# Sable users thus far.



## George Caplan (Feb 16, 2013)

i am very interested to hear early thoughts on sable thus far.


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## Ed (Feb 16, 2013)

Really great, lovely sound. Legato works really quite well, if anything its too tailored for fast passages which is usually lacking. There's a couple of funky sounds in a couple of notes, but they can be RX corrected I expect or just delete it completely as they have 2 round robins for sustains. 

For me the most annoying thing to use it right now is the releases that are too short. If you do manage to find out how to extend them, the release sample still plays so it still doesnt sound right. Ideally I'd want to lower the release note volume or turn it off, and control attack and release on the sustains with sliders/knobs on the UI. I notice this in the demos too, would be a huge improvement to get this sorted. I'll never understand the appeal of these short releases on just about all string libraries. Its potentially easily fixable

But other than that its a great library and I really look forward to Vol 2 and *especially *3 and the programming updates.


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## rpmusic (Feb 16, 2013)

I really love this library on its own - it's great to finally has a smaller more "intimate" sound. What I've really excited about is that when I add this to my LASS setup, it brings an entire new layer of realism to an already realistic library (meaning LASS).

IMO, this is a "must have" in anyone's arsenal. Looking forward to completing the library with Vol 2 & 3.


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## windshore (Feb 16, 2013)

Loving it so far. The variety of articulations is awesome and the basic sound is so "real" and lively. Vibrato control is very nice. 

Like Ed said, I've come across a couple of odd notes, but they've always been good about addressing that kind of thing quickly. I'm most interested in seeing how these first 2 instruments play with their mates coming along soon.


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## George Caplan (Feb 16, 2013)

ed what does it do for cinematic strings? any additive value?


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## Graham Keitch (Feb 16, 2013)

George Caplan @ Sat Feb 16 said:


> ed what does it do for cinematic strings? any additive value?



George, I'm predicting CS and Sable will be an excellent match because they share a similar warm tone that I find lacking in other string libraries. I haven't experimented yet but was listening to some of my string work with CS2 earlier and they do share a similar tonality with Sable in my view. Further, CS doesn't have real divisi and I think Sable will come to the rescue here as well as providing a useful resource for the quieter and more intimate moments within a given composition. 

As a non ensemble user (ie I compose and render with proper scores), CS and Sable should be a perfect combination.

Regards,

Graham


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## Synesthesia (Feb 16, 2013)

Thanks for the nice comments guys!

Ed - I'm confused about this whole ADSR thing.

Theres a reason 99% of string libraries work this way - which is that for me, I always want the strings to stop playing when I release the key. So if I want a soft fade out, I play it like that, and if I want a hard out, I can play it like that too.

I guess we could make a 'synth strings' type pad as an extra but I don't want the rest of the library to work like this, and I'm wondering what kind of context you are using it in where you can't get the note endings you want?

All the lines would blur together if you had a long release on the tails, and then you couldn't use the RTs, which would remove a massive amount of spacialisation..

Cheers,

Paul


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## Sid Francis (Feb 16, 2013)

Hey Paul...

Probably Ed is not talking about a long ringing tail. I also noticed that the endings of the spitfire strings ( Loegria and Sable) are a tad , really only a tad for me, too short. I could imagine that another 2-300 ms could give a more fluent feeling to the playing. It is no big point for me but I also considered to ask for some alternate patches in the past but I decided to leave you alone with the work you already got.  But I would welcome the opportunity to choose the release time (in a certain range) and the loudness of the tails very much. Again, as I said, no big deal for me but an improvement to an already good library which could suit more different playing styles then. Yes, I also do come from normal synthesizers and not from an orchestral background... :lol: 
Perhaps you noticed that Alex Walbank also added attack and release controls to CSII in the latest patch. Probably there was some demand for it too...


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## Simon Ravn (Feb 17, 2013)

I don't think they are necessarily too short - I think the releases are in most cases too loud - and in some cases too low in volume. I would be happy to file a full report on which I think are too loud and too low, but if Paul & Co. believe they are as they should be there is no point 8) 

I hear what you say about x-fading it out for gentle/smooth playing, however I believe for the lower velocities (pp/p) it makes sense to have a pretty long release since you will never want those to just abruptly cut off - and why not eliminate the need for constant CC11/expression programming on those by having longer releases - IMHO making them more playable. That's what I have done to other string libraries that have very short releases even on lowest dynamic layers and I think it works much better.


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## George Caplan (Feb 17, 2013)

i think this is one of the reasons although not sure what im talking about as to asking about dynamics pf fp pfp and so on. but if you can use the mod wheel or slider of your choice to virtually do the same thing does it matter?


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## Simon Ravn (Feb 17, 2013)

George Caplan @ Sun Feb 17 said:


> i think this is one of the reasons although not sure what im talking about as to asking about dynamics pf fp pfp and so on. but if you can use the mod wheel or slider of your choice to virtually do the same thing does it matter?



Yes it does - as I just pointed out - why rely on a ton of programming work with a fader if you can bake it into the patch, thus making it much more easily playable?


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## radec (Feb 17, 2013)

"Sid Francis said:


> endings of the spitfire strings ( Loegria and Sable) are a tad , really only a tad for me, too short. I could imagine that another 2-300 ms could give a more fluent feeling to the playing


pls someone correct me if im misunderstanding but when ive used spitfire strings they sound the most realistic to me (having worked with live strings a lot.. and yea you get this 'sucking' ppl talk about with live strings...) because of this very rls. as i understand these are the exact recording of the rls in a hall. there is no way to make them 'longer' because this is how the rls sounds when ya record it in the room. if you want a rls that decays longer just key in the amb mic.



Simon Ravn said:


> ...if you can bake it into the patch, thus making it much more easily playable?


as long as this was completely separate i agree but i would *hate* for the main patches to have this. also i tend to have the dynamics edited alot and it takes literally less than a second or two to draw this line down and ya get total control over length/curve/etc..

maybe playin devils advocate here as i like the lib the way it works now, but what if ya guys at spitfire added a way to config whether the release is 'realistic' or if its synth xfade via cc or KS?


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## FriFlo (Feb 17, 2013)

what about a release control by CC? This way, everyone can have it his own way ....


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## Simon Ravn (Feb 17, 2013)

radec @ Sun Feb 17 said:


> "Sid Francis said:
> 
> 
> > endings of the spitfire strings ( Loegria and Sable) are a tad , really only a tad for me, too short. I could imagine that another 2-300 ms could give a more fluent feeling to the playing
> ...



Fair enough, I wouldn't have anything against that choice obviously 8) However I can't think of a single instance where you would want a very soft playing string section to just cut out a note abruptly, instead of gently releasing the bow off the string. As long as it doesn't interfere with the next note in a legato phrase of course - this is a balance to consider.


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## Ed (Feb 17, 2013)

Synesthesia @ Sat Feb 16 said:


> Thanks for the nice comments guys!
> 
> Ed - I'm confused about this whole ADSR thing.
> 
> ...



Hi Paul, I'll have to make a few audio examples to show you what I mean. Im mixing today so will try and get to it tomorrow.

Im not looking for really long releases, if you go too far it does indeed sound like a pad. Thats not what I'd want either. You have to get it just right, and really I think the only way to do that is going to be adding attack and release knobs to the front panel so people can tweak it themselves as per the project/line, sometimes releases this short are needed afterall. That, and either a way to turn off the release tails or reduce their volume. (I also dont know if it would help to actually have a slower attack on the release tails themselves as well to account for the longer ASDR releases.. that may not work at all)

Take the velocity triggered Symphobia strings patch for instance (using the old UI patch layout). I like to have the release to about 800 to 1.1ms depending on what Im doing. Sometimes a little less, but usually not. To make it sound more like how the longs do in Sable I must first deactivate the release tail (because it bugs out with releases this short) and then set the release to about 190ms give or take. If you do that the only difference between that effect and Sable is you dont get the hall release sound, the "sucking" abrupt end to the notes will now roughly be the same and now be evident in the Symphobia patch. Also with some of the Sable longs having faster more strident attacks than the Symphobia patch does, this actually ends up amplifying this.

Its not just me that has mentioned this "sucking" sound, but in my experience with every library I've had 90% of the time this effect is caused by this and is either reduced considerably or practically vanishes entirely with a few very minor tweaks. Normally I would just change it myself but you cant do that easily here and if I do manage to increase the release the release tail jumps out when I release the key anyway so it more or less negates the effect of the longer release. Just to reiterate this "sucking" issue with attack/releases is an issue with just about every single string library, nothing unique to Sable.


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## Synesthesia (Feb 17, 2013)

Hi Ed. 

I actually spend a long time getting the releases correct. Obviously it's an iterative process involving zone and group volumes, Adsr and sometimes flex envelopes for note and rt groups.. Etc..

You can't just pop those controls on the panel..

Do you hear problems in our demos? 

Thanks,

Paul


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## Stephen Baysted (Feb 17, 2013)

Synesthesia @ Sun Feb 17 said:


> Hi Ed.
> 
> I actually spend a long time getting the releases correct. Obviously it's an iterative process involving zone and group volumes, Adsr and sometimes flex envelopes for note and rt groups.. Etc..
> 
> ...



I do Paul, all over each and every one of them. They're just a bit ... well ... how shall I put it? A bit too ... realistic and lifelike. Can't you guys just make them more synthy and pad-like? :lol:


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## mark812 (Feb 17, 2013)

Stephen Baysted @ Sun Feb 17 said:


> Synesthesia @ Sun Feb 17 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Ed.
> ...



:lol:


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## Ed (Feb 17, 2013)

Synesthesia @ Sun Feb 17 said:


> Do you hear problems in our demos?



Yes I definitely do, and in the few others have posted as well. I will show you an example like I said... but my description of the Symphobia patch and how to make it sound like that is accurate. I know Stephen has posted that sarcastic response but its not just me that has noticed the releases in this and other products like Albion.

Is it really so difficult to add an attack/release knob/slider to the UI? And a way to lower the volume of the releases? Other UI's seem to have them


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## radec (Feb 17, 2013)

Ed @ Sun Feb 17 said:


> but my description of the Symphobia patch and how to make it sound like that is accurate


imho symphobia patches are not realistic at all when ya talk about envelopes. last thing i would want is the patches sounding like this!


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## Ed (Feb 17, 2013)

radec @ Sun Feb 17 said:


> Ed @ Sun Feb 17 said:
> 
> 
> > but my description of the Symphobia patch and how to make it sound like that is accurate
> ...



The fact that its ensemble is irrelevant. The sucking effect can be caused in the same way, which is why I gave the example. The "sucking" effect is almost entirely caused by short releases *that is what people are hearing *when they mention that, and many have. The effect can be caused on any instrument or sound, its just some sounds react worse than others. By tweaking releases so the sounds don't end so abruptly it can be helped greatly or the problem can be practically eliminated


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## radec (Feb 17, 2013)

Ed @ Sun Feb 17 said:


> The fact that its ensemble is irrelevant. The sucking effect can be caused in the same way, which is why I gave the example. The "sucking" effect is almost entirely caused by short releases *that is what people are hearing *when they mention that, and many have. The effect can be caused on any instrument or sound, its just some sounds react worse than others. By tweaking releases so the sounds don't end so abruptly it can be helped greatly or the problem can be practically eliminated


i dont think ya understood me. im talking about the rls env. not the sound. when i rls a key i expect it to sound like my vln players just stopped bowing. not like theyve been signalled to xfade out.. if i want that i program in the dynamics.


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## Rob Elliott (Feb 17, 2013)

rpmusic @ Sat Feb 16 said:


> I really love this library on its own - it's great to finally has a smaller more "intimate" sound. What I've really excited about is that when I add this to my LASS setup, it brings an entire new layer of realism to an already realistic library (meaning LASS).
> 
> IMO, this is a "must have" in anyone's arsenal. Looking forward to completing the library with Vol 2 & 3.




Hey Rob - could you elaborate on how Sable would augment/benefit LASS. Many thanks when you get the chance. I can totally see Sable helping the lush /bigness of CS - just curious how Sable would benefit LASS.


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## Ed (Feb 17, 2013)

radec @ Sun Feb 17 said:


> when i rls a key i expect it to sound like my vln players just stopped bowing. not like theyve been signalled to xfade out.. if i want that i program in the dynamics.



Again, in theory this seems correct. But we are in the world of make believe here, sampled violins are not real violins and do not behave like real violins. When you release a key and change to another (when there is no legato at all) what you hear is not the same as you would hear if it was live violins playing the same thing. You already do have the effect of a fadeout unless you literally have a dead stop. Everything about sample programming is already unrealistic, you cannot say that what Im suggesting is wrong because of realism. It only matters what sounds good. As I said the effect that people perceive to be "sucking" (which seems to be universally described this way) 90% of the time will be caused by this release issue. While you will describe this as unrealistic to have the release increased it will end up being perceived to be more realistic than not having it because strings don't just stop dead in this way and stands out more. Some passages and uses require a little more release some require a little less, but the idea that the concept here itself is wrong just doesn't hold up.


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## jamwerks (Feb 17, 2013)

I haven't picked mine up yet but, about this release question, if you want longer releases for a passage, maybe in your head you imagine the player ending a phrase in a graceful fashion, and the release doesn't "work" for you in that situation. Maybe a total fade-out with the mod-wheel would do that better?


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## radec (Feb 17, 2013)

Ed @ Sun Feb 17 said:


> Again, in theory this seems correct. But we are in the world of make believe here, sampled violins are not real violins and do not behave like real violins. When you release a key and change to another (when there is no legato at all) what you hear is not the same as you would hear if it was live violins playing the same thing.


well no we are not in the world of make believe.... these are *real* recordings, not a synth ya can dial up an ADSR knob on. also what i hear in sable when i rls a key and change note is *exactly* what i hear in a hall when i have a section stop a note abruptly and change note.. thats *what i like* none of this silly linear env fade out.. if i want a smooth non-legato change note i ride my wheel down between the change.. but *unlike* those _10%_ libs ya talk about with synthy rls env. ya can also stop a note abruptly realistically which is important control for me.


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## Ed (Feb 17, 2013)

radec @ Sun Feb 17 said:


> well no we are not in the world of make believe.... these are *real* recordings, not a synth ya can dial up an ADSR knob on. also what i hear in sable when i rls a key and change note is *exactly* what i hear in a hall when i have a section stop a note abruptly and change note.. thats *what i like* none of this silly linear env fade out.. if i want a smooth non-legato change note i ride my wheel down between the change.. but *unlike* those _10%_ libs ya talk about with synthy rls env. ya can also stop a note abruptly realistically which is important control for me.



They are real recordings but that doesnt mean playing it on a keyboard is realistically what it would sound like if it were live, thats the reason for all these different articulations/legato intervals etc in the first place. But your premise is that its more realistic to have these abrupt note endings, feel free to play us a slow adagio type thing with the Sable sustains and show us (no legato). I guarantee that it will show how unrealistic short releases are and why it matters. Every time you change notes you will get a "sucking sound". Either way I'll do my own audio examples tomorrow. Can be simple, not asking for something amazing. Don't use Flaut as the releases don't seem as dramatic as the sordinos and the normal sustains. Edit: Also Im not asking for them to change it since I dont think they'd do it the way I'd want, Im asking for an attack and/or at least a release knob and the ability to lower the release tail volume on the UI panel so everyone can change it to their own liking and everyone's happy.

And Jam, that will only work in a select few circumstances.


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## Synesthesia (Feb 17, 2013)

But Ed - you aren't listening to what I'm saying: technically the R portion of the note on zone is *solely* controlling the crossfade from the note itself, to the A portion of the note off zone (RT) which is simply the ending of that exact same note. 

ie: you hear the players end the note, plus the decay of the hall reverberation.

If you start messing with the ADSR of the note on, that collapses the nice crossfade and the whole thing falls to bits.

The example you give of turning off the RTs of Symphobia's pads and then setting the Release to 190ms is so far away from this situation that I can't see how it is remotely applicable..

You have to invest a little time in learning how to play these instruments. If you are not using the modwheel, you are losing at least 50% of the control and expressiveness of the instrument.

If you want it to sound legato, use the legato patches. If you want it to sound detache, then I can assure you that sitting in front of a group of players in real life, you'll hear the separation, which you refer to as a 'sucking' noise. Obviously if you play these Longs as pads, with 4-5 parts, and change them all at the same time, you'll hear that exaggerated. The same way it would be in real life.

If I'm misunderstanding something here I apologise, but this all seems fairly self evident to me?


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## Drew Buchan (Feb 17, 2013)

I posted in the other thread about this issue (Advice on Sable Purchase) before this particular thread started, so I'm not jumping on the bandwagon here.

I like Sable very much; a very delicate brush set .. but my feelings about Sable are that some of the releases are too abrubt in the long and sordino articulations. Not all samples but quite a few (there are also some bum notes that need fixing - noise, tuning). The playability of the long articulations (both normal and sordino) suffers because of this, especially trying to play slow, gentle flowing lines (non legato). And playability, with all the articulations in a single patch was what persuaded me to buy this library.

I went back to your solo strings library also. The legato patches are fine (wonderful, wonderful innfact) but the Multi long patches have even more abrubt releases and harder attacks than Sable.

I love Albion I and II. (Also have III). I am a great fan of Spitfire, so not entirely comfortable posting a few critiques. But I think the comments about the release being abrubt are fair ... and as Ed has pointed out a number of posters have independently made this observation.

Please take this as friendly feedback.

PS I love the overall branding of Spitfire and Albion. The images, names, fonts, colours. I am not aware of any other other business or industry that has taken the faded British Empire theme. Its truly original and fantastic. Congratulations to whoever came up with that.


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## Daniel James (Feb 17, 2013)

I think what Ed is getting at is when you have lines that go one after the other, non legato. Particularly in chords.

I will say now I don't yet have Sable however I have noticed the exact thing people are talking about with regards to abrupt releases in other spitfire string libraries. When spitfire strings end, they stop. end of. When you have libraries like Symphobia they have an extended tail, it may perhaps be less real however it does serve to create a blur between parts which is much more pleasing to the ear. It would be awesome to have an option to increase the release a bit as others have suggested.

I made a quick video comparison to show exactly what I mean about the sucking effect and releases giving a 'blur' to parts. I am using Albion 2 in the video because, like I mentioned, I do not yet have Sable however I think its the same issue people are talking about. (If I am wrong feel free to tell me)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0bvA3bzR4w

-DJ


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## kb123 (Feb 17, 2013)

But the strings stop in a manner reflecting the natural stop of the strings in that room. If you play a string loudly, and just stop playing, that is what you will hear. Adding reverb will also provide a smear effect, but is that any more natural? I think if you want to get the most out of libraries like these, you have to play them as a string player would, simple as that.


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## snattack (Feb 17, 2013)

The problem is, and the reason for a real ensemble not to sound "synthy" when doing bow changes, is that there are several musicians which means that noone changes note at the exactly same time, which actually gives the impression of extending the release trail (which was one of the main reasons people started sampling legato transisions in the first place?). On the keyboard there's ONE musician changing note.

Based on that, I guess the "sucking effect" would be more obvious with a real ensemble that is small, than a larger ensemble (= more musicans not changing notes at the same time).

Haven't downloaded Sable yet, looking forward to it though! Love the sound of the demos 

Best,
Andreas


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## G.R. Baumann (Feb 18, 2013)

Think you nailed it Daniel!


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## zacnelson (Feb 18, 2013)

Thanks for the video Daniel


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## hector (Feb 18, 2013)

if you take some time to learn and use your tools in the right way you'll find it's pretty easy to not get this effect


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## Daniel James (Feb 18, 2013)

hector @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> Daniel James @ Mon Feb 18 said:
> 
> 
> > I think what Ed is getting at is when you have lines that go one after the other, non legato. Particularly in chords.
> ...



Lol are you implying I don't know how to use my tools? When I compose I always use the patches to their strengths and will always pick something that sounds 'good' over something that sounds 'real.' At the end of the day we are writing for samples so our compositions need to sound their best, even if that means having sounds do things they wouldn't necessarily do in real life (like over emphasized release tails)...oh and to answer your question, I write block chords like this all the time, I love the way they sound on strings!

Also, What were you trying to show in your mp3? that you can get rid of the sucking effect? Because that's not the point, A monkey could get rid of the sucking effect, the point is with longer release tails there is normally less effort to get rid of it, less tweaking. With shorter release times you normally have to massage it a little bit to get rid of the suck, time which could be spent doing other things.

For the record, I love Spitfires strings, they sound great. I made the point to shine light on what Ed was getting at. I used the exact same midi file on both tracks to show what he was trying to say (always easier to show something than explain it)

-DJ


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## hector (Feb 18, 2013)

Daniel James @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> Lol are you implying I don't know how to use my tools?


From watching your video - yes I imply you do not know how to use Albion 2 in the context you are trying to write with it. I think a few people have explained why the sustains sound how they do and how to achieve the connected sound and I don't understand your videos point other to reinforce an non issue that has been explained two/three times. 

Yes we are writing for samples, but samples very point is to emulate that which we cannot have access to (else why not just use a synth?). Personally I like to emulate as closely as possible (for personal pleasure and to know it will sound very similar when I take it to the hall) and Symphobia to me is jarring and not pleasing to the ear because of its non realism.



Daniel James @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> Also, What were you trying to show in your mp3? that you can get rid of the sucking effect? Because that's not the point, A monkey could get rid of the sucking effect


What I show with my mp3 (and my very point is) _I did nothing to get rid of the sucking effect_. No effort and no monkey needed, it does not occur if you use the tool correctly... You shine a light on a non issue. If someone posted a comment saying 'When I play a melody the notes do not sound connected' and then someone posted a video to show this but they are using sustains and not legato, you would assume both persons did not know how to use their tools correctly or else they would be using a legato patch. This is no different just a different scenario and I mean it as no insult - just that in your video you do not use the tool right to achieve the sound you are trying. If you use the tool right it will sound right.


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## Ed (Feb 18, 2013)

hector @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> The notes do not sound connected' and then someone posted a video to show this but they are using sustains and not legato, you would assume both persons did not know how to use their tools correctly or else they would be using a legato patch.



Wait.... are you kidding me....? Are you new to samples? Serious question. How long have you been using sampled instruments like this one and how many such libraries have you owned?


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## jamwerks (Feb 18, 2013)

Daniel James @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> Lol are you implying I don't know how to use my tools?



I watched the YOUTUbe thing. The Symphobia string patch that you use there is programmed like a synth with long releases. Seems to me you're using the wrong patch in SF. You really need to have 3 legato lines going there.

Or to replicate what real string players would sound like, you could do the 3 legato lines, doubled by 3 other lines that change note a bit before or after the other group. And to do what real plays do, lots of mod wheel could be used.


In any case SF does sounds to me like what real strings sound like, and that's why I find them so invaluable, and why I personally would never buy Symphobia.

But for the kind of writing like that example, and for going fast, Symphobia might be best.


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## Daniel James (Feb 18, 2013)

hector @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> Daniel James @ Mon Feb 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Lol are you implying I don't know how to use my tools?
> ...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HT9nG3sxPw

I said I posted that video earlier to shine light on the point Ed was making.

-DJ


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## Ed (Feb 18, 2013)

jamwerks @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> I watched the YOUTUbe thing. The Symphobia string patch that you use there is programmed like a synth with long releases. Seems to me you're using the wrong patch in SF. You really need to have 3 legato lines going there..



1. No you dont need to, that is the very long way of doing it and you shouldnt *have *to. What you describe can be done with all libraries that come with a legato patch. Do you remember a time before we had legato intervals? Because I do. Its very common to have legato playing top lines and sustains playing others such as 2 or more note chords, because 1. its easier and faster and 2, you dont hear the detail as much anyway.

2. Exactly how DO you expect someone to use these sustains? Especially as there are some sustains in both Albion and Sable that do not have legato or where the legato is limited. This effect will happen even on a 2 note chord, or even 1 note. I can't imagine very many scenarios where this effect is preferable or even more desirable. Are we just not meant to use the sordinos, if using them like this is incorrect?

3. A few have claimed this is "realistic". It is *completely *unrealistic, but I find it quite a bizarre suggestion since it would then logically follow that legato transition samples are somehow more realistic than reality.


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## Daniel James (Feb 18, 2013)

jamwerks @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> Daniel James @ Mon Feb 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Lol are you implying I don't know how to use my tools?
> ...



No I used the right patch, The point that was being made is that the longs ended suddenly. So I used an equivalent patch from Symphobia (non legato) to show how you can get a nice string sound with no tweaking because the long release tail covers up the point where the notes (or chords in my example) change. With a sudden stop when you release a key, no matter how fast your hands are you will hear that jump from one chord to the next and will have to go in and finetune where the patch ends to remove the sucking effect.

-DJ


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## George Caplan (Feb 18, 2013)

ok gents. i have symphobia and i dont use it like a synth. i dont play chords in that way. the way i would play chords like that would be on a prophet 08 pad if i was doing that kind of thing.
i can understand why you would want to do that because you are talking about speed. but the way it looks is this is synth style playing as opposed to getting a realistic string sound using a keyboard. 

hectors example is a good example of how to do it. maybe its a keyboard technique that hector has that allows for more realistic string passages.

but this is not about symphobia and any comparisons to an ensemble library are not relevant to sable.

edit. on catchin g up with threads maybe paul & co can clarify any thoughts they may have on release times.


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## Ed (Feb 18, 2013)

George Caplan @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> hectors example is a good example of how to do it. maybe its a keyboard technique that hector has that allows for more realistic string passages.



Hector has simply used the legato patches, as he said. As Jam said, you dont use the sustains at all, you just use the legato patch for every single line. He also cherry picked an example like a boss.


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## George Caplan (Feb 18, 2013)

Ed @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> George Caplan @ Mon Feb 18 said:
> 
> 
> > hectors example is a good example of how to do it. maybe its a keyboard technique that hector has that allows for more realistic string passages.
> ...



now im getting lost. why would anyone use a sustain patch to play legato? does that make sense? can someone just play one chord of sustain without transitioning into another chord so we can hear it?


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## Ed (Feb 18, 2013)

George Caplan @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> now im getting lost. why would anyone use a sustain patch to play legato? does that make sense? can someone just play one chord of sustain without transitioning into another chord so we can hear it?



George I know you've been at this for longer than me, what did you do before you had legato samples? Also since the claim is we're using it wrong, in a library like this one in what context would you use a non-legato sustain patch like what we've been discussing?


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## Daniel James (Feb 18, 2013)

George Caplan @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> ok gents. i have symphobia and i dont use it like a synth. i dont play chords in that way. the way i would play chords like that would be on a prophet 08 pad if i was doing that kind of thing.
> i can understand why you would want to do that because you are talking about speed. but the way it looks is this is synth style playing as opposed to getting a realistic string sound using a keyboard.



George padding out chords on string pads like that shouldn't be cast aside as an afterthought or _just_ a synth like thing. It can add that extra feeling of harmony and the _feeling_ of strings in a hall. When writing with samples its not about writing realistically, unless you are writing with the intent of having it recorded by live strings you should instead focus on making the samples sing...which isn't always about making it work like live strings or be as realistic as possible because at the end of the day its not live strings, its sampled strings, two completely different things. 

Luckily Spitfire make awesome sounding libs so they have a great out of the box tone and plenty of flexibility, thats not a problem. A few 'unrealistic' but functional options (like emphasized release times) would be of great use to some composers I can imagine though.

All my opinion of course. And hey you guys know where to listen to my music so if you listen and think my music is shit then you can assume I am talking out my ass.

-DJ


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## hector (Feb 18, 2013)

> No I used the right patch, The point that was being made is that the longs ended suddenly.


For what you demonstrated you used the _wrong_ patch. It is (extreme example) like me using Sustains very short and saying 'it does not sound like Spiccato'. Yes they don't... and they're not meant to, that is what Spiccato is included for. Connected lines is what legato is for.



Ed @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> Hector has simply used the legato patches, as he said. As Jam said, you dont use the sustains at all, you just use the legato patch. He also cherry picked an example like a boss.


Actually I did not cherry pick at all - My post was addressed mostly at Daniel James and so I played the passage that he supplied in two different libraries.

Why would you not use the legato patches? The piece DJ plays in his video is a connected chord progression and in real life they would be smooth transition. If you want to replicate this sound you would use legato. Synethesia points out already that sustains have an intended, abrupt release and so why would you use these for smooth chord progression?



Ed @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> George I know you've been at this for longer than me, what did you do before you had legato samples?


I don't understand your point on this - now we _do_ have legato samples... We dont need to rely on synthetic sounding ADSR tricks anymore


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## zacnelson (Feb 18, 2013)

[/quote]


> When writing with samples its not about writing realistically, unless you are writing with the intent of having it recorded by live strings you should instead focus on making the samples sing...which isn't always about making it work like live strings or be as realistic as possible because at the end of the day its not live strings, its sampled strings, two completely different things.



Very well said Daniel


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## George Caplan (Feb 18, 2013)

Ed @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> George Caplan @ Mon Feb 18 said:
> 
> 
> > now im getting lost. why would anyone use a sustain patch to play legato? does that make sense? can someone just play one chord of sustain without transitioning into another chord so we can hear it?
> ...



no no no. ed i have been trying to learn about this side of recording only since i came to this forum. so what ive learned is here. im not saying youre using it wrong. i am simply trying to get to why a sustain patch needs to have long release times. yes when you look at a score its very true to say that sustain after sustain occurs that is non legato so i take your point.


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## George Caplan (Feb 18, 2013)

Daniel James @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> All my opinion of course. And hey you guys know where to listen to my music so if you listen and think my music is shit then you can assume I am talking out my ass.
> 
> -DJ



of course not daniel! what i think youre saying is you want release times added so you can use chords for speed. with legato im not sure if you can play chords right?


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## Ed (Feb 18, 2013)

hector @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> I don't understand your point on this - now we _do_ have legato samples... We dont need to rely on synthetic sounding ADSR tricks anymore



Despite the fact that Sable Vol1 has one legato patch per section, yet provides a few different sustain types such as sordinos, harmonics and flautando where legato patches either arent planned for or where you have to wait till Vol 3, or the fact that Albion 2 has no sordino legato at all and isnt as far as I know planned, you still havent (neither has anyone else) explained how we are meant to use the sustain patches if not in the ways that have been described. _If its for single notes, then use legato! If its more than 2 notes, also use legato!_ right? Can you suggest *any *use for these sustains* that function like this*, *that are preferable* to sustains with longer releases? Especially as you appear to accept the point that the ADSR "trick" does indeed increase the perceived realism when you aren't using interval samples. And do you therefore support the longer release controller and release tail volume slider due to the sustained arts that don't have a legato patch or arent going to get any legato in future volumes?


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## Daniel James (Feb 18, 2013)

George Caplan @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> Daniel James @ Mon Feb 18 said:
> 
> 
> > All my opinion of course. And hey you guys know where to listen to my music so if you listen and think my music is [email protected]#t then you can assume I am talking out my ass.
> ...



Its not always a just a speed thing. I use chord pads and long (non legato) patches all the time for layering too. Sure I could layer in 4 separate legato patches to achieve a connected sound but why bother when an extended release time sounds just as connected? 

When I compose I have a very spesific mindset which determines what patches I use. I always imagine a foreground a midground and a background. Forgroun elements are the things people are actually listening to, the main element like a melody for these I will use a legato patch and add all the flourishes like portamento etc...then the midground is things like counterpoint lines or bass lines, there will normally get a long/sustain patch...or a legato one if its a complex line. And the background, which is where most of the layering parts are will all be these big, long release, non legato string pads....their point isnt to be realistic, they are to give a really full sounding, sonically pleasing string tone to the music and THAT is the aim, I couldn't give two shits if its realistic or not just as long as it sounds 'good'

-DJ


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## jamwerks (Feb 18, 2013)

Daniel James @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> Its not always a just a speed thing. I use chord pads and long (non legato) patches all the time for layering too.J



For the way you work, Symphobia is undoubtedly the right tool. We're lucky that all the different sample libraries are programmed differently, so we can each find our own weapons.

I suppose SF could program another articulation to do the pad thing if a lot of people wanted it though...


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## Drew Buchan (Feb 18, 2013)

[/quote]

For the way you work, Symphobia is undoubtedly the right tool. We're lucky that all the different sample libraries are programmed differently, so we can each find our own weapons.

.[/quote]

Its not just Symphobia; I can easily write flowing non-legato lines in Symphobia, Cinematic Strings, VSL Appasionata, VSL Orhcestral, VSL Chamber, VSL Solo, EWQL without a sucking sound.

Maybe I could fix it after the performance, or by editing some of the samples .... but rightly or wrongly, the title of this thread is "Sable Users thus far" .... and t least four other members who have approaching some 40+ years of accumulated sample string library writing use between them (judging by their joining date on this particular forum alone, and knowing some of them from Northern Sounds) ... are are pointing what appears to a common issue (even if its not universal).

You don't ignore that sort of feedback from those sort of users and fob it off with statements such as "you don't know how to use your tools".

(I'm not including my own 13 years, as I'm not exactly a prolific poster here


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## jamwerks (Feb 18, 2013)

Drew Buchan @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> Its not just Symphobia; I can easily write flowing non-legato lines in Symphobia, Cinematic Strings, VSL Appasionata, VSL Orhcestral, VSL Chamber, VSL Solo, EWQL without a sucking sound.



I don't agree. I have all the VSL strings, and the sus patches all have very quick releases.


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## tommalm (Feb 18, 2013)

> I don't agree. I has all the VSL strings, and the sus patches all have very quick releases.


But then again; You can easily adjust the attack and release of any VSL sustain samples


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## Ed (Feb 18, 2013)

jamwerks @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> Drew Buchan @ Mon Feb 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Its not just Symphobia; I can easily write flowing non-legato lines in Symphobia, Cinematic Strings, VSL Appasionata, VSL Orhcestral, VSL Chamber, VSL Solo, EWQL without a sucking sound.
> ...



Probably true from my albeit very small experience with VSL, but if you notice releases are all controllable and you've always been able to whether that was in Gigastudio or in their own UI. Yes I know VSL doesnt really have a hall, but a lot of other libraries that do have a hall and sometimes very ambient halls give you that control Im asking about such as Cinesamples, Project Sam, 8dio, CS2 and the EW Hollywood series etc. Its not some crazy notion like its been made out to be by a few people here, its evidently one of the most common controls that devs intentionally add to their own custom UI's.

Maybe you could reply to my last post directed to hector.


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## Drew Buchan (Feb 18, 2013)

Tommalm, beat me to it.
I do have the release on "some" VSL strings adjusted up a tad ... sorry, I should have acknowledged that.


Anyway the original poster asked for experiences so far ... and its fair to say that opinion is mixed about the issue about the length of the releases ... there no getting away from that, which ever side of the argument of you take ... feedback was requested. Feedback was given.


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## mk282 (Feb 18, 2013)

hector @ 18.2.2013 said:


> Yes we are writing for samples, but samples very point is to emulate that which we cannot have access to (else why not just use a synth?). Personally I like to emulate as closely as possible (for personal pleasure and to know it will sound very similar when I take it to the hall) and Symphobia to me is jarring and not pleasing to the ear because of its non realism.



Very much agreed on this.


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## George Caplan (Feb 18, 2013)

Drew Buchan @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> Anyway the original poster asked for experiences so far ... and its fair to say that opinion is mixed about the issue about the length of the releases ... there no getting away from that, which ever side of the argument of you take ... feedback was requested. Feedback was given.



ok im prepared to go with that.

will spitfire do the requested area of release times for non legato sustain patches in their forthcoming updates?


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## Daniel James (Feb 18, 2013)

hector @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> Daniel James @ Mon Feb 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Lol are you implying I don't know how to use my tools?
> ...



Samples can, like you say, only _emulate_ real strings. They are not yet a replacement for live strings. So as of right now they are still samples, and writing for samples is a different beast than writing for live players.

Its like playing a racing game simulator, sure it can get really close to the real thing in the top of the line models but even that is nothing compared to driving the real thing.

Now you say why not just use a synthesizer. Well while recording sampled strings cant recreate a live string section it *can* capture the 'tone' of a real string section. 

It's like saying why dont we just use a synthesizer for a choir instead of using the sampled vowel ahhhh. One sounds like a synthesizer and the other has the _tone_ of a choir....now you wouldn't write lines for your sampled choir as if it were real...why? because we havn't yet got to a stage in sampling where we can write for it like a live choir, there are too many subtitles that will be lost because of the samples, HOWEVER I have heard amazing things done with sampled choir...the reason? because the parts were written for _sampled_ choir and not a real one, the composers understood where the strengths and weaknesses were...they were not focused on the 'real' they were focused on the 'good sound' they write for it the way I think you should be looking at strings. As a sample. 

Spitfires samples are among the best out there and they keep getting better, that have perhaps the best 'tone' going around at the minute. However there are quite a few composer out there, many I know personally, who all use similar tricks to cover up flaws inherent with using samples...its appears here like control over the release time may be one of those things...it may not be real, but it helps us in the context of our actual end result...the most important part.

-DJ


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## antoniopandrade (Feb 18, 2013)

I absolutely agree with Ed and DJ on this one. It's pretty much the only thing that distracts from just writing/programming in Loegria. Yes, you can get achievable non-legato lines to flow in Loegria, but doing so and achieving realistic results is rather more troublesome than in many other string libraries that I've owned or used. I even went to the point of adding a delay so I wouldn't be bothered with it. There's nothing that breaks creativity more than having to minutely adjust all your midi notes' releases in your piano roll. I think SF always intended for you to use their strings in this manner as well, since the extended ranges on the legato patches in Loegria were an addition due to popular demand after the library was released. So this discussion about legato vs longs probably wouldn't even be happening if that had not happened. I actually like the idea that someone had in another thread I, I believe, about having a patch with AIR Lyndhurst hall noise, so the releases don't would feel sudden.

Also have you guys noticed that the "sucking" is only in the higher dynamic layers? I don't get it as much in the p - mp range. I speak from having Loegria btw, I don't yet own Sable.


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## windshore (Feb 18, 2013)

This thread has become completely bogged down on one small topic. Almost out of the gate, posts are obsessed with this release issue or non-issue. If we were true to the subject there would be at least more balance in discussing other aspects of the lib.


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## George Caplan (Feb 18, 2013)

windshore @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> This thread has become completely bogged down on one small topic. Almost out of the gate, posts are obsessed with this release issue or non-issue. If we were true to the subject there would be at least more balance in discussing other aspects of the lib.



its not a problem. it something that will need to be looked at and then decided by the guys at spitfire whether or not its either desirable or worth sorting out. i think everyone is very happy with the sound of sable.


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## Daniel James (Feb 18, 2013)

windshore @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> This thread has become completely bogged down on one small topic. Almost out of the gate, posts are obsessed with this release issue or non-issue. If we were true to the subject there would be at least more balance in discussing other aspects of the lib.



Haha from what I have heard (I don't have it)....the programming is top notch (I love Blake's work) The articulations are really flexible and useable and the tone is absolutely incredible. 

Debates don't tend to kick up around things that are unanimously accepted as awesome xD

-DJ


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## George Caplan (Feb 18, 2013)

i think i am feeling slightly uncomfortable about this thread.

what i would say is there may need to be some sort of clarification on the release issue before 02/28.


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## Echoes in the Attic (Feb 18, 2013)

Daniel James @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> I think what Ed is getting at is when you have lines that go one after the other, non legato. Particularly in chords.
> 
> I will say now I don't yet have Sable however I have noticed the exact thing people are talking about with regards to abrupt releases in other spitfire string libraries. When spitfire strings end, they stop. end of. When you have libraries like Symphobia they have an extended tail, it may perhaps be less real however it does serve to create a blur between parts which is much more pleasing to the ear. It would be awesome to have an option to increase the release a bit as others have suggested.



I also suggested this in an email to support long ago about the Albion series. 

However, Loegria is very different to the others. Loegria seems to have no release whatsoever. Even with all the ambient mics on, I hear no release when the longs end like I do with Albion I and Iceni. I think something is wrong with the Loegria patch. It seems that Spitfire usually include release samples with longs with the hall ambience of the chosen mic. Why not with Loegria? Sorry this getting off topic, maybe another thread for this?


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## hector (Feb 18, 2013)

Echoes in the Attic @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> I hear no release when the longs end like I do with Albion I and Iceni. I think something is wrong with the Loegria patch. It seems that Spitfire usually include release samples with longs with the hall ambience of the chosen mic. Why not with Loegria? Sorry this getting off topic, maybe another thread for this?


May be worth it to reinstall Loegria because it definitely has releases and they are noticable.


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## Echoes in the Attic (Feb 18, 2013)

Echoes in the Attic @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> Daniel James @ Mon Feb 18 said:
> 
> 
> > I think what Ed is getting at is when you have lines that go one after the other, non legato. Particularly in chords.
> ...



Edit: Now I'm not sure. I think the release tails came back but now I'm wondering if momentarily had it on shorts and was playing quick notes to test. I'll keep testing.


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## kb123 (Feb 18, 2013)

Indeed, this thread is silly, no doubt about it. Its been explained numerous times that these are not pad type articulations. You have to use the correct articulation combination to achieve the required sound, else just use a synth and make do with a synth's limitations!

If releases are playing sometimes and not others. Perhaps check to see that the patches are fully loaded prior to playing as I have had no such issues here.

Really guys, this is almost the most ridiculous thread I have seen on VI and that's saying something!


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## 667 (Feb 18, 2013)

Sounds great hector-- exactly how were you doing this in Albion/Sable? Extending the notes, using harder velocity to trigger stronger attack, something else?


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## Echoes in the Attic (Feb 18, 2013)

hector @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> Echoes in the Attic @ Mon Feb 18 said:
> 
> 
> > I hear no release when the longs end like I do with Albion I and Iceni. I think something is wrong with the Loegria patch. It seems that Spitfire usually include release samples with longs with the hall ambience of the chosen mic. Why not with Loegria? Sorry this getting off topic, maybe another thread for this?
> ...



Something is definitely wrong. Loegria Low and highs have no release with longs or legato. Albion I also has no release with the highs, but it does with the lows. But none of it's legatos have releases. Iceni longs have release but not the legato...

I think they came back for a minute and then I reloaded and they were gone. Or I'm going crazy.


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## Echoes in the Attic (Feb 18, 2013)

Patches are fully loaded. The reason it could be important is what if some people are getting this and some are not, thus resulting in different perceptions of the release? It could be possible. However this is derailing the sable discussion, so I should start a new thread for this.


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## 667 (Feb 18, 2013)

kb123 @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> Really guys, this is almost the most ridiculous thread I have seen on VI and that's saying something!


It's gone on far too long but at this point I think it's becoming one of the most useful in terms of getting the best sound out of Albion series sustains and possibly even deciding what is best/most useful way to have the patch programming.


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## hector (Feb 18, 2013)

Echoes in the Attic @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> However this is derailing the sable discussion, so I should start a new thread for this.


I can't see how it is worthwhile for anyone starting yet another thread... a much better idea would be to email Spitfire devs with your details so they can help you. Synethesia says many times they cannot provide support on forums



667 said:


> Sounds great hector-- exactly how were you doing this in Albion/Sable? Extending the notes, using harder velocity to trigger stronger attack, something else?


Just using the legato patch with polyphonic legato turned on and set to 4. For any notes to retrigger I use hard velocity to give harder attack.


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## Synesthesia (Feb 18, 2013)

Echoes, check the MAX VOICES counter and set it to a larger number. That may fix it. Please email our support email on your downloader email.

PADS - well, guys its my birthday today so I'm not going to go into a lot of details now.

I'll just leave you with this thought! Needless to say, we'll sort it. But I'm not changing the main patches because they function exactly as intended.


Cheers!

Paul







http://spitfire-webassets.s3.amazonaws. ... hjdjec.png


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## George Caplan (Feb 18, 2013)

VERY HAPPY BIRTHDAY PAUL.


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## antoniopandrade (Feb 18, 2013)

Why would this be a ridiculous thread when several longstanding members of the forum are chiming with useful feedback for the developer? Silly would be to ignore such feedback. And as usual, Spitfire is nothing but classy AND timely with it's customer support. And yes, HAPPY BIRTHDAY Paul! o-[][]-o


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## Echoes in the Attic (Feb 18, 2013)

hector @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> Echoes in the Attic @ Mon Feb 18 said:
> 
> 
> > However this is derailing the sable discussion, so I should start a new thread for this.
> ...



Yes I know, I will do so. But as I said before, in this particular case, there is a chance that other people may be missing the releases as well, giving the impression of a very abrupt cut off. Many people are confused in this thread thinking that people want a longer pad like release, which isn't true. People just want a slightly longer release tail. This is what I wanted, but then realized that the releases tails aren't there as they are supposed to be most of the time. It's possible others may have come across this as well.

I've realized that loading a multi in Loegria of the full strings somehow makes the releases kick in. I can then load the individual strings patch and the release is there all of a sudden. If I load a new Kontakt instance, it's gone again. And it's not to do with voice count. It's set to 512 and the issues happens with a single voice. I'll follow up with support.


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## devastat (Feb 18, 2013)

Hi Paul, are the additional mic positions made available soon?


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## kb123 (Feb 18, 2013)

antoniopandrade @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> Why would this be a ridiculous thread when several longstanding members of the forum are chiming with useful feedback for the developer? Silly would be to ignore such feedback. And as usual, Spitfire is nothing but classy AND timely with it's customer support. And yes, HAPPY BIRTHDAY Paul! o-[][]-o



Length of membership is not a measure of knowledge, particularly in a specific area. The thread is ridiculous because people are using patches in a way that cannot possibly show the library at its best. Its very easy to make anything sound crap when something is not used as intended when designed. Hope that clarifies.


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## EastWest Lurker (Feb 18, 2013)

kb123 @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> Its very easy to make anything sound crap when something is not used as intended when designed. Hope that clarifies.



i agree, I feel that sometimes some people here, when they get a new library, spend more time trying to find things that do not work the way they would like then enjoying the ones that work just the way the developer intended.

It's a little like getting involved with a new girlfriend and obsessing about her small breasts instead of focusing on her beautiful smile and sparkling wit


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 18, 2013)

Am I right in thinking that I can't add Sable's violins and celli to Kontatk's Librairies browser like I did with other Spitfire libraries? I just want to make sure I'm not just doing something wrong.


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## quantum7 (Feb 18, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> kb123 @ Mon Feb 18 said:
> 
> 
> > It's a little like getting involved with a new girlfriend and obsessing about her small breasts instead of focusing on her beautiful smile and sparkling wit




.....or my friend from Las Vegas who solely focuses on large breasted women then obsesses about her dim wit. :lol:


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## Daniel James (Feb 18, 2013)

Synesthesia @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> Echoes, check the MAX VOICES counter and set it to a larger number. That may fix it. Please email our support email on your downloader email.
> 
> PADS - well, guys its my birthday today so I'm not going to go into a lot of details now.
> 
> ...



And boom problem solved  I don't think anyone was demanding everything be changed. Options are always awesome. That is why we love Spitfire! They care! 

-DJ


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## Daniel James (Feb 18, 2013)

kb123 @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> antoniopandrade @ Mon Feb 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Why would this be a ridiculous thread when several longstanding members of the forum are chiming with useful feedback for the developer? Silly would be to ignore such feedback. And as usual, Spitfire is nothing but classy AND timely with it's customer support. And yes, HAPPY BIRTHDAY Paul! o-[][]-o
> ...



I assume this was aimed at me and the video I posted, so let me respond. The video wasn't created withe purpose of intentionally making something look 'crap'. It didnt sound as bad as it did because I 'don't know what I am doing' or because I "used the wrong patches"....I know how to use what and when.

What I WAS doing was trying to give a physical example as to what Ed was talking about in the thread previously, a point which I thought needed a video after seeing post after post of confusion asking what he was talking about. The video was a very clear example of the short release time in comparison to Symphobia (which was cited as an example before I used it) and it meant everyone was on the same page.

Let me get it straight. I love Spitfire's libraries, they are amazing. However I see nothing wrong with people raising concerns with a developer if there is something that is standing out to them. Developers read these forums, the ones that give a shit and care will interact with these people....case and point, concerns were raised, Paul comes in to say they are making pads. Problem solved.

People seem to forget that forums are where people have discussions. Rarely are they places for a communal circle jerk where we all lick each others asses and say how amazing everyone and everything is. No you come to the forum to raise concerns, to get advice and opinions. To have a nice heated debate about how you feel things should be done. That's what makes this forum as incredible as it is, its honest..its sometimes brutal, but as proved today by Paul saying pads are coming....It matters. 

So it really throws a wrench into the discussions when people come into a debate waving the offended flag saying...so and so said something nasty about developer x y z and or people only seem to comment on the bad things. When that is exactly why we are here, to have these discussions. Speaking personally anything negative I ever say about anything I back up, I'm not being malicious I am not being an asshole I just feel passionate about the industry I work in and if pushing back at it every now and again works for a greater good for the community I am more than prepared to throw my weight in.

I do agree with one thing you said however :o I know right  I don't think peoples opinions shouldn't be judged against how long they have been a member here. I think it should be 100% based on the work they produce. If you have an opinion on something you should have a way people can listen to what kind of end result you produce so people can see if they think your opinion is worth a shit to them. And if you have something negative to say you should back it up with evidence. That way the discussions are productive and constructive.

-DJ


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## kb123 (Feb 18, 2013)

Daniel James @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> kb123 @ Mon Feb 18 said:
> 
> 
> > antoniopandrade @ Mon Feb 18 said:
> ...



But Daniel, you are missing the point. Its not particularly constructive to post an unrealistic example of how the library should be used, for sure its going to sound bad ... what does it prove ... it proves that other patches are much more appropriate for that context. That's why I don't think it was particularly helpful in this instance. If one has a genuine criticism of some aspect of the library when used in the correct context, then it is constructive feedback. Hope that clarifies


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## Synesthesia (Feb 18, 2013)

Thanks George!

(last post - just popped back in quickly before I go out..)

Dan - absolutely, I agree and welcome constructive criticism and feedback.

Where it gets problematic for us (and I haven't watched your vid yet so this may not be the case!) is where people post stuff up that deliberately exaggerates a problem or makes something look bad out of context etc -- because then other people who haven't followed the discussion and understand the relative points, will just watch it and assume that its a crap library.

Thats my only issue. Anyway I'm back at work tomorrow so I'll be checking everything out and advancing the new idea.

Cheers!

Paul


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## Daniel James (Feb 18, 2013)

Synesthesia @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> Thanks George!
> 
> (last post - just popped back in quickly before I go out..)
> 
> ...



Hey Paul, 

The point of the video was to clearly show what Ed was talking about by the short release tails and 'sucking effect' when compared to other libraries like Symphobia. It wasn't designed to show the library at its best or worst, it was a functional example of the point being discussed. We all know how good samples can be in the right hands. People seem to have taken the video as me bashing you guys and being all like "Spitfire suckz Symphobia rulez" When we all know that isnt the case at all.

@kb123: You are missing the point I think. I never set out to make the library look good or bad. I was trying to show what was meant by it had SHORT RELEASE TIMES. Which it does, and you can see in the video it does. Just because you can make it sound better with more work doesn't change the fact that in the example I showed it had short release times. And you also have to keep in mind that some sustain articulations in Albion 2 dont have legato..for example how would one use the con sordino sustains in a fashion other than how I have done it? there is no con sordino legato.

I think to some people it is a 100% valid criticism to point out things like this...and thats not a criticism to take anything away from what Spitfire has achieved but a criticism to help improve the tools for composers that work that way. 



> Its not particularly constructive to post an unrealistic example of how the library should be used



I went into this in an earlier post, saying how the example I used with block chords is exactly how I use longs patches. Sure not everyone does, but I know for a fact I am not the only one who does in fact write some parts in that way.

-DJ


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## scientist (Feb 18, 2013)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> Am I right in thinking that I can't add Sable's violins and celli to Kontatk's Librairies browser like I did with other Spitfire libraries? I just want to make sure I'm not just doing something wrong.



i've always assumed that feature is only for kontakt player compatible libraries, so libs that require the full version of kontakt don't get the library function. i could be wrong though.


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## Echoes in the Attic (Feb 18, 2013)

Daniel James @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> Synesthesia @ Mon Feb 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks George!
> ...



Daniel, your video was perfectly fair. It didn't make it look crap, it just showed that in a very typical chord progression, the notes end quite abruptly and do give a bit of a sucking effect. I agree, what other type of use is there besides what you have posted? I've tended to use the sustain pedal to get around this with Spitfire libraries. My only problem with this is that you more often get more overlap then you want, rather than just the right amount of fade out over new notes. And just to clarify, this is when the chords are playing properly, not this problem I've recently encountered with release tails disappearing altogether.


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## 667 (Feb 18, 2013)

Daniel James @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> And you also have to keep in mind that some sustain articulations in Albion 2 dont have legato..for example how would one use the con sordino sustains in a fashion other than how I have done it? there is no con sordino legato.


Exactly! 

Although as previously mentioned, using harder velocity will give a faster attack in most Spitfire libraries. (I noticed your video was using very low velocities). It should be easy to extend note lengths by a set amount per-track so to create some overlap without manually editing notes as well. Well I would hope most DAWs support this anyway! 

Still, definitely appreciate Spitfire listening to users on this one!


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## kb123 (Feb 18, 2013)

Daniel James @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> @kb123: You are missing the point I think. I never set out to make the library look good or bad. I was trying to show what was meant by it had SHORT RELEASE TIMES. Which it does, and you can see in the video it does. Just because you can make it sound better with more work doesn't change the fact that in the example I showed it had short release times. And you also have to keep in mind that some sustain articulations in Albion 2 dont have legato..for example how would one use the con sordino sustains in a fashion other than how I have done it? there is no con sordino legato.



Daniel, I don't believe you are so naive, to not know that video was nonconstructive. Plenty of folks on this thread have voiced the same opinions as me. Anyway I'm not going to prolong this nonsense further.


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## George Caplan (Feb 18, 2013)

kb123 @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> Daniel James @ Mon Feb 18 said:
> 
> 
> > @kb123: You are missing the point I think. I never set out to make the library look good or bad. I was trying to show what was meant by it had SHORT RELEASE TIMES. Which it does, and you can see in the video it does. Just because you can make it sound better with more work doesn't change the fact that in the example I showed it had short release times. And you also have to keep in mind that some sustain articulations in Albion 2 dont have legato..for example how would one use the con sordino sustains in a fashion other than how I have done it? there is no con sordino legato.
> ...



what this illustrates to me is different types of musicians writing in varying styles have different playing techniques and if you are writing to samples as daniel points out then its a good idea to have varied sample patches that can accommodate those techniques. i think that makes good commercial sense and also nurtures confidence in the developers. its not really nonsense.


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## Daniel James (Feb 18, 2013)

kb123 @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> Daniel James @ Mon Feb 18 said:
> 
> 
> > @kb123: You are missing the point I think. I never set out to make the library look good or bad. I was trying to show what was meant by it had SHORT RELEASE TIMES. Which it does, and you can see in the video it does. Just because you can make it sound better with more work doesn't change the fact that in the example I showed it had short release times. And you also have to keep in mind that some sustain articulations in Albion 2 dont have legato..for example how would one use the con sordino sustains in a fashion other than how I have done it? there is no con sordino legato.
> ...



Haha explain to me how it was nonconstructive. It clearly showed the issue being discussed. I back up what I say in the video with both visual and audio evidence. I explain thats how I write parts and how the option to increase release times would be a benefit to composers like me. Then we get word that pads are now in development. I would say it was a prime example of being constructive. 

You don't get to just call someone naive and then walk away mate, if you have an opinion back it up and debate it like an adult dont just start calling names and walking away. For example you said the lines I used in the video are unrealistic uses of the library...so going back to my question, how would I write for articulations that do not have legato like the con sordino? how is what I wrote inappropriate for that patch? that's kind of what the longs get used for, particularly when they are mid or background elements and don't require all the flourishes of a foreground element.

You are more than entitled to your opinion on the matter but you can't call me out on a point then not defend your own angle on it saying other people agree with your opinion like it makes it valid. Debate me dammit XD thats why we are here, walking away in a strop helps nobody. Passionately defending your side opens peoples minds to new ideas, walking away solves nothing.

-DJ


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## kb123 (Feb 18, 2013)

Daniel, I stand by my statement, and if you don't understand what the problem is and are blind to the comments raised on your video, there is no point in discussing the matter. As a point of correction, I didn't call you naive, I said I *didn't believe* you were so naive you didn't get what people were trying to tell you on this thread.


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## Arbee (Feb 18, 2013)

Ed tried to explain something. Daniel made a track to help illustrate Ed's issue. Then we get all this :shock: >8o . What the...?!

What I like about this forum is that we have composers who approach the use of sample libraries from many different perspectives, from tradtional orchestration to sound design. I value that enormously as I might learn something that helps me broaden my thinking and my approach. Just saying...... o-[][]-o 

.


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## Ed (Feb 18, 2013)

How has there been another days worth of comments and there are those that still saying that people like me and Dan are "using it wrong" but still cant answer the most fundamental questions I asked in this post? Even Dan has asked these questions since but just keeps being told the same thing without explanation. I was going to make my own audio examples, but if Im just going to be told that im using it wrong first I would like to know what is the actual claimed intended use of these, because I cant think of many times this abrupt note end is even desirable. To me this has now moved on from the SF products being used as examples and now onto midi mockups themselves a subject which I'm obviously quite interested in. If somehow there's some technique I'm not aware of to make better mockups, then I'd really like to know about it.

With the "pad" issue being provided in another patch we would also probably need the release tail volume itself to be controllable or thats still going to jump out when you release the key, or something. But anyway this is a good step.



Ed @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> hector @ Mon Feb 18 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't understand your point on this - now we _do_ have legato samples... We dont need to rely on synthetic sounding ADSR tricks anymore
> ...


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## playz123 (Feb 18, 2013)

'Late to the party'...again, but I'll just add that Daniel's video clearly illustrated to me what the discussion is about....and I agree with the point that was made. I also understand the purpose of the video, and am not really sure why anyone would be upset with it *except*, as someone else pointed out, if it is viewed out of context by others who are unfamiliar with its purpose and this discussion. Under those conditions, the information could indeed be misinterpreted by someone, even VI members, and even if the video is "unlisted". Perhaps Daniel might consider removing it in a few days once everyone here has probably seen it?? Too bad VI doesn't have its own private 'YouTube' type video section.  In any case, just my '2 pennies worth', and since we no longer mint pennies here in Canada, it's probably not worth very much. 

PS: "HAPPY BIRTHDAY, PAUL!" I've honoured you by purchasing the full Sable package today!


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## 667 (Feb 18, 2013)

Well, I love Loegria (it's the first thing I reach for every time) but having seen DJ's video I have noticed this same issue myself and had just never put a name to it. Whether Albion should change releases or I need to find/use another workaround I have not made up my mind yet but glad to see SF investigating it and hopefully we will get something that everyone will be happy with.


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## Diffusor (Feb 18, 2013)

Ed @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> jamwerks @ Mon Feb 18 said:
> 
> 
> > I watched the YOUTUbe thing. The Symphobia string patch that you use there is programmed like a synth with long releases. Seems to me you're using the wrong patch in SF. You really need to have 3 legato lines going there..
> ...



You use sustains I imagine because you want to hear the attack of a new note rather than blending into like with a legato patch. You can create flowing lines with sustains with the mod wheel in any event. Take a look at Adagios's Dynamic Bowings which has the modwheel baked in the recording so to speak, and sounds beautiful.


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## Guy Rowland (Feb 18, 2013)

Ed @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> I would like to know what is the actual claimed intended use of these, because I cant think of many times this abrupt note end is even desirable.



Hi Ed - actually I think they're spot on (with regard to regular patches). The fade out - even a relatively short one - is a terribly unnatural sound. It is physically impossible for a string player to play, so it sounds wrong to me *(wildy OT tangent below). All it can ever be is a trick - it works ok as a pad, as ably demonstrated by Mr James. But for normal use, I'd want it exactly as it is, and ride CC1 a little for the transitions between notes.

Given that the R time varies a lot within the patch, I think the Spitfire folks' solution - have a separate pad patch - is exactly right. Of course the best solution would be poly legato for all the long articulations and keep the sustain going, a la LASS - their AA divisi patches are simply sublime. And the good news - this will be forthcoming in Sable vol 3 I think.

Pads aside, this kind of very short release is almost always desirable to me, cos that's how strings are.

Good thread btw, despite the hysterical over-reactions on the part of some!

*[WILDY OT TANGENT] In 1999 I saw the solar eclipse in the UK. An absolutely incredible experience. Nothing much happens across the whole hour before totality, until the final 2 or 3 minutes. Then it's mind-altering, because the world FADES OUT. It's like a visual effect, a totally unnatural feeling cos the world never does this. It's the best analogy I can think of to describe the difference between riding down velocity and bow off and increasing the release time.[/WILDLY OT TANGENT]


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## Ed (Feb 19, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Tue Feb 19 said:


> Hi Ed - actually I think they're spot on (with regard to regular patches). The fade out - even a relatively short one - is a terribly unnatural sound.



I keep being told that but still not given a scenario where you'd use it. A strident detache type thing maybe, then it could be preferable, but for softer more flowing smooth adagioish lines? I dont see it. Look at all these people that have noticed it, do they just not know what real strings sounds like?



> All it can ever be is a trick - it works ok as a pad, as ably demonstrated by Mr James. But for normal use, I'd want it exactly as it is, and ride CC1 a little for the transitions between notes.



Which one do you like better in Dan's example? The Symphobia version or the Albion 2 one with the short release? It seems everyone that has seen the video says the Symphobia one sounds better, but that this isnt how you're "meant" to use the Albion 2 patch. So, how *are *you meant to be using it? 



> It is physically impossible for a string player to play, so it sounds wrong to me *



Its also unnatural for the note to just abruptly end, thats why people notice this at all. Its one of the most distracting indicators of a midi mockup when I hear it. I've noticed that ever since I started back when the most modern sample orchestra library at the time was Miroslav. Someone said that its realistic to have it stop like that, so does that mean legato is more realistic? If it was already realistic why bother with legato transitions at all?


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## kb123 (Feb 19, 2013)

Seems to me, there is a fundamental misunderstanding of what it is that libraries such as these bring to the table, and how they should be used to get the best out of them.

Sable is not Symphobia. It is meant to be used in a specific way, to produce the most realistic results. I really am at a loss why people refuse to acknowledge this, and continue to say that it should be possible to get good results when playing a particular artic outwith the context it was intended for. 

In addition to selecting the correct artic for the situation, it needs to be played in a manner that reflects how a real string player would play it. It is quite shocking to me that people use a synth as the base line against which a library such as Sable should perform.


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## Ed (Feb 19, 2013)

*@kb123*: You can keep saying that but you're still not saying what the sustains were intended for, if not for this. Also we are being told contradictory things. First, its realistic for it to sound this way, then we're told it is unrealistic but thats just people not using it correctly.... so... which is it?


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## clynos (Feb 19, 2013)

Basically, release tails on strings will simulate the players ending, and starting their note at sligtly different times. If the library consisted of many solo strings played seperately, then you wouldnt need release tails.

Im talking about non legato patches of course.


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## hector (Feb 19, 2013)

Ed said:


> but you're still not saying how its "meant" to be used. What were the sustains intended for, if not for this?


'Sustained' notes I imagine - nothing more, nothing less. Can you actually post some live string pieces that behave in the way you're wanting the patch to work? (honest question, I'm curious)



clynos @ Tue Feb 19 said:


> Basically, release tails on strings will simulate the players ending, and starting their note at sligtly different times. If the library consisted of many solo strings played seperately, then you wouldnt need release tails.
> 
> I'm talking about non legato patches of course.


Sorry but this is incorrect. Solo Strings would (and do) need and contain release tails because more importantly than the player's ending, they maintain the presence of the room the players are recorded within. Without the release tail the reverberation, reflections and air of the room disappear and it sounds completely unnatural.[/quote]


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## Ed (Feb 19, 2013)

Hector the fact that people were saying you should use the legato patch instead, and thats why it sounds the way we're saying it does, is an admission that it isnt realistic

And yes, clynos its different if you have a hall


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## George Caplan (Feb 19, 2013)

couple of things and maybe someone could correct me if im way out plain wrong. but i spend a bit of time going to concerts.

string players can fade out the sound. what they cant do is simulate fade out that includes reverb if its a small room and virtually none present. but they can diminuendo until the cows come home. thats not release. 
therefore using samples as opposed comparisons with real playing is a redundant exercise. 

you cannot seriously think that there is a defined way of using sampled orchestral instruments from a keyboard and computer the way you would get to it in a concert hall.
so anyone buying these products should feel as free as they can to use them anyway they want to get to the sound that is best.
forget about how they were designed and rules. thats not happening. but if you can get these products to sound like the real thing then all well and good too.


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## kosi (Feb 19, 2013)

Hi there, 
the library sounds really marvelous and works extremely well with LASS.
The playability is outstanding, I love, love, love it  yummy

Here a few little things:

on all legato brushes expression isn't working.

on the legato patches (Main and Stereo) Vibrato are assigned to cc11, speed and expression to no CC. When I assign expression to cc 11, I see the slider move, but nothing happens.
When I assign Vibrato to CC21, it works as expected. Same with Speed, works perfect.

After the legatos have loaded, I hear no release samples, I have to move the dynamics slider, then they "appear".

On the Vi long, the max voices is on 32, thats maxed out, when you press a 3 voice chord.

I am not a big friend of the fact, that a mic position unloads, if the fader is all the way down. I'd rather click it away.

How can I load the extended arrays ?


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## clynos (Feb 19, 2013)

I guess we were talking about different types of release tails. I didnt mean the recorded release but the fading of the playing. Adsr release. I think what symphobia does is to have the string fade out, and at the same time play the release tail hall sample.


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## Ed (Feb 19, 2013)

Kosi, you can change the max voices to whatever you want


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## Guy Rowland (Feb 19, 2013)

Ed @ Tue Feb 19 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Tue Feb 19 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Ed - actually I think they're spot on (with regard to regular patches). The fade out - even a relatively short one - is a terribly unnatural sound.
> ...



Well, you said you couldn't imagine a use for the sound as it is - my point is that it works for everything just fine where you'd want the bow to leave the string. I guess what a pad is doing is emulating legato - the notes are meant to souind connected, but of course it's a fudge. So I agree legato is the correct patch for the kind of playing used in Dan's video - again, LASS' AA divisi poly legato is the best I've ever heard for making this sound effortlessly real (way better than either Symphobia or the Sable example on that non-legato patch, which is perhaps unsurprising).

The point still stands - having pad variations for stuff like Sordinos until the legato patches are ready will be very useful. I'd have thought poly legato with sustain on would sound better for the normal longs now - why not try it, see how it goes? (I assume Sable has poly legato....)


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## Drew Buchan (Feb 19, 2013)

I think Daniel's comments and videos have been perfectly respectful to Spitfire, pertinent and constructive with regard to his views about the issue at hand. 

Indeed I think everyone who has observed this behaviour, has clearly spoken to say how much they admire and love Spitfire in general. There is an awful lot of goodwill towards Spitfire (justifiably).

What is strange is that some members who disagree with original points raised by Ed, Daniel and others feel they are entitled to declare the discussion over, or "silly", simply because they have had their say and declared the issue a non-issue (or worse insinuated that others do not know how to use their tools).


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## JAM (Feb 19, 2013)

In my opinion the release tails in Sable are no different from the tails of VSL and Hollywood Strings. So when using the sustain patches in all these libraries in a manner of travelling through chord progressions you do get the sucking effect. So like a lot of people I tend to use the legato patches whilst riding the velocity in these instances,

.... but I am very thankful to Paul for adding the ADSR option so now we all have a variety of ways on how we would like to use Sable. Also Daniel J has done on this topic what he normally does and that’s to help people and I am very thankful of all the input he puts into these forums as a knowledgeable programmer and composer.


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## Echoes in the Attic (Feb 19, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Tue Feb 19 said:


> (I assume Sable has poly legato....)



Don't think so. Spitfire don't do poly legato. Except for the split they allow by velocity. But that's not a real-time playing technique. You split the velocities and assign the ranges to different legato lines as far as I know. I don't personally use it. Nothin like LASS or Cinesamples where you can actually play legato polyphonically. If this changed in Sable I apologize.


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## antoniopandrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Echoes in the Attic @ Tue Feb 19 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Tue Feb 19 said:
> 
> 
> > (I assume Sable has poly legato....)
> ...



It still qualifies as poly-legato. And as far as sequencing goes, it's a great and hassle-free method of creating multiple legato lines with just one legato instrument. The drawback is that you can't really play it in live, but what I tend to do is use the longs to play then copy the midi over to the legato patches, where I properly program in the velocities.


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## Synesthesia (Feb 19, 2013)

Copied from Ed's other thread.

Please -- lets carry on that discussion of 'sucking' over there, and keep this thread to other *non-sucking* feedback on Sable!

Cheers!

Paul
:D

*****************
Hmm. Many moot points here. I agree with Jay in a way as well - BUT also if you want to play the stuff like pads thats cool too. I find it quite hard when I'm playing to not carry at least one note from one chord to the next because I like that in string writing.

However I've made a video that hopefully explains very clearly what I'm talking about. I've put every mic at full volume so its clear I'm not trying to hide something.

I also think that Daryl and Radec are on the money in that all I'm saying is if you want it to sound more realistic, USE THE MODWHEEL!! You can't expect to play a static series of block chords with no dynamic and have it sound realistic, its as far from what string players do as possible.

Its like playing a heavily quantised piano part in with every note at the same velocity and wondering why it sounds mechanical.

Anyway - please have a look at this. Its unlisted, because 99.99% of our users do not have this issue. I promise you. Nevertheless, we are making a set of patches that you can 'pad-ise' with ADSR.

Hopefully this will be seen as a positive step, because I'm simply not prepared to change the main patches so they don't function as I intend them to! I think they are correct at the moment!

All the best,

Paul


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## Synesthesia (Feb 19, 2013)

WHOOPS! 

Hang on, I need to rebounce the vid. I still had a warm hall on there at -18.5db (which is why I didn't realise as I was playing) but obviously it has a background effect. 

I'm literally just rebouncing it in protools and will then immediately re-up to youtube. It doesn't have any effect on the sound of what I've done but I want to ensure what I'm putting up is 100% honest. Sorry guys, I just booted up my last demo session (Bredon Dusk sesh) and enabled the input from Kontakt and my mic channel.. DOH 

gimme 15 mins


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## dcoscina (Feb 19, 2013)

Here's a little Sable demo I did along with Albion I and Percussion also from Spitfire.

http://snd.sc/Xg0nG0


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## 667 (Feb 19, 2013)

Great video, Paul-- I find myself quite convinced with the Spitfire approach (hearing the players stop in the note-end sample). 

I think you're addressing this issue really well in terms of both education and making 'tweakable release' sustain patches for those that want them. I mentioned velocity / attack already in this thread, but this video shows it clearly and I think learning how Spitfire libraries respond are key to getting the most out of them (which is pretty much a truism for any modern strings library). 

edit: is it just me or am I starting to sound like a Spitfire sock puppet account?


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## Guy Rowland (Feb 20, 2013)

Has anyone used Sable yet with LASS? If so, how is it?


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## dcoscina (Feb 20, 2013)

I only have one issue with Sable- 

I need more SUCKING! Paul, can you add a "sucking depth" knob or button in the rev 1.1 please? 



Too soon?


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## jamwerks (Feb 20, 2013)

Nice Video Paul and useful info. You might just want to do a violin pad patch a see what kind of reactions you get. It may turn out that 99.9% percent of Sable users won't want it anyway, so no use doing celli and other....


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## Dan Mott (Feb 20, 2013)

I think the library sounds amazing. I think this is perfect for the market right now. It needs more chamber ensembles, ect. Big hollywood ensembles just don't work on every track.

Other companies should follow. Perhaps Nick and Thomas could do a QL Chamber Strings library. ;D


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## renegade (Feb 20, 2013)

Am I the only one who needs more legato demos to be convinced to buy this?

Judging from the demos so far, I'm not quite sure. Especially the demos showing Sables legato capabilities, have change my mind from “OMG! MUST HAVE!!” till “maybe...maybe not”.

The “GlassHouse” demo in particular worries me (nothing wrong with the composition btw). This is suppose to show how great the legato works, but to me, it actually shows the quite opposite. The sound/timbre/tone is good, but the timing seems somewhat off. There's no way a professional string ensemble would play this sloppy/uneven in real life.
The cello section sounds like it's struggles to find the tempo. The violins is way off in the “fast” passages – and again – professional musicians could _easily_ play this 100% tight and smooth. That's what characterize trained musicians: It sounds like they are not struggling – they make it sound easy.

I'm not saying I'm not buying. The longs and shorts sounds great and could easily be very useful for a lot of things. But the legato patches seems (from the demos so far) to need (at least) some tweaking to work.

I'm very curious what others think about this. And if anyone can produce an even/smooth and tight medium tempo legato melody line with Sable, I would love to hear that too!!!


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## XcesSound (Feb 21, 2013)

renegade @ Wed Feb 20 said:


> Am I the only one who needs more legato demos to be convinced to buy this?
> 
> Judging from the demos so far, I'm not quite sure. Especially the demos showing Sables legato capabilities, have change my mind from “OMG! MUST HAVE!!” till “maybe...maybe not”.
> 
> ...



I agree with you here. I'm holding out my purchase until I hear more demos. The current demos are good works musically, but I do know what you mean by the legatos. They sound good, but necessarily 'real' compared to a real string ensemble. Listen through some string only pieces on spotify will aggregate this. Still a little rigid... Those shorts and pizzicato are absolutely wonderful though.


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## Justus (Feb 21, 2013)

Just tried SABLE for the first time.
First impression: Stunning! The sound is so organic, emotional, inspiring!


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## renegade (Feb 21, 2013)

XcesSound @ Thu 21 Feb said:


> renegade @ Wed Feb 20 said:
> 
> 
> > Am I the only one who needs more legato demos to be convinced to buy this?
> ...



Well, ”real” is always a controversial word  As real as possible of course... But I would really like if the _timing_ was there and I can't tell from what I've heard so far.


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## Ed (Feb 21, 2013)

I think if you dont buy into it now you'll regret it once Vol 3 comes out and we get stuff like sordino legato. Just look that that art list! Thats extremely exciting to me. 

Despite my public disagreement over this one thing, due to being an obsessive about sample mockups, its still a definite must have 9 out of 10 even for me.


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## Guy Rowland (Feb 21, 2013)

Still keen to hear how it works with LASS... any feedback? I played around again today with the small divis in LASS, and I have to say Sable sounds quite different to me. I think LASS works best when combining divisi to create a large section that isn't a wash, Sable I think works better for a small detailed sound. But I'm still intrigued as to how the two play together.


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## Rob Elliott (Feb 21, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Thu Feb 21 said:


> Still keen to hear how it works with LASS... any feedback? I played around again today with the small divis in LASS, and I have to say Sable sounds quite different to me. I think LASS works best when combining divisi to create a large section that isn't a wash, Sable I think works better for a small detailed sound. But I'm still intrigued as to how the two play together.




+1 (as well as CS co-exist)


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## renegade (Feb 21, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Thu 21 Feb said:


> Still keen to hear how it works with LASS... any feedback? I played around again today with the small divis in LASS, and I have to say Sable sounds quite different to me. I think LASS works best when combining divisi to create a large section that isn't a wash, Sable I think works better for a small detailed sound. But I'm still intrigued as to how the two play together.



Yeah, I have also played a lot around with LASS in order to figure out if I really need Sable. I agree that LASS works best when combining divisi. The divisis alone can work sometimes, but also tend to be a little bumpy/uneven at some notes/transitions and the tuning some places a little to loose.

The sound of LASS is quite different and I'm not able to tweak it so they sound the same or similar. It's the hall that makes the difference I guess. LASS is more upfront while Sable is more laid back, as I hear it.

If someone makes some cool legato demos from Sable I'll buy it and tell you all about it


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## renegade (Feb 21, 2013)

Ed @ Thu 21 Feb said:


> I think if you dont buy into it now you'll regret it once Vol 3 comes out and we get stuff like sordino legato. Just look that that art list! Thats extremely exciting to me.
> 
> Despite my public disagreement over this one thing, due to being an obsessive about sample mockups, its still a definite must have 9 out of 10 even for me.



Thanks for your very short review  Yes vol. three looks very interesting indeed!


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## Synesthesia (Feb 21, 2013)

Just a note.. by the time we release v1.1 (in around 1 week) we will have spent about 2 weeks working on the legatos among other stuff.

Its one of those things that while you are programming it all sounds great, when you start using it you notice a few tweaks that you need to make. You just have to write with it, then the ideas for good tweaks pop out.

Just wanted to put that out there! I'll try and get some more leg demos up before we hit the offer deadline but I'm working hard of Albion v4 at the mo.


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## Darthmorphling (Feb 21, 2013)

Synesthesia @ Thu Feb 21 said:


> Just a note.. by the time we release v1.1 (in around 1 week) we will have spent about 2 weeks working on the legatos among other stuff.
> 
> Its one of those things that while you are programming it all sounds great, when you start using it you notice a few tweaks that you need to make. You just have to write with it, then the ideas for good tweaks pop out.
> 
> Just wanted to put that out there! I'll try and get some more leg demos up before we hit the offer deadline but I'm working hard of Albion v4 at the mo.



Please do nothing until Albion v4 is complete :mrgreen: Then please do a video showing how it combines with Sable as I really want to buy Sable, but want to see it's integration with my only other library!

The walkthroughs are sounding phenomenal by the way.

Thanks,

Don


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## renegade (Feb 21, 2013)

Synesthesia @ Thu 21 Feb said:


> Just a note.. by the time we release v1.1 (in around 1 week) we will have spent about 2 weeks working on the legatos among other stuff.
> 
> Its one of those things that while you are programming it all sounds great, when you start using it you notice a few tweaks that you need to make. You just have to write with it, then the ideas for good tweaks pop out.
> 
> Just wanted to put that out there! I'll try and get some more leg demos up before we hit the offer deadline but I'm working hard of Albion v4 at the mo.



As mentioned, it would be great with some more legato demos. How to use them with the vibrato, the different legato articulations and so on. Lots of playing and little talking, that is!  

Looking forward to the Albion update as well  

Cheers!


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## Ed (Feb 21, 2013)

Rob Elliott @ Thu Feb 21 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Thu Feb 21 said:
> 
> 
> > Still keen to hear how it works with LASS... any feedback? I played around again today with the small divis in LASS, and I have to say Sable sounds quite different to me. I think LASS works best when combining divisi to create a large section that isn't a wash, Sable I think works better for a small detailed sound. But I'm still intrigued as to how the two play together.
> ...



Hey Rob, I am thinking about doing a demo in the next week or whatever but if it helps I can I tell you just loading them up together without even any additional reverb that they seem to blend beautifully IMO. What I noticed was how much darker a tone (if that makes sense) CS2 is compared to Sable. CS2 has a very rich, soft and airyness to it and personally think they work really well layered on top of each other with Sable providing more detail and clarity than you'd find in CS2. And of course you have the crazy amount of mic options with Sable, which I actually think I'm going to use, so you have a nice lot of options for shaping it with CS2. Now I dont have LASS so cant tell how different that would sound layered but I really love what this is going to bring to my palette of sounds. And contrary to some one user said I think the high notes are really some of the best aspect of the library. I dont think you can really go wrong buying the full package, and although it seems a lot of money upfront to wait maybe 6 or more months to see completed, especially if you gotta pay tax (OUCH), I've never been so excited about those arts in Vol 3, miss out on the deal and you gonna pay a lot more!


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## Caedwallon (Feb 22, 2013)

I have questions for Sable users.

For the price point (disregarding discounts), would I be better off buying VSL Chamber I & II Bundle? No, I don't require the "AIR" sound.

I was listening to the Legato walk-through on my laptop (it has a crappy audio output, mind you), I thought the Violins sounded a bit too pitchy at higher octaves (not the sustains, just the legato intervals). Any thoughts?


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## JT (Feb 22, 2013)

Caedwallon @ Fri Feb 22 said:


> I have questions for Sable users.
> 
> For the price point (disregarding discounts), would I be better off buying VSL Chamber I & II Bundle? No, I don't require the "AIR" sound.
> 
> I was listening to the Legato walk-through on my laptop (it has a crappy audio output, mind you), I thought the Violins sounded a bit too pitchy at higher octaves (not the sustains, just the legato intervals). Any thoughts?



There's no right answer here, it's pretty subjective. Let me say I don't have VSL's Chamber strings, I have SE 1 & 2. That being said, my personal preference and workflow has led me away from VSL. Even though the Vienna Instrument player and VI Pro are very powerful, I don't really enjoy using them. I much prefer Spitfire's interface and programming. That's enough to tilt the scales toward Sable for me. But you might be different. Your call.

As far as the fiddles being "too pitchy", I really don't know what you mean by that. But to my ears, the Sable strings so far are the best that I've heard.

JT


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## Rich Pell (Feb 27, 2013)

Theres no way of just ordering Vol .2 at the discounted price once youve bought and recieved Vol. 1 ?

Rich


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