# Will libraries-backed notation software replace DAW?



## gohrev

I use Sibelius + NotePerformer, and I wonder if we’ll see a move from DAW to notation software; to create final mock-ups that sound as good as one you’d spend hours tinkering on in your DAW?

Curious to read your thoughts on this


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## dcoscina

I think not for media composing. The time constraints and how entrenched those software platforms are in the industry wouldn't suggest they are going away anytime soon. 

For smaller projects and concert composers, something like Staffpad is a serious contender. Even orchestras/conductors want good mock ups and Staffpad does deliver in that capacity (at least much better than the existing notation programs do).


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## Rory

As a user of both Logic and SoftPad, I think that StaffPad is a great notation tool but doesn't come close. The third party StaffPad add-ons are hugely stripped down from the original virtual instruments. There's a StaffPad recreation of a Stravinsky piece on YouTube that is embarrassing. For some purposes one might get away with the add-on pianos, but I don't think beyond that.

That doesn't mean that the technology isn't coming, but I think that it's a good ways off at the moment.


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## Eric G

Rory said:


> As a user of both Logic and SoftPad, I think that StaffPad is a great notation tool but doesn't come close. The third party StaffPad add-ons are hugely stripped down from the original virtual instruments. There's a StaffPad recreation of a Stravinsky piece on YouTube that is embarrassing. For some purposes one might get away with the add-on pianos, but I don't think beyond that.
> 
> That doesn't mean that the technology isn't coming, but I think that it's a good ways off at the moment.


Uhmmm...I wouldn't use some random somebody's StaffPad mockup off of youtube lol. I could show you several of DAW based Stravinsky mockups that are horrid.


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## Rory

Eric G said:


> Uhmmm...I wouldn't use some random somebody's StaffPad mockup off of youtube lol. I could show you several of DAW based Stravinsky mockups that are horrid.



That reference was simply illustrative of a substantive issue that you ignored. Do you think that it's possible to use StaffPad to make a credible mock-up of The Rite of Spring and that it would be easier than doing it in a DAW? If so, show us instead of dumping on someone whose channel you haven't even looked at.

There are people who seem to be pushing the idea that StaffPad is a mini-DAW. It isn't being marketed that way because it isn't. The idea doesn't square with the sizes of the libraries or the control that one has, but if people want to believe that, fine.

I think that StaffPad is a great tool for what it is, and I have no need to fantasise about it being something that it isn't.


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## Eric G

To answer the question I would say it depends. 

If you are a skilled Keyboardist or MIDI programmer, I don't see how StaffPad is an advantage. The DAW/MIDI workflow was designed with Keyboardist in mind and is optimized for them.

If however, you are not a keyboardist and know notation then StaffPad is designed for your workflow. IMHO MIDI is a bane in modern composing and there is NOTHING musical about MIDI. Its a technicians/programmers solution to a problem. The fact that I show MIDI output to any of the classical composers (or even 20th century modern composers such John Williams) and they wouldn't have a clue speaks volumes. And IMHO, StaffPad can create a more musical output that what I can create with MIDI.

But I would never take raw audio output from StaffPad due to the necessity of MIXING and MASTERING that have far more tools to make audio richer etc. In addition to the need to have recorded instruments or a VST instrument to complement the composition. So Cubase/ProTools will always be necessary and in my workflow.

FOR ME I create richer compositions because I leverage my knowledge of notation and the ability to read the scores of the masters and apply it to my work.

Doesn't have to be a zero sum game folks. DAWS/MIDI will be around for a while. But for ME StaffPad has already taken DAWS/MIDI out of 75% of my WORKFLOW.


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## gohrev

I (like to) think that, in the context of orchestral compositions, DAWs will be completely replaced by notation software + sample libraries. 

If I'm not mistaken, the reason why NotePerformer sounds pretty convincing is that its artificial intelligence "looks a couple of bars ahead", thus anticipating which dynamics are appropriate (or how to interpret those marked by the composer) for that specific moment. 

This is only going to improve, and in the very end, only the best library makers will survive.

Hey, a boy can dream..


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## Eric G

Rory said:


> That reference was simply illustrative of a substantive issue that you ignored. Do you think that it's possible to use StaffPad to make a credible mock-up of The Rite of Spring and that it would be easier than doing it in a DAW? If so, show us instead of dumping on someone whose channel you haven't even looked at.
> 
> There are people who seem to be pushing the idea that StaffPad is a mini-DAW. It isn't being marketed that way because it isn't. The idea doesn't square with the sizes of the libraries or the control that one has, but if people want to believe that, fine.
> 
> I think that StaffPad is a great tool for what it is, and I have no need to fantasise about it being something that it isn't.


Give a simple HOT TAKE answer. Expect a HOT TAKE back. 

Give a more thoughtful response next time. You weren't using "illustrative or substantive" in your first response it was more "stripped down", "embarrassing" . And its pretty obvious you haven't seen many StaffPad examples or seen the response by composers on this forum.


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## Rory

Eric G said:


> And its pretty obvious you haven't seen many StaffPad examples or seen the response by composers on this forum.



There is nothing particularly controversial in what I said. Meanwhile, since StaffPad was released for the Mac I've listened to every single StaffPad sound file posted to this forum and watched every single StaffPad sound file video posted to YouTube. I've done that precisely to assess just what StaffPad's limits are. As far as I can tell, we're in basic agreement on the substance, so I don't see what the point is of your belligerence.


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## Saxer

The Staffpad playback engine is really great! It's a big step forward! But the result is what it is. It's not for professional use. Not because of the sound. If you have a client and send a Staffpad mockup and they will say: yeah, great, but can we have this a bit more closer and intimate? Or they want it more "modern". Or more like the temp music soundwise. In a DAW you just do it. In Staffpad you would need different Staffpad.


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## bryla

And here I’m moving back to pen and paper these days.


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## dcoscina

Eric G said:


> Uhmmm...I wouldn't use some random somebody's StaffPad mockup off of youtube lol. I could show you several of DAW based Stravinsky mockups that are horrid.


Exactly


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## Juanki

This is a mockup for stravinsky write in Staffpad:

Leonardo outerio have written other compositions in staffpad.


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## Eric G

bryla said:


> And here I’m moving back to pen and paper these days.


Some composers never left pen and paper.


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## Rory

Juanki said:


> This is a mockup for stravinsky write in Staffpad:
> 
> Leonardo outerio have written other compositions in staffpad.




Yes, that's the StaffPad version that I'm talking about. It's a pure StaffPad rendition and says a lot about the app's limitations, which I don't think are going to get "fixed" by stripped-down third party libraries and limited ability to manipulate them.

I do want to point out that bashing YouTube and Mr. Outerio was rather out of line, not just because the person doing the bashing and the person tagging along know literally nothing about him, but because he didn't manipulate the file. In fact, it was helpful of Mr. Outerio to upload this.

That said, I've heard some piano renditions that might be adequate as mock-ups, but that's solo piano. Does going with a StaffPad version of solo piano even save time?


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## purple

Can't make as good of a mockup in notation software. It's inherently limited by the way they handle "performances". Also notation software is far less flexible as to what plugins, samples, audio files, etc. you want to implement. For these reasons they could never surpass DAWs for 90% of media composition. For concert composers, why not? If you don't need a really good mockup it's much better to just write it in that way. But I don't know any concert composers who use a DAW anyways.


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## Eric G

I will gladly limit my skills to the level of concert composers and what StaffPad can produce out of the box (I still recommending mixing and mastering in protools because of the plugins with my output from StaffPad). Here is one rendered on an IPad by “Winning” by Philip Rothman


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## Eric G

And if I am limited by the "stripped down" articulations this demo. I'll be OK.

David William Hearn "Snow Falling"


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## Michael Antrum

Rory said:


> Yes, that's the StaffPad version that I'm talking about. It's a pure StaffPad rendition and says a lot about the app's limitations, which I don't think are going to get "fixed" by stripped-down third party libraries and limited ability to manipulate them.



I think you are a little confused about what Staffpad is actually for. It is not trying to replace or be a traditional DAW or engraving application.

It is a composition tool. 

I like, like many, like to write on paper. (There's no way I can carry around all the different parts of the orchestra in my head.) 

Then you would normally have the step of inputting the paper score into a DAW and then creating the mockup. Or you may then be then entering it into an engraving program for a beautifully prepared score. Staffpad reduces and simplifies these processes.

When I have got the music written into Staffpad, with very little effort (and sometimes no effort at all) I also have an often very good mockup, plus an XML file I can get into a DAW or Notation App if needs be. For someone like me who has a very busy working life, normally with a lot of travel, this means I can compose in airport lounges, restaurant tables, etc.

For a busy professional, I can imagine it could be a huge timesaver.

Staffpad is a composition tool. It is for writing music, testing ideas out with libraries that sound 'good enough' at worst, and are often quite impressive. 

So whilst I won't be throwing away my copy of Cubase or Dorico, I spend far less time sitting behind a desk as I don't use them for composition anymore. Now they are more of a finishing tool.

I can now sit in the garden with an iPad and a cold beer, instead of being hunched over a desk. Seems remarkably civilised to me.

When I'm happy - I have an often more than serviceable mockup. If you want a full blown high quality audio mock-up - import into a DAW. Want a beautiful engraved score - into Dorico it goes.

(and I haven't even mentioned the live scores updates over Wifi)

That is what Staffpad is for, and it's very good at it indeed.





P.S.I have heard people say for them paper is much faster than Staffpad - well my experience is that isn't the case when I start deleting/editing stuff that doesn't work, or trying out different ideas to see which works. When that happens I end up with a paper avalanche. Perhaps, as a hobbyist Im am not skilled enough to get it right first time ! (The most common feature I am using in Staffpad is cut, copy and paste !)


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## yiph2

Michael Antrum said:


> I think you are a little confused about what Staffpad is actually for. It is not trying to replace or be a traditional DAW or engraving application.
> 
> It is a composition tool.
> 
> I like, like many, like to write on paper. (There's no way I can carry around all the different parts of the orchestra in my head.)
> 
> Then you would normally have the step of inputting the paper score into a DAW and then creating the mockup. Or you may then be then entering it into an engraving program for a beautifully prepared score. Staffpad reduces and simplifies these processes.
> 
> When I have got the music written into Staffpad, with very little effort (and sometimes no effort at all) I also have an often very good mockup, plus an XML file I can get into a DAW or Notation App if needs be. For someone like me who has a very busy working life, normally with a lot of travel, this means I can compose in airport lounges, restaurant tables, etc.
> 
> For a busy professional, I can imagine it could be a huge timesaver.
> 
> Staffpad is a composition tool. It is for writing music, testing ideas out with libraries that sound 'good enough' at worst, and are often quite impressive.
> 
> So whilst I won't be throwing away my copy of Cubase or Dorico, I spend far less time sitting behind a desk as I don't use them for composition anymore. Now they are more of a finishing tool.
> 
> I can now sit in the garden with an iPad and a cold beer, instead of being hunched over a desk. Seems remarkably civilised to me.
> 
> When I'm happy - I have an often more than serviceable mockup. If you want a full blown high quality audio mock-up - import into a DAW. Want a beautiful engraved score - into Dorico it goes.
> 
> (and I haven't even mentioned the live scores updates over Wifi)
> 
> That is what Staffpad is for, and it's very good at it indeed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P.S.I have heard people say for them paper is much faster than Staffpad - well my experience is that isn't the case when I start deleting/editing stuff that doesn't work, or trying out different ideas to see which works. When that happens I end up with a paper avalanche. Perhaps, as a hobbyist Im am not skilled enough to get it right first time ! (The most common feature I am using in Staffpad is cut, copy and paste !)


Well yes, it is a great tool (I assume), but the question was whether it will replace a DAW. And for me, I don't think so


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## Rory

Hi Michael,



Michael Antrum said:


> I think you are a little confused about what Staffpad is actually for. It is not trying to replace or be a traditional DAW or engraving application.
> 
> It is a composition tool.




I think that if you read more of this thread you'll discover that my whole point is that StaffPad is a compositional tool and not a mini-DAW. In other words, I agree with you entirely. I use StaffPad myself, and think that it is great for what it was designed for and what it is actually marketed for.


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## gohrev

I now regret mentioning StaffPad in my opening post, haha


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## Woodie1972

I think the comparison between any DAW and Staffpad can't be made as they are too different in what they are designed for.
I think what the OP means is more a comparison between the major DAW's and software like Finale, Sibelius, Dorico and so on.
As a Cubase and Dorico user (before Dorico I used Finale for >15 years), I can only say that Dorico wipes the floar with Finale in terms of playback. Dorico then is less capable of playback than the major DAW's, although it seems that the Dorico team and Steinberg are working on Cubase and Dorico being integrated in the future. The new update for Dorico again provides better control of playback, but is still not at the same level as the major DAW's. You can tweak a lot in Dorico, but every major DAW will beat Dorico in everything but notation.


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## colony nofi

Oh @Woodie1972 - I agree a bunch! I cannot WAIT to see what happens with closer integration between Cubase/Nuendo and Dorico. And if Dorico ever chose to go the ipad-pro route with an app along the lines of staffpad, I'd LOVE it. As it is, I've begun experimenting with a workflow using staffpad info dorico/nuendo. Even for some media work... I have a feeling getting the original idea out on staffpad for a cue might actually be an extremely interesting way of working and really concentrating on the idea rather than all the other noise that revolves around media/ad projects. And if there's instrumental recording at the end, I'm in a great place.

I don't see something like staffpad replacing DAWS, but rather offering new workflows / new possibilites. Perhaps one day we will see some sort of hybrid that really can be the one to rule them all. Unfortunately, as much as we all like to think the market is huge, its not as big as you might think for people that write using staff. DAW manufacturers rely on the bedroom musicians to prop up their professional products, yet have pro products to boost the feeling of the hobbyists using the same things (ish) as the pro's. The DAW market is SO different to something like staffpad... its not going to do everything that beat makers etc use. Its not yet close to DAWS for what you can do with mockups. And given most media music that uses instruments where a staff is important ALSO use some electronic elements, I doubt a staffpad only workflow will ever be the thing that replaces DAWS. Its all a lot messier and more interesting than that.

That's my little ramble anyway.


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## Ivan M.

@berlin87 

Yes! I'm so tired of tinkering with libraries, and keyswitches, and CCs, and timings, and envelopes, and articulations, and tracks, and items, and more tracks... I spend way more time producing, than composing. It completelly kills my will to create anything. I just end up playing with the piano. 

The current technology is still cumbersome and technical details get in the way too much.

I had some old hardware synth, which didn't have realistic sounds, but it was simple, and simple to compose and orchestrate with. It also had a full keyboard string patch, velocity sensitive. The library I've got now and it's full string ensemble is not nicely blended, and not velocity sensitive, you have to use the ubiquitous dynamics CC, so I can't enjoy playing or composing with it.

We need simplicity. And the technology is yet to offer it. What really changed in the past say 20 years? But really changed? We've got better sample recordings, and that's it.

I really like the idea where I can just compose and put in a bunch of notes, and it comes out as a good performace. For some time now I'm really tempted to get a notation software and this noteperformer thing. Seems to me I would be more happy.


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## colony nofi

Ivan M. said:


> @berlin87
> 
> 
> We need simplicity. And the technology is yet to offer it. What really changed in the past say 20 years? But really changed? We've got better sample recordings, and that's it.
> 
> I really like the idea where I can just compose and put in a bunch of notes, and it comes out as a good performace. For some time now I'm really tempted to get a notation software and this noteperformer thing. Seems to me I would be more happy.



Whats changed in the past 20 years? Media (and most mid/lower level film) Composers have become WAY more technical. Have become more of a sound engineer. If anyone here has done fast turn around ad work, or changed 10 cues half way through a doco mix... where's the sound engineer in this workflow? Gone. We're the sound engineer. This doesn't always make for better finished compositions. It does make for faster workflows which suit much of the clients just fine - and many many don't notice the difference. (Depends massively who you are working with.)

Many sample libs are a reaction to all this. How to get great sounding compositions in really really quick short time. Not having sound engineers (or mastering engineers - remember them?) helping out.

They're not always quick though - its EASY to get sucked down the rabbit hole - especially if trying to make something sound truly orchestral....

More rambling.


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## dcoscina

colony nofi said:


> Whats changed in the past 20 years? Media (and most mid/lower level film) Composers have become WAY more technical. Have become more of a sound engineer. If anyone here has done fast turn around ad work, or changed 10 cues half way through a doco mix... where's the sound engineer in this workflow? Gone. We're the sound engineer. This doesn't always make for better finished compositions. It does make for faster workflows which suit much of the clients just fine - and many many don't notice the difference. (Depends massively who you are working with.)
> 
> Many sample libs are a reaction to all this. How to get great sounding compositions in really really quick short time. Not having sound engineers (or mastering engineers - remember them?) helping out.
> 
> They're not always quick though - its EASY to get sucked down the rabbit hole - especially if trying to make something sound truly orchestral....
> 
> More rambling.


I think you've hit upon something here. DAWs are definitely more production focussed. The way they are set up allows for microscopic changes to the "sound" of a piece. But they don't always produce substantive music. The client wants a certain sound, we give it to them, we get paid. Very few clients will care if you are using 5th species counterpoint (ok, none of them will) or observing the rules of wind arrangement.... And because so much work is done inside the DAW and played/performed by VIs, composers needn't care whether an alto flute player will run out of breath with 6 tied whole notes....

Notation-based apps like Sibelius/Finale/Dorico are fabulous for engraver quality, print scores. But they never were too intuitive or fast (for me) when it came to the act of composing. There was a lot of the interface that got in the way.

Staffpad fills the need for quick, transparent writing, very good playback (I don't think the libraries are that scaled down compared to their bigger brothers and if anyone happened to listen to my interview with David, he explains why that is). It also provides a great stepping stone to either mastering the music in a DAW, or sending to the bigger notation programs to prepare for concert performance.

Is it ready for professional composers who are on tight timelines? I don't think so quite yet. At present, it appeals to concert composers who ultimately intend to have their work played by real musicians, but which provides an exceptional approximation of their intents without fucking around for days in a DAW to achieve the same result (depending on the complexity of the music).

I'm writing a medium length concert work at present and Staffpad allows me to realize stuff I heard in my head but could never quite achieve using sample libraries and DAWs, at least not without a considerable longer amount of time dedicated to getting the "performance" part down. And for me, that time save is invaluable.


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## Michael Antrum

There was a survey not so long back from Steinberg asking questions purely about the integration between Dorico & Cubase. I hope this means they are going to more tightly integrate them - I mean it's got to be on the cards.

There is also a package called Overture, which I understand is remarkably written by a single person, that tries to straddle the DAW/Notation program divide, but I've never used it. 

I have also heard whispers that there is a big update fro Notion for IOS on the way - which will be interesting if true.

It will be interesting to see what crops up in the future, but I take great hope that notation based composition seems to be getting some serious developer attention, after what feels like years of finale/sibelius stagnation......


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## Woodie1972

I took part in the survey by Steinberg, but I'm afraid that with 100 people taking part in it you will get 100 different answers and preferations, not to speak of the probably thousands of people who took the time to do the survey and all sent their hints and tips to Steinberg. Of course the survey was designed in a specific way so the people at Steinberg wouldn't get overwhelmed by all the answers, but still it is a hell of a job to filter everything and transfer it to a working (beta)version of the two programs, be it a hybrid of the two, or both programs 'talking' to each other. 
I think the technology is there nowadays, with all the powerful computers, servers and libraries out there, to make this come true. 

Anyway, I use Staffpad for quick sketching when I only have my laptop with me; all my composing is in either Dorico (concert works), or Cubase (media).
In Cubase I tend to write in the score editor, which is pretty decent for a DAW, where the piano roll is used for more in depth editing. As classical trained composer I heavily rely on a score instead of a piano roll, that's why I do it that way.

I hear good things about Noteperformer, but as you can only use the included libraries, which do a nice job, but won't give the same results as the major libraries, once you tweaked everything.


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## Vlzmusic

Both DAW production, and notation playback existed since the dawn of mankind. Like the late 1980ies. After the sampling libraries boom, DAW took the crown of being able of "highly realistic" music output, specially in the orchestral realm. Notation programs were indeed on the defensive, for various reasons.

Decades later, when Noteperfomer started to score some points with the young, many started questioning their fate, realizing that DAW domination was not gods intention, but rather a number of circumstances brought together, which resulted in notation playback software trailing behind for all these years.

All Staffpad does - is winning back some more ground, following the first holes Noteperfomer did in the status quo. Its only natural to see people feel uneasy with their firm believes being questioned. But time heals everything. Don`t afraid, and embrace the world in which notation software can work well, sound cool, and set free from lines of code written in 1993.


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## jonathanparham

Vlzmusic said:


> Both DAW production, and notation playback existed since the dawn of mankind. Like the late 1980ies. After the sampling libraries boom, DAW took the crown of being able of "highly realistic" music output, specially in the orchestral realm. Notation programs were indeed on the defensive, for various reasons.
> 
> Decades later, when Noteperfomer started to score some points with the young, many started questioning their fate, realizing that DAW domination was not gods intention, but rather a number of circumstances brought together, which resulted in notation playback software trailing behind for all these years.
> 
> All Staffpad does - is winning back some more ground, following the first holes Noteperfomer did in the status quo. Its only natural to see people feel uneasy with their firm believes being questioned. But time heals everything. Don`t afraid, and embrace the world in which notation software can work well, sound cool, and set free from lines of code written in 1993.


That's some sermon lol


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## colony nofi

dcoscina said:


> I'm writing a medium length concert work at present and Staffpad allows me to realize stuff I heard in my head but could never quite achieve using sample libraries and DAWs, at least not without a considerable longer amount of time dedicated to getting the "performance" part down. And for me, that time save is invaluable.



For sure! 
I'm writing a piece for real-time augmented string quintet at the moment, and i think even there a Staffpad workflow might have suited me better than the current nuendo/dorico arrangement.

The players I work with all have ipad pro's to read from during rehearsals and performances. (Indeed, our main local chamber orchestra also has adopted this workflow which has meant others are following!). I'm particularly excited about the potential of being able to make really quick changes during rehearsals and having them propagate out to the players on their ipads as we go - as well as getting the written notes back that players make on their scores. It all helps the composer. 
(When on paper, I make a note of taking photos of the players scores at the end of rehearsal periods to learn what markings (and why) they have added to my scores - which are often prepared by someone else for time sake!).

This kind of thing is going to be far more possible within many more workflows very soon. Devs at Dorico (who I respect greatly!) are all over the possibilities - especially figuring out a way to interact with a "reader app" for players. They are focussed on the desktop app for now (its incredible the quality of scores they are producing) but they're not blind to where things are going.

I end up crossing quite a few workflow "worlds" - and staffpad looks like being quite the excellent addition to one's toolset. Something that really does alter workflow and offer the possibility of opening up new creative workflows and really assisting composition in interesting ways.


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## jonathanparham

colony nofi said:


> For sure!
> I'm writing a piece for real-time augmented string quintet at the moment, and i think even there a Staffpad workflow might have suited me better than the current nuendo/dorico arrangement.
> 
> The players I work with all have ipad pro's to read from during rehearsals and performances. (Indeed, our main local chamber orchestra also has adopted this workflow which has meant others are following!). I'm particularly excited about the potential of being able to make really quick changes during rehearsals and having them propagate out to the players on their ipads as we go - as well as getting the written notes back that players make on their scores. It all helps the composer.
> (When on paper, I make a note of taking photos of the players scores at the end of rehearsal periods to learn what markings (and why) they have added to my scores - which are often prepared by someone else for time sake!).



That seems right up the Staffpad reader alley.



colony nofi said:


> This kind of thing is going to be far more possible within many more workflows very soon. Devs at Dorico (who I respect greatly!) are all over the possibilities - especially figuring out a way to interact with a "reader app" for players. They are focussed on the desktop app for now (its incredible the quality of scores they are producing) but they're not blind to where things are going.
> 
> I end up crossing quite a few workflow "worlds" - and staffpad looks like being quite the excellent addition to one's toolset. Something that really does alter workflow and offer the possibility of opening up new creative workflows and really assisting composition in interesting ways.


Both of you are commenting on the 'live' playing aspect that DAWs sometimes miss depending on complexity. However, I also think there's the 'mock-up' time-saving possibilities as well. As others have mentioned, currently with limited library choices, but in Staffpad, you could skip the programming aspects and go right to your mixing and mastering process.

Back to the OP, I think I'd be game if the DAW makers had something like staffpad where I could 'write' on the score in addition to the piano roll and hear with the current samples loaded. IN the mean time, I'd love more developers to have a deal where when you purchase the desktop library you can get the Staffpad addon for a cheaper deal as part of a package. So say you buy Heaviocty NOVO strings, you could get the NOVO staffpad version with it.


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## SimonCharlesHanna

jonathanparham said:


> Back to the OP, I think I'd be game if the DAW makers had something like staffpad where I could 'write' on the score in addition to the piano roll and hear with the current samples loaded.


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## jonathanparham

SimonCharlesHanna said:


>


lol thanks for the affirmation and I love that show.


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## J.T.

Juanki said:


> This is a mockup for stravinsky write in Staffpad:



Does Staffpad allow you to adjust how the bassoon plays those grace notes?

TIA


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## J.T.

Ivan M. said:


> @berlin87
> Yes! I'm so tired of tinkering with libraries, and keyswitches, and CCs, and timings, and envelopes, and articulations, and tracks, and items, and more tracks... I spend way more time producing, than composing. It completelly kills my will to create anything.



Problem numero uno.


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## J.T.

Does Staffpad output stems?


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## Saxer

J.T. said:


> Does Staffpad output stems?


Only via workaround: mute the other sections


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## J.T.

One day you'll be able to place a suction pod on your temple and it will wirelessly send your notation directives to your iPhone, from which you'll be able to print out your perfectly engraved score and parts, and listen to the score playback from a very high grade technology that renders a flawless orchestral performance. But with the way 2020 is going so far, I’m guessing it won't be this year.


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## Saxer

J.T. said:


> One day you'll be able to place a suction pod on your temple and it will wirelessly send your notation directives to your iPhone, from which you'll be able to print out your perfectly engraved score and parts, and listen to the score playback from a very high grade technology that renders a flawless orchestral performance. But with the way 2020 is going so far, I’m guessing it won't be this year.


That's right!

But as always: the easier it is to mockup orchestras the less people want to hear more of it. Successfull creativity is always on the off beaten path.


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## jonnybutter

Michael Antrum said:


> I think you are a little confused about what Staffpad is actually for. It is not trying to replace or be a traditional DAW or engraving application.
> 
> It is a composition tool.



I just got Staffpad a couple of days ago, and am still getting used to it. It may take a while! After 50+ years with paper and pencil, old (slovenly!) writing habits die hard. But I know I will love it once I get the hang of it. 

Someday, capabilities like this will likely be just another part of DAWs - notation being one of multiple ways to input music. But as it is now, it doesn't come near replacing a DAW. I'm not planning on getting the add-on libraries. As Michael and others say, it's a compositional tool, not a mock up tool (at least for stuff I write). I love the idea of sketching anywhere I happen to be and being able to try different things quickly without getting covered in eraser dust!


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## NoamL

bryla said:


> And here I’m moving back to pen and paper these days.







Eric G said:


> The fact that I show MIDI output to any of the classical composers (or even 20th century modern composers such John Williams) and they wouldn't have a clue speaks volumes.



That kind of underlines why StaffPad/NotePerformer/etc. is the worst of both worlds. John Williams wouldn't use StaffPad any more than he would use Logic. He doesn't need to hear a mockup.

For those who do need mockups either as part of their own creative process or to get cues approved, StaffPad & NotePerformer just don't reach the level of professional use _and that is if_ you have a traditional symphonic score with traditional recording techniques and no production elements... that's few scores...

I think there is a niche for *notation based DAWs* to take over the future, but StaffPad/NotePerformer are not close to being DAWs. Seems more likely that the gap will be bridged from the other side with Cuborico (Doribase?)


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## Eric G

NoamL said:


> For those who do need mockups either as part of their own creative process or to get cues approved, StaffPad & NotePerformer just don't reach the level of professional use _and that is if_ you have a traditional symphonic score with traditional recording techniques and no production elements... that's few scores...
> 
> I think there is a niche for *notation based DAWs* to take over the future, but StaffPad/NotePerformer are not close to being DAWs. Seems more likely that the gap will be bridged from the other side with Cuborico (Doribase?)



Hi NoamL,

If you show John Williams MIDI, he is not going to understand it. Show him notation (i.e. from a StaffPad Screen) and we can have a conversation. Same thing for Logic's notation screen. Its the language of music. Not MIDI.

BTW, Have you tried to use Dorico today with a full orchestra sample library template? I have in December 2019. My 64GB 16 Core Threadripper drops to its knees. IT.DOES.NOT.WORK. PERIOD. And I wanted it to work SO BAD. And then StaffPAD came out with their release in late January.

Doricobase is much further away than StaffPad (Lightyears). And Cuborico. Laughable.

AS I STATED, DAWS will not be eliminated due to MIXING and MASTERING workflows. And composers that can play the piano, I don't see how StaffPad is better. So I don't see the problem with my post.


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## Michael Antrum

NoamL said:


> For those who do need mockups either as part of their own creative process or to get cues approved, StaffPad & NotePerformer just don't reach the level of professional use ......



I use Staffpad and it's become a cornerstone of my workflow. I really don't get what you are saying.

I write in Staffpad, and then either into Dorico or Cubase as/if required.

It saves me from going to paper and then having to input it all again in Dorico, and then discover I have made a few errors and need to write out large sections again. 

I can sit in the garden / restaurant / airplane seat / house of ill repute / beach (don't tell the police) etc......I can get out and away from my desk - hurrah ! I can try out ideas and get instant feedback of how it works. All from a square of glass held in one hand.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understood even JW composes at the piano ?

I'm stuck in a hotel in Edinburgh tonight, and all I had to bring with me was my ipad + pencil, then I can get comfy on the extremely swish hotel bed and I'm sorted for the evening....



Eric G said:


> AS I STATED, DAWS will not be eliminated due to MIXING and MASTERING workflows. And composers that can play the piano, I don't see how StaffPad is better. So I don't see the problem with my post.



I'm a pianist (in fact I've often been called a coomplete and utter pianist), but the fact remains that I don't always have a piano on me, and even when I do, I would have had a scorepad on the piano. Now I have an ipad there instead.

Staffpad is a great tool, it's not perfect by a long chalk, and it's certainly not for everyone. But it was never intended to be DAW, nor an engraving program. But to say it's not a professional tool, I think, is wrong. (even though I'm not a professional).


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## bill stokes

Most of my work is notation-based. I'm using Sibelius 7.5 with NotePerformer plugin. Also using Logic and a large dog's breakfast of samples.
I really like NotePerformer for Orchestral stuff. Does it sound like the Boston Symphony? No. Neither do the virtual orchestras. I'll try linking to a short piece I wrote for strings and a few wind instruments.
I want to record this (and a bunch of other music) with a good ensemble, in a good room. Tough to put that together. Expensive too.
NotePerformer playback.

In reply to the original post, I hope the technology keeps getting better. I'm one of the young people (65 yo) who jumped on this boat.
p.s. Sorry to blather on about NotePerformer in a thread about Staffpad. Some of those samples were gorgeous, by the way.


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## Eric G

Michael Antrum said:


> I'm a pianist (in fact I've often been called a coomplete and utter pianist), but the fact remains that I don't always have a piano on me, and even when I do, I would have had a scorepad on the piano. Now I have an ipad there instead.
> 
> Staffpad is a great tool, it's not perfect by a long chalk, and it's certainly not for everyone. But it was never intended to be DAW, nor an engraving program. But to say it's not a professional tool, I think, is wrong. (even though I'm not a professional).



I stand corrected  . My point was trying to be fair because many professional composers do composition at the piano/keyboard with the DAW connected to it translating it to MIDI. So it is much easier for them to "play in" their ideas into the DAW and MIDI. And writing notation can slow them down.

I am not a keyboardist so writing notation has always been my natural go to. Sibelius and Dorico with keyboard input is cumbersome IMHO. I would prefer to write notation. Therefore StaffPad is better for MY personal workflow.


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## NoamL

Michael Antrum said:


> I use Staffpad and it's become a cornerstone of my workflow. I really don't get what you are saying.
> 
> I write in Staffpad, and then either into Dorico or Cubase as/if required.


I hadn't considered the workflow of using Staffpad as a sketch pad before bringing the MIDI into Cubase. Interesting.



Eric G said:


> If you show John Williams MIDI, he is not going to understand it. Show him notation (i.e. from a StaffPad Screen) and we can have a conversation. Same thing for Logic's notation screen. Its the language of music. Not MIDI.




I am classically trained, you don't have to convince me that sheet music is better than MIDI, the problem is, cues do not get approved without a MIDI mockup anymore.


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## Michael Antrum

Eric G said:


> I stand corrected  . My point was trying to be fair because many professional composers do composition at the piano/keyboard with the DAW connected to it translating it to MIDI. So it is much easier for them to "play in" their ideas into the DAW and MIDI. And writing notation can slow them down.



Absolutely agree with you that this is the most popular route, but I'm guessing this is because many people arent all that comfortable writing in notation, and also because many people write 'to the samples'. (Not that here's anything wrong with that - It's just a different, as far as I can see, more popular way of working).

Personally, I'm not good enough to keep track of all the different instrument voices in my head, so thats why Staffpad is such a great method for me.

Also, I'm studying orchestration and Staffpad is a great tool for learning. (The more I learn the more I realise I need to learn !).


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## Eric G

Michael Antrum said:


> Absolutely agree with you that this is the most popular route, but I'm guessing this is because many people arent all that comfortable writing in notation, and also because many people write 'to the samples'. (Not that here's anything wrong with that - It's just a different, as far as I can see, more popular way of working).
> 
> Personally, I'm not good enough to keep track of all the different instrument voices in my head, so thats why Staffpad is such a great method for me.
> 
> Also, I'm studying orchestration and Staffpad is a great tool for learning. (The more I learn the more I realise I need to learn !).



Exactly. And also I was writing to my MIDI/Keyboard skills. I am much more creative now.


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## Bollen

For me the last 20 years have been a roller coaster! I started professionally in the mid to late 90s mostly as an arranger. A Big Band arrangement used to take me about three months, mostly just making the parts! 

Then in 2005 I was introduced to Finale and I loved how it cut my work time from a couple of months to a couple of hours (producing the parts that is...). I still composed/wrote by hand. A year later someone introduced me to Sibelius and I found it much easier to write in so I moved, although I still wrote the core of the work (main score) by hand.

Around 2007 I got my first film commission, to my surprise the director wanted not the charts but the actual music! 😱. The budget was nowhere near enough for me to hire an orchestra, but it was more than enough for me to buy a PC, a DAW and every library I needed for the project. At this point I started to write exclusively on Sibelius and then dump the MIDI on to Cubase for mixing, mastering and polishing playback. However, I continued to write my more "creative" works by hand, at least the sketches.

In 2015 I was introduce to Staffpad, I loved it straight away because importing the XML in Sibelius was much faster than copying (my terrible handwriting) into Sibelius manually. So now the workflow was Staffpad (sketch) > Sibelius (parts and sync) > Cubase (mockup & production).

Finally last year, after playing around with Dorico for over a year, I made the transition. And now I do 90% of my work there. No more DAWs, no more paper, no more file transfer... I'm a happy camper ! I only ever use Staffpad when I'm away or travelling and since the lockdown, not once...

What a couple of decades! 😜


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