# Orchestral mixes: Do you use console and tape plugins?



## Leandro Marcos (Jan 16, 2018)

How many of you use analog emulation plugins (console, tape, etc) on your mixes for orchestral (or hybrid orchestral) mixes ? If you do, what's your FX chain?

Thanks!


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## AKberlin (Jan 21, 2018)

Last year in March I joined the Universal Audio platform and I love the plugins. 

Mostly I use the Studer Tapemachine for Strings and Guitars (it's just magic! but not always), the Pulteq EQs for Groups (whenever something is needed) and sometimes also subtle amounts of the compression (LA2A).


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## davidgary73 (Jan 21, 2018)

I use Acustica Audio plug-ins which some here extremely disliked them due to heavy CPU usage, latency etc. 

I use the Nebula 4 (3rd party libraries) SSL 9000K or the AMS 88RS Consoles with Softube Tape on all instruments. Workhorse EQ, Console 1 9K series and Acustica Audio Acqua Lime C compressor to glue everything.


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## muk (Jan 21, 2018)

What effect are you trying to achieve? I suspect you are asking if these plugins can add a desireable 'mojo' to your orchestral mixes. After all, that is usually the allure of these plugins. They are certainly not the problem solver kind of mix plugins.
In my opinion it adds very little to an orchestral mix. If you use the effects so much that they become audible it's usually a detrimental addition. And if you use less so that it isn't audible - why add it at all?

If you look how classical recordings are done, they are almost exclusively all done digitally. And that has nothing to do with digital recordings just being easier to handle. If any conductor/recording engineer in the classical world thought that tape sounded 'better', they would be recording to tape no matter the hassle. But digital recordings are more transparent, i. e. they don't introduce the effects these plugins try to replicate, and that is what usually is wanted for orchestral recordings.
Now, things might be different for epic orchestral tracks or hybrid music. Maybe there the plugins could help to 'fatten up' the orchestral sound. I don't know how these styles are recorded, so I can not comment on that. For classical music, and I'd assume it's the same for film music in most cases, the goal is usually as transparent and faithful a recreation of the orchestra playing as possible. Engineers work hard to 

Another thought process behind using tape and console emulation plugins is the attempt to recreate real world recording chains. Users of homerecording studios with very little and /or inexpensive gear usually try to get the sound of those expensive consoles by adding the plugins to the mix. Unfortunately the succes of this undertaking is slim in my opinion. With orchestral samples it is even more limited, and it isn't a logical thought process either. Because the samples already were recorded through a good console. So they have the 'sound' of a console baked in already - the fact that no one ever hears it or is talking about it speaks volumes about it's relevancy. I heard no one ever complain about 'the SSL sound' Eastwest's samples were recorded with (I am making example this up), or 'I only wish these samples had been recorded on a Studer console instead'. It's just not a relevant factor. Adding another 'console sound' on top with a plugin doesn't change much, and it doesn't make much sense to me for orchestral samples.

What's left, then? As you can guess by now I am not a fan of tape and console plugins for orchestral samples. The only use I see is if you want to recreate a vintage sound for a specific effect. For me that hasn't come up yet. Other than that I didn't find that they add much at all. But the best way is to experiment for yourself, see what it does for you, and then draw your own conclusions.


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## Aeonata (Jan 21, 2018)

Leandro Marcos said:


> How many of you use analog emulation plugins (console, tape, etc) on your mixes for orchestral (or hybrid orchestral) mixes ? If you do, what's your FX chain?
> 
> Thanks!



I sometimes do, but more so on sources that I feel need some grit or special treatment, not so much on orchestral sounds.
Keep in mind, that most professional orchestral libraries were already recorded through a high-end analog console.


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## Saxer (Jan 21, 2018)

I tried some of those plugins a while ago but I just can't hear a difference. Like a difference between 320Kb/s mp3 and WAV. I know there is a difference but I can't hear it. So there's no difference for me.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Jan 21, 2018)

In fact, it is very difficult to hear the difference on a single track, unless using a very obvious emulation (for exemple, hard to miss the added lows when using the Neve console on Slate VCC). These plugins begin to shine when you add them on every track of your mix, there is definitely a difference there. 

That being said, being different doesn't always mean being better 

I personally almost always use the Slate VCC (Console) and/or VTM (Tape machine) on rock, metal or hip hop mixes, especially when it is recorded at home. Most of the time when mixing orchestral samples, I just add some gentle tape or console saturation on the master, or run the mix through my Shadow Hills pres.


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## ptram (Jan 21, 2018)

muk said:


> If you look how classical recordings are done, they are almost exclusively all done digitally.


The switch from ADD to DDD recordings was a shock to me. The sound became cold and clinical, without the typical "fat/round" sound of the old recordings. And we were going from Karajan/Bernstein to the newer, uninspiring stars, so it was not only the sound, but the whole musicality to fall.

Paolo


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## Silence-is-Golden (Jan 21, 2018)

Kush audio clariphonic may be useful. It does so to my ears, brings some extra definition and/or width.


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## JJP (Jan 21, 2018)

I usually use them on individual tracks. The good ones like UAD Studer and Neve 88rs have a cumulative effect that helps things to gel the mix together in a subtle way.

I'll use the UAD Ampex on the final bus. I like the way it compresses just a bit and gives a bit of warmer coloration that helps to smooth out the overall mix. If I start to notice it too much, then I back off lest things start to sound too "retro".


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## RiffWraith (Jan 21, 2018)

muk said:


> What's left, then? As you can guess by now I am not a fan of tape and console plugins for orchestral samples. The only use I see is if you want to recreate a vintage sound for a specific effect.



That's not the only use for tape and console plugins.

What I think most people are trying to achieve here - and the funny thing is most people know what it is, but don't know how to explain it nor what to call it - is the mojo you mentioned in your post. Ok, people know how to say "mojo", but what is it exactly? Simple - it is the degradation of audio you do not get with digital summing. There is a lot going on when individual tracks of audio are run through a LFAC, and there are many gain stages along the way, such as op amps, relays, line amps, etc., which - albeit subtle - degrade the audio. And that's what's missing from a render done in your DAW - even if the samples were originally recorded through a good LFAC. The console plugins try and emulate this, but due to marketing concerns, you will probably never hear any dev use the term _degradation of audio._

I use Slate's VCC. It does not accurately mimic an analog sum, but it does something to the audio that kinda-sorta gets in that direction. So, that comes with a recommendation from me, FWIW.

I also use this:

https://store.louderthanliftoff.com/collections/all/products/silver-bullet-void-corp-edition

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-...-liftoff-silver-bullet-first-impressions.html

That ^ will get you closer to a LFAC sound, like nothing else. It is of course HW outboard gear, so that needs to be a consideration.

I also use a HW stereo bus compressor, which takes things one step further.

If you have any Qs about the Silver Bullet, both Brad (email from site) and Bill (pm via GS forum) are very approachable, and have no problem helping out.

Cheers.


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## ptram (Jan 22, 2018)

RiffWraith said:


> it is the degradation of audio you do not get with digital summing.


Is it degradation, or the addition of some yummy creamy harmonics that are not added by an all-digital process? Is the icing on the cake to be considered degradation?

Paolo


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## RiffWraith (Jan 22, 2018)

ptram said:


> Is it degradation, or the addition of some yummy creamy harmonics



Degradation and harmonics are the same thing, assuming we are all on the same page about what harmonics are.

Look up *THD*

Cheers.


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## ceemusic (Jan 22, 2018)

2 bus: Acustica's Ivory EQ, LIFT, Diamond, Alex B's MFC , R88 console Mixbus, & Tim Petherick's 37J Tape


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## VinRice (Jan 22, 2018)

I use the Brainworx Channel N (the cleanest one - Neve) across all tracks for Orchestral. For electronic and hybrid I will also use the E and G variations (SSL) - the eq on the G is particularly outrageous. The micro-variations between instances that has been engineered in has a pleasing 'enriching' effect, particularly across 60 tracks or more.

I use the Slate tape on electronic busses but it's too much on orchestral which tend to be pretty warm in the low-mids as they are. You do have to watch out for overdriving the channels with orchestral instruments, which just sounds wrong. Horns or trumpets at full chat have a lot of upper-mid energy. You can't overdrive the channels at all in Logic normally so it comes as a shock when the the horns sound like they are overdriving a real desk.

I love the sound; wouldn't dream of mixing without them now.


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## ptram (Jan 22, 2018)

RiffWraith said:


> Degradation and harmonics are the same thing


Minus the negative connotation of "degradation". Harmonic distortion is good!

Paolo


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## Gary Williamson (Jan 26, 2018)

i use Waves j37 on the master buss just to glue it all together.


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## robgb (Jan 26, 2018)

Here's a free plugin that adds analog coloring to your mix.

https://sonimus.com/products/soneq/


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## fixxer49 (Jan 26, 2018)

Leandro Marcos said:


> How many of you use analog emulation plugins (console, tape, etc) on your mixes for orchestral (or hybrid orchestral) mixes ? If you do, what's your FX chain?
> 
> Thanks!


In my humble experience, development of programming and orchestration chops has been inversely proportional to reliance on compression, saturation and reverb.

Simply put - slapping on “gluing” effects such as tape and consoles is a somewhat misguided attempt to inject reality into orchestral mockups, and kind of a sloppy (and ultimately ineffective) shortcut for masking inferior programming and orchestration. I haven’t heard your work, so this is obviously not aimed at you. I’m speaking solely of my OWN painful experiences as a shitty programmer & orchestrator


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## Studio E (Jan 26, 2018)

Ok, what I'd like to add, is that not a single mix leaves my studio without adding Slate's VCC to all of the stems, including the effects stem, the 2-buss, and I often add tape as well. That just depends on whether or not it benefits the source. Does it sound like a real console. I couldn't tell you. Does it add something that I REALLY like as a cumulative effect? Heck yes it does, without a doubt.I use FG-N as far as console emulation. It just sounds good to me. It sounds bigger and it adds a weight to the low end that is not eq. It's similar to the weight real transformers add to a signal. I really really like it. Also, I like my mixes to be a bit more exciting than just like a classical recording. In fact, I think film music is WAY different than classical in the way it is recorded and produced (obviously) so I think that that is a bad comparison. 

Now I will also say, if you don't know how to mix, this isn't going to fix anything for you. You need to learn how to mix, which starts with arrangement/orchestration, then levels, then EQ, maybe compression (not often with orchestral instruments), and finally effects. Once you can balance and do necessary EQ'ing, getting a decent, clear mix, then I would say that the VCC adds the other 5-10% I was looking for.

To Muk's comment that the samples are already recorded by a console, that may be true, but they aren't summed through one, only captured. That's honestly only less than half of the effect that consoles have on the source. It's in the summing that much more of that console sound gets in there. 

If you are really interested in it, Slate is a subscription for $15 a month. Just give it a go. I personally love it and wouldn't ever give it up without a replacement. Like I said, on all stems and the master or 2-buss.


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## bryla (Jan 26, 2018)

I just started my subscription for the slate bundle and I'm really liking the VCC and VTM for mixing my orchestral recordings. I was thinking of doing comparison mixes with those versus waves NLS


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## ceemusic (Jan 27, 2018)

I've always preferred Slate's over NLS, however I been using 3rd party Nebula consoles (mainly Alex B ) for the 6 years. Trade-off is performance / high cpu using Nebula / Acustica products but the results are clearly better.


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