# Pianists: does this first page look odd, confusing?



## Matt Riley (Jul 7, 2015)

I'm writing some piano sheet music out and wonder the best way to do it. 

Check out the first 30 seconds or so of the recording found here: 

http://mattrileymusic.com/ode-to-joy

Then check out the first page of the piano sheet music found under it and click to enlarge it. Basically I want a clean, easy to read way to show left and right hand suggestions for playing that section. I've tried a few different options but they look so messy to me and so I settled on this for now. Do is look odd, confusing? 

Thanks!
Matt


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## amordechai (Jul 7, 2015)

Pianist here. I'd do it this way:

- write the letters under the notes, not above
- leave the first measure unaltered 
- from the third measure keep the letters only when the pattern L R L R etc. changes.
- put a "come prima" / "simile" / "as before" on the third bar

Have a look at my image of third





Hope that helps!
Antonio


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## Matt Riley (Jul 7, 2015)

Thanks Antonio! Your image doesn't load for me for some reason. I followed your advice though. Is this what you mean?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8xbJaZ1nMjyVTVXNGN3Q2dhVkE/view?usp=sharing


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## amordechai (Jul 7, 2015)

Matt Riley said:


> Thanks Antonio! Your image doesn't load for me for some reason. I followed your advice though. Is this what you mean?
> 
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8xbJaZ1nMjyVTVXNGN3Q2dhVkE/view?usp=sharing



I don't know what happened with the image, i'm sorry! Here it is again:




Now that I have seen your edited page I feel that it's better to leave the four "L" as you did. 

- A.


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## SillyMidOn (Jul 7, 2015)

Matt Riley said:


> I'm writing some piano sheet music out and wonder the best way to do it.
> 
> Check out the first 30 seconds or so of the recording found here:
> 
> ...



HI

You do not need these LR etc instructions in all honesty - any half-decent pianist will/should be able to work out himself how to play this section, and ignore any instructions you have given anyway, especially as they will find a way that suits them best.

It's a bit like over-zealous pedalling instructions or over-eager bowing instructions for string players, which mostly aren't necessary, clutter up the page and just get ignored.


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## Ale8ory (Jul 7, 2015)

SillyMidOn said:


> HI
> 
> You do not need these LR etc instructions in all honesty - any half-decent pianist will/should be able to work out himself how to play this section, and ignore any instructions you have given anyway, especially as they will find a way that suits them best.
> 
> It's a bit like over-zealous pedalling instructions or over-eager bowing instructions for string players, which mostly aren't necessary, clutter up the page and just get ignored.




Exactly. I would rather play the Cs in my left hand using an alternating fingering than try to coordinate two-handed. But if you had to have it that way I'd suggest up alternating up and down stem notes in the upper staff.


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## Matt Riley (Jul 7, 2015)

Ale8ory said:


> Exactly. I would rather play the Cs in my left hand using an alternating fingering than try to coordinate two-handed. But if you had to have it that way I'd suggest up alternating up and down stem notes in the upper staff.


Interesting... I find it easier to play it with two hands. Everyone is different though. Maybe most will want to do all the Cs with the LH. 

Don't you think it would be better to leave it in the lower staff either way then? That way it would give the pianist a choice to either take the LR suggestions or ignore them and play all the Cs with the left hand?


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## Jaap (Jul 7, 2015)

I always ignore the finger and or hand suggestions and make my own. I know that also from 2 very good piano friends.

In the example you posted I would probably play it with different fingers as some others suggested as well. This is a personal opinion, but often I find it a bit too much a "show element" to play this kind of notes with two hands. Also it makes it for me more complicated then it actually is.
If you want to keep the hand suggestions I like how you did it. It's clean. Mostly the finger or hand suggestions are below it, but this leaves room to make my own or other notes.

Just my 2 cents!


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## MrCambiata (Jul 7, 2015)

It's a little confusing because:
1. You don't really need the L-R instructions on every note like others have mentioned and
2. You didn't separate the 3rd beat from the 4th in the left hand in bars 4,5 etc. like you did in bars 3,5 etc. So it's not consistent and is also confusing to connect so many 16th notes.


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## Matt Riley (Jul 7, 2015)

Done and done. Also updated on my site. Thanks!


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## sherief83 (Jul 7, 2015)

Jaap said:


> I always ignore the finger and or hand suggestions and make my own. I know that also from 2 very good piano friends.
> 
> In the example you posted I would probably play it with different fingers as some others suggested as well. This is a personal opinion, but often I find it a bit too much a "show element" to play this kind of notes with two hands. Also it makes it for me more complicated then it actually is.
> If you want to keep the hand suggestions I like how you did it. It's clean. Mostly the finger or hand suggestions are below it, but this leaves room to make my own or other notes.
> ...




lol i fully agree on that to an extent. some pieces, the fingering is simply insane and made for people with with octopus hands. others completely make sense, Ravel however is a great exception for instance. as a great example of why you should follow his fingering, you do get more dynamics when you follow it. others, follow your piano instinct!

I have no comment on the main piece of this thread though as many already suggested great stuff for you Matt.


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## Smikes77 (Jul 8, 2015)

Matt Riley said:


> Interesting... I find it easier to play it with two hands. Everyone is different though. Maybe most will want to do all the Cs with the LH.
> 
> Don't you think it would be better to leave it in the lower staff either way then? That way it would give the pianist a choice to either take the LR suggestions or ignore them and play all the Cs with the left hand?



Yes, leave it in the lower staff, and suggest the fingering of 4321.


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## tokatila (Jul 8, 2015)

Those L and Rs are very confusing altogether. As a matter of fact I have never seen those kind of notations before., maybe because I played mostly classical music. I was expecting to see 4,3,2,1 indicating the fingering for the left hand. So I concur with Jaap here.


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## bryla (Jul 8, 2015)

The L's and R's are only for percussion.
I would use upstems for right hand and downstems for left and write it in the treble clef without sixteenth-rests.


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## Matt Riley (Jul 8, 2015)

True... maybe less is more. The stems up/down idea was the first thing I tried and I thought it looked so messy. That was the reason for the L and R notes. 

Now I'm thinking of removing those and just including it in my "Performance Tips" section of my "Note to the Pianist". I always include a separate note to the purchaser thanking them, giving practice tips and then some info about related products and my newsletter. It may make more sense to suggest the two hand thing there. I also plan to include a more simplyfied intermediate level version where I may include more suggestions.


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## bryla (Jul 8, 2015)

Something along the lines of this.

I think it's a very nice gesture to thank people for purchasing and giving practice tips!


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## Matt Riley (Jul 8, 2015)

Just out of curiously, if I wrote the whole thing like your graphic above, would the performer still feel freedom to play it one handed or two handed? I'm wondering because based on the preference of the people that chimed in here, most people may want to play the repeated notes with the LH. 

Obviously I prefer it two handed. This is because: 
#1. It seems easier to play the accents and
#2. It's intended to be a showy performance tune and I think it looks cooler from an audience perspective. 

But I know people will do what makes the most sense to them. I just want to accommodate that appropriately.


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## KevSharpMinor (Jul 9, 2015)

Hi Matt, 
check out this first page from Ravel's Toccata from Le tombeau de Couperin
http://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ImagefromIndex/01682

Ravel does it because it's easier to play the accents that way, especially at a fast tempo. Looking showy is just a fun bonus.

It looks like you're doing something similar and at a similar tempo, so I think it's reasonable to notate it for both hands. But I'd personally do a different grouping though, more like Ravel. If I played your piece, I'd probably ignore your LR markings and play it more like the Ravel anyway. (Don't get me wrong, I like showy!). If you change the grouping and do alternating up/down stems, it may not look as messy as you thought.

Looks like a fun piece, I'll have to play it sometime.


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## Matt Riley (Jul 9, 2015)

What an excellent reference, thanks! I'll try it out. Now to figure out how to do that in Finale haha.


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## Matt Riley (Jul 10, 2015)

The part I'm having trouble with is the beams. I can't seem to get the beam to meet in the middle...


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## Matt Riley (Jul 10, 2015)

Edit: Never mind I figured it out. Here it is.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8xbJaZ1nMjydXVmcUZ5SEMtUzQ/view?usp=sharing


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## Matt Riley (Jul 10, 2015)

I'm wondering if bryla's idea is cleaner though... maybe easier on the eyes?


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## KevSharpMinor (Jul 10, 2015)

I like how you changed it, but I could understand if you wanted it to look less complicated. Can you mock up the same passage with bryla's idea to compare?
Here's another idea: http://imslp.nl/imglnks/usimg/f/f1/IMSLP156882-PMLP02567-Liszt_Klavierwerke_Peters_Sauer_Band_3_1-12_Etudes_S.139_filter.pdf

Look on page 3 and at Etudes 2, 8, and 10. See how in #2, the stems alternate but the beams stay connected? That might look cleaner and you could keep the notes in the top staff. Sorry if that's not clear, I can mock up a picture later when I get home.


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## Matt Riley (Jul 10, 2015)

Thanks for the references. Here's the bryla idea for comparison. 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8xbJaZ1nMjyQ0M0Q1dBaTFaUFU/view?usp=sharing


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## chillbot (Jul 10, 2015)

As a piano player this is fine but I don't like it as much, the cleanest looking version to me is the one at the top of this page with the cross staff stems... but would it look even cleaner if you left the bottom staff in bass clef instead of switching to treble?


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## MrCambiata (Jul 10, 2015)

The alternating stems on the same system seem to be the best solution, at least I wouldn't have a problem reading it this way.


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## Matt Riley (Jul 11, 2015)

chillbot said:


> As a piano player this is fine but I don't like it as much, the cleanest looking version to me is the one at the top of this page with the cross staff stems... but would it look even cleaner if you left the bottom staff in bass clef instead of switching to treble?


Here it is with the bottom staff in bass clef.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8xbJaZ1nMjyakpzUHo1Wk1IbVU/view?usp=sharing



MrCambiata said:


> The alternating stems on the same system seem to be the best solution, at least I wouldn't have a problem reading it this way.


Yeah I'm leaning in that direction.


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## KevSharpMinor (Jul 13, 2015)

I could go either way between the last two versions. Definitely no wrong choice. 

I like your site! What shopping cart software are you using?


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## Matt Riley (Jul 13, 2015)

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If you're looking for a good webhost for musicians, you can try them out for free and see if you like it. And if you sign up using the link below, I get a free month! 

http://bandzoogle.com/?memref=r13746


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## kenneth.smith (Jul 24, 2015)

I have similar questions about a piano transcription I am doing (attached). I have notated the same five bars two different ways, the first all in bass clef, the second split between two bass clefs to show right/ left hand fingering. Is one of these preferable to a pianist or is there a better way to notate the attached part? Any suggestions welcome!


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## Aakaash Rao (Jul 24, 2015)

Kenneth, I would definitely prefer to read the second version. I would, however, put the Es (the second sixteenth note of bars 1-3) in the right hand, as that would be easier to play. I'd also notate the dotted quarter note rests as an eighth note rest then a quarter note rest. Just a matter of style.


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## kenneth.smith (Jul 26, 2015)

Thanks Aakash!


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## Smikes77 (Jul 27, 2015)

Why don`t you put it in the same clef all the way through?


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## kenneth.smith (Aug 2, 2015)

That is definitely an option. I used two bass clefs to show which hand plays which notes. Also, there are several clef changes later in the song where it is necessary to have the usual bass and treble clefs due to the range of notes being played. Would you still recommend using one clef and letting the pianist figure out which hand plays which notes?


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## Smikes77 (Aug 2, 2015)

Yes I would. Don`t worry about spelling everything out for the player - they`ll be fine!


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## kenneth.smith (Aug 2, 2015)

Smikes77 said:


> Yes I would. Don`t worry about spelling everything out for the player - they`ll be fine!


Ok thanks for the advice!


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## Aakaash Rao (Aug 2, 2015)

Actually, I personally would write those clef changes in. Simple figures like repeated notes are relatively easy to figure out, but putting the voices of two hands in one clef, especially if they're close together, can be a headache to read.


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## Smikes77 (Aug 3, 2015)

Best to post an excerpt


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## kenneth.smith (Aug 8, 2015)

Sorry for the delayed post... 

Here is the first page of the transcription notated using two different approaches. From rereading this thread, I see that a third approach is to use stem direction to indicate which hand plays each note. Perhaps it would be best to change the stem directions in the one clef version to indicate which hand plays each note?


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## Smikes77 (Aug 9, 2015)

Ok, this is easy. The one you have labelled "one clef" is the correct one. You still need to include the treble clef though for the first two lines. You definitely don`t need that extra bass clef in the other example.


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## kenneth.smith (Aug 9, 2015)

Since there are no notes in the treble clef, why should I include the treble clef in the first two systems?


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## Smikes77 (Aug 10, 2015)

It looks wierd to have just the bass clef and then reading through, suddenly there is an additional clef to read.


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