# Cinesamples cinewinds core now available for download!



## Cinesamples (Apr 30, 2012)

Hi all, 

Here is the announcement video! Demos and screencasts and further info to follow shortly!





More to come in this thread...

Best, 
Cinesamples Team


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 30, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples Announces CineWinds! Promo video added.*

Time to start saving up! VERY excited! _-) =o o-[][]-o o=? !


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## noiseboyuk (Apr 30, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples Announces CineWinds! Promo video added.*

Looking good!

I think I've pleaded with these promo vids before, but I do find the music laid over it intrusive in places, especially when those talented folks are demoing their instruments, playing phrases etc, it's a pretty ugly clash. Just a polite plea to leave a bit more space in the next promo. 

Will the ethnic stuff be across both Core and Pro, folks?


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## Ed (Apr 30, 2012)

Yey next gen woods era begin :D

Will the core instruments be complete?


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## Resoded (Apr 30, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples Announces CineWinds! Promo video added.*

Looking forward to this!


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## Dmitry Noskov (Apr 30, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples Announces CineWinds! Promo video added.*

First in the line! o[])


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## synthetic (Apr 30, 2012)

Looks cool! Unclear if ethnic winds are included in core or pro, or split?


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## Cinesamples (Apr 30, 2012)

CineWinds Core = Piccolo, Flute, Oboe, Clarinet, Bassoon
CineWinds Pro = Alto Flute, Bass Flute, English Horn, Eb Clarinet, Bass Clarinet, Contrabassoon plus ALL the ethnic winds.

The video doesn't mention duduk and a few others which are in the library. I'll get you a complete list in a bit.

M


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## JT (Apr 30, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples Announces CineWinds! Promo video added.*

This sounds really great. Glad that the instruments covered in the core library are complete.


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## Maestro77 (Apr 30, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples Announces CineWinds! Promo video added.*

I'm excited! 2 questions that probably won't be answered but I'll try anyway. :D 

1. Tentative release date?
2. How much?


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## Ed (Apr 30, 2012)

Would love to see an art list with how many dynamics round robins etc


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## Simon Ravn (May 1, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples Announces CineWinds! Promo video added.*

Exciting! Only solo instruments....?? I cant listen to the video with sound right now, so maybe I missed info about ensembles in the voice over 8)


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## jamwerks (May 1, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples Announces CineWinds! Promo video added.*



Simon Ravn @ Tue May 01 said:


> Only solo instruments....?



I was wondering the same thing? No a3 patches?


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## EastWest Lurker (May 1, 2012)

Congrats Mike and Mike.


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## Casey Edwards (May 1, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples Announces CineWinds! Promo video added.*



jamwerks @ Tue May 01 said:


> Simon Ravn @ Tue May 01 said:
> 
> 
> > Only solo instruments....?
> ...



I'm SO glad they didn't waste time with ensemble patches. Solo winds is definitely where the magic is at. If anything, I think we should be asking for multiple players for next gen. wind libraries. 

(i.e.)
Flute 1
Flute 2 (different sessions, different players, same charts with the same patch programming)

Also, I'm really hoping for trill patches that extend up to a P5th. Symphonic Sphere looks cool and all, but I'd like solo instruments to be able to do this. AT LEAST m2, M2, m3, and M3 intervals would be cool and cover most grounds.


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## Graham Keitch (May 1, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples Announces CineWinds! Promo video added.*



Casey Edwards @ Tue May 01 said:


> jamwerks @ Tue May 01 said:
> 
> 
> > Simon Ravn @ Tue May 01 said:
> ...




I share your viewpoint to a degree, ie if you have the resources and time to build ensembles. But given we already have Westgate and XSample solo woods, there's a gap in the market for say 3x flutes ensemble and 3x oboe ensemble as required in many larger orchestral scores. They did it with CineBrass (solo and ensembles) so I'm not sure why they wouldn't want to do it for woods.

Completely with you on the trills! I bought Sphere for the strings but it's such a shame the woods aren't solo. Even worse, it's an entire wood ensemle which doesn't work for me at all.

Regards, Graham


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## Casey Edwards (May 1, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples Announces CineWinds! Promo video added.*



Graham Keitch @ Tue May 01 said:


> Casey Edwards @ Tue May 01 said:
> 
> 
> > jamwerks @ Tue May 01 said:
> ...



Actually WestGate have Ensemble patches for Flute, Oboe, Clarinet, and Bassoons. I never use them, but they are there. I should experiment with them one day, but I much prefer (theoretically at this point), just doubling solo patches from different libraries/players. At the moment I only use Westgate. I almost bought some VSL winds but decided to see what East West and Cinesamples have to offer.


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## jamwerks (May 1, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples Announces CineWinds! Promo video added.*



Graham Keitch @ Tue May 01 said:


> I bought Sphere for the strings but it's such a shame the woods aren't solo. Even worse, it's an entire wood ensemle which doesn't work for me at all.



+ 1

Even if CW doesn't have ensemble winds, I'm sure HW will. Guess we'll have to buy both ! :mrgreen:


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## Simon Ravn (May 1, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples Announces CineWinds! Promo video added.*



Casey Edwards @ Tue May 01 said:


> jamwerks @ Tue May 01 said:
> 
> 
> > Simon Ravn @ Tue May 01 said:
> ...



I don't agree. Just like any other instrument (strings, brass) an ensemble sounds different. A flute ensemble (2 or 3) sounds very different from a solo (or two solos). Same with clarinets, you get a much fuller sound, and with bassoons, same thing.


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## Graham Keitch (May 1, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples Announces CineWinds! Promo video added.*



Simon Ravn @ Tue May 01 said:


> Casey Edwards @ Tue May 01 said:
> 
> 
> > jamwerks @ Tue May 01 said:
> ...



Yep, that's because individual players in an ensemble aren't (shouldn't be) playing as if they were individual soloists. The sound will be different.

RE an earlier post - yes, Westgate does have ensembles and I do use them. As with any lib, it would be good to have an alternative which is why I'm hoping CineWinds will have ensembles with true legato  

Graham


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## reddognoyz (May 1, 2012)

must...hear....demo's.........can't wait....


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## Hanu_H (May 1, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples Announces CineWinds! Promo video added.*

I am excited about this, I really need some new woodwinds. But not sure what to think about the ethnics. I think they should have focused on the orchestral stuff with multiple soloist and sections and leave the ethnics in to a separate session. And also sell it separately. I am after the orchestral winds and I don't need the ethnics at the moment, maybe later. I would love it to be the only woodwind library I would need, but I am afraid that it's not gonna be deep enough. Kind of CineBrass. I am sure it's gonna sound great and be really useful. Just hoping that it has all the basic articulations including trills and such with soloists and sections. The only problem I have with CineBrass is that there is lots of patches I never use(chord patches for example) and no trills or other playing techniques you can't mimic with basic articulations.

I am hoping that all my fears are pointless and CineSamples will blow my mind with it. Waiting for the articulation list. :D 

-Hannes


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## RiffWraith (May 1, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples Announces CineWinds! Promo video added.*



Simon Ravn @ Tue May 01 said:


> Casey Edwards @ Tue May 01 said:
> 
> 
> > jamwerks @ Tue May 01 said:
> ...



Must agree with Simon. Ensemble patches must be made up of multiple players playing simul - not individual players combined after the fact. That's not an ensemble.

Eagerly awaiting demos.....


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## EastWest Lurker (May 1, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples Announces CineWinds! Promo video added.*



RiffWraith @ Tue May 01 said:


> Simon Ravn @ Tue May 01 said:
> 
> 
> > Casey Edwards @ Tue May 01 said:
> ...



I think this is far less important with winds than brass or strings. Most composers don't use them for mass, more for color and expressiveness.

I think the Cine guys made a good call here and if when Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds comes out it is the same, I will not shed any tears personally. I have ensembles with the Sonic Implants winds and I virtually never use them.


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## Cinesamples (May 1, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples Announces CineWinds! Promo video added.*

Some more info:

The basic foundation for the winds is as follows: staccatos (1/8, 1/4, 1/2), Sustains with and without vibrato (morphing between the two), and legato in three dynamics, and trills. The foundation is that of the CineBrass methodology, but with the added articulations of trills, and controllable vibrato. We applied this method to all of the 11 standard woodwind instruments. Also, in addition to the standard Fullmix, Close, Room and Surround mics, we have a specialized "Spot" mic which grabs just the sound of the instrument without any of the room. Hugely effective with woodwinds (like if you're scoring a cartoon or something)

This time we were at Sony for a week, from 9am to 9pm each day. We had a great crew, and a very organized system (efficiency of time is critical for us when paying $10k per day just to use the room at Sony). The ethnic session was two days, just on it's own. We were pleased that William Lyons was able to join us from London for that session.

More to come...

What do you want to hear first?


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## chimuelo (May 1, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples Announces CineWinds! Promo video added.*

I have been waiting for this too.
More Kontakt NCW stuff with high quality I hope. If not RAM is cheap, my 4 x 4GB modules are only 100 USD as it is, but I don't buy the SPD RAM, just good old cheap ass Samsung.
Perhaps I will spend the extra 200 USD to get 32GBs of CL8 now instead of the 16GB.
Where would I be w/o this forum....

Great work. I hope you have a 4th of July sale as that's when I buy the Brass and Winds in a package.....


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## Cinesamples (May 1, 2012)

Hey Chimuelo,

Yeah, woodwinds for composers. Light memory, easy to use... load it up, play your part... have it sound better than anything out there... move on with life.

The Cinesamples philosophy.
People who enjoy sifting through huge patch lists will not like this library.


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## noxtenebrae17 (May 1, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples Announces CineWinds! Promo video added.*



CineSamples @ Tue May 01 said:


> What do you want to hear first?



The CORE instruments please!

Thanks!


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## Maestro77 (May 1, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples Announces CineWinds! Promo video added.*



noxtenebrae17 @ Tue May 01 said:


> CineSamples @ Tue May 01 said:
> 
> 
> > What do you want to hear first?
> ...


+1. a patch/art list would also be great to see.


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## Rob Elliott (May 1, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples Announces CineWinds! Promo video added.*



CineSamples @ Tue May 01 said:


> Some more info:
> 
> The basic foundation for the winds is as follows: staccatos (1/8, 1/4, 1/2), Sustains with and without vibrato (morphing between the two), and legato in three dynamics, and trills. The foundation is that of the CineBrass methodology, but with the added articulations of trills, and controllable vibrato. We applied this method to all of the 11 standard woodwind instruments. Also, in addition to the standard Fullmix, Close, Room and Surround mics, we have a specialized "Spot" mic which grabs just the sound of the instrument without any of the room. Hugely effective with woodwinds (like if you're scoring a cartoon or something)
> 
> ...




....exposed lyrical solo oboe - hoping it makes me shed a tear with excitement. :wink: Get this instrument right and I bet the rest is a piece o' cake - relatively speaking.


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## jamwerks (May 1, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples Announces CineWinds! Promo video added.*

Looking forward to hearing a short example showing off the different mics. The spot mic seems like a good idea.

Also hoping that your shortest staccatos are short enough for fast work.


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## Cinesamples (May 1, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples Announces CineWinds! Promo video added.*



Aoiichi @ Tue May 01 said:


> Casey Edwards @ Tue May 01 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm SO glad they didn't waste time with ensemble patches. Solo winds is definitely where the magic is at. If anything, I think we should be asking for multiple players for next gen. wind libraries.
> ...


Yeah you are both right. We covered ensemble woodwinds in Hollywoodwinds, so we felt that it would be redundant to do it again for CineWinds. 
Nothing can get better than a full section playing runs and figures. But CineWinds focuses on soloists, which doesn't exist in Hollywoodwinds.


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## JT (May 1, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples Announces CineWinds! Promo video added.*

Aren't saxophones wind instruments anymore???????


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## Graham Keitch (May 1, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples Announces CineWinds! Promo video added.*

...and if they did record Flute players 1, 2 and 3, why not combine them into a single flute ensemble instrument. As previously mentioned, three soloists are not the same as a 3 player ensemble - but it would be a step in the right direction.

Perhaps I've misunderstood HWW. I thought this was based on an entire woodwind ensemble. Does it actually contain separate ensembles for each section? 

Graham


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## Justus (May 1, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples Announces CineWinds! Promo video added.*



Graham Keitch @ Tue May 01 said:


> Perhaps I've misunderstood HWW. I thought this was based on an entire woodwind ensemble. Does it actually contain separate ensembles for each section?
> 
> Graham



No, it's a tutti library.


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## mikebarry (May 1, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples Announces CineWinds! Promo video added.*

I've found that HWW can really become whatever you wish it to be, it has somewhat put ensemble patches out of business because of its wonderful blend. If you truly want a3 clarinets I would play HWW tutti + clarinet solo and mix accordingly. 

Additionally HWW + Lass Sordinos is a huge lush charming sound (around middle C). Very dark and cinematic.


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## Casey Edwards (May 1, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples Announces CineWinds! Promo video added.*



CineSamples @ Tue May 01 said:


> More to come...
> 
> What do you want to hear first?



Are trills just minor and major 2nd trills or are they extended past these intervals?


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## Cinesamples (May 1, 2012)

No, we only grabbed trills.

You're talking about intervalic tremolos? I dunno, that's venturing into territory of the composer who has time to tweak.



CineWinds doesn't do all that fancy-pants stuff 

Other libraries do that quite well actually. Albeit in an anechoic chamber.


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## Casey Edwards (May 1, 2012)

CineSamples @ Tue May 01 said:


> No, we only grabbed trills.
> 
> You're talking about intervalic tremolos? I dunno, that's venturing into territory of the composer who has time to tweak.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the quick reply. It was just a curiosity of mine, especially since almost every time I open a JW score it seems like he's always throwing in these intervalic tremolos to color chord movement in other families, like in the beginning of the star wars fanfare.

Regardless, I can't wait to hear the sound of the winds at SONY.


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## Casey Edwards (May 1, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples Announces CineWinds! Promo video added.*



Aoiichi @ Tue May 01 said:


> Casey Edwards @ Tue May 01 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm SO glad they didn't waste time with ensemble patches. Solo winds is definitely where the magic is at. If anything, I think we should be asking for multiple players for next gen. wind libraries.
> ...



I can assure you I understand the theory of color combinations in unison across all families. Mockups just seem to be a different beast, and so far, MY experience with Westgate is that me playing LIVE separate passes on the same instrument for winds sounds better than ensemble patches. However, I'll have to dig them out and experiment again with them just for fun.

I'll tell you what I do love though, is CineBrass pre-recorded triads. At first, I'll admit, I thought this was a huge waste of time since ensemble or solo patches sound pretty good with chords already. However, upon playing them last night for the first time (I'm ashamed, I know...) I noticed how lovely they sounded and how you can hear the players tuning together. It's wonderful. It was one of those sample library moments where you're just like "WOW, that's cool!"


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## rgames (May 1, 2012)

CineSamples @ Tue May 01 said:


> People who enjoy sifting through huge patch lists will not like this library.


Then please make sure it's in a format that we can use with Cubase Expression Maps!

The trouble I've had with your previous libraries is in the "sifting through patch lists" category - I've never found a good way to use Expression Maps with your programming, so I'm forced to "sift through patch lists". So they're a bit cumbersome to use.

They sound great overall, they just lack the ease of use that some other libraries have.

I think your libraries are designed for people who "play in" the parts. For those of use who only "play in" basic ideas then work primarily in the MIDI editor, the approach actually is more cumbersome. 

Please give us options 

rgames


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## Cinesamples (May 1, 2012)

rgames @ Tue May 01 said:


> CineSamples @ Tue May 01 said:
> 
> 
> > People who enjoy sifting through huge patch lists will not like this library.
> ...


Hi rgames, have you tried using the keyswitch map preset with the cubase expression map? You can also customize the mapping of cinebrass in a multitude of ways. Drop us a line we can help. 
Not sure I understand your patch list comment? We made sure to keep the list pretty small?


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## LTSF (May 2, 2012)

CineSamples @ Mon Apr 30 said:


> CineWinds Core = Piccolo, Flute, Oboe, Clarinet, Bassoon
> CineWinds Pro = Alto Flute, Bass Flute, English Horn, Eb Clarinet, Bass Clarinet, Contrabassoon plus ALL the ethnic winds.
> 
> The video doesn't mention duduk and a few others which are in the library. I'll get you a complete list in a bit.
> ...


Are they going to be released simultaneously this time?


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## noiseboyuk (May 2, 2012)

rgames @ Wed May 02 said:


> CineSamples @ Tue May 01 said:
> 
> 
> > People who enjoy sifting through huge patch lists will not like this library.
> ...



Not sure why you'd have a problem Richard - just use Keyswitch mode in the patches, and you're away. You can also disable the staccato layering on high velocity if you don't want it. Cinesamples definitely give you options! Can't think of another developer who makes it as customisable, frankly.

There are a rogue couple of CB patches at the moment whose keyswitches don't behave properly, but I believe that'll be addressed in the next update.


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## rgames (May 2, 2012)

CineSamples @ Tue May 01 said:


> Hi rgames, have you tried using the keyswitch map preset with the cubase expression map? You can also customize the mapping of cinebrass in a multitude of ways. Drop us a line we can help.
> Not sure I understand your patch list comment? We made sure to keep the list pretty small?


Maybe I need to re-visit the setup - I tried to get it working with expression maps when I first got the library but didn't have much luck. Maybe I gave up too quickly...

Here's what I want to do: one track per section with articulations (staccato, legato, muted staccato, rips, etc) selected via expression map, so it reads like a regular score. I had difficulty with Cinebrass because I needed to use both MIDI channel and keyswitches to select articulations and I wasn't sure how to do that. My other libraries use one or the other, not both. So, in my template, Cinebrass requires several tracks per section vs. one track per section for the other libraries I use.

Again, though, maybe I just need to dig deeper into the programming to make it work.

For those of us using expression maps, the easiest thing to do is have a single patch with all the articulations selected by keyswitch or CC. i.e. don't have one patch for legato/staccato, one for rips, and one for stopped/flutter. Put them all in a single patch and select them via keyswitches or CC's.

There are probably some really smart Kontakt programming guys for whom that's a breeze, but I ain't one of them  A bit too complicated for my Kontakt chops...

rgames


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## Winslow (May 2, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples Announces CineWinds! Promo video added.*

Well, I used the instruments banks for that. I put the short art patch in bank#1, the legato patch in bank#2 and so on.
I can now use the expression maps in cubase to change the banks (=patches) via "program change" and the articulations via keyswitching.

But I bet there is a smarter way to achieve this...


Cheers,

Winslow


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## Rob Elliott (May 2, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples Announces CineWinds! Promo video added.*



Winslow @ Wed May 02 said:


> Well, I used the instruments banks for that. I put the short art patch in bank#1, the legato patch in bank#2 and so on.
> I can now use the expression maps in cubase to change the banks (=patches) via "program change" and the articulations via keyswitching.
> 
> But I bet there is a smarter way to achieve this...
> ...




Same - love Kontakt's instrument banks. I try to keep them consistent across sections (for me - C1= legato, C#1 = trems, etc.) I got started doing this with LASS - ironically, now with their new 2.0, it's not needed - but the concept works for all those playing catch up to LASS' programming.


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## rgames (May 2, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples Announces CineWinds! Promo video added.*



Winslow @ Wed May 02 said:


> I can now use the expression maps in cubase to change the banks (=patches) via "program change" and the articulations via keyswitching.



Right - but you can't do both the bank change and keyswitch with the expression map, can you? Are you saying you send *both* the bank change and keyswitch with the expression map? Not sure you can do that - hadn't thought to look. I always assumed it was one or the other because all my other libraries are set up using one or the other, not both. Such an approach is more complicated than my standard setup but if that's possible then it should work...

Been a while since I set up my expression maps. That's the great thing about them - once you set them up, you can forget about all that patch-selecting track-changing baloney.

rgames


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## Winslow (May 2, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples Announces CineWinds! Promo video added.*



rgames @ Wed May 02 said:


> Winslow @ Wed May 02 said:
> 
> 
> > I can now use the expression maps in cubase to change the banks (=patches) via "program change" and the articulations via keyswitching.
> ...



Yes! If you have your CB articulation patch in bank 1 and the legato patch in bank 2 for example then you have to set up your short 1/8 articulation in the expression map OUTPUT MAPPING with C0 for 1st Key Switch AND 1 for Program and you set up your legato articulation in the OUTPUT MAPPING with 2 for Program. You don't need a key switch for the legato since the patch only has one articulation. 

Winslow


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## Pedro Camacho (May 2, 2012)

I really WANT this one...


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## artinro (May 17, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples Announces CineWinds! Promo video added.*

Hey Mikes, any demos or walkthrough videos on the horizon? Only about a month left in spring and I'm guessing a sizable portion of the time left will be NI encoding the libraries 

Looking forward to hearing what you gentlemen have brewing!


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## artinro (Jun 23, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples Announces CineWinds! Promo video added.*

bump...

Would love to hear how the library is progressing gentlemen. Any update you'd consider sharing with us? Very much looking forward.


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## adg21 (Jun 24, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples Announces CineWinds! Promo video added.*

without sounding like a whiner I'd love to see the mod wheel playing nicely with Cinebrass Core and Pro, is the update expected soon?


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## Cinesamples (Jun 25, 2012)

CineWinds CORE is releasing THIS WEEK! We have never worked harder on a single library before, and we are so proud of it. Here is a walkthrough of some of the features available in CineWinds.


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## Kleven1111 (Jun 25, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples CineWinds: Walkthrough video added!*

Looks amazing. Love the mic mixing presets.
What's the controller abI've your keyboard?


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 25, 2012)

Sounds great, looks like a lot of fun to use. Looking forward to picking this up...


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## Farkle (Jun 25, 2012)

CineSamples @ Mon Jun 25 said:


> CineWinds CORE is releasing THIS WEEK! We have never worked harder on a single library before, and we are so proud of it. Here is a walkthrough of some of the features available in CineWinds.




I HAVE MY CREDIT CARD.

It wants to give you money, Mike and Mike.

NOW. 

Dammit, I'm trying to finish a fantasy cue with a flute solo... and I want the flute solo to be a Cinewinds solo!!

ARGH. 

Mike


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## Maestro77 (Jun 25, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples CineWinds: Walkthrough video added!*

That is the most intuitive orchestral VI interface I've seen. Looks great, sounds great and looks incredibly easy to use and navigate. Kudos Cinesamples (and Ryo)! How much??!


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## Ryan Scully (Jun 25, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples CineWinds: Walkthrough video added!*

WOW - That is all that I can say - eagerly awaiting the launch date :D :D


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## Andrew Aversa (Jun 25, 2012)

Wow, sounds fantastic guys! Can't imagine how big of an undertaking it was. Good luck with the release!


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## dannthr (Jun 25, 2012)

Killer Interface, guys.


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## noiseboyuk (Jun 25, 2012)

dannthr @ Tue Jun 26 said:


> Killer Interface, guys.



Indeed it is. Gotta love the torn off tape at the ends. More practically, like that there is now a reverb and send control - it'll be useful to set up the True Legato instruments differently from the articulations patches in this regard. Mikes - does the reverb use the built in Kontakt convo samples? If so, which do you find is the closest match to Sony?

Speaking of legato, is this defaulted to mono / on in the walkthrough on sustain samples?


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## gregjazz (Jun 26, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Mon Jun 25 said:


> Mikes - does the reverb use the built in Kontakt convo samples? If so, which do you find is the closest match to Sony?


It uses our own convolution impulses we captured from the Bricasti reverb unit. There are a bunch of different impulses included which you can choose between, too.



noiseboyuk @ Mon Jun 25 said:


> Speaking of legato, is this defaulted to mono / on in the walkthrough on sustain samples?


I'm not sure about the walkthough video, but by default the True Legato patches are in mono mode, and the Articulations patches in poly legato mode. Of course, in either case you can change the setting.

I think it's also important to mention that we rewrote the script from scratch, expanding on techniques from CineBrass, making it more powerful and efficient than before. You also have a lot more control over elements such as the legato speed, short articulation "tightness", round-robin reset, and much more, should you want to fine-tune any of those features. You're going to love it!


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## noiseboyuk (Jun 26, 2012)

gregjazz @ Tue Jun 26 said:


> I think it's also important to mention that we rewrote the script from scratch, expanding on techniques from CineBrass, making it more powerful and efficient than before. You also have a lot more control over elements such as the legato speed, short articulation "tightness", round-robin reset, and much more, should you want to fine-tune any of those features. You're going to love it!



Sounds fantastic, Greg! Did I see somewhere you guys saying you will port the interface / scripting to CineBrass Core and Pro in time as well?

Nice idea to sample the Bricasti, thanks for the info.


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## jamwerks (Jun 26, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples CineWinds: Walkthrough video added!*

Sounds excellent. Very impressed !

(would like to see exactly what articulations are included)

o-[][]-o


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## Waywyn (Jun 26, 2012)

awesome! sold!


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## jamwerks (Jun 26, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples CineWinds: Walkthrough video added!*

It would be nice to be able to have all articulations up in 1 patch (with keyswitches, ped, etc.)

Really like the interface and features BTW !!


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## leafInTheWind (Jun 26, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples CineWinds: Walkthrough video added!*

This sounds fantastic! Can't wait for pricing. Does it need the full version of Kontakt though?


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## Patrick_Gill (Jun 26, 2012)

Sounds excellent Mike / Guys. Congratulations on wrapping this up!. Looking forward to it, I can definitely hear that Sony Stage magic .

Patrick.


----------



## Consona (Jun 26, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples CineWinds: Walkthrough video added!*

Sounds great! (Strings with your "Cine" sound would be the best sounding string library, imo. Hope they will come some day. )

Just wondering, where will be ethnic instruments included? Is it gonna be a standalone library?


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## Simon Ravn (Jun 26, 2012)

Great sound! Oboe, bassoon and clarinet especially!


----------



## Robse (Jun 26, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples CineWinds: Walkthrough video added!*



Consona @ Tue Jun 26 said:


> Just wondering, where will be ethnic instruments included? Is it gonna be a standalone library?



If I remember right they will be included in CineWinds Pro (was mentioned in the first announcement video of CineWinds ...)


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## dhlkid (Jun 26, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples CineWinds: Walkthrough video added!*

I really wanna hear the difference with my VSL woodwind series.


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## handz (Jun 26, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples CineWinds: Walkthrough video added!*

AMAZING, Im so excited about this, CineBeass core is my most favorite brass lib without doubt, and I feel this will be most favorite WW lib soon... Hope the pricing will be +/- same range as CB core


andy.k VSL is emotional? Hmm... I would say opposite, cold and precise.


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## Resoded (Jun 26, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples CineWinds: Walkthrough video added!*

Choosing between Cinewinds and Berlin Woodwinds just got a lot more difficult.


----------



## paulcole (Jun 26, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples CineWinds: Walkthrough video added!*

What I like about the Cinesamples afaic is they are easy to use. I think Hollywinds and Cinesbrass 2 is great and simple to use and look forward to the brass updates.

I've listened through the winds video 3 times and am still trying to convince myself. They are sounding good and are probably easy to use and have the benefit of being recorded in a natural sounding space. I will most likely get them but will wait until I hear Hendriks' offering.


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## playz123 (Jun 26, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples CineWinds: Walkthrough video added!*



Resoded @ Tue Jun 26 said:


> Choosing between Cinewinds and Berlin Woodwinds just got a lot more difficult.



And let's not forget Hollywood Woodwinds from EW, which will also be released shortly. So lots to choose from. The negative for me about the EW release is the current state of Play, which is badly in need of a complete overhaul and faster loading times. So currently Cinewinds and Berlin Woodwinds will be the two I will consider first.


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## Danny_Owen (Jun 26, 2012)

Also Samplemodelling- that, in my opinion is the one to watch, though we may be waiting some time (years) for the full set to become available (and also of course Cinesamples have created a very fast and easy to use tool which is at opposite end to SM!).


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## salbinti (Jun 26, 2012)

CineSamples @ Mon Jun 25 said:


> CineWinds CORE is releasing THIS WEEK! We have never worked harder on a single library before, and we are so proud of it. Here is a walkthrough of some of the features available in CineWinds.




*Love *the sound, *hate *the interface. The tape is sort of cool, but the color scheme and font is terrible.

But wow what a sound!


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## rgames (Jun 26, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples CineWinds: Walkthrough video added!*

Sounds really good.

One request: the VSL WW are the kings right now and the one thing that will make me switch is the ability to crossfade dynamics and vibrato. The VSL WW often sound awful when doing that...

So please provide lots of demos of those capabilities 

Also, demos of fast runs are a must. These are WW, after all!

Saw a bit already and it sounds pretty good so far.

rgames


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## Chriss Ons (Jun 26, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples CineWinds: Walkthrough video added!*

The sound is stellar, like pretty much anything I've heard from Cinesamples so far - but the fast lines (in the video at around 3:25-3:42) really don't sound good at all, IMHO...


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## Vision (Jun 26, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Tue Jun 26 said:


> gregjazz @ Tue Jun 26 said:
> 
> 
> > I think it's also important to mention that we rewrote the script from scratch, expanding on techniques from CineBrass, making it more powerful and efficient than before. You also have a lot more control over elements such as the legato speed, short articulation "tightness", round-robin reset, and much more, should you want to fine-tune any of those features. You're going to love it!
> ...



+1 Would like to know if CineBrass will get revised scripting. 

Otherwise.. CineWinds sounds great. I'm really looking forward to it. Only real issues I have so far are some of the faster legato transitions. Perhaps needs to be speed adjustable?


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## synapse21 (Jun 26, 2012)

*Re: Cinesamples CineWinds: Walkthrough video added!*

I love the "Dennis Sands" preset...now the man's immortalized. And the Bright "John Williams" preset as well! I think the interface looks great overall.

This walkthrough demo sounds fantastic, and looks every bit as playable as CineBrass, which I just recently bought and LOVE.

Perfect timing for this library - I can only hope the Pro expansion comes out soon after.

What's next - with all of the string libraries out nowadays, will it be CinePerc next to overthrow TrueStrike's reign? 

- Rodney


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## Cinesamples (Jun 26, 2012)

Hi all, yes, CineBrass Core and CineBrass Pro will get updated scripting, completely written from the ground up, along with the snazzy interface. Legato speed knob, everything you see in CineWinds will be applied to CineBrass. All a free update.

We mentioned this at a Facebook post:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =1&theater


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## Cinesamples (Jun 26, 2012)

CineWinds CORE is NOW AVAILABLE! Exclusively at Cinesamples: http://cinesamples.com/products/cinewinds


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## caseyjames (Jun 26, 2012)

I am planning on buying this tomorrow.

One question, do the articulation patches contain a switchable legato mode like they do in the Cinebrass core? Is there any difference between the two legatos if they do?

I'm very excited to get my hands on it. With the exception of the runs, as others have noted, it sounds fabulous.


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## dannthr (Jun 26, 2012)

IMPULSIVE!

I just bought it...


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## antoniopandrade (Jun 26, 2012)

Casey, yes they do. It's in the "Settings" tab. Turning it off simply turns off the triggering of the legato transitions, it becomes a sustain patch. I think you guys should try out the different mic positions, and play around with the legato speed knob, and I'm confident you'll be able to pull off really fast lines... Check out Alex Temple's demo in the CineWinds product page!


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## EwigWanderer (Jun 26, 2012)

Great!

Are you going to update Hollywoodwinds in a near future? They are recorded in a different studio and I'm wondering is there a possibility to get IR from Sony studios inside a kontakt (to be used only with HWW) which could be used with the close mics in HWW? To blend the two libraries better together.


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## RiffWraith (Jun 26, 2012)

EwigWanderer @ Wed Jun 27 said:


> ...I'm wondering is there a possibility to get IR from Sony studios...



Not possible.


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## EwigWanderer (Jun 26, 2012)

RiffWraith @ 6.27.2012 said:


> EwigWanderer @ Wed Jun 27 said:
> 
> 
> > ...I'm wondering is there a possibility to get IR from Sony studios...
> ...



Ok. Would be great though to have it similar way as Bricasti IR's in Cinebrass


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## mikebarry (Jun 26, 2012)

Sony is very protective over the room so 0.0001 percent chance of us ever getting an impulse in there. We've tried our best, and I imagine so have other companies like Altiverb etc... 

I think the good thing about HWW is that it really blends very well. 

Regarding updates, - its the primary reason we hired Sam and Michael, we want to get our older libraries up to par with the quality of this one.

We are going to start the update process in July - slow and steady get them all done.


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## Blakus (Jun 26, 2012)

In my opinion, HWW blends really well with pretty much anything. It's been the glue that holds my winds together for a while now - fantastic sound. Congrats on the new release! Looking forward to updates of your other libraries too!


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## leafInTheWind (Jun 27, 2012)

Congrats on the release! I don't have Kontakt so I'll have to wait >.>


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## Resoded (Jun 27, 2012)

299 usd + taxes. Mikes, how long will this current price remain before you go to 399?


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## synapse21 (Jun 27, 2012)

I bought it as well - downloading now.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 27, 2012)

Congrats Mike and Mike.


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## handz (Jun 27, 2012)

Resoded @ Wed Jun 27 said:


> 299 usd + taxes. Mikes, how long will this current price remain before you go to 399?



I have a question - this is digital download and TAX is only added for non US residenta - well I do not need my real adress on the invoice at all - so If I simply add US as my country then on paypal I do nto have to pay tax from what I see. Is this a big problem for you guys?


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## james7275 (Jun 27, 2012)

Is the $299 just an introductory price, or will it go to $399 after a while?


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## Farkle (Jun 27, 2012)

Just bought it. 299$ for that sound and completion? Awesome.

FINALLY, I can say goodbye to my Kontakt 5 woodwinds in my template. They are now relegated to 3rd flute and 3rd oboe status... for blending ONLY. 

Mike


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## mark812 (Jun 27, 2012)

Really nice sound. Can't wait for updated CineBrass.

Cor Anglais should be in core library. It's kinda funny that 75€ VSL woods (that sound awesome) include Cor Anglais, Bass Clarinet and Contrabassoon.


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## ryanstrong (Jun 27, 2012)

http://images.cinesamples.com.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/CSW_ScDnc_Mstr2_01.mp3 (http://images.cinesamples.com.s3.amazon ... tr2_01.mp3)

The demo by Alexander Temple is great! Very Elfman-esque. Puts the winds in context. Congrats on the release everyone at CineSamples, it sounds beautiful.


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## noiseboyuk (Jun 27, 2012)

rystro @ Wed Jun 27 said:


> http://images.cinesamples.com.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/CSW_ScDnc_Mstr2_01.mp3
> 
> The demo by Alexander Temple is great! Very Elfman-esque. Puts the winds in context. Congrats on the release everyone at CineSamples, it sounds beautiful.



Yes, terrific. Only the strings let the side down a little, but that sort of writing is VERY hard for samples. Winds sounding ace.


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## techeverlasting (Jun 27, 2012)

As a some time Receptor user that fact that this library is for the full version of Kontakt is a huge plus, this saves me a lot of time dealing with activation issues.

Plus the price is great - SOLD!


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## mikebarry (Jun 27, 2012)

Alex's demo is great you are right! The kid knows what he is doing for sure. 

He told me that all the choir = voxos, all the brass = cinebrass.


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## re-peat (Jun 27, 2012)

Mike,

Congratulations with this release.
(Downloaded and installed the library just now.) 

A first quick question though: I haven't played all the instruments yet, only the flute as a matter of fact, but while going through its articulations, I stumbled upon these strange sounds: http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/Cinewinds_Flute.mp3 (http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be ... _Flute.mp3)
Is that normal, the high-frequency jittery noise in the release samples? (Rhetorical question, because obviously it isn't.) Is there something I need to adjust to make it go away, or do these release samples actually sound like this? In which case: could you please make a note of it and have a look at these samples by the time the library gets updated? As you can hear from the example, playing a tune with this flute in that high register, produces a sound which has almost as much problems as qualities.

Many thanks in advance!

_


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## reddognoyz (Jun 27, 2012)

I really like the customizable articulation mapping! I was able to come up with a scheme that works perfectly for me. 

It seems like there is a short articulation on the sustain patch at the highest velocities. It can sound like doubling if you trigger a high velocity and sustain the note. Not mentioned in the manual though. Similar to Cinebrass I believe. 

Is there any difference between the sustain in the articulations patch and the true legato patch, other than the true legato patches are set to mono, vs poly in the articulations patch?

The Legatos can sound really really good! I find the clarinet legatos a little loud sometimes, depending on how you are playing. Sometimes they are sublime, especially on arpeggiated lines. On exposed chromatic lines I think they stick out a little I miss the ability to turn them down.


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## antoniopandrade (Jun 27, 2012)

Stuart, as you've noticed, the articulations' patch legato has the layered 1/4 short articulation. The true legato patch does not have this layered articulation. Other than that and the fact that its set to mono rather than poly legato mode, they are the same.


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## SPOTS (Jun 27, 2012)

I too would like to know if the current price is a time limited offer and when it will end. Also when will the next volume be available, and what will be the introductory price of the bundle?

Thanks.


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## synapse21 (Jun 27, 2012)

My bet is that the pricing will mirror CineBrass + CineBrass Pro once they're both out.

- Rodney


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## Biggator1999 (Jun 27, 2012)

So let me hear from the people who have downloaded the library already. I've got my finger on the trigger here and it won't take much to push me over the edge. How is it?


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## RiffWraith (Jun 27, 2012)

Biggator1999 @ Thu Jun 28 said:


> How is it?



Better sounding samples will not be had.

I have not yet played with EW's offering, nor have I the ability to compare this to OrchT's lib. I can possibly seeing one or maybe both of those libs sounding _as good_, but not better. It has a very natural, organic, unadultered/unprocessed sound. I am sure that there was some processing, but whatever was done did not make the samples sound processed. I can see this easily blending with almost anything else.

I have only extensively played with the flute and picc, but so far, no complaints about the legato - works as well as can be expected. Not crazy about the interface, but that's my own personal taste - and once I set everything in my template, how often am I going to look at the interface?

Now, if I can only figure out how to access the different artics.... :roll:


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## reddognoyz (Jun 27, 2012)

+1 on the sound.

I need to use keyswitches on the articulation patches, I'm not in control of my velocity to consistently trigger the patch I want. 

I set it up so the sustain patch is the default. the shortest short is on pedal and the rest of the articulations are temp KS's. I set the sustain dynamics to cc1 and the short dynamics to velocity. Very happy with this so far.


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## reddognoyz (Jun 27, 2012)

looks like this


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## devastat (Jun 27, 2012)

Biggator1999 @ Wed Jun 27 said:


> How is it?



Really great. Beautiful sound and great programming


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## synapse21 (Jun 27, 2012)

I also love knowing that these libraries are going to sound even better as the new script engineers jump on them for future updates.


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## caseyjames (Jun 27, 2012)

I am 1.5gb into disk 2 of the download. I am very excited to play with the new toys.

Will the pro version feature additional articulations such as:

Flutter tongue
Multiphonics
Overblows


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## Casey Edwards (Jun 27, 2012)

Those Bassoon shorts sound like something straight out of a live recording... :drool: I can hear so much character in the recordings.


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## adg21 (Jun 28, 2012)

Casey Edwards @ Thu Jun 28 said:


> Those Bassoon shorts sound like something straight out of a live recording...


Exactly what I thought, the best bit of the walkthrough for me...


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## Patrick de Caumette (Jun 28, 2012)

+1

Just bought this.
Looking forward to try it.

Installation process blows. :twisted: 
Continuata is a much more elegant solution...


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## Cinesamples (Jun 28, 2012)

Casey Edwards @ Wed Jun 27 said:


> Those Bassoon shorts sound like something straight out of a live recording... :drool: I can hear so much character in the recordings.



The bassoonist is Martin Kuuskman. Great guy, world class musician:
http://martinkuuskmann.com/


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## RiffWraith (Jun 28, 2012)

Patrick de Caumette @ Thu Jun 28 said:


> Installation process blows. :twisted:



How so? You d/l the .rar files, unrar them, and you are good to go. The only thing Continuata does is unrar the files for you.


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## dannegovan (Jun 28, 2012)

re-peat @ Wed Jun 27 said:


> Mike,
> 
> Is that normal, the high-frequency jittery noise in the release samples? (Rhetorical question, because obviously it isn't.) Is there something I need to adjust to make it go away, or do these release samples actually sound like this?
> _



That's just how she played it - those are natural, airy high frequencies coming from the instrument. I think you'll be surprised how much life things like this will give to your tracks.

The only way to reduce would be with maybe a lowpass or just using farther mics?


----------



## reddognoyz (Jun 28, 2012)

I think they sound pretty natural. I'm not sure I would be writing pp lines up there for pic anyway


----------



## re-peat (Jun 28, 2012)

dannegovan @ Thu Jun 28 said:


> That's just how she played it - those are natural, airy high frequencies coming from the instrument.


Dear me, we have another connaisseur on board, it seems. (Deep, bored sigh.) 
Look, I happen to know what a flute is supposed to sound like, and that high-frequency noise has got nothing to do with a flute whatsoever. "She" can play a flute in the most outlandish, acrobatic way a human being can manage, she'll never be able to produce a flutesound as damaged as the one in my examples. That noise, that's some or other digital jittery aliasing artefact, that's what that is.

(By the way, by calling the fluteplayer a "she", you seem to have been in on the sessions for CineWinds. Why a "she" and not a "he"? You are in one way or another connected to this release, aren't you? You sneakily camouflaged person.)

Anyway, here's *another example*. And there is something else, apart from the ugly noises: in this example every single note was entered with exactly the same length and exactly the same CC-values (I quantized all those parameters to be identical for every note). Upon playback however, some notes last noticeably longer than others. (You *can* hear that, I hope, Dannegovan?) The Bb6, for instance, continues well over the following note, whereas notes like Ab6 or B4 have a much, much shorter release tail. Is that also due to "the way she played"? Please, tell us. You seem to know.

And how about *this oboe*? Those clicking noises during the releases, also normal and natural? Another "she" that's capable of very strange sounds?

Yeah, I know, I'm a bit irritated. It's just that I hate these little flaws in a library which is presented with as much pretentious fanfare as CineWinds is (_“a next-generation orchestral woodwinds library recorded in the legendary SONY Pictures Scoring Stage in Los Angeles, and mixed by master engineer Dennis Sands"_). To my ears, there is nothing 'next-generation' about CineWinds whatsoever. It’s just another average, decent-sounding and quite useful samplelibrary. I don’t dislike it, but I’m certainly not excited about it either.



dannegovan @ Thu Jun 28 said:


> I think you'll be surprised how much life things like this will give to your tracks.


I doubt it. These sounds come nowhere near my tracks.



dannegovan @ Thu Jun 28 said:


> The only way to reduce would be with maybe a lowpass or just using farther mics?


So, let me get this straight: you want me to put a lowpass filter on the "legendary" sound of the Sony Soundstage? And muffle the mastery of Mr. Sands as well, while I'm at it?? Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.

I'm going to effortlessly ignore you for the rest of my life, Dannegovan. Unless I need to be reminded of how stupid people can be.

----

Reddognoyz,

That's a flute, not a piccolo. Jeezes. What is this? Amateur hour? A gathering of the deaf? Or what? No wonder you guys think it all sounds 'natural', if you don't even hear the difference between a flute and a piccolo. 

_


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## MaestroRage (Jun 28, 2012)

lol, sweet jesus Peat. And I thought -I- had fire and brimstone issues.

Dannagoven assumed it was a she, because if you actually watched the first video you will find a woman playing the flute. In this sense we are ALL part of the sessions.

So while I can agree those don't sound the greatest you should probably keep the flames of rage at bay before throwing tin foil hat worthy accusations around.


----------



## mikebarry (Jun 28, 2012)

wow bro you have quite the temper and opinions, I am not just talking this thread but in general - it doesn't come across well over the internets. 

Dan has been our employee for almost 3 years, maybe he should have made that clear - he was there for the session. 
That was the actual sound she made - I asked her about it and she said it was natural for high notes at ppp, it is no artifact. 

Nonetheless release samples are an easy fix with some fades. I will stand behind the quality of the library though - it is an excellent product. What you are hearing is a combination of off the reed/fingers up on the cut offs. 100% natural - we had one of the finest, and most renowned oboe players in the United States. You don't hear these things in an orchestral context as much - but they exist no matter what you think. There is no other way to make an oboe stop making noise besides stop blowing air through it. 

Try the flute in the dynamics above ppp in the overblown range and report back. I wish we could communicate better like sirs, if you have a problem please report it to me at [email protected] - Ill make sure it gets to the programmer. 

Sony is a huge room - it makes noise on its own, 9/10 composers choose it in LA because of its sound.


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## KMuzzey (Jun 28, 2012)

I'm always surprised -- then am surprised that I'm surprised by this -- that every thread about a new library will eventually contain a post that just oozes contempt and disgust for the library. And not just contempt but _anger._ Like, road-rage anger. Anger with a side of arrogance, peppered with indignance. Anger that's so angry that I imagine it keeps that person up all night as they stew over what they're going to say tomorrow on the forums to make their attacks on ____ sample library even more blistering. 

It used to irk me but now it kinda makes me laugh. It takes an awful lot of time and energy to lace one's words with so much snark and venom, and I can't help but think that some people might have more success if they spent less time posting in forums and more time actually making music, so that the world can better know their genius.

o-[][]-o 

CineWinds sounds great in the walkthroughs. I'll be buying it this weekend.

Kerry


----------



## Patrick de Caumette (Jun 28, 2012)

RiffWraith @ Thu Jun 28 said:


> Patrick de Caumette @ Thu Jun 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Installation process blows. :twisted:
> ...



Main reason is:

i do not have an email program on my music computer. CineSamples sent me a list of links for CineWinds. Since i can't open that list from my music computer, i had to download each file from my office computer, then transfer them using a flash drive.
The Continuata solution saves me valuable time and is more elegant...


----------



## Casey Edwards (Jun 28, 2012)

Maybe it's just part of my more academic like background for music, but I studied a lot of instrument characteristics across as many dynamic ranges as I could. This is pretty standard noise for a piccolo to make in that dynamic range in that register. The rest of the noise is Sony's hall reverberating it. It's called character in the sound. It's not intrusive at all. 

Like I said about the Bassoons in the demo video, this library seems to have a lot player presence behind it, and I like that a lot! I wish I had the money to grab it because I would in a heartbeat!


----------



## Biggator1999 (Jun 28, 2012)

I had a quick question about instrument placement for this library. Were these instruments recorded on the stage where they would normally be or is there a need to place them by panning? Thanks. I've been staring at the green button all day now trying to resist pulling the trigger. I guess I'm going to get it anyway and I might as well get it sooner rather than later. HAHA


----------



## RiffWraith (Jun 28, 2012)

Casey Edwards @ Fri Jun 29 said:


> This is pretty standard noise for a piccolo to make...



Oh no - you didn't just say that, did you????? :lol:



Biggator1999 @ Fri Jun 29 said:


> I've been staring at the green button all day now trying to resist pulling the trigger. I guess I'm going to get it anyway and I might as well get it sooner rather than later. HAHA



Do it - if you need woods, or if you enjoy using woods to fill out your orchestration - you won't regret this.


----------



## mikebarry (Jun 28, 2012)

All of our libraries in SONY are recorded in place; the players are sitting in the exact chair that Dennis would have them for DE or TN or AS. There is no panning needed, we don't play with the sound - there is no EQ, no compression, no reverb, this is precisely the 100% no change, no tweaked sound Dennis uses for his biggest clients. It is all down to a science, things are tape measured and such. 

We were one of the first/possibly the first to use Continuata but we've been pretty happy with Fastsprings guaranteed download and $6.00 backup disk. I am sorry if you had trouble P.


----------



## RiffWraith (Jun 28, 2012)

Patrick de Caumette @ Fri Jun 29 said:


> RiffWraith @ Thu Jun 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Patrick de Caumette @ Thu Jun 28 said:
> ...



Gotcha 

FYI 1 - There is a DVD option for just a few dollars more. Obviously, it would take longer to get to be able to use the lib, but maybe that is easier for you?

FYI 2 - Continuata is cool, no doubt. But it is NOT inexpensive.

Cheers.


----------



## Biggator1999 (Jun 28, 2012)

Alright, well I guess I sorta have to buy it now. HAHA I mean I have almost every other library you guys put out. I went to school with Antonio BTW Mike. He's a good guy and a talented one to boot. I'm sure he's putting in the hard work I saw him put in at school for you guys.


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## Biggator1999 (Jun 28, 2012)

Trigger has been pulled. I'm now downloading.


----------



## RiffWraith (Jun 28, 2012)

Biggator1999 @ Fri Jun 29 said:


> Trigger has been pulled. I'm now downloading.



Noooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!! I almost forgot to tell you......................





































:lol:


----------



## Biggator1999 (Jun 28, 2012)

HAHA To late now Riff.


----------



## Casey Edwards (Jun 28, 2012)

Watch out for the piccolo, it sounds like someones playing it... tough crowd.... 

I have a bad sense of humor. o-[][]-o


----------



## Christian F. Perucchi (Jun 28, 2012)

Man this library sounds great! there is nothing wrong with the samples! they are breathing!
i will wait till berlin WW and EW make their move, but again! your work is amazing as always! glad to see people developing such products with care and love for music.
Sorry i got carried away


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## Christian F. Perucchi (Jun 28, 2012)

Casey Edwards @ Fri Jun 29 said:


> Watch out for the piccolo, it sounds like someones playing it... tough crowd....
> 
> I have a bad sense of humor. o-[][]-o


LOL o/~ ~o) :lol:


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## Patrick de Caumette (Jun 28, 2012)

mikebarry @ Thu Jun 28 said:


> We were one of the first/possibly the first to use Continuata but we've been pretty happy with Fastsprings guaranteed download and $6.00 backup disk. I am sorry if you had trouble P.



No worry Mike, in the big picture this is a small annoyance....

Now, when the hell is NI offering their Summer sale on the Komplete 8 upgrade?
I don't have K5 yet, and i'd hate to buy it now, even at 50% off, when the K8 upgrade will take care of that anyway.
For some reason, i thought the NI summer sale went on in June last year...? :evil:


----------



## re-peat (Jun 28, 2012)

mikebarry @ Fri Jun 29 said:


> wow bro you have quite the temper and opinions, I am not just talking this thread but in general - it doesn't come across well over the internets.
> 
> Dan has been our employee for almost 3 years, maybe he should have made that clear - he was there for the session.
> That was the actual sound she made - I asked her about it and she said it was natural for high notes at ppp, it is no artifact.
> ...



Sorry, Mike, not with you. Not at all. And I'm not interested in, and even less impressed by what L.A. chooses either. And if Sony makes such an unpleasant and unmusical noise as I hear in these samples (which, according to you, is all natural), I would strongly suggest you seek out a new venue for your next project.

The noise in that flute is anything but 100% natural. It's 100% ugly digital debris, no more, no less. I've been doing this for too long not to know the difference between a flute sound and some weird digital artefacts. It doesn't ruin the entire library, I never said it did, but it certainly ruins the affected notes.

The exact same thing happened with the Blue, by the way: when I mentioned the distortion in some of the notes, your first response was also one of complete denial and indignation, remember? You claimed it was the natural, authentic sound of tape, I said it was common, ugly distortion. You kept denying for a few days and then, surprise surprise, you suddenly made a virtuoso U-turn and announced an update which would remove (or at least, reduce) the distortion. In other words: you could no longer ignore that there was indeed too much damage in some of the notes, like I always said there was.
Same thing here. Anyone who knows what a flute sounds like (in whichever venue it is played and recorded), immediately hears that there's something seriously wrong with the notes I've demonstrated. Seriously wrong. I suspect: very well played, very well recorded, but very poorly processed and edited. That's what it sounds like to me. And next week, or when it's time to start work on the first update, you will agree. Sure of it.

The oboe is less problematic, but equally disappointing. If that strange clicking noise in the background is so natural, as you insist it is, how come I've never heard it in any other sample library? I've heard key-clicks before, sure, and I like 'em. I even add key-clicks to sample libraries which don't have them. (I have EXS-patches with nothing but key-clicks for each of the woodwind instruments, which combine very nicely with the Vienna and/or Westgate instruments.)
But what can be heard in that high CineWinds oboe is not a key-click. Well, it may have been one (it sounds more like the ghost of key-click to me), but it doesn't behave like one.
First of all, it's a bit strange to only hear key-clicks (or what you claim are key-clicks) during the release tails, I find. No? And how come that click sounds exactly the same even if different notes trigger it? Also something 'natural' I'm not aware of? And finally, how come it can only be heard in the top register of the instrument and nowhere else? I'd like to see you talk your way out of this one.

I wasn't born yesterday, Mike. I happen to know my flutes and my oboes, and what I hear in the CineWinds instruments is wrong. Not library-ruining wrong, like I already said, but wrong nonetheless. Certainly, and at the very least: wrong enough to be seriously considered for improvement.

But let's draw a line under this. Wasted enough time on it already.
CineWinds is a good library. But when people point out imperfections (and illustrate them with telling examples, like I did), you should perhaps lend an attentive ear, rather than flatly denying any possibility that there might be some truth in the remarks. After all, I don't come out with these things to annoy you, I only do it in the hope that the next version of CineWinds will be better than the current one. Instead of acting all indignified and offended, a hint of gratitude wouldn't be out of place. If the next version of CineWinds doesn't have the artefacts anymore (just like the next version of Blue will, hopefully, have less distortion than the current one), it'll be thanks to annoying, rude bastards like me, and not thanks to all the spineless clowns who keep shouting how great everything sounds.

And you certainly shouldn't side with weird people who suggest to use lowpass filters on that "legendary sound, captured by a master engineer", which is, I believe, one of the library's assets that you seem to be particularly proud of. I mean, someone suggests to ruin the very soul of a CineSamples library _and you agree??_
I started out quite friendly I thought, in my first post. Even faked a certain degree of ignorance to allow you to respond with friendly and helpful reply. It was only after that completely preposterous and insultingly stupid reply of Dan — re-reading it now still makes me cringe — that I may have gotten a bit too much in overdrive.

_


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## mikebarry (Jun 28, 2012)

Piet if I didn't have better things to do with my time - I would dig up the original pro tools sessions and show you. I am a winds player myself - and a sample developer - I sat through all the sessions - I picked the players - would you consider the possibility I have a better knowledge of the product then you? 

You didn't really start off very friendly, I don't think I've ever read a positive post that you've ever written - there is just no reason to be so blatantly uncivil. I sincerely suggest that you start your own company because you clearly have the confidence and knowledge to do so. 

If you seek a refund email me and I will set up the legal documents. But expect me to defend my employees when you start belittling them over the sex of a player.

And in general we just spent a lot of money hiring possibly the best programming team in the world and we are committed to updates. We are commited to our clients - I will be happy to fix your issue but if you disagree about the space of Sony and the acoustics of that I can't help you.

If you want to listen to a noisy soundtrack, put on Memoirs of a Geisha - tell me its not noisy AND marvelous.


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## rgames (Jun 28, 2012)

re-peat @ Thu Jun 28 said:


> (which, according to you, is all natural)


It is natural. I'm a clarinetist and have spent most of my life sitting near flute players. I even married a flute player. I've heard a lot of flute. It's a natural release sound for high notes.

It is true, however, that most players would try to minimize the effect. So your ears might not be accustomed to hearing it if you've heard only sanitized recordings.

It's one of those ironies of sample libraries: one way to add realism is to add the pieces that don't quite match the ideal sound.

rgames


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## Christian F. Perucchi (Jun 28, 2012)

+ 1


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## re-peat (Jun 28, 2012)

mikebarry @ Fri Jun 29 said:


> (...) when you start belittling them over the sex of a player.


Excuse me??????????????????? When did I ever do that?

And no, I don't seek a refund. What's gotten into you? I simply pointed out two, what I consider unwelcome imperfections in an otherwise fine and satisfying library. I do that with other libraries as well and usually, developers respond with a pleasant degree of appreciation. Not you apparently, I know that now. A lesson learned. No problem. 

_


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## Cinesamples (Jun 28, 2012)

Bring on the feedback folks. We need to hear it. Let's hear all the things we want in an update. Can we be civil about it though? Let's try and keep VI control positive.


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## mikebarry (Jun 28, 2012)

Piet I think it was your tone to Dan that was warranting my response - but lets move on as gentlemen and I will bring up your complaint to our team at our meeting on this next Tuesday - the flute thing is fixable simply by a crossfade - the oboe thing isn't going to go away.


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## Cinesamples (Jun 28, 2012)

Just so everyone is clear "dannegovan" is our employee who co-produced the post production on this library. He is also the friendly voice to all the support emails we receive. 
Don't mess with him.


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## RiffWraith (Jun 28, 2012)

CineSamples @ Fri Jun 29 said:


> Just so everyone is clear "dannegovan" is our employee who co-produced the post production on this library. He is also the friendly voice to all the support emails we receive.
> Don't mess with him.



Been talking to Dan via email about a few things. Very nice to deal with.

Might I humbly recommend that he signify that he works for CS via his sig or avatar? 

Cheers.


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## jleckie (Jun 28, 2012)

<<Look, I happen to know what a flute is supposed to sound like, >>

Realllllyyy... And that would be...? (care to provide any examples)


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## dedersen (Jun 28, 2012)

Congrats, Mikes, on what looks and sounds like a brilliant new woodwinds library! Probably like a lot of others, I am trying to decide which wagon to jump on in the woodwinds battle. If I decide to go the CineWinds way I will most definitely need the PRO package as well, so would you be willing to let us know when this will be coming? And, more importantly, at which price? It's really the price of CORE+PRO that is most relevant to me.


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## Cinesamples (Jun 28, 2012)

Hi dedersen: http://Cinesamples.com/products/cinewinds

That should answer your question.


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## LeighJC (Jun 29, 2012)

Hey Guys, A big thank you and congrats to the two Mikes and all at Cinesamples for the new release another top product! 

I have a quick question for anyone one here , i have been using all patches in Cinebrass (Cinewinds as of tomorrow) and use all the articulation patches in my current template with the legato function on, is there any benefit for using the True Legato patches as well as the articulation patches? is there something i'm missing here? 

Thanks guys 

Leigh


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## Simon Ravn (Jun 29, 2012)

OK OK... Heated discussion here

I haven't yet bought CineWinds (but I will, soon), but I just listened to re-peat's examples. I can understand that he has a problem with some of this.

Regarding the flute, I don't believe those noises are digital - they certainly come from the flute. So what is this - is this the close mic? What about the room + surround mics, do they pick up any (much) of this at all?

Regarding the oboe, those release samples are definitely a problem. As I see it, sample developers today get so carried away with being able to include legato intervals and release samples, that they often make them way too loud. And this seems to be the case here. Down 12db and I think it will sound a lot more natural. Release samples should not be heard - they should just be sensed. And especially with legato playing, where a release sample is (unnaturally) played after each note, it will get very ugly if they are too loud.

And I don't care if "this was how they were recorded, we didn't change anything!" - the bottom line boils down to: How does it sound when you play it, regardless of how it was recorded. So I think in this case for example, release samples on the oboe need to be turned down considerably in volume to make the instrument more playable and NATURAL sounding.

It still baffles me though, that so many of these - to me - very obvious flaws seem to make it through to many 1st releases of sample libraries today. Perhaps it's a case of not beeing able to see the forest for the trees.

I am sure Mike and co. will sort this out and I am sure that CineWinds is a great library that I will find a lot of good use for - regardless of the current kinks.


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## FriFlo (Jun 29, 2012)

I must say for my part I am really thankful for people like Piet, to point out faults like that. It doesn't have to be with so much temper, of course. But I am pretty irritated, whe people keep dismissing those posts like the complaints of some whiner ... 
For developers it has become a common way of dismissing strange noises in their libraries by saying it was all natural. Some noises may be even that, but where ever these "natural noises" occure, there must be multiple RR - even on legato! Otherwise, some notes won't be usable in repetitive situations like an ostinato. I hate having a great sounding libraries, which let me regret choosing certain notes ...


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## dedersen (Jun 29, 2012)

CineSamples @ Fri Jun 29 said:


> Hi dedersen: http://Cinesamples.com/products/cinewinds
> 
> That should answer your question.


Ah, yes, it certainly does. Should have checked it myself.


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## Erik (Jun 29, 2012)

Hi,
A very small remake of Piet's high flute notes with Westgate flute and from the second half VSL Flute 1 (release on).
Just to see if this _problem_ is persistent and consequently_ natural_, or not.....

[mp3]http://www.musesamples.com/blog2/MP3/Flutex2.mp3[/mp3]

No further editing, except for some slight reverb, 
at your service,
Erik


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## jamwerks (Jun 29, 2012)

My 2 cents on this flute and oboe question.

IMO there is definitely no digital artifacts in Piets Fl. examples. Those are natural overtones. But there are many way to produce & stop the sound when playing a Flute. If you want a soft attack and release at those pitches, that doesn't sound strange to me.

Piets' Oboe example also sounds correct to me (the release samples), but they could be a tad softer.


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## jamwerks (Jun 29, 2012)

Erik @ Fri Jun 29 said:


> Hi,
> A very small remake of Piet's high flute notes with Westgate flute and from the second half VSL Flute 1 (release on).



These seem to have more attack, and the releases might have been edited.


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## Erik (Jun 29, 2012)

And why not, also the _oboe-look-alike_ based on Piet's example here.
[mp3]http://www.musesamples.com/blog2/MP3/Oboehigh.mp3[/mp3]

Only Westgate this time: VSL doesn't offer the upper region (missing a third here).


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## sherief83 (Jun 29, 2012)

I'd like to hear a music demo that only uses woodwinds if possible...or you guys are more than welcome to send me the library so I can do that...joking joking:D


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## Mossad (Jun 29, 2012)

Simon Ravn @ Thu Jun 28 said:


> OK OK... Heated discussion here
> 
> I haven't yet bought CineWinds (but I will, soon), but I just listened to re-peat's examples. I can understand that he has a problem with some of this.
> 
> ...



This pretty much sums it up in my opinion...

I'd also be curious what mic position this is for the flute example. I personally use a "mixed" mic position only (when it's available) for a library and generally turn down close mics a lot. So if the close mics are the issue, this wouldn't really affect me personally.

The oboe I'm still trying to figure out and I need to listen to it more. I spent a lot of time in a woodwind section early in my music career with some pretty amazing players and I just don't remember things like this.

But Simon really hit the nail on the head when he says:

"And I don't care if "this was how they were recorded, we didn't change anything!" - the bottom line boils down to: How does it sound when you play it, regardless of how it was recorded. So I think in this case for example, release samples on the oboe need to be turned down considerably in volume to make the instrument more playable and NATURAL sounding."

And this holds true for any instrument/section. This debate is reminiscent of the issue I brought up with the release samples in Cinematic Strings 2 which I found way too loud and completely unrealistic. There were people that agreed with me and people that didn't. That's fine - people like different things. But at the end of the day, Alex allowed the user to turn of the release samples and it barely affected the overall sound while cutting out what I felt was extremely annoying background noise that limited the libraries usefulness. Problem solved. I'm not sure if CineWinds has that ability as I don't own it yet.

I guess this is just the wall we hit when trying to sample something that really is impossible to replicate artificially which is all the nuances of playing a musical instrument. All those sounds people are hearing may very well be natural and no problem in a real orchestral setting, but it just doesn't translate well when trying to make digital music with. 

Does this mean sample developers should just give up? Absolutely not. I just think some compromises need to be made in certain situations.


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## jamwerks (Jun 29, 2012)

re-peat @ Fri Jun 29 said:


> Anyway, here's *another example*.



Sounds like the close mic only. What would that same line sound like with just the mains?


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## Cinesamples (Jun 29, 2012)

Yeah, that's natural on those high notes when you play at pianissimo on Flute. Take a listen to the louder dynamics and see if there are present up there.

A word of note on "Close" mics. Dennis rarely if ever will use the Close mics alone. The purpose of the close mics is to offer a bit of color and clarity to the sound captured by the tree.
The best situation is to load up the Room, and add a touch of Close to taste. If in your piece the woodwinds are just to sit in a full orchestra, use less Close... but if you have a featured solo, pull the Close mic up (keeping the Room on).

Then of course, there is the "Spot" with is meant to be used alone. This is to simulate that anechoic sound used in some other libraries... very important to have this flexibility... especially for you tweak heads who want put the Spot through your own IR reverbs.


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## JT (Jun 29, 2012)

Is the $299 an introductory price?If so, when will it end?


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## Biggator1999 (Jun 29, 2012)

Hey guys. I've come across a problem with the gui and I was wondering what I should do and if anyone else has come across this. I'm adding the patches to my template and it looks like all the menu page are all showing at the same time. So it's the pages are laid on top of one another. I'm opening them in Kontakt 5 inside of VEP 5 and my DAW is Cubase 6.5. The patches look and work fine in standalone mode. If anyone has an idea let me know. Thanks.


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## Cinesamples (Jun 29, 2012)

Hi JT, and everyone asking about the pricing.

No hard date has been set for price increase. However, we will be sure to give everyone ample notice when/if the price goes up.

We will announce on VI, Facebook, newsletter.. all the usual places.


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## inmusi (Jun 29, 2012)

I currently am running Kontakt 4.2.3.4914.

Will Cinewinds run on this version or do I have to update?


thanks


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## Cinesamples (Jun 29, 2012)

Hi Biggator,

This is a known issue with VEPro and effects all libraries with these modern interfaces. Connecting VEPRO to your sequencer resolves the issue.

However, we have created a workaround internally here that circumvents the VE PRO bug. The downside is that the patches load much slower.
Email us: [email protected] and we can get you this.

But we recommend that you simply connect VE Pro prior to loading.


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## antoniopandrade (Jun 29, 2012)

Immusi, you will have to update to Kontakt 4.2.4 to be able to use CineWinds.


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## Dominik Raab (Jun 29, 2012)

CineSamples @ Thu 28 Jun said:


> Just so everyone is clear "dannegovan" is our employee who co-produced the post production on this library. He is also the friendly voice to all the support emails we receive.
> Don't mess with him.



I've never had the honour of communicating with either of the Mikes, unfortunately - but I CAN tell Dan's a great guy.
Dan, if you read this: You've got two e-mails about our latest ReleaseTime review cooperation. At least I hope they went through.

Sorry for off-topic :D


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## Simon Ravn (Jun 30, 2012)

Just finished installing the library.

One thing - why isn't CineWinds a Kontakt Library like CineBrass is? I find Libraries more convenient than having to browse through regular files 8)

Have just started playing around and I like it. Fits perfectly in the philosophy of CB I think 

However, I don't think you have listened to peoples issues with the dynamics, as the dynamic range is still too small and narrow... You seem to have sampled three layers of dynamics, and the lowest is probably around mp, not real p, loudest is not really ff either - at least on the flute, oboe and piccolo. The dynamics of the clarinet and bassoon sounds perfectly fine to me - and I really dig the clarinet!

I like the new interface btw - nice to have those fast presets to try out and tweak from. Also the vibrato control works really nice.

The legato sound level can't be changed like in CineBrass or did I miss something...?

*However*, I am having problems with stuck notes when playing legato. This has happened both with the flute and the oboe, and it happens quite frequently actually. There must be some problems with the scripting... ? I am using Logic and this is straight into Logic, no Vienna Ensemble or anything.


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## gregjazz (Jun 30, 2012)

Simon Ravn @ Sat Jun 30 said:


> *However*, I am having problems with stuck notes when playing legato. This has happened both with the flute and the oboe, and it happens quite frequently actually. There must be some problems with the scripting... ? I am using Logic and this is straight into Logic, no Vienna Ensemble or anything.


Is there any chance you can send us a MIDI file from passages where notes get stuck? I've never run into any stuck notes, so I want to see if the problem is reproducible. You might also try it in Kontakt standalone to see if you get the same results.


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## flashman (Jun 30, 2012)

It might be that NI take a big chunk of money for encoding the library and given how unhelpful they were when CS had a major piracy issue recently they've decided to go down the 8dio route of personalising each copy of the library which seems to be a more effective form of copy protection anyway.


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## Ryan Scully (Jun 30, 2012)

Lovin the library so far! 

I only have one real question at the moment - I put in a support ticket but figured someone on hear might have a quick answer:

Is there anyway to move up the double/triple tonguing keyswitches by lets say, an octave?


Unfortunately I only have a 61 key controller and I lose some range for this very cool effect. 



Ryan :D


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## caseyjames (Jun 30, 2012)

I'm still getting used to the library but there are a number of aspects that could really use improving.

When the mic's are set to the Best Legato preset, the jump between the sound of the articulations and the legato sustain is really jarring. The clarinet in particular sounds like two different instruments in two spaces. The issue is that the release sound doesn't exist in the legato patches so the real release sounds fake in comparison. Have you tried making resonant drones out of the release samples, or something similar that can be subtly placed under the legato transitions so that the air is not vacuum tight? I imagine there are many approaches to bring the two closer together in ambiance.

The attacks on the legato are often way too soft. The bassoons in particular highlight the extreme difference in mood between the legato and articulation samples. Is there anyway to splice in the punchier attack portions as an option for high velocity triggering with the legato? The possibility of a small momentary phasing is preferable to an instrument that can only render placid lines.

Why are the close mic's on the legato so different sounding, in the raw tone, not accounting for transitions or release samples. I'm not after a concert hall sound and often want to use the close mics only (the cartoon preset) The articulations sound great, but the legato sounds like it's still in the hall. They don't match at all.

I agree with what has been said about the far too narrow dynamic range, but that is a livable situation. These other issues really take the library down a notch. The legato sounds nice, the articulations sound nice -- they just don't sound good or natural when played in succession, perfect is unachievable but close is pretty far off as well.

I'm still getting used to them and will be working with them all weekend towards a deadline. Hopefully I will find some workarounds to make them less inconsistent.


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## RiffWraith (Jun 30, 2012)

gregjazz @ Sat Jun 30 said:


> Simon Ravn @ Sat Jun 30 said:
> 
> 
> > *However*, I am having problems with stuck notes when playing legato. This has happened both with the flute and the oboe, and it happens quite frequently actually. There must be some problems with the scripting... ? I am using Logic and this is straight into Logic, no Vienna Ensemble or anything.
> ...



I too see stuck notes. It happens rarely, and randomly. It is completely unreproducable. It usually happens while I am playing. The two times it happened when I have had MIDI laid down, it would only happen once. Without changing anything, I would play the MIDI a second time, then a third, then a fourth - and it would be fine. I do not have this with any other lib.

Cheers.


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## devastat (Jun 30, 2012)

Stuck notes happens to me as well occasionally while I am playing live, so it happens to me too..


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## Biggator1999 (Jun 30, 2012)

I've noticed the stuck notes when I'm playing multiple voices on the articulations patches. So far I've just heard it on the flute, but it might be on the other ones as well. I'll be back with more if I notice anything.


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## dannegovan (Jun 30, 2012)

I'm late to the party I see but let me say that I'm sorry if I misrepresented myself by not saying I work for cinesamples, and also if it seemed like I was blowing off any criticism of the library. We take constructive suggestions seriously.

By saying "this will give life to your tracks" I meant that by including real sounds real people make when they play their instruments it can make your music sound more authentic. Another example is some of the key clicking on the bassoon. We thought about getting rid of it with spectral editing but at the end of the day we put a mic on a player and that's the noise they made so that's what we used. It would be the same if you were recording a live piece - the bassoon might emit key clicks or the flute might hiss when the player is trying to release quietly.

-Dan


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## Cinesamples (Jul 1, 2012)

Thanks for the stuck note observation. I have encountered this as well. I can't seem to make it happen on command.

Putting on the list.

Anything else for v1.1?


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## Dominik Raab (Jul 1, 2012)

Hi folks,

not a bug, only a suggestion. Would it be possible to add the keyswitch feature to the vibrato control just as with the trills?
What I mean is: As long as you're holding the key, the non-vibrato note glides into vibrato. Would be great for things like a short vibrato at the end of a non-vibrato note (expressive playing style or whatever you want to call it).
Maybe I'm deaf, but as far as I know CC#2 doesn't really "fade". There's a certain threshold (possibly 65?). Below threshold: non-vibrato; above threshold: vibrato. If it really is like this, a keyswitch option shouldn't be a problem.

Best,
Dom


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## RiffWraith (Jul 1, 2012)

CineSamples @ Sun Jul 01 said:


> Anything else for v1.1?



Smoother legato transitions, if at all possible.

And this - I have been talking to Dan about this. I am still waiting for a return email from him, but while I am here... I would like a way to be able to switch between artics - to go from legato, to trill, to 1/2 note stac, to 1/4 note stac - with the patch loaded, but the instance of Kontakt closed. I do not have a sustain pedal, and in a previous email, Dan mentioned something about using some sort of midi controller data to switch between the artics, but I don't get how to do that.

Cheers.


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## synapse21 (Jul 1, 2012)

With CineBrass, I tried to set up an expression map for it, but found it wasn't necessary. I expect CineWinds to be the same way.

However, I usually draw in the expression, modulation or sustain by hand when editing the MIDI data to get a line to sound right, which has worked pretty well for me.

Different story for "playing" the part live, though.

- Rodney


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## Ryan Scully (Jul 1, 2012)

prscully20 @ Sat Jun 30 said:


> Lovin the library so far!
> 
> Is there anyway to move up the double/triple tonguing keyswitches by lets say, an octave?
> 
> ...



Just curious about this - not sure if it can be done now or under the hood in Kontakt(I try to stay out of there as much as possible ha).


Ryan :D


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## handz (Jul 3, 2012)

So nobody using the lib so far? Discussion bit of died out...


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## synapse21 (Jul 3, 2012)

I recently used the clarinet and it sounded excellent. I put the same dynamics envelope controller performance I wrote in with CC1 in for the Breath CC2 (vibrato) and it felt very believable.


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## noiseboyuk (Jul 3, 2012)

I only just realised something. I don't see any mention of the AFM agreement with regards to CineWinds. Can someone confirm whether or not this a union library?


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## dannthr (Jul 4, 2012)

Oh man, I just assumed it was--that was a major selling point for me for the whole series...


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## Blakus (Jul 4, 2012)

It does say this:


> As always we share our revenue with our brilliant team of programmers, engineers, editors and musicians.


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## Daryl (Jul 4, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Wed Jul 04 said:


> I only just realised something. I don't see any mention of the AFM agreement with regards to CineWinds. Can someone confirm whether or not this a union library?


Does that matter? How does this affect the quality of the product?

D


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## noiseboyuk (Jul 4, 2012)

Daryl @ Wed Jul 04 said:


> noiseboyuk @ Wed Jul 04 said:
> 
> 
> > I only just realised something. I don't see any mention of the AFM agreement with regards to CineWinds. Can someone confirm whether or not this a union library?
> ...



It mattered in CineBrass - indeed it was used as a major selling point, and as Dan said it mattered to a lot of folks who want to support musicians.

I'm merely asking the question - maybe they have made their own arrangements for compensation rather than the AFM, but it would be good to know.


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## Daryl (Jul 4, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Wed Jul 04 said:


> Daryl @ Wed Jul 04 said:
> 
> 
> > noiseboyuk @ Wed Jul 04 said:
> ...


Ah, I see. A pseudo moral argument. I don't really see what the Union has to do with it though. In my experience most of the best players aren't even in the Union. It's probably different in the US.

D


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## Mike Connelly (Jul 6, 2012)

It probably is.


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## handz (Jul 6, 2012)

Well so about some new demos, naked demos, user demos... Im really surprised it is so quiet around this lib here now. 

with BWW price point being bit too much for me and some others probably Im really considering this lib. 

For sure there is EW WW lib coming 23th with gold edition (with all the features just one mic position) priced for 475$ but the Play engine have a scarecrow effect on me.


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## williemyers (Jul 6, 2012)

Daryl @ Wed Jul 04 said:


> ...I don't really see what the Union has to do with it though. In my experience most of the best players aren't even in the Union. It's probably different in the US.
> D


yeah, Daryl....not sure *where* your are?! If it's the US, or Canada, or Britain, or Germany, etc., the best orchestral players are almost always union members. Note, I said orchestral, which would include woodwind players.


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## Daryl (Jul 6, 2012)

williemyers @ Fri Jul 06 said:


> Daryl @ Wed Jul 04 said:
> 
> 
> > ...I don't really see what the Union has to do with it though. In my experience most of the best players aren't even in the Union. It's probably different in the US.
> ...


That is not necessarily the case in the UK. I don't know about the other countries you mention.

Sorry, this is getting off the point I was trying to make, which was that being in the Union has nothing to do with quality of player. Unless they audition you first. They certainly don't do that in the UK!

D


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## williemyers (Jul 6, 2012)

Daryl @ Fri Jul 06 said:


> williemyers @ Fri Jul 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Daryl @ Wed Jul 04 said:
> ...


fair enough, Daryl....I want you to keep believing that. It helps ensure that, the next time I'm booking a live orch for a film score in London, I won't have to worry about any quality players being booked on a session for you!!


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## jamwerks (Jul 6, 2012)

I'm pretty sure most (if not all) of the musicians that do film score recording in London (at Air & Abby Road) are union.


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## Daryl (Jul 6, 2012)

jamwerks @ Fri Jul 06 said:


> I'm pretty sure most (if not all) of the musicians that do film score recording in London (at Air & Abby Road) are union.


Why, did you ask to see their Union cards? :lol: 

D


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## dcoscina (Jul 6, 2012)

I have been using it. It's great. Just really busy with day job stuff these days...and Sibelius 7 concert piece composition.


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## williemyers (Jul 6, 2012)

Daryl @ Fri Jul 06 said:


> jamwerks @ Fri Jul 06 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm pretty sure most (if not all) of the musicians that do film score recording in London (at Air & Abby Road) are union.
> ...


Daryl.....you really haven't been down this road, have you?.... :roll: :roll:


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## jamwerks (Jul 7, 2012)

Daryl @ Fri Jul 06 said:


> did you ask to see their Union cards



No, but there are union regulations there about overdubbing & max minutes per hour that we had to abide by. Seemed clear to me how things functioned.


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## Daryl (Jul 7, 2012)

jamwerks @ Sat Jul 07 said:


> Daryl @ Fri Jul 06 said:
> 
> 
> > did you ask to see their Union cards
> ...


That just means that the session was run under the auspices of a Union negaotiated agreement. It doesn't mean that all the players were actually members of the Union. They might have been, but it would be illegal to insist on it.

D


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## Cinesamples (Jul 7, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Wed Jul 04 said:


> Daryl @ Wed Jul 04 said:
> 
> 
> > noiseboyuk @ Wed Jul 04 said:
> ...



Hi Guy, 
All the musicians, engineers, sample editors, programmers who worked on CineWinds share in the revenue. Just as we did with CineBrass.
A percentage of your purchase goes directly to these people. 

I suppose some information for you guys:
The AFM union is not in the library business (trailer library music or sampling). The CineBrass contracts were one-off negotiated deals that they are no longer offering, without explaination to us. The argument that I have heard from the regime is that they think it puts musicians out of work, and they are fearful of this technology. I will leave it at that, but I am curious to hear your opinions on the matter.

At the end of the day, we have fantastic relationships with the musicians that work with us, and they understand the library business and the way things work in 2012. Union contracts or not, we will continue to create great libraries, with great musicians, and share in the rewards of our hard work.

What are your thoughts on this?
MP

PS Does anyone have some user demos of CineWinds they can post? You are right, we need a few more up here.


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## Mossad (Jul 7, 2012)

CineSamples @ Sat Jul 07 said:


> noiseboyuk @ Wed Jul 04 said:
> 
> 
> > Daryl @ Wed Jul 04 said:
> ...



Maybe sample libraries put musicians out of work and maybe they don't...I wouldn't be able to venture a definitive answer since I don't have any real data. I think it depends on the relative budget of the project. Mid to larger scale projects will almost always go for the live musicians I would think. When a film like LOTR or Batman has a completely 100% sample based score, then I'll be worried.

But I'll just say in my experience even for very low budget stuff, directors have always asked, ALWAYS, "Hey...is it going to be possible to get real musicians for this?" There's just something very alluring and powerful I guess for them to tell people, "We got real people for the score". At least that's what it's always seemed like to me.

And with all due respect to all sample developers, although the line is definitely getting blurred between the real deal and samples...samples are still a ways off from mimicking all the nuances of a real human performance.


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## José Herring (Jul 7, 2012)

Sharing the profits is really a good thing. 

I remember bringing this up back once and got a really tight lip from Eric Persing on the subject. This was after he argued that his sounds were "sound recordings" and protected under law, blah, blah... I then said that if that where true then why not offer the musicians a piece of the profits like any other sound recording. Never got a response.

I am glad to see that there is a company out there respecting the musicians.

As for the question of whether this technology is putting players out of work, the answer to that is yes. Make no mistake about it. Like automation replaced factory workers in Detriot, samples have replaced live sessions.

Back when I first got here I use to get gigs and there was always money set aside for live players, now that just isn't the case. 

That's one reason why I go hot and cold on samples in general. Kind of love hate thing. It's wonderful to have the tools, not so great that its replacing any hope of using real people on about 90% of the music production happening today.

I'm even more resentful that it's given people that know nothing about anything concerning music the tools to bang out endless amounts of orchestral sounding fluff....

No not bitter at all, not me...


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## Ed (Jul 7, 2012)

josejherring @ Sat Jul 07 said:


> I then said that if that where true then why not offer the musicians a piece of the profits like any other sound recording.



uh. Most of the time musicians do not get a share of the profits. Its like any other kind of work where their performance is a complete buy out. If I hire a session musician to play clarinet on my track, he gets a fee and goes on his way.


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## Cinesamples (Jul 7, 2012)

I am with you Mossad. I think anyone here at VI would argue that live musicians is better, it's the age-old debate.
Do you think if you had a budget for players that you would stick with samples?
I know I wouldn't. Samples suck.


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## synergy543 (Jul 7, 2012)

Hoping to hear some more examples with softer lyrical passages soon.


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## Ed (Jul 7, 2012)

synergy543 @ Sat Jul 07 said:


> --no longer exists so took out quote --.



oh no you di'int!!!


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## synergy543 (Jul 7, 2012)

Ed @ Sat Jul 07 said:


> oh no you di'int!!!



"Sorry Ed, I'm afraid I can't let you do that".

o


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## José Herring (Jul 7, 2012)

Ed @ Sat Jul 07 said:


> josejherring @ Sat Jul 07 said:
> 
> 
> > I then said that if that where true then why not offer the musicians a piece of the profits like any other sound recording.
> ...



Not if he was union. :D


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## jamwerks (Jul 7, 2012)

Even though most of the work done with samples wouldn't have gotten done with live players, there's no doubt imo that samples little by little put live musicians out of work.

Think of how many drummers are out of work with all the great loops and percussion sw. Orchestral samples are already used in placed where yesterday, real musicians were used. But of course live musicians will alway be a step (or 2) above samples..


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## noiseboyuk (Jul 7, 2012)

CineSamples @ Sat Jul 07 said:


> Hi Guy,
> All the musicians, engineers, sample editors, programmers who worked on CineWinds share in the revenue. Just as we did with CineBrass.
> A percentage of your purchase goes directly to these people.
> 
> ...



Thanks for this, Mike. I'm not sure what else you could have done in the circumstances. I think it's a great shame that the AFM backed your pioneering scheme, supported by A list musicians happy to put their name to it, and are now recinding their support.

I can only assume its pressure from particular members who don't want to go down the sampling road at all. I can understand that view, but it goes without saying that it won't put the genie back in the bottle. Either you can work with sample developers or pretend they don't exist, it seems to me.

So I feel bad for you guys – bravo for your pioneering spirit in forging the deal for CineBrass. In the meantime, giving royalties to all involved continues the same spirit of fair play, even if it doesn't have the official seal of approval.


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## Ed (Jul 8, 2012)

josejherring @ Sat Jul 07 said:


> Not if he was union. :D



Obviously I dont know how it works in the US, but if one session musician plays on my track, how much of a percentage of royalties/licence do I need to give him then? 1%? 5%? What if a whole orchestra plays on it? I have to give each player 5% forever? I highly doubt it works the way you seem to be saying it works


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## Daryl (Jul 8, 2012)

Ed @ Sun Jul 08 said:


> josejherring @ Sat Jul 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Not if he was union. :D
> ...


Union rules in the US and UK are different.

D


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## Ed (Jul 8, 2012)

Daryl @ Sun Jul 08 said:


> Union rules in the US and UK are different.
> 
> D



He didnt say anythng about Unions, but even in the US Id be surprised if it works the way Jose is suggesting they work AND as if Sample Libraries are different to other sound recordings.


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## Darthmorphling (Jul 8, 2012)

josejherring @ Sat Jul 07 said:


> That's one reason why I go hot and cold on samples in general. Kind of love hate thing. It's wonderful to have the tools, not so great that its replacing any hope of using real people on about 90% of the music production happening today.
> 
> I'm even more resentful that it's given people that know nothing about anything concerning music the tools to bang out endless amounts of orchestral sounding fluff....
> 
> No not bitter at all, not me...



This is what technology does. It allows things to become more accessible. You can argue that this is a bad thing, but I disagree. Allowing more people the opportunity to experience crafting music does put a lot of crap out there, but you can find some really good music written by people that probably wouldn't have done so without technology.

I have been a guitar player for almost 30 years. I am a hobbyist at best. My playing a high end guitar is not going to make me sound like John Petrucci or Joe Satriani. It doesn't stop me from playing though.

I have Albion and I can guarantee that my compositions with that library are not going to infringe on any of your work. However, I have heard some music written with it that just might.

it is fun writing music using it and I am having fun learning about music theory. Theory is something that I have never before thought was fun and technology has created that.

My seven year old has learned how to arm tracks and select Albion patches in my DAW. You may need to start worrying now!


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## paulcole (Jul 8, 2012)

Darthmorphling @ Sun Jul 08 said:


> This is what technology does. It allows things to become more accessible. You can argue that this is a bad thing, but I disagree. Allowing more people the opportunity to experience crafting music does put a lot of crap out there, but you can find some really good music written by people that probably wouldn't have done so without technology.
> 
> I have been a guitar player for almost 30 years. I am a hobbyist at best. My playing a high end guitar is not going to make me sound like John Petrucci or Joe Satriani. It doesn't stop me from playing though.
> 
> ...



Great post and that's the way it should be!


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## Synesthesia (Jul 8, 2012)

Ed @ Sun Jul 08 said:


> Daryl @ Sun Jul 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Union rules in the US and UK are different.
> ...



Ed you may be surprised!

With the BBC for example, you can either buy out the performances or the production pays a percentage of any overseas sales income to the fixer to be distributed to the musos. The buyout option can be quite expensive, so you get a mixture of both approaches.

Paying for Secondary usage, like CD soundtracks etc, also is somewhat similar both sides of the pond.

Cheers,

Paul


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## Synesthesia (Jul 8, 2012)

But - its a performer right rather than a sound recording right.


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## José Herring (Jul 8, 2012)

Ed @ Sun Jul 08 said:


> Daryl @ Sun Jul 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Union rules in the US and UK are different.
> ...



How would you know? If you're not a member of the union here.

Here's the special agreement. This is for Nashville, but there's a similar one for every local union. http://www.nashvillemusicians.org/documents/SRLAletter13.pdf (http://www.nashvillemusicians.org/docum ... tter13.pdf)

And, we're not talking about going to your studio apt to do an overdub Ed.  We're talking about real gigs for musicians, with health and pension benefits, special payments based on units sold, ect.

So my argument always was if devs are so concerned about protecting their sample libraries as "sound recordings" then why don't they enter into standard union contracts with the musicians who make the sound recordings? It's an angle that the union is totally missing. I keep on thinking that someday I might bring it up to them. But seeing how it would totally kill the sample business I haven't yet done it.


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## Ed (Jul 8, 2012)

You didnt say anything about a union before (and we're talking about your US unions anyway rather than everywhere), and "sound recording" doesnt necessarily have anything to do with musicians either.

But anyway I'd like to know how it works, like in my example. If I record an orchestra or official record some soloist, what percentage of the royalties/licence fees would I need to give them?


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## José Herring (Jul 8, 2012)

Ed @ Sun Jul 08 said:


> But anyway I'd like to know how it works, like in my example. If I record an orchestra or official record some soloist, what percentage of the royalties/licence fees would I need to give them?



None. The special payments are charged to the production company or record company. In film the musicians get a percentage of the BO. In records a percentage of the dollar value of units sold. As I understand it its scaled so the fee would increase based on how many units sold.

I've never been too clear on how it works. I just know that I've gotten special payments in the past for certain gigs that I went union.

Also, there are a lot of companies that will opt out of it. Lions Gate is one of them. Had to sign an agreement with Lionsgate that basically said they aren't responsible for paying anything other than what was agreed upon in the original contract, blah, blah....

All this legal stuff makes my head spin. So I've avoided it. But, with upfront fees coming down, I need to pay more attention to that stuff.


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## Ed (Jul 8, 2012)

Thats interesting Jose, i didnt know that. 
I did notice this though:



> "there are *a lot of companies that will opt out of it*. Lions Gate is one of them. Had to sign an agreement with Lionsgate that basically said they aren't responsible for paying anything other than what was agreed upon in the original contract, blah, blah.... "



vs...



> I remember bringing this up back once and got a really tight lip from Eric Persing on the subject. This was after he argued that his sounds were "sound recordings" and protected under law, blah, blah... I then said that if that where true then why not offer the musicians a piece of the profits *like any other sound recording*. Never got a response.



So even in the US, "a lot of companies" don't pay anything further to musicians whos performances are recorded. If its not unusual to operate on a buy out basis, why is it so strange that sample libraries would also? Seems quite similar to the conversation over on the "reselling your sample libraries" thread, people keep trying to act like sample libraries are different to the rest of the industry.


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## José Herring (Jul 8, 2012)

Different thing entirely.

A sound recording, as in records, is waaay different than a film score legally. 

It's practically impossible for a record company to opt out of it, unless of course they're using samples 

And if Lionsgate wants to go union I suspect that they'd have a hard time getting out of it too, unless they go to a right to work state.

In my case Lionsgate picked up a film that had already been done independently and they want to protect themselves from a union coming in a saying they owe musicians "x" dollars.

It's always been tricky. But, it is totally a false argument for a developer to say, "this is a sound recording like any other record" and then not sign any of the union agreements that cover sound recordings. Bad!!! But, seeing how unions don't want to confront samples, it understandable.

But, back on topic.

For any developer to even entertain the idea that this technology hasn't had a severe impact on the employment of musicians is whistling past the grave yard. It's like the death of the professional musician is coming or is already here and we're all saying, "had nothing to do with what we're doing". Bullshit!!! It has everything to do with what we're doing here and now. And saying we're not sure, is like some global warming denier saying that cars may or may not impact greenhouse gases. Of course it does.

But on the broad sense, it's not just samples but music technology in general. People that were building synths in the 50ies and 60ies had the express purpose of allowing people with no musical knowledge or training to be able to do music. Their vision has been realized. You're living proof of it.


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## handz (Jul 8, 2012)

Guys.... union or not, who cares, I woud be interested into more demos about the lib actually...


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## Ed (Jul 8, 2012)

But Jose in the end you cannot say they should have to sign union agreements when not all recordings of musicans require this or do sign those agreements. You already told me yourself that many companies dont do it, even in the US. If practices in sample libraries arent an anomaly then your argument cant hold up. Your argument only works on the basis that they are operating totally differently. (You should also stop saying "sound" recordings since not all "sound" recordings involve musicians.)

Whether or not it takes away work from real musicians and that we should help support them more, possibly in the way you're describing, is a seperate issue.


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## organix (Jul 9, 2012)

CineSamples @ 1st July said:


> Anything else for v1.1?



First thank you Cinesamples for that great Woodwind library.  It's a great addition to CineBrass, contains the same nicely noise footprint and playing them together brings a full and rich open sound. 

I'm satisfied, but there are some points to improve, maybe in 1.1.
Here are my thoughts.

- Vibrato control seems only a switch with on/off and I have no direct control over depth and envelope. At every note, the vibrato begins at the same time with the same depth. More user control on this would be nice. Or instead of full user controllable vibrato, think about different kinds of vibrato (soft, slow, hard etc.)

- Controllable intensity of key and wind noises for that extra amount of realism. 

- To build up ensembles with always the same solo instrument, it would be helpful to bring some slightly differences on each instance. Maybe some kind of micro tuning, different attacks and humanizing with random parameters.

- Portamento patches, especially on flute. I know it's not easy to play portamento on woodwinds, but it's possible.

- Pre recorded runs, temposynced. HWW only contains tutti ensembles and not that solo's.

- Some kind of a slur-run articulation for playing fast passages. 

That's all for the moment. :D 

Markus


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## synapse21 (Jul 9, 2012)

> I suppose some information for you guys:
> The AFM union is not in the library business (trailer library music or sampling). The CineBrass contracts were one-off negotiated deals that they are no longer offering, without explaination to us. The argument that I have heard from the regime is that they think it puts musicians out of work, and they are fearful of this technology. I will leave it at that, but I am curious to hear your opinions on the matter.
> 
> At the end of the day, we have fantastic relationships with the musicians that work with us, and they understand the library business and the way things work in 2012. Union contracts or not, we will continue to create great libraries, with great musicians, and share in the rewards of our hard work.
> ...



We recently had a recording date with a 60-piece string and brass orchestra and went back and forth on whether we were going to make it an AFM gig or not. In the end, we simply wanted to have full rights to the music to use as we saw fit, in advertising, in our game, etc., without the restrictions of reuse fees, etc. To wholly own it outright made the most sense.

I was, however, surprised to hear that a lot of "dark dates" are occurring in LA these days, in comparison to union gigs. The AFM not wanting to renew the contract with CineSamples' CineWinds when clearly CS were lending a hand to the support of the union with CineBrass is the kind of thing that turns people off, which is unfortunate.

The musicians are what matter, and they will always be able to deliver something that samples will not quite attain (the day the perfect Itzhak Perlman "Schindler's Violin" comes out, let me know).

I just listened to the mockups of some of our orchestral cues today against the near-final mixes from our recent recording session and the difference is night and day, despite the brilliant MIDI programming of our composer using LASS, Hollywood Brass, and other great libraries. Truly excellent, and I'm thrilled we had the budget for it.


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## Cinesamples (Jul 9, 2012)

Thanks Organix/Marcus. Noted. 

+1 Synapse, great post.


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## Hanu_H (Jul 10, 2012)

What about something like BWW's dynamic indicator? Maybe just showing the dynamic layer in the corner of the GUI, no need for a actual bar. That would make things a lot easier if you could make it consistent for all of your Cine libraries. Then making mock-ups from sheets would be a lot easier, no guessing for the dynamics anymore.


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## Igor (Jul 10, 2012)

synergy543 @ Sat Jul 07 said:


> Hoping to hear some more examples with softer lyrical passages soon.



+1


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## skanafchian (Jul 11, 2012)

Hey guys,

Just wanted to chime in here. Recently bought CineWinds and for the most part I'm really happy with it.

The main thing that I'd suggest changing, and it's really grinding on my ears, is what some others have mentioned already--there's a nasty high pitch breath noise around 11.8khz on the flute tail. I know this only occurs when playing relatively high in the flutes range but if there would be any of way of tidying that up, or at least reducing it that would be amazing.

I'm doing some surgical work with EQ right now but I feel like this would be something much more easily fixed on your end!

Other than that, great work 

Thanks.

Shahin


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## KMuzzey (Jul 11, 2012)

The always-going-on debate about samples putting musicians out of work is one that's starting to sound to me like the "digital photography and photoshop are going to destroy photography" debates of 10 years ago. 

The big guys -- the heavy-hitters -- are still using live orchestras for their studio films. And those budgets have all been augmented to now include MIDI programmers and audio tech folks where those jobs didn't exist before. Samples have brought the bottom half of media -- indie films, network TV, cable TV, artists launching recording careers on iTunes, basically the stuff that never would've had a budget for live instruments to begin with -- up to a better quality of final product. What low-budget indie film would ever be able to hire a few string players, guitarist, harpist, pianist & winds?

I don't think the samples vs. real players debate needs to be a zero-sum game. Some jobs have disappeared, some have been created. And as far as composers go, there are so many more opportunities to make money as a composer than there were just 10 years ago. That counts as more jobs too.

It *is* possible for things to be a win-win. Just my $.02. 

Kerry


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## Craig Sharmat (Jul 11, 2012)

That's easy for you say sitting nice and cozy in Santa Monica...its 105 today in Woodland Hills.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 11, 2012)

KMuzzey @ Wed Jul 11 said:


> The always-going-on debate about samples putting musicians out of work is one that's starting to sound to me like the "digital photography and photoshop are going to destroy photography" debates of 10 years ago.
> 
> The big guys -- the heavy-hitters -- are still using live orchestras for their studio films. And those budgets have all been augmented to now include MIDI programmers and audio tech folks where those jobs didn't exist before. Samples have brought the bottom half of media -- indie films, network TV, cable TV, artists launching recording careers on iTunes, basically the stuff that never would've had a budget for live instruments to begin with -- up to a better quality of final product. What low-budget indie film would ever be able to hire a few string players, guitarist, harpist, pianist & winds?
> 
> ...



Yes, but like many things in this economy, the jobs that are being created pay a lot less than the ones going away.


Back in the 90's when I di "a tv film called "Fugitive Nights" for NBC, I was hired by TriStar, a notoriously cheap company. I had the relatively modest budget of $30,000.

i have not had a budget like that in 10 years and composers like me lose jobs to people who do not know what we know about putting music to picture, composition and orchestration, but who can make decent sounding stuff with samples that an editor can _sort of_ make work with the picture for far less than even I am willing to work for, which is not a modest amount.

This may sound like I am whining and bitter, but I don't mean it to be, it is just a factual statement.


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## KMuzzey (Jul 11, 2012)

Craig Sharmat @ Wed Jul 11 said:


> That's easy for you say sitting nice and cozy in Santa Monica...its 105 today in Woodland Hills.



I know!! It's actually really cool over here... like, almost chilly. It's a scorching 67 degrees.


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## KMuzzey (Jul 11, 2012)

Jay, I get your point. 

My point is that it's not a zero-sum game. Samples haven't replaced real musicians where real musicians never would've been an option in the first place. In those cases, people now have access to better-quality music. And for people who say "but now some kid with GarageBand can sit in his basement and score a network TV show with loops" I'd defy anybody to show me a network TV show that's scored by a kid in his basement with GarageBand. The big stuff still requires capable people to demo for the gig or to be hired based on their already-existing reputation, and the studio flicks haven't started scoring "Dark Knight" or "The Avengers" with samples. I feel like I can't even read forums anymore without every thread having a "samples have killed music" entry in it. Sure, live musicians are awesome. But if you're given a $5k budget to score a Lifetime movie, or $500-1000 to score an indie flick when you're just starting out, samples are the only way because you'd never be able to afford musicians in the first place. 

The positive that I take away from this is that there are more people able to make money by composing than were able to make money from it 10 years ago. The pot-o-gold may have shrunk, but there are more of them to go around and we've all had to diversify to keep the income coming in. There's a win for everyone in there, although it may not be as big a payday as it once was. 

Kerry


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## Ed (Jul 11, 2012)

KMuzzey @ Wed Jul 11 said:


> And for people who say "but now some kid with GarageBand can sit in his basement and score a network TV show with loops" I'd defy anybody to show me a network TV show that's scored by a kid in his basement with GarageBand.



hahah yea I'd like to see that too! I'd say, anyone that says that should be told to stop saying that until they can show this actually happens. You could say I am only a composer because of technology (true), but I like to think Im a lot better than some kid with Garageband, but it is possible Im the kind of composer Jay is referring to.

EDIT: Having said that I do understand where Jay is coming from, its not entirely wrong.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 11, 2012)

So kerry, you believe that it is better for 5,000 guys of varying but overall probably less skilled to work, and make SOME money, but not enough to make a living than 500 skilled guys to work and make a living?

If so, we will just never agree on this.


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## KMuzzey (Jul 11, 2012)

No, I don't believe that at all. My argument isn't in favor of less-talented people being let in the door or about weakening the exceptional talent pool by adding mediocre talent to the mix: it's about people of talent having a chance to make a splash and prove themselves by having access to great tools, and to find work even if they don't live in L.A., and even if they don't have a big music budget for a small project. Just because you own a great sample library doesn't mean you can write music, or write music to picture, or even make yourself sound good. You can give a hammer and nails to 2 different people, and one will build a mansion with it and one will just smash his thumb while trying. The tools don't make the composer, but in the hands of a talented composer those tools will become magic. In the hands of a less-able person, those tools will just sound like... tools. 

Kerry


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## KMuzzey (Jul 11, 2012)

(Apologies for re-directing the thread! And now back to our regularly scheduled CineWinds....)


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## Akiha (Jul 17, 2012)

Guys, sounds great but defiantly noticing stuck notes occasionally on the legato patches.

As a random test I loaded them into Kontakt stand alone and just clicked on the note keys quickly within Kontakt - to prevent anything else interfering in the midi chain, and sustained notes are getting stuck. To replicate just click quickly then hold down a note, once you mouse off it remains sustained indefinitely. Retriggering any other note makes it normal again. Not hard to replicate.

Unless I am missing something in the way the patch is designed?


Also, Flute flutter tongues please. <3


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## Akiha (Jul 17, 2012)

Clarinet patch seems the worst for stuck notes. Running from a SSD with decent machine specs fwiw. Can anyone else replicate this issue?


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## gregjazz (Jul 17, 2012)

Akiha @ Tue Jul 17 said:


> As a random test I loaded them into Kontakt stand alone and just clicked on the note keys quickly within Kontakt - to prevent anything else interfering in the midi chain, and sustained notes are getting stuck. To replicate just click quickly then hold down a note, once you mouse off it remains sustained indefinitely. Retriggering any other note makes it normal again. Not hard to replicate.


I've been clicking for 10 minutes, following your instructions, but still can't get any stuck notes. If you disable the release delay control (labeled "RL DELAY" in the settings page) does that affect the stuck note issue?


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## Mike Connelly (Jul 17, 2012)

Is there a possibility of getting back into the studio at some point for a bit more material to fill any gaps?

The main thing that comes to mind is flutter tongue for all the flutes.


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## organix (Jul 17, 2012)

One more for the wish list.  

Realtime changing the articulation mapping presets by keyswitch or CC. 
On some slower passages the inverse velocity map is easier to play and on faster lines the normal velocity map does quite well. So it would be nice to switch between the mapping presets in realtime.

Markus


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## Cinesamples (Aug 1, 2012)

Hi Guys, thanks for the feedback.

I just made a new video, posted to our Facebook page. Tutorial on woodwind writing:


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## DaddyO (Aug 1, 2012)

Thanks a bunch, Mike, and congratulations on the birth of your child. Enjoy your children, they grow up all too quickly, and while the joy remains and deepens, there is nothing like the enjoyment of young children.

So a purchase now of CineWinds and/or CineBrass will include the upcoming new recordings and the fixes to existing ones?

And will a purchase now of CineBrass include or not include any prospective update to the interface to match that of CineWinds?


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## vrocko (Aug 1, 2012)

To hear you say that you guys recorded new material for Cinebrass core/pro is great news. As an owner of both I use them as primary brass libs. Hopefully this update puts Cinebrass over the top and fixes some of the minor glitches.


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## shakuman (Aug 1, 2012)

Many thanks Mike and congrats for your new baby :mrgreen: ,downloading now! o=< 

Shakuman.


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## quantum7 (Aug 2, 2012)

Thank you very much for the video!!! Congrats also on the new baby.....got one coming myself in 3 months and cannot wait.


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## benmrx (Aug 10, 2012)

I'll be in woodwind purchasing mode here in a few days. Would LOVE to hear another demo showing off Cinewinds. I just have this feeling like the 'sound' that I'm looking for might be there, but not shown in any of the demo's thus far. 

Unless I'm missing something, there are 2 demos for Cinewinds. One by Alexander Temple on the Cinesamples site,.... which is a great piece, very big, full, busy and somewhat distant sounding..., and Daniel James' piece which is more... modern/epic/verby. Also, the video a few posts above shows some more, but IMO isn't the greatest example. 

I would REALLY love to hear something that's more... I don't know... 'woodwindy'. Ya know, closer mics mixed in, bouncing around all over the place. I hate to directly compare to the 'other' libary, but something similar to Sascha Knorrs demo for Berlin Woodwinds. Maybe give ol' Alex Pfeffer a copy and let him go to town!!

Would really love to hear some traditional runs. Since there aren't any pre-recorded runs in Cinewinds, I'm hoping they can be programmed with decent realism. I know, I know.... a few tall orders there. Just getting excited is all. My virtual orchestra is nearing completion!

Also read that an update with new sample content is around the corner. VERY curious about that!!!!


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## jamwerks (Aug 10, 2012)

Nice tutorial !


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## organix (Aug 10, 2012)

Thanks for the video.  

I like the idea of showing some principals on how to use midi for sample-libs. You have indeed noted that these examples can make with any other woodwind lib, but actually it was then but very related to Cinewinds. 
Should be no critism and it is understandable, that you are referring more on your product.  


The Bassoon legato part sound a little bit slurred and smeary to me. Maybe it can be improved by bringing the legato speed knob up to a higher level. And furthermore playing some accented notes, by pushing the velocity up, can make this more natural. 

Btw, the accented note feature by playing legato/sustain on high velocity is somehow not mentioned in the manual or at the product page. But this is also a nice key feature, because it allows accented notes playing and sforzando as well.

Markus


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