# Thinking about writing some Library music



## jononotbono (Jan 21, 2017)

I'm thinking about writing some music with the intention of it being for Library use. I've never submitted anything to a library and just wondering if anyone could give any advice before I do? Things people should and shouldn't do? How Copyright/royalties work? Is collaborating with other composers a usual and good thing? I have no idea about this stuff yet. 

Rock music/Rock Guitar is probably my forte so I also wonder if anyone has any library recommendations? Not limited to Rock music though as I write all sorts of stuff.

Thanks

Jono


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## Richard Wilkinson (Jan 21, 2017)

Listen to what the libraries are doing, and see if they have a gap. That's a good starting point. Check audionetwork, extreme, West one. You need to be as good as the stuff they already have. Ideally better.
Co-writing is fine, and the royalty split would be whatever you agree with the other writers. Libraries tend to take the publishing share (this can vary) and of course you're obliged to receive the writer's share of any use.
If you're a rock guy and that's your strength, run with it. Versatility is great but libraries find it far easier to remember and get projects for writers who do a particular thing well. If you go all out with the guitar based stuff, you're more likely to get recognised for that and asked to work on those gigs.

Oh - and I find it's helpful to call before you email. Get someone's name, and find out the best way to get your music to them. SoundCloud? And if so do they want to hear everything or just your two best tracks? Full tracks or are excerpts fine? Etc etc


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## Valérie_D (Jan 21, 2017)

The Business of Music Licensing by Emmet Cooke, pdf.


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## chillbot (Jan 21, 2017)

I can't help you with the business or getting in the door, sorry.

In really general terms I would say that selling your tracks comes down to:

80% production
20% structure

Getting your tracks placed in a show comes down to:

20% production
80% structure

Not much point in selling your track or getting it into a library if it never gets used or placed anywhere. I think not enough people ever talk about structure. What I mean is the length of the track, that it is easily editable, that it has a very simple and common (almost "guessable") format such as ABAB or AABA, that it builds from start to finish with a nice ending and possibly a couple of short breaks here and there, that it stays in the same key, that it works well under dialogue or if it has a lead instrument that you only include that instrument in the full mix.

Anyway if you haven't written for library before I would focus on the structure of your tracks. I could go deeper but maybe you already know all of this.


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## jononotbono (Jan 21, 2017)

OK thanks! I've written a few tracks with the intention of being Library music (as part of an MA Assignment) but not submitted them anywhere. I thought I could do with much more practise first. Both with writing and production. As for Structure, I'm aware that Edit points are essential for Editors that will inevitable cutt the tracks up and combine them with other tracks from other people. So perhaps no modulation either. I also think some Libraries expect Stems (which is good in my opinion) instead of just a Stereo Mixdown.

Yeah, I don't see the point in selling music if it isn't going to be used but isn't that the gamble of Library music? So the bottom line is write good music that will get used? Easier said than done obviously but dross is never going to be used so I have to ask, why would a Library buy rubbish stuff from anyone? And if this happens, I think I would like to aim for a library that's on the top shelf, for example, Universal. Anything that is PRS and MCPS registered (I live in the UK)? This then probably means writing and production needs to be both 100%? Sorry, I'm just thinking out loud.


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## mac (Jan 21, 2017)

A couple of the courses over at Evenant might be worth your while.


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## jononotbono (Jan 21, 2017)

mac said:


> A couple of the courses over at Evenant might be worth your while.



I'll speak to Thinkspace about more Library information after the weekend. Just thought I'd talk to the VI Control Community about such things as I'm sure many here work in this business!


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## asherpope (Jan 21, 2017)

Whenever I'm doing rock related library music I always check out whatever Extreme has put out recently. They seem to be the gold standard in that genre.


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## mac (Jan 22, 2017)

asherpope said:


> Whenever I'm doing rock related library music I always check out whatever Extreme has put out recently. They seem to be the gold standard in that genre.



I _think_ you're joking?!


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## jononotbono (Jan 22, 2017)

mac said:


> I _think_ you're joking?!



What do you think is the Gold Standard of Library for Rock Music?


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## mac (Jan 22, 2017)

@jononotbono Oh wait, I thought @asherpope was referring to Extreme the band, as in, 'more than words'


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## jononotbono (Jan 22, 2017)

Why are you laughing? They are. Philistine.


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## mac (Jan 22, 2017)

I wanted to be Nuno Bettencourt when I was younger, fact. I even ordered a Washburn N4.


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## Smikes77 (Jan 22, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> Why are you laughing? They are. Philistine.



NEARLY as good as Poison.


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## jononotbono (Jan 22, 2017)

True. Let's get a tribute band together and tour OAP homes.

See how easy it is to derail your own thread! Masterful work everyone.


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## Maximvs (Jan 22, 2017)

Thanks Jononotbono for starting this conversation about library music... I have also been contemplating this part of the music business. As someone else already pointed out, this may be a good place to start acquiring some great knowledge: http://courses.evenant.com/p/the-business-of-music-licensing

All the very best... Max


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## jononotbono (Jan 22, 2017)

Massimo said:


> Thanks Jononotbono for starting this conversation about library music... I have also been contemplating this part of the music business. As someone else already pointed out, this may be a good place to start acquiring some great knowledge: http://courses.evenant.com/p/the-business-of-music-licensing
> 
> All the very best... Max


I appreciate the link but I'm studying an MA with Thinkspace and there's a whole Business course coming out soon and when they are in the office tomorrow I'll just call them for some advice. I can't afford to keep buying courses from everyone. Although I hope they are of use to someone!


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## dannymc (Jan 22, 2017)

> Yeah, I don't see the point in selling music if it isn't going to be used but isn't that the gamble of Library music? So the bottom line is write good music that will get used? Easier said than done obviously but dross is never going to be used so I have to ask, why would a Library buy rubbish stuff from anyone? And if this happens, I think I would like to aim for a library that's on the top shelf, for example, Universal. Anything that is PRS and MCPS registered (I live in the UK)? This then probably means writing and production needs to be both 100%? Sorry, I'm just thinking out loud.



to be honest i don't really agree with the advice of taking a listen to extreme, universal etc to hear the standard. the reality is you are going to be nowhere near as good as those guys yet, since they have years maybe even decades under their belt. it may act to dishearten you rather than inspire you. i think it should be seen like trying to get into any career and that is to start at the bottom of the ladder and work your way up. unless you're mozart that's probably been the way for all composers. even Hans Zimmer had to start somewhere and it wasn't on A list hollywood movies. for me it felt better to start at the lower level libraries and just get a feel for the industry. i'm still in the learning stage into my second year of starting library work but i don't even bother listening to those high end libraries until i get good enough as a composer to be capable of competing with those guys. all that structure stuff etc will come in time as you write more and more but don't let structure get in the way of your own creativity otherwise you might not discover your own voice. anyway that has just been my approach everyone has to find their own road.

Danny


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## jononotbono (Jan 22, 2017)

Actually, knowing what is out there and what is top of the game is very important to me. How else do you have a gauge to work to, to get better? And how else do you know what's already been done, what other people are doing, what to avoid, what to embrace. Absorbing everything going on is essential (cue some Batman Begins reference of minding one's surroundings). In my opinion of course. It's the same reason why people use amazing pieces and songs when mixing music to reference their mixes to when learning how to mix music.

Obviously I agree with you in regards to it taking a long time to get experience and learning structure. Luckily I've been playing Rock Guitar for a while now and I'm going to look into how I can utilise that 25+ years of experience into various musical avenues that isn't solely focused on playing gigs and writing songs. Each to their own though of course man!


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## jononotbono (Jan 22, 2017)

I've decided to buy the Evenant Business course. It's only $37. Curiousity is slowly irritating me.


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## InLight-Tone (Jan 22, 2017)

I think you should start with easier libraries to learn the ropes like AudioJungle and see if you can cut through the noise there and make a splash. It's easy to see what is popular and trending and the composers there are getting better by the minute. 

The lessons learned will be how to put out a decent track both compositionally, and production wise in a fairly short amount of time and being persistent and consistent (my two weakest points).

Then when you've got into the groove of churning out decent quality ideas fairly quickly, go take on Extreme where the bar is super high on every level...

I bought the Evenant course too and found it a bit lacking though love their other two course Cinematic Music and Trailer Music. A short subscription to Music Library Report will teach you a lot about library work and you can ask questions and get feedback on each library as well...


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## Baron Greuner (Jan 22, 2017)

chillbot said:


> Not much point in selling your track or getting it into a library if it never gets used or placed anywhere. I think not enough people ever talk about structure. What I mean is the length of the track, that it is easily editable, that it has a very simple and common (almost "guessable") format such as ABAB or AABA, that it builds from start to finish with a nice ending and possibly a couple of short breaks here and there, that it stays in the same key, that it works well under dialogue or if it has a lead instrument that you only include that instrument in the full mix.
> 
> Anyway if you haven't written for library before I would focus on the structure of your tracks. I could go deeper but maybe you already know all of this.



^^^^ This! Tablets of Stone.

I would go on to say it's difficult to be original. Libraries tend to like things that sound like things that they've heard before, especially if those things have worked.

You get a lot of copying. Not copying the notes. But copying the style, the genre etc.

I just put up a library track I'm working on for a kind of ambient, documentary type style. Always think in terms of 30 second and 60 second edits, with stingers 10 to 20 seconds etc etc.

Get some voice overs. Try putting the voice over to your track and see if it works. Frequencies ect.
I nearly always think in terms of albums and not single tracks.


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## Baron Greuner (Jan 22, 2017)

asherpope said:


> Whenever I'm doing rock related library music I always check out whatever Extreme has put out recently. They seem to be the gold standard in that genre.



Hahahahaha!

Yes right.


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## jononotbono (Jan 22, 2017)

We're not talking about the band again are we?


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## devonmyles (Jan 22, 2017)

chillbot said:


> I can't help you with the business or getting in the door, sorry.
> 
> In really general terms I would say that selling your tracks comes down to:
> 
> ...



Yes, very much this.


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## mac (Jan 22, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> We're not talking about the band again are we?


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## asherpope (Jan 24, 2017)

Well I didn't anticipate that reaction to my library inspiration recommendation! Who doesn't get down to 'More Than Words' when they really wanna rock out?!


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## mOKa (Mar 1, 2017)

Just curious. Did you @jononotbono make any progress or expierence you can share


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## jononotbono (Mar 1, 2017)

mOKa said:


> Just curious. Did you @jononotbono make any progress or expierence you can share




Funny enough, since starting this thread I actually sent a track off to someone I met not so long ago who runs a few different libraries and he liked the track so he has offered me an album. Really excited about it but can't really say anything more until I deliver it for the end of May. I've got so many deadlines right now that I just have to embrace the pressure.


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## muk (Mar 2, 2017)

You write a full album in a month, on the side? Man, I need to speed up my production.


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## mOKa (Mar 3, 2017)

That sounds pretty cool. Congrats ! I am looking forward to hear more soon


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## mac (Mar 3, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> Funny enough, since starting this thread I actually sent a track off to someone I met not so long ago who runs a few different libraries and he liked the track so he has offered me an album. Really excited about it but can't really say anything more until I deliver it for the end of May. I've got so many deadlines right now that I just have to embrace the pressure.



Good man, making things happen


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## mOKa (Mar 3, 2017)

Can anyone recommend a trailer music library, where it would make sense as an "unknown" composer to send in some music.


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## Jaap (Mar 3, 2017)

mOKa said:


> Can anyone recommend a trailer music library, where it would make sense as an "unknown" composer to send in some music.



Any library that is open for submissions is worth sending music to if you think you are a match and that you are up to par on delivering the quality that you can hear on their websites. They are often not looking for big names, but good and useable music.


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## dannymc (Mar 3, 2017)

> Any library that is open for submissions is worth sending music to if you think you are a match and that you are up to par on delivering the quality that you can hear on their websites. They are often not looking for big names, but good and useable music.



yeah and i think the important thing is knowing and accepting how to be really honest with yourself. if you're stuff isn't matching or better than what you are hearing on their websites or on youtube etc don't send anything to them. it will just be wasting their time and yours. instead focus on improving your craft to the point where everyone else especially trailer composers are saying "man you should really get that track off to a trailer library." 

every time i make a new track i feel its way better than the last which tells me i still have loads to learn and a bit to go before i can compete at those levels. 

Danny


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## NoamL (Mar 3, 2017)

chillbot said:


> I can't help you with the business or getting in the door, sorry.
> 
> In really general terms I would say that selling your tracks comes down to:
> 
> ...



Yep this is so applicable. I do music editing on a TV show and there are certain cues we reuse over and over, stretching them from as long as a minute to as short as 12 seconds... by doing this kind of surgery day after day I really came to appreciate how a cue could be written in a "modular" way. It's not enough to write ABCDEF in the same key, but also to think about if your cue works when you jump cut ABDF, or ABCF or ACEF etc. And of course when providing stems, the main goal should be to maximize the edit opportunities. Anything that rings out across an obvious edit point, such as a cymbal wash, absolutely needs to be isolated away from the rhythm elements. This is more important than grouping the instruments by family.

But... let's be real... the thing that sets most library writers apart from 90% of the music people post on VI-C is that they have impeccable production chops.



Like... this track is dead simple. What makes it work is every sound has been crafted and molded and layered to sit with everything else.

Think about the placements these songs actually get, if you're fantastically successfull... usually 15 second TV spots or maybe a 30 second cameo in a movie trailer that's been stitched together from multiple trailer tracks. 

All of this means the horizontal is less important than the vertical. If 5 seconds taken from somewhere in your track isn't great, then your track isn't great...


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## chillbot (Mar 3, 2017)

NoamL said:


> Anything that rings out across an obvious edit point, such as a cymbal wash, absolutely needs to be isolated away from the rhythm elements.


Totally agree the only time I will ever use a cymbal swell is the last hit. I like reverse hits into section transitions that have zero ringout for a clean edit but of course I would always include a mix without these and I also find that editors get really happy if I include *just* the hits and transitions so that they can use them anywhere they want.

On a somewhat-related note a huge pet peeve for me is working with drum loops that almost always include a crash cymbal on beat one that rings out for a measure or two making editing so hard. If you want to include a crash cymbal it should always be as a separate element for the same reason... so easy to add as needed, makes no sense to bake it in as part of a loop.


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## mOKa (Mar 3, 2017)

Thanks @Jaap. Well, then I only need get a lot better and start knocking on doors. Easy 
Very cool to hear a prof. editor perspective @NoamL . Less cyms, that I can do too


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## Puzzlefactory (Mar 4, 2017)

Interesting thread. Was thinking of uploading some trailer tracks to AudioJungle. 

What are people's experiences with it?


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## Jaap (Mar 4, 2017)

Puzzlefactory said:


> Interesting thread. Was thinking of uploading some trailer tracks to AudioJungle.
> 
> What are people's experiences with it?



You can find some good responses here in this thread about peoples experience with it (some good, some bad). Topic is not only about AJ though, but some nice info there anyway.
My personal experience is good though I am not on the site anymore. A few years ago I started there and made some decent money which allowed me to get some balls rolling (not only AJ, but also Pond5, Productiontrax and the likes).
I stopped doing that and focussing on more exclusive work, but it can be a good place to start. Using an alias can be handy. If you want to step up to bigger libraries in the future they might dislike that you are/were active on those sites.

Edit: and now with link...
http://vi-control.net/community/threads/your-compositions-on-stock-music-sites.55785/


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## ghostnote (Mar 4, 2017)

Puzzlefactory said:


> Interesting thread. Was thinking of uploading some trailer tracks to AudioJungle.



Well, if you like to give away your works for 9$, go for it.... Personally I'd just upload b stuff there, because many customers over there - no matter how small or big - will go for the lowest license. It's a slap in the face for everyone who calls himself a composer.

A shame.


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## calebfaith (Mar 4, 2017)

ghostnote said:


> Well, if you like to give away your works for 9$, go for it.... Personally I'd just upload b stuff there, because many customers over there - no matter how small or big - will go for the lowest license. It's a slap in the face for everyone who calls himself a composer.
> 
> A shame.



Where would you suggest composers go?


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## ghostnote (Mar 4, 2017)

calebfaith said:


> Where would you suggest composers go?


If you can write corporate tracks for the masses, go for audiojungle. There's also nothing wrong in uploading b stuff there, but if you're really pursuing a career in library music, then there are plenty of alternatives out there.


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## InLight-Tone (Mar 4, 2017)

Puzzlefactory said:


> Interesting thread. Was thinking of uploading some trailer tracks to AudioJungle.
> 
> What are people's experiences with it?


It's very competitive there now. I've only sold a small mount there but some are making huge amounts of money. They are also getting picky about what they approve whereas in the past almost anything uploaded was approved...


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## Puzzlefactory (Mar 5, 2017)

ghostnote said:


> Well, if you like to give away your works for 9$, go for it.... Personally I'd just upload b stuff there, because many customers over there - no matter how small or big - will go for the lowest license. It's a slap in the face for everyone who calls himself a composer.
> 
> A shame.




Well, i'm just getting started. Not sure my tracks are up to the standards of sending to actual Trailer companies just yet, but at the same time i want to do something with them. Any extra income/exposure is welcome right now.


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## InLight-Tone (Mar 5, 2017)

Puzzlefactory said:


> Well, i'm just getting started. Not sure my tracks are up to the standards of sending to actual Trailer companies just yet, but at the same time i want to do something with them. Any extra income/exposure is welcome right now.


AJ is a great place to get some experience in my opinion. Also keep in mind that there you can sell multiple copies some have sold a track 1000's of times. With other libraries you don't see that kind of repeat sale action, so though you get $9 per sale, if you're exclusive, it can really add up...


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