# Looking to buy a full-size weighted master keyboard. Any recommendations?



## Karma (May 27, 2016)

I'm finally getting around to building myself a studio and my next big step is purchasing a piano/keyboard.

I'm a pianist, so fully weighted keys is a must. My budget is around £600 ($870) at max.
My issue is I literally have zero knowledge in this department... So I'm hoping one of you guys can clue me in a little.

Cheers!


----------



## Gerhard Westphalen (May 27, 2016)

I've played on a Studio Logic which had the same action as the Doepfers and I really liked it. The SL tend to be cheaper than the Doepfers and are more readily available. I'm not sure how the other Fatar keybed models are though but I imagine they're also pretty good. I've played on a Yamaha P-115 which I really didn't like. It felt pretty light. In my studio I use a Yamaha CVP-409 which I really like but it's out of your budget. I'm not sure how the Yamahas in between those 2 are. You could probably find a Yamaha dealer close by to try some out. I wouldn't buy a keyboard without playing it first. I'm not a fan of the Rolands I've tried as they tend to have a different feel on the surface of the keys but perhaps you'd like one of those. There are many different stage pianos around that price but the issue with them is that they're usually considerably thicker than controller keyboards because of speakers and other electronics so they can be more difficult to fit into your setup.


----------



## C-Wave (May 27, 2016)

This... As close to your budget as it gets .. Any less and you compromise big time:


Hope it helps.


----------



## Baron Greuner (May 28, 2016)

Depends n how good a keyboard player you are. This sounds slightly odd I agree, but if you're a crap player, then you could use just about anything and it won't matter. If on the other hand, you're a very competent player, then a crap keyboard will only frustrate you from minute one.


----------



## Karma (May 28, 2016)

C-Wave said:


> This... As close to your budget as it gets .. Any less and you compromise big time:
> 
> 
> Hope it helps.



This looks perfect. I'm going to look into it now! Thanks!


----------



## muk (May 28, 2016)

If you are looking for a keybed that at least somewhat resembles a real piano digital pianos are miles ahead of master keyboards. Because thats what they try to be, a substitute for a real piano, while a master keyboard does not. I'm not up to date what is currently on the market, but when I looked there were at least some decent ones in your pricerange. 

The Roland A 800 comes to mind. It uses the same keybed as their lowend dp Fp4. It's not as good as the more expensive Fp7, but I found that one to be surprisingly playable, if somewhat light. 

Most important is that you don't buy blind. Go to the stores and really play the models you are interested in. And be honest with yourself. If you don't like the action, don't think you'll get used to it. Instead cross it off your list.


----------



## Prockamanisc (May 28, 2016)

muk said:


> Roland A 800 comes to mind


The Roland Juno DS88 is pretty much the same price as the A 800, but comes with 10x the features. Same playability.


----------



## muk (May 28, 2016)

Prockamanisc said:


> 10x the features. Same playability.



Sorry, I meant the Roland A 88, and you seem to tacitly have grasped that. Looks like the DS88 is sporting the same keybed, so it might be worth checking out.


----------



## dbudde (May 28, 2016)

You might want to read through this thread over at pianoworld. Lots of good info in there. Consensus seems to be that Kawai ES100 is the best in this price range.


----------



## Karma (May 28, 2016)

muk said:


> If you are looking for a keybed that at least somewhat resembles a real piano digital pianos are miles ahead of master keyboards. Because thats what they try to be, a substitute for a real piano, while a master keyboard does not. I'm not up to date what is currently on the market, but when I looked there were at least some decent ones in your pricerange.
> 
> The Roland A 800 comes to mind. It uses the same keybed as their lowend dp Fp4. It's not as good as the more expensive Fp7, but I found that one to be surprisingly playable, if somewhat light.
> 
> Most important is that you don't buy blind. Go to the stores and really play the models you are interested in. And be honest with yourself. If you don't like the action, don't think you'll get used to it. Instead cross it off your list.


Well I've spent my last few years at University playing Yamaha CP300's as well as actual Grand Pianos. The CP300's feel great to play. Obviously they are way out of price range, but I'd just like something that somewhat replicates the realism of a real piano. As long as it can handle MIDI as well!


----------



## chimuelo (May 28, 2016)

What's the big deal with weighted keys if they still lack any resolution over other grades of resistance?
Most responsive keyboard I ever use was the GEM from the last century and more recently infinite responses VAX77 which is now a kickstarter with 88.
I too am a Pianist and long gave up on scrappy heavy action keyboards.

I will hold criticism on the VAX88 as I know it's resolution is vastly superior using MIDI Spec II 88# which is 0-16000 versus the 0-128 spec from the Nixon era....


----------



## Karma (May 28, 2016)

chimuelo said:


> What's the big deal with weighted keys if they still lack any resolution over other grades of resistance?
> Most responsive keyboard I ever use was the GEM from the last century and more recently infinite responses VAX77 which is now a kickstarter with 88.
> I too am a Pianist and long gave up on scrappy heavy action keyboards.
> 
> I will hold criticism on the VAX88 as I know it's resolution is vastly superior using MIDI Spec II 88# which is 0-16000 versus the 0-128 spec from the Nixon era....


I think it's that a lot of my compositions tend to be piano based. I find that I am much more expressive within my playing when using weighted keys.


----------



## JohnG (May 28, 2016)

There is a lot of good information on this thread:

http://vi-control.net/community/thr...-key-midi-contoller.43987/page-9#post-3947574

I tried a lot of keyboards and found overall:

1. Too many of them are packed with features but cost too little to make everything high quality -- something cheap and flimsy about either the knobs, the wheels, the control surfaces, the keyboard, or the pedals;

2. A surprising number produce the error of sending random cc numbers when you don't want / don't intend;

3. You _really_ have to try the keyboard first-hand, since even the same model number will feel different from one to the other; and

4. Too many of the "imitation piano" action keyboards are bulky pieces of furniture with limited midi flexibility.

Good luck!


----------



## Baron Greuner (May 28, 2016)

chimuelo said:


> I will hold criticism on the VAX88 as I know it's resolution is vastly superior using MIDI Spec II 88# which is 0-16000 versus the 0-128 spec from the Nixon era....



Hahaha!


----------



## Baron Greuner (May 28, 2016)

Karmarghh said:


> I think it's that a lot of my compositions tend to be piano based. I find that I am much more expressive within my playing when using weighted keys.



You can't skimp if you're a serious player. There's no other way, unless you get lucky and get something on EBay, which can be a risk. I bought this current Kurzweil on eBay, which is exactly the same as my previous model, but I went into the sellers house in Surrey and tried it for 20 minutes with a pair of headphones I took along. 

These midi keyboards that are cheap, are basically crap. Once you can accept that, then you need to up the anti and look at something like a Kawai etc.


----------



## Karma (May 28, 2016)

Baron Greuner said:


> You can't skimp if you're a serious player. There's no other way, unless you get lucky and get something on EBay, which can be a risk. I bought this current Kurzweil on eBay, which is exactly the same as my previous model, but I went into the sellers house in Surrey and tried it for 20 minutes with a pair of headphones I took along.
> 
> These midi keyboards that are cheap, are basically crap. Once you can accept that, then you need to up the anti and look at something like a Kawai etc.


How much are we talking for me to not "skimp"? I mean I can probably push it a little more if need be.


----------



## Baron Greuner (May 29, 2016)

You can check out all these things on Google. Kawai for a fairly luxury keyboard weighted action, and so on.

For example, highly unlikely to find a Kawai on Ebay very often.

Example.

http://www.dawsons.co.uk/kawai-es8-digital-piano

http://www.thomann.de/gb/kawai_mp_7.htm?ref=search_rslt_Kawai_335696_12

It just depends on how good a player you are or want to be. If you're a grade 6 -8 player, you're going to get angry pretty darn fast if you buy these cheappo midi keyboards. If you're committed to playing and wanting to do great things with midi, computers and music, then you may have consider stretching yourself.

I'm sorry to have to break this information to you, but a lot of the people that rush to give others advice about keyboards (with totally good intentions I may add) cannot play for shit. Even if their very existence depended on it. Most of the sample library manufacturers can't either.

It's like lot of these guys that don't actually play anything into a DAW. They use a mouse. They probably don't use a cheap mouse.
If you're going to spend what can be quite significant sums on a say, a piano library because you want the best possible sound, why would you want to try and play that on a load of crap keyboard. People here have thousands and thousands of dollars/pounds/euros invested in sample libraries. Huge sums. And they use a crappo keyboard that cost 500 quid! Does that make any sense to you?

If you're only interested in just getting notes into the DAW via a keyboard, then a second hand one from Ebay etc is the way to go.


----------



## Karma (May 29, 2016)

Baron Greuner said:


> I'm sorry to have to break this information to you, but a lot of the people that rush to give others advice about keyboards (with totally good intentions I may add) cannot play for shit. Even if their very existence depended on it. Most of the sample library manufacturers can't either.


You aren't breaking anything to me! I have no intention of rushing into what I buy. Hence me asking here for advice first! I may push it to £1000. Any more than that I just can't afford sadly.


----------



## Baron Greuner (May 29, 2016)

Just make sure you try it first.


----------



## C-Wave (May 29, 2016)

Definitely the Kawai es8 is a gem with the RHIII key action.. It is over your budget but maybe If you can save the money to get it's definitely worth it. Repeating what the other said make sure you try it first and I might add ask yourself what is the main reason you want to use it for, playing piano virtual instruments? synths? If the answer is piano and you want to get the same touch as your analog piano then Kawai models with RHIII are the closest to get you there.


----------



## Hans Adamson (May 29, 2016)

To be able to provide calibrated responses for the Art Vista pianos, I tested a large number of weighted keyboard controllers and measured their velocity output and resolution. I tested for the lowest and highest velocity that could be generated by the controller, and I tested how many different velocities the controller could generate in between the highest and lowest.

There were enormous differences between keyboards. Best result came from the Kawai 9000, and the old Kurzweil MIDIBOARD. In fact their results were almost identical. These keyboards would send values from 1-127 and they generated the largest number of velocities in between. What the two keyboard controllers have in common is impact sensors instead of sensors for hammer velocity used by the other keyboards I tested.

For a trained piano player it is very important to be able to shape phrases by subtle differences in velocity/loudness. This ability is dependent on how sensitive the keyboard is to difference in played velocity.


----------



## AllanH (May 29, 2016)

I life the Fatar TP40L in my Kurzweil PC3LE8. It's not fully graded; and it's a hair lighter than most fully graded hammer action keyboards. I suggest you check out Fatar's web site to see the different models. Fatar is also used by Native Instruments in ther 88 key controller (as far as I know) as well as Nord. Today, I would look at the Studiologic SL88 as it's fully graded hammer action. Studiologic is the "retail brand" for Fatar. 

Another delightful action is the Kawai MP11 or CA95/97.

I strongly recommend you find a way to play them first.


----------



## AllanH (May 29, 2016)

Pianoman Chuck has a great review of the Studiologic SL88. Make sure you see both, as he didn't fully configure it in his first review, and thus wasn't particularly impressed.

I'm not sure how much weight I'd attach to his review, and I certainly don't agree with all of his assessments.

EDIT: link


----------

