# Ableton Live 10 Announced



## synthpunk (Nov 2, 2017)

http://www.musicradar.com/news/ableton-live-10-announced-features-price-and-release-date-confirmed


----------



## Chris B (Nov 2, 2017)

They incorporated several of my priority requests, and I think Daniel had a thread on their forum too?

I was hooked by Live's automation ease, and it's still my main DAW. It'll be great to finally be able to edit multiple midi parts at the same time. The groups within groups will clean things up and be a huge time saver.

It's definitely worth reaching out to your DAW's developers, guys. "Visibility Support" in Live would take a bit of an overhaul, but who knows, maybe we'll see it in Live 11 if we ask again.


----------



## synthpunk (Nov 2, 2017)

I use it as a secondary program with Logic X sort of like Charlie but will be checking out the new additions.


----------



## Daniel James (Nov 2, 2017)

FINALLY the ability to edit multiple midi clips at once. But still no custom key commands or surround sound support. Its a step forward but still baby steps!

-DJ


----------



## Chris B (Nov 2, 2017)

Daniel, realistically, how long did it take you to comfortably transition over from Live to Cubase? In your video, you discuss several of the strengths of Cubase over Live 9, but is there anything that you still miss from Live?

I've been kicking my "locked up in a room with Cubase weekend" down the road, but I'm still curious.


----------



## D Halgren (Nov 2, 2017)

Daniel James said:


> FINALLY the ability to edit multiple midi clips at once. But still no custom key commands or surround sound support. Its a step forward but still baby steps!
> 
> -DJ


It looks like there is a surround pan device included. Not sure how effective it will be. Saw it on Abletons site. It's a little buried, so you have to look for it.


----------



## Daniel James (Nov 2, 2017)

Chris B said:


> Daniel, realistically, how long did it take you to comfortably transition over from Live to Cubase? In your video, you discuss several of the strengths of Cubase over Live 9, but is there anything that you still miss from Live?
> 
> I've been kicking my "locked up in a room with Cubase weekend" down the road, but I'm still curious.



Took me a couple of months to be 'comfortable' I was up and running in days, muscle memory takes time tho.

-DJ


----------



## Daniel James (Nov 2, 2017)

D Halgren said:


> It looks like there is a surround pan device included. Not sure how effective it will be. Saw it on Abletons site. It's a little buried, so you have to look for it.



Can you link me to it? I saw split stereo panning but I dont recall seeing 5.1/surround support.

-DJ


----------



## rvb (Nov 2, 2017)

Midi chaser, group in groups, automation ease thing and the browser update all seem like super cool new features for my workflow!


----------



## Dan Drebing (Nov 2, 2017)

I'm curious if they're going to allow us to edit CC in the arrangement lanes....I was seriously thinking about shifting to Cubase because of CC editing and multi midi clip editing but maybe I'll stick around...


----------



## rvb (Nov 2, 2017)

They don't mention anything about lesser cpuload or better performance with third party plugins, that always seems to be a bit lacking compared to logic for me.


----------



## MillsMixx (Nov 2, 2017)

Daniel James said:


> FINALLY the ability to edit multiple midi clips at once.
> 
> -DJ



Strictly talking midi here.
I've been making the switch from Ableton to Cubase yet haven't had a chance to dive in so I'm still not familiar with Cubase's midi functions that everyone raves about. 
With these new midi features they're adding to Ableton (multiple midi clips at once, etc) is there still other more powerful features that Cubase offers that Ableton still won't have from what we can tell? 

I will still surely upgrade to 10 even though I just bought Cubase Pro and can't wait to see the new Live improvements!


----------



## D Halgren (Nov 2, 2017)

Daniel James said:


> Can you link me to it? I saw split stereo panning but I dont recall seeing 5.1/surround support.
> 
> -DJ


Here you go!


----------



## Daniel James (Nov 2, 2017)

MillsMixx said:


> Strictly talking midi here.
> I've been making the switch from Ableton to Cubase yet haven't had a chance to dive in so I'm still not familiar with Cubase's midi functions that everyone raves about.
> With these new midi features they're adding to Ableton (multiple midi clips at once, etc) is there still other more powerful features that Cubase offers that Ableton still won't have from what we can tell?
> 
> I will still surely upgrade to 10 even though I just bought Cubase Pro and can't wait to see the new Live improvements!



Ratio adjustments. Midi 'compression and expansion". Ratio Ramps. They are things I can no longer live without.

-DJ


----------



## Daniel James (Nov 2, 2017)

D Halgren said:


> Here you go!



HAHA the fuck. Why isnt this more prominent. Fucking Ableton xD ...That is awesome then!!!

-DJ


----------



## Daniel James (Nov 2, 2017)

D Halgren said:


> Here you go!



Wait is this a MAX for Live thing? or native?

Because if its max for Live and Ableton doesn't natively support it, there is no way to export it. You cant actually import surround files either.

-DJ


----------



## D Halgren (Nov 2, 2017)

Daniel James said:


> HAHA the fuck. Why isnt this more prominent. Fucking Ableton xD ...That is awesome then!!!
> 
> -DJ


It was buried for sure.


----------



## D Halgren (Nov 2, 2017)

Daniel James said:


> Wait is this a MAX for Live thing? or native?
> 
> -DJ


Max, but Max is native now, more or less.


----------



## Daniel James (Nov 2, 2017)

D Halgren said:


> Max, but Max is native now, more or less.



Yeah that worries me because looking at the set up it looks like its just a 'live surround mixer' Like it doesnt seem to be possible to actually export 5.1 files. You can just set up speakers and move sounds in a live environment.

That also suggests (the fact its Max for Live and not native) that we wont be able to import surround files either.

-DJ


----------



## D Halgren (Nov 2, 2017)

Daniel James said:


> Yeah that worries me because looking at the set up it looks like its just a 'live surround mixer' Like it doesnt seem to be possible to actually export 5.1 files. You can just set up speakers and move sounds in a live environment.
> 
> That also suggests (the fact its Max for Live and not native) that we wont be able to import surround files either.
> 
> -DJ


I see your point. You should contact them! Use some DJ pull


----------



## manuhz (Nov 2, 2017)

Hmmm wait, no VST3 support...really?


----------



## ResSerp (Nov 2, 2017)

manuhz said:


> Hmmm wait, no VST3 support...really?



Same here. No VST3 support?


----------



## skyy38 (Nov 2, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> http://www.musicradar.com/news/ableton-live-10-announced-features-price-and-release-date-confirmed




Whoop De DOO!

And THIS has to do something with the fact, that you are not "automated" enough?


----------



## heisenberg (Nov 2, 2017)

Daniel James said:


> Yeah that worries me because looking at the set up it looks like its just a 'live surround mixer' Like it doesnt seem to be possible to actually export 5.1 files. You can just set up speakers and move sounds in a live environment.
> 
> That also suggests (the fact its Max for Live and not native) that we wont be able to import surround files either.
> 
> -DJ



I would be stunned if Ableton did not keep the ability of using full blown Max (files) with Ableton Live. A bit of time on the Cycling 74' forum should bring clarity on this point.

EDIT:

Here is a thread that touches on the topic:

https://cycling74.com/forums/max-8-coming-in-the-second-quarter-of-2018


----------



## paulmatthew (Nov 3, 2017)

Ouch ! $240 for the preorder price to upgrade suite 9 to suite 10. I'm not sure the new features are worth that for me. I upgraded to Cubase 9 from 7 for much less than that. I'll have to investigate the new features more before making a decision with this . Who's got 5 hours to spare ??


----------



## Kevin Fortin (Nov 3, 2017)

Sweetwater's site says the preorder price is good until February 5, 2018, in case anyone needs time to think about this.


----------



## sinkd (Nov 3, 2017)

Dan Drebing said:


> I'm curious if they're going to allow us to edit CC in the arrangement lanes....I was seriously thinking about shifting to Cubase because of CC editing and multi midi clip editing but maybe I'll stick around...


Can't you edit CCs (volume, expression, pan, mod, etc.) in Arrangement view already? Not sure what you mean...


----------



## InLight-Tone (Nov 3, 2017)

People who have the beta are reporting that Max4Live devices open up faster than VST's because of the native integration. That's going to be one powerful piece of kit...


----------



## Dan Drebing (Nov 3, 2017)

sinkd said:


> Can't you edit CCs (volume, expression, pan, mod, etc.) in Arrangement view already? Not sure what you mean...


As far as I know you can edit cc in arrangement view, but you have to edit them in the midi clip view instead of automating them in the automation lanes on each channel like you can do for plugin settings. Maybe I'm wrong though; I'd like to be wrong about this!


----------



## Matt Riley (Nov 3, 2017)

I've been using Ableton Live since version 6 and I'm definitely not going to upgrade to 10. They move at a snails pace with updates, don't seem to listen to customers about which updates to implement, and ask ridiculous amounts of money for their software compared to the rest of the market. They give you so few features compared with the competition too. I'll still use Live 9 for live performance but I'm so glad I switched to Logic for composing a while back.


----------



## Daniel James (Nov 3, 2017)

Fucking $240 for the upgrade. Fucks sake. Of course I will update because I need Ableton for my work and the multiple midi editing (which is somehow a feature in 2017) is going to speed up my workflow so much. But that price will leave a sour taste in my mouth for sure.

Looking forward to Cubase 10 xD

-DJ


----------



## paulmatthew (Nov 3, 2017)

Daniel James said:


> Fucking $240 for the upgrade. Fucks sake. Of course I will update because I need Ableton for my work and the multiple midi editing (which is somehow a feature in 2017) is going to speed up my workflow so much. But that price will leave a sour taste in my mouth for sure.
> 
> Looking forward to Cubase 10 xD
> 
> -DJ


Like I said before . The juice isn't worth the squeeze on this one . I thought Ableton was bought out by Izotope for a minute when I saw that price tag last night . It's a tough call either way . Sure the new features will be nice , but is it worth it? Hard to say at this point .


----------



## rrichard63 (Nov 3, 2017)

There's one group of customers who might jump on this one. If you currently own Live Standard and have ever thought about upgrading to Live Suite, for $271 you can go in two steps from 9 Standard to 10 Suite.


----------



## Dan Drebing (Nov 3, 2017)

This article says something to the effect that you still can't edit midi events directly in the automation lanes, which makes me think that I'll still be clicking through cc selectors in the midi clips to edit cc 1, 7 and 11.

https://cdm.link/2017/11/ableton-live-10-depth-hands-impressions-whats-new/

Looks like I'll be getting cubase after all. Just gotta figure out how to rewire Ableton into cubase so I'm not limited to 8 inserts per channel...


----------



## kitekrazy (Nov 3, 2017)

rrichard63 said:


> There's one group of customers who might jump on this one. If you currently own Live Standard and have ever thought about upgrading to Live Suite, for $271 you can go in two steps from 9 Standard to 10 Suite.



They should ditch the Suite and offer add ons. Once you get into that that Suite chain you'll have to pay a hefty upgrade just to use your previous Suite stuff. The pricing is not competitive with all of the competition in the DAW market. I paid that price to go from Live to Suite but I've never paid anything close to that other than when Sonar 4 Life was $199 last year. I can see Bitwig offering their DAW for $299 when Live 10 is released. My Studio One Pro upgrades were under $130. I think Reaper was $29. I think this will have more of a negative impact in the hobbyist market. More and more I think about getting more into Reaper and FL Studio since they are budget DAWs that go really deep. I do love Live though.


----------



## paulmatthew (Nov 3, 2017)

rrichard63 said:


> There's one group of customers who might jump on this one. If you currently own Live Standard and have ever thought about upgrading to Live Suite, for $271 you can go in two steps from 9 Standard to 10 Suite.


And the Push group . They market that thing like it's the greatest thing since sliced bread . Sorry but I'll take a proper midi controller keyboard with modwheel over their flavor of the month any day . Remember NI kore ? where is it now ? in a year or 2 they will probably come out with s different device that's so innovative and a must have , etc . Blah blah blah .


----------



## Matt Riley (Nov 3, 2017)

Do people actually fall for that silly promo video? Most DAW promo videos: Here are some great new features that will help your workflow. Ableton promo videos: Hey wouldn't you like to be cool like the models in the video? You could be like them if you had Ableton Live!


----------



## jcrosby (Nov 3, 2017)

Matt Riley said:


> I've been using Ableton Live since version 6 and I'm definitely not going to upgrade to 10. They move at a snails pace with updates, don't seem to listen to customers about which updates to implement, and ask ridiculous amounts of money for their software compared to the rest of the market. They give you so few features compared with the competition too. I'll still use Live 9 for live performance but I'm so glad I switched to Logic for composing a while back.



Agreed. At *$749* for the full shebang Live is, as far as I know it, the most expensive DAW on the market.

And the quality and selection of native plugins is sad when you look at the price tag. They get away with that asking price simply because an entire genre of users use it either as a hybrid for writing and DJing, and/or its marketed to them in such a way that its assumed to be the ideal program for pick-your-EDM-genre... The pricing is predatory AFAIC.

And Indeed. Users have been asking for VST3 support for YEARS. Good god this has to be the most straight forward and sensible feature request a DAW developer can get. Not having it by now is just f-ing pathetic. Considering it's not mentioned as a selling point it should be assumed it's still not supported. 

And yes, CPU use in Live has always been painful. No mention of that either so regardless of Max for Live being more efficient, I'll assume there haven't been optimizations improving 3rd party plugins. (Rendering on a single thread also drives me up the wall. Live is painful to export from.)

AFAIC Push is what killed Live. Ever since the release of Push Live has been a slow and painful trickle of new features, most of which not driven by user demand. Unfortunately I see Maschine/Komplete Kontrol doing the same to NI... Shift the focus from the quality of software to the marketing of a _lifestyle, _and develop hardware in a way that encourages users to perceive the hardware as being necessary to navigate the software instead of just IMPROVING THE F-ING SOFTWARE... 

Rant over


----------



## jcrosby (Nov 3, 2017)

Matt Riley said:


> Do people actually fall for that silly promo video? Most DAW promo videos: Here are some great new features that will help your workflow. Ableton promo videos: Hey wouldn't you like to be cool like the models in the video? You could be like them if you had Ableton Live!


 Yeah this made me nauseous. (As did Izotope's Spire video.) That video ruined Izotope's reputation for me. Campaigns like this mark when a company stops making practical, user driven decisions, and starts peddling a lifestyle. Feel the exact same same way about this, pretty much rolled my eyes into the back of my head.


----------



## Alohabob (Nov 5, 2017)

Will owners of suite 9 get the update for free?


----------



## ism (Nov 5, 2017)

rrichard63 said:


> There's one group of customers who might jump on this one. If you currently own Live Standard and have ever thought about upgrading to Live Suite, for $271 you can go in two steps from 9 Standard to 10 Suite.




Ableton site is showing me $589 upgrade from 9 standard to 10 suite. Hard to see what I'd be getting for the $269 upgrade to 10 standard. Slightly less mediocre midi features that are still many years behind logic and a slightly better loop browser.

I'm a big fan of Live since Live 1 the "composition instrument". But not seeing much of a value proposition in this update for an orchestral workflow. I'd love to be able to do orchestral sketching in Live, but have found it really cumbersome, and I don't thing the announced midi editing improvements go far enough.


----------



## rrichard63 (Nov 5, 2017)

ism said:


> Ableton site is showing me $589 upgrade from 9 standard to 10 suite. ...


Are you logged into your account? When I'm logged in it shows me $271 to go from 9 Standard to 9 Suite, with the upgrade from 9 Suite to 10 Suite being free to those who made a purchase between now and the release date.


Alohabob said:


> Will owners of suite 9 get the update for free?


I don't think so, unless you bought 9 Suite in the last couple of days, or buy it between now and the day 10 Suite is released. But you have to be logged into your Ableton account and an owner of 9 Suite to find out for sure.


----------



## ism (Nov 5, 2017)

rrichard63 said:


> Are you logged into your account? When I'm logged in it shows me $271 to go from 9 Standard to 9 Suite, with the upgrade from 9 Suite to 10 Suite being free to those who made a purchase between now and the release date.




I am logged in and these are the numbers I get when I look at live 10 pricing. But you're right, when I look at upgrade to suite 9 instead the pricing is much lower. Thanks for pointing that out!


----------



## heisenberg (Nov 5, 2017)

Alohabob said:


> Will owners of suite 9 get the update for free?



No. $239 USD


----------



## n9n9n9 (Nov 5, 2017)

that wave synth looks *great* and the echo mod looks very nice as does the drum bus comp. Serum + echoboy + a new comp + pedal emu (cytomics i’m guessing) is more than the upgrade. and 9.5 and 9.7 were free. works for me. It is expensive but I could sell Serum and Soundtoys for more.  preordered.


----------



## jononotbono (Nov 5, 2017)

As a Cubase user since SX2, what would be the point of using Ableton? What is it's strong points compared to Cubase Pro 9? I just can't get my head around why I would spend so much money on Ableton when I already use Cubase. I must have missed something.


----------



## n9n9n9 (Nov 5, 2017)

ableton is nice. fully modular routing, very rational workflow, includes Max/MSP and has the Session view, which is pretty great. And Push is a wonder if you are a beat person. Push is also great for peeps like me as it makes automappung control and automation a breeze... i do most of my work without looking at a screen. also, the built in sampler and synths and effects are quite good and very extensive.

if it isnt for you that’s cool. I used Logic from version 2.5 until Live v2 came out and noting but Live since 2002.


----------



## Matt Riley (Nov 5, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> As a Cubase user since SX2, what would be the point of using Ableton? What is it's strong points compared to Cubase Pro 9? I just can't get my head around why I would spend so much money on Ableton when I already use Cubase. I must have missed something.


A simple workflow. And Session view which is good for sketching ideas and firing off loops and sequences on the fly during live performance.


----------



## rrichard63 (Nov 5, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> As a Cubase user since SX2, what would be the point of using Ableton? What is it's strong points compared to Cubase Pro 9? I just can't get my head around why I would spend so much money on Ableton when I already use Cubase. I must have missed something.


Basically, what n9n9n9 and Matt Riley just said, with one additional point. Whether the Session View makes any difference to you depends a lot on how you compose, record and mix. It's not for everybody. But a bunch of EDM and urban music producers would be lost without it.


----------



## jononotbono (Nov 5, 2017)

Push sounds interesting. I'll check it out.


----------



## jononotbono (Nov 5, 2017)

rrichard63 said:


> Basically, what n9n9n9 and Matt Riley just said, with one additional point. Whether the Session View makes any difference to you depends a lot on how you compose, record and mix. It's not for everybody. But a bunch of EDM and urban music producers would be lost without it.



If it's great for drum programming then it's worth me having a look but as for writing music, Cubase is king (for me).


----------



## ism (Nov 5, 2017)

Matt Riley said:


> A simple workflow. And Session view which is good for sketching ideas and firing off loops and sequences on the fly during live performance.




Yeah - it really could be great for sketching. I still remember Live's original tag of "composition instrument" I was working entirely with loops at the time (I don't think live 1 even supported VST) but it really was a revelation. Over the next few releases they got the midi + VST so that this concept extended brilliantly from loops to at least certain type of electronic compositions. 

Occasionally I load it up and try to sketch up some more complicated orchestral piece, but always get frustrated and at how cumbersome it is go back to Logic.

I think this update shows that they're really not thinking of orchestral composition in this update - although I'll take a careful look once its released. It's encouraging to hear that they talked to Daniel James.

But I remember that initial revelation of how suddenly having a "composition instrument" and can help thinking this would be great if it could be realized for orchestral composition.

Someone will figure out how to do this, but I can't help feeling it probably won't be either Ableton or Apple.


----------



## ism (Nov 5, 2017)

(And the other side of this is that I desperately want something like session view in Logic)


----------



## paulmatthew (Nov 5, 2017)

Alohabob said:


> Will owners of suite 9 get the update for free?


Not unless you just bought it . Your upgrade will be $240


----------



## InLight-Tone (Nov 5, 2017)

I think Live is a great experimental sketch pad. I don't like trying to finish tracks in it though. Charlie Clouser uses it that way I believe. For fast free form improvisational composing it's great especially combined with Push. Max being native now is all the better. If you have any inclinations towards algorithmic and or CAC A/V composition Max is a godsend...


----------



## Dan Drebing (Nov 6, 2017)

Alohabob said:


> Will owners of suite 9 get the update for free?



I think it's supposed to be $240 for a 9 suite to 10 suite upgrade, which gets you a....new wavetable synth?

/Sarcasm


----------



## n9n9n9 (Nov 6, 2017)

you get a wavetable synth, a replica xt/ echoboy grade delay, real max4live integration, a new Drum buss comp, a component modeled distortion effect, lots of workflow optimizations, a new preset/favorite management setup, lots of push2 features, 20+ GB of new sounds, updated LFO, env follower and shaper tools, etc. Also there hasn't been a paid update for more than two years.


----------



## Matt Riley (Nov 6, 2017)

n9n9n9 said:


> you get a wavetable synth, a replica xt/ echoboy grade delay, real max4live integration, a new Drum buss comp, a component modeled distortion effect, lots of workflow optimizations, a new preset/favorite management setup, lots of push2 features, 20+ GB of new sounds, updated LFO, env follower and shaper tools, etc. Also there hasn't been a paid update for more than two years.


There hasn't been a paid update in two years as it should be since they didn't do much in terms of improvements or added funtionality. Even Live 10 looks like it is still missing a ton of basic functionality that we have come to expect from a DAW in 2017. Look at Logic's list of free updates (or Reaper) for comparison.


----------



## aumordia (Nov 6, 2017)

Uh oh somebody said something bad about Ableton looks like its time for a FIGHT


----------



## n9n9n9 (Nov 6, 2017)

meh. The discussion about what is the release could be better than "it costs too much," was my point. Deleted my comment. I have the beta and have been using it for a couple of days. So far I'm mostly sad that VST preset management is still not managed by the DAW, which is idiotic. AU presets are properly managed and work beautifully with the favorites feature in the browser, with push, etc. Everything else is really nice. IMO it is a solid upgrade.


max4live stuff loads faster and looks better and is generally better integrated and more performant. It is much more like it is all part of the same program now instead of a hack.
MIDI editing of multiple tracks is really nice, the automation changes feel like they are going to work a lot better for me, but I have not been able to dive the whole way in.
New arrange workflow overall is welcome. I work mostly in arrange these days a enjoy it.
Favorites management is very good and well integrated with the exception of the VST presets that I mentioned above.
The pedal effect sounds *wonderful* -- it must be a port of the Cytomic product of the same name. That guy really knows what he is doing.
The wavetable synth is really nice, sounds like the one in Reason, sounds like Serum, but is more limited than either one and is, in general, quite good but has not shown me anything beyond that. I don't like the live built in instruments that much.
The echo effect is impressive. Not Echoboy great, maybe Replika XT great. I'm not sure I would buy those again if I had had this.


----------



## vicontrolu (Nov 6, 2017)

I use it for sound design. It's killer. Much faster than cubase. I'll happily pay just for the arrangement improvements and wavetable.

Lack of user definable keycommands and macros makes it impossible for me to use for orchestral music production.


----------



## n9n9n9 (Nov 6, 2017)

apparently all the key commands are user definable now, but i don’t see the depth i would want for those tasks.


----------



## elpedro (Nov 6, 2017)

A lot of money for what seems little more than an update, maybe i'll indulge at some future sale?


----------



## jcrosby (Nov 7, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> If it's great for drum programming then it's worth me having a look but as for writing music, Cubase is king (for me).


That's the way I work. Logic is where I do orchestral and score work, Live is where I do production music, (if non-orchestral). It's also a great sound design tool... You can rewire it and use it to mangle up sound quickly and spit it back to Logic... ( Rewire doesn't host non-native VIs though. Only Live devices.)

It has a fast workflow, I give it that. But there are so many _standard_ things it doesn't do... Templates, timecode, marker playlists, a midi event editor... 

It's also shy on plugins that are standard with other daws and the native plugins are not particularly great... (Although Max improved this somewhat. And, Live has some plugins of its own that you'd be hardpressed to find in some other daws...) It also doesn't have any pitch correction, (which virtually every daw has standard now,) no level/loudness meters...
I'll stop before I get grumpy


----------



## InLight-Tone (Nov 7, 2017)

jcrosby said:


> That's the way I work. Logic is where I do orchestral and score work, Live is where I do production music, (if non-orchestral). It's also a great sound design tool... You can rewire it and use it to mangle up sound quickly and spit it back to Logic... ( Rewire doesn't host non-native VIs though. Only Live devices.)
> 
> It has a fast workflow, I give it that. But there are so many _standard_ things it doesn't do... Templates, timecode, marker playlists, a midi event editor...
> 
> ...


I've heard that Max devices won't work when Live is a Rewire slave. That's unfortunate as I had high hopes for that...


----------

