# Orchestral Tools Metropolis Ark 4 - Elite Orchestral Forces



## Fry777

OT just posted this on their Facebook page :







The graphical style is definitely reminiscent of the previous Arks...

What do you guys think ?


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## NathanTiemeyer

I hope this means something and it isn't just a picture of a dude sitting there


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## Netrex

Metropolis Ark 4: C3PO


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## Karl Feuerstake

Fry777 said:


> OT just posted this on their Facebook page :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The graphical style is definitely reminiscent of the previous Arks...
> 
> What do you guys think ?



The art, like the previous arks, is definitely referencing the film Metropolis, so I think its likely


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## Karl Feuerstake

Netrex said:


> Metropolis Ark 4: C3PO


C3P0's appearance was inspired by the robot in Metropolis (1927)


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## James Marshall

Netrex said:


> Metropolis Ark 4: C3PO


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## Netrex

James Marshall said:


>


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## HelixK




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## Karl Feuerstake

Looks like an actual set they built; that's some promotional content!


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## HBen

So, a female C3PO.....Metropolis Ark 4: C3PO Queen.


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## Lassi Tani

HelixK said:


>


4 on the wall spotted!


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## zolhof

sekkosiki said:


> 4 on the wall spotted!



Sir, please update your avatar:


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## Fry777

So, what do you think this Ark is going to cover ? 
A while ago I said "The Choir Orchestra", let's see


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## HBen

Fry777 said:


> So, what do you think this Ark is going to cover ?
> A while ago I said "The Choir Orchestra", let's see



Robotic and Metallic Percussion?


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## HelixK

Fry777 said:


> So, what do you think this Ark is going to cover ?
> A while ago I said "The Choir Orchestra", let's see



Whatever it is, I need a price, release date, walkthrough videos and a review by @Cory Pelizzari


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## ka00

I love how OT is massively prolific these days. Time Macro, Glory Days, all these monumental sales, and seemingly now Ark IV all in a relatively short period of time.


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## Goldie Zwecker

Judging from the current sales, whatever it's going to be - buying it now wouldn't be the smartest thing to do.


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## Lassi Tani

zolhof said:


> Sir, please update your avatar:



Thank you sir, I updated it.

It might be choir, since they could've utilized the choir recording sessions for Time Macro, which includes lots of choir patches. It also might include brass, because of Glory Days, for the same reason as above. Well I don't know, if any developer does that, but it would make sense, since the recording sessions cost quite a bit.


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## Mikro93

Don't mind me, I'm just here for the gorgeous pictures. Who needs Ark 4 anyway?


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## ka00

Goldie Zwecker said:


> Judging from the current sales, whatever it's going to be - buying it now wouldn't be the smartest thing to do.



Although, their pre-order pricing is usually quite good too.


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## Cory Pelizzari

HelixK said:


> Whatever it is, I need a price, release date, walkthrough videos and a review by @Cory Pelizzari


If I can afford it. I'm not sure they'd send little ol' me a review copy to be honest.


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## jbuhler

I’m shocked and really wasn’t expecting this, especially after the big sale with NI.


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## HelixK

sekkosiki said:


> Thank you sir, I updated it.
> 
> It might be choir, since they could've utilized the choir recording sessions for Time Macro, which includes lots of choir patches. It also might include brass, because of Glory Days, for the same reason as above. Well I don't know, if any developer does that, but it would make sense, since the recording sessions cost quite a bit.



Real talk now, that's what I'm hoping for... and if it turns out to be a choir, my only wish is that it has all the traditional stuff covered (and I mean *ALL *of it, no compromises) instead of just focusing on epic or minimalistic or experimental...


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## zimm83

sekkosiki said:


> 4 on the wall spotted!


Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh: MY PRECIOUS........
MA4
Love you Orchestral Tools !!!!!!
I knew it will Come !!!!

Robot: means hybrid stuff ....i think...
Orchestral and synth.....


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## Breaker

Interesting. I wonder what this could be and how much it will overlap the three previous Arks. 
For me MA3 was already a bit of a niche library.


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## jbuhler

zimm83 said:


> Robot: means hybrid stuff ....i think...
> Orchestral and synth.....


The robot in Metropolis is evil, but also associated with jazz (especially saxophones) and decadent nightclub culture in Huppertz score and the film. Not that the Arks have really taken much inspiration from the score to the film.


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## ChazC

The intro price point will be interesting. From not doing any sales apart from intro pricing they've changed their marketing completely. Now with this latest NI offer going on it does make buying from OT at intro price a gamble now. Bit of a shame really. 

Glory Days is one of those libraries I'd really like but not need. With the sales they've been doing I passed on the intro & if it's on sale at some point in the future I may well pick it up. 

Back before the OT sales started appearing I'd have bought it at intro as that used to be the only discount going - you knew exactly where you stood. Look at the mess Arturia have created with their latest price point of V6 after everything they spouted last year about the lowest it would ever be etc.


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## zimm83

H


jbuhler said:


> The robot in Metropolis is evil, but also associated with jazz (especially saxophones) and decadent nightclub culture in Huppertz score and the film. Not that the Arks have really taken much inspiration from the score to the film.


Hope it's Not jazz.....


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## zimm83

HelixK said:


> Real talk now, that's what I'm hoping for... and if it turns out to be a choir, my only wish is that it has all the traditional stuff covered (and I mean *ALL *of it, no compromises) instead of just focusing on epic or minimalistic or experimental...


This would be....Berlin Choirs...no ?


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## jadedsean

zimm83 said:


> Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh: MY PRECIOUS........
> MA4
> Love you Orchestral Tools !!!!!!
> I knew it will Come !!!!
> 
> Robot: means hybrid stuff ....i think...
> Orchestral and synth.....



I also concur, I really don't think this will not be a choir library because MA1 & MA2 both contain choirs, granted they are not as deep as other dedicated choir libraries but still excellent for what they offer. This leads me to believe hybrid stuff would be a real possibility. I'm already excited


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## galactic orange

Robot sitting alone...
Logical two-degree connection with Han Solo...
This could only indicate one thing: A solo library of some sort.

Robot is humanoid, so obviously a choir:

=Fully sampled Speak & Spell soloist.


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## jbuhler

zimm83 said:


> Hope it's Not jazz.....


It could have a focus on upper woodwinds for the orchestra district. That’s been lacking in the other Arks.


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## zimm83

Last year they teased Ma3 on 7/12 for a 21/12 release.
Exact timing this year : tease 6/12 for a 20/12 release !!!
Great.


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## zimm83

galactic orange said:


> Robot sitting alone...
> Logical two-degree connection with Han Solo...
> This could only indicate one thing: A solo library of some sort.
> 
> Robot is humanoid, so obviously a choir:
> 
> =Fully sampled Speak & Spell soloist.


Yes...a solo orchestra....Great idea... Great!!!


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## HelixK

zimm83 said:


> Last year they teased Ma3 on 7/12 for a 21/12 release.
> Exact timing this year : tease 6/12 for a 20/12 release !!!
> Great.



What about a real announcement, you have a date?


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## Breaker

Previous announcments:
Dec 4 2015 Friday
Dec 6 2016 Tuesday
Dec 8 2017 Friday


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## lucor

Really wonder what this one will be about. 1 was loud, 2 was quiet, 3 was rhythmic. Maybe 4 will be more textural and FX, like Albion IV?


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## HelixK

Breaker said:


> Previous announcments:
> Dec 4 2015 Friday
> Dec 6 2016 Tuesday
> Dec 8 2017 Friday



So... see you all next Monday?


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## jbuhler

zimm83 said:


> Yes...a solo orchestra....Great idea... Great!!!


I can’t see them doing woodwind solo instruments. I think they’ll be ensembles (a3, a4) if they go this route. Maybe solo voice like Jaeger. I think choir of some sort is likely.


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## zimm83

jbuhler said:


> I can’t see them doing woodwind solo instruments. I think they’ll be ensembles (a3, a4) if they go this route. Maybe solo voice like Jaeger. I think choir of some sort is likely.


Opéra ?......


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## Loïc D

(echoes from Spitfire summer threads)
This might be the choir library !


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## Floris

Their new banner shows "Metropolis ARK 4 Elite orchestral forces"
Very interesting!


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## ChrisSiuMusic

3 libraries within 3 months!? Damn OT :D


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## Parsifal666

I've GOT it! The Richard Wagner Orchestral and Chorale Toolkit!





ewps, sorry, wrong developer.


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## zimm83

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> 3 libraries within 3 months!? Damn OT :D


Yes that's why we love them!!!
But What can this be? Élite???


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## zimm83

zimm83 said:


> Yes that's why we love them!!!
> But What can this be? Élite???


fffff ? Forti-fortissimo ??


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## jbuhler

LowweeK said:


> (echoes from Spitfire summer threads)
> This might be the choir library !


I doubt this will be a choir library. I’m hopeful there will be a choir “district.”


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## zimm83

zimm83 said:


> fffff ? Forti-fortissimo ??


Military????


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## HelixK




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## zimm83

HelixK said:


>


Reminds me of Star Wars..............but really really can't imagine what this can be ..compared to the 3 other arks....


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## AllanH

This will be interesting. If history is a guide, they should announce by Monday at the latest.


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## MartinH.

Floris said:


> Their new banner shows "Metropolis ARK 4 Elite orchestral forces"



Maybe sampled runs and orchestral ornaments that would fit into a Star Wars soundtrack?


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## Parsifal666

MartinH. said:


> Maybe sampled runs and orchestral ornaments that would fit into a Star Wars soundtrack?



Boy, I can't wait to miss something like that!


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## zimm83

MartinH. said:


> Maybe sampled runs and orchestral ornaments that would fit into a Star Wars soundtrack?


Yes.....


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## HelixK

Mmmmm... elite... top players... forces... a globe that resembles the Death Star... this?


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## Parsifal666

HelixK said:


> Mmmmm... elite... top players... forces... a globe that resembles the Death Star... this?


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## HelixK

Seriously though, could be somthing on the ethnic/world side... elite players joining forces...


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## KallumS

Elite Orchestral Forces makes me think of solo instruments...


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## Land of Missing Parts

These shadows make no lighting sense at all.


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## tokatila




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## shawnsingh

so maybe I'm missing something, but I think this robot is from Metropolis, not Star Wars?


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## zimm83

tokatila said:


>


EXCELLENT.!!!!!


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## Taj Mikel

Anyone seen anything about a release date?


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## zimm83

shawnsingh said:


> so maybe I'm missing something, but I think this robot is from Metropolis, not Star Wars?


Of course......but. Élite forces......hummmm


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## Parsifal666

HelixK said:


> Seriously though, could be somthing on the ethnic/world side... elite players joining forces...



I also can't wait to miss that.



lol! 

Seriously, I'm pretty darn curious as to where OT will go orchestrally. I've been kind of turned off 3 from the comments here, so I'll definitely be checking in as this develops.

One thing is for sure: I'm an OT convert!


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## zimm83

Parsifal666 said:


> I also can't wait to miss that.
> 
> 
> 
> lol!
> 
> Seriously, I'm pretty darn curious as to where OT will go orchestrally. I've been kind of turned off 3 from the comments here, so I'll definitely be checking in as this develops.
> 
> One thing is for sure: I'm an OT convert!


+ 1


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## ka00

shawnsingh said:


> so maybe I'm missing something, but I think this robot is from Metropolis, not Star Wars?



Now, before we go jumping to any conclusions...


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## Jaap

Number 4 is all about 3 it seems 

Edit: preorder price is €349 and release 19 December

More info here: http://orchestraltools.com/libraries/metropolis_ark_4.php


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## galactic orange

KallumS said:


> Elite Orchestral Forces makes me think of solo instruments...


It could be something like that or maybe combinations we haven’t seen like two horns, for example, that could be added like a “spice” to the other Arks.


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## Goldie Zwecker

Ark 3 was introduced a year ago or so. Now it's on sale for 50%. My guess is that even with an intro price it's not going to get there. 
Unless...
all this current sale would be to give people who purchased OT products an additional loyalty discount or something. We will know soon. Not to mention knowing what this is to begin with.


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## Parsifal666

Goldie Zwecker said:


> Not to mention knowing what this is to begin with.



+1


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## lucor

http://orchestraltools.com/resources/documents/Metropolis_Ark_4.pdf

Full articulation & instrument list.


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## galactic orange

need an instrument/articulation list!

Edit: Beat me by a minute!


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## John Busby

I suppose we can now remove the ? from the thread title


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## HelixK

More orchestral colors... cool! Sounds like a great introduction to someone who does not own any of the Arks.


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## kavinsky




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## Goldie Zwecker

Seems like the intro price of €349 , if you compare it to ark 1 or 3 full price of €549, is not 50% but not that far from it.


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## galactic orange

I almost called the piccolo flute combo. Extreme!


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## quantum7

The demo sure sounds good!


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## Land of Missing Parts

At first glance I'm noticing lots of legatos, sustains, and shorts.

Listening to the first demo, it sounds like there's both quiet and loud.

Previous Arks have more limited articulations and dynamics.

Power legato?


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## DivingInSpace

Goldie Zwecker said:


> Seems like the intro price of €349 , if you compare it to ark 1 or 3 full price of €549, is not 50% but not that far from it.


Honestly, that would be a lot to expect anyways.


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## MChangoM

Not sure if this is for me, but the trailer is brilliant, visually and musically. Kudos!


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## whiskers

sekkosiki said:


> 4 on the wall spotted!


solid attention to detail


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## sostenuto

With only Ark1 … would I forego Ark3 (on-sale) for this Ark4 Pre-Order? Have good Perc, soooo …… ?


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## jamwerks

Looks Interesting!

Too bad though they still aren't offering any mixed mic positions. So it's always 2 or 3 times more cpu & ram...


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## cadenzajon

Assuming "power legato" is where sustains&transitions are both at a level of intensity that is beyond what could naturally be crossfaded in a pp-ff legato patch.


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## blougui

shawnsingh said:


> so maybe I'm missing something, but I think this robot is from Metropolis, not Star Wars?


Lucas and McQuarie heavily borrowed Metropolis robot's design for their C3PO.


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## Wally Garten

Wow. Interesting! Seems like the focus is on cool instrument combos, kinda like BHCT. Color me super curious.


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## Bluemount Score

This thread was way too fun to read already :D
OT is making some serious attention these days!


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## ChrisSiuMusic

Sascha is a genius. He does all the CGI and trailers for OT, so I wouldn’t be surprised if he did the graphic design for this poster as well. He really does know how to build hype, that’s for sure.


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## zimm83

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> Sascha is a genius. He does all the CGI and trailers for OT, so I wouldn’t be surprised if he did the graphic design for this poster as well. He really does know how to build hype, that’s for sure.


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## zimm83

OT are genius!!!


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## DSmolken

Seems perfect for making indie pop music sound really high budget. Not the indended use, I'm sure, but...


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## whiskers

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> Sascha is a genius. He does all the CGI and trailers for OT, so I wouldn’t be surprised if he did the graphic design for this poster as well. He really does know how to build hype, that’s for sure.


Is he related to Geoff Knorr by any chance? I doubt it, but figured I'd ask.


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## KallumS

Land of Missing Parts said:


> At first glance I'm noticing lots of legatos, sustains, and shorts.
> 
> Listening to the first demo, it sounds like there's both quiet and loud.
> 
> Previous Arks have more limited articulations and dynamics.
> 
> Power legato?



Website says its pianississimo to fortississimo.


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## artomatic

Oh boy, another temptation! 
This has been the most expensive "Black Friday" season to date, AFAIC.
Will probably succumb, based on the trailer alone.


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## JT

These marketing people are genius. A week ago, I had no OT products and was quite happy. They came along with this great sale on the Arks, so I went for it. Too good to pass up. Now I'm wanting 4 too. How can they manipulate me so much?


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## jbuhler

High ensemble woodwinds, a choir district—I got those calls right. I was going to add muted brass, which shows up to some degree. Some of the combination patches remind me a bit of the approach in Spitfire's BHCT library.


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## sostenuto

jbuhler said:


> High ensemble woodwinds, a choir district—I got those calls right. I was going to add muted brass, which shows up to some degree. Some of the combination patches remind me a bit of the approach in Spitfire's BHCT library.



Somewhat of a SF fan .. early-on … and BHCT keeps coming up in these Ark comments.
Dang …. I hope to be chagrined when SF finally does something during holidays …. but , for me, their Mktg leaves a lot to be desired …….. 

Won't matter much if $$$$ are all expended ….


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## Parsifal666

jbuhler said:


> Some of the combination patches remind me a bit of the approach in Spitfire's BHCT library.



Definitely one of the most charming things about that wonderful library imo. I like that there are trills, bass oboe is seriously cool. I don't know if this would be a good first library, but for a shot of composing inspiration I'm confident this will more than hit the mark. 

Darn...now I'm broke lol. This is tempting at the price, moreso to me than 3.


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## Consona

BHCT was the first thing that popped into my mind when reading the articulation list. The library sounds great but I'm still not convinced by this combination patches approach. That's literally the only thing that stopped me from buying BHCT, since I love the sound of it.


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## richardt4520

Consona said:


> That's literally the only thing that stopped me from buying BHCT, since I love the sound of it.



Same here. I hope they post more demos or a playthrough up before the sale ends but I'm not holding my breath. I have the sounds in the previous Arks covered pretty well but the demo for Ark 4 has that old 30s/40s sound, imo, that I adore


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## TrondB

I agree that this is, if not a nod to, definitely the same concept that was behind BHCT. I'll probably get this because of that alone. And it sounds really good. Well done OT.

If people are still unsure about the BHCT because of the combo-patches, I say go for it. It 'forces' you out of the box on certain things. And that is a good thing.


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## Raphioli

Consona said:


> BHCT was the first thing that popped into my mind when reading the articulation list. The library sounds great but I'm still not convinced by this combination patches approach. That's literally the only thing that stopped me from buying BHCT, since I love the sound of it.



The pros about combination patches is that, I'm not sure how to say this but, 
the samples capture the instruments resonating/affecting each other.
Something you won't get just by layering samples and using a reverb to blend them.
(its something like layering solo 4 horn patches won't sound the same as a sampled horn ensemble.)
The cons is, you're limited to that instrumentation/orchestration.


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## WindcryMusic

It must be just me that thinks some of the samples in the teaser sound almost synthetic or over-compressed (edit: the brass sustains, mainly), and not at all like what I normally expect out of OT. To be frank, right now it feels to me like I'll most likely be getting off of the Metropolis train at stop #4 ... which might be for the best, since money is becoming an issue as well and even the intro price would be kind of painful.

In any event, I've still got Time Macro to spend my time exploring (a library which I absolutely love).


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## Parsifal666

TrondB said:


> If people are still unsure about the BHCT because of the combo-patches, I say go for it. It 'forces' you out of the box on certain things. And that is a good thing.



I loved those patches not just because they were like that, but because they helped me understand better the orchestrational habits of somebody considered by a good portion of people the Greatest Film Score Composer of All Time. I took what was there and made it my own (of course, I had hella fun pretending to be Bernard and making up Vertigo and Fahrenheit 451-worshipping pieces lol!).


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## MartinH.

At first sight Ark 4 looks like an easy pass to me, which comes as a (financial) relief, so I don't think I want to look too closely at it x]


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## DR BOOWHO

I remember last year they offered an extra 50 off for existing metro owners which I cant see this time...I picked up all of them at the intro price thinking there would never be a better time..Looks like there is no need to buy straight away as can pick them up in the sales later.....As George Bush once said ...... fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again : )


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## Olfirf

DR BOOWHO said:


> I remember last year they offered an extra 50 off for existing metro owners which I cant see this time...I picked up all of them at the intro price thinking there would never be a better time..Looks like there is no need to buy straight away as can pick them up in the sales later.....As George Bush once said ...... fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again : )


Yeah, the recent sale makes it way easier to resist, doesn't it?


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## whiskers

waiting for a walkthrough and song demos before I even think about it but initial thoughts:

* Seems to cover a lot of similar ground as Ark 2-3. If i got Ark 3 as well, I don't know how much I'd need this. Definitely sounds good though.
* If they did stack a Ark voucher with the preorder price that might make it very tempting
* I'd be curious to compare the choir patches between Ark 2, 4, and Time Macro


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## whiskers

I also wonder, if you ordered Ark 1 & 2 on NI, like I did, if that would potentially not include the voucher that several have mentioned. Who knows.


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## sostenuto

With both BO_Inspires and TM, quite hesitant and couple weeks to monitor additional info here.
Somewhat like crummy NI policy with Vouchers, cannot use either BO_Inspire _100Euro_ Codes, even though potential purchases now can total almost $1,200. 
I'm not pleased and this does impact short-term purchases, for sure ….


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## Bansi

On the OT site I listened with electrostatic cans to all the demos of ark 1 2 and 4 and definitely Ark 4 sounds cleaner on the bottom end to my ears, more focused and detailed.I don't have any of these libraries so maybe is just the quality of the demo that is improved. What do you think?


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## dzilizzi

I probably won't get this now, as I am a hobbyist. But then again, I do have some extra money this Christmas, so who knows. 

For those who want it but are upset at the recent sales, the pre-price calculates out to a savings of just over 36%. Not quite the 40% of the BF deals, but almost there. I doubt they will have another sale as low as this NI sale, since this relates to the recent NKS sales. I'm guessing NI makes some sort of deal to get these prices. So maybe next BF they might have a sale at 40% on this? But you will pay 4% to have an extra year. 

And? Who knows what the future holds...


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## whiskers

Bansi said:


> On the OT site I listened with electrostatic cans to all the demos of ark 1 2 and 4 and definitely Ark 4 sounds cleaner on the bottom end to my ears, more focused and detailed.I don't have any of these libraries so maybe is just the quality of the demo that is improved. What do you think?



I think it's quite possible the source audio was compressed on their site (I have no idea) so I'm not sure how much of an indicator you can use that as, until you see walkthroughs to listen to sample noise. I don't know though.


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## Michael Antrum

Is there anyone at all with any money left......?



sostenuto said:


> With both BO_Inspires and TM, quite hesitant and couple weeks to monitor additional info here.
> Somewhat like crummy NI policy with Vouchers, cannot use either BO_Inspire _100Euro_ Codes, even though potential purchases now can total almost $1,200.
> I'm not pleased and this does impact short-term purchases, for sure ….



I think you'll find that if you order direct from the OT website and put multiple items in the cart that total more than 600 euro, that you'll be able to use your 100 euro voucher.


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## ChazC

I love #1, #2, #3 and TIME but with the recent OT sales, no loyalty discount (and a bit of a ‘meh’ feeling about the trailer if I’m honest) I’d have to see a pretty thorough walkthrough before even considering it I’m afraid.


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## Soundhound

Is there a way to find out if you have any OT vouchers aside from going through emails from them? There's no customer/account part of their website I don't think?


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## whiskers

ChazC said:


> I’d have to see a pretty thorough walkthrough before even considering it I’m afraid.


To me that seems just sane. To preorder without such items, regardless of how much you trust/love the developer, seems foolhardy to me. I wish they would have these items out before the preorders started. Or the day of. We, as potential customers, would like to know what we're getting, and have some time to consider it. I'm sure these things will come though.


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## Lode_Runner

So still no Nosferatu library then


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## jbuhler

It looks like Capsule has been redesigned a bit from some of the GUI screenshots in the articulation list.


whiskers said:


> To me that seems just sane. To preorder without such items, regardless of how much you trust/love the developer, seems foolhardy to me. I wish they would have these items out before the preorders started. Or the day of. We, as potential customers, would like to know what we're getting, and have some time to consider it. I'm sure these things will come though.


All OT releases this fall have been handled this way, and the walkthroughs have come very close to the time that the pre-order expires. The materials right now consist only of the one demo posted on the website. Seems weird. If I didn't have the materials ready, I would have teased the thing for a couple of days so I could drop more stuff with the official announcement.


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## procreative

Lode_Runner said:


> So still no Nosferatu library then



No but you can make do with a track from my old band from 26 years ago:


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## whiskers

jbuhler said:


> It looks like Capsule has been redesigned a bit from some of the GUI screenshots in the articulation list.
> 
> All OT releases this fall have been handled this way, and the walkthroughs have come very close to the time that the pre-order expires. The materials right now consist only of the one demo posted on the website. Seems weird. If I didn't have the materials ready, I would have teased the thing for a couple of days so I could drop more stuff with the official announcement.



Completely agree. Not having to be down-to-the-wire on the preorder price to make a decision would give customers a lot more peace of mind.


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## whiskers

procreative said:


> No but you can make do with a track from my old band from 26 years ago:




This seems like it'd fit well in the soundtrack to the movie _The Guest. _Don't know why, but it has that vibe.


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## tim727

Am I the only one not really very intrigued by this? It doesn't seem to offer much that you can't already achieve by simply layering other OT libs (or libs from other devs of course). I mean I can always layer a horn and a flute if I want to ... why do I need them to do it for me? I'm not trying to be negative, just genuinely curious what the main incentive to purchase would be here. All three Arks so far I think brought something unique to the table ... as did Time Macro. This library doesn't quite seem to be doing that ... or at least not nearly to the same extent as its predecessors. But who knows, maybe my tune will change after seeing the walkthrough.


----------



## ysnyvz

tim727 said:


> All three Arks so far I think brought something unique to the table ... as did Time Macro. This library doesn't quite seem to be doing that ... or at least not nearly to the same extent as its predecessors. But who knows, maybe my tune will change after seeing the walkthrough.


This one brings small sections with big dynamic ranges.


----------



## tim727

ysnyvz said:


> This one brings small sections with big dynamic ranges.



That's an accurate and adequate answer to the question I asked, but I guess it just seems that the value that the prior Arks brought, especially 1 and 2, was a lot greater. (Based on the info I have so far)


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

tim727 said:


> That's an accurate and adequate answer to the question I asked, but I guess it just seems that the value that the prior Arks brought, especially 1 and 2, was a lot greater. (Based on the info I have so far)


:emoji_star2::emoji_star2::emoji_star2::emoji_saxophone::emoji_violinooooower Legaaaaaato!:emoji_violin::emoji_trumpet::emoji_star2::emoji_star2::emoji_star2:


----------



## NoamL

lucor said:


> http://orchestraltools.com/resources/documents/Metropolis_Ark_4.pdf
> 
> Full articulation & instrument list.



Looks like it's halfway between being *"Metropolis Ark 1 First Desks"* (extreme dynamics, same general setups as Ark1 with smaller 1-2 desk sections) and *"Berlin Inspire 1 Deluxe."* (the woodwind and brass combos, but even more unique, plus full pp-ff range).

Much like the Albions+SSO+everything else that Spitfire does in AIR, OT's lineup is starting to get to the point of duplication, but each individual product still sounds interesting... I think it's a matter of deciding what you really need not just hopping on whatever's on sale. For both companies, btw.


----------



## jamwerks

Pretty sure the Berlin Inspire combos were after-the-fact mixdowns, whereas these were recorded together.

If this Flute, Oboe & Clarinet combo is nice, that alone might make this worth it!


----------



## babylonwaves

Goldie Zwecker said:


> Seems like the intro price of €349 , if you compare it to ark 1 or 3 full price of €549, is not 50% but not that far from it.


Exactly. And that’s why I don’t get why some ask for a loyalty discount. This -is- a deep discount, much deeper that the usual intro offers. A big thanks to OT is in order.


----------



## jbuhler

babylonwaves said:


> Exactly. And that’s why I don’t get why some ask for a loyalty discount. This -is- a deep discount, much deeper that the usual intro offers. A big thanks to OT is in order.


 Ark 3 was 299€ if you owned Ark 1 or 2. Introductory price otherwise was 349€. So, no, it is exactly the offer they made last year, except no loyalty discount.


----------



## babylonwaves

jbuhler said:


> Ark 3 was 299€ if you owned Ark 1 or 2. Introductory price otherwise was 349€. So, no, it is the exactly the offer they made last year, except no loyalty discount


It is still a great offer. And one loyalty discount doesn’t mean that there will be one the next time.


----------



## jbuhler

babylonwaves said:


> It is still a great offer. And one loyalty discount doesn’t mean that there will be one the next time.


There were loyalty discounts for both Ark 2 and Ark 3. I didn't say I was expecting a loyalty discount. I was pointing out that the previous Arks had been available at a significantly higher discount to owners of the previous libraries whereas you claimed that this discount was much deeper than their usual intro offer. That simply isn't true. This is their usual intro offer for the Arks and it is less generous to existing owners.


----------



## babylonwaves

jbuhler said:


> whereas you claimed that this discount was much deeper than their usual intro offer.


 I wrote „the usual intro offers“, not „their usual intro offers“ … in other words I was comparing to the rest of the market. Hope that clears it up


----------



## AdamKmusic

Sounds really great, I wish OT would list the price with VAT included though!


----------



## sostenuto

Saw Ark4 being called ' Power Chamber ' …… if this is serious, what would be main points separating it from
Spitfire _ SCS ? SCS has been main target waiting for Holiday promo(s). 
Even with major discount, SCS would still be pricier that Ark 4 Pre-order.


----------



## ka00

sostenuto said:


> Saw Ark4 being called ' Power Chamber ' …… if this is serious, what would be main points separating it from
> Spitfire _ SCS ? SCS has been main target waiting for Holiday promo(s).
> Even with major discount, SCS would still be pricier that Ark 4 Pre-order.



SCS is Strings only. Probably not directly in competition with Ark 4 for mainly that reason.

Listen to the variety of instruments you hear in the trailer demo. Then listen to SCS demos. I think they are different enough that each should be weighed on their own merits and your own intended uses.


----------



## RandomComposer

sostenuto said:


> Saw Ark4 being called ' Power Chamber ' …… if this is serious, what would be main points separating it from
> Spitfire _ SCS ? SCS has been main target waiting for Holiday promo(s).
> Even with major discount, SCS would still be pricier that Ark 4 Pre-order.


I don't think you can compare them, Ark 4 is mostly dealing with combinations of instruments, while SCS is a focussed effort on individual chamber string sections.


----------



## sostenuto

ka00 said:


> SCS is Strings only. Probably not directly in competition with Ark 4 for mainly that reason. ************ .



Yes  Knee-jerk post after seeing the 'Power Chamber' comment on Comm Thread.

So something more like the oft mentioned BHTC ?


----------



## ka00

sostenuto said:


> So something more like the oft mentioned BHTC ?



Yes, BHCT and ARK4 seem like good libraries to compare and contrast. Walkthroughs will help.


----------



## whiskers

Land of Missing Parts said:


> :emoji_star2::emoji_star2::emoji_star2::emoji_saxophone::emoji_violinooooower Legaaaaaato!:emoji_violin::emoji_trumpet::emoji_star2::emoji_star2::emoji_star2:


There seems to be some perceived marketing need to hype up legato.

Legato > real legato > true legato > ... > POWER LEGATO??!?

Hahaha it's just so amusing. Hopefully they'll explain this in the walkthrough


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

maybe they meant exaggerated legato; like portamento but in disguise.


----------



## Goldie Zwecker

sostenuto said:


> Yes  Knee-jerk post after seeing the 'Power Chamber' comment on Comm Thread.
> 
> So something more like the oft mentioned BHTC ?


One big technical difference is that BHCT is 110GB of material and ARK 4 is 45GB. Yes, i know size doesn't always matter or means anything, but in the case of BHCT it is a huge and vast library with numerous instruments, instrument combinations, each with lots of articulations and mic positions (the mic positions could be the reason for the extra GB in size). In BHCT the mic positions are more than your usual recording angle. It totally changes the instruments balance in the combis, so with one mic position you can get more of the strings and almost no brass, or vice versa and lots of other combinations. It is so vast i haven't really finished going thru all that it has to offer.

As for ARK 4, time will tell. There wasn't a proper walkthrough yet.
I think the timing of this release is totally deliberate, building on the euphoria created by their current sales - in hope more people will buy ark 4 on an impulse, or from a "serial urge" to complete the series. People, 5 minutes ago you didn't even know this library existed. I think i'll wait till next year - and not just because there might be a better price (i bet there will be) but because a year from now there will be more walkthroughs, demos and "in use" videos etc that will give a full picture of what this library really has to offer beyond the initial marketing hype.


----------



## DSmolken

whiskers said:


> There seems to be some perceived marketing need to hype up legato.
> 
> Legato > real legato > true legato > ... > POWER LEGATO??!?
> 
> Hahaha it's just so amusing. Hopefully they'll explain this in the walkthrough


What next, the people's democratic legato?


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

During the "Guessing session" of Metropolis Ark 3 :






I'm pretty sure @Saxer and I gave them the idea. We're waiting for our free copies.


----------



## tim727

DSmolken said:


> What next, the people's democratic legato?



That's one of the funnier comments I've read in my time on vi-control.


----------



## zimm83

In the artics pdf we can see that the Gui has been changed.......new Capsule version?


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

If it's a "major update" for CAPSULE, fingers crossed for a better RAM management.


----------



## Batrawi

Power legato seems to me like some sort of an agressive, bow change/ marcato legato


----------



## Parsifal666

DSmolken said:


> What next, the people's democratic legato?



Filthy Imperialist Pig Legato.


----------



## MartinH.

whiskers said:


> Legato > real legato > true legato > ... > POWER LEGATO??!?



My prediction is that it's marketing speak for "polyphonic legato" like in the symphony series collection string ensemble or other big string libraries.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

Goldie Zwecker said:


> One big technical difference is that BHCT is 110GB of material and ARK 4 is 45GB. Yes, i know size doesn't always matter or means anything, but in the case of BHCT it is a huge and vast library with numerous instruments, instrument combinations, each with lots of articulations and mic positions (the mic positions could be the reason for the extra GB in size). In BHCT the mic positions are more than your usual recording angle. It totally changes the instruments balance in the combis, so with one mic position you can get more of the strings and almost no brass, or vice versa and lots of other combinations. It is so vast i haven't really finished going thru all that it has to offer.



oh yeah, BHCT.

checks WL.


----------



## Goldie Zwecker

Zoot_Rollo said:


> oh yeah, BHCT.
> 
> checks WL.


What's "WL"...?


----------



## tim727

MartinH. said:


> My prediction is that it's marketing speak for "polyphonic legato" like in the symphony series collection string ensemble or other big string libraries.



I think that's highly unlikely, partly because if you look at the articulations list there is also "Power Sustains". I think there's a good chance that the "power" in the name implies upper dynamics. So "power legato" would be a legato patch where perhaps you can't go below let's say mezzoforte ... and likewise "power sustain" would be an analogous sustain patch. That's my best guess anyway.


----------



## DavidY

Goldie Zwecker said:


> What's "WL"...?


I'm going to guess "Wish List" on the Spitfire website. 
There could well be a promotion around Christmas where you can get items on your wish list at a discount... in fact it's a good reminder and I'm checking mine now.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

DavidY said:


> I'm going to guess "Wish List" on the Spitfire website.
> There could well be a promotion around Christmas where you can get items on your wish list at a discount... in fact it's a good reminder and I'm checking mine now.



yes, that's what i was referring to.


----------



## Saxer

Second OT library with a single demo track... I hope they'll come up with a bit more before rising the preorder/intro price.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

I must admit, I crack up laughing after I reading some of the terminology like *Pow-->er *legato and EXTREME dynamics. Reads a bit like for 15 year old highschool kids, so its exactly for me the right library, because I think I can write finally good melodies when I have a power legato function. However, the demo sounded really good, stellar production.


----------



## zimm83

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> I must admit, I crack up laughing after I reading some of the terminology like *Pow-->er *legato and EXTREME dynamics. Reads a bit like for 15 year old highschool kids, so its exactly for me the right library, because I think I can write finally good melodies when I have a power legato function. However, the demo sounded really good, stellar production.


I need to hear the 3 violins legatos and the 3 violas legatos.!!!!


----------



## ism

So its 'super aggressive' epic chamber ensembles? Is that a thing?


----------



## Bansi

zimm83 said:


> I need to hear the 3 violins legatos and the 3 violas legatos.!!!!


+1


----------



## prodigalson

ism said:


> So its 'super aggressive' epic chamber ensembles? Is that a thing?



It is now


----------



## Goldie Zwecker

ism said:


> So its 'super aggressive' epic chamber ensembles? Is that a thing?


I'm not even sure this is the size of a chamber ensemble. Seems even smaller.


----------



## sostenuto

Goldie Zwecker said:


> One big technical difference is that BHCT is 110GB of material and ARK 4 is 45GB. Yes, i know size doesn't always matter or means anything, but in the case of BHCT it is a huge and vast library with numerous instruments, instrument combinations, each with lots of articulations and mic positions (the mic positions could be the reason for the extra GB in size). In BHCT the mic positions are more than your usual recording angle. It totally changes the instruments balance in the combis, so with one mic position you can get more of the strings and almost no brass, or vice versa and lots of other combinations. It is so vast i haven't really finished going thru all that it has to offer. ******************
> As for ARK 4, time will tell.



Late responding to this relevant 'reminder' and comparison. 'Serial urge' definitely gets to the heart of things ... along with Power Legato.  This NI_Ark promo stirred dark forces within, and a lurch to action. 
I am well advised to allow time to clarify what is _offered_ vs _needed_.

Your exploration of BHCT, reminds how much of (3) Albions remains to be discovered. 
Fresh morning, back on track now, and all seems well. 

Thanks and regards


----------



## shawnsingh

ism said:


> So its 'super aggressive' epic chamber ensembles? Is that a thing?


It is for me.  large ensemble patches sometimes lose a bit of bite and crunch and definition.


----------



## Mystic

Ironically I've not even gotten an email yet from OT about this library. Has anyone else?


----------



## whiskers

Mystic said:


> Ironically I've not even gotten an email yet from OT about this library. Has anyone else?



Negative, Ghost Rider


----------



## jononotbono

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> because I think I can write finally good melodies when I have a power legato function



You'll only ever know for sure if you actually do try a power legato function. Go on, try it. It's no good living your life in such a Black cloud of crippling self doubt! haha!


----------



## alanb

Mystic said:


> Ironically I've not even gotten an email yet from OT about this library. Has anyone else?



Yes, yesterday:



> Size may be king in the natural world but sometimes the real power lies beneath the surface. After all, some of the tiniest insects are hardwired to floor a six-ton elephant. This latent symbiotic power comes to the fore in the same way with Metropolis Ark 4 – Elite Orchestral Forces, which integrates various approaches from the previous three collections, performed to perfection by the Metropolis Orchestra.
> 
> *The sections are not small – they are sharply focused* like the Maschinenmenschrobot in Fritz Lang’s Metropolis, all unbridled expressive energy and singularity of purpose. Similarly, the mixed wind sections are not instrumental sections in the conventional sense, but rather special blends of colors that come together to create a broad palette of virtual instrumentation. All performed and mixed in such a way that the listener perceives them as a single sound.
> 
> Just like the oppressive calm before a returning storm, the sound is always powerful and aggressive. The dynamic range goes from pianississimo to fortississimo, but the underlying force and bite is always there – every whisper is a controlled scream.
> This time around, we have special high energy articulations – Power Legato, Martele Sets, Overblown Winds, Overpressure Strings – designed to harness the raw power behind the professional sheen.
> 
> As well as the strong rhythmic and melodic articulation sets, Metropolis Ark 4 provides the building blocks for creating striking orchestral effects and textures. Shaped by their rough surroundings, these sounds are edgy, offbeat and expressionistic.
> Metropolis Ark 4 includes an impressive array of High, Mid and Low String Sections for you to choose from, not to mention 10 Mixed Brass & Woodwinds Sections. With a Melodic Percussion Ensemble, Tuned Timpani & Tom Ensemble and a whole host of Percussion and Drum Ensembles at hand to harness the rhythms. And for that additional emotional charge, there is a Women’s and Men’s Choir at your fingertips.
> 
> *Highlights *
> 
> 
> The Front Row of the Metropolis Series
> Focused Section Sizes
> Ten Unique Woodwind and Brass Blends
> Women and Men Choir
> Extreme Dynamic Ranges
> Extreme Articulations - Overblown / Overpressure
> Introducing Power Legato
> *Specs*
> 
> Kontakt 5.8.1 or free Kontakt Player needed
> 98 GB of Samples (47 GB NCW compressed)
> 24Bit / 48KHz Patches



No promises of loyalty discounts, or attached vouchers, though . . . ;-(


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Mystic said:


> Ironically I've not even gotten an email yet from OT about this library. Has anyone else?


I got an email.


----------



## ism

And 'power legato' - anyone know if that's thing?


----------



## sostenuto

Not expecting 'any' new Lib to be more than a salient addition to many past creations. 
Now trying judiciously to add whatever 'quality' content that seems worthwhile.
Current struggle is _next_ addition. Now using Albions One, Loegria, Tundra _ Inspire 1 /2 /TM /Ark1.
For comparable cost, what complements these most .... ICENI /Ark 2 /Ark 4.
If 'all' could be added .... would do so.
No 'absolute' answers, but many out there can share their impressions ?


----------



## novaburst

I do like the offers from O T from N I very tempting or appealing,

I cant seem to understand what O T are doing with Ark 1, 2 ,3 ,4, is it not a complete orchestra,

What are you guys going for ? are there different instruments or is it some sort of balance in the liberty's you are liking.


----------



## Rap-sody

alanb said:


> Yes, yesterday:
> 
> 
> 
> No promises of loyalty discounts, or attached vouchers, though . . . ;-(


No, and there won't be any. I checked with OT, and there's no additional discount of any kind for Ark users. Bummer and probably deal-breaker for me.


----------



## Mystic

Rap-sody said:


> No, and there won't be any. I checked with OT, and there's no additional discount of any kind for Ark users. Bummer and probably deal-breaker for me.


Ouch, same unless the walkthrough really wows me which I'm thinking at this point it won't.


----------



## jbuhler

sostenuto said:


> Current struggle is _next_ addition. Now using Albions One, Loegria, Tundra _ Inspire 1 /2 /TM /Ark1.
> For comparable cost, what complements these most .... ICENI /Ark 2 /Ark 4


Ark 2 would be a good addition, especially at current discount. Probably wouldn’t be transformational though, only make use of Ark 1 easier. A good sectioned string library would probably be your most useful addition. You also seem lacking in woodwinds, which might be another addition. I remember you saying you had more than this, a lot of sonokinetic libraries, The Orchestra, etc. Then too it depends on what you want to do.


----------



## sostenuto

jbuhler said:


> Ark 2 would be a good addition, especially at current discount. Probably wouldn’t be transformational though, only make use of Ark 1 easier. A good sectioned string library would probably be your most useful addition. You also seem lacking in woodwinds, which might be another addition. I remember you saying you had more than this, a lot of sonokinetic libraries, The Orchestra, etc. Then too it depends on what you want to do.



(_was posting as were you !_) THX ! Ark 2 has felt a solid next step so far. 
Would have liked a NI_Ark2 /3 Bundle  Ark4 is exciting intro, but I honestly have no clue yet how it fits.

Appreciate your guidance. Cannot articulate "what I want to do" as current goal is mainly to fill-out /round-out inventory. No complaints whatsoever with past additions. Was focused for long time on 'main' Orch Libs, but now realizing I see more potential benefit from choices like BHCT, Afflatus, OA Chamber Strings, ...


----------



## jbuhler

Rap-sody said:


> No, and there won't be any. I checked with OT, and there's no additional discount of any kind for Ark users. Bummer and probably deal-breaker for me.


It’s hard to pull the trigger with one demo, dumb descriptions like POWER LEGATO, and a list of articulations even if they offer it at the same price as the other three Arks for owners of other Arks.

I’m having a similar issue with the new SF brass library which went on prerelease with no demos (given the alternative of no demos or no walkthrough I find SF’s approach more useful).


----------



## zimm83

jbuhler said:


> It’s hard to pull the trigger with one demo, dumb descriptions like POWER LEGATO, and a list of articulations even if they offer it at the same price as the other three Arks for owners of other Arks.
> 
> I’m having a similar issue with the new SF brass library which went on prerelease with no demos (given the alternative of no demos or no walkthrough I find SF’s approach more useful).


It's because they all are in a rush.....everything is coming in the next 10 days.......for sure.....just have to wait.....they are still working ....see the MA4 artics pdf TBA : Designed epic multis.....they are still working !!!


----------



## Kony

zimm83 said:


> It's because they all are in a rush


Good point! Whether it's to get a library out before BF, or on BF, or before Christmas etc, it doesn't give me confidence in the product.

I think the only devs who don't rush are Cinematic Studio Series and AudioBro....


----------



## zimm83

Kony said:


> Good point! Whether it's to get a library out before BF, or on BF, or before Christmas etc, it doesn't give me confidence in the product.
> 
> I think the only devs who don't rush are Cinematic Studio Series and AudioBro....


Yes...but i'm confident in OT products. Just wait a few days....


----------



## jbuhler

zimm83 said:


> Yes...but i'm confident in OT products. Just wait a few days....


I'm really not confident, and I have no idea what many of these articulations sound like—nor indeed what the concept of this library really is. We've had one very short demo. And we're supposed to pull the trigger on this in 11 days. OT being a German company, I can't imagine they'll release anything over the weekend...

Then again given how folks are trashing the SF library for somewhat hastily showing their product, OT not showing much at all of theirs may well be the better strategy, at least for a forum like this. Better to have people yelling about nothing than to give them any real notion of what the instrument sounds like.


----------



## zimm83

jbuhler said:


> I'm really not confident, and I have no idea what many of these articulations sound like—nor indeed what the concept of this library really is. We've had one very short demo. And we're supposed to pull the trigger on this in 11 days. OT being a German company, I can't imagine they'll release anything over the weekend...
> 
> Then again given how folks are trashing the SF library for somewhat hastily showing their product, OT not showing much at all of theirs may well be the better strategy, at least for a forum like this. Better to have people yelling about nothing than to give them any real notion of what the instrument sounds like.


The trailer music sounds like.....ark1......BUT the surprise will come....this is a front row library....so chamber size ....meaning details.....making quiet to power sounds.....I'm waiting to hear the 3 violin and also the 3 violas. How detailed the sound will be. 
And i'm confident the power legato will be something....special......hoping...
And choir shouts.....Yeah...and the martelee and ALL the other legato combinations for melody lines.......AND the designed multis.......


----------



## Francis Bourre

Kony said:


> Good point! Whether it's to get a library out before BF, or on BF, or before Christmas etc, it doesn't give me confidence in the product.
> 
> I think the only devs who don't rush are Cinematic Studio Series and AudioBro....



I doubt OT is rushing, they're releasing ARK from year to year, and making an announcement with an audio track is their standard marketing approach. Walkthrough normally comes few days after. I don't see anything different for this campaign. Patience is the key.


----------



## jbuhler

zimm83 said:


> The trailer music sounds like.....ark1......BUT the surprise will come....this is a front row library....so chamber size ....meaning details.....making quiet to power sounds.....I'm waiting to hear the 3 violin and also the 3 violas. How detailed the sound will be.
> And i'm confident the power legato will be something....special......hoping...
> And choir shouts.....Yeah...and the martelee and ALL the other legato combinations for melody lines.......AND the designed multis.......


Yeah, it's about 90% speculation at this point. They'd have done better to just tease it this week and then make the official announcement next week when they were ready with demos and walkthroughs. I think the same is true of SF and their brass library. OT and SF both seem very rushed at this point, and very rushed will likely mean mistakes in the libraries. And how quickly will they fix those mistakes?


----------



## Britpack50

wrong thread but SF Brass walkthrough is out. I'm not the expert but sounds great....


----------



## MartinH.

jbuhler said:


> And how quickly will they fix those mistakes?


The NI SSC has some bugs that apparently never got fixed. I've encountered and reported bugs in other libraries and those won't get fixed either because the libraries are going to be re-released soon anyway. I would be more concerned about whether something will receive bug fixes _at all_, if it's released in a buggy state. Longterm support for libraries doesn't seem to provide good financial ROI, going by the behaviour of some devs. I'm not judging, it's just the conclusion from my observations. 




Britpack50 said:


> wrong thread but SF Brass walkthrough is out. I'm not the expert but sounds great....


Personally not a fan of the room's sound, but thanks for reminding people that there are other brass libraries as well. I was actually considering Project Sam Orchestral Brass classic for a moment last week. But I'll probably try my luck with Ark 1 instead.


----------



## Brian Nowak

Even in my current butthurt state over OT's big sales it has me a bit tempted. I'm not a fan of forced heterogeneous instrument combinations, however. It makes things considerably less flexible in many ways. 

Is it "really" the front line of an Ark orchestra if I have forced heterogeneous combinations in almost every woodwind or brass setting? 

Why not go for it and do a true Ark-style interpretation of more similar instruments, letting users make more of their own orchestration decisions? High winds, mid winds, and low winds with all the "power" stuff would have been pretty killer.

I have other solo instruments and small groups of brass that I can blend with the Arks reasonably well. So unless the demos or walkthrough truly sell how unique this library is, I'm probably not sold. I'm certainly never going to pay 549 Euros for it...


----------



## lumcas

Britpack50 said:


> wrong thread but SF Brass walkthrough is out. I'm not the expert but sounds great....



I'm confused. No offense, but why do you post here a Spitfire library walkthrough when you're clearly aware of the fact that this thread is called "Orchestral Tools Metropolis Ark 4 - Elite Orchestral Forces"? Linking OT library walkthrough in the Spitfire thread wouldn't even cross my mind really. No big deal, just asking.


----------



## Lionel Schmitt

lumcas said:


> I'm confused. No offense, but why do you post here a Spitfire library walkthrough when you're clearly aware of the fact that this thread is called "Orchestral Tools Metropolis Ark 4 - Elite Orchestral Forces"? Linking OT library walkthrough in the Spitfire thread wouldn't even cross my mind really. No big deal, just asking.


Are you from Orchestral Tools?


----------



## Parsifal666

DarkestShadow said:


> Are you from Orchestral Tools?



lol! +1


----------



## Parsifal666

Britpack50 said:


> wrong thread but SF Brass walkthrough is out. I'm not the expert but sounds great....




I'd take the Berlin, EWH, and Arks over this, personally. Not much impressed.


----------



## lumcas

Parsifal666 said:


> lol! +1



Veeery funny no I'm not and since you're asking I like and use products from both developers and I'm a big fan of both. And I wouldn't probably mind that much a link to any Albion walkthrough, but SF Brass is an entirely different beast with a different approach and purpose. But as I said it's not a big of a deal. I could've also ask if Britpack50 works for Spitfire but I just didn't feel like it.


----------



## Raphioli

I pretty much agree with what @jbuhler is saying on this page.

OT basically started a pre-order period with just a teaser.
So at this point we can only make assumptions. And I would be surprised if they increased the pre-order price before releasing an in-depth walkthrough.
And I also prefer a "walkthrough only" rather than a "demo only" pre-order period.

Its best to have both, but if I had to make a choice, it would be a walkthrough.
You get a more in-depth look at the sound of the individual patches/articulations.
And with a walkthrough video, we might also been able to get some info on their "Power Legato". (TBH, they should be more clear about what Power Legato is on their product page)
You can also sometimes even spot the cons of the library with walkthroughs, where with a single demo, you can only get a glimpse.
I'm not sure how many people could make a decision of paying $400 from a glimpse...

Don't get me wrong. I'm not hating on OT. I love some of their libraries.
I just don't like how they are doing it with the Ark4 pre-order period.
Just my personal humble opinion.


----------



## Mystic

My only major concern is that OT had so many large libraries release in a very short period of time (Time Macro, Iconica Ensembles, Glory Days, now Ark 4) which is very unlike them that they would cut corners on Ark because it's already got a very dedicated userbase. I do hope I'm very wrong and the walkthrough absolutely wows me but the whole idea of this particular Ark seems to have gone in a very odd direction. I guess we'll see in a few days.


----------



## AllanH

Speculation is fun, but there is really no urgency to purchase anything before a walk-through during the intro period.


----------



## Parsifal666

AllanH said:


> Speculation is fun, but there is really no urgency to purchase anything before a walk-through during the intro period.



+1


----------



## Raphioli

AllanH said:


> Speculation is fun, but there is really no urgency to purchase anything before a walk-through during the intro period.



yeah, I'm not spending a penny till I can see a walkthrough.

But (to quote my post), my main concern is this.


Raphioli said:


> And I would be surprised if they increased the pre-order price before releasing an in-depth walkthrough.


I hope they keep the pre-order price at 349euros until we're able to see a walkthrough.
I'm really interested in how the individual patches sound on their own and what power legato is.


----------



## jbuhler

Raphioli said:


> OT basically started a pre-order period with just a teaser.
> So at this point we can only make assumptions. And I would be surprised if they increased the pre-order price before releasing an in-depth walkthrough.
> And I also prefer a "walkthrough only" rather than a "demo only" pre-order period.


I'm sure they will release some walkthroughs and more demos before the pre-order period is over, but they cut it very close with the Glory Days walkthroughs and I suspect we'll see similar timing here. The big problem for me is that I'm just not yet seeing the concept holding this library together and it makes it hard for me to decide whether it will be a useful addition. I really need a lot more data.


----------



## ChrisSiuMusic

OT’s marketing is definitely different compared to most companies. I’d love to have a walkthrough on the day of the trailer release, but I think the reason they don’t do it is because they want the word to spread and discussion to build around what the product could possibly be about. I do think they missed the mark on Glory Days where they uploaded the final part of the walkthrough on the day of release, but that’s quite atypical and I don’t expect that here.


----------



## Mystic

jbuhler said:


> I'm sure they will release some walkthroughs and more demos before the pre-order period is over, but they cut it very close with the Glory Days walkthroughs and I suspect we'll see similar timing here.


This is one thing that truly pisses me off about how some of these companies are doing things now and I hope OT sees this thread and takes the hint for future releases because it seems to be the same thing every time. Get your walkthrough done before you put it up for sale so we can see exactly what we're paying a substantial amount of money for rather than hoping we rely on the brand. In many cases when I see companies do the whole "walkthrough coming later" spiel, I end up asking myself what the company doesn't want us to see and hopes we spend the money before we see it. This is a practice that absolutely needs to stop. The minute a company asks a person to spend money, they need to show what we are spending money on rather than asking us to trust them. Especially when it comes down to the final day or so of special pricing.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

jbuhler said:


> The big problem for me is that I'm just not yet seeing the concept holding this library together and it makes it hard for me to decide whether it will be a useful addition. I really need a lot more data.


To me, the concept is:

-Instruments with full dynamic range, legato, staccs (previous Arks handicap each instrument, either with dynamics, no legato, or shorts but no longs). So more useful and self-contained, rather than having to go to Ark 1 for loud, Ark 2 for quiet, Ark 3 for shorts/repetitions.

-Chamber-ish strings - VLN1, VLA, VLC + CB, each with an emphasis on accents (martele, overpressure, upbeats, trills). Each with slurred stacc too!

-Blended winds/brass - I think the key to understanding this is that OT wants us to think of each of these as one new instrument, rather than a blend of x + y +z instruments. From their marketing: "All performed and mixed in such a way that the listener perceives them as a single sound." There are only so many wind and brass instruments they can sell us, which is why they might be trying to expand into selling these cocktails. The importance of the small section is so that it actually comes across as if it's from a single new instrument.

The choir sounds like Ark 2, but with shouts. Power staccato.



Mystic said:


> The minute a company asks a person to spend money, they need to show what we are spending money on rather than asking us to trust them.


Agreed. Also, please give Chris Siu a pre-release copy to do a video walkthrough while pre-release pricing is still available.


----------



## jbuhler

Land of Missing Parts said:


> To me, the concept is:
> 
> -Instruments with full dynamic range, legato, staccs (previous Arks handicap each instrument, either with dynamics, no legato, or shorts but no longs)
> 
> -Chamber-ish strings - VLN1, VLA, VLC + CB, each with an emphasis on accents (martele, overpressure, upbeats, trills). Each with slurred stacc too!


So is the idea supposed to be to use the front row players as the glue to hold Arks 1 and 2 together better? I mean the strings from Arks 1 and 2 have so many other issues that I don't see how this will accomplish that. That's not really a knock on the strings from Arks 1 and 2, it's just that they are limited (which is what you'd expect from a library that is not a dedicated string library). And I see something more like a very aggressive chamber sound, yielding the possibility, I suppose, of a kind of POWER DIVISI as a complement to Arks 1 and 2 and the POWER TUTTI you get from some of the Ark 3 multis. We'll see what they do with the softer dynamics.



Land of Missing Parts said:


> Blended winds/brass - I think the key to understanding this is that OT wants us to think of these an new instruments, rather than a blend of x + y +z. From their marketing: "All performed and mixed in such a way that the listener perceives them as a single sound." There are only so many wind and brass instruments they can sell us, which is why they might be trying to expand into selling these cocktails. Of course, we'll need to hear them to see if they really do sound different. Currently, it's just a list.



Two big sounds lacking from the Arks so far were upper woodwinds and muted brass. So we kind of get that here in odd but intriguing combination, though I'm surprised they didn't follow the concept of the rest of the series and do large ensemble versions of flutes, clarinets, and oboes. They could have done some really interesting things with muted brass, which I think is generally neglected in sample libraries, but they were probably trying to avoid direct competition with their Berlin Brass muted brass. Still I would have welcomed a very aggressive muted ensemble brass.



Land of Missing Parts said:


> The choir sounds like Ark 2, but with shouts.



Hopefully there is more coherence to the choir here than this and that it offers something usefully distinct from the choirs in Ark 1 and 2.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

Brian Nowak said:


> I'm certainly never going to pay 549 Euros for it...



Me neither.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

jbuhler said:


> So we kind of get that here in odd but intriguing combination


I think they want us to consider these new instruments, rather than combos. Obviously, we'll need to hear them first to be sold on that, since the articulation lists PDF can't really convey a new sound.

Ironically, they stopped giving the ensembles goofy names like they did in Arks 1 & 2 (e.g. PFARRACKER STRINGS) but it would make the most sense to use those invented names for blends if they really want them to come across as new instruments. Rather than a cocktail of, say, Contrabassoon + Euphonium + Tuba, call it OZYMANDIAS LOWS or somesuch.


----------



## jbuhler

Land of Missing Parts said:


> call it OZYMANDIAS LOWS or somesuch.


But we are getting POWER LEGATO, so there's that!

I actually miss the goofy names. It was part of the charm of Arks 1 & 2. Also OZYMANDIAS LOWS sounds so much cooler than Contrabassoon + Euphonium + Tuba.


----------



## Simon Ravn

I think it sounds amazing! Very clean, focused sound.


----------



## Breaker

I think they ran out of street names around Teldex, hence no more goofy names.


----------



## JohnG

Honestly, I'm surprised at all the breathless admiration for the trailer's sound. I think it's a B-plus at best.

The writing is very engaging, though -- a nice composition.


----------



## JW

JohnG said:


> Honestly, I'm surprised at all the breathless admiration for the trailer's sound. I think it's a B-plus at best.
> 
> The writing is very engaging, though -- a nice composition.


B-plus at best? Describe what you feel is lacking.


----------



## jbuhler

JohnG said:


> Honestly, I'm surprised at all the breathless admiration for the trailer's sound. I think it's a B-plus at best.
> 
> The writing is very engaging, though -- a nice composition.


I think the trailer is fine for what it is, just not especially revealing about the potential of the library.


----------



## JohnG

JW said:


> B-plus at best? Describe what you feel is lacking.



I don't like to disparage anything, but I am quite surprised at the enthusiastic response. Sonically, it reveals itself over and over as fake / sampled. I do think it's pretty good -- I don't regard a B-plus as failing; quite the opposite.

That said, I think Andy Blaney's demos for Spitfire blow the doors off this trailer, nice though the composing is.


----------



## dodecabilly

I am on a fence to buy this one, although I already have BHCT. I think it would actually complement BHCT, in a way. I am waiting for the walkthrough as well in order to make a final decision, but only if they show it before the release...


----------



## lumcas

The history keeps repeating itself over and over. If I remember correctly the thread about Ark 3 was very similar to this one. We also had to wait for a proper walkthrough.
Each and every post in this thread be it a negative or a positive one (including mine) says: “This has caught my attention, will they make it again or will they fail? What’s it gonna be like?” I might not like this marketing approach but judging from the number of posts in this thread, just a short teaser works for OT and helps to build that inevitable hype quite well.


----------



## MartinH.

jbuhler said:


> But we are getting POWER LEGATO, so there's that!



I bet someone at OT's headquarters is telling the rest of the team right now "See guys, I told you it was a great idea to call it that!"


----------



## jbuhler

MartinH. said:


> I bet someone at OT's headquarters is telling the rest of the team right now "See guys, I told you it was a great idea to call it that!"


Maybe. I think it's silly and a bit precious that has given all the citations of it an edge of satire.


----------



## jbuhler

lumcas said:


> The history keeps repeating itself over and over. If I remember correctly the thread about Ark 3 was very similar to this one. We also had to wait for a proper walkthrough.
> Each and every post in this thread be it a negative or a positive one (including mine) says: “This has caught my attention, will they make it again or will they fail? What’s it gonna be like?” I might not like this marketing approach but judging from the number of posts in this thread, just a short teaser works for OT and helps to build that inevitable hype quite well.


I don't recall the sequence of release of walkthroughs for Ark 3, but I do remember thinking I had a good idea what the library was aiming at. The same was true of Time Macro. This one, not so much. That's not a bad thing in itself, but it means it will likely take some time to sort out whether this is something I will find useful.


----------



## Lee Blaske

The demo sounds good to me (as OT demos always do). What I'm scratching my head about, though, is that considering this is a pretty big grab bag things, are these articulations markedly different than what we may already have in the Berlin series instruments? 

I may be interested in this library, but I wonder if this scattering of resources in so many places for similar instruments really complicates the process of composing. I may already have a template with Berlin series instruments loaded, but if I want to go louder, I need to rummage around in file folders and locate these louder samplers. I kind of thinking of it like having a socket wrench set in the basement, but then when I'm working on a project, I realize that the size I need is out in the garage, and I have to go search for that.


----------



## sostenuto

Having Ark1, many posts /comments over time make adding Ark2 very comfortable ….as enhancing /complementing Ark1. 
Ark3 has been less clear …… in terms of how it enhances /rounds out the Ark concept. 
With Ark4 now here, I'm finding it tougher now to go from 2-to-3 vs 2-to-4 ...
( Now using: Ark1; BO_Inspire 1 & 2; Time Macro )

Is this more obvious to those who have 1-2-3 and considering Ark 4 ?


----------



## jbuhler

sostenuto said:


> Is this more obvious to those who have 1-2-3 and considering Ark 4 ?


I don't think the concept of Ark 4 is at all obvious other than being oriented around smaller forces, perhaps a kind of POWER CHAMBER ORCHESTRA with POWER LEGATO. But that's just an inkling and I really have little idea what Ark 4 even is at this point, especially how it will complement/supplement the other Arks. It does look like Ark 4 will be more flexible than Ark 3, and so potentially more useful for me (though many say they use Ark 3 all the time, I haven't found I turn to it often).


----------



## ism

JohnG said:


> I don't like to disparage anything, but I am quite surprised at the enthusiastic response. Sonically, it reveals itself over and over as fake / sampled. I do think it's pretty good -- I don't regard a B-plus as failing; quite the opposite.
> 
> That said, I think Andy Blaney's demos for Spitfire blow the doors off this trailer, nice though the composing is.



There’s a sense that Sasha’s demos almost define the OT sound for me, insofar as I’ve got my head around exactly what the OT sound is. Ark is always a bit too epic for me, although Time Macro, which I thing we can reasonably understand as a conceptual descendent of Ark 3, is something I’m really coming to love, although after quite a lot of effort to figure out what it’s even about. This new Ark - no idea what it’s meant to be about. Even less than my during my initial near total puzzlement over Time Macro. But I’m very curious about what the vision behind it is. (Ie, accepting that super aggressive chamber ensembles is a thing now - what the hell kind of is it, actually? Should be fun to find out).

OT have had some dreadful, if stylish and usually kind of fun, marketing buzzwords lately, that I thing is, like any marketing really , entirely worth mocking at least a little. But none of this diminished the quality of their work.

A nice thing about spitfire demos is that after a while you can really get a sense of the the library from knowing their approaches. Andy is always hyper virtuosic. While Christian’s demos are virtuosic, not so much in the the complexities of their harmonies and such, but in the way he crafts the sonority (I don’t want to say sound design, because it’s more than that, and it’s a dimension hugely important to libraries like Time Macro and, well, most spitfire libraries). Demos by Oliver and Paul come in at varoius points on the Christian to Andy spectrum. And then there’s Homay’s demos ... and I particularly love her sense of texture, which isn’t quite the same as Christian’s deep sense of sonority, but it has singlehandedly sold on libirares like LCO (though it still took me a long time to get my head aroud exactly what it’s about).

I’d love to see what kind of demos Sasha and the OT team could come up with for things like the Olafur Evo. But if OT really wants to sell me on Ark2 - which is the one I’m most intrigued by, then, well I suppose it would be too much to hope that the spitfire team might all contibute demos? And an Andy demo for Ark4 would be amazing as well.

Looking forward to the actual OT demos of this particular OT product also, of course


----------



## MartinH.

jbuhler said:


> Maybe. I think it's silly and a bit precious that has given all the citations of it an edge of satire.


Oh I'm sure almost no one here thinks it's a great idea, but everyone is talking about it, and it has become an instant meme that gets brought up in other threads as well. "There is no bad PR" or something like that. Undecided people tend to buy the familiar brand...


----------



## dzilizzi

Lee Blaske said:


> The demo sounds good to me (as OT demos always do). What I'm scratching my head about, though, is that considering this is a pretty big grab bag things, are these articulations markedly different than what we may already have in the Berlin series instruments?
> 
> I may be interested in this library, but I wonder if this scattering of resources in so many places for similar instruments really complicates the process of composing. I may already have a template with Berlin series instruments loaded, but if I want to go louder, I need to rummage around in file folders and locate these louder samplers. I kind of thinking of it like having a socket wrench set in the basement, but then when I'm working on a project, I realize that the size I need is out in the garage, and I have to go search for that.


8Dio's Wrenchenspeil is still available at $8. It should have all the wrenches you need without going to the garage :D


----------



## whiskers

reserving judgement until walkthroughs


----------



## Brian Nowak

Land of Missing Parts said:


> I think they want us to consider these new instruments, rather than combos. Obviously, we'll need to hear them first to be sold on that, since the articulation lists PDF can't really convey a new sound.
> 
> Ironically, they stopped giving the ensembles goofy names like they did in Arks 1 & 2 (e.g. PFARRACKER STRINGS) but it would make the most sense to use those invented names for blends if they really want them to come across as new instruments. Rather than a cocktail of, say, Contrabassoon + Euphonium + Tuba, call it OZYMANDIAS LOWS or somesuch.



Well, the problem with putting contrasting pairs of instruments together, beyond simply forcing me into instrumentation options, is that it also makes it very difficult to stem projects correctly. 

I am mostly writing library music, where these things can become very problematic if a potential client wants just the brass or woodwinds...


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Brian Nowak said:


> Well, the problem with putting contrasting pairs of instruments together, beyond simply forcing me into instrumentation options, is that it also makes it very difficult to stem projects correctly.


From their marketing: "All performed and mixed in such a way that the listener perceives them as a single sound." 

See what I'm saying? My understanding is that they want us to see "green" instead of "yellow+blue".


----------



## Brian Nowak

Land of Missing Parts said:


> From their marketing: "All performed and mixed in such a way that the listener perceives them as a single sound."
> 
> See what I'm saying? My understanding is that they want us to see "green" instead of "yellow+blue".



Well... I'm not certain a prospective client wanting to license my track will feel the same way if I tell them "Oh it's not a mix of bassoon and horn... it's a... BASSOONANDHORN. You see I put them together so it's different!"

LOL


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

Yeah I personally am not a fan of forced orchestration. Even the 8ves shit me off quite a bit.


----------



## Brian Nowak

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Yeah I personally am not a fan of forced orchestration. Even the 8ves shit me off quite a bit.



I can get on with octave strings since they are so ubiquitous with powerful string writing. In fact, I only wish they made all the Ark 1 high string articulations were available in octaves, as the string range doesn't go high enough to double octaves on the unison patches. 

It becomes a bit different when you start talking about instruments within different families altogether, though.


----------



## synergy543

Lee Blaske said:


> I may be interested in this library, but I wonder if this scattering of resources in so many places for similar instruments really complicates the process of composing. I may already have a template with Berlin series instruments loaded, but if I want to go louder, I need to rummage around in file folders and locate these louder samplers. I kind of thinking of it like having a socket wrench set in the basement, but then when I'm working on a project, I realize that the size I need is out in the garage, and I have to go search for that.



Great point Lee! You've articulated exactly how I feel about all of these "designer" libraries.

The solution? Color-code your socket wrenches. Works great. But for libraries, I'm a bit less sure of an answer.


----------



## ChazC

Mystic said:


> ...I end up asking myself what the company doesn't want us to see and hopes we spend the money before we see it...



I wrote a pretty long post about this very thought process yesterday but deleted it as it turned into quite a bit of a rant! Not putting up detailed info from the outset immediately makes me think "what are they trying to hide?".

We're not talking small change with these libraries and having only a day or so to decide will 9 times out of 10 result in me giving it a miss. 

I fancied Glory Days - not because I would necessarily get my money back for it (it took me two years of owning Swing! before it paid for itself) but it was a "want" library rather than "need". Because of the lack of a walkthrough up front I lost total interest in it & didn't buy it. 

Now, had a walkthrough with a really good example of it being used in context been shown more or less straightaway then I very probably would have dropped for it there and then. I'm in pretty much the same boat with MA4 now. 

I like all my OT stuff but the way they go about marketing new stuff really hacks me off - it's not just OT either, a lot of developers seem to think it's the way to do things. Personally, I disagree but they obviously make their money so who am I to argue?


----------



## lumcas

dzilizzi said:


> 8Dio's Wrenchenspeil is still available at $8. It should have all the wrenches you need without going to the garage :D



Thanks for the heads up on the Wrenchenspiel, will just be noodling with it tomorrow. It might help me to decide which new OT libraries will I get during the sale. The Wrenchespiel is an ideal library, works well for my needs... decisions, decisions


----------



## dzilizzi

lumcas said:


> Thanks for the heads up on the Wrenchenspiel, will just be noodling with it tomorrow. It might help me to decide which new OT libraries will I get during the sale. The Wrenchespiel is an ideal library, works well for my needs... decisions, decisions


It is much easier to decide to buy an $8 library than a 350 euro one. No matter how good.


----------



## Naro

Please forgive me if I'm off track in logic here; it’s late and I should’ve taken my brain to bed hours ago. I have, as yet, no OT libraries, and are only just now beginning to seriously look into them since becoming aware of the current sale at NI (and now the ARK 4 pre-order special). As such, I’m barely familiar with the OT philosophy, or method to their products' production. But I've read through this thread thus far and have noticed recurrent expressions of curiosity and/or occasional bemusement at the terms “Power Legato,” and “Power Sustains.” At first thought I’m assuming that they refer to something in principle akin to what is commonly referred to in guitar music as power chords.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_chord#Analysis

“. . . in a power chord, the ratio between the frequencies of the root and fifth are very close to the just interval 3:2. When played through distortion, the intermodulation leads to the production of partials closely related in frequency to the harmonics of the original two notes, producing a more coherent sound. The intermodulation makes the spectrum of the sound expand in both directions, and with enough distortion, a new fundamental frequency component appears an octave lower than the root note of the chord played without distortion, giving a richer, more bassy and more subjectively 'powerful' sound than the undistorted signal. _*Even when played without distortion, the simple ratios between the harmonics in the notes of a power chord can give a stark and powerful sound, owing to the resultant tone effect.*_"


----------



## whiskers

For those that were curious, part 1 of 2 is here:


----------



## whiskers

well we found out what Power Legato is - rough and loud sounding transitions. How anticlimactic


----------



## whiskers

sounds nice but not seeing anything here that's really grabbing me (personally).

The choirs are interesting, though.


----------



## jbuhler

whiskers said:


> sounds nice but not seeing anything here that's really grabbing me (personally).
> 
> The choirs are interesting, though.


A lot more detail in the strings than the other Ark libraries. I haven't got a good sense of the range of expression in the strings yet and whether it can help fix the issues I have with other Ark string patches or blend usefully with other string libraries.


----------



## whiskers

jbuhler said:


> A lot more detail in the strings than the other Ark libraries. I haven't got a good sense of the range of expression in the strings yet and whether it can help fix the issues I have with other Ark string patches or blend usefully with other string libraries.


I noticed that too. It does sound nice, I'm just not sure if that texture and expression is worth 400$...IDK yet.


----------



## jbuhler

whiskers said:


> I noticed that too. It does sound nice, I'm just not sure if that texture and expression is worth 400$...IDK yet.


Some of the choir was a bit odd with individual voices, especially one of the men, popping out. Not sure how I feel about that.


----------



## whiskers

jbuhler said:


> Some of the choir was a bit odd with individual voices, especially one of the men, popping out. Not sure how I feel about that.


my thoughts exactly, would really have to be going for a really specific mood for that to work well in a mix IMHO


----------



## N.Caffrey

those strings sound incredible


----------



## Raphioli

The strings sound really nice. 
I like the horn slurs too. (not sure why they couldn't sample that for their main brass library)


----------



## dzilizzi

The ricochets are kind of cool. The rest is good, but nothing that says "BUY ME! BUY ME NOW!" for me. I have too much stuff and no planned use for this, so if it doesn't spark an "I feel inspired just listening to this!" moment, it goes on the maybe later pile.


----------



## whiskers

dzilizzi said:


> The ricochets are kind of cool. The rest is good, but nothing that says "BUY ME! BUY ME NOW!" for me. I have too much stuff and no planned use for this, so if it doesn't spark an "I feel inspired just listening to this!" moment, it goes on the maybe later pile.


agreed. Same with Ark 3 to me. Both sound really nice but not like "OMG I have to have this!." BI 1&2 and Ark 1&2 feel very inspirational to me. So I got Ark1&2. 

BI 1&2....IDK.

But at least with 4, I guess our wallets can breathe a sigh of relief?


----------



## dzilizzi

whiskers said:


> agreed. Same with Ark 3 to me. Both sound really nice but not like "OMG I have to have this!." BI 1&2 and Ark 1&2 feel very inspirational to me. So I got Ark1&2.
> 
> BI 1&2....IDK.
> 
> But at least with 4, I guess our wallets can breathe a sigh of relief?


Yes, I probably will get Ark 3 and the runs thing. It seems like a good thing. Ark 3 seems to go well with the Time Macro and I love how - was it Max? - used the runs thing for that piece he did. Runs are not always easy to program. So, that's my thoughts so far.


----------



## MartinH.

Not sure if this is a me-problem, but I find some of the high-pitched sounds and multis they're demonstrating in the first minutes of the walkthrough quite unpleasant. Maybe that's the whole point though? I don't know, this is an easy pass for me. Almost reliefed that that's the case :D.


----------



## sostenuto

dzilizzi said:


> Yes, I probably will get Ark 3 and the runs thing. It seems like a good thing. Ark 3 seems to go well with the Time Macro and I love how - was it Max? - used the runs thing for that piece he did. Runs are not always easy to program. So, that's my thoughts so far.



Pls add a brief comment re. Ark 3. I use LADD for perc, now. Have no clue how much this might 'duplicate' perc content in Ark 3, So my concern, is how you feel balance of perc and orch is in Ark 3. If ~~ 50/50, then I can try to judge for my needs. ???

THX


----------



## whiskers

yeah the orch part seems useful, I'm more or less covered on percussion though.


sostenuto said:


> Pls add a brief comment re. Ark 3. I use LADD for perc, now. Have nno clue how much this might 'duplicate' perc content in Ark 3, So my concern, is how you feel balance of perc and orch is in Ark 3. If ~~ 50/50, then I can try to judge for my needs. ???
> 
> THX


----------



## Lee Blaske

dzilizzi said:


> 8Dio's Wrenchenspeil is still available at $8. It should have all the wrenches you need without going to the garage :D



Does 8Dio's Wrenchenspeil have metric sizes?


----------



## dzilizzi

Lee Blaske said:


> Does 8Dio's Wrenchenspeil have metric sizes?


I'm not quite sure. They are European, so I am thinking it is probably metric.


----------



## dzilizzi

sostenuto said:


> Pls add a brief comment re. Ark 3. I use LADD for perc, now. Have no clue how much this might 'duplicate' perc content in Ark 3, So my concern, is how you feel balance of perc and orch is in Ark 3. If ~~ 50/50, then I can try to judge for my needs. ???
> 
> THX


I don't have it yet. But I did listen to most of Daniel Jame's run through - 20 minutes at a time. (it is long) I only have HWO Diamond percussion, 8dio stuff and a bunch of miscellaneous percussion that comes with every thing I own. But I was actually liking the orchestra part. The low brass sound really good to me. But it is very epic sounding.


----------



## ChrisSiuMusic

Land of Missing Parts said:


> To me, the concept is:
> 
> -Instruments with full dynamic range, legato, staccs (previous Arks handicap each instrument, either with dynamics, no legato, or shorts but no longs). So more useful and self-contained, rather than having to go to Ark 1 for loud, Ark 2 for quiet, Ark 3 for shorts/repetitions.
> 
> -Chamber-ish strings - VLN1, VLA, VLC + CB, each with an emphasis on accents (martele, overpressure, upbeats, trills). Each with slurred stacc too!
> 
> -Blended winds/brass - I think the key to understanding this is that OT wants us to think of each of these as one new instrument, rather than a blend of x + y +z instruments. From their marketing: "All performed and mixed in such a way that the listener perceives them as a single sound." There are only so many wind and brass instruments they can sell us, which is why they might be trying to expand into selling these cocktails. The importance of the small section is so that it actually comes across as if it's from a single new instrument.
> 
> The choir sounds like Ark 2, but with shouts. Power staccato.
> 
> 
> Agreed. Also, please give Chris Siu a pre-release copy to do a video walkthrough while pre-release pricing is still available.


I already reached out and asked about a pre-release copy, but was informed that in general they’re unable to send me a copy to walk through until official release. Seems like Inspire 2 was the exception.


----------



## sostenuto

dzilizzi said:


> I don't have it yet. ****** But I was actually liking the orchestra part. The low brass sound really good to me. But it is very epic sounding.



yes .. some 8DIO and Misc perc as well. Great promo price, but iffy. Will try DJ YT and hope for some stimuli !


----------



## zimm83

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> I already reached out and asked about a pre-release copy, but was informed that in general they’re unable to send me a copy to walk through until official release. Seems like Inspire 2 was the exception.


Love it. Great sound . And those power legatos. 
GENIUS. Love it. The sound is detailed AND powerful !!! 
OT rules !


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> I already reached out and asked about a pre-release copy, but was informed that in general they’re unable to send me a copy to walk through until official release. Seems like Inspire 2 was the exception.


For the life of me, I don't get why they end the initial pricing before people can get it and review. It's like they'll cut you a deal if you agree to buy before you know what you're getting, but why? How does that help them?

It's clearly a disadvantage to the customer, but Orchestral Tools doesn't gain anything. Unless they think people wouldn't buy it if they had more information, but that doesn't seem to be the case with their releases up until now. It just sends all the wrong signals.

So...why?


----------



## Francis Bourre

Land of Missing Parts said:


> For the life of me, I don't get why they end the initial pricing before people can get it and review. It's like they'll cut you a deal if you agree to buy before you know what you're getting, but why? How does that help them?
> 
> It's clearly a disadvantage to the customer, but Orchestral Tools doesn't gain anything. Unless they think people wouldn't buy it if they had more information, but that doesn't seem to be the case with their releases up until now. It just sends all the wrong signals.
> 
> So...why?


It's the kickstarter syndrom.


----------



## Parsifal666

whiskers said:


> well we found out what Power Legato is - rough and loud sounding transitions. How anticlimactic



I was so hoping they'd market this by changing these lyrics from Mr. Roboto to....

uh, you probably get it.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Francis Bourre said:


> It's the kickstarter syndrom.


Kickstarter the crowdfunding platform? They would be pre-selling before they made the library in that case. Easy to see why you'd want to lock in presales before going into production. This is a different model completely.


----------



## sostenuto

Well …. maybe Part 2 of 2 ?? Got few days left


----------



## Francis Bourre

Land of Missing Parts said:


> They would be pre-selling before they made the library in that case.


You have different models on the platform. Some big brands now use it as a normal shop with preorder. Here's an example:


----------



## whiskers

sostenuto said:


> Well …. maybe Part 2 of 2 ?? Got few days left


they said part 2 would come tomorrow, I believe


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Francis Bourre said:


> You have different models on the platform. Some big brands now use it as a normal shop with preorder. Here's an example:



I have no idea what you're talking about.

Nevertheless, Orchestral Tools isn't offering pre-release pricing to raise enough money to go into production. The library is already made.

This is a deliberate choice they are giving us, it seems, to buy without reviews or pay a little more to buy after reviews. But how does that help them, unless they think reviews will hurt sales? They could just as easily sell it for €349 for the first two weeks after release. It just seems like they are hobbling consumers without helping themselves, and I want to know why.

There's something about the message it sends that feels unnecessarily antagonistic to me.


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

This is how I see it, and I guess how they handle their product launches :

Pre-Order : Very little information available, no reviews, lately no demos except those by Sascha. If you buy the library during this period, it's an act of "blind trust" towards the company.

Intro period : The price is usually raised by $50, and all the reviews and demos start to emerge. Now, you know what you buy, and their intro prices are still good deals.

End of intro period (usually a month after) : Full price, no advantages.


----------



## whiskers

whitewasteland said:


> This is how I see it, and I guess how they handle their product launches :
> 
> Pre-Order : Very little information available, no reviews, lately no demos except those by Sascha. If you buy the library during this period, it's an act of "blind trust" towards the company.
> 
> Intro period : The price is usually raised by $50, and all the reviews and demos start to emerge. Now, you know what you buy, and their intro prices are still good deals.
> 
> End of intro period (usually a month after) : Full price, no advantages.


yeah that seems to be the pattern. Most of us (zimm83 excluded) won't buy on blind trust though.


----------



## dzilizzi

whiskers said:


> yeah that seems to be the pattern. Most of us (zimm83 excluded) won't buy on blind trust though.


been burned a few times and you get cautious. (Not by OT specifically, just in general)


----------



## jbuhler

whiskers said:


> agreed. Same with Ark 3 to me. Both sound really nice but not like "OMG I have to have this!." BI 1&2 and Ark 1&2 feel very inspirational to me. So I got Ark1&2.
> 
> BI 1&2....IDK.
> 
> But at least with 4, I guess our wallets can breathe a sigh of relief?


I think the strings sound better than strings for the earlier Arks but not enough that I care because I already have other workflows for that. The choir is intriguing but I fear I'll just find it irritating unless it can kind of work as a soloist patch. At the moment I think this is a pass.


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

whiskers said:


> yeah that seems to be the pattern. Most of us (zimm83 excluded) won't buy on blind trust though.



Yep, I wouldn't spend such amount of money based on a single demo by Sascha. The dude is so talentend he could probably make a kick-ass mockup with Garage Band.


----------



## sostenuto

whitewasteland said:


> Yep, I wouldn't spend such amount of money based on a single demo by Sascha. The dude is so talentend he could probably make a kick-ass mockup with Garage Band.



Soooooooo true !! Had thought about that even awaiting Part 2. Strong talent at OT and any issues they pickup can likely be 'worked around'. 
Past dev issues are getting much more attention now and that's a good thing ......


----------



## Brian Nowak

There were a few points in the walkthrough that I felt were strong. But for the most part nothing made me scream in delight either.

As I suspected, the instrument blends sound like... instruments playing together (shocking absolutely shocking!). In light of that, I stand by my earlier statement. Low/medium/high variations within each section would have been considerably more useful than cross-section blends. In my opinion a big lost opportunity to make a killer "Chamber Ark-estra", if you will.

Nothing stood out to me so hard that I didn't feel like I could cover it adequately with what I already own. I cannot say the same thing about the first 3 Arks.


----------



## zimm83

The sound is clear detailed and powerful. The power legatos are fantastic. Was looking for this kind of artics .
Will blend very well with the 3 other arks. Well done. Thanks OT !


----------



## zimm83

zimm83 said:


> The sound is clear detailed and powerful. The power legatos are fantastic. Was looking for this kind of artics .
> Will blend very well with the 3 other arks. Well done. Thanks OT !


Just discovered that every section has the famous wide trill orchestrator...Great!


----------



## Lassi Tani

zimm83 said:


> Just discovered that every section has the famous wide trill orchestrator...Great!



Was it just a short trill effect? I didn't get that from the walkthrough, if it was a short articulation or you could play it long too.


----------



## tebling

jbuhler said:


> I think the strings sound better than strings for the earlier Arks but not enough that I care because I already have other workflows for that.



There are a number of comments here in a similar vein. However, as someone who just bought Ark 1+2 on sale as their first and ONLY orchestral libraries, how should I be thinking about Ark 4?


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

whitewasteland said:


> If you buy the library during this period, it's an act of "blind trust" towards the company.


It seems they want loyalty, even as they discontinue their Ark loyalty discount.


----------



## jbuhler

tebling said:


> There are a number of comments here in a similar vein. However, as someone who just bought Ark 1+2 on sale as their first and ONLY orchestral libraries, how should I be thinking about Ark 4?


Ark 4 will give you detail and presence that are lacking in Arks 1+2. The strings in Ark 1 are peculiar, focused on octaves and only two sections with relatively narrow ranges. They are good for certain kinds of things, but they are not especially flexible. The strings for Ark 2 are better and more flexible, and are usefully broken across three sections but are designed for lower dynamic levels. Hopefully, Ark 4 would give you glue to connect Arks 1&2 and/or provide a bit more dynamic range for Ark 2. Without being able to play with them it's hard to say for certain. 

If Arks 1&2 are your only orchestral libraries, then you will be lacking in upper woodwinds. Ark 4 helps with that to some extent, but imho they missed a real opportunity here in not giving ensemble upper winds in sections but opted for these combinations. Instead of the combinations, I would have given woodwinds and muted brass, the obvious elements missing from Arks 1&2. If they really felt they had to avoid competition with their other libraries they could have emphasized louder dynamic levels (like Ark 1) or made things like the flute picc patch for clarinet and Eb clarinet, oboe and English horn and such. Personally, I would have done something like piccolos a3, flutes a6, clarinets a4, oboes a3, etc. all mf-ff; with the English horn a3, bass oboe a3, basset horn a3 treat them more like Ark 2 with pp to mf. Maybe that muted bass trombone and bass clarinet patch they provided will in fact prove super useful! Who knows?


----------



## dzilizzi

whitewasteland said:


> Yep, I wouldn't spend such amount of money based on a single demo by Sascha. The dude is so talentend he could probably make a kick-ass mockup with Garage Band.


This! This is where I would like to be! Sigh. I don't have the time to get that good right now. 

I do have to say, I prefer to watch the walk throughs by someone who doesn't know the library, even Daniel James. (only because I think he could also make a kick-ass mockup with Garage Band) But the initial run through where they go "how do I make this sound good?" Or "WOW, I don't have to do anything and it sounds great!" are what I am looking for.


----------



## tebling

jbuhler said:


> Ark 4 will give you detail and presence that are lacking in Arks 1+2.



I really appreciate your detailed thoughts, thank you! The strings I've heard so far on Ark 4 seem pretty compelling. I'm going to keep my eye on it even though the wallet still hurts from all the other sales I've caved on.

My thinking is that if the difference between pre-order pricing vs intro pricing on Ark 4 is $50, then it seems an acceptable trade off to mitigate risk until we've heard a more complete walkthrough.


----------



## jbuhler

tebling said:


> I really appreciate your detailed thoughts, thank you! The strings I've heard so far on Ark 4 seem pretty compelling. I'm going to keep my eye on it even though the wallet still hurts from all the other sales I've caved on.
> 
> My thinking is that if the difference between pre-order pricing vs intro pricing on Ark 4 is $50, then it seems an acceptable trade off to mitigate risk until we've heard a more complete walkthrough.


There's supposed to be a second walkthrough tomorrow.


----------



## Parsifal666

I've heard and seen good things about this. I'd certainly buy it before 3, but choosing 4 over 1 and 2 as a package?

No way.


----------



## ChazC

Well I was more impressed with the library than OT’s approach to marketing it. With the price point as-is and their apparent media blackout on reviews/3rd party walkthru’s before release I’m likely going to pass. I really don’t understand their thought process behind the marketing of this one tbh. Disappointed in their attitude more than the library.


----------



## dzilizzi

Parsifal666 said:


> I've heard and seen good things about this. I'd certainly buy it before 3, but choosing 4 over 1 and 2 as a package?
> 
> No way.


Don't say things like that. I already decided to buy Ark 3 & OSR. But if I got Ark 4, I couldn't get the runs.


----------



## tebling

Parsifal666 said:


> I've heard and seen good things about this. I'd certainly buy it before 3, but choosing 4 over 1 and 2 as a package?



I don't think anyone is suggesting that?


----------



## jbuhler

tebling said:


> I don't think anyone is suggesting that?


Here is someone asking the question. In that case, they were looking for how to best expand their existing palette in a direction that was most useful to them so the question made sense.


----------



## sostenuto

Parsifal666 said:


> I've heard and seen good things about this. I'd certainly buy it before 3, but choosing 4 over 1 and 2 as a package?
> 
> No way.



Stressing over Ark 3 as well. You often add solid detail to 'fill out' your stronger impressions. 
Will truly help if you will do so here. Have Ark1, Purchasing Ark 2 very shortly. Will then do 3 or 4.
_Have LADD._ Any more you can add to help better understand Ark 3 'shortcomings' ??


----------



## Parsifal666

tebling said:


> I don't think anyone is suggesting that?



Try reading the post in context, my friend.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

you guys lost me.


----------



## Parsifal666

sostenuto said:


> Stressing over Ark 3 as well. You often add solid detail to 'fill out' your stronger impressions.
> Will truly help if you will do so here. Have Ark1, Purchasing Ark 2 very shortly. Will then do 3 or 4.
> _Have LADD._ Any more you can add to help better understand Ark 3 'shortcomings' ??



This is only my opinion, but Ark 4 appeals to me personally because I often like orchestral combinations (as you probably recall, my fave library is BHCT). I like that OT is going there.

And I'm completely with the earlier poster whom mentioned the strings probably have it over even 2.


----------



## jbuhler

sostenuto said:


> Stressing over Ark 3 as well. You often add solid detail to 'fill out' your stronger impressions.
> Will truly help if you will do so here. Have Ark1, Purchasing Ark 2 very shortly. Will then do 3 or 4.
> Have LADD. Any more you can add to help better understand Ark 3 'shortcomings' ??


Not shortcomings so much as usage. Do you write lots of sharp hits, lots of repetitions? Do you like to use the orchestra as a sonic battering ram? Ark 3 is great for that kind of stuff. But if you don't do that very often, it may not be that useful. I also find it hard to mix and the clusters aren't generally the pitch content and voicings I prefer. But that's just me.


----------



## Parsifal666

I know this gets maddeningly repetitive, but it really is all about what you're looking for.

GAD I hated going through that litany again. It's true though. It's really up to you.


----------



## sostenuto

Zoot_Rollo said:


> you guys lost me.



Context seemed clear here, but _waada I kno_ ? Maybe Reply to my post will clarify somewhat ...


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

Parsifal666 said:


> This is only my opinion, but Ark 4 appeals to me personally because I often like orchestral combinations (as you probably recall, my fave library is BHCT). I like that OT is going there.



i'm excited for Ark 4 - and still have a little pitter-pat for the possibility of BHCT before 2019.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

sostenuto said:


> Context seemed clear here, but _waada I kno_ ? Maybe Reply to my post will clarify somewhat ...



a little overwhelmed with a few other threads.

i'm sure if i read through a few pages, i'd catch up.

sorry to interrupt.

carry on.


----------



## sostenuto

jbuhler said:


> Not shortcomings so much as usage. Do you write lots of sharp hits, lots of repetitions? Do you like to use the orchestra as a sonic battering ram? Ark 3 is great for that kind of stuff. But if you don't do that very often, it may not be that useful. I also find it hard to mix and the clusters aren't generally the pitch content and voicings I prefer. But that's just me.



No ! ..... and available material _ so far - had not given me that strong an impression. It's starting to sound like 4 is more of the same. Things can always change, but broad mainstream here does not map against your clear descriptions.

_If Post #293 responds to me, I can only state that what I'm ' going for'
is not what was described here. I had not previously understood Ark 3 quite in the ways now much clearer. _


----------



## Olfirf

Guys, all you have to do is simply NOT BUY! You can talk for ages about how you don't like the recent approach of OT, but the one thing that can clearly influence the developer is to deliberately not buy from them in this case. I certainly won't, after I have seen them leave their earlier path and do a 60% off sale. From now on, I will wait for everything to be on sale for a low price, just like with other developers who do sales. It is sad, but it doesn't make sense to spend double or more on a library only to have it 1 or 2 years earlier than others. There are so many alternatives out there, you really don't have to buy stuff for a premium price.


----------



## Tendo

I apologize if this has been asked already, but what would be recommended for someone with NO orchestral libraries: Ark 1+2 or Ark 4?


----------



## jbuhler

sostenuto said:


> No ! ..... and available material _ so far - had not given me that strong an impression. It's starting to sound like 4 is more of the same. Things can always change, but broad mainstream here does not map against your clear descriptions.


Personally, I would choose Ark 4 over Ark 3, because its conception fits better with the kinds of things I write. Am I disappointed in Ark 3? Not really, though I wish hadn't bought it. But I did know what I was buying when I did, so I don't blame anyone but myself for that, and I do use it occasionally, so it's not a waste. And it's ridiculously fun to load up one of the marcato multis and bang away at the world with the sonic battering ram... 

That said, at this point I'm leaning against buying Ark 4 because I don't yet see that it adds much to what I already have. That may change as I see the second walkthrough, rewatch the first and listen to any demos that OT deign to drop us before the preorder offer expires. In some ways, I'm now comparing buying this to buying BHCT—and right now I think the latter is winning, though I need to make another evaluation of the choir in Ark 4.


----------



## jbuhler

Tendo said:


> I apologize if this has been asked already, but what would be recommended for someone with NO orchestral libraries: Ark 1+2 or Ark 4?


We still don't really have the full scope of Ark 4, but my initial reaction is Arks 1+2 by a long shot.


----------



## Tendo

jbuhler said:


> We still don't really have the full scope of Ark 4, but my initial reaction is Arks 1+2 by a long shot.


Thank you very much for your reply! I'll be checking the forum after tomorrow's walkthrough; looking forward to opinions!


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

Tendo said:


> I apologize if this has been asked already, but what would be recommended for someone with NO orchestral libraries: Ark 1+2 or Ark 4?



now THAT'S entertainment.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

Tendo said:


> Thank you very much for your reply! I'll be checking the forum after tomorrow's walkthrough; looking forward to opinions!



oh, you were serious.

sorry.

see jbuhler's reply above.

oh, i see you already have.

man, am i out of synch...


----------



## sostenuto

jbuhler said:


> Personally, I would choose Ark 4 over Ark 3, because its conception fits better with the kinds of things I write. Am I disappointed in Ark 3? Not really, though I wish hadn't bought it. But I did know what I was buying when I did, so I don't blame anyone but myself for that, and I do use it occasionally, so it's not a waste. And it's ridiculously fun to load up one of the marcato multis and bang away at the world with the sonic battering ram...
> 
> That said, at this point I'm leaning against buying Ark 4 because I don't yet see that it adds much to what I already have. That may change as I see the second walkthrough, rewatch the first and listen to any demos that OT deign to drop us before the preorder offer expires. In some ways, I'm now comparing buying this to buying BHCT—and right now I think the latter is winning, though I need to make another evaluation of the choir in Ark 4.



THX. Shortlist remains about the same, but BHCT is gaining a bit more favor now, primarily if included in Wishlist titles. Shortlist is shades of grey in many ways, so not judging any as good/bad, just minor shifts in priority.


----------



## MartinH.

In the world of videogames "preordering" only based on a trailer and vague promises is a common practice. You won't get it cheaper that way, but you will get (usually meaningless) "preorder bonuses" that you _can't_ get post launch. The equivalent in VI world would be you get a specialty articulation that you're never gonna use only if you preorder. Or you get a golden and shiny UI, while all the normal post-release orders get the regular dark UI. Also the developers would be naming a date for a "review embargo", and everyone who got a review copy and releases their review before that date, will be blacklisted and not receive review copies in the future. And if the VI world were to full on copy all the bullshit that games preorders do on the extreme end of the scale, you'd get different exclusive preorder articulations in different _stores _where you can order the product, so you'd need to buy it _multiple times _if you are a compulsive completionist. And if sales don't go as expected, the thing goes on a 30% or better sale just a few months after release... 




Tendo said:


> I apologize if this has been asked already, but what would be recommended for someone with NO orchestral libraries: Ark 1+2 or Ark 4?



Easy choice: 1+2. Might need to fill gaps (high woodwinds, "proper" string sections) with other libraries. That should be fairly clear if you look at the articulation list pdfs of the 4 arks. 



Zoot_Rollo said:


> a little overwhelmed with a few other threads.


We have at least 3 very active threads about OT, I think one would have been easier to keep up with because there is so much overlap anyway.


----------



## Parsifal666

Actually, I'd recommend Composer Cloud before the Arks to people just starting out with an orchestral library. EW has all kinds of great instruments, and it's really cheap for what you get. An added bonus is you'll have to learn some engineering/mixing skills to figure out how best to make your sections sit together. 

Of course, for more immediate, easier-to-mix the Arks 1 and 2 seem like a good choice imo. I'd recommend them before Albion I in a heartbeat, screw the expense it's worth it imo.


----------



## ChazC

MartinH. said:


> In the world of videogames "preordering" only based on a trailer and vague promises is a common practice.



The main difference being a video game is $60-$100 & Ark4 is €349+tax!


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

ChazC said:


> The main difference being a video game is $60-$100 & Ark4 is €349+tax!


And not refundable


----------



## jbuhler

Parsifal666 said:


> Actually, I'd recommend Composer Cloud before the Arks to people just starting out with an orchestral library. EW has all kinds of great instruments, and it's really cheap for what you get. An added bonus is you'll have to learn some engineering/mixing skills to figure out how best to make your sections sit together.
> 
> Of course, for more immediate, easier-to-mix the Arks 1 and 2 seem like a good choice imo. I'd recommend them before Albion I in a heartbeat, screw the expense it's worth it imo.


This is a better answer, and there are several orchestral packages that give better coverage than Arks 1&2. As much as I like the sound of the Arks it offers a very particular palette.


----------



## Mister Jös

jbuhler said:


> This is a better answer, and there are several orchestral packages that give better coverage than Arks 1&2. As much as I like the sound of the Arks it offers a very particular palette.


RRA Palette and EW HWO are coming to my mind.. but for 500€ the amount of different content provided by Ark 1+2 is hard to beat or are there options that I'm missing?


----------



## jbuhler

Mister Jös said:


> RRA Palette and EW HWO are coming to my mind.. but for 500€ the amount of different content provided by Ark 1+2 is hard to beat or are there options that I'm missing?


Well we’re talking about someone who doesn’t already have a basic orchestral library. Are the Arks the best place to start? What they cover is excellent and aside from the lack of woodwinds I would have been pretty happy starting with it because it suits my sound world but it is quite limiting unless you are working with that very particular sound.


----------



## dzilizzi

Tendo said:


> I apologize if this has been asked already, but what would be recommended for someone with NO orchestral libraries: Ark 1+2 or Ark 4?


No orchestral libraries? I'd probably go with the Inspire I & II set over any of the Arks. Just saying. It would be more useful for basic orchestration. 

However, you could always buy EW HW Gold at 60% to cover the basics and go for Ark 1 & 2. The problem with the Arks is that they aren't a general orchestration library. You can write with them, but they don't have a lot of the basic patches.

Edit: LOL! I'm always late with the reply....


----------



## sostenuto

RRA Palette came to mind as well. Key thing for @ Mister Jos is their excellent no-cost Demo Library _ Primary Colors. 
Few providers have offered such a fine way to experience such a well-featured Orchestral library.

(Very recently on sale, and worth an e-mail to see if they will help.)


----------



## tim727

Am I the only one that thought the choir actually sounded amazing? Throughout the whole demo up til that point I was thinking "well this all sounds nice, as expected, but what is it really giving me that is new/unique?" ... and then they played the choir for 10 seconds and my mind was saying "damnit OT, I might have to buy this ..."


----------



## Cass Hansen

I really like the sound of these strings, especially the tight/close and focused sound of them. I know these are intended to complement the other Ark libraries, to bring more definition and richness to the palette.

My question to members here who are really good at ferreting out the strengths and weaknesses and intricacies of layering and combining libraries together, such as Noam, Helix, and many others, is:

….Could Ark 4 strings (since they are 3 players for violin and viola) be used as a divisi solution for the Main Berlin String library, used in 2 or 3 divisi writing situations (_utilizing the transposition trick for variance in tone.)_

I believe there’re 8 players for 1st violin section and 6 for both the 2nd violin and viola sections in the main library.

Good blend or no, won’t work.


----------



## zimm83

Cass Hansen said:


> I really like the sound of these strings, especially the tight/close and focused sound of them. I know these are intended to complement the other Ark libraries, to bring more definition and richness to the palette.
> 
> My question to members here who are really good at ferreting out the strengths and weaknesses and intricacies of layering and combining libraries together, such as Noam, Helix, and many others, is:
> 
> ….Could Ark 4 strings (since they are 3 players for violin and viola) be used as a divisi solution for the Main Berlin String library, used in 2 or 3 divisi writing situations (_utilizing the transposition trick for variance in tone.)_
> 
> I believe there’re 8 players for 1st violin section and 6 for both the 2nd violin and viola sections in the main library.
> 
> Good blend or no, won’t work.


I will use First Chairs with it.


----------



## Leo

Just for me: 
3 violas, 2 cellos & 1 bass, marimba & xylo & pno are very usefully and brings something new, 
BUT others are just ok, I make direct comparison (ark4 screencast) with my lovely Afflatus, hmmm
I was also disappointed many content I also see in ark3 as well (ark3 quintet) only legato is new, what I miss in ark3... 
worth 418EUR?


----------



## zimm83

Part 2 is online ! Great !


----------



## lucor




----------



## mobileavatar

Part 1 is very convincing, but not too sure about Part 2, esp. for the woodwinds. The "fff"s sound at most ffs, and "pp"s sound like they are scaled from mf/mp. For piccolos, it takes even more lip pressure for soft dynamics. From the screencast, they sound way too relaxed to be convincing. Same could be said for the fortississimo. Maybe it's the problem to fit the full dynamic range without overcompressing the samples (?)


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

lucor said:


>




i'll TAKE IT!

oh wait, i already did.


----------



## zimm83

Zoot_Rollo said:


> i'll TAKE IT!
> 
> oh wait, i already did.


Same here !!!!!


----------



## axb312

Two questions:

1. Does anyone else hear too much air/ noise in some samples at the higher dynamics?

2. Where is the vibrato control?


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

axb312 said:


> Two questions:
> 
> 1. Does anyone else hear too much air/ noise in some samples at the higher dynamics?
> 
> 2. Where is the vibrato control?




honestly, i hear air/noise in most of my libraries - except my VSLs.


----------



## Brian Nowak

Again, I feel like there were points of strength and then some areas where it sounded a bit on the cheap side.

I appreciate that they made some effort to do lows/mediums/highs within families. But it just seems like a fair amount of it is half baked. I get the whole "special colors" thing they're going for. But I feel like those colors are going to get dull pretty fast, and therefore I would restrict my use of them. Even in the case of the trumpets - that timbre is so particular. Combining those sounds is a special effect, like having half a choir sing pianissimo while the other half whispers. If you do it too long it becomes passe. 

Really, the standout flexible stuff is the strings, choir groups, and picc/flute combo. Everything else is pretty much just fluff and is inherently inflexible. 

Also, it may just be my ears, and we won't know until people start using it. But it seems like a lot of the effects (rips, small crescendos) were inconsistent in timing depending upon the patch.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

Brian Nowak said:


> Again, I feel like there were points of strength and then some areas where it sounded a bit on the cheap side.
> 
> I appreciate that they made some effort to do lows/mediums/highs within families. But it just seems like a fair amount of it is half baked. I get the whole "special colors" thing they're going for. But I feel like those colors are going to get dull pretty fast, and therefore I would restrict my use of them. Even in the case of the trumpets - that timbre is so particular. Combining those sounds is a special effect, like having half a choir sing pianissimo while the other half whispers. If you do it too long it becomes passe.
> 
> Really, the standout flexible stuff is the strings, choir groups, and picc/flute combo. Everything else is pretty much just fluff and is inherently inflexible.
> 
> Also, it may just be my ears, and we won't know until people start using it. But it seems like a lot of the effects (rips, small crescendos) were inconsistent in timing depending upon the patch.



a few of us will 'take one for the team' to save you from a fluff purchase.


----------



## dzilizzi

Well, the woodwinds and the horns sounded good. But not Wow to me. The women's choir was nice. But the men's choir where they do the power Ah's? Sounds like aaa to me (don't know how to write phonetically with my computer). Not a nice sound. They should have done Oh. At least into the higher notes.


----------



## Brian Nowak

Zoot_Rollo said:


> a few of us will 'take one for the team' to save you from a fluff purchase.



Hey man I say this coming from the standpoint of an owner of the first 3 Arks. I use them constantly. I don't feel like I would be able to get the same kind of general use out of this material.

It just feels a little too nebulous to be a front line, and a little too obvious to be a chamber music ensemble. I get that other people might feel totally differently.


----------



## zimm83

dzilizzi said:


> Well, the woodwinds and the horns sounded good. But not Wow to me. The women's choir was nice. But the men's choir where they do the power Ah's? Sounds like aaa to me (don't know how to write phonetically with my computer). Not a nice sound. They should have done Oh. At least into the higher notes.


I prefer the mens choir. Sounds tropar.(russian)..Love the particular sound of the power ahh....


----------



## dzilizzi

zimm83 said:


> I prefer the mens choir. Sounds tropar.(russian)..Love the particular sound of the power ahh....


But it is not an ahhh when it hits the louder higher notes. that is my complaint. An ahh would be fine.


----------



## whiskers

Brass/horns sound nice. Strings have good texture. But idk, not really sold


----------



## zimm83

dzilizzi said:


> But it is not an ahhh when it hits the louder higher notes. that is my complaint. An ahh would be fine.


That must be because of the fff tone...like the shouts...they go in a dissonant territory as they say in part 2....


----------



## dzilizzi

zimm83 said:


> That must be because of the fff tone...like the shouts...they go in a dissonant territory as they say in part 2....


I am a vocalist with some classical training, so I understand what is happening. They should be slightly changing the vowel as they get higher and louder, but for some reason they are not. It is what we are normally taught to do.


----------



## whiskers

dzilizzi said:


> I am a vocalist with some classical training, so I understand what is happening. They should be slightly changing the vowel as they get higher and louder, but for some reason they are not. It is what we are normally taught to do.



Gotta be honest, not a fan of the choirs in this one, especially the louder Dynamics


----------



## whiskers

Think I'll pass on this one. A few thoughts from an utter noob


String texture sounds nice and I like the overblown articulations. The power legato, while it sounds interesting seems not that useful in day to day tracks
Not a huge fan of these choirs, men especially feel too operatic for me
the winds and brass seem pretty nice but I think that's bordering on redundant to some stuff that I already have
Combinations sound interesting but not really sold on the idea. It seems like something you could essentially achieve manually with just a little more work
Overall I would say it sounds nice but not $400 nice. Just my humble opinion


----------



## Consona

I love some articulations, but things like combined patches or low strings playing in octaves bother me. I'd like some smaller library, like only strings with all those articulations to mix with and pepper my other libraries when needed, but there's so much material I don't want that I can't justify the purchase in any way.


----------



## jbuhler

whiskers said:


> Gotta be honest, not a fan of the choirs in this one, especially the louder Dynamics


The women sound ok to me, but the men, not so much, the balance doesn't seem right and though it might be great for a special effect, I imagine it getting tiresome when used much.


----------



## sostenuto

jbuhler said:


> The women sound ok to me, but the men, not so much, the balance doesn't seem right and though it might be great for a special effect, I imagine it getting tiresome when used much.



Good to see your early comments. Have you reviewed Part 2 sufficiently to offer more general assessment now of Ark 4 ….._ in context with earlier Ark(s)_ discussions ?


----------



## jbuhler

sostenuto said:


> Good to see your early comments. Have you reviewed Part 2 sufficiently to offer more general assessment now of Ark 4 ….._ in context with earlier Ark(s)_ discussions ?


Not yet. I'm slammed today at work so won't be able to give it a good listen until tonight. These are my observations from chapter 1. The men definitely had me worried already yesterday and the comments today haven't made me optimistic...


----------



## Soundlex

Am I the only one thinking that it might the best Ark yet...


----------



## jbuhler

Soundlex said:


> Am I the only one thinking that it might the best Ark yet...


More interesting than Ark 3, but for me it's not even close to either Ark 1 or 2.


----------



## Craig Sharmat

jbuhler said:


> Not yet. I'm slammed today at work so won't be able to give it a good listen until tonight. These are my observations from chapter 1. The men definitely had me worried already yesterday and the comments today haven't made me optimistic...



IMO The other Arks have covered choir pretty well, these are more like additions with a smaller group just to add another texture to the palette. If your sole purpose is to get ARK4 for the choirs you probably won't be elated....


----------



## Soundlex

jbuhler said:


> More interesting than Ark 3, but for me it's not even close to either Ark 1 or 2.


Like I said I'm probably the only one... Let me develop this:
I use the quintet in Ark3 all the time.
This string section sound even more useful to me.
I use the Ark1 strings all the time too but the 8vas piss me off half of the time.
This as the blurred without 8va and sound even more punchy. The vibrato in the power legato is beautiful!
The orchestration choices are tasteful and I can see plenty of use for them even in a JW type of score situation.
Good luck doing that with the first 3...
Kinda like a BHTK but with the Ark sound, yummy!!
Idk, it's just my opinion.


----------



## dzilizzi

Soundlex said:


> Am I the only one thinking that it might the best Ark yet...


I really think it depends on what you are looking for. I have too much new stuff that I haven't had time to really play with. I don't need anything more, but when something really grabs me and is a great price, I get it. For me, this is not it. 

Is it only me or does someone else find it funny that Spitfire releases a huge string section playing a tiny sound and OT releases tiny sections playing huge sounds?


----------



## Soundlex

dzilizzi said:


> Is it only me or does someone else find it funny that Spitfire releases a huge string section playing a tiny sound and OT releases tiny sections playing huge sounds?


Exactly!


----------



## Kony

Soundlex said:


> I use the Ark1 strings all the time too but the 8vas piss me off half of the time.


Same here - I really wish the low strings had a unison option in Ark1


----------



## jbuhler

Soundlex said:


> Like I said I'm probably the only one... Let me develop this:
> I use the quintet in Ark3 all the time.
> This string section sound even more useful to me.
> I use the Ark1 strings all the time too but the 8vas piss me off half of the time.
> This as the blurred without 8va and sound even more punchy. The vibrato in the power legato is beautiful!
> The orchestration choices are tasteful and I can see plenty of use for them even in a JW type of score situation.
> Good luck doing that with the first 3...
> Kinda like a BHTK but with the Ark sound, yummy!!
> Idk, it's just my opinion.


I think Ark 1 strings is the weakest part of that library. The strings in Ark 4 sound interesting, but I think I can get most this sound through other libraries I have. (I haven't watched the second walkthrough yet, so I may revise this opinion.) Nothing else that I've heard in Ark 4 except the choir sounds like something I can't get out of what I already have, and my initial impression of the choir, especially the men, is that it is peculiar. I'm not yet sure if that is a good or a bad thing. Again, maybe I'll revise my opinion after watching the second walkthrough and think more about the extreme attacks. I can definitely see how Ark 4 might be very useful for someone who is not already covered however. I'm speaking only for my own situation.


----------



## zimm83

Soundlex said:


> Am I the only one thinking that it might the best Ark yet...


NO no...I love this ARK 4 sound. Clear, powerful, power legato detailed chamber sound. Méga combinations. The choir : Waouh !!!
OT Rules !!!


----------



## resound

The name is gimmick-y but I was very impressed with the sound of the strings power legatos. Those string martele sustains also sound great. Not so much with the WWs and Brass though. It might be worth picking up just for those strings. Are there any other libraries that can achieve that sound?


----------



## Ruffian Price

I go nuts for small sections, thinking about it as a complement to BHCT. Some of those brass/ww combinations nicely fill out the gaps in that one.


----------



## Saxer

I can't follow the concept of pre combined instruments. What about a new drum set library... first we have a kick together with a crash, next a hi hat with a snare, then a snare wich a kick and also a crash with a snare. Then we need hi tom with a kick and hi tom with snare, same for mid and lo tom... and hi and lo tom together. And everything with an open hi hat. Now we can make a simple drum groove... Oh wait! Couldn't we do that already with any single drum library since ages? Where is the joke?


----------



## Soundlex

With recorded orchestrations you have the natural balance of the instruments AND the natural room response for this orchestration.
It's also sometimes a time/RAM saver when you have a nice tasteful instruments combination ready to go.
You don't have to call 4 or 5 instruments. Why have ensembles in libraries then...?
Because you can do it with V1+V2+Va+Cl+B right?


----------



## richardt4520

Saxer said:


> I can't follow the concept of pre combined instruments.



That's what's completely killing it for me. I LOVE those strings sounds. They sound like all those old 40s movies to me. But I just don't see ever using stuff like trumpet/english horn combos or piano/xylophone rolls combos. Ever. If for some rare thing I did need that combination for a few bars, I'd just combine instruments. Way more flexible. So even at $400 for a string library that isn't even in full sections and a bunch of instruments that I'll never use taking up space on my SSDs, it's really making me conflicted on pulling the trigger.


----------



## Saxer

Soundlex said:


> You don't have to call 4 or 5 instruments.


That's right, I have to call for 4 or 5 instruments plus the combined sampled instrument. The first 4 or 5 are for chords or solos plus the combi instruments for the unison passages. I never had a track where oboe, flute and clarinet are playing in unison all the time. Standard combination, yes, but all the time for a whole track? Never.


Soundlex said:


> Why have ensembles in libraries then...?
> Because you can do it with V1+V2+Va+Cl+B right?


Ensembles are nice for trying chords and make simple pad work. But at the end V1+V2+Va+Cl+B sounds better.


----------



## Soundlex

Saxer said:


> That's right, I have to call for 4 or 5 instruments plus the combined sampled instrument. The first 4 or 5 are for chords or solos plus the combi instruments for the unison passages. I never had a track where oboe, flute and clarinet are playing in unison all the time. Standard combination, yes, but all the time for a whole track? Never.
> 
> Ensembles are nice for trying chords and make simple pad work. But at the end V1+V2+Va+Cl+B sounds better.


And nothing on the natural balance and the room response for your "unison passages"?
I thought I had a serious point there...anyway.
You should email OT and Spitfire to let them know how silly it is to offer combined instruments.
You seem pretty concerned by it!


----------



## Saxer

Soundlex said:


> You seem pretty concerned by it!


I love a lot of the string sounds I hear in the ARK4 walkthroughs but I now I'll also never have a use for all those combis. That's the reason I pass Spitfires BH and ARK 4 too.
But a lot of those articulations would be welcome as an extension for BWW or Berlin Strings.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Saxer said:


> I can't follow the concept of pre combined instruments.


I hear you Saxer, but to be fair I think they have a philosophy behind it that you may or may not agree with. They recorded and blended the instruments in such a way that they would actually come across not as a combination but as a single new instrument. They want it to be "green", not "yellow" plus "blue".

Folks don't seem to be buying into the idea and I'm not entirely sold on it myself. They probably could have explained it better and skipped the whole "insects hardwired to floor an elephant" preamble, but hey, it's worth noting that they're going for a specific thing that was thought out.


Saxer said:


> But a lot of those articulations would be welcome as an extension for BWW or Berlin Strings.


Agreed!


----------



## sostenuto

_Just 'grumping'_, but the tough thing for 'later comers' to OT _ like me _ is that these combi(s) are quite attractive at these costs. Adding them at Eur 599, 549, later makes these 'less used' selections unattractive.
OTH _ adding 3 or 4 in one, short, Promo /Intro timeframe gives me *flatus *.... (if that rings a bell)


----------



## ChrisSiuMusic

I appreciate the concept they're going for in these combinations, creating new colours that should be viewed as new instruments. I have a feeling that we may find more use out of these specific combos than anticipated, as the timbral qualities of many of these combinations seem to be diverse enough to play an important role in a variety of situations. 

I personally love the choirs, especially the male choir, as that operatic touch from that one male voice that stands out can serve as a fronting instrument in some tracks. I'll be mentioning all this in my review.


----------



## ism

There's a perceptual dimension to this. Ensuring you get the overtones of different instruments to perceptually fuse into a single sound is of course something that we do all the time in orchestration. (And the entire discipline of voice leading is the art of not preventing perceptual fusing)

But there are also factors know to work against the perceptual fusing of overtones - stereo image, for instance can give you brain clues that it's actually yellow-basoons on the left and blue-horns on the right, preventing the fusion into green-bassoon-horns all around. Similarly differences in vibrato or dynamic phrasing (or other expressive modulations) can inhibit this fusing.


So there's at least good theoretical case that these carefully orchestrated-for-perceptual-fusing single patches may indeed be able achieve an effect that could, a least, be a lot harder to achieve by layering samples recorded separately.

In general, this does look like a fun library. Much more interesting, have seen the walkthrough, that I had initial though.


----------



## Soundlex

ism said:


> There's a perceptual dimension to this. Ensuring to get the overtones of different instrument can perceptually fuse into a single sound is of course something that we do all the time in orchestration. (And the entire discipline of voice leading is the art of not preventing perceptual fusing)
> 
> But there are also factors know to work against the perceptual fusing of overtones - stereo image, for instance can give you brain clues that it's actually yellow-basoons on the left and blue-horns on the right, preventing the fusion into green-bassoon-horns all around. Similarly differences in vibrato or dynamic phrasing (or other expressive modulations) can inhibit this fusing.
> 
> 
> So there's at least good theoretical case that these carefully orchestrated-for-perceptual-fusing single patches may indeed be able achieve an effect that could, a least, be a lot harder to achieve by layering samples recorded separately.
> 
> In general, this does look like a fun library. Much more interesting, have seen the walkthrough, that I had initial though.


This!! Thank you.


----------



## Bansi

ism said:


> There's a perceptual dimension to this. Ensuring to get the overtones of different instrument can perceptually fuse into a single sound is of course something that we do all the time in orchestration. (And the entire discipline of voice leading is the art of not preventing perceptual fusing)
> 
> But there are also factors know to work against the perceptual fusing of overtones - stereo image, for instance can give you brain clues that it's actually yellow-basoons on the left and blue-horns on the right, preventing the fusion into green-bassoon-horns all around. Similarly differences in vibrato or dynamic phrasing (or other expressive modulations) can inhibit this fusing.
> 
> 
> So there's at least good theoretical case that these carefully orchestrated-for-perceptual-fusing single patches may indeed be able achieve an effect that could, a least, be a lot harder to achieve by layering samples recorded separately.
> 
> In general, this does look like a fun library. Much more interesting, have seen the walkthrough, that I had initial though.


On the other end with yellow+blue I can make lots of different shades of green, but for that they want you to buy the Berlin series. I want to play Yellow A and Blue B flat.That's what I call chromatic choice...


----------



## sostenuto

ism said:


> There's a perceptual dimension to this. Ensuring to get the overtones of different instrument can perceptually fuse into a single sound is of course something that we do all the time in orchestration. (And the entire discipline of voice leading is the art of not preventing perceptual fusing)
> 
> But there are also factors know to work against the perceptual fusing of overtones - stereo image, for instance can give you brain clues that it's actually yellow-basoons on the left and blue-horns on the right, preventing the fusion into green-bassoon-horns all around. Similarly differences in vibrato or dynamic phrasing (or other expressive modulations) can inhibit this fusing.
> 
> 
> So there's at least good theoretical case that these carefully orchestrated-for-perceptual-fusing single patches may indeed be able achieve an effect that could, a least, be a lot harder to achieve by layering samples recorded separately.
> 
> In general, this does look like a fun library. Much more interesting, have seen the walkthrough, that I had initial though.



My sense is that there will be many more 'informed' impressions of Ark 4, as its intended uses become better understood and applied. OT and the several top-tier creators /providers, are using their immense talents to provide fresh and innovative libraries which will allow similarly talented composers /orchestrators to go in new directions. 

My severely limited, comparative talents appreciate these several new approaches. Last thing I need is another full orchestral library with little to offer than 'different' musicians, in different venues, likely using the same trusted recording devices (since there are few better).

Thank-you *@ ism*, and others, for balancing the bell-curve fringes with thoughtful and open minds !


----------



## Forecheck

Any guess on how this would pair with SCS/BHCT/OT Inspire 2/OT BS 1st chair? I'm a guitar/B3 classic rock/prog guy wanting one or two great sounding VIs to add mostly strings and maybe winds/brass into compositions. I have EWSO Gold Play and can't stand the wetness - I want 'present' sounding instruments (think Elenor Rigby - which OT First Chars reminds me of). 

Budget is a concern so one or maybe two are doable, with the sales and possible Wish List. Love the sounds I'm hearing from SCS (been wanting this for a while but it is the most expensive) and the new ARK 4 (has quickly become a co-favorite - recency effect?). Could see myself doing some Epic as a secondary focus. Thoughts? Deadlines are making this tough to consider rationally!


----------



## ism

Bansi said:


> On the other end with yellow+blue I can make lots of different shades of green, but for that they want you to buy the Berlin series. I want to play Yellow A and Blue B flat.That's what I call chromatic choice...



Absolutely. Plus, getting in and mixing your own colours is very often the fun part (and finger painting is arguably one of the better metaphors how I personally approach composition  )


But there's also a point at which the colour metaphor breaks down, in that hearing involves a hierarchy of perceptual and cognitive dimensions, different from visual perception of colour. 'Blending' of sound occurs in our minds in multiple ways - harmonically, texturally (as in foreground and background textural layers etc), as well as a lower level of perceptual blending of individual overtones. You can get sounds to blend onto a single layer, or into a single chord without actually invoking the lower level perceptual effects in which the overruns are fused into a single perceptual process. 

So, for instance, in a complex 4 part voice leading where perceptual independence of the lines is paramount, if you have two different instruments playing a single line, then even small differences in, for instance, the vibrato might conceivably break the perceptual independence of that line, causing your mind to scramble to try to interpret a 5 part voice leading, and since 4 part voice leading already has human perception push right to it's edge (*) his could break the voice leading for all but the most attentive listeners (**). Or maybe, for a listener failing to grasp a 5 part voice leading instead, this out of sync vibrato might then just break the voice leading altogether. It's a bit like the collapse of the wave function in quantum mechanism (if that's a helpful metaphor).


So a lot of the time when I really enjoy the finger-paining like process of mixing colours into sounds, its about them much easier colours on textural layers a lot more often than it is about separate perceptual streams. Sometime its possible to blend within a signal perceptual layers, but as the number of independent parts in the voice leading goes up, it gets a lot harder, very quickly. 


Anyway, I am not nearly a sophisticated enough orchestrator to predict how amazing or not amazing this perceptual fusion based approach to orchestration of Ark4 will be. Just saying that there's a good theoretical basis on which to argue that it might be a really fun thing to try. 

Hopefully I'll get the chance to play with it someday.


(*) I've always suspected that by they time he got to 5 and 6 part counterpoint, Bach was really just showing off. Modern perceptual science suggests that my suspicion was not unreasonably, in that 3 independent perceptual sound streams is normal for the human mind. 4 is entirely possible, but much hard to achieve. 5 is apparently not impossible, but probably going to take Bach-like powers of voice leading and an extremely talented and attentive listener. 6, well I'm pretty sure that's just showing off.

(**) All of this assumes we're orchestrating for an audience of humans of course. If you're orchestrating for, say, dolphins, then I'd expect their perceptual capacities would open up entirely new possibilities - and difficulties - in orchestration. Not that there's been a lot written on how to orchestrate for dolphins yet, so far as I know.


----------



## Parsifal666

ism said:


> (*) I've always suspected that by they time he got to 5 and 6 part counterpoint, Bach was really just showing off. Modern perceptual science suggests that my suspicion was not unreasonably, in that 3 independent perceptual sound streams is normal for the human mind. 4 is entirely possible, but much hard to achieve. 5 is apparently not impossible, but probably going to take Bach-like powers of voice leading and an extremely talented and attentive listener. 6, well I'm pretty sure that's just showing off.



Well, when to this day literally thousands of people consider you the greatest composer whom ever lived, it's called "showin' yer skills, yo!"





lol!


----------



## tim727

Semi off-topic, but does it drive anyone else nuts the way the guy in the walkthroughs flagrantly mispronounces certain words (i.e. Wagner, Cimbasso, Col Legno)? I know this shouldn't be a huge deal but it makes me cringe. Beyond that though, the same thing happened in prior Ark walkthroughs, so don't you think that someone at OT would have informed the guy of his error so that he could correct it? If I were running a VI company I couldn't imagine letting an error like that go uncorrected. But then again ... I don't run a VI company, so there's that.


----------



## ism

Parsifal666 said:


> Well, when to this day literally thousands of people consider you the greatest composer whom ever lived, it's called "showin' yer skills, yo!"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lol!




Too true.  I just remember sitting in a voice leading class, surrounds by music majors who, (presumably) could all follow ( because they were, like , proper musicians) the six part counter point in Bach and thinking ... 'what the ....'

And maybe Bach would gone for 7 part fully orchestral counterpoint if only he'd only he had Ark 4. 

Although I think Verdi has a go at 9, I think its somewhere in Othello, quite unaided by OT.

Regardless, lots of potential for Ark4 to be genuinely very fun.


----------



## aelwyn

tim727 said:


> Semi off-topic, but does it drive anyone else nuts the way the guy in the walkthroughs flagrantly mispronounces certain words



OT's a German company, and considering the voice in the walkthrough videos is an unaccented American one, I'd guess he's just a hired voice actor. At my company, we occasionally have to hire out voiceover actors for videos we produce, and, speaking from personal experience, if you don't give them a script with pronunciations spelled out phonetically, there's no telling what you'll end up with. I'll admit I actually sort of get a kick out of it. But I'm weird.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

tim727 said:


> Semi off-topic, but does it drive anyone else nuts the way the guy in the walkthroughs flagrantly mispronounces certain words (i.e. Wagner, Cimbasso, Col Legno)?


Yeah...most of the time I think Orchestral Tools is brilliant, but sometimes I have no earthly clue what is going through their heads.


----------



## Bansi

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Yeah...most of the time I think Orchestral Tools is brilliant, but sometimes I have no earthly clue what is going through their heads.


He is a german guy from OT probably, doing his best


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Bansi said:


> He is german probably


A German who pronounces Wagner like _that_? 

Maybe a German doing an impression of an American.


----------



## Soundlex

Maybe all the Arks and their walkthrough were done at the same time a while ago... that might be why they could not correct it.


----------



## jbuhler

No power legato on the kick drums. How disappointing!

More seriously, having listened to walkthrough 2 now, I thought the woodwinds have a few useful articulations, the flute/picc shorts and overblown are excellent, but mostly they seem oddities, especially the ones that mix winds and brass ("edgy and quirky" indeed). (I'm going to keep my ears peeled for some of these stranger combinations to see if they start making regular appearances in film, television, and game scores.) Aside: "Wagner Tube" sounds like a water park ride. Really not hearing anything in the brass that I find compelling. Nothing bad, just seems pretty redundant with things I already have. Why they didn't do something with muted brass sections is beyond me.

I mostly like the women's choir, though it has moments where individual voices pop out. It works in the walkthrough, but might get tiresome if the same sample keeps getting hit and that one voice just refuses to blend every time. The men are good soft, but as they pass to the mf samples the voices become uneven, especially as they climb in register. The power legato for the voices, especially the men, sounds especially odd to me, beyond the issue of the voices not blending, to the legato samples not fitting well with the sustains—or something. Maybe it's just me. Perhaps it will be fine in context where you have the orchestra to distract and cover and more reverb on the sample. On the other hand, I adore the shouts, which brings the Arks one step closer to the complete Carmina Burana sound—that rather than Huppertz's score to Metropolis has always seemed to me to be the actual musical inspiration for the Arks. (The elements of the Arks that extend beyond the Carmina sound world—aside from the rock band of Ark 1 and some of the percussion—belong mostly to the post-Wagnerian world of Austrian/German music between 1900 and 1930 that inspired both Huppertz and Orff.)

I also rewatched the first walkthrough. I disliked the power legato multi—not surprising since I disliked the power legato pretty much every time I heard it whatever the instrument—but the staccatissimo multi sounded great. The ricochet multi just sounds weird, though I generally liked the articulation in the individual instruments. The strings sound very good indeed, albeit they seem to be limited. (I'll be interested to hear the reports on this when folks get their hands on it.)

Overall impressions: The strings are the strongest element of this library. That's a good addition because strings have imho been the weakest element in the other Arks. Except for the choir, the high volume fff stuff is best and would add an edgy sound that most of my existing libraries don't really have. The choir shouts, especially the men, are great. And most of the combinations just seem peculiar rather than offering an interesting new timbre (like the combinations in libraries BHCT or the Symphobia series). 

I'll be most interested in seeing what people make of it once it's released. At this point I don't think I'll be buying it unless I hear things from those who do that convinces me that this will add enough value to what I have.


----------



## sostenuto

jbuhler said:


> No power legato on the kick drums. How disappointing! ********
> ******** Overall impressions: The strings are the strongest element of this library. That's a good addition because strings have imho been the weakest element in the other Arks. Except for the choir, the high volume fff stuff is best and would add an edgy sound that most of my existing libraries don't really have. The choir shouts, especially the men, are great. And most of the combinations just seem peculiar rather than offering an interesting new timbre (like the combinations in libraries BHCT or the Symphobia series).
> I'll be most interested in seeing what people make of it once it's released. At this point I don't think I'll be buying it unless I hear things from those who do that convinces me that this will add enough value to what I have.



Good to hear these impressions, and decision to wait seems sensible …. of course impacted by current set of libraries.
One issue now, is the stated 'eventual' price increase of ~57%, which can have marked impact for some.

Your initial strong points can make a case for 'gambling' that the current Intro price will bring reasonable returns …. and possibly more for some users. Obviously no conclusion for that; but keeps Ark 4 'on the table' for at least another 4 days. 

Many thanks, especially after a tough work day !


----------



## jbuhler

sostenuto said:


> Good to hear these impressions, and decision to wait seems sensible …. of course impacted by current set of libraries.
> One issue now, is the stated 'eventual' price increase of ~57%, which can have marked impact for some.


The choice is also not so stark for me, as I can use an EDU discount at a later time rather than waiting to see if OT puts it on sale next year.


----------



## jcrosby

ism said:


> There's a perceptual dimension to this. Ensuring you get the overtones of different instruments to perceptually fuse into a single sound is of course something that we do all the time in orchestration. (And the entire discipline of voice leading is the art of not preventing perceptual fusing)
> 
> But there are also factors know to work against the perceptual fusing of overtones - stereo image, for instance can give you brain clues that it's actually yellow-basoons on the left and blue-horns on the right, preventing the fusion into green-bassoon-horns all around. Similarly differences in vibrato or dynamic phrasing (or other expressive modulations) can inhibit this fusing.
> 
> 
> So there's at least good theoretical case that these carefully orchestrated-for-perceptual-fusing single patches may indeed be able achieve an effect that could, a least, be a lot harder to achieve by layering samples recorded separately.
> 
> In general, this does look like a fun library. Much more interesting, have seen the walkthrough, that I had initial though.



Yeah, this is why I prefer librararies recorded in the same space. No matter how close I can get using reverb, placement, filtering etc, there is a cohesiveness that I haven’t been able to achieve with disparate libraries. (Let alone the gorgeous character the Telfex stage already imparts...) 

This is one of the few libraries where I truly love the baked in reverb.


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

Soundlex said:


> With recorded orchestrations you have [...] the natural room response for this orchestration.



Which is incredibly overrated!


----------



## ProfoundSilence

I too prefer Hendrik's walkthroughs... I think the issue is the misconception that foreign company means little to no product support. 

and arguably, there are plenty of german companies who basically don't have support for anyone outside of their home country. Roland is decent, but still some products only have support phone numbers 3 days a week in English. Back in the day if something Behringer broke it might as well get thrown away(not sure if this has changed the past few decades, because I haven't ever purchased anything from them again)

Ive had no problem getting ahold of OT support, but many companies(like Native Instruments) feels like pulling teeth to get support for, and again, no US phone support or anything. 

That's the only thing I can imagine OT is trying to appeal to with a voice actor... But anyone with a brain should probably already know that teldex is in germany, so all in all - we just get some cheesy American sounding guy who can't pronounce words like pianississimo, and just says pianissimo. Normally his weird errors don't mean much(other than erking some musicians) but in this case, he completely understated one of the key features of this library - which is that the recorded dynamics are from ppp-fff, not pp-ff(which is basically just berlin series)

personally, I've never had an issue with Hendrik's accent or anything... I have a harder time understanding some of the people I follow from NZ/AU


----------



## tim727

aelwyn said:


> OT's a German company, and considering the voice in the walkthrough videos is an unaccented American one, I'd guess he's just a hired voice actor. At my company, we occasionally have to hire out voiceover actors for videos we produce, and, speaking from personal experience, if you don't give them a script with pronunciations spelled out phonetically, there's no telling what you'll end up with. I'll admit I actually sort of get a kick out of it. But I'm weird.



Well the thing is it's one thing for it to happen on the walkthroughs for the first Ark let's say, but the fact that the mistake keeps repeating? It would almost make one think that the OT guys are even watching the vids before releasing ... which wouldn't really make any sense. I mean it's not a big deal of course, but it's just ... bizarre.


----------



## MartinH.

tim727 said:


> Well the thing is it's one thing for it to happen on the walkthroughs for the first Ark let's say, but the fact that the mistake keeps repeating? It would almost make one think that the OT guys are even watching the vids before releasing ... which wouldn't really make any sense. I mean it's not a big deal of course, but it's just ... bizarre.



Or maybe they said "fuck it, it's good enough" because it would cause a delay of 1 or 2 days to get the voice actor to re-record a couple of errors he made, re-edit and re-upload the video while the vi:c thread is wrecking havoc and screaming for a walkthrough? I'd rather have such a video sooner than have it more polished, so I'm willing to cut them lots of slack there.


----------



## Satorious

Not been following in too much detail, but just watched/listened to the walk-throughs. From what I heard I'm slightly relieved, it didn't demonstrate enough to properly sway me. There were some parts I liked but it ultimately came down to getting $400 of value out of this library (either in terms of offering something amazing/new, something versatile or speeding up my workflow). I got the sense that a number of these patches aren't going to work well on faster passages. I need to save some money after all these Black Friday/Christmas deals, so I'll tune back in after it's released to see if I missed something obvious. For the money, I'd rather pay a little more to know it's a good choice than to rush into it...


----------



## Lassi Tani

Satorious said:


> Not been following in too much detail, but just watched/listened to the walk-throughs. From what I heard I'm slightly relieved, it didn't demonstrate enough to properly sway me. There were some parts I liked but it ultimately came down to getting $400 of value out of this library (either in terms of offering something amazing/new, something versatile or speeding up my workflow). I got the sense that a number of these patches aren't going to work well on faster passages. I need to save some money after all these Black Friday/Christmas deals, so I'll tune back in after it's released to see if I missed something obvious. For the money, I'd rather pay a little more to know it's a good choice than to rush into it...



I have similar thoughts. I've watched the trailer and walkthroughs, and I haven't heard anything for which I would pay the price. I like some parts of it a lot, e.g. strings, but I wouldn't need the combinations for my writing style at least for now. They sound great, but I think I'd like to separate the parts in some passages. The choirs especially men sound weird in higher dynamics.

I'll wait for the next year's black friday .


----------



## aelwyn

Satorious said:


> Not been following in too much detail, but just watched/listened to the walk-throughs. From what I heard I'm slightly relieved, it didn't demonstrate enough to properly sway me...



Good — it's not just me, then. I'm normally seduced by *everything* OT does and I've loved Arks 1-3, but this one isn't moving me for some reason. I wish I could buy the strings portion separately, frankly. I hardly spent anything on libraries for this year's crop of Black Friday sales, so I'm not even struggling with guilt about overspending... but Ark 4 sort of seems overpriced. Even with the pre-order discount. I'm surprised to feel that way, given my past enthusiasm for the series.


----------



## tim727

MartinH. said:


> Or maybe they said "fuck it, it's good enough" because it would cause a delay of 1 or 2 days to get the voice actor to re-record a couple of errors he made, re-edit and re-upload the video while the vi:c thread is wrecking havoc and screaming for a walkthrough? I'd rather have such a video sooner than have it more polished, so I'm willing to cut them lots of slack there.



Perhaps. And yeah if it's between correcting it or a delay then I probably agree. I'm just saying that if it were my company ... after the mess-up on the first Ark 1 walkthroughs I would have notified the guy of the mistake and before he recorded himself for the Ark 4 walkthrough I would have been like "Hey Joe, remember what I told you about the pronunciation of those words a couple years ago? Let's be sure to get it right this time." Apparently that didn't happen though


----------



## tim727

On a completely separate note it looks like a lot of people on this forum are not particularly psyched about this lib. If this forum is a representative population of their users (which I actually believe it is, though I could be wrong) then it would appear that their sales of this Ark will fall far behind the others (or at least 1 and 2).


----------



## Forecheck

aelwyn said:


> Good — it's not just me, then. I'm normally seduced by *everything* OT does and I've loved Arks 1-3, but this one isn't moving me for some reason. I wish I could buy the strings portion separately, frankly.



As a quasi-noob trying to decide on this (I love the tone compared to my only library EWSO Gold, which I dislike because of the wetness) what might be good alternatives to get a similar powerful, present tone? 

BHCT? MA 1/2? SCS? LCSO? BS FC? What about MA 4 with one of the Inspires? MA 4 with L&S CS? Or some other combination (looking for dry and present, with an emphasis on strings). Thanks!


----------



## Kony

Forecheck said:


> As a quasi-noob trying to decide on this (I love the tone compared to my only library EWSO Gold, which I dislike because of the wetness) what might be good alternatives to get a similar powerful, present tone?
> 
> BHCT? MA 1/2? SCS? LCSO? BS FC? What about MA 4 with one of the Inspires? MA 4 with L&S CS? Or some other combination (looking for dry and present, with an emphasis on strings). Thanks!


LASS for dry strings


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

I wonder if their huge sales lately are having an impact on peoples perception of value on this latest Metropolis Ark?


----------



## jbuhler

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> I wonder if their huge sales lately are having an impact on peoples perception of value on this latest Metropolis Ark?


We'll see how their sales go. I suspect they miscalculated, and were too clever by half trying to avoid duplicating and/or competing with their own other libraries. 

I think if they'd offered ensemble upper woodwinds in sections (mf to power legato, with all the overblown stuff) and muted brass (done however they needed to distinguish them from the muted Berlin Brass) they'd have had a real winner. As it is, other than the strings, the picc/flute patch, the woodwind ensemble patch, and the choral shouts I'm just not sure what I'd use. And I already have several woodwind ensemble patches that do the flute, oboe, clarinet thing, so I'm not even sure that would get any use. Is that enough to justify the cost? Well, if the strings were going to become my go-to string library, maybe. But I don't see that happening. I'm always open to modifying my current impression as I learn more, so we'll see.


----------



## sostenuto

Do the current Previews /Videos provide solid enough content and presentation to have a fair sense of what the release will actually be ? 
Hate like heck to pass on this Intro cost and then have early adopters rave about most of Ark4 ….


----------



## jbuhler

sostenuto said:


> Do the current Previews /Videos provide solid enough content and presentation to have a fair sense of what the release will actually be ?
> Hate like heck to pass on this Intro cost and then have early adopters rave about most of Ark4 ….


I think reasonably, but we don't have a good sense of how it works contextually, since there is only one demo. I suspect the high volume choral sounds might cause some issues with voices popping out in annoying ways, but it's hard to say from what we saw. It's really hard to know what to make of those novel combination patches until you see someone sit down with it and try to make it work. It will be most interesting to see someone build a track with the library, which will be most revealing about its real capabilities and limitations, but that won't happen until after the pre-release price expires to the introductory price.


----------



## richardt4520

jbuhler said:


> I think if they'd offered ensemble upper woodwinds in sections (mf to power legato, with all the overblown stuff) and muted brass (done however they needed to distinguish them from the muted Berlin Brass) they'd have had a real winner. As it is, other than the strings, the picc/flute patch, the woodwind ensemble patch, and the choral shouts I'm just not sure what I'd use.


You hit the nail on the head. +1
Maybe Ark5? Lol The sounds i do like are so good though that i'm still considering...


----------



## sostenuto

Now questioning my personal, evolving mindset …. re. top tier providers. One side trusts their talent and capabilities. Other side wonders if they could stumble hugely … especially coming from recognized successes with Arks 1,2,3. Not saying flawless; and not expecting flawless.

If '_comfortable_' purchases included Arks 2, 3, 4, then easy to just trust and move forward. 
'_Comfortable_' purchases actually include one or two Arks. Asking 'what do I need' does not help, as expectations are longer-term. Ark 2 is a done deal _ 3 or 4 is still foggy as heck. 

Seems like many feel a solid complementary relationship with Arks 1 & 2. 
One 'fuzziness' here is whether there is any such tie with 2 & 3, or if itis more 3 & 4 ?


----------



## Kony

sostenuto said:


> Now questioning my personal, evolving mindset …. re. top tier providers. One side trusts their talent and capabilities. Other side wonders if they could stumble hugely … especially coming from recognized successes with Arks 1,2,3. Not saying flawless; and not expecting flawless.
> 
> If '_comfortable_' purchases included Arks 2, 3, 4, then easy to just trust and move forward.
> '_Comfortable_' purchases actually include one or two Arks. Asking 'what do I need' does not help, as expectations are longer-term. Ark 2 is a done deal _ 3 or 4 is still foggy as heck.
> 
> Seems like many feel a solid complementary relationship with Arks 1 & 2.
> One 'fuzziness' here is whether there is any such tie with 2 & 3, or if itis more 3 & 4 ?


I think Ark 1-3 are a tie-in package - not sure about 4 and it feels like OT were not sure what to do for this release which may explain some of the weird combinations. OT probably should have focused on a choir library, or made choir the focus for Ark 4.


----------



## jamwerks

Most of these combos sound great to me. And I've come to realize that real combos sound so much better than separate instruments. The 2Trp, Fl-Picc, & the Fl-Ob-Cl combos here make it worth the price on their own.


----------



## sostenuto

Monday, Dec 17, drives the Ark3 selection. Close tug-o-war vs Ark4.

…… and now *@ jamwerks* and *@ Alex Niedt* grease the Ark 4 gears ……….


----------



## Mike Fox

Kony said:


> I think Ark 1-3 are a tie-in package - not sure about 4 and it feels like OT were not sure what to do for this release which may explain some of the weird combinations. OT probably should have focused on a choir library, or made choir the focus for Ark 4.


Exactly. OT absolutely kills it with their choirs, and I have no idea why they haven't made a full fledged choir library yet.

Ark 4 seems a bit unnecessary and out of place, especially when everyone is dying for OT to make a choir library.


----------



## tim727

Mike Fox said:


> Exactly. OT absolutely kills it with their choirs, and I have no idea why they haven't made a full fledged choir library yet.
> 
> Ark 4 seems a bit unnecessary when everyone is dying for OT to make a choir library.



It really is bizarre. They even admitted in the first Ark 4 walkthrough something to the effect of "we know everyone loves our choirs" ...


----------



## zimm83

tim727 said:


> It really is bizarre. They even admitted in the first Ark 4 walkthrough something to the effect of "we know everyone loves our choirs" ...


ARk 4 is the upront of the Arks. When you have ark1 2 and 3 you can add the "chamber size " detailed sound you won't find in the other arks. Detail and combos is what you get. And some artics fit with ark3 artics.
We all know that 2 walkthroughs don't show what the library is capable of....Think of DJ's reviews of arks. Much more detailed and....in action.
And with all the mics, you can get whatever sound you like....
They haven't shown us the orchestra mix sections...and the rest of the multis.
We will see.....but i have never been disappointed by Orchestral Tools.

I think next year we will have Berlin Choirs...


----------



## jamwerks

Yes their choir sounds are among the best and also a really strong selling point for IV. I could see them purposely never doing a dedicated choir, and doing several more arcs, little by little completing their "choir library" with each arc!


----------



## Raphioli

Regarding the Berlin series, after listening to the strings,
I feel like they might make Berlin Chamber Strings. If they are, they need to implement that aggressive bowing they have in Ark 4 and of course power legato as well.

The strings sound nice in this library, although I'm not ready to spend $400 just on strings.
But I would be interested in a dedicated string library which sounds like this. (and I thought I had enough string libraries....)


----------



## Goldie Zwecker

I listened to both walkthrus and it sounds awesome to me. Don't understand the criticism, but that's me. Compared to BHCT i also have, it seems they sound very different. Between ark 1, 2, 3, Spitfire symohonic orchestra, chamber strings, BHCT, tundra etc - can't think of any of my libraries that can duplicate the sounds coming from ark 4.


----------



## tim727

Goldie Zwecker said:


> I listened to both walkthrus and it sounds awesome to me. Don't understand the criticism, but that's me. Compared to BHCT i also have, it seems they sound very different. Between ark 1, 2, 3, Spitfire symohonic orchestra, chamber strings, BHCT, tundra etc - can't think of any of my libraries that can duplicate the sounds coming from ark 4.



I guess it just depends on what kinds of sounds interest different people. To me I do think it all sounds really good ... but I just personally don't see the utility in just about any of the "combo" patches. The strings and the choirs are what seem like they'd be really useful to me. I think many others feel similarly. As such I think the criticism by and large is less about the sound itself and more about the utility of that sound for one's personal use, if you get what I'm saying.


----------



## Raphioli

tim727 said:


> I guess it just depends on what kinds of sounds interest different people.


I really agree. The strings are versatile and the combo patches within the sections (combinations within woodwinds or within brass section) also seem useful, but the blends I think really would depend on the user.
But I understand their direction. 
If they keep on doing simple combinations within the woodwind/brass sections, they're eventually going to clash against their Berlin series. (which they obviously would want to avoid)


----------



## jbuhler

tim727 said:


> As such I think the criticism by and large is less about the sound itself and more about the utility of that sound for one's personal use, if you get what I'm saying.


Yes, my concern is also with the utility of the combo patches. I'm also concerned about some of the louder choral patches. I'll be curious what people think as they start working with them. I also dislike the sound of the power legato, but that's likely a personal thing. 


Raphioli said:


> If they keep on doing simple combinations within the woodwind/brass sections, they're eventually going to clash against their Berlin series. (which they obviously would want to avoid)


I don't know, constructing peculiar combinations doesn't strike me as a good way to avoid the problem of competing with their own library. Here again, I'll be interested in what people make of the combinations once they start working with the library.


----------



## MillsMixx

Goldie Zwecker said:


> I listened to both walkthrus and it sounds awesome to me. Don't understand the criticism, but that's me. Compared to BHCT i also have, it seems they sound very different. Between ark 1, 2, 3, Spitfire symohonic orchestra, chamber strings, BHCT, tundra etc - can't think of any of my libraries that can duplicate the sounds coming from ark 4.



True. The only thing that can duplicate the sound of Ark 4 are the Arks themselves. At least from what I'm experiencing. I own 1, 2, & 3. While watching the 2nd walk-through and I actually went through and pulled up same/similar instruments from the my other Ark libraries. (for example Horn Wagner Tuba & Trombone) and played them in combo together to see if I could create the sound of Ark 4.

Spot on my friends! Smaller Ark 4 sections aside they sound pretty damn close! Close enough to justify saving 400 bucks. Sure there are quite a few other articulations but honestly 1, 2, & 3 have you covered. Especially 1 & 2. Ark 3 is pretty bombastic (but in a beautiful way).

Still I can't help think I might be kicking myself later if I don't pick this one up. Next year there will be a blank space in my Kontakt library tab when 5 rolls around lol. And of course its arranged and presented beautifully like the others with their districts...and the choir offerings. wow.

Unlike a lot of comments I actually like "mixed or blended" instrument combos similar to Spitfire's BHCT. We've all spent time I'm sure mixing and blending various instruments from our libraries and maybe even creating Multis, but since this is presented for us in a nice well thought out package (by people who know a hell of a lot more about orchestral combinations than I do) it's pretty cool and a welcome addition. I see a lot more future libraries going this route in days ahead.


----------



## Silence-is-Golden

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> I appreciate the concept they're going for in these combinations, creating new colours that should be viewed as new instruments. I have a feeling that we may find more use out of these specific combos than anticipated, as the timbral qualities of many of these combinations seem to be diverse enough to play an important role in a variety of situations


in terms of texture/colours yes, they indeed could find use. And being recorded as they are its hard to "reproduce" with seperate sampled instruments layered together (but possible to some degree). 

In my experience the greatest downfall with the combos is that they are limited by either: the overlapping range of the instruments, and/or the chosen sampled range of the instruments. This becomes an obstacle when the piece you are creating in a specific key asks for a melodic or chord structure that is (just) outside the range of the provided combo. 

Nonetheless the combo's themselves provide new orchestration idea's that doesn't require the purchase of Ark4. 

To me the strings are the main attraction


----------



## MartinH.

jamwerks said:


> Yes their choir sounds are among the best and also a really strong selling point for IV. I could see them purposely never doing a dedicated choir, and doing several more arcs, little by little completing their "choir library" with each arc!



I think that's quite possible. The Arks seem to be a series that is designed so that they complement each other, but aren't very complete on their own. So I'll doubt we'll ever see an "Ark 5: The complete choir", because that would be "too universal" as a standalone choir library for someone who doesn't own any of the other Arks, and has too much overlap for people who do. That would rather be "Berlin choirs" I think. My bets for Ark 5 are either focus on aleatoric fx or evolving orchestral textures.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

When is Ark 5 coming out?

Loyalty discount?


----------



## Parsifal666

This might be a Black Friday purchase for next year...maybe. I just don't see myself needing this except for that bit of inspiration coming from a new library. 

Berlin Woodwinds is _*far*_ more of a priority for me...


----------



## jules

Zoot_Rollo said:


> When is Ark 5 coming out?
> 
> Loyalty discount?


Once a year. As locusts. So next stop is december 2019.


----------



## zimm83

Goldie Zwecker said:


> I listened to both walkthrus and it sounds awesome to me. Don't understand the criticism, but that's me. Compared to BHCT i also have, it seems they sound very different. Between ark 1, 2, 3, Spitfire symohonic orchestra, chamber strings, BHCT, tundra etc - can't think of any of my libraries that can duplicate the sounds coming from ark 4.


+1


----------



## MartinH.

jules said:


> Once a year. As locusts. So next stop is december 2019.



Speaking of locusts, maybe it's gonna be Ark 5: The orchestral swarm. Huge section sizes with unusual articulations.


----------



## Brian Nowak

tim727 said:


> I guess it just depends on what kinds of sounds interest different people. To me I do think it all sounds really good ... but I just personally don't see the utility in just about any of the "combo" patches. The strings and the choirs are what seem like they'd be really useful to me. I think many others feel similarly. As such I think the criticism by and large is less about the sound itself and more about the utility of that sound for one's personal use, if you get what I'm saying.



Yes, and a part of me does wonder if I'm just being a bit too hard on the release as a way of avoiding wanting to buy it - ha!

It's not that those instrument pairings don't sound good. It's just that those pairings have a very particular identity and I think about how many times I can refer to those color choices before I start to sound like I'm making poor arrangement choices as a composer. 

Thus, I would have to be very careful and choosy about how I would use roughly half of this library. It's not like having 9 French horns, 3 bass trombones, or even octave strings. They are incredibly particular sounds that, if referenced too often, will haunt me.


----------



## jbuhler

MartinH. said:


> My bets for Ark 5 are either focus on aleatoric fx or evolving orchestral textures.


This seems to be what Tine Macro is. Indeed I’m still convinced that the idea for Time Macro emerged from the initial discussions on what Ark 4 should be. In any case, I find Time Macro fits nicely with the other Arks and offers me more in the Ark sound world as I understand it than does Ark 4. Still waiting to be convinced that Ark 4 will be worth the price to me.


----------



## richhickey

Raphioli said:


> Regarding the Berlin series, after listening to the strings,
> I feel like they might make Berlin Chamber Strings. If they are, they need to implement that aggressive bowing they have in Ark 4 and of course power legato as well.
> 
> The strings sound nice in this library, although I'm not ready to spend $400 just on strings.
> But I would be interested in a dedicated string library which sounds like this. (and I thought I had enough string libraries....)



+1 Berlin Chamber Strings would be an instabuy for me. 4/4/3/3/2 ?


----------



## ism

I’m surprisingly convinced by what I’m hearing in Ark 4. The other Arks are strike me as perfectly nice to have epic libraries - but not doing epic myself, they’ve never felt essential (maybe the exception is Ark 2 choirs) especially at their crazy price points. Ark 4 though - and I’m surprised that my initial skepticism has faded - really does feel like a real innovation on solid, and unexpected, concept.

Not something I would have thought I needed, and still not essential enough to buy at that price (especially when I would probably never use any of the brass, percussion, keyboards etc of any of the arks). But still, I’m quite convinced that there’s something unique here that I would really love to have.

It seems a reasonable theory that Time Macro evolved out of Ark 4 brainstorming. And I’d add that for all it can’t escape (interesting and valuable) comparisons with certain Spitfire libraries, I can see now that it’s also a direct descendent of Ark 3 , and maintains a very distinct OT vision. It really not as similar to Orchestral swarm as it first appears, for instance. And it works - both conceptually and sonically - amazing well with the spitfire libs, even if I haven’t quite got my head fully around the conceptual side of exactly why it works so well.

Ark 4 though - I don’t think I would use it quite the way it seems to be intended. It strikes me that bits of it could be used for subtleties that don’t really fit with the agressive epic ethos that runs through the marketing. I have the same sense with Ark 2. I’d love to have them just to experiment with how they would work in non-epic work. But this would be an expensive, experiment and, there’s probably better investments for non-epic work to be made (like, gosh I hope they’ll have a sale on Winds exp b).


Still, this NI sale suggests that the market is changing, perhaps even dramatically. So perhaps they’ll find ways to segment the market, or expand it, or something, that afford people like myself an entry into the OT world. Time Macro was a pretty good start.


----------



## jbuhler

ism said:


> Ark 4 though - I don’t think I would use it quite the way it seems to be intended. It strikes me that bits of it could be used for subtleties that don’t really fit with the agressive epic ethos that runs through the marketing. I have the same sense with Ark 2. I’d love to have them just to experiment with how they would work in non-epic work. But this would be an expensive, experiment and, there’s probably better investments for non-epic work to be made (like, gosh I hope they’ll have a sale on Winds exp b).


The overblown articulations sound very nice, as do the choral shouts, and my initial impression is that the strings will turn out to be the most useful of the Ark strings. If I end up getting it, it will almost certainly be for those things....

I don't do that much epic stuff either—at least not by the current meaning of the term—but I love the sound world of Austrian-German music 1900-1930, and the Arks are an excellent base for that. 

If you don't already have it, you might also look at Sphere, which has all kinds of nice fingered tremolos through the trill orchestrator, and the sound has always struck me as more of the French impressionist line refracted through Disney's orchestration practice than either the Berlin or especially the Ark series.


----------



## sostenuto

jbuhler said:


> The overblown articulations sound very nice, as do the choral shouts, and my initial impression is that the strings will turn out to be the most useful of the Ark strings. ***************
> If you don't already have it, you might also look at Sphere, which has all kinds of nice fingered tremolos through the trill orchestrator, and the sound has always struck me as more of the French impressionist line refracted through Disney's orchestration practice than either the Berlin or especially the Ark series.



Without a 'pressing' project, or mainstream focus …… and …. having Ark 1 & 2 , do you feel it reasonable 'now' that order of Ark 3 & 4 acquisition is not so important ? 
Sphere is no on list, at current, attractive cost.


----------



## whiskers

sostenuto said:


> Without a 'pressing' project, or mainstream focus …… and …. having Ark 1 & 2 , do you feel it reasonable 'now' that order of Ark 3 & 4 acquisition is not so important ?
> Sphere is no on list, at current, attractive cost.


Wondering if Sphere would be too redundant to Time MACRO


----------



## sostenuto

Solid question ! Also have Time Macro and failed to consider this.


----------



## whiskers

sostenuto said:


> Solid question ! Also have Time Macro and failed to consider this.


Seems to be a lot of overlap with harps and glissando, etc., But unsure


----------



## jbuhler

sostenuto said:


> Without a 'pressing' project, or mainstream focus …… and …. having Ark 1 & 2 , do you feel it reasonable 'now' that order of Ark 3 & 4 acquisition is not so important ?
> Sphere is no on list, at current, attractive cost.


For me, I would say Arks 3 & 4 are not so important. Ark 3 is harder to say though since I have it. And I admit that it is incredibly fun to take out those multis now and then. But as I've said I don't find I use it much. Others on the forum, however, swear by it, so I think for some styles of music it can be an essential tool. I'm still assessing Ark 4, which has some very good content along with its more peculiar content (and even that sounds good, except for the power legato which I didn't like in any of the instruments), but at the moment I'm leaning against buying Ark 4 as I think other libraries will be more valuable to me.

I like Sphere and the current NI price is excellent, but it's more an auxiliary library for doing some things like fingered tremolo that other libraries don't generally have.


----------



## jules

MartinH. said:


> Speaking of locusts, maybe it's gonna be Ark 5: The orchestral swarm. Huge section sizes with unusual articulations.


Yes, i realy would like to see them explore some unusual territories with the fifth installment !


----------



## jbuhler

whiskers said:


> Seems to be a lot of overlap with harps and glissando, etc., But unsure


Sphere has a fully sampled harp—it's not my favorite harp but it gets the job done and it has some nice stuff in it—so it's quite different from the one in Time Macro, where it is doubled with vibe (a combination that is quite marvelous and very different and more successful, I think, from the kind of combinations OT is trying to do in Ark 4). The string and woodwind articulations in Sphere are pretty normal—longs, shorts, etc., but no legato—but for the strings they have a bunch of other articulations. The TO patches are the ones that give you the fingered tremolo up to a fifth for each section of strings and the woodwind ensemble. I also very much like the trill sweeps, the sul pont trem and trills, and the harmonic trem. Some of these articulations appear in various forms in Time Macro, but they are sectioned out in Sphere in the usual way: violins, violas, cellos, basses (though only one section of violins).


----------



## sostenuto

jbuhler said:


> For me, I would say Arks 3 & 4 are not so important. ************
> I like Sphere and the current NI price is excellent, but it's more an auxiliary library for doing some things like fingered tremolo that other libraries don't generally have.



Thank-you for continuing with tedious Ark 3 /4 discussion 
Sphere is being considered in context; as Aux Lib.

A 'certain' Wishlist promo has potential to provide pleasing solutions … OR …. be placed on list of those: _'Whose name shall not be spoken'_ …. 

aLASS !! .. there are alternatives as well.


----------



## whiskers

jbuhler said:


> Sphere has a fully sampled harp—it's not my favorite harp but it gets the job done and it has some nice stuff in it—so it's quite different from the one in Time Macro, where it is doubled with vibe (a combination that is quite marvelous and very different and more successful, I think, from the kind of combinations OT is trying to do in Ark 4). The string and woodwind articulations in Sphere are pretty normal—longs, shorts, etc., but no legato—but for the strings they have a bunch of other articulations. The TO patches are the ones that give you the fingered tremolo up to a fifth for each section of strings and the woodwind ensemble. I also very much like the trill sweeps, the sul pont trem and trills, and the harmonic trem. Some of these articulations appear in various forms in Time Macro, but they are sectioned out in Sphere in the usual way: violins, violas, cellos, basses (though only one section of violins).


Thanks for the thoughts. Decisions, decisions.


----------



## Parsifal666

jbuhler said:


> I don't do that much epic stuff either—at least not by the current meaning of the term—but I love the sound world of Austrian-German music 1900-1930, and the Arks are an excellent base for that.



Sure, you could go for a Mahler thing with the Arks, certainly a Strauss. Whenever I heard Alfred Newman's Strauss-ian 20th Century Fox theme I think of Ark 1 now lol! Someone should do a mock up....oh shizz, I guess somebody already did it with GP, yO:


----------



## whiskers

Context demo, courtesy of OT: https://vi-control.net/community/th...t-chapter-ii-online.77520/page-7#post-4325410


----------



## whiskers

After hearing that, I'll probably be passing. Not really my cup of tea.


----------



## ism

jbuhler said:


> The overblown articulations sound very nice, as do the choral shouts, and my initial impression is that the strings will turn out to be the most useful of the Ark strings. If I end up getting it, it will almost certainly be for those things....
> 
> I don't do that much epic stuff either—at least not by the current meaning of the term—but I love the sound world of Austrian-German music 1900-1930, and the Arks are an excellent base for that.
> 
> If you don't already have it, you might also look at Sphere, which has all kinds of nice fingered tremolos through the trill orchestrator, and the sound has always struck me as more of the French impressionist line refracted through Disney's orchestration practice than either the Berlin or especially the Ark series.




Thanks, that's quite a helpful way to think of, I'd never quite though of it in this term before. 

Except for a vague and wholly imprecise sense that where VSL is constantly striving for better Mozart Mock ups, OT is constantly striving for better ... I was thinking maybe Strauss .. or Wagner (at last in the Arks Mock ups), or something late romantic at last. 

But maybe it's their sense of striving for better Mahler and Debussy mock ups that, while surely only a fragment of what OT is striving for, are part of the OT sound that I'm really drawn to.


----------



## ism

whiskers said:


> Context demo, courtesy of OT: https://vi-control.net/community/th...t-chapter-ii-online.77520/page-7#post-4325410




Hmm, this is very impressive. But its striking how, having listened to the walk throughs this is almost a polar opposite to the possible musical worlds that I’d been imaging from hearing the individual sounds.

It makes me even more curious to play with this library someday.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

jbuhler said:


> The TO patches are the ones that give you the fingered tremolo up to a fifth for each section of strings and the woodwind ensemble.


Moved this post here.


----------



## SirKen

The new demo sounds good but I think I am going to save my money for the other "4" that was teased today.


----------



## jbuhler

ism said:


> Thanks, that's quite a helpful way to think of, I'd never quite though of it in this term before.
> 
> Except for a vague and wholly imprecise sense that where VSL is constantly striving for better Mozart Mock ups, OT is constantly striving for better ... I was thinking maybe Strauss .. or Wagner (at last in the Arks Mock ups), or something late romantic at last.
> 
> But maybe it's their sense of striving for better Mahler and Debussy mock ups that, while surely only a fragment of what OT is striving for, are part of the OT sound that I'm really drawn to.


Carmina Burana, I think. But its utility extends to a lot of those big epic pieces by Austrian and German composers. Mahler more than Strauss I think—occasional bits of early Stravinsky, Debussy, Ravel, but as refracted through composers like Schreker, Hindemith, and Orff. I think passages of Gurrelieder might work (I should try it). I've played along with the opening of Zemlinsky's Lyric Symphony, and the tone is really on for that. 

This, of course, is the musical language that many of the first composers of Hollywood were brought up in, refracted through time spent working in picture palaces and musical theater and reimagined for the recording technology (and smallish orchestras) of the 1930s.


----------



## Leo

2.DEMO is strange, but sounds from walktrough seems too me more (in instrumentation and chamber size) like famous Shostakovich 9. symphony.


----------



## Sunny Fable

Should I go with Ark 4 or with 8Dio Lacrimosa Epic choir at 98$ with Cage Brass for free?


----------



## galactic orange

The strings remind me a lot of LCO, but with more usable articulations and legato. This library really has me stumped because it sounds great, but I don't need it. I was skeptical of the combo patches, but after listening to both walkthroughs I found that these could be usable with many other libraries, including the various ARKs. Some of these combos could be accomplished with individual instruments and more flexibility, but there are some unique articulations in there. And the small sections differentiate from the other ARKs enough.

However, I'd like to hear more examples of the different mic positions. And the longs were played with the expression slider all the way up so we didn't get a clear listen to a lot of the more quiet dynamics. Maybe I missed that.

If this is a taste of a chamber orchestra to come, I really hope that it's true. But I don't know how that would work out since part of the strings would already be covered by this library. Do I sense a "Studio" series on the horizon? Think about it. BHCT released last year and then OT follows this year with ARK 4. This year has seen many studio focused libraries so next year could bring a completely different direction from OT. If they stick to Teldex, then I'd like to see a full small-sized ensemble orchestra at least. To get back to the topic, I don't know what I would use ARK 4 for (other than the strings, which I'm chomping at the bit to play) and I'm not a fan of instruments playing in octaves all the time, but if it's not overdone these sounds could be a way to add some color quickly and easily.


----------



## jbuhler

galactic orange said:


> The strings remind me a lot of LCO, but with more usable articulations and legato. This library really has me stumped because it sounds great, but I don't need it. I was skeptical of the combo patches, but after listening to both walkthroughs I found that these could be usable with many other libraries, including the various ARKs. Some of these combos could be accomplished with individual instruments and more flexibility, but there are some unique articulations in there. And the small sections differentiate from the other ARKs enough.
> 
> However, I'd like to hear more examples of the different mic positions. And the longs were played with the expression slider all the way up so we didn't get a clear listen to a lot of the more quiet dynamics. Maybe I missed that.
> 
> If this is a taste of a chamber orchestra to come, I really hope that it's true. But I don't know how that would work out since part of the strings would already be covered by this library. Do I sense a "Studio" series on the horizon? Think about it. BHCT released last year and then OT follows this year with ARK 4. This year has seen many studio focused libraries so next year could bring a completely different direction from OT. If they stick to Teldex, then I'd like to see a full small-sized ensemble orchestra at least. To get back to the topic, I don't know what I would use ARK 4 for (other than the strings, which I'm chomping at the bit to play) and I'm not a fan of instruments playing in octaves all the time, but if it's not overdone these sounds could be a way to add some color quickly and easily.


I like the overblown articulations in the woodwinds and the choral shouts as well. I also thought about LCO as a comparison to some of the string articulations in Ark 4. Aside from some nice textural effects, LCO has largely stumped me since I bought it.


----------



## ChazC

At the price point I haven't seen enough to sway me to get this. It sounds great but as has been said, I just can't see where I'd actually use it to get my moneys worth.

Be interesting to see what walkthroughs/demos pop up now it's out in the wild.


----------



## Goldie Zwecker

So....
what's the verdict so far? The intro price sale ends today.


----------



## jbuhler

Goldie Zwecker said:


> So....
> what's the verdict so far? The intro price sale ends today.


I don’t see that people have received download codes yet. Looking forward to hearing folks’ initial impressions and hopefully a number of demos and user walkthroughs.


----------



## Goldie Zwecker

jbuhler said:


> I don’t see that people have received download codes yet. Looking forward to hearing folks’ initial impressions and hopefully a number of demos and user walkthroughs.


Oh, i didn't mean that. I meant based on the official demos. 
Obviously, when users start making their own demos - the intro price will be long gone, and this will cost 200 euros more.


----------



## Wolf68

I have a Problem. I lust for ARK 4...but I am only in Need of the strings and the choir. and after spending 500 bucks for ark1+2 (which are superb) I'm not sure if I want to spend 420 more...
last day to decide.


----------



## jbuhler

Goldie Zwecker said:


> Oh, i didn't mean that. I meant based on the official demos.
> Obviously, when users start making their own demos - the intro price will be long gone, and this will cost 200 euros more.


I meant the library is supposed to be released today. I would expect OT to be sending out codes anytime now. OT usually has an intro price after the release, 50€ higher than the prerelease price. They haven't announced that's what they are doing this time but I wouldn't be surprised to see it.


----------



## jbuhler

Wolf68 said:


> I have a Problem. I lust for ARK 4...but I am only in Need of the strings and the choir. and after spending 500 bucks for ark1+2 (which are superb) I'm not sure if I want to spend 420 more...
> last day to decide.


Not sure how OT will handle things from this point out, but I think the Arks have traditionally been on sale when they offer a new Ark.


----------



## dodecabilly

I bought it, but I will be without internet connection till January 7th... that’s frustrating. I bought Ark 3 and Ark 4, and i am so eager to try them out, but need to wait until fucking Vodafone brings me new router and stuff...


----------



## jbuhler

dodecabilly said:


> I bought it, but I will be without internet connection till January 7th... that’s frustrating. I bought Ark 3 and Ark 4, and i am so eager to try them out, but need to wait until fucking Vodafone brings me new router and stuff...


Ouch. That would be hard to wait!


----------



## Ruffian Price

IT'S HERE ｷﾀ━━━━ヽ(ﾟ∀ﾟ )ﾉ━━━━!!!!


----------



## Thorsten Meyer

Download started, check your email)


----------



## Ruffian Price

...and the intro price is just 50 euros more until the end of January. Honestly it wasn't a bad idea to wait for further impressions. Also a new demo song on the site.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

yepp, dl goes with 80Mbit/s. lets see :D


----------



## jbuhler

Ruffian Price said:


> ...and the intro price is just 50 euros more until the end of January. Honestly it wasn't a bad idea to wait for further impressions. Also a new demo song on the site.


Oddly OT still hasn't put the walkthroughs up on the Ark 4 page.


----------



## zimm83

ChazC said:


> At the price point I haven't seen enough to sway me to get this. It sounds great but as has been said, I just can't see where I'd actually use it to get my moneys worth.


I see great combinaisons with the 3 other arks...


AlexanderSchiborr said:


> yepp, dl goes with 80Mbit/s. lets see :D


I am in for 10 hours of downloading !!!! Ha HA HA.......!!!! But my precious will arrive !!!


----------



## ChrisSiuMusic

Have fun guys!!


----------



## jbuhler

zimm83 said:


> I see great combinaisons with the 3othzr arks


Please do report back on how well it supplements/complements the other 3 Arks. Still deciding...


----------



## zimm83

jbuhler said:


> Please do report back on how well it supplements/complements the other 3 Arks. Still deciding...


Yes tomorrow when the download will be completed...No problems.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> Have fun guys!!


 You too, dude!


----------



## ChrisSiuMusic

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> You too, dude!


I definitely will


----------



## zimm83

Than


ChrisSiuMusic said:


> Have fun guys!!


Thanks. You too !!!!


----------



## Olfirf

zimm83 said:


> Than
> 
> Thanks. You too !!!!


You two, too!


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

60% ..128 Mbit/s.


----------



## ChrisSiuMusic

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> 60% ..128 Mbit/s.


Wow hella fast


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> Wow hella fast



its ludicrous speed..


----------



## Drundfunk

And I heavily wondered why my download of Metropolis Ark 1 is going so slowly and takes up the whole day.... . Still have to download Ark2 after that. Guess all you guys downloading Ark4 are at fault!


----------



## Parsifal666

jbuhler said:


> Please do report back on how well it supplements/complements the other 3 Arks. Still deciding...



I sense an impending surrender 

Hey, I've been there. My buying the Arks earlier this year was something I'd kept resisting and resisting....total relinquishment of wallet.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

But one thing, and maybe I repeat myself (MA 4 is not the 1st OT library I got): Continuata is at least on my system one of the biggest pieces of shit softwares I have ever experienced. Runtime errors all the fucking time, dropouts, software crashes, holy crapload, 4 times allready this piece of shit crashed during the last 90 minutes, 4 f** times... anybody else? This software is an attack to good taste imo. *rant over*..why so many companies work with that continuata crap? I dont get that..


----------



## jbuhler

Parsifal666 said:


> I sense an impending surrender
> 
> Hey, I've been there. My buying the Arks earlier this year was something I'd kept resisting and resisting....total relinquishment of wallet.


At the moment the desire for Ark 4 is competing with my desire for the Whitacre choir and I don’t have the immediate budget for both.


----------



## Drundfunk

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> But one thing, and maybe I repeat myself (MA 4 is not the 1st OT library I got): Continuata is at least on my system one of the biggest pieces of shit softwares I have ever experienced. Runtime errors all the fucking time, dropouts, software crashes, holy crapload, 4 times allready this piece of shit crashed during the last 90 minutes, 4 f** times... anybody else? This software is an attack to good taste imo. *rant over*..why so many companies work with that continuata crap? I dont get that..


I never had any problems with it. Actually today was the first time that I was slightly displeased with the download speed. But I reckon that it has to do with all the people trying to download Ark4 at the same time. Apart from that I only have positive experience with it


----------



## galactic orange

Since the release it has been curiously quiet around here. A good thing?


----------



## ChrisSiuMusic

galactic orange said:


> Since the release it has been curiously quiet around here. A good thing?


I think most of us are quietly praying that it will download within 24 hours.


----------



## fixxer49

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> its ludicrous speed..



not to turn this into a dick-swinging contest, but i downloaded & installed the whole thing in 22 min (+/- 400 Mbps)


----------



## whiskers

fixxer49 said:


> not to turn this into a dick-swinging contest, but i downloaded & installed the whole thing in 22 min (+/- 400 Mbps)


Mr. BDE over here


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

22min ?! That's how long it takes to download the user manual, over here...


----------



## galactic orange

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> I think most of us are quietly praying that it will download within 24 hours.


It's good to get a sense of how long the download takes everyone. My Continuata downloads usually take a couple of hours. I certainly hope that they don't take as long as 24 hours, so good luck! I wonder if there is high demand at this time, not just for the Arks but for other libraries too. Could that put a strain on Continuata bandwidth? I don't know much about these things.


----------



## sostenuto

_continuata_ = uninterrupted /union ! No inference how long this takes !!


----------



## jbuhler

galactic orange said:


> It's good to get a sense of how long the download takes everyone. My Continuata downloads usually take a couple of hours. I certainly hope that they don't take as long as 24 hours, so good luck! I wonder if there is high demand at this time, not just for the Arks but for other libraries too. Could that put a strain on Continuata bandwidth? I don't know much about these things.


Continuata is always gives me slower download speeds than I get elsewhere, but they are usually consistent in speed.


----------



## gpax

jbuhler said:


> Continuata is always gives me slower download speeds than I get elsewhere, but they are usually consistent in speed.


Same here. We upgrade to gigabit fiber a couple of months ago, and all other download options have been great. Continuata never bumps above 33 Mbps for me.


----------



## gpax

While I'm here... I am experiencing the default keyswitches in the Mid Strings Multi patch playing very low note articulations, not just triggering the respective mid string articulations. Yikes. Can anyone else confirm this? I have submitted a ticket to OT.


----------



## Forecheck

Had a smooth download and install... except in the stand-alone 5.8.1 it doesn't look the same as the work though videos and it seems I don't have access to all the patches. I did the batch-resave process pointed to the correct directory and it processed a lot more patches that were initially available without any error, and the window closed itself. 

Rebooted my Win 7 machine but still don't see any more that what I think are a limited set of patches. Loaded a few up and they sound good, with more ambiance than I prefer but I don't see any way to select a close (or any other) mic position. So a start, need to dig into a manual maybe... Best of luck to all having download issues.


----------



## Parsifal666

jbuhler said:


> At the moment the desire for Ark 4 is competing with my desire for the Whitacre choir and I don’t have the immediate budget for both.



Wait for it, folks, he's just about caving...

Actually (not meant to and certainly won't influence you in anyway) I'd think it cool if you bought Ark 4 because I'd like to hear your thoughts on it.

Arrgh, now if you _*do*_ cave I'll feel guilty.


----------



## Bryan

My initial thoughts - Really great sound as expected from OT. Seems to be dryer than the other Arks. I like the strings and choirs which is what I suspected from the walk through, not so sure about the other stuff. The trumpet/muted trumpet patch is a stand out. I think (as others speculated earlier before release) that I could create most of these sounds with what I have for the most part. Time will tell if I think there is enough new stuff to have made the purchase worth it. Great stuff, just not enough new stuff for me. 

Anybody else have a first reaction?


----------



## Sunny Fable

Bryan said:


> My initial thoughts - Really great sound as expected from OT. Seems to be dryer than the other Arks. I like the strings and choirs which is what I suspected from the walk through, not so sure about the other stuff. The trumpet/muted trumpet patch is a stand out. I think (as others speculated earlier before release) that I could create most of these sounds with what I have for the most part. Time will tell if I think there is enough new stuff to have made the purchase worth it. Great stuff, just not enough new stuff for me.
> 
> Anybody else have a first reaction?


Here's probably the upcoming reaction from zimm83:

What a sound!! My precious!!! OT Rules!!!!


----------



## jbuhler

Bryan said:


> My initial thoughts - Really great sound as expected from OT. Seems to be dryer than the other Arks. I like the strings and choirs which is what I suspected from the walk through, not so sure about the other stuff. The trumpet/muted trumpet patch is a stand out. I think (as others speculated earlier before release) that I could create most of these sounds with what I have for the most part. Time will tell if I think there is enough new stuff to have made the purchase worth it. Great stuff, just not enough new stuff for me.
> 
> Anybody else have a first reaction?


How are the overblown articulations and how do they compare to other libraries? Those also caught my ear.


----------



## whiskers

Sunny Fable said:


> Here's probably the upcoming reaction from zimm83:
> 
> What a sound!! My precious!!! OT Rules!!!!


Yep...


----------



## jbuhler

Parsifal666 said:


> Wait for it, folks, he's just about caving...
> 
> Actually (not meant to and certainly won't influence you in anyway) I'd think it cool if you bought Ark 4 because I'd like to hear your thoughts on it.
> 
> Arrgh, now if you _*do*_ cave I'll feel guilty.


I have until Jan. 27 to decide. Certainly won't make the decision to buy until after the new year. But, yeah, I'll most likely cave...


----------



## zimm83

Sunny Fable said:


> Here's probably the upcoming reaction from zimm83:
> 
> What a sound!! My precious!!! OT Rules!!!!


That was for The walkthroughs.....my download crashed during the night.....just restarting....12Mbs ....still 6 hours. to wait.......ahhhhhhhhhh


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau




----------



## HBen

I always like to read reaction input by zimm83, so zealous......


----------



## Ruffian Price

Is there detailed information about the relative mic positions anywhere? The walkthrough videos mentioned some, but there's nothing in the manual. This looks like a good library to experiment with object-based/ambisonic mixing (I'm thinking tree+srnd for the 4.0 bed, AB with additional reverb and predelay for heights, spot mics for direct signals), but at this point there's too much guesswork involved. The Close I/Close II mic difference seems to change between sections (like in BHCT, actually) but I have no idea what exactly does.

(Goddamn that full orchestra marcato patch is fantastic for sketching)


----------



## zimm83

SO.......
Been playing for an hour.....
What can i say.... :
The sound is clear, soft and agressive. I mean very agressive.
The strings.....chamber strings. With the 2 close mics you can get that chamber sound.
The strings power legato is fantastic. Really. Violins, violas ( vibrato!!!) and my favorite : 2cellos and 1 bass ...Ahhhhhh. This sound !!! Ohhhhhh ! Soft ...to ....aggggressssive .
The power legato has a mix of legato and portamento that makes things living ..
The choir : women.....you can see them in front of you...i mean, like the other sections, the sound is detailed. You hear there are 3 women. Not 10 or 20... They go from intimate to powerful...
The men : Operatic! That's it.
Love the shouts..add percussions and you go barbarian !
The horn mixes and trumpet mixes have the best legatos of the ark series. You can play those horn lines with upfront legatos.
The percussions :
Love the tuned toms and timpani. This is a great sound addition to the many percs of MA3 and the sound is unique and powerful.
The marimba xylo and piano mix has The sound. Unique. Rich. Clear.
Now, for the woodwinds mixes, it is what was missing in the other arks : high end winds. The high range of the winds.
Love the mixes, it creates unique sounds...you can tweak with the different mics and make some tunes more prominent than others.....
The articulations have many upbeats as it was in MA3,but more detailed by sections.
The martele and overpressure are so so for my taste.....
The trill orchestrator is new to me : you can trill from HT WT to 5th....And there are ....10 sections of it....and you can play more than 2 notes.....Interesting...
And there are great multis as it was the case in MA3.
All in all it is a great addition to three ARK series.
The Chamber strings, the brass / winds mixes, the high range of the winds was missing.
I think that with the 4 arks, we have the complete Orchestra that ranges from soft, clear, chamber size to powerful, epic ,action, power.
Happy to have the four arks. Thanks to Orchestral Tools. 
With this series , OT rules !!!


----------



## zimm83

Ruffian Price said:


> Is there detailed information about the relative mic positions anywhere? The walkthrough videos mentioned some, but there's nothing in the manual. This looks like a good library to experiment with object-based/ambisonic mixing (I'm thinking tree+srnd for the 4.0 bed, AB with additional reverb and predelay for heights, spot mics for direct signals), but at this point there's too much guesswork involved. The Close I/Close II mic difference seems to change between sections (like in BHCT, actually) but I have no idea what exactly does.
> 
> (Goddamn that full orchestra marcato patch is fantastic for sketching)


Go there :http://www.helpdesk.orchestraltools.com/index.html


----------



## zimm83

zimm83 said:


> Go there :http://www.helpdesk.orchestraltools.com/index.html


Or there :
http://www.orchestraltools.com/capsule/index.html


----------



## jbuhler

zimm83 said:


> SO.......
> Been playing for an hour.....
> What can i say.... :
> The sound is clear, soft and agressive. I mean very agressive.
> The strings.....chamber strings. With the 2 close mics you can get that chamber sound.
> The strings power legato is fantastic. Really. Violins, violas ( vibrato!!!) and my favorite : 2cellos and 1 bass ...Ahhhhhh. This sound !!! Ohhhhhh ! Soft ...to ....aggggressssive .
> The power legato has a mix of legato and portamento that makes things living ..
> The choir : women.....you can see them in front of you...i mean, like the other sections, the sound is detailed. You hear there are 3 women. Not 10 or 20... They go from intimate to powerful...
> The men : Operatic! That's it.
> Love the shouts..add percussions and you go barbarian !
> The horn mixes and trumpet mixes have the best legatos of the ark series. You can play those horn lines with upfront legatos.
> The percussions :
> Love the tuned toms and timpani. This is a great sound addition to the many percs of MA3 and the sound is unique and powerful.
> The marimba xylo and piano mix has The sound. Unique. Rich. Clear.
> Now, for the woodwinds mixes, it is what was missing in the other arks : high end winds. The high range of the winds.
> Love the mixes, it creates unique sounds...you can tweak with the different mics and make some tunes more prominent than others.....
> The articulations have many upbeats as it was in MA3,but more detailed by sections.
> The martele and overpressure are so so for my taste.....
> The trill orchestrator is new to me : you can trill from HT WT to 5th....And there are ....10 sections of it....and you can play more than 2 notes.....Interesting...
> And there are great multis as it was the case in MA3.
> All in all it is a great addition to three ARK series.
> The Chamber strings, the brass / winds mixes, the high range of the winds was missing.
> I think that with the 4 arks, we have the complete Orchestra that ranges from soft, clear, chamber size to powerful, epic ,action, power.
> Happy to have the four arks. Thanks to Orchestral Tools.
> With this series , OT rules !!!


Good to know! Keep filling us in as you compose with it. I'm especially interested to hear how working with the peculiar woodwind combinations is in context. Clearly from the demos you can get them to sound good. It's just not clear to me if you get there by feeling like you are fighting the library and doing what it wants to do.


----------



## Ruffian Price

zimm83 said:


> Go there :http://www.helpdesk.orchestraltools.com/index.html


Oh snap! I always ignored that link, assuming it's just contact information - this is a fantastic resource!

e: the Mixer View page doesn't seem to be updated for Ark 4 though - the instrument-specific perspectives are only mentioned once:


> You have free choice between a number of microphone positions, which have been chosen individually for best mixing and blending. All patches have Tree, Surround and AB, with Close I, Close II, Close III and Close AB on select patches.


There's quite a lot more info about older OT libraries though, so I assume this will be updated in time.


----------



## TRKStudios

As a fan of OT and owner of many of their libraries, I've spent quite a bit of time with it since last evening's release and some thoughts to help others in their decision:

-Strings are definitely the highlight of this library. The staccato's & power legatos will be great to layer with the other Arks to add that much sought after level of detail.
-The lower strings seem to get very bass heavy/muddy in parts but nothing a bit of post EQ won't fix.
-Choir is very useful, although if you own Ark 1 & Ark 2, you aren't really gaining much here. The male "operatic" power legato is very well done, but a bit overpowering when combined in the full patch with the women. On it's own though, it will be useful when that style is needed.
-The legatos of the woodwind & brass sections are nice, but there seems to be many many places in several of the patches where the transitions sound like grace notes :-/ and this happens in between many intervals. The regular legatos as well don't seem as smooth as they do say in Ark 2. The power legatos are nice, but for fast passages they may not be the best choice.
-The other articulations like over pressures and marteles sound good in concept, but I feel they won't find a way into any of my compositions here. If you own the previous three Arks, you won't find much excitement in what's provided articulation wise. A few "oh, that might be cool if I ever have to write something like that" moments, but that's about it.
-The tuned timpani and toms is great and will definitely be heavily used! Same with the Marimba, Xylo and Piano combo... such a great sound!! Not much other percussion standouts here that you don't have in the other Arks.

Overall, as an owner of all the other Arks, this one is a bit underwhelming I must say. The strings as others have stated are definitely the standout here, but for the price, just have to ask yourself if that level of detail layering is worth it. I really hope OT decides to go back through this one and address the several bugs with the transitions of notes in the legatos (not to mention the entire low end shorts missing from the brass multi) and release a fix. Don't know if they rushed this one compared to the other Arks, but just doesn't feel the same. Some standouts in this library, but a bit over shadowed by other things that are tough to ignore. 

Hope this all helps!


----------



## Parsifal666

TRKStudios said:


> Overall, as an owner of all the other Arks, this one is a bit underwhelming I must say. The strings as others have stated are definitely the standout here, but for the price, just have to ask yourself if that level of detail layering is worth it. I really hope OT decides to go back through this one and address the several bugs with the transitions of notes in the legatos (not to mention the entire low end shorts missing from the brass multi) and release a fix. Don't know if they rushed this one compared to the other Arks, but just doesn't feel the same. Some standouts in this library, but a bit over shadowed by other things that are tough to ignore.
> 
> Hope this all helps!



It does. I think I mentioned, I happen to very much like the strings in Ark 2, and have a ton of string libraries besides (not least of which the EWH, which has plenty of great and useful articulations...don't let the price tag fool you, people). I'm good this time.


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## Zoot_Rollo

TRKStudios said:


> Overall, as an owner of all the other Arks, this one is a bit underwhelming I must say. The strings as others have stated are definitely the standout here, but for the price, just have to ask yourself if that level of detail layering is worth it. I really hope OT decides to go back through this one and address the several bugs with the transitions of notes in the legatos (not to mention the entire low end shorts missing from the brass multi) and release a fix. Don't know if they rushed this one compared to the other Arks, but just doesn't feel the same. Some standouts in this library, but a bit over shadowed by other things that are tough to ignore.
> 
> Hope this all helps!



at first pass, i'll agree with this.

committed, though, i will find use - still high quality sound, with its imperfections.


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## zimm83

I think that the power legato grace notes are certainly intentional. It is how it must sound. It is an exagerated legato and i love it!!!!
Some may not like.it....some will like it. ..Very special articulations...but love them.


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## Wolf68

pleeeease upload user Demos. I'd love to hear the strings.


----------



## jbuhler

Wolf68 said:


> pleeeease upload user Demos. I'd love to hear the strings.


Agree. User demos would be most welcome!


----------



## Satorious

Thank @TRKStudios - this confirms some of my suspicions after watching the walkthroughs. Feeling relieved - was struggling to justify cost vs usage and it sounds like this was the right decision (for me)


----------



## dodecabilly

I've just installed it, and my first impression is very positive. But, this is my first OT library, majority of my orchestral stuff is from Spitfire, and I was not used to this HUUUGE sound, nor I could compare it to other OT libraries. I am very happy with mic positions, close mic is actually useful on it's own. There are patches that I cannot imagine using much (like the operatic male voices) but overall sound is really impressive... Even my wife was "Whoa, what was that? Sounds like Star Wars!" Only complaint so far - I wish it had more round robins for short articulations... Hopefully I will have some time to make a demo. To conclude - I am quite happy with my first OT purchase.


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## AlexanderSchiborr

The legatos who produces some swingy extra notes here and there is (I guess done on purpose) because imo it is more musical. The very strong and fast dialing in vibrato is exactly what I love for my writing but I can understand that some people who use strings are pads won´t dig it that much. However from my first impression and what I used today, some specials in there.


1. Flute / Piccolo Power legato (yikes the name is hilarous) but the sound and musicality and expression you get is really something I dont´hear in any other libraries I have. Though this is a rough take I already love that sound, short snippet and excerpt on a production track:



2. The high power legato strings (lol...captain power..and the violins of the future) and tuba / Trombone / CB combination ( I think that was it?) is pretty descent and a ballkicker and can be used in contexts like that as well:



However, as I am busy I will explore MA4 while workin on my commercial projects and let you know more..


----------



## jbuhler

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Flute / Piccolo Power legato (yikes the name is hilarous) but the sound and musicality and expression you get is really something I dont´hear in any other libraries I have. Though this is a rough take I already love that sound, short snippet and excerpt on a production track


Thanks for the examples. They are most welcome! The flute/piccs sounded pretty restrained there. They sound good for the passage, I just mean that I was expecting something a bit rougher and forced for POWER LEGATO. In fact, the woodwinds in the second example accompanying the illustration of the big low end struck me as more interesting.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

jbuhler said:


> Thanks for the examples. They are most welcome! The flute/piccs sounded pretty restrained there. They sound good for the passage, I just mean that I was expecting something a bit rougher and forced for POWER LEGATO. In fact, the woodwinds in the second example accompanying the illustration of the big low end struck me as more interesting.



Yeah, well, I mixed them a bit restrained also..they have no soloing stage position with my mixing approach here in fact, they could have mixed a bit more with some more close miced approach, I think here I used the AB, Tree and Surround more like. But yeah..they are not that aggressive, but look..at the other patches..like the overblown shorts and stuff, there you will find the more in your face things..


----------



## whiskers

The more I hear, the more I'm glad I held off. Still sounds great, but going for a very specific feel I don't typically care for


----------



## jbuhler

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Yeah, well, I mixed them a bit restrained also..they have no soloing stage position with my mixing approach here in fact, they could have mixed a bit more with some more close miced approach, I think here I used the AB, Tree and Surround more like. But yeah..they are not that aggressive, but look..at the other patches..like the overblown shorts and stuff, there you will find the more in your face things..


Yes, that makes sense. I mean they sound good on the passage and I recognize that you were shaping the sound for the passage not to show off the POWER LEGATO. (Sorry, that articulation name still cracks me up, and I can't help but capitalize it.) In any case, thanks very much for sharing. It really helps me get a better sense of the potential of the library.


----------



## jbuhler

Well, this thread has been remarkably quiet for a major library that just dropped.


----------



## Mystic

jbuhler said:


> Well, this thread has been remarkably quiet for a major library that just dropped.


You know, I had some big rant typed out in response to this but in the end, it's not worth the argument I'm sure would ensue. Here's the bullet points: The marketing was terrible. Pressure marketing is even worse. The demos gave no reason for most of us to buy this. The lack of information is a huge cause. The fact that most people feel this library isn't really a need for their arsenal combined with the high cost doesn't help.

I'm really disappointed. I was hoping for something special with a new Ark since the past 3 have been real gems. Guess you can't win em all. I'm also irritated at myself for passing up on Afflatus for Ark. Won't happen again.


----------



## jbuhler

Mystic said:


> You know, I had some big rant typed out in response to this but in the end, it's not worth the argument I'm sure would ensue. Here's the bullet points: The marketing was terrible. Pressure marketing is even worse. The demos gave no reason for most of us to buy this. The lack of information is a huge cause. The fact that most people feel this library isn't really a need for their arsenal combined with the high cost doesn't help.
> 
> I'm really disappointed. I was hoping for something special with a new Ark since the past 3 have been real gems. Guess you can't win em all. I'm also irritated at myself for passing up on Afflatus for Ark. Won't happen again.


Well, I'm most sorry to hear this.


----------



## Simon Ravn

I love it. The winds combinations are excellent especially I think. Strings are very cool too.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

like the other Arks, this may grow on me.

i will definitely use it.

and since many didn't bite, i'll have a tonal advantage.


----------



## zimm83

Zoot_Rollo said:


> like the other Arks, this may grow on me.
> 
> i will definitely use it.
> 
> and since many didn't bite, i'll have a tonal advantage.


The more i use it, the more i discover things :
The power legato strings and winds give an excellent ethnic touch ...They are more portamento than legato. Ethnic lines...

And the winds combos can go towards jazzy things.!!! Really.
And once more, the chamber strings sound ......chamber strings.

The low strings, if you go with close 2 mics, you hear more the 2 cellos than the bass. So you can have the cello lines with a little touch of bass. Great.
The woman legato can be very soft if you disable the high velocities. Very effective for magical moments...
Flute picolo lines, great.
The horn lines have a superb accented legato. My go to for epic lines . Better than the a9legato horns of ark1...Surprised....

The crescendo tremolo are great for rapid short ostinatos. Better than the upbeat triplet.
The trills orchestrator is polyphonic and very effective. You can play it with two hands...

Really a great addition for me to the Ark series. And i don't even tell you about blending them together !!!

Have a great Christmas day all of you vst lovers !!!


----------



## jbuhler

zimm83 said:


> The power legato strings and winds give an excellent ethnic touch ...They are more portamento than legato. Ethnic lines..



That’s interesting. 



zimm83 said:


> The low strings, if you go with close 2 mics, you hear more the 2 cellos than the bass. So you can have the cello lines with a little touch of bass. Great.
> The woman legato can be very soft if you disable the high velocities. Very effective for magical moments...
> Flute picolo lines, great.
> The horn lines have a superb accented legato. My go to for epic lines . Better than the a9legato horns of ark1...Surprised....



these are great. Most surprised by your statement about the accented legato being better for epic lines than a9 horn patch. 



zimm83 said:


> And i don't even tell you about blending them together !!!



Do tell us about blending!


----------



## Parsifal666

jbuhler said:


> Well, I'm most sorry to hear this.



My wallet isn't.


----------



## jbuhler

Parsifal666 said:


> My wallet isn't.


Yes, I hear you and my wallet feels a bit more secure as well. I do like libraries to be successes and people to be reasonably satisfied with their purchases.


----------



## Parsifal666

jbuhler said:


> Yes, I hear you and my wallet feels a bit more secure as well. I do like libraries to be successes and people to be reasonably satisfied with their purchases.



I think this might be the poorest reception of_* any*_ OT instrument....in fact, I'm almost positive this is an anomalous reception among the Arks...initial responses to the other Arks were overwhelmingly positive...and quite fast.


----------



## jbuhler

Parsifal666 said:


> I think this might be the poorest reception of_* any*_ OT instrument....in fact, I'm almost positive this is an anomalous reception among the Arks...initial responses to the other Arks were overwhelmingly positive...and quite fast.


That's my sense too. From the general lack of comment, I'm pretty sure the library is at least showing itself to be a bit of an enigma so that folks are needing to figure out what it is and what it adds before commenting. @zimm83 seems to have an angle on it and the second excerpt from @AlexanderSchiborr showed some distinctive potential for the library. So far, though I'm not seeing or hearing anything that makes me think I made the wrong decision to hold off buying.


----------



## Simon Ravn

jbuhler said:


> Well, this thread has been remarkably quiet for a major library that just dropped.



Not really. Most people (including me) probably have other things on their minds than doing demos of this new library right now close to christmas and all. Sorry, but just because I buy a new sample library, my first goal isn't normally to go out and do a demo of it.

Frankly, I see your post more as a way to try to provoke people to do demos, using the device of implying that people are dissatisfied with the product they bought, and therefore don't post demos made with it.

Sorry, that tactic won't work for me, and probably not many others. I know what this library is and what it isn't and it was pretty clear from the demos/screencasts as well. It's a brilliant library by the way. Not something I will use for every piece I do, far from it, but it does certain things very, very well, and adds new possibilities just like the other ARK libraries.


----------



## whiskers

Simon Ravn said:


> Not really. Most people (including me) probably have other things on their minds than doing demos of this new library right now close to christmas and all. Sorry, but just because I buy a new sample library, my first goal isn't normally to go out and do a demo of it.
> 
> Frankly, I see your post more as a way to try to provoke people to do demos, using the device of implying that people are dissatisfied with the product they bought, and therefore don't post demos made with it.
> 
> Sorry, that tactic won't work for me, and probably not many others. I know what this library is and what it isn't and it was pretty clear from the demos/screencasts as well. It's a brilliant library by the way. Not something I will use for every piece I do, far from it, but it does certain things very, very well, and adds new possibilities just like the other ARK libraries.


He was making a simple observation, no need to get defensive .

Glad to hear you enjoy the addition to your collection. Have a great holiday!


----------



## jbuhler

Simon Ravn said:


> Not really. Most people (including me) probably have other things on their minds than doing demos of this new library right now close to christmas and all. Sorry, but just because I buy a new sample library, my first goal isn't normally to go out and do a demo of it.
> 
> Frankly, I see your post more as a way to try to provoke people to do demos, using the device of implying that people are dissatisfied with the product they bought, and therefore don't post demos made with it.
> 
> Sorry, that tactic won't work for me, and probably not many others. I know what this library is and what it isn't and it was pretty clear from the demos/screencasts as well. It's a brilliant library by the way. Not something I will use for every piece I do, far from it, but it does certain things very, very well, and adds new possibilities just like the other ARK libraries.


While I would certainly like to hear demos and comments, no, that is not my motivation. I'm just noting an asymmetry between the amount of posting here compared to Afflatus, CSB, SStB, Glory Days, or Time Macro after those libraries were released. Given the frenzy of comments leading up to the release, the lack of commentary since has been a bit strange.


----------



## whiskers

jbuhler said:


> While I would certainly like to hear demos and comments, no, that is not my motivation. I'm just noting an asymmetry between the amount of posting here compared to Afflatus, CSB, SStB, Glory Days, or Time Macro after those libraries were released. Given the frenzy of comments leading up to the release, the lack of commentary has been a bit strange.


Two factors, likely:

Holiday season has members preoccupied with other things: travel prep, family time, et al.
Have a hunch there's a lot less early adopters for Ark 4 compared to Arks 1-3, Berlin, and Time Macro. So less sample size to hear from.
Cheers.


----------



## jbuhler

whiskers said:


> Two factors, likely:
> 
> Holiday season has members preoccupied with other things: travel prep, family time, et al.
> Have a hunch there's a lot less early adopters for Ark 4 compared to Arks 1-3, Berlin, and Time Macro. So less sample size to hear from.
> Cheers.


That would make sense, though with respect to (1), the conversation on SStB and CSB is still going reasonably strong. The smaller sample size would, however, probably be enough to explain it, especially if the library is indeed a bit of an enigma—sounds great, lots of potential but not entirely sure how to tap it. I know if I was in that position, it would be hard to formulate a cogent comment.


----------



## Parsifal666

Simon Ravn said:


> Not really. Most people (including me) probably have other things on their minds than doing demos of this new library right now close to christmas and all. Sorry, but just because I buy a new sample library, my first goal isn't normally to go out and do a demo of it.
> 
> Frankly, I see your post more as a way to try to provoke people to do demos, using the device of implying that people are dissatisfied with the product they bought, and therefore don't post demos made with it.
> 
> Sorry, that tactic won't work for me, and probably not many others. I know what this library is and what it isn't and it was pretty clear from the demos/screencasts as well. It's a brilliant library by the way. Not something I will use for every piece I do, far from it, but it does certain things very, very well, and adds new possibilities just like the other ARK libraries.



Oh dear.


----------



## TRKStudios

So, just wanted to upload an example here of some different legatos from the library so you all can get a basic sense of what's in store... I mentioned hearing some artifacts in the legatos in my last post but realizing they are definitely not artifacts and just the way the power legatos are recorded.

I've taken the same simple melodic phrase with the same changes in dynamics and copied it to some of the different legato types from the library in their range. You'll hear those slight "grace" notes in the way the power legatos were recorded. This may be great for some and not so great for others.

The examples have no outside processing and are all out of the box. I'm not saying they are unusable or bad in any way, just wanted to give an idea of the difference in sound for those who were wondering. The only one that sticks out to not sounding that great legato wise is the Bass Clarinet, Bass Sax & Cimbassi patch :-/

The examples in the demo in order:

*Flute, Oboe & Clarinet - Regular Legato
Flute, Oboe & Clarinet - Power Legato
Bass Oboe & Basset Horn - Regular Legato
Bass Oboe & Basset Horn - Power Legato
Trumpets - Regular Legato
Trumpets - Power Legato
Horn, Wagner Tube & Trombone - Regular Legato (Library has no Power Legato)
Bass Clarinet, Bass Sax & Cimbassi - Power Legato (Library has no Regular Legato)
High Strings - Regular Legato
High Strings - Power Legato
Mid Strings - Regular Legato
Mid Strings - Power Legato
Low Strings - Regular Legato
Low Strings - Power Legato*

[AUDIOPLUS=https://www.vi-control.net/community/attachments/metark4_legexamples-mp3.17309/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/metark4_legexamples-mp3.17309/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## whiskers

Thanks for that. Power legato is ironically a bit more subtle in those examples than I expected. Definitely noticeable, though.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Yeah, however as nobody is really posting stuff, I did a patch walktrough mainly with the legato and power legato and here and there the martele shorts. However this example is played in all live, no effects, no post programming with all imperfections on my side and brutal honest and unpolished. Its going through all section instrument groups. However I think the library can be useful when you are after very specific sounds and "performance expressions". At the end of the walkthrough is a fanfare done in 15 minutes based on my improvised licks. Dont kill me: This is not mixed, not polished, nothing, just raw. Harp is from Cinesamples, and the piatti is from OTs percussion library.


----------



## turnerofwheels

The brass sounds great, and the two close mics are very useful. I'm still in the exploration phase (My only other OT product is Met Ark 3, and well, it's one of my favorites, so 4 was purchased for the versatility. I can't compare to the first two, however).
I've run into some very minor issues, no show-stoppers. Some velocity layers seem to be switched off by default in some multi patches, and I really wish that the winds had even just one more dynamic layer to make dynamic sustains a touch less crossfadey (the strings have three, the winds only have two).
That being said, I'm happy to have more OT Teldex in my studio and I think this will get used a lot, even if just to add bite to other tracks.


----------



## jbuhler

TRKStudios said:


> So, just wanted to upload an example here of some different legatos from the library so you all can get a basic sense of what's in store... I mentioned hearing some artifacts in the legatos in my last post but realizing they are definitely not artifacts and just the way the power legatos are recorded.



These are very nice illustrations. Thanks so much!


----------



## jbuhler

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Yeah, however as nobody is really posting stuff, I did a patch walktrough mainly with the legato and power legato and here and there the martele shorts. However this example is played in all live, no effects, no post programming with all imperfections on my side and brutal honest and unpolished. Its going through all section instrument groups. However I think the library can be useful when you are after very specific sounds and "performance expressions". At the end of the walkthrough is a fanfare done in 15 minutes based on my improvised licks. Dont kill me: This is not mixed, not polished, nothing, just raw. Harp is from Cinesamples, and the piatti is from OTs percussion library.



Thank you! These are very helpful! Your little fanfare at the end was an especially good illustration. Thanks again!


----------



## CologneScoring

I just had an hour spare time this morning to fiddle around a little bit with Ark 4, the result is the little attached track (Low Pizzicatos borrowed from Ark II, the high ones from CSS).

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/little-walse-mp3.17326/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## rap_ferr

I decided to do a quick test with Metropolis Ark 4. This would be how it sounds in the hands of a less skilled person than the ones who did all the demos for Orchestral Tools.

All except percussion, harp and pizzicatos are from Ark4.

Hope this helps!


----------



## turnerofwheels

OK, here's a demo made from only Metropolis Ark 4, using pretty much all the instruments (with a bunch of keyswitching). This should hopefully give you a good idea in about one minute.


----------



## Alex Niedt

Here's my user demo. Would have never made something like this without restricting myself to this library. Love buying a product that actually teaches you something.


----------



## sostenuto

Massive, creative, stimulating, fine lib utilization ….. very cool !!


----------



## ag75

Alex Niedt said:


> Here's my user demo. Would have never made something like this without restricting myself to this library. Love buying a product that actually teaches you something.



I mean this library sounds so original. It actually sounds like something you would hear on a TV/film cue. Most libraries just have this generic epic feel to them and this library has a much more upfront, realistic sound to it. I absolutely love it. I bought it and downloaded it but wont be able to play around with it until after Christmas. Great composition! It made me not regret buying this! lol


----------



## jbuhler

I'm hearing some most interesting things in these user demos that have recently been posted. It's not that the sounds are completely outside what is possible with other libraries and the other Arks, but I think they come together to form a distinct tone that doesn't exactly derive from the smaller forces of Ark 4—because they generally sound big and not especially intimate—but is related to that in the way it manages to capture something like the struggle with this big sound, or being an individual within it, heroically resisting here, dutifully (or even stoically) contributing there. Still trying to work this out and figure out whether it is a sound I'm interested in incorporating, but I do find it an interesting sound and thanks to everyone for contributing.


----------



## ka00

Alex Niedt said:


> Here's my user demo. Would have never made something like this without restricting myself to this library. Love buying a product that actually teaches you something.




Yep, really liking the sound of this.

If they had kept the preorder price up as an intro price, I would have bought this. As it is, I’ll have to wait for some sort of sale down the road.


----------



## Mystic

ka00 said:


> If they had kept the preorder price up as an intro price, I would have bought this. As it is, I’ll have to wait for some sort of sale down the road.


Probably would have as well. I don't buy into the "just trust us" marketing. Now I'll either wait till it's on sale or just not buy it at all. Their loss. I don't *need* this.


----------



## jbuhler

Alex Niedt said:


> Thank you all for the lovely comments! Also, for those wishing for the intro price, it still seems to be in effect until January 29th.


I think people are referring to the prerelease price.


----------



## muziksculp

The _Pre-Release_ Price was *349.* Euros/$. compared to _Intro-Price_ of *399.* Euros/$


----------



## whiskers

all of you who posted demos are some seriously talented people. I'm envious thanks for sharing!


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

muziksculp said:


> The _Pre-Release_ Price was *349.* Euros/$. compared to _Intro-Price_ of *399.* Euros/$


Yes, Orchestral Tools would _really_ rather that we buy their products without the benefit of reviews or hearing feedback from VI Control members. It's really pretty off-putting.


----------



## jbuhler

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Yes, Orchestral Tools would _really_ rather that we buy their products without the benefit of reviews or hearing feedback from pesky VI Control members. It's really pretty off-putting.


It's a bonus for being an early adapter, which I think is fine. But for those who had Arks 1-3, the early adapter price point is €50 higher than it has been in the past. For me, that's more problematic, because for a good portion of those who might have been early adapters it was in essence a fairly large price increase, especially in a market where the general price of VIs has been declining and for a library that doesn't fit neatly within the concept that has defined the Arks. It's just a bit of a weird pricing decision. But it is what it is.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

great demos!!!

anxious to start using it on some projects after the new year.


----------



## ka00

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Yes, Orchestral Tools would _really_ rather that we buy their products without the benefit of reviews or hearing feedback from pesky VI Control members. It's really pretty off-putting.



It _is_ very bizarre. There would seem to be no need for it. While their products are usually solid enough that you can take a leap of faith for an extra discount, it unnecessarily puts the onus on their marketing, demos and walkthtroughs to be as effective and extensive as possible. And if any of those things fall short during the pre-release period, it drives away people who would have otherwise purchased at a great price.

If the intro price was the same as pre-release, I literally would have purchased this library immediately after hearing @Alex Niedt ‘s demo.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

the pre-order price is for loyalty really. 

It's really odd for people to have this weird value perception issue - simply because they did a few sales, but that's why they don't do sales... because people suddenly think "it's not worth it" because it was 50$ cheaper to someone else... 

People who bought OT libraries generally felt they were worth it at the price point they were at... and likewise, despite this seeming like somewhat of an enigma - those of us who are willing to pay OT prices don't see an issue. Everyone's line is different I suppose - and for me, there were only a few instruments I really wanted in ark 2, and the sale made the scale tip. I'm not saying that the 50$ can't tip the scales for you, but if your scales tip at 50$ you're probably not the demographic OT is after. There are plenty of developers that make less expensive libraries, and if you're that unsure about Ark 4 - you should just save your money and grab other libraries from other developers. 

Like I said, this perspective issue is just silly... those of us who have many OT releases got the library for 50$ cheaper, if you think that giving repeat/loyal customers a discount is a problem - how do you think other people will feel when the intro offer is over and it's 549 euros in febuary?

Ark 4 is a unique flavor, having poked around a bit(still very busy until January personally) and if it's a sound you want, you'll be hard pressed to get it from other libraries. It's from OT, so you know the product will work - its not like they built a new engine that nobody has used... it's capsule, which their entire line(as far as I'm aware) is currently in, and working. Even older stuff like OSR and Orchestral Grands are in some iteration of capsule now. Not sure there's much more information you could possibly need to make an informed decision prior to the pre-order date... there were walkthroughs, demos before the date ended... pdf with articulations were up for a good long while - and it wasn't enough to bite, so why is anyone bothered?

if 50 euros is suddenly a problem, then you weren't interested enough in the library 50 euros ago. 

It's moment's like these, that I'm glad I don't sell software. Some bothered there was no loyalty discount, some bothered that actual loyal people got a discount. Some bothered that there was sales at all, which honestly is probably the root of everyone complaining's issue. If there wasn't the last few big sales with OT, not a soul would care about the pre-order price... Heck, less than a year ago - people were paying full price for their libraries, and nobody felt compelled to make a post after paying over 200 euros more than the pre-order prices.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

jbuhler said:


> It's a bonus for being an early adopter


I get why a consumer might see value in waiting for reviews and user opinions.

I _don't_ get why Orchestral Tools sees value--€50 to be exact--in getting customers to buy before they can see reviews and opinions.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

ka00 said:


> It _is_ very bizarre. There would seem to be no need for it. While their products are usually solid enough that you can take a leap of faith for an extra discount, it unnecessarily puts the onus on their marketing, demos and walkthtroughs to be as effective and extensive as possible. And if any of those things fall short during the pre-release period, it drives away people who would have otherwise purchased at a great price.
> 
> If the intro price was the same as pre-release, I literally would have purchased this library immediately after hearing @Alex Niedt ‘s demo.



honestly, not to sound rude - but this mindset is absolutely inconceivable to me. 
Either there is absolutely NO REASON AT ALL to pre-order, or you would rather pre-order not exist at all?

or would you like a useless pre-order to waste the developers time? Pre-orders are nothing new at all, it's not like your money disappears the day before pre-order ends... either you have the money for preorder or don't... So wanting to pay pre-order price after other people have bought and played with the library is just wanting something for nothing. You want other people to risk their $$ to scout it out for you, and then you get the same deal as them?

Maybe I'm missing something - but everytime someone makes this argument, I can't help but feel like there is something I'm missing here - or the person has never pre-ordered anything in their life and doesn't understand why companies use pre-order. 


One simple example(ark 4 is an excellent one) they could use pre-orders to gauge consumer interest, and decide how long an intro period needs to be to recoup their investments. It's also useful because the company has likely invested an extremely large amount of capital creating a product and could use the extra cash flow for advertising. Or in the unfortunate event that the library bombed, they could start assessing reasons why - and potentially change their production schedule if they had similar products planned. 

Plenty of useful reasons... and pre-ordering at an even lower price is the consumer's reward.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Land of Missing Parts said:


> I get why a consumer might see value in waiting for reviews and user opinions.



value, like 50 euros? If I was unsure of a library - 50 euros is much better than wasting 349 euros on something I don't want. I specifically didn't buy ark 3 on preorder, but did purchase it during the intro for this reason. Was worth 50 euros to me just to wait and see. 

[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.8)]


Land of Missing Parts said:


> I _don't_ get why Orchestral Tools sees value--€50 to be exact--in getting customers to buy before they can see reviews and opinions.


[/COLOR]​
You don't see why orchestral tools values their most loyal and trusting users? You don't see why orchestral tools values cash flow after a steep investment into a library?


----------



## sostenuto

For me, having Ark4 Intro … squarely on top of NI _ Promo was really clumsy. Lots of dinero involved, and having Ark1 to build on, affected some choices. Maybe some would have been upset at having Ark 4 Intro a bit later (like now), but seems it would have been a preferred plan.


----------



## jbuhler

ProfoundSilence said:


> the pre-order price is for loyalty really.
> 
> It's really odd for people to have this weird value perception issue - simply because they did a few sales, but that's why they don't do sales... because people suddenly think "it's not worth it" because it was 50$ cheaper to someone else...
> 
> People who bought OT libraries generally felt they were worth it at the price point they were at... and likewise, despite this seeming like somewhat of an enigma - those of us who are willing to pay OT prices don't see an issue. Everyone's line is different I suppose - and for me, there were only a few instruments I really wanted in ark 2, and the sale made the scale tip. I'm not saying that the 50$ can't tip the scales for you, but if your scales tip at 50$ you're probably not the demographic OT is after. There are plenty of developers that make less expensive libraries, and if you're that unsure about Ark 4 - you should just save your money and grab other libraries from other developers.
> 
> Like I said, this perspective issue is just silly... those of us who have many OT releases got the library for 50$ cheaper, if you think that giving repeat/loyal customers a discount is a problem - how do you think other people will feel when the intro offer is over and it's 549 euros in febuary?
> 
> Ark 4 is a unique flavor, having poked around a bit(still very busy until January personally) and if it's a sound you want, you'll be hard pressed to get it from other libraries. It's from OT, so you know the product will work - its not like they built a new engine that nobody has used... it's capsule, which their entire line(as far as I'm aware) is currently in, and working. Even older stuff like OSR and Orchestral Grands are in some iteration of capsule now. Not sure there's much more information you could possibly need to make an informed decision prior to the pre-order date... there were walkthroughs, demos before the date ended... pdf with articulations were up for a good long while - and it wasn't enough to bite, so why is anyone bothered?
> 
> if 50 euros is suddenly a problem, then you weren't interested enough in the library 50 euros ago.
> 
> It's moment's like these, that I'm glad I don't sell software. Some bothered there was no loyalty discount, some bothered that actual loyal people got a discount. Some bothered that there was sales at all, which honestly is probably the root of everyone complaining's issue. If there wasn't the last few big sales with OT, not a soul would care about the pre-order price... Heck, less than a year ago - people were paying full price for their libraries, and nobody felt compelled to make a post after paying over 200 euros more than the pre-order prices.


You may be right, but OT is raising intro prices in a declining market for a product that I would argue has less marginal value due to the other Ark products in that market, which they themselves flooded with that NI deal. Ark 3 was offered at 299 to existing customers, Ark 4 is offered at 349 for all customers, which is a significant price increase for existing customers. They may have bet they could get more folks to buy Ark 4 at the intro price who had bought other Arks during the NI sale than they would not get from those who already owned previous Arks and wouldn't purchase at the higher intro price. For all I know, maybe that calculus was correct, but I would love to see their sales figures, which I would bet is considerably below the other Arks (though that might have as much to do with all the crazy sales that happened after BF this year as with their pricing structure and the library's less articulate concept than the other Arks). Of course, OT has the right to do anything they want. Nobody is disputing that. And I certainly am not mad at OT for not offering the same price structure they had for the previous Ark introductions. I just find it odd (and OT does a lot of things I consider odd from a business perspective). But it is what it is, and it is their business, so I go back to evaluating whether the €399 they want for it now is better spent somewhere else.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Out of curiosity, can you think of other sample library devs who have a pre-release price the way OT does it? I can't think of any off the top of my head. The norm is to have an intro price period, then a regular price.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

i got Ark 3 at the intro price.

paid full price for Ark 1.

bought Ark 2 during the recent deal.

and grabbed Ark 4 at the pre-release price.

i could have done better.

but i didn't.

happy to have them.


----------



## NYC Composer

“Loyalty”? Seriously? 

These are transactions, perhaps with companies you admire, but....”loyalty”?? 

Marketing and market research. The desire of people to form subgroups, often encouraged by marketing. Price points. Filling needs or creating a buzz. 
These are market determinants. When I hear the word “loyalty” or the words “take my money”, I wonder what friggin’ planet I live on.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Out of curiosity, can you think of other sample library devs who have a pre-release price the way OT does it? I can't think of any off the top of my head. The norm is to have an intro price period, then a regular price.


can't remember completely, but wasn't HZ strings a pre-order event?

regardless, there are tons of software companies who do this all the time... it's extremely common with games - and arguably no different than early access pricing. Games that you can't play or watch a walkthrough of, because unlike sample libraries - they are under NDA much of the time.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

ProfoundSilence said:


> can't remember completely, but wasn't HZ strings a pre-order event?
> 
> regardless, there are tons of software companies who do this all the time... it's extremely common with games - and arguably no different than early access pricing. Games that you can't play or watch a walkthrough of, because unlike sample libraries - they are under NDA much of the time.




i share some of these comments with the sales and marketing group at my current employer.

they think it's adorable.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

NYC Composer said:


> “Loyalty”? Seriously?
> 
> These are transactions, perhaps with companies you admire, but....”loyalty”??
> 
> Marketing and market research. The desire of people to form subgroups, often encouraged by marketing. Price points. Filling needs or creating a buzz.
> These are market determinants. When I hear the word “loyalty” or the words “take my money”, I wonder what friggin’ planet I live on.


This kind of loyalty is less about exclusivity - and more about investment into the OT ecosystem. Some fans of a companies products are given the opportunity to blindly invest in what they assume they will like, and are rewarded for it. 


At this point, sounds like they should take pre-order away entirely, or people will kick and scream.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Zoot_Rollo said:


> i share some of these comments with the sales and marketing group at my current employer.
> 
> they think it's adorable.


Just imagine the people who paid a premium and showed up to the announcement for HZ strings live - not having any idea WHAT they were getting, let alone if they liked what they were getting. 

and HZ strings/the ticket to that event was a lot more expensive than the ark 4 pre-order. That said, I'm still having trouble grasping how people would want the pre-order option rendered 100% worthless. Would they seriously rather the pre-order come as special edition with more articulations or something instead??? something completely unobtainable after the fact?

or just remove pre-order because "IF I DONT WANT IT, NO ONE ELSE CAN HAVE IT" lol


----------



## Mystic

ProfoundSilence said:


> the pre-order price is for loyalty really.
> 
> It's really odd for people to have this weird value perception issue - simply because they did a few sales, but that's why they don't do sales... because people suddenly think "it's not worth it" because it was 50$ cheaper to someone else...
> 
> People who bought OT libraries generally felt they were worth it at the price point they were at... and likewise, despite this seeming like somewhat of an enigma - those of us who are willing to pay OT prices don't see an issue. Everyone's line is different I suppose - and for me, there were only a few instruments I really wanted in ark 2, and the sale made the scale tip. I'm not saying that the 50$ can't tip the scales for you, but if your scales tip at 50$ you're probably not the demographic OT is after. There are plenty of developers that make less expensive libraries, and if you're that unsure about Ark 4 - you should just save your money and grab other libraries from other developers.
> 
> Like I said, this perspective issue is just silly... those of us who have many OT releases got the library for 50$ cheaper, if you think that giving repeat/loyal customers a discount is a problem - how do you think other people will feel when the intro offer is over and it's 549 euros in febuary?
> 
> Ark 4 is a unique flavor, having poked around a bit(still very busy until January personally) and if it's a sound you want, you'll be hard pressed to get it from other libraries. It's from OT, so you know the product will work - its not like they built a new engine that nobody has used... it's capsule, which their entire line(as far as I'm aware) is currently in, and working. Even older stuff like OSR and Orchestral Grands are in some iteration of capsule now. Not sure there's much more information you could possibly need to make an informed decision prior to the pre-order date... there were walkthroughs, demos before the date ended... pdf with articulations were up for a good long while - and it wasn't enough to bite, so why is anyone bothered?
> 
> if 50 euros is suddenly a problem, then you weren't interested enough in the library 50 euros ago.
> 
> It's moment's like these, that I'm glad I don't sell software. Some bothered there was no loyalty discount, some bothered that actual loyal people got a discount. Some bothered that there was sales at all, which honestly is probably the root of everyone complaining's issue. If there wasn't the last few big sales with OT, not a soul would care about the pre-order price... Heck, less than a year ago - people were paying full price for their libraries, and nobody felt compelled to make a post after paying over 200 euros more than the pre-order prices.



No offense, but this is such a pile of crap argument to make not to mention mildly insulting because some people aren't as willing to throw money into the wind as others.

I have no problem with loyalty discounts _if we know what we are buying ahead of time_. OT waited until the absolute last minute to even bother posting their walkthroughs, which were okay at best seeing as they skimmed over quite a bit and simply forwent many other things. There were very few demos of the product out by the time the loyalty period was over as well. Both of these things were painfully obviously done on purpose to pressure people into buying because there is simply not a single good excuse as to why they couldn't have prepared it ahead of time. 

Almost every other company does the same things when it comes to putting out a product for pre-release: Announce it, bring out demos and a walkthrough. This usually happens at worst within a day or two of each other and certainly BEFORE the product even goes on sale. The lack of this shows willing disregard for their customers. OT isn't new to the game. They know exactly how to prepare a new product. They also have plenty of time to do it and to prep a set of demos to release along side it so either they are doing it on purpose or they've become completely incompetent. Pick one because those are the only two viable options. The only other company that does this is EastWest and they fall into both categories in my books but at least they leave the introductory price up with enough time for reviewers to get their hands on the product and give people the rundown.

I am OT's demographic. I own most of their products. I'm not paying 400 euros for this because I'm simply pissed off at the way they are treating their customers. Maybe some of you are fine with tossing a handful of money at a company and hoping you get something good from it; most of us are not. To say that we are not their target demographic because we're mad at the price jump for being more careful than some just shows yourself to be more foolish with finances than we are. I judge each purchase by how useful I think it will be as should everyone. People who buy into blind loyalty eventually get screwed.


----------



## NYC Composer

ProfoundSilence said:


> This kind of loyalty is less about exclusivity - and more about investment into the OT ecosystem.


Investment in their “ecosystem”. Ohhhh-kay. Why not “the Orchestral Tools family”?

I respect developers and wish them well, but this sort of stuff is a marketer’s dream.

I think I’m gonna leave this to the cultists, because otherwise I think my head might explode. It could get gnarly.


----------



## prodigalson

Mystic said:


> Maybe some of you are fine with tossing a handful of money at a company and hoping you get something good from it; most of us are not.



It’s not the case that there was absolutely zero information about the product out there before the preorder ended. It may not have been enough for you but it’s possible that others may have seen enough from demos and walkthrus to feel that 349e is likely worth it but 549e is maybe not. And user demos seem promising so far


----------



## Parsifal666

SHANE TURNER said:


> OK, here's a demo made from only Metropolis Ark 4, using pretty much all the instruments (with a bunch of keyswitching). This should hopefully give you a good idea in about one minute.




I like the video, but does the brass sound pretty fake at times here or is it just me?

I feel like I'm being very picky, so apologies...at least I didn't bring up legato lol!


----------



## ProfoundSilence

prodigalson said:


> It’s not the case that there was absolutely zero information about the product out there before the preorder ended. It may not have been enough for you but it’s possible that others may have seen enough from demos and walkthrus to feel that 349e is likely worth it but 549e is maybe not. And user demos seem promising so far




This is the part that is strange to me... pre-orders 2 weeks before release and 2 hours before release are the same price... I waited until the last day to pre-order(although I had made my mind up before hand) There is no rush or obligation to order any faster, so I waited until the most information was out - not just walkthroughs, but more demos - showcasing it was the exact flavor I expected the library to deliver, and it was one that I liked. 

Personally - I literally open the OT website and left the single demo play nightly as I was getting ready for bed. I'd already digested the individual elements from the demo quite a bit by the time walkthroughs and the new demos hit. All of that was available prior to the pre-release ending. Like I said, it's not like 400$ was going to disappear 2 days before the release... so if I had the money a week in advance - i'd still have it up to release. 


As far as people feeling insulted... quite frankly - I don't care. If you are bothered by the fact that someone else with the same information was informed enough to make a decision that you weren't sure of - then there's not much anyone can do for you. If your self worth is tied around being able to chuck 349 euros at a library or not - then forum users aren't responsible for that. I can't afford the new tesla roadster, but I don't feel like less of a person that other people pre-ordered the car before they could drive it/official specs/ratings/ect were out. Nobody is insulting people for not pre-ordering, if anything, I am criticizing the fact that some users have 0 idea what a pre-order is, what purposes it serves, or how and why they are useful. Either that - or they are so self absorbed that they simply don't like the concept, and think others shouldn't have that option because they don't want it. 

The bottom line, is that some people had enough information to risk 349 euros - while some others(understandably) were on the fence. It's not exactly a typical product, I imagine many were also feeling the same way about BHTC when it was released... 

I'll ask one more time - if there was no pre-order at ALL, and it was just released as 399 intro offer - would people still be upset?


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

ProfoundSilence said:


> This is the part that is strange to me... pre-orders 2 weeks before release and 2 hours before release are the same price... I waited until the last day to pre-order(although I had made my mind up before hand) There is no rush or obligation to order any faster, so I waited until the most information was out - not just walkthroughs, but more demos - showcasing it was the exact flavor I expected the library to deliver, and it was one that I liked.
> 
> Personally - I literally open the OT website and left the single demo play nightly as I was getting ready for bed. I'd already digested the individual elements from the demo quite a bit by the time walkthroughs and the new demos hit. All of that was available prior to the pre-release ending. Like I said, it's not like 400$ was going to disappear 2 days before the release... so if I had the money a week in advance - i'd still have it up to release.
> 
> 
> As far as people feeling insulted... quite frankly - I don't care. If you are bothered by the fact that someone else with the same information was informed enough to make a decision that you weren't sure of - then there's not much anyone can do for you. If your self worth is tied around being able to chuck 349 euros at a library or not - then forum users aren't responsible for that. I can't afford the new tesla roadster, but I don't feel like less of a person that other people pre-ordered the car before they could drive it/official specs/ratings/ect were out. Nobody is insulting people for not pre-ordering, if anything, I am criticizing the fact that some users have 0 idea what a pre-order is, what purposes it serves, or how and why they are useful. Either that - or they are so self absorbed that they simply don't like the concept, and think others shouldn't have that option because they don't want it.
> 
> The bottom line, is that some people had enough information to risk 349 euros - while some others(understandably) were on the fence. It's not exactly a typical product, I imagine many were also feeling the same way about BHTC when it was released...
> 
> I'll ask one more time - if there was no pre-order at ALL, and it was just released as 399 intro offer - would people still be upset?




this, and the pissed off posts in the Spitfire Wishlist thread, 

is making my coffee extremely enjoyable this lovely Christmas morning.

Merry Christmas!!!


----------



## jbuhler

ProfoundSilence said:


> I'll ask one more time - if there was no pre-order at ALL, and it was just released as 399 intro offer - would people still be upset?


Upset, I'm not sure, but disappointed. The price point for existing users is up considerably over past offers for this series. OT can do what they want, that's true. It doesn't mean people won't feel disappointed, especially given that OT gave no signal that they were changing the tradition.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

@ProfoundSilence --
Did you just join VI Control to spam this thread? Enough, we get it.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Land of Missing Parts said:


> @ProfoundSilence --
> Did you just join VI Control to spam this thread? Enough, we get it.


Whatever you say jack, this thread is relevant to me - because I spent 400$ on it and haven't had time at my home computer to play with it much. Are you surprised I'm watching this thread - for demos like alex's? You still haven't answered my question... Are you legitimately bitter that a pre-order option exists? Or would you rather it just rendered 100% useless because you didn't purchase it during pre-order? No reason to throw stones at me over this. 

Jbuhler is atleast making a case that there was a system previously that he preferred. I assume OT stopped offering that discount because they need new buyers - and already pricy libraries even cheaper to somebody else *apparently* bothers some people. These are all things nobody cared about before OT did sales, and now they are being treated like a generic brand. 

wasn't it you who said you wouldn't pay more than 50$ for an 8dio library? I could be confusing you for someone else, but regardless - 8dio's products are fine, and capable... but they are treated like generic soda by default. This kind of consumerism is literally going to kill samples. The budget required for orchestral sampling in Teldex/MGM sony/AIR is absolutely insane - and users are now comfortable trying to nickel and dime these companies until they go extinct. That's not a path I want to follow - even if it leaves some users behind. If the perceived value of OT libraries goes down - and people decide to only pay 40% off prices, then I expect the quality will go down, and it'll go from 1 velocity layer with 3 round robins down to 2.


----------



## whiskers

ProfoundSilence said:


> Are you legitimately bitter that a pre-order option exists? Or would you rather it just rendered 100% useless because you didn't purchase it during pre-order? No reason to throw stones at me over this.


I don't think that's what he was saying (@Land of Missing Parts correct me if i'm wrong.) I think we were all just disappointed at the fact that there seemed to be little information from the time the preorder started (yes, I know this is not unique to OT). Had the demos and walkthroughs been available prior, we would have had a week to think it over and make a more informed decision.

I'm not salty about the preorder, personally. If someone wants to spend 400$ on reputation alone with minimal info, well, it's their money  I just wish at the preorder we knew more about the product. (Yes, I'm aware there's still the intro price.)

I personally preordered Time Macro, but at the last minute after all the info was posted. I hate feeling rushed, but I guess that's psychology of sales, right there.

Try not to get too salty and worked up, and have a Merry Christmas!


----------



## sostenuto

From Mktg perspective, and with major Library not quite ready for primetime, the Preorder process created enormous exposure and dialogue. 
Sure …. _some_ Yin-Yang reaction, but really amazing vehicle to introduce Ark 4. 
Understand mixed feelings, but OT Mktg likely feels like very Happy Holidays ….


----------



## prodigalson

whiskers said:


> Had the demos and walkthroughs been available prior, we would have had a week to think it over and make a more informed decision.



But there WERE demos AND walkthroughs available before release. Some may not have thought them sufficient but they were there and sufficient for others.


----------



## whiskers

prodigalson said:


> But there WERE demos AND walkthroughs available before release. Some may not have thought them sufficient but they were there and sufficient for others.


I phrased that poorly, but I agree. I meant to say, 'had the demos and walkthroughs been made available prior [to when they were (e.g. earlier)]...

And those people are more comfortable with making decisions with limited information, good on them . I'm not the most decisive person.

Merry Christmas.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

whiskers said:


> I don't think that's what he was saying (@Land of Missing Parts correct me if i'm wrong.) I think we were all just disappointed at the fact that there seemed to be little information from the time the preorder started (yes, I know this is not unique to OT). Had the demos and walkthroughs been available prior, we would have had a week to think it over and make a more informed decision.
> 
> I'm not salty about the preorder, personally. If someone wants to spend 400$ on reputation alone with minimal info, well, it's their money  I just wish at the preorder we knew more about the product. (Yes, I'm aware there's still the intro price.)
> 
> I personally preordered Time Macro, but at the last minute after all the info was posted. I hate feeling rushed, but I guess that's psychology of sales, right there.
> 
> Try not to get too salty and worked up, and have a Merry Christmas!



Having the critique that the info sooner would have been nice is fine... I think most of us would have rather had walkthroughs and demos up sooner - but those with interest(like myself) followed it and held onto my money until the walkthroughs and demos were out. ALL OF THE INFORMATION from demos and the walkthroughs were out before pre-order ended. Some might not want to feel rushed, but it's less than 1 hour of raw playtime to go over the entirety of what is available to see/listen to... And the trailer/demo sounds exactly like the library, as well as the articulation list published very early on. 

This was not an uninformed decision problem - it was an ark 3/time macro problem... too many people had no idea what it was even suppose to be, so they were a little hesitant to risk it before more info was out. I had this issue with time macro - because despite liking the demos, I just wasn't sure what it was supposed to be, or if I'd like and use it myself. In this case, I held onto my money - and when the info was released, I decided not to get it. Ark 3 on the other hand, I was really unsure of - and still hadn't made up my mind after pre-order ended so I coughed up an extra 50 euros to take my time with the decision. 

With time macro, if I had made the decision to buy it during the intro because it was cheaper, I can almost guarantee I'd be disappointed with my purchase, and wish I'd gotten something else. If the 50 euro difference tips the scales, it's hard to make a case that you wanted it enough in the first place. 

Ark 4 on the other hand - has an aesthetic that I like, and extra demos only re-inforced that. 

I think the harmonium from ark 2, the quinted from ark 3, BB muted brass exp, would make for a very fun template. even better might be ark 4 + glory days - but that was another library I just was too on the fence about to take the chance(and im glad I didn't, because ark 4 - despite WAYYYYY less content than glory days, has a flavor I want - not just 'kind of like')


----------



## Mystic

@ProfoundSilence The demos that got released didn't showcase much. I find the user demos far more informative than the two that got released mere days before the preorder. Also, not all of us have the time to sit around on a forum waiting for information to pop up at the last minute like a puppy waiting for it's master at the door. Some of us have jobs that require our attention for more than 4 hours a day.

Whatever though, if it was good enough for you, then bravo. In the future, I hope OT learns from this and that it could certainly have had more money coming in if they had done things properly. In talking to some of the other composers, they are on the same page as myself and aren't happy about how it was handled and thus, we'll either wait or simply not buy it at all. None of these tools are a need. They are simply paints on a pallet. I certainly have no qualms with not buying from a company based on principle because something else will always take it's place. The ball is in their court. heh

I feel like I need some popcorn right now.


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## Land of Missing Parts

whiskers said:


> I don't think that's what he was saying (@Land of Missing Parts correct me if i'm wrong.


I just don't get why Orchestral Tools is trying to get customers to buy before they can see reviews and opinions. What do they have to gain by keeping people in the dark?

I also think it isn't helping them with sales. And it's baffling to see that some people are so keen on advocating for the best interests of Orchestral Tools and against the interests of themselves and their fellow musicians.


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## ProfoundSilence

Mystic said:


> @ProfoundSilence The demos that got released didn't showcase much. I find the user demos far more informative than the two that got released mere days before the preorder. Also, not all of us have the time to sit around on a forum waiting for information to pop up at the last minute like a puppy waiting for it's master at the door. Some of us have jobs that require our attention for more than 4 hours a day.
> 
> Whatever though, if it was good enough for you, then bravo. In the future, I hope OT learns from this and that it could certainly have had more money coming in if they had done things properly. In talking to some of the other composers, they are on the same page as myself and aren't happy about how it was handled and thus, we'll either wait or simply not buy it at all. None of these tools are a need. They are simply paints on a pallet. I certainly have no qualms with not buying from a company based on principle because something else will always take it's place. The ball is in their court. heh
> 
> I feel like I need some popcorn right now.


Not sure who that was directed at, considering my participation has been very sparse and concentrated. 24 hours in a day and it only takes one short poop to check OT/the forums. Spare me the drama, if you're on a forum - you're well versed in "wasting time on the internet". If you don't like their business practice - don't support them.


All I'm going to point out here - is that this was coming on the tail of an insane amount of sampling(glory days), so the library would have been doing it's best just to make it to the finish line in working fashion. 

Given the tight production schedule - and something totally odd, demo writers would definitely take a little longer to figure out a library before making a demo for it. If it was just another string library - they'd have tons of experience writing for string libraries. 

and it was more than 2 demos, and it was more than the night before.

release date was December 19th
demo 1 when the trailer launched. 
screencast 1 on dec 13
screencast 2 on dec 14
3 demos on the 17th
2 on the 18th. 
then it was released on the 19th. 

if you were interested December 6th - you could save money then - and just check a day or two before the actual launch. It's not like OT is a wildcard - it's not like you're buying from a company nobody has heard of, or has any experience with... they have been a very consistent developer, and all the information was there. At this point you're upset that you didn't have demos a whole week before hand to mull over? My advice is this, if you need a week to decide if you want a niche library - and suddenly an extra 50 euros makes it off the table - then you didn't want the library enough... just leave it at that, and sleep easier tonight.

As I've stated, that's how I felt about time macro - and I don't regret not buying it.

ark 3, time macro, and ark 4 are not typical sample libraries... give the demo writers a break. Most of this boils down to the same thing... a handful of events have made people frustrated at something they wouldn't have been 2 months ago. Some might have been mad because they weren't sure if they should buy ark 1 + 2 or wait for 4 - but that just comes down to listening. 

The very first demo(the trailer) and the articulation list is quite a lot of information... reading the instrumentation and listening to the piece allows you to pretty handily identify different instruments and articulations in the mix. This requires you actually know what any of these instruments actually sound like - but I assume if you're spending 400$ on a sample library then you probably have ears, and care about these instrument combinations. 

I mean, I struggle to think of an instrument that wasn't used in the trailer... sure not every single articulation was used, but are you really going to say you didn't buy it because you didn't hear the Mid string diminuendos? Why do people feel the need to completely blow out of proportion the information they had access to during the preorder? Seems like their production schedule is extremely rushed lately, and nice to have information sooner? sure. But with OT demos, they are exceptionally clear. OT libraries sound exactly like OT demos, and to my knowledge, most demos don't even use much post outside of maybe a bricasti send on the master... I'd love to have had all the demos up on December 6th myself - but you can tell just about all you need to know with the following 3 pieces of information:

OT's consistency historically
The demo
the articulation list.

People who pre-ordered aren't making a blind guess, most of us have plenty of experience with the QA of their products - can listen to a demo, look at an articulation list & relisten to the demo while looking at the articulation list to figure out if we want that aesthetic. Personally, I bought berlin expasions before I even purchased one of their main libraries to get a feel for the company.


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## ProfoundSilence

Land of Missing Parts said:


> I also think it isn't helping them with sales.



Neither you nor I know that. This feels like it's blurring the line between the previous ark owner discount and pre-order discount, while silently moving the baseline price up due to inflation. Like offering a loyalty discount that doesn't exclude other OT clients that didn't own any of the Ark series, or newcomers. If they find that the bulk of their sales are pre-orders with previous owners, they are not likely to lose any ark fans over an extra 50$, especially given the nature of the library as almost a "first chairs" for arks they already own. I suspect some grumbled, but ultimately bought it anyways.


[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.8)]


Land of Missing Parts said:


> And it's baffling to see that some people are so keen on advocating for the best interests of Orchestral Tools and against the interests of themselves and their fellow musicians, and against the VI Control spirit of helping people make the most informed decisions they can. It just seems lose-lose-lose.



For clients of sample libraries, as well as fans of orchestral tools products - it's in our best interest to be smarter than your average bear. Catering to the lowest bidders is absolutely suicidal. Do you have literally any idea how much it costs to rent one of these spaces, recording engineers - and hire session musicians/an orchestra? Exactly how much do you think it costs to record these libraries???????

Look at products like wivi… they were really ahead of their time, and quite impressive - but development or even interest in those kinds of virtual instruments just about came to a halt - because it was far too difficult and unrewarding. 

I bought around 2700$ worth of a CCC from EWQL - and now you could get all of that and more for a monthly subscription. EW has already made their money - instead these up and coming library developers have to sample odd instruments, because there is no reason hiring a budget orchestra, with budget equiptment, and then desperately trying to recoup costs because someone down the street is selling an unfathomably expensive recording, editing, and scripting process to make the EWQL products for next to nothing. 


Entire sectors of the market are disappearing, leaving only the biggest competitors able to afford the resources to make a competitive product, and having to sell it as low as they can manage - while still paying royalties/digging themselves out of debt, so someone can piss and moan that they can't save 50 euros on it.

not sure how much it costs to score something in teldex, but for a relatively short piece at MGM, it costs nearly 10 grand. Imagine paying for every note to be sampled, at multiple dynamics, with multiple articulations. 

This radical consumerism is going to continue to choke sample libraries, and eventually cause them all to try to make other products that are vastly more profitable.


Mini rant: look at MOBAs and the death of the MMO genre. F2p mmos came out, saturated the market - and destroyed the mmo market, while destroying any chance of decent games to exist because they competed directly with P2W games that lived off "whales" rather than general player happiness. Meanwhile, FPS games, and Mobas - are INSANELY CHEAPER to make, because they require a fraction of the art assets, and make a ton more money. 


Now if you want a reasonable MMO gaming experience - goodluck.

So this "consumer first" business only works when you can be sure that the business is thriving. And given the price tag of OT products - I can guarantee you that they suffer from massive amounts of piracy. Be grateful we have companies like cinesamples, spitfire, and Orchestral tools(and almost a full orchestra in trackdown). Spitfire has relied a lot on marketing, sometimes less than savory. 

An excellent example was the tragically long period of time that the expansions for SSO existed - giving more microphone positions, and professional mixes... these were 399 EACH SECTION and had 0 demos for years... not a single demo of even the extra mics, and I didn't know a single person who had any of these expansions - so there was no user data either. 



So please, have some perspective. [/COLOR]​


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## Mystic

You're sounding like a total shill for OT. This is entertaining to say the least.


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## jbuhler

Mystic said:


> You're sounding like a total shill for OT. This is entertaining to say the least.


Yes, that took quite a bizarre turn.


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## ProfoundSilence

disregard logic, respond with baseless ad hominem.

The writing is on the wall - don't say I didn't warn you. Calling someone a shill is soooooo 2016 anyways. Kind of odd to stick up for 4 major players in the orchestral sampling world, only to be reduced to a shill for one of them.

Personally, knowing what the library is good at and what I feel like it should be used for - I'm more interested in how people use it to augment the berlin or ark series. Or even glory days...


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## jbuhler

ProfoundSilence said:


> Personally, knowing what the library is good at and what I feel like it should be used for - I'm more interested in how people use it to augment the berlin or ark series. Or even glory days...


Sure, I think we'd all be interested in hearing about that, and sampling being a capitalistic enterprise, the companies will rise or fall on their ability to make money off the samples they sell. Yes, that's a double-edged sword, and if you want to make a decent return on investment, you have to price your library at a point that it will sell to more than just seasoned professionals. That's a quandary to be sure. It may lead to a race to the bottom. 

OT recently changed the model of how they will conduct business. The announcement of the January event suggests more change is in the air. Where will it head? Who knows? You mourn it in your way, with a rant about the fall into consumerism, I mourn it mine with disappointment about the passing of a traditional price structure that makes me worry about a company that is raising prices in a declining market, that seems to me to be cutting corners in order to bring products to market more quickly, that holds a series of big sales—the first time they've done it at scale—and it comes off as completely uncoordinated. I hope that is in fact just a sign of rapid growth, though it doesn't feel that way. 

Ark 4, on the other hand, still seems very incoherent to me as a library, even if it has things that I very much like, such as the strings and the overblown articulations. But I'm not convinced OT really had the concept of the library down and I suspect this will show in their sales. My guess is that the sales of Time Macro exceeded expectations and so we'll be seeing more of that kind of thing, because the price point was good and you know consumerism and all that. But that's just a suspicion, and whether I'm right or wrong, matters not in the least because it's obviously OT's decision to make.


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## ProfoundSilence

I think they had a vision - many asked for a "first chairs" type ark. Seems like they combined elements of this idea with the success BHTC had. I see it more like the first chairs situation - but the perspective really comes down to how you plan on using it.


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## jbuhler

ProfoundSilence said:


> I think they had a vision - many asked for a "first chairs" type ark. Seems like they combined elements of this idea with the success BHTC had. I see it more like the first chairs situation - but the perspective really comes down to how you plan on using it.


The string selection makes sense to me (and the strings do sound exceptional), and even the idea of a more intimate sound that nevertheless struggles for and against the epic. I hear this idea in the choir, though I wonder if it succeeds (or rather whether the way certain voices pop out on certain notes will become quickly tiresome). (The shouts though are great.) But the woodwinds seem more an attempt to avoid stepping on Berlin Woodwinds than something that makes sense for the logic of this library (or the Ark collection) and the combinations in BHCT come from a different kind of logic than the one that OT pursued for the other Ark libraries. The best I can say for the woodwinds in terms of the concept is that these combinations do struggle with and against the epic idea of the assimilation of the individual sound into the ensemble mass in a way that would not have been the case had they been done like the ensemble patches in Arks 1 and 2. That idea actually intrigues me, but I'm not sure if I'd find it useful as a compositional resource, and I'm not convinced the library has been recorded and mixed for the library to realize that idea in a way that I can't get by just dialing up a set of woodwinds and having them play unisons or octaves. I mean will I just continue to use other woodwinds? Almost certainly for everything but the overblown articulations, which seem like real gems, and these do seem to go back to the struggle of the epic and the individual within it. (I might also use the short trills, but I'm not sure how they fit with the idea of the library). The power legato—I've yet to hear an example of it that convinces me of its utility, though I can see how this fits with the idea of the library.

So does this add up to something I need to buy because it offers me something I don't otherwise have or something that would be fun in the way that say Ark 3 is even if I don't end up using it in work very often? Well, I'm not sure, and I'm not even sure if I've analyzed the library more or less correctly because I still haven't heard enough demos or seen a user walkthrough (hopefully these will start appear after the holidays) to get a complete handle on it.


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## ProfoundSilence

well personally, in the short moments I open my daw without feeling too overwhelmed - using the sustain + power sustain 2d cross fade is cool. 

one thing that IS nice - is that the power legato transitions are selectable in multis - meaning you could technically take martele and add power legato transitions. 

I actually think a combo with one of the longer "shorts" and power sustains will actually be something I use more than the power legato patches. This is especially useful because of the very next problem I have:

the power legato is only 1 dynamic layer.

If I were in your shoes I'd pass. Mainly because the aesthetic alone doesn't seem to be grabbing you - so unless you're heavily invested into teldex and what some unique instruments added to the stage - don't worry about. If you've got berlin strings, or 2 arks - it's still probably worth getting if you think you'll actually use the patches for supplementing. 


If you've got ark 3, you probably already know about how incredible the quintet secretly is... layering that on the other ark shorts is already awesome - especially if you blend a little of the cluster in. 


Using these articulations(like the overblown and power legatos) add a lot to the other OT products. Having the strings almost niente quiet adds what feels like "more" cc1 range when stacked with a regular string legato. And the horns especially, because the transitions are almost rips, which sounds really cool with the other berlin/ark horns. The piccolo/flute has some cool little grace note type things too in the legato... surprisingly would work for ethnic type stuff.


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## jbuhler

ProfoundSilence said:


> well personally, in the short moments I open my daw without feeling too overwhelmed - using the sustain + power sustain 2d cross fade is cool.
> 
> one thing that IS nice - is that the power legato transitions are selectable in multis - meaning you could technically take martele and add power legato transitions.
> 
> I actually think a combo with one of the longer "shorts" and power sustains will actually be something I use more than the power legato patches. This is especially useful because of the very next problem I have:
> 
> the power legato is only 1 dynamic layer.
> 
> If I were in your shoes I'd pass. Mainly because the aesthetic alone doesn't seem to be grabbing you - so unless you're heavily invested into teldex and what some unique instruments added to the stage - don't worry about. If you've got berlin strings, or 2 arks - it's still probably worth getting if you think you'll actually use the patches for supplementing.
> 
> 
> If you've got ark 3, you probably already know about how incredible the quintet secretly is... layering that on the other ark shorts is already awesome - especially if you blend a little of the cluster in.
> 
> 
> Using these articulations(like the overblown and power legatos) add a lot to the other OT products. Having the strings almost niente quiet adds what feels like "more" cc1 range when stacked with a regular string legato. And the horns especially, because the transitions are almost rips, which sounds really cool with the other berlin/ark horns. The piccolo/flute has some cool little grace note type things too in the legato... surprisingly would work for ethnic type stuff.


Thank you! This is most helpful. The little things you mentioned about the transitions actually sound pretty cool and something that would be nice. I heard inklings of these in the demos but couldn’t get a full sense of what they might do.


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## ProfoundSilence

heres a little noodling trying to show the "random" grace notes. Then I armed the MA high strings 8va legato just to show what high winds would sound like with MA. 

I don't do epic music - but I imagine some 2SFH like pirate/celtic epic track that ends up on one of those compilations.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/fltpcma1l-mp3.17489/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## ProfoundSilence

those were power legatos, btw.

heres an example of using the same MA4 instrument twice with different sustain/transitions.

I'm using 1 horn from BB, then sustains martele and power sustains from MA4(the horn bassoon patch)

I'd normally try to blend mics/those two a little better - but I just loaded them up, activated mics and adjusted overall instrument volume to sit together.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/horn-example-mp3.17490/][/AUDIOPLUS]

ofcourse you'd ATLEAST want to pan the duplicate instrument a little differently... but that goes without saying... I just gave that example because instead of going super "epic" 6 horns using the bells up patches from BB(the one people forget exists heh) its just "3" horns, which is a much smaller ensemble sound, but more wild and aggressive dynamics than BB on it's own.

edit: this is why you shouldn't make examples without exploring your library - I had the close mic 3 on, but not 1 or 2. Close mic 3 in that patch is on the bassoon(so I close mic'd the bassoons in those patches, but not the horns)


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## ProfoundSilence

using the close mic 2(the actual horn close mic) I put a 2 horn example, to show how it's almost like a lead horn for legato stuff.

I'd probably hand pick the legato transitions so it's not repetitive and nauseating, but I figured I'd use a somewhat familiar melody(I reaaaally should be noodling with a metronome, rather than trying to guess the tempo after I play a legato line with rabuto)

in this case I actually armed a sustain patch from BB for horn 1(although horn 2 is probably a better horn to pair with the ark 4 horn) to showcase the differences in tonal quality and dynamic range. ofcourse the gap is smaller with shorts, but like I said - It's an excellent addition to berlin owners.

and I used the ark 4 high string legato patch here too - although I have no idea what I was doing at the end, except throwing my fingers around wildly.( using berlin strings viola spiccato + ark 3 quintet spiccato lazily )

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/2-horn-lighter-example-mp3.17493/][/AUDIOPLUS]

also, dear johnny - I borrowed this, because it has nice intervals for the legato transitions


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## Wolf68

thanks to everybody who is posting Demos here! but I am still missing a demo that gives an in depth Impression of the string legatos and *power legatos*. especially the Violas. whatever. if there should be somewhere a string addict who wants to share his/her experience...I would be so glad!


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## turnerofwheels

Parsifal666 said:


> I like the video, but does the brass sound pretty fake at times here or is it just me?
> 
> I feel like I'm being very picky, so apologies...at least I didn't bring up legato lol!



A bit late to the response but not at all! I find it's more the strings that my ears have problems with than the brass, though I'd be curious to know what aspects of it sound off to yours. But to be fair small string sections--I don't think I've ever run across a sample library that does it convincingly for me. Even the almighty Spitfire Chamber Strings I find I use sparingly--if I'm going for absolute realism.

I may sound critical, but I am enjoying this library and like the sound of it quite a lot. Most of what I do these days isn't really concerned with realism anyway.. lol (though it's still always good to hear from people who might have more in depth experience with the actual instruments being sampled)


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## tebling

So, the Ark 4 intro pricing will be ending soon, and I'm on the fence! With all the recent OT news, I'm wondering how sensible it would be to buy now at the intro price - especially given that I own Ark 1+2 and the potential savings on completing the Ark bundle might be more attractive. Thoughts?


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## ProfoundSilence

thoughts that come to mind?

I will be completely shocked if ark 4 is playable with the new OT sampler before fall. Do you need ark 4 in the next 12 months?

If you want it sooner rather than later - pick it up, or just wait and pick the parts you want when you want them later(hopefully sometime this year). 

As someone who owns everything except the inspires and some expansions - I'm personally excited, but also keeping my expectations pretty low when it comes to timeframe that I'll get to use my libraries in the new engine. But that's just who I am, I'd rather assume it'll take a year and be surprised when it's in beta in 3 months, than expect it in 3 months and it go into beta in a year.


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## sostenuto

Not letting LA Promo session impact my decisions … especially ARK 4. New projects look impressive, but many variables before all comes to successful fruition. 
Keeping powder dry through SF _ LCO whatever (tomorrow), then ARK 4 decision.


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## tebling

ProfoundSilence said:


> thoughts that come to mind?
> I will be completely shocked if ark 4 is playable with the new OT sampler before fall. Do you need ark 4 in the next 12 months?



I'm not really concerned about having Ark 4 in the new sampler - my question was more around the financial aspects given that Ark 4 is going to be offered as a bundle with discount. I thought the bundle pricing announcement was separate from the new sampler and we'd see those discounts earlier? But maybe I'm making a bad assumption - I kind of skimmed through the presentation.


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## ProfoundSilence

tebling said:


> I'm not really concerned about having Ark 4 in the new sampler - my question was more around the financial aspects given that Ark 4 is going to be offered as a bundle with discount. I thought the bundle pricing announcement was separate from the new sampler and we'd see those discounts earlier? But maybe I'm making a bad assumption - I kind of skimmed through the presentation.




well i'd imagine unless you had all 3 other arks you're probably not going to see a 40%. 

it said "up to 40%" Also worth noting, that I'm not sure if you'll be able to buy the kontakt versions after their new sampler is launched - and while I don't pretend to know how licensing works, if it costs them more money to sell it to you as a kontakt instrument, they might remove that option after the new sampler goes live - and then you would be at the mercy of the sampler. 

ofcourse this is all wild speculation - but just trying to come up with reasons that you might regret NOT buying it sooner rather than later - since that's the deadline that is prompting you to decide.


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## Land of Missing Parts

tebling said:


> I'm not really concerned about having Ark 4 in the new sampler - my question was more around the financial aspects given that Ark 4 is going to be offered as a bundle with discount. I thought the bundle pricing announcement was separate from the new sampler and we'd see those discounts earlier? But maybe I'm making a bad assumption - I kind of skimmed through the presentation.


I don't think anyone here knows the answer. At some point in 2019 Orchestral Tools will have a new online store, and you'll be able to purchase bundles up to 40% off. They haven't said when. The examples in the video were a bundle with all of the Arks, and another bundle with Berlin Inspire 1+2, no price given for either.

That said, if it were me I'd wait. Nine times out of ten it's better to wait, unless you need it for a current project. Ark 4 is currently around 28% off at the intro price. Prices tend to go down over time in general, and in this specific moment they seem to be going down faster than ever.


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## tebling

ProfoundSilence said:


> ofcourse this is all wild speculation - but just trying to come up with reasons that you might regret NOT buying it sooner rather than later - since that's the deadline that is prompting you to decide.



Yeah, my long game is to have the whole collection. Depending on how they do it, it may make little difference if I buy 4 now and 3 when the bundle is available versus buying 3+4 at that time.

I'm leaning toward getting in on the intro price as I do think it's something I'll make use of in the coming months.

In any case, I appreciate your input - wild speculation and all!


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## tebling

Land of Missing Parts said:


> That said, if it were me I'd wait. Nine times out of ten it's better to wait, unless you need it for a current project.



You and ProfoundSilence are like the devil and angel sitting on my shoulders! 

Now you've reminded me how good the OT NI sale was, and if there's something similar down the road then yeah waiting is prudent. It's a strong want versus a need after all...


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## ProfoundSilence

keep in mind, OT might have been doing sales just to get some cash flow/people into the ecosystem when it had a high point of entry. 

the NKS sale was purely "sponsored" by native instruments, so don't get your view of how orchestral tools will run sales distorted. 

that 40% might only end up applying to someone who has the full berlin orchestra buying expansions /shrug. 

but honestly, if you just *want* it - you might as well wait, and buy the instruments you think you want separately down the road. there are many other OT libraries I'd buy before buying ark 4, but YMMV


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