# 8dio Solo Violin



## Diffusor (Oct 9, 2011)

I am surprised no one has talked about the upcoming 8dio solo violin on this forum yet.

http://soundcloud.com/8dawn/sets/solo-violin-1


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 9, 2011)

There was a tangent about it on this thread - http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23169 - but it definitely deserves its own space for discussion, as I'd imagine there will be a lot.

It sounds wonderful. The caveat - and its a big one - is that it's phrase-based. As I said on the other thread, I'm not above using phrases, but they tend to be drops of colour, often for unusual instruments. The violin is such a core instrument, I don't really want to be thinking about phrases when composing for violin, so this one probably isn't for me.

More news on the Spitfire small strings this week though, which will probably suit me better.


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## Daryl (Oct 9, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Sun Oct 09 said:


> The caveat - and its a big one - is that it's phrase-based.


That would explain the wrong note then.

D


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Oct 9, 2011)

phrase-based? not for me

i'm ain't no one-button-composer :/


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## Diffusor (Oct 9, 2011)

oooh that would be unfortunate if it was phrase based. But those phrase based legatos in their choir library are actually pretty cool.


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## devastat (Oct 9, 2011)

I think this has both, phrases and multisamples.


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## Folmann (Oct 9, 2011)

8DIO Solo Violin is indeed a massive collection of deep-sampled phrases & multi-samples. I don't think they are meant to substitute existing libraries, but they are meant to augment them. If you listen to my quick tests (see cloud below) - you may notice a high degree of complexity that is impossible to do with existing technologies, including sample modelling.

The complexity relates to the constant, smooth variation in dynamics, instant changes in speed of legato, the expressive nature of blending legato and vibrato - and a million other things. 

The reality is that solo violin (along with certain other instruments like) is incredibly responsive and delicate - even if somebody actually did multi-sample the thousands of articulations - you would still need to know how to reassemble them to create anything remotely close to the real deal. So unless you really play the violin well - you would never be able to replicate a performance like the one below. The saddest part is that my quick tests are very simple - imagine we upped the degree of complexity...

I am not asking anybody here to agree with me. I am just asking someone to prove me wrong - and if you think anything is possible ... just go on top of a skyscraper and take a leap of faith ... We could also just start with somebody showing me a decent multi-sampled strumming guitar ... should be pretty simple, right?

I worked for over 4 months with a solo violinist on this library. I recorded him in slow motion (200 frames pr. second) to investigate what actually goes on and to learn about the live blending of techniques.

[flash width=300 height=150 loop=false]http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Fplaylists%2F1177086[/flash]

o/~


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## ysnyvz (Oct 9, 2011)

Folmann @ Sun Oct 09 said:


> We could also just start with somebody showing me a decent multi-sampled strumming guitar ... should be pretty simple, right?



I think Ilya Efimov filled that gap


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## Ed (Oct 9, 2011)

ysnyvz @ Sun Oct 09 said:


> Folmann @ Sun Oct 09 said:
> 
> 
> > We could also just start with somebody showing me a decent multi-sampled strumming guitar ... should be pretty simple, right?
> ...



Judging from the demos Pettinhouse is more convincing to me, Efimov sounds quite wooden in the strumming department. I think Orange Tree has a good one....

Also... http://soundcloud.com/blaketothefuture/ ... cal-island

Orange Tree Ukulele! Sounds great to me!


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## Folmann (Oct 9, 2011)

Agree. Pettinghouse and Efimov are probably amongst the two most convincing developers of guitar based instruments, especially in terms of solo notes, however I haven't heard anything close to realistic in terms of strumming. 

_-) 

But glad if a couple of you feel the realism - gives less competition to composers & clients that can hear the difference (same notion goes for solo violin too)

o-[][]-o 

- T


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 9, 2011)

Well, it's an age old debate here, isn't it? What is composing? Of course, if well recorded and planned, joining up some impeccable phrases will always sound better than using multisamples. But call me old fashioned, but as a composer I wanna compose the notes... and in an ideal world these notes get ultimately replaced by real players. This won't happen on a phrase-based library.

Others have mentioned developers that have been making tremendous steps forward in terms of the playability of stringed instrument samples, which is true. I've little doubt there's a long way still to go of course - there are still really basic things I can play on a guitar (as a pretty bad player) that even the best VI is nowhere near touching. Yet there have been times where I've used a guitar VI in preference to my own playing, for certain kinds of parts it has advantages (over my own playing, anyway!) The thing is - any stringed instrument VI will be a looooong way from covering all a great player and instrument can achieve. But I think its realistic with today's technology to expect that there's a level of playing and a subset of parts that a virtual violin could pull off pretty well - and those are notes I wanna write, not have imposed on me, and notes I can then potentially print off for a real person. I get that 8dio's upcoming library has multisamples too (perhaps there should be a version without phrases at all?) but what I'm looking for is a VI that can push what multisamples can achieve further than before in terms of sound and playability. If it has true legato and portamento it's a basic start, playable vibrato variations a step forward, a mode where it goes into a faster wildly expressive style a real dream. Incidentally, check out Mark Belbin's staggering new Glide Dobro VI - what he's achieved using multisamples and seamless bottleneck slides with controllable vibrato is breathtaking. 

We're discussing strings - how much more is this true of the human voice. It's absurd to think a virtual singer or choir could ever match the range of the real thing. It's beyond laughable. But you know what? Requiem and Liberis are nonetheless magical wonders. Now of course in sense these go down the phrase route, certainly in terms of "lyrics" with a choice of sung syllables. But crucially I get to chose the notes. I'd far rather have this essentially multisampled approach than Zero-G's Vocal Foundry (ok, not exactly like-for-like here) where I can cut and paste complete phrases.


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## Folmann (Oct 9, 2011)

We are discussing quality and I think it's awesome you keep the dream alive. My only promise is you won't be able to do the simple things I did above with traditional multi-samples. It is compositional boredom to debate these things without examples.

Please remember I am a very smart person.

: )))))

- T


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 10, 2011)

Folmann @ Mon Oct 10 said:


> Please remember I am a very smart person.
> 
> : )))))



That's beyond doubt! Curious to see what tricks you've come up with...


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## ysnyvz (Oct 10, 2011)

i guess something like this for kontakt with multi-mic positions and real legato would be enough realistic for most of us. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m00W14KqqOo


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 10, 2011)

ysnyvz @ Mon Oct 10 said:


> i guess something like this for kontakt with multi-mic positions and real legato would be enough realistic for most of us.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m00W14KqqOo



Yeah. Not wild about the tone and would desperately want to avoid the myraid of keyswitches, but otherwise agree. The harsh performance run near the end sounds particularly impressive.


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## TheUnfinished (Oct 10, 2011)

The solo violin in VSL is good, although obviously there's some expenses in getting the full set with all the different articulations. It remains the best one I've heard, for now.

I'm intrigued to see how Troels' solo violin works with regard to variation. Tempo, key, etc. Phrase/performance libraries live and die by how flexible they are. Having said that, we've all heard many tv, film and games soundtracks where we've recognised an ethnic instrument phrase, so is there a problem applying it to more traditional orchestral isntruments?

It sounds bloody good anyway. And that's an excellent starting position!


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## devastat (Oct 10, 2011)

Yeah, can't wait for the 8dio solo violin. In the meanwhile I keep using this for the purpose http://soundcloud.com/sampleconstruct/v ... s-demo-sb/


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## Christian Marcussen (Oct 10, 2011)

If nothing else, the recording quality and sound are (as always) top notch.


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## jamwerks (Oct 10, 2011)

Sounds great 8dio. Anxious to hear the final product !

Interesting to listen to the Bacos VSL thing again. I love the extensive articulations available with VSL, but not as impressed with the quality of the sound. Is it the room (VSL Silent stage), the mics, the mic placement? Don't know.... >8o


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## ysnyvz (Oct 10, 2011)

it's about mic placements 
in these days developers record with 2,3 or 4 mic positions and map the samples to one patch with volume level of each mic and load/unload function
that's why people love sound of cinebrass,albion etc.,even they have just a few articulations


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## Diffusor (Oct 10, 2011)

ysnyvz @ Mon Oct 10 said:


> it's about mic placements
> in these days developers record with 2,3 or 4 mic positions and map the samples to one patch with volume level of each mic and load/unload function
> that's why people love sound of cinebrass,albion etc.,even they have just a few articulations




If I had to choose I would choose performance and articulations over multiple mics. You can make the Silent Stage violin to sound how you want using convolution and signal processing.


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## Hannes_F (Oct 10, 2011)

At last that 8dio demos finally sound like a violin and not like a caricature of one.


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## P.T. (Oct 10, 2011)

I don't care about realism enough to use someone elses composition and calling it mine.

This trend towards using bits of other peoples compositions is troubling.

Once it becomes pervasive enough I suppose I will give up music. Both the making of it as well as the listening to it.


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## jamwerks (Oct 10, 2011)

Diffusor @ Mon Oct 10 said:


> You can make the Silent Stage violin to sound how you want using convolution and signal processing.



What kind of signal processing are you referring to?


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## Diffusor (Oct 10, 2011)

jamwerks @ Mon Oct 10 said:


> Diffusor @ Mon Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > You can make the Silent Stage violin to sound how you want using convolution and signal processing.
> ...



eq, compression, reverb, tape emus etc.


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 10, 2011)

P.T. @ Mon Oct 10 said:


> I don't care about realism enough to use someone elses composition and calling it mine.
> 
> This trend towards using bits of other peoples compositions is troubling.
> 
> Once it becomes pervasive enough I suppose I will give up music. Both the making of it as well as the listening to it.



You wrote: "I don't care about realism enough to use someone elses composition and calling it mine."

Love it and largely agree, it could be in my signature

That said, although I don't use much of it except runs myself, in between using mostly pre-recorded and pre-composed stuff and using none is kind of a wide swath. 

_Personally_, I would not use this kind of library but there clearly is a demand for it with the crowd that prioritizes "as real as possible".


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## EwigWanderer (Oct 10, 2011)

I don't see any reason to go against these kind of libraries. Sometimes they are good to have and can save a lot of time for someone like me who has to work full time in a "boring" day job and write music at night (and have gastric ulcer 8) )

Many occasions I use ready made loops from stormdrum etc to get something going on to rhythms and after completing the cue I'll delete the ready-made loop and play it myself from the start (if I have time on deadline..)


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## Colin O'Malley (Oct 10, 2011)

Troels mentioned he did phrases AND multi-samples. I think you have to do both.....but I'm not very smart....... 

Colin


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 10, 2011)

Colin O'Malley @ Mon Oct 10 said:


> Troels mentioned he did phrases AND multi-samples. I think you have to do both.....but I'm not very smart.......
> 
> Colin



Are you kidding? You are, as we say in Boston, wicked smaht.


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## Pedro Camacho (Oct 10, 2011)

ysnyvz @ Sun Oct 09 said:


> Folmann @ Sun Oct 09 said:
> 
> 
> > We could also just start with somebody showing me a decent multi-sampled strumming guitar ... should be pretty simple, right?
> ...



Yep!


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## ozmorphasis (Oct 10, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Oct 10 said:


> _Personally_, I would not use this kind of library but there clearly is a demand for it with the crowd that prioritizes "as real as possible".



In addition to "sounding as real as possible," there are also project deadlines combined with the need to satisfy clients who want maximum emotional impact for the largest amount of people (read: the masses...in other words TV/pop-culture/etc) and for the smallest cost.

In line with that, how about all of the films/tv scores with a quasi-middle eastern singer wailing up high over a pad after a brief duduk intro? All of the elements sound sonically great, but I have a hard time hearing a composer's voice in it...but that's the point!

Sounding great while not standing out is actually an advantage in a lot of mainstream circles. Same goes for storyline, lighting, acting, etc.

Who am I to judge the professional and creative steps that a composer takes in order to feed his/her family if they work in that arena?

While I love some dj's, and am blown away by what can be crafted by great remix artists, my first love as a composer is to assemble the sounds as I hear them in my head, not after hearing short recordings. Take the latter to its extremes, and you have a music supervisor...creating an emotional flow for a film by arranging the order of existing songs. Yes, that is very extreme, and hardly what any of these libraries are putting forth, but it is to say that all are valid approaches along a huge spectrum. What turns you on and what feeds your family I suppose are the relevant questions.

O


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## zacnelson (Oct 10, 2011)

I just think this demo sounds incredible and until we have an opportunity to work with this new library ourselves we can't assume that it will limit the `composer's voice'. I've never heard anything so good


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## NYC Composer (Oct 10, 2011)

The 8Dio solo violin is what it is. I think comments in this thread should probably be limited to what one thinks of it, not what one thinks of phrases vs. multisamples, politically or compositionally. As a major offender who tends to comment on O.T. matters, I think I'm in a perfect position to make that statement.


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## synthetic (Oct 10, 2011)

Sounds great, I can't wait to hear more. I think you need phrases for certain idiomatic instruments like this, duduk halftone stuff, saxophone bends, etc. 

And I disagree that it makes you less of a composer. You wouldn't write "E minor ad lib" on a chart? You won't use a drum or conga loop? 

But enough of this distracting argument, let's judge the instrument on it's merits.


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## ysnyvz (Oct 10, 2011)

Diffusor @ Mon Oct 10 said:


> If I had to choose I would choose performance and articulations over multiple mics. You can make the Silent Stage violin to sound how you want using convolution and signal processing.



i wish it could work but it doesn't.
for example when you play an acoustic instrument (violin,guitar,piano etc.) even in a small room of your home,your ears will hear echo or reflection of room.it's nature of music,sound,any noise.
but complete dry samples (VSL,LASS etc.) sounds like recorded out of earth,space,a place without air and convolutions can't emulate natural sound.
that's why you need to put your mic with a distance from instrument to capture sound of place


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 10, 2011)

I don't think we can avoid discussing the phrase issue - sure it is what it is, but that's what we're discussing! Also, since this isn't a commercial announcement thread, I think it's fair to widen out on relevant issues. For example:



ozmorphasis @ Mon Oct 10 said:


> In line with that, how about all of the films/tv scores with a quasi-middle eastern singer wailing up high over a pad after a brief duduk intro? All of the elements sound sonically great, but I have a hard time hearing a composer's voice in it...but that's the point!



I'm such a hypocrite. [hangs head and mumbles softly] I've done this - the middle eastern wail and the duduk phrase. And a percussion loop, dammit. Yet I baulk at the violin. Why? [scrambles around in desperate self-justification] um.... well, it's different because.... um... er....

OK, let's take the wail and the duduk. If I was doing a serious piece with those elements for a serious project, I'd hope I'd be avoiding the cliches and phrases. In my case it's been a drop of colour here and there, and there (ahem) was that school production I helped out! I certainly don't think I "composed" something amazing there, but it solved a problem a few times.

I guess that's what phrases can do - solve problems, not help you compose. With 8dio violin, of course you'll be able to do both, and we all wait to see how clever clever Troels has implemented the phrases. But because the violin is one of the core instruments where I really do my composing, I'm viewing this product differently to a few drops of colour in Symphobia. Basically, it exposes one of my many huge weaknesses as a composer, in that I'm very Western.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 10, 2011)

Guy-if that's the way you feel, and it's certainly valid, isn't it the sort of thing where you say "It's a violin phrase library-it sounds great, but I've decided don't want to use a phrase-based violin library"- and Bob's yer uncle?


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 10, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Tue Oct 11 said:


> Guy-if that's the way you feel, and it's certainly valid, isn't it the sort of thing where you say "It's a violin phrase library-it sounds great, but I've decided don't want to use a phrase-based violin library"- and Bob's yer uncle?



Yeah probably. Though there are grey areas - ornaments are technically phrases, but if I could play them in a natural way without trawling through folders of options, I wouldn't be that precious about it.


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## shakuman (Oct 12, 2011)

Wow! I can't believe what I am hearing o/~ Excellent work Troel, any idea about the release date ? o[]) 

Shakuman


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## david robinson (Oct 12, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Oct 10 said:


> P.T. @ Mon Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't care about realism enough to use someone elses composition and calling it mine.
> ...



jay,
as soon as sampling tech catches up with human mind, we'll jump on board.
until then, this stuff is all we got.
j.


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## david robinson (Oct 12, 2011)

Folmann.
thank you for creating these libs.
been around for 40yrs here, and your vox libs fill a gap sorely needed.
btw, some your East-West demos, i really like.
best,
j.


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## snowleopard (Oct 12, 2011)

Sounds impressive. But I have to admit I'm pretty happy with the violin from EWQL's Gypsy, and because my style of music, personally don't feel the need to have more/different/better.


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## KingIdiot (Oct 13, 2011)

I think many of you are just resistant to tools that make you work outside of your regular midi mockup process. phrase libraries, especially ones done right offer an amazing amount of realism but force you to think and work differently. you don't have to "just hit a key and be done", there are many ways to manipulate phrases after the fact or work with them. .. and I don't mean just melodyne...

and i also don't mean that as a jab, I think it's just a subconscious truth...same complaint 10 years later. Nothing changes  (except how awesome our tools are... oh wait, no I said that 10 years ago too


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 13, 2011)

KingIdiot @ Thu Oct 13 said:


> I think many of you are just resistant to tools that make you work outside of your regular midi mockup process. phrase libraries, especially ones done right offer an amazing amount of realism but force you to think and work differently. you don't have to "just hit a key and be done", there are many ways to manipulate phrases after the fact or work with them. .. and I don't mean just melodyne...
> 
> and i also don't mean that as a jab, I think it's just a subconscious truth...same complaint 10 years later. Nothing changes  (except how awesome our tools are... oh wait, no I said that 10 years ago too



Weeeeellll... not really. It's a pretty simple concept - if I want to compose a tune that I have in my head, I need to be able to choose the notes! I don't think it suggests Luddite tendencies to have that principle, or that the march of time will render such strange philosophies redundant.

EDIT - actually there's an argument to say that phrases is a retrograde step. 10 years ago you could buy great sounding phrase libraries, but as technology has increased, we've been able to increase the realism of multisamples so they're on a par for realism but of course can be manipulated at will. This isn't mean to knock 8dio's violin btw, which I've little doubt will be as highly refined as the phrase concept can get, but I don't buy the argument that in general "this is the future" at all.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 13, 2011)

I wish the future would hurry up and get here, damnit.


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## Daryl (Oct 13, 2011)

KingIdiot @ Thu Oct 13 said:


> I think many of you are just resistant to tools that make you work outside of your regular midi mockup process. phrase libraries, especially ones done right offer an amazing amount of realism but force you to think and work differently. you don't have to "just hit a key and be done", there are many ways to manipulate phrases after the fact or work with them. .. and I don't mean just melodyne...
> 
> and i also don't mean that as a jab, I think it's just a subconscious truth...same complaint 10 years later. Nothing changes  (except how awesome our tools are... oh wait, no I said that 10 years ago too


Intellectually I agree with you, but emotionally for me the best virtual instrument is the one that can be played. That's why Samplemodeling's offerings are so fantastic. Sure, you have to back and add a few controllers after the fact, but 90% of the performance is just that; a performance.

However, I do understand that people who don't have the same skill set as I do might prefer to work other ways.

D


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## Daryl (Oct 13, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Thu Oct 13 said:


> EDIT - actually there's an argument to say that phrases is a retrograde step. 10 years ago you could buy great sounding phrase libraries, but as technology has increased, we've been able to increase the realism of multisamples so they're on a par for realism but of course can be manipulated at will. This isn't mean to knock 8dio's violin btw, which I've little doubt will be as highly refined as the phrase concept can get, but I don't buy the argument that in general "this is the future" at all.


I agree with that, up to a point. The snag is that for a virtual instrument to sound good (i.e. sound like the acoustic instrument that was sampled in the first place) there are many, many subtleties that need to happen in the performance. Unfortunately that means that users have to understand a lot about how that instrument is played in the first place. I think you'll find that many composers either don't have time, or are just too lazy (or both), and this will always made the simple(r) solution more popular.

D


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 13, 2011)

Daryl @ Thu Oct 13 said:


> I agree with that, up to a point. The snag is that for a virtual instrument to sound good (i.e. sound like the acoustic instrument that was sampled in the first place) there are many, many subtleties that need to happen in the performance. Unfortunately that means that users have to understand a lot about how that instrument is played in the first place. I think you'll find that many composers either don't have time, or are just too lazy (or both), and this will always made the simple(r) solution more popular.



Sure. But those details are where we'll see continual improvements, smart scripting that can inject the humanity into the lifeless samples. Devs like Orange Tree and Spectrasonics seem to be working towards a model where a virtual instrument is a THING - a playable thing that is responsive like a real instrument. Of course its all smoke and mirrors, but it's the end result that counts.

Troels is one of the greatest devs out there, and as a composer I am not worthy to tie his musical shoelaces. I really hope that as the years go on, 8dio will move more into this sort of area of super-advanced VIs and away from the phrases, cos the skills he can bring to the table are immense.


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## Daryl (Oct 13, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Thu Oct 13 said:


> Sure. But those details are where we'll see continual improvements, smart scripting that can inject the humanity into the lifeless samples. Devs like Orange Tree and Spectrasonics seem to be working towards a model where a virtual instrument is a THING - a playable thing that is responsive like a real instrument. Of course its all smoke and mirrors, but it's the end result that counts.


I don't believe that automatic scripting is the answer. Whilst it can improve things, there are still a huge number of things that a player will know, that a script can't possibly know, unless there is a look-ahead feature, which would mean playing isn't an option. This is particularly true for string playing, where many things are totally dependent on what has just happened as well as what is going to happen. I still think that for most people those sort of controls will be overkill, and therefore the number of users who would buy a VI like that is limited.

As an aside, I am in the process of recording a string library, and I already have a few features that would be useless to anyone, other than a string player. With a solo instrument this becomes even more complicated.

D


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 13, 2011)

Daryl @ Thu Oct 13 said:


> noiseboyuk @ Thu Oct 13 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't believe that automatic scripting is the answer. Whilst it can improve things, there are still a huge number of things that a player will know, that a script can't possibly know, unless there is a look-ahead feature, which would mean playing isn't an option. This is particularly true for string playing, where many things are totally dependent on what has just happened as well as what is going to happen. I still think that for most people those sort of controls will be overkill, and therefore the number of users who would buy a VI like that is limited.
> ...



The idea of looking ahead keeps popping up from time to time. I think it's the next big leap forward. I know Andrew K said he talked to Steinberg about it years ago - they're the obvious company to push this forward. I know there will be people here who don't like it, but it opens up the possibility of playing a part in, then afterwards giving the virtual player "direction". For a solo violin, you could even use non-musical terms like "with passion", which could then be translated to certain types of performances. I don't really have a problem with that, as its just a virtual equivalent of what you might ask a real performer to do. The composition and the manner of performance would stay with the composer, so it's a move away from the press-a-button philosophy, and a lot more musical approach than keyswitches etc.

I appreciate this sort of thing might be a few years away, but I think it's the ultimate way forward. We just need VST4 first...


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## NYC Composer (Oct 13, 2011)

Daryl @ Thu Oct 13 said:


> KingIdiot @ Thu Oct 13 said:
> 
> 
> > I think many of you are just resistant to tools that make you work outside of your regular midi mockup process. phrase libraries, especially ones done right offer an amazing amount of realism but force you to think and work differently. you don't have to "just hit a key and be done", there are many ways to manipulate phrases after the fact or work with them. .. and I don't mean just melodyne...
> ...



I think that good keyboard players who have been practicing emulations and idiomatic playing for a long time want to play an instrument as expressively as possible on the first pass. Not only does this save time, it imparts a performance based on feel. I recently mentioned this to a developer who's come out with an amazing instrument that's unwieldy to use "out of the box". It has plenty of controllers that can be added later, but it's nigh onto impossible to use idiomatically to create a performance without later editing.

The SampleModeling stuff is a good example. With an expression pedal and maybe one hand moved controller, you're 95% there in one pass.

I want to feel like a player rather than a post-audio guy. However, I think phrase-based libraries have their place. I love Silk for that reason-you really can do both with it.


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 13, 2011)

david robinson @ Wed Oct 12 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Mon Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > P.T. @ Mon Oct 10 said:
> ...



I don't disagree. Every one of us has to make choices about how much we are willing to use phrases, loops, pre-baked sections etc. to get libraries and V.I.s to sound more "real." I don't condemn anyone choices but for me the answer is "very little" because I think I can make it sound great against picture largely without them, make my clients happy largely without them, and have more joy composing music largely without them.

But it is a very personal decision.


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## George Caplan (Oct 13, 2011)

ysnyvz @ Mon Oct 10 said:


> Diffusor @ Mon Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > If I had to choose I would choose performance and articulations over multiple mics. You can make the Silent Stage violin to sound how you want using convolution and signal processing.
> ...




i read somewhere that youre meant to record the room not the instruments.


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## Daryl (Oct 13, 2011)

ysnyvz @ Tue Oct 11 said:


> Diffusor @ Mon Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > If I had to choose I would choose performance and articulations over multiple mics. You can make the Silent Stage violin to sound how you want using convolution and signal processing.
> ...


Two common misconceptions to correct:

1) VSL and LASS are not completely dry libraries
2) Neither are recorded solely with close mics

What you mean is that you don;t have the skill to mix without a large room acoustic built in. Fair enough. :wink: 

FWIW the only completely dry library that I know of is from Samplemodeling, and their instruments are a special case, as they are not recorded in a normal studio.

D


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## KingIdiot (Oct 13, 2011)

no really... same shit.. different year.

you CAN pick the notes in a phrase library, you just have to think differently and work differently.

all arguments against this are just wrong.

the idea that you have to know so much about how the instrument is played before you can pick the right note is pretty ridiculous, when you consider the fact that you generally "force" a sample in a multi-sample with legato or a various key switched articulation to work in whatever performance you have in your head.

the main issue is that it isn't the way you work, just like midi mockupping isn't the way pen/paper/Sibelius guys work.

I'm not saying it's better or easier or anything in particular about skillsets being weaker or stronger, I"m saying that it's mindset and workflow that is really the main reason people are resistant. The same shit happened when tons of articulations popped up in libraries a while back, and then again in multiple keyswitches, and then funny enough, people got used to it, and started to resist the automatic choices being made via some scripts.. whatever the issue, if it "takes time" to do something that doesn't work with their flow... people bitch.

I remember when people used to ride the knob on some FX hardware unit to fix pitch in vocal tracks. Somewhere along the lines we've all allowed the industry to make us believe that we have to have things done so quickly that we don't have the time to work harder or differently or out of our comfort zones... Maybe, we've gotten lazy, and want everything done for us. Which is fairly ironic since I'm arguing for a phrase library and people are complaining about how it's "already done for you" 

seriously though same shit different year.

o=? 

and.. off for a few months again 0oD


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## Pzy-Clone (Oct 13, 2011)

KingIdiot @ Thu Oct 13 said:


> no really... same [email protected]#t.. different year.
> 
> you CAN pick the notes in a phrase library, you just have to think differently and work differently.



yeah , but that is extremely sluggish and time-consuming...and defies the purpose of a phrase library as you end up with transition points and xfades anyway, ones that are not even prepared to work that way...so most of us, end up just using the phrase as is, or not at all, i suspect.

But great sound, and wondering about the extent of these multisamples..., would the sound really have been so much worse if it was a traditional single-note based library? 


I am not really a big fan of phrases and such, i find them constricting and clumsy, and multisamples...even with all their flaws, are just a million times more flexible than trying to sculpt a bunch of phrases into position. Unless you write your whole cue around the phrase...of course. 

Nothing to do with any mindset...at all, just how to get the results we want with as little fuzz as possible, perhaps 8Dio has come up with a new and revolutionary way of using phrases here, of course, but using predefined phrases almost never fits my needs, it didn`t 10+ years ago when "loops" were all the rage...and it does not now, so yeah, as you say...same s"&%, different year.

Anyway , i have to go jump out from a skyscraper now.
A really smart person told me to do it.


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## Daryl (Oct 13, 2011)

KingIdiot @ Thu Oct 13 said:


> the idea that you have to know so much about how the instrument is played before you can pick the right note is pretty ridiculous....


Did anyone say that though?

D


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## ozmorphasis (Oct 13, 2011)

Pzy-Clone @ Thu Oct 13 said:


> Unless you write your whole cue around the phrase...of course.



Bingo! You CAN be very creative with phrase tools, but you can be creative with any tool. 

Now, having said that, and in support of your statement quoted above, have another listen to the audio demo (which sounds great), and then go listen to the audio demos for various vocal phrase libraries, and tell me if you don't hear and see a red thread running through all of it.

They are not the same, but there is an uncanny similarity in the sense that the piece is built around the phrases. Now listen to compositions using multisamples....they are all over the map from John Williams-ish to bombastic trailer stuff, to goofy cartoon stuff, etc. 

Again, none of this invalidates the usefulness of phrase libraries, but to just say that it requires a different way of thinking is not the whole picture. It also requires an interest/need for certain musical directions. 

I suppose we are always composing to the samples to various degrees. Phrase libraries by definition move farther in that direction. Nothing wrong with that, but let's not debate the facts. Afterall, multisamples are "phrases" too, just happen to be the smallest building blocks possible.

Here's my dream: A library that has a seamless transition from the smallest building blocks up through more complex phrases, with built-in tools (melodynes, time-stretchers, vibrato inducers/reducers, dynamic control, etc) for customizing along the way.

I know, it's far fetched.

Then again, Troels and folks at Samplemodeling et al are very smart and are obviously not backing down on progress anytime soon.

O


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## germancomponist (Oct 13, 2011)

I think the idea behind this library is great!

Sure, phrases are phrases, pre composed and produced, but there are moments when you exactly need such phrases, to sound best. No secret that you then have to write for them....., but ready produced phrases also can inspire you, like the earlier drum patterns did. Yes, no?


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## Jack Weaver (Oct 13, 2011)

Daryl said:



> I am in the process of recording a string library, and I already have a few features that would be useless to anyone, other than a string player. With a solo instrument this becomes even more complicated.



All arguments aside - I'm intrigued by what you might come up with here. Keep us informed here of your progress... or just PM me and tell me what's going on :D 
There's still lots of room in the market for a good sounding string library.

Do you plan to make it work singularly well with MIR Pro?

Wish you the best on this endeavor. 


.


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 13, 2011)

Pzy-Clone @ Thu Oct 13 said:


> KingIdiot @ Thu Oct 13 said:
> 
> 
> > no really... same [email protected]#t.. different year.
> ...



Absolutely. It's an academic argument really.

The general trend is towards less patches, less keyswitches, more playable - and I'm all for it.

Oh, and yes Daryl - keep us all posted as and when you are able re your library.


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## Folmann (Oct 13, 2011)

Thanks for the feedback gentlemen. It is good to see that logic and rationale prevails in the end. 8Dio Solo Violin is a massive product containing both deep multi-samples and phrase-samples.

It also makes me happy to see the few skeptics are lining up on top of the skyscraper. I appreciate you guys taking the higher road. 

In appreciation I found this motivational article for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equations_ ... lling_body


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 13, 2011)

Folmann @ Thu Oct 13 said:


> Thanks for the feedback gentlemen. It is good to see that logic and rationale prevails in the end. 8Dio Solo Violin is a massive product containing both deep multi-samples and phrase-samples.
> 
> It also makes me happy to see the few skeptics are lining up on top of the skyscraper. I appreciate you guys taking the higher road. I found this motivational article for you:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equations_ ... lling_body



I do like your oblique posts but... huh?!


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## NYC Composer (Oct 13, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Thu Oct 13 said:


> Folmann @ Thu Oct 13 said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the feedback gentlemen. It is good to see that logic and rationale prevails in the end. 8Dio Solo Violin is a massive product containing both deep multi-samples and phrase-samples.
> ...



Translation (referential to a previous post)-those who disagree with a phrase-based library can throw themselves off a tall building (assumably, this was meant to be whimsical.)


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## germancomponist (Oct 13, 2011)

Folmann @ Thu Oct 13 said:


> In appreciation I found this motivational article for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equations_ ... lling_body


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 13, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Thu Oct 13 said:


> Translation (referential to a previous post)-those who disagree with a phrase-based library can throw themselves off a tall building (assumably, this was meant to be whimsical.)



Ah, got ya. Very good.


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## Folmann (Oct 13, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Thu Oct 13 said:


> noiseboyuk @ Thu Oct 13 said:
> 
> 
> > Folmann @ Thu Oct 13 said:
> ...



Hahahaha - love your rough translation, but my point was a little more complex - lemme reiterate the exact context:

"... 8DIO Solo Violin is indeed a massive collection of deep-sampled phrases & multi-samples. I don't think they are meant to substitute existing libraries, but they are meant to augment them. If you listen to my quick tests - you may notice a high degree of complexity that is impossible to do with existing technologies, including sample modelling.

The complexity relates to the constant, smooth variation in dynamics, instant changes in speed of legato, the expressive nature of blending legato and vibrato - and a million other things.

The reality is that solo violin (along with certain other instruments like) is incredibly responsive and delicate - even if somebody actually did multi-sample the thousands of articulations - you would still need to know how to reassemble them to create anything remotely close to the real deal. So unless you really play the violin well - you would never be able to replicate a performance like the one I did. The saddest part is that my quick tests are very simple - imagine we upped the degree of complexity...

I am not asking anybody here to agree with me. I am just asking someone to prove me wrong - and if you think anything is possible ... just go on top of a skyscraper and take a leap of faith ..."

Ps. Feel free to post more VSL Solo String demos. I think they prove my point more then they disprove it.


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 13, 2011)

Folmann @ Thu Oct 13 said:


> NYC Composer @ Thu Oct 13 said:
> 
> 
> > noiseboyuk @ Thu Oct 13 said:
> ...



You are not wrong if the goal is only to "replicate a performance". If the goal is to compose with libraries and software instruments in a way that is true and emotionally satisfying to any given composer's creative vision, you may or may not be.


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 13, 2011)

Folmann @ Thu Oct 13 said:


> Hahahaha - love your rough translation, but my point was a little more complex - lemme reiterate the exact context:
> 
> "... 8DIO Solo Violin is indeed a massive collection of deep-sampled phrases & multi-samples. I don't think they are meant to substitute existing libraries, but they are meant to augment them. If you listen to my quick tests - you may notice a high degree of complexity that is impossible to do with existing technologies, including sample modelling.
> 
> ...



Doh, ok get the reference properly now!

Yes, I'm sorta with Jay on this one, though I'm really intrigued to see what you've done with it. For realism - no doubt your method will win and so no-one will prove you wrong. But... and there's no way round this... I have a tune in my head and I wanna play my notes. Which I realise I can do with the multisamples, but unless there's a lot more we don't know about the non-phrase part of the library, I'll get a better effect with a library with more of its resources devoted to them.

So if I accidentally compose a tune that can also be exactly made up of the phrases and other damn clever trickery, and I record it using A Competitor's Shiny New Library (TM) it won't sound as good as 8dio's Solo Violin. But I can at least print it out and give it to a violinist. And as for my other tunes that can't be assembled out of phrases.... well, the Competitor's Shiny New Library will probably beat the 8dio multisamples if they don't have true legato, portamento etc etc.

I'm guessing though that you wouldn't argue with any of that. That's not the best way to use your library. Work with how it is conceived, and people will be able to create breathtakingly beautiful new tunes with it, I'm sure of it.


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 13, 2011)

Please understand that my view only reflects my personal approach to these tasks, which I am not advocating for anyone else. Troels has done a remarkable job and I am in no way trying to discourage anyone from buying this if it appeals to them.


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## ysnyvz (Oct 13, 2011)

Daryl @ Thu Oct 13 said:


> What you mean is that you don;t have the skill to mix without a large room acoustic built in. Fair enough. :wink:



you really understood this from what i said?
i just said my opinion and your answer is disrespectful
if only i don't have skill then why most of develeopers (projectsam,eastwest,cinesamples,spitfire.. etc.)use different mic positions for their libraries instead of using silent stage,dry samples or whatever?!

ps. i didn't post vsl solo strings video to prove or disprove anything.it was just an example to show what i want


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## NYC Composer (Oct 13, 2011)

Folmann @ Thu Oct 13 said:


> Hahahaha - love your rough translation, but my point was a little more complex - .



As you've already demonstrated so aptly, the machinations of your mind and your incisive mental acuity are far beyond the ability of mere mortals to comprehend. I can only hope to grasp small portions of the complexities you present, and I am humbled and gladdened that I have provided you with a moment of amusement with my poor analysis.


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 13, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Thu Oct 13 said:


> Folmann @ Thu Oct 13 said:
> 
> 
> > Hahahaha - love your rough translation, but my point was a little more complex - .
> ...



I think his daily prayer is, "Oh Lord, grant me humility, but don't do it just yet."


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## Folmann (Oct 13, 2011)

Jay . 

I will tell you what my daily prayer is.

My daily prayer is for you to tell the forum about your exact association to East West?

My daily prayer is for you to start making some actual examples instead of writing all these negative comments. You never post any examples - you just trash talk other developers.

My daily prayer is that people hopefully realize that the many words you write - compensate for the lack of music you should be writing.

Care for confessions too - cause I got a long list of things I would like to debate with you in public?


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 13, 2011)

Folmann @ Thu Oct 13 said:


> 1. Jay .
> 
> I will tell you what my daily prayer is.
> 
> ...



1. How clever you are.

2. Check my signature, it is my EXACT association.

3. Visit my website. I have lots of music there and people can reach whatever conclusions they like.

4. "Conan The Barbarian" DVD will be relaxed soon. I wrote the music for the featurette. A DVD about the life of Laura Ingalls Wilder will be released soon that I scored. 

5. See #1.


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 13, 2011)

BTW, I specifically made no negative comments about your library, other than saying that I personally do not choose to use phrases or loops much. I specifically said you did a remarkable job on it but I guess you missed that.


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## Ed (Oct 13, 2011)

Personally I think these kinds of products arent meant to be used in the same way you are using a multisample. If you want to write a tune with it the same way you would a multisample, you will likely get frustrated, even though its going to have lots of options. Its as I think King was saying, its different tools for different mindsets and ways of working. Now Im sure you can cheat using this and be very uncreative, but that doesnt necessarily have to be the case. I know I'd want this and Spitfires solo strings for different jobs and uses. Edit: of course, this library also contains multisamples I am referring to legato. I think its going to be very interesting.

I like Kings quote:



> I think many of you are just resistant to tools that make you work outside of your regular midi mockup process. phrase libraries, especially ones done right offer an amazing amount of realism but force you to think and work differently. you don't have to "just hit a key and be done", there are many ways to manipulate phrases after the fact or work with them. .. and I don't mean just melodyne...


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## Folmann (Oct 13, 2011)

Conclusion of Jay :

1. So you are working for a developer - trash talking other developers libraries and efforts - even though you actually haven't seen any specs or documentation on the things you are commenting about. Do you remember that I and several other people reminded you this library contains both multi-samples and phrases?

2. You never provide any examples to your comments. You just consistently keep on posting the same comments over and over - like you haven't read or learned a single bit.

3. You once stated that you could make your old Taiko sample library sound great with just EQ/compression. But again ... you failed to provide examples.

4. Sorry. I didn't visit your website - after all why would I listen to your music - when you fail to provide examples here on your own? 

5. You eat spam for dinner?


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## NYC Composer (Oct 13, 2011)

Folmann @ Thu Oct 13 said:


> Conclusion of Jay :
> 
> 1. So you are working for a developer - trash talking other developers libraries and efforts - even though you actually haven't seen any specs or documentation.
> 
> ...



There's no need for this here. Take it to PM's, please.


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## Folmann (Oct 13, 2011)

I apologize and agree Larry and the moderators have been notified. But I am not gonna sit and let an individual like Jay Asser ruin other developers efforts, especially not when he is co-sponsored by another developer. Its about time somebody stands up here.


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 13, 2011)

Folmann @ Thu Oct 13 said:


> Conclusion of Jay :
> 
> 1. So you are working for a developer - trash talking other developers libraries and efforts - even though you actually haven't seen any specs or documentation.
> 
> ...



1. Please point to the post where I trash your libraries or anyone else's. You won't find it. I have however made it clear that I think you are arrogant s and that has nothing to do with EW but everything to do with the way you conduct yourself. You don't see me criticize a guy like Chris Hein or Tari do you?

2. I don't have to. People can go to my website and decide how little or much credibility to assign them. 

3. Yep. I don't have to prove it to anyone. They are free to dismiss it as idle chatter if they choose.

4. Because that is why we have audio on our websites.

5. How clever you are.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 13, 2011)

Folmann @ Thu Oct 13 said:


> I apologize and agree Larry and the moderators have been notified. But I am not gonna sit and let an individual like Jay Asser ruin other developers efforts, especially not when he is co-sponsored by another developer. Its about time somebody stands up here.



In my opinion then, you should address specific comments specifically, at the time they are posted, with some self control, and without adolescent name calling (or name modification).


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## Folmann (Oct 13, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Oct 13 said:


> Folmann @ Thu Oct 13 said:
> 
> 
> > Conclusion of Jay :
> ...



See... same thing... hollow words... no examples... 

However I do find it interesting how you say you don't have to prove anything ... yet you feel the need to keep on posting here. 

Care you explain that paradox? I am excited to hear about it, while you break down and explain about your childhood and all that. 

Trust me... I will forgive you on the other side.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 13, 2011)

Oh, and btw- though I like Jay, I have called him out numerous times, both on the forum and in PM. I'm sure he can quote you chapter and verse. I have done it mildly and specifically.


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 13, 2011)

Folmann @ Thu Oct 13 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu Oct 13 said:
> 
> 
> > Folmann @ Thu Oct 13 said:
> ...



I will let this post speak for itself as it does so more eloquently than I can.

Once agin, terrific library, well suited for those who wish to compose with both samples and phrases. I wish it were developed by a nicer person.


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## Folmann (Oct 13, 2011)

I appreciate the gentle notions Larry - and I try to be reasonably balanced in my responses here. The issue is that Jay is working for another developer and consistently tries to troll product announcements. It is 100% unprofessional, hence my desire to be the same.


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## KingIdiot (Oct 13, 2011)

I came back to say one more thing. I'm just trying to be an advocate for tech and tools here. My history with this whole scene should be proof enough, but let's face it I don't hang out in the playground much anymore.

_-) 

it's not like I've ever put much thought into this stuff at all (slash end sarcasm font)


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## Folmann (Oct 13, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Oct 13 said:


> Folmann @ Thu Oct 13 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Thu Oct 13 said:
> ...



(Repeating)

Same thing... hollow words... no examples...

However I do find it interesting how you say you don't have to prove anything ... yet you feel the need to keep on posting here...

Care you explain that paradox?


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 13, 2011)

Folmann @ Thu Oct 13 said:


> I appreciate the gentle notions Larry - and I try to be reasonably balanced in my responses here. The issue is that Jay is working for another developer and consistently tries to troll product announcements. It is 100% unprofessional, hence my desire to be the same.



I guess I was trolling for EW when I publicly praised libraries by Kirk Hunter, Wavelore, Sonivox, Spectrasonics, Sampletekk, ArtVista, etc?


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## KingIdiot (Oct 13, 2011)

I'm also an asshole, but let's face it, everyone already knows that (slash end uncomfortable so I'm making a joke font) (also known as chandler font)


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## Folmann (Oct 13, 2011)

Idiot and Asshole.

Two negatives gives positive man.


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## Folmann (Oct 13, 2011)

Just to redial what this conversation was actually about ...

[flash width=300 height=200 loop=false]http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Fplaylists%2F1177086[/flash]

Made in 5 minutes with multi- and phrase samples ...


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## NYC Composer (Oct 13, 2011)

Folmann @ Thu Oct 13 said:


> I appreciate the gentle notions Larry - and I try to be reasonably balanced in my responses here. The issue is that Jay is working for another developer and consistently tries to troll product announcements. It is 100% unprofessional, hence my desire to be the same.



Baloney. You let your anger run free at various times. I don't mind your arrogance-I give genius its due, and merely try to let a little air out of the balloon occasionally. However, anyone who doesn't know who Jay works for or what his bias would be either hasn't been here for long, can't read, or both.


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## mpalenik (Oct 13, 2011)

Folmann @ Thu Oct 13 said:


> Just to redial what this conversation was actually about ...
> 
> [flash width=300 height=200 loop=false]http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Fplaylists%2F1177086[/flash]
> 
> Made in 5 minutes with multi- and phrase samples ...



The violin sounds good, but I think people find that unsurprising if you're using phrases. I mean, I can pop in a CD of a violin recording and it will sound just like a real violin, although it's kind of useless from a composition perspective.

The demos sound nice, but I think the issue people have is, if I were to write a violin piece out by hand without any regard for samples, would there be any way to use that library to play it? And if not, how much do I have to compromise my writing when I work with it? The violin is an instrument that people seem to like to compose for, rather than simply using as a background sound in a TV track to set the mood or location, like you might with a short loop from an ethnic library. So, to what extent does this library actually allow you to work as a composer, vs. someone who cobbles together premade phrases?


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## Folmann (Oct 13, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Thu Oct 13 said:


> Folmann @ Thu Oct 13 said:
> 
> 
> > I appreciate the gentle notions Larry - and I try to be reasonably balanced in my responses here. The issue is that Jay is working for another developer and consistently tries to troll product announcements. It is 100% unprofessional, hence my desire to be the same.
> ...



I wouldn't call it anger. I would just call it knowledge vs incompetence.

But let's not quarrel subtle rhetorics.

I am (as you politely state) a genius and with that comes obligation to teach the infidels. Its not my fault the few and select picked the wrong profession. Its merely my humble job to remind them.

Now speaking of arrogance...


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## choc0thrax (Oct 13, 2011)

This suspicious eastwest lurker guy has nothin' but praise for a lib after crapping all over the concept of it. 

I wonder if his opinion extends to all the loop and phrase containing eastwest products?


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## KingIdiot (Oct 13, 2011)

mpalenik @ Thu Oct 13 said:


> Folmann @ Thu Oct 13 said:
> 
> 
> > Just to redial what this conversation was actually about ...
> ...




it's comments like this that make me truly believe people have a misconception of what can be done with phrases, AND as well that have a thought that you'll be workign with maybe 40 or so phrases. Troels said he worked for four months with the player, I think there's a ton of multisamples and some phrases in multiple keys that are going to be very flexible. The thought process behind a usable phrase library is more than jsut recoring some loops and being done with it. Or even basic one shots. The thing is, one has to learn how deep the phrases go, and then retrain your brain to think about how they can all be used in different ways.

you don't write and then hope the phrases can work, you write and MAKE the phrases work. Thats the way a deeply sampled phrase library should be used. You use a combination of the multi's and the phrases to complete what you've written. It doesn't mean it will always be perfect, but the same goes for multisamples with deep articulation sampling. Soem shit works for your piece, some doesn't. But flat out dismissing it's use because it doesn't work with one's workflow, is self limiting. These tools are things we have to learn to work with

we are NOT jsut composers, same went back in the day before computers, most people played an instrument of sorts

now many of us hve to mix, midi tech, edit...whatever... ignoring that you do all of that, but saying you wont do "more work" is jsut.. again personal resistance. It's the same type of arguments I kept making when giga sampler was around and I kept saying people needed to learn to program their own instruments to get the best out of them for themselves.

It's not the phrase libraries fault that people dont' put the time into learning what you can do with them, or not wanting to spend time with the tools. It's your own,.. or the industries, or the deadline.

The tools are here. Phrases are tools. they aren't the problem. It' snot wanting to work with them that is. Your own pergative. My complaint is the general disregard I was reading and the misconceptions, and then blaming the tool as if it was the problem

these things have hearts ma.....

oh wait...


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 13, 2011)

choc0thrax @ Thu Oct 13 said:


> This suspicious eastwest lurker guy has nothin' but praise for a lib after crapping all over the concept of it.
> 
> I wonder if his opinion extends to all the loop and phrase containing eastwest products?



I have them. I think they sound very good. I hardly ever use them as it is just not the way I _personally_ choose to compose.

Once again, I don't say anyone else is wrong not to follow my example nor am I advocating that people not buy these kind of libraries. So how am I "crapping all over the concept?"


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## Folmann (Oct 13, 2011)

The stench of your presence to start with - and the fact you cannot stop writing in this thread. But let me ask you for the third time... How can you say you don't have to prove anything ... yet you feel the need to keep on posting and posting here... explain urself .

0oD


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 13, 2011)

Folmann @ Thu Oct 13 said:


> The stench of your presence to start with - and the fact you cannot stop writing in this thread. But let me ask you for the third time... How can you say you don't have to prove anything ... yet you feel the need to keep on posting and posting here... Xplain .


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## Folmann (Oct 13, 2011)

But let me ask you for the fourth time... How can you say you don't have to prove anything ... yet you feel the need to keep on posting and posting here... explain urself darlin'?

0oD


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## Folmann (Oct 13, 2011)

Jay. You always feel the need to respond and that is the fundamental issue here. You never cease to stop - cause you don't know how to. 

So in this case I will be the evil voice in your ear and keep on reminding you about the fact you always post, but never ever give examples, while you are also deliberately trying to damage a brand working for another commercial entity.


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## mpalenik (Oct 13, 2011)

KingIdiot @ Thu Oct 13 said:


> it's comments like this that make me truly believe people have a misconception of what can be done with phrases, AND as well that have a thought that you'll be workign with maybe 40 or so phrases.



But think about this. There are 12 notes in the scale. That means that ignoring rhythm, there are 144 possible 2 note phrases, 1728 possible three note phrases, 2076 possible 4 note phrases, etc. for 12^n possible n note phrases, or 12^(n-1) if you don't consider transpositions to be different phrases.

Now, assuming you restrict your rhythms to half notes, quarter notes, eighth notes, and sixteenth notes (which is pretty restrictive), you now have 2304 possible 2 note phrases, or 48^n possible n note phrases.

In light of that, 40 doesn't exactly sound like a whole lot, although I understand that you can mix and match parts of different phrases.



> Troels said he worked for four months with the player, I think there's a ton of multisamples and some phrases in multiple keys that are going to be very flexible. The thought process behind a usable phrase library is more than jsut recoring some loops and being done with it. Or even basic one shots. The thing is, one has to learn how deep the phrases go, and then retrain your brain to think about how they can all be used in different ways.



I'm not saying I think this library is useless, just that I can understand why a lot of people are saying it's not for them.



> you don't write and then hope the phrases can work, you write and MAKE the phrases work.



Are you saying that you can write out any arbitrary musical line without knowing about what's available in this library and then after you buy it, you will be able to play it as written?

Either way, with phrases or multisamples, you make compromises. In the case of multisamples, you're compromising realism. In the case of phrases, it's flexibility. It's just a matter of which is more important for you. For people who are more interested in composition than producing a finished track quickly to be used in a production, multisamples just work better. It may not sound perfectly realistic, but you can play exactly what you write.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 13, 2011)

My opinion (I'm not a moderator of this section):

Jay is entitled to say that he's not a fan of phrases, Troels is entitled to get mad at him for posting in a thread about his library, Jay is entitled to repeat the same thing again, Troels is entitled to repeat that Jay never posts cues, Jay is entitled to say "go to my website and listen to cues" again...and yet this is getting too personal and stupid. And personal attacks are illegal.

If I were the referee I'd issue offsetting technical fouls and ask everyone to advance the discussion.


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## KingIdiot (Oct 13, 2011)

no one can say any library will be able to play what ever you write without knowing whats in it.

again my point was just that you can't dismiss the tool outright, and that's what's happening (though I'm generalizing a bit for sake of word vomit)

my point is, you don't have to compose for the phrases, that's the easy way, yes, but you can think a little differently, and combine, crossfade, edit, time stretch and pitch to get them to play what you want, and sometimes end up with more realistic results.

the same way one sets up a template, and jumps form track to track to switch articulations or uses multiple keyswitches. Diferent workflows to get a similar result. One is not better than the other, one is jsut more comfortable to work with, because we're used to it.

jsut like I fly on Cubase, but come to a halt in workflow in Logic...


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## synthetic (Oct 13, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Oct 13 said:


> Jay is entitled to say that he's not a fan of phrases...



Come on. That's not what this is about. Jay has a long habit of pissing in the Cheerios of product announcements. He points out technical limitations of libraries that just so happen to compete with his employer. And then when people call him on it, "hey, it's just my personal opinion man!" For a long time he even kept two accounts open to sock puppet threads like this. Whether it's a planned attack, whether he just wants every conversation to be about him, or whether he's just too obtuse to see what's going on, it just sucks.


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 13, 2011)

Just want to point out that this thread did NOT start out as a product announcement thread. The OP wrote something like: "I am surprised no one is talking about this library."

Nor was I the first one in the thread to make the points that eventually were discussed.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 13, 2011)

Folmann @ Thu Oct 13 said:


> NYC Composer @ Thu Oct 13 said:
> 
> 
> > Folmann @ Thu Oct 13 said:
> ...



Troels- to say the very least, you possess no genius in the art of subtlety. Nor are you particularly self aware if you're not cognizant of the fact that your posts are dripping with venom.

I give credit where credit is due in acknowledging your impressive artistic and technical prowess. None of that makes you a particularly pleasant fellow, and in fact with this screed, you are demonstrating quite the opposite.

However, since you seem to be enjoying making your point in this puerlie manner, have at it. Over and over. By the way- I would feel this way no matter WHO you were going after.


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## Folmann (Oct 13, 2011)

Gentlemen,

Let me redirect your attention to the results at hand ... The following two demos were each created in about five minutes each by combining multi-samples and phrases together using 8Dio upcoming Solo Violin library. 

We will be posting more demos later in the month.

Ps. I received a couple of questions regarding the strings in the background, which were from Symphobia 2 Ensemble Sustain patch. 

Enjoy:

[flash width=250 height=150 loop=false]http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Fplaylists%2F1177086[/flash]


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## david robinson (Oct 13, 2011)

what does this mean?
libs are restricted to their content.
that is all.
j.


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 13, 2011)

This thread started in Sample Talk, and I'm going to carry on treating it that way. I'd have started another IN sample talk to discuss the phrase issue, cos it's fundamental to people's reactions to it, but I think it's against the spirit to have combatative debate in an announcement thread. But it's been moved here, so we're stuck with it here but it's too artificial to now treat it like a regular commercial announcement thread cos it isn't. So, with that in mind:



KingIdiot @ Fri Oct 14 said:


> my point is, you don't have to compose for the phrases, that's the easy way, yes, but you can think a little differently, and combine, crossfade, edit, time stretch and pitch to get them to play what you want, and sometimes end up with more realistic results.
> 
> the same way one sets up a template, and jumps form track to track to switch articulations or uses multiple keyswitches. Diferent workflows to get a similar result. One is not better than the other, one is jsut more comfortable to work with, because we're used to it.
> 
> jsut like I fly on Cubase, but come to a halt in workflow in Logic...



Maybe that works for you, but it seems absurd to believe that all of us should embrace this pradigm.

I'm working on a piece right now that's totally orchestral. It has a mix of solo and ensemble instruments. The melody, countermelody etc, is what I'm choosing of course. Often these solo instruments double the ensemble part, sometimes they fly on their own for a while. Now, when it comes to the solo violin part, are you really suggesting it is reasonable to throw out the way I am working, turn everything on its head and start hunting for scraps that fit into the whole? And then how about the viola, cello and double bass? Will they have complementary phrases I'm also meant to integrate as and when they arrive? It's a nonsense. I've suggested to Troels several times he elaborates further on the multisamples element of the library if it contains more than basic patches, and so far he hasn't done so, so I'm assuming it doesn't have legato, port etc.

The correct approach to this library - as I said earlier, Ed expanded on and probably a few others said it too - is that certain pieces might suit this library, but you have to approach the whole process differently. The entire piece, not just the part. I have another sketch that, based on 8dio's stunning demos, this library might work very well in (if I don't mind having my hand led, and in this piece I might not). It's far looser, more ambient. Perhaps its more of an equivalent of saying to a terrific player "just improv over this, would you?" and then me editing the best bits. That's cool - that can work - but it's the equivalent of that player only being able express themselves through improvisation as they can only interpret written music without any expressive ability whatsoever.

That is totally different to how I'd normally want to work. We all work differently, and that's cool - what I object to is the notion that somehow I'm luddite in my views for putting composition first, most of the time.

As for the Troels / Jay blow up... I don't think Jay has a case to answer, and no amount of repeating the same questions changes it. His name here is EastWestLurker - if you'd prefer EvilEastWestOverlord or something and the reference is too oblique for you, it's right there in the sig. Plenty of folks here don't post their own stuff, but it's riight there if you click on their link. No problem with that either. There's no hidden agenda - if there is an agenda it's out in the open and people can evaluate that themselves, and that is of course fair game. Crazy.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Oct 13, 2011)

Troels,

This is a great library and it will greatly greatly benefit any working composer. I think 8Dio makes exceptional libraries that really fill the gap between other libraries that a composer might own.

When people say the library is limited. I dont agree with that. In fact, I would say that most other libraries are limited in the solo strings department. I have never used any solo strings from any library nor heard any demos that convince me of the realism.

The point is, that a working composer needs these tools at hand. After all, you dont always get the time or budgets to get a live player.

Most of these external things are usually taken care of by production so its not like if I own 8Dio violin, I will not use a live player and keep the money!

I think its about making the end result as good and professional as possible. Of course, I would love to have the LSO at my disposal for every score or commercial I work on but sadly that is not the case.

Believe me guys, you think that these libraries are limiting - they are not!

Take for example 8Dio Aura - it has all rhythmic content and I have already used it for three[/i] feature films and various commercials. Its a beautiful library. In fact, I want more of it!!! 

Similarly, I dont think 8DIo solo Violin is to be used as a tool to write a violin concerto. Its a library with a great sound, amazing flavour and can be creatively used. 

Specially in Non-orchestral situations as well, it will be awesome.


I dont own many major East West Libraries but I have to say that East West seems to be pissing its customers off and they are fighting a battle in every other thread that I visit these days. They have had problems in their libraries, sample enging and customer support - thre of the most important areas.

I hope they will learn from other developers because some of their stuff sounds quite good and the customer relation stuff should not shadow their hard work.

This library will be very popular with most composers.


Thanks for making amazing libraries Troels. Awesome!


Best,
 
Tanuj.


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 13, 2011)

vibrato @ Fri Oct 14 said:


> I dont think 8DIo solo Violin is to be used as a tool to write a violin concerto.



Er, then it's limiting then.

I don't think anyone is suggesting it won't sound sensational in compositions that are built around its paradigm. But as you point out, it can't be used to write conventional violin parts that the composer actually composes (at least beyond a very basic level), hence this heated debate. Read my post above - what am I supposed to do when I'm writing an orchestral piece that requires some solo violin - throw out my melody and countermelodies for all the other parts to match the great phrase-based expressiveness of this library? When I post the piece using the tools I have, it'll probably get scoffs from Troels cos the solo violin doesn't sound a 100% real. But it IS my piece, and I hope eventually to get those parts replaced at least in part by live players, and I can just print out the parts I have for them. Not so easy to do with phrases.

It is therefore limited in its application - but where you CAN use it, it'll doubtless be first class, and that's the point.


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## Udo (Oct 14, 2011)

Folmann @ Mon Oct 10 said:


> .... Please remember I am a very smart person. : )))))
> 
> - T


That's probably true, Troels, but you really have to do something about that inferiority complex, because it will become a major handicap (if it hasn't already) if you don't. :wink:

You don't seem to be able to handle criticism. I'm not talking about this thread in particular (didn't follow the last part in detail - the pettiness went on too long), but there have been other situations, where someone had a valid point, which you seemed to interpret as an attack on you personal integrity.


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## dedersen (Oct 14, 2011)

I am not sure if this is off-topic by now, but I am wondering if you, Troels, can shed some light on which sort of phrases are included? Are they mostly shorter, idiomatic note transitions or longer, more elaborate phrases? Or both? 

I'm curious to get more information about this, also regarding the multi-sampled element of it. I realize that you haven't actually officially announced the library yet, so if details are not yet available, I will grudgingly wait.


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## wqaxsz (Oct 14, 2011)

Thomas_J @ Fri Oct 14 said:


> Arrogance is displayed much more frequently by the ignorant and opinionated of this board (the worst combo).... End of discussion. NEXT.



"End of discussion. Next." Isn't that a bit... mmh... arrogant ?

what kind of phrases ? How mucho ? At what speedos ? Tonality ?


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## Hicks (Oct 14, 2011)

Hi all,

a lot of people are complaining about phrases, but even not knowing what kind of phrases they are.

If its a 2 minutes long phrase with harmony clearly identified behind, letting not any kind of freedom to the composer, I understand that people can complain.
But this is pretty sure not! A two notes phrase can be quite useful or a useful run (that tons of people cried for!).

Today libraries are full of phrases today, but they are not called like this. Open the eyes guys:

VSL: All the two notes samples: Grace notes, zigane notes (from Chamber strings), run arpeggios, even the dynamic samples can be considered as phrase as they are locked increased in velocity samples plaied by a real human.

OSR: 75% of the library is composed on phrases, but nobody complained on those.

Symphobia: Even the orchestration is done!!! FX from Symphobia can be found everyone from TV show to movies!

Hollywood winds: 90% phrases! This one make everyone believe they are John Williams by putting winds run everywhere (btw, winds are not only use for runs in orchestra).

And I can't talk about all the arabian female singers phrases to mimic Gladiator.

We can go on member composition part on this forum, and 75% of the compositions are full of phrases and, if not, of multi samples plagiarizing well known cues (it would have been faster to copy/paste directly the CD to make good phrases than to try to emulate them).

:twisted: :oops:


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 14, 2011)

Blimey, a lot happens in an hour here....

Thomas J (though since the discussion has apparently ended, this is probably a waste of time...) "There are no valid arguments against Troels' approach to deep phrase sampling, except ones own shortcomings". OK, I'll explain my position again, then someone can specifically answer rather than just taking general unsupported potshots. I'm doing an orchestral piece, working out the composition as I go (there's an active thread featuring my current piece, Broken Apart, in the members section if you want specifics and before I get accused of not posting anything - http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... =1#3591427 ). I get to the solo violin, and I know what notes I want, being the composer and all. So I go to the 8dio Solo violin track. And sure, I can play the notes, but it's just a basic sus patch and is therefore obviously lacking compared the alternatives. However, I CAN use the outstanding sounding phrases... if I change my tune, harmony, whatever. See, I don't wanna do that... that's not The Tune. My violin part is based on a motif, so dammit I'm stuck. I have the notes in my head, I wanna play them on the keyboard and give them as much expression as the VI will allow. Thomas, here's my question - is this a shortcoming of mine? If so, how may I improve?

Hicks- you're right that other libraries use phrases. It's all a matter of context, degree, amount and purpose. For example, I've no problem with using a well orchestrated chord - if I wanna use a Cmaj, I may as well use THAT beautifully orchestrated Cmaj. On the other hand, the chords are very limiting. I've found CineOrch invaluable on deadlines, but I very rarely use it when I'm working on a more considered piece. CineOrch is limited and therefore limiting, but excellent at what it does (perhaps in that sense like Solo Violin).

Symphobia 2 pushes the phrases too far for me in places, it's like working with loops. On the other end of the scale, a grace note / trill / run etc is imho a phrase in technicality only, it's a playing style. A legato transition is a phrase, technically, but these devices always allow me to choose the notes.


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## jamwerks (Oct 14, 2011)

To say nothing of all the percussion loop "phrases" that most of us use!


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## Rob (Oct 14, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ 14th October 2011 said:


> Blimey, a lot happens in an hour here....
> 
> Thomas J (though since the discussion has apparently ended, this is probably a waste of time...) "There are no valid arguments against Troels' approach to deep phrase sampling, except ones own shortcomings". OK, I'll explain my position again, then someone can specifically answer rather than just taking general unsupported potshots. I'm doing an orchestral piece, working out the composition as I go (there's an active thread featuring my current piece, Broken Apart, in the members section if you want specifics and before I get accused of not posting anything - http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... =1#3591427 ). I get to the solo violin, and I know what notes I want, being the composer and all. So I go to the 8dio Solo violin track. And sure, I can play the notes, but it's just a basic sus patch and is therefore obviously lacking compared the alternatives. However, I CAN use the outstanding sounding phrases... if I change my tune, harmony, whatever. See, I don't wanna do that... that's not The Tune. My violin part is based on a motif, so dammit I'm stuck. I have the notes in my head, I wanna play them on the keyboard and give them as much expression as the VI will allow. Thomas, here's my question - is this a shortcoming of mine? If so, how may I improve?
> 
> ...




Guy, I'm totally with you...


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## KingIdiot (Oct 14, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Thu Oct 13 said:


> That is totally different to how I'd normally want to work. We all work differently, and that's cool - what I object to is the notion that somehow I'm luddite in my views for putting composition first, most of the time.



This is my EXACT point, the library doesn't make composition not come first, it's just a choice of workflow, but saying the style of library is unusable because it doesn't fit one's workflow is what I'm talking about. Tools are tools, just because the type of tool doesn't work smoothly in your workflow, doesn't make it unusable or limiting.

It's a personal choice, how you work, what you want to do, and how much time you want to put in (if you know how). I'm nos suggesting you don't know how, or that you're a lazy fuck, I'm saying it's up to you how much you want to put in. Taking offense to that is something that doesn't need to happen.


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## KingIdiot (Oct 14, 2011)

Thomas_J @ Fri Oct 14 said:


> I assure you Troels is a very pleasant man to be around. It is indeed his duty to educate the ignorant about his libraries. Why wouldn't it be? There's no arrogance in that at all. Arrogance is displayed much more frequently by the ignorant and opinionated of this board (the worst combo). There are no valid arguments against Troels' approach to deep phrase sampling, except ones own shortcomings. To dismiss the potential of these libraries is to admit a basic lack of technical skill as well as some creative inhibits. Ignorance and inability. Of course the creator of such libraries feels the need to educate those who fail to grasp the concept or see its potential and it should come as no surprise when he does so. End of discussion. NEXT.



I still hate you thomas, taking the shit in my brain and putting it more succinctly than I ever could... jackass


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## KingIdiot (Oct 14, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Fri Oct 14 said:


> Blimey, a lot happens in an hour here....
> 
> Thomas J (though since the discussion has apparently ended, this is probably a waste of time...) "There are no valid arguments against Troels' approach to deep phrase sampling, except ones own shortcomings". OK, I'll explain my position again, then someone can specifically answer rather than just taking general unsupported potshots. I'm doing an orchestral piece, working out the composition as I go (there's an active thread featuring my current piece, Broken Apart, in the members section if you want specifics and before I get accused of not posting anything - http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... =1#3591427 ). I get to the solo violin, and I know what notes I want, being the composer and all. So I go to the 8dio Solo violin track. And sure, I can play the notes, but it's just a basic sus patch and is therefore obviously lacking compared the alternatives. However, I CAN use the outstanding sounding phrases... if I change my tune, harmony, whatever. See, I don't wanna do that... that's not The Tune. My violin part is based on a motif, so dammit I'm stuck. I have the notes in my head, I wanna play them on the keyboard and give them as much expression as the VI will allow. Thomas, here's my question - is this a shortcoming of mine? If so, how may I improve?
> 
> ...




you use other tools to manipulate teh sample to fit your composition. Melodyne, pitch shifting, adjustments of starting points, time stretching, renders of multiple phrases to tracks and crossfades between to make them work. All this sounds like "way too much work" to people that don't do it all the time, but really it's jsut another approach and takes practice, or atleast repeated uses to get a feel for that type of addition to the workflow. Just the same it took people time to get used to loading up the giga editor and adjusting ADSR envelopes (which there was SO MUCH resistance to a decade ago)


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 14, 2011)

KingIdiot @ Fri Oct 14 said:


> This is my EXACT point, the library doesn't make composition not come first, it's just a choice of workflow, but saying the style of library is unusable because it doesn't fit one's workflow is what I'm talking about. Tools are tools, just because the type of tool doesn't work smoothly in your workflow, doesn't make it unusable or limiting.



No, this a far more fundamental issue than that. It's not "workflow" cos this library will limit the notes I can use. That's not workflow, it's a fundamental limitation. It's like trying to persuade an author to use a brilliant computer program that will write the words much quicker, but only from it's own selection of (beautiful) prose. It might make her look good, but it won't be her.

This really is a silly discussion. 8dio Solo Violin has basic multisamples and a phrase library. That definition means you can't use it to its full potential without letting it dictate your composition of that part, with your guidance. Essentially, that's a fact - no amount of smoke and mirrors can change that, no matter how clever the implementation. And here's why it's a silly discussion - THAT'S OK. Troels is still a clever clever developer. It'll still be an incredibly useful library with which you can make beautiful compositions. It's just those beautiful compositions will be limited in their scope, and not the pure product of the composer. If all sides could accept that, then this discussion really WOULD be over.

My own position, for me personally, is this - if a brilliant violinist with a Stradivarius refuses to play the notes I ask in anything other than a flat emotionless way, I won't work with them again.


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## dedersen (Oct 14, 2011)

Seems to me that there are some pretty wild assumptions being made in this thread, about a library that really we know very little about. It all depends on how these phrases are constructed, how flexible they are, whether they are available in any key, etc. All stuff that we don't know yet.

Until Troels decides to shed a bit more light on exactly what is included, and the nature of the phrases, these discussions seem pretty pointless in relation to the specific library.

So, Troels, enlighten us! Then we will all be in much better positions to let you know in exactly which ways this library will ruin our lives! :D


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## Windle (Oct 14, 2011)

I have a couple of libraries by Ueberschall - Saxophone and Horn Section - that are phrase libraries but I find them very useful as they have a version of Melodyne as the front end allowing you to easily change the pitch and duration of the phrases on an in-built grid.

This allows me not only to change the notes to the ones I would like (and generate phrase variations) but also see what notes I've got to be able to (relatively) easily notate them if a real player is going to be involved later.

The 8dio Solo Violin sounds terrific on these demos so far but it would be a far more tempting product to me if something like this were possible.

Is there anything you can reveal?

Best wishes,

W.


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 14, 2011)

dedersen @ Fri Oct 14 said:


> Seems to me that there are some pretty wild assumptions being made in this thread, about a library that really we know very little about. It all depends on how these phrases are constructed, how flexible they are, whether they are available in any key, etc. All stuff that we don't know yet.



Even there - not really. There's a limit to phrases, and that limit is "playing each note on a keyboard", which is the major stumbling block for some of us. Even if it were included with a super-advanced version of Melodyne, I don't know how you'd adjust the rhythm, phrasing, note connectivity etc. The whole point of using phrases is that it sounds killer the way it is. Which it will. But... well, just repeating myself now.


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## FriFlo (Oct 14, 2011)

IMO the phrases vs. multisamples issue is very much an individual matter. Some hate it, some like it. "Real Composers" hate the fact, that "not-real-composers" can create great results with these, without being a "real composer" ... :twisted: 
Personaly, I don't mind phrases, but prefer to have more playable instruments, like physical modelling. I have the tonehammer choirs, because in this case the prases are sounding so much better than a certain EWQL wordbuilder results, that even film people can hear the difference ...
For a solo violin I still prefer the ability to really play everything, as intended. For that pupose I am looking forwards to sample modeling!!! 
I would suggest to put up some technical video demonstration for the 8dio Solo Violin. Everyone should be able to see, how you can play the thing wihtout using the prases and what kind of "candys" you can add to the pie with the phrases ...


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## NYC Composer (Oct 14, 2011)

Thomas_J @ Fri Oct 14 said:


> I assure you Troels is a very pleasant man to be around. It is indeed his duty to educate the ignorant about his libraries. Why wouldn't it be? There's no arrogance in that at all. Arrogance is displayed much more frequently by the ignorant and opinionated of this board (the worst combo). There are no valid arguments against Troels' approach to deep phrase sampling, except ones own shortcomings. To dismiss the potential of these libraries is to admit a basic lack of technical skill as well as some creative inhibits. Ignorance and inability. Of course the creator of such libraries feels the need to educate those who fail to grasp the concept or see its potential and it should come as no surprise when he does so. End of discussion. NEXT.



Another genius heard from. What IS it about some of the most talented people on this board? Your right to be unpleasant yourself and assign ignorance to others has obviously been conferred on you by the Big Man in the Sky, so far be it from me...but what does "educating those who fail to grasp the concept" have to do with adolescent, smarmy name-calling and baiting? Educators don't abuse their students, not good ones, anyway. 

I never had any problem with the concept of this library personally. As Troels is an extremely talented, hard working sample-ist and creator, I'm sure it will be excellent. I prefer playable libraries to phrase-based libraries. If I understand it correctly, Troels' library has some of both. I look forward to more reading and demos as I always do with his libraries. I do NOT look forward to these exchanges, and on many boards this thread would be locked. I detest speech suppression, so I'm glad it hasn't been-but I wish people would police themselves a little better. In the absence of that, I wouldn't mind seeing a little more courage from others in expressing that this crap doesn't belong here.

NEXT, my sacred Aunt Fanny. Volley to you.


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## dedersen (Oct 14, 2011)

I agree, a technical video demo a la some of those Troels has made for other libraries, would be awesome to see at some point.

Guy, think I see your point. However, seeing how the library is phrases AND multisamples, the crucial point in this is really how well those multisamples can be integrated with the phrases. Time (Troels) will tell.


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## Scrianinoff (Oct 14, 2011)

I bought Requiem and Liberis and am enjoying their quality and their phrased 'polyphonetic' features. Based on those experiences and Troels' other achievements, if I would be in doubt whether a partly phrase based library could work for solo violin, the benefit of the doubt would be strongly on the side of Troels. 

Go Troels, go!


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## Scrianinoff (Oct 14, 2011)

And what the hell happened to the advocated sentiment of 'working with a library' in the sense of getting the best out of it, instead of focusing on its weaker points?

A sentiment, I might add, that was repeatedly brought forward in other threads by one of this thread's bickering debaters in light of some developer's tuning and software issues.


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## Pzy-Clone (Oct 14, 2011)

KingIdiot @ Fri Oct 14 said:


> you use other tools to manipulate teh sample to fit your composition. Melodyne, pitch shifting, adjustments of starting points, time stretching, renders of multiple phrases to tracks and crossfades between to make them work. All this sounds like "way too much work" to people that don't do it all the time, but really it's jsut another approach and takes practice, or atleast repeated uses to get a feel for that type of addition to the workflow. Just the same it took people time to get used to loading up the giga editor and adjusting ADSR envelopes (which there was SO MUCH resistance to a decade ago)



Come now...all of those things can indeed be done, and is far from a new mindset at all, it is in fact what everyone was doing before loading up that Giga editor...hunched over murder-inducing backbreaking tiny little badly lit displays , chopping audio like there was no tomorrow. 

But the point i was focused on, as well as several others i think, is that if you subject a phrase, or any lengthy sample to any, or several of these things, pitch shifting, time compression, xfading, edits , perhaps even down to their bare minimum to compose freely and unhindered, are you not actually just using the same mindset as we do when working with multi-samples? 

And not really using a phrase to it`s optimal potential. Because , as i see it the purpose of a phrase or any of these new libraries that focus on audiorealism, is exactly...that, realism , so why would you want to remove that one strong advantage it has , and spend twice the time doing it, by forcing the samples into something that we already can do by other means available? 

And with at least as many artifacts, you end up using the very same approach and end up with the same old unpleasant qualities that instigated the need for a phrase library to begin with....and i can see why people did that in the past, because that was the only way it was possible to do it, but now it is not...so to suggest you should work with a phrase library to the complete compositional freedom you are advocating, is really pointless to me, at least, and defies the original purpose of using a phrase library. 

I am not disputing it`s usefulness...it is what it is, or actually we do not know what "it" is yet...but let us be honest enough to say that a phrase library has limitations, in its most basic incarnation, why is that so difficult for some here?

So using both phrases and multi-samples, does seem like a good solution.

See everyone here understands that a phrase based library will significantly increase the realism and sonic qualites of our music over traditional multi-samples, i think...but the question for me is not what it can do, but also what it cannot do.

Ideally one would just buy everything and use the best bits, but seeing as this ...i assume , is something 8Dio will be wanting money for, we are in every valid position conceivable to ask these questions, it is not a matter of dismissing it... and the only thing that has to be "proven" in this context is that the 8Dio violin is a useful tool for me as a composer...at least if they want my money, that is


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## dpasdernick (Oct 14, 2011)

So after all of the sampling by East West, LASS, VSL etc, and physical modelling soundsets, etc we've come to playing a piano key that triggers a phrase because that's as close to a real violin performance as we can get? At this point isn't it better to just use a real violin player? The idea of building a composition around a bunch of phrases is nuts in my humble opinion. I'd rather compose with a Roland Sound canvas with my own notes.

I mean this with all due respect to Troels and company. Troels you are a fantastic composer and sound developer. I know that this is just another "tool" to get a guy a tad more realism in a spot where he might need it but I also think that it is a sign that no matter how many articulations, legato speeds, velocities etc anyone samples you'll never get the performance of a violin by banging on a piano keyboard.


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## ysnyvz (Oct 14, 2011)

dpasdernick @ Fri Oct 14 said:


> So after all of the sampling by East West, LASS, VSL etc, and physical modelling soundsets, etc we've come to playing a piano key that triggers a phrase because that's as close to a real violin performance as we can get? At this point isn't it better to just use a real violin player? The idea of building a composition around a bunch of phrases is nuts in my humble opinion. I'd rather compose with a Roland Sound canvas with my own notes.
> 
> I mean this with all due respect to Troels and company. Troels you are a fantastic composer and sound developer. I know that this is just another "tool" to get a guy a tad more realism in a spot where he might need it but I also think that it is a sign that no matter how many articulations, legato speeds, velocities etc anyone samples you'll never get the performance of a violin by banging on a piano keyboard.



absolutely agree.
if we can't even come close to realism with multisamples,there is no need for this huge sampling industry,wasting time and money
may be we should compose with synthesizers like in 80s :mrgreen:


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## chimuelo (Oct 14, 2011)

Great thread, and excellent marketing skills, product and demos.
Developers need contraversy and again I enjoy the WWE style shootouts..

I often look back to Mr.T as Clubber Lang in Rocky III.


Announcer: " Do you accept the challenge from 8dio Solo Violin in a live shootout.....?..." Jay Asher: " I refuse tha Challenge, becasue 8dio is no challenge, but I'll be happy to beat up on them some more..."


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## Ryan Scully (Oct 14, 2011)

Scrianinoff @ Fri Oct 14 said:


> I bought Requiem and Liberis and am enjoying their quality and their phrased 'polyphonetic' features. Based on those experiences and Troels' other achievements, if I would be in doubt whether a partly phrase based library could work for solo violin, the benefit of the doubt would be strongly on the side of Troels.
> 
> Go Troels, go!



I think this is an excellent point. Both Liberis and Requiem(I own both as well) can achieve an unparalleled sense of realism due to the addition of both multi samples and phrases. Granted this is a different instrument entirely but the latter certainly set a new standard for sampling a choir IMO. I am certainly looking forward to this library.


Ryan


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## KingIdiot (Oct 14, 2011)

I'm just gonna let thomas' comment on the usability of the library be the the last words. It's really what I've been trying to say all along. NEXT


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## vasio (Oct 14, 2011)

i can see the caution about sampled phrases. kinda reminds me of the similar caution about the evils of samples and how it would put symphonic players out of work a decade ago. nothing worse than a closed mind (one probably bruised by hitting ones head against a wall trying to get realism out of glueing isolated sample notes together) so seriously, it is a simply a composing tool not a replacement for your writing chops. osr is another example.


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 14, 2011)

vasio @ Fri Oct 14 said:


> i can see the caution about sampled phrases. kinda reminds me of the similar caution about the evils of samples and how it would put symphonic players out of work a decade ago. nothing worse than a closed mind (one probably bruised by hitting ones head against a wall trying to get realism out of glueing isolated sample notes together) so seriously, it is a simply a composing tool not a replacement for your writing chops. osr is another example.



In what universe is "recognising that phrases have obvious compositional limitations" equivalent to "scaremongering about the evils of samples?"

I'm not sure there has been a single person here - certainly including Jay - who has said this is a bad or useless product. Indeed, pretty much everyone has said it's gonna be great. Including me, numerous times. The only closed minds I can see are those who can't accept that ALTHOUGH THIS PRODUCT WILL BE AMAZINGLY GREAT it has obvious limitations as well.


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## germancomponist (Oct 14, 2011)

What a thread..... .

I don't understand how people can discuss over and over again about a library what is not finished yet?

If you do not like to work with phrases, thats ok. If you like it, also ok. So what?

I am sure this lib will be a great lib!

Here I agree with Thomas and Mr. KingIdiot: NEXT!


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## chimuelo (Oct 14, 2011)

Yeah but the Roostering is also entertaining.
Im waiting for the virtual " front rolling dick-ear jabs " and other great WWE moves...


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## KingIdiot (Oct 14, 2011)

I want to clarify that I never said the library would be limitless. All libraries have limitations, it's just fact. My point was the flat out dismissal of using phrases because you have to adjust your composition to work with them, which in a well done phrase library is plain wrong. It's all I've rallied against, and it's whats been argued multiple times. It wasn't about the library itself actually, or how if it's going to be good (though who are we kidding?! it probably will be). It was about the misjudgement and misinformation of the tools and how they can be used.

It *IS* about workflow and working style. It's not about composition at it's core. If you need a keyboard to plunk away on to compose, then it's about workflow. If you need a guitar, then keyboards are a pain in the ass. If you're pen/paper, then MIDI is a pain in the ass.


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## dpasdernick (Oct 14, 2011)

vasio @ Fri Oct 14 said:


> i can see the caution about sampled phrases. kinda reminds me of the similar caution about the evils of samples and how it would put symphonic players out of work a decade ago. nothing worse than a closed mind (one probably bruised by hitting ones head against a wall trying to get realism out of glueing isolated sample notes together) so seriously, it is a simply a composing tool not a replacement for your writing chops. osr is another example.



Are you saying that these to issues are similar? That the concern of sample based instruments back in the day is parallel with the concerns of phrases today? A crappy sampled violin still allows me to choose the notes. A phrase locks me in, no matter how lovely it sounds and the care taken by the developer.

I can get my head around a drum loop (although I try not to use them) but to have a library tell me where my song is going melodically or harmonically (and worse to have it sound the same as your composition because there's a finite amount of loops in the lib) makes me wonder where the craft of composing is goingto end up. And if the response is "I can write faster this way" (as it sometimes is) then I'll do you one better to say just use needle drop and call it a day.

I know there may be a market for this type of instrument and that somebody may make his or her fortune using it at the right time in the right way. 

Again, this is not meant to bash Troels or his team. I have nothing but respect for the man. he is a genius but this is just one product of his I will not buy.


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## midphase (Oct 14, 2011)

vasio @ Fri Oct 14 said:


> i can see the caution about sampled phrases. kinda reminds me of the similar caution about the evils of samples and how it would put symphonic players out of work a decade ago.




Hmmm...it kinda sorta did...didn't it? I can tell you that here in Los Angeles, most TV and indie film work no longer uses orchestral players. Just sayin'.


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## Vartio (Oct 14, 2011)

Troels described his library as a combination of multisamples and phrases...

Vsl solo violin could be described as a combination of multisamples (staccs, sustains ,legatos etc) and phrases (runs, grace notes, repetitions etc)

Until we know more about this library we can't say anything about its shortcomings... it might be more flexible and better sounding than vsl. who knows...


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## Nick Phoenix (Oct 14, 2011)

As a developer who has gotten into trouble frequently on this forum, my feeling is people should view developers as fellow travelers in the musical journey. Why shouldn't Troels be allowed to defend his concept. What is the big deal?? The reality is the more complex and musical an instrument you tackle, the more criticism you will face, so a solo violin will be scrutinized. But why can't Troels discuss this in a straight forward manner. The customer is not always right in this instance. It's just a dialogue. I personally don't use phrases any more. It's just a personal preference. Thomas J does on occasion. Does that make me a better composer than Thomas?


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## CouchCow (Oct 14, 2011)

> It *IS* about workflow and working style. It's not about composition at it's core. If you need a keyboard to plunk away on to compose, then it's about workflow. If you need a guitar, then keyboards are a pain in the ass. If you're pen/paper, then MIDI is a pain in the ass.



Is it really about workflow though, the commonality between the above mentioned compositional methods , independent of medium, is that you start working with the most basic "unit" of western music as opposed to a set of phrases. That difference is what i imagine some people can't reconcile with. 

For me 8dio tools have been nothing but inspirational. Their stuff sounds kick-ass and most importantly often sets up a solid base upon which ideas can be generated...much time has been spent holding down one aura key while scribbling ideas on a piece of paper, in fact "aura" has over time sortta become a basic musical unit for me equivalent to any note or scale. As ironic as it seems, a preset library of solo violin phrases will probably jump start my creativity more than hinder it. Just listen to Troels demos, those wonderful pieces of music took 5 minutes to do, makes me dream of the possibilities...

Sorry for the rambling, my 0.0002 cents o/~


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## germancomponist (Oct 14, 2011)

CouchCow @ Fri Oct 14 said:


> > As ironic as it seems, a preset library of solo violin phrases will probably jump start my creativity more than hinder it. Just listen to Troels demos, those wonderful pieces of music took 5 minutes to do, makes me dream of the possibilities...
> >
> > Sorry for the rambling, my 0.0002 cents o/~



+1

What I said earlier...... .


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## KingIdiot (Oct 14, 2011)

the one "library" thread I decide to post on in ages... and it's a shitstorm  it really is like nothing's changed, just people with new jobs 

when are we getting comics again?


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## midphase (Oct 14, 2011)

Ashif,

I don't understand why you're surprised that on a public forum people post and argue about differing opinions?

Ever been to Gearslutz?


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## P.T. (Oct 14, 2011)

Sometimes the tools can degrade the art.

I know people who don't listen to anything they know is done on a computer because they think it's all fake with loops, etc.

Of course there are people who don't use loops and phrases, who compose their music fully but get dropped into the computer box and people assume it's done with loops.

I will admit that the one area where loops seem OK is in pop and rock drums where much of the drumming is based on fairly standardized patterns strung together by the drummer, with fills thrown in where appropriate.

That can be done reasonably with loops that are personalized a bit. But even there I usually change things up (I tend to use midi for drums) and even rewrite the fills.


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## Nick Phoenix (Oct 14, 2011)

Woah. I just read the whole thread at the car wash! We have no control over Jay Asher. He is just supposed to help us with technical complaints. He has his own opinions. We talk rarely. I didn't really notice him saying anything bad, though. But I certainly understand Troels perspective. Looks like one of my threads from a year ago. I say let's cut everyone some slack and wait for Troels videos.


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## KingIdiot (Oct 14, 2011)

midphase @ Fri Oct 14 said:


> Ashif,
> 
> I don't understand why you're surprised that on a public forum people post and argue about differing opinions?
> 
> Ever been to Gearslutz?



Kays, I'm not surprised, I was a heavy contributing music forum member way before NS started at places like VSplanet, and I've avoided posting in gearslutz for about the same amount of time 

I'm very familiar with he forum mentality, but even more so how much more horn locking it is in the audio world. Psychologically I think there is something different with people who work with audio, and especially those who are engineers. There's a pessimism and underlying antagonism that is palpable, but also really unique to audio forums.

it's one of the reasons I've avoided the forums of late, not because I can't handle it, but becaues I find myself being pushed in by my own passion (like above)... which is a waste of fucking energy, cuz most everyone here knows how much I'd rather love music and joke around.. but sometimes my passion for the tools and abilities and skills we can all share come up.. It's always been that way, back in the threatening to sue happy days of NS, and the spylogging days of midi-mockup


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## Ed (Oct 14, 2011)

KingIdiot @ Fri Oct 14 said:


> midi-mockup



I miss midi-mockup, oh well those days are gone.


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 14, 2011)

Nick Phoenix @ Fri Oct 14 said:


> Woah. I just read the whole thread at the car wash! We have no control over Jay Asher. He is just supposed to help us with technical complaints. He has his own opinions. We talk rarely. I didn't really notice him saying anything bad, though. But I certainly understand Troels perspective. Looks like one of my threads from a year ago. I say let's cut everyone some slack and wait for Troels videos.



Yeah, do give Jay some support here - the guy said nothing wrong, got majorly attacked and now won't post regarding any products that aren't yours as a result. I know he can be a controversial figure round here, but I REALLY don't see what he was doing wrong here at all. He said it was a good-sounding library and not for him. What the hell's wrong with that?! He's upfront about who he works for and goodness knows he takes a lot of flack as a result. IMHO he's the person who needs to be cut the most slack around here.

Larry was right too.


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## midphase (Oct 14, 2011)

I guess what I'm having a problem figuring out is -- if someone chimes in and says that a certain product is the best thing since sliced bread, and someone else chimes in and says that they think it sucks -- why can't both opinions be allowed to happen? I mean who cares anyway...we all make purchasing decisions based on our needs and not what so and so says...right?

I think developers need to come to grips with the fact that not everybody is going to love their products as much as they do. Sometimes they will have rational reasons for doing so, and sometimes they won't.

If I chime in and comment that to my ears your product sound fake, I don't have to back up my claim with an example of my work...I'm not a developer and it's not my job to show you how it should have been done, I'm only expressing a personal opinion that to my ears your product sounds fake. The opposite is also true, if I say that I think your product sounds way better than another product...it's my opinion and I don't have to back up my claim with extensive A/B comparisons.

From a developer's standpoint, I think you are opting to discuss your product in a public forum with the expectations that it will allow you to promote sales in said product. However you have to realize that with the praise, you'll also get criticism...it's unavoidable!

So can we all lighten up around here? If you don't like what some individuals have to say about a product, either ignore their posts, or chime in with another insightful post that re-affirms why you think the product in question is awesome.


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 14, 2011)

midphase @ Fri Oct 14 said:


> I guess what I'm having a problem figuring out is -- if someone chimes in and says that a certain product is the best thing since sliced bread, and someone else chimes in and says that they think it sucks -- why can't both opinions be allowed to happen? I mean who cares anyway...we all make purchasing decisions based on our needs and not what so and so says...right?
> 
> I think developers need to come to grips with the fact that not everybody is going to love their products as much as they do. Sometimes they will have rational reasons for doing so, and sometimes they won't.
> 
> ...



+1. And the really insane thing is - NO-ONE on this thread has said this will suck! Everyone agrees the demo sounds great and it'll sound great in compositions, the only disagreement is in how widely you can use it, and some feel the need to go as far as saying that although it's strengths are in phrases, that needn't be limiting. It's pretty bizarre.

Anyway, I surely have spent too long on this thread, until Troels cares to advance the discussion there really isn't too much more to say I guess.


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## KingIdiot (Oct 14, 2011)

fuckin christ...


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## RiffWraith (Oct 14, 2011)

midphase @ Sat Oct 15 said:


> I guess what I'm having a problem figuring out is -- if someone chimes in and says that a certain product is the best thing since sliced bread, and someone else chimes in and says that they think it sucks -- why can't both opinions be allowed to happen?



Because this is the internet. 90% of what you say on an internet forum, while sitting all safe and cozy behind your computer screen, you would never say to a person's face.


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## Folmann (Oct 14, 2011)

What is the difference between a spammer and a bucket of shit? The bucket.


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 14, 2011)

Well, if that's meant to refer to Jay, I'm done with 8dio. As the owner of several of your products - nice one, Troels.

Mods - seriously.


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## Folmann (Oct 14, 2011)

Jay was banned from this thread Noise - cause of his conflict of interest. So apparently I am not the only one who shared that opinion. 

But I have no issues stating that your excessive need to repeat the same opinion is spam to me. 

Your next reply will be a testament to this.


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## Udo (Oct 14, 2011)

Folmann @ Sat Oct 15 said:


> What is the difference between a spammer and a bucket of [email protected]#t? The bucket.


Troels, grow up! You keep on "advertising" your insecure personality. There's a good chance you'll lose customers because of it!


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## dedersen (Oct 14, 2011)

Ah, come on, Troels. Lighten up, there is no need for this. Slap af! 

Someone pointed at a teaser for your new library and for some reason it turned into a debate about the merits of phrase libraries. People shared opinions back and forth, few of them (if any) having any direct relation to your library. If this was an official 8dio commercial announcement I could understand why you'd be pissed, but it wasn't.

I'm just frustrated that it seems like all the queries for more info on the library got lost as the thread turned sour.


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 14, 2011)

OK. Mods - what is going on here, exactly? The thread gets moved twice. Is Jay banned from it? If so, was it conflict of interest? Is this a rule now? Can no employee of another company even comment on anyone else's stuff? Or was it voluntary? I guess a thread lock is inevitable at this point, but a statement of clarity might be helpful all round.

VI-C is the best forum around, there are so many great people who are helpful. This thread is one of the occasional blips, sadly. I don't work for anyone, I just call things as I see 'em and try to be fair. I don't really know what's going on here now on this thread, except that I don't like it.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 14, 2011)

RiffWraith @ Fri Oct 14 said:


> midphase @ Sat Oct 15 said:
> 
> 
> > I guess what I'm having a problem figuring out is -- if someone chimes in and says that a certain product is the best thing since sliced bread, and someone else chimes in and says that they think it sucks -- why can't both opinions be allowed to happen?
> ...



Speaking only for myself, 100% of what I say in the Internet is exactly what I would say to someone's face.

If you had changed the wording to "Some of what people say on an Internet forum they would never say to someone's face", I would totally agree. For example, making fun of someone's name, or calling them 'ignorant' or ' a pussy'.

You know, adults can state their opinions forcefully without resorting to the sort of tactics that schoolyard bullies and other recalcitrant children employ. All it takes is a modicum of self control.

Like many other places on the Internet, this forum tends to divide into teams. I'm only on one team-the V.I. Control team. I want this place to remain the totally cool place it is and not devolve into something like NS.


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## Folmann (Oct 14, 2011)

You are right. I will shut up now.


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## KingIdiot (Oct 14, 2011)

I miss donnie


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## Lex (Oct 14, 2011)

KingIdiot @ Fri Oct 14 said:


> I miss donnie



..me too. He called me once a Towering Giant, in an violent raging outburst of course, gave a great boost to my inflated ego.

Btw, what a dumb fukin thread!

Demos sound great...can't wait to hear whats "under the hood".

alex


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## George Caplan (Oct 14, 2011)

Folmann @ Fri Oct 14 said:


> You are right. I will shut up now.



what you should have done is you shouldve agreed with him from minute one. and then carried on selling your product. thats how it works. never disagree with anyone when youre selling anything. in the end they shut up and you carry on. its just business practice.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 14, 2011)

Folmann @ Fri Oct 14 said:


> You are right. I will shut up now.



Me too.


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## Folmann (Oct 14, 2011)

But I just need to make one more statement ... I ... ~o)


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## Diffusor (Oct 14, 2011)

What the hell....I start a thread and I come back to s shitstorm. I got to clean house..... 


Seriously, "phrases" could me different things. If it's anything like the poly sustain phrases in Requiem it will be awesome. You can totally "play" those phrases in real time. But, this "product" is in the vaporware category right not and we just don't know much.


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## RiffWraith (Oct 14, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Sat Oct 15 said:


> RiffWraith @ Fri Oct 14 said:
> 
> 
> > midphase @ Sat Oct 15 said:
> ...



Eh, I was just exaggerating.  And I certainly didn't mean _everyone._


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## RiffWraith (Oct 14, 2011)

Diffusor @ Sat Oct 15 said:


> If it's anything like the poly sustain phrases in Requiem it will be awesome.



That's a good point.

Hey Troels - are the phrases anything like the ones in Req, where you can start with one phrase, interject another and yet end with another? If the answer is yes, you now have the ability to build your own phrases from the pre-recorded phrases, and then the possibilites for customizations and unique phrases are nearly limitless, thereby rendering 90% of this thread's discussion moot.

Cheers.


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## P.T. (Oct 14, 2011)

RiffWraith @ Fri Oct 14 said:


> Diffusor @ Sat Oct 15 said:
> 
> 
> > If it's anything like the poly sustain phrases in Requiem it will be awesome.
> ...



But, if you could do this, would you lose the benefit of the phrases, which is the connectedness of the note transitions?


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 14, 2011)

P.T. @ Sat Oct 15 said:


> RiffWraith @ Fri Oct 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Hey Troels - are the phrases anything like the ones in Req, where you can start with one phrase, interject another and yet end with another? If the answer is yes, you now have the ability to build your own phrases from the pre-recorded phrases, and then the possibilites for customizations and unique phrases are nearly limitless, thereby rendering 90% of this thread's discussion moot.
> ...



Quite - the selling point of those excellent demos.

And that's how these threads happen I guess. Someone says something such as "any problems with the library are the person's own shortcomings", or (paraphrase) "anyone who has issues with phrases is a Luddite" or "you can do anything with Melodyne" or "it's exactly the same as OSR" or "it's just workflow", and it's hard not to point out the obvious flaws in the logic. But then you (well, I anyway) wind up looking like I'm a spammer, or so it seems, especially since the points you make never get addressed and even though you still praise the library and the developer to the skies, so it all ends up going round in a big dumb circle. Sheesh.

Still very strongly don't like the bullying though.


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## KingIdiot (Oct 15, 2011)




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## Rob (Oct 15, 2011)

very sad... why people get insulted or banned for stating their opinions? Why mr Folmann didn't get banned? The atmosphere here is very close to the declining ns forum...


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## RiffWraith (Oct 15, 2011)

Rob @ Sat Oct 15 said:


> very sad... why people get insulted or banned for stating their opinions? Why mr Folmann didn't get banned? The atmosphere here is very close to the declining ns forum...



Huh? Who got banned?


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## RiffWraith (Oct 15, 2011)

P.T. @ Sat Oct 15 said:


> But, if you could do this, would you lose the benefit of the phrases, which is the connectedness of the note transitions?



The short answer is no - not if it is programmed properly. That's why I brought Req into the convo - if the violin lib is programmed that way, and if you _use it correctly_, one phrase will morph seamlessly into the next.

Cheers.


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## Rob (Oct 15, 2011)

> Huh? Who got banned?



Jay Asher



Folmann @ 14th October 2011 said:


> Jay was banned from this thread Noise - cause of his conflict of interest....


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 15, 2011)

RiffWraith @ Sat Oct 15 said:


> P.T. @ Sat Oct 15 said:
> 
> 
> > But, if you could do this, would you lose the benefit of the phrases, which is the connectedness of the note transitions?
> ...



Damn my foolishness in replying, but the basic point doesn't change - the phrases themselves are still phrases, no matter how nicely they're glued. And if you change WITHIN the phrases, you fall foul of Riff's point.


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## mpalenik (Oct 15, 2011)

I think what might be helpful, and maybe just generally a good idea for a product like this, would be if on the product page with the demos, Troels posted a video of the midi/session used to make one demo, maybe showing the modwheel values, so we can see exactly where phrases are being triggered, where multisamples are being used, and how the modwheel (or whatever the controller is) allows you to manipulate/switch between phrases.

Does anyone have any of the forgotten voices stuff? I considered buying the first one when it came out and then decided not to, but I would imagine that it's similar to this is some respects.


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## Udo (Oct 15, 2011)

RiffWraith @ Sun Oct 16 said:


> Rob @ Sat Oct 15 said:
> 
> 
> > very sad... why people get insulted or banned for stating their opinions? Why mr Folmann didn't get banned? The atmosphere here is very close to the declining ns forum...
> ...



Troels said this (also note his reference to Guy/noiseboyuk):



Folmann @ Sat Oct 15 said:


> Jay was banned from this thread Noise - cause of his conflict of interest. So apparently I am not the only one who shared that opinion.
> 
> But I have no issues stating that your excessive need to repeat the same opinion is spam to me.
> 
> Your next reply will be a testament to this.


This thread is not a commercial announcement, wasn't started by Troels/8io and is about a vapourware product so far, i.e. "conflict of interest" doesn't apply here (and Troels' "conflict" is at least as great as Jay's).

AND, IF anybody needed to be locked out of this thread it would be Troels, because of his pathetic behaviour here (makes me wonder if the Tonehammer split up had something to do with his personality).

I'd like to see an OFFICIAL STATEMENT why Jay was locked out of this thread.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 15, 2011)

No one buy this library, please! It's compositional heresy!!!






+ I want to be the first one to use it on soundtracks.


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## MichaelJM (Oct 15, 2011)

EastWest Lurker said:


> _Personally_, I would not use this kind of library but there clearly is a demand for it with the crowd that prioritizes "as real as possible".
> ...
> Every one of us has to make choices about how much we are willing to use phrases, loops, pre-baked sections etc. to get libraries and V.I.s to sound more "real." I don't condemn anyone choices but for me the answer is "very little"....
> 
> ...


+1
Oh I know it's not ok for you to say these things Jay, but from what I can see, it's totally cool for me to agree with them. So I will.

Jay, I suppose I can fault you for making a remark about Folmann's humility. That's when this all began. Then again, Troels, you chose to accuse Jay of trolling and trash talking, rather than defend your humility.

From what I can tell Troels, you had a problem with Jay commenting about an 8Dio product due to his conflict of interest. You know, that's fine. You can have the opinion that Jay shouldn't be allowed to post about anything other than East West products. However, that doesn't make the way you conducted yourself in this public thread okay with me. I don't buy many products, so I'm careful about where I spend my money. I'll be supporting other developers now.


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## Edward_Martin (Oct 15, 2011)

This is my first post on this forum, which I was told was a good place to get your toes wet in the world of virtual instruments/composing, and have followed for the last few weeks. For the most part I have enjoyed the vibe of the community and am grateful for the few pointers I have gathered along the way, as well as the heads up on new products.

That being said, this kind of behavior coming from professionals is absurd, to say the least. On one end you have one guy expressing HIS personal opinion as to how he feels about phrases. That's all good...right? Considering this is an open discussion and not an official product announcement. On the other, you have the owner of a company that even has an ad on the front page behaving in a fashion that is reminiscent of schoolyard bullying and name calling. Jay Asser, really? From a self professed genius, I must say, not impressed.

He even goes so far as jokingly comparing him to excrement, and perhaps not him specifically but anyone who happens to disagree with him.

Also, the whole bit about the throwing yourself off a skyscraper, is likewise in bad taste if not borderline mental. Not sure if anyone got the same vibe I did from that little comment, but it seemed to me like he was implying the "Nay Sayers" go jump off a building.

Update: Well a friend corrected me on what was actually meant by the whole building analogy, I obviously wasn't the first to misconstrue the comment. Which he says actually means, waiting for a perfect solo library is a leap of faith. Thanks to my friend for clarifying this for me, it took a while for me to understand...He is a genius after all. Rather than edit my post, I will admit that I was wrong on that account, which mostly leaves my opinion of this fiasco unchanged. So my bad in that regard to Troels.

What I also find amusing and difficult to swallow is that two composers and likewise business owners whom I HAD a lot of respect for also, against better judgment, joined the fray, taking sides in this circus, and basically telling those that said they don't see the use in a phrase library (who are entitled to their opinions and views), that its because they aren't any good as composers. And if I recall these two folks are guilty of crashing an official product announcement themselves, which makes it worse considering this is again, an open discussion. Hypocrisy and egotism at its worst.

As far as I can tell, this Jay Asher person got banned, not for his affiliation, but for his opinion, as I may or may not be after this post. And to answer the question the other poster posed, as to why Troel himself wasn't banned. All I can say is that as I pointed out earlier, his company sits on the front page, whether you have to pay to be there or be in the "in" with the vi team or simply request it, I don't know, but I will leave you to draw your own conclusions, as I have. Seeing how disproportionate the justice is laid out on this forum.

Oh, and I guess I will say something with regards to what this thread was about. I like phrases, don't see any problem with them, I am a newbie and I will use whatever I can get my hands on to take my music to the next level, maybe once I am better (which will be a few years) I wont rely on them as much, who knows. But all I know is that I certainly wont be getting anymore 8dio products...all this has left a very sour taste in my mouth.

PEACE


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## muziksculp (Oct 15, 2011)

ysnyvz @ Mon Oct 10 said:


> Diffusor @ Mon Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > If I had to choose I would choose performance and articulations over multiple mics. You can make the Silent Stage violin to sound how you want using convolution and signal processing.
> ...



+1000

The reflections are part of the instruments sound, recording an instrument that produces beautiful sounds/timbres in a dead space is a NOT a good thing ! 

I have been making this statement for years now, and VSL development seem to totally disagree with this very important fact ! Even instrument makers, let's say a Stradivarius model Violin, will construct/design the instrument to sound it's optimal in a lively space, NOT in a closet :mrgreen: The Physical part of the instrument is designed to interact with the sonic reflections of the space. They are not two dimensions that you want to disconnect, and then re-connect again (Artificially). 

Once the magic is taken away via a dead space, it's not recoverable via artificial means, maybe some things, but not the whole timbre that really gives the instrument it's unique timbre and air when it is performed to please our ears. The beautiful timbre of strings carries a lot of emotion in a musical sense, once that timbre is gone, so is the emotional component.

Sorry, but had to spit this out o/~


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## Nick Phoenix (Oct 15, 2011)

My experience is that close mixing in a smaller space is OK if you capture a more complete picture of the instrument with multiple mics. the sound coming from a string instrument comes from all directions and the rear or top sound is different from the front. capture all without phasing and it will take to reverrb fairly well.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 15, 2011)

Edward_Martin @ 15/10/2011 said:


> As far as I can tell, this Jay Asher person got banned, not for his affiliation, but for his opinion, as I may or may not be after this post.



Exactly: As far as *you* can tell... it's not wise, young grasshopper, to come to conclusions without being privy to the inner workings of a forum.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 15, 2011)

mpalenik @ Sat Oct 15 said:


> I think what might be helpful, and maybe just generally a good idea for a product like this, would be if on the product page with the demos, Troels posted a video of the midi/session used to make one demo, maybe showing the modwheel values, so we can see exactly where phrases are being triggered, where multisamples are being used, and how the modwheel (or whatever the controller is) allows you to manipulate/switch between phrases.
> 
> Does anyone have any of the forgotten voices stuff? I considered buying the first one when it came out and then decided not to, but I would imagine that it's similar to this is some respects.



I have one, but forget the name...I think it's maybe Barbary? I don't use it often, but occasionally it's really helpful for something emotive and short where I'd rather not call in a female vocalist for something atmospheric.

I especially like some of the hushed whispering. That's a nice effect to throw into things.


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## Udo (Oct 15, 2011)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sun Oct 16 said:


> Edward_Martin @ 15/10/2011 said:
> 
> 
> > As far as I can tell, this Jay Asher person got banned, not for his affiliation, but for his opinion, as I may or may not be after this post.
> ...


Ned, you're a moderator; why was Jay banned? Was he actually banned or just locked out of this thread?

EDIT: he was locked out of the thread.


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## Edward_Martin (Oct 15, 2011)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Oct 15 said:


> Edward_Martin @ 15/10/2011 said:
> 
> 
> > As far as I can tell, this Jay Asher person got banned, not for his affiliation, but for his opinion, as I may or may not be after this post.
> ...



Yup, I was very careful with my wording, as far as "I" can tell, which effectively makes everything I said my opinion/views/etc., but hey, your a mod here, does that imply he was banned for his affiliation after all? I don't recall him ever making any comments intended to dissuade anyone from buying this future product, nor do I recall him pushing any EW gear. Not privy at all, wise sensei, please enlighten us on what actually happened here.


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## burp182 (Oct 15, 2011)

Gee, I wonder how good this new product is?

Oh, right, it DOESN'T EXIST YET.

An awful lot of upset over something that we have no real idea how it works or how it sounds, past one little lovely excerpt. Might be a good idea to wait till the mists clear a little. Good products don't always sound like the best ideas. A crippled little weak-kneed computer with no keyboard and no HD that's too big to fit in your pocket and has no protection when you stuff it in a bag? No USB ports? No card slots? Sounds like a loser.
And yet, the iPad has done pretty well...

Just sayin'......


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## Edward_Martin (Oct 15, 2011)

burp182 @ Sat Oct 15 said:


> Gee, I wonder how good this new product is?
> 
> Oh, right, it DOESN'T EXIST YET.
> 
> An awful lot of upset over something that we have no real idea how it works or how it sounds, past one little lovely excerpt.



I agree, the little excerpts do sound good, and I was excited up until things got infantile. I understand why some may see phrases as limiting, sure...personally, if done right, this could be great, phrases are used very effectively in OSR, as a great example. Also, that new string FX library being promoted on the front page alongside others also has a neat concept, that uses phrases but gives you a way to customize them. There was no need for things having to have come to this point. But, I mean, why flog a dead horse?


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 15, 2011)

Edward_Martin @ 15/10/2011 said:


> Not privy at all, wise sensei, please enlighten us on what actually happened here.



The weekend is a very good time to
Practice patience.
Especially when it comes to customer support.

Also, a Mod is sometimes just a Mod. We all answer to a Higher Power.
~o)


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## Edward_Martin (Oct 15, 2011)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Oct 15 said:


> Edward_Martin @ 15/10/2011 said:
> 
> 
> > Not privy at all, wise sensei, please enlighten us on what actually happened here.
> ...



Fair enough. o-[][]-o


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## Frederick Russ (Oct 15, 2011)

I actually have respect for both Jay and Troels, their abilities, knowledge and accomplishments. While the contents of our private conversations are confidential, whenever under advisement I discover potential legal risks either implied or suggested brought to my attention, these are outside the context and scope of the forum and its initiatives. It is not my intention to reveal the contents of personal discussions I've had with both parties but it is my job as an administrator to circumvent any involvement with potentially explosive disputes which would have been served better in a private arena rather than a public one. On the outside this may appear unfair or counterproductive and I sincerely apologize for that. 

I suppose everyone is entitled to an off day - this thread is no exception. Jay was kicked from the discussion but not banned from the forum. The thread was about Troels' upcoming product. Regardless of how it was initially explained, this is not to take sides either way but as a protective measure to offer time to examine options more fully. 

I sincerely apologize for not being clear about this from the beginning, my bad. We have tried to maintain an open forum and the self-policing model works only half of the time - the rest of the time we're left with old school choices and mistakes will be made along the way by more than a few. 

- Frederick

Thread is locked.


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