# Monastery REVISED VERSION (Vienna choir)



## Guy Bacos (Mar 24, 2010)

Here is my first piece with the Vienna choir. An epic trailer type and Gloria, of very upbeat tempos and dramatic in style will follow in the next days, to give a better idea of the lib overall.


http://www.guybacos.com/audio/Choir%20demo.mp3 (Monastery Garden)

Comments are welcomed,

Guy


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## José Herring (Mar 24, 2010)

*Re: Monastery Garden (Vienna choir)*

The composition demonstrates some good writing, but the choir just can't handle it. The men especially sound so synthetic that it's just marginally better than my old Korg o1w/fd keyboard. 

Good legato and dynamics though. But the overall sound just isn't making it. I do hope you get a group of 4 singers together and do this piece as a vocal quartet. I think it would be worth it.

best,

Jose


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## Guy Bacos (Mar 24, 2010)

*Re: Monastery Garden (Vienna choir)*

Thanks for your comment Jose, indeed I see there are some things I could do better in the men's parts. There is always a learning curve to do things good.

Will fix and re-mix, stay tuned!


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## requiem_aeternam7 (Mar 24, 2010)

*Re: Monastery Garden (Vienna choir)*

Huh? I don't hear anything epic. I hear some sort of 4 part choir only renaissance sounding piece. Very nice composition but the choir tone is not convincing at all I'm afraid! Yuck!


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## Guy Bacos (Mar 24, 2010)

*Re: Monastery -new mix (Vienna choir)*

I've posted a new mix. (same link)


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## requiem_aeternam7 (Mar 24, 2010)

*Re: Monastery -new mix (Vienna choir)*



Guy Bacos @ Wed Mar 24 said:


> I've posted a new mix. (same link)


 oh sorry the epic stuff you were referring to is a piece you will post in a few days I believe you said whereas this one is just a choir only. 
Very beautiful piece...very nice writing. But the choir tone is just starting to disappoint me, the attacks are synthy and the tone just lacks detail. Hmph.


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## Guy Bacos (Mar 24, 2010)

*Re: Monastery -new mix (Vienna choir)*



requiem_aeternam7 @ Thu Mar 25 said:


> Guy Bacos @ Wed Mar 24 said:
> 
> 
> > I've posted a new mix. (same link)
> ...



Could be the demo maker who's not doing a good job. 

Will have other types of demos soon.


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## requiem_aeternam7 (Mar 24, 2010)

*Re: Monastery -new mix (Vienna choir)*



Guy Bacos @ Wed Mar 24 said:


> requiem_aeternam7 @ Thu Mar 25 said:
> 
> 
> > Guy Bacos @ Wed Mar 24 said:
> ...



Nah man, you're one of the best. Everyone who's been around samples longer than a month knows that...I still have faith in the variety of patches like those big staccatos I heard in the Herb sample and such...did you use any vibrato patches for this one? Jay Bacal was saying that there's vibrato ones etc...just curious


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Mar 24, 2010)

*Re: Monastery -new mix (Vienna choir)*



Guy Bacos @ Wed Mar 24 said:


> requiem_aeternam7 @ Thu Mar 25 said:
> 
> 
> > Guy Bacos @ Wed Mar 24 said:
> ...



There's nothing wrong with the tone, but the attacks are a bit synthy. Still, are you expecting this to sound 100%? No choir lib sounds 100% (that can do stuff like this)

And no EWSC is not 100%.


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## Daniel James (Mar 25, 2010)

I agree with the above statements that the attacks at present seem a bit synthy. 

Guy would you be able to post demos with perhaps some slower moving passages, it sounds like the the library has trouble with the faster lines.

Nice composition though :D

Dan


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## Markus S (Mar 25, 2010)

*Re: Monastery -new mix (Vienna choir)*

Thank you for posting!

The tone is really very beautiful, the transitions and phrasings so far not 100% convincing. The attacks are too slow for fast passages, especially as there is an ornament in the main motive. The phrasings don't seem to be bound together and a bit lifeless, maybe with more cross-fade on the whole phrase it would work better? Nevertheless it's of course 100% exposed, so you hear every detail, I think it sounds really nice, curious to hear more, especially how "powerful" the choir can be! 

Beautiful composition, though!


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## Lex (Mar 25, 2010)

*Re: Monastery -new mix (Vienna choir)*

yeah....this sounds exactly like old VSL sopranos...great tone, nice legato, but super limited...
This track sounds like a great example of what this lib CANT do, not even close..

Question...is it all just soft vowels? What about round robin? What about consonants?


aLex


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## Guy Bacos (Mar 25, 2010)

*Re: Monastery -new mix (Vienna choir)*

Thanks everyone for your comments! 

I think part of the problem is, in my mind I wanted to do it all in Oooos and too often with slow attacks, which perhaps was not a good idea for a lengthy passage in mostly quarter notes, which is why the attacks may seem week due to the repetitiveness of it. So could be bad programming on my part, I'm still on the learning curve.  

I think I can easily fix the attacks though, will have another mix soon.

requiem_aeternam7, Yes, I used regularly he expression patches or vibrato tones, you would probably see the difference more if I wasn't using them, it does make a big difference I find.

I'd be happy to demonstrate any requests. But a ton of demos will follow. I will also demonstrate what I think some people will find very handy, the full choir patch, a very quick way of putting a choir part together with a single patch.


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## dcoscina (Mar 25, 2010)

Hey Guy, nice composition. I also like the tone of the choir but those 16 note phrases are too revealing that it's a sample library. If I didn't own a choir library already, I probably would go for this though. I like VSL stuff (have a ton of their libs) and this is pretty consistent with their general sound and quality. I think, like any sample library, we have to write to the strengths of it, much like writing for an instrumentalist. As you become more acquainted with this library, you will undoubtedly provide even more convincing demos.


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## Guy Bacos (Mar 25, 2010)

*Re: Monastery -new mix (Vienna choir)*

Thanks dcoscina. I think one of the homework here is to become more and more sensitive to how real human voice sing and attack notes. No different than my process with the VSL strings or any other instrument. The tools are there to make it sound great, I just need a bit of trial and error demo time. I think the next version of this piece will be already much better. I've disabled the link for now.


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## Guy Bacos (Mar 25, 2010)

Once again a did a few modification. I think this version is much better.


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## requiem_aeternam7 (Mar 25, 2010)

Guy Bacos @ Thu Mar 25 said:


> Once again a did a few modification. I think this version is much better.



I must admit, that tricky fast turn/phrase now sounds MUCH more natural and realistic. Still not sure if it's good enough to warrant 1300$ BUT I must say this sounds much better and more realistic...the attacks are still for some reason synthy in particular as someone else mentioned (Jose I think?) in the lower registers i.e. basses/baritones.


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## requiem_aeternam7 (Mar 25, 2010)

by the way is it just me or am I hearing breathing noises after long passages/phrases as the singers breath in fresh air? That's pretty neat if I'm hearing it correctly...


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## Guy Bacos (Mar 25, 2010)

Yes, there are breathings for each section, you could place them where you want, yeah it's pretty cool. And from what I hear, there are breaths from the nose and the mouth.  I chose from the nose.

I will post another version, to improve the men even more.


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## Guy Bacos (Mar 25, 2010)

Just posted a new version.


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## dannthr (Mar 25, 2010)

Hey Guy,

So... with respect to the breaths. One of the most challenging aspects of programming virtual instruments (any instrument) but is most crucial when programming the human voice is phrasing. Performance phrasing.

You want to think of each statement or phrasing of a melodic line or harmonic line as something with a beginning, middle, and ending.

Organically you want to consider the performer as thinking of this phrase, at the very minimum, as a beginning of breath, middle of breath, and ending of breath. Like a sentence when you speak.

One way to emphasize this phrasing and creating a more natural line is to give the line an expressive arc or flow that moves naturally and incrementally through each of the successive notes.

One of your biggest issues in this particular demo is the harsh and disparate attack of each successive note, most audibly in the tenors.

I would suggest employing, if available, any dynamic crossfade patches and keeping an eye on the legato interval levels (as they should be notably quieter) as you move through your rapid transitions.


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## Guy Bacos (Mar 25, 2010)

Thanks for your comments Dan!

Attacks are better now.

Oh for sure, breathing can be an art of its own, I placed my breathing in places I thought I would need air, but it's just too give an idea.



Keep the comments coming, let me know how you like this latest version.


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## Rob Elliott (Mar 25, 2010)

Personally I like it Guy. There couldn't be a more 'exposed' example of the choir's potential (a Capella *AND *16th notes.) IMHO - there is nothing out there now available (commercially) that would get us even in the ballpark you are playing in on this piece (btw very nice writing.)


I am not sure what everyone's expectations were on a 'performing' choir library but we must keep everything in perspective that the human voice - with its virtually limitless range of expression - is THE most difficult to sample a million times and then subsequently 'perform' (program and piece meal) a live-like performance.

In the context of our orchestral / choral projects delivered - most if not all production houses will think it real. This library will enhance our arrangements / orchestrations IMHO. 

Looking forward to hearing your next demos Guy.


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## Guy Bacos (Mar 25, 2010)

Rob you said it very well, I didn't want to say it myself but it is a fact, my demo is a very challenging A Capella piece for virtual choir, some lib would of probably gone for an epic demo with mainly stacc accents, covered in 3 feet of drums, horns and thick pads.

And I also agree about the most difficult lib to sample. But people will see epic style maybe as early as tonight or tomorrow, I'm presently on it.


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## Craig Sharmat (Mar 25, 2010)

you are fair demo person, very refreshing.


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## germancomponist (Mar 25, 2010)

Guy, about the vibrato: Is it recorded in the samples or do you do it via controller?


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## Guy Bacos (Mar 25, 2010)

It's recorded. You have the option of sus espr, perf leg espr. and trill leg perf espr.


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## Pzy-Clone (Mar 25, 2010)

ah..but can you crossfade (cell xf) the normal vibrato patches with the espr ones, and maybe get some realtime control of the vibrato? Or are the transitions the same sanmples for both, i wonder? hm...

This last version is MUCH better than the first one, but in all honesty i think this is perhaps a bit ambitious for a current choir lib...? 
At least you didnt make it easy on yourself with this piece 

Nice composition, looking forward to more demos of the Choirs soon


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## Guy Bacos (Mar 25, 2010)

Pzy-Clone @ Thu Mar 25 said:


> ah..but can you crossfade (cell xf) the normal vibrato patches with the espr ones, and maybe get some realtime control of the vibrato? Or are the transitions the same sanmples for both, i wonder? hm...



I haven't tried that yet, but I certainly don't see why not.


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## Guy Bacos (Mar 25, 2010)

Craig Sharmat @ Thu Mar 25 said:


> you are fair demo person, very refreshing.



Thanks Craig! I think.


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## requiem_aeternam7 (Mar 25, 2010)

Guy Bacos @ Thu Mar 25 said:


> Craig Sharmat @ Thu Mar 25 said:
> 
> 
> > you are fair demo person, very refreshing.
> ...



I think it's a compliment, I think if I understand correctly he's saying that you're fair to both us potential customers of VSL slash peers in equal measure as to your 'employer' VSL (well employer in the sense that you make demos for them). A normal person might bury the choir underneath a lot of stuff to make it sound extra good but you exposed it brutally with a very dry reverb'd piece and one that uses passages that truly test the choir to its limits rather than something real easy that would have played to the choirs biggest advantages ...so yes I commend you for that as well.


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## Guy Bacos (Mar 25, 2010)

To be honest it didn't cross my mind as I was doing the demo, probably a good thing too. 

Thanks for the clarification.


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## TheoKrueger (Mar 25, 2010)

I really liked this composition, especially the females which sound great IMHO. It's also a good thing to imagine choir sounds in another context as well, how well they would work in the background of an orchestration etc.

Looking forward to the next demos.

Best,
Theo


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## Craig Sharmat (Mar 26, 2010)

Guy Bacos @ Thu Mar 25 said:


> Craig Sharmat @ Thu Mar 25 said:
> 
> 
> > you are fair demo person, very refreshing.
> ...



I relooked at my statement and I realize it could be taken a number of ways. I was making more a comment on your personality, you are obviously better than a fair demo maker.


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## Guy Bacos (Mar 26, 2010)

I appreciate that comment a lot Craig!


I have disabled the link for now, must bring the piece into surgery for more improvements, but you can expect 2 epic trailer demos to be posted within 24 hours.


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## Nino Rajacic (Mar 31, 2010)

Tick... tick....


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