# Anyone here attended the USC Grad Filmscore program



## Brian Ralston (Jan 10, 2009)

Ask away. :wink:


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## gsilbers (Jan 10, 2009)

wanted to know a few things..

pricing for the whole program. i couldnt find it in the website.

and how was your experience in the program? did u like it? 
did you know a lot before going in and learnt even more about filmscoring/music in general? 
is it way diferent than say, the ucla program?
how intensive is it?


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## JT3_Jon (Jan 10, 2009)

You can email USC and get the exact pricing as it fluctuates. I emailed them a few years ago found out it was WAY out of my budget.


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## gsilbers (Jan 10, 2009)

JT3_Jon @ Sat Jan 10 said:


> You can email USC and get the exact pricing as it fluctuates. I emailed them a few years ago found out it was WAY out of my budget.



how much a few years ago?


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## rgames (Jan 11, 2009)

If it's a graduate degree from USC, then the price would be whatever graduate tuition is at USC. Do college/university departments have individual prices for the degrees they grant?

If it's handled by the school but outside the university, then it could very well have a separate price. A lot of "executive degrees" are handled that way.

rgames


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## JT3_Jon (Jan 11, 2009)

I should clarify that I emailed them asking about not just the tuition (which is set by the university) but the "extra" costs like lab fees, books, etc. I don't have the info anymore as I have moved on from that dream, but they do have scholarships & grants available and of course student loans. Just email the music department and they will gladly let you know all about their programs/costs. In fact, they let me sit in on a class! Very nice people.


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## Brian Ralston (Jan 11, 2009)

Just got back from a day on the road and away from the computer...I will answer any and all of your questions to the best of my ability later tomorrow (sunday) if that is ok?


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## Brian Ralston (Jan 11, 2009)

> pricing for the whole program. i couldnt find it in the website.


The SMPTV program is part of the graduate music college. Also, it is an "advanced studies certificate" and not a full masters degree. Basically, because it is not an accredited program. Which allows them to run the program like a trade school program and not have to conform to the rules of graduate school like GRE test/scores and other national graduate exams, etc....

So, you have to be admitted to (or qualify for admission) to the graduate school at a minimum. They really only take about 20 people per year, give or take. It use to be pretty normal that qualified applicants would get put on the waiting list for a year due to demand and small class size of the SMPTV program.

The cost now I believe is the same as a regular graduate tuition. USC is a private school. not a state school like UCLA...so it is much more expensive. 

The graduate program tuition at USC costs 14,994.00 per semester. The SMPTV program is currently an intensive one year program. So...two mandatory semesters will cost roughly $30,000 tuition. 

Plus...you are required to pay for health insurance while you are a student. That costs $197 per semester (mandatory). 

And there may be other "lab" fees associated with the SMPTV program specifically that I am not currently aware of. 

A campus parking permit will cost between $150 and $330 per year, depending on what lots and garages you get. 

A listing of current USC fees can be found http://www.usc.edu/dept/publications/cat2004/general_info/tuition.html (HERE).

Also, don't forget to factor in the cost of living in Loo Angeles...which is very expensive. 



> and how was your experience in the program? did u like it?



One of the best things I had done in my life and career at that point. I feel fortunate that my class had the opportunity to study and learn from so many of the greats from the film scoring world before they left us. Buddy Baker, David Raksin, Joe Harnell, Elmer Bernstein. The program is very different now. But from what little I know...the changes Brian King made were better and have made the program an even stronger intensive year for the participants. You should really email or call Brian King and see if he has time to answer your questions too. he runs the program now. When I was in it...there was a lot of focus on the "old school" way of scoring film...with some focus on the newer technology. Now...there seems to be a lot of focus on the new technology. Which is probably a good thing. 



> did you know a lot before going in and learnt even more about filmscoring/music in general?



I felt I knew a lot already. But of course, I always have a lot more to learn. I still learn something from every project and experience I have. there were quite a few on my class who were talented composers...but did not have a history with scoring to picture and the program was an introduction of that craft to them. Many had a diverse array of talents and experiences that made our class very unique in my opinion. 



> is it way different than say, the ucla program?



Yes...very different. UCLA's classes are part of their extension program. Not part of their core graduate program. And their classes (and overall program) is not as "planned" from what I know. But I am sure that is changing as well. Anyone who has done UCLA can chime in an give a better opinion of their program. USC's program has a strong connection to the entertainment industry in this town and the experiences it provides for its full time participants are unique and like no other program. 



> how intensive is it?



Pretty intensive. But it will all depend on what you make of it too. Some folks in my class would put off working on cue assignments till the last couple days before and end up with crappy recordings. Others would take the entire time given to write, re-write and truly prepare for each session. A couple folks believe it or even skipped sessions. Which was not only a waste of a lot of money their tuition was paying for...but also showed a complete lack of respect for all parties involved. 

So...in general, you will get out of it what you put in to it. No one is going to hold your hand on assignments. You get them assigned and you know when they are due. You know the class schedule and it will be up to you to attend class. The more you take the initiative to make use of the tools and resources available to you in the program, the better experience you will have.

Thinking back...if I had the opportunity to do it all again, I would in a second. It will really give you some real world session experience as well as some dedicated theory discussion of the history of film scoring that you will find in no other program of its kind. Maybe at Berkley in Boston...but the proximity of USC's program to Hollywood makes it unique.


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## gsilbers (Jan 11, 2009)

thanks. thats a great response. 

i did berklee in boston but not the filmscore program. i was more focused on the tech part. still happy w it. wished i had done the scoring program but i was aready in 2 majors. 
u always wanna take all the classes. 

so you mentioned how intensive it was in writing cues and session. how about thoery and 
homework? was homework about writing cues with sessions recordings as you mentioned or did it had other aspects?

as for the UCLA i was asking cause charles bernstein who teaches one class there was mentioning that they wanted to make it more like the usc program which at 200-300 per class.. i dunno.. too much of a bargain if u know what iam sayin.. :? 

so , what books do (did) you get? 

and thx again for your response.


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## Brian Ralston (Jan 11, 2009)

gsilbers @ Sun Jan 11 said:


> so you mentioned how intensive it was in writing cues and session. how about thoery and homework? was homework about writing cues with sessions recordings as you mentioned or did it had other aspects?



Know that what I am about to tell you is what I went through. There may be some variations with what they do today...7 years later. But...there were essentially two major aspects to work. Every instructor was "in charge" of assigning and overseeing a cue assignment. Every two weeks or so, on a weekend, we would be on the scoring stage at Paramount with LA studio musicians recording our music to a given scene from a film chosen by our instructor. So...we would have those entire two weeks to prapare for it. To compose, orchestrate, generate parts, create demos, practice conducting for the session and then have the session. 

While all of that would go on every two weeks...we had daily classes. Some focused on discussion of the technical aspects of scoring...others on the history of film music...others on orchestrational techniques or Sibelius instruction, Pro Tools/Digital Performer/Logic instruction, etc...Other classes were general mixing techniques...using the equipment, how to mic things, etc...We would have some tests given by the various instructors...sometimes on a weekly basis. And sometimes there would be compositional assignments in addition to the bi-weekly ones. Liek Christopher Young wanted us to come in one week with 5 main title themes written and recorded. his focus was the on writing thematic material for motion pictures scores in "song form" regardless of whether there is an actual song based on the score theme for the film or not. So he wanted to hear us tackle that. 

In general..there was a not a lot of formal music theory. There is an assumed level that all participants must be at to even get into the program. Officially, you must have an undergraduate degree in music composition to even be considered. But there are cases where not everyone had that...including mine. But you do have to have at least an undergraduate degree to satisfy the USC graduate college requirements at a minimum. Then...at least prove that you are at the graduate level in music in some way. 



gsilbers @ Sun Jan 11 said:


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## IvanP (Jan 11, 2009)

Wow, Brian, what an incredible experience...how I wished I could go there...

Any folks who did Film scoring at Berklee want to chime in? I may have the possibility of going next three years at the expense of leaving my classical composition and conducting studies in the middle, but this seems like a once in a life ticket and I want to make sure it's truly worth it...I'd be doing Film scoring and try to take the Classical Composition major as well should they accept that as well...

So, can you share your Berklee experience, specially in how it could be compared to the USC program in terms of live experience and "readyness" for the industry?

Thank you guys!


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## c0mp0ser (Jan 12, 2009)

I did the USC Film Scoring program in 2002. Brian R explained it really well.

It was one of the best experiences I had. The best part, of course, were the scoring sessions.
In my case we had about 12 scoring sessions, mostly at Paramount stage M. The ensembles varied in instrumentation and size, mostly 14 piece groups, with a 60piece and a 90 piece at the end of the year. One session, for David Raksin, was an old-school charlie chaplin ensemble. Another session, with Jack Smalley was a big band, with players from the Henry Mancini Institute. One session, a very practical one, was just two guitar players and we had to have synth prelays. One session, with Joe Harnell was a 24 piece group, strings, horns and a couple WW scoring a main title theme. The big 60 piece orch at the end was re-scoring a scene of our choosing.

So at the end, you have a pretty awesome sounding demo.

My only qualm that I had, was that at the time, there wasn't enough emphasis on the technology. We talked very little about samples, and midi orchestration etc... I know that's a lot different now though.

I also have to say that it's proximity to the USC Cinema school makes it stand out. I have friends who's USC shorts I scored in school, and now they're on to bigger and better things (6 years later). One friend is directing a feature this year, which I'll be scoring, and another guy is an assistant producer on a new tv show... and we'll see where that leads... you kinda come up the ranks with your peers and USC is a great place to meet them.

Anyway, if you're interested, you should get in touch with Brian King and sit in on a class or something. You can find him on facebook.


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## gsilbers (Jan 12, 2009)

IvanP @ Mon Jan 12 said:


> Wow, Brian, what an incredible experience...how I wished I could go there...
> 
> Any folks who did Film scoring at Berklee want to chime in? I may have the possibility of going next three years at the expense of leaving my classical composition and conducting studies in the middle, but this seems like a once in a life ticket and I want to make sure it's truly worth it...I'd be doing Film scoring and try to take the Classical Composition major as well should they accept that as well...
> 
> ...



for what i get, the usc can be more of a graduate program so you need a bachelor of some sort, right/?

as for berklee, i can tell you that no matter what major you choose you still have to do the basic music program. basic is a small word here but the program is 4 jazz harmony classes at the same time than 4 ear training classes, ensembles and then you have 4 traditional harmony classes. music history and counterpoint classes and then there are electives courses which you can take advance compositions like 12 tone and other 20th century composition classes as well as advance jazz and writing for big bands and the like. also film scoring offers a variety of elective courses plus the required classes. 
some of the elective looked pretty nice. 

seems berklee is more complete for overall music as for usc looks more for AFTER a regular music college that focuses on the traditional music only which in your case sounds like a good idea.


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## midphase (Jan 12, 2009)

"So, can you share your Berklee experience, specially in how it could be compared to the USC program in terms of live experience and "readyness" for the industry? "

Sounds like USC is pretty much the opposite of Berklee in the sense that at Berklee there is a very very strong emphasis on the technology and virtually no live recording. Definitely nothing with orchestras unless something has really changed.

I have a bit of an unpopular view of music colleges oriented towards technology based applications like film scoring. When I went to Berzerklee...there was no internet, no real film scoring tech books, or engineering books. I wanted to go to a school that could get me up to speed with how to score for picture as quickly as possible, and since USC didn't offer an undergraduate FS program, I went to Berklee.

However....nowadays I feel that all of the technology that has to do with scoring to picture can be learned by searching the internet and asking questions on forums like these. Berklee is probably damn close to $50k/year including living expenses (perhaps more than that). That would be $200k or more of personal debt after graduating with a degree in a field which requires a couple of years of little to no pay internship, and probably another decade or so of "paying the dues" and making damn close to minimum wage.

I'm sorry guys but in my mind...it just doesn't compute!

I guess if your mommy and daddy are rich enough to pay for everything, and then keep your interning-ass above water for the next few years after that...then by all means take advantage of this amazing opportunity that the universe has provided for you. However if you're looking to student-loan yourself into the dark ages just so that you can learn how to build a tempo-map in Digital Performer...I can't help but think there are better and less financially destabilizing ways out there.

IMHO (as all my posts always are), if you're already in a good MUSIC school, one that is teaching you theory, composition, counterpoint, arranging and orchestration, and maybe even conducting...that is all you need. All of the technology side of things, you can learn on your own and by interning.

If I could do it all over, knowing what I know now, I would skip Berklee...try to get into Julliard if I could...and if I couldn't I'd find myself the best composition private instructor I could find and spend two years of intense one-on-one education doing that.


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## gsilbers (Jan 12, 2009)

midphase @ Mon Jan 12 said:


> "So, can you share your Berklee experience, specially in how it could be compared to the USC program in terms of live experience and "readyness" for the industry? "
> 
> Sounds like USC is pretty much the opposite of Berklee in the sense that at Berklee there is a very very strong emphasis on the technology and virtually no live recording. Definitely nothing with orchestras unless something has really changed.
> 
> ...





i think now there is a recording room in the film score dept for small ensembles, which is more "real life" experice than a whole orchestra. damn good if u get out of college recording a film score with a whole orchestra. there is also the big recording rooms for the production and engineering classes. 
but its more what you get out of it. if you want to record one violin in your scoring session then so be it, but i have friends in the film score dept that arrange to record a whole orchestra several times in the big recording stages and also in the 3 classical schools next door to berklee which have very good orchestra players.

but i do agree that if you are in a good music school already but doesnt have film scoring then you still have to finish that cuase its the music you need to learn and then do FS and go to USC or UCLA or maybe even berklee by transferring credits. thats what i did and finished 2 majors in 2 years cause all the transfer credits i had. wished i went there 1st and had more time there but thats my story.


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## IvanP (Jan 12, 2009)

Thank you guys and sorry for hijacking this thread 

@Gilbers, I'm not sure where am I in terms of graduate/undergraduate...I've been learning on my own since quite some time and then I decided I needed more training if I wanted to achieve what I wanted to do...long story short, I quit my daily job and I'm basically surviving for being able to keep on learning and getting gigs + paying my rent. I guess the entry exam might put me in a level or another...It's also good to hear that Brian wasn't fully trained at the moment, since I'm probably closer to his case....I just need the money now  

@Midphase: Are you sure there is no real experience? how on earth do you american guys achieve such and incredible orchestration and writing craft?  


If I get accepted at Berklee, it would be with a 3 year scholarship, it came out as a once in a life opportunity, reason why I'm wondering if it's worth not finishing the composition and conducting conservatory. I don't think I'd get such a scholarship by then, therefore my dilemma...

Some people also told me that Berklee experience also depends on which teachers you get as well, but I was expecting there at least some nice orchestral rehearsals before selling yourself as a "pro"....

Will need to find some current students to compare, but thks a lot for your answers, I appreciate them


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## Brian Ralston (Jan 12, 2009)

IvanP @ Mon Jan 12 said:


> It's also good to hear that Brian wasn't fully trained at the moment, since I'm probably closer to his case....I just need the money now



 Well...not sure what one would consider not being fully trained. Yes, I have an undergraduate Bachelors degree in Biochemistry, took the MCAT tests and was in the process of applying for medical school when I officially made the switch to music. But...at that point, I had played piano and studied it privately for about 12 years...I had played trumpet and studied it privately for about 9 years...I have performed in classical orchestras on the trumpet throughout the US and in many other countries throughout Europe by the age of 18. I was first chair trumpet in many all state bands and orchestras as well as one of the national honor bands. Also, I had been composing my own music (for myself) since I was in junior high school (early teen years)...and throughout undergraduate school I had scored student films at the U of Arizona and buddied up to the film scoring professor there on an internship basis for many years. 

So...while my formal undergraduate degree was in Biochemistry and not music...my life was really music performance and starting to become music composition by the time I went to college. It really just took an epiphany for me to decide that I should be making my passion in life my career and not just a hobby.


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## midphase (Jan 12, 2009)

"@Midphase: Are you sure there is no real experience? how on earth do you american guys achieve such and incredible orchestration and writing craft?"

Well...Berklee students are mostly guitar, piano, brass, drums and vocal performers. When I went there you simply couldn't find a violinist or cellist to save your life. It would make sense that they teamed up with New England Conservatory which is nearby...I just don't know how it works and how often the students have access to an actual orchestra (or even a small chamber orchestra for that matter).

Regarding your second question, do you read the end credits of the films that you find are well orchestrated? I'd be willing to bet that the composer availed himself of an orchestrator...and quite possibly someone who didn't go to Berklee or USC! As a matter of fact, the two composers whom I know do all their own orchestrations are both European (Morricone and Desplat).


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## IvanP (Jan 13, 2009)

Sorry, Brian, didn't mean to sound as you were an amateur  I understood that you didn't have a Major in composition by then, even if you were already composing at the time, which is at least my case.

Midphase, u're right about the European guys, but also yes, I did meet a couple of names in the orchestration business, one of them actually studied at Berklee and after that he went on arranging for Williams at the Boston Pops for some years. But I couldn't ask him if he learned everything at Berklee since I wasn't interested in that school at the time :mrgreen: 


Thank you guys, 

Iván


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## Brian Ralston (Jan 13, 2009)

Oh...no worries about that at all. Just wanted more to lay that out so you would not think that USC's requirements for admission were easily fudged. For me...I had to formally appeal to the graduate admissions committee that I was up to the graduate level of music study even though my undergraduate degree was in Biochem. USC's film scoring program at the time did not accept recommendations, (only your music could speak for you), but I had to have them. I had to have a handful of high level music professors at the U of Arizona submit letters on my behalf...as well as a whole portfolio of classical compositions fully orchestrated, etc...I suppose I was doing something right because I was accepted. And ironically...later that year (after I got in), the new head of the school of music at USC was a professor coming from the U of Arizona that I already knew...though never studied with. And Buddy Baker (head of the SMPTV program at the time) and I connected...probably because we were both trumpet players. But I did have to jump through a few more hoops at the time than the regular applicant who already had a music composition degree.


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