# Cinesamples Velocity Control



## Zibon (Jun 15, 2021)

Hello, this is my first post at VI, although I have been visiting the forum for several years now. 
In any of the Cinesamples libraries, I cannot find a way to control sustain or legato dynamics with velocity. I can trigger articulations with velocity ranges, but I cannot get the changes in velocity to affect dynamics. I have only been able to control dynamics with the mod wheel (or CC). I wish to control it with velocity. There are other libraries that I also have this issue with, but there are some that do this either by default or with an easy setting change. What am I missing here? Thanks in advance!

Shawn P Malone


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## Laurin Lenschow (Jun 16, 2021)

Hey Shawn,
I'm not sure if there is a way to fix your problem. I don't quite get _why _you want to control dynamics with velocity though - I understand it might be more intuitive that way, but the results you will get using the modwheel will be more realistic. Real players of strings, brass or woodwind instruments are able to change dynamics _while _playing a note; if you use velocity you are unable to do that.


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## Al Maurice (Jun 16, 2021)

Hi @Zibon -- have you checked out the mapping tab on your library's interface, you may need to make some adjustments there depending on the patch, as straight out of the box the behaviour may be different than you expect.

I find some experimentation is often required.


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## Zibon (Jun 16, 2021)

Laurin Lenschow said:


> Hey Shawn,
> I'm not sure if there is a way to fix your problem. I don't quite get _why _you want to control dynamics with velocity though - I understand it might be more intuitive that way, but the results you will get using the modwheel will be more realistic. Real players of strings, brass or woodwind instruments are able to change dynamics _while _playing a note; if you use velocity you are unable to do that.


Thank you for the reply Laurin. I understand what you are saying about mod wheel vs. velocity. I do utilize the mod wheel in those situations. My issue is that I am not a proficient keyboardist so I tend to make a pass of playing a part however sloppy it may be, and then go back and adjust the midi events for the correct feel, dynamics, and personality. So it is already difficult for me to just play a part without having to work the mod wheel too. A lot of what I'm doing works out well with just adjusting velocities after the fact, so I was trying to find a way to do that in Cinesamples. Thank you again!


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## Zibon (Jun 16, 2021)

Al Maurice said:


> Hi @Zibon -- have you checked out the mapping tab on your library's interface, you may need to make some adjustments there depending on the patch, as straight out of the box the behaviour may be different than you expect.
> 
> I find some experimentation is often required.


Hello Al, I have looked at that and I cannot get that to happen in Cinesamples. You can initiate an articulation change with a velocity range, but if that articulation is sustain or legato, then velocity does not effect dynamics. Again, unless I am missing something in the mapping section. it always seems to be controlled by the mod wheel or another assignable CC. I can get this to happen in other libraries, and yet, not in some other ones. Thanks so much for the reply.


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## mybadmemory (Jun 16, 2021)

In almost all current orchestral libraries the dynamics of long notes are indeed controlled via mod wheel, whereas the dynamics of short notes are controlled via velocity.

Some let you change this but not most. It’s just the norm, based on how to get the best sound of them.


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## mybadmemory (Jun 16, 2021)

The no one saying you need to play the notes and the mod wheel at the same time though. Many people play in the notes first, and then either do a second pass with the mod wheel, or simple draw in the CC automation with the mouse.


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## rudi (Jun 16, 2021)

As others have said the reason most sustained sound libraries use CCs is to emulate how real instruments are played, e.g they change timbre and / or volume throughout the duration of a note.

A while ago the Kontakt guru @EvilDragon posted a short script you can load into Kontakt to map note velocity to CC:






Velocity to CC1?


I'm trying to use Bravura Brass with midi files and since dynamics (and volume) are controlled with CC1 and not velocity, the volume is one level through the whole midi file. Can I change CC1 based on the velocity of each note in Kontakt?




vi-control.net





He has also posted on how to load scripts into Kontakt:









How To Load Scripts


i have a script, in the form of a text file and an nkp file. what do i need to do and where do i put files for kontakt to load them, for kontakt 4 or...




www.native-instruments.com





I would recommend learning to use the mod wheel and CCs to control most sound libraries.
Mike Verta has a couple of Youtube tutorial explaining the how and why of using CCs:






Of course, as others have pointed out it's perfectly fine to add CCs after recording your parts.


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## Zibon (Jun 16, 2021)

I will definitely check out the script! Thanks for that rudi. I fully understand the realism of using the mod wheel. At times I can do it while I am playing simpler parts. I actually love using it, but again, I can't play anything that's somewhat involved while using the mod wheel with any real success yet. I should've also stated that the parts I'm referring to don't call for this type of expression. With those types of parts, I have always found it easier to control the volume adjusting velocity values instead of tons of volume automation. That's really what it comes down to. I'm just trying to not write a bunch of volume automation for somewhat "static" parts that need some volume changes on certain notes...as opposed to during the note. Thanks for the videos also! I definitely need to dive into CCs a bit more.

mybadmemory, thanks for the info. I figured this was the case as it seems these libraries are made, rightfully so, with a functional keyboardist in mind (who can effectively play 2 hands and use CCs, keywitches, pedals, etc). Not a complaint, mind you...I have always done fine and been highly productive basically "jotting down" my parts as best I can and then going back and editing them. From your info, it at least seems that I haven't missed a setting in these libraries. Also, I have tried a few times writing the mod wheel info after playing the part, I just haven't done it a lot. When I did, I found I was doing a lot of editing to what I laid down...which isn't all that bad honestly. I think this is how I will proceed when I need this type of expression until I get better at using the mod wheel live. Again, thanks so much for all the help and info.


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## mybadmemory (Jun 16, 2021)

I don’t think most people here play two handedly and control the mod wheel at the same time, or that the libraries are made for keyboard virtuosos.

Sure, some people do use a pedal, but I’m sure most of us either play one handed melody parts plus mod wheel live, or two handed harmony/chord parts without the mod wheel, and add it either in a second pass or by drawing it in with the mouse.

Orchestral music always always requires a whole lot of midi editing after the fact. Of notes. Of velocities. Of CC’s. In fact I think that’s where most people spend most of their time to get things realistic.


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## rudi (Jun 16, 2021)

It's all about finding what works best for you. Playing live, in step time, in multiple passes, using notation or key view, velocity, modwheel, controllers... or any combination. It's all about getting the results you want and spurring your creativity. 
As @mybadmemory wrote I doubt most people play two handedly and control the mod wheel at the same time  
Like all crafts it takes time to develop and we all learn all the time. 
Welcome to this exciting journey!


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## Al Maurice (Jun 17, 2021)

Libraries are all quirky -- that is until we learn how to best use them in our workflow.

Sometimes however hard we try, it's not possible to gel with them. That's why it's always handy to check out some videos to see how other composers are using them. So whilst you can play the lines in, if you've watched some of Mike Patti's videos, you'll notice he tends to program his lines in multiple passes. Leaving this library as not one you can just play and leave. There are newer libraries with performance patches that can cater for that style of working like performance sampling or Infiinite Brass.

At the time Cinebrass was originally developed, on approaching changing dynamics it was generally norm to use velocity for shorts and the mod wheel for pretty much everything else. Preferences change over time. 

But I find that unlike many other libraries, Cinebrass is quite configurable and can be adjusted to work in various different ways. And if it helps you can just use the mod wheel to change all the dynamics, which may lead to a smoother line in any case. And just use velocity for applying the overlays and accents. That's Cinebrass default use case.


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## Kent (Jun 17, 2021)

Zibon said:


> tons of volume automation.


It’s also recommended that you leave Volume pretty much alone once you’ve got it initially set up. Automating CC7 can lead to some pretty funky performances!


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## Zibon (Jun 17, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> I don’t think most people here play two handedly and control the mod wheel at the same time, or that the libraries are made for keyboard virtuosos.
> 
> Sure, some people do use a pedal, but I’m sure most of us either play one handed melody parts plus mod wheel live, or two handed harmony/chord parts without the mod wheel, and add it either in a second pass or by drawing it in with the mouse.
> 
> Orchestral music always always requires a whole lot of midi editing after the fact. Of notes. Of velocities. Of CC’s. In fact I think that’s where most people spend most of their time to get things realistic.


*mybadmemory:* That would be quite the accomplishment!...playing 2 hands and the mod wheel at once! I realize that, I just didn't word it correctly. I meant being able to pull off any number of those techniques, not necessarily simultaneously. I also didn't mean that the libraries are just for keyboard virtuosos, I meant they employ a design that has features that can benefit someone that has at least a functional grasp of playing (like using keywitches or pedals while playing...all things I can't do haha). So if you can take advantage of some of these features live, you can save a little time and have a smoother creative flow sometimes. (instead of hit record, play a chord, hit stop, move my fingeres to the next chord, hit record, play the chord, hit stop, next chord...that's me haha) It's good to hear that extensive editing is the norm and it appears I'm doing the same process as you described...playing one handed and going back and adding the modifiers after. I cant play 2 handed but it's not a problem...it would just speed things up a bit. Again, thank you for the info and discussion.


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## Zibon (Jun 17, 2021)

rudi said:


> It's all about finding what works best for you. Playing live, in step time, in multiple passes, using notation or key view, velocity, modwheel, controllers... or any combination. It's all about getting the results you want and spurring your creativity.
> As @mybadmemory wrote I doubt most people play two handedly and control the mod wheel at the same time
> Like all crafts it takes time to develop and we all learn all the time.
> Welcome to this exciting journey!


*rudi:* Yes, I agree. I've been a working musician, audio engineer and video editor for 30 years. Compared the days of tape, what I am able to do now is astonishing and very rewarding and gratifying. And an early lesson was that there are multiple ways to get the same result, just as you were saying. I can't even move chords around on a keyboard with one hand, but somehow I've been producing music for licensing and film/TV for 20 years haha. I've only recently decided to try to do full orchestra pieces and I'm enjoying every part of it. MUCH more involved that the synth based soundtrack type stuff I was doing....again, loving the journey! In the end, I want to combine orchestra and synth, but the orchestra work is so new and exciting right now, I want to keep exploring that on its own. Thanks for the welcome!


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## Zibon (Jun 17, 2021)

Al Maurice said:


> Libraries are all quirky -- that is until we learn how to best use them in our workflow.
> 
> Sometimes however hard we try, it's not possible to gel with them. That's why it's always handy to check out some videos to see how other composers are using them. So whilst you can play the lines in, if you've watched some of Mike Patti's videos, you'll notice he tends to program his lines in multiple passes. Leaving this library as not one you can just play and leave. There are newer libraries with performance patches that can cater for that style of working like performance sampling or Infiinite Brass.
> 
> ...


*Al:* Thanks for that great info. In the short time I've been working on orchestral pieces, I have already bonded more with certain libraries, relegated others to specialized uses, and marked some as ones I just don't gel with. I do watch quite a bit of videos. There seems to be an endless supply. I always learn a lot from them. Again, I appreciate your insight on this.


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## Kent (Jun 17, 2021)

Zibon said:


> *mybadmemory:* That would be quite the accomplishment!...playing 2 hands and the mod wheel at once! I realize that, I just didn't word it correctly. I meant being able to pull off any number of those techniques, not necessarily simultaneously. I also didn't mean that the libraries are just for keyboard virtuosos, I meant they employ a design that has features that can benefit someone that has at least a functional grasp of playing (like using keywitches or pedals while playing...all things I can't do haha). So if you can take advantage of some of these features live, you can save a little time and have a smoother creative flow sometimes. (instead of hit record, play a chord, hit stop, move my fingeres to the next chord, hit record, play the chord, hit stop, next chord...that's me haha) It's good to hear that extensive editing is the norm and it appears I'm doing the same process as you described...playing one handed and going back and adding the modifiers after. I cant play 2 handed but it's not a problem...it would just speed things up a bit. Again, thank you for the info and discussion.


Try playing the right rhythms in and fixing the notes after the fact.


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## mybadmemory (Jun 17, 2021)

Zibon said:


> *mybadmemory:* That would be quite the accomplishment!...playing 2 hands and the mod wheel at once! I realize that, I just didn't word it correctly. I meant being able to pull off any number of those techniques, not necessarily simultaneously. I also didn't mean that the libraries are just for keyboard virtuosos, I meant they employ a design that has features that can benefit someone that has at least a functional grasp of playing (like using keywitches or pedals while playing...all things I can't do haha). So if you can take advantage of some of these features live, you can save a little time and have a smoother creative flow sometimes. (instead of hit record, play a chord, hit stop, move my fingeres to the next chord, hit record, play the chord, hit stop, next chord...that's me haha) It's good to hear that extensive editing is the norm and it appears I'm doing the same process as you described...playing one handed and going back and adding the modifiers after. I cant play 2 handed but it's not a problem...it would just speed things up a bit. Again, thank you for the info and discussion.


I’d say keyswitches too would be something few people actually play in live. Most people would probably play the part in with one articulation active, and add the keyswitches afterwards in the piano roll, while editing the midi data since that’s something you always do anyway.

I started out trying my best to avoid programming, just wanting to record stuff and move on, but soon realized there’s no way around it. Note lengths. Velocities. Keyswitches. CCs. Tempo changes. The more time spent on programming, the more realistic the result.


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## Zibon (Jun 21, 2021)

Just wanted to say thanks for the great conversation! My intial question led to some good insights into general workflow. I appreciate the discussion. This was a great first post for me! Thanks again!


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## river angler (Jul 11, 2021)

Laurin Lenschow said:


> Hey Shawn,
> ... but the results you will get using the modwheel will be more realistic. Real players of strings, brass or woodwind instruments are able to change dynamics _while _playing a note; if you use velocity you are unable to do that.


This is only true for the crescendo/decrescendo part of any sustained note but not for the all important entry dynamic. Even a true keyboard player would expect to hear a greater starter volume/timbre level by striking the keys harder. It seems over time so many developers have all but forgotten about the initial dynamics of sustain type sample playability. Relying on the modwheel/cc control for both the initial and sustained dynamics of any sustain articulation is in fact restrictive in terms of yielding the most realistic, musical results.

As a keyboard player myself I very much sympathise with the OP's desire to use key velocity to play in his sustained instrument parts and in fact I find it quite poignant that even a non keyboard player has raised this issue which is a glaring omission in so many orchestral libraries today.

Ideally key velocity should always control initial timbre/volume dynamics followed by what the modwheel should really ONLY EVER be used for: crescendo/decrescendo.

When real violinists strike the strings do they have to move something prior to striking those strings to get a greater or lesser initial dynamic? No! of course not! A violinist strikes the key with appropriate initial force from his arm action (velocity) to start the desired tone/volume of the sound and then BOWS more or less pressure (modwheel) to increase/decrease the intensity of the sustained note as the bow moves across the strings.

To mention two of the biggest, Cinesamples and Spitfire, are unfortunately like so many other library developers out there that only ever allow modwheel control of dynamics for legato/sustain type articulations. At least Orchestral Tools offer an either or scenario with all their samples including sustains. However Chris Hein is one of the few library devs I know of that truly replicates the natural functional dynamic action of any real orchestral player with simultaneous use of both key velocity and cc control. This gives one the most natural way to play in musical parts by allowing velocity to control initial dynamics (string players initial force onto the strings or wind/brass players initial force of air into the instrument) followed by the modwheel to crescendo or decrescendo the sustained note as desired (pressure on the bow as it continues to be drawn across the strings or the air continues to be blown with greater or lesser force through the wind/brass instrument)

Developers shortsightedness at only implementing cc control also renders using their sustained articulations for spontaneous dynamic live performance playing impractical especially amidst other sound sources within a combie patch. Take a simple scenario of piano and legato strings being played together: one never uses a modwheel to trigger piano dynamics! However if a desired legato string articulation is only controllable via cc it won't react in tandem to the piano's key struck dynamics. Keyboard workstations have always used key velocity control of legato strings for this very reason!


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## Zibon (Jul 11, 2021)

Hi river angler, you have expressed oh so well, many of my feelings on the matter. The analogy of the piano is spot on and, mostly I am referring to parts that don't require dynamics during the duration of the note. I realize one can get used to most anything, but I wish it was at least a switchable option in many of these libraries...for many of the reasons you have pointed out. Even when I cannot properly play a part, it seems much easier for me to go back and edit event velocities rather than drawing cc automation...but, again, that's just the fastest way for ME. I can see how others would be very fast and proficient using or editing the modwheel/automation. Also, when I get into a lot of modwheel automation, I find that there's a bigger chance for things to go awry for me..."What happened to that middle clarinet part?...it was there before...oh the modwheel automation..." I'm sure I will get better at it, I just find that it'd be nice to have that option to switch.

I have seen the Chris Hein, I will look into it further. Thanks. And I do have some Orchestral Tools products...I love being able to choose and it's one I go to often because of that (although I had it awhile before I accidentally clicked on XFADE and saw it switch to VELOCITY! haha)

It was nice to hear another view, especially from a keyboardist. Thanks again for the reply!


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## Laurin Lenschow (Jul 12, 2021)

river angler said:


> This is only true for the crescendo/decrescendo part of any sustained note but not for the all important entry dynamic. Even a true keyboard player would expect to hear a greater starter volume/timbre level by striking the keys harder. It seems over time so many developers have all but forgotten about the initial dynamics of sustain type sample playability. Relying on the modwheel/cc control for both the initial and sustained dynamics of any sustain articulation is in fact restrictive in terms of yielding the most realistic, musical results.
> 
> As a keyboard player myself I very much sympathise with the OP's desire to use key velocity to play in his sustained instrument parts and in fact I find it quite poignant that even a non keyboard player has raised this issue which is a glaring omission in so many orchestral libraries today.
> 
> ...


If the Modwheel was a fader with infinite space in both directions, I would agree with you.
However, unless I'm getting something wrong, it would work out like this:
You play a note with velocity 67 for the initial dynamic and you then want to go up to velocity 100 during the sustained note. Unfortunately the last position of your modwheel was not 67 (allowing for a smooth way up) but 32, so as soon as you start moving it upwards, there is a very unnatural jump from 67 to 33. The only way to avoid this would be to always match the position of the modwheel to note velocity, which is impossible to pull off during a live performance and makes the use of velocity obsolete.

(I hope I phrased that correctly, English is not my first language.)

Edit: Even if the modwheel picked up the dynamics correctly (avoiding the unnatural jump I described), you would still have to match it to your velocity, if you don't want to loose a lot of (potential) expression. If your velocity is 41 and you want to perform a crescendo, but your modwheel currently is at 100, you could only go up to 68.


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## river angler (Jul 12, 2021)

Laurin Lenschow said:


> If the Modwheel was a fader with infinite space in both directions, I would agree with you.
> However, unless I'm getting something wrong, it would work out like this:
> You play a note with velocity 67 for the initial dynamic and you then want to go up to velocity 100 during the sustained note. Unfortunately the last position of your modwheel was not 67 (allowing for a smooth way up) but 32, so as soon as you start moving it upwards, there is a very unnatural jump from 67 to 33. The only way to avoid this would be to always match the position of the modwheel to note velocity, which is impossible to pull off during a live performance and makes the use of velocity obsolete.
> 
> ...


In an ideal world yes! the modwheel would be like an endless encoder that picked up from the least velocity value and in that sense one could actually use an endless encoder should your keyboard be equipped with one! 

You are of course correct in your description about a potential bump with scripting that does not compensate for the last position of the modwheel however with Chris Hein's libraries the scripting is in place to compensate for this. For studio composition work where one can work in post it's easy to add cc swells even using a conventional modwheel over the initial velocity played in parts. From a live performance perspective using a conventional modwheel or volume type pedal controller may not be ideal but that is where at least having control of initial dynamics via how hard one strikes the keys is at least possible. 

In fact when you mention about having the modwheel in the right position for continuing on from where the velocity left off: in the same vane, and what is precisely my point, how unnatural is it to have to move the modwheel into the correct position prior to every note struck when initially playing in notes!

Furthermore if you then think about individual notes within a chord, if the library only uses cc control of dynamics you have no way of playing in separate dynamics of each note within those chords. Often when I am spontaneously playing in ensemble parts it is vital to be able to strike certain notes within chords with a different dynamics and indeed be able to swell or de-swell those notes respectively from their initially triggered dynamic: again just like real ensemble players within an orchestral section!


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## river angler (Jul 12, 2021)

Zibon said:


> Hi river angler, you have expressed oh so well, many of my feelings on the matter. The analogy of the piano is spot on and, mostly I am referring to parts that don't require dynamics during the duration of the note. I realize one can get used to most anything, but I wish it was at least a switchable option in many of these libraries...for many of the reasons you have pointed out. Even when I cannot properly play a part, it seems much easier for me to go back and edit event velocities rather than drawing cc automation...but, again, that's just the fastest way for ME. I can see how others would be very fast and proficient using or editing the modwheel/automation. Also, when I get into a lot of modwheel automation, I find that there's a bigger chance for things to go awry for me..."What happened to that middle clarinet part?...it was there before...oh the modwheel automation..." I'm sure I will get better at it, I just find that it'd be nice to have that option to switch.
> 
> I have seen the Chris Hein, I will look into it further. Thanks. And I do have some Orchestral Tools products...I love being able to choose and it's one I go to often because of that (although I had it awhile before I accidentally clicked on XFADE and saw it switch to VELOCITY! haha)
> 
> It was nice to hear another view, especially from a keyboardist. Thanks again for the reply!


Again I find it most ironic that a non keyboard player feels the same way about this issue!

Indeed this is why I only use Chris Hein and Orchestral Tools for my main orchestral instruments! I do have a few of the Spitfire "EVO" type libraries but even with those you can not even control the basic volume of the samples via key velocity which is such a pity for live performance as the samples themselves are superb!


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