# Piano MIDI to audio service



## CGR (Feb 15, 2017)

I'm proud to announce a new professional online piano MIDI to audio service. 
Find out how it works, and preview demos of the collection of 10 pianos at:
http://www.pianoproducer.com


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## desert (Feb 15, 2017)

Hey, this is pretty cool! How do you have so many pianos readily available?


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## neblix (Feb 15, 2017)

I'm confused. Is this paying for a live performance of piano? Or is it paying a premium to have the MIDI rendered through a VI? Or, is it sending the MIDI to a self-playing piano and recording the live sound?


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## CGR (Feb 15, 2017)

desert said:


> Hey, this is pretty cool! How do you have so many pianos readily available?


Thanks for checking it out Desert. It would be amazing to have all these pianos as acoustic pianos with MIDI systems fitted, but I'm afraid that is not within my reach as present! The 10 pianos I use for the pianoproducer service are a select choice of software pianos I have bought over the years, optimised with my custom settings. The idea is to offer producers and musicians a range of piano tones and characters, and to save them time and money searching for the sound/tone they are after for their recordings. The idea grew out of my costly experience of being frustrated in purchasing numerous software/digital pianos over the years, only to be disappointed with certain aspects as a solo recording, or how it fitted into a track. The pianoproducer service aims to shortcut this process in finding the ideal piano sound for your productions.


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## CGR (Feb 15, 2017)

neblix said:


> I'm confused. Is this paying for a live performance of piano? Or is it paying a premium to have the MIDI rendered through a VI? Or, is it sending the MIDI to a self-playing piano and recording the live sound?


Hi Neblix,
The service is purely VI based. Although there is another online MIDI to audio service using a self-playing acoustic piano, my thought was that this confines you to one particular piano sound (a medium sized Yamaha grand), and although a piano tone can be drastically altered with EQ, compression etc. a Yamaha Grand is never going to sound like a Bosendorfer, a 90 year old vintage grand piano or a character filled upright. Also, pianoproducer offers the service at a much lower price point than the self-playing acoustic piano service.


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## neblix (Feb 15, 2017)

I guess I'm just not understanding then; why would why I pay for someone to render something through a VI when I could just use my own VI's (and buy more if they aren't sufficient)?

I'm not asking this to be critical, I genuinely don't understand and would like to see the appeal of the service. I'm sure there is a good reason!

I could see if it was something where you alter the MIDI performance to make it more natural and sound better but it sounds like you're simply running my MIDI file through a VI, when I could simply... run it through myself?

Again, i don't mean to be critical, I am curious what the appeal is.


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## desert (Feb 15, 2017)

CGR said:


> Thanks for checking it out Desert. It would be amazing to have all these pianos as acoustic pianos with MIDI systems fitted, but I'm afraid that is not within my reach as present! The 10 pianos I use for the pianoproducer service are a select choice of software pianos I have bought over the years, optimised with my custom settings. The idea is to offer producers and musicians a range of piano tones and characters, and to save them time and money searching for the sound/tone they are after for their recordings. The idea grew out of my costly experience of being frustrated in purchasing numerous software/digital pianos over the years, only to be disappointed with certain aspects as a solo recording, or how it fitted into a track. The pianoproducer service aims to shortcut this process in finding the ideal piano sound for your productions.


Thanks for the explanation, I too was under the impression they were real pianos which is why I made my first comment haha


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## Polkasound (Feb 15, 2017)

I can see this being a valuable service for a small niche of people -- those whose studios are not yet in the DAW age. Perhaps they're still working with a MIDI sequencer and a stand-alone hard disk or tape-based recorder. This service gives them options instead of having to rely on their Roland Sound Canvas module for everything.

The only real downside is not knowing if the velocity curve of the chosen VI piano is going to mimic the velocity curve of the piano patch in the client's sound module.


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## QLee (Feb 15, 2017)

I'm just wondering how are you gonna deal with the license issue. Since your "clients" essentially are not really licensed to use those recordings. Those samples are licensed to you only. The only explanation I can think of is that those rendered performances are actully counted as your work. You just sell them back to your clients and give up all the rights? It seems like being on the edge of breaking single user agreement.


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## erica-grace (Feb 15, 2017)

I can see this as being useful to someone who doesn't really play all that well, or someone who only has only one or two pianos on hand that do not fit the current project.

In terms of the EULA, this should not be a problem. I am sure some developers would probably like to make it an issue, like, "both parties need to own a license", however,I feel that is not the case.


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## Polkasound (Feb 15, 2017)

This isn't my area of expertise, but I can't imagine the EULA would be affected, because the client would be receiving an audio recording made from a sample library, not the samples themselves. If a developer's EULA restricted the sale of audio recordings that used their virtual instrument, then artists who record with that instrument would never be allowed to wholesale their CDs to retailers, since the retailers would make a profit.

I could be wrong, but I always assumed the main purpose of a EULA was to say that you can play and record with the library to your heart's content, but you cannot distribute or resell the library itself or its samples.


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## CGR (Feb 15, 2017)

neblix said:


> I guess I'm just not understanding then; why would why I pay for someone to render something through a VI when I could just use my own VI's (and buy more if they aren't sufficient)?
> 
> I'm not asking this to be critical, I genuinely don't understand and would like to see the appeal of the service. I'm sure there is a good reason!
> 
> ...


Thanks for your interest Neblix. I understand your questioning as to why someone would use the pianoproducer service when they have their own piano VIs, but I've found that often attaining a particular piano tone or character is a time consuming and elusive pursuit, so I believe a service which lets you compare 10 distinct sounding pianos side by side would be valuable to producers and musicians (the Demo A's on the Pianos page are rendered using the identical MIDI file, for a direct comparison of how each of the piano responds to the dynamics of the playing).

I have spent many hours optimising and customising each of the 10 virtual pianos, including individual sets of custom processing, so the rendered audio files are certainly not 'out of the box' results. I also preview the supplied MIDI track before rendering it to audio, to ensure the most musical result. All audio files are supplied as dry and wet versions for added flexibility.

It is a niche service, but piano is my passion, and I'm enthusiastic about sharing my skills and achieving great results for people. If you have a project which contains a MIDI piano track, I'd be happy to process your MIDI file with a piano of your choice from each of the 3 categories, so you can assess how it may enhance or bring another flavour to your production.


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## CGR (Feb 15, 2017)

QLee said:


> I'm just wondering how are you gonna deal with the license issue. Since your "clients" essentially are not really licensed to use those recordings. Those samples are licensed to you only. The only explanation I can think of is that those rendered performances are actully counted as your work. You just sell them back to your clients and give up all the rights? It seems like being on the edge of breaking single user agreement.


Given that I'm not making the software I use available for use by a third party, I'm not in breach of any license agreements. It is not an automated conversion service, I am providing customised produced audio files, and not sharing the software I use to create those audio files.


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## CGR (Feb 15, 2017)

erica-grace said:


> I can see this as being useful to someone who doesn't really play all that well, or someone who only has only one or two pianos on hand that do not fit the current project.
> 
> In terms of the EULA, this should not be a problem. I am sure some developers would probably like to make it an issue, like, "both parties need to own a license", however,I feel that is not the case.


Thanks for your feedback Erica-Grace. Yes, I believe there are many people who don't want to go down the 'rabbit hole' of virtual pianos, and simply want a certain piano tone or character they may not be able to achieve.


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## CGR (Feb 15, 2017)

Polkasound said:


> This isn't my area of expertise, but I can't imagine the EULA would be affected, because the client would be receiving an audio recording made from a sample library, not the samples themselves. If a developer's EULA restricted the sale of audio recordings that used their virtual instrument, then artists who record with that instrument would never be allowed to wholesale their CDs to retailers, since the retailers would make a profit.
> 
> I could be wrong, but I always assumed the main purpose of a EULA was to say that you can play and record with the library to your heart's content, but you cannot distribute or resell the library itself or its samples.


You are correct Polkasound. I spent considerable time clarifying this before launching the site, and from all my research, (including the advice of the creator of one of the sampled pianos I own and use) I'm not in breach of my license agreements, given that I am producing completed audio tracks, and not sharing or giving access to the samples or software.

It's quite common for musicians and professional composers to collaborate on tracks or music projects, and for various components/instrument tracks to be worked on separately across a number of studios and DAWs. I see the pianoproducer service as being no different from this.


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## QLee (Feb 15, 2017)

CGR said:


> Given that I'm not making the software I use available for use by a third party, I'm not in breach of any license agreements. It is not an automated conversion service, I am providing customised produced audio files, and not sharing the software I use to create those audio files.


Thanks for the reply! Yes. I understand that as I tried to justify your action in my original post. First of all I wanna say that I'm not making any judgement here since I'm far from being knowledgeable to do that. I just couldn't helping thinking about this custom rendering service thing. Say I don't have the money to buy those fancy orchestral libraries. But my rich friend has them all. Then I can read upon the manuals, figure out the right ccs and keyswitchs, program my piece and sent him to render. Of course it's gonna sound like a half way through product but still way better than my GM sounds. If this is OK then maybe a job like midi interpreter/conductor is not bad(*this is not sarcasm). Other people can send in their piece(midi). I recruit my players(libraries), rehearse(program) and play(render) for them.


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## CGR (Feb 15, 2017)

Polkasound said:


> I can see this being a valuable service for a small niche of people -- those whose studios are not yet in the DAW age. Perhaps they're still working with a MIDI sequencer and a stand-alone hard disk or tape-based recorder. This service gives them options instead of having to rely on their Roland Sound Canvas module for everything.
> 
> The only real downside is not knowing if the velocity curve of the chosen VI piano is going to mimic the velocity curve of the piano patch in the client's sound module.


Thanks for your positive feedback. The scenario you described is the just one type of musician who could benefit from the pianoproducer service. The velocity response difference is a factor I've considered, and which I assess for each track. Clear communication, and my years of experience, enables me to achieve the desired result for the customer.


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## CGR (Feb 27, 2017)

I am offering a free trial of the piano producer service to the first 3 VI Control members to respond to this thread.

Have a piano MIDI file of yours (up to 5 minutes in length) professionally produced with your choice of 2 pianos from The Pianos page:

http://www.pianoproducer.com/the-pianos/

Simply express your interest here, and I will PM you with instructions.


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## CGR (Feb 27, 2017)

douggibson said:


> Free ?? !! Sure, I'll take you up on that. Don't kill yourself though, I'll send (if you pick me) you a say 2-3 files and
> just pick one that won't eat up too much of your time.


Thanks for your interest Doug. I'll PM you instructions soon.


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## mc_deli (Feb 28, 2017)

"5. I preview your MIDI file with your choice of piano, optimise it for playback, and render it as a professional quality audio file"

So, you listen to someone else's midi, do something to it, and then bounce... what does "optimise for playback" mean?


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## CGR (Feb 28, 2017)

mc_deli said:


> "5. I preview your MIDI file with your choice of piano, optimise it for playback, and render it as a professional quality audio file"
> 
> So, you listen to someone else's midi, do something to it, and then bounce... what does "optimise for playback" mean?


Thanks for your interest. Given the variation in keyboards people own and the resulting MIDI velocity responses, I will sometimes need to adjust dynamics and velocity settings within my DAW to achieve the most musical result. I realise that is a subjective thing, but I monitor the complete track and listen out for any obvious dynamic or pedalling issues before rendering the MIDI to a 24bit audio file. Also, I have optimised each virtual piano with my own custom settings and processing chain to achieve the best results from each.

If you want a better idea, take up the free trial offer I posted yesterday.


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## mc_deli (Feb 28, 2017)

This isn't for me. I have a million piano VIs, like most people on this forum, and the thought of paying someone else to draw pedal some sustain pedal curves, and 24bit, really? ...and you have changed some settings on your GUI? ...sorry but it seems like April 1st has come early.

I am a bit concerned as you don't seem to be joking. I hope you understand how very weird your offer and site appear...?

The name implies you are a pianist who would record a real piano from someone's midi effort... that would actually be interesting... if you were offering to re-arrange a part... stylise a part... something... but draw a few CCs, tweak a few knobs and bounce...

Actually I find this a bit moody as it looks like you are trying to mislead people by not clearly stating on your site that "The Pianos" of yours are VIs... apologies if this sounds harsh but it it does not read well to my eyes...


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## CGR (Feb 28, 2017)

Yeah you're right, that did come across as pretty harsh. Obviously the service is not for you, but from the positive feedback of others, I believe this niche service will be of use to some musicians and producers.

I don't appreciate your accusation that I'm trying to mislead people into thinking that I am using real acoustic pianos. In fact, a few seconds exploring the site makes this quite clear.

From the How it Works page:

_All tracks are provided as 24bit 44.1kHz WAV files in 2 versions: 
A. Dry (only the recorded ambience in the *sampled pianos*) – for you to process with your preferred audio plugins, reverbs etc. 
B. Customised, natural sounding reverb applied – suited to that particular piano_

From the About page:

_Based on decades of experience with acoustic and digital/sampled pianos, I have selected *10 premium sampled pianos from my studio collection*, each with my customised settings and processing, offering unique tones and colours suited to a vast range of music projects.
_
By the way, the site is also aimed at promoting my services as a session pianist and arranger (live in the studio and on line collaborations). Best wishes for your music making.


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## CGR (Feb 28, 2017)

Thanks for your contribution Douglas. I will be in touch.


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## mc_deli (Mar 1, 2017)

CGR said:


> Yeah you're right, that did come across as pretty harsh. Obviously the service is not for you, but from the positive feedback of others, I believe this niche service will be of use to some musicians and producers.
> 
> I don't appreciate your accusation that I'm trying to mislead people into thinking that I am using real acoustic pianos. In fact, a few seconds exploring the site makes this quite clear.



Really it's buried and blurry IMHO



CGR said:


> From the How it Works page:
> 
> _All tracks are provided as 24bit 44.1kHz WAV files in 2 versions:
> A. Dry (only the recorded ambience in the *sampled pianos*) – for you to process with your preferred audio plugins, reverbs etc.
> B. Customised, natural sounding reverb applied – suited to that particular piano_


This is not clear. This reads like only the reverb is from samples. If it's not misleading, it's poorly phrased.

Also, in the first part of the page you haven't quoted you say "Preview audio demos of the 10 sampled pianos". This is also unclear. You are not telling it straight. This could mean just the previews are samples.


CGR said:


> From the About page:
> 
> _Based on decades of experience with acoustic and digital/sampled pianos, I have selected *10 premium sampled pianos from my studio collection*, each with my customised settings and processing, offering unique tones and colours suited to a vast range of music projects._


You haven't connected these sampled pianos to the offer clearly on this page with this copy - and this could quite easily be read that you have sampled the pianos yourself.

On the "Pianos" page there is no mention of sampled pianos. And no mention of the libraries you are using. You do name ten different pianos/set ups. Perhaps you have accidentally left off describing the service and the sources of the piano sounds from this page - I can give you the benefit of the doubt.
_
_


CGR said:


> By the way, the site is also aimed at promoting my services as a session pianist and arranger (live in the studio and on line collaborations). Best wishes for your music making.


And also with you my brother.
Until then I am a copywriter by day and this has, well, yanked my chain


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## CGR (Mar 1, 2017)

mc_deli said:


> This is not clear. This reads like only the reverb is from samples. If it's not misleading, it's poorly phrased.
> 
> Also, in the first part of the page you haven't quoted you say "Preview audio demos of the 10 sampled pianos". This is also unclear. You are not telling it straight. This could mean just the previews are samples.
> 
> ...



Points noted. I've amended the How it Works page to read:
_2. Preview audio demos of the 10 sampled pianos from the collection on The Pianos page_

I also clarified the use of sampled pianos in the first line of The Pianos page:
_All Demo A audio samples have been created using the same MIDI file for a direct comparison of how each sampled piano responds to identical MIDI velocities and data.
_
So including the description on the About page, there a 3 separate instances stating the use of sampled pianos.

I intentionally didn't list the name of the sample libraries I'm using. For one, it's all about the results, not showcasing a shootout between libraries, and secondly, I've created my own custom settings with each of them, so they wouldn't sound the same if someone was to play their MIDI file with the same library on their system. If I get regular requests from people wanting to know which libraries I'm using, I'd consider passing that info on.


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## donbodin (Mar 1, 2017)

Interesting service Craig. Are these your own Piano VIs that you have sampled and developer yourself?

If not, I am wondering if using commercially available Pianos VIs as part of the service would be breaking the "no third party lend/transfer" clause usually in most commercial libraries licensing terms of service.

Not trying to pick a fight, just honestly curious.


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## CGR (Mar 1, 2017)

donbodin said:


> Interesting service Craig. Are these your own Piano VIs that you have sampled and developer yourself?
> 
> If not, I am wondering if using commercially available Pianos VIs as part of the service would be breaking the "no third party lend/transfer" clause usually in most commercial libraries licensing terms of service.
> 
> Not trying to pick a fight, just honestly curious.


Thanks for showing an interest Don. I am using commercially available sample libraries, although with extensive custom settings and optimisation I developed over the past 3 years, to achieve the best results. Your question re. licensing agreements was raised earlier in the thread (please refer to my responses at posts #13 and #15).


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## Jaap (Mar 1, 2017)

The legal issue is also a question from my side and to not clutter your topic any further with it I made a new topic about this: http://vi-control.net/community/thr...s-for-commercial-work-for-others-legal.60295/

Love the sound of your examples on your website btw!


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## douggibson (Mar 1, 2017)

I just wanted to post what I received back from my free trial. Quick turn-around and was updated 
in a very speedy fashion that the files were received, update on the completion, and in the end 3 piano renderings.

(For some reason when I uploaded to soundcloud little pops appear. 1:30. This is NOT on the file I received and 100% a soundcloud issue. Hmm ?)



Based on this one test, I give this service a thumbs up. A very positive experience indeed !
I wrote Craig suggesting that he could offer a midi editing, and service which he plays in the music to achieve the most realistic results. Of course this service should cost much more too. Since he is a piano teacher and performer why not let us hire your expertise too ? I can see this being really useful, and also that it seems to me obvious a lot of people are not going to have this expertise and thus may be having an expectation that it will all magically work out. It could be a nightmare having to optimize midi files for everyone. As for this example Craig did indeed need to optimize the file that I sent over which was a direct export from Sibelius. 

Again to wrap up, I received the results I had expected and hoped for *. A significant improvement over the Sibelius rendering. I would recommend using this service.**

(* I only did this out of curiosity... this was simply a old file collecting dust in my hard drive.) 

(**Don't make me state that if you are a piano player, have 100 Vi pianos yourself etc, that you don't need this.
For those who are looking for a piano rendering option)


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## mat1 (Mar 5, 2017)

Sounds great but this would probably be more useful if it was closer an online session player type thing.. Where Craig improves the voicings and choses the piano and tone based on a reference track


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## Mundano (Mar 5, 2017)

so, is this in essence a "midi-mockup" service, focused on piano rendering? I find it is a good idea for many writing composers. Why but only piano rendering? Thank you for responding. Best, M


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## CGR (Mar 7, 2017)

Mundano said:


> so, is this in essence a "midi-mockup" service, focused on piano rendering? I find it is a good idea for many writing composers. Why but only piano rendering? Thank you for responding. Best, M


Thanks for showing an interest Mundano. I wanted to specialise and focus on something I'm not only passionate about, but have a great depth of knowledge and experience with.


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## CGR (Mar 7, 2017)

mat1 said:


> Sounds great but this would probably be more useful if it was closer an online session player type thing.. Where Craig improves the voicings and choses the piano and tone based on a reference track


Thanks for your feedback mat1. Alongside the midi to audio service, I am intending the site to showcase my playing and writing/arranging abilities. All demo tracks on http://www.pianoproducer.com/the-pianos/ are played in live by me, and all composed by me apart from Piano 2. Hamburg Steinway Model D Concert Grand Demo B (Rachmaninoff) and the excerpt of my arrangement of Amazing Grace (Piano 4. Yamaha C7 Studio Grand (7′ 6″) A Demo B).

I've written about online or studio collaboration here:
http://www.pianoproducer.com/about/
I am certainly open to discussing projects and session player type work as you suggested.


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## CGR (Mar 8, 2017)

To all those interested, I have set up a Soundcloud account where I plan to post regular demos of the pianoproducer midi to audio service. To kick things off, here's a test for any sampled piano - the mighty La Campanella by Franz Liszt:


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## CGR (Mar 8, 2017)

And now for something completely different:


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## procreative (Mar 8, 2017)

Not to derail this, but I really think you need to study any EULAs with your libraries as from the ones I have looked at from Spitfire and East West I think you will be in danger of breaking the licenses.

Most EULAs only allow the license owner to perform/record with a library, what you are doing is technically just rendering them. I would really reccomend you contact each library you are using to clarify before you get too far in with this as if they come after you later...

_Spitfire Audio Holdings Ltd grants to you and only you, subject to the following terms and conditions, a single non-exclusive, non-sublicensable, non-transferable right to use the Audio Sample Recordings on the following terms. The product and enclosed recordings are the property of Spitfire Audio Holdings Ltd and are *licensed to you only for use as part of a musical performance, live or recorded*.
_
You may be fine, but I think you are on the edge of what is considered okay.


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## CGR (Mar 8, 2017)

procreative said:


> Not to derail this, but I really think you need to study any EULAs with your libraries as from the ones I have looked at from Spitfire and East West I think you will be in danger of breaking the licenses.
> 
> Most EULAs only allow the license owner to perform/record with a library, what you are doing is technically just rendering them. I would really reccomend you contact each library you are using to clarify before you get too far in with this as if they come after you later...
> 
> ...


Thanks for your information and concern procreative, and I appreciate your input on this issue. It seems evident from the numerous posts that the EULAs are open to interpretation. From my research, I honesty believe I am working within my rights as a licensed owner of the sampled pianos I use.

My intention was never to compete or interfere with sample library developer's businesses, and I have a huge admiration and appreciation for their work.

After feedback from Douglas Gibson and others, I'm seriously considering changing the pianoproducer.com service to a piano arranging/composition service, where I take someone's track and contribute a piano part or re-arrange an existing part with re-voicing etc. Basically and on-line session musician service. Obviously the pricing structure would be different, but what are your thoughts on this idea?


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## procreative (Mar 8, 2017)

I dont have a strong feeling either way, but I just wanted you to avoid getting into issues with EULAs (I dont have an axe to grind on this). I think there is still a big gap between being within your rights and being within THEIR terms.

But I do feel you might have better success with something like this, although probably marketed more at songwriters rather than soundtrack composers (who make up the majority of forum members here I would guess).


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## mc_deli (Mar 10, 2017)

(Not that my opinion matters but that sounds like a much much much better idea, with much greater value for others, might interest me one day and is much more understandable and expected plus much more obviously acceptable without Eula confusion/interpretation. Whatever way you go good luck with this.)


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## CGR (Apr 25, 2017)

Some positive reviews from Gearnews.com and Award Winning Composer Douglas Gibson for the Pianoproducer service:
http://www.pianoproducer.com/ (Piano producer | professional quality MIDI to audio)


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