# SAE Institute, Audio Engineering diploma. Opinions?



## ein fisch (Jul 4, 2018)

does anyone have an opinion on that school? planning to go there next year but its very expensive (26.000$) so i wanna hear some opinions before i dive in

EDIT: what i forgot to mention. in case you have a negative opinion on it, explain why and any kind of alternative thats accessable for me would be welcome.


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## MatFluor (Jul 4, 2018)

I gave you my opinions in the chat already 
I'm interested what other's have to say


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## Desire Inspires (Jul 4, 2018)

Maybe.....


http://prosoundformula.com/is-audio-engineering-school-really-worth-it/


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## Scoremixer (Jul 4, 2018)

Where are you located, where are you at in life, and what field do you hope to go into after graduation?


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## Divico (Jul 4, 2018)

I was planning to go there for some time. My researches gave me rather mediocre results. For what I have read its offers are quite good but you have to show a lot of engagement to learn enough from it, like there isnt coming enough from them. You can learn quite a bit but rather on your own. 
Do you plan a career in audio engineering ?


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## ein fisch (Jul 4, 2018)

im living in swiss. very open minded, meanwhile i got to love kinda everything about audio, either if it is how a studio monitor is built or how to sing for opera and screm for metal music. as i wanted to be a popstar when i was around 12 i found out thats too difficult, then i wanted to be a filmcomposer. as i found out thats also too difficult i now decided to go to sae, get the paper and the knowledge and try to get jobs at festivals or where ever they need audio setups. maybe i will also put a website up and offer studio services (mixing, mastering and the whole program). also if i get good enough with my daw i could offer online courses / private lessons.

some kind of audio allrounder

and then, i will let luck and personality decide if i can become the beloved media-composer or if im gonna do low paid job trough my entire life. someone in here once told me i should atleast die trying, thats kinda what im doing at the moment


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## Divico (Jul 4, 2018)

ein fisch said:


> im living in swiss. very open minded, meanwhile i got to love kinda everything about audio, either if it is how a studio monitor is built or how to sing for opera and screm for metal music. as i wanted to be a popstar when i was around 12 i found out thats too difficult, then i wanted to be a filmcomposer. as i found out thats also too difficult i now decided to go to sae, get the paper and the knowledge and try to get jobs at festivals or where ever they need audio setups. maybe i will also put a website up and offer studio services (mixing, mastering and the whole program). also if i get good enough with my daw i could offer online courses / private lessons.
> 
> some kind of audio allrounder
> 
> and then, i will let luck and personality decide if i can become the beloved media-composer or if im gonna do low paid job trough my entire life. someone in here once told me i should atleast die trying, thats kinda what im doing at the moment


Not sure if an SAE grade is necesary for this. Look if you find a regular university offering audio engineering. If you want an academic degree that one is better imo.
If it comes to knowledge: Mix with the Masters and Puremix.net are really good sources. They are not cheap but way less than SAE.
But be warned. many people complain that being an audio guy doesnt pay off any more. At least not as a studio owner.
I had a crisis halfway through university having the same thoughts as you.


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## Scoremixer (Jul 4, 2018)

ein fisch said:


> as i wanted to be a popstar when i was around 12 i found out thats too difficult, then i wanted to be a filmcomposer. as i found out thats also too difficult



If you think those things are too difficult, then you'll probably find a career in sound engineering is not much easier. Jobs are easier to come by live sound, but the work is hard (physically, as well as everything else).

Definitely don't drop $26k on something speculatively like that. I'd find out who the big live and corporate PA hire companies are in Switzerland, then go and knock on doors and offer to work in their warehouses for free. If you're useful (that just requires common sense and stamina) then you'll probably get paid work out of it before too long.


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## T.j. (Jul 4, 2018)

That still exists?

I'd say it depends entirely on how much the fee means to you:
If you have rich parents with money to burn, sure.
If it's a lot of money (it is!) I can only recommend you to do something more useful with your time;
You're chasing a career path that's totally saturated and a market that is virtually non-existent.
If this was 1984, I'd say sure.. but you're chasing a star that's burned out 20 years ago.

Honestly, you won't learn anything you can't learn by yourself in equal or less time.
The money is for acces to top gear (which most students will never get close to again), and making connections (probably mostly your fellow student, but your friends are often the ones who'll end up getting you jobs).
The last part is the ONLY reason I'd even consider it.

Get into the field instead, find a local venue and offer your services for free, do that for a few years until you can do it in your sleep. Or go make coffee for someone with a studio.
As an employer I'd rather hire someone with actual experience instead of the 1000's of fresh-faced students who leave ''school'' each year but actually don't know anything.

I've never met anyone who went to SAE who was ultimately satisfied with the experience, or the opportunities it created for them (rather: didn't)
Also, I've never been asked for a degree EVER.
If this is about the diploma, or your securing your future, go do something else;
Law, Economics, etc.
Music will still be here when you're done


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## Michel Simons (Jul 4, 2018)

I have done the Audio Engineering course at SAE (Rotterdam) between 2004 and 2006, and even though the experience overall was good I have to agree with @T.j. . Going in there without some practical experience and a feel for engineering will probably lead to spending time that you could have spent more wisely. And if you already have the practical experience then why bother. By the way, $26.000 sounds like a lot more than I have paid.


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## ein fisch (Jul 5, 2018)

Divico said:


> Not sure if an SAE grade is necesary for this. Look if you find a regular university offering audio engineering. If you want an academic degree that one is better imo.
> If it comes to knowledge: Mix with the Masters and Puremix.net are really good sources. They are not cheap but way less than SAE.
> But be warned. many people complain that being an audio guy doesnt pay off any more. At least not as a studio owner.
> I had a crisis halfway through university having the same thoughts as you.



Thanks for the opinions so far.

i have to disagree. im aware that puremix and mix with the masters offer good material for online self-learning.

i see some problems on learning yourself:

1. you cant just ask a question real quick "wait i didnt got this, please explain". you have the options to either find a solution yourself or ask in forums like here, but as we all know both is more time consuming than just asking a teacher that sits right next to you.

2. you can build more connections in a school atmosphere than sitting at home alone in a dark room

3. theres no one to correct you, no one that gives you proper worksheets


but if anyone knows a solution to get connections im already happy. as an average pianist i didnt find a band or any music related hobby where i could get to know some people.


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## Divico (Jul 5, 2018)

ein fisch said:


> Thanks for the opinions so far.
> 
> i have to disagree. im aware that puremix and mix with the masters offer good material for online self-learning.
> 
> ...


Of cause it is easier to learn in school than by yourself. To me a problematic point is that in audio engineering there is no right or wrong. You have some basic concepts and techniques to learn and understand and from there on its more about experience and practice. If you can spend the money do it. Imo there are just better ways. Also are you really shure thats the way to go? How much experience do you have in audio engineering?
You need to have a screw loose in your head to listen to the same song for 8h doing just small adjustments and not getting bored. My gf for example doesnt understand why I am doing this to me


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## T.j. (Jul 5, 2018)

ein fisch said:


> i have to disagree.



That's allright. You ask and we answer.
I'll always be honest, brutally so if needed, and this is just a waste of your cash and time.



ein fisch said:


> 1. you cant just ask a question real quick "wait i didnt got this, please explain". you have the options to either find a solution yourself or ask in forums like here, but as we all know both is more time consuming than just asking a teacher that sits right next to you.



True, but this isn't something like law we are talking about.
Ask 10 different mix engineers to mix the same song and you'll get 10 different versions.
Similarly, if you go looking for answers online you'll find 10 of them, ONE of which you'll find to be working for you,
and the others you can store in a ''I'll use this technique for something else sometime database'.
If all you were given was one opinion you just lost out on 9 other ways of expanding your understanding.



ein fisch said:


> 2. you can build more connections in a school atmosphere than sitting at home alone in a dark room


Correct



ein fisch said:


> 3. theres no one to correct you, no one that gives you proper worksheets



Yes there is, it's called your ears. And every single album out there that you like as a reference.

These schools are created to fill a vacuum that doesn't really exist.
Did Charlie Parker go to 'conservatory' to learn Jazz?
No, yet 1000's spend money each year to go to "school" to learn to play like Charlie Parker.
It's ass backwards. Spend 10 years WORKING instead, then go to school if you really insist and when your teacher tells you to 'do x', you can go ''yeah.. but I actually did that 1000 times and 999 times it didn't work, so.. no".

None of the famous Mix Engineers of times past went to "school" to learn their craft, because there weren't any.
The concepts are VERY easy to understand, you don't need teachers for any of that.
It's the DOING that's difficult but nobody can teach you that anyway.
Trial and Error, rinse, repeat. Do it every day, all day.

Also, the fact that you're considering this because the other options were 'too difficult' is very concerning.
There are very few jobs, and many, many people who want them. This is not a last resort, it's as hard as any of them so be prepared to work diligently, tirelessly. Be prepared to work horrible hours and still make no money for a long time


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## ein fisch (Jul 5, 2018)

T.j. said:


> That's allright. You ask and we answer.
> I'll always be honest, brutally so if needed, and this is just a waste of your cash and time.
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for the honesty TJ.
Not too difficult, i spelt that wrong. Sorry. With difficult i meant, there are too many things out of my control, based on luck. Its talent, right time and right place.

Im aware that it should be a 95% "doing". BUT as i went to the open-door-day 2 weeks ago that was basically the concept they explained to me. They have their studios, teachers, school about 2x3h per week and thats it. The rest you gotta "do" yourself and if needed get help from the guys who are 12h a day there. 

This education system makes perfect sense to me. If its true what they say. But i will wait for more reviews

Thx
Fisch


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## Michel Simons (Jul 5, 2018)

T.j. said:


> Ask 10 different mix engineers to mix the same song and you'll get 10 different versions. Similarly, if you go looking for answers online you'll find 10 of them, ONE of which you'll find to be working for you, and the others you can store in a ''I'll use this technique for something else sometime database'.
> If all you were given was one opinion you just lost out on 9 other ways of expanding your understanding.



That's exactly what my teachers at SAE said. There are no rules, only guidelines. One of the teachers once played me a mix by another student and it sounded pretty damn good. However, when you looked at what that guy had done within ProTools it didn't seem to make much sense. But it worked, so who cares.


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## T.j. (Jul 5, 2018)

ein fisch said:


> Thanks for the honesty TJ.
> Not too difficult, i spelt that wrong. Sorry. With difficult i meant, there are too many things out of my control, based on luck. Its talent, right time and right place.
> Fisch



Not really, no.
Sure, one guy gets the 500k job at the 'name' firm because his uncle works there, life isn't fair, welcome to the world.
Other than that, You_ make_ the opportunities. Talent you don't need to work, just skills upon skills upon skills.
Talent is _why people might still remember you in 20 years._

There are basically no jobs in the field (you've clearly already decided) to enter, because there is _no market._
Why would anyone pay you? What are you offering that's not already out there. Why are 1000's of your fellow student not finding jobs once they're done with school? Why will you? Are those odd worth 30 grand?!?!?
You'd be much better off by investing the 30K in sick gear, _because at least you'll have something they don't._

Whatever it is, pick the career your ultimately the MOST passionate about, and pursue that like your life depends on it.
Otherwise pick any 9-5 job because your life will be much easier.

And because we're being honest, this will probably piss some people off but whatever:
Now is the EASIEST time to be a film composer ever, the level of entry level skill required is miles, no galaxies from what is used to be.
Most people working now wouldn't be allowed to even get coffee for the guys 50 years ago (me included btw.), truth.

But everyone with a freaking phone can make a movie now, the amount of 'new' media that requires music (composers) is ginormous.


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## MatFluor (Jul 5, 2018)

Just for completeness sake, since I don't know if you know that it exists.

In Switzerland there is an apprenticeship called "event technician". It's more broad, but you do sound stages, film production stuff etc (e.g. live audio systems and all that) and use it. I know a guy who made that.

Since apprenticeships are bound to work places, you then already have a job. Here's the link to a description of the job (sorry English guys, German language link): www.berufsberatung.ch/dyn/show/1900?id=7986

Maybe that could be an alternative?

Copy-paste of the first paragraph:

Veranstaltungsfachleute sind für die technischen Aspekte von Theater- und Opernaufführungen, Fernseh- und Videoproduktionen sowie von Events und Messen zuständig. Hinter den Kulissen sorgen sie für einen sicheren Ablauf von Konzerten, Messen und Shows. An solchen Veranstaltungen und Produktionen sind sie die Fachleute für Aufbau und Abbau sowie das Einrichten und Bedienen der Technik: Beleuchtungstechnik, Tontechnik, Videotechnik, Bühnenbauten, Medienintegration und Spezialeffekte.​
Rough translation for English speaking readers:
Event specialists are responsible for the technical aspects of theater and opera performances, TV and Film productions as well as events and conventions. They are responsible for smooth and safe operations behind the scenes at concerts, conventions and shows. At such events and productions these people are the professionals who construct and deconstruct and operate the tech: Lights, Audio, Video, stages, media integration and special effects.​


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## ein fisch (Jul 5, 2018)

MatFluor said:


> Just for completeness sake, since I don't know if you know that it exists.
> 
> In Switzerland there is an apprenticeship called "event technician". It's more broad, but you do sound stages, film production stuff etc (e.g. live audio systems and all that) and use it. I know a guy who made that.
> 
> ...



thanks for sharing. this of course would be a fantastic job to start out. i discussed about it with BIZ (Berufs Informations Zentrum) and they told me those apprenticeships are very rare and there are lots of people that are interested in it. but when i find something i will definitely consider it


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