# Yep, Rush screwed the pooch, but....



## NYC Composer (Mar 11, 2012)

...I've been thinking about this for quite a while.

I like Bill Maher's show.It's smart, informative, funny. However-I don't like Maher, and I'm growing uncomfortable with the multiple roles he now occupies. Is he a comedian, a pundit, a talk show house, a liberal icon? All of those things, obviously, but therein lies the problem.

As I said, I like the show, but I'm not crazy about the man. He's smarmy, patronizing and goes for the cheap shot too often for my taste. I wasn't happy with Religulous, for example-I mean, could he have picked any easier targets than roadside rural truckdriver churches, Jesus theme parks and museums, etc? Where were the discussions about ethics and morality with Jesuit priests from Fordham? How about a one on one with the Lubavitcher Rebbe? Maybe a Dobson or two, you know, people who could fight back and make their case as to why faith is a civilizing influence in the world?

I detest the way he dismisses and ridicules people's faith. I thought the idea of liberalism or progressivism included a healthy dose of tolerance for the beliefs of others. I don't mind that he doesn't share the views of religionists (nor do I) or rails against hypocrites, proselytizing zealots or frauds, but there are plenty of people of faith out there living quietly moral lives, comforted by their belief systems and tolerant of others.

The current issue with Limbaugh's most recent bit of pathetic misogyny made me think about Maher as well, and not just because conservatives are trying to use him as an equivalent-I've thought he was an over the top sexist for quite a while. Why hasn't there been more of an outcry when he called Palin or a c*nt and a bimbo, or makes fun of her pregnant teenage daughter (which, if it happened to my daughter, I would have considered heinous and been outraged)? Her sex should have nothing to do with her fitness to hold office, and there's quite a difference between "c*nt" and "moron. The latter, I could see. The former...well...why?

Maybe when he's doing standup comedy there should be a different standard, but I think the show has crossed into more serious political debate and punditry, and he should tone down his sexist and intolerant rhetoric lest he be marginalized in the same way Limbaugh has been.


----------



## chimuelo (Mar 11, 2012)

The 30 year old student is a typical spoiled brat who feels above the rest of us. I mean 200k for school, you'd think they would consider her an investment and provide her contraception.
But Anita Dunns ploy worked very well as we are discussing this 30 year old child and not the fact that the mandate Obama wanted for Catholic services was the original insult against a religion.
Between Maher and Obama, the women and Seniors of America aren't very happy, but if you keep promising freebies, eventually you'll hit the right sector of voters.
But every Senoir who listens to Rush is definately not voting for Obama this time, so they need another voting block. Kiss women independants goodbye now, the N.O.W. types will vote for Obama no matter what, but the Independants are being lost in droves, and add the elderly too since 600 Billion was taken from Medicare to fund the Health Care Bill.
It's not Rush telling them that either, it's their own doctors, and then a few choice clips from Cass Sunnstein who advises the President. 
His advise is this, Seniors are costing us too much money, they are a bad investment as they don't spend their money but horde it as many sirvived the last Depression and are conservatve from habit.
So Once they start waiting in lines and finding prescriptions and appointments harder and harder to get, they will die younger. These are facts and well documented, that's why Princess Nancy wanted the bill passed, then she would tell you all about it as her private doctor I am quite sure comes to her door.

It's sickening what these 1%'r's do to each other and the millions they spend just to get to DC for a low 6 figure salary. I think the recent clip of Romney saying he wanted to go to DC because that's where the money is, just shows that even a super wealthy man like him considers that " all of the money " is in DC.
Sadly we are infected by these 2 pathetic false groups.
I pray their numbers are diminished by freshmen this year.
Leave Obama in there, he's taken good care of his donors, and is a man of his word " off camera " and I actually own a piece of his legisaltion. My dues money once again will go to the organizers that have ensured us we are exempted from the peasants Health Care Plan. Funny thing, so is Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, Cass Sunstein, and all of the other 1%'r's' that are there to protect the little people.

Bill Maher and Limbaugh have a show to run, I expect people to not censor their speech, and trust me, the way they are going they will lose more and more support by the people, as they become more and more Vile.
Guys like Dennis Miller and Carrot Top can easily replace these guys and keep the hypocrcy going in a more respectful, funny way.
But more than anything when Maher attacked a special needs child, that was when I thought someone should beat his punk ass. The C word was a desperate attempt to boost ratings.
The GOP candidates can thank him personally as the Independant women will now see his campaign donation accepted by Obama as a very desperate campaign taking money from donors and PACs, and if I remember correctly, Obama was against that in 2008. 

Well 4 years of having to do what you're told all of the time can have an effect on ones beliefs and judgements.
If Maher is offensive, don;t watch him, and I can;t help from hearing Rush, I take out the trash and carry in Groceries for 2 elderly women that are my neighbors, and they have him on all damn day.
What an angry man. I can;t understand why anyone would watch or listen to these corporate sponsored mouthpieces, or MSNBC, or Faux.....
It's a stacked deck. I prefer using my own methods of research when time provides, but it';s nice to know that each side has their propoganda machine that can mention the talking points, then I can track down the source and read it from credible " journalists " which are a dying breed.'These are the ones who sneak into Syria and Iran to get us the real story instead of these preppy stenographers who wait for their talking points and Parrot the message to the Humans who grow Wool.

Hey guess what the State Song Of Montana Is......?
THey'll Never Be Another Ewe.......

Ankyu.


----------



## choc0thrax (Mar 11, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sun Mar 11 said:


> ...I've been thinking about this for quite a while.
> 
> I like Bill Maher's show.It's smart, informative, funny. However-I don't like Maher, and I'm growing uncomfortable with the multiple roles he now occupies. Is he a comedian, a pundit, a talk show house, a liberal icon? All of those things, obviously, but therein lies the problem.
> 
> ...



Maher's in more of a grey zone because he's a comedian. He's not supposed to be taken seriously, yet at the same time he and Stewart and Colbert have all ventured into more serious waters many a time. 

I agree, he should get rid of anything misogynistic in his act. But as for belittling religion I say keep going, that's the funniest stuff. I thought Religulous was hilarious. If I want to watch a serious debate about religion I'd go do that. Well okay I wouldn't go do that because I'd prefer to just watch paint dry.

I wonder if there will ever be a republican version of Maher, Stewart, Colbert. The only republicans I've seen be funny were the one's who were doing it by accident, like Bush, Palin, Herman Cain quoting the Pokemon movie or Ann Coulter's unique blend of being part skeleton and reincarnated Hitler.

The only funny one I've seen is this dude: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOjUKwoHUyw

Apparently I've just learned he's Libertarian... oh well the search continues.


----------



## NYC Composer (Mar 11, 2012)

Why is misogyny not okay but belittling people's spiritual beliefs (just to be clear, I have none) okay? It's such cheap sport, and you nailed it the first time-he's in a grey zone.

The thing is, all these guys, Rush, Maher, Olberman, O'Reilly et al either want to be taken seriously as purveyors of correct-think, or they play at wanting it. Maher has become a liberal icon. Does that not come with some responsibility if he accepts the mantle as he seems to have?

This grey zone thing is making me a little queasy.


----------



## José Herring (Mar 11, 2012)

Both Rush and Maher are ridiculous. Maher gets away with a lot of stuff because he started out as a comedian. Not a very successful one, but well enough known that people don't take him too seriously. Rush, wants to be taken seriously. He wants to be a spiritual leader of the right cause. That being the case, the stuff he says has much more impact than some second rate funny man.


----------



## choc0thrax (Mar 11, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sun Mar 11 said:


> Why is misogyny not okay but belittling people's spiritual beliefs (just to be clear, I have none) okay? It's such cheap sport, and you nailed it the first time-he's in a grey zone.
> 
> The thing is, all these guys, Rush, Maher, Olberman, O'Reilly et al either want to be taken seriously as purveyors of correct-think, or they play at wanting it. Maher has become a liberal icon. Does that not come with some responsibility if he accepts the mantle as he seems to have?
> 
> This grey zone thing is making me a little queasy.



Started writing a long reply but just deleted it in favor of : "I don't know."

Have a deadline to meet and a sudden urge to go see The Grey.


----------



## NYC Composer (Mar 11, 2012)

josejherring @ Sun Mar 11 said:


> Both Rush and Maher are ridiculous. Maher gets away with a lot of stuff because he started out as a comedian. Not a very successful one, but well enough known that people don't take him too seriously. Rush, wants to be taken seriously. He wants to be a spiritual leader of the right cause. That being the case, the stuff he says has much more impact than some second rate funny man.



Rush certainly has a larger audience, but I think it's incorrect that Maher doesn't want to be taken seriously, I think it's quite obvious he does. If that's true and his leadership role in the liberal wing of America is to be taken seriously at all, he needs to be considered objectively.


----------



## chimuelo (Mar 11, 2012)

Perhaps this deflection by both fake parties was to make we sure we talk about them instead of the failed attempt to force Catholics into changing their beliefs.
Imagine a private Muslim school having one of our elites telling them their daughters must use cointraceptions and they must pay for it.

It's all moot at the end of the day, we already control lesser bred woman by having them stop by Margeret Sangers house........sorry.....I meant " Planned Single Parenthood."..................ooops.............I mean Planned Parenthood.

Thankfully there's only 7 more months of listening these script reading Pole Dancers shuck and jive their way into office.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 11, 2012)

Larry, do you see any relevance to the fact that Bill Maher's IQ is about three times as high as Rush Limbaugh's (as well as being about 14 times as high as the collective IQ of his audience)?


I thought Religulous was very funny, by the way. Stop being such a prude!


----------



## NYC Composer (Mar 11, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Mar 11 said:


> Larry, do you see any relevance to the fact that Bill Maher's IQ is about three times as high as Rush Limbaugh's (as well as being about 14 times as high as the collective IQ of his audience)?
> 
> 
> I thought Religulous was very funny, by the way. Stop being such a prude!



I don't know if the IQ comparison is accurate, but regardless-it has no relevance if he continues to emit sexist and intolerant screeds, which was the point of this thread. I'm not a prude, Nick, and if we're going to call people on the way they see things, maybe you ought to walk the walk regardless of which side of the fence these demeaning points of view come from...and btw-where have you answered my point that it's not okay to call women c*nts any more than it is to call them sluts? It makes me a prude to say that Maher differentiates between males and females in the language he uses? Hmm.

Was Religulous only meant comedically, or was it a statement? Interestingly, to your point about intelligence- the thing that made it unfunny to me was that it WASN'T intelligent. It used sniggering humor and easy targets to reach the lowest common denominator, rather than using intelligence and reason to skewer religious hypocrites.

You've demonstrated once again why I simply can't align myself with one all-encompassing point of view. Doing so seems to remove any objectivity and analysis that doesn't go the way of one's chosen side.

I'll say it once more-Maher has crossed over into a grey area. If he were just a standup comedian and had no aspirations beyond that, he could say whateverthefck he wanted and I'd have no issue whatsoever.That's simply not the case anymore.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 11, 2012)

I think both of them should be able to say whatever the hell they want. What bothers me is that there are so many stupid people who like to listen to Rush Limbaugh, who is the epitome of a stupid pig.

But not only am I a fan of Bill Maher's, I agree with him that Sarah Palin is a twat (which I believe is what he called her, although I'd be perfectly fine with him calling her a C U Next Tuesday too).

My reaction to Rush Limbaugh:

1. Why on earth would anyone give a flying hoot what that stupid asshole says?!

2. This is a massive distraction conjured up by the Republicans because the job numbers are better (sort of a rational variation of what Chim says  ).

The only thing moderating my opinion is that I agree with what my wife said: how would I feel if he'd said that about my daughter - which is actually what Obama felt too.

Meanwhile we have been punked into talking about stupid stuff while Rome is burning.


----------



## José Herring (Mar 11, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sun Mar 11 said:


> josejherring @ Sun Mar 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Both Rush and Maher are ridiculous. Maher gets away with a lot of stuff because he started out as a comedian. Not a very successful one, but well enough known that people don't take him too seriously. Rush, wants to be taken seriously. He wants to be a spiritual leader of the right cause. That being the case, the stuff he says has much more impact than some second rate funny man.
> ...



Maybe its me that doesn't take him seriously then. I just remember the days when he was just a mediocre comedian, and I always thought that him becoming political was just a good shtick.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 11, 2012)

Bill Maher is very bright, articulate, well-informed, and quick. I do take him seriously, and the comparison to stupid Rush Limbaugh is absurd.

And I don't think he's a mediocre comedian at all. Any comedian who can make me laugh is not mediocre.


----------



## NYC Composer (Mar 11, 2012)

Ask your wife and your daughter if they feel marginalized as females when, rather than focusing on their fitness for office or their views, Bill Maher resorts to epithets like "twat", "bimbo" and "c*nt" to describe Michelle Bachmann, Sarah Palin and other women he disagrees with. My uber-liberal, former director of a multinational corporation wife certainly does, and has many horror stories from the glass ceiling to back her feelings up, most of which I've been privy to over 30 years.

Ask your wife how she would feel if it should happen that your unfortunately pregnant teenage daughter was raked over the coals in the national media as a joke fit for talk show amusement. 

You are missing the misogynistic forest for the factionalized trees, and I find it sad, because I agree with you so often and respect your intelligence.
Your insinuation that I'm a prig because I don't go along with the cute guy- gag is short-sighted and obtuse.


----------



## NYC Composer (Mar 11, 2012)

I don't think Bill Maher is a mediocre comedian. I think he's very funny. I also think he's bright and quick, which is why I enjoy his show and refuse to rubber stamp everything he does in a mindless show of support for crappy behavior simply because I share his views on other things.


----------



## José Herring (Mar 11, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Mar 11 said:


> Bill Maher is very bright, articulate, well-informed, and quick. I do take him seriously, and the comparison to stupid Rush Limbaugh is absurd.
> 
> And I don't think he's a mediocre comedian at all. Any comedian who can make me laugh is not mediocre.



He's a pot smokin' opinionated hippie. Rush lambaugh is a pill poppin' opinionated blow hard. They're both just stupid drug addicts.


----------



## chimuelo (Mar 11, 2012)

They are also both a part of the same hypocracy.
Without the supposed " left " and " right " they would be out of business.
Same with the hate peddlers who keep their plantations growing using hate and fear such as elites like Qacksine Waters, the family values Reverend Jesse Jackson. The GOP family values guys that pay off stippers for silence and fly to see their soulmates in S.America.

They are a direct reflection of Wall Street and DC Cronyism and faslehoods.
Be glad we are represented and brainwashed by the best liars and propagandists in the Planet. Many of us know better, but the rest of the world is still in schock and haven't had their wool fleeced.
But we grew up watching the benefits of using race, lies and divisive tactics at home and in our wars.
Its our nature, even though many if us are numb as we have seen this show every 4 years nationally and every 2 years locally.

Boy if we could just be like China for one day......This is what every Politican says to himself as he fixes his hair before shaking hands smiling collecting cash and lying...

God Bless America.... =o


----------



## midphase (Mar 12, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sun Mar 11 said:


> Ask your wife and your daughter if they feel marginalized as females when, rather than focusing on their fitness for office or their views, Bill Maher resorts to epithets like "twat", "bimbo" and "c*nt" to describe Michelle Bachmann, Sarah Palin and other women he disagrees with. My uber-liberal, former director of a multinational corporation wife certainly does, and has many horror stories from the glass ceiling to back her feelings up, most of which I've been privy to over 30 years.
> 
> Ask your wife how she would feel if it should happen that your unfortunately pregnant teenage daughter was raked over the coals in the national media as a joke fit for talk show amusement.




I think the point you're failing to recognize is that your wife doesn't go around passing judgement on other people's moral standings, trying to impose her religious belief on others and trying to alter the law to fit her personal view of what moral standards she views as right.

Bill Maher doesn't call women names if he disagrees with them. You paint him as someone who does this constantly, but it's not an accurate portrayal. Having listened "religious" to Bill Maher's show for the past 4 years, I can tell you that the only times he insults any political or religious figure is when such person has spewed hatred and intolerance in the media nonstop. Palin, Bachman, Culter, Santorum, and the list goes on and on and on...these people are insane in the hatred that they spew on a regular basis. They deserve to be insulted because they have made it a point to insult everyone else and use their political clout as a platform to impose their self righteous beliefs onto others.

I am disgusted with the way the right has become, and I am even more disgusted with their assertion that liberals do the same thing...it is absolutely not true. Bill Maher, Jon Stewart, Rachel Maddow treat their guests with dignity and respect, and don't interrupt like Bill O'Reilly constantly did to President Obama.

And Jose...you're wrong dude, saying that Maher and Limbaugh are both stupid drug addicts is as shallow of an evaluation as you can possibly make.

Lastly, belittling people's spiritual beliefs is a response to religion imposing views which are not shared by everyone on the country (planet). Some of us don't believe that life begins at conception, some of us don't believe that one should only have sex in order to procreate, much less with someone of the opposite sex. Some of us don't believe that evolution and intelligent design are equivalent, nor that they should be equally taught in school...or that prayer should be part of public education. If religious groups would just leave everybody alone to decide their own path in life, there would be no belittling necessary.


----------



## NYC Composer (Mar 12, 2012)

midphase @ Mon Mar 12 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sun Mar 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Ask your wife and your daughter if they feel marginalized as females when, rather than focusing on their fitness for office or their views, Bill Maher resorts to epithets like "twat", "bimbo" and "c*nt" to describe Michelle Bachmann, Sarah Palin and other women he disagrees with. My uber-liberal, former director of a multinational corporation wife certainly does, and has many horror stories from the glass ceiling to back her feelings up, most of which I've been privy to over 30 years.
> ...



So your contention is that the liberal end of the political spectrum has a perfect right, more, a NEED- to use sexist language towards women and derogatory terms for people who hold a faith that they don't share because they are right and good while the others are bad and evil-and all of that's necessary to make the point that needs to be made about that rectitude. I see. Interesting viewpoint, but one I don't share for reasons already stated. 

In simple terms-it's not okay. It's not okay for Limbaugh, it's not okay for Maher. It's not okay, period, to call a woman you disagree with, however violently, a slut or a c*nt. Call her an idiot, sure. Call her uneducated, well, okay, if the shoe fits. Go to the misogynistic rhetoric, not okay-and the last thing a "progressive" should be doing.


----------



## chimuelo (Mar 12, 2012)

Never thought I'd hear someone speak the truth about the all caring humane tolerant Left....... =o 

If this administration can't use their Wall Street and Banking buddies they purchased with our stimulus money to help bring the prices down at the pumps, they are history, it's that easy, as middle America doesn't believe either of these groups of actors and actresses, they believe in whats real, like the safety of their children, the price of goods and services which rise according to the prices at the pump.
Until then these name calling distractions and other staged events will keep the demand for popcorn high..... o[])

I totally agree with you Larry as you obviously have children, and I for one will not tolerate hate peddling, racisim, and women bashing by anyone, much less these overpaid 1%'r's who need ratings for more cash.

And Rush did screw the Pooch, but Maher Phucked the Dawg and sold the Puppies........


----------



## NYC Composer (Mar 12, 2012)

Chim, in all honesty I don't believe there is any real equivalency. It seems to me that the current Republican Party wants to move women's rights back to the Stone Age, or at the very least, back to the '50s. However, it pains me to watch progressives defend sexism or racism from any source, and it reinforces my thought that the minute one picks a side, objectivity gets checked at the door.

I know people from Air America, the first (to my knowledge) fulltime liberal talk radio station, which really started to defeat George Bush. Rachel Maddow came out of there, and Al Franken launched his political campaign from there also. I'm somewhat interested watching Maddow not take on Maher's sexism, but I guess if you're on the side of the angels often enough, you get judged by a different standard.

The struggle for women's rights has been hard and long, and Conservatives are trying to roll them back with their relentlessly hypocritical 'family values' nonsense. I don't think Bill Maher, now a progressive icon, should be helping them. I watch his show every week. Last week he finally started sounding a little tiny bit abashed. He hates the idea that he might be perceived as sexist. I went back and watched a lot of clips-sorry, he is. It might be the only thing Ann Coulter and I have ever agreed on (although she called him a misogynist, and I'm not quite sure about that).


----------



## José Herring (Mar 12, 2012)

midphase @ Sun Mar 11 said:


> And Jose...you're wrong dude, saying that Maher and Limbaugh are both stupid drug addicts is as shallow of an evaluation as you can possibly make.



I hear what you're saying. But, they both remind of the crack heads that use to live in my neighborhood in NY. Same manner of speech. Same "political" concerns. Both lefties and righties. And, they're both drug addicts. Maybe not stupid. But certainly they both have an addict's personality. 

I calls them as I sees them. I don't trust the opinion of either of them. But, then again, why would you want your opinion dictated to you anyway? Especially by some crack heads.

And look at Maher. He admits to smoking pot everyday. What he doesn't admit to is that he's also a regular heroin user. I recognized that look on anybody. He aint' foolin' me. And Limbaugh. He's still downing the painkillers. The look is in the eyes and in the skin. Vitamin b deficient white pasty skin. Why anybody takes these guys seriously is beyond me. Both these guys are seriously flawed human beings. Both these guys would stab you in the back if it meant they could get the next fix or next dollar at your expense.

I use to listen to Maher back in the Day. 10 years ago he was much better than he is now. Now he spews the same amount of hatred that Rush does just on a different side. Before, back when he use to have Christine O'Donnell on, and other conservatives like Ann Coulture he could disagree with them but he always treated them with dignity and respect. As he should, these women are fine people. They really are. They may have very narrow views of the world based on religion but if you really heard what they're saying they're not bad people. And, back then he would recognized that. Now he just ridicules and insults them. Tore poor Christine O'Donnell apart at the seems when she ran for office. I thought that was totally uncool. She isn't some evil person, not by a long shot.

An addict is an addict. Smart, living on the streets, rich. Doesn't matter. Can't be trusted. Shouldn't be listened to. All addicts develop a deep seeded fear and mistrust of the environment they live in. May take some time, but it happens sure enough. Maher is no exception. He feeds the left's fear just as much as Rush feeds the right's fear. Both of these viewpoints will never lead to any political truth. Only discord.

Fear rules the day. Politicians know that and they feed the fear. Its no wonder we're all ready to kill each other. But we shouldn't fear each other really. I've hung, believe it or not, with the most right wing, neo-nazi, skin head m'fers before, and I found that most of them aren't that bad. Confused, but I'd say beside 1 or 2 really hardcore m'fers that most just aren't that evil. Hung for a bit with one guy that just got out of prison. Had Swastikas and "white power" tatooed to his chest. Real bad ass, right? No, after a few weeks around me, he went to a tatoo parlor, painfully got all his tats removed. Said that all that was a mistake, and every time he sees me goes out of his way to be as nice as he could possibly be.

I've only learned that hate leads to more hate. And that whether that hate comes from people who I agree with more or less politically or people I don't agree with, that doesn't matter. Hate is hate. In the end, it leads to no good.

So Maher can go around hating Santorum and Rush can go around hating women. Doesn't matter what you hate. As soon as you start hating, you've gone insane. Not only that you keep in power that which you hate.
_
Hatred does not cease by hatred, but only by love; this is the eternal rule.._ _The Buddha_


----------



## NYC Composer (Mar 12, 2012)

Really, Jose, you have x-ray vision that allows you to spot heroin addicts through the tube?? Man. That's...powerful.

I don't think Ann Coulter is a good person at all-or at least the character she plays known as "Ann Coulter" is certainly not my idea of a good person. I think she's a brazen opportunist who probably sells more books to people who detest her theoretical views(I'm not sure she believes any of it) than to people who agree with them. Every heinous remark she makes in the media sells another 1000 books to outraged liberals-it's hilarious.

Btw, how does any of this speak to whether Bill Maher has crossed into a grey area between punditry and comedy, or whether he issues sexist remarks, etc?


----------



## choc0thrax (Mar 12, 2012)

josejherring @ Mon Mar 12 said:


> As soon as you start hating, you've gone insane.



But hate is in all of us. Should I buy stock in straightjacket manufacturers?


----------



## NYC Composer (Mar 12, 2012)

choc0thrax @ Mon Mar 12 said:


> josejherring @ Mon Mar 12 said:
> 
> 
> > As soon as you start hating, you've gone insane.
> ...



Arms manufacturers and church construction companies, both growth industries.


----------



## chimuelo (Mar 12, 2012)

Hatred does not cease by hatred, but only by love, this is the eternal rule.. The Buddha...............This is the word.

These " Conservatives " we see Pow Wowwing around these false prophets of the right are not representative of the People I know and associate with.
We have children, we despise the divisive non existant race hate peddlers, and especially those on both sides who seem to think they know whats best for us.
They are 2 false groups, that dance for the same master, with wrong ideas at every turn. Crony Capitalism/Fascism/Corporatism started with Greenspan under Clintons tenure. It has grown into this massive machine thats sole purpose is the status quo.

Please name one thing that Government has done for the people other than throw money at them to shut their mouths and buy their votes.
Big Unions, Big Corporations, Big Banks and big politicians are what we have seen grow over the last decade, even though these 2 " parties " claim they are different.

I no longer listen to the scripts, but rather what they agree on, and who has gained enormous wealth while we stagnate.

I consider myself a progressive betrayed by fascists.
I am conservative by nature because I alone am responsible for my family, not some hate peddling POS from DC trying to give me more candy.

And Maher and Limbaugh represent themselves, nothing more.
Although I hear Limnbaugh donates to several charirites for servicemen and women, and local Cathoclic servies.
Maher on the other hand donates to the Obama campaign, and his fine young girlfriend who I think looks like a foxy version of Palin.
Perhaps he is bashing her indirectly while thinking of his girlfriend out banging some stud and spending his weed money...

Often people hate what's in their house the most.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 12, 2012)

Larry, do you also think Bill Maher shouldn't have said that John Huntsman can suck his cock a few weeks ago? Was that anti-gay?

Or maybe Howard Stern shouldn't pull the stunts he pulls with strippers and porno actresses every day? Or going back, George Carlin and Richard Pryor...and Lenny Bruce...all those people shouldn't have said what they said?

Maybe it's because I don't find his latest remark any more offensive than anything else stupid Rush Limbaugh says, but I find this whole huffy piling on routine to be much ado about nothing. It reminds me of the total outrage over Bobby Knight throwing the chair back in the '80s. Yeah it was ridiculous, but was it out of character? Was I really supposed to be totally outraged?

Assad's security forces torturing and killing people, US soldiers going insane and killing 16 civilians under the strain of being surrounded by constant insanity (which makes one wonder how many other things happen that we don't hear about)...that is worthy of my outrage. In fact, go to the NY Times home page on any given day and you're guaranteed to find lots of things to get outraged at - hopefully not always as bad as what's going on in Syria and Afghanistan, but still worthy of concern.

Rush f-ing Limbaugh is not worth bothering with. He's a stupid asshole and I couldn't care less what he says. It's all too easy; our buttons are being pushed and we're being manipulated.


----------



## José Herring (Mar 12, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Mon Mar 12 said:


> choc0thrax @ Mon Mar 12 said:
> 
> 
> > josejherring @ Mon Mar 12 said:
> ...



Never let your personal beliefs get in the way of a good investment. Ask yourself, "what would Mitt Romney do?". :lol:


----------



## kgdrum (Mar 12, 2012)

I'll judge these guys on their statements,political views, level of honesty/integrity.
Do I care if they smoke weed or have substance abuse habits?
Not really,some great people in all fields like to unwind recreationally, some of the greatest minds and or musical talents over the years have indulged,saying this negates their contributions is narrow minded and too simplistic IMO.
Saying you know someone is a junkie from his look on TV is irresponsible and I think bordering on ignorant.
If you don't like someones body of work why can't they be judged by that alone?
I respect anyone who creates their own niche & creates their unique "brand". 
Whether it's my cup of tea is another issue.
There's lots of boring people in this world who contribute nothing to society,don't instigate change or open dialogues of any importance,do I applaud them because they don't indulge in having a drink, smoking a joint or taking a Vicodin ?
I think you should look at the body of work not the personal indulgences of any public figure, unless it's causing someone else personal harm.


----------



## NYC Composer (Mar 12, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Mar 12 said:


> Larry, do you also think Bill Maher shouldn't have said that John Huntsman can suck his cock a few weeks ago? Was that anti-gay?
> 
> Or maybe Howard Stern shouldn't pull the stunts he pulls with strippers and porno actresses every day? Or going back, George Carlin and Richard Pryor...and Lenny Bruce...all those people shouldn't have said what they said?
> 
> ...



Well Nick, though it seems you rarely address my points directly these days nor answer my direct questions except with your own, I'll try to respond in order:

1. No, I didn't think the comment about Hunstman was anti-gay, more, I thought it was alpha posturing, which I don't particularly mind. His comments about Bachmann's husband being so effeminate made me a little queasy, actually-but that's the nature of war, isn't it? You use what you have to ridicule the opposition as they do it to you.

2. if you're seriously trying to draw a parallel between Howard Stern, completely unabashed sexist/adolescent (and very funny) comedian and Bill Maher, smart/funny, thoughtful provocative political pundit, you're proving my point. Lenny Bruce, Mort Sahl and Richard Pryor certainly broke new ground in political statement/comedy, and they would be worth discussing re the 'grey area'. I think George Carlin was just casting around for new ways to be funny with his grumpy old guy routine-I enjoyed him, but now we have Jack Cafferty to fill that role :roll: 

3. I prefer pro sports to college, but yeah, I don't think Bobby Knight made a good showing as a leader of young men's sports. Maybe a good drill sargeant, and certainly a winner, but a crappy role model to my way of thinking. Was I outraged when he threw a chair? No. Am I outraged with Maher's sexism? No. I'm stating something that, as a fan of Maher's and an objective human being, I'm unhappy/a little queasy about, along with the aforementioned grey area, which I think is worthy of discussion

4. I agree that the priorities for outrage that you speak of are far more worthy of it than discussions of civil discourse and fine lines, and I share your point of view. As stated previously, I'm not outraged. Read my post that began this thread and see if you can detect any outrage. 

Meanwhile, I started this thread about something else other than deeply affecting world issues. The fact that you don't find it important or worthy of discussion because it's not a visceral issue, I could understand. That you obfuscate and pretend that nothing that happens on "our" side could ever be worth a bit of looking at-that I find unfortunate.


----------



## José Herring (Mar 12, 2012)

kgdrum @ Mon Mar 12 said:


> Saying you know someone is a junkie from his look on TV is irresponsible and I think bordering on ignorant.
> .



Not when you've seen as many junkies as I have.


----------



## NYC Composer (Mar 12, 2012)

josejherring @ Mon Mar 12 said:


> kgdrum @ Mon Mar 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Saying you know someone is a junkie from his look on TV is irresponsible and I think bordering on ignorant.
> ...



I'm ceding all future junkie-detection tasks to you. :wink:


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 12, 2012)

> That you obfuscate and pretend that nothing that happens on "our" side could ever be worth a bit of looking at-that I find unfortunate.



It's not because I don't think liberals are capable of over-the-line insults that I object to this discussion, it's because of the evil conspiracy to change the subject.


Meanwhile, Michelle Bachman's husband deserves all the ridicule that gets thrown at him - not because he's a caricature of a gay person but because he makes a living from being anti-gay. That's totally fair game.

And by the way, Bill Maher apologized for his comment about Bristol Palin. I don't think it was just to save his ass either - he acknowledged that what he said was OTT.


----------



## NYC Composer (Mar 12, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Mar 12 said:


> > That you obfuscate and pretend that nothing that happens on "our" side could ever be worth a bit of looking at-that I find unfortunate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Okay, so you think I'm part of the conspiracy to change the subject?


----------



## chimuelo (Mar 12, 2012)

It's your subject, change it all you want.
Off topic is exactly that, off topic from compositional technique, computers, performance skills, so in an off topic area, knowing many of us here are musicians and improvise, of course it will go in several directions.
These guys are actually as boring as the GOP Debates, so I like the way Jose can spot a junkie, that's from seeing so many.
Smart junklies like popular performers I have worked with or opposite of have incredible make up artists that travel with them.
You'd think Rush and Maher might break down and spend a buck or 2 since their Caspery appearance and random outburts are indicitive.

Do Talk Show Hosts have Talk Show Host Assitants....?
Maybe they could help, and then there could be the Assistant to the Assistant who fetches the dope for the junkies in case they can't quite get through a 30 minute taping.....


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 12, 2012)

> ]Okay, so you think I'm part of the conspiracy to change the subject?



No, I think you're one of its victims.


----------



## midphase (Mar 12, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sun Mar 11 said:


> It's not okay, period, to call a woman you disagree with, however violently, a slut or a c*nt. Call her an idiot, sure. Call her uneducated, well, okay, if the shoe fits. Go to the misogynistic rhetoric, not okay-and the last thing a "progressive" should be doing.




Could you please point me to when Maher used the word cunt in reference to Bachman or Palin? As an avid listener of his show I can't remember him ever using that specific word (although he does use other language to express his lack of enthusiasm for right wing nut jobs.)

Also...it would seem to me that #3 definitely applies as a proper definition of both Palin and Bachman

World English Dictionary
cunt (kʌnt) 
— n
1.	the female genitals
2.	offensive , slang a woman considered sexually
3.	offensive , slang a mean or obnoxious person


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 12, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGE3G5kfzps&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGE3G5kf ... r_embedded)

He called her a dumb twat.

And I'd be totally offended if it weren't true.


----------



## NYC Composer (Mar 12, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Mar 12 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGE3G5kfzps&feature=player_embedded
> 
> He called her a dumb twat.
> 
> And I'd be totally offended if it weren't true.



Right, she's not a moron, or an imbecile. She's a twat. He only called her a cunt in his standup act.


----------



## NYC Composer (Mar 12, 2012)

A slightly confused but balanced portrayal of a lot of women's feelings:

http://www.politicususa.com/how-sarah-p ... -misogyny/

btw, Nick, did you ever ask your wife and daughter my question?


----------



## chimuelo (Mar 12, 2012)

Sad that children see a woman that inspires them as a role model, and then watch her get torn to pieces in the media or newspapers by the adults that try and tell them what's right and wrong, left and right.
My little tomboy next door neighbor grew up playing army with us and wearing her daddys motorcycle helmet as she saw the first female Russian Astronaut and it inspired her.
Now you get a strong woman like Hillary Clinton and she gets shredded by her new boss, and called a racsist, etc. Same with Palin, as many young gals saw this crazy chick that tore down the Alaskan GOP and forced one of the worlds largest corporations to pay every person that resides in Alaska a check for taking thier resources. What a heroic woman, you'd think a Liberal would love a woman that brought down the corrupt GOP and Corporation. Instead they fear her. Then tear her family to pieces. Then a fake " journalist " moves in next door to her and her family and takes pictures of everyone and what they do.
I dont share the same beliefs as she does but she succeeds in exposing the hypocrits and haters. For that, she is most useful. Some Liberal politician from Connecticutt made a harsh remark about her " retarded " child in the Oval Office and was forced to apologize, and the people actually got rid of of the fool for exploding in such a harsh, hateful way.

So while this is all a distraction from the fact that Gas is killing the consumer, and the Catholic Services were being forced to go against their beliefs, the sideshow was disgusting.
But I believe in free speech and want these camera kissers to keep spewing their hatred.
I'd rather know who the haters and harmful members of our society are.
Louis Farakhan, Bill Maher, Rush and other haters should be left alone, otherwise who are we going to know is truly infected by this left/right never ending division that benefits the slave owners and 1%r's that " represent " us.


----------



## George Caplan (Mar 13, 2012)

choc0thrax @ Mon Mar 12 said:


> Should I buy stock in straightjacket manufacturers?



not this second but give it around 8 months.


----------



## NYC Composer (Mar 13, 2012)

I believe in free speech too-I've never advocated shutting anyone down. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't hold those we admire to a high standard. Without that, we're all shamelessly inculcated homers and partisans who can't be taken seriously in any objective sense.

As to Palin-in the long run, the largest and most compelling reason to take her down is still valid-she was NOT READY. The fact that I find many of her views repulsive notwithstanding, she was not prepared to be President in any way, and she would have been next in succession, which even scared some Republicans, I think. That said, there are other ways to take someone down than sexist jargon that marginalizes all women.


----------



## chimuelo (Mar 13, 2012)

What does not ready mean...? As if Obama was READY...? No experience at all, and he has done a great job at killing our enemies and taking care of his Bosses. 
I never had a President do anything for me personally, but being exempted from that pathetic Health Care Plan was the most important thing that ever happened to me.
I had 5.00 USD per hour taken from my payroll over a period of 30+ years and was not looking forward to standing in lines behind 30 million more people and fewer doctors. We even have unlimited Dental now too.
All of this from a man with ZERO experience.
So maybe that's the key.

Palin would have been just another advised mouthpiece with stereo telepromters, taking orders from the money that purchased her way into DC. The only difference is I wouldn't have recieved such favorable returns, so I am glad she lost.
But the fact that she took down the corrupt GOP and their corporation, then re directed those profits to the citizens of the State she served, is what I call spreading the wealth. Anyone can take tax payer dollars, that's not even a challenge. Knocking off an Oil company,.....That's quite an achievement, we had BP and their big spill, but it's OK, Obama asked for an " experienced " Bush appointee to arbitrate.

Has Warren Buffet offered up his Billions yet, or what about Obamas bros at Goldman Sachs...? They hit 13000+ today, those evil CEO 1%'r's.
I guess to really spread the wealth around old Warren must have a law passed, as I see no reason to tell everyone else to chip in while he buys 5 billion USD stock in BOA on an insiders tip.

It's the boys club though, and there's no doubt about that. Do we ever get to vote for the Federal Reserve members...? Nope. And even the President has no power to decide that, but he can assign the Head Of Treasury. There isn't one women over there.
All powerful 1%'r CEOs from Goldman Sachs with Cuban Cigars. 

We can't even have a single arrest on Wall Street for what happened, that fact alone shows collusion on the highest levels.

I even remember the Senator from Alaska that Palin destroyed went to a Kangaroo Court where the Federal Prosecuter had a 100% Conviction rate, but somehow forgot to share discovery during this " Senators " hearing and he walked free.
Yeah there's your people who are READY....

I actually think the First Lady has done more than anyone else in DC has this year. Her " actions " in the way we feed kids in school, and excercise shows more leadership than any GOP or DNC mouthpiece.
Personally my son is 6'3" and weighs 175 lbs.
He eats properly becasue I taught him, and I make his lunch everyday too, but I am odd that way.
When I see kids being happy and healthy, it's so rewarding.
So IMHO she through her action has done more than any of these over paid camera kissers.


----------



## NYC Composer (Mar 13, 2012)

I agree with you that Obama had little experience. You could argue that it was too little for the office, certainly. Comparing his knowledge of the world and Ms Palin's, as was aptly demonstrated during her unfortunate vetting in the media, is not realistic.

I know you're all into this "elites" thing and all, but I'm sorry-I'll take the constitutional law professor. Color me elitist. The idea that she might very well have become President scared the bejeezus outa me.


----------



## chimuelo (Mar 13, 2012)

I voted for Obama and will do it again because he does what Trumka wants, which benefits me.
My beef with this whole shell game is we get choices like Gore, Kerry, Bush, Obama, McCain, Palin and John Edwards. These are hardly choices and the game is rigged during the primaries, as only a small percentage of people show up, yet somehow the investors control the end results.

For example S. Edelson isn't throwing millions away on Gingrich, he is trying to ensure that Gingrich and Santorum slug it out for months while Romney gains the necessary delegates, which will really determine who wins. It also keeps the other side without a target. I wish I had 15 million to throw away like that. But it's that very money that controls the game, always has been and always will.

The debt is meant to scare us, and it should, but they don't tell you about the back door deals we make with China by giving them their own US Ports, or thousands of Barges of Coal, or the mining rights of Lithium in Afghanistan. I can't figure out the details, but the facts remain that the NSGS confirmed the estimated value is currently 1 trillion, but I would multiply that by 10. It's the very same enviroment you see other large lithium deposits like Bolivia. But we have allowed the Chinese this great gift after thousands of our kids were targets there for years.

But this is good business, and it helps me understand why these trillions of dollars are allowed to be racked up, and why the Senate doesn't bother wasting time passing a budget.

So I am left with the best person for domestic affairs, and I don't see a former CEO as a wise choice. But Obamas handlers really need to redo our infrastructure, and this means shrinking the size of the entitlements, not cutting them. You fix that problem with jobs here at home. 

I already know who is going to win, so you won't see me wasting time watching these liars pretending to be for the Middle Class or Peace in the world, etc.


----------



## George Caplan (Mar 14, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Tue Mar 13 said:


> I agree with you that Obama had little experience. You could argue that it was too little for the office, certainly.



you certainly could. now hes got that vacuous guy over here from the uk talking about afghanistan with him. those two on that subject. thats a laugh. :lol:


----------



## NYC Composer (Mar 14, 2012)

and you know this how, George? Do you have some specialized military knowledge you could share with us?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 14, 2012)

"that vacuous guy over here from the uk"

We agree about that at least!


----------



## midphase (Mar 15, 2012)

In Maher's own words:

Maher took aim at the "false equivalancey" of the conservative comparison between his stand-up routine and Limbaugh's remarks on the air, arguing:
"[Rush Limbaugh] went after a civilian about very specific behavior, that was a lie, speaking for party that has systematically gone after women’s rights all year, on the public airwaves. I used a rude word about a public figure who gives as good as she gets, who’s called people “terrorist” and “unAmerican.” Sarah Barracuda. The First Amendment was specifically designed for citizens to insult politicians. Libel laws were written to protect law students speaking out on political issues from getting called whores by Oxycontin addicts."


----------



## NYC Composer (Mar 15, 2012)

midphase @ Thu Mar 15 said:


> In Maher's own words:
> 
> Maher took aim at the "false equivalancey" of the conservative comparison between his stand-up routine and Limbaugh's remarks on the air, arguing:
> "[Rush Limbaugh] went after a civilian about very specific behavior, that was a lie, speaking for party that has systematically gone after women’s rights all year, on the public airwaves. I used a rude word about a public figure who gives as good as she gets, who’s called people “terrorist” and “unAmerican.” Sarah Barracuda. The First Amendment was specifically designed for citizens to insult politicians. Libel laws were written to protect law students speaking out on political issues from getting called whores by Oxycontin addicts."



That's all clever, but doesn't speak to the issue. It's not insulting her that's at issue. I agree that as a politician she's, as he says, "fair game" . On the other hand, I don't ever remember him ridiculing a male politician's family to the same degree, nor suggest that part of their airheadedness had to do with their gender, as the words "bimbo", "slut", "twat", "cunt", etc do.


----------



## spectrum (Mar 15, 2012)

o[])


----------



## chimuelo (Mar 15, 2012)

I say let Palin beat the crap out of Maher. I am quite sure she could do that.
These are the real political fights I would like to see.
Similar to Paula Jones and that Bushwacker Tonya Harding.....
I see Maher as the Puto that he is being beaten decisively by a woman.
Now that's gotta boost ratings.
Even her daughters could whoop that Bone rack...

Rush, wow, it would be great to see Janeane Garafolo dance around him and poke him in his fat belly.
Have special Fart like effects for everytime she scored. When his fat arms get tired of trying to block her strikes she can start those head slaps with more 3 Stooges style effects over the speakers.

Otherwise these clowns never have anything really fresh other than the boring right versus the left crap, that only appeals to those who actually think this whole staged event by Anita Dunn is a real life situation.

These are the folks who represent us around the world, be proud, we have the best rigged game, and finest wealthiest liars on the Planet.
They even have people fooled into thinking they dont participate in Wall Street scams.

I want WWF style fights, front rolling dick ear jabs, etc. I mean we are adults and also know that's phony just like the script readers in DC.
I'd pay 100s to see such comedy...


----------



## Mike Marino (Mar 15, 2012)

> Sounds a bit like, "Shut up about your faith or else I will belittle what's important to you"
> 
> Intelligent tolerance? Hmmm....



So now we're calling her out about her faith instead of her abilities (or lack thereof) to be "presidential?" I'm not sure what's intelligent about that.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 15, 2012)

> Sounds a bit like, "Shut up about your faith or else I will belittle what's important to you"
> 
> Intelligent tolerance? Hmmm....



I'll let Kays answer that point, but I see what's happening as something totally different, Eric.

This whole episode - I mean the whole absurd distraction about birth control and so on - has *nothing* to do with faith. It has to do with our political system having been turned into a mockery of democracy, in which vast sums of money are spent spreading propaganda. It's totally cynical; peoples' buttons are being pushed in order to sway public opinion to one side.

And to me that's a perversion of religion. It has nothing to do with the underlying theology, it's just hypocritical abuse by people with an unhealthy lust for power.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 15, 2012)

While I'm off the subject...Larry, I never said what I was going to say about 'Religulous': it's precisely because the people Maher attacked were "too easy" that it was funny. A serious discussion of theism vs. atheism would not have been a comedy movie.


----------



## madbulk (Mar 15, 2012)

josejherring @ Mon Mar 12 said:


> Never let your personal beliefs get in the way of a good investment. Ask yourself, "what would Mitt Romney do?". :lol:



Indeed. Last I checked you couldn't have done better with any S&P500 company in the past five or six decades than with Philip Morris.


----------



## NYC Composer (Mar 15, 2012)

Ever watch Maher's show, Chim? It's pretty intelligent and quite entertaining. I agree with him on most things.

My only issues with him revolve around the two things I've mentioned, which inculcated people seem to be in denial about-sexism and the ridiculing of all spiritual faith and people of faith...which is interesting, as I have no spiritual faith at all-so it's not like I have a dog in the fight.


----------



## madbulk (Mar 15, 2012)

I have little to contribute here -- what else is new? -- beyond what Larry has said.

1. Gray area, check.
2. Would be a good thing to hold the guys on your side (for 99% of us, that's the left) to a higher standard.
3. Be a gentleman. (and if you're a standup, and you are gonna overstep, be damned sure it's extremely funny before you use those words.)

I liked most of these guys a lot more 20 years ago than now.


----------



## NYC Composer (Mar 15, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Mar 15 said:


> While I'm off the subject...Larry, I never said what I was going to say about 'Religulous': it's precisely because the people Maher attacked were "too easy" that it was funny. A serious discussion of theism vs. atheism would not have been a comedy movie.



That's a fair point, Nick.


----------



## spectrum (Mar 15, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Mar 15 said:


> This whole episode - I mean the whole absurd distraction about birth control and so on - has *nothing* to do with faith. It has to do with our political system having been turned into a mockery of democracy, in which vast sums of money are spent spreading propaganda. It's totally cynical; peoples' buttons are being pushed in order to sway public opinion to one side. And to me that's a perversion of religion. It has nothing to do with the underlying theology, it's just cynical, hypocritical abuse by people with an unhealthy lust for power.


I certainly agree with you with how broken things are now.

My comments were not about all the political stuff, but rather about Maher's broadband attacks on all people of faith. In his world, it's impossible for someone to be intelligent, thoughtful and devout at the same time. That's something I really disagree with.

I think there's great value in showing basic respect for different beliefs. 

The descent into the levels of disrespect and junior high-style name calling on all sides is sad and not something worth defending. I'm glad this issue has come up finally with Rush's clear crossing of the line and is starting to be discussed on all sides.

It's super easy to get laughs by being crude, the same as it was when I was 13.

But being ultra-crude is more often just being lazy than smart.


----------



## NYC Composer (Mar 15, 2012)

Rush has crossed the line in _so_ many ways. This is not a recent development, it's just a tad more egregious than usual. Perhaps he's desperate for ratings. 

I hold out hope that one day, Americans will find all this lowbrow clowning, shouting and vituperation less entertaining.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 15, 2012)

> My comments were not about all the political stuff, but rather about Maher's broadband attacks on all people of faith. In his world, it's impossible for someone to be intelligent, thoughtful and devout at the same time. That's something I really disagree with.



I'm not sure that's quite it, Eric. Sure he thinks religion is a bunch of mythology, but that attitude doesn't extend to the way he views people on his panels. He doesn't attack all people of faith, just some of them (and the faith). 

And moving back to politics, I'm sorry, but the discourse from the American right has become so stupid and cynical that in my opinion crude humor is totally appropriate most of the time. Respecting rational points of view is one thing, but that's not what we're seeing in today's political rhetoric.

[Edit: FWIW that's also something I really disagree with (that faith and intelligence can't go together). I've said many times that there's a wide range of sophistication about people's religion/faith.]


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 15, 2012)

Warning: the following link from two years ago is not for children or those offended by all the stuff we're talking about in this thread.

http://vimeo.com/10508304

That is totally filthy, crude, intolerant, divisive, low-brow, vituperative, intelligent, beyond hilarious...and it's exactly why I'm a fan of Bill Maher. He's absolutely right on every account.


----------



## NYC Composer (Mar 15, 2012)

If I wasn't a prude and easily offended, I'd definitely check out that link!

:wink:


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 15, 2012)

You probably saw it at the time, but it's worth re-posting. It's the Bill Maher New Rules segment from when the Tiger Woods circus was going on.


----------



## midphase (Mar 15, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Mar 15 said:


> > Sounds a bit like, "Shut up about your faith or else I will belittle what's important to you"
> >
> > Intelligent tolerance? Hmmm....
> 
> ...



Who said that? Thank you, I'll take it from here Nick:


I think the idea is the following -- If you use your religious beliefs as a basis to restrict my freedoms, to poison my planet, and to tell me who I can or can't love, then I will use my voice to belittle your ignorance and superstitions.

Remember, this country is rooted in the idea of freedom of choice, not freedom from choice.

And before those "religious" groups start accusing my ilk of trying to take religion away from society...remember this: My group was the one fighting for the right of that mosque to be built downtown Manhattan while it was your group who was fighting to keep it off US soil....who is the hypocrite here?


----------



## midphase (Mar 15, 2012)

spectrum @ Thu Mar 15 said:


> My comments were not about all the political stuff, but rather about Maher's broadband attacks on all people of faith. In his world, it's impossible for someone to be intelligent, thoughtful and devout at the same time. That's something I really disagree with.




I think it depends on how you define those three terms.

For instance, how did you vote on Prop 8 in the last election? I think answering that question says tons about where you fall in the intelligent, thoughtful and devout spectrum (sorry for the pun).

Bill Maher has show an incredible amount of respect for people of faith on his show, as long as the respect is mutual and reciprocated. Using religion as a reason to restrict other people's rights is neither intelligent nor thoughtful...and as far as the devout part of that...I have to wonder WWJD?


----------



## NYC Composer (Mar 15, 2012)

midphase @ Thu Mar 15 said:


> Bill Maher has show an incredible amount of respect for people of faith on his show, as long as the respect is mutual and reciprocated.



See, this is just ridiculous. I can find ten incidents of derision for every one you can come up with that shows "incredible respect". 

Maybe we're watching different shows-or maybe you feel that anything you say, true or not, is okay because you are the shield bearer of goodness.

You could take your cue from Cornell West, who, like me, agrees with much of Maher's agenda but shakes his head when Bill goes into his rants.


----------



## chimuelo (Mar 15, 2012)

Please, Maher believes he is better than millions and acts like it by denegrading his selected targets, which are always the Evangelical Infitrators of the GOP. He never uses the hypocracy of Islam as they don't kick in cash to the GOP, so that's why you never hear him denegrading the Qur'an. Besides, Gospel singers won't hunt him down and shoot him like an angry extrem Muslim would. So no need to Sugar Coat his obvious place in Liberal Left politics.
Watch him speak to the Alabama Democrats coming up and lets see if he goes after Chriatians there, or uses the words he does on his usual Hollywood taped non improv shows...
I enjoy the bashing of all of the elites, and the other fake side of the political spectrum deserves the treatment they get. Tom Delay is a God Fearing Christian soldier but after church loves having affairs on the side and mis appropriating our tax dollars.
How is he different from the the fake left who also believes in massive spending and Government growth to insane proportions...?
There's no difference in these elites corrupt methods, and special treatment, yearly raises, etc. They all agree on the same thing for themselves, it's us they pretend to disagree on everything about, that way nothing gets done.
And if it takes 2 years to hand out Andy Sterms Health Care plan to COngress and the Senate, and then blame the poor 25 members sitting in the corner crying, there's your proof right there that nothing is suppose to get done.
Only when the boys at ClubFed give permission, do things take shape...

These supposed comedians like Maher and Limbaugh are simply Balloons using talking points to test the waters through ratings, nothing more.
If you really think these shows are spontaneous or aren't told which topics to ridicule, eventually you'll notice the patterns, and distractions.

Let's hear Maher make fun of Obama bashing Bush for high Gas Prices.............You'll be waiting a long time for that.

Both of these " comedians " are puppets and Pundints, nothing more.
Thankfully we get to see what the elites in DC are thinking about in a comical way before they do further polling and decide to put it up for a vote, but only if the ratings are extremely high and show a trend.
Unfortunately, Limbaugh has 20 million listeners, where as Maher has maybe on a great night 10% of that, he can't even sell the Showroom out at the Imperial Palace when he comes. Neither does Miller who is definately a right leaning pundint.
Jon Stewart, sells out everytime, as he bashes everyone, and is actually very funny ala improv.
Maher is funny as long as he stays on script, as I have seen him and he has lots of downtime during a perfomance.

Now if somebody here really wants to see women bashed, and the chicks with guys haircuts from N.O.W. marching around, see Andrew Dice Clay..........he is foul but sells out the largest rooms several nights in a row. Many women go to see him too, so I guess at the end of the day, more Americans despise political correctness more than anything, or his show would be cancelled....


----------



## midphase (Mar 15, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Thu Mar 15 said:


> See, this is just ridiculous. I can find ten incidents of derision for every one you can come up with that shows "incredible respect"..



I was referring to the actual guests on his show, he has never disrespected any of them. Also, back off already on the thinly veiled accusations that I don't know what I'm talking about, I do watch the show and have been an avid viewer for several years and even went to one of the tapings.

I have to wonder if it's you who is cherry picking and basing your information on google-searches. I also have to seriously wonder about your neutrality in this matter. Bill Maher deriding someone like Pat Robertson is not only completely justified, but also not the equivalent of what Rush Limbaugh does. There is so much hatred spewed out on the airwaves in the name of religion that I wish more comedians (and reporters) would call out these buffoons for what they are. 

Actually I wish that more religious leaders would speak up against extreme nut jobs like Santorum.


----------



## Mike Marino (Mar 15, 2012)

> I think the idea is the following -- If you use your religious beliefs as a basis to restrict my freedoms, to poison my planet, and to tell me who I can or can't love, then I will use my voice to belittle your ignorance and superstitions.



Which one(s) of "your" rights are religious beliefs restricting?


----------



## midphase (Mar 15, 2012)

My right to marry someone of the same gender. My right to have an abortion. My right to use contraception.

Should I go on?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 15, 2012)

> Which one(s) of "your" rights are religious beliefs restricting?



You know, the religious right (which of course is neither) is a huge voting block in this country. It consists of fundamentalist Christians with a certain agenda that has everything to do with restricting other people's rights.

I'll say it outright: I don't like them - not because of their faith but because of their stupid POLITICS. They were hugely instrumental in voting in Bush, the worst president in our history. My educated guess is that Kays is saying the same thing.

And no, of course I'm not saying bad things about all Evangelical Christians, Mormons, or any other religion. I'm saying I don't like the religious right. For example, Jimmy Carter and Bill Moyers, both of whom I admire greatly, are Evangelical.

Doonesbury's cartoons over the past couple of days have been hard-biting and right on, by the way.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 15, 2012)

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/readers ... d3dda5970c

http://opinion.latimes.com/.a/6a00d8341 ... 1dd970d-pi


----------



## NYC Composer (Mar 15, 2012)

midphase @ Thu Mar 15 said:


> NYC Composer @ Thu Mar 15 said:
> 
> 
> > See, this is just ridiculous. I can find ten incidents of derision for every one you can come up with that shows "incredible respect"..
> ...



And so do I.

Okay, I see what you're saying about guests on his show. You're right, he doesn't tend to dis them directly, although he often disses the idea of their belief in mythologies in front of them.

I'm not neutral. I have a definite liberal bias. I hope you're not trying to suggest that YOU are neutral??

I've watched Maher's show for years-rarely miss it. I've been annoyed by his semi-adolescent sexual references and his derision of spiritual beliefs for years, and that's what I based this thread on, the outcry about Limbaugh and the silence of the left towards our own. It's a "good for the goose, good for the gander" thing. You can continue to keep trying to paint me as anti-Maher, but if you've read my continuous statements that there are only two things I largely disagree with him about, it's a curious conclusion. My opinion, aptly illustrated, is that's he leans towards sexist and religiously derisive rhetoric a little too often for my comfort level. You disagree. Fine.

As to Google searches, finding religious derision would be a no-brainer if I wanted to waste the time. No need to cherry pick.

It would seem to be that you need your heros to be perfect. Not only must they not have feet of clay, they're not even allowed a toenail. Sorry-they're human. We disagree on Maher's rectitude, and I imagine we'll continue to do so...but in the same spirit that you feel the need to warn me in print to back off (right), kindly keep your bluster to yourself or I'll reach through the screen and and and..... enough silliness, hmm? Let's keep this civil-it's just discussion and debate.


----------



## chimuelo (Mar 15, 2012)

Nick's right, they're not a huge voting block, and either are the Wall Street Donors, but it's their money that wins the Primaries and purchasing of the laws we live under.

The Independants will decide since they number anywhere from 160-200 Million people. They were what removed the GOP in 2008, well that and a total lack of competant candidates. 

So these far left and far right minorities can definately provide the cash for negative ad money and purchasing some politicans in key states, but there are 25 million more people this year who have time to vote now, that probably never participated before.

These are the Americans that will choose a path forward for all of us. So who ever lies the best and promises the most will win.
From where I stand that means Obama will easily keep his seat.

Afterall he's not a Jimmy Carter, he's rather aggressive with troop deployments, and killing our enemies, and many Americans like the way he sits back and lets the media do their job of over hyping and bringing the world to its end, so he can come in and act like there's no big deal, and ensure us no war or Pipeline will take place until after the election... o-[][]-o 

From where I stand the Catholics got a little over reactive to this whole stupid law as any women who want contraception can get it for 9-12 dollars a month right now, no mandates needed, no names need to be given as if the Government is interested in how many times you have sex.
As long as Obama can keep attaching organized religion to the GOP, the easier his win in Novemember will be.

These vast numbers of Independants do not care about gay marriage, they don't concern themselves with Planned Parenthood, or Catholic Services, they are concerned with jobs, and Gasoline prices.

So all of this cackling on about religion and race is the same old side show we hear that the deciding voters are numb to. Calling them a racist just reminds them they hit a nerve and must have won the argument as it has resorted to a lower form of discussion.

And Kays I am glad you want to protect your right to an abortion. afterall it is your body.......


----------



## midphase (Mar 15, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Thu Mar 15 said:


> It would seem to be that you need your heros to be perfect.



Hardly so.

I don't agree with all of Bill Maher's issues and takes, I know he's a flawed guy (who isn't?). But I think that in the particular context of which this discussion is framed, I find that comparing Maher's statements to Limbaugh is somewhat to miss the point.

Bill Maher is first and foremost a comedian and not a political pundit as Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilly. He is comparable to someone like Jon Stewart (except Jon Stewart isn't allowed to use swear words on his network).

I also do think that Maher is using abrasive language and comedy towards religion to make a statement about our hypocritical and dual standard society. He often brings up the fact that in our entire Congress, only 1 Senator is a self described atheist and that it would be unthinkable for most Americans to elect an atheist as president.

Atheism in America is more than derided, it is attacked, ostracized and many times physically punished, yet how often do we come to its defense in the same way that people come to the defense of religion when they feel it's being attacked?


----------



## chimuelo (Mar 15, 2012)

http://www.bing.com/news/search?q=bill+ ... &FORM=EWRE

It seems the Alabama Democratic Party doesn't want Maher as their Pundint afterall. He was going to Huntsville to speak, and he has done this before. He realizes that Citizens United is outraising the PAC Obama said he wouldn't use but needs now, by a 2 to 1 margin. So at least he puts his money where his mouth is.
Hollywood's donations are 60% less for Obama than in 2008, so he hopes to start a trend.
In all reality the Hollywood money isn't necessary. The AFL-CIO had their 28 Million in 2008 beat by a factor of 20, meaning 400+ Million.

But the AFL-CIO isn't stupid with their money. They promise x-amount but release 20-30 Million here, then wait for a law to get passed or a Lawyer from the NLRB to stop a company from building by using an injunction, etc. Then he gets another 20-30 million for the next laws they want to purchase
.
That is the real world, and I wouldn't worry about Hollywood lacking in funds. But you can see why the Obama handlers take cash from anywhere at this point.

25 Womens groups raised so much hell with the DNC in Alabama they cancelled the " comedian ", so we can expect to hear him make fun of Rednecks and religion even more.
Im sure it will be very entertaining. But at the end of the day he is a political pundint, but at least he puts his money where his mouth is......

I do believe Obama will get a Billion promised, but in phases as I decribe above. Soros owes him and so does Buffet. I mean the Shutdown of the Gulf Drilling was a great oppurtunity for the Green movement guys like Soros. They immediately invested Billions in Brazilion Off shore Drilling and 3 rigs off of the coast of the RedNeck Riviera ( Biluxi, Mississippi ) are moving down there now too. So these guys love buying a President and the law.
Haven't figured out the 5 Billion Dollar BOA insider tip Buffet got, or the angle for Canada to build the Pipeline to the West yet, but Buffet is surely putting up the funds for that, as well as giving 50-60 million to Obama for even better purchases in the next term.

You don't really think these guys want to tax themselves do you....?
I mean they try and embarrass everyone else into thinking they should do it, but I guess their managers won't allow him to direct any of his funds until a law gets passed.
Thats the Crony Capitalism Charitable way of doing business.....


----------



## NYC Composer (Mar 15, 2012)

midphase @ Thu Mar 15 said:


> Atheism in America is more than derided, it is attacked, ostracized and many times physically punished, yet how often do we come to its defense in the same way that people come to the defense of religion when they feel it's being attacked?



I do, and strongly. I challenge the notion that freedom of religion means freedom to PICK a religion. I do it everywhere I go. I am intolerant of intolerance. I speak out in arenas where I know it will do little good, because it needs to be said.

I call myself an agnostic rather than an atheist because I'm not a-anything I can't disprove, but I am not a person of faith. I simply believe in respect for the beliefs of others as long as those beliefs don't turn into actions that hurt others, and there are enough good people of faith out there whose beliefs shouldn't be ridiculed and disrespected out of whole cloth-only their actions should be dealt with, and those with an even hand. Stooping to the tactics of those you disagree with puts you on their level.

I think I'll repeat this assertion in every response-I do not believe that Maher is the liberal equivalent of Limbaugh. I do believe that he sometimes makes sexist and patronizing remarks about women and demeaning comments about people of faith, and I wish he would stop the first and stop generalizing with the second.


----------



## madbulk (Mar 15, 2012)

midphase @ Thu Mar 15 said:


> ... I find that comparing Maher's statements to Limbaugh is somewhat to miss the point.
> 
> Bill Maher is first and foremost a comedian and not a political pundit as Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilly. He is comparable to someone like Jon Stewart (except Jon Stewart isn't allowed to use swear words on his network).
> 
> ...



No no no.

Maher and Stewart are comedians first but ever less foremost. They're extremely political now. That's the gray area. That's why it's comparable to Limbaugh. 
O'Reily is not first and foremost a political pundit. He's completely analogous to Maher and Stewart. 
And relative IQ or rightness is not a defense. Nor anymore is being a comedian. They've forfeited that. At some point you can't have it both ways.

Maher uses abrasive language because he thinks it's funnier and more persuasive that way.

And Rush by the way has a job to do too. He's gotta be out there on the edge of that line every day to get his base all fired up and happy. These things happen. They always have.

And atheism is less derided, attacked and ostracized than ever. Atheists, and for that matter liberals, are feeling their oats!


----------



## midphase (Mar 15, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Thu Mar 15 said:


> I do not believe that Maher is the liberal equivalent of Limbaugh. I do believe that he sometimes makes sexist and patronizing remarks about women and demeaning comments about people of faith, and I wish he would stop the first and stop generalizing with the second.



Fair enough, I guess from my perspective I'm not as bothered by this, mostly because he seems very mild and ultimately quite harmless compared to what comes out of the mouths of the other side. He's killing them with laughter while the innuendo coming from the likes of Coulter, Palin and others would seem to indicate that they would prefer the more "traditional" methods.

There is a lot of talk about taking the high road and not stooping down to "their" level, but this strategy has not worked for Obama. Here he is today, one of the more mild and centrist presidents that we have had in a long time, being accused of having a socialistic agenda and waging a war against religion. By taking the high road Obama has allowed those loud mouths (with the support of Fox News) to completely hijack the political discussion in this country. The idea that in 2012 we are still talking about the moral objections to birth control blows my mind. 

I think that perhaps in this current climate, the high road is not always the best solution.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 16, 2012)

> Maher and Stewart are comedians first but ever less foremost. They're extremely political now. That's the gray area. That's why it's comparable to Limbaugh.
> O'Reily is not first and foremost a political pundit. He's completely analogous to Maher and Stewart.
> And relative IQ or rightness is not a defense. Nor anymore is being a comedian. They've forfeited that. At some point you can't have it both ways.



Jon Stewart is equivalent to a political cartoon, as Ted Koppel put it, and his show is in a different category from any of the above. But neither Maher nor Stewart needs defending, and I think relative IQ and rightness make all the difference in the world!

The truth and intelligence in what Maher says is the exact difference between him and any one of those right-wing moron liars who are leading hordes of stupid people to vote our country down the toilet.

And being a comedian does give him a license to express things differently from the way a standard talking head would put them. That's why he's funny rather than offensive.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 16, 2012)

By the way, Maher's comment about Bristol Palin - which he apologized for - was a little OTT.

But a comedian joking about the pregnant teenage daughter of a right-wing "small town values is the real America"-type national disgrace is in no way as offensive as even looking at Rush Limbaugh - and that's before he opens his big fat mouth.

What Maher actually intended was to dis Sarah Palin for her hypocrisy, not to make fun of her teenage daughter.


----------



## chimuelo (Mar 16, 2012)

Yes the wisest most educated elites listen to Maher, too bad they number under 1 million. Rush has 20 million listeners but those are those uneducated elderly people who served their country and worried about Sunstiens early entry into hospice programs.
I seriously doubt that many younger people listen toLimbaugh, there's nothing in it for them, and even the uneducated millions you speak of know he's farting 50% of the time, but he provides the truth about the Andy Sterns Health Care Plan that the elites never read as they had to pass it, that was thier order, that didn't include knowing what was in it or the costs, or the way elderly people would lose many decisions in the process.
Already 27 States have grounds for an appeal due to the constituionality of it, while this shows you that Andys lawyers should've gotten together in person rather than submitting their chapters over the internet.
But the worst part of it is that the CBO finally has read the multi thousand page document, ran their conductivity tests, and Lo and behold, the smartest humans on the Planet ( Liberals of course ) still flunk out in math as it's a big cry from 600,000,000,000 to a whopping 2,700,000,000,000 USD.
You see these uneducated morons you speak of have higher math skills than the wealthy Liberal geniuses.
So I guess when such consistent lies are discovered, and massive financial " mistakes " the uneducated morons don't trust the wealthy Liberals very much.
But this is all moot, unless the wealthy messengers of God outspend Obama, and attack his lack of a fiscal energy policy, health care lies, Guantanamo soccer fields, and all of that stuff. He's got a record now, so only 2 billion dollars can get him re elected not the original 1 billion.
Romney will be the guy most likely and be attacked day in and out, but whoever clogs the airwaves wins, so we'll see if these millions of uneducated morons take away the blank checkbook from the wealthy Liberals who are there solely to protect us and guide us to our destiny....
But if they lose, we will have morning prayers like Billions in India, Pakistan and Suadi Arabia do, so someday I'll try and understand why 200+ million Americans can't get representation.
Maybe our kids will have the courage and balls to take it back as all we do is come here like cackling Hens....


----------



## NYC Composer (Mar 16, 2012)

Rooster. I cackle like a rooster, damnit,.


----------



## madbulk (Mar 16, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Mar 16 said:


> > Maher and Stewart are comedians first but ever less foremost. They're extremely political now. That's the gray area. That's why it's comparable to Limbaugh.
> > O'Reily is not first and foremost a political pundit. He's completely analogous to Maher and Stewart.
> > And relative IQ or rightness is not a defense. Nor anymore is being a comedian. They've forfeited that. At some point you can't have it both ways.
> 
> ...



You say it does, but it's the matter at hand. We just disagree Nick, at least on the matter of how MUCH license it gets them, being comedians, smart and right. It's a threshold, not binary. Our thresholds are different. You're more pissed off than I am. By a ton. LOL 

I like decorum, a lot. 
But here too I certainly see your point. I'm reminded of Richard Dawkins who at the end of a TED speech where he had wrapped up by describing the massive suffering caused in his view by religion in general and said, "it's time to stop being so damned polite."


----------



## chimuelo (Mar 16, 2012)

I also cackle alot Larry, especially when personal insults are levied, not at me, but the helpless elderly who actually served thier country instead of demanding from it. And as far as misrepresetations of Catholic Services, that only ask they not break their belief system. It's not like they beat down the doors and stop sex.
Catholics who are the ones who made the most noise, as they were the softer targets chosen in this attempt to appease yet another voting block, have Gay and Lesbian members as well as clergy.

So if some folks resort to such tactics, they basically have already lost the argument, but their cackings are similar to mine, but my avatar at least matches the process.
I dont try and pretend I am anything other than an avid small government believer.
They can't count, they steal lie and cheat, send our sons and daughters into harms way with no strategy, so why would I want to increase their numbers....??

BaGaaww........


----------



## givemenoughrope (Mar 16, 2012)

I can't say I'm the biggest Bill Maher fan but I like him sometimes. In a fight between he and Rush Limbaugh, Maher would win b/c I'd probably help him. But really, I could care less. 

What is sort of fascinating is the fact that Rush spits out all that million dollar nonsense from the top of an anonymous office building in Palm Beach, essentially by himself and is completely deaf to the world. Stranger than fiction as usual:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/magaz ... wanted=all


----------

