# Who is using Protools 9 / 10 for full on midi sequencing?



## SvK (Jan 5, 2012)

who is using Protools 9 / 10 for full on midi sequencing?
it seems from the manual that all is there just like in Logic...

please post your experiences.

thanx,
SvK


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## gsilbers (Jan 5, 2012)

nope. not at all as logic. 


but its very complete for composing/sequencing/etc


logic does have some advance midi features that PT doesnt have. 

with that said, i think for 80% folks... its good enough. (in my informal stats


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## utopia (Jan 5, 2012)

> logic does have some advance midi features that PT doesnt have.


Could you name a few? I'd be interested too..


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## Dan Mott (Jan 6, 2012)

I use it all the time for midi editing. I do not use anything else. Other than, I use FL Studio to make a drum loop of some sort with individual wave files because the browser is so great.

My experiences have been very posstive. The work flow is great and I actually like it better than Cubase's midi editor. I've tried them all. Pt was most friendly to me.


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## jamwerks (Jan 6, 2012)

Interesting topic.
Logic user here but considering moving to PT.


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## utopia (Jan 6, 2012)

jamwerks @ Fri Jan 06 said:


> Interesting topic.
> Logic user here but considering moving to PT.


Same here. I've heard some bad things about AudioSuite and overall virtual instruments performance. Anyone could share some details about running large projects with lots of instruments/sample libs on PT?


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## Arbee (Jan 6, 2012)

PT10 + VE Pro rocks...... o-[][]-o


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## A_Fool_With_Tools (Jan 6, 2012)

Arbee @ Fri Jan 06 said:


> PT10 + VE Pro rocks...... o-[][]-o



ProTools 9 with VEPro runs very well too =o 

Hey ARBEE are you getting this bug in PT10 that many other users are reporting?

I have PT10 but am waiting to upgrade, really want the session cache feature :mrgreen: but the reports are rather worrying :?


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## Farkle (Jan 6, 2012)

A_Fool_With_Tools @ Fri Jan 06 said:


> Arbee @ Fri Jan 06 said:
> 
> 
> > PT10 + VE Pro rocks...... o-[][]-o
> ...



I do not use Pro Tools, personally, but 2 years ago, I co-wrote a feature film with Scott Frieman, and he uses Pro Tools exclusively. We used VE Pro, PLAY, and Kontakt with Pro Tools.

The whole score was MIDI sequenced, using a pretty full orchestral template.

It ran really smoothly; and I was able to do all the midi tweaking (drawing automation curves, editing blocks of notes with velocity and pitch changes, mapping and recording CC data to hardware knobs, all the standard stuff) with minimal fuss.

Ironically, (since Pro Tools is not known for being a MIDI powerhouse), the "piano roll"/MIDI view was one of the nicer ones I've seen. I liked it better than Logic, Cubase, and Digital Performer. Had pretty colors, and the notes on the piano roll had a nice, rounded, "juicy" look to them.

So, FWIW, I scored a feature film with Pro Tools at a friend's studio, and was able to have a satisfactory experience with it. 

Hah-HAH!!!

Mike


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## studioj (Jan 6, 2012)

about a month or so ago I dusted off my HD3 PCIx and picked up a magma chassis to check this out. (i used the TDM hardware with Logic many years ago) and I have been very impressed with the experience. track management can be a little more challenging but overall I'm liking what I'm getting with 10. I haven't run into the outputs shutting off bug, but I did have some issues with a masterfader not automating (a simple re-click of the auto read command fixed it). MIDI wise the only feature I'm missing a bit from Logic is the quantizing... Logic has the most flexible quantize functionality out there. But if you're used to other apps like Cubase or DP, its pretty much the same in that regard. I don't think its a deal breaker though. and I imagine we'll see more composer friendly features in PT soon enough like folder tracks for instance. There is a cool site they've set up called the "ideascale" where you can submit feature requests for PT and vote on them : http://protools.ideascale.com/
If you are into some of the more advanced MIDI transform functions in Logic, you will likely miss those... but you could always process standard MIDI with logic and dump it back into PT. 

I haven't really decided how to handle a template yet... if I should have all my tracks setup in PT before hand, or simply have the sounds loaded in VEP and create MIDI tracks on the fly. I'm leaning towards the latter. I was relying on track presets for this in Logic... that would be nice addition to PT for sure. But i think with "memory configurations" (be sure to check out that feature) and the track show/hide list to the left, one could manage a large template pretty easily. 

Like you I'm always checking out alternative tools and I find PT to be the closest in replacing what I do with Logic. Very happy to be back to tracking through plugins on a regular basis, especially for guitar stuff!


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 6, 2012)

Even with VE Pro handling a lot of the load , I cannot imagine switching to a 32 bit app at this stage of the game personally.


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## Farkle (Jan 6, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Jan 06 said:


> Even with VE Pro handling a lot of the load , I cannot imagine switching to a 32 bit app at this stage of the game personally.



Jay,

I personally feel the same way. I like having all my libs loaded up, sucking up gobs of RAM, and not caring about the load, because I'm 64 bit internal, end-to-end.

I upgraded my PC DAW to Studio One (version 2), I am really happy with its' 64-bit end-to-end. I can load tons of instruments on one computer, just let it all chug through, fast bounce, etc., and no problems at all. 

However, if one's workflow is super fast in Pro Tools, there are ways to work around the memory issues. As always, it's what the individual composer prioritizes. Personally, I love Studio One's interface, and they handle Kontakt and 64 bit plugs superbly, so I'm sticking with that. 

Mike


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## studioj (Jan 6, 2012)

i checked out studio one v2 for a sec, i was impressed. But the inability to bounce to QT killed it for me, since i'm doing that many times a day. Have they added that yet? I guess its impossible to do in 64 bit anyway, but maybe in the 32 bit version? 

I still love logic and I can certainly get the job done with it on many levels. But its fun to shop around! Its sort of like driving a new car you don't own yet.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 6, 2012)

Farkle @ Fri Jan 06 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Fri Jan 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Even with VE Pro handling a lot of the load , I cannot imagine switching to a 32 bit app at this stage of the game personally.
> ...



Unless this has changed, Studio One has no notation and that is a total deal breaker for me. I

_Real_ musicians read notes on a score, those who don't are just posers :twisted:


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## SvK (Jan 6, 2012)

no hijacking thread.
start your own studio one thread...thanx


BTW:

ProTools HD Native card system is on sale for 1500$ less right now.

The only way for me to jump in would be with the Protools HD software (track count etc, etc). Unfortunately Protools HD software is not purchasable without buying a card system.

However with the native card system you CAN still use any core audio or ASIO device.

http://www.avid.com/US/special-offers/P ... e-exchange


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## dcoscina (Jan 6, 2012)

I switch between Pro Tools 10 and DP7.24 regularly as they have a very similar GUI. Pro Tools is much easier on my awful eyes and MIDI editing is a snap with it. Work flow is the best I've encountered from all the DAWs I own (and I own all of them). 

Studio One is decent but I just find it buggy in some regards. Also, I miss the notation even though I use the piano roll in Pro Tools much more than notes not because I'm a poser but because it's become more logical to edit with in this page.


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## gsilbers (Jan 6, 2012)

SvK @ Fri Jan 06 said:


> no hijacking thread.
> start your own studio one thread...thanx
> 
> 
> ...




you can buy PT10HD w/o the hardware. 

9HD would be better but avid asked all retailers for it back so now avid warehouses are filled with PT9 not doing anything. oh.. corporate US.. whacha gonna do..
they prolly have their reasons (not selling new 192 for example)

any ways...


i dont see the point of buying PT native card as it would be the same as buying RME FF800 and you still have to buy the 192 which is about another $1500. 
the native card to me is pretty much a glorified soundblaster card that lets u hook up avid interfaces. 

best deal imo are used accel 

and even better. used PCIX card that you can get a magma chassis or if you use a PC then just get a mobo that has pci slots for it. 

im selling my PTHD2 rig (pcix) with 192D, adat bridge 24, g5 dual 2.5 w/8gig of ram
with all cables (cables are VERY expensive) 
everything for $2500 (LA area if anyone is interested) 

that the price of 1 accell pcie card!!! u get a whole system. and the difference btween pci and pcie is about 10-15% of performance. 
so just that connector increases the price 3 folds!!! 


but i use logic. im just too used to it. but pro tools is more "pro" it makes me work more organize  

i have pt slave to my logic so it follows ltc to be a dubbing computer/mixing/editing audio computer. share the same mouse/keuyboard , different screen, so its like having both in one system.


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## Farkle (Jan 6, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Jan 06 said:


> Farkle @ Fri Jan 06 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Fri Jan 06 said:
> ...



You mean notes like THIS???? =o 

going old school this year, pen and paper for this television pilot. Booyah!

Okay, no more hijacking, my apologies, SVK. Back to discussion on Pro Tools, I promise! 

Jay does bring a legit point up, though... if there is a delay/lag in PT through VEPro because of the 32 bit/4 GB ram ceiling, that would be a problem for MIDI. I don't seem to remember having to "offset" midi notes in Pro Tools on that project, but it was a while ago.

Is there a noticeable lag when triggering midi notes in PT, and having them fire out to VE Pro, and VE pro triggers the samples?

Mike
Mike


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## gaz (Jan 6, 2012)

I have both PT10 and Cubase 6 (which I recently moved to) and am currently finding the midi editing in PT to be easier. That might change one I get more accustomed to Cubase's workflow. One thing I have noticed though is that Cubase seems to record midi better. The timings seem spot on, whereas PT seems to have some latency.


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## jamwerks (Jan 6, 2012)

How does PT handle multi instrument tracks compared to Logic? That's currently one of Logics short falls.

Anybody knowing both care to comment?


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## dcoscina (Jan 6, 2012)

I don't have any delay issues with VE Pro 5 and Pro Tools 10...

As for multiple instruments, let's just say I've never liked the architecture Logic employs to handle multi instruments like PLAY or Kontakt. You are tied down to that 16 midi channels assigned to that plug-in whereas on DP or Pro Tools or even Studio One, you can re-assign tracks to whatever plug in you have by a couple of mouse clicks. I don't see Apple rectifying this as it appears to be endemic with how the program is constructed. Bummer. It's a real PITA. 

Anyhow, I have moved away from Logic almost entirely now. Not to say I won't give Logic 10 a fair shake whenever it's released.


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## SvK (Jan 6, 2012)

Ok big PT question....

MIDI editing:

In Logic, I can create a loop from say bar 1 through 16. So the project just keeps looping between bar 1 and 16. Now while it is looping i can enter any of the midi regions that fall within that loop cycle and edit them.....

How do i do this in PT? Because PT does not have the "song-locator loop cycle" thingie.

best,
SvK


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## SvK (Jan 6, 2012)

I got it!

just turn off "Link Time line and edit selection"

best,
SvK


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## dadek (Jan 6, 2012)

dynamic transport is your friend.

command+cntrl+p

you can even move the start point within a selection.


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## SvK (Jan 6, 2012)

thanx dadek,
You just made my day

best,
SvK


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## SvK (Jan 6, 2012)

OK 1 more question....how about midi time compress / stretch?

So stretching compressing midi data?

How in PT?

best,
SvK


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## A_Fool_With_Tools (Jan 6, 2012)

SvK @ Fri Jan 06 said:


> OK 1 more question....how about midi time compress / stretch?
> 
> So stretching compressing midi data?
> 
> ...



Make sure your trimmer tool has a time clock sign then point mouse to edge of any side of the MIDI region (or clips as it is now known) then click and drag either in slip or grid mode.


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## SvK (Jan 6, 2012)

Yo Fool,

thanx 
now I'm set...


best,
SvK


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## SvK (Jan 6, 2012)

ok one more....

The little button at the bottom left of the arrange window. The one that shows / hides the midi / piano roll editor....

What is it's key-command?

best.,
SvK


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## dadek (Jan 6, 2012)

for that you'll need to setup up some 'window configurations'.


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## SvK (Jan 6, 2012)

I've spent the day with midi in PT9...

It does virtually everything LOgic does , but better.

The ONLY issues I have that i can live without for now are FOLDERS and BOUNCE IN PLACE and the CURVE TOOL...

yes CPU hit in PT is bigger than in LOgic, however most of my stuff is running outside of DAW anyway.....

In PT there are so many wonderful ways to hide/show tracks when dealing with 160+ midi tracks. Not to mention the lovely cut, copy paste system of copying automation.
Markers have their own settings for hide/show tracks/zoom etc. Groups are another way to tackle all of this........

Delay compensation for outboard Compressors / Effects that actually works. 
Staying on same system that the engineers will perform final mix on.

I'm switching to PT10hd for MIDI.
It just makes sense.

best,
SvK


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## IFM (Jan 6, 2012)

Have you given Cubase a try? I went to C6 and find it quite nice too.


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## SvK (Jan 6, 2012)

Dragon wind,

Yes I worked with it for 3 days straight. I like it a lot. However I've decided that since everything ends up in PT before its dubbed to picture anyhow, why not just be in PT all the way.

best,
SvK


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## tripit (Jan 6, 2012)

SvK @ Fri Jan 06 said:


> ok one more....
> 
> The little button at the bottom left of the arrange window. The one that shows / hides the midi / piano roll editor....
> 
> ...



A program like DP has more options for key commands. But, a lot of the PT power users have been using QuicKeys for years. I know some guys who can really fly on PT, pretty amazing to watch them work.


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## IFM (Jan 6, 2012)

SvK @ Fri Jan 06 said:


> Dragon wind,
> 
> Yes I worked with it for 3 days straight. I like it a lot. However I've decided that since everything ends up in PT before its dubbed to picture anyhow, why not just be in PT all the way.
> 
> ...



Makes sense. I do a lot of video game stuff and that isn't really necessary. I may still get it eventually though.
 
EDIT: That's right you had that thread going about cubase.


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## Dan Mott (Jan 6, 2012)

Double posted


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## Dan Mott (Jan 6, 2012)

Congrats on making the switch. I know it made me happy 

PT 9.0.3 is the most stable version right now.


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## IFM (Jan 6, 2012)

What about PT10? I've heard reports that it isn't too stable or breaks connection with hardware.


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## studioj (Jan 6, 2012)

Looking like a full on Logic - PT switch for me too. I've done a few projects in it and so far so good. I just popped in some additional Accel cards in the chassis today and I'm rocking an HD6 now. I know this is dying technology at this point, and I'll prob upgrade to HDX when I have to but you can't beat the price of entry right now for a very powerful TDM system. 

Another little trick if you ever find yourself missing Logic's MIDI processing capabilities in the environment on MIDI input... Run Plogue Bidule along side PT, route your MIDI controller to a IAC bus in bidule, and set that IAC bus in PT as your MIDI input (turn off your controller there).... then you can put all sorts of processing fun between your controller and the IAC module. YOu can remap cc's, invert cc's, transpose, everything Logic can do and way more.


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## studioj (Jan 6, 2012)

PT10 HD running very smoothly for me... had a little glitch where a master output stopped automating but it was easily reset.


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## SvK (Jan 6, 2012)

Hi Guys,

One more question (setting up my Logic template in PT9hd ...will take ALL night..160+trax)

GROUPS: with these I can show and hide certain trax from my edit / mix windows.....

My problem is that i wish to hide things in the MIX window that I don't want to hide in the EDIT window and vice/versa...

In other words I want my EDIT window to only show midi tracks and my mix window to only show aux and outputs.

How do I get group view for mix and edit windows to act independently.....

best,
SvK


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## SvK (Jan 6, 2012)

thanx for headzup StudioJ


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## studioj (Jan 6, 2012)

I don't think it's possible.  but i've seen it many times as a feature request.  I've actually stopped using the mixer so much and stay in the edit view 95% of the time... with mixer window underneath and toggle with cmmnd =.  Would be great to have a mixer view over to the side with just the subs / auxes visible and no auxes visible, just midi tracks in edit but you can't do that I don't believe.  use colors to help differentiate tracks in both edit and mix.  make sure to fiddle with the "saturation" and "brightness" sliders in the color window to help make colors more obvious.  Then keep tracks you want more apparent in mix at the bottom of your track list ( or top) and set them to micro height in edit on your memory configuration.


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## SvK (Jan 7, 2012)

studioJ ,

thanx...

one more roadblock. This wil sound silly but is potentially a showstopper. When I collapse the tracks in the edit window to "small" or "micro" , I can only see about 3 letters of the " track names ". With 160 tracks that ain't gonna cut it.....is there any way around this?

best,
SvK


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 7, 2012)

SvK @ Sat Jan 07 said:


> studioJ ,
> 
> thanx...
> 
> ...



Here is what I can tell you folks, just as a cautionary tale that you are free to dismiss as I do not no hands on experience with PT for MIDI based composing, only mixing. And please believe me, I have no stake in people staying with or going to Logic Pro, despite my identification with it.

I have a friend who I will not name but who is somewhat high profile. He has bounced around from DAW to DAW, always eventually becoming dissatisfied. He bought an HD rig that he used for mixing and since he became convinced that PT was "the only really "professional' app" decided to use exclusively it for MIDI based composition as well as mixing. He even became an Avid beta tester.

After 1 1/2 years of trying to do this he became _so_ dissatisfied and complained _so_ much about the shortcomings of composing in PT that he got kicked off the beta team.

He ended up moving to Nuendo and he is quite happy with it, at least for now


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## jamwerks (Jan 7, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jan 07 said:


> After 1 1/2 years of trying to do this he became _so_ dissatisfied and complained _so_ much about the shortcomings of composing in PT



What would be enriching for this thread would be precise examples a what "doesn't work" in PT midi wise.


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## ed buller (Jan 7, 2012)

It's not that things don't work. It's just SUCH a pain compared to cubase or logic. I have given up and have switched to all my midi on a pc running cubase 6. Pro tools 9 does all the audio. I love it

e


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## jamwerks (Jan 7, 2012)

ed buller @ Sat Jan 07 said:


> It's not that things don't work. It's just SUCH a pain



What would be enriching for this thread would be precise examples of what is "such a pain".


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## studioj (Jan 7, 2012)

two ways to get around that annoying shortcoming....  One is to set "comment" to view in the edit window which lets you see more detailed text (so put your full track names there) and 2) use the tracks list in the upper left as visual cues for your tracks. This list shows you full names.  When you click on a track here the corresponding track is selected.  Also you can right click on a track here and select "scroll into view".  

I have also created mono audio tracks titled things like "--- S T R I N G S".  and "--- P E R C" and deactivated them, they live between the loads of midi tracks that make up these sections to help further the visual cues for getting around quickly.  Again colors are also key.


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## gsilbers (Jan 7, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jan 07 said:


> SvK @ Sat Jan 07 said:
> 
> 
> > studioJ ,
> ...



whats where some of his troubles in pt?


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## gsilbers (Jan 7, 2012)

ed buller @ Sat Jan 07 said:


> It's not that things don't work. It's just SUCH a pain compared to cubase or logic. I have given up and have switched to all my midi on a pc running cubase 6. Pro tools 9 does all the audio. I love it
> 
> e




how are you transferring everything over?


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## gsilbers (Jan 7, 2012)

for anyone interested (cough cough SVK)

you can see pretty good videos of working with pro tools at www.groove3.com

i found the "mixing rock w PT" is very good and can be used to any style. 

plus all the other videos that show a lot. and even if you know pro tools, its shows you new tricks and features you prolly didnt know. 

there is a 1month pass for about $25 you can see all the videos you want. pretty sweet deal. 

there are others, which also show orchestration, and other DAWs, etc. (the logic ones are annoying so i would skip those  

pro tools, in a way.. forces you to work in a specific-more organized way... 
or at least its easier to get organized. logic its a bit more customizable so it takes longer to master a complex yet clean workflow.. and once u do another type of project its different custmization.... which has its good and bad.


i think the main problem with pro tools... which has been mentioned... 

its the 32 bit limitation. 

for folks who only work in 32 bit its hard to explain that the program... plugins, edits, automation etc... takes a toll on the ram which is limited. so even though you use bidule or VEP... once u start doing a lot of tracks and edits and automation and loading plugins you will start to get an unstable system.. even though you are NOT loading sampler plugins like K5, omni etc. 
all the proccessing for audio plugins, automation, track count, etc takes a toll on the RAM which is not usually something you would think it would matter... but it does. 

also... RTAS is not very efficient so hopefully the new AAX plugins will solve this.


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## ed buller (Jan 7, 2012)

god it's been hell. It took a month but it's done now. I have a carillion with 32 gig of ram running 280 tracks of midi that address Vienna Ensemble PRO wnich has all my kontakt , VSL and other stuff. This goes into pro tools via ethernet.

e


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## SvK (Jan 7, 2012)

studioj @ Sat Jan 07 said:


> I have also created mono audio tracks titled things like "--- S T R I N G S".  and "--- P E R C" and deactivated them, they live between the loads of midi tracks that make up these sections to help further the visual cues for getting around quickly.  Again colors are also key.



haha,

no thanx 
Can't do it.

The lucky winner is 

LOGIC!!!!

what was I thinking. My good composer buddies just set me straight. I'm staying put.
All that stuff I said....Forget it 

best,
SvK


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## gsilbers (Jan 7, 2012)

ha! oh well. 
you can also link the 2. logic for seq/editing etc and have pro tools as a slave for audio stems and video playback. 


then its time to hijack this thread then :mrgreen: :twisted: 







which BTW... 


anyone using the aforementioned setup with PT9 or PT10? 


i have an HD rig pcix but its soo loud and clunky... 

im thinking i can do the same with a mac mini and my maudio lightbridge !!! 


(again, as a dub/stem/video playback rig.. linked via mmc/ltc to sync em. )


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## studioj (Jan 7, 2012)

haha, nice.
I'm gonna stick it out a little longer. See where it takes me. and I def wouldn't even be considering it if in weren't HD with the dsp acceleration. I've really been enjoying not thinking about buffer settings ever. I do alot of live audio recording so it is making a big diff in my workflow. I also have a lot of tdm plugs from back in the day there's that. But Jay's remarks are warranted, def how I've always felt in the past. But that was pre- VEP. Svk haven't seen you mention DP at all.. seems you've given the others a fair shake, how about that one? Unfortunate there is no demo version.


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## gsilbers (Jan 7, 2012)

studioj @ Sat Jan 07 said:


> haha, nice.
> I'm gonna stick it out a little longer. See where it takes me. and I def wouldn't even be considering it if in weren't HD with the dsp acceleration. I've really been enjoying not thinking about buffer settings ever. I do alot of live audio recording so it is making a big diff in my workflow. I also have a lot of tdm plugs from back in the day there's that. But Jay's remarks are warranted, def how I've always felt in the past. But that was pre- VEP. Svk haven't seen you mention DP at all.. seems you've given the others a fair shake, how about that one? Unfortunate there is no demo version.




have you used logic 9 with HD interface?

i contemplated this idea but i heard horror stories about it.


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## JohnG (Jan 7, 2012)

Hi gsilbers,

I use DP as sequencer, with PT9 HD slaving on a second Mac for recording. It's sort of cumbersome but it works. I use Midi time code for locking up; it's not instantaneous but it works with a bit of preroll.

If that was your question...


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## SvK (Jan 7, 2012)

DP can't mute midi notes in the Piano roll....no can do.

best,
SvK


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## studioj (Jan 7, 2012)

gsilbers @ Sat Jan 07 said:


> have you used logic 9 with HD interface?
> 
> i contemplated this idea but i heard horror stories about it.



No haven't done that since I stopped using Logic with TDM about 4 years ago. Pretty much because most people said it didn't work so well. I have an RME HDSP for native core audio.


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## studioj (Jan 7, 2012)

SvK @ Sat Jan 07 said:


> DP can't mute midi notes in the Piano roll....no can do.
> 
> best,
> SvK



Out of all the "missing features" among the various DAW's, this one boggles me the most as to why it is still absent from DP.


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## studioj (Jan 7, 2012)

btw, figured out today that if you cntrl-shift click on the track in the TRACKS list on the left it selects it and scrolls it into view in the edit window. a quick 'E' for zoom toggle will expand it to your desired size set in prefs...or shift R to throw it into rec. 

Logic does do both of these things automatically, but finding the track you want is sometimes not as quick if you have a long list, or many folders. a quick test with the timer shows I can get to my track and have it in record faster in PT. But maybe my logic template isn't set up the best... I have folders for each section basically, and i know them well.


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## IFM (Jan 7, 2012)

Funny how after all that testing you ended up back with Logic.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 7, 2012)

Dragonwind @ Sat Jan 07 said:


> Funny how after all that testing you ended up back with Logic.



You wouldn't believe how many times I get an email or a phone call saying " I am switching to Program X and a month or two later they tell me they are back with Logic


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## SvK (Jan 7, 2012)

Logic allows sorting of tracks by alphabet


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## studioj (Jan 7, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jan 07 said:


> You wouldn't believe how many times I get an email or a phone call saying " I am switching to Program X and a month or two later they yell me they are back with Logic



I bet! I've done it probably 3 or 4 times in the last 8 years. Perhaps this will be #5, we shall see. I enjoy it though, exercises a different part of my brain than the writing part, and keeps me from getting bored  usually makes me appreciate Logic more in the end too


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## JaredJn (Jan 7, 2012)

I figured I'd put my two cents in as well.
Personally, I've worked with Logic for about 4 years now and Protools is a little bit of fresh material to me.

My conclusion could be the cause of my inexperience with Protools but I have summed up, at least for me, that I prefer ProTools for Recording Live audio and for mixing. Logic, I prefer greatly on the MIDI side of things.

I might change my mind the more I work with ProTools... MAYBE.. but I feel that I am pretty firm on my PERSONAL conclusion.


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## PeterMalick (Jan 8, 2012)

OK, I'll chime in, too.

I'm actively searching for a way out of the Pro Tools "family". I've used Pro Tools for a dozen years now, so switching to another DAW will likely be a long term project. With the price gouging shenanigans surrounding the release of PT 10, I don't feel AVID is a company that I can trust. 

Long term, I feel the only sensible choice is to find a different platform that is developed by a stable, consumer friendly, company. I'm watching Studio One, and if its development continues at the pace it's on, it could be viable.


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## gsilbers (Jan 8, 2012)

JohnG @ Sat Jan 07 said:


> Hi gsilbers,
> 
> I use DP as sequencer, with PT9 HD slaving on a second Mac for recording. It's sort of cumbersome but it works. I use Midi time code for locking up; it's not instantaneous but it works with a bit of preroll.
> 
> If that was your question...




cool! 


so whats the cumbersome part? 


there was a post from another member that mentioned he got mmc to work both ways so playback was instantaneous


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## JohnG (Jan 8, 2012)

the "cumbersome part" is probably just psychological. Using two computers to do the same thing I once did with one seems kind of dumb.

Also, there are plugins inside DP that can only be applied to sounds hosted inside DP itself. It's not the end of the world but I have some presets I'm used to there.

Once DP goes 64 bit (rumoured for this NAMM but we'll see), it should make things even simpler -- no more need for VE Pro on the DP mac.


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## JohnG (Jan 8, 2012)

anyone located the mmc comment to which gsilbers alluded?


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## IFM (Jan 8, 2012)

I really have been testing the Cubase waters a lot. I really like it now as much as I like Logic...almost more so and I haven't really gotten into some of the more expression maps yet. It is sort of full circle for me as I started out on Cubase Score 1.0. I think I had the Atari version first then flipped it to Mac. 
Chris


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## gsilbers (Jan 8, 2012)

JohnG @ Sun Jan 08 said:


> anyone located the mmc comment to which gsilbers alluded?



http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=237255


didnt find the thread i was talking about :(


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## JohnG (Jan 8, 2012)

thanks gsilbers!


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Jan 8, 2012)

SvK @ Sat Jan 07 said:


> DP can't mute midi notes in the Piano roll....no can do.
> 
> best,
> SvK



REAPER can


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## dcoscina (Jan 8, 2012)

I doubt Reaper can do what DP can as far as customizable clicks goes, or burning in time code into the QT clip or any other awesome film score applications Digital Performer can do. Also, its track folders for me are infinitely better than any other DAW out there. I hope DP8 improves its scaling of things and obviously 64 bit compatibility. Aside from that, it's pretty bang on the money. I honestly don't know how guys use Logic when they want to do changing meters and changing tempi all over the place. Obviously they do because plenty of film composers use it every day but I had not so much luck with it on my last film assignment....DP got the lion's share of work on that one...


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## Dan Mott (Jan 8, 2012)

Just for the heads up...

Pro Tools doesn't like making friends with Virtual Instruments. That's why VE Pro is such a good choice because then it works amazing!

As far as plugins goes. PT loves plugins. 

Opening up multiple instances of Kontakt/PLAY/ENGINE.... well things get a little hectic. If you run out of memory, PT is very unforgiving. It won't warn you, but it's very likely that your session could become currupt because of this, or infact crash! and maybe not opening again. I'm talking from my experiences.

Anything you do in PT counts. Everything is linked and it's quite annoying because I always have in the back of my mind that PT will crash any minute. 

Optimize or PC or MAC and turn session file backups OFF. Just backup your session every half hour or so. Don't have any external drives connected at one time and always close your session before doing so, then re-open once the drive is disconnected. Do the optimizations that are suggested on the AVID site, they help. Also, trash your DAE preferences folder every now and then, THEN retart the computer.


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## studioj (Jan 9, 2012)

Dan-Jay @ Mon Jan 09 said:


> Opening up multiple instances of Kontakt/PLAY/ENGINE.... well things get a little hectic. If you run out of memory, PT is very unforgiving. It won't warn you, but it's very likely that your session could become currupt because of this, or infact crash! and maybe not opening again. I'm talking from my experiences.
> 
> Anything you do in PT counts. Everything is linked and it's quite annoying because I always have in the back of my mind that PT will crash any minute.
> 
> Optimize or PC or MAC and turn session file backups OFF. Just backup your session every half hour or so. Don't have any external drives connected at one time and always close your session before doing so, then re-open once the drive is disconnected. Do the optimizations that are suggested on the AVID site, they help. Also, trash your DAE preferences folder every now and then, THEN retart the computer.



That sounds awful. Are you on HD or regular? So far I haven't run into any of that, but I'm keeping all VI's out of PT, only running MIDI and audio tracks. With a single VEP instance, and several AUX's for processing channels from VEP.


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Jan 9, 2012)

dcoscina @ Sun Jan 08 said:


> I doubt Reaper can do what DP can as far as customizable clicks goes, or burning in time code into the QT clip or any other awesome film score applications Digital Performer can do. Also, its track folders for me are infinitely better than any other DAW out there. I hope DP8 improves its scaling of things and obviously 64 bit compatibility. Aside from that, it's pretty bang on the money. I honestly don't know how guys use Logic when they want to do changing meters and changing tempi all over the place. Obviously they do because plenty of film composers use it every day but I had not so much luck with it on my last film assignment....DP got the lion's share of work on that one...



customizable clicks? Yes, it can

burn timecode in qt? No :( (but any video editing software can do)

any other awesome film score applications? like what?


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## Dan Mott (Jan 9, 2012)

studioj @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> Dan-Jay @ Mon Jan 09 said:
> 
> 
> > Opening up multiple instances of Kontakt/PLAY/ENGINE.... well things get a little hectic. If you run out of memory, PT is very unforgiving. It won't warn you, but it's very likely that your session could become currupt because of this, or infact crash! and maybe not opening again. I'm talking from my experiences.
> ...




I'm running the regular version on Windows 7. Unfortunately that's what most of us have to deal with. If you go on the AVID forums, they are endless discussions about all this shit.


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## kdm (Jan 9, 2012)

Dan-Jay @ Sun Jan 08 said:


> Opening up multiple instances of Kontakt/PLAY/ENGINE.... well things get a little hectic. If you run out of memory, PT is very unforgiving. It won't warn you, but it's very likely that your session could become currupt because of this, or infact crash! and maybe not opening again. I'm talking from my experiences.



I had the same problem with Nuendo - crashes and corrupt projects while running a lot of VIs (along with other issues such as video sync, etc) - but haven't had a corrupt project since moving to ProTools.

Hosting VIs externally (slaves, VEPro) is the way to work with PT and scoring. For me, it's the most reliable, stable and efficient way to work in general, so I would do the same with Nuendo or Logic. 

PT10 on Win7 here with slaves, VEPro, etc. Very stable.


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## SvK (Jan 9, 2012)

I have posted my issues with PT as a midi DAW here on the Avid forums, If anyone wants to back it up, so maybe these things will get changed....

best,
SvK


http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=315216


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## studioj (Jan 9, 2012)

i created an ideascale posting for the first issue earlier today... go and vote if you have a sec. 

http://protools.ideascale.com/a/dtd/all ... 89359-3779

and the second has been there a while, vote for that too:

http://protools.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Dif ... 12299-3779

i have no idea if any of this makes a difference.


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## SvK (Jan 9, 2012)

Studio J....

done.
thanx for doing this.

best,
SvK


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## SvK (Jan 9, 2012)

Hey gang,

Since I'm a bit of a noob in PT, I spoke too soon. I was blissfully unaware of the "track list" that can be shown on the left. It allows for easy reading of available tracks and you can sort by alphabet, type etc.....

Also the "memory location" system IS a great way of hiding / showing just those tracks associated with a certain cue. There is even a setting called "none" to NOT associate the memory location with the timeline at all if so desired.

best,
SvK


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## studioj (Jan 9, 2012)

hey Svk-
I figured some other neat tricks today... 
cntrl-shift click on one of those tracks in the TRACKS list and it will select and scroll into view. if you have zoom toggle set to follow edit selection in prefs it will automatically zoom to your preset setting (i'm using large)... just like logic's auto zoom. shift-R then to put it into record... or set your default through instrument in prefs to the "selected track" and you will automatically be able to play through the selected track (still have to put into record to record though). but good for auditioning nonetheless. Also use keys "P" and ";" to move the edit selection up and down the list. You have to be in commands focus though. Check out the audio wiki page for finding great PT shortcuts:

http://en.wikiaudio.org/Answerro_Tool ... _shortcuts


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## studioj (Jan 9, 2012)

another great one when setting up MIDI templates:

select your 16 MIDI tracks for a particular port and then shift-option-cmmnd click on the 1st channel of that port as the output... it will set all 16 channels in ascending order properly.


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## SvK (Jan 9, 2012)

Studio J,

Thanx for valuable info.

best,
SvK


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## studioj (Jan 9, 2012)

One word: Quickeys

Holy moly I can't believe I've never used this software. I just spent 10 minutes with it and as far as i'm concerned its a necessity with Pro Tools. Create shortcuts for creating different kinds of tracks with one swoop, even multiple types of track combinations! Remap shortcuts you may have drilled into your brain to whatever its locked to in PT. Like for me I had the keypad "." assigned to "goto measure" in Logic... whereas this function is the "*" in PT. Anyway they have a 30 day trial, a DAW users dream it seems. You can even map MIDI events to actions with it. I think Cubendo is the only DAW out there with Macros, but this effectively gives you that functionality. You can "record" mouse movements on the screen, so there are obviously lots of possibilities for automated tasks.


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Jan 10, 2012)

studioj @ Mon Jan 09 said:


> I think Cubendo is the only DAW out there with Macros, but this effectively gives you that functionality.



REAPER has macros :D


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## studioj (Jan 10, 2012)

Gabriel Oliveira @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> studioj @ Mon Jan 09 said:
> 
> 
> > I think Cubendo is the only DAW out there with Macros, but this effectively gives you that functionality.
> ...




I have checked out Reaper. Although the feature list is impressive, I felt they are in dire need of some design and UI help... felt like a project that started with good intentions but has gotten a little out of control with poorly planned feature additions. I'm sure a lot can be done with it and it seems to be a popular substitute for the big ones but it felt clumsy and convoluted to me. It was obvious that it would take way too much time to get a handle on it. I also couldn't get video to play well in V3 although I think they've improved that with later updates. I think Studio One v2 is a better example of how a new player in the game can make some noise with a great UI and powerful features.


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Jan 10, 2012)

Indeed, Studioj... gui and ui was never a big priority on Reaper

but after one-weak-tweaking on reaper, my workflow turned faster than ever (ex-cubendo user)

video here on V4 is ok


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## JohnG (Jan 10, 2012)

You can customise key combinations in Digital Performer. It is a great feature.

I am not so sure about PT -- can someone clarify whether Quick keys substitutes / replaces the "regular" PT key combinations or if it sits separately, so that you can bring in an engineer and he would be able to use PT as he's accustomed to doing?


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## studioj (Jan 10, 2012)

quickeys is a separate app that runs. so as soon as you quit it, the regular fixed short cut keys apply. You cannot customize PT's shortcuts, which is sort of the point for PT since they want the user experience to be the same for all, for the reason you mention.


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## JohnG (Jan 10, 2012)

thanks!


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## studioj (Jan 11, 2012)

Some more notes after some deadlines and crunchtime working yesterday...

Stability has been awesome in PT (aside from a bug i hit yesterday, more later). no crashes, super fast saves even with memory load high in VEP and VEP coupled... I would put this up to being able to run a single instance of VEP instead of the many required for Logic. 

Audio editing is superb. everything works and looks like you think it should. I often run into weird graphical bugs, or just bizarre renderings of processed clips, etc in Logic. 

MIDI editing is pretty great. No complaints here, it works very similarly to Logic. I need to get better at the various shortcuts for things though. #1 being able to quickly show a particular controller. In logic I have a shortcut key set to 'show expression' and 'show mod wheel' etc... speeds things up a lot. 

I was LOVING tracking through my old TDM guitar plugs, like GTR. RTAS buffer at 512 for VI's native plugs, etc... NO perceptible latency. I had a lot of fun kind of recklessly throwing reverbs and other crap on inserts and tracking through them. It has been soooo great not worrying about buffer settings. Of course you need TDM and HD for this. 

I think my biggest gripe at this point is that I haven't gotten used to PT's overall look actually. Something about the GUI makes it harder to get an overall vibe of what is going on where, and quickly. I'm so used to using option-scroll wheel in Logic to quickly zoom in and out vertically, and various combos of the modifers to go diff directions... I need to figure out an equivalent, because PT's fixed shortcuts for that stuff are not working for me. 

Also I ran into the dreaded muted outputs bug that just starts randomly shutting off sound from outputs (even though meter still acts as if its playing)... that might be the worst bug I have ever come across in any DAW. and its not like "output 1-2" its individual tracks... it only happened twice within 5 minutes, and I haven't seen it since, still a lame bug to have made it through beta.

this bug aside, I can imagine with a totally tricked out template with everything set up before hand that PT would work very well for me. Unfortunately I'm pretty far off from getting there, and it takes just a little too much time to route a single MIDI track right now. especially after adding a second instance of VEP or a third, the list of possible MIDI outputs gets confusing. yesterday during heavy revision sessions, I was struggling finding and routing things as quickly as I wanted. Maybe thats the trade off for having a multi port MIDI spec. also PT is in dire need of track presets. fyi, with Logic, I'm sort of between template and empty session for what I start out with... I have lots of tracks ready to go in folders but they are empty and then I use Channel presets to load them up when I need them (most of my logic presets open up VEP instances with a full 16 channels of kontakt loaded). 

I worked in Logic this morning for the last round of these revisions and it was a bit of a breath of fresh air. I just wish I could retain the stability and lose some of the weird quirks when a project starts to get heavily loaded. Having one instance of VEP is really great and obviously easier on the system in general, maybe we will see that in Logic X if it ever comes. 

Anyone test out the new VEP event input plugin in Logic? I have very little, seems to work 'most' of the time, had a couple times where I had to reset the plug, as it went to silence. 

Anyway, no final decisions yet, I think I will continue to move between them here and there, while getting my quick keys template set up slowly but surely so I don't have to re-program my brain too much. In my head anyway if I could find a way to keep Logic at 128 and still use a ton of VI's i think I would stick with it...unfortunately for whatever reason my system hasn't been able to do that with VEP. I have seen some posts here with lesser computers pull that off.. maybe I need to go back to the slave computer route. 

Mac Pro dual Quad 2.93
OS 10.6.9
Logic 9.1.6
PT 10
HD6
RME HDSP with digiface and rosetta 800
32 gigs RAM


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## gsilbers (Jan 11, 2012)

JohnG @ Sun Jan 08 said:


> thanks gsilbers!





hey johnG

what setup do you have for pro tools ?

do u have it on another mac pro?

what interfaces are u using?



im about to sell my old HD rig Pcix and get a macmini instead. I have an maudio lightrbidge which i can connect to my FF800rme and a big ass TV i can use for video playck out of the macmini  

i feel that pro tools HD9 is the best deal but avid pulled them off the shelf and u can only get PT10 HD for a much steeper price :( 

but maybe i dont need pthd. dunno if i wanna start fooling around with 5.1 mixing if im always asked for stereo.


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## IFM (Jan 11, 2012)

studioj @ Wed Jan 11 said:


> Anyone test out the new VEP event input plugin in Logic? I have very little, seems to work 'most' of the time, had a couple times where I had to reset the plug, as it went to silence.



The VSL guys are working on a new solution that uses an environment layer macro. As for the current method the manual has an error. You have to place an i/o plugin on EVERY instrument track, set its output to 1+2 and bypass. I am looking forward to the new method though as the current one is much more CPU intensive. 

I have found that when you have to take the one-instance-per-instrument route with VEP to set the # of processors to 1 in the server preferences. Strangely the CPU usage drops quite a bit on my system.

All this talk of PT made me download the demo to git it a whirl. Definitely not a system I am used to and it CPU spiked a bit with Kontakt 4. I haven't delved far enough into its MIDI editing to see if it is doable for the way I work...seemed a bit basic but I liked the way it hides tracks...much like DP.
Chris


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## kdm (Jan 15, 2012)

studioj @ Wed Jan 11 said:


> MIDI editing is pretty great. No complaints here, it works very similarly to Logic. I need to get better at the various shortcuts for things though. #1 being able to quickly show a particular controller. In logic I have a shortcut key set to 'show expression' and 'show mod wheel' etc... speeds things up a lot.



No short cuts on PT for that unfortunately. It's high on my wishlist - recalling controller lane layouts, zoom/height, etc, but if you can do this with Quickeys, I might have to consider moving PT to a Mac.



> Also I ran into the dreaded muted outputs bug that just starts randomly shutting off sound from outputs (even though meter still acts as if its playing)... that might be the worst bug I have ever come across in any DAW.



That may be Mac-only. Never seen it here in PT8/9/10 on Win7, but PT10/Win7 has it's own equally nasty bug: 

In PT10 only on Win7, as you add more midi tracks, record enable, record stop and tempo editing get progressively slower - a full scoring template of a couple hundred midi tracks makes tempo editing impossible when all midi tracks in ticks mode (fine if all are in sample mode). I'm thinking of switching to a Mac as I seriously doubt Avid has enough PT composers as customers to make fixing this kind of bug a priority. Fwiw.


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## studioj (Jan 15, 2012)

kdm @ Sun Jan 15 said:


> No short cuts on PT for that unfortunately. It's high on my wishlist - recalling controller lane layouts, zoom/height, etc, but if you can do this with Quickeys, I might have to consider moving PT to a Mac.



I set up a quickey to jump to expression as well as modulation from "clips" view in the edit window since that is the view I'm on mostly. So far works great. Also my main window configuration has a MIDI editor window setup with volume, mod, and expression ready to go in the lanes at the bottom. Liking the workflow much better after setting these few things up. I also created a quickey shortcut for global vertical zooming, cmmnd mouse wheel scroll. lovin that too. I've created about 10 or so quickey shortcuts including adding various tracks, as well as adding 16 midi tracks at a time. Finding unused PT shortcuts is no small thing, if anyone wants this quickeys file just shout.


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## studioj (Jan 15, 2012)

Dragonwind @ Wed Jan 11 said:


> The VSL guys are working on a new solution that uses an environment layer macro. As for the current method the manual has an error. You have to place an i/o plugin on EVERY instrument track, set its output to 1+2 and bypass. I am looking forward to the new method though as the current one is much more CPU intensive.
> 
> I have found that when you have to take the one-instance-per-instrument route with VEP to set the # of processors to 1 in the server preferences. Strangely the CPU usage drops quite a bit on my system.
> 
> Chris



Cool, thanks for the VSL info!


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## iAndy (Jan 29, 2012)

SvK @ 1/6/2012 said:


> Dragon wind,
> 
> ".... since everything ends up in PT before its dubbed to picture anyhow, why not just be in PT all the way...."
> 
> ...



But how much does this matter? I'm just getting into soundrack composing (never worked professionally), and I'm pretty fuzzy on what the flow of events is when you send your 'final' product out. It's not your full blown, original PT session is it? Can't be, can it - they won't have all your VI's, effects, etc and they probably wouldn't want to deal with that beast anyway? So you create stems (wav files?) and send those. So at that point, what does it matter that 'everything ends up in PT'? Not trying to be combative, just trying to understand, because I'm seriously considering moving to PT (from Cubase) just for that reason - everything in the pro world is PT. But when I think through the actual steps involved (my limited understanding of them, anyway), I don't see why it's so critical if you're always, in the end, sending out stems.

I'm sure my understanding is probably way oversimplified, but now's a good time for me to make the jump if it makes sense to. I don't necessarily want to - I love my Cubase - but if it will make my life easier in the long run I'm willing to change.

Any thoughts are much appreciated!


Thanks,
Andy


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## gsilbers (Jan 29, 2012)

iAndy @ Sun Jan 29 said:


> SvK @ 1/6/2012 said:
> 
> 
> > Dragon wind,
> ...



pro tools has import session data.

so once you record your stems and tracks you close pro tools. open a new session and import session data on those tracks... and u send that to the mixer. 2 minutes to do. 
so for more cues with more pro tools session then this way makes it faster. 

sending a wav track with time code is also good. but spotting each cue x20+ plus stems if u are a mixer then its kinda of a waste of time when you can get a pro tools session with all the stems so u import session data... add it to your template and thats it. takes 5 minutes as suppose to 1hr doing spotting.. making sure its right etc. 

i do a mix of outputting wav files and then i spot into pro tools and send a pro tools session with those tracks only. transfer problem goes down to 0.


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## iAndy (Jan 29, 2012)

Thanks gsilbers.

I gotcha, use PT to import your stems and send them to the mixer, rather than force him to deal with a bunch of wav files and put it together himself.

Ok, so does that mean that I'm right in saying that the original sequencer that was used to create the stems really doesn't matter, as far as compatibility with the outside 'pro' world? It's just that PT session that you imported the stems into that matters, is that right?


- Andy


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Jan 30, 2012)

iAndy @ Sun Jan 29 said:


> SvK @ 1/6/2012 said:
> 
> 
> > Dragon wind,
> ...



Crap, I'm trying to get over to Cubase for the expression maps and your trying to get to PT. Maybe I take PT for granted. Maybe a template with 200+ tracks is just the way to go. I thought that Expression maps would organize everything, but the fact you need 2 TRACKS for every sound you use in Cubase is ridiculous. 
I send midi and received back audio from VE Pro with ONE track(instrument) in PT but Cubase you send midi through midi tracks and then receive audio somewhere else entirely...not cool. I like to stay organized especially during mixing.


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## iAndy (Jan 31, 2012)

Jeff,

Did you check out Cubase's Instrument tracks? Those give you what you want, a single channnel with midi in/audio out. They work good for VSTs that support single instruments (like Vienna Instruments Pro), but not so well for VSTs that are multi-channel (like Kontakt or Play). With Instrument tracks, you need a separate instance for each track, which is probably a memory hog. And because of that I end up using separate midi and VST tracks. But even with that issue aside, I also do it for another reason: I many times use more than one midi track for the same instrument. Just flying in a punch in is so much easier if I've got a separate midi track (sometimes 2 or 3, esp with drums/percussion), rather than fussing with punch in/out points, trying to make sure I don't delete the previous part, etc. With a single Instrument track I don't have that ability.

Separate midi and VST channels is a pain though. Maybe someone's got a better workflow than what I do, I'd love to hear ideas if anyone has them.

Thanks,
Andy


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## bigdog (Jan 31, 2012)

late to the party on this thread - I've been doing everything in PT since v8 (when they got the midi up to 1995 specs). Used DP for 20 years or so before that. I produce a wide variety of styles, up to really wide orchestral stuff.Overall I'm happy with PT. There's some dopey stuff about some midi things and some notation things. The mixing environment can't be beat IMO. I do think VE Pro is a must - working great here


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## IFM (Jan 31, 2012)

iAndy @ Tue Jan 31 said:


> Jeff,
> 
> Did you check out Cubase's Instrument tracks? Those give you what you want, a single channnel with midi in/audio out. They work good for VSTs that support single instruments (like Vienna Instruments Pro), but not so well for VSTs that are multi-channel (like Kontakt or Play). With Instrument tracks, you need a separate instance for each track, which is probably a memory hog.



This is how Logic handles it. I don't find it much of a memory hog at all (in Cubase) and you can use Multi-channel instruments if you are setting up something with articulations (for example) and then create a VST Expression map for it. I supposed you could also just do a generic Exp Map than is just channels but I would rather have a VST instrument and use MIDI tracks in that case. 

Chris


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