# Why I Find The Middle East Conficts So Confusing



## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 18, 2006)

In no particular order:

- It's all about the oil, isn't it? I mean, who's making the big bucks right now? Saudi Arabian Oil Co, Exxon, BP Amoco, *National Iranian Oil Co* *, Petroleos de Venezuela, China National Petroleum, Royal Dutch Shell, Kuwait Petroleum, Chevron Texacòl‡   ?¿l‡   ?¿l‡   ?¿l‡   ?¿l‡   ?¿l‡   ?¿l‡   ?¿	l‡   ?¿
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## Thonex (Jul 18, 2006)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Jul 18 said:


> - My mother was catholic, my father's a muslim, and I married a jew - no wonder I'm confused! :shock: :roll: :lol:



Now *there's* a great family dinner :lol: :lol: 

Actually, all the points you bring up are very good. 

When I watch the news, my stomach turns because I can help imagining what it would be like if I was there with my 2 and 4 year old kids. 

Tragically, I don't thik there is any solution in the near-term.

T


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## Niah (Jul 18, 2006)

It's a millenar conflict and it will probably never stop, unless you can erase history and the past.

I used to think that most of the people in these countries wanted peace, but now it seems like the general public opinion is backing up the radicals and pollitians. They're falling into the hate propaganda and lost they're hope basically.

It will be really hard to turn things around now.


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## José Herring (Jul 18, 2006)

If you follow the actions of Standard Oil then the middle east starts to make sense. It's the US. It's always been the US couple with a little bit of influence from the Brits. It's not about money but about power. That entity that controls a planets resources controls every government and population of that planet. Power on this planet is defined by the amount of land, money, people somebody can control. Why anybody would want that kind of control is beyond me. But it's clear that some people crave it. 



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Oil

http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0312d.asp


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 19, 2006)

I'm very much against an imperialistic foreign policy, Jose, but the reason for it is pretty simple: we need the energy to maintain the way we live.


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## José Herring (Jul 19, 2006)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Jul 18 said:


> I'm very much against an imperialistic foreign policy, Jose, but the reason for it is pretty simple: we need the energy to maintain the way we live.



I agree. But, I think it would be better gotten through good communication and cooperation. The way things are progressing right now the game is only going to lead to more violence which leads me to believe that the only people perpetuating it are mad men. Extremely brilliant but mad nonetheless.


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## Brian Ralston (Jul 19, 2006)

josejherring @ Wed Jul 19 said:


> But, I think it would be better gotten through good communication and cooperation.



Tell me this Jose. How do you begin to communicate and cooperate with radical individuals whose sole devotion in life is 100% committment to your death and elimination from existence on this earth?


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## PaulR (Jul 19, 2006)

Three Days of the Condor


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 19, 2006)

I'll check that out!

Also, Syriana. Loved it.


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## sbkp (Jul 19, 2006)

Brian Ralston @ Wed Jul 19 said:


> Tell me this Jose. How do you begin to communicate and cooperate with radical individuals whose sole devotion in life is 100% committment to your death and elimination from existence on this earth?



Both sides of a war always ask that question...


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## Niah (Jul 19, 2006)

Brian Ralston @ Wed Jul 19 said:


> josejherring @ Wed Jul 19 said:
> 
> 
> > But, I think it would be better gotten through good communication and cooperation.
> ...



Well at this point communication is no longer possible, but why did we let it come to this?

What Jose said and what Nick said.

Also speaking of movies I really want to see this - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0445620/


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## Journeyman (Jul 19, 2006)

> but why did we let it come to this?


What "we" are you referring to? Fighting in the middle east has existed as long as I can remember. We've never had any real control over the situation. I'm not really sure what "we" have to do with the fact that a number of well armed, well financed, homicidal radical factions all believe that Israel is their birthright.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 19, 2006)

'We' buy or sell weapons to some of the countries involved. 'We' buy oil from countries that support some of the countries or factions involved in the conflicts. 'We' go into Iraq and look like incapable imbecilies, thereby making life easier for Iran, who supplies weapons to Hezbollah, and trades/buys nuclear technology with wonderful people like Kim Jong-Il.


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## rJames (Jul 19, 2006)

What is amazing to me...is that you can find intelligent, rational people on both sides.

How can that be? You'd think that the facts could only add up one way!

For proof, you can always look at the US congress.


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## choc0thrax (Jul 19, 2006)

Don't worry Bush is on the case. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNjCI2Xn ... 0bush%20g8


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## José Herring (Jul 19, 2006)

Brian Ralston @ Wed Jul 19 said:


> josejherring @ Wed Jul 19 said:
> 
> 
> > But, I think it would be better gotten through good communication and cooperation.
> ...



Actually they really only strike when there's a Bush in office. Most other presidents seem to communicate with these "radical" individuals just fine. I think a good place to start communicating is by not bombing their cities.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 19, 2006)

Brian, I think we're talking about two different angles of the Middle East situation. One is dealing with lunatics with rockets, the other is all the petro-politics that have been going on since the 1930s (when we stopped being the leading oil producer). OPEC has had lots of internal battles, often over who gets to sell more to the US and of course make the most money. It's pretty brutal, in fact the first Gulf war was 100% about that: Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait because they threatened to flood the market at a time when he really needed money (since he'd just finished an 8-year war with Iraq - started because he wanted one of their oil fields, as far as I can tell!). 

We get involved in that kind of thing to protect our interests. In that case (Gulf War I) the interest was in stopping him from moving into Saudi Arabia next.

Now, I'm not saying that oil is the only thing we fight wars over, but it would be naive to say that it's not a major part of the present entanglements we're involved in - despite all the protestations otherwise. Our entire society is totally dependent on cheap energy, as I said, and things may get very bumpy when fossil fuel starts becoming scarce...or (and I know you don't believe this) possibly before then, when the CO2 we're spewing creates all kinds of global crises - such as a drinking water shortage.

What's going on with Israel and Hezbollah - and all of Lebanon - is probably not an oil-related crisis. But when Iran and Syria are involved, you have to look at a lot more angles to understand all that's going on.


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## Brian Ralston (Jul 19, 2006)

josejherring @ Wed Jul 19 said:


> Actually they really only strike when there's a Bush in office. Most other presidents seem to communicate with these "radical" individuals just fine. I think a good place to start communicating is by not bombing their cities.



ok...aside from the wisecrack. I asked a legitimate question. Want to try again? Your opponent has publically stated they want you wiped off the face of the earth. They are 100% committed to the death of you and your people. There is no compromise they will make.

Ready...go!

Come on president Jose...you seem to have a better idea than what is going on...how does that process work.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 19, 2006)

Oh, and just to makes things more dangerous: religious extremists, in general, make more babies. One baby = one vote? Democracy at work, man!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 19, 2006)

"There is no compromise they will make."

But who is "they?" These countries are far from unified. What happens is that the extreme lunatics have a lot of power (because they have weapons), and from what I've heard, moderate people are afraid to speak up for fear of getting jihaded to death.


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## pdzl (Jul 19, 2006)

choc0thrax @ Wed Jul 19 said:


> Don't worry Bush is on the case. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNjCI2Xn ... 0bush%20g8



:lol: multiplied by 1000


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 19, 2006)

Hey, the West and its arab allies have a LOT of money, right? Why don't they/we just bribe the lunatic leaders to tone down their tune? :roll: :lol:


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## Brian Ralston (Jul 19, 2006)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Jul 19 said:


> But who is "they?" These countries are far from unified.



In this case, "they" is Hezbollah, backed by Syria and funded through Iran. Specifically, fundamentalist Islamic totalitarian regimes. 



Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Jul 19 said:


> What happens is that the extreme lunatics have a lot of power (because they have weapons), and from what I've heard, moderate people are afraid to speak up for fear of getting jihaded to death.



Then the moderate people will unfortunatley be defeated and killed, either by going against Hezbollah - (see Syria's assasination of the Lebanese president for that), or by the collateral unintended deaths caused when Israel attackes Hezbollah strongholds in cities like Beruit and unfortunately civilians are in the way and even used as shields by groups like Hezbollah. 

The Lebanese people are quickly learning about that.


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## kid-surf (Jul 19, 2006)

This all reminds me of two infants fighting over a ball. Only now the stakes are higher as the ball has gotten bigger and 'bit' more expensive, and the ramifications of who retains the ball is far more reaching. I guess we humans were born to be babies..... pathetic commentary on the human race in my opinion.

Combine that with religion and mob mentality and there you go.... no chance in hell for world peace. (seemingly the most natural act there is)

The ultimate prize here? ----- Simple, world inhalation (not to be confused with domination). Congrats go to the "winner"! Apparently they'll be appeased at that point???

It's hard to argue blind faith... religion is such a wonderful "creation" after all. Oops, I meant concoction. Without it they may at least have a chance in hell. Oh well, at least they have rocks.

*"moderate people are afraid to speak up for fear of getting jihaded to death."*

Great line...


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## kid-surf (Jul 19, 2006)

True... I state the obvious. And yet..............


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## Niah (Jul 19, 2006)

Journeyman @ Wed Jul 19 said:


> > but why did we let it come to this?
> 
> 
> What "we" are you referring to? Fighting in the middle east has existed as long as I can remember. We've never had any real control over the situation. I'm not really sure what "we" have to do with the fact that a number of well armed, well financed, homicidal radical factions all believe that Israel is their birthright.



I was refering to WE...the people
WE....humanity
WE...members of the human race

...and what Ned said.


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## synergy543 (Jul 19, 2006)

Brian Ralston @ Wed Jul 19 said:


> ok...aside from the wisecrack. I asked a legitimate question. Want to try again? Your opponent has publically stated they want you wiped off the face of the earth. They are 100% committed to the death of you and your people. There is no compromise they will make.


Brian, you should read your own bible: 

Deuteronomy 13:7-11 specifically states that you should "kill" those that have opposing religious views.

How's that for hypocrisy? I thought Chrisitianity was about redemption and forgiveness but there's no beating around the bush here. How do you think rational Muslims are to interpret that very clear section of the bible?

If Christian's don't take this literally, then why is it still there?


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## José Herring (Jul 19, 2006)

Brian Ralston @ Wed Jul 19 said:


> josejherring @ Wed Jul 19 said:
> 
> 
> > Actually they really only strike when there's a Bush in office. Most other presidents seem to communicate with these "radical" individuals just fine. I think a good place to start communicating is by not bombing their cities.
> ...



Pull the troops back. Defend the borders. Watch the flow of people coming in from foreign countries. Forbid American companies from selling weapons of mass destruction to other countries. Open up trade routes and alliances. Line peoples pockets. Bribe officials to give up the few people of known hatred towards the US and make them dissapear. If our CIA was effective it would be doing these things. Actually if the CIA was effective it would just infultrate the few organizations that hate the US and just assassinate the leaders and disperse the group.


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## kid-surf (Jul 19, 2006)

josejherring @ Wed Jul 19 said:


> Brian Ralston @ Wed Jul 19 said:
> 
> 
> > josejherring @ Wed Jul 19 said:
> ...



ok...aside from the wisecrack. I asked a legitimate question. Want to try again? Your opponent has publically stated they want you wiped off the face of the earth. They are 100% committed to the death of you and your people. There is no compromise they will make.

Ready...go!

Come on president Jose...you seem to haòlû   ?Ùlû   ?Ùlü   ?Ùlü   ?Ùlü   ?Ùlü   ?Ùlü   ?Ùlü   ?Ùlü   ?Ùlü   ?Ùlü   ?Ùlü   ?Ùlü   ?Ùlü   ?Ùlü   ?Ùlü   ?Ùlü   ?Ùlü   ?Ùlü   ?Ù lü   ?Ù!lü   ?Ù"lü   ?Ù#lü   ?Ù$lü   ?Ù%lü   ?Ù&lü   ?Ù'lü   ?Ù(lü   ?Ù)lü   ?Ù*lü   ?Ù+lü   ?Ù,lü   ?Ù-lü   ?Ù.lü   ?Ù/lü   ?Ù0lü   ?Ù1lü   ?Ù2lü   ?Ù3lü   ?Ù4lü   ?Ù5lü   ?Ù6lü   ?Ù7lý   ?Ù8lý   ?Ù9lý   ?Ù:lý   ?Ù;lý   ?Ù<lý   ?Ù=lý   ?Ù>lý   ?Ù?lý   ?Ù@lý   ?ÙAlý   ?ÙBlý   ?ÙClý   ?ÙDlý   ?ÙElý   ?ÙFlý   ?ÙGlý   ?ÙHlý   ?ÙIlý   ?ÙJlý   ?ÙKlý   ?ÙLlý   ?ÙMlý   ?ÙNlý   ?ÙOlý   ?ÙPlý   ?ÙQlý   ?ÙRlý   ?ÙSlý   ?ÙTlý   ?ÙUlý   ?ÙVlý   ?ÙWlý   ?ÙXlý   ?ÙYlý   ?ÙZlý   ?Ù[lý   ?Ù\lý   ?Ù]l


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## kid-surf (Jul 19, 2006)

Yes Jose, tell me/us the real answer.

Bri, don't you think this situation(s) has at least a hint of a religious 'undertone'.  Or is it all race and money.  (aside from whatever your personal views on religion are)

What does a "radical islamic terrorist" use as the catalyst/leverage if not religion? In my view it always starts there.. before money, power, greed, race and all the rest of it. It's the same ole fight, IMO.


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## Brian Ralston (Jul 19, 2006)

kid-surf @ Wed Jul 19 said:


> Yes Jose, tell me/us the real answer.
> 
> Bri, don't you think this situation(s) has at least a hint of a religious 'undertone'.  Or is it all race and money.  (aside from whatever your personal views on religion are)
> 
> What does a "radical islamic terrorist" use as the catalyst/leverage if not religion? In my view it always starts there.. before money, power, greed, race and all the rest of it. It's the same ole fight, IMO.



I think this "thing" in the middle east is completely a religious war that has been going on for hundreds of years. But in this discussion about what one should do when their lives are threatened...I don't think an attempt at pointing out the "hypocracy" of the Christian religion is going to get us any closer to the answer of what one does in the role play scenario above. 

I think the point (unless I completely missed it) that Synergy543 was making was 1) not relevent to the current discussion 2) accusatory and biased from the start due to the "you should read your own bible,..." considering this is a person I have never met and knows nothing about me, etc...


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## José Herring (Jul 19, 2006)

kid-surf @ Wed Jul 19 said:


> Yes Jose, tell me/us the real answer.



I would, but it would take a radical rethinking that I'm not sure most people are up to anymore. But it has everything to do with the way Rome was brought down to it's knees. And I will say that if you take away the fear of death from people then you take away the only real power that terroist have over people. 

The answer lies in a real understanding of who we really are.

@Brian,

That's funny. You're imagining that the "enemy" is making threats that the US has made in earnest for the past 55 years. We're now getting a taste of our own foreign policy. Tastes pretty bad when the tables are turned.

I'm not saying they're good guys. But, neither our we and this us against them mentallity will lead us to dissaster for sure.

Actually, you can do an experiment. You can go to a place that you fear the most. Walk into some gang ridden ghetto and talk to a few people. You'll see they'll warm up to you in no time.

All answers are basically simple. :smile:


----------



## Brian Ralston (Jul 19, 2006)

[quote:0f0ec8eaed="josejherring @ Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:32 pm"]
I would, but it would take a radical rethinking that I'm not sure most people are up to anymore. But it has everything to do with the way Rome was brought down to it's knees. And I will say that if you take awòm   ?Ü–m   ?Ü—m   ?Ü˜m   ?Ü™m   ?Üšm   ?Ü›m   ?Üœm   ?Üm   ?Üžm   ?ÜŸm   ?Ü m   ?Ü¡m   ?Ü¢m   ?Ü£m   ?Ü¤m   ?Ü¥m   ?Ü¦m   ?Ü§m   ?Ü¨m   ?Ü©m   ?Üªm   ?Ü«m   ?Ü¬m   ?Ü­m   ?Ü®m   ?Ü¯m   ?Ü°m   ?Ü±m   ?Ü²m   ?Ü³m   ?Ü´m   ?Üµm   ?Ü¶m   ?Ü·m   ?Ü¸m   ?Ü¹m   ?Üºm   ?Ü»m   ?Ü¼m   ?Ü½m   ?Ü¾m   ?Ü¿m   ?ÜÀm   ?ÜÁm   ?ÜÂm   ?ÜÃm   ?ÜÄm   ?ÜÅm   ?ÜÆm   ?ÜÇm   ?ÜÈm   ?ÜÉm   ?ÜÊm   ?ÜËm   ?ÜÌm   ?ÜÍm   ?ÜÎm   ?ÜÏm   ?ÜÐm   ?ÜÑm   ?ÜÒm   ?ÜÓm   ?ÜÔm   ?ÜÕm   ?ÜÖm   ?Ü×m   ?ÜØm   ?ÜÙm   ?ÜÚm   ?ÜÛm   ?ÜÜm   ?ÜÝm   ?ÜÞm   ?Üßm   ?Üàm   ?Üám   ?Üâm   ?Üãm   ?Üäm   ?Üåm   ?Üæm   ?Üçm   ?Üèm   ?Üém   ?Üêm   ?Üëm   ?Üìm   ?Üím   ?Üîm   ?Üïm   ?Üðm   ?Üñm   ?Üòm   ?Üóm   ?Üôm   ?Üõm   ?Üöm   ?Ü÷m   ?Üøm   ?Üùm   ?Üúm   ?Üûm   ?Üüm   ?Üým   ?Üþm   ?Üÿm   ?Ý m   ?Ým   ?Ým   ?Ým   ?Ým   ?Ý              òm   ?Ým   ?Ým   ?Ý	m   ?Ý
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## PaulR (Jul 19, 2006)

[deep sigh]

Sometimes I feel incredibly sorry for the normal, everyday people that live in middle eastern countries, whose only produce has been oil. This has made them extremely vunerable to circumstances. It's made the countries that produce oil very lazy - they seem unable or unwilling to produce anything else. I would love to see the end of oil, cars, planes etc and get back to sailing ships and horse drawn carriages.

No one else agrees at this point though.

:mrgreen:


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## midphase (Jul 19, 2006)

I ride my bike a lot....does that count?


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## PaulR (Jul 19, 2006)

midphase @ Wed Jul 19 said:


> I ride my bike a lot....does that count?



Absolutely - and it's so very good for you in the long term. 

Unfortunately, the downside is that you have to breath in all those hideous fumes from all those hideous 4 tracks (generally driven by hideous fat people with completely forgettable, hideous diets) the size of small lorries. Oil always wins in the end.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 19, 2006)

PaulR @ 19/7/2006 said:


> Oil always wins in the end.



Actually, and respectfully, no. In the end, oil runs out. Whatever replaces it wins. :smile:

I'm getting a hybrid next year, and will get a better one in a few years when cars run on hydrogen.


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## synergy543 (Jul 19, 2006)

Brian Ralston @ Wed Jul 19 said:


> I don't think an attempt at pointing out the "hypocracy" of the Christian religion is going to get us any closer to the answer of what one does in the role play scenario above.
> 
> I think the point (unless I completely missed it) that Synergy543 was making was 1) not relevent to the current discussion 2) accusatory and biased from the start due to the "you should read your own bible,..." considering this is a person I have never met and knows nothing about me, etc...



So you suggest we not reflect upon our own selves? :???: Lets just point our fingers and guns at the enemy like North Korea? When we don't recognize our own extreme points of view we risk being as barbaric as the enemy. Although in this case, we become our own worst enemies. We have created many more terrorist than Osama bin Laden or Saddam Hussein could have ever dreamed about.

Maybe you don't read the bible but we do have a Christian based society last time I check on the back of a dollar bill it said "In God we Trust". So my apologies if my assumption was wrong. However, this is clearly a war over oil and religion. President Bush even referred to it as a Crusade at one point. And last I heard, he was also trying to sell Iraqi democracy to the Soviet Union. Clearly we have little tolerance for differences even among our allies. Yet, it is their lack of tolerance that bothers us.

Sometimes reflection isn't necessarily a bad thing. Right now we're not building many friends in the world nor are we setting up an opportunity for peace with our arrogant attitudes and one-sided perspective.


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## kid-surf (Jul 19, 2006)

Brian Ralston @ Wed Jul 19 said:


> kid-surf @ Wed Jul 19 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes Jose, tell me/us the real answer.
> ...



Yes. But I was referring to my own comments in regards to religious influences.


As for the role play scenario. Well, I just don't see a way to appease people who are so devout (i.e. blind faith). How does one hope to reason with that? I'm not sure there's a way to crack that egg. It's been thousands of years in the making.


I think we're about 200-300 years away from world peace. What do I believe the 'fix' to be?.... Technology. (we just gotta hope that capitalism is ultimately more powerful than religion-izm)


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## kid-surf (Jul 19, 2006)

midphase @ Wed Jul 19 said:


> I ride my bike a lot....does that count?




I skateboard a lot... does that count? 


Hey... can you tow me if I buy a rope?


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## PaulR (Jul 20, 2006)

synergy543 @ Wed Jul 19 said:


> Brian Ralston @ Wed Jul 19 said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe you don't read the bible but we do have a Christian based society last time I check on the back of a dollar bill it said "In God we Trust".
> > So my apologies if my assumption was wrong. However, this is clearly a war over oil and religion. President Bush even referred to it as a Crusade at one point.



In God we Trust - it's also got some other little symbols on the back of it that I wouldn't trust for more than 5 seconds.

Interesting that you write 'a Crusade' with a capital C. Could that be a grammatical Freudian slip? It's a crusade - as opposed to The Crusades, of which there were about five or six and not all of them were unfriendly. And they certainly were not about oil.


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## PaulR (Jul 20, 2006)

kid-surf @ Wed Jul 19 said:


> midphase @ Wed Jul 19 said:
> 
> 
> > I ride my bike a lot....does that count?
> ...



Absolutely. My car is limited to 155 mph. This I would like to do but only in America. Of course I would naturally drive on the wrong side of the road and have cameras set up in the car facing front and back - so a later TV audience (with the attention span of a gnat) could watch your terrified expression, and simultaneous oncoming traffic terror, set to Herrmann's Psycho driving music. I see money here.

Petrol - it's a wonderful thing.


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## Trev Parks (Jul 20, 2006)

PaulR @ Thu Jul 20 said:


> Absolutely. My car is limited to 155 mph.



Mine wont push past 100mph. Could you tow me too?


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## José Herring (Jul 20, 2006)

PaulR @ Thu Jul 20 said:


> synergy543 @ Wed Jul 19 said:
> 
> 
> > Brian Ralston @ Wed Jul 19 said:
> ...



I think to the Freemasons God is just money.


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## Ed (Jul 20, 2006)

synergy543 @ Wed Jul 19 said:


> Maybe you don't read the bible but we do have a Christian based society last time I check on the back of a dollar bill it said "In God we Trust". .



You know that was only added in the 60s, right?

"_The motto IN GOD WE TRUST was placed on United States coins largely because of the increased religious sentiment existing during the Civil War_. "

-U.S. Treasury

And dont forget the 1st ammendment.


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## PaulR (Jul 20, 2006)

[quote:996a4ffc62="Trev Parks @ Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:17 am"][quote:996a4ffc62="PaulR @ Thu Jul òmt   ?ôÝmt   ?ôÞmt   ?ôßmt   ?ôàmt   ?ôámt   ?ôâmt   ?ôãmt   ?ôämt   ?ôåmt   ?ôæmt   ?ôçmt   ?ôèmt   ?ôémt   ?ôêmt   ?ôëmt   ?ôìmt   ?ôímt   ?ôîmt   ?ôïmt   ?ôðmt   ?ôñmt   ?ôòm


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## andersmaah (Jul 20, 2006)

There is another side to the current state of the world that many people perhaps are not aware of (although the military and secret police in many countries are definitely accutely aware of it): middle east seems to be a main stage, but it is in fact the Chinese Communist Party -- the largest remaining totalitarian regime left in the world.

They are playing a strategic game against especially the U.S. by supporting regimes and different groups with money and weapons. According to what I have read (check out http://china-e-lobby.blogspot.com/ and http://chinaconfidential.blogspot.com/ for example), it signed economic agreements with Wahhabists in the Taliban (the same day the World Trade Center fell), and helped Osama bin Laden launder drug money. They have a long history of economic and military ties to Syria, whose Ba’athist regime, according to some commentators, has been a Hezbollah protector and ally for years. They installed a fiber-optic network in Iraq to help Saddam Hussein integrate his entire defense network, and then sold him missile gyroscopes and other military technology for oil-for-food vouchers. It has been closely involved in Iran’s nuclear weapons program, and has been the Khomeinist regime’s largest missile parts benefactor (and according to some, Iran is al Qaeda's new base).

And of course, it is North Korea's main benefactor, and it also supported Milosovic in his war, and it supports Mugabe a lot.

So what is ongoing (if we look at it from another perspective than the struggle for resources) is perhaps like the second cold war, only that it takes place in a highly strategic and "refined" way, while it is business as usual on the surface.

Without China's involvement, the situation would probably look totally different. But actually, many people think the Chinese Communist Party is on the way down, although it looks strong on the surface. But then, on the other hand, because of its internal problems that are building up, the Chinese Communist Party is perhaps also stirring up things outside of its country (a common technique) to divert world attention from what is going on inside.

One example is the current exposure of one of the worst crimes the world has ever seen, organ harvesting from live people (mostly Falun Gong practitioners, it seems) that are kept in secret concentration camps, as "raw materials" within the military system. If, and when, the full scale of these crimes will become fully exposed, it might mean immediate crisis for the Chinese Communist Party. Therefore, it tries different methods of diverging attention.

Although it might be just a coincidence, it is quite interesting that Hizbollah launched their attacks very close in time to the release of an independent report in Canada that affirmed that the allegations about organ harvesting of live people in China are true. Just speculating.

The communist party has changed on the outside, but its core has perhaps not changed. Just to remind who we are talking about here, this was the Party who supported the Red Khmers in their genocide of some millions of people. Over its over 50 year long rule, it has caused over 80 million unnatural deaths among the Chinese, either through direct persecution or through conscious neglect.

Anyway, just another perspective in the discussion. 

And after writing this, I guess I should make it clear that I have nothing against China (and the CCP is not China -- although Chinese are taught from play school that they are one and the same) or Middle Eastern countries -- I love the Chinese culture and respect the cultures of the Middle East -- I have friends coming from both of these cultures. It is only violence, disrespect of life and human rights that I am against.

Anders


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 20, 2006)

You're right, I never heard about any of that.


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## midphase (Jul 20, 2006)

Israel is bombing the crap out of Lebanon and Syria....effectively taking the lives of a few Hezbollah members and a lot of civilians who just happen to be caught in the crossfire. Being a "sympathizer" IMHO doesn't necessarily warrant a death sentence.

The general reply that Israeli officials and analysts give is "Hezbollah is so embedded with the civilian population that we have no other choice. What else are we going to do?"

I find this argument to be flawed, all that Israel is achieving by bombing these cities is increasing hatred. 

(hypothetical) Let's say I'm a Lebanese citizen who doesn't really mind Israel that much....now let's say Israel just destroyed my home and killed my wife. I will now go and grab the closest rocket launcher I can find and fire it towards Israel and devote my life to kill as many Israelis as possible. (end hypotethical)

I believe a more sensible approach would be to slowly turn Arab opinions around by helping to develop the surrounding countries, by bulding homes and hospitals and sending volunteers to help and spread a sense of brotherhood. This will probably take decades to accomplish but ultimately it's the only solution that I see. Some will say that Israel has tried that but IMHO they haven't tried hard enough. 
I just wish that governments would realize that they can't win the hearts of people (same with Iraq, Afghanistan, etc) with bombs.

I see Palestinians here as being a bit like American Indians who got displaced from their land and limited to reservations....maybe Palestinians should build some casinos!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 20, 2006)

They're not bombing Syria yet, thank goodness. But what you're suggesting is exactly what Hezbollah has done: buy support by giving.

I've said all along that if we wanted to fight terrorism, we'd be a lot better off building hospitals and feeding people in the Middle East than spending $ hundreds of billions killing them. That alone wouldn't do it, of course, but what we've done now - alienate the entire Muslim world - isn't exactly the way to convince people not to join terrorist organizations.


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## Niah (Jul 21, 2006)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7828123714384920696 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 4384920696)


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## Dave Connor (Jul 21, 2006)

synergy543 @ Wed Jul 19 said:


> Deuteronomy 13:7-11 specifically states that you should "kill" those that have opposing religious views.



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## midphase (Jul 21, 2006)

> You would probably agree that it would have been better if someone killed Hitler before he had any effect. Also that killing him would be just and noble.



Killing Hitler perhaps....but killing the millions of Germans who at the time shared his views and opinions...probably not.

I agree with Nick, there is no "figurehead" to get rid of. If it was as simple as that, nations would have done that decades ago! Look at what's happened to Iraq! Bush idiotically thought (or led everyone else to think) that once Saddam was gone Iraq would magically become Main Street Disney! Same with Bin Laden....if they can even get to him, it won't change a thing as there will be someone else ready to take his place! Coming to this conclusion is as easy as the calculation of a milkman!!!

I hope Israel stops the bombing as a gesture of good faith towards a cease-fire before things get out of control. Any day now another country could get into the fight, and from that point on it would probably be too late to stop.


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## José Herring (Jul 21, 2006)

midphase @ Fri Jul 21 said:


> > You would probably agree that it would have been better if someone killed Hitler before he had any effect. Also that killing him would be just and noble.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with Nick, there is no "figurehead" to get rid of. If it was as simple as that, nations would have done that decades ago! Look at what's happened to Iraq! Bush idiotically thought (or led everyone else to think) that once Saddam was gone Iraq would magically become Main Street Disney! Same with Bin Laden....if they can even get to him, it won't change a thing as there will be someone else ready to take his place! Coming to this conclusion is as easy as the calculation of a milkman!!!



I agree. But, In the case of Hitler it was the timing. He could have been gotten to when he was running around with his thugs killing all the german officials in his car. That would have been easy. But once he get's his ideas to the mainstream and they get support then it becomes more than just one man.

Hezbollah is actually quite different. There are two parts to Hezbollah, one civilian and one military. There's no clear figure head but the guy that has the most control of the military is the intelligence officer Imad Mugniyah

Getting rid of the figure head will certainly make the organization less effective. And helping the civilian part of the party with it's educational and healthcare purposes would pretty much solve the problem, imo.

To Hezbollah's credit though they don't seem to be interested in much other than resisting outside influences and developing their civilization. We would do well by pulling our military out of the middle east and to stop giving Isreal weapons to use against Arabs.


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## Brian Ralston (Jul 21, 2006)

josejherring @ Fri Jul 21 said:


> To Hezbollah's credit though they don't seem to be interested in much other than resisting outside influences and developing their civilization.



In this case...what was Hezbollah resisting to start this? Israel was out of Lebanon and has been for years. Really...I would like to know.


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## Brian Ralston (Jul 21, 2006)

midphase @ Fri Jul 21 said:


> I hope Israel stops the bombing as a gesture of good faith towards a cease-fire before things get out of control.



Israel came to the table first a few days ago and offered to the stop the bombing campaign if the two Israeli soldiers were released. Hezbollah quickly and emphatically rejected the offer. I really don't see gestures of good faith working in situations where a group like Hezbollah has an adjenda (the destruction if Israel) and will fight to the death to make that happen. They don't care what Israel has to offer. They want them to not exist. They don't care about trade...healthcare...anything. They just want them to not exist. That to me is Germany 1940's.


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## José Herring (Jul 21, 2006)

Brian Ralston @ Fri Jul 21 said:


> josejherring @ Fri Jul 21 said:
> 
> 
> > To Hezbollah's credit though they don't seem to be interested in much other than resisting outside influences and developing their civilization.
> ...



Well the invasion into Lebenon and the 22 year occupation maybe has a little residual emotional charge still left in it for the Shiites. In truth there's a lot of blame to go around. Blaming one side isn't going to solve the problem that's for sure.

*But if ya wanna polish yaw shotgun and drive over there in yaw pickup to see if you can shoot ya some Aeyrabs, more power to you.*

I'm from Tucson too. Have you forgetten about the killings of Arabs from some of our very own "terroist" right in the Old Pueblo.

Plenty of bias and hatered on both sides. A little understanding and talking and less bombing and occupation might go a long way. At least it would be something new. All this war gets really old very fast. You kill my brother. I kill you. You bomb my people. I bomb you. You have big guns. I get bigger. 

Duh.

The calculation of Milkmen.

José


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## Brian Ralston (Jul 21, 2006)

josejherring @ Fri Jul 21 said:


> Well the invasion into Lebenon and the 22 year occupation maybe has a little residual emotional charge still left in it for the Shiites. In truth there's a lot of blame to go around. Blaming one side isn't going to solve the problem that's for sure.



Years ago now...Israel was told, "end the illegal occupation and the violence will stop." So...Israel years ago conceeded to getting out of Lebanon. Six years ago the border between Lebanon and Israel was internationally recognized and the "illegal occupation" of Lebanon by Israel was over. Lebanon rebuilt...became a small country beginning to thrive on tourism and the likes. Hezbollah, whose sole purpose to exist was to drive Israel out of Lebanon was orderd by the U.N. to disarm. (diplomacy at work with these people :roll: ). Did they disarm? No. Why? I submit because it was never about Israel occupying Lebanon. I submit it was because it has always been about Israel and its Jewish people existing at all. Six years now of Israel being out and no reason to do anything. Now, Hezbollah kidnaps Israeli soliders and starts launching rockets into Israel again. And of all the things to condem and speak out against...you choose to criticize Israel basically saying they had it coming. "residual emtional charge"???? 

Not buying it Jose. No one inch. Especially when I don't see many posts here criticizing Hezbollah for specifically targeting innocent civilians and starting an unprovoked war. "residual emotional charge" is no excuse. The motives of Hezbollah guided by Iran and Syria are more sinister and global reaching than most of Israel's critics would like to admit. Israel understands this clearly and is in the middle of a battle for their existence...period. 



> *But if ya wanna polish yaw shotgun and drive over there in yaw pickup to see if you can shoot ya some Aeyrabs, more power to you.*



Nice prejudiced redneck comment Jose. What would scientology say about how that reflects upon you and the implications in a comment like that? You are better than that and you know it. 



> I'm from Tucson too. Have you forgetten about the killings of Arabs from some of our very own "terroist" right in the Old Pueblo.


 I am not from Tucson, I am from L.A. I lived there for 9 years during undergraduate college and a few years afterward. 



> Plenty of bias and hatered on both sides. A little understanding and talking and less bombing and occupation might go a long way. At least it would be something new. All this war gets really old very fast. You kill my brother. I kill you. You bomb my people. I bomb you. You have big guns. I get bigger.
> 
> Duh.
> 
> ...



Agreed about the bias and hatred on both sides. But at some point these sides will have decided there is nothing left to talk about. I believe both sides have come to that point already. You don't.


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## Dave Connor (Jul 21, 2006)

To clarify: my point was that "killing" does not automatically make someone a criminal and in fact may be at times the only way to stop the crime of murderous aggression.

As far as the current flare up in the Middle East, I don't think it's any secret that there are governments and factions operating within weak governments (as in Lebanon) that are hell-bent on wiping Israel off the map: genocide. I don't think you can honestly say that Israel has a charter like that. They just want to survive. You can say that they over-react militarily but these people have been on the other end of the barrel for thousands of years and nearly exterminated only a few dozen years ago.


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## midphase (Jul 21, 2006)

True, but in this case if Irael wants to truly co-exist peacefully with their neighbors, they're going to have to do a hell of a lot more humanitarian efforts than they ever have done.

The essentially have to change the minds of populations which have been their enemies for thousands of years into people who see them as assets to the region.

I personally don't think Israel cares that much about being liked...they obviously have military superiority and some nice nuclear weapons to keep the "real" troublemakers at bay. A good friend of mine of went to Israel a few years ago to visit family (being of Israeli descent himself) told me how appaled he was at the way Israeli treated the Palestinians as second class citizens. There is no love coming from either direction....but at some point someone has to be the "better man" and stop this.


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## José Herring (Jul 21, 2006)

Brian Ralston @ Fri Jul 21 said:


> Agreed about the bias and hatred on both sides. But at some point these sides will have decided there is nothing left to talk about. I believe both sides have come to that point already. You don't.



You're just describing the exact cycle that leads to war, but not realizing that if you find something to keep talking about war wouldn't happen. Trust me. Both sides still have a lot to talk about.



Brian Ralston @ Fri Jul 21 said:


> Nice prejudiced redneck comment Jose. What would scientology say about how that reflects upon you and the implications in a comment like that?



Nothing about the comment itself. Everything about it being directed towards a well intentioned individual. For that I will apologize. But since you mentioned it I will say that one of the fundamental beliefs is that Scientology can achieve a civilization on Earth where there is no war. Maybe it's a dream but it's worth believing in.

Read for yourself: http://www.scientology.org/html/opencms/cos/scientology/en_US/religion/presentation/pg014.html (Aims of Scientology)
also:
http://www.humanrightsareality.org/pg004a.html (Universal Declaration of Human Rights)


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