# Starting work on a major project - should I learn Finale or stick with Sib 4?



## FirmamentFX (Feb 23, 2007)

Hi guys,

I am about to start work on a major project which will involve notating orchestral parts for a 2 1/2 hour show.

I know Sibelius very well, but it does have annoying "features", like corrupting my files and moving objects around randomly...

The studio I will be working in has Finale 2006. Is it worth learning it? I have heard very good things about it, but it seems a lot more complicated than Sib 4 (which I own). However, it seems that you can do a lot more with it - easy compound time sigs, automatic spacing etc etc, which Sib - easyy to use as it is - seems to fall down on.

What is the learning curve like coming from Sib 4?

Cheers!

Martin


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## Daryl (Feb 23, 2007)

Sibelius shouldn't be corrupting any files. I've never had this in 13 years of use. This should be reported to Sibelius as a bug if it happens with regularity. by all means learn Finale, but it will take a long time to un-learn the Sibelius way of doing things.

D


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## FirmamentFX (Feb 23, 2007)

Maybe I was overstating the fact - corrupting wasn't the word...

"f****ng up" would be moò¶4   RØ¶4   RÙ¶4   RÚ¶4   RÛ¶4   RÜ¶4   RÝ¶4   RÞ¶4   Rß¶4   Rà¶4   Rá¶4   Râ¶4   Rã¶4   Rä¶4   Rå¶4   Ræ¶4   Rç¶4   Rè¶4   Ré¶4   Rê¶4   Rë¶4   Rì¶4   Rí¶4   Rî¶4   Rï¶4   Rð¶4   Rñ¶4   Rò¶4   Ró¶4   Rô¶4   Rõ¶4   Rö¶4   R÷¶5   Rø¶5   Rù¶5   Rú¶5   Rû¶5   Rü¶5   Rý¶5   Rþ¶5   Rÿ¶5   RŽ ¶5   RŽ¶5   RŽ¶5   RŽ¶5   RŽ¶5   RŽ¶5   RŽ¶5   RŽ¶5   RŽ¶5   RŽ	¶5   RŽ
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## Daryl (Feb 24, 2007)

FirmamentFX @ Sat Feb 24 said:


> FirmamentFX @ Sat Feb 24 said:
> 
> 
> > After some heavy editing of the "template" file I am using (I do a "template" file for each project, so every cue uses the same template), parts with no notes in (ie completely TACET parts) do not have the title at the top of the page, which messes up printing of parts.
> ...


Easy; copy and paste the headers in the score so that they are attached to the pickup bar when you need it. This will fix your tacets as well (I think).

D


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## Daryl (Feb 24, 2007)

FirmamentFX @ Sat Feb 24 said:


> Maybe I was overstating the fact - corrupting wasn't the word...
> 
> "f****ng up" would be more appropriate 8)
> 
> ...


Martin, I don't want to seem to get at you, but almost all the problems that I've seen with Sibelius 4 are caused by the user. If you really are having these sort of problems I would suggest that you raise these issues on the Sibelius Chat page where you can post examples and we can all see what the problem is.

D


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## FirmamentFX (Feb 24, 2007)

None taken :mrgreen: 

I think I'm just a little p***ed off with having to use workarounds all the time for anything that's a bit complicated - in my limited experience of Finale I know that, for example, compound time sigs can be put in almost instantly, without ending up with something looking like a high school fraction...

Please don't get me wrong - I DO really really like Sib 4. I love dynamic parts, I enjoy how easy it is to get nice results quickly. I just feel that when you hit something that is a bit complicated, Sib kinda goes "oh, ok... you can't actually do that straight up, but here's a 30-step workaround". It's good that they provide workarounds, but surely by v4 more should be "built in"...

I haven't ever actually used sibelius chat - will get onto it...


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## Nickie Fønshauge (Feb 24, 2007)

FirmamentFX @ 24th February 2007 said:


> Thanks for the comments re Finale. I know that all the big theatre producers (Cameron mackintosh, Really Useful etc) in the UK use it, so I just thought it might be an improvement... Clearly not o/~


I have not done any part extraction with Finale myself, but I follow the discussions on the Finale Forum. Some of the posters there are professional engravers, who make heavy use of part extraction. And they never miss a chance to complain about bugs. However, I can not recall having seen any reference to the "bugs", Misterbee mentioned. Maybe he is using an older version (pre Finale 2006)?

I propose you either create a test project with the F06, you have access to, or download the F07 demo, and test this. It is the only way you can truely know, if Finale is the app. for you. I will not say like Daryl, that almost all the problems that I've seen reported about Finale 2006/7 are caused by the user (there are bugs, although many are hard to find), but a lot of them turned out to be that.


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## Daryl (Feb 24, 2007)

FirmamentFX @ Sat Feb 24 said:


> None taken :mrgreen:
> 
> I think I'm just a little p***ed off with having to use workarounds all the time for anything that's a bit complicated - in my limited experience of Finale I know that, for example, compound time sigs can be put in almost instantly, without ending up with something looking like a high school fraction...
> 
> ...


What is the problem with compound time sigs? An example, if you would please?

D


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## Scott Rogers (Feb 24, 2007)

..........


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## FirmamentFX (Feb 25, 2007)

Hi guys,

Firstly - can I apologise for my lack of clarity. By compound, I actually meant alternating, not compound in the sense of 6/8, 9/8, 12/8 etc...! My mistake.

I wish alternating were easier - I often use sigs like 4/4 3/4 or C 2/4. I was bemoaning the fact that one has to type in all the time sigs, then delete them, then put in the alternating sig, rather than just being able to create an "alternating" time sig straight off...

I do mostly theatre (or theater if _you_ want to misspell it... :mrgreen: ) which tends to have a lot of alternating sigs (and yes, I use huge time sigs in my full scores as well).

Scott - thanks for all the advice. I have to say that since Daryl actually started questioning me closely regarding things I don't like, it has forced me to actually think more about it, and I am therefore learning new things in Sib all the time now . So thanks Daryl! o-[][]-o 

One further question - is it possible to set up a template with headers on page 2 already in place, even though the initial template is only 1 page? Whenever I use any headers (after first page) from page 2 onwards, if I delete the bars on page 2, the headers then don';t come back when I put new bars in...

Cheers!

Martin


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## FirmamentFX (Feb 25, 2007)

FirmamentFX @ Sun Feb 25 said:


> One further question - is it possible to set up a template with headers on page 2 already in place, even though the initial template is only 1 page? Whenever I use any headers (after first page) from page 2 onwards, if I delete the bars on page 2, the headers then don';t come back when I put new bars in...



Actually, I think I've got it - you have to create the header on the first page (even though it doesn't appear on page 1)...

Is that correct?

M


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## FirmamentFX (Feb 25, 2007)

Nickie Fønshauge @ Sat Feb 24 said:


> I propose you either create a test project with the F06, you have access to, or download the F07 demo, and test this. It is the only way you can truely know, if Finale is the app. for you. I will not say like Daryl, that almost all the problems that I've seen reported about Finale 2006/7 are caused by the user (there are bugs, although many are hard to find), but a lot of them turned out to be that.



Hi Nick,

Thanks for the reply. I think at some point I will learn Finale properly, but for now stick with Sibelius, as I have a head start of learning it...

However, while have access to the full Finale, I will mess around with it a bit and see what happens!

Thanks!

Martin


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## Daryl (Feb 25, 2007)

FirmamentFX @ Sun Feb 25 said:


> FirmamentFX @ Sun Feb 25 said:
> 
> 
> > One further question - is it possible to set up a template with headers on page 2 already in place, even though the initial template is only 1 page? Whenever I use any headers (after first page) from page 2 onwards, if I delete the bars on page 2, the headers then don';t come back when I put new bars in...
> ...


Yes, as the header after first page is attached to bar one of the piece, it will appear when you go onto page two. However, you might need to temporarily create page two when setting up the template. I do this by putting a temporary page break after page one, which has the other advantage of making it easy to spot whether or not everything is attached to bar one that should be.

D


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## Daryl (Feb 25, 2007)

FirmamentFX @ Sun Feb 25 said:


> I wish alternating were easier - I often use sigs like 4/4 3/4 or C 2/4. I was bemoaning the fact that one has to type in all the time sigs, then delete them, then put in the alternating sig, rather than just being able to create an "alternating" time sig straight off...
> 
> Martin


If you have a regular alternating time sigs, then you can copy and paste a huge number of empty bars with the time sigs in about 5 seconds. You can even just copy and paste the time sigs if you like. When you have entered all the notes filter for the time sigs and delete; another 6 or 7 seconds. :lol: 

D


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