# Ponchielli - Update: Complete Suite (Attempt for extreme realism with sampled orchestra)



## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 16, 2019)

On the Hunt for achieving _*extreme realism with my sampled orchestra*_ I tried a few new techniques out.




Thanks for checking it out.

And thanks for A. Ponchielli for the great catchy and grandiose music he has written. (worth a study just for the orchestrational devices imo.)


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## rottoy (Aug 16, 2019)

Marvelously orchestrated as always, Alexander!
My only real complaint is that the room tone is a bit too prominent at times, dial it back a bit and things would be peachy throughout.
You could also take a look at pushing the gran cassa (?) hits back a bit into the room.
EDIT: Hmm, the room tone noise floor problem only seems to be present in the YouTube link.
It sounds fine on SoundCloud. Oh well.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 16, 2019)

rottoy said:


> Marvelously orchestrated as always, Alexander!
> My only real complaint is that the room tone is a bit too prominent at times, dial it back a bit and things would be peachy throughout.
> You could also take a look at pushing the gran cassa (?) hits back a bit into the room.
> EDIT: Hmm, the room tone noise floor problem only seems to be present in the YouTube link.
> It sounds fine on SoundCloud. Oh well.



Hej mate, 
Thanks! Actually not entirely done with the whole 7 and 1 half minute suite. Will dial in 1db or 2 back the room and the Gran Cassa I will check out. (more ambience? or quiter? Actually that thing is really also in recordings that loud..I think I need once in my life smash on that thing)


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## rottoy (Aug 16, 2019)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> and the Gran Cassa I will check out. (more ambience? or quiter? Actually that thing is really also in recordings that loud..I think I need once in my life smash on that thing)


I would make it more ambient, yes. Felt a bit too punchy and upfront in comparison to the rest of the orchestra.


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## thov72 (Aug 16, 2019)

mhhm verrah nice. not to say.... splendid.
A few sentences on what you do with samples (different attack/../../.../../....) maybe even at certain moments in the music would be greatly appreciated 
e.g. at 0.36s I did x to the brass ..... << I know I´m askng a lot but hey, if you don´t ask, you get no answer. And we still have sumer break so maybe you have some time left.....


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## Daniel (Aug 16, 2019)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> On the Hunt for achieving _*extreme realism with my sampled orchestra*_ I tried a few new techniques out..........


Very great realism! You play guitar very well and also you use the keyboard controller to do this music.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 16, 2019)

thov72 said:


> mhhm verrah nice. not to say.... splendid.
> A few sentences on what you do with samples (different attack/../../.../../....) maybe even at certain moments in the music would be greatly appreciated
> e.g. at 0.36s I did x to the brass ..... << I know I´m askng a lot but hey, if you don´t ask, you get no answer. And we still have sumer break so maybe you have some time left.....



Yes, different attack times and release times, sometimes I shorten them quite a lot. Also layering instruments, detuning. For that specific part it is simply a 2 trumpet repetition patch from CSB layered with the regular 3 SM trumpets (over a tec2 controller) to add a bit dynamic and unique performance aspect. Also part of the sound is to goose them with the Winds but that´s more an orchestration specific thing. The rest of the brass (like horns) are here from CSB also. But I didn´t use only CSB Horns. Depending on the part I sometimes combined from MA1 the A3 Horns Ensemble shorts for layering or to replace them.


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## Heinigoldstein (Aug 17, 2019)

You're absolutely one of the mock up masters here in this forum ! Looking forward to hear the whole 7,5 minutes.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 18, 2019)

Heinigoldstein said:


> You're absolutely one of the mock up masters here in this forum ! Looking forward to hear the whole 7,5 minutes.



Mhm, thanks for the flowers, not sure about that though, but I am working hard to improve. Sure I will post the whole suite once I am done with all the programming and final mixing. Thanks for checking it out, Heini.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 18, 2019)

Ok here is a very honest and brutal 1 on 1 against the live version. I can say the following: Unless you want to lose your mind, I simply would not advice anybody in the world to mock that up with samples. It´s hilarous challenging imo and almost every bar in that piece reminds me that there is no such thing as a common articulation system, where a normal "default configured" sample library patch can capture anywhere near descent any of that performance. In order to capture a glimpse of that you have to step back and make a total different roadmap and plan which has nothing to do with any common keyswitching or articulation based system at all.


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## Heinigoldstein (Aug 18, 2019)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Ok here is a very honest and brutal 1 on 1 against the live version. I can say the following: Unless you want to lose your mind, I simply would not advice anybody in the world to mock that up with samples. It´s hilarous challenging imo and almost every bar in that piece reminds me that there is no such thing as a common articulation system, where a normal "default configured" sample library patch can capture anywhere near descent any of that performance. In order to capture a glimpse of that you have to step back and make a total different roadmap and plan which has nothing to do with any common keyswitching or articulation based system at all.



Well, we all know, nothing beats the real thing and the more lively it gets, the harder it is. But it's pretty close for samples. How long do you work on a mock up like this ? I'm used to give up after a while most of the time, because it always takes ages.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 18, 2019)

Heinigoldstein said:


> Well, we all know, nothing beats the real thing and the more lively it gets, the harder it is. But it's pretty close for samples. How long do you work on a mock up like this ? I'm used to give up after a while most of the time, because it always takes ages.



Three Weeks so far. I never give up. Never. I attached to my fridge a handwritten note which I see every morning. It sais: Intensity + Consistency = Results. Though this message was meant regarding my diet and HIT workouts I apply that to my life in general.


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## novaburst (Aug 18, 2019)

Heinigoldstein said:


> pretty close for samples.



I think its more than close i simply cant tell the difference, i am not familiar with the piece but i dare not choose what one is the sample, the whole thing just left me in wonderland.

@AlexanderSchiborr not quite sure how your doing it but pure dedication, i think deep down even those that are very experienced are having trouble choosing the live from the sample.

It is a new level


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## rlundv (Aug 18, 2019)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Ok here is a very honest and brutal 1 on 1 against the live version. I can say the following: Unless you want to lose your mind, I simply would not advice anybody in the world to mock that up with samples. It´s hilarous challenging imo and almost every bar in that piece reminds me that there is no such thing as a common articulation system, where a normal "default configured" sample library patch can capture anywhere near descent any of that performance. In order to capture a glimpse of that you have to step back and make a total different roadmap and plan which has nothing to do with any common keyswitching or articulation based system at all.



Man, this is ridiculous! Best I've ever heard. Would you ever consider making a walkthrough?
Edit: typo


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## muk (Aug 18, 2019)

Absolutely fantastic work Alexander, as everything I have heard from you. This is probably as good as it gets with orchestral samples currently. As impressive an achievement your mockup is for samples, compared to the recording it is still a long, long way off. It can't hold a candle to the recording.


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## servandus (Aug 18, 2019)

Wow, that's what I'd call a labour of love. Fantastic mockup! So many wonderful details in it. Of course, the standard orchestral repertoire is arguably the craziest thing to do with samples, and the fact that you're posting the live orchestral version for comparison says a lot about your work and attitude. In a sense, it's like playing chess with Kasparov: you know the game is lost beforehand, but you still play your best. I absolutely love that (and I think it's by far the quickest and more inteligent way to learn any craft).

I think there're many things which clearly show the limitations of samples and are simply impossible to solve, but, if you're not too tired to try, two things hit me that I think you can easily improve (if you agree with what I hear, of course):

1) you could try layering a pp legato unisono line along the meassured tremoli that leads to the climax at the end of the intro (marked "sortono le ore del giorno") to make it sound more fluid and lyrical. That way you'll be able to still hear the tremolo clearly, but less pronounced (samples are always too obvious; in this kind of passages, if you listen to a live orchestra, most of the times you can sense kind of a real legato part even if there's actually none). I'm sure this is doable with the tools you're using.

2) the dynamics at the cello part (in the "sortono le ore della notte" section) are too bumpy to be credible, because the long notes inflate too much in relation to the weaker piqué bowing that preceedes them. I'm sure that's a tricky passage to mock up, but I think that's also doable if you temper the CC curves in the long notes (or avoid prerecorded swells if you're using them, or draw a compensating CC curve if the legato patch you're using inflates the note by itself), and again layer a pp spiccato patch on top of the second note of the slurred pattern (the legato patches tend to have too slow an attack to work in those quick passages, otherwise it sounds legato, but not present enough). This might be difficult or even impossible to fix, but I think it's the weakest part of your mockup, so it might be worth trying, given the amount of time you've spent with this, and the level of detail you're working with.

Again, fantastic mockup. I enjoyed it thoroughly.


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## Abdulrahman (Aug 18, 2019)

Hi.

Since you are talking about sample realism, I would like to share a short cue as well 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/rzj8661abzh3yyp/waltz_demo.mp3?dl=0


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## pipedr (Aug 18, 2019)

Amazing work, Alexander. I would also love to see a walkthrough or tutorial going through what you’ve learned doing this.


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## rainierjmartin (Aug 18, 2019)

Your string sound is so agile! What samples do you use for them?


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## OleJoergensen (Aug 19, 2019)

It sounds so good it is satisfying to listing too!
Your mock ups always sounds good and are developing doing time.

The life orchestra is still superior. Especially the timbre of the instruments and the sound of the room-hall.

Thank you for sharing!


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 19, 2019)

Hej Guys 

Thanks so much for all the feedback. And yes: Of course the live is better..that was or can´t be any goal to top that but at least to get near to that. I want my own original tracks to sound also better and building templates like that help me with that kind of approach also. Regarding the requests for a walkthrough. I have unfortunately very limited time these days, so I will post a few macro tips for this mockup which means some general thoughts what hopefully might help a bit. Someone asked about the strings: Berlin(incl. expansions), OT Sphere mixed with SCS.

@Abdulrahman Thanks for posting your example. Sounds nice. Thanks for sharing mate.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 19, 2019)

servandus said:


> Wow, that's what I'd call a labour of love. Fantastic mockup! So many wonderful details in it. Of course, the standard orchestral repertoire is arguably the craziest thing to do with samples, and the fact that you're posting the live orchestral version for comparison says a lot about your work and attitude. In a sense, it's like playing chess with Kasparov: you know the game is lost beforehand, but you still play your best. I absolutely love that (and I think it's by far the quickest and more inteligent way to learn any craft).
> 
> I think there're many things which clearly show the limitations of samples and are simply impossible to solve, but, if you're not too tired to try, two things hit me that I think you can easily improve (if you agree with what I hear, of course):
> 
> ...



Thanks so much for the great tips! Once I am through I will or have to polish some parts of course and I will definitely try that out. Great suggestions from you and thanks for sharing them.


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## Heinigoldstein (Aug 19, 2019)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Three Weeks so far. I never give up. Never. I attached to my fridge a handwritten note which I see every morning. It sais: Intensity + Consistency = Results. Though this message was meant regarding my diet and HIT workouts I apply that to my life in general.


3 weeks so far.......man I'm happy to hear that. Some guys here seem to work pretty fast and if you would ´ve said you did it in 3 days, it would be very frustrating to me and would leave me with the feeling being an untalented fool. I never reached consistency in my workouts though, but within music, mmh....maybe. Still not sure I´ll reach this level, thanks again for sharing.


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## Consona (Aug 19, 2019)

Where's the masterclass?


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## Ben E (Aug 19, 2019)

Jesus...


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## Saxer (Aug 20, 2019)

This sounds fantastic! What a hell of work!

Concerning the workflow: do you work on sections like i.e. flutes to make them perfect and move on to trumpets or violins... or is it more like: I can't hear the clarinets anyway in the tutti part so I don't need them here but lets add some missing low end by doubling the celli with another library...?

So how much is "real" orchestration and performance and how much is mixing signals and using masking effects or additional dirt and ramdomness? I think both is important.

I'd be really interested to listen to the different sections seperately.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 20, 2019)

Saxer said:


> This sounds fantastic! What a hell of work!
> 
> Concerning the workflow: do you work on sections like i.e. flutes to make them perfect and move on to trumpets or violins... or is it more like: I can't hear the clarinets anyway in the tutti part so I don't need them here but lets add some missing low end by doubling the celli with another library...?
> 
> ...


I have learned over the years that a macro look over the section and working accordingly gives me better results. So to answer your question: No, I definitely don´t work on each section seperately but all together in a specific way to create the right color and blend. According to how close that is to real orchestration I would say: At parts yes, most of the time not. Some has to do with the layering / masking techniques, another thing is that I inccoorporate these days quite a bunch of sounddesign elements into the programming which I wouldn´t notate at all and it is primarly for midi performance mockups. 

At the other guys here:

About the masterclass thing: I am thinking about that but it needs time and preparation which I need first to figure out, also some technical things (recording it the right way, overdubs etc etc.). In general I would consider applying the masterclass specifically to this track, not because the techniques are that specific just for that track but simply because I think this track incoorporates many many good things which I learned over the last couple of years. 



Ben E said:


> Jesus...



Amen, Ben.


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## mediumaevum (Aug 20, 2019)

This sounds extremely realistic.

But of all the realistic samples I've heard, very few attempt realism with longer notes on the strings.

Why so? Is it simply much easier to do realistic sounds with short notes? I'm mainly working with long notes on the violins, violas and cellos. I'd really appreciate tips on making an adagio piece realistic using samples only.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 20, 2019)

mediumaevum said:


> This sounds extremely realistic.
> 
> But of all the realistic samples I've heard, very few attempt realism with longer notes on the strings.
> 
> Why so? Is it simply much easier to do realistic sounds with short notes? I'm mainly working with long notes on the violins, violas and cellos. I'd really appreciate tips on making an adagio piece realistic using samples only.



Thanks buddy,

Its not all short notes but all kinds of different types of shorts and performances in the shorts. Once you explore that subject deeper you will find how difficult it can be even to mock up the most simple line in case you want to get close to the real thing. I am a guy who is very considerate about the details in the work when mocking up things. Having said that there is no such thing as a fixed note length even if notated that way. It seems first to be easier but you are missing a lot of content in that regards if you ignore that fact. Some things can be even more difficult (maintaining clarity with clouding releases in fast passages etc etc.) Long notes are of course also not easy of course because you need to battle with certain types of issues like baked in performance swhich simply not match the desired content or simply with the very limited recorded true legato dynamic range or other things like tuning and timbre. Adagio pieces are also very difficult and a bit of their own "territory" or league. I would even go that far to say that it deserves a seperated sort of template with very foccused treatments only for that style.

A general tip which can help is to treat each line very carefully with a unique performance. And when I am speaking of unique I mean unique in everything. Also layering solo instruments very settle can help to goose and enrich the details. You need also to detune the lines quite a bit to create a better more realistic blend. Often what leads to more mediocre results is also that the strings in mocked up adagio pieces simply sound to even, to much in tune, too perfect in timing, they don´t swell really, they don´t breath like the real thing therefore. To fake that you need to meticously pay attention to things also like little decrescendos or other irregularities in tuning. Also most sample libraries simply don´t reach that very quite delicated ppp or even to niente dynamics which are part of these details. There is no general tip, it always depends for what sort of performance and source you are going for. Also try to search for patches which are rich in sound and match the general tone and vibe to the reference naturally or at least quite a bit. Spent time in researching what kind of sound naturally fit there without humiliating them with eq, additional reverbs etc. Is the piece maybe bowed in a very specific way? How do the violins sound? Do they have that lush sul tasto sound? Before even mocking up one bar spent time experimenting with all the libraries you have.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 20, 2019)

Another tip as I wanted to share also some tips to you guys here: Nothing is worse like composers who have quadrillions of libraries *but they simply don´t know their content*. That is a perfect recipe for desaster. Why is that? Because in order to create great mockups you need and I repeat that: *YOU need to know the strenghts and weakness of your library IN AND OUT. Simple as that. *You also need exactly to know what Patch X in Library Y does, how it sounds and what its great for and not. When you do your homework like that you also speed up your workflow because you avoid and minimize SHITTY choices.


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## mediumaevum (Aug 20, 2019)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Thanks buddy,
> 
> Its not all short notes but all kinds of different types of shorts and performances in the shorts. Once you explore that subject deeper you will find how difficult it can be even to mock up the most simple line in case you want to get close to the real thing. I am a guy who is very considerate about the details in the work when mocking up things. Having said that there is no such thing as a fixed note length even if notated that way. It seems first to be easier but you are missing a lot of content in that regards if you ignore that fact. Some things can be even more difficult (maintaining clarity with clouding releases in fast passages etc etc.) Long notes are of course also not easy of course because you need to battle with certain types of issues like baked in performance swhich simply not match the desired content or simply with the very limited recorded true legato dynamic range or other things like tuning and timbre. Adagio pieces are also very difficult and a bit of their own "territory" or league. I would even go that far to say that it deserves a seperated sort of template with very foccused treatments only for that style.
> 
> A general tip which can help is to treat each line very carefully with a unique performance. And when I am speaking of unique I mean unique in everything. Also layering solo instruments very settle can help to goose and enrich the details. You need also to detune the lines quite a bit to create a better more realistic blend. Often what leads to more mediocre results is also that the strings in mocked up adagio pieces simply sound to even, to much in tune, too perfect in timing, they don´t swell really, they don´t breath like the real thing therefore. To fake that you need to meticously pay attention to things also like little decrescendos or other irregularities in tuning. Also most sample libraries simply don´t reach that very quite delicated ppp or even to niente dynamics which are part of these details. There is no general tip, it always depends for what sort of performance and source you are going for. Also try to search for patches which are rich in sound and match the general tone and vibe to the reference naturally or at least quite a bit. Spent time in researching what kind of sound naturally fit there without humiliating them with eq, additional reverbs etc. Is the piece maybe bowed in a very specific way? How do the violins sound? Do they have that lush sul tasto sound? Before even mocking up one bar spent time experimenting with all the libraries you have.



Thanks a lot for this in-depth advice.

Actually I'd really appreciate if you - with all your expertise would take a look at my Church-like hymn in this forum?

I'd really appreciate some advice on how to achieve a realistic adagio string sound and also on the orchestration/arrangement itself.

I want to learn from the best!


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 20, 2019)

mediumaevum said:


> Thanks a lot for this in-depth advice.
> 
> Actually I'd really appreciate if you - with all your expertise would take a look at my Church-like hymn in this forum?
> 
> ...



Sure I can do that.  Did you work with a reference for your piece?


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## mediumaevum (Aug 20, 2019)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Sure I can do that.  Did you work with a reference for your piece?


Not really. It is very difficult to find orchestrations of old hymns if they're not from Vaughan Williams, Holst or Finzi. But those are my main sources of inspiration.

To achieve that sound with samples is a difficult task.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 20, 2019)

mediumaevum said:


> Not really. It is very difficult to find orchestrations of old hymns if they're not from Vaughan Williams, Holst or Finzi. But those are my main sources of inspiration.
> 
> To achieve that sound with samples is a difficult task.



It has not to be the same but there are definitely pieces out there which you can and just my recommendation always use for a comparision because it helps you to translate their performance to your own choices for your own track better. It can also serve for mixing to see if the relative balance and loudness between the sections are right. Even if you balanced your template good chances are high that you misstreat your interpretation of your own music and a reference helps you because you see how real players would interprete a similiar situation. Real players listen to each other and balance them out naturally. And that is really important to understand. So I always tell the people I teach in private lessons that they always please load in their project a refrence track which is similiar in *vibe, genre, style and mood*. orchestral music is too complex as we can go and just work blindly on that. Even with a lot of experience references are always very important for objectivity. I will check out your track, not quite sure if I can make this week because I have yet to do some stuff.


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## sIR dORT (Aug 20, 2019)

Bravo. I am curious tho - how do you achieve such a good tutti sound in your mockups? What sections/registers do you give the most dynamic emphasis to, and what is your approach in general? I have had a really hard time making any tutti parts I write sound cohesive. It sounds like strings, brass, and woodwinds, not an orchestra.


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## JEPA (Aug 20, 2019)

congratulations, awesome work.

I noticed from the beginning that the long string phrases in the mockup don't have the micro nuances of the bow pressure of the real thing. That's a thing that makes it so difficult...
Your mockup is excellent! Another tipp could be to not open so wide the stereo spectrum, I think this kind of recordings were not extreme wide, I noticed this also.
And the multiple micro variations of the articulations of the cello are naturally super difficult to emulate... but wow! nice job!


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## pipedr (Aug 20, 2019)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Thanks buddy,
> 
> Its not all short notes but all kinds of different types of shorts and performances in the shorts. Once you explore that subject deeper you will find how difficult it can be even to mock up the most simple line in case you want to get close to the real thing. I am a guy who is very considerate about the details in the work when mocking up things. Having said that there is no such thing as a fixed note length even if notated that way. It seems first to be easier but you are missing a lot of content in that regards if you ignore that fact. Some things can be even more difficult (maintaining clarity with clouding releases in fast passages etc etc.) Long notes are of course also not easy of course because you need to battle with certain types of issues like baked in performance swhich simply not match the desired content or simply with the very limited recorded true legato dynamic range or other things like tuning and timbre. Adagio pieces are also very difficult and a bit of their own "territory" or league. I would even go that far to say that it deserves a seperated sort of template with very foccused treatments only for that style.
> 
> A general tip which can help is to treat each line very carefully with a unique performance. And when I am speaking of unique I mean unique in everything. Also layering solo instruments very settle can help to goose and enrich the details. You need also to detune the lines quite a bit to create a better more realistic blend. Often what leads to more mediocre results is also that the strings in mocked up adagio pieces simply sound to even, to much in tune, too perfect in timing, they don´t swell really, they don´t breath like the real thing therefore. To fake that you need to meticously pay attention to things also like little decrescendos or other irregularities in tuning. Also most sample libraries simply don´t reach that very quite delicated ppp or even to niente dynamics which are part of these details. There is no general tip, it always depends for what sort of performance and source you are going for. Also try to search for patches which are rich in sound and match the general tone and vibe to the reference naturally or at least quite a bit. Spent time in researching what kind of sound naturally fit there without humiliating them with eq, additional reverbs etc. Is the piece maybe bowed in a very specific way? How do the violins sound? Do they have that lush sul tasto sound? Before even mocking up one bar spent time experimenting with all the libraries you have.


Interested in your comments regarding baked in performance in sample libraries--I am not at your level, but I have come to respect that there are so many different ways to play a single note, let alone a phrase, let alone 16 players together approaching a piece on violins. To approach any specific piece, do you think one needs a cornucopia of specialty ensemble libraries, maybe like Afflatus? Or contextually supersampled individual instruments, like Emotional Violin, perhaps combined into ensembles (or more generally sampled individual instruments, like Dimension Strings or Kirk Hunter?)? Or modeled or phase aligned instruments with dynamic and vibrato control, like SWAM or SampleModeling, again combined into ensembles? What approach or combination do you favor?


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 20, 2019)

JEPA said:


> congratulations, awesome work.
> 
> I noticed from the beginning that the long string phrases in the mockup don't have the micro nuances of the bow pressure of the real thing. That's a thing that makes it so difficult...
> Your mockup is excellent! Another tipp could be to not open so wide the stereo spectrum, I think this kind of recordings were not extreme wide, I noticed this also.
> And the multiple micro variations of the articulations of the cello are naturally super difficult to emulate... but wow! nice job!


Completely agreed, but to clarify my mockup has the narrower stereo field.


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## JEPA (Aug 20, 2019)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Completely agreed, but to clarify my mockup has the narrower stereo field.


Beeing so I notice that the original is narrower than your mockup. But that is easy manageable, I think.


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## AndreBoulard (Aug 20, 2019)

this piece is awesome! also really great advises. i not sure how this is possible but if you do have a master class i would be interested for sure. i am new to realistic stuff and seeing this is possible with general library is nuts! do you use eqs and filters and stack of sound libraries? i am assuming theres a lot of instrument combination to make them sound this way.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 21, 2019)

JEPA said:


> Beeing so I notice that the original is narrower than your mockup. But that is easy manageable, I think.



I am sorry to say but my ears and my analysing tools tell me that the original is wider. I am very aware of that the original has a slight wider stereo image. I am not sure why you say its the other way around. *scratching my head*

Having said that: I deliberately chose to use a bit of a narrower stereo field because it sounds to me a bit to wide in the reference and referring to another recording like the telarc of the tschaikowsky overture seems to fit more in the ballpark of sounding more natural in that aspect with a more balanced ratio of mids vs side information. I am not sure if that makes sense to you. Other than that let me know if you have more questions.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 21, 2019)

AndreBoulard said:


> this piece is awesome! also really great advises. i not sure how this is possible but if you do have a master class i would be interested for sure. i am new to realistic stuff and seeing this is possible with general library is nuts! do you use eqs and filters and stack of sound libraries? i am assuming theres a lot of instrument combination to make them sound this way.


Yes, layering is one thing and eq can help treating problem zones or simply emerging different sounds together as well.


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## JEPA (Aug 21, 2019)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> I am sorry to say but my ears and my analysing tools tell me that the original is wider. I am very aware of that the original has a slight wider stereo image. I am not sure why you say its the other way around. *scratching my head*
> 
> Having said that: I deliberately chose to use a bit of a narrower stereo field because it sounds to me a bit to wide in the reference and referring to another recording like the telarc of the tschaikowsky overture seems to fit more in the ballpark of sounding more natural in that aspect with a more balanced ratio of mids vs side information. I am not sure if that makes sense to you. Other than that let me know if you have more questions.


I could be totally wrong! but that is what I hear home with non pro headphones. But I am sure I have heard the violins and violas (the higher section of the strings) covering mid left to center and not sooo wide to the left... maybe I am getting deaf


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 21, 2019)

JEPA said:


> I could be totally wrong! but that is what I hear home with non pro headphones. But I am sure I have heard the violins and violas (the higher section of the strings) covering mid left to center and not sooo wide to the left... maybe I am getting deaf



Hm, strange and maybe I am having deaf ears too after that couple of weeks  Which one is the reference for you?


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## JEPA (Aug 21, 2019)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Hm, strange and maybe I am having deaf ears too after that couple of weeks  Which one is the reference for you?


oh I gotta download them again, now I'm in studio but I think the one's named ending in B2 was the reference for me, the other ending in .mp3 was your mockup.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 21, 2019)

JEPA said:


> oh I gotta download them again, now I'm in studio but I think the one's named ending in B2 was the reference for me, the other ending in .mp3 was your mockup.



Well they both are mp3s here and both ending with that extension *.mp3. But the B2 actually is the mockup and that is probably where the confusion is.


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## JEPA (Aug 21, 2019)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Well they both are mp3s here and both ending with that extension *.mp3. But the B2 actually is the mockup and that is probably where the confusion is.


really? then I am really getting old!  or I'm confused because the cello was definitely showing more natural articulations as the mockup one...


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## JEPA (Aug 21, 2019)

I will download them again at the end of the day and hear them in studio, then I can give you a better feedback!


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## MartinH. (Aug 21, 2019)

JEPA said:


> I could be totally wrong! but that is what I hear home with non pro headphones. But I am sure I have heard the violins and violas (the higher section of the strings) covering mid left to center and not sooo wide to the left... maybe I am getting deaf



I think you're just legit confusing the two because the mockup is really THAT good! There's no shame in admitting you thought the mockup is the real one, it's the ultimate compliment you could give.

To me personally the mockup sounds both more pleasant and more "real" in the sense that it sounds more to me like I'd imagine a live performance to sound when I'm actually there to hear it. The original sounds much more like a "recording" to me. 

If I hadn't heard snippets of it before and you had mixed this mockup in with a couple of real recordings and asked me to pick out which one I think is the mockup, I'd probably just have picked the recording that I like the least. 

When I listened to the long version of the mockup for the first time I intentionally didn't look at the filenames first and thought "well surely this must be the reference track", then when I heard the actual reference track I remembered the differences in the stereo image and knew "well damn, that first one was the mockup after all... and it sounds better to me". 


Really outstanding and impressive work Alex!


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## JEPA (Aug 21, 2019)

MartinH. said:


> I think you're just legit confusing the two because the mockup is really THAT good! There's no shame in admitting you thought the mockup is the real one, it's the ultimate compliment you could give.


I'm not ashamed!  I'm pleased surprised and will asure with all my forces to hear in HIGH DEFINITION and then I will tell you if I am getting old...


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## JEPA (Aug 21, 2019)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Ok here is a very honest and brutal 1 on 1 against the live version. I can say the following: Unless you want to lose your mind, I simply would not advice anybody in the world to mock that up with samples. It´s hilarous challenging imo and almost every bar in that piece reminds me that there is no such thing as a common articulation system, where a normal "default configured" sample library patch can capture anywhere near descent any of that performance. In order to capture a glimpse of that you have to step back and make a total different roadmap and plan which has nothing to do with any common keyswitching or articulation based system at all.



also. Again, because of the cello, and the long phrases of the strings my opinion, my guess is that the first (1) audio the original reference is, and the second the mockup (some harsh accents difficult to evade from static samples). I don't know which of both is the B2 at the end of the name, but in case I am wrong, wonderful job Alexander, take my money and make me happy!  It's really amaaaazing


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 21, 2019)

Holy Jesus..here is the complete rendering of the whole suite. I need a few days to reflect everything and then polish some of the sections here and there and try out little additional things _*in order to make it perfect*_. I need an oxygen tent though..


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## Saxer (Aug 22, 2019)

Great work!

You really deserved a big cake!


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 23, 2019)

Saxer said:


> Great work!
> 
> You really deserved a big cake!




Hope the night wasn´t that long :D, oldschool good times commercial plus the theme. And I still buy their cakes from time to time, they are really awesome imo for an "out of the box" cake.


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## Gingerbread (Aug 23, 2019)

Very, very impressive. I would jump on any masterclass you made. There's lots of videos covering basics, but very few that cover advanced techniques. An in-depth masterclass would be worth just as much as a high-quality sample library to me.

Sorry for the novice question, but I'm curious about detuning. Could you explain that a little further? Does it mean (for example) layering two different violin patches on top of each other, and slightly using pitchbend automation on one of them in certain places?


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## Consona (Aug 24, 2019)

Apart from some few moments here and there, this sounds sooo clooose to a live performance, man!!! Really impressive!

You should absolutely make some tutorials.

Could you provide a list of libraries you used?


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 29, 2019)

Gingerbread said:


> Very, very impressive. I would jump on any masterclass you made. There's lots of videos covering basics, but very few that cover advanced techniques. An in-depth masterclass would be worth just as much as a high-quality sample library to me.
> 
> Sorry for the novice question, but I'm curious about detuning. Could you explain that a little further? Does it mean (for example) layering two different violin patches on top of each other, and slightly using pitchbend automation on one of them in certain places?



No automation, no pitchbend. no. I detune all the instruments in all of their ranges manually and have additional CCs to ride a individual tuning performance in realtime depending on what kind of performance I have to replicate.



Consona said:


> Apart from some few moments here and there, this sounds sooo clooose to a live performance, man!!! Really impressive!
> 
> You should absolutely make some tutorials.
> 
> Could you provide a list of libraries you used?


Here is the list:
Berlin Strings
Symphonic Sphere
Spitfire Chamber Strings
Spitfire Symphonic Strings
8dio Agitato
Fluid Shorts

Berlin Woodwinds (Legacy + Revive)
Cinesamples Hollywood Winds

Cinesamples Percussion
Cinesamples Harp
Spitfire Skaila Kanga Harp
Spitfire Joby Burgess Percussion

Cinematic Studio Brass
Spitfire Symphonic Brass
Berlin Brass
Sample Modeling Brass

Metropolis Ark 1,3,4


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## Consona (Aug 29, 2019)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Here is the list:
> Berlin Strings
> Symphonic Sphere
> Spitfire Chamber Strings
> ...


What? You mix all those libraries to make a cohesive sounding orchestra? Wow. That's mental.  And thank you. 

A walkthrough would be really interesting. Seeing how are all those individual parts put together. It's amazing.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 29, 2019)

Consona said:


> What? You mix all those libraries to make a cohesive sounding orchestra? Wow. That's mental.  And thank you.
> 
> A walkthrough would be really interesting. Seeing how are all those individual parts put together. It's amazing.



Yes, you can do that, I simply say this: you can mix almost everything together, almost everything. It takes some thoughts, and work. I am thinking about that class to do. I have yet to smash my head about the structure of that class of course and some technical things. Thanks also for the heads up and words in the spitfire thread. I appreciate that a lot.


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## Consona (Aug 29, 2019)

@AlexanderSchiborr Sorry for bothering you about the class in like every post, but man, your mock ups are so superb. 

(Just an hour ago, I was listening to Wrath of Khan soundtrack, thinking about something else, and suddently saying to myself, wow, this strings line could have been programmed way tighter :dodgy:, Alexander's mock-ups sound better, then realizing it's a fricking live recording... I kid you not.  And maybe that shows I suck at listening to things... Hehe.)

You are basically saying that I don't have to regret any buy since there's a huge chance all those things can work together to make a cohesive orchestra and can be useful and complement each other; and you are showing it's possible to program stuff that captures the emotion, intent and just do what we want from it, to sound like a real performance one can show to the world without feeling awkward that there's some big compromise about the whole thing.

Like that pompous part from 5:14 onward, my god, that sounds so lively, vivid and energetic, no way it's samples!  I know I'm not comparing it to the real thing, which always shows some deficiencies, but... considering what we hear is chopped up pieces of some separately recorded semi-performances-at-best put together to emulate a room full of highly trained and skilled musicians. Holy Effin Wow.


I was asking about the libraries since I'm still searching for one more brass lib to make that section better, otherwise I have everything covered. I only have CineBrass Core+Pro and sometimes I feel I need something little playable. I'm still waiting for Junkie Brass, since Tom said he wants to make it super playable, so that gives me time to decide what's the best choice. I don't want to spend any more money beside that one lib. I think now all I need to do is perfect my skills with CS2, Adagio, CineWinds, Auddict Winds, CinePerc and some various smaller Fluffy, Embertone and Spitfire stuff. Which should be way more than enough for my needs.

Can't wait for any new stuff from you! Cheers!


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## Geocranium (Sep 6, 2019)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> No automation, no pitchbend. no. I detune all the instruments in all of their ranges manually and have additional CCs to ride a individual tuning performance in realtime depending on what kind of performance I have to replicate.



Would love to hear some more about this process. It'd be interesting to hear an A/B comparison of a line before and after detuning. Is this something that's done in a Kontakt script?


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## jononotbono (Sep 8, 2019)

Amazing work man.

Yes, I’d definitely be up for watching some kind of programming tutorial if you ever decided to do one! This must have aged you at least 10 years attempting this 😂


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