# Second effort at jazz with Audio/sample modeling



## DervishCapkiner (Sep 5, 2018)

A gypsy jazz swing type affair with my brand new audiomodeling clarinet. Personally I found it so much easier to mix than a bigband piece I just tried though the soloing could have done with being a little more varied/interesting/tasteful.


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## Rasmus Hartvig (Sep 5, 2018)

Pretty good work there! Well mixed, and you got some nice expression out of the clarinet. Love that style!

You're losing me a little bit though, whenever the guitar and clarinet plays together. Since they're panned quite far left/right, are playing in different octaves and not playing quite the same melody it creates a sort of confusion where I'm torn between what element to listen to. You could have them "riff" more together - not solo - in the same octave in complete unison. That would probably create the cohesion that they're lacking now.


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## DervishCapkiner (Sep 6, 2018)

Thank you for listening Rasmu


Rasmus Hartvig said:


> Pretty good work there! Well mixed, and you got some nice expression out of the clarinet. Love that style!
> 
> You're losing me a little bit though, whenever the guitar and clarinet plays together. Since they're panned quite far left/right, are playing in different octaves and not playing quite the same melody it creates a sort of confusion where I'm torn between what element to listen to. You could have them "riff" more together - not solo - in the same octave in complete unison. That would probably create the cohesion that they're lacking now.


 
Thank you for listening Rasmus. Yes, I totally agree! I was experimenting with the melody when writing it, trying each instrument and actually when I played it in first time I thought little breaks from melody sounded so real and live to me that actually ireally liked it. To be honest ( and I know this sounds a bit ridiculous) I really try to leave as many mistakes as i think I can get away with. I know it's stupid but my "idea" is that im getting better at deciding which one's sound 'live and in the performance' and which one's just sound crap. However I realize as you say to me now that perhaps it's either too distracting or just sounds wrong. Hmmmmm. You know that way you think you're in to something then you realize perhaps you're just fooling yourself?! Thanks regardless for your advice though


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## FourFour (Sep 6, 2018)

Really liking the clarinet. Perhaps a bit of automation on the volume might help prioritise either the guitar or the clarinet when they are playing together. And a bit less aggressive panning.


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## DervishCapkiner (Sep 6, 2018)

That's two for fixing the panning, yup..think I might have went a bit too far that one! Thanks four four


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## re-peat (Sep 6, 2018)

Much more convincing effort than the earlier big band adventure, Dervish. (Which was very fascinating to follow — thanks for that — but unfortunately never resulted in a strong track.)

This new one however has ‘strong’ written all over it. Great job. And I don’t mind the extreme panning. Even adds to the retro-ish-ness of the production, I find. And I also don’t mind that the guitar and the clarinet don’t see eye to eye on what variant of the melody they’re supposed to play. They clearly agree on the essence of the melody and in this case, that essence is just the right amount, I believe. The individual deviations, again, contribute to that pleasantly relaxed, nonchalant and impromptu feeling this track has and which you’ve suggested to perfection. Very well done.

You also picked one of only two applications for which, in my opinion, the SWAM Clarinet works really-really well: (1) ethnic/klezmer material or (2) jazz. Nice.

That strumming is live, I take it? Cause if that’s done with a virtual guitar, I must have it.

_


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## Maxfabian (Sep 6, 2018)

Nice one, sounds really nice!! I like it a lot What libraries did you use more than the clarinet? The Gitarr sounds real but the bas is it virtual?

Cheers!


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## Loïc D (Sep 6, 2018)

Really nice and very realistic. I guess some instruments are played live ? (guitar strum ?).
If I may, how much time did it take ?
I've not complaint with arrangement or panning.
My only (small) remark would be to tame a little bit the brightness of solo guitar with an EQ (specially on accents).


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## Polkasound (Sep 6, 2018)

The guitar sounds like Django from Impact Soundworks.

Personally, I like how the solo guitar and clarinet work together on this song, dropping in and out of unison, panned apart.

Well done all around!


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## fixxer49 (Sep 6, 2018)

Polkasound said:


> Personally, I like how the solo guitar and clarinet work together on this song, dropping in and out of unison, panned apart.


+1. i like it too.


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## DervishCapkiner (Sep 6, 2018)

re-peat said:


> Much more convincing effort than the earlier big band adventure, Dervish. (Which was very fascinating to follow — thanks for that — but unfortunately never resulted in a strong track.)
> 
> This new one however has ‘strong’ written all over it. Great job. And I don’t mind the extreme panning. Even adds to the retro-ish-ness of the production, I find. And I also don’t mind that the guitar and the clarinet don’t see eye to eye on what variant of the melody they’re supposed to play. They clearly agree on the essence of the melody and in this case, that essence is just the right amount, I believe. The individual deviations, again, contribute to that pleasantly relaxed, nonchalant and impromptu feeling this track has and which you’ve suggested to perfection. Very well done.
> 
> ...



Re-peat you're a gent, thank you for taking the time to listen to it and I'm glad you really get what I was trying. It wasn't my initial plan but after trying to do the solo in a single take for half an hour( im a fairly late learner on piano - 29! - im actually a drummer/percussionist) I realized it suited the live ( full of little mistakes) feel to it that adds to the vibe.

I did the panning for the very reason youre saying though I was also thinking about pitting everything in mono with a record crackle and a heavily eq'ed top and bottom but hey ho.
Yes I think I just lucky concerning the Clarinet, as it really seems to suit the sound of jazz/klezmer really well, especially at low volumes.

The guitar as polka correctly pointed out - good ears polka! - is impact soundworks Django - I just played in an 8 bar strumming loop ( adding some buzzed or misfretted chords which is so easy with impact's Django) after getting really frustrated with the auto strumming engine going out of time when I tried to quantize little bits of it.

I doubt it very, very much for yourself but I would be happy to help or show anything if you asked me to?


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## DervishCapkiner (Sep 6, 2018)

Maxfabian said:


> Nice one, sounds really nice!! I like it a lot What libraries did you use more than the clarinet? The Gitarr sounds real but the bas is it virtual?
> 
> Cheers!


Thanks very much Max!

I used Django both lead and rhythm guitar and premier bass. I don't think I used the right mic this time ( you get three options) and one is apparently better for small group jazz but when I checked the website it didn't seem to be there anymore.....

Cheers dude


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## DervishCapkiner (Sep 6, 2018)

LowweeK said:


> Really nice and very realistic. I guess some instruments are played live ? (guitar strum ?).
> If I may, how much time did it take ?
> I've not complaint with arrangement or panning.
> My only (small) remark would be to tame a little bit the brightness of solo guitar with an EQ (specially on accents).



Hey loweek, thanks!

İts all impact's Django dude. I just played in the rhythm part - warts n'all ( at about 50bpm slower) and put some buzzed chords in place of opens. And slightly varied the upstrokes.

İt took about 4 hours all in truthfully though, the first hour was me messing around trying to get a one-take solo on an instrument I'm still not that strong at. Then 45 mins trying to get the automatic rhythm engine to strum in time with the click. Turns out ( as with most things) to just do it manually at a slower tempo.

İf i had to do another I reccon it would be realistically about three hours. 

Have you done any gypsy jazz stuff I could hear please?


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## s_bettinzana (Sep 6, 2018)

WOW! For me this clarinet sounds more real than the real thing

I don't have any of the SWAM instruments, but they have the highest priority in my wish-list.
But ... how difficult is to obtain this level of realism? Because for me you have done a very great job.


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## re-peat (Sep 6, 2018)

DervishCapkiner said:


> I would be happy to help or show anything if you asked me to



Dervish,

Two times thanks! Firstly, for making aware again of “Django” (I knew it existed, but more or less forgot about it), secondly, for kindly offering to help me with it.

I’ve meanwhile bought it — well, half of it: the rhythm guitar (what a pleasant surprise it was to discover that Impact Soundworks doesn’t force you buy the complete package if you’re only interested in one of its components) — installed it, and played with it for a couple of minutes and I think I’m getting the hang of it already. It’s not that difficult, is it? And it’s as good as is it simple. Me very, very happy!

Thanks again!

_


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## DervishCapkiner (Sep 6, 2018)

s_bettinzana said:


> WOW! For me this clarinet sounds more real than the real thing
> 
> I don't have any of the SWAM instruments, but they have the highest priority in my wish-list.
> But ... how difficult is to obtain this level of realism? Because for me you have done a very great job.



Thank you for your kind words s_bettinzana!

Hardish...

I would say the biggest 'aha' moment for me was how expressive the instrument is at low volumes with big differences in the pressure required when playing accented notes. Also making sure that phrases are a good mixture of legato and staccato. And improvising at a slower tempo but not too much slower as you'll have a different kind of feel and choice of phrases. Finally recording at a high volume ( speakers high with a gain on your main instrument ) so you're really there when you play helps me a lot. That's what I'm doing so far..

This is my second go with sample/audio modeling and my third year writing with sampled instruments and I would say personally I don't have all the tools/skills yet for making things sound really real but I am determined to start making a living doing this so to cut a long story short.. 

Things and anything - ( for me anyway ) are as hard as you imagine them be until you make them not hard for you...cheesy but true I think.


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## DervishCapkiner (Sep 6, 2018)

re-peat said:


> Dervish,
> 
> Two times thanks! Firstly, for making aware again of “Django” (I knew it existed, but more or less forgot about it), secondly, for kindly offering to help me with it.
> 
> ...



You're very welcome, though you already had it!

I find it so playable and easy to get a half-decent result. Just like Tina Guo cello, Premier bass 2 and cinematic strings 2.

I would love to hear what you're writing with it please?

Also I was looking up jazz drum conversations earlier today and saw an old post of yours about jazz drums...do you rate Superior drummer 3 with brushes at all? I ask because I didn't see anyone mention it and I absolutely love it. My first study is actually drums and with the roland TD50 it's so real sounding compared to anything else I've heard..


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## re-peat (Sep 6, 2018)

Dervish,

Can you believe I haven’t even upgraded to Superior 3 yet? I’m still on v2. That’s because, as much as I like Superior, I usually end up using other drums in my music (especially when I’m aiming for a natural, unhyped sound, which is more often the case than not): Mixosaurus, HandHeld, Chocolate Audio … and the drums from Premier (they don't just make the best jazz bass, their other stuff is outstanding too). It’s nearly always one of those that end up in my pieces.

(If you don’t mind using loops, another good choice for a brush kit is the one from Straight Ahead Jazz Drums.)

The Premier drum libraries are now all bundled in one big package called Drumtree, but before that, Premier sold them in separately. I have all those old libraries and one of them (“Historic Jazz Drums”) is the source of the samples with which I assembled my very own brush kit. 

I made several copies of all the available brush samples, retuned them ever so slightly, decreased or increased the attacks, or did something else to them, so as to end up with many, many more very subtle alternates and variants than are present in the original Premier set. 

For the bass drum, I chose the kick which I sampled from Paul Simon’s “50 Ways To Leave Your Lover” (that’s Steve Gadd on drums) — I really *love* that bassdrum, and it’s perfect for all things jazz — and for the hi-hats, I went with another favourite of mine and that’s the hi-hat that’s part of the old “Peter Erskine Living Drums” library (unfortunately no longer available).

I have to say, I am ex-tre-me-ly pleased with the result I got, to the point that, even if I say so myself, I can’t think of any commercially available option that I would want to replace it with. *http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/Examples/PremierBrushes.mp3 (Here’s what it sounds like.)*

_


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## Saxer (Sep 6, 2018)

Great track! Really fun to listen to!

The clarinet vibrato sounds wrong to me. It's the Audiomodeling default legato that sounds more like a chest vibrato than an embouchure vibrato. Chest vibrato is used by flute players and modulates mainly the volume (and sound) while reed players mostly use the embouchure vibrato which modulates the pitch (and sound). Reeds are more Oioioio while flutes are more Hwhwhwh (if that makes sense). Especially in Klezmer and Dixie extreme pitch vibrato is a big part of the style. I think it's possible to edit the Audiomodeling vibrato parameters but I actually didn't try. Might be worth... but beside the vibrato: the track swings!


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## CGR (Sep 6, 2018)

DervishCapkiner said:


> A gypsy jazz swing type affair with my brand new audiomodeling clarinet. Personally I found it so much easier to mix than a bigband piece I just tried though the soloing could have done with being a little more varied/interesting/tasteful.



Very cool track - it makes me feel happy!


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## DervishCapkiner (Sep 9, 2018)

re-peat said:


> Dervish,
> 
> Can you believe I haven’t even upgraded to Superior 3 yet? I’m still on v2. That’s because, as much as I like Superior, I usually end up using other drums in my music (especially when I’m aiming for a natural, unhyped sound, which is more often the case than not): Mixosaurus, HandHeld, Chocolate Audio … and the drums from Premier (they don't just make the best jazz bass, their other stuff is outstanding too). It’s nearly always one of those that end up in my pieces.
> 
> ...



Re-peat those samples and that performance sounds excellent, really natural and I love that I can hear alternate strokes! The performance is also a big part of it - reminds me of Gene Krupa, Louie Bellson and of course Buddy! Wow...

I'm actually a first study drummer and I'm super, super impressed with superior drummer's latest piece of software, especially combined with the Roland TD50 as you can make it very sensitive. They have options to have some of the kits played with brushes but I haven't worked out how to get long strokes - not sure you can. 

Despite this, it still doesn't sound anywhere near as raw, real and natural as your own one...i really hope they do a roots style package for SD3..


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## DervishCapkiner (Sep 9, 2018)

Saxer said:


> Great track! Really fun to listen to!
> 
> The clarinet vibrato sounds wrong to me. It's the Audiomodeling default legato that sounds more like a chest vibrato than an embouchure vibrato. Chest vibrato is used by flute players and modulates mainly the volume (and sound) while reed players mostly use the embouchure vibrato which modulates the pitch (and sound). Reeds are more Oioioio while flutes are more Hwhwhwh (if that makes sense). Especially in Klezmer and Dixie extreme pitch vibrato is a big part of the style. I think it's possible to edit the Audiomodeling vibrato parameters but I actually didn't try. Might be worth... but beside the vibrato: the track swings!





Hi Saxer, yes the onomatopoeic words really helped me last time with the articulations and they make perfect sense again this time! 

I think the diaphragmatic breathing that singers or flutists use sounds jazzy in some contexts but perhaps not this one as you say. It's also probably a little slow as well now that I'm listening to Rhapsody in Blue! I will check the settings in the plug in to see if this is just a simple change. 
Can I ask how would you do it, please? Maybe the pitch wheel?

Thank you again for checking it out, I love your 'Dixie Triller' and was amazed at the realism, authentic style, arrangement, dynamics etc. 

I take it you play the clarinet as well as the saxophone? I used to play clarinet in school ( 20 years ago) and wish I had kept it up - I would be playing Turkish music!

Cheers, D.


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## DervishCapkiner (Sep 9, 2018)

CGR said:


> Very cool track - it makes me feel happy!



Thanks, CGR!


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