# Some comments on the sound\production ?



## Pzy-Clone (Nov 8, 2009)

Hey .

Im doing this big project, and before going too far in the mix, id like to get some brief feedback from your eminent ears and minds to see if im on the right track or not.

Its a very brief first outtake from a electronic\orchestral hybrid thing...so i left out most of the elctronica parts and just bounced out a orchestra version here, hoping for some comments and opinions on the sound and general feel of things.

Its not mastered at all, and i will not be doing that myself either.
But ill probably do the mix myself, if not some reasonable option comes up.

Thanx again for your time.

http://www.box.net/shared/cqxr2lns9c


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## dinerdog (Nov 9, 2009)

It's sounds excellent right off the bat. : >


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## ChrisAxia (Nov 9, 2009)

Agreed. Sounds great already! Nice work.

~C


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## tommalm (Nov 9, 2009)

Knall tøft!  
Er det noen sjanse for å høre en full mix? 

Det slo meg plutselig at Psy-Clone er fra Norge, og Psy kjenner man jo fra et større norskt band. Ser jo nå at jeg faktisk har sett et par av konsertene dine! :D 
Jeg er en stor tilhenger av ditt tidligere arbeid, har samtlige plater! Hyggelig å se deg her. 

Great work as always!

-tom


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## Pzy-Clone (Nov 9, 2009)

hey all.
kewl, im glad it sounds ok, i always eq thing like crazy, and sometimes i go to far in removing mud, and start cutting things that needs to be there as well.

So this is my template sound now, my approach is always that i clean up all the instruments before actualy composing, so that everything fits nicely into its rigth place while composing, and avoiding a huge cleanup job in the mix. (and save the presets offcourse for future work)

Well, since this will culiminate in a album release, i probably will not post full tracks, they contain lots of electronics, guitar and vox as well, but offcourse ..i will be sure to let everyone know where to get it when its done 

Tom: Fett, but lets keep it in Norwenglish here 
Thanx for that, im always surprised to see how far reaching our previous stuff has been, and run into people that know our "old" work in the most surprising places :D
Nontheless, priciate the comments , and rest assured the will be more coming from that band in the coming time as well . But this is something completely different tho.

Good to see some fellow Norwegians here that have not been kidnapped by EastWest yet 

So thanx for your comments and time, one gets a bit tunnel visioned at times, so its very kewl to have a place like the VI forum to bring you back to reality ever once and again.


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## Shantar (Nov 9, 2009)

This sound very good and well balanced indeed. Just wanted to chime in to wish you good luck with your big project. Sounds awesome.

-Chris


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## Alex W (Nov 9, 2009)

Awesome sound you've got there, very nice work! Fat production / mixing; great feel.


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## Pzy-Clone (Nov 9, 2009)

Hey its raining Norwegians in here.! =o 
thanx for that, not that theres much point in releasing albums no more, but its so much more fun with plastic wrapping :D

And Alex, thanx to you as well...becouse part of the fatness come from your Monster stacc freebie :D 

Luvv it, as soon as i get my spending pants on im gonna get those strings and a new computer i guess lol )


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## Niah (Nov 15, 2009)

Hey pzy,

I don't have much else to add then to agree with the rest of the posters. You have captured a good sound.

btw, and I don't mean to take this thread into OT territory,. buy why do you say there's no pointing in releasing albums anymore? just curious

cheers


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## Pzy-Clone (Nov 15, 2009)

Hei Niah.
Well, why do i say that?
Becouse, unless you are the number one act in your genre, you dont sell much anymore. And when i say "not much" i mean...hardly anything.

From a financial and personal time perspective, it just doesnt make sense anymore, Especially for younger bands and artists without the fanbase to support big profitable live shows.
In many cases, young acts have to PAY to get onboard larger tours, but that still wont result in large sales increases, just more downloads. So theres no way to win.

I dont know if people realize just how dead the music industry has become...
You cannot sustain the level of quality under those conditions, that people are used to and demand ...so you end up loosing, no matter what you do.

Either invest too much money and time, and never make it back, or be careless and fast and sloppy, but never get any sales., becouse no one will pay for a crappy production. 

So its kinda bad....and as a consequence, most if not all...music stores have vanished the last years, the remaining ones will follow soon, or follow the trend and start selling xbox games and dvds mainly.

I know people think " oh these big asshole rockstars have enough cash" and whatnot, but that is really not the case mostly...look at the global sales top 50 albums, and you will be kinda shocked to see what the sales are for anyone else but the 2 top positions. (which are also not very impressive).
No one, even Axl >Rose can sustain a career with sales under 100K, its just not possible on that level. 

Mostly , i think people are naive , and dont know how much you need to sell to make a basic income from it...and as long as everyone keeps stealing by the bucketloads, theres no way around it ...and whenever you take something that is not yours, there are losses for somone else. 
Even something like spotify..is more or less organized theft, as a symbolic gesture you get tossed a few dollars for every 10.000 plays or what ridiculus rates they have.

A few big artists manage to sell alot still, and consequently the industry has been so polarized, and catered towards relasing music towards marked segments with the least download capacity...which are music for kids, and uhm, mature audiences.
So...we can all enjoy a future of endless ketchup songs,American Idols and Garthbrooks on steroids releases :D

You might think idealism and youthfull spite alone would be all the mottivation needed, but in my experience...people loose their values pretty quickly when they cant feed themselves or pay the electrical bills...u know?

Bah, im not really bothered to much, its just...people seem to shrug it off and pretend its not as bad as it really is. Becouse it really is not good at the moment.
So ...yeah becoming a "recording artist" was always a silly kinda gamble, now its just silly...


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## Niah (Nov 15, 2009)

thanks for the post

I was curious to hear from your experience.

cheers


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## Blackster (Nov 15, 2009)

@Pzy-Clone: First, great sound in your snippet! Very cool, indeed! 

Second, regarding to your long post you are absolutely right what the "consumer market" (meaning the end-users or 'b2c") is concerned. Music is loosing value every day and some day it will be for free. But from a musician's view there remains always the question: "who is gonna pay me for my work?". I can tell you for sure, it won't be the consumer market any longer. But I see great and increasing potential in the b2b-market since companies start to recognize how important legal issues are. So many companies got sued these days because of copyright violation and as a result they start to care about that topic. 

So my idea is: Don't make music for b2c anymore but only for b2b purposes. You always get paid and your music generally is used in a product which is determined for the b2c-market anyway. So if you look at this construction from the outside it seems that you are working for the b2c-market but you aren't. Of course, you may ask: who cares anyway? - Nobody, but good work should be paid with good money. I guess we all agree in this point, right?  .... 

I guess a lot of artists make more money licensing their music into commercial projects these days than selling copies of their records. You said it already, the record industry is dead. :shock: 

Sorry for going way off topic.


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## schatzus (Nov 15, 2009)

Great piece..large "Hollywood" feel... (I hope that is still a compliment!)
Really shows your talent.
Nicely done.


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## Pzy-Clone (Nov 15, 2009)

Oh yeash, a hollywood feel is still a big compliment, at least to me :D
thanx. 

Blackster:
yes, and that brings us back to places like these...
Movies, computer games and such, are increasingly lucrative, and typically...to get a song onboard a major or minor motion picture, or even better , a ps3\xbox game..is worth alot more in terms of exposure and profit.

But there is a question of financing...you know..who is gonna pay for the recording and production of music on a hi level, when the investement is so insecure.?
Movies and games have very high standards and can simply pick and choose what they want, almost without exception, the artist will say yes.

You could very well think licencing your stuff east and west will be a good solution, but we are not really talking about the same performing people anymore...
A small or relativly unknown or beginning performer will simply not be able to finance recordings and productions on that level, and why ask some noob for music, when you..from a directors perspective, can ask..say Korn, and most certaintly get a positive response?

And its not a question of just licencing old music, becouse they mostly want or demand exclusive material, but will not pay for its production, offcourse....

So theres simply almost no room for anything new at all, the big established act gets by offcourse , mostly on old glory...but starting out today? yeah good luck with that,.

And in any event, its maybe a bit wishfull to think that the average band or artist is willing or capable of dealing with that marked at all...most musicians i know have a though time just meeting up with all their braincells intact


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## Guy Bacos (Nov 18, 2009)

Great track! Hopefully you could make it longer.


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## Hans Adamson (Nov 18, 2009)

Niah @ Sun Nov 15 said:


> Hey pzy,
> 
> I don't have much else to add then to agree with the rest of the posters. You have captured a good sound.
> 
> ...


I meet a lot of artists and producers here in LA that all say the same thing. The music business is dead when it comes to releasing albums. A new Stevie Wonder doesn't have a chance today. Illegal filesharing is killing the music business. It is not only affecting artists, but anyone who is involved in the production process, and small and big companies alike. I have a feeling many Europeans do not think illegal downloading have any negative effect, and that there is just some big evil entity trying to prevent them from enjoying the music they like for free. In the end one gets what one pays for. That is the stark reality.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 18, 2009)

A friend of mine suggested a tax on internet service, and then you get paid every time your material is downloaded (whether it's music, video, a newspaper, or anything else).

There would be a staggering number of details to work out, but the basic concept makes sense. At least downloading would increase the amount of money you make, not steal sales.

Nice cue, by the way.


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## Pzy-Clone (Nov 18, 2009)

Guy: thanx!...and yeah...it is longer, much longer actually...this was just the first quick test mix i did...just wanted to get some feedback on the mix and such before i start completing the rest of the material. 

Nick:
Taxes you say...? 
I think any internet service provider that does NOT comply with requests to block sites like Pirate Bay, should be taxed...a great part of their biz is the appeal of downloading digital content. So they should be held responsible, .after all...they are the ones that make it possible.

My internet provider in Norway (telenor) actualy just WON a court case in which they refused to block The Pirate Bay, and were taken to court by the industry. And they won...so they are championing the right to download stuff illegaly, even in court. 
That is certaintly something to think about...

But there is another problem, not just dloads...but sites like Youtube and Myspace, where you dont actually dload anything at all----are as big, or even a bigger problem to come...i know alot of people that just listen to music on youtube now, and why not...its all there, and you dont have to dload anything at some dodgy torrent site.

So...if you get your track played alot on the radio...or your video on tv, you can make a small fortune from the publishing payments.

But , say..you have .2 million youtube hits,... and it does not give you a single cent.
That is not right, i did not sign any dotted line saying thousands of people could listen to my music online for free, but still...its all there.

Why are we not paid publishing from online media stations, in the same way as radio? Whats so different, if youtube cannot make enough money from advertisements to afford paying the artists they offer for free on their site, then let them drown... these companies have been handed a free pass to do anything they want for too long. 

It has more or less been officially "declared" that music is now for free, everywhere. And maybe if you score a hit, you can launch a clothing line and sell some fragrance, shave your head and hit some paparazzi guys with umbrellas for the attention :D

I Think Ayn Rand wrote a book about this once.....


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## Niah (Nov 19, 2009)

Pzy-Clone @ Thu Nov 19 said:


> But , say..you have .2 million youtube hits,... and it does not give you a single cent.
> That is not right, i did not sign any dotted line saying thousands of people could listen to my music online for free, but still...its all there.



I hear you.

However you can also become a youtube partner and I think that if you have something like 2 millions views it wouldn't be hard to be one at all. Being a youtube partner means that you earn money with your videos.
There's people out there making a living with silly vlog stuff.

There's also music labels on youtube that are youtube partners and broadcast videos. Like universalmusicgroup and yea they profit from it. Universalmusicgroup I mean.


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## Pzy-Clone (Nov 19, 2009)

No i dont think its immoral to listen to music on youtube, nor do i care if its moral or not. I am simply saying it should be a source of income for the ones that are being weived, regardless of them being a partner or not.
I like youtube, and i check out stuff there myself.

And it makes it even more ironic, that 16 year old kids making silly bellyfat dances and making comments on Britney Spears are being paid by youtube now.

2 million hits on youtube is nothing.
A BIG video can have like +60-80 million plays there...it just shows how much of the marked this has taken control over. They are BIG...
But even with a publishing house like Warner Chappel to represent me , i havent seen a single cent from any of those sites.

I dont want to be a "partner" but i do feel that when you can easely have 500.000 plays of your music online without getting paid..theres a fundamental problem somewhere.
Had this been on radio, i would have been a rich man.
They should not offer music they do not have the rights to offer. Period.

...youtube offcourse, is officially not supporting this...but they dont remove it either, unless the request comes fom one of their big investors\partners.
Did you ever try to ask youtube or myspace to remove and illegal material?
becouse i did, and lemme tell you ... yeah. thats was fun 

Its just that everywhere...people are taking the liberty of offering your stuff for free...and its been going on for so long now, people are starting to assume that its ok.

I know its useless, but as a guy that used to make a living on albums sales mostly, and invested 10+ years of my life into that career already..its somewhat discouraging to see the way our work is being treated at the moment.

The positive side to it, is that you get alot more exposure than the traditional cd sales only...BUT; in the end...whats it good for?
And also...everyone knows and listens to "everything" now...so i actually think its harder to gain a support base and a "following"..becouse music has become such a disposable commodity.


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## Niah (Nov 19, 2009)

Hans Adamson @ Thu Nov 19 said:


> Niah @ Sun Nov 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Hey pzy,
> ...



It's easy to think that if you report back to that French Law thread, which was a different context, it tra
The thing is that I simply don't believe that piracy/illegal sharing of music or any copyright content can be stopped or even minimize it's effects with criminalization. On the contrary it will only contribute to the proliferation of the black market IMO.
So to me it's kinda like the war on drugs, there's this illusion that it can be won with criminalization.
What me and other artists or professionals of the field believe is that we must think of clever ways that artists and people in this business can profit from this download-era. 
The music industry is just like any other business it needs to change according to times. 
Let's say that for some miraculous reason we succeeded to iradicate illegal-sharing and black market. It would still make no point in releasing albums.
I certainly don't see what can we do to reverse this new ipod-culture that buys and listens to music in a completely different way than in the past.
Things have changed dramatically due to the proliferation of the internet, illegal sharing is a consequence of that proliferation. 

I am optimistic that the music industry will change and adapt to the times and will think of more clever ways that can have a more positive effect than crimininalization. That is on the former that I think efforts should be concentrated in.


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## Hans Adamson (Nov 19, 2009)

Niah @ Thu Nov 19 said:


> Hans Adamson @ Thu Nov 19 said:
> 
> 
> > Niah @ Sun Nov 15 said:
> ...


You are making a mistake here. There is no talk about "criminalization". It is already, and has always been criminal. The copyright laws are to protect those who live by creating the intellectual stimulants the rest of humanity consumes. Just like it is illegal to steal the product of someone who works in a car manufacturing plant. Suggestions that they should live off youtube, or by selling t-shirts (which is often suggested by file-sharing proponents in this discussion in Sweden) is just ludicrous. Would film composers accept no pay for their work, but rely on youtube income or selling t-shirts etc.? The only thing needed is the enforcing of existing laws. No "criminalization" needed. Shut down servers that propagate illegal material. Hold the people responsible who profits from it.


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## Pzy-Clone (Nov 19, 2009)

Hans:
yes, i agree 100 percent.

theft is theft, and loss is loss.
No matter how clever you are in finding new avenues of income, that does not remedy the fact that millions upon millions are stealing every day, and there will be no alternative source that can somehow compensate for the enourmous amounts of money that has dissapeared from the biz via illegal dowloads.

its easy, once no one buys a certain product anymore, there is no industry to speak of left. Money does not generate itself by magic, even online.
This optimisms Niah speaks of, has been uttered the last 5 years by many others ...im still waiting to see how the industry " will reform" and adapt to theivery and loss of income.
Should we all launch gambling and porn sites to promote our music?

You can not perhaps, hold the mass consumer responsible, after all..had you left a open container full of cds in the middle of the street, they would no doubt have been gone in a few minutes. it is to be expected.

I agree, you might not eradicate downloads, but why make it easy?

Also, yes---piracy was always there....in eastern europe, and many many other places..some countries dont even have laws against piracy.

Illegal cd pressing plants etc have been around for a long time, the difference is that they were contained within the "poor" markeds, and these are places where sales were low ...hence the need for a pirate marked in the first place.

That does not justify all the people downloading every new album out there today.

We can afford to buy music, so why dont we?

If you wish to have a music industry left in 10 years , not just cd sales, but ANY industry,...you need to buy music, and thats the only solution.
A product that no one is willing to pay for, is not something that will stick around for a long time...

The only real steps will be taken by the movie industry i think...they are going down that same path, dloading movies is the new big thing, and unlike the Music biz, these people have the resources and capacity to take on these sites in the long run i believe.


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## Niah (Nov 19, 2009)

Well I guess that all this time we were talking about differents things.

Essentially I agree with what you guys said, no question about that.

When I refered to "criminalization" I was talking about the type of scare tactics that resulted in people who downloaded copyright material being arrested or having to pay a fine. Now we all know they have committed a crime but how effective are those actions as opposed to actually getting people who are responsible for the creation of sites and other platforms that allow illegal file sharing?
That is mostly the action that I have seen taken upon this issue, actiona taken upon individuals who have downloaded albums instead of being the source who uploads them on their own sites or servers. The pirate bay case was the first I have seen at least in europe to my knowledge that contradicts this and it was a step in the right direction on this regard. But I also question its effectiveness.

I also don't think it's that simple as enforcing the law, as I don't see this working or having any effect. So other methods need to be thought.

Regarding youtube, once again if you are a youtube partner you can file a DCMA report and action is taken upon any copyright material you own.
I am not saying this is ideal I'm just sayin'...


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## Pzy-Clone (Nov 20, 2009)

How about a downloadable album that contains watermarks?
Like the Cinesamples libraries, you get a single simple installer, and unpack the files to your HD with the embedded watermarks.


Very often, the first online versions appear in the wake of a label sending out promo copies to journalists and the press.
At least, im gonna suggest the next time around, that instead of printed promo cds, we should do a memorystick version, with this installer\watermark system.

So if they still insist on leaking the stuff, we can wipe them out .
The main bulk of album sales often happens the 2 first weeks after release.
If one could somehow keep the album off the web untill its in the shops, you would avoid the big download frenzy that always happens when something "new" is released...people are eager and dont wanna wait untill the physical product is available.

But The thing is ..i dont understand why the industry is not coming up with new and more secure systems and formats....could it be, that the companies behind CD production, digital music players etc etc, are also profiting from this...and have no interest in ending it?

Can it be that hard to make a phone or mp3 player, or windows ...not play uncertified or illegal material? Or is it simply that they are not interested in doing this in fear of the reprocussions? I know there will be geeky types that will crack any system, but most people are not technically competent to use advanced tools like this , i believe.


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## Niah (Nov 20, 2009)

pzy-clone I have thought of that

there might be too much interests involved in this that is stopping some effective action


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