# The Study of Orchestration Third Edition



## minimax (Mar 14, 2017)

*https://www.amazon.com/Study-Orchestration-Paperback-Samuel-2002-12-23/dp/B01NH0C0MR/ref=mt_paperback?_encoding=UTF8&me= (The Study of Orchestration Third Edition) by Samuel Adler*

Is this book good for all around learning harmony, counterpoint and other orchestration stuff?


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## Blackster (Mar 14, 2017)

I have this one (together with the Audio-CDs) and it's a great resource of information ... BUT ... if you wanna learn harmony, counterpoint and "other orchestration stuff" I don't believe that these thick books are an efficient way to learn. I use that book for looking stuff up quickly but as a learning guide, it is not motivating or inspirational. 

Of course, every person is different and it might work great for you  ... the first few days, I was motivated and read through the pages while listening to the examples but after 2 weeks or so I came to the conclusion that this is not fun and efficient. But if you have a solid understanding of music theory already, you know where to open the book and all the information is there.


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## minimax (Mar 14, 2017)

Blackster said:


> I have this one (together with the Audio-CDs) and it's a great resource of information ... BUT ... if you wanna learn harmony, counterpoint and "other orchestration stuff" I don't believe that these thick books are an efficient way to learn. I use that book for looking stuff up quickly but as a learning guide, it is not motivating or inspirational.
> 
> Of course, every person is different and it might work great for you  ... the first few days, I was motivated and read through the pages while listening to the examples but after 2 weeks or so I came to the conclusion that this is not fun and efficient. But if you have a solid understanding of music theory already, you know where to open the book and all the information is there.



Thanks for your answer.
I know some basic theory, problem with me is that I use same chord / triad notes too much.
I can create melody, I can harmonize it with triads, I can do piano arpeggio, and stuff like that.
I did understood theory is just about scales, and what sounds good basically, I have feel for that already.

My problem starts with arranging strings...
What I mean is, I would go on bass with voicing note, violas and violins (high strings with 3rd and 5th from triad), adding melody on similar notes, adding counter melody on almost same notes, and all around will be muddy sounding, so my track with just strings is already very muddy, and like this I am stuck for almost 2y.
Basically, two patches, high strings and low strings from Metropolis Ark1 would already sound muddy in my case, and would be without any "flow" in it.
As I add more strings, it becomes more muddy, because I am spinning around triads, even I tried adding changes to high strings, middle strings.
I am trying to have low strings as bass, middle, and high strings, and I add some variations on high strings, so it doesn't go as same motion, still its not that, not good at all, and than if I add melody which is same notes, staccato things...I would mess it up badly.

I planned to buy this book, if it really has such info on how do I avoid same motion which makes muddy tracks.

I am not very good at English, hope you did understand what I am trying to say.


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## jonathanprice (Mar 15, 2017)

I keep a copy of the second edition on my desk. It's definitely helpful for orchestration and voicing. But its focus isn't harmony and counterpoint. I have no idea what's considered a good voice-leading text nowadays. My freshman theory text was this:

TECHNIQUES AND MATERIALS OF TONAL MUSIC, With an Introduction to Twentieth Century Techniques (2nd Edition) by Thomas Benjamin, Michael Horvit, and Robert Nelson

I found it pretty straightforward at the time, but I'd taken a theory course in high school (cannot remember the textbook, or even if there was one), so it was mostly review. A one- or two-semester course in theory is a great idea.


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## tokatila (Mar 15, 2017)

No.

For harmony, No.
For counterpoint, No.
For orchestration, a little.

I mean you learn what the playing styles are for what instrument and what their ranges with examples and that takes about 2/3 of a book and after reading that you are not any wiser how to orchestrate. Then you have a about hundred pages of the scoring for orchestra stuff, which...isn't so helpful anyway.


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## sazema (Mar 15, 2017)

This one is free: R.Korsakov - Principles of Orchestration
http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/77-Principles-of-Orchestration-On-line


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## did (Mar 15, 2017)

"For counterpoint, No."
Totally agree with Tokatila.

Learning counterpoint need a real training. I thought myself that taking a few course will improve my way of writing, but when I asked for a few course in an "online school", the teacher told me that I had to take the formation at the beginning. He was right. In my case I had a good background in harmony, and my way to manage the counterpoint was only "empirical". I realized that when I've started courses, I had to learn first of all a technical, and practice...a lot ! In this formation (perhaps in all…) you start the counterpoint note / note, 2 notes / note, 3 notes / note … and do a lot of exercises with teacher corrections and advices.
Always speaking for myself, very difficult to learn counterpoint alone, and if possible, you'll achieve with a very specific book I think. I don't know the third edition, so I will not speak about it, but I own the samuel adler second edition, and would say that this is not a book for learning counterpoint.
I hope this helps.
Didier
www.projet10-4.com


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 15, 2017)

I'm not sure what book some of these members are talking about, but it isn't *Study of Orchestration* by Alder. The book I know is widely considered the greatest book on Orchestration available (most producers and composers I know, and I know legion, back me up on this).

It's not meant to learn counterpoint from, but there is more than enough information on inter-instrumental harmony writing in that book to say YES it features information on both harmony and the orchestration.

The Rimsky-Korsakov and Forsythe books are really good too...but I wouldn't quite consider them a substitute for the Adler...not at all. Adler first, with Rimsky-Korsakov as a second viewpoint, yes.

Au fond: GET THE ADLER! Don't listen to the naysayers. That book will be a lifelong treasure to you as a composer, orchestrator. Trust me on this.


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## did (Mar 15, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> Au fond: GET THE ADLER! Don't listen to the naysayers. That book will be a lifelong treasure to you as a composer, orchestrator. Trust me on this.


Just speaking about counterpoint


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## tokatila (Mar 15, 2017)

douggibson said:


> Au fond: GET THE ADLER! Don't listen to the naysayers. That book will be a lifelong treasure to you as a composer, orchestrator. Trust me on this.



Just speaking from a personal experience.  And yes, I should have wrote "no, not the most time-efficient way from my personal experience, especially if you are not doing anything for live orchestra and self-studing without a professional tutorage." It looks nice on bookshelf though.


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 15, 2017)

tokatila said:


> Just speaking from a personal experience.  And yes, I should have wrote "no, not the most time-efficient way from my personal experience, especially if you are not doing anything for live orchestra and self-studing without a professional tutorage." It looks nice on bookshelf though.



You don't know what you're talking about.


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## tokatila (Mar 15, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> You don't know what you're talking about.



Maybe so, I'm glad it worked for you.


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## Leon Willett (Mar 15, 2017)

Well, I'm with tokatila too. In my experience no book has offered an actual nitty-gritty method of how to orchestrate one's own music. Back in the day I read Adler from cover to cover (about 500 pages!) and found basically an instrumentation text (a description of each instrument separately), like the Rimsky but more long-winded, and then a collection of examples on how music has been orchestrated in the past. 

Both are useful, especially the instrumentation. 

But it's not a METHOD on how to orchestrate your music, bar-to-bar. It is a look at how it has been done before. Leaving you to try to piece together the principles. 

So when tokatila says that the Adler will help "a little" in answer to the OP... in my opinion it is accurate :D


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## JJP (Mar 15, 2017)

minimax said:


> *https://www.amazon.com/Study-Orchestration-Paperback-Samuel-2002-12-23/dp/B01NH0C0MR/ref=mt_paperback?_encoding=UTF8&me= (The Study of Orchestration Third Edition) by Samuel Adler*
> 
> Is this book good for all around learning harmony, counterpoint and other orchestration stuff?



This is definitely not a book for learning harmony and counterpoint.

For orchestration, it's an excellent reference on instrumentation and the basic mechanics of orchestration, but it is most often used as a textbook for a broader curriculum.

It may not be the best book to self-teach orchestration. Some people may find it helpful for self-teaching if they also use the workbook. However, the workbook assumes you already have a solid harmony/theory foundation, and to me it seems to work better in a guided context with a teacher.

Disclaimer: The last version of the workbook I examined was from a few decades ago, but my understanding is that it is still basically the same.


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## CT (Mar 15, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> I'm not sure what book some of these members are talking about, but it isn't *Study of Orchestration* by Alder. The book I know is widely considered the greatest book on Orchestration available (most producers and composers I know, and I know legion, back me up on this).
> 
> It's not meant to learn counterpoint from, but there is more than enough information on inter-instrumental harmony writing in that book to say YES it features information on both harmony and the orchestration.
> 
> ...



Indeed. Not sure what anyone could be looking for as far as "method" beyond an elucidation of principles gleaned from great music of the past, which Adler provides quite amply. Armed with this knowledge, let loose with your imagination and... orchestrate. What more can anyone tell you? As with composition itself, there's only so much that can be "taught," and then you just have to get thrown into the pool and flail around until you swim. 

And no, this is in no way a book to turn to for anything beyond what its title involves.


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## Dave Connor (Mar 15, 2017)

You can't really have too many books on a subject like orchestration especially if you consider every score ever written something that can be studied. The textbooks as mentioned above all have benefits.
The study of composition including harmony, counterpoint, etc., is most efficiently studied with a teacher without a doubt. If not then you will have to slug your way through whatever texts and workbooks are available. A good Jazz theory book would be a way to get down the road much faster in regards to Harmony because it starts with a modern approach and not with an older basis (the triad) and nomenclature (description on how the harmony is functioning: i.e. diatonically) and process (the procedure as to how harmony is built; put into sequential order and related to by the composer/observer.)


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 15, 2017)

Dave Connor said:


> You can't really have too many books on a subject like orchestration especially if you consider every score ever written something that can be studied. The textbooks as mentioned above all have benefits.
> The study of composition including harmony, counterpoint, etc., is most efficiently studied with a teacher without a doubt. If not then you will have to slug your way through whatever texts and workbooks are available. A good Jazz theory book would be a way to get down the road much faster in regards to Harmony because it starts with a modern approach and not with an older basis (the triad) and nomenclature (description on how the harmony is functioning: i.e. diatonically) and process (the procedure as to how harmony is built; put into sequential order and related to by the composer/observer.)



+1 very true.


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## CT (Mar 15, 2017)

+1 for Brant's "Textures and Timbres." It's an absolute essential!


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