# Just saw Avatar..Horner does it again



## theheresy (Dec 18, 2009)

Jeez. This guy is amazing. If you literally threw out all of avatar's "original music" and put random bits and pieces of Beautiful Mind, Troy, and Titanic soundtrack in there you wouldn't even notice the difference. How does this guy get away with this stuff? Incredible...


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## john rodriguez (Dec 18, 2009)

Don't forget Glory, I coulda swore I even heard some of that thrown in there. I haven't seen the movie but the OST sounds like it's from a video game that I wouldn't want to play.


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## lux (Dec 18, 2009)

i felt the need for another Horner thead.


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## José Herring (Dec 18, 2009)

Jeez you guys are missing the point! That he has so much great work to draw on is amazing! I wish I had that body of work. I'd be steeling from myself for the next 20 years.

Jose


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## theheresy (Dec 18, 2009)

josejherring @ Fri Dec 18 said:


> Jeez you guys are missing the point! That he has so much great work to draw on is amazing! I wish I had that body of work. I'd be steeling from myself for the next 20 years.
> 
> Jose



Well how about that even tons of that 'great work' that he has to draw on isn't from him in itself cus he stole some of it from others as well. How about the note for note theft he did from the stargate theme in Troy and now uses that material all over again. Seriously though, amazing movie, it ushers in a new era and is a milestone in film history. The main theme is amazing too by Horner but even the main theme is honestly VERY similar to the main theme of the titanic and has almost the same chords just slightly altered. Kinda funny.


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## theheresy (Dec 18, 2009)

I should mention I honestly would be fine with his self-theft if he at least was open about it and admitted it and explained WHY he does it musically. It's fine for someone to say "Hey guess what, I like those chord progressions I use and everyone else seems to also because they love my sound tracks so BUZZ off and go screw yourself." That would be fine cus at least he's admitting it but I've never once heard him admit a single ounce of it and he seems to go quiet on the subject deliberately. I would love for someone to show me an interview of his where he even so much as ADDRESSES his self-plagiarism let alone admits to it. 
Seriously..a while back before I knew much about Horner I seriously thought it was gross exaggeration on everyone's part when they said he copied that much..I mean it MUST of been but time and time again I hear the same themes over and over now with my own ears. I just watched Avatar and lo and behold I hear glimpses of Beautiful Mind, note for note direct rip offs from themes from Troy, the main theme copied from Titanic even turns it into a Celine Dion esque ballad with Leona Lewis singing at the end in the same manner with an almost identical theme. And the sad part is that I'm not even THAT familiar with Horner's work (only his more recent scores) and I heard tons of self-references in there, so I can't imagine how much more there is from his earlier work in Aliens, Star Trek and others that I'm not even familiar with. 

And for the guy that said he has such a wealth of 'great material' to steal from himself, yea that's right because all his best themes he stole from HIMSELF and not from others right? How about his most famous theme of all that he won an oscar for? 

Try this on for size 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AN04imFDK8

now skip to 3:06 here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B49N46I39Y


...OOPS! How come Hans Zimmer got sued for stealing Holst in Gladiator but Horner didn't get a huge law suit from this? 

again...OOPS!


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## Justus (Dec 18, 2009)

Not just Gladiator, POTC as well:
http://www.box.net/shared/mlxike9rq3

It's a very nice melody though...


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## madbulk (Dec 18, 2009)

Hmmm... I suppose it's touchy. I actually didn't remember the Braveheart theme, and as soon as it began, because of the context (the thread) I knew the second link was going to be that melody from The Planets. But even though I immediately knew where you were going, I don't see that as theft.
Maybe that's the essence of theft and I'm completely wrong. 
I can't call my donut shop McDonuts, even if my last name is McDonuts, because the confusion is instant and undeniable.
But to me this isn't even close to being a stolen theme because the material from the Holst thing isn't substantial enough to be protected. He may even have stolen it in his heart when he wrote it. And still, I say he can't be touched for it.


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## SvK (Dec 18, 2009)

Stealing from yourself is called style.

SvK


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## SvK (Dec 18, 2009)

...but the main piano riff from gregson-williams "SpyGame" is in Avatar...


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## SvK (Dec 18, 2009)

i miss elliot goldenthal!


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## SvK (Dec 18, 2009)

eliot may not have had the most memorable themes but he is always very tasteful and great at atmosphere.

SvK


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## choc0thrax (Dec 18, 2009)

Well Elliot did do a mediocre score for Public Enemies not long ago...so at least there's that.


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## billval3 (Dec 18, 2009)

What I don't get is why James Cameron would want that. After spending all that time and effort on something that he seems to be really proud of, why slap repeat music (including closing credits) on it?


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## theheresy (Dec 18, 2009)

billval3 @ Fri Dec 18 said:


> What I don't get is why James Cameron would want that. After spending all that time and effort on something that he seems to be really proud of, why slap repeat music (including closing credits) on it?



Exactly since Cameron probably owns the rights to the Titanic music anyway why not just re-use the Titanic soundtrack as temp music and save himself the few million $$ he paid Horner to do another Titanic/Troy rehash on Avatar.


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## theheresy (Dec 18, 2009)

SvK @ Fri Dec 18 said:


> Stealing from yourself is called style.
> 
> SvK



This is wrong, what Hans Zimmer does can be called "style" his soundtracks often sound very similar just because he has a similar SOUND, orchestration, method of composing etc, but at least it's new themes, melodies etc,....what Horner does is take his own ACTUAL MELODIES and reuses them note for note. That's not "style" that's plagiarism.


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## sevaels (Dec 18, 2009)

So it really hasn't dawned on any of you that Cameron and the studio may have asked for something just like what has been a hit in the past? Oh no no I'm sure with what might be 500,000,000 invested they wanted him to go wild....

:roll:

BTW I noticed the Spy Game theme as well SvK - Still think thats one of HGW's best scores. 

Oh and I miss Elliot too. FF: Spirits Within OST is AMAZING!


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## dcoscina (Dec 18, 2009)

theheresy @ Fri Dec 18 said:


> SvK @ Fri Dec 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Stealing from yourself is called style.
> ...



I'll take Horner's plagiarism and his ability to write for orchestra well over Hans Zimmer's "originality" any day of the week.

"Good composers borrow, great composers steal"- Igor Stravinsky


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## Dr.Quest (Dec 18, 2009)

josejherring @ Fri Dec 18 said:


> theheresy @ Fri Dec 18 said:
> 
> 
> > josejherring @ Fri Dec 18 said:
> ...



Bravo, Jose. It's nice someone know how it works. I like the score just fine.
J


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## José Herring (Dec 18, 2009)

Is it just me or are there snowflakes falling on the screen?


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## choc0thrax (Dec 18, 2009)

theheresy @ Fri Dec 18 said:


> This is wrong, what Hans Zimmer does can be called "style" his soundtracks often sound very similar just because he has a similar SOUND, orchestration, method of composing etc, but at least it's new themes, melodies etc,....



Uhhh errrrrr ummm....





dcoscina @ Fri Dec 18 said:


> I'll take Horner's plagiarism and his ability to write for orchestra well over Hans Zimmer's "originality" any day of the week.



+1 Never thought I'd agree with you on anything(actually felt part of my soul die but whatever).

Sometimes I can get over the similarness of Horner's stuff if it's really good. His score for The Missing is one of my favourite scores of the last decade even though it can sound like Braveheart etc. at times. Strangely I never hear anyone talk about that score.


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## lux (Dec 19, 2009)

choc0thrax @ Fri Dec 18 said:


> theheresy @ Fri Dec 18 said:
> 
> 
> > This is wrong, what Hans Zimmer does can be called "style" his soundtracks often sound very similar just because he has a similar SOUND, orchestration, method of composing etc, but at least it's new themes, melodies etc,....
> ...



i agree this with this newborn vicontrol couple.


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## nikolas (Dec 19, 2009)

At least the film was good! (Was missing Leo on the top of the trees or something! )


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## billval3 (Dec 19, 2009)

josejherring @ Fri Dec 18 said:


> I just think it's a little stupid for any of us to be second guessing somebody like James Horner when none of us has even come close to what he's doing.
> 
> José



I don't think anyone should be "untouchable" as far as us judging their artistic merit. Just because none of us has had the same success doesn't mean we are unable to evaluate what he is doing with his abilities.


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## dcoscina (Dec 19, 2009)

but this is the argument when myself or someone else critical of Zimmer or MV makes light of it on this forum. Nice double standard!


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## bryla (Dec 19, 2009)

theheresy @ Sat Dec 19 said:


> Exactly since Cameron probably owns the rights to the Titanic music anyway why not just re-use the Titanic soundtrack as temp music and save himself the few million $$ he paid Horner to do another Titanic/Troy rehash on Avatar.


Why do you think he owns them? Don't you think Horner is smarter than that. Even if he did: He's not paying the royalties. The production company is. So whether it was Cameron or Horner that owns the rights, the production company still would have a heck of a sync fee.


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## mf (Dec 19, 2009)

billval3 @ Sat Dec 19 said:


> josejherring @ Fri Dec 18 said:
> 
> 
> > I just think it's a little stupid for any of us to be second guessing somebody like James Horner when none of us has even come close to what he's doing.
> ...


With his abilities, Horner is scoring films, making his clients happy, getting famous, and rich. Apparently he is doing quite well in these four departments. Now, how would you evaluate his abilities, considering his achievements?
The 'artistic merit' of a score is measured by how well it serves the film. And this is decided by filmmakers and filmgoers. Apparently, Horner is doing well in this department too.


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## Christian Marcussen (Dec 19, 2009)

Choc0 - I agree.. The Missing is a great store, in spite of it's occational lifts from Braveheart. 

As for Avatar: I think the score underacheives a bit. It sounds like another composer lifting from Horner. The themes he ripps were much better and more natural than the "change a note here, and one there" frankenstein score for Avatar. 

As for Horner:I like him, and to be honest I tend to like his melodies better than the original he copies from. Take the Braveheart theme - far better than Holsts :D . Same goes for his Willow theme, Glory and others. Heretical I know...


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## choc0thrax (Dec 19, 2009)

dcoscina @ Sat Dec 19 said:


> p.s. Merry Christmas choco. Hope you finally get Symphobia this year. You'll love it.



I've kinda fallen out of love with Symphobia actually. I think I played around with it too much on Trysound and got bored.


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## choc0thrax (Dec 19, 2009)

Christian Marcussen @ Sat Dec 19 said:


> As for Horner:I like him, and to be honest I tend to like his melodies better than the original he copies from. Take the Braveheart theme - far better than Holsts :D . Same goes for his Willow theme, Glory and others. Heretical I know...



Well I fully agree. Classical generally sux teh big 1.


EDIT: What happened to the snowflakes? I bet some forum grinch pm'd Fred to take them down or something.


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## Aaron Sapp (Dec 19, 2009)

I don't know... it's really easy to bash Horner for writing another similar score, but in this day and age I think he knows it's a smarter move to view this industry as a business first. Listening to his old scores like "Land Before Time" and "An American Tale", it's blatantly obvious he's an incredibly gifted composer. It's not like that kind of talent just disappears. He understands the kind of 'sound' he's known for. Why risk a potentially rejected score trying something new, fresh n' exciting?  I'm sure his inner child was like "Oh wow, I could try all this cool shit for the score!" -- immediately replaced by the reality of it all. "Don't think the aleatoric brass cluster Ligeti stuff will fly with Cameron." 

Look at "Troy" (ironically) -- Yared's score was gorgeous -- yet it was rejected. Why? Audiences aren't nearly as open aurally as they were decades ago. If audiences were as open today as they were 20-30 years ago, he would've written a totally different score. 

Haven't seen the film yet. I'm sure those IMAX tickets are sold out for weeks out here... baugh!


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## Niah (Dec 19, 2009)

lux @ Fri Dec 18 said:


> i felt the need for another Horner thead.



hahah

and you know that zimmer has to pop out eventually too


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## Ranietz (Dec 19, 2009)

Aaron Sapp @ Sat 19 Dec said:


> I don't know... it's really easy to bash Horner for writing another similar score, but in this day and age I think he knows it's a smarter move to view this industry as a business first. Listening to his old scores like "Land Before Time" and "An American Tale", it's blatantly obvious he's an incredibly gifted composer. It's not like that kind of talent just disappears. He understands the kind of 'sound' he's known for. Why risk a potentially rejected score trying something new, fresh n' exciting?  I'm sure his inner child was like "Oh wow, I could try all this cool [email protected]#t for the score!" -- immediately replaced by the reality of it all. "Don't think the aleatoric brass cluster Ligeti stuff will fly with Cameron."
> 
> Look at "Troy" (ironically) -- Yared's score was gorgeous -- yet it was rejected. Why? Audiences aren't nearly as open aurally as they were decades ago. If audiences were as open today as they were 20-30 years ago, he would've written a totally different score.
> 
> Haven't seen the film yet. I'm sure those IMAX tickets are sold out for weeks out here... baugh!



I agree. It seems like Hollywood won't take any chances thees days. They just take the same old movie cliches, dumb down the story and add a ton of CG effects.
The same goes for music. I guess there's a reason John Debney didn't get to score Iron Man. The way I heard it, the director wanted Debney but the producers said no. Hopefully Debney will set the record straight with Iron Man 2.


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## lux (Dec 19, 2009)

Niah @ Sat Dec 19 said:


> lux @ Fri Dec 18 said:
> 
> 
> > i felt the need for another Horner thead.
> ...



yeah. The new chocoscina love affair makes this evenience even more scary


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## billval3 (Dec 19, 2009)

mf @ Sat Dec 19 said:


> billval3 @ Sat Dec 19 said:
> 
> 
> > josejherring @ Fri Dec 18 said:
> ...



I agree with you only partially. I think the way the score serves the film is VERY important, but then how do you measure that? Isn't it possible to say that the originality of the music is one of the standards by which we measure it?

Also, when I say artistic merit, I'm talking about something above and beyond the commercial success of a work of art. I believe it's possible and appropriate for us to make aesthetic judgments of something without regard to its popularity.


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## theheresy (Dec 19, 2009)

I don't mean to bash Horner completely because 

1. I think he's probably the most talented composer in Hollywood period, maybe in Hollywood history as far as the beautiful tapestries he weaves and 

2. I think the Avatar main theme is one of the most beautiful ever written despite being very close to Titanic's 

I just wanted to bring this up cus it just still amazes me how much he rips off himself. I used to think that it was due to time constraints, you know, not enough time to do a score so you just reuse stuff you already know works etc..but this film he worked on for ONE YEAR...so it's definitely something he's doing 100% deliberately at least that proves it. 

This to me is the most beautiful track of the soundtrack

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXngtO8sSYY


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## billval3 (Dec 19, 2009)

I want to mention that I'm not particularly trying to bash him either. I'm just arguing against the philosophy that someone cannot be critiqued because of how successful they've been.


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## choc0thrax (Dec 19, 2009)

theheresy @ Sat Dec 19 said:


> I don't mean to bash Horner completely because
> 
> 1. I think he's probably the most talented composer in Hollywood period, maybe in Hollywood history as far as the beautiful tapestries he weaves and
> 
> ...



I was about to form a response here but like my brain shut down from stress.


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## Christian Marcussen (Dec 19, 2009)

hehe yeah -and I even like Horner. 

Of his recent stuff I quite like theme from All the Kings Men.


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## José Herring (Dec 19, 2009)

Instead of judging or bashing him on what you perceive he is doing wrong a more constructive way of critiquing his work is by what he's doing right. Not that I agree for one minute that stealing from yourself is bad. Which it isn't and all composers in history have done this. But, looking at it from that stand point of "how can he get away with it" is just supremely stupid imo. Look at what he's doing that's right. Be able to get the same results yourself, then you may be able to afford the luxury of a critique. Critiquing him while not having the least notion of what he's doing or how he gets the results he does is cutting you off from really trying to understand how he's able to do what he does. Only part time amateurs and audiences have the luxury of being critical. Professional composers really can't. Far better to look at what's successful and try to get that technique than to dismiss something because you disagree with the methods. It's like Zimmer bashing. Is it important as a composer to like it? Not in the least. Is it important to know how he gets what he gets, You Betcha'. 

So these bashing threads turn out to be just useless, but I do implore people to discuss what it is about him that's successful.

I'll start it off. I attended a lecture by Horner. He said that he spends days just thinking about the color that he wants to create. Once he's decided on that writing the music comes very easy to him. Also, he's feeling a lot the pressure of deadlines. He admits that with all the changes taking place in the post production period that doing scores by hand holds him back time wise. He says changes are coming in daily and it's hard to make forward progress when you have to go back and change music that you wrote last week but have to change because this week they made a change in the picture. As far as copying himself, he makes a good case that in all periods of art that it's standard practice. How many water lilies did Monet paint before he got it right? How many times did Mozart use the Alberti Bass line, or the circle of 5ths progression? Who would Bach be without the use of the bass ostinato and pedal point techniques?


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## billval3 (Dec 19, 2009)

josejherring @ Sat Dec 19 said:


> So these bashing threads turn out to be just useless, but I do implore people to discuss what it is about him that's successful.



Maybe your comments aren't directed at me, but once again, I'm not bashing him. I merely questioned his choice in regards to the EXTENT to which he copies himself. I'm curious about it because it's not a choice I would naturally make, although I certainly think we all copy ourselves, so to speak, to one extent or another. It seems to me that's what we're referring to when speaking of one's personal "style."

Horner may very well have something to teach us on this front. If so, I'm glad the question is being posed. After all, you won't often learn the answer to something unless you ask!


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## David Story (Dec 19, 2009)

I like Avatar a lot. I feel it's a cinematic greatest hits, remastered by WETA. Every department, including music, delivers a fresh take on what they've done well before. That can be a formula for success.


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## _taylor (Dec 19, 2009)

I love what he did for 'Apocalypto'. 

Have yet to see / hear 'Avatar', but anyone apart of 'Commando' is the shit, period! :D


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## re-peat (Dec 19, 2009)

josejherring @ Sat Dec 19 said:


> (...) How many times did Mozart use the Alberti Bass line, or the circle of 5ths progression? Who would Bach be without the use of the bass ostinato and pedal point techniques? (...)


José, excuse me, but if one needs an example of 'supremely stupid', the above quote is difficult to match.

_


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## Frederick Russ (Dec 19, 2009)

Horner is a good composer with great chops who seems to choose 80-90% unoriginality for whatever purpose, business or schedule. Even Jerry Goldsmith busted him on it. 

I feel no need to either attack or praise him because of how he likes to work. What he does seems to fit what's happening on screen and like I said earlier, he works and continues to work because he delivers what's expected in the timeline given.

That said, we either like what he does or we don't - which is neither constructive or destructive, it just is. People are entitled to opinions and because people express them doesn't necessarily make this a bashing thread.


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## José Herring (Dec 19, 2009)

I thought I was being rather clever myself. Having suffered through many, many hours of analysis of all these composers work I know what I said is true.

Jose


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## ChrisAxia (Dec 20, 2009)

Like most people here, I both admire Horner and sometimes cringe when I hear themes that were poorly 'copied'. I think he has written some of the most memorable themes in film music. Legends of the Fall, Titanic, Zorro to name but a few, and the scoring of the action sections in Zorro 2 was outstanding.

The worst for me was Enemy at the Gate, which was clearly temp'd with Schindler's List and was the worst 'plagiarism' of that beautiful theme I could imagine! That was very disappointing...

~Chris


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## re-peat (Dec 20, 2009)

josejherring @ Sat Dec 19 said:


> I thought I was being rather clever myself. Having suffered through many, many hours of analysis of all these composers work I know what I said is true.
> 
> Jose


Yes, it’s painfully obvious that you thought you were being clever. No need to underline that, José. It’s precisely the confidence with which you wrote these statements that makes them so supremely what they are: stupid. And now knowing that you’ve spent many, many hours analyzing these composers, is even more worrying, if I may say so.

Anyway. I believe you’re wrong and I’ll tell you why (even though I have the distinct feeling this is gonna be an utter waste of time): if you had done any of the analysis which you’ve claimed you’ve done, you would have learned within 5 minutes - and not: after many, many hours - that the systematic usage of certain harmonic cadenza’s, melodic ornamentations, pedal bass notes or any other compositional device which we’ve come to associate with Bach and/or Mozart, is characteristic of the musical grammar and vocabulary of the period. That was their _language_: of course, it reappeared in every work they wrote.

As such, it is completely and fundamentally different from the copying of ‘musical ideas’ which some people accuse Horner of. There’s a huge difference in, on the one hand, re-using musical ideas (themes, phrases, etc. ...) and, on the other, speaking a certain musical language.
There are examples of both in Horner’s work: re-using his famous eirie stringchords from ‘Aliens’ in ‘Patriot Games’ is an almost literal copy of a musical idea. Using very similar musical devices in both ‘Sneakers’ and ‘The Pelican Brief’ (such as those explosive dissonant piano motives) is an example of speaking a certain musical language.

If we follow your logic, Mozart shouldn’t even have bothered composing in the first place, should he? Cause all he did was copying Haydn, right? And one may also wonder what on earth possessed Bach to think he could ever be a composer of substance: surely, most of the compositional devices which he worked with, had already been used by thousands of composers before him? And you would also condemn any jazz bass player who does the walking bass thing, I assume, because they’re always doing the same thing: copying themselves, yes?

As for your comparing Monet's quest for pictorial essence to Hornòp$   »Xp$   »Xp$   »Xp$   »X	p$   »X
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## sevaels (Dec 20, 2009)

> I don't mean to bash Horner completely because
> 
> 1. I think he's probably the most talented composer in Hollywood period, maybe in Hollywood history as far as the beautiful tapestries he weaves and
> 
> ...





I agree with Choco......my brain hurts.


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## Aaron Sapp (Dec 20, 2009)

re-peat: Your penchant to educate is often crippled on this board. I really don't care if people think they know what they're talking about, but to so confidently call someone out with both explanation and insult -- _that's_ an utter waste of time. 

If you weren't a talented composer, your posts would be borderline hilarious. But you are talented. So we listen. But not really.


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## mf (Dec 20, 2009)

Aaron Sapp @ Sun Dec 20 said:


> If you weren't a talented composer, your posts would be borderline hilarious.


I think re-peat makes a very good point on the distinction between 'language use' and '(self-)copying.' And that's probably related to his good understanding of music.


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## RiffWraith (Dec 20, 2009)

Joining this a bit late, and I MUST go back to p. 1 here, even tho the rest of you are way past this. Every so often, I see threads (here and elsewhere) where someone says, "OMG - this is such a rip-off fo this!!!"....and extremely rarely is one even remotely simiar to the other. I actually have had a couple of pm convos with a couple of people on this very forum, where it went like this:

"How the hell is that similiar???"

"I have no idea."

So, again - back to p.1:



theheresy @ Sat Dec 19 said:


> Try this on for size
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AN04imFDK8
> 
> ...



How is that plagairism? The first few notes are the same - but that's it. The rest of the notes are different, the chord progression is different, the orchestration is different, the rhythm is different....are you going only on those few notes? And tell me - how many film scores have those three notes as the begnning to a cue? Dozens.



Justus @ Sat Dec 19 said:


> Not just Gladiator, POTC as well:
> http://www.box.net/shared/mlxike9rq3
> 
> It's a very nice melody though...



I am sorry - that's not even close.

I have not seen Avatar, nor heard the strack, but Horner is famous for similiarity between scores. Does he plagairise himself? I don't know. But remember one thing - the finality of the score is not up to the composer.

Cheers.


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## mf (Dec 20, 2009)

RiffWraith @ Sun Dec 20 said:


> But remember one thing - the finality of the score is not up to the composer.


Yes but remembering that would hamper composer bashing on forums.


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## re-peat (Dec 20, 2009)

Aaron Sapp @ Sun Dec 20 said:


> re-peat: Your penchant to educate is often crippled on this board. I really don't care if people think they know what they're talking about, but to so confidently call someone out with both explanation and insult -- _that's_ an utter waste of time.
> 
> If you weren't a talented composer, your posts would be borderline hilarious. But you are talented. So we listen. But not really.



Oh dear. _Another_ one.

If you stopped caring whether people know what they're talking about or not, Aaron, then that's your problem. Although I want to add that I find that a rather strange stance to take, you being a moderator on a forum, no? I mean, if it no longer matters if what's being said here is more or less accurate or not, then what's the bloody point?
Do we really have to accept people talking out of their arse without being allowed to say something about it? And is anyone who values a decent minimum of 'factual reliability' to be called 'hilarious' from now on? 

Anyway, I have not slipped quite as deep into the quicksand of lazy indifference that seems to have you in its firm grip, so excuse me, but I can't and I won't sit back and say nothing if someone talks utter nonsense like José did with his remarks about Mozart and Bach. Statements which are not only entirely wrong, as anyone who's even only slightly familiar with the subject matter will tell you, but which I also find quite offensive in their shameless stupidity. It's not only our right, but it's also our duty to call him out. And I'm not using the _pluralis majestatis_ here.

And finally: I really fail to see what my supposed talent has got to do with anything. Jeezesboringchrist, everytime I say something on this forum that doesn't go down well with some prick or other, there's always someone who starts blabbing about my talent. What's that all about? Is my talent, assuming it exists, some currency perhaps which buys me a certain amount of discomforting leeway or what? A talented nuisance is allowed more room to manoeuvre here than a plain nuisance, is that it? Highly bizarre thinking, if you ask me.

Something of a disappointment here, Aaron, you of all people, saying these silly things.

_


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## RiffWraith (Dec 20, 2009)

mf @ Sun Dec 20 said:


> RiffWraith @ Sun Dec 20 said:
> 
> 
> > But remember one thing - the finality of the score is not up to the composer.
> ...



Ah crap, I forgot about that! :roll:


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## lux (Dec 20, 2009)

re-peat @ Sun Dec 20 said:


> Anyway. I believe you’re wrong and I’ll tell you why (even though I have the distinct feeling this is gonna be an utter waste of time): if you had done any of the analysis which you’ve claimed you’ve done, you would have learned within 5 minutes - and not: after many, many hours - that the systematic usage of certain harmonic cadenza’s, melodic ornamentations, pedal bass notes or any other compositional device which we’ve come to associate with Bach and/or Mozart, is characteristic of the musical grammar and vocabulary of the period. That was their _language_: of course, it reappeared in every work they wrote.



this sounds to me as uproven as everything else. Paradoxally I'm more sure about Horner behaviours and qualities despite his often reuse of some musical devices than what happened at Mozart or Bach's time. 

In general i tend to not place utterly bold statements, expecially if based on pure literature, for the same reason that i could be proven wrong. At least i accept with myself that i could.


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## re-peat (Dec 20, 2009)

Luca,

My usage of the, in my opinion, immensely satisfyingly accurate term ‘stupid’ (insofar as this applies to the remarks of José anyway) was directly inspired by the indentical choice of word when that very same José described the opinions of several others who questioned the integrity of James Horner. 
Just wondering: are some people more entitled to use the word ‘stupid’ than others? Cause, try as I may, but I don’t see any indignified remarks about José using the word, whereas — as was to be expected — already two people seem to find my usage of the exact same word insulting, hilarious and cheap. Or is that because I am more talented than José?

Secondly, I’d be more than happy to talk elementary musical history, style, content and form with you — I really would — but since you appear to find all that dull and academic, I really don’t see why I should bother. I’m not stupid, you know.

_


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## lux (Dec 20, 2009)

i simply find dull and academic calling stupid based on pure literature. Whatever formal analisys is unable to offer you the "smoking gun".

If you have no smoking gun and you call someone else stupid, well you look dull and academic as you give an absolute meaning to something that doesnt deserve it. Its not semantics, its just evidence.

note taken about you dont being stupid, thanks.


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## watikutju (Dec 20, 2009)

ummmm.....
guys, just say it.....

My Horner is bigger than your Horner

there.....done :roll:


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## nikolas (Dec 20, 2009)

Aaron Sapp @ Sat Dec 19 said:


> I don't know... it's really easy to bash Horner for writing another similar score, but in this day and age I think he knows it's a smarter move to view this industry as a business first. Listening to his old scores like "Land Before Time" and "An American Tale", it's blatantly obvious he's an incredibly gifted composer. It's not like that kind of talent just disappears. He understands the kind of 'sound' he's known for. Why risk a potentially rejected score trying something new, fresh n' exciting?  I'm sure his inner child was like "Oh wow, I could try all this cool [email protected]#t for the score!" -- immediately replaced by the reality of it all. "Don't think the aleatoric brass cluster Ligeti stuff will fly with Cameron."


I just HAVE to say this. I know that many people are mentioning it in various forms, but here's my own opinion.

The music in "Land Before Time" was SO close, but REALLY SO CLOSE to "Peter and the Wolf" (I'm talking about phrases, not only aestheticly and some borrowings) that I really got annoyed. 

"An American Tale" was again very very very close to Coplands' music. But I'm not too fammiliar to pinpoint which phrases, etc, and there's no problem.

"Red heat" (I think this was the film), when I first saw it, I had already heard and loved the Cantata by Prokofiev, where there is a whole choir passage called "Philosophy". The opening was exactly that. Ripped bar by bar, with some ugly orchestration. And because this was years and years ago, on Greek telly (who knows what kind of copy the channels here had) there was no mention of Prokofievs' name (while the DVDs out now do contain the information about Prokofiev).

These reasons have made me dislike Horner's work heavily! 

Then again I do love Willows' score! And the theme and everything and have the CD and so on (and I'm not a film composer!)

The Avatar score was just such an unbelievably lost chance of doing something very nice. I mean you get all this imagies, all these new grounds, all this immerse into a new planet and you do what? Put a voice since some kind of Irish/folk/whateverish track?

I'm sorry but I'm very dissapointed by these choices. It could very well be James choices, or it could be James choices. It could also be James (some other James from the crew) choices or James (from the company) choices. It's definately a James to blame, but it's hard to know which one. However, the consistancy of the above elements in most/all of Horners scores... (those that I know off (and for some reason I thought that T 2 was by him...))

In other words: Don't know the person, so can't speak for him. Several of his works I don't like for the reasons sited above. No idea why these reasons appear. But it remains that Avatar music bothered me! It really did!


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## Dynamitec (Dec 20, 2009)

I love VI Control! And I wish all of you Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!

That said: I just opened the YouTube link with Horners Avatar music from the last page, got something to eat and drink and got my self read to read this whole thread! And I must say, I really enjoy these conversations here. Better than any daily soap I know 

The posts and the reaction to them here - a typical pattern of VI Control. The only thing missing are the audience laughs and "oooos" to support them. Then well known characters like Re-peat, José, Lux, Nicolas and many others enter the stage. And you just feel at home. I really love those threads.

Come one guys... is it really necessary everytime? .... YES, obviously  
But if you feel hurt by someone here at any time, simply take a step back and look at it from a little distance.

We don't talk about tactics to avoid war, saving lives, minimize polution or earth warming - we talk about music. With all necessary seriousness - which everybody working in this business needs to have - it's still "only" music!

PS: If someone wants to call someone "stupid", feel free to call me stupid! Because I couldn't have done the score for Avatar :( Even if I had reused all of my songs and themes I ever wrote. I couldn't have done it even if someone had given me a sheet with all main motives written down.


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## José Herring (Dec 20, 2009)

re-peat @ Sun Dec 20 said:


> josejherring @ Sat Dec 19 said:
> 
> 
> > I thought I was being rather clever myself. Having suffered through many, many hours of analysis of all these composers work I know what I said is true.
> ...



It's your time to waste my bubba. So waste away.

Really you're splitting semantic hairs. Lifting a "musical devise" as you call it and lifting a "musical idea" are really quite the same. I mean really I know you think you have a point. But I'd like to point out that early Beethoven sounded almost exactly like Hayden. Early Mozart sounded almost exactly like his farther who in turn sounded almost exactly like Rameau (though a tad more boring). Lifting musical ideas is common place in any other time period. But today for some reason people feel that that's somehow wrong. I mean do we bash Ravel because he lifted techniques and melodic ideas from Debussy? I think I was 16 or 17 before I was able to tell those two apart. I mean really think about it. "Ah, there he goes again. Using that same old whole tone scale. Sounds exactly like Debussy. I mean doesn't the opening of LaMar sound so much like one of themes to Prelude of a Faun?" It's a ridiculous statement to make. 

Do we bash Mozart cause he used the same melody in his clarinet quintet that he used in his Clarinet concerto? No we don't. So why worry if Horner is doing the same. I really don't think it was wrong if John Williams to quote Aslo Spracht Zarathustra for his Superman Themes. I think it was rather brilliant.

Be as insulting as you want my bro. But really I think you're kind of arguing on thin ice given the history of music.

But given our history I must say that I won't be in this conversation for long but I will end with the sincere statement that I do completely see your point and that I do feel that you are completely entitled to your opinion. I just see it differently.


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## choc0thrax (Dec 20, 2009)

--Just got back from seeing Avatar--

It sucked. What a boring ass movie. Stephen Lang is so cool and there could have been potential if they had given him a character that didn't suck. Michelle Rodriguez's characters decisions made no sense to me, they could've fixed that up a bit by giving her a tiny little back story but I guess in the 10 years that you're making a film you just don't have time to fix things. The visuals at times were beautiful but 80% of the time they were underwhelming or cartoonish. I laughed when that robot pulled out that big robot sized knife...yeah cool... I also didn't care what happened to any of the characters and kept waiting for it all to end. I don't see how 3D is the future, it makes my head hurt and cheapens the whole experience.

Hard to believe a film with no balls was created by the dude behind some of my favourite films like T2 and Aliens.


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## mf (Dec 20, 2009)

Jose, with all due respect, your post above gives me a strong impression that you are making everything way to easy for re-peat. He obviously has a very keen eye for the sorts of mistakes and errors you are making when generalizing and confusing among categories (in statements like: Lifting a "musical devise" as you call it and lifting a "musical idea" are really quite the same.) Contrarily to that, he is making a sound and well articulated point on keeping separate the language-related morphological devices from the expression-related syntactical ones. Try to see his point, it's not very abstract and it could prove very useful practically. What he's basically saying is really simple and common sense:
- Background devices, like "the Alberti Bass line, the circle of 5ths progression, ostinatos and pedal point" that you mentioned, are there to be used and re-used; they function as language-related morphological devices.
- Foreground devices, like full-fledged themes, is best for a composer worth his salt to leave them unique and avoid copying them; they function as expression-related syntactical devices.


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## José Herring (Dec 20, 2009)

Had posted this long thing but ahhhh Never mind.

Pointless discussion really. 

Best,

Jose


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## gsilbers (Dec 20, 2009)

well, i saw avatar. did not find it that it was that good. it wasnt bad but not good. 

music was ok, it did its job.. mainly to be buried under so much sfx.  


btw. that movie made me feel like i was getting yelled at!! 

they sure pushed the save the rain forest and military is bad agenda on it. i am up for al that but man.. just way tooo much imo

i think its just sooo much marketing and money placed on it that it only needed to be ok to be a sucess. not a good movie but an ok movie. 

the cgi stuff of course rocks but nothing that we havent seen. well, only if u are not into cgi stuff 
and u got sold into seeing this movie which is for "grown ups" .


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## Patrick de Caumette (Dec 20, 2009)

Christian Marcussen @ Sat Dec 19 said:


> Choc0 - I agree.. The Missing is a great store, in spite of it's occational lifts from Braveheart.
> As for Horner:I like him, and to be honest I tend to like his melodies better than the original he copies from. Take the Braveheart theme - far better than Holsts :D . Same goes for his Willow theme, Glory and others. Heretical I know...



This is a perfect example of a contemporary trend: if things keep going this way, a few years from now Stravinsky, Bartok, Debussy will all be forgotten (I don't think so), but their memories will still be present, thanks to film composers that will have dumbed down their work to 1 minutes cues in B movies for the world masses.

Is it that listening to the master works gives you a headache?
If you can get through that stage, your understanding of music will expand...


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## Patrick de Caumette (Dec 20, 2009)

re-peat @ Sun Dec 20 said:


> josejherring @ Sat Dec 19 said:
> 
> 
> > All we have to do now, I guess, is wait for Patrick to step in and inquire about my scholastic background.
> > _



That one cracked me up. Really. :mrgreen: 

I couldn't care less about someone's educational background.
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## mf (Dec 20, 2009)

Thomas_J @ Sun Dec 20 said:


> lack of insight renders the critic incapable of offering a truly balanced view.


True and well put. But who needs a critic's view?

Regarding a film score, I first ask these two questions: Does the music serve the film well? and then - How does it do it? (or, why it doesn't?) Generally, the answers to these simple questions cover a great deal of what's really important about film scoring.


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## nikolas (Dec 20, 2009)

Dynamitec @ Sun Dec 20 said:


> PS: If someone wants to call someone "stupid", feel free to call me stupid! Because I couldn't have done the score for Avatar :( Even if I had reused all of my songs and themes I ever wrote. I couldn't have done it even if someone had given me a sheet with all main motives written down.


But that's not the point, is it? I don't think I could've done the score either. I would probably suck at film music! I don't do film music! This doesn't mean I can't really judge the end result...

(Thanks for calling me a well known character! I'm very proud right now! Honestly!)

EDIT: Synthetic, I hope you don't mind. I cut your image and shrunk it a bit... Better this way I hope... :oops:


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## Christian Marcussen (Dec 20, 2009)

Patrick de Caumette @ Sun Dec 20 said:


> Christian Marcussen @ Sat Dec 19 said:
> 
> 
> > Choc0 - I agree.. The Missing is a great store, in spite of it's occational lifts from Braveheart.
> ...



Why so patronizing?

I actually I quite like classical music, and appreciate the complexity of masters like Stravinsky. However the Braveheart theme touches me more emotionally than Holst. I simply find the melodies more memorable and beautiful, and I'm a sucker for melodies. I agree that Horner might dumb down certain aspects, but in doing so he also finds the essence of the melody. This dumbed down version works for film because it works on an emotional rather than intellectual level - and I can appreciate that. 

Sometimes I like watching Aliens and other times I like watching 2001. Most of the time I would go for Aliens, but when I'm in the mood I thoroughly enjoy 2001.


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## ChrisAxia (Dec 21, 2009)

Thomas_J @ Mon Dec 21 said:


> ChrisAxia, I thought it was funny that you mentioned Zorro 2. Conrad Pope ghost wrote quite a bit of the action material in that score, the train track being one of the more substantial cues. If you listen closely you can hear some of the textures frequently utilized in his orchestrations for JW. Surprising that no one started a thread yet on how Horner ripped off Williams in Zorro 2, or how Pope ripped off Williams, or Williams ripped off Pope  My point is, there's so much going on behind the scenes which your average Joe-critic has absolutely no knowledge of - and that lack of insight renders the critic incapable of offering a truly balanced view.



Hey Thomas,

Thanks for that info. Nice to have someone 'inside' to keep us informed! Actually, it wasn't so much the train sequence I was thinking of, though it was excellent, but the skilful way the themes were intertwined with the action music in some of the sword fight/chase scenes, from what I remember. 

I was always really worried if any of my themes were close to plagiarising anything I was aware of, and any more than 3 consecutive notes would always make me re-write them, so I was very shocked when Horner's Braveheart theme used 5 consecutive notes (and the same harmony and rhythm) as Holst's piece. Maybe it is becoming more acceptable to 'borrow' longer sequences as time marches on...

~Chris


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## mjc (Dec 21, 2009)

watikutju @ Mon Dec 21 said:


> ummmm.....
> guys, just say it.....
> 
> My Horner is bigger than your Horner
> ...




Haha!

...well...I thought it was funny anyway :lol:


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## Andreas Moisa (Dec 21, 2009)

The discussion is spiced with heat today 

I don't blame any composer that rips off from his own work. I noticed that I tend to re-use certain "devices" myself and I also play a lot more "devices" when playing guitar live. But so do other musicians.
When a singer does ad-lips you can tell who he/she is because certain phrases and lines are always similar. Why shouldn't a composer do the same-only because he has more time and can deliberately say "I used this before, so I better come up with something new"? But what if he feels exactly this music? Then what?

When it comes to the movie - I haven't seen it yet. And I'm not so sure if I really want to. My initial feeling when I first saw the trailer was that this movie would suck.
Silly looking blue Aliens? No interesting story? What is this? CGI all over the place?
Come on. In ten years everyone will tell you how crappy the CGI was. So there has to be a great story - that I fail to see.


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## Evan Gamble (Dec 21, 2009)

All I am going to say is over-all...

Holy shit I loved that film! (and the story too)


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## StrangeCat (Dec 21, 2009)

I am seeing this Sunday!! Damn I want to see it at an Imax! I know few people that have seen it already and they told me just see it! Well I am going find time on 'er that is Sunday and See it already! Damn Christmas getting in the way!


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## RMWSound (Dec 21, 2009)

Just got back from the IMAX. That was a kick ass movie. Crazy considering I thought the first trailer made it look terrible. 

Horner had some good moments as well. Sure there is some familiar sounding stuff in there, but you can say that about most scores.

Will probably try to catch this one again before it leaves the IMAX. The visuals are miles ahead of anything I've seen, and the story is solid.


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## Evan Gamble (Dec 21, 2009)

RMWSound @ Mon Dec 21 said:


> Just got back from the IMAX. That was a kick ass movie. Crazy considering I thought the first trailer made it look terrible.
> 
> Horner had some good moments as well. Sure there is some familiar sounding stuff in there, but you can say that about most scores.
> 
> Will probably try to catch this one again before it leaves the IMAX. The visuals are miles ahead of anything I've seen, and the story is solid.



+1


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## re-peat (Dec 21, 2009)

josejherring @ Sun Dec 20 said:


> (...) Really you're splitting semantic hairs. Lifting a "musical devise" as you call it and lifting a "musical idea" are really quite the same.


José,

Semantic hairsplitting? Oooh no, I don’t think so. There’s actually a very big and fundamental difference between, on the one hand, a 'musical idea' and, on the other, a 'musical device'. In short: _one has a defining musical identity, and the other doesn’t._

A melody, the most obvious candidate to be called ‘a musical idea’ (although there are many others), more often than not is very much a defining element of the music it is part of, whereas an Alberti bass or baroque ornamentation isn’t. Musical devices are common property, musical ideas are individual property. You can’t claim a whole note scale or the sonata form, but you can claim a melody created with the whole note scale, or a piece of music structured according to the sonata form. Pretty big difference, it seems to me. No?

Ravel and Debussy may both use the whole tone scale, yes, but that in itself has no significance (well, not in this particular context anyway). It's what each of them does with this scale that reveals their individuality, and not the scale as such.
Mozart may have used the Alberti bass on countless occasions, very true, but that in itself is not what defines him as a composer, nor does his usage of the Alberti bass defines the work in which it is used. That particular device is simply one element, among many others, of Mozart's musical language (which he shared with many other composers) and it's how he uses this element — when and where he uses it, when he starts using it and when he stops using it — which makes all the difference and which sets him apart from his fellow composers who were using the exact same device. Even Stravinsky uses the Alberti bass on occasion, but I'm sure you'll agree that it sounds completely different with him — and above all: completely, authentically Stravinskian — than it does with Mozart.

So yes, from a distance, early Beethoven might sound a lot like Mozart or Haydn, or Webern might appear to have stylistic affinities with Berg, but no more than a Wordsworth poem resembles one by Coleridge. Same language, maybe even the same structure, similar use of common devices, and yet ... a wholly different outcome.

The observational mistake which you're making, if you allow me, is that you're reducing a piece of music to a collection of its musical building blocks. If you do that, than yes, it becomes quite easy to find common elements which reappear in many different pieces of music. But music is a lot more than the sum of its (defining and non-defining) elements. In your view, one forest is a copy of another because they both have trees.

Something else: Williams quoting Strauss? Really? I’m very sorry, but he doesn’t. Why do you keep saying things which are simply not true? What Williams does, is write a wholly original theme which features the interval of the upper 5th quite prominently, just as the opening fanfare of ‘Also sprach Zarathustra’ did. At the most, this may be considered an indirect reference to Nietzsche (the source of the 'superman' concept), yes, but it is definitely NOT a musical quote. Not by any stretch of its definition.

All this quoting and copying stuff is very confusing to you, isn’t it? A bit of a grey area, it seems to me. Which is very fortunate as it brings us nicely back to the main subject of this thread, James Horner.

_


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## lux (Dec 21, 2009)

I'm not sure if I understood whats your opinion on the matter re-peat.

Do you feel Horner is ripping himself off or is mostly self referencing (as i believe he does)?

The posted example about the holst thing wasnt pretty convincing to me. I still dont get what all the fuss about Horner is about honestly.


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## Dave Connor (Dec 21, 2009)

I don't think you can blame a musician sitting in an audience for wincing when they hear the same cue they've heard a several times before in other films. Sure the temp track may have been those very same cues but asking a discerning musician not to be bothered by it seems counterintuitive. The how's and why's and politics may be another matter but you would think it would bother the actual composer more than all others. That's one reason Horner takes it on the chin in these things. The other is literal quotes right and left from the Classical literature. A guy with that kind of talent should have more self respect than that.


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## mf (Dec 21, 2009)

Another insightful post, re-peat. The general idea I get from it is: Looking at things through a functional lens, that ensures discerning among the categories they belong to, which further enables one to clearly see how they interact to achieve the end purpose those things serve.

Yes, two forests would look similarly confusing to the occasional walker, but clearly distinguishable to the versed hunter.

The Nietzsche bit was particularly insightful. The 5th as a "superman" leit-motif in both Zarathustra poem and Superman movie - never considered it before, but it now seems to me VERY plausible. If it's intentional (and most likely is) then it's a truly smart hint - looks like something Williams WOULD do. Two fundamentally different categories: (using a) similar _language_ (to achieve a) different _expression_. - Strauss' motif was CGC (5th-4th), while Williams' motif was, first CG (5th) and then GCG (4th-5th). That makes a LOT of sense. Thanks for that!


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## Aaron Sapp (Dec 21, 2009)

An informative, condescension-free response. You've done it, re-peat! o-[][]-o Well... save for the last remark, which is falsely sympathetic. One step at a time. 

Sarcasm aside -- I also agree with the Sprach. Noble use of fifths followed by a fanfare doesn't necessarily consitute a lift. The tone and structure is similar (in the opening, anyway), but if we're going to use that level of scrutiny to detect musical lifts/quotes, every composer is guilty of some serious plaguerism.


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## mf (Dec 21, 2009)

Aaron Sapp @ Mon Dec 21 said:


> if we're going to use that level of scrutiny to detect musical lifts/quotes, every composer is guilty of some serious plaguerism.


As I see it, re-peat's main point is: We OUGHT to use that level of scrutiny, if we are to discern true plagiarism from the false one. In other words, differentiating between _defining_ and _non-defining_ elements enables one to tell 'lazy copying' from 'using common language for achieving certain expression.'
These are necessary distinctions to be made by anyone attempting to judge a piece of music, or a composer.


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## Aaron Sapp (Dec 21, 2009)

Yeah, but Superman _clearly_ isn't lazy coyping. At least to me. If the similarities between Sprach and Superman (a fanfare following some writing in fifth's over a drone) at all implies plagiarism, every corner of every piece of music would be suspect. Familiar rhythms, orchestration techniques, voice-leading, inversions, etc. Even chords! Use a Neopolitan chord eight times in quick succession -- Elfman rip!

Composition is inherently plagiaristic. You listen/study music, you apply what you learned into your music and learn how to shape those influences transparently for whatever given application. Nobody is truly an exception. Maybe except Stravinsky. :mrgreen: 

I've heard worse on this board. Someone once accused Chris Beck of ripping off Goldenthal because he used horn trills in an action cue. I about fell outta my chair.


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## synthetic (Dec 21, 2009)

Listening to the Avatar soundtrack CD today. How hard is it to write a chromatic motif? Do you really have to use the same one for every film since 1986? You could pick four pitches at random and that would work just as well. Goldsmith had a different one for every score -- he had at least one main theme and some motif he could develop for action scenes, suspense, etc. Even Goldsmith's more disappointing 90s scores had this. 

15 seconds into the soundtrack and I'm hearing the "cha-cha---cha-cha-cha---cha-cha-cha" flute chuff from Patriot Games and danger motif from Star Trek III.


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## kid-surf (Dec 21, 2009)

choc0thrax @ Sun Dec 20 said:


> --Just got back from seeing Avatar--
> 
> It sucked. What a boring ass movie. Stephen Lang is so cool and there could have been potential if they had given him a character that didn't suck. Michelle Rodriguez's characters decisions made no sense to me, they could've fixed that up a bit by giving her a tiny little back story but I guess in the 10 years that you're making a film you just don't have time to fix things. The visuals at times were beautiful but 80% of the time they were underwhelming or cartoonish. I laughed when that robot pulled out that big robot sized knife...yeah cool... I also didn't care what happened to any of the characters and kept waiting for it all to end. I don't see how 3D is the future, it makes my head hurt and cheapens the whole experience.
> 
> Hard to believe a film with no balls was created by the dude behind some of my favourite films like T2 and Aliens.



I'll take your word for it...I trust our sensibilities would match. So, thanks for saving me $10. Actually, I have that free pass. I meant, thanks for saving me 4 hours of my life - which is worth far more than $10.

Btw - check out this link. 

http://io9.com/5422666/when-will-white- ... ike-avatar


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## choc0thrax (Dec 21, 2009)

Heh, well I could be wrong, a lot of people seem to really like the film somehow. I went with 3 other people and out of the 4 of us two thought it sucked and two loved it. It was a tense drive home. 

You could always just watch Dances With Wolves and then read this book:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_Me_Joe The combination would be roughly the same as seeing Avatar.

I did have some fun during the movie at one point though, where Sam Worthington's CG character is screaming something about it being their land! I screamed out freeeeddooommmm! in my best Mel Gibson impression. It was great.

Checked out the link. Good article but I did like District 9. 8) 

P.S. I can't understand this Sam Worthington phenomenon. He's suddenly in all these huge films, like there's some shadowy group pulling strings somewhere to get him where he is. I find him so forgettable and indistinct, he's human mayonnaise.


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## theheresy (Dec 21, 2009)

choc0thrax @ Mon Dec 21 said:


> P.S. I can't understand this Sam Worthington phenomenon. He's suddenly in all these huge films, like there's some shadowy group pulling strings somewhere to get him where he is. I find him so forgettable and indistinct, he's human mayonnaise.



The infamous Shia Labeouf phenomenon.


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## hbuus (Dec 21, 2009)

choc0thrax @ Mon Dec 21 said:


> I did have some fun during the movie at one point though, where Sam Worthington's CG character is screaming something about it being their land! I screamed out freeeeddooommmm! in my best Mel Gibson impression. It was great.



That reminds me of when I saw "Air Force One" in the movies with some friends a few years ago. Starring Harrison Ford as US President & one-man army vs. the evil terrorists, at one point I cried out "Da-da-da-daaaaa da-da-daaaa!" (the theme from Raiders of the lost ark). Which caused quite a bit of laughter among the audience, who was also already making sighs and whispered/half-loud comments about how ridiculous the movie was...!

Henrik


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## Christian Marcussen (Dec 21, 2009)

Why can't you guys just shut up when going the the cinema?


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## choc0thrax (Dec 21, 2009)

Christian Marcussen @ Mon Dec 21 said:


> Why can't you guys just shut up when going the the cinema?



Humanity needs us.


The only thing I remember from Air Force One is "Get off my plane!" because my friend kept yelling it as he forcefully kicked me out of his car.


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## Christian Marcussen (Dec 21, 2009)

I'm just really allergic to idots shouting all kinds of crap during a film I have paid to see, because it bores them, or they like attention. I never knew who you were :D


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## nikolas (Dec 21, 2009)

Well, depends on the film and the shout really!

If one is able to grasp the general consent on something, then kudos to them!


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## Christian Marcussen (Dec 22, 2009)

http://www.filmtracks.com/titles/avatar.html


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## Niah (Dec 22, 2009)

oh oh

I'mmmmm the kiiiiiiiinnnggg ooooffff tthheee woooorrrlllddddd !!!!

(again)


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## José Herring (Dec 22, 2009)

Brian Ralston @ Tue Dec 22 said:


> Not that this will change anyone's opinion of the film, but I want to put it out there that no one should be surprised if Avatar gets a best picture nomination, wins best picture, or even if James Horner wins for best score on this one. I have spoken with some academy voting members who saw this the other night and while their voting process is secret and they individually abide by that really well...they also had nothing but amazing things to say of the film and the score (as heard in context of the film). More positive things were said about this film after their academy screening than I have heard in many years. So no one should be surprised if Avatar repeats what Titanic did in the Academy Award department. The word I heard most was "Flawless".



Bah! Awards and millions of dollars don't matter. What really matters is that he stop stealing his own award winning melodies. What a sell out hack.

:roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## choc0thrax (Dec 22, 2009)

When watching Avatar my friend turned to me and asked if we were watching Enemy At The Gates when the danger motif was playing. I told him no, I think we're watching Troy.


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## sevaels (Dec 22, 2009)

Snob.

:wink: <3


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## Hal (Dec 24, 2009)

this soundtrack would ve been great on a smaller movie making it bigger

but with this HUGE movie i was expecting somthing as big ala JNH "king kong" or zimmer stuff

i am not exaggerating if i say i was sad during the movie because there was so much places where the music could ve gave you goosebumps or simply made you cry and it just didint !!!!!

with all the respect to the great James Horner..that was my first comment when i left my seat "WAW what a movie-hate this soundtrack"

Love the main theme though


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## bryla (Dec 24, 2009)

Aaron Sapp @ Mon Dec 21 said:


> Someone once accused Chris Beck of ripping off Goldenthal because he used horn trills in an action cue.


I gotta admit that I'm ripping every great composer off - and I know most of you guys do to - I hate to say it, but I use strings. There, I said it! No it was not my idea, I just liked the sound and wanted to use it - is that too much to ask for? Even when I'm not using strings, I can asure you I'm using some instruments that were not my idea to begin with. 

Well, I'm spending my holidays building newly invented - by me of course - instruments for my new orchestra, the bryla-nizer!


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## ChrisAxia (Dec 24, 2009)

bryla @ Thu Dec 24 said:


> Aaron Sapp @ Mon Dec 21 said:
> 
> 
> > Someone once accused Chris Beck of ripping off Goldenthal because he used horn trills in an action cue.
> ...



Very funny Thomas! I look forward to hearing the bryla-nizer. Guess I'd better get working on the Nicol-izer!!

Happy Christmas to all,

~Chris


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## billval3 (Dec 24, 2009)

And you guys will of course record samples so we can copy your sound, right? :wink:


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## Brian Ralston (Dec 24, 2009)

Hal @ Thu Dec 24 said:


> i am not exaggerating if i say i was sad during the movie because there was so much places where the music could ve gave you goosebumps or simply made you cry and it just didint !!!!!



FYI...Horner's score was edited and hacked up a significant amount from what he scored originally. He would write something for a scene and Cameron would have Jim Henrikson (music editor) chop it up and use it in another scene somewhere else after the recording. This happened fairly regularly. So...a lot of the spotting of the music was changed after the fact and this is most likely what you are noticing where you felt the music was just not quite perfect for the scene. Horner was working off of a work print from August and that was the film he scored. (Even though he was writing and recording some music dating back to 18 months ago. They had 1 1/2 years in Post). But Cameron kept editing through November and the rest was up to the music editor. This is just how Cameron works and was the same on Aliens (which is what led to the initial Horner/Cameron break-up back then)...and it was the same on Titanic.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 24, 2009)

I'm with Jose. Horner is a total wanker hack charlatan who got where he is by being an idiot.


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## snowleopard (Dec 25, 2009)

Well, I don't think he's an idiot, at all. 

Here's what I think happens: A lot of filmmakers love his ability to write for grand orchestra in a dynamic, post-romantic style, and not only request that sound when meeting with him, have already temp tracked their film with his previous scores, and fallen in love with it. These same filmmakers don't have the same discerning ear that composers, or most studious fans have. 

Then, it gets time to scoring, and deadlines approach and Horner focuses little on originality, and everything on using his formula to match perfectly to the picture, to exquisite detail. He hits the deadline, appeases the filmmaker, 99% of the people don't notice any self-plagiarism, and most of those that might, don't much care. 

So, I think it's an issue with being passive, or lazy with his compositions. To me, I wouldn't mind so much if he just said so. Or when prompted, say that he's doing what the filmmakers like, he likes his music sound, and if you don't like it that's your opinion, too bad. But to act like it isn't so and everything is completely original is nonsense. 

Strangely, his ability to write very precise orchestral arrangements is what he's most praised for, but also where I find his most repetitive work. It's when he reaches out into experimental, ethnic and electronic stuff he can create some diverse, and at least mostly original works (Flightplan, Iris, House of Sand and Fog, The Forgotten, Beyond Borders, The Missing, etc.), works that are sometimes criticized for lacking the detail and depth (counterpoint, etc.) of his orchestral works.


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## José Herring (Dec 25, 2009)

Nick and I are being tongue and cheek making fun of some of the ridiculous points brought up in this thread.

I agree with you completely Snowkitty.

José


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## germancomponist (Dec 26, 2009)

Frederick Russ @ Sun Dec 20 said:


> Horner is a good composer with great chops who seems to choose 80-90% unoriginality for whatever purpose, business or schedule. Even Jerry Goldsmith busted him on it.
> 
> I feel no need to either attack or praise him because of how he likes to work. What he does seems to fit what's happening on screen and like I said earlier, he works and continues to work because he delivers what's expected in the timeline given.
> 
> That said, we either like what he does or we don't - which is neither constructive or destructive, it just is. People are entitled to opinions and because people express them doesn't necessarily make this a bashing thread.



+1


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## germancomponist (Dec 26, 2009)

I have bought (as a download) the CD today and am now listening. 

WOW, I am very impressed.


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## lux (Dec 26, 2009)

well it looks like i have kind of a bad taste because i always liked so many titles by horner, the perfect storm, a beautiful mind, aliens, Star Trek II and III, legend of the fall, just to name a few

i find incredible that such a talented guy with a great sense of melody gets a pile of insults out of so many composers just because he's sometimes unoriginal. 

thats just me


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## germancomponist (Dec 26, 2009)

Lux, your avatar is cool too. is this you with new hair? :-D

Oops, I mean your new picture... .


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## lux (Dec 26, 2009)

thats of course me


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## snowleopard (Dec 26, 2009)

Ahhhh, got it José. 

I should drop in more often.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 27, 2009)

Just wanted to thank everyone for taking the time to post this hilarious thread. Whilst reading it, I nearly busted a gut laughing. Btw, I heard Horner read it as well, and had to cry himself to sleep that night.

I especially liked the part about the music being written to a completely different cut and the director and a music editor cutting it up at will. Oh yes, music to picture is so important. How else will one underscore the action?? Of course, an original score isn't necessary for this task. Wait, come to think of it, neither are composers anymore, not while there's Pro Tools and music editors and music libraries. Hmmm. Do you suppose the public would have refused to see the movie if Horner's previous scores were cut up and used as the score for Avatar? Oh, you say they _are_? Well, just goes to show you! No one is going to see the film!!


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## Brian Ralston (Dec 27, 2009)

NYC Composer @ Sun Dec 27 said:


> Just wanted to thank everyone for taking the time to post this hilarious thread. Whilst reading it, I nearly busted a gut laughing. Btw, I heard Horner read it as well, and had to cry himself to sleep that night.
> 
> I especially liked the part about the music being written to a completely different cut and the director and a music editor cutting it up at will. Oh yes, music to picture is so important. How else will one underscore the action??



Since this is only written text it is hard to detect your inflection and of course I see the sarcasm...but the music editing part of this thread I can assure you is very much how Horner and music editor Jim Henrikson put the score together over a period of about a year and a half. You can find the other thead I posted in Off-Topic that has a U of Arizona video about the music editing software used and brief interviews with Horner and Henrikson about their process.
:wink:


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## snowleopard (Dec 27, 2009)

I'm waiting for SmartSound to come out with a "James Horner" library for Sonicfire Pro. 

:wink:


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## NYC Composer (Dec 27, 2009)

Brian Ralston @ Sun Dec 27 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sun Dec 27 said:
> 
> 
> > Just wanted to thank everyone for taking the time to post this hilarious thread. Whilst reading it, I nearly busted a gut laughing. Btw, I heard Horner read it as well, and had to cry himself to sleep that night.
> ...



Umm...Brian- I was pretty much responding to your earlier post in this thread. It certainly didn't look like Horner had a lot to do with 'hacking it up'- you said Cameron and the editor. Is the story different than that?


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## john rodriguez (Dec 27, 2009)

choc0thrax @ Sun Dec 20 said:


> --Just got back from seeing Avatar--
> 
> It sucked. What a boring ass movie. Stephen Lang is so cool and there could have been potential if they had given him a character that didn't suck. Michelle Rodriguez's characters decisions made no sense to me, they could've fixed that up a bit by giving her a tiny little back story but I guess in the 10 years that you're making a film you just don't have time to fix things. The visuals at times were beautiful but 80% of the time they were underwhelming or cartoonish. I laughed when that robot pulled out that big robot sized knife...yeah cool... I also didn't care what happened to any of the characters and kept waiting for it all to end. I don't see how 3D is the future, it makes my head hurt and cheapens the whole experience.
> 
> Hard to believe a film with no balls was created by the dude behind some of my favourite films like T2 and Aliens.



I went and saw it over christmas and I've never seen a wider range of reactions from a crowd since I saw In the Company of Men. Everyone seems to either love or hate it. At the screening I went to there was a guy telling me he was seeing it for the 6th time, there were people who also had tickets for the next show, a few groups walked out, there were laughs and sneers at every oneliner, cheering and snoring... very strange. Maybe that's what happens when a movie gets this much hype.


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## midphase (Dec 27, 2009)

"The word I heard most was "Flawless"."

That's hard to digest. I'm with chocO on this one. I thought the story was ridiculously shallow, predictable, and above all plagiarized from many other films. I didn't mind the music except that as I walked out I couldn't get "My Heart Will Go On" out of my head. The 3D was interesting, and this is undoubtedly the way things are heading for the majority of studio films, but I didn't feel anymore absorbed into the film because of it.

It's true that a movie with this much hype hardly ever lives up to it...but quite honestly I thought both Titanic and T2 (which had huge hype) lived up to it quite well. When I think of Avatar, the word "safe" comes to mind, I was at least hoping for a more edgy ending like Titanic, but didn't get that.

I think this is the film that George Lucas thought he was making when he made Episode 1 (and 2 and 3), but Cameron pulled off the execution much better. This is a natural evolution that we have seen in movies, a unification of the technology in Star Wars, King Kong, Final Fantasy and many others. Evolutionary but decisively not revolutionary.

I really didn't mind (nor care) about the Horner score, sounded like something you'd hear on a Disney Lion's King ride for the most part, but it matched what was going on...and during the battle scenes I couldn't even hear it past the sfx anyway. Kudos to Horner for having such a successful career and making a cowload of $$$ I'm sure...good for him!


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## Brian Ralston (Dec 28, 2009)

NYC Composer @ Sun Dec 27 said:


> Umm...Brian- I was pretty much responding to your earlier post in this thread. It certainly didn't look like Horner had a lot to do with 'hacking it up'- you said Cameron and the editor. Is the story different than that?



As a music editor, you don't really music edit a composers music without his input in some fashion...but also remember that Henrikson and Horner have worked together literally forever. On the stage, Henrikson was in the booth with Simon Rhodes and at times seemed to be running the show at one point dictating what "wild takes" he would need as a music editor to get in and out of new film edits. Simon Rhodes would do the same thing in regards to the mix. They were all working together rather efficiently and beautifully. No time was wasted at all. With a 107 piece orchestra on the stage and Fox executives in the room...there was no room for waste. On the podium, Horner would hear in the cans what was needed, look at his score and then tell the orchestra..."Play measures 31-37, then repeat to 31-34...hold last note of 34 for 12 counts with a crescendo to fff." After the take Horner would ask Henrikson in the booth, "Do you have what you need?" If he did, they would go on. It was like Horner did not even know what was needed at some points to cover the ever changing visual edits. He scored the scene as it was given to him months earlier...not what it was then on the stage. 

Henrikson also said that Cameron would take already recorded cues and re-edit or add material to scenes and music edit those cues to fit what he was doing. (Notice Cameron is an editor on the film as well). By shooting most of AVATAR in the "virtual world" on a motion capture stage (and all digital at that), they never really finished shooting. That continued well into post. Cameron would say "Hey, I need another shot of this over here." They would call an actor back for a half day and get it, then insert it into the scene even though the music was already recorded for that scene. So...a lot of the final score was a big music editing task apparently due to the picture never being locked until the final sound mix really. Henrikson knows Horner really well. But I am sure Horner gave the ok to everything before the final score went out, although I was not privy to info at that point. But I do know the music editing was extensive. More than what would be considered usual.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 28, 2009)

That's interesting inside info, Brian, but to me, it sounds like what you put in your first post about it- Horner did a bunch of music, and Cameron and the editor cut it to taste. If you think the composer really had final say on what was used where, well...I'd guess Cameron did, personally, but maybe you know better. Cheers.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 29, 2009)

Avatar should be rated 14 and under!

I saw it yesterday and walked out half-way through. It's set in 2154 and yet everyone dresses like us, speaks like us, same haircuts, they read a reference book on the Navi that looks like it was printed in 2002 (that was the straw that broke it for me), there are barely any Chinese, Indian or other non-whites sent to other planets. Someone should give Cameron this kind of kit for research:

- copies of Blade Runner, early Star Trek, and the new Battlestar Galactica.

- copies of Stephenson's The Diamond Age, Gibson's Neuromancer and Kurzweil's The Age of Spiritual Machines.

- link to ted.org, along with suggested viewing.

Oh, this thread is about the music in Avatar? Same old, same old. I found some of the soundtrack to Sherlock Holmes much, much more modern-sounding (thanks in part to Diego's amazing Experibass). If only Jonny Greenwood had been hired instead...


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## choc0thrax (Dec 29, 2009)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Dec 29 said:


> Avatar should be rated 14 and under!
> 
> I saw it yesterday and walked out half-way through. It's set in 2154 and yet everyone dresses like us, speaks like us, same haircuts, they read a reference book on the Navi that looks like it was printed in 2002 (that was the straw that broke it for me), there are barely any Chinese, Indian or other non-whites sent to other planets. Someone should give Cameron this kind of kit for research:
> 
> ...



Wow, so you only saw 3 hours of it? I laughed when Jake held up that text book. Did you get to the uncomfortable part where they sort of have sex with the animals?


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## bryla (Dec 29, 2009)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Dec 29 said:


> they read a reference book on the Navi that looks like it was printed in 2002 (that was the straw that broke it for me),


So you haven't read Fux Counterpoint?


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## theheresy (Dec 29, 2009)

choc0thrax @ Tue Dec 29 said:


> Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Dec 29 said:
> 
> 
> > Avatar should be rated 14 and under!
> ...



I must say first of all that I thought the movie was incredible and those little things didn't spoil it for me but I must also agree with you it's sort of ridiculous that the thing is set 150 years in the future yet they have our same catch words, looks, clothes and the most offensive thing is like you said they're all seemingly white americans why not have some russian/eastern-european, chinese, indian, african, as you said, etc, etc, in particular I say russian and chinese because they obviously have the most advanced space programs apart from the U.S. so one would think in the future they would also be up there working with whatever consortiums.
But anyways that's just personal opinion. 
I liked your book suggestions though, I'm a big fan of Kurzweil's age of spiritual machines and his whole singularity hypothesis.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 20, 2010)

We saw it last night - in 3d. The movie was amazingly well done, even though there wasn't all that much to the story.

But to be honest I found the score a little frustrating - and not because the music was bad (it wasn't) but because I feel the approach was too traditional.

To me it seems that they should have come up with something new to go along with the incredible fantasy world they created. I mean, they came up with a whole new spoken language, so why not a new musical one? Don Davis certainly did that in The Matrix series, for example.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 20, 2010)

And of course the classic example is Jerry Goldsmith's 'Planet of the Apes' score.


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## Frederick Russ (Jan 20, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Jan 20 said:


> But to be honest I found the score a little frustrating - and not because the music was bad (it wasn't) but because I feel the approach was too traditional.



James Horner has more writing chops than he used in the score. I think he just played it safe and gave the director exactly what he wanted. Its frustrating I agree - check out Horner's work on Jumanji for example - he definitely can write and do it well if allowed by those in charge.


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## theheresy (Jan 20, 2010)

Frederick Russ @ Wed Jan 20 said:


> Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Jan 20 said:
> 
> 
> > But to be honest I found the score a little frustrating - and not because the music was bad (it wasn't) but because I feel the approach was too traditional.
> ...




yup actually I'm pretty sure I read in an interview that Horner wanted to do far more exotic, challenging, and modern music for Avatar sort of like the end of 2001 or what have you but Cameron is the one that reigned him in and said that people weren't ready for it and that the mass populace is not 'ready' to hear avant garde or simply doesn't want to hear it so Horner was forced into doing a Titanic rehash etc. 

Remember a lot of the choices composers make in their careers are not their own and they have no say in the matter. I'm sure Horner would have done almost every score differently if he had full creative control but bottom line is that he doesn't and 90% of the time a director wants a certain sound that everyone is used to i.e. that which he's using as temp music etc.


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## snowleopard (Jan 29, 2010)

Yes, I heard the same thing about Horner wanting to be more adventurous. I should try to dig that up. Sucks because like I said some 20-30 posts ago when given the opening, Horner can make some very avant guard music. 

I totally hear what you're saying Nick about Goldsmith's score to Planet of the Apes. A more simple example would be Jerry's score to the first Star Trek film. Most of the score is traditional grand orchestra, but he used one single exotic instrument, the old Blaster Beam, with great aplomb to achieve something special in that score.


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