# Pop Orchestration



## danika (Dec 11, 2011)

I've taken the orchestration course at Berklee which was mainly oriented towards classical orchestration. What about orchestration books, courses, etc for pop music--not only for film and tv for also pop bands. Strings and horns, at least, seem to get used in practically every pop genre.


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## Daryl (Dec 11, 2011)

Good string "orchestration" is good string orchestration. If makes no difference whether it is classical or pop. There are few things to be aware of in pop (like not being too interesting) but it is the same as any other job. The strings are not the only thing in the arrangement, so you have to be sensitive to the rest of the ensemble.

D


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## Dietz (Dec 11, 2011)

I'm by no means a professional arranger, but let me add a few words from a mixing engineer's point of view:

- Forget about the double basses in 90% of all cases. If you really need the lower range, use cellos instead.

- Cellos, on the other hand, are very similar in colour (and sometimes in function) to distorted guitars. This might be good or bad, depending on context.

- Be very clear whether the strings should support or counteract the rest of the arrangement (especially in cases where they aren't meant to be the main feature a.k.a the "Cool! Strings!"-factor of the song).

- Smaller ensembles with a dry-ish, rough sound character will work much better than large "Hollywood" string sections, as long as you don't write for those super-kitschy diva ballads. ... they will be easier to edit, too ... o/~ 

- Make sure that the groove of the song allows for any rhythmical ideas you might have, especially when the strings should be played by a real section, not by samples. I have experienced quite a few cases where an actually masterful arrangement and/or a masterful string ensemble missed the goal idiomatically due to some benignant (read: classically influenced) ignorance regarding the difference between agogic and groove.

And something that's not so much seen from an engineer's POV: In most clichéd pop styles it's a good idea to avoid "sweet" classical harmony and/or melody structure. I worked on quite a few pop-productions with small, medium sized or large orchestras during the last decade (even some kind of Hip Hop with a full-blown 80 piece symphony orchestra), but what I liked most in a pop/rock context was a series of almost dodecaphony styled arrangements for a Japanese band. 

Kind regards,


/Dietz


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 11, 2011)

> Smaller ensembles with a dry-ish, rough sound character will work much better than large "Hollywood" string sections



That's also the characteristic traditional sound - probably just because string sessions are expensive.

^ A very general statement, of course, but I mean most "string dates" for records used pretty small ensembles (same with most TV shows). That meant not taking the violins extremely high, because they'd thin out.

^ Another general statement, of course, because there are exceptions.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 11, 2011)

danica, there was a great book by Don Sebesky around in the '70s. I wonder whether it's still available.


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## rayinstirling (Dec 11, 2011)

It sure is still available. I've got the 1994 edition Alfred Publishing Co. Inc.
I'm sure thru Amazon around 4 years ago.
Make sure you get the included CD edition.

Hey! that's a lot of sure's

There's even a kindle edition :lol:


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## MichaelL (Dec 12, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Dec 11 said:


> danica, there was a great book by Don Sebesky around in the '70s. I wonder whether it's still available.



+1 Don Sebesky "The Contemporary Arranger"

I still have my 1979 (Ouch!) edition.


http://www.amazon.com/Contemporary-Arranger-Definitive-Don-Sebesky/dp/0882840320 (http://www.amazon.com/Contemporary-Arra ... 0882840320)


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## danika (Dec 12, 2011)

rayinstirling @ Sun Dec 11 said:


> It sure is still available. I've got the 1994 edition Alfred Publishing Co. Inc.
> I'm sure thru Amazon around 4 years ago.
> Make sure you get the included CD edition.
> 
> ...



Getting it on my iPad was tempting. However, several reviews said good things about the demo CD which you don't get with the Kindle version. So I just ordered the regular version.


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## danika (Dec 12, 2011)

Dietz @ Sun Dec 11 said:


> I'm by no means a professional arranger, but let me add a few words from a mixing engineer's point of view:
> 
> - Forget about the double basses in 90% of all cases. If you really need the lower range, use cellos instead.
> 
> ...



Thanks. You confirmed a couple of things that I thought I've heard in pop orchestration. Also, it sounds to me like some pop strings sections have a fair amount of EQ applied as well as both EQ and compression for horn sections.


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## Dave Connor (Dec 12, 2011)

I thought Dietz made excellent useful points.

I would add that STYLE is everything and that there really aren't a lot of books that capture the many styles in Pop. So you have to listen to tracks that have basically what you're looking for. 

Keep in mind that you are usually hearing the MIX of an arrangement which may be much fuller than it ended up sounding on the record. This is very true with strings that may be very low generally and brought up at certain points in volume (often at transitional sections where there is no vocal or to add contrast and support to a section with vocal.) So you may want to write in a way that is supportive but contains "fills" around the vocal. Ask the producer what he/she wants and get as much info as you can.


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## Dietz (Dec 12, 2011)

danika @ Mon Dec 12 said:


> [...] Also, it sounds to me like some pop strings sections have a fair amount of EQ applied as well as both EQ and compression for horn sections.



Most definitely.

In pop, any kind of purism is out of place. Personally I tend to look at string and/or brass sections as _one_ instrument amongst many and treat them like that. "Compress, distort, hurray!", as a good friend of mine put it. =o ... that's exactly why I wrote that a healthy, raw and not too ambient basic sound will help a lot in most cases.

Kind regards,

/Dietz


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## danika (Dec 18, 2011)

I'm working through the Sebesky book, and while it's good solid stuff, it's pretty much limited to big band and jazz. I'm still looking for something more contemporary--something more like Harold Wheeler (Dancing with the Stars) or Ricky Minor (formerly American Idol) might do.


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## Arbee (Dec 19, 2011)

The best arranging book I ever bought when starting out in the, cough, late 70's was Mickey Baker's Complete Handbook for the Music Arranger (still available I think).

What I liked about it was that it provided the raw materials for arranging and orchestration without stylistic dogma (sorry, but that included Sebesky IMHO).

Anyway, just passing on in case it helps.


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## wst3 (Dec 19, 2011)

I believe I'd have enjoyed meeting Mickey Baker!

I've used his jazz guitar method since 1974 (is that really possible?), and picked up his arranging book a couple of years ago.

In both cases the material is quite complete, and arranged in a way that works for me.

And I LOVE his writing style...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 19, 2011)

Mickey Baker's book is a great overview. I've recommended it before too.

danika, everything in the Don Sebesky book is applicable to pop too.


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## JJP (Dec 19, 2011)

Most of the arranging on Dancing With the Stars is pretty straightforward big band type writing but without jazz harmonies (unless it's a jazz tune). Strings are covered by synths and a single live violin. Accordion for the tangos is almost always played on a synth. They have on a few occasions brought in extra strings and french horns for a special "classical" or "movie" week, but it's normally a set band.

One of the keys to expanding the color palette is the fact that the sax players all double on other woodwinds. You can instantly have a classical woodwind section with flute, soprano sax (covering oboe by employing a pinched tone), clarinet, and bassoon. The woodwinds are also used a lot to emulate or fill out synth sounds.

Also note that there are a lot of guitar-based tunes that are played by the band. These tunes will often be based around power chords. The horn voicings will usually add the third back in but voice it in a way that it is not emphasized. That's because without distortion, those chords sound weak without the third. On guitar, the harmonics of the distortion make full chords sound muddy, so guitarists will just play the root and fifth. That doesn't work as well with horns.


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## JimmyPoppa (Dec 20, 2011)

Hi All,

This is just a throw in to say that Harold Wheeler, the Music Director on Dancing With the Stars, a long time Broadway/Pop style Orchestrator (with a lo-o-o-ng list of credits), is also a really nice guy. He went out of his way to help me not too long ago, even taking the time to speak with me on the phone at length, even though he didn't know me from a hole in the wall. Sorry to jump the thread but I just wanted to publicly acknowledge him for that.

Be Well,

Jimmy


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## danika (Dec 20, 2011)

JJP @ Mon Dec 19 said:


> Most of the arranging on Dancing With the Stars is pretty straightforward big band type writing but without jazz harmonies (unless it's a jazz tune). Strings are covered by synths and a single live violin. Accordion for the tangos is almost always played on a synth. They have on a few occasions brought in extra strings and french horns for a special "classical" or "movie" week, but it's normally a set band.



Kind of surprised about the single violin. What synths do you use?



> One of the keys to expanding the color palette is the fact that the sax players all double on other woodwinds. You can instantly have a classical woodwind section with flute, soprano sax (covering oboe by employing a pinched tone), clarinet, and bassoon. The woodwinds are also used a lot to emulate or fill out synth sounds.



Interesting idea about mixing the woodwinds and saxes. I'll give it a try.



> Also note that there are a lot of guitar-based tunes that are played by the band. These tunes will often be based around power chords. The horn voicings will usually add the third back in but voice it in a way that it is not emphasized. That's because without distortion, those chords sound weak without the third. On guitar, the harmonics of the distortion make full chords sound muddy, so guitarists will just play the root and fifth. That doesn't work as well with horns.



I've also seen a fair amount of power-chord voicing for strings and brass. That's a good example of why following Sebesky's approach would be a diaster for modern pop. He tends to follow the typical Jazz practice of eliminating 5ths in voicings.


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## JimmyPoppa (Dec 21, 2011)

Here are a couple of Harold Wheeler Interviews where he talks about some of the approaches he uses for DWTS. These are puff pieces for news articles so he doesn't get into the technical details the way we might wish. Still, there might be some value here

http://www.nypost.com/p/entertainment/t ... ADpF3ohVSJ

http://www.chron.com/entertainment/arti ... 710674.php

Be Well,

Jimmy


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## JJP (Dec 21, 2011)

danika @ Tue Dec 20 said:


> Kind of surprised about the single violin. What synths do you use?


The keyboardist has a small rack, but you can see most of the synths right there on the show. The single violinist is there to add a bit of life and cover any solo parts. Watch the show and you'll see it really comes down to physical space on the stage.



> Interesting idea about mixing the woodwinds and saxes. I'll give it a try.


Note that by doubling, I mean the player doubles on another instrument, i.e. puts down the sax and picks up a flute, clarinet, etc. The show is played live so they can't multitrack and "double" in the orchestration sense. Think of it like the pit orchestra for a Broadway musical or awards show like the Oscars. If you're clever with how and when people switch instruments, you can get a lot of sounds.



> I've also seen a fair amount of power-chord voicing for strings and brass. That's a good example of why following Sebesky's approach would be a diaster for modern pop. He tends to follow the typical Jazz practice of eliminating 5ths in voicings.


I think Sebesky is a bit more subtle than that. It depends on the harmonic context. Jazz harmony uses a lot of added tensions (9ths, 13ths, etc), so you often have to substitute something because you don't have enough voices. The fifth is often an obvious choice because it provides the least harmonic information and color.

If you're talking about orchestrating rock guitar, there's often nothing but the root and fifth. You don't have to worry about eliminating voices. It's more about figuring out how you can emulate the guitar's tone which comes from the overtones of the guitar rig. That means looking at how to use your given ensemble to match the timbre and harmonics. Thus sometimes you end up adding voices. I'm sure Sebesky would do the same thing. (Actually I'm certain he would.)


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 21, 2011)

Pop Orchestration is a very broad term which suggests you're looking to do songs, not compositions, for orchestra. In that case, the Professional Orchestration series covers a lot of that ground. 

If pop is referring to more jazz oriented writing, then consider these books:
http://alexanderpublishing.com/Departments/Composing-and-Film-Scoring/Arranging.aspx (http://alexanderpublishing.com/Departme ... nging.aspx)

You might look at Mancini's Sounds and Scores. And if you can find it, Nelson Riddle's book. And then, still valid, is Russ Garcia's original book The Professional Arranger. 

What you must consider is that the sound of the great pop arrangers came from the concert literature. 

Nelson Riddle's sound was culled from La Mer, first movement, Cellos div a 4. 

So called "jazz voicings" for big band and strings are found in Debussy's Prelude to Afternoon of A Faune, RVW's Norfolk Rhapsody #1 in E Minor, and yes Mahler and Ravel, notably Daphnis and Chloe.


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## danika (Dec 22, 2011)

JimmyPoppa @ Wed Dec 21 said:


> Here are a couple of Harold Wheeler Interviews where he talks about some of the approaches he uses for DWTS. These are puff pieces for news articles so he doesn't get into the technical details the way we might wish. Still, there might be some value here
> 
> http://www.nypost.com/p/entertainment/t ... ADpF3ohVSJ
> 
> ...



Thanks for the links. You're right, mainly puff pieces, but still a few useful tidbits on orchestration here and there.


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## Beat Kaufmann (Jan 7, 2012)

Hi
If you like, watch this video, an arrangement of a famous Swiss Song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMAkPT9ggtg
It is an 1/2-pop piece and it shows more about mixing aspects.
Nevertheless, you will see some things which have been mentioned above.
*A)* Don't use the contra bass (together with an E-bass)
*B)* While you mix the orchestra as you do it with classic music you let the pop instruments in their room as we are used to (Don't integrate them in the concert hall)
*C)* It is important to place instruments on the virtual stage in "efficient" positions - so that the frequencies of different instruments can't cover each other. I reached this by using left and right, close and far...(upper video)
*D)* You can divide the music into 3 main points: 1. Melody, 2. Chords and 3. Rhythm.
It could be very interesting to use whole instrument sections for one of these 3 matters in pop-music. Example: Create the rhythm with the strings (supported by percussion of course) let play the brass instruments the chords and the woodwinds play the melody (the flute or some could play unison for more power). You will have a lot of possibilities with a whole orchestra (with an added band) to vary just these 3 points (melody, rhythm, chords).
*E)* Use the possibility of a second melody
*F)* Don't over-arrange. 
As further example: Amazing Grace - 6 different possibilities, which shall show point A) - F) 


Have fun

_Beat_


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