# Is handwriting recognition a workflow game changer?



## daychase (Jun 29, 2022)

I'm not sure if this belongs in this subforum or the StaffPad one, but I'll give it a shot here:

I've been using Logic Pro X and MuseScore 3.6 to write music, which means that if I want to write using notation, I have to pick between being able to use actual non-soundfont virtual instruments (Logic) and being able to actually have the articulations, dynamics and other such things I write be reflected in my music (MuseScore). In looking into an alternative that would let me do both, one of the options I've been considering is Presonus Notion 6.

I don't use iPads and likely won't be able to afford one anytime soon, so StaffPad isn't an option for me, but the idea of being able to just draw my notation in is interesting to me. I searched to see if there was anything that would let me do that on a computer using my Wacom tablet, and it looks like the answer is Notion, and only Notion.

But Notion is relatively underrepresented here, and I know it's had its last major update quite a while ago, with people wondering if it's on its way out. If I wanted a modern notation option with seemingly a more promising future, this forum seems to think that would be Dorico - and even MuseScore plans to introduce VST support with version 4 eventually. Would being able to write music using handwriting recognition be enough of a game-changer to bet on what seems to decidedly be the underdog?


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## Getsumen (Jun 29, 2022)

daychase said:


> I'm not sure if this belongs in this subforum or the StaffPad one, but I'll give it a shot here:
> 
> I've been using Logic Pro X and MuseScore 3.6 to write music, which means that if I want to write using notation, I have to pick between being able to use actual non-soundfont virtual instruments (Logic) and being able to actually have the articulations, dynamics and other such things I write be reflected in my music (MuseScore). In looking into an alternative that would let me do both, one of the options I've been considering is Presonus Notion 6.
> 
> ...


I thought Staffpad supported Windows with a tablet? I don't think it's an iPad only thing.
Edit: After a 3s bit of thinking my brain has realized that you said "Logic" implying apple... so yeah void that point above ^_^

MuseScore might actually add handwriting later. After all they purchased staffpad so that techs gotta go somewhere (Conjecture)


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## sathyva (Jun 30, 2022)

I think that Dorico (Steinberg) should have bought Staffpad. That would have been really great !
Just dreaming 
Actually Staffpad is really great but an ipad is needed :(


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## Maximvs (Jun 30, 2022)

sathyva said:


> I think that Dorico (Steinberg) should have bought Staffpad. That would have been really great !
> Just dreaming
> Actually Staffpad is really great but an ipad is needed :(


You can use Staffpad with Microsoft Surface hardware too...


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## youngpokie (Jun 30, 2022)

daychase said:


> the idea of being able to just draw my notation in is interesting to me.





daychase said:


> Would being able to write music using handwriting recognition be enough of a game-changer to bet on what seems to decidedly be the underdog?



I think handwriting recognition is one of these sentimental images we conjure up in our heads that signify to us some kind of "realness" about the process (and ourselves, ultimately). That was my thinking for a long while, until I asked myself - why is it that I never think of handwriting recognition in Microsoft Word as a game changer for my next novel?

The reality is that if you use notation software a lot (say on par with Microsoft Word use by a writer), you quickly realize that handwriting is time-consuming and highly inefficient process. It becomes obvious that workflow efficiency is the real game changer and should be one of the goals and standards (along with playback capabilities).

Writing for an orchestra, especially the triple winds size, involves a ton of doublings. With handwriting, you need to write the same line over and over again - or copy-paste it. This can mean very short phrases going over just two bars - constantly. With a modern notation program, you input notes from either your MIDI or PC keyboard on several staves simultaneously. This adds up to a ton of time saved and mistakes avoided.

Then there is the question of editing - should this line I've just written be an octave (a 6th, a 3rd, etc) higher or lower? Once again, the ability to edit quickly and efficiently is more important for workflow than handwriting, in my opinion.

And of course, handwriting is something we already know while computer-based note entry has a bit of a learning curve and therefore feels like an impediment. But investing a small amount of time to learn and master it will pay for itself several times over very quickly. I copied music I liked from IMSLP into Dorico for practice (and had the manual opened on the other monitor. This combo was the secret sauce for me).

My workflow today involves note entry from the MIDI keyboard and, less often, actual MIDI recording. I don't use the PC keyboard for note entry anymore, only for shortcuts. And in all honesty, I don't miss handwriting at all - it seems my way of note entry is actually faster than handwriting.


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## Bollen (Jun 30, 2022)

If you have a Surface-like device is great, because you can draft in your tablet-PC and then open Staffpad in your main PC, export XML or simply have it open in another monitor as a reference!

Of course, you can't go wrong with Dorico, but it has no writing recognition support, but you can still use your pen for input the old-fashioned-way.


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## PaulieDC (Jun 30, 2022)

youngpokie said:


> I think handwriting recognition is one of these sentimental images we conjure up in our heads that signify to us some kind of "realness" about the process (and ourselves, ultimately). That was my thinking for a long while, until I asked myself - why is it that I never think of handwriting recognition in Microsoft Word as a game changer for my next novel?
> 
> The reality is that if you use notation software a lot (say on par with Microsoft Word use by a writer), you quickly realize that handwriting is time-consuming and highly inefficient process. It becomes obvious that workflow efficiency is the real game changer and should be one of the goals and standards (along with playback capabilities).
> 
> ...


I have to second the motion. As I got ready for a Berklee Orchestration class, I was set on sketching out ideas on my new spiffy expensive M1 iPad with my new StaffPad app. Then I could output MusicXML, into Cubase and work from there.

That idea quickly fell apart. You have to have a dedicated learning effort to get StaffPad to respond to what you are scratching out with the Pencil. if you need to alter, it's not obvious in the UI, etc etc. I think it could be great but it's NOT a Time-Saver by any stretch. It's a niche insanely cool product where you can sit on the couch or at the piano and write out notation that does form itself nicely. Week 1 of the class I kind of panicked, handwriting into an app was seriously slowing me to a crawl (note, I'm not a notation guy normally, I prefer hear it and play it). Now what??

As a Cubase user, I did already own Dorico, but never really opened it because Notion years earlier also seemed tedious. But I bought and watched a two hour video course that first night of class, and when I saw how fast you can enter in music once you get the basic key commands down, WOW. I got to the point where I was simply watching the keyboard as I typed in and when I looked up, it was mostly perfect in the staff on the screen. This was the first week! And this is amazing for me who never wanted to touch notation: I was looking forward to entering in the assignment work in Dorico, even when notation wasn't required that week, then send it over to Cubase to finish. Dorico is that good, at least to me.

I still have the desire to watch the StaffPad 3 hour video of the inventor writing in a piece in real time and learning all of the ways to tweak, because I believe it would be fun to pull out the iPad while waiting somewhere or on a plane, or anything like that, and start noodling. But my vote says to learn your desktop app key commands and you'll run farther and faster, just not as cool, lol. I'm only referencing StaffPad because it's arguably the best in class for tablet and stylus. Notion had handwriting years before but I never spent enough time with it. As far as Desktop Notion, I was a Studio One and Notion owner/user since 2014, then in 2018 I built an i9 tower and discovered Notion will not run on it,and Studio One v4 did not play well with multicores. I waited for a year with no effort to fix this, then ultimately switched to Cubase and Dorico, and I'm 100% happy, especially with Dorico v4. So because of that, I'm highly biased, lol! 

Note: Studio One v5.2 and later is leaps and bounds better, but too late for my world. And notion seems like an abandoned ship at this point, IMO. Even the reviews on the Presonus page are between 5 and 8 years old.


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## daychase (Jun 30, 2022)

Thank you both for your very insightful responses! I'll definitely sleep on it a bit; eventually I'll want a proper notation option that will let me use articulations _and_ VSTs in the same program, but that doesn't seem to be today. Oh well - I'll live for now!



PaulieDC said:


> Note: Studio One v5.2 and later is leaps and bounds better, but too late for my world. And notion seems like an abandoned ship at this point, IMO. Even the reviews on the Presonus page are between 5 and 8 years old.


That's the other option I was considering, just switching over to Studio One 5 Professional and making use of its score editor alongside the piano roll and other DAW functionalities! Do you think that would be a better idea for me if I'm not sure I'll want a dedicated notation program if not for the handwriting aspect that Notion has?


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## PaulieDC (Jun 30, 2022)

daychase said:


> That's the other option I was considering, just switching over to Studio One 5 Professional and making use of its score editor alongside the piano roll and other DAW functionalities! Do you think that would be a better idea for me if I'm not sure I'll want a dedicated notation program if not for the handwriting aspect that Notion has?


That's hard to answer... I don't know how well Studio One's score editor works, maybe you can find reviews on that. Once I learned Dorico, I then tried Cubase's built-in score editor and after a minute or two I closed it, lol. It was pretty awkward, nothing like the real thing.

Dorico SE is free and give you two "Players" which you technically could stack multiple instruments in. But even so, it may be worth the free trial. There's a couple YouTube vids to get you going. So many people I talk to have switched over because of the ease of use, compared to other title. Just a thought!


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## pinki (Jul 3, 2022)

Yes I agree with what people are saying here: handwriting is slow. For me once the novelty wore off, I never used it again. Somehow the idea was so much more exciting than the reality. 

I tried also the Notion/Studio One 5.4 combination and whilst I love Notion, the "send to Studio One" command in Notion is pretty pointless as none of the Notion instruments are available in S1 so you have to reinstantiate. Might as well use Musicxml tbh. 

I just use Logic nowadays, which is an all in one solution.


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## jonnybutter (Jul 3, 2022)

I think it is a game changer for some people, but it wasn’t for me. Logic and Dorico are a better fit for the way I work. That said, Staffpad is a pretty slick piece of software - the handwriting recognition is the best I’ve tried, including Notion; and a lot of the editing features on it are great, and v intuitive. It’s not necessarily SO slow if you can get close to 100% consistent handwriting recognition - that is, if you write with a pencil kind of like a robot. I tried and it just didn’t work for me. But as I say lots of ppl love it and even use it instead of a DAW. I still sketch basic ideas on paper, and you can more/less do that on staff pad too, in sketch mode. But that isn’t really what SP is for. Best advice is to try it somehow. You’ll know after a month or two, probably.


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## barrychab (Jul 4, 2022)

It is for me. I use Staffpad on a Surface Pro and if it's melodic music i'm working on, there's nothing better (for me). I also use Live if im working on soundscapes or improvised pieces (also on the surface). So depending on what i'm after, Staffpad is it. I also cross Live/Staffpad boundries by importing notated works into Live or importing Live audio works into Staffpad in the newish audio staffs.


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## Rob (Jul 4, 2022)

to me, to be really a workflow changer, there is one requirement: that the software is able to read my handwriting as I write at full speed. And with my handwriting style, not that I have to learn how to draw symbols in order for the program to understand them... my writing is fine, and very readable, but apparently not for the software... I have tried, for a brief period of time, but no. Not working as desired.


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## jonnybutter (Jul 4, 2022)

Rob said:


> to me, to be really a workflow changer, there is one requirement: that the software is able to read my handwriting as I write at full speed. And with my handwriting style, not that I have to learn how to draw symbols in order for the program to understand them... my writing is fine, and very readable, but apparently not for the software... I have tried, for a brief period of time, but no. Not working as desired.


Exactly my problem. I tried for almost a year and I just couldn’t get into it. I’d have a nice run of things recognized but then get stuck. I think my problem is that I’ve been writing notes by hand for 50+ years and just can’t change enough to adapt. I wish it was viable, because I love the idea. And it may work for other old timers - just not me.


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## Rob (Jul 4, 2022)

the program should learn our handwriting... maybe train itself a few minutes every day. "please write a 1/8 triplet" you do it and "ok so that's how you write triplets, how about inserting a rest or two, how do you do it?" "nice, I understand" and so on and on until it recognizes the way we write... AI, no?


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## jonnybutter (Jul 4, 2022)

Rob said:


> the program should learn our handwriting... maybe train itself a few minutes every day. "please write a 1/8 triplet" you do it and "ok so that's how you write triplets, how about inserting a rest or two, how do you do it?" "nice, I understand" and so on and on until it recognizes the way we write... AI, no?


That would be ideal. I initially assumed that’s how it *did*work! 😂 How naive. Alas, no. Sporadically it would ask you to send feedback, and I would always click ok.

Maybe it would work if both you and the app could triangulate, to home in on a compromise - IOW, use human and artificial intelligence to approach something more workable than one size fits all. Maybe they are working on something like that already. I bet it’s been considered. My guess is that it’s not so easy to do. AI is really oversold.

I think you are on to something though. It might not be seamless or perfect, but if the app could use feedback to modify how it worked, it could be v cool. Would be useful to more people. Cheers


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## ZenBYD (Jul 4, 2022)

well it's both a killer feature and an Achilles heel...

the handwriting in staffpad works great for me, so it was a game changer in every sense of the word. before I bought it, I saw quite a few guys use it in the studio who are scary fast with it... like... scary fast...

I think it depends on how your brain works. if your transcribing or you already know what your about to write, or your cleaning up midi etc... then its probably faster to use word-processor style input. but, if you are actually composing... writing into the staff.... then things that are the work of a moment in staffpad can take a very long time and be very frustrating in sibelius (and others) because its a very rigid environment. 

I don't know... but I actually doubt very many authors actually write a novel from start to finish in a word processor. handwriting and post it notes and brainstorms and flowcharts and all that stuff is probably still how the novel is actually conceived.

handwriting or not, staffpad is brilliant... so much attention to detail and clever workflows... scores open so fast. its always responsive. scores look great. playback is amazing. its super easy to use. the reader... the audio... its all so impressive.

yet, if it doesn't work for you... it doesn't work. definitely if your already comfortable with midi input or step input, then do that... as cool as it is, it's just another tool in the toolbox at the end of the day.


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## cmillar (Jul 6, 2022)

After giving StaffPad a fair chance, I'd consider it to be a major hindrance to creative flow and inspiration. 

Using it always felt like 'one step forwards, two steps back'. A real time waster.

The handwriting recognition in it (and Notion) is truly just not good enough to capture musical notation at this point in time for the vast majority of composers.

Good effort though, but is definitely second-rate compared to what kind of speed is possible once your used to using a MIDI keyboard for note entry in any of the major notation software packages.


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## Bollen (Jul 6, 2022)

cmillar said:


> After giving StaffPad a fair chance, I'd consider it to be a major hindrance to creative flow and inspiration.
> 
> Using it always felt like 'one step forwards, two steps back'. A real time waster.
> 
> ...


I second that! I had to learn to write very differently with Staffpad, and eventually it became almost as fast as my real handwriting, which I've been using for nearly 30 years! But Dorico with a MIDI keyboard and a streamdeck is still considerably faster for everything, especially complex polyrhythms, editing, inserting, deleting, etc.


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## cmillar (Jul 7, 2022)

Bollen said:


> I second that! I had to learn to write very differently with Staffpad, and eventually it became almost as fast as my real handwriting, which I've been using for nearly 30 years! But Dorico with a MIDI keyboard and a streamdeck is still considerably faster for everything, especially complex polyrhythms, editing, inserting, deleting, etc.


Same here....but I'm a StreamDeck user with Sibelius. 

StreamDeck has been a gamechanger. Hard to live without it now!


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