# Sample Modeling Brass Horns, how to make them sound huge?



## DANIELE (Jan 4, 2018)

Hi all, I love Sample Modeling instruments (as I said many times) and I'm trying to achieve something especially with horns.

Infact, playing them directly without EQ or reverb results in a pretty dry sound which is nice to work with.

For Star Wars like music they sound pretty well by adding some reverb in insert.

I know already about insert and not send tecnique or about TODD AO etc...

However I have some difficulties to achieve the sound I heard on some YouTube videos. 
I'm really having a hard time trying to get these results.

I would also like to get another result by working on them. I hear some differences by directly comparing them with the sound from 4 Spitfire Symphonic Brass Horns or with 4 Berlin Brass Horns. I like SM brass because of the extreme playability and dynamic range (that Spitfire or BB don't have) and I would like to transform them to get different results.

Is there anyone that could help me to achieve that results? Maybe there something I'm doing wrong. The sound I get is pretty metallic or too loud but not huge as I wish.

There something unnatural expecially with horns, trumpets and trombones seems better 
even if there is something wrong there too.

Did someone accidentally do some experiment or know how to treat them?

Thank you to all of you.


----------



## Øivind (Jan 4, 2018)

Do you have any links to videos where you hear anyone use only the SM horns and a link to your sound so we can listen to the difference and what you are aiming for?

I would guess you would need to do combinations. Trombone, Bassoon, Tuba, Oboe, Trumpet etc to get that extra ompf!


----------



## Silence-is-Golden (Jan 4, 2018)

there is a video that Blakus has done, where he shows somewhat the reverb, routing and sound of the sm brass trumpet if I recall correctly.
If you do a search on his channel you will find it.

edit: it is Mixing - Template Walkthrough 3

maybe that is what you are looking for.


----------



## leon chevalier (Jan 4, 2018)

I love SM brass but they are not the best when it come to "hugeness". I remember Blakus saying in one of his video that he has stop using sm brass for big ensemble sound. All the epic/trailer libraries are quite wet.

I did some tests a while ago, that gave some pleasant results (but not as good as a wet lib) I've layered SM brass with the free angry brass:
http://performancesamples.com/legacyselection/ (sorry I did not keep and audio example of those tests)

I did something like:

The 4 SM horns > eq to reduce low freq and very high ones> convolution reverb (small or medium room) > into Bus 1

Angry brass horn (no fx) > into Bus 1

Bus 1> algo reverb with a long tail to glue the two lib and to create the hugeness

Maybe it's not what you're looking for but this can give you some new ideas.


----------



## DANIELE (Jan 4, 2018)

oivind_rosvold said:


> Do you have any links to videos where you hear anyone use only the SM horns and a link to your sound so we can listen to the difference and what you are aiming for?
> 
> I would guess you would need to do combinations. Trombone, Bassoon, Tuba, Oboe, Trumpet etc to get that extra ompf!



Thank you.
Sure, I'll do as soon as I can.

I want to get this sound from horns alone because I don't think Spitfire or OT use other instruments to get the sound they have in a patch called "Horns".

I know that brass used in combination (I still have to learn much about it) could get a very big sound but I'm trying to work on single instruments right know because I want to learn how to achieve the maximum performance possible from every instrument of the orchestra. I trying to study orchestration and I'm looking for good courses for the combination purpose.

Sorry if I'm making mistakes in writing, english is not my mother language and I'm trying to explain some difficult stuff.



Silence-is-Golden said:


> there is a video that Blakus has done, where he shows somewhat the reverb, routing and sound of the sm brass trumpet if I recall correctly.
> If you do a search on his channel you will find it.
> 
> edit: it is Mixing - Template Walkthrough 3
> ...



Thank you, I know that video. He get a pretty good result and it is good for certain purposes but I'm trying to reach a big sound (epic brass like sound).

However I did not manage to get the exact result shown in his video. I see that he cut low frequencies with EQ to emulate distance but high frequencies should be the first ones that are lost by moving far from the sound source.

I feel like I could get very big results with this great instruments thanks to their flexibility so I feel frustrated to not be able to get this.


----------



## DANIELE (Jan 4, 2018)

leon chevalier said:


> I love SM brass but they are not the best when it come to "hugeness". I remember Blakus saying in one of his video that he has stop using sm brass for big ensemble sound. All the epic/trailer libraries are quite wet.
> 
> I did some tests a while ago, that gave some pleasant results (but not as good as a wet lib) I've layered SM brass with the free angry brass:
> http://performancesamples.com/legacyselection/ (sorry I did not keep and audio example of those tests)
> ...



Thank you. I'll listen to it after work.

Well ok, but wet libraries are made with dry instruments in some hall with some microfone at some distances from the source so the final result is a combination of recording, sampling and processing. I should be able to do this on a dry sound as they are able to do it.

Maybe I have to duplicate the number of instruments going for 8 horns but is not a question of number I think. For example I listened to the sound of 12 horns library from Cinesamples and this is the sound I would to reach.

I don't want to use an ensemble patch, I'm trying to learn orchestration and I want to write as realistically as possible with midi. This is why I'm trying to get those results (in addition to the fact that SM libraries offers flexibility and playability as I just said).


----------



## Janos McKennitt (Jan 4, 2018)

I use SM Brass very often. And for me a weakness is the horn "ensemble" (when you create one). What works very well with trumpets and trombones is a little bit cumbersome with the horns. I use VSS for the staging of the instruments and a simple Cubase Reverb for the tail. But when it comes to ensembles I like to stack the 4 SM patches with a VSL Horn Ensemble (the Download Instrument for about 50 bucks). It is itself recorded dry and you can handle it pretty much like SM.
Also I like to increase the width of the VSS Preset of the SM horns a little bit.

Edit:
Oh, by the way: I think it is very hard to get a sound like CineBrass out of SM. I think (but that's much guessing) they put into their ensembles patches a lot of processing. I lately listen to a recording of the Berlin Philharmonics playing Gustav Mahlers 3. Symphony. There are 8 Horns in it - and even when they played forte they didn't sound like CineBrass 6 Horns.


----------



## Saxer (Jan 4, 2018)

Mike Vertas Template Balancing masterclass is very helpful. Highly recommended.

https://mikeverta.com/product/online-masterclass-template-balancing/


----------



## DANIELE (Jan 4, 2018)

Janos McKennitt said:


> I use SM Brass very often. And for me a weakness is the horn "ensemble" (when you create one). What works very well with trumpets and trombones is a little bit cumbersome with the horns. I use VSS for the staging of the instruments and a simple Cubase Reverb for the tail. But when it comes to ensembles I like to stack the 4 SM patches with a VSL Horn Ensemble (the Download Instrument for about 50 bucks). It is itself recorded dry and you can handle it pretty much like SM.
> Also I like to increase the width of the VSS Preset of the SM horns a little bit.
> 
> Edit:
> Oh, by the way: I think it is very hard to get a sound like CineBrass out of SM. I think (but that's much guessing) they put into their ensembles patches a lot of processing. I lately listen to a recording of the Berlin Philharmonics playing Gustav Mahlers 3. Symphony. There are 8 Horns in it - and even when they played forte they didn't sound like CineBrass 6 Horns.



I'll listen to that piece.

I also use VSS for panning my instruments and I agree on the horns, in fact I'm focusing more on those just for this reason, I've the same feeling as you.

So are you telling me that SM Horns are more real and that other wet libraries are heavily processed a not so realistic?

I feel infact that SM brass are more like those that are heard in real orchestral pieces than those that are heard in trailer music.

Hans Zimmer used real horns in some track giving tham this huge sound, I don't know what kind of post processing he used. Perhaps it is also a question of where they were recorded.

Before leaving I want to be sure I have tried everything. I also hope that they will update these libraries with more features also oriented to the ensemble.


----------



## DANIELE (Jan 4, 2018)

Saxer said:


> Mike Vertas Template Balancing masterclass is very helpful. Highly recommended.
> 
> https://mikeverta.com/product/online-masterclass-template-balancing/



Thank you, I'll take a look.


----------



## Janos McKennitt (Jan 4, 2018)

DANIELE said:


> So are you telling me that SM Horns are more real and that other wet libraries are heavily processed a not so realistic?



No, not exactly. SM Horns are certainly realistic but others are not unrealistic. They have a different sound. If I make epic music, I will use CineBrass, no doubt, cause that is the sound that I need and for what they are produced. 
But for a - lets say "William-ish" - style of music, I would prefer SM. It always depends on what you need.

And Hans Zimmer horns are a special thing. I heard rumors that he recorded some twelve horns in different position to get this kind of sound. I'm sure he knows exactly where to place microphons and instruments. But I guess this can't be really replaced by stacking samples. And for sure: his Brass section is recorded alone without strings or any other instruments, so the sound can be prepared afterwards. 

Just one last thing: I like your way of thinking, to produce everything as authentic as possible. But don't forget: we all are dealing with samples. So you have to use tricks to get them sound like you want it to. In case of real musicians you can say "play this more harsh / soft / aggressive, etc." and you will get the same line played in a different way. Your samples will always sound the same and you have to "fake" to get the sound you want.


----------



## DANIELE (Jan 4, 2018)

Janos McKennitt said:


> No, not exactly. SM Horns are certainly realistic but others are not unrealistic. They have a different sound. If I make epic music, I will use CineBrass, no doubt, cause that is the sound that I need and for what they are produced.
> But for a - lets say "William-ish" - style of music, I would prefer SM. It always depends on what you need.
> 
> And Hans Zimmer horns are a special thing. I heard rumors that he recorded some twelve horns in different position to get this kind of sound. I'm sure he knows exactly where to place microphons and instruments. But I guess this can't be really replaced by stacking samples. And for sure: his Brass section is recorded alone without strings or any other instruments, so the sound can be prepared afterwards.
> ...



I know I have to do some tricks to reach some level of realism but I like the idea of limiting their use as much as possible, the SM libraries help a lot in this.

Moreover the SM libraries have a dynamic range that no other sampled instrument I know has. A sampled instrument has some dynamics sampled and the others are obtained through crossfading. Especially when it comes to ff or fff many libraries out there are weak and unable to pierce trough the orchestra like real instruments do.

These are the reasons why I prefer to use the SM tools in every situation. It's a shame we can't do more with those fantastic instruments, I hope for a great update this year as they teased on SM forum.

About HZ recordings he said (in his masterclass which I own) that they recorded many horns in differend positions as you said and he explains a little bit how they did although they do not go into detail. Definitely I can not afford to do it. 

I like to do some trailer/epic stuff but I'm moving on a more classical composing and I would like to compose as John Williams (for example), I'm studying after work and sometime by night all I can do.


----------



## DANIELE (Jan 4, 2018)

omiroad said:


> I really want to use SM (mostly) exclusively as well, so I appreciate the adventurous path you're taking. ^-^



Thank you, I hope this path leads somewhere. 

Maybe if I could find some information on how they get that results on these libraries I could try to emulate this by mixing instruments at different distances using the Virtual Soundstage included with the library.


----------



## maestro2be (Jan 4, 2018)

Daniele,

Can you post a link to an example of the sound you're talking about where it's very obvious and exposed? As in, the end goal you're trying to achieve?


----------



## NoamL (Jan 5, 2018)

@DANIELE

Could you upload the following at dynamic levels 0, 18, 36, 54, 73, 91, 109, 127? Just copy the MIDI region over eight times and each time with a new dynamic level flat across the passage. Don't change the level of buzz or any other controller, just dynamics.







This will help me give you some reference points as to how your SM Brass compare to real instr / other sample libs.

I won't have time to get to it until Monday though. Thx -Noam


----------



## NoamL (Jan 5, 2018)

DANIELE said:


> Especially when it comes to ff or fff many libraries out there are weak



I agree with this. These are my observed top dynamic levels for the horns in my template

_*fff* - _Trailer Horns, Jasper Blunk Bells Up Horns
_*ff* - _Hollywood Brass Horns, Jasper Blunk Angry Horns
_*f+* - _Ross Sampson a2 Horns
_*f* - _Berlin Brass Horns
_*mf*+ - _Auddict Octohorn
_*mf
mp
p*_

These are true timbral dynamics, not just the out of the box volume.

Some libraries have much more limited dynamic range than others on this eight point scale - and again, the point here is not the number of layers but the span...

Auddict's Octohorn, for instance, only spans mp to mf+. While Hollywood Brass spans mp to ff. 

As a quick fix for your SM Brass problems you can try layering them with @Jasper Blunk Angry Brass (you can get it for free, www.performancesamples.com)


----------



## DANIELE (Jan 5, 2018)

Sure I'll post it asap. I think I could do it in the weekend, thank you so much for your help. I'll try to post also some links to video references or similar.

My Soundcloud is actually full, what service can I use to host some audio sample?

I'll try also Angry Brass as you suggest and as suggested from leon chevalier before.


----------



## Øivind (Jan 5, 2018)

you can try https://clyp.it/ i don't think you even need an account and the sound quality i think is better than soundcloud.


----------



## DANIELE (Jan 5, 2018)

NoamL said:


> @DANIELE
> 
> Could you upload the following at dynamic levels 0, 18, 36, 54, 73, 91, 109, 127? Just copy the MIDI region over eight times and each time with a new dynamic level flat across the passage. Don't change the level of buzz or any other controller, just dynamics.
> 
> ...



I noticed number 241 up here. Do I have to play it at 241 bpm?


----------



## DANIELE (Jan 5, 2018)

Here they are:

1) 1 Horn, 120 bpm: https://clyp.it/twgidvgz

2) 1 Horn, 241 bpm (just in case ): https://clyp.it/3rfbkkiv

3) 4 Horns in unison, 120 bpm: https://clyp.it/1vsejl0a

3) 4 Horns in unison, 241 bpm: https://clyp.it/ostinp5d

Every parameter is at default, I used the dynamic levels you asked for.

Tell me if you can download them or listen to them without problems.

Here's some references:

Cinebrass Twelve Horns Ensemble (ok this is not a direct reference but gives an idea):


Here you can listen to 6 horns longs from Spitfire (not a direct comparison but gives the idea too):


Here a more direct comparison (Berlin Brass 4 Horns Ensemble):


Also here I like to perform staccatos like them (or better), it is not so easy to perform staccatos with SM libraries, it is not only a question of note length. I have to study some more to perform them well (any advice is highly appreciated).

Here another example with Cinebrass:


Here 8 Horns from NI Symphonic Brass:


Someone is better and everyone has is own features. These references is useful to understand what it can be achieved with horns and how they could sound loud and huge.

Thank you for your help.


----------



## leon chevalier (Jan 6, 2018)

@DANIELE , you aroused my curiosity so I've done again the layering of SM Horns with Angry Brass Horns :

(Both are playing the same midi at the same time. the second time is one octave upper).
Not perfect, but definitely useful for guys like me who do not have an "epic" brass library


----------



## DANIELE (Jan 7, 2018)

leon chevalier said:


> @DANIELE , you aroused my curiosity so I've done again the layering of SM Horns with Angry Brass Horns :
> 
> (Both are playing the same midi at the same time. the second time is one octave upper).
> Not perfect, but definitely useful for guys like me who do not have an "epic" brass library




Yeah, it sounds great. I'll try to achieve the sound (with your help) only from that library, if I find out that it is impossible then I'll go with layering.


----------



## leon chevalier (Jan 7, 2018)

DANIELE said:


> Yeah, it sounds great. I'll try to achieve the sound (with your help) only from that library, if I find out that it is impossible then I'll go with layering.



I'm afraid It's gonna be very difficult. It's not scientific, but that's how I see this problem:

Brass instruments are very loud (at high dynamics). All those loud instruments excite, not only them self, but also the room. The walls, the chairs, the tables, the people, everything start to vibrate, absorb, reflect the air waves from the instrument. The "fat brassy sound" we hear (or record) is made from the direct sound of the instrument and all those reflexions

Too me the reverbs we use, algo or convo, fall short when it come to get that brassy effect. That's why totally dry instrument that has to be used with reverb fx, are splendid for quiet passage that do not excite much the room but not so much for super loud brammm !

Anyway, if you want to try the layering approach, a few tips (for what it worth) :

I try do have a kind of xfade between the two instruments like this :
p > f : we hear most sample modelling.
f > fff : we hear most angry brass.

It can be easily done by adjusting each volume for each passage, but I wanted to have a playable patch, without post midi editing.

So I've compressed the SM horns but only at higher dynamics, so that let angry brass come first at higher dynamics.

for angry brass I did the opposite. I've edited the low pass filter to be on most of the time, and off only at higher dynamics.




(It's already their, you don't have to add anything, just edit the curve) that way you get a smooth "crossfade like" between the two instruments.

I've only used two SM horns. More did not bring anything, just more volume.

I realized that AB had almost no bass, so I had to remove a lot of bass from SM to give the impression that both were at the same distance.

I've used Eareverb for SM placement and reverb (studio B preset).

I did not work on attacks and releases that need to be more coherent, too me it'is what do not work in my audio exemple.

Good lucks in your search and I will be very curious to hear your results.

Leon


----------



## DANIELE (Jan 7, 2018)

leon chevalier said:


> I'm afraid It's gonna be very difficult. It's not scientific, but that's how I see this problem:
> 
> Brass instruments are very loud (at high dynamics). All those loud instruments excite, not only them self, but also the room. The walls, the chairs, the tables, the people, everything start to vibrate, absorb, reflect the air waves from the instrument. The "fat brassy sound" we hear (or record) is made from the direct sound of the instrument and all those reflexions
> 
> ...



Thank you for the detailed description I'll try it for sure when I will get to layering.

As you're saying there are a set of causes that produce that sound, I just have to understand which and how.


----------



## synthetic (Mar 20, 2018)

I like SM horns as a layer on top of Spitfire or Cinebrass. I haven’t gotten a big ensemble sound from them, certainly not the EP1C hybrid sound. Great for solos though.


----------



## DANIELE (Mar 21, 2018)

synthetic said:


> I like SM horns as a layer on top of Spitfire or Cinebrass. I haven’t gotten a big ensemble sound from them, certainly not the EP1C hybrid sound. Great for solos though.



I think I'm reaching very good results, I'll let you listen to something as soon as possible.

I've done an hybrid track for a project and I think they sounds great, I've to enrich horns with trumpets and trombones sometimes but I think it works.

I'm trying to follow a new way of composing by dividing the process in two part

1) I try to compose all the track by orchestrating the sketch with a realistic number of instruments/tracks;

2) I reinforce them with ensemble patches or similar when I couldn't reach the sound I want with "normal" instruments.


----------



## leon chevalier (Mar 21, 2018)

Hey @DANIELE since we had this discussion I made a tutorial on how to build a section with sample modeling brass, without external sample or FX :


I'm curious to hear your results !


----------



## DANIELE (Mar 21, 2018)

leon chevalier said:


> Hey @DANIELE since we had this discussion I made a tutorial on how to build a section with sample modeling brass, without external sample or FX :
> 
> 
> I'm curious to hear your results !




Great, thank you. I'll watch it this evening after work.


----------



## Saxer (Mar 21, 2018)

That's what I do: early reflections inside the SM instrument itself. Logic EQ to cut some top and low end. Added Lexicon tail. Lexi-Verb is on an aux track, lend level from the instrument track is about -4,7dB. Always a matter of taste...
Four horns in the audio example (twice the same phrase played in different dynamics using windcontroller). Sorry for the sloppy timing... (the windcontroller has a lot of latency).

SM-Horns.mp3






[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/sm-horns-mp3.12495/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## Guffy (Mar 21, 2018)

Posted a snippet a while back where i layered SM Horns with Hollywood Brass Horns. I think SM layered in gives it a nice omph and more of a natural attack (with some massaging).



I have to say though, nowadays i've pretty much abandoned Sample Modelling. It's alot of reverb work, midi massaging etc to get it where you want, and i always ended up in endless cycles of redoing parts over and over, and after fiddling with reverb for a good 30 minutes, you don't really have a clue what you're listening to anymore, so when you get back to it, it doesn't sound that awesome anymore.


----------



## Rctec (Mar 21, 2018)

DANIELE said:


> I'll listen to that piece.
> 
> I also use VSS for panning my instruments and I agree on the horns, in fact I'm focusing more on those just for this reason, I've the same feeling as you.
> 
> ...



... No post processing. Just great players with great instruments at AIR. The hall - especially with French Horns - is 50% of the sound. And the players will know how to use the acoustic to their advantage. And either Geoff Foster or Alan Meyerson will know how to mic them. But it’s a very simple setup: Decca Tree, outriggers, Gallery. Except for ‘special’ Ideas, where I write to the strength of the architecture (in “Batman”, the Horns are in the gallery above the microphones...),one big difference is that different players use different mouthpieces. L.A. uses bigger ones, which is good for warm sounds and very tough on the players to make a ‘blatty’ Sound, while London uses much tighter emboshures which give a brighter and punchier sound. I decide what type of score I want to write and than use the right players for the sound I’m after.
I feel there is no artificial reverb that can come close to the true sound of an Abbey Road 1 or AIR’s Hall. You are dealing with an ‘anonymous’ player, heavily manipulated, while I just go the cheap and painless way: Book your favorite musicians in your favorite environment. Instruments are like their players: individual sonic character. And the amount of crazy, swirling chorusing that goes on because of the architecture of AIR is a huge part of the sound....
I think for the price of a good library you could possibly sample your own....
-Hz-


----------



## Saxer (Mar 21, 2018)

Ok, that's the easy way


----------



## rottoy (Mar 21, 2018)

Rctec said:


> while I just go the cheap and painless way: Book your favorite musicians in your favorite environment.


So I can hire some LSO players at AIR for a tuppence?


----------



## NoamL (Mar 21, 2018)

Fugdup said:


> Posted a snippet a while back where i layered SM Horns with Hollywood Brass Horns. I think SM layered in gives it a nice omph and more of a natural attack (with some massaging).
> 
> 
> 
> I have to say though, nowadays i've pretty much abandoned Sample Modelling. It's alot of reverb work, midi massaging etc to get it where you want, and i always ended up in endless cycles of redoing parts over and over, and after fiddling with reverb for a good 30 minutes, you don't really have a clue what you're listening to anymore, so when you get back to it, it doesn't sound that awesome anymore.




Funnily enough I think the first sounds better. The second one has too much low mids. You can get horns to sound brassier by boosting around 4k-7k... somewhere in there... depends on the material.


----------



## DANIELE (Mar 21, 2018)

leon chevalier said:


> Hey @DANIELE since we had this discussion I made a tutorial on how to build a section with sample modeling brass, without external sample or FX :
> 
> 
> I'm curious to hear your results !




Ok, I watched it and I have to say...very well done and very useful?

The horn anyway is a bit more difficult to configure than the trumpets or the trombones.

I tryed something you show in this video but in the last iteration I put to 0 ER and PD and I worked from the outside.

I think I need some more work but the only way to enhance my results is to keep composing and try. I came to good result for me right now. You have to give me some time to prepare something to post.

I think I'll go for different settings based on which type of track I want to build (for example trailer music or maybe Star Wars music).



Saxer said:


> That's what I do: early reflections inside the SM instrument itself. Logic EQ to cut some top and low end. Added Lexicon tail. Lexi-Verb is on an aux track, lend level from the instrument track is about -4,7dB. Always a matter of taste...
> Four horns in the audio example (twice the same phrase played in different dynamics using windcontroller). Sorry for the sloppy timing... (the windcontroller has a lot of latency).
> 
> SM-Horns.mp3
> ...



I think this sound fit better with William-ish type soundtracks.

I heavily post-processed the sound to make it sound huge by wetting it so much. Maybe it could sound very far but i think it fits well some type of music. Anyway I'm going in parallel with an heavily processed track and a dry track to the brass bus to adjust the amount as I wish.



Fugdup said:


> Posted a snippet a while back where i layered SM Horns with Hollywood Brass Horns. I think SM layered in gives it a nice omph and more of a natural attack (with some massaging).
> 
> 
> 
> I have to say though, nowadays i've pretty much abandoned Sample Modelling. It's alot of reverb work, midi massaging etc to get it where you want, and i always ended up in endless cycles of redoing parts over and over, and after fiddling with reverb for a good 30 minutes, you don't really have a clue what you're listening to anymore, so when you get back to it, it doesn't sound that awesome anymore.




Very good sounding horns. I can't abandon SM, these libraries are the only one that gives me so much freedom. They needs some adjustements or improvements but they are great to play.

As I said before I want to do everything's possible to reach the objective and once you are used to work with these libraries you can work faster and better by focusing more on music and less on programming.


----------



## DANIELE (Mar 21, 2018)

Rctec said:


> ... No post processing. Just great players with great instruments at AIR. The hall - especially with French Horns - is 50% of the sound. And the players will know how to use the acoustic to their advantage. And either Geoff Foster or Alan Meyerson will know how to mic them. But it’s a very simple setup: Decca Tree, outriggers, Gallery. Except for ‘special’ Ideas, where I write to the strength of the architecture (in “Batman”, the Horns are in the gallery above the microphones...),one big difference is that different players use different mouthpieces. L.A. uses bigger ones, which is good for warm sounds and very tough on the players to make a ‘blatty’ Sound, while London uses much tighter emboshures which give a brighter and punchier sound. I decide what type of score I want to write and than use the right players for the sound I’m after.
> I feel there is no artificial reverb that can come close to the true sound of an Abbey Road 1 or AIR’s Hall. You are dealing with an ‘anonymous’ player, heavily manipulated, while I just go the cheap and painless way: Book your favorite musicians in your favorite environment. Instruments are like their players: individual sonic character. And the amount of crazy, swirling chorusing that goes on because of the architecture of AIR is a huge part of the sound....
> I think for the price of a good library you could possibly sample your own....
> -Hz-



Thanks for the answer.

I remember some of the things you said from your recent masterclass. I wasn't sure about post processing anyway.

It's cristal clear that real intruments played by real people are far superior to any sampled lib, but unfortunately they are out of my reach. I'm employed as electronic engineer and to music, although It's a real burning passion, I can dedicate, mostly at night, only what remains after my job and time for the family I'm building up, I'm gonna marry as soon as we finish refurbishing our house.

I live and work in Florence (maybe you visited it when you came here for the Inferno movie) and if anything is still in my pocket once we move in our house I plan to build a small studio in it. That's the maximum I can afford for the moment so I have to focus mostly on composition, trying to squeeze as much as I can from the sampled libraries I have.

Consider also that I have to divide the little time I have among the full range of tasks needed to make music, programming, composing, orchestrating, sketching, mixing, processing, mastering and all the many activities needed to build a good sounding track (I guess you know it better than me).


----------



## leon chevalier (Mar 21, 2018)

DANIELE said:


> Ok, I watched it and I have to say...very well done and very useful?
> 
> The horn anyway is a bit more difficult to configure than the trumpets or the trombones.
> 
> ...


Take your time, and show us your result when you're ready


----------



## DANIELE (Mar 21, 2018)

leon chevalier said:


> Take your time, and show us your result when you're ready



Sure, maybe together we could reach better results.


----------



## leon chevalier (Mar 22, 2018)

DANIELE said:


> Sure, maybe together we could reach better results.


I plan to share all my sample modeling tweaking in some other videos... So everything will be at your disposal !


----------



## Rctec (Mar 22, 2018)

DANIELE said:


> Thanks for the answer.
> 
> I remember some of the things you said from your recent masterclass. I wasn't sure about post processing anyway.
> 
> ...


You probably think I’m just some rich twat removed from reality. That is probably correct, but I didn’t get to be where I am, had I believed in reality too firmly.
Florence! You live in Florence?!? You are lucky! I’ve spent quite a bit of time while we where making “Hannibal” in Florence (and yes, “Inferno”) and you have some of the most impressive accoutic spaces in the world. I think Brunollesci was a better acoustician than any of the current studio designers... Forget the dome. You can’t get in, it’s much too big but - do you know The chapel for the Pazzi family? That would be perfect...if...they let you use it. I spend hours in there just making sounds and studying the reverb trails. but I completely understand your problem. If you have no money, no time...you have to have friends. And irresirable ideas. But may I suggest finding a great space in your city with a vaulted ceiling that you can “borrow” (convince them it’s for Art) and asking the best students from your local music schools to come and play - or sample - as an experiment? When I started out (and actually to this day) we musicians always helped each other out for a good glass of wine (no problem there for you in Florence)... i really can’t think of a better place to be right at the center of art and Music. We actually wrote and performed a “Ficticious” opera in the film. Extraordinary sound. Now you’ve got me interested in doing some recording and sampling in your town with your musicians. To be honest, I’ve been trying to imitate the sound of that chapel ever since... it’s a looong story, but the acoustic space is totally imprinted in my memory...
I think I’m planning a reckless summer...but if you feel this is at all interesting to you - I know how to do the sampling, you supply the vino. Seriously!
Best,
-Hz-
Oh, if it helps, French Horns are really easy to sample (once you get them to play in tune...)


----------



## DANIELE (Mar 22, 2018)

Rctec said:


> You probably think I’m just some rich twat removed from reality. That is probably correct, but I didn’t get to be where I am, had I believed in reality too firmly.
> Florence! You live in Florence?!? You are lucky! I’ve spent quite a bit of time while we where making “Hannibal” in Florence (and yes, “Inferno”) and you have some of the most impressive accoutic spaces in the world. I think Brunollesci was a better acoustician than any of the current studio designers... Forget the dome. You can’t get in, it’s much too big but - do you know The chapel for the Pazzi family? That would be perfect...if...they let you use it. I spend hours in there just making sounds and studying the reverb trails. but I completely understand your problem. If you have no money, no time...you have to have friends. And irresirable ideas. But may I suggest finding a great space in your city with a vaulted ceiling that you can “borrow” (convince them it’s for Art) and asking the best students from your local music schools to come and play - or sample - as an experiment? When I started out (and actually to this day) we musicians always helped each other out for a good glass of wine (no problem there for you in Florence)... i really can’t think of a better place to be right at the center of art and Music. We actually wrote and performed a “Ficticious” opera in the film. Extraordinary sound. Now you’ve got me interested in doing some recording and sampling in your town with your musicians. To be honest, I’ve been trying to imitate the sound of that chapel ever since... it’s a looong story, but the acoustic space is totally imprinted in my memory...
> I think I’m planning a reckless summer...but if you feel this is at all interesting to you - I know how to do the sampling, you supply the vino. Seriously!
> Best,
> ...



Believe me, I'm a heck of a dreamer. And I dream in large. Being not, i wouldn't be able to reach the stage where I'm now. Not that I want to compare with a professional, it woud be laughable, but considering that I'm mostly self taught and I had to work hard overtime for it, I'm pretty satisfied of myself.
Unfortunately, here in Italy, reality, just to remember you that it's still there, took the bad habit to strike back and bite hard, so once you manage to get a job you have to defend it with all your nails and teeth.
I was born in Rome, and live in Florence, two of the most beautiful cities in the world, I'm proud of this, but believe me, as the ancient romans said "nomina sunt omina" so whenever you are in front of a closed door, it's enough that you spell your "magic" words and any portal will open wide. Mine don't work as well... 
Anyhow, if you ever manage to come in Florence, I'll have my pause in august, it would be a pleasure to meet you. I'm often hunting in youtube to see professionals at work and having the possibility to see one live and, why not, try to steal some tricks of the trade, would be great. And...I can assure "plenty" of wine. :D

By the way, I think you would be surprised to know the kind of job I'm doing. Actually I work for the city of Florence itself. I could send you privately a video to show what our company is doing for the city, I think you will like it.

Saluti dall'Italia.
Daniele


----------



## germancomponist (Mar 22, 2018)

Rctec said:


> .... I think I’m planning a reckless summer...but if you feel this is at all interesting to you - I know how to do the sampling, you supply the vino. Seriously! ...



 Klasse!


----------



## givemenoughrope (Mar 22, 2018)

Great posts up there. I've been to Florence to basically eat and do nothing three times in the last couple years and I found myself clapping and snapping my fingers in every chapel, museum or any building I walked through...they shushed me in the Santo Spirito Basilica...just thinking about what horns or saxes or synths reamped would sound like here or there. I actually walked by a brass band playing themes from Malena and Cinema Paradiso in a small chapel that sounded perfect. Stood there for 30 mins while the lady got bored. A friend of mine recently lived there bc he worked out that renting longterm via Airbnb was way cheaper than his digs in Nashville or most other places. My rig is "portable." Between this all of this and season three of Hannibal...I want to go back. I hate the flight there but so what.


----------



## givemenoughrope (Mar 22, 2018)

DANIELE said:


> Actually I work for the city of Florence itself.



So couldn't you work some "magic" and reamp some tracks? I'd love to hear a Prophet 12 in a number of buildings there.


----------



## DANIELE (Mar 22, 2018)

givemenoughrope said:


> So couldn't you work some "magic" and reamp some tracks? I'd love to hear a Prophet 12 in a number of buildings there.



Unfortunately the work I do doesn't give me access to buildings except for very rare events.


----------



## givemenoughrope (Mar 22, 2018)

DANIELE said:


> Unfortunately the work I do doesn't give me access to buildings except for very rare events.



but maybe your work gives you access to someone who does? I'm reaching but it's just an incredible resource to have if possible.


----------



## DANIELE (Mar 23, 2018)

givemenoughrope said:


> but maybe your work gives you access to someone who does? I'm reaching but it's just an incredible resource to have if possible.



Maybe, but I still have to find out. By my experience and by knowing how the things go here in Italy I don't think it is so obvious.


----------



## DANIELE (May 5, 2018)

Hi all, just a little update, I'm very busy right now but I'm still working (in the free time) on SM Horns, right now I'm finding out that using one trombone layered with them give more bite to the sound. Infact by listening to some soundtracks I think that it is often used in real orchestras too. When I will be ready to share with you the results I'll post them here.


----------

