# Anne-Kathrin Dern discusses Mac & PC



## SlHarder (Jun 26, 2021)




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## dcoscina (Jun 26, 2021)

I see the usual diatribe in the comments section taking place… but her video is good. I find her opinions fairly balanced for the most part. And informed.


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## muziksculp (Jun 26, 2021)

Yup, I switched to PC/Windows from Mac OS, 10 Years ago.


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## Geoff Grace (Jun 26, 2021)

I'm a Mac user, but I agree that *Anne*'s choice to switch made sense for her as a Cubase user who needs a lot of RAM and an easy machine to quickly repair. I'd probably do the same if that were my main DAW and I were in her situation.

Even so, her video is already a bit out-of-date. The following notice appeared at around 8:00 minutes in:

_"Disclaimer: I recorded this video before the first M1 machines came out"_

The future of the Mac platform has a lot of unanswered questions at this point that were less apparent when she recorded her video (even though it was only posted today). I think it's wise to stick with Intel for the time being, especially if you need lots of RAM and Kontakt; but Apple Silicon holds a lot of promise. It's really hard to see at this point which will be a better platform for composers in 3-5 years time.

Best,

Geoff


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## dcoscina (Jun 26, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Yup, I switched to PC/Windows from Mac OS, 10 Years ago.


I was Windows from 1997 thru to 2007. Them vista came along and sucked major ass so I went to Mac and haven’t looked back. I just don’t dig the navigation of Windows even though I’m stuck with it for my day job.


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## el-bo (Jun 26, 2021)

Geoff Grace said:


> I'm a Mac user, but I agree that *Anne*'s choice to switch made sense for her as a Cubase user who needs a lot of RAM and an easy machine to quickly repair. I'd probably do the same if that were my main DAW and I were in her situation.
> 
> Even so, her video is already a bit out-of-date. The following notice appeared at around 8:00 minutes in:
> 
> ...


Will be interesting to see how it all pans out. But the one thing that won't likely change is Apple machines not 'allowing' user-expandability and easy repairability.


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## szczaw (Jun 26, 2021)

I never had a Mac. I could never understand the appeal of one-button mouse.


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## proxima (Jun 26, 2021)

szczaw said:


> I never had a Mac. I could never understand the appeal of one-button mouse.


Macs have supported multi-button mice for decades. Touchpads let you use two fingers to right click, the Magic Mouse actually recognizes a right click, and many of us use third party mice which can support lots of buttons.

The only real legacy of the one button mouse is that right-click menus are unlikely to be the only way to access important functions. They exist all over the place though (even right clicking the desktop), but they aren’t typically the only place to find what you want.


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## szczaw (Jun 26, 2021)

proxima said:


> Macs have supported multi-button mice for decades.


But that wasn't the standard, and Macs were sold with one-button mouse (?)


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## proxima (Jun 26, 2021)

szczaw said:


> But that wasn't the standard, and Macs were sold with one-button mouse (?)


The Mighty Mouse was introduced in 2005 and had two buttons. Shipping with two buttons has been standard for 16 years.


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## Toecutter (Jun 26, 2021)

Give her a medal


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## szczaw (Jun 26, 2021)

proxima said:


> The Mighty Mouse was introduced in 2005 and had two buttons. Shipping with two buttons has been standard for 16 years.



HP-HIL Mouse from 1984


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## proxima (Jun 26, 2021)

szczaw said:


> HP-HIL Mouse from 1984


I used to hate Macs too, before OS X. But times change, and in this case they changed over a decade ago. The long-ago history is irrelevant for a decision between Mac and Windows now.


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## szczaw (Jun 26, 2021)

proxima said:


> I used to hate Macs too, before OS X. But times change, and in this case they changed over a decade ago. The long-ago history is irrelevant for a decision between Mac and Windows now.


It's not irrelevant, since people who picked one platform over the other, years ago, are probably sticking to it to this day. I don't hate Macs. I used some in a school lab and wasn't impressed. That's all.


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## mscp (Jun 26, 2021)

As "inefficiently" mentioned in other threads over the past few years...they both have several quirks --- except with windows PCs, you can upgrade parts if you have the knowledge to do so.

No point wasting time on it. Get one, use it. If it blows, switch. But yes, 12 grand for a *music* computer IS ridiculous. I agree with her.

What she didn't mention though was: It's up to the developers to care about building decent/efficiently-coded software for both OSs.


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## cuttime (Jun 26, 2021)

I always ask one question: What would you rather edit, a Windows registry, or a Mac .plist?


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## CATDAD (Jun 26, 2021)

After months exploring the possibility of music production on Linux...

Let me tell you, both MacOS and Windows run like a goddamn dream!


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## el-bo (Jun 27, 2021)

proxima said:


> The Mighty Mouse was introduced in 2005 and had two buttons. Shipping with two buttons has been standard for 16 years.


Do you think it was announced as having "...come to save the day"?


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## dunamisstudio (Jun 27, 2021)

Mac - pay whole lot of money. Also I experienced similar issues as she did with Mac. Mainly I had bought a 2008 Mac Pro secondhand and did the upgrades myself. But it did last ten years before people stop supporting it.

Windows - built a PC lot cheaper than a Mac, course I always have to deal with technical issues any time M$ pushes an update out. Example, today, Remote Desktop won't work now though I set it up when I built my new machine last year and it worked fine.


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## PhilA (Jun 27, 2021)

They’re all tools to do a job. Give a skilled carpenter any reasonable hammer and saw and they will produce stunning results. The same goes for composers (and other skilled trades) tools are personal and financial choices to get the job done. We all have preferences.
Disclaimer I run Mac exclusively at home, my reasons are to distance myself from my day job (30 year Microsoft specialist IT pro)
I’ve ended up preferring the aesthetics of MacOS but I’m of no delusion that everything I do can happen almost identically on Windows (except running my Daw of choice Logic 😉)


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## Piotrek K. (Jun 28, 2021)

proxima said:


> Shipping with two buttons has been standard for 16 years.


I don't care for Mac or Windows wars, but this statement made my day somehow ;D

*Two buttons. One mouse. Future is now. Apple*


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## robgb (Jun 28, 2021)

There is nothing that will ever make me go back to Windows. Nothing.


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## el-bo (Jun 28, 2021)

robgb said:


> There is nothing that will ever make me go back to Windows. Nothing.


Before Apple released their M1 series, I was convinced I'd be priced out of the Apple market. As long as they always have this cheaper entry-point, things should be fine.

My only ongoing nagging thought is in regard to the inability for a user to replace parts. I know it's been like this for a while, but I'm still using a 2012 model that gives me access to RAM and allows me to easily switch out two internal ssd. Considering a tendency for Apple specialists to start by recommending full Logic-board replacements, along with not even touching computers older than five-years-old, the whole thing seems a little precarious.


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## R. Soul (Jun 28, 2021)

Piotrek K. said:


> I don't care for Mac or Windows wars, but this statement made my day somehow ;D
> 
> *Two buttons. One mouse. Future is now. Apple*


Yeah...wow.  
My mouse has 11 buttons, and is fairly mid range.


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## nolotrippen (Jun 28, 2021)

szczaw said:


> I never had a Mac. I could never understand the appeal of one-button mouse.


You're not limited to a single-button mouse at all.


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## nolotrippen (Jun 28, 2021)

szczaw said:


> But that wasn't the standard, and Macs were sold with one-button mouse (?)


I haven't used a Mac mouse since 1999. Just because something is included, doesn't mean you have to use it.


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## nolotrippen (Jun 28, 2021)

Rick Miani has some helpful videos on using "old" Macs and upgrading them (or which ones suck):


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## nolotrippen (Jun 28, 2021)

robgb said:


> There is nothing that will ever make me go back to Windows. Nothing.


Free candy? Booze? Loose women? Oops, wrong thread.


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## ashX (Jun 28, 2021)

Tbh as a poor guy who knows how to count money, I would never get apple products as they are overpriced because of its brand. But I dont judge rich people who can buy it because Apple products are not bad. I can build a good PC for 1000$ and less (without gaming card ofc) but for Apple we need 3-4x more money.


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## Tim_Wells (Jun 28, 2021)

PhilA said:


> They’re all tools to do a job. Give a skilled carpenter any reasonable hammer and saw and they will produce stunning results. The same goes for composers (and other skilled trades) tools are personal and financial choices to get the job done. We all have preferences.
> Disclaimer I run Mac exclusively at home, my reasons are to distance myself from my day job (30 year Microsoft specialist IT pro)
> I’ve ended up preferring the aesthetics of MacOS but I’m of no delusion that everything I do can happen almost identically on Windows (except running my Daw of choice Logic 😉)


Well said! 

Many years ago, after much research, I selected Logic on the PC as my DAW of choice. Then, just as I was getting use to it... along came Apple and said F.U. PC users. I was angry and resentful for a long time. Finally got over that.

But, I was pretty locked into the PC environment and I didn't want to change. I've always preferred the more open platform and better value that PCs represented. No regrets.


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## dcoscina (Jun 28, 2021)

szczaw said:


> It's not irrelevant, since people who picked one platform over the other, years ago, are probably sticking to it to this day. I don't hate Macs. I used some in a school lab and wasn't impressed. That's all.


I dabbled with Windows 10 on a surface a few years back when Staffpad first came out. Hated it. Even for other music apps and daws I found it was frustrating. Returned the surface and was delighted with SP was released on iOS in 2020. 
Even when I was on PC prior to 2007, I remember continually running down driver issues, updating virus protection apps and all the nonsense. Mac isn’t perfect but it works better for me. That’s all I have to say about that.


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 28, 2021)

Rarely (if ever) mentioned in the Mac v PC debate is how much Apple's pro software is subsidised by the hardware. Final Cut Pro and Logic are subscription free and have had years of free updates. 

Also: The free iCloud line of software and services is enough to run a personal business with, with no ads or ongoing subscription costs.

The Mac vs PC debate is always drilled down to the upfront hardware price, but it needs more nuance I think. Each to their own though. Use what you desire!


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## Ben (Jun 28, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> Even when I was on PC prior to 2007, I remember continually running down driver issues, updating virus protection apps and all the nonsense.


That was 14 years ago... Back in these dark ages of computer hard- and software many things were different.
These days you must have very exotic hardware to run into driver issues, and click on every link in every spam /phishing mail to get some malware. Since Windows 8 I did not run into driver or malware related issues once.

From what I have seen 50% use Mac, 50% use Windows. But if you ask me, I would bet that it will change in the professional market in favor of Windows: *To me it seems* that Apple is no longer interested to keep the professional users on their platform, but rather focus on casual users.
Also, while the M1 chip seems to be very capable and offer great performance at a somewhat reasonable price (depends on the device), my biggest issue with this new hardware is the monolithic design: No longer can you replace / upgrade the CPU, RAM or SSD. If one of the components break (mainboard, CPU, SSD, RAM) you have to buy a new system. At the same time I can simply buy matching hardware as replacement, and have my system running again in no time (and since Windows 8 or 10 you don't even have to re-install the OS when swapping mainboard or CPU, it will just work and handle disabling/enabling required drivers automatically).

Half of my colleagues are using Macs, I prefer Windows (I only use my Mac if I really have to) - but it doesn't matter: We can perfectly work together as a team while using the hardware and software each one preferes - and that is the thing that really matters imo.


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## dcoscina (Jun 28, 2021)

Alex Fraser said:


> Rarely (if ever) mentioned in the Mac v PC debate is how much Apple's pro software is subsidised by the hardware. Final Cut Pro and Logic are subscription free and have had years of free updates.
> 
> Also: The free iCloud line of software and services is enough to run a personal business with, with no ads or ongoing subscription costs.
> 
> The Mac vs PC debate is always drilled down to the upfront hardware price, but it needs more nuance I think. Each to their own though. Use what you desire!


This is very true. Steinberg has yearly costly upgrades for both Cubase and Dorico. Logic has had many significant improvements at no cost and is ridiculously priced to jump into for newcomers.


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## dcoscina (Jun 28, 2021)

Ben said:


> That's 14 years ago... Back in these dark ages of computer hard- and software many things were different.
> These days you must have very exotic hardware to run into driver issues, and click on every link in every spam /phishing mail to get some malware. Since Windows 8 I did not run into driver or malware related issues once.


You missed the part where I mentioned trying Windows out again on a Surface Pro a few years back and disliking the experience vehemently. Core audio on Windows is... crap. I can actually compose music on my little Macbook Air i7 with no interface. I tried ASIO4All back then and it still was a royal PITA. So, for me, I figured I'd stick with Mac. And I also use Logic so it's kind of necessary.

Now I will say that I won't sink $7000 into a new Mac Pro. I think the greed in that decision was beyond compare. Mac Pros used to start at a reasonable price point. Now apple appears to be punishing the pro market, or forcing them into iMacs or whatnot.

I also should add that I don't use templates and rarely exceed 80 tracks. So my hardware requirements aren't what others might require.

I guess I'm only tired of the narrative "only stupid people like or needs Macs". I used to get into computer programming and hardware as a younger lad when time seemed to be abundant. Now, I just need the damned stuff to work.


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## Ben (Jun 28, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> Core audio on Windows is... crap.


The new Windows Audio system is not perfect, but in most cases with decent hardware it will work as intended in my experience. Most problems with it are related to cheap audio hardware or bad implementation in the client software (DAWs, standalone players,...), and therefore I only use it if necassary, good ASIO drivers + hardware simply offer so much more flexibility and performance.
I work from my office, where I have all the gear I need, so portablility is something I rarely need.

I can't comment on the Surface Pro, but even with my cheap notebook I got for word processing and browsing the web, I'm able to get everything running without an interface if required.


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 28, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> I guess I'm only tired of the narrative "only stupid people like or needs Macs". I used to get into computer programming and hardware as a younger lad when time seemed to be abundant. Now, I just need the damned stuff to work.


This. I've done my time scratching around inside the box and replacing bits. Fair play to those who enjoy it, but it's not for me any more.

Unwrap the shiny new one, get to work, replace in 6-8 years.


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## Nimrod7 (Jun 28, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> Core audio on Windows is... crap.



My ratio working on PC's is 70% vs 30% mac (just music, and coding).
So I don't feel I am biased, but I can't think myself working on a PC for music, Core Audio is one reason, the midi routing flexibility and other aspects of the OS which I can't get my head around working on PCs.
I also experienced that a Windows app is locking the audio driver, and is no possible to have another app sharing it (is there a walkaround on this?).

PC's are not that upgradable, that's not always the case.
New gen CPU's are rarely compatible with older motherboards, PCI3 vs 4, and yeah you can just keep the RAM the GPU and the Case.
Never in my life upgraded a PC, I just build a new rig, probably everything I have is outdated by the time I decide to upgrade. Reparability is a huge plus though, if something fails, just get a new one.

I am debating also some of Apple's decisions, there might be 'some limited' use cases behind them but:

- Do they really need XEON processors? and ECC RAM? This alone shall cut the cost half of the mac pro.
- Lock the damn boot SSD for the secure enclave, but why no NVMEs for secondary SSDs on Mac Pro?
- What's up with the stupidity of not supporting Nvidia cards, and supporting a limited amount of Radeons?
- What's up with the challenge of upgrading the processor, and voiding the warranty (not that many people want to spend 3k on a processor anyhow).


On PCs:

- Can you really build a PC as silent as a Mac Pro? I failed too many times.
- I upgrade the NVidia driver, the audio switches to HDMI automatically, stupid stuff like that can cause a lot of frustration to someone that don't know PC's well.
- 10 years now I haven't seen a monitor that good as the 5K iMac monitor, with the exception of LG 5K2K. A lot of crap for gamers out there.
- Some hardware / software manufacturers are exclusive to Apple.


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## Jett Hitt (Jun 28, 2021)

I find the mouse argument hilarious. If you're not using a programmable mouse on either platform, you're missing out. I have a $40 gaming mouse with 13 programmable buttons assigned to all sorts of things. Seven tools right on my thumb. It took a bit of ingenuity to set it up, but I find that it works incredibly well with Logic.


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## Ben (Jun 28, 2021)

Nimrod7 said:


> Can you really build a PC as silent as a Mac Pro? I failed too many times.


Yes! Of course it will cost extra (not nearly as much as you need to get a Apple system). Most of the times when I talk to Apple-is-better-period people, they are willing to pay thousands of dollars for an Apple device, but are not willing to pay even $1000 for a Windows machine. You can't expect the same experience on such machines.

I have custom build my system, and have upgraded it several times adding RAM, replacing the CPU, adding a GPU, adding SSDs... 



Nimrod7 said:


> I upgrade the NVidia driver, the audio switches to HDMI automatically, stupid stuff like that can cause a lot of frustration to someone that don't know PC's well.


I recommend to disable the HDMI output in the Device Manager, if you don't need them.



Nimrod7 said:


> 10 years now I haven't seen a monitor that good as the 5K iMac monitor, with the exception of LG 5K2K. A lot of crap for gamers out there.


True, the displays are very nice on Apple devices. But you can also get quite some good devices if you are willing to pay more then 200-300$ for a 2k display. Don't let the "Gaming" tag bother you, if the specs are fine and you like how it looks and feels, just get it.


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## Satorious (Jun 28, 2021)

This doesn't need to be a cult - there is no right or wrong answer - both are merely tools - both work - stop wasting your time arguing/justifying which is best (pros and cons on both) - use the time you just saved to actually write some music rather than procrastinating about it!


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## szczaw (Jun 28, 2021)

nolotrippen said:


> I haven't used a Mac mouse since 1999. Just because something is included, doesn't mean you have to use it.


I may be ignorant of the Apple ecosystem here, but didn't the default one-button mouse dictate how most software operated ? In effect, one couldn't get away from the one-button mouse just by purchasing a standard PC mouse.


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## pixelcrave (Jun 28, 2021)

Professionally (as a UX designer), I use both Mac and PC at work, so I'm very well versed and comfortable using both. But I do use and prefer Mac personally for design and photography works, and naturally also for this hobby.

One thing that often got lost in the discussion is about cost of ownership and high resale value of Apple machines— which by default seems to always favor PC (cheaper to acquire in general). For comparison, I bought a 2012 MacBook Pro around $2200, and sold it in 2018 for $700. That's 6 years (six!) of ownership for around $250 a year with no major costs for repairs & troubleshooting. 

When I had my PC prior, I remember it felt "lacking in performance or features" fairly quickly, which meant I either had to spend on upgrades or replace sooner (partly I was a gamer then but no longer — so might be an unfair comparison). But I pretty much gave away that PC to a friend for the parts because it had no resale value when I was ready move on.

Again, that was my case — yours might vary. But I just want to highlight the often dismissed argument for Mac when it comes to cost of ownership + high resale value (at least for my MacBook — obvi I'm not talking about Mac Pro)

Cheers,
Ivan


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## AEF (Jun 28, 2021)

I like her videos but folks are a little carried away with considering her some authority. 

This is like asking which side is better to bat from in baseball.

When I was a PC user until college I found Macs cumbersome and slow. Then I was forced to use Mac, and over time it became comfortable and having not used windows it now feels cumbersome to me. If I had to use a PC, windows would eventually become the more comfortable system. 

Its the same with DAWs. “time served” is the single greatest factor.


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## SlHarder (Jun 28, 2021)

Tim_Wells said:


> along came Apple and said F.U. PC users.


Last year Apple bought Darksky which had been providing excellent hyperlocal weather forecasts on Android and turned off Android services. Apple seems to like to divide and conquer as their business model.


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## el-bo (Jun 28, 2021)

ashX said:


> Tbh as a poor guy who knows how to count money, I would never get apple products as they are overpriced because of its brand. But I dont judge rich people who can buy it because Apple products are not bad. I can build a good PC for 1000$ and less (without gaming card ofc) but for Apple we need 3-4x more money.


Bought a Macbook Pro, second-hand in 2014 (The mid-2012 model), for 1100 pounds/ Bought Logic Pro for 200 pounds. Still using the same version of Logic, on the same computer...seven years later. Not a huge expense.

The laptop i owned previously (from 2007), bought new, was cheaper than the Windows laptop I had been intending to buy. Seven years with that computer and various updates of Logic cost about 2500 pounds.

So, in total, with machine and DAW included I've had 14 years of Apple music-making, for under 4k.

I'm far from rich. Expense is relative


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## pixelcrave (Jun 28, 2021)

szczaw said:


> I may be ignorant of the Apple ecosystem here, but didn't the default one-button mouse dictate how most software operated ? In effect, one couldn't get away from the one-button mouse just by purchasing a standard PC mouse.


I use MacBook but I always buy a "PC" mouse to complement the trackpad. You may possibly got hung up with the physical nature of Apple "one-button" mouse, but it does not dictate how the software work. The Mac OS have always had a "right click" operation on top of other gesture-based interaction. So buying a PC standard mouse will allow you to utilize all the buttons. And for the record as a Mac user, I do hate Apple mouse and prefer "PC" mice.


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 28, 2021)

What I like about this video is that she did not really try to say one OS platform is clearly better then the other. She noted some pros and cons to each operating system. ThAT remains the case forever. She mainly commented that while some years ago macOS was superior, particularly for music production, today Microsoft has closed the gap in a lot of ways.

Note I still happen to think core audio and core midi are superior to what has developed on windows, but windows can still be outfitted with proper asio hardware choices and reach very good performance and operability, but still I think the universal nature of Coreaudio on the Mac just gives it an edge IMHO.

For the record I happen to prefer macOS by a large margin but that is mostly because I am a nerdy ex developer that appreciates unix and hates the windows registry. For most normal users I think both platforms have become very easy to use with tons of nice usability features and the question as to which OS is better becomes a personal preference really, which is what she noted also basically.

Her main beef with the Mac, and mine too at this point in time, is that the current cost for a truely expandable power machine like the 2019 macpro is ridiculous. Prices should be going down for this stuff, not up. Someone might be able to justify buying one $10k macpro under the guise of sticking with logicpro or perhaps DP, and hope it operates for ten years to justify it, but in her case where she would need to buy a few of them it just doesn’t pencil out financially. And I agree in spades. 

I’d personally love to have one of those new macpros right now. I am quite sure i would absolutely love it for probably the next five years. After that I would be hitting myselfon the head and saying “schmuck”. Apples current pricing for this category is totally beyond exorbitant. To add to the problem they are strategically moving towards the ARM platform which is yet to be seen how that will turn out for the big pro user spec machine crowd, but presuming they finally release something along those lines it will render the currently over priced macpro as a relic very quickly. For that reason, I have to concur with her thoughts for anyone that needs to buy gear right now in 2021. Unless apple corrects the direction they are going I predict a mass exodus of pro audio users over the next five years from Mac to windows

It is very speculative to presume they will produce a macpro arm machine that suits our needs. I’m sure they want to but until we see it, it’s just a dream. If many people switch over to windows out of necessity they will lose their market and will make it even harder for apple to justify developing that area. And if they do something that costs $10k per box then I think they will continue to lose market share also in this area. And I don’t think they care because they are making gobs and gobs of money with iOS devices and eleagant looking all-in-one devices for home and lighter duty office work.

Many devoted apple fans will attempt to downsize their needs by using those underpowered office machines in some capacity for music production for years to come and the debate will rage on, but if you want a serious machine that is expandable with pci slots, use all the ram you want and any displays you want, etc then apple has to make it cost $5-6k. Otherwise many of those users will switch to windows, just as she has and probably I will too. For now I’m still holding out with my beloved cheese grater!!


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## Neutron Star (Jun 28, 2021)

If you use a dedicated music computer, its all just file management. the rest of the software is irrelevant to getting the job done. Windows 10 updates can now be disastrous, and you are now a beta tester by default, since MS don't test hardware configurations anymore. Mac OS changes also disastrous, causing even more problems than windows 10 updates. So pick your own s--t show. Considering the same or better PC hardware is around 60 percent less than apple, that's the best turd for the buck for me. But its still a turd, and needs to be carefully managed, with plenty of four thought so as not to induce IT mental breakdowns.


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## davidanthony (Jun 28, 2021)

AEF said:


> I like her videos but folks are a little carried away with considering her some authority.


I feel like this critique gets levied every time someone posts one of her videos.

I don't really think she wants to be an authority, nor does she present herself as one. Just trying to share her experiences and build her brand. She's not [insert big name composer here] but she actually has real world experience in professional settings, something that cannot be said for 99% of the people who usually post these types of videos. 

Posting about real-world experience should be celebrated, not dismissed, imo. Far too little of that on the internet these days.


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 28, 2021)

Her video does not come across to me as tribal in nature like the vast majority of internet diatribe. She does not come across as a die hard biased windows fan or apple fan, just a user with practical needs and articulating well the practical decisions she has made in the current environment. True honest observation tends to piss off both the believers and the gods


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## South Thames (Jun 28, 2021)

I'm always impressed by what a fluent and effective communicator Ann-Kathrin is. 

That said, I'm afraid she lost me when said PCs look better, and the proof she offered looked like a gaudy prop from Tron. We're just in different aesthetic universes I'm afraid.


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## Jett Hitt (Jun 28, 2021)

I’m a diehard Mac user, but I almost wholly agree with AKD’s assessment. The problem is that we are in a transition period that this video doesn’t really address. We don’t know what’s coming exactly, but since the 5,1, there haven’t been a lot of reasonable choices. I nearly fell out of my chair when I saw the price of the 7,1. I can’t imagine ponying up 10k for that machine with an Intel processor. Likewise, I doubt I would pay that for the same machine with Apple Silicon. For the foreseeable future, I think we Mac users are going to be relegated to the world of slaves. At this time, a PC seems to be the most reasonable option if you’re open to the idea. After 30+ years on a Mac, however, I’m simply not.


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## mscp (Jun 28, 2021)

Both Macs and PCs are being used in Hollywood --- Macs being in more studios than PCs. But!!! It's either a matter of taste, need, pricing, ... She eloquently stated her reason.

Despite her nice videos, don't turn opinions into facts and follow it without dotting your own i's and crossing your own t's first. Do your own due diligence. YMMV.


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## nolotrippen (Jun 28, 2021)

szczaw said:


> I may be ignorant of the Apple ecosystem here, but didn't the default one-button mouse dictate how most software operated ? In effect, one couldn't get away from the one-button mouse just by purchasing a standard PC mouse.


I feel you have a 40 year-old conception of the Mac OS. Time has passed.


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## szczaw (Jun 28, 2021)

pixelcrave said:


> You may possibly got hung up with the physical nature of Apple "one-button" mouse, but it does not dictate how the software work.


The mouse is just an example of the broader attitude of deciding for the user what works best. Seems like Apple eventually had to adopt PC standards that proved to be better and more popular.


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## el-bo (Jun 28, 2021)

nolotrippen said:


> I feel you have a 40 year-old conception of the Mac OS. Time has passed.


Don't be ageist! It's not his fault that he's 40-years-old


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## nolotrippen (Jun 28, 2021)

el-bo said:


> Don't be ageist! It's not his fault that he's 40-years-old


I see what you did there


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## nolotrippen (Jun 28, 2021)

szczaw said:


> The mouse is just an example of the broader attitude of deciding for the user what works best. Seems like Apple eventually had to adopt PC standards that proved to be better and more popular.


Whatever.


----------



## Dewdman42 (Jun 28, 2021)

Listen, there is also no question that Apple always seems to be several steps ahead of Microsoft at every new innovation they bring into MacOS. MacOS does in fact have a lot of very cool features, such as TimeMachine, Spaces and numerous others. A lot of times they are cool features that I don't particularly need, but sometimes they are. Can I live without most of the innovative things Apple has come up with? I would have to say yes in general though a few things have become so ingrained how I work that maybe not. They aren't needed enough to spend $10,000 for a computer, I will say that. But some of these innovations are very cool. Microsoft eventually adopts some of them, such as Spotlight, as she mentioned. Windows is getting better every year, no doubt, but MacOS has historically and presently always been several steps ahead in numerous ways. it is Microsoft that tends to copy Apple, not that other way around...and that has been the case for decades.

The overriding question is whether its worth it to pay a premium price for the hardware to use those innovations? Have to draw a line somewhere. for me, paying more than $5000 for a desktop computer is an absurd waste of money. Never mind that that car I drive depreciated by triple that amount the minute I drove it off the lot and I'll be lucky to drive it for 7-8 years where it will depreciate a whole lot more. I just can't stomach paying more than $5000 for a desktop computer, regardless of all the innovative features.


----------



## szczaw (Jun 28, 2021)

nolotrippen said:


> Whatever.


It's iWhatever.


----------



## nolotrippen (Jun 28, 2021)

szczaw said:


> It's iWhatever.


Nicely played!


----------



## szczaw (Jun 28, 2021)

nolotrippen said:


> Nicely played!


Ahh, thank you


----------



## Ben (Jun 28, 2021)

@Dewdman42 Sorry to say, but the same can be said the other way around. A lot of things were pioneered by Microsoft first - but often it was too early for its time and/or the hardware has not catched up yet.
Apple simply has perfected marketing and building narratives about how innovative they are, creating hype around their products.

(I'm not saying they do not innovate, but that it is far more complicated then simply stating "company A is the best because they are always a step ahead" - there are also a lot more companies then these two involved in shaping future technologies)


----------



## Dewdman42 (Jun 28, 2021)

Ben said:


> @Dewdman42 Sorry to say, but the same can be said the other way around. A lot of things were pioneered by Microsoft first



Such as?


----------



## Dewdman42 (Jun 28, 2021)

Ben said:


> then simply stating "company A is the best because they are always a step ahead" - there are also a lot more companies then these two involved in shaping future technologies)



By the way I did not say what you are falsely quoting me now. I did not say Apple is the best company. Wise up mate. I said Apple has been a few steps ahead of Microsoft in terms of innovation which is fundamentally true. The downside of Apple's approach is that they have not been able to maintain backwards compatibility to nearly the degree that Microsoft has. Wise up and stop misquoting people to support your religion.


----------



## Tim_Wells (Jun 28, 2021)

Who would of ever imagined this would turn into a Mac vs. PC thread?!


----------



## Dewdman42 (Jun 28, 2021)

Hey sorry I said anything...I was not meaning to start another religious war. Just keeping it real. I agree with the OP comments 100%..its just that this opinion has to include the fact that MacOS is still quite an elegant operating system. its the _cost_ that is the problem. And backwards compatibility has always been a problem from Apple. Microsoft is kind of pulling an "apple" with the Win11 requirements though...so there is that. I think its perfectly reasonable to discuss objectively the pros and cons of these operating systems. The dogmatic religious fan-boy false narratives are pointless.


----------



## Ben (Jun 28, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> Such as?


Here an unordered list of some things that I can think of right now:

- Internet Explorer (believe it or not, it was the best browser of its time when it was initially released)
- Windows Phone 7/8 had many features iOS and Android were missing even years later
- Plug'n'Play
- Windows CE
- Making a non-mobile OS usable via touch inout
- Tablet PCs
- Microsoft Office
- Multi-tasking
- Right click
- ...



Dewdman42 said:


> By the way I did not say what you are falsely quoting me now. I did not say Apple is the best company.


Sorry if this post somehow angered you, I did not meant you specifically with this quote. It's rather something I have heard so many times already from Apple die-hard fans. Sorry, should have made this more clear.


Dewdman42 said:


> I said Apple has been a few steps ahead of Microsoft in terms of innovation which is fundamentally true.


And I disagree. In certain points sure, but it is also true the other way around.



Dewdman42 said:


> The downside of Apple's approach is that they have not been able to maintain backwards compatibility to nearly the degree that Microsoft has.


That is definitly not the reason. It's simply profit optimization in most cases, because it can get really expensive to maintain backwards-compatibility.
Especially thanks to Apples tiny collection of supported hardware it should be really easy to make sure everything stays compatible. But they activly decide not to.



Dewdman42 said:


> I think its perfectly reasonable to discuss objectively the pros and cons of these operating systems.


That was exactly what I was trying to do before your agressive post.



Dewdman42 said:


> The dogmatic religious fan-boy false narratives are pointless.


Again, I agree. I would not call myself a fan-boy of any OS, I just prefer one over the other. Still, I'm allowed to express my opinion (at leat I hope so  )


----------



## Nimrod7 (Jun 28, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> And backwards compatibility has always been a problem from Apple.


Well, they could have ignored privacy, and securing different sensitive parts of the OS such as the kernel, and for sure they will have an OS that's fully backwards compatible. Most of the apps failing to work because they accessing stuff that they shouldn't do in the first place.

I understand that people are pissed off, but that evolution is necessary.

Kind of what Microsoft attempted with UAC but we all knew how that worked for them...


----------



## samphony (Jun 28, 2021)

Regarding resale value I purchased my mac pro 6,1 (vader helmet) in 2013 for around 3500€ and sold it a couple months ago for 3300€ (aftermarket upgrades to 12 core/128gb Ram/2tb ssd) so during these 8 years I’ve invested approximately 850€ for the upgrades)


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## CT (Jun 28, 2021)

The computer I'm using right now is the same one that I've been using since 2012, and all I've done to tweak it in that time is add more RAM and an SSD. It's getting a bit slow for 2021 standards but this is _by far_ a more pain-free experience than I've ever had with the "other" type of computer (and going by how often I see people on the other side gripe about things, I think little has changed), and that's really all that matters to me. I will not be more specific, so as to make the die-hards on both sides wonder.


----------



## mscp (Jun 28, 2021)

Ben said:


> Apple simply has perfected marketing and building narratives about how innovative they are, creating hype around their products.


Pretty much. For innovation, PARC, ILM, and General Magic come to mind.

Apple is just a CMD+C CMD+V + EDIT type of company. Innovation is not the right word for it.


----------



## Dewdman42 (Jun 28, 2021)

Ben said:


> Here an unordered list of some things that I can think of right now:
> 
> - Internet Explorer (believe it or not, it was the best browser of its time when it was initially released)



Hmm... Mozilla invented the web browser. Yes Microsoft fought over Netscape and was ahead of Mac in terms of web browsing, back at the time. There have been dozens of incremental innovations related to web browsing over the years since then... are you seriously still believing that Apple is following Microsoft here?




Ben said:


> - Windows Phone 7/8 had many features iOS and Android were missing even years later



Windows Phone? You must be kidding. but anyway that is not MS windows...if you want to expand into the conversation about phones, it is ridiculous to make the claim that anyone other than Apple is winning the smart phone war in complete spades.




Ben said:


> - Plug'n'Play



such as?




Ben said:


> - Tablet PCs



On this I agree.. Apple is being stubborn about a full featured MacOS tablet. Still...I will argue that iPad's are outselling Surface Pros by orders of magnitude...so...




Ben said:


> - Microsoft Office



This is not part of MS Windows. In fact it runs on MacOs too.

Do you want to argue about productivity software? what DAW did Microsoft create (or buy) and pretty much give away for free or nearly free? Answer = nothing of any significance.



Ben said:


> - Multi-tasking



Excuse me multi tasking was invented in UNIX, not ms Windows...early versions of windows had absolutely lousy multi-tasking functionality. Mac is based on UNIX by the way for quite some time.




Ben said:


> Sorry if this post somehow angered you,



again you are putting forth false claims for the sake of false logic and to be argumentative. Who said anything about being "angry". Why would you put forth such a false claim?




Ben said:


> That is definitly not the reason. It's simply profit optimization in most cases, because it can get really expensive to maintain backwards-compatibility.



Yes I think it has always been the reason. Apple has systematically pursued bigger and more radical changes in innovation at the expense of backwards compatibility. To argue the opposite is ignorant of history. They repeatedly threw out the baby with the bathwater over time in order to bring out radical new changes. Microsoft on the other hand always tried to keep things backwards compatible with a long ways back in time too. In my view some of the most hair brain aspects of Microsoft have to do with the fact that they would attempt to add new features while still not losing old compatibility..which is definitely very very challenging as you just said...and I think they did a very good job of maintaining backwards compability, but often their hands were tied such that new innovations were not quite what they ought to be. DirectX and numerous attempts simply never succeeded the way CoreAudio did, for example. I do appreciate the backwards compatibility aspect of MS Windows and I routinely complain about Apple's lack of it. But you are not being honest with yourself if you think that MS Windows has been able to keep up or surpass Apple's innovation while also keeping backwards compatibility.




Ben said:


> Especially thanks to Apples tiny collection of supported hardware it should be really easy to make sure everything stays compatible. But they activly decide not to.



No argument, but again, when you make radical new changes to API's, frameworks, and many other things that make Apple tech possible, its definitely a lot easier if you throw out the baby with the bathwater. Even with a reduced set of hardware, its not feasible to support endlessly old hardware.

Ms Windows is more of a lowest common denominator which is why its able to run on such a wide range of hardware, including ancient. But the downside is...the innovations are slower to come... There are pros and cons both ways mate.

And by the way, YOU responded and quoted me....not the other way around.... if you are going to quote me, then you better be ready to defend your false statements when I call them out.


----------



## Ben (Jun 28, 2021)

Phil81 said:


> Apple is just a CMD+C CMD+V + EDIT type of company. Innovation is not the right word for it.


Well, they do a pretty good job at it, and they have the right sense of how to not only create a cheap copy, but integrate it into the bigger picture and make it way more accessible, especially for casual users.
So imo they were also an important part in the development of IT systems we now know and use.


----------



## Alex Fraser (Jun 28, 2021)

Mike T said:


> The computer I'm using right now is the same one that I've been using since 2012, and all I've done to tweak it in that time is add more RAM and an SSD. It's getting a bit slow for 2021 standards but this is _by far_ a more pain-free experience than I've ever had with the "other" type of computer, and that's really all that matters to me. I will not be more specific, so as to make the die-hards on both sides wonder.


Pony up a Spitfire gift card, or I’ll tell the thread what machine you’re using…


----------



## mscp (Jun 28, 2021)

Ben said:


> Well, they do a pretty good job at it, and they have the right sense of how to not only create a cheap copy, but integrate it into the bigger picture and make it way more accessible, especially for casual users.
> So imo they were also an important part in the development of IT systems we now know and use.


Yes, they do a good job at "rehashing" what's been around for years, allowing any customer to easily use it. They have the upper hand in design and marketing -- granted. They use those two skills to classify themselves as premium, and charge more. Whether it's fair or not, depends on the customer him/herself.


----------



## Ben (Jun 28, 2021)

@Dewdman42 Sorry, I'm not going to discuss this with you, as it will just turn into another "Apple bad, Microsoft bad" discussion, and I'm not interested in that (and I think most people by now are already tired of such discussions all over the web).

I agree partially with some of your points, but also disagree on a lot of of other ones. Let's keep it this way.


----------



## CT (Jun 28, 2021)

Alex Fraser said:


> Pony up a Spitfire gift card, or I’ll tell the thread what machine you’re using…


_file photo




_


----------



## proxima (Jun 28, 2021)

szczaw said:


> I may be ignorant of the Apple ecosystem here, but didn't the default one-button mouse dictate how most software operated ? In effect, one couldn't get away from the one-button mouse just by purchasing a standard PC mouse.


Except that I told you that in current Mac OS, right click menus are ubiquitous, even within Apple's products.

The point is, the one-button mouse history is completely irrelevant for those who are deciding between Windows and Mac today (the purpose of the video that started the thread). You made up your mind decades ago, fine, I'm not trying to change it. But I wanted to ensure no one reading this thread was misled by you into thinking that one button mice were still a thing on Macs. They aren't at all, in software, 3rd party hardware, or even in Apple's own hardware, and haven't been for many many years.


----------



## Nico5 (Jun 28, 2021)

Pre-amble: This post is intended for those individuals, curious about reconsidering their current platform(s) and those who may be interested in some high level pro's and con's in general. -- I'm not trying to convert anyone to switch away from their chosen platform(s). If you're happy enough, keep using what you're using. - Each platform has its advantages and disadvantages. But even those are relative to your own, very personal use-case and past experience, including potential emotional baggage from that. All of those are perfectly valid to run your own life. But they don't invalidate other people's priorities and experiences.

I have considerable empathy with anyone who is currently married to their platform of choice, because of one or more negative experiences with the other. - I have horror stories to tell about every platform I've ever used. The logical conclusion might be to not use anything anymore. But I'm not ready for living off the grid, so my world keeps being woefully imperfect. 

*My current setup*

I'm currently using on a daily basis:

Win10
music making
video making

Linux (RH and Debian derivatives)
server stuff
maker stuff

MacOS and iOS
everything else


Windows

like:
run older stuff (software and hardware) on a current OS - many ancient 32bit midi apps still work great with current Win10.
custom build and upgrade my own computer

dislike:
forced upgrades sometimes temporarily breaking things
dodgy multi-monitor support
extra work to keep secure and private

Linux

like:
free or low cost
generally solid for server stuff (though not perfect)

dislike:
limited and/or tricky hardware support
too much work to have decent desktop

MacOS and iOS

like:
privacy
smoothest multi-device integration
relatively polished (though not perfect)
free or inexpensive Apple software
walled garden keeps more crap out (but not everything)
the M1 CPU and surrounding architecture
Apple trackpads

dislike:
lack of backward compatibility (I'm still pissed off about the headphone jack)
disproportionately expensive for more powerful hardware
walled garden prevents me from doing some stuff I would like
Apple mice (I always use 3rd party mice).


If I could only have one platform, I'd have to change quite a few of my current approaches and habits and get used to living with more crap.

p.s. Fanboy-ism seems so 1980s -- Atari vs Amiga anyone?


----------



## szczaw (Jun 28, 2021)

proxima said:


> Except that I told you that in current Mac OS, right click menus are ubiquitous, even within Apple's products.
> 
> The point is, the one-button mouse history is completely irrelevant for those who are deciding between Windows and Mac today (the purpose of the video that started the thread). You made up your mind decades ago, fine, I'm not trying to change it. But I wanted to ensure no one reading this thread was misled by you into thinking that one button mice were still a thing on Macs. They aren't at all, in software, 3rd party hardware, or even in Apple's own hardware, and haven't been for many many years.


I used a question mark and past tense. That's not spreading misconceptions. With the mouse, I was clearly talking about history and hinting at the attitude behind Apple's products, the attitude that persists to this day.


----------



## Wunderhorn (Jun 28, 2021)

Nimrod7 said:


> - Lock the damn boot SSD for the secure enclave, but why no NVMEs for secondary SSDs on Mac Pro?


You can. You just need to get your own carrier card but that's not a big problem.



Nimrod7 said:


> - Can you really build a PC as silent as a Mac Pro? I failed too many times.



Yes, you can. E.g. Deltatronic offers completely silent workstations.


----------



## Alex Fraser (Jun 28, 2021)

Nico5 said:


> p.s. Fanboy-ism seems so 1980s -- Atari vs Amiga anyone?


Now now. The Atari STe ruled the roost there and you know it. 
See also the late nineties/early noughties sampler wars: Akai vs E-Mu.
(won by Akai, of course.)


----------



## A.Dern (Jun 28, 2021)

South Thames said:


> I'm always impressed by what a fluent and effective communicator Ann-Kathrin is.
> 
> That said, I'm afraid she lost me when said PCs look better, and the proof she offered looked like a gaudy prop from Tron. We're just in different aesthetic universes I'm afraid.


What can I say... I like computers that look like a unicorn vomited all over it.


----------



## Nico5 (Jun 28, 2021)

Nimrod7 said:


> My ratio working on PC's is 70% vs 30% mac (just music, and coding).


As detailed in my prior post in this thread, I'm working the other way round: Music on Win10 and everything else on MacOS/iOS.  



Nimrod7 said:


> midi routing flexibility and other aspects of the OS which I can't get my head around working on PCs.


Thanks to loopMIDI, Midi routing hasn't been a problem for me on Win10 for many, many years. And I'm not sure if something like the most excellent MidiOX even exists for the Mac. 



Nimrod7 said:


> I also experienced that a Windows app is locking the audio driver, and is no possible to have another app sharing it (is there a walkaround on this?).


True for some ASIO drivers, but since I've switched to an RME audio interface, this isn't a problem anymore.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Jun 28, 2021)

Hardware-wise, especially from a cost standpoint, PC has the edge. However, you can't discount user interface preferences, which are very subjective. And it's not to say either is better in that regard - OS X frustrated the hell out of me when I first moved over from Windows, but now Windows frustrates me. But that's down to more learned habits than anything I think nowadays.

Wolfgang Kundras was mentioning in an OPUS thread somewhere else that coding for efficient audio applications was easier or more effective on OS X than Windows. Given his experience, I'll take his word on it. With the M1 chip, I imagine Mac-based performance is going to significantly outpace PCs for the next few years until Intel / AMD / Microsoft catch up.


----------



## Nico5 (Jun 28, 2021)

A.Dern said:


> What can I say... I like computers that look like a unicorn vomited all over it.


It was nice to see your level headed video!

Just curious: How come you waited so long between the making of the video and publishing it? i.e. the M1 announcement is about a year old. The M1 potentially throws a wrench into my current platform preferences. So I'm delaying some upgrades for a little while longer.


----------



## A.Dern (Jun 28, 2021)

Nico5 said:


> Pre-amble: This post is intended for those individuals, curious about reconsidering their current platform(s) and those who may be interested in some high level pro's and con's in general. -- I'm not trying to convert anyone to switch away from their chosen platform(s). If you're happy enough, keep using what you're using. - Each platform has its advantages and disadvantages. But even those are relative to your own, very personal use-case and past experience, including potential emotional baggage from that. All of those are perfectly valid to run your own life. But they don't invalidate other people's priorities and experiences.
> 
> I have considerable empathy with anyone who is currently married to their platform of choice, because of one or more negative experiences with the other. - I have horror stories to tell about every platform I've ever used. The logical conclusion might be to not use anything anymore. But I'm not ready for living off the grid, so my world keeps being woefully imperfect.
> 
> ...


Stop being so reasonable. People here don't like that.


----------



## Dewdman42 (Jun 28, 2021)

Nico5 said:


> Thanks to loopMIDI, Midi routing hasn't been a problem for me on Win10 for many, many years. And I'm not sure if something like the most excellent MidiOX even exists for the Mac.


There are numerous things available on OSX for that sort of thing...MacOS IAC, built into CoreMidi, makes it very easy to route midi between apps, and there are numerous apps that do midi manipulation and can access IAC midi ports, etc..including scripting languages such as Python and other dedicated midi manipulation tools which may or may not have scripting abilities also... MidiPipe, TransMidiFier, PlugNScript, SoundigyMidiLab....to name a few. Not to mention that you can easily just use a number of DAW's and plugin hosts, host some midi plugins inside it and use IAC to basically use that host as a dedicate midi processor, etc.. many options...


----------



## A.Dern (Jun 28, 2021)

Nico5 said:


> It was nice to see your level headed video!
> 
> Just curious: How come you waited so long between the making of the video and publishing it? i.e. the M1 announcement is about a year old. The M1 potentially throws a wrench into my current platform preferences. So I'm delaying some upgrades for a little while longer.


Thank you! I like both platforms a lot even though I'm skewing a little towards PC right now (which might change again in the future - I'm going with whatever serves me best in the moment). I'm still using both which I think - as you laid out above so eloquently - is the least painful way to go. The same way I'm using multiple DAWs to get the best of each world. The more flexible my setup, the better, because I have more options to solve any problem I might encounter along the way. As for why I waited so long - look no further than this thread. I knew I was opening a can of worms with this. Plus I was (and still am) on 3 different movies simultaneously for the past 2 months so time is not abundant right now to take care of YouTube stuff unfortunately.


----------



## InLight-Tone (Jun 28, 2021)

Way to gun for views. Smart lady...


----------



## A.Dern (Jun 28, 2021)

InLight-Tone said:


> Way to gun for views. Smart lady...


Just wait for that Spitfire hate video I have in the works right now... that'll set this community on fire!

*in case this needs to be said, there is no such video in the works - I do not hate Spitfire, in fact I'm using their stuff all over one of my movies right now*


----------



## proxima (Jun 28, 2021)

szczaw said:


> I used a question mark and past tense. That's not spreading misconceptions. With the mouse, I was clearly talking about history and hinting at the attitude behind Apple's products, the attitude that persists to this day.


Your original post had no question marks and was misleading. This is what I'm referring to:


szczaw said:


> I never had a Mac. I could never understand the appeal of one-button mouse.


As for Apple's "attitude", I'm not sure why you think you can speak to it with much experience when you've clearly barely used Macs and talk about limitations from the early 2000s. I use Windows, Linux, and Mac every day, and each have their strengths and weaknesses. But no platform has an edge when it comes to supporting multiple buttons on mice extensively.


----------



## szczaw (Jun 28, 2021)

proxima said:


> Your original post had no question marks and was misleading. This is what I'm referring to:
> 
> As for Apple's "attitude", I'm not sure why you think you can speak to it with much experience when you've clearly barely used Macs and talk about limitations from the early 2000s. I use Windows, Linux, and Mac every day, and each have their strengths and weaknesses. But no platform has an edge when it comes to supporting multiple buttons on mice extensively.


I think you may be taking being a Mac user too seriously.


----------



## szczaw (Jun 28, 2021)

proxima said:


> Your original post had no question marks and was misleading. This is what I'm referring to:


That was a factual statement


----------



## szczaw (Jun 28, 2021)

proxima said:


> As for Apple's "attitude", I'm not sure why you think you can speak to it with much experience when you've clearly barely used Macs and talk about limitations from the early 2000s. I use Windows, Linux, and Mac every day, and each have their strengths and weaknesses. But no platform has an edge when it comes to supporting multiple buttons on mice extensively.


Over the years, I've heard Mac users bitching about forced upgrades. Nonstandard features and 'novelties' forcing users to upgrade or buy adapters. Nobody pulled this kind of number on me in the PC world. I have memories of Macs providing the one and only 'superior' user experience that did not work for people in crucial moments. They may not be recent memories, but why should that stop me from commenting ?


----------



## Nico5 (Jun 28, 2021)

A.Dern said:


> As for why I waited so long - look no further than this thread.


haha - yes, I can understand that!



A.Dern said:


> Stop being so reasonable. People here don't like that.


thanks!  -- I'm still somewhat new around here


----------



## gives19 (Jun 28, 2021)

A.Dern said:


> Just wait for that Spitfire hate video I have in the works right now... that'll set this community on fire!
> 
> *in case this needs to be said, there is no such video in the works - I do not hate Spitfire, in fact I'm using their stuff all over one of my movies right now*


Hang in there. It's a toolbox. Just use what works for you-.


----------



## Nico5 (Jun 28, 2021)

szczaw said:


> ... forcing users to upgrade ... Nobody pulled this kind of number on me in the PC world.


I also make music on Windows.

But I've had my music setup broken many times during automated (forced) Windows 10 automatic updates (even when using the 12 month delay setting). 

And in my experience on a Mac, it never has updated without me initiating it.

However, if you really meant to say, that Windows generally has better backwards compatibility across major operating system releases, I would agree with that.


----------



## szczaw (Jun 28, 2021)

Nico5 said:


> I also make music on Windows.
> 
> But I've had my music setup broken many times during automated (forced) Windows 10 automatic updates (even when using the 12 month delay setting).
> 
> ...


That sucks big time, and it's one reason I'm still on Win 7. At least you didn't have to pay to upgrade.


----------



## Nico5 (Jun 28, 2021)

szczaw said:


> That sucks big time, and its one of the reasons I'm still on Win 7. At least you didn't have to pay to upgrade.


... no wonder you think PC is so much more stable than a Mac! 

But if you ask around, you'll find that for Mac users not upgrading, it's also incredibly stable.


----------



## szczaw (Jun 28, 2021)

Nico5 said:


> ... no wonder you think PC is so much more stable than a Mac!
> 
> But if you ask around, you'll find that for Mac users not upgrading, it's also incredibly stable.


I don't have any strong attachment to a metal box with software. If I'll see a compelling reason to get a Mac (OSX being one) that's what I'll do.


----------



## Bollen (Jun 28, 2021)

Ubuntu Studio anyone...? 👀


----------



## Nate Johnson (Jun 29, 2021)

It's a tough debate for sure. I'm still super happy with my Nov 2020 intel mac purchase. It took a year to decide. 

Pricing out both platforms looking for a best-bang-for-the buck scenario within each category, the money ended up being almost exactly the same. An 8 core based machine in Mac was $2500~ and a 12 core based machine in PC (the most practical cost-to-value CPUs at the time) was also $2500~. 

In the end Apple's familiarity and set and forget (mostly) OS lifestyle is worth the _perceived_ difference in 'down' spec. This machine frickin' flies. 

Within the Mac choices, it was tough not to 'wait' for full-spec M1's, but I'm glad I didn't, seeing how we STILL haven't actually seen those. With the way I run my machine, and the 'speed' at which the hardware _isn't_ changing, I'm confident I won't be forced to upgrade any sooner than normal (which for me is like 5-6 years).

That being said, it will be interesting to see where the computer world is at that point. I will for sure though remain open-minded to the PC options!


----------



## Ben (Jun 29, 2021)

Nate Johnson said:


> Pricing out both platforms looking for a best-bang-for-the buck scenario within each category, the money ended up being almost exactly the same. An 8 core based machine in Mac was $2500~ and a 12 core based machine in PC (the most practical cost-to-value CPUs at the time) was also $2500~.


I upgraded my system in december 2020. Not counting the re-used SSDs I paid 1700€ for an 32 core CPU, 64 GB RAM, Case, and power supply (+240€ for GPU).

I'm not sure if the high price for a 12 core system is caused by the current chip crises, or if you choose some kind of Xeon CPU (I would not recommend these unless you really know why you need those).
12 cores for 2500$ is imo a really bad value considering the options.


----------



## from_theashes (Jun 29, 2021)

Ben said:


> Yes! Of course it will cost extra (not nearly as much as you need to get a Apple system). Most of the times when I talk to Apple-is-better-period people, they are willing to pay thousands of dollars for an Apple device, but are not willing to pay even $1000 for a Windows machine. You can't expect the same experience on such machines.


And so many times I talked to „pro-pc“-people arguing that „you can get the same power for so much cheaper on a pc“, without even debating that macs are much more of a premium product, than entry-price-pc-hardware. In the end it’s the same in both worlds: you want premium? You got to pay for it. High end pc‘s aren’t cheap at all.
For me it comes down to software, user-experience and eco-system. I love Apples eco-system with Mac, iPad, iPhone, etc all working together flawlessly. And since Logic is my DAW of choice, I think I‘ll stick with Apple for at least the next decade.


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## quickbrownf0x (Jun 29, 2021)

pixelcrave said:


> Professionally (as a UX designer), I use both Mac and PC at work, so I'm very well versed and comfortable using both. But I do use and prefer Mac personally for design and photography works, and naturally also for this hobby.
> 
> One thing that often got lost in the discussion is about cost of ownership and high resale value of Apple machines— which by default seems to always favor PC (cheaper to acquire in general). For comparison, I bought a 2012 MacBook Pro around $2200, and sold it in 2018 for $700. That's 6 years (six!) of ownership for around $250 a year with no major costs for repairs & troubleshooting.
> 
> ...


Off-topic; greetings from a fellow designer. I thought that my friend @Markrs and I were the only one of our kind here, but this is cool.  Anybody else here working in UX(R)/the Innovation Woo-space? 

On-topic; The only reason I own a Mac (Mini) is so I can connect Videoslave (now Video Sync) 5 to Cubase. Apart from getting the occasionaly OS update, that's all it does, really.

I'm also lucky to have already transitioned out of hands-on design work around the time when Sketch was introduced/got really popular, so no real need for me to jump over to Mac for that, either. Very happy about that, because - man, I hate Sketch.  

And now, I think our field is moving over to Figma (or whatever comes next) anyway, which runs on both Mac and Windows. So again- no real need to switch. Good thing I stepped out of that rat race a long time ago and let others worry about stuff like that.


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## Nate Johnson (Jun 29, 2021)

Ben said:


> I upgraded my system in december 2020. Not counting the re-used SSDs I paid 1700€ for an 32 core CPU, 64 GB RAM, Case, and power supply (+240€ for GPU).
> 
> I'm not sure if the high price for a 12 core system is caused by the current chip crises, or if you choose some kind of Xeon CPU (I would not recommend these unless you really know why you need those).
> 12 cores for 2500$ is imo a really bad value considering the options.


Full disclosure, $2500 covered everything from cpu to ssd(s) monitor, keyboard and mouse.


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## Nimrod7 (Jun 29, 2021)

quickbrownf0x said:


> Anybody else here working in UX(R)/the Innovation Woo-space?


I used to, but nowdays other team members are handling UX. :D 
Remember the days were we migrated from illustrator to Sketch (which I used to love btw), and now we are all Figma indeed. 

On topic, I bet each platform have exclusives, apart from Sketch, for Macs Final Cut and Xcode are apps that are forcing people choosing the platform. I guess is what you need, 3ds Max and Solidworks on PCs are apps that entire industries relying on.


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## quickbrownf0x (Jun 29, 2021)

Nimrod7 said:


> I used to, but nowdays other team members are handling UX. :D
> Remember the days were we migrated from illustrator to Sketch (which I used to love btw), and now we are all Figma indeed.
> 
> On topic, I bet each platform have exclusives, apart from Sketch, for Macs Final Cut and Xcode are apps that are forcing people choosing the platform. I guess is what you need, 3ds Max and Solidworks on PCs are apps that entire industries relying on.


Cool! Fun to see others in our line of work being creative in another way, even though I feel making music and/or creating (tailored user) experiences are actually quite similar in nature, especially if you're thinking about it from say, a storytelling perspective, which is what I tend to do. What do you think, @Markrs?


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## Bollen (Jun 29, 2021)

Ben said:


> I upgraded my system in december 2020. Not counting the re-used SSDs I paid 1700€ for an 32 core CPU, 64 GB RAM, Case, and power supply (+240€ for GPU).
> 
> I'm not sure if the high price for a 12 core system is caused by the current chip crises, or if you choose some kind of Xeon CPU (I would not recommend these unless you really know why you need those).
> 12 cores for 2500$ is imo a really bad value considering the options.


Similar specs here, but I went for the i9, did it in November instead and it cost me £1300.


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## pixelcrave (Jun 29, 2021)

quickbrownf0x said:


> Off-topic; greetings from a fellow designer. I thought that my friend @Markrs and I were the only one of our kind here, but this is cool.  Anybody else here working in UX(R)/the Innovation Woo-space?
> 
> On-topic; The only reason I own a Mac (Mini) is so I can connect Videoslave (now Video Sync) 5 to Cubase. Apart from getting the occasionaly OS update, that's all it does, really.
> 
> ...


Hello there! Indeed it's fun to meet yet another of our kind here  And yes @Markrs was one of the firsts to greet me here in the forum – love your alias BTW.

Yeah, we (at work) are also transitioning to Figma — agreed that Sketch is so bloated, I'm not a fan. Heck I still use old fashion Axure sometimes (gasp) if a more robust prototyping is needed  But yeah, if anything we as UX-ers should be used to the fact that different user needs and use cases will understandably call for different OS, platform and/or ecosystem. Who knows if for some twisted reason Chrome OS takes over — joking, but... till then, carpa diem!

Cheers mate!


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## quickbrownf0x (Jun 29, 2021)

pixelcrave said:


> But yeah, if anything we as UX-ers should be used to the fact that different user needs and use cases will understandably call for different OS, platform and/or ecosystem.


There you go. 

I reverted back to pencil and paper, myself btw. And lots and lots of Post-Its. But then I'm an old fart; I can get away with it. Well, they let me, anyway.

Also, I do a lot of pointing at stuff and I'll go 'Cool, let's see if it holds up with actual users.' and then go for lunch - I'm very good at that.


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## pixelcrave (Jun 29, 2021)

quickbrownf0x said:


> And lots and lots of Post-Its.


Yes! On behalf of 3M, I thank you for being a loyal customer (I work for 3M Design)


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## quickbrownf0x (Jun 29, 2021)

pixelcrave said:


> Yes! On behalf of 3M, I thank you for being a loyal customer (I work for 3M Design)


Awesome! I wonder if tools like Miro and Mural are having any impact on 3M's little Post-It empire. But hey - that's very off-topic. Good to know you're over there, btw. Might come in handy, muhaha.


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## fourier (Jun 29, 2021)

Hang on, are y'all not using your high-end computers for gaming? Is it purely dedicated to composing? It's never been a discussion about Mac or PC here due to that


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## Markrs (Jun 29, 2021)

quickbrownf0x said:


> Cool! Fun to see others in our line of work being creative in another way, even though I feel making music and/or creating (tailored user) experiences are actually quite similar in nature, especially if you're thinking about it from say, a storytelling perspective, which is what I tend to do. What do you think, @Markrs?


Everything is narrative! When I have to talk to stakeholders I have a clear narrative to offer them.


pixelcrave said:


> Heck I still use old fashion Axure sometimes (gasp)


Still use Axure (mainly work in financial service designing b2b systems which often includes forms and processing which Axure is string at). I started in UX 21 years ago (was an Information Architect back then) using paper and pencil then take that into Photoshop or fireworks to add in all the details. 

My current job doesn't ask much of me, which is good for having time for music (pay isn't the best though), but now thinking of going contract.


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## Pictus (Jun 29, 2021)

Nico5 said:


> I also make music on Windows.
> 
> But I've had my music setup broken many times during automated (forced) Windows 10 automatic updates (even when using the 12 month delay setting).





szczaw said:


> That sucks big time, and it's one reason I'm still on Win 7. At least you didn't have to pay to upgrade.



You may like





Uh oh... Windows 11 Coming Soon - Official Announcement on June 24th


The guy who built my PC turned off automatic updates. He will test the new Windows and Ill ask him a month or 2 after it is released if it is safe to upgrade. Serious after-sales support for all his clients.




vi-control.net


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## quickbrownf0x (Jun 30, 2021)

Markrs said:


> Everything is narrative! When I have to talk to stakeholders I have a clear narrative to offer them.
> 
> Still use Axure (mainly work in financial service designing b2b systems which often includes forms and processing which Axure is string at). I started in UX 21 years ago (was an Information Architect back then) using paper and pencil then take that into Photoshop or fireworks to add in all the details.
> 
> My current job doesn't ask much of me, which is good for having time for music (pay isn't the best though), but now thinking of going contract.


Mark, you lazy bastard!


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## quickbrownf0x (Jun 30, 2021)

fourier said:


> Hang on, are y'all not using your high-end computers for gaming? Is it purely dedicated to composing? It's never been a discussion about Mac or PC here due to that


Yeah, all my machines are purely for composing. They run Cubase, VEPro and Videoslave - that's it.

I do all my Cities:Skylines gaming on my work (Surface) laptop while @Markrs 's on the bog, trying to flush down a floater.


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## topaz (Nov 14, 2021)

Summing up…mac vs pc debate will go on an on.

But really it’s how the machine serves you at the present time.

Does one want a foot always in the future to keep their daw up to date (logic users).

Does one want to have a foot in the past and the future. (……….)


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 14, 2021)

There is no right or wrong answer there are pros and cons on both sides of the argument. Pick your poison.


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## dxmachina (Nov 14, 2021)

My daily-driver preference is for macOS, but I have both Mac and Windows systems (and many VMs) in my studio now and really enjoy the maturity of both platforms. As a teenager I was a small and inconsequential (but enthusiastic) part of the external Windows 95 beta team. I didn't touch a Mac until many years later.

Since I've been involved in VI development for the last decade, my amount of time writing professionally has shrunk to basically zero -- so my perspective here may be a bit different. But after thousands and thousands of customer emails I can say pretty solidly that _in my experience_ the issues (those that are of a hardware/OS nature and not specific to a VI or library) skew perhaps 70/30 Win/Mac (and that may be a bit generous to Windows). This isn't really surprising - with greater choices and options come more possibilities for issues. Take it FWIW - I imagine a larger dev like Avid or Steinberg would have more data and things maybe look different? From a lower-level tech perspective I've found CoreMIDI and CoreAudio to have significant advantages over what Windows offers (but I would yield this opinion quickly to someone who does more low level audio programming on both platforms).

If you are fairly technically adept (or have access to an assistant/tech who is) it honestly doesn't matter beyond your preferences and wallet. If you are on your own (as most of us are starting out) I do think macOS still has a _significant_ advantage, and that is my suggestion when my opinion has been asked in the last few years. Strictly from a pro audio perspective I see a lot less problems with macOS and they are generally much easier to resolve.

I do understand the difficult value proposition. Again, if you like tech and aren't scared to get your hands dirty, building a PC is an enjoyable experience that can net you a much better price/performance ratio. But if you are not it's still a mine field of junk PCs out there (nothing to do with Windows). Of course you can buy a pro DAW workstation - but the value proposition advantage basically goes out the window when you do.

Hopefully no enemies have been made as a result of this post.


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## GeOM (Nov 14, 2021)

You mentioned fairly technically persons. About that, if you're a fairly technical person, the choice is definitely inclined towards PC imo. It's mostly about the cost efficiency as you said but you can customize one in every possible way, tailored to your needs in performance, budget, shape size and color. And more beyond that, if you want it silent, like some others complain about it, sure, try watercooling or a good case and fans, or if you want it small and quiet try an APU (5600G and 5700G are great) if you don't need an amazing video card to make noise and occupy space. That goes for Windows as well, you can have and not bother you for years if you know what are you doing, or try the LTSC alternative, which is the same Windows but without the bloatware and it doesn't force you into updates (two big things that people complain about it), which is designed for businesses rather than home users.

If you're not a technical person, expect to pay a lot more for not knowing because every possible prebuild PC out there has something that bothers me personally, components that some companies try to get rid of, or the price is way up that it should be. In a way it's kind of the same as paying Apple to serve you with a silver spoon. Windows can sometimes be a nightmare if you're not a technical person, although the problems went significantly less over the years for common people. So if you know nothing about it and you don't worry too much on the budget, why not try Apple since it's one shop stop.

But there is more to it that price and other things. Apple products are fairly wide spread in North America or UK and some other parts. I live in a random country in Europe and there are lots of countries in Europe like mine where PC are overwhelmingly predominant. Worse is, lots of these countries don't have cities where they can repair their Apple products, from phones to desktops while PC shops are everywhere. Even with phones, which doesn't really matter what you pick (except the price/performance), Apple is way more popular with phones here but still has less that a quarter of total (service) phone users in my country, and it's mostly those that buy it for brand and status. So that nice synergy (Mac, iphone, ipad etc), which is good for less than technical people, is kind of lost around here. With some Apple products you can't just randomly buy something and expect to replace it at home within the hour or day, and it's worse if you really need it for work. The repairability issue with Apple products is something that bothers me personally. Since I've built PC's (and servers too) since the 90s I can't help it, it's like second nature to try to repair a PC by myself. Lastly for me is the kind of work you're doing. I also worked in 3D (modeling, rendering) and I can't imagine working with Apple there, just no, the industry is already biased towards pc's.

One more thing, since people brought up M1, which is now not the latest. M1 compares in some ways similar with a 5800X, in terms of single thread, but it shows its weakness when it comes to multiple cores and some other applications that require them. ARM chips existed before Apple dabbled into it but the giants didn't switch because there are still things that these chips aren't that good at and aren't scalable. The future might be hybrid, which some of these giants already dabbled into, although Apple doesn't have a license for x86/64 architecture. Sure, Apple is great at marketing, comparing their chips with Intel chips, but they had to go 5nm and they compare it with a 14nm that is many years old already, or they had to put their memory into chips, which is kind of a downside in terms of repairing or upgrading, or comparing the power consumption which is very bad for Intel. They also had to tailer their OS around that chip, which in a way is kind of nice, while Windows is more generic and for multiple machines and options. If you want to beat Apple performance or limitations (RAM etc), it's not that hard, I'd go with a Threadripper, or why not go absurd and get an AMD Epyc, but these options are beyond a composer's need.

Anyway, I think the real talk is in the mobile world. When it comes to laptops, things are different. I worked with laptops but I never bought one for myself. It's mostly because I didn't have a need for, besides having a much greater cost and much worse performance than PC's and various other issues. And it's more than that. Laptops are notoriously expensive, that much that Apple is not something to scratch off from the list. Laptops are not as easy to repair as PC's are and spare parts aren't everywhere. So pretty much like Apple. They also have huge issues with the heat and the performance scale because of it, and their battery, especially Intel chips since they are almost double power hungry than AMD. So here is where ARM architecture shines, same as in phones and other devices. Forget other things, power efficiency is the number one selling point from a productivity point of view, since you get more out of your battery and the performance doesn't decrease because it's getting hotter, and of course the noise of your fans if you live in a warm climate. So Apple seems clearly the choice here, but that if you need to be mobile. I don't get the people that buy laptops and always have them in one place, usually at home or work. That's why desktops exist and these are more money/performance efficient.

I guess one more thing is worth mentioning. PC doesn't necessarily equals Windows. You can install Win, Linux or even macOS on PC, and the same can be installed on M1.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Nov 14, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> Give her a medal


Much of this depends on how complex and detailed your sessions are and whether you are running reverbs and other things on an external Pro tools rig or another sytem.

I don't know what computers she is using but you can actually reach 60-70% and beyond easily on many of the latest systems once you start using high quality synths and effects. 

Not sure how anyone is a not able to go beyond 10% on the new macs. That doesn't sound right either. 

RAM and storage of course is not an issue and they are kind of unrelated here.


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## Pictus (Nov 15, 2021)

A very good PC guide for audio from Pete(Microsoft)








Unofficial Windows 10 Audio Workstation build and tweak guide - Part 1


Part 1 of 3. Tweaks and optimizations for getting the most out of your Windows 10 workstation, when using with a DAW.




devblogs.microsoft.com





The ones I use





Nvidia Driver, no latency anymore?


Hi all! We all know that AMD drivers have from far, less latency than Nvidia drivers, and for that reason we all recommand an AMD graphic card for audio working. But recently i have dealt with a new install on a PC with an Nvidia graphic card. And when i updated to the latest driver i saw an...




vi-control.net


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## b_elliott (Nov 15, 2021)

szczaw said:


> HP-HIL Mouse from 1984


I learned of the real MM only during the most recent baseball World Series. 
Houston BB Mgr Dusty Baker called Jose Altuve "Mighty Mouse". 
Altuve (who is as short as they come) asked who was that. 
Rusty clarified, "Oh he is baaaaaaad." 
My boi #27:


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## b_elliott (Nov 15, 2021)

Tanuj Tiku said:


> Much of this depends on how complex and detailed your sessions are and whether you are running reverbs and other things on an external Pro tools rig or another sytem.
> 
> I don't know what computers she is using but you can actually reach 60-70% and beyond easily on many of the latest systems once you start using high quality synths and effects.
> 
> ...


I wondered myself. I am unfamiliar with VEPro, could that be the reason?

Last night I had my pc choking with 10 tracks using Knifonium each with lots of fx. At 65% I had to resort to track freeze. My pc is 5 years old Dell XPS 8700, i7-4770 @3.40GHz.


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## GeOM (Nov 15, 2021)

There is difference as night and day between samples and synths. Those samples are memory cashed by VE Pro and are served as a stream. They need minimum processing power. Synths, unless they are ROMplers (basically samples), they are like live performances, and they are very CPU hungry, causing spikes and even crashes. Worse if you add tons of effects, which needs more processing on top. 
That CPU you have was discontinued in the same year that you bought it iirc, and it's almost twice as old architecture. Today's CPUs are substantially a lot more powerful than that quad core you have.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Nov 15, 2021)

b_elliott said:


> I wondered myself. I am unfamiliar with VEPro, could that be the reason?
> 
> Last night I had my pc choking with 10 tracks using Knifonium each with lots of fx. At 65% I had to resort to track freeze. My pc is 5 years old Dell XPS 8700, i7-4770 @3.40GHz.


Synths can bring down very large systems as well. It all depends on how many synths you are running with reverbs, plugins etc.

If you have a template with 1,000 tracks all loaded with different orchestral instrument patches with 128 GB RAM, with a few reverbs, EQ's and saturation plugins (without oversampling), then it should be relatively easy on the system. Most of the grunt work here is on SSD's and RAM.

However, if you have 150 tracks with 5-10 different reverbs, synths, lots of percussion with processing, EQ's, compressors and saturation plugs etc with sample and audio modeling thrown in as well - add live recorded tracks running their own processing - add complex bussing, then the CPU will be stressed.

Not even Apple's new M1 can run all of that at 10%.

Each project will be different. If I am writing very complex trailer music with lots of different synths and processing then the system will hit the high numbers. But for example, I am working on a film right now which has 99% orchestral stuff and all of it is going to be replaced by live musicians, so I don't really have to make it shine beyond a point. In this case, the CPU is not so stressed even if I add 300 tracks with upward of 50 GB RAM usage.

PS: There are other parameters to think about like - ITB mastering in the same session for clients. This can add more. What buffer size are we talking here? 

Cubase can have different results if you stack multiple plugins in the same chain. It will cost you. Buss processing is preferred in many cases but unavoidable in some specific cases.


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## b_elliott (Nov 16, 2021)

Tanuj Tiku said:


> Synths can bring down very large systems as well. It all depends on how many synths you are running with reverbs, plugins etc.
> 
> If you have a template with 1,000 tracks all loaded with different orchestral instrument patches with 128 GB RAM, with a few reverbs, EQ's and saturation plugins (without oversampling), then it should be relatively easy on the system. Most of the grunt work here is on SSD's and RAM.
> 
> However, if you have 150 tracks with 5-10 different reverbs, synths, lots of percussion with processing, EQ's, compressors and saturation plugs etc with sample and audio modeling thrown in as well - add live recorded tracks running their own processing - add complex bussing, then the CPU will be stressed.


I appreciate your detailed reply. High track count is a different world from my hobby experiences; but, in your example of 150 tracks with a CPU stressed out, would you resort to bounce/freeze tracks, or, is bounce-to-audio simply a part of the workflow as your scoring progressed (ie. brass scored then bounce; percussion done then bounce, etc.)?
Cheers, Bill


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## Tanuj Tiku (Nov 16, 2021)

b_elliott said:


> I appreciate your detailed reply. High track count is a different world from my hobby experiences; but, in your example of 150 tracks with a CPU stressed out, would you resort to bounce/freeze tracks, or, is bounce-to-audio simply a part of the workflow as your scoring progressed (ie. brass scored then bounce; percussion done then bounce, etc.)?
> Cheers, Bill


Well, in my examples when I said 'stressed', it does not mean overloaded. I have an 18-core intel machine OC'd to 4.2 Ghz, so I am not expecting to completely max it out anytime soon. 

If you are maxing out your CPU then both rendering and freezing tracks and saving resources everywhere possible is a good idea. 

You may want to think of buss processing instead of individual processing, if you are not doing that already. You can have just 1 or 2 reverbs for the orchestra, apply processing on section buss etc. Look into more efficient plugins that don't cost you CPU cycles. 

I think you can get a lot done today with even stock plugins in your DAW. Consider using EQ's built into the channel. Most DAW's have very good ones. 

Hopefully, with a combination of things, you will find some relief.


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## GeOM (Nov 16, 2021)

On old machines, an alternative is to have your project split into multiple stages/projects. First one is just for composing, no effects applied at all or bare minimum that your machine can handle. The next project is with the rendered tracks from your previous session, where you can try and apply effects and mix it properly and have busses, and it won't stress much your CPU since all your tracks are wavs. Then another projects for final touches or some attempt at mastering. You can split it in whichever way you want but your machine can handle it better this way, when you divide the work instead of doing it in the same project. If you need to do a composing change, edit your first project again and render it and then it's easy to work in the next one since you already have the effects in place. Same for every stage.


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## b_elliott (Nov 16, 2021)

GeOM said:


> On old machines, an alternative is to have your project split into multiple stages/projects. First one is just for composing, no effects applied at all or bare minimum that your machine can handle. The next project is with the rendered tracks from your previous session, where you can try and apply effects and mix it properly and have busses, and it won't stress much your CPU since all your tracks are wavs. Then another projects for final touches or some attempt at mastering. You can split it in whichever way you want but your machine can handle it better this way, when you divide the work instead of doing it in the same project. If you need to do a composing change, edit your first project again and render it and then it's easy to work in the next one since you already have the effects in place. Same for every stage.


I like this workflow. Before reading your post, I tried a variation of this last night; however, currently have somewhat of a mess. 

Projects 1 and 2 tracks combined into a Pjt 3 Then inside Pjt 3 I did a entire slice and dice rearrangement: parts of 1 and 2 intermixed; a few bars 2 (verse) then back to part 1, etc. == messy. The rearrangement makes it hard (in my mind) to go back to Project 1 or 2 for editing. 

Have you tried such a method? Any way out of this madness?

===
Question #2: Aside from AK's take on PC/Mac, did anyone notice how slick her sfx intro was. Not sure if this is her Avid Edit Bay skills with her audio on top. Do film composers also work large Ad accounts in their workday?


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## GeOM (Nov 16, 2021)

I did try the workflow I mentioned above but I did not try to do a whole slice and rearrangement afterwards. I had to go back to the first one and do it there, then render the track(s) again, and I guess depending on your DAW they will be auto replaced when you open the next project, or you do it easy manually, but you still have to render it in the next and go to the one after, replacing the existing tracks. I did that with separate folders for each stage, with whole full tracks from start to finish so I don't have to move tracks to different bars or guess where it started in case I have to manually replace. You will end up with a disk space sink but it's better than consuming limited RAM or CPU.

I guess sometimes slices and rearrangement can happen afterwards, for sound design or whatever reason. You can do it separately, each on its own project, based on some existing rendered track. But I guess it depends on the DAW, as I don't know many but they can keep the link to the original single file even after you butchered your track to pieces and rearranged. So you keep your structure but you can replace the file that the whole small project was based on, and get the different result. You have to find your own workflow that works and stick to it all the time, otherwise you get lost in where is what.


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## b_elliott (Nov 16, 2021)

GeOM said:


> I did try the workflow I mentioned above but I did not try to do a whole slice and rearrangement afterwards. I had to go back to the first one and do it there, then render the track(s) again, and I guess depending on your DAW they will be auto replaced when you open the next project, or you do it easy manually, but you still have to render it in the next and go to the one after, replacing the existing tracks. I did that with separate folders for each stage, with whole full tracks from start to finish so I don't have to move tracks to different bars or guess where it started in case I have to manually replace. You will end up with a disk space sink but it's better than consuming limited RAM or CPU.
> ....


Makes sense doing the slice 'n dice in the Pjt 1 or 2 instead of how I tried (or nake a numbered version of Pjts 1/2 in case the arrangement is a bust).
Again, appreciate your time and feedback. Thank you.


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## robgb (Nov 16, 2021)

For me it comes down to one thing: the operating system. I have both PC and Mac and it kills me when I have to use the Windows machine. After using Windows for multiple decades, I despise the OS. The way it works, the way it looks, dealing with drivers, drivers, drivers, etc. I haven't yet upgraded to Windows 11, and maybe it would change my mind, but I doubt it. I just prefer MacOS and Core Audio in pretty much every way. So clearly, the choice is a personal one with no right or wrong answer for anyone.


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