# SampleModeling Flutes are out 4 of 'em Piccolo-Bass flute!



## reddognoyz (Apr 28, 2014)

Got 'em, using them now. Jazz and classical and ethnic settings. super playable! check it! Be warned, the demo is mostly resolutely Fusion Jazz. I felt I needed to set them back on the stage a bit. I rolled out some of the lows to get them to sit with my template They play great and I highly recommend using the TEC breath controller with them.


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## artsoundz (Apr 28, 2014)

Just checked this out on SM's site. Cool video.

It even sounded like a flute sometimes.

Maybe someone will update The Legend Of Zelda and use this instead of the ocarina...sounds pretty close.


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## constaneum (Apr 28, 2014)

Hmm....since they've released their woodwinds and brasses, wonder whether they'll release strings soon. Soooooo looking forward to their solo violin...Hopefully it'll be a Kontakt base instrument.


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## reddognoyz (Apr 28, 2014)

artsoundz @ Mon Apr 28 said:


> Just checked this out on SM's site. Cool video.
> 
> It even sounded like a flute sometimes.
> 
> Maybe someone will update The Legend Of Zelda and use this instead of the ocarina...sounds pretty close.



Kinder words have been said. So.... Does that make me a jerk for saying it was good? 

What did you think of the alto flute? Or the piccolo? Or the bass flute? Haven't heard 'em have you.

My saying the demo is resolutely fusion jazz might have been a gentler way of saying it sounded, to me at least, (and I guess to you as well), a little cheesy. Certainly doesn't highlight what it is capable of, and it was played very much like a keyboard in that demo. 

Tell you what, don't buy it, but please refrain from flaming product's here on this forum. Feel free to do it elsewhere. We support VI developers and I, for one,rely on them to make my living. 

I bought them, I played them, I liked them, I stuck them in the template of the Disney show I am scoring right now, and tomorrow I'm going walk into studio B at my facility and I will put them in the template of the show that I'm scoring for Nickelodeon. 

I have the Berlin WW's I have Cinewinds, I have Hollywood Winds from EASTWEST. I have the Retro flute, I have the Dan Dean woods with sips scripts. I have the vienna winds. I have lots of Woodwinds. 
The SAMPLEMODELING flutes fill a void for me., and in fact all their products fill a void for me. I use them with the TEC breath controller and they are expressive and lively enough to play alone or in a very exposed intimate settings. They are capable of playing comic cues like no other sample library i've ever used. I can write things for them that I can't for other sample libraries. 

I do have to say that I take it a bit personally when I say these VI's are good and you directly contradict me in front of my peers here on this forum in a somewhat belittling fashion. Perhaps you were belittling the product, but I feel you were in some degree belittling me as well. So, as Rtec once said here, be a good little fellow and bugger off.


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## dannthr (Apr 28, 2014)

I listened to all the mp3 demos and I feel like there's potential here but I think the mix on almost all of these demos are fairly unfavorable to the instrument.

I don't know how to describe it--these are the best modeled flutes I've ever heard--but almost every modeled woodwind library I've ever heard, including SMs feels... chunky or thick, like the reeds are too hard or made of plastic or something. That's the feeling I get as a woodwind player listening to every modeled woodwind instrument I've ever listened to.

Is anyone else hearing what I'm hearing? It's like a thickness.

I wish every virtual instrument I owned was as playable, expressive, and flexible as the SM instruments--but I can't help wishing that the SM instruments sounded like other virtual instruments.

Maybe it's just a mix thing on these particular demos, I would love to hear how you're making it work, Stuart--or it might be interesting to take a naked/dry wav file and test my own mixing paradigm on it.


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## reddognoyz (Apr 28, 2014)

I noticed that as well, that thickness you're talking about. I auditioned them with another composer and we compared them to a couple of other flutes we have in rotation, and they are decidedly chunkier. I think it has to do with the way they record them, so close and so dry. I almost immediately subtracted a whole lot of low and a healthy dose of low mids from them, and it pushed them right back out of my face and closer to the sound of the other mid mic sampled flutes. 

This is a 1.0 version and I am wondering/hoping they will incorporate some sort of distancing matrix like they did on their latest trombone release.


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## Stefano Lucato (Apr 28, 2014)

Hi all.
I think the choice between sample libraries or modeled virtual instruments is made according to needs. The libraries use pre-recorded real articulations, the modeled instruments allow you to create your own articulation, thus also all the behavioral interactions are generated depending on what you play. The videodemo aims to show that these articulations are created in real time.
About the sound.. Probably I could make a different mix .
Thanks for all constructive criticism  

Stefano
SWAM team


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## pavolbrezina (Apr 28, 2014)

Finally Flute for jazz compositions


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## artsoundz (Apr 28, 2014)

reddognoyz @ Mon Apr 28 said:


> artsoundz @ Mon Apr 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Just checked this out on SM's site. Cool video.
> ...



Im sorry you took my comments personally. They werent directed at you at all. You are reading something into my comments that werent there. At all....didnt even think about you. So, thanks for making the personal comnents to me. Im listening and thinking about you now, I can assure you.

I could care less what you are using them for no matter how much posturing. I dont care if you score the Pope's farts. They just sound like an ocarina part of the time. They remind me of samples about 20 years ago. There are definitely moments when they sound great, no doubt. Not nearly as consistent as Orange Tree or Tari's flute. 
The playing by Stefano was killer as usual. But there are PROBLEMS....

Im just baffled how SM cant hear this. Same thing happened with their alto and , probably less so, the Tenor. Really odd coming from guys who claim they know their craft. Especially after the trumpet, bone etc. 

Sorry to have challenged you. I'll be more careful next time.
Disney, huh? Arent you a bright shiny penny!


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## Saxer (Apr 29, 2014)

i have no problem with any 'fatness factor' at all. as a flute player recording myself playing flute close to the microphone real often i must say: it just sounds like this.

certainly i can hear a difference to a real flute in the demo from time to time. but it's the keyboard playing style, not the sound.

if you record real players as real world addition to the sample orchestra from time to time you just have to mix them the same way. cut mids and some highs, find the right early reflections and a nice reverb tail. sometimes a short delay before the early reflections help too.


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## Ben H (Apr 29, 2014)

Bought em, love em.

The C Flute has already gone straight into my template. I suspect that the Alto and Bass Flutes will too, once I've had time to properly compare them with what I currently use.

As to the comment about them being "too thick/fat" just EQ some of it out. Personally I much prefer my flutes to have more body, because you can always take some out. It's always much harder adding body back in when there is not enough in there to begin with.


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## Casiquire (Apr 29, 2014)

I'm firmly on the SampleModeling bandwagon. I just love me some S&M (couldn't resist. I'm immature. Moving on...) I saw the video and heard the demos and my first impression was that maybe things just aren't mixed the way I'd mix them, and I wanted to hear how they work in the hands of real users, so thanks a lot for this thread which sort of settles my doubts.

I'd love to hear this in a nice lyrical setting. Sure there are other libraries that do this well, like the 8dio offering, and I've been able to get great results from VSL's winds. But SM is absolutely the way to go IMO so if anybody has any experience with an expressive lyrical flute line using this library please post it or let me know how it worked.


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## jamwerks (Apr 29, 2014)

Pretty amazing what SM instruments can do. I agree with some here that this might not be your first choice for flutes in an orchestral context. But for any other genre, an excellent choice.

Big spectrum of possible arts, all which seem to sound very musical! o-[][]-o


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## mozart999uk (Apr 29, 2014)

What's the BC being used in the video?


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## Stefano Lucato (Apr 29, 2014)

mozart999uk @ Tue Apr 29 said:


> What's the BC being used in the video?


Is a first prototype of TEControl. I had only the USB sensor so I printed the mouthpiece with my 3D printer. The final product i think is furtherly improved… 
TEControl BC is a very good device !!
Buy it without doubt..


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## mozart999uk (Apr 29, 2014)

Thanks Stefano. Does it react quicker than the BC3a from yamaha? Seems like it does.....


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## Stefano Lucato (Apr 29, 2014)

mozart999uk @ Tue Apr 29 said:


> Thanks Stefano. Does it react quicker than the BC3a from yamaha? Seems like it does.....


It's very responsive !
With the new SWAM feature "trigger mode fast" it reacts so precisely that I can play vibratos, rhythm and flutter with my tongue. 
It's very funny.


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## mozart999uk (Apr 29, 2014)

Thanks. I noticed that in the demo. Very impressive!


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## Heath (Apr 29, 2014)

I'd really like to hear a demo of Syrinx using SM Flutes. That piece should be the gold standard test of a sampled flute's authenticity. Very few developers, if any, have demo'd their flutes with Syrinx - something that I suspect may indicate that it could be a bar too high.

Any chance?

I'm a huge admirer of SM's instruments, BTW. Those guys are leading the way as far as I'm concerned. Other developers (VSL particularly) are unwise not to take a similar approach.

P.S. The flute solo part that begins Prelude To The Afternoon Of A Faun would be another gold standard test.


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## Walid F. (Apr 29, 2014)

Dear lord, the bass flute sounds amazing :O!


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## Leandro Gardini (Apr 29, 2014)

I've just added those flutes in my template.
This product is exactly what i needed. Now I can play my own tonal/atonal runs.


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## reddognoyz (Apr 29, 2014)

[/quote]

'll be more careful next time.
Disney, huh? Arent you a bright shiny penny![/quote]


yes yes busted bragging, guilty as charged. It was late and I overreacted last night to your Prisoner of Zelda comment. The point I should have been clearer with was that in the context I am using them in, Kids cartoons, the Samplemodeling instruments are friggin' perfect. Of course I was all puffed up in selfrightous indignation that you would dare contradict me on what I deemed to be a really good product. I have been waiting for the sample modeling flutes for quite a while and you yucked my yum.

With the flutes I rolled out a lot of the low end across the board and they sound much more in scale to me. and they are sooo playable, the other orchestral library woods are often too stiff and and ambient to play solo lines effectively in a more intimate setting, the samplemodeling instruments excel at this. 

I reiterate, please save your unconstructive flames for other forums. I rely on this one to keep up to date with the newest VI's and we have the developers chiming in here all the time, let's keep it easy like Sunday morning.


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## apessino (Apr 29, 2014)

Finally! 8) 

My template is now 100% SampleModeling for winds and brass - whatever shortcomings the instruments might have in sonority (if any... I am still researching and trying to make them sound the way I want them) they more than make up for them with unmatched playability and expressiveness. I loooove sequencing with these instruments... as much as I find dealing with ordinary sample libraries a chore.

I just happened to go to the SM website yesterday morning, saw the flutes and went WTF? Bam! Ordered... didn't even notice there is a discount code for previous owners. :lol: 

I hope they make a set of orchestral percussion instruments at some point... seems to me like it would be one of the easiest groups to simulate (certainly compared to a cello!). Infinite round robins, physically correct resonance, etc. pretty please?


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## AC986 (Apr 29, 2014)

I just listened to the demos on the SM site and I think the main selling point is the breath control that's available. Not entirely sold on the sound. Maybe they need some work, more reverb etc don't know. They sound a tad 2 dimensional maybe?


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## artsoundz (Apr 29, 2014)

[quote="reddognoyz @ Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:30 am"
you yucked my yum.
.[/quote]
Back atcha...
A few words- I could have been more constructive. I read your post and got excited. Went to website and listened to the first video and was surprised.... Expected more from SM. Then looked at Stefanos and within a few seconds thought, ok thats much better. Pretty cool..but then heard some more strangness. It seemed to go in and out of believable. 
Still hopeful, I listened to all the demos. Same thing- great moments alternating with obvious samples. 
By that time I was annoyed. my first post was way more tongue in cheek, roll my eyes. Once again, SM didnt get it right but the fanboy syndrome kicks in. 

The thing is there is a phenonema going on here. All SM products are incredibly expressive and very good music can be realized. Its easy to lose perspective because they are so musical. But they are presented as realistic instruments and unfortunately, some of the instruments dont cut it. There is this strange frequency in the reed instruments that just make them sound odd. I wish I could be more helpful- not sure what it is. 
Lastly, dont expect me to jump on the politics bandwagon. While I will consider my words more carefully, I dont have a problem challenging the SM status quo. They should know better. Its baffling to me. 
Maybe modeling isnt the answer after all? You think it would be given the success of the Trumpet and a couple others.


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## renegade (Apr 29, 2014)

Here's a little impro with some more reverb (no EQ). Please take into account that this is played without any editing, left hand on modwheel (I've switched C1 and C11), right hand on the keyboard. Just trying out different stuff to see how it sounds.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12948366/SMFluteTest.mp3

I think this is an amazing instrument...as with all SM stuff, the play ability just makes it so much fun to play with...


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## artsoundz (Apr 29, 2014)

Sounds very good. Much, much better.


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## AC986 (Apr 29, 2014)

Well..........

Very nice playing ^ but I think my ears must be shot to shreds because it just doesn't sound any better than anything else. But the wind control has to be a big plus.

Needs to be a shoot out with the other wind libraries. I would be surprised if the sound is better or even as good as say, VSL.


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## PerryD (Apr 29, 2014)

All the flutes have a great deal of tone shaping tools on board. There are also several presets for each instrument to start from. I just did a quick experiment with the C flute and played some random stuff with a lot of the bass rolled off using an external EQ. I personally prefer to shape the sound within the instrument but here is an mp3 of what I just played. I used no compression, so it's a bit on the quiet side.
I haven't found anything more gratifying to play in real time than the stuff from Sample Modeling. Just my opinion of course. :D 
-Perry-

https://soundcloud.com/perryleed/flute-eq-test


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## ch4rles (Apr 29, 2014)

Stefano Lucato @ Tue Apr 29 said:


> mozart999uk @ Tue Apr 29 said:
> 
> 
> > What's the BC being used in the video?
> ...



I have it too and I completely agree.

In your video, the part starting around 1:38 is amazing. You have my admiration.

http://youtu.be/5j1CUY2ELtE?t=1m38s

Regarding the mouthpiece, the optional TEControl headset has a good one, yamaha-style with adjustable airflow. I have it and I think it's a great addition to the sensor unit.

http://www.tecontrol.se/products/breath ... er-headset


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## renegade (Apr 29, 2014)

adriancook @ Tue 29 Apr said:


> Well..........
> 
> Very nice playing ^ but I think my ears must be shot to shreds because it just doesn't sound any better than anything else. But the wind control has to be a big plus.
> 
> Needs to be a shoot out with the other wind libraries. I would be surprised if the sound is better or even as good as say, VSL.



I'm not quite sure what "shot to shreds" translates to (I'm danish)?

Does it sound better than all the others (VSL, BWW, HOW and so on)? I don't know. I could do a comparison and I probably will. But even if it doesn't, it's versatility and playability is just another world than any other sampled flute instruments. No funny legato intervals, no uncontrollable vibrato at the wrong places, no inconsistency in the dynamic behavior...to me, that really means a lot. So I'm more than willing to spend some time making it sound as good as possible.



PerryD @ Tue 29 Apr said:


> All the flutes have a great deal of tone shaping tools on board. There are also several presets for each instrument to start from. I just did a quick experiment with the C flute and played some random stuff with a lot of the bass rolled off using an external EQ. I personally prefer to shape the sound within the instrument but here is an mp3 of what I just played. I used no compression, so it's a bit on the quiet side.
> I haven't found anything more gratifying to play in real time than the stuff from Sample Modeling. Just my opinion of course. :D
> -Perry-
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/perryleed/flute-eq-test



Nice one  And I agree


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## reddognoyz (Apr 29, 2014)

I noodled with the c-flute using the tek breath controller. Just a sloppy pass to show the expressiveness. I hi passed this pretty hard and it has my cartoon mastering strip on it so it's pretty bright and squished

https://soundcloud.com/stuart-kollmorge ... -tec-bc-02


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## Ginharbringer (Apr 29, 2014)

Just got the flutes, and they are wonderful. First of all, the static sound without vibrato or much dynamic change (like in a few of the demos) doesn't sound particularly impressive, but when you begin to play it like a real flute the sound comes alive. First, the vibrato is spot on and helps to make the sound less "hard", second, the timbre change between the softest and loudest notes is very well done and seamless, third, the automatic overblow on high velocity notes is very natural and sounds completely flute-like, fourth, there are small touches to the sound, like if you play a high note and slowly back off on the expression CC, at the softest point the notes begins to "sink" to its fundamental pitch. Runs sound exactly like they do in my EWQL Symphonic Orchestra prerecorded flute runs patch, just drier and closer. Maybe it's just that the flutes are better suited to the SM modeling approach than the other woodwinds, or that their techniques have progressed, but I think the flutes are definitely one of SM's stronger releases.


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## mozart999uk (Apr 30, 2014)

ch4rles @ Tue Apr 29 said:


> Stefano Lucato @ Tue Apr 29 said:
> 
> 
> > mozart999uk @ Tue Apr 29 said:
> ...



Do you guys use the USB or midi (with usb) version? I've heard of some problems using the USB......


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## Ginharbringer (Apr 30, 2014)

mozart999uk @ Wed Apr 30 said:


> Do you guys use the USB or midi (with usb) version? I've heard of some problems using the USB......



I use the USB version, I've had no problems in Reaper with it.


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## Casiquire (Apr 30, 2014)

Some of these newer demos being posted sound better--there are still moments where it almost sounds like a reed instrument but I'd bet that's all down to EQ. I'll probably wind up getting these.

Any chance of scripting up an ensemble of 3 or 4 flutes? It would be very helpful for those classical mockups.


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## ch4rles (Apr 30, 2014)

mozart999uk @ Wed Apr 30 said:


> Do you guys use the USB or midi (with usb) version? I've heard of some problems using the USB......



I've had it for a few months now and never had a single issue. Rock solid. 

It was recognized immediately and worked straight out of the box, didn't even need to install a driver, I think it uses the built in operating system driver. By default it sends CC2 on channel 1 but that can be adjusted with the manufacturer's software utility, which is very simple but intuitive and robust.


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## renegade (Apr 30, 2014)

Did some comparison and thought I would share it here:
5 different flutes:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12948366/FluteTest1.mp3
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12948366/FluteTest2.mp3
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12948366/FluteTest3.mp3
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12948366/FluteTest4.mp3
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12948366/FluteTest5.mp3

Feat. HOW, BWW exp B, EWQLSO, VSL (just the simple kontakt factory version) and SM (not necessarily in that order of course  )


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## mozart999uk (Apr 30, 2014)

I really hope no 5 isn't SM ....


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## mozart999uk (Apr 30, 2014)

ch4rles @ Wed Apr 30 said:


> mozart999uk @ Wed Apr 30 said:
> 
> 
> > Do you guys use the USB or midi (with usb) version? I've heard of some problems using the USB......
> ...



Thanks that's very useful to know. I don't particularly trust USB  Might get the UNI version just to be on the safe side


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## mozart999uk (Apr 30, 2014)

Casiquire @ Wed Apr 30 said:


> Some of these newer demos being posted sound better--there are still moments where it almost sounds like a reed instrument but I'd bet that's all down to EQ....



Yes it almost sounds closer to the SM clarinet at times.....


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## renegade (Apr 30, 2014)

mozart999uk @ Wed 30 Apr said:


> I really hope no 5 isn't SM ....



...because it really sucks, I assume. Thanks for listening and commenting. However it would be great if you could describe _what_ you think is horrible about no. 5. Maybe something can be done about it...maybe not. Who knows.


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## mozart999uk (Apr 30, 2014)

I think what initially struck me was the "pop" noises on the joins......


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## Saxer (Apr 30, 2014)

Heath @ 29.4.2014 said:


> I'd really like to hear a demo of Syrinx using SM Flutes. That piece should be the gold standard test of a sampled flute's authenticity. Very few developers, if any, have demo'd their flutes with Syrinx - something that I suspect may indicate that it could be a bar too high.
> 
> Any chance?



a little try: SM flute with windcontroller. no vibrato added (everything played)

https://soundcloud.com/saxer/syrinx-first-minute


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## mozart999uk (Apr 30, 2014)

Nice playing with the wx7 there! 

However, definitely some weirdness going on with the "dock" noise on the joins and and sounds more like the SM clarinet on the c# around 20s in....


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## aaronnt1 (Apr 30, 2014)

renegade @ Wed 30 Apr said:


> Did some comparison and thought I would share it here:
> 5 different flutes:
> 
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12948366/FluteTest1.mp3
> ...



1 & 3 sound great. 2 sounds terrible to me, totally fake sounding. Would be interested to know which is which.


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## renegade (Apr 30, 2014)

1: Orch. Tools
2: VSL (ultra light Kontakt factory version)
3: HOW
4: SO
5: SM

I do think, in this quick comparison, the SM flute do not sound as good as some of the others. It's getting too "woody" especially in the lower register. I miss some metal and airy tone. The legato feels great to play, but the sound is not quite there (maybe the pop noises, as you mentioned mozart999uk). Maybe some further EQ/reverb adjustments can overcome some some of these issues.

What you can't hear is how much I had to struggle to get a decent result with these different flutes, or how fun it was to play.

SO and VSL has no legato so they obviously requires some editing to get it to sound legato-ish (note start/ending/velocity adjustments). OT and HOW both have great sound I think. But I'll just never get use to the OT adaptive legato system. It really frustrates me! And moving notes and CC data forward/backwards after playing is time consuming and tiresome. HOW flute behaves way better IMO.

The problem with traditional samples are that the performance to a certain degree is locked. If you play a line you might be lucky that the inherited swells/vibrato/various irregularities/noises just fits. But if it doesn't, you are stuck. I like that that the SM stuff doesn't have these limitations.

This test is a rather simple performance. If I did another test with a combination of slow and fast passages, overblown stuff, short notes, flutter and other features...you'll at least need a lot of patches (and time!) to compete with what the SM flute can do.


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## Daryl (Apr 30, 2014)

The VSL Flute has had legato for 10 years, so I don't see how you can be using a version that doesn't.

D


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## renegade (Apr 30, 2014)

Daryl @ Wed 30 Apr said:


> The VSL Flute has had legato for 10 years, so I don't see how you can be using a version that doesn't.
> 
> D



The Kontakt factory version? Anyway, maybe it's not fair to include VSL in this test, as they have a lot more to offer than this scraped version. It's just the only one I have.


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## Daryl (Apr 30, 2014)

renegade @ Wed Apr 30 said:


> Daryl @ Wed 30 Apr said:
> 
> 
> > The VSL Flute has had legato for 10 years, so I don't see how you can be using a version that doesn't.
> ...


Ah yes, only 16bit as well. Perhaps use WIPs on it instead.

D


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## rottoy (Apr 30, 2014)

The SM Bass flute demo actually sounded really good.
Still some oddities in the transitions, 
but overall a nice tone.


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## brunodegazio (Apr 30, 2014)

Someone earlier mentioned Debussy's Syrinx, so I recorded it using the SWAM flute, played with EWI-4000. Minimal editing, just comping takes. 

The playability of the SWAM instrument is excellent, but the tone is sometimes a little reedy, especially the E-flat a tenth above middle C. I've overplayed some of the accents, vibrato and other performance effects in order to test out the instrument. "OverBlow" mode was on, which makes it sound a bit unnatural at times (at least for classical performance like this.)

I also rolled off some low frequency and added extra reverb (to match a live recording I had.)

[flash width=450 height=110 loop=false]http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F147214521&secret_url=false[/flash]

(Thanks Mahlon for getting the embedded Soundcloud player to work.)

https://soundcloud.com/bruno-degazio/sy ... de-debussy


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## Stefano Lucato (Apr 30, 2014)

renegade @ Wed Apr 30 said:


> Did some comparison and thought I would share it here:
> 5 different flutes:
> 
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12948366/FluteTest1.mp3
> ...



Thanx for the comparison test  

About legatos... 
Without having done a deep analysis, I think to approach the other examples you need to decrease a bit the dynamics before the transitions. 
As occur with the real instrument, you can play legato basically in 2 different ways: 
1 holding your breath steady (obtaining hard legatos), 
2 or playing the transition preceded by a decrease of dynamics (expressive legatos). 
This is one of the interesting aspects of the modeling instruments. 

Stefano
SWAM Team


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## Mahlon (Apr 30, 2014)

brunodegazio @ Wed Apr 30 said:


> (trying to figure out how to embed the Souncloud player here. Direct link below if it doesn't work.)
> 
> [<iframe width="100%" height="166" scrolling="no" frameborder="no" src="https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/147214521&amp;color=ff5500&amp;auto_play=false&amp;hide_related=false&amp;show_artwork=true"></iframe>]



Bruno,

Try this code. Replace the XXXXXXXXX after "tracks%2F" with your own code number from soundcloud. Then put the whole thing in brackets [ ].

flash width=450 height=110 loop=false]http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2FXXXXXXXXX&secret_url=false[/flash

EDIT: Oops, also... copy that code above and take it into a text editor, you'll find space between the "o" and the "u" of the second "soundcloud". You'll need to delete that space.

Mahlon


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## renegade (Apr 30, 2014)

Stefano Lucato @ Wed 30 Apr said:


> renegade @ Wed Apr 30 said:
> 
> 
> > Did some comparison and thought I would share it here:
> ...



Thanks! I'll try that. Maybe that's also why those who use windcontrollers gets better results than I am...I have to practice


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## Heath (Apr 30, 2014)

brunodegazio @ Wed Apr 30 said:


> Someone earlier mentioned Debussy's Syrinx, so I recorded it using the SWAM flute, played with EWI-4000. Minimal editing, just comping takes.



Yeah, that was me. Thanks for taking the time to do this. Impressive playing. This is the most useful demo I've heard so far. It certainly demonstrates the instrument's potential expressiveness and "humanity". The Akai controller was important to this it seems. Now I'm doubly glad I bought the USB version a while back for the SM Horn and clarinets.

The SM flute sounds very good, I'd say. I seriously doubt any other library could pull this piece off with as much expression. But I also get the feeling that it will be another 5 to 10 years before this technology will be truly indistinguishable from the real thing. At the moment, as brilliant as it is, it's still ever so slightly in Uncanny Valley. 

Meantime, it's the best flute I've heard since VSL's range and should work beautifully in conjunction with them.

Thanks again.


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## Heath (Apr 30, 2014)

Saxer @ Wed Apr 30 said:


> a little try: SM flute with windcontroller. no vibrato added (everything played)
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/saxer/syrinx-first-minute



Oops! Sorry Saxer I didn't see your demo before I replied to Bruno's version. Thanks a lot for this. My general observations remain the same.


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## apessino (Apr 30, 2014)

brunodegazio @ Wed Apr 30 said:


> Someone earlier mentioned Debussy's Syrinx, so I recorded it using the SWAM flute, played with EWI-4000. Minimal editing, just comping takes.
> 
> The playability of the SWAM instrument is excellent, but the tone is sometimes a little reedy, especially the E-flat a tenth above middle C. I've overplayed some of the accents, vibrato and other performance effects in order to test out the instrument. "OverBlow" mode was on, which makes it sound a bit unnatural at times (at least for classical performance like this.)
> 
> ...



Great playing! It sounds amazing to me... the tone is still not as "warm" as I would like, especially in the low register, but the detailing and the richness of the performance are damn impossible to match with traditional samples.


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## mozart999uk (Apr 30, 2014)

Stefano Lucato @ Wed Apr 30 said:


> About legatos...
> Without having done a deep analysis, I think to approach the other examples you need to decrease a bit the dynamics before the transitions.
> As occur with the real instrument, you can play legato basically in 2 different ways:
> 1 holding your breath steady (obtaining hard legatos),
> ...



Stefano, would you feel up to commenting about the legatos in the version that was posted earlier?

https://soundcloud.com/bruno-degazio/sy ... de-debussy

The player obviously plays very expressively with the wind controller but there's still a noticeable "dock" on some of the joins. (most noticeable in the first 10 seconds) I wonder if there may be a way to smooth those out? A way to adjust the transitions on the software perhaps?


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## mozart999uk (Apr 30, 2014)

apessino @ Wed Apr 30 said:


> [
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/bruno-degazio/sy ... de-debussy



Great playing! It sounds amazing to me... the tone is still not as "warm" as I would like, especially in the low register, but the detailing and the richness of the performance are damn impossible to match with traditional samples.[/quote]

I agree. I can't imagine samples getting anywhere close in terms of phrasing / expressiveness and articulation.....A great player (as Bruno obviously is) helps enormously too!


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## Casiquire (Apr 30, 2014)

Both Syrinx demos sound a lot better. Saxer's has a bit more reediness to it but they're both much better than the previous demos we've heard. I'm feeling better and better about the flutes as time goes by.


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## Daryl (Apr 30, 2014)

mozart999uk @ Wed Apr 30 said:


> The player obviously plays very expressively with the wind controller but there's still a noticeable "dock" on some of the joins. (most noticeable in the first 10 seconds) I wonder if there may be a way to smooth those out? A way to adjust the transitions on the software perhaps?


That can easily be sorted out by increasing the portamento time and getting rid of the overblow.

D


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## reddognoyz (Apr 30, 2014)

I think of the 4 flutes, the c-flute actually is the one with the least amount of "fluteyness" to it, at least while static. I am still very happy with the results, make no mistake, but I like the tone of the dan dean flute, for instance, more, but it has it's vibrato and performance baked in, I am working with a breath controller and haven't been able to find the appropriate rate for the flute vibrato yet. I am not a wind play, but I'm getting better at using the breath contrloer every day


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## Stefano Lucato (Apr 30, 2014)

mozart999uk @ Wed Apr 30 said:


> Stefano, would you feel up to commenting about the legatos in the version that was posted earlier?


Mine is a very modest and personal opinion. :oops: 
I just listened to different versions of Synrix on youtube, and I noticed that everyone plays the legatos in a different way according to their own interpretation, somebody plays very percussive legatos, others really smooth. 
I'm not a great musician, but it seems to me he played legato in a middle way interpretation. 
Again, it's a very modest and personal opinion.  

Stefano
SWAM Team


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## lelepar (Apr 30, 2014)

> That can easily be sorted out by increasing the portamento time and getting rid of the overblow.



Also, try increasing the "Auto Expr" slider in the "Options" page (leaving the legato type set to Expr).

Remember that the legato transition time is controlled by the velocity (keyboard) or CC5 (wind controllers), so, if you want a smooth legato you have to play at low velocity/CC5.
Of course, preparing the note change with an expression decrease will give a better result.

Emanuele Parravicini
SWAM team


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## Stefano Lucato (Apr 30, 2014)

.
Always about Legatos…
Listened to different interpretations the smoothness doesn't seem to be always in the same intervals.
I compared only the first notes but in General:

These seem to have smoother legatos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTVEwfzOMB0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYi7FG5Yf28

These seem to have more often a "percussive" legato
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw53VrbI4l0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Mg8JiFDzk4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz5ouH8D6Fw

Stefano
SWAM team


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## brunodegazio (Apr 30, 2014)

Thanks everyone for the compliments on the Syrinx performance. And thanks, Mahlon, for helping with the embedding code. 

Heath, I think you're right about the EWI being a necessary part of the performance. Would be hard to get the range of expression without it. In particular the Bite Controller allows a good simulation of diaphragm vibrato which is needed for this piece.[/img]

To follow up on a couple of the comments made here, here's Syrinx again, but this version has the OverBlow button turned off, and Transition Time set to CC05 value of 31, which seems to get rid of the 'popping' during note transitions heard in the previous version. I also tweaked the MIDI a little and generally pulled the dynamic down on the whole performance by about one marking (i.e. f down to mf, mf down to mp, etc.)

I think the result is much closer to a restrained classical performance, the slower transition times seems to eliminate the popping that some people were complaining about in the various demos posted here. 

[flash width=450 height=110 loop=false]http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F147298689&secret_url=false[/flash]


https://soundcloud.com/bruno-degazio/sw ... ransitions


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## Stefano Lucato (Apr 30, 2014)

Very very Nice Bruno !! 



brunodegazio @ Thu May 01 said:


> I think the result is much closer to a restrained classical performance, the slower transition times seems to eliminate the popping that some people were complaining about in the various demos posted here.


Now your last demo seems to have much smoother legatos than the second examples I posted above. :D

Stefano
SWAm team


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## dannthr (Apr 30, 2014)

That sounds really nice, Bruno!

Varying the transition times might help to naturalize the performance as well--thinking of speed of finger movement.


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## mozart999uk (May 1, 2014)

Thanks Stefano et al for your replies / posts. Very interesting and useful.....


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## brunodegazio (May 1, 2014)

Thanks Stefano. And thanks for making such a great a great instrument (notice I say 'instrument' and not 'library' !) It is a delight to play. 

On first playing it, one thing that caught me by surprise was how much it responded like the Yamaha VL1 synth, which for years has been my "gold-standard" for synth playability. (If you're not familiar with it, it was a physical-modelling synthesizer in the late 1990s and 2000s. Fantastic playability with a Wind controller, but unfortunately Yamaha orphaned it.) 

Yours is the first sample-based instrument I've played that feels as rewarding as a physical-modelling synth. Perhaps not quite as "alive" and unpredictable, but just as responsive and controllable.


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## Mahlon (May 1, 2014)

Bruno and Saxer, both Syrinxes are satisfyingly expressive. Thanks for doing these demos. Bruno, the second one you posted really sounds good. I'm not hopped up on the timbre of the instrument itself, but I 'spec EQ could make it whatever is needed.

As for comparison with the best of straight samples, check out the VSL demo of Syrinx -- it's pretty stunning. And I assume it takes a lot of work to get there. But, the potential for expressiveness is probably exhausted in the VSL demo whereas Sample Modeling expression is open ended. The VSL demo is outstanding, all the same. And that's their Flute I; Flute 2 has an even better, warmer tone to me.

http://www.vsl.co.at/Player2.aspx?Lang=1&DemoID=4668

Mahlon


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## renegade (May 2, 2014)

brunodegazio @ Thu 01 May said:


> Thanks everyone for the compliments on the Syrinx performance. And thanks, Mahlon, for helping with the embedding code.
> 
> Heath, I think you're right about the EWI being a necessary part of the performance. Would be hard to get the range of expression without it. In particular the Bite Controller allows a good simulation of diaphragm vibrato which is needed for this piece.[/img]
> 
> ...



That sounds amazing! Would love to see the midi for this performance, if you will share?


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## Bohrium (May 2, 2014)

brunodegazio @ Thu May 01 said:


> On first playing it, one thing that caught me by surprise was how much it responded like the Yamaha VL1 synth, which for years has been my "gold-standard" for synth playability. (If you're not familiar with it, it was a physical-modelling synthesizer in the late 1990s and 2000s. Fantastic playability with a Wind controller, but unfortunately Yamaha orphaned it.)
> 
> Yours is the first sample-based instrument I've played that feels as rewarding as a physical-modelling synth. Perhaps not quite as "alive" and unpredictable, but just as responsive and controllable.



Just interested ... Have you ever tried some of the Wallander stuff?
I found them to be very playable with a breath controller, too.

Not to give the wrong impression. I own almost everything SM created.


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## brunodegazio (May 2, 2014)

> Just interested ... Have you ever tried some of the Wallander stuff?



Yes, I have the complete set. You're right that they respond very nicely to breath controller, especially the low brass (the Cimbasso is fantastic!) and horns, IMO. 

Most of the instruments work fine in a broad orchestral setting, but an exposed or unaccompanied solo like the Syrinx show up the lack of detail in the sound. The attacks are especially weak, unfortunately. 

Since updating to OSX 10.9, I find that the Wallander WIVI player crashes my template whenever I quit the host software (Plogue Bidule). Anyone else experience this?


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## Bohrium (May 2, 2014)

brunodegazio @ Fri May 02 said:


> Since updating to OSX 10.9, I find that the Wallander WIVI player crashes my template whenever I quit the host software (Plogue Bidule). Anyone else experience this?



I only used them in Logic (even though I own a lot more DAWs) and haven't had a problem.


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## brunodegazio (May 2, 2014)

> That sounds amazing! Would love to see the midi for this performance, if you will share?



Sure, here's the MIDI file: 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9uj7z5mvykk4har/SyrinxFlute-t2.mid


Most of the performance happens with Breath Control (cc 02) which you can see in this image superimposed on the corresponding notes. For this piece I specifically turned 'off' the pitch bend which the EWI would normally add to its output. Doing vibrato purely from the breath sounded more natural.

Here's an image of the first couple of bars for those who don't want to deal with the MIDI: 







( Hmm, not sure why the image doesn't show up. The BBCode looks like this: 

img]https://www.dropbox.com/s/8gxgmwr9ccs6nbe/Syrinx-flute-notes-BreathControl.jpg[/img]

(any ideas?)


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## Heath (May 2, 2014)

There seems to be a gap between the j and the p in .jpg in your link. Might be the trouble.


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## PerryD (May 2, 2014)

There seems to be a common interest here. I owned a Yamaha VL-1m (the rack version of the VL-1). One of my few regrets of selling hardware. :( I also have the full set of WIVI. Wonderful playability but as you said, lack of detail. Too bad they abandoned further development. Thankfully, the SM instruments fill the gap beautifully.
:D -Perry-


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## brunodegazio (May 2, 2014)

Heath @ Fri May 02 said:


> There seems to be a gap between the j and the p in .jpg in your link. Might be the trouble.



That gap is not in my posting as I typed it into the editor. It appears only after the message has been posted. Also, the gap strangely changes position in the string every time I re-post the message. Weird. Maybe it means a bug in the BB software.


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## renegade (May 2, 2014)

brunodegazio @ Fri 02 May said:


> > That sounds amazing! Would love to see the midi for this performance, if you will share?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks!


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## lelepar (May 2, 2014)

brunodegazio @ Fri May 02 said:


> Sure, here's the MIDI file:
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/9uj7z5mvykk4har/SyrinxFlute-t2.mid



Could you also please share the .swam preset?

Thanks
Emanuele


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## ch4rles (May 2, 2014)

PerryD @ Fri May 02 said:


> There seems to be a common interest here. I owned a Yamaha VL-1m (the rack version of the VL-1). One of my few regrets of selling hardware.



Is this how you started with breath controllers?


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## brunodegazio (May 2, 2014)

lelepar @ Fri May 02 said:


> brunodegazio @ Fri May 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Sure, here's the MIDI file:
> ...




Sorry, didn't save it. It was just the default wind controller preset for C-flute. I think the only change to it was softening the note transitions using cc05. The MIDI file will take of that. 

(EDIT) - In order for cc05 to be effective you may need to manually set the note-transition parameter on the Main Page to "Controller" rather than "Velocity". 

FYI, on the recording there is also a Waves Linear-Phase EQ rolling off lows below about 300 Hz, and a Waves IR-1 Reverb, nothing special just the default settings.


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## brunodegazio (May 3, 2014)

lelepar @ Fri May 02 said:


> brunodegazio @ Fri May 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Could you also please share the .swam preset?
> ...




Emanuele, here's the SWAM preset I used in the Syrinx demo: 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3767884/vi-control/Syrinx%20Flute.swam

However, I'm not confidant that this contains everything needed to reproduce the sound. For example, on loading this file it doesn't seem to restore the "Transit.Time" parameter I mentioned in an earlier post. If this happens. manually set it to "CC" so that MIDI CC 05 will control (and soften) the transition times. 

(edit) - I just loaded the file again and it seems to work OK, i.e. it restored the "Transit.Time" parameter correctly. I must have been sloppy the first time around. Stefano, I would still appreciate some clarification on the questions below. thanks!)

Stefano, perhaps you can help here, How do the SWAM presets work? Do they contain and set every parameter? 

On a related question, is there a way to set a parameter directly from the Instrument front panel? I am referring to parameters on the Option page, such as portamento time. 

Last question for Stefano: is there a way to directly set the "Advanced Parameter Options" such as Vibrato Rate? The slider on the Option page seems to have no effect. 

thanks
Bruno


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## lelepar (May 3, 2014)

brunodegazio @ Sat May 03 said:


> Emanuele, here's the SWAM preset I used in the Syrinx demo:
> 
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3767884/vi-control/Syrinx%20Flute.swam
> 
> However, I'm not confidant that this contains everything needed to reproduce the sound. For example, on loading this file it doesn't seem to restore the "Transit.Time" parameter I mentioned in an earlier post. If this happens. manually set it to "CC" so that MIDI CC 05 will control (and soften) the transition times.



Bruno, it loaded perfectly; thank you!




brunodegazio @ Sat May 03 said:


> Stefano, perhaps you can help here, How do the SWAM presets work? Do they contain and set every parameter?
> 
> On a related question, is there a way to set a parameter directly from the Instrument front panel? I am referring to parameters on the Option page, such as portamento time.
> 
> Last question for Stefano: is there a way to directly set the "Advanced Parameter Options" such as Vibrato Rate? The slider on the Option page seems to have no effect.



The .swam preset file contains the value of all parameters, so it set the exact and complete status of the instrument.

The portamento time (better: transition time) value is set by the velocity or CC5; I cannot understand what are you meaning saying "set a parameter directly from the Instrument front panel".

The Vibrato is mapped to the MIDI CC19 by default (you can also set it to the CC you prefer) or you can change the slider value in the Options page (it works).

Emanuele & Stefano
Samplemodeling/SWAM team


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## apessino (May 3, 2014)

Hey, since you guys are here... :D 

Love the SWAM instruments to death, but I wish I could map the instrument volume slider to CC7 like I do for everything else. I cannot find a way to control overall volume other than setting it in the instrument itself, which is of course less than ideal.

Am I missing something obvious (it would not be the first time )?


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## lelepar (May 4, 2014)

apessino @ Sat May 03 said:


> Hey, since you guys are here... :D
> 
> Love the SWAM instruments to death, but I wish I could map the instrument volume slider to CC7 like I do for everything else. I cannot find a way to control overall volume other than setting it in the instrument itself, which is of course less than ideal.
> 
> Am I missing something obvious (it would not be the first time )?



Just right-click on the MainVolume slider and select CC7 (page 11 of the latest Woodwinds user manual http://www.samplemodeling.com/en/files/USER_MANUAL_SWAM_Woodwinds.pdf (http://www.samplemodeling.com/en/files/ ... dwinds.pdf) )

Emanuele 
Samplemodeling/SWAM team


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## nutotech (May 4, 2014)

Now THAT sounds like a flute!


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## apessino (May 4, 2014)

lelepar @ Sat May 03 said:


> apessino @ Sat May 03 said:
> 
> 
> > Hey, since you guys are here... :D
> ...



That was the first thing I tried - nothing happens when I right click on it. This is with any of the winds running in VE Pro on Win 7.

I am going to try again tonight and see if I can get it to work outside of VE Pro.

Thanks!


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## lelepar (May 5, 2014)

apessino @ Sun May 04 said:


> That was the first thing I tried - nothing happens when I right click on it. This is with any of the winds running in VE Pro on Win 7.
> 
> I am going to try again tonight and see if I can get it to work outside of VE Pro.
> 
> Thanks!



I'm attaching a screenshot, this is how it looks in VEP5 on Windows XP (in this moment I have no chance to try it on Windows 7).


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## Rob (May 5, 2014)

I can confirm that in Cubase 7.5, Windows7, right clicking on the slider gives the option to activate cc7 as main volume controller...
while I'm at it, if I suspend the judgement for a classical usage of the flute, I must say in a jazz/funk context it seems to work very well, unlike any other libraries I own... a snippet here:

www.robertosoggetti.com/SwamFunkFlute.mp3


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## brunodegazio (May 5, 2014)

Rob @ Mon May 05 said:


> I can confirm that in Cubase 7.5, Windows7, right clicking on the slider gives the option to activate cc7 as main volume controller...
> while I'm at it, if I suspend the judgement for a classical usage of the flute, I must say in a jazz/funk context it seems to work very well, unlike any other libraries I own... a snippet here:
> 
> www.robertosoggetti.com/SwamFunkFlute.mp3




Very nice Roberto, I love the airy attack on the jazz flute, as you say quite unlike any other sample or synth flute.


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## LHall (May 5, 2014)

Stefano Lucato @ Wed Apr 30 said:


> mozart999uk @ Wed Apr 30 said:
> 
> 
> > Stefano, would you feel up to commenting about the legatos in the version that was posted earlier?
> ...



Is that not you playing in the video demo on the SM website? LOL - I must not understand what "great musician" means! You sound like quite a great musician to me!


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## Stefano Lucato (May 5, 2014)

.
I must say that this forum (thanks to the criticisms and examples you post) is very useful to understand where we can improve the instruments. 
We are already at work... as usual. :wink: 
Thanks to all !!!



LHall @ Mon May 05 said:


> Is that not you playing in the video demo on the SM website? LOL - I must not understand what "great musician" means! You sound like quite a great musician to me!


Thank you, I wrote that because I think in this forum there are a lot of musicians of the highest level.  

Stefano
SWAM team
.


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## apessino (May 5, 2014)

Thanks for your replies!

Turns out it wasn't just the CC7 menu I was not getting... NONE of the right click menus to enable CCs were showing up, no idea why. It must have been something with updating the instruments, which I did at the same time I installed the new flutes.

Anyhow, I recreated my VEPro sessions after a restart and everything seems to be working now, getting the menus and all...  

Thanks again!


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## Stefano Lucato (May 31, 2014)

.
The Flutes v 1.2.0 are out !!
Several improvements : Timbre, Breath Modeling, Legato, Reverb, Dynamic Pan, GUI... 

Thanks for all your suggestions  

Stefano
SWAM team
Samplemodeling
.


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## Leandro Gardini (May 31, 2014)

Stefano Lucato @ Sat May 31 said:


> .
> The Flutes v 1.2.0 are out !!
> Several improvements : Timbre, Breath Modeling, Legato, Reverb, Dynamic Pan, GUI...
> 
> ...


It was already great. Thanks  !!


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## renegade (Jun 1, 2014)

Great! Thanks!


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## rayinstirling (Jun 1, 2014)

Stefano Lucato @ Sun Jun 01 said:


> .
> The Flutes v 1.2.0 are out !!
> Several improvements : Timbre, Breath Modeling, Legato, Reverb, Dynamic Pan, GUI...
> 
> ...



Great job Stefano,
It just sounds better straight off the bat.

Ray


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## Ben H (Jun 1, 2014)

Nice improvements, thanks.


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## LHall (Jun 3, 2014)

Oh yes!!! Really nice improvements. I'm getting no "maybe I'm playing a recorder" feeling now. All flute.

Great job and so quick to respond to everyone's comments!


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## Mahlon (Jun 3, 2014)

Does anyone have time to post an example of the new sound?

Mahlon


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## rayinstirling (Jun 3, 2014)

Mahlon @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> Does anyone have time to post an example of the new sound?
> 
> Mahlon



Mahlon,

I updated this file using the latest version
https://app.box.com/s/csfrgp9jl9xzs3nunxli (Pavane Extract)


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## Rob (Jun 3, 2014)

Mahlon @ 3rd June 2014 said:


> Does anyone have time to post an example of the new sound?
> 
> Mahlon



http://www.robertosoggetti.com/syrinx-swam_flute.mp3


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## germancomponist (Jun 3, 2014)

I got mine and am very very impressed!

Great Job, Stefano & team!


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## Markus Kohlprath (Jun 3, 2014)

I'm curios how you create an ensemble sound with those instruments. Are the woodwinds similar structured as the brass which i really love? E.g. Flute1 flute2 which can be played together? Can't find any info On this at their web site.
Thanks for info


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## lelepar (Jun 3, 2014)

Yes, of course, you can obtain different timbres acting on few parameters; the most important is the "Instr" parameter. Also you can slightly change the pitch, the formant, the harmonic structure and the Style.

Best
Emanuele


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## Mahlon (Jun 4, 2014)

Okay, Ray and Rob :o , both of those sound like a different flute than before. Big improvement in subjugating that nasalness, and it now seems that one can have a very good Sample Modeling quartet or quintet. 

Thanks for the examples o-[][]-o

Mahlon


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## aldonbaker (Jun 7, 2014)

Here's a track i wrote for a film with the flutes and oboes from samplemodeling. BC3A breath controller also. 

https://soundcloud.com/aldonbaker/baker-1m1v1-montage-1035323

Enjoy!!


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## Casiquire (Jun 7, 2014)

Oh yeah this sounds much improved! Thanks for all the demos everyone!


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