# Expressive String libraries



## JohnMarkPainter (Mar 9, 2019)

Digging through these forums to find libraries I have never heard of (THERE ARE MANY).
I promise to keep researching, but looking for a 'short list'.

I've been writing for live strings and orchestras for a long time and rarely relied on VI for the actual work because I just couldn't get what I wanted from them without using phrase based samples at least.


I have Bohemian Violin and Cello and Spitfire Solo Strings.
Spitfire seems a little safe for me but useful for sure.
I work mostly on rock/pop records as opposed to orchestral style.

I am looking for sections that are playable.
Vibrato/Non Vib, Portamento, non phony legato are all very important to me.
Just found 8Dio All Adagio and like what I am hearing.

I have Play Cloud, Iconica Ensembles, Halion Symphonic

Thoughts?
Thanks


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## JohnG (Mar 9, 2019)

Others may differ, but I think that if you can play strings yourself and have a lot of experience with the real thing, no library can touch them (real strings). The transitions are mostly way too LOUD, for starters. Then there's the "ever so slightly out of tune" problem, the note transition problem, the lack of control over dynamics, the mic-too-close / too-far-away problem. It's endless.

A string quartet often sounds so magical and just try doing that with samples.

As you know, when wind and string players execute even the simplest lines, they give them shape. It's mind-numbingly time consuming to give shape to every note / line in a sampled orchestra.

I still like the sound of Hollywood Strings but I like the Diamond set with the other mic positions (for full disclosure I have received free products from East West but I certainly paid full price for HS).


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## midiman (Mar 9, 2019)

Cinematic Studio Strings are still probably the best overall option out there. I am not sure you are looking for symphonic strings or solo strings, cause you mention you wrote for orchestras, but the libraries you talked about are both solo strings...


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## Robert_G (Mar 9, 2019)

If 'expressive' is your #1 want.....8dio century strings bundle is what you want. The sampled arcs are beautiful and unmatched by other libraries. The sound overall is top notch.


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## JohnG (Mar 9, 2019)

midiman said:


> Cinematic Studio Strings are still probably the best overall option out there. I am not sure you are looking for symphonic strings or solo strings, cause you mention you wrote for orchestras, but the libraries you talked about are both solo strings...



CSS is has a great sound -- I bought it and I use it -- but personally I use it when I want / can handle a lot of vibrato. For me, the vibrato is either completely off (that is, no vibrato) or it's very intense.


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## JohnMarkPainter (Mar 9, 2019)

As an example of one type of writing I use a lot, this is a quartet stacked 4 times.
Would have sounded better with 16 players (if they were tight).

Non Vib is important to me. I wish Bohemian had it


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## Batrawi (Mar 9, 2019)

Nice snippet!!
I think LASS probably is the best option in sample world to get you close to this


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## Batrawi (Mar 9, 2019)

JohnMarkPainter said:


> As an example of one type of writing I use a lot, this is a quartet stacked 4 times.
> Would have sounded better with 16 players (if they were tight).
> 
> Non Vib is important to me. I wish Bohemian had it




I tried to mock up your second example (love this style!);
Here is it with LASS, 8Dio ISS and CSS(close mics).
To be fair, I just didn't spend much time with midi editing and I just copied/pasted the same data. In all honesty, the library that I didn't expect to do well actually sounded by far the best of them all

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/lass-mp3.18861/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/8dio-iss-mp3.18862/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/css-mp3.18863/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## NoamL (Mar 9, 2019)

Hi John, welcome to VI-C!

CSS ought to be on _every_ recommendations list for string libraries. It's just so high quality. However, for what you're specifically looking for & based on your audio references, I think you will get a kick out of *LA Scoring Strings*. Especially since you are working on records more than film/tv.

I don't normally recommend LASS to people but for your purposes it might have several advantages:

very dry, controlled studio sound
good non-vibrato samples
you can build small-to-large section sizes (anywhere from a 16-piece to 60-piece string orchestra)
very playable
You should absolutely still look at *Cinematic Studio Strings*, but there are a few things in it that might be dealbreakers for you. The legato is very realistic and therefore takes up to 300ms on the slower transitions; thus you either have to use a delay-compensating tool or move the notes left of their quantized position. If you don't like working with MIDI / not as experienced, it can be a little frustrating and not the most "playable out of the box" library, although @Ihnoc has written a really nice script for Kontakt that is a must-have. CSS has very expressive and beautiful vibrato especially at the top dynamics, with a romantic sound - think 50s-80s Hollywood. Non vibrato samples are there but the legato transitions aren't as great as for the main library.

The disadvantages of LASS, by contrast (and what keeps me from recommending it more often): only one microphone position; only one speed of legato transition (plus portamentos); not enough varieties of short notes; a rather dry and rosiny sound that you really have to work with to make it sound "Hollywood"; and finally it's more expensive than comparable libraries.


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## JohnMarkPainter (Mar 9, 2019)

Batrawi said:


> I tried to mock up your second example (love this style!);
> Here is it with LASS, 8Dio ISS and CSS(close mics).
> To be fair, I just didn't spend much time with midi editing and I just copied/pasted the same data. In all honesty, the library that I didn't expect to do well actually sounded by far the best of them all
> 
> ...


Super helpful.
Only listened on my phone, but I can tell I need to at least get the legato LSS soon


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## JohnMarkPainter (Mar 9, 2019)

NoamL said:


> Hi John, welcome to VI-C!
> 
> CSS ought to be on _every_ recommendations list for string libraries. It's just so high quality. However, for what you're specifically looking for & based on your audio references, I think you will get a kick out of *LA Scoring Strings*. Especially since you are working on records more than film/tv.
> 
> ...


Understood.
The more present recording is very important for me.
They all have their limitations....gotta get all of them


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## JohnG (Mar 9, 2019)

@NoamL I think is spot on. LASS considering your interests. It's a good complement to Hollywood Strings.


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## Vik (Mar 9, 2019)

LASS and CSS (and CSSS) are certainly good recommendations, and for detailed control over expression and an intimate sound, it may be worth checking out some solo libraries as well. Maybe a combination of solo (or first chair) samples and small sections is be a good way to get the sound I think you're looking for?

There must be at least 150-200 string libraries out there, and it will take time to find out what your best choices are... so, unless you have checked them already: it could be worth checking out Harmonic Subtones' Emotional Cello and Emotional Violin. There are also some libraries that won't give you much control over legato/vibrato, but which still sound expressive - like for instance The Tina Guo cello, some of the Afflatus presets (NB: no vib or portamento control), like the Scene d'Amour presets, Performance Sampling's Soaring Strings and the Con Moto Cello by Performance Samples. Surprisingly, some libraries sound more expressive with almost no parameters to control than some of the libraries which have a lot of knobs. Spitfire Chamber Strings is also a library that's worth checking out, comes with a lot of articulations and is very playable.

One of the examples you posted would benefit from a way to have detailed control over how a note ends, and the Emotional Violin is a good example of a library that lets you do this. If you look at this picture, you'll se that you can choose from a lot of different 'ornaments' (endings) by using the key switches in the right column. If you press one of these key switches after you have played your note, the note will fade into another articulation. I wish more non-solo libraries had this option.





Embertone's Joshua Bell Solo violin and Spitfire's Bernard Herrman library may also be worth checking out.


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## JohnMarkPainter (Mar 10, 2019)

Vik said:


> LASS and CSS (and CSSS) are certainly good recommendations, and for detailed control over expression and an intimate sound, it may be worth checking out some solo libraries as well. Maybe a combination of solo (or first chair) samples and small sections is be a good way to get the sound I think you're looking for?
> 
> There must be at least 150-200 string libraries out there, and it will take time to find out what your best choices are... so, unless you have checked them already: it could be worth checking out Harmonic Subtones' Emotional Cello and Emotional Violin. There are also some libraries that won't give you much control over legato/vibrato, but which still sound expressive - like for instance The Tina Guo cello, some of the Afflatus presets (NB: no vib or portamento control), like the Scene d'Amour presets, Performance Sampling's Soaring Strings and the Con Moto Cello by Performance Samples. Surprisingly, some libraries sound more expressive with almost no parameters to control than some of the libraries which have a lot of knobs. Spitfire Chamber Strings is also a library that's worth checking out, comes with a lot of articulations and is very playable.
> 
> ...


Yikes!
I have a lot of listening to do.

Maybe I can replace my Garritan Gofriller and Stradivarius libraries


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## holywilly (Mar 10, 2019)

VSL dimension Strings can be very expressive and it works very well both by itself and layering with others.


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## Batrawi (Mar 10, 2019)

JohnMarkPainter said:


> Super helpful.
> Only listened on my phone, but I can tell I need to at least get the legato LSS soon


Just in case... what did you mean by LSS? if you mean 8Dio's ISS (capital "i" for intimate; not a small "L") then you should be aware that it has no vibrato control, even though, I consider it to have a very well thought legato transition that starts with a non-vibrato and then progressively fades into vibrato based on real perfarmance! It is very well implemented that I personally haven't felt the need for a vibrato control for the first time. Yet, I thought you should know in case this could be a deal-breaker to you


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## JohnMarkPainter (Mar 10, 2019)

Batrawi said:


> Nice snippet!!
> I think LASS probably is the best option in sample world to get you close to this


Will I be sorry if I start with the Lite LASS?
I do a lot of unisons/octaves that then split out into more parts.
A lot of samples don't pull this off well.
Will I need all the separate chairs etc to do it?
I don't fully understand the structure of their libraries yet (Other than the ARC)
P.S.
Working on a disco-esque track this week

A couple more refs. Same Quartet
The 'bite' in the tone is generally useful for pop mixing.


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## JohnG (Mar 10, 2019)

Nothing sounds like the real thing, but of the string libraries I have, I agree with @NoamL that LASS is the closest to what you have been posting.

Good luck!


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## Batrawi (Mar 10, 2019)

JohnMarkPainter said:


> I do a lot of unisons/octaves that then split out into more parts.


If that's how you usually write, then you will need the Full LASS Library which contains all divisi sections and not the Lite version. You'll need to look at their chart available at the bottom of this page to understand the structure
https://audiobro.com/la-scoring-strings/la-scoring-strings-lite/
but there is nothing really complicated about it; if you take for example the violins section, you'll get divisi A(4 players), divisi B(4 players) and divisi C(8 players). They are all different unique players/samples. Then, you have the full violins patch which combines all 3 divisi in one patch(16 players). Same applies for the other sections. Of course this is all aside from the solo instruments! So in a nut shell, LASS full will give you the most flexible option. I would recommend it based on that.. even though deep inside, I would still highly encourage you to take a closer look at CSS; no it DOES NOT have good vibrato control as LASS; no it DOES NOT have divisi sections as LASS, but man, its realism is just on another level! 
For the couple of references you just posted above, I think LASS can pull off both very well. CSS on the other hand will pull off the first one superbly, but the second one...not so good (due to the non vibrato).


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## JohnMarkPainter (Mar 10, 2019)

The Berrnard Herrman Spitfire looks like fun for the right job.
But the LASS is calling me...

I like very present sounds with orchestra. 
Sorry for the long example, but this is a small orchestra that I cut at Ocean Way Nashville. Strings are in at :40 (a horn player had one ear off on their headphone bleeding click...oops)


Iconica has a nice close mic tone but their legato has a bad note transition tendency....one note sounds great but then a moving riff totally blows your cover.
Especially when I try to play unison lines like the ones in this example


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## constaneum (Mar 10, 2019)

JohnG said:


> Nothing sounds like the real thing, but of the string libraries I have, I agree with @NoamL that LASS is the closest to what you have been posting.
> 
> Good luck!



Yes. Nothing sound like the real thing. I think sampled strings' limitation is sort of there (probably due to constraints?) unless they manage to find new way to capture the sound. The expressiveness in sample strings are sort of dull.

If you compared sample strings with the examples like "HoliStringRef" by JohnMarkPainter, the real deal sounds clean. Samples on the hand always has lots of noise. I actually dont get why sampled strings mostly can't get a clean sound. Samples are also sampled from live musicians, same as live recording. Due to Mic choices? budgeted recording ?

LASS so far is the closest in terms of "clean sound" but the timbre might not be there. CSS & Afflatus Strings so far i think are the best sounding strings and i for now shall put a stop in the hunt for strings library. Probably few more years down the road, there'll be even better sounding strings. Let's wait for another 5 years for sampling evolution. =)


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## JohnMarkPainter (Mar 10, 2019)

I just bought LASS Lite and am using on a project that I have to finish tomorrow!
I think it sounds great for unisons and light portamento. I've already found limitations of course. 

I'm putting a Hi Cut around 7k and that is an improvement. The bow noise tends to cut through too much....kind of Sordino-esque


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## Studio E (Mar 10, 2019)

JohnMarkPainter said:


> I just bought LASS Lite and am using on a project that I have to finish tomorrow!
> I think it sounds great for unisons and light portamento. I've already found limitations of course.
> 
> I'm putting a Hi Cut around 7k and that is an improvement. The bow noise tends to cut through too much....kind of Sordino-esque



The Legato Sordino library is really amazing as well. Having the full LASS library really comes in handy. I own too many damn string libraries and often times, when I’m fighting the other ones, I remember that I have LASS and then just get work done. It’s worked out especially well for a few rock related projects. Enjoy!


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## Batrawi (Mar 10, 2019)

JohnMarkPainter said:


> I'm putting a Hi Cut around 7k and that is an improvement. The bow noise tends to cut through too much....kind of Sordino-esque


LASS patches load with EQ on by default. You might want to disable that if you want to start with the more raw sound and shape it to your taste.


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## JohnMarkPainter (Mar 11, 2019)

To anyone looking at LASS, it is very CPU efficient.


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## constaneum (Mar 11, 2019)

JohnMarkPainter said:


> To anyone looking at LASS, it is very CPU efficient.



it is very CPU efficient. has anyone manage to get the sound like the ones showed in the official audio demos?


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## JohnMarkPainter (Mar 11, 2019)

constaneum said:


> it is very CPU efficient. has anyone manage to get the sound like the ones showed in the official audio demos?


As always...I'd say you have to learn how to dodge the bad parts and take advantage of the good parts.
When I first opened it up, I played some things that blew my mind RE tone and realism.
Then when using it on this project, I played some things that sounded pretty fake.


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## constaneum (Mar 11, 2019)

JohnMarkPainter said:


> As always...I'd say you have to learn how to dodge the bad parts and take advantage of the good parts.
> When I first opened it up, I played some things that blew my mind RE tone and realism.
> Then when using it on this project, I played some things that sounded pretty fake.



ahhaha. true though.


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## Casiquire (Mar 11, 2019)

JohnMarkPainter said:


> I just bought LASS Lite and am using on a project that I have to finish tomorrow!
> I think it sounds great for unisons and light portamento. I've already found limitations of course.
> 
> I'm putting a Hi Cut around 7k and that is an improvement. The bow noise tends to cut through too much....kind of Sordino-esque



The library is quite raw. We have to always remind new users that the modwheel should stay under halfway up for like 85% of most writing. The library is QUICK to hit F. In most arrangements it can sound like FF at a CC of like 90. So that cuts your bow nose quite a bit.

The next tip: play with the colors. Some of them are beautiful and most of them tame the bow noise. 

I've found it fairly simple to get a good sound. First, a great arrangement, second, very low CC values for most of it, third, colors, and fourth, EQ. Usually I only need the first two options.


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## MOMA (Mar 12, 2019)

I would recommend the combination of CSS and CSSS. If you are working in rock and pop, there probably will be a need for a really good legato. To handle the tight space of a pop track and get those string melodies loud and clear, you just might need what those libraries are able to deliver. It is true that there is some latency in the transitions, but its easy to compensate. The straight studio sound will not mud your mixes and the gui may be the best on the market. 

Working with close mics you´ll have full control and probably the most genuine sound there is out there.

I do hope you´ll find what you´re looking for – good luck!

MOMA, Sweden


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## JohnMarkPainter (Mar 12, 2019)

MOMA said:


> I would recommend the combination of CSS and CSSS. If you are working in rock and pop, there probably will be a need for a really good legato. To handle the tight space of a pop track and get those string melodies loud and clear, you just might need what those libraries are able to deliver. It is true that there is some latency in the transitions, but its easy to compensate. The straight studio sound will not mud your mixes and the gui may be the best on the market.
> 
> Working with close mics you´ll have full control and probably the most genuine sound there is out there.
> 
> ...


I'll dig in more with CSS. They sound more "corporate" to me (which you need sometimes).
I'll likely end up with some 8Dio soon as well.
I'm working on a Disco track end of this week....seems like a good solution


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## stevebarden (Mar 12, 2019)

Not every string library is the perfect library for every situation. I recently acquired two new strings libraries (new to me!) and did a mock up of John Williams' "Yoda's Theme". This is just the string part. This guy knows how to write for strings and this piece uses several different but common articulations.

Century Strings


Berlin Strings


Bernard Herrmann Composer Toolkit was also mentioned in this thread. I think it is perfectly suitable for lush legato strings.


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## José Herring (Mar 12, 2019)

JohnMarkPainter said:


> As an example of one type of writing I use a lot, this is a quartet stacked 4 times.
> Would have sounded better with 16 players (if they were tight).
> 
> Non Vib is important to me. I wish Bohemian had it



I gotta admit that this sounds way better than I thought it would. You are getting a little of that Chorusing that comes from overdubbing the same players but not nearly as bad as I've head it in the past. 

Often over looked library that does well for this kind of stuff is LASS Legato Sordino. Lacking in the shorts though, but with the EQ setting turned off it totally just sounds like unmutted strings and I often use it as a secret weapon for intimate sounding lower dynamics.

Also, NI session strings would work well. They have a tight sound in a tight room. I like them a lot but just have absolutely no use for them atm because I don't do any record work any more.


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## JohnMarkPainter (Mar 12, 2019)

stevebarden said:


> Not every string library is the perfect library for every situation. I recently acquired two new strings libraries (new to me!) and did a mock up of John Williams' "Yoda's Theme". This is just the string part. This guy knows how to write for strings and this piece uses several different but common articulations.
> 
> Century Strings
> 
> ...



I like that Herrman tone....


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## JohnMarkPainter (Mar 12, 2019)

josejherring said:


> I gotta admit that this sounds way better than I thought it would. You are getting a little of that Chorusing that comes from overdubbing the same players but not nearly as bad as I've head it in the past.
> 
> Often over looked library that does well for this kind of stuff is LASS Legato Sordino. Lacking in the shorts though, but with the EQ setting turned off it totally just sounds like unmutted strings and I often use it as a secret weapon for intimate sounding lower dynamics.
> 
> Also, NI session strings would work well. They have a tight sound in a tight room. I like them a lot but just have absolutely no use for them atm because I don't do any record work any more.


Yep....even on some bigger records I've worked on, 6-8 players is more typical than 16+
The players are used to and will swap instruments and/or parts on different passes. Also pretty typical to do a Sordino pass as a layer.
I'm sure I'll end with the LASS Sordino too


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## Jeremy Spencer (Mar 13, 2019)

JohnMarkPainter said:


> I have Play Cloud



IMO, you already have the best (Hollywood Strings), especially for legato and detailed sections. I also own 8Dio Adagio bundle.....it has been collecting dust' I find it too inconsistent.


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## Casiquire (Mar 13, 2019)

Wolfie2112 said:


> IMO, you already have the best (Hollywood Strings), especially for legato and detailed sections. I also own 8Dio Adagio bundle.....it has been collecting dust' I find it too inconsistent.



I think there's still great advantage to getting Diamond of course!


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## constaneum (Mar 13, 2019)

stevebarden said:


> Not every string library is the perfect library for every situation. I recently acquired two new strings libraries (new to me!) and did a mock up of John Williams' "Yoda's Theme". This is just the string part. This guy knows how to write for strings and this piece uses several different but common articulations.
> 
> Century Strings
> 
> ...




if you compare century and berlin, i prefer berlin.


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## JohnMarkPainter (Mar 13, 2019)

I am finding that BDio Intimate Studio, LASS, Spitfire Solo and Bohemian actually stack well.

Differenences In legato and vib cover up glitches


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## JohnMarkPainter (Mar 14, 2019)

Wolfie2112 said:


> IMO, you already have the best (Hollywood Strings), especially for legato and detailed sections. I also own 8Dio Adagio bundle.....it has been collecting dust' I find it too inconsistent.


My ear gravitates more to the LASS character wise. I am tired of paying for Play/Cloud when I don't use much of the library for the work I do. We'll see.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Mar 14, 2019)

JohnMarkPainter said:


> My ear gravitates more to the LASS character wise. I am tired of paying for Play/Cloud when I don't use much of the library for the work I do. We'll see.



Well, if you ever decide you like Hollywood Strings, just buy Gold when it's on sale and cancel the cloud.


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## JohnMarkPainter (Mar 14, 2019)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Well, if you ever decide you like Hollywood Strings, just buy Gold when it's on sale and cancel the cloud.


Yikes!
I just looked and Gold is only $139 right now....


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## Johnny (Mar 14, 2019)

JohnMarkPainter said:


> Digging through these forums to find libraries I have never heard of (THERE ARE MANY).
> I promise to keep researching, but looking for a 'short list'.
> 
> I've been writing for live strings and orchestras for a long time and rarely relied on VI for the actual work because I just couldn't get what I wanted from them without using phrase based samples at least.
> ...


8Dio Century Strings is an excellent contender : )


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## JohnMarkPainter (Mar 15, 2019)

So I went ahead and grabbed the LASS First Chair.
It's pretty crusty. I think it will be useful for me.

Spitfire Solo vibratos bug me. Glitchy loops maybe?
Sounds like a trill sometimes.


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## jbuhler (Mar 15, 2019)

JohnMarkPainter said:


> So I went ahead and grabbed the LASS First Chair.
> It's pretty crusty. I think it will be useful for me.
> 
> Spitfire Solo vibratos bug me. Glitchy loops maybe?
> Sounds like a trill sometimes.


I find vibrato on those solo instruments works fine in context with an ensemble but it’s hard to control and often too much on its own. The progressive vibrato longs often work better if you don’t need the legato, and the virtuoso violin performance legato patch uses the progressive vibrato for its longs so it often works better if you need more varied vibrato. In any case, vibrato is definitely the hardest challenge with this library.


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## JohnMarkPainter (Mar 15, 2019)

Just an FYI about BDio Intimate strings Disco presets.
The runs aren't done well.
Very loud attack and it dies off quickly before the run is over.

I had to run it through hard compression to actually use it.

I still like the recording on the old Smart Violins library


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## JohnMarkPainter (Mar 23, 2019)

I just did a big lush VI String arrangement on a pop song using Iconica.

Then I also exported the files using LASS Lite and Hollywood Gold.
Tonally, Iconica is scooped. Works in some contexts.
LASS has edge without being annoying.
Hollywood sounds harsh in comparison.


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## muziksculp (Mar 23, 2019)

JohnMarkPainter said:


> Tonally, Iconica is scooped.



What does Scooped mean here ? Can you elaborate about this a bit further. 

Thanks.


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## JohnMarkPainter (Mar 23, 2019)

muziksculp said:


> What does Scooped mean here ? Can you elaborate about this a bit further.
> 
> Thanks.


EQ, tone of room. tone of the mics.

Here is the same phrase with Iconic, LASS and Hollywood Gold.
It was programmed for Iconica (and meant to have reverb which is turned off here).
The Portamentos in the LASS clip were unintentional. Iconica was used on the record.

Hollywood has a more nasal/honk to it.
Could be good for cutting through a track.
Iconica stays out of the way is very wide.
LASS seems tp be a good balance.

My Iconica trial period is almost up so I am comparing.
I have Play Composer Cloud for a few more months.
I own LASS Lite.


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 23, 2019)

I think a truly expressive _composer_ might be better off looking to eventually get their music played by actual instrumentalists.

I don't even think "expressive" when I think of libraries. It's as @JohnG said, you won't get that with vsts (or at least nowhere near the degree an actual performance of your work would produce).

I think I mentioned in another thread, there will never be a sample library that can match a soloist or ensemble for real, one whom knows your music inside and out for performance, heeding your input until you're satisfied. Even better, one that actually _likes_ the music they're being paid to play (this last I learned with my own music...if they love or even really like it, it will be astonishing, if they're noncommital it will be professional, if they hate it it will still be better than using libraries).

I think HZ said it well: "there is no such thing as an orchestra in a box". There are however great sounding libraries that can be really inspiring and work terrific...toward making mock ups.


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 23, 2019)

muziksculp said:


> What does Scooped mean here ? Can you elaborate about this a bit further.
> 
> Thanks.



Metallica, dude!


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## JohnMarkPainter (Mar 23, 2019)

Parsifal666 said:


> I think a truly expressive _composer_ might be better off looking to eventually get their music played by actual instrumentalists.
> 
> I don't even think "expressive" when I think of libraries. It's as @JohnG said, you won't get that with vsts (or at least nowhere near the degree an actual performance of your work would produce).
> 
> ...


Yep...I've done that thousands of times and I am spoiled.

But VI have advanced considerably in the last few years.
Just controlling vibrato, dynamics (as opposed to just the volume) and the true legato/portamento/gliss thing is massive for me.

I am really impressed with how much better it is than the old days.
And I have clients that don't have the money for the real thing so I need to step up my VI game a bit.


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## JohnMarkPainter (Mar 23, 2019)

I am working on a dance track right now and used the 8Dio Intimate Strings.
I had to HEAVILY compress to get all the notes out of the fast runs.
I probably could have layered some slow glisses in to smooth it out.
I have also used Trills in the past for odd fingered glissando.

This is the 8Dio.
Focused tone, it is a dense track.


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## JohnMarkPainter (Mar 23, 2019)

muziksculp said:


> What does Scooped mean here ? Can you elaborate about this a bit further.
> 
> Thanks.


Updated and added a comparison track


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## JohnBMears (Mar 23, 2019)

JohnMarkPainter said:


> Updated and added a comparison track



Hey John I’m near Murfreesboro and have most of the libraries mentioned here if you wanna come by and demo them.


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## poshook (Sep 23, 2021)

constaneum said:


> Yes. Nothing sound like the real thing. I think sampled strings' limitation is sort of there (probably due to constraints?) unless they manage to find new way to capture the sound. The expressiveness in sample strings are sort of dull.
> 
> If you compared sample strings with the examples like "HoliStringRef" by JohnMarkPainter, the real deal sounds clean. Samples on the hand always has lots of noise. I actually dont get why sampled strings mostly can't get a clean sound. Samples are also sampled from live musicians, same as live recording. Due to Mic choices? budgeted recording ?
> 
> LASS so far is the closest in terms of "clean sound" but the timbre might not be there. CSS & Afflatus Strings so far i think are the best sounding strings and i for now shall put a stop in the hunt for strings library. Probably few more years down the road, there'll be even better sounding strings. Let's wait for another 5 years for sampling evolution. =)


In the right hands any of the libraries mentioned above can sound excellent and emotionally full in the composition and very close to real deal. The difference would be negligible for 99% of the listeners and clearly audible for trained ears or people with some knowledge only.


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## JohnMarkPainter (Sep 23, 2021)

poshook said:


> In the right hands any of the libraries mentioned above can sound excellent and emotionally full in the composition and very close to real deal. The difference would be negligible for 99% of the listeners and clearly audible for trained ears or people with some knowledge only.


yep.
It isn’t just the way they are captured although the personal taste of the engineer and the room is a MASSIVE part of that.

I am spoiled. I have gotten to work with amazing session players. They know how and when to alter their tone to make the arrangement sound better in a track.
That performance aspect is a big deal


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## poshook (Sep 23, 2021)

JohnMarkPainter said:


> yep.
> It isn’t just the way they are captured although the personal taste of the engineer and the room is a MASSIVE part of that.
> 
> I am spoiled. I have gotten to work with amazing session players. They know how and when to alter their tone to make the arrangement sound better in a track.
> That performance aspect is a big deal


That is true, no doubt. However this aspect matters only when they play a masterpiece composition. This is the reason why I wrote my comment in this thread that focus a lot on the sample library quality but somehow miss the more important aspect - composer/producer quality. The producer is the only element who can bring the library to live and make the difference. Any of the library mentioned in this thread is perfectly fine to make it happen IMO. Conclusion - do not waste time and money for another library but learn how to use your existing library to meet your expectations.


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## JohnMarkPainter (Sep 23, 2021)

poshook said:


> That is true, no doubt. However this aspect matters only when they play a masterpiece composition. This is the reason why I wrote my comment in this thread that focus a lot on the sample library quality but somehow miss the more important aspect - composer/producer quality. The producer is the only element who can bring the library to live and make the difference. Any of the library mentioned in this thread is perfectly fine to make it happen IMO. Conclusion - do not waste time and money for another library but learn how to use your existing library to meet your expectations.


Not in my experience.
Whole notes and simple melodic lines on pop songs require just as much of not more insight and response from the players.
Ive also worked with sections made up of excellent players that don’t have recording experience and/or have no respect for the music they are playing.
Sounds canned

So with samples, then the skill of knowing how you can make the sounds and articulations you have at your disposal work in context is the big deal


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## Oxytoxine (Sep 23, 2021)

John, sorry to chime in. Reading your posts and listening to your very well done pieces resonates with me, so I just wanted to briefly ask whether you got some more string libraries in the meanwhile and whether - besides LASS - there is a new standout for you among the newer ones? (Generally and especially with the focus on pop songs)

And in case you didn't stumble over them yet: I think that the Chris Hein Solo and Ensemble Strings might fit your use case and also match LASS very well.


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## poshook (Sep 23, 2021)

JohnMarkPainter said:


> Not in my experience.
> Whole notes and simple melodic lines on pop songs require just as much of not more insight and response from the players.
> Ive also worked with sections made up of excellent players that don’t have recording experience and/or have no respect for the music they are playing.
> Sounds canned
> ...


I think we are talking about the same. To have a clear vision of what need to be done including skill of knowing the right way how to use sounds and articulations to fulfill that vision is what makes the difference between a good producer and an average one. EW Hollywood Strings sound gorgeous and extremely versatile in any Thomas Bergersen's production no matter what emotions he is trying to bring on the table while the same library sound just static and harsh in the composition of someone else.


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## JohnMarkPainter (Sep 23, 2021)

Oxytoxine said:


> John, sorry to chime in. Reading your posts and listening to your very well done pieces resonates with me, so I just wanted to briefly ask whether you got some more string libraries in the meanwhile and whether - besides LASS - there is a new standout for you among the newer ones? (Generally and especially with the focus on pop songs)
> 
> And in case you didn't stumble over them yet: I think that the Chris Hein Solo and Ensemble Strings might fit your use case and also match LASS very well.


I’ve been using 8Dio for sections


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## poshook (Sep 23, 2021)

JohnMarkPainter said:


> I’ve been using 8Dio for sections


8Dio Chamber (Closed mic) from Adaggio is very effective to mix with ensemble strings (I use HO Diamond) to get more definition from the final texture


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## JohnMarkPainter (Sep 23, 2021)

poshook said:


> 8Dio Chamber (Closed mic) from Adaggio is very effective to mix with ensemble strings (I use HO Diamond) to get more definition from the final texture


I’ve been pretty happy with the way they record. 
I’ve got the Emotional Cello/Viola/Violin and the Bohemian Cello/Violin (will be getting their Viola as well).

Those cover a lot of ground.
Used with caution, you can’t tell they are samples. But it’s easy to mess up and blow your cover


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## Casiquire (Sep 23, 2021)

I saw CSS and LASS mentioned earlier here. I strongly recommend blending the two. They combine into a beautiful chamber string sound full of expression, detail, and life


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## muziksculp (Sep 23, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I saw CSS and LASS mentioned earlier here. I strongly recommend blending the two. They combine into a beautiful chamber string sound full of expression, detail, and life


I'm trying to imagine the resulting sound of this blend. I will give it a try. 

Thanks for the recommendation.


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## holywilly (Sep 24, 2021)

My new favorite for expressive strings ensemble is Berlin Special Bows from Orchestral Tools, the sul tasto legatos are just too tasty to write with, it has meticulous quality on all dynamics. It’s now my go to library for score something emotional and expressive.


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## Batrawi (Oct 2, 2021)

JohnMarkPainter said:


> Will I be sorry if I start with the Lite LASS?
> I do a lot of unisons/octaves that then split out into more parts.
> A lot of samples don't pull this off well.
> Will I need all the separate chairs etc to do it?
> ...



@JohnMarkPainter here's another trial I made for your first ref. here. I made this with fake ensemble out of Cinematic Studio Solo Strings. IMO these have the best transitions in the marker (even better than CSS) which makes them the most expressive - although the timber itself is not as raw and may sound a bit nasal compared to your example. That's why I hope Alex considers a "dry" studio series one day/ once he's finished with the studio series

View attachment expressive Strings mockup(4).mp3


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