# Online Courses for Composing / Orchestration?



## 5Lives (Aug 25, 2013)

Hi everybody,

I'd like to write more orchestral / instrumental music. I grew up playing the piano (and a bunch of other instruments), so I have a sense of theory, but generally when I write, it is just by what I think sounds good - I'm not trained in orchestration. I do a lot of pop songwriting and production as well.

Just wondering if there are some online courses or tools available that would help me learn more about arranging and orchestration (how to take the piano piece I wrote and "correctly" apply percussion, strings, etc.)?

Something like this looks interesting (but quite expensive and across 3 months): http://online.berklee.edu/courses/music ... ilm-and-tv - it is intriguing since it walks you through real examples (which seems like a good way to learn since it is more applied vs. straight theory, which tends to get boring for me).

Or maybe something like http://alexanderpublishing.com/Products/Visual-Orchestration-1--Spectrotone-Course----Basic-Edition__Spec-VizOrch-01-Dwnld.aspx (http://alexanderpublishing.com/Products ... Dwnld.aspx)?

Thank you! I learn a lot on this forum!


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## wst3 (Aug 25, 2013)

there are a lot of really good free resources, and at least one very reasonably priced offering, and that's where I started.

Cinesamples has quite a few videos (I don't know if I'd call them lessons per se, but they are inspirational).

Orange Tree Samples also has some cool videos, but they are a bit more instrument/technique specific, still worth watching.

Mike Verta (our own Mike Verta?) has a slew of very helpful free videos, and he does some on-line seminars for which he does charge. I felt that the one (thus far) that I attended was worth every penny, and I continue to review it when I have time, and I get something out of it each time.

Berklee might be cool, but I am just a little put off by their very aggressive marketing... maybe that's just me?

I've not tried any of Peter Alexander's video classes (yet), but I got a lot from some of his earlier books. I mean a LOT!

Finally, at least from my short list, Google Jack and Scott Smalley (separately, not together<G>) - both have courses which I am very interested in.

And yes, conversations here can be very helpful.


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## 5Lives (Aug 25, 2013)

Thank you so much! The Cinesamples screencasts seem quite interesting along with Mike Verta's stuff and Scott Smalley's course. Jack Smalley's sample PDF seemed a bit too dense for my purposes (I don't do this professionally - mainly interested in learning more while still having fun).

This is a free course on Coursera (unfortunately starts in 6 months): https://www.coursera.org/course/classicalcomp


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## Martin K (Aug 25, 2013)

Hi

I'm currently doing the Cinematic Orchestration course from ThinkSpace and can absolutely recommend it. Here's a link if you wanna check it out. http://www.thinkspaceonline.co.uk/courses/cinematic-orchestration/

Mike Verta's Masterclass videos are also really great.

best,
Martin


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## Darthmorphling (Aug 25, 2013)

I highly recommend Visual orchestration series and Scoring Stages. The Scoring Stages videos are really insightful and I am still learning a lot from them. Bruckner may have composed a long time ago, but the techniques Peter outlines in the first Scoring Stages are very film like.

I will also second Mike Verta's seminars. Lots of information. Presented in a less formal manner, but still terrific.


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## 5Lives (Aug 25, 2013)

Thanks everybody! Has anybody studied with Dave Connor who is on this board?


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## matolen (Aug 27, 2013)

If anyone has taken an Julliard Night Classes, I would be curious to hear your thoughts. Thanks!


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## mark812 (Aug 27, 2013)

Berklee courses are expensive, but top notch. 80% of the Music Composition for Film & TV course is based around John Williams' scores - in-depth analysis.


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## 5Lives (Aug 27, 2013)

Thanks for the Berklee recommendation. Next term starts on September 30th. I may not have time for the homework, so I might start with some of the other options first, but it sure does look appealing.


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## kenm (Aug 28, 2013)

I'm currently taking the Berklee Music Composition for Film and TV class, and have taken the orchestration classes. I highly recommend them. You get out of them what you put into them, which for me is 5-8 hours/week. If you're interested in orchestrating your piano compositions, the orchestration class might be a good place to start. It is a definite time commitment though.


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## bcarwell (Aug 29, 2013)

There are also two freebie courses started by Garritan (I think hosted now by native-instruments)- One follows the Rimsky-Korsakov orchestration text and the other is on Jazz Arranging by Chuck Israels I believe (and has a book/cd available, and utilizes the Garritan Jazz Big Band sound library). They both have forums where questions can be asked and the online lessons include playback of score segments which include a "bouncing ball" that follows the music through the score. Waddya want for free ? Actually they're not bad.


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## jensos (Aug 30, 2013)

Martin K @ Sun Aug 25 said:


> Hi
> 
> I'm currently doing the Cinematic Orchestration course from ThinkSpace and can absolutely recommend it. Here's a link if you wanna check it out. http://www.thinkspaceonline.co.uk/courses/cinematic-orchestration/
> 
> ...



MY GOODNESS Martin, I can't thank you enough for your hint regarding Cinematic Orchestration!! For whatever reason I had never heard of it before. But after downloading their sample material and seeing that (among many other things) they give you a chance to watch Nic Raine work on orchestrations live, I immediately signed up for it today. The main thing for me though is that it seems to be very comprehensive and to offer a good balance between off-line studying and interacting with a coach on assignment projects. What I need is a red line to follow in my studying. The next best thing to a university course, in a way. This is going to be great!! (After all, I've been noodling around on my own with books for long enough.)

Regarding Mike Verta's material, I must say that it is invaluable. I am totally in awe of his skills and the generosity with which he shares his knowledge. The videos are absolutely unique. My favorite one is the "Putting it all together"-marathon in which he guides us through a full analysis of his amazing score "The Race". I must have watched this a dozen times until now and it's not getting old... Combined with the video recording of the scoring session it is the most inspiring thing I have ever seen.
For those interested, search for his free videos on youtube.


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## 5Lives (Aug 30, 2013)

I've started with Visual Orchestration. Will let folks know how I like it. Peter also has a Piano to String / Woodwinds / Orchestra series which looks interesting.

I've only started on one of Mike Verta's videos (Composing), but he's fun to listen to and provides great material.


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## Martin K (Aug 30, 2013)

jensos @ Sat Aug 31 said:


> MY GOODNESS Martin, I can't thank you enough for your hint regarding Cinematic Orchestration!!



You're very welcome. It's a great course to a decent price. I'm sure you're gonna love it. 

I'm totally with you on Mike's stuff. It's amazing value to a ridiculous low price. I hope he plan to do more of it soon 

best,
Martin


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## 5Lives (Sep 5, 2013)

Few initial thoughts:

- Mike Verta's stuff is pretty cool. I took Composing 1 and Orchestration 1. Inexpensive and Mike is the teacher I would love to have for 1-on-1 tutoring. He's very engaging and focuses on the practical applications rather than the academic approach - and that is much preferred for me at least. I will say that it IS very informal and more of a Q&A rather than structured teaching. As such, I don't think I should've started with these, but I still got some use out of them. I'll probably revisit them in the future.

- I've watched three of the videos for Visual Orchestration (out of 7) and so far I haven't really learned anything practically applicable. I think video 4 will start getting more into that (hopefully) but it really seems to be just a walkthrough of the spectratone chart. Bit disappointing so far, but I have faith it will improve.

- I've heard good things about Thinkspace and am looking into that as well as exploring some private tutoring. Some folks like Berklee and others say you don't get enough for your money, so I'm on the fence about it right now.

More to come as I continue my explorations!


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## Peter Alexander (Sep 18, 2013)

@5Lives - Visual Orchestration 1 is a course showing how to get the most out of the Spectrotone Chart and how to use it in the composition/orchestration process. 

If you have any questions, please feel free to write me at [email protected].

I look forward to hearing from you.

Thanks!

Peter Alexander


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## ed buller (Sep 30, 2013)

highly recommend Mike Verta's courses....worth every penny

e


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## PhobiaMusic (Oct 16, 2013)

Hi 5Live,

I have been studying with Dave Connor for only two lessons now and I am very pleased with the progress I have been making. My journey into composition and orchestration wasn't the smoothest. I started out self-tutoring using text books, online tutorials, YouTube videos and tips from you good people at V.I. Control. However, I soon fell into the trap where I was making less music and absorbing more theory -- there was a serious disconnect I began to find difficult to overcome.

Dave's lessons are very accessible and excel in demonstrating the practical application of music theory, for instance, the chord construction technique he teaches has transformed the way I see harmony, voicings, part-writing etc. 

I'd encourage anyone who is contemplating taking lessons with Dave, as he really will teach you to make music rather than just study theory :D .


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## ldiazmusic (Dec 1, 2013)

Glad I found this forum! 

I'm kind of in the same boat! Any other suggestions? I'm considering Thinkspace's Cinematic Orchestration but heard about Dave Connor's one on one Skype lessons and after listening to some of his amazing work I'm interested in knowing if anyone else around here has studied with him and how is it... I love Mike Verta's stuff definitely and also learned that he has some one-on-one stuff available as well...

Thanks!


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## ldiazmusic (Apr 15, 2014)

Friends, those of you still interested in composition/orchestration courses online should definitely check out Dave Connor's one-on-one Skype lessons. I didn't know much about him to be honest. But, I came across his name right here and decided to find out for myself about his offerings. His music is incredible, his teaching is concise and practical indeed. As a Berklee alumnus I still find Dave's approach refreshing and very effective. Plus, it is always a thrill to learn directly from someone who is in the industry and has the experience to back it all up. He is the real deal. I though I'd let you all know. thanks!


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## Leandro Gardini (Apr 15, 2014)

EIS has probably the less appealling site, the worst makerting, the least information on the net and the most forgotten sub-forum, but, if you really want to learn composition it's THE course up to date.
I don't think it covers everything as I used to think when i started it, but after completing most of it, today there's no composition that means a puzzle for me.
You are not going to know everything about music, it's impossible (fortunately  ), but you are going to understand every score in front of you, and the best part: you'l understand in a much easyer way than the tradicional courses out there.


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## The Darris (Apr 15, 2014)

mark812 @ Tue Aug 27 said:


> Berklee courses are expensive, but top notch. 80% of the Music Composition for Film & TV course is based around John Williams' scores - in-depth analysis.



Too bad that 95% of the films being made today don't utilize the John Williams style. As much as I support education and learning, I can't really get behind a program that doesn't help prepare a composer for the current sound of Film and TV. 

It is still a good training program for what they are teaching but to me, learning orchestration is best done by sitting down with blank sheet music, putting on a piece of music that I feel has a very strong orchestration and I transcribe it. Being that the OP has a strong theory background, I am sure they would benefit more from this process. Especially after you transcribe it, you can compare it to the score and see what you got right and wrong, BOOM!! The power of learning.


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## ldiazmusic (Apr 15, 2014)

I'll definitely check out the EIS; sounds intriguing! transcribing is absolutely an invaluable tool for this learning process; I've been there and done that! I'd still recommend for anyone in need of some guidance and encouragement through the learning process to check out Dave Connor at daveconnor.net 
i have a pretty strong education background and still find his teaching style, knowledge and experience to be top notch and inspiring. 
Also, I'd like to say, this site is such an amazing place to learn and I want to say thank you all for your willingness to share your opinions, experiences and recommendations. Keep it up and may God bless everyone...


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## Farkle (Apr 15, 2014)

I am a big proponent of both transcribing, and of EIS. I feel that EIS is the most complete, compositionally freeing and "speed-i-fying" training I have ever received, and I have definitely done the instruction route. (Played in rock and jazz bands, undergrad music degree at Penn, graduate composition degree at Duke, masters' in Film and TV scoring at NYU). All of them great programs, none of them opened my compositional style and speed like EIS.

Having said that, like Leandro said, EIS lets me look at any music, and understand why it works the way it does. Even that crazy-awesome John Powell action cue, I can understand it pretty quickly through EIS. So, I can listen to a cue, transcribe it, and get it's DNA very quickly.

So, I can compose very quickly and effectively with EIS, and if I want to get into a certain detail of composition, I can transcribe the cue quickly, and understand how to replicate it. Does that make sense?

Basically, another thumbs up for EIS. I hope that this helps!

Mike


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## ldiazmusic (Apr 15, 2014)

That all sounds wonderful! Where and how do I get into all this EIS stuff. The only place I see where you can buy the course shows that the page is not available yet. I'd love to start diving into it and see how it all works Any advice? Again, thank you so much :D


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## Farkle (Apr 15, 2014)

Hit up Craig Sharmat, he's my EIS instructor: Here's his website:

http://www.scoredog.tv

He'll help you figure out who's available, and who to study with. There are some notable alums/teachers, including Craig, Jim Venable, Dell Hake. 

Craig's a super guy, he'll respond quickly. Tell him I sent you. 

Mike (Worth)


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## ldiazmusic (Apr 15, 2014)

Ok thank you Mike!! I'll give it a try!


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## Goosewinkle (Apr 18, 2014)

I took the Berklee Online Orchestration I and was supremely disappointed. I feel completely suckered out of $1200 and just thought I'd share, for what it's worth (if only I had seen a post like this before I signed up)

The material is good, but it's the same material you can get out of a $70 textbook. What I really paid for was instructor feedback, but the instructor was completely worthless (it wasn't Ben Newhouse, by the way). You could turn in a complete disaster, and he'd say it was well orchestrated. If he had any specific feedback (and often he didn't), it was almost always about reverb or pan. 

I'm still angry about it, but I'll feel better if I can save someone else $1200 (or $1400--ha, $1200 was discounted!)

I learned more from a couple Mike Verta videos ($60), my Kennan textbook ($70), a handful of scores ($100), Youtube (free), and these forums (free!). $970 in savings!


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## Peter Alexander (Apr 21, 2014)

I would encourage you to consider Visual Orchestration 1 Master Edition which includes the Spectrotone Chart. Put your focus on vertical and linear registration. Then with that information, do score analysis, MIDI mock-up, then write something original with what you've learned. Repeat process.


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## jsaras (Apr 21, 2014)

I echo both Leandro's and Mike's comments regarding the Equal Interval System course. It's not cheap nor is it quick, but for a composer it puts pretty much every known combination of intervals and harmonies into a single nomenclature system. 

At first all the "E1", "E2" business seems strange and irrelevant but eventually you get to the point in the course where you're writing complex 12-note structures and you can just identify it very simply as "3+4" or "5+4", which is infinitely simpler than trying to identify it as bizarre atonal polychord. So it puts everything into a single toolbox. 

The orchestration portion of the course isn't as comprehensive as the Adler book, but reflects Lyle Murphy's personal approach. In other words, you're not going to get the complete history of how every classical composer wrote for strings, etc. You're just getting Lyle's approach. At least at the beginning, it's less overwhelming to to have one way that will get the job done than sifting through 40 different historical options. If Holst, Wagner or John Williams floats your boat, you can unpack those instrumental combinations on your own by looking at those scores.


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## Vin (Apr 23, 2014)

The Darris @ 15/4/2014 said:


> Too bad that 95% of the films being made today don't utilize the John Williams style. As much as I support education and learning, I can't really get behind a program that doesn't help prepare a composer for the current sound of Film and TV.



I beg to differ. As the current sound you mean 1 key loops from Evolve/Aeon/anything from Sample Logic and similar libraries? Many, if not most TV scores nowadays consist of that. I miss _Lost_ and Giacchino's really great music.

Did you watch the new _Cosmos_? Very Williams-esque music. If you're refering to _Orphan Black_/_Almost Human_/any other action show music, I don't think you need a course for that.

Maestro Williams's music might not be the current TV trend, but it's as relevant as ever. IMO, of course. Knowledge that you get just by analyzing his compositions is invaluable. If you can write in that style, you can write in pretty much any other (orchestral) style.


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