# Is Mac Mini a Viable Alternative to New Mac Pro?



## robgb (Oct 14, 2019)

Sounds workable to me.


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## mscp (Oct 14, 2019)

Mac minis are too weak. Had one. For the same price, I built a ridiculous PC. But I know you want to stay on MacOS.


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## Prockamanisc (Oct 14, 2019)

I went this way back in 2013/4. I regret it. Go Mac Pro.


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## jason.d (Oct 14, 2019)

Prockamanisc said:


> I went this way back in 2013/4. I regret it. Go Mac Pro.



Is this mainly because of the CPU?


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## ridgero (Oct 14, 2019)

Prockamanisc said:


> I went this way back in 2013/4. I regret it. Go Mac Pro.



2013 is not 2019.

Here are many composers with a Mini 2018, i7, 64 GB and don't regret it at all.


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## Prockamanisc (Oct 15, 2019)

CPU, GPU, storage, and RAM. "But you can upgrade the CPU, install bigger RAM, buy an external graphics card, and buy an enclosure for more hard drives". Right, and at the end of the day you're within spitting distance of the cost of a Mac Pro, so just go Mac Pro and don't look back. It's worth the extra $1-2K to future-proof and not have to buy another new computer in a few years.

At least, those were the numbers a few years ago when I was making my Mac Mini vs Pro decision.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Oct 15, 2019)

Prockamanisc said:


> CPU, GPU, storage, and RAM. "But you can upgrade the CPU, install bigger RAM, buy an external graphics card, and buy an enclosure for more hard drives". Right, and at the end of the day you're within spitting distance of the cost of a Mac Pro, so just go Mac Pro and don't look back. It's worth the extra $1-2K to future-proof and not have to buy another new computer in a few years.
> 
> At least, those were the numbers a few years ago when I was making my Mac Mini vs Pro decision.



I highly doubt that. The new Mac Pro starts at $6000 USD, that's substantially higher than a top-spec'd mini (probably triple the price). There are several composers using the new mini's, I haven't heard about any issues (yet).


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## Prockamanisc (Oct 15, 2019)

Wolfie2112 said:


> I highly doubt that. The new Mac Pro starts at $6000 USD


I'm talking about my experience with the Mac Pro 2013. My Mac Mini was underpowered, so I built a PC Slave which ultimately cost $3500 and hundreds of hours of research, build, and maintenance time. And at the end of the day, I hated the workflow with the slave, so I sold it and bought a Mac Pro 2013.

My point is that saving money is sometimes the worst path, because you still have to make up for its deficiencies. I wish I had just done the Pro in the first place. But if a current Mac Mini is powerful enough for your needs, then sure, it's a viable alternative.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 15, 2019)

The current Mac Mini isn't underpowered, but what's the bottom line on that video?

I'm too impatient to sit through 15 minutes of talking about two different Macs.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Oct 15, 2019)

Phil81 said:


> Mac minis are too weak. Had one. For the same price, I built a ridiculous PC. But I know you want to stay on MacOS.



A 3.2GHz 6‑core 8th‑generation Intel Core i7 is too weak? How so?


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## Wunderhorn (Oct 15, 2019)

The Mac Mini is fundamentally flawed by having a limit of 64GB RAM. This is not enough to grow with this computer for a number of years. Also, again, I do not understand why a desktop computer such as this has no internal drive bays, at least for today's compact sized SSDs.
The new Mac Pro might cost a boatload but I like to be able to service it myself and expand it to my liking. That way I get a lot more years out of the initial investment.


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## Symfoniq (Oct 15, 2019)

Wunderhorn said:


> Also, again, I do not understand why a desktop computer such as this has no internal drive bays, at least for today's compact sized SSDs.
> The new Mac Pro might cost a boatload but I like to be able to service it myself and expand it to my liking. That way I get a lot more years out of the initial investment.



But it’s not about what you would like to be able to do; it’s about what Apple wants to do to their profits.

For several years now, we’ve been in the era where Apple removes features and then charges you more money to get them back. And it’s going swimmingly for the shareholders.

A user-upgradable computer doesn’t fit with the program anymore unless Apple can charge an enormous amount of money for it. It’s why the new Mac Pro “has” to start at twice the price of the old ones.


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## theaviv (Oct 15, 2019)

I'm considering getting a Mac mini.

For $4598.98 CAD, I could get:

- 3.2GHz 6‑core 8th‑generation Intel Core i7 (Turbo Boost up to 4.6GHz)
- 64GB 2666MHz DDR4
- Intel UHD Graphics 630
- 2TB SSD storage
- 10 Gigabit Ethernet (Nbase-T Ethernet with support for 1Gb, 2.5Gb, 5Gb and 10Gb Ethernet using RJ‑45 connector)
- Final Cut Pro X
- Logic Pro X

My plan is to use Logic Pro X along with ComposerCloud to learn how to create good mockups.

I might also like to use Sibelius along with NotePerformer to compose.

I believe the hardware would serve me well for a number of years, you don't think so?


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## Jeremy Spencer (Oct 15, 2019)

theaviv said:


> I'm considering getting a Mac mini.
> 
> For $4598.98 CAD, I could get:
> 
> ...



It would indeed, my 2013 MB Pro is still going strong six years later. You could save yourself at least $1000+ by ordering it with 8GB Ram and buying your own....and going with a 1TB internal. All of your samples should be stored externally, 1TB is plenty. Get yourself a good Thunderbolt 3 station, a couple of Samsung T5's, and you're good to go!


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## Solarsentinel (Oct 16, 2019)

theaviv said:


> I'm considering getting a Mac mini.
> 
> For $4598.98 CAD, I could get:
> 
> ...



I don't want to start a discussion war between mac & pc, and i know you probably want to stay to MacOS. But seriously for the price of a this Mac mini you can have a mega big power pc with at least twice RAM & cores.


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## IFM (Oct 16, 2019)

theaviv said:


> I'm considering getting a Mac mini.
> 
> For $4598.98 CAD, I could get:
> 
> ...



You can do this for less! 
- Mac mini 3.2 6-core w, LPX and FCP installed, 8gb Ram, 10GB option 2098.99
- OWC 64GB ram upgrade (DIY) 388.99
- Akitio Thuder3 Quad Mini drive bay - 279.95
- A couple of TB SSD drives 107.50 x 2

2982.93 US = 3,942.02 CAD.

Save even more but not doing the Quad bay and just doing external enclosures that are about $15 each (used many quite well).

That would drop you down to 2732.98 US or 3611.36 CAD.


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## GtrString (Oct 16, 2019)

Im still on a Mac Mini 2012, i7 quad with 16gb ram. I just swapped the hdd to a 2TB SSD myself. Ez as pie.

I like the idea of diy in Mac Pro, but price is too much. I will go with a new Mini next year, and will expect it to last about 6 years.


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## Olfirf (Oct 16, 2019)

Solarsentinel said:


> I don't want to start a discussion war between mac & pc, and i know you probably want to stay to MacOS. But seriously for the price of a this Mac mini you can have a mega big power pc with at least twice RAM & cores.


Yeah, I got such a powerful PC with lots of SSDs, an i9 9900k and 128gb of ram. But it runs macOS!  Seriously, a Hackintosh isn't that nerdy and difficult to do anymore ... you just need to know that you should keep a backup of a working system in addition to constantly backing up you files via Time Machine and you should not update your machine during projects. Other then that, there is some time you need to spend looking at threads in certain forums regarding major updates and you should not be the jerk who always has to jump on the latest upgrade, just because you are curious about that one feature that is new ...
Actually, it is all stuff you should do running any real Mac and care about a working system and data loss.


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## Pier (Oct 22, 2019)

I was considering the i7 Mini but ended up building a much more powerful and flexible Ryzen PC.

Bad thermals, soldered components, poor 4k support with Intel gpu, etc. I love macOS but having to shell out $6-7k to get a real desktop PC is a bit ridiculous.


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## Nate Johnson (Dec 4, 2019)

Olfirf said:


> Yeah, I got such a powerful PC with lots of SSDs, an i9 9900k and 128gb of ram. But it runs macOS!  Seriously, a Hackintosh isn't that nerdy and difficult to do anymore ... you just need to know that you should keep a backup of a working system in addition to constantly backing up you files via Time Machine and you should not update your machine during projects. Other then that, there is some time you need to spend looking at threads in certain forums regarding major updates and you should not be the jerk who always has to jump on the latest upgrade, just because you are curious about that one feature that is new ...
> Actually, it is all stuff you should do running any real Mac and care about a working system and data loss.



Would you mind sharing the specifics of your build?


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 4, 2019)

I think some of the minis have plenty of cpu for what we do. Myself I could not bring myself to spend $5k for a loaded up mini, good god.

My main beefs with the mini are more related to expansion. I LOVE, that I have 4 ssd drives inside my cheese grater box, I have an upgraded video card that performs much better then anything Apple ever shipped and as it turned out in the end was required for mojave Metal. But I was able to do that. Inside I have a high performance pci audio card that gives me nearly best in class latency. I have been able to upgrade to sata3 via pci slots and if I wanted I could upgrade usb too but I don’t need to. It is so quiet that I can’t hear if it’s on, even under load. it takes 128gb of ram and the cpu has been upgraded on this box at least twice during its lifetime.

with a mini or iMac you are severely limited on all of those things, sooner or later if you keep it more then 3 years you will run into road blocks and you will definitely end up with other dangling boxes for your audio and storage with cables going everywhere.

I have no idea how well they handle thermals but as Spock would say, simple logic would indicate that sooner or later those tiny little fans are going to have to crank up to cool it off, which means noise. And if it still gets hot then the cpu will throttle itself down.

On the positive side, they are cute little computers. In wouldn’t hesitate to get one for lessor tasks where I don’t need a lot of storage. Maybe for live gigging with mainstage. Or for a dedicated computer to handle video only or something where it will be perfectly fine to run it with 16gb ram and 2tb ssd inside and not worried about plugging in 2-3 displays, etc


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## Olfirf (Dec 5, 2019)

tomorrowstops said:


> Would you mind sharing the specifics of your build?


Sure! There is no secret in the fact that the i9 9900k processor with the Gigabyte designare Motherboard is a really good combination for a Hackintosh build. Add to that some other components like Apple supported graphic card, a special PCIe WiFi/Bluetooth card, etc and you just need to follow the instructions in one of the big threads of a Hackintosh-Forum. I won’t mention specifics, as there are alternatives and I don’t want to say which is better. I can only say this: if you stick to the components thoroughly, it will be easy. On all additional components you might need (e.g. 10gbe card in my case) you need to search the forum for clues which ones will work out of the box. I had some early hiccups, but all had to do with deviations from the build. Most difficult one was, a 128gb ram kit did not working the beginning. It has all been solved by now, but these are risks you need to understand: if you pick components that almost nobody picked so far, it might be that no one can help you, if you run into a problem or that you will wait some weeks until you find a solution. Sticking to proven combinations in the thread, you will pretty much have your Hackintosh working within a day.


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## Nate Johnson (Dec 5, 2019)

Interesting. I’ve spent the past couple of years considering which path to head down concerning this upgrade, and the hackintosh route pops up every now and then. Seems like its getting easier to do, albeit a bit of a daunting task. Even with all the wonderful guidelines out there, theres a degree of my own lack of understanding that gives me pause in pursuing the concept!


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## Olfirf (Dec 5, 2019)

tomorrowstops said:


> Interesting. I’ve spent the past couple of years considering which path to head down concerning this upgrade, and the hackintosh route pops up every now and then. Seems like its getting easier to do, albeit a bit of a daunting task. Even with all the wonderful guidelines out there, theres a degree of my own lack of understanding that gives me pause in pursuing the concept!


I can only recommend you to try it. Two pieces of advice:
1) Think of a way to utilize the PC as a Windows machine in case it shouldn’t work (e.g. VEPro machine). If you stick to what I wrote in the last post, it is very, very unlikely that it wouldn’t.
It is just good to have a plan like that to get rid of the fear of spending lots of money on something that does not work!  That part really worked for me to finally take the plunge ...
2) Research before buying! Choose a forum, where you find a fitting build, become a member, research the build a bit and ask questions regarding things you want to do differently. Ask questions about it and in most places, skilled people are very helpful. Then start ordering your system, after you figured out everything. Not the other way around, or you will likely have to buy some components again. It is also not necessary to buy everything at the beginning. You can for example just start with the motherboard, processor, Ram and one SSD for the OS. Add to that a cooler for the CPU and a case and that can already serve you as a base system to see how it goes. However, before deciding on the combo, it is good to plan other things ahead, like, how many SSDs and HDs do I need, how many thunderbolt ports, etc. There will be different base systems depending on your needs.


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## Nate Johnson (Dec 5, 2019)

Awesome. this is definitely sounding more like a possibility for me. The mistake I've always made in my past research was focusing on the parts first, instead of putting a proper plan together and then sourcing parts. 

I _do_ have an e-licenser with a copy of VEP5 laying around here somewhere....just in case I'm stuck with a Windows (ugh) computer!


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## Eloy (Dec 5, 2019)

I added a Mac Mini to my existing Mac Pro and the combo is great (VEP Pro on both machines). The Mac mini is running over 100 tracks of VSL with multiple matrices (20-30 on each track- some cells have 8-10 samples) and I never hear it and it always works -See attached photo.


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## Daniel Stenning (Dec 5, 2019)

My fully loaded 2018 i7 mini was runnig fine and lovely running both DAW and VEP on the same machine - with around 30GB of Kontakt and Vienna libraries loaded in RAM - running in a single instance in VEP.

But when it came time time to add the new Spitfire BBC SO library into the VEP instance (along with everything there already) thats when the fans started spinning. And although not hugely loud - just too obvious and noticeable. so I couldn't keep it as the main DAW AND VEP server machine any more.

So currently my 13" MBP acts as DAW client and the mini has become a pure VEP server housed in a separate room to isolate the main studio from any fan noise.

I opted to get s thunderbolt 3 dock Caltech ( which allows the MBP to be easily plugged in and unplugged with SSD drive and all manner of USB gadgets and screens hanging off it.

BUT I really think that to have a fully loaded mini as just a VEP server is a real waste of money so plan to gert a cheap PC in future just to run VEP and then return mini to use as DAW.

I just can't bear any fan noise - and once CPU usage was heading to around 300% that become an issue.


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## Wunderhorn (Dec 5, 2019)

Daniel Stenning said:


> I just can't bear any fan noise



This to me is one of the evidences that Apple does not care (enough) about creatives and has lost all vision to be truly innovative. It has long been proven that it is possible to build entire workstations without fans or any moving parts that would eliminate noise as well as dust accumulation.
Yes, the machine would be heavier and bulkier because of the heat sinks. But I'd rather have that instead of some modern looking design object on my desk.


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## jason.d (Dec 6, 2019)

I have a pretty tricked out PC workstation that I built last year for 3D rendering work but I use a Mac exclusively for Logic Pro. Logic is that important to me.

I recently migrated from a 2010 Mac Pro maxed out at 32GB of ram to a 2018 i7 Mac Mini with 64GB of RAM. I haven’t yet put it under stress with any large clusters of instruments, but so far it has been running pretty nicely. It has an external 4TB SSD and that has been holding all my samples.

I feel like I’m getting much better performance with it than I did on my old cheesegrater. I’m sure it’s no match for the new Mac Pro, but for a total of $2,800 (including the external drive) I think it’s a fantastic value in the MacOS world.


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## Nate Johnson (Dec 6, 2019)

Seems like a fully loaded Mini still doesn't give you enough headroom. Especially for those of you that run full orchestral templates. As usual, its tough to navigate anecdotal performance, as it seems like we all have slightly different approaches to computer resource management and/or the types and numbers of plugins used. 

Its interesting because based on the way that I manage my MBP, a fully loaded Mini should be perfectly fine for my work. 3 times the CPU, and 8 times the ram! HOWEVER, most of how I manage my computer now is based on working around its limitations!!!


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## dcoscina (Dec 6, 2019)

Wolfie2112 said:


> It would indeed, my 2013 MB Pro is still going strong six years later. You could save yourself at least $1000+ by ordering it with 8GB Ram and buying your own....and going with a 1TB internal. All of your samples should be stored externally, 1TB is plenty. Get yourself a good Thunderbolt 3 station, a couple of Samsung T5's, and you're good to go!


Yeah I went the Mp 6,1 route last year and haven’t looked back. I barely push it and it’s the quietest computer I’ve ever had. I bought an OWC Thunderbay to house my SSDs from my previous 3,1. I also like that it is able to disburse heat better than the iMac and Mac Mini. However I do miss having TB3 as that’s what every manufacturer is going with for hardware these days. Aside from that it was a good deal.


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## Nicholas (Dec 7, 2019)

I went for a spec‘d out Mac Mini in May this year, and I returned it after one week of use. I found the biggest bottleneck to be the Intel UHD graphics... It can’t even handle the HiDPI-Scaling built into macOS, so working on a UHD monitor wasn’t possible at all (the GUI Elements were just way too small)... and even on native UHD it started lagging when rapidly scrolling through a Cubase session. And it ramped up the fan constantly after a few minutes of session playback... I then spent 1000€ more and went for an iMac Pro which just performs like a beast now... 

I went through 3 different Mac Mini’s btw and they all did the same thing.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Dec 7, 2019)

Nicholas said:


> I then spent 1000€ more and went for an iMac Pro



That sounds cheap! Was it refurbished or something?


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## Symfoniq (Dec 7, 2019)

Wolfie2112 said:


> That sounds cheap! Was it refurbished or something?



A maxed-out Mac Mini isn't exactly cheap...


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## Nicholas (Dec 7, 2019)

Wolfie2112 said:


> That sounds cheap! Was it refurbished or something?



you are right, it was 2000€ more, I just included the screen, mouse and keyboard in my 1000€. Screen (27 UHD from Dell, which isn’t even the 5K LG yet which would be comparable to the iMac) was 700, plus magic keyboard and magic mouse was around 1000. That doesn’t even include a potential external GPU...


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## xgman (Dec 12, 2019)

Kind of a ridiculous comparison. Apples to Watermellons


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## Jeremy Spencer (Dec 12, 2019)

Symfoniq said:


> A maxed-out Mac Mini isn't exactly cheap...



If you put in your own Ram, the i7 with a 500GB SSD is one third the cost of the entry level Mac Pro. Albeit a completely different machine, but much more affordable.


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## Nicholas (Dec 12, 2019)

xgman said:


> Kind of a ridiculous comparison. Apples to Watermellons



Why? Of course the iMac Pro has more horsepower, but thats my point. The Mac mini is overpriced, it just doesn’t deliver for its price. And I think you have to include the display, keyboard and mouse in your calculation to keep it fair.

edit: I just realized you didn’t quote my post, so I don’t know if you were actually replying to my previous post... ah well


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 12, 2019)

jason.d said:


> I recently migrated from a 2010 Mac Pro maxed out at 32GB of ram



For what it's worth, the 2010 Mac Pro maxes out at 128GB of RAM if you flash the firmware to a 5,1. It costs a couple of hundred dollars, which isn't bad - and if I came close to filling up the 64GB I have installed, I'd do it.


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## jason.d (Dec 12, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> For what it's worth, the 2010 Mac Pro maxes out at 128GB of RAM if you flash the firmware to a 5,1. It costs a couple of hundred dollars, which isn't bad - and if I came close to filling up the 64GB I have installed, I'd do it.


Ah, didn’t know that. A few hundred dollars isn’t bad. Maybe that’s what the guy who I sold it to did! Haha.

I only had the single CPU variant, though. I’m assuming you have dual CPU since you’re able to max out at 64GB.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 13, 2019)

jason.d said:


> I’m assuming you have dual CPU since you’re able to max out at 64GB.



According to this, you're right.


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## MartinH. (Dec 14, 2019)

I've stumbled over this because I've watched a couple of videos by this guy in the past and I think he really knows what he's talking about regarding Mac hardware, because he's been repairing apple products all day long for many many years. I haven't watched the full video, but I hope it's useful to some of you:


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 14, 2019)

I watched about 8 minutes total out of the 20+, which means he's very good (because I don't normally watch videos like this - I went to elementary school and learned to read, and it's much faster). He makes the point about USB 2 early on, after which I watched what I watched just because he's articulate and entertaining. 

However, a guy I'm quoting without his permission wrote this:

"Louis has some great content on his channel and occasionally he does like to rant.
He does component level repair on Macs. So a lot of his ranting stems from the Right To Repair movement.
He has been sued by Apple in the past and is often used as an expert witness regarding Right to Repair cases.

I wonder how many people in the Mac world are actually using USB 2 interfaces to begin with.
I do know a few. At least one person has an M-Audio M-Track. She just recently got a 2018 MBP that has the T2 chip.
I helped her set it up and so far she has had no complaints about audio problems.
I realize that is anecdotal, but certainly evidence that the problem is not universal.
Makes me wonder how much drivers play a role in this issue.'


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 14, 2019)

There actually aren't very many USB3 audio interfaces because the industry determined that most people would not benefit from it. USB3 provides more bandwidth but not necessarily faster speed. So in other words, you can have more channels of audio going too a USB audio device, but latency will not be any lower. Most people only need stereo or a maybe 8 channels at the most of audio i/o in their home studios, so moving to USB3 as a standard for audio devices never really made any sense and most of the industry did not. Might as well make them USB2 for greater compatibility. 

USB3 is great for hard drives or other things that need higher bandwidth, or if you're a high level user trying to stream a lot more channels of audio in/out of your computer. But those kinds of high level users are probably using PCI, Thunderbolt3, etc. to stream more channels at low latency...like RME, MOTU, etc..

I don't know what the specs are for USB4 but if the speed is the same, there will be no advantage for most users as far as audio devices are concerned.


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## John Zuker (Dec 14, 2019)

Like some of you on these forums, I work on a mid 2010 Mac Pro with most of of the trimmings. That'll be a 10 year run, in 6 months. That's a pretty good run. Still works well for the most part, but my biggest pull towards getting a new Mac is being able to pair it with one of the newer UA Thunderbolt 3 interfaces which will give me a nice sonic upgrade, as well as access to their brilliant plug-ins. I'm guessing that I'll be able to go on another long run again if I get a new Mac Pro. Not sure if I'll get that longevity (or enough power) with anything less. I'd rather get overkilled than underserved in a few years.


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## edhamilton (Dec 14, 2019)

Louis was also an audio engineer and studio tech at Avatar in NYC for many years.


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## Wunderhorn (Dec 15, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I went to elementary school and learned to read, and it's much faster).



This!  (I like reading too)

He has a valid point, though I wonder how many people are affected by this particular issue. All the RME Babyface users (it's USB 2.0) - does it happen there? I don't know. But on a general level it is something Apple should be listening too.
But then similar things happen all over the place and from what I can see this carelessness is more happening the bigger the company gets (E.g. Adobe). It happens when the connection between user and developer is not happening anymore in some form. When a support team sits in in some far corner of the world and the development team never gets to hear about the reported issues the link is broken and quality products cannot be made.


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