# String sounds



## bluejay (Jan 21, 2009)

Hi fellow VIC-ars,

I don't have a complete composition here but a quick 45 second snippet of something I'm working on at the moment.

I'm having to write slow-moving exposed strings for the first time in ages and it's as tough as I remember. Just wanted to see if these sound synthy to other ears.

All comments and (more importantly) advice welcome.

I'm using a combination of: -

SISS
VSL App Strings
VSL Chamber Strings II
VSL Orchestral Strings (from SE)
Omnisphere Transparent Adagio

http://www.jamessemple.com/music/credits.mp3

I'm not likely to have the money for either Symphobia or LASS any time soon, so they aren't options.

I love the general sound of SISS but I'm struggling with the transitions a lot. I keep having to duck the sound with the modwheel.

cheers

James


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## jc5 (Jan 21, 2009)

You've done a very nice job of it. This type of passage is indeed nothing but grief to bring out with samples. All I could suggest is perhaps to bring in a bit more dynamic movement in the longer static notes - little swells which real strings would play even if not marked.

The only other you could really do to raise the bar would be to layer in some live playing on top of the samples. This type of passage is where such a technique would shine most.


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## PolarBear (Jan 21, 2009)

Sounds slightly synthy to me because of a) no lyrical vibrato and b) almost no legato. This type of passage does scream for exaggeration of both.


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## Jack Weaver (Jan 21, 2009)

Hey bluejay,

I don't think that it sounds synthy. It does certainly lend itself to sounding 'hybrid' (combined orchestra & synthesis) with that ostinato - both because of the timbre of the ostinato and its rhythmic regularity. Perhaps if you changed that instrument and varied the tempo a bit more some of those 'synth' aural clues would no longer be there.

Personally I believe that listeners (especially in movies & TV) are so used to hearing a hybrid production style that it is accepted as real - or 'real enough'.

The various string sounds are certainly credible. The dynamics help sell it. 

I think this cue sounds very good. Congrats.


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## RiffWraith (Jan 21, 2009)

Sounds a tad synthy, but not alot.

There is one way to clear that up:

Render the odd notes to one audio track, and the even notes to another, and play with the automation (ie fader moves) ALOT.

So that this:

http://www.jeffreyhayat.com/Vnoauto.mp3

becomes:

http://www.jeffreyhayat.com/Vwithauto.mp3

Cheers.


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## synthetic (Jan 21, 2009)

I would use CC11 to add more shape to your lines. Start soft and build through the phrase, ending soft again. Instead of starting mf right on the note.


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## bluejay (Jan 22, 2009)

Thanks for the help, advice and comments guys.

I am using a healthy dose of CC11 (and Modwheel for the mod XF SISS patches) and I am changing tempos ... 

... but I've accentuated that a bit more. I've also increased the mix of App Strings with more legato/portamento and vibrato there.

RiffWraith, that sounds great but I really can't spend time doing that. The director will be over on the weekend and will undoubtedly want to tweak this slightly and change that slightly so I really don't want to render to audio.

Jack, good point about the repetitive harp sounds. I might look into a way of hiding that but I'm quite happy for it to sound artificial. It works as a kind of effect.

So ... new slightly more polished version at http://www.jamessemple.com/music/credits.mp3 as before.

cheers

James


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## schatzus (Jan 22, 2009)

Hey James,
The cue in the new link sounds great. You can definitely hear the difference the changes make. A lesson for all as this type of cue is asked for quite a bit. (At least in my experience..)


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## Franco904 (Jan 22, 2009)

Cool cue James, sounds very good with the Strings !

Franco


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## Rob Elliott (Jan 22, 2009)

Hi James,

You have CS2 so try the pfp patches layered to taste to give the 'expression' you are looking for. If you have the solo strings 1 or 2 you can also try that (again pfp patches - the viola is particularily useful here).

Doesn't always work but also try mixing the VL-14's pfp trem patch (of course way back).


I do all these things to keep away from the dreaded static string sound (which I actually don't hear a lot in your examples).


Hope this helps. Nice music btw. :D 

Rob


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## PolarBear (Jan 22, 2009)

I would also try to layer a more expressive solo violin or chamber strings patch over the top violin line. Whilst I think you ipmroved some on this I still don't see how the melodic line could be heard as a connected phrase, it's somehow an unusual style of "phrase pronounciation" if you will... that last strings figure with the 3 notes (down down 2up down down 2up down down) from :24 on should feel a lot more connected an legato, currently it's feeling for me like Daa daa daa Daa daa daa while I'd expect something like Daauaauaa Daauaauaa.


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## bluejay (Jan 23, 2009)

Hi Polar Bear, 

Thanks again for taking an interest in this. To be honest I was more concerned with the slow moving strings but you are right about this section.

As evidenced in a thread a while ago I find it difficult to get samples to play well at this kind of speed (although I don't use SIPS much, perhaps I should).

The biggest problem seems to be ducking the attacks of the second and third notes in the phrases. Unfortunately I find the little gliss sound added in by VSL legato can actually emphasise the transition even more and (particularly when slightly buried in a mix like this) it almost sounds like an attack itself.

All suggestions very welcome!


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## Mahlon (Jan 23, 2009)

bluejay @ Fri Jan 23 said:


> Unfortunately I find the little gliss sound added in by VSL legato can actually emphasise the transition even more and (particularly when slightly buried in a mix like this) it almost sounds like an attack itself.



I've found the same thing true.

Mahlon


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## PolarBear (Jan 24, 2009)

Mahlon @ Fri Jan 23 said:


> bluejay @ Fri Jan 23 said:
> 
> 
> > Unfortunately I find the little gliss sound added in by VSL legato can actually emphasise the transition even more and (particularly when slightly buried in a mix like this) it almost sounds like an attack itself.
> ...



That's why I sometimes use the 0.5sec staccatos and additional carve out some attack via volume control for this purpose with a good amount of overlaying the following notes with the previous sample (like around an 1/8th to 1/16th note). If those don't work you could also try the regular sus or even pfp-patches. There's quite a lot to test around


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## alphabetgreen (Jan 26, 2009)

Hiya James,

They sound gorgeous to me. However, I'm getting a bit confused about certain standards. What sounds good to me usually sounds terrible on this forum.... lol.

I would have thought that VSL were the epitome of good strings. Are Symphobia really that good?

Simon


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## bluejay (Jan 26, 2009)

Thanks Simon. I think the general tone of the strings is good but there are a few areas that could be improved (transitions notably). Still I've definitely learned a few tricks with this now.

From what I'm told, Symphobia have great string patches that just seem to sound very realistic. Funnily enough, it looks as though I may end up having the opportunity to buy this now anyway.


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## Pedro Camacho (Jan 26, 2009)

PolarBear @ Thu Jan 22 said:


> Sounds slightly synthy.



I agree completely.

I think I finally got a very nice strings sounds in my private library which I call Sigma.

My idea with this library was not to make a new full orchestra from scratch but to meld extremely well various libraries with custom material.

I do have and own Appassionata, chambers and the normal strings from VSL.

*This applies to SUSTAINS/LEGATOS articulations ONLY*

While I was in the selection process this what I came to the conclusion, after TONS of experimentation, that whenever VSL came in, everything sounded synthy on *SUSTAINS/LEGATOS* only.

Even with very detailed EQ, tons of reverb experimentation, even using the VSL new EQs and their templates, the sound always became sterile and synthy.

All I can say it, do not use VSL for strings.

VSL is excellent in all other instruments, but strings will never be good.

The bigger problem is that when you combine more stuff together, the sound just becomes worse.



The only strings I found that COULD work on some moments, were the Cello legatos from the full Appassionata.



*My tip for now:*

Use SISS only.

Don't worry about transitions, if you sequence it correctly, use the RT from the SISS or even the scripted legatos (customized SIPS) which also work well, you will get what you want.

If you want a sound that has more lush into it, try combining the UP and DOWN patches into one, doubling the orchestra. If you just want to have a more "legato" feeling either use SIPS or just the UP patch because the attack is quite softer.


*About symphobia*

Symphobia alone is only worth for its effects, however if you can afford to use it behind another main and detailed library, it gives you a very nice touch and tone to it. I really love it, but I know some people who think it is not useful except for effects.


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## PolarBear (Jan 26, 2009)

No Pedro... I don't think you can be that harsh... while the strings may sound synthy at times (I know from my done-in-2-days "Santa Barbara"-piece) they can sound really great at other pieces (like in "Man in a Million" or "Valley of Hope" or that little teaser "That Journey" of mine) - and I just used the Opus 1 strings for that. There is also a lot of other fine work around with VSL strings. Point is that you have to think through traditional boundaries and also use the articulations in an unintended way sometimes.

[See my forum threads in the compositions forum or my website for the named songs, sorry, Firefox 3 compliant only atm.]


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## bluejay (Jan 26, 2009)

Thanks guys, lots of interesting info.

This cue has been signed off and accepted by the director anyway but I'll certainly take this advice for the future.

cheers

James


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## Pedro Camacho (Jan 26, 2009)

PolarBear @ Mon Jan 26 said:


> There is also a lot of other fine work around with VSL strings. Point is that you have to think through traditional boundaries and also use the articulations in an unintended way sometimes.



Well you are right, I was being unfair.

Perhaps it is my problem, and my ears simply dont like VSL too much.


I heard your music and it is great, indeed  Yet I think it could sound even better with other libs.


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