# Any problems with Logic's articulation system?



## guipil (Jan 5, 2019)

I have noticed that there are many third party options for articulation management for Logic. Is there any problem with the default one? A lot of it's bugs have been fixed, it seems to be able to switch for many types of instruments and scenarios, and it even channelizes CC info. Any issues with it?


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 5, 2019)

There are threads about it on this forum, search around and read a bit, it would be tiring to re write it all here now. The existing articulation set feature has both some bugs as well as some interesting behavior that doesn't always make sense, and some limitations. It can work fine for a lot of cases, I suggest you try to make it work, if you run into a road block then you can turn to one of the third party solutions where they have generally improved upon things. Those third party solutions were much more necessary before the recent additions to LPX articulation set features, you can now do some things without any third party, but in some cases, it still falls short. Myself I am only using it mainly to name my articulations, I am not using LPX's capability to send the actual key switches, I'm just scripting it myself...and that's what two of the third party solutions can do for you too. Then you avoid some of the peculiarities of Logic's articulation set feature. Eventually we can hope Apple will clean it up and expand it so that won't be necessary, but that's how it is now.

Why don't you tell us what you want to accomplish, what libraries are you working with and how are you hoping to set things up in Logic.


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## guipil (Jan 5, 2019)

I have been looking around, but a lot of the things I have seen people complain about seem to have been fixed or changed in recent Logic updates. I am mainly using Spitfire, OT and Cinematic studio and I am wondering if there's any major problems with Logic's system


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 5, 2019)

The current version still has some odd behavior if not downright bugs. They fixed a couple things, left a couple things unfixed and bungled up a few things they thought they were fixing. Not all problems effect everyone. Give it a shot and see where you get. Most likely you are going to run into a roadblock but if your use case is simple enough, maybe not.

My feeling is that for extremely simple situations it will work fine. if you get into more advanced situations then it falls short. The stuff you are using is heavily and directly supported by ArtzID and I recommend you just get that and be done with it. Peter heavily thought through the issues with those specific instruments and made sure to provide solutions.

Apple still has some developing to do to make its articulation set feature truly useful entirely on its own.


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## guipil (Jan 5, 2019)

Thank you Dewdman! Any bugs in particular that I should be aware of???


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 5, 2019)

sorry I don't have a list written down summarizing the current state and I can't remember them now. I am generally just avoiding the output section of the articulation set feature so I can't remember now sorry. There were some discussions a few months back when the feature first came out and then later with 10.4.2 Logic update.

If you search around this forum with search terms like articulation and 10.4 and 10.4.2, etc.. you will find many posts and discussions about some of them.


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## stonzthro (Jan 7, 2019)

I haven’t run into any issues since the last update, but I’ve yet to create sets for more complex instruments; just standard switching here.


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## guipil (Jan 7, 2019)

Thanks! That's what I wanted to hear. Art Conductor seems a safe bet then!


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## babylonwaves (Jan 8, 2019)

there's a lot of bla bla about articulation sets. apple has fixed a lot in the past and things work really well when you use 10.4.3


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 8, 2019)

There are still some problems to be aware of. For example, the other night I wanted to send multiple key switches to a different channel. Guess what, Articulation Set output only channelizes the first keyswitch, and does not channelize switch2 and 3.

Also when channelizing notes via articulation set, CC, PB and AT messages are not propegated across to the new channel where the notes are going.

etc..


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## Saxer (Jan 8, 2019)

10.4.3 works fine here. CSS/CSB via controller, VSL simple key switches (I made custom patches that work with single key switches) and Afflatus via midi channel switching (key switch changes channel). CC data doesn't switch articulations any more (main problem in 10.4.2). Using Babylonwaves key switches as a starter saves a lot of time. No other 3rd party stuff any more. I used ARTs ID and AudioGrocery before but now it's much simpler.


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## guipil (Jan 8, 2019)

Wait, so there are issues with having CC data channelized? I've made some tests and I have not found any issues with CC data going to the same channel as notes according to the articulation set.


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 8, 2019)

In the past there were problems mainly because the articulationset had a design flaw before, which I haven’t tested yet but it had a flaw where if you had any events without a articulation Id assigned, the output section would send keyswitches for the first artid on the list anyway. So typically people would record their parts including notes and cc and then they would go back and assign specific notes to some articulation ids. This resulted that during playback the notes would send their desired keyswitch but in between all the notes the cc messages WITHOUT articulation Id assigned would unknowingly send the switches corresponding to the first artid on the list. This resulted in kontakt’s gui flashing all over the place while it needlessly switched back and forth between the intended keyswitches for the notes and the uneeded switches being sent vicariously for the cc’s

I believe they fixed that issue so that an event without artid will not send automatically the switches of the first artid in the list. But I didn’t test that

However much discussion about that issue may have led many people to think the problem was that cc’s have any articulationid or switch EVER sent, even if desired. And I think I read in the 10.4.3 report that they may have blocked entirely sending key switches for cc’s, even when they have explicitly assigned articulation id’s. I would view that as an error on apple’s fault but I haven’t tested it.

There were also some issues about how the input keyswitches are received and converted into notes with articulation Id encoded in the region during record, and they may have changed it in some way so that while recording cc’s they do not receive the articulation id inputted while notes do. But I did not test that either.

There was also some bug brought up where if notes are selected in a region while you record, the assignment of articulation id gets confused and doesn’t respect the input keyswitches. Not fixed yet.

Generally if you are doing channelizing the notes by artid, then you need cc’s also channelized to the same place and that does not appear to happen now, maybe it does if the cc’s all have articulation id assigned to match the notes around them, which is tricky and a hassle to ensure. And it’s not clear to me that even that works now I would need to test it. And by the way, if that does work then what happens when you have a chord with different articulations per note? You’d need the cc’s channeliZed to both dest channels, which the above would not do. So still not satisfactory Apple.

And at this time of you have more then one keyswitch for an artid, combined with channelizing in the same id; only the first keyswitch will be channelized, the 2nd and 3rd are not. Bug.

There may be other things I’m not remebering now. I submitted half a dozen bug reports to Apple when the feature first came out, they fixed some, ignored some and possibly misunderstood and corrected wrongly some of them. That’s how I see it. 3rd party tools are still required in many cases, but simple cases may be ok without it


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## ptram (Jan 9, 2019)

Some of the old alternative articulation systems have been converted to articulation set collections, based on the new factory articulation system. They don't replace the articulation system, but use it.

Paolo


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 9, 2019)

They use the input section and ability to name articulations but for the output keyswitches they override entirely the articulation set behavior using scripts.


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## A.G (Jan 9, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> They use the input section and ability to name articulations but for the output keyswitches they override entirely the articulation set behavior using scripts.


Thanks Dewdman42. You posted a lot of info here which is correct but a little bit too complex .

I'll advocate for all 3rd party Logic articulation switching developers (not for Art Sets makers) who did a lot and continue to do their best to offer rock solid alternatives and support for many 3rd party VIs.
Those developers had been in contact with many testers, VI Instrument companies etc, so their products are based on thousands of builds which can control a specific 3rd party VI perfectly.
What I see here is a low level (Logic build system) Articulation control satisfaction which is valid for a few simple Instrument libraries.

I have several questions and testing replies:
1. Does Logic 10.4.3 channelize a single channel CC stream during the Articulation switching if the Articulations are set to different MIDI channels (LASS, EW Play etc, Spitfire/OT single patches)? Nope.

2. Does Logic 10.4.3 multiplie/clone CC during the Articulation switching? Nope.

3. How many hours do you need to create a large Articulation Set in Logic? In some 3rd party Editors it takes a few minutes.

4. Can you control efficiently the "On the fly" VI instruments such as Sample Modeling using the Logic factory Art Sets system? Nope. In Cubase there are two Art triggering types defined as:
*Directional*=Logic "region" automation Art text points; (perfect for "On the Fly" Instr).
*Attribute*=Logic Note IDs;

5. Can you control the KS latching via the Logic factory system? Nope - it is fixed to "aways". This is not good for some VI Instruments.

6. Does Logic Art factory system support multi triggering Keyboards (Piano hammering emulation)? Nope - the second, third etc unison Note events are recorded as Note ID "-" (No ID).

7. Does the Logic factory Art system export the Articulation names in the computer clipboard so you can paste the names (plus KS, Colors or Map# prefixes) into the track Notepad and use that "Track" info pane like the Cubase Arts Inspector? Nope.

8. Can you teleport the Logic Art Set names to iPad (Names, Colors, Group labels etc) and have an iPad presets sync during the track selection? Nope.

I confirm that all mentioned above is possible in AG system, and most of that in the other 3rd party Logic Art switching systems. All 3rd party devs are welcome here!
Conclusion: You can drive a regular car or buy a luxury one .


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## Vik (Jan 9, 2019)

The reason I haven't really gotten started using Logic's articulation solution is that I need extra products, and need to decide which company to get them from, and also which products from these companies that I need. And in order to do that, I need to figure out what channelizing, latching, cloning, multi-triggering, combinatrix and singularity is about. I also need to find out what the differences between SkiSwitcher vs ArtzID vs AGs pro and blue systems are about, what articulation memory tracking is, if I need extra scripts and more.

Articulation control requires, of course, complex coding since libraries/VIs do things in so many ways, but ion there's one area in Logic where I would have preferred to not needing 3rd part products (and updating these when Logic's own articulation solution changes) - it's this area.

I hoped an expression map solution in Logic would either automatically load the articulation sets I needed when I used VIs, or that I could load them manually and that the rest would take care of itself. So - as someone why has wasted hundreds of hours on sorting out how things should be done technically while working with DAWs (primarily Logic) - and as a side effect of that lost inspiration and potential ideas, my decisions is for now to avoid diving into all this 'too-much-ness'.


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## jonathanwright (Jan 10, 2019)

I'm happy with the inbuilt Logic X system now, no complaints.

My usage is pretty standard though, regular keyswitching or UACC with Spitfire. I purchased the Babylon Waves sets, which saved a huge amount of time and hassle.

I've saved each instrument and articulation set as a patch in the library, so they're easy to call up when I need them.


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## Alex Fraser (Jan 10, 2019)

Vik said:


> The reason I haven't really gotten started using Logic's articulation solution is that I need extra products, and need to decide which company to get them from, and also which products from these companies that I need. And in order to do that, I need to figure out what channelizing, latching, cloning, multi-triggering, combinatrix and singularity is about. I also need to find out what the differences between SkiSwitcher vs ArtzID vs AGs pro and blue systems are about, what articulation memory tracking is, if I need extra scripts and more.
> 
> Articulation control requires, of course, complex coding since libraries/VIs do things in so many ways, but ion there's one area in Logic where I would have preferred to not needing 3rd part products (and updating these when Logic's own articulation solution changes) - it's this area.
> 
> I hoped an expression map solution in Logic would either automatically load the articulation sets I needed when I used VIs, or that I could load them manually and that the rest would take care of itself. So - as someone why has wasted hundreds of hours on sorting out how things should be done technically while working with DAWs (primarily Logic) - and as a side effect of that lost inspiration and potential ideas, my decisions is for now to avoid diving into all this 'too-much-ness'.


It might be worth waiting until the end of the month before making a choice.

For the past couple of years, Logic has recieved a big update at the end of January to coincide with winter NAMM. Perhaps articulation improvements are incoming.


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## babylonwaves (Jan 10, 2019)

A.G said:


> What I see here is a low level (Logic build system) Articulation control satisfaction which is valid for a few simple Instrument libraries.


90% of the market is what you call "simple libraries". so, when somebody is a little simple minded (like me ), looking for a simple solution to simplify his setup, he's probably just fine with using what's available in logic. for the rest, I recommend ArtzID. it's relatively simple and just works.


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## marclawsonmusic (Jan 10, 2019)

I am new to articulation switching in Logic, but in 10.4.3 it is working fine for me.

However, my use case is fairly simple - one MIDI channel per (switched) instrument. As such, I haven't run into the problem with CC data not switching to different MIDI channels (heard about that on this forum). I was able to get multiple output messages to work when I sent a keyswitch prior to a CC message, but not the other way around - that's the only 'bug' I remember. 

Articulation sets do not appear to be perfect or cover all possible scenarios, but like Dewdman42 said, if your use case is simple you can probably make it work. For Spitfire and Cinematic Studio, I think you're covered, but not sure about the OT libraries.


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## babylonwaves (Jan 10, 2019)

a logic update was just released and it contains a couple of fixes which might be of interest:

Controller information and note data for Articulations are now sent each time playback is started.
Articulation Key Switches again work reliably when notes are selected in an editor.
Controllers used as articulation switches no longer sometimes unexpectedly reset to 0.


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## babylonwaves (Jan 10, 2019)

marclawsonmusic said:


> I think you're covered, but not sure about the OT libraries


why?


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 10, 2019)

babylonwaves said:


> a logic update was just released and it contains a couple of fixes which might be of interest:
> 
> Controller information and note data for Articulations are now sent each time playback is started.
> Articulation Key Switches again work reliably when notes are selected in an editor.
> Controllers used as articulation switches no longer sometimes unexpectedly reset to 0.



Where did you get this list of "fixes" from?


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 10, 2019)

Just ran a few quick tests, serious problems still persist, here are a few problems that still persist in 10.4.4.


If you have notes indicated as "-" for articulation id, meaning, no articulation assigned, then LPX is assuming you want the first articulation in the articulation set and sending the output keyswitches and/or channelizing for that articulation. WRONG!
If you attempt to assign articulation id's to CC's in the event viewer, the list does not show you which articulation is assigned, it shows a "-", unless you click on it, then it seems to show. Observing the output behavior, LPX seems to sometimes channelize CC's that way based on that hidden artid, but sometimes wasn't right, and key switches are not ever being sent that way. So basically its half baked, not sure if they want to support "articulating" CC's or not, but this way is half way in the middle, makes no sense. WRONG.
If you try to channelize Note events based on articulation id, then only way to do so is to have at least one keyswitch. There is no way to JUST channelize. If you set the Selector to "-", then C-2 is sent out anyway. WRONG.
If you are using channelizing to send out Notes, then CC's, PitchBend and Aftertouch messages from the source track also need to follow the notes to their respective channelized channels, and they do not. WRONG.
When using multiple outputs for an articulation and combined with channelizing, only the first switch will be channelized, switches 2 and 3 still go to the source channel. WRONG.
Those are blatant bugs just in a few minutes of testing, I do not have time to test further situations, including the input section. Maybe someone else can comment about what is happening while using input key switches in terms of encoding events with articulation id, including CC's and other events, etc.

On top of that its limited to only 3 switches per articulation, has no output latching modes, etc..

Sorry Apple, 3rd party support still needed, even for common libraries like EastWest, VSL, Kirk Hunter and others...


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 10, 2019)

Note that other than point #1 above, which is still a bad bug I can't believe they haven't fixed yet, the other problems are all related to channelizing. So if you're not channelizing, and can live with 3 key switches or less, and no other issues related to latching key switches in your instrument, etc.. it should work ok for you. 

A work around for Bug#1 is to declare the first articulation on the list as articulation 256 and don't assign any output to it. That way "-" events will not get keyswitched unwittingly...

I think in most cases, people should only want notes articulated, and CC's, PB's and AT's should just pass through...unelss channelizing, in which case they need to follow the notes. I am not sure whether the input section is encoding CC's with articulation still, it used to, don't have time to test it today. But it probably should NOT do so.


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## marclawsonmusic (Jan 10, 2019)

babylonwaves said:


> why?


Because I don't own any so I can't comment on those.


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## Alex Fraser (Jan 10, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> Just ran a few quick tests, serious problems still persist, here are a few problems that still persist in 10.4.4.
> 
> 
> If you have notes indicated as "-" for articulation id, meaning, no articulation assigned, then LPX is assuming you want the first articulation in the articulation set and sending the output keyswitches and/or channelizing for that articulation. WRONG!
> ...



Whilst I respect your knowledge on the subject, a lot of this sounds less like bugs and more like your opinion on how it _should_ work. There's a difference.


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 10, 2019)

that particular bug has plagued a lot of people with confusion and caused false CC keyswitch flashing and flickering all over the place and other hard to track down confusing behavior.

Furthermore, I submit to you that if a note without an articulation id is sending keywitchhes, that IS a bug. Call it what you want

hey listen I would love as much as anybody for LPX articulation handling to be able to function fully without any need for 3rd party solutions. Unfortunately, these problems make 3rd party solutions mandatory for many people, EastWest users in particular since they rely on the severely broken channelizing features. But they aren't the only ones.


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## yellow hat (Jan 15, 2019)

When I save a channel strip patch in Logic with a instrument articulation set loaded it does not get saved!
Only when I save it as a patch
Anybody else has this problem?


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## Vik (Jan 15, 2019)

That’s unfortunately how Logic works. Try sending them some feedback maybe?


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 15, 2019)

articulation set is not part of a channel strip, its part of the "track" inspector and is more associated with where midi regions are actually stored...on tracks. Channel strip presets generally have no impact on tracks but only on the channel strips themselves, including plugins used, etc. But for example you could have multiple tracks....all with different midi regions and different articulation sets for each track....all feeding into a single channel strip with a multi-instrument hosted there. So the track is the right place for articulation sets to be assigned really... Unfortunately channel strip presets don't effect that.


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## yellow hat (Jan 15, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> articulation set is not part of a channel strip, its part of the "track" inspector and is more associated with where midi regions are actually stored...on tracks. Channel strip presets generally have no impact on tracks but only on the channel strips themselves, including plugins used, etc. But for example you could have multiple tracks....all with different midi regions and different articulation sets for each track....all feeding into a single channel strip with a multi-instrument hosted there. So the track is the right place for articulation sets to be assigned really... Unfortunately channel strip presets don't effect that.


Yeah,it works when I save as a patch but not as a channel strip.
Just weird since the other settings are saved in channel strip settings.
Will send Apple a feature request!


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 15, 2019)

That's because patches do apply towards tracks. Channel strip presets do not they apply to channel strips.


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## yellow hat (Jan 15, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> That's because patches do apply towards tracks. Channel strip presets do not they apply to channel strips.


Got it!
Thanks!


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## Begfred (Jan 15, 2019)

yellow hat said:


> Yeah,it works when I save as a patch but not as a channel strip.
> Just weird since the other settings are saved in channel strip settings.
> Will send Apple a feature request!


And if you recall a patch on a track that's inside a track stack, the articulation set doesn't load.


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## stonzthro (Jan 15, 2019)

Begfred said:


> And if you recall a patch on a track that's inside a track stack, the articulation set doesn't load.


This is really lame - almost as lame as not being able to save track notes in instrument patches - which I’m sure could be coded in about an hour...

That said, I’m glad we have it working now - for the most part!


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## GdT (Jan 16, 2019)

I use AG. It's great because I can set it up the way I want not how the other developers constrain the user to use their method.


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## Heinigoldstein (Jan 16, 2019)

marclawsonmusic said:


> I am new to articulation switching in Logic, but in 10.4.3 it is working fine for me.
> 
> However, my use case is fairly simple - one MIDI channel per (switched) instrument. As such, I haven't run into the problem with CC data not switching to different MIDI channels (heard about that on this forum). I was able to get multiple output messages to work when I sent a keyswitch prior to a CC message, but not the other way around - that's the only 'bug' I remember.
> 
> Articulation sets do not appear to be perfect or cover all possible scenarios, but like Dewdman42 said, if your use case is simple you can probably make it work. For Spitfire and Cinematic Studio, I think you're covered, but not sure about the OT libraries.





marclawsonmusic said:


> I am new to articulation switching in Logic, but in 10.4.3 it is working fine for me.
> 
> However, my use case is fairly simple - one MIDI channel per (switched) instrument. As such, I haven't run into the problem with CC data not switching to different MIDI channels (heard about that on this forum). I was able to get multiple output messages to work when I sent a keyswitch prior to a CC message, but not the other way around - that's the only 'bug' I remember.
> 
> Articulation sets do not appear to be perfect or cover all possible scenarios, but like Dewdman42 said, if your use case is simple you can probably make it work. For Spitfire and Cinematic Studio, I think you're covered, but not sure about the OT libraries.


I still haven't found a way to use multiple KS with OTs Capsule. Sending more than one KS doesn't work and if I edit the event and double it with another articulation Capsule goes crazy.


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## marclawsonmusic (Jan 16, 2019)

Heinigoldstein said:


> I still haven't found a way to use multiple KS with OTs Capsule. Sending more than one KS doesn't work and if I edit the event and double it with another articulation Capsule goes crazy.



I wish I could be helpful, but I don't have OT :-( Maybe someone else will chime in with their experience.


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## rhye (Jan 16, 2019)

Heinigoldstein said:


> I still haven't found a way to use multiple KS with OTs Capsule. Sending more than one KS doesn't work and if I edit the event and double it with another articulation Capsule goes crazy.


Maybe I am missing something but, why do you need multiple key switches for OT? Their instruments work fine with regular single key switches. Are using them for combining articulations?


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## Heinigoldstein (Jan 17, 2019)

rhye said:


> Maybe I am missing something but, why do you need multiple key switches for OT? Their instruments work fine with regular single key switches. Are using them for combining articulations?


Within their multi patches you can select up to 4 articulations. This way you can xfade from f.e. no vibrato to strong vibrato or sustain to tremolo for strings or create some weird movements in their Time Macro library. Really good and easy to use, but for this you need to send more than one KS.
I´m using ARTzID for it, but as much as I appreciate this system, it´s not perfect for this either, because you can´t just do it on the fly.


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## A.G (Jan 17, 2019)

Heinigoldstein said:


> I´m using ARTzID for it, but as much as I appreciate this system, it´s not perfect for this either, because you can´t just do it on the fly.


The factory Logic Art Sets do not support four KS at the moment - no offense.
Do you mean that you cannot xfade sustain to tremolo (for example) in the middle or anywhere of a sustaining chord on the fly using the ARTzID? Do you mean that the problem is that the Note ID switching method is locked only to the Note ON art triggering? I am asking because I need more info about your “on the fly” need.


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## Peter Schwartz (Jan 17, 2019)

Heinigoldstein said:


> I still haven't found a way to use multiple KS with OTs Capsule. Sending more than one KS doesn't work and if I edit the event and double it with another articulation Capsule goes crazy.



Hey there HG, do you not have the Capsule Script? It can be programmed to send up to 4 keyswitches per ID. If you don't have it for some reason, let me know and I'll send it to you.


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## Heinigoldstein (Jan 18, 2019)

Peter Schwartz said:


> Hey there HG, do you not have the Capsule Script? It can be programmed to send up to 4 keyswitches per ID. If you don't have it for some reason, let me know and I'll send it to you.


1st I want to apologize , I didn't´t want to turn the thread into a 3rd party discussion again. I just responded to Marcs "..not sure about the OT libraries." 

Peter, I always praise ARTzID and of course I have the Capsule script and I use it for multiple KS. My (little !) problem with it is, that you have to set up the script upfront for certain combinations and I like to keep things simple during composing and arranging. So it would be perfect to have an articulation system that works like normal KS but with the benefits of the implanted articulations: If I only need f.e. Sustain on C0, I press C0. If I need a combination of 2 or more , I press C0,E0 and what ever I need in this moment. But maybe this just is technically impossible, otherwise you´ld have found a way I guess.


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## babylonwaves (Jan 18, 2019)

Heinigoldstein said:


> 1st I want to apologize , I didn't´t want to turn the thread into a 3rd party discussion again. I just responded to Marcs "..not sure about the OT libraries."


which, by the way, i didn't say but somebody else. I was just asking him what the actual issue is.


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## Heinigoldstein (Jan 18, 2019)

babylonwaves said:


> which, by the way, i didn't say but somebody else. I was just asking him what the actual issue is.


Sorry, two Marcs here I guess . I meant marclawsonmusic


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## Peter Schwartz (Jan 18, 2019)

Hey HG, I wasn't looking to turn this into a 3rd party discussion either. But the good news is that your latest post clarified (for me, anyway) what you're looking to accomplish. Interesting!

Gonna take this opportunity to say "hey man!" to babylonwaves Marc. And with that, "we now return you to your regularly scheduled non-3rd-party thread".


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 18, 2019)

Heinigoldstein said:


> So it would be perfect to have an articulation system that works like normal KS but with the benefits of the implanted articulations: If I only need f.e. Sustain on C0, I press C0. If I need a combination of 2 or more , I press C0,E0 and what ever I need in this moment. But maybe this just is technically impossible, otherwise you´ld have found a way I guess.



For that you should avoid using articulation id at all and either just record your keyswitches manually on a track or use automation in some fashion, combined with scripter. The articulation id concept is one articulation per note. Which means in order to do what you want you have to setup a separate articulation id for every combination of keyswitches you foresee using.


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## Heinigoldstein (Jan 18, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> For that you should avoid using articulation id at all and either just record your keyswitches manually on a track or use automation in some fashion, combined with scripter. The articulation id concept is one articulation per note. Which means in order to do what you want you have to setup a separate articulation id for every combination of keyswitches you foresee using.


The benefit of articulation IDs is much to big to avoid them and being able to send more than one articulation ID at once into Logic, would save this problem. It works under certain conditions, when you edit it afterwards though....but as I said, I don't know if it is possible technically.


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## Peter Schwartz (Jan 18, 2019)

"The articulation id concept is one articulation per note."

Not really. The concept is to embed an additional value into a note. What you want that value to represent, or how it's leveraged, is up to the user, script programmer, etc.


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 18, 2019)

sounds like you're picking apart my words Peter, not sure why...

You get one articulation id available per note. As I already explained, that means if you want the ability, for example, to use any combination of two different key switches..., which is three different combinations, then you need to use 3 articulation id's and setup them up each with the combination of key switches. There are advantages to the articulation id concept, but this is not one of them in HG's case.


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## Peter Schwartz (Jan 18, 2019)

Eh, no picking-apart intended or involved. I'm not sure why you'd see my response as being anything other than informative or conversational. I understand what HG is trying to accomplish. Just because a note can have only one ID doesn't mean it can't be leveraged to perform some other feat of MIDI magic.


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 18, 2019)

sure thing, but nonetheless, you can only attach one articulation id per note...which means, in his case, as he described, it would not work as he desires. and in that case, if he wants to work the way he described, he should either send the key switches manually or use automation in some fashion, or as I already described, set up a separate articulation id for each combination of key switches he needs to use.


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## Heinigoldstein (Jan 18, 2019)

Please guys, I don't want be the reason for any controversy 

Dewdman42, I understand the concept of one id per note and I'm a complete fool concerning scripting. But my naive question is, isn't there a possibility to just create an additional note event with a second ks, when I press 2 ks events on my controller , so I have f.e. C1 with ID Sustain and C1 with ID Tremolo ? It might not work with Logic IDs, but it seems to work with ARTzID when I copy and paste manuelly(sorry 3rd party again). That's all I need I guess.


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 18, 2019)

When you use the articulation set it listens for your input keyswitches and then selects one articulation at a time. So if you hit the ks for sustain then it’s in a ready state to encode the next note with an articulation id for sustain. If you hit next the ks for tremolo then the articulation id for tremolo will be active and the next note will be encoded with that articulation id, but even though you might be coincidentally hearing a tremolo sustain, the articulation id will really only be referring to tremolo. You need a third input keyswitch to signify sustain-tremolo combo, and that will encode the third articulation id into the next note.

Then during playback Id 1 sends out one ks, id2 sends out the second ks and Id 3 sends two keyswitches to ensure sustained tremolo.

Sometimes you might make the music and it sort of works out that you haven’t fully encoded your articulation combos because your instrument goes first to sustain state and then to tremolo without turning off sustain in the instrument so it still kind of works but if you were to move that note to another place in the score or make some other edits then it would not necessarily retain that sustain-tremolo articulation combo unless you have an actual artid that represents that combo and programmed to send both ks no matter what


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## Peter Schwartz (Jan 18, 2019)

Heinigoldstein said:


> Please guys, I don't want be the reason for any controversy



Sorry to tell you, but at this point it's waaaaaay too late for apologies...


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## Alex Fraser (Jan 18, 2019)

Is anyone else having issues selecting articulations for CC events in the event list? 

Appears to be an issue with the latest update. The articulation changes are taking effect, but are still displayed as a “-“ in the event list..


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## A.G (Jan 18, 2019)

It seems that the "Capsule" comments go to a dead end.

Dewdman42, please try to optimize your posts and their contents - it will be more easy to follow your ideas. Thanks.

Heinigoldstein, thanks for your "on the fly" details.

I contacted Tobias from OT a long time ago after they released Capsule. Our conversation was about Articulation Maps and their "On the Fly" compatibility.
The "Articulation Maps" concept is locked: i.e you can program up to 4 KS embedded into a Map (say Sus+Stacc+Trem+Pizz) but it is a pre-designed custom decision programing which is locked into the Maps (Art Set).

The "Capsule" goal is a simultaneous KS (chord) real time triggering which enables the correspondent Groups in the KSP script.

This is not possible in the current Logic factory Art Sets technology. I may say that it requires a special programing...


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 18, 2019)

Alex Fraser said:


> Is anyone else having issues selecting articulations for CC events in the event list?
> 
> Appears to be an issue with the latest update. The articulation changes are taking effect, but are still displayed as a “-“ in the event list..



Yes I noted about that earlier in the thread. It might be a bug or It might be intentional as I saw comments in one of their release notes about not sending key switches for cc events. It really sure, it’s kind of half baked and unclear now though


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## Dewdman42 (Jan 18, 2019)

A.G said:


> Dewdman42, please try to optimize your posts and their contents - it will be more easy to follow your ideas. Thanks.



Which part don’t you understand?


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## Alex Fraser (Jan 18, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> Yes I noted about that earlier in the thread. It might be a bug or It might be intentional as I saw comments in one of their release notes about not sending key switches for cc events. It really sure, it’s kind of half baked and unclear now though


A quick experiment shows that it does change the articulation ID's attached to the CC events, as in previous versions of Logic. It just doesn't update the display. So, looks like a bug.

Agreed that the artic system needs another hour or so in the oven. The ideal would be "don't send articulation ID's with CC events unless I explicitly say so."


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## Heinigoldstein (Jan 19, 2019)

A.G said:


> It seems that the "Capsule" comments go to a dead end.
> 
> Dewdman42, please try to optimize your posts and their contents - it will be more easy to follow your ideas. Thanks.
> 
> ...


Thanks for clarifying all this to all of you. Seems like there's still a lot of room to improove the system for you 3rd party guys !


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## Heinigoldstein (Jan 19, 2019)

Peter Schwartz said:


> Sorry to tell you, but at this point it's waaaaaay too late for apologies...


Oh my god, Pandoras Box


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## symphonic riot (Feb 2, 2019)

I have a strange problem with the input side of Articulation Sets ("Switches" pane). I control articulations by program change messages in Vienna Instruments pro and have set it up accordingly. When I turn the Midi Remote button in the Switches pane off everything works and I can switch articulations from my keyboard (yet, Articulation IDs are surely not changed). However, when I turn the Midi Remote on, no program change messages from the keyboard are transmitted to VIpro at all anymore and I always hear the same articulation while playing/recording. Therefore, it is impossible to properly play/record a sequence this way, due to the wrong articulations that are monitored. Nevertheless, when doing so, all the articulation changes I sent from my keyboard are encoded into the appropriate articulation IDs once the recording is finished, and work subsequently when I play that sequence back again! I.e. it works in principle, but is nevertheless completely unusable as it is, which is really odd. Is this a known bug or am I missing something?


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## A.G (Feb 2, 2019)

If the Articulation MIDI Remote is set to Program Changes then when you turn it ON it gets the Programs and blocks them for VI usage in Logic. Try to set the Articulation MIDI Remote "Switches" pane to say MIDI Channel 16 and external controller Programs set to CH.16. For real usage of Programs in DAW make an external controller preset with Programs set to say Ch.1 or Ch.2.


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## symphonic riot (Feb 3, 2019)

Thanks for the suggested workaround, but this does not work. If I set the channel in the Switches pane to the channel my keyboard sends and the channel in the Output pane to any other channel nothing is transmitted to the VI, no matter if MIDI Remote is active or not (which also looks like a bug).

So my initial problem must indeed be a bug, since even though it might make sense that the program changes are filtered, in case I want to control the VI by other MIDI messages (although this should be configurable), if I then explicitly assign program changes for every articulation ID in the output pane (which I did) it should definitely send those. Yet, it doesn't do that while playing/recording (with or without channel assignments), but only as soon as I play back a recorded sequence.


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## 5Lives (Feb 5, 2019)

I for one would like to thank @babylonwaves for their articulation sets. Works great for my simple use cases! Hope they support Red Room Audio in the future (or I suppose I could make my own).

I tend to prefer Logic’s approach to Cubase’s articulation maps (which to me were a pain to setup and use).


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## Symfoniq (Feb 5, 2019)

5Lives said:


> I for one would like to thank @babylonwaves for their articulation sets. Works great for my simple use cases! Hope they support Red Room Audio in the future (or I suppose I could make my own).
> 
> I tend to prefer Logic’s approach to Cubase’s articulation maps (which to me were a pain to setup and use).



Agreed that Cubase's articulation maps are a pain. It's a cumbersome, half-baked, buggy feature, and as a Cubase user, I'm surprised when articulation maps are a reason that people choose Cubase.

Now if Logic had disabled tracks, I'd probably switch back.


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## babylonwaves (Feb 5, 2019)

5Lives said:


> I for one would like to thank @babylonwaves for their articulation sets. Works great for my simple use cases! Hope they support Red Room Audio in the future (or I suppose I could make my own).


thanks @5Lives - appreciated. I'll keep your Red Room Audio request in mind


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## Vik (Feb 5, 2019)

Symfoniq said:


> if Logic had disabled tracks, I'd probably switch back


https://www.apple.com/feedback/logic-pro.html


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## Craig Allen (Jul 18, 2019)

Symfoniq said:


> Agreed that Cubase's articulation maps are a pain. It's a cumbersome, half-baked, buggy feature, and as a Cubase user, I'm surprised when articulation maps are a reason that people choose Cubase.
> 
> Now if Logic had disabled tracks, I'd probably switch back.



When you refer to Cubase's "articulation maps", are you meaning their "expression maps"?
I thought I understood those to be superior?
It sounds like Logic's articulations features still have bugs. 
Cubase's EMaps have more bugs?

(I say this as someone just beginning to explore both programs. Ease of use in this arena affects my purposes and choice of SW). 

Thanks, Craig


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## babylonwaves (Jul 18, 2019)

Craig Allen said:


> It sounds like Logic's articulations features still have bugs.
> Cubase's EMaps have more bugs?
> 
> (I say this as someone just beginning to explore both programs. Ease of use in this arena affects my purposes and choice of SW).



@Craig Allen -

both don't really have bugs these days (cubase 10, logic 10.4.6). there might be people who believe that certain aspects could have been implemented in a different way but that doesn't make it a bug. both setup editors are not as easy as other areas of logic and cubase. but that's in the nature of how things are being done, it can be a little technical. _working_ with expression maps and articulation sets is absolutely painless, setting up is the issue.

i personally would leave this area out when it comes to a buying decision. also, i think things have turned over the last two years. using articulations becomes more and more the standard approach. there is less and less people these days who want to open a track for each articulation.

hth


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 18, 2019)

There are pros and cons to both approaches and neither one is as full featured as I feel they need to be to keep me happy, but they are both better then nothing also. If i had to choose one right now it would be Logic's system mainly because articulationID's are attached to actual Note Events, which I prefer, and also i can use Logic's Scripter to make up for any deficiencies in the ArticulationSet paradigm that it provides.


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## samphony (Jul 18, 2019)

I use both approaches daily a mix and match depending on the cue. For example i like to have my notes on the geid and work with negative track delays so i have to use multiple tracks per articulations sometimes.


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