# Natural Classical Orchestral records...



## hdsmile (Jan 10, 2019)

Hi all!
I wonder if there is a recording on youtube etc... of some natural orchestra recorded in great concert hall with excellent acoustics, but without processing any plugins such as compressors, expanders, exciters, etc...

thanks


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## cadenzajon (Jan 11, 2019)

Decca recordings tend to be fairly accurate, I've seen statements by some of their engineers disavowing use of compressors, etc. If you're looking for how a Decca Tree recording should sound, that's where I'd start.


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## hdsmile (Jan 11, 2019)

well, thank you, but I would like to hear some real records examples of orchestral sound, is there any links on youtube... etc.?


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## bryla (Jan 11, 2019)

Then try Decca.


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## hdsmile (Jan 11, 2019)

Again, I just want to listen a few good examples of the sound of a natural classical orchestra and nothing more.


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## muk (Jan 11, 2019)

Interesting question. Great classical recordings should have very little to no processing at all. But it is very difficult to know for certain how a recording has been engineered. This might be of interest:

https://www.occds.org/info/cnstr.html

Also, I would assume that live broadcasts of concerts won't have any after effects (compressor etc.) applied. But again it's hard to know in each single case.


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## hdsmile (Jan 11, 2019)

muk said:


> Also, I would assume that live broadcasts of concerts won't have any after effects (compressor etc.) applied. But again it's hard to know in each single case


that's true, thanks muk!


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## bryla (Jan 11, 2019)

hdsmile said:


> Again, I just want to listen a few good examples of the sound of a natural classical orchestra and nothing more.


Then try Decca...... https://www.deccaclassics.com/en/cat/
Honestly did you even google it?


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## hdsmile (Jan 11, 2019)

@bryla I know about it, thank you!

yes, it’s really hard to find reliable truthful records without any after processing effects, but if someone could share such information, I would be very grateful


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## re-peat (Jan 11, 2019)

I don't think we can generalize about certain record labels having a superior, or inferior, sound compared to the others. I have Decca recordings — Chailly's Beethoven cycle is alas a good example — which sound, to my ears, pretty bad (and certainly over-produced) and there are others which are fine. (Although Decca is certainly not the first name that comes to my mind when having to list as-a-rule-great-sounding-record-labels.) And the same goes for just about every other label. Today, even the budget labels can surprise you with a really good, natural sound, while some of the established audiophile labels let, on occasion, slip an average-sounding recording through their quality control net.

In answer to the OP though: a rather unique release, from a sonic/dynamic perspective that is, is Currentzis/MusicAeterna's recording of Stravinsky's Les Noces coupled with Tchaikovsky's violin concerto (with Kopatchinskaja as soloist), released on Sony Classical (which is another one of those music emporiums that sell audio-quality which can vary from the near unlistenable to the sublime).

The Currentzis, while definitely debatable from a performance perspective, is sonically genuinely interesting in that it is one of the very rare classical releases I know of where the production team appears to have attempted to preserve the natural dynamics of the orchestra. (One of the results being that, during all the ppp passages, particularly in the Tchaikovsky, you can barely hear the music at all, unless you pay really close attention or turn up the volume really loud.) You can find a few audio excerpts *here*, but if you prefer highres audio, let me know and I'll prepare you a fragment or two.

But that disc really is an exception, I believe. The sound and the dynamic range of an orchestra always needs to be tamed to some degree, if not for technical reasons — less an issue now than it used to be in the analog days —, then certainly for the sake of basic listening comfort.










_


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## ghostnote (Jan 11, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> You know, before samples (and the digital revolution), when TV and film music was recorded live, music was orchestrated so skillfully that the engineer barely touched the faders. He (rarely she in those days) would know when solos were coming up, but otherwise the music basically mixed itself.
> 
> Reading the title of this thread, it occurs to me that you should be able to get close to that Platonic ideal when writing for sampled orchestra just by using EQ and the right reverb.
> 
> Never going to happen, of course, but you'd think it could.





ghostnote said:


> I agree. Had the chance to see the desk of a recording session of a concert performance the other day. Had a little chat with the engineer and noticed that the only thing that he processed was indeed the singers. The orchestra is built in mind to take advantage of the full spectrum and simultaniously leave every instrument section its own space.
> 
> Mixing samples tough, is different.


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## SchnookyPants (Jan 11, 2019)

And then there's the 'processing' applied by Youtube.


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 11, 2019)

hdsmile said:


> Hi all!
> I wonder if there is a recording on youtube etc... of some natural orchestra recorded in great concert hall with excellent acoustics, but without processing any plugins such as compressors, expanders, exciters, etc...
> 
> thanks



The Solti-conducted Ring Cycle, Karajan's magnificent recordings of LvB's symphonies in the 70s, Bartok's String Quartets by the Emerson Q...mostly older recordings. Check this out (there might be a little compression post-production, but mostly I hear the room):


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## TGV (Jan 11, 2019)

Try this channel: it's from a Dutch broadcasting organization that organizes a concert every Saturday in the Concertgebouw, one of the finer venues, and broadcasts it live. There are also recordings in other venues, with some of the best ensembles and conductors. Here's a nice example:


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## hdsmile (Jan 11, 2019)

Thank you all for the very interesting answers and links!


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## Pablocrespo (Jan 11, 2019)

Let me ask, could you go to a local theater and listen to an orchestra live?
I know is not the same but the sound of a symphonic orchestra in a good theater is incomparable....almost anything in my opinion.


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## hdsmile (Jan 11, 2019)

No, unfortunately in my village are no theaters just kidding! the live performance is the best for this of course, but here obviously the question is a bit different.


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## jbuhler (Jan 11, 2019)

Parsifal666 said:


> The Solti-conducted Ring Cycle, Karajan's magnificent recordings of LvB's symphonies in the 70s, Bartok's String Quartets by the Emerson Q...mostly older recordings. Check this out (there might be a little compression post-production, but mostly I hear the room


Interesting you’d bring up the Solti Ring in this context since it was designed by Culshaw to be a studio recording using the capabilities of stereo recording technology and specifically not a transcription of a performance. 

This brings up one of my bugaboos about samples instruments. We don’t really model live sound of the orchestra with sample libraries. We model the sound of recordings (and the conventions of recording) with our libraries. I mean insofar as we seek “realism” we’re seeking the “realism” as it has passed through the conventions of recording and hearing an orchestra live will only get you so far in that respect. You have to also spend time listening to recordings of the orchestra and understand the conventions of the recorded orchestra sound. (Again, if that is the sound you are after.)


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## Pablocrespo (Jan 11, 2019)

then I would sugest to listen to recordings that were made for live broadcasting as the last one, maybe they are not very polished but I don´t think they do much to the sound.


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 11, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> Interesting you’d bring up the Solti Ring in this context since it was designed by Culshaw to be a studio recording using the capabilities of stereo recording technology and specifically not a transcription of a performance.



Yes, but the sessions were recorded as an ensemble live (albeit in the studio with the orchestra and singers). If you haven't yet, check out "The Golden Ring" a wonderful documentary on those Decca sessions that also happens to be quite moving (especially whenever Birgitt Nilsson stretches out those priceless, hallowed lungs).

I don't _hear_ (discern) outside reverb on those sessions, that's how good it is. It could pass for an auditorium, quite natural...perfect imo, especially the game-changing recording of *Gotterdammerung*.


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## josephspirits (Jan 11, 2019)

If you can't make it in person, I would suggest checking out the BSO broadcasts from one of the greatest Halls in the world;
https://www.bso.org/brands/bso/media/concert-broadcast-streams.aspx

Seems like you may only be able to listen to the current week's program live Saturday and Monday evenings at 8pm at the moment, due to ongoing negotiations, but I believe they normally would have programs archived as well, so maybe check back later if you can't tune in then.


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## jbuhler (Jan 11, 2019)

Parsifal666 said:


> Yes, but the sessions were recorded as an ensemble live (albeit in the studio with the orchestra and singers). If you haven't seen it yet, check out "The Golden Ring" a wonderful documentary on those Decca sessions that also happens to be quite moving (especially whenever Birgitt Nilsson stretches those diamond lungs).
> 
> I don't _hear_ (discern) outside reverb on those sessions, that's how good it is. It could pass for an auditorium, quite natural...perfect imo, especially the game-changing recording of *Gotterdammerung*.


I agree, and I adore those recordings—which I agree remain excellent specimens of the recorded orchestra/singers. It's just that the "realism" is constructed, and the recordings were put together with the idea of playback on a hi-fi stereo system. So the focus is not on the promicrophonic sound (the sound in the theater/studio before it enters the recording system) but managing every aspect of the production for the sound that will come out of the hi-fi system. And that's one reason I think these recordings make better exemplars for whatever it is that we do than do trips to the local symphony or live broadcasts. I mean, I like a good live orchestra concert as well as the next person, but the difference between that and the best two channel (or even surround sound) recording is vast. But I would say that recordings open up quite new possibilities, as there are things you can do with them that you can't in a theater (like send Alberich's voice spinning around the stereo field), and hearing the Ring in a movie theater at one of those live streaming things only reinforced to me how different the spatial treatment of the cinematic orchestra is (even using the same reproducing equipment), and I really wanted to hear my Wagner wallowing in glorious cinematic surround sound, rather than the more or less planar stereo field that the Met insisted on using.


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## Beat Kaufmann (Jan 15, 2019)

Why do so many of you believe that classical music would sound best when the instruments not are treated with effects? Anyone who has already recorded an orchestra knows how unspectacular everything sounds without any more "action". Incidentally, the more microphones have been involved, the more this "effect" occurs, because everything also compensates each other more or les as well.

So only with a good mix, with correct used EQs, compressors for solos and over the whole and a pinch of reverb the sound of an orchestra "wakes up". Only then does it sound the way we are used to it.

Example 1
Passage with tenor from the Requiem by Verdi *final Mix*
Passage with tenor from the Requiem by Verdi *without any effect, just as recorded*
_The live recording was in a church. The people who later hear the CD want to hear the sound of a church. and the tenor should not disappear in the orchestra sound with his quiet parts ... especially if customers hear the CD while driving a car..._

Example 2
Soloviolin with Orchestra (final mix)
Soloviolin with Orchestra (just as recorded)
Soloviolin with Orchestra (just as recorded and some Viny-Noises)

When you hear this last example, it actually sounds like the vinyl records from the 60ties. In the past, EQ and compression were mainly used to optimally fulfill the "tight" conditions of the vinyl record and not to make the solo violin more clear.

Maybe somebody mentions now: "There where definitely bad microphones used, otherwise the sound would be better." Because these are my recordings, I know that I only used microphones from Schoeps and Neumann...

By the way these where the effects I used for the Violin in the final mix:











The examples show as well that today mixing should give a kind of illusion. The illusion of the real concert house feeling and, in addition, even clearer sound conditions than we have in the concert hall. You do not really want the sound of row 12 at home. Just like the concerts are never filmed only from the row 12...No the soloist's nose hairs are filmed 

Beat


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 16, 2019)

Beat Kaufmann said:


> Passage with tenor from the Requiem by Verdi *without any effect, just as recorded*
> _The live recording was in a church. The people who later hear the CD want to hear the sound of a church. and the tenor should not disappear in the orchestra sound with his quiet parts ... especially if customers hear the CD while driving a car..._



This might sound both strange and dubious, but I markedly prefer the dry recording now.


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## sinkd (Jan 16, 2019)

Very interesting discussion. And thanks for the comparative examples, Beat. 

I agree that the Verdi is greatly improved with your excellent mix, but also think that the dry recording of the solo violin is really very nice without anything! It all depends somewhat on the taste of the client and what they are expecting. Spot mic mixing levels also come in to play. I have had to deliver mixes based on client's wishes that were much more processed than what I would have done if it were just up to me.


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## SergeD (Jan 16, 2019)

On the cd booklet: No reverberation has been added.


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## Beat Kaufmann (Jan 16, 2019)

Parsifal666 said:


> This might sound both strange and dubious, but I markedly prefer the dry recording now.


The without any effect is obviously your favourite. But...
My situation is that I have to go with the times and I can not produce a recording à la 1965. My customers do not want that. I have to look for current recordings. 

See, e.g. http://www.hdtracks.com/paris-opera-verdi-messa-da-requiem Listen to "Ingemisco".

Best
Beat


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## Beat Kaufmann (Jan 16, 2019)

SergeD said:


> On the cd booklet: No reverberation has been added.




To be honest, I listen to such a recording for a minute and that's it. It's not a pleasure for me (in terms of quality). I prefer the digital technology, including reverb effect.

Today's classical recordings suffer because far too many microphones are used. At the same time 1000 music snippets are taken. Then everything is patched together into a "dead" whole. Every life is missing, there are no real musical bows, etc. This synthetic and artificiality did not have the old recordings. Therefore, many people find the music of old vinyl records better than today's recordings. Thus, it is not the vinyl record itself, but the nature of the natural recording of that time.
That's why I specialized in live recordings. They combine the sound recording of the past (no cuts, few microphones) with today's technology:
https://www.musik-produktion-createc.ch/recording/bosl_jan18/ (&gt;&gt;&gt; If you want to hear to some of those results, it is up to you).
I claim that you like to hear such recordings more than once, because you always discover new things - because human errors and noises are not cut out.

Best
Beat


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## CT (Jan 16, 2019)

I love the naturalistic sound of certain classical lables like Telarc. A few well placed mic's, capturing the right balance of detail and space. If the acoustics are generous, there's no need to lay on more digitally.

Sure, you can produce anything, subtly or otherwise, and make it more "ideal," but sometimes it's great not to.


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## SergeD (Jan 16, 2019)

Beat,

It was just an answer to hdsmile looking for recordings without effects, this one has been done in year 1926


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## Seasharp (Mar 26, 2019)

hdsmile said:


> Hi all!
> I wonder if there is a recording on youtube etc... of some natural orchestra recorded in great concert hall with excellent acoustics, but without processing any plugins such as compressors, expanders, exciters, etc...
> 
> thanks



https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8084785--prokofiev-symphonies-nos-6-7

This site which is a great source for Classical music allows you to audition most CDs. Challenge Classics is a great label that records beautifully natural recordings.


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## Robert Kooijman (Mar 27, 2019)

FWIW, my all time favorite "natural" classical recording is the amazing Tallis Fantasia by Vaughn Williams, directed by William Boughton on the Nimbus label (NIM5019).

It's recording character (ambisonic) is very different from t.ex. Telarc or Chandos which are often artificially bright, using of quite a few spot mikes.

These early Nimbus recordings come IMO really close to a genuine, atmospheric concert hall experience.


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## rudi (Apr 6, 2019)

[QUOTE="jbuhler, post: 4339261, member: 13050"
This brings up one of my bugaboos about samples instruments. We don’t really model live sound of the orchestra with sample libraries. We model the sound of recordings (and the conventions of recording) with our libraries. I mean insofar as we seek “realism” we’re seeking the “realism” as it has passed through the conventions of recording and hearing an orchestra live will only get you so far in that respect. You have to also spend time listening to recordings of the orchestra and understand the conventions of the recorded orchestra sound. (Again, if that is the sound you are after.)[/QUOTE]

Exactly - the only way we have to listen to an orchestra, or any other piece of music, other than live is via a recording chain which entails a lot of decisions and choices. 

Because of the properties of mics, recording equipment, room acoustics, mike placement, etc. a myriad decisions have to be made, based on experience, style of music, conventions, and taste.

It'd be wonderful if you could simply substitute a pair of "perfect microphones" to replace a listener's ears... but despite our best attempts such technology doesn't exist. Each microphone has its own "signature" and responds to sound differently. Even binaural recordings made with "dummy heads" to mimic the way our heads and ear shapes effect sound only work to a limited degree.

Every recording is a representation - based on technical and artistic compromise.


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