# Serena Williams: F, NY fans: A+



## Guy Bacos (Sep 12, 2009)

Watching the US open tonight between Serena Williams and Kim Clijsters. WOW! What an ending! This doesn't surprise me one bit from Serena, I never did like the Williams sisters much, I always found them arrogant and sore losers. I thought Serena had changed in the recent years but she quickly came back to her old habits.

I must say one thing, the american spectators outclassed Serena, they did not appreciate her drama and manifested it by booing her and applauding Clijsters as she totally deserved the victory. The fact that Serena is american didn't seem to matter to the NY fans. 

Bravo NY fans, you showed class!

Guy
a proud neighbor


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## NYC Composer (Sep 12, 2009)

did you like John McEnroe? Ilie Nastase?


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## bryla (Sep 12, 2009)

beware of the Danish/Polish wondergirl Wozniacki! She's just like me - only more succesful.
She'll kick Clijsters ass....


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## kid-surf (Sep 13, 2009)

"arrogant and sore losers"

You've just described 99.39427186% of the creative and sports world...corporate world too. Did I forget anyone?

I would have told that busy body line judge to "fuck the fuck off" too. Let the players play. WESTSIDE!


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## kid-surf (Sep 13, 2009)

Wozniacki = hot

First tennis player I'd say that about...aside from Björn Borg.


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## bryla (Sep 13, 2009)

hot? really??


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## hbuus (Sep 13, 2009)

bryla @ Sun Sep 13 said:


> beware of the Danish/Polish wondergirl Wozniacki! She's just like me



She's got breasts. You've got...no wait, I don't want to know.


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## nikolas (Sep 13, 2009)

bryla @ Sun Sep 13 said:


> hot? really??


http://www.rankopedia.com/CandidatePix/519.gif
Looks hot enough to me... :twisted:


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 13, 2009)

kid-surf @ Sun Sep 13 said:


> "arrogant and sore losers"
> 
> You've just described 99.39427186% of the creative and sports world...corporate world too. Did I forget anyone?
> 
> I would have told that busy body line judge to "fuck the fuck off" too. Let the players play. WESTSIDE!



In the words of John McEnroe:  You can't be serious??? 

Seriously, that's not true at all. Several of the most dominant players in the last 25 years were very classy players, just to name one of my fav Pete Sampras: class act, but others as well.


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 13, 2009)

As for HOT, I like Ana Ivanovic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txfqoa9J0tU


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## RiffWraith (Sep 13, 2009)

Guy Bacos @ Sun Sep 13 said:


> Watching the US open tonight between Serena Williams and Kim Clijsters. WOW! What an ending! This doesn't surprise me one bit from Serena, I never did like the Williams sisters much, I always found them arrogant and sore losers. I thought Serena had changed in the recent years but she quickly came back to her old habits.
> 
> I must say one thing, the american spectators outclassed Serena, they did not appreciate her drama and manifested it by booing her and applauding Clijsters as she totally deserved the victory. The fact that Serena is american didn't seem to matter to the NY fans.
> 
> ...



NYers (of which I still consider myself one) don't care where you come from, nor where you reside. They care about class and sportsmanship. Sure, they tend to start off rooting for the American, if there is no reason not too. But as soon as the American acts un-American, it's see ya later...

Cheers.


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## choc0thrax (Sep 13, 2009)

I'm not a huge tennis fan but I do appreciate it's contribution to my google image searches for cameltoe.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Sep 13, 2009)

I'm with Guy here.

Yes, there are plenty of brats in sports but to me, the ultimate package is a great athlete WITH class.

The Williams sisters definitely don't fall in that category.
Glad Serena got her butt kicked


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 13, 2009)

bryla @ Sun Sep 13 said:


> beware of the Danish/Polish wondergirl Wozniacki! She's just like me - only more succesful.
> She'll kick Clijsters ass....



I'll bet Clijsters win the final.




NYC Composer @ Sun Sep 13 said:


> did you like John McEnroe? Ilie Nastase?



Nastase is before my time, but from what I've seen I don't like him.

McEnroe, is an interesting case. The boy you loved to hate, like Simon Cowell, a mix of entertaining, mean, rebellious, fun, best player of his time. He was great for tennis.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 13, 2009)

Nastase was one of the most graceful players ever, Guy.

And he used to get points and games taken away too when he went nuts. I didn't see Serena's outburst, but threatening to shove the ball down a linesman's throat might be considered just a little OTT.

I've always liked the way Clijsters plays.


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 13, 2009)

Nick,

I know Nastase was a great player, so is Serena, but that's beside the point, the plays I've seen of him he was very unsportsman, I didn't like his crazy side. When you get paid large sums of money to play there's no excuse to go nuts like he did. To complain about a decision is one thing and tolerated but to go mad is something else.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 13, 2009)

I'm not saying that kicking a linesman (which Nastase did) is a good thing, Guy.

On the other hand, it's too easy to pile on with OTT indignance when athletes do things like that. We all have faults.

Well, *I* don't. But everyone else has faults.


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 13, 2009)

What's OTT?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 13, 2009)

over the top


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 13, 2009)

I can't speak for each situation of the past since I'm sure there were particular circumstances for each one of them, all I can say is that Serena was beyond the tolerable limit in my book. She knew she was about to loose and was out played through out the match, what she also did is took away the satisfaction of the winning player to win in triumph. In the past when she felt threatened by certain players I remember she would suddenly come up with an injury. She is simply a sore looser!


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## mf (Sep 13, 2009)

The line judge's behavior was completely disgusting. Serena was too kind, that bitch deserved much worse. What was her name again?


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 13, 2009)

Kim Clijsters is the women's US Open 2009 champion! What a come back, amazing! 
=o


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## NYC Composer (Sep 14, 2009)

and she's blonde. and white. ( in case I didn't make myself clear with my earlier query).

You say you don't like the Williams sisters, they're sore losers, but you sort of admired McEnroe, who was about the sorest loser I ever saw...but he was good for tennis. But the Williams sisters aren't?

Hmmm.

Her outburst was way outa line, no question. Still.


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 14, 2009)

NYC Composer @ Mon Sep 14 said:


> and she's blonde. and white. ( in case I didn't make myself clear with my earlier query).
> 
> You say you don't like the Williams sisters, they're sore losers, but you sort of admired McEnroe, who was about the sorest loser I ever saw...but he was good for tennis. But the Williams sisters aren't?
> 
> ...



First of all, I never said that the Williams sisters weren't good for tennis. Please read carefully what I write without implying anything I didn't say. Second of all, I was very specific to why I thought McEnroe was good for tennis, oddly enough the British loved him when he was playing.


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 14, 2009)

Moving on.... Here's a question:

Who are your all time 5 favorite tennis players, M & W? Although any players can be named, even from 1892, Joseph Abraham? Who? lol, but I would prefer players you actually saw play in their prime rather than players you only saw highlights from the past, but if you like, that's also fine.


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## bryla (Sep 14, 2009)

goran ivanisevic!


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 14, 2009)

Need 4 more, it's top 5 now.


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## bryla (Sep 14, 2009)

Don't know. The only tennis I have EVER watched were the Wimbledon tournament he won


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 14, 2009)

bryla @ Mon Sep 14 said:


> Don't know. The only tennis I have EVER watched were the Wimbledon tournament he won



And if I remember correctly Ivanisevic entered Wimbledon that year as a wild card.


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 14, 2009)

1-Roger Federer
2-Pete Sampras
3-John McEnroe
4-Andre Agassi 
5-Rafael Nadal


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## hbuus (Sep 14, 2009)

Not being interested in tennis whatsoever, I can still remember Gabriella Sabatini from Argentina!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_sK6O7q1TURQ/S ... batini.jpg


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## Ashermusic (Sep 14, 2009)

RiffWraith @ Sun Sep 13 said:


> Guy Bacos @ Sun Sep 13 said:
> 
> 
> > Watching the US open tonight between Serena Williams and Kim Clijsters. WOW! What an ending! This doesn't surprise me one bit from Serena, I never did like the Williams sisters much, I always found them arrogant and sore losers. I thought Serena had changed in the recent years but she quickly came back to her old habits.
> ...



You have to be kidding. The average New York fan's idea of class is washing his feet before he eats with them. :twisted: 

Yankees suck!

You would never guess I am from Boston


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 14, 2009)

I'm sure NY has different social class, but the middle and upper class seems quite classy people.


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## Ashermusic (Sep 14, 2009)

Guy Bacos @ Mon Sep 14 said:


> I'm sure NY has different social class, but the middle and upper class seems quite classy people.



Snob! Elitist!


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## Jaap (Sep 14, 2009)

It has been a long time ago since I watched tennis (stopped watching more or less when I started studying music and gave up tennis playing), but due to reasons I am not as mobile as I should be and watched some tennis the last week.

I was kinda shocked by the agressive behaviour of Williams and allthough I liked McEnroe a lot in the years back I found that somehow less agressive (was more an image). I am happy Clijsters won :D

Ok my top 5:

1: Steffi Graf
2: Stevan Edberg
3: John McEnroe
4: Boris Becker 
5: Andre Agassi

And I feel old suddenly naming only tennis players from the far past


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 14, 2009)

"and she's blonde. and white 

You say you don't like the Williams sisters, they're sore losers, but you sort of admired McEnroe, who was about the sorest loser I ever saw...but he was good for tennis. But the Williams sisters aren't?"

Speaking for myself:

I love black people; I just don't find the Williams sisters to be particularly attractive personalities. They're much better now, but especially at the beginning they had an astonishing lack of grace when they were interviewed after matches. Of course they're both amazing players, but I prefer watching players with more classic strokes that I can try and emulate. They rely on power too much for my taste, although that's become less so over time as well.

McEnroe was a jerk but an amusing one. His groundstrokes are terrible! Yet in spite of his groundstrokes, he had incredible touch. He also played some of the best matches of all time, especially against Kid-Surf's boyfriend.

He's also very bright, quick witted, and insightful as a commentator.


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 14, 2009)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Sep 14 said:


> McEnroe was a jerk but an amusing one.



Yes, just look at today how people and pro players loves to do their McEnroe impressions and that always brings a smile to peoples faces. I'm not sure if Serena will want to be remembered and portrait as saying: "I'd like to shove this ball down your throat!"

Another difference, McEnroe, although he never changed during his pro career, would al least admit making a fool of himself and apologize for his behavior. Serena hasn't made any apologies, not even to her fans, her press conference was very disappointing. 

If the Williams sisters would of been better mannered from the start, they probably would of been the most talked about story in tennis.

Nick, just wondering, why don't you use the "quote"? It's less confusing.


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## kid-surf (Sep 14, 2009)

"When you get paid large sums of money to play there's no excuse to go nuts like he did."

I'm glad you made visible your inner truths. Your implication is that the less one earns, the more you'll tolerate. I find that POV fascinating.

But...

That's going nuts to you? Ok, I guess I'm from a different neighborhood. In my view, it was a simple mater of "lost temperament" - innocuous and trivial. To be expected, at some point, under such personal pressures to be THE BEST IN THE WORLD. (Ever sought to do that? No? Well then, how in the world could you possibly walk a mile in her shoes? The answer seems to be that you will not, cannot - which, by the way, speaks to one's "class" or lack of. In my opinion.) 

Pardon me for looking at these comments in this way but this IS a creative forum: Comments like this, in all candidness, force me to suspect that the scale used with which to measure human emotion is stunted, if not capped. From that perspective, how can one write powerful works? This idea of class, presented this way, is actually a metaphor for stifled human emotion - the worst trait in the world for a "creative" to posses, best employed by a politician. Show me a creative who doesn't embrace, let alone decipher, human truths and I'll show you a creative who ain't never gonna create nothin' possessin' humanistic truths - which happen to be the MOST valued, MOST coveted, and MOST highly rewarded monetarily and critically.

It has always amazed me to hear "artists" trumpeting the value in restraint. I'm gonna have to "pass" on that POV.

Class? I don't need no class, I'd rather write about those who profess to posess it, they're always the model of contradiction. Ironically, one is paid "large sums of money" to do just that.


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## kid-surf (Sep 14, 2009)

If that was too much rambling for you:

1) The best artists are the most tolerant to human truths.

2) I don't judge her for what I've not experienced.

3) I would have told the judge to choke on my fukcing balls.


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## mikebarry (Sep 14, 2009)

Well I am a NY fan - usually seeing 10+ Ranger's games a year, and a handful of other events. I wouldn't consider the tennis fans the typical NY fan as most of the rest of the sports fans of the big sports don't even watch it. But at games I have seen just about everything happen and I have heard all sorts of cheers and jeerz against allies and foes, its quite unpredictable but we always take a side and it's always passionate. NY fans (at least Rangers fans) have great intelligence and memory, every Rangers game there are the Potvin Sucks chant's for something he did in the 70's - yet on top of that there is an overwhelming "drink beer, mob mentality, hey i'm walking here vibe going on"


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 14, 2009)

mikebarry @ Mon Sep 14 said:


> Well I am a NY fan - usually seeing 10+ Ranger's games a year, and a handful of other events. I wouldn't consider the tennis fans the typical NY fan as most of the rest of the sports fans of the big sports don't even watch it.



I would agree on that. Tennis as we know is also a sport the snobs, rich or celebrities like to play lol. Being a big hockey fan, I can't say I admire the hockey fans in the US as much, some cities, yes, but many are as you described, pretty rowdy, and they enjoy the fighting aspect much more than in Canada. So it would depend on the sport of course, like wrestling....

However I don't think many other countries if any would of been as classy as the US/NY on that Serana match, even for a tennis match. Except Canada!


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## choc0thrax (Sep 14, 2009)

Tennis sucks. Hockey rules. I start watching tennis when they have stuff like this:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 076208908#


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 14, 2009)

choc0thrax @ Mon Sep 14 said:


> Tennis sucks. Hockey rules. I start watching tennis when they have stuff like this:
> 
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 076208908#



You're sick Choco! I saw this once and since could never watch it again.


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## kid-surf (Sep 14, 2009)

Snobs...

In composing, too. Too many think they're friggn Beethoven, or some shiz...I generally picture 'that' dude in a smoking-jacket and ascot kick'n it before a friggn computer.

Otherwise, surfing is the manliest sport. What other sport do you have to worry about getting eaten...Case closed. (throws mic down like Kanye)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 14, 2009)

What do you have against playing tennis in a smoking jacket, kid? It's very civilized.


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## kid-surf (Sep 14, 2009)

It's the ascot that bugs me. Why not a turtleneck dickie? That way you're dapper but comfortable. Talk about class...

I mean, I wear g-string dickies all the time. It only "looks" like I have a whale-tail.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 14, 2009)

Why are you so obsessed with the dickie?


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## NYC Composer (Sep 15, 2009)

McEnroe was a very good tennis player, and an overall dickwad. His behavior wasn't cute, it was bizarre. I used to be into tennis back then, the Borg/Mc Enroe matches blah blah.

I think when you watch a boyish white male dickhead act like a dickhead and find it endearing somehow, and then you watch a sorta butch tough black woman dickhead act like a dickhead and you're distressed by the behavior, you need to check yourself as to sexism and racism. Feel me?

'course, I'm just a classy New Yorker. Unlike those clowns from Bahston.

and I'm not accusing anyone of anything here. I'm stating an opinion. I could be wrong. Unlikely, but possible. It could happen. Maybe.


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 15, 2009)

We each have the right to our opinions, don't we?

And don't take it personally the classy NYers thing.


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## Craig Sharmat (Sep 15, 2009)

The reality which the announcers missed is as follows.

There was no angle shown by camera angles to know if what the line judge saw was true but most likely it was. Serena and a few other pro players have a bad habit of lifting their lead toe before they serve (Becker had this issue too). Even though she has the hardest serve in woman's tennis when you do not anchor your lead foot your serve and motion can go off especially in nervous times. She most likely foot faulted and a rule is a rule. When playing matches it is unfair if your opponent gets to step in closer to the court. It is hard enough to return serve as it is.


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## Ashermusic (Sep 15, 2009)

NYC Composer @ Tue Sep 15 said:


> McEnroe was a very good tennis player, and an overall dickwad. His behavior wasn't cute, it was bizarre. I used to be into tennis back then, the Borg/Mc Enroe matches blah blah.
> 
> I think when you watch a boyish white male dickhead act like a dickhead and find it endearing somehow, and then you watch a sorta butch tough black woman dickhead act like a dickhead and you're distressed by the behavior, you need to check yourself as to sexism and racism. Feel me?
> 
> ...



It wasn't cute when McEnroe did it and it isn't cute when Ms. Williams does it. It is wrong for them to abuse the linesman, whether he/she is wrong or not. They do not tolerate this in basketball and they should not in tennis.

And we do not say Bahston, we say Bawston. We do however, quite correctly, pahk ar cah in Hahvahd yahd.


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## kid-surf (Sep 15, 2009)

I'm not down with "rules are rules"...

We human kind bend rules all the time - with the goal towards getting what we want. In the case of sports, basketball in particular, the officials are MUCH more forgiving during the playoffs, especially at the end of a game. As what we want is to be entertained, not nit picked, even if that means overlooking the fact of the matter.

I believe Serena's outburst will aid in getting some cameras on the service line. It's like, had it been conclusive she wouldn't have had an outburst, simple as that. It's not as if humans get every call right. Clearly they didn't. And...nobody can argue against truth. If a "rule is a rule" let's at least deal with conclusive evidence to support it, is all.

Otherwise, Serena paid the consequences as prescribed. I see no issue beyond that. Again, one can't INVENT penalties after the fact. That's like a studio changing your deal after you've done the work. Sorry, too late. Add that language to the NEXT deal. In other words, Mary Carillo can F' herself. 

Then again, I feel as though there are other societal factors at play in the gripe folks have over Serena's actions. Namely, what she earns. Possibly the color of her skin is a contributor in some subconscious way, I can't totally rule that out. 


_WESSSIIIDE_


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## kid-surf (Sep 15, 2009)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Sep 14 said:


> Why are you so obsessed with the dickie?



I like the way the dickie hangs...Is that so wrong?


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## Ashermusic (Sep 15, 2009)

kid-surf @ Tue Sep 15 said:


> Then again, I feel as though there are other societal factors at play in the gripe folks have over Serena's actions. Namely, what she earns. Possibly the color of her skin is a contributor in some subconscious way, I can't totally rule that out.
> 
> 
> _WESSSIIIDE_



That is a crock. Bad behavior is bad behavior no matter what the skin color or earnings are and should be called so.


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## Craig Sharmat (Sep 15, 2009)

kid-surf @ Tue Sep 15 said:


> I'm not down with "rules are rules"...
> 
> We human kind bend rules all the time - with the goal towards getting what we want. In the case of sports, basketball in particular, the officials are MUCH more forgiving during the playoffs, especially at the end of a game. As what we want is to be entertained, not nit picked, even if that means overlooking the fact of the matter.
> 
> ...



There are certain constants in sports rulings.
If a BB player at the end of the game makes a spectacular dunk but caught the ball with his foot on the baseline the ref is going to call it. 
If a football player catches a pass and his foot is on the sideline he is going to be called out of bounds.

These are not open to interpretation like fouls and penalties are. Serena most likely foot faulted and a judge cannot decide to stay mum and let the match be determined because that is the way she feels it should be. Her job is to call it as she sees it. As I mentioned above Serena rocks her front foot before serving making her more susceptible to foot faults. This was either addressed or not addressed in her practice sessions but either way she comes to the table with that and has to play to the same rules as all other players.


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## kid-surf (Sep 15, 2009)

Point taken Craig...

But it speaks to the need for cameras at the service line. There's cameras for everything else...probably cameras in their showers. Me, I just don't like leaving things up to human error/judgment, for the reasons I stated before - they get/got many calls wrong. Thus I can't assume she foot faulted. Either she did or she didn't.  I'd like to know conclusively.


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 15, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Tue Sep 15 said:


> kid-surf @ Tue Sep 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Then again, I feel as though there are other societal factors at play in the gripe folks have over Serena's actions. Namely, what she earns. Possibly the color of her skin is a contributor in some subconscious way, I can't totally rule that out.
> ...



Agree. 

People have been cheering the Williams sisters from day 1, and from all races and genders, Serena and Venus have certainly been well rewarded. Now that one of the sisters steps out of line, way out of line, she has to pay the price and apologize, it's as simple as that. 

The fans clearly reacted to Serena's actions, until that point they were behind her all the way. Bringing the race card into this is so ridiculous. People would of reacted the exact same way whether she was hispanic, white or Japanese. There is not the slightest evidence of racism here so let's relax a bit with that. I would love to see the Williams sister be less arrogant, for me it is the ONLY reason why I don't like them. If one can't be comfortable saying he dislike a black player without fearing he'll be called a racist then there is a serious problem somewhere else.


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 15, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Tue Sep 15 said:


> To her credit, she has made what seems to be a very sincere apology, far more believable than Joe Wilson's.



Ehhh yeahhh, it is a nice apology, but it was posted on her website which was likely a statement one of her advisors wrote for her. It would of looked much more sincere if it came directly from her during the press conference. It's better than nothing, okay, but I'd still like to hear it from her at some point and see if she means it.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 15, 2009)

deleted


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## NYC Composer (Sep 15, 2009)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Sep 15 said:


> > Feel me?
> 
> 
> 
> Not in the least. I explained my opinion above.



Ohmigod, Nick- I forgot to genuflect!! :wink: 

Then again, as one of the Chosen-we really don't do that.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 15, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Tue Sep 15 said:


> NYC Composer @ Tue Sep 15 said:
> 
> 
> > McEnroe was a very good tennis player, and an overall dickwad. His behavior wasn't cute, it was bizarre. I used to be into tennis back then, the Borg/Mc Enroe matches blah blah.
> ...



The refs take/took plenty of crap from Kobe/Shaq/MJ/Bird etc etc etc. Bigger the star, more crap absorbed-but that's another matter.


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 15, 2009)

what time is it?


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## NYC Composer (Sep 15, 2009)

Btw, OT- I'd rather be disagreed with by you smart fellas than be agreed with by sycophants and fools. It's sort of refreshing.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Sep 15, 2009)

Guy Bacos @ 15/9/2009 said:


> I love the Buins and the Bawston Gawdon.



NO ONE says/pronounces 'Buins', believe me.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Sep 15, 2009)

kid-surf @ 14/9/2009 said:


> It has always amazed me to hear "artists" trumpeting the value in restraint. I'm gonna have to "pass" on that POV.
> 
> Class? I don't need no class, I'd rather write about those who profess to posess it, they're always the model of contradiction. Ironically, one is paid "large sums of money" to do just that.



Great post, Kid! I'm 1000% behind you on this.


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 15, 2009)

Thanx!


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## NYC Composer (Sep 15, 2009)

I would certainly not want to cause you any harm , Guy-I deleted it. I suggest you delete yours if you fear Google reprisals. Best to ya.


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 15, 2009)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Sep 15 said:


> Guy Bacos @ 15/9/2009 said:
> 
> 
> > I love the Buins and the Bawston Gawdon.
> ...



That's a typo actually.


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 15, 2009)

NYC Composer, lol you could of left out the part saying I'm a good person.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 15, 2009)

You're keeping this going, Guy? Hmmm. Okay.

So, you're not a good person?


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## NYC Composer (Sep 15, 2009)

Ohhhhhh-you mean I could have left it IN. Hahaha!


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 15, 2009)

Oh God, yes I meant IN. Now I'm getting confused!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 15, 2009)

> Ohmigod, Nick- I forgot to genuflect!!
> 
> Then again, as one of the Chosen-we really don't do that.



Stop davening please - it's quite obvious from these excessive protestations that you're projecting your own racism onto everyone else.

Feel me?


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## NYC Composer (Sep 16, 2009)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Sep 16 said:


> > Ohmigod, Nick- I forgot to genuflect!!
> >
> > Then again, as one of the Chosen-we really don't do that.
> 
> ...




Ummm...are you serious? Must I now go into a lengthy dissertation regarding subtle racism in sports, employment,'driving while black', etc etc? ? Are you playing the 'racism back atcha' card??? ::gasp::

( btw, you didn't quote my wink. I think that was purposeful. And that bit about davening- making fun of my religious beliefs, are ya? Racist! )

Oh wait- damn. I forgot. America elected a person of color to the Presidency, so racism is over. Sorry.


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## Ashermusic (Sep 16, 2009)

This is not directed at you Larry, but since you raised the issue:

Someone who denies that racism still exists in America is a fool. Someone who sees race as a factor in every legitimate criticism of any black person is an even bigger fool.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 16, 2009)

If it's not directed at me, then you probably realize I don't see racism in every 'legitimate criticism of a black person'. and am no one's fool. That having been said, racism, overt and subtle, have been studies of mine for almost 50 years,and I'd be delighted to share my experiences and insights off-forum if you're ever interested.

Did you actually read through to get my point? A man who shall remain unnamed(s) finds Serena's behavior deplorable, but didn't find McEnroe's quite as abhorrent. I set up the scenario and I simply asked why.

Do you agree that it's at least possible that the reason for his opinion could be racism in a subtle form( and like most subtle racism, wholly unintended and unrecognized)? 

I deplored her behavior as well. Didn't think Kanye was too cool either this week. Sure, African Americans do lots of bad shit-just like us other chickens. That doesn't preclude the possibility of subtle societal racism.

Hey, speaking of which, I wonder what percentage of Tea Party attendees are black. Or for that matter, Jewish. I need to do some field surveys.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 16, 2009)

> Ummm...are you serious?



Not in the least.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 16, 2009)

> Hey, speaking of which, I wonder what percentage of Tea Party attendees are black. Or for that matter, Jewish. I need to do some field surveys.



And what percentage of them have an IQ over 80 and more than three teeth?


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## kid-surf (Sep 16, 2009)

Nick, I deeply resent you speaking about George Washington in that manor!!!


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## kid-surf (Sep 16, 2009)

Ned -- o-[][]-o


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 16, 2009)

By the way, I was only half kidding about the IQ and number of teeth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUPMjC9m ... dded#t=549


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 16, 2009)

Sorry kid. I'll move into a different manor right away.


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## kid-surf (Sep 16, 2009)

Well...I'd better like the manner of manor you choose.


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## kid-surf (Sep 16, 2009)

Jay - you don't fool me...I can see the white sheets from here. You using Downy? Mmmm, fresh! No wait, Snuggle? Yes, Snuggle!

My comments have to do with a societal subconscious (subtle as I believe it to be - meaning: I would tell you that I can count the incidents of racism I've faced on one hand. The most prominent taking place in South Africa. Others, fairly innocuous. Half of which by black people - remember, I'm biracial. Yet, there are many acts I do not PERCEIVE. Acts in which the 'actor' does not PERCEIVE. Which is the point). In fact, I believe you're taking the comment at face value and therefore giving it more weight, possibly, than it deserves. 

My comment was simply that I cannot "rule it out". Meaning: entirely and on the deepest levels of psyche. It may or may not play a factor. We're not going to decipher that here. Nor would I place blame on an individual for societal conditions.

Though, anyone who possesses enough self-awareness to know ALL that swirls within their subconscious should immediately do one of two things. 1) Collect their Nobel Prize. 2) Become a screenwriter to then earn millions per script byway of unlocking the mysteries deep w/in our complex brains. Or both...

NYC's question has merit (to social scientists), but no, probably not to composers chitchatting about a tennis player. Like I said, it's a whole other thread which I probably don't have time to sufficiently get in to.

Otherwise...Can't say I've spotted a racist in this thread...


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## NYC Composer (Sep 16, 2009)

_Everyone's _a 'racist'. It's a fact of life. We make certain determinations and subtle distinctions, and it affects our behaviors.Some version of xenophobia lurks within all of us.

Obviously, not everyone is an _over_t racist, and I certainly never suggested in any way that the OP was. Having said that, enough already! Or...not.....


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 16, 2009)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Sep 16 said:


> By the way, I was only half kidding about the IQ and number of teeth.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUPMjC9m ... dded#t=549



Holy cow! These protestors look deranged! Please tell me this is not the USA!

I must admit the guy with the cross gave me a chuckle.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 16, 2009)

At the beginning of the video, there were some people chanting 'Free *Dumb*! Free *Dumb*!'

Sheesh. I didn't even realize dumb was enslaved.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 17, 2009)

The guy with the cross was very funny! "I was just passing by - I didn't know there was a demonstration."


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 17, 2009)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Sep 17 said:


> The guy with the cross was very funny! "I was just passing by - I didn't know there was a demonstration."



As they say "Only in America"


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 17, 2009)

Thank goodness.


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## Craig Sharmat (Sep 18, 2009)

I don't have a top 5 but I will name the players whose games i find intriguing. 

in no particular order.

Agassi-he took the ball earlier than anyone else and was able to create angles.
Hingus-not a power player but used the court well-really understands the game
Federer-the whole package
McEnroe-dislike his behavior but the best hands at the net
Brad Gilbert-Served 10 mph (ok maybe 20) but still achieved top 10 status. basically made the most of his talent.
Arthur Ashe-great ambassador for the game and brilliant player. His dismantling of a young Conners at Wimbeldon in 1975 was one of the best tactical matches in the history of the game.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 18, 2009)

I always found Guillermo Villas exciting to watch. And that French guy...I can't think of his name. He played in the late '70s and was incredibly athletic. Light-skinned black guy, gap between his front teeth, wasn't around very long...it'll come to me...

As far as making the most of given talent, I'd have to say Henri Leconte and Todd Martin win that category.


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 18, 2009)

Yannick Noah? Although he was more in the 80s


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## kid-surf (Sep 18, 2009)

"Federer-the whole package"

Agreed. But...I don't know what it is with him. He strikes me as portraying a tremendous false modesty. Though he's a total technician. Just, I don't buy the modesty, I find him to be smug.


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 18, 2009)

I like Federer's attitude, I find him to be a class act, on and off the court, also he's not only the player with the best coordination but the smartest one as well, which I think is 50% of his success. A pure joy to watch!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 18, 2009)

Yanick Noah. I remembered it before I read your post.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 18, 2009)

The shot Federer made through his legs- did you see it? Awesome.

I think he's not the most comfortable public person I've ever seen. I dunno if he's modest or not modest, I think he's mostly uncomfortable.


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 18, 2009)

Since Nick mentioned Noah, I remember he did a shot like that in the french open during the 80s and also got the point. Anybody remember?


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## john rodriguez (Sep 18, 2009)

I worked on a documentary a few years ago with a director who is an absolute tennis fanatic. He's met, watched, shot or interviewed a ton of the heavy hitters over the years and he was telling me that he had never seen anyone that compared to Federer. It's a shame he's got the charisma of your average CPA.


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 18, 2009)

john rodriguez @ Fri Sep 18 said:


> I worked on a documentary a few years ago with a director who is an absolute tennis fanatic. He's met, watched, shot or interviewed a ton of the heavy hitters over the years and he was telling me that he had never seen anyone that compared to Federer.



Kind what all tennis fan say, no?  I sure do.


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 18, 2009)

Wow! When I posted this thread I was expecting 3 or 4 replies at most, not over 100!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 19, 2009)

"Since Nick mentioned Noah, I remember he did a shot like that in the french open during the 80s and also got the point. Anybody remember?"

I do! And I remember him commenting on how dangerous it was afterwards.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 19, 2009)

> Wow! When I posted this thread I was expecting 3 or 4 replies at most, not over 100!



Well, I play tennis at least three times a week, so you got my attention.


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