# Buy a new Mac, keep my Mac Pro or both??



## mushanga (Oct 7, 2013)

Hi guys,

I would like some advice on what I should do regarding my current set up. I am looking to either replace my Mac Pro with a newer machine with latest gen, faster processors or spec up my current machine and make do with it for the time being. Before you ask, I am not considering PCs and would like to stick to Apple.

This is what I have:

Mac Pro Early 2008 (3,1)
8-Core Intel Xeon 2.8 GHz
24 GB RAM
3 x internal HDs:
320 GB standard 7200 rpm system drive
500 GB standard 7200 rpm backup drive
500 GB standard 7200 rpm drive for sample libraries
Apogee Duet 2 audio interface
ATI Radeon HD 2600 XT 256 MB Graphics Card
Running OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion
I use mainly Logic Pro 9 and X

The obvious solution would be to just replace my mac. However, opening up my Mac Pro this morning for a routine dust down triggered some thoughts. It is such a well built, expandable machine that I could perhaps quite easily just spec it up to future proof me for now. However if this would mean me spending a considerable amount of money, perhaps it would be more worthwhile for me to invest in a new machine?

So having given this some thought I think these are my options:

*1 - Keep my Mac Pro and invest in it*
I could replace the internal hard drives for SSDs but apparently my specific Mac Pro model may not get the most out of SSD speeds due to the fact it does not support SATA 6 Gb/s. However I discovered the Sonnet Tempo SSD Pro PCIe card (http://www.sonnettech.com/product/tempossdpro.html) which can apparently allow SATA 6 Gb/s speeds in my Mac Pro. I could attach 2 x 2.5" SSDs to this card. It seems to cost around £240 here in the UK. Does anyone use this and can recommend it?

In terms of SSDs I would probably be looking at getting 2 x 480 GB Crucial M500s (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Crucial-CT480M500SSD1-2-5-inch-480GB-Internal/dp/B00BQ8RHJ2) - one as my main OS drive and the other for samples. Any of you guys use these? Do you recommend anything else?

I feel I now have sufficient memory (24 GB) so wouldn't need to add to that department.

I think the biggest issue with this option is resigning to the older gen, slower processors in my current machine. As much as my mac uses 8 cores, would I see a noticeable difference with an iMac or Mac Mini's single quad-core i7 processor? Another issue is that I would be spending a considerable amount of money on SSDs on a 5+ year old machine, and SSDs are still pretty expensive these days.

*2 - Keep Mac Pro as a slave and purchase a Mac Mini*
I don't know whether I am just being lazy here, but I would much prefer not to have to stream samples from another machine via ethernet and VE Pro. However I have invested a lot of money in my Mac Pro and keeping it could be a viable option. I could then pick up a Mac Mini (2.6 GHz quad-core i7 with 256 GB built-in SSD) which would be more affordable and can use it as my main system machine. Do you feel it would be worthwhile me keeping my Mac Pro to be used as a slave? Is it too old to be a powerful slave? What does a slave need? Just lots of RAM? Would 7200 rpm drives be fast enough for slave work?

*3 - Replace Mac Pro with a Mac Mini*
There are obvious drawbacks to the Mac Mini, the main being the 16 GB RAM limitation. I think this would be a big issue for me if I were to sell my Mac Pro and rely solely on the Mini, as I use pretty memory-hungry libraries like LASS and Omnisphere.

*4 - Replace Mac Pro with an iMac*
The great thing about the iMac is that it can hold up to 32 GB of RAM and I would be buying a lovely non-glossy screen as well as a computer in one. I would be looking at the 27" 3.5 GHz quad-core i7 model with a built-in SSD. I would then upgrade the RAM from somewhere cheaper like Crucial. Would I see a noticeable difference in performance between my current 8-core Mac Pro and the quad-core i7? I know the processors in my current Mac do not support hyper-threading and the newer gen ones do.

*5 - Replace Mac Pro with new Mac Pro*
I could just wait until the "black bin" comes out. Although having read so many success stories of composers switching to Mac Minis and iMacs for music production, I wonder whether I would really need all the power the new Mac Pro has to offer? Perhaps it's more aimed at the pro video/graphics market? There's also the issues with its design and lack of internal expandability.

I am looking for the most cost-effective solution whilst not compromising on power and speed. I know the new Mac Pros released later this year are likely to be very expensive, but I would be willing to fork out the extra cash should it really be worth my while. Plus second-hand Mac Pros sell very well, so I should still be able to get around £700-1000 for mine considering its in excellent condition and is pretty well spec'd.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

Cheers,

Matt


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## AC986 (Oct 7, 2013)

Same boat actually. Same Mac as you and just bought a new iMac couple days ago. The top spec one, don't ask me the tech data but it's just been updated slightly. It hasn't been delivered yet. I ordered 32 gigs if ram from Crucial to max it out. I still don't know what external drives to use for holding and streaming my sample libraries yet.


Can't make up my mind as to sell the MacPro straightaway or wait. I think I will probably stick it on EBay fairly soon while it's still worth something.


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## germancomponist (Oct 7, 2013)

May I ask you: Why mut it be a Mac?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 7, 2013)

Because people like working on Macs, Gunther.

Matt, what is the object of the exercise, i.e. what do you want your computer to do that it's not doing now?


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## dcoscina (Oct 7, 2013)

I will end up getting a new Mini and use my 8 core Mac Pro as the slave via Ethernet when It comes to it. I work on Windows 7 at my day job and it's nice but I prefer Mac for music.


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## gsilbers (Oct 7, 2013)

that mac pro you have is very good. it should be ok. maybe add a pc slave and use VEp. pc as a slave is not as bad if you use VEP. 

also, i know several los angeles post production facilities that are stockign up on the latest model mac pro before the new trash can mac pros comes out. since the current ones have great HD expansion, 12 cores , pci slots etc


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## germancomponist (Oct 7, 2013)

gsilbers @ Mon Oct 07 said:


> .... also, i know several los angeles post production facilities that are stockign up on the latest model mac pro before the new trash can mac pros comes out. since the current ones have great HD expansion, 12 cores , pci slots etc



Interesting


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## mushanga (Oct 7, 2013)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon 07 Oct said:


> Because people like working on Macs, Gunther.
> 
> Matt, what is the object of the exercise, i.e. what do you want your computer to do that it's not doing now?



Well I'm looking for a number of areas of improvement:

- increased speeds when starting up the computer and loading applications like Logic
- running my sessions at lower buffer settings for less latency
- loading more software instruments in a session without CPU overload errors upon playback

Latest gen i7 processors and SSDs will surely achieve the above..?


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## mushanga (Oct 7, 2013)

gsilbers @ Mon 07 Oct said:


> that mac pro you have is very good. it should be ok. maybe add a pc slave and use VEp. pc as a slave is not as bad if you use VEP.
> 
> also, i know several los angeles post production facilities that are stockign up on the latest model mac pro before the new trash can mac pros comes out. since the current ones have great HD expansion, 12 cores , pci slots etc



Can't say I am keen on using PCs - I just don't like them and am much more in my comfort zone on a Mac.

Regarding slaves, would my Mac Pro make a good one? What does a good slave machine need? Are 24 GB of RAM and 7200 rpm drives sufficient to stream a typical collection of film scoring library samples (like LASS, Symphobia, VSL SE, Omnisphere) via ethernet?


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## mushanga (Oct 7, 2013)

adriancook @ Mon 07 Oct said:


> Same boat actually. Same Mac as you and just bought a new iMac couple days ago. The top spec one, don't ask me the tech data but it's just been updated slightly. It hasn't been delivered yet. I ordered 32 gigs if ram from Crucial to max it out. I still don't know what external drives to use for holding and streaming my sample libraries yet.
> 
> 
> Can't make up my mind as to sell the MacPro straightaway or wait. I think I will probably stick it on EBay fairly soon while it's still worth something.



Nice choice! I would definitely look into streaming your sample libraries from an external SSD via a thunderbolt adapter (like this one - http://www.amazon.com/Seagate-Desktop-Thunderbolt-Adapter-STAE129/dp/B009HQCAPQ/ref=cm_cd_ql_qh_dp_t).

If I get an iMac I am pretty certain I will sell my Mac Pro.


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## Nachivnik (Oct 7, 2013)

It sounds like you are satisfied with the performance of your current Mac Pro in every area except SSDs. If the PCIe card will do the trick, I think that might be your best option. (Not as fun as getting new stuff, but hey).

If you were looking to go mobile or something else, the calculation would be different.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 7, 2013)

> Latest gen i7 processors and SSDs will surely achieve the above..?



I would have thought so!


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## Nachivnik (Oct 7, 2013)

Oops! I didn't see the part about wanting to eliminate CPU overload errors. Maybe a new iMac might be best for that. (Now I'm not much help, am I?)

Regarding lower buffer setting for lower latency, what audio interface are you using?


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## mushanga (Oct 8, 2013)

Nachivnik @ Tue 08 Oct said:


> Oops! I didn't see the part about wanting to eliminate CPU overload errors. Maybe a new iMac might be best for that. (Now I'm not much help, am I?)
> 
> Regarding lower buffer setting for lower latency, what audio interface are you using?



I am using the Apogee Duet 2.

I think I would much prefer the single machine setup so replacing my Mac Pro with an iMac does make a lot of sense. I just don't want to regret not having waited for the new Mac Pro to come out before making my decision!

Do you think that the new MP will be considerably more expensive than a well spec'd up i7 iMac?


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## Stephen Baysted (Oct 8, 2013)

adriancook @ Mon Oct 07 said:


> Same boat actually. Same Mac as you and just bought a new iMac couple days ago. The top spec one, don't ask me the tech data but it's just been updated slightly. It hasn't been delivered yet. I ordered 32 gigs if ram from Crucial to max it out. I still don't know what external drives to use for holding and streaming my sample libraries yet.
> 
> 
> Can't make up my mind as to sell the MacPro straightaway or wait. I think I will probably stick it on EBay fairly soon while it's still worth something.



Adrian, SSD over Thunderbolt is the way to go here IMO.


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## AC986 (Oct 8, 2013)

orchestranova @ Mon Oct 07 said:


> adriancook @ Mon 07 Oct said:
> 
> 
> > Same boat actually. Same Mac as you and just bought a new iMac couple days ago. The top spec one, don't ask me the tech data but it's just been updated slightly. It hasn't been delivered yet. I ordered 32 gigs if ram from Crucial to max it out. I still don't know what external drives to use for holding and streaming my sample libraries yet.
> ...



Yeah cheers Matt.

I looked up some details on my order for you (still not arrived just yet). 

I upgraded to a 1TB Fusion Drive as I (maybe mistakenly) understand this helps with faster loading.
I also upgraded the video card to a NVIDIA GeForce GTX 780M 4GB GDDR5.

Definitely going check our your advice on the SSD.

I am wondering if I will be able to utilise my Apogee Ensemble because there is no Firewire. May be able to get a Firewire to Thunderbolt Adaptor.


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## Nachivnik (Oct 8, 2013)

orchestranova @ Tue Oct 08 said:


> I am using the Apogee Duet 2.
> 
> I think I would much prefer the single machine setup so replacing my Mac Pro with an iMac does make a lot of sense. I just don't want to regret not having waited for the new Mac Pro to come out before making my decision!
> 
> Do you think that the new MP will be considerably more expensive than a well spec'd up i7 iMac?



I think we'll know pretty soon. There's going to be an iPad-centric event on October 22. Maybe then?

The Duet 2 is good for low-latency performance isn't it? I may be wrong, but the interface used has more to do with such performance than the computer, i.e. I don't know if a new computer will see any better performance in this area.


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## kitekrazy (Oct 10, 2013)

I'm not a Mac user and don't care to ever be one but my choice would be your first option. That's a good system and for what Macs cost, I would milk the life out of it.


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## mushanga (Oct 13, 2013)

Nachivnik @ Tue 08 Oct said:


> I think we'll know pretty soon. There's going to be an iPad-centric event on October 22. Maybe then?
> 
> The Duet 2 is good for low-latency performance isn't it? I may be wrong, but the interface used has more to do with such performance than the computer, i.e. I don't know if a new computer will see any better performance in this area.



Looks like there will be a keynote on the 22nd. Really not looking forward to seeing the new Mac Pro prices that's for sure!

I think the Duet 2's latency performance is limited by the USB 2 connection. I am in fact considering selling mine for an RME HDSPe AIO PCIe card to put into my Mac Pro should I decide to keep it. Does anyone use this sound card and can recommend it? Jay Asher - don't you have one in a Sonnet chassis connected to your Mac Mini via thunderbolt?



kitekrazy @ Fri 11 Oct said:


> I'm not a Mac user and don't care to ever be one but my choice would be your first option. That's a good system and for what Macs cost, I would milk the life out of it.



Thanks for your advice. I am very tempted to just stick with my Mac Pro for the time being. Putting in 2 SSDs using the Sonnet Tempo SSD Pro card seems like a viable solution. Though it would be great to hear some first-hand experiences before I make my decision.


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 13, 2013)

orchestranova @ Sun Oct 13 said:


> I think the Duet 2's latency performance is limited by the USB 2 connection. I am in fact considering selling mine for an RME HDSPe AIO PCIe card to put into my Mac Pro should I decide to keep it. Does anyone use this sound card and can recommend it? Jay Asher - don't you have one in a Sonnet chassis connected to your Mac Mini via thunderbolt?



I do indeed, along with a UAD-2 card and it works very well. A little bit noisy, but not bad.


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## resonate (Oct 20, 2013)

as a comparison to Sonnet, be sure to check Firmtek offerings : http://www.firmtek.com/seritek/seritek-q6g/


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## AC986 (Oct 20, 2013)

..wrong thread. oops.


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## mushanga (Oct 30, 2013)

Thanks everyone for your help! 

I am still undecided on whether to invest in the Tempo SSD Pro and the RME HDSPe AIO for my 2008 Mac Pro - will PCIe cards soon become a thing of the past? Better to buy something like an iMac i7 quad-core rather than spec up my (almost) 6-year-old machine? Better latency results and CPU performance for music production with a 3.5 GHz quad-core i7 over my current 2.8 GHz 8-core "Harpertown" Mac Pro? To anyone with my generation Mac Pro and the RME AIO - I'd love to hear some feedback on performance.


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## Gerd Kaeding (Oct 31, 2013)

orchestranova @ Sun Oct 13 said:


> Thanks for your advice. I am very tempted to just stick with my Mac Pro for the time being. Putting in 2 SSDs using the Sonnet Tempo SSD Pro card seems like a viable solution. Though it would be great to hear some first-hand experiences before I make my decision.



Hi ochestranova ,


I have the "Sonnet Tempo SSD Pro" with SAMSUNG 840PRO (512 GB) Modells installed (_ for hosting EW's Hollywood Series_ ) , in the exact same MacPro from 2008 you have.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Samsung-Series-512GB-Solid-State/dp/B009LI7CYE/ref=sr_1_1?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1383221828&sr=1-1&keywords=samsung+840Pro+512 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Samsung-Series- ... 840Pro+512)
( Specs: MacPro (3.1) 8-Core 2.8 GHz / OSX 10.6.8 / GraphicCard ATI Radeon HD 2600 / 24GB RAM / Logic 9.1.8 / VEPRO5 (build 5.1.12808) / PLAY 4.0.23 )


The loading times with this PCIe solution are ultra fast compared to those from HDD's in the Mac's normal HD bays. Note: I don't use the SSD's as RAID .
Maybe with setting up the SSD's as a RAID the performance under OS X is slightly faster , but I doubt it.
I don't see a throughput of 500MB/sec or something like that , because when working with samples its more about small files and random reads which then leads to something between 160 - 300 MB/s on the MacPro with OS X. On a Windows PC the performance is usually better . 

I have the same setup on another MacPro .
( Specs: MacPro (5.1) 6-Core 3.33 GHz / OSX 10.8.5 / GraphicCard ATI Radeon HD 5770 / 48GB RAM / Logic 10.0.4 / VEPRO5 (build 5.1.12808) / PLAY 4.0.23 ) . 
But because of the Card's Size you can only put the "Sonnet Tempo SSD" Card into this Mac Modell, not the "Sonnet Tempo SSD Pro"-Card !!! Again I'm using here SAMSUNG 840PRO (512 GB) Modells .

Please keep in mind , using a SSD in a MacPro with OS X does not reduce the sample footprint that gets loaded into active and/or inactive RAM when you load a patch . It simply loads fast , and streaming is improved during playback. But under OS Mountain Lion you actually have a reduced Sample Footprint in Active / InActive RAM compared to loading the same setup under OS X 10.6.8 . ( _Under OS Mavericks we might see an even more reduced footprint. Don't know yet ... ._ )


Using the Sonnet PCI Cards in your MacPro is very easy. You simply attach the SSD's into the SONNET PCI Card , then install the PCI Cards into the PCI Slots .
If you run OS X 10.7.5 or higher you don't even have to install a driver. However , you have to install a Firmware Update for the SONNET PCI Card to get the full bandwith !!!
( http://www.sonnettech.com/support/kb/kb ... =b733#b733 ) 

Even if you decide to buy a new iMac :
if you pimp up your 2008 MacPro - _which is compatible with OS Mavericks_ - with such a PCI Card you can use it for the next years as a very powerful Slave computer with VEPRO5 .

Hope this helps ,
best
Gerd


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## mushanga (Oct 31, 2013)

Gerd Kaeding @ Thu 31 Oct said:


> The loading times with this PCIe solution are ultra fast compared to those from HDD's in the Mac's normal HD bays...
> 
> ...I don't see a throughput of 500MB/sec or something like that , because when working with samples its more about small files and random reads which then leads to something between 160 - 300 MB/s on the MacPro with OS X. On a Windows PC the performance is usually better ...
> 
> ...



Thanks for your very helpful insight, Gerd. I would not be looking to run the Mac Pro as a slave even if I did purchase the iMac (I'd sell the MP) - I want an all-in-one machine.

Do you think SSD technology in the latest iMac i7 would run quicker than with the Tempo SSD Pro in my 2008 Mac Pro? I just really don't want to spend a lot of money and then regret having investing in "dead wood". Remember this MP 3,1 uses old Xeon processors without hyper threading..


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## Gerd Kaeding (Oct 31, 2013)

orchestranova @ Thu Oct 31 said:


> Do you think SSD technology in the latest iMac i7 would run quicker than with the Tempo SSD Pro in my 2008 Mac Pro? I just really don't want to spend a lot of money and then regret having investing in "dead wood". Remember this MP 3,1 uses old Xeon processors without hyper threading..



I never used an iMac so I cannot really comment on this.

But if you plan to use a "Sonnet Tempo SSD Pro Card" inside a Sonnet Ecgo Express Chassis" ( http://www.sonnettech.com/product/echoexpresschassis.html (http://www.sonnettech.com/product/echoe ... assis.html) ) connected via Thunderbolt to your iMac , I think you won't get an equal performance with those SSD's in such a setup compared to using the "Sonnet Tempo SSD Pro Card" inside your MacPro 3.1 .




orchestranova @ Thu Oct 31 said:


> Remember this MP 3,1 uses old Xeon processors without hyper threading..



Hyperthreading on the other hand is only as good as the software that is using this feature. From my experience/subjective view it is VEPRO5 that is doing very well here. Not so sure about my beloved Logic .



No matter which road you'll choose I'm sure you can't be wrong :
If you end up with pimping your MacPro with those Sonnet Cards it's great because you saved lots of money, but nevertheless you'll get a significant boost in performance .
And if you pick up a current iMac i7 you'll get a powerful & extremely silent desktop computer .

Anyway , I wish you good luck with your decision . 



Best

Gerd


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## Lawson. (Oct 31, 2013)

I would personally get the Mac Mini, and use your Mac Pro as a slave. I say this because I have the top of the line 2012 iMac, and on big orchestral templates I have about 1 GB (out of my 32) of RAM left. 24 GBs + 16 GBs of RAM is nice.

Also, using this test shows your current Mac Pro would rate about 55, while the 3.4 GHz i7 (not on the list, but I tested it) gets 100. So yeah, the new i7s are a lot better.


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## mushanga (Nov 4, 2013)

Lawson. @ Fri 01 Nov said:


> I would personally get the Mac Mini, and use your Mac Pro as a slave. I say this because I have the top of the line 2012 iMac, and on big orchestral templates I have about 1 GB (out of my 32) of RAM left. 24 GBs + 16 GBs of RAM is nice.
> 
> Also, using this test shows your current Mac Pro would rate about 55, while the 3.4 GHz i7 (not on the list, but I tested it) gets 100. So yeah, the new i7s are a lot better.



If I was running libraries off of a slave machine via ethernet and VE Pro, what would be utilised from the slave machine? Just its RAM? Or does processing power / hard drive speed come into play? Would it be fine to leave my Mac Pro as it is (with regular 7200 rpm internal HDs and 24 GB of memory)?


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## Maestro77 (Nov 4, 2013)

I'm also curious about this. I don't have a slave in my current setup but I've got an older Mac Pro sitting here, unused, with 18 GB RAM and an old 7200 RPM drive. Trying to decide what to do with it. If I hooked this up as a slave what would I need to upgrade, if anything?


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## mushanga (Nov 4, 2013)

With PCs it seems you can get much more for your money. I badly want an RME AIO PCIe card without the need for an external Sonnet chassis at an extra cost. The new Mac Pro seems to be much more suited towards the video market than audio...not to mention it will cost a bomb!

I wonder how much I'd dislike Windows over Mac OS X. Can't be that difficult to adjust to...and once you're in a DAW it looks the same whether you are on Mac or PC (with the exception of Logic of course). I'm thinking of switching from Logic to Cubase so more food for thought...

Like the look of these guys for PC music workstations:

http://www.solidhawk.co.uk/index.php/solidhawk-audio-systems.html

Has anyone used them?


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## mushanga (Nov 4, 2013)

Maestro77 @ Mon 04 Nov said:


> I'm also curious about this. I don't have a slave in my current setup but I've got an older Mac Pro sitting here, unused, with 18 GB RAM and an old 7200 RPM drive. Trying to decide what to do with it. If I hooked this up as a slave what would I need to upgrade, if anything?



To be honest I really want an all-in-one powerful setup without the need for a slave. I will probably sell my Mac Pro.


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## mushanga (Nov 6, 2013)

How does this PC spec look:

http://www.solidhawk.co.uk/index.php/so ... b-ssd.html

I was also considering adding a 1TB SSD to hold my samples.

Adam (from Solidhawk) is quoting me £2367....is this a good deal?


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## mushanga (Nov 8, 2013)

Okay so it seems like I am talking to myself on here lol.

I am still undecided at the moment. I think overall that sticking with Mac is the most sensible option for me. So I think I will end up going for a well spec'ed 27" iMac i7.

Can anyone comment on the latency performance between the RME HDSPe AIO and the Babyface? PCIe vs. USB 2? RME's drivers are apparently so solid that I am not sure how much better the AIO would perform. If I go for the iMac I would rather opt for the Babyface than be forced to spend extra money on a chassis for the PCIe card.


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## FriFlo (Nov 9, 2013)

As you should not be talking to yourself, I will give you my advice, as I switched to PC recently:
You will have some moments of discouragement, but all over I did not regret my decision a single day. Cubase is more advanced than logic without a doubt and I have not much trust in the further development of logic. Cubase will run better on your PC than on Mac. An iMac is the last thing I would do personally, as those Laptop components will not last nearly as long as a tower system from my experience (my 2008 Mac book pro is mostly gone today, while the G5 Mac Pro from 2006 is still working perfectly with only one graphic card being replaced in 8 years).
IMO go windows and forget about apple. And I used to be a happy apple customer! I just got cured from that disease ...


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## FriFlo (Nov 9, 2013)

Few mor things: before I completely switched to Windows, I had a slave PC running along with exactly the same Mac Pro, that you have. If you really want to stick to Mac OS and/or Logic, why not buy a Slave PC with 64 gigs oaf ram and some SSDs for about 2500€? This way you don't loose any of your old investments and gain way more power. I wouldn't bet on getting that kind of money for your 2008 Mac Pro on eBay, by the way ...


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## mushanga (Nov 9, 2013)

FriFlo @ Sat 09 Nov said:


> As you should not be talking to yourself, I will give you my advice, as I switched to PC recently:
> You will have some moments of discouragement, but all over I did not regret my decision a single day. Cubase is more advanced than logic without a doubt and I have not much trust in the further development of logic. Cubase will run better on your PC than on Mac. An iMac is the last thing I would do personally, as those Laptop components will not last nearly as long as a tower system from my experience (my 2008 Mac book pro is mostly gone today, while the G5 Mac Pro from 2006 is still working perfectly with only one graphic card being replaced in 8 years).
> IMO go windows and forget about apple. And I used to be a happy apple customer! I just got cured from that disease ...



Ahhh man! You're not making this any easier for me :shock: 

So the iMac is not made of good quality components? PCs aren't exactly either though right? In terms of the chassis they're usually just plastic shells...whereas Macs are all pretty much made from an aluminium build. I mean, a motherboard is a motherboard. If they're encased in something solid and well constructed that's surely a plus for things like heat distribution, right?

What do you make of the link I posted earlier of the Solidhawk PC workstation? And its price?

Thanks for your help.

P.S. and did you mean to say 2008 *Mac Pro* as opposed to 2008 *Macbook Pro*?


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## FriFlo (Nov 10, 2013)

With the iMacs you always get Laptop components squeezed into a very small space. Of course they are doing a marvelous job at this these days, but there is still a greater chance of parts to overheat and break earlier, therefore. This is just my experience, could be, that advances in technology will make last today's MacBooks and iMacs longer than the previous models, but I honestly doubt it ...
If you buy a new and powerful computer for audio today, it will probably be still a valid machine in 4 years, so IMO it is important to consider, how long lt will last.
My 2008 Mac Pro is still intact, so is my 2005 Mac G5 (as an office computer obviously). The Mac book pro I bought in between is still functioning, but very slow compared to when it was new, even, when I upgraded it with an SSD.
The solid hawk system looks ok, but all those special audio configs are a little overpriced. You can build the same machine for a little less money yourself. up to you, if you think you are up to the task. I don't like, that those companies tell you all the specs, like motherboard, power unit, etc. E.g. I want to know how many internal 6Gb/s Sata connectors the main board has. It cannot be stressed enough that for our kind of work SSDs and Ram are way more important than horsepower! With Kontakt 5 you may globally set the pre load buffer lower or higher, but not per instance of Kontakt! just globally (with VSL you may even set it per library). Lower pre-load buffer means more instruments loaded with the same amount of ram. So it is important to calculate your Libraries' size and buy SSD space accordingly. Only that way you will get the full power of SSDs. You may however leave K4 installed and leave those samples on conventional HDs.
With an iMac or Mac mini you may only use an thunderbolt expansion chassis for SSDs, which is more expensive and not the same speed, therefore these machines are ineffective for us! It only makes sense to use a Mac as main DAW and buy slave PC(s) for the samples. And that only makes sense, if you see some genuine advantage of Logic or Mac OS, which I cannot see these days any more. Well, with leaving Logic I kind of dumped 10 years of learning experience with that program. That was kind of the hardest part of it!


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## mushanga (Nov 11, 2013)

FriFlo @ Sun 10 Nov said:


> With the iMacs you always get Laptop components squeezed into a very small space. Of course they are doing a marvelous job at this these days, but there is still a greater chance of parts to overheat and break earlier, therefore. This is just my experience, could be, that advances in technology will make last today's MacBooks and iMacs longer than the previous models, but I honestly doubt it ...
> If you buy a new and powerful computer for audio today, it will probably be still a valid machine in 4 years, so IMO it is important to consider, how long lt will last.
> My 2008 Mac Pro is still intact, so is my 2005 Mac G5 (as an office computer obviously). The Mac book pro I bought in between is still functioning, but very slow compared to when it was new, even, when I upgraded it with an SSD.
> The solid hawk system looks ok, but all those special audio configs are a little overpriced. You can build the same machine for a little less money yourself. up to you, if you think you are up to the task. I don't like, that those companies tell you all the specs, like motherboard, power unit, etc. E.g. I want to know how many internal 6Gb/s Sata connectors the main board has. It cannot be stressed enough that for our kind of work SSDs and Ram are way more important than horsepower! With Kontakt 5 you may globally set the pre load buffer lower or higher, but not per instance of Kontakt! just globally (with VSL you may even set it per library). Lower pre-load buffer means more instruments loaded with the same amount of ram. So it is important to calculate your Libraries' size and buy SSD space accordingly. Only that way you will get the full power of SSDs. You may however leave K4 installed and leave those samples on conventional HDs.
> With an iMac or Mac mini you may only use an thunderbolt expansion chassis for SSDs, which is more expensive and not the same speed, therefore these machines are ineffective for us! It only makes sense to use a Mac as main DAW and buy slave PC(s) for the samples. And that only makes sense, if you see some genuine advantage of Logic or Mac OS, which I cannot see these days any more. Well, with leaving Logic I kind of dumped 10 years of learning experience with that program. That was kind of the hardest part of it!



Whilst I can see your point regarding the laptop components in Apple computers such as the iMac, it's still not enough to persuade me to switch to PC. I just love Mac OS X. It would take me a while to become comfortable in Windows (if ever), not to mention that 99% of my projects were done in Logic. Even if I did switch to Cubase I would want a platform that I can always run Logic on to access those projects.

I think I am going to hold out for now and see how the new Mac Pro fairs. Manufacturers like Sonnet, RME and Apogee will think about how best their products can cater to Apple users as they update their machines to new ones. I think thunderbolt will play a big part in this although I've read that PCIe is faster and has lower latency.

Investing in my current Mac Pro by putting in some SSDs is still an option, but I think if anything I would rather upgrade my sound card to the RME HDSPe AIO and then see how best I can use this on a future Mac when new expansion and connectivity options become available in the coming months.

It could well be worth holding out for Apogee to release a Duet Thunderbolt or something along those lines.


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## mushanga (Apr 27, 2014)

So folks, looks like I will be sticking with Option 1.

Is anyone using the Samsung EVO, Crucial M500 or M550 in a Mac Pro Early 2008 (3,1)? Not sure which one to go for. Preferably want 1TB so it's really between the EVO or the M550. 

I am planning on hooking one of these babies up to an Apricorn Velocity Solo x2 PCIe card to get SATA III 6Gb/s speeds.


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## proxima (Apr 27, 2014)

FriFlo @ Sun Nov 10 said:


> With an iMac or Mac mini you may only use an thunderbolt expansion chassis for SSDs, which is more expensive and not the same speed, therefore these machines are ineffective for us!


The speed loss with an external interface like thunderbolt or USB3 is minimal. My USB3-connected SSD pulls down 400-425 MB/s sustained and has fantastic seek performance, of course. My internal Macbook SSD gets about 425-440 MB/s, so the overhead from a good external interface is minimal, probably on the order of 10-20%. Thunderbolt can probably eliminate most of that difference as well.

A higher end new iMac runs circles around a brand new low-end Mac Pro (and is somewhat cheaper and comes with a 27" screen), and certainly would outperform most older Mac Pros. 

The idea that iMacs are ineffective for VI music work is just not correct, sorry.


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## proxima (Apr 27, 2014)

FriFlo @ Sat Nov 09 said:


> An iMac is the last thing I would do personally, as those Laptop components will not last nearly as long as a tower system from my experience


iMacs use desktop processors, not laptop ones (the iMac is _not_ a Mac Mini with a screen). Check out the teardown (http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iMac+Intel+27-Inch+EMC+2639+Teardown/17828). It also uses a 3.5" hard drive in the 27" model. Of course, the 27" model also has easily accessible RAM slots to upgrade to 32 GB (those are laptop-sized RAM chips).

By far the biggest downside with the new iMac design is that they are much harder to take apart than the old Mac Pros or even the old iMacs. One solution is to pony up for Applecare to ensure 3 years of working order, but even ifixit gives it a 5/10, which isn't terrible. Of course, with such a common model, it's pretty straightforward to find teardown instructions, videos, and tools. It's also generally pretty easy for most people to find an authorized repair center to pay someone else after the warranty expired. But this, not the component quality[/i], is the downside of the iMac.


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## charlieclouser (Apr 27, 2014)

I know this is an old thread, but I saw a mention of the Sonnet Tempo SSD Pro PCI card - and I've got one in my 2010 12-core Mac Pro.

I put 2x Samsung 1tb 840 Pro SSD drives on the Sonnet and it is a champ. I can finally scroll through Kontakt patches like they were presets on a synth. Fantastic.

BUT. I am in Snow Leopard. When I made a Mavericks boot disc to try out Logic X and restarted under Mavericks the drives on the Sonnet card did not appear on the desktop and Drive Utility can't find them. I had a good chat with Sonnet tech support who were very helpful and knowledgable but we never got it working. They were puzzled since it should just come right up on the desktop - but it doesn't, and I haven't been able to resolve the issue. Doesn't matter, I'm staying on Snow Leopard forever.

I also put 4x OWC 960gb SSDs in the drive bays, but the slick little brackets don't work in my old 2008 8-core, so there's that. 

But with 6th of all SSD storage this machine is stupid fast. The disc activity meter in Logic only lights the bottom-most indicator, and only under heavy load. Most of the time the indicator is dark. I'll never go back to spinning discs!


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## gsilbers (Apr 27, 2014)

charlieclouser @ Sun Apr 27 said:


> I
> 
> 
> I also put 4x OWC 960gb SSDs in the drive bays, but the slick little brackets don't work in my old 2008 8-core, so there's that.
> ...



what adapter did you end up getting to mount the ssd drives into the mac pro drives slots?


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## samphony (Apr 27, 2014)

Finishing up a short right now. A couple of days ago I've received my new Mac Pro. 
My old 2009 MP is still running flawless I have setup my drives similar to Charlie.
Although I don't have the sonnet I have two of these http://www.apricorn.com/vel-solox2.html 
For the 4 drive bays I've bought 2 
http://www.amazon.com/Icy-Dock-EZConvert-2-5-Inch-Converter/dp/B002Z2QDNE/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1398653508&sr=1-1&keywords=icydock+2.5+to+3.5 (http://www.amazon.com/Icy-Dock-EZConver ... 2.5+to+3.5)

And 2 OWC Mount Pro https://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/MMP35T25/

Just yesterday I couldn't withstand it and had to test my new Mac Pro. I just connected my 2009 tower via thunderbolt to FireWire and put it into target disk mode. Then I booted up the nMP.
(Of course I've installed everything from scratch no migration assistant for me this time)

I started Logic Pro X with one project I was running on the tower before. The session was not only loading much quicker I was also concerned that the CPU meter wasn't doing anything at all. This new machine is such a pleasure to work with. And all my drives are just connected via FireWire atm. I can't wait until I pickup my Black a Magic Multidock on Wednesday.

For me in comparison after a couple of hours I feel like flying. In general I find since I've bought my first Mac Pro in 2009 it was the best purchase I've ever done. The same is true for the new one.


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## Mr. Anxiety (Apr 28, 2014)

It's an interesting topic, for sure. Especially if you have Pro Tools hardware in the mix.

I own a 1,1 with upgraded processors and it keeps up with my needs currently. I'm thinking of getting a 5,1 or 6,1 Mac Pro just to have as backup. 

I'm on Snow Leopard as well; it's so solid!

Mr A


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## charlieclouser (Apr 28, 2014)

gsilbers @ Sun Apr 27 said:


> charlieclouser @ Sun Apr 27 said:
> 
> 
> > I
> ...



Well, I used the OWC Mount Pro - but that was for my 12-core 2010 machine. The 2008 machine has slightly different drive trays and the OWC won't fit. So I just put the 2008 machine on the shelf - it still has mechanical drives and I'm not using it except as a backup rig just in case. I power it up every couple of days and sync the SSDs in my 12-core to the drives in the 2008 machine so if the SSDs take a crap then I can just swap machines and get back to work - but slower.


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## rpaillot (Apr 28, 2014)

proxima @ Sun Apr 27 said:


> FriFlo @ Sun Nov 10 said:
> 
> 
> > With an iMac or Mac mini you may only use an thunderbolt expansion chassis for SSDs, which is more expensive and not the same speed, therefore these machines are ineffective for us!
> ...



Yeah but some composers like having all the hard disks safely connected inside a computer case instead of having 5 hard disks connected with wires , outside , lying on the desk. So if you add an external audio interface, then an external thunderbolt chassis ( to use PCI-E extension card), etc... a real mess 
I mean, why did apple choose to go that way? A computer case with everything inside is just .. simpler


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## marclawsonmusic (Apr 28, 2014)

rpaillot @ Mon Apr 28 said:


> Yeah but some composers like having all the hard disks safely connected inside a computer case instead of having 5 hard disks connected with wires , outside , lying on the desk. So if you add an external audio interface, then an external thunderbolt chassis ( to use PCI-E extension card), etc... a real mess
> I mean, why did apple choose to go that way? A computer case with everything inside is just .. simpler



Very true. Technology has indeed changed when the external bus now rivals the throughput of the internal bus. 

It used to be that you were only able to get passable I/O with hardware connected directly to the mobo / disk controller. With USB 3.0 and TB, it seems this is no longer a requirement.

Maybe moving the drives outside the case allows for easier cooling? I know that physical drives generate some heat due to the machinery and spinning platters, but not sure about SSDs. I imagine they get hot too, but maybe not as hot?

Less heat in the case would conceivably allow Apple to put in a faster (hotter) processor, which means the MacPros _could _perform better than their chassis counterparts over the long term. Just a theory...


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## dinerdog (Apr 28, 2014)

I "was" using a OWC Mercury Electra 3G SSD in my Mac Pro (Early 2008), but ironically it just died (froze was their term) after only about 4 months. I've actually never had a drive die that fast. It was the 480GB. Luckily I was slowly getting ready to migrate to it (my Mac Pro has the original drive in it) adding software and doing updates etc., so I didn't really lose anything but time and some installs. They sent me a new one, but as they stated: you better be backed up, cause there no sound or warning with SSDs, they usually just stop when they're done. 

They did say it was rare, but still a little strange. Oh, and they have a Newertech "Adaptadrive" that it fits into and just slides right in like a regular drive.


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## mushanga (Feb 13, 2016)

Update: I ended up selling my Mac Pro and purchasing a 27" Retina 5K iMac i7 with 512GB flash storage. Couldn't be happier so far.
The only negative has been the lack of retina display support and scalable versions of Kontakt, Omnisphere and so on. Nice to see VSL making progress on this with their new Vienna Suite Pro and Vienna Instruments player updates which they have confirmed they are working on. I wonder why most developers are taking so long to support retina displays and higher screen resolutions.


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## esencia (Mar 22, 2016)

I was extending my Mac mini quad i7 16gb ram life.. but definitely , I need much more power.. So I'm planning to buy a Mac Pro 6 cores (the cylinder), and I hope to have enough improvement for logic and kontakt libraries (under VEP much better).
But I don´t know if I should sell my Mac mini o keep it with me using VEP on it..


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## NYC Composer (Mar 23, 2016)

Consider the used 12 core Macs at OWC (Mac Sales) for around $2500 plus extra RRAM, SSDs. I'm told that machine is wicked fast.


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## URL (Mar 28, 2016)

Mac sales is nice but its the wrong side on earth...for buying.


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## synthpunk (Mar 28, 2016)

There are some negatives as well. They are a loud machine so you will in most cases need a long cable run to a machine room or iso cabinet IMO, No Thunderbolt options (although usb3 in most cases can be fine), and they use about 2/3's more power than the current MP if you care about your power bill.



URL said:


> Mac sales is nice but its the wrong side on earth...for buying.


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## passsacaglia (Mar 28, 2016)

What do you say guys, a mac pro with 6 cores or more or an iMac i7, quad core with 32-64GB of RAM? 
I mean...excluding SSD's and stuff, cores vs RAM?


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## samphony (Mar 29, 2016)

Out of the two choices you suggested I would take a 6 core nMP with 32 or 64gb ram. If you can afford take the 8 or 12 core. 
Always take the 4core model and do a CTO to 6/8/12 core it's less expensive. And don't buy ram at Apple!


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