# Opinions on this PC build



## Counterpointer (Sep 19, 2018)

Hello!

What do you think about this PC build for a music production workhorse. I chose 32GB of RAM but in 2x16 form so I have the option of going 64GB in the future if I feel the need for it. 

My biggest insecurities concern cooling and the mother board.

https://www.inet.se/produkt/b1026963/datorbygge


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## Andrew Aversa (Sep 19, 2018)

Hi there! I suppose the prices in your country are probably worse than the US, as some of these parts are overpriced compared to what you can get on Amazon, Newegg, etc... :(

I do have two suggestions:

1. 7700k is only quad core, and it is on an older platform. 9900k is coming next month and is faster with 2x the cores. At the very least, I recommend going to 8700k so you get 6 cores / 12 threads. 

2. Try to get a 300-series motherboard such as H350 or 370, which will support 9900k if you choose to upgrade later


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## Sami (Sep 19, 2018)

Building a computer in late September is never a great idea. I'd wait for the abovementioned announcements. It's prime hardware season soon!


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## Counterpointer (Sep 19, 2018)

zircon_st said:


> Hi there! I suppose the prices in your country are probably worse than the US, as some of these parts are overpriced compared to what you can get on Amazon, Newegg, etc... :(
> 
> I do have two suggestions:
> 
> ...



Ah, thank you! Won't the new releases be much more expensive though? Price is actually a big matter to me.


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## Bernard Duc (Sep 19, 2018)

Counterpointer said:


> Ah, thank you! Won't the new releases be much more expensive though? Price is actually a big matter to me.


The price of the current most recent gear will certainly drop. It’s worth the short wait.


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## Counterpointer (Sep 19, 2018)

Bernard Duc said:


> The price of the current most recent gear will certainly drop. It’s worth the short wait.



That's true. Then I could get the 8700k for a little less, I guess. When are the releases due?


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## Bernard Duc (Sep 19, 2018)

Counterpointer said:


> That's true. Then I could get the 8700k for a little less, I guess. When are the releases due?


October is usually a good time to buy intel CPU. Ram and SSD fluctuate based in market. By the way for music there is no real use in having the the fastest SSD. The 860 evo should be more than enough.


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## puremusic (Sep 19, 2018)

The next generation might even be released on the 1st, hard to say though nothing official yet.


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## Counterpointer (Sep 19, 2018)

Bernard Duc said:


> October is usually a good time to buy intel CPU. Ram and SSD fluctuate based in market. By the way for music there is no real use in having the the fastest SSD. The 860 evo should be more than enough.



How is faster not necessarily better when working on heavy VST projects? Won't the load time be reduced with faster discs?


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## puremusic (Sep 19, 2018)

Looking at your build you made the right decision on the type of cooler in that it has screws instead of push pins. Plastic push pins are a pain. Installing the CPU cooler is the part of building a PC I like least.


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## Damarus (Sep 19, 2018)

Counterpointer said:


> How is faster not necessarily better when working on heavy VST projects? Won't the load time be reduced with faster discs?



Yes. But I think the difference he was referencing is the price/performance. 860 Evo vs 970 PRO may not give you a huge performance jump for the price. When choosing an SSD these days, storage is the priority, then max speed. Unless you're not concerned about cost, then you can have both


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## Counterpointer (Sep 19, 2018)

Damarus said:


> Yes. But I think the difference he was referencing is the price/performance. 860 Evo vs 970 PRO may not give you a huge performance jump for the price. When choosing an SSD these days, storage is the priority, then max speed. Unless you're not concerned about cost, then you can have both



Ah, I see. Well, then I have to rethink the storage needs =)


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## Pictus (Sep 23, 2018)

The life expectancy for the Samsung PRO is at least 2 times of the EVO in the same series line like PRO 970 to EVO 970, but the *EVOs are good enough* see https://3dnews.ru/938764/page-3.html





The PRO is a better choice if plan to deal with BIG files like when editing video because there will be no cache(SLC NAND) starvation.
From https://www.extremetech.com/computing/268254-samsung-launches-new-970-evo-and-970-pro-ssds "(...)the 970 Pro doesn’t use an SLC NAND cache the way the 970 EVO does means that it retains its maximum write performance over a much longer time frame.(...)"

I prefer AMD GPU, can be a RX 550/560, see https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7060297
But for DAW stuff you can be just fine with the integrated GPU.

The cooler seems OK https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/arctic-freezer-33-esports-edition-cpu-cooler,5422-2.html but I prefer something like Thermalright Macho Rev.B

IF plan to buy a 6 core CPU need a compatible motherboard, ASUS PRIME B250-PLUS is not...
In the USA the ASRock Z370 PRO4 is $15 more than the ASUS PRIME B250-PLUS, but it is a way better motherboard with Thunderbolt header, Intel NIC, stronger VRM and compatible with 6/8 cores CPU, but for 8 cores I would choose the Z370/Z390 Taichi.
*$250 for the 6 cores i5-9600k is sweeeeeeet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*
Sadly only the i9-9900K or i7-9700K have a soldered heat spreader.
From https://goo.gl/XTNnDD


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## Counterpointer (Sep 23, 2018)

Pictus said:


> The life expectancy for the Samsung PRO is at least 2 times of the EVO in the same series line like PRO 970 to EVO 970, but the *EVOs are good enough* see https://3dnews.ru/938764/page-3.html
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for your insight! Interesting to see the comparison between i5 and i7. Now that big of a difference, appearantly. 

What difference does a soldered heat spreader make?


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## Pictus (Sep 23, 2018)

Glad to help, the soldered heat spreader better dissipate the CPU heat so it can clock higher or be more silent.
With non soldered heat spreader overclockers delid the CPU, see videos I posted in
https://vi-control.net/community/th...9-7940x-and-128-gb-of-ram.75200/#post-4283577


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## Counterpointer (Sep 23, 2018)

Pictus said:


> Glad to help, the soldered heat spreader better dissipate the CPU heat so it can clock higher or be more silent.
> With non soldered heat spreader overclockers delid the CPU, see videos I posted in
> https://vi-control.net/community/th...9-7940x-and-128-gb-of-ram.75200/#post-4283577



Ops, that's really something to consider.


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## Counterpointer (Nov 28, 2018)

How about this one? Not cheaper to buy a computer now compared to late september, but I really need a new computer soon. I should have pulled the trigger on black friday, but I was all into hardware and plugins then. 

Anyway, any opinions and advice are most welcome!


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## Pictus (Nov 28, 2018)

Counterpointer said:


> How about this one? Not cheaper to buy a computer now compared to late september, but I really need a new computer soon. I should have pulled the trigger on black friday, but I was all into hardware and plugins then.
> 
> Anyway, any opinions and advice are most welcome!



I created a better build https://www.inet.se/produkt/b1045064/datorbygge
This build got a way better motherboard, GPU, cooling and PSU.
The AMD gpus are better for sound, see why
https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7060297


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## Counterpointer (Nov 28, 2018)

Pictus said:


> I created a better build https://www.inet.se/produkt/b1045064/datorbygge
> This build got a way better motherboard, GPU, cooling and PSU.
> The AMD gpus are better for sound, see why
> https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7060297



Thanks!! I see you changed the cooler. Those stuff are the hardest part I think.


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## Robert Kooijman (Nov 29, 2018)

Counterpointer, do you really need a graphic card in your DAW?

The integrated graphics of the 9700k work fine if you're not into (heavy) gaming.
Even using multiple screens isn't a problem, and you have less heat & noise issues.

The Samsung 970 EVO 1TB is IMO an excellent choice. But why a separate 250G one? When starting from scratch, I personally would try to keep an M.2 slot free for another 1 or 2TB NVM SSD in the future when prices come down...


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## Counterpointer (Nov 29, 2018)

Robert Kooijman said:


> Counterpointer, do you really need a graphic card in your DAW?
> 
> The integrated graphics of the 9700k work fine if you're not into (heavy) gaming.
> Even using multiple screens isn't a problem, and you have less heat & noise issues.
> ...



Thanks for your input! Well, as for the gaming part, I do wan't to be able to do some gaming if I find the time in between sessions. I have a dream to compose for games, and so I find it very relevant to at least try to keep up with the trends by playing some games myself. It's also a lot of fun!

And for the discs, my idea was to put the OS and projects on a smaller disc (250GB or 500GB) and all libraries on a separate, larger disc. I was under the illusion that one saves a bit CPU by installing (at least in Kontakt) the applications on the C-drive and the samples on a separate drive. Am I wrong?


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## Robert Kooijman (Nov 29, 2018)

Having a separate C / boot / system drive is in my humble experience not really needed anymore. Certainly not from a performance point of view when you are using a fast, reliable NVM SSD.

Windows has it's own directory, and you can still do a windows repair without messing up your sample / VST data should that be necessary. You can of course also create a separate partition for Windows, but that will likely cause more troubles further down the road as Windows has a tendency to grow...


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## Counterpointer (Nov 29, 2018)

Robert Kooijman said:


> Having a separate C / boot / system drive is in my humble experience not really needed anymore. Certainly not from a performance point of view when you are using a fast, reliable NVM SSD.
> 
> Windows has it's own directory, and you can still do a windows repair without messing up your sample / VST data should that be necessary. You can of course also create a separate partition for Windows, but that will likely cause more troubles further down the road as Windows has a tendency to grow...



Okey, thanks! So it would be better to start off with one, large drive and expand along the way, when I'm starting to fill up my C drive?


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## Robert Kooijman (Dec 1, 2018)

Counterpointer said:


> Okey, thanks! So it would be better to start off with one, large drive and expand along the way, when I'm starting to fill up my C drive?



IMO yes. More economical. I did the same, and have all sample libs under a dedicated directory on the root of the c drive. It's good practice to keep library paths as short as possible (under 240 bytes after extracting library data) and perhaps to exclude this dir from scanning in your anti virus / malware program.


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## Counterpointer (Dec 2, 2018)

Robert Kooijman said:


> IMO yes. More economical. I did the same, and have all sample libs under a dedicated directory on the root of the c drive. It's good practice to keep library paths as short as possible (under 240 bytes after extracting library data) and perhaps to exclude this dir from scanning in your anti virus / malware program.



Ah, interesting! Do you keep both 32bit and 64bit plugins in the same dirdctory or separate folders?


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## Robert Kooijman (Dec 2, 2018)

Well, I love keeping things simple. Made a c:\\sample libraries and a c:\\VST folder for keeping plugin installers.

I really try to avoid any 32bit plugins on our new DAW, and avoid having any lib or plugin data under c:\\users\...

The only issue is that some sample library and plugin installers (NI...) attempt to put stuff at various places where I don't want to have it. And worse, some badly written installers screw up things by not remembering (i.e. correctly updating the Windows registry) when manually pointing the installer to the desired path. So sometimes I need to manually edit the registry for the worst offenders. This should not be needed, but I believe it's worth it in the end as I know then exactly where things are.

I decided on our new DAW to avoid the mess that we had before by just letting installers do whatever they want.
Our previous DAW had 10 hard disks, and I used Snapraid to keep everything under one directory. This works, but like any raid or storage pool solution also has its drawbacks.

This time I purposely avoid any RAID whatsoever, as IMO the disadvantages do not outweigh the gains.
So, after the first NVM SSD gets full, another one will be added under D:\\sample libraries.

One could argue to have a fast and expensive NVM SSD only for the OS and plugins, while keeping sample libraries on cheaper and slower SATA SSD's. But after experiencing the blazing speed and system responsiveness with our 2TB Samsung 970 Evo SSD, I just don't want anything else 

Most likely prices come down next year of NVM SSD's, it doesn't really make sense using SATA anymore for new builds IMO.


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## Counterpointer (Dec 2, 2018)

Robert Kooijman said:


> Well, I love keeping things simple. Made a c:\\sample libraries and a c:\\VST folder for keeping plugin installers.
> 
> I really try to avoid any 32bit plugins on our new DAW, and avoid having any lib or plugin data under c:\\users\...
> 
> ...



Thanks! Great info here. My current computer is a total mess when it comes to directories (I have a lot of NI stuff). I'm very attracted to the idea of one single path for all libraries and one for applications, all on one large disc. This gives me confidence to go in that direction.


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## Counterpointer (Dec 28, 2018)

Robert Kooijman said:


> Well, I love keeping things simple. Made a c:\\sample libraries and a c:\\VST folder for keeping plugin installers.
> 
> I really try to avoid any 32bit plugins on our new DAW, and avoid having any lib or plugin data under c:\\users\...
> 
> ...



Now I'm about to pull the triigger on this maschine.One question though: My project files, should I keep them on the C drive as well or get a separate mechanical for that?


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## Counterpointer (Dec 29, 2018)

Pictus said:


> I created a better build https://www.inet.se/produkt/b1045064/datorbygge
> This build got a way better motherboard, GPU, cooling and PSU.
> The AMD gpus are better for sound, see why
> https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7060297



Hello! 

after asking around about storage I think I need several ssd's to minimize bottlenecks. The motherboard you chose only has 2 m.2 ports. What do you think about this build? It's a bit more expensive but since it's holiday discounts it's not that bad. 

https://www.inet.se/produkt/b1051836/datorbygge


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## Pictus (Dec 29, 2018)

I do not like MSI motherboards...
The for audio workloads bottleneck is *not* the SSD, but the CPU.
As Robert Kooijman mentioned, you can go super perfect with just one big NVMe SSD and install everything there.
Here because the way stuff is done(backup/management) I prefer one separated SSD for the OS.
A new build for you with better CPU, case(got USB 3 type c) and cooler.
If you really want a motherboard for 3 NVMe SSDs, then go for Gigabyte Z390 AORUS ULTRA.

https://www.inet.se/produkt/b1051895/datorbygge


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## Counterpointer (Dec 29, 2018)

Oke


Pictus said:


> I do not like MSI motherboards...
> The for audio workloads bottleneck is *not* the SSD, but the CPU.
> As Robert Kooijman mentioned, you can go super perfect with just one big NVMe SSD and install everything there.
> Here because the way stuff is done(backup/management) I prefer one separated SSD for the OS.
> ...



Oket, thanks! 

And an i9! I didn't realize there was such a discount on those now. I'll probably add a small SSD for OS and keep all samples on the larger SSD. And projects on the HDD.


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## Synetos (Dec 29, 2018)

I recently rebuilt my main DAW rig and use a Cool Master HAF (High Air Flow) XB EVO case and a Noctura NH-D15 dual fan cooler. It is running very quiet overclocked by 36%. CPU temp hovers around 77 degrees F. 

I run my OS on its own SSD, samples on separate SSD, and Projects on additional SSDs. 

I am not a fan of WaterCoolers for CPU. I think they are louder than a good fan setup, and do not perform as good. Some may argue that, but I prefer a fan setup. One benefit to water-cooler is for mobile transport of DAW for field recording. 

With the HAF rig, my CPU fan is upright and not hanging off the MB. I could easily add some stabilizers bands if I was going to let someone other than me transport it or had to ship it for some reason.


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## Pictus (Dec 29, 2018)

Synetos, he is buying the PC mounted, because of the heaviness of the heatsink over the motherboard they not build with Noctua NH-D15, so have to be water cooler....
The Corsair H150i Pro is +- the same as Noctua NH-D15 in noise/performance.
https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8540/corsair-h150i-pro-rgb-cpu-cooler-review/index7.html


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## Synetos (Dec 29, 2018)

Pictus said:


> Synetos, he is buying the PC mounted, because of the heaviness of the heatsink over the motherboard they not build with Noctua NH-D15, so have to be water cooler....
> The Corsair H150i Pro is +- the same as Noctua NH-D15 in noise/performance.
> https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8540/corsair-h150i-pro-rgb-cpu-cooler-review/index7.html



Oh, I see. I didn’t catch that. My bad.

Perhaps my bias against water Cooler is that I never had a case that seemed to fit them well. Running four fans push-pull maybe was the issue on one machine, and in fairness, it was on a 3930k, which ran hotter. 

I do like the tidiness of the water cooler in the case. Less in the way for some of my ram chips that have large cooling fins.

Anyway, always exciting building a new rig. Hope it inspires the OP to create beautiful music to share with the world.


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## JohnG (Dec 29, 2018)

Robert Kooijman said:


> Counterpointer, do you really need a graphic card in your DAW?
> 
> The integrated graphics of the 9700k work fine if you're not into (heavy) gaming.
> Even using multiple screens isn't a problem, and you have less heat & noise issues.



I agree. Integrated graphics have given me far fewer problems than separate cards. Definitely avoid Nvidia; I know they've improved their drivers but on one of my PC slave computers they are still not great for latency.



Pictus said:


> The life expectancy for the Samsung PRO is at least 2 times of the EVO in the same series line like PRO 970 to EVO 970, but the *EVOs are good enough* see https://3dnews.ru/938764/page-3.html



I agree -- you don't need the fastest SSDs. Even the slowest SSDs I own from years ago are still so fast that they are good enough to stream samples. Some argue that the longer warranty indicates higher quality and reliability, which may be true, but I have not experienced a single SSD failure yet and was an early adopter, so some of mine are quite old now.

Just to confess, though, I am something of a hypocrite arguing for "good enough" SSDs, since I bought an Intel Optane for strings. Like many, I am very demanding with that section.



Counterpointer said:


> I have a dream to compose for games, and so I find it very relevant to at least try to keep up with the trends by playing some games myself. It's also a lot of fun!



Definitely if you want to work in games it's a good idea to play games, especially if you enjoy them.

I also agree with the advice, just for updates and housekeeping, to maintain a separate C: drive. Not sure it's strictly necessary, but for simplicity it might be easier. I also use a separate project drive on my main computer; despite the fact that I don't think you really need that anymore, I find it easier to conceive of my backup strategy that way. The project drive gets backed up at least once a day to another location.

Good luck and best wishes.

Kind regards,

John


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## Counterpointer (Dec 29, 2018)

Synetos said:


> Oh, I see. I didn’t catch that. My bad.
> 
> Perhaps my bias against water Cooler is that I never had a case that seemed to fit them well. Running four fans push-pull maybe was the issue on one machine, and in fairness, it was on a 3930k, which ran hotter.
> 
> ...


Thanks!


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## Counterpointer (Dec 29, 2018)

JohnG said:


> I agree. Integrated graphics have given me far fewer problems than separate cards. Definitely avoid Nvidia; I know they've improved their drivers but on one of my PC slave computers they are still not great for latency.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you!


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## Robert Kooijman (Dec 29, 2018)

Counterpointer said:


> Now I'm about to pull the triigger on this maschine.One question though: My project files, should I keep them on the C drive as well or get a separate mechanical for that?



As soon as you add a mechanical HD to your DAW, performance and responsiveness suffers. Especially if your HD spins up / down all the time which is the default behavior for most disks and standard Windows power saving settings.

One or more SSD's, non- raided, each with their own single volume and drive letter, with as few partitions as possible would be preferred IMO.

Using mini-partition manager one can get rid of all hidden, bloated, unnecessary partitions that only take up space. Deactivate system restore, delete any restore points, turn off hibernation, set virtual memory to zero, and create an 8GB rescue USB stick in Windows. You'll have a clean and recoverable system.

Regarding integrated graphics: our new DAW uses an Asrock extreme4 motherboard that we have hooked up to 3 displays using only integrated graphics (HDMI, DP and VGA port) all at the same time. This works really well, but then the DAW is of course hardly used for gaming...


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## Counterpointer (Dec 29, 2018)

JohnG said:


> I agree. Integrated graphics have given me far fewer problems than separate cards. Definitely avoid Nvidia; I know they've improved their drivers but on one of my PC slave computers they are still not great for latency.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I went over the build again and decided to go with your advice. I removed the graphics card to save some money. I prioritized storage instead and chose a 1Tb evo 970 for samples, a 250gb evo 970 for OS, a 1tb 870 evo for projects and a 2TB HDD for backup. 

Me and my wife bought ourselves a PS4 for christmas so I reckon I can do all of my gaming there.


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## wst3 (Dec 30, 2018)

I go back and forth on the video card vs on-board GPU, so pay no attention to my opinion on that.

For storage, it is probably not necessary to separate out the operating system and applications, but there are an awful lot of practical reasons to do so, I think you are wise to use a separate drive for OS & Apps. I might make it a tad larger if budget allows, but I have yet to use 256GB on my OS drive.

I separate my storage based on housekeeping, with a special focus on restoration:

OS & Apps - I keep all the installers, so in the absolute worst case I can rebuild. I also do image snapshots when I I make changes, although I am not as disciplined as I should be about that. Partly because there are benefits to a scorched earth installation from time to time. Wish it were not so!

Data - this is stuff I can't easily reproduce, project files, writing and spreadsheets, photos, etc. This stuff gets backed up six ways from Sunday. But performance is not an issue. While a really large project might take a while to load, it isn't the project file (as a rule) but rather all the libraries that it uses. I still use spinning platters for my "D" drive, although that will change to SSD in the very near future. It just isn't a priority, and backups of this drive are!

Sample Libraries and other content - stuff I could reinstall, but would prefer not to based purely on volume. As it turns out, this stuff is also demanding on throughput - well, Kontakt libraries certainly can be, and that is by far the majority of storage.
As for the path issue - too many installers behave badly, and there are no good reasons for it, but there it is.

So I let every installer just do it's thing, and I use symbolic links to keep things where I can find them. It is a little bit of work to set up, but once you get used to managing the links it really does get easier. You don't even need to do the registry edits - I still do, but I could get away with not.

For the rest - you have reached a point of diminishing returns, I think. Although I am guilty of doing the same!

Best wishes, and please let us know how it turns out.


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## Counterpointer (Dec 31, 2018)

Pictus said:


> I do not like MSI motherboards...
> The for audio workloads bottleneck is *not* the SSD, but the CPU.
> As Robert Kooijman mentioned, you can go super perfect with just one big NVMe SSD and install everything there.
> Here because the way stuff is done(backup/management) I prefer one separated SSD for the OS.
> ...



I went for your build, but with the Auros Ultra and two additional SSD's. I had to take another case but I chose a similar. Thank you for your help!


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Dec 31, 2018)

JohnG said:


> I agree. Integrated graphics have given me far fewer problems than separate cards. Definitely avoid Nvidia; I know they've improved their drivers but on one of my PC slave computers they are still not great for latency.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I also use a separate Projects Drive. As I too like to silo everything in my mind, like rooms for each purpose when using my machines


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