# What is a great Reverb to use for blending different Libraries?



## jononotbono (Sep 23, 2015)

Hi,

So, I have recently finished watching Mike Verta's Masterclass - Virtuosity and I found it fascinating how he went through creating Virtual Bleed onto Virtual Instruments to simulate what actually happens when Multiple Mics are recording Multiple sound sources/players. Slowly getting through each masterclass but one thing at a time so I don't get lost at Digital Sea...

Reverb, What is a great Reverb to invest in for blending different Orchestral Libraries. So far I only own the Reverbs in NI K10U and the Reverbs that come with C Pro 8. Is this a very subjective area or are there some Reverbs that are just designed for this kind of thing? I've noticed People using East West Spaces and I couldn't help but look at VSL MIR Pro when I bought VEPro. MIR looks amazing but it comes at a serious price. Any wisdom on this area would be very appreciated because I certainly don't want to spend Money on things that aren't going to change my World etc. Perhaps recommendations on Delay effects as well because I loved the Secret Weapons Mike Verta Masterclass where he shows the Delay trick! Brilliant stuff!

I have bought a few Tutorials on Spacial Effects so am slowly learning (on top of so much other stuff) but VI Control is proving to be one of the best Tutorial sites on the Internet!

Thanks

Jono


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## Vin (Sep 23, 2015)

Lexicon PCM, 2CAudio B2, ValhallaRoom and VintageVerb, EW Spaces, Audio Ease Altiverb...they're all good and you can try the demos. MIR Pro is good for VSL libraries, but didn't like it much all for other stuff - too expensive for what you can do with reverb and a little knowledge imo. 

You have RC 48 with Komplete, right? Then you already have a capable reverb at your disposal, just learn it inside out. Reverbs are pretty much subjective, which many blind test proved. I've heard great sounding stuff (from Troels of 8dio if I remember correctly) done with Cubase's stock Roomworks reverb.

Also, there are a ton of threads on this already, new forum search is great, give it a whirl.


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## Dean (Sep 23, 2015)

EWQL Spaces! D


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## Lex (Sep 23, 2015)

Exponential Audio - Phoenix


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 23, 2015)

Spaces plus a good algorithmic reverb is a good way to go.


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## Rodney Money (Sep 23, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Spaces plus a good algorithmic reverb is a good way to go.


What do you recommend for an algorithmic reverb?


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 23, 2015)

For me it is the UAD Plate 140, pure magic. But any good algo reverb adds the breathing that you don't get from a good convolution reverb.


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## Rodney Money (Sep 23, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> For me it is the UAD Plate 140, pure magic. But any good algo reverb adds the breathing that you don't get from a good convolution reverb.


Wow, another $200. So how would you use this, for example, with a solo instrument mixed with Spaces which I have. UAD Plate 140 was based on the reverb used with the album "Dark Side of the Moon?"


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## jononotbono (Sep 23, 2015)

I am going to get a UAD Octo Card but its quite an expense. Anything less than an Octocard is a waste (in my opinion) and with other studio upgrades on the horizon it may be a little while before I make the jump. It would be an interesting thread to talk about great plug ins that are used to mix Midi Mock Ups and even final pieces which use Sample Libraries and "real" instruments. Thanks for everyone's input so far!


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 23, 2015)

Rodney, each orchestral section goes to a discrete QL Spaces on a discrete Aux in Logic Pro. ALL orchestral sections send a little to the algo reverb.

And if i were to list all the records that used an EMT Plate 140, it might take me until Xmas.

jononotbono, I have a Quad card and while I would love an Octo, it gets the job done for me. But I am more conservative with plug-in usage than a lot of people.


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## jononotbono (Sep 23, 2015)

How many instances of the UAD2 EMT140 would you typically use in a template? I'm interested in how far a Quad Card will go in the real World and not from reading a spec sheet. This is slightly digressing from Reverbs but would you say UAD2 is THE platform the all pros use for plugins? Or do many use Waves or Slate or a combination of all. I've been itching to join the UAD world but its one thing at a time for me at the minute! Having dsp processors is one of many great reasons to use it.

If the EMT140 is a brilliant Reverb especially for using with libraries then I guess I am not digressing too much and gives me another reason to think even more about UAD2!


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 23, 2015)

jononotbono said:


> How many instances of the UAD2 EMT140 would you typically use in a template? I'm interested in how far a Quad Card will go in the real World and not from reading a spec sheet. This is slightly digressing from Reverbs but would you say UAD2 is THE platform the all pros use for plugins? I've been itching to join that world but its one thing at a time for me at the minute!
> 
> If the EMT140 is a brilliant Reverb especially for using with libraries then I guess I am not digressing too much and gives me another reason to think even more about UAD2!



One. All sections send to it for breathing and gloss. Sections send to discrete instances of the convolution reverb.

I don't except the idea that here is a THE way to do anything for pros. But it works for me and others who I help with Logic Pro/VE Pro who adopt it after hearing my rig.


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## Zhao Shen (Sep 23, 2015)

I use RC48 for a good majority of my reverb work. A fantastic plugin.


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## PeterKorcek (Sep 23, 2015)

Spaces and RC reverbs are great!


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## almound (Sep 23, 2015)

Ummm. No mention of the physical space within which one's sample libraries were recorded? No mention of specific ER or reverb tails for any of these halls or studios? No mention of calibrating your samples to the dynamic of piano? Admittedly, all of you mention fine reverb products, but then are you trying to use these reverbs without concrete information about the sample libraries themselves (such as where they were recorded, with what methods, and with what relative dynamics)?

Do yourselves a favor and spend a little money first to get info (not easily available elsewhere) that will make all this more than just guess-work. http://www.alexanderpublishing.com/Products/Visual-Orchestration-2--Articulations-and-Templates__Spec-VizOrch-02-Dwnld.aspx (&quot;Visual Orchestration #2&quot; from Alexander Publishing) is a video tutorial series that gives concrete, focused info on the major sample libraries, the major reverbs, and also how to employ these products to get samples to sound as though in the same room.

Then there is http://www.alexanderpublishing.com/Products/Visual-Orchestration-3--DOING-The-Basic-Virtual-Orchestral-Mix__Spec-VizOrch-03-Dwnld.aspx (&quot;Visual Orchestration #3&quot; from Alexander Publishing) which carries the ideas to the next level. The money you spend will save a lot of time.

We *are* talking about spending money here, right? Do it smart. (No, I'm not affiliated in any way with Alexander Publishing, or with any other profit-making venture.)


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 23, 2015)

Al, the much missed Peter was a friend and a big supporter of my efforts and in turn I respected him as well, but he used to call me _all the time_ and ask me for advice on how he could get his sample based compositions to sound as good as mine 

But yes, there are lots of factors that go into making the verbs work well for your sample based composition and we are painting in broad strokes in this discussion.


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## jononotbono (Sep 23, 2015)

I shall definitely check out the Alexander Publishing Visual Orchestration Tutorial series. Thanks.

So many tutorials to study now. It's great.


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## KEnK (Sep 23, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> each orchestral section goes to a discrete QL Spaces on a discrete Aux in Logic Pro. ALL orchestral sections send a little to the algo reverb.


Interesting Jay-

So- you use a convo for ER and an algo for tail.
I do the opposite. (Though I used to do it the other way)
Think I got that idea from one of the long informative reverb threads here.

Do you feel algo's lack a realistic ER?

thanks

k


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 23, 2015)

I don't know, K. I only know that when I adopted that approach, my software reverb started to sound to my ears, and to the ears of some of my trusted colleagues who I sent things to, more like expensive hardware.

Peter Schwartz, no slouch of a sample based composer himself, once said to me, "That is the best sounding software reverb sound I have ever heard."


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## KEnK (Sep 23, 2015)

I'm familiar w/ Peter Schwartz through his tuts and of course Peter Alexander.
Those are fairly stellar cudos to have under your belt.

I'm still monkeying w/ my reverb set up-
Usually trying various combos of ER's and Tails.
My last experiment was w/ Melda's Mreverb for the ER.
I liked it, but a lot of people seem unhappy w/ it.
Personally, I thought it was quite excellent.

So your post makes me think maybe I'll give the convo's as ER another whirl.
Are there any Space Designer IR's you'd recommend?

Thanks for your input.
I appreciate it.

k


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 23, 2015)

KEnK said:


> I'm familiar w/ Peter Schwartz through his tuts and of course Peter Alexander.
> Those are fairly stellar cudos to have under your belt.
> 
> I'm still monkeying w/ my reverb set up-
> ...



No specific Space Designer ones as I haven't used it for quite a while. But NEVER let anyone deter you, who is not paying you for your work, from liking what YOU like. 

Reverb choices in particular are highly subjective and if you are not mostly using libraries that are rather dry, YMMV.


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## KEnK (Sep 23, 2015)

hmm...

I thought as a bonafide Logic Guru you might have something to say about SD IRs 
But I do have my personal favs.

Thanks though

k


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## kunst91 (Sep 23, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> For me it is the UAD Plate 140, pure magic. But any good algo reverb adds the breathing that you don't get from a good convolution reverb.



I've always wondered, how do you guys use convolution vs algorithmic?


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 23, 2015)

KEnK said:


> hmm...
> 
> I thought as a bonafide Logic Guru you might have something to say about SD IRs
> But I do have my personal favs.
> ...



Space Designer is a perfectly fine convolution reverb but the IRs are fine but not special. I seem to remember some third party IRs flm by Ernest Chokalis that I thought were significantly better.


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## KEnK (Sep 23, 2015)

thanks for the tip Jay.
Don't know why but "Ernest Chokalis" sounds familiar.

k


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## synthpunk (Sep 23, 2015)

I'm old enough to remember $2000 being cheap for a reverb unit (Yamaha Rev 7). 

Grab the UAD when it's on sale for $149-$99, at least a few times year, although you may have wait for Xmas now. Can be had even less used with any coupons in addition to the sale.



Rodney Money said:


> Wow, another $200. So how would you use this, for example, with a solo instrument mixed with Spaces which I have. UAD Plate 140 was based on the reverb used with the album "Dark Side of the Moon?"


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## jononotbono (Sep 23, 2015)

aesthete said:


> I'm old enough to remember $2000 being cheap for a reverb unit (Yamaha Rev 7).
> 
> Grab the UAD when it's on sale for $149-$99, at least a few times year, although you may have wait for Xmas now. Can be had even less used with any coupons in addition to the sale.



I would have in this sale but I have seemingly walked into a huge Summer Sample Library Sale with many Developers and spent so much in the past few months! UAD is in the post though and can't wait till I can afford it! I hear their plugins are like Digital Crack and they give you a 14 day demo period to give you a little "taste" haha.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 23, 2015)

KEnK said:


> thanks for the tip Jay.
> Don't know why but "Ernest Chokalis" sounds familiar.
> 
> k



http://www.numericalsound.com/about.html


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## jononotbono (Sep 23, 2015)

I have noticed EW Spaces is currently at $149.50. This seems like a great price. I think I will have to try out the demo this weekend and see what it's like.


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## jononotbono (Sep 24, 2015)

almound said:


> Ummm. No mention of the physical space within which one's sample libraries were recorded? No mention of specific ER or reverb tails for any of these halls or studios? No mention of calibrating your samples to the dynamic of piano? Admittedly, all of you mention fine reverb products, but then are you trying to use these reverbs without concrete information about the sample libraries themselves (such as where they were recorded, with what methods, and with what relative dynamics)?
> 
> Do yourselves a favor and spend a little money first to get info (not easily available elsewhere) that will make all this more than just guess-work. http://www.alexanderpublishing.com/Products/Visual-Orchestration-2--Articulations-and-Templates__Spec-VizOrch-02-Dwnld.aspx (&quot;Visual Orchestration #2&quot; from Alexander Publishing) is a video tutorial series that gives concrete, focused info on the major sample libraries, the major reverbs, and also how to employ these products to get samples to sound as though in the same room.
> 
> ...



These tutorials look absolutely great. I've just had a proper look at them as I have been busy away from a computer. They are on sale as well. Looks like a Gold Mine of information so thank you once again!


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## Gzu (Sep 24, 2015)

Hello Vic friends!

I'm using Samplicity IR!
Absolutely perfect!!


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## almound (Sep 24, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Al, the much missed Peter was a friend and a big supporter of my efforts and in turn I respected him as well, but he used to call me _all the time_ and ask me for advice on how he could get his sample based compositions to sound as good as mine
> 
> But yes, there are lots of factors that go into making the verbs work well for your sample based composition and we are painting in broad strokes in this discussion.



Gotcha. Thanks for the heads up.


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## almound (Sep 24, 2015)

jononotbono said:


> These tutorials look absolutely great. I've just had a proper look at them as I have been busy away from a computer. They are on sale as well. Looks like a Gold Mine of information so thank you once again!



Your welcome. Glad to point them out. And thanks to EastWest Lurker ... he probably did a lot to ensure those tutorials' creation.


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## Daniel James (Sep 24, 2015)

ArtsAcoustic Reverb is a great verb for designing a room which for me settles all libraries to a nice happy mid ground where they all play nice. Convolution ones are great but you want to be careful not to limit yourself to a recorded room. Algorithmic gives you a little more flexibility (and use as an insert so you can dial back the dry if you want them to sit more in a room).

-DJ


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## kunst91 (Sep 24, 2015)

Daniel James said:


> ArtsAcoustic Reverb is a great verb for designing a room which for me settles all libraries to a nice happy mid ground where they all play nice. Convolution ones are great but you want to be careful not to limit yourself to a recorded room. Algorithmic gives you a little more flexibility (and use as an insert so you can dial back the dry if you want them to sit more in a room).
> 
> -DJ



Daniel's point about using algorithmic reverb as an insert is a great one. Awesome way to create depth in a mix. Some of my favorites in this case would be the Valhallas, UAD lexicon, RP Verb and even the zebra reverb plugin. These aren't necessarily used for a "realistic" sound, but realism has never been the goal for me


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## Dr.Quest (Sep 24, 2015)

Daniel James said:


> ArtsAcoustic Reverb is a great verb for designing a room which for me settles all libraries to a nice happy mid ground where they all play nice. Convolution ones are great but you want to be careful not to limit yourself to a recorded room. Algorithmic gives you a little more flexibility (and use as an insert so you can dial back the dry if you want them to sit more in a room).
> 
> -DJ


I love ArtsAcoustic Reverb. I've used it since it first came out. It just sounds great and is very easy to use. That and Verb Session are my go to general verbs.


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## KEnK (Sep 25, 2015)

Daniel James said:


> ArtsAcoustic Reverb is a great verb for designing a room which for me settles all libraries to a nice happy mid ground where they all play nice.


Hi Daniel,
I like ArtsAcoustic too, and picked it up a while ago because of your past recommendations.
I'm always poking around w/ various reverbs and haven't settled on just one.
Lateley I've been using the old Oxford Reverb, and I'm getting good results w/ Melda's Mreverb.
Just curious if you've tried either of those

k


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## jononotbono (Sep 25, 2015)

Daniel James said:


> ArtsAcoustic Reverb is a great verb for designing a room which for me settles all libraries to a nice happy mid ground where they all play nice. Convolution ones are great but you want to be careful not to limit yourself to a recorded room. Algorithmic gives you a little more flexibility (and use as an insert so you can dial back the dry if you want them to sit more in a room).
> 
> -DJ



Thanks Daniel! I shall check it out! 
Got a lot of reading to do now!


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## cheul (Sep 27, 2015)

KEnK said:


> Interesting Jay-
> So- you use a convo for ER and an algo for tail.
> I do the opposite. (Though I used to do it the other way)
> k



I remember this very old tutorial/demo done with discrete instances of Altiverb and one instance on master for tails. I guess tails here could easily be managed by one instance of algo reverb. That was one of the first explanation I saw of the concept... eons ago !
https://www.audioease.com/Pages/Altiverb/AltiverbStagepositions.html


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## kunst91 (Oct 1, 2015)

Daniel James said:


> ArtsAcoustic Reverb is a great verb for designing a room which for me settles all libraries to a nice happy mid ground where they all play nice. Convolution ones are great but you want to be careful not to limit yourself to a recorded room. Algorithmic gives you a little more flexibility (and use as an insert so you can dial back the dry if you want them to sit more in a room).
> 
> -DJ


Hey Daniel, just curious, because I know you also use spitfire libraries fairly extensively, do you ever find that you run into any issues with the whole "reverb on reverb" thing given the ambience of Air?


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## Daniel James (Oct 1, 2015)

kunst91 said:


> Hey Daniel, just curious, because I know you also use spitfire libraries fairly extensively, do you ever find that you run into any issues with the whole "reverb on reverb" thing given the ambience of Air?



Not particularly, if things get to hairy I will throw them in their own Kontakt. Spitfire ones usually have mic positions though so I can just give her a bit more close mic if need be.

-DJ


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## kunst91 (Oct 2, 2015)

Daniel James said:


> Not particularly, if things get to hairy I will throw them in their own Kontakt. Spitfire ones usually have mic positions though so I can just give her a bit more close mic if need be.
> 
> -DJ



Thanks! Been trying to think of ways to blend orchestral libraries. I've always used reverb inserts for my sound design stuff, but never tried it for orchestral stems.


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## Daniel James (Oct 2, 2015)

kunst91 said:


> Thanks! Been trying to think of ways to blend orchestral libraries. I've always used reverb inserts for my sound design stuff, but never tried it for orchestral stems.



I treat sound design and orchestral stuff the same when it comes to reverb. They are both just sounds which we can manipulate 

-DJ


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## kunst91 (Oct 2, 2015)

Daniel James said:


> I treat sound design and orchestral stuff the same when it comes to reverb. They are both just sounds which we can manipulate
> 
> -DJ



great philosophy! Besides your orchestral stems (strings, brass, Perc, piano, etc) how many other stems do you add a reverb insert to?


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## Daniel James (Oct 2, 2015)

kunst91 said:


> great philosophy! Besides your orchestral stems (strings, brass, Perc, piano, etc) how many other stems do you add a reverb insert to?



Anything that needs throwing in a room haha sometimes its a boom, sometimes a loopy sound design thing. I work with each sound as I get to it and figure out what it needs to be part of the bigger picture.

-DJ


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## jononotbono (Oct 2, 2015)

I decided to take the plunge and buy East West Spaces. Just waiting for the license to come through and looking forward to learning it! The product choices are overwhelming so I have gone with one and see how it goes!


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## kunst91 (Oct 2, 2015)

jononotbono said:


> I decided to take the plunge and buy East West Spaces. Just waiting for the license to come through and looking forward to learning it! The product choices are overwhelming so I have gone with one and see how it goes!



Spaces is a great reverb, you'll get a lot of mileage out of it.


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## kunst91 (Oct 2, 2015)

Daniel James said:


> Anything that needs throwing in a room haha sometimes its a boom, sometimes a loopy sound design thing. I work with each sound as I get to it and figure out what it needs to be part of the bigger picture.
> 
> -DJ



Pretty sensible, I tend to overcomplicate things when it comes to my sound design effects/routing


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## Shubus (Oct 2, 2015)

kunst91 said:


> Thanks! Been trying to think of ways to blend orchestral libraries. I've always used reverb inserts for my sound design stuff, but never tried it for orchestral stems.


It just doesn't get any better than Peter Alexander's 3 volume course "Visual Orchestration". After digesting most of this course, I got IRCAM Tools and setup everything so it sounds like I'm in Teldex where Berlin Strings & Berlin Woodwinds were recorded--and these are my main libraries, so happily I only have to process instruments NOT recorded there to put them in the same room--namely Teldex. I find myself still going back to Peter's course as I still don't have everything in my mind yet since that course is densely packed with lots of infos.


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## kunst91 (Oct 2, 2015)

Shubus said:


> It just doesn't get any better than Peter Alexander's 3 volume course "Visual Orchestration". After digesting most of this course, I got IRCAM Tools and setup everything so it sounds like I'm in Teldex where Berlin Strings & Berlin Woodwinds were recorded--and these are my main libraries, so happily I only have to process instruments NOT recorded there to put them in the same room--namely Teldex. I find myself still going back to Peter's course as I still don't have everything in my mind yet since that course is densely packed with lots of infos.



I know I have been meaning to check out this and mike verta's courses. Although Daniel's music sounds great, and he doesn't follow the typical conventions


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