# Sousa - Washington Post March (Cinematic Studio Strings etc.)



## AlexanderSchiborr (Jun 28, 2016)

Hi Guys, 

Well it is not my composition for sure, but I thought to put it here. 
It is still a bit kind of workflow version though. Strings are completely Cinematic Studio Strings. I am open to suggestions regarding the sound, dynamics, balancing etc.


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## rgarber (Jun 28, 2016)

Highest compliment I can give, sounded real to me. The mix is incredible. I'm hearing lines in the March I've never heard before in previous recordings I heard. I think I only heard and played this march a million times in my youth.


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## patrick76 (Jun 28, 2016)

This is very lifelike, congratulations! Is this all samples? If so, would you mind sharing what other libraries you used? I agree with rgarber that it sounds quite real. Well done sir.


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## leon chevalier (Jun 28, 2016)

Alexander, your mockups are always very impressive!


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## emid (Jun 28, 2016)

I know you don't like 'oh this is awesome' comments  but it is indeed! I second rgarber. Original sounding I could easily be dodged if heard somewhere else. Very well done.


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## bbunker (Jun 28, 2016)

Sounds great - but what's with the wrong notes in the second strain?? Your cymbal player and bass drum players are a bit in their own world too, just plowing through some of the accents that they should actually be driving more than the snare.

There's a bit of balancing issues in the trio and the counter strain, too - the chugging lower voices are far too loud for a lyrical trio, and I can't hear the euphs and bones at the counter. It kind of sounds like you've got low strings playing on every eighth note in the last strain, too...I have to say I'm not digging the accompaniment there.

Some real cracking good sounds going on in there, though.


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## wst3 (Jun 28, 2016)

I swear for a couple of minutes there I was 16 again, marching and staring at that really cute girl in the silks squad... that was a really well done production! Wow!


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jun 29, 2016)

patrick76 said:


> This is very lifelike, congratulations! Is this all samples? If so, would you mind sharing what other libraries you used? I agree with rgarber that it sounds quite real. Well done sir.



Hi Patrick,

Yes, it is all samples here. And thank you for the compliment. Also to other guys here.

Sure, no Problem.

Strings: Cinematic Studio Strings

Woodwinds: Strezov Sampling (Flutes), Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds (Oboe, Clarinet, Bass Clarinet, Bassoon), VSL SE Vol 1 Woodwinds (Oboe, Flutes, Piccolo Flute)

Brass: Hollywood Brass (Trumpets, Trombones, Tuba), Strezov Sampling (French Horns), Orchestral Tools (Bass Trombones, Tuba)

Percussion: Spitfire Audio (Cymbals, Bassdrum), Sonatina Symphonic Orchestra (Glockenspiel)


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## Cass Hansen (Jun 29, 2016)

WOW! Just in time for the 4th of July, well in this country at least.

Nice to see you back here Alexander. Always enjoy your rousing posts. Yes, it sounds very realistic, like I'm right out on the street watching the band go by. Placement, orchestration, dynamics are excellent.

My only critique I can offer is that maybe the glock is not loud enough, I could barely hear it. On a street parade at least, the glock cuts through like glass.

Also the balance between sections get a bit off here and there, but nothing to serious. I agree with bunker on the trio section not being quite in balance (brass chord hits are a bit much) but the worst offender would be at 27 seconds to the 30 sec mark. The melody disappears completely (I believe it is in the first violins at that point) and all you hear is the accompaniment. 

But other than these few simple balancing fixes, it was very impressive indeed. Great combination of libraries that you chose.
Cass


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## Steve Martin (Jun 29, 2016)

Hi Alexander,

awesome mate, just awesome! Great to hear a your performance of this. Have to say you've done a absolutely superb performance here. It was a lot of fun to listen to - I really enjoyed the listening experience. Thanks for so much sharing.

Steve


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jun 30, 2016)

Thanks so much guys, glad you enjoyed the track. Sousa marches are really cool, and you can learn a lot from them. One thing I learned is that he uses the French horns really just for rhythmic forward motion and as a harmonic glue in the mid registers, there are more things but this something I noticed here. So when you start writing something similiar it is nothing wrong to do similiar things. Of course there is structually thing (AABBCC etc.)

And yes there are some little flaws in my workflow version. I think somehow next week around I will fiddle around with the mockup again. If anyone is interested in details about reverberation / Hall etc. feel free to let me know.


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## leon chevalier (Jun 30, 2016)

Any knowledge you are willing to share is more than welcome 
How you create depth and panning for the dry instruments would be great!


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## kfirpr (Jun 30, 2016)

Great track! can we know a little bit on your mixing process? or plugins, you gave me some good advises couple months ago which I still follow.


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## Baron Greuner (Jun 30, 2016)

You captured the spirit of it Alexander!


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jun 30, 2016)

kfirpr said:


> Great track! can we know a little bit on your mixing process? or plugins, you gave me some good advises couple months ago which I still follow.



Well, I went here for a very simple way.

There are 5 orchestragroups in Cubase:
Strings
Woodwinds
Brass
Percussion
Masterchannel

All the miditracks are routed to these groups, so for instance 1st violin, 2nd, Vloa etc. is routed to the strings. All Woodwinds are routed to the Woodwinds Group and so on. All 4 groups are routed finally to the Masterchannel. On each Group I put an instance of QL Spaces (Hollywood Stage) with eception of the strings, there I didn´t use any because they allready had the nice ambience. The Masterchannel has also an Instance of Spaces with the same Hollywood Scoring Stage room. And now comes the thing: I don´t use much of wet signal (maybe -30 dB) instead of that I decrease a lot the dry signal and increase the input signal to maintain the same loudness. (In my opinion people often use too much of the wet signal and their mix becomes mushy and sounds like an orchestra from a gigantic trashcan, unfortunately)

Another thing what I do: I eq the instruments - sometimes very little, sometimes a lot! But in general: Before you go and eq instruments, go and balance your template, most time spent on moving faders. EQ is more or less a cosmetic kind of thing.

And that depends also on the source of samples and on what I have to approximate. Lets take an example: The Glockenspiel. When you listen to a glock in a scoring stage live, the most information you get are musical tones in the higher frequencies, but not so much the stick sound when it hits the glock, so I eq those spots a bit. Another thing is when I eq I try to boost a bit the _musical frequencies_. And those frequencies are those where the instruments have their sweet spot (where they shine). But to recognize those spots needs a bit time and in my opinion some years of experience working in with orchestral sampled orchestra. And also: Don´t treat the mix like a dance / pop production, so keep a bit that muddy lower mids alive, because they also contribute to the atmosphere and the _glue of the orchestra sections _sections.
That´s pretty much it. So I treat reverberation pretty simple because in the end..one thing is the most important: Your ear, so do what sounds good! That is always always what I do in the end. When something looks fancy just technically wise but does sound like crap, then don´t do it.
And one thing before I forget it: Don´t go and use the patches like the developer intended to use. Use them to your advance. So when there is a patch named "6 French Horns Leg" but the legato lines sounds better with "6 Horns Rep. Sus" whatever then go and use those. Also try to layer sounds a bit, for instance layer on a flute leg a subtle stac, there you get a bit more bite ecspecially the whole orchestra is very occupied and loud. For lyrical passage not so important though.

I hope that helps a bit?


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## Brendon Williams (Jun 30, 2016)

Sounds great Alex, as expected! How do you like the Strezov flutes and horns? They sound great here.


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## kfirpr (Jul 1, 2016)

Alex for president!


AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Well, I went here for a very simple way.
> 
> There are 5 orchestragroups in Cubase:
> Strings
> ...


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jul 1, 2016)

Brendon Williams said:


> Sounds great Alex, as expected! How do you like the Strezov flutes and horns? They sound great here.



Greetings Brendon,
Hope you are doing good. Well I think they are great. They were recorded relatively dry (4 mic positions), so there is some flexibility. Their tone isn´t that "epic" typical kind of sound, but when you like more of an intimate 80s scoring stage orchestrasound then this is exactly what you get. The sampled range is good. In the lower dynamics they sound really nice, the legato is great and agile, staccatos have bite and sound fresh. The dynamic processing is also well made so there are no unlucky surprises as well. Overall I think George intended to create a very musical instrument here. And for ..what was it like? 80 Bucks or something you can´t go so wrong. I am very happy with them and use them pretty often. Just go an listen to the patch walkthrough on YT, there you get a good impression of the Georges French Horns. The Flutes are practically of the same league for me, very natural tone, agile Legato, but you can do both, lyrical lines and faster passages, even runs are possible. Overall when you don´t need any kind of fancy special articulation or aleatoric effects, then these are 2 really great VIs.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jul 1, 2016)

bbunker said:


> Sounds great - but what's with the wrong notes in the second strain?? Your cymbal player and bass drum players are a bit in their own world too, just plowing through some of the accents that they should actually be driving more than the snare.
> 
> There's a bit of balancing issues in the trio and the counter strain, too - the chugging lower voices are far too loud for a lyrical trio, and I can't hear the euphs and bones at the counter. It kind of sounds like you've got low strings playing on every eighth note in the last strain, too...I have to say I'm not digging the accompaniment there.
> 
> Some real cracking good sounds going on in there, though.


Yes, indeed in the later parts, well my band is here and there a bit sloppy maybe they still have the hungover from the last night 



Cass Hansen said:


> WOW! Just in time for the 4th of July, well in this country at least.
> 
> Nice to see you back here Alexander. Always enjoy your rousing posts. Yes, it sounds very realistic, like I'm right out on the street watching the band go by. Placement, orchestration, dynamics are excellent.
> 
> ...



Your observation is right, a little more for the glock wouldn´t hurt anyone. 

I am going to next week and look for some of the spots. 

Thank you for the feedback, guy, much appreciated.


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## Brendon Williams (Jul 1, 2016)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Greetings Brendon,
> Hope you are doing good. Well I think they are great. They were recorded relatively dry (4 mic positions), so there is some flexibility. Their tone isn´t that "epic" typical kind of sound, but when you like more of an intimate 80s scoring stage orchestrasound then this is exactly what you get. The sampled range is good. In the lower dynamics they sound really nice, the legato is great and agile, staccatos have bite and sound fresh. The dynamic processing is also well made so there are no unlucky surprises as well. Overall I think George intended to create a very musical instrument here. And for ..what was it like? 80 Bucks or something you can´t go so wrong. I am very happy with them and use them pretty often. Just go an listen to the patch walkthrough on YT, there you get a good impression of the Georges French Horns. The Flutes are practically of the same league for me, very natural tone, agile Legato, but you can do both, lyrical lines and faster passages, even runs are possible. Overall when you don´t need any kind of fancy special articulation or aleatoric effects, then these are 2 really great VIs.



Awesome, thanks for the detailed response! And I'm definitely considering CSS after all the great things I've heard about it so far. Sounds lovely!


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## Rodney Money (Jul 1, 2016)

My friend, I applaud your attempt concerning rendering this famous work, but unfortunately I do not share everyone else's enthusiasm concerning the mock-up or arrangement. If this was your own new piece, I might have said,"Wonderful exciting march with some great melodies," but since I know this piece well through both performing and conducting I humbly offer these notes:

The percussion sounds like high schoolers playing too loudly while sight-reading, and the ryhthms are all over the place not precise especially at the beginning. Your cymbals and bass drum almost sound as though they are playing sycopations instead of "a 2..." The snare drum needs to take center stage becoming as melodic as a Tina Guo Legato Patch. We need to hear more expression in the part and the rolls need to sing out just like the hits. I would consider taking the glockenspiel out completely, because the piece simply doesn't need it. The mallet players normally only play marches when the conductor doesn't want them sitting around, so he lets them double the flute part. The bass drum and cymbal needs to sound more mature and less adding accent but not taking over the overall sound.

What makes a March exciting is contrast in dynamics which your rendering lacks. Your piece barely dips below mf staying around f-ff mostly. Your overall sound is too harsh and bright where it should actually be warm, round, and refine. Marches were the pop music of their day and this particular piece was written for a children's essay contest where each melody should be played as someone was singing them warmly. Your dynamics take away the power of this piece. Since it is basically loud though out, the climax is not as powerful as it could be simply because of lack of contrast in dynamics. I feel that another issue is that you rely too much on "the strings are the backbone of the symphony," so we hear them pretty much through out creating grey colors in orchestration and not clear color. You try to create color with brass, but your use of brass is too harsh for this work.

The overall brass tone simply does not work. It is too bright, the trombones are too strident, but less define, and falls short when we need to hear them playing their counter-melodies. The trombones should never sound epic with a cuivre ringing tone. They should always sound warm except for when they are articulating faster passages. The sound really suffered from lack of euphonium here and the use of bright sounding epic Libraies such as East West and Orchestral Tools. Spitfire, VSL, or SM would have been a better choice here. The brass shorts have too much bite and cause too much attention taking away the elegance of the work. The trumpet should only come in during louder repeats but should never reach ff until the very end staying around mf to f but keeping a warm sound.

I noticed that you mentioned Sousa's use of horn on off beats. I highly recommend that composers in their own music stay away from this technique, because even though it is effective, it is the laziest form of writing, worst use of horns, and horn players absolute hate playing those parts and marches like these. The audience loves it, the players not so much. Secretly brass players hate playing marches except for the trombones and euphoniums when they have exciting counter-melodies which in your rendering we barely heard. Tubas and horns hate playing the eqilivent of a piano player's accompaniment and trumpets hate playing these melodies over and over again loudly, because they ruin the chops quickly.

I feel that you missed the oppurtunity to represent the warm mid, alto woodwind range such as clarinets, and saxophones which works so well in quieter sections in marches. You could've also used mellow horns for these parts. The quiet, mellow woodwinds lets the brass sound larger even if they are playing warm and mf. You would be surprise to learn that most of a March is played gently and quieter to make the louder sections sound absolutely thrilling. At the beginning you could have the entire ensemble, tutti playing forte. Then at the main A section, just stay around mf while everyone plays together in a relax fashion with no harshness or brightness. At the B section, lower the volume featuring woodwinds such as clarinet, oboe, and flute, with beautiful expressive snare drum rolls and hits, then when B repeats, add the trumpet on the melody at mf and make sure we can hear the trombone's counter-melody.

At the trio, I would love to hear a mixture of clarinet and the air of the flute and strings on top playing no louder than mp. Then on the repeat, this would be the perfect time for a warm soft clarinet and saxophone soli. People mock my love of the warmth of symphonic warm sounding saxophones but this timbre is what makes this section so effective in Sousa's original composition. Then there is what I call a fake build-up to the final "chorus." You can get a little brassy here but die down back to mp and then at the repeat and final time we hear the melody add trumpets at f but still keep them warm not over pushing the sound to epic. I would rely more on the use of orchestration and color to cause dynamic contrast. If we hear just loud all the time, the ear gets used to it, fatigue, and the climax sounds like everything else. Overall the sound is too bright, rushed, and harsh, and needs to sound more warm, relaxed, refine, and the different areas need more balance: melody, harmony, counter-melody, accompaniment, and percussion.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jul 1, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> My friend, I applaud your attempt concerning rendering this famous work, but unfortunately I do not share everyone else's enthusiasm concerning the mock-up or arrangement. If this was your own new piece, I might have said,"Wonderful exciting march with some great melodies," but since I know this piece well through both performing and conducting I humbly offer these notes:
> 
> The percussion sounds like high schoolers playing too loudly while sight-reading, and the ryhthms are all over the place not precise especially at the beginning. Your cymbals and bass drum almost sound as though they are playing sycopations instead of "a 2..." The snare drum needs to take center stage becoming as melodic as a Tina Guo Legato Patch. We need to hear more expression in the part and the rolls need to sing out just like the hits. I would consider taking the glockenspiel out completely, because the piece simply doesn't need it. The mallet players normally only play marches when the conductor doesn't want them sitting around, so he lets them double the flute part. The bass drum and cymbal needs to sound more mature and less adding accent but not taking over the overall sound.
> 
> ...




Dude..that is a long post. Thank you taking such time to chime in. Honestly you need to pay me a case of beer when I really have to alter all this points you mentioned in your post. Such a posts reminds me on some few clients I have :D. Some interesting points here though. On some I definitely agree, some others I feel quite a bit different about I have to say. But as I know you are trumpet player by yourself I value your opinion and look those spots up in my mockup.

One side note: As I work very often -also in this case- upon request I have to consider (very strictly) what wishes / references my clients have and what they tell me in such case. Just for example: The dynamics in the different parts are lets say and we are honest to ourselves: overall almost of the same loudness and don´t reflect my personal attitude towards a real performance which _I would do probably differently when this would not be a matter of request for the media and I would produce such piece for my lets say private room pleasure. In the end it is with my stuff like that: I do, I got revisions, because others tell me etc. What I try to maintain is still a good sound, which at least in my opinion that piece sonically offers. Surerly some of the brass is not absolutely on spot when it comes to ensemble size etc. The piece isn´t perfect at all, I had not much time for that, practically Monday 2 hours, Tuesday 2 hours. That is no excuse, but that is for such a short time the best I could achieve according to my grip with sampled orchestra.I know I could do it better with more time available.
_
When I am finished with my actual 2 projects I am gonna take some time at least to implement some of the things you mentioned. promise!

Anyways cool that there are contrasts in opinions here as this helps me and makes it interesting to have a disscussion.


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## rgarber (Jul 1, 2016)

Sorry to chime in here again but I have to disagree with the long post, no offense to the poster, but those things mentioned, I would disagree with most of the issues and only suggest a tweaking. Not to mention my original post took into consideration if the guy is that good to create such a believable rendering as this, I'm certain if not positive he can figure anything else to do for himself. Alex, it's the first time I've heard a recorded march sound like it's in the same room as the listener and I wished they all did the classics more like that then the traditional offerings. - Rich


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## Rodney Money (Jul 1, 2016)

rgarber said:


> Sorry to chime in here again but I have to disagree with the long post, no offense to the poster, but those things mentioned, I would disagree with most of the issues and only suggest a tweaking. Not to mention my original post took into consideration if the guy is that good to create such a believable rendering as this, I'm certain if not positive he can figure anything else to do for himself. Alex, it's the first time I've heard a recorded march sound like it's in the same room as the listener and I wished they all did the classics more like that then the traditional offerings. - Rich


Then I would have to respectfully say listen to more live ensembles like you did in your youth or study how marches should be interpreted, because you can clearly hear that this sounds like samples especially in the percussion and brass from the very first measure. No trombone section in the world would sound so thin and raspy like those Hollywood Trombones performing this march, and the snare drum would play a more leadership role while the bass drum and cymbals would blend more adding color and being felt more than heard. And no disrespect to Alex, but no conductor would let his brass play those short, loud aggressive stabs in a Sousa march like that. Good to meet you Rich, I'm Money btw, lol.


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## Rodney Money (Jul 1, 2016)

rgarber said:


> Not to mention my original post took into consideration if the guy is that good to create such a believable rendering as this, I'm certain if not positive he can figure anything else to do for himself Rich


We all need help, a 2nd ear, no matter the talent.


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## patrick76 (Jul 1, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> We all need help, a 2nd ear, no matter the talent.


Some interesting points in your original response. After listening to a live performance recording I noticed some of the things you mentioned, however to those of us not conducting Sousa marches, I think the sample rendering is very passable. I suppose it comes down to a question of how close he would like get to the real thing 
and when the point of diminishing returns is reached regarding time vs results (and what it sounds like to the intended listener). Agreed that a 2nd ear is very valuable.. especially one that is experienced with the style in question.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jul 4, 2016)

HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY, GUYS))


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## Rodney Money (Jul 4, 2016)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY, GUYS))



Yeah man, rock on!


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## rgarber (Jul 4, 2016)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY, GUYS))




New version? Sounds totally awesome! I was gonna add before this that I thought to get a perspective on where Money was coming from is to listen to the old Victory At Sea tv series where a number of marches were used. Was it Richard Rodgers? But he had a very symphonic approach to all the pieces played and the music is just awesome to listen to. - Rich


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