# Shots fired!



## Paul Owen (Mar 29, 2018)

Didn't know there was any kind of rivalry between the two. On the face of it the tweet seems a little unnecessary but away from public view some tension might be brewing...


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## jamwerks (Mar 29, 2018)




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## rottoy (Mar 29, 2018)

Between the two? Which two? I think it's vague enough to be a general statement on the dislike for certain design & PR decisions.


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## mouse (Mar 29, 2018)

Spitfire?


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## RiffWraith (Mar 29, 2018)




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## Puzzlefactory (Mar 29, 2018)

rottoy said:


> Between the two? Which two? I think it's vague enough to be a general statement on the dislike for certain design & PR decisions.



Between Cinesamples and Spitfire...


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## Mr. Ha (Mar 29, 2018)

This is so weird... Didn't they make a library with Tina Guo, which they marketed heavily?


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## John Busby (Mar 29, 2018)

Mr. Ha said:


> This is so weird... Didn't they make a library with Tina Guo, which they marketed heavily?


it's a solid library tho, and the stand-alone legato patch for $99 is great too!


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## rottoy (Mar 29, 2018)

Puzzlefactory said:


> Between Cinesamples and Spitfire...


I figured as much, was just trying to make a point that it's not necessarily a beef between the two.


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## ctsai89 (Mar 29, 2018)

Drama queen (me) watches this thread


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## VinRice (Mar 29, 2018)

How silly...


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## Paul Owen (Mar 29, 2018)

rottoy said:


> I figured as much, was just trying to make a point that it's not necessarily a beef between the two.



Seems possible considering the content of the tweet and the timing of it. Or if it's a dislike for working practices why feel the need to voice it?


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## rottoy (Mar 29, 2018)

Paul Owen said:


> Seems possible considering the content of the tweet and the timing of it. Or if it's a dislike for working practices why feel the need to voice it?


An inference is not a confirmation.


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## Paul Owen (Mar 29, 2018)

rottoy said:


> An inference is not a confirmation.



True and I never said it was. I only said it was possible.


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## kaiyoti (Mar 29, 2018)

Forcing a kontakt upgrade fee on an update is also what Cinesample does that no one else seems to do. So they at least have that. There's the "respect" for customers.


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## blougui (Mar 29, 2018)

Kinda reminds me veiled criticism from 8Dio toward SA, here, on VI.C.


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## RiffWraith (Mar 29, 2018)

kaiyoti said:


> Forcing a kontakt upgrade fee on an update is also what Cinesample does that no one else seems to do.



Huh?


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## NoamL (Mar 29, 2018)

Let me just drop this in, how many times do you hear the CineSamples guys bragging that they record their libraries on the same stage as... if I recall correctly... E.T. The Extra-Terrerstrial, Schindler’s List, Elfman’s Spider-Man, most of Randy Newman’s Pixar scores, Michael Giacchino’s Star Trek 2009, ALL of Zimmer’s Pirates sequels, and Jurassic freaking Park?

AIR isn’t the only space in the world with a pedigree worth marketing, nor a sound that speaks for itself.


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## Kyle Preston (Mar 29, 2018)

Can't we just get along...actually I felt like testing that question out. Here's a ditty featuring Cinesamples AND Spitfire. Look at them sitting next to each other, fine and happy. Even 8dio joined in. It's all good. We're all good.


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## prodigalson (Mar 29, 2018)

wow, I like Mike and Cinesamples a lot and am as much as customer of theirs as I am spitfire but that's pretty silly and uncalled for. I understand there's bound to be a certain amount of professional envy involved in this business and it's very competitive but it's not a good look to not-so-subtly go after a competitor's product on the day of release via twitter.


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## NoamL (Mar 29, 2018)

Well I disagree with him saying it publicly while still appreciating a frustration that marketing (on nearly ALL sides, not just Spitfire) is driving things so much towards a world where spiffy pre order oriented marketing drives the biggest chunk of sales. No?

Also about Tina’s Cello - there’s a significant difference here, this isn’t an artist designed library, it IS the artist and the sound she creates/uses. Just like the Joshua Bell Violin. The HZ equivalent if you like would be Dark Zebra and all the sounds that come straight from the films.


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## Greg (Mar 29, 2018)

Taking pointless shots at your competitors on twitter doesn't make great virtual instruments either. #thursdaythought


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## patrick76 (Mar 29, 2018)

Yeah that's weird. Wasn't there an announcement thread about their new piano here also? I can't seem to find it now. Hoping to hear some user feedback soon.


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## asinclaire (Mar 29, 2018)

Well, it is an $800 pad library.

The only ones who get fucked here are the customers falling for the marketing. $800 is a shitload of money for a library that has monstrous hardware requirements, and isn't a good sounding string library. It's a good sounding PAD library. Your block chords will now sound better than ever. And that's really it.

CineSamples libraries are very user friendly. Their GUI isn't pretty, but it's effective. They don't have monstrous system requirements - you can easily run the entire CineSamples orchestra off of an HDD with 32GB of RAM with the mixed mic, it will sound better than the Spitfire one AND be easier to program. CineSamples update their products and don't repackage them. Just take a look at the latest CineBrass CORE update.

Mike has every right to say what he's saying. Does that make him a dick? What does snobby marketing of an overpriced *180GB pad player *make the Spitfire guys, then?


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## Kyle Preston (Mar 29, 2018)

asinclaire said:


> Well, it is an $800 pad library.
> 
> The only ones who get fucked here are customers falling for the marketing. $800 is a shitload of money for a library that has monstrous hardware requirements, and isn't a good sounding string library. It's a good sounding PAD library. Your block chords will now sound better than ever. And that's really it.



More shots fired...


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## asinclaire (Mar 29, 2018)

I mean look, I'll just leave this here and let Daniel make his point

05:18:00 Timestamp in case it doesn't display properly.


Which one do you think it sounds more musical? He did many more comparisons throughout his video.


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## quantum7 (Mar 29, 2018)

asinclaire said:


> Well, it is an $800 pad library.
> 
> The only ones who get fucked here are customers falling for the marketing. $800 is a shitload of money for a library that has monstrous hardware requirements, and isn't a good sounding string library. It's a good sounding PAD library. Your block chords will now sound better than ever. And that's really it.



Considering I paid $3000 for a prophet 12 synthesizer just for pads, I guess $800 for some awesome string pad goodness isn’t too bad. LOL. Seriously though, I have a strong feeling that this time next year HZ Strings is going to have a long list of improvements and changes that will make it the library that most of us were hoping that it would be. It seems to me that Christian and Paul put waaaay too much time, passion, and money into this project to allow it to fail.


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## asinclaire (Mar 29, 2018)

quantum7 said:


> Considering I paid $3000 for a prophet 12 synthesizer just for pads, I guess $800 for some awesome string pad goodness isn’t too bad. LOL.


You knew you were buying pads. Nowhere is this library marketed as a pad library, yet it's precisely what it is.



quantum7 said:


> Seriously though, I have a strong feeling that this time next year HZ Strings is going to have a long list of improvements and changes that will make it the library that most of us were hoping that it would be. It seems to me that Christian and Paul put waaaay too much time, passion, and money into this project to allow it to fail.


It's this kind of attitude that allows developers to get away with shit like this. Right now, at this moment, it's an $800 product, under-demonstrated, buggy, inconsistent, and a massive hardware hog *that you cannot refund or re-sell*. 

And people wonder why piracy exists.


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## D Halgren (Mar 29, 2018)

asinclaire said:


> You knew you were buying pads. Nowhere is this library marketed as a pad library, yet it's precisely what it is.
> 
> 
> It's this kind of attitude that allows developers to get away with shit like this. Right now, at this moment, it's an $800 product, under-demonstrated, buggy, inconsistent, and a massive hardware hog *that you cannot refund or re-sell*.
> ...


Right now it cost $599, and is running just fine on my system. Honestly, Phobos is a lot more CPU hungry. Also, it doesn't sound like pads to me.


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## MillsMixx (Mar 29, 2018)

This is going to be a long thread. I love it.


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## Zhao Shen (Mar 29, 2018)

Jesus guys, he's not saying that marketing, famous names, etc. are bad. He's saying that libraries should be valued for their content, and all the other stuff is just extra. There is absolutely no hypocrisy in that statement.

Personally, I think HZS is the least interesting and most overpriced product Spitfire has ever released. Part of that is a lack of truly inspiring content, part of it is the library lacking in identity and innovation, and part of it is the high standard that I associate with Spitfire Audio. I just see absolutely no reason that a customer would buy this library over the numerous outstanding releases they already have in their catalog. For the base price of HZS you could snag two volumes of Albion - two volumes of a product packed to the brim with creativity, uniqueness, and usefulness. Or you could get HZS for a few cool string patches and a whole lot of standard stuff that doesn't really differentiate itself from the numerous other string libraries out there.


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## quantum7 (Mar 29, 2018)

[QUOTE="asinclaire”] You knew you were buying pads. Nowhere is this library marketed as a pad library, yet it's precisely what it is.
.[/QUOTE]

Hopefully you realize that I was just trying to lighten up a tense situation. . You seems pretty upset though, so I’m assuming that you purchased this library? I’m just curious, and am not in any way discounting your understandable concern.


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## Johnny (Mar 29, 2018)

asinclaire said:


> I mean look, I'll just leave this here and let Daniel make his point
> 
> 05:18:00 Timestamp in case it doesn't display properly.
> 
> ...



Symphobia 1 and 2 sounds a lot like Albion octaves too! I appreciate Daniel's honesty.


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## kaiyoti (Mar 29, 2018)

RiffWraith said:


> Huh?



When Cinewinds 1.2 came out, which had the ensemble patch / de-noised samples, they also decided to make it a registered Kontakt Player library (it wasn't before). They made Cinewind 1.1 owners pay for 29 bucks for the upgrade, for each of the two (Cinewinds and Cinewinds Pro), despite the so-called "free ensemble patch upgrades" they claimed when they launched Cinesymphony Lite.

I decided to never buy from them again.


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## jamwerks (Mar 30, 2018)

That's unfortunatly kind of typical for the Mike's to make these kinds of statements. There's a pretty long history of them.

Of all the major devs, they are really the last in line when it comes to innovation and furthering the art of sampling. 

On top it's clearly SF who are constantly pushing the bar. And yes, it's takes good marketing to sell innovation to people. You learn that in Business 101, that I guess the Mike's never took. Oh, and what's the name of that company that donates 1% to charity?

As for HZS, it's a speciality library. You may not need it in your palette to do what you do, but if you can't hear the potential in it, you're probably in the wrong field.


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## blougui (Mar 30, 2018)

LEt’s not forget SA is coming to LA for a launch event...
Might explain the tweet too.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Mar 30, 2018)

Either his tweet was meant a bit sarcastic or there might speak maybe a bit of frustration from it. Not sure, maybe both of it. When you connect the dots sure it easily leads to the latest release of Spitfire HZ Strings. I mean CS and Spitfire are competitors on the market, so I guess that is the way of marketing against such marketing what Spitfire does. You can like or dislike spitfire course with huge name branding their products. If the product is fine, well I have no problem with that. Does HZ Strings really is a game changer library just for me personally: not that much for me. Sure all the mic positions are cool, and the overly sized sections give a lush sound. But for me always the core aspect of compositions is so much more important. So for me it is a fine niche string product for sure, but I wouldn´t invest into it just because I don´t feel that my compositions would any benefit from it. But thats a personal question each single one of you can decide. Is it bad to use big names to brand his own products..? No, it is a matter of philosophy. We are living in name branding times where names sell better, this thing is not new, Spitfire just shows how its done on a bigger level. If you feel good working with a sampler having the name HZ in it, well go for it.
And yes his tweet was aimed towards the HZStrings product after I read some of the comments in the tweet from him.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 30, 2018)

asinclaire said:


> it will sound better than the Spitfire one AND be easier to program.



Nope.


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## ctsai89 (Mar 30, 2018)

In the end of the day business is business...

@AlexanderSchiborr i agree with you on the "names"

To be honest, in the EDM scene or any other music genre industries you name it, or even in the crowd of film producers and actors, as long as someone sees a name of someone famous (Hans Zimmer, Bruce Willis, Spielberg) it is automatically going to generate good money and draw attention

There are plenty of EDM producers that make good EDM but don't get themselves signed to famous labels (with names like spinnin' records) vs the EDM producers that make crappy music but are signed and have had their music played by tiesto. It goes really well for those that are signed


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Mar 30, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> Nope.



Well, the funny thing is in regards of what sounds better is for me so much connected with who inputs the data. Having said that: I have heard great sounding results both from CS libraries as well from Spitfire and also bad sounding stuff from both of them.



ctsai89 said:


> In the end of the day business is business...
> 
> @AlexanderSchiborr i agree with you on the "names"
> 
> ...



Yepp I agree here. Though big names are not a freeticket to sell shitty products but they increase the chances a lot even to sell mediocre products pretty well. The past shows. Imagine Musical sampling would have entitled their adventure brass "Alan Silvestri brass essentials"? I am sure they could have charged more and sold double the copies.


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## axb312 (Mar 30, 2018)

Seriously guys HZ strings is such a shit show. Bad sounding legato, inability to handle 16th note shorts, way too many mics and a whole bunch of other issues. I am surprised that there aren't more people lashing out at spitfire and their marketing practices.

Mike has given his personal opinion from his personal Twitter account. Good if it saves people from overpriced junk right?

Worst thing is I actually feel disappointed...


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Mar 30, 2018)

axb312 said:


> Seriously guys HZ strings is such a shit show. Bad sounding legato, inability to handle 16th note shorts, way too many mics and a whole bunch of other issues. I am surprised that there aren't more people lashing out at spitfire and their marketing practices.
> 
> Mike has given his personal opinion from his personal Twitter account. Good if it saves people from overpriced junk right?
> 
> Worst thing is I actually feel disappointed...



It is not popular on this forum to critizise Spitfire products or HZ. In that case it is even more delicate because this product combines both big names. If you go against the mainstream you may be confronted with shitstorms which happened in the past quite often. That is the reason why probably people shut their mouth before having a big discussion which often leads to calling names.


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## blougui (Mar 30, 2018)

Hey, asinclair : 7 posts and 6 just to stab SA. Are you a shill ?


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## rottoy (Mar 30, 2018)

asinclaire said:


> I mean look, I'll just leave this here and let Daniel make his point
> 
> 05:18:00 Timestamp in case it doesn't display properly.
> 
> ...



I have to admit I chuckled when he said, with great exasperation 
"Everybody is expecting 'Time' from Inception. That's the Hans Zimmer sound.".


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## James Everingham (Mar 30, 2018)

This is a hugely unnecessary thread, Mike didn't name any names and is entitled to his own opinion on his personal Twitter. Already lots of threads discussing HZ Strings, no need to incite tension between two devs. Moving on


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## Puzzlefactory (Mar 30, 2018)

Zhao Shen said:


> Jesus guys, he's not saying that marketing, famous names, etc. are bad. He's saying that libraries should be valued for their content, and all the other stuff is just extra. There is absolutely no hypocrisy in that statement.
> 
> Personally, I think HZS is the least interesting and most overpriced product Spitfire has ever released. Part of that is a lack of truly inspiring content, part of it is the library lacking in identity and innovation, and part of it is the high standard that I associate with Spitfire Audio. I just see absolutely no reason that a customer would buy this library over the numerous outstanding releases they already have in their catalog. For the base price of HZS you could snag two volumes of Albion - two volumes of a product packed to the brim with creativity, uniqueness, and usefulness. Or you could get HZS for a few cool string patches and a whole lot of standard stuff that doesn't really differentiate itself from the numerous other string libraries out there.




Eh? 

Other than Tundra where are you going to find the articulations in HZ strings for that price?

Sure you could get Berlin strings but that starts at £800 with about 5 expansions each £200 (not including VAT). 

Lacking identity, innovation and differentiation are not ways I would describe the library for that price point.


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## rottoy (Mar 30, 2018)

James Everingham said:


> This is a hugely unnecessary thread, Mike didn't name any names and is entitled to his own opinion on his personal Twitter. Already lots of threads discussing HZ Strings, no need to incite tension between two devs. Moving on


I pointed this out (in a way) in post #3 of this thread, but to no avail.


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## Puzzlefactory (Mar 30, 2018)

No he didn’t name any names...

He just made the tweet on the day that Spitfire released Hz Strings...


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Mar 30, 2018)

Puzzlefactory said:


> No he didn’t name any names...
> 
> He just made the tweet on the day that Spitfire released Hz Strings...



He made the tweet on the same day my independent small company released its "Unknown Intimate Village Idiot Strings - Friends 'n' Family Edition".


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## rottoy (Mar 30, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> He made the tweet on the same day my independent small company released its "Unknown Intimate Village Idiot Strings - Friends 'n' Family Edition".


I honestly don't understand what you were thinking with all that wasted GUI space. 
It's almost as if an idiot designed it.


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## blougui (Mar 30, 2018)

rottoy said:


> I honestly don't understand what you were thinking with all that wasted GUI space.
> It's almost as if an idiot designed it.


At least the team behind « N » knew what they were doing...


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## rottoy (Mar 30, 2018)

blougui said:


> At least the team behind « N » knew what they were doing...


Yeah, they really extolled the virtues of knowing Nothing.


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## blougui (Mar 30, 2018)

Exactly !
I’m always wondering why the regular pack of dev’ haven’t yet ripped off their ideas


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## Paul Owen (Mar 30, 2018)

James Everingham said:


> This is a hugely unnecessary thread, Mike didn't name any names and is entitled to his own opinion on his personal Twitter. Already lots of threads discussing HZ Strings, no need to incite tension between two devs. Moving on



Why is it unnecessary? Sure, I could have read the tweet and thought "oh dear, that looks like he's having a pop at SA. Oh well..." and left it there. But he posted in a public forum (Twitter) and I reposted here. I enjoy reading people's opinions on matters such as these and would assume others feel the same. Granted, the title of the thread is a little click baity but fuck it, I enjoy the discussion and wanted to see others thoughts on the matter. And besides, this is a discussion forum and people are discussing the matter...including you so I guess I got what I wanted. Also, if we're talking about unnecessary then I can expect to see you commenting on 70% of the forums about how 'this thread is so unnecessary'. 

All the best


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## rottoy (Mar 30, 2018)

Paul Owen said:


> Why is it unnecessary? Sure, I could have read the tweet and thought "oh dear, that looks like he's having a pop at SA. Oh well..." and left it there. But he posted in a public forum (Twitter) and I reposted here. I enjoy reading people's opinions on matters such as these and would assume others feel the same. Granted, the title of the thread is a little click baity but fuck it, I enjoy the discussion and wanted to see others thoughts on the matter. And besides, this is a discussion forum and people are discussing the matter...including you so I guess I got what I wanted. Also, if we're talking about unnecessary then I can expect to see you commenting on 70% of the forums about how 'this thread is so unnecessary'.
> 
> All the best


I think the fundament for the discussion would've been more sound if the original post had come from the actual "Cinesamples" account, not from the personal Twitter of one of it's founders. It does feel a little pointed to dig through a personal Twitter in search of discussion material for a discussion regarding business ethics.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Mar 30, 2018)

rottoy said:


> I honestly don't understand what you were thinking with all that wasted GUI space.
> It's almost as if an idiot designed it.



You will not be getting lifetime free updates, sir.


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## N.Caffrey (Mar 30, 2018)

I find Mike's comment a bit silly. It's his personal Twitter but not private so I don't think OP did bad posting it. And as some people said, they did a library with Tina Guo, with a fancy GUI, etc. I'm honestly surprised a big and respected developer would say something like this so openly.


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## rottoy (Mar 30, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> You will not be getting lifetime free updates, sir.


That's okay, I'm already bought well into "N". 
At least they value their customers blunt honesty (or was it casual abuse? I don't remember.)


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## Paul Owen (Mar 30, 2018)

rottoy said:


> I think the fundament for the discussion would've been more sound if the original post had come from the actual "Cinesamples" account, not from the personal Twitter of one of it's founders. It does feel a little pointed to dig through a personal Twitter in search of discussion material for a discussion regarding business ethics.



Firstly, I didn't dig anything out, I follow the guy on Twitter and saw a notification that he had tweeted and I had a read. Secondly, he's the founder of the Cinesamples which is widely known and which he states at the top of his profile (he's even including a handy link to the official Cinesamples profile too). He's representing the company publicly and vocally and explicitly and in plain sight with no apparent "the views expressed are entirely my own" type mantra. I personally couldn't give a shit if he has a problem with SA and their way of working, it was just interesting to see a thinly veiled dig on twitter that's all. And anyway, if he didn't want to provoke a response then why post it to twitter at all? All the best


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## Dr Belasco (Mar 30, 2018)

Wow this thread has really gone off the rails.


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## alextone (Mar 30, 2018)

And yet....
No linux native versions of any modern lib.
My old and much loved Sonic Implants Orchestral collection in Gig format works wonderfully in Linuxsampler, which is just as well.
Do sample devs realize there are now two plugin protocols for native linux, LV2 and LinVst (including VST3)?


All that marketing, or "not marketing", counts for nothing if you're ignoring a growing chunk of the market.


2 Euros worth,

Alex.


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## thereus (Mar 30, 2018)

Dr Belasco said:


> Wow this thread has really gone off the rails.



Did it start on the rails?


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## blougui (Mar 30, 2018)

It’s a 4x4 of a thread.
Expect quagmire driving, dune descents, ice skating and many, many rock bumping trails.


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## Kony (Mar 30, 2018)

blougui said:


> Expect quagmire


Gigidi


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## EvilDragon (Mar 30, 2018)

alextone said:


> All that marketing, or "not marketing", counts for nothing if you're ignoring a growing chunk of the market.



Minority report. 

Developers go where the money is. Linux was never about money. There you have it.


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## robgb (Mar 30, 2018)

That does it. I'm throwing away my Mark Tremonti guitar. Besides, having to tune it every once in awhile interrupts my workflow.


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## InLight-Tone (Mar 30, 2018)

robgb said:


> That does it. I'm throwing away my Mark Tremonti guitar. Besides, having to tune it every once in awhile interrupts my workflow.


Creed?!?


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## kavinsky (Mar 30, 2018)

InLight-Tone said:


> Creed?!?


yeah
alter bridge and stuff.


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## robgb (Mar 30, 2018)

InLight-Tone said:


> Creed?!?


Hey, it's still a good guitar...


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## InLight-Tone (Mar 30, 2018)

robgb said:


> Hey, it's still a good guitar...


Don't get me wrong I actually loved Creed in their heyday...


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## Erick - BVA (Mar 30, 2018)

I think anyone should be able to criticize anyone else. Pointing out flaws, drawbacks and whatnot of a library. Don't we all benefit from this? I mean, if it's honest and coming from the right place (not spiteful or to simply tear down the competition). Why is everyone coming to the defense of one developer or the other? We have our cliques and our teams that we side with, because, for whatever reason we love a certain developer or developers. It should always be about what is best for the consumer. Critism is almost always best for the consumer. You have your choice to criticize, I have my choice to take that info however I want and use it however I want. So here is my impression from what Daniel James demonstrated on his Stream: 

Spitfire may have fallen over its own ambition in believing the illusion that "bigger and more" absolutely means better. I get the impression that the insanely large number of players creates a "washed" out sound with a lack of clarity and focus. It essentially does seem to turn it into a pad or synthesizer.
So yes, there are more than just the "pad" like sounds. But just judging by what i'm hearing, there doesn't seem to be a lot of other compelling sounds. 

There's no way to demo it myself, and the price doesn't make me want to take a chance on it. 

Huge fan of spitfire, and I have quite a few of their libraries, but I really get what Daniel James is saying and I tend to agree with him.


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## P.N. (Mar 30, 2018)

I normally stay away from this kind of stuff, but...

"Expensive marketing, GUI's and famous names alone do not make for great virtual instruments. At @cinesamples we refuse to do that, we have too much respect for customers."

I won't comment on the use of famous names, but having polished GUIs is also a way to show attention and respect for your customers. It's a way to say "we did the best we can in every possible aspect of the product".
It's not just about looking pretty and moving units, it's about ergonomics and increasing the workflow.

I see some companies take this apporach. "We don't need fancy GUIs! It's the sound that counts!" And it seems that in many cases it reads "We wanted to save some money and not hire a proper designer! Deal with it!".

Just my opinion...


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## prodigalson (Mar 30, 2018)

Of course he’s allowed criticize anyone he wants. But by the same token, we’re also allowed provide our opinion on whether or not doing that on the day of release of what was clearly a major undertaking is in poor taste. IMO, Mike of all people should know what goes into creating a library of that scale.

And no, it’s not about camps (at least not from me). I have just as many products from CS as from SFA and I respect them both as quality developers (and they both have some clunkers too) but if Paul Thomson tweeted the same thing about a cinesamples product on the day of release I’d be just as taken aback and have the same opinion


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## thereus (Mar 30, 2018)

prodigalson said:


> Of course he’s allowed criticize anyone he wants. But by the same token, we’re also allowed provide our opinion on whether or not doing that on the day of release of what was clearly a major undertaking is in poor taste. IMO, Mike of all people should know what goes into creating a library of that scale.
> 
> And no, it’s not about camps (at least not from me). I have just as many products from CS as from SFA and I respect them both as quality developers (and they both have some clunkers too) but if Paul Thomson tweeted the same thing about a cinesamples product on the day of release I’d be just as taken aback and have the same opinion


Yeah, but he wouldn’t.


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## Erick - BVA (Mar 30, 2018)

prodigalson said:


> Of course he’s allowed criticize anyone he wants. But by the same token, we’re also allowed provide our opinion on whether or not doing that on the day of release of what was clearly a major undertaking is in poor taste. IMO, Mike of all people should know what goes into creating a library of that scale.
> 
> And no, it’s not about camps (at least not from me). I have just as many products from CS as from SFA and I respect them both as quality developers (and they both have some clunkers too) but if Paul Thomson tweeted the same thing about a cinesamples product on the day of release I’d be just as taken aback and have the same opinion



I guess I'd rather discuss the merits of what Mike is saying rather than simply dismiss it as "poor" taste. Jame's video corroborates it for me. I have nothing else so far to show me otherwise. He was showing sounds from their legacy albion, and they sounded more full and "hans zimmer" like than the HZS. I think we are creatures of deception, and whether or not anyone is trying to deceive us, marketing in its very nature kind of does that. Showing comparisons and reveiws (when they're honest) can help to kind of tear away this deception (unintetional or not).


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## jamwerks (Mar 30, 2018)

The tweet is probably born of jealousy. Both companies are about the same age, both founded by two composer friends. But one of them today has 40+ employees and the other has probably 4. Nuff said...

And he also insinuates that some devs (SF) don't respect their customers ? No comment


----------



## ctsai89 (Mar 30, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Well, the funny thing is in regards of what sounds better is for me so much connected with who inputs the data. Having said that: I have heard great sounding results both from CS libraries as well from Spitfire and also bad sounding stuff from both of them.
> 
> 
> 
> Yepp I agree here. Though big names are not a freeticket to sell shitty products but they increase the chances a lot even to sell mediocre products pretty well. The past shows. Imagine Musical sampling would have entitled their adventure brass "Alan Silvestri brass essentials"? I am sure they could have charged more and sold double the copies.



exactly. 

We all need to remind ourselves that success isn't just being good at the music but also business aspect of it. 

And that success would include cinesamples to a pretty high degree as well. It's not like they're a 1 man company recording everything himself and programming everything on his own with crappy advertisement and VST interface... they're decent.


----------



## Erick - BVA (Mar 30, 2018)

jamwerks said:


> The tweet is probably born of jealousy. Both companies are about the same age, both founded by two composer friends. But one of them today has 40+ employees and the other has probably 4. Nuff said...
> 
> And he also insinuates that some devs (SF) don't respect their customers ? No comment



I don't think we should assume the motives. Maybe Mike is comfortable with a "4" person team. Are you saying that a bigger company is automatically better or a sign of merit and success? You've unwittenly done a bit of marketing for Spitfire


----------



## N.Caffrey (Mar 30, 2018)

jamwerks said:


> The tweet is probably born of jealousy. Both companies are about the same age, both founded by two composer friends. But one of them today has 40+ employees and the other has probably 4. Nuff said...
> 
> And he also insinuates that some devs (SF) don't respect their customers ? No comment


I respect Cinesamples and own many of their libraries, but I share your point, it kinda feels like a sort of jealousy thing.


----------



## CT (Mar 30, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> It is not popular on this forum to critizise Spitfire products or HZ.



Granted, I have not been here for that long, and haven't been hugely active during that time anyway. But from what I've seen, this isn't really true at all. 

It seems more like there is a group of people who *think* it's true, but they're actually far more vocal and tiresome themselves than the phantoms they are supposedly up against.


----------



## ctsai89 (Mar 30, 2018)

miket said:


> Granted, I have not been here for that long, and haven't been hugely active during that time anyway. But from what I've seen, this isn't really true at all.
> 
> It seems more like there is a group of people who *think* it's true, but they're actually far more vocal and tiresome themselves than the phantoms they are supposedly up against.



I think that the amount of criticisms on it pales in comparison to the amount of criticism VSL receives though. Maybe that's what Alex meant.

But that might be about to change due to the redundancy of string libraries especially when they all only sound just like "Spitfire" or pppp.


----------



## givemenoughrope (Mar 30, 2018)

If developers didn't hype their products then they probably wouldn't make their money back from pros or amateurs and they wouldn't exist. So, when I'm listening to demos and watching walkthroughs I'm just trying to separate the hype/salesmanship from the product. It's a necessary ('evil?') thing. When I can't separate those things or get a straight answer it can be annoying...and so I just wait for more user demos.


----------



## prodigalson (Mar 30, 2018)

Sibelius19 said:


> I guess I'd rather discuss the merits of what Mike is saying rather than simply dismiss it as "poor" taste. Jame's video corroborates it for me. I have nothing else so far to show me otherwise. He was showing sounds from their legacy albion, and they sounded more full and "hans zimmer" like than the HZS. I think we are creatures of deception, and whether or not anyone is trying to deceive us, marketing in its very nature kind of does that. Showing comparisons and reveiws (when they're honest) can help to kind of tear away this deception (unintetional or not).



OK, but personally when assessing the "merits" of what anyone says it's often worthwhile to consider the source and timing and I'd hardly consider Mike an unbiased and objective observer. Of course, Daniel's video is helpful when assessing this library even though I disagree with certain aspects of it but I certainly wouldn't equate it with a tweet from a competing developer a few hours after the library was released.


----------



## Erick - BVA (Mar 30, 2018)

givemenoughrope said:


> If developers didn't hype their products then they probably wouldn't make their money back from pros or amateurs and they wouldn't exist. So, when I'm listening to demos and watching walkthroughs I'm just trying to separate the hype/salesmanship from the product. It's a necessary ('evil?') thing. When I can't separate those things or get a straight answer it can be annoying...and so I just wait for more user demos.



Yes! They need to market and hype. They are obliged to. But then reviewers and such are there to help the consumer decide (at least they should be). Especially when so many of these libraries cannot be demoed or trialed.


----------



## givemenoughrope (Mar 30, 2018)

Right^. They also don’t want someone misrepresenting their product (I’m not saying DJ is doing that).

I was a little annoyed by the hype for LCO (we were buying samples, not a session with the players) but I understand the need to hype. Then they did a thorough walkthrough and I added to cart. Great library.

Ever use Yelp to decide where to eat or Rotten Tomaotes to decide what to watch? I only use them to know if a place is open or a film exists. I can’t safely gauge things by concensus reviews only reviews and recommendations by specific eaters/film nerds/orchestral sample mock-up players(?).

The rub here is figuring out what the product is and can do before the presale is over.


----------



## jacobthestupendous (Mar 30, 2018)

I don't have time to read four previous pages of argument, but I think we can all agree that Mike Patty is tired of the Jaeger folks bragging about Merethe Soltvedt singing in their library.


----------



## LamaRose (Mar 30, 2018)

some folks need some chill and Jiffy Pop





where's Homer, dammit!


----------



## Geoff Grace (Mar 30, 2018)

Michael Patti is taking the wrong approach. This is how you criticize a competitor:



Best,

Geoff


----------



## synthpunk (Mar 30, 2018)

I've been told by someone in the know that there are companies that were in the sample market that made a very good living that no longer make as good of a living because of other companies. Perhaps they relate that to marketing and hype and now have agenda against other companies.

My opinion is the more sample developers we have the better but we also do not need a Walgreens coming into town trying to put all the small pharmacies out of business or the oaks in the forest taking all the sun from the maples either.


----------



## reutunes (Mar 30, 2018)

synthpunk said:


> I've been told by someone in the know that there are companies that were in the sample market that made a very good living that no longer make as good as a living because of other companies. Perhaps they relate that to marketing and hype and now have agenda against other companies.
> 
> My opinion is the more sample developers we have the better but we also do not need a Walgreens coming into town trying to put all the small pharmacies out of business either.


That is very true - I have heard exactly the same thing several times from several developers. There's only so much composer money to go around.


----------



## Geoff Grace (Mar 30, 2018)

Nice pads in this video: 



Best,

Geoff


----------



## givemenoughrope (Mar 30, 2018)

synthpunk said:


> I've been told by someone in the know that there are companies that were in the sample market that made a very good living that no longer make as good of a living because of other companies. Perhaps they relate that to marketing and hype and now have agenda against other companies.
> 
> My opinion is the more sample developers we have the better but we also do not need a Walgreens coming into town trying to put all the small pharmacies out of business or the oaks in the forest taking all the sun from the maples either.



So, who would be the Walgreens in the sample game? NI? Or are you saying there isn’t one?


----------



## Geoff Grace (Mar 30, 2018)

reutunes said:


> There's only so much composer money to go around.


The answer? Pay composers more, of course!

Best,

Geoff


----------



## Guffy (Mar 30, 2018)

More shots fired?
(Obvious which library he has in mind)


----------



## quantum7 (Mar 30, 2018)

reutunes said:


> There's only so much composer money to go around.



And unfortunately that isn’t saying very much in 2018.


----------



## rottoy (Mar 30, 2018)

I must say I'm disappointed that Cinesamples didn't record a mic position that's up the buttocks of the pianist.
Neumann Scat M49?


----------



## RiffWraith (Mar 30, 2018)

rottoy said:


> I must say I'm disappointed that Cinesamples didn't record a mic position that's up the buttocks of the pianist.
> Neumann Scat M49?


----------



## RiffWraith (Mar 30, 2018)

Fugdup said:


> More shots fired?
> (Obvious which library he has in mind)



For the record, the HZ piano is 196 GB. Take that FWIW.


----------



## NoamL (Mar 30, 2018)

reutunes said:


> That is very true - I have heard exactly the same thing several times from several developers. There's only so much composer money to go around.



Also each generation of samples seems to "outcompete" the last by less and less, to the point that many pros are seemingly happy using libraries from the 2010-2013 era of sampling. Junkie XL scored Dark Tower and Tomb Raider using Cinematic Strings 2 and Hollywood Strings during the mockup phase. John Powell still uses the Spitfire BML woodwinds.

There are a lot of "new orchestral lines" like 8dio's Century Series that I have to wonder how commercially successful they are. Even the Cinematic Studio Series to an extent - yes it's very popular, but it's also pretty inexpensive.

The competition in the sample library market doesn't just come from the huge companies churning out 5 libraries a year, it also comes from all past products which remain useful.


----------



## rottoy (Mar 30, 2018)

RiffWraith said:


>


It was just a bit of blunt levity. I'm sorry if you felt put off.
I'm squarely in the Cinesamples camp in this.


----------



## NoamL (Mar 30, 2018)

Geoff Grace said:


> Michael Patti is taking the wrong approach. This is how you criticize a competitor:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




"Advertising, advertising, advertising, designing the next Mac Pro, advertising, advertising..."


----------



## MaxOctane (Mar 30, 2018)

RiffWraith said:


> For the record, the HZ piano is 196 GB. Take that FWIW.



It's actually 211.2GB!

I'm with with Cinesamples on this one. HZ Piano has 15 mics. Who needs all those, and how different can they possibly be? It's just hard to believe it's not sonically equivalent to 6-8 mics + EQ. 

For piano I don't care too much, because there's plenty of other options. But there's a handful of library suites I'd easily buy if I didn't have to allocate another cumbersome drive to it.


----------



## chillbot (Mar 30, 2018)

MaxOctane said:


> It's actually 211.2GB!


Mine is 196GB. Did it get updated or something?

Though that works out to 211.2 billion bytes if that's what you meant.

Either way it's about 160 too many GB for me.


----------



## RiffWraith (Mar 30, 2018)

Yeah - mine is 196 as well.


----------



## blougui (Mar 30, 2018)

Well, it’s the Zimmer way, having so many mics...


----------



## rottoy (Mar 30, 2018)

I like that Mike likes fewer mics.


----------



## MaxOctane (Mar 30, 2018)

rottoy said:


> I like that Mike likes fewer mics.



Mike likes fewer mics, but the few mics Mike likes might strike a spike (a huge hike) in your CPU, right?


----------



## jamwerks (Mar 30, 2018)

Ok for less mic's, but the Cine range doesn't have even one real ambient mic. That's a pity especially since the MGM stage is probably the best sounding of them all.


----------



## Erick - BVA (Mar 30, 2018)

MaxOctane said:


> It's actually 211.2GB!
> 
> I'm with with Cinesamples on this one. HZ Piano has 15 mics. Who needs all those, and how different can they possibly be? It's just hard to believe it's not sonically equivalent to 6-8 mics + EQ.
> 
> For piano I don't care too much, because there's plenty of other options. But there's a handful of library suites I'd easily buy if I didn't have to allocate another cumbersome drive to it.


Does it really have all those mics? I suppose if they're well sampled, the more options the better? But I wonder if there is a lot of redundancy between some of the mics.


----------



## Kyle Preston (Mar 30, 2018)

chillbot said:


> Mine is 196GB. Did it get updated or something?
> 
> Though that works out to 211.2 billion bytes if that's what you meant.
> 
> Either way it's about 160 too many GB for me.



I think it's a Mac/PC thing, the way they organize storage. Mac says this much, PC says that much.


----------



## Guffy (Mar 30, 2018)

NoamL said:


> Also each generation of samples seems to "outcompete" the last by less and less, to the point that many pros are seemingly happy using libraries from the 2010-2013 era of sampling. Junkie XL scored Dark Tower and Tomb Raider using Cinematic Strings 2 and Hollywood Strings during the mockup phase. John Powell still uses the Spitfire BML woodwinds.
> 
> There are a lot of "new orchestral lines" like 8dio's Century Series that I have to wonder how commercially successful they are. Even the Cinematic Studio Series to an extent - yes it's very popular, but it's also pretty inexpensive.
> 
> The competition in the sample library market doesn't just come from the huge companies churning out 5 libraries a year, it also comes from all past products which remain useful.



I think you're right.
And some people trash their CineStrings/Spitfire Strings/Hollywood Strings for Sonic Implants


----------



## axb312 (Mar 30, 2018)

Geoff Grace said:


> Nice pads in this video:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




What was the point of this video? Just proved to me that HZS cannot in fact handle fast notes (Without a shit ton of work, multiple patches, eating up a lot of RAM and wonky panning) or slow notes apparently (since the legato is wonky now). So...pads only?


----------



## lp59burst (Mar 30, 2018)

Dr Belasco said:


> Wow this thread has really gone off the rails.





thereus said:


> Did it start on the rails?


No... I'd say it's right squarely "on the rails? - lately it seems topics that actually _*stay*_ on topic for more that a page are the "off the rails" ones...


----------



## jmvideo (Mar 30, 2018)

It's all about the bottle mics. That's what sold me. All bottle mics all the time.


----------



## BradHoyt (Mar 30, 2018)

Greg said:


> Taking pointless shots at your competitors on twitter doesn't make great virtual instruments either. #thursdaythought


Hmm... Might have a point.


----------



## BradHoyt (Mar 30, 2018)

The divide over HZ Strings is starting to remind of the fan divide over The Last Jedi...


----------



## Lode_Runner (Mar 30, 2018)

Geoff Grace said:


> Michael Patti is taking the wrong approach. This is how you criticize a competitor:
> 
> 
> 
> ...






NoamL said:


> "Advertising, advertising, advertising, designing the next Mac Pro, advertising, advertising..."



The hypocrisy of Apple criticizing Microsoft for the amount of money they spend on advertising, and the irony of doing it in an advertisement.


----------



## tmhuud (Mar 30, 2018)

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fo...ft-another-lesson-in-quality-vs-quantity/amp/

Forbes. Apple vs Microsoft in advertising dollars. You decide.


----------



## Lode_Runner (Mar 30, 2018)

tmhuud said:


> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fo...ft-another-lesson-in-quality-vs-quantity/amp/
> 
> Forbes. Apple vs Microsoft in advertising dollars. You decide.


Fair enough, maybe Apple's ads are just more noticeable/memorable and therefore effective. I stand corrected.


----------



## Yowakeem (Mar 30, 2018)

Apple has stopped sharing how much they spend on ads, after they increased the ad spending by almost 50% So in the last years they have spent more than microsoft. According to the numbers I could find.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/688581/microsoft-corporation-ad-spend/
http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-stopped-disclosing-ad-spend-2016-11?r=US&IR=T&IR=T


----------



## tmhuud (Mar 30, 2018)

By almost 50% of what? If they spent millions and Microsoft spent billions it still doesn't add up. The statistica link wants me to sign up to read the article. What does it say in a nutshell? I'm curious.


----------



## Michel Simons (Mar 30, 2018)

synthpunk said:


> ...or the oaks in the forest taking all the sun from the maples either.



Is this a reference to a certain Rush song?


----------



## EvilDragon (Mar 31, 2018)

tmhuud said:


> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fo...ft-another-lesson-in-quality-vs-quantity/amp/
> 
> Forbes. Apple vs Microsoft in advertising dollars. You decide.



Post from 2012. Hardly relevant today.


----------



## Lode_Runner (Mar 31, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> Post from 2012. Hardly relevant today.


That's true, but the Apple Ad was even older, so I accepted being put in my place.


----------



## Syneast (Mar 31, 2018)

asinclaire said:


> I mean look, I'll just leave this here and let Daniel make his point
> 
> 05:18:00 Timestamp in case it doesn't display properly.
> 
> ...



Yes, it didn't sound as big as Albion, but did he transpose the HZ basses one octave down from the cellos? If he did I didn't notice it, and it sounds a lot like the HZ strings are playing in unison. Albion longs in unison sound like that too. When he played the HZ longs in octaves on the keyboard he found the sound more comparable to the Albion octaves.

Not defending HZ strings. Just pointing out a possibly unfair comparison.


----------



## thereus (Mar 31, 2018)

There’s room for all sorts of devs doing all sorts of different things. Jealous tweeting and grumpiness are not great ways to create interest in your product.



NoamL said:


> Also each generation of samples seems to "outcompete" the last by less and less, to the point that many pros are seemingly happy using libraries from the 2010-2013 era of sampling. Junkie XL scored Dark Tower and Tomb Raider using Cinematic Strings 2 and Hollywood Strings during the mockup phase. John Powell still uses the Spitfire BML woodwinds.
> 
> There are a lot of "new orchestral lines" like 8dio's Century Series that I have to wonder how commercially successful they are. Even the Cinematic Studio Series to an extent - yes it's very popular, but it's also pretty inexpensive.
> 
> The competition in the sample library market doesn't just come from the huge companies churning out 5 libraries a year, it also comes from all past products which remain useful.



Exactly. Once everyone in the market has bought your product, you can’t blame your competitors if your sales go down. What new money there is is going to go towards those making new things.


----------



## Paul Owen (Mar 31, 2018)

I'm wondering why he just doesn't come out and name names to be honest.


----------



## EvilDragon (Mar 31, 2018)

Now that's just pure butthurtedness. It's nothing personal, just business; don't hate the player, hate the game, etc.


----------



## Erick - BVA (Mar 31, 2018)

I think as long as the whole world doesn't devolve into some kind of Orwellian nightmare word-state, then people will continue to make "new" things, and people will continue to buy those new things. I'm cautiously optimistic.


----------



## Heizenhaus (Mar 31, 2018)

Paul Owen said:


> I'm wondering why he just doesn't come out and name names to be honest.


Because it's not necessary. We all know what and whom he references.

P.S. I share EvilDragon's assessment.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr (Mar 31, 2018)

Well to be clear. It is not Spitfires fault at all. They do what they can do best and a part of that is their strong marketing. Not every developer shares the way how they advertize their products and everybody is entitled to express his opinions about that, or? Mike Patti is a very talented composer and cinesamples products are great, also the new release of the CS Piano which I find cool. I don´t see his tweet as so problematic. Remember the advertizing of Eastwest and what they said about their Hollywood choirs? Their marketing was imo a total crap plus they diminished other competitors products beeing mediocre because they can only sing pre-recorded latin phrases. And in the end? Their own products didnt match the expactations and in some cases the demos sounded ridiculously escpecially considering their self boasting marketing around that product. Probably his tweet is also about marketing on the other side. Sure..shooting directly at competitors doesn´t make your own products better. In the end: Don´t fall for any marketing stunts as they are always trying to sell the product, regardless if it is worth or not. It is up to you to make your own mind. If you like HZ Strings, well thats great, go get and buy it.


----------



## jamwerks (Mar 31, 2018)

Paul Owen said:


>


That seems more like coming from a 12 year old looser than a middle-aged professional.

Can you imagine any A-lister wanting to associate themselves with that kind of a company. Don't see myself putting any more money in their pockets!


----------



## Dr Belasco (Mar 31, 2018)

A 'looser'?


----------



## chillbot (Mar 31, 2018)

Paul Owen said:


> I'm wondering why he just doesn't come out and name names to be honest.




Maybe it's a serious announcement.?

It's not actually much different from what spitfire actually does.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr (Mar 31, 2018)

jamwerks said:


> That seems more like coming from a 12 year old looser than a middle-aged professional.
> 
> Can you imagine any A-lister wanting to associate themselves with that kind of a company. Don't see myself putting any more money in their pockets!



ah come on. I don´t find that so bad at all. He is expressing his opinion on others companies marketing. Only because he is the co founder of cs, does that mean he is entitled to shut up his mouth? I mean...you can agree or dissagree, no problem.


----------



## rottoy (Mar 31, 2018)

I'm with @AlexanderSchiborr on this one.
I still think the digs from Mike are harmless enough while still sounding his stance on the matter in a clear way.


----------



## Kyle Preston (Mar 31, 2018)

Maybe he just really hates marketing. Like, in general.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr (Mar 31, 2018)

Kyle Preston said:


> Maybe he just really hates marketing. Like, in general.



Yes, Cinesamples didn´t do that kind of marketing so far I know. They never did that in that way how spitfire does and Spitfire didn´t do that back then as well. They evolved and saw the power of marketing and they did and do it pretty well. Sure out of Mikes Statements reads a bit of: Well, can do sell a product without fancy names and big marketing just because the core of product speaks for it self? I can understand that. Look at Cinematic Studio Strings...these strings came practically out of the blue and were very successful. And they are great. There was no fancy name and no big marketing at all. That is what I like a lot. Product quality speaks and nothing else. Well...spitfire do great products, not to get that wrong..I have bought a lot from them and value their products. But it is this thing with how much of added value a product probably needs.


----------



## Casiquire (Mar 31, 2018)

I even agree with him, but it still doesn't endear me to their products to look so needy.


----------



## chillbot (Mar 31, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> I even agree with him, but it still doesn't endear me to their products to look so needy.



I would actually admire someone for standing up to the spitfire marketing bulldozer. There's no reason he shouldn't, it is a competition anyway.

The problem I have is the first tweet was just too subtle and snide. Looked petty and like a sore loser.

I liked the second tweet better because it was more of a direct shot at spitfire.

What would be good is just to come out and tweet: "Spitfire sux ballz". I could get behind that, mad props.


----------



## givemenoughrope (Mar 31, 2018)

We all know Apple doesn’t serve creatives anymore. They seem to prioritize people like my mom and convincing them that they need to be able to know the ins and outs of OS and iOS to even exist in the modern world. (Genius Bar...full of confused people and no booze in sight...but somehow...”Genius”/$.)

In the same way it seems like some larger sample developers have gotten away from serving just those who produce/write for media for a living and into selling a sort of “HZ scoring kit in a box” thing or chasing a realism in samples that can only be achieved in a very crude, basic way (Evos, waves, Fx, one-shots, dyn patches, etc), trying to satisfy both at once. That requires marketing obviously. If there were more developers who focused on advancing the tools for professionals only and charged more too ...well I guess that’s kind of what VSL does to an extent. Instead we’re seeing the larger developers who need a marketing push to justify large projects and 10,000 boutique operations who produce no frills products. The cost of sample libraries is much lower than 10-15 years ago (it seems), although when you add all of the SF/8dio/Audiobro string libraries up that I’ve plunked down for I could have bought the VSL cube a couple times.

...shrugs shoulders...

At this point I’m most interested in how someone like JXL or even CH use samples to blend with real players. That technique doesn’t get a lot of attention from developers/walkthroughs bc obviously it’s not the best business move to say that. I mean, a developer wouldn’t even suggest that blending with other competing libraries is a good idea (although one of the most known string library developers suggested privately that I do just that to get a bigger sound).


----------



## kitekrazy (Mar 31, 2018)

robgb said:


> That does it. I'm throwing away my Mark Tremonti guitar. Besides, having to tune it every once in awhile interrupts my workflow.



I've seen one of those used Ingwie M. on a wall at Guitar Center.


jamwerks said:


> That seems more like coming from a 12 year old looser than a middle-aged professional.
> 
> Can you imagine any A-lister wanting to associate themselves with that kind of a company. Don't see myself putting any more money in their pockets!



You might be surprised that many people don't care when it comes to buying a product.


----------



## The Darris (Mar 31, 2018)

I just going to leave the words of HZ from another thread here...

"Look, other sample libraries have tried to do “me”. Either by using the musicians I’m closely connected to, or hiring my sample team away from me. The knowledge and their worth came from working on my projects for years - but (and I think it was a short-lived Love affair) it didn’t seem to work out. I didn’t try to persuade my team to stay, I really hoped that this would work out for all of them and make their lifes better...And I didn’t tweet about it, either."

Nuff said.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr (Mar 31, 2018)

The Darris said:


> I just going to leave the words of HZ from another thread here...
> 
> "Look, other sample libraries have tried to do “me”. Either by using the musicians I’m closely connected to, or hiring my sample team away from me. The knowledge and their worth came from working on my projects for years - but (and I think it was a short-lived Love affair) it didn’t seem to work out. I didn’t try to persuade my team to stay, I really hoped that this would work out for all of them and make their lifes better...And I didn’t tweet about it, either."
> 
> Nuff said.



He is such of a fine eloquently speaking gentleman. Well..Mike Patti tweets what he thinks, HZ does express his thoughts here. Thats fine.


----------



## procreative (Mar 31, 2018)

I think ALL developers should learn to develop thicker skins sometimes. Some developers such as Spitfire, 8Dio, East West while no doubt proud of their new products, tend to over hype them.

That's fine, but then it sets them up for the inevitable flak when the reality does not quite match the expectation.

I realise its not easy when your creative output gets criticism or negative feedback, sometimes its unwarranted and other times its a result of people getting swept along into buying something because its getting talked about.

And I certainly dont want to come across as a "rude twat" to quote someone...


----------



## The Darris (Mar 31, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> He is such of a fine eloquently speaking gentleman. Well..Mike Patti tweets what he thinks, HZ does express his thoughts here. Thats fine.


Yeah, I think what happens with these threads is that people build their own conspiracies of characters in this when in fact, those involved tend to share their thoughts publicly in either a lashing out way due to frustration, jealousy, bitterness, or just plain and openly simple. I think what I can read in all of this is that sure, Mike can express his opinions but...it does speak to his character about how he truly feels. 

One could argue that CineSamples never really struck gold the way they did with CineBrass back in the day. Hell, they went radio silent for roughly two years after closing up shop at Sonic Fuel and now they farm out most of their work to freelance people like Will Bedford. I've met both Mikes once, at NAMM, and the experience wasn't very good. Aside from that, I don't know them anymore than those interaction but I will say, since I follow them, that they are passionate about film music and have very particular tastes, albeit pretty old school given today's industry. They have solid clients for sure, who support their business, I for one have bought some of their recent releases like CineHarps (great fucking library) but still, reading his words makes me think he wishes they were at a higher level. 

People, by and large, only lash out like that when they are unhappy and in most cases, jealous of others. You don't need to be a psych major to observe that. At the end of the day, it's a business. Spitfire Audio and others have played the game well and whether or not you like their libraries is irrelevant to a business. CineSamples is the same way. Sure, people may love their libraries but they don't compete in the marketing world to build the buzz needed to be hugely successful. CineBrass was so successful because there hadn't been a major breakthrough in sampling and the sound of sampling like that. After that, the bigger names we know of today started pumping out big orchestral libraries that pushed CineSamples out a bit. What worked for CineBrass didn't necessarily work for CineWinds, Strings, and Percussion (Please, I'm not saying these libraries are bad so no need to defend them). So, I feel for CineSamples in that regards but if they stand by the quality of their libraries then why not be willing to put up just as much into the marketing for it to get the reception it deserves? Big marketing doesn't mean you hate your customers or disrespect them. That only has that effect if that's the way you feel about them. You can respect your customers and still do a major marketing campaign. 

Look, I know a lot of people don't like that thing Spitfire does where they tease the teaser but they want to build hype and it works every time, regardless if you like it or not. When they finally do announce something, they put a lot of time and effort into it. No other developer is releasing the type of content that Spitfire Audio is and their content is pretty remarkable given they are a sample developer. We get insight from Composers, learn different techniques, learn how to use their tools, etc. They've built a "community" of users because they offer more than just a tool that works and let's people write what they want. CineSamples hasn't done that, nor have most developers. 

Again, you don't need to be a genius to draw those conclusions in this industry. Having reviewed libraries for years now which means I've built a professional relationship with a lot of developers, I know their frustrations with this issue first hand. At the end of the day, they only have themselves and their business model to criticize. It's a competitive market and they know it so they should own their own success.

-C


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## NoamL (Mar 31, 2018)

You could say the same of any developer. When 8dio started developing Century Brass in summer 2015 there was no Cinematic Studio Series, no Musical Sampling, no Performance Samples, no NI Symphonic Series, no Bravura Scoring Brass, no Chris Hein Orchestral Brass...

They were developing in an environment where their visible competition was Hollywood Brass, Cinebrass, Spitfire BML, and it was also a reasonable inference that there'd be an upcoming Berlin series brass product with unknown specs. But that's it. Then the product comes out 2.5 years later and they face fierce competition from a half dozen developers they didn't even know would exist.


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## The Darris (Mar 31, 2018)

NoamL said:


> You could say the same of any developer. When 8dio started developing Century Brass in summer 2015 there was no Cinematic Studio Series, no Musical Sampling, no Performance Samples, no NI Symphonic Series, no Bravura Scoring Brass, no Chris Hein Orchestral Brass...
> 
> They were developing in an environment where their visible competition was Hollywood Brass, Cinebrass, Spitfire BML, and it was also a reasonable inference that there'd be an upcoming Berlin series brass product with unknown specs. But that's it. Then the product comes out 2.5 years later and they face fierce competition from a half dozen developers they didn't even know would exist.


I don't mean to sound rude but what is your point? You're basically explaining what simple competition is in an industry like this. My point was never about not knowing what the competition will be in 2 years but simply what it is NOW!! CineSamples has been around long enough and has watched companies like Spitfire Audio grow exponentially whilst they stay relatively the same or even less so now that they don't really have a full time staff like they did. Back to my point, if Mike is lashing out really because he dislikes that other developers are doing better regardless of whether or not their libraries are good, that's on him and CineSamples, nobody else.


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## JEPA (Mar 31, 2018)

oh.. sorry to step in. I wanted to say something about business:

to focus on yourself strength is better than to focus on other's weakness, then if so you are showing your own weakness as comparing your "strength" to their weakness, in the meantime your are steering the audience to your competition instead of on yourself or on your product. 

I like the zen way. Go your way in peace, straight forward. Let the others talk about you, don't talk about the others...


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## VinRice (Mar 31, 2018)

Business 101 - don't diss your competitors (in public).


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## bigcat1969 (Mar 31, 2018)

I would argue that in an ever more competitive business like this with what seems like dwindling margins, knowing your competition along with knowing your own strengths and weakness and what viable niche your products can fill are all vital to success.

Spitfire to me was clever by creating something that only they could create based on vast resources (compared to other devs) and having Hans. Naturally others will be jealous. Spitfire can afford a private jet while others are going across the Atlantic steerage and trying to convince the world they are flying. Wow terrible metaphor or something.


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## Geoff Grace (Mar 31, 2018)

VinRice said:


> Business 101 - don't diss your competitors (in public).


Or if you do, try it with a light-hearted touch and a sense of humor. That's why I posted the "I'm a Mac. I'm a PC." ad campaign example earlier. Even with that soft touch though, it caused its share of controversy; but in the end, I'd say it did Apple more good than bad.

Best,

Geoff


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## muk (Mar 31, 2018)

Maybe Mike's tweets themselves are just part of a marketing stunt. Seems to be working rather well too, so far.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 31, 2018)

But... they'd "never do that to their customers"!


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## Grilled Cheese (Mar 31, 2018)

VinRice said:


> Business 101 - don't diss your competitors (in public).


That was my first thought too. It’s far more likely to hurt your sales than help.

Apple got away with it for 2 reasons. 1. They used humour and 2. They felt their products were genuinely superior so they wanted to go head to head with PCs. This was an effective marketing technique for them but it would never have worked in a tweet.

Mike’s free to tweet whatever he wants, but purely from a business perspective what he wrote will probably do more harm than good.


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## Geoff Grace (Mar 31, 2018)

The Darris said:


> When they finally do announce something, they put a lot of time and effort into it. No other developer is releasing the type of content that Spitfire Audio is and their content is pretty remarkable given they are a sample developer. We get insight from Composers, learn different techniques, learn how to use their tools, etc. They've built a "community" of users because they offer more than just a tool that works and let's people write what they want. CineSamples hasn't done that, nor have most developers.


Nor has _any_ other developer that I know of. And let's not forget the vlog @christianhenson puts out either—both entertaining and educational. For all of the complaints I read about Spitfire's products being overpriced, they release equally valuable content for free in the form of YouTube videos, as you described above. And their freebie samples are generally worthwhile as well.

As alienating as their hype is to some, their outreach into our community builds an equal or greater loyalty in others. Once other developers get that and up their game on support, they'll become more competitive.

Best,

Geoff


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## 667 (Mar 31, 2018)

The Darris said:


> "Look, other sample libraries have tried to do “me”. Either by using the musicians I’m closely connected to, or hiring my sample team away from me. The knowledge and their worth came from working on my projects for years - but (and I think it was a short-lived Love affair) it didn’t seem to work out. I didn’t try to persuade my team to stay, I really hoped that this would work out for all of them and make their lifes better...And I didn’t tweet about it, either."


What is this in reference to? What product was released, who got hired away, etc.?


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## Arbee (Mar 31, 2018)

Here's a concept - buy stuff you truly like and ignore the bullshit, _everyone's_ bullshit - developers, fanboys, competitors, sponsored commentators alike. I take sample libraries the same way I do people, cars and everything else - the way_ I _find them, not the way they're advertised and hyped to me. You need more than bullshit and social media marketing to get your hands on _my_ wallet


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## patrick76 (Mar 31, 2018)

chrispire said:


> That was my first thought too. It’s far more likely to hurt your sales than help.
> 
> Apple got away with it for 2 reasons. 1. They used humour and 2. They felt their products were genuinely superior so they wanted to go head to head with PCs. This was an effective marketing technique for them but it would never have worked in a tweet.
> 
> Mike’s free to tweet whatever he wants, but purely from a business perspective what he wrote will probably do more harm than good.



I don't really know if that's true. Trump dissed his competitors continuously during the 2016 election and it didn't hurt him at all. He still does it on an almost daily basis on twitter and it seems to have very little adverse effect for him. It would be ideal if that weren't true, but it seems that this is the situation. 

Not sure how this kind of tactic translates to the sample library world, but maybe some new start up will take his lead and come up with insulting nicknames for all the primary sample library companies..... I can think of a few nicknames but I don't want to start a flame war and get banned. Maybe I can be the future president of one of the big sample libraries? Time will tell.


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## The Darris (Mar 31, 2018)

667 said:


> What is this in reference to? What product was released, who got hired away, etc.?


CineSamples hired HZ's sample team a few years back. That is what he's referencing there and as far as musicians he's closely connected with, I can't imagine anyone other than Tina Guo, given the extensive work and collaborations she's done with HZ in the past. He didn't reference anything about a particular product but it's very clear who he's talking about here.


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## madfloyd (Mar 31, 2018)

How many of you actually own Cinesamples libraries?

I don’t own any and haven’t even heard them, but I own half of Spitfire, Orchestral Tools, VSL, East West and Cinema Studio libraries.


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## Grilled Cheese (Mar 31, 2018)

patrick76 said:


> Not sure how this kind of tactic translates to the sample library world...


You guessed it. Politics is a different kettle of piranha. It’s just a bad idea for a reputable business (which presumably Cinesample is) to criticise another reputable business publicly. You end up sounding self-righteous or insecure, or just plain unkind - none of which is likely to result in better sales or improved customer loyalty etc. From a business perspective it’s not worth the risk 99% of the time.


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## prodigalson (Mar 31, 2018)

madfloyd said:


> How many of you actually own Cinesamples libraries?
> 
> I don’t own any and haven’t even heard them, but I own half of Spitfire, Orchestral Tools, VSL, East West and Cinema Studio libraries.



I'd wager many here own several of their libraries and many major composers have them in their templates, especially CineBrass. They have some other really great ones too. Piano in Blue is great. CineHarps is excellent, the Tina Guo library is gorgeous. 

You maybe haven't heard of them because they stopped posting here quite a while ago. And stopped paying for advertising here. They do have a thread right now for the CinePiano which looks nice.


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## Geoff Grace (Mar 31, 2018)

chrispire said:


> Politics is a different kettle of piranha.


Completely. Just about every candidate "goes negative." It's only a matter of how long to wait and how negative to go. The risky choice there is to _not_ go negative.

Best,

Geoff


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## Erick - BVA (Mar 31, 2018)

muk said:


> Maybe Mike's tweets themselves are just part of a marketing stunt. Seems to be working rather well too, so far.


I was thinking the same thing


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## Erick - BVA (Mar 31, 2018)

I have one more thing to say about this and then I'm done. To preface, I do have a degree in psychology, and do have experience working in the field. So my comments are related somewhat to psychology. I may be full of crap. That's for you to decide 
----------------------
I actually do think that marketing using big names does distract from people's ability to be objective about the true quality and relevance of the work. We are so much more unfluanced by group-think and the opinions of others than we really care to admit I believe. There have been countless studies on this. And so the more prominant the thinker (Hans Zimmer for instance) the more influence and weight there is. So I think it is indeed the best practice to let the work speak for itself. Yes, you believe your work is great, it may very well be great, but let the actual product itself do the marketing. There does seem to be an overall vaneer of mystisicm and intrigue permeating the entire Spitfire brand. It's very alluring...it's enticing. I admit, I love the style and the overall feel of it. But I have also become more and more aware that it's part of marketing as well, and meant to provoke an emotional reaction and appeal (which is the strongest marketing approach). It may contribute to some altered perception that some things are better than they really are.
Please don't get me wrong, they may very well be as good as they seem. But the very act of creating such a dense, atmospheric image and persona is that it unadvertanly clouds the objective experience. Your site, your advertising, and the markeing therein has almost become an art form unto itself.
Yes, there are other company who do this, but I am starting to respect the more simply laid out sites which do have a more practical approach to their layout, which seem geared more towards function and purpose.
And.....it's not necessarily that it's even a bad thing to develop almost an extra-ego. It's just something to be aware of. Don't let artwork, enticing teaser vids, and intrigue cloud your ability to think objectively about how good something actually is, or whether you actually even need it. It's like background music in a bad film. It can actually make the movie halfway decent. Cut out that background music, and you realize that the movie is not so great. And once you've purchased something for $700 which you don't really own (since you just have the license), if it really isn't as great as it's hyped to be, you're going to have a hard time consciously admitting that to yourself. Could you blame yourself? Wouldn't it be incredibly sad to admit you just wasted $700? The human psyche is very powerful and can play tricks on you. Be careful and be diligent. I'm not saying HZS fits this description. But it's certainly a prime candidate for it. My simple opinion is that marketing should be simple and straightforward, and feature the product itself, not the names and faces behind it.
Alright, I think I've said everything I care to on this.


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## Grilled Cheese (Mar 31, 2018)

Sibelius19 said:


> There does seem to be an overall vaneer of mystisicm and intrigue permeating the entire Spitfire site. It's very alluring...it's enticing. I admit, I love the style and the overall feel of it.


I love it too and I don’t mind at all when a company presents themselves in a very atmospheric way. Yes it’s marketing but it’s also part of the fun.

I take your point though and it’s good advice for any kind of purchase. Some people might be swayed by marketing mystique and make purchases they regret. Can’t say it’s ever happened to me. For the purpose of objectivity there are loads of music previews, demo videos and user forums to explore products before buying.



> My simple opinion is that marketing should be simple and straightforward, and feature the product itself, not the names and faces behind it.


Awww, vanilla is nice but where’s the fun in that? I don’t need simplicity, but I do expect honesty, which brings me to a question...

Does anyone here ever feel that they have been conned or misled by the marketing of any sample library developers?

Ooh did I just kick the hornet’s nest with that question?


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## chillbot (Mar 31, 2018)

chrispire said:


> Does anyone here ever feel that they have been conned or misled by the marketing of any sample library developers?



Yes, often. Any and every time "game changing" or "ground breaking" is used and you aren't Spectrasonics giving me a Stylus or an Omnisphere. Stop the lies.


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## kitekrazy (Apr 1, 2018)

Sibelius19 said:


> I actually do think that marketing using big names does distract from people's ability to be objective about the true quality and relevance of the work.



I don't know why but amateurs seem to have insecurity issues when there are no well known artists using the same DAW,, synth, whatever. I see it more with DAWs.
I think when someone buys something like an eq or compressor that's over $400 (software), they will tell you it's great despite their other 72 compressors or eqs work as well and the listener with no DAW knowledge would have the slightest clue. There is a different reality when you do this as a hobby.


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## kitekrazy (Apr 1, 2018)

chillbot said:


> Yes, often. Any and every time "game changing" or "ground breaking" is used and you aren't Spectrasonics giving me a Stylus or an Omnisphere. Stop the lies.






chrispire said:


> I love it too and I don’t mind at all when a company presents themselves in a very atmospheric way. Yes it’s marketing but it’s also part of the fun.
> 
> I take your point though and it’s good advice for any kind of purchase. Some people might be swayed by marketing mystique and make purchases they regret. Can’t say it’s ever happened to me. For the purpose of objectivity there are loads of music previews, demo videos and user forums to explore products before buying.
> 
> ...




I'm still a fan of functioning demos. I don't want to hear I want to try it.


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## SyMTiK (Apr 1, 2018)

kitekrazy said:


> I don't know why but amateurs seem to have insecurity issues when there are no well known artists using the same DAW,, synth, whatever. I see it more with DAWs.



I dont think theres anything wrong with people being inspired by these products and the thought of having the same tools that their favorite composer/producer has if that inspires them thats great, but I think its a dangerous money pit for amateurs because a lot of inexperienced producers can end up spending huge amounts of money on too much equipment too early on before they even know how to really use it simply because they feel the tools alone are going to make them better. 

I think there’s definitely a balance and certain things where you do in fact need a certain tool to atleast begin learning to do a certain artform - theres just no way you can possibly learn to make a convincing orchestral cue with garagebands stock sound set. Sure someone very experienced in mock up work could probably find a way to make it sound half way decent, but it is worthwhile for someone wishing to learn to get atleast a good set of starting tools to work with that are professional.

Im sure EWQL has sold many products to amateurs who were drawn to the fact 2SFH is attached to the EWQL brand. And I’m sure many more may have been discouraged by the fact they didn’t instantly sound like 2SFH out of the box  but I don’t necessarily think this is the fault of the company or the huge name artists attached to it, and more so the preconceived ideas one has to what the product will sound like, and the belief that the product will instantly make your music sound 10000x better because *big name artist xyz* uses it

So, in conclusion, I have to say I’m extremely disappointed I’ve had HZ Strings for 4 whole days now and Chris Nolan still hasn’t invited me to compose for his next film. Damn false advertising!


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## VinRice (Apr 1, 2018)

SyMTiK said:


> So, in conclusion, I have to say I’m extremely disappointed I’ve had HZ Strings for 4 whole days now and Chris Nolan still hasn’t invited me to compose for his next film. Damn false advertising!



I know, right? WTF!


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## ka00 (Apr 1, 2018)

SyMTiK said:


> I think its a dangerous money pit for amateurs because a lot of inexperienced producers can end up spending huge amounts of money on too much equipment too early on before they even know how to really use it simply because they feel the tools alone are going to make them better.



This is a good point. I'm sure most people realize this is marketing hyperbole, but let's not take that for granted. The music industry -- like most other careers in the entertainment business -- feeds on dreamers who will do or spend anything in pursuit of a chance to make a living in their chosen field.

This banner in particular always bugged me (I'm sure we know what it's from). You could say no one would take it literally, but it feeds into the dream of the dreamer that pays the bills of the sample making industry. Too often a new tool is presented as _the_ missing ingredient in achieving a lifelong goal:


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## SyMTiK (Apr 1, 2018)

ka00 said:


> This is a good point. I'm sure most people realize this is marketing hyperbole, but let's not take that for granted. The music industry -- like most other careers in the entertainment business -- feeds on dreamers who will do or spend anything in pursuit of a chance to make a living in their chosen field.



I see this a lot studying here at Berklee too. Dont get me wrong I love Berklee, but I have always looked at Berklee as being a tool that can supply a quality well rounded modern music education, and is a place where I can develop connections with other musicians and members of the entertainment industry that I otherwise wouldn’t be able to (as easily) living in the smallest state in the US, in the middle of corn fields. Never have I had the expectation that Berklee alone will be enough to get me a career in music. It simply is a tool that can be used to help prepare you for that if used right. Ultimately it is the students own individual experience and utilization of Berklees tools that helps them succeed.

Sadly, Berklee tends to market themselves as the magic key to the industry, and it has led to classes full of starry eyed hopefuls who believe that they are the best, because they are at Berklee, and will have a career literally handed to them from Hollywood because of that. 4 years later, these students finally crawl out into the real world that they have avoided for those 4 years, and realize they didnt make any worthwhile connections at Berklee, they didnt take advantage of things like internship opportunities, they didnt go the extra distance to stand out amongst the crowd, and they end up left behind while they watch the few classmates who were always striving to go the extra mile succeed because they put in the work to build a career.

Sadly, trying to make kids believe theyll actually make it just by going to Berklee is probably the only way to convince most of these kids to dish out the price it costs to attend (same with all private universities). Just an unfortunate part of the business, and its why kids should try and always be realistic with themselves.

As for me, I guess I’m just a crazy kid with a big dream, who would rather spend my life chasing a dream than settling for a “normal” life.

Its what makes life exciting!


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## chillbot (Apr 1, 2018)

SyMTiK said:


> Sadly, Berklee tends to market themselves as the magic key to the industry, and it has led to classes full of starry eyed hopefuls who believe that they are the best, because they are at Berklee, and will have a career literally handed to them from Hollywood because of that.


My experience was similar but different... I think we had around 2,000 freshmen in my class and something ridiculous like 200 seniors (don't quote me on that). Oh the dropout rate! Back then, kind of after the jazz era but before the hollywood era, it was a bunch of pot-smoking guitar players that wanted to be rock stars, and as soon as they found out they had to actually learn theory and ear training and scales they were out of there...

Sorry for the off-topic. As you were.


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## cc64 (Apr 1, 2018)

Geoff Grace said:


> Nor has _any_ other developer that I know of. And let's not forget the vlog @christianhenson puts out either—both entertaining and educational. For all of the complaints I read about Spitfire's products being overpriced, they release equally valuable content for free in the form of YouTube videos, as you described above. And their freebie samples are generally worthwhile as well.
> 
> As alienating as their hype is to some, their outreach into our community builds an equal or greater loyalty in others. Once other developers get that and up their game on support, they'll become more competitive.
> 
> ...



Very true!

Ironic that what sold me to Cinesamples a few years back was that long before SFA, Mike Patti posted Youtube vids that where super generous and educational where he talked about mock-up and film composing techniques.

Best,

Claude


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## ctsai89 (Apr 1, 2018)

chillbot said:


> My experience was similar but different... I think we had around 2,000 freshmen in my class and something ridiculous like 200 seniors (don't quote me on that). Oh the dropout rate! Back then, kind of after the jazz era but before the hollywood era, it was a bunch of pot-smoking guitar players that wanted to be rock stars, and as soon as they found out they had to actually learn theory and ear training and scales they were out of there...
> 
> Sorry for the off-topic. As you were.



Yet the engineering and accounting majors always said something about their majors being the toughest and highest dropout numbers


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## halfwalk (Apr 1, 2018)

Hmm... a lengthy thread about Cinesamples at the top of the forum? I'd say the tweets were successful.


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## SillyMidOn (Apr 1, 2018)

Sibelius19 said:


> I have one more thing to say about this and then I'm done. To preface, I do have a degree in psychology, and do have experience working in the field. So my comments are related somewhat to psychology. I may be full of crap. That's for you to decide
> ----------------------
> I actually do think that marketing using big names does distract from people's ability to be objective about the true quality and relevance of the work. We are so much more unfluanced by group-think and the opinions of others than we really care to admit I believe. There have been countless studies on this. And so the more prominant the thinker (Hans Zimmer for instance) the more influence and weight there is. So I think it is indeed the best practice to let the work speak for itself. Yes, you believe your work is great, it may very well be great, but let the actual product itself do the marketing. There does seem to be an overall vaneer of mystisicm and intrigue permeating the entire Spitfire brand. It's very alluring...it's enticing. I admit, I love the style and the overall feel of it. But I have also become more and more aware that it's part of marketing as well, and meant to provoke an emotional reaction and appeal (which is the strongest marketing approach). It may contribute to some altered perception that some things are better than they really are.
> Please don't get me wrong, they may very well be as good as they seem. But the very act of creating such a dense, atmospheric image and persona is that it unadvertanly clouds the objective experience. Your site, your advertising, and the markeing therein has almost become an art form unto itself.
> ...


Excellent post!


---


and cinesamples clearly have a sense of humour about all of this as their recent email for

"Cinestrings Pro - the wait is finally over"

takes you to this page:

https://cinesamples.com/product/cineaprilfools


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## thereus (Apr 1, 2018)

All of that having been said, I'm not even slightly sold on HZS, despite it having the largest marketing hullabaloo of the year. I am by no means immune to marketing campaigns but something about this example hits a wrong note for me. Trying to hard, methinks.


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## kimarnesen (Apr 1, 2018)

Sibelius19 said:


> I have one more thing to say about this and then I'm done. To preface, I do have a degree in psychology, and do have experience working in the field. So my comments are related somewhat to psychology. I may be full of crap. That's for you to decide
> ----------------------
> I actually do think that marketing using big names does distract from people's ability to be objective about the true quality and relevance of the work. We are so much more unfluanced by group-think and the opinions of others than we really care to admit I believe. There have been countless studies on this. And so the more prominant the thinker (Hans Zimmer for instance) the more influence and weight there is. So I think it is indeed the best practice to let the work speak for itself. Yes, you believe your work is great, it may very well be great, but let the actual product itself do the marketing. There does seem to be an overall vaneer of mystisicm and intrigue permeating the entire Spitfire brand. It's very alluring...it's enticing. I admit, I love the style and the overall feel of it. But I have also become more and more aware that it's part of marketing as well, and meant to provoke an emotional reaction and appeal (which is the strongest marketing approach). It may contribute to some altered perception that some things are better than they really are.
> Please don't get me wrong, they may very well be as good as they seem. But the very act of creating such a dense, atmospheric image and persona is that it unadvertanly clouds the objective experience. Your site, your advertising, and the markeing therein has almost become an art form unto itself.
> ...



You are absolutely right! I love the book "Irrationality" by Stuart Sutherland, about irrational beliefs and behaviors, and where he talks about how hard it is to realize you did a mistake if you spent a lot of time or money on something.

I can't remember if he mentions this, but this also makes me think about how Spitfire talks about having created a community. And I wonder, is it really a community, or is it the customers getting the _feeling_ of a community by the marketing, vlogs, live shows etcetera. If I haven't missed something essential, this "community" is nothing more than communication between a company and its customers. But the feeling of a community makes you feel it's almost like a family. And don't you support your friends and family? Perhaps even with some cash?  Not saying Spitfire or others are cynical at all, as they are indeed running a commercial company.


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## Jay Panikkar (Apr 1, 2018)

Fake beef by Mike Patti as a marketing ploy.


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## Dear Villain (Apr 1, 2018)

kimarnesen said:


> 7But the feeling of a community makes you feel it's almost like a family. And don't you support your friends and family? Perhaps even with some cash?  7



You'd be surprised at how many "famous people" have recounted stories that family and friends were the last to support them, either on their way to the top, or when they actually made it. Although, that never stopped the family/friends for asking the "star" for cash at that point


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## ctsai89 (Apr 1, 2018)

halfwalk said:


> Hmm... a lengthy thread about Cinesamples at the top of the forum? I'd say the tweets were successful.



Trump is the most successful president by your definition then


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## rottoy (Apr 1, 2018)

ctsai89 said:


> Trump is the most successful president by your definition then


He has the best words, after all.


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## ctsai89 (Apr 1, 2018)

rottoy said:


> He has the best words, after all.



Tremendously agree on a yuge scale


----------



## Dear Villain (Apr 1, 2018)

CineSamples said:


> Oh my. Just saw this thread! Two points to address. I made a quick video, possibly better than a post! Hope you can watch and respond. -Mike Patti




Wow, I don't know anything about this guy or his company, but he really comes across as a little too "cute, slick, disingenuous" to me. It feels like he's mocking people for blowing things out of proportion and/or reading between the lines of his original tweet, while profusely apologizing for the tweet (as well as reinforcing that he stands behind it...which I don't have a problem with)

Anyway, he's got a career in politics if he tires of music!


----------



## rottoy (Apr 1, 2018)

Dear Villain said:


> Wow, I don't know anything about this guy or his company, but he really comes across as a little too "cute, slick, disingenuous" to me. It feels like he's mocking people for blowing things out of proportion and/or reading between the lines of his original tweet, while profusely apologizing for the tweet (as well as reinforcing that he stands behind it...which I don't have a problem with)
> 
> Anyway, he's got a career in politics if he tires of music!


And off we go again on the Carousel of Inferences!


----------



## thereus (Apr 1, 2018)

I didn’t mean any of the things I said that I completely stand behind and I apologise profusely if anyone was offended by the insults that were completely meant and it was a complete coincidence that we took the mickey out of a competitor’s product on purpose by accident. Reputation is everything so don’t hate me.

Wow. How did I comment on the video before it was posted? Prescient or what?


----------



## prodigalson (Apr 1, 2018)

wait, I missed it! the video is already taken down.


----------



## Cinesamples (Apr 1, 2018)




----------



## Jay Panikkar (Apr 1, 2018)

CineSamples said:


> Oh my. Just saw this thread! Two points to address. I made a quick video, possibly better than a post! Hope you can watch and respond. -Mike Patti



Regardless of whether your tweet was random, genuine or a marketing ploy, you shouldn't need to apologize. _And you shouldn't have apologized._ Big mistake!

There'll always be imbeciles who'll be offended by anything and everything. If you stop to apologize to imbeciles, you won't have the time and energy for much else.


----------



## Daniel James (Apr 1, 2018)

thereus said:


> I didn’t mean any of the things I said that I completely stand behind and I apologise profusely if anyone was offended by the insults that were completely meant and it was a complete coincidence that we took the mickey out of a competitor’s product on purpose by accident. Reputation is everything so don’t hate me.



He didn't say he didn't mean what he said. He means what he said and he stands behind it but it wasn't aimed specifically at any particular company or product. He then proceeds to state that philosophy is based on his own companies experience. - (For the sake of accuracy)

A lot of conversations in the sample world these days revolve around marketing, and some of the more recent stunts and techniques being used by some companies. I think the tweet is factually accurate, those things alone don't equal a great product. 

Read into what he said as you will, but lets not misrepresent what he actually said.

-DJ


----------



## rottoy (Apr 1, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> He didn't say he didn't mean what he said. He means what he said and he stands behind it but it wasn't aimed specifically at any particular company or product. He then proceeds to state that philosophy is based on his own companies experience. - (For the sake of accuracy)
> 
> A lot of conversations in the sample world these days revolve around marketing, and some of the more recent stunts and techniques being used by some companies. I think the tweet is factually accurate, those things alone don't equal a great product.
> 
> ...


This, a thousand times.

I think I saw an outline of the Spitfire Audio logo in my toast the other day, then Mike Patti came over and spat on my toast! 
Then I saw, it was just a normal piece of toast and he just happens to disagree with toast in general.


----------



## halfwalk (Apr 1, 2018)

ctsai89 said:


> Trump is the most successful president by your definition then



Oh jeez, Trump is like Godwin's Law 2.0


----------



## muziksculp (Apr 1, 2018)

The only exciting part of what he said in the video for me, is that we will eventually see *CineStrings Pro* one of these days .

Other than that, this discussion about marketing, I feel better be left to each company to choose how best they want to market their products. There are always consequences to the way a company markets their products, which will happen whether they like it or not.


----------



## thereus (Apr 1, 2018)

Jay Panikkar said:


> Regardless of whether your tweet was random, genuine or a marketing ploy, you shouldn't need to apologize. _And you shouldn't have apologized._ Big mistake!
> 
> There'll always be imbeciles who'll be offended by anything and everything. If you stop to apologize to imbeciles, you won't have the time and energy for much else.



He should apologise for apologising immediately.


----------



## thereus (Apr 1, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> He didn't say he didn't mean what he said. He means what he said and he stands behind it but it wasn't aimed specifically at any particular company or product. He then proceeds to state that philosophy is based on his own companies experience. - (For the sake of accuracy)
> 
> A lot of conversations in the sample world these days revolve around marketing, and some of the more recent stunts and techniques being used by some companies. I think the tweet is factually accurate, those things alone don't equal a great product.
> 
> ...



DJ. Always so serious. I was just having a little fun with the absurdity of all of this.


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 1, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> He didn't say he didn't mean what he said. He means what he said and he stands behind it but it wasn't aimed specifically at any particular company or product. He then proceeds to state that philosophy is based on his own companies experience. - (For the sake of accuracy)
> 
> A lot of conversations in the sample world these days revolve around marketing, and some of the more recent stunts and techniques being used by some companies. I think the tweet is factually accurate, those things alone don't equal a great product.
> 
> ...


Let's say all future buyers of any sample libraries are required to sign up for this forum and read before they buy, by the law. Would you say marketing would still matter as much?


----------



## will_m (Apr 1, 2018)

It's interesting that he states in the video that the tweet wasn't aimed at anyone specifically, seems like a remarkable coincidence if true. Also odd that he has doesn't use other libraries, I don't know of a single composer that uses just one brand of sample library. Even if you don't use them surely having a working knowledge of another developers products would be beneficial.


----------



## NoamL (Apr 1, 2018)

thereus said:


> He should apologise for apologising immediately.


----------



## rottoy (Apr 1, 2018)

will_m said:


> Also odd that he has doesn't use other libraries, I don't know of a single composer that uses just one brand of sample library. Even if you don't use them surely having a working knowledge of another developers products would be beneficial.


He could be using a slew of bespoke libraries apart from the Cinesamples commercial line that cover all his needs.


----------



## will_m (Apr 1, 2018)

rottoy said:


> He could be using a slew of bespoke libraries apart from the Cinesamples commercial line that cover all his needs.



Sure, he probably has access to some pretty cool stuff but even Troels at 8Dio has said he uses other libraries. There are just so many good libraries out there that not to use any of them seems a shame. I'm not having a go, just thought it was odd.


----------



## Daniel James (Apr 1, 2018)

will_m said:


> It's interesting that he states in the video that the tweet wasn't aimed at anyone specifically, seems like a remarkable coincidence if true. Also odd that he has doesn't use other libraries, I don't know of a single composer that uses just one brand of sample library. Even if you don't use them surely having a working knowledge of another developers products would be beneficial.



One can make a generic statement inspired by a current surge of talk on a particular subject without it being a targeted attack.

It just so happens there is a shit load of talk about marketing and the poor practise of it in some regards going on in our community currently. For example some companies are putting focus on how many gigabytes there libraries take up as a positive selling point... You can make a generic statement about that subject in relation to your own stance on the subject without it being an ATTACK on someone else.

Usually philosophical musings don't come out of the blue randomly they are brought to life by the environment of now. So just because the time a statement is made co-insides with a specific discussion doesn't mean that its a pointed attack at it directly but instead at the subject matter behind it. Which should always be fair game in public discourse.

-DJ


----------



## will_m (Apr 1, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> One can make a generic statement inspired by a current surge of talk on a particular subject without it being a targeted attack.
> 
> It just so happens there is a shit load of talk about marketing and the poor practise of it in some regards going on in our community currently. For example some companies are putting focus on how many gigabytes there libraries take up as a positive selling point... You can make a generic statement about that subject in relation to your own stance on the subject without it being an ATTACK on someone else.
> 
> ...



I don't believe I said it was an attack, he makes a good point that I don't think many would disagree with. However to say the tweet wasn't in any way directed at the HZS release I just don't buy it. It went up within 48 hours of release and he followed it up with a tweet about the marketing practice of endless teasers and announcements, something Spitfire are criticized for.

To be honest I had little interest in any of it until he put out a video addressed to this forum in which (to me at least) several statements didn't ring true.


----------



## Daniel James (Apr 1, 2018)

will_m said:


> I don't believe I said it was an attack, he makes a good point that I don't think many would disagree with. However to say the tweet wasn't in any way directed at the HZS release I just don't buy it. It went up within 48 hours of release and he followed it up with a tweet about the marketing practice of endless teasers and announcements, something Spitfire are criticized for.
> 
> To be honest I had little interest in any of it until he put out a video addressed to this forum in which (to me at least) several statements didn't ring true.



Teasers of trailers of new products are a plague in all areas of entertainment. As I said, certain environments and situations can inspire a tweet but it still doesn't mean its a directed attack. It only seems that way to anyone on VI control following the current HZ threads. You could read Mike's tweets having not seen the HZ Strings drama and still agree with them. Meaning they are a subject based tweet, and subjects such as over marketing and teasing teasers of trailers are in my opinion open for discussion. If a conversation about hybrid libraries being shit came out just as I was about to launch mine of course I would feel it was aimed at me, but if its a problem with the general situation and not me specifically I am 100% ok with that being posted and having that conversation. Had Mike posted "Spitfire suck" I would agree that its out of order, but his tweet was on a subject which while it may be dominated by Spitfire currently, its not exclusive to them.

Like I said you can read into it however you want, but alongside the explanation video I am willing to accept he is discussing the subject and no one directly. Again musing like this are always inspired by current events. Like we are currently having discussions in the world about gun control, the recent school shooting was the catalyst for it, but not every debate is directly about it.

-DJ


----------



## chillbot (Apr 1, 2018)

chillbot said:


> come out and tweet: "Spitfire sux ballz"





Daniel James said:


> Had Mike posted "Spitfire suck"



I thought my version was more eloquent. Just saying.


----------



## Daniel James (Apr 1, 2018)

chillbot said:


> I thought my version was more eloquent. Just saying.


Tomato Tomato

-DJ


----------



## Mike Fox (Apr 1, 2018)

At face value, I agree 100% with the tweet, but I gotta ask, what prompted the tweet to begin with?


----------



## Replicant (Apr 1, 2018)

I've said this elsewhere, but it's worth saying in this thread, I think: This is a learning opportunity for consumers.

I hate that I feel "vindicated" in any way about this, but I've long maintained that a lot of sample libraries are indeed over-hyped and overpriced and I've usually been met with fierce opposition to that opinion.

Now look where we are.

_That being said_, though I don't own it, and have no intention to ever own it, I will actually defend HZS on one level. 

They had demos and walkthroughs and stuff for a whole month — at least — before this thing came out. It did not impress me then. It really is like a lot of people didn't pay any attention to those videos and audio samples and just couldn't wait to shell out the dough for a 800 dollar string library that isn't offering anything substantially different or better than something like CSS, which is widely-acclaimed, and half the price. Then, when it didn't fit this imagined idea of what the library would be like based on a name, they're mad.

As far as I have seen, from any of the complaints thrown at it, these were all apparent in the demonstrations from a month ago, but you still bought it. _The product works as advertised._

_*Vote with your wallets, people*. _They offer an articulation list, sound demos naked and dressed, video demos, etc. If you don't find that impressive and worth the price of admission; *DON'T PAY IT* and then complain because it sucks. 

No string library is worth 799 USD, which for me, is like 500 CAD short to buy nearly all of Cinesamples "Core" products, which for the record, I enjoy immensely. 

But you know what? Spitfire can charge whatever they want; if people never buy it, they'll lower the price or make no sales. I know it's trendy to shit on capitalism these days, but trust me, the free market is a pretty great thing if you actually utilize it.


----------



## Kony (Apr 1, 2018)

Replicant said:


> _The product works as advertised_


Er, no it doesn't actually - eg legato, and the fact that sections are missing articulations, eg left side compared to right side sections not sharing all artics.


Replicant said:


> *DON'T PAY IT* and then complain because it sucks


I don't think anyone says it sucks, far from it - general consensus seems to be that what it does contain is great, just not living up to expectations associated with a broader idea of brand Zimmer


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## Replicant (Apr 1, 2018)

Kony said:


> Er, no it doesn't actually - eg legato, and the fact that sections are missing articulations, eg left side compared to right side sections not sharing all artics.



I just looked at the list on their site, and yes; it is clear from that page that left hand sides do lack some right side articulations and vice versa.

So again "missing articulations" is not a valid addition to "doesn't work as advertised" and which are referring to regarding legato?




Kony said:


> I don't think anyone says it sucks, far from it - general consensus seems to be that what it does contain is great, just not living up to expectations associated with a broader idea of brand Zimmer



and again that's ultimately meaningless. I've also seen plenty of people on YouTube and the like saying it sucks.

"Expectations" of what you HOPED a product would be instead of what it actually is, isn't cause for rage when it's obvious from the demos that it doesn't meet that expectation.


----------



## Kony (Apr 1, 2018)

Replicant said:


> So again "missing articulations" is not a valid addition to "doesn't work as advertised"


Yes it is - if a product is marketed for its huge wide sound based on players left, centre and right, then not including all artics for all positions renders the huge wide sound factor redundant if not all positions can perform the same artics



Replicant said:


> "Expectations" of what you HOPED a product would be instead of what it actually is, isn't cause for rage when it's obvious from the demos that it doesn't meet that expectation


Agree with this - where are you getting the "rage" from?


----------



## Kony (Apr 1, 2018)

Replicant said:


> and again that's ultimately meaningless. I've also seen plenty of people on YouTube and the like saying it sucks


I wouldn't base my opinions on YouTube comments....


----------



## Kony (Apr 1, 2018)

Replicant said:


> and which are referring to regarding legato?


The legato is broken - Christian Henson has admitted this on the forum. It will be fixed though, but obviously you are not correct in stating the product works as it should. Have you even got it and, if not, why make assertions like that saying it works perfectly...?


----------



## Replicant (Apr 1, 2018)

Kony said:


> Yes it is - if a product is marketed for its huge wide sound based on players left, centre and right, then not including all artics for all positions renders the huge wide sound factor redundant if not all positions can perform the same artics



No it isn't lol.

I've not seen any ad that stated that it contains all articulations all across the board. Being upset about this simply comes down to not doing your research before buying. Actually, that's what all of this comes down too.

I worked retail back when the Playstation 4 came out, and we had this ad in the window that said "On Sale Now". A guy tried to tell me it was false advertising because we were currently sold out. No, the ad says "On Sale Now" meaning it is passed street date and available for purchase should the retailer carry them; it does NOT say we have them in stock at present.

So it is not false advertising to state that your product has a "huge wide sound", which it sounds like it does because of the "stereo" patches or whatever, just because articulations are not shared on the patches branded left or right. It would be false advertising if it stated that it had all the same articulations across the board.



Kony said:


> Agree with this - where are you getting the "rage" from?



No offense, but I think you're being intentionally dense on this one.

The entire reason that all of these discussions exist is because people are upset at the fact that they feel this library let them down, is over-priced, isn't what was advertised, etc.

But like I keep saying: None of what people like Daniel James are saying for critiques is anything that wasn't obvious from the demos and descriptions on the site, long before it came out.

_In my opinion_, the real discussion should be about pre-ordering.

Again drawing on my experience in video game sales, pre-orders are a blight upon the software industry. It's a way to make bank before you deliver on anything and then you half-ass the product when it comes out. Video games also have "Season Passes" in recent years, which is absolutely hilarious because it's like a 60 dollar purchase of a "maybe". You don't even buy anything! It's just any future content they may or may not release for the game!

So there is, rightly so, a growing number of people who refuse to pre-order things or buy season passes.

I wonder if that kind of thing will hit that sample business in some form...


----------



## Replicant (Apr 1, 2018)

Kony said:


> The legato is broken - Christian Henson has admitted this on the forum. It will be fixed though, but obviously you are not correct in stating the product works as it should. Have you even got it and, if not, why make assertions like that saying it works perfectly...?



Learn 2 multiquote, dude.

Oh, well in that case...see my last post about pre-orders. Lots of broken video games at launch, and now samples too I suppose.

But I stand by my other points.


----------



## Kony (Apr 1, 2018)

Replicant said:


> No offense, but I think you're being intentionally dense on this one.



Actually, equating constructive criticism and honest feedback with rage is dense. 

Also, please ensure you know your facts before commenting about a newly-released library. Plus maybe don't resort to ad hominem attacks to make your point...?


----------



## Replicant (Apr 1, 2018)

Kony said:


> Actually, equating constructive criticism and honest feedback with rage is dense.
> 
> Also, please ensure you know your facts before commenting about a newly-released library. Plus maybe don't resort to ad hominem attacks to make your point...?



Oh my bad, nobody anywhere is pissed off because they feel they wasted 800 bucks or whatever on a product they can't resell or refund. My god.

So the legato is broken and will be patched.

No excuse for people not bothering to read the details about the library on the site or watch the videos and then complain about sound, dynamics, articulations etc. when it was all clearly laid out.


----------



## Kony (Apr 1, 2018)

Replicant said:


> No excuse for people not bothering to read the details about the library on the site or watch the videos and then complain about sound, dynamics, articulations etc. when it was all clearly laid out





Kony said:


> Also, please ensure you know your facts before commenting about a newly-released library.


----------



## Replicant (Apr 1, 2018)

The only "fact" I got wrong here was that there is a technical issue with the legato.

There is no false advertising. But by all means, continue to quote yourself.


----------



## Kony (Apr 2, 2018)

Quote myself? I thought that's what you meant when you said:



Replicant said:


> Learn 2 multiquote, dude.



Oh wait, you meant to multiquote you? Well, okay, since you said:



Replicant said:


> No excuse for people not bothering to read the details about the library on the site or watch the videos and then complain about sound, dynamics, articulations etc. when it was all clearly laid out.



What do you mean by clearly laid out since you've missed the most obvious one? The marketing quote for this library is: "From thundering basslines to glass-like high strings, this is symphonic strings maximised."

The response hasn't been unanimous on those fronts. On thundering basslines, even Mr Zimmer himself concedes they will have to be augmented to get a thundering sound:



Rctec said:


> The thundering basslines are usually a zebra2Hz or a sitting nicely with the Basses



Also, I'm sure the jury is still out regarding whether this library is strings "maximised"? Unless the definition of maximised these days is ppp.... I think the library is fantastic by the way, I'm just responding to your apparent hubris since you make assumptions based on "facts" which get proven wrong. Especially since you say:


Replicant said:


> None of what people like Daniel James are saying for critiques is anything that wasn't obvious from the demos and descriptions on the site, long before it came out.



There is a poll about this library on VI-C (yes, already zzz). Guess what, there is only one person who voted for his money back (about 4%) which by my reckoning, is not bad in the grand scheme of things when you consider the feedback about improvements, fixes, and it being launched on a new player ... where are all the people who "rage" about this library according to you?


----------



## Grilled Cheese (Apr 2, 2018)

Anyhoo, back to the tweet at hand. 

Personally I don’t have a problem with expensive marketing, GUIs and famous names. I find it all quite fun and exciting. Give me some hype, I enjoy it.

Like most people, I do my homework before making purchases. Most companies make it easy to do this. Give me transparency, I expect it.

False advertising is a different matter altogether, quite distinct from marketing hype. Give me lies and I’ll never buy from you again.

I honestly can’t recall the last time I ever saw a sample library developer intentionally misleading or falsely advertising. So is there really a problem here?


----------



## Puzzlefactory (Apr 2, 2018)

Replicant said:


> This is a learning opportunity for consumers.
> 
> I hate that I feel "vindicated" in any way about this, but I've long maintained that a lot of sample libraries are indeed over-hyped and overpriced and I've usually been met with fierce opposition to that opinion.



You can’t really talk about “overpriced” unless you have an understanding of the market.

It’s not just a consideration for the consumers, you also have to take into account the point of view of the suppliers as well.

Without a decent return on the investment and decent profit there’s no incentive to produce the library.

If they sold the libraries cheaper then it would occur to them that they could use the same skill sets to make a “cheaper to produce” library that appeals to a much much much much much larger consumer base, aka the EDM crowd.


----------



## mouse (Apr 2, 2018)

Is the cinesamples April fools product supposed to be a piss take of Soundiron and their "Cube" product?

https://soundiron.com/products/cube


----------



## mouse (Apr 2, 2018)

And their box art for it is taking the piss out of Soundiron shimmer?


----------



## Ron Kords (Apr 2, 2018)

Maybe SF will do a flash sale the day of Cinesamples next release???

It would be a popcorn apocalypse here!

EDIT 

Said sale would obviously be in no way related to their competitors release and a video released confirming the same...


----------



## will_m (Apr 2, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> As I said, certain environments and situations can inspire a tweet but it still doesn't mean its a directed attack. It only seems that way to anyone on VI control following the current HZ threads. You could read Mike's tweets having not seen the HZ Strings drama and still agree with them. Meaning they are a subject based tweet, and subjects such as over marketing and teasing teasers of trailers are in my opinion open for discussion. If a conversation about hybrid libraries being shit came out just as I was about to launch mine of course I would feel it was aimed at me, but if its a problem with the general situation and not me specifically I am 100% ok with that being posted and having that conversation. Had Mike posted "Spitfire suck" I would agree that its out of order, but his tweet was on a subject which while it may be dominated by Spitfire currently, its not exclusive to them.
> 
> Like I said you can read into it however you want, but alongside the explanation video I am willing to accept he is discussing the subject and no one directly. Again musing like this are always inspired by current events. Like we are currently having discussions in the world about gun control, the recent school shooting was the catalyst for it, but not every debate is directly about it.
> 
> -DJ



Again, I didn't say the tweets were an attack. I'm sure they weren't solely leveled at Spitfire and may have been informed by a greater discussion but they were almost certainly prompted by the HZS release. If there were other libraries being released that week with "expensive marketing" and a "famous name" attached then maybe it would be easier to see it as something more general but given that this thread exists and the responses to Mike so far I don't think I'm the only one.

Just because a statement is aimed at more than one individual or company doesn't mean that the statement is somehow diminished. If Mike doesn't like the way another developer operates surely the best way to combat it is to go out and do the opposite and he if wanted to open a discussion on the subject then I'm not sure this was the right way to go about it.

I own libraries from both Cinesamples and Spitfire and seeing one dev publicly call out another over marketing practices (whether exclusively aimed at them or not) just doesn't seem productive.


----------



## Puzzlefactory (Apr 2, 2018)

Seems ridiculous to me that anyone is arguing that it wasn’t directed at Spitfire given the timing and wording of the tweet. 

How many other companies released a library with a big marketing campaign and a famous name associated with it, that day?


----------



## James Everingham (Apr 2, 2018)

Puzzlefactory said:


> Seems ridiculous to me that anyone is arguing that it wasn’t directed at Spitfire given the timing and wording of the tweet.
> 
> How many other companies released a library with a big marketing campaign and a famous name associated with it, that day?


As Daniel eloquently put:


Daniel James said:


> One can make a generic statement inspired by a current surge of talk on a particular subject without it being a targeted attack.


..the tweet was likely *inspired* by HZS but - importantly - *remained nameless* - unless we're trying to kid ourselves otherwise in an attempt to stir up bullshit vicontrol drama

Mike is no stranger to marketing and famous name branding - his tweet was a mere reminder to judge libraries based on their quality, not the marketing hype. I'm honestly confused as to why, thousands of replies and multiple threads later, we're all still sat here discussing it. I know it didn't take me long to watch the walkthroughs, reviews and demos and come to a decision as to whether HZS was going to be a purchase that would inspire me and enhance my music or not, regardless of the branding and marketing surrounding the library.


----------



## Puzzlefactory (Apr 2, 2018)

I would be more inclined to believe that, if he hadn’t tweeted it on the day of release of HZ strings.


----------



## Replicant (Apr 2, 2018)

Puzzlefactory said:


> You can’t really talk about “overpriced” unless you have an understanding of the market.
> 
> It’s not just a consideration for the consumers, you also have to take into account the point of view of the suppliers as well.
> 
> ...



Just about every orchestral sample library on the market is discounted by as much as 75% percent, multiple times throughout the year, every year. Some devs are especially notorious for this.

If you're dropping your prices by substantial amounts, several times, it's a sure sign that you probably don't move a lot of product at the base price.

and in regards to this library, 800 is an insane asking price when again, something like CSS is _half the price _and thus far a superior all-around string library by most accounts.

If you're going to make a product that needs to cost 800 bucks, you better be sure it's something a lot of people will gladly pay 800 bucks for.


----------



## Puzzlefactory (Apr 2, 2018)

Just about every library on the market is discounted by 75%?

Er, what?


----------



## prodigalson (Apr 2, 2018)

Replicant said:


> and in regards to this library, 800 is an insane asking price when again, something like CSS is _half the price _and thus far a superior all-around string library by most accounts.



800 is very expensive for sure but in assessing whether or not it's "overpriced" I'm not sure it's fair to compare it to CSS as they're totally different libraries and I don't think whether or not something is an "all-rounder" is an accurate measure of something's intrinsic value.


----------



## Puzzlefactory (Apr 2, 2018)

It’s also not how market economics works. 

If libraries were generally overpriced you would see a lot more new companies entering the market, undercutting the current prices until all prices reached a new lower equilibrium. 

Also, I wonder how much of a cut royalties for 344 players will be...?


----------



## Erick - BVA (Apr 2, 2018)

It could have just as easily been a mission statement of sorts in the context of the current sample library environment.
I think a solution for closing the gap


will_m said:


> Again, I didn't say the tweets were an attack. I'm sure they weren't solely leveled at Spitfire and may have been informed by a greater discussion but they were almost certainly prompted by the HZS release. If there were other libraries being released that week with "expensive marketing" and a "famous name" attached then maybe it would be easier to see it as something more general but given that this thread exists and the responses to Mike so far I don't think I'm the only one.
> 
> Just because a statement is aimed at more than one individual or company doesn't mean that the statement is somehow diminished. If Mike doesn't like the way another developer operates surely the best way to combat it is to go out and do the opposite and he if wanted to open a discussion on the subject then I'm not sure this was the right way to go about it.
> 
> I own libraries from both Cinesamples and Spitfire and seeing one dev publicly call out another over marketing practices (whether exclusively aimed at them or not) just doesn't seem productive.



How is it not productive? Or rather, how is it anti-productive?
It could have just as easily been seen as a mini-mission statement. It was a very general statement. "big names and fancy gui's ALONE do not make a good instrument. We will not do that at Cinemasamples." (paraphrasing).
Rather than project on behalf of other library companies, why can't we be positive and assume the best in Cinesamples as well? Instead of "oh, they're attacking so and so" (specifically or generally). It wasn't even an attack. If there are companies who rely solely on big names and fancy GUIs, then their being offended would merely be an admission of guilt. Shouldn't it be a given that any developer or company rely on the merits of the product itself rather than the start power, alone?
So he was differientiating his mission as a brand from what others may or may not be doing. It's a competitive market. It seems completely reasonable for him to do that.


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## Erick - BVA (Apr 2, 2018)

James Everingham said:


> As Daniel eloquently put:
> ..the tweet was likely *inspired* by HZS but - importantly - *remained nameless* - unless we're trying to kid ourselves otherwise in an attempt to stir up bullshit vicontrol drama
> 
> Mike is no stranger to marketing and famous name branding - his tweet was a mere reminder to judge libraries based on their quality, not the marketing hype. I'm honestly confused as to why, thousands of replies and multiple threads later, we're all still sat here discussing it. I know it didn't take me long to watch the walkthroughs, reviews and demos and come to a decision as to whether HZS was going to be a purchase that would inspire me and enhance my music or not, regardless of the branding and marketing surrounding the library.



Well said. That should just about wrap up this thread, right?


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## Ron Kords (Apr 2, 2018)

Sibelius19 said:


> Well said. That should just about wrap up this thread, right?


If I tweet 'No longer should the U.K. tax payer fund an elite hereditary family' on the day of Prince Harry's wedding and then claim it's not about the royal family I'm going to look pretty daft 

In some respects, it would have been better for Mike to have had the courage of his convictions as DJ did/does...


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## Daniel James (Apr 2, 2018)

Ron Kords said:


> If I tweet 'No longer should the U.K. tax payer fund an elite hereditary family' on the day of Prince Harry's wedding and then claim it's not about the royal family I'm going to look pretty daft
> 
> In some respects, it would have been better for Mike to have had the courage of his convictions as DJ did/does...



Your tweet has a targeted victim though, it is already aimed at the royal family in its design, because we only fund one elite hereditary family. Saying over marketing, celebrity names and flashy GUI's alone don't make for great products is a generic non specific statement that can apply to many different companies in our industry, it may have been heavily inspired by HZS but its not aimed directly at it. He even mentions that they all apply to his own company in the video.

If your hypothetical tweet was "Should the public have more say on what their tax money is spent on" and it was inspired by the royal family you would be discussing the subject inspired by a specific event.

-DJ


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## Jay Panikkar (Apr 2, 2018)




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## Ron Kords (Apr 2, 2018)

House of Lords sais 'hi!'

I'll remember to tweet 'families'.... 

I think its the timing thats the issue but that was co-incidence it looks like.


BTW, if MI5 is reading this I'm a royalist (in a way)


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## Daniel James (Apr 2, 2018)

Ron Kords said:


> House of Lords sais 'hi!'
> 
> I'll remember to tweet 'families'....
> 
> ...



Yeah mate like I said, musings of a philosophical nature are very rarely had just randomly. They are inspired by current events. So I have no doubt the HZS got Mike thinking about those aspects...how he feels about them, how he has dealt with them in the past, and how he feels now. Which lead to the tweet.

It only looks like its targeted directly at Spitfire to us because we are all currently having this discussion at length, so it ties into our own current narrative. But the tweet is very generically worded and is spoken from a general subject standpoint. Again had he said that his tweet was directed at Spitfire, then its not cool.....but he said in the video it wasn't, so then we should be discussing the subject in general not OMGZ SAMPLE DEV DRAMA. The topics he brought up are very prevalent in our industry, and I think they are worth discussing for sure.

-DJ


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## Ron Kords (Apr 2, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> Yeah mate like I said, musings of a philosophical nature are very rarely had just randomly. They are inspired by current events. So I have no doubt the HZS got Mike thinking about those aspects...how he feels about them, how he has dealt with them in the past, and how he feels now. Which lead to the tweet.
> 
> It only looks like its targeted directly at Spitfire to us because we are all currently having this discussion at length, so it ties into our own current narrative. But the tweet is very generically worded and is spoken from a general subject standpoint. Again had he said that his tweet was directed at Spitfire its not cool.....but he said in the video it wasn't, so then we should be discussing the subject in general not OMGZ SAMPLE DEV DRAMA. The topics he brought up are very prevalent in our industry, and I think they are worth discussing for sure.
> 
> -DJ


I suspect Cinesamples and Spitfire will do just fine out of all this shinanigans...

I'm having a close look at Cinepiano right now!


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## benmrx (Apr 2, 2018)

Just watched the video Mike posted......, well..., all other things put aside..., it was pretty eye opening to see that CineStrings Pro is still just a 'twinkle in the eye'. Going off what he said.., it hasn't been started, nor is there any set date to start.


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## Replicant (Apr 2, 2018)

Puzzlefactory said:


> Just about every library on the market is discounted by 75%?
> 
> Er, what?





Puzzlefactory said:


> It’s also not how market economics works.
> 
> If libraries were generally overpriced you would see a lot more new companies entering the market, undercutting the current prices until all prices reached a new lower equilibrium.
> 
> Also, I wonder how much of a cut royalties for 344 players will be...?




"a lot of libraries" isn't "libraries are generally overpriced"

and "as much a 75%" is "just about every library is discounted by 75%"

But yes, a majority of the libraries do go on sale, and some companies do so many times a year and it's usually the ones with the high prices, non-kontakt player and/or outdated libraries who do. The average price seems to be about 399 - 499 USD which is fair enough.

SO Platinum is nigh 20 years old, was at one time the most popular orchestral library, and still goes for 935 USD regular, on sale (yet again lol) now for 699. Why would you pay that normal price when you can just wait for one of the many sales, or get something more current like Albion or Inspire for again...half the price.



Puzzlefactory said:


> If libraries were generally overpriced you would see a lot more new companies entering the market, undercutting the current prices until all prices reached a new lower equilibrium.



There are a handful of companies that actually have the resources to make these things. 8Dio charges about as much for Century Strings as HZS costs PLUS you need to purchase full Kontakt to use it. That's over a thousand USD. For that price I could buy all of Cinesamples core products or CS2/CSS three times over and there is nothing about Century Strings that is so much better to justify that kind of money.

And I haven't seen the sales figures, but I would bet you an undisclosed sum of money more people own the Alex Wallbank and Mike Patti stuff. Really haven't seen any evidence suggesting otherwise.

But it's beside the point and off topic anyway, so I'm not going to say more about it here.

I stand by my point I've made here: Do your research before buying, and if you are like me and feel that 800 is too much, don't buy it.


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## will_m (Apr 2, 2018)

Sibelius19 said:


> How is it not productive? Or rather, how is it anti-productive?



Unproductive in the sense that it was vague enough to be read into in many different ways, which generally creates drama and speculation. If you want to seriously address an issue isn't it better to post something clear, concise and reasoned and if its something you believe in then maybe a suggestion of a way forward?

A thinly veiled swipe at other developers practises (be it just solely SF or any devs) just doesn't produce anything except a lengthy back and forth in the comments section.


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## thereus (Apr 2, 2018)

Ron Kords said:


> House of Lords sais 'hi!'
> 
> I'll remember to tweet 'families'....
> 
> ...



The House of Lords says. “Arse!”.


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## dpasdernick (Apr 2, 2018)

Gentlemen, gentlemen. Please calm down. Yes there's been some upsetting tweets... Some ruffled feathers and more than a few sour grapes. But take a moment and look at the big picture. Arguing about what Mike really meant is keeping you talented artists from doing what you were truly born to do and that is... shopping for more sample libraries you don't need. Now I suggest you grab your credit cards and start racking up some debt.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Apr 5, 2018)

Ron Kords said:


> I suspect Cinesamples and Spitfire will do just fine out of all this shinanigans...
> 
> I'm having a close look at Cinepiano right now!


Just uploaded my review of the library!


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## blougui (Apr 5, 2018)

@ChrisSiuMusic : thanx for sharing, but really it's not the right place to do so - unless you want to take advantage of the drama and click bait involved here.
Pretty cool piano chops, anyway


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## mouse (Apr 5, 2018)

He posted it in 4 threads....


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Apr 5, 2018)

blougui said:


> @ChrisSiuMusic : thanx for sharing, but really it's not the right place to do so - unless you want to take advantage of the drama and click bait involved here.
> Pretty cool piano chops, anyway


Thanks blougui  Sure thing! I do agree with what Mike said, it does take more than a famous name for sales. However, although it might have been out of frustration, all he can really do is try to make even better products that show innovation and make composers' lives easier. I think CinePiano is a great step in that direction.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Apr 5, 2018)

mouse said:


> He posted it in 4 threads....


Yes indeed, with each discussing pianos or CinePiano specifically. Simply sharing my thoughts on it.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Apr 5, 2018)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> Yes indeed, with each discussing pianos or CinePiano specifically. Simply sharing my thoughts on it.



4 threads? 

Super good sounding scoring stage piano.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Apr 5, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> 4 threads?
> 
> Super good sounding scoring stage piano.


Agreed, it does sound lovely. A little too much low end for my taste, but the provided EQ can handle that.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Apr 5, 2018)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> Agreed, it does sound lovely. A little too much low end for my taste, but the provided EQ can handle that.



Mike Patti at his best. I love the schmocky low end though, if too much ..you can mix it different. But sounds rich. Hope they will do one day a more deeper and updated sampled and coded MGM Orchestra.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Apr 5, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Mike Patti at his best. I love the schmocky low end though, if too much ..you can mix it different. But sounds rich. Hope they will do one day a more deeper and updated sampled and coded MGM Orchestra.


There were rumours about having HollywoodWinds re-wired through the Sony stage for a different sounding option as well. No update there yet I'm afraid..


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## robgb (Apr 5, 2018)

patrick76 said:


> Trump dissed his competitors continuously during the 2016 election and it didn't hurt him at all.


I'd say it pretty much made him one of the most reviled people in the world. He gained a temporary advantage with a small group of people that worked in his favor. But generally speaking, it's not a wise move to make, especially if you're trying to sell your goods to the public. It's like Paul Thompson's treatment of Daniel James in another thread. Business 101 tells you to shut the hell up when someone criticizes your product. Just keep smiling and remain positive. Backbiting just looks petty.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Apr 5, 2018)

robgb said:


> I'd say it pretty much made him one of the most reviled people in the world. He gained a temporary advantage with a small group of people that worked in his favor. But generally speaking, it's not a wise move to make, especially if you're trying to sell your goods to the public. It's like Paul Thompson's treatment of Daniel James in another thread. Business 101 tells you to shut the hell up when someone criticizes your product. Just keep smiling and remain positive. Backbiting just looks petty.



Pretty much agreed. I anyways don´t understand the wind because Daniel was fair in his first impressions and didn´t slam the product at all. Sure he did critic it but backed his points up. (discussed already to death I know). I actually spent the time watching both of Daniels videos in complete (which I rarely do to be honest in that regards ecspecially having from the start up no interest in the HZ Strings at all). Just my opinion and perspective. But I think Hans was doing well in reacting to his critic. I think who was most more embarrassed was the spitfire heads, probably because of the NFR talk which I can understand though.


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## robgb (Apr 5, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Pretty much agreed. I anyways don´t understand the wind because Daniel was fair in his first impressions and didn´t slam the product at all. Sure he did critic it but backed his points up. (discussed already to death I know). I actually spent the time watching both of Daniels videos in complete (which I rarely do to be honest in that regards ecspecially having from the start up no interest in the HZ Strings at all). Just my opinion and perspective. But I think Hans was doing well in reacting to his critic. I think who was most more embarrassed was the spitfire heads, probably because of the NFR talk which I can understand though.


Well, if the NFR stuff is true, they should be embarrassed. I write books for a living and publishers don't deny reviewers a copy of a book because he or she might give it a bad review. In fact, Kirkus Reviews is one of the harshest reviewers, rarely likes anything, and publishers send everything to them anyway. There should be no conditions on sending out an NFR, on either side.


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## patrick76 (Apr 5, 2018)

robgb said:


> I'd say it pretty much made him one of the most reviled people in the world. He gained a temporary advantage with a small group of people that worked in his favor. But generally speaking, it's not a wise move to make, especially if you're trying to sell your goods to the public. It's like Paul Thompson's treatment of Daniel James in another thread. Business 101 tells you to shut the hell up when someone criticizes your product. Just keep smiling and remain positive. Backbiting just looks petty.



Yeah I should have specified I was thinking just about the election. And I do agree with your philosophy on business. However, I think there are plenty of examples where it just doesn't seem to matter. 

Most importantly (to me  ), when you quoted me on just that one sentence, it almost appears that I was somehow justifying Trump's rude and degrading behavior... I'm certainly NOT (in case it was perceived that way).


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## prodigalson (Apr 5, 2018)

robgb said:


> Well, if the NFR stuff is true, they should be embarrassed. I write books for a living and publishers don't deny reviewers a copy of a book because he or she might give it a bad review. In fact, Kirkus Reviews is one of the harshest reviewers, rarely likes anything, and publishers send everything to them anyway. There should be no conditions on sending out an NFR, on either side.



Well, to be fair, they didn't say they weren't giving him an NFR because he might give it a bad review. They had apparently already stopped giving him NFRs because they didn't agree with his "First looks" and the overall approach he has to reviewing a library.


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## Daniel James (Apr 8, 2018)

prodigalson said:


> Well, to be fair, they didn't say they weren't giving him an NFR because he might give it a bad review. They had apparently already stopped giving him NFRs because they didn't agree with his "First looks" and the overall approach he has to reviewing a library.



Which is fair enough. I'm not personally behind the logic as my first looks always end up have the same conclusions as the overviews, its just one is more of a shared experience (live shows) and the other is more of a presentation (Overview) both of which I have done for them previously, a style ironically enough emulated by some of those who still receive NFR's. So I imagine its probably more me as a person than the given explanation of _how_ I do them. But I will continue to cover all the libraries that interest me regardless. It just means in some situations I might be 'priced out' of being able to cover everything. 

-DJ


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## Patrick de Caumette (Apr 10, 2018)

14 pages, really?!!


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## guydoingmusic (Apr 10, 2018)

Patrick de Caumette said:


> 14 pages, really?!!



This is why Jerry Springer has been on the air for 27 seasons.


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## SterlingArcher (Apr 10, 2018)

guydoingmusic said:


> This is why Jerry Springer has been on the air for 27 seasons.



There’s also a musical about the ‘Jerry Springer’ show. I saw it on TV a long time back. Not bad. I wonder when Hans Zimmer Strings: The Musical will be made. And who would play the part of DJ.


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## Mike Connelly (Apr 17, 2018)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> There were rumours about having HollywoodWinds re-wired through the Sony stage for a different sounding option as well. No update there yet I'm afraid..



I still love HWW but it's desperately in need of an update. Hopefully they'll get to it and bring it up to speed with current programming at some point.


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