# Intel 13th Gen. Intel Processors ... What can we expect ?



## muziksculp (Oct 26, 2022)

Hi,

I'm waiting for the 13th Generation Intel processors to be out, and tested. Also curious what are your thoughts about them, or what you expect from them in terms of improvements in performance compared to the current 12th Gen. Intel Processors. 

I plan to have two new PCs custom built using the 13th Gen. Intel Processors for my Studio, One as master, the other as slave. 

I would be interested in knowing your thoughts about this topic. 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## rgames (Oct 26, 2022)

I'm doubtful there's any value for DAW work but from what I've seen they should be a big improvement for CPU-intensive tasks like video rendering.


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## colony nofi (Oct 26, 2022)

The single core results seem to offer 10-15%ish uptick on processing on these types of tasks (depending on chip), which usually translates to about the same uptick for DAW use.

How that feels to DAW users for composition - likely not huge as Richard suggests, but also not bad. There's a few hidden gems in 13x chips - especially when under clocking / under volting which could be v cool for those who need to build a powerful but very quiet computer. 
Now - which one to get? There's still a lot of testing to do. 13600's look interesting, as do 13900's obviously.


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## cedricm (Oct 27, 2022)

You can expect heat. A lot of heat.

It seems the sweetspot is either the 13600K or the 13700k, which are notable improvements on the 12th gen with more E cores and more cache, which should have an impact on music related work. 

I'd advise to go for DDR4 unless you render (videos or 3D) a lot.


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## Manaberry (Oct 27, 2022)

I can confirm. It runs hot. I'm still tweaking it (limit at 180W and finding the best spot of undervolt).


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## Pictus (Oct 27, 2022)

cedricm said:


> You can expect heat. A lot of heat.
> 
> It seems the sweetspot is either the 13600K or the 13700k, which are notable improvements on the 12th gen with more E cores and more cache, which should have an impact on music related work.
> 
> I'd advise to go for DDR*4* unless you render (videos or 3D) a lot.



For Kontakt DDR5 is much better, check (Results for 13th Gen Intel included)
https://vi-control.net/community/threads/dawbench-2021-suite-intel-12th-gen-results.118203/ 

Also interresting








Intel Core i9-13900K vs. AMD Ryzen 9 7950X at 125W and 65W | Club386


Prefer to keep temperature and power consumption down to lower levels this winter? Here's what happens when the best CPUs are scaled back.




www.club386.com


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## bcslaam (Oct 27, 2022)

Manaberry said:


> I can confirm. It runs hot. I'm still tweaking it (limit at 180W and finding the best spot of undervolt).


What motherboard are you using? Can you please give a link or hints on this undervolting technique? Does it work on 12900k too? 

I'm a mild overclocker but always thought you have to slightly increase volts. Currently overclocking my 12900k to P all cores = 4900ghz and E all cores 3200 ghz on Noctua NH15 with no probs on auto volt. DDR5 at spl 4800ghz on a Gigabyte Aero D.
Much appreciated.


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## cedricm (Oct 27, 2022)

Pictus said:


> For Kontakt DDR5 is much better, check (Results for 13th Gen Intel included)
> https://vi-control.net/community/threads/dawbench-2021-suite-intel-12th-gen-results.118203/
> 
> Also interresting
> ...


Seems impressive on paper but I 'm not convinced you' ll feel any difference in real life, especially with Kontakt. Imo, the money is better spent elsewhere : a better audio interface, bigger SSDs, more RAM or whatnot.

But of course, if money isn't an issue, go with DDR5.


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## Manaberry (Oct 27, 2022)

bcslaam said:


> What motherboard are you using? Can you please give a link or hints on this undervolting technique? Does it work on 12900k too?
> 
> I'm a mild overclocker but always thought you have to slightly increase volts. Currently overclocking my 12900k to P all cores = 4900ghz and E all cores 3200 ghz on Noctua NH15 with no probs on auto volt. DDR5 at spl 4800ghz on a Gigabyte Aero D.
> Much appreciated.


I'm having issues for now with the actual motherboard (PRIME B660M). I may change for a Z690. I have not yet digged up too much with UV for now.


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## rgames (Oct 27, 2022)

cedricm said:


> I 'm not convinced you' ll feel any difference in real life


I agree, unless your real life is running benchmarks!

The problem in the DAW world, or at least the VI piece of it, is there's no widely adopted, relevant benchmark like the Puget suite or Cinebench. I create my own benchmarks and they've shown only tiny changes over the last 10 years' worth of processor upgrades. I run the same basic instruments at the same basic latency with the same basic output per week that I did 10 years ago.

I don't know for certain but I suspect that the rest of the DAW world has experienced the same basic lack of progress because 10 years ago, guys who really pushed latency got it down to about 1 ms. Today, guys who push latency get it down to ... <drumroll> ... about 1 ms. What has changed is you can now run 100 compressors at 1 ms latency as compared to only 70 a decade ago. But nobody runs 100 compressors much less 70, so who cares?

However, productivity in video rendering absolutely has improved with new processors over the last decade, and that fact is reflected in the Puget and Cinebench results because they're relevant benchmarks.


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## Manaberry (Nov 3, 2022)

bcslaam said:


> What motherboard are you using? Can you please give a link or hints on this undervolting technique? Does it work on 12900k too?
> 
> I'm a mild overclocker but always thought you have to slightly increase volts. Currently overclocking my 12900k to P all cores = 4900ghz and E all cores 3200 ghz on Noctua NH15 with no probs on auto volt. DDR5 at spl 4800ghz on a Gigabyte Aero D.
> Much appreciated.


Hey, just to give an update about the situation. The motherboard I previously have (B660M-A) is a piece of junk. The system was unstable and my TB PCI card voided the POST.
I'm waiting for a new motherboard next week. I will then try some undervolt thing.


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## Andrew Aversa (Nov 3, 2022)

rgames said:


> I agree, unless your real life is running benchmarks!
> 
> The problem in the DAW world, or at least the VI piece of it, is there's no widely adopted, relevant benchmark like the Puget suite or Cinebench. I create my own benchmarks and they've shown only tiny changes over the last 10 years' worth of processor upgrades. I run the same basic instruments at the same basic latency with the same basic output per week that I did 10 years ago.
> 
> ...



Everyone has their own workflow. We've seen firsthand that customers who have older machines with weaker processors struggle with instruments that have voice counts; likewise, older CPUs are not so good at running modern amp sims (not just ours, but also NeuralDSP and others) which can use 25-30% for a single instance. As for running that many instances of certain plugins... well, some people do! My own personal projects usually have hundreds of plugins from synthesizers and reverbs to EQs, compressors, tape emulations, etc. Every time I upgrade my computer I'm able to run substantially more things before hitting buffer crackles, even with all other things being equal.


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## bcslaam (Nov 3, 2022)

Manaberry said:


> Hey, just to give an update about the situation. The motherboard I previously have (B660M-A) is a piece of junk. The system was unstable and my TB PCI card voided the POST.
> I'm waiting for a new motherboard next week. I will then try some undervolt thing.


Yeah I have a hunch that the z670 and to a lesser extent the z690 chipset is inherently problematic especially with resources, cpu lanes and usb. Lots of coverups and failures that might be due to certain chipset combinations. BTW dont buy the ASUS TUF Wifi DDR4 z670 that one has very bad usb performance and bad low latency performance, spikes constantly in DPC test.
I put that one together with 128gb of DDR4 and it failed dismally, so I decided to take all strain off its resources, just 4 internal drives, no sound card basic gpu and it runs alright as a VEPro server. I then went to z690 ie the Gigabyte Aero which is a lot better but still has its own usb dropout issues causing spikes every now and then.

I wonder if the z790 boards will be better. There is already and Aero z790.

It seems that Gigabyte and Asus/Asrock kinda alternate between one series and the next in terms of design quality and service quality. In my view Asus is behind Gigabyte in the z6x0 series.


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## Manaberry (Nov 4, 2022)

bcslaam said:


> Yeah I have a hunch that the z670 and to a lesser extent the z690 chipset is inherently problematic especially with resources, cpu lanes and usb. Lots of coverups and failures that might be due to certain chipset combinations. BTW dont buy the ASUS TUF Wifi DDR4 z670 that one has very bad usb performance and bad low latency performance, spikes constantly in DPC test.
> I put that one together with 128gb of DDR4 and it failed dismally, so I decided to take all strain off its resources, just 4 internal drives, no sound card basic gpu and it runs alright as a VEPro server. I then went to z690 ie the Gigabyte Aero which is a lot better but still has its own usb dropout issues causing spikes every now and then.
> 
> I wonder if the z790 boards will be better. There is already and Aero z790.
> ...


I can bet! Never going to buy any "mid-range" motherboard again haha.
I've ordered a Gigabyte Z690 AORUS Elite DDR4. That should do the trick.


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## bcslaam (Nov 4, 2022)

_Why not go the elite z790? _


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## Manaberry (Nov 4, 2022)

bcslaam said:


> _Why not go the elite z790? _


More expensive and I want to keep my DDR4. (I have not seen many DDR4 available where I live).


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## Manaberry (Nov 7, 2022)

What a relief. The new motherboard works like a charm. The 13900KF seems to handle the Model D emulation from Moog much much better.


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## Manaberry (Nov 8, 2022)

@bcslaam Hey! I found the best way to undervolt the chip after hours of failed attempts and BIOS reset. I'm sub 200W with a bit of tweaking and still get amazing performance (39K seems to be the score at @ stocks, so almost 37K is awesome).





In the BIOS, I set the max and min ring ratio to 38. The P-cores ratio is at 52, and E-cores is at 42.
I use the setting *Override Vcore*, and the value I've set for now is 1.010v (went up from 0.970 cause of instability).
The CPU went from 280 to 300W to 190W. Huge improvement.


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## GtrJazz (Nov 12, 2022)

Manaberry said:


> @bcslaam Hey! I found the best way to undervolt the chip after hours of failed attempts and BIOS reset. I'm sub 200W with a bit of tweaking and still get amazing performance (39K seems to be the score at @ stocks, so almost 37K is awesome).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Would you say you can easily run a full template on a single machine with the new 13th gen?


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## Manaberry (Nov 12, 2022)

GtrJazz said:


> Would you say you can easily run a full template on a single machine with the new 13th gen?



My 10980XE was able to do so, no doubt for this one!


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## GtrJazz (Nov 13, 2022)

Manaberry said:


> My 10980XE was able to do so, no doubt for this one!


Good to know, thanks. Perhaps I can get away with building a new system using the 13600k instead. Either way it will be an upgrade from my old Mac mini and 2600k.


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## PaulieDC (Nov 13, 2022)

Glad this thread is here, good info. I’ve been collecting components for months for my new tower (been 4 years). CPU, mobo and ram are the last I need. Just ordered the i9-13900KF last night ($574 on Amazon btw, lowest price ATM), just waiting for MSI to release their Carbon Wi-Fi Z790 board. I’ll get the ram last because the prices continues to drop, no reason to rush it. In all of the towers I have built in the last 12 years, upper-end MSI motherboard’s never disappoint so it’s worth it. That last statement is helping me be OK with spending $479 on the motherboard, lol!


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## Manaberry (Nov 13, 2022)

PaulieDC said:


> Glad this thread is here, good info. I’ve been collecting components for months for my new tower (been 4 years). CPU, mobo and ram are the last I need. Just ordered the i9-13900KF last night ($574 on Amazon btw, lowest price ATM), just waiting for MSI to release their Carbon Wi-Fi Z790 board. I’ll get the ram last because the prices continues to drop, no reason to rush it. In all of the towers I have built in the last 12 years, upper and MSI motherboard’s never disappoint so it’s worth it. That last statement is helping me be OK with spending $479 on the motherboard, lol!


Are you going for DDR5 or DDR4? I've been tweaking my DDR4 timings and it does help with the 13900.


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## DJN (Nov 13, 2022)

Manaberry said:


> My 10980XE was able to do so, no doubt for this one!


Just curious, why did you move from the 10980XE to the 13900KF? What improvements are you hoping to achieve? Asking because, I'm thinking of a new machine for Cubase and the 10980X has been recommended as a good choice. Would be interested to know if the 13900KF performs better for you.


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## Manaberry (Nov 13, 2022)

DJN said:


> Just curious, why did you move from the 10980XE to the 13900KF? What improvements are you hoping to achieve? Asking because, I'm thinking of a new machine for Cubase and the 10980X has been recommended as a good choice. Would be interested to know if the 13900KF performs better for you.


I'm not actually. I have two computers. A DAW machine and a DSP machine. The DAW previously had a 10900K (now a 13900KF), and my DSP machine still has the 10980XE.
I'm not going to sell or change my 10980XE anytime soon. It's one of the few that can handle 256GB. And to be honest, the 10980XE is quite a beast still.


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## DJN (Nov 13, 2022)

Manaberry said:


> I'm not actually. I have two computers. A DAW machine and a DSP machine. The DAW previously had a 10900K (now a 13900KF), and my DSP machine still has the 10980XE.
> I'm not going to sell or change my 10980XE anytime soon. It's one of the few that can handle 256GB. And to be honest, the 10980XE is quite a beast still.


Thanks for your reply! Given your experience with both machines, any reason you choose one over the other as your main DAW? I appreciate you sharing your setup details, it's good to know what's working for people in the real world.


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## Manaberry (Nov 13, 2022)

DJN said:


> Thanks for your reply! Given your experience with both machines, any reason you choose one over the other as your main DAW? I appreciate you sharing your setup details, it's good to know what's working for people in the real world.


Well, as the 10980XE can handle 256GB, it was the right choice for my DSP machine. I have up to 150GB of ram used by my VST when using my template (like a 2-hours project can be quite demanding in resources)
My DAW machine is mainly used for synth, real-time processing, mixing, and mastering. So I need something that can stay strong when I throw hundreds of plugins at it to print in real-time.
I need that extra safe margin of processing. That may be overkill for some people but, for me, that is how I like to work. I don't like changing my buffer size, or anything. I want everything to be steady and flawlessly working.

I see my DSP machine as a marathon runner and my DAW machine as a sprinter. At least, that is how I use them.


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## DJN (Nov 13, 2022)

Manaberry said:


> Well, as the 10980XE can handle 256GB, it was the right choice for my DSP machine. I have up to 150GB of ram used by my VST when using my template (like a 2-hours project can be quite demanding in resources)
> My DAW machine is mainly used for synth, real-time processing, mixing, and mastering. So I need something that can stay strong when I throw hundreds of plugins at it to print in real-time.
> I need that extra safe margin of processing. That may be overkill for some people but, for me, that is how I like to work. I don't like changing my buffer size, or anything. I want everything to be steady and flawlessly working.
> 
> I see my DSP machine as a marathon runner and my DAW machine as a sprinter. At least, that is how I use them.


Thanks again for sharing! Great information and insight into your setup and workflow. I share your logic in using a two system setup to distribute the tasks and workload. This seems to be the best method for real-time peak performance that doesn't break our creative flow. Again, I appreciate you sharing your details and experience!


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## Manaberry (Nov 13, 2022)

DJN said:


> Thanks again for sharing! Great information and insight into your setup and workflow. I share your logic in using a two system setup to distribute the tasks and workload. This seems to be the best method for real-time peak performance that doesn't break our creative flow. Again, I appreciate you sharing your details and experience!


No big deal! That's what this forum is all about, sharing


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## GtrJazz (Nov 13, 2022)

Would the 13600k be enough or is it worth it for the 13900k? I’m mostly using Kontakt and several instances of PLAY. Just seems the 13600 would be a little cooler temp wise


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## Manaberry (Nov 13, 2022)

You can get the 13900K as cool as the 13600K with some BIOS tweaking, but that would require knowledge of how to do so.
The 13600K is an excellent chip. It has the raw power of a great tuned 10980XE (18 cores). So, quite a beast!


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## PaulieDC (Nov 13, 2022)

Manaberry said:


> Are you going for DDR5 or DDR4? I've been tweaking my DDR4 timings and it does help with the 13900.


I decided to go all in so it will be DDR5, but it’s actually my only choice anyway because I have to go for a Z790 so I can run my 5 NVMe 4.0 drives at 4.0, and the Mobo I picked is DDR5.

FWIW, I whittled down the choices to this one, mainly because of 5 NVMe slots on that model, all with heatsink coverage:






MPG Z790 CARBON WIFI


MPG series motherboards offer carbon black color scheme for PC build, tuned for better performance by direct 19 phases VRM power, DDR5 memory with Memory Boost, Lightning Gen5 solution, Premium Thermal Solution, Wi-Fi 6E, 2.5G LAN, USB 3.2 Gen 2x2




us.msi.com


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## MarcusD (Nov 15, 2022)

13700KF is working really great so far for me. Super pleased!!

Running out of RAM before CPU thinks about complaining. Also nice being able to run a decent amount of patches and plugins at low buffer settings. Not done any overclocking, never been that comfortable OCing anyway TBH. Going to see if the DDR5 comes up in a BF sale. Add another 64GB and finally have 128GB 😊

Good CPU 👍


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## GtrJazz (Nov 15, 2022)

MarcusD said:


> 13700KF is working really great so far for me. Super pleased!!
> 
> Running out of RAM before CPU thinks about complaining. Also nice being able to run a decent amount of patches and plugins at low buffer settings. Not done any overclocking, never been that comfortable OCing anyway TBH. Going to see if the DDR5 comes up in a BF sale. Add another 64GB and finally have 128GB 😊
> 
> Good CPU 👍


Can you give us some details as to how many tracks you’re able to playback and at what buffer setting ?


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## MarcusD (Nov 16, 2022)

GtrJazz said:


> Can you give us some details as to how many tracks you’re able to playback and at what buffer setting ?



Not exactly a great test to demonstrate anything, but it'll give you a rough idea... I run out of RAM before anything else. When I get another 64GB in the machine, I'll see how many (realistically) I can do with plugins.


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## YuyaoSG (Nov 16, 2022)

I upgraded my computer from 9900k to 13900k. It works great. I add 128GB RAM to my computer. Right now I finally can use VSL libraries in Cubase.


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## Daniel Patrick Swain (Nov 26, 2022)

YuyaoSG said:


> I upgraded my computer from 9900k to 13900k. It works great. I add 128GB RAM to my computer. Right now I finally can use VSL libraries in Cubase.


is this DDR4? I have heard people are having issues still with having 4 sticks of DDR5.


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## Daniel Patrick Swain (Nov 26, 2022)

MarcusD said:


> Not exactly a great test to demonstrate anything, but it'll give you a rough idea... I run out of RAM before anything else. When I get another 64GB in the machine, I'll see how many (realistically) I can do with plugins.



Did you hear much about the problems people are having still with DDR5 and running with 4 sticks?? I thought that wasn't a possibility yet. Would love to hear any updates if you found any info I haven't about it. I want to build a new machine and could get DDR4 x4 sticks to get 128 gb much cheaper and easier andnnot sure you can even build yet a 128gb ddr5 machine yet. So a little stuck where as this is concerned. Could get 64 of ddr5 and wait...


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## MarcusD (Nov 26, 2022)

Daniel Patrick Swain said:


> Did you hear much about the problems people are having still with DDR5 and running with 4 sticks?? I thought that wasn't a possibility yet. Would love to hear any updates if you found any info I haven't about it. I want to build a new machine and could get DDR4 x4 sticks to get 128 gb much cheaper and easier andnnot sure you can even build yet a 128gb ddr5 machine yet. So a little stuck where as this is concerned. Could get 64 of ddr5 and wait...


Not yet. Still using 64GB, but I might buy the other 64GB and try it out though.

I’ve noticed there’s a bios update for my board z790 Mag Tomahawk DDr5 - at the bottom there’s txt saying “higher memory capacity”

Need to have a read later when I’m home and see if what this references too.

At the moment though, been having some issue with Cubase 12 and performance spikes. Just going through the motions to see what’s causing it.


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## Daniel Patrick Swain (Nov 26, 2022)

MarcusD said:


> Not yet. Still using 64GB, but I might buy the other 64GB and try it out though.
> 
> I’ve noticed there’s a bios update for my board z790 Mag Tomahawk DDr5 - at the bottom there’s txt saying “higher memory capacity”
> 
> ...


so you having trouble with even two sticks of 32? I thinkng to future proof myself but also seems too early. quite an awkward stage to start collecting parts. Want to eventually have 128 so I can start using bigger templates.


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## MarcusD (Nov 26, 2022)

Daniel Patrick Swain said:


> so you having trouble with even two sticks of 32? I thinkng to future proof myself but also seems too early. quite an awkward stage to start collecting parts. Want to eventually have 128 so I can start using bigger templates.


Everything works fine, other than Cubase. It'll play sessions and work as normal, but I do get performance spikes in the meter on idle in Cubase. However, when monitoring it via the task manager, there are no spikes. I think it might be software-related, not hardware. Probably a driver issue, but trying to figure it out is like finding a needle in a haystack. Other than that, the build works like a charm.

EDIT: Think I found the problem... OPUS. For some reason, if Multithreaded reverb/voice render is ON. It causes it to spike performance. Even if nothing going on in the project. When it's turned OFF totally fine.


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## MarcusD (Nov 26, 2022)

EDIT - Ignore this, just realised hyperthreading was turned off. I'm re-doing the tests (and filming them separately with OBS) and will upload them as I go.


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## inthevoid (Nov 26, 2022)

Daniel Patrick Swain said:


> Did you hear much about the problems people are having still with DDR5 and running with 4 sticks?? I thought that wasn't a possibility yet. Would love to hear any updates if you found any info I haven't about it. I want to build a new machine and could get DDR4 x4 sticks to get 128 gb much cheaper and easier andnnot sure you can even build yet a 128gb ddr5 machine yet. So a little stuck where as this is concerned. Could get 64 of ddr5 and wait...


If it helps, I'm running a 12th gen Intel machine / Z690 mb with 64GB DDR5 RAM (4x16GB) built by Scan 3XS and it's been completely smooth sailing. At some point down the line I might upgrade to 128GB, but for now this is running a very healthy full orchestral template and a load of software synths just fine.

This is on Win 11, in both Cubase 12 and Reaper at 256/512 buffer size. Barely get the fans spinning up!


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## YuyaoSG (Nov 26, 2022)

Daniel Patrick Swain said:


> is this DDR4? I have heard people are having issues still with having 4 sticks of DDR5.


I am using 4x32 DDR5. What’s the brand of your motherboard?


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## MarcusD (Nov 26, 2022)

OK - here's the "re-test" (none scientific) with Hyperthreading enabled. Keep in mind I'm recording using OBS (although using the NVEC encoder). The video is unlisted BTW.

• Spire 1.5 Synth
• Smart:EQ3
• 13700KF
• 64GB DDR5 5200mhz
• MSI MAG Tomahawk Z790 WIFI DDR5

Max approximately 430 instances of SmartEQ 3 set to 100% Dynamic with Liniar Phase enabled. 42 Instances of Spire Synth.



Here's a link to the project file (all tracks are disabled)





SPIRE TEST - SmartEQ3 - Google Drive







drive.google.com





Will re-do the other tests and upload them as well.


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## MarcusD (Nov 27, 2022)

Tried using Kontakt 7 to create a split articulation test. 5 Instrument tracks, 5 different patches, playing 5 different MIDI parts. These were then duplicated until the project couldn't play back. Just to note, the Sample Pool was updated for the patches to avoid running out of RAM first.

The maximum before crashing was 505 tracks, probably could have done a few more if more memory was available. But OBS died and caused the project to follow it to the grave. These are just rough approximations based on playback. In real-world use, you could probably half the amount of tracks for each buffer (below) when using plugins etc...

• 128 Buffer - roughly 400 to 425 tracks (for playback)
• 256 Buffer - roughly 425 to 435 tracks (for playback)
• 512 Buffer - roughly 435 to 445 tracks (for playback)
• 1024 Buffer - roughly 445 to 465 tracks (for playback)
• 2048 Buffer - roughly 460 to 505+ (ran out of RAM)


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## Manaberry (Dec 2, 2022)

2 graphs from DAWbench. Pretty happy with my 13900KF move.
Intel still has to improve the performance per watt but with a bit of tweaking, it's possible to reduce the CPU consumption with voltage tweaking.


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## oboemaroni (Dec 3, 2022)

How are you finding the temperature/noise/power use with the 13900k?


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## Manaberry (Dec 3, 2022)

oboemaroni said:


> How are you finding the temperature/noise/power use with the 13900k?


Far better than my previous 10900K. I managed to get under 200W @ full load. On 25% CPU music project, it's about 50 degrees and the fans are dead silent.






Intel 13th Gen. Intel Processors ... What can we expect ?


Hi, I'm waiting for the 13th Generation Intel processors to be out, and tested. Also curious what are your thoughts about them, or what you expect from them in terms of improvements in performance compared to the current 12th Gen. Intel Processors. I plan to have two new PCs custom built...




vi-control.net


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