# Orchestration for Strings Sections



## HarmonyCore (Apr 12, 2020)

Hey Everyone,

I am struggling on how to arrange an orchestration for strings sections (or even brass). I read few articles on the subject but they were either academically intensive or lacking in details. The best article I came across so far was Evenant's creating more realistic string mockups. It was a decent article and I learned the basics of making my strings sound lush and rich. I even signed in their waiting list for their "Cinematic Music: From Idea to Finished Recording" course. It has many positive reviews.

Until the course is open again, can I get some useful tips from pros to work on now and get the sound more richer?

Thx


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## Iswhatitis (Apr 12, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> Hey Everyone,
> 
> I am struggling on how to arrange an orchestration for strings sections (or even brass). I read few articles on the subject but they were either academically intensive or lacking in details. The best article I came across so far was Evenant's creating more realistic string mockups. It was a decent article and I learned the basics of making my strings sound lush and rich. I even signed in their waiting list for their "Cinematic Music: From Idea to Finished Recording" course. It has many positive reviews.
> 
> ...


Strings in particular can be orchestrated often similarly to how you would play the piano.


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## JohnG (Apr 12, 2020)

there are free videos on Spitfire's or Christian Henson's playlists. Suggest you consider those, since they tend to be pitched to people who are not necessarily academically schooled and also because they are aimed at media composers for the most part.


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## ProfoundSilence (Apr 12, 2020)

something you can toy around with on your own would be inputting a single whole note on all 5 sections, and experimenting with voicing a chord multiple ways. Range is a big deal. 

IMSLP is another free and amazing resource. Love the way Verdi voices the Brass in the opening of dies irae? Pull up the sheet music. Love the tragic voicing of Tchaikovsky's 6th, 4th movement? well it's not a secret, right there on the page. 

My advice is to do both, experiment and find excerpts you like and see what they did. One time I just listened to a bunch of tutti chords and then wrote them all in a grand staff with different color markers. One time I armed various woodwind patches in unison/octaves and came up with a brief description of what it reminds me of.


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## youngpokie (Apr 12, 2020)

Are you orchestrating a melody or a chord?


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## ProfoundSilence (Apr 12, 2020)

youngpokie said:


> Are you orchestrating a melody or a chord?


hopefully both. that's the fun part of the most homogeneous section in the entire orchestra


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## Gil (Apr 13, 2020)

Hello,
There's a video course about strings by the excellent Thomas Goss who owns Orchestration Online:








The String Section Tutorial & Online Course - Orchestration 101 Training Video By macProVideo.com


Join A-list orchestrator, Thomas Goss – along with top professional orchestra players – and learn the art of composing and orchestrating for strings!




www.macprovideo.com


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## HarmonyCore (Apr 13, 2020)

youngpokie said:


> Are you orchestrating a melody or a chord?



Both indeed


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## youngpokie (Apr 13, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> Both indeed



I find that a lot of online courses deal mostly with instrumentation (what/how instruments can play), rather than with how to actually write to orchestrate as opposed to how to write for this or that instrument. Often, they confuse more than explain. Also, I think the practical ways or orchestrating a melody vs chord are not always the same.

For example, a few ways to orchestrate the melody:

- Double your melody in unison or octave(s). Gives you a thick sound. You can double in several octaves for a really dramatic effect (e.g. Violins I high voice, Violas low voice, Violins II split 50-50% between them in unisons), great for culmination/climax.

- Double the melody at an interval. E.g. - copy/paste from Violins I into Violins II and lower by a 3rd or a 6th. You'll have to move individual notes of the new melody up/down by semitone where needed if you want it to remain in the same key. This technique is useful when you repeat the main melody for the 2nd time, after the introduction, adds richness and interest.

- Double the melody by inversion. Keep the pattern, but invert it (notes move in opposite direction versus main melody). Again, you'll need to move appropriate notes up/down a semitone if you want to remain in key.

- Fragment the doubled melody. Take any type of doubled melody (unison, interval or inversion) and remove some of the notes keeping those that are accents or important chord tones, then shape what's left into a meaningful rhythmic or melodic fragment, with pauses, etc. You can also fill the parts of remaining instruments' with variations of this fragmentation technique to create interesting group accompaniment to main melody.

- Split the melody between instruments. For ascending melody, start it with cellos and hand it over to violins as it moves up its arc (make sure the split point is meaningful for the melody), for example. Gives you more expressive sound. You can also combine this with doubling: cellos play the full melody and violins double only the climactic ascending parts. This gives you an expressive crescendo. Or, in reverse, the descending melody can start in violins I and get handed to violas/cellos as it moves down. Combined with reverse doubling, this is great for diminuendo (some instruments stop playing as melody moves down).

- Fill pauses/gaps in melody by having other instruments play small rhythmic fragments or echoes of it (same or different notes/tessituras). This adds more interest, especially if you repeat the main melody more than once. Or, go full polyphony.

When it comes to orchestrating chords, I think the attention shifts to texture and overall effect of the desired sound. Some basic techniques:

- Basic voicings. The generic chord orchestration is basses doubling cellos, then the rest of instruments play chord notes in higher tessitura to achieve the separation of bass.

- Wide voicings. For more interesting sound, you can spread all the chords notes and not just the bass, and spread the instruments quite wide across several octaves. This gives you a totally different sound. Combined with articulations (e.g. con sordino or flautando) totally changes the mood/effect.

- Switch the voices. If chord notes are close enough together, you can switch instruments. For example, violas swapping positions with violins II. The idea is that an instrument sounds more expressive when playing in its higher or lower range versus the natural middle range. Celli swapping with violas, violins I with violins II, etc. The sound of such chord becomes much more intense.

- Thin out the chord. Instead of playing all triad notes, remove those that are implied (e.g. remove the 5th of the chord, but keep the 3rd).

- Fill out the chord. Double the chord notes (usually the top voices, but also those that supporting the melody as 3rds or 6ths, especially if not doubling). This can change focus and thicken the sound.

- Figurate the chord. Rather than holding a stationary chord, have instrument(s) play chord notes in some pattern (e.g. arpeggio). You can also combine this with doubling and splitting to achieve a crescendo or textural changes, as if this figuration effect is expanding (moving up/down in range or getting louder) or contracting (the reverse), so it's possible to figurate over quite a few bars and extremely effectively. You can even have two different figurations going on at the same time. Bass ostinato in this sense is a form of figuration.

- Use a pedal. Depending on the chord progression, you can have basses hold a note for quite a bit, while things are happening in other instruments. This can also be used with the split-doubling, where the pedal seems to be expanding and growing. The effect is often striking, creates a lot of anticipation and builds tension.

===
There are a lot of other considerations, such as voice leading, full orchestra versus string orchestra and others. But I think for practical writing, there's absolutely no reason not to use these even if the implementation is not always perfect - you will still learn a lot by trying them out.


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## HarmonyCore (Apr 13, 2020)

youngpokie said:


> I find that a lot of online courses deal mostly with instrumentation (what/how instruments can play), rather than with how to actually write to orchestrate as opposed to how to write for this or that instrument. Often, they confuse more than explain. Also, I think the practical ways or orchestrating a melody vs chord are not always the same.
> 
> For example, a few ways to orchestrate the melody:
> 
> ...



This explanation looks more than awesome. I will definitely try them out and see what I come up with. Thanks for the effort you put in such wonderful explanation.


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## DaddyO (Apr 13, 2020)

youngpokie said:


> I find that a lot of online courses deal mostly with instrumentation (what/how instruments can play), rather than with how to actually write to orchestrate as opposed to how to write for this or that instrument. Often, they confuse more than explain. Also, I think the practical ways or orchestrating a melody vs chord are not always the same.
> 
> For example, a few ways to orchestrate the melody:
> 
> ...



This may be the most helpul answer to this question I have ever seen. It gives a composer a toolkit to work with. Master the toolkit and you are well on your way.


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## JohnG (Apr 13, 2020)

guys -- I'm not disagreeing that @youngpokie has a good post. It is. But holy smokes! That's just a handful of ideas of the millions available.

Without notation and book-learnin' it's going to take for-ever to learn more than a handful of orchestration techniques. Yes, you can write a good melody and chords with just a piano or guitar/voice, but if you actually want to write for a real orchestra (or even a good fake one), you need to learn stuff.

How?

*1. Scores *-- they are unavoidable. If you can only get one, try Ravel. If you can stomach a few, add Richard Strauss, John Williams (the film composer), Debussy, maybe Respighi's Pines of Rome (the latter has been imitated many times -- why not you too!)

*2. Orchestration book* -- books may seem more boring than a Youtube video but they tend to be much more efficient; they usually are better organized and coherent, and follow a thought-out trajectory. I like Samuel Adler's The Study of Orchestration which comes with available MP3s; if you buy a used copy, be sure to get the CDs or access to the MP3s or else it will be useless.

*3. Hire a pro* -- I learned from books and also from having my blunders pointed out to me by mentors, including J. Eric Schmidt (teaches at USC these days when he's not writing) and Pete Anthony, both of whom know of which they speak. If you don't know what you are doing, then hire an experienced orchestrator to review your score.

So, if you are fortunate enough (or rich enough) to get your hands on an orchestra, pursue one or all of the above. Otherwise, your first time with an orchestra may be a crushing disappointment. If you are paying for it, that's bad. If someone else is, that could be quite a bit more bad.

[one addendum: players remember composers who wrote rubbish that was unplayable. Most player communities, even in London or Los Angeles, are not so vast that the word wouldn't get around. So don't embarrass yourself -- not saying you would, but.]


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## Sears Poncho (Apr 13, 2020)

JohnG said:


> *1. Scores *-- they are unavoidable. If you can only get one, try Ravel. If you can stomach a few, add Richard Strauss, John Williams (the film composer), Debussy, maybe Respighi's Pines of Rome (the latter has been imitated many times -- why not you too!)



I say this almost every time: don't forget Mozart String Quartets. They show ranges, techniques, bowings. They show how to write for strings, period. Just the opening of this one would take years to understand/emulate. 

Where many composers fail, even big ones- they don't know "how" to write for strings. They know what they do, they know a lot of fancy book-lernin', they know techniques like ponticello and effects and all that good stuff... but they don't know "how" to write for strings. Mozart did. Sibelius did, he was a fiddle player. But every composer in any genre would be helped by taking a peek at the Mozart Quartets, for so many reasons.


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## JohnG (Apr 13, 2020)

Sears Poncho said:


> the Mozart Quartets



Thanks, @Sears Poncho

Don't think I've seen these since college days. If ever; went straight to Bartok who, by the way, wrote some of the most awesome string quartets and duets ever. As you are no doubt aware, but just in case someone else doesn't know them. Super fun.


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## Scamper (Apr 13, 2020)

There is already much useful advice, so I'll just add a few notes on how I practically approach writing and arranging for strings or any section for that matter.


Let's say it's *just strings* though.

First *melody and bass*: 
I choose a* range for the melody*, which can be c4 upwards (violins), around c4 (violas) or around c3 and upwards (celli) and *put the melody into place*. For the sake of simplicity, let's say it's a melody around c5 played by the violins.
The *bass is should also be clear* and played by the basses, which together with the melody creates the *outline for the voicin*g.

Next, *filling in the inner voices* to get rich harmony:
Again for *simplicity, let's say we're not using divisi* now. I generally prefer to use as few voices or as little divisi as possible, which can still be lush and I think it sounds clearer overall, too. So, we've got *3 voices for inner voicings* and harmony, celli, violas and second violins.
Later on, if that's not enough, you can still use divisi to further thicken up the voicings.

At this point, there are *many possibilities* to create chords voicings with* varying character*, so it depends what you want to go for. Also a general rule is to play *open voicings in the lower ranges* and *close voicings, if you go higher up* above c3 and c4.

There needs to be some *experimentation to find the character for the voicing*, that you want.
For example, in the low range, the celli could play an octave or a fifth above the bass . Above the celli, the violas could play the tonic or third above the celli and the second violins can fill out another tonic, third or fifth above the violas.
A typical voicing in 4 part harmony could be: Basses, celli a fifth above, violas a third above, violins above that on the tonic.

If you don't have a straight major chord for example, there might be some notes, that are important to get. For example, in a sus2 chord, you want to have this second note in there to define the chord. With more *complex chords, these chord defining notes are more important* and you should try to place them first, before you fill in additional voices.

Try to *shift around the voices between tonics, thirds, fifths or other notes of your chord* and see, how it sounds to find a voicing, that is lush or the way, that you want it to be.

Finally, tune the inner voices to *create their own musical lines*:
If you have multiple chords, you could first *create a voicing for each chord*. Then, you can try to find a *line for each voice*, that covers all its chord notes and hopefully *makes sense on its own* without too much jumping up and down.
You can use some *additional notes* to move from one chord to the other, but these *notes should be part of the chord and the context*, that you're moving in, so that you don't move outside your current harmony, which will sound off.
Sometimes, to create a good line for the inner voices, you might need to change chord voicings, that you have previously thought of, because there can be some beautiful transitions, that might be blocked by another note.

I find this part to be the hardest about this process, but I also think it adds a lot of liveliness and enriching movement, if you get it right.

Also:
If the melody is played in a lower range, maybe around c3-c4 by violas or celli, make sure that the harmony voices are played outside the melody range to keep the melody clear so that you don't muddy it up. If the melody is played very high (maybe c5-c6), make sure to fill the space between the melody and the bass relatively evenly with inner voices without big empty ranges. This way, the whole sound is more connected and even.



Now, this is a rather* simple way to approach it*, but I found it's a *good starting point* when writing for strings or other ensembles. From there, you can still *branch out* and experiment with all sorts of *different technique and more sophisticated methods* of using all the voices in an interesting way.

While composing, I probably spend most of my time to figure out the inner voices in a good way, so I'd like to encourage to do the same and if you find this little text helpful, I can also setup some examples to show, what I mean and how I do it with a bunch of different chords and lines.

(Sorry, if some parts don't make much sense. I'm quite tired...)


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## Sears Poncho (Apr 13, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Thanks, @Sears Poncho
> 
> Don't think I've seen these since college days. If ever; went straight to Bartok who, by the way, wrote some of the most awesome string quartets and duets ever. As you are no doubt aware, but just in case someone else doesn't know them. Super fun.


It's always such a fascinating subject. When we think of orchestration we always say "Rimsky-Korsakov, Ravel, Debussy" etc. But who did they study? Bach, Mozart and Beethoven. Maybe Berlioz and Lizst. Berlioz was nuts, he was waaay ahead of his time. Tchaikovsky was obsessed with Mozart, even though he could have heard Rite of Spring had he not committed suicide at 53. 

The Beethoven Symphonies- people don't think of him as an "orchestrator". But he basically invented it. The difference between the 2nd and 3rd symphonies, it sounds like a different guy. The 9th is, well, the 9th. It's ahead of its time, it's also kinda weird at times. Lots of textures in the finale that were brand spankin' new. 



JohnG said:


> If ever; went straight to Bartok who, by the way, wrote some of the most awesome string quartets


Bartok = My hero. My teacher was in the Guarneri String Quartet and they recorded them all. Big part of my college listening... along with Zappa.


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## HarmonyCore (Apr 13, 2020)

Scamper said:


> There is already much useful advice, so I'll just add a few notes on how I practically approach writing and arranging for strings or any section for that matter.
> 
> 
> Let's say it's *just strings* though.
> ...



Another fantastic picture of how to orchestrate for strings. You made as easy as possible and I digested what you said. It's like drawing the outer (edgy) frame of the song using a highest register (1st violins) and lowest register (basses). Then, in between, comes in the painting using cello, violas, and 2nd violins. This painting has many different ways to be colorful.

In my notebook, I am literally drawing a piano roll in the left and use double arrowed lines to define where each string section belongs to.

Fantastic !!! 

EDIT: Luckily, I am reading a Harmony book by Michael Hewitt. What you're saying right now is going in parallel with what I am reading to offer an extra glue for the information.


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## Sears Poncho (Apr 13, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> It's like drawing the outer (edgy) frame of the song using a highest register (1st violins) and lowest register (basses). Then, in between, comes in the painting using cello, violas, and 2nd violins. This painting has many different ways to be colorful.


It works.... except when you want the firsts to play in the low register and the celli in the high register. 

It kinda goes "case by case". Think of "Climb every Mountain". Just off the top of my head, I'd want the strings to be as low as possible at the beginning, then rise in pitch as the song goes on. Think of Elgar= that low, majestic "pomp and circumstance" sound. There are just way too many variables. One might want the seconds to play a high pedal while the firsts play pizz. 

The key is to find the "characteristics" of each section. Sometimes exploit them, sometimes the opposite. Just constantly remember that there are 5 independent sections. There can be 1 idea or 5 ideas.


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## HarmonyCore (Apr 13, 2020)

Sears Poncho said:


> It works.... except when you want the firsts to play in the low register and the celli in the high register.
> 
> It kinda goes "case by case". Think of "Climb every Mountain". Just off the top of my head, I'd want the strings to be as low as possible at the beginning, then rise in pitch as the song goes on. Think of Elgar= that low, majestic "pomp and circumstance" sound. There are just way too many variables. One might want the seconds to play a high pedal while the firsts play pizz.
> 
> The key is to find the "characteristics" of each section. Sometimes exploit them, sometimes the opposite. Just constantly remember that there are 5 independent sections. There can be 1 idea or 5 ideas.



I understand exactly what you're tying to deliver here on the table. Sky is the limit in orchestration in other words. Too many variables, rules are meant to be broken, no standard system for any of this (except music theory of course lol), ...etc. It's the system that you put that works for you in the given song depending on the song's mood. I write all of this down on my little tiny notebook.

You guys, ROCK !! I learn a lot here really, I mean it.


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## HarmonyCore (Apr 14, 2020)

Well, thank you everyone for the great insights, appreciate it.


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## Mornats (Apr 14, 2020)

I've found this thread massively informative too, thanks to everyone for their input. I'm currently (and finally) learning to read music and I'm looking forward to studying scores.


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## HarmonyCore (Apr 14, 2020)

Mornats said:


> I've found this thread massively informative too, thanks to everyone for their input. I'm currently (and finally) learning to read music and I'm looking forward to studying scores.



Good luck and wishes you the best. I hate reading music and I learn everything on my piano roll (it's a debate in another thread) with the help of an amazing book by Michael Hewitt about functional harmony. Wish I could learn the notation when I was a kid but there's no time for this now, I am 41 and need to spend the rest of me contacting the music directly by ear. Both my aural and relative pitch skills are getting better everyday.


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## Mornats (Apr 14, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> Good luck and wishes you the best. I hate reading music and I learn everything on my piano roll (it's a debate in another thread) with the help of an amazing book by Michael Hewitt about functional harmony. Wish I could learn the notation when I was a kid but there's no time for this now, I am 41 and need to spend the rest of me contacting the music directly by ear. Both my aural and relative pitch skills are getting better everyday.



I'm 45 but still want to give it a go. My first attempt went well, I was starting to recognise intervals after 20-30 mins? If you can grab a YouTube tutorial that follows a piece in C major then that's an easy way to give it a go. I understand that it may not be for you (and I think I read the other thread) but for anyone else, give it a whirl, it may be a bit easier than you think.


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## HarmonyCore (Apr 14, 2020)

Mornats said:


> I'm 45 but still want to give it a go. My first attempt went well, I was starting to recognise intervals after 20-30 mins? If you can grab a YouTube tutorial that follows a piece in C major then that's an easy way to give it a go. I understand that it may not be for you (and I think I read the other thread) but for anyone else, give it a whirl, it may be a bit easier than you think.



I gave it a go loaaaads of times but my brain seems to refuse it. I don't want to put you off but notation is way more than EGBDF-FACE and GBDFA-ACEG. And I am not talking about sightreading in real time as this is a different beast. I just wanted to learn it to read scores like you want to do.

Many will argue that orchestration cannot be achieved unless you read music. Unfortunately, reading music should be done in the early stages of childhood. Again, I don't want to put you off. Michael Hewitt beautifully explained harmony, motion types (similar, oblique, ...etc), and how to use it in orchestration in both the piano roll and notation. Combine that with the tremendous tips I got in this thread, I saw some positive results when I practiced them. Not miraculous results, but they are enough for me to create that lushness.

I am sure that you'll get those miraculous results with music reading but I am lazy so I accept the basic results. 

All the best.


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## Mornats (Apr 14, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> Michael Hewitt beautifully explained harmony, motion types (similar, oblique, ...etc), and how to use it in orchestration in both the piano roll and notation.



Which book is this? It may help if/when I run into difficulties with notation 

I have to admit that when I think I've understood something in music theory an expert usually comes along and tells me it's wrong, or it's right, expect for when it's not right. None of which is helpful and just puts me off


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## Christian64 (Apr 14, 2020)

I think Divisimate can be a useful tool for strings orchestration. Has anyone tested it?


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## HarmonyCore (Apr 14, 2020)

Mornats said:


> Which book is this? It may help if/when I run into difficulties with notation
> 
> I have to admit that when I think I've understood something in music theory an expert usually comes along and tells me it's wrong, or it's right, expect for when it's not right. None of which is helpful and just puts me off



It's called "Harmony: For Computer Musicians" by Hewitt, a book that is targeted solely to DAW musicians like myself. As the name implies, it's heavily focusing on the piano grid in every scenario and example but also he included notation for notation readers. 

Check it out:


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## HarmonyCore (Apr 14, 2020)

Christian64 said:


> I think Divisimate can be a useful tool for strings orchestration. Has anyone tested it?



Just checked it and it looks promising. Also, the website looks neat and professional that delivers the feeling of quality products. If this app is true in what it does without any robotic flaws or bugs, then it will be a huge cheat app for composers in the history of MIDI orchestration


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## HarmonyCore (Apr 14, 2020)

Mornats said:


> Which book is this? It may help if/when I run into difficulties with notation
> 
> I have to admit that when I think I've understood something in music theory an expert usually comes along and tells me it's wrong, or it's right, expect for when it's not right. None of which is helpful and just puts me off



Just don't allow anyone to put you off and don't focus too much on experts except for positive advice. You just study books or watch videos to enforce your understanding. Good experts are the ones who are helping starters. If a good expert tells you that you're wrong in an area of knowledge, then you're wrong and you have to improve that area. Actually, it's very important that an expert shows your mistakes because how could you learn anything if everyone is flattering you. Just don't give up and keep learning.

About my latest comment to you, I meant that notation isn't just for me. And when I said it's way beyond the lines, spaces, ledgers, rests,..etc., I meant that these are just the easy parts when you learn a notation. The most difficult part in the long run is to keep mapping those notes in those lines and spaces on the keyboard. Plus, I have a disability in my left eye (I have only one functional eye) so seeing the lines and spaces hurt my eye, especially the flats or sharps besides the time signature. Sometimes I see the flat or sharp on a space but it's actually on a line and vice versa. It keeps me focused in an annoying way so I totally gave up.

That's just me !! What didn't work for me will definitely work with anybody else.


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## Mornats (Apr 14, 2020)

Yeah, the good experts are the ones who can, for want of a better phrase, stoop down to my level and explain things at a more basic level even if later theory will contradict it.

The question I had was about using modes. If I'm playing over a c major chord and I want to play with a Lydian mode, would I play C Lydian or F Lydian? Understanding that would mean I knew how to use modes but I couldn't get a strait answer as too many people seemed to be flexing their knowledge rather than provide a helpful response. Argh! I appreciate they were trying to help and provide as full an answer as possible but it still stopped me dead in my tracks.

Reading music sure does sound like a pain for you. When I started learning music seriously some years ago I had the idea that I would only learn enough to make what made me happy to make. I should stick to that and not stress about it. It would be cool to be able to listen to Mozart and transcribe it by ear but the years it'll take me to learn that would take up all my music making time and I'd be miserable. So yeah, we should however we can and do what works for us. 

Thanks for the book recommendation. It seems hard to get hold of new but I'll keep an eye out for it.


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## bryla (Apr 14, 2020)

C lydian: C D E F# G A B

Try this and you'll quickly get the lydian vibe.

If you play the F lydian you will simply get a C major vibe.... not as vibey as vibes go.

So HarmonyCore has got this backwards wrong. If he were to play a D-dorian he would play D-dorian. But if he wanted C-dorian he wouldn't choose D-dorian because it's the second degree of C major. He would be wise to choose C-dorian: C D Eb F G A Bb

EDIT: HarmonyCore has since deleted his posts.


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## Mornats (Apr 14, 2020)

bryla said:


> C lydian: C D E F# G A B
> 
> Try this and you'll quickly get the lydian vibe.
> 
> ...



Would C Lydian still be the right thing to play over a C major chord if I wanted that Lydian feel? HarmonyCore's explanation is what I thought was correct when I first asked the question.


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## Living Fossil (Apr 14, 2020)

Mornats said:


> Would C Lydian still be the right thing to play over a C major chord if I wanted that Lydian feel? HarmonyCore's explanation is what I thought was correct when I first asked the question.



Mornat, i try to stay away from such threads, since i'm allergic against half-knowledge (no offense or assumption towards no one)

Short answer:

There are no fixed rules which scale would be allowed over which chord.

The C-Major triad is present in 3 Lydian modes:

1) C-Lydian: *C*-D-*E*-F#-*G*-A-B
2) F-Lydian: F-*G*-A-B-*C*-D-*E*
3) Bb-Lydian: Bb-*C*-D-*E*-F-*G*-A

Try out all 3 scales and see what you like.

p.s. of course, we are talking about the "modern" (jazz-) interpretation of the Lydian mode.
In the historic reality, the lydian mode was usually used in a bit a different way.
But that's a topic i will for sure not touch in a forum....


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## Mornats (Apr 14, 2020)

I guess the answer is that there isn't a short answer! However, your explanation about which modes contain the C major triad has helped me understand it a bit more, so thanks


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## bryla (Apr 14, 2020)

Mornats said:


> Would C Lydian still be the right thing to play over a C major chord if I wanted that Lydian feel? HarmonyCore's explanation is what I thought was correct when I first asked the question.


Yes. Playing f Lydian over C major simply gives you C Ionian.


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## Pantonal (Apr 14, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> I gave it a go loaaaads of times but my brain seems to refuse it. I don't want to put you off but notation is way more than EGBDF-FACE and GBDFA-ACEG. And I am not talking about sightreading in real time as this is a different beast. I just wanted to learn it to read scores like you want to do.
> 
> Many will argue that orchestration cannot be achieved unless you read music. Unfortunately, reading music should be done in the early stages of childhood. Again, I don't want to put you off. Michael Hewitt beautifully explained harmony, motion types (similar, oblique, ...etc), and how to use it in orchestration in both the piano roll and notation. Combine that with the tremendous tips I got in this thread, I saw some positive results when I practiced them. Not miraculous results, but they are enough for me to create that lushness.
> 
> ...


I also came to notation later in life (at least taking it seriously). The issue is this learning music theory, notation, ear training and orchestration are all part of the massive tool chest that is musical skills. Learning notation will make your life easier. You may never be a great sight reader at the piano, I know I never will be, but I've managed to get the grand staff in my head pretty well after working at it a little bit at a time and I can now sight sing fairly well. 

One thing that greatly assisted my ear training was drilling solfegge. Google "solfegge hand signals" because drilling solfegge with the hand signals seems to fix the functions of each degree of the scale into the mind more quickly. Use what's called moveable Do, that means Do is always the tonic (in a major key). Thus, do, re, mi is the first, second and third notes of the major scale. Ten minutes a day spent drilling solfegge (not just scales but skip around) and in a month you'll find your reading is much improved.

You've received some great advice regarding scoring for strings. It's now time to remember the old joke, "How do you get to Carnegie Hall?" Practice man, practice!


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## Living Fossil (Apr 14, 2020)

Mornats said:


> I guess the answer is that there isn't a short answer!



No, the short answer is that there are no such "rules". 
In music, you can do whatever you want as long as you can manage the consequences of your decisions.
It all depends on the context.
You can also play Gb-Lydian or Ab-Lydian or anything else above C-major if it fits your idea.

Or you could easily find Jazz records where G-Lydian (with c#) is played over C-Major, specially if it's leading to the 9th of C-major (which is the note d)

There are beautiful things as polytonality, bitonality, bi-modality etc.


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## bryla (Apr 14, 2020)

I’ll second solfege. Once you start for read the staves in a relative manner according to your key or tonal centre it becomes so much easier to read not only treble and bass clef but alto, tenor and transposing instruments.


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## Christian64 (Apr 18, 2020)

Here is a simple, beautiful and very pedagogical piece for the intuitive understanding of strings orchestration. Thank you Mr Morriconne


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## Mark Stothard (Apr 24, 2020)

youngpokie said:


> I find that a lot of online courses deal mostly with instrumentation (what/how instruments can play), rather than with how to actually write to orchestrate as opposed to how to write for this or that instrument. Often, they confuse more than explain. Also, I think the practical ways or orchestrating a melody vs chord are not always the same.
> 
> For example, a few ways to orchestrate the melody:
> 
> ...



The advice here is some of the best I have seen. I keep referring to this now However I still struggle making it work in my composition., If interested, I would willing to pay to see a video explaining all the above.


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## Dave Connor (Apr 26, 2020)

Mark Stothard said:


> The advice here is some of the best I have seen. I keep referring to this now However I still struggle making it work in my composition., If interested, I would willing to pay to see a video explaining all the above.


I would recommend the Kent Kennan Orchestration book. Since you see the same piece of music (Bach Chorale) orchestrated repeatedly in different ways for the main instrumental sections of the orchestra: Winds, Brass, Strings - you gain an insight into a thought process that applies broadly to the orchestra. Not just strings.

Then, even if you study different string textures (which it gives examples of or even if you’re score studying) the composer’s reasoning is far more likely to be apparent to you. That’s what you want: to understand the composers technical choices he/ she made to achieve an artistic end. Learning the basics on the technical side helps you eventually understand the more illusive artistic choices.


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## Mark Stothard (Apr 27, 2020)

Many thanks for the recommendation Dave. I will check it out.


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