# Real film composers only use Digital Performer!



## dcoscina (Jul 9, 2011)

Ha! Just kidding! I thought a provocative subject would get people to read my thread. Actually what I really mean to say is that given the number of Hollywood heavyweights that use DP, but how few others do (prosumers for example), I wonder if it's use simply as a sketch tool where real orchestras will eventually be used. Think about it- Michael Giacchino, Danny Elfman, Don Davis, Alexandre Desplat, Dario Marionelli, Elliot Goldenthal and more guys whose names escape me, all use DP but don't do a lot of electronic work in their scores- they are mostly acoustic by nature. so I was wondering if that is because DP doesn't include a lot of wowee-zowee plug-ins and sounds so it's merely used as a sequencer that will eventually be replaced by real musicians. 

I know John Powell and Gabriel Yared (among others) use Logic, and Hans Zimmer + James Newton Howard use Cubase so this is obviously a generalization but it is curious the % of big name composers who use DP. thoughts?


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## Ed (Jul 9, 2011)

I'd use it if it was PC :D I saw someone using it a while back that made me love the features I saw. Plugins like Riverrun for example.

Then again i dont know if I would need it to handle audio the way Cubase does in terms of the way i use it.

Then again Im PC and aint changing so it doesn't matter anyway


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## dcoscina (Jul 9, 2011)

I got Cubase 6 and I'm on it right now using Halion 4. Nice although it took me an hour to figure how to set up busses for Halion 4...duhhhhhh. Logic has its own way to do it as does DP. 

There are some tasty things Cubase can do although I'm so damned fast at DP I probably will never abandon it. The customizable click settings are super sweet and I used them to the hilt on that last film project. I honestly don't know how anyone uses Logic with its stupid built-in pre-roll for film when you have to change meter or tempi and you want to start recording right at the new section....

anyhow, Cubase rocks. but DP is killer for film scoring.


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## whinecellar (Jul 9, 2011)

dcoscina @ Sat Jul 09 said:


> I honestly don't know how anyone uses Logic with its stupid built-in pre-roll for film when you have to change meter or tempi and you want to start recording right at the new section....



Hey David,

You do know you can disable that? It's in File > Project Settings > Audio. Just uncheck "Playback Preroll." Hope that helps 

I do envy some of DP's score-centric features, but Logic's got a whole slew of its own advantages...

Cheers!


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## gsilbers (Jul 9, 2011)

DP has chunks which lets u have a sequence within a sequence. very powerful.
folder tracks in logic suk ass. hopefully logic x will have better folder tracks.

also, it depends on where those pros went to school. in berklee for example its mandatory to buy DP for filmscoring and logic for synthesis and PT for music production/engineering. 

it sticks with u after that cause its what u learned.


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## dcoscina (Jul 9, 2011)

whinecellar @ Sat Jul 09 said:


> dcoscina @ Sat Jul 09 said:
> 
> 
> > I honestly don't know how anyone uses Logic with its stupid built-in pre-roll for film when you have to change meter or tempi and you want to start recording right at the new section....
> ...



Tried it, still get that 1 bar lead in with the material before the record point. It's really inane because Cubase, PT, DP, Studio 1, even Sonar do NOT do this. Why on earth would Apple do this? I know this wasn't around in NOtator SL 3.1 because I used that for years on my ST. 

And yeah, the Chunks and track folders are awesome! If I had a couple suggestions for improvements in DP I would say allow more scalable views because it's a little hard on the ol' eyes. Also, the controller lanes would benefit from larger lines for velocity. Once again, hard to grab those suckers compared to PT and Cubase. Aside from that, stellar program. I also like V-rack feature too!


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## wst3 (Jul 10, 2011)

I think DP is absolutely brilliant, and if they ever ported it to Windoze I'd be using it instantly! I think your observation is interesting, but I think there may be a different cause generating the effect... DP is the most seamless, easy to use environment I've seen for scoring for film - whether the result will be electronic or a written score. It just works!

I use Sonar, and I've used Cubase, Logic, and my personal favorite, Bars&Pipes Professional. I have also used earlier versions of PT, and perhaps someday I'll take another look. Maybe.

Of the bunch I suppose Sonar remains my favorite all around platform. I can use it for any application from audio multi-track style recording and mixing to all virtual composition. No other platform, that I've used, is as flexible.

That doesn't mean that Sonar could not use some help in every area - my biggest frustrations today are (1) only one layer of folders - when doing sound design that's a serious limitation, (2) an insanely lame tempo map tool that needs to be updated, and (3) more speed - ok, I say that with every release - I'm pathetic.

I just installed Sonar X1 this weekend. I am really impressed with the workflow improvements - well, frustrated as I try to find stuff that used to be obvious<G>, but overall I do have to offer congrats, the UI and workflow are greatly improved.

Performance is also improved.

Now get me a work-able tempo map and folder folders and I'll be much happier...


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## Ashermusic (Jul 10, 2011)

dcoscina @ Sat Jul 09 said:


> whinecellar @ Sat Jul 09 said:
> 
> 
> > dcoscina @ Sat Jul 09 said:
> ...



Go to the Project Settings > Recording and change the Count-in to none. (see pic)

There is a lot I could say about this but instead I will say it thusly:

DP is a great app for film/TV scoring which is why a lot of film/TV composers use it.

Cubase is a great app for film/TV scoring which is why a lot of film/TV composers use it.

Logic Pro is a great app for film/TV scoring which is why a lot of film/TV composers use it.

They all have pros and cons and they all require to to know the program well to use them efficiently.


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## windshore (Jul 10, 2011)

You know if you you're looking for a count in for the new tempo, it sounds like a PITA but you can record a bar or 2 of click in your new tempo and slide it over to before your starting point. 

It's actually very fast if you set up a couple of shortcuts...


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## dcoscina (Jul 10, 2011)

Thanks Jay for the picture but by doing this, one has no count-in which is kind of counterproductive when the whole point is to hear the new tempo before recording- or new meter although I find that less problematic with Logic as I can adjust meter myself even in 4/4 and go back and change the time sig afterwards to line things up...

My question is why doesn't Logic have a count-in that does not play the material before the point of recording? I know sometimes having the pre-roll is helpful in keeping a sense of continuity and obviously LOTS of pros have worked around this (or else just played their cues in a single tempo!). It just seems odd when every other DAW has that independent click count off that doesn't preface the prior material....


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## Ashermusic (Jul 10, 2011)

dcoscina @ Sun Jul 10 said:


> Thanks Jay for the picture but by doing this, one has no count-in which is kind of counterproductive when the whole point is to hear the new tempo before recording- or new meter although I find that less problematic with Logic as I can adjust meter myself even in 4/4 and go back and change the time sig afterwards to line things up...
> 
> My question is why doesn't Logic have a count-in that does not play the material before the point of recording? I know sometimes having the pre-roll is helpful in keeping a sense of continuity and obviously LOTS of pros have worked around this (or else just played their cues in a single tempo!). It just seems odd when every other DAW has that independent click count off that doesn't preface the prior material....



There have always been a lot of things Logic would do that no other app would do and then seemingly basic stuff it would not and this is one of them.

When it was made by Emagic I used to say that their motto was, "The impossible we do easily. The basic will take a little longer.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 10, 2011)

I think the reason people use a particular sequencer mostly boils down to being facile with it, and who wants to learn another complete system? They're all fairly arcane in their own ways. Once you get good at one, you tend to stick with it.


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## Andrew Aversa (Jul 10, 2011)

I don't have much to add except that Howard Shore endorses DP as well.


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## JJP (Jul 11, 2011)

zircon_st @ Sun Jul 10 said:


> I don't have much to add except that Howard Shore endorses DP as well.



Be careful of those types of endorsements. There is sometimes a tit for tat deal.


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## dcoscina (Jul 11, 2011)

Shore may endorse DP but still writes and orchestrates everything on paper. I think his assistants use it more than he does.


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## reddognoyz (Jul 11, 2011)

I've used DP for about 26 years. My first version required me to remove the system floppy from my Mac and insert the DP disc occasionally. I have issues with it for sure, and I think Logic is cool, I just know DP so well that I'm sticking with it. 95% of my work is scoring and it really excels in that regard. I think it stems from the very birth of the program, which was a linear concept as opposed to Logic which, in my mind, was spawned as a "create a block and repeat" songwriting sort of tool. my 2 ¢


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## Mahlon (Jul 11, 2011)

wst3 @ Sun Jul 10 said:


> That doesn't mean that Sonar could not use some help in every area - my biggest frustrations today are (1) only one layer of folders - when doing sound design that's a serious limitation, (2) an insanely lame tempo map tool that needs to be updated, and (3) more speed - ok, I say that with every release - I'm pathetic.
> 
> I just installed Sonar X1 this weekend. I am really impressed with the workflow improvements - well, frustrated as I try to find stuff that used to be obvious<G>, but overall I do have to offer congrats, the UI and workflow are greatly improved.
> 
> ...



Yeah, to me Sonar lends itself to quick ergonomics. Like you say, there are a few major things that need to be updated, the tempo map being the main on my list, too. Still, I'm lightning fast with the interface. Looking into Cubase now as an alternative, but like everyone else says, once you learn one package, it's hard to want to learn another because so much of the basics are the same.

Mahlon


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## dcoscina (Jul 11, 2011)

Or you could be like me and not know any one of the DAWs well....I have like ADDAW. I dabble with all of them but luckily that last film project I was doing made me stick with DP for the most part. A couple cues in Logic and I think one in Cubase 6...but for the most part, DP7 ruled.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 11, 2011)

dcoscina @ Mon Jul 11 said:


> Or you could be like me and not know any one of the DAWs well....I have like ADDAW. I dabble with all of them but luckily that last film project I was doing made me stick with DP for the most part. A couple cues in Logic and I think one in Cubase 6...but for the most part, DP7 ruled.



I think having at least a passing acquaintance with all of them is great. I know DP and Pro Tools a bit, my main platform is Cubase. Logic I know not.


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## JonFairhurst (Jul 11, 2011)

I recently upgraded to Sonar X1. I like it!

And, yes, the tempo thing needs improvements. One thing I'd like to be able to do is to save a few tempo maps that I can return to. I might play in the parts with a slow, even tempo. I might check how it sounds with a faster, even tempo. But the final result will probably have a varying tempo. I might want to go to my slow tempo again to play in the next part, but I don't want to lose my tempo editing to do it.

And wouldn't it be cool to lock down hits to a given time location. Between hits, the tempo would act like the proverbial balloon. Push it faster on one side and it will slow down on the other side to maintain the hit point.

We can all dream...


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## dasindevin (Jul 11, 2011)

i bounced between PT, Logic and DP for a while before winding up on cubase 

Schooling definitely can play a factor, I was berklee mp&e and songwriting... so it was helpful to get familiar with a good few DAWs before settling somewhere entirely different  

there are things i really do miss about DP, but mostly I am quite happy to logic free


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## IFM (Jul 12, 2011)

DP is currently my 2nd favorite after Logic. They have made vast improvements on it but it still irks me that there is no MUTE for individual notes, only the entire track...drives me crazy when having splitting up string parts.


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## Dracarys (Jul 12, 2011)

All this Logic talk, is making me miss my beloved Logic.


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## dcoscina (Jul 12, 2011)

I actually went on DP last night and was using Halion 4 in 64 bit mode with VE PRO and it worked BETTER than the 32 bit Halion 4 inside DP (as a MAS instrument). Pretty dang impressive. I don't what I love more- DP or VE PRO. Regardless, navigating around in DP was as natural as breathing for me. Every other DAW I have some work flow stumbling blocks with.


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## Mahlon (Jul 14, 2011)

Does anyone suspect or surmise that DP may one day be released for Windows? I did a google but didn't return useful results.

Mahlon


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## dcoscina (Jul 14, 2011)

If I were back on PC, I'd probably use Sonar or Cubase.  Probably Cubase 6 or PT9 since I own both and they are bi-platform.


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## studioj (Jul 14, 2011)

> Does anyone suspect or surmise that DP may one day be released for Windows? I did a google but didn't return useful results.



No it won't happen... 

I was a DP to Logic convert many years ago (right around DP3 - DP4) and through the years I've checked out the updates but have never been able to switch back. Among some other things the inability to mute individual MIDI notes was a deal breaker for me also. I was a DP power user but I was able to get the same things done in logic so much faster for the most part. DP7 is great, but still didn't do it for me.


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## JohnG (Jul 14, 2011)

I think pertinent to the discussion is a recent RAND study, which has revealed that the wives / girlfriends / husbands / boyfriends of DP users are 50% better looking than for users of any other DAW.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 14, 2011)

JohnG @ Thu Jul 14 said:


> I think pertinent to the discussion is a recent RAND study, which has revealed that the wives / girlfriends / husbands / boyfriends of DP users are 50% better looking than for users of any other DAW.



they are also 50% more delusional


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## whinecellar (Jul 14, 2011)

As of John & Jay's posts, this thread just became useful and/or relevant


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## jasonmrose (Jul 30, 2011)

dcoscina @ Mon Jul 11 said:


> Or you could be like me and not know any one of the DAWs well....I have like ADDAW. I dabble with all of them but luckily that last film project I was doing made me stick with DP for the most part. A couple cues in Logic and I think one in Cubase 6...but for the most part, DP7 ruled.



I'm a long time Logic user here... Never used DP. But I'd love to know what makes it better then Logic for scoring...in your opinion.

Sometimes logic gets on my nerves! :?


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## chimuelo (Jul 30, 2011)

Snooty-O-1
ProFools
Spubase
Blonar
ETragic
Weaper
Goo-endo
FL Snooty-O
Greasin'
Barely Ableton Jive
Queeramix
Scamplitude
BIAS Weak
PG Music Power Cracks

DP must be professional only, as I can't degrade it's name as easily as other DAW's that all sound different from each other.
Weaper sounds the best to me because it doesn't nullify and costs 50 bucks....


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## tripit (Jul 30, 2011)

studioj @ Thu Jul 14 said:


> > Does anyone suspect or surmise that DP may one day be released for Windows? I did a google but didn't return useful results.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I went the other way. After SVP died, I tried Logic (around v3) and hated the illogic layout. Was too different than SVP and PT - which I've used since the dawn of time. 
After scoring my first film in Logic, I switched to DP, which I found to be much more intuitive and closer to SVP not to mention that it worked with DAE way better then Logic ever did. 
The conductor track (using takes and the ability to work tempos) has been a lifesaver. I can refigure tempo and timing on tracks so easily when things get changed. Also, I can see a lot more tracks at once on the screen. 

And like John mentioned, I'm 50% percent better looking because of it. Just ask my wife.


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## IFM (Jul 31, 2011)

tripit @ Sat Jul 30 said:


> studioj @ Thu Jul 14 said:
> 
> 
> > I went the other way. After SVP died, I tried Logic (around v3) and hated the illogic layout. Was too different than SVP and PT - which I've used since the dawn of time.
> ...



Perhaps true on much earlier versions of Logic (which is why I was on DP for some time) but these days Logic is way beyond. I could nit pick DP too for having to print all VIs before a bounce...really? At least that changed. DP still remains my 2nd favorite and they are getting there.

Chris


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## SvK (Jul 31, 2011)

the operative word missing from this thread's headline is "old".

Insert the word "old" between the words "Real" and "Composers" and then you've nailed it!



SvK


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## dcoscina (Jul 31, 2011)

SvK @ Sun Jul 31 said:


> the operative word missing from this thread's headline is "old".
> 
> Insert the word "old" between the words "Real" and "Composers" and then you've nailed it!
> 
> ...



Well it ain't as sexy looking as Logic 9 (remember I have that, Cubase 6, PT9, and Studio 1 Pro too!) but none of those mo-fo programs can do customizable click tracks like DP, nor can you burn in streamers and pops in Logic or those other programs. You need a separate app to do that. Now I know it might seem arbitrary but for anyone still doing mock ups and then conducting their cue in front of real guys and gals, it does help . Oh and it looks super cool when you're demoing a cue for a director.

I'm sure John G could weigh in on some more awesome features of DP too.

Is this going to stop me from upgrading to Logic X when it comes out? Probably not.


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## JohnG (Jul 31, 2011)

I have heard good and bad music produced by people with just about every popular DAW software. David's the only composer I know who seems conversant with such a range of DAWs. Plus I like his music and thinking generally, so I place quite a bit of weight on what he says. 

I use a lot of odd meters, and switch them around as well, so that 7/8 can be 3 + 4 or 4 + 3, for example. DP allows one to change the clicks very quickly and customise them as much as desired, which I find useful.

I'd like to see MOTU add the ability to mute midi information. DP's folders and solo feature can mimic this, but the mute function would be preferable. Obviously, it will be welcome when DP goes 64 bit, but even that has been obviated by the ease with which it integrates with 64 bit VE Pro.


I don't quite understand the level of heat expressed in some of these discussions, since often the evangelists of one DAW are either way out of date with features of competing software, or entirely ignorant of them. I'm just grateful that the stuff actually works.

Plus, I appreciate having a wife who's so much better looking than any Logic user's.


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## germancomponist (Jul 31, 2011)

JohnG @ Sun Jul 31 said:


> Plus, I appreciate having a wife who's so much better looking than any Logic user's.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 31, 2011)

JohnG @ Sun Jul 31 said:


> I have heard good and bad music produced by people with just about every popular DAW software. David's the only composer I know who seems conversant with such a range of DAWs. Plus I like his music and thinking generally, so I place quite a bit of weight on what he says.
> 
> I use a lot of odd meters, and switch them around as well, so that 7/8 can be 3 + 4 or 4 + 3, for example. DP allows one to change the clicks very quickly and customise them as much as desired, which I find useful.
> 
> ...



I totally agree, it is silly. They are just tools. I happen to be a Logic guy who has written books on it but if someone on another app called me and said, "Jay, I have a bunch of good paying orchestration work for you but you need to use (fill in the app), I would buy it and learn it so fast your head would spin around like Linda Blair's in "The Exorcist."

I do however, on behalf of my wife, take issue with that last statement. And btw, your wife is leaving you. :twisted:


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## johnhamilton (Jul 31, 2011)

I used cubase 4 then went onto protools then to ableton strangely enough, I love all depending on what I'm actually doing!


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## bdr (Jul 31, 2011)

Dragonwind @ Sun Jul 31 said:


> tripit @ Sat Jul 30 said:
> 
> 
> > studioj @ Thu Jul 14 said:
> ...



I'm not 100% sure because I've never tried it but I think since DP brought in pre-rendering you can now bounce without printing.

Or maybe I dreamt it.


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## jasonmrose (Jul 31, 2011)

JohnG @ Sun Jul 31 said:


> Plus, I appreciate having a wife who's so much better looking than any Logic user's.



As a single guy...that's by far the best argument I've heard so far! How fast can I get a copy of DP?? Lol! :wink:


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## robh (Jul 31, 2011)

jasonmrose @ Sun Jul 31 said:


> JohnG @ Sun Jul 31 said:
> 
> 
> > Plus, I appreciate having a wife who's so much better looking than any Logic user's.
> ...


Logic will be better then. Check out this hidden feature in Logic 9

 

Rob


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## Mike Greene (Jul 31, 2011)

Rob, be careful with that "Select Pretty Wife" feature. At first I was really happy . . . until I realized that the Mute button has no effect on it! What's worse, now the "Solo" button is permanently on. So not only can't you mute her, but that's *all* you get to hear! Permanently!

Not only that, "Select Additional Girlfriends" now seems to be completely disabled! Yep, completely disabled. Don't get me wrong, I could understand limiting us to three or four additional girlfriends. But none??? Wussup with that???

Seriously, it's gotta be a woman that wrote this update.


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## johnhamilton (Aug 1, 2011)

Mike Greene @ Mon 01 Aug said:


> Not only that, "Select Additional Girlfriends" now.



You've lost me, what's a girlfriend?


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## ChrisAxia (Aug 1, 2011)

Mike Greene @ Mon Aug 01 said:


> Rob, be careful with that "Select Pretty Wife" feature. At first I was really happy . . . until I realized that the Mute button has no effect on it! What's worse, now the "Solo" button is permanently on. So not only can't you mute her, but that's *all* you get to hear! Permanently!
> 
> Not only that, "Select Additional Girlfriends" now seems to be completely disabled! Yep, completely disabled. Don't get me wrong, I could understand limiting us to three or four additional girlfriends. But none??? Wussup with that???
> 
> Seriously, it's gotta be a woman that wrote this update.



Hahaha. Brilliant! I must be one of the lucky ones who clicked on "Select Pretty Wife" but the solo feature you mention was fortunately not activated on mine. Phew!! I'm very lucky considering I don't own DP....

~C


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## robh (Aug 1, 2011)

Mike Greene @ Sun Jul 31 said:


> Rob, be careful with that "Select Pretty Wife" feature. At first I was really happy . . . until I realized that the Mute button has no effect on it! What's worse, now the "Solo" button is permanently on. So not only can't you mute her, but that's *all* you get to hear! Permanently!
> 
> Not only that, "Select Additional Girlfriends" now seems to be completely disabled! Yep, completely disabled. Don't get me wrong, I could understand limiting us to three or four additional girlfriends. But none??? Wussup with that???
> 
> Seriously, it's gotta be a woman that wrote this update.


Mike, "Select Additional Girlfriends" is permanently disabled in Logic once you select the pretty wife. And the EULA prohibits hacking the code to re-enable it.

But you have to admit, laying down bed tracks always gives pleasing results! 


Rob


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## dcoscina (Aug 1, 2011)

I'm glad people are taking the spirit of this thread well. It's become very amusing indeed. 

Now how about those benefits of Pro Tools 9 and Cubase 6?


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## SvK (Aug 1, 2011)

dcoscina,

All jokes aside DP is a wonderful DAW......im envious of "chunks".

best,
SvK


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## jasonmrose (Aug 1, 2011)

The advantages of Pro Tools 9? Clients!

The advantages of Cubase 6? The Hanz Zimmer button. It's a kind of 'melody exciter'.

One of these days they'll come out with a James Horner button...You write one score, and you can automatically transfer it to all of your new movies with one simple click!

James - if you're on here - I'm totally kidding! Well...kind of!

Lol! :wink:


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## johnhamilton (Aug 1, 2011)

Cough a beautiful mind cough bicentennial man


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