# Feature Film/Back-End Deal/What to ask for?



## PoppaJimmy (May 5, 2011)

Hey Guys,

So from reading these forums, I know you've all heard this before and some have strong feelings about it. Briefly:

I'm a composer/arranger/orchestrator for live stage shows. I do this for a living.

*I have never written for film/TV, etc. and never seriously pursued it.*

An acquaintance (from stage shows) is doing a lead role in a film being written and produced by another, well known, stage performer here (in Vegas). Neither she, nor any of the other performers are getting paid and the film has not been sold. I assume the crew is getting paid. The performers shoot about once a week (as most of them are in shows). I don't know what their various deals are.

My acquaintance mentioned me to the writer/producer. He knows of me and told her to be sure I understood that there was no up front money but if I am interested, he would love to meet to discuss my composing for the film.

The film is a romantic comedy, with emphasis on the comedy. AFAIK, it is a feature film being made in the hope that it will be sold somehow. I believe it is about half-way through the shooting process.

Important points for me:

Vegas is a town where most people in shows are aware of each other. This guy is a *great* connection to have for stage shows and I haven't worked with him before.

My financial situation is not at all dependent on whether I do this film.

Word in town is that he is a really good guy who treats people well and remembers favors. I had heard this long before this situation came up.

So, my question is, if I am offered the gig to compose the score, what should I ask for on the back end? What kind of deal would I want and how should I look to structure that.

I won't do it without some kind of arrangement in writing, of course, but I really don't have any parameters in my head. My acquaintance told me it would be best if I went to the meeting with some idea of what I would want. She says he (the writer) is a very open guy, willing to listen and to deal.

I'm sure there will be many other questions you all will want answered. At the moment, I've posted all I know. If you have good questions I should be asking, I appreciate that as well.

I know many of you have strong feelings about these kinds of situations and I'm sure they will be mentioned here. However, I'm really not trying to start that kind of debate. I am not a film composer and that is not my long-term goal. However, I certainly am open to all possibilities and this would be a way to gain invaluable experience as well as making an excellent business connection.

So, I hope, along with the many opinions people may express, some of you will also help answer my specific question. I have no idea what to ask for in this situation. Your thoughts are greatly appreciated. Thank You.

Be Well,

Jimmy

I know you will all want more info but, at the moment


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## midphase (May 5, 2011)

I wouldn't look at this any differently as to what you do for a living. Figure out a rough idea of how many hours you'll have to put into the film to create the score, tally up the total based on what you normally get paid hourly, tag an extra 30-50% on top of that and ask for that amount deferred if the film makes money. My guess is that you'll never see anything from it...but at least on paper you'll be getting paid something that is a fair reflection of your hourly commitment to the project.


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## José Herring (May 5, 2011)

Sounds like a good way to make a decent connection. I'd look at it like that.

Personally I wouldn't worry to much about the deal at the moment. Just an agreement that you keep all the music and that if the film is sold you'll allow them to use the music in their film, compensation to be negotiated "in good faith" upon the sale of the film.

You don't know what kind of deal he's going to get. So don't lock yourself into anything. It may be that he gets the kind of deal that he only makes money if the film makes money. In that case you want a percentage. But, on a romantic comedy, unless it has some big names attached, it's not going to do much business. On a fluke some low budget horror films or some thriller films have made it big, but those are kind of flukes.

If you think that getting in good with this guy is going to help your live gig stuff or future film work with him, then go into it with that mentality. To be honest I wouldn't even go in with any kind of contract whatsoever for this. The music by law is yours until you get paid and a deal is signed, but yet you have no idea what kind of deal to make. So why make one now. Make it if the film sells and they're in a spot where they have to use your music. Then you ask honestly what kind of money they're getting. If by some fluke they're getting $200,000. Then ask for a chunk of it for use of your music.

Just my 2cents


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## PoppaJimmy (May 5, 2011)

Thanks for those answers guys. I really don't have stars in my eyes about this film or about it making money. In truth, I know absolutely nothing about it other than that the people are all pros in the live show world and the connections are good. 

As most of you know, the majority of all the work you get in show biz comes through connections, networking, etc. At least that's how it's always been for me.

Regarding your suggestions, I'm really flexible about it all so, if we get a few other suggestions, I will take them all in, then speak with the writer and go from there. Thanks again.

Be Well,

Jimmy


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## RiffWraith (May 5, 2011)

Two things:

1) Even if you dont see any money, the way you make it sound is that you may wind up with good connections, and possibly more work later on. If that's the case, it maybe worth it to do this film.

2) What you can do is this: ask for x-dollars as a deffered payment. You retain all copyright and grant an exclusive license to the film for x-time period, after which the license becomes non-exclusive if you aren't paid the deferred fee in full. This will enable you to use the music after that time period is up for other purposes, such as licensing the score in whole or in part to a music library. This way, you have the potential to make money off of the music you have written down the road.

Best of luck!


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## JimmyPoppa (May 10, 2011)

Sorry I've been away for a couple of days.

RiffWraith,

Your suggestions make sense. As far as the connection is concerned, you're right on the mark and that is the main reason I'm looking at this. Of course, the experience and a feature film composing credit won't hurt me either.

Any thoughts on reasonable numbers for "x-dollars" and "x-time period" in this situation? Maybe something like what Midphase suggested? I really have no clue.

Thanks again.

Be Well,

Jimmy


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## wst3 (May 10, 2011)

JimmyPoppa @ Tue May 10 said:


> Any thoughts on reasonable numbers for "x-dollars" and "x-time period" in this situation? Maybe something like what Midphase suggested? I really have no clue.



The first one is easy... what's your time worth? What do you charge for your current activities, whatever they are? Keep in mind that if you, like many others, do different things for different rates you need to take that into consideration. You already know, or should know, what your time is worth!

a couple examples:
as a guitar teacher I can charge about $40/hour, seems to be the going rate unless you walk on water and don't get your feet wet! If I could be billable for a full 2088 hours per year (the infamous standard work-year) that's $83,520 - not too shabby.

as a studio tech I used to be able to get $90/hour without a fight, these days it is more like $65/hour, again that's just the going rate, and frankly, at least here, there is so little work I don't pursue it. Again if I were billable all year that's a very nice $135,720.

as a composer/arranger, well, there's the rub - most of the work is either $/finished minute or by project, so it's difficult to relate it to a $/hour thing, but I think if you do it enough you start to get a pretty good idea of how many hours it takes to do certain things.

Point being, you already probably know that:
1) it'll take you about one hour per finished minute to write, arrange, and record the soundtrack.
2) you'd like to be in the $100K/year range, and you figure you can be billable at least 1000 hours per year.

so if we used those two numbers you'd need to bill at about $48/hour, and (due to my ridiculously simple example) that would work out to $48/finished minute, or for a 2 hour film about $6000.

The time period thing is much more difficult. How long will it take them to get the film to market? If you figure a year then I'd give them 18 months. I don't know, but in general it always takes longer than you think, and you want to be fair to them, otherwise you would not be taking the gig in the first place!

But you need to be fair to yourself, so do not leave it open ended!!! Pick a schedule, discuss it with them, and hopefully you'll reach an agreement.

This stuff is not easy, and it takes a certain willingness to gamble. But from the cheap seats anyway it seems like it is pretty much a required step (leap?) of faith.

FWIW, I've done a handful of speculative jobs. In some cases the person I was working with treated me fairly. In other cases they did not. As each case came and went I learned new things I needed to watch for.

It's all a learning process!!!!

Good luck.


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## PoppaJimmy (May 13, 2011)

wst3,

All very helpful. Thank you very much.

Be well,

Jimmy


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