# Prokofiev mock up



## JonesyXL (May 31, 2018)

Here's a mock up of the exposition from the 1st movement of Prokofiev's classical symphony. Libraries used - CSS, VSL, Strezov, EW, string runs from Albion One

Feedback appreciated!

And here's the real thing, with score


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## muziksculp (May 31, 2018)

Hi @JonesyXL

Very Well Done ! Bravo 

This sounds very realistic, and I love the overall dynamics of the strings, and woodwinds. I also like how you blended the various libraries together in the mix, everything just seems to be coming from the same hall.

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## hawpri (May 31, 2018)

Hey Nat, this was really lively. The only thoughts and/or suggestions I might want to pass on is that some of the instruments seem to have very wide panning. It could be that you wanted it that way and that it's only a difference in tastes. The other thing that came to mind is that the pizzicato (is that what I'm hearing?) from 1:28 on is a bit unrealistically loud to my ears, but that's not to say boosting the strings is never called for since it's pretty common. Mock ups of concert music (or any existing piece) are hard to pull off and I can tell you put some work into making this so good.


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## Eliot (May 31, 2018)

Amazing. I found it hard to fault. Very impressed by the handling of the strings and tying in the different libraries.


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## Rob (Jun 1, 2018)

Lovely!


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## mikeh-375 (Jun 1, 2018)

Jonesy,

Nice work. Your attention to score detail and the way you pull it all off is quite convincing and shows the importance of correct articulation choices. Now c'mon, lets hear how you deal with the rollicking, galloping last mvt.....which might be a bigger challenge for samples.


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## Levitanus (Jun 1, 2018)

Well... You can not hear the "mean" difference of VST and real.
I don't want to be blah-blah-guy, so soon (don't know, if it could be on the week) will sit my ass down for couple of days and make something to compare with)


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## mikeh-375 (Jun 1, 2018)

Of course I can, but nothing wrong with appreciating and encouraging a good effort. I look forward to your version with great interest now.


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## stan-k (Jun 1, 2018)

Superb! Love the dynamics and the dynamic range. Very natural.


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## Divico (Jun 1, 2018)

JonesyXL said:


> Here's a mock up of the exposition from the 1st movement of Prokofiev's classical symphony. Libraries used - CSS, VSL, Strezov, EW, string runs from Albion One
> 
> Feedback appreciated!
> 
> And here's the real thing, with score



To be honest I dont think I could say if its samples or an orchestra in a blind test 
Amazing work and as overs said very dynamic indeed.
The real thing has more room to it, whilst yours sounds a bit dry. Matter of taste I´d say, however I like the way the room "responds" in the actual recording


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## JonesyXL (Jun 1, 2018)

Thanks for the feedback everyone, I really appreciate it. 

@hawpri - great observations! Production-wise I tried to not mess around with it too much, but I did use Ozone Imager on the master bus. Maybe i was fooled into thinking it sounded better, when it just sounded different. Also you're spot on about the pizzicato, i just listened to the reference and it's definitely too loud.

@mikeh-375 lol now that would be impressive! I think there are some pieces that are just impossible to get close to with midi.

@Divico yeah, you're right about the reverb. I initially used more, but pulled it back in the end, thinking it might help to give it a bit more definition. 

Oh, there is a mistake at 41 seconds - I got the cello/bass and the woodwind lines the wrong way around in that bar.


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## Paul T McGraw (Jun 1, 2018)

Eliot said:


> Amazing. I found it hard to fault. Very impressed by the handling of the strings and tying in the different libraries.



^^^^ This is also my reaction.


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## Mishabou (Jun 1, 2018)

Excellent work. 

What method, midi notes or CC, do you use for switching articulations with CSS ? If it's the latter, are you drawing them in a controller lane or via Touch OSC, Lemur or some other devices ?


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## apessino (Jun 1, 2018)

The sound is just about perfect - amazing skills! 

The big issue (for me) is the tempo. This was obviously played to the metronome, and it feels mechanical.

Prokofiev's classical symphony is relatively regular as a piece (especially the 1st movement), so the issue is not as pronounced as it would be for a romantic piece, for example. Still, it's a bummer since the rest of your rendition is so near perfect.

To reproduce a performance is hard - of course, but luckily there is one program that provides some of the most incredible tools for the job: Cubase. Its tempo mapping tools are the best I've come across. You can come up with the beats however you like... you can play in a MIDI file, a piano reduction, tap a tempo track, an audio file, even a recording of the actual piece. A few clicks and you get 90% of the tempo track created for you. If you need to, you can then use the "tempo warping" tool to then refine the results even more, set the signatures, etc. It is absolutely amazing.

Once you have the tempo track, you can play to the click as you would with the fixed tempo, you can quantize, have external hardware and effects remain in sync, etc.

I have used each of the above techniques at one point or another - here is an old mockup from way back in 2013 when I did of Verdi's beautiful preludio to his opera Attila. For this one I actually used a recording and video of Abbado conducting a live performance and literally STOLE the beats out of it using Cubase then played each part in. Thought about virtually conducting it myself, but he was just a tiny bit more talented.  All EW libraries, and of course it sounds nowhere as good as yours, but the tempo is much more human:



Just something you might want to explore next since you got the sound part nailed.

Cheers!


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## JBacal (Jun 1, 2018)

Excellent Work! Keep them coming!


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## JonesyXL (Jun 1, 2018)

Anhtu said:


> What method, midi notes or CC, do you use for switching articulations with CSS ? If it's the latter, are you drawing them in a controller lane or via Touch OSC, Lemur or some other devices ?





apessino said:


> To reproduce a performance is hard - of course, but luckily there is one program that provides some of the most incredible tools for the job: Cubase



@Anhtu I used Logic's new articulation sets feature with the help of @NoamL's excellent script which actually makes it work properly. Using keyswitches or CC to change articulations so often, sometimes every 8th note, would have made trying to emulate the bowing patterns too much work to even bother with. In Logic now you can select any notes in a region and audition different articulations in a couple of clicks. I think it's actually opened up a load of possibilities of what you can do with good sample libraries, and also made me realise how well CSS is made, besides just having great legato transitions. Sorry if you don't have Logic 

@apessino thanks for the feedback. Your mock up is great btw! You're right, although I did use a few tempo changes, it's by no means close to how much fluctuation in tempo naturally occurs in real performances. Actually, it would have been super easy to do with smart tempo in Logic, but i overlooked it! Something to bear in mind for future projects.


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## NoamL (Jun 1, 2018)

It sounds great. And I'm glad that the fast articulation switching is made more feasible by the script. That's indeed a major problem with sample libraries today, IMO. There's an artificial divison between "longs" and "shorts" that naturally drives our writing in certain directions, whereas classical string writing was always a diverse mix of articulations.

Can you tell me if the strings are layered with other stuff or it's just CSS?


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## JonesyXL (Jun 1, 2018)

Thanks Noam, your script really makes a big difference when it comes to being able to switch articulations so easily. 

Just CSS except for the fast runs at the end which are the prerecorded runs in Albion One.


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## StephenForsyth (Jun 1, 2018)

Phwoar, yeah nothing else to add other than what others have said which is a bit more verb would really set it off. 

Great work!​


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## Mishabou (Jun 1, 2018)

Sorry for the off topic...Is the NoamL script for sale ? Thx


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## NoamL (Jun 1, 2018)

Anhtu said:


> Sorry for the off topic...Is the NoamL script for sale ? Thx



You can download it for free here. It only works for LogicX 10.4 at the moment.


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## Mishabou (Jun 1, 2018)

Wow thx NoamL.

I have not used Logic Pro x in ages but do have a copy on my system. I will definitely check it out as i just got CSS. Thx again!


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## Maxime Luft (Jun 2, 2018)

@JonesyXL Inspiring work! A very clear stereo image and a good example of how virtual instruments have literally to be played before getting an expressive result.


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## Michelob (Jun 4, 2018)

Hi, very impressive... Just to know : could you tell us how much time you spent on it ? 4 ? 5 years ? :D


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## JonesyXL (Jun 4, 2018)

Michelob said:


> Hi, very impressive... Just to know : could you tell us how much time you spent on it ? 4 ? 5 years ? :D



Haha yeah it certainly wasn't fast, although for me - I am painfully slow at finishing tracks - it wasn't too bad. I spent maybe 4 or 5 late nights on it, although since I don't do this professionally and have no deadlines, and I get easily distracted (damn you vi-control) it shouldn't have taken that long. I mentioned this previously, but I wouldn't have bothered to attempt this without the articulation sets in the latest Logic update. It's really sped up the process of doing stuff like this.


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## Michelob (Jun 4, 2018)

So I need to check out into Reaper. I thinks there's something similar about articulations. Congrats anyway.


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## Casiquire (Jun 4, 2018)

Very well done! I have to say the imager in Ozone is really easy to abuse, but...it sounds so good! I don't think you overdid it here. Great work.


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## hdsmile (Oct 1, 2019)

it is very nicely done especially strings section, it’s a pity that I somehow missed it:(


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## Gerald (Oct 1, 2019)

Excellent work!


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## WhiteNoiz (Oct 2, 2019)

It's very well done. The only parts I could really point out as lacking is the crescendos and the finishing/tutti hits which as usual don't really have an impact and don't seem to blend together in real time (lack of waves/surfaces/bodies/interactions/depth/reflections/timbres/interpretation [makes sense]). Also, quite a few unnatural plhrasings I feel. It doesn't breathe a lot. Very quantized (dynamics also sound a bit limited/compressed, in range, not necessarily in volume; the timbres don't really change too much). Quite a bit can be said if you wanna nitpick, but a good effort nonetheless.

Examples: 0:03, 0:12, 0:22, 0:31, 0:49, 1:17, 1:36+


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## Steve Martin (Oct 3, 2019)

Well done, great mockup skills here. Beautifully done! A really great musicallity in your rendition of this music! Thanks for sharing this


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