# 8Dio Adagio Strings...



## JohnTaylor (Jun 29, 2015)

Wow. Did I ever make an expensive goof. When making the big choice between Hollywood Strings, Cinematic Strings, and CineStrings, I made the most expensive goof of ALL TIME by believing the written hype of 8Dio's Adagio Strings...

I read and read and listened to demos, and all seemed really great. Until I bought the set, and was I and am I disappointed ? You bet I am. Scratchy, out-of-tune, and TONS of audio crap and artifacts throughout. I even hear an iPhone bong on one of the sample sets ( I think it's in the v1.5 violins or violas ) !! Unbelievably crappy sounding and virtually unplayable for such an expensive library.

My wife bought me this for my birthday in 2014, and I have yet to ever really use them on a project due to the mess that they are. I don't DARE tell my wife this situation, as I hinted for months and months beforehand about the greatness that is/was, ADAGIO STRINGS.... I could never use this library for any real project where I need beautiful strings ; I feel like an idiot for every believing the hype and trusting that with 8Dios's slick graphics, website, and ad work. So many artifacts throughout the library - I'm SO disappointed. What a waste.

Needless to say, 8Dio won't be getting anymore of my hard-earned money. I spent a small fortune on this library, having complete faith that it would be incredible. Boy, do I wish I had gone with one of the others... I now rely completely on my Kirk Hunter Diamond and Ruby Libraries for strings... Adagio can't even APPROACH their quality, and KH's libraries are supposed to be mid-range compared to Adagio and the other so-called big boys....

Anyway - just wanted to share my sadness, frustration, and buyer's remorse in choosing 8Dio. If I had heard the iPhone bong present in the samples, I would have stopped dead in my tracks before spending a penny on Adagio.

- JT.


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## givemenoughrope (Jun 30, 2015)

I actually think that when used correctly they are the best strings out there depending on your workflow. it's important to watch the demo videos. The artifacts, tuning, and mostly the internal movement of the samples make them sound great to me. I don't regret buying them. In fact, i wish they would come out with the other volumes faster. 

8dio, SF, LASS, Embertone. All different and all have their place for me. I'd say give them another try. And even if you only use them once in a while they'll still pay for themselves.


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## Wibben (Jun 30, 2015)

Sad to hear such frustration. Been there once or twice myself. I don't own any of the 8dio string libraries, but I have friends who have them and quite enjoy them. Also, there's so very many demos and videos out there of people using them to create extremely beautiful and professional music, so I'm sure all is not lost for you 

When I first bought LA Scoring strings I had a similar reaction to you. I spent all this money and it sounded NOTHING like what I'd heard into the demos. They were raw and dry and have some samples that squeal in an unpleasant way. But after some weeks I would learn that all of that harshness and what I perceived as "horrible sounding" actually added life and sounded great in context and with some subtle processing. Also, me learning more how to actually write for strings helped tremendously too 

If there actually is an iPhone noise in one of the samples, send them a bug report! Also, you could go into the mapping editor and remove the sample, of course  

I hope it works out for you. It can be a really frustrating when expectations clash with reality, but that reality might turn out to be great in the end. Don't give up


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## rayinstirling (Jun 30, 2015)

Just think on this John.
Of all the active members here in VI there are only a handful who's opinion I respect enough to accept, if they say the problem is the tool it probably is the tool.


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## Smikes77 (Jun 30, 2015)

What Wibben said, I think you should stick with them. Your report on them is probably the only one I can think of that reflects a negative view on them. There are libraries that I bought that I was initailly disappointed with, then after a while I realised they sound great because of these little artifacts. It means they are breathing. Not making excuses for an iPhone going off though, as Wibben said, take out the sample for now and send in a bug report.

Keep us in the loop on how you`re getting on with them. In fact, post a short demo of your work and I`m sure the helpful people here will tell you if what you have written is unusable (in terms of sample quality).


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## Guy Rowland (Jun 30, 2015)

rayinstirling said:


> Just think on this John.
> Of all the active members here in VI there are only a handful who's opinion I respect enough to accept, if they say the problem is the tool it probably is the tool.



Hmm.

I can't comment on this library, I have no experience of it. But I do have experience of this phenomenon - some folks getting great results from a library, while I find problem after problem. With other libraries it's the complete opposite - I can't understand what some folks complain about. I understand your interpretation Ray, but I think it's a little simplistic in its conclusion.

We all write and approach libraries differently. Equally important, we all have our own tics - things which might be insurmountable blocks for one person are another's charm. It's part of everyone's learning curve, finding out what clicks with them and what doesn't.

I think the combination of these variances is that either a library inspires us or it frustrates us (with a wide range in between). Sometimes we can work to overcome a library's problems by altering the way we work to better fit into the way the library was designed, otherwise work round the issues or just use it for less material than we'd have liked when we bought it.

After a while we know our own tics, we can start to evaluate a library's reputation in the light of our own experience. For example I f you're hyper-sensitive to tuning, you'll pay particular attention to any negative comments regarding it, whereas if you think it all comes out in the wash you won't. Maybe you find over time that there are forum members here who share your aesthetic. That's different to saying only a few people have the skills to use libraries as a whole, while others don't.


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## jamwerks (Jun 30, 2015)

I haven't heard any artifacts. As said above, just report them and see if they get fixed. Adagio has some very strong points, and can do some things that no other library can imo. So it gets used here as much as Sable and HS.

I do have a major complaint about the user interface though. Spitefire & Orchestral Tools (for example) are constantly adding features to their Kontakt UI, and those updated UI's quickly (weeks) find their way to the other instruments. All of the Agitato instruments have a slightly updated UI with respect to Adagio, but nothing afaik has been done to update Adagio.

So should you have the idea to do a String arrangement using ensemble and divisi sections, you'll have 10 instruments each organized in its own way, with different KS's etc. And should you want to add in some Agitato instuments, those also function differently.

If they's come up with something similar to OT's "Capsule" for example, the workflow would become useable, even with the wealth of articulations available.


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## kfirpr (Jun 30, 2015)

On a side note I bought Agitato violin legato and was impressed with the sound, BUT I noticed jumping in the stereo field when playing with them.. anyone else noticed it?


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## sleepy hollow (Jun 30, 2015)

I'm surprised that one noticed that iphone before. Is there really a cellphone going off in one of the patches??

Maybe it's just some other artifact...


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## fiestared (Jun 30, 2015)

JohnTaylor said:


> Wow. Did I ever make an expensive goof. When making the big choice between Hollywood Strings, Cinematic Strings, and CineStrings, I made the most expensive goof of ALL TIME by believing the written hype of 8Dio's Adagio Strings...
> 
> I read and read and listened to demos, and all seemed really great. Until I bought the set, and was I and am I disappointed ? You bet I am. Scratchy, out-of-tune, and TONS of audio crap and artifacts throughout. I even hear an iPhone bong on one of the sample sets ( I think it's in the v1.5 violins or violas ) !! Unbelievably crappy sounding and virtually unplayable for such an expensive library.
> 
> ...


Hi,
Are you SERIOUS ? You're telling us that they are out of tune, do you realize you're saying very serious accusation about one of the best dev we have. You could say, I don't like it, I can't use it, this lib is not for me etc, no, you're saying "Scratchy, out-of-tune, and TONS of audio crap and artifacts throughout". PROVE what you're saying with examples. Adagio, as all the other libs is not perfect, but KILLING it like that, is something I've never seen in this forum. I imagine to have a sharp jugement like that, you are a seasoned pro who knows what he says ! Some years ago I bought DS from VSL, I was unable to get one correct note from it, it was not DS, but ME, I simply didn't know how to use it, but I never ever wrote something like that on a forum, where you can simply stop all the credibility of a dev. 
F.red


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## kaiyoti (Jun 30, 2015)

I personally think the library sounds terrific. But it tends to fall short when used with one another for spiccato patches. I find that the short articulations are inconsistent across the different sections. I had to do a lot of tweaking to the release tails to one section match the articulations of another. But aside from that the rest of the samples sounds amazing.


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## Christof (Jun 30, 2015)

I don't own or use this library, but I agree with F.red, it is not very smart to point at the developer in such a negative and aggressive way, especially in a public forum.
Each library is like an instrument with a learning curve.


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## rayinstirling (Jun 30, 2015)

Guy Rowland said:


> Hmm.
> 
> I understand your interpretation Ray, but I think it's a little simplistic in its conclusion.


I am but a simple man with eyes to see and ears to hear.


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## SeattleComposer (Jun 30, 2015)

I noticed quite a lot of 8Dio in Junkie XL's template.


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## JohnTaylor (Jun 30, 2015)

rayinstirling said:


> Just think on this John.
> Of all the active members here in VI there are only a handful who's opinion I respect enough to accept, if they say the problem is the tool it probably is the tool.


Well Ray, I'm presuming that with your statement, that I'm not one of those opinions which you respect. 

And that's ok. Just reporting my experience and what I'm hearing with my ears. Didn't think I needed my opinion respected to simply communicate that.


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## Daryl (Jun 30, 2015)

SeattleComposer said:


> I noticed quite a lot of 8Dio in Junkie XL's template.


Does that mean one should buy the library or that one shouldn't? 


JohnTaylor said:


> Just reporting my experience and what I'm hearing with my ears. Didn't think I needed my opinion respected to simply communicate that.


John, you are entitled to your opinions and there is nothing to say that you're wrong. However, I do think that a couple of audio examples would be helpful, particularly to those people who have yet to buy the library.

D


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## Michael K. Bain (Jun 30, 2015)

JohnTaylor said:


> Well Ray, I'm presuming that with your statement, that I'm not one of those opinions which you respect.


Actually, john, I think he was simply supporting you by saying that sometimes the tool is to blame. I don't think he was making any kind of judgement on your opinion, positive or negative.


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## scarred bunny (Jun 30, 2015)

Each library does indeed have its learning curve. A quirky and specialized library like Adagio in particular. I find it kind of has its own design philosophy and way of working, and you have to approach it as such and adjust your expectations accordingly. I think Adagio could use some polish in certain aspects for sure (although I haven't noticed any particular tuning problems or iPhones myself), but by and large I think it's pretty darn good - if you take it for what it is and play to its strengths, there's a lot of really good stuff in there and a lot of expressive possibilities that are hard or impossible to realize with most other libraries. But a generalized do-it-all library it is not, I'm afraid - but I think that's a good thing.

I suppose there's no accounting for taste - Adagio has its sound and design philosophy, and maybe what it aspires to be simply isn't to your liking. Or maybe you think it's just implemented badly, which I could understand. But sometimes problems can be worked around, and maybe the good people of VI-Control can be more helpful if you were to tell us more specifically what problems you're having with the library? Saying it's unbelievably crappy sounding and unplayable doesn't give us much to go on.


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## Markus S (Jun 30, 2015)

Yeah, but again, it is a pity we can't just give these libraries back, if really they do not fit to out style. You are stuck with them forever. Especially the marketing hype may lead to false decisions, I remember getting the ArtVista Malmsjö piano because of the over-hype and hated it. Never will use it, even once. These days I try to avoid getting new libs (partly because of this) and rather learn to use the ones I already have in a better way.


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## Greg (Jun 30, 2015)

Markus S said:


> Yeah, but again, it is a pity we can't just give these libraries back, if really they do not fit to out style. You are stuck with them forever. Especially the marketing hype may lead to false decisions, I remember getting the ArtVista Malmsjö piano because of the over-hype and hated it. Never will use it, even once. These days I try to avoid getting new libs (partly because of this) and rather learn to use the ones I already have in a better way.



Malmsjö sounds really nice when layered with a more beefy piano like Piano in Blue. If you mix it right and avoid phaseyness, it can add that extra 'live' sound or artsy jankiness for lack of better term


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## Greg (Jun 30, 2015)

I agree about Adagio. IMO it doesn't hold up against Cinematic Strings 2 or Albion. As for those of you that think we should sensor ourselves, I disagree. This forum is supposed to be for real opinions from real users and professionals.

Adagietto however, I think is really awesome. Use it a lot.


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## Greg (Jun 30, 2015)

SeattleComposer said:


> I noticed quite a lot of 8Dio in Junkie XL's template.



What _isn't_ in JXL's template?


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## pderbidge (Jun 30, 2015)

Markus S said:


> Yeah, but again, it is a pity we can't just give these libraries back, if really they do not fit to out style. You are stuck with them forever. Especially the marketing hype may lead to false decisions, I remember getting the ArtVista Malmsjö piano because of the over-hype and hated it. Never will use it, even once. These days I try to avoid getting new libs (partly because of this) and rather learn to use the ones I already have in a better way.



I've found 8dio to be a great company to deal with. I had purchased an older library of theirs for about $100 that I was very unhappy with. It was an older phrase based library and it was just unusable for me and not doing what it was touted to do. I decided to let 8dio, in a nice way, know how dissapointed I was with the library and they promptly offered me to exchange it for something else. I was shocked at easy they were to work with. Especially since there was no way for them to verify that I had deleted the old library from my system (which I did). 
I'm not saying they would do the same for Adagio, since that is a flagship product that many users are happy with and I think they knew that the product I purchased was not that great so they were probably more flexible with me on it, plus I wasn't asking for a refund but just an exchange for something different. I think you should first find out how to use Adagio as you might find that the "tuning" issues actually bring realism to the music. I had the same issues, initially, with LASS, and actually found that some of it's tuning actually made things sound more real in a mix. There are still a few patches that are more out of tune that I would like, but luckily they've now provided a way to tune those more to your liking. Anyways, I would suggest you start a dialogue with their support and perhaps they can help you get the most out of the library or work with you on another solution. Who knows? Then again, as Guy points out, sometimes there are just libraries that don't work well for some and great for others, which is definitely a bummer and I've experienced it myself.


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## JohnTaylor (Jun 30, 2015)

fiestared said:


> Hi,
> Are you SERIOUS ? You're telling us that they are out of tune, do you realize you're saying very serious accusation about one of the best dev we have. You could say, I don't like it, I can't use it, this lib is not for me etc, no, you're saying "Scratchy, out-of-tune, and TONS of audio crap and artifacts throughout". PROVE what you're saying with examples. Adagio, as all the other libs is not perfect, but KILLING it like that, is something I've never seen in this forum. I imagine to have a sharp jugement like that, you are a seasoned pro who knows what he says ! Some years ago I bought DS from VSL, I was unable to get one correct note from it, it was not DS, but ME, I simply didn't know how to use it, but I never ever wrote something like that on a forum, where you can simply stop all the credibility of a dev.
> F.red


F.red - I'm not pointing fingers at anyone specifically simply because I'm reporting my negative experiences with my purchase.


sleepy hollow said:


> I'm surprised that one noticed that iphone before. Is there really a cellphone going off in one of the patches??
> 
> Maybe it's just some other artifact...


Yes - there is an iPhone bong on one of the sample maps. I will post ASAP ( it'll be interesting if I'm censored once I upload it... Lots of 8Dio fanboys here ) )


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## Sid Francis (Jun 30, 2015)

I know that reaction to a lib very well, had it myself several times. But since I know people who make wonderful music with adagio, it just may not be the right library for YOU. I don´t think that Colin O´Malley is cheating in his walkthroughs and the strings always sound really fantastic there. Having bought the violas some time ago I found that I never used them just because I always want to use them differently than Colin O´Malley  Sometimes it is just the way of composing that makes a library suitable or unusable for someone. I did not find a single string library among my 10 or so that I could use exclusively because none of these inspires me whilst composing. But I made my own string layers (with a lot of work concerning panorama, EQ, reverb and mix..) and I AM inspired by my own creations: great! By the way : one of the libraries that I mentioned in my first sentence was LASS legato sordino. MAN was I disappointed... My first dedicated and expensive string lib. But now these strings are in ALL of my layers because they add that sense of imperfection and realism, that scratchines that sometimes is needed for the listener to think "wow, real strings " 
Give them a chance! Find the patches that suit you best and don´t hesitate to use healthy doses of EQ. They might find their place in your template.


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## JohnTaylor (Jun 30, 2015)

Greg said:


> I agree about Adagio. IMO it doesn't hold up against Cinematic Strings 2 or Albion. As for those of you that think we should sensor ourselves, I disagree. This forum is supposed to be for real opinions from real users and professionals.
> 
> Adagietto however, I think is really awesome. Use it a lot.


Thanks for the support, Greg ; obviously, I'm not here to try and start any trouble. I REALLY wanted to like and use my expensive 8Dio Adagio Strings. I've never had issues with any of my other libraries even CLOSE to this one. I am a professional player ( former Cirque du Soleil music director ), so my opinion should matter. I give credit and huge praise when and where it's due, and when I spend a relative fortune on what is touted as "one of the top string libraries", I expect to get what I paid for.

Having so many "dirty" artifacts may raise the question, "is it a bug, or is it a feature?", but I maintain in this instance, it's the former. I've heard from other 8Dio Adagio customers that they've had similar experiences. There's just too much "art" in these samples for me to use them in any context where beautiful string ensembles are needed.

I will post MP3s of the infamous iPhone bong ( and other "art"-ifacts ) within the sample of one of the keymaps of Adagio when I can - I do have the proof to back up my claims.

And those of you who are flaming me because I had a negative experience with Adagio when you haven't ( or just haven't the ears to hear what I've heard ), sorry Charlie. This should be a place where, good and bad, experiences can be raised and problems solved. I didn't point any fingers to specific individuals, and I'm sure 8Dio is a fine company in all their many areas of library production. But I hear what I hear, and just like music in general, if it sounds bad, you can't lie or ignore it forever. So please - chill out on the firestorm of replies containing such rage.

Thanks for listening,
JT.


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## ModalRealist (Jun 30, 2015)

I've not used any 8dio products, but I agree with Sid. I have - I'm sure everyone here has - had purchases which I was sorely disappointed with. When that purchase is over a certain financial threshold for the individual, it then also really, really stings. Returns being impossible - and not unreasonably so - the best strategy, I have found, is to think about how one can get some usage out of the product, even if it's not the one you perhaps originally had in mind (viz. Sid's layering LASS LS for scratchiness, vs. his intention of using it as his headlining delicate string sound).

One other related point in all this. It strikes me that, if I really sit down and listen critically to walkthrough videos where the samples are exposed, I find myself getting a pretty good hit-rate on which libraries I do and do not like from amongst those I have bought. In other words, my impression from listening properly to walkthroughs is on par with my actual experience of those libraries. (Equally, FWIW, going back and listening to a couple of Adagio walkthroughs, I personally am not enthused, but we all like different things!) I can't help but wonder if being wrapped up in launch-time hype (and general advertising hype) distracts from - or worse, can perhaps even influence, if care is not taken - one's actual listening of walkthroughs (not to mention demonstrations). So perhaps the wise course is to count to ten before clicking on that latest walkthrough video, and approach it with a determination to hear the samples alone.


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## Saxer (Jun 30, 2015)

i have my problems with the 8dio strings too but this has nothing to do with sound or tuning... i love the sound! i even love some imperfections in the recordings. 
i wish the whole string series (adagio to agitato etc) would be more organized in a single gui. spitfire sable and orchestraltools berlin strings show how to do it!


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## Daryl (Jun 30, 2015)

John, I wouldn't take the comments personally. Some people here have a lot of experience, some have none, some are experts in Strings, some are not, some people like "realism", some people just think its out of tune. Certainly as far as I'm concerned your comments are welcome, and posting the mp3 would be a good step to illuminating the issues. I don't have any 8DIO products, and I don't anticipate that changing, so I can't test anything for you

D


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## reddognoyz (Jun 30, 2015)

Hey John, I would encourage you to be a little less sweeping in your condemnation, although I totally understand your frustration. 
I've also experienced the same disappointment with libraries, and yet there ARE composers making great music with the tools that you and I have found to be crappy. It has a lot to do with context and process. The raw tools, in the hands of someone who doesn't understand how to make them sing, or who's process it counter to the way the tools work, can absolutely sound like crap. I have an engineer who's fond of saying "it ain't the arrow, it's the indian. Apart from the political noncorrectness of that statement, I find it to be 100% correct.


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## Greg (Jun 30, 2015)

Sid Francis said:


> Find the patches that suit you best and don´t hesitate to use healthy doses of EQ. They might find their place in your template.



If you need to use healthy doses of EQ, then someone needs to hire a new engineer. Other libraries sound better out of the box imo.


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## sleepy hollow (Jun 30, 2015)

JohnTaylor said:


> I will post MP3s of the infamous iPhone bong ( and other "art"-ifacts ) within the sample of one of the keymaps of Adagio when I can





Daryl said:


> and posting the mp3 would be a good step to illuminating the issues.


That's the way to go. We can have a listen and take it from there. Who knows, this thread might even turn into something useful and educational (I've seen that before - not sure where, though ).


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## sleepy hollow (Jun 30, 2015)

Greg said:


> If you need to use healthy doses of EQ, then someone needs to hire a new engineer. Other libraries sound better out of the box imo.


I think he was talking about creating self-made string layers.


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## lpuser (Jun 30, 2015)

To be honest, I don´t quite understand how artifacts can be considered as making things sound realistic. I am using HW Strings - which I like a lot - but there are still samples which are sounding incorrect and despite opening a report, they have not been fixed.

The problem is that these artifacts are okay once, but hearing them over and over on the exact same note is not realistic at all, on the contrary, nobody would repeatedly make the same "mistakes". Sure, these notes can be covered up, especially when layering different libraries, but as far as it concerns me, I am with John, wanting libraries clean and without issues (... and realism can always be incorporate by using dedicated effects libraries at a later stage and where required).

Cheers
Tom


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## Consona (Jun 30, 2015)

For example, I bought Adagio Violins because there is solo violin too. But I've discovered I cannot use it most of the time due to the fact that every legato articulation contains somewhat heavy vibrato so any longer phrase sounds really weird and all the sustain articulations sound like different recording, the sound is noticeably different, so I cannot mix sustain samples into the legato performance.


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## Ian Dorsch (Jun 30, 2015)

I love Adagio--it's quirky and rough around the edges for sure, and there is a substantial learning curve, but I don't think there's a better string library out there for the kind of writing I want to do. I still have Cinematic Strings 2 in my template because it fills a few gaps and I still dig the sound for certain things, but more and more Adagio/Agitato are becoming my go-to strings.


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## Ian Dorsch (Jun 30, 2015)

JohnTaylor said:


> I now rely completely on my Kirk Hunter Diamond and Ruby Libraries for strings... Adagio can't even APPROACH their quality, and KH's libraries are supposed to be mid-range compared to Adagio and the other so-called big boys....



Also, surely this is trolling :D


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## JohnTaylor (Jun 30, 2015)

Ian Dorsch said:


> Also, surely this is trolling :D


No its not. It's called "being honest".


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## rayinstirling (Jun 30, 2015)

By posting a non existent website you're being honest?


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## JohnTaylor (Jun 30, 2015)

rayinstirling said:


> By posting a non existent website you're being honest?


No - my old site is down temporarily while I'm redesigning it. Are you being confrontational just for fun, or is there a point to your needless hostility ?


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## guitarman1960 (Jun 30, 2015)

Greg said:


> If you need to use healthy doses of EQ, then someone needs to hire a new engineer. Other libraries sound better out of the box imo.



A good friend of mine has LASS 2, and I spent a few hours trying it out. I was really shocked at how thin, scratchy, and well, 'cheap', it sounded out of the box. Did not like it at all, but add a top quality reverb and layer it with other stuff like Symphobia and Albion, and it adds something really cool. Could not live with it on its own though. Would rather compose with inspiring sounds than spend hours EQ'ing first, especially for something so expensive.


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## pderbidge (Jun 30, 2015)

sleepy hollow said:


> That's the way to go. We can have a listen and take it from there. Who knows, this thread might even turn into something useful and educational (I've seen that before - not sure where, though ).


I second that. It's best to discuss how to resolve certain issues rather than coming out bashing a product and its developer, but I do understand the frustration when spending that kind of money. Although there is no guarantee (if you do that) that you won't get banned for a day and your thread won't get locked - but I think you're safe with 8dio.

But truly, wouldn't you rather learn something that might help you use a product that could improve your compositions rather than just give up on it and never know what it could do for you? But I am new to all of this midi composing etc... so I'm not in a position to really criticize any of my libraries too much until I really understand all their capabilities and how they work, so I digress.

TANGENT: I really wish all of these developers would do what Spectrasonics does by offering a wealth of tutorials on their site that really show you how to use their libraries (not just walk through's). I'll bet if they all did this to the level of Spectroscopic then there would be much higher customer satisfaction among their customers.


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## JohnnyBBad (Jun 30, 2015)

If it's of any consolation John, you're not alone - I'm sure many of us have made purchases that didn't work out.

I remember having a similar issue with Hollywood Strings (Diamond Edition) I tried to use them many times, but they just didn't sound right to me, or sit well with other strings - library, or real. And yet, Spitfire, CineStrings, Project Sam seem to work great to my ears. 

It's worth noting that I work with another composer who absolutely loves H.S. and can't understand why I have this issue! I've also bought Hollywood Brass (Diamond) and I use that all the time, both on its own and in combination with other brass libraries. 

I guess it's all about personal taste and, as some others have mentioned, having the time to 'learn' a new library. Maybe next time, see if the product is available on http://www.try-sound.com/ (www.try-sound.com/) and try before you buy.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 30, 2015)

JohnTaylor said:


> No - my old site is down temporarily while I'm redesigning it. Are you being confrontational just for fun, or is there a point to your needless hostility ?



Speaking of being confrontational John, do you think it's possible that you could have written your post in a more civil manner with a little less hyberole and a less of a damning title while still accomplishing your objective? I absolutely support frank discussion in Sample Talk whether it's positive or negative, but most developers are small companies whose businesses can be somewhat fragile. I'm not a major user of 8Dio but they have a lot of loyal customers here- maybe ask them about shared experiences regarding problems you've had rather than dismissing the product quite so brutally?

I'd hate to have us turn into the "blah blah product sucks!!" forum.

One more thought-in my opinion, it's not the best idea to buy products based on developers claims, demos or even walkthroughs without REALLY taking the temperature of users who actually have bought and are using the product-and that goes double for a fairly expensive product.


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## JohnTaylor (Jun 30, 2015)

This isn't about not knowing how to use the library ; this is about audio artifacts making a library unusable (at least for me).


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## NYC Composer (Jun 30, 2015)

That's not all you wrote- you said they were scratchy, out of tune and totally unusable, which probably comes as a surprise to the many people who probably work around the artifacts and use the product successfully.

However, you cherrypicked my statement and answered none if it. Was the object of your post simply to trash the company, to express your buyer's remorse and warn others not to buy from 8Dio?


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## JohnTaylor (Jun 30, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> Speaking of being confrontational John, do you think it's possible that you could have written your post in a more civil manner with a little less hyberole and a less of a damning title while still accomplishing your objective? I absolutely support frank discussion in Sample Talk whether it's positive or negative, but most developers are small companies whose businesses can be somewhat fragile. I'm not a major user of 8Dio but they have a lot of loyal customers here- maybe ask them about shared experiences regarding problems you've had rather than dismissing the product quite so brutally?
> 
> I'd hate to have us turn into the "blah blah product sucks!!" forum.
> 
> One more thought-in my opinion, it's not the best idea to buy products based on developers claims, demos or even walkthroughs without REALLY taking the temperature of users who actually have bought and are using the product-and that goes double for a fairly expensive product.


I'm outta this forum. You guys all take care.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 30, 2015)

JohnTaylor said:


> I'm outta this forum. You guys all take care.



Hmmm.


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## Ian Dorsch (Jun 30, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> Hmmm.


 I literally laughed out loud.


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## feck (Jun 30, 2015)

I don't know why coming here to slag stuff is worth doing, UNLESS you've already directly contacted the developer, made your claims, and had no response or a less than satisfactory response. What does one expect will happen by randomly posting on a forum? Go straight to the devs with your issues. That is, if you really want a good outcome. If your only motive is to just bitch to bitch, well then, that's what the Report button is for I guess.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jun 30, 2015)

feck said:


> I don't know why coming here to slag stuff is worth doing, UNLESS you've already directly contacted the developer, made your claims, and had no response or a less than satisfactory response. What does one expect will happen by randomly posting on a forum? Go straight to the devs with your issues. That is, if you really want a good outcome. If your only motive is to just bitch to bitch, well then, that's what the Report button is for I guess.


+1 

My opinion. Sample Libraries are not perfect and having here and there issues. But when I would have experienced something major which does not allow me to work with the library I would have contact the developer in first place.


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## guitarman1960 (Jun 30, 2015)

Spectrasonics are a shining example how to have successful company that makes amazing products for an affordable price, does great tutorials, and also offers the facility of licence transfers for secondhand sale, so its win, win win all round, and why they have such a fantastic reputation.
I know it's been done to death on here, but Sample Libraries are the only product I can think of where you can blow hundreds if not thousands of pounds on something which you can't resell if you are not happy with it, or don't want it anymore.
The only way for me when buying anything really expensive is try and find a friend who has it, and give it a good try out.
I've saved myself some VERY expensive mistakes by doing this.


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## catsass (Jun 30, 2015)

An iPhone bong?
When did Apple start manufacturing drug paraphernalia?


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## rgarber (Jun 30, 2015)

Shame John left over this, I didn't think he crossed any boundaries in what he said but I'll also add that I too tend to lean to the Library makers' defense, no matter who. I made the mistake of giving a developer an earful, privately though, and in truth I learned years later I was in the wrong. But the reason I'm posting is I got curious who John Taylor was and found this video on Youtube after trying to get to his website in his signature.



This is a great video and if you love kids, you will love this. I'm guessing John did the soundtrack to all these productions. I'm just sharing this, as a some day wannabe, doing my stuff professionally. It's just fun to watch.

PS... I think it's the same guy.


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## pderbidge (Jun 30, 2015)

rgarber said:


> Shame John left over this, I didn't think he crossed any boundaries in what he said .


I don't think he crossed any boundaries either but he also didn't say anything useful. It is a shame he left cause if he stuck around he would find that the people here actually want to help. I think what makes most of us artists great is our ability to express our emotions but that is also what can cloud or judgement and keep us from moving forward. If that video is the same John than he definitely has talent but no matter how talented we are if we want to continually get better we need to grow a bit of a thick skin and be willing to take the criticism. He was certainly willing to dish it. I hope he comes back though cause it would be a shame that someone of his talent wouldn't be a part of this forum of musicians helping musicians.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 30, 2015)

I don't consider what anyone - myself included - says about Malmjö over-hype at all. It's a really nice sounding piano.

The reason there's more than one library, however, is that people have different opinions.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 30, 2015)

guitarman1960 said:


> A good friend of mine has LASS 2, and I spent a few hours trying it out. I was really shocked at how thin, scratchy, and well, 'cheap', it sounded out of the box. Did not like it at all, but add a top quality reverb and layer it with other stuff like Symphobia and Albion, and it adds something really cool. Could not live with it on its own though. Would rather compose with inspiring sounds than spend hours EQ'ing first, especially for something so expensive.



I don't have LASS 2, I have the original, but of course it sounds thin and scratchy if you don't use reverb! It's recorded in small sub-sections in a studio, of course, and it's not trying to be a huge-sounding string library.

When you set it up right, it sounds detailed rather than scratchy. I don't usually layer it, I just use it alone.

That's my opinion.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 30, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I don't have LASS 2, I have the original, but of course it sounds thin and scratchy if you don't use reverb! It's recorded in small sub-sections in a studio, of course, and it's not trying to be a huge-sounding string library.
> 
> When you set it up right, it sounds detailed rather than scratchy. I don't usually layer it, I just use it alone.
> 
> That's my opinion.




I have said it before and I will say it just one more time again : EVERY library is recorded and edited with a design philosophy, that the developer likes and usually at least one member of the team is a composer, sometimes all. So you as a user have two choices: use it as the developer tells you it was designed to work or try to make it work the way you want it to work. The latter more than likely will just leave you frustrated. You have to be more adaptable than the software because in theory at least, you are smarter.


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## constaneum (Jun 30, 2015)

I have Adagietto but i hardly use it. Its legato patch has some sort of slur sound which I didn't quite like to have it every time when I have that particular note transition. It's good once in a while to have such slur sound for realism though but not definitely not something which I'll want to have, especially each time when i'm dealing with that transition. 

Anyway, I only used it lately for a little game project of a genre which i found it more suitable in that context. I have to agree that not all libraries work out exactly the way you want and might not be suitable in all contexts but at least it has it place for something.

I personally also own LASS & Cinematic Strings. I have my usage preference for these libraries. For instance, LASS for oriental strings as well as middle east strings (its portamento and gliss function with such flexible tweaking really makes me liking this functionality control a lot). I also find LASS easier to be setup/positioned in a traditional orchestral seating due to its thinner sound. Cinematic Strings on the other hand has a place for me to use it for massive lush strings for epic & medieval scores


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## Dave Connor (Jun 30, 2015)

I recently tried to layer Adagio on Hollywood Strings for a string arrangement because the producer wanted a thicker string sound. No matter what I did I couldn't use them because of the volume spikes in the legato transitions (the 1.5 version.) I wondered if there was something specifically wrong with my samples but I don't think so. Maybe we could post some examples and see what people are having trouble with. No one wants to spend that kind of money and not be able to use the library.


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## Markus S (Jun 30, 2015)

pderbidge said:


> I've found 8dio to be a great company to deal with. I had purchased an older library of theirs for about $100 that I was very unhappy with. It was an older phrase based library and it was just unusable for me and not doing what it was touted to do. I decided to let 8dio, in a nice way, know how dissapointed I was with the library and they promptly offered me to exchange it for something else. I was shocked at easy they were to work with. Especially since there was no way for them to verify that I had deleted the old library from my system (which I did).



Yes, this is very fair from them, that's what I ment.


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## Markus S (Jun 30, 2015)

Greg said:


> Malmsjö sounds really nice when layered with a more beefy piano like Piano in Blue. If you mix it right and avoid phaseyness, it can add that extra 'live' sound or artsy jankiness for lack of better term



I know this is totally subjective and I respect the opinion of others of Malmsjö, but I think it really sounds sterile and plastic. I'm using mainly a piano that sounds great to my ears without layering anything that is the Emotional piano from Soundiron.

It just think it is a pity that we do not have the right to make a mistake by buying something we *thought *was nice, but when played we can't connect to emotionally. Some companies have demo patches you can download and play (mayce 8dio do, I don't know), I think that is a great compromise for everyone. Playing yourself and listening to demos or walkthroughs is just not the same thing.


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## rayinstirling (Jun 30, 2015)

Was this thread really about 8dio?


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## SymphonicSamples (Jun 30, 2015)

Adagio is a unique beast capable of amazing results . I mostly use Adagio and Hollywood Strings , each can produce magic in their own individual ways . I guess the most important question is what style of music were you intending on writing with Adagio John ? Like all libraries they have their own strengths . There are things I can achieve with Adagio that are more realistic than HS , but HS can also tackle different passages more realistically than Adagio can . As they say , Horse for courses  You really need to give the library some time and find what approach works best for you . Even Adagietto , in it's cut-down form is very powerful . And in my own experience with libraries I've bought , there was one in particular that really just didn't do it for me and wished I didn't purchase initially . Well let's just say 6 months later I love it . I know whatever I purchase from the developers here at VI , I'll always find some magic in it .


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## scarred bunny (Jul 1, 2015)

Dave Connor said:


> I recently tried to layer Adagio on Hollywood Strings for a string arrangement because the producer wanted a thicker string sound. No matter what I did I couldn't use them because of the volume spikes in the legato transitions (the 1.5 version.) I wondered if there was something specifically wrong with my samples but I don't think so. Maybe we could post some examples and see what people are having trouble with. No one wants to spend that kind of money and not be able to use the library.



I'd be curious to hear a sound sample. Maybe someone here can help figuring out a way around it. Maybe there's hope for this thread yet 

I've also often found the legato transitions to be uneven and problematic (seems like a common problem in many libraries unfortunately). Sometimes I could get around it by trying different patches until I find something that works. I usually take the frankenline approach to programming, especially with Adagio - every line gets chopped up into bits so there's a few notes being played by this patch, a few notes by another patch, and so on. Tweak controllers and note overlaps as necessary. Takes a bit of time but I don't mind so much. 

But there are some situations where it just doesn't work for me; the biggest problem I've had with Adagio is that every legato patch starts with a sustain crossfade sample with a very slow attack, so it's damn near impossible to play a short note followed by a legato transition. If the first note isn't given enough time to 'fade in' properly, there'll be a volume mismatch between it and the transition. Occasionally I could hide it by triggering the note ahead of time and fading it in manually with CC1/11, or fiddling with controllers to dip the volume during the transition, but that tends to sound pretty unnatural - can get away with it if it's hidden sufficiently deep in an arrangement I suppose. I've also found some patches (in the violas at least) where the transitions always seem mismatched with the sustain crossfade sample even if it's given its sweet time, but seem to work fine with the dynamic bowing styles on subsequent notes in a phrase.

I think there's some good stuff in Adagio, and I really like the basic sound of it (sounds pretty raw to my ears, which I like - but I can see why others would describe it as scratchy, nasty or whatever). Round robin legato is cool, and a rare feature. Good collection of shorts, and I like the general design idea with many patches with different legato/playing styles. I do think the programming could use some polishing though. In particular, I would love having a) attack control on the sus crossfade samples, b) the ability to play one of the dynamic bowings on the first note of a phrase.


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## rayinstirling (Jul 1, 2015)

Matt,
He isn't listening because the whole purpose of this was to be "for" a certain library rather than "against" another. 
My input here was not to defend any particular library but rather, highlight the stupidity of making sweeping statements while showing no willingness to demonstrate the alleged major problems.
In my experience, being a professional Musical Director/Keyboardist/Orchestrator does not automatically make one an expert in the use of virtual instrumentation.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 1, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I don't have LASS 2, I have the original, but of course it sounds thin and scratchy if you don't use reverb! It's recorded in small sub-sections in a studio, of course, and it's not trying to be a huge-sounding string library.
> 
> When you set it up right, it sounds detailed rather than scratchy. I don't usually layer it, I just use it alone.
> 
> That's my opinion.



I'm new to LASS, and I agree. I eq it a little and put a nice reverb on it, and it sounds detailed to my ears. It's also damn versatile- i love the divisi, and the First Chairs turned out to be a real revelation. If they had a non vibrato option (I don't believe they do) they would be most of what I need in solo strings. They're very agile and versatile.

I also have Cinematic Strings 2 and HS Gold, both of which are lush out of the box. If my string parts don't sound good, it ain't the samples. For tha matter, I sold a lot of pieces with EWQLSO as my entire orchestra.


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## Will Blackburn (Jul 1, 2015)

Markus S said:


> I know this is totally subjective and I respect the opinion of others of Malmsjö, but I think it really sounds sterile and plastic. I'm using mainly a piano that sounds great to my ears without layering anything that is the Emotional piano from Soundiron.
> 
> It just think it is a pity that we do not have the right to make a mistake by buying something we *thought *was nice, but when played we can't connect to emotionally. Some companies have demo patches you can download and play (mayce 8dio do, I don't know), I think that is a great compromise for everyone. Playing yourself and listening to demos or walkthroughs is just not the same thing.



I love Emo Piano as well despite the god awful hiss in the high end of every sample. Someone tried to convince me that's its character. Err Noooo. More like a recording chain error! It's just so playable though and that bottom end is so sweet, I wish every kontakt dev would use its playability as reference!


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## jamwerks (Jul 1, 2015)

JohnTaylor said:


> Scratchy, out-of-tune, and TONS of audio crap and artifacts throughout.


That's a pretty severe accusation for which you must imo show proof.


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## GP_Hawk (Jul 1, 2015)

jamwerks said:


> That's a pretty severe accusation for which you must imo show proof.


Any number of people here who own it would surely know. I want to hear the iphone bong...


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## Ed (Jul 1, 2015)

JohnTaylor said:


> Wow. Did I ever make an expensive goof. When making the big choice between Hollywood Strings, Cinematic Strings, and CineStrings, I made the most expensive goof of ALL TIME by believing the written hype of 8Dio's Adagio Strings...
> 
> I read and read and listened to demos, and all seemed really great. Until I bought the set, and was I and am I disappointed ? You bet I am. Scratchy, out-of-tune, and TONS of audio crap and artifacts throughout. I even hear an iPhone bong on one of the sample sets ( I think it's in the v1.5 violins or violas ) !! Unbelievably crappy sounding and virtually unplayable for such an expensive library.



I sort of sympathise with this feeling, but it's really not fair to the library and newcomers that don't know any better should know why.

Adagio isn't the library I would choose in all instances and does have some issues you mentioned, but 8dio's approach is unique and when used in the right way it does things no other library can do and sounds better and more live than any other library. It is not a traditional library, and you have to change the way you think about using it. If you use it like one, it will be frustrating. IMO it is best to have Adagio alongside a main traditional library.

I love CS2 and I also urge you to look into that especially since it's such a great price now. Beautiful silky strings (also check out the EQ setting Alex suggests in one of the CS2 videos, makes a big difference). Adagio is IMO generally more gritty than it is silky and LSO sounding. But CS2 doesn't do most of what Adagio can do, but if you use both together it yields the best of both worlds. My favorite parts of Adagio is the crunchy short notes than really sound like they bounce off the strings, I haven't heard anything like it in another library (though the violins are the weakest point, but this may have changed in the addon libraries they've released since) And the amazing arc patches which is such a simple concept, it's basically just cresendo patches we've had for ages but giving you lots of them and actually making them useful for once. Some of them are just stunning putting my fingers on the keys, like the soft viola sordinos. Nothing else like it.



I urge you to stick with it and discover it's strengths rather than write it off. THAT really would be a waste.


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## rgarber (Jul 1, 2015)

Okay, so wait, Ed, but not specifically you... you guys who do classical stuff, you don't use one patch, as you say, for a whole track? When I do my big band/rock stuff, I'm using one instrument patch per track. It's all on that one sample. You guys don't do it that way?

For instance, just finished a lite-rock tune, only a handful of tracks. One for the bass, one for the guitar, and one for the organ... that's it, just one sample per track. You wrote you break it down even to just do one crescendo, you're having to load up a whole patch, just for that?

Not being critical, some day I'd like to try my hand at including some strings for ballads and such. I just thought you'all did like I do, one sample per track. Where I'm coming from is I used to do graphics and the lighting is an important element. Generally I try to keep the lighting consistent so the object looks like it all comes from the same place and time (for instance, shadows). So I'd be concern that using for say the violin part, different libraries would create a problem in say ambience?

Maybe I just need to take a Classical Sample Course 101 instead of asking this question here but it never occurred to me why the orchestra stuff costs so much and maybe that's the reason why?

Just asking


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## Ian Dorsch (Jul 1, 2015)

Between Adagio/Agitato, CS2 and the occasional dollop of Albion and EWQLSO, it's common for me to end up with 40+ tracks in my string folder: 5 tracks for each section of CS2, 5 tracks of Adagio shorts, 5 tracks of Adagio sustains, 4 tracks of Agitato Grandiose legato, whatever specific Adagio legatos and dynamic bowings are appropriate for the piece, maybe some measured trems, some tracks of string FX, etc etc.

Even when using just CS2, you pretty much have to have 1 track per section if you want to write with any degree of expression and authenticity.


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## KEnK (Jul 1, 2015)

rgarber said:


> ...you guys who do classical stuff, you don't use one patch, as you say, for a whole track? When I do my big band/rock stuff, I'm using one instrument patch per track. It's all on that one sample. You guys don't do it that way?
> 
> ...So I'd be concern that using for say the violin part, different libraries would create a problem in say ambience?


If you're trying to make it sound 'convincing', as apposed to a keyboard string patch,
you need to think of what's really happening w/ strings.
A full string string section is V1, V2, Vla, C, B.
5 sections each panned differently and w/ a different amount of players.
Even w/ a decent "string section" sample, it will most often sound 'synthy'.

As far as layering samples from different libraries-
You do have to consider the varying ambiances and mic distances,
but if you know what you're doing, it works out.

People layer samples (ex, a legato at the same time as a staccato)
because they are looking for a very specific sound
they don't get from a single articulation.
or they may use a dry lib like LASS to add definition
to a huge baked in hall sound from another lib.

Hope that's somewhat helpful

k


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 1, 2015)

> ↑
> A good friend of mine has LASS 2, and I spent a few hours trying it out. I was really shocked at how thin, scratchy, and well, 'cheap', it sounded out of the box. Did not like it at all, but add a top quality reverb and layer it with other stuff like Symphobia and Albion, and it adds something really cool. Could not live with it on its own though. Would rather compose with inspiring sounds than spend hours EQ'ing first, especially for something so expensive.
> I don't have LASS 2, I have the original, but of course it sounds thin and scratchy if you don't use reverb! It's recorded in small sub-sections in a studio, of course, and it's not trying to be a huge-sounding string library.
> 
> ...



The other thing I should have added about LASS is that it's going to sound intense - which would translate to "scratchy" if you aren't aware of how it's intended to work - if you have CC1 all the way up! It uses CC1 to switch between the velocity layers and CC11 for volume.

Well, it gets louder when you use CC1 too, so you use both CCs to control the dynamics and the sound.

Point being, most of the time you don't want CC1 all the way up - any more than a string player would dig in hard every note.


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## Zhao Shen (Jul 1, 2015)

Honestly I don't think we should be saying "lol be quiet you don't know anything, Adagio is amazing you're just using it wrong." Everyone deserves to be heard, and maybe the OP has a legitimate problem. I know the feeling of being sorely disappointed by a big purchase. On the other hand, he's making some pretty harsh claims without any evidence... Maybe some real audio files of the library would help, but otherwise I think we have to take his complaints with a grain of salt.


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## rgarber (Jul 1, 2015)

Thanks Ian and KEnK, that was very informative for me. It explains a few things I have read here in the forums but I didn't understand the way the orchestration libraries were used. I'm like you guys in that, in a way, I see partly what we do as simulation. Using my lite-rock band illustration again, I used instruments solely from an early rock time period just because I wanted the music to sound like that period. But with my Big Band stuff, I have just about every big band library you can have except Straight Ahead's upcoming one. It's been suggested by developers to just use one library (we just had this discussion on Audiofazine), and I would if I could, but like you guys are implying (or that's how I'm taking it) not all libraries are equal.


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## guitarman1960 (Jul 1, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> The other thing I should have added about LASS is that it's going to sound intense - which would translate to "scratchy" if you aren't aware of how it's intended to work - if you have CC1 all the way up! It uses CC1 to switch between the velocity layers and CC11 for volume.
> 
> Well, it gets louder when you use CC1 too, so you use both CCs to control the dynamics and the sound.
> 
> Point being, most of the time you don't want CC1 all the way up - any more than a string player would dig in hard every note.



Thanks Nick, I never really spent enough time trying to learn how to use it properly. I guess I'm much more used to stuff like Symphobia where you just load a patch and it sounds amazing. I know a lot of pro's use LASS and love it, so will have a more detailed look when I can, next time I'm at my friends studio. Those were my initial impressions.


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## Ed (Jul 1, 2015)

rgarber said:


> Okay, so wait, Ed, but not specifically you... you guys who do classical stuff, you don't use one patch, as you say, for a whole track? When I do my big band/rock stuff, I'm using one instrument patch per track. It's all on that one sample. You guys don't do it that way?
> 
> For instance, just finished a lite-rock tune, only a handful of tracks. One for the bass, one for the guitar, and one for the organ... that's it, just one sample per track. You wrote you break it down even to just do one crescendo, you're having to load up a whole patch, just for that?
> 
> ... So I'd be concern that using for say the violin part, different libraries would create a problem in say ambience?



I think it sounds like you need to know a little history. *I didn't plan on writing so much but I just had some stimulants and I'm really talented at procrastinating!*

Back when I first got into this stuff in 2002 it was perfectly normal to use various different libraries for different articulations that all had different microphone choices and different spaces they recorded in. Even if you had enough money for something "complete" and the top Rolls Royce of orchestra samples such as Miroslav Orchestra, which would set you back I think it was something like ten to 20 thosuand dollars_.(... or maybe it was 4000 to $5000.. I'm sure someone remembers)_ there was still plenty you lacked and could use in other libraries. Early on when it was all new to me I bought Gigasampler 64 and Advanced Orchestra because I read an interview with Bill Brown that said he used it. Stupid me, he did use it, but also used a ton of other samples and most of the ones I liked were not contained within Advanced Orchestra.

A bit of Roland, a bit of Advanced Orchestra, a bit of Miroslav if you could have afforded the ridiculous prices. So for lush paddy string sustains you might use some old Roland strings, for the top lines maybe Miroslav layered with Advanced Orchestra, or maybe you'd use Advanced Orchestra for trems and Miroslav for pizzicato and maybe you'd use the really cool string staccs from the Prosonus Orchestra.

Back then it was a little different since mic positions weren't really a thing until Tobias Marberger's "G-Town" series which made everyone suddenly fall in love with ambient recordings. Then Project SAM came out with SAM Horns which I think was directly inspired by G-Town and how everyone loved the idea. Unlike G-Town SAM Horns provided 3 different mic positions, but the quality that far mics brought to sampled mockups was clear to everyone. Then you had the big VSL vs EW battle. Around this time there was really only these two giants because Project SAM had only Horns and was releacing in moduels. So as far as next gen orchestras go it was really either VSL or EW. There was Sonic Implants however that only had one mixed mic position and I can't recall if that came out at the same time or before the big interest into different mic distances.

With VSL being (probably) the driest samples ever produced was mostly down to the belief they needed this dry recording, and their special custom room, for their performance tools (eg. legato interval sampling) to work. d EW which didn't have that depth of recording in terms of articulation, but they did have ambient recordings and 3 mic positions. This was before people realised you could still do the same performance stuff VSL can do in an ambient space, so most people believed it was a choice between the depth of VSL sacrificing the "depth" the ambient space bring. (_Some still stubbornly stick to this notion even now, it seems mostly those who have invested heavily in VSL_.) Back then most realised the value in mixing the two, just like they always have. VSL woodwinds seemed to fair the best in such an environment, whereas the strings did not. Many people raved about trying to get the woodwinds to mix with other more ambient libraries such as Sonic Implants and EW. EW woodwinds by comparison to VSL woodwinds was like comparing a sample to a live recording.

As I say, people believed it was choice between that detail VSL's performance techniques could bring, and an ambient space. Everyone agreed that the ambient recordings sounded better, but some valued that more than others. Some just wanted 100% consistency and chose to go exclusively down the EW path. It was accepted that EW (and ambient recordings) was either usable totally out of the box, or required little effort to "sound" good. Whereas they knew that intentionally dry recordings such as VSL required a lot more effort and knowledge. To varying degrees people believed that such effort was worth it, where even if you did the best you could the question was to what extent something like VSL strings sounded better than something like EW Strings. Some instruments faired better, as I said.

Now we have so many different choices for sample libraries, but mixing libraries still makes sense. However, I think some people forget that we use to go to far greater lengths to do so. Today mixing libraries is more likley to be using a string library from one company and a brass library from another, which I've seen many people over the last few years still say they don't want to do and don't "understand" how it will sound good. Back relatively recently it was perfectly normal to use various different libraries for individual different articulations for your strings. You're asking how they can sound okay even if it comes from different libraries that involve different players, engineering, mixing, microphones, etc. Well, unless you are really trying to match a particularly "clean" recording such as a piece of music recorded only with 100% orchestra with minimal processing, it just doesn't make that much of a difference.

Back with the VSL and EW arguments "reverb" software was a hot topic. Someone would post some track and people would always ask what reverb they used, especially if it was good. I remember Simon Ravn had a hardware Lexicon and people (I certainly did) drooled over it's slushy loveliness it made things. It was MUCH MUCH harder to mix libraries together back then when so many reverbs were generally metallic and harsh. To me it was like knowing you could have access to the same recordings Thomas Newman does but instead of a lush reverb you're sending it through crap so it can never sound as good. Today we actually get beautiful recorded filmscore-standard samples but where beautiful reverbs are easy to find. There are really great hardware reverbs today but the standards of the cheapest ones, and software reverbs, have been really raised to the point where the question of what reverb someone is using is hardly asked anymore. Back 15 years ago and reverb made a HUUUGE difference to the quality of your mockup, not so much today.

So getting a good reverb today is relatively cheap and simple to use and the quality of most samples is obviously extremely high, along with control over their mic positions. Some people seem to think that mixing two orchestra recordings recorded by different companies will result in this weird unfocused sound, but unless you have serious OCD ears, most of the time it sounds perfectly fine. You may need to throw a bit of reverb over some of it, but that wash usually enough for most rough edges caused by this.

As to the question about using one patch for strings. Going by your message I am going to assume you're quite new to sampled acoustic instruments outside maybe some simple stuff in some rock music. I'm also going to assume when you say "classical" you're just talking about the orchestra. When people here usually use the word classical they are almost always referring to a certain recording style/playing style (etc) for classical (and more traditional style concert) music. You *can *use one sample for all your strings and it be perfectly fine, but it really depends on what you're trying to do. It can be totally unnecessary to use all of Adagios detailed legato intervals when sustains work perfectly well, or even better, for the part you're playing. But if you are writing a certain kind of string passage then those legato choices are invaluable. If you want pizzicato, if you want staccato, if you want sustains, trems, trills, etc in the same piece you're going to need to load up all those different patches. Even if you had a keyswitch patch if you wanted to have it playing at the same time then you'd need to load up more than one. Real strings also don't play like pads. Violins play different things to cellos, sometimes they play the same, sometimes they create different parts of the chords. You'll need to load up some more patches and more MIDI tracks if you want to do that stuff. And this is before we get into different KINDS of sustain samples, or layering different libraries. This is why you can end up with a huge number of orchestra samples on different MIDI tracks.

Back in 2002 with SAM Horns, but before VSL, we did actually have "interval" patches. But they were something like "a 3rd UP" or "a 5th UP". If you wanted to use them you'd need to load up separate patches. So you'd have one track for sustains then one for the "3rd up". What VSL did was record every interval within an octave you'd ever play, which would be impossible to manage in the traditional way, and with some programming and some crafty editing trigger those "intervals" to be played automatically when you played. In other words today what might have taken multiple MIDI tracks in the past can all be done on one. Key Switching was seen as quite a step forward in this sense, because it allowed people to use one patch and MIDI track whereas before they'd need a separate patch and track for what now could be switched to by a press of a key.

This doesn't feel like an end, but I think I answered everything... Ok back to work I guess!


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## DMarr82 (Jul 1, 2015)

I am not by any stretch a fanboy of 8Dio (tho I do have a couple of their products which I like), but something strikes me as funny in the OP



JohnTaylor said:


> Until I bought the set, and was I and am I disappointed ?
> 
> My wife bought me this for my birthday in 2014,



Hmmmm.....


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## rgarber (Jul 1, 2015)

Hi Ed, thanks for the lengthy reply, I had to read it twice! 

Oh, I'm not new to this stuff, not at all. I remember the days of Miraslov (I heard $5000), Gigastudio, my first dive was into Turtlebeach's Pinnacle Project Studio. Even go so far back as having owned a Sequential Circuits Six Traks. But I've always been on the jazz side of things - I didn't follow orchestral sampling at all. Lite-rock is something I just picked up only this year (I'm as they say, evolving?). When someone asks me what is my favorite rock band, I tell them Glenn Miller. I'm not that old, but where better to hear the Sax? It's what I play, it's what I love, I got five of them (all pro or semi-pro) but I only get to play one at a time!* 

But eventually I do want to learn to do classical or soundtrack orchestrations. And not just of this era but bygone eras like the stuff you hear in the old movies. Love that stuff. East West had some kind of introductory promotion going on and all I looked to see if it was orchestral and bought it on impulse hoping someday I follow up the idea.

What I read that took me aback is when I saw multiple patches per track. My libraries all use keyswitching and I just assumed when I bought the orchestra library (EastWest's Hollywood Diamond (came on a hard disk??)), it did too.

My rig is decent but I don't know if it can handle 40 tracks!

*Here's an interesting side-note, for me at least. What got me into sampling was a desire to create music I wanted to hear that was thought to be long gone and just history. Big bands were so much on the decline back then except for static filled old recordings remastered, I never thought I'd see the comeback we've seen. Still, I like arranging so I stayed with it. And spent a ton of money!


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## AmbientMile (Jul 1, 2015)

This topic started off on a sour note, but I LOVE where it is going now. Thanks, Ed, I too am hoping that someday I will be able to figure out this scoring stuff. Like Rgarber, I am not new to the technology. Hell, I started with a Fender Suitcase, Yamaha CS5 and a Korg Polysix! But I also, like Rgarber, have mostly the "one track per instrument" mindset and really appreciate your explanation. Even though I have been playing for over 45 years, since joining VI, I feel like that little kid sitting at the piano during his first lesson, feet can't even reach the pedals, staring at the keyboard wondering why some are white and some are black.  I have learned a TON from this forum!

As far as libraries are concerned, I can absolutely confirm that for me at least, learning the library is key. I have had MANY occasions where I have picked up a new library because of the demos, and I can't make it do anything close. It can be really frustrating. But if I stick with it and learn how it works, it can be glorious. Perfect example for me is OrangeTree Samples. Amazing demos, but it took me awhile to get the hang of them (Evolution Steel and Stratosphere). I wasn't sure that I liked them, but now I know how to work them and I use them all the time.


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## michaelv (Jul 1, 2015)

I read through this thread carefully and with interest, chiefly because I just bought 8Dio's Agitato Legato Arpeggio library. I feel that people have a right to express whatever opinion they like about a product, no matter how confrontational or aggressive it might appear, so long as it doesn't cross the line into slander, defamation etc. As customers, we have a right to express disappointment, and alert people to possible misleading advertising. My take on what I bought is this …...

Their ostinato violin patches only play one bar figures, and 8Dio didn't even bother to loop these figures, so the user has to constantly retrigger the phrase, or tediously copy and paste it for however long the desired length might be. I find that extraordinary.Not only that, a one bar phrase is extremely fatiguing on the ear, and soon renders it fake to the ear. This appears to contradict their claims that they went deep, to achieve realism. Sorry, that simply doesn't hold up for me. NI's Action Strings, though temperamental , at least looped all its patterns, and they are more varied. But between the two I think they would be very useful, so all is not lost.

The sound of the ostinato violins is adequate, but executed with a small ensemble. It's not "epic" ,but that can be remedied, if one wants that kind of big sound.Actually ,this might work in the user's favour, as this small sound can add definition to the phrasing. But ( and this is odd ) some of the phrases are not precise. Some phrases snatch in places, and are not rhythmically accurate. Fine. But imagine, now, with only one bar to play with and you want to repeat that for a while, in the key that this offending phrase occupies. You're finished. This dodgy timing will leap out, like a sore first - violinist's thumb, having played three hours of Steve Reich. Sloppy. I know, in defence, hundreds of takes and hours are involved, and one or two will slip through the net. See? I'm being fair.

In addition, the "played arpeggio" patches are tricky to use, and not convincing. In terms of the competition ( Orchestral Tools, Action Stings, etc ) this library does not hold up well at all regarding quality and thoroughness. OK, it's "cheap", but I wish they wouldn't make claims that do not resemble the reality. In fact, 8Dio never even mention that the ostinato patches don't loop and are only one bar in length.If they have, I've missed it, and pre-emptively apologise. I find that rather misleading, and I'm resorting to alerting potential customers to this, because I cannot find anywhere else to do so. There's no library out there, right now, that offers deep, customisable strings articulations of this nature, but I'm sure it will come. My money is on Orchestral Tools to do it first.

I've bought a couple of 8Dio's products and tried most of their range in other studios. All I can say is the packaging is very pretty. I would never purchase anything from them again, based on my current experience; and I'm being very restrained in my criticism.I think the OP had a right to express his opinion. I regret to add that I perceive 8Dio as a company that thrives on what appears to be advertising hyperbole.

BTW, I have to add that LASS has ended up being an absolute enduring evergreen. The individual desks and smaller units of sound really distinguish this product. Of course, there is no, one library that does it all.

If we're talking about string libraries in general, I've never heard anything as breathtakingly magical as the Cinematic Strings sordino patches. Until recently, VSL held that trophy, but then I tried the CS ones. It was like being Bernard Herrmann, in a box. I'm not outside the box yet.


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## benmrx (Jul 1, 2015)

Michaelv, I was under the impression from their walk thru's that the ostinato builder was indeed one bar phrases, but that there were round robins recorded. So, yes, you have to keep retriggering the phrase, but the use of round robins would help alleviate the 'loop' feeling, and in the end be more believable than say a static 4bar phrase that looped itself. 

Is that not the case?


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## WhiteNoiz (Jul 2, 2015)

Care to post an example of these phrases? From michaelv's post I understand that some bowings are quite a bit off-tempo to the point of becoming glaringly obvious. So, when triggered, it could still break the flow (even after another repetition).

Also, to get back to the OP, upon seeing the release of Adagio, my immediate thought was:
Does the name mean it can only do slow stuff?

It was said that the point of the library was expression but that wasn't exactly correlated to the playable speeds you can get with the library. It was implied by the name though. (And the fact that they've released, pretty much, 3 different collections to address faster lines [Adagio, Agitato/Grandiose, Arpeggio...])

Also, judging by what I hear, there seems to be a lot of slurring (with an almost portamento quality to it) which for me just sounds wrong in most concepts; or at least for my perception/taste.

I think I've even read some posts here saying that "it's better for that tempo and below".

While they sound pretty good on the demos, I generally find the exposed tracks to sound pretty bad and/or have improper playing/articulation (And whether an example is meant to showcase the transitions, that doesn't also mean that those transitions/styles work for the particular line)

And I'm not saying that it can't be good for particular moods/styles/etc. I find that "expression" is not really a term that showcases the purpose of the library clearly.

It seems to be rather quirky overall.

I find this pretty bad (for me), for example: 

But I can also see it working.

My point is, all the hints point to it being focused on expressive stuff with the implication that that also means slow phrases (playing/transitions), but that's not clearly indicated. And it clearly isn't an all-purpose, all-rounder library.

Here's some more sentiments similar to that of the OP's:
http://themeforest.net/forums/thread/vsl-no-good/69640
_
(Mini rant)


Finally, the other thing I have to give credit to VSL for – is having a working and fully functional product *out of the box*. Advertising from sample companies these days just makes me laugh. They promise the world, they put out epic videos and posters of their products and more often then not – the products are released broken and unfinished. A great example of this is 8Dio’s Adagio, and Requiem. They are fantastic sample libraries with a great sound, but the scripting leaves a lot to be desired, especially in Adagio. Their 1.1 ‘update’ shouldn’t even be an update, it should have been included from the start. These sample libraries that sound great out of the box, often don’t work properly out of the box. Again, I’ll just go back to ProjectSAM, who just make products that work. Spitfire Audio operate on exactly the same philosophy.


(Mini rant over)_

---

_On the contrary – when it comes to midi orchestration – good results from end users are the best examples. Demos on websites are incredibly misleading. 8Dio put processing all over their demo tracks (to help sell the product).

---

It may be a little off topic, but I have the same issues as well with 8dio’s stuff, and how they demo their products. No other sample library company gives me the level of buyers remorse that their samples do.

I have their 1928 Steinway and it is on v1.5 or something, and still totally unplayable. Every single piano patch other than their main “full piano” patch has audible audio pops and glitches on the attack of every single note, and the piano is pretty much unplayable (for me) no matter how I adjust the velocity sensitivity curve. This doesn’t even touch how I feel about how it sounds, but that might just be my personal preferences. What I can say is that it sounds nothing like their demos of it do right out of the box.

Anyway, rant over.

---

Yeah, I’ve heard some bad things about the 1928 Steinway, which is sad, because I do like the sound in the demos quite a bit.

---

A lot of it depends on how much time and effort you can be bothered to put in doing things to get the sound as natural as possible (or as stylised and pleasant sounding as possible)

Using LA strings at a mates studio did blow me away though, very nice sounds – not quite realistic but pretty close.

---_

And, from my experience, some sentiments are shared, so you wonder where tastes end and some kind of objectivity comes in. For example, I also love how the VSL woodwinds sound. You can say this proves nothing. Fine. But I'm going by my gut here. I can't really retionalise it. I don't know. Maybe that's the point?

Although it seems to be geared towards stuff going in this direction...
https://mega.nz/#!9BIRkSBa!G8kVRg2UNqoZ5Gc_OUVNokvBdKOSpJqLdlxTF1I2gFo
...I somehow can't shake the feeling that I'd have issues re-creating such lines. (Which are expressive, but still have quite focused/tight bowings/transitions). In fact, I find most transitions sloppy/unfocused/improper. On the other hand, I find that Adagio is the only library that could come close to that... Weird, right? So close and yet so far, haha.

I still feel like something is inherently wrong with the library/approach though (and the way it's presented). I can't really reach an all-inclusive conclusion but I wanted to leave my thoughts here for others to consider. I'd love to be proven wrong, though.


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## Ian Dorsch (Jul 2, 2015)

michaelv said:


> If we're talking about string libraries in general, I've never heard anything as breathtakingly magical as the Cinematic Strings sordino patches. Until recently, VSL held that trophy, but then I tried the CS ones. It was like being Bernard Herrmann, in a box. I'm not outside the box yet.



Are you maybe talking about the LASS sordinos? Cinematic Strings (unfortunately) does not include sordino patches--although if they did I would purchase them so fast my wallet wouldn't even know what hit it.


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## Ed (Jul 2, 2015)

I don't understand the complaint about 8dios 1928 piano. It's awesome, i have only noticed an issue with dynamic levels which was mostly fixed because it was really bad in the original. I don't get clicks. It's my favorite piano!


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## TintoL (Jul 2, 2015)

I agree with Ed. The 1928 piano is a very good library. It's a unique sound and I have no problems with it. If we want to find a problem we will find it no matter what.


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## maraskandi (Jul 2, 2015)

The Malmsjö is gorgeous to play, inspiring to diddle with, feels a lot like a real instrument. I don't agree at all that it sounds like plastic. Btw, does Hans Zimmer's use of it in Inceptions Time? (because if memory serves me right, he said on the forum that it was the Gigastudio Malmsjö in the actual track). Perhaps not the most exposed of examples though, but still, there must be other instances. TJ uses it a lot, or did, I am sure many others too. I mean fair enough if one doesn't like the sound, granted........

BUT! Not adjusting expectations is the big thing that causes upsets in many situations in life.

The ArtVista Malmsjö is an instrument from 1894 and bears the hallmarks of an instrument that old, but retains the beauty and character of such a vintage specimen. Scandinavian pianos from more than 50 years ago are something special and I can attest to that with my own Andreas Christensen Danish upright pianette, totally unique resonance and beauty, like a real instrument as opposed to a beefy modern concert instrument, which works great in a big hall, but isn't always the most musically collaborative of instruments to play on! My goodness, I must record the pianette properly, and I wonder if it retains some of its character if I sample it...

So it follows that such instruments are not intended for every type of playing. The Malmsjö character is well suited for certain things. However, if you want to play more powerful sounding styles then a more beefy modern instrument like the ArtVista Virtual Grand 2 (which is a 1960 Steinway Hamburg Model B) would be better, or a younger instrument from any of the other sample devs, take your picks gentlemen.

Speaking of 8dio, the same I think is true of the 1928 Legacy Steinway, it's great for certain things, but I wouldn't play high-end Romantic-era classical repertoire on it and get the desired power and dynamic effect as if I were on a modern dynamic powerful Steinway, Bechstein, Bösendorfer Shigeru Kawai, Fazioli etc etc, whether sampled or or in the "real" dimension.


Also yes, 8dio Adagio series, highly unusual and maybe if it was all I had on my drives, I too would feel it didn't respond as I expected, but at the same time, I love the possibilities of the Dynamic Bowing patches, the shorts have great character and in the end you have to make allowances for these sorts of things.

It's all too easy to get disappointed when your expectations are not met. But this ain't no simple business dealing with technology, sampling, etc nothing is perfect so can definitely sympathise with the OP, and too bad if he took things really personally.

Then again, this forum is not for the faint of heart, my goodness haha, I thoroughly expect to be not agreed with and to trample on a few toes. All in a days work, and it's nothing compared to the idiots who aren't happy with themselves and act out aggressively towards others in real life, but that's a different story entirely!

Gonna go see how that works out today!

Don't forget folks, you are in YOUR universe, not anyone else's, so do as you will and be kind to those around you when possible.


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## Hans Adamson (Jul 2, 2015)

maraskandi said:


> Btw, does Hans Zimmer's use of it in Inceptions Time?


Hello Maraskandi,

Yes, you are correct. Hans Zimmer has written on Vi-Control that the Art Vista Malmsjö is the piano used in the piece "Time" from the movie Inception.


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## scarred bunny (Jul 2, 2015)

Some misc thoughts and philosophical ramblings:

That Wojciech Kilar stuff (that WhiteNoiz linked to) is the sort of thing that I think Adagio could do quite well. I agree that viola demo didn't sound fantastic throughout though, which surprised me a bit for an official product demo (still, I respect 8Dio for putting some exposed barebones demos up). Some parts sound fine to my ears, but there are some awkward transitions and whatnot there - which is, sadly, quite reflective of my own limited experience working with the library. I wonder if the demo couldn't have been improved by some extra tweaking; when I come across a transition that doesn't quite work, I've usually (not always, but often) found that if I play that segment with another one of the legato patches or another bowing style, I can get something that works in context. The portamento type slurs are always difficult though. And there's also the question of whether it's worth spending all that extra time working around a library's quirks... and there are quite a few quirks here, so I do understand where the criticism comes from. But in the situations where it does work, it works quite beautifully to my ears. And I guess, a lot of times the quirks and flaws will go unnoticed if they're in an arrangement - exposed parts are a lot more sensitive and always difficult to do with samples, I find.

(Side note: I often try using the 'natural' bowing style in the legato patches. As I understood it, this will trigger simply the transition sample followed by a short note on the target pitch, thus bypassing the potential volume mismatch between the transition sample and pre/post transition notes with other bowing styles. The problem of course is that the 'natural' bowing is typically a very very short note, so it isn't always applicable - but it can work pretty well when it does.)

Regarding the approach, I think there are differing schools of thought on how to design libraries. Much like the debate on wet vs. dry samples; ignoring shades of gray for a moment, one gives you 'a sound' which is either what you want or not, and the other gives you maximum flexibility. But if 'that sound' is what you want, a dry sample with added reverb to approximate it will probably not sound as convincing. Likewise, some libraries give you a fairly flat and lifeless performance out of the box and others have more 'expression', for lack of better words, baked into the samples. One gives you 'a sound', the other gives you flexibility. Both involve compromises, so I guess it's a matter of what you're more comfortable compromising with. I suspect a prerecorded dynamic bowing (like the ones in Adagio) will always sound more natural than a regular crossfaded sustained sample trying to approximate the same thing, and I guess this kind of thinking was the driving force behind the library's design. The caveat, of course, is that the prerecorded dynamic bowing has to actually be 'right' for the given musical moment; if it isn't, you'll be fighting the sample and it'll probably never sound quite right. Whereas a crossfaded sample is much easier to bend to your will and can probably do a good or at least passable job in many more situations. (I don't know anything about sample editing, but I suspect that if you add dynamic performances and room ambience together, this must also make it much more difficult to get the transition samples consistently smooth. I don't envy the programmer's job.)

To my mind all libraries exist somewhere on this sort of specialist/generalist spectrum, and I try to pick my tools accordingly for any given job. If I'm trying to do something and I happen to have a specialized tool that does that particular thing well, I'll use it. If it's outside of this niche, I try to pick a different tool instead. Sometimes I'll start with the tool and work backwards, writing for the samples as they say - I find limitations can be liberating and helps me focus sometimes, but I know many people hate doing this (Adagio is probably not for them). Adagio, flaws and all, does have a place in my toolbox at least, but I can certainly see why its approach would not be appreciated by everyone. And while I don't think the concept is inherently wrong, I do think its realization is a little sloppy at times. I'm not sure to what degree this can be corrected in post-release updates, and I don't know 8Dio's track record in this regard though.

I'm trying hard not to name names or invoke comparisons with other companies here  and I guess I could talk at more length about other gripes I've had with Adagio specifically, but I think I've blathered enough for now already. I still think there's some good stuff in there that I get some decent use from here and there, but it's not my go-to library, and I wouldn't really recommend anyone buy it expecting a go-to library. Quirky niche product? Sure, if you like its sound and are prepared to put in some work. All-rounder, or instant gratification? No, not really.


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## Markus S (Jul 2, 2015)

maraskandi said:


> The Malmsjö is gorgeous to play, inspiring to diddle with, feels a lot like a real instrument. I don't agree at all that it sounds like plastic. Btw, does Hans Zimmer's use of it in Inceptions Time? (because if memory serves me right, he said on the forum that it was the Gigastudio Malmsjö in the actual track). Perhaps not the most exposed of examples though, but still, there must be other instances. TJ uses it a lot, or did, I am sure many others too.



Yeah well, it's because of that type of marketing hype that I bought the thing in the first place - to my regret.

I can only say that it's not because this or that person uses specific stuff, that this is the right stuff for you. Find your own tools you are comfortable to work with and that sound good to your own ears. The best way is to try them and we can't do this most of the times.


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## Dave Connor (Jul 2, 2015)

Here are the volume spikes I was referring to in Adagio Violins. They are from the track I mentioned where I wanted to layer them on Hollywood Strings. They occur regularly and I wasn't able to solve the issue.

I should add that I think Colin and Troels are two enormously talented fellows and I haven't a thing in the world against them. My concerns are scientific in nature and not personal in the least.

https://soundcloud.com/dave-connor-composer/adagio-vol-spikes


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## NYC Composer (Jul 2, 2015)

Markus S said:


> Yeah well, it's because of that type of marketing hype that I bought the thing in the first place - to my regret.
> 
> I can only say that it's not because this or that person uses specific stuff, that this is the right stuff for you. Find your own tools you are comfortable to work with and that sound good to your own ears. The best way is to try them and we can't do this most of the times.



Actually, I think the Malmsjo has experienced very little marketing hype and a lot of anecdotal user love. I understand when HZ says he uses it and loves it, that's a powerful incentive for people, but the forums have been full of user love for that product for years. One size doesn't fit all, but I am more easily swayed by user love than marketing hype. I have the VG 2 from the same company and it is my go to piano.


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## Markus S (Jul 2, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> Actually, I think the Malmsjo has experienced very little marketing hype and a lot of anecdotal user love. I understand when HZ says he uses it and loves it, that's a powerful incentive for people, but the forums have been full of user love for that product for years. One size doesn't fit all, but I am more easily swayed by user love than marketing hype. I have the VG 2 from the same company and it is my go to piano.



No problem with that, call it "user hype" then - personally I don't like the piano at all. What I am saying is that it's a pity we can't give those wrong picks back. I asked them politely and they said no, I asked if I could sell it instead and they said no. Have to admit I didn't find them pleasant to deal with.


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## Mike Marino (Jul 2, 2015)

Dave Connor: "Here are the volume spikes I was referring to in Adagio Violins."

Dave, what keyswitches are you using in your example?


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## NYC Composer (Jul 2, 2015)

Markus S said:


> No problem with that, call it "user hype" then - personally I don't like the piano at all. What I am saying is that it's a pity we can't give those wrong picks back. I asked them politely and they said no, I asked if I could sell it instead and they said no. Have to admit I didn't find them pleasant to deal with.



I sympathize. it's definitely an issue.

Was Hans willing to give you store credit as an exchange, or was it just a closed door? As I said, I like the VG2 very much, and wouldn't mind pickings up the vibes.


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## Dave Connor (Jul 2, 2015)

Mike Marino said:


> Dave Connor: "Here are the volume spikes I was referring to in Adagio Violins."
> 
> Dave, what keyswitches are you using in your example?


Since most my notes were longer than the Medium or Long Arcs I used the Sus Xfade patch a lot. However I used the Mediums and Longs where appropriate. In making this demo I used ONLY the Sus Xfade but did try the other two which had the identical behavior except maybe a little worse in that they start to drop off in volume naturally so the transition is even louder relatively.


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## Markus S (Jul 2, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> I sympathize. it's definitely an issue.
> 
> Was Hans willing to give you store credit as an exchange, or was it just a closed door? As I said, I like the VG2 very much, and wouldn't mind pickings up the vibes.



Thanks! Nope, no credit. I explained I couldn't connect to the lib emotionally and I won't ever use it - said though I respected the work, but no discussion.

It did prevent me from buying other libs, because I was getting more cautious. I think it's in the developer interest to offer some kind of - satisfied or money back guarantee - on individual basis.


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## guitarman1960 (Jul 2, 2015)

Markus S said:


> Thanks! Nope, no credit. I explained I couldn't connect to the lib emotionally and I won't ever use it - said though I respected the work, but no discussion.
> 
> It did prevent me from buying other libs, because I was getting more cautious. I think it's in the developer interest to offer some kind of - satisfied or money back guarantee - on individual basis.



Although I think the subscription model as Adobe have enforced it with no option to purchase outright is a travesty that deserves to die a slow and painful death, a well thought out subscription option would be a great way to try out expensive sample libraries, and then if say after a three month subscription you don't like the product you could just not renew your subscription. If you do like it, then either keep the subscription going or purchase outright. That would be a fair system all round in my view.
At the moment the consumer shoulders a massive risk buying expensive libraries that forbid resale. This would get round that problem to some degree. Have to admit to being tempted by the EastWest subscription.


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## Mike Marino (Jul 2, 2015)

Dave Connor said:


> Since most my notes were longer than the Medium or Long Arcs I used the Sus Xfade patch a lot. However I used the Mediums and Longs where appropriate. In making this demo I used ONLY the Sus Xfade but did try the other two which had the identical behavior except maybe a little worse in that they start to drop off in volume naturally so the transition is even louder relatively.


Dave, by chance did you try the Legato Master patch that was a part of the v1.5 instruments update? Just curious if that (or any of the other multi-legato patches) might yield a better result for you.


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## Dave Connor (Jul 2, 2015)

Mike Marino said:


> Dave, by chance did you try the Legato Master patch that was a part of the v1.5 instruments update? Just curious if that (or any of the other multi-legato patches) might yield a better result for you.


No I didn't actually. I believe those are the INSTINCT on my demo. I tried other patches as well. The obvious problem being that the ARC samples are often desirable because of the sampled behavior as opposed to mod-wheel control (i.e. not being able to use the samples you intentionally purchased the library for.) I will check the MASTER patch in any case. Adagio has a sound quality that is just right for certain things so it's agonizing not being able to rely on them.


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## maraskandi (Jul 2, 2015)

Markus S said:


> No problem with that, call it "user hype" then - personally I don't like the piano at all. What I am saying is that it's a pity we can't give those wrong picks back.


Just to clarify, that the part in my previous from "BUT, adjusting expectations etc etc" was not directed at you Markus, more generally as to the discussion. 

I totally sympathise and understand, it's not for everyone, and we are all entitled to our tastes, the world would be pretty samey if we all agreed with everything and liked and did things the same.

I must admit, I am half Swedish and half Danish, so I kinda gotta like a Swedish piano, plus it's my main instrument, so... my obsessions shape my taste somewhat.


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## michaelv (Jul 2, 2015)

It's not revolutionary. In fact, it's pants. I will never buy another 8Dio product after purchasing this misleading, poorly implemented product. Here's what I had to observe on an adjacent thread: http://vi-control.net/community/index.php?threads/big-regret-buying-8dio-adagio-strings.46351/page-5

8 Dio make pretty-looking lib


Ian Dorsch said:


> Are you maybe talking about the LASS sordinos? Cinematic Strings (unfortunately) does not include sordino patches--although if they did I would purchase them so fast my wallet wouldn't even know what hit it.





Ian Dorsch said:


> Are you maybe talking about the LASS sordinos? Cinematic Strings (unfortunately) does not include sordino patches--although if they did I would purchase them so fast my wallet wouldn't even know what hit it.




Hello, Ian. No I'm referring to Cinematic Strings. They released a sordino update for the whole string section. I played them in a studio I work in and they are transcendentally magical, trust me. I've not heard any sample library render sordino better than this since VSL . Speaking personally, you understand. I haven't played 8Dio's, but the demo convinced me they are not comparable to CS.


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## tack (Jul 2, 2015)

michaelv said:


> No I'm referring to Cinematic Strings. They released a sordino update for the whole string section. I played them in a studio I work in and they are transcendentally magical, trust me.


Are you sure? When was this? I own CS2 and haven't seen any update about this. Their website says nothing about sordino patches, and Google isn't indicating this is a thing.


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## Ian Dorsch (Jul 2, 2015)

It's not a thing. There are no sordinos for Cinematic Strings.

edit: maybe you are thinking of Cinestrings, Berlin Strings, or Mural? Lots of libraries have released nice-sounding sords, but Cinematic Strings is not one of them.


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## Mike Marino (Jul 2, 2015)

Dave Connor said:


> No I didn't actually. I believe those are the INSTINCT on my demo. I tried other patches as well. The obvious problem being that the ARC samples are often desirable because of the sampled behavior as opposed to mod-wheel control (i.e. not being able to use the samples you intentionally purchased the library for.) I will check the MASTER patch in any case. Adagio has a sound quality that is just right for certain things so it's agonizing not being able to rely on them.


Got it, and I can totally understand your frustration. I know in one of Colin's videos he references that he usually plays everything in using the Sus XFade patch, then will go back through and re-assign the articulation types (moving around amongst the Sus XFade, Arcs, and Dynamic Bowing patches). At least that was my understanding....but perhaps maybe you've already worked your way through that resulting in unsatisfactory results.


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## Hans Adamson (Jul 2, 2015)

Markus S said:


> I asked them politely and they said no, I asked if I could sell it instead and they said no. Have to admit I didn't find them pleasant to deal with.


After having read this thread I am compelled to answer. 

What Markus S fails to disclose in his postings is that he agreed to that he could not re-sell, or return the library once it was downloaded. It is impossible for a presumptive customer even to put the Art Vista Malmsjö in the basket, before agreeing to these terms. 

Regarding the "unpleasantness" he alledges in dealing with us: All matters that could have some legal implication are handled by Amanda, our in-house lawyer. Anyone that have ever had anything to do with her knows that she is incapable of being other than kind and correct, and in this case her only unpleasant act was to hold Markus to a deal he had already agreed to.


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## Dave Connor (Jul 2, 2015)

Mike Marino said:


> Got it, and I can totally understand your frustration. I know in one of Colin's videos he references that he usually plays everything in using the Sus XFade patch, then will go back through and re-assign the articulation types (moving around amongst the Sus XFade, Arcs, and Dynamic Bowing patches). At least that was my understanding....but perhaps maybe you've already worked your way through that resulting in unsatisfactory results.


I tried everything yes. When I was making stems of each string section I knew I wouldn't be able to deliver with an issue like that. I remember thinking it was not a professional level product.


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## michaelv (Jul 2, 2015)

Ian Dorsch said:


> It's not a thing. There are no sordinos for Cinematic Strings.
> 
> edit: maybe you are thinking of Cinestrings, Berlin Strings, or Mural? Lots of libraries have released nice-sounding sords, but Cinematic Strings is not one of them.



It's possible. Cinestrings sounds very close in name to Cinematic Strings, but I don't think so.

To clarify: I do not own this library as yet, but have played it in a studio I was hired to work in. This sometimes happens, and I usually end up buying the library, when I've used it enough to convince me it's worth purchasing.

In the case of 8Dio,I bought it on a whim, unfortunately. I used these sordinos in Cinematic Strings, I'm certain. Next time I'm in that studio I'll have to ask the guys about this. It sounds rather weird. I'll try and get more info and a screenshot…..


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## Zhao Shen (Jul 2, 2015)

michaelv said:


> It's possible. Cinestrings sounds very close in name to Cinematic Strings, but I don't think so.
> 
> To clarify: I do not own this library as yet, but have played it in a studio I was hired to work in. This sometimes happens, and I usually end up buying the library, when I've used it enough to convince me it's worth purchasing.
> 
> In the case of 8Dio,I bought it on a whim, unfortunately. I used these sordinos in Cinematic Strings, I'm certain. Next time I'm in that studio I'll have to ask the guys about this. It sounds rather weird. I'll try and get more info and a screenshot…..



I own both Cinematic Strings and CineStrings and don't think either has sordino  Please do enlighten me if I'm wrong, because I would LOVE to be wrong. I'm all but certain that CS2 has no sordino though.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 2, 2015)

Hans Adamson said:


> After having read this thread I am compelled to answer.
> 
> What Markus S fails to disclose in his postings is that he agreed to that he could not re-sell, or return the library once it was downloaded. It is impossible for a presumptive customer even to put the Art Vista Malmsjö in the basket, before agreeing to these terms.
> 
> Regarding the "unpleasantness" he alledges in dealing with us: All matters that could have some legal implication are handled by Amanda, our in-house lawyer. Anyone that have ever had anything to do with her knows that she is incapable of being other than kind and correct, and in this case her only unpleasant act was to hold Markus to a deal he had already agreed to.




I cannot imagine Amanda ever being unpleasant to anyone.


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## Ian Dorsch (Jul 2, 2015)

michaelv said:


> In the case of 8Dio,I bought it on a whim, unfortunately. I used these sordinos in Cinematic Strings, I'm certain. Next time I'm in that studio I'll have to ask the guys about this. It sounds rather weird. I'll try and get more info and a screenshot…..



I've been a customer and user of Cinematic Strings since v1, and I can promise you with absolutely 100% certainty that there are no publicly released Cinematic Strings sordinos. There have been some wistful discussions about the possibility, but that is sadly all we have. 



Zhao Shen said:


> I own both Cinematic Strings and CineStrings and don't think either has sordino  Please do enlighten me if I'm wrong, because I would LOVE to be wrong.



You're right about Cinestrings. My mistake. NO SORDINOS FOR ANYONE


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## ryst (Jul 2, 2015)

I read all 6 pages so far and unless I missed something, I don't see anywhere where the OP actually reached out to 8dio to address his concerns and ask for assistance. Call me old fashioned but that's the first thing I'd do. Go to the developer to share your feedback and disappointment. Especially if you made a big purchase.


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## Markus S (Jul 2, 2015)

Hans Adamson said:


> After having read this thread I am compelled to answer.
> 
> What Markus S fails to disclose in his postings is that he agreed to that he could not re-sell, or return the library once it was downloaded. It is impossible for a presumptive customer even to put the Art Vista Malmsjö in the basket, before agreeing to these terms.



Well, I guess I should have said that I perceive very formal replies in the sense of "no, you agreed to those terms" as unpleasant. Some companies are more forthcoming and flexible, even if the agreement does not force them to.


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## Markus S (Jul 2, 2015)

maraskandi said:


> Just to clarify, that the part in my previous from "BUT, adjusting expectations etc etc" was not directed at you Markus, more generally as to the discussion.
> 
> I totally sympathise and understand, it's not for everyone, and we are all entitled to our tastes, the world would be pretty samey if we all agreed with everything and liked and did things the same.
> 
> I must admit, I am half Swedish and half Danish, so I kinda gotta like a Swedish piano, plus it's my main instrument, so... my obsessions shape my taste somewhat.



Sure, thanks for clarifying!


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## Markus S (Jul 2, 2015)

guitarman1960 said:


> Although I think the subscription model as Adobe have enforced it with no option to purchase outright is a travesty that deserves to die a slow and painful death, a well thought out subscription option would be a great way to try out expensive sample libraries, and then if say after a three month subscription you don't like the product you could just not renew your subscription. If you do like it, then either keep the subscription going or purchase outright. That would be a fair system all round in my view.
> At the moment the consumer shoulders a massive risk buying expensive libraries that forbid resale. This would get round that problem to some degree. Have to admit to being tempted by the EastWest subscription.



That sounds like a good idea, IF there is an option to buy a full license. Personally I really like the idea of demo patches. For a piano it could be just an octava, for a huge string library maybe just a patch. It gives a better feel for the library if you can hear and play it in your environment.


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## The Darris (Jul 3, 2015)

Read the EULAs. Some are better than others and some are not. When a user says that they can't connect "emotionally" to a VST but can't determine that by hearing it in the demos tells me that they aren't really listening attentively. I am not saying demos reveal everything bad and good about a library but I also know that developers, at least the one's I've worked with, don't dictate to the demo composers how to write. So, one could assume that the demo composer is simply using the tool in their own way and making it work. I don't own the Malmsjö VST by Art Vista but I can say that the demos say what it can do in the hands of a professional and a user who may be fairly proficient at midi programming. I haven't come across any piano vst that has 100% worked the way a real piano does but I spend time to figure it out. This goes for all libraries. Just because it doesn't sound the way you thought, doesn't mean it is an inferior product. It means you have to work a little harder and listen a little differently to get the sound you want. This is what makes demo composers like Sasha Knorr and Andy Blaney really good. They know how to program. Buyer's remorse sucks, but it is your fault and your's alone. Taking time to blame a developer for the fact that you don't know how to operate the product to its full potential is a ridiculous argument. 

Now, if you want to talk EULA's that's a different debate all together. Everyone's says something slightly different. We, unfortunately, live in a world where the second something digital goes on sale, people are trying to hack it so they can get it for free. Trust me, I deal with pirates nearly everyday on a group that I help to manage on facebook. We have members trying to acquire and share stolen software. So, the problem lies with the users who purchase these....typically (as far as I know). If developers offered a not satisfied/money back policy, I'm pretty sure many would exploit this and keep the software. That is the downside on Kontakt based libraries, even with a serial, it isn't really protected and the developers lose out on sales. Now, we get into the territory of libraries for the Full version of Kontakt and free version. The free version utilizes a license which (in most cases) the developers typically allow a 1 time license transfer. However, we won't see this with the Full version only libraries as they don't use the Native Instrument's encoding process making it a very vulnerable library to pirates. What I have seen in a lot of EULA's is, "Licenses can't be transferred to another entity without written consent of developer x." Again, this gives power to the developers to help account for their licenses and control some sort of distribution as much as they can. I might just be preaching to the choir on how this works, and I might be screwing some of it up, but the bottom line is that the EULA is a legal document that you agree to when you purchase a library. If you aren't reading these and fully understanding them then it is your fault. Plain and simple.

My suggestion to the OP, JohnTaylor, is to sit back and relax on the strings he bought. They are capable of doing a lot but they are designed to do certain things extremely well. Use them in conjunction with other libraries to achieve the sound you want but keep in mind, it will take time. I don't know your level of programming and mixing midi but it is a progressive skill set that builds over time. Keep writing and producing and most importantly, learn everything you can about your DAW and the tools you have so you can use them to your advantage, every time.

Best of luck,

Chris


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## SymphonicSamples (Jul 3, 2015)

The Darris said:


> My suggestion to the OP, JohnTaylor, is to sit back and relax on the strings he bought. They are capable of doing a lot but they are designed to do certain things extremely well. Use them in conjunction with other libraries to achieve the sound you want but keep in mind, it will take time. I don't know your level of programming and mixing midi but it is a progressive skill set that builds over time. Keep writing and producing and most importantly, learn everything you can about your DAW and the tools you have so you can use them to your advantage, every time.



Wise words indeed Chris . And as pointed out by Ray earlier in the thread .



rayinstirling said:


> In my experience, being a professional Musical Director/Keyboardist/Orchestrator does not automatically make one an expert in the use of virtual instrumentation.



It's certainly a skill set which develops over time and each library requires their own unique approach to get the best results . As Chris said , give it some time . Without knowing what type of string writing you are using them for , experiment with the library, for example layering Stacs with Sustains for certain passage work which is what I did in the piece "Wondering Star" listed in my signature below , 100% Adagietto Strings , covering most standard strings passage work throughout .


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## NYC Composer (Jul 3, 2015)

There are some developers who might have said "I'll take a leap of faith and allow you to exchange it ONCE for a product of equal or lesser value" regardless of the EULA. It's obviously at the discretion of the developer, but it might have been another way to handle it. I'm not criticizing Hans, but I'm pretty sure there are some outstanding smaller devs on this forum who might have gone that route. Just sayin'.

No demo that Andy Blaney (as one example) ever does is going to convince me to buy anything. Sorry Andy- you're too good.


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## guitarman1960 (Jul 3, 2015)

It's a difficult question, and I don't really want to go down the rabbit hole of EULA's forbidding resale again, as I started a massive quite controversial thread about that a while ago. Developers are in a very tough spot regarding piracy, but some of them do seem to want it all ways, and legitimate paying customers shoulder all the burden. Developers want to use Kontakt even though it's security is next to worthless because it's a popular platform and cheaper than developing their own standalone product that has greater security. I have to applaud East West for developing a system that as far as I know has not been cracked! I also applaud their new subscription service, as long as you can still opt to buy outright if you wish. I still don't agree with them forbidding resale, but at least I can now try out their libraries for an affordable monthly price, which is great.
It's very difficult to tell from great demo videos just how well you are going to be able to use a library. As mentioned above a lot of the demos are done by highly skilled people. It's kind of a double edged sword, because I could watch a demo video of a Fender Strat by Yngwie Malmsteen, and then go and buy the same Strat. It would then be totally ridiculous for me to complain to Fender that when I play it, it doesn't sound anything like Malmsteen, and I'm not talking about dexterity, but the sound. So in some ways it's a bit of a non argument to complain that you can't make a sample library sound like a professional demo. A lot of library demos include material that is played in by hand, and all the subtle timing and dynamics of that can be a big part of the great sound. e.g. http://8dio.com/blog/adagio-tutorial-epic-ostinatos/ If you quantise everything or draw the notes in that is never going to sound as good, so are your playing skills as good as the guy doing the demo? These things all count.


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## williemyers (Jul 3, 2015)

guitarman1960 said:


> A good friend of mine has LASS 2, and I spent a few hours trying it out. I was really shocked at how thin, scratchy, and well, 'cheap', it sounded out of the box. Did not like it at all, but add a top quality reverb and layer it with other stuff like Symphobia and Albion, and it adds something really cool. Could not live with it on its own though. Would rather compose with inspiring sounds than spend hours EQ'ing first, especially for something so expensive.


+1


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## Carles (Jul 3, 2015)

The Darris said:


> the EULA is a legal document that you agree to when you purchase a library. If you aren't reading these and fully understanding them then it is your fault. Plain and simple.


Correct. The legal side of the discussion is clear.

Now let’s touch a bit the ethical side too, because we are not just digits here, we are people, people with principles, people with ethics, feelings and opinion.

I’m NOT talking about 8dio in particular, nor -any developer in particular-, please I want to be -very clear- that I’m talking about certain type of EULA where the end user has no return policy and cannot resell/retransfer the product. Is just happening in this thread as it could be happening in any other. I’m just feeling the pain of the OT as I have experienced the same situation quite a few times with some products that I won’t disclose.

That policy is not ethical IMO and apart of all those inconveniences expressed by the OT (and suffered by many of us, not only financial but also an extent of painful feelings that can even cause personal/family issues in cases), one of the main reasons is that it allows legal scam (and again I’m not talking about any developer but the policy itself).
Nothing can stop me to scam you intentionally if I wish.
I just grab some of those homeless musicians that I can find in the Wellington streets, pay them 50 bucks for a session recording his instrument, record some samples in a badly manner, load the samples in Kontakt, and even if wrongly programmed too, as far as I can barely play something with it, I do a couple of well dressed demos and a walkthrough showing only the very best and hiding the severe limitations of course, and launch the product on sale through my website, investing practically no money and one or two days of work only (remember that’s badly done), and of course very aware that the instrument is practically useless, but very cheap to produce.
I can use my graphic skills to dress it with a professional looking packaging and a banner (I’d say about 30-45 additional minutes of my time) so no money spent at all on that.
Of course in the EULA you can read about no return and no re-sell/re-transfer policies, as I’m operating within the sample libraries market I can perfectly do that (legally speaking) as the law is quite ambiguous about music samples and its usage, so that’s the way to go.

I do invest some more bucks putting a banner in some forums and the legal scam is officially out! Exciting moment...
Some people find the demos great and begin purchasing the product.
Once they get what’s in the box, and the excitement becomes frustration, they still keep trying to make it to sound good for a while until they realize that there is no way because is not working even if minimally as expected. Then they finally realize that have wasted their money and time and start suffering all associated feelings. Some of them want to vent their disappointment in forums, but is not a big issue so far for the “Carle’s Homeless Series” product, it’s too early and complaints are not many.
Even with all people complaints after the purchase, I still can have earnings for a while because there is always misinformed people that will buy the product in base to the demos only. I also can create more well sounding demos to elongate the productive life of that scam, and I can even register several users in several forums to hype my product or ask some friends to do that.

As cheap as I’d release that product, with just having very moderate sales for short time the money and time invested is more than paid back given the low investment. If do manage to keep scamming for longer time it could result... very rewarding.

That would be all perfectly correct from a legal point of view, so, being legal, there is nothing wrong with that, isn’t it? It’s.... legal!
Nobody then, should be entitled to speak wrong about “Carles’ Homeless Series” because customers agreed that EULA before the purchase so they know what they’re doing, isn’t it.

Then no problem, if people keep complaining about, and a bad reputation begins to spread around, I can always introduce another user (fake or friend whatever is more legal) and he can say loud that some people is bashing the product, even reporting to moderators. If anyone is hesitant then one can listen the quality of the instrument in the demos, isn’t it?, so if sounding so good, those guys have to be actually bashing the acclaimed “Carles’ Homeless Series” obviously! So, I can keep the scam some longer.

I’m a serious developer in that case, right? I do operate always within the legal frame, create a product, introduce it attractively to the clients, sell it, and if someone is unhappy with the purchase, well, not my problem, all is stated in my EULA, so all sorted.
“Didn’t you listen the demos before? didn’t you watch the walkthrough? didn’t you read and agree the EULA? so? I’m so sorry that is not working -for you- while is working so finely to other as you can hear (you said that you did listen the demos isn’t it?) but... unfortunately the EULA is very explicit about our policy. We are not in position to offer you a refund, nor can you resell your license/s, as you've agreed. Thanks for your understanding and have a nice day




“

Hey, that’s sounds like a good deal for me, but would you say that “Carles’ Homeless Series” would be... ethically correct?
A perfectly organized scam is possible under that EULA thus I cannot consider it right, nor fair. Ever.

The single difference between my imaginary example and the real developers is the intention, but even with the most ethical and honest of the intentions, if a product doesn’t work for you, the consequences are exactly the same than in my story. The feelings can be quite similar to the fictional one too, a negative associated watermark warning you about that developer when remembered by the user.

I really hope that the so negative consequences that such an EULA can bring, could be solved because in its current status, it’s really a problem with quite negative side effects for both, developers and users. 

It always will be some piracy no matter what developers do, and it always will be people capable of abuse a return policy too.
I can perfectly understand a no return policy (being a software product and how easy one can abuse of it), but seriously, forbidding to resale a license? is that smart at all?
IMO that’s no other than a source of problems for the users and a very inconvenient policy for developers too, as it incentives piracy and causes disappointment on the users who can become detractors of the developer or at least unhappy customers that never again will buy anything from them. What should be a “shield” is actually causing more problems than protection and both sides have to suffer it. Sorry, but I find it really silly.

Being myself not a lover of any subscription model, talking about the sample library business, and for developers operating with this type of EULA, a subscription model (as an option to regular licenses, not replacing these) would be a very good alternative because it’s a relatively moderate waste of money if it didn’t work for you (versus the limitless waste when having no chance to properly test a product before executing an always risky purchase in a per every product basis) and could help to reduce piracy too. I wish more developers will implement a -complementary- subscription model (reasonably affordable) so one can properly test the products before to agree with such a particular EULA and spend the big money (or keep with the subscription for more time, whatever would result more rentable).

Don’t get me wrong please, I’m not saying anything against any developers, just the opposite, I love developers and what they do. That's why I'm writing this.
I did some collaborations with developers and loved the people behind in both cases, and happy to do more collaborations if the chance arises and I’ll have some time. I’d like with all my heart that developers will have all great success with their products, that customers will be happy customers, without remorse and vendettas, without any destructive behavior by any part, and that we can use their instruments without necessarily wasting a fortune (specially important for amateurs). No need of all that negativity. I think that such a policy is absurd and inconvenient to ALL of us. Only scammers can get benefit from it I think. I strongly believe that this type of EULA, while working fine for a developer short term, can easily kill a developer mid-long term, which would be an absurd loss for all of us.

Apologies for the long lecture, but I had to express how wrongly silly (as any abusive/restrictive policy) this policy is, and how it brings more bad consequences than solutions, a perfectly measurable fact based on what we can read here at V.I.Control. But, although so obvious demonstrations of what that negative policy caused and is still causing, (a considerable damage to both sides), it is still being greatly supported.
Sorry guys, but my Asperger mind is unable to understand why.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 3, 2015)

Respectfully if it is clearly stated to the potential purchaser, it is NOT unethical. You can say you think it is lousy, bad business, yadda, yadda, but to call it unethical is just wrong, and I said that long before I worked for EW.


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## ModalRealist (Jul 3, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Respectfully if it is clearly stated to the potential purchaser, it is NOT unethical. You can say you think it is lousy, bad business, yadda, yadda, but to call it unethical is just wrong, and I said that long before I worked for EW.



Sorry, Jay, was this in response to Carles? Are you saying it would be ethical to undertake the "scam" operation he describes?


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 3, 2015)

ModalRealist said:


> Sorry, Jay, was this in response to Carles? Are you saying it would be ethical to undertake the "scam" operation he describes?




Sorry, I should have been more specific. I was responding to Carles' saying "’ please I want to be -very clear- that I’m talking about certain type of EULA where the end user has no return policy and cannot resell/retransfer the product." That is not a "scam". A "scam" would be if the developer did not state that but did uphold that policy.


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## sleepy hollow (Jul 3, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> That is not a "scam". A "scam" would be if the developer did not state that but did uphold that policy.


No one said that a certain EULA is a "scam". Neither Carles, nor ModalRealist did.


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## stixman (Jul 3, 2015)

Spot on Carles


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 3, 2015)

sleepy hollow said:


> No one said that a certain EULA is a "scam". Neither Carles, nor ModalRealist did.



I think it is implied by "one of the main reasons is that it allows legal scam (and again I’m not talking about any developer but the policy itself)." And "legal scam" is an oxymoron IMHO.

Either way, I wanted my position to be clear and it has nothing to do with EW. When you enter into any agreement with clearly stated terms, you, the participant, are SOLELY responsible for what you agree to, unless you are a minor or suffer from a diminished capacity.

And the infantilization of the prevailing culture continues.


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## Guy Rowland (Jul 3, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> When you enter into any agreement with clearly stated terms, you, the participant, are SOLELY responsible for what you agree to, unless you are a minor or suffer from a diminished capacity.



http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jun/15/i-read-all-the-small-print-on-the-internet


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 3, 2015)

Guy Rowland said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jun/15/i-read-all-the-small-print-on-the-internet




None of that really applies to EW, cannot speak to 8dio. The fact is that is EW doesn't deposit the license for the iLok the unauthorized buyer will not be able to use it, so EW doesn't have to go after anybody. And the EW EULA is pretty darned clear, and the lack of resale/transfer is not hidden in fine print.

And the Guardian is a pretty Liberal-leftist paper so it is not surprising that they would take that stance.


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## guitarman1960 (Jul 3, 2015)

Carles, thank God for your brilliant post. I sometimes think I'm the only one on here who argues from a consumers point of view. There are far too many Devs, Devs Employees, Friends of Devs and Devs Fanboys on here who all club together to shout down any rational argument about EULAS. Forbidding resale is blatant breach of consumer rights as was discussed on the thread I started ages ago, using legal loopholes which allow sample libraries to be classed as audio recordings instead of the musical instruments they are manufactured as, sold as and marketed as, to trample all over the basic rights of the consumer. Since the last thread I started on the matter, I have consulted further with legal experts and I have a pretty watertight case which if brought before the European Court Of Justice would legally overide any EULA, and would force the Developers to allow resale within the EU at any rate. The European Court has already over ruled EULAS in other areas, and I have a pretty cast iron argument which I am not going to disclose on here, for overuling on EULAS that forbid sample library resale. My legal argument takes into account that audio recordings are part of the product but will not affect or water down in any way existing copyright laws that exist to protect other works.

Carles, you are completely right, forbidding resale of a product you can't try beforehand is totally and completely unethical.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 3, 2015)

guitarman1960 said:


> Carles, thank God for your brilliant post. I sometimes think I'm the only one on here who argues from a consumers point of view. There are far too many Devs, Devs Employees, Friends of Devs and Devs Fanboys on here who all club together to shout down any rational argument about EULAS. Forbidding resale is blatant breach of consumer rights as was discussed on the thread I started ages ago, uses legal loopholes which allow sample libraries to be classed as audio recordings instead of the musical instruments they are manufactured as, sold as and marketed as, to trample all over the basic rights of the consumer. Since the last thread I started on the matter, I have consulted further with legal experts and I have a pretty watertight case which if brought before the European Court Of Justice would legally overide any EULA, and would force the Developers to allow resale within the EU at any rate. The European Court has already over ruled EULAS in other areas, and I have a pretty cast iron argument which I am not going to disclose on here, for overuling on EULAS that forbid sample library resale. My legal argument takes into account that audio recordings are part of the product but will not affect or water down in any way existing copyright laws that exist to protect other works.
> 
> Carles, you are completely right, forbidding resale of a product you can't try beforehand is totally and completely unethical.



And someone who understands that is the policy of the developer, goes ahead and buys it _anyway_, and then complains after is a child.


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## guitarman1960 (Jul 3, 2015)

It may be the policy of the developer, but does that make it ethical?
Jay, I have been very fair in my previous posts and praised EastWest for developing products that aren't Kontakt based and have greater security, and have praised your new subscription system. Please try and have a rational discussion instead of acting like a child in a playground.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 3, 2015)

guitarman1960 said:


> It may be the policy of the developer, but does that make it ethical?
> Jay, I have been very fair in my previous posts and praised EastWest for developing products that aren't Kontakt based and have greater security, and have praised your new subscription system. Please try and have a rational discussion instead of acting like a child in a playground.



Yes, if it is clearly stated and it violates no laws and is not a monopoly, it DOES make it ethical.

For god's sakes people, if you don't like a developer's policies, just don't buy their products. That is what adults do.


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## guitarman1960 (Jul 3, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Yes, if it is clearly stated and it violates no laws and is not a monopoly, it DOES make it ethical.
> 
> For god's sakes people, if you don't like a developer's policies, just don't buy their products. That is what adults do.



Jay, with respect you are confusing 'ethical' with 'legal'. It is clearly 'legal' as laws currently stand. But in what way is forbidding resale of an expensive product that you can't try beforehand fair and ethical for the consumer?

It would not be tolerated in any other form of musical instrument. So now you are going to say that an orchestral string section 'virtual instrument' is not an instrument, right?


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## Guy Rowland (Jul 3, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> And the Guardian is a pretty Liberal-leftist paper so it is not surprising that they would take that stance.



Ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!

Oh that's my big laugh of the day. I'll leave you to carry on belittling and simplifying.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 3, 2015)

Guy Rowland said:


> Ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!
> 
> Oh that's my big laugh of the day. I'll leave you to carry on belittling and simplifying.



From Wiikipedia:_*The Guardian*_ is a British centre-left national daily newspaper.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 3, 2015)

guitarman1960 said:


> Jay, with respect you are confusing 'ethical' with 'legal'. It is clearly 'legal' as laws currently stand. But in what way is forbidding resale of an expensive product that you can't try beforehand fair and ethical for the consumer?
> 
> It would not be tolerated in any other form of musical instrument. So now you are going to say that an orchestral string section 'virtual instrument' is not an instrument, right?



"Ethical"'deals with morality. It is immoral to molest children; it is immoral to overcharge people for a necessity when there is no competition. It is not unethical to sell a software product with no resale or transfer.

And no, software instruments are clearly not real instruments, not even close. They are _snapshots_ of real instruments that can be manipulated, no more, no less.


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## Markus S (Jul 3, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Yes, if it is clearly stated and it violates no laws and is not a monopoly, it DOES make it ethical.
> 
> For god's sakes people, if you don't like a developer's policies, just don't buy their products. That is what adults do.



So you are suggesting as solution we should boycott every developer that has such EULA?


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## Hans Adamson (Jul 3, 2015)

When you click the button where you declare that you agree that the transaction is non-refundable, and the library is not re-sellable, before purchasing a library, you need to ask yourself if you are honest in entering the agreement. If you have any doubt, don't click the button.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 3, 2015)

Markus S said:


> So you are suggesting as solution we should boycott every developer that has such EULA?



No, not boycott. I am suggesting that you should not support what you don't approve of. I don't spend my money e.g. at Walmart because I don't approve of their business policies and instead spend my money at competitor's. 

I have no problem with companies that do not allow resale or transfer and I therefore I have bought them. If you _do_ have a problem, there is lots of competition, so buy the competitor's. Or if you don't think the competitor's is as good, buy the product from the developer whose policy you don't like but man up and don't complain about it after the fact.

Why is this difficult to understand?


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## Markus S (Jul 3, 2015)

Hans Adamson said:


> When you click the button where you declare that you agree that the transaction is non-refundable, and the library is not re-sellable, before purchasing a library, you need to ask yourself if you are honest in entering the agreement. If you have any doubt, don't click the button.



Yeah sorry, won't happen again.


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## guitarman1960 (Jul 3, 2015)

Don't worry people, I am in contact with Consumer Rights groups both in the UK and in Europe regarding bringing this matter before the European Court Of Justice. I have been getting very favorable reactions to my argument, and if it can be brought before the European Court I am very confident of a positive outcome that will over ride these EULAS that are indefensible on any grounds other than using sleight of hand to exploit legal loopholes.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 3, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> No, not boycott. I am suggesting that you should not support what you don't approve of. I don't spend my money e.g. at Walmart because I don't approve of their business policies and instead spend my money at competitor's.
> 
> I have no problem with companies that do not allow resale or transfer and I therefore I have bought them. If you _do_ have a problem, there is lots of competition, so buy the competitor's. Or if you don't think the competitor's is as good, buy the product from the developer whose policy you don't like but man up and don't complain about it after the fact.
> 
> Why is this difficult to understand?



"Man up." "Infantilization of society." "...complains about it is 
a child." Jay, you takin' steroids again?? 

Maybe there _should_ be a general boycott of companies whose EULAS don't allow resale-then there would be no need to be childish about buying a library based on professional demos that had been tortured for weeks to make a product sound good, then receiving it and realizing what an unwieldy beast it is.

Time-limited trial licenses or trade in for store credit would solve this problem, and they make good sense.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 3, 2015)

Love the new signature, Larry.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 3, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Love the new signature, Larry.



I've had it for a year, Jay...but "new" at our age...


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 3, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> I've had it for a year, Jay...but "new" at our age...



Shows how observant I am


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## michaelv (Jul 3, 2015)

benmrx said:


> Michaelv, I was under the impression from their walk thru's that the ostinato builder was indeed one bar phrases, but that there were round robins recorded. So, yes, you have to keep retriggering the phrase, but the use of round robins would help alleviate the 'loop' feeling, and in the end be more believable than say a static 4bar phrase that looped itself.
> 
> Is that not the case?



Benmrx, there are no round robins, which underlines my point. There is no mention of them in the documentation, and I've played many, many phrases, ad nauseam, and they sound relentlessly identical. I don't think there was anywhere in the pre release information relating to one shot sampling and round robins. And there are no controls for any round robin function. To have to keep retriggering phrases is quite extraordinary. Just how much trouble would it have been to have four-bar played phrases, and loop them ? ! NI managed it. I think the only way to liven up one-bar phrases would be to introduce minute ,random pitches variations. I tried this with the wheel and it greatly improves matters.

As an experiment, I recorded the same phrase twice and looped it for four bars. You'll note that there is a rhythmic discrepancy to the phrase: it seems to slightly rush, or snatch near the end. Looping this would not be great. I've heard other rhythmic glitches like this in the library. The second example is the exactly the same phrase, but with some subtle random pitching variation. I know which I prefer. The edited one seems less jerky; probably something to do with the brain being distracted. This is the only way to get over the monotony of a one-bar loop and no round robin. If my edited version is used in an arrangement it will sound much more realistic than the straight one, in my opinion. Here they are:



I'll not be keeping this test up for long. For some reason, this site doesn't recognise private Sound Cloud links, and I don't want hanging around on my SC page for too long.

I'm standing by my opinion of this product.


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## ModalRealist (Jul 3, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> "Ethical"'deals with morality. It is immoral to molest children; it is immoral to overcharge people for a necessity when there is no competition. *It is not unethical to sell a software product with no resale or transfer.*



Jay, with all due respect, that's nothing but an assertion on your part. It's ridiculous and infantile to wheel out "the ethical" as if your pronouncements on that which is and is not such are definitive judgements. It's precisely a conflict over what is and is not ethical that is at stake here. What's at issue, fundamentally, is this: 

It is unclear whether or not it is ethical to sell a product which one claims can do X, under a no-returns stipulation, if at least some of your customers _ex post facto_ come to believe that the product does not do X.

You say it is ethical; I say it isn't. Maybe it's a necessity that developers have to run with, lest the entire business collapses: that's fine, so be it, but that doesn't automatically make it ethical.

Any other distance selling business operating in the United Kingdom (much less the European Union) falls under certain regulations concerning opt-out periods on both goods and services. There would be an outcry over unethical business practices if faulty washing machines which didn't offer all of their advertised functionality were refused returns when sold online. It's crazy to suggest that just because a product is a physical sequence of electrical charges, rather than a physical sequence of atoms, that it becomes magically ethical to refuse returns of faulty or dysfunctional products.


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## sleepy hollow (Jul 3, 2015)

guitarman1960 said:


> Don't worry people, I am in contact with Consumer Rights groups both in the UK and in Europe regarding bringing this matter before the European Court Of Justice. I have been getting very favorable reactions to my argument, and if it can be brought before the European Court I am very confident of a positive outcome that will over ride these EULAS that are indefensible on any grounds other than using sleight of hand to exploit legal loopholes.


Remember where you heard it first, people! :D Maybe this will be all over the news soon, who knows.
An interesting topic and I'll gladly read any news you might have for us.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 3, 2015)

ModalRealist said:


> Jay, with all due respect, that's nothing but an assertion on your part. It's ridiculous and infantile to wheel out "the ethical" as if your pronouncements on that which is and is not such are definitive judgements. It's precisely a conflict over what is and is not ethical that is at stake here. What's at issue, fundamentally, is this:
> 
> It is unclear whether or not it is ethical to sell a product which one claims can do X, under a no-returns stipulation, if at least some of your customers _ex post facto_ come to believe that the product does not do X.
> 
> ...



Once again, the dictionary says "ethical" is about *moral* principles. Do you really think selling non-rellable/non-transferable software when you tell the customer ahead of time is "*immoral*?" If so, I respectfully submit that your moral compass is broken.


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## guitarman1960 (Jul 3, 2015)

The UK govt are looking into ways that consumer rights are being violated by the software and digital industries in general. The laws to protect consumers are lagging way behind in the areas of Internet and digital products. They are examining how EULAS are actually contracts that impose unfair terms on the consumer, and software companies who try and get around this by claiming that the EULAS are licences not contracts and so don't have to be fair, are not going to be allowed this loophole. There has become a nasty history of software not being subject to the same rules as physical products which has enabled widescale abuse of consumers rights. Including that a product must be 'fit for purpose' and actually do all the things it is advertised as doing. There is no reason on earth why software should escape these basic laws of fairness, and eventually consumer rights WILL catch up with technology and laws will be put in place to protect consumers from unfair practices. It may take a long time but it will happen.


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## ModalRealist (Jul 3, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Once again, the dictionary says "ethical" is about *moral* principles. Do you really think selling non-rellable/non-transferable software when you tell the customer ahead of time is "*immoral*?" If so, I respectfully submit that your moral compass is broken.



Yes, I do think that selling a broken product without the consumer having the option to return it is *immoral*. It's a scam. The seller says the product does X, and it doesn't; the buyer is left without recourse to justice - they are out of pocket, with an item that does not do what they were told it would.

Samples are like fags. Selling them in bright, shiny packaging that advertises them as wonderful, affirming lifestyle products, is *immoral*. That's why in *civilised* countries, those packets have big white and black labels all over them indicating in no uncertain terms the negative health impacts they come with.

It'll be moral for you to sell dodgily programmed sample libraries minus a returns policy, when the advertising and the articulation list comes up with a big fat 64pt message reading:

*"WARNING: SAMPLE PRODUCTS MAY NOT INCLUDE ALL ADVERTISED CONTENT IN WORKING ORDER"*

Next time, lay off insulting people's moral capacities.

P.S. And I love my Hollywood Orchestra. Just lets get those HOP Silver rolls fixed, eh?


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## guitarman1960 (Jul 3, 2015)

The new Consumer Rights Act comes into force in the UK in October 2015, and for the first time 'digital content' is specifically covered by consumer laws. The old get out that digital products are not 'tangible product's in the eyes of the law will soon be a thing of the past!!!!! Changes are coming people and none too soon. The new laws state that faulty digital content will entitle consumers to a refund if not fixed within a short timeframe. Obviously there will still be loads of grey areas for quite a time, but the laws are catching up slowly but surely.


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## Andrew Aversa (Jul 3, 2015)

Hmm. I've certainly been burned on sample library purchases before, and so for Impact Soundworks instruments we try to go out of our way to provide tons of video + demo content so people can make informed decisions. It's very rare that we get anyone asking for a refund or transfer, though we do allow the latter in select cases.

BUT... here's an interesting case study. Awhile back we did try having a 30-day return policy. The results were a spike in people asking for refunds VERY shortly after buying a product. After talking with a number of these customers, here's what I concluded: having such a policy seems to encourage SOME people to make very fast judgments on a product, and not put in time to learn it.

In other words, this small number of customers were using the return policy as a way to 'demo' the purchase. This creates lots of problems for small developers like us: increased support time, bandwidth usage, uncertainty that the customers are ACTUALLY deleting files, etc. 

With very powerful virtual instruments, sometimes you do need to spend more than a few minutes to learn it. I've made hours of Shreddage 2 tutorials for example showcasing best-practices for using the library, and lots of time helping people 1-on-1 via email. Consistently, I see that when people take that little bit of extra time to watch one of my videos, or ask us a simple question about, say, guitar mixing, they get great results AND are much happier. Everyone wins.

The point of all this is to say that while as a customer I of course appreciate refund policies, it raises some issues in the world of virtual instruments and sample libraries... personally I think a consumer-friendly transfer policy is perhaps the best compromise.


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## tack (Jul 3, 2015)

zircon_st said:


> BUT... here's an interesting case study. Awhile back we did try having a 30-day return policy. The results were a spike in people asking for refunds VERY shortly after buying a product. After talking with a number of these customers, here's what I concluded: having such a policy seems to encourage SOME people to make very fast judgments on a product, and not put in time to learn it.


I could see that. Not providing a refund but allowing resale seems like a fair compromise. Reselling is just inconvenient enough that I might stick it out with a library I wasn't happy about within my first couple hours of use. (However, at least in my own limited experience, I haven't come across a library that I've changed my opinion about after forming that initial two-hour opinion.)

On the other hand, a refund policy means that impulse buys are _far_ more likely. If you're only looking at the return rates, you're only getting half the picture. You'd really have to compare the net sales before and after offering refunds to know.

(Philosophy 101 side bar: morals and ethics, though related, are different things. If you're using the terms interchangeably, you're doing it wrong.)


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 3, 2015)

ModalRealist said:


> Yes, I do think that selling a broken product without the consumer having the option to return it is *immoral*. It's a scam. The seller says the product does X, and it doesn't; the buyer is left without recourse to justice - they are out of pocket, with an item that does not do what they were told it would.
> 
> Samples are like fags. Selling them in bright, shiny packaging that advertises them as wonderful, affirming lifestyle products, is *immoral*. That's why in *civilised* countries, those packets have big white and black labels all over them indicating in no uncertain terms the negative health impacts they come with.
> 
> ...



If you define a library as "broken" because very single patch doesn't work as it should, I think then that there are probably few, if any, large unbroken ones.

But let's narrow it down: If every single patch in the non-resellable library DID work as should but after you bought it you really did not like the sound or the workflow, would you still call it "immoral" that it cannot be resold or transferred?


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## benmrx (Jul 3, 2015)

michaelv said:


> Benmrx, there are no round robins, which underlines my point. There is no mention of them in the documentation, and I've played many, many phrases, ad nauseam, and they sound relentlessly identical. I don't think there was anywhere in the pre release information relating to one shot sampling and round robins. And there are no controls for any round robin function. To have to keep retriggering phrases is quite extraordinary. Just how much trouble would it have been to have four-bar played phrases, and loop them ? ! NI managed it. I think the only way to liven up one-bar phrases would be to introduce minute ,random pitches variations. I tried this with the wheel and it greatly improves matters.
> 
> As an experiment, I recorded the same phrase twice and looped it for four bars. You'll note that there is a rhythmic discrepancy to the phrase: it seems to slightly rush, or snatch near the end. Looping this would not be great. I've heard other rhythmic glitches like this in the library. The second example is the exactly the same phrase, but with some subtle random pitching variation. I know which I prefer. The edited one seems less jerky; probably something to do with the brain being distracted. This is the only way to get over the monotony of a one-bar loop and no round robin. If my edited version is used in an arrangement it will sound much more realistic than the straight one, in my opinion. Here they are:
> 
> ...




Thanks for post that, and well.... I must say I definitely like your edited version better. I do hear the 'rushing' you speak of. Maybe I was wrong on this. And just to double check, are there 'lite' versions of the ostinato builder patches, or just a single patch for each ostinato type?


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## ModalRealist (Jul 3, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> If you define a library as "broken" because very single patch doesn't work as it should, I think then that there are probably few, if any, large unbroken ones.
> 
> But let's narrow it down: If every single patch in the non-resellable library DID work as should but after you bought it you really did not like the sound or the workflow, would you still call it "immoral" that it cannot be resold or transferred?



No, that would be absolutely fine (so long as there was some available demonstration of the general sound and workflow, and that both were sufficiently uniform throughout the product). It is not immoral to say "my product is flawless as advertised" and refuse refunds if, in fact, the product is flawless as advertised. Obviously, if the product isn't flawless in this manner, we collapse back into an immoral position.

As you point out, none of the products are flawless, so consumers deserve the _option_ of recourse. Many won't take it: the flaws don't bother them (all those happy Adagio customers). Some will: those who find it quasi-unusable (the unhappy few).

I believe that a system which helps both developers and consumers is possible. I would be in favour of all products using iLok or eLicenser: something pirate-proof. Allow people to return their licenses. No license on your iLok, no software usage. And here's the kicker, see if this sways you at all Jay: *returning a license voids your right to use those samples in work you have already completed.* So if you've used the samples for a project that you don't wholly control (and therefore can't withdraw from market) you can't return the sample library.


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## michaelv (Jul 3, 2015)

benmrx said:


> Thanks for post that, and well.... I must say I definitely like your edited version better. I do hear the 'rushing' you speak of. Maybe I was wrong on this. And just to double check, are there 'lite' versions of the ostinato builder patches, or just a single patch for each ostinato type?



Thank you, Sir. I know my version is an improvement, not wishing to appear arrogant. I've been playing the mockup game for a long time, and my clients are always happy.There are several rhythmically uneven figures like this. I'm not sure why they're described as ostinato builder patches. The user builds nothing ! One is stuck with the pattern. Set in stone, if you like.

In terms of your question, no, there is no lite version. There's a Time Machine, and Time Machine Pro version. I hear no difference between them. Here's the patch I used. They're all like this….






Thanks.


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## Carles (Jul 3, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Why is this difficult to understand?


Because things are not black or white. There are many shades of grey with many different implications.

Jay, the EULA itself is not unethical, but the facts under its umbrella –might- be certainly unethical as that policy greatly allow (and almost incentive) to do that.
We are not discussing the most proper semantic for the word “ethics” here, that's (with all due respect), irrelevant in this discussion. It's more about about some implications. Call it, unethical, or wrong, or unfair, negative, inconvenient, bad, damaging, destructive, or however you want, but I think we all know what we are talking about.

Didn’t want to mention any developers for good or bad, but I need a good example to illustrate my point as this won't harm anyone.
3 years ago I did listen to demos (and respective walkthrough) looking for an orchestral percussion package and my ear goes to Spitfire Redux.
I do purchase the library, take it out the box and I find, an excellent set of orchestral percussion. Great sound, fits nicely in all my mixes, has no functional issues, is comprehensive and easy to work with. I use it all the time. Clearly one my best purchases ever. That’s what the experience of purchasing an instrument should be in a regular basis.

No, nothing wrong with that EULA applied to that product. All perfectly legal and ethical to me. I did spent a considerable amount of money but I’ve been corresponded properly. I've got what I've expected and I've been, I’m and I will be using the product for many years so I feel that my money is very well invested. That’s a happy story. An ideal scenario. But unfortunately not always happen that.

Please let me use another fictional example, even more fuzzy than the “Carle’s Homeless Series”, not so obvious scam but somehow feeling in that direction (or not).
Some instruments are well known by their flexible register thus their flexible role while working as bridge between sections. I love French horns, bassoons and cellos because of that quality and they are essential part of my writing.
Now I got to produce one of those instruments, let’s say a bassoon (or a French horn or a cello, just an example. I hope it won’t resemble any real product as I’m just inventing a story here).
I do pay for a professional bassoonist, a good engineer, a good programmer, etc. Not intended as scam at all. But, given my limited budget only half of the register of the instrument it’s been sampled.
So the new arrived “Carle’s Majestic Bassoon” is out, “grab this sale now a take huge benefit from the introductory price!".

Demos are super beautiful and the bassoon very functional and capable, with a nice set of articulations (but all features are limited to the sampled range obviously).

Up to this point, it’s hard to tell if there is anything unethical or not, even if decided to use that type of EULA, it’s all right so far. Is precisely the use of the EULA in conjunction with other factors what will make the difference.

Not in the walkthrough, nor in the specs is never stated that “Carles’ Majestic Bassoon” is a very restricted instrument.
Anyone should systematically assume that if something that important is not stated obviously you are getting an instrument capable to play its full register (some notes more or less, but within the standards of the instrument), why should anyone ever think otherwise if never stated any were.
So the customers, expecting the flexibility that this type of instrument usually offers, will buy the product, and when they realize the strong limitation they will ask me for a refund or a possibility to re-sell, and I again will say, “did you listen to demos?, walkthrough? agreed EULA? I’m so sorry that the instruments is not working –for you- while working fine to other as you can hear... Unfortunately we are not in position to offer you a refund, nor you can resell your license”...

In that case, I’d find it clearly unethical.

If I’ll also mention in the campaign “the most beautiful mid-register bassoon out there” with the mere intention to use that base-line as a legal argument to prove that I’ve stated publicly that the bassoon is limited to its mid register, that’s unethical too IMO because actually is not clearly stating that the instrument is limited, just an intentionally ambiguous sentence that can be easily understood as that its mid register is specially beautiful yet not clarifying that’s a limitation.
That would be IMO, again unethical.

If otherwise I do clearly put emphasis on making sure that the restrictions will be undoubtedly stated, and make sure that everyone understand that “Carle’s Majestic Bassoon” is an instrument designed to cover a very specific scenario and no more, then I’d find it instead, perfectly ethical.

-The same product under the same EULA- might result unethical or not, according no more and no less than the ethics of the developer behind. (it’s a knife a tool or a weapon? in my hands it’s a tool, in hands of somebody else might be a weapon. Is not about the asset but about the use or abuse of it).

What’s very incorrect IMO, is that this type of EULA not only allows unethical and abusive intentions, but also benefits much more the former than developers with actual honorable intentions.

This policy, as soon as it allows abuse is by all means faulty, thus incorrect.

The advantages for an hypothetic dishonest developer are much bigger than for a honest one.
It might have a high price to pay not only by the customers but also by any honest developer when competing with less honest developers, with the high price tag of having to close the company or otherwise having to join the scam side to survive to so brutal competition, which is in all cases, is again bad to all of us, developers included.
Still, I cannot understand why it is so strongly supported by honest developers.
Again, my Asperger mind cannot understand why.


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## Carles (Jul 3, 2015)

zircon_st said:


> The point of all this is to say that while as a customer I of course appreciate refund policies, it raises some issues in the world of virtual instruments and sample libraries... personally I think a consumer-friendly transfer policy is perhaps the best compromise.


Couldn't understand and agree more. Sounds very fair to me. Also happy to pay a transfer fee to help paying off the administrative work and inconveniences to the developer and/or owner of the license management.


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## guitarman1960 (Jul 4, 2015)

Of course some fantastic developers, for example Spectrasonics, do offer a licence transfer service for a very reasonable fee. Maybe they know, correctly in this case, that their products are so amazing that very few customers will want to sell them!


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## guitarman1960 (Jul 4, 2015)

Hello people, I have been studying more details of the new Consumer Rights Act which comes into force in October this year in the UK. It clearly states that Digital Content will then have to meet some of the same basic criteria as physical products. That is, be fit for purpose and meet any description given to it! If not, the provider has to remedy the problem within a reasonable time, I think two weeks is being mentioned but would need to clarify. If problems are not resolved without inconvenience to the customer, the customer will be entitled to keep the product, but receive financial compensation.
In addition to this, if the digital content is provided on a physical medium such as a disc or drive of some kind, if it is not fit for purpose and does not perform all of its stated functions correctly this customer will be entitled to return the product for an immediate refund.
This is only the beginning of the new age of consumer rights. Not before time!!!!


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## zacnelson (Jul 4, 2015)

Greg said:


> I agree about Adagio. IMO it doesn't hold up against Cinematic Strings 2 or Albion. As for those of you that think we should sensor ourselves, I disagree. This forum is supposed to be for real opinions from real users and professionals.
> 
> Adagietto however, I think is really awesome. Use it a lot.


Greg, what do you think makes Adagietto superior to Adagio? I would have thought Adagietto is basically the same thing, but with LESS stuff. (I have Adagietto by the way, I bought it last November).


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## Greg (Jul 4, 2015)

zacnelson said:


> Greg, what do you think makes Adagietto superior to Adagio? I would have thought Adagietto is basically the same thing, but with LESS stuff. (I have Adagietto by the way, I bought it last November).



Sorry I meant to say Agitato. The legato is really nice sounding and very playable.


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