfaces continuously since the late 1990's, through three hardware revisions of PCI setups all the way to today's AVB setup, and never had a single white noise blast, click or pop, or "interface not found" situation. Way better for me than RME Thunderbolt interfaces, which constantly dropped communication with the host, and went back to the store. Same computer, same TB cables... who knows. But MOTU hardware hasn't let me down once.


Man I've been eyeing that AVB setup for a while. Glad to hear it's rock solid. Time to put it back on the gear lust list. 
I'm using a TB3 interface right now and I have to admit the flimsy connection is something to worry about. I never have any drop outs but I swear a light breaze from passing by the connection will pop it out of place. Anytime I reach back there I knock the cable lose.


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## Chamberfield (Jul 2, 2022)

I'm on Mac OS Catalina 11.15 (2019 MacPro) and DP 11.04 and still have occasional bugs that crash sessions. It's useable but far from flawless. 

Curious what is the magic combo of OS and DP version that's stable?


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## charlieclouser (Jul 2, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Man I've been eyeing that AVB setup for a while. Glad to hear it's rock solid. Time to put it back on the gear lust list.
> I'm using a TB3 interface right now and I have to admit the flimsy connection is something to worry about. I never have any drop outs but I swear a light breaze from passing by the connection will pop it out of place. Anytime I reach back there I knock the cable lose.


To be clear, I am attaching my primary MOTU interface (the 112d) to the host computer via Thunderbolt-2, and then a 1248 attaches to the 112d via Cat5 / AVB. So I've never tried just plugging Cat5 directly from the primary interface into the computer's Ethernet jack.

But I have had the 1248 located 100 feet away in another building, with a Cat5e / AVB cable running across the yard to the 112d in my studio, and no problems at all. That's very convenient.


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## HCMarkus (Jul 2, 2022)

Chamberfield said:


> I'm on Mac OS Catalina 11.15 (2019 MacPro) and DP 11.04 and still have occasional bugs that crash sessions. It's useable but far from flawless.
> 
> Curious what is the magic combo of OS and DP version that's stable?


I worked all day today on a score. Solid all the way, no hiccups whatsoever.

The Magic Combo? There are just so many variables... CPU, GPU, Plugins, OS; it is really tough to say. DP is up to 11.11 now, FYI; as usual, bugs reported have been squashed and improvements made. Maybe worth a try for you.

With any DAW, one learns what to do and what to avoid. Currently, DP will crash on my Mac Studio Ultra if I drag an audio file to the desktop. So I just right-click on the file and Export to my desired location. I reported that bug to MOTU when I discovered it and it is reportedly on the To-Be-Fixed list.


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## pinki (Jul 3, 2022)

coolbass said:


> This thread is garbage (it seems everyone thinks this is a proper term to use). DP11 here on Big Sur intel and M1. Both working very well and stable, even with lots of plugins.


Why garbage? Someone very clearly labelled what they felt they needed to say. There are issues with DP ..many, many issues. For some it is stable, for many it is not. I have used DP since DP3 and had every version since. I know it intimately. Trust me …there are problems with Motu.


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## Al Maurice (Jul 3, 2022)

Arbee said:


> I hope someone here is running DP11 successfully on Windows, stable and "rock solid". Anyone? I'd love to trial DP but I'm not converting to Mac for it.


I'd say go for it.

Clean installs of DP work best for me, in fact this is not unusual for many DAWS I use.

DP has incorporated lots of new features, and although they separate out the concerns of each version, anything shared is still installed on Windows in either AppData and ProgramData folders under MOTU.

Leading to incompatibities with a potential to yield a crash prone experience.

As long as you are aware of any potential pitfalls of software organisation then you should be OK.


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## Arbee (Jul 3, 2022)

Al Maurice said:


> I'd say go for it.
> 
> Clean installs of DP work best for me, in fact this is not unusual for many DAWS I use.
> 
> ...


I only run one DAW PC, so nervous about installing DP11 alongside PT2022 in case I cripple both. Just one voice saying "I run DP11 on a Windows 10 PC and it's flawless" would get me there.

I'm also interested in the DP scoring functionality, could you live with that as your only scoring option? I currently run PT and Sibelius and flip notation between them quite nicely.


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## Noiseguild (Jul 3, 2022)

DP 11.11 is Rocksolid here too on intel 10.14, of course it has it’s flaws but I use it on a daily basis without trouble. Also use Logic, Ableton Live, Bitwig (which is really good in a completely different way) and Reason but for ‘normal’ film or orchestral work DP is my workhorse. When I try to work in Logic I return to DP in a matter of hours because when you get used to the multiple sequences/chunks in one file functionality you cannot work without it… Since this feature has been in DP for ages it always puzzled me it is not more commmon.


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## coolbass (Jul 3, 2022)

pinki said:


> Why garbage? Someone very clearly labelled what they felt they needed to say. There are issues with DP ..many, many issues. For some it is stable, for many it is not. I have used DP since DP3 and had every version since. I know it intimately. Trust me …there are problems with Motu.


I object to using terms like "absolute garbage" (from the opening post).


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## JohnG (Jul 3, 2022)

José Herring said:


> I've been eyeing that AVB setup for a while


It’s excellent, José.


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## HCMarkus (Jul 3, 2022)

Arbee said:


> I only run one DAW PC, so nervous about installing DP11 alongside PT2022 in case I cripple both. Just one voice saying "I run DP11 on a Windows 10 PC and it's flawless" would get me there.


Can you dual boot? I'm a Mac guy, so unfamiliar with Windows in-depth, but on my Mac Pro, I had several boot drives, my Working Boot Drive, and a second I used to test new stuff before committing to it. I'd clone my Working Boot Drive, then install the new stuff over the top of the clone. It's nice, fail-safe way to move forward.

If possible, you might want to try this approach and install the DP Demo (30 days free) on a clone boot drive.


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## gzapper (Jul 3, 2022)

AEF said:


> I like DP. I think it is the single most full featured DAW available, and if it worked, would be my far and away preference for creating midi and audio based music alike.
> 
> But it DOES. NOT. WORK. The endless bugs and new bugs on top of new bugs are so bad that the software is useless. The new update to 11.11 has made it impossible to use even on a basic session. This has been a theme of this software for decades now.


I've been using DP for years, just switched over to an M1 Max. Its rocking and very, very solid from my end. Its not totally crash proof but I go weeks without it crashing.

Posts like this are a poor way to deal with your own system problems.

More reasonable would be:
'DP is crashing on my system, I'm on xxx hardware, xxx os and using xxx plugins and whenever I do xxx it crashes'

Most likely its one plugin or vendor that's crashing your system. Unless you're on pc and then...


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## dts_marin (Jul 3, 2022)

The company is one of the friendliest I've ever experienced but I wish they'd test their DP releases more thoroughly. I've found a lot of embarrassing bugs that have no parallel in other DAWs.

The last two versions alone broke a lot of features that used to work perfectly for years. How is that even possible? I experience bugs caused by new features with every software but bugs that affect old code that spans decades?

I like DP but sometimes I get embarrassed for going through all the trouble that DP causes me with every single release. I feel that way also for Apple products. You ignore all the quirks etc. for a while but at some point it's too much too handle.


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## Nico5 (Jul 3, 2022)

NuNativs said:


> Cubase ain't pretty as compared to say Logic with Colorizer, but it functions BEAUTIFULLY!


I’d argue that a pretty piece of software has little chance at being functionally deep.


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## AlexRuger (Jul 3, 2022)

Nico5 said:


> I’d argue that a pretty piece of software has little chance at being functionally deep.


I'd argue that a pretty piece of software being functionally deep is the definition of "good software" 

(IMO Cubase is both but obviously the aesthetics are quite subjective).


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## Nico5 (Jul 3, 2022)

AlexRuger said:


> I'd argue that a pretty piece of software being functionally deep is the definition of "good software"
> 
> (IMO Cubase is both but obviously the aesthetics are quite subjective).


Yeah, since "pretty" is very much in the eye of the beholder, it's a difficult metric. 

While I use Cubase daily, and am generally happy enough with the Cubase UI, the word "pretty" never really crossed my mind as a descriptive adjective. 

Spitfire's BBCSO player app is more something I would think of in the context of "pretty". But imho it's a rather horrible user interface, where some mobile app designer's visual self actualization took precedence over users, who would like to control more functionality with fewer clicks. Not everyone always uses monster templates with separate tracks for each articulation.


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## gzapper (Jul 3, 2022)

Nico5 said:


> Yeah, since "pretty" is very much in the eye of the beholder, it's a difficult metric.
> 
> While I use Cubase daily, and am generally happy enough with the Cubase UI, the word "pretty" never really crossed my mind as a descriptive adjective.
> 
> Spitfire's BBCSO player app is more something I would think of in the context of "pretty". But imho it's a rather horrible user interface, where some mobile app designer's visual self actualization took precedence over users, who would like to control more functionality with fewer clicks. Not everyone always uses monster templates with separate tracks for each articulation.


Spitfire's BBCSP is a fine example of pretty but useless GUI.
I'd say Sibelius wins the prize for me sort of sort of nice looking but hopeless GUI.

I've been on DP too long to have an opinion, its all second nature including the really stupid parts about the consolidated window. But I don't go manual diving or searching forums on it the way I end up doing with other apps. Don't know if that's having worked with it or it being more clear. 

Ableton I find clear, not super pretty but very functional and clear.


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## Arbee (Jul 3, 2022)

HCMarkus said:


> Can you dual boot? I'm a Mac guy, so unfamiliar with Windows in-depth, but on my Mac Pro, I had several boot drives, my Working Boot Drive, and a second I used to test new stuff before committing to it. I'd clone my Working Boot Drive, then install the new stuff over the top of the clone. It's nice, fail-safe way to move forward.
> 
> If possible, you might want to try this approach and install the DP Demo (30 days free) on a clone boot drive.


Thanks, good idea. Call me lazy though, but my interest in DP is not so compelling that I want to set up anything special to try it unless I'm convinced it's worth the effort on Windows. So far, nothing I've read about DP on Windows gives me enough confidence to take that step.


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## Nico5 (Jul 3, 2022)

I sometimes still wonder how the DAW and plugin universe would have unfolded, if Apple would have bought MOTU, rather than eMagic.


A little historical rabbit hole of something made with MOTU Performer (predecessor of DP)*:

1988 parody of Prokofiev's "Peter and the Wolf" made by Wendy Carlos in collaboration with Weird Al Jankowitz:



* source for MOTU Performer attribution: https://www.wendycarlos.com/motu.html


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## cuttime (Jul 3, 2022)

Nico5 said:


> I sometimes still wonder how the DAW and plugin universe would have unfolded, if Apple would have bought MOTU, rather than eMagic.
> 
> 
> A little historical rabbit hole of something made with MOTU Performer (predecessor of DP)*:
> ...



Beware the infamous Wendy Carlos takedown notice!


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## Reid Rosefelt (Jul 3, 2022)

Michael Antrum said:


> I had to sit down and have a large Scotch when I read that. The shock rather took the wind out of my sails.....


I have often phoned Steinberg. And in every situation I've received immediate help. Of course, I'm in the US and I don't know what it's like in other countries.

How to prepare for the call


https://helpcenter.steinberg.de/hc/en-us/articles/206709210



844-358-4022 Monday through Friday 9 am - 1 pm EST.


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## charlieclouser (Jul 3, 2022)

A tidbit of MOTU trivia: when I arrived a week early to move into my dorm room for my first year of college in 1981, there was almost nobody there yet. But as I set up my cinderblock-and-milk-crate shelves, I heard someone noodling on trombone down the hallway. Great! Another musician! So I hunted down the sound and met the phantom trombonist, a guy named Jim Cooper, the first fellow student I actually met on campus.

Almost immediately after college, Jim went to work at Mark Of The Unicorn. He is still there, although now he's the vice president. Forty (!!!) years on, I still see him every NAMM show.

What do I win?


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## ChrisHarrison (Jul 3, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> A tidbit of MOTU trivia: when I arrived a week early to move into my dorm room for my first year of college in 1981, there was almost nobody there yet. But as I set up my cinderblock-and-milk-crate shelves, I heard someone noodling on trombone down the hallway. Great! Another musician! So I hunted down the sound and met the phantom trombonist, a guy named Jim Cooper, the first fellow student I actually met on campus.
> 
> Almost immediately after college, Jim went to work at Mark Of The Unicorn. He is still there, although now he's the vice president. Forty (!!!) years on, I still see him every NAMM show.
> 
> What do I win?


Do you ever mess with DP?


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## charlieclouser (Jul 3, 2022)

ChrisHarrison said:


> Do you ever mess with DP?


Yeah, I own a copy but it's a few version behind current. I used Performer v1.22 for a few years back in the day, then Southworth Total Music and OneStep, then Vision+StudioVision, then finally switched to Logic in 1994. I did use DP for a couple of projects about ten years ago, and there are definitely a few features I wish Logic would steal. Chunks reminds me of StudioVision's "sub-sequences" feature, which was fantastic for songwriting or using a single project file for a whole film, where each cue is a Chunk or sub-sequence within a single master project file. The only drag about that is all Chunks / sub-sequence share the same common set of instantiated instruments / plugins / etc., not sure if that's changed in recent years to allow each Chunk to have different instruments and mix settings, but I imagine they've tackled that. 

And of course MOTU has always had the most advanced tempo / calculation / click features for scoring by a large margin. I used to use Cue Sheet and Q software to do tempo calculations back in the day, and even had an Auricle operator on a few sessions, but over the years I gradually figured out how to do what I needed in fully manual mode, so now I just bash away at Logic's tempo list editor until I'm satisfied.

But I do know a few scoring guys who still use DP and although there are frustrations, they rely on Chunks and the tempo stuff, so they're not likely to switch any time soon.


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## jmauz (Jul 3, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> A tidbit of MOTU trivia: when I arrived a week early to move into my dorm room for my first year of college in 1981, there was almost nobody there yet. But as I set up my cinderblock-and-milk-crate shelves, I heard someone noodling on trombone down the hallway. Great! Another musician! So I hunted down the sound and met the phantom trombonist, a guy named Jim Cooper, the first fellow student I actually met on campus.


What dorm? The roach infested 150 Mass Ave building or the rat infested Hemenway dorm?


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## HCMarkus (Jul 3, 2022)

A big reason folks who use _any_ DAW don't want to switch is familiarity. In my case, DP does everything I need and lets me create music the way I like to work. Spending time learning and setting up a new DAW is time away from actual production and income generation. It means less time with my family and friends. 

I won't claim that DP is superior or inferior to any other DAW, because I don't _know_ other DAWs the way I know DP. Perhaps another DAW would better suit my use case _if I knew it the way I know DP_. If I was just starting out, I'd probably go with Logic, if for no other reason than the boatload of decent VIs Apple ships with it. But, after years of building my workflow and the tools I need to accomplish it, I don't need those VIs. And I don't need the headache of grokking the new set of conventions, features and limitations another DAW is guaranteed to bring with it.

What I _do_ know for certain is DP doesn't get in my way. It works great on my Mac Studio Ultra system. I don't feel creatively constrained in any way.

So, I'm just gonna' keep getting work done.


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## charlieclouser (Jul 4, 2022)

jmauz said:


> What dorm? The roach infested 150 Mass Ave building or the rat infested Hemenway dorm?


Hell naw, we went to a bougie ultra-liberal-arts college, where there are no required courses, instead of grades you get "evaluations", and you "design your own academic program". 

Since the place was founded in 1970, every building was only 11 years old when we got there, and all the buildings were in that concrete+brick seventies brutalism style which made for some great natural reverb!


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## John Judd (Jul 4, 2022)

My 2 cents regarding MOTU:

(Windows User)

Used an Audio Express interface for years. Occasionally it would emit a screaming, super piercing sound…..regardless of DAW. One had to exit the session and deal with it. I had found a way to deal with it, but never fixed it despite a ton of research on what to do. Eventually abandoned the interface. 

Used DP8, DP9, DP10 on Windows. Now THAT is the deepest DAW I’ve ever seen. Such a tremendous amount of features…..overwhelmingly so. It’s the Omnisphere of DAWs. Audio editing and film score features were amazing. In another lifetime, DP would have been my DAW of choice. It also looked absolutely beautiful. That having been said: on Windows it felt just a little sluggish. Nothing terrible, just slower than any of my other DAWs. I did have my share of bug reports to submit and they were always responsive (and fixed them eventually). I remember having a final render problem that sent me to the moon. At MOTU nation I received the ‘it’s a bad memory stick’ standard response…..no, it wasn’t the memory stick. As far as stability, I remember having a handful of crashes here and there. All around, I didn’t find it to be the most intuitive DAW but really did appreciate the robust feature set. Not as reliable as my other DAWs, but DP had waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more features for film. I left DP, conflicted.


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## pmountford (Jul 4, 2022)

MOTU 828ES user here. Whenever I've had any issues, MOTU support has been golden.


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## AlexRuger (Jul 4, 2022)

jmauz said:


> What dorm? The roach infested 150 Mass Ave building or the rat infested Hemenway dorm?


To be fair the Hemenway dorms were also roach infested.


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## José Herring (Jul 4, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> To be clear, I am attaching my primary MOTU interface (the 112d) to the host computer via Thunderbolt-2, and then a 1248 attaches to the 112d via Cat5 / AVB. So I've never tried just plugging Cat5 directly from the primary interface into the computer's Ethernet jack.
> 
> But I have had the 1248 located 100 feet away in another building, with a Cat5e / AVB cable running across the yard to the 112d in my studio, and no problems at all. That's very convenient.


Makes total sense. At one point I was all into getting a full ethernet thing going. Even contemplated ways to just go directly from my DAW to my speakers via Ethernet. I was trying to figure out ways to use Dante's virtual soundcard and networking some speakers via Dante. I still think it can be done but would it be worth it. Not sure.

That's when AVB became more appealing to me. Getting an AVB box then doing unlimited network audio with it even including off site networking. So you could set up a network on a dubstage somewhere and just have your tracks playing while they dub. Any changes then you can make in your own studio. Dreaming really but maybe that's already possible. I don't keep up unfortunately with the latest DAW networking capabilities.

Do you experience any real latency increase in having your AVB box 100 feet away? I know potentially the signal should travel and near light speed but in reality does it?


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## jmauz (Jul 4, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> Hell naw, we went to a bougie ultra-liberal-arts college, where there are no required courses, instead of grades you get "evaluations", and you "design your own academic program".
> 
> Since the place was founded in 1970, every building was only 11 years old when we got there, and all the buildings were in that concrete+brick seventies brutalism style which made for some great natural reverb!


Oh for a moment I thought you attended Bezerklee. My mistake.


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## charlieclouser (Jul 4, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Makes total sense. At one point I was all into getting a full ethernet thing going. Even contemplated ways to just go directly from my DAW to my speakers via Ethernet. I was trying to figure out ways to use Dante's virtual soundcard and networking some speakers via Dante. I still think it can be done but would it be worth it. Not sure.
> 
> That's when AVB became more appealing to me. Getting an AVB box then doing unlimited network audio with it even including off site networking. So you could set up a network on a dubstage somewhere and just have your tracks playing while they dub. Any changes then you can make in your own studio. Dreaming really but maybe that's already possible. I don't keep up unfortunately with the latest DAW networking capabilities.
> 
> Do you experience any real latency increase in having your AVB box 100 feet away? I know potentially the signal should travel and near light speed but in reality does it?


No latency issues due to having the secondary interface connected by Cat5, regardless of cable length. It's pretty amazing actually.

I will say that in order to pass signals between interfaces with AVB (or perhaps it's just MOTU's implementation of it?) you need to assign channels to "AVB Streams" in 8-channel bricks, and it can get a little confusing. And, since there can be individual CueMix mixers for each hardware interface (if you want there to be), the first time I was setting up my system I definitely sat and stared at the screen for a minute, trying to figure out what the hell was going on. But once it was configured, it has worked flawlessly for many years, never forgetting the elaborate routing scheme I set up, even when I operate with only one interface connected, or do other dumb things. It's been so reliable that when, after three or four years, I DO want to change something, I realize it's been years since I looked at the configuration screens and I have to sit for a minute and go, "Okay... right...hmmmm."

On my rig the 112d is the primary interface, with 64 channels of MADI going each way to a separate ProTools print rig, 8 channels of AES outs driving my monitors, and 8 channels of ADAT coming from an RME ADI-192dd (which takes 8 unsynced AES/SPDIF inputs and sample rate converts and merges them into a single ADAT stream). And I still have 16-out + 24-in of AES and 24-out + 16-in of ADAT sitting unused, just on that one box! Since the 112d does not have any analog i/o whatsoever, not even a headphone jack, I use the 1248 connected via AVB to the 112d for all the other stuff. On the 1248 I have 8x balanced analog i/o, 4x mic inputs, 2x hi-z inputs, and 2x headphone outs - plus 16 channels of ADAT that are unused at the moment. It's pretty amazing.

In my template, outs 1-6 are the composite mix of all the stems, which are on outputs 7-60. So those all feed the ProTools rig via MADI outs 1-60. Fine.

But I also want the stereo output of CueMix to feed my front L+R speakers so I can hear live guitar or synths without putting any tracks into record-enable and monitoring through my DAW software. To do this, the front L+R speakers need to be connected to the output of CueMix instead of directly to DAW outs 1+2 - instead, DAW outs 1+2 need to go INTO CueMix to be mixed with all those live input sources, and then CueMix outputs feed my front L+R speakers. Okay, a little confusing, but no problem, and it doesn't add any latency.

But, I do NOT want that mix of DAW 1+2 and CueMix to go over to the ProTools rig via MADI - I want that to be clean, with no possibility of accidentally printing any of those live inputs. Easy. Since my speakers are connected to AES outs 1-6, the routing is: DAW outs 1-64 to MADI outs 1-64. DAW outs multed to also go to 1+2 to CueMix ins 1+2. CueMix outs 1+2 to AES outs 1+2. DAW outs 3-6 multed to also go to AES outs 3-6. The MOTU routing grid can easily mult signals to do this, so DAW outs 1+2 feed BOTH the MADI outs AND the inputs to CueMix. This means that my live guitar noodling (and whatever other sources are un-muted in CueMix) will NEVER go over to ProTools, but WILL go to the L+R speakers. It's pretty great, but took a minute to figure out.

In a nutshell, since the CueMix instance I'm using is "running" on the 1248, which is the secondary interface, I needed to assign DAW outs 1+2 to both the MADI outs 1+2 and two inputs on AVB Stream #1. Then, CueMix on the 1248 receives audio from AVB Stream #1, and then sends its output to the local headphone outs on the 1248, the main + monitor analog outs on the 1248, AND back to the 112d via AVB Stream #1, where it can be sent to AES outs 1+2 on the 112d to drive the L+R speakers. Other AVB Streams are used to bring the hardware inputs on the 1248 back to the DAW, so they can be recorded clean, without going through CueMix. Sounds a little confusing, and at first it is... until you think of AVB Streams as if they were 8-channel analog snakes, like "software DB-25 connections". Then it all clicked for me.

One nice thing is that user-assigned names for hardware i/o ports are transmitted across AVB streams and published to the DAW, so when I select a record source for an audio track in Logic, I see names like "Guitar Input 2" and "MKS-80 Left" instead of "AVB Stream 1-channel 2" or whatever. And when you're looking at that routing grid you can collapse+expand each chunk of i/o so you don't have to endlessly scroll across 300 channels. 

Since the MOTU setup and CueMix is all done through a web browser (!!!) which means there is no MOTU app to be updated or made M1 native / Monterey compatible / etc. And it also means you can operate CueMix from an iPad or phone, so in theory a live rig could have each musician adjusting their monitor mix from their phone (!!!). Of course this could also work in a studio setup, so no need for dedicated remote hardware like on an Aviom or whatever.

I haven't used a Dante rig, but those appear to be a little more elegant - or at least, as elegant as they can be when you're looking at one of those checkerboard grids to assign channels. I would imagine that with Dante you're not dealing with those 8-channel "AVB Streams", and instead you're just looking at a pool of all connected i/o by user-assigned names.

When I got the AVB rig, Dante Virtual Soundcard wasn't out yet, so I would have needed a PCIe card like the Focusrite RedNet-128 card. Since I am on Mac Pro cylinders, no PCIe, and I wasn't about to get a PCIe chassis just for that. Plus, AVB is open-source, so no licensing or copy protection needed to get the audio hardware up and running. Imagine if there is a screwup in your Dante Via license, and your entire audio interface network won't light up? *shudder*

I didn't get into AVB because I needed networking or multi-room access to shared audio interface resources, which is a big reason to get into Dante (or AVB for that matter) - I only wanted a certain combination of audio connections, and the AVB combo of the 112d and 1248 was how I got there.

For a minute I tried an RME FireFace UCX, which connects to the host via Thunderbolt and has MADI, 8x analog, headphone, and a little bit of ADAT all in one box. But it couldn't stay connected to my host! I know people love RME, and I've had good luck with PCIe RME cards way back when, but that particular box kept dropping connection, on the same computer and with the same cables that I use for the MOTU stuff. So back to the store it went.

But the MOTU AVB rig has NEVER emitted a noise blast, doesn't pop or click, solidly locks the entire rig to external word clock or syncs to embedded clock on any ADAT or AES input, never throws a "interface not found" dialog, and in general has been solid as a rock for years. If I wasn't such a stone-age old-guy who wants to use a separate ProTools print rig, I could just use the 1248 connected via Thunderbolt to the host and skip all the AVB Stream nonsense. But I like having a separate ProTools rig, so there ya go....


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## dterry (Jul 4, 2022)

Arbee said:


> I hope someone here is running DP11 successfully on Windows, stable and "rock solid". Anyone? I'd love to trial DP but I'm not converting to Mac for it.


I have had DP on Windows since v8, and now have 11.11, but it's performance isn't great compared to other DAWs, and DP on Mac (OSX latest, M1). It isn't bad, but it doesn't match Studio One running identical large scoring templates (Nuendo and Cubase were once great on Windows, but have fallen behind in performance). The biggest lag in performance seems proportional to bussing and routing, specifically, how many VEPro instances are connected with I/O. I've even simplified my DP template down the bare minimum (for me) with VEPro connections, I/O and no stems. Still a bit sluggish compared to the same thing on Mac.

DP's GUI still suffers from decades-old design choices built around Apple's graphics system and early Motorola chips, leading to tiny graphics that are harder to read under PC-Intel/other graphics systems. Even with recent updates, these still don't scale well even with the relatively new "scaling" (aka, GUI zoom).

DP's mixer and audio editing in general are not as efficient and flexible as other DAWs. I have edited audio programs in DP, using as many shortcuts and DP-unique features as I could just to give it an honest assessment - it's fine, but there are faster, easier options for mixing (DP's inverted track solo concept is one problem).

The positives: DP's scoring and film features (chunks, etc) are excellent; and MIDI timing seems tighter than other DAWs though I've never found this to be quantifiably true. I also have DP 11 on an M1 Macbook Pro, and while I haven't put it to a full 1:1 comparison with a large scoring template (started, but will take time) - it definitely looks better on Mac (at least Apple displays) and runs more smoothly. 

On the Macbook, using the trackpad to scroll across the mixer is silky smooth. On windows (10) using a Kensington trackball wheel it is sluggish, with frequent lags (even taking into account the obvious differences in the mouse vs. trackpad - the Kensington with DP on Mac is also better than it is on Windows). DP's mixer in a large template on Windows just does not scroll well, regardless of the method used. It is fine on Mac.

On Windows, zooming the Track window during playback causes playback to stop momentarily. All of this leads to a sluggish, unstable experience in Windows, even if it doesn't crash and is technically stable. Sometimes DAW developers do not understand that the fluidity of working with a DAW makes a huge difference in how we perceive it, and how enjoyable, or frustrating it can be to work with. Steinberg doesn't get this, though I do use Nuendo daily, especially at work.

Regardless of platform, DP's articulation handling is, in my opinion, the best of any DAW, and I have used it in Nuendo, Studio One, and Logic Pro X. Quick to setup; highly configurable, and easy to edit articulation lanes.

If you haven't already, try the DP trial. See how you like it. It works on Windows, better for some than others,


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## Arbee (Jul 4, 2022)

dterry said:


> I have had DP on Windows since v8, and now have 11.11, but it's performance isn't great compared to other DAWs, and DP on Mac (OSX latest, M1). It isn't bad, but it doesn't match Studio One running identical large scoring templates (Nuendo and Cubase were once great on Windows, but have fallen behind in performance). The biggest lag in performance seems proportional to bussing and routing, specifically, how many VEPro instances are connected with I/O. I've even simplified my DP template down the bare minimum (for me) with VEPro connections, I/O and no stems. Still a bit sluggish compared to the same thing on Mac.
> 
> DP's GUI still suffers from decades-old design choices built around Apple's graphics system and early Motorola chips, leading to tiny graphics that are harder to read under PC-Intel/other graphics systems. Even with recent updates, these still don't scale well even with the relatively new "scaling" (aka, GUI zoom).
> 
> ...


Thanks for taking the time to post such a comprehensive reply, very much appreciated. I don't run huge templates so I'm more confident now to give it a try.


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## HCMarkus (Jul 5, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> It's been so reliable that when, after three or four years, I DO want to change something, I realize it's been years since I looked at the configuration screens and I have to sit for a minute and go, "Okay... right...hmmmm."


This. A nice problem to have! Since putting it together for my studio four years ago, I've only looked at my routing page as a guide when trying to help others set up their interfaces. 



charlieclouser said:


> And it also means you can operate CueMix from an iPad or phone, so in theory a live rig could have each musician adjusting their monitor mix from their phone (!!!). Of course this could also work in a studio setup, so no need for dedicated remote hardware like on an Aviom or whatever.


Performers love this in the studio. I set up a drum submix on a fader, so they have simple, personal mix control.


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## ChrisHarrison (Jul 5, 2022)

I really like my warp feature in Cubase to handle tempo. Would love to see what the hype is about DP. Haven’t done a feature, but the fear of a huge 2 hour movie vs the chunking feature seems like it would help. For now, I’ll stick with Cubase. Would love to see someone give a thorough video covering DP. Seems like there are very very few people actually teaching DPs features that some say are game changing.


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## AlexRuger (Jul 6, 2022)

ChrisHarrison said:


> Seems like there are very very few people actually teaching DPs features that some say are game changing.


It's because, frankly, they're not game-changing. 

DP was an impressive DAW in the early 2000s, but since then it's gotten farther and farther behind. There is literally no compelling reason to use it over something else in 2022, unless of course you just subjectively prefer it, which I'd never argue with.

But for example: Chunks isn't the killer feature everyone claims it to be -- it's really just an alternative form of file management, and IMO on balance it's a worse one than just hitting "save as" more often. Chunks introduce some seriously huge problems -- V-Racks can't be automated, for instance, and the more Chunks you add, the more sluggish DP becomes (though MOTU did improve this aspect a bit in DP 11). And speaking of sluggish, adding more than roughly 32 internal busses brings DP to its knees, even on a decked out new Mac Pro. Giving VEP more than a handful of returns per instance makes DP unusable, whereas I've seen Cubase templates with over 200 returns per instance (all else being equal). That's absurd.

People love to claim that DP's MIDI features are unparalleled, but to anyone who's ever taken a serious survey of all the DAWs available, that's just laughable. You can't quantize with a single key command, it doesn't have multiple CC lanes, it doesn't have anything even remotely approaching Cubase's Logical Editor, etc etc etc. The workflow is just _objectively _slower, requiring more windows and more clicks and offering fewer optimizations/customizations than the competitors. 

A few more issues that immediately come to mind: you can't add sends to multiple tracks at once, you can't simply solo a track with one click/key command unless you're looking at the mixer, you can't bounce using MIDI tracks as the source, you redundantly have to select something in the edit window in order to even make the bounce function enabled, there's no "edit selection = track selection" option, you can't have tracks automatically record enable, in order to record enable multiple tracks at once you first have to enable Multi Record (which has the unfortunate side effect of seeming randomly changing all your MIDI tracks' inputs via removing the "any" option, for some reason), input monitoring has far too many options under Studio/Audio Patch Thru and yet none of them operate how input monitoring is supposed to operate, etc...DP often feels like "death by a thousand cuts" in terms of UX. 

Plus, DP has a bad habit of introducing half-baked features that are never touched again. Look no further than the Ableton-esque Clips window (a feature no one asked for), and the fact that, in order to use discrete MIDI Clips, I also have to use the nerfed alternative Clips-only piano roll. When this was released back in 2019 with DP 10, I asked MOTU support when they'd change this, and they said they were planning on doing this in the first couple of maintenance updates. Flash forward an entire major version and more later, and it's still remained completely untouched.

I hate to be anything other than positive because the folks over at MOTU are great and I like them a lot, and like others have said in this thread, their hardware is really, really fantastic. But there's a reason that, here in the LA composer community, DP is either seen as a total joke, or is the only DAW the composer you're asking has ever used. There's very little in-between; in my experience, even those in the latter group tend to still hate it -- it's just "the devil they know." I don't think I know a single composer who's given all the major DAWs a serious, long-term try, and still settled on DP. 

It's a shame because it really does have incredible potential, but using it nowadays feels like stepping back in time. I mean, DP only just introduced actual standalone instrument tracks _this year. _I think that alone is pretty emblematic of what I'm describing here.


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## machinesworking (Jul 6, 2022)

AlexRuger said:


> It's because, frankly, they're not game-changing.
> 
> DP was an impressive DAW in the early 2000s, but since then it's gotten farther and farther behind. There is literally no compelling reason to use it over something else in 2022, unless of course you just subjectively prefer it, which I'd never argue with.
> 
> But for example: Chunks isn't the killer feature everyone claims it to be -- it's really just an alternative form of file management, and IMO on balance it's a worse one than just hitting "save as" more often.


 I get that you're done with DP, that's fine, but I don't get that last sentence at all. Chunks IMO has advantages, yes you can just save various versions of a song etc. but there's a total elegance to having a MIDI version of a song in the same project as the rendered to audio version. Chunks have multiple uses, before Clips I used them to tune the hardware in the studio and load the SysEx etc. 

Personally I've switched from DP2 to Logic 4-7 then back to DP7 onwards. I attempted to use Reaper or Logic instead before DP got MPE, and I've always used Live, dabbled with Bitwig. Plus being a bit of a nerd I've trouble shot setups for people using the other DAWs as well. I do choose to use DP, without feeling the need to switch to Cubase, Studio One, Logic, Reaper etc. 

Oh and you can set up quantize presets to key commands which gives you automatic quantization.


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## AlexRuger (Jul 6, 2022)

machinesworking said:


> I get that you're done with DP, that's fine, but I don't get that last sentence at all. Chunks IMO has advantages, yes you can just save various versions of a song etc. but there's a total elegance to having a MIDI version of a song in the same project as the rendered to audio version.


By "audio version" do you mean a single mix, or stems, or something else?


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## pinki (Jul 6, 2022)

AlexRuger said:


> I asked MOTU support when they'd change this, and they said they were planning on doing this in the first couple of maintenance updates. Flash forward an entire major version and more later, and it's still remained completely untouched.


I pretty much agree with most of your post but I emphatically agree with this part.
There is a bug in the notation (playback only notes..) that has been there since the beginning of time, acknowledged many times by Motu, and it just never gets fixed. I can only conclude that they can’t fix it, that if they did there would be untold consequences elsewhere in the program, so they can’t risk fixing it.

I guess that’s the problem of being old. DP is very very old and presumably many employees have come and gone over the years each with their own take on how to code DP, and then left…
DP is fat and old and beautiful. I love it. We grew up together. But hell, no way it’s an option in 2022.


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## dterry (Jul 6, 2022)

AlexRuger said:


> I don't think I know a single composer who's given all the major DAWs a serious, long-term try, and still settled on DP.


I'm sure I'm the exception, but I have done exactly that. I tried all of the major DAWs for film scoring, and not just a cursory glance, but replicating my full template in each and scoring a client project - Nuendo, ProTools, Studio One, and DP. I recently began setting one up in Logic, but due to the lack of support for multiple midi ports in VEPro/AU, and being far too busy at the moment, that is on hold. I may, at some point, create a walkthrough video series on each.

My process involved learning each DAW's most efficient way to accomplish common tasks, and adapting anything customizable (key commands) to my preferred workflow. I compared the speed of setting up a large template (up to 800 tracks); routing efficiency; articulation handling; midi recording and editing; notation and key editor workflows; dialog window systems, etc.

A summary would be too long to post here, but the basic take away is just a confirmation of what every one here already knows - no DAW is perfect. Each has pros and cons and usually in different areas. It really comes down to making the most of whichever DAW strikes one as most enjoyable, efficient, and/or available. And if none of the above applies, just pick one and make it work. That's my opinion at least.


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## AlexRuger (Jul 6, 2022)

dterry said:


> I'm sure I'm the exception, but I have done exactly that. I tried all of the major DAWs for film scoring, and not just a cursory glance, but replicating my full template in each and scoring a client project - Nuendo, ProTools, Studio One, and DP. I recently began setting one up in Logic, but due to the lack of support for multiple midi ports in VEPro/AU, and being far too busy at the moment, that is on hold. I may, at some point, create a walkthrough video series on each.
> 
> My process involved learning each DAW's most efficient way to accomplish common tasks, and adapting anything customizable (key commands) to my preferred workflow. I compared the speed of setting up a large template (up to 800 tracks); routing efficiency; articulation handling; midi recording and editing; notation and key editor workflows; dialog window systems, etc.
> 
> A summary would be too long to post here, but the basic take away is just a confirmation of what every one here already knows - no DAW is perfect. Each has pros and cons and usually in different areas. It really comes down to making the most of whichever DAW strikes one as most enjoyable, efficient, and/or available. And if none of the above applies, just pick one and make it work. That's my opinion at least.


Absolutely man! Glad you've found a solution that's working for you. I went through a similar thing a long while back (FYI for anyone else considering doing a similar thing, I'd suggest using Pro Tools' key commands as your "base," as that DAW is the only not-customizable one). 

And yeah, I totally agree, though I'll re-word it slightly: rather than "no DAW is perfect," I'd say "all DAWs are bad, but you have to find the one that is the least bad for your needs/preferences."


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## machinesworking (Jul 6, 2022)

AlexRuger said:


> By "audio version" do you mean a single mix, or stems, or something else?


 I mean at some point you render MIDI versions of VI's to audio, then mix down, or at least that's how I work. In most other DAWs every version of a song has to be in a separate Project. Chunks can be a way to document various stages of a song, it's one of the reasons I don't get why other DAWs haven't taken some version of this? but it's mostly odd versions like what Reaper does. But yeah, single mixes, extended versions and stems can all be in the same project. There are plenty of areas of DP where it's clunky etc. but Chunks if used for what they excel at isn't one IMO.


AlexRuger said:


> And yeah, I totally agree, though I'll re-word it slightly: rather than "no DAW is perfect," I'd say "all DAWs are bad, but you have to find the one that is the least bad for your needs/preferences."


 That's basically it. I went on a search for an MPE DAW about 4 years ago because my main DAWs DP and Live did not do MPE. Since I had used Logic for years it was easy to get back into, and Reaper if you're a tinkerer is pretty amazing. Bitwig is fantastic, but all of them have fatal flaws, I can't stand articulation mapping in Logic, it's roll your own and not even worth messing with in Reaper, and Bitwig will never get features like that. 

I mean in the bigger picture they're all amazing, but they all have things that are WTF? moments. I would probably end up in Cubase or Studio One if not in DP, and even cursory looks at them and I can tell where I would find them clunky compared to DP. 

Just one final thought on this, I started on DP, a few minor bugs in 2.7 had me running to Logic 4, I stayed there with The whole ex smoker attitude about Logic's efficiency compared to DP. Then Logic 7.0 had crashes on my system I could never solve, just a mess. It cured my thought that somehow there are bullet proof DAWs. I'm back on DP now, and for the most part I'm happy with it, like all of them I can name every area where I think they could improve it, but I quickly realized this was true with other DAWs I've tried.


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## Al Maurice (Jul 7, 2022)

Most of these things we tend to moan about, go way back. I mean what is a chunk for instance.

According to the midi spec it includes anything from header information, to data that now could be considered as a track.

So MOTU just repurposed and adapted it to fit newer scenarios instead, enabling the ability for film rolls to start at different start times according to timecode.

It would be nice if rather than leaning over a feature from another DAW, which seems out of place to their core marketplace. They just ensure the core functionality is slick and works, without any glitches.

When working with midi let's say you've converted or recorded it as a clip, rather than a midi region in DP speak, you need to edit a note here or there, and then find a massive blank where the clip is. Other DAWs get this right and integrate this into their UI.


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## machinesworking (Jul 7, 2022)

Al Maurice said:


> Most of these things we tend to moan about, go way back. I mean what is a chunk for instance.
> 
> According to the midi spec it includes anything from header information, to data that now could be considered as a track.
> 
> ...


Do you mean how Clips have their own separate editor? That does sort of bother me. I seems like MOTU think you should use Clips, but at some point convert it all back to MIDI regions. I wouldn't have a problem with that if the Drum editor at the very least worked with Clips. If there's one area where DP is behind even Logic it is how Clips are treated as completely different than the region based MIDI that preceded it. All told though, I'm really glad Clips came about, I have always liked how Clips in Live and other clip based DAWs allow for complex repeating automation separate from the VI or FX by using blank clips pointing to that VI etc.


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## El Buhdai (Jul 7, 2022)

AEF said:


> I like DP. I think it is the single most full featured DAW available, and if it worked, would be my far and away preference for creating midi and audio based music alike.
> 
> But it DOES. NOT. WORK. The endless bugs and new bugs on top of new bugs are so bad that the software is useless. The new update to 11.11 has made it impossible to use even on a basic session. This has been a theme of this software for decades now.
> 
> ...


Sounds like the Microsoft of audio software. I have yet to use a piece of Microsoft software that works consistently and doesn't drive me up the wall except the Xbox 360 OS and maybe Snipping Tool 

Everything else I've had the displeasure of using from them (Teams, Xbox One OS, Onedrive, OneNote, Windows 7 Windows 8, Windows 8.1, Visual Studio 2019, Visual Studio Code, Windows 10, my Surface Pro, Skype, Outlook, Word, Powerpoint, Excel, the list is endless...) has me thoroughly convinced that Microsoft has way too much legacy spaghetti code bogging everything down, and/or they don't have a single real developer on their payroll.

There are few things that annoy me like bad software, so I feel your pain my friend.


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 7, 2022)

Every daw out there has annoyances. It can be frustrating. Every single one of them has run me into a brick wall on something er other. Sometimes they are even showstoppers but often they are just annoyances where some other daw did something so much smarter and we can’t believe the one we chose to use would be so stupid about some thing. Or we wish our chosen daw would pull off the blind folds and add a feature that other daw has which seems like a no brainer. It’s always in every single case a compromise.

They each all have some cool features thst set them apart as well. For me the chunks feature of DP is unparalleled by any other daw and is the main killer feature that has me using it. I will roll with the punches and work through the annoyances just for that feature.

Knock on wood

Vracks are also unique and useful though with vepro it’s somewhat redundant. It’s a big annoyance to me that after all this time motu hasn’t made it possible to automate vracks or the plugins hosted in a vrack. Still they can be useful. You can automate midi into a vrack plugin.

DP’s articulation management is probably the best one on the market today even though it fell short on a couple of things that will probably never be rectified at this point. It’s still quite good.

There is a webinar video about using the clips feature in some creative ways I had not thought of before and all dp users should check that out.

These daws, all of them, are big and complicated pieces of software. The level of complexity is way beyond most other software of any kind. We are lucky to have them. It takes decades for them to fully develop. Unfortunately decades can also lead to code rot, so that just is what it is.

There is nothing new to discuss all the problems of a daw. They all have a long list. That situation will not change anytime soon. I personally think DP is right up there with cubase in terms of depth. Cubase has pros and cons too. Logicpro in my opinion is in a downward sprial. I enjoy using it but it keeps presenting showstopper problems. It’s inexpensive at this point and had a place for newbies because of the cheap price and it’s pretty darn good for the price and also pretty darn easy to use for simpler projects; but simply falls apart under the gun of bigger projects and more advanced scenarios. Studio one is very solid but lacks the depth of the older daws. Protools…..is protools. Here we are, none are perfect. Pick your poison. Which one has a cool feature that enables your creativity and productivity the best? It’s up to you. Use that one.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 7, 2022)

AlexRuger said:


> To be fair the Hemenway dorms were also roach infested.


So was my first apartment in Allston. You could hear them scurrying if you turned on the light in the middle of the night.


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## chlady (Jul 7, 2022)

ChrisHarrison said:


> I really like my warp feature in Cubase to handle tempo. Would love to see what the hype is about DP. Haven’t done a feature, but the fear of a huge 2 hour movie vs the chunking feature seems like it would help. For now, I’ll stick with Cubase. Would love to see someone give a thorough video covering DP. Seems like there are very very few people actually teaching DPs features that some say are game changing.


You should check out some of the weekly live DP webinars every friday with Matt Lapoint who is a wiz covering features, live Q&A and occasionally special guest users, some of the videos are posted at MOTU . I always learn some new tips, shortcuts, and features that I didn't know about. 
https://motu.com/en-us/products/software/dp/webinars/


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## AlexRuger (Jul 8, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> So was my first apartment in Allston. You could hear them scurrying if you turned on the light in the middle of the night.


I miss my Allston apartment! You never felt lonely due to all the mice.

Packard's Corner for life bay-beeeeee.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 8, 2022)

AlexRuger said:


> I miss my Allston apartment! You never felt lonely due to all the mice.
> 
> Packard's Corner for life bay-beeeeee.


That's where my apartment was - the corner of Harvard and Comm Ave.

My roommate was an *idiot*. I don't miss it at all!

After that I moved to Jamaica Plain, followed by Brookline. I'm still friends with other roommates.


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## HCMarkus (Jul 8, 2022)

Out here on the West Coast, my college roommate was never there. Loved that guy... the perfect roommate.


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## prodigalson (Jul 8, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> That's where my apartment was - the corner of Harvard and Comm Ave.
> 
> My roommate was an *idiot*. I don't miss it at all!
> 
> After that I moved to Jamaica Plain, followed by Brookline. I'm still friends with other roommates.


I was at the 150 dorm and don't remember cockroaches or rats...my basement apartment on Peterborough St. in the Fens however was a different story...


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## cmillar (Jul 8, 2022)

It's really hard for me to identify with any MOTU-haters, as I've used it now for 25 years and have always come back to it after giving other DAW's a good shot.

And I'm using the current DP 11.1 on a 2009 MacPro (5,1) and a 2015 MacBook Pro both running OSX High Sierra. Full SSD's, 32 and 16 gig RAM and absolutely zero complaints or problems.

Sure, there have been a few less than perfect DP versions, but the latest version is fantastic. Can't figure out why all the complaints!

Plus, I'm still using my MOTU Traveler ver.1 that I bought in 2005 and using Firewire. It's been bomb-proof over different computers and various OSX's along the way, and even with different DAW's.

It's seriously excellent software that does what pro's need it to do.

Sorry to hear that some people can't have a clean or smooth enough computer to be happy. My system is freaking excellent. Maybe some of you should buy some older Mac's and start over again!


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## pinki (Jul 8, 2022)

cmillar said:


> Sorry to hear that some people can't have a clean or smooth enough computer to be happy. My system is freaking excellent. Maybe some of you should buy some older Mac's and start over again!


MacPro 5,1 here…crash fest with no plugins on DP10 and 11, my Motu Traveler Mk 1 broke for good within the first 18 months.
Guess that’s a case of YMMV…

Or maybe it’s a case of poor coding and poor hardware quality control, who knows?


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 8, 2022)

I'm on 5,1 and DP11 I don't think has crashed for me once...excluding some plugin validation procedures


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## pinki (Jul 8, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> I'm on 5,1 and DP11 I don't think has crashed for me once...excluding some plugin validation procedures


Like I said YMMV…but my M is valid!

Studio One and Logic and Bitwig …exactly the same set up…crash far far far far less.…well Bitwig never.


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 8, 2022)

Logic is chock full of other kinds of bugs though....many of them complete show stoppers.

If your machine is crashing a lot there is probably a solvable reason why...


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## rsg22 (Jul 8, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> Logic is chock full of other kinds of bugs though....many of them complete show stoppers.


What are the show stopper bugs in Logic?


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 8, 2022)

latency correction, environment problems, articulation set related bugs, etc, etc,.... I stopped keeping track and have moved mostly on to DP!!


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## AlexRuger (Jul 8, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> That's where my apartment was - the corner of Harvard and Comm Ave.
> 
> My roommate was an *idiot*. I don't miss it at all!
> 
> After that I moved to Jamaica Plain, followed by Brookline. I'm still friends with other roommates.


Yup, I was one street over on Gardner. Good times, man. I miss that place so damn much (mice aside).


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## HCMarkus (Jul 8, 2022)

pinki said:


> my Motu Traveler Mk 1 broke for good within the first 18 months.


If we're talking YMMV, my 828mkII was purchased in early 2004 and still works today, although it is now relegated to location work. The 828ES that replaced it has been super, running attached via USB with my old Mac, and Thunderbolt with my new one.

But, you are correct, this does not negate your personal experience. MOTU has sold a lot of hardware over the years. Sometimes, we just get unlucky. Sorry that you drew the short straw on that one. MOTU had a pretty good out of warranty replacement policy back in the day... $100 flat rate would get you a refurbished replacement. Don't think they are doing that anymore though. : (

As for DP, I think it is fair to add that, for me, DP10.13 was solid for audio-only projects on my 5,1 12 core Mac Pro, but sound for picture work was tough. The UI was laggy.

DP11 on my Mac Studio Ultra flies. I am a very happy camper.


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## pinki (Jul 9, 2022)

Yes…I still have a fully functioning 828Mk1 and I still use it! 
Well clearly Motu get the Marmite Award for the 20th and 21st centuries…


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 9, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> latency correction, environment problems, articulation set related bugs, etc, etc,.... I stopped keeping track and have moved mostly on to DP!!


Counterpoint: I love Logic.


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 9, 2022)

and so do I! I just don't like the current bug streak it is having.


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## machinesworking (Jul 9, 2022)

pinki said:


> Yes…I still have a fully functioning 828Mk1 and I still use it!
> Well clearly Motu get the Marmite Award for the 20th and 21st centuries…


 No, they don't. Every piece of software I've ever used has detractors, ex users that love their latest best thing. You have every right to your opinion, that's not an issue, but all of you who say absolutes in this thread are flatly wrong, you've have personal anecdotal experiences that no one can righteously deny, but clearly other people are not having your experience. This is the nature of complex pieces of software like DAWs. The fact that it's not great on your system with your plug ins in no way means that it's not working fine for other people. 

You could easily replace DP with Cubase in terms of peoples reactions here, and we've seen other DAWs mentioned in not so glowing terms. Any time any DAW gets focused on people do this thing where they relate their awful experience with it, and at some point honestly I don't get it? One thing that looking around at other DAWs did for me is make me realize how great they all are, and what I do appreciate about DP, what I wish DP had etc. I never thought Logic sucked because it wasn't as flexible in XY or Z area or that Reaper was a configuration nightmare to get to a state I liked, it's more like the opposite. I'm sorry that DP didn't work out for you, but your own issues with it are/were obviously solvable if you took the time, it literally works fine on other peoples systems, so there is some conflict going on. You're not obligated to solve issues, but flatly they pop up in every DAW I've ever used. Battery 3 would crash Live without any MIDI data in Live, a few VST3's kill Reaper instantly and I've had VSTs hang Bitwig with no way out but force quitting. I've demoed DAWs that could not get past the plug in evaluation process, it's the nature of what we do, it's not simple.


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## pinki (Jul 9, 2022)

machinesworking said:


> No, they don't. Every piece of software I've ever used has detractors, ex users that love their latest best thing. You have every right to your opinion, that's not an issue, but all of you who say absolutes in this thread are flatly wrong, you've have personal anecdotal experiences that no one can righteously deny, but clearly other people are not having your experience. This is the nature of complex pieces of software like DAWs. The fact that it's not great on your system with your plug ins in no way means that it's not working fine for other people.
> 
> You could easily replace DP with Cubase in terms of peoples reactions here, and we've seen other DAWs mentioned in not so glowing terms. Any time any DAW gets focused on people do this thing where they relate their awful experience with it, and at some point honestly I don't get it? One thing that looking around at other DAWs did for me is make me realize how great they all are, and what I do appreciate about DP, what I wish DP had etc. I never thought Logic sucked because it wasn't as flexible in XY or Z area or that Reaper was a configuration nightmare to get to a state I liked, it's more like the opposite. I'm sorry that DP didn't work out for you, but your own issues with it are/were obviously solvable if you took the time, it literally works fine on other peoples systems, so there is some conflict going on. You're not obligated to solve issues, but flatly they pop up in every DAW I've ever used. Battery 3 would crash Live without any MIDI data in Live, a few VST3's kill Reaper instantly and I've had VSTs hang Bitwig with no way out but force quitting. I've demoed DAWs that could not get past the plug in evaluation process, it's the nature of what we do, it's not simple.



.........Motu get the Marmite Award for the 20th and 21st centuries…(IMHO)?

You missed the bit where I said "without plugins". And the bit where I said I've the same system with other DAWs on it.

So YES...Motu do indeed get the Marmite award of the century ..from me 

Motu lost the plot with DP after version 9.5 (for me, IMO)..and you can defend it until you have worn your keyboard out but you won't invalidate my experience...which involves tearing my hair out and screaming at my screen in exasperation for about a year (with no plugins on a standard Mac with a standard supported OS and endless Tech support tickets with the lovely support people..who acknowledged the bugs but still cannot fix them)

But hey we got a crappy clip launcher


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## HCMarkus (Jul 10, 2022)

Is the Marmite Award mentioned herein like a Grammy? A Nobel? Or a Darwin? Inquiring minds need to know. 

I don't think it is this: https://www.gsa.ac.uk/life/gsa-events/events/m/marmite-prize/. I mean, DP looks very pretty, with it's flexible skins and all, but...

This? https://www.marketingweek.com/marmite-claims-brand-of-the-year-at-marketing-week-engage-awards/

Are congratulations in order? : )


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## machinesworking (Jul 10, 2022)

pinki said:


> You missed the bit where I said "without plugins". And the bit where I said I've the same system with other DAWs on it.


 Yeah, that's not always applicable. I moved back from Logic to DP because Logic had some crash issues at 7.0 on my system, other people were not experiencing what I was. DP was fine on the same system. Live had serious sync issues on my system, which turned out to be a Logitech driver. Live polled ports for sync at twice the rate of DP and logic so it was more than twice as likely to lose sync because of the faulty Logitech driver. This was proven when I replaced Logitechs driver with USB Overdrive and everything worked fine. Basically your "vanilla" system is not vanilla, other people did not experience your issues, it doesn't invalidate what you experienced, but it points to some other cause than DP just sucking at 9.5, it sucked for you with your configuration. 


> Motu lost the plot with DP after version 9.5 (for me, IMO)..and you can defend it until you have worn your keyboard out but you won't invalidate my experience...which involves tearing my hair out and screaming at my screen in exasperation for about a year (with no plugins on a standard Mac with a standard supported OS and endless Tech support tickets with the lovely support people..who acknowledged the bugs but still cannot fix them)


Yep, had a similar experience with Logic 7.0 and Live 8, in some cases it was fixed in an update, in others it's configuration issues. As mentioned above I've had driver from other hardware and software screw up DAW stability, then there's VST3, which on a Mac is kinda hit or miss IME. I found out that even on Monterey on an M1, Mac OS can have corrupt Preferences that messed up control surface support in DP11, of all things. The premise that DP is somehow worse than any of the others is pure nonsense in my experience, and I'm not a slouch with this stuff. I've helped set up Macs and PCs for people, troubleshot problems and been paid to do it. 

It's not that DAWs aren't buggy sometimes, I can point out at least 4 bugs in DP right now, and it's not at all my experience with 6 DAWs on my system as I write this, that DP is less stable than the others. That's the point, there's always someone like you in every thread for every DAW ever who lost all hope and abandoned ship, that holds a grudge and needs to slag and argue with people about that DAW. It's a never ending cycle really.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 10, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> and so do I! I just don't like the current bug streak it is having.


I wouldn't know, being stuck on Mojave for now.


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 10, 2022)

That's another strike against LogicPro...forced MacOS upgrades in order to update the DAW. Latest version of DP11 will run on as early as High Sierra. Next version of LogicPro is gonna require Monterey. If we're lucky. The one after that will require Ventura. Apple has always been bad about this, but they have been more aggressive about it recently.


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## gives19 (Jul 10, 2022)

AEF said:


> I like DP. I think it is the single most full featured DAW available, and if it worked, would be my far and away preference for creating midi and audio based music alike.
> 
> But it DOES. NOT. WORK. The endless bugs and new bugs on top of new bugs are so bad that the software is useless. The new update to 11.11 has made it impossible to use even on a basic session. This has been a theme of this software for decades now.
> 
> ...


Well, I hear you. I was a LONG TIME DP and before that Performer user. I keep updating it to access like 20 yrs. of work in Sequences. 7000 plus stuff I think over those years. Commercials, Film, TV etc. It served me well UNTIL 2002 when I was scoring a film and had to deal with that awful wrapper thing and 32 bit etc. I was at a fellow musicians house and he was in PRoTools and to be honest, I only used PT at that point to just send mixes to clients. Never thought of it as a total workflow. I ended up finishing this film and just never went back to DP. I mean I used it occasionally, but after the debacle I had and my deliverables changed along with what I was doing for clients like mixing, audio post, it made much more sense. Plus, all the Dub Stages would scratch their head if I did not just send them a PT session for them to just work with. They don't even want OMF or AAF. Just very clean rendered tracks in a timeline per reel with no Mastering limiting of any kind-. They do all that there. 


So my advice? It's a toolbox. Use what works for you and what you are working towards in the end. If it's just writing and you have patients with DP support, which is a whole other story. Like I got to know someone there who answered the phone who would put me thru to someone after a bit of becoming her friend. Otherwise, back in the day it was the phone was busy from 6am PST for hours. I ended up being my own support or looking at MOTU NATION. Not sure that is even around anymore. 


Logic is a great solid and well vest company obviously and I am fine with Avid at this point and making $ using it, so I keep doing so.

Regards, G


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## HCMarkus (Jul 10, 2022)

gives19 said:


> ...looking at MOTU NATION. Not sure that is even around anymore.





MOTUnation.com - Index page


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## pinki (Jul 10, 2022)

machinesworking said:


> Yeah, that's not always applicable. I moved back from Logic to DP because Logic had some crash issues at 7.0 on my system, other people were not experiencing what I was. DP was fine on the same system. Live had serious sync issues on my system, which turned out to be a Logitech driver. Live polled ports for sync at twice the rate of DP and logic so it was more than twice as likely to lose sync because of the faulty Logitech driver. This was proven when I replaced Logitechs driver with USB Overdrive and everything worked fine. Basically your "vanilla" system is not vanilla, other people did not experience your issues, it doesn't invalidate what you experienced, but it points to some other cause than DP just sucking at 9.5, it sucked for you with your configuration.
> 
> Yep, had a similar experience with Logic 7.0 and Live 8, in some cases it was fixed in an update, in others it's configuration issues. As mentioned above I've had driver from other hardware and software screw up DAW stability, then there's VST3, which on a Mac is kinda hit or miss IME. I found out that even on Monterey on an M1, Mac OS can have corrupt Preferences that messed up control surface support in DP11, of all things. The premise that DP is somehow worse than any of the others is pure nonsense in my experience, and I'm not a slouch with this stuff. I've helped set up Macs and PCs for people, troubleshot problems and been paid to do it.
> 
> It's not that DAWs aren't buggy sometimes, I can point out at least 4 bugs in DP right now, and it's not at all my experience with 6 DAWs on my system as I write this, that DP is less stable than the others. That's the point, there's always someone like you in every thread for every DAW ever who lost all hope and abandoned ship, that holds a grudge and needs to slag and argue with people about that DAW. It's a never ending cycle really.


Ha well whatever I say you are going to come back with “it’s your setup” just like all those Motunation folks who know better than everyone else. Read the first post again.

Whatever…let’s leave it there.


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## kgdrum (Jul 11, 2022)

gives19 said:


> Well, I hear you. I was a LONG TIME DP and before that Performer user. I keep updating it to access like 20 yrs. of work in Sequences. 7000 plus stuff I think over those years. Commercials, Film, TV etc. It served me well UNTIL 2002 when I was scoring a film and had to deal with that awful wrapper thing and 32 bit etc. I was at a fellow musicians house and he was in PRoTools and to be honest, I only used PT at that point to just send mixes to clients. Never thought of it as a total workflow. I ended up finishing this film and just never went back to DP. I mean I used it occasionally, but after the debacle I had and my deliverables changed along with what I was doing for clients like mixing, audio post, it made much more sense. Plus, all the Dub Stages would scratch their head if I did not just send them a PT session for them to just work with. They don't even want OMF or AAF. Just very clean rendered tracks in a timeline per reel with no Mastering limiting of any kind-. They do all that there.
> 
> 
> So my advice? It's a toolbox. Use what works for you and what you are working towards in the end. If it's just writing and you have patients with DP support, which is a whole other story. Like I got to know someone there who answered the phone who would put me thru to someone after a bit of becoming her friend. Otherwise, back in the day it was the phone was busy from 6am PST for hours. I ended up being my own support or looking at MOTU NATION. Not sure that is even around anymore.
> ...




Well the good news is MOTU support is actually very good now,your memories of endless busy signals and trouble getting through to support are a distant memory that really doesn’t apply anymore. 
Call,the phone rings a receptionist takes preliminary info and either connects you with tech support immediately or the tech support rep calls you in a few minutes.
Plus the representatives are responsive ,knowledgeable & quite helpful.
MOTU tech support is actually quite accessible now & imo one of the best support teams in the DAW world now.


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## gives19 (Jul 11, 2022)

kgdrum said:


> Well the good news is MOTU support is actually very good now,your memories of endless busy signals and trouble getting through to support are a distant memory that really doesn’t apply anymore.
> Call,the phone rings a receptionist takes preliminary info and either connects you with tech support immediately or the tech support rep calls you in a few minutes.
> Plus the representatives are responsive ,knowledgeable & quite helpful.
> MOTU tech support is actually quite accessible now & imo one of the best support teams in the DAW world now.


Great! At this point I have not had to reach out to them for years since I have had to really just do my own tech, it's been only to inform them of problems in an email. Nothing that I can't handle. Good news for others though-.


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## gives19 (Jul 11, 2022)

HCMarkus said:


> MOTUnation.com - Index page


Great! It's a good resource. Not something I need at this point, but glad they are around.


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## machinesworking (Jul 11, 2022)

pinki said:


> Ha well whatever I say you are going to come back with “it’s your setup” just like all those Motunation folks who know better than everyone else. Read the first post again.
> 
> Whatever…let’s leave it there.


 It is your setup though. That's why not everyone is experiencing what you experienced. There's literally nothing else it can be. 

Now MOTU and every other DAW company 'should' be able to navigate all possible setups and prevent an individual from experiencing what you did, or any of my examples, but realistically it's inevitable with complex software that someone gets burned. 

With Logic 7.0 I thought there was no way for there to be issues, but to be quite fair to Logic my Mac Pro at the time was assembled from two or three beta machines a friend put together for me, and Logic of the DAWs on my system was not happy with that machine, and driver setup etc. These things happen, I've used a half dozen DAWs at high levels for 25 odd years, absolutely none of them have been 100% bug free, and most of them have presented show stopping bugs at some point.


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## José Herring (Jul 11, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> No latency issues due to having the secondary interface connected by Cat5, regardless of cable length. It's pretty amazing actually.
> 
> I will say that in order to pass signals between interfaces with AVB (or perhaps it's just MOTU's implementation of it?) you need to assign channels to "AVB Streams" in 8-channel bricks, and it can get a little confusing. And, since there can be individual CueMix mixers for each hardware interface (if you want there to be), the first time I was setting up my system I definitely sat and stared at the screen for a minute, trying to figure out what the hell was going on. But once it was configured, it has worked flawlessly for many years, never forgetting the elaborate routing scheme I set up, even when I operate with only one interface connected, or do other dumb things. It's been so reliable that when, after three or four years, I DO want to change something, I realize it's been years since I looked at the configuration screens and I have to sit for a minute and go, "Okay... right...hmmmm."
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for your detailed and thoughtful reply.


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## samphony (Jul 11, 2022)

AlexRuger said:


> as that DAW is the only not-customizable one


Which changed with 2022.6 😁


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## dgburns (Jul 11, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> No latency issues due to having the secondary interface connected by Cat5, regardless of cable length. It's pretty amazing actually.
> 
> I will say that in order to pass signals between interfaces with AVB (or perhaps it's just MOTU's implementation of it?) you need to assign channels to "AVB Streams" in 8-channel bricks, and it can get a little confusing. And, since there can be individual CueMix mixers for each hardware interface (if you want there to be), the first time I was setting up my system I definitely sat and stared at the screen for a minute, trying to figure out what the hell was going on. But once it was configured, it has worked flawlessly for many years, never forgetting the elaborate routing scheme I set up, even when I operate with only one interface connected, or do other dumb things. It's been so reliable that when, after three or four years, I DO want to change something, I realize it's been years since I looked at the configuration screens and I have to sit for a minute and go, "Okay... right...hmmmm."
> 
> ...


I went the Dante route, no regrets so far, so much flexibility in terms of routing and even adding additional peripherals. Dante has been good to me.


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## charlieclouser (Jul 11, 2022)

dgburns said:


> I went the Dante route, no regrets so far, so much flexibility in terms of routing and even adding additional peripherals. Dante has been good to me.


Yeah, I wish Dante and DanteVia and all the rest of that stuff had been mature when I got into the AVB rig, it looks more flexible and simple at the same time. 

I'd be interested to hear if anyone is using DanteVia / VirtualSoundCard over the 10gb Ethernet connection on a Mac Studio Ultra. That could be a nice solution.


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## pinki (Jul 12, 2022)

machinesworking said:


> It is your setup though. That's why not everyone is experiencing what you experienced. There's literally nothing else it can be.
> 
> Now MOTU and every other DAW company 'should' be able to navigate all possible setups and prevent an individual from experiencing what you did, or any of my examples, but realistically it's inevitable with complex software that someone gets burned.
> 
> With Logic 7.0 I thought there was no way for there to be issues, but to be quite fair to Logic my Mac Pro at the time was assembled from two or three beta machines a friend put together for me, and Logic of the DAWs on my system was not happy with that machine, and driver setup etc. These things happen, I've used a half dozen DAWs at high levels for 25 odd years, absolutely none of them have been 100% bug free, and most of them have presented show stopping bugs at some point.


Nah, you're wrong. Standard setup, standard up-to-date drivers. BTW I have more experience than you on this (in years and number of DAWS).

Here is what you need to understand: there is a factor, let's call it the 'CR factor' for the sake of argument. Let each DAW have a CR rating. Windows and Mac can be treated separately.
DAW's that crash more often on all possible permutations of a computer setup and OS will gain a high CR rating.
DAWs that crash less often on all possible permutations of computer setups and OS will have a low CR rating.

So for example, I think we will all agree that Bitwig has a low CR rating yes? Because of its sandboxing and its recent arrival on the market it's generally stable on a wide range of systems. Would you like to agree on at least this point?

Now let's take DP on Windows. Even you are going to be hard pushed to tall me that DP has a low CR rating on Windows.

Now, let's compare Logic and DP on Mac. In my experience on many many different iterations of OS and hardware, Logic has a lower CR rating than DP.

But further, it is my claim that in fact, DP has a very very poor CR rating generally.

Sure I agree with you, all DAWS have problems! But my point here is that DP has more than others. And I can top your 25years experience on that.


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## machinesworking (Jul 13, 2022)

pinki said:


> Nah, you're wrong. Standard setup, standard up-to-date drivers. BTW I have more experience than you on this (in years and number of DAWS).


So right away,_ there is no such thing as standard up to date drivers,_ or a standard setup for that matter. You can have all the experience in the world but if you cannot understand this basic concept, then you will never be able to admit that other people are not having your problems on their system. There's no magic here, computers are 1's and 0's, if your same system hardware behaves differently with an application than mine, then it's your configuration, period. 

This is why for the most part DP behaves and acts just like Logic and the other DAWs on my system, because if there is an issue I find out what's causing it, you obviously do not. I have a complex system, so every DAW I own has had some issue at some point with all the drivers, third party applications etc. that I run. 

I will throw you a bone though, only Logic and DP crash multiple plug ins on my system, neither of them is that robust with hosting, and what with DP hosting AU as well as VST and VST3 it can be an issue if like me you have hundreds of plug ins. So you do have to take extra time with DP to maintain plug ins, especially compared to sandboxed DAWs like Bitwig, but Bitwig is also miles more simple than DP. Once you get a stable setup though, DP here is no less stable than Logic.


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## pinki (Jul 13, 2022)

machinesworking said:


> So right away,_ there is no such thing as standard up to date drivers,_ or a standard setup for that matter. You can have all the experience in the world but if you cannot understand this basic concept, then you will never be able to admit that other people are not having your problems on their system. There's no magic here, computers are 1's and 0's, if your same system hardware behaves differently with an application than mine, then it's your configuration, period.
> 
> This is why for the most part DP behaves and acts just like Logic and the other DAWs on my system, because if there is an issue I find out what's causing it, you obviously do not. I have a complex system, so every DAW I own has had some issue at some point with all the drivers, third party applications etc. that I run.
> 
> I will throw you a bone though, only Logic and DP crash multiple plug ins on my system, neither of them is that robust with hosting, and what with DP hosting AU as well as VST and VST3 it can be an issue if like me you have hundreds of plug ins. So you do have to take extra time with DP to maintain plug ins, especially compared to sandboxed DAWs like Bitwig, but Bitwig is also miles more simple than DP. Once you get a stable setup though, DP here is no less stable than Logic.


Er what are you talking about? Up to date drivers?? What can't YOU understand about that concept. How very odd you talk.

Computers are 0 and 1's..right that's interesting, I thought they were magic machines from another reality.

You can keep your bone as you clearly don't know it from your elbow...

(and as you clearly don't read posts..for the third time, I have no plugins in DP which I have repeatedly stressed)

You are on ignore.


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 13, 2022)

I hear what pinki is saying. After 25 years he feels DP has more of a tendency then LogicPro to crash, with his CR rating. That is his experience. I haven't been working with DP for 25 years, nor LogicPro for that matter...so I can't reflect back that long on my own personal experience. It is noted what he has observed now. That being said, what experience I have had, I have not particularly noticed DP crashing any more (nor less), then LogicPro or Cubase.

I don't particularly like the idea of a so called CR rating, so to speak because this is just one man's impression based on his experience using his hardware and plugins...there is nothing "standard" about any of it. To do truly standardized testing, you would need to have these DAW's tested on the same hardware using the same drivers, using the same plugins in the same workflow situations...and keep track of which ones crash and which ones don't. Then you would need to compare them all with this "standardized" scenario but with different work flows, in order to uncover the use cases where each DAW specifically seems to have a crashing issue, and yet more; then you would need to replicate all of that carefully controlled testing across hundreds of separate hardware systems, always comparing each DAW to the other DAW's only with the same plugins, drivers, hardware and workflow situations in each case. Eventually you might arrive to some kind of CR value that might be valid. 

As far as I am aware, nobody has ever done this kind of test and probably never will due to cost.

The reality is that some people do experience these kinds of issues, and I have too, so I get it. But I have crossed that situation with all three DAW's. It is not even remotely possible to say that any one of them is worse then any other. Could be that some of us have been emotionally scarred from some situation in the past where one of the DAWs that happened to be in use ran into a some kind of crashing brick wall and left a very bad impression. I get it. pinki is saying after 25 years he ran into that wall more with DP. I get that too, but I also realize that pinki has not really done the kind of true testing that would be neccesarry to authoritatively declare a so called "CR rating" for each of the DAW's. Its just ancedotal. and I do take note, but I'm still using DP because of chunks and so far no emotional scars from crashing.

I will say this, when I installed DP11, it crashed a bunch of times in a row when I was trying to get through the initial plugin scan. You can find posts about it on this forum. I was initially distraught. Eventually I found out how to use a command line argument to block DP from phoning-home to MOTU for each plugin validation problem and that stopped the scanning from crashing DP. Kind of annoying that this was necessary, but DP does seem to have a bug in its actual scanning-reporting that will crash DP while it tries to phone home to tell MOTU about the plugin crashing. Ironic. But once I used the command line argument to get past scanning, then DP did not crash for me that I can remember ever once while using it since then.

In the case of all three DAW's my impression of all of them is that if and when there was something causing a lot of crashing, the user community was loud about it pretty quickly and the developers responded with an update pretty quickly. its just not very common any more for DAW's to crash. it is more common for plugins to cause them to crash. 

Also pinki may be reflecting back to 20 years ago before the internet was as much of a thing as it is now...back then I could easily see a crash problem not being handled quite as quickly as it is today due to social media. 

also, Apple, Steinberg and MOTU have all had their ups and downs in terms of the amount of development and quality of development...there is no rule whatsoever that any one of them is better or worse forever then the other two. To infer that is just simply false. That being said, I do get the impression that Apple and Steinberg have bigger teams working on it. I have no evidence of that, that is just my impression. Bigger teams have pros and cons. It can mean more work done more often, it can also mean more bugs more often, but then again, they might be able to respond to a crash problem more quickly too. Round and round we go.

This thread was someone's need to rant about MOTU... I get that too, but honestly its futile. It will always run into people who will respond that there is nothing wrong with MOTU. Nothing will be solved. Hope you got it out of your system and then get back to using whichever DAW helps you get your work done and be creative the best...they are all great products in their own way.


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 13, 2022)

and look what just happened as we speak:






it happens.. With all of them...


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## machinesworking (Jul 13, 2022)

pinki said:


> Er what are you talking about? Up to date drivers?? What can't YOU understand about that concept. How very odd you talk.
> 
> Computers are 0 and 1's..right that's interesting, I thought they were magic machines from another reality.


It’s clear you’re no expert with computers. I’m not saying this to be cruel. There’s no magic to “up to date drivers”, it’s always possible for a third party driver to cause problems with a specific DAW, and I posted examples of this earlier. It’s of course most likely that the latest drivers will behave but it’s no guarantee. 

Never been blocked before, I feel flattered, but IMO this is one of the major issues with the complex DAWs like DP and Cubase that are 30+ years old, the user base is not capable of solving complex issues, and end up spending more hours arguing with people about how bad the DAW is than they ever did figuring out what in their configuration is causing problems. 

It would be great if DAWs never had problems, but even Bitwig with it’s sandboxing can hang with an errant plug in, and I’ve experienced multiple GUI issues with it. We demand complex complicated setups and then lose it completely when it doesn’t work like expected. It’s normal, but honestly again, I think one of the main issues with DP is it’s ex user base and their bile spit out on forums.


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## cuttime (Jul 13, 2022)

machinesworking said:


> Never been blocked before, I feel flattered,


Spend more time on Twitter.


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## Karmand (Jul 13, 2022)

I'm just waiting for DP to go on sale so I can jump in!
Logic, Monterey 12.4 and the new Mir3D-VEP7-Synchron update stops Logic from even opening a VEP session - pop the VEP plugin on a track and boom - crash. So it's been stable for me up till yesterday. Roll back the VEP update and it runs. See it is a matter of compatibility, combinations of plugins etc... all software crashes and or has bugs. I want to try DP11 because of the way it works with video, I use Logic because it sounds the best and I am faster in it. VSL says it's a known issue with Monterey 12.4 so ya just never know till we try, troubleshoot and make a stable system for ourselves.


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## kgdrum (Jul 13, 2022)

machinesworking said:


> It’s clear you’re no expert with computers. I’m not saying this to be cruel. There’s no magic to “up to date drivers”, it’s always possible for a third party driver to cause problems with a specific DAW, and I posted examples of this earlier. It’s of course most likely that the latest drivers will behave but it’s no guarantee.
> 
> Never been blocked before, I feel flattered, but IMO this is one of the major issues with the complex DAWs like DP and Cubase that are 30+ years old, the user base is not capable of solving complex issues, and end up spending more hours arguing with people about how bad the DAW is than they ever did figuring out what in their configuration is causing problems.
> 
> We demand complex complicated setups and then lose it completely when it doesn’t work like expected. It’s normal, but honestly again, I think one of the main issues with DP is it’s ex user base and their bile spit out on forums.


Agree 100% 👍


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## machinesworking (Jul 13, 2022)

Karmand said:


> I'm just waiting for DP to go on sale so I can jump in!
> Logic, Monterey 12.4 and the new Mir3D-VEP7-Synchron update stops Logic from even opening a VEP session - pop the VEP plugin on a track and boom - crash. So it's been stable for me up till yesterday. Roll back the VEP update and it runs. See it is a matter of compatibility, combinations of plugins etc... all software crashes and or has bugs. I want to try DP11 because of the way it works with video, I use Logic because it sounds the best and I am faster in it. VSL says it's a known issue with Monterey 12.4 so ya just never know till we try, troubleshoot and make a stable system for ourselves.


DP hardly ever goes on sale, people to sell their licenses though, I've seen multiple copies at KVR for the typical DAW upgrade price of $200. That's what I would do. 

I almost went back to Logic recently because of the fantastic electronic music elements it has, great samplers, Alchemy, Sculpture, the AI drummer etc. but I also do orchestral work, and DP's implementation of articulation mapping is just better, I haven't had it miss an articulation yet, and Logic would with it's own built in strings all the time. I'm sure there's something that can be done about it, but it's just nice not to have to deal with that, and I have enough plug ins to make up for any lack in the electronic music department DP might have compared to Logics package.


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## machinesworking (Jul 13, 2022)

Karmand said:


> I'm just waiting for DP to go on sale so I can jump in!


Don't even have to deal with KVR, someone is selling a copy here. 





For Sale - MOTU Digital Performer 11 (License Transfer)


MOTU Digital Performer 11 license transfer: $200 Please PM if interested or have any questions.



vi-control.net


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 13, 2022)

My main gripe with LogicPro right now is that it has a lot of bugs related to plugin delay compensation and record offset and increasing number of bugs in the environment. The environment bugs are particularly problematic when trying to work with larger orchestra type templates and VePro, etc. I personally feel LogicPro needs an overhaul in its guts, and just get rid of the environment entirely, but only while providing all the necessary features that 99% of people have needed to mess around in the environment to compensate for lack thereof. They did that already years ago in MainStage, they should have done it in LogicPro too. But its limping along and kind of getting worse and worse over time.

Articulation Sets in LogicPro were half-baked and will probably never be fixed or improved at this point, so sadly they simply don't work that well. As provided from Apple, DP and Cubase both kill it. That being said, with Scripter support, you can make LogicPro handle articulations even better then cubase and DP! But not everyone is up for doing that. But the fact that LogicPro even has Scripter, is definitely cool and helps a lot if and when you are capable of programming it. Particularly relating to articulation management since it has access to the internal articulationID meta data. I also wish LogicPro had an actual articulation lane like Cubase and DP do...apple missed it on that one.

There is still a lot to like about LogicPro. But my main interest in DP is simply for chunks. Chunks are freaking awesome. Previously I could not make the jump because of complete lack of articulation map, but they added that and so that roadblock is gone and I can use the glorious chunks feature of DP.

But I have to say also, LogicPro is really not very good handling large templates with hundreds or thousands of tracks. You can't reasonably handle nested track folders and quickly change which set of tracks are currently showing, search for tracks, track selection presets, etc. DP is just a million times better in terms of track visibility and organization management. Cubase also way better in this regard. Also LogicPro's handling of multi-timbral instruments basically sucks. Its one reason a lot of people have struggled to use it with VePro which is one of the most massive multi-timbral instruments, if not THE most massive multi timbral instrument ever created. DP and Cubase handle it all fine, Logic simply coughs and gags and blows up eventually. Not to mention that you have barely any control over what the mixer looks like, the order of the channel strips, and managing the mixer with humongous templates.

LogicPro does have a lot of other cool things going for it though, in my opinion, for smaller projects its wonderful to work with generally.


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## dgburns (Jul 14, 2022)

Funny enough, this thread has me looking at DP again, lol.


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## KeyboardThis (Jul 14, 2022)

Looks like this thread has passed the point of meaningful return on information... which is my cue to jump in!

*First-Gen MOTU UltraLite from 2005* - Windows: Works* with latest version of Windows 10. Mac: Doesn't work at all with Catalina or newer. Want the latest Logic feature and performance/stability enhancements? Need a new interface. *MOTU UltraLite MK3 Hybrid* - Windows: Works* with latest version of Windows 10. Mac: Works, for now, on a PCI FW800 card with Catalina. Haven't tried USB or FW on my Monterey M1 Air. *Seemingly every time Windows 10 has a major update, the driver gets wiped out, and I have to reinstall it. I also get the infamous, intermittent high-pitched bleeps on Windows only.

MOTU hardware is finally aligned with Apple: "We're done with this particular generation, and you should be too." Really I can't complain; now I know more about what to consider re manufacturer loyalty. 15-ish years was a great run for my 2nd interface. My 1st was a MOTU 2408 on a PCI-324 card in a blue & white G3 (using DP3 at that time). You want to talk instability? Holy moly, that 324 SUCKED.

Oh right, this is now a DAW thread. I used to have (in the Mitch Hedberg sense) a Hackintosh. Despite its power, it was tedious to keep it at the latest OS; eventually getting "stuck" due to an Nvidia GPU. No more Logic improvements. I didn't care about clips, live loops, or some new softsynth. What I wanted were the single-core, "live" performance, latency/stability improvements. Tough luck. Plenty of processing power but priced out of a modern Mac/OS (only the trashcan was available for the longest time). Then came an awkward DP -> Logic -> DP workflow on Mac. Then DP only on Windows. Then a new GPU, back to Mac; back to Logic. Then to Logic and DP only for specific midi needs and mixing tons of tracks.

My end-result experience was just like Cubase guy's. ALL of them crashed, especially when using certain 3rd party plugins. Heck, even with NO 3rd party products, DP on Windows (with the FW Ultralite Hybrid) didn't like the way my specific 5700XT was handling DisplayPort audio for monitors. I work in IT, so monkeying around with GPU drivers, services, and the registry wasn't a big deal - but to put myself in an average user's shoes - just trying to get some value out of my MOTU interface... holy moly! There's no way someone like that could even grok the Windows audio stack enough to submit a quality question on any message board.


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## dterry (Jul 14, 2022)

Karmand said:


> I'm just waiting for DP to go on sale so I can jump in!
> Logic, Monterey 12.4 and the new Mir3D-VEP7-Synchron update stops Logic from even opening a VEP session - pop the VEP plugin on a track and boom - crash. So it's been stable for me up till yesterday. Roll back the VEP update and it runs. See it is a matter of compatibility, combinations of plugins etc... all software crashes and or has bugs. I want to try DP11 because of the way it works with video, I use Logic because it sounds the best and I am faster in it. VSL says it's a known issue with Monterey 12.4 so ya just never know till we try, troubleshoot and make a stable system for ourselves.


You could buy a competitive upgrade from another DAW. Sweetwater has them for $100 less than retail, if a 2nd hand copy doesn't work out.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 15, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> Yeah, I own a copy but it's a few version behind current. I used Performer v1.22 for a few years back in the day, then Southworth Total Music


Boy, I hope you had more fun with Southworth than I did. That stuff crashed like a 20 car pileup. Bless Opcode, they finally came up with a working sequencer.


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## machinesworking (Jul 15, 2022)

As far as old hardware goes I’m not super surprised


KeyboardThis said:


> MOTU hardware is finally aligned with Apple: "We're done with this particular generation, and you should be too." Really I can't complain; now I know more about what to consider re manufacturer loyalty. 15-ish years was a great run for my 2nd interface.


To be fair here, personally I own a RME Fireface 800 and a Babyface FS. Mostly because the FF800 has transparent preamps and I like having my hardware plugged directly in. It was roughly twice as much for the FF800 compared to an equivalent MOTU interface 17 years or so ago. MOTU hardware especially today has similar quality in the preamps etc. but they compete for the mid range market price wise, not the high end. At some point unless you gouge people at the beginning like RME do, you're going to have to call it on constant updates. They aren't as bad as M-Audio, but in the end you get what you pay for. RME have outstanding driver support, and they don't hold back on the price, MOTU have decent driver support and the price is reasonable, M-Audio are cheap and their driver support sucks. There's a pattern there.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 15, 2022)

My Ultralite Mk3 Hybrid worked fine, but I traded it in for a Babyface Pro and the efficiency re the driver and the subsequent buffer were superior, as were the mic pre amps. Fewer inputs for the Babyface though.


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## charlieclouser (Jul 15, 2022)

NYC Composer said:


> Boy, I hope you had more fun with Southworth than I did. That stuff crashed like a 20 car pileup. Bless Opcode, they finally came up with a working sequencer.


Yeah, Total Music was a bit of a train wreck, and MidiPaint was also a bit rough, but OneStep was actually really reliable and pretty cool. Even though it was only 16 tracks - one track per MIDI channel on a single port - it did work, allowed dragging of bar lines relative to timecode to auto-calculate tempo maps / hit points (in 1987!), and we managed to score an entire season of hour-long network dramas on it.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 15, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> Yeah, Total Music was a bit of a train wreck, and MidiPaint was also a bit rough, but OneStep was actually really reliable and pretty cool. Even though it was only 16 tracks - one track per MIDI channel on a single port - it did work, allowed dragging of bar lines relative to timecode to auto-calculate tempo maps / hit points (in 1987!), and we managed to score an entire season of hour-long network dramas on it.


That’s amazing. I couldn't keep MidiPaint going for more than a little while before it started crashing. It was a nightmare early on. I don’t think I ever knew about One Step. I had Dr T’s little MIDI sequencer on a Commodore, and that worked. My Mac Plus wasn’t solid til Vision, and I used that for years and many gigs. We figured out a way to run ProTools 3 and Vision on different computers, locked up with a 3/4 video machine through SMPTE and MIDI timecode.

Next up for me was the original Cubase VST around ‘97. The effects and included instruments were crap but it worked and had audio.


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## charlieclouser (Jul 15, 2022)

NYC Composer said:


> That’s amazing. I couldn't keep MidiPaint going for more than a little while before it started crashing. It was a nightmare early on. I don’t think I ever knew about One Step. I had Dr T’s little MIDI sequencer on a Commodore, and that worked. My Mac Plus wasn’t solid til Vision, and I used that for years and many gigs. We figured out a way to run ProTools 3 and Vision on different computers, locked up with a 3/4 video machine through SMPTE and MIDI timecode.
> 
> Next up for me was the original Cubase VST around ‘97. The effects and included instruments were crap but it worked and had audio.


One-Step was actually pretty amazing. As simple as a sequencer could possibly be, it had 16 buttons down the left side to select the track, and the main window was always, and only, in a piano-roll view. That's it. No other screens or windows, no tempo list editor, no note list, nothing. But it would lock to SMPTE, and you could drag bar lines and it would show the timecode number for the bar line, so for the minimalist composer and keyboardist I was working with it was perfect. They didn't need my help to get 16 bars to fit exactly between the door slam and the gun shot or whatever!

By that point I had already been up and running for a few years, and had Sequential's sequencer cartridge for Commodore, Texture and Dr. T's and Sequencer Plus on DOS, Pro-24 and Creator+Notator on Atari ST, and Performer v1.22 and Master Tracks Pro on Mac.... so I was an old hand at software sequencers! But the composer I was working for wanted things simple and quick, and of course we needed SMPTE sync, so Southworth it was.... and yes, we had the Sony BVU-950 decks and printed mixes to a VHS machine with a Sony PCM-F1. Eventually we found Pansonic pro VHS decks that had a jog/shuttle wheel and could finally get rid of the monstrous (and expensive) Sony 3/4" decks.

After Opcode's Vision and their TimeCode Machine box came out, we did switch, but Vision was still more complicated than necessary for the composer I worked with. Since I was a beta tester for Opcode, I evangelized One Step to them, and eventually Opcode came out with EZ-Vision, which was a shameless ripoff of One-Step minus the Southworth flakiness, and also without the draggable bar lines unfortunately.

Mac Plus with a warranty-voiding internal HyperDrive 20meg hard drive, and later a version of the HyperDrive that also had a 68020 CPU on a daughterboard. Big dollars those things were. Good times.


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## HCMarkus (Jul 15, 2022)

After trying Opcode's original pre-Vision "Sequencer" (which was great for one track, but timing went all to heck once you added a couple more tracks), I discovered Performer, V1.3 or something like that, and was so happy when I found it recorded and played back multiple MIDI tracks with rock-solid timing. 

Add in an 8-Track Reel to Reel, then Opcode's Timecode Machine, and DAT (both godsends back in the day)... my home productions were suddenly ready for prime time and I placed my first library tracks with Network Music.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 15, 2022)

charlieclouser said:


> Mac Plus with a warranty-voiding internal HyperDrive 20meg hard drive, and later a version of the HyperDrive that also had a 68020 CPU on a daughterboard. Big dollars those things were. Good times.


Bleeding edge times. Very heady when you got things working. Very embarrassing when video and audio wouldn’t sync in front of a roomful of clients. The ADAT period was just the worst. Not only would they lose sync with video, they’d lose sync with each OTHER.

QuickTime changed my working life dramatically.


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## charlieclouser (Jul 15, 2022)

NYC Composer said:


> QuickTime changed my working life dramatically.


Me too. I've been cleaning out the storage rooms and found work copies of picture to be scored in 3/4", DigiBeta, VHS, and DVD. Also copied the contents of over 40 hard drives to a single 16tb drive, and it's only 2/3 full so far!


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## gives19 (Jul 17, 2022)

dgburns said:


> I went the Dante route, no regrets so far, so much flexibility in terms of routing and even adding additional peripherals. Dante has been good to me.


Yup.. I have both, but I dig the Dante setup here.


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