# Is the Albion bundle redundant if i have Spitfire Symphonic Orchestra and Komplete11?



## Goldie Zwecker (Feb 2, 2017)

I recently got more into composing with orchestral stuff. Not as a profession but more because i love it, love playing with those sounds and textures and fascinated and having fun learning how to "mock up" orchestral stuff. I usually make music with my analog synths, but working with samples is also great. Besides orchestral they are also great addition for indie and pop music. 

Anyway, i recently got the new Spitfire Symphonic Orchestra which includes the symphonic strings, symphonic brass, symphonic woodwinds and Masse - and i also got the spitfire chamber strings library which sounds just awesome!
They are excellent libraries that give me individual sections and solo instruments (apart from the string libraries, that is), and masse gives a touch of some orchestral combinations. 
But, as detailed as these libraries are it seems they are less for "sparking" ideas and giving you cues to start with - and more for serious and meticulous orchestral work. 

Before i bought this bundle i listened A LOT to all the demos of the 5 Albion volumes and each sounds great!! It seems these two bundles will work great together because they were recorded in the same place, have similar GUI etc. And no, i can't point on a specific Albion library that i think is better than the others. Tundra is as special as Albion one -Albion iceni is also special etc. It makes sense as a bundle. 

What they can give me in addition to the BML orchestral stuff is percussion, loops, textures, cues, and in the orchestral department - some unique articulations and techniques the BML doesn't have, as well as unisons and octaves. Seems to work the other way around as well. You can't do everything just with the Albions. 

So why i hesitate? Because i also own:
1. Omnisphere 2
2. Komplete Ultimate 11

Omnisphere also goes for an approach of mangling samples in a synth engine, taking it thru filters, fx, granular etc etc. It also has lots of loops and arppegiated stuff. 
I don't know if this makes the brunnel loops and eDNA redundant. 

As for Komplete Ultimate 11 - it has lots of cinematic stuff. For example Action strikes with all its orchestral percussion loops, HIT & RISE with its swells and hits, Damage - which also gives cinematic rhythmic loops, Evolution, Evolution mutations, Evolution mutations 2, Action strings, Emotive strings, Kinetic metal etc etc. 

And on the other hand - each time i listen to the Albion walkthru's - i'm impressed. 

So my questions is do you find it excessive and overkill to have the BML range, and Komplete Ultimate 11, and Omnisphere 2 and add the Albions?


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Feb 2, 2017)

Absolutely not redundant.

Albion bundle has many stuff you don't have on SSO (Especially III, IV, V).


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## JohnG (Feb 2, 2017)

Goldie Zwecker said:


> Not as a profession but more because i love it



...in other words, you're doomed!

Only some of the Albion series is redundant; I'm not sure what the percentage is. I have Albion III, IV, and V and I am struggling to think of things that are exactly the same. Certainly there are some concepts, like low strings, that are the same, but they don't sound exactly the same to me.

For full disclosure, I really like to have a huge palette of string sounds, so perhaps I am too much of a gourmand to be objective.

I don't have Komplete ultimate but I have quite a few Kontakt instruments and Omni and, to answer your question, I don't find it too much.


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## Goldie Zwecker (Feb 2, 2017)

Gabriel Oliveira said:


> Absolutely not redundant.
> 
> Albion bundle has many stuff you don't have on SSO (Especially III, IV, V).


I'm sure compared to Spitfire Symphonic Orchestra, Albions have a lot to offer when it comes to percussion, pads, loops etc. That's why i also asked how do the Albions stack up to my combination of Spitfire Symphonic Orchestra - and Omnisphere 2 and Komplete Ultimate 11 (with all the percussion and cinematic stuff).


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## JohnG (Feb 2, 2017)

Hi Goldie -- I think Gabriel is broadly correct but it is a serious investment, not only of money but of time to learn the libraries, disk space, working up familiarity or including in one's template -- all that. So I sympathise with your desire for more information.

The most accurate way to satisfy yourself on this point is to look to the specific patch lists on Spitfire's website. You can see there that the Albion series includes combinations of instruments -- such as Albion III low woodwinds, for example, that are not available (completely anyway) in the normal symphonic library or in a typical symphony orchestra for that matter, unless you have a heck of a large budget. 

Synths

As far as synths, honestly with what you already have there is not a lot you can't produce, if you know how to use them in detail and have the time / patience to really get under the hood with Absynth, Reactor -- all that comes with the NI world and Omni of course, which is its own almost endless playground.

Albion Appeal

For me, the allure of the Albions is much more on the orchestral / "natural sounds" side, even though I do like some of the crunchy synthetic stuff as well. Although theoretically you could reproduce some of what is in the Albions with the orchestral samples, it would be quite a challenge in many cases, and in other cases, impossible. To stay with the example above -- Albion III low winds -- they are not performed the same way as in the symphonic samples. It's a larger ensemble doing something musically very different from simply sounding a pitch. The result is that, even if you had individual samples of each instrument in that group, it wouldn't have the same sonic effect.

Homework

If you are going to spend that much money, you owe it to yourself to make a pot of tea or coffee or something and sit through the "walkthrough" videos of each library. It's a big effort to get one's arms around that much material.

Good luck either way.

Kind regards,

John


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Feb 2, 2017)

Goldie Zwecker said:


> That's why i also asked how do the Albions stack up to my combination of Spitfire Symphonic Orchestra - and Omnisphere 2 and Komplete Ultimate 11 (with all the percussion and cinematic stuff).



Yea, still not redundant. 

Omni and Komplete doesn't have 38 wide violins (V), 24 cellos (III) or 2 tubas+2 cimbassi+2 contra bass bones+3 bass bones (III).

And much more.


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## jacobthestupendous (Feb 2, 2017)

You have a very decent start already, and like John said, there's not _too much_ you can't accomplish with what you've already got. There are a few distinct advantages to adding the Albions to your war chest though:

Action Strikes and Damage is a good start to a cinematic percussion collection, but layering often is the name of the game, and it's always better to have lots of additional options

The sections recorded such as they are in the Albions can make a handy shortcut to decently orchestrated sections that otherwise would take a fair bit of effort to execute with individual sections. Even if you don't need the orchestration help, layering is often the name of the game, and adding layers, particularly with strings, can often add sweetness and fullness to your recording
I'd probably say that the Albions' synth content is my least frequently used, buy your mileage may vary. You probably could accomplish a lot with what you have to what's on offer here, but unless you're a synthesis ninja, it would take a tremendous effort
I've not heard anything else out there like Albion IV or V


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## Goldie Zwecker (Feb 2, 2017)

JohnG said:


> If you are going to spend that much money, you owe it to yourself to make a pot of tea or coffee or something and sit through the "walkthrough" videos of each library. It's a big effort to get one's arms around that much material.



That's exactly what i've been doing in the last couple of weeks - which is why i'm hooked 
When i was debating whther to go for the Albions or the SSO - people said it's far better going for the SSO since if i'd want to really compose with individual sections i won't be able to do that with the Albions. Now i see it also works the other way around...
Clever guys over there in Sptifire.


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## JohnG (Feb 2, 2017)

Goldie Zwecker said:


> which is why i'm hooked



no kidding

same here


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Feb 2, 2017)

There's lots of material in the Albions, but I think you should really take the time to get familiar with the content.
Personally, I would probably prefer looking into Albion IV and V separately. Those two are truly unique and offer material that you couldn't put together yourself with other libraries. The other question is whether you actually need these types of sounds.

The other three Albions IMO are more redundant if you already have a full, high quality orchestra like SSO. Sure, there's things here and there that aren't part of a traditional orchestra (sackbuts), some interesting combinations (low woods in Albion ONE), all the sound design content (that personally I don't use much) etc., but the question is: does it really matter? To me, a lot of it is just nuance. Which is great to have, but the answer to the question whether it justifies a large investment is an individual one.


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## Goldie Zwecker (Feb 2, 2017)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> There's lots of material in the Albions, but I think you should really take the time to get familiar with the content.
> Personally, I would probably prefer looking into Albion IV and V separately. Those two are truly unique and offer material that you couldn't put together yourself with other libraries. The other question is whether you actually need these types of sounds.
> 
> The other three Albions IMO are more redundant if you already have a full, high quality orchestra like SSO. Sure, there's things here and there that aren't part of a traditional orchestra (sackbuts), some interesting combinations (low woods in Albion ONE), all the sound design content (that personally I don't use much) etc., but the question is: does it really matter? To me, a lot of it is just nuance. Which is great to have, but the answer to the question whether it justifies a large investment is an individual one.


Question is not only about those special or esoteric articulations - but also about the "regular' ones. 
For example if i want to play a melodic line with some octave spread strings containing basses, cellos, violas etc - right now to achieve that i need to open a few instances of Kontakt or create a multi, load the individual sections, duplicate the midi files, adjust the mic positions for all instances etc - while with albion you just load up a "strings lo" or "strings hi" which are not overdubbed recordings but a recording of this actual ensemble. 
On the other hand if i want the freedom of having only the basses and cellos doing some spicatto melodic line and want to add violas doing some tremolo while the string section is playing a legato line - that's where a fully featured orchestral collection such as Spitfire Symphonic Orchestra come in handy.


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## Ron Kords (Feb 3, 2017)

Hi,

I recently got SSO but am still drawn in to using Albion when I'm in a hurry - i.e. 'can you get us a demo in 2 hours type request'....(rarely ends well but that's another story) 

The pre-mixed sections are really useful and a great time saver - particularly where it's not a prominent part.

Masse (you should have this if you have full SSO) does a similar thing but doesn't cover as much and is more about large scale orchestration....


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## Musicam (Feb 3, 2017)

I can say you one thing: The products are different for different purposes.


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## Vastman (Feb 3, 2017)

I own all the albions and a variety of other libraries... To ME the real question is... what else beyond Spitfire might you find useful? Project Sam's Symphobia/OE 1&2, OT's Arks, and many others are out there and you are talking about a lot of duckets...For that kind of investment I'd consider all my options and spend a chunk of time looking into them. Each has a unique flavor and is worthy of consideration.

Then again, if you are well healed with a boatload of bucks, are enamored with Spitfire's GUI and want a consistent settup, go for it! You can always add others later. I know... I'm hooked!


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## Goldie Zwecker (Feb 3, 2017)

Vastman said:


> I own all the albions and a variety of other libraries... To ME the real question is... what else beyond Spitfire might you find useful? Project Sam's Symphobia/OE 1&2, OT's Arks, and many others are out there and you are talking about a lot of duckets...For that kind of investment I'd consider all my options and spend a chunk of time looking into them. Each has a unique flavor and is worthy of consideration.
> 
> Then again, if you are well healed with a boatload of bucks, are enamored with Spitfire's GUI and want a consistent settup, go for it! You can always add others later. I know... I'm hooked!



I looked into the Symphobias and had a couple of hours with them. They sound lovely - but are too specific. The ARK I & II is a good question. Ark I is definitely more aggressive than any of the albions will ever be, and now with volume II out it also covers the more "quite" side of things, plus it has some important stuff none of the Albions have such as choirs. It doesn't have an equivalent of Brunnel loops etc but that's ok since with Omni II and other stuff i have i'm covered. On the other hand is stuff on the Albions that's unique, such as volume 4, the stuff you could find on Tundra, plus the basic tone of, say, Albion One is sweeter than Ark's. On the other hand this isn't an Albion vs Ark comparison. It's more of an: "If i have the complete Orchestral library of Spitfire plus chamber strings - which would be more different/needed? Albion or Ark"?
Also, ARK gives a different flavor which is a good thing. On the other hand - Albion is more consistent in terms of recording environment and GUI...


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## Vastman (Feb 4, 2017)

Yes, Goldie... all good points... which is why I have them all!!!

Have forsaken many a beers, wines, coffees, bar stops, meals out, and other $$$$ sucks but I'm much happier and healthier!

Best of luck deciding... Oh, and don't forget ewql hollywood orchestra, which is a killer deal during their frequent sales... I haven't sprung for it, but a few folks around here love it; my reluctance was due to a F'd up "play" engine but that has been rectified. Still, I have enough, or at least will, once I finish upgrading to the full spitfire orchestra (I have strings only at the moment)


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## robgb (Feb 4, 2017)

Goldie Zwecker said:


> So why i hesitate? Because i also own:
> 1. Omnisphere 2
> 2. Komplete Ultimate 11


You own these plus SSO? Then you don't really need anything else. Seriously. If you can't make amazing music with these, spending another grand or so will not make a difference. Unless, of course, you're rich. If so, you might as well buy them all. Plus Berlin. Plus 8dio.

Seriously, there comes a point where you just need to sit down a learn to best utilize the libraries you have.


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## markleake (Feb 4, 2017)

robgb said:


> You own these plus SSO? Then you don't really need anything else. Seriously. If you can't make amazing music with these, spending another grand or so will not make a difference. Unless, of course, you're rich. If so, you might as well buy them all. Plus Berlin. Plus 8dio.
> 
> Seriously, there comes a point where you just need to sit down a learn to best utilize the libraries you have.


+1 to this. You (the OP) have plenty of good stuff.

I would say there are still good reasons for getting the various Albions in addition to what you have, but you need to be very sure of those reasons.

For me, I sum up the Albions as:
- Easier sketching of ideas, with the added benefit that the quality of the libraries means the patches can be left in in the final product
- Various tonal colours & orchestral effects you don't get with the likes of SSO, and can't reproduce
- Some very beautiful patches & instruments, and particular focus on a 'sound' that no other library has
- No fuss -- it just works out of the box with all the other Spitfire stuff

I think you will find there are many people who have the various Albions and use them regularly with the other Spitfire products like the BML / SSO ranges.


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## ctsai89 (Feb 4, 2017)

you know where your symphobia files belong once you purchase albions: trash bin.


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## Goldie Zwecker (Feb 4, 2017)

robgb said:


> You own these plus SSO? Then you don't really need anything else. Seriously. If you can't make amazing music with these, spending another grand or so will not make a difference. Unless, of course, you're rich. If so, you might as well buy them all. Plus Berlin. Plus 8dio.
> 
> Seriously, there comes a point where you just need to sit down a learn to best utilize the libraries you have.





robgb said:


> You own these plus SSO? Then you don't really need anything else. Seriously. If you can't make amazing music with these, spending another grand or so will not make a difference.



I'm not interested in the Albions or additional stuff because i think i can't make amazing music with what i already have - but because there's stuff that SSO doesn't have. 
For example, i may sit for 10 years, making the most out of SSO - but it still won't miraculously "grow" a choir or harp sounds (which are in the ARK collections) simply because Spitfire's concept of a complete Orchestra doesn't include a choir. 
Sitting 10 years with SSO still won't make it have sackbutts or recorders, or the a-tonal phrases that are in Albion Uist, nor will it - how ever hard you may try - reach ffff dynamics like on ARK I. You also won't have the bass-celli combos you have in Albion iceni - nor will you have the hyper toms and other booms and sub thuds that you don't have on SSO - nor are they in Komplete 11. 
I agree that as for synth loops and atmospheric pads, the Albions are redundant in my case. Omnisphere 2 has plenty of those.

There's no argument that i could make amazing stuff with what i already have. I'd say that's true to most of us most of the time. I also come from electronic music, and there you see people have a moog synth, along with a korg arp, se boomstar, dreadbox erebus, and a bunch of other stuff. Theoretically they should be fine with just one or two monosynths, one poly and that's that. Yet you see them buy different synths that give them different sound colors and different options.


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## Vastman (Feb 4, 2017)

well said, Goldie... perhaps the biggest challenge for me to date was finding the time, given my overpacked commitments elsewhere... fortunately that's about to change. Sure, spending time learning and using xyz is important...and I look forward to finally having this time!

On the other hand, the diversity of what is available, to tweak ur fancy, stimulate entirely different ideas, and overlay/enhance what another library can't do alone cannot be measured. As a songwriter, opening up an airwave mult in Omnisphere is gonna result in a totally different song than if I start with Diva. Similarly, Ark 1 gets juices going that One won't... likewise, Iceni evokes an awesomeness all it's own. Even that Symphobia, or in my case, OE 1&2 is unique... and NOT the same, in any way, to the Albions.

These are tools. But I learned long ago that tools are important. Creating gardens is like creating music...Yea, I can create an edible garden with a variety of citrus... but selecting from a wider pallet of fruit trees, varieties within the type, and extending this to perennials, annuals, foliage, flowers, vegetables, and berries creates entirely different ecosystems. 

I've always said I have more than enough to do an endless stream of creation... and while I've worked hard to declutter and downsize my consumptive upbringing in the *material* world... shifting these proclivities to the virtual world, which is NOT extractive, IS supportive of creative artists, musicians, and others creating these tools, and which continues to cause me to gawk in amazement... is not a waste or an excuse to not practice and compose...

I view it as an opportunity to open doors and windows I'd never imagined before acquiring said goodies...And considering what most people I know spend their money on... this is far better. I think of this everytime I think about buying some piece of crap... and I buy a lot less crap these days because of these lovely libraries!


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## robgb (Feb 5, 2017)

Goldie Zwecker said:


> Sitting 10 years with SSO still won't make it have sackbutts or recorders, or the a-tonal phrases that are in Albion Uist, nor will it - how ever hard you may try - reach ffff dynamics like on ARK I. You also won't have the bass-celli combos you have in Albion iceni - nor will you have the hyper toms and other booms and sub thuds that you don't have on SSO - nor are they in Komplete 11.


Sounds to me as if you've already made up your mind and are simply looking for justification for your decision. If you want a choir or harp sounds, I wouldn't look to the Albion line for that. You have a perfectly functional harp in the Kontakt VSL legacy patches, and there are a dozen different choirs you can purchase that will serve you well. As for the ppp or fff sounds—really? This specialized nonsense in the sample world is getting a bit too ridiculous. To my mind, such libraries only fill a gap that is SOMETIMES needed, and is certainly not worth the exorbitant cost. But we boys (and girls) like our toys, so have at it.


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## robgb (Feb 5, 2017)

P.S. I sometimes wish sample developers were as good at fixing the glitches in their products and in customer service as they are at generating wet dreams of musical greatness.


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## robgb (Feb 5, 2017)

Kota said:


> Needed for what?


Well, that's the question, isn't it?


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## scoringdreams (Feb 5, 2017)

You won't know what you need if you don't know what you want to create.


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## Hanu_H (Feb 5, 2017)

What kind of music you are writing? I think for orchestral music you would be a lot happier with Spitfire Percussion than any of the Albion's or Ark's. Then if you really want/need ensemble based library, I would first write some music and figure out what is missing when you write. If you do trailer music mostly, then go with Ark 1, if you write more subtle things, then go for Albion One. But just buy the SA Percussion and start writing. I think the Albions won't give you anything you don't already have...only different variation of the same thing.

-Hannes


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## Goldie Zwecker (Feb 6, 2017)

I guess price will also have an impact on my decision. I have a teacher's discount for Spitfire products which means i get the Albions for less than the regular bundle (regular bundle is $1679, but if i buy each Albion individually with 30% it's $1571 for all five volumes, confirmed by spitfire customer support). 
But i teach at a regular high school and Orchestral Tools require proof that you're working in a conservatorium or some kind of educational institution specified for music teaching. So if they won't accept my documents then my money goes to Spitfire, since the 5 Albions with a discount and the 2 ARKs without are like $200 apart.


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## Vastman (Feb 6, 2017)

Goldie, I'd mention all of the above in your email to OT. They may cut you some slack.

Personally, while I have all the Albions and Symphonic Strings and some Mural, I also have the ARKs and must say I LOVE OT's Capsule system WAY more than spitfire's dinky and cruder GUI which I find a bit challenging. OT's ability to do multiple things in Capsule and it's clean, coherent, perfectly sized GUI has me hooked, in addition to the unique aspects of the ARKs...

You should google around and make sure you watch all of the Capsule vids... playing with it is really cool... I have a bunch of libs and feel it is heads and tales beyond any other GUI re: power, usability and user friendliness.

Both choices are good but different. I would say, based on recent experience, if OT will NOT give you the discount then maybe the Albions would make more sense (although I rarely if ever use several of them, but that's just me). I say this because while OT never has discounted their products after release discounts, they DID do that last nov/december; They gave a 200$ off for Ark 1 over BF for several weeks (I already owned it but many grabbed it then) and then they came out with Ark 2 in December, giving an intro discount of $250 PLUS an additional $100 off if you owned Ark 1! It was a really sweet deal.

Not saying they'll be doing an Ark 3 at the end of this year, but you could hold out hope that they might and/or might do a similar deal for 1&2 over BF timeframe.

I've learned a costly lesson over the years... Buy at intro discount and/or during the BF/Xmas holidays to save ooooodles...

By the way, regardless of any of the above, if you really want something special, grab the Bohemian Violin (36 vicontrol pages!) before price goes up with the soon to be release of expansion pack 1... the current price gets you all future expansions free vs. buying later as each expansion ups the price. It IS AWESOME...as are the folks who've created it... they are just beautiful folks who really talk to us and answer everyone who asks something...rare! The first night it was released I had tears flowing as I was playing it... just playing... no KS, just playing... it is beyond anything produced by either of the companies we're talking about... AI/scripting at a totally different level which enables you to just close your eyes and play... oh just read the thread...


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## Vastman (Feb 6, 2017)

Kota said:


> Keep in mind that 1 Ark doesn't = 1 Albion when it comes to content.


WTF does that mean? They ARE totally different! Personally, I would NOT give up Ark 1 for any or several of the albions but that is a totally personal preference... can't truly speak to Ark 2 at the moment as I'm in the process of relocating, studio/DAW now in Idaho while I'm still in the bay area trying to sell my home. However, I totally fell in love with it's unique instruments/layouts and had a blast with it before tearing down the studio and moving it north.

Content is different...VERY DIFFERENT! ensembles vs more detailed and usable instruments, different instruments, different GUI, and I guess what I'm saying is your comment is kinda ridiculous... I have both and love them for what each is... the albions can't come anywhere near Ark 1 and I'd say visa versa.

Not to be crass but... your comment is absurd, at least that's my initial reaction or maybe I misconstrue your message...??? GBs??? Breadth of distinctive things??? Overlap with SO???

when you say, "keep in mind"... I have to ask, what? Oh well, going to bed... g'night...


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## Goldie Zwecker (Feb 7, 2017)

Kota said:


> Keep in mind that 1 Ark doesn't = 1 Albion when it comes to content.


I know, and i think you misunderstood my comparison. It's not Albion one vs ARK I. 
It's Albion one + Albion Loegria + Albion Iceni + Albion Uist + Albion Tundra VS ARK I & ARK II.
If OT won't accept my documents and won't give me a discount than we're talking about something like $200 difference between the two "bundles".
As for content, the two ARK libraries are 129GB combined (75GB for ARK I and 54GB for ARK II - while the 5 albion libraries amount to 210GB of content. That's a difference of 80GB in content if you want to bring that up. 

Of course the value of each library isn't measured in the amount of gigabytes. We're not buying vegetables by the pound here. The complete ARK I library is 549 euros for 75GB of content and has a choir included - while 8dio has the LACRIMOSA choir that goes $599 and has only 17GB of content, so not always there's an obvious connection between the amount of gigabytes and the quality of the content included. 
But anyway, if they end up not giving me a teacher's discount then it would be obvious to go for the Albions.


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## mac (Feb 7, 2017)

Goldie Zwecker said:


> As for content, the two ARK libraries are 129GB combined (75GB for ARK I and 54GB for ARK II - while the 5 albion libraries amount to 210GB of content. That's a difference of 80GB in content if you want to bring that up.



I wouldn't get too hung up on the GB sizes. If you look at the samples themselves, there's a lot of empty space in them there files (not pointing the finger at anyone in particular). Also, once you start multiplying by the different mics available, it quickly becomes apparent that library size is more or less just a pissing content. Look how much you get in some of the smaller libraries from soundiron and best service.


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## Goldie Zwecker (Feb 7, 2017)

mac said:


> I wouldn't get too hung up on the GB sizes. If you look at the samples themselves, there's a lot of empty space in them there files (not pointing the finger at anyone in particular). Also, once you start multiplying by the different mics available, it quickly becomes apparent that library size is more or less just a pissing content. Look how much you get in some of the smaller libraries from soundiron and best service.


In both cases, both companies state that they have a bigger volume which is then compressed. In the case of ARK it's 160gb compressed into 75gb, etc. Albions - same story. So, same same.


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## mac (Feb 7, 2017)

@Goldie Zwecker Ja, I'm just saying that a certain percentage of a libraries overall size can be somewhat exaggerated with a whole lot of nothing, some being worse than others. I wish devs would chill with the GB war, and concentrate on optimising files a bit better. SSDs don't grow on trees!

Edit - I do realise what a first world problem this is


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## Parsifal666 (Feb 7, 2017)

robgb said:


> You own these plus SSO? Then you don't really need anything else. Seriously. If you can't make amazing music with these, spending another grand or so will not make a difference. Unless, of course, you're rich. If so, you might as well buy them all. Plus Berlin. Plus 8dio.
> 
> Seriously, there comes a point where you just need to sit down a learn to best utilize the libraries you have.



This, completely. You have so much wonderful stuff to work with, best to work on making great music with it.


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## Ashermusic (Feb 7, 2017)

FWIW I am a great believer in not putting all your eggs in any one developer's basket. They all have different philosophies and types of sound.

But at its current price point, if you have SSDs for it, the Hollywood Orchestra is an amazing bargain and to my mind, still the most versatile, because it is relatively dry and very complete without having to buy supplementary things from the same developer. But definitely not an instant gratification thing.


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## Goldie Zwecker (Feb 7, 2017)

Kota said:


> I understand.. I meant 1 as in single. The Albions are cheaper for a reason, is all I'm saying.


I'm not sure there's a connection. Even within the ARK series itself. Ark II has 20gb less than Ark I, but costs $50 more. Go figure.


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## FredrikJonasson (Feb 8, 2017)

I only have Albion ONE (and the original Albion) and while it's not redundant, I don't think it's a particular good idea to get the Albions directly after geting SSO. If you don't have ALOT of money that you just want to spend that is.

I'd like to get all Albions too, but when I think about what I already have and how quite seldom I use Albion it's just not reasonable in my case, at least not until I make a lot more money from my music. 

It's easy to get dragged into the shopping hysteria around here


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## Parsifal666 (Feb 8, 2017)

FredrikJonasson said:


> It's easy to get dragged into the shopping hysteria around here



I noticed that I spend more time here when I'm not writing. Makes me wonder exactly how much music is actually being made by many of the members here. From my experience, it takes up a lot of time, composing. Even this morning I'm just brushing up some arrangements, if I were knee deep in a composition I would have posted very little at all.

Forgive my digression.


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## robgb (Feb 8, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> FWIW I am a great believer in not putting all your eggs in any one developer's basket. They all have different philosophies and types of sound.
> 
> But at its current price point, if you have SSDs for it, the Hollywood Orchestra is an amazing bargain and to my mind, still the most versatile, because it is relatively dry and very complete without having to buy supplementary things from the same developer. But definitely not an instant gratification thing.


I agree. Or you could think about doing EWs cloud thing and get a taste of the instruments before you buy. I think it behooves any recording composer today to learn how to deal with dry samples and the basic techniques of mixing. People do like their instant gratification, but that comes at a cost, in my opinion.


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## jacobthestupendous (Feb 8, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> I noticed that I spend more time here when I'm not writing. Makes me wonder exactly how much music is actually being made by many of the members here.


I spend a lot of time here during my day job as a corporate tax accountant and virtually none when the family is in bed and a I'm able to compose.


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## JohnG (Feb 8, 2017)

robgb said:


> I think it behooves any recording composer today to learn how to deal with dry samples and the basic techniques of mixing.



Rob? This again?

I think this is totally wrong and misleading to any beginning composer interested in orchestral writing. Songs, maybe.


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## robgb (Feb 8, 2017)

JohnG said:


> Rob? This again?
> 
> I think this is totally wrong and misleading to any beginning composer interested in orchestral writing. Songs, maybe.


Yes, this again, always and forever. If you're recording your own work you need to understand the fundamentals of recording and mixing. I can't stress it enough. To suggest otherwise is to do a grave disservice to any recording composer.


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## JohnG (Feb 8, 2017)

I think it's terrible advice for would-be orchestral composers.



robgb said:


> If you're recording your own work you need to understand the fundamentals of recording and mixing.



I don't agree that recording and mixing needs to be a core skill of an orchestral composer. Unless you are mostly focused on songwriting, recording and mixing skills are very helpful but not required.

For writing score or concert pieces, it's nice to know about recording and mixing. It's helpful, useful, and informative. But there are engineers available. I would go further and say that it's advisable, maybe indispensable for any composer who's recording more than a handful of players to employ an engineer so the composer can focus on the musical aspects of the performance, not the recording tasks.

And, even if one accepts your premise about _recording_ your own music, it does not follow that one should favour close-mic'd sample orchestral libraries ("dry samples" in your words). Efforts I heard of those trying to make a close-mic'd library sound as though it was recorded in space never sound correct to me. No matter how many reverbs and early reflections and EQ and other tricks are applied, they don't sound the same.

Pick your favourite composer -- Hans records at Air in London because of the hall. John Williams recorded "Memoirs of a Geisha" and other scores at Royce Hall in Los Angeles because of the sound.


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## robgb (Feb 8, 2017)

JohnG said:


> I don't agree that recording and mixing needs to be a core skill of an orchestral composer.



It doesn't, if you intend to use a real orchestra and never record your own work. Or if your mock-up is meant only as a demo of what's to come. Unfortunately, most composers today don't have the luxury of making only demos or using live players.



> For writing score or concert pieces, it's nice to know about recording and mixing. It's helpful, useful, and informative. But there are engineers available. I would go further and say that it's advisable, maybe indispensable for any composer who's recording more than a handful of players to employ an engineer so the composer can focus on the musical aspects of the performance, not the recording tasks.
> 
> And, even if one accepts your premise about _recording_ your own music, it does not follow that one should favour close-mic'd sample orchestral libraries ("dry samples" in your words). Efforts I heard of those trying to make a close-mic'd library sound as though it was recorded in space never sound correct to me. No matter how many reverbs and early reflections and EQ and other tricks are applied, they don't sound the same.
> 
> Pick your favourite composer -- Hans records at Air in London because of the hall. John Williams recorded "Memoirs of a Geisha" and other scores at Royce Hall in Los Angeles because of the sound.


I've heard plenty recordings using close-mic'd samples that sound wonderful, just as I've heard plenty using baked-in halls that sounded bad. And this more than likely comes down to the fact that the person doing the mock-up either did or did not bother to take the time to properly mix the recording.

Creating orchestral mock-ups often comes down to using a variety of different samples from a variety of sample libraries, and getting them to blend properly is an art in itself.

To suggest that orchestral mock-ups don't need to be properly mixed is, frankly, ridiculous. And to suggest that mixing is only about "the hall" is naive. Mixing is about getting the best out of what you've recorded. Understanding when and when not to use compression and EQ, how to balance the recording, etc. I doubt there's an orchestral recording out there—especially those used in film or on TV—that hasn't been properly mixed by a sound engineer (which might explain why there's an entire industry devoted to it). And in these days of one-man shops, most composers have to be their own sound engineer, and they'd better damn well understand what that means, otherwise they'll be wondering why they never get any work.

I've discussed this at length in the past, so I won't get into it any further than this. You're obviously free to believe what you like, even when you're wrong. 

In the meantime, you might want to look into this:

http://thinkspaceeducation.com/om/


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## JohnG (Feb 8, 2017)

We disagree. 

I've been scoring for some time now. I don't agree with your conclusions and I think they are bad advice for beginners, including those working with only electronic mockups.


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## robgb (Feb 8, 2017)

JohnG said:


> We disagree.
> 
> I've been scoring for some time now. I don't agree with your conclusions and I think they are bad advice for beginners, including those working with only electronic mockups.


So, I don't get this. Are you saying that scores don't need to be mixed? Or are you merely saying that composers shouldn't worry about it? Because I have a hard time believing your scores aren't mixed.

http://evenant.com/articles/why-composers-need-to-learn-music-production


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## Goldie Zwecker (Feb 9, 2017)

Interesting couple of days i've been through, sonically. On one hand - i got to listen more and more and more to the different albion demos, ark demos, ew HO demos etc. On the other hand i got to spend more time with the spitfire orchestral symphony - and i got this new library for OmnisphereII (Keyscape Creative. Brilliant). 
So it got me thinking. First, if i would buy any additional orchestral stuff it would definetly be Albions.
On the other hand i got the feeling i should spend more time with my spitfire library before adding more orchestral stuff. 
This aside, i also thought about what i'm missing in the spitfire bundle. As i wrote earlier - mostly choirs, epic/cinematic drums & precussion, harps and all the other stuff which isn't "strings-brass-woodwinds". 
And then i came across two interesting libraries/bundles. 
The first is Soundiron's Omega Bundle which has about 350GB of different choirs and solo singers, cinematic and experimental percussion, the elysium harp, sound fx, ethnic-cinematic instruments etc etc, and it goes for $999 instead of $7162 for the libraries apart. I've been listening to those and they sound really good to me, and looks like they fill the gap. 
Another beautiful library i came across is the Spitfire Swarms which sounds really really awesome and plays well with the Spitfire orchestral stuff. So i'm thinking about these two. We shall see.


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## mac (Feb 9, 2017)

@Goldie Zwecker Soundiron stuff is top drawer


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## Michael Antrum (Feb 9, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> you know where your symphobia files belong once you purchase albions: trash bin.



What an unpleasant thing to say. I have heard some very good music produced with Symphobia. This isn't Gearslutz you know.


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## jacobthestupendous (Feb 9, 2017)

Goldie Zwecker said:


> The first is Soundiron's Omega Bundle which has about 350GB of different choirs and solo singers, cinematic and experimental percussion, the elysium harp, sound fx, ethnic-cinematic instruments etc etc, and it goes for $999 instead of $7162 for the libraries apart. I've been listening to those and they sound really good to me, and looks like they fill the gap.


If all I needed was percussion and choirs, then I wouldn't think twice about Soundiron's Omega Bundle.


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## ctsai89 (Feb 9, 2017)

mikeybabes said:


> What an unpleasant thing to say. I have heard some very good music produced with Symphobia. This isn't Gearslutz you know.



sorry.

would you rather me be sweet and fake or honest but mean? It's believable no doubt symphobia is good but comparing it to spitfire especially the albion bundle? no match.


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## Michael Antrum (Feb 9, 2017)

How nice of you to say sorry. So many people don't. I have been married for 26 years, so I am getting quite good at it myself.


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## Goldie Zwecker (Feb 9, 2017)

Getting all emotional are we? 
So anyway, not wanting to start another "flame war" but another thing i'm missing from the SSO is solo strings, which is peculiar. I mean, the spitfire orchestral brass & woodwinds all have their solo instruments as well as ensembles, but not the strings. 
Spitfire solo strings is a bit meh and the sacconi quartet - not 100% sure about it. 
Any recommendations for solo strings and/or string quartet?


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## Michael Antrum (Feb 9, 2017)

Well I have just seen the deal on the Embertone Solo Strings Collection. It's on offer at $ 200.00. That works out at $50 each for the Violin, Viola, Cello and Bass.

I am sorely tempted too by this myself, as the only solo string instrument I have is the Tina Guo Cello. It seems to be quite well regarded by many on the forum, though the Chris Heins are supposed to edge them.

But for the money it seems to be a very tempting offer.


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## Goldie Zwecker (Feb 9, 2017)

mikeybabes said:


> Well I have just seen the deal on the Embertone Solo Strings Collection. It's on offer at $ 200.00. That works out at $50 each for the Violin, Viola, Cello and Bass.


Are you sure about this? Their website shows $500, not $200...


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## Zhao Shen (Feb 9, 2017)

Goldie Zwecker said:


> So my questions is do you find it excessive and overkill to have the BML range, and Komplete Ultimate 11, and Omnisphere 2 and add the Albions?



Hmmm... I wouldn't call it excessive. A lot of the Albions have some pretty unique content that won't be covered by what you have (especially 4 and 5, which are quite unique). That said, considering that the SSO is such a fantastic collection, I'd definitely suggest looking elsewhere and maybe try to focus on gathering up some more niche offerings.

Basically, you're already in a very good position with SSO, and buying the Albion collection won't make a huge difference in what you're capable of producing (unless you think you'd use 4 and 5 a decent amount).



Goldie Zwecker said:


> Any recommendations for solo strings and/or string quartet?



Nope, in terms of versatility and realism, solo strings are not there yet. They're even lagging behind choirs in that respect. Granted, they're very difficult to sample well. You have 3 main choices that I can see.

1) Stick with Spitfire and grab the Sacconi Quartet.

2) Get CineStrings SOLO, which is the most believable but has some baffling legato sampling choices.

3) Wait it out for however long it takes someone to make a fully competent solo strings library. Cinematic Studio Solo Strings is supposed to be coming out very soon, but they don't announce anything about their products until the day that they're released.


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## Thorsten Meyer (Feb 9, 2017)

Goldie Zwecker said:


> Are you sure about this? Their website shows $500, not $200...


See here
http://vi-control.net/community/threads/those-wonderful-embertone-solo-strings-are-on-sale.59743/


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## ctsai89 (Feb 9, 2017)

Goldie Zwecker said:


> Getting all emotional are we?
> So anyway, not wanting to start another "flame war" but another thing i'm missing from the SSO is solo strings, which is peculiar. I mean, the spitfire orchestral brass & woodwinds all have their solo instruments as well as ensembles, but not the strings.
> Spitfire solo strings is a bit meh and the sacconi quartet - not 100% sure about it.
> Any recommendations for solo strings and/or string quartet?



chris hein perhaps is worth a look.


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## Parsifal666 (Feb 9, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> chris hein perhaps is worth a look.



For solo Violins I go between the Hein and the Embertone, each do things better in some ways than the other. The Hein is especially useful for the vibrato control, and once you've mastered the articulation and layers you have a fine instrument. My current string quintet set up is One Hein and one Embertone violin, 1 Adadio solo viola, 1 Emotional Cello, and 1 Adagio Solo Bass. Sounds great to me, and you have nice options with all.


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## ctsai89 (Feb 9, 2017)

Partisan Violin/cello from spitfire also look promising, but i don't have it. The sacconi cello can't play higher than A4 so that's one thing that really sucks about it. Not sure why spitfire always leave out some little things to make their libraries imperfect. Kind of annoys me lol


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## Parsifal666 (Feb 9, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> Partisan Violin/cello from spitfire also look promising, but i don't have it. The sacconi cello can't play higher than A4 so that's one thing that really sucks about it. Not sure why spitfire always leave out some little things to make their libraries imperfect. Kind of annoys me lol



Do you mean Artisan Cello from Spitfire? Because I so want to get that one, but Best Service had that Emotional Cello super sale and...in the future, definite.


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## ctsai89 (Feb 9, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> Do you mean Artisan Cello from Spitfire? Because I so want to get that one, but Best Service had that Emotional Cello super sale and...in the future, definite.



yes i meant exactly that. lol typo


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## Vastman (Feb 9, 2017)

The embertone deal is a ridiculous gift at 199 for all four... it's going for another 13 days...


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