# McCain - Experienced War Hero or Rudderless Bush Wannabe?



## JonFairhurst

You could write a children's book called "McCain's Very, Very Bad Day."

McCain's top economic adviser, Phil Gramm, whines about America being "a nation of whiners.'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBVIwO5n9hk

Gramm also called this a "Mental Recession." McCain says he disagrees, but the record shows that McCain himself has talked about the recession being psychological:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0P6bkbdAkFg

But the biggest futz was McCain's own. Watch him squirm when asked if health insurance companies cover Viagra, but not birth control.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q8obHEULLg

Is that leadership, or a broken rudder? Anybody with principles would say that "of course that's unfair", or "its my policy not to regulate health insurance companies." Anybody with an ethical or moral compass would be able to give a straight-talk answer to this softball question.

General Whatsit: "President McCain, the Russians are ready to attack Chechnya, but there are American citizens there. What should we do?"

President McCain: "I don't know. I have to check my record. I'll... I'll get back to you, um, today... I'll try to get back to you..."


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## Nick Batzdorf

I dunno, Jon. To me this kind of Abeing is just stoopping to the swift boat level, and I don't think it's going to win the election. The reason he minces words is that if he says the wrong thing, everyone's going to jump down his throat and call him a flip-flopper. 

Neither McCain nor Obama is a monster or a fool. I'd rather focus on how Obama is going to be a great, forward-looking leader and how his policies are going to set a new course for the country. And restore its prestige in the world.


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## JonFairhurst

I disagree, Nick.

The Swiftboaters told stories about Kerry that weren't necessarily true, and made him out to be a coward. Others who served with him had a different opinion.

In the cases above, I've showed actual video of McCain and his top economic adviser. The adviser is pretty clearly a rich guy who is feeling no pain. He seems pretty out of touch with actual people who are squeezed with job cuts, the housing market and expensive gas. The situation isn't "mental" or "psychological". It's real.

As for McCain, I find his reaction to be pretty lame for a self-proclaimed "straight talker." His position is pretty clear: he's not for regulating the insurance companies, and he's not for mandating contraceptives. However, he knows that his position will piss off many women. It's not like he advertises that he has a near 100% voting record on criminalizing abortion.

In fact, Carly Fiorina (formerly of HP fame) was on the trail recently lying about his record of supporting women's causes. Yet the media doesn't fact check it or call them on it.

McCain has tried to whitewash his voting record for veterans as well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnyEMLXvgV8

No, he's no monster, but McCain can't have it both ways on sensitive issues.


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## JonFairhurst

So, what's the difference between John McCain and George W. Bush on economics?

According to South Carlina Governor MarK Sanford (R), "Um, yeah. For instance, take, you know, take, for instance, the issue of -- I'm drawing a blank..."

Sanford eventually answered, "NAFTA", even though the Bush and McCain policies on NAFTA are pretty much identical.

Can you say "McCain equals Bush"?

See the video here.

Personally, I think the difference is that McCain has one of the top guys responsible for the current bank failures (Phil Gramm) as his top economic adviser. Bush keeps his bank lobbyists in the shadows.


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## Abe

"Don't tell me word's don't matter"

”We still don’t abide by that basic precept of Matthew
whatever you do to the least of my brothers, you do to me” 
Obama said.

I guess that doesn't include
Obama's own brother who lives
in a 2 by 3 meter shack 
on 1 dollar a day.

Just 1 of Obama's daily
4 dollar lattes
would quadruple 
the poor brother's standard of living.

The more apt scripture,
Obama forgot to quote
symbolizing one's unwillingness
to accept responsiblity for 
the welfare of their "brothers"

"Am I my brother's keeper?” 

A man who doesn't demonstrate
compassion for his own
brother, will care for
you?... 

Talk is cheap.
"Don't tell me word's don't matter" o/~


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## JohnG

Hi Abe,

I just came back from Kenya a few months ago. Even as a tourist, you can see how stunningly poor a country it is -- really tragic. From the air, the slums of Nairobi stretch for miles and miles -- no water, no paved roads, no sanitation; by reputation, no police to protect the weak. That part of the world is a far cry from the gated communities that also exist, just a few miles away, in Nairobi as well.

According to what he said himself, Obama's brother has been hiding from the world. The two met as adults only one time, and they are half-brothers, sharing only a father, the same father who abandoned Barak when he was two years old.

So, I think the situation with his brother is a lot more ambiguous than you are implying. If you are bagging him because he has been successful, maybe you should consider the current occupant of the White House or the Clintons or Mr. McCain. This country has been in the clutches of rich people for a long time and, by comparison, Obama is practically poverty-stricken.

According to many religions, those people in those slums are just as much your and my brothers and sisters as any siblings we may have. But if you go to those places in any big city in any third world country, you realize that the problems are so overwhelming that only a large group -- a major religious organization or NGO or government -- can possibly address them.

Maybe Barak should invite his brother to live with him -- is that what you think? Would you? I think that's kind of a difficult question and frankly, I don't know what most people would or should do. Maybe we all should invite a poor person to live with us? How many people do that? Does John McCain do that?

Besides, I wish that politics could get out of the name-calling and personalization that seems to have become habitual in the US since around 1994. Instead of attacking either candidate as a "bad person," as I think you are doing, maybe it is better to look at his platform? Maybe one question is not, "what is Barak doing for his long-lost half brother" but "what are we all doing" or "what is John McCain doing," or maybe, "which Presidential candidate is more likely to steer the country in a direction so that everyone benefits -- the USA and the many brothers and sisters living like that all over the world?"

If you don't like his health care plan or his tax plan or his plans for governing -- ok, that's something to argue over. But hacking at the guy and implying that this issue obviously represents personal failing -- I don't think it's that obvious. One could go after McCain over leaving his first wife or the Keating thing, but why try to demonize either one? One of these guys is going to be President and I think it's more useful to focus on policies.


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## Abe

John,

A man living in a mansion is poverty striken?

Charity begins in the home.

Btw, 

McCain was moved to adopt a child 
in an orphange in Bangladesh.
Obama on the other hand had no compassion 
to help his brother living in the conditions
you described In Nairobi.

Am I my brother's keeper?


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## Nick Batzdorf

"but why try to demonize either one? One of these guys is going to be President and I think it's more useful to focus on policies."

Right on Brutha.

I hate this demonizing shite on either side. It's just stupid.


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## Nick Batzdorf

By the way, I think we should keep this to one thread. Let's let this one die and go back to the main one.


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## JohnG

Ahh. Repeating yourself.

If you want to try to make out that he's a Boogie Man, help yourself; perhaps you're impervious to an invitation to move out of quoting Scripture and name-calling? You could do the same with McCain's personal history and business dealings. Camels, eye of the needle, etc. He and his wife are worth hundreds of millions and famously have many mansions (like you know who); how much of that has he given up? What percentage? How does that compare with what you give or I give or should give? How are we to judge anyway?

Trying to demonize either candidate distracts from policy issues that will make a real difference to us and to the world. Overall, McCain's recent policy positions line up very closely with the current President's -- maybe you like them? That would make a good conversation.

Corporate and individual taxes, foreign policy, Supreme Court appointments, states' rights, regulation of financial institutions and lending to individuals, limits of presidential power, how the heck we deal with the Palestinian question and Iraq -- there are plenty of substantive issues, even leaving aside the role of government in social / moral choices. You are sniping from Parade Magazine or People -- maybe upgrade to The Economist?


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## JohnG

Nick Batzdorf @ 23rd August 2008 said:


> By the way, I think we should keep this to one thread. Let's let this one die and go back to the main one.



Will do -- just saw your post, Nick.


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## Nick Batzdorf

One benefit of moving to the other thread is that we don't have to read Abe's same post over and over.


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## Abe

The Odd couple :D 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PEP45coas0&eurl

(can we get these guys some name tags or something?
seems to be confusion about names and titles)


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## midphase

actually if his name really was Barack America...I bet he'd gain 20% in the polls just from people like you!


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## artsoundz

ha!- yep. 

Hey Kays- love that Avatar. very cool look- nice combination of colors.


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## Fernando Warez

midphase @ Sun Aug 24 said:


> actually if his name really was Barack America...I bet he'd gain 20% in the polls just from people like you!



hahaha!....


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## Abe

Kays,

I like Biden. The problem is 
his stance on important
issues is in stark contrast with
Obama.

Obama: "Saddam poses no imminent
and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors"

Biden: "This is a guy who's used
weapons of mass destruction. 
This is a guy who's destabilized the whole neighborhood. 
This is a guy who is an extreme danger to the world.
And this is a guy who is in every way possible
seeking weapons of mass destruction. 
That case, in and of itself, ought to be sufficient."

Biden said,(re:evidence on Iraq) 'I know there is enough circumstantial
evidence that if there were a jury trial I could convict you.'"

Biden: "I still believe that Saddam 
possessed weapons of mass destruction
and that the war in Iraq was justified." 

Biden: "John McCain is a personal friend,
a great friend, and I would be honored to run with 
or against John McCain, because I think the country would be better off."

ABC 8/19/07 (re: Obama prepared to lead)
"You were asked is he ready.
You said 'I think he can be ready,
but right now I don't believe he is.
The presidency is not something that 
lends itself to on-the-job training.'" 

Biden: "I think that I stand by the statement." 
(this statement was made a year ago) 
---------------
Biden: "If the Democrats think we're going
to be abò}   ƒx}   ƒy}   ƒz}   ƒ{}   ƒ|}   ƒ}}   ƒ~}   ƒ}   ƒ€}   ƒ}   ƒ‚}   ƒƒ}   ƒ„}   ƒ…}   ƒ†}   ƒ‡}   ƒˆ}   ƒ‰}   ƒŠ}   ƒ‹}   ƒŒ}   ƒ}   ƒŽ}   ƒ}   ƒ}   ƒ‘}   ƒ’}   ƒ“}   ƒ”}   ƒ•}   ƒ–}   ƒ—}   ƒ˜}   ƒ™}   ƒš}   ƒ›}   ƒœ}   ƒ}   ƒž}   ƒŸ}   ƒ }   ƒ¡}   ƒ¢}   ƒ£}   ƒ¤}   ƒ¥}   ƒ¦}   ƒ§}   ƒ¨}   ƒ©}   ƒª}   ƒ«}   ƒ¬}   ƒ­}   ƒ®}   ƒ¯


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## Nick Batzdorf

Oh shut up.


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## Fernando Warez

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Aug 24 said:


> Oh shut up.



:lol: ....

This is just what i was going to write but didn't want to offend anyone.


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## Nick Batzdorf

Did I post that?!

What's wrong with me!


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## artsoundz

You're a human being. That's whats wrong and it's just not going to fly in this thread.

But I can help you w/ that.

Step 1. put an x on your forehead

Step2. get a drill....


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## midphase

Abe,

I know it must seem odd to you....but a lot of those statements are not necessarily contradictory.

Bush (and the rest of the Bush gang) presented at the time a very compelling argument for invading Iraq. Back then, the majority of congress would not even conceive the idea that the majority of the "proof" that Bush was providing was either made up or extremely circumstantial.

It's easy to see how someone like Biden could have been bamboozled along with 90% of congress to accept the information as facts. Obama had a sharper insight and the foresight to oppose the arguments that were being presented (and at the time he suffered for it).

Regarding Biden not feeling confident in Obama's experience....he was probably being honest back then...and he's being honest now. People change their minds, they learn new facts, gain more insight and shift their views. Biden has learned more about the real Obama in recent months than he ever has before. My guess is that he's not more confident that although Obama's resume isn't as extensive, he is indeed ready to tackle the presidency.

Regarding McCain...let's not forget that the McCain of a few years ago is not the McCain of today. As many have pointed out, the old McCain would never have voted for the current McCain! Talk about some serious flip flopping!


Artsoundz:

Thanks about the avatar comment...it's part of my new image maker-over....new web site, new business cards, new letterhead, and I'm going vegan (actually I'm joking about the vegan part).


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## artsoundz

I think the choice of Biden (w/regard to his past criticism of Obama) says a lot for Obama. 

It come off to me as Obama is not afraid of criticism,particularly if it helps him to grow as a leader. 

Once again, Obama is breaking the mold and Biden is part of that. With Biden's experience in foreign policy, this vice presidency seems to be in the process of being reinvented and it's exciting.


great site, Kays. sent you a pm...


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## Abe

What happened to 
freedom of speech?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D74Xs1VuYAE&eurl=

very sad indeed.


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## JonFairhurst

Abe, it looks like everybody there had freedom of speech - including Fox. Nobody took their cameras or mics, and nobody shut down their tower. 

This was a case of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle in action. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle The act of observation affects what is observed.

Fox went to report on the acts of the protesters, and I believe that's exactly what they got on tape.

I wonder, will Fox air the event in documentary news style, or will they play the victim card? 

Based on Abe's post, it's gonna be victim city.


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## midphase

Yes Abe...very sad indeed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkRSEX3O ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlacFmRGPgI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW2DaLCy-sw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxMidi2TofY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OshuYcL5sGg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0Ftq9N4fzo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMIm8qsJ ... re=related


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## José Herring

Those are the same masked lunatics that try to incite riot at every protest.

Little to do with anything more than just trying to incite social unrest.

What I can't understand is why these masked buffoons feel like they need to hide their face for everything.


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## Abe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3NLgwge ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGGZ8DcR ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa-fhCGn ... re=related

An old adage says,
Tell me who your friends are, and I'll know who you are.


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## JonFairhurst

josejherring @ Mon Aug 25 said:


> What I can't understand is why these masked buffoons feel like they need to hide their face for everything.


 Because they fear government retribution.

One thing for sure: they don't represent the mainstream Democratic party. This year I attended the Democratic County Convention, our State Conversion, the local caucus and the legislative district caucus, as well as the main fundraiser in our area (@ $70 a plate, or so.) 

No one attending wore masks.

Even though the Governor spoke at the Jefferson Jackson dinner - and it was held next door to our local (conservative) newspaper's headquarters, the Columbian didn't bother reporting on the event. I guess no news occurs on Sunday.

There were protesters outside from both the right and left, and one inside who disrupted one speech on the topic of on-going war funding. She had her say, left without controversy, and the speeches continued. And thankfully, she didn't wear a mask either.


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## Abe

post Biden pick..

Gallup poll as of 8/24/08
45% McCain 45%Obama
no bounce for Obama...
with Pres.Bush's rating in 30%;
economy hurting;
unpoplular war.

how could this be?


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## midphase

Polls right now are completely meaningless, you know that, we know that.

However if there is any meaning to be grasped by these numbers is how deeply racist this country still is!


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## JonFairhurst

After listening to tonight's speeches by Ted Kennedy and Michelle Obama, I'm reminded what this election is all about. It's about hope vs. fear. It's about working to make the world as it should be, rather than accepting the world as it is.

Abe's links showing the protesters are all about fear. What's worse, they're about fear of our fellow Americans.

I, for one, do not fear my neighbors. And I am looking forward to a positive change in Washington and across these United States.


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## midphase

I'm voting republican because....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiQJ9Xp0xxU


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## Abe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4Oytd6DaWk&eurl=

on 9/11 New York Times reported Ayers saying,
"I don't regret setting bombs ... I feel we didn't do enough.''

Sen.Obama has called this man respectable and mainstream;
Sen.Obama is pretending to barely know the man
who hosted the launch of his political career and with whom
he has worked for years to advance a liberal agenda.

Records released tomorrow are expected to shine 
new light on the relationship between Ayers and Obama.

Btw, here is a picture of Ayers stepping on the American Flag.
mainstream and respectable?
http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/ayers%20twn.jpg


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## SvK

Abe......

How do I put this?
You are such an Abehole.......

I know it takes all sorts to make this world go round, but I can't shake the notion that this country would be just a little bit better without you in it.....

Let's say you served on a school board. You are your own person. You have your own views. You are in no way defined by others who serve on the board. That is ridiculous. Ayers is a professor and lecturer at university. Are we to assume that all those that attend his classes, attend that school or live in that state are sympathetic to Ayers views?

Of course not....

You sound like Joe McCarthy. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_McCarthy 


SvK


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## Nick Batzdorf

Abe, you've already been bumped from two threads because you won't stop this frustratingly stupid crap. This is your warning not to make it three.

I'm getting really tired of saying the same thing over and over: if you want to discuss any issues, please go right ahead. But the other stuff belongs somewhere else, such as an outhouse.


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## Abe

Obama supporters,

I'm curious, who do you suppose 
Bill Clinton was referring to when
speaking in Denver today before a group 
of foreign dignitaries...

He said: "Suppose for example you're a voter.
And you've got candidate X and candidate Y. 
Candidate X agrees with you on everything,
but you don't think that person can deliver on anything. 
Candidate Y disagrees with you on half the issues, 
but you believe that on the other half, 
the candidate will be able to deliver. 
For whom would you vote?" 

after a pause:
"This has nothing to do with what's going on now." 

here is the clip 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BviZPqQcp8k

Sounds undercutting to me.

Btw, X and Y hmmm...
alluding to chromosomes?

--------------------------------

On a sidenote,
can we agree that polls
are worth garbage.

Gallup as of 8/26/08
McCain 46% - Obama 44%

Reuters/Zogby as of 8/20/08
Mccain 46% - Obama 41%


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## José Herring

One good thing that NSS had that we don't. The ignore button.


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## midphase

"I'm curious, who do you suppose 
Bill Clinton was referring to when 
speaking in Denver today before a group 
of foreign dignitaries... "

I honestly have no idea what he was referring to...but the fact that FOX is reporting on it shows you just how desperate the far right is getting!


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## Abe

"I'm not aiming for a lot of high rhetoric," Obama said.
"I'm much more concerned with communicating 
how I intend to help middle-class families live their lives."

Tonight was nothing but more lofty rhetoric.
Lot's of fluff, lacked details, and substance. 

Clinton said the other night,
Know way, know how, know McCain :D


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## SvK

A-t
B-est
E-mpty

SvK


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## midphase

"Tonight was nothing but more lofty rhetoric. 
Lot's of fluff, lacked details, and substance. "

I guess when you've convinced yourself so much that he's the devil....there's really nothing that he can say or do that you won't hear as whatever you want it to be.

I think even McCain himself is probably admitting that tonight Obama gave a really great speech....and as he's preparing for his counterattack next week...part of McCain must be feeling pretty nervous right about now.


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## Fernando Warez

SvK @ Fri Aug 29 said:


> A-merican
> B-igot
> E-xtraodinaire
> 
> SvK



:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## midphase

So...any thoughs on Palin? Is this McCain's plan to take over Hillary's disgruntled supporters?


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## Nick Batzdorf

Maybe a little, but the main group he's going after is moose hunters.


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## Christian Marcussen

midphase @ Fri Aug 29 said:


> So...any thoughs on Palin? Is this McCain's plan to take over Hillary's disgruntled supporters?



I think itt's a smart choice. It is a reaction, but this will soon be forgotten. For the first time I actually think McCain has a areal chance now. It will all be decided in the debates.


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## artsoundz

I cant imagine her as president. She's against abortion, for drilling for more oil. just more of the same and he picked her for cynical reasons. I just cant stand republicans.

However, I admire her a great deal for choosing to keep her child knowing he had downs syndrome. I really think that's remarkable and does say a lot about her.


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## Abe

Obama Spokesman, Bill Burton:
“Today, John McCain put the former mayor of a 
town of 9,000 with zero foreign policy experience 
a heartbeat away from the presidency. "

Heads up to Obama camp.
zero foreign policy experience
should not be mentioned.


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## Christian Marcussen

Abe - don't you see the point in that comment?


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## Abe

Yes, the point being
Obama has 143 days of Senate experience. :D 

Obama camp seems to believe he is ready
to be commander in chief. :?


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## Christian Marcussen

No. The point is that all of a sudden the "strongest card" the republicans have is now pretty much taken out of the game. It also puts into context just how hippocritical the GOP is (to their defence though, they had no clue whoc McCain would pick). 

That said - it does not matter that you remove the strongest card if you replace it with something even stronger. That might just be the case.


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## José Herring

Abe @ Fri Aug 29 said:


> Obama Spokesman, Bill Burton:
> “Today, John McCain put the former mayor of a
> town of 9,000 with zero foreign policy experience
> a heartbeat away from the presidency. "
> 
> Heads up to Obama camp.
> zero foreign policy experience
> should not be mentioned.



I understand Abe, but you gotta admit that picking Palin isn't exactly a move that's going to strengthen McCain's viability for the Whitehouse. Condolesa Rice, maybe but a 1st time Mayor of Alaska? He's purely out to get what he considers disgruntled Hilary voters and he had to dig deep into the Republican ranks in order to find any elected officials at all that happen to be women.

I use to have respect for McCain. But, this choice is going to have even his Republican supporters scratching their heads.

He's 72. If he dies then soccer mom beauty queen governor of our least populated state becomes our president. YIKES!!!

And I can't believe that any Hilary voters are going to fall for this stunt, but I could be wrong.

Jose


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## Nick Batzdorf

"Condolesa Rice, maybe"

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

No Jose. She's absolutely useless.


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## José Herring

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Aug 29 said:


> "Condolesa Rice, maybe"
> 
> hahahahahahahahahahahahaha
> 
> No Jose. She's absolutely useless.



Maybe. But, then he could play the race card and the woman card. Follow the Logic. Try to think like a Republican. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## artsoundz

Moose meat is the best meat you'll ever taste, bar none. I love Bullwinkel as much as the next squirrel but it's true... I'm sorry... but it's true.


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## Abe

Brilliant move by McCain.

Palin has about the 
same experience 
as Obama.

Obama = junior senator voting with his party 96% ...where is 
his demonstration of bipartisan effort?
Palin = popular governor w/(executive branch experience)

"A maverick with a record of reform has chosen
a maverick with a record of reform"

Obama and Biden
ranked #1 and #3
most liberal senators
(no record demonstrating
bipartisan effort)

McCain and Palin have
broken from the republican party
with a record to back
that up, not just lofty rhetoric.

“It turns out the women of America
aren’t finished yet and we can shatter
that glass ceiling once and for all.”
Sarah Palin

Touché


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## Nick Batzdorf

"Maybe. But, then he could play the race card and the woman card. Follow the Logic."

And the totally inept and ineffectual Secretary of State card.

"Try to think like a Republican."

A blatant oxymoron if I've ever seen one!


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## Nick Batzdorf

"Moose meat is the best meat you'll ever taste"

Not me. I don't eat mammals or ducks (which are honorary mammals because they're cute).


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## artsoundz

I didnt say I was proud of my moose eating. Im' ashamed... yet....hungry.

It's just that it awakened in me a primal hunger that I have yet to tame. And McCains Vp choice has made it more difficult. Damn the right wing! 

wingss... mmmm...bbbq wings....


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## JonFairhurst

Palin is literally married to somebody in the oil industry - just like the Republican Party!


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## Nick Batzdorf

...although in all fairness, which of the four women in Alaska isn't married to somebody in the oil industry? Unless you're a tundraologist, that's about all there is up there!


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## José Herring

Abe @ Fri Aug 29 said:


> Brilliant move by McCain.
> 
> 
> 
> McCain and Palin have
> broken from the republican party
> with a record to back
> that up, not just lofty rhetoric.
> 
> “It turns out the women of America
> aren’t finished yet and we can shatter
> that glass ceiling once and for all.”
> Sarah Palin
> 
> Touché



And now the Republican party will break from them. 

The campaign ad should read "McCain Palin, the classical Democrats!"


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## Nick Batzdorf

Abe, are you by any chance a high school kid?


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## SvK

A
B-ad
E-xcuse


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## Thonex

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Aug 29 said:


> ...although in all fairness, which of the four women in Alaska isn't married to somebody in the oil industry? Unless you're a tundraologist, that's about all there is up there!



So... she's from Alaska... her hubby is in the oil business... and then Repugnicants want to drill there... hmmmm.... And they're playing the gender card.... hmmm ... that's about as subtle as the Berlin Air Raid. :lol:


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## JonFairhurst

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Aug 29 said:


> ...although in all fairness, which of the four women in Alaska isn't married to somebody in the oil industry? Unless you're a tundraologist, that's about all there is up there!



Very true. This pick does nothing to counter the charge that the Republican ticket is out of touch with mainstream America.


----------



## Abe

high school kid?

with your cliches I wonder 
about you guys...

unlike your candidate
who speaks about change
but voted along party line
for the entire 143 days in office;

Palin took on the oil industry 
against the will of the republicans in
alaska. a true reformer.

google is your friend.
do a search on palin takes on oil industry 

here is a lilttle excerp from AP

"She immediately took on the state's most lucrative industry,
questioning whether Alaska - which gets about 85% of its
revenue from big oil - is getting its fair share of the oil 
companies' billions of dollars in quarterly profits.

She got what she wanted from the GOP-controlled Legislature. 
Relying heavily on Democratic votes, she won approval last month 
to boost taxes on oil company profits from 22.5% to 25%. 
That could bring in an additional $1.6 billion annually for the state.

On the same day a former Alaska lawmaker was convicted 
on federal bribery charges, Palin signed an ethics reform bill into law.

Since then, two more former lawmakers have been found 
guilty of bribery related to VECO Corp., an oil field contractor. 
Another former lawmaker awaits trial, and U.S. Sen. Ted Stevens 
and U.S. Rep. Don Young, both Republicans, are under investigation."

Not lofty rhetoric my friends.... action

Here is a cliche for you
Actions speak louder than words,
even lofty words...

"I don't sweat it at all that the partisanship
isn't playing a big part of my agenda," Palin said. 
"What that tells me is this: that I'm on the right track,
and that it hasn't stopped us." Palin

read and weep


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

"high school kid?"

Well, your thinking is at about a 9th grade level. Actually, my daughter is going into 9th grade and she's a good way ahead of you, both in her thinking and in her writing.


----------



## Abe

Nick what happened to:

"I'm getting really tired of saying the same thing over and over: if you want to discuss any issues, please go right ahead. But the other stuff belongs somewhere else, such as an outhouse." 

someone sounds a bit 
frustrated.

Here is a high school lesson.

Governors ... govern.
They develop and present budgets.
They appoint government officials.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Hey Abe,

This woman was mayor of a town of 6500. She's anti-abortion and against gay rights.

Care to quote some scripture?


----------



## Abe

Need I point out again.

Obama has 143 days Senate experience.
Palin Four years mayor, Four years Lt.Governor
and Two years Governor.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

And she likes moose hunting.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

And she's anti-abortion and against gay rights.


----------



## Abe

2 lawyers running against 
2 mavericks (with a proven record of reform)who aren't lawyers.

Who represents change?


----------



## Abe

o-[][]-o


----------



## Thonex

Abe @ Fri Aug 29 said:


> 2 lawyers running against
> 2 mavericks (with a proven record of reform)who aren't lawyers.
> 
> Who represents change?



A Governor of Alaska knee-deep in oil and willing to do anything to drill in Alaska's North Slope.. and the current administration knee deep in oil... more of EXACTLY the same. Scary.


----------



## Fernando Warez

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Aug 29 said:


> And she likes moose hunting.



:lol: ... aaaaah! I'm enjoying this thread....


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

So Palin, is she Ted Nugent's niece or something? I can't help but see family traits there...


----------



## artsoundz

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Aug 29 said:


> And she likes moose hunting.



oh great...now I'm hungry again....


----------



## SvK

Aside from visiting the Alaskan National Guard in an American barracks in IRAQ..................Palin has NEVER travelled abroad.........has NEVER set foot on Asian, European or African soil.......EVER...

Now stay with me here, but I think it stands to reason that the word "World" is key in "World Leader"

In her twenties, she did the beauty contest circuit and after becoming "Miss Wasilla", she became runner-up "Miss Alaska". Her dream was to become a SportsCaster, which she did on some local stations, she also plays the flute.....

I DEFINITELY want her to handle the intricacies of a new cold-war and other looming international crisis.....

SvK


----------



## SvK

Sarah Palin......Miss Wasilla 1984

....see now you can be VP too....Anyone can do it wooohooooo


----------



## Abe

"Aside from visiting the Alaskan National Guard in an American barracks in IRAQ..................Palin has NEVER travelled abroad.........has NEVER set foot on Asian, European or African soil.......EVER..."

Wrong.
don't put your foot in your mouth.

Unlike Obama who passed up our troops
when he realized he wouldn't be able to
make a photo op out of it,
Gov.Palin actually visited our wounded soldiers
in Germany.

Iraq?
She has traveled as many times as Obama. 

What has Obama done in the Senate?
voted present 130 times (not yes not no)
read up if your not sure what that means.

Other than that, he has spent his time running 
for president.

143 days experience as a Senator qualifies
him to be commander in chief?


----------



## artsoundz

SvK @ Sat Aug 30 said:


> Sarah Palin......Miss Wasilla 1984
> 
> ....see now you can be VP too....Anyone can do it wooohooooo



didnt she play Mary Ann on Gilligans Island?


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

I think the time has come for a new reality show: American VP

Take 20 of the most beautiful, fit, inexperienced 40-year olds and offer them the chance to be on the ticket. Episodes include: the reporters pit, skeletons in the closet, what's-middle-class mystery, drilling for salvation, spot the fetus, presidents of countries for 100 points, basketball skeet shooting, Saudi licious, etc.


----------



## Abe

here is your VP. hehe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmRXH7RkCZQ


----------



## artsoundz

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Aug 30 said:


> I think the time has come for a new reality show: American VP
> 
> Take 20 of the most beautiful, fit, inexperienced 40-year olds and offer them the chance to be on the ticket. Episodes include: the reporters pit, skeletons in the closet, what's-middle-class mystery, drilling for salvation, spot the fetus, presidents of countries for 100 points, basketball skeet shooting, Saudi licious, etc.



mwahahahahhah!!!


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

artsoundz @ 30/8/2008 said:


> didnt she play Mary Ann on Gilligans Island?



You're right. Even Ginger thinks so:


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

NO, wait. I got it. She played Janet on Three's Company!!!


----------



## artsoundz

I find that funny, actually. I'd hang with him.

Abe, you really have a problem with people being people, dont you?


----------



## artsoundz

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Aug 30 said:


> NO, wait. I got it. She played Janet on Three's Company!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/quote
> 
> I have a feeling we're going to see some amzingly funny SNL skits in the next year. Definately a silver lining.
> 
> Ned- whenever I see your " You Shoot I Score"- which is one of the most clever names ever- I think of another "top ten" clever name for an all female Avant Garde jazz group that used to play here in Seattle. They were called "The OutSkirts".


----------



## Abe

it is amazing how easily
you Obama guys are falling
in the trap of crying out
lack of experience.

Obama has 143 days Senate experience.


----------



## SvK

SHe has NEVER visited Europe....Never visited ASIA...Never visited the WORLD>>>>
Because she has NEVER been interested......

SvK


----------



## choc0thrax

artsoundz @ Sat Aug 30 said:


> I have a feeling we're going to see some amzingly funny SNL skits in the next year. Definately a silver lining.



Amazingly funny and SNL should never be used in the same sentence. o-[][]-o


----------



## SvK

If I decided to some day be POTUS or a world leader......You can BET I would have an INTEREST in the world........


This is insulting...I am insulted....


PS: Why the hell did he not choose a QUALIFIED Female?

Condi Rice comes to mind.........


SvK


----------



## artsoundz

ok. Won't happen again. What SHOULD I find funny? and while you're at it, what kind of music should I enjoy?


----------



## SvK

My mother and father, LIFE-LONG Rebublicans.....(not the evangelical sort-the goldwater sort....like Suzie Eisenhower)...

Anyway they called me after the announcement of Palin, and said they were completely stunned, and for the first time would 100% vote DEM for Obama/Biden in November...THEY CAN'T WAIT!!!!


With the Palin pick...Republican's have now become the laughing stock of the world.....


SvK


----------



## artsoundz

and on day two....


----------



## Pzy-Clone

Hey havent ya heard, America is the world.?
The rest is just statistics.

Seriously...i cannot comprehend how a 72 year old man with cancer is valid contestant for the US predicency...buut hey, im just a wacky foreigner.

Can i vote for Arnold? :roll:


----------



## Abe

svk,

Not stunned to vote in
a man with 143 days senate experience?

Btw,

check the post above.
you keep harping about her 
not visiting Europe.
In fact she took the time
to visit our wounded troops
in Germany, unlike 
Obama who passed once
he realized the visit
would not present him
with a photo op.

She has been to Iraq as many 
times as Obama.


----------



## artsoundz

Obama didnt visit the wounded as he felt it would be viewed as a political event.

He didnt feel that the wounded, who sacrificed so much, deserved that kind of low blow attention.

It was a classy decision and thoughtful. Something you are incapable of grasping. abe.


----------



## SvK

An Individual, who shows virtually NO interest in the rest of the world; she has until very recently NOT owned a US passport , and would rather participate in Beauty Contests, than to give back to society in her youth..........A person who would rather focus on being a Sportscaster than focus on Academics, or maybe world travel to broaden her scope for a productive future in foreign policy........Has NO repeat NOOO business being the potential Leader Of The Free World......

She is a JOKE

SvK


----------



## Abe

I understand your frustration.

The VP on McCain's ticket
has more governing experience
then your entire ticket.

Governor's govern.
They appoint officials.
They present budgets.

you will not win this arguement
when your Presidential candidate
has 143 days senate experience.

No record of reform.
No record of bipartisanship.

Palin has a record of reform
unlike your emtpy suit
candidate.

We are still waiting to hear
what qualifies Obama.
Is it being a good orator.

Show his record of accomplishments.

Nothing but lofty rhetoric


artsoundz, 
Obama could have visited as a citizen.
But again the photo op was
not there for him.


----------



## artsoundz

[quote="Abe @ Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:13 pm"


artsoundz, 
Obama could have visited as a citizen.
But again the photo op was
not there for him.[/quote]

abe- once again, citizen or otherwise- he knew it would have been perceived as a poltical move. I absolutely believe that had he visited as a citizen, you would have been all over him for that. 

He's got class. 

Also- Beauty Queen/sportcaster Moose eating (yum) Wolf killing Sarah had no governing experience before she became guv.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Hey Abe, you still haven't raised one single issue in the sum total of all your ridiculous posts.

Whether or not you agree with him, Obama is clearly one of the brightest and most talented politicians we've seen in a very long time. He's much brighter than you are, and you only have to watch him speak to know that he's not faking it, he really is that passionate and dedicated. For you to go on like this just makes you look stupid.

I have no problem with your not agreeing with him, but instead of combing the internet for tidbits that can be twisted to make Obama look bad, you'd be much better served reading about world affairs and becoming informed.

Instead all you're doing is trolling and passing wind in this forum. ò   ƒ˜    ƒ˜   ƒ˜   ƒ˜   ƒ˜   ƒ˜   ƒ˜   ƒ˜   ƒ˜   ƒ˜	   ƒ˜
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----------



## artsoundz

rgames @ Sat Aug 30 said:


> A few comments:
> 
> Palin incompetent? In what regard? America has never had a mother in office at the white house, much less one with five children she's still raising, including an infant. Who would be more competent to present the case for America's families?
> 
> And regarding Obama's leadership: he's in a dead heat with McCain, whom Obama is portraying as the next Bush. Bush has one of the lowest approval ratings in presidential history and the best Obama can do is tie his supposed protege? America disliked Bush before Obama ever came on the scene. Obama picked up on that sentiment and built a campaign on it. That's not leadership - that's followership. Poll followership.
> 
> Now let's look at McCain: the supposed Bush protege, ostensibly infinitely unlikeable. But basically tied with Obama in the polls. And tied with Obama even while stating his opinion that we need to continue some elements of the Bush policy. So, clearly working against the grain of current American sentiment but able to change people's minds. That's leadership.
> 
> And what of Obama's record as a public servant? As far as I can tell, Obama has spent most of his time in office campaining for other offices. How effective can he be? He's clearly a power-hungry political animal and, in that regard, is much more similar to Bush than is McCain.
> 
> It's tough to judge politicians on what they say about the "issues." I find it much better to examine their motivations. In that regard, I see Obama as, well, motivated to be president. I see McCain motivated by public service as evidenced by a long history in the military and government. And in Palin, I see the motivation of a mother, one with an infant with Down's syndrome. The health and well being of America's families are an extremely important issue in this race and I don't see anyone who would fight for them more than Palin.
> 
> rgames



" America disliked Bush before Obama ever came on the scene. Obama picked up on that sentiment and built a campaign on it. That's not leadership - that's followership. Poll followership."

So then you're saying there is no such thing as principal, and one should not act on it? And what's so remarkable is that you go on to say the current president isnt exactly cutting it w/ the American people. Thank god, Obama has his principles and is working to get these morons out. So then, It's obvious you dont believe in acting on principle. Whats that say about you?

Now- I dont mean that. But that's your logic. makes no sense whatsoever.

This is nothing less than word trickery. Even your statement comparing two unrelated polls. A performance of a president with the questionable value of a political race poll doesnt belong in the same paragraph.

And what if the worst happens and Palin becomes president? there goes any kind of mothering for an infant w/ down syndrome> What kind of mother would take that risk? Whats that say about her character? your logic. Republican logic.

Actually, now that I think about it- thats something to consider. What a cold,wolf killing, oil guzzling, heartless, moose eating(mmmm..)anti gay, b....h! your logic.


----------



## rgames

Angry responses and personal attacks are two of the surest signs that you've said something logical and influential.

If it were insignificant, it would be ignored. If it were misleading, it would be debunked.



rgames


----------



## artsoundz

I think you misread. While my response may be blunt- I'm not angry. And I cant find a single personal comment I made towards you. I'm definitely criticizing your logic so... what is the point of responding?

I can assure you there was little in your comments that make sense or have validity to ME-. therefore it really makes no difference to me personally if somehow you think you hit a nerve. But I was compelled to respond to that conservative GOP word trickery. 

re read again and see if you dont get what I'm saying. And keep in mind opinions are just that. I prefer to hear concrete facts so judging someones motivation doesnt contribute much- just an opinion.

BTW-The last line about Sarah was ,once again, so tongue in cheek. It's the kind of propaganda talk republicans are so fond of. I was being sarcastic.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Richard, if you think any candidate for President isn't ambitious...well, they all are.

But I honestly believe that both McCain and Obama want to do good - unlike our present cynical and corrupt administration. That leaves policy, and McCain's ideas are all wrong (and I've elaborated on why I believe that above - or was it in another thread).


----------



## rgames

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Aug 30 said:


> Richard, if you think any candidate for President isn't ambitious...well, they all are.



True enough - but there's a difference between McCain's ambition and Obama's.

Look at McCain's history: Naval officer from 1955 - 1980, then a stint as a representative, then a senator from 1986 or so until 2008. What percentage of his time over those 53 years of public service was spent campaigning? And what percentage was spent actually doing the work of public service?

Now look at Obama's history: ran for state senate 1997, ran for representative in 2000, ran for senate in 2004, running for president in 2008. So in 11 years, Obama has run four campaigns. When does he actually do his public service? What does that say about his true motivations?

Doesn't that bother you?

I'd probably vote for Obama if he stopped and actually did some public service for a while. Then at least we'd figure out what he's all about. As far as I can tell, he's all about campaigning.

rgames


----------



## José Herring

rgames @ Sat Aug 30 said:


> A few comments:
> 
> Palin incompetent? In what regard? America has never had a mother in office at the white house, much less one with five children she's still raising, including an infant. Who would be more competent to present the case for America's families?





And what if she becomes president after John McCain croaks at the age of 74. She'll basically have to abandon her family to do an adequate job, traveling, summits, meetings, ect...

So much for family values.


----------



## José Herring

rgames @ Sat Aug 30 said:


> Now look at Obama's history: ran for state senate 1997, ran for representative in 2000, ran for senate in 2004, running for president in 2008. So in 11 years, Obama has run four campaigns. When does he actually do his public service? What does that say about his true motivations?
> 
> Doesn't that bother you?
> 
> I'd probably vote for Obama if he stopped and actually did some public service for a while. Then at least we'd figure out what he's all about. As far as I can tell, he's all about campaigning.
> 
> rgames



Graduating from Harvard Law in the top 10 of his class with his choice of any posh corporate job in America, yet he elected to go to Chicago's south side and do a door to door campaign to encourage people to get out and vote and to have a say in the outcome of their lives. Then he elected to become a lecturer on the CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES at the local university. Guess that doesn't count for public service.

Palin. Can't yet find that much good about her. Kind of a cute mom. Not much of a policy maker. Don't think that being governor of the most backwards and least populated state in America counts for much experience.


----------



## rgames

josejherring @ Sat Aug 30 said:


> And what if she becomes president after John McCain croaks at the age of 74. She'll basically have to abandon her family to do an adequate job, traveling, summits, meetings, ect...
> 
> So much for family values.



Well, that's a difficult sentiment to address. It's the time-honored "she should be at home raisin' them children" argument. I don't buy into it. Using a woman's reproductive status to deny her a job is not a good idea.

Besides, her husband is a commercial fisherman in Alaska. Those guys work, what, 3 weeks a year? So he's probably a stay-at-home dad most of the time.

I do agree, though, that McCain's age is a fly in the ointment. But he does look a little stiff, anyway. So if he does kick off, you can probably just prop him up on a podium and throw out some of his past soundbytes.

rgames


----------



## rgames

josejherring @ Sat Aug 30 said:


> Kind of a cute mom.



OK - gotta call you on that one. You've got some GOOD company if that's just "kind of cute" for 44 w/ 5 kids. :shock: 

rgames


----------



## SvK

Favorite McCain's statement on the stump:

"Obama would rather lose a war to win an election..I'd rather win a war and lose an election."

REALLY?????

Seems to me McCain would rather win an election and stick America with an incapable Vice President that can't be counted on to keep us safe if McCain should die!

SvK


----------



## rgames

josejherring @ Sat Aug 30 said:


> yet he elected to go to Chicago's south side and do a door to door campaign to encourage people to get out and vote



Good on him. Now, if he would just stick with it a while before starting another campaign, that would show some true commitment to public service.

Did he do it to change peoples' lives or just to check a box that needed checking before the next campaign?

rgames


----------



## Abe

A team of doctors from the Mayo Clinic declared 
"Sen. McCain enjoys excellent health and displays 
extraordinary energy, and, while it is impossible to 
predict any person's future health, I and my colleagues 
can find no medical reason or problem that would preclude 
Sen. McCain from fulfilling all of the duties or obligations 
of the president of the United States," 

all this talk about McCain dying.
you know he has released his medical records.
Obama on the other hand (a heavy smoker)
has released a one page summary of his
21 year medical history.

“In terms of additional records, 
if there are particular things that people have questions about, 
then we’d be happy to give that information,” Obama said.

What is he hiding?


----------



## SvK

*Obama / Biden 08*

Obama / Biden 08


----------



## SvK

Obama / Biden 08


----------



## SvK

*Obama / Biden 08*

Obama / Biden 08


----------



## SvK

*Obama / Biden 08*

Obama / Biden 08


----------



## SvK

*Obama / Biden 08*

Obama / Biden 08

SvK


----------



## SvK

WALL STREET JOURNAL....
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1220026 ... lenews_wsj

Gov. Palin has raised eyebrows in other ways. Many environmentalists are livid, for example, over her support of aerial shooting of wolves in Alaska -- despite ballot measures in the state in which voters twice since 1996 have voted to end the practice. "So far, people have been forgiving of her, but I don't know how long that can last," says Tom Banks, Alaska representative for Defenders of Wildlife, a Washington-based environmental group.

The governor says she is pro-environment and has defended the aerial shooting as necessary to build up moose and caribou herds in parts of Alaska to help improve local food supplies.

Gov. Palin's opted to board a jet from Dallas in April while about to deliver a child. Gov. Palin, who was eight months pregnant, says she felt a few contractions shortly before she was to give a keynote speech to an energy summit of governors in Dallas. But she says she went ahead with it after her doctor in Alaska advised her to put her feet up to rest. "I was not going to miss that speech," she says.

She rushed so quickly from the podium afterwards that Texas Gov. Rick Perry nervously asked if she was about to deliver the baby then. She made it to the airport, and gave birth hours after landing in Anchorage to Trig, who is diagnosed with Down Syndrome. "Maybe they shouldn't have let me fly, but I wasn't showing much so they didn't know," she says.


----------



## SvK

from an AP report in 1999:

"Pat Buchanan brought his conservative message of a smaller government and an America First foreign policy to Fairbanks and Wasilla on Friday as he continued a campaign swing through Alaska. Buchanan's strong message championing states rights resonated with the roughly 85 people gathered for an Interior Republican luncheon in Fairbanks. … Among those sporting Buchanan buttons were Wasilla Mayor Sarah Palin and state Sen. Jerry Ward, R-Anchorage."


----------



## Thonex

rgames @ Sat Aug 30 said:


> josejherring @ Sat Aug 30 said:
> 
> 
> 
> yet he elected to go to Chicago's south side and do a door to door campaign to encourage people to get out and vote
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good on him. Now, if he would just stick with it a while before starting another campaign, that would show some true commitment to public service.
> 
> Did he do it to change peoples' lives or just to check a box that needed checking before the next campaign?
> 
> rgames
Click to expand...

_
*"Did he do it to change peoples' lives or just to check a box that needed checking before the next campaign?"*_

Maybe he did it to get the "boxes checked" so that he could change peoples' lives in the most profound and influential way.... in public office.... as president of the United States of America. 8)


----------



## SvK

*Obama / Biden 08*

Obama / Biden 08


----------



## SvK

The reason town-halls are difficult for Obama is, to many people show up......

He who fills football stadiums fills voting booths.

SvK


----------



## SvK

Obama / Biden event in Ohio

Estimates had the crowd at the sprawling suburban high school as high as 19,000. Local campaign officials said it was larger than expected, especially given that this Saturday was the highest of holy days in Central Ohio: the day of home football game for the Ohio State Buckeyes.

that was today....

McCain/Palin event?
Less than 5000

SvK


----------



## SvK

It is so good to be here in Steeler Country!" Palin told about 5,000 supporters at a minor league ballpark here, about 30 miles south of Pittsburgh. Members of the crowd, including some from nearby Ohio and West Virginia.

19000 vs 5000

SvK


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

> Doesn't that bother you?



Not in the least, Richard, in fact I find those arguments totally thoughtless.

Both these guys are qualified for the office. Please, let's talk about how they plan to address the issues and stop the inane bullshit.

Otherwise none of us is any better than Abe.


----------



## rgames

SvK @ Sun Aug 31 said:


> It is so good to be here in Steeler Country!" Palin told about 5,000 supporters at a minor league ballpark here, about 30 miles south of Pittsburgh. Members of the crowd, including some from nearby Ohio and West Virginia.
> 
> 19000 vs 5000
> 
> SvK



I bet Britney Spears would draw an even larger crowd. Are we supposed to assume, then, that she's more qualified to be president?

And despite Obama's amazing ability to attract crowds, he's in a dead heat with McCain in the polls. How can that be? Isn't McCain the protege of George Bush? And everybody hates George Bush, right?

So why isn't Obama beating the pants off of McCain in the polls?

Your fervor for Obama is impressive, if a bit disturbing.

The story about Palin's baby - now that's intriguing! That's precisely the element that this campaing has lacked thus far - tabloid fodder. Interesting to see where that goes...

rgames


----------



## SvK

rgames......

What is disturbing is that an individual with your writing skills actually takes Palin seriously. 

SvK


----------



## SvK

rgames @ Sat Aug 30 said:


> SvK @ Sun Aug 31 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I
> SvK
> 
> 
> 
> Your fervor for Obama is impressive, if a bit disturbing.
> rgames
Click to expand...


It's why we are winning. I am sorry that you do not have a candidate you can get excited about. How many calls have you made for McCain? How many times have you donated money or time to his campaign? Concerning the polls; Why is Obama not further ahead in the polls? Racism........

It's not fervor. It's effort. Grassroots effort. It's funny how repubs call us Obama supporters fervent or cultish........But whenever Repubs mention Reagan they get a hard-on or how should I put it, Fervent?. Us fervent? Listened to Limbaugh? Now that is fervent.

I do not believe for a single moment that Obama is the do-all messiah. He is a politician, I know that. I am a democrat. I surveyed the field of candidates and concluded that I was in line with 3 of them. HRC, Biden and Obama. I believed that all three were up to the task. Then I decided from my gut who I thought was the most honorable, sincere and inspiring if you will.....For me that took HRC off the table.......Now I was left with Biden and Obama. At that point I decided to go with Obama.........get ready.....BECAUSE he is Black......

All men are created Equal.............It's time for our constitution to become true, instead of just a hypocrisy. 

SvK


----------



## midphase

"Did he do it to change peoples' lives or just to check a box that needed checking before the next campaign? "

Richard,

From that statement, I feel that your level of cynicism is so high that there's nothing that can be said that you will interpret with any degree of objectivity. You've obviously made up your mind...I would like to think that your decision came from an objective and educated place where you carefully looked with genuine interest at both candidates and figured out which of the two best represents your interests and would best benefit you once elected. 

Unfortunately I suspect that at some point in your life you decided that you were going to be a Republican, and you determined that you were going to stick to your party lines no matter what (which, just like Abe, has probably made you unable to look at someone like Obama in an unbiased manner).

I'm not saying that Obama supporters are not biased against McCain...but how can we be accused of having drank the cool-aid when McCain supporters appear even more fervent in their support despite some truly baffling strategies and decisions?

FYI, back in 2000, despite my very liberal and Democratic views, I would have voted for McCain over Gore had he been the Republican candidate. It's too bad that the McCain of 2000 is not running this year!


----------



## midphase

" Kind of a cute mom."

I thought we had decided to call that MILF...or are acronyms way too 2007?


----------



## SvK

Concerning beauty contests.......

The word "Beauty Contest" ughhhh

Is it just me, or is the whole concept of such a contest shallow, sexist and utterly stupid? All of the above I believe.....now what does it say about the possible future VP's character that she would even actively pursue such competition.

I mean really.

SvK


----------



## SvK

Not to mention the Hypocrisy of Palin. She is an Evangelical Christian. Is vanity not considered one of the seven sins?

SvK


----------



## Christian Marcussen

SvK @ Sun Aug 31 said:


> Concerning beauty contests.......
> 
> The word "Beauty Contest" ughhhh
> 
> Is it just me, or is the whole concept of such a contest shallow, sexist and utterly stupid? All of the above I believe.....now what does it say about the possible future VP's character that she would even actively pursue such competition.
> 
> I mean really.
> 
> SvK



Come on SvK! Your starting to sound like Abe. Seriously what kind of a silly thing is that to comment on? Personally I like my leaders to be human... being in a beauty contest as a young woman means she is human. How can that take anything away from her, or in any way saw anything about her abilities as a VP? She has lots of flaws in my opinion, but being in a beauty contest? Come on! 

Rise above it =o


----------



## Robobino

She won a cunt test...

Isn't it specified in the Ten Commandements, that "You shall not kill moose"?...


----------



## Fernando Warez

SvK @ Sun Aug 31 said:


> Concerning beauty contests.......
> 
> The word "Beauty Contest" ughhhh
> 
> Is it just me, or is the whole concept of such a contest shallow, sexist and utterly stupid? All of the above I believe.....now what does it say about the possible future VP's character that she would even actively pursue such competition.
> 
> I mean really.
> 
> SvK



I'm with you a 100% on this one.


----------



## Christian Marcussen

Ok. Perhaps it's because I'm not a purist American. But judging someone for being in a beauty contest 20+ years ago is to me shallow at best. 

It's like judging Obama for not taking his studies serious as a young man, or doing drugs. What matters is who they are today, not who they were as "kids"... 

Young people have fun, and have other priorities than they do in their adult life. That does not in anyway impair them in their adult life (in my opinion). 

If that is the best the Obama camp can throw at her things are looking bad. Not to mention I find these attempts at character assaisination distasteful. If you want to attack her, attack her on her policies and her beleifs - your not Republicans! Remember that. 

Btw Obama needs to get his stories straight. It's fine he goes on the offensive, but when he starts using lies and distortions it makes me loose sympathy for him, and he starts to look like the very people he is against. 

I cringe whenever he uses the "McCain says 5 million a year is rich" argument. Likewise in his speech at the DNC he paired McCain with comments made by his staff, which McCain clearly and swiftly denounced. Obama needs to rise above that, like you guys should. Don't go Abe on us


----------



## artsoundz

[quote="Robobino @ Sun Aug 31, 2008 4:22 am"

Isn't it specified in the Ten Commandements, that "You shall not kill moose"?...[/quote]

you're confusing that w/Jay Ward's !st commandment "Thou shall not kill Moose and Squirrel"

I tend to agree with Christian on this. When I was a kid in the 50's and 60's -Miss America was huge in this country. It's also always been a target for the shallow sentiment and I tend to lean that way myself. We did as kids. Howver. it is a cultural institution and I think the same could be said of professional organized sports. 

So- it's Alaska. It's a way up for many young women, an very likely their first introdiction to some real life politics. Many contests offer scholarships as well. And, frankly, on a more esoteric level, most people seem to be involved in a beauty contest one way or the other.. Not to mention the historical perspective. The whole idea of Beauty contest seem to me a part of human nature. But. to me. in this country- the importance of beauty and sex has reached an all time high (or low), So it's tempting to make that a target.( edit- deleted satirical yet tasteless comment)

BTW=The issue of her child actually being her daughter's child- that took me by surprise and if true, is significant. I guess we'll see- but it does sound like National Enquire craziness. Is there REALLY any credibility to this?


----------



## SvK

Christian Marcussen....

I am not a reborn church-going christian....I'm pointing out that all these extreme Christians aren't measuring up to any of their own beliefs...My point is that no mortal Human Being can!....Which is why they always get themselves in trouble. Larry Craig, Televangelists that have affairs or are gay.... etc, etc. In my view extreme Christianity it's every bit as creepy as scientology.

That's what I'm saying....

SvK


----------



## artsoundz

SVK_any credible links or info to the Sarah Palin/Daughter issue that you brought up?


----------



## Fernando Warez

> Ok. Perhaps it's because I'm not a purist American. But judging someone for being in a beauty contest 20+ years ago is to me shallow at best.



20 years is a long time and she may very well be good at what she does. But you'd think they could find someone better than an ex beauty queen to run the US. :roll: What about an actor? :lol:


----------



## Fernando Warez

hey! I'm all for using women as object.

Right baby? ...now get on your knees! :lol:


----------



## José Herring

I'm about to get even more shallow. Every time I see those two together it looks like they should be running for state assembly or president of the PTA.

The president of the US is the main ambassador to the world. I just can't see these two as world leaders.


----------



## artsoundz

SvK @ Sun Aug 31 said:


> Christian Marcussen....
> 
> I am not a reborn church-going cgristian....I'm pointing out that all these extreme Christians aren't measuring up to any of their own beliefs....
> 
> That's what I'm saying....
> 
> SvK



well- that's a fact. I've just spent time researching this baby thing. Somethings not right about this... I think it deserves a look even if it's not true. Her behavior, specifically her traveling during a late, incredibly risky pregnancy- just the way it all went down- is appalling. 

I have also read a lot comments from parents of Downs syndrome children. Being a Vice President or even campaigning for one doesn't fit with Down Syndrome parenting MUCH less taking over the presidency should that happen.

What's interesting is in this process of researching- one finds out a lot more about her performance and core beliefs. I'd advise researching the authors of whatever articles you might find. If one eliminates the obviously liberal or conservative links- there is enough info to raise some serious questions about her. 

In the end- I have a hard time understanding how McSame picked her over what seems to be obviously better choices. I think this is a major blunder/bad decision that paints him as out of touch, cynical and patronizing with the American people and capable of making fundamentally destructive mistakes.


----------



## Abe

Nick,

you said
"Abe, you've already been bumped from two threads 
because you won't stop this frustratingly stupid crap. 
This is your warning not to make it three. 

I'm getting really tired of saying the same
thing over and over: if you want to discuss any issues, 
please go right ahead. But the other stuff 
belongs somewhere else, such as an outhouse"

You call this a 
discussion on policy?

I'll pass along this 
double standard to the admin's.


----------



## artsoundz

josejherring @ Sun Aug 31 said:


> I'm about to get even more shallow. Every time I see those two together it looks like they should be running for state assembly or president of the PTA.
> 
> The president of the US is the main ambassador to the world. I just can't see these two as world leaders.



Yeah- or Time Share salespeople from hell.


----------



## JonFairhurst

On a talking head show today, one commentator said that Palin's knowledge of the oil industry will be key. She will fight for drilling and ANWR, and off the North Slope. And this will create jobs.

The people of Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania and West Virginia must be cheering. We'll get new jobs! 

Too bad they'll have to live above the Artic Circle year round to get one.


----------



## SvK

Obama / Biden 08


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

> So why isn't Obama beating the pants off of McCain in the polls?



Richard, there are two answers for that.

1. Because the poll you're talking about was before his last speech. (Plus an extra half answer: who knows how accurate the polls really are or how the questions were framed. But that half answer could go either way.)

2. Because of what Al Gore said about that with both barrels blazing: sometimes the best marketers have the worst product.

I'd go farther and say that most conservative ideas are simplistic and shallow, and by their nature that makes them easier to fit on a bumper sticker.

All political campaigns these days are centered around simple themes. Take what Jon's saying as an example: "it creates jobs." Republicans have been using that saying for years to justify policies with a total lack of environmental responsibility, in fact it's a dead tip-off that when a Republican says that, he or she is talking about some short-sighted crap!

Obviously it's much harder for the Democrats to sell the idea that investing in our next energy economy is going to create jobs in the long run, because that takes a full sentence.

It's hard - and depressing - to fathom that anyone really is that unsophisticated, but it's obviously true. Otherwise how could half the voters possibly have voted for George Bush A SECOND TIME?! People clearly don't vote in their own self-interest, at least not on a consistent basis.


----------



## SvK

[quote:26badbde76="josejherring @ Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:58 am"]I'm about to get even more shallow. Every time I see those two together it looks like they should be running for state assembly or president of the PTA.

The president of the US is the main ambassador to the world. I ò¬   ƒ³|¬   ƒ³}¬   ƒ³~­   ƒ³­   ƒ³€­   ƒ³­   ƒ³‚­   ƒ³ƒ­   ƒ³„­   ƒ³…­   ƒ³†­   ƒ³‡­   ƒ³ˆ­   ƒ³‰­   ƒ³Š­   ƒ³‹­   ƒ³Œ­   ƒ³­   ƒ³Ž­   ƒ³­   ƒ³®   ƒ³‘®   ƒ³’®   ƒ³“®   ƒ³”®   ƒ³•®   ƒ³–®   ƒ³—®   ƒ³˜®   ƒ³™®   ƒ³š®   ƒ³›®   ƒ³œ¯   ƒ³¯   ƒ³ž¯


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

"It's a myth that somehow it's the mother that's the better parent."

Not the better parent, of course, but they do have a different connection than we have! I think the myth comes from ancient Rome (the rape of the Sabines), but it may be earlier than that.

And yes, overturning Roe v. Wade would be really bad.


----------



## choc0thrax

I haven't read most of these posts as my policy is to not read any that are longer than 2 sentences but has anyone noticed Palin seems like a character out of Fargo? I love that her sons name is Track.


----------



## Abe

We still haven't heard any of 
Obama's accomplishments.

Let me help out..

part-time lecturer (not professor)

'community organizer'
(accomplishing what)

State Senator
no succesful legislation authored or sponsored

US Senator - half his time in office
running for office.

and charismatic speaker

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fgctsioi ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pqutz5AS ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M6x1H08 ... re=related

Btw, the race is McCain vs. Obama
people vote top of ticket

do a little research and you will 
find experienced VP candidates of the last 40 years
were on the losing ticket.

Therefore, your logic is flawed.


----------



## Fernando Warez

It always amaze me how well organized the GOP is. What a political machine? They are evil as hell but they seem to have unlimited fund and resources... Especially when it comes to smearing. :lol: 

But it's so sad as they set the tone of a campaign and no real issues get to be discussed.

...And nothing changes.


----------



## Abe

Fernando ,

what's amazing is how you can not
name one accomplishment Obama
has to show for...


----------



## Fernando Warez

Abe @ Sun Aug 31 said:


> Fernando ,
> 
> what's amazing is how you can not
> name one accomplishment Obama
> has to show for...



Don't worry Abe. I'm not really an Obama fan or believer.


----------



## SvK

James Dobson......
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Dobson

Hey Dobson, you prayed to God for rain to wash out Obama's historic night...

....Instead God has cancelled the Republican convention...HA!

SvK


----------



## SvK

Some of Obama's many accomlishments in his 11 years in elective office:

His bold legislative work on the Illinois Death Penalty, and how he made a difference between life and death:
http://www.icadp.org/page236.html

His sponsorship of a bill that brought health insurance to 150,000, including 70,000 uninsured Children, again, during his time serving in the Illinois Statehouse
http://mediamatters.org/items/200712170003

His work on both the Immigration bill during his time in the US senate and his sponsorship of Ethics legislation (something he did both while in the State House, and in the Senate) that called for some of the most impactful reform regarding lobbyists since Watergate (as he likes to term it):
http://feingold.senate.gov/~feingold/releases/07/01/20070108.html (http://feingold.senate.gov/~feingold/re ... 70108.html)

SvK


----------



## SvK

Sarah Palin......says she "opposed the bridge to nowhere project in Alaska"....

She was for it, before she was against it.
http://www.adn.com/sarahpalin/story/511471.html

SvK


----------



## SvK

MY FAVORITE...priceless

Here is Palin's response to a candidate questionnaire for the Alaska 2006 gubernatorial race:

Are you offended by the phrase “Under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance? Why or why not?
Palin: Not on your life. If it was good enough for the founding fathers, its good enough for me and I’ll fight in defense of our Pledge of Allegiance 

Ok.

First, the Pledge of Allegiance was not written by the Founding Fathers. It was written much later. Secondly, the words "under God" were not originally part of the Pledge. "Under God" was added even later.

SvK


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Other things Obama has accomplished: graduating from Harvard Law School, where he was the president of the Harvard Law Review; teaching Constitutional law for years at U Chicago; becoming a state senator; becoming a senator; giving a motherfu of a speech at the 2004 DNC that electrified everyone and propelled him to becoming the Democratic nominee for President this time; winning the 2004 primary election against an extremely capable, bright, and formidable opponent; giving an amazing speech last Thursday that made some of the brightest and best politicians we've seen in the past generation (including both Clintons - and remember, Bill Clinton was a Rhodes scholar, not some half-wit who fell off the turnip truck) pale in comparison. That speech also showed how much he's grown over the course of the primaries, because he's become a great candidate.

And I guess one should add that being the first black presidential primary winner and rising up from his disadvantaged upbringing is also a pretty incredible accomplishment.

You don't have to agree with Obama, but it's totally inappropriate to say he's accomplished nothing. The guy deserves a lot of respect, and for some - excuse me - total ass who won't even use his real name here to sneeze at him as if he's a complete loser is just ridiculous.


----------



## artsoundz

Great job, men. There's going be a little something extra in your paychecks this month.

Take the night off and be sure to turn in your time cards. 
We'll need you back here first thing in the a.m.


----------



## SvK

Barack and Biden on 60 minutes tonight.....
That's MY team 

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/08/30/60minutes/main4400811.shtml (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/08/ ... 0811.shtml)

SvK


----------



## SvK

Video of Sarah Palin as Sportscaster.....
http://thepoliticalcarnival.blogspot.co ... ports.html

.....What was Obama doing at this time? Oh yeah, head of the Harvard Law Review.....

One heartbeat away from the Presidency.....Anyone can do it.

SvK


----------



## Robobino

Mary was fifteen when she had Jesus... And she ended up marrying a cuckold...


----------



## Abe

Polls show no bounce for Obama
post convention.

Seems I'm not the only one 
who wasn't impressed with
Obama's speech thursday.

On the other hand, McCain
and Palin will demonstrate
how you break the 50% threshold
this week.

Btw, orating speeches
written by a 26 year old
qualify you to be commander in chief?

I find it very amusing hearing the 
'lack of experience arguement' from the left. 
Palin is more qualified for the Vp slot.
than Obama as a Presidential candidate.
Despite you trying to kill off McCain,
as you were trying to with Cheyney
and his heart problems.
NewsFlash...
Cheyney survived the past 8 years
with out a hitch.

Btw, svk practice what you preach,
when you resort to a filthy smear from a
leftist website to present your 'facts',
Before spreading vicious lies about
people's personal life, think twice.

Obama "Lay off my wife"


----------



## midphase

"Just announced that Sarah Palin's 17 year old daughter is 5 months pregnant. "

Wow...I guess that's what happens when you're too busy running around trying to be a politician and have no time to be a mother!


----------



## midphase

"Polls show no bounce for Obama 
post convention. "

I have no idea what polls you're watching Abe (probably Fox News) but that is not true:

http://www.nypost.com/seven/08292008/ne ... 126607.htm

(actually you must not be looking at the Fox News polls afterall):

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/08/28/gallup-poll-gives-obama-convention-bounce/ (http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/08/28 ... on-bounce/)


----------



## SvK

concerning 17 year old's Pregnancy.........Yup when mom and church teach you that contraception is EVIL, this is what you get......

The Gift That Keeps On Giving....

wow

at a loss for words.

SvK


----------



## SvK

Palin for ‘Bridge to Nowhere’ before she was against it (Boston Herald)

http://news.bostonherald.com/news/national/politics/2008/view.bg?articleid=1116208&srvc=home&position=emailed (http://news.bostonherald.com/news/natio ... on=emailed)

SvK


----------



## artsoundz

SvK @ Mon Sep 01 said:


> concerning 17 year old's Pregnancy.........Yup when mom and church teach you that contraception is EVIL, this is what you get......
> 
> The Gift That Keeps On Giving....
> 
> wow
> 
> at a loss for words.
> 
> SvK



Something is still so fishy about all of this. It doesnt seem plausible that McCains camp knew of this beforehand. It's not as if it was old news within the Palin family- they knew it was coming down at a crucial time for McCain. 

I bet he took a meeting with Brittany Spears' sister and came away convinced children having children was a positive role model for American families. 

The spin is going to be most interesting to say the least.


----------



## Abe

Polls show no bounce for Obama 
post convention. "

"I have no idea what polls you're watching Abe (probably Fox News) but that is not true:"

midphase...

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/31/ ... index.html

Svk,
choosing to not murder a baby
isn't as controversial as
being friendly with an unrepentant
(when you believe the US government is Evil this
is what you get)
terrorist who bombed the pentagon,
and whose group murdered police officers.

I understand how radical your thinking is
but the majority of American's are church
goers who have love for their country.


----------



## SvK

Abe.....why so desperate?

poor little Abe......

SvK


----------



## Abe

SvK @ Mon Sep 01 said:


> Abe.....why so desperate?
> 
> poor little Abe......
> 
> SvK



You seem so desperate.
Let's talk policy.
How about experience.
This is the best you have
to make your case.

LOL!


----------



## SvK

Artsoundz.


Maybe we are over-estimating Camp McCain.....Maybe McCain just did what he always ends up doing: Going against all rational advice given to him and being prone to snap-judgments....

Here is my take: They were set to roll out Pawlenty up until Obama's speech....Then the speech..........McCain BLINKS!! "We can't win this, we are screwed, we can only win with Religious FREAKs like Abe, let's go with that Palin woman!" But senator she has not been vetted.."I don't care.... just do it, it will be fine!"

that's what I think happened.

SvK


----------



## Abe

svk,

agaiin demonstrating your ignorance.
she was being vetted from a year ago.
I guess if your liberal media didn't know
then it can't be true.

Please don't talk about vetting...
Obama, who had 20 years
to vet his radical pastor.

midphase here is some more for your confrimation

CNN, Rasmussen Polls Confirm “No Bounce” For Obama


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

I wonder: if we all just agreed with Abe, wouldn't he go away eventually?


----------



## Abe

Ned,

I am highly impressed with
your ability to debate effectively.


----------



## midphase

Now I know why McCain picked Palin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RN5xbWtNSU

I guess Cindy is starting to get a bit too old for his taste.


----------



## SvK

Abe, you should move to Salem......The Salem of 1662....you'ld fit right in, you pious, small-minded, little pea-brain......

.......One thing is certain, if there is such a thing as a "ticket to upstairs", you're not gettin' one.

SvK


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

midphase @ 1/9/2008 said:


> Now I know why McCain picked Palin:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RN5xbWtNSU
> 
> I guess Cindy is starting to get a bit too old for his taste.



That's more than a bit of stretching. His eyes, IMO, are focused on some text that she's holding. My guess is that it's a reminder of the number of houses he owns, in 128-point type.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

Abe @ 1/9/2008 said:


> Ned,
> 
> I am highly impressed with
> your ability to debate effectively.



Thanks Abe. I really enjoy reading your always-spot-on posts. Please continue, we're all learning a lot!


----------



## Abe

explain this midphase
CNN, Rasmussen Polls Confirm “No Bounce” For Obama

Listen and learn...

“Let me be as clear as possible,” said Obama,
“I think people’s families are off-limits and 
people's children are especially off-limits. 
This shouldn't be part of our politics. 
It has no relevance to Gov. Palin’s performance as governor,
or her potential performance as a vice president.”


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

We are listening and we are learning. Thank you for sharing your wisdom. Please, more, more, more!


----------



## Abe

Not my wisdom dear man,
Obama deserves the credit for his words.


----------



## SvK

From CBSoll: Obama-Biden Holds 8-Point Lead 
Obama-Biden: 48
McCain-Palin: 40

http://thepage.time.com/2008/09/01/poll-obama-biden-take-8-point-lead/ (http://thepage.time.com/2008/09/01/poll ... oint-lead/)

SvK


----------



## SvK

Secessionist Sarah: VP pick Sarah Palin and the Alaska Independence Party

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/9/1/4231/18477/878/581881 (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/9/1/ ... 878/581881)

SvK


----------



## SvK

USA-Today/Gallup Poll
Obama leads 50%-43%
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/e ... titialskip


In the head-to-head race between the candidates, Obama now leads 50%-43% among registered voters. In the USA TODAY poll taken Aug. 21-23, the Illinois senator held a four-point lead.

SvK


----------



## artsoundz

Abe @ Mon Sep 01 said:


> Btw, orating speeches
> written by a 26 year old
> qualify you to be commander in chief?



There is nothing wrong with being smart and talented at 26. Einstein was 26 when he formulated his relativity theory. 

any 6th grader can in less than 10 minutes find 20 examples of 2o something intellectuals, artists etc that have changed and shaped the world. In fact, there are a couple twenty somethings V.I members that fit the bill.

google Jon Favreau. He works VERY closely with Obama on speeches. 

another weak abeism.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

> Let's talk policy



Abe, we've been talking policy and people have answered every one of your ridiculous troll questions many times. Yet you ignore the answers and continue trolling the same questions, which means you have nothing else to say.

As co-admin I'm not sure how much more of this we're expected to take.


----------



## Jack Weaver

Actually, the Rasmussen Poll surveys a category of individuals called 'likely voters' and is relatively accurate.

I can't recall exactly what the populations are that CNN and USA Today polls track. Someone might want to look that up. If either of them are using respondents from their own websites or subscribers the liklihood of accuracy would be suspect - other than revealing the opinions of their own readers.


----------



## artsoundz

I think you've done an admirable job here, Nick. I couldn't possibly guess what a solution to abe's style of "communication" would be. 

I have to say that my sense is abe's motivation to post isnt about his politics, it's more about getting enjoyment from creating angst and disrupting this forum. His handle, I believe is a smarmy referance to Abe Lincoln and considering his posts, it suggests bigotry and racism- but that may be my interpretation and if I'm wrong-please forgive that comment. But I'd bet the farm on it. 

But even more important, there is no effort whatsoever to join in on music discussions. This alone separates him/her from literally every member here. There have been plenty of examples of ultra conservative/liberal posts that create a certain amount of angst, but these are from members that are, after all, brothers in music and committed to the "musicians helping musicians" philosophy of V.I. Not so abe.

I do think it's reasonable to suggest some kind of a poll, timeout, ignore button or whatever. I loathe to suggest banning, but considering abes style it's the kind of ugly behavior reminiscent of the only banned member I am aware of.


----------



## JonFairhurst

My wife and I watched a bit of the shortened Republican convention today. We were both surprised as how homogeneous (white, mostly male, middle-aged) the delegates were, compared to the Democratic delegates at last week's convention. One Republican delegation all wore the same exact cowboy hat. Give me conformity, or give me death!

I don't know about the other states, but here in Washington State, we vote for an equal number of men and women delegates at every level (precinct, congressional district and state) by rule. 

As to diversity, we tally the groups that we will send to the national convention, and recommend that we fill the final at-large delegate spots with people from underrepresented groups.

As it turns out, the Obama delegates met all of the diversity goals during the earlier rounds - without any prompting, goals or quotas. The Clinton delegates nearly met their diversity goals as well.

And this is in Washington State - we're far from the most diverse population in the US.

My wife said it well. The Republicans don't strive to represent the people - the actual people. They strive to protect power and privilege. 

They certainly don't strive to reward work. They didn't even respect Labor Day.


----------



## SvK

BUSH / CHENEY is more competent than McCAIN / PALIN


----------



## SvK

The Team!


----------



## Abe

Is this a freudian slip?

Biden said:"Today is the moment for me as a United States senator
running for president to put aside the national politics and 
focus on what's happening down there in the Gulf Coast."

running for president?

First Obama introduces Biden as the next president,
Now you got Biden believing he is running for that office.
----------------------
Btw,
Kudos to Obama's handling
of the Palin smear in a dignified manner.


----------



## Thonex

Abe @ Mon Sep 01 said:


> Is this a freudian slip?
> 
> Biden said:"Today is the moment for me as a United States senator
> running for president to put aside the national politics and
> focus on what's happening down there in the Gulf Coast."
> 
> running for president?
> 
> First Obama introduces Biden as the next president,
> Now you got Biden believing he is running for that office.
> ----------------------
> Btw,
> Kudos to Obama's handling
> of the Palin smear in a dignified manner.



No... a Freudian slip is saying one thing and meaning your mother.


----------



## SvK

Obama GETS his 50%

In the head-to-head race, Obama leads 50%-43% among registered voters. In the USA TODAY poll taken Aug. 21-23, the Illinois senator held a 4-percentage point lead.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/e ... titialskip

SvK


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

Freudian slip is right, Abe! You and I know that Biden is just Bide-ing his time, until the Dems realize that they should have never chosen Barry O'Bama as their candidate. 

Abe, thanks to you most of us are going to finally see the light (I know I have). Just keep those amazing posts coming. And that biting sarcasm of yours, it's such a powerful way to get your points across! 

My new hero? Sarah P's daughter:


----------



## SvK

Ned....funny...3 weeks ago McCain tries to link Obama to Spears.....Camp Obama does nothing......AND McCain manages to link himself to Spears without even trying.....

SvK


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

"BUSH / CHENEY is more competent than McCAIN / PALIN"

Competent at what?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

> Actually, the Rasmussen Poll surveys a category of individuals called 'likely voters' and is relatively accurate.
> 
> I can't recall exactly what the populations are that CNN and USA Today polls track. Someone might want to look that up. If either of them are using respondents from their own websites or subscribers the liklihood of accuracy would be suspect - other than revealing the opinions of their own readers.



My experience with political polls is that they invariably frame all the questions in a leading way, so usually the people asking the questions don't get very far when they call up and survey me. I tell them "not applicable" or "none of the multiple choices explains my opinion" and they end up getting frustrated. Most of the time I don't even bother - I tell them I'm too busy.

But at best they're just snapshots at that instant. There's always a margin of error due to sampling, and the responses are self-limiting to one category: people who could be bothered to answer a poll.

Especially after what happened in 2000, I'm very cynical indeed about political polls. Plus I think they bring down the level of the elections.


----------



## SvK

Nick.....

that's my point......

Bush/Cheney are completely Incompetent....yet are more competent than the even-less competent teaming of McCain/Palin.

Just when you thought it could not get any less competent than Bush/Cheney...here comes McCain/Palin

SvK


----------



## JonFairhurst

The wild card in all this polling data is young voters. 

My kids will never answer a phone poll, since they use cellphones, and don't have land lines. But two of the three will vote for Obama. The third is too young.

The polls don't reflect the current voter registration drives, nor do they predict how many new registrants will follow through.

One thing for sure, young voters will be more numerous than in recent years.


----------



## madbulk

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Sep 01 said:


> Actually, the Rasmussen Poll surveys a category of individuals called 'likely voters' and is relatively accurate.
> 
> I can't recall exactly what the populations are that CNN and USA Today polls track. Someone might want to look that up. If either of them are using respondents from their own websites or subscribers the liklihood of accuracy would be suspect - other than revealing the opinions of their own readers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My experience with political polls is that they invariably frame all the questions in a leading way, so usually the people asking the questions don't get very far when they call up and survey me. I tell them "not applicable" or "none of the multiple choices explains my opinion" and they end up getting frustrated. Most of the time I don't even bother - I tell them I'm too busy.
> 
> But at best they're just snapshots at that instant. There's always a margin of error due to sampling, and the responses are self-limiting to one category: people who could be bothered to answer a poll.
> 
> Especially after what happened in 2000, I'm very cynical indeed about political polls. Plus I think they bring down the level of the elections.
Click to expand...


That's all true. Plus respondents want to please the pollster. It's human nature -- on the whole at least. They answer the questions the way they think the pollster wants. It's lousy information.

I'm fully prepared for example that a lot of people who respond favorably to Obama in polls may then not pull the lever for a black candidate when they're alone in the booth. I'm also fully prepared to be favorably surprised. In any event I think the polls will tell us little.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

I agree with you 100%, Brian. I think that Obama needs to be ahead by at least 7-10 points to make up for those last-minute-omg-not-a-black-prez narrow-minded voters.


----------



## SvK

first time voters will put us waayyyyy over the top...not reflected in polls.......I know, I know....Dean,Kerry Gore (didn't work for them)....But none of them were Barack Obama.

SvK


----------



## artsoundz

I have a friend who is traveling all over the country and europe with his son's band (Subpop records) 

The young crown is overwhelmingly for Obama and are excited about voting.


----------



## JonFairhurst

*What's the difference between Sarah Palin and a Moose?*

What's the difference between Sarah Palin and a Moose?

When it comes to foreign policy experience, nothing.

---
What's the difference between Sarah Palin and a Moose?

When it comes to contraceptives, nothing. Moose children can't get contraceptives either.

---
What's the difference between Sarah Palin and a Moose?

When it comes to abstinence, nothing. It's not effective for moose either.

---
What's the difference between Sarah Palin and a Moose?

When it comes to abortions, nothing. Moose aren't allowed to get abortions when raped either.

---
What's the difference between Sarah Palin and a Moose?

When it comes to bridges, nothing. Moose bridges don't go anywhere in particular either.

---
What's the difference between Sarah Palin and a Moose?

When it comes to meeting with McCain, nothing. McCain hadn't met any Moose more than once before August 29th either.

---
What's the difference between Sarah Palin and a Moose?

When it comes to The Union, nothing. Moose don't think of Alaska as being part of the United States of America either.

---
What's the difference between Sarah Palin and a Moose?

When it comes to energy, nothing. Moose don't invest in new energy technology either.

---
What's the difference between Sarah Palin and a Moose?

When it comes to jobs, nothing. No Moose has ever created a job in a big city either.

---
What's the difference between Sarah Palin and a Moose?

When it comes to the vice presidency, nothing. Moose don't know what the vice president of the United States of America does either.


----------



## Abe

Breaking News!

"The Gallup daily tracking poll has found 
that since the conclusion of the convention, 
Obama has risen 4 percentage points in the polls,
to lead McCain 49 percent to 43 percent today. 
That's a slightly smaller uptick in the polls than
the 5- to 6-point bounce earned by a typical party nominee, 
by Gallup’s measure, since 1964."

ROFL!

(smaller uptick in the polls then typical bounce earned
by a party nominee SINCE 1964)

here is some news not jokes,
that are sure to thrill you...

"It appears that the post-convention bounce
he earned may have already peaked. 
On Saturday, Gallup reported Obama
was ahead by 8 percentage points.
By Monday, that lead had shrunk to 5 points."


Gallup the most accurate pollsters out there 

Keep up the good work.
Your smearing is proving to be
quite effective.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

I know my snoring is effective. But thanks for keeping us in the Truth Loop. =o :wink: 

Time to go shoot some wolves from a helicopter and prepare baby food, sorry Mr Karzai.


----------



## JonFairhurst

Abe @ Tue Sep 02 said:


> Keep up the good work.
> Your smearing is proving to be
> quite effective.



I just wrote the moose jokes this morning. And they already have an effect? Man, the Internet is quick! 

---
What's the difference between Sarah Palin and a Moose?

Nothing. Nobody vets a moose either.


----------



## JonFairhurst

What's the difference between Sarah Palin and a Moose?

Nothing. Moose don't teach evolution in science class either.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

Jon, you know I love ya, but...

ENOUGH WiTH The FreAKIN MOOSE ALREADY!! We got more than enough up in these parts.


----------



## SvK

My Mom gets MAD and EVEN!

My mom (a lifelong conservative) called me today and said:

"I can't believe McCain has sold us out to the Religious-Right....I am deeply ashamed and will 100% vote for Obama/Biden this year!"

This is her 
http://gallery.me.com/svonkampen#100019 ... olor=black

There are plenty of moderate, sensible Republicans out there and they don't like this Palin pick one bit!


Thanx for taking a stand mom, and welcome to our team 

SvK


----------



## Fernando Warez

So how's the angry left doing tonight?


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

Nice looking couple, Steven.


----------



## SvK

Ned,

Thanx 

SvK


----------



## SvK

Obama hits 50% mark in Gallup poll
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13094.html

Barack Obama met the 50 percent threshold for the first time Tuesday in the Gallup daily tracking poll, a symbolic hurdle that until now had eluded the Democratic nominee. 

Obama 50
McCain 42

(it will likely swing back again....convention bounces usually do...but nice nonetheless)

SvK


----------



## artsoundz

Fernando Warez @ Tue Sep 02 said:


> So how's the angry left doing tonight?



Fernandon't, Do you live in this country?


----------



## SvK

"What's the difference between Sarah Palin and a moose? The Moose has been abroad."

SvK


----------



## artsoundz

Hmmm...Not true. I'm pretty sure Sarah's been a broad.


----------



## Fernando Warez

artsoundz @ Tue Sep 02 said:


> Fernando Warez @ Tue Sep 02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So how's the angry left doing tonight?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fernandon't, Do you live in this country?
Click to expand...


Don't you realize i was jocking? I just heard president Bush talk abou the ''angry left'' and got a good laugh out of it. :lol: I'm on the left by the way. The far left according to Fox news.


----------



## SvK

I've got one testicle on the left, and one on the right......

SvK


----------



## artsoundz

Fernando Warez @ Tue Sep 02 said:


> artsoundz @ Tue Sep 02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fernando Warez @ Tue Sep 02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So how's the angry left doing tonight?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fernandon't, Do you live in this country?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Don't you realize i was jocking? I just heard president Bush talk abou the ''angry left'' and got a good laugh out of it. :lol: I'm on the left by the way. The far left according to Fox news.
Click to expand...


Fernando, I sincerely apologize. Totally missed that. I'm a putz.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

"The far left according to Fox news"

That's Faux News, please.

But I don't think you're so much far left wing you are far left field.


----------



## JonFairhurst

Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Sep 02 said:


> Jon, you know I love ya, but...
> 
> ENOUGH WiTH The FreAKIN MOOSE ALREADY!! We got more than enough up in these parts.



Fair enough.

Years ago, I was at Yellowstone, and there was a moose at the edge of the lake. To get a good picture, I decided to wade out into the lake, get low and snap the shot. I figured the moose wouldn't attack me in the water.

A few days after I got home, I saw a nature show - and they showed a moose running at about 40 mph through lake water!

Be careful up there in the great white north!

BTW, what's the difference...

Moose don't have passports either.


----------



## artsoundz

Moose are extremely dangerous and kill people all the time. I guarantee you, if they had passports, they would just travel to other places and kill there as well. 

THIS is why we should eat them.


----------



## artsoundz

Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Sep 02 said:


> Jon, you know I love ya, but...
> 
> ENOUGH WiTH The FreAKIN MOOSE ALREADY!! We got more than enough up in these parts.




uh...you gonna eat that? cuz if you're not...


----------



## Fernando Warez

I love moose. Always though they looked like big gentile animals. 

One day I'm gonna have my own pet moose, is that far left field enough for ya? lol...


----------



## JB78

Wow...

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article20672.htm (http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... e20672.htm) (click the link for video)

She's freaking scary, Jerry-Falwell-scary.


"Palin's Church May Have Shaped Controversial Worldview

By Nico Pitney and Sam Stein

02/09/08 "Huffington Post" -- - Three months before she was thrust into the national political spotlight, Gov. Sarah Palin was asked to handle a much smaller task: addressing the graduating class of commission students at her one-time church, Wasilla Assembly of God.

Her speech in June provides as much insight into her policy leanings as anything uncovered since she was asked to be John McCain's running mate.

Speaking before the Pentecostal church, Palin painted the current war in Iraq as a messianic affair in which the United States could act out the will of the Lord.

"Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending [U.S. soldiers] out on a task that is from God," she exhorted the congregants. "That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God's plan."

Religion, however, was not strictly a thread in Palin's foreign policy. It was part of her energy proposals as well. Just prior to discussing Iraq, Alaska's governor asked the audience to pray for another matter -- a $30 billion national gas pipeline project that she wanted built in the state. "I think God's will has to be done in unifying people and companies to get that gas line built, so pray for that," she said."


The sad part is that I believe this will just increase her popularity with the christian right.

If a politician in Sweden would say something like this or that he/she believes in intelligent design they would be the laughing stock of the country, and no one would ever take them seriously again. 

I'm all for freedom of religion but PLEASE separate it from politics.
0oD


----------



## Christian Marcussen

>8o


----------



## wonshu

Hehehe.... food for thought:

http://www.neocrusaders.com

A little documentary we've been cooking up...

Europe isn't quite as peaceful as everyone thinks...

Best
Hans


----------



## madbulk

JB78 @ Wed Sep 03 said:


> I'm all for freedom of religion but PLEASE separate it from politics.
> 0oD



Yeah, that ain't gonna happen the way you mean it. For someone as religiously driven as she, the casual references to God's involvement in earthly affairs are just a matter of course. It's not reflexive to separate the two.

And yes, almost all of these revelations that repel the left will actually endear her to her base. The daughter thing? A net positive for them. If you're expecting her to flop tonite? Start preparing yourself. Every time you think to yourself "OMG, she's gaffed," re-consider it.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

What really matters to the US electorate? Check out this http://www.theonion.com/content/video/poll_bullshit_is_most_important (short video).


----------



## madbulk

Yup. And we got us eight pages full already. Though our numbers are really puffed up by Abe's line length issues.

Abe, what is the deal with that??


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Abe is taking a vacation from this thread - he can't answer.


----------



## Robobino

"A moment for the history books"...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YooKkyikXw0&eurl


----------



## wonshu

Robobino @ Wed Sep 03 said:


> "A moment for the history books"...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YooKkyikXw0&eurl



L - O - L


----------



## madbulk

wonshu @ Wed Sep 03 said:


> Robobino @ Wed Sep 03 said:
> 
> 
> 
> "A moment for the history books"...
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YooKkyikXw0&eurl
> 
> 
> 
> L - O - L
Click to expand...


+1 The rarely seen sincere and literal L-O-L.


----------



## José Herring

The fact that somebody like Palin can get even near the presidency is quite frightening! I'm sure the rest of the world is watching on pins and needles now.

Boy if she does make it, I think it's going to be time to invest in a good bomb shelter. Or better yet, I lived in Switzerland for a month. Nice place. Peaceful. Good performing arts...hmmmm.

Holy war? For God's sake beeatch!! What does she think she's going to accomplish with that kind of thinking? McCain/Palin would be the end of the empire. Unrestrained holy wars and certainly more terrorist attacks against America.

I don't care how liberal Obama is. Voting for that other ticket is just suicide. 

Jose


----------



## JB78

josejherring @ Wed Sep 03 said:


> The fact that somebody like Palin can get even near the presidency is quite frightening! I'm sure the rest of the world is watching on pins and needles now.
> 
> Boy if she does make it, I think it's going to be time to invest in a good bomb shelter. Or better yet, I lived in Switzerland for a month. Nice place. Peaceful. Good performing arts...hmmmm.
> 
> Holy war? For God's sake beeatch!! What does she think she's going to accomplish with that kind of thinking? McCain/Palin would be the end of the empire. Unrestrained holy wars and certainly more terrorist attacks against America.
> 
> I don't care how liberal Obama is. Voting for that other ticket is just suicide.
> 
> Jose



 +1


----------



## Fernando Warez

JB78 @ Wed Sep 03 said:


> josejherring @ Wed Sep 03 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The fact that somebody like Palin can get even near the presidency is quite frightening! I'm sure the rest of the world is watching on pins and needles now.
> 
> Boy if she does make it, I think it's going to be time to invest in a good bomb shelter. Or better yet, I lived in Switzerland for a month. Nice place. Peaceful. Good performing arts...hmmmm.
> 
> Holy war? For God's sake beeatch!! What does she think she's going to accomplish with that kind of thinking? McCain/Palin would be the end of the empire. Unrestrained holy wars and certainly more terrorist attacks against America.
> 
> I don't care how liberal Obama is. Voting for that other ticket is just suicide.
> 
> Jose
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +1
Click to expand...


+2


----------



## Fernando Warez

Ned Bouhalassa @ Wed Sep 03 said:


> What really matters to the US electorate? Check out this http://www.theonion.com/content/video/poll_bullshit_is_most_important (short video).



I love these guys! :mrgreen:


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

There might be a new US Civil War brewing. >8o I mean has your country ever been as divided? Has there ever been so much hatred?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

"I don't care how liberal Obama is."

I do care, and I wish he were able to be more liberal.

"The fact that somebody like Palin can get even near the presidency is quite frightening!"

You said it! Very scary.


----------



## artsoundz

it's always been there- the ignorance and hatred. When the economy perks up, we'll see less of the overt reactions. It's a big blame game which suggests people arent too bright and rarely think things through. 

I still think we should sell Canada and make some dough that way.


----------



## JonFairhurst

*US women voters turned off by Palin's pick: poll*

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5g10yMHTRWB1ghQ8OLKEKxdHvWiQQ (http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5g10 ... EKxdHvWiQQ)

Note, that this is not a scientific poll, and this is still early. But still, 800 isn't a trivial sample size, and phone polls skew toward older (landline) voters.

_"50 percent of women voters felt McCain picked Palin out of political expediency and not because he believes she has the experience to do the job."_

Still, there's the moose vote...


----------



## madbulk

Nick is gonna love the way these questions were phrased. Forget this poll. Just forget you ever saw it.

Edit: 
"Some 45 percent of Clinton fans thought Palin was not very attractive as a candidate..."
What the hell is that? As opposed to what? "Very attractive?" What were the other options that the other 55% split up?


----------



## midphase

Something funny to ponder:


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

Kaysdude,

MILF is so old skool already. Try this instead:

http://www.vpilf.com/


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

madbulk @ 3/9/2008 said:


> What books was she thinking of banning?



She probably wanted to start with Darwin's On The Origin Of Species. :mrgreen:


----------



## SvK

"It's Over"
http://thepoliticalcarnival.blogspot.co ... -mike.html

As the station goes to commercial, 3 republican pundits are recoròB   „ B   „B   „B   „B   „B   „B   „B   „B   „B   „B   „B   „B   „B   „B   „B   „B   „B   „B   „B   „ B   „!B


----------



## Robobino

If "it's over", then we can expect the war with Iran to start very soon...


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Huh?


----------



## Christian Marcussen

Just saw her speech. She made me wan't to puke in my mouth... But she is a good speaker, and damn she is feisty! Talk about fighting back 

I think she hit a homerun and I think it's a bad idea to underestimate her (politically - not qualificationwise).


----------



## SvK

"McCain / Palin: A Bridge To Nowhere"

SvK


----------



## Christian Marcussen

SvK @ Wed Sep 03 said:


> "McCain / Palin: A Bridge To Nowhere"
> 
> SvK



Abe?


----------



## SvK

Huh?

idea for a bumper-sticker:

McCain / Palin: A Bridge To Nowhere

SvK


----------



## SvK

I'm nothing like Abe.....I give you that she delivered that speech very well. I'll also give you that it was incredibly nasty in tone. Dismissive and disrespectful. Lest we forget that just yesterday Obama said :

"The attacks on Sarah Palin concerning her teen-age daughter are completely unacceptable and people forget that I am the son of a teen-age mom."

Palin did NOT have the grace to acknowledge Obama DEFENDING the Palin name.......She showed ZERO class.......She came across as the popular girl in High-School that makes fun of the less than popular.

The good guys/gals will win.

ENOUGH

mocking community organizers. MLK was a community organizer.

SvK


----------



## artsoundz

Christian Marcussen @ Wed Sep 03 said:


> Just saw her speech. She made me wan't to puke in my mouth... But she is a good speaker, and damn she is feisty! Talk about fighting back
> 
> I think she hit a homerun and I think it's a bad idea to underestimate her (politically - not qualificationwise).



no kidding. Scares me to think all that bravado might actually work for them.


----------



## Christian Marcussen

> Huh?
> 
> idea for a bumper-sticker:
> 
> McCain / Palin: A Bridge To Nowhere
> 
> SvK



Yeah... I can see it - and it's both smart and funny. But that post, combined with the post before it just seemed a bit "Abe" like  - just like the posts about Palin's baby not being hers. Just smears with no real discussion. 

While it does not really bug me, I just think that we should hold ourselves to the same standard as we expect of Abe.

And no you are NOTHING like Abe. You do indeed make posts with substance, and you also come here to discuss music!  . Just be careful that your posts don't get Abe-like (imho).


----------



## midphase

" I just think that we should hold ourselves to the same standard as we expect of Abe."

I really think that this is an issue. Democrats always seem to get their asses handed to them because they always try to be the better men, to take the high road! McCain promised to keep his campaign fair and clean....yet he's running a record number of attack ads like he said he wouldn't do.

Isn't it time that maybe we all start acting like Abe? Guys like him seem to get the attention of the working class and mid-America way more than guys like us who try to be fair and respectful.


----------



## SvK

The list of people that will be deeply OFFENDED by the attacks on community organizers:

Teachers
Nurses
Social Workers
Councilors
PTA members

anyone ever helped by community organizers

SvK


----------



## artsoundz

Wouldnt be worth acting like them but I understand the need to be more aggressive. SVK may have been over the top w/ the baby story- but, as hard as as I try to see the other side, I can honestly say that the other side is so dangerously wrong that I can cut some slack here.

I posted with abe. I knew abe; abe was a (not)a friend of mine. SVK, you're no abe.

(Thanks and a hat tip to Loyd Bentsen.)


----------



## Christian Marcussen

midphase @ Thu Sep 04 said:


> Isn't it time that maybe we all start acting like Abe? Guys like him seem to get the attention of the working class and mid-America way more than guys like us who try to be fair and respectful.



Perhaps, and fine by me - I was not the one bitching about Abe. 

But then I don't think it's fair to ban him from threads. If we play the same game we should play by the same rules.


----------



## SvK

I apologize for posting that garbage about the baby....I was way out of line...You may have also noted that earlier yesterday I deleted all of those posts.

SvK


----------



## midphase

No apology needed....I don't think I've heard any apology coming from Republicans for calling Obama a closet Muslim!


----------



## artsoundz

consider the abe posted crap over and over. Innuendo, and just plain erroneous "facts"and would literally never discuss. I cant imagine an apology for links and rumors he's posted.


----------



## madbulk

midphase @ Thu Sep 04 said:


> No apology needed....I don't think I've heard any apology coming from Republicans for calling Obama a closet Muslim!



Well those republicans are idiots. Idiots abound. Always have, always will. Didn't see the posts before Steven went back and zapped but his apology, if not needed, is still nice. You wanna persuade and not just whoop it up with people who already agree with you? It works better from the high ground.

And even when it doesn't... you gotta be able to live with it.


----------



## tgfoo

navidson @ Thu Sep 04 said:


> After Bush getting re-elected I really don't have much faith in anything anymore.



Neither do I, and I live here. :roll:


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Just so everyone knows to be fair and not taunt the departed, Abe has been bumped from this and the other thread. He thinks it's because of his opinions, but that's not it at all - it's because he trolls without ever posting anything to advance the discussion (despite several requests followed by warnings).


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Alaska Barbie:

Rather than all the bullshit about families, it's time to attack McCain and Palin for the horrible policies they want to enact - things like continuing our tough guy impatient foreign policy that has eroded our alliances in the world and united our enemies, giving tax breaks to oil companies so they can drill where they shouldn't, not wanting to move us to the next energy economy (Palin doesn't even believe global warming is man-made), not wanting universal healthcare, planning to appoint yet more horrible judges to take away womens' right to choose and make sure shallow religious propaganda is taught in our public schools...


----------



## JonFairhurst

Last night after the Palin speech, one commentator on CNN said that this is a new culture war - rural against urban.

Let's hope Obama doesn't fall into that trap. Urban people need food and resources from prosperous people. And rural people need prosperous urban centers to provide demand for goods, as well as capital, tools, processing and distribution.

We're all in this together, folks. Shared prosperity tastes sweetest.


----------



## midphase

Hot off the presses:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/0 ... 23696.html

Could this story have any substance behind it? If they're approaching this the way they approached the John Edwards affair which they broke, then perhaps yes!


----------



## JonFairhurst

The National Enquirer? What is the world coming to?

If true, Palin is toast. And the Enquirer gains credibility(!)

If false, the GOP will scream about mistreatment even louder than they already are. As is the Enquirer is the MSM.

Overall, the Palin pick is just plain weird. Six days ago, she was a nobody on the national stage. In four months, she could be the VP. In five months she could be The Leader of the Free World™ - without a single vote.

The Democratic candidates - including both Obama and Biden - debated countless times over nearly a year. Palin will be in a single debate before November 4th.

It's not that she hasn't paid her dues. It's more like getting engaged BEFORE a blind date.

The GOP can't complain a whit about the media and Palin. We've only got TWO MONTHS to figure out who she really is, and the media is the only group in a position to do the job.

I don't think Palin will be granting an interview with VI Control any time soon.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

I don't care who she really is. She's said enough to frighten the hell out of me already.

No thank you.


----------



## midphase

"The National Enquirer? What is the world coming to? "

You should know that the Enquirer was the first to break the news of Edwards having an affair and possibly an illegitimate child. The first reaction from people was exactly what you just said....however they backed up their claims very well and ultimately Edwards 'fessed up. It's probably a big reason why it's not an Obama/Edwards ticket right now.

So since then, I tend to take the Enquirer a bit more seriously than before.


----------



## JohnG

This is funny, except that it's unfortunate that a comedy show offers the most trenchant rebuttal of political defensiveness:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index ... ender-card


----------



## Christian Marcussen

JohnG @ Thu Sep 04 said:


> This is funny, except that it's unfortunate that a comedy show offers the most trenchant rebuttal of political defensiveness:
> 
> http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index ... ender-card



LOL - great vid!


----------



## José Herring

midphase @ Thu Sep 04 said:


> Hot off the presses:
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/0 ... 23696.html
> 
> Could this story have any substance behind it? If they're approaching this the way they approached the John Edwards affair which they broke, then perhaps yes!



I'm not a God fearing man, but I suddenly find myself on my knees praying that this story is true.


----------



## JB78

Palin isn't the only feisty one...

http://scienceblogs.com/neurotopia/2008/09/most_accidentally_inappropriat.php (http://scienceblogs.com/neurotopia/2008 ... opriat.php)



Sorry couldn't resist posting this pic...


Great clip John, I have watched the "Daily Show" since 2004, great show and should be mandatory viewing for all americans :wink:


----------



## JonFairhurst

In case anybody missed it, today Republican lobbyist Jack Abramoff was sentenced to four years in prison. He has already served 22 months in Florida.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/09/04/abr ... index.html

So, what was all that talk against lobbyists last night? Don't they know that lobbyists are McCain's top advisers? 

And what was McCain's role with Abramoff? McCain led the cover up.

http://www.dengre.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/1/8/222648/0915/57/433195 (http://www.dengre.dailykos.com/storyonl ... /57/433195)







The Republican Party reminds me of the fake town they built in Blazing Saddles. It might look like an old-time cowboy movie, but it's just a facade.

http://www.scvhistory.com/gif/lw2145i.jpg


----------



## JonFairhurst

Cheney Colleague Admits Bribery in Halliburton Oil Deals

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2008/09/04-0


----------



## JustinW

You're all a bunch of Hockey Mommin' Moose Hunters.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

Speaking of which: ONE MONTH TO GO BEFORE THE NHL SEASON BEGINS!!! =o o-[][]-o


----------



## choc0thrax

Anyone just watch that John McCain video of his history? God that music was garbage. Sounded like someone payed cats to do it and threw them a casio.


----------



## Thonex

Ned Bouhalassa @ Thu Sep 04 said:


> Speaking of which: ONE MONTH TO GO BEFORE THE NHL SEASON BEGINS!!! =o o-[][]-o



NOW we're talking.

THe Kings need to sign O Sullivan and a few others... and we'll most certainly do better than 2nd-to-last-place. :lol:


----------



## tgfoo

Please tell me McCain didn't just say all of this...

"They (Russia) invaded a small democratic neighbor to gain more control over the worlds oil supply, intimidate other neighbors, and further their ambitions of reassembling the Russian empire... But we can't turn a blind eye to aggression and international lawlessness that threatens the peace and stability of the world and the peace of the American people..."

... after praising our current president, who basically did the exact same thing to Iraq 5 years ago, at the beginning of his speech. I'm just hearing things, right?


----------



## madbulk

Hockey sucks.
Ten days till Omnisphere! =o =o =o 

Ok. Hockey doesn't suck. I just can't skate.


Canada though.... a bunch of good fer nothi....


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

Was that the Dallas theme during Palin's video?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

> "They (Russia) invaded a small democratic neighbor to gain more control over the worlds oil supply, intimidate other neighbors, and further their ambitions of reassembling the Russian empire... But we can't turn a blind eye to aggression and international lawlessness that threatens the peace and stability of the world and the peace of the American people..."



And why did the Russians feel their oats enough to do that?

Answer: because we have divided our friends (Europe) so there's no counterbalance to, as Zbniew Brzezhinski puts it, avoid "exciting their latent imperial tendencies." [We've divided our friends and united our enemies, as opposed to the opposite, which won the Cold War.]

This right there is why we need Obama and his patient foreign policy ideas rather than more hard-ass tough talking (with useless inflammatory missiles in Poland). What's he going to do, go punch Putin in the nose? Putin doesn't give a shit about all the talk! He's calculating what he can and can't get away with.

Impatience and muscle-flexing never works in international relations.


----------



## choc0thrax

tgfoo @ Thu Sep 04 said:


> Please tell me McCain didn't just say all of this...
> 
> "They (Russia) invaded a small democratic neighbor to gain more control over the worlds oil supply, intimidate other neighbors, and further their ambitions of reassembling the Russian empire... But we can't turn a blind eye to aggression and international lawlessness that threatens the peace and stability of the world and the peace of the American people..."
> 
> ... after praising our current president, who basically did the exact same thing to Iraq 5 years ago, at the beginning of his speech. I'm just hearing things, right?



Yeah I burst out laughing at that part. That and the person with the "environmentalists for McCain sign"

Hahaha and right now on MSNBC that blonde haired reporter reporting from a pile of balloons.


----------



## artsoundz

choc0thrax @ Thu Sep 04 said:


> tgfoo @ Thu Sep 04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hahaha and right now on MSNBC that blonde haired reporter reporting from a pile of balloons.
Click to expand...


He led into the russian comment with soon to be nuclear terrorist Iran.

Fear mongering and the tribe chanting "drill baby, drill". Soon enough-MSNBC's "singed blond" reporter reporting from a pile of rubble. 

is it me or is there an abundance of fear and religion like no other RNC?


----------



## SvK

"The Republican party is a party about ownership. Well, it's time for them to own their failure."

-Barack Obama


McCain/Palin: A Bridge To Nowhere


----------



## midphase

"God that music was garbage. Sounded like someone payed cats to do it and threw them a casio."

OMG...I just watched it again...you're right...it sounded like someone still using the Roland Sound Canvas!

WTF? You'd think they'd throw some real money at something like that, and get one of our good guys from around here to do it...or at the very least some good quality library cue.


----------



## rgames

This forum needs some acoustic treatment because

THIS IS ONE SERIOUS ECHO CHAMBER!


----------



## midphase

What's the difference between this thread and and echo chamber? This thread wears lipstick!

Wait....no, that doesn't sound right.


----------



## artsoundz

You dont have to yell. we can hear just fine.


----------



## artsoundz

midphase @ Thu Sep 04 said:


> What's the difference between this thread and and echo chamber? This thread wears lipstick!
> 
> Wait....no, that doesn't sound right.



I hate to write LOL but that's what I'm doing right now.


----------



## SvK

Using Casio Mock-Ups is a very calculated effort to not appear "elitist".

SvK


----------



## Brian Ralston

midphase @ Thu Sep 04 said:


> WTF? You'd think they'd throw some real money at something like that, and get one of our good guys from around here to do it...or at the very least some good quality library cue.



They probably spent all their music budget licensing Goldsmith's RUDY score that they played after the speech (and also last Friday when Palin was first announced).


----------



## JonFairhurst

Ned Bouhalassa @ Fri Sep 05 said:


> ...the history of those breakaway regions of Georgia sure is a complicated one, one that the Bushies cannnot, IMO, really understand.


It's okay. I'm sure that Sarah Palin has a deep understanding of the dynamics of the region. Alaska is next to Russia, you know!


----------



## Fernando Warez

> Can you imagine how the US would have reacted if a few weeks after the Iraq invasion (sorry liberation), Putin's right-hand man had been sent to Baghdad with a billion for Al Queda? And not covertly, but out in the open, in all the papers?



Actually you've said it, it was a provocation. I believe these crazy neocons are trying to provoke a conflict with Russia. They've written about how they would like to have a go at Russia in the PNAC. And for those who haven't figured it out yet, Georgia attacked first, and i believe they are backed by the US. I also hear about Israeli involvement I'm not sure.


----------



## madbulk

I'm wondering what, less generally, is behind everybody's fervor.
If you had to narrow it to one or two focal points that outweigh all others. Why are you for one candidate or the other?


----------



## JonFairhurst

A presidential race is rarely about the candidates - they're the facade. It's about the backers and the team that they put together.

Bush and McCain are backed by oil companies, arms dealers and bankers. The Bush team has implemented torture, stomped on the Constitution and claimed executive privilege to hide their actions from the American people. McCain's top economic adviser is a bank lobbyist who pushed for the Enron speculation loophole. 

By contrast, Obama doesn't owe many debts. Much of his administration would include people who worked in the Clinton administration. Think what you may about Clinton, but the agencies acted pretty competently, honestly and openly when he served. 

If McCain had told Bush off to his face in public and demanded his impeachment, I'd respect him as a maverick. But he di'unt. Maverick is just a brand.

It's time to clear EVERYBODY out of the administration, not just Bush and Cheney.


----------



## José Herring

Not voting for Democrats as against Republicans. Time for that party to suffer its ultimate demise. Its policies don't work. Its us against them attitude is killing people. Now they're trying to start the cold war all over again.

Maybe in the ashes of the deep conservative log cabins they can come up with a party that's worthy of calling themselves American again. But, until then, time to put the nail in the coffin of a dead decaying corps that's seen its day 20 years ago.

best,

Jose


----------



## madbulk

Already this is even more interesting than moose jokes.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

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----------



## José Herring

Been reading up on Benito Mussolini's The Doctrine of Fascism. Interesting read. Talks about how Fascism seeks to warp all of the social institutions into the service of the state. Namely religion, art, science, and the individual himself. Then talks about how the individual should place country before himself. Goes into depth on the legislation of morality based on religion. ect....

Got me thinking. The Republicans are following a path pretty close to this doctrine. I remember Newt Gingrich and his republican revolution talked about much of the same things that's in this doctrine. Going on the principle that there's nothing new only the history that we've forgotten. What do you think the chances are that this doctrine was the guiding doctrine in the Republican party.

Anybody?

Now our Fascist party is moving ahead in the polls with talk of Religion, Patriotism and since it's America you can't forget money. One good thing about the Mussolini fascist is that they weren't too money driven. So maybe the fascist where a little less corruptible. 

Jose


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

Dark days ahead, dark days.

The Republicans are tied with the Dems even though they have an extreme ticket (soccer mom as Pres-in-waiting?!!), the economy is tanking, and they're following on the heels of 8 years he-who-shall-not-be-named-until-after-the-election. Nuts!

And up here, the Conservatives will most probably get a majority due to the fact that, while they're the only party on the right, the center-left vote is divided into 4 parties.

The 90s will be remembered as the golden years.


----------



## José Herring

Yes. It's all so clear now. It all makes sense. The Reps are big on "defense". What does our armed forces do. They put all are best scientist and our best engineers into the service of making more war machines. The Reps talk about "patriotism" then they use that word to sell the idea of sending American troops anywhere in the world and if you speak out then you are some how "unAmerican".

Pallin is a prime example of this. My jaw droped with she was asking that university class to pray for a 30billion dollar pipeline and then calling the war against Iraq a "Holy war".

The Republican signs at the convention said "country first". This country was built on the idea that the individual comes first.

Call Obama a socialist but in my opinion socialism is better than fascism. Not that I'm a big fan of either but if it's between socialist demos and fascist republican's I'll take health care over the use of religion and patriotism to justify atrocities. 

Got to hand it to the Reps though. Pretty slick. If it took me this long to realize this then it's going to be way over the heads of most of the uneducated republican base.


----------



## rgames

Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> The Republicans are tied with the Dems ...



Actually, probably ahead.

The fact that Obama and McCain have been tied in the polls is a testament to Obama's weakness as a candidate. He should be beating the pants off of any Republican candidate. Especially given the overt media bias in this race.

What gives?

My guess is that people are growing weary of the Obama zealots, both in person and on the air (witness MSNBC's actions re: Matthews and Olbermann). Demoagoguery seldom works in a campaign of this magnitude; people have too much time to stop and think.

Obama has everything going for him; McCain has everything going against him. 

And yet McCain is squeaking out a lead.

Whom would you rather have as president?

rgames


----------



## Fernando Warez

I'm glad you finally see the light Jose. I've been meaning to start a thread about this very subject a while back. Beautiful Naomi Wolf wrote a book about this subject tittled The End of America. She talk about 10 step to fascism etc.. Interesting stuff. 
You can listen to her talk about it here.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=RjALf12PA ... re=related

and here:

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=b131iN3hOyk

I think she's pretty! Or did i say that already. ..and smart!


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

> Obama has everything going for him; McCain has everything going against him.



Hmm. One is black, his name rhymes with Osama, his middle name is Hussein, and his first name is Barack, more than 10% of Americans think he's a muslim, and all those people who can't tell Iraq from Iran think that he's from a foreign country called Iwahee; the other is white, his name is John McCain, he's a war hero, looks like the grandfather in a Rockwell painting, has the ultimate trophy wife and ticket partner, and was born into a family of admirals.

Advantage Obama? Yeah, right (no pun intended).


----------



## midphase

The answer is clear....the team who hasn't flip-flopped over the past 8 years:

McCain - Pro abortion in 2000, Anti abortion in 2008

McCain - Anti making tax cuts permanent in 2004 - Pro making tax cuts permanent in 2008

McCain - Saying that the Iraq war would be an easy victory in 2003, saying that the Iraq war would be a difficult fight in 2007 (and maintaining that he always felt that way)

Palin - Pro Alaskan pork $$$, then against it

Palin - Pro choice for her own family, Anti choice for everyone else.



Richard...what gives is that the Republicans have made an artform out of convincing people like you that they're out there to protect you. But unless you're a multi-millionaire CEO who is outsourcing to India, Republicans have not done anything to benefit you personally.

They keep saying that they are the best at protecting you....yet 9/11 happened on the Republican's watch, and since invading Iraq, terrorism is on the rise. Over 4000 American soldiers have died in Iraq, and over 30,000 have been wounded (official numbers), and yet McCain voted against increasing benefits for Military Veterans and their families. 

McCain and Palin's records speak for themselves, and anyone who is genuinely interested in doing some research into it as opposed to believing everything that gets spun off the mouth of their press person, will be able to clearly see that these two:

• Don't have the interests of most Americans in mind.

• Are not for a smaller government, but rather would prefer a bigger government which is more intrusive into your life.

• Do not have a sensible and appropriate foreign policy.

• Will not make your taxes any lower than they are.

• Will not make education any better (ask most teachers, and they will tell you that one of the biggest blunders in educational history have been the "No child left behind" policy).


Lastly....and I hope I am wrong on this....I really do....but to answer your question about "what gives".....I think the American public is still having a hard time adjusting to the idea that a black man could lead this country. I do believe that race is indeed playing a role in rural areas and southern states where there is still a lot of racial tension. Polls indicate that a sizeable chunk of the voting public is negatively impacted by the fact that Obama is a black man.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

midphase @ 8/9/2008 said:


> I think the American public is still having a hard time adjusting to the idea that a black man could lead this country. I do believe that race is indeed playing a role in rural areas and southern states where there is still a lot of racial tension. Polls indicate that a sizeable chunk of the voting public is negatively impacted by the fact that Obama is a black man.



So true. That's why I believe that the Dems will need to have a 7-10 point margin in order to make up for those people who will scare themselves into voting 'white' at the very last minute. 7-10 point lead. Tall order, I fear.


----------



## midphase

If people could see more of this McCain....I think they would be more likely to get over their racial bias:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CazKanlYDg


----------



## Fernando Warez

rgames @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Sep 08 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Republicans are tied with the Dems ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, probably ahead.
> 
> The fact that Obama and McCain have been tied in the polls is a testament to Obama's weakness as a candidate. He should be beating the pants off of any Republican candidate. Especially given the overt media bias in this race.
Click to expand...


I think people should not trust polls. You can cheat and steal elections by giving the masses the impression its a tight race and switch enough votes to the your candidate right at the end and nobody will notice. Accept those who watch exit polls. I've heard, according to exit polls, Kerry won by as much a 9 million votes in 2004. I don't remember where i got that.

The fact is it probably doesn't matter who you vote for when you have rigged voting machines... Without paper trail! >8o I mean what a joke! You get a receipt just about every where you go these days and they cant have voting machines with a receipts system? Come on! It obvious what these machines are for. You guys need to research this.


----------



## midphase

More fun McCain blunders....I guess Somalia doesn't count since they don't have any oil!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ajm5JTf7 ... re=related


----------



## madbulk

Fernando Warez @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> rgames @ Mon Sep 08 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Sep 08 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Republicans are tied with the Dems ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, probably ahead.
> 
> The fact that Obama and McCain have been tied in the polls is a testament to Obama's weakness as a candidate. He should be beating the pants off of any Republican candidate. Especially given the overt media bias in this race.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


I think people should not trust polls. You can cheaò„\   „©ð„\   „©ñ„\   „©ò„\   „©ó„\   „©ô„\   „©õ„\   „©ö„\   „©÷„\   „©ø„\   „©ù„\   „©ú„]   „©û„]   „©ü„]   „©ý„]   „©þ„]   „©ÿ„]   „ª „]   „ª„]   „ª„]   „ª„]   „ª„]   „ª„]   „ª„]   „ª„]   „ª„]   „ª	„]   „ª
„]   „ª„]   „ª„]   „ª „]   „ª„]   „ª„]   „ª„]   „ª„]   „ª„]   „ª„]   „ª„]   „ª„]   „ª„]   „ª„]   „ª„]   „ª„]   „ª„]   „ª„]   „ª„]   „ª„]   „ª„]   „ª„]   „ª „]   „ª!„]   „ª"„]   „ª#„]   „ª$„]   „ª%„]   „ª&„]   „ª'„]   „ª(„]   „ª)„]   „ª*„]   „ª+„]   „ª,„]   „ª-„]   „ª.„]   „ª/„]   „ª0„]   „ª1„]   „ª2„]   „ª3„]   „ª4„]   „ª5„]   „ª6„]   „ª7„]   „ª8„]   „ª9„]   „ª:„]   „ª;„]   „ª<„]   „ª=„]   „ª>„]   „ª?„]   „ª@„]   „ªA„]   „ªB„]   „ªC„]   „ªD„]   „ªE„]   „ªF„]   „ªG„]   „ªH„]   „ªI„]   „ªJ„]   „ªK„]   „ªL„]   „ªM„]   „ªN„]   „ªO„]   „ªP„]   „ªQ„]   „ªR„]   „ªS„]   „ªT„]   „ªU„]   „ªV„]   „ªW„]   „ªX„]   „ªY„]   „ªZ„]   „ª[„]   „ª\„]   „ª]„]   „ª^„]   „ª_              ò„]   „ªa„]   „ªb„]   „ªc„]   „ªd„]   „ªe„]   „ªf„]   „ªg„]


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

rgames @ 8/9/2008 said:


> Your points about Obama's race, name, etc. are very good. However, he's a media darling. And he's NOT a Republican. So, let's face it, that trumps everything else, don't you think?



Depends what media you watch. :wink: I'm convinced that Palin is now the media's darling.


----------



## madbulk

rgames @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Sep 08 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So true. That's why I believe that the Dems will need to have a 7-10 point margin in order to make up for those people who will scare themselves into voting 'white' at the very last minute. 7-10 point lead. Tall order, I fear.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not convinced of that - my guess is that folks who would have a problem with the race issue were not going to vote for Obama, anyway.
> 
> Your points about Obama's race, name, etc. are very good. However, he's a media darling. And he's NOT a Republican. So, let's face it, that trumps everything else, don't you think?
> 
> Even the Republicans don't like the Republicans...
> 
> rgames
Click to expand...


I can't go that far. Media darling, yes. Least popular president ever, probably. He's got a lot going for him. But my bet is no, it won't trump everything else. And I'd say Ned's guess is about right. 7-10 percent swing.
Yes, folks with a race problem were not going to vote for Obama anyway. But a huge chunk of those people are not ready to admit this to the pollsters, somewhat understandably. So, if I'm placing a bet? Obama's losing by quite a bit right now.


----------



## madbulk

Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> rgames @ 8/9/2008 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your points about Obama's race, name, etc. are very good. However, he's a media darling. And he's NOT a Republican. So, let's face it, that trumps everything else, don't you think?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Depends what media you watch. :wink: I'm convinced that Palin is now the media's darling.
Click to expand...


In a sense, sure. She's the viewing audience's darling. We know the three guys already. She's the interesting story for the time being. That's gonna fade.


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## midphase

"Who, exactly, are people "like me"?"

Median-income Americans who mostly live in smaller urban communities and who have been convinced that voting for anyone other than a Republican is "un-American". People who are worried about this country being under attack (despite the fact that they generally don't live in any areas that the supposed terrorists would find of interest). People who have been brainwashed by the same old "catchphrases" that Republicans are for smaller government, despite the facts pointing to the contrary.


"The 9/11 attacks were planned, funded, and initiated while Clinton was president. People forget that the first attack on the WTC was under Clinton's administration; he did a poor job of preventing the second. And the war in Iraq was initiated by Clinton, not Bush. People always forget that fact, also." 

Perhaps your fact-checking has omitted that Condoleeza Rice pretty much laughed at the idea that terrorists were planning an attack, and did nothing about it. Clinton was well out of office by the time 9/11 plans were heavily underway....when Bush could have certainly given some credence to all of the red flags that were popping up everywhere.

Bush 1 invaded Iraq the first time....and Bush 2 not to disappoint daddy...made sure he finished the job (except he hasn't). I'm not sure how you determine your "facts", but if you're implying that Hillary initiated the war by giving Bush W. that power, I think you know as well as I that the entire congress was completely bamboozled into this war by being presented with false information.


----------



## rgames

midphase @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> I'm not sure how you determine your "facts"



One way I determine my facts is by looking at the pubic record of proceedings in Congress. Look up the Iraqi Liberation Act, HR 4655, which states

"that it should be the policy of the United States to seek to remove the Saddam Hussein regime from power in Iraq and to replace it with a democratic government."

Signed into law by ... (drumroll) ... President Bill Clinton, October, 1998.

The first attacks on Iraq under this policy directive were conducted under Operation Desert Fox by the order of ... (drumroll) ... President Bill Clinton, December, 1998.

So Clinton made regime change in Iraq official US policy. And Clinton launched the first attacks under this policy.

Those are the facts to which I'm referring.

rgames


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## midphase

Well gee Richard....if you're going to quote HR 4655....why not quote the entire thing:

"Authorizes the President, after notifying specified congressional committees, to provide to the Iraqi democratic opposition organizations: (1) grant assistance for radio and television broadcasting to Iraq; (2) Department of Defense (DOD) defense articles and services and military education and training (IMET); and (3) humanitarian assistance, with emphasis on addressing the needs of individuals who have fled from areas under the control of the Hussein regime. Prohibits assistance to any group or organization that is engaged in military cooperation with the Hussein regime. Authorizes appropriations.

Directs the President to designate: (1) one or more Iraqi democratic opposition organizations that meet specified criteria as eligible to receive assistance under this Act; and (2) additional such organizations which satisfy the President's criteria.

Urges the President to call upon the United Nations to establish an international criminal tribunal for the purpose of indicting, prosecuting, and imprisoning Saddam Hussein and other Iraqi officials who are responsible for crimes against humanity, genocide, and other criminal violations of international law.

Expresses the sense of the Congress that once the Saddam Hussein regime is removed from power in Iraq, the United States should support Iraq's transition to democracy by providing humanitarian assistance to the Iraqi people and democracy transition assistance to Iraqi parties and movements with democratic goalsò„n   „®Ë„n   „®Ì„n   „®Í„n   „®Î„o   „®Ï„o   „®Ð„o   „®Ñ„o   „®Ò„o   „®Ó„o   „®Ô„o   „®Õ„o   „®Ö„o   „®×„o   „®Ø„o   „®Ù„o   „®Ú„o   „®Û„o   „®Ü„o   „®Ý„o   „®Þ„o   „®ß„o   „®à„o   „®á„o   „®â„o   „®ã„o   „®ä„o   „®å„o   „®æ„o   „®ç„o   „®è„o   „®é„o   „®ê„o   „®ë„o   „®ì„o   „®í„o   „®î„o   „®ï„o   „®ð„o   „®ñ„o   „®ò„p   „®ù„p   „®ú„p   „®û„p   „®ü„p   „®ý„p   „®þ„p   „®ÿ„p   „¯ „p   „¯„p   „¯„p   „¯„p   „¯„p   „¯„p   „¯„p   „¯„p   „¯„p   „¯	„p   „¯
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## madbulk

Herman Witkam @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> Who can you trust now that Bush turned into a commie.... McCain!
> 
> Apparently, these guys still think that Obama is a commie: http://commieobama.com/



Poor web wonks don't know their communists from their socialists.


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## Ed

The Angry John McCain Song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-ymHdbd ... re=related


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## midphase

"Yes, in fact I do! Bush got the job done."

And what a job!


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## madbulk

madbulk @ Fri Sep 05 said:


> I'm wondering what, less generally, is behind everybody's fervor.
> If you had to narrow it to one or two focal points that outweigh all others. Why are you for one candidate or the other?



I don't admire fervor for some reason.

Rgames, could I put it to you? Are you a republican from pillar to post, or are there a couple of areas that do it for you? Or is it the opposite of Jose -- a vote against the liberals. And it goes without saying, this is nobody's business but yours. There could be no more respectable answer than declining to answer.

But politics is screwy. It's EASY as hell to be a one issue voter. The system is rigged this way. The nation is split down the middle. It's gonna be very close, over and over and over again. Super duper unpopular president fighting an unpopular WAR for crying out loud. And it's gonna be very very close.


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## José Herring

The government take over of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the Patriot Act giving the executive branch more power to invade privacy, the war of aggression for financial gain. These things only prove that the Republicans have become more commie like than any party in American history. If you look at the hight of the Soviet Union with the KGB running espionage on their own citizens, ect for the "protection of the Soviet State" and the war against Afghanistan. We're now not much different than the enemy we use to hate.

Look to what people do and not to what people say. Read the Fascist Doctrine. Scarily similar to the Republican party platform.

To me this is a watershed moment in history. A time to put away that party once and for all. Shake it up. Move it out!

Jose


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## Nick Batzdorf

Richard, the key word is *thought* - diversity of *thought.*

What you're posting is not thought, it's right-wing diarrhea that requires a distinct lack of thought, with all due respect. It also requires that history be rewritten to fit right-wing rhetoric.

Saddam Hussein was not a sweetheart. His being there was not in our best interest, and everyone in the West and Middle East disliked him. The first Gulf War was launched because he was feeling his oats, and both the West and other countries in the Middle East joined in to get him out of Kuwait. There was more to it than that as there always is in the Middle East (the Saudis wanted him stopped, and the reason he invaded Kuwait is that they were flooding the market with oil, thus lowering the price at a time when he had just had a costly draw with Iran).

But the point is that all our allies were united against him, and we had Middle Eastern countries on our side too. Yet he was still a big PITA ten years later, and of course Clinton didn't like him any more than anyone else did - hence that resolution. Clinton was not an idiot, though, and George Bush 2 is way beyond that.

The thing to remember is that impatience does not work in international relations. This is one of the best examples of that.

George Bush 2 and his band of insane ideologues wanted desperately to invade Iraq regardless of the real world. The PNAC's famous letter signed by the entire band of hyenas proves that, but there are actual recordings of George Bush 2 suggesting to Tony Blair that we stage a phony military attack to justify invading Iraq. That's not liberal hype, that's a fact. So is all the lying that went along about WMD. It was all bullshit; Saddam was a nuisance, and we wanted to turn Iraq into a compliant, oil-pumping state that set an example for everyone else and forced them to become the same.

It was absolutely insane, and it showed a total lack of education about the history of the region. Remember, the colonial era only ended recently.

When 9/11 came, these horrible creeps had everyone scared to death and the wimpy Democrats voted o authorize this insanity because they didn't want to be seen as "soft on terror." And the rest is a historical disaster.

Clinton would never have divided our friends and united our enemies against us, as Zbniew Brzezhinski puts it. Bush has succeeded in weakening our prestige in the world immeasurably. We have no moral authority anymore. Clinton's line at the DNC is absolutely right: history has shown that we achieve far more with the power of our example than the example of our power.

I hope you take the time to get that, because I find it abhorrent that someone of your intelligence can go on spouting this obscene bullshit about what's going on in the world. There's no excuse for that kind of ignorance.

Sorry to get upset, but I find it incredibly frustrating how people can go on believing lies and voting for this madness to continue.


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## rgames

madbulk @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> Rgames, could I put it to you? Are you a republican from pillar to post, or are there a couple of areas that do it for you?



I don't carry an affiliation; I vote on the issues. For me, the major issues at the Fed level are national defense and macroeconomic policy. I tend to agree more with the Republicans on those issues.

On issues "closer to home" (e.g. education, support for the arts) I tend to favor the Dems. I'd prefer to see the Feds out of the way on those issues because they relate more to preferences within communities, which vary widely. I'd hate to see the US become one homogeneous state, so social policy needs to be left to the communities. However, there's no way every community could have its own armed services or isolated economy. So those issues must be addressed at the Fed level.

As I said elsewhere, I think Obama could win my vote one day. I just don't trust him yet. Maybe if he establishes a record of public service WITHOUT constant campaigning, I'll feel better about him. One of McCain's main points in his acceptance speech was that he learned to love his country while a POW. He admitted to being brash and self-centered before that time. I think Obama needs that awakening before he can be trusted to run the country with interests other than his own.

rgames


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

Patriotic. Who's underwear is more red, white and blue. That's what really counts. A strong, powerful leader, preferably with a flag pin (see North Korea, btw - they love pins there). Philosophy? That's for wimps. Compromises? Ditto. Small flags are for traitors. 

Sometimes I think the whole world is so macho, we're screwed. :cry: 

PS: I'm reading a fascinating/disturbing book called Inside The Kingdom: My Life In Saudi Arabia, by Carmen Bin Laden. I'm surprised there are any women there at all. They get treated worse than dogs. A country named after one family, with laws dating back to a time when it was ruled by ruthless Bedouins, where hatred is part of the school curriculum. Good buddies of the Bushies... Yuck! :shock:


----------



## rgames

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> What you're posting is not thought, it's right-wing diarrhea that requires a distinct lack of thought, with all due respect. It also requires that history be rewritten to fit right-wing rhetoric.



What history is that? Do you deny that Clinton signed the Iraqi Liberation Act? And do you deny that Clinton initiated Operation Desert Fox? And, for the record, these are facts that I found all by myself, thank you! I've never actually heard them brought up by anybody else, right-wing or otherwise. (Apparently, most other folks here are not aware of those facts, either...)

My point is that the desire to remove Hussein from power pre-dated Bush 2. Maybe he bungled the operation, but he didn't start it. To say that the war to remove Hussein from power is "Bush's War" is just plain wrong. That's all I'm saying.

Taking it a step further, the only thing we know for certain is that we don't know everything. Given that fact, how do you judge the actions of the Bush administration? What is Bush's motivation, other than to protect the American people?

Of course it's a terrible situation we're in. But what's the alternative?

Chemotherapy sucks, too. It makes people much worse off in the short term. But people take the hit in the interests of their long-term well-being.

rgames


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

rgames @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> midphase @ Mon Sep 08 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you not see a difference between what Clinton was trying to do, and what Bush did?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, in fact I do! Bush got the job done.
Click to expand...


I think you must be living in a parallel universe (o)


----------



## midphase

"I'm wondering what, less generally, is behind everybody's fervor."

I think the idea that in 2000 we heard the speech (smaller government, we're going to change washington, family values etc etc.) and they won.

Then in 2004 we heard the same speech with some added elements (patriotism, country first, we'll protect you, trust us, blah blah blah) and they won again.

The fact is that 8 years later, we find ourselves with more people than ever losing their jobs, more people than ever losing their houses, crappier privatized health care, the environment worse than before, more dependent on oil than before, bigger government, bigger pork spending, more lobbyists, and...quite frankly....less safe!

So in 2008, that is what's behind my fervor....the idea that these guys are trying to pull the same old shit again, using the same tactics, the same speeches, and the same bs negative campaigns that brought Kerry down.

Enough already!


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

> My point is that the desire to remove Hussein from power pre-dated Bush 2. Maybe he bungled the operation, but he didn't start it. To say that the war to remove Hussein from power is "Bush's War" is just plain wrong. That's all I'm saying.



Two very different things, as I thought I explained pretty clearly: wanting Saddam out of there, and launching a unilateral war that alienated all of our Western allies and united the entire Muslim world against us!

Do you not see the insanity there?

And what about the illegal and immoral lies by the Bush administration to the American public and Congress to sell this agenda? Is that the way you want your leaders to behave?! They're supposed to serve you, not mislead you!

[/quote]Taking it a step further, the only thing we know for certain is that we don't know everything. Given that fact, how do you judge the actions of the Bush administration? What is Bush's motivation, other than to protect the American people? [/quote]

Have you ever read the PNAC website? These people are cynical ideologues. I posted what their motivation is above. What I left out is war profiteering (read "Blackwater" by Jeremy Scahill if you want to be horrified), and also a general lack of education and sophistication about foreign policy.

They're amoral, cynical, impatient, and just bad news. That's why I say even McCain will be better, because he at least has good intentions and isn't a delusional dope - even if he's wrong about most things.



> Of course it's a terrible situation we're in. But what's the alternative?
> 
> Chemotherapy sucks, too. It makes people much worse off in the short term. But people take the hit in the interests of their long-term well-being.



In this case the whole world took the hit in the interests of their short-term well-being.


----------



## midphase

"One of McCain's main points in his acceptance speech was that he learned to love his country while a POW. He admitted to being brash and self-centered before that time. I think Obama needs that awakening before he can be trusted to run the country with interests other than his own."

Richard,

But with all due respect, how do you know that Obama hasn't had that type of awakening, not as a POW, but growing up in a country where everything was more challenging to someone like him, where he was asked to prove his worth many times over what others had to.

And on the counter-side....how do you know that McCain did indeed have this catharsis? How do you know that what is saying aren't just words typed by a speech writer in an effort to rile up the party?

Just some food for thought!


----------



## rgames

midphase @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> But with all due respect, how do you know that Obama hasn't had that type of awakening ...
> 
> And on the counter-side....how do you know that McCain did indeed have this catharsis?



Because McCain has had only four jobs in his 50+ years of public service. Obama has been at it about 11 years and run, what, four major campaigns? When does Obama actually serve the public?

That says to me that one man is committed to public service; one is committed to running campaigns. So, with scant evidence of sustained public service, I have a hard time getting behind Obama for the presidency of the US.

rgames


----------



## madbulk

rgames @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> madbulk @ Mon Sep 08 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rgames, could I put it to you? Are you a republican from pillar to post, or are there a couple of areas that do it for you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't carry an affiliation; I vote on the issues. For me, the major issues at the Fed level are national defense and macroeconomic policy. I tend to agree more with the Republicans on those issues.
> 
> On issues "closer to home" (e.g. education, support for the arts) I tend to favor the Dems. I'd prefer to see the Feds out of the way on those issues because they relate more to preferences within communities, which vary widely. I'd hate to see the US become one homogeneous state, so social policy needs to be left to the communities. However, there's no way every community could have its own armed services or isolated economy. So those issues must be addressed at the Fed level.
> 
> rgames
Click to expand...


Kool. Thanks. Sorry I was a little presumptuous.


----------



## rgames

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> What I left out is war profiteering (read "Blackwater" by Jeremy Scahill if you want to be horrified)



I've tried to get clarification on this one a number of times. How, exactly, does a person benefit more from war spending as President than in the private sector?

I'll let you in on a secret: war profiteers don't put people in the White House. They put people in Crystal City: that's where the influence peddling occurs and the real money changes hands.



Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> and also a general lack of education and sophistication about foreign policy.



OK - I'm going to restrain myself on this one. But, just for fun, I will mention Obama's comment that the UN should get together and officially renounce Russia's attacks on South Ossetia.

Perhaps a bit of education and sophistication about foreign policy would have prevented such an obviously moronic statement. (For those not aware, Russia is a permanent member of the UN security council and would, obviously, veto any such statement of position.)

rgames


----------



## madbulk

Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> PS: I'm reading a fascinating/disturbing book called Inside The Kingdom: My Life In Saudi Arabia, by Carmen Bin Laden. I'm surprised there are any women there at all. They get treated worse than dogs. A country named after one family, with laws dating back to a time when it was ruled by ruthless Bedouins, where hatred is part of the school curriculum. Good buddies of the Bushies... Yuck! :shock:



Yeah, I wouldn't be taking that "good buddies" thing too seriously, Ned. How bout, best of a bad lot where most of the oil is.


----------



## Fernando Warez

Patrick de Caumette @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> rgames @ Mon Sep 08 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> midphase @ Mon Sep 08 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you not see a difference between what Clinton was trying to do, and what Bush did?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, in fact I do! Bush got the job done.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think you must be living in a parallel universe (o)
Click to expand...


:lol: ....I needed a good laugh at that point cause i was just about to throw some insults!


----------



## Robobino

America is a neurosis, and the next election will change nothing about it, no matter who's elected...

Faith without empathy will bring you nowhere.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Profiteering from war spending: Dick Cheney. Two words. Bush isn't profiteering personally, but there's a number of Blackwater officials who have gone there directly from influential positions in the Bush administration. The politics involved with all these "private contractors" are absolutely horrendous. Read the book. It's very well researched, and while the author is definitely on the left, he backs up his opinions with facts. 

"OK - I'm going to restrain myself on this one. But, just for fun, I will mention Obama's comment that the UN should get together and officially renounce Russia's attacks on South Ossetia."

Richard! Now you're making me mad. Comparing one half-finished comment that came out wrong to the wrongful deaths of thousands of people is obscene. Do you really think that Obama doesn't know that Russia is on the Security Council? His point was that we need to reunite with our friends in the world; it's not possible for us to dictate what everyone else is supposed to do on our own.

Moreover, Richard, these maniacs LAUNCHED A WAR THAT HAS KILLED 4000 AMERICAN TROOPS AND COUNTLESS IRAQIS! It has, as I said, alienated our Western allies and united the entire Muslim world against us. The lack of education and sophistication I'm talking about is the whole idea that you're going to start a democratic domino effect by going in and killing some people. I'm repeating myself over and over: these people just got rid of the Europeans a few years ago! Before this they looked up to the U.S.; now they think - with good reason - that we're just another empire.

Anyone who still thinks this war was a good idea is either totally uninformed or a total imbecile. Sorry to put it that bluntly.

Gawd. Read "Second Chance" by Zbigniew Brzezhinski. He lays it all out, and if you read that you'll understand the Democratic platform much better. We have one more chance at regaining our positive, stabilizing influence in the world, and the only reason is that there's nobody else able to do it. But it's not going to happen if McCain gets in with his posturing and hawkish attitude. It will happen with Obama, because he understands that line of Clinton's inside out (the power of our example is more effective than example of our power).


----------



## midphase

I guess now that Abe is gone someone has to step up to that vacancy...


----------



## Ed

rgames @ Mon Sep 08 said:


> [
> OK - I'm going to restrain myself on this one. But, just for fun, I will mention Obama's comment that the UN should get together and officially renounce Russia's attacks on South Ossetia.



Huh? Russia didnt attack South Ossetia, Georgia did. The Russians were seen as liberators. The Georgian sneak attack killed near 2 thousand. They also cut off their water. What about condeming that?


----------



## JB78

Ed @ Tue Sep 09 said:


> rgames @ Mon Sep 08 said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> OK - I'm going to restrain myself on this one. But, just for fun, I will mention Obama's comment that the UN should get together and officially renounce Russia's attacks on South Ossetia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russia didnt attack South Ossetia, Georgia did. The Russians were seen as liberators. The Georgian sneak attack killed near 2 thousand. They also cut off their water. What about condeming that?
Click to expand...



Stop being sensible Ed, don't spoil their attempts at starting up the cozy Cold War again...it's the only sensible thing to have as a backup once the american people realize that the war on terror is just as stupid and useless as the war on drugs.

pssst...if you have a better and more scary idea, feel free to e-mail PNAC anytime...


----------



## JonFairhurst

After the cold war, the war on drugs and the war on terror run their courses, there's always Canada!


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

Ha! You can't even beat us in hockey! We can call on Celine to blast your army with her supernatural death shrieks. We can drown your soldiers in molten poutine. Steve Nash will fart in your faces, and your officers will turn into Cronenberg caterpillars. C'mon up in mid-winter, if you dare! :evil: :twisted: >8o


----------



## JonFairhurst

Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Sep 09 said:


> C'mon up in mid-winter, if you dare! :evil: :twisted: >8o


Now you know the real reason McCain selected Palin. You're surrounded! Your community organizers and moose are doomed!


----------



## Robobino




----------



## choc0thrax

Adam Mackay(Will Ferrell's writing partner) recently wrote something that's unfortunately probably true:


"Stop saying that!" my wife says to me. But this is not a high school football game and I'm not a cheerleader with a bad attitude. This is an election and as things stand now, we're gonna frickin' lose this thing. Obama and McCain at best are even in the polls nationally and in a recent Gallup poll McCain is ahead by four points. 

Something is not right. We have a terrific candidate and a terrific VP candidate. We're coming off the worst eight years in our country's history. Six of those eight years the Congress, White House and even the Supreme Court were controlled by the Republicans and the last two years the R's have filibustered like tantrum throwing 4-year-olds, yet we're going to elect a Republican who voted with that leadership 90% of the time and a former sportscaster who wants to teach Adam and Eve as science? That's not odd as a difference of opinion, that's logically and mathematically queer. 

It reminds me of playing blackjack (a losers game). You make all the right moves, play the right hands but basically the House always wins. I know what you're going to say " But I won twelve hundred dollars last year in Atlantic City!" Of course there are victories. The odds aren't tilted crazy, but there is a 51%-49% advantage. And in the long run, the house has to win. The house will win.

So what is this house advantage the Republicans have? It's the press. There is no more fourth estate. Wait, hold on...I'm not going down some esoteric path with theories on the deregulation of the media and corporate bias and CNN versus Fox...I mean it: there is no more functioning press in this country. And without a real press the corporate and religious Republicans can lie all they want and get away with it. And that's the 51% advantage.

Think this is some opinion being wryly posited to titillate other bloggers and inspire dialogue with Tucker Carlson or Gore Vidal? Fuck that. Four corporations own all the TV channels. All of them. If they don't get ratings they get canceled or fired. All news is about sex, blame and anger, and fear. Exposing lies about amounts of money taken from lobbyists and votes cast for the agenda of the last eight years does not rate. The end.

So one side can lie and get away with it. Now let's throw in one more advantage. Voter caging and other corruption on the local level with voting. Check out the article here on HuffPost about Ohio messing with 600K voters. If only five thousand of those voters don't or can't vote that's a huge advantage in a contest that could be decided by literally dozens of votes. That takes us to about a 52 to 48% advantage. 

I'm not even getting into the fact that the religious right teaches closed mindedness so it's almost impossible to gain new voters from their pool because people who disagree with them are agents of the devil. I just want to look at two inarguable realities: A) we have no more press and B) the Repubs are screwing with the voters on the local level.

I'm telling you, we're going to lose this thing. And afterwords we'll blame ourselves the same way we did with Gore and Kerry (two candidates a thousand times more qualified to lead than W Bush.) Just watch.. McCain wins by a point or two and we all walk around saying things like "Obama was too well spoken." "Biden wasn't lovable enough." "I shouldn't have split those eights." "Why did I hit on 16? Why?!" 

So what do we do?

1) We give definitive clear speeches like Biden and Obama gave the other day about how no one talked about any issues at the Republican Convention and how they outright lied. But we do them over and over again. 2) We use the one place where it's still a 50-50 game -- the internet -- as much as we can. 3) But most importantly we should bring up re-regulating the media and who owns it and what that conflict of interest is a lot more. By pretending there's no conflict of interest we're failing to alert the public that they're being lied to or given a looking at a coin at the bottom of a pool slanted truth. Every time a pundit or elected official is on any TV news program it should be a polite formality to mention that GE has made such and such billions off the war in Iraq by selling arms or that Murdoch is a right-wing activist with a clear stake in who wins and who taxes his profits the least. Disney, GE, Viacom, and Murdoch -- all want profits and the candidate and agenda that will get in their way the least. 

Obama and Biden should also create a "master sound bite sentence" and repeat it hundreds of times. It should be so true that even the corporations can't screw with it when it makes the airwaves. Here's my attempt: "Katrina, four dollar gas, a trillion dollar war, rising unemployment, deregulated housing market, global warming...no more." 

This race should be about whether the Republican Party is going to be dismantled or not after the borderline treason of the past eight years. But instead it is about making the word "community organizer" a dirty word and a beauty queen who shoots foxes from a plane. Someone is not in any way doing their job and it's the press. Or more specifically, that job no longer exists.

Probably the worst offenders are the pundits who take the position that it's all just a game and say phrases like "getting a post-convention bump" or "playing to the soccer Moms." This isn't a game of Monopoly or Survivor. There are real truths that exist outside of the spin they are given and have an effect on lives. 250,000 Iraqi civilians are dead because we let our reality be distorted by the most effective propaganda machine in fifty years, the corporate American press. Money and jobs are flying out of this country as our currency becomes worthless and we're talking about the fact that McCain is a veteran. If someone busted into your house and robbed you would you then forgive them if you found out they were a veteran? Of course not. So why are we forgiving McCain for selling out his country by supporting the Bush agenda? 

This is it folks. If McCain takes power we fade and become Australia in the seventies: a backwoods country with occasional flashes of relevance. Except we've got a way bigger military and we're angrier. People will get hurt and we'll pay the bill for the bullets. I'm telling you, unless we wake up, we're gonna lose this frickin' thing.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

The only thing I disagree with is "borderline" treason. Even suggesting to Tony Blair that we stage a military event to sell the invasion of Iraq is not borderline, it's treason.


----------



## rgames

choc0thrax @ Wed Sep 10 said:


> ...
> 
> I'm telling you, unless we wake up, we're gonna lose this frickin' thing.



The thing the Democrats seem to be missing is the fact that true influence relies on the confluence of thought in the emotional and rational parts of the brain. The rational element in their platform is certainly there but just hasn't come through. The essence of the Obama campaign seems to be "Look at how big the crowds are! Hooray! Obama is so inspirational! Yeah! Bush is an idiot! Yippee! Go Team!" Take a look at the pro-Obama posts on this forum!

People can only take that for a little while. There's a reason there are time limits on most sporting events...

Oh yeah, one element of my personal philosophy might also apply: Brevity is the Trademark of Genius. :lol: 

rgames


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

You haven't been listening to what Obama - and Biden - have been saying, Richard. The rational part is there in spades!

Have you read anything I've posted? It's not based on emotion, it's based on my taking the time to become informed about what's going on. Disagree with it if you want, but it's not irrational.


----------



## Fernando Warez

The guy is obviously right and i would add that you cant be a democracy without a free press. 

Also, people need to understand that things could not have gone that far without the complicity of the democrats. Maybe not all of them but enough of them. 

To be fair, i would say that anthrax letter targeting democrats only probably helped influence some of them.


----------



## rgames

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Sep 10 said:


> You haven't been listening to what Obama - and Biden - have been saying, Richard. The rational part is there in spades!
> 
> Have you read anything I've posted? It's not based on emotion, it's based on my taking the time to become informed about what's going on. Disagree with it if you want, but it's not irrational.



As I said, the rational part is definitely there. The problem is that the rational discourse has been drowned out by the chest-beaters. People don't like that sort of proselytizing. Well, people other than religious fanatics, but my guess is that's not the demographic the dems are after...

rgames


----------



## blue

rgames @ Wed Sep 10 said:


> The problem is that the rational discourse has been drowned out by the chest-beaters. People don't like that sort of proselytizing.



I disagree. Republican success over the last several years (and perhaps longer) can be attributed in large part to the GOP stranglehold on emotional tactics. Placards that read "Country First," thunderous chants of "USA" at political rallies, liberal media conspiracy theories, nationalistic propaganda, so called value votes, "you're either with us or against us," "we're more patriotic than you"…the list goes on and on. The Republicans have won by stoking pride and fear, by capitalizing on demos that prefer policy be influenced by religious belief than principles of liberty and pragmatism.

Sadly, Democrats are now giving in to these tactics. Now everyone seems to have to prove they're patriotic, family loving, god fearing Americans before they say a word about policy. For that I blame past Republican campaign successes.


----------



## midphase

"The problem is that the rational discourse has been drowned out by the chest-beaters. People don't like that sort of proselytizing. Well, people other than religious fanatics, but my guess is that's not the demographic the dems are after... "


Thank you for finally saying something that I can relate to. You are absolutely right...the Republican party is all about chest beating because that is what works with their followers. When Democrats engage in it, it doesn't work as well because people who are interested in their ideology don't react well to chest-beating!


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Richard, I agree with Blue, and another way of putting what he's saying is this: the game gets played at the level of the worst offender.

The Republicans have used fear to win two elections now. Another thing Zbigniew Brzezhinski pointed out in that book I mentioned is that all the great leaders we look up to have urged calm in a time of crisis - and during the Cold War the stakes were 150 million people dying in a matter of minutes, not a bunch of smelly lunatic tribesmen!

But on a more practical level, our elections have been reduced to bumper sticker slogans for years, and it's getting worse and worse. That especially has been the Republican appeal forever - it's much easier to deal with the complicated problems of the world in simplistic ways (i.e. club 'em over the head). That's what the Democratic side has had to compete with.

Drill!

Only criminals will have guns if we control them!

Tough on crime!

Build a fence to stop illegal immigration!

No child left behind!

Fight 'em abroad so we don't have to fight 'em here!

Tax cuts will trickle down!

And on and on.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Also, I want to repeat repeat repeat that Obama's charisma is a very positive attribute for a leader. Of course it takes more than that, but for the ability to get people excited to be taken as a negative seems incredibly stupid to me.


----------



## José Herring

rgames @ Wed Sep 10 said:


> The thing the Democrats seem to be missing is the fact that true influence relies on the confluence of thought in the emotional and rational parts of the brain.
> rgames



My God you sound like a pot smokin' hippy!!

The thing the democrats are having a hard time with is that there's no level too low for the Republicans. The republicans are like caged animals. They've lost so much under the Bush adminsitration. They've lost the majority in both houses. Majority of states have democratic governors. Majority of the cities have democratic mayors. The larger number of new voters are joining the democratic party.

All this coupled with a bad 8 years of republican leadership means that the party is pulling out all the fascist tactics it can think of.

It is surprising that nobody is really mentioning that Palin's speech was packed full of outright lies. Girl didn't even care that she was lying, just that the num skull republicans are buying into it. Nobody has mention the fact that the campaign has taken on Obama's message. Wtf, they aren't even smart enough to think of their own message.

Nobody is mentioning the fact that with the government take over of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac the republicans have moved us one giant step closer to Socialism. And, with the occupation of Iraq (and it is an occupation, it's certainly not a war. They don't have enough of an army to even wage a decent war.) The republicans have moved us closer to acting like the the former soviet union than any other party.

And, nobody mentions that the "Patriot Act" is basically the operating manual of the KGB and the CIA turned inward on US citizens.

I hate republicans for eroding everything that is decent about America. Palin with her book banning, Trooper gate and her "Iraq is a holy war attitude" is about as Fascist of a politician as I've ever seen. If it wasn't for the fact that she wears pretty lipstick she'd just be a vile monster. She can't even control her own family. She did horribly as a governor of Alaska. She even had to be forced to sign a law under threat of legal action. She's a law breaker. Maverick no. She's just a criminal willing to break the law to get her way.

Despicable. But, I wouldn't expect anything less from this Fascist group.

I just hope Obama is sensible enough to get that message out.

Jose


----------



## madbulk

Does everybody do this? I just wrote ten paragraphs and then decided against the whole thing. Didn't want to spend the night defending myself. Didn't want to offend, didn't wanna say something stupid. Commission. Omission. Just skip it.


----------



## José Herring

Yeah. Sometimes I just write to organize my thoughts, then when I read it over I'm happy that I've figured something out and often just don't feel like sharing my thoughts.

Other times I just stick my foot in my mouth.


----------



## Robobino

Sarah Palin action figures... I just ordered the "Sarah Palin schoolgirl" for my dog...

http://www.herobuilders.com/08.htm


----------



## Fernando Warez

madbulk @ Wed Sep 10 said:


> Does everybody do this? I just wrote ten paragraphs and then decided against the whole thing. Didn't want to spend the night defending myself. Didn't want to offend, didn't wanna say something stupid. Commission. Omission. Just skip it.



I do it. 

And i do it in head all the time.


----------



## Fernando Warez

Robobino @ Wed Sep 10 said:


> Sarah Palin action figures... I just ordered the "Sarah Palin schoolgirl" for my dog...
> 
> http://www.herobuilders.com/08.htm




Boy i hope this is a joke!


----------



## Robobino

Amused to death...


----------



## choc0thrax

josejherring @ Wed Sep 10 said:


> Yeah. Sometimes I just write to organize my thoughts, then when I read it over I'm happy that I've figured something out and often just don't feel like sharing my thoughts.



Man I'd love to hear some of those thoughts that didn't make the cut. >8o 


I started respecting Matt Damon when he started the Bourne films but now even more so: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6urw_PW ... ture=bz301


----------



## wonshu

josejherring @ Wed Sep 10 said:


> and often just don't feel like sharing my thoughts.



Don't be a thought-hog...


----------



## JB78

choc0thrax @ Wed Sep 10 said:


> I started respecting Matt Damon when he started the Bourne films but now even more so: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6urw_PW ... ture=bz301



Great video, and the comments from the republi-bots are amusing as well.


"tommyhillbilly (2 hours ago)
I Matt Damon, I know politics, I want cookie now.........What a dumbass!!!!! "


"tgilleece (2 hours ago) 

So Matt Damon thinks Sarah Palin becoming president is a "really scary thing" because HE doesn't know anything about her. So go learn something about her, sissy. Of course he then acknowledges that she was mayor of a "really, really small town" and that she was governor of Alaska for "less than two years" and that's why he's wetting his pants. He's "terrified" that she may have the nuclear codes. I guess he feels much safer with those codes in community organizer Obama's pocket? Absurd indeed. "


Wow, just wow...


----------



## Christian Marcussen

choc0thrax @ Wed Sep 10 said:


> josejherring @ Wed Sep 10 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah. Sometimes I just write to organize my thoughts, then when I read it over I'm happy that I've figured something out and often just don't feel like sharing my thoughts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man I'd love to hear some of those thoughts that didn't make the cut. >8o
> 
> 
> I started respecting Matt Damon when he started the Bourne films but now even more so: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6urw_PW ... ture=bz301
Click to expand...


Lol... nice. "I need to know if she thinks Dinosaurs were here 4000 years ago, bacause she is going to have the launch codes" :D


----------



## rJames

josejherring @ Wed Sep 10 said:


> rgames @ Wed Sep 10 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The thing the democrats are having a hard time with is that there's no level too low for the Republicans.
> ...
> It is surprising that nobody is really mentioning that Palin's speech was packed full of outright lies. Girl didn't even care that she was lying, just that the num skull republicans are buying into it.
> 
> ...
> Nobody has mention the fact that the campaign has taken on Obama's message. Wtf, they aren't even smart enough to think of their own message.
> 
> Nobody is mentioning the fact that with the government take over of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac the republicans have moved us one giant step closer to Socialism.
> 
> ...
> Palin with her book banning, Trooper gate and her "Iraq is a holy war attitude" is about as Fascist of a politician as I've ever seen.
> 
> ...
> Despicable. But, I wouldn't expect anything less from this Fascist group.
> 
> I just hope Obama is sensible enough to get that message out.
> 
> Jose
Click to expand...


They are playing by the rules and they believe what they are saying. Obama and politicians know this. That's why they have to be so cautious when speaking.

You're right, Democrats don't understand Republicans.

Each of us know and love a Republican, right? But we can't convince them of our understanding of what is happening in politics.

the Republicans will do anything necessary, within their beliefs of "fairness" to win. Because they believe that they are damned if they don't win. (BTW I don't doubt that Palin deeply believes that God wants us to "win" in Iraq)

It's like they have figured out that it is really like a debate class. Use words to win the debate. Understand your audience and speak in words that will convince them!

As Kays said (I think it was him) Democrats are not built that way. It really is how your mind processes data and how you separate "feeling" from "fact".

Its mind control of the masses. And until China takes over as the major superpower in the world, most of us will continue to live here, no matter what happens.

Luckily, we won't see the demise of the US in our lifetimes. Just make sure your kids are really well educated ...and can speak Chinese.


----------



## Fernando Warez

JB78 @ Wed Sep 10 said:


> choc0thrax @ Wed Sep 10 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I started respecting Matt Damon when he started the Bourne films but now even more so: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6urw_PW ... ture=bz301
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Great video, and the comments from the republi-bots are amusing as well.
> 
> 
> "tommyhillbilly (2 hours ago)
> I Matt Damon, I know politics, I want cookie now.........What a dumbass!!!!! "
> 
> 
> "tgilleece (2 hours ago)
> 
> So Matt Damon thinks Sarah Palin becoming president is a "really scary thing" because HE doesn't know anything about her. So go learn something about her, sissy. Of course he then acknowledges that she was mayor of a "really, really small town" and that she was governor of Alaska for "less than two years" and that's why he's wetting his pants. He's "terrified" that she may have the nuclear codes. I guess he feels much safer with those codes in community organizer Obama's pocket? Absurd indeed. "
> 
> 
> Wow, just wow...
Click to expand...


Yea! Bots is what they are. But did you see the votes? I realize there maybe people from around the world voting but I'm pretty sure we can interpret this as people Americans don't like republicans not just Palin. This is why i don't buy into these polls.


----------



## Ed

Just how religious is Sarah Palin?

Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvViZDuVWVw&feature=user

Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joEPe7-H ... re=related


----------



## wonshu

You know, since the rest of the world has to deal with the BS that the US government puts on, I think we should all get a say.

mwuhuhahahahaha 

The weirdest thing is, that Americans should be smart enough to see the signs, there are clear signs that this society goes the path all great empires have gone. It's just a matter of time.

Unless you can unleash that unbelievable potential to change that leaves me in awe and makes me wish that I was born there to sort of have that instilled when I was young.

Ah... anyway

But to think that a nation started by people who escaped religious suppression in Europe is now on the path to do exactly what they escaped from is mind-boggling...

Best of luck
Hans


----------



## José Herring

My wife and I are thinking of moving to Switzerland if McCain wins. Does anybody know what kind of work permits are needed to work in Switzerland? On second thought with the internet I can score from just about anywhere.

best,

Jose


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

"The weirdest thing is, that Americans should be smart enough to see the signs, there are clear signs that this society goes the path all great empires have gone. It's just a matter of time."

And probably a much shorter time than we'd like to think. If you look at the length of time empires last these days, you'll see that it's getting shorter and shorter.

Compare, say, the Hapsburg empire (centuries) to the Soviet Union (70 years).


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

"On second thought with the internet I can score from just about anywhere."

I thought you were going to bring your wife with you?


----------



## José Herring

This is a great video. I don't care who's side you are on. This is truth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poEaUMnC ... ent/hqblog


----------



## Ed

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Sep 10 said:


> The only thing I disagree with is "borderline" treason. Even suggesting to Tony Blair that we stage a military event to sell the invasion of Iraq is not borderline, it's treason.



heh, because governments wouldnt ever consider doing that!!


----------



## wonshu

Tough, but will it help?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odb09esH8z4


----------



## José Herring

wonshu @ Thu Sep 11 said:


> Tough, but will it help?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odb09esH8z4



That's what I'm talkin' about!!! 

I urge everybody to read the document Psychopolitician. Great read. It's what the Fascist are doing to our country now.

http://www.lawfulpath.com/ref/brainwsh.shtml


----------



## Fernando Warez

When will people understand that terrorism is a powerful political tool of governments.


----------



## choc0thrax

Is it just me or has Olbermann gone into full attack formation on his show now that he got kicked off of the election coverage for being too opinionated? He's my fav at MSNBC.


----------



## madbulk

Is it just me or did he go completely off the rails with that last five minutes on how McCain meant that he had specific knowledge of a way to, I guess, go get OBL immediately, but was holding it as a political ace?

McCain meant something far more ethereal. Take him to task for the political junk that it was, but this was just silly.

On the other hand, it might work. So by any means necessary.... as usual.


----------



## JB78

madbulk @ Thu Sep 11 said:


> Is it just me or did he go completely off the rails with that last five minutes on how McCain meant that he had specific knowledge of a way to, I guess, go get OBL immediately, but was holding it as a political ace?
> 
> McCain meant something far more ethereal. Take him to task for the political junk that it was, but this was just silly.
> 
> On the other hand, it might work. So by any means necessary.... as usual.



Yeah, I thought that was kind of weird as well. Then again, if you compare it to the usual Bill-O rantings it was probably not that out of line.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

"heh, because governments wouldnt ever consider doing that!!"

Just so you know I'm not just raving, there are actually recordings of Bush suggesting that to Tony Blair.


----------



## José Herring

Been checking out leaks from Palin's first interview. She's really not that bright. Has less of a firm grasp on key issues than your average person. She's waffling, unsure about stuff. She speaks well but I feel that in the end in spite of the good looks and hometown appeal, she'll end up hurting McCain more than helping.


----------



## Robobino

She's even worst than I thought!... What an empty shell!... There's no way the world is going to collaborate with the United States if the Republicans are elected!! No way!...

This is the end for your country guys! >8o


----------



## José Herring

Once America sees this trust me it will swing back. It's already starting to swing back.

But, it's just unmistakable that she's an airhead.

Jose


----------



## SvK

Palin interview....

I just watched today's segment.....She is spooked, out of her element...fear in her eyes is obvious.......she doesn't have any command of the language necessary to discuss foreign policy.....

I think it is obvious.

SvK


----------



## Robobino

She's the shortest path to a nuclear war... And she's so stupid she would nuke her own allies...

Do Americans understand this is not a normal election?... You have EVERYTHING to lose!...


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Where was the interview?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Ah.

This is especially frightening:

"Ms. Palin used the interview to reinforce the muscular foreign policy of Mr. McCain, saying she would not second-guess any military action Israel deems necessary to protect itself, warning Russia away from aggression against its neighbors and generally supporting President Bush’s approach to combating terrorism. But she also put some distance between the administration and the McCain team. “There have been blunders along the way,” she said."

A. Muscular foreign policy = 180˚ wrong.

B. Blind support for Israel = 180˚ wrong. We should be mediating impartially, not continuing to alienate the entire Muslim world.

C. She has absolutely no idea what she's talking about, in fact she didn't even know what the Bush Doctrine is!

"Ms. Palin said that before a trip to the Middle East and Germany in 2007, her only foreign travel had been to Mexico and Canada, And, she acknowledged, she had not met any foreign leaders, though she said — in an apparent veiled reference to Mr. Biden — “We’ve got to remember what the desire is in this nation at this time. It is for no more politics as usual and somebody’s big fat résumé that maybe shows decades and decades in that Washington establishment, where, yes, they’ve had opportunities to meet heads of state.” "

Where ignorance is bliss...


----------



## wonshu

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Sep 12 said:


> "Ms. Palin said that before a trip to the Middle East and Germany in 2007, her only foreign travel had been to Mexico and Canada, And, she acknowledged, she had not met any foreign leaders, though she said — in an apparent veiled reference to Mr. Biden — “We’ve got to remember what the desire is in this nation at this time. It is for no more politics as usual and somebody’s big fat résumé that maybe shows decades and decades in that Washington establishment, where, yes, they’ve had opportunities to meet heads of state.” "



That's what I don't get, it was their f*$%ing party that's in power for the past eight years.

Boneheads, freaking boneheads...


----------



## tobyond

Can anyone not be perilously afraid that this lady could be one 72 heartbeat away from the red button: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z75QSExE0jU


----------



## JB78

tobyond @ Thu Sep 11 said:


> Can anyone not be perilously afraid that this lady could be one 72 heartbeat away from the red button:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z75QSExE0jU



Well, sadly enough around 50% of the U.S is just fine with it according to polls. :shock: 

If McCain/Palin DOES get elected after these last 8 years there's something SERIOUSLY wrong with America, Palin scares the shit out of me...


----------



## midphase

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/61410aa4ff


----------



## wonshu

If she shoots you in the face it was because she was aiming for it... ROTFLMAO


----------



## Robobino

This era will be remembered as "The Age of Unenlightenment"... (o)


----------



## tgfoo

tobyond @ Fri Sep 12 said:


> Can anyone not be perilously afraid that this lady could be one 72 heartbeat away from the red button:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z75QSExE0jU



Man, she kinda scared the crap out of me before... but now she really scares me. I wish he would have broken out a map with no names and asked to her identify various countries throughout the world... I wonder if she could do it...


----------



## José Herring

I almost feel sorry for the girl. This girl's home is Alaska. All she knows is Alaska. When talking about Alaska her eyes light up and she has a tremendous command of the issues. But, talking about anything else and she's scared, fidgety, unsure about herself. 

After watching the interview I just felt sorry for her. She's just out classed on the international stage. She's never even been outside of the US until last week. Probably has never even stayed for any period of time outside of Alaska.

She belongs in Alaska. I'm praying that most people see that.

Cause her cold war rhetoric is just frightening. She doesn't even sound like she understands what she's saying half the time.

Jose


----------



## SvK

My 2 cents.....

After seeing all of the "Palin Interview".....it is clear that she does not poses the necessary language to conduct a discussion on any aspects of foreign policy......

I think that many who view this will feel the same...Here is how I think it will play......The less-educated conservative women who have flocked to Sarah will remain with her no matter what.......they want a woman in office and that's that....

HOWEVER......

I believe many, many of the more educated conservative women, and many, many men, who can not stand the idea of Obama WILL vote 3d party, due to Palin's utter pedestrian performances in this interview.

That would be great for Obama.

thoughts?

SvK


----------



## Fernando Warez

Sadly, i think many Hillary supporters(womens) will vote for Palin. I hope I'm wrong!


----------



## Robobino

The Republican leads the Republican...


----------



## Robobino

Godwin Point...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4mK...ence.com/archives/2008/09/inside_the_demo.php


----------



## Fernando Warez

Robobino @ Fri Sep 12 said:


> Godwin Point...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4mK...ence.com/archives/2008/09/inside_the_demo.php



Wow! Anthony Hopkins performance was amazing! I didn't watch the movie cause I'm tired of these one sided WW2 movies but i think but i have to see this one. I couldn't care less about the text as i was to busy watching Hopkins performance. I lmost felt sorry for Hitler! :lol:


----------



## wonshu

Hopkins??????

That was Bruno Ganz in "Der Untergang" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0363163/

Best
Hans


----------



## SvK

I'm working on an ad.........
Here is the voice-over (forboding)

John McCain is 72 years old.

This is his last chance to become President.....
Faced with the possibility of losing this election, McCain chose a vice-president who received her first passport in 2007...... She has never met a foreign head of state and has never shaped any foreign policies...... At 72, if McCaIn should fall ill.........and America is faced with a global crisis.......how safe would you feel?

Is that....... putting your country first?



thoughts?

SvK


----------



## Fernando Warez

wonshu @ Fri Sep 12 said:


> Hopkins??????
> 
> That was Bruno Ganz in "Der Untergang" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0363163/
> 
> Best
> Hans



Damn! I thought that was Hopkins. I'm surprise cause i rarely make mistake about actors... 

Now that i think about it i think, i think I've seen a long preview/report about this film a while ago. I remember the actor transformation looked remarkable. It really looks like an amazing performance.

Thanks for correcting me. o-[][]-o


----------



## Fernando Warez

Bot McCain and Palin will be easily manipulated buy the neocons and THAT is whats really scary!


----------



## JB78

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBFk9XC3YLs
:mrgreen:


----------



## José Herring

Is America that stupid? 

Just read that Palin's husband is being subpoenaed to give testimony in the trooper gate scandal. Which got me thinking. Is America really that stupid?

Granted there's nothing new to politicians doing illegal things. But, usually it's guys that have been in office for a long time. This woman is already in so much trouble and she's a relatively new politician.

Which makes me wonder what type of person is she.

I know there's a lot of retarded people in our country, but her selection to me is the hight of retardation. Here she is running for the second highest office of the land and she's already under investigation for abuse of power.

One of the most cherished America policies is the separation of church and state. She can't make that distinction. One of the other most cherished American philosophies is that of pragmatism. How pragmatic can she be when she didn't even make an effort to explain to her teenage daughter that having sex unprotected is risky. Now her daughter at 17 is going to be a mommy. Forget college. What kind of parent would let their kid ruin their life like that over a religious belief?


Is it me or is the news media being kinda soft on her? Or, are they just waiting for the right time to hit her on these issues?

The republicans tried to say that Obama lacked judgment. I think they lost that battle.

As more is known about her the polls are swinging back to Obama. But, of the next 7 weeks we're going to find out if we're a nation of enlightened people, or a nation of Bible bangin' criminal idiots.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

You get SNL in Sweden?! Wow.

We just watched it this morning (DVR). Tina Fey's make-up was amazing - she looked just like her!


----------



## JB78

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Sep 14 said:


> You get SNL in Sweden?! Wow.
> 
> We just watched it this morning (DVR). Tina Fey's make-up was amazing - she looked just like her!



Yeah, and the daily show, Conan, Letterman, Leno etc...We're usually around one week behind, mostly due to every show that airs on swedish channels are subtitled. This clip was posted on another forum though, that's how I found it. We also have the internet and electricity in Sweden... :wink:


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Why do you need electricity in Sweden?! To power the lights on your viking helmets?


----------



## JB78

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Sep 14 said:


> Why do you need electricity in Sweden?! To power the lights on your viking helmets?



/\~O 


:lol:


----------



## SvK

The AD I made is on YouTube now......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpT8h4cX ... ture=email

SvK


----------



## Thonex

josejherring @ Sun Sep 14 said:


> But, of the next 7 weeks we're going to find out if we're a nation of enlightened people, or a nation of Bible bangin' criminal idiots.



Sorry to say, but I think Bush's reelection into office pretty much answered that one.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

I'm not a total fan of Thomas Friedman - I find his "globalization" talk (which he managed to fit in here) a load of bollox - but he sure does a good job of articulating what I feel is wrong with the Republican party right now.


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/14/opini ... an.html?hp


OP-ED COLUMNIST
Making America Stupid

By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
Published: September 13, 2008
Imagine for a minute that attending the Republican convention in St. Paul, sitting in a skybox overlooking the convention floor, were observers from Russia, Iran and Venezuela. And imagine for a minute what these observers would have been doing when Rudy Giuliani led the delegates in a chant of “drill, baby, drill!”


Fred R. Conrad/The New York Times
Thomas L. Friedman
Go to Columnist Page »
I’ll tell you what they would have been doing: the Russian, Iranian and Venezuelan observers would have been up out of their seats, exchanging high-fives and joining in the chant louder than anyone in the hall — “Yes! Yes! Drill, America, drill!” — because an America that is focused first and foremost on drilling for oil is an America more focused on feeding its oil habit than kicking it.

Why would Republicans, the party of business, want to focus our country on breathing life into a 19th-century technology — fossil fuels — rather than giving birth to a 21st-century technology — renewable energy? As I have argued before, it reminds me of someone who, on the eve of the I.T. revolution — on the eve of PCs and the Internet — is pounding the table for America to make more I.B.M. typewriters and carbon paper. “Typewriters, baby, typewriters.”

Of course, we’re going to need oil for many years, but instead of exalting that — with “drill, baby, drill” — why not throw all our energy into innovating a whole new industry of clean power with the mantra “invent, baby, invent?” That is what a party committed to “change” would really be doing. As they say in Texas: “If all you ever do is all you’ve ever done, then all you’ll ever get is all you ever got.”

I dwell on this issue because it is symbolic of the campaign that John McCain has decided to run. It’s a campaign now built on turning everything possible into a cultural wedge issue — including even energy policy, no matter how stupid it makes the voters and no matter how much it might weaken America.

I respected McCain’s willingness to support the troop surge in Iraq, even if it was going to cost him the Republican nomination. Now the same guy, who would not sell his soul to win his party’s nomination, is ready to sell every piece of his soul to win the presidency.

In order to disguise the fact that the core of his campaign is to continue the same Bush policies that have led 80 percent of the country to conclude we’re on the wrong track, McCain has decided to play the culture-war card. Obama may be a bit professorial, but at least he is trying to unite the country to face the real issues rather than divide us over cultural differences.

A Washington Post editorial on Thursday put it well: “On a day when the Congressional Budget Office warned of looming deficits and a grim economic outlook, when the stock market faltered even in the wake of the government’s rescue of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, when President Bush discussed the road ahead in Iraq and Afghanistan, on what did the campaign of Senator John McCain spend its energy? A conference call to denounce Senator Barack Obama for using the phrase ‘lipstick on a pig’ and a new television ad accusing the Democrat of wanting to teach kindergartners about sex before they learn to read.”

Some McCain supporters criticize Obama for not having the steel in his belly to use force in the dangerous world we live in today. Well I know this: In order to use force, you have to have force. In order to exercise leverage, you have to have leverage.

I don’t know how much steel is in Obama’s belly, but I do know that the issues he is focusing on in this campaign — improving education and health care, dealing with the deficit and forging a real energy policy based on building a whole new energy infrastructure — are the only way we can put steel back into America’s spine. McCain, alas, has abandoned those issues for the culture-war strategy.

Who cares how much steel John McCain has in his gut when the steel that today holds up our bridges, railroads, nuclear reactors and other infrastructure is rusting? McCain talks about how he would build dozens of nuclear power plants. Oh, really? They go for $10 billion a pop. Where is the money going to come from? From lowering taxes? From banning abortions? From borrowing more from China? From having Sarah Palin “reform” Washington — as if she has any more clue how to do that than the first 100 names in the D.C. phonebook?

Sorry, but there is no sustainable political/military power without economic power, and talking about one without the other is nonsense. Unless we make America the country most able to innovate, compete and win in the age of globalization, our leverage in the world will continue to slowly erode. Those are the issues this election needs to be about, because that is what the next four years need to be about.

There is no strong leader without a strong country. And posing as one, to use the current vernacular, is nothing more than putting lipstick on a pig.


----------



## Robobino

Don't underestimate the power of Jesus... He will fix everything when the time comes...

Meanwhile, Hugo Chavez takes a shit on USA, and kicks the American ambassador out of his country... "Yankee de mierda!"... 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8LDzM6tboc

Waiting for the Russian nuclear float to show up in South America...


----------



## JonFairhurst

Maybe I spoke too early when I criticized McCain for not being able to use a computer, and therefore not being in a position to lead on technology, let alone qualify for an entry-level office job. It turns out that he's an expert on technology:

_ "I am uniquely qualified to lead our nation during this technological revolution. While in the Navy, I depended upon the technologies and information provided by our nation’s scientists and engineers with during each mission."_ 

The man USED technology 40 YEARS AGO. What vision!

Not only that, but he "invented" the cell phone and WiFi.

_ "I am the former chairman of the Senate Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation. The Committee plays a major role in the development of technology policy, specifically any legislation affecting communications services, the Internet, cable television and other technologies. Under my guiding hand, Congress developed a wireless spectrum policy that spurred the rapid rise of mobile phones and Wi-Fi technology that enables Americans to surf the web while sitting at a coffee shop, airport lounge, or public park."_

But oops. It turns out that John McCain is lying yet again. He voted against key legislation that did pass, and authored legislation that did not pass.

He did vote for one bill that passed 97-3, but didn't author or co-sponsor it. Wow. What a technology leader!

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/9/16/63238/2462/721/600320 (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/ ... 721/600320)

We can look forward to McCain continuing the awesome technology path blazed by Bush. Just think of all the technology speeches that Bush has given, and all of the visionary insights he has shared with us.

I expect that Palin will do as much for the US high-tech industry as she has for Alaska's booming technology sector.

It's not a Bridge to Nowhere. They're building a Bridge to the 19th Century!


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

But let's talk about the larger issue: lipstick.


----------



## Christian Marcussen

You know things are bad when Carl Rowe calls your campaign tactics "a bit too far"...


----------



## rgames

I'm happy to see that my fellow artists are maintaining the tradition of enlightened dissention. :roll: 

The last time I saw this sort of juvenile group-think was when I used to visit NS...

Come on guys!

rgames


----------



## José Herring

Nobody has posted anything that isn't 100% dead on the truth.

Pretty enlightened to me.

Certainly more enlightened than a girl saying she knows foreign policy because "Russia is next to Alaska".

You Republican's sure know how to pick 'em. Keep it up and we'll all die real soon!  

:roll:


----------



## JonFairhurst

_"The fundamental business of the country, that is, the production and distribution of commodities, is on a very sound and prosperous basis." _

- Herbert Hoover, October 25th, 1929 - following Black Thursday, and in advance of the big crash of "Tragic Tuesday," October 29th

_"The fundamentals of our economy are strong"_

- John McCain, September 15th, 2008 - the day of the largest single day fall in stock prices since 9/11/01.

McCain also said:
_"I promise you we will never put America in this position again"_ 

To bad they put American in this position in the first place.

According to Wilbur Ross, possibly 1,000 banks could fail. Crap!
http://www.cnbc.com/id/26710362


----------



## Ed

Wasnt there a thing about McCain and not understanding economics?

As for the economy...

The Amero:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYl0mdzE-p0

North American Community (Union):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T74VA3xU0EA
http://www.cfr.org/publication/8102/

hmm


----------



## rgames

JonFairhurst @ Tue Sep 16 said:


> According to Wilbur Ross, possibly 1,000 banks could fail. Crap!



Yeah - nothing like this would have happened if the Republicans were in control of Congress! We should kick out all the Democrats! See all the trouble they cause?

I mean, come on! It's a fact: banks are failing, and Democrats control the Congress! We MUST get them out!

Sheesh... :roll: 

rgames


----------



## Ed

btw, rgames...



Ed @ Tue Sep 09 said:


> rgames @ Mon Sep 08 said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> OK - I'm going to restrain myself on this one. But, just for fun, I will mention Obama's comment that the UN should get together and officially renounce Russia's attacks on South Ossetia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Huh? Russia didnt attack South Ossetia, Georgia did. The Russians were seen as liberators. The Georgian sneak attack killed near 2 thousand. They also cut off their water. What about condeming that?
Click to expand...


----------



## rgames

Allow me to wax philosophical for a moment - this is not in response to any one post, just to the thread in general:

Society looks to its creative individuals for original thought (that's us, right?). As such, I would expect a greater degree of originality in the posts here. Perhaps politics is an exception.

What I have observed in this thread is a sort of "opinion by proxy" wherein participants post links to content that expresses some opinion, ostensibly one that they share. By definition, then, these are not original statements of thought from the poster. Rather, they are simply re-statements of someone else's thoughts and opinions.

If the links are removed or, if absoultely necessary, supplied as reference and followed with insight and critical review, I think we would do much more to advance this thread to the level of an actual discourse.

Consider an analogy: let's say I go into the composition review forum and post links to other composers' works as examples of musical ideas that I would like to express. If it's followed with critical review and insight, it becomes study. But if it is simply restated without rational discourse, how does it promote discussion? Worse yet, what if it is linked and followed with a statement of blind devotion to the ideas it expresses? Have we acted as perpetrators of original thought? I contend that this thread is rife with examples of such blind devotion devoid of personal insight.

To the extent that we behave in this manner, we are avoiding true discussion and are, rather, engaging in puerile banter.

rgames


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Yeah. I'll accept that criticism from you after you've spent some time researching and thinking through your opinions about foreign policy, Richard. What's the last book you read on the subject?


----------



## midphase

This is really funny:

http://www.observer.com/2008/style/blac ... ces-mccain


----------



## Ed

midphase @ Tue Sep 16 said:


> This is really funny:
> 
> http://www.observer.com/2008/style/blac ... ces-mccain



HAHAHAH I love it!! I want it to be be real! What a nice way to start my day (its 2:30pm).


----------



## choc0thrax

midphase @ Wed Sep 17 said:


> This is really funny:
> 
> http://www.observer.com/2008/style/blac ... ces-mccain





Alex Clamwatch (not verified) says:

This is hacky and tired. What's next, white guys rapping?


----------



## José Herring

rgames @ Tue Sep 16 said:


> JonFairhurst @ Tue Sep 16 said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to Wilbur Ross, possibly 1,000 banks could fail. Crap!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah - nothing like this would have happened if the Republicans were in control of Congress! We should kick out all the Democrats! See all the trouble they cause?
> 
> I mean, come on! It's a fact: banks are failing, and Democrats control the Congress! We MUST get them out!
> 
> Sheesh... :roll:
> 
> rgames
Click to expand...


This argument would hold water if it wasn't for the fact that the Treasury Sec who is suppose to be controlling these things is a Bush appointee. Face it. Like in so many areas the Republicans just didn't have the balls to stand up to the privately owned Federal Reserve.

But, the issue is a bit bigger than that imo. The issue is, does Capitalism really work well. And, don't mistake capitalism with free enterprise as so many do. Capitalism in it's purest form is the use of money to make money. Loans, credit, stocks, bonds, ect.. Seems to me that when we apply the Republican philosophy of " letting the market regulate itself" we have major catastrophes. Back in the Reagan and Bush sr. eras, there was a similar catastrophe. Gotta hand it to Bush jr though. He's certainly out done his dad. All little jr wanted was to grow up and out do his dad. Well, with the Iraq mess and with the most major bank and market crisis since the great depression, as Greenspan puts it, he's certainly out done anything his dad did.


----------



## JonFairhurst

Republicans often confuse the market with a lack of regulation. They couldn't be more wrong.

Look at the NFL. Football IS competition. And the key to its success is that it has well defined rules, judging, penalties and enforcement.

If football had no rules, the most ruthless team would dominate. The lesser teams would cease to exist. And we would have a rash of injured and dead players. That's what competition without rules gets you.

Even war has rules.

In March, McCain told the Wall Street Journal, 

_ "*I'm always for less regulation. But I am aware of the view that there is a need for government oversight.* I think we found this in the subprime lending crisis -- that there are people that game the system and if not outright broke the law, they certainly engaged in unethical conduct which made this problem worse. So I do believe that there is role for oversight.

"As far as a need for additional regulations are concerned, I think that depends on the legislative agenda and what the Congress does to some degree, *but I am a fundamentally a deregulator. I'd like to see a lot of the unnecessary government regulations eliminated, not just a moratorium*."_

Deregulating capitalism is the surest way to destroy it.


----------



## rgames

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Sep 16 said:


> Yeah. I'll accept that criticism from you after you've spent some time researching and thinking through your opinions about foreign policy, Richard. What's the last book you read on the subject?



Hmmm - good question. Probably the last one I read that dealt with foreign policy was American Prometheus, about a year ago. It wasn't actually *about* foreign policy, but it was a major theme.

But my parents are first generation Americans, so I regularly spend time overseas visiting relatives and discussing their opinions of the US. And they regularly spend time here in the US. I find that type of insight at least as good as anything I've ever read in a book, at least as far as foreign relations are concerned.

rgames


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

You're not running for vice president, so I'll leave that alone...


----------



## JonFairhurst

rgames can't legally run as McCain's VP. He's from McCain's home state.

However, you're still eligible, Nick.


----------



## José Herring

I'm from McCain's home state too. I've had 20 years to study the bumbling man's politics. He means well. But, he just can't deliver. Palin is a prime example of McCainism. A rush to judgment without being able to consider the whole picture.

It's worth noting that the stanch Republican state that AZ use to be is now being run by a democrat.

Sign of the times really.

Jose


----------



## midphase

I know that Slate is a wee bit left leaning...but it's no MSNBC.

I think they write some good articles, and they do try as hard as possibly to stay in the middle.

Here is a very interesting article about who is better at the economy with actual factual info:

http://www.slate.com/id/2199810/


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

"However, you're still eligible, Nick."

Sorry, I was born in England and only became a naturalized citizen in the 80s. May as well disband that exploratory committee...


----------



## midphase

Is that why your accent is so strange?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Si. Atsa why itsa so astrange.


----------



## JonFairhurst

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Sep 17 said:


> "However, you're still eligible, Nick."
> 
> Sorry, I was born in England and only became a naturalized citizen in the 80s. May as well disband that exploratory committee...



Well, there's always the Senate...

_No person shall be a Senator who shall not have attained to the age of thirty years, and been nine years a citizen of the United States and who shall not, when elected, be an inhabitant of that state for which he shall be chosen. _

Happy Constitution Day!

_Done in convention by the unanimous consent of the states present the seventeenth day of September in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven and of the independence of the United States of America the twelfth._


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

I've been getting into political podcasts, listening mostly to Slate's and NPR's. Does anyone have other suggestions for me? I'll even listen to one or two GOP-flavoured ones!


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

"Left, Right, and Center" can be good. "Bill Moyer's Journal" is always good even though it's not always about politics.

What I stay away from is programs with talking heads who make amoral comments about the election. "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" is the perfect example. He and his panelists treat this as a game in which right and wrong have nothing to do with anything. It's all "he has a problem with [insert the group]," an approach that I don't want to see justified - for the simple reason that it's precisely what has turned our elections into a mockery of democracy.

Sarah Palin is the height of that trend, by the way. If there was any doubt, McCain proved beyond a doubt that he's the wrong person for the job by the very act of making that choice. Mavericks don't put their desires ahead of their principles.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

Thanks, the-other-NB. 8)


----------



## Ed

I cant believe I would ever say this but I'd rather have Bush another term than a McCain administration. That thought is so scary its hard to imagine.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

I wouldn't go that far, although once again his choice of Palin makes me question the benefit of the doubt I've been giving him so far. The main advantage he has over Bush is roughly double the IQ points, which should make him less susceptible to the agendas of the people around him.

Obviously not.


----------



## Fernando Warez

Ed @ Mon Sep 22 said:


> I cant believe I would ever say this but I'd rather have Bush another term than a McCain administration. That thought is so scary its hard to imagine.



+1


----------



## José Herring

Obama came off very well indeed. Getting more specific with his message of change everyday. Obama is also very sincere.

McCain came off as incredibly sincere, but as mentioned he bumbled on just about every question except on defense, when he said, "I know how to bring peace to the world." But, he never gave any specifics.

At any rate both candidates seem to be rather good. But, I have to hand it to Obama for really putting his best foot forward. Obama is ready for the debates. I can tell he's very prepared already. Both McCain and Palin seem like they're still trying to figure out their message.

It's my belief that the body reacts instantaneous to thought. I did note that when asked if he thought Sarah Palin could be president, his head immediately shook, no, when his mouth was saying yes several seconds afterwards. And, even during his whole glowing answer, his head still was shaking, no.

The debate should be interesting. The first one is based on National Defense. McCain is pretty strong on that ground. My guess is that the first debate will be a draw. The next two Obama will crush him. McCain really does have a fumble grasp on economic principals. It's obvious that he still doesn't get it.

Jose


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

McCain is pretty strong on acting like a hard-ass. He's not strong on "national defense" - which should be *foreign policy*; if they're calling it national defense then it's slanted toward a hawkish position that's totally against our interests.

Who wins the debate depends little on who makes his case the best, unfortunately. It's all about who comes off as the one "who has the closest values" to the beholder, or something silly like that. "Who looks the most presidential." Whatever.

In any case, my prediction is the same as always: Obama is going to blow him off the stage. He's just a far bigger personality.


----------



## Ed

John McCain vs. John McCain

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioy90nF2anI


----------



## José Herring

I think you're right John. I don't think the debates are going to be a walk in the park for anybody Biden especially. But, in contrast to Kerry, I find that Obama and Biden are not making the mistake that Kerry made, in thinking that they have this election in the bag.

But, what is impressing me about Obama is that he really has seemed to have grown over the last year as a human being. More thoughtful, more willing to take on tougher issues and more confident in himself.


----------



## JonFairhurst

josejherring @ Tue Sep 23 said:


> But, what is impressing me about Obama is that he really has seemed to have grown over the last year as a human being. More thoughtful, more willing to take on tougher issues and more confident in himself.


I'd agree. I think that he has the energy to govern, not just to win.


----------



## choc0thrax

Well Mccain wants to put his campaign on hold, the economy is in crisis. He really does care.


----------



## SvK

First it was the "Straight Talk Express",
then it was the "No Talk Express",

and today it became "The No Show Express"

Keep this in mind.....Tonight the McCain campaign suggested that we hold the 1st debate NEXT Friday.....You know what is scheduled for then ? The VP debate.......which they said they could push a week further...hehehehehe

.....You know what? This is all about the VP debate 
The McCain "plan" was to delay the VP debate next friday.......I'm sure of it.......They figured they'd say what they said today (McCain due to crisis suspends campaign.blah, blah) BUT the real reason was to then re-schedule the 1st POTUS debate on the day of the VP debate in order to push that debate further out.....

,.......Because this morning they got a whiff of the awesome foreign policy guy that is Biden....

The Bluff BACK-FIRED...Team McCain was sure that Obama would agree, as he would not wish to appear political during this crisis.

BUT OBAMA DIDN'T BLINK!!!

hahaha

now they are screwed

SvK


----------



## SvK

HERE is today's example of Palin being interviewed....You're gonna love it.

WOW:

http://thepoliticalcarnival.blogspot.co ... ouric.html


----------



## SvK

What would "Make My Day"....is if Obama comes out tomorrow and says...."Ok John let's hold that 1st debate next friday.....but just so Ole Miss Universitry isn't out 5 million bucks (the school where 1st debate is taking place)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/2 ... 29057.html

...let's compromise and have the VPs debate this Friday" 

Of course Camp McCain will come up with some excuse to avoid this scenario....And everyone will know that they don't believe her to be ready for anything.......

......Thereby reflecting very poorly on McCain's judgement....

REMEMBER...it's not about running against Palin (mistake) ....it's about McCain's reckless judgement of choosing her.

SvK


----------



## midphase

For anyone interested, Michael Moore's new film Slacker Uprising is now available for free on iTunes:

http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewMovie?id=291612480&s=143441 (http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZSt ... 0&amp;s=143441)


----------



## artsoundz

wow- I saw that on I-tunes but didnt catch that it was free. thanks,Kays.


----------



## Ed

Robin Williams on Palin: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3cIhiZlnec


----------



## José Herring

Jose Predictions:

in 3 weeks the McCain campaign will effectively die. 

On Nov. 4th Obama gets elected by 80% of the popular votes and winning a overwhelming majority of the electorate.

Palin will be finished politically, then facing impeachment proceedings as governor of Alaska. She won't be found guilty but her approval rating will drop so low that she'll be finished politically especially in the light of really far out there religious practices.

Democrats will rule for 20 years of peace and prosperity.

The first women president will be Janet Napolitano when Obama steps away in 8 years.

John McCain will break away from the Republican party and start a new party with Joe Leiberman. The party platform will be focused on no donations from special interest groups, A fairly regulated free market system, strong military, and tough stance against totalitarian governments.

This new independent party in 20 years will be the next major party of the US having drawn all of the more moderate minded Reps to it as well as more centrist dems.

I feel that this is a watershed moment in history and that America's future will be really, really good.


Let's see how many I get right.

Keep hope alive in trying times.

best,

Jose


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

It seems pretty obvious to me that the reason McCain wants to duck the debate tomorrow is that he knows Obama will win if issues have anything to do with it.

Before he chose Palin I would have been inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt, but now I don't believe anything he says.


----------



## madbulk

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Sep 25 said:


> It seems pretty obvious to me that the reason McCain wants to duck the debate tomorrow is that he knows Obama will win if issues have anything to do with it.
> 
> Before he chose Palin I would have been inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt, but now I don't believe anything he says.



I don't see that.

He doesn't avoid it, he only delays it. And it's evident that the debate will go on now anyway. The stalling the vp debate idea SvK put forth seems òŠ   †2ØŠ   †2ÙŠ   †2ÚŠ   †2ÛŠ   †2ÜŠ   †2ÝŠ   †2ÞŠ   †2ßŠ   †2àŠ   †2áŠ   †2âŠ   †2ãŠ   †2äŠ   †2åŠ   †2æŠ   †2çŠ   †2èŠ   †2éŠ   †2êŠ   †2ëŠ   †2ìŠ   †2íŠ   †2îŠ   †2ïŠ   †2ðŠ   †2ñŠ   †2òŠ   †2óŠ   †2ôŠ   †2õŠ   †2öŠ   †2÷Š   †2øŠ   †2ùŠ   †2úŠ   †2ûŠ   †2üŠ   †2ýŠ   †2þŠ   †2ÿŠ   †3 Š   †3Š   †3Š   †3Š   †3Š   †3Š   †3Š   †3Š   †3Š   †3	Š   †3
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----------



## SvK

More Palin today on Couric....The Russian Border Thing..........

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/2 ... 29318.html

SvK


----------



## José Herring

The Deal has been reached. McCain never stopped his campaign or made it to Washington. Yet he still wants to postpone the debate.

McCain's campaign must be in a chicken coop. 'Cause all I see is chicken shit.

Jose


----------



## Ed

Im confused can someone explain how putting off the debate will help the economy? Just the general idea?


----------



## artsoundz

SvK @ Thu Sep 25 said:


> More Palin today on Couric....The Russian Border Thing..........
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/2 ... 29318.html
> 
> SvK



oh....my....god.......


----------



## madbulk

josejherring @ Thu Sep 25 said:


> The Deal has been reached. McCain never stopped his campaign or made it to Washington. Yet he still wants to postpone the debate.
> 
> McCain's campaign must be in a chicken coop. 'Cause all I see is chicken [email protected]#t.
> 
> Jose



He may not have really "stopped" his campaign, that was probably a white lie from the beginning -- semantics, but McCain did make it to Washington. So did Obama. Deal is not done yet. There is still some posturing to be wrung from this for both of em. They're just approaching it differently.
I can't imagine McCain will say he wants to postpone it after a deal is formally announced. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

artsoundz @ 25/9/2008 said:


> oh....my....god.......



Wow. She's dumber than Dubya!!! Hide the matches!!! >8o


----------



## José Herring

Oh it gets much worse.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=5881256


----------



## Ed

My God that woman is dangerous


----------



## artsoundz

SvK @ Thu Sep 25 said:


> More Palin today on Couric....The Russian Border Thing..........
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/2 ... 29318.html
> 
> SvK



I just saw this clip again on CNN and had to laugh because I swear, at the end,the look on her face said - "i'm an idiot, aren't I?" .

I mean, it looked like even SHE wasn't buyin' it.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Jon, I missed your post about the debate.

As I said before, all that kind of analysis turns the future of human civilization into a parlor game for talking head wankers. I find it very frustrating, because it's what makes these elections a mockery of democracy - no offense to you, of course, because on one level you may well be right.

However, here's my expert analysis: Biden should stand up there and crush the holy living sh out of that dope and show the world how much he's in command of the issues and she isn't! F- "not appearing too tough on the woman" or some crap; he's got to make it clear that this isn't that parlor game, that a whole lot of very real issues are what it's all about. And if the moderator doesn't ask tough questions, he should say as much: let's talk about the real issues facing the world right now, not play games.

Obama has to do the same thing. McCain's "straight talk" is code for lipstick on entirely the wrong policies for our world, and Obama has to explain that clearly! We've seen twice how being a wimp-ass sissy doesn't work; Democrats have to stop trying to appear nice or whatever it is they're supposed to look like in order to appeal to whatever fricking demographic it is they want to please AND JUST SPEAK THE TRUTH!

Don't hammer on the talking points. Hammer on reality! People are capable of understanding why dividing our friends and uniting our enemies doesn't work. Or that we must have a new energy economy regardless of what's happening on Wall St., because the one we have now is coming to an end whether we like it or not. Or that unconditional support for Israel isn't in Israel's or our interest - we're much more useful being impartial mediators.

I saw part of a speech in which Biden explained why sabre rattling isn't constructive. It doesn't allow diplomacy to work, and in the case of, say, Iran it only unites the anti-government moderates in support of their government against us!

Palin doesn't get any of that at all, and he's got to show her up for what she is. Just being an aggressive bitch with extreme opinions doesn't qualify you to be President of the United States.

The winner of any debate is the one who makes his case the best. I don't give a frick what those assinine talking heads think.


----------



## Robobino

What the hell is that?... ~o) 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npUMUASwaec


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Ladies and Gentlemen, the next President of the United States.


----------



## Evan Gamble

Robobino @ Thu Sep 25 said:


> What the hell is that?... ~o)
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npUMUASwaec



What 

the 


fuck

Reminds me of this..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WALIARHHLII


BTW I already sent my absentee ballot for Florida in. Let's hope Obama takes it-should be close.


----------



## Fernando Warez

Evan Gamble @ Thu Sep 25 said:


> Robobino @ Thu Sep 25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What the hell is that?... ~o)
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npUMUASwaec
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What
> 
> the
> 
> 
> f#@k
> 
> Reminds me of this..
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WALIARHHLII
> 
> 
> BTW I already sent my absentee ballot for Florida in. Let's hope Obama takes it-should be close.
Click to expand...


Man you stole my line! :lol: Seriously! It's good to see I'm not the only one...


----------



## Fernando Warez

Barby for vice president!




o=<


----------



## JonFairhurst

Nick,

I totally agree with you about what wins a debate for you and me. Unfortunately, we also have to be concerned about what wins a debate for low-information voters. It's amazing how much this is like electing the student body president. Some people vote for the good candidate. Others vote for the populaòŠ   †N©Š   †NªŠ   †N«Š   †N¬Š   †N­Š   †N®Š   †N¯Š   †N°Š   †N±Š   †N²Š   †N³Š   †N´Š   †NµŠ   †N¶Š   †N·Š   †N¸Š   †N¹Š   †NºŠ   †N»Š   †N¼Š   †N½Š   †N¾Š   †N¿Š   †NÀŠ   †NÁŠ   †NÂŠ   †NÃŠ   †NÄŠ   †NÅŠ   †NÆŠ   †NÇŠ   †NÈŠ   †NÉŠ   †NÊŠ   †NËŠ   †NÌŠ   †NÍŠ   †NÎŠ   †NÏŠ   †NÐŠ   †NÑŠ   †NÒŠŽ   †NÓŠŽ   †NÔŠŽ   †NÕŠŽ   †NÖŠŽ   †N×ŠŽ   †NØŠŽ   †NÙŠŽ   †N


----------



## navidson

It's going to be close, but I think Obama can edge it. I really hope so at least, especially with McCain turning the whole thing in to a complete farce with his latest hi-jinks. It's pretty unbeliveable that there's still some mileage in the Republican party now, and there's still every chance for them to clinch it if Obama puts a single foot wrong.

These debates had better go ahead! At the very least I want to watch Palin floundering in front of the world next week. Schadenfreude to the max!


----------



## Christian Marcussen

I think it would be political suicide not to show up at the debate - and therfore I think he will.


----------



## madbulk

I don't think it's a great stretch, and this thread sort of supports the idea, that when you're fully aligned with an ideology or really dis-aligned with one, you're predisposed to finding nothing but proof of your position and the idiocy of the other.

Just the most current example...
The "shutting down the campaign thing," is not a clear gaffe. I don't think it becomes a win for Obama at all. Could turn and become one, but right now I bet this serves McCain well. And if it doesn't, it may still have been a decent move given the circumstances. In any event, it does not, to me, signal "wheels comin' off." So when it doesn't move the needle, try not to be so continually amazed.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

"Seriously, what is wrong with so many Americans"

Nothing more than what's wrong with people anywhere. The problem is what I ranted about above: we have a mockery of democracy, in which the candidate who can repeat repeat repeat the most base, simplistic solutions to the complicated problems of the world wins. Our news media have long ceased to be the Fourth Estate and are under corporate control. (Faux News and its filth is insidious.)

Meanwhile, our elections are so expensive that politicians pander to the special interests who give them campaign contributions (aka bribes). As soon as they get in they're under pressure to think about the next campaign.

All this has become much worse over the past eight years. The truth is that it's easy to sell anything to an uninformed public. That's always been and always will be.


----------



## JB78

Thank you Mr Cafferty!!!

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=L8__aXxXPVc


Finally someone speaks up...


----------



## artsoundz

right- and what's Wolf running for? lame as well.


----------



## Evan Gamble

Here we go....


----------



## midphase

so it was kinda "Meh" for me!

Obama seemed like he came across too "wordy" and missed out on some good opportunities to lash out to McCain. Maybe he's just sizing the guy up...but it reminded me an awful lot of Kerry.

McCain on the other hand seized some opportunities and took some cheap shots (like the one about not having a presidential seal yet) which I think worked in his favor.

Obama also need to work a bit more on sounding less "stumbly" in his dialogue....he has a tendency of stopping mid-sentence which can come across as unsure.

Overall neither candidate came across particularly exciting or witty, Obama will have to do a lot better than that to put some distance in the polls....hopefully this was just a warm-up.


----------



## José Herring

They both were just afraid of making a mistake. I felt that Obama cornered McCain leaving him speechless at times. Also, McCain seems to have a fumble grasp on the middle east. Doesn't really get it.

On the other hand McCain seemed way more confident. Especially, as Kays mentioned, the Obama stutter is really annoying. It undercuts what is really a sharp intellect making him seem a little Elmer Fuddish at times.

My prediction is that this debate isn't going to change the race at all. 

Jose


----------



## Thonex

McCain did better than I thought he would... Obama did about what I expected.

McCain came of off as an old curmudgeon... and Barak came across as more statesmanly.

I know it's cliche, but McCain really did sound like more of the same.. and Obama sounded more like change.


----------



## JonFairhurst

How can either expect to win a foreign policy debate, when they can't even see Russia from their houses? Jeez!

I watched the debate on CNN. They had a reò‹   †nV‹   †nW‹   †nX‹   †nY‹   †nZ‹   †n[‹   †n\‹   †n]‹   †n^‹   †n_‹   †n`‹   †na‹   †nb‹   †nc‹   †nd‹   †ne‹   †nf‹   †ng‹   †nh‹   †ni‹   †nj‹   †nk‹   †nl‹   †nm‹   †nn‹   †no‹   †np‹   †nq‹   †nr‹   †ns‹   †nt‹   †nu‹   †nv‹   †nw‹   †nx‹   †ny‹   †nz‹   †n{‹   †n|‹   †n}‹   †n~‹   †n‹   †n€‹   †n‹   †n‚‹   †nƒ‹   †n„‹   †n…‹   †n†‹   †n‡‹   †nˆ‹   †n‰‹   †nŠ‹   †n‹‹   †nŒ‹   †n‹   †nŽ‹   †n‹   †n‹   †n‘‹   †n’‹   †n“‹   †n”‹   †n•‹   †n–‹   †n—‹   †n˜‹   †n™‹   †nš‹   †n›‹   †nœ‹   †n‹   †nž‹   †nŸ‹   †n ‹   †n¡‹   †n¢‹   †n£‹   †n¤‹   †n¥‹   †n¦‹   †n§‹   †n¨‹   †n©‹   †nª‹   †n«‹   †n¬‹   †n­‹   †n®‹   †n¯‹   †n°‹   †n±‹   †n²‹   †n³‹   †n´‹   †nµ‹   †n¶‹   †n·‹   †n¸‹   †n¹‹


----------



## midphase

"I'm not looking for someone to have a beer with. I'm looking for someone to lead."

Unfortunately for you...back in 2000 and 2004 you would have been in the minority....seems like lots of people voted for Bush because...he looked like someone they could "hang out with at a BBQ"

Let's just hope that the voting public has changed and is now more concerned with policy than personality.


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## Ed

midphase @ Sat Sep 27 said:


> Let's just hope that the voting public has changed and is now more concerned with policy than personality.


Heh Bush.. personality. heh


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## Christian Marcussen

Ok...

I just watched the whole debate, after reading your comments. I think Obama came away from that very, very well.. 

Obama seemed very competent, knowledeable, and statemanlike. He outclassed McCain completely. he may not have 'experience'... but he has everything else in spades and I think he managed to send the message that he can make up for it. 

McCain started out suprisingly well, but Obama woke up later and got into it.


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## José Herring

The only thing I didn't like about McCain is that he seemed really condescending to Obama. Its a personal matter. But, I thought it was uncalled for. McCain has more experience, sure, I can give him that, but Obama's not an idiot. Everytime McCain touted his experience. Obama counter jabbed but calling to question his record and judgement.

I, like Navidson, woke up this morning realizing that Obama made a good case with a clear cut plan. All I remembered of McCain's performance was that he was mean.

Jose


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## Thonex

I stayed up pretty late watching CNN... and then some polls came in.. polls conducted on Independents. The results were clear cut advantages to Obama on all 3 poll questions... the most significant poll differential was on the question "Who do you think would do a better job with the American Economy".... I think the numbers were like 64% Obama and 36% McCain.

The independent vote is HUGE.... and especially in the "battle ground" states. I think this may have been the last chance for McCain to hit a home run... and he didn't... especially with independents. Sure, there will be other debates... but this was on foreign policy, supposedly McCain's strong area... and Obama stayed right there with him. The other debates are only going to be tougher for McCain and easier for Obama.

I don't want to jinx it, but I think Obama will most likely be the next American President.


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## blue

midphase @ Sat Sep 27 said:


> Unfortunately for you...back in 2000 and 2004 you would have been in the minority....seems like lots of people voted for Bush because...he looked like someone they could "hang out with at a BBQ"



Unfortunate for all of us. I remember people at the time lauding Bush for his "common appeal" and thinking WTF! Being a regular dude -or at least appearing that way- is not a qualification for running a freaking superpower. I want someone who is intelligent, well-spoken, possesses good judgment and-of course- agrees with me. :D That combination is far from common!


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## José Herring

navidson @ Sat Sep 27 said:


> Looking forward to the VP debates now! I'm bringing a pillow to hide behind, it's going to be great.



I feel sorry for the girl. At this point I almost want to give her a pity vote. Kind of like a consolation prize. "Thanks for playing" kind of a thing. But, she is just so out of her league. Maybe she'll get it together for the debates. And, maybe Joe Biden will make the biggest gaffs of his career. 

But, as it stands now he's in a hard spot. She's already proven she's an idiot on certain things. So if he goes balls out on her she'll get a lot of sympathy. But, if he's too soft she'll win on congeniality. I actually think it's going to be tougher than debate McCain. McCain is a hard ass and everybody knows it. You can beat on him all day long and he'll get up and take some more while dishing some more out. Palin won't be like that. I'm almost half expecting her to cry. Her last interview she looked so nervous and was a complete babbling fool. I don't think she can take much more of the lime light.

Jose


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## Nick Batzdorf

I thought it was a surprisingly good debate that really focused on the issues rather than only the talking points. While I would have liked Obama to have answered the "we're winning in Iraq and are going to come home with honor" line better - something that should be very easy to dismiss, because it's bullshit - I'm more and more impressed with him. He's definitely grown since he started as a candidate.

And McCain frightens me now. He's certainly not stupid, and he makes his cases very well. But he has this seething persona that isn't right for a leader. For a Senator, sure, but the President is supposed to put a civilized face on our country - and not just a face.


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## Nick Batzdorf

...none of which is to say that I don't wish Obama were able to stay farther left and not be pulled so far toward the "center" (which to me is already to the right). Drilling for oil off the coast is *not* a good idea. Nor is nuclear power in its present form - it has to be made a lot safer, and I believe it can be. I'm not opposed to it, but it's very dangerous right now.


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## Chrislight

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Sep 27 said:


> And McCain frightens me now. He's certainly not stupid, and he makes his cases very well. But he has this seething persona that isn't right for a leader. For a Senator, sure, but the President is supposed to put a civilized face on our country - and not just a face.



Totally agree Nick. McCain seems to pride himself on not being "Miss Congeniality" as he stated several times in the debate - like that was some badge of honor. His refusing to look at Obama once and just glaring ahead didn't show well at all - it came across as being rude and unprofessional. It makes you wonder how he would handle situations where diplomacy is a must. Besides his "well known" temper, he seems to have a bit of a nasty streak and can certainly appear very cold and mean at times. All of this may prove to be his undoing, because like it or not, people do get swayed by how a person appears. I personally think these things are definitely important as they can reveal a lot about somebody.

These excerpts from an article I was reading earlier pretty well sum it up:

"...McCain appeared angry and dismissive of Obama and generally impressed as someone who would slap colleagues across the aisle if reaching over to them. He said several times in the debate that he hasn't won the Miss Congeniality contest in the Senate, and he proved why during the debate.

I suspect that women voters especially would be turned off by McCain's sarcastic tone because women do tend to be the conciliators in our society and saw Obama display those conciliatory qualities very well in the debate. Obama looked at McCain, and McCain wouldn't return the eye contact but rather glared or displayed a tight and angry expression.

I also suspect (but don't have the data to support) that older voters were also turned off... I believe older voters will also be reassured that, though McCain has been around longer, Obama has a good grasp of foreign affairs and can learn quickly. He impressed as a statesmen, in marked contrast to McCain's warrior demeanor.

McCain referred to Obama as naive or as not understanding on many issues when the listener probably saw a mere difference of opinion. McCain's condescension felt annoying; to the listener who might agree or disagree with Obama, Obama nevertheless was making good points, not naive ones.

In general, I think the country is tired of negativity, and McCain's performance didn't give anyone the impression that age has mellowed him. In fact, he seemed rather proud of his continuing bellicose manner. The country seems ready for a change from the "fighting as first choice crowd."


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

And I agree with that. When McCain didn't look at Obama it seemed like he was being dismissive. Obama was looking at him and talking, and he just kept taking notes like he wasn't interested in what this ridiculous Democrat had to say.

But that alone wouldn't be enough for me to be opposed to him, of course. His VP pick sort of undermines the credibility of anything else he says, doesn't it. This is not the person someone out for the good of the country picks:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cP12aNzo ... ture=bz301


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## JonFairhurst

I've heard of "executive privilege" for the president (though the language is not to be found in the US Constitution), but for governors and their staff???

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26906256/

No one who defies a subpoena should be elected for or appointed to any political office at any level - regardless of party affiliation.


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## synthetic

I miss Quayle.


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## JB78

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=oUtnFGIjzAo

The president of Iran is really a fierce monster... :roll: 

While I certainly don't agree with his views on the holocaust, gay rights etc...I have a really hard time seeing this guy try to nuke Israel or any other country for that matter. He seems smart enough to realize that that would mean the end of Iran as well, why would he want that?

It's also interesting to hear that he's tried to contact Bush several times but that he refuses to even talk to him. When you couple this with McCain/Palins view that diplomacy is out of the question, it looks very likely that Iran will be attacked if Obama loses this election. I can't even imagine how nervous the people in Iran who follows this election must feel.


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## Christian Marcussen

JB78 @ Sun Sep 28 said:


> http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=oUtnFGIjzAo
> 
> The president of Iran is really a fierce monster...



I assume your are ironic? But to me he comes off as "snake-like" and sly... really rethorical and playing "were just peaceful, and want eerybody to be happy"... He seems very untrustworthy to me...


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## JB78

Christian Marcussen @ Sun Sep 28 said:


> JB78 @ Sun Sep 28 said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=oUtnFGIjzAo
> 
> The president of Iran is really a fierce monster...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I assume your are sarkastic? But to me he comes off as "snake-like" and sly... really rethorical and playing "were just peaceful, and want eerybody to be happy"... He seems very untrustworthy to me and really seems like he is playing a game.
Click to expand...


I don't see him as any more or less trustworthy than Bush, Cheney and the rest of the crew. 

What kind of game would that be? What could he possibly win?


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## Christian Marcussen

JB78 @ Sun Sep 28 said:


> Christian Marcussen @ Sun Sep 28 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JB78 @ Sun Sep 28 said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=oUtnFGIjzAo
> 
> The president of Iran is really a fierce monster...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I assume your are sarkastic? But to me he comes off as "snake-like" and sly... really rethorical and playing "were just peaceful, and want eerybody to be happy"... He seems very untrustworthy to me and really seems like he is playing a game.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't see him as any more or less trustworthy than Bush, Cheney and the rest of the crew.
> 
> What kind of game would that be? What could he possibly win?
Click to expand...


Well think about it... what could he win by convincing the world he is not pursuing nuclear weapons?


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## JB78

Christian Marcussen @ Sun Sep 28 said:


> Well think about it... what could he win by convincing the world he is not pursuing nuclear weapons?



No, you tell me...what would he do with them? 

Do you seriously believe that he would practically make sure that Iran would cease to exist just so he can nuke Israel?


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## Nick Batzdorf

"What, exactly, does this add to the conversation?"

You're an apologist, Richard, and I find your line that everyone here is stupid just slightly insulting.

There's a big difference between stuttering when you're tired and clearly having no fricking idea what the hell you're talking about. Palin is bad comedy.

And you know it.


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## Nick Batzdorf

Even the right-wing talking heads are starting to admit that Palin is a ridiculous pick, by the way.


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## JB78

rgames @ Sun Sep 28 said:


> Robobino @ Thu Sep 25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What the hell is that?... ~o)
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npUMUASwaec
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dunno - at least it's not as bad as this:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omHUsRTY ... re=related
> 
> Of course, Palin isn't running for president and she's not the "great orator" so we expect less, correct?
> 
> 
> You can find similar examples for any politician. They get tired. It happens.
> 
> What, exactly, does this add to the conversation?
> 
> rgames
Click to expand...



Well, if Palin had been campaigning for as long as Obama and she had screwed up one speech out of say a hundred, you'd have a point. Coming across as an airhead is the least of the problems I have with her, it just adds to the big picture. 

Besides, can you really attribute her defending the laughable idea that living in Alaska has given her foreign policy experience?

That's stretching things a bit don't you think?

[/img]


----------



## JonFairhurst

Palin has given one big speech at the convention (and it was done well). She has delivered excepts at campaign rallies. She has answered all of four questions at a mini press conference. She has given three interviews (one with Hannity pretty much asking "why does Obama suck?") . And from this we have to figure out who she is.

On the positive side, she can deliver a good speech, she's charming and she's pretty. She can stick to the talking points.

On the negative side, she didn't know what the Bush Doctrine was, even though it was the rationalization for the current war. She tries to defend her foreign policy experience with nonsense. And, when discussing economic policy related to the $700B bailout, she wasn't able to make any sense. 

Strike three.

I hope the moderator holds both Biden's and Palin's feet to the fire. She only has one big unscripted test before the election. Let's hope we get more than a small glimpse at who both candidates really are.


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## Christian Marcussen

JB78 @ Sun Sep 28 said:


> Christian Marcussen @ Sun Sep 28 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well think about it... what could he win by convincing the world he is not pursuing nuclear weapons?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, you tell me...what would he do with them?
> 
> Do you seriously believe that he would practically make sure that Iran would cease to exist just so he can nuke Israel?
Click to expand...


You lack imagination 

Of course e would not nuke Israel... But might he let nuke technology slip into the hands of the wrong people so Iran can't take any blame?

Add to that it would change the balance og power completely and potentially set off a nuclear arms race. 

In all simplicity I really, really, REALLY do not wan't to see nuclear weapons in the hands of one of the worlds main sponsors of terrorism or worse, in the hands of a religious fundementalist regime. With more rational nations you can hope that mutually secured desruction would be enough to ensure no one fires the first nuke. That hope becomes a little smaller when you are dealing with someone who in their core beleive that martydom is the most glorious thing you can acheive. 

So yes... I beleive IRAN does have an interest in getting Nukes, and I beleive that this would be a very bad thing if it happens. Lucikly it seems both candidates agree


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## JB78

Of course all fingers would be pointing at Iran if it was a fact that they had nuclear weapons and such a scenario as you described would occur. 

Don't you think the Iranians realize that as well? If not I think you're the one lacking the imagination... 

If any terrorists gets their hands on nukes in the near future I see it as far more likely that they're supplied by Pakistan which already has them. 

I don't want to see nukes in anyones hands really. I think that this should be solved by diplomacy and not force, if M&P gets elected I fear that the latter will be the case.


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## JonFairhurst

Today, all fingers would point to Russia, given that they have the most materials, and possibly limited controls. And don't forget that Pakistan has nukes today.

That's assuming that any of us still have fingers to point...

One way or another, stopping nuclear proliferation and containing existing weapons and materials is one of the great challenges of the day.


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## Thonex

Obama tied with his biggest lead ever:


http://www.gallup.com/poll/110740/Gallu ... -Lead.aspx


:D


----------



## José Herring

And here it is my friends. The beginning of the end. 

Palin has to release her financial records. She's "postponed" it until after the VP debates. When I heard that I knew she was hiding something. Every time I see her in an interview she looks nervous as if she's hiding something.

Well her finances are starting to leak. And it stinks:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080928/ap_on_el_pr/palin_ethics (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080928/ap_ ... lin_ethics)

In the next 3 weeks we'll see Palin the maverick turn into Palin the criminal, power abusing executive.

I still predict death of the McCain campaign in 3 weeks. I'll pick a date now. Oct. 15th.

My other prediction also shows signs of coming true. McCain, Leiberman and Guillianni are going to start a new 3rd party.

Jose


edit: And, I'm going to put my clairvoyances chops to the test with this one. I predict that Alabama will vote for Obama. (Now if I get this one right I'll impress even myself.)


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## artsoundz

I'm not a fan of Palin whatsoever- but this is pretty weak. Flowers and a a facial in a small Alaskan town- well, that's just right neighborly and will be perceived as such. It may well backfire...

I say hammer on her intellect as it relates to running a world power.


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## Robobino

This is not "criminal"... It's just your normal american behavior.

It's criminal only if your skin is darker...


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## Thonex

artsoundz @ Sun Sep 28 said:


> I'm not a fan of Palin whatsoever- but this is pretty weak. Flowers and a a facial in a small Alaskan town- .



Read on... it's a little more than that. Getting zoning changed so she could sell her lake front house, getting laws changes that would directly benefit her father's store etc. These are not "Huge" deals compared to what you may see in NY or L.A. , but in a town of 7000, these are proportionally significant and reveal her "politics as usual" habits.

My opinion.

T


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## Nick Batzdorf

"she's charming and she's pretty"

I think she's gross.


----------



## artsoundz

Oh, I agree with you and Jose completely. I'm a landowner and have intimate experience w/developers and politics and such. 

I'm just saying-and really more thinking out loud-that these kinds of things are common with many community leaders/politicians/developers and are small potatoes in the big scheme of things. I don't think these things will impress many as being terribly corrupt. 

But to be clear, I'd love to be wrong and see people (repubs and dems) rally behind this kind of trashy behavior-but I won't hold my breath.

I do believe,however, that Jose's link is important in establishing a pattern of behavior. 

But, really, she's just too easy without that. She's definitely a confidence booster for Dan Quayle right now. I'm happy for him. : )


----------



## Fernando Warez

Christian Marcussen @ Sun Sep 28 said:


> JB78 @ Sun Sep 28 said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=oUtnFGIjzAo
> 
> The president of Iran is really a fierce monster...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I assume your are ironic? But to me he comes off as "snake-like" and sly... really rethorical and playing "were just peaceful, and want eerybody to be happy"... He seems very untrustworthy to me...
Click to expand...


Crap to that post! Everything the guy said is true, you can look it up. You buy into this western propaganda way too easily. look at Iran's war record and look at the US war records and there's no comparison. The US has boomed 70+ countries since WW2, and it's stupid to believe these countries were boomed for their own good even though some people around here seem to think so. :roll: Iran has been at peace with it's neighbour for the most part of their existence(1700 years). I'd much rather see them with nukes than the US the only country to have lunch 2 nuclear weapons(against civilians on top of that), and for absolutely no good reason. 

This is all about Israel wanting to get ride any opposition in the region. And these freaking crazy Zionist are willing to risk WW3 just for a few kms. Iran is not a threat to anyone. But they are being threaten buy Israel and the US.


----------



## Robobino

Fernando Warez @ Sun Sep 28 said:


> Crap to that post! Everything the guy said is true, you can look it up. You buy into this western propaganda way too easily. look at Iran's war record and look at the US war records and there's no comparison. The US has boomed 70+ countries since WW2, and it's stupid to believe these countries were boomed for their own good even though some people around here seem to think so. :roll: Iran has been at peace with it's neighbour for the most part of their existence(1700 years). I'd much rather see them with nukes than the US the only country to have lunch 2 nuclear weapons(against civilians on top of that), and for absolutely no good reason.
> 
> This is all about Israel wanting to get ride any opposition in the region. And these freaking crazy Zionist are willing to risk WW3 just for a few kms. Iran is not a threat to anyone. But they are being threaten buy Israel and the US.



+1000!!


----------



## José Herring

artsoundz @ Sun Sep 28 said:


> I'm not a fan of Palin whatsoever- but this is pretty weak. Flowers and a a facial in a small Alaskan town- well, that's just right neighborly and will be perceived as such. It may well backfire...
> 
> I say hammer on her intellect as it relates to running a world power.



Oh, trust me. This is just the tip of the Alaskan Iceberg. It establishes a pattern early on that she uses political power for personal gains. This is before her finances are even being released.

There will be more. I'm sure of it.

Jose


----------



## Fernando Warez

JonFairhurst @ Sun Sep 28 said:


> Today, all fingers would point to Russia, given that they have the most materials, and possibly limited controls. And don't forget that Pakistan has nukes today.
> 
> That's assuming that any of us still have fingers to point...



But that's obviously not how it would play out. The masses have been brainwashed and prepared to believe terrorist or Iran would be behind that ''mushroom cloud'' remember? Besides, what could Russia gain from doing this? What could the US gain from blaming Russia and lunching nukes on Russia knowing full well Russia as 50 000 nukes ready to lunch? Remember the cold war? Iran and other Muslim countries like Syria and Pakistan would be wiped out by Israel and the allies because at this point the trauma would be so great the neocon(including the democrats) would jump on this opportunity to do want they wanted for a long time. So clearly Russia doesn't stand to gain anything from this since they do business with and support Iran and Syria. Iran, Syria and Pakistan obviously don't stand to gain anything for this either because they'd be wiped out. So who stand to gain? I don't see US gaining much from this since they risk getting into a nuclear war with Russia. But Israel stand to gain a whole lot since all those who oppose them in the region would be wiped out. So logic dictate Israel are the ones more likely to be responsible for such an attack. But of course, they'd framed Muslim for it obviously. And Israel has a history of doing that kind of thing, remember the US liberty? Or the Lavon affair...



> In 1954, Israeli agents working in Egypt planted bombs in several buildings, including a United States diplomatic facility, and left evidence behind implicating Arabs as the culprits. The ruse would have worked, had not one of the bombs detonated prematurely, allowing the Egyptians to capture and identify one of the bombers, which in turn led to the round up of an Israeli spy ring.



http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICL ... lavon.html

http://www.gtr5.com/


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

"Iran is not a threat to anyone."

What basis do you have for saying that?

I don't believe all the hype and absolutely don't believe we should be attacking or threatening Iran. But I also think your comments are ludicrous.


----------



## JB78

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Sep 29 said:


> "Iran is not a threat to anyone."
> 
> What basis do you have for saying that?
> 
> I don't believe all the hype and absolutely don't believe we should be attacking or threatening Iran. But I also think your comments are ludicrous.



If Iran hates jews so much how come there are 25 000+ living there? They even have their own representative in the government with equal say, even though they usually require 150 000 people per representative.

I'm not saying you're wrong Nick, I'm just wondering what official threats has come from Iran or what basis you have for your beliefs?

It's a bad thing whenever a country is developing nuclear weapons but it's seems too high of a price to invade a sovereign country (again) in "self defense" don't you think?

Here's what George Galloway has to say about it:

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=jtw5Zy2M6rk


Best regards
Jon


----------



## JohnG

JB78 @ 29th September 2008 said:


> I'm not saying you're wrong Nick, I'm just wondering what official threats has come from Iran or what basis you have for your beliefs?



Jon -- are you kidding? President Ahmadinejad has issued a number of specific, dire threats against Israel, including "annihilation." His language is threatening and sounds like that of a demagogue. He is a Holocaust denier, a criminal offense in some civilized countries. He is clearly on the far fringe of civilised discourse in a number of respects. Iran has for many years sòŒ   †¬âŒ   †¬ãŒ   †¬äŒ   †¬åŒ   †¬æŒ   †¬çŒ   †¬èŒ   †¬éŒ   †¬êŒ   †¬ëŒ   †¬ìŒ   †¬íŒ   †¬îŒ   †¬ïŒ   †¬ðŒ   †¬ñŒ   †¬òŒ   †¬óŒ   †¬ôŒ   †¬õŒ   †¬öŒ   †¬÷Œ   †¬øŒ   †¬ùŒ   †¬úŒ   †¬ûŒ   †¬üŒ   †¬ýŒ   †¬þŒ   †¬ÿŒ   †­ Œ   †­Œ   †­Œ   †­Œ   †­Œ   †­Œ   †­Œ   †­Œ   †­Œ   †­	Œ   †­
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----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Yes, especially if you're a Jew!


----------



## Chrislight

Hey all -

This topic is already 17 pages long, with a lot of off-topic discussion. Perhaps there could be another topic started for the Iran discussion, plus a new one for the election stuff would be good.  

Thanks!


----------



## midphase

I agree


----------



## JonFairhurst

Looking at the "rudderless" option in the thread title, I had no idea how apt it would be...

* McCain says that the foundations of the economy are strong
* Within the week, McCain says we need the bailout to avoid another Great Depression

* McCain suspends his campaign to "lead" on the bailout
* McCain's offices remain open and his ads continue running during the "suspension"

* McCain tells Letterman he needs to cancel, so he can go to Washington
* McCain instead does an interview with CBS News and stays in New York another day. (He did make it in time for the photo shoot with the president.)

* McCain says he won't debate until the bailout is passed
* McCain "blinked" and debated anyway

* McCain chided Obama for "calling it in"
* McCain didn't actually go to Capitol Hill during the leadup to the vote. He called people from his office.

* McCain and Romney claim that McCain's leadership led to the passage of the bailout. Hurrah!
* Um, guys, the vote hadn't happened yet. The bailout vote failed.

* 67% of House Republicans and 40% of House Democrats voted against the bailout.
* John McCain blamed Obama.

Warning! Loose canon on deck!!!

This is the guy we want with his finger on the button???


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## JB78

Yeah, and it's especially funny that McCain accuses Obama of "putting politics in front of his country"...look who's talking


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## wonshu

JB78 @ Tue Sep 30 said:


> Yeah, and it's especially funny that McCain accuses Obama of "putting politics in front of his country"...look who's talking



I think it's not so much funny but more of a farce.

All you guys in the US: I'm so proud that this horrendous bill got rejected! Perhaps your economy will shift a little bit towards an economy where you spend what you can afford as opposed to living on credit. Living on credit is a ticking time bomb and the opposite of freedom! Freedom means you can at any day say: f*§$ all of you, I'm leaving... Whereas the modern interpretation of freedom is: I can afford everything. Yes to a certain extent it goes hand in hand but at the end of the day it's as a say... 

I hope I can keep it up for myself, so far it has worked!

Best
Hans


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## JB78

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/2 ... 30012.html

Can't say that I'm surprised...


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## Christian Marcussen

JB78 @ Tue Sep 30 said:


> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/28/palin-claimed-dinosaurs-a_n_130012.html
> 
> Can't say that I'm surprised...



Well, at least she is in a line with a mojority of her voters. Also keep in mind a majority of Americans beleive in Noah's Arc _litterally_...


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## Robobino

Haha, reminds me of a cartoon I made for my blog...

http://www.robertrivard.net/Postitorama/Doomsday/Doomsday-21.jpg


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## blue

Christian Marcussen @ Tue Sep 30 said:


> Well, at least she is in a line with a mojority of her voters. Also keep in mind a majority of Americans beleive in Noah's Arc _litterally_...



Really? Where did you hear this?


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## Thonex

Christian Marcussen @ Tue Sep 30 said:


> JB78 @ Tue Sep 30 said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/28/palin-claimed-dinosaurs-a_n_130012.html
> 
> Can't say that I'm surprised...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, at least she is in a line with a mojority of her voters. Also keep in mind a majority of Americans beleive in Noah's Arc _litterally_...
Click to expand...


Hey Christian, go to Google images and type in "noah's arc".... is that what you say most Americans believe in? :D 

here... (in Palin's voice) I'll make it easy fur ya:

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q ... ages&gbv=2


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## JohnG

I have met several Americans, none of whom believed in Noah's Ark.


Except...

How did I get my dog then? Can you explain that?


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## JB78

JohnG @ Tue Sep 30 said:


> I have met several Americans, none of whom believed in Noah's Ark.
> 
> 
> Except...
> 
> How did I get my dog then? Can you explain that?



According to the creationist museum in Kentucky dinosaurs where on Noah's Ark as well:

"Exhibits show the Grand Canyon took merely days to form during Noah’s flood, *dinosaurs coexisted with humans and had a place on Noah’s Ark*, and Cain married his sister to populate the earth, among other Biblical wonders."


http://www.lifeinthefastlane.ca/museum-says-dinosaurs-were-on-noahs-ark/offbeat-news (http://www.lifeinthefastlane.ca/museum- ... fbeat-news)


If that were the case having velociraptors would be all the rage among current pitbull owners...:mrgreen: 


Seriously though, if that poll is correct I have been very lucky when it comes to the american friends I have over the net and IRL.

Best regards
Jon


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## Christian Marcussen

blue @ Tue Sep 30 said:


> Christian Marcussen @ Tue Sep 30 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, at least she is in a line with a mojority of her voters. Also keep in mind a majority of Americans beleive in Noah's Arc _litterally_...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really? Where did you hear this?
Click to expand...


Do you ask because you are really interested, or as a debate tactic because you think I make shit up? 

Polls have shown this, and it was widely reported. In an ABC poll from 2004 showed that 60& of Americans litterally beleived in the account of genesis. Other polls have shown similiar results. Further data: Less than half of Americans believe in Evolution (42%) while 75% believe in Angels. 

So... to get back to my original point (and why it's relevant to this thread). Inspite of some of her ridiculous beliefs they are quite compatible with her potential voters and her overall views on religion and science are not far from a majority of Americans in general.


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## Christian Marcussen

JohnG @ Tue Sep 30 said:


> I have met several Americans, none of whom believed in Noah's Ark.



Lucky you


----------



## Christian Marcussen

Thonex @ Tue Sep 30 said:


> Christian Marcussen @ Tue Sep 30 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JB78 @ Tue Sep 30 said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/28/palin-claimed-dinosaurs-a_n_130012.html
> 
> Can't say that I'm surprised...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, at least she is in a line with a mojority of her voters. Also keep in mind a majority of Americans beleive in Noah's Arc _litterally_...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hey Christian, go to Google images and type in "noah's arc".... is that what you say most Americans believe in? :D
> 
> here... (in Palin's voice) I'll make it easy fur ya:
> 
> http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q ... ages&gbv=2
Click to expand...


LOL.. what the hell? :D


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## Robobino

God created dinosaurs in His own image...


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## Nick Batzdorf

"How did I get my dog then? Can you explain that?"

We got ours from a breeder.

(No, not in the gay sense...)


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## JB78

http://pa.lindro.me/

Hilarious!!! Make sure you check out the "user section".


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## artsoundz

gold.

Thanks!

edit-here's mine. http://pa.lindro.me/?w=227


----------



## blue

Christian Marcussen @ Tue Sep 30 said:


> [Do you ask because you are really interested, or as a debate tactic because you think I make [email protected]#t up?



I ask because I find those numbers hard to believe, even though I'm well aware we excel in farming idiots here. I just found the ABC poll story online and I'm truly horrified. I think you can blame our pathetic educational system as well as our insatiable appetite for trivial entertainment and material pursuits. Wow.


----------



## Christian Marcussen

blue @ Tue Sep 30 said:


> Christian Marcussen @ Tue Sep 30 said:
> 
> 
> 
> [Do you ask because you are really interested, or as a debate tactic because you think I make [email protected]#t up?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I ask because I find those numbers hard to believe, even though I'm well aware we excel in farming idiots here. I just found the ABC poll story online and I'm truly horrified. I think you can blame our pathetic educational system as well as our insatiable appetite for trivial entertainment and material pursuits. Wow.[/
Click to expand...


:D Fair enough... just curious 

Lol... yep. It is indeed horrifying. Also consider that just short of 50% believe (either are certain, or find it very likely) that Jesus will return within the next 50 years, bring armageddon and save the world. 

Now, not only do these people make up a large part of the electorate, but as Sam Harris rightly points out - they also get ELECTED to political office. And if you _really_ believe such things it colors your world view to a dangerous degree - think about foreign policy. To me this is one of the scary things about Palin. 

When evaluating a polititian I find it to be a good test to imagine what the country would be like if the polititian had absolute power, and could pass any laws or reforms they wanted. Try do that with the current candidates... Again Palin's world scares me. Luckily she is 'only' VP but... But who knows. 

I hope we dodge the bullet.


----------



## JohnG

Christian Marcussen @ 30th September 2008 said:


> just short of 50% believe (either are certain, or find it very likely) that Jesus will return within the next 50 years, bring armageddon and save the world.



Actually, he's right here in my studio. He visits all the time and talks about fire and brimstone and eternal pain -- what a card!


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## Christian Marcussen

JohnG @ Wed Oct 01 said:


> Christian Marcussen @ 30th September 2008 said:
> 
> 
> 
> just short of 50% believe (either are certain, or find it very likely) that Jesus will return within the next 50 years, bring armageddon and save the world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, he's right here in my studio. He visits all the time and talks about fire and brimstone and eternal pain -- what a card!
Click to expand...


Can you ask him who wins in November?


----------



## artsoundz

JohnG @ Wed Oct 01 said:


> Christian Marcussen @ 30th September 2008 said:
> 
> 
> 
> just short of 50% believe (either are certain, or find it very likely) that Jesus will return within the next 50 years, bring armageddon and save the world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, he's right here in my studio. He visits all the time and talks about fire and brimstone and eternal pain -- what a card!
Click to expand...



I've hung with him as well. Dont get him started on his dad,though. he wont shut up...I try to tell him " hey, man, get OVER it!"


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## JohnG

I know what you mean -- too serious. At least with him, when you say, "Jesus, lighten up!" you really mean, "Jesus, lighten up!"


----------



## artsoundz

hahahaha...good one. very edgy blasphemy. 

You should probably put in an appearance at church soon just to be safe. : )


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## choc0thrax

http://pa.lindro.me/?w=622

Made one. Didn't exactly put much effort into that.


----------



## artsoundz

Jose- did you just delete yours? It was hilarious.....c'mon! put it back up...

YA know- I was actually thinking about this link today-it may be juvenile. But- it's just too funny to not have a guilty pleasure once in a while. Besides- Sarah brought it on herself.

If there is a chance for her and McCain- I truly want there to be some depth. But there just isnt and that's why it's okay to laugh at her. 

While she is risking the nation, all we are doing is having a laugh. 

It only seems fair.


----------



## José Herring

Yes I did delete it. I thought it might offend people. but, here is the original post. If it offends I'll take it down.

--------------------------------------------------

I'm usually not this juvenile, but I had a hard day.

http://pa.lindro.me?w=692


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

I'm usually at least that juvenile.


----------



## artsoundz

Jose- sorry to hear you had a bad day. Hope it was music related and not personal/family stuff. Karma will forgive you. : ) 

And, ya know- It's not so much about redoing SP's speeches to create this stuff thats funny-even though it is- It's more like the old MAD libs-it's just funny no matter who it's about. "bad boy"--SO funny...

But back to Sarah- just saw Katie C.ask her about the supreme court and what decisions she disagreed with. SP's answer was so pathetic and embarassing-she (SP)couldn't come up with a single example. Not even a hint and was obviously blatantly avoiding the question because she did not know.

There is no excuse for SP's lack of credentials as it relates to this campaign. It's another example of how this culture accepts mediocrity as an acceptable standard.

Sarah isnt stupid. But,realistically, she is just plain ignorant on all things American government and International affairs. I can handle SP being VP ( to be clear-I couldnt handle the nightmare of 4 more years) if it was guaranteed she would stay there. But it is not worth the risk. and neither is that old fool McCain who could easily put the last few nails into the coffin.


----------



## Thonex

artsoundz @ Wed Oct 01 said:


> Sarah isnt stupid.



I'm not so sure. I really don't want to appear rude, maybe I wouldn't call it stupidity... but definitely poor judgment and a massive amount of ignorance. She scares me no end... but the fact that almost 50% of this country consider her a serious candidate scares me even more.


----------



## kid-surf

Thonex @ Wed Oct 01 said:


> artsoundz @ Wed Oct 01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sarah isnt stupid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not so sure. I really don't want to appear rude, maybe I wouldn't call it stupidity... but definitely poor judgment and a massive amount of ignorance. She scares me no end... but the fact that almost 50% of this country consider her a serious candidate scares me even more.
Click to expand...



Ditto...

Down to the way she carries herself, her lack of basic communication skills, slow on her feet. The last few interviews have been painful to watch. 

Looking forward to the debate tonight. But I will say that I feel sorry for her, she's in WAY over her head. Kind of pathetic, really. It's like tripping a retarded kid. Not cool.


I will say this, though... I will NOT vote for McCain. But, the bottom line is that the man knows his shit. Credit where credit is due. I'll also give him credit for being a hot-head know it all.

Here is the main difference between the two as I see it. 

OBAMA -- Will listen to others and consider contrary points of view.

MCCAIN -- It's his mutha' fuckin way or the highway, Jack.


----------



## José Herring

McCain knows his shit when it comes to the military. When it comes to anything else he's a babbling buffoon. 

The last thing we need right now is a leader that thinks the only solution to everything is to bomb it. I'm actually quite disappointed in McCain. I use to like him. But, this campaign of his isn't the McCain I know.

Palin, isn't stupid. She's just been isolated. She suffers from all the psychological problems of isolation. From tunnel vision to an extreme psychosis concerning religion. But, Listen to her speak about Alaska and she's clear articulate, brings up good points.

It all depends on what questions are asked. She knows nothing of foreign policy. She never cared about it. It's confusing to her. She knows nothing about national politics. She never cared one hoot as it didn't affect her in Alaska. But, she knows everything about energy, oil, alternative energy, natural gas--all things Alaskan and all things she can make money from.

I wouldn't count her out yet.

The last thing that Biden should do is actually talk to her directly. He just needs to focus on pounding John McCain and kind of acknowledge her presence at the debate but not directly confront her. If he does directly confront her she'll beat him. Nobody likes a smack down on a woman.

best,

Jose


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

My fear is that she'll be propped up the way Dan Quayle was in the debate after the one where Benson spiked him. Or the way Bush and Reagan were when they debated. Obviously they didn't know what they were talking about, but that didn't seem to matter.

I'm sure you're right that Biden would be best served to ignore her and attack McCain so he doesn't look like a bully, Jose; I've heard talking heads say the same thing. But I hope he does bully her and expose McCain for being a sleazeball for having selected her in the first place. This is frightening, as Andrew says, and when the future of civilization could be at stake it's no time to play games.


----------



## Christian Marcussen

Just saw the Youtube clip of Biden, and then Palin answering the question about Roe v Wade and other supreme court cases... wow


----------



## José Herring

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Oct 02 said:


> My fear is that she'll be propped up the way Dan Quayle was in the debate after the one where Benson spiked him. Or the way Bush and Reagan were when they debated. Obviously they didn't know what they were talking about, but that didn't seem to matter.
> 
> I'm sure you're right that Biden would be best served to ignore her and attack McCain so he doesn't look like a bully, Jose; I've heard talking heads say the same thing. But I hope he does bully her and expose McCain for being a sleazeball for having selected her in the first place. This is frightening, as Andrew says, and when the future of civilization could be at stake it's no time to play games.



Stupidity is dangerous. These people claim to be so religious but don't even value the first thing the Bible teaches. Wisdom above all else. Palin is framing the debate as Joe Biden vs. "Joe Six Pack".

Woman needs to be locked up. I'm hoping that she goes on a non-sequitur verbal diatribe ending in her speaking in tongues tonight.

I wasn't raised Christian. My parents yanked us out of Church at the age of 7 because I got reprimanded by my Sunday school teachers for asking too many questions about how somebody could rise from the dead. At the time I wasn't being critical either. I really wanted to know!!! So after that experience my parents told me and my sister that we weren't going to church any more and that when we got old enough we could chose our own religion. They didn't force any religion on us. 

I bless them to this day for that decision. My wife is Christian and everyday I have to deal with straightening out some blatantly false information that the religion preaches.

Palin is insane. That she has any followers at all is entirely due to the fact that the religion carefully teaches people to follow the leader without any question. All some person has to do is invoke the name of God in an earnest way and he'll have millions of followers. This is scary and no different than those dying in the name of Ala.

Will mankind ever outgrown the need of primitive religions?

I've actually read the Bible from cover to cover. It's a good book. Not even that much wrong with it. But, it always surprises me that most Christians have never read the Bible. Sure they go to church and the preacher man says turn to Luke verse so and so and such and such and they all read. Then the preacher spins the Bible. It's true. These mofos actually try to spin the Bible towards their own view of the world. If I'm in church, which a stumble into about 3 or 4 times a year, I feel like standing up and voicing my protest, but if I did my wife would probably divorce me.

I remember when I was in high school going to a Church in Arizona. All white (no offense). Definitely republican. Just after the preacher read the Sermon on the Mount, you know the one about how the meek shall inherit the earth and stuff, he starts talking about the evil liberals that want to take away our God giving right to bare arms. Holly shit. I couldn't believe it. I wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed in high school, but that shit is just wrong. What does that have to do with Church.

Well I have a new prayer now. "Blessed are those that value reason over fear. Blessed are those that chose wisdom over ignorance."



--Black Jesus


----------



## madbulk

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Oct 02 said:


> My fear is that she'll be propped up the way Dan Quayle was in the debate after the one where Benson spiked him.



So far that move is 0 - 1. I'm not making cause and effect, I just don't think it was a win.
I always thought this a low point for Bentsen and that in this particular exchange Quayle comported himself with dignity. It was, as he said, 'uncalled for.' 

I would bet Biden doesn't go for such a spike it even if he sees it. It's beneath him. And I'm guessing it's specifically not in his gameplan.

And I would bet that when he clearly passes on it, a lot of you are gonna throw something. Have a beer before this, my friends. Not three, one. 

All that said, the important thing is this ...
"What a shame it is to lose one's mind or not to have a mind is being very wasteful."
I know this one by heart, thanks to Imus. Pretty sure it's dead on.


----------



## Ed

josejherring @ Thu Oct 02 said:


> I've actually read the Bible from cover to cover. It's a good book. Not even that much wrong with it.



Really? :?


----------



## JonFairhurst

Christian Marcussen @ Thu Oct 02 said:


> Just saw the Youtube clip of Biden, and then Palin answering the question about Roe v Wade and other supreme court cases... wow


Here's the link: http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4493093n


----------



## José Herring

Ed @ Thu Oct 02 said:


> josejherring @ Thu Oct 02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've actually read the Bible from cover to cover. It's a good book. Not even that much wrong with it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really? :?
Click to expand...


Yeah. The old testament focuses on wisdom. The love of knowledge and having reverence for "The Lord". The last book of the old testament, revelations, is a bit scary but if you don't take it too seriously it's a good read.

The New Testament is completely different. The main points being that love, kindness and a forgiving nature are the ways to spiritual survival. And, if you don't accept or don't know about the idea that heaven is some mythical place beyond the sky then it makes a lot of sense. Then there's the golden rule of do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That's the truest statement ever uttered in the history of mankind. It actually comes from Buddha. Actually in fact about 90% of the teaching of Jesus come from Buddha. But, don't tell anybody that 'cause in America they'll kill ya for saying that! But, it happens to be true. Jesus imo was less a son of God and more of a student of eastern religion that anything else.

Also the Golden rule was translated into the physical sciences by Issac Newton and proven to be true by calculation and experiment. It's known in the physical sciences as, "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction". 

Lots of good lessons that everybody could use. Same with all religious text. There are evil men (and women) that pervert those messages towards the benefit of self over others, and stupid people that believe them.

But, the intent of the Bible is just fine. Even if you never read it if you took away just the idea of the golden rule then your life would be a lot happier. The kingdom of heaven is just a kingdom of spiritual happiness. Still trying to figure out why people think it's some mythical place you go after you die.

If the buddhist is right. If you're happy enough spiritually you'll never die >8o 

I'm ramblin' on now! If you really want to know the basis of all religious thought then check out he Egyptian Book of the Dead. Now that's a good read. If you make it past the first few boring chapters of paying homage to all the Gods. Which in the book they actually have addresses which is a little scary, but anyway. If you make it past all that you'll find in that book one of the basic underlying laws that the universe is built on. It's a simple law. And one that is true but that isn't real. How's that for double talk.

--Ramsa'id


----------



## Alex W

josejherring @ Fri Oct 03 said:


> Ed @ Thu Oct 02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> josejherring @ Thu Oct 02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've actually read the Bible from cover to cover. It's a good book. Not even that much wrong with it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really? :?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah. The old testament focuses on wisdom. The love of knowledge and having reverence for "The Lord". The last book of the old testament, revelations, is a bit scary but if you don't take it too seriously it's a good read.
> 
> The New Testament is completely different. The main points being that love, kindness and a forgiving nature are the ways to spiritual survival. And, if you don't accept or don't know about the idea that heaven is some mythical place beyond the sky then it makes a lot of sense. Then there's the golden rule of do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That's the truest statement ever uttered in the history of mankind. It actually comes from Buddha...
Click to expand...


You say that it "comes from Buddha" as though we wouldn't behave like that if he hadn't ever said it.

The idea that we actually need some book to tell us about love and kindness is what's a load of crap, not the message itself. It's easy to go through the bible and find bits that sound nice, and sound like the sort of thing we should all live by, but what about the nasty bits about slavery and racism? Well of course you should ignore them - they're not really meant to be taken seriously, are they.

By picking and choosing your way through the bible, you're actually utilizing what's evolved as a "common morality" within society. And this has evolved for secular reasons. Do you honestly believe that things like empathy and compassion are only exercised because a book tells us to? We learned these traits long before we were even human.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Well, Palin gave smooth answers...to questions that weren't being asked! Biden was good, but I wish he and Obama would come up with an answer for all the stuff about the surge and how we're going to win, bla bla bla. It really isn't very difficult.

I heard the debate on the radio while driving up to SF for AES. Now I'm going to see if it's different when I see the recording on TV here...


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## Nick Batzdorf

And all the stuff about Saint Reagan was nauseating. I really don't like that woman.


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## choc0thrax

Palin was basically a nervous robot talking a mile a minute. You could tell she wasn't really thinking about what she was saying, it was more like a balloon full of talking points deflating.


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## JonFairhurst

Just what we need. More evasion. She fits right in with Rove, Miers and Gonzales. Her own husband is currently evading a state subpoena.

We don't need straight talk. We need straight answers.

And we don't need somebody seeking the VP spot who believes that the position needs *more* powers. What the *ell was that about???


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## Thonex

choc0thrax @ Thu Oct 02 said:


> Palin was basically a nervous robot talking a mile a minute. You could tell she wasn't really thinking about what she was saying, it was more like a balloon full of talking points deflating.



That's a very accurate description of her perfromance.




JonFairhurst @ Thu Oct 02 said:


> And we don't need somebody seeking the VP spot who believes that the position needs *more* powers. What the *ell was that about???



Yeah... what was that all about?? Personally, I think she just started saying crap that not even SHE understood. 

BTW.... Biden was very clever in bringing up Chaney and in so associating her with him... although Chaney is a very smart guy.

After watching the debate last night, I came away thinking Biden blew her off the stage... at least on pretty much ALL the points. The guy knows his stuff.

T


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## choc0thrax

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=1aBaX9GPSaQ


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## JonFairhurst

This is brilliant...

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/10/3/43222/8057/718/618653 (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/ ... 718/618653)


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## JB78

JonFairhurst @ Fri Oct 03 said:


> This is brilliant...
> 
> http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/10/3/43222/8057/718/618653 (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/ ... 718/618653)



Unfortunately it's funny because it's true... :cry: 


If people will vote for McCain/Palin after this debate it's so fucking sad, no wonder most right-wingers don't believe in evolution since they're clearly not affected by it.


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## Christian Marcussen

JB78 @ Fri Oct 03 said:


> If people will vote for McCain/Palin after this debate it's so [email protected]#king sad, no wonder most right-wingers don't believe in evolution since they're clearly not affected by it.



LOL! :mrgreen:


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## Robobino

Christian Marcussen @ Fri Oct 03 said:


> JB78 @ Fri Oct 03 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If people will vote for McCain/Palin after this debate it's so [email protected]#king sad, no wonder most right-wingers don't believe in evolution since they're clearly not affected by it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL! :mrgreen:
Click to expand...


Double-LOL! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## Chrislight

Robobino @ Fri Oct 03 said:


> Christian Marcussen @ Fri Oct 03 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL! :mrgreen:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Double-LOL! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Click to expand...


Triple-LOL! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 

Definitely right on. This article sums it up too:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/2008/10/the_vp_debate_sarah_the_speedy.html (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpa ... peedy.html)


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## synergy543

Thonex @ Thu Oct 02 said:


> ...I really don't want to appear rude, maybe I wouldn't call it stupidity... but definitely poor judgment and a massive amount of ignorance. She scares me no end... but the fact that almost 50% of this country consider her a serious candidate scares me even more.


Exactly Thon. Its the fact that so many loose sight of the bigger picture that's scary. After all, this isn't a sporting event or election for PTA president. Its sad that America does not seem to have learned its lesson about choosing intellectually inferior candidates for the executive office. Palin's inability to answer the questions being asked made a mockery of the concept of debate. 

Well, change it may be, but change in qualifications, knowledge, and lucid thought is a sad change.

Oh, and no one seemed bothered by her mention of further expanding the powers of the executive office by increasing the roles of the VP? (although, Biden did point out that Cheney is one of the most dangerous VPs in history).

This article really sums it up the focus issue well I think. 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mitchell- ... 31601.html

God Bless America


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## José Herring

Well I for one am glad she made it through that. At first I wanted her to end up in a quivering ball of tears, but as the night went on I was actually routing for her to make it through.

Biden can hold his own. There was no way he was going to lose. He could of gone up against McCain himself and still come out on top. But the match up of Palin against Biden is a little bit like putting me up against Mike Tyson. I would hope that Mike would show a little mercy, let me get in a couple of shots to save face, then take me out gracefully. I thought that Biden did all those things.

best,

Jose

edit. In a way I wish that Obama had picked Hilary Clinton. A debate between Hilary and Palin would have been the thrilla' in Manilla. I would have paid to see that fight.


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## artsoundz

Here is Seattle- one of the news stations did a quick poll and found most believed SP won the debate but Biden cam off more qualified for the job. Bizarre.

I'm glad he didnt pick Hillary. I lost a lot of respect for her and Bill during that campaign and I was IN to them. Even now- there is such a politically motivated unwillingness to commit to Obama that it just makes me cringe. and dont get me started about her supporters jumping overòƒ   ‡‰ƒ   ‡Šƒ   ‡‹ƒ   ‡


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## Ed

Palin kept saying they need to "win" the war on terror. Why do these people still have the fantasy that this is possible!!


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## Fernando Warez

Ed @ Sat Oct 04 said:


> Palin kept saying they need to "win" the war on terror. Why do these people still have the fantasy that this is possible!!



How about that one? ''They hate us for our freedom!'' Makes sense right? :wink:


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## José Herring

Whoa! Shit...

While McCain/Palin are making vague accusations about some questionable connections about Obama. The Obama camp is unleashing a torrent of documented data linking McCain to yet another of the biggest scandals of the last 20 years.

Once this gets out I doubt if McCain will even win my home state of Az.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081007/ap_on_el_pr/mccain_iran_contra (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081007/ap_ ... ran_contra)


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## artsoundz

good. I've been quietly researching this scary "man" for a few months and knew most of this already but it wasn't exposed as credibly as this latest stuff. I think Rstone IS liberal and somewhat biased but most of those facts can't be disputed.

The only thing I disagree with is the giving up info from torture. The truth is, armed forces know and expect this . It's human nature to want to stay alive and I belive JM was put in the most heinous position. 

Beyond that, the man is so far and above ethically challenged than Obama, that any truly honest and critically thinking human should be able to admit as much. To be clear- I was very open to MC at first. Same w/ Hillary-not that Hillary is like MC in any way shape or form.

Guilt by involvement is a different beast than guilt by association.


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## JonFairhurst

artsoundz @ Tue Oct 07 said:


> Guilt by involvement is a different beast than guilt by association.



Best line in the whole thread!


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## José Herring

JonFairhurst @ Tue Oct 07 said:


> artsoundz @ Tue Oct 07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Guilt by involvement is a different beast than guilt by association.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Best line in the whole thread!
Click to expand...


Agreed!


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## artsoundz

awww...you guys..

getting up at the crack of noon. a cup of strong coffee and an article from Rolling Stone helps.


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