# Has the age of the NotaDAW arrived?



## rudi (Jul 31, 2021)

When writing music I prefer to use notation. For me, one of the major facility missing from existing DAWs and notation programs is an integrated view that includes _*both *_notation _*and*_ MIDI lanes so you can edit them on same screen. Currently you have to switch from the notation view to a piano-roll view in order to achieve that (Notion has something a little bit similar, but it is clumsy and doesn't include CC editing).

Staffpad is the closest at integrating both with its elegant interface. But it comes with certain limitations: the need for a touchscreen and stylus i (quite expensive in the case of Apple hardware) plus the need of using custom-made versions of various libraries. This makes for great integration and high quality rendering, but it doesn't allow you to use your libraries or effects. It also forces you into a certain way of notation input.

With the arrival of Dorico for iPad it looks like an increasing convergence between DAW and notation views is going mainstream (see screenshot below). It's something I have been waiting for a long time. The Dorico team have indicated that this notation-DAW view will be extended to include CCs, and back-ported to the main Dorico app on the desktop.






To me it signals the arrival of an integrated notation-DAW way to work with music, something I hope catches-on with other developers.

What do you think?


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## Heinigoldstein (Jul 31, 2021)

You can do this in Logic since its beginning actually. Just combine the editors you want, link them, lock screen set and viola ! I work like this for over 30 years. 
or do I get something wrong ?


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## nilblo (Jul 31, 2021)

I´ve been around since Atari with Notator days and I mostly put my musical ideas down with pen and paper. I have Staffpad but don´t use it that much. For jotting down some "inspired moments" when on the move - it´s useful for me. For digging down in orchestration, I´m using Dorico on PC. I´m dreaming of Handwriting music In Dorico... That way I can choose whatever libraries I want. (Mostly VSL..)


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## d.healey (Jul 31, 2021)

Reaper has this, Notion had a MIDI editing system (haven't looked at it for years so don't know what stage it's at). Muse sequencer can do this, Overture as well. Musescore has DAW like features planned for a future release.


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## rudi (Jul 31, 2021)

Heinigoldstein said:


> You can do this in Logic since its beginning actually. Just combine the editors you want, link them, lock screen set and viola ! I work like this for over 30 years.
> or do I get something wrong ?


Thanks!
Sorry I should have specified I am on a PC... 
That sounds ideal - as I don't have Logic, I looked at various screen shots / videos of Logic X Pro. They always seem to only display lanes CCs lanes with the piano roll editor, hence my confusion.

Update: I've found a video that shows what's possible in Logic... very cool:


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## rudi (Jul 31, 2021)

d.healey said:


> Reaper has this, Notion had a MIDI editing system (haven't looked at it for years so don't know what stage it's at). Muse sequencer can do this, Overture as well. Musescore has DAW like features planned for a future release.


In REAPER when I switch from piano-roll view to score view, the MIDI lanes disappear. Is there a way to have both on at the same time?

Notion has a basic "sequencer" view which superimposes a horizontal bar over the score notes. It lets you adjust the length. You can also or increase or decrease the velocity by either typing new values or using keyboard shortcuts, but it is slow and clumsy especially if you want to adjust notes individually. Re CCs it lets you record them but you cannot hear the changes in real time. Once recorded you cannot edit the CCs, re-record them (also without hearing the changes). It's been one of the top request for several years now.. but not a peep from the Presonus team.

I have very high hopes for Musecore 4 - it looks like they are integrating DAW facilities, but from their mockup UI screenshots it looks like the MIDI will only be editable in a piano roll view.

I had high hopes for Overture too, but the fact it relies on a single developer who has his idiosyncratic approach put me off.


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## d.healey (Jul 31, 2021)

rudi said:


> In REAPER when I switch from piano-roll view to score view, the MIDI lanes disappear. Is there a way to have both on at the same time?


I haven't used it for a while but I think there is a setting that lets you display two MIDI editor windows at once and you can have one set to score and one set to piano roll.


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## rudi (Jul 31, 2021)

d.healey said:


> I haven't used it for a while but I think there is a setting that lets you display two MIDI editor windows at once and you can have one set to score and one set to piano roll.


Thanks David - after much searching I found a MIDI editor settings under preferences that lets you open individual items or tracks in their own editor, or use a single editor per project. I have tried several of the options but they all seem to default to a single editor even when the option is not selected. I'll have to do more looking into it (the joys of REAPER!)


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## gyprock (Jul 31, 2021)

I think there’s a fundamental difference between DAW programs adding notation capability vs Notation programs adding DAW capability. They start from different strengths and service different purposes. As an example, Studio One is focussing on the former and Dorico the latter. This comes from the collaboration of Presonus/Notion and Cubase/Dorico. There will be others of course, such as StaffPad/Musescore and people’s preferences will ultimately align with what they are familiar with and how they compose.


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## rudi (Jul 31, 2021)

gyprock said:


> I think there’s a fundamental difference between DAW programs adding notation capability vs Notation programs adding DAW capability. They start from different strengths and service different purposes. As an example, Studio One is focussing on the former and Dorico the latter. This comes from the collaboration of Presonus/Notion and Cubase/Dorico. There will be others of course, such as StaffPad/Musescore and people’s preferences will ultimately align with what they are familiar with and how they compose.


These are my feelings too. Those products are build from a certain perspective and are gradually blending in the new capabilities. What I found promising with Dorico on iPad, was how integrated into the workflow it feels (and even more so once they include CC lanes).

Of course Staffpad and Logic already offer that kind of facility; Staffpad because it was designed in that way from the start; Logic because of its long antecedents and roots back to the Atari days. I wish they hadn't abandoned the PC market once they became part of Apple 

The future is looking promising for those who work with notation as their primary method of composing!


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## Saxer (Jul 31, 2021)

The notation of Logic isn't really comfortable but usable. I used it over decades for all kinds of arrangements (big band, lead sheet, orchestra, band...). Meanwhile I switched to Dorico because of the automatic engraving features.

But even in Logic I there was always a point where I splitted a project into a notation and an audio version. Both are still very different tasks. Microtiming against accurate notation, comping slash notation against recorded comping (chord symbols, drum-slashes with accents), different articulation tracks against single line notation, stacking libraries, short notes against longer notes with stacc-articulations, triplet swing feel against even 8th notation... there are tons of little things that destroy either the notation or the audio when editing. Even in the same application. 

Neither StaffPad nor Noteperformer are a solution for all that problems. They just are the best we have. A lot of things sound great but both apps are not able to replace a DAW. Especially when it comes to anything else but standard orchestral... hybrid, sound design, jazz, pop, world instruments, additional audio tracks, efx, strumming engines, arps, mixing... all part of todays composing process.


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## ptram (Jul 31, 2021)

rudi said:


> With the arrival of Dorico for iPad it looks like an increasing convergence between DAW and notation views is going mainstream


While the new integration between score and piano roll in Dorico 4 is great, please remember that you can already keep two windows open, and have different views in each of them.

Paolo


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## Bollen (Jul 31, 2021)

Besides what others have pointed out i.e. this has existed for a while, most prominently in Overture (that piece of sh*t software developed by that arse****). But can Dorico not do this now? If I'm not mistaken you can put tabs vertically and then use P (play from selection) to line everything up?


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## ptram (Jul 31, 2021)

Saxer said:


> there was always a point where I splitted a project into a notation and an audio version. Both are still very different tasks. Microtiming against accurate notation, comping slash notation against recorded comping (chord symbols, drum-slashes with accents), different articulation tracks against single line notation, stacking libraries, short notes against longer notes with stacc-articulations, triplet swing feel against even 8th notation...


I don't know if everything you list can be done in Dorico, but most of it can, with the shown notation separated by the MIDI stream.

For the most extreme situations I went back to the idea of separate tracks. The shown score (not playing), and the playing staves, shown in a smaller size and hidden from the final Full Score layout.

Paolo


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## cygnusdei (Jul 31, 2021)

Coming from a non-DAW guy: I thought the idea of DAW was that you could do fancy things like 'quantization' or 'off-grid shifts' or 'velocity scaling'? If the MIDI/DAW part is just a representation of the notation part, then it's not very useful, is it?


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## rudi (Jul 31, 2021)

@ptram, @Bollen I am still on Dorico Pro 3, waiting for 4 to be released. I had a look through the documentation, but I can't find a way to have the score with the MIDI underneath


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## thesteelydane (Jul 31, 2021)

The way I see it, the problem with DAWs with notation capabilities is that they interpret the midi into notation, and that means you almost always have to faff about with it. It’s also designed for inputting midi, and then later look at the notation. And they usually have poor steptime input features, whereas notation programs excel at this by design. What we need is something that works in the opposite direction, notation first, and then you can perhaps record over an unquantised midi performance without messing up the notation. From what I understand this is the direction Dorico is going in, which is very exciting. 

I have only used Logic and it’s notation for what it’s worth, but I think all DAWs with notation feature function in roughly the same way. It’s usable, but there’s too much faffing about required


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## cygnusdei (Jul 31, 2021)

thesteelydane said:


> notation first, and then you can perhaps record over an unquantised midi performance without messing up the notation


Sibelius has had this feature since days of yore


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## rudi (Jul 31, 2021)

cygnusdei said:


> Coming from a non-DAW guy: I thought the idea of DAW was that you could do fancy things like 'quantization' or 'off-grid shifts' or 'velocity scaling'? If the MIDI/DAW part is just a representation of the notation part, then it's not very useful, is it?


Actually the great thing about this new view is that you can adjust the MIDI independently of the notation, e.g you can move a note or notes in time, start point, end point, and duration, and still retain the original notation in the score part of the view:


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## rudi (Jul 31, 2021)

There is also a way to edit velocity with some nifty tools, including a histogram view to change the velocity distribution:


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## cygnusdei (Jul 31, 2021)

rudi said:


> Actually the great thing about this new view is that you can adjust the MIDI independently of the notation, e.g you can move a note or notes in time, start point, end point, and duration, and still retain the original notation in the score part of the view:



Okay, I guess it makes sense to have an alternative visual as an aid for the refinement of sound parameters - especially for people who are used to DAW. And it would make sense for the company to expand their market share in the sector.


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## ptram (Jul 31, 2021)

rudi said:


> I had a look through the documentation, but I can't find a way to have the score with the MIDI underneath


It is not a Dorico thing, but a Mac thing. I wouldn't know if and how this could be done on Windows.

You just open a document, and then open a second window on it by choosing the Window > New Window command. Then, you choose the Write view in one, and the Play view in the other one.

The windows can then be positioned as you like. If you want them to immediately jump to the two halves of the display (either horizontally or vertically), you can use an utility like Tiles.

Paolo


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## ptram (Jul 31, 2021)

rudi said:


> Actually the great thing about this new view is that you can adjust the MIDI independently of the notation


While the piano roll in the same window as the score is new, being able to edit MID independently of the notation is what Dorico has been doing since the very beginning.

Paolo


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## rudi (Jul 31, 2021)

ptram said:


> It is not a Dorico thing, but a Mac thing. I wouldn't know if and how this could be done on Windows.
> 
> You just open a document, and then open a second window on it by choosing the Window > New Window command. Then, you choose the Write view in one, and the Play view in the other one.
> 
> ...


Wow! I didn't know you could do that in Dorico. I used the Windows > New Window command, and it creates a second floating window linked to the first one. There is a snap and a stack facility in Windows 10, but neither does quite the right tiling, but I can live with that until Dorico 4 arrives.
Thanks for the tip Paolo!


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## cygnusdei (Jul 31, 2021)

(too much free time ...)


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## Bollen (Aug 2, 2021)

rudi said:


> @ptram, @Bollen I am still on Dorico Pro 3, waiting for 4 to be released. I had a look through the documentation, but I can't find a way to have the score with the MIDI underneath


So yeah sorry, I thought it was possible with the Window > Horizontal Split, but it's only possible with the same mode. I see @ptram has already answered this, but just wanted to add that this how I've been using it from the beginning but on Windows. The only difference is that I use it on different screens: one in portrait for the score and another one (normal landscape) for the Play window.


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## youngpokie (Aug 2, 2021)

ptram said:


> It is not a Dorico thing, but a Mac thing. I wouldn't know if and how this could be done on Windows.


Yes it can be done on Windows - and thank for the tip! Perhaps you know also how to get a Mixer and Transport window positions to be remembered in the document? I have to manually open them every time and move them to another screen, but I'm not sure how to tell Dorico to remember this...


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## ptram (Aug 2, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> Perhaps you know also how to get a Mixer and Transport window positions to be remembered in the document?


Alas, no. To be true, in my Mac the Mixer window disappear when you switch to a different app, or to a player edit window. If you click in the score, the Mixer magically reappears!

Paolo


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## mducharme (Aug 2, 2021)

The play mode in the Dorico iPad version is actually a lot closer to Cubase than it is the older versions of Dorico, which is very promising. If these enhancements are brought to Dorico 4, and we see more of the Cubase-style shaping tools brought into Dorico 4, it might become possible to compose music that won't be performed outside the Dorico playback without feeling as though you are missing out on Cubase features.


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## Bollen (Aug 2, 2021)

mducharme said:


> The play mode in the Dorico iPad version is actually a lot closer to Cubase than it is the older versions of Dorico, which is very promising. If these enhancements are brought to Dorico 4, and we see more of the Cubase-style shaping tools brought into Dorico 4, it might become possible to compose even music that won't be performed inside Dorico without feeling as though you are missing out on Cubase features.


Let's hope so... I am still worried that the scrolling will still be screwed up...


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## rudi (Aug 3, 2021)

mducharme said:


> The play mode in the Dorico iPad version is actually a lot closer to Cubase than it is the older versions of Dorico, which is very promising. If these enhancements are brought to Dorico 4, and we see more of the Cubase-style shaping tools brought into Dorico 4, it might become possible to compose music that won't be performed outside the Dorico playback without feeling as though you are missing out on Cubase features.


I believe Daniel Spreadbury mentioned that those facilities will be back-ported to Dorico 4 - I tried to find his post again, but there is such a huge volume of posts on the Dorico forum about the iPad version I couldn't locate it again.


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