# Mac Studio (New Hardware Mac Computer)!!!!



## gsilbers

ooooooooooooooooooooohhhhhhh yeah

faster than new mac pro with 28 cores!

80% faster than the fastest mac pro intel

using m1 ultra (see other thread)

up 128gb of memory.

finally....

fotos soon but its like a fat mac mini. tiny

not gonna be cheap


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## KEM

IN


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## José Herring

Will this be the mac that makes me switch back? Color me interested.


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## KEM

José Herring said:


> Will this be the mac that makes me switch back? Color me interested.



YES!!


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## gsilbers

starts at $4000 for ultra :/


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## KEM

gsilbers said:


> starts at $4000 for ultra :/



Yeah but then again it starts with 64gb of ram and a 1tb hard drive, so not terrible for what you get, all you’d really need is more storage and you’re set


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## wayne_rowley

Just seen the price.

Ouch!


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## gsilbers

KEM said:


> Yeah but then again it starts with 64gb of ram and a 1tb hard drive, so not terrible for what you get, all you’d really need is more storage and you’re set


true. if its beats high end mac pro then makes sense as those are like $16,000 - $30,000!!!!!


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## Alex Fraser

gsilbers said:


> starts at $4000 :/


Is this finally the “VIC approved” mid range Mac desktop we’ve been waiting for? 😳

(or as near as we’ll get)


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## gsilbers

Alex Fraser said:


> Is this finally the “VIC approved” mid range Mac desktop we’ve been waiting for? 😳


 
lol

i think its more like high end in a small package. at $4k "starting price" that can beat $10k+ mac pros and (maybe pcs) then it might be the new mac pro we have all been waiting for. (minus the expansion pci)


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## KEM

gsilbers said:


> true. if its beats high end mac pro then makes sense as those are like $16,000 - $30,000!!!!!



You’d be paying at least $20k for an equivalent spec’d Mac Pro, this is an absolute steal if you ask me


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## gsilbers

KEM said:


> Yeah but then again it starts with 64gb of ram and a 1tb hard drive, so not terrible for what you get, all you’d really need is more storage and you’re set



im sure thunderbolt4 is good enough for us but the internal expansion seems limited. ram at least. not sure ssd. they metioned up to 8tb inside.


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## Alex Fraser

gsilbers said:


> lol
> 
> i think its more like high end in a small package. at $4k "starting price" that can beat $10k+ mac pros and (maybe pcs) then it might be the new mac pro we have all been waiting for. (minus the expansion pci)


I see there’s an M1 max based 2k option. That might be a sweeter spot.


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## gsilbers

I have the feeling that we wont be able to get the 128gb ram version unless its m1 ultra chip which is the most expensive. too bad though. the other m1 are pretty good imo.


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## redlester

It's actually the Mac Mini Pro isn't it? Having only recently got a second hand trash can Pro which serves my purposes for now it's too soon for me, but will be interesting to watch what people make of this.


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## gsilbers

Alex Fraser said:


> I see there’s an M1 max based 2k option. That might be a sweeter spot.


the absolute cheapest for 128gb seems to be $4800


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## KEM

gsilbers said:


> I have the feeling that we wont be able to get the 128gb ram version unless its m1 ultra chip which is the most expensive. too bad though. the other m1 are pretty good imo.



128gb of ram is overkill in my opinion, just use VEP and purge tracks and you can even get away with 32gb. Only reason I could ever see anyone needing 128gb is if they have like 2k tracks in their template and nothings purged, but that just doesn’t make any sense to me either


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## Vik

Alex Fraser said:


> Is this finally the “VIC approved” mid range Mac desktop we’ve been waiting for? 😳


Even the Studio Mac with the M1 Max processor would be enough for lots of us, if paying $400 extra to get 64gb RAM instead of 32.


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## gsilbers




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## NoamL

Well I'm right now looking for an all in one, VEP+Logic+ProTools machine, with 64GB of memory (although 96 or 128 might be nice for futureproofing...)

I was looking at the *16" Macbook Pro* with *M1 Max* (10 CPU cores, 24 GPU), *64GB* RAM and *2TB *SSD. That was going to total *$4,100.*

With this new Mac Studio, I can get the exact same hardware specs for *$3,000. *

Any reason I shouldn't nab that deal? It's basically $1,100 off and go buy a cheaper monitor + keyboard, right? Anything else I should know?

The next step up in price would be to get the M1 Ultra + 128GB RAM. That's truly a monster computer, more powerful than most _existing_ composer desktops I'd bet. It's also $5,000 though haha, up to $6k if you want more hard drive space too.


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## David Kudell

NoamL said:


> Well I'm right now looking for an all in one, VEP+Logic+ProTools machine, with 64GB of memory (although 96 or 128 might be nice for futureproofing...)
> 
> I was looking at the *16" Macbook Pro* with *M1 Max* (10 CPU cores, 24 GPU), *64GB* RAM and *2TB *SSD. That was going to total *$4,100.*
> 
> With this new Mac Studio, I can get the exact same hardware specs for *$3,000. *
> 
> Any reason I shouldn't nab that deal? It's basically $1,100 off and go buy a cheaper monitor + keyboard, right? Anything else I should know?


Get the 128GB RAM.


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## gsilbers




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## Alex Fraser

Vik said:


> Even the Studio Mac with the M1 Max processor would be enough for lots of us, if paying $400 extra to get 64gb RAM instead of 32.


Yep, exactly. A happy medium. I could very easily make that work.


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## StefVR

Disappointing that this machine has no Single Core performance improvement. Other than that the perfect machine for media compesition with super high bandwidth memory and lots of connectivity. 128gb and 8tb ssd internal should make losing templates and sample libraries a breeze.

Who needs more RAM can wait für the 4 chiplet 256gb Mac Pro which is now very clear what it will be.


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## Vik

NoamL said:


> Anything else I should know?


If you need to travel with your computer, maybe the MBP is a better solution?


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## KEM

I’m ordering one right away


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## Zedcars

Just ordered a Mac Studio M1 Ultra with 128GB unified memory. It’s the most I’ve ever spent on a computer, but if it means no more choking when playing back my orchestral libraries, and also greatly reduced fan noise then it’s a big plus. Hopefully this will last me a long time.


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## gsilbers

NoamL said:


> Well I'm right now looking for an all in one, VEP+Logic+ProTools machine, with 64GB of memory (although 96 or 128 might be nice for futureproofing...)
> 
> I was looking at the *16" Macbook Pro* with *M1 Max* (10 CPU cores, 24 GPU), *64GB* RAM and *2TB *SSD. That was going to total *$4,100.*
> 
> With this new Mac Studio, I can get the exact same hardware specs for *$3,000. *
> 
> Any reason I shouldn't nab that deal? It's basically $1,100 off and go buy a cheaper monitor + keyboard, right? Anything else I should know?
> 
> The next step up in price would be to get the M1 Ultra + 128GB RAM. That's truly a monster computer, more powerful than most _existing_ composer desktops I'd bet. It's also $5,000 though haha, up to $6k if you want more hard drive space too.



there was talk about new refresh MacBooks. maybe its just going to be added to the website and there was not mentioned in the video


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## NoamL

David Kudell said:


> Get the 128GB RAM.


Not sure if it makes sense to do everything in Mac though. I have a PC networked server that can run another 64gb worth of template. Between those two computers I'd have 128... I mean maybe Abbey Road Modular Orchestra will be terabytes of samples.... 



Vik said:


> If you need to travel with your computer, maybe the MBP is a better solution?


Nah, almost never need to.


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## shropshirelad

Straight $ to £ pricing is a bit disappointing, making this very expensive here in the UK. Regardless, I'm going to get the Mac Studio with Max/64gb/1TB but will be looking around for more affordable monitors - recommendations most welcome!


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## David Kudell

Apple has really achieved something monumental that I never thought I'd see. They've outdone Intel and AMD to design a chip that outperforms the best Xeon workstation processor and uses half the energy at the same time, and costs a fraction of the price too.

It's like that whole concept of "cheap, fast, and good - pick two," has become "heck, have all 3."


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## KyleRodrgz

Zedcars said:


> Just ordered a Mac Studio M1 Ultra with 128GB unified memory. It’s the most I’ve ever spent on a computer, but if it means no more choking when playing back my orchestral libraries, and also greatly reduced fan noise then it’s a big plus. Hopefully this will last me a long time.


Hell yes congrats man, it's a great feeling


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## gsilbers

David Kudell said:


> Apple has really achieved something monumental that I never thought I'd see. They've outdone Intel and AMD to design a chip that outperforms the best Xeon workstation processor and uses half the energy at the same time, and costs a fraction of the price too.
> 
> It's like that whole concept of "cheap, fast, and good - pick two," has become "heck, have all 3."



true. might be the pholosophy behind it. the SOC version makes less fuzz about customizations and never ending tweaking from the windows world. Which for some things are great, others are not. 
If things work for the work the person is doing then its great if not, then there is plenty of options.


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## David Kudell

NoamL said:


> Not sure if it makes sense to do everything in Mac though. I have a PC networked server that can run another 64gb worth of template. Between those two computers I'd have 128... I mean maybe Abbey Road Modular Orchestra will be terabytes of samples....
> 
> 
> Nah, almost never need to.


Cool - plus I didn't realize going up to 128 was so much more, I thought it was a $400 upgrade, but I see now you need to have the ultra, so that's a big upgrade.

If you're already using VEP then you're good. That's what I'm doing currently, and it works fine.


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## KEM

Zedcars said:


> Just ordered a Mac Studio M1 Ultra with 128GB unified memory. It’s the most I’ve ever spent on a computer, but if it means no more choking when playing back my orchestral libraries, and also greatly reduced fan noise then it’s a big plus. Hopefully this will last me a long time.



Awesome!! I’m getting it with 64gb of ram and 4tb of storage


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## redlester

shropshirelad said:


> Straight $ to £ pricing is a bit disappointing, making this very expensive here in the UK. Regardless, I'm going to get the Mac Studio with Max/64gb/1TB but will be looking around for more affordable monitors - recommendations most welcome!


You beat me to it, it's not just disappointing it's downright robbery! But we've suffered this and similar ever since I got into Hi-Fi in the 1970's.


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## NoamL

gsilbers said:


> im sure thunderbolt4 is good enough for us but the internal expansion seems limited. ram at least. not sure ssd. they metioned up to 8tb inside.


is RAM upgradable at all - even by Apple? I got the idea somehow that the RAM is like literally glued to or part of the M1 chip somehow. So the chip you select is the RAM you're stuck with.


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## gsilbers

the price depends if someone gets a second dedicated computer for samples and the price for that combined.
and if space is an issue. plus it can go with you anywhere!

I have the 2018 mac mini64gbram thats about $1500 used. plus an old i7 x99 intel w 128gb of ram thats like $1500 maybe. 
and its good enough. 

once the studio starts hitting the refurbished stores theyll be a good deal.


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## gsilbers

NoamL said:


> is RAM upgradable at all - even by Apple? I got the idea somehow that the RAM is like literally glued to or part of the M1 chip somehow. So the chip you select is the RAM you're stuck with.


yes, thats what i wrote. the ram not upgradable. the ssd maybe... not sure.


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## gsilbers

so its $400 a month for 12 months no interets. like buying a nice car lease


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## gsilbers

KEM said:


> Awesome!! I’m getting it with 64gb of ram and 4tb of storage



woudnt it be cheaper to get an external thunderbolt 4tb ssd drive? or ar the internal m.2 ssd?


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## David Kudell

The RAM isn't upgradable because it's not separate sticks of RAM, it's actually on the chip itself. It's so fast it's also used by the GPU.


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## emasters

I was expecting a higher price for what it delivers. Will be curious to see what some of the DAW benchmarks look like as these roll out.


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## KEM

gsilbers said:


> woudnt it be cheaper to get an external thunderbolt 4tb ssd drive? or ar the internal m.2 ssd?



Yes, but I HATE having to use external drives or multiple internals, it’s a convenience factor for me, I like having one drive built in with everything on it


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## Simon Ravn

Looks very interesting. The Ultra version with twice the CPU+GPU (literally) being twice the price of the Max is a bit steep. I would be fine CPU wise with the 10 core, but that maxes out at 64GB which is a no go.

But interesting, and good to see Apple taking care of pro users again.


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## José Herring

I've been building PC's for around $1500 but man I'd be willing to pay $5000 for an all in self contained little box like this. Even with 64 gigs it will be powerful. 128 gigs is all I have right now on one machine and that's plenty enough so far. Even one of these with my PC slave and using VEPro again would be killer.


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## gsilbers

KEM said:


> Yes, but I HATE having to use external drives or multiple internals, it’s a convenience factor for me, I like having one drive built in with everything on it



i totally understand. i have the same issue. i ended up buying a 8tb ssd external and have everything in there. samples, project files etc. and its small.


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## mscp

After years of complaints about the state of affairs at Apple, they have finally brought in something decent. As usual, it won't be cheap...but at least it's a decent piece of gear (theoretically). I'm excited.


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## gsilbers

Simon Ravn said:


> Looks very interesting. The Ultra version with twice the CPU+GPU (literally) being twice the price of the Max is a bit steep. I would be fine CPU wise with the 10 core, but that maxes out at 64GB which is a no go.
> 
> But interesting, and good to see Apple taking care of pro users again.


too bad apple didnt offer a 128gb ram version with m1 max but as you said, it prolly has to do with how each cheap is basically doubling whats inside, including ram.


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## Virtuoso

shropshirelad said:


> Straight $ to £ pricing is a bit disappointing, making this very expensive here in the UK.


Bear in mind UK prices include 20% VAT - US sales tax is not shown as it varies from state to state.

The rest you can put down to cost of business - Apple prices are usually fixed, so they have to factor in exchange rate projections, which is tough during a pandemic/war where anything can change any moment!


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## gsilbers

José Herring said:


> I've been building PC's for around $1500 but man I'd be willing to pay $5000 for an all in self contained little box like this. Even with 64 gigs it will be powerful. 128 gigs is all I have right now on one machine and that's plenty enough so far. Even one of these with my PC slave and using VEPro again would be killer.



its odd that small desktop like these havent hit big in the pc world. i tried looking at 128gb small footprint options and its hard to find decent alternatives. either not powerfull, or too hot/noisy, etc. 

i wonder if IT folks would use these for servers. I was looking at normal servers and the price is crazy high and they are huge racks, even for the 1u racks. plus noisy


the video mentioned that at most workloads the mac studio wont be heard.


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## Nimrod7

dear lord,

The plan is to sell the MacBook 16, 10Gb Thunderbolt Adapter, Element Hub that I was using as a desktop replacement. I am still trying to digest what I did, but thinking long term, longevity around 5 years / 60 = 131/month, which is not bad at all. That's how much I am paying for a software license monthly (Cinema 4D).






If anyone would like to keep mobile, and interested for a 16 Inch MacBook Pro MAX, 64Gb Ram, 2TB SSD with 3 years apple care and lives within EU, let me know.


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## dcoscina

KEM said:


> 128gb of ram is overkill in my opinion, just use VEP and purge tracks and you can even get away with 32gb. Only reason I could ever see anyone needing 128gb is if they have like 2k tracks in their template and nothings purged, but that just doesn’t make any sense to me either


Composers who use big templates (loading up all sounds every time) benefit from this I guess. I have all of my channels turned off when I load a template then activate whichever tracks/instruments I need at the time. Seems to work for me but I don't have templates over 100 tracks.. I'm more of a KS guy, not a load 1 articulation per channel dude.


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## NoamL

gsilbers said:


> the absolute cheapest for 128gb seems to be $4800





David Kudell said:


> Cool - plus I didn't realize going up to 128 was so much more, I thought it was a $400 upgrade, but I see now you need to have the ultra, so that's a big upgrade.
> 
> If you're already using VEP then you're good. That's what I'm doing currently, and it works fine.


Yeah there's a big jump in price from 64gb to 128gb because of several things. 

It costs $800 for 64gb more memory (I know it's not a direct comparison, but that's about 2.5x the unit price of aftermarket DDR4 RAM).

Then you also have to pay for an "extra" M1 Max chip to make the Ultra config, add another $1,200.

And then realistically, you wouldn't want to run this as a 2TB machine, so that's another $600 to upgrade to 4TB or $1,800 to 8TB.

A true superDAW once all those specs are included. The 8TB model costs $7k flat.

But compare to the Mac Pro. With 24 CPU cores and 196gb RAM - even with minimal GPU - the 8TB storage model costs EIGHTEEN THOUSAND dollars.

It seems like *this* Mac Studio computer is the "Mac Pro" for composers. 

Only thing I'm worried about is the people who are trying to run two M1 Max chips, 128gb of memory and 8TB of storage in an 8x8 square. Is it safe to run a nuclear reactor in your house???


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## dcoscina

KEM said:


> Yes, but I HATE having to use external drives or multiple internals, it’s a convenience factor for me, I like having one drive built in with everything on it


you don't encounter any issues with this? I have 15 SSDs with various libraries spread all over the place.


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## KEM

gsilbers said:


> i totally understand. i have the same issue. i ended up buying a 8tb ssd external and have everything in there. samples, project files etc. and its small.



I do have an external drive right now but it’s only used to store finished project files, and I have a separate PC that I have a VEP template on so all of my sample libraries are already on that, so I like having a lot of internal storage on my main computer for synths, project files that are being worked on, etc.

Having multiple internals and externals just gets confusing to me


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## KEM

dcoscina said:


> you don't encounter any issues with this? I have 15 SSDs with various libraries spread all over the place.



Nope, see my post above I explain my reasoning for it

I should also say that I don’t have _that _many sample libraries, only about 2tbs worth


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## Zhao Shen

How are Mac external storage options? CPU performance has always been the bottleneck in my rig, so announcements like these make me consider switching over to MacOS from Windows. But it seems like storage is a big issue in the MacOS ecosystem - it's extremely expensive compared to PC options, and replicating my 10TB of sample storage drives seems like it'd be a pain.


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## Vik

gsilbers said:


> yes, thats what i wrote. the ram not upgradable.


Not for now, but since two M1Max with 64 gb memory now has been combined into one M1 Ultra with 128 gb, we may, at some point, also see that two Macs with an equal amount of RAM will be able to act as one, twice as powerful computer with twice as much RAM. My guess is that we'll see Apple Silicon computers with hybrid RAM, allowing the RAM on the AS processor to be combined with standalone m.2 RAM.


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## David Kudell

Zhao Shen said:


> How are Mac external storage options? CPU performance has always been the bottleneck in my rig, so announcements like these make me consider switching over to MacOS from Windows. But it seems like storage is a big issue in the MacOS ecosystem - it's extremely expensive compared to PC options, and replicating my 10TB of sample storage drives seems like it'd be a pain.


I have a Glyph Atom Pro 8TB SSD that uses Thunderbolt 3 and gets 2600MB/sec read/write. It's very expensive but compared to the sample libraries it holds it was quite cheap.


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## NoamL

José Herring said:


> I've been building PC's for around $1500 but man I'd be willing to pay $5000 for an all in self contained little box like this. Even with 64 gigs it will be powerful. 128 gigs is all I have right now on one machine and that's plenty enough so far. Even one of these with my PC slave and using VEPro again would be killer.


I think this is the killer use case for anyone in Logic.

64GB blazing fast Mac Studio to handle 70-90% of the work - potentially sparing you from even needing a network computer on all but the densest projects. And then some kind of off the shelf or custom PC for "even more VEPro." PC RAM, an ethernet cable and a second Vienna license are a helluva lot cheaper than M1 Ultra.

I'm gettin' one at the 64gb/2tb level. Maybe 4tb....


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## RRBE Sound

In the basket......... 




But waiting for some reviews and first impressions..


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## KEM

José Herring said:


> I've been building PC's for around $1500 but man I'd be willing to pay $5000 for an all in self contained little box like this. Even with 64 gigs it will be powerful. 128 gigs is all I have right now on one machine and that's plenty enough so far. Even one of these with my PC slave and using VEPro again would be killer.



DO. IT.


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## MeanGreen7

Has anybody successfully removed their networked computer after getting an M1 Max equipped computer? I switched over to PC towards the end of last year, but was quite unhappy so I'm back on Mac and using the PC with VE Pro. It's awesome, but of course 1 computer is better than two if performance is the same. I'm not a composer, but I use a lot of Kontakt, Play, Vienna, and am thinking maybe I could sell pc to fund this new Mac. I would hate to sell PC too soon though.


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## dts_marin

Very expensive considering the glued RAM and lack of PCIE slots. The fundamental flaw of newer Apple machines: excessive reliance on Thunderbolt. Even if the CPU and GPU are very well cooled those tiny little controllers get extremely hot. You can't defy physics.

At least on the Mac Pro you have options to avoid Thunderbolt.

The absolute minimum should be two ports for displays and 2 PCIE slots. That would cover an additional network card or storage, a dual screen setup, and maybe a second boot drive (backups you know are important for professionals) or a PCI card used for Avid interfaces etc.

Then maybe consider using TB if you absolutely need extra storage or displays. 

Thunderbolt enclosures aren't a solution. Yes, you can put the expansion stuff there but the heat on the controllers is still a problem.

Personally, I won't get another computer that forces me to use Thunderbolt for the necessary things ever again.


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## shropshirelad

Just a thought - does this signal the death of the 27" iMac or might we still expect that at some point?


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## KEM

shropshirelad said:


> Just a thought - does this signal the death of the 27" iMac or might we still expect that at some point?



Next year


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## shropshirelad

KEM said:


> Next year


Ah, thanks. Not sure I can wait that long!


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## KEM

shropshirelad said:


> Ah, thanks. Not sure I can wait that long!



You could just get the Studio Display alongside the Mac Studio and get the same thing


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## Zhao Shen

David Kudell said:


> I have a Glyph Atom Pro 8TB SSD that uses Thunderbolt 3 and gets 2600MB/sec read/write. It's very expensive but compared to the sample libraries it holds it was quite cheap.


You're no help at all, I was really waiting for someone to convince me that I should stick with Windows 🥲


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## NoamL

The studio display seems expensive - maybe not Apple Wheels expensive but it seems aimed at the heretofore Apple definition of "pro" (people in video/photography/design). I dunno, I don't mind looking at cheaper screens.


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## KEM

I just hate how these Apple displays don’t have hdmi, I want to use my Xbox Series X one one!!


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## davidson

I spent too long deciding on specs so delivery slipped to April. Still, can't wait for it to get it here so I can boot my 16gb mini into the sea.


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## Mike Stone

The Studio is rather overpriced IMO. The Apple tax is getting out of hand, especially considering Apple have control of the whole hardware production now, including the CPU and GPU.

The M1 Ultra has twice the memory bandwidth of M1 Max. It would be interesting to know if this would make it possible to use a lower DAW latency setting for sample libraries and synth plugins (64-128 vs 128-256).


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## KEM

My order has been placed!!! And my friend works at Apple so he was able to get me a discount too!!


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## shropshirelad

NoamL said:


> The studio display seems expensive - maybe not Apple Wheels expensive but it seems aimed at the heretofore Apple definition of "pro" (people in video/photography/design). I dunno, I don't mind looking at cheaper screens.


I agree, hence my question about the new 27" iMac which has always been in my price/performance sweet spot. The Mac Studio & Display is harder to justify. TBH, if the Mac Mini came with 64gb it would probably be fine for my needs.


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## gsilbers

Nimrod7 said:


> dear lord,
> 
> The plan is to sell the MacBook 16, 10Gb Thunderbolt Adapter, Element Hub that I was using as a desktop replacement. I am still trying to digest what I did, but thinking long term, longevity around 5 years / 60 = 131/month, which is not bad at all. That's how much I am paying for a software license monthly (Cinema 4D).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If anyone would like to keep mobile, and interested for a 16 Inch MacBook Pro MAX, 64Gb Ram, 2TB SSD with 3 years apple care and lives within EU, let me know.





NoamL said:


> Yeah there's a big jump in price from 64gb to 128gb because of several things.
> 
> It costs $800 for 64gb more memory (I know it's not a direct comparison, but that's about 2.5x the unit price of aftermarket DDR4 RAM).
> 
> Then you also have to pay for an "extra" M1 Max chip to make the Ultra config, add another $1,200.
> 
> And then realistically, you wouldn't want to run this as a 2TB machine, so that's another $600 to upgrade to 4TB or $1,800 to 8TB.
> 
> A true superDAW once all those specs are included. The 8TB model costs $7k flat.
> 
> But compare to the Mac Pro. With 24 CPU cores and 196gb RAM - even with minimal GPU - the 8TB storage model costs EIGHTEEN THOUSAND dollars.
> 
> It seems like *this* Mac Studio computer is the "Mac Pro" for composers.
> 
> Only thing I'm worried about is the people who are trying to run two M1 Max chips, 128gb of memory and 8TB of storage in an 8x8 square. Is it safe to run a nuclear reactor in your house???


lol sadly composers who need 128gb of ram and not that much cpu is not a big part of apples market 

id be more than happy with m1 max. but from the video it seems its like staccable chips and the russian mad sicentist looking fellow mentioned that its the way to expand in power and the connection between cores and modules is super fast. they prolly think that if you need 128gb of ram you are runnng some heck of cpu intenesive software or something. 

il wait to see about that SSD and see how expandable it is. it would be amazing if it can be switched. so buying 1tb version and then adding/replacing for a 8tb would be a huuuge discount.


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## gsilbers

shropshirelad said:


> I agree, hence my question about the new 27" iMac which has always been in my price/performance sweet spot. The Mac Studio & Display is harder to justify. TBH, if the Mac Mini came with 64gb it would probably be fine for my needs.



apple has been trying to get more into the world of tv production and post so their "pro displays" might be too much for us and more for color/video editors. 
i work with ultra wide and would hate having to go back to regular. so i guess it depends on your needs. 

i have the intel mac mini w 64 of ram. its still very fast imo.


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## mscp

gsilbers said:


> its odd that small desktop like these havent hit big in the pc world. i tried looking at 128gb small footprint options and its hard to find decent alternatives. either not powerfull, or too hot/noisy, etc.
> 
> i wonder if IT folks would use these for servers. I was looking at normal servers and the price is crazy high and they are huge racks, even for the 1u racks. plus noisy
> 
> 
> the video mentioned that at most workloads the mac studio wont be heard.


I remember there used to be a company called Shuttle a while back that was rock solid. I wonder why they haven't kept up with it. :(


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## gsilbers

Mike Stone said:


> The Studio is rather overpriced IMO. The Apple tax is getting out of hand, especially considering Apple have control of the whole hardware production now, including the CPU and GPU.
> 
> The M1 Ultra has twice the memory bandwidth of M1 Max. It would be interesting to know if this would make it possible to use a lower DAW latency setting for sample libraries and synth plugins (64-128 vs 128-256).


i guess its to the eye of the beholder. 

if its 80% faster than the mac pro already at like $16k+, and maybe faster than most windows pc equal pricepiint than the stuiod in benchmarks in a tiny package, then might be ok-ish..

but since you metioned the hardware they do, then yes. the first m1 prodcuts seems very low price in comparison. they only have to pay TSCM and not intel. 
att he same time, all that R&D , plus software os might be expensive. 

we'll see later on bencharks. 

Also every new prodcut does have a steep entry point. but maybe in 1-3 years when a new one comes out for the same price and these are in the used market at 30-40% less and still hella fast, might be a better deal for some. 
Might be for me...


----------



## gsilbers

mscp said:


> I remember there used to be a company called Shuttle a while back that was rock solid. I wonder why they haven't kept up with it. :(


might have to do with the overall intel issue of very hot CPUs. Apple could turn around to do their own chip. smaller copmanies might not have many options. Now its that AMD And Intel started focusing on (good) the SOC so maybe theyll be other offerings soon.


----------



## Michael Antrum

If the Mac Studio is as powerful as this, then what the hell have they got up their sleeves for the New Mac Pro........

Think this is the machine for me to replace my 5,1. But I'll be waiting a bit yet for people to get their hands on them. Besides, there's quite a bit of software that I need to catch up with Apple Silicon first.

I'm almost tempted to grab a flight to the US to buy one....


----------



## aeliron

gsilbers said:


> so its $400 a month for 12 months no interets. like buying a nice car lease


Ok, when you put it that way, it's super cheap!

I'll take two!


----------



## gsilbers

Michael Antrum said:


> If the Mac Studio is as powerful as this, then what the hell have they got up their sleeves for the New Mac Pro........
> 
> Think this is the machine for me to replace my 5,1. But I'll be waiting a bit yet for people to get their hands on them. Besides, there's quite a bit of software that I need to catch up with Apple Silicon first.
> 
> I'm almost tempted to grab a flight to the US to buy one....




Since the video mentioned several times that this is better than the mac pro intel... my guess its that apple will simple drop the mac pro in the long run. 
there is already a statement saying apple will release another mac pro intel soon. maybe the end of this year. 

philosophically speaking, having onboard PCI slots is the ony thing that would be different from the mac pro and studio. and if external pci thunderbolt products exists then there might less and less reason to have a big mac computer. 
and if the m1 ultra has so many gpu onboard the chip that video guys dont need extra graphic cards then slowly but surley only a handfull of poeple will need that much gpu intensive tasks. 

the downside of course is the lack of options. no 128gb ram for m1 max is one example.


----------



## gsilbers

aeliron said:


> Ok, when you put it that way, it's super cheap!
> 
> I'll take two!



ok ok.. 

how about 

a new string library every month OR a new mac studio?


----------



## Mike Stone

gsilbers said:


> i guess its to the eye of the beholder.
> 
> if its 80% faster than the mac pro already at like $16k+, and maybe faster than most windows pc equal pricepiint than the stuiod in benchmarks in a tiny package, then might be ok-ish..
> 
> but since you metioned the hardware they do, then yes. the first m1 prodcuts seems very low price in comparison. they only have to pay TSCM and not intel.
> att he same time, all that R&D , plus software os might be expensive.
> 
> we'll see later on bencharks.
> 
> Also every new prodcut does have a steep entry point. but maybe in 1-3 years when a new one comes out for the same price and these are in the used market at 30-40% less and still hella fast, might be a better deal for some.
> Might be for me...


The problem now is that we are expected to pay more and more, for each new generation of hardware. The next generation of more powerful hardware used to have the same price as, or being cheaper than the previous generation (a comparison to Mac Pro isn't relevant here, since it's an entirely different system using 3rd party hardware). I don't like the direction this is going. Don't get me wrong, this is a very powerful machine, and I like the design.


----------



## aeliron

Michael Antrum said:


> If the Mac Studio is as powerful as this, then what the hell have they got up their sleeves for the New Mac Pro........


The new Mac Pro is codenamed Skynet. I can't wait!

Edit: sorry, it’s _*iSkynet*_


----------



## Michael Antrum

Mike Stone said:


> The problem is that now we are expected to pay more and more for each generation of new and more powerful hardware. New hardware and more powerful hardware used to be the same price, or cheaper. I don't like the direction this is going. Don't get me wrong, this is a very powerful machine, and I really like the design.


I'm not sure that is true. This new machine is outperforming Mac Pros that cost significantly more......It is way cheaper than what went before.....


----------



## Michael Antrum

aeliron said:


> The new Mac Pro is codenamed Skynet. I can't wait!


After what has been happening in the world for the last couple of years, I'd be much happier if they went for a different name.....


----------



## shropshirelad

gsilbers said:


> apple has been trying to get more into the world of tv production and post so their "pro displays" might be too much for us and more for color/video editors.
> i work with ultra wide and would hate having to go back to regular. so i guess it depends on your needs.
> 
> i have the intel mac mini w 64 of ram. its still very fast imo.


I just priced it up and the Studio was only slightly more expensive than the Mini, so I've taken the plunge. Now to find a monitor.


----------



## aeliron

Michael Antrum said:


> After what has been happening in the world for the last couple of years, I'd be much happier if they went for a different name.....


Perhaps ... it's already online ...


----------



## Zhao Shen

Yeah, this announcement event was bonkers. Now I'm firmly interested in taking the leap to MacOS with a max-specced Studio, but I'll wait to hear your guys' experiences in actual day to day use. _Especially _regarding heat/fans/sustained load. M1 is crazy efficient, but it's unheard of for a device as small as the Studio be so high performance.


----------



## rnb_2

Interesting tidbit from the specs: the M1 Max version is 5.9lbs, the M1 Ultra is 7.9lbs. I'm very interested to see what combination of components inside the same case could make it weigh ⅓ more.


----------



## Tom Xander Sage

my mind is melting lol...


----------



## R. Naroth

Finally, I can say goodbye to my good old Mac Pro 5,1.


----------



## Pier

gsilbers said:


> starts at $4000 for ultra :/


Honestly I think it's a pretty good price for what you get.

To put things in perspective consider that an RTX 3090 which is similar in perf to the M1 Ultra costs over $2000.

Edit:

A Threadripper 3990X CPU which is comparable to the M1 Ultra costs almost $9000.

Apple has really killed the workstation market for Windows/PC and they haven't even released the M1 Mac Pro yet 😂


----------



## NoamL

Pulled the trigger on a 64gb/4TB model. Hurray!

Are you supposed to get an email beyond "We're processing your order"? This is the first time I paid for any Apple product with the monthly Apple Card plan. EDIT: never mind I see the Apple Card is a separate app you have to link to your bank card...


----------



## BassClef

shropshirelad said:


> I just priced it up and the Studio was only slightly more expensive than the Mini, so I've taken the plunge. Now to find a monitor.


I leaning toward the Studio Monitor, but let us know what you find/like and price.


----------



## MusiquedeReve

DAMN I have a 2019 Mac Pro and now I am Gas'ng for this


----------



## NoamL

gsilbers said:


> apple has been trying to get more into the world of tv production and post so their "pro displays" might be too much for us and more for color/video editors.


video/photo/design people want color accuracy, we just want screen real estate. It's 1 more example of how our needs are kind of off to the side of the main market.


gsilbers said:


> id be more than happy with m1 max. but from the video it seems its like staccable chips and the russian mad sicentist looking fellow mentioned that its the way to expand in power and the connection between cores and modules is super fast. they prolly think that if you need 128gb of ram you are runnng some heck of cpu intenesive software or something.


imagine explaining our use case to a hardware designer.

"No, you see, I want to be able to play back sixty-four CDroms at the same time - and have a zero latency skip-to-anywhere function for each CD independently..."


----------



## Nimrod7

MorphineNoir said:


> DAMN I have a 2019 Mac Pro and now I am Gas'ng for this


I think, you can get around 2-3 more years with the pro without even feeling to upgrade. Hardware might be there but the audio software industry is way behind, it needs at least a couple more years to fully transition.

I brought a studio for my other post production workstation, but my pro will remain the main machine for composing. When the time comes in a few years, it will retire to a glorified Vienna Ensemble Server.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

dts_marin said:


> Very expensive considering the glued RAM and lack of PCIE slots. The fundamental flaw of newer Apple machines: excessive reliance on Thunderbolt. Even if the CPU and GPU are very well cooled those tiny little controllers get extremely hot. You can't defy physics.
> 
> At least on the Mac Pro you have options to avoid Thunderbolt.
> 
> The absolute minimum should be two ports for displays and 2 PCIE slots. That would cover an additional network card or storage, a dual screen setup, and maybe a second boot drive (backups you know are important for professionals) or a PCI card used for Avid interfaces etc.
> 
> Then maybe consider using TB if you absolutely need extra storage or displays.
> 
> Thunderbolt enclosures aren't a solution. Yes, you can put the expansion stuff there but the heat on the controllers is still a problem.
> 
> Personally, I won't get another computer that forces me to use Thunderbolt for the necessary things ever again.


I use Thunderbolt on my 2020 iMac for external SSD's, second display, and my Apogee interface. Zero heat or speed issues.


----------



## mat1

I'm glad there is finally a new 5k monitor. I've been reluctant to move on from my old iMac as the screen is just so nice. Was expecting it to be more like $1000 though :O


----------



## NoamL

Zhao Shen said:


> Yeah, this announcement event was bonkers. Now I'm firmly interested in taking the leap to MacOS with a max-specced Studio, but I'll wait to hear your guys' experiences in actual day to day use. _Especially _regarding heat/fans/sustained load. M1 is crazy efficient, but it's unheard of for a device as small as the Studio be so high performance.


The M1 Max is known to have really good performance/thermals in the laptop form factor. So probably the same deal in the Chonky Mac Mini form factor? The M1 Ultra is a novelty.


----------



## babylonwaves

Mike Stone said:


> The M1 Ultra has twice the memory bandwidth of M1 Max. It would be interesting to know if this would make it possible to use a lower DAW latency setting for sample libraries and synth plugins (64-128 vs 128-256).


the random access memory bandwidth is not the issue. it's the single-core performance.


----------



## Mike Stone

babylonwaves said:


> the random access memory bandwidth is not the issue. it's the single-core performance.


Yeah, that makes sense. What could a doubled memory bandwidth improve? Faster loading times for large samples libraries, and better responsiveness with large templates? I'm keeping my 2020 i7 Mac Mini for now anyways...


----------



## davidson

NoamL said:


> Pulled the trigger on a 64gb/4TB model. Hurray!
> 
> Are you supposed to get an email beyond "We're processing your order"? This is the first time I paid for any Apple product with the monthly Apple Card plan. EDIT: never mind I see the Apple Card is a separate app you have to link to your bank card...


Nice! No, that's all you get until you get a dispatch email.


----------



## Virtuoso

Nimrod7 said:


> Hardware might be there but the audio software industry is way behind, it needs at least a couple more years to fully transition.


Totally - I'm sure the Apple performance comparisons are from highly optimized multicore/threaded apps that can really take advantage of the CPU cores. Apps that are poorly coded and only use a single core are still around. Then there's M1 native compatibility and VST3 to factor in - several major developers are still way behind on this (Universal Audio, Soundtoys, Ujam, Relab, Orchestral Tools etc).

It was only fairly recently that After Effects got updated with multicore processing. It really sucked when I sank about $26k into a 2019 Mac Pro setup and then sat back and waited as After Effects plodded along barely using 80% of a single core.


----------



## Vik

Nimrod7 said:


> If anyone would like to keep mobile, and interested for a 16 Inch MacBook Pro MAX, 64Gb Ram, 2TB SSD with 3 years apple care and lives within EU, let me know.


Which language is it on the keyboard?


----------



## dts_marin

Jeremy Spencer said:


> I use Thunderbolt on my 2020 iMac for external SSD's, second display, and my Apogee interface. Zero heat or speed issues.


I use a 2016 MBP and the network driver consumes almost all of my CPU when I use VEPro. Literally unusable just because of the stupid USB-C dongle. I'm on Big Sur so I can't use the official Realtek driver.



YMMV but for me this generation of Macs has been miserable. Apple also thankfully figured out how stupid it was to have power via the same controller and now it's separate as is the HDMI port on the new 14'' & 16".


----------



## Vik

gsilbers said:


> the downside of course is the lack of options. no 128gb ram for m1 max is one example.


Maybe that will be doable in M2 Max, but there will still be something the M2 Max can't do – otherwise people wouldn't buy M3 Max.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

dts_marin said:


> I use a 2016 MBP and the network driver consumes almost all of my CPU when I use VEPro. Literally unusable just because of the stupid USB-C dongle. I'm on Big Sur so I can't use the official Realtek driver.
> 
> 
> 
> YMMV but for me this generation of Macs has been miserable. Apple also thankfully figured out how stupid it was to have power via the same controller and now it's separate as is the HDMI port on the new 14'' & 16".



Jeez, glad I didn't go with the MacBook. Hopefully it gets sorted out.


----------



## Nimrod7

Vik said:


> Which language is it on the keyboard?


It's a UK keyboard.


----------



## Nimrod7

Virtuoso said:


> It was only fairly recently that After Effects got updated with multicore processing. It really sucked when I sank about $26k into a 2019 Mac Pro setup and then sat back and waited as After Effects plodded along barely using 80% of a single core.


Adobe in general is such a mess when it comes to performance. Premiere is also way behind the competitors, After Effects however is harder to replace. I personally force myself into Fusion or Motion for most of the work, but Motion is also not well coded, it suffers a lot from performance issues.


----------



## dts_marin

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Jeez, glad I didn't go with the MacBook. Hopefully it gets sorted out.


To be fair I think Thunderbolt docks may not have such issues and that is only exclusive to cheap USBC hubs but believe me at least in my country back when I got the machine I couldn't find TB3 docks. 

Still wouldn't have the issue if the machine had a network port included.
You get my point.

I didn't use the Mac as a DAW until recently when I had to switch to DP for work related reasons because DP is atrociously bad on Windows. And now that I use it I'm having this issue. Otherwise the OS has been amazing.

If I can afford a Mac Studio I'll get one but it still is a massive bummer that I need to use thunderbolt because those docks and enclosures cost a lot in other countries with tiny Mac markets. On top of the 'Apple tax'.


----------



## mscp

dts_marin said:


> I use a 2016 MBP and the network driver consumes almost all of my CPU when I use VEPro. Literally unusable just because of the stupid USB-C dongle. I'm on Big Sur so I can't use the official Realtek driver.
> 
> 
> 
> YMMV but for me this generation of Macs has been miserable. Apple also thankfully figured out how stupid it was to have power via the same controller and now it's separate as is the HDMI port on the new 14'' & 16".



2016-2017 MBP lines were/are horrible. They were probably the worst thing Apple has ever put on the market. Unusable pieces of gear, ridden with problems, that sound like helicopters taking off for no reason.


----------



## machinesworking

Pier said:


> Honestly I think it's a pretty good price for what you get.
> 
> To put things in perspective consider that an RTX 3090 which is similar in perf to the M1 Ultra costs over $2000.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> A Threadripper 3990X CPU which is comparable to the M1 Ultra costs almost $9000.
> 
> Apple has really killed the workstation market for Windows/PC and they haven't even released the M1 Mac Pro yet 😂


 Not sure about your Threadripper statement. I mean it's possible, but a quick google has the thread ripper at 64 cores. I don't think even the AS 20 core machine is going to match 64 cores? 
Now in terms of music IMO it would be a mistake to spend 9K+ on a machine that loud and where a single core might tap out quicker etc. 

The Risen 3960X with 24 cores starting at $1720 is a good comparison though, and considering all the other expensive components you would need to match the Mac Studio, it's all moot.


----------



## aeliron

davidson said:


> Nice! No, that's all you get until you get a dispatch email.


And the letter from the mortgage company


----------



## robgb

I'll probably go with the M1 Max version and 64gb RAM. $2,600.


----------



## Pier

machinesworking said:


> Not sure about your Threadripper statement. I mean it's possible, but a quick google has the thread ripper at 64 cores. I don't think even the AS 20 core machine is going to match 64 cores?
> Now in terms of music IMO it would be a mistake to spend 9K+ on a machine that loud and where a single core might tap out quicker etc.
> 
> The Risen 3960X with 24 cores starting at $1720 is a good comparison though, and considering all the other expensive components you would need to match the Mac Studio, it's all moot.


It will depend on the workload, software, etc, and of course we will need to see real world benchmarks but...

The Threadripper 3990X has a Geekbench multicore score of about *25,000*

The M1 Max has a multicore score of about *12,000*

I think it's fair to assume the M1 Ultra will have about double the multicore performance of the M1 Max (basically being 2 M1 Max chips glued together).


----------



## mat1

Pier said:


> I think it's fair to assume the M1 Ultra will have about double the multicore performance of the M1 Max (basically being 2 M1 Max chips glued together).



24055






Mac13,2 - Geekbench Browser


Benchmark results for a Mac13,2 with an Apple M1 Ultra processor.



browser.geekbench.com


----------



## Pier

mat1 said:


> 24055
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac13,2 - Geekbench Browser
> 
> 
> Benchmark results for a Mac13,2 with an Apple M1 Ultra processor.
> 
> 
> 
> browser.geekbench.com


There you have it.

It has to be said Geekbench does some weird things to simulate real world usage on multicore benchmarks. Another point to mention is that AMD will be releasing new chips soon.

Still, it's super impressive that a $4000 machine can compete with a RTX 3090 + Threadripper 3990X.

And the M1 Mac Pro will probably be double the performance of the M1 Ultra.


----------



## davidson

Pier said:


> There you have it.
> 
> It has to be said Geekbench does some weird things to simulate real world usage on multicore benchmarks. Another point to mention is that AMD will be releasing new chips soon.
> 
> Still, it's super impressive that a $4000 machine can compete with a RTX 3090 + Threadripper 3990X.
> 
> And the M1 Mac Pro will probably be double the performance of the M1 Ultra.


And you can guarantee it'll be well over double the price!


----------



## VinRice

redlester said:


> You beat me to it, it's not just disappointing it's downright robbery! But we've suffered this and similar ever since I got into Hi-Fi in the 1970's.


£/$ exchange rate is tanking due to you-know-what. ($ is considered safe-haven in times of stress)


----------



## VinRice

gsilbers said:


> too bad apple didnt offer a 128gb ram version with m1 max but as you said, it prolly has to do with how each cheap is basically doubling whats inside, including ram.


The integrated chip architecture means that the M1 Max can only support 64. The M1 Ultra is literally two M1 Maxes, therefore 128GB.


----------



## will_m

Pier said:


> A Threadripper 3990X CPU which is comparable to the M1 Ultra costs almost $9000.
> 
> Apple has really killed the workstation market for Windows/PC and they haven't even released the M1 Mac Pro yet 😂


This is just plain wrong, even the pro version of the 3990X isn't $9,000. It's also a 64 core chip, compared to the 16 cores + 4 efficiency cores of the M1 Ultra. The closest AMD chip would be more the 16 core 5990X (£550) or the 24 core 3960X (£1,300).


----------



## Pier

will_m said:


> This is just plain wrong, even the pro version of the 3990X isn't $9,000. It's also a 64 core chip, compared to the 16 cores + 4 efficiency cores of the M1 Ultra. The closest AMD chip would be more the 16 core 5990X (£550) or the 24 core 3960X (£1,300).








New Egg

Regarding the performance, check the previous posts with Geekbench results.

Edit:

Heck, even if the 3990X cost like $4000 it's still just the CPU.

The Mac Studio with the M1 Ultra is the whole thing with a GPU that matches an RTX 3090.


----------



## aeliron

will_m said:


> This is just plain wrong, even the pro version of the 3990X isn't $9,000. It's also a 64 core chip, compared to the 16 cores + 4 efficiency cores of the M1 Ultra. The closest AMD chip would be more the 16 core 5990X (£550) or the 24 core 3960X (£1,300).


Plus the fans are WAY more impressive


----------



## colony nofi

The performance looks good. 
Good enough for me to order m1ultra/ 128 / 2tb. 
6-7week lead time to change my mind. 
To replace a 9 year old trash can for serious work in the field and the studio. It’ll go nicely with 5k2k dell monitor in studio, and I’m lucky to still have a working 24” 4K for the field. 
Thunderbolt 3 8tb nvme sample storage is a win - and saved a bit. I’ll keep current projects on internal and rest on the studios NAS (which is accessible via a cloud intermediary)
Went for 48core gpu. Even with our esoteric workloads I cannot imagine needing more. 
Also ordering a new pc for some unreal audio dev - will see where that lands - will also need to be portable. 
I almost want to sell my tricked out MacBook Pro now. I just don’t think it’s justified - I don’t need the super quick portability. I’m used to the “setup”. But if i don’t need it, it will find a great home within our studios for others to use I’m sure. 

Stand by till 7weeks for serious benchmarks. We have our own kontakt instruments + nuendo + spat workflows that I’ll at least be able to compare to the current m1 and intel minis, a few other mac pros, imacs and trash cans.


----------



## will_m

Pier said:


> New Egg
> 
> Regarding the performance, check the previous posts with Geekbench results.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> Heck, even if the 3990X cost like $4000 it's still just the CPU.
> 
> The Mac Studio with the M1 Ultra is the whole thing with a GPU that matches an RTX 3090.



I mean you can pay 9k if you want to but its not really necessary. Also using synthetic benchmarks like GB to measure and compare CPU's for DAW performance is not a great idea. I'd wait to see some proper testing first. I expect performance to be similar to the MBP depending on thermals. The ultra will be better of course. I can't really comment on the GPU as for DAW use its not needed (but you're still paying for it).


----------



## will_m

aeliron said:


> Plus the fans are WAY more impressive


It doesn't come with fans.


----------



## mat1

Pier said:


> It has to be said Geekbench does some weird things to simulate real world usage on multicore benchmarks. Another point to mention is that AMD will be releasing new chips soon.
> 
> Still, it's super impressive that a $4000 machine can compete with a RTX 3090 + Threadripper 3990X.
> 
> And the M1 Mac Pro will probably be double the performance of the M1 Ultra.


Yeah it’s very cool. These new machines are just killer. Apple are very competitive now.

I think cpu wise it’ll be closer to the 12900k (based on cinebench scores) but that’s still amazing considering the overall package.


----------



## Pier

will_m said:


> I mean you can pay 9k if you want to but its not really necessary.


Yes, but like I said, even if cost $4000 that's still only the CPU.

With no fan 😂



will_m said:


> Also using synthetic benchmarks like GB to measure and compare CPU's for DAW performance is not a great idea. I'd wait to see some proper testing first.


Yes, I mentioned that too in my previous comments.



mat1 said:


> I think cpu wise it’ll be closer to the 12900k (based on cinebench scores) but that’s still amazing considering the overall package.


We'll have to wait and see to get a good sense of how it performs for DAW use.

Not all workloads perform the same. Eg: you can't extrapolate Cinebench scores into number of DAW tracks for example.


----------



## gsilbers

VinRice said:


> The integrated chip architecture means that the M1 Max can only support 64. The M1 Ultra is literally two M1 Maxes, therefore 128GB.


Yep… as aforementioned


----------



## aeliron

will_m said:


> It doesn't come with fans.


----------



## gsilbers

NoamL said:


> video/photo/design people want color accuracy, we just want screen real estate. It's 1 more example of how our needs are kind of off to the side of the main market.
> 
> imagine explaining our use case to a hardware designer.
> 
> "No, you see, I want to be able to play back sixty-four CDroms at the same time - and have a zero latency skip-to-anywhere function for each CD independently..."




Hahah … even at the pc builders and music production forums keep saying no one needs that much ram.


----------



## gsilbers

Pier said:


> There you have it.
> 
> It has to be said Geekbench does some weird things to simulate real world usage on multicore benchmarks. Another point to mention is that AMD will be releasing new chips soon.
> 
> Still, it's super impressive that a $4000 machine can compete with a RTX 3090 + Threadripper 3990X.
> 
> And the M1 Mac Pro will probably be double the performance of the M1 Ultra.



So that single core performance hmmmm….

I use logic and it’s one core issue (at least Mojave). Piles up tons of processing to one core which causes spikes.
So I thought it would be much higher?


----------



## gsilbers

Vik said:


> Maybe that will be doable in M2 Max, but there will still be something the M2 Max can't do – otherwise people wouldn't buy M3 Max.



That’s a good point. M2 could reach 256ram on the ultra.

But it might take some time I think.

Seems Apple is gonna be putting these chips on everything and then some. 
The iPad now has it.
There was a rumor of a computer in a keyboard.


----------



## will_m

Pier said:


> Yes, but like I said, even if cost $4000 that's still only the CPU.
> 
> With no fan 😂
> 
> 
> Yes, I mentioned that too in my previous comments.
> 
> 
> We'll have to wait and see to get a good sense of how it performs for DAW use.
> 
> Not all workloads perform the same. Eg: you can't extrapolate Cinebench scores into number of DAW tracks for example.


It costs that much for the CPU because it has 64 cores. You seem to be saying that is comparable to the M1 Ultra but that assumption is based on GB scores, which you seem to also agree are not a good way to gauge potential DAW performance? Anyway I don't want to derail this thread, I only popped in to correct your post on pricing and potential performance.

I'm excited to see what the Mac Studio will bring, its the closest I think Apple has come to providing a somewhat affordable workstation with decent power and larger memory options. Would have loved it to be in a more future proof form factor but its seems that ship has sailed a while ago.




aeliron said:


>


Ah sorry, I'm not into Star Wars.


----------



## Vik

gsilbers said:


> There was a rumor of a computer in a keyboard.









Old rumor. I've had one of these.


----------



## aeliron

will_m said:


> Ah sorry, I'm not into Star Wars.


1. What is this “Star Wars”

2. Apologies accepted, Captain Needa


----------



## Pier

gsilbers said:


> So I thought it would be much higher?


The cores are the same as all the other M1 so there shouldn't be much of a difference.

It's still fantastic single core perf though. In all benchmarks I've seen, the M1 scores about 90% of the fastest Intel chip.



will_m said:


> It costs that much for the CPU because it has 64 cores. You seem to be saying that is comparable to the M1 Ultra but that assumption is based on GB scores, which you seem to also agree are not a good way to gauge potential DAW performance? Anyway I don't want to derail this thread, I only popped in to correct your post on pricing and potential performance.


I've been saying from the start we will need real world DAW benchmarks... My point is simply that if the M1 Ultra is comparable to a Threadripper 3990X on a workload from GB, at that price point, that's going to ruffle a lot of feathers in the PC world.

Pricing is very relative too. For example here in Mexico you can't find an RTX 3090 for less than $3,000 USD. I'm sure in the UK or the US this is inconceivable.


----------



## AlexRuger

I am completely gobsmacked that this computer exists. This form factor is what I've been *begging* them for, for *years.* Absolutely incredible that it's finally here.

To anyone not down with the price...I'd say you should price out your own similarly spec'd PC and then compare. I just built an i9 PC with 128GB of RAM for about $5k, and that didn't even include the GPU or most of the drives, as those were reused from older computers. And considering how much Apple Silicon spanks x86, a computer with the same amount of RAM, with the same or more cores, at the same or faster clock speeds, with faster discs, an absurd GPU (obviously only really care about this for a DAW machine, not a VEP machine), a much lower energy draw, etc...these are priced very, very appropriately. Also we need to remember that these are new, novel designs, and that R&D ain't cheap. My napkin math doesn't show it being passed onto consumers much at all.

So, bravo Apple. I foresee this becoming *the* computer to buy for composers. It's right in the sweet spot in every sense.


----------



## will_m

Pier said:


> I've been saying from the start we will need real world DAW benchmarks... My point is simply that if the M1 Ultra is comparable to a Threadripper 3990X on a workload from GB, at that price point, that's going to ruffle a lot of feathers in the PC world.


Forgive me but that's not quite how you put it initially. Anyway, we'll wait and see, hopefully this machine will fill the gap that some of my Mac based friends have had, most not wanting the MP but needing more memory than the mini or MBP's.


----------



## NoamL

Pier said:


> And the M1 Mac Pro will probably be double the performance of the M1 Ultra.


Yes, seems like Mac Pro Apple Silicon could be where they roll out the 4 chip config. But I struggle to imagine how composers could stress these quad chip machines. There are youtube testbench vids where people are able to run 500 audio tracks each with individual reverbs and eqs, on a 1 chip laptop!


----------



## KEM

NoamL said:


> Yes, seems like Mac Pro Apple Silicon could be where they roll out the 4 chip config. But I struggle to imagine how composers could stress these quad chip machines. There are youtube testbench vids where people are able to run 500 audio tracks each with individual reverbs and eqs, on a 1 chip laptop!



Yeah I don’t expect to push even half of this M1 Ultra, I bought it just to be safe for the future, I want this machine to last at least a decade


----------



## carlc

KEM said:


> You’d be paying at least $20k for an equivalent spec’d Mac Pro, this is an absolute steal if you ask me


I think they have been conditioning us with the Mac Pro prices, knowing they were going to drop this in 2022!


----------



## BassClef

I just pulled the trigger... 

Apple M1 Ultra with 20-core CPU
48-core GPU
32-core Neural Engine
128GB unified memory
2TB SSD storage
Studio Display 

$6798... $2000 less than I almost paid for an iMac Pro a year ago!


----------



## rnb_2

This announcement finally pushed me over the edge on an M1 Pro MacBook Pro. Absolutely nothing wrong with the Mac Studio, but an M1 Max is overkill for my needs and, after messing with the hassle of keeping my M1 Mac mini and M1 MacBook Air (and an Intel mini before the Air) in sync for 16 months, I really wanted to get back to one computer if possible. I still need a laptop for future travel, and B&H had the Space Gray 14" M1 Pro (10-core/16-core)/32GB/2TB config in stock, so I finally pulled the trigger.

Still kinda shocked that they finally made this computer. It's been the dream for so many people for many years, and to finally have it be reality is amazing. A Mac Studio, paired with a Studio Display (or two), is going to make for a pretty amazing setup. Since I work at two desks, though, it just makes more sense to move a 3.5lb laptop between them, rather than a 6lb cube.


----------



## Dewdman42

gsilbers said:


> im sure thunderbolt4 is good enough for us but the internal expansion seems limited. ram at least. not sure ssd. they metioned up to 8tb inside.


This machine looks great for someone in a position to buy a lot of new peripherals. For me, I would have to replace thousands of dollars of external stuff... maybe? Maybe there are conversion cables for my current displays to work with thunderbolt4? I'm not really sure about that.

But what we see here is proof of concept of a machine with plenty of cores, plenty of speed, plenty of Ram for what we do.....and basically yes I expect this to be the mid-price Mac line that musicians will flock to. I suspect they will come out with a number of models over time. I think calling it the "Studio" shows they were thinking right exactly in line with our particular use case honestly...in terms of the amount of juice it needs to have...high enough, but not over the top like the 2019 MP. And not some insanely priced but gorgeous case with $800 wheels either.

I also have a PCI audio card I depend on, which would require replacing, that alone, something like $3000 worth of stuff if I can't use it anymore...or else I'd have to get a thunderbolt PCI carriage...which is possible... And probably some more boxes to accommodate my 6 SSD drives too....

How many SSD's can we get internally on this thing BTW?

Well anyway, this is definitely more power then I was expecting to see this soon, its great news. This will do a lot to bring the audio community into Apple Silicon a lot faster too I think.


----------



## Dewdman42

NoamL said:


> Yes, seems like Mac Pro Apple Silicon could be where they roll out the 4 chip config. But I struggle to imagine how composers could stress these quad chip machines. There are youtube testbench vids where people are able to run 500 audio tracks each with individual reverbs and eqs, on a 1 chip laptop!


we don't need that much power. faster cores would help us with lower latency while recording. But with all those cores....pretty much almost none of us are going to need more power then this. For me, this is getting to the zone, but I do have to figure out some connectivity issues with my thousands of dollars of external gear that I don't really want to replace. Also, I am personally waiting until all the software has caught up a little more with native apple silicon functionality. But that's just me. I'm very happy though to see that Apple created a true mid-level machine..something that has been missing from the Mac line for a long time.


----------



## rnb_2

Dewdman42 said:


> This machine looks great for someone in a position to buy a lot of new peripherals. For me, I would have to replace thousands of dollars of external stuff... maybe? Maybe there are conversion cables for my current displays to work with thunderbolt4? I'm not really sure about that.
> 
> But what we see here is proof of concept of a machine with plenty of cores, plenty of speed, plenty of Ram for what we do.....and basically yes I expect this to be the mid-price Mac line that musicians will flock to. I suspect they will come out with a number of models over time. I think calling it the "Studio" shows they were thinking right exactly in line with our particular use case honestly...in terms of the amount of juice it needs to have...high enough, but not over the top like the 2019 MP. And not some insanely priced but gorgeous case with $800 wheels either.
> 
> I also have a PCI audio card I depend on, which would require replacing, that alone, something like $3000 worth of stuff if I can't use it anymore...or else I'd have to get a thunderbolt PCI carriage...which is possible... And probably some more boxes to accommodate my 6 SSD drives too....
> 
> How many SSD's can we get internally on this thing BTW?
> 
> Well anyway, this is definitely more power then I was expecting to see this soon, its great news. This will do a lot to bring the audio community into Apple Silicon a lot faster too I think.


You'll probably want to check out Sonnet's PCI expansion systems.


----------



## Dewdman42

That's one option for one thing, when I get there. I'm not there yet.


----------



## Dewdman42

Honestly the more I think about it, I'm going to run my 5,1 into the ground for quite a while as much as gear lust makes me want to get the latest thing. But I am happy, as I said, that Apple is thinking in terms of a mid-tier machine...a category which I think they have patently missed for maybe 20 years. This is going to be in the zone eventually...But I'm still waiting until at least next year for myself. I'll let the rest of you work out all the Apple Silicon issues and I still will wait to see if they will come out with an M1 Pro that has PCI slots and drive bays that doesn't cost a fortune.


----------



## tabulius

Please, everyone who will get this, report back and let us know how the VI performance turns out. I wish Scanproaudio would take the Mac Studio and compare it with the AMD vs. Intel tests. Everyone is so excited about those "8 X more powerful!!" claims but don't realize those are just the best-case scenario benchmarks and you don't get the 8 times of voices or Kontakt instruments.

I still suspect that even with 20-cores M1, the 12 or 16-core AMD might give similar results in low latency voice counts at a less cost. But I can't tell for sure because nobody is doing reliable comparisons. I watched one guy testing M1 on Youtube and being totally excited when working with 10 audio loops and putting an eq and compressor in every track. 🙄

But the Mac Studio being that size, you can't really beat the power / performance or size / performance. But can you beat the price / performance with let's say AMD build? I'm happy if it turns out that big demanding virtual instrument projects just love the M1 Ultra and I can get the Mac Pro performance in that size.

Apple event did tell us: "Dj sets become more expressive!" 🤦‍♂️

Another big concern for me is I could not run my project in native mode, because still 60-70% of the plugins and instruments are NOT fully supported that I use daily basis.

This is a minor complaint but I wish they did something special with the design. Now it just looks like a fat mini. But it seems the cooling takes a big portion of the case so I'm all in for a decent cooling and thermal performance.

The studio monitor was meh, but I'm sure graphic designers are happy. They really need to start making 32+ inch monitors tho. 5k resolution is a joke in that 27 inch size imo.


----------



## Nimrod7

will_m said:


> It costs that much for the CPU because it has 64 cores. You seem to be saying that is comparable to the M1 Ultra but that assumption is based on GB scores, which you seem to also agree are not a good way to gauge potential DAW performance?


Real world performance is somehow known already. I have a max here running Houdini simulations while on battery on my lap! It’s 1.62cm thick. Seems like unreal. When I brought it I was keeping in mind to return it because I was confident it will fail. It didn’t.

PC laptops are close to explode if you add that kind of workload to them. Hell my desktop pc is close to explode when running those kind of sims.

And this thing is thick, and double performance. I am very very confident it can do exceptionally well.


----------



## Mike Stone

Would the doubled memory bandwidth of the M1 Ultra make a noticeable performance difference for composers (using a DAW like Logic Pro), over the regular M1 Max?


----------



## wayne_rowley

Had a chance to digest all of this now. I think it's enough to keep me away from PCs  

- Best spec for me would be M1 Max, 64GB RAM, 1TB SSD. I'd like the Ultra but I don't need it and can't really afford it. Even this spec is pricey (£2.5K) but not more than a decent PC would be.

- I'll probably wait for this to come on the Apple Refurb store before I consider buying it (my Mini is still running okay). Save more that way.

- I'm keen to know if this has the Bluetooth connection issues that the Mac Mini has - these are a real pain sometimes!

- I'm keen to know whether USB speeds of the TB4 ports are any better than with the previous AS Macs. My external sample libs are USB 3.1 - which is plenty fast on my Intel Mac Mini, but I'd lose speed going to AS, and I don't really want to have to buy a thunderbolt enclosure to get around Apple's poor USB implementation

- Still waiting for all my software to be AS native

Wayne


----------



## Manaberry

We need a way to use those GPU cores for music... Half the price is for that damn GPU cores.


----------



## Alex Fraser

Very pleased that Apple is serving this market. Honestly thought it would never happen and I’m very happy to be proven incorrect!

Also good news for the future of Logic (and FCP) as this machine is basically Apple parading a flag in the world of media production. Good times.


----------



## NoamL

tabulius said:


> But the Mac Studio being that size, you can't really beat the power / performance or size / performance. But can you beat the price / performance with let's say AMD build? I'm happy if it turns out that big demanding virtual instrument projects just love the M1 Ultra and I can get the Mac Pro performance in that size.


As with the post earlier that said the Intel Mac Pro wasn't a fair comparison - that's a totally fair point in the abstract, but ultimately Logic users have to buy _some_ Mac (or build Hackintosh).

With MBP you are paying for Retina and Touchbar. With MacPro you are buying a machine that was supposed to go to Pixar and you're begging them to take parts OUT so you can afford it  finally this machine comes along and fits right in between where it should be.

Probably over the course of the next 5-10 years there will be much cheaper ways to build a VEP-specced 128gb computer - as a PC. The great thing about this Mac Studio is that it starts its lifespan as a really nice all in one machine and then when (tbh: if) orchestral VI composers need way more RAM by 2028 then it migrates to being a DAW machine that talks to a big, cheap VEP PC.


----------



## Nimrod7

Manaberry said:


> We need a way to use those GPU cores for music... Half the price is for that damn GPU cores.


I had a mini 2018, on a double 4K and it was suffering so hard with the UI. VPS Avenger was unusable laggy, you were moving the mouse and the audio was stuttering. Wavelab with the scopes was running like 3fps! 

I guess my point is a good GPU can make things fluid which matters when you're working, however I agree all that horsepower is not needed for Audio Applications. 
I will never ever ever ever again however rely on integrated graphics. They suck.


----------



## AdamKmusic

I’ve never been more tempted to switch over to mac, my last PC cost me £1.8k so this would be an extra £1k over that but the performance & power is probably tenfold! I’ll wait until later in the year for some reviews


----------



## tmhuud

Looking very much towards eo22 for M1Mpro.


----------



## José Herring

Manaberry said:


> We need a way to use those GPU cores for music... Half the price is for that damn GPU cores.


I've read somewhere here that GPU power gets utilized a lot in our software. So I'm wondering if paying the extra $1000 would be worth it. I mean is 48 cores of GPU THAT much slower than 64 cores of GPU?


----------



## mat1

Pier said:


> Not all workloads perform the same. Eg: you can't extrapolate Cinebench scores into number of DAW tracks for example.


I have always found that cinebech scales pretty closely with DAW use.


----------



## Daniel James

Looking forward to hearing those user feedbacks! this looks like it could be my next machine for sure. Still rocking the 2013 trashcan mac. TBH Its still running perfectly fine, but I can see writing on the wall 😂


----------



## Instrugramm

Interesting release indeed, I'm anxious to see how well it can be cooled. I only just recently got a 28" Samsung 4k 144hz display for 640 euros, so at least for composing purposes their display would definitely be a no-go in my book but the Mac Studio's price is quite good (except the 8tb price bump).

I completed my new PC late last year for around 5k, since it's got 11tb of ssd space in combination with a 5950x, 128gb of ram (3800mhz) and a 3080ti, it will be interesting to see how much more performance the 3000 euros of surplus will yield under real world circumstances.

Well played Apple.


----------



## Simon Ravn

AlexRuger said:


> I am completely gobsmacked that this computer exists. This form factor is what I've been *begging* them for, for *years.* Absolutely incredible that it's finally here.
> 
> To anyone not down with the price...I'd say you should price out your own similarly spec'd PC and then compare. I just built an i9 PC with 128GB of RAM for about $5k, and that didn't even include the GPU or most of the drives, as those were reused from older computers. And considering how much Apple Silicon spanks x86, a computer with the same amount of RAM, with the same or more cores, at the same or faster clock speeds, with faster discs, an absurd GPU (obviously only really care about this for a DAW machine, not a VEP machine), a much lower energy draw, etc...these are priced very, very appropriately. Also we need to remember that these are new, novel designs, and that R&D ain't cheap. My napkin math doesn't show it being passed onto consumers much at all.
> 
> So, bravo Apple. I foresee this becoming *the* computer to buy for composers. It's right in the sweet spot in every sense.


The only thing missing is internal storage. Time will tell how well it works -thermally especially - with one/more external enclosures hosting SATA/nVME drives over TB.


----------



## will_m

Nimrod7 said:


> Real world performance is somehow known already. I have a max here running Houdini simulations while on battery on my lap! It’s 1.62cm thick. Seems like unreal. When I brought it I was keeping in mind to return it because I was confident it will fail. It didn’t.


Yup I mentioned that in another post, performance is likely similar to MBP depending on thermals. I'm not familiar with Houdini software but I'm not sure it relates to DAW's.



Nimrod7 said:


> PC laptops are close to explode if you add that kind of workload to them. Hell my desktop pc is close to explode when running those kind of sims.
> 
> And this thing is thick, and double performance. I am very very confident it can do exceptionally well.


I'm not sure what you can really take away from this? If you're confident in the Mac studio though then go for it.


----------



## Grilled Cheese

I wonder if a new “Mac Pro” is still on the cards for 2022-2023 or if the new Mac Studio (M1 Ultra) is going to be as far as performance goes? Do rumours indicate a Mac Studio Ultra Duo for example, with 40 CPU cores etc?


----------



## StefVR

That’s nearly for sure now. They even mentioned at the event that next is mac pro. Also old leaks showed already this Multi m1 Concept and that the last iteration will be 4 chips together. So basically 2 ultra.

Could come as early as Sumer with their developer conference butvthats speculation from my side.


----------



## wayne_rowley

Grilled Cheese said:


> I wonder if a new “Mac Pro” is still on the cards for 2022-2023 or if the new Mac Studio (M1 Ultra) is going to be as far as performance goes? Do rumours indicate a Mac Studio Ultra Duo for example, with 40 CPU cores etc?


It is. Apple mentioned that the Mac Pro is still to come. I'd expect it at the end of this year - perhaps previewed in the summer developer event.

Probably start with M1 Ultra. We may see a new processor variant, or perhaps they will go back to dual processors (dual M1 Ultra...).

Wayne


----------



## davidson

What I didnt understand and was left disappointed by was this - touting 'modularity' as an important point. They never elaborated on it and tbh, I don't see any modularity with the studio at all. I immediately thought we would be able to add our own drives, ram, maybe daisy chain units etc. Nope. So what were they meaning do you think?


----------



## StefVR

The m1 Chip is the modular design but makes it impossible to make Ram cpu gpu modular. Best you can hope is that ssds become replaceable in Mac Pro.

Bitvthats the future. You can’t have extreme low latency when stuff is connected in the old fashioned pc way.


----------



## AdamKmusic

davidson said:


> What I didnt understand and was left disappointed by was this - touting 'modularity' as an important point. They never elaborated on it and tbh, I don't see any modularity with the studio at all. I immediately thought we would be able to add our own drives, ram, maybe daisy chain units etc. Nope. So what were they meaning do you think?


It’s definitely an odd point for them to make but I think it’s “modular” in the sense that you choose the monitor / mouse keyboard etc rather than it all being packaged like an iMac. Not in the sense that you can easily replace parts of the computer itself.


----------



## el-bo

Keep hearing people (Not necessarily here) talking about how expensive these 'Studio' models are. At least with the base models (The lower-spec'd, f'sure), there is a huge amount of power available at the price-point. My first MBP (2007) cost almost the same. It was a Core2Duo (2.3, I think), with 2Gigs of memory and some tiny amount of hard-drive space 

I understand that many would be forced into 'Ultra' mode, for memory's sake. But aren't these mainly professionals? (The assumption being it's an investment that'd hopefully pay for itself many times over). If one can resist the temptation to go for the screen and/or to go large on internal storage (deferring to the externals they likely already have), they can have a machine that trounces the old Pro, for so much less.

Also, if Apple sticks to the price/update model of Logic Pro going forward, those interested in the DAW may get up to 10 years use from a $200 purchase. Has there ever been a better and cheaper time to run an Apple DAW?


----------



## Kent

can't wait until they encase it in clear acrylic


----------



## gsilbers

Dewdman42 said:


> This machine looks great for someone in a position to buy a lot of new peripherals. For me, I would have to replace thousands of dollars of external stuff... maybe? Maybe there are conversion cables for my current displays to work with thunderbolt4? I'm not really sure about that.
> 
> But what we see here is proof of concept of a machine with plenty of cores, plenty of speed, plenty of Ram for what we do.....and basically yes I expect this to be the mid-price Mac line that musicians will flock to. I suspect they will come out with a number of models over time. I think calling it the "Studio" shows they were thinking right exactly in line with our particular use case honestly...in terms of the amount of juice it needs to have...high enough, but not over the top like the 2019 MP. And not some insanely priced but gorgeous case with $800 wheels either.
> 
> I also have a PCI audio card I depend on, which would require replacing, that alone, something like $3000 worth of stuff if I can't use it anymore...or else I'd have to get a thunderbolt PCI carriage...which is possible... And probably some more boxes to accommodate my 6 SSD drives too....
> 
> How many SSD's can we get internally on this thing BTW?
> 
> Well anyway, this is definitely more power then I was expecting to see this soon, its great news. This will do a lot to bring the audio community into Apple Silicon a lot faster too I think.


I think from apples point of for Studio use, most music prodcuers will have an USB2 interface (most common) or new thunderbolts will come out. (or usbc) and pcie will slowly fade from consumers hands over time. Yes you will have it and a few others but eventaully the amount/speed of data these interfaces carry doesn't require them to be pcie specific. 

There didnt seem to be a lot of space left inside but the spec said 8tb max ssd. so depends on the type of ssd they are using. my guess its m.2 type of drive. 8tb m2 exist and are not that expensive and are very fast. maybe thats all thats needed. now of course we all have random 1tb and 2tb drives all around but maybe eventually internal 8tb is all we'll ever need? not sure. for me its a good case scenario. i have the sata 8tb external and its been great. 

I venture to guess a lot of poeple are in a similar situation as you that because mac trashcans and mac mini is all there was a for a while, now we all have tons of external peripherals :/
so the switch will take some time.


----------



## gsilbers

Dewdman42 said:


> Honestly the more I think about it, I'm going to run my 5,1 into the ground for quite a while as much as gear lust makes me want to get the latest thing. But I am happy, as I said, that Apple is thinking in terms of a mid-tier machine...a category which I think they have patently missed for maybe 20 years. This is going to be in the zone eventually...But I'm still waiting until at least next year for myself. I'll let the rest of you work out all the Apple Silicon issues and I still will wait to see if they will come out with an M1 Pro that has PCI slots and drive bays that doesn't cost a fortune.



Actually me too. mainly cuz of the price but also i want to see if the internal drive is replaceable so i can use my 8tb. 

also... im still stuck with loving my virus ti too much and havent passed mojave. once a decent plugin editor comes along or, IF access updates it to m1 then ill sure jump ship from my mac pro 5,1.


----------



## gsilbers

Kent said:


> can't wait until they encase it in clear acrylic


my goodness... you have there an amazing oportunity to get some extra dough selling those cases in amazon.


----------



## gsilbers

el-bo said:


> Keep hearing people (Not necessarily here) talking about how expensive these 'Studio' models are. At least with the base models (The lower-spec'd, f'sure), there is a huge amount of power available at the price-point. My first MBP (2007) cost almost the same. It was a Core2Duo (2.3, I think), with 2Gigs of memory and some tiny amount of hard-drive space
> 
> I understand that many would be forced into 'Ultra' mode, for memory's sake. But aren't these mainly professionals? (The assumption being it's an investment that'd hopefully pay for itself many times over). If one can resist the temptation to go for the screen and/or to go large on internal storage (deferring to the externals they likely already have), they can have a machine that trounces the old Pro, for so much less.
> 
> Also, if Apple sticks to the price/update model of Logic Pro going forward, those interested in the DAW may get up to 10 years use from a $200 purchase. Has there ever been a better and cheaper time to run an Apple DAW?



"professionals" or poeple who buy too many sample libraries


----------



## gsilbers

Pier said:


> The cores are the same as all the other M1 so there shouldn't be much of a difference.
> 
> It's still fantastic single core perf though. In all benchmarks I've seen, the M1 scores about 90% of the fastest Intel chip.
> 
> 
> I've been saying from the start we will need real world DAW benchmarks... My point is simply that if the M1 Ultra is comparable to a Threadripper 3990X on a workload from GB, at that price point, that's going to ruffle a lot of feathers in the PC world.
> 
> Pricing is very relative too. For example here in Mexico you can't find an RTX 3090 for less than $3,000 USD. I'm sure in the UK or the US this is inconceivable.



yeah, but still the benchmark is in multicore, right? I have m1 air and still the single core and plugins like omnisphere diva etc on logic are an issue. 
i mean, its mostly a logic issue of course, unless something changed. 

the price imo is very good and see intel struggling in the near future. but apple went more on the multicore than single core on this ncrease of speed. maybe intel/amd are faster single core?


----------



## gsilbers

davidson said:


> What I didnt understand and was left disappointed by was this - touting 'modularity' as an important point. They never elaborated on it and tbh, I don't see any modularity with the studio at all. I immediately thought we would be able to add our own drives, ram, maybe daisy chain units etc. Nope. So what were they meaning do you think?



me too. i think the russian mad sicentist looking fellow later mentioned the way the m1 chip works where its bascially adding more chips together (like modules) and the connection between them is super fast. so in theory the ultra line can be expanded even more?
and thunderbolt is like 40gb per second transfer. and it has several ports. so expansions? not sure. maybe its a marketing thing cuz thats one thing studio people have asked?

the other part i dont get... and from apple in general, its their "green" message and how green they are. like they dont notice, or try to hide the fact that thay are producing tons of waste on every update/upgrade/new phone etc and the inmense planned obsolencence while windows pepole havent replaced their systems in many many years in comparison.








Is Apple Environmentally Friendly? - Across The Green


If you're wondering if Apple is environmentally friendly, read our post on the environmental cost of Apple products.




www.acrossthegreen.com





"There is an argument to be made that a company that is trying to sell you a new phone every year could not be environmentally friendly in principle. The manufacture, use and recycling of these devices are tough on the environment, something which is made worse if they are being replaced on a regular basis. If they released a new device every 3 years instead of every year, this would be better for the environment than what they are currently doing."


----------



## Vik

NoamL said:


> ultimately Logic users have to buy _some_ Mac (or build Hackintosh).


True, and Hackintoshes are doomed to become even less interesting than they already are since new Macs (and soon new OS versions, new Logic versions etc.) rely on components that cannot be bought on the open market. 

The i7 and i9 iMacs, btw, seems to be removed from the Apple store already. Or – they are listed, but there's no Buy button there anymore.


----------



## PeterKorcek

Incredible, can't wait to watch the keynote later today.
I am glad I waited and they finally have the option for 128 GB RAM, with M1 Ultra the performance should be bonkers - will buy after some reviews and real world tests.

I am just thinking if 4 or 8 TB - does anyone have a good source about comparing PCIe slots with NVME SSDs (Mac Pro, PC), internal Apple SSDs on these chips (M1 Ultra/Max) and external Thunderbolt 4 devices? Thanks


----------



## IFM

Well, I pulled the trigger with a trade-in of my MP 6,1. If you start with the lower config and up it to the Ultra with 128GB it thinks it will be in sooner, but after completing the order it's now mid-May. 

M1 Ultra with 48 core GPU
128GB Unified Ram
2TB SSD

That config, even when started with the M1 Max flips the front ports to TB4 and thus making the lead time 2 months. 

I run three monitors and I see OWC has a TB4 breakout box with three TB4 ports, that will drive the monitors with one cable then I suspect.


----------



## Pier

Nimrod7 said:


> Real world performance is somehow known already. I have a max here running Houdini simulations while on battery on my lap! It’s 1.62cm thick. Seems like unreal. When I brought it I was keeping in mind to return it because I was confident it will fail. It didn’t.
> 
> PC laptops are close to explode if you add that kind of workload to them. Hell my desktop pc is close to explode when running those kind of sims.
> 
> And this thing is thick, and double performance. I am very very confident it can do exceptionally well.


Saw a video yesterday of someone reviewing the M1 Mini for music production basically saying it's more stable and can push more tracks than his much more powerful desktop PC.

We'll see real DAW benchmarks in a couple of months, but I'm pretty confident the M1 Ultra will be able to rival chips with many more cores like the Threadripper series.


----------



## Pier

mat1 said:


> I have always found that cinebech scales pretty closely with DAW use.


It depends on so many factors.

My DAW machine has a Ryzen 3700X. Look at this DAW benchmark:






To begin with, CPUs don't scale linearly with different buffer sizes. Look at the massive difference between the 3700X and the 9600K at 64 vs 128.

If you look at Cinebench scores the 9600K has about 40-50% more points than the 3700X but in real world DAW use the difference between those two is very different. Eg: at 128 the 9600K has more than twice the polyphony compared to the 3700X.


----------



## el-bo

gsilbers said:


> "professionals" or poeple who buy too many sample libraries


Indeed! Although it's not the amount of libraries bought, but the amount one wants/need running at the same time. So when it comes to drawing a line between hobbyists/enthusiasts and professionals, I'd place it at 'Not having enough time to fuck around with freezing and unfreezing tracks'  

That extra 64gig of memory really hikes up the prices.


----------



## LinusW

I went for M1 Max, 64 GB and 2 TB storage. I've been doing good with my i9 at 40 GB RAM, and the M1 16 GB was too low, so I think 64 GB will do everything I need.


----------



## Mike Stone

Michael Antrum said:


> I'm not sure that is true. This new machine is outperforming Mac Pros that cost significantly more......It is way cheaper than what went before.....


I disagree. These are two completely different systems, and a direct comparison is invalid for obvious reasons. Also try ordering a MacBook Pro 14" with similar specs, and it's less than 300$ more expensive vs. the Mac Studio. Apple are continuing to crank up their prices, like they've been doing for the last 5-6 years now. I'm sure a lot of people are going to buy this one though, so Apple will continue to make money. At least they didn't go for a thin and noisy solution this time, so there's that.


----------



## Instrugramm

Pier said:


> It depends on so many factors.
> 
> My DAW machine has a Ryzen 3700X. Look at this DAW benchmark:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To begin with, CPUs don't scale linearly with different buffer sizes. Look at the massive difference between the 3700X and the 9600K at 64 vs 128.
> 
> If you look at Cinebench scores the 9600K has about 40-50% more points than the 3700X but in real world DAW use the difference between those two is very different. Eg: at 128 the 9600K has more than twice the polyphony compared to the 3700X.


Exactly, the 5950X for example is great with smaller buffer sizes but gets crushed by the 12900k (the CPU Apple compared their new silicon with in the presentation) once buffer size increases. It's really hard to judge CPU performance regarding Daw and vi tasks.


----------



## robgb

Why does this always turn into a Mac vs. PC war? The truth is this. This M1 Ultra machine is VERY impressive. And if you are a Mac user and prefer the Mac user experience, then it's great to have a super powerful solution that comes in at a decent price for what you get. If you're a PC guy, then buy a PC. There. War settled.


----------



## Jack Weaver

_I haven't read all of this thread so please grade my question on a curve._

For music composition purposes, does it make a difference whether we use an M1 Ultra with a 48-core GPU or a 64-core GPU? And if so, to what degree?

Thanks.

.


----------



## rnb_2

Jack Weaver said:


> _I haven't read all of this thread so please grade my question on a curve._
> 
> For music composition purposes, does it make a difference whether we use an M1 Ultra with a 48-core GPU or a 64-core GPU? And if so, to what degree?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> .


Almost certainly not - on the MacBook Pro, the M1 Max was only preferable to the M1 Pro for musicians if you needed >2 external monitors or >32GB of RAM. With the Ultra, the option to go to 128GB of RAM is probably the only thing relevant for composers.


----------



## Pier

Jack Weaver said:


> _I haven't read all of this thread so please grade my question on a curve._
> 
> For music composition purposes, does it make a difference whether we use an M1 Ultra with a 48-core GPU or a 64-core GPU? And if so, to what degree?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> .


No. The 48 core is already overkill for DAW usage.


----------



## jeffrona

Is everyone here already running Monterey? We've been on Big Sur a while. Any plugs break on the upgrade, or any other issues? Copy protection issues?


----------



## rnb_2

jeffrona said:


> Is everyone here already running Monterey? We've been on Big Sur a while. Any plugs break on the upgrade, or any other issues? Copy protection issues?


The Exponential Audio reverbs no longer work in Monterey - not sure if anything else has broken.


----------



## el-bo

gsilbers said:


> me too. i think the russian mad sicentist looking fellow later mentioned the way the m1 chip works where its bascially adding more chips together (like modules) and the connection between them is super fast. so in theory the ultra line can be expanded even more?
> and thunderbolt is like 40gb per second transfer. and it has several ports. so expansions? not sure. maybe its a marketing thing cuz thats one thing studio people have asked?
> 
> the other part i dont get... and from apple in general, its their "green" message and how green they are. like they dont notice, or try to hide the fact that thay are producing tons of waste on every update/upgrade/new phone etc and the inmense planned obsolencence while windows pepole havent replaced their systems in many many years in comparison.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is Apple Environmentally Friendly? - Across The Green
> 
> 
> If you're wondering if Apple is environmentally friendly, read our post on the environmental cost of Apple products.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.acrossthegreen.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "There is an argument to be made that a company that is trying to sell you a new phone every year could not be environmentally friendly in principle. The manufacture, use and recycling of these devices are tough on the environment, something which is made worse if they are being replaced on a regular basis. If they released a new device every 3 years instead of every year, this would be better for the environment than what they are currently doing."


I agree on the contradictory nature of their eco-messaging, in light of the perpetual push to release new, non-user-upgradable/serviceable tech. However, I'm not sure this is an Apple vs PC/Non-Apple thing. Certainly, Android phones and Windows computers seem to be pumped out in the same cycles.

When it comes to creatives and their tools, I think things are very different. For us (I think I'm still a 'creative'  ), stability is key. I think it's also normal for gear to be bought with a view to longevity. In this regard, I've not detected any difference between Mac and Windows users. I tend to hear more accounts of people like myself, still using a mid-2012 MBP, or 2013 MPro's and even users still on 2010 Pro towers. I've no reason to believe there aren't Windows users still getting creative mileage out of hardware from the same era.


----------



## Nimrod7

jeffrona said:


> Is everyone here already running Monterey? We've been on Big Sur a while. Any plugs break on the upgrade, or any other issues? Copy protection issues?


I am running a post setup in Monterey, not daw work. Hardware licensing is not an issue, I run both Steinberg dongles, and iLok, and maybe 70-80 plugins in total.
Waves, Universal Audio, some stuff I have installed from Plugin-Alliance, and most of the Izotope stuff work fine.

However I have seen issues with Pro Tools + Izotope, specifically Dialogue Match, if you use any of this.


----------



## will_m

José Herring said:


> I've read somewhere here that GPU power gets utilized a lot in our software. So I'm wondering if paying the extra $1000 would be worth it. I mean is 48 cores of GPU THAT much slower than 64 cores of GPU?


I've heard the same but never seen much evidence of it. For example at present I have a RTX 2060, so an older mid tier card. Currently running a 250+ track project with over 150 instances of Kontakt. Even with Cubase spread across two 2k monitors with mp4 video playing, mixer window open and as many plugins and analysers as I can fit on 2 screens my GPU utilization is never beyond about 15-20% and that's me trying to break it. It usually hovers around 5%.


----------



## jbuhler

NoamL said:


> As with the post earlier that said the Intel Mac Pro wasn't a fair comparison - that's a totally fair point in the abstract, but ultimately Logic users have to buy _some_ Mac (or build Hackintosh).
> 
> With MBP you are paying for Retina and Touchbar. With MacPro you are buying a machine that was supposed to go to Pixar and you're begging them to take parts OUT so you can afford it  finally this machine comes along and fits right in between where it should be.
> 
> Probably over the course of the next 5-10 years there will be much cheaper ways to build a VEP-specced 128gb computer - as a PC. The great thing about this Mac Studio is that it starts its lifespan as a really nice all in one machine and then when (tbh: if) orchestral VI composers need way more RAM by 2028 then it migrates to being a DAW machine that talks to a big, cheap VEP PC.


I was kind of liking the move toward all-in-one machines as a long term solution, but I agree it seems like the long term stability for sample users will likely settle at two machines on the Mac side, the Mac for running the DAW and a PC with boatloads of RAM for doing most of the sample serving.


----------



## Pier

will_m said:


> I've heard the same but never seen much evidence of it. For example at present I have a RTX 2060, so an older mid tier card. Currently running a 250+ track project with over 150 instances of Kontakt. Even with Cubase spread across two 2k monitors with mp4 video playing, mixer window open and as many plugins and analysers as I can fit on 2 screens my GPU utilization is never beyond about 15-20% and that's me trying to break it. It usually hovers around 5%.


That's because the 2060 is quite a powerful dedicated desktop GPU for anything other than cutting edge gaming performance.

When you get into integrated GPU land, things are quite different.

For example I remember the myriad of issues with the last Intel Mac Mini when you tried to run a 4K monitor with it because of the integrated GPU:




Edit:

I also remember tons of reports with Ableton Live 10 and that Mini. People "hacked" Live so that it rendered at less FPS, or had to reduce the resolution of the monitor.



Live 10: 4K screens / Performance Issues - Ableton Forum


----------



## el-bo

Pier said:


> For example I remember the myriad of issues with the last Intel Mac Mini when you tried to run a 4K monitor with it because of the integrated GPU:


But there's a universe of difference between Intel integrated GFX and the (apparently) top-tier GFX-card-beating integrated graphics on these new machines, right? Four whatever-k screens + a big T.V certainly suggests so.


----------



## Pier

el-bo said:


> But there's a universe of difference between Intel integrated GFX and the (apparently) top-tier GFX-card-beating integrated graphics on these new machines, right? Four whatever-k screens + a big T.V certainly suggests so.


Oh yeah definitely.

The GPU is built into the SOC and it shares memory with the CPU, but it's a completely different thing.

See this for more details:









How “Unified Memory” Speeds Up Apple’s M1 ARM Macs


Apple is rethinking how components should exist and operate inside a laptop. With M1 chips in new Macs, Apple has a new “Unified Memory Architecture” (UMA) that dramatically speeds up memory performance. Here’s how memory works on Apple Silicon.




www.howtogeek.com


----------



## KEM

Do I see @Pier becoming an Apple fanboy again…??


----------



## gsilbers

jbuhler said:


> I was kind of liking the move toward all-in-one machines as a long term solution, but I agree it seems like the long term stability for sample users will likely settle at two machines on the Mac side, the Mac for running the DAW and a PC with boatloads of RAM for doing most of the sample serving.



I dont get why it would be more stable in general. I am indeed having issues w an all in one solution with a 128gb ram 5,1 mac pro but i thought its just cuz its from 2009 (with updated cpy from 2012). 
A new mac studio would sure handle big templates, right?


----------



## gsilbers

Nimrod7 said:


> I am running a post setup in Monterey, not daw work. Hardware licensing is not an issue, I run both Steinberg dongles, and iLok, and maybe 70-80 plugins in total.
> Waves, Universal Audio, some stuff I have installed from Plugin-Alliance, and most of the Izotope stuff work fine.
> 
> However I have seen issues with Pro Tools + Izotope, specifically Dialogue Match, if you use any of this.



pro tools is a little behind on several things. Not sure if its apple m1 native compatible yet. seems like nope. And they are also behind native atmos support.


----------



## rnb_2

el-bo said:


> But there's a universe of difference between Intel integrated GFX and the (apparently) top-tier GFX-card-beating integrated graphics on these new machines, right? Four whatever-k screens + a big T.V certainly suggests so.


Yeah, no comparison - Intel's integrated GPUs are getting better over time, but 2018 mini's integrated GPU was notably weak. Apple's GPU, while technically still "integrated", is much more capable than the UHD 630 in the 2018 mini. The M1's 8-core GPU is about 4x faster than the UHD 630 (Geekbench Metal benchmark) and about 40% of the performance of a Vega 56; the M1 Pro 16-core GPU is about 80% of the Metal performance of a Vega 56; 24-core M1 Max is a bit faster than the Vega 56, etc.


----------



## BassClef

According to Apple, the ‌M1‌ Ultra has a copper thermal module, while the ‌M1 Max‌ has an aluminum heatsink. Copper is heavier than aluminum, hence the weight difference. The ‌M1 Max‌ ‌Mac Studio‌ weighs in at 5.9 pounds, while the ‌M1‌ Ultra version is 7.9 pounds. But they have the same 370 watt power supply.


----------



## sundrowned

Those ssd prices are ridiculous. 

I moved from mac to pc a few years ago, but I've always missed logic. I'd consider going back for the right price. But this is not it yet.


----------



## rnb_2

sundrowned said:


> Those ssd prices are ridiculous.
> 
> I moved from mac to pc a few years ago, but I've always missed logic. I'd consider going back for the right price. But this is not it yet.


For PCIe 4 drives, the price is not outrageous. 1TB PCIe 4 retail ~$130-$180, while 4TB are ~$750-$900. Figure the average delta at about $650-$700, and Apple's upgrade price for 1TB to 4TB is $1k. It's ~1.5x more expensive, but not crazy, given that we're talking about Apple.


----------



## sundrowned

rnb_2 said:


> For PCIe 4 drives, the price is not outrageous. 1TB PCIe 4 retail ~$130-$180, while 4TB are ~$750-$900. Figure the average delta at about $650-$700, and Apple's upgrade price for 1TB to 4TB is $1k. It's ~1.5x more expensive, but not crazy, given that we're talking about Apple.


Fair enough. The 2tb is almost 4x what I pay for nvme.


----------



## rnb_2

sundrowned said:


> Fair enough. The 2tb is 6x what I pay for nvme.


Yeah, I get that, but most of the NVMe drives we've been buying are PCIe 3 drives. Those are already overkill for external use (because of USB-C/TB limitations), but if you're attaching to a header on a motherboard, you'll get full performance. PCIe 4 doubles performance over PCIe 3, so the storage in the current Macs are 7+ GB/s drives - I think you'd have to have a PCIe 4 motherboard to get that performance on the PC side (I don't think it can be added, but not absolutely certain).


----------



## el-bo

sundrowned said:


> Those ssd prices are ridiculous.
> 
> I moved from mac to pc a few years ago, but I've always missed logic. I'd consider going back for the right price. But this is not it yet.


But for a 'desktop' computer, why not keep internal at a lower amount, and shore it up with external drives that can be bought at a more reasonable price?


----------



## Thundercat

KEM said:


> 128gb of ram is overkill in my opinion, just use VEP and purge tracks and you can even get away with 32gb. Only reason I could ever see anyone needing 128gb is if they have like 2k tracks in their template and nothings purged, but that just doesn’t make any sense to me either


In for a penny, in for a pound. If you're already paying that much, why have to hassle purging tracks etc? Just future-proof yourself for a bit more...jmho.


----------



## sundrowned

el-bo said:


> But for a 'desktop' computer, why not keep internal at a lower amount, and shore it up with external drives that can be bought at a more reasonable price?


That would definitely be the way to go. But for me the principal of paying £600 for 2tb when I normally pay £170-190 seems prohibative. But that's just me. Maybe I'll wait for second hand.


----------



## davidson

What's the current fastest solution for external storage? What speeds could you expect to get?


----------



## KEM

Thundercat said:


> In for a penny, in for a pound. If you're already paying that much, why have to hassle purging tracks etc? Just future-proof yourself for a bit more...jmho.



I don’t even consider purging to be a hassle honestly, it’s not like you have to manually reload everything, as soon as you press a note it automatically loads them in, so I consider it to be a no-brainer


----------



## mat1

sundrowned said:


> That would definitely be the way to go. But for me the principal of paying £600 for 2tb when I normally pay £170-190 seems prohibative. But that's just me. Maybe I'll wait for second hand.


Maybe see if DSJmactechnology is still in business. He was always about 20% cheaper than Apple


----------



## aeliron

el-bo said:


> But for a 'desktop' computer, why not keep internal at a lower amount, and shore it up with external drives that can be bought at a more reasonable price?


Yeah, it really comes down to how much you want to keep your data "in the box", or how much external stuff you are OK with. For desktop, external seems a good cost-saving measure.


----------



## el-bo

sundrowned said:


> That would definitely be the way to go. But for me the principal of paying £600 for 2tb when I normally pay £170-190 seems prohibative. But that's just me. Maybe I'll wait for second hand.


In a laptop, it makes sense to have more internal storage to avoid loads of attachments, docks etc. while still allowing a core set of composing libraries. But for desktop use, why not just go for 1tb? It's more than enough to keep the software 'headers', while leaving all the sample/data lifting to cheaper external drives.


----------



## el-bo

aeliron said:


> Yeah, it really comes down to how much you want to keep your data "in the box", or how much external stuff you are OK with. For desktop, external seems a good cost-saving measure.


I know the temptation to have all that screaming-fast internal storage is strong  But those base prices can soon become mortgage-worthy when adding on the extras.


----------



## Pier

KEM said:


> Do I see @Pier becoming an Apple fanboy again…??


My Apple fanboi phase ended 10 years ago!


----------



## David Barber

If cost isn't an issue is there any downside - on a technical level - to just shelling out for the 8tb storage and hosting samples internally? I've always had a setup with multiple sample drives and VEP rigs but I kinda like the simplicity of everything in one little box.


----------



## KEM

Pier said:


> My Apple fanboi phase ended 10 years ago!



And now it’s making a return!!


----------



## gsilbers

David Barber said:


> If cost isn't an issue is there any downside - on a technical level - to just shelling out for the 8tb storage and hosting samples internally? I've always had a setup with multiple sample drives and VEP rigs but I kinda like the simplicity of everything in one little box.



When I bought a Mac mini and needed external hard drive I asked the same and it’s not an issue answer. Or one that I could find at least.

I ended up getting a 8tb sata ssd and an usb-c and it’s been pretty good handling samples and audio/project.

If the internal drive is m2 type ssd which is much faster then I doubt it’ll be an issue.

There hasn’t been many people out there buying 8tb m2 ssd cause of the cost. And most people upscale from 1tb slowly getting several.

But doubt it’ll be an issue.


----------



## aeliron

David Barber said:


> If cost isn't an issue is there any downside - on a technical level - to just shelling out for the 8tb storage and hosting samples internally? I've always had a setup with multiple sample drives and VEP rigs but I kinda like the simplicity of everything in one little box.


Interesting thread here: 

Post in thread 'New M1 Pro and M1 Max MacBooks!'
https://vi-control.net/community/threads/new-m1-pro-and-m1-max-macbooks.115856/post-5023170


----------



## Gaffable

davidson said:


> What's the current fastest solution for external storage? What speeds could you expect to get?


Earlier in this thread, in post #60, @David Kudell said that he's getting 2600MB/sec read/write with a Glyph Atom Pro NVMe SSD.


----------



## Pier

Gaffable said:


> Earlier in this thread, in post #60, @David Kudell said that he's getting 2600MB/sec read/write with a Glyph Atom Pro NVMe SSD.


It ends up being more expensive than Apple's internal SSDs.

BH Photo prices:

* 500GB $250
* 1TB $400
* 2TB $700
* 8TB $2,400

Apple:


----------



## David Kudell

Gaffable said:


> Earlier in this thread, in post #60, @David Kudell said that he's getting 2600MB/sec read/write with a Glyph Atom Pro NVMe SSD.


Just tested again, getting 2400 read and 1900 write but that's because I'm using 7.4TB of the 8TB, so it does slow down a bit when it gets full.

As to the question of samples on a separate drive or on the internal, that used to be an easy one - of course separate drive is better so your system drive can handle the OS and the DAW stuff. But now the internal SSD of the new MacBook Pros with the M1 Max are getting 5600 MB/sec, and the studio will likely be the same or better, so when you're dealing with that kind of speed I don't know if it even matters at that point.


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo

I see a problem when someone asks what computer you have in your studio and you answer with studio. Infinite loops could occur, or rejection of the job. Hell no.


----------



## David Kudell

Pier said:


> It ends up being more expensive than Apple's internal SSDs.
> 
> BH Photo prices:
> 
> * 500GB $250
> * 1TB $400
> * 2TB $700
> * 8TB $2,400
> 
> Apple:


Yep, although the 8TB goes on sale for $400 off every once in a while. But still. This is the price you pay for non expandable computers. If I wanted to add a fast SSD to my 2017 iMac Pro, the Glyph was the only option that would saturate the Thunderbolt 3 bus. 

I can't say if it makes that much difference though between the Glyph and a regular old SATA SSD. My reasoning was that by having a faster SSD, I could keep Kontakt's pre-buffer setting lower which uses less RAM for the samples, since it can load in the samples much quicker with a faster SSD. In practice, this is working well, I have it set to 18k instead of the default 60k. As an alternative, you could just exercise some restraint and not have so many dang sample libraries loaded, but this is something I have failed at.


----------



## Pier

David Kudell said:


> But now the internal SSD of the new MacBook Pros with the M1 Max are getting 5600 MB/sec, and the studio will likely be the same or better, so when you're dealing with that kind of speed I don't know if it even matters at that point.


For sample libraries, probably not because these type of speeds are only achievable when reading large files sequentially.


----------



## machinesworking

PeterKorcek said:


> Incredible, can't wait to watch the keynote later today.
> I am glad I waited and they finally have the option for 128 GB RAM, with M1 Ultra the performance should be bonkers - will buy after some reviews and real world tests.
> 
> I am just thinking if 4 or 8 TB - does anyone have a good source about comparing PCIe slots with NVME SSDs (Mac Pro, PC), internal Apple SSDs on these chips (M1 Ultra/Max) and external Thunderbolt 4 devices? Thanks


The internal SSDs are around 7000MB/s, as of now the fastest external enclosures for m.2 style SSDs is 2800MB/s so if drive speed is important to you, which for orchestrsl libraries IMO it is, then getting the biggest internal drive you can afford makes sense. 
Of course six months from now someone will break the 2800MB/s external drive limit.


----------



## machinesworking

Pier said:


> For sample libraries, probably not because these type of speeds are only achievable when reading large files sequentially.


Just to clarify, IMO it's important when initially loading a template or song. Drives have been fast enough for most streaming duties here since forever.


----------



## rnb_2

machinesworking said:


> The internal SSDs are around 7000MB/s, as of now the fastest external enclosures for m.2 style SSDs is 2800MB/s so if drive speed is important to you, which for orchestrsl libraries IMO it is, then getting the biggest internal drive you can afford makes sense.
> Of course six months from now someone will break the 2800MB/s external drive limit.


Technically, this has already happened, but it involves combining drives on two separate Thunderbolt 3 or 4 buses. OWC benchmarked multiple Thunderblades this way, and the new data appliance from Iodyne uses this to get 5GB/s. On a single bus, 2800MB/s is the best that current Thunderbolt can do.


----------



## Pier

machinesworking said:


> Just to clarify, IMO it's important when initially loading a template or song. Drives have been fast enough for most streaming duties here since forever.


What I meant is that it won't matter much if you're using internal or external since you certainly won't hit max SSD speed when reading samples.

Random reads (not sequential) are much slower so the 2800MB/s bus limit should be more than enough.


----------



## gsilbers

machinesworking said:


> The internal SSDs are around 7000MB/s, as of now the fastest external enclosures for m.2 style SSDs is 2800MB/s so if drive speed is important to you, which for orchestrsl libraries IMO it is, then getting the biggest internal drive you can afford makes sense.
> Of course six months from now someone will break the 2800MB/s external drive limit.




I remember having a hard time figuring out those numbers vs what i needed or its good enough .

is it like buying a ferrari and driving it in the US where speed limit doesnt go above 70.

Or is it buying a honda accord and your commute to work is on the autobahn in germany.

im using ssd sata on a usbc which mightbe about 400mb/s id say and its been pretty good.

reaching 2000mb/s might be already waaaaaaaayyyy too good? And talking about 7k might not even be part of a composers reality ?


----------



## machinesworking

Pier said:


> What I meant is that it won't matter much if you're using internal or external since you certainly won't hit max SSD speed when reading samples.
> 
> Random reads (not sequential) are much slower so the 2800MB/s bus limit should be more than enough.


 Right, basically once the library is loaded into memory and you're using it, the 7000MB/s theoretical speed isn't much use, it's loading the library or project into memory where it benefits. Its also possible there's lower latency streaming internally, but IMO if a 400MB/s 2.5" SATSA SSD can handle it just fine you're not going to notice any difference there.


----------



## Pier

machinesworking said:


> Right, basically once the library is loaded into memory and you're using it, the 7000MB/s theoretical speed isn't much use, it's loading the library or project into memory where it benefits. Its also possible there's lower latency streaming internally, but IMO if a 400MB/s 2.5" SATSA SSD can handle it just fine you're not going to notice any difference there.


When you read a big file the bytes are typically stored sequentially one after the other. This gives you the max read speed.

But sample libraries are typically composed of multiple small files. When loading a template you could potentially be reading thousands of files (if not hundreds of thousands). This gives you the worst performance possible in an SSD.

To give you an idea of random vs sequential, check this benchmark comparing sequential vs random for a NVME drive:






https://ssd.userbenchmark.com/SpeedTest/1363185/WD-BLACK-SN850-2TB


----------



## machinesworking

Pier said:


> When you read a big file the bytes are typically stored sequentially one after the other. This gives you the max read speed.
> 
> But sample libraries are typically composed of multiple small files. When loading a template you could potentially be reading thousands of files (if not hundreds of thousands). This gives you the worst performance possible in an SSD.
> 
> To give you an idea of random vs sequential, check this benchmark comparing sequential vs random for a NVME drive:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://ssd.userbenchmark.com/SpeedTest/1363185/WD-BLACK-SN850-2TB


Hmm? the issue here is pretty straight forward, of course real world VS projected are different, but I doubt m.2s stating 3000MB/s are telling the truth and 7000MB/s stated speeds are lying. i.e. a 7000MB/s ssd is going to have a faster random access speed as well. Plus, I don't think you're 100% accurate in your assessment that random access is how a sample library is loaded. The latency induced by loading 1500 small files VS one big one is not going to translate to 15x slower load times. I mean you can already experience this with SSDs VS HDs, or M.2 VS SSD. The speed difference in load times is transparent. Comparing with your link Samsung 980 at 3500 sequential read to a 980 Pro at 7000 sequential read, the random read is 30% faster, and I would guess in real world performance, a one minute to load on a 980 is going to load faster than the 42 seconds it would take if it's all about random read. https://ssd.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Samsung-980-Pro-NVMe-PCIe-M2-2TB-vs-Samsung-980-NVMe-PCIe-M2-1TB/m1454302vsm1488476

My point was and where I think you're right is that it's not that important when it comes to an already loaded template. The access time to samples in a project isn't really improved by a faster internal drive, since it's not really an issue anymore anyway, at least it hasn't been for me since SSDs have been a thing. 

But yeah in the bigger picture this is splitting hairs, I only have around 2700MB/s on my internal M1 Air here, my SSDs are getting 1500MB/s and that's not terrible, it just takes a little time for VEP to load.


----------



## KerrySmith

sundrowned said:


> Those ssd prices are ridiculous.
> 
> I moved from mac to pc a few years ago, but I've always missed logic. I'd consider going back for the right price. But this is not it yet.


Only if you view all SSD or NVMEs as equal. A few years ago, a chip specialist explained to me that the nature of SSDs meant that "blocks" could wear out more quickly through repeated overwriting than in an HDD, but if you're mostly reading data, they can last quite a long time. Depending on your workflow this might be a problem or not. If you're loading a bunch of sample libraries onto an SSD and leaving them there, without much actual data turnover on the drive, that's great. But if you're using an SSD for your main boot drive, and you're constantly regenerating cache files, background system processes, editing documents, emails, photo libraries, etc... you start to put a lot of wear on the SSD. Because of that reason, he explained, Apple uses more durable (and hence) expensive solid-state storage in the computers they ship with it. Apple knows that most (consumer) users will be using the hell out of their main internal drive, and that most users don't need external storage like "WE" do. The per-Gigabyte cost of the storage to the consumer might be higher than buying a drive after-market, but it's a far better option than taking the PR risk of a whole load of their machines having mass "drive" failures, when the machines storage is soldered onto the motherboard. The whole machine would have to be replaced. Multiply that by enough to be noticed as a design flaw... Of course that was pre-Apple Silicon. Now with the SOC, there's different engineering but the same principal applies - you don't want your "only" Storage/Memory/Processor failing, so you spend more on premium materials and processes to deliver the most robust product, because you CAN'T swap out just the drive. The efficiencies of an SOC can offer a lot of benefits that you won't get from modular components (assuming the software is re-written to take proper advantage of the SOC's strengths) so I understand why Apple's "Storage" price is higher than buying potentially dodgy 970 Evo Plus sticks from Amazon or New Egg. I was looking at prices with this new machine. Getting "8 TB of storage" built-in is roughly $2k more than 1TB. If I bought the 8TB worth of NVME (4x 2TB) and TB4 housing that I've been tracking for 2 years, it's about $1,500. (Of course, that's in addition to the base 1 TB of Apple storage. So, it's maybe a $500-700 difference, maybe less after I buy a TB4 cable and RAID software. So for my extra outlay I am getting everything in one box, the additional speed benefits (assuming the software is all re-coded to optimize it), better cooling benefits thanks to the SOC architecture, and being less reliant on the "will-get-hot" TB4 bus controllers inside the computer. Pretty easy decision for me. I then feel fine buying an (Two!) 8TB HDD for under $150 that I stick in my old Mac Pro tower, networked in another room, to use as Backup, and maybe another for "Archives" so that I'm only keeping my current project sessions on my actual "Internal" storage.


----------



## dflood

When I bought my current 27” iMac in late 2013 it seemed like overkill - i7 processor, 32 GB Ram, 1 TB internal SSD. It handled everything I did from graphics to 3d modelling to video and music production competently, reliably, and quietly. It’s the longest I’ve ever kept a desktop or laptop as my main machine. It only began to fail me when I started trying to make big orchestral templates in Logic. And it’s still a fantastic machine though I can’t update the OS. 

With these new Macs, since no future hardware upgrades are possible, you have to make your bet on what is going to be ‘good enough’ for the years you expect to use it. For me, that means the best part of the next decade. I'd like to do it without getting silly buying ram, GPU cores or processing power that I may never need. I think my heaviest use will still be with Logic as opposed to graphics rendering, video production, etc. 

Am I correct in assuming there’s no point in paying for the extra GPU cores in either the Max or Ultra configurations if my primary use is music production?

I don't ever expect to use networked samples like VEP. This machine has to do it all. Any thoughts on the relative value of the 64 GB Max vs going for the 128 GB Ultra considering the added cost of RAM doubling is about $2750.00 Canadian? Obviously they throw in a second CPU along with that. Just wondering if I’d ever need it?


----------



## will_m

Pier said:


> That's because the 2060 is quite a powerful dedicated desktop GPU for anything other than cutting edge gaming performance.
> 
> When you get into integrated GPU land, things are quite different.
> 
> For example I remember the myriad of issues with the last Intel Mac Mini when you tried to run a 4K monitor with it because of the integrated GPU:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit:
> 
> I also remember tons of reports with Ableton Live 10 and that Mini. People "hacked" Live so that it rendered at less FPS, or had to reduce the resolution of the monitor.
> 
> 
> 
> Live 10: 4K screens / Performance Issues - Ableton Forum



I've seen the same even when I used to have the lowest series passive dedicated GPU option. This was in context of the GPU options for the Mac Studio though. I'm not familiar with the performance but given the price of even the base spec and that it appears to be marketed towards visual creation, I would have thought the performance to be more than capable for DAW use. 

I guess that's the downside of a system like the Mac Mini, there is next to zero expandability or upgradability. You buy what you hope will last you many years, the problem being that computers depreciate in value incredibly quickly.


----------



## gsilbers

will_m said:


> I've seen the same even when I used to have the lowest series passive dedicated GPU option. This was in context of the GPU options for the Mac Studio though. I'm not familiar with the performance but given the price of even the base spec and that it appears to be marketed towards visual creation, I would have thought the performance to be more than capable for DAW use.
> 
> I guess that's the downside of a system like the Mac Mini, there is next to zero expandability or upgradability. You buy what you hope will last you many years, the problem being that computers depreciate in value incredibly quickly.




i was able to upgrade the ram on the intel verison. 

i wonder if the internal ssd of the studio can be changed. my guess its not..


----------



## rnb_2

dflood said:


> When I bought my current 27” iMac in late 2013 it seemed like overkill - i7 processor, 32 GB Ram, 1 TB internal SSD. It handled everything I did from graphics to 3d modelling to video and music production competently, reliably, and quietly. It’s the longest I’ve ever kept a desktop or laptop as my main machine. It only began to fail me when I started trying to make big orchestral templates in Logic. And it’s still a fantastic machine though I can’t update the OS.
> 
> With these new Macs, since no future hardware upgrades are possible, you have to make your bet on what is going to be ‘good enough’ for the years you expect to use it. For me, that means the best part of the next decade. I'd like to do it without getting silly buying ram, GPU cores or processing power that I may never need. I think my heaviest use will still be with Logic as opposed to graphics rendering, video production, etc.
> 
> Am I correct in assuming there’s no point in paying for the extra GPU cores in either the Max or Ultra configurations if my primary use is music production?
> 
> I don't ever expect to use networked samples like VEP. This machine has to do it all. Any thoughts on the relative value of the 64 GB Max vs going for the 128 GB Ultra considering the added cost of RAM doubling is about $2750.00 Canadian? Obviously they throw in a second CPU along with that. Just wondering if I’d ever need it?


When the MacBook Pros came out last year, the feeling was that the only reasons to upgrade to the Max for composers was needing more than 2 external displays, or needing more than 32GB of RAM. Since the Mac Studio starts at the Max, the only reason to go to the Ultra is for the RAM. If you currently have 32GB, I think you'd be fine going to 64GB on the 24-core GPU Max.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Go big or go home I say. Ultra is future proofing for many years. My i9 iMac is just over a year old but I'm still considering Ultra w/ 128GB + the new display. TBD on the internal storage. May wait until the summer though.


----------



## will_m

gsilbers said:


> i was able to upgrade the ram on the intel verison.
> 
> i wonder if the internal ssd of the studio can be changed. my guess its not..


It'll be the same as the other M1 models so afraid not. I'd guess that most people buy the storage and RAM that will serve their needs for several years, the problem is that you pay the 'bleeding edge' price.


----------



## dflood

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Go big or go home I say. Ultra is future proofing for many years. My i9 iMac is just over a year old but I'm still considering Ultra w/ 128GB + the new display. TBD on the internal storage. May wait until the summer though.


I'm currently leaning towards the 8TB internal and just using a big cheap and slow mechanical drive for backup. It reduces the clutter, complexity, and cost of connecting and maintaining a bunch of peripherals.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

dflood said:


> I'm currently leaning towards the 8TB internal and just using a big cheap and slow mechanical drive for backup. It reduces the clutter, complexity, and cost of connecting and maintaining a bunch of peripherals.


That’s true though I remember reading that separating your samples from your system drive was better for performance? The other benefit is when you upgrade next, you can just unplug and then plug in your peripheral drives instead of worrying about transferring from one 8TB drive to the next one.


----------



## colony nofi

machinesworking said:


> Hmm? the issue here is pretty straight forward, of course real world VS projected are different, but I doubt m.2s stating 3000MB/s are telling the truth and 7000MB/s stated speeds are lying. i.e. a 7000MB/s ssd is going to have a faster random access speed as well. Plus, I don't think you're 100% accurate in your assessment that random access is how a sample library is loaded. The latency induced by loading 1500 small files VS one big one is not going to translate to 15x slower load times. I mean you can already experience this with SSDs VS HDs, or M.2 VS SSD. The speed difference in load times is transparent. Comparing with your link Samsung 980 at 3500 sequential read to a 980 Pro at 7000 sequential read, the random read is 30% faster, and I would guess in real world performance, a one minute to load on a 980 is going to load faster than the 42 seconds it would take if it's all about random read. https://ssd.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Samsung-980-Pro-NVMe-PCIe-M2-2TB-vs-Samsung-980-NVMe-PCIe-M2-1TB/m1454302vsm1488476
> 
> My point was and where I think you're right is that it's not that important when it comes to an already loaded template. The access time to samples in a project isn't really improved by a faster internal drive, since it's not really an issue anymore anyway, at least it hasn't been for me since SSDs have been a thing.
> 
> But yeah in the bigger picture this is splitting hairs, I only have around 2700MB/s on my internal M1 Air here, my SSDs are getting 1500MB/s and that's not terrible, it just takes a little time for VEP to load.



Hm...
So unfortunately speeds of loading for kontakt are only somewhat loosely correlated to max speeds of drives. Kontakt has some rather - er - interesting legacy systems for how it loads sample libraries. (its a different story for real-time playback once the buffers are used).
This means that you get no where NEAR the max speeds of the drives when doing the initial loads for libraries. And it makes the difference between a SATA3 SSD and an NVME drive 10x as fast far less important than you might think. 
Some other samplers are more efficient at their preloads. None get anywhere CLOSE to max speeds.
Sometimes we get distracted by shiny numbers.


----------



## KEM

If the Knifonium actually runs on the M1 Ultra I’ll be VERY happy, but I’m not getting my hopes up…


----------



## machinesworking

colony nofi said:


> Hm...
> So unfortunately speeds of loading for kontakt are only somewhat loosely correlated to max speeds of drives. Kontakt has some rather - er - interesting legacy systems for how it loads sample libraries. (its a different story for real-time playback once the buffers are used).
> This means that you get no where NEAR the max speeds of the drives when doing the initial loads for libraries. And it makes the difference between a SATA3 SSD and an NVME drive 10x as fast far less important than you might think.
> Some other samplers are more efficient at their preloads. None get anywhere CLOSE to max speeds.
> Sometimes we get distracted by shiny numbers.


 Sure, code can slow down the process, but faster drives do help. This isn't really arguable. I can test this and see it in action, I have the same library on an internal 1500MB/s M.2, and on an external SSD via USB3 at 330MB/s. It's the same CPU and library. If random writes and Kontakts load code are really that prohibitive to load times, then it shouldn't be that much of a thing right?


----------



## tabulius

Pier said:


> It ends up being more expensive than Apple's internal SSDs.
> 
> BH Photo prices:
> 
> * 500GB $250
> * 1TB $400
> * 2TB $700
> * 8TB $2,400
> 
> Apple:


And the Apple SSD is much faster on top of that.


----------



## jcrosby

ALittleNightMusic said:


> That’s true though I remember reading that separating your samples from your system drive was better for performance? The other benefit is when you upgrade next, you can just unplug and then plug in your peripheral drives instead of worrying about transferring from one 8TB drive to the next one.


Not when the internal performs at the speed these machines do. In fact unless you get a blazing fast external RAID that were able to exceed the speed of the internal storage there's no benefit (or reason) for using a separate drive outside of Apple's high price tag, or a preference for future expandability.

Performance wise though? That's not the case, and really since PCIe, m2, etc there really hasn't been a need in terms of performance specifically. Outside of blazing fast RAID configurations this belief seems to mostly stem from the days of spinning rust, where multiple drives did indeed make sense from a performance perspective...

The bigger benefit IME is that your samples remain quarantined from internal disk failure, or a brutally bad update that might require a clean install if a job depends on it (been there/done that once already), etc...


----------



## samphony

davidson said:


> What I didnt understand and was left disappointed by was this - touting 'modularity' as an important point. They never elaborated on it and tbh, I don't see any modularity with the studio at all. I immediately thought we would be able to add our own drives, ram, maybe daisy chain units etc. Nope. So what were they meaning do you think?


Don’t forget John said that they didn’t tell us about the „Ultra Fusion“ path. So modularity might be something like a hint Who knows.


----------



## samphony

gsilbers said:


> yeah, but still the benchmark is in multicore, right? I have m1 air and still the single core and plugins like omnisphere diva etc on logic are an issue.
> i mean, its mostly a logic issue of course, unless something changed.


But maybe the single core issues can be resolved with this new era of Apple Silicon.


----------



## mat1

dflood said:


> When I bought my current 27” iMac in late 2013 it seemed like overkill - i7 processor, 32 GB Ram, 1 TB internal SSD. It handled everything I did from graphics to 3d modelling to video and music production competently, reliably, and quietly. It’s the longest I’ve ever kept a desktop or laptop as my main machine. It only began to fail me when I started trying to make big orchestral templates in Logic. And it’s still a fantastic machine though I can’t update the OS.
> 
> With these new Macs, since no future hardware upgrades are possible, you have to make your bet on what is going to be ‘good enough’ for the years you expect to use it. For me, that means the best part of the next decade. I'd like to do it without getting silly buying ram, GPU cores or processing power that I may never need. I think my heaviest use will still be with Logic as opposed to graphics rendering, video production, etc.


I think these days you’re better off with a shorter upgrade cycle rather than paying for potential future needs upfront. The base Mini Studio with 1TB looks like good value for 2200. You’ll still get good money for it if you sell+upgrade in 5yrs or so.


----------



## el-bo

jcrosby said:


> The bigger benefit IME is that your samples remain quarantined from internal disk failure, or a brutally bad update that might require a clean install if a job depends on it (been there/done that once already), etc...


And at least system cloning was possible on older systems. Pretty sure it’s not possible with AS, right?


----------



## davidson

So I just cancelled my order with the 8tb internal. I went for a 1tb instead and I'll crack on with my external drives for the foreseeable. Reason being, after looking further into it I don't think I'd see any noticeable loading time benefits with kontakt, omnisphere etc. 

Maybe one day if the kontakt devs rewrite its architecture I'll reconsider, and prices will hopefully be less eye-watering by then too. Means I've got a spare £2,400 to spend on chocolate hobnobs now too


----------



## IvanP

Since we would need to use external TB4 external storage solution, can anybody share how much noise does an SSD Dock does? 

Never used one as I've always used silent desktop computers, and I'd be worried if it would add significant noise to my writing room where I also record some stuff. 

Thanks!


----------



## davidson

IvanP said:


> Since we would need to use external TB4 external storage solution, can anybody share how much noise does an SSD Dock does?
> 
> Never used one as I've always used silent desktop computers, and I'd be worried if it would add significant noise to my writing room where I also record some stuff.
> 
> Thanks!


Would we need to use TB4 external storage? I'm planning on using my (completely silent) usb3 ssd dock.


----------



## seclusion3

With my 2017 iMac, i7 32 gigs of Ram, I have 2TB Hd onboard loaded with 256 GB partitioned for the OS, the rest for samples about 1TB.
then externals 2 TB ssd's for audio raid 0, omnisphere and some kontakt piano libraries and another external 2 TB for storage, DL's, iTunes, and a small volume as a fast OS backup.
these are always connected, with a slow WD external I connect to backup it all up before a big update.
The drives are getting close to full, have run 5+ years now, some purging would be good. I Like making volumes so that I can see, OS, Samples, Audio, Storage etc. $2200 for a HD is nuts, but also a fresh drive always is needed. For clients wanting to record, I could use one of my external cases and an a clients SSD, instead of messing with my own drives for work. Hard to get newer tech here in CR, so it’s looking like a 4 or 8 TB would be a wise choice.
Wanting to watch a tear down to see how to clean the machine. My iMac is a daunting task to clean


----------



## Drumdude2112

Is anyone NOT going 20 core (aside from budgetary restrictions of course) at this time in fear the most current software wont actually take advantage of so many cores.
IE , is having 20 cores gonnna make a huge performance difference at THIS point in juncture ?….(cause i’m ready to go 20)


----------



## davidson

Drumdude2112 said:


> Is anyone NOT going 20 core (aside from budgetary restrictions of course) at this time in fear the most current software wont actually take advantage of so many cores.
> IE , is having 20 cores gonnna make a huge performance difference at THIS point in juncture ?….(cause i’m ready to go 20)


Me. I came to the realisation last night that I need single core speed more than a super-multi, so I know I'm going to upgrade as soon as I'm given the chance (if the M2 core speed makes it worthwhile obviously). So I've gone from ordering a 20 core forever machine to a 10 core stop gap


----------



## samphony

IvanP said:


> Since we would need to use external TB4 external storage solution, can anybody share how much noise does an SSD Dock does?
> 
> Never used one as I've always used silent desktop computers, and I'd be worried if it would add significant noise to my writing room where I also record some stuff.
> 
> Thanks!


I have several thunderbolt 3 nvme enclosures in the studio filled with sabrent 4tb and sandisk pro 2tb. Zero noise.


----------



## gsilbers

el-bo said:


> And at least system cloning was possible on older systems. Pretty sure it’s not possible with AS, right?


True it’s changed a lot with Apple silicon. It just saves your system files through time machine.
and separately your user files.
Or something if that sort. 
You can split up the main drive so samples live off a different partition.
I wanted to do a restore and it these back up software like carbon copy/chronosync. And i couldn’t. 


At the same time, hard disk failure are a lot less common. 

But I think I think a separate drive, even external might be better just in case.
We deal with very large sample libraries so restoring might take longer than what Apple users normally do.


----------



## IFM

dflood said:


> I'm currently leaning towards the 8TB internal and just using a big cheap and slow mechanical drive for backup. It reduces the clutter, complexity, and cost of connecting and maintaining a bunch of peripherals.


I think I am going to cancel my 2TB order and switch to the 8tb for the same reason, one machine, no more multiple SSDs hanging off, and it's the fastest I drive I can get.

EDIT: And that's what I did. Ultra with 48 core GPU and 8tb drive. Going to put it all on the internal.


----------



## paulmatthew

I'm thinking the Mac Studio with M1 Max 10 Core 32 GPU 16 Neural Core engine with 64GB unified memory and 2 TB SSD would be enough for most hobbyists and semi professional producers. I'm waiting to hear usage and performance thoughts from real world use as they get into the hands of producers before jumping on the M1 Ultra.


----------



## el-bo

gsilbers said:


> You can split up the main drive so samples live off a different partition.


Is it still possible to make each of those partitions bootable?


----------



## IvanP

samphony said:


> I have several thunderbolt 3 nvme enclosures in the studio filled with sabrent 4tb and sandisk pro 2tb. Zero noise.


Great! Thank you! Any enclosure in particular you would recommend?


----------



## IvanP

samphony said:


> I have several thunderbolt 3 nvme enclosures in the studio filled with sabrent 4tb and sandisk pro 2tb. Zero noise.


Thank you! Any dock in particular you would recommend?


----------



## StefVR

Not really advisable to partition SSD disks. There is no benefit but once a ssd gets full it becomes slower and slower.


----------



## davidson

Stupid question time: Am I correct in thinking there aren't any issues with connecting a usb-c audio interface to one of the tb4 slots on the rear?


----------



## IFM

davidson said:


> Stupid question time: Am I correct in thinking there aren't any issues with connecting a usb-c audio interface to one of the tb4 slots on the rear?


You'll be fine.


----------



## Pier

machinesworking said:


> i.e. a 7000MB/s ssd is going to have a faster random access speed as well


Indeed but, again, the problem is bus speed.

You can get an external NVME but it will cap at 2800MB/s because of the TB bus.

BUT

If you're using it to read samples it won't matter much because you will never reach 2800MB/s when reading samples.



machinesworking said:


> I don't think you're 100% accurate in your assessment that random access is how a sample library is loaded. The latency induced by loading 1500 small files VS one big one is not going to translate to 15x slower load times.


It depends, but if you open the folders of the sample libraries you will see how many files are used.

And yeah, random access gives you dramatic speed reductions. See this benchmark on the M1 Macbook Air. When the queue depth is 1, it can go as low as 40MB/s:





Of course an NVME will have faster random access speeds vs an HDD or a SATA SSD. But, again, you're very unlikely to saturate the TB bus when reading samples.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

mat1 said:


> I think these days you’re better off with a shorter upgrade cycle rather than paying for potential future needs upfront. The base Mini Studio with 1TB looks like good value for 2200. You’ll still get good money for it if you sell+upgrade in 5yrs or so.


This is a good point. M2 will be out, then M2 Max / Ultra. Maybe sticking with the Max line is better for keeping your machine close to top of the line performance via a shorter upgrade cycle. Only issue is the RAM limit but wonder if that’s really a problem for most folks.


----------



## NoamL

dflood said:


> When I bought my current 27” iMac in late 2013 it seemed like overkill - i7 processor, 32 GB Ram, 1 TB internal SSD. It handled everything I did from graphics to 3d modelling to video and music production competently, reliably, and quietly. It’s the longest I’ve ever kept a desktop or laptop as my main machine. It only began to fail me when I started trying to make big orchestral templates in Logic. And it’s still a fantastic machine though I can’t update the OS.
> 
> With these new Macs, since no future hardware upgrades are possible, you have to make your bet on what is going to be ‘good enough’ for the years you expect to use it. For me, that means the best part of the next decade. I'd like to do it without getting silly buying ram, GPU cores or processing power that I may never need. I think my heaviest use will still be with Logic as opposed to graphics rendering, video production, etc.
> 
> Am I correct in assuming there’s no point in paying for the extra GPU cores in either the Max or Ultra configurations if my primary use is music production?
> 
> I don't ever expect to use networked samples like VEP. This machine has to do it all. Any thoughts on the relative value of the 64 GB Max vs going for the 128 GB Ultra considering the added cost of RAM doubling is about $2750.00 Canadian? Obviously they throw in a second CPU along with that. Just wondering if I’d ever need it?


If I had your priorities, I'd wait for the Mac Pro with the 2X or 4X of their modular M1Max chip, and go for a machine with at least 128 GB since it has to be futureproof.

There's a couple reasons to think about waiting for the Mac Pro version. First it might have a form factor with better cooling or something else that contributes to even longer lasting workstation quality.

And secondly, to get 128+ GB you need the two-M1Max (aka "Ultra") at least. Until people start using their Mac Studios, only the one-M1Max has actually been in the wild (in laptop form factor). So, _pace_ Apple's reputation for quality, it's an untested computer. By the time the Pro comes out, people will have reported back about their M1 Ultra experiences and you'll know if it's for you.

Right now in the Studio, the 2-chip, Ultra configuration adds two whole pounds because the cooling system is denser metal, see the article below:



Why M1 Ultra adds 2 pounds of heavy metal to Mac Studio


----------



## Mrted

Now we really need very good Thunderbolt 4 enclosure for our Nvme SSD. OWC thunderbay are not so good. We have fast computers but it takes ages to load kontakt libraries


----------



## davidson

Has anyone ever actually run any benchmarks to compare external sata vs nvme kontakt loading times?


----------



## rnb_2

el-bo said:


> Is it still possible to make each of those partitions bootable?


Interesting question. I think you can create multiple bootable volumes on the internal SSD - I believe this is how some testing is done. That won't protect against drive failure, of course, but it would offer some recourse if an update goes south. However, this probably means having multiple copies of not just the OS, but also your user data, as each OS volume is paired with a (usually invisible) Data volume.

You can also make a bootable external backup in case of a bad update, but it involves wiping the backup drive and backing up everything - there's no way to do incremental backups that are bootable any more (Bombich has a long post about it on their site). Once you create an external bootable backup, you can update the user data on it, but not the OS - you'd have to boot from the backup drive and do an OS update periodically to keep the OS current (which you could wait to do until you're happy with version stability, of course).

Because of system security, you also can't boot from an external if the internal dies, but if you're just protecting from a system update that boots but has issues, you should still be about as safe as you've been in the past. Hardware is much less prone to failure now, so anything that actually prevents booting (or even getting to the system recovery process to reinstall the OS) probably wouldn't be solved by an external bootable backup, regardless.

The OS is so much more walled off now than it used to be - it's a read-only APFS snapshot that gets mounted at boot. Everything that you install that formerly dropped files into the system Library folder now goes in a Library folder on the writable Data volume (not in the user's Library folder - that's still where it was), and the OS makes it look like everything is stored in one place (but it's all an _illusion_). It's trivial to reinstall the base OS now, as it doesn't replace (or even touch) any user files.


----------



## rnb_2

Mrted said:


> Now we really need very good Thunderbolt 4 enclosure for our Nvme SSD. OWC thunderbay are not so good. We have fast computers but it takes ages to load kontakt libraries


That's probably Kontakt, not the enclosure. You'd probably see some improvement from an NVMe RAID, but Kontakt will likely still be slower than you'd like.


----------



## rnb_2

IvanP said:


> Since we would need to use external TB4 external storage solution, can anybody share how much noise does an SSD Dock does?
> 
> Never used one as I've always used silent desktop computers, and I'd be worried if it would add significant noise to my writing room where I also record some stuff.
> 
> Thanks!


OWC's 4M2 has a pretty loud fan, unfortunately. Sonnet's new combo dock/NVMe enclosure also has a pretty small fan, so I'm curious to find out how loud it is. If you want silence, you're better off with single-drive NVMe enclosures - I've had very good luck with OWC's Envoy Express, but you won't get the full 2800MB/s unless you RAID two of them together.


----------



## resonate

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> I see a problem when someone asks what computer you have in your studio and you answer with studio. Infinite loops could occur, or rejection of the job. Hell no.


Just call her Tracy. Or Kathy. Or....


----------



## el-bo

rnb_2 said:


> Interesting question. I think you can create multiple bootable volumes on the internal SSD - I believe this is how some testing is done. That won't protect against drive failure, of course, but it would offer some recourse if an update goes south. However, this probably means having multiple copies of not just the OS, but also your user data, as each OS volume is paired with a (usually invisible) Data volume.
> 
> You can also make a bootable external backup in case of a bad update, but it involves wiping the backup drive and backing up everything - there's no way to do incremental backups that are bootable any more (Bombich has a long post about it on their site). Once you create an external bootable backup, you can update the user data on it, but not the OS - you'd have to boot from the backup drive and do an OS update periodically to keep the OS current (which you could wait to do until you're happy with version stability, of course).
> 
> Because of system security, you also can't boot from an external if the internal dies, but if you're just protecting from a system update that boots but has issues, you should still be about as safe as you've been in the past. Hardware is much less prone to failure now, so anything that actually prevents booting (or even getting to the system recovery process to reinstall the OS) probably wouldn't be solved by an external bootable backup, regardless.
> 
> The OS is so much more walled off now than it used to be - it's a read-only APFS snapshot that gets mounted at boot. Everything that you install that formerly dropped files into the system Library folder now goes in a Library folder on the writable Data volume (not in the user's Library folder - that's still where it was), and the OS makes it look like everything is stored in one place (but it's all an _illusion_). It's trivial to reinstall the base OS now, as it doesn't replace (or even touch) any user files.


Thanks for the detailed answer.

For a long time I was in the habit of maintaining system clones, using SuperDuper. The main motivation was to protect against system-drive death, but I also liked 'clearing the deck' every so often. It's a real shame that this is no longer viable.

But now that I'm about to jump into a fresh install (The last, I imagine, on this 2012 MBP), I wanted to set up two bootable partitions. One would be a pretty slimmed-down, main music partition reserved for a small suite of 1st-call instruments, and another partition which would also be for music, but would have most of the freebies and be a place to download/demo any new software etc. All sample data would be on a commonly-accessible external drive. 

Kinda depends on these new computers allowing for bootable partitions, 'cause I imagine that if it works out to be useful I'd want to take it with me into AS-ville 

Will do some research. Cheers


----------



## rnb_2

el-bo said:


> For a long time I was in the habit of maintaining system clones, using SuperDuper. The main motivation was to protect against system-drive death, but I also liked 'clearing the deck' every so often. It's a real shame that this is no longer viable.


I completely understand that feeling. When I bought my first modern Mac in 2006, after being primarily on Windows for a decade, I found the ability to do a complete, bootable backup on an external drive to be tremendously reassuring. I knew how much anxiety I had around system drive failure on Windows, and knowing that I had that layer of protection was awesome. Even with the incredible reliability of new, completely solid state machines, I do still wish that having that bootable backup was as convenient as it used to be.


----------



## cet34f

NoamL said:


> If I had your priorities, I'd wait for the Mac Pro with the 2X or 4X of their modular M1Max chip, and go for a machine with at least 128 GB since it has to be futureproof.
> 
> There's a couple reasons to think about waiting for the Mac Pro version. First it might have a form factor with better cooling or something else that contributes to even longer lasting workstation quality.
> 
> And secondly, to get 128+ GB you need the two-M1Max (aka "Ultra") at least. Until people start using their Mac Studios, only the one-M1Max has actually been in the wild (in laptop form factor). So, _pace_ Apple's reputation for quality, it's an untested computer. By the time the Pro comes out, people will have reported back about their M1 Ultra experiences and you'll know if it's for you.
> 
> Right now in the Studio, the 2-chip, Ultra configuration adds two whole pounds because the cooling system is denser metal, see the article below:
> 
> 
> 
> Why M1 Ultra adds 2 pounds of heavy metal to Mac Studio


Waiting for the Mac Pro is an interesting idea for people who are not desperate for a new computer.

Let'e take a look at the prices:

Apple is likely to offer the same or lower prices than existing Mac Pro line, so the basic model would be $5999 with 32GB Ram. Buying 128GB ram from a third party vendor costs around $600 to $800, so the total price would be $6799 or less.

The 128GB Mac Studio Ultra is $4,799, so you are paying extra $2000 for a nicer case, cooling system, upgrade availability, more ports, etc. So, yes, I thinks it's better than Mac Studio Ultra, which makes Mac Studio Ultra an awkward product.


----------



## rnb_2

Based on what we saw on Tuesday, I think we can assume that a Mac Pro would start with an M1 Ultra with a base of 64GB of RAM. I don't think we can conjecture about pricing on the Mac Pro yet, but I don't think there's anything "awkward" about the Mac Studio Ultra - the performance for the price is outstanding, and I don't think we can compare to pricing on an Intel Mac Pro in any meaningful way, as there are a ton of components in that machine that simply won't exist in an M1/M2 version.


----------



## Pier

rnb_2 said:


> Based on what we saw on Tuesday, I think we can assume that a Mac Pro would start with an M1 Ultra with a base of 64GB of RAM. I don't think we can conjecture about pricing on the Mac Pro yet, but I don't think there's anything "awkward" about the Mac Studio Ultra - the performance for the price is outstanding, and I don't think we can compare to pricing on an Intel Mac Pro in any meaningful way, as there are a ton of components in that machine that simply won't exist in an M1/M2 version.


I'm certain the next M1 chip is going to be 2 x M1 Ultra, but I wonder about the form factor of the next Mac Pro.

Would it make sense for it to be a tower when you can't really swap the RAM or GPU?

I guess some people will want to add more drives and PCIe cards. Or maybe Apple will come up with some proprietary expansion connector.


----------



## Dewdman42

rnb_2 said:


> I completely understand that feeling. When I bought my first modern Mac in 2006, after being primarily on Windows for a decade, I found the ability to do a complete, bootable backup on an external drive to be tremendously reassuring. I knew how much anxiety I had around system drive failure on Windows, and knowing that I had that layer of protection was awesome. Even with the incredible reliability of new, completely solid state machines, I do still wish that having that bootable backup was as convenient as it used to be.


CarbonCopyClone has a "legacy" mode that will basically do a clone backup...that is bootable. FYI.

The downside is that in that mode it will not do incremental back-ups. Its a backup-everything-every-time kind of backup...but you can run that every once in a while at night to an external drive and have a bootable clone.


----------



## rnb_2

Pier said:


> I'm certain the next M1 chip is going to be 2 x M1 Ultra, but I wonder about the form factor of the next Mac Pro.
> 
> Would it make sense for it to be a tower when you can't really swap the RAM or GPU?
> 
> I guess some people will want to add more drives and PCIe cards. Or maybe Apple will come up with some proprietary expansion connector.


I'm really wondering if the Mac Pro is going to be on M1. Ultra is Jade 2C-Die, so Jade 4C-Die could still be out there as M1 Extreme (or similar), but that would make the Ultra the penultimate M1, and they said that Ultra was the last of the M1 line on Tuesday. Since Ultra is 2xMax, wouldn't 2xUltra get a new name?

As for form factor of the Mac Pro, I saw someone tweet a picture saying they'd laugh if the Mac Pro was just a Mac Studio, but 2-3x taller.


----------



## gsilbers

el-bo said:


> Is it still possible to make each of those partitions bootable?


Others might know better. I remeber having tons of issue because the way to do all this stuff is different, but similar to the old ways. Maybe check a few video and articles out before diving in.


----------



## gsilbers

davidson said:


> Has anyone ever actually run any benchmarks to compare external sata vs nvme kontakt loading times?


thatd be cool to know. all this charts and numbers... but in real world scenario and how it affects us would be good to know.


----------



## Dewdman42

cet34f said:


> Waiting for the Mac Pro is an interesting idea for people who are not desperate for a new computer.
> 
> Let'e take a look at the prices:
> 
> Apple is likely to offer the same or lower prices than existing Mac Pro line, so the basic model would be $5999 with 32GB Ram. Buying 128GB ram from a third party vendor costs around $600 to $800, so the total price would be $6799 or less.
> 
> The 128GB Mac Studio Ultra is $4,799, so you are paying extra $2000 for a nicer case, cooling system, upgrade availability, more ports, etc. So, yes, I thinks it's better than Mac Studio Ultra, which makes Mac Studio Ultra an awkward product.


I like your thinking but I kind of doubt they will bring the cost of the Mac Pro down that far. But hey maybe they will. The way I figure it, I would have to spend something on the order of $500-1000 just for various external boxes in order to make a Mac studio as fully functional as my current 5,1 (albeit faster). so... a bit more for a Mac Pro, is totally not out of line at all...by a thousand or two..I'm in. But I have a feeling it will be much more then that. But let's see. Rumors are that later this year will be an announcement so we'll know soon enough the direction they are going.

Having a night or two to sit and ponder this, I am liking the Mac Studio less. I don't like that you can't change the storage on it after the fact. $2400 for 8TB? Gimme a break. I don't like that you can't change the RAM on it after the fact either. I've never liked the "mini" concept for a variety of reasons, but now its just to a whole new level. This is like a mini on steroids without any question, anyone that was reasonably happy with a mini or an iMac will be absolutely ecstatic about this one, it is a tremendous improvement for that type of user.

And I also think that the amount of money we're talking about for a loaded up M1 Ultra is kind of a lot. I don't care that it can run faster then a 2019 macPro, it lacks the ability to be modified and expanded in the future like a 2019 MacPro can be. As a so called "disposable" computer, its quite expensive if you really think about it. People will get 5 good years out of them and if they can justify $1000/year for their Mac...its a win but I think its kind of a lot for a computer that can't really be expanded in the future, like a proper tower usually can.

Anyway, I'll just wait and see for now. Its nice to see apple taking Apple Silicon to this kind of performance level...I'm very happy they are addressing power users at least for that aspect. But I just want internal drive bays and PCI slots is all, without having to pay the price of a small car.


----------



## gsilbers

Mrted said:


> Now we really need very good Thunderbolt 4 enclosure for our Nvme SSD. OWC thunderbay are not so good. We have fast computers but it takes ages to load kontakt libraries


Whys is that? 
Thunderbolt is suppose to be like 40gb/s or something crazy high. nvme seems to also be very fast. In theory it should work.


----------



## el-bo

gsilbers said:


> Others might know better. I remeber having tons of issue because the way to do all this stuff is different, but similar to the old ways. Maybe check a few video and articles out before diving in.


Thanks! 

I did just start looking into it, but then gave it up. Ultimately, I need to prioritise the workflow that suits me now, rather than the future. My next Mac might even still end up being Intel-based. Either way, I'll deal with all of that when I have to...


----------



## Virtuoso

The Mac Pro is for people who need a shit ton of memory (high end systems now can address 4TB rather than the paltry 128GB of the Mac Studio!) and expandability for multiple GPUs (Octane/Redshift) and fast storage. I'd be surprised if the Mac Pro is as basic as simply 2xM1 Ultras.

I also wonder whether the current Mac Pro will be upgradable. It seems a shame that they went to all the trouble of creating the new case design/airflow/modules etc only to dump it after one version. You'd have thought they learned that lesson from the 2013 Mac Pro.


----------



## gsilbers

cet34f said:


> Waiting for the Mac Pro is an interesting idea for people who are not desperate for a new computer.
> 
> Let'e take a look at the prices:
> 
> Apple is likely to offer the same or lower prices than existing Mac Pro line, so the basic model would be $5999 with 32GB Ram. Buying 128GB ram from a third party vendor costs around $600 to $800, so the total price would be $6799 or less.
> 
> The 128GB Mac Studio Ultra is $4,799, so you are paying extra $2000 for a nicer case, cooling system, upgrade availability, more ports, etc. So, yes, I thinks it's better than Mac Studio Ultra, which makes Mac Studio Ultra an awkward product.




I really doubt there will be an apple silicon mac pro. I know for sure there will be a new Intel mac pro as thats something mentioned by tim and others in mac videos and interviews. But a apple silicon mac pro seems unnecessary imo.

There is little need for their client base to use PCIE cards if the apple silicon is beating a lot of systems with high end graphics cards and audio interfaces dont really need pcie connection with thunderbolt now around. As well as other pcie case uses around. Heck, we even know they tried before with the trashcan to eliminate internal expansion.

By the time the new mac pro intel comes out and then M2 chips that will be faster and better, having pcie or other internal expansion will become obsolete for most of apples consumers.

As for the intel mac pro price, itll be up to intel on how they want to price their xeon processors.


----------



## gsilbers

Virtuoso said:


> The Mac Pro is for people who need a shit ton of memory (high end systems now can address 4TB rather than the paltry 128GB of the Mac Studio!) and expandability for multiple GPUs (Octane/Redshift) and fast storage. I'd be surprised if the Mac Pro is as basic as simply 2xM1 Ultras.
> 
> I also wonder whether the current Mac Pro will be upgradable. It seems a shame that they went to all the trouble of creating the new case design/airflow/modules etc only to dump it after one version. You'd have thought they learned that lesson from the 2013 Mac Pro.


That design and specially airflow was to address some very hot intel chips and pcie for graphics cards. 
with apple silicon and ultra it bascially nails a ton of high end specs for most apple users. 
Apple still needs to release their intel mac pro update which will last several more years. although with the huge prices vs what the studio has done, i think the point of that mac pro will be just to shame intel lol. 

Anything else high end might be too specific for apple to be competing against all the different component manufacturers. more ram, or more gpu, or more cpu etc. 
And i dont know much about cpu design but im guessing having a system on a chip that already has memory, cpu, gpu etc and then having to interface with external gpu might be difficult , but again.. no idea. 

Those huge ram server designs indeed would be cool for apple to do but google and amazon and others already looking to make their own chips and designs. And the mac studio for the size and money and specs, might be good for small to medium size server configs for some companies. 

But you might be right, a 2x ultra doesnt seem it would be dificult for apple to imagine as they metinoed modular approach. but it cold just be a simple "mac studio pro" and its either slightly bigger or the same chassis. 
mac cube anyone?


----------



## Michael Antrum

Well I've been waiting for this machine for a very long time indeed, and now it's here I'm kind of paralysed with indecision. I'm currently on a 5,1 that I've tricked out over the years, and I'm very glad I didn't jump at the 2019 Mac Pro.

My issue is the Ram. As far as I can see, the CPU in the base model is more than enough for composing duties, however 64 gb RAM for orchestral work ? 

But the cost of going up to 128 GB Ram would effectively end up being over £ 2000. Sure, you are getting more CPU, but it's CPU power I probably wouldn't need. Hmmmm

I suppose the best thing to do is sit tight, and wait for people to start posting their experiences with the new machines, but I would like to get one on order.

I shall reluctantly sit tight and see what transpires when the machines start arriving in people's hands....



gsilbers said:


> I really doubt there will be an apple silicon mac pro. I know for sure there will be a new Intel mac pro as thats something mentioned by tim and others in mac videos and interviews. But a apple silicon mac pro seems unnecessary imo.


I see what you are saying, but Apple have already stated there will be one at the end of the recent event. I wonder if there will be some kind of hybrid off-CPU expandable RAM in the Mac Pro. 

It's very rare for Apple to hint at upcoming releases, so I'm pretty sure they wouldn't do this unless they were well along with it....


----------



## mat1

Dewdman42 said:


> And I also think that the amount of money we're talking about for a loaded up M1 Ultra is kind of a lot. I don't care that it can run faster then a 2019 macPro, it lacks the ability to be modified and expanded in the future like a 2019 MacPro can be. As a so called "disposable" computer, its quite expensive if you really think about it. People will get 5 good years out of them and if they can justify $1000/year for their Mac...its a win but I think its kind of a lot for a computer that can't really be expanded in the future, like a proper tower usually can.



I'm not sure Apple will let you save any money with upgrades. They'll charge such a premium it'll only be worth it to people that really need the Pcie slots (assuming they keep those at all).

I would guess by the time most people would be thinking about adding more ram their CPU will be getting long in the tooth anyway.


----------



## Dewdman42

Michael Antrum said:


> My issue is the Ram. As far as I can see, the CPU in the base model is more than enough for composing duties, however 64 gb RAM for orchestral work ?



128 would be better, but probably 64 is actually good enough. You can probably use lower preload settings, with faster CPU, which lowers the RAM use, etc. I am like you though, I'd prefer more... But what I don't like is we have to order it on day one for an extremely high apple ram price. 




Michael Antrum said:


> I suppose the best thing to do is sit tight, and wait for people to start posting their experiences with the new machines, but I would like to get one on order.



I think patience is a good idea. I really don't think people should get so caught up in the gotta-have-the-latest-thing craze. Is your 5,1 still serving you well? Do you really need to shell out thousands of dollars just to have the new one? I say get it when you really need it, when the 5,1 truly isn't serving you any longer. A lot will happen between now and then...you will either have better things too choose from compared to now, or able to buy stuff on the used market for less money.




Michael Antrum said:


> I shall reluctantly sit tight and see what transpires when the machines start arriving in people's hands....



I Concur.




Michael Antrum said:


> I see what you are saying, but Apple have already stated there will be one at the end of the recent event. I wonder if there will be some kind of hybrid off-CPU expandable RAM in the Mac Pro.
> 
> It's very rare for Apple to hint at upcoming releases, so I'm pretty sure they wouldn't do this unless they were well along with it....



There will be an Apple Silicon MacPro. What exactly it will be, we don't know until it comes out. Apple already said a long time ago, they want all their line to be on Apple Silicon.


----------



## Virtuoso

They have until the end of 2022 to complete their stated transition of all Apple computers to Apple Silicon, which they said would include the Mac Pro. They also said during the keynote that the M1 Ultra was the final member of the M1 family.

I expect there's a new chipset intended for the Mac Pro with much higher memory potential - even 256GB (2X M1 Ultras) will seem like a joke to the people working on Marvel films and Apple wants those kind of people on board for the halo trickledown effect.


----------



## charlieclouser

I bet there will indeed be a speed-bump-upgrade to the existing Mac Pro, and it will probably be sold alongside the AS Mac Pro (or whatever they call the "more than the Mac Studio" machine) for a while at least, like they're doing with the Intel Mac Mini right now. This will cater to users who do need ludicrous amounts of RAM, or use legacy software that requires Intel, need to run Windows for cross-platform development, or use exotic PCIe cards for high-end video / data capture etc.

Whether the AS Mac Pro will even have PCIe slots is a big mystery. I would not be surprised (or upset) if it did not, and if Apple forced people to use an external TB chassis to connect PCIe cards. Even Avid is moving away from PCIe for all but the biggest HDX systems, and the next revision of their dedicated DSP solutions may be like their Carbon box which essentially has a single HDX card's worth of DSP inside, and connects to the host computer via Cat5. So I would not be surprised if the next Avid stuff is essentially an audio interface AND the equivalent of a TB chassis, with expandable slots to hold a non-PCIe version of the the HDX cards so that users could scale up to the equivalent of a 3-card HDX system (and beyond) and connect it to any Mac, from a laptop to the big guys, with a single cable. This makes a LOT of sense because they could sell big rigs to people without forcing them to buy a $20k computer to host it.

I also doubt that any AS machine will allow old-style RAM sticks, and you'll be stuck, for life, with whatever amount of RAM you specify at the time of purchase. Old-style RAM will largely negate the speed benefits of "unified memory" and would probably also prevent sharing of video and system RAM. So that may be a no-go. Maybe they'll come out with some hybrid solution that uses 256gigs of on-chip RAM in addition to four sticks of old-style RAM that can not be used as GPU memory, but even that is iffy. Maybe their next top-of-the-line chip won't be simply a four-die, "double M1Ultra" but will actually be something totally new bonkers chip so we're not just doubling and quadrupling the M1max to get more RAM and CPU power. Then they could break away from the "RAM comes in 32gig bricks" thing and go bonkers for high end users. Fingers crossed.

I am still on a 12-core cylinder with 64gig RAM and it's running fast and smooth, so I will wait until the last chapter is written before I decide on a Mac Studio or whatever comes next. But we all know I'm going to buy whatever comes next, even if the Mac Studio is more than enough for my needs, because I'm stupid like that!

(I predict the next machine to come in at no less than $4,999 base price and no more than $9,999 top price)


----------



## Pier

rnb_2 said:


> and they said that Ultra was the last of the M1 line on Tuesday


Oh missed that!



rnb_2 said:


> I saw someone tweet a picture saying they'd laugh if the Mac Pro was just a Mac Studio, but 2-3x taller.


We may be following the same people on Twitter 😂


----------



## Dewdman42

They are gonna ship a macPro. I agree, its up in the air whether it will be upgradable or have PCI. I really think Apple is trying to move away from any possibility of upgrading anything. They want disposable computers that people are compelled to recycle into newer ones every couple years. That has been hugely profitable for them in the iPhone and iPad markets.

Most consumers will be quite happy with this as most consumers don't ever upgrade anything. and I think a lot of musicians will be quite happy with something like the Mac Studio with 64gb and probably never upgrade anything. They'll just use it about 3 years...and then Apple will be saying that the M4 is so incredibly better, its time you upgrade! and you will because of some new feature they will build into MacOs that only works with the M4.


----------



## Virtuoso

charlieclouser said:


> I predict the next machine to come in at no less than $4,999 base price and no more than $9,999 top price


The Mac Studio with 'only' 128GB is already $8k fully loaded, so I think the top figure for the Mac Pro will be WELL above $10k.


----------



## Virtuoso

Dewdman42 said:


> I really think Apple is trying to move away from any possibility of upgrading anything.


Sure for consumer products, but the 2019 Mac Pro was a total reversal of that strategy from the 2013 Mac Pro.


----------



## Dewdman42

Oh I agree with you, I was happy to see them do that, but not the insane price is all. But they will continue the disposable thing for all the reasons I already stated...and for those few people that want an upgradable computer, if anything, you will have to pay through the nose for it. That's the future for apple.


----------



## gsilbers

Dewdman42 said:


> They are gonna ship a macPro. I agree, its up in the air whether it will be upgradable or have PCI. I really think Apple is trying to move away from any possibility of upgrading anything. They want disposable computers that people are compelled to recycle into newer ones every couple years. That has been hugely profitable for them in the iPhone and iPad markets.
> 
> Most consumers will be quite happy with this as most consumers don't ever upgrade anything. and I think a lot of musicians will be quite happy with something like the Mac Studio with 64gb and probably never upgrade anything. They'll just use it about 3 years...and then Apple will be saying that the M4 is so incredibly better, its time you upgrade! and you will because of some new feature they will build into MacOs that only works with the M4.


I also see this scenario. Basically almost like a new car lease. pay monthly for 2-4 years and get the new one model and keep paying apple 200-300 bucks a month forever. Thats what they do with the iPhone, and was surprised when i wanted to pay it off early (paying 3 months so its mine mine) and the apple phone lady said if i did ill be loosing my chance to a free upgrade, keep paying the same price monthly. 

And seeing that they tried to get rid of the pcie with the trashcan i doubt they want to have pcie in the future.


----------



## gsilbers

Virtuoso said:


> Sure for consumer products, but the 2019 Mac Pro was a total reversal of that strategy from the 2013 Mac Pro.



my guess its there was a team making the 2019 mac pro and another making the apple silicon chip at similar times and both ideas at the time made sense. if AS fails they continue with mac pro for power and AS for ipad mac air. 
now that AS kicked ass, mac pro days might be numbered or envisioned into something else. As it used to be the main computers used for "studios"


----------



## Dewdman42

gsilbers said:


> I also see this scenario. Basically almost like a new car lease. pay monthly for 2-4 years and get the new one model and keep paying apple 200-300 bucks a month forever. Thats what they do with the iPhone, and was surprised when i wanted to pay it off early (paying 3 months so its mine mine) and the apple phone lady said if i did ill be loosing my chance to a free upgrade, keep paying the same price monthly.



Don't forget about AppleCare.



gsilbers said:


> And seeing that they tried to get rid of the pcie with the trashcan i doubt they want to have pcie in the future.


Well as someone pointed out and I tend to agree, they realized a big mistake with the trashcan and brought back the 2019 Mac Pro with PCI for a reason. I tend to think there will be a MacPro with PCI slots and Apple Silicon inside and it will be rad, but it will cost a fortune.


----------



## gsilbers

im looking at mac pro 2019 videos and im just not seeing any reason for the AS version to be this big. 

I think it will be a square version of the trashcan. with no pcie and where it can have the m1 extreme, or the m2 ultra or whatever. plus expansion for ssd and thats it.


----------



## David Kudell

I’m saving up for the Apple silicon Mac Pro for sure, with 256GB of RAM. I agree 100% with Charlie that I don’t think it will have old fashioned RAM stick slots, because of the way the RAM is integrated on the silicon I don’t see how they pull it off. If they put those slots in there it seems like trying to put old tech in there and that’s not what Apple usually does.

I also don’t need PCI cards. Again, old tech. The only thing I would like is some NVME slots for extra SSDs. But doesn’t that even seem kind of dated now, when you could get 8TB or even 16TB just built right in?

Maybe the next Mac Pro is just like a 2X M1 Ultra with up to 16TB SSD, 256GB of RAM, 8 Thunderbolt 4 ports, USB-c, support for like 8 displays, HDMI 2.1, 25gigabit Ethernet in a form factor twice the size of the Mac Studio?


----------



## David Kudell

Speaking of AppleCare, I saw a video that said you can pay $60 a year to cover the Mac Studio and can continue that indefinitely if you want, which is pretty awesome if you just want to not worry about your investment.


----------



## gsilbers

Dewdman42 said:


> Don't forget about AppleCare.
> 
> 
> Well as someone pointed out and I tend to agree, they realized a big mistake with the trashcan and brought back the 2019 Mac Pro with PCI for a reason. I tend to think there will be a MacPro with PCI slots and Apple Silicon inside and it will be rad, but it will cost a fortune.



maybe in 2013 this sort of non pcie thinking was too premature as they had to rely on exxternal gpu companies and cpu which the pc counterpart was already more suceesful. 

And the way apple silicon works it might be hard to incorporate external gpus but maybe for m2. and thats the reason mac pros where not released yet. apple is taking its time seeing how these m1 are being accepted and used. 
And now how much of the video profesionals that used to rely on mac pro switch over to studio. And if alll the review mentioend that the gpu on the silicon is more than good for high end tv and video production. 

I think apple is trying to change poeples minds on the philosophy of what they need to get the job done and removing aftermarket components out of the equation... and not only for profit but also so they arenot competing 1:1 with window pc makers who are very vocal about PC being cheaper and apple tax this etc.
With pc parts it was easy to see apples markup... now itll be hard.


----------



## KEM

David Kudell said:


> Speaking of AppleCare, I saw a video that said you can pay $60 a year to cover the Mac Studio and can continue that indefinitely if you want, which is pretty awesome if you just want to not worry about your investment.



Yeah it’s a great deal, I never buy a warranty unless it’s lifetime, so this being a year to year thing is great and totally worth buying into


----------



## gsilbers

David Kudell said:


> Speaking of AppleCare, I saw a video that said you can pay $60 a year to cover the Mac Studio and can continue that indefinitely if you want, which is pretty awesome if you just want to not worry about your investment.


that seems better. what a pain to pay that much for apple care and not if ill use it. 60 is ok. most likley i wont use it but just in case, like an insurance .


----------



## gsilbers

David Kudell said:


> I’m saving up for the Apple silicon Mac Pro for sure, with 256GB of RAM. I agree 100% with Charlie that I don’t think it will have old fashioned RAM stick slots, because of the way the RAM is integrated on the silicon I don’t see how they pull it off. If they put those slots in there it seems like trying to put old tech in there and that’s not what Apple usually does.
> 
> I also don’t need PCI cards. Again, old tech. The only thing I would like is some NVME slots for extra SSDs. But doesn’t that even seem kind of dated now, when you could get 8TB or even 16TB just built right in?
> 
> Maybe the next Mac Pro is just like a 2X M1 Ultra with up to 16TB SSD, 256GB of RAM, 8 Thunderbolt 4 ports, USB-c, support for like 8 displays, HDMI 2.1, 25gigabit Ethernet in a form factor twice the size of the Mac Studio?



twice the size of the studio is roughly the same size as the trashcan pro 

so a recangle version chasis like the studio, with the front holes of the new mac pro

or this


----------



## davidson

David Kudell said:


> Speaking of AppleCare, I saw a video that said you can pay $60 a year to cover the Mac Studio and can continue that indefinitely if you want, which is pretty awesome if you just want to not worry about your investment.


I didnt see that option in the UK. I wonder if its not available here?


----------



## David Barber

Would I literally be flushing $1k down the drain if I went with the Ultra 64-core GPU over the 48-core? It's my understanding that right now, more GPU power isn't that beneficial for music production. But could that change in the next few years? Is it even conceivable that future updates to DAWS, Kontakt etc could make use of more GPU power? I mean obviously GPUs are used for all sorts of applications for which they weren't designed (mining, machine learning etc). I'm usually someone who just gets the best available at the time but I won't if there's literally no benefit.


----------



## KEM

David Barber said:


> Would I literally be flushing $1k down the drain if I went with the Ultra 64-core GPU over the 48-core? It's my understanding that right now, more GPU power isn't that beneficial for music production. But could that change in the next few years? Is it even conceivable that future updates to DAWS, Kontakt etc could make use of more GPU power? I mean obviously GPUs are used for all sorts of applications for which they weren't designed (mining, machine learning etc). I'm usually someone who just gets the best available at the time but I won't if there's literally no benefit.



It’s a waste of money


----------



## jcrosby

rnb_2 said:


> Interesting question. I think you can create multiple bootable volumes on the internal SSD - I believe this is how some testing is done. That won't protect against drive failure, of course, but it would offer some recourse if an update goes south. However, this probably means having multiple copies of not just the OS, but also your user data, as each OS volume is paired with a (usually invisible) Data volume.
> 
> You can also make a bootable external backup in case of a bad update, but it involves wiping the backup drive and backing up everything - there's no way to do incremental backups that are bootable any more (Bombich has a long post about it on their site). Once you create an external bootable backup, you can update the user data on it, but not the OS - you'd have to boot from the backup drive and do an OS update periodically to keep the OS current (which you could wait to do until you're happy with version stability, of course).
> 
> Because of system security, you also can't boot from an external if the internal dies, but if you're just protecting from a system update that boots but has issues, you should still be about as safe as you've been in the past. Hardware is much less prone to failure now, so anything that actually prevents booting (or even getting to the system recovery process to reinstall the OS) probably wouldn't be solved by an external bootable backup, regardless.
> 
> The OS is so much more walled off now than it used to be - it's a read-only APFS snapshot that gets mounted at boot. Everything that you install that formerly dropped files into the system Library folder now goes in a Library folder on the writable Data volume (not in the user's Library folder - that's still where it was), and the OS makes it look like everything is stored in one place (but it's all an _illusion_). It's trivial to reinstall the base OS now, as it doesn't replace (or even touch) any user files.


The easiest way to handle a scenario like this is to either enable snapshots in CCC, or use Time machine. (AFAIK snapshots are enabled in time machine by default). The snapshot lets you roll back from a bad update, where for example Apple breaks something major. (I had this happen with core audio on my 2018 MBP).... The upside is that the snapshot is stored on the local disk so a rollback is super fast...

The irony about snapshots is that they eat a ton of disk space. So depending on internal disk size the best way to work with them is to enable them only before/after you do an OS update. Then test the update to make sure nothing critical broke... Once you determine the update's good you can delete and disable snapshots, and recover the space reserved for them... CCC makes this easier and more flexible than Time Machine.... (By quite a large margin)...

It's something everyone should at least know about. Especially as this seems to be one of the sources of people previously having problems with Native Access not having enough space due to snapshots slowly filling up the disk... (One of the reasons I kind of hate Time Machine... You have to go through this dance of periodically disabling then reenabling automatic backups.... In CCC you can specify which snapshots you want to delete, and keep others around if necessary.)

Basically they're great quick rollback points if you get in the habit of toggling them before an update, but can eat up disk space pretty aggressively is left enabled by default.






(11:42 is where they explain the process for restoring from a previous OS version, before an update)...


----------



## Shad0wLandsUK

KEM said:


> It’s a waste of money


You seem so certain with no evidence!?

Which bothers me a little...


----------



## Grilled Cheese

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> You seem so certain with no evidence!?
> 
> Which bothers me a little...


It’s a waste of money. X2


----------



## aeliron

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> You seem so certain with no evidence!?
> 
> Which bothers me a little...


Unless it motivates you to start doing video work … ?


----------



## Dewdman42

David Kudell said:


> I’m saving up for the Apple silicon Mac Pro for sure, with 256GB of RAM. I agree 100% with Charlie that I don’t think it will have old fashioned RAM stick slots, because of the way the RAM is integrated on the silicon I don’t see how they pull it off. If they put those slots in there it seems like trying to put old tech in there and that’s not what Apple usually does.



PCI isn't old tech. I hear you that you don't use it. But its very much alive and well and progressing. Not old tech. Apple is just deciding not to use it in their consumer products.




David Kudell said:


> I also don’t need PCI cards. Again, old tech. The only thing I would like is some NVME slots for extra SSDs. But doesn’t that even seem kind of dated now, when you could get 8TB or even 16TB just built right in?



PCI would let you expand into the next generation memory when it comes out, etc.. NVMe or whatever.. That's the point. By the way, for the Mac studio its $2400 to get the 8TB drive built into it. Not upgradable later, though someone may figure out how to wreck your warranty and do it anyway. Can you even imagine how expensive it would be to have 16TB of SSD storage from Apple? No thanks, for that much you will be far better off using external storage.... unless of course they actually deliver us a real tower with drive bays inside.


----------



## Dewdman42

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> You seem so certain with no evidence!?
> 
> Which bothers me a little...


I *THINK* its a waste of money also. But of course, one good reason to be patient on this is to wait and see if any 48 core GPU users have any problems... heheh.


----------



## David Kudell

Dewdman42 said:


> PCI isn't old tech. I hear you that you don't use it. But its very much alive and well and progressing. Not old tech. Apple is just deciding not to use it in their consumer products.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PCI would let you expand into the next generation memory when it comes out, etc.. NVMe or whatever.. That's the point. By the way, for the Mac studio its $2400 to get the 8TB drive built into it. Not upgradable later, though someone may figure out how to wreck your warranty and do it anyway. Can you even imagine how expensive it would be to have 16TB of SSD storage from Apple? No thanks, for that much you will be far better off using external storage.... unless of course they actually deliver us a real tower with drive bays inside.


Yes good points. Although I actually think the $2400 is not bad for the speeds you get for the internal, what is it, like 7000MB/sec? Looking at the PCI options to get similar speeds and they’re really not much cheaper, I’m seeing like $1850, but then you’re dealing with RAID and 4-8 times increased failure rates potentially depending on the number of drives you RAID.

On the other hand the one that RAIDs 8 SSDs for 26,000 MB/sec, now that would be fun.









OWC SSD Upgrade Kits For Mac Pro (2019 - Current)


Get everything you need to upgrade your current model Mac Pro for a total system performance and capacity boost. All OWC SSDs backed by a lifetime warranty.




eshop.macsales.com


----------



## samphony

David Kudell said:


> Speaking of AppleCare, I saw a video that said you can pay $60 a year to cover the Mac Studio and can continue that indefinitely if you want, which is pretty awesome if you just want to not worry about your investment.


that’s what I’ve got with the MacBook M1max.


----------



## Flyo

How 64gb on Max MacBooks handle big orchestral sessions right now? The studio line comes form that set… so, 64gb could’ve more capable with ram than a i9 intel iMac with 72gb? for example


----------



## Virtuoso

David Kudell said:


> On the other hand the one that RAIDs 8 SSDs for 26,000 MB/sec, now that would be fun.


The NVMe RAIDs are great for video editing - I use one myself - but they're actually slower for sample loading as you're dealing with tens of thousands of tiny audio files rather than one huge contiguous video file. That carries a processing overhead in a RAID. For audio, you're better off splitting your libraries across multiple NVMe drives than RAIDing them together.


----------



## colony nofi

machinesworking said:


> Sure, code can slow down the process, but faster drives do help. This isn't really arguable. I can test this and see it in action, I have the same library on an internal 1500MB/s M.2, and on an external SSD via USB3 at 330MB/s. It's the same CPU and library. If random writes and Kontakts load code are really that prohibitive to load times, then it shouldn't be that much of a thing right?


Test it for yourself. We've done exhausted testing of this over a period of 18 months or so on a bunch of different drives. And looked right into what was going on (which came about after @tack did some wonderful testing himself into what kontakt is doing.)
Turns out (the simple version) is that kontakt is repeatedly opening and closing the files over and over again, rather than reading in larger blocks. This severely impacts load speeds, so that for instance a 800MB/s drive will actually read at an equivalent 120MB/s for kontakt preload. And a 3000MB/s drive will actually read in at approx 185MB/s. (There are variations between kontakt patches for a bunch of other reasons. We ended up making a suite of "test only" kontakt instruments for our own benchmarking purposes - which also showed that different styles of instruments read with different efficiencies.

But the long and the short of it is, YES - NVME drives are amazing. But kontakt inefficiencies are not allowing load times to scale according to speed differences. 

I have not yet been able to run tests on the M1 16" MBP we have here (8TB version) - but I'm pretty sure I know where it will end up on our graphs, and it isn't anywhere near the drive speeds seen on speed tests.

(Also - its worth looking at how speed tests work... and how the size of the chunks being read/written effect things massively. Blackmagic speed test is cool and all, but won't tell u much about your real world experience for audio - except that anything above 500MB/s is fast, and probably fast enough.)

And of course - most of this is mute for folk who don't use MASSIVE templates. Just loading in a 60 track TV score project on a modern system isn't going to slow you down too much, even if you have a few crashes a day. But if you have old school massive templates, loading times DO make a big difference. 

There's of course even more ways around it - having the largest templates off loaded to a VEPro instance which are rock solid / need only be launched once per day when you make your morning coffee. 

Personally I don't use large templates - and either load in groups of pre-defined tracks, or just make a template for a project thats usually 150 tracks or less. And on modern systems, the inefficiencies don't bother me. But it certainly bothers other composers we work with, and being a composer who enjoys working in tech, we've implemented a bunch of workflows and strategies to try and help composers with different requirements. And I really do like to test (although most testing these days is more for our post production workstations)

I realise this is off topic a little - but its all worth keeping in mind.


----------



## machinesworking

colony nofi said:


> Test it for yourself. We've done exhausted testing of this over a period of 18 months or so on a bunch of different drives. And looked right into what was going on (which came about after @tack did some wonderful testing himself into what kontakt is doing.)
> Turns out (the simple version) is that kontakt is repeatedly opening and closing the files over and over again, rather than reading in larger blocks. This severely impacts load speeds, so that for instance a 800MB/s drive will actually read at an equivalent 120MB/s for kontakt preload. And a 3000MB/s drive will actually read in at approx 185MB/s. (There are variations between kontakt patches for a bunch of other reasons. We ended up making a suite of "test only" kontakt instruments for our own benchmarking purposes - which also showed that different styles of instruments read with different efficiencies.
> 
> But the long and the short of it is, YES - NVME drives are amazing. But kontakt inefficiencies are not allowing load times to scale according to speed differences.
> 
> I have not yet been able to run tests on the M1 16" MBP we have here (8TB version) - but I'm pretty sure I know where it will end up on our graphs, and it isn't anywhere near the drive speeds seen on speed tests.
> 
> (Also - its worth looking at how speed tests work... and how the size of the chunks being read/written effect things massively. Blackmagic speed test is cool and all, but won't tell u much about your real world experience for audio - except that anything above 500MB/s is fast, and probably fast enough.)
> 
> And of course - most of this is mute for folk who don't use MASSIVE templates. Just loading in a 60 track TV score project on a modern system isn't going to slow you down too much, even if you have a few crashes a day. But if you have old school massive templates, loading times DO make a big difference.
> 
> There's of course even more ways around it - having the largest templates off loaded to a VEPro instance which are rock solid / need only be launched once per day when you make your morning coffee.
> 
> Personally I don't use large templates - and either load in groups of pre-defined tracks, or just make a template for a project thats usually 150 tracks or less. And on modern systems, the inefficiencies don't bother me. But it certainly bothers other composers we work with, and being a composer who enjoys working in tech, we've implemented a bunch of workflows and strategies to try and help composers with different requirements. And I really do like to test (although most testing these days is more for our post production workstations)
> 
> I realise this is off topic a little - but its all worth keeping in mind.


Yeah you inspired me to try it, and it's pretty grim like you and Pier mention. Same KH CS 2 all strings all articulation patch loads at 11 seconds on a PCIe mounted NVME bottlenecked to 1500MB/s by the Mac Pro bus, and 12 seconds in a USB3 enclosure getting 342MB/s. Makes me wonder if Play, VSL, or UVI are getting any better results? because that's definitely not due to just random access time, since it's not even a question that the NVME would have at least 30% faster random access as well.


----------



## StefVR

I disagree with Charlie in some points. Im certain the as mac pro will completely replace the intel mac pro no alongside anymore.

Also apple have to put it in another housing evn if its just for cooling reasons alone. Even tho these chips are super efficient. Having 4 m1 max will generate quite some heat and needs proper cooling if they want to achive a quite system.

Also good post from colony nofi. In principal an optane ssd from intel would be fastest due to much higher 4k speeds. However in practically it is in a common desktop environment only slightly faster. Reason being other system processes bottleneck the speed of the ssd. This seems to be also the case for konakt. Would be great to have similar tests with spitfire player, vienna player and ot to see if this is a kontakt specific or does the os or other interfaces bottleneck here.


----------



## IvanP

rnb_2 said:


> OWC's 4M2 has a pretty loud fan, unfortunately. Sonnet's new combo dock/NVMe enclosure also has a pretty small fan, so I'm curious to find out how loud it is. If you want silence, you're better off with single-drive NVMe enclosures - I've had very good luck with OWC's Envoy Express, but you won't get the full 2800MB/s unless you RAID two of them together.


Thanks a lot!


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo

resonate said:


> Just call her Tracy. Or Kathy. Or....


You should name your weapons Susi. Trust me.


----------



## Minsky

gsilbers said:


> the absolute cheapest for 128gb seems to be $4800


That's a lot cheaper than in the UK!


----------



## StefVR

Vat…


----------



## wayne_rowley

Minsky said:


> That's a lot cheaper than in the UK!


I don't think that amount includes sales tax though (ours includes VAT).


----------



## Drumdude2112

Soooooo fellas , whats the ‘ consensus‘ here (help clue me in lol ) is getting the 20 core machine somewhat of a ‘waste’ at THIS point and juncture ?…Is most software not able to take advantage of so many cores at this point ?…The 10 core with 64 ghz of ram is 2400 , is it worth soending the 1600 more to get the 20 core ?…Will i see much of a difference in workflow (mostly running S1 and Ableton Live , and sometimes cubase) Thanks in advance for your ‘guru guidance’ 😉


----------



## mat1

StefVR said:


> Would be great to have similar tests with spitfire player, vienna player and ot to see if this is a kontakt specific or does the os or other interfaces bottleneck here.


I'd also love to know!


----------



## IFM

Drumdude2112 said:


> Soooooo fellas , whats the ‘ consensus‘ here (help clue me in lol ) is getting the 20 core machine somewhat of a ‘waste’ at THIS point and juncture ?…Is most software not able to take advantage of so many cores at this point ?…The 10 core with 64 ghz of ram is 2400 , is it worth soending the 1600 more to get the 20 core ?…Will i see much of a difference in workflow (mostly running S1 and Ableton Live , and sometimes cubase) Thanks in advance for your ‘guru guidance’ 😉


Keep in mind some of those cores are efficiency cores and not high performance. IMO if you can afford the bigger chip get it.


----------



## robgb

I'm starting to think I may wait six months and buy refurbished.


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo

Hard cash for more cores may be hardcore, but i will get the basic one,
just because it will still be a night/day difference from my lowend trashy hexacoreish i5.


----------



## jneebz

Not to side rail the conversation, but what about the upcoming upgraded Mac Mini? I’ve always had an iMac for the studio so I’m not familiar with the Mini’s potential form factor/connectivity shortcomings but it looks like there will be M2/M2 Pro versions with a a 64GB RAM option…sorry the source is probably not super solid but I think there’s enough to expect an upgrade of some sort…









Exclusive: Updated Mac mini to have versions with M2 and M2 Pro chip


9to5Mac has learned from sources that Apple is developing two new versions of it: one with M2 and one with the M2 Pro chip.



9to5mac.com


----------



## Drumdude2112

DAMN do i go 10 cores and wait for M2 or go 20…🤔


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo

robgb said:


> I'm starting to think I may wait six months and buy refurbished.


Apple thinks otherwise. Money is short but you will get Apple TV for free again for six months. So you could watch some great cinema until the refurbished macs appear, sell yours, and buy a new one again. Easiest way to see these cool shows and movies for free.


----------



## Alex Fraser

I must admit, this pro/max/ultra thing isn't Apple's finest hour in terms of product differentiation.

I can imagine the staff in Apple stores are going to have a fun time of it. _"No, the max isn't actually the maximum and the pro is actually the *start* of the "pro" levels. Yes, it's for pros but not pro pros..."_
etc.


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo

Alex Fraser said:


> I can imagine the staff in Apple stores are going to have a fun time of it. _"No, the max isn't actually the maximum and the pro is actually the *start* of the "pro" levels. Yes, it's for pros but not pro pros..."_
> etc.


If you are a pro pro, you don’t have to run in a store anymore and ask, you know all the differences better than those little Apple achievers in the stores.
If you are just a pro, looking for something just being pro and not pro pro, you can always ask your partner to tell you back everything you annoyed her/him with for weeks. Ever seen an old lady walk into those glassy huts asking a well ranked Apple employee about something thats pro enough for her younger relative? That time will come when cpu cores are highlighted on handwritten shopping lists i believe, but then it will surely be a matter of deciphering handwriting instead of Apples 
easy to grasp idea to just choose by superlatives.
Explains already also why many doctors still use those 486‘s.


----------



## Pier

David Kudell said:


> Speaking of AppleCare, I saw a video that said you can pay $60 a year to cover the Mac Studio and can continue that indefinitely if you want, which is pretty awesome if you just want to not worry about your investment.


This would be a game changer if true.

Any official source?


----------



## IFM

Pier said:


> This would be a game changer if true.
> 
> Any official source?


I chose this option when ordering mine. It doesn't give an end day (even when ordering), just says:
​



​
AppleCare+ for Mac Studio - $59.99/yr.​Automatically registered with your Apple hardware.​



I also found this on Mac Rumors...apparently last year you can now extend indefinitely. 








AppleCare+ Coverage for Mac Can Now Be Extended Beyond Three Years


In addition to making AppleCare+ available for the Apple TV for the first time, Apple is now allowing AppleCare+ coverage for Macs to be extended...




www.macrumors.com


----------



## Pier

IFM said:


> I chose this option when ordering mine. It doesn't give an end day (even when ordering), just says:
> ​
> 
> 
> ​
> AppleCare+ for Mac Studio - $59.99/yr.​Automatically registered with your Apple hardware.​
> 
> 
> I also found this on Mac Rumors...apparently last year you can now extend indefinitely.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AppleCare+ Coverage for Mac Can Now Be Extended Beyond Three Years
> 
> 
> In addition to making AppleCare+ available for the Apple TV for the first time, Apple is now allowing AppleCare+ coverage for Macs to be extended...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.macrumors.com


"Apple is now allowing AppleCare+ coverage for Macs to be extended indefinitely *in the United States*"

Hopefully it will go international at some point...


----------



## Marsen

_AppleCare+ coverage for Mac remains capped at three years outside of the United States.
_


----------



## KEM

Pier said:


> This would be a game changer if true.
> 
> Any official source?



Yes, Apple lol


----------



## KEM

This is where I wear my proud American hat


----------



## Antonio Zarza

jneebz said:


> Not to side rail the conversation, but what about the upcoming upgraded Mac Mini? I’ve always had an iMac for the studio so I’m not familiar with the Mini’s potential form factor/connectivity shortcomings but it looks like there will be M2/M2 Pro versions with a a 64GB RAM option…sorry the source is probably not super solid but I think there’s enough to expect an upgrade of some sort…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exclusive: Updated Mac mini to have versions with M2 and M2 Pro chip
> 
> 
> 9to5Mac has learned from sources that Apple is developing two new versions of it: one with M2 and one with the M2 Pro chip.
> 
> 
> 
> 9to5mac.com


I’m not sure about this since M1 Pro chip only achieve 32Gb maximum RAM. If they could put 64Gb in an M2 Pro chip would be awesome for some of us for about 2000$ with 2Tb, but again we can only suppose and not be certain about it to happen this summer.

The thing with Mac Studio at least in Europe, is so expensive that one only can put the trigger once hopping his investment was a good one. In Spain for example for a Mac Studio with M1 Max 64Gb and 2Tb it rises up to 3.479€ and if you want Apple Care it cost 179€ more. So 3.658€ in total. 

A Mac Mini with M2 Pro 64Gb 2Tb would be a dream for about 2.000€ or 2.500€ max.


----------



## gsilbers

Minsky said:


> That's a lot cheaper than in the UK!


USA doesnt include tax. eah state is different.


----------



## Pier

Antonio Zarza said:


> The thing with Mac Studio at least in Europe, is so expensive that one only can put the trigger once hopping his investment was a good one. In Spain for example for a Mac Studio with M1 Max 64Gb and 2Tb it rises up to 3.479€ and if you want Apple Care it cost 179€ more. So 3.658€ in total.


It's pretty ridiculous how Apple increases its prices outside the US.

Here in Mexico the Studio starts at $2,500 USD for the M1 Max and $5,100 for the M1 Ultra.


----------



## el-bo

Antonio Zarza said:


> I’m not sure about this since M1 Pro chip only achieve 32Gb maximum RAM. If they could put 64Gb in an M2 Pro chip would be awesome for some of us for about 2000$ with 2Tb, but again we can only suppose and not be certain about it to happen this summer.
> 
> The thing with Mac Studio at least in Europe, is so expensive that one only can put the trigger once hopping his investment was a good one. In Spain for example for a Mac Studio with M1 Max 64Gb and 2Tb it rises up to 3.479€ and if you want Apple Care it cost 179€ more. So 3.658€ in total.
> 
> A Mac Mini with M2 Pro 64Gb 2Tb would be a dream for about 2.000€ or 2.500€ max.


Seems like capping the Mini, Air and the 'Pro'-sumer model at 16gig RAM would make a much clearer distinction between the various levels being offered. No doubt Apple are very aware of how many musicians, content-creators etc. would be able to settle with the 'lower' end of the line-up if 32Gig was offered. 

As it stands, spending to upgrade the base models to 16gig and doubling the storage, to 512, makes the base model 'Studio' much more attractive, at not a huge amount more.


----------



## KEM

gsilbers said:


> USA doesnt include tax. eah state is different.



Some states don’t even have tax!!


----------



## aeliron

Pier said:


> It's pretty ridiculous how Apple increases its prices outside the US.
> 
> Here in Mexico the Studio starts at $2,500 USD for the M1 Max and $5,100 for the M1 Ultra.


Probably just the cost of doing business there, including taxes, tariffs, extra required consumer rights and ... other costs.


----------



## KEM

KEM said:


> Some states don’t even have tax!!



Actually now that I think about it I’m kind of an idiot, my brother lives in New Hampshire which is one of the few states without sales tax, I could’ve just used his address and then he could’ve brought it to me next time he can home, I could’ve saved almost $400!!


----------



## gsilbers

jneebz said:


> Not to side rail the conversation, but what about the upcoming upgraded Mac Mini? I’ve always had an iMac for the studio so I’m not familiar with the Mini’s potential form factor/connectivity shortcomings but it looks like there will be M2/M2 Pro versions with a a 64GB RAM option…sorry the source is probably not super solid but I think there’s enough to expect an upgrade of some sort…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exclusive: Updated Mac mini to have versions with M2 and M2 Pro chip
> 
> 
> 9to5Mac has learned from sources that Apple is developing two new versions of it: one with M2 and one with the M2 Pro chip.
> 
> 
> 
> 9to5mac.com



thats interesting. if apple releases the m2 in june, then the studio might have it, which means buying a m1 studio right now might be pointless or too close to an upgrade. 
Unless apple is introducing the lower tier macs first to test the waters performance wise.


----------



## KEM

gsilbers said:


> thats interesting. if apple releases the m2 in june, then the studio might have it, which means buying a m1 studio right now might be pointless or too close to an upgrade.
> Unless apple is introducing the lower tier macs first to test the waters performance wise.



The M2 and M2 Pro won’t be anywhere near as powerful as the M1 Max and M1 Ultra, so I wouldn’t bother waiting personally


----------



## gsilbers

KEM said:


> The M2 and M2 Pro won’t be anywhere near as powerful as the M1 Max and M1 Ultra, so I wouldn’t bother waiting personally


yeah, but still seems to be apple putting out the low tier first and then their plan seems to later join these cpu for max and ultra. Which would help us decide what mac or how powerful itll be.


----------



## Antonio Zarza

KEM said:


> The M2 and M2 Pro won’t be anywhere near as powerful as the M1 Max and M1 Ultra, so I wouldn’t bother waiting personally


As I understand and correct me if I’m wrong, the M2 is going to have better performance in a single core, and that’s the most important part for composers right? I asking because this is one thing I’m not sure about but that what I have heard. I mean, multi core power it’s not as necessary as single core power.


----------



## thesteelydane

If money was no issue I'd get a 128 GB Studio, and a 64 Gb MacBook Pro. Ultra powerful, yet portable setup. Portability is important to me. Unfortunately money IS an issue (unless you all start buying more Bunker Samples libraries...). Torn between the Studio and MacBook...


----------



## IFM

Antonio Zarza said:


> As I understand and correct me if I’m wrong, the M2 is going to have better performance in a single core, and that’s the most important part for composers right? I asking because this is one thing I’m not sure about but that what I have heard. I mean, multi core power it’s not as necessary as single core power.


They can be equally important. The M1 already has amazing single core speed and having multiples of that is the way to go. If you are using Logic or Cubase with the dual buffers (such as ASIO Guard) the multi-core really helps. I see that Steinberg fixed not using the extra cores in C12. I haven't tried using it yet on an M1 though.


----------



## Pier

aeliron said:


> Probably just the cost of doing business there, including taxes, tariffs, extra required consumer rights and ... other costs.


Could be, but Apple already has most of the same costs in the US vs Mexico. I mean, it's even cheaper to operate here than in the US.

In fact, now that I think of it, this only started happening like 6-7 years ago. Before that, prices were pretty close to US ones. And then we started joking it was cheaper to fly to the US to buy a MBP.


----------



## gsilbers

Antonio Zarza said:


> As I understand and correct me if I’m wrong, the M2 is going to have better performance in a single core, and that’s the most important part for composers right? I asking because this is one thing I’m not sure about but that what I have heard. I mean, multi core power it’s not as necessary as single core power.



I thought it was only for logic folks. does it matter for cubase or can cubase do multi thread?


----------



## Pier

gsilbers said:


> I thought it was only for logic folks. does it matter for cubase or can cubase do multi thread?


All DAWs do multithreading but they have different strategies on how to distribute the load over multiple threads/cores.

AFAIK single core perf is important because most plugins are single threaded and cannot distribute their work over multiple cores in the allocated buffer time.


----------



## babylonwaves

This is a pretty good comparison (mac studio vs mac pro 2019). it covers specs, upgradability, interfaces etc:









Compared: Mac Studio versus Mac Pro | AppleInsider


Apple's new Mac Studio is the company's most powerful Apple Silicon machine yet. Here's how it stacks up against the Mac Pro, Apple's most powerful Intel-based Mac to date.




appleinsider.com





in fact, looking at it, it shows what a great product the mac studio is. this is interesting for us musicians:


----------



## thesteelydane

babylonwaves said:


> This is a pretty good comparison (mac studio vs mac pro 2019). it covers specs, upgradability, interfaces etc:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Compared: Mac Studio versus Mac Pro | AppleInsider
> 
> 
> Apple's new Mac Studio is the company's most powerful Apple Silicon machine yet. Here's how it stacks up against the Mac Pro, Apple's most powerful Intel-based Mac to date.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> appleinsider.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> in fact, looking at it, it shows what a great product the mac studio is. this is interesting for us musicians:


Damn...


----------



## babylonwaves

thesteelydane said:


> Damn...


yes it looks very promising for us


----------



## BassClef

KEM said:


> Actually now that I think about it I’m kind of an idiot, my brother lives in New Hampshire which is one of the few states without sales tax, I could’ve just used his address and then he could’ve brought it to me next time he can home, I could’ve saved almost $400!!


In addition to my hobby of music composition with VIs, I also do lot of photography. For years, I have purchased gear from BHPhoto because they NEVER charged sales tax. Now they are required to charge sale tax, even for sales outside of NY. However they get around this by offering their own credit card, and when you use that to make your purchase, they add the sales tax but INSTANTLY rebate the sales tax back to your card balance! My $6798 Studio Ultra (PC & Display) savings (8.25% local tax) savings is $561.


----------



## KEM

BassClef said:


> In addition to my hobby of music composition with VIs, I also do lot of photography. For years, I have purchased gear from BHPhoto because they NEVER charged sales tax. Now they are required to charge sale tax, even for sales outside of NY. However they get around this by offering their own credit card, and when you use that to make your purchase, they add the sales tax but INSTANTLY rebate the sales tax back to your card balance! My $6798 Studio Ultra (PC & Display) savings (8.25% local tax) savings is $561.



Very interesting!! I might have to look into that for any new tech I buy, thanks for the heads up!


----------



## gsilbers

babylonwaves said:


> This is a pretty good comparison (mac studio vs mac pro 2019). it covers specs, upgradability, interfaces etc:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Compared: Mac Studio versus Mac Pro | AppleInsider
> 
> 
> Apple's new Mac Studio is the company's most powerful Apple Silicon machine yet. Here's how it stacks up against the Mac Pro, Apple's most powerful Intel-based Mac to date.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> appleinsider.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> in fact, looking at it, it shows what a great product the mac studio is. this is interesting for us musicians:


wow

thats a minimum of $13,000 for the 28 mac pro w 32gb of ram. 
6k for the 8 core. 


so yeah, the studio with ultra is by far much less expensive in comparison. 
I wonder what its like if comparing it in the pc world. (non xeon/but similar benchmark and ram/storage)


----------



## cet34f

babylonwaves said:


> This is a pretty good comparison (mac studio vs mac pro 2019). it covers specs, upgradability, interfaces etc:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Compared: Mac Studio versus Mac Pro | AppleInsider
> 
> 
> Apple's new Mac Studio is the company's most powerful Apple Silicon machine yet. Here's how it stacks up against the Mac Pro, Apple's most powerful Intel-based Mac to date.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> appleinsider.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> in fact, looking at it, it shows what a great product the mac studio is. this is interesting for us musicians:


I'm sorry, but to me, this chart only highlights what a waste it is to buy Ultra to get 128 GB Ram, and since we do need 128 GB Ram, both Mac Studio models are not musician-friendly.


----------



## BassClef

gsilbers said:


> wow
> 
> thats a minimum of $13,000 for the 28 mac pro w 32gb of ram.
> 6k for the 8 core.
> 
> 
> so yeah, the studio with ultra is by far much less expensive in comparison.
> I wonder what its like if comparing it in the pc world. (non xeon/but similar benchmark and ram/storage)


Pricing a 28 core Mac Pro compared to the Studio Ultra (20 core CPU, 48 core GPU, 128gb ram, 2TB SSD) that I ordered.... Mac Pro with similar (192 versus my 128) ram, 2TB internal SSD and a decent graphics card... $5,199 versus $17,999.


----------



## gsilbers

cet34f said:


> I'm sorry, but to me, this chart only highlights what a waste it is to buy Ultra to get 128 GB Ram, and since we do need 128 GB Ram, both Mac Studio models are not musician-friendly.



True for most music producers. For composers with large template the 128gb ram is very useful, but so many cores might not be.


----------



## samphony

Pier said:


> "Apple is now allowing AppleCare+ coverage for Macs to be extended indefinitely *in the United States*"
> 
> Hopefully it will go international at some point...


I’m in Berlin so I pay for a yearly sub.


----------



## samphony

thesteelydane said:


> If money was no issue I'd get a 128 GB Studio, and a 64 Gb MacBook Pro. Ultra powerful, yet portable setup. Portability is important to me. Unfortunately money IS an issue (unless you all start buying more Bunker Samples libraries...). Torn between the Studio and MacBook...


Go portable!


----------



## babylonwaves

cet34f said:


> I'm sorry, but this chart only highlights what a waste it is to buy Ultra to get 128 GB Ram, and since we do need 128 GB Ram, both Mac Studio models are not musician-friendly.



@cet34f
the single-core performance is musician-friendly because we rely on it - indifference to other groups of artists.


----------



## rnb_2

Pier said:


> Could be, but Apple already has most of the same costs in the US vs Mexico. I mean, it's even cheaper to operate here than in the US.
> 
> In fact, now that I think of it, this only started happening like 6-7 years ago. Before that, prices were pretty close to US ones. And then we started joking it was cheaper to fly to the US to buy a MBP.


I suspect that some of this is Apple protecting itself against currency fluctuations in non-US markets- being as mammoth as they now are, that becomes a big deal (they cover it in quarterly earnings). They'd prefer not to change prices unless things really go crazy, so they tend to pad the price to keep currency swings from adversely effecting them.


----------



## rnb_2

gsilbers said:


> yeah, but still seems to be apple putting out the low tier first and then their plan seems to later join these cpu for max and ultra. Which would help us decide what mac or how powerful itll be.


Lower-end, easier-to-produce chips are almost always the first produced for a processor generation. Intel does the laptop chips first, then desktop, then (way down the line) maybe a Xeon offshoot, sometimes years after the laptop chips. You work out the kinks on less expensive parts, and only start producing the big, expensive versions once everything is completely sorted in production.


----------



## rnb_2

BassClef said:


> In addition to my hobby of music composition with VIs, I also do lot of photography. For years, I have purchased gear from BHPhoto because they NEVER charged sales tax. Now they are required to charge sale tax, even for sales outside of NY. However they get around this by offering their own credit card, and when you use that to make your purchase, they add the sales tax but INSTANTLY rebate the sales tax back to your card balance! My $6798 Studio Ultra (PC & Display) savings (8.25% local tax) savings is $561.


I'm also a photographer, and have been buying a lot from B&H for many years. If you ever find yourself in NYC, it's a fun stop - like some sort of mad Santa's workshop, with your basket of merchandise meeting you at checkout via an elaborate system of tracks. Just keep in mind that they close early on Fridays and are closed on Saturdays, as well as all of the Jewish holidays (listed on their website).

I also used their card to save the sales tax on my M1 Pro MacBook Pro this week - saved over $200 on the $3299 retail price. This often makes them cheaper for me than other retailers that offer discounts from retail, especially on higher-priced items.


----------



## Pier

rnb_2 said:


> I suspect that some of this is Apple protecting itself against currency fluctuations in non-US markets- being as mammoth as they now are, that becomes a big deal (they cover it in quarterly earnings). They'd prefer not to change prices unless things really go crazy, so they tend to pad the price to keep currency swings from adversely effecting them.


Yeah that makes sense.

Although personally I'd prefer they managed prices in USD instead of paying 20-25% extra by default. Many brands in Mexico like Dell do this.


----------



## rnb_2

Pier said:


> Yeah that makes sense.
> 
> Although personally I'd prefer they managed prices in USD instead of paying 20-25% extra by default. Many brands in Mexico like Dell do this.


That's certainly an option - not sure what laws/regulations might be involved to make that more or less attractive to them. Also, I should note that I don't think this ever works out in the favor of non-US customers - if the Euro is particularly strong, Apple still doesn't tend to price anything lower in Euros than Dollars. The UK is hit particularly hard hit by this, since Apple pretty routinely prices things the same in Pounds Sterling as Dollars.


----------



## Antonio Zarza

cet34f said:


> I'm sorry, but to me, this chart only highlights what a waste it is to buy Ultra to get 128 GB Ram, and since we do need 128 GB Ram, both Mac Studio models are not musician-friendly.


I think that the most important part about it is that we can’t upgrade the RAM in the future so you need to make a decision now without the opportunity to keep your machine and upgrade it in the future in case you need so you won’t have to buy another entire Mac Studio then.

And that it’s not a very environmental friendly that they are presuming in the showcase. I’m telling that having the experience with a MacBook Pro from 2012 which I could upgrade the RAM and the Drive a few years ago and was great having the option to do that. 

So I understand @cet34f when he says that. A M1 Max with 128Gb would be great without expend 1.610€ extra for more cores that we don’t need in general. 

Thanks a lot for the info you have share guys about the Benchmarks and the comparison link!


----------



## gsilbers

rnb_2 said:


> Lower-end, easier-to-produce chips are almost always the first produced for a processor generation. Intel does the laptop chips first, then desktop, then (way down the line) maybe a Xeon offshoot, sometimes years after the laptop chips. You work out the kinks on less expensive parts, and only start producing the big, expensive versions once everything is completely sorted in production.



thats good to know. but that would be mean that single core stays about the same with this?


----------



## rnb_2

gsilbers said:


> thats good to know. but that would be mean that single core stays about the same with this?


Single core performance stays fairly similar across a generation - all of the M1s benchmark somewhere between 1700 and 1800 in single core. I don't know if the slight improvement from M1 to M1 Pro to M1 Max to M1 Ultra are attributable to slight changes in manufacturing, clock speed, etc, but they're all within about 5% of each other across the whole line.

The same will likely hold true with M2, where we'll probably see a 10-20% increase in single core performance vs M1, but M2 Pro/Max/Ultra will be similar to the base M2 chip. Since core counts are likely to stay the same on M2 as M1 (except the GPU, which will go from a max of 8 cores to 10), we'll see similar increases in performance vs. the same chip in the M1 line, give or take a few percent.


----------



## Grilled Cheese

Alex Fraser said:


> I must admit, this pro/max/ultra thing isn't Apple's finest hour in terms of product differentiation.
> 
> I can imagine the staff in Apple stores are going to have a fun time of it. _"No, the max isn't actually the maximum and the pro is actually the *start* of the "pro" levels. Yes, it's for pros but not pro pros..."_
> etc.


It’s a fairly simple. You understand it, so what makes you think anyone else will struggle?

Pro, Max, Ultra.
L, XL, XXL.

I’m looking forward to XXXL (aka Ludicrous mode).


----------



## HCMarkus

I don't understand folks implying multiple cores are not essential when working with DAWs. Although many processes can't span more than a single core, multi-core CPUs are perfectly suited to DAW workflow, like a mixing desk is perfectly suited to multi-track tape recorders. You can't EQ the audio fed to channel 1 by using the EQ on a mixer's channel 3, but you don't need to!

It is the combination of superb single-core performance multiplied by many cores that make today's machines so powerful.


----------



## BassClef

HCMarkus said:


> I don't understand folks implying multiple cores are not essential when working with DAWs. Although many processes can't span more than a single core, multi-core CPUs are perfectly suited to DAW workflow, like a mixing desk is perfectly suited to multi-track tape recorders. You can't EQ the audio fed to channel 1 by using the EQ on a mixer's channel 3, but you don't need to!
> 
> It is the combination of superb single-core performance multiplied by many cores that make today's machines so powerful.


Agreed... I ordered Studio Ultra with 128GB for future proofing. I imagine more and more (VI and plugin) developers will take full advantage of multi cores over the next few years.


----------



## Loïc D

I was wondering if anyone did a Dolby Atmos benchmark in LPX and how much it’s taxing on resources.
Might justify the extra power.

I plan to remix all my tunes in Atmos so that listeners can feel the ugly around them, not only in stereo.


----------



## NoamL

babylonwaves said:


> This is a pretty good comparison (mac studio vs mac pro 2019). it covers specs, upgradability, interfaces etc:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Compared: Mac Studio versus Mac Pro | AppleInsider
> 
> 
> Apple's new Mac Studio is the company's most powerful Apple Silicon machine yet. Here's how it stacks up against the Mac Pro, Apple's most powerful Intel-based Mac to date.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> appleinsider.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> in fact, looking at it, it shows what a great product the mac studio is. this is interesting for us musicians:


On top of this Logic is optimized to run on M1.

If you use Logic it seems like there is no contest. I really struggle to think of how the M1 Max isn't going to be enough for people.

And if you don't use Logic... it also seems like there is no contest - go build a custom PC!


----------



## HCMarkus

DP is Apple Silicon Native. And fully utilizes multi-core hardware.


----------



## Vik

colony nofi said:


> I have not yet been able to run tests on the M1 16" MBP we have here


Which Mac was your tests run on then, if I may ask?


----------



## Pier

NoamL said:


> On top of this Logic is optimized to run on M1.
> 
> If you use Logic it seems like there is no contest. I really struggle to think of how the M1 Max isn't going to be enough for people.
> 
> And if you don't use Logic... it also seems like there is no contest - go build a custom PC!


Just saw this video comparing Kontakt native in Logic vs ProTools using some NI libraries.


----------



## HCMarkus

Logic is Native. Unless something happened today of which I am unaware, Pro Tools is not.


----------



## Shimoyjk

For those who use mac m1 or m1 max,

I’m wondering
Mac studio - basic cpu and ram - only upgrade ssd to 1tb

Is going to be enough for my use?

Work I do is producing pop/r&b and I track few instruments in my project studio. Also use 5-15 omnisphere, few trillian, kontakt library 4-8 tracks (spitfire one and chambers are in my mind). Also I have few ssd(eventually will upgrade to 2-4 tb external drive.)

I’m using powerful hackintosh but my sister is going to get one of this as present(I know.. best sis ever!)


----------



## Monkey Man

Dewdman42 said:


> I'm very happy they are addressing power users at least for that aspect. But I just want internal drive bays and PCI slots is all, without having to pay the price of a small car.


Preach, brother.

Same here mate. Gonna wait with fingers and toes crossed...


----------



## colony nofi

Vik said:


> Which Mac was your tests run on then, if I may ask?


We've run them on all our current studio computers. So:
Mac Pro trashcans (I think all ours are 6 and 8 core versions from memory), iMacs (9900k is the last one we bought, but have earlier ones with the not so crash hot SSD+HDD combo), M1 mini, i7 minis of different ages, MBP from 2015 and 2018. I think I've even got data from our old cheese-graters. 
Have also run on a few pc's (including a 10920 workstation and a 10th gen intel nuc)

I have a kitted out 2021 MBP but have not run all our benchmarks on it - I just haven't had the time and it is not something that we are going to use as studio machines / isn't really part of the standard workflow. I run the benchmarks so we can tell how well the machines will do with our own workflows. Most are post production workflows - but they still use Kontakt. But also SPAT and Nuendo.

I do have a full composition based benchmark suite (3 different types of sessions with our own custom Kontakt patches) which show relative performance for OUR workflows.


----------



## Grilled Cheese

Shimoyjk said:


> For those who use mac m1 or m1 max,
> 
> I’m wondering
> Mac studio - basic cpu and ram - only upgrade ssd to 1tb
> 
> Is going to be enough for my use?
> 
> Work I do is producing pop/r&b and I track few instruments in my project studio. Also use 5-15 omnisphere, few trillian, kontakt library 4-8 tracks (spitfire one and chambers are in my mind). Also I have few ssd(eventually will upgrade to 2-4 tb external drive.)
> 
> I’m using powerful hackintosh but my sister is going to get one of this as present(I know.. best sis ever!)


M1 Max will make light work of that kind of project setup.


----------



## molemac

I am thinking the ultra would be great but approx 5k vs 2k for 64g of ram doesn’t make sense so my solution is to keep my trash can with 128gb ram as a VEP slave for Orchestral template if I need the big guns and get the MAx at 64gb as my logic main computer. Most of the time I wouldn’t need the 128 anyway. I also run protools which I could keep on the trash can.

Of course I could just wait and see how people get on with max v ultra v pro but for 2k it seems like a pretty good bet to be able to have a 2022 machine vs 2013 . I know the trash can is still fine to work with but I presume I will have a much faster experience of loading projects etc


----------



## colony nofi

Loïc D said:


> I was wondering if anyone did a Dolby Atmos benchmark in LPX and how much it’s taxing on resources.
> Might justify the extra power.
> 
> I plan to remix all my tunes in Atmos so that listeners can feel the ugly around them, not only in stereo.


atmos on rosetta Nuendo 11 on MBP 64GB ram works a treat. Purrs through massive sessions. I'm looking forward to when N12 is native like C12! I mean, a 8 year old trashcan handles atmos pretty well. I find it is other plugins along the way that cause cpu issues more than the efficiencies of the bussing, which seems to work ok. However - since these a post systems, they're running max buffers all the time because they can. We use focusrite RedLine16's / Dante for all our post I/O that hasn't been upgraded from RME interfaces. I like the new RME AVB gear (and spec'd it for a different purpose recently) but bang for buck over multi-studios when not needing HUGE rigs put things firmly in the focusrite court. Oh - and that's right - at the time, we couldn't get the RME gear easily. (Supply chains in covid/that fire in Japan etc etc.)


----------



## Shimoyjk

Grilled Cheese said:


> M1 Max will make light work of that kind of project setup.


Thanks. I know i want at least 1tb, but how about ram? Should I go with 64gb?


----------



## mat1

Shimoyjk said:


> Thanks. I know i want at least 1tb, but how about ram? Should I go with 64gb?


You should open a few projects and see what your current ram usage is. It sounds like 32gb will be way more than enough


----------



## Zedcars

For anyone interested in an external Thunderbolt drive to accompany their Mac, I just ran a BlackMagic test on my 8TB OWC Thunderblade Thunderbolt 3 drive configured as RAID 0 and optimised for audio (click to enlarge):






The only drawback is having to use the SoftRaid software, but it's never given me any problems so far and there is an Apple Silicon version available. I'm very happy with its performance.









OWC ThunderBlade review: a silent, rugged, and super-fast external Thunderbolt 3 SSD [Video]


We review the OWC ThunderBlade, the fastest external SSD setup when configured with dual ThunderBlades. Great for iMac Pro users who edit video.




9to5mac.com


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo

Anybody has experience with using an imac for just as a display? Without booting the imac.


----------



## BassClef

Zedcars said:


> For anyone interested in an external Thunderbolt drive to accompany their Mac, I just ran a BlackMagic test on my 8TB OWC Thunderblade Thunderbolt 3 drive configured as RAID 0 and optimised for audio (click to enlarge):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only drawback is having to use the SoftRaid software, but it's never given me any problems so far and there is an Apple Silicon version available. I'm very happy with its performance.


That’s over 5 times faster in and out than my external SATA SSDs running through USB 3.0! Does the Thunderblade have 2 or 4 SSDs running RAID 0 totaling 8TB? And what type of SSDs are inside?


----------



## ZTime

Shimoyjk said:


> For those who use mac m1 or m1 max,
> 
> I’m wondering
> Mac studio - basic cpu and ram - only upgrade ssd to 1tb
> 
> Is going to be enough for my use?
> 
> Work I do is producing pop/r&b and I track few instruments in my project studio. Also use 5-15 omnisphere, few trillian, kontakt library 4-8 tracks (spitfire one and chambers are in my mind). Also I have few ssd(eventually will upgrade to 2-4 tb external drive.)
> 
> I’m using powerful hackintosh but my sister is going to get one of this as present(I know.. best sis ever!)


What DAW? Cubase / Logic?

I would suspect the base config. would work fine. The new M1 chip macs have a different faster ram architecture with bandwidth that makes them as twice as fast and efficient than old intel ones. I run iMac Pro (intel based) with 64Gb RAM without problems, so I presume you'll be fine with 32Gb of Ram on M1.
As a comparison my MBPro M1Pro has ''only'' 16Gb Ram and when using Davinci Resolve I don't se any RAM usage problems comparing to the intel iMAC Pro (with 64Gb RAM).

However, If you run 15 Omnisphere instances and each of them uses high RAM demanding patches, plus all the other instruments as you've specified, there could be potentially a bottleneck... just make sure your SSD (internal) drive, that is used for RAM virtualisation as well, isn't filled up.


----------



## marclawsonmusic

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> Anybody has experience with using an imac for just as a display? Without booting the imac.


I do this, but you do have to boot the iMac. Works great. Google 'target display mode'.


----------



## Zedcars

BassClef said:


> That’s over 5 times faster in and out than my external SATA SSDs running through USB 3.0! Does the Thunderblade have 2 or 4 SSDs running RAID 0 totaling 8TB? And what type of SSDs are inside?


It’s got four 2TB OWC Aura P12 SSDs. You can daisy chain another one for even faster speeds but that’s much faster than I need or will ever need.


----------



## davidson

@Zedcars Thunderblades come with 4x drives installed right, you don't add your own? What kind of speed did you see without running softraid?


----------



## Drumdude2112

doesn’t vepro take advantage of multiple cores ? (hence running a vepro template ‘native’ with 20 cores would be of benefit ) ?


----------



## Zedcars

davidson said:


> @Zedcars Thunderblades come with 4x drives installed right, you don't add your own? What kind of speed did you see without running softraid?


Yes, that’s right. It has them pre-installed and set up as RAID 0. You can change this if you want.

I have not tried this drive without SoftRaid as that is what is recommended to get the best performance. I guess the figures must be out there somewhere as it’s been out for long enough.


----------



## Shimoyjk

ZTime said:


> What DAW? Cubase / Logic?
> 
> I would suspect the base config. would work fine. The new M1 chip macs have a different faster ram architecture with bandwidth that makes them as twice as fast and efficient than old intel ones. I run iMac Pro (intel based) with 64Gb RAM without problems, so I presume you'll be fine with 32Gb of Ram on M1.
> As a comparison my MBPro M1Pro has ''only'' 16Gb Ram and when using Davinci Resolve I don't se any RAM usage problems comparing to the intel iMAC Pro (with 64Gb RAM).
> 
> However, If you run 15 Omnisphere instances and each of them uses high RAM demanding patches, plus all the other instruments as you've specified, there could be potentially a bottleneck... just make sure your SSD (internal) drive, that is used for RAM virtualisation as well, isn't filled up.


Thanks. Um I think 32gb is enough, I’m going for 1tb ssd and will get tb external drive as soon as I get new mac studio(4-6week now).


----------



## aeliron

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> Anybody has experience with using an imac for just as a display? Without booting the imac.


Astropad Luna Display, but you gotta boot


----------



## ZTime

Shimoyjk said:


> Thanks. Um I think 32gb is enough, I’m going for 1tb ssd and will get tb external drive as soon as I get new mac studio(4-6week now).


Yes, looks like a great plan  !


----------



## gsilbers

Shimoyjk said:


> For those who use mac m1 or m1 max,
> 
> I’m wondering
> Mac studio - basic cpu and ram - only upgrade ssd to 1tb
> 
> Is going to be enough for my use?
> 
> Work I do is producing pop/r&b and I track few instruments in my project studio. Also use 5-15 omnisphere, few trillian, kontakt library 4-8 tracks (spitfire one and chambers are in my mind). Also I have few ssd(eventually will upgrade to 2-4 tb external drive.)
> 
> I’m using powerful hackintosh but my sister is going to get one of this as present(I know.. best sis ever!)



I have the macbook air m1 and it can easily do that.


----------



## gsilbers

Zedcars said:


> For anyone interested in an external Thunderbolt drive to accompany their Mac, I just ran a BlackMagic test on my 8TB OWC Thunderblade Thunderbolt 3 drive configured as RAID 0 and optimised for audio (click to enlarge):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only drawback is having to use the SoftRaid software, but it's never given me any problems so far and there is an Apple Silicon version available. I'm very happy with its performance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OWC ThunderBlade review: a silent, rugged, and super-fast external Thunderbolt 3 SSD [Video]
> 
> 
> We review the OWC ThunderBlade, the fastest external SSD setup when configured with dual ThunderBlades. Great for iMac Pro users who edit video.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 9to5mac.com


geeez..
I have the sata ssd that go about 500m/s and can run already a lot of tracks. at 2k its insane.


----------



## rnb_2

marclawsonmusic said:


> I do this, but you do have to boot the iMac. Works great. Google 'target display mode'.


Just be aware that Target Display Mode only works on 2009-2014 iMacs, and doesn't work with any Retina (4k/5k) iMac.


----------



## Nachivnik

aeliron said:


> Astropad Luna Display, but you gotta boot


Could use an older 27" iMac as a VEPro server as well as a screen for a Mac Studio.


----------



## AR

So guys, tell me....

I'm coming from a 10980xe 4.6ghz w/ 256gb of ram (and I need about 160gb on a project - I work in Atmos before anyone asks). Will my projects benefit (cpu wise and buffer size) if (let's say I purge every VI in my 4000+ template to the minimum) I run my template on Mac Ultra? 

Oh, btw I'm working with C12 or N11. Unfortunately Asio-guard is no option for me cause VEPro handles audio signal processing.

Let me hear your thought...6k is tempting...


----------



## Pier

rnb_2 said:


> Just be aware that Target Display Mode only works on 2009-2014 iMacs, and doesn't work with any Retina (4k/5k) iMac.


I have a 5K iMac and I've always hated that... the display is gorgeous but it will go to trash once the device has served its purpose.

I considered Luna Display but the performance is quite bad at 5K from what I've seen.


----------



## dflood

Zedcars said:


> For anyone interested in an external Thunderbolt drive to accompany their Mac, I just ran a BlackMagic test on my 8TB OWC Thunderblade Thunderbolt 3 drive configured as RAID 0 and optimised for audio (click to enlarge):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only drawback is having to use the SoftRaid software, but it's never given me any problems so far and there is an Apple Silicon version available. I'm very happy with its performance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OWC ThunderBlade review: a silent, rugged, and super-fast external Thunderbolt 3 SSD [Video]
> 
> 
> We review the OWC ThunderBlade, the fastest external SSD setup when configured with dual ThunderBlades. Great for iMac Pro users who edit video.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 9to5mac.com


That’s really impressive, however, the cost (in Canada) for this drive is $3400 compared to $2400 for the Apple 8TB option.


----------



## davidson

Pier said:


> I have a 5K iMac and I've always hated that... the display is gorgeous but it will go to trash once the device has served its purpose.
> 
> I considered Luna Display but the performance is quite bad at 5K from what I've seen.


Apple can't let cheap used 5k imacs eat into their new expensive display sales now, can they!


----------



## rnb_2

davidson said:


> Apple can't let cheap used 5k imacs eat into their new expensive display sales now, can they!


When the 5k iMac first arrived in 2014, there was no way to drive a 5k display over then-current Thunderbolt 2 (not enough bandwidth). When Thunderbolt 3 arrived with enough bandwidth to drive 5k, Apple no longer made their own displays to discourage you from buying. I'm sure there was some cost involved in implementing the feature, and there was a period where there was literally no point in doing it.

One possibility was that Apple agreed not to re-implement TDM once it was possible as part of the deal with LG to make the Mac-focused UltraFine 4k/5k displays, but I don't think there was direct financial benefit to Apple in any scenario.

Honestly, in the 2017 timeframe, I could see wanting to use an iMac as a display, but that design now looks quite dated, with massive bezels all around.


----------



## rnb_2

Pier said:


> I have a 5K iMac and I've always hated that... the display is gorgeous but it will go to trash once the device has served its purpose.
> 
> I considered Luna Display but the performance is quite bad at 5K from what I've seen.


Yeah, Luna works pretty well over gigabit ethernet at 2k, which works well on my 4k-pretending-to-be-5k 27" display (same number of points on both Macs, but the local machine has 4x the pixels).

For anybody using Luna Display and a Wacom tablet, be aware that there are a couple bugs in the last couple updates (everything after 5.1.2) that really mess up the mouse tracking - after I bugged them for a few weeks, they finally sent links to an older version so I could roll back.


----------



## KEM

Besides Izotope and Plugin Alliance, what are some really big companies that were still waiting on native Apple Silicon support from? All the lists I’ve seen online are old at this point and haven’t been updated


----------



## rnb_2

KEM said:


> Besides Izotope and Plugin Alliance, what are some really big companies that were still waiting on native Apple Silicon support from? All the lists I’ve seen online are old at this point and haven’t been updated


VSL, but that's complicated by the switch to iLok, which is happening first.


----------



## KEM

rnb_2 said:


> VSL, but that's complicated by the switch to iLok, which is happening first.



Are those basically the only ones?


----------



## aeliron

Pier said:


> I have a 5K iMac and I've always hated that... the display is gorgeous but it will go to trash once the device has served its purpose.
> 
> I considered Luna Display but the performance is quite bad at 5K from what I've seen.


The ethernet connection option may be better. They have a 90-day return, I think.


----------



## Zedcars

dflood said:


> That’s really impressive, however, the cost (in Canada) for this drive is $3400 compared to $2400 for the Apple 8TB option.


I'm not sure where you're seeing that, but I paid £1686 (incl. VAT) in 2021 which equates to $2,803 CAD. But maybe the prices have risen since then.


----------



## Loïc D

Isn’t iLok going AS compatible very soon? I think I read somewhere that it’s imminent.


----------



## Vik

Loïc D said:


> Isn’t iLok going AS compatible very soon? I think I read somewhere that it’s imminent











PACE Anti-Piracy announces iLok support for Apple Silicon | macOS Audio


PRESS RELEASE – San Jose, California – PACE Anti-Piracy Inc., is pleased to announce full Native Apple Silicon support. After significant development and rigorous testing, iLok copy protection tools are now fully Apple Silicon compatible. The latest license support software update now includes...




www.macosaudio.com


----------



## KEM

Sweeeet


----------



## gsilbers

dflood said:


> That’s really impressive, however, the cost (in Canada) for this drive is $3400 compared to $2400 for the Apple 8TB option.


Maybe getting a ssd 8tb with an enclosure/bay would be somehwat similar for us at lower price?
$1099+ $250+tax

apples is $2200.







__





OWC Express 4M2 4-Slot NVMe M.2 SSD Enclosure at MacSales.com


TB3EX4M2 OWC Express 4M2 4-Slot NVMe M.2 SSD Enclosure. Four easy-to-access NVMe M.2 SSD slots customizable for any workflow with up to 32TB of capacity and up to 2800MB/s performance.




eshop.macsales.com





Although the price difference is not too outragous and apple uses better ssd so it lasts longer. and having all internal wouldbe amazing.


----------



## BassClef

Pier said:


> I have a 5K iMac and I've always hated that... the display is gorgeous but it will go to trash once the device has served its purpose.
> 
> I considered Luna Display but the performance is quite bad at 5K from what I've seen.


Don't forget that Apple offers trade-ins, even on older machines. I'm getting $250 for my 7 year old iMac.


----------



## Pier

aeliron said:


> The ethernet connection option may be better. They have a 90-day return, I think.


From what I've seen, even in the best case scenario 5K runs maximum at 45Hz.









5K Support and 'PC-to-Mac Mode' in Luna Display 5.1 - Astropad


You asked, we listened! We're ending the year with a BANG and bringing to life some of the top feature requests from our users: Support for 4K and 5K Resolution, PC-to-Mac Mode, Magic Keyboard Support, Teleprompter Mode for PC, and Office Mode for PC.




astropad.com





I saw a video a couple of months ago trying to use the 5K iMac as a display and it was quite choppy... but I can't seem to find it anymore. Although maybe it was before official 5K support 🤔


----------



## Pier

BassClef said:


> Don't forget that Apple offers trade-ins, even on older machines. I'm getting $250 for my 7 year old iMac.


Apple Mexico gives you only $450 maximum for an iMac.

Honestly I think I could get at least $1,000 if I decided to sell it.


----------



## danwool

Vik said:


> PACE Anti-Piracy announces iLok support for Apple Silicon | macOS Audio
> 
> 
> PRESS RELEASE – San Jose, California – PACE Anti-Piracy Inc., is pleased to announce full Native Apple Silicon support. After significant development and rigorous testing, iLok copy protection tools are now fully Apple Silicon compatible. The latest license support software update now includes...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.macosaudio.com


Anyone update iLok Manager to this new UB version? I'd like to hear from at least one user who's updated without issues before I jump on it.


----------



## Vik

danwool said:


> Anyone update iLok Manager to this new UB version? I'd like to hear from at least one user who's updated without issues before I jump on it.


This was published on Friday, so you probably have to wait a bit before you get any reliable info.


----------



## davidson

KEM said:


> Besides Izotope and Plugin Alliance, what are some really big companies that were still waiting on native Apple Silicon support from? All the lists I’ve seen online are old at this point and haven’t been updated


Spitfire, Orchestral Tools, Soundtoys, Native Instruments (bar kontakt), Best Service, UVI, Ujam, Output, Universal Audio, Oeksound...that's off the top of my head from my own system. No doubt there are a *lot* more than that we're still waiting on.


----------



## danwool

davidson said:


> Spitfire, Orchestral Tools, Soundtoys, Native Instruments (bar kontakt), Best Service, UVI, Ujam, Output, Universal Audio, Oeksound...that's off the top of my head from my own system. No doubt there are a *lot* more than that we're still waiting on.


Not sure if this has posted anywhere on this sprawling thread, but this list, that evolved from the KVR thread on UB compatibility, gets updated often. Daily or so. https://asaudio.tech


----------



## KEM

davidson said:


> Spitfire, Orchestral Tools, Soundtoys, Native Instruments (bar kontakt), Best Service, UVI, Ujam, Output, Universal Audio, Oeksound...that's off the top of my head from my own system. No doubt there are a *lot* more than that we're still waiting on.



Unacceptable!! Hope to see everything native by at least the end of the year


----------



## tack

colony nofi said:


> Turns out (the simple version) is that kontakt is repeatedly opening and closing the files over and over again, rather than reading in larger blocks. This severely impacts load speeds, so that for instance a 800MB/s drive will actually read at an equivalent 120MB/s for kontakt preload.


I did look at this a bit more last year and concluded that this behavior, while contributing to lower performance, isn't enough to explain the bulk of discrepancy between Kontakt's measured performance and what the system is capable of delivering. (Also, it's possible this behavior might be specific to Windows.) So I think my hypothesis in the Thread Processing section is a more likely explanation.

Either way, the conclusion is the same: NVMe's performance benefits are largely wasted on Kontakt. Not _completely_ wasted, to be sure, but the value proposition isn't fully realized.

That said, if you have more money than brains -- as I apparently do, BTW, because most of the flash storage in my DAW PC comes from NVMe -- then go for it.  (In other words, if you absolutely have to have the fastest sample loading times, NVMe will give it to you, it's just not nearly as fast as it _could_ be. And with DFD streaming, the benefit in practice is even more diminished.)


----------



## Grilled Cheese

tack said:


> I did look at this a bit more last year and concluded that this behavior, while contributing to lower performance, isn't enough to explain the bulk of discrepancy between Kontakt's measured performance and what the system is capable of delivering. (Also, it's possible this behavior might be specific to Windows.) So I think my hypothesis in the Thread Processing section is a more likely explanation.
> 
> Either way, the conclusion is the same: NVMe's performance benefits are largely wasted on Kontakt. Not _completely_ wasted, to be sure, but the value proposition isn't fully realized.
> 
> That said, if you have more money than brains -- as I apparently do, BTW, because most of the flash storage in my DAW PC comes from NVMe -- then go for it.  (In other words, if you absolutely have to have the fastest sample loading times, NVMe will give it to you, it's just not nearly as fast as it _could_ be. And with DFD streaming, the benefit in practice is even more diminished.)


Is Kontakt the worst offender when it comes to these loading speed constraints, or do others have similar issues?

Omnisphere for example?

I’ve noticed that Garritan CFX piano library loads much, much faster on the internal nvme of my new M1 Max MBP than it did via external SSDs. 

On the other hand, UVI workstation is still ghastly slow at loading libraries such as Virharmonic Bohemian Violin for example. From an SSD with 350 MB/S read speed to an NVME with 7GB/S… no obvious load time improvements have been gained.

Do you think we’ll ever see these plugins improving the way they utilise the speed of modern drives?


----------



## davidson

@Grilled Cheese You've gone from 350MBs sata to 5xxxMBs internal and there's been no load speed improvements with kontakt or UVI?


----------



## colony nofi

davidson said:


> @Grilled Cheese You've gone from 350MBs sata to 5xxxMBs internal and there's been no load speed improvements with kontakt or UVI?


Don’t know about UVI but there are performance benefits for kontakt, just nothing like what you might expect with the performance delta between the drive types.


----------



## Pier

Grilled Cheese said:


> Is Kontakt the worst offender when it comes to these loading speed constraints, or do others have similar issues?


The issue is not Kontakt per se, but the fact that drives are slower when reading lots of small files vs one big file.

I've written a couple of post in this thread about this.

See for example:





__





Mac Studio (New Hardware Mac Computer)!!!!


What I meant is that it won't matter much if you're using internal or external since you certainly won't hit max SSD speed when reading samples. Random reads (not sequential) are much slower so the 2800MB/s bus limit should be more than enough. Right, basically once the library is loaded into...




vi-control.net


----------



## Grilled Cheese

davidson said:


> @Grilled Cheese You've gone from 350MBs sata to 5xxxMBs internal and there's been no load speed improvements with kontakt or UVI?


I haven’t formally tested this but my casual observation is that there’s been no obvious improvement.

I was hoping to see near instant loading of large orchestral patches, but nope. Loading behaviour seems pretty close to what I was getting with my 2013 Mac Pro and external Crucial MX500 SSDs.

The load times for Bohemian violin and cello really disappointed me. To the point where I think twice about using them.


----------



## Grilled Cheese

Pier said:


> The issue is not Kontakt per se, but the fact that drives are slower when reading lots of small files vs one big file.
> 
> I've written a couple of post in this thread about this.
> 
> See for example:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac Studio (New Hardware Mac Computer)!!!!
> 
> 
> What I meant is that it won't matter much if you're using internal or external since you certainly won't hit max SSD speed when reading samples. Random reads (not sequential) are much slower so the 2800MB/s bus limit should be more than enough. Right, basically once the library is loaded into...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net


Thanks Pier. I read your posts and understand the effect of many small files on load times.

Still… I did see a big improvement on load times for Garritan CFX. Perhaps that’s because this is a piano library and each individual sample might be 30+ seconds of 24 bit audio, resulting in samples that are larger than average? Just a guess.


----------



## Vik

I read somewhere that one of the other sample players now can read circa 1000 mb/sec. Since many use 4-5 players or more, the total read speed will clearly be above the old limits we had.


----------



## Vik

Pardon my ignorance, but have any of you measured the Kontakt 6.7 read speed on M1 Ultra or Max?


----------



## KEM

Vik said:


> Pardon my ignorance, but have any of you measured the Kontakt 6.7 read speed on M1 Ultra or Max?



Nobody has an M1 Ultra lol


----------



## Vik

KEM said:


> Nobody has an M1 Ultra lol


Still: 





Mac13,2 - Geekbench Browser


Benchmark results for a Mac13,2 with an Apple M1 Ultra processor.



browser.geekbench.com


----------



## KEM

Vik said:


> Still:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac13,2 - Geekbench Browser
> 
> 
> Benchmark results for a Mac13,2 with an Apple M1 Ultra processor.
> 
> 
> 
> browser.geekbench.com



Aren’t those theoretical? I’m assuming they’ll be very close to accurate but no one knows for sure, and I ordered one myself already


----------



## Zedcars

According to Appleinsider those benchmarks amount to this:

M1 Ultra Multi-core: 21% faster than the fastest Intel Mac Pro.
Single-core: 56% faster.

Not reflective of our real-world usage of course. I’m excited but trepidatious to try it out.


----------



## Vik

KEM said:


> Aren’t those theoretical? I’m assuming they’ll be very close to accurate but no one knows for sure, and I ordered one myself already


Theoretical? They aren’t taylor made for VI use, of course – but they are based on real measurements.


----------



## davidson

Grilled Cheese said:


> Thanks Pier. I read your posts and understand the effect of many small files on load times.
> 
> Still… I did see a big improvement on load times for Garritan CFX. Perhaps that’s because this is a piano library and each individual sample might be 30+ seconds of 24 bit audio, resulting in samples that are larger than average? Just a guess.


From what I've read, improvements range from 0-300%, even on the same system. Seems to change on a library to library basis. Do those numbers sound about right to you @colony nofi ?


----------



## Vik

colony nofi said:


> We've run them on all our current studio computers. So:
> Mac Pro trashcans (I think all ours are 6 and 8 core versions from memory), iMacs (9900k is the last one we bought, but have earlier ones with the not so crash hot SSD+HDD combo), M1 mini, i7 minis of different ages, MBP from 2015 and 2018. I think I've even got data from our old cheese-graters.
> Have also run on a few pc's (including a 10920 workstation and a 10th gen intel nuc)
> 
> I have a kitted out 2021 MBP but have not run all our benchmarks on it


That answer seems to confirm that none of the low numbers you refer to in this thread are based on the new generation of M1 chips – unless I'm mistaken? 

You wrote about 150-ish mb/second read speed as a comment to the initial M1 chip as well, but if the new numbers also refer to the 1st generation of Apple Silicon chips, this may cause confusion or misunderstandings in a thread about the Mac Studio hardware, which uses either Max or Ultra.


----------



## marclawsonmusic

rnb_2 said:


> Just be aware that Target Display Mode only works on 2009-2014 iMacs, and doesn't work with any Retina (4k/5k) iMac.


Oh wow - I had no idea! What a waste!!!


----------



## Drumdude2112

KEM said:


> Aren’t those theoretical? I’m assuming they’ll be very close to accurate but no one knows for sure, and I ordered one myself already


Order'd an Ultra ? (I'm still weighing that or the max )


----------



## rnb_2

Vik said:


> Theoretical? They aren’t taylor made for VI use, of course – but they are based on real measurements.


I think @KEM was under the impression that those numbers were estimates, since none of these machines are available yet, but Apple employees (or someone with access to pre-release hardware) are known to start running Geekbench before new hardware releases - these unknown models start popping up in the database whenever something new is on the horizon. In any case, the numbers are real, not theoretical or estimates.


----------



## KEM

Drumdude2112 said:


> Order'd an Ultra ? (I'm still weighing that or the max )



Yep!!


----------



## KEM

rnb_2 said:


> I think @KEM was under the impression that those numbers were estimates, since none of these machines are available yet, but Apple employees (or someone with access to pre-release hardware) are known to start running Geekbench before new hardware releases - these unknown models start popping up in the database whenever something new is on the horizon. In any case, the numbers are real, not theoretical or estimates.



Interesting I wasn’t aware of that, good to know!! In any case I’m very excited


----------



## Pier

Grilled Cheese said:


> Still… I did see a big improvement on load times for Garritan CFX. Perhaps that’s because this is a piano library and each individual sample might be 30+ seconds of 24 bit audio, resulting in samples that are larger than average? Just a guess.


Maybe they have a strategy to bundle samples in some way?

Instead of loading one sample per velocity layer, note, articulation, etc, there is a way to put all the samples together into a single file. I don't know if Kontakt allows this tbh.


----------



## parapentep70

Pier said:


> Maybe they have a strategy to bundle samples in some way?
> 
> Instead of loading one sample per velocity layer, note, articulation, etc, there is a way to put all the samples together into a single file. I don't know if Kontakt allows this tbh.


Yes, you can always save a kontakt instrument like this. It is called a "monolith file". I don't do it ( and most people don't do it) because in most large libraries an individual sample can be used in a number of different "instruments" (sometimes a .ins file is just an articulation). This way you cannot use individual samples directly in your DAW, which is handy for some types of libraries (with .wav samples, not .ncw).

What makes an absolute difference in loading times is to teach the OS not to check EVERY .wav or .ncw sample file in your sampling folder for a possible virus. The second one is to "batch resave" the library so that the links to the thousands of files are refreshed.

I've seen these recommendations a number of times in Kontakt and also in the instructions to install large Kontakt libraries. I made the mistake to overlook them. The difference could be easily 20x to 50x. Now my large libraries load faster in good HDDs than they did before in NVMe SSDs. I do not have any need for more SSDs, Kontakt is really good managing the sample streaming (a true revolution at the time). 

Now I don't need multiple SSDs or save monolith files for quick Kontakt loading times.


----------



## Pier

rnb_2 said:


> I think @KEM was under the impression that those numbers were estimates, since none of these machines are available yet, but Apple employees (or someone with access to pre-release hardware) are known to start running Geekbench before new hardware releases - these unknown models start popping up in the database whenever something new is on the horizon. In any case, the numbers are real, not theoretical or estimates.


Yeah the Geekbench scores are real although there are a couple of issues I've discussed in previous comments.

The first one is GB does some weird stuff when doing multicore benchmarks. If you compare GB scores with, for example, CPU benchmark scores the results are quite different. Assuming the M1 Ultra is double the M1 Pro, in GB it is equivalent to a 3990X but in CPU benchmark it would be closer to a 5950X.

Cinebench is another typical source of CPU benchmarks which also doesn't align with GB scores.

The second point is rather how these chips will translate into real workloads for DAW use which are very different from all these CPU benchmarks calculating Pi digits, 3d rendering, encryption, etc.


----------



## KEM

Pier said:


> Yeah the Geekbench scores are real although there are a couple of issues I've discussed in previous comments.
> 
> The first one is GB does some weird stuff when doing multicore benchmarks. If you compare GB scores with, for example, CPU benchmark scores the results are quite different. Assuming the M1 Ultra is double the M1 Pro, in GB it is equivalent to a 3990X but in CPU benchmark it would be closer to a 5950X.
> 
> Cinebench is another typical source of CPU benchmarks which also doesn't align with GB scores.
> 
> The second point is rather how these chips will translate into real workloads for DAW use which are very different from all these CPU benchmarks calculating Pi digits, 3d rendering, encryption, etc.



Yeah when I saw the Geekbench score I was confused as I’ve only ever used Cpubenchmark, on Geekbench the M1 Ultra score is like 24k whereas the Xeon it’s compared to had score of around 43k on Cpubenchmark, so I’m assuming you can just double the Geekbench score to know what it would be on Cpubenchmark?


----------



## hayvel

I know my usecase is a bit edgy, but does anyone have a clue wether it would be possible to remote control a Mac Studio (or any AS Mac) with a Macbook Air M1 via local network? I need the flexibility of a laptop inside my appartment since there is no fixed place for audio work, but not for traveling. The Macbook would function as display and interface, the actual desktop and software would run on the studio. Since I have the laptop, just getting the studio would give me more processing power for the money.

I read that Mac OS has some kind of remote desktop support built in, but I wouldn't want to order the studio just to test this and discover it wouldn't work... anyone with experience in such a scenario?


----------



## KEM

hayvel said:


> I know my usecase is a bit edgy, but does anyone have a clue wether it would be possible to remote control a Mac Studio (or any AS Mac) with a Macbook Air M1 via local network? I need the flexibility of a laptop inside my appartment since there is no fixed place for audio work, but not for traveling. The Macbook would function as display and interface, the actual desktop and software would run on the studio. Since I have the laptop, just getting the studio would give me more processing power for the money.
> 
> I read that Mac OS has some kind of remote desktop support built in, but I wouldn't want to order the studio just to test this and discover it wouldn't work... anyone with experience in such a scenario?



You can’t use a MacBook Air as a display, honestly I’d recommend selling it and just getting a MacBook Pro with the M1 Max


----------



## rnb_2

hayvel said:


> I know my usecase is a bit edgy, but does anyone have a clue wether it would be possible to remote control a Mac Studio (or any AS Mac) with a Macbook Air M1 via local network? I need the flexibility of a laptop inside my appartment since there is no fixed place for audio work, but not for traveling. The Macbook would function as display and interface, the actual desktop and software would run on the studio. Since I have the laptop, just getting the studio would give me more processing power for the money.
> 
> I read that Mac OS has some kind of remote desktop support built in, but I wouldn't want to order the studio just to test this and discover it wouldn't work... anyone with experience in such a scenario?


Remote Desktop is built in to macOS, but I wouldn't want to use it for anything requiring real-time manipulation. You could try something like Luna Display, which does a pretty good job of streaming a remote Mac to another Mac's screen - it's good enough to watch video without issue, but once you bring sound sync into the equation, I'm not sure how it would hold up. You could look into VEP, but that would require a network cable between the two computers - probably not ideal for your situation.

I think I'd agree with @KEM on this - I think you'd be best served by a MacBook Pro. If you can get by with 32-64GB of RAM, the M1 Pro 14" isn't that much bigger than the M1 Air. Go with the M1 Pro if you only need 32GB, the M1 Max if you need 64. The astonishing thing is, for most DAW work, an M1 Pro MacBook Pro will be very similar to the Mac Studio M1 Max - the base 10-core CPU is the same, with the Max just adding GPU cores and extra video processing engines (in addition to raising the RAM ceiling).


----------



## rnb_2

Pier said:


> Yeah the Geekbench scores are real although there are a couple of issues I've discussed in previous comments.
> 
> The first one is GB does some weird stuff when doing multicore benchmarks. If you compare GB scores with, for example, CPU benchmark scores the results are quite different. Assuming the M1 Ultra is double the M1 Pro, in GB it is equivalent to a 3990X but in CPU benchmark it would be closer to a 5950X.
> 
> Cinebench is another typical source of CPU benchmarks which also doesn't align with GB scores.
> 
> The second point is rather how these chips will translate into real workloads for DAW use which are very different from all these CPU benchmarks calculating Pi digits, 3d rendering, encryption, etc.


Yeah, benchmarks are tricky - everybody is trying to recreate "real-world" usage as they see it. Cinebench is actually the opposite of that, just comparing rendering grunt, and is useful if that's one of the common things you do. The Mac world seems to have standardized on GeekBench because it's been available across all platforms for a long time, but as you point out regarding the GB vs CPU Benchmark situation, it's still only really useful for comparing Mac to Mac.


----------



## Pier

hayvel said:


> I read that Mac OS has some kind of remote desktop support built in, but I wouldn't want to order the studio just to test this and discover it wouldn't work... anyone with experience in such a scenario?


I mean, you could use any form of remote desktop solution (Screen Share, VNC, etc).

Would you be willing to work in lower display resolution with compressed audio? What about latency?

I agree with @KEM here. I think a good MBP would be a much better solution.


----------



## Pier

KEM said:


> so I’m assuming you can just double the Geekbench score to know what it would be on Cpubenchmark?


I don't think you can but, even if you could, it wouldn't have much relevance for DAW usage.

CPU synthetic benchmarks don't translate to track counts, number of plugins, etc. The best reference for this I've found are DAW bench results.

Eg: Google "DAW bench 3700X" or whatever CPU model you're interested in.











AMD Ryzen 3600, 3700X & 3900X DaWBench tested – 3 is it the magic number?







www.scanproaudio.info





The Scan Pro Audio guys do a terrific job of comparing CPUs.


----------



## KEM

Pier said:


> I don't think you can but, even if you could, it wouldn't have much relevance for DAW usage.
> 
> CPU synthetic benchmarks don't translate to track counts, number of plugins, etc. The best reference for this I've found are DAW bench results.
> 
> Eg: Google "DAW bench 3700X" or whatever CPU model you're interested in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AMD Ryzen 3600, 3700X & 3900X DaWBench tested – 3 is it the magic number?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.scanproaudio.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Scan Pro Audio guys do a terrific job of comparing CPUs.



Once everything is native to Apple Silicon I think the benchmarks will be amazing, but it looks like a lot of the big developers are taking their time to adopt


----------



## Michael Antrum

We are still waiting for Monterey support from many too.....


----------



## KEM

Michael Antrum said:


> We are still waiting for Monterey support from many too.....



True, and that seems even more unlikely that Apple Silicon support


----------



## BassClef

Apple Studio Display...

I have one of these on order to go with my Studio Ultra Mac. I ordered the normal display stand but am considering switching that order to the VESA mount.

My main concern with my existing 2014 iMac is that the viewing area of the display is about 6 inches above the desk top. I would like it lower so that I do not have to look up as much. (with my progressive eye glasses) I've never used a VESA mount and do not like the idea of the swinging arm design... preferring a stand type. The problem is that (with the VESA stand mounts I've seen) l I can not predict how low I can get the monitor, because I have no specs on the Apple Studio Display's distance from VESA mount to bottom.

Thoughts?


----------



## tack

Pier said:


> The issue is not Kontakt per se, but the fact that drives are slower when reading lots of small files vs one big file.


This's true -- although more influenced by filesystem design than the drives themselves -- but many Kontakt libraries are distributed with large packed files. The library I tested with was CSS whose samples are contained in 17 2GB nkx files. So the substandard performance I measured wasn't something we can blame on file sprawl, but rather with Kontakt's own internal architecture in terms of how it reads samples.



Grilled Cheese said:


> Is Kontakt the worst offender when it comes to these loading speed constraints, or do others have similar issues? Omnisphere for example?


I'm afraid I only invested the time investigating Kontakt, since that's by a good margin what I use most. I have a vague recollection that Omnisphere did a pretty good job with patch loading, but I didn't record any of those measurements.




Grilled Cheese said:


> On the other hand, UVI workstation is still ghastly slow at loading libraries such as Virharmonic Bohemian Violin for example. From an SSD with 350 MB/S read speed to an NVME with 7GB/S… no obvious load time improvements have been gained.


Oh yeah, UVI Workstation is inexcusably brutal. Virharmonic abandoning UVI is very welcome in my books.



Grilled Cheese said:


> Do you think we’ll ever see these plugins improving the way they utilise the speed of modern drives?


I guess I'd say I'm reservedly optimistic. If my idea about Kontakt's poor performance is right -- and the fact that the I/O queue depth stays at 1 while preloading the instrument is IMO a reasonable sign that it is -- it might not even that difficult a code change. (It isn't in principle anyway, but if Kontakt is a mess of spaghetti code it could well be much harder.)

It's just a question of motivation. It's easy for me to see how Kontakt's design in this regard served it perfectly in an era of spinning rust. But as more of us move to keep our sample libraries on flash storage and then publicly complain about how these things are inexplicably slow, I'd like to think that motivation will increase.


----------



## synergy543

Hmmm....so this new Studio Mac sucks up dust from the bottom and is supposed to blow it all out through the top. What happens to the dust that does collect inside? Can you easily open this thing up to clean it? 
At least the beauty of the 2013 Trash Can is its easy to open and clean.


----------



## seclusion3

Hopefully know in a week. That is my issue now with my 2017 iMac. In my climate it’s very dusty, needing to be opened up 2x's a year and cleaned


----------



## synergy543

seclusion3 said:


> Hopefully know in a week. That is my issue now with my 2017 iMac. In my climate it’s very dusty, needing to be opened up 2x's a year and cleaned


Well, don't just use a wimpy can of air. Do it right. Get some ear muffs, and pull out the leaf blower from the garage, and do a "proper dusting". Its very satisfying. But be sure to leave the room for 20 minutes or so afterwards until the dust settles.


----------



## KEM

Me once I get my Mac Studio:


----------



## alcorey

KEM said:


> Me once I get my Mac Studio:


Loving the 45 year old Roland GR 500 - I bought one of the first ones that came out in the late 70's.
It didn't even have a real oscillator! Visiting a NAMM show shortly thereafter and speaking to someone in the Roland booth, they told me they were now using real oscillators and to bring my unit in to the Roland factory in LA and they would retrofit it with an oscillator - which I did. It was a little buggy though and it always took a little while to settle in and stabilize. It was always fun to gig with back then because people would look and wonder where those sounds were coming from. That Ibanez (Les Paul copy) guitar was really cool and well made also - even playing just the straight guitar it would sustain forever because of that huge magnet. I sold it a few years ago because it was just sitting and I felt maybe someone else should keep it going.


----------



## IFM

So who here has tested load times/voice count using the internal drives on current M1 machines (such as the current 16gb Mini) vs external? 

After all this discussion and initially changing my order to the 8TB version, I'm starting to rethink my order if the same issue is true. My only hesitation to changing my order again is that, besides a longer wait time, the bottleneck of going through the TB3 interface is also where things slow down. I've always kept sample libraries separated on multiple drives thinking that would give me much higher voice counts. Cost-wise it seems a wash to get something that's half as fast such as the blade.


----------



## aeliron

IFM said:


> So who here has tested load times/voice count using the internal drives on current M1 machines (such as the current 16gb Mini) vs external?
> 
> After all this discussion and initially changing my order to the 8TB version, I'm starting to rethink my order if the same issue is true. My only hesitation to changing my order again is that, besides a longer wait time, the bottleneck of going through the TB3 interface is also where things slow down. I've always kept sample libraries separated on multiple drives thinking that would give me much higher voice counts. Cost-wise it seems a wash to get something that's half as fast such as the blade.


Seems to be no neck on the bottle: https://vi-control.net/community/th...ples-on-internal-ssd-or-external-ssds.118950/


----------



## gsilbers

IFM said:


> So who here has tested load times/voice count using the internal drives on current M1 machines (such as the current 16gb Mini) vs external?
> 
> After all this discussion and initially changing my order to the 8TB version, I'm starting to rethink my order if the same issue is true. My only hesitation to changing my order again is that, besides a longer wait time, the bottleneck of going through the TB3 interface is also where things slow down. I've always kept sample libraries separated on multiple drives thinking that would give me much higher voice counts. Cost-wise it seems a wash to get something that's half as fast such as the blade.



Another thing Im looking out for is the way to do backups. IF apple is making it harder for bootable backups and you have to save like 6tb of stuff every time or doesnt let you do OS b/u in apple silicon/monterrey, then it might sway me to buy external. The info on CCC (copy carbon) is a little odd. I had to use time machine for my macbook air m1. the backup stuff has changed a lot.


----------



## IFM

gsilbers said:


> Another thing Im looking out for is the way to do backups. IF apple is making it harder for bootable backups and you have to save like 6tb of stuff every time or doesnt let you do OS b/u in apple silicon/monterrey, then it might sway me to buy external. The info on CCC (copy carbon) is a little odd. I had to use time machine for my macbook air m1. the backup stuff has changed a lot.


True but it has been that way for a while. I've seen tricks mentioned about booting to external drives on M1 but otherwise if you use something like QRecall you can snapshot backward.


----------



## Dewdman42

If I were getting a Mac studio, I would personally get 2TB drive and use external storage for everything else. I do not think it makes sense at all to pay big bucks for a lot of internal storage on the Mac Studio.

Regarding bootable backups, its definitely possible to create a bootable back-up of Monterey using CCC. You just have to use their so called "Legacy" feature. You cannot incrementally backup that, nor use snapshots, etc. So the best strategy for CCC is to do both. You create one bootable legacy backup occasionally, which is always a complete backup that will take an hour or two to run to create a brand new bootable backup.. That doesn't necessarily need to be nightly. Then also do a normal CCC backup with snapshots, etc.. That will do the incremental backups every hour or whatever schedule you want and give you the ability to go back time machine style to get a certain version of any given file, etc.. And all of that can and should probably be to an external drive, as the built in Mac Studio drive is way too expensive to justify using up a bunch of space for that.

I keep my sample libraries on a completely seperate drive or partition for exactly the reason that I don't want it included in my nightly backups. Sample Data is all replaceable, though granted it could take some hours to restore it all. There is not much use in having it all back-up using up storage media space. But if you need an absolutely rock solid bootable backup that includes all your sample libraries so that inf something goes wrong you boot from the other drive and keep working without missing any time at all, then still I reccomend using CCC occasionally to create a bootable backup on external storage device....and if you're using 8TB of samples...then so be it.

But really if you think about it, an even better solution would be...you keep your boot drive more simple..no samples...just software. less then 1TB most likely. I find mind ends up getting some non critical simples like LogicPro crap, etc. Alright. So make a bootable clone of that once a week. Keep your samples on a seperate external drive. Back up that drive occasionally also. Your nightly backups only backup your 1TB boot drive. When you add new sample libraries, back up the sample volume.

In the case of break down you boot from the backup boot drive and/or if the sample drive goes bad, you replace it with the sample drive backup...and meanwhile your nightly backups will be much more manageable in size.

I personally feel 8TB internal drive on the Mac Studio is unnecessary expense.


----------



## rnb_2

Dewdman42 said:


> If I were getting a Mac studio, I would personally get 2TB drive and use external storage for everything else. I do not think it makes sense at all to pay big bucks for a lot of internal storage on the Mac Studio.
> 
> Regarding bootable backups, its definitely possible to create a bootable back-up of Monterey using CCC. You just have to use their so called "Legacy" feature. You cannot incrementally backup that, nor use snapshots, etc. So the best strategy for CCC is to do both. You create one bootable legacy backup occasionally, which is always a complete backup that will take an hour or two to run to create a brand new bootable backup.. That doesn't necessarily need to be nightly. Then also do a normal CCC backup with snapshots, etc.. That will do the incremental backups every hour or whatever schedule you want and give you the ability to go back time machine style to get a certain version of any given file, etc.. And all of that can and should probably be to an external drive, as the built in Mac Studio drive is way too expensive to justify using up a bunch of space for that.
> 
> I keep my sample libraries on a completely seperate drive or partition for exactly the reason that I don't want it included in my nightly backups. Sample Data is all replaceable, though granted it could take some hours to restore it all. There is not much use in having it all back-up using up storage media space. But if you need an absolutely rock solid bootable backup that includes all your sample libraries so that inf something goes wrong you boot from the other drive and keep working without missing any time at all, then still I reccomend using CCC occasionally to create a bootable backup on external storage device....and if you're using 8TB of samples...then so be it.
> 
> But really if you think about it, an even better solution would be...you keep your boot drive more simple..no samples...just software. less then 1TB most likely. I find mind ends up getting some non critical simples like LogicPro crap, etc. Alright. So make a bootable clone of that once a week. Keep your samples on a seperate external drive. Back up that drive occasionally also. Your nightly backups only backup your 1TB boot drive. When you add new sample libraries, back up the sample volume.
> 
> In the case of break down you boot from the backup boot drive and/or if the sample drive goes bad, you replace it with the sample drive backup...and meanwhile your nightly backups will be much more manageable in size.
> 
> I personally feel 8TB internal drive on the Mac Studio is unnecessary expense.


For a desktop, I think this is the best course of action. A laptop might change the calculus a bit, but for a machine that's not moving regularly, a smaller internal with most things hosted on fast externals seems like the optimal setup.


----------



## Symfoniq

Dewdman42 said:


> If I were getting a Mac studio, I would personally get 2TB drive and use external storage for everything else. I do not think it makes sense at all to pay big bucks for a lot of internal storage on the Mac Studio.
> 
> Regarding bootable backups, its definitely possible to create a bootable back-up of Monterey using CCC. You just have to use their so called "Legacy" feature. You cannot incrementally backup that, nor use snapshots, etc. So the best strategy for CCC is to do both. You create one bootable legacy backup occasionally, which is always a complete backup that will take an hour or two to run to create a brand new bootable backup.. That doesn't necessarily need to be nightly. Then also do a normal CCC backup with snapshots, etc.. That will do the incremental backups every hour or whatever schedule you want and give you the ability to go back time machine style to get a certain version of any given file, etc.. And all of that can and should probably be to an external drive, as the built in Mac Studio drive is way too expensive to justify using up a bunch of space for that.
> 
> I keep my sample libraries on a completely seperate drive or partition for exactly the reason that I don't want it included in my nightly backups. Sample Data is all replaceable, though granted it could take some hours to restore it all. There is not much use in having it all back-up using up storage media space. But if you need an absolutely rock solid bootable backup that includes all your sample libraries so that inf something goes wrong you boot from the other drive and keep working without missing any time at all, then still I reccomend using CCC occasionally to create a bootable backup on external storage device....and if you're using 8TB of samples...then so be it.
> 
> But really if you think about it, an even better solution would be...you keep your boot drive more simple..no samples...just software. less then 1TB most likely. I find mind ends up getting some non critical simples like LogicPro crap, etc. Alright. So make a bootable clone of that once a week. Keep your samples on a seperate external drive. Back up that drive occasionally also. Your nightly backups only backup your 1TB boot drive. When you add new sample libraries, back up the sample volume.
> 
> In the case of break down you boot from the backup boot drive and/or if the sample drive goes bad, you replace it with the sample drive backup...and meanwhile your nightly backups will be much more manageable in size.
> 
> I personally feel 8TB internal drive on the Mac Studio is unnecessary expense.


I agree with all of this.

I have about 15 TB of SSD storage in my 2019 Mac Pro, including the boot drive. The boot drive doesn't store any sample data. It gets cloned regularly to another SSD via CCC.

The SSD volumes containing samples are periodically backed up to a NAS device via CCC. Running the clone task takes about a day (more if there is a lot of data to transfer due to newly installed libs).

My next NAS device will support 10GigE with SSD cache, at which point I may not bother storing any samples on the Mac itself.


----------



## IFM

Dewdman42 said:


> But really if you think about it, an even better solution would be...you keep your boot drive more simple..no samples...just software. less then 1TB most likely. I find mind ends up getting some non critical simples like LogicPro crap, etc. Alright. So make a bootable clone of that once a week. Keep your samples on a seperate external drive. Back up that drive occasionally also. Your nightly backups only backup your 1TB boot drive. When you add new sample libraries, back up the sample volume.
> 
> In the case of break down you boot from the backup boot drive and/or if the sample drive goes bad, you replace it with the sample drive backup...and meanwhile your nightly backups will be much more manageable in size.
> 
> I personally feel 8TB internal drive on the Mac Studio is unnecessary expense.


You do make some excellent points. Some of the M.2 external drives I've seen have been pretty expensive or more than the upgrade, but if I did 2 x 4TB then that's probably just as efficient.


----------



## Dewdman42

Even the external drives, there is a diminishing return to getting anything more than simple SATA3 SSD drives.. Get affordable cost per TB, particularly for Sample storage. It would be interesting to see some comparison benchmarks in terms of loading projects and sample streaming to compare between SATA3 and M.2 drivers from Tb4 external enclosures. Perhaps in the future we will see that, but I would just not invest a lot of money trying to make those faster..its a diminishing return...


----------



## rnb_2

Dewdman42 said:


> Even the external drives, there is a diminishing return to getting anything more than simple SATA3 SSD drives.. Get affordable cost per TB, particularly for Sample storage. It would be interesting to see some comparison benchmarks in terms of loading projects and sample streaming to compare between SATA3 and M.2 drivers from Tb4 external enclosures. Perhaps in the future we will see that, but I would just not invest a lot of money trying to make those faster..its a diminishing return...


That I disagree with - while the performance improvement for samples may not be huge, there's very little cost difference, so why not go with the more modern format and have more flexibility down the road?


----------



## Dewdman42

if cost is the same, by all means get the new ones...unless of of course you already have all your samples stored on Sata3 drives, in which case I say, no reason to buy new ones.


----------



## rnb_2

Dewdman42 said:


> if cost is the same, by all means get the new ones...unless of of course you already have all your samples stored on Sata3 drives, in which case I say, no reason to buy new ones.


Agreed on that - I wouldn't replace SATA3 drives with NVMe just for performance. A SATA3 RAID actually matches up very well with Thunderbolt 3 & 4 data bandwidth, whereas NVMe is already throttled in single-drive external applications with the latest drives.


----------



## samphony

IFM said:


> So who here has tested load times/voice count using the internal drives on current M1 machines (such as the current 16gb Mini) vs external?
> 
> After all this discussion and initially changing my order to the 8TB version, I'm starting to rethink my order if the same issue is true. My only hesitation to changing my order again is that, besides a longer wait time, the bottleneck of going through the TB3 interface is also where things slow down. I've always kept sample libraries separated on multiple drives thinking that would give me much higher voice counts. Cost-wise it seems a wash to get something that's half as fast such as the blade.


I’m glad that I ordered the 8tb internal with my m1max 16“. That allows me to work on the air plane or at the AirBnB I’m at right now. I like it so much that for convenience alone having such a huge ssd could be the way to go. but you probably cant go wrong with any ssd drive if you have your external workflow already established.


----------



## IFM

rnb_2 said:


> Agreed on that - I wouldn't replace SATA3 drives with NVMe just for performance. A SATA3 RAID actually matches up very well with Thunderbolt 3 & 4 data bandwidth, whereas NVMe is already throttled in single-drive external applications with the latest drives.


I'm actually using two 4-bay drive chassis (one is the OWC ThunderBay4 and the other is a different brand) and they are both TB3. Right now there are 6 x 1TB sample SSDs and 1 x 512GB Projects drive. My original design idea here was that spreading the Samples out across multiple SSDs would give me the best voice counts and be able to get as much throughput on the TB3 bus as possible.

At least with the current MP6,1 which is only TB2 I've not run into dropped samples yet...it has all been CPU limitations.


----------



## IFM

samphony said:


> I’m glad that I ordered the 8tb internal with my m1max 16“. That allows me to work on the air plane or at the AirBnB I’m at right now. I like it so much that for convenience alone having such a huge ssd could be the way to go. but you probably cant go wrong with any ssd drive if you have your external workflow already established.


Makes sense for a portable rig for sure!


----------



## nas

So if one is going to use an external SSD for the sample library with the Mac Studio, what are some good options? Would you use an enclosure or docking station... with an internal type SSD? or use a dedicated SSD external drive (something like a SanDisk, G-Technology, WD.. ) ?


----------



## Dewdman42

IFM said:


> I'm actually using two 4-bay drive chassis (one is the OWC ThunderBay4 and the other is a different brand) and they are both TB3. Right now there are 6 x 1TB sample SSDs and 1 x 512GB Projects drive. My original design idea here was that spreading the Samples out across multiple SSDs would give me the best voice counts and be able to get as much throughput on the TB3 bus as possible.
> 
> At least with the current MP6,1 which is only TB2 I've not run into dropped samples yet...it has all be CPU limitations.


if it were me I'd just plug that into your new MacStudio and keep working...


----------



## rnb_2

nas said:


> So if one is going to use an external SSD for the sample library with the Mac Studio, what are some good options? Would you use an enclosure or docking station... with an internal type SSD? or use a dedicated SSD external drive (something like a SanDisk, G-Technology, WD.. ) ?


It really depends. You no longer really need to go with multiple drives for performance (unless you already have them), so it's more a question of how much space you need and how many ports you're willing to use (you can also daisy chain via Thunderbolt). How much sample content to you have?


----------



## nas

rnb_2 said:


> It really depends. You no longer really need to go with multiple drives for performance (unless you already have them), so it's more a question of how much space you need and how many ports you're willing to use (you can also daisy chain via Thunderbolt). How much sample content to you have?


You actually just answered one of the questions on my mind - that being having multiple drives for performance.

I'm currently running VEP on my slave with multiple SSD's to do most of the heavy lifting. I have between 2-3 TB in my sample library and honestly don't see myself going over 4 TB. It would be nice to just have all of that on one 4 TB drive if I can get the same or better performance. Plus, if I can save a little bit getting that on an external rather than 4 TB of Apple tax then I can allocate more to RAM. I'm pretty convinced that I would like to go with the M1 Ultra base model chip, so the question becomes... is 128 GB of unified memory worth it? and can I get solid performance and save by moving it to an external?

I do run fairly large templates in the 200-300 VI track count (rather than 1,000 plus trks) as I use an articulation switcher, but I'm still loading a sizable amount of samples into my template.


----------



## rnb_2

nas said:


> You actually just answered one of the questions on my mind - that being having multiple drives for performance.
> 
> I'm currently running VEP on my slave with multiple SSD's to do most of the heavy lifting. I have between 2-3 TB in my sample library and honestly don't see myself going over 4 TB. It would be nice to just have all of that on one 4 TB drive if I can get the same or better performance. Plus, if I can save a little bit getting that on an external rather than 4 TB of Apple tax then I can allocate more to RAM. I'm pretty convinced that I would like to go with the M1 Ultra base model chip, so the question becomes... is 128 GB of unified memory worth it? and can I get solid performance and save by moving it to an external?
> 
> I do run fairly large templates in the 200-300 VI track count (rather than 1,000 plus trks) as I use an articulation switcher, but I'm still loading a sizable amount of samples into my template.


I'd go with either a single 4TB NVMe, or possibly 2x2TB in the new Sonnet Thunderbolt dock/SSD enclosure that just came out. If you need more USB-A or USB-C ports than the Mac Studio has on board, the combo unit could make sense. Depending on what/how many ports you need, you might still be better off with a drive enclosure and Thunderbolt dock, though.


----------



## SupremeFist

IFM said:


> My only hesitation to changing my order again is that, besides a longer wait time, the bottleneck of going through the TB3 interface is also where things slow down.


I really doubt TB3 is going to be a bottleneck any time soon. Granted I'm just on an i7 Mini but all my samples are streaming off T5/T7 SSDs connected to a single TB hub and there is no issue at all there so far.


----------



## KEM

Has anyone used Migration Assistant? That’s what I’m probably gonna use to transfer everything over once my Mac Studio gets here but I’ve never used it before, I’ve actually never even switched computers before so I have no idea how this is gonna go. I’m looking to have my Mac Studio be exactly what my current MacBook Pro is (just with Monterey instead of Big Sur obviously)


----------



## Nachivnik

KEM said:


> Has anyone used Migration Assistant? That’s what I’m probably gonna use to transfer everything over once my Mac Studio gets here but I’ve never used it before, I’ve actually never even switched computers before so I have no idea how this is gonna go. I’m looking to have my Mac Studio be exactly what my current MacBook Pro is (just with Monterey instead of Big Sur obviously)


Are you migrating from an M1 Mac? If it's Intel-based, I would recommend against migration.


----------



## rnb_2

Nachivnik said:


> Are you migrating from an M1 Mac? If it's Intel-based, I would recommend against migration.


Yeah, I agree - migrating from an Intel to M1 is not something I would recommend. It's a pain, but I'd just do it step by step. You have the old machine to refer to along the way.


----------



## KEM

Nachivnik said:


> Are you migrating from an M1 Mac? If it's Intel-based, I would recommend against migration.





rnb_2 said:


> Yeah, I agree - migrating from an Intel to M1 is not something I would recommend. It's a pain, but I'd just do it step by step. You have the old machine to refer to along the way.



I watched some YouTube videos where people did it and they didn’t seem to have any issues because of it, but if not Migration Assistant what should I do to transfer my exact computer over?


----------



## rnb_2

KEM said:


> I watched some YouTube videos where people did it and they didn’t seem to have any issues because of it, but if not Migration Assistant what should I do to transfer my exact computer over?


I'm not saying it absolutely won't work, but that's not the route I'd go. A stray preference file could cause unpredictable issues down the line, and it can be hard to track down.

Do you have a backup drive (Time Machine or other)? If you want to try migrating your data, I would recommend that over doing a direct connection between computers.


----------



## KEM

rnb_2 said:


> I'm not saying it absolutely won't work, but that's not the route I'd go. A stray preference file could cause unpredictable issues down the line, and it can be hard to track down.
> 
> Do you have a backup drive (Time Machine or other)? If you want to try migrating your data, I would recommend that over doing a direct connection between computers.



I don’t but since I work at Best Buy I can get one really cheap, should I do a Time Machine backup onto an external, and then use that backup to setup the new Mac?


----------



## rnb_2

KEM said:


> I don’t but since I work at Best Buy I can get one really cheap, should I do a Time Machine backup onto an external, and then use that backup to setup the new Mac?


Yeah, that would be the best option if you want to try Migration Assistant.


----------



## KEM

rnb_2 said:


> Yeah, that would be the best option if you want to try Migration Assistant.



I’ll do that then!!


----------



## rnb_2

nas said:


> So if one is going to use an external SSD for the sample library with the Mac Studio, what are some good options? Would you use an enclosure or docking station... with an internal type SSD? or use a dedicated SSD external drive (something like a SanDisk, G-Technology, WD.. ) ?


A decent option just popped up - https://www.amazon.com/Crucial-4TB-Portable-SSD-CT4000X6SSD9/dp/B08W1KDM9K (Crucial 4TB USB 3.2 SSD). Not sure if the price will apply for everyone, but <$90US per TB is a pretty good deal right now.


----------



## Vik

Nachivnik said:


> Are you migrating from an M1 Mac? If it's Intel-based, I would recommend against migration.


Agree, and I generally think it's a better idea to start with everything as fresh as possible, and import only the files you know you need – when you need them.


----------



## KEM

Vik said:


> Agree, and I generally think it's a better idea to start with everything as fresh as possible, and import only the files you know you need – when you need them.



So just transfer over all of my project files and personal stuff and then redownload my plugins and samples from their latest versions online?


----------



## Vik

rnb_2 said:


> A decent option just popped up - https://www.amazon.com/Crucial-4TB-Portable-SSD-CT4000X6SSD9/dp/B08W1KDM9K (Crucial 4TB USB 3.2 SSD). Not sure if the price will apply for everyone, but <$90US per TB is a pretty good deal right now.


Is the read speed 800 MB/sec or 800 Mb/sec?


----------



## rnb_2

Vik said:


> Is the read speed 800 MB/sec or 800 Mb/sec?


800MB/s - so ~1.5x faster than SATA3 over USB, but not as fast as Thunderbolt.


----------



## samphony

KEM said:


> Has anyone used Migration Assistant? That’s what I’m probably gonna use to transfer everything over once my Mac Studio gets here but I’ve never used it before, I’ve actually never even switched computers before so I have no idea how this is gonna go. I’m looking to have my Mac Studio be exactly what my current MacBook Pro is (just with Monterey instead of Big Sur obviously)


Yes me. From intel to m1 no problem.


----------



## KEM

samphony said:


> Yes me. From intel to m1 no problem.



That’s what I like to hear!! Do you disable iLok licenses and all the stuff that’s licensed to a specific machine before you transfer it? Or did you go in and transfer all the licenses once the new computer was setup? (Same goes with stuff from Spitfire Player, SINE, Native Access, etc.)


----------



## samphony

KEM said:


> That’s what I like to hear!! Do you disable iLok licenses and all the stuff that’s licensed to a specific machine before you transfer it? Or did you go in and transfer all the licenses once the new computer was setup? (Same goes with stuff from Spitfire Player, SINE, Native Access, etc.)


Most iLok stuff is on the dongle and the iLok cloud licenses I activated once migration was done. All others I’ve activated after the migration where necessary. 

It might be best if everything on the intel side is already up to date.


----------



## KEM

samphony said:


> Most iLok stuff is on the dongle and the iLok cloud licenses I activated once migration was done. All others I’ve activated after the migration where necessary.
> 
> It might be best if everything on the intel side is already up to date.



I’ve been going through all the plugins I own and making sure I have the most up to date versions of everything, right before I start the migration process I’ll probably go through everything once again just to make sure, so hopefully it’ll be a smooth transition


----------



## colony nofi

Vik said:


> That answer seems to confirm that none of the low numbers you refer to in this thread are based on the new generation of M1 chips – unless I'm mistaken?
> 
> You wrote about 150-ish mb/second read speed as a comment to the initial M1 chip as well, but if the new numbers also refer to the 1st generation of Apple Silicon chips, this may cause confusion or misunderstandings in a thread about the Mac Studio hardware, which uses either Max or Ultra.


The M1 mini IS current generation apple silicon - unless I'm the one not understanding you. . Very possible.

So yes - kontakt *loading in* as LOW as approximately (its all approx due to the way the testing is kinda "man in the middle" - 150MB/s on an apple silicon mac mini happens. And blackmagic speed test on that internal drive sees 2700MB/s. (But that is absolute BEST case scenario and something like kontakt will NEVER reach those marks even if it was programmed with the most efficient way of reading data possible... look up block sizes). Indeed, you'll learn a tonne very quickly by downloading ATTO (or other similar drive benchmarking software!)

Just for fun - here's the results from my 2018 MB (2TB internal I think) - in dark mode, and in light mode is the m1max mac book pro 8TB internal drive.


----------



## Vik

colony nofi said:


> The M1 mini IS current generation apple silicon - unless I'm the one not understanding you. . Very possible.
> 
> So yes - kontakt *loading in* as LOW as approximately (its all approx due to the way the testing is kinda "man in the middle" - 150MB/s on an apple silicon mac mini happens.


I remember that you wrote, some months ago, that you had *not* tested drive throughput for non-rosetta (ie, native m1) situations, and that the result was a read time of 150 megabyte/second.

With Kontakt being available in native Apple Silicon mode, and new and more powerful AS computers are out (Max, Pro and Ultra)... are you saying that with Kontakt in native mode and using the new Ultra, the total read speed is still only 150 megabyte/second? Since this thread is about the new Ultra, and of course because Kontakt now is AS native, I'm simply curious if these 'old' numbers are still is relevant.


----------



## colony nofi

ah I see what you mean. Yes, our m1 tests were rosetta only.
I will report back when I get figures on one of our m1s. See - I WAS the one not understanding you


----------



## Grilled Cheese

colony nofi said:


> ah I see what you mean. Yes, our m1 tests were rosetta only.
> I will report back when I get figures on one of our m1s. See - I WAS the one not understanding you


Thanks! Looking forward to your non-rosetta results!


----------



## khollister

rnb_2 said:


> 800MB/s - so ~1.5x faster than SATA3 over USB, but not as fast as Thunderbolt.


And you won't see 800 MBs on an M1 - based on my experience with Samsung T7's and everything I've read, you'll likely get 600-650 MBs best case. The question of whether that matters for sample streaming is an open question. And it is interesting that the spec'd speed is less than for similar Sandisk or Samsung USB NVMe drives, so you probably get what you pay for.

I will reiterate that the prices Apple charges for the internal SSD upgrades are expensive but not a ripoff. If you compare the cost of 4-8TB of thunderbolt storage, the Apple costs are not way out of line. And of course there is no comparison on performance (whether you think you need it or not). You can certainly get lower performance (usually much lower) solutions for less money, but you know the saying - "Good, Fast, Cheap - pick 2".

I can't speak to streaming performance, but with the right sample player (e.g. VSL Synchron series). there are very significant differences in load times between my internal 8TB and my external TB3 NVMe (which tests out at 2500 MBs - pretty much the max you will get on data from TB3/4).

Putting stuff that you don't use much or that is undemanding from a streaming standpoint is fine on an average performance USB drive. But I would be very reluctant to put mainline orchestral libs on a "slow lane" device. 

IMHO, YMMV, yada, yada, yada ...


----------



## holywilly

Do rackmount NVMe ssd docking system or enclosure exist? Like Blackmagic’s Multidock. 

I’ve been using SATA ssd’s (8 SSD via 2 Multidocks) for years and would prefer rackmount unit, to keep my studio clean and tight. 

Keep everything external is beneficial if I wanna pull the trigger for Mac Studio.


----------



## Vik

Grilled Cheese said:


> Thanks! Looking forward to your non-rosetta results!


So do I, but are results from the original and most basic M1 Macs still relevant?

Of course, non-Rosetta means a lot, since Rosetta apparently was a main bottleneck when Kontakt performance was discussed, but testing all this on the newest Apple Silicon Macs (especially Ultra), or at least M1 Max would make a lot more sense now when these Macs are out. Why? Because we usually measure performance by counting how many tracks one can get without hiccups, and because Apple made the Pro/Max and Rosetta for a reason: increased performance.

Personally, I wouldn't even consider a M1 'plain' for orchestral work now when the other Macs have been released – for several reasons, including the fact that the first M1 Macs only could go up to 16 gb RAM. They were never meant for VI work.


----------



## marclawsonmusic

KEM said:


> I’ve been going through all the plugins I own and making sure I have the most up to date versions of everything, right before I start the migration process I’ll probably go through everything once again just to make sure, so hopefully it’ll be a smooth transition


Hey @KEM, I've not used Apple's migration tool, but as someone who has spent the last 30 years in IT... _IMHO_, I'd go with a clean install versus restoring a backup from a different (older) machine. 

Backups are great when you are restoring to the _same _machine, but you might introduce problems and instabilities when moving to different hardware (especially newer hardware with a different processor architecture).

Make a list and clean-install EVERYTHING - DAW, apps, plugins, etc. - on your nice new clean Mac Studio. Of course, you can copy your project files and samples (I keep these on external drives, so easy to migrate), but I'd manually re-install the rest.

Just my 2 cents... I think you will get better results this way.


----------



## rnb_2

khollister said:


> And you won't see 800 MBs on an M1 - based on my experience with Samsung T7's and everything I've read, you'll likely get 600-650 MBs best case. The question of whether that matters for sample streaming is an open question. And it is interesting that the spec'd speed is less than for similar Sandisk or Samsung USB NVMe drives, so you probably get what you pay for.
> 
> I will reiterate that the prices Apple charges for the internal SSD upgrades are expensive but not a ripoff. If you compare the cost of 4-8TB of thunderbolt storage, the Apple costs are not way out of line. And of course there is no comparison on performance (whether you think you need it or not). You can certainly get lower performance (usually much lower) solutions for less money, but you know the saying - "Good, Fast, Cheap - pick 2".
> 
> I can't speak to streaming performance, but with the right sample player (e.g. VSL Synchron series). there are very significant differences in load times between my internal 8TB and my external TB3 NVMe (which tests out at 2500 MBs - pretty much the max you will get on data from TB3/4).
> 
> Putting stuff that you don't use much or that is undemanding from a streaming standpoint is fine on an average performance USB drive. But I would be very reluctant to put mainline orchestral libs on a "slow lane" device.
> 
> IMHO, YMMV, yada, yada, yada ...


I keep forgetting about USB performance, since I don't have much in the way of non-Thunderbolt storage. Thanks for the reminder!


----------



## wayne_rowley

How bad is USB performance on AS Macs vs. Intel? On my Intel 2018 Mac Mini I have a couple of SATA SSDs connected via USB 3.1 and get around 450MB per second read and write. I use them for sample storage and don't have an issue with performance in Logic. 

Will this be worse on USB on an AS Mac?


----------



## Jett Hitt

I have been exploring my drive options since I only ordered the 2TB model. The best solution that I have been able to come up with is this:



Combined with this:



There are plenty of videos on youtube showing the performance of this this with a Mac Mini which, even in the worst case scenario, should be as good or better on the Mac Sutdio.





Apparently it varies greatly depending upon which NMVe is used. (Above picture is from the Samsung 980 Pro).

I know that in the real world with samples it will be slower, but this seems like the most bang for the least buck. Others may think otherwise. @rnb_2 might have thoughts.


----------



## rnb_2

Jett Hitt said:


> I have been exploring my drive options since I only ordered the 2TB model. The best solution that I have been able to come up with is this:
> 
> 
> 
> Combined with this:
> 
> 
> 
> There are plenty of videos on youtube showing the performance of this this with a Mac Mini which, even in the worst case scenario, should be as good or better on the Mac Sutdio.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently it varies greatly depending upon which NMVe is used. (Above picture is from the Samsung 980 Pro).
> 
> I know that in the real world with samples it will be slower, but this seems like the most bang for the least buck. Others may think otherwise. @rnb_2 might have thoughts.



The numbers certainly look good, but it's pricey and I have an aversion to random word generator brands. Some of them eventually become well-known, release lines of products, and get a decent reputation over time (Sabrent, Aukey, Anker, Orico, etc) but until that happens, I avoid them. The OWC Envoy Express isn't the fastest option (~1.5GB/s), but it's one of the few instances where their price ($79) is actually really competitive. I haven't found another small enclosure that offers better performance at a price I'm happy with from a company I trust.


----------



## Soundbed

KEM said:


> Has anyone used Migration Assistant? That’s what I’m probably gonna use to transfer everything over once my Mac Studio gets here but I’ve never used it before, I’ve actually never even switched computers before so I have no idea how this is gonna go. I’m looking to have my Mac Studio be exactly what my current MacBook Pro is (just with Monterey instead of Big Sur obviously)


I’ve used migration assistant several times over the years, and it’s a huge time saver. Can’t think of any issues it’s caused.


----------



## khollister

wayne_rowley said:


> How bad is USB performance on AS Macs vs. Intel? On my Intel 2018 Mac Mini I have a couple of SATA SSDs connected via USB 3.1 and get around 450MB per second read and write. I use them for sample storage and don't have an issue with performance in Logic.
> 
> Will this be worse on USB on an AS Mac?


yes - I get about 300-350 MBs on Samsung T5's on the M1 vs 550+ on Intel. The one screwup Apple made on the M1 is the embedded USB3 performance on the Apple TB4 controllers. USB4 rocks, but USB3 is gimped.


----------



## KEM

Soundbed said:


> I’ve used migration assistant several times over the years, and it’s a huge time saver. Can’t think of any issues it’s caused.



Seems like the answer I’m getting here are 50/50, but I haven’t seen anyone run into issues when I did some research so I’ll just do that and keep everything on my old Mac in case I have to do a clean install


----------



## Nimrod7

every time same story, from 21st of March:









https://i.giphy.com/media/TW8Ma1a8ZsZ8I/giphy-downsized.gif


----------



## Pier

Nimrod7 said:


> every time same story, from 21st of March:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://i.giphy.com/media/TW8Ma1a8ZsZ8I/giphy-downsized.gif


BTW I'm laughing at the gif, not at your misery.

Sorry 😂


----------



## NoamL

Mine still says "processing"... should get here 30th-6th... 🤔


----------



## aeliron

NoamL said:


> Mine still says "processing"... should get here 30th-6th... 🤔


Yes, everyone, for the sake of those of us who are still undecided ...

If anyone asks whether to switch from PC to Mac, SAY NO ... (or at least that you need more time to offer a more informed opinion)

Other helpful responses:

1. Nah. Everything is soldered in!
2. Keynote and Pages suck


----------



## IFM

That’s okay I’ve change my configuration 3 times so I’m leaving it alone now. Won’t land till June and hopefully not while I’m away.


----------



## Zedcars

KEM said:


> Seems like the answer I’m getting here are 50/50, but I haven’t seen anyone run into issues when I did some research so I’ll just do that and keep everything on my old Mac in case I have to do a clean install


This is the first time in…probably since I went to OS X from System 9 (for obvious reasons) in 2003/4 that I’ve decided to start afresh and not use Migration Assistant. There’s an awful lot of crap that gets transferred over. As I’m going from Intel to M1 AS I would rather suffer the pain of getting everything installed from scratch from a clean OS so that I can minimise any issues. I don’t want to ‘pollute’ the new OS with all my crap I’ve built up over nearly 20 years.


----------



## Zedcars

Nimrod7 said:


> every time same story, from 21st of March:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://i.giphy.com/media/TW8Ma1a8ZsZ8I/giphy-downsized.gif


Having seen your post I decided to check mine (haven’t checked for a few days) and I’m in the same boat. It was due 21st-22nd March but now says 1st April at the earliest. (Is Tim Cook playing an April Fool joke on me??) Very frustrating.


----------



## Nimrod7

Zedcars said:


> Having seen your post I decided to check mine (haven’t checked for a few days) and I’m in the same boat. It was due 21st-22nd March but now says 1st April at the earliest. (Is Tim Cook playing an April Fool joke on me??) Very frustrating.


Manufacturing have been impacted in China. Some factories closed due to Covid. 
I am not sure where this thing get assembled, but could be the reason...


----------



## synthetic

Does anyone use a Thunderbolt RAID like this for both sample and project storage?



https://www.westerndigital.com/products/external-drives/sandisk-pro-g-raid-shuttle-4-thunderbolt-3-hdd#SDPH34H-024T-NBAAB



Or am I better off taking that 2k and buying a TB4 SSD system and a project drive that doesn't need to be that speedy? For $10 more than the NVME enclosure above you can get this dual-NVME enclosure. Even run them in RAID if you want to get stupid.



[Edit:] the more I think about it that Sabrent for samples and a cheaper RAID like the GRAID 2 seems like a better idea, for less money.


----------



## synthetic

Nimrod7 said:


> Manufacturing have been impacted in China. Some factories closed due to Covid.
> I am not sure where this thing get assembled, but could be the reason...


Yes, Covid is ramping up again in China and leading to shipping delays. Especially in the Shenzhen area where these are probably made.


----------



## KEM

Zedcars said:


> This is the first time in…probably since I went to OS X from System 9 (for obvious reasons) in 2003/4 that I’ve decided to start afresh and not use Migration Assistant. There’s an awful lot of crap that gets transferred over. As I’m going from Intel to M1 AS I would rather suffer the pain of getting everything installed from scratch from a clean OS so that I can minimise any issues. I don’t want to ‘pollute’ the new OS with all my crap I’ve built up over nearly 20 years.



I actually just downloaded CleanMyMac like 20 minutes ago, I’m gonna use that to get rid of all the gunk and then use Migration Assistant once the Mac Studio gets here, I use stuff that still isn’t native to Apple Silicon so I’ll be having to use Rosetta no matter what, so I figure I might as well just transfer everything over as it is right now and then update as new native plugins release


----------



## rnb_2

Nimrod7 said:


> Manufacturing have been impacted in China. Some factories closed due to Covid.
> I am not sure where this thing get assembled, but could be the reason...


Shenzhen went into lockdown for all non-essential businesses a few days ago, and Foxconn just got approval to start the iPhone line back up by essentially putting the production workers in a bubble. Even if the Mac Studio isn’t assembled in Shenzhen (it probably is), it almost certainly has to pass through there on the way to Hong Kong for loading onto planes. AppleInsider has more details.


----------



## colony nofi

Vik said:


> So do I, but are results from the original and most basic M1 Macs still relevant?
> 
> Of course, non-Rosetta means a lot, since Rosetta apparently was a main bottleneck when Kontakt performance was discussed, but testing all this on the newest Apple Silicon Macs (especially Ultra), or at least M1 Max would make a lot more sense now when these Macs are out. Why? Because we usually measure performance by counting how many tracks one can get without hiccups, and because Apple made the Pro/Max and Rosetta for a reason: increased performance.
> 
> Personally, I wouldn't even consider a M1 'plain' for orchestral work now when the other Macs have been released – for several reasons, including the fact that the first M1 Macs only could go up to 16 gb RAM. They were never meant for VI work.


oh - and we here are on Nuendo, which is NOT native - it's only running rosetta. So ALL our testing is still rosetta and will be until Nuendo drops with M1 native support. I think they just announced a release date for N12 of April the "I forget"teenth. I haven't dug to see if that's m1 native, but I imagine it will be. Once that is in place, real tests can be done. Oh - and once I get about a week to sweep all the meetings and compositions off the desk to the following week....


----------



## nas

khollister said:


> And you won't see 800 MBs on an M1 - based on my experience with Samsung T7's and everything I've read, you'll likely get 600-650 MBs best case. The question of whether that matters for sample streaming is an open question. And it is interesting that the spec'd speed is less than for similar Sandisk or Samsung USB NVMe drives, so you probably get what you pay for.
> 
> I will reiterate that the prices Apple charges for the internal SSD upgrades are expensive but not a ripoff. If you compare the cost of 4-8TB of thunderbolt storage, the Apple costs are not way out of line. And of course there is no comparison on performance (whether you think you need it or not). You can certainly get lower performance (usually much lower) solutions for less money, but you know the saying - "Good, Fast, Cheap - pick 2".
> 
> I can't speak to streaming performance, but with the right sample player (e.g. VSL Synchron series). there are very significant differences in load times between my internal 8TB and my external TB3 NVMe (which tests out at 2500 MBs - pretty much the max you will get on data from TB3/4).
> 
> Putting stuff that you don't use much or that is undemanding from a streaming standpoint is fine on an average performance USB drive. But I would be very reluctant to put mainline orchestral libs on a "slow lane" device.
> 
> IMHO, YMMV, yada, yada, yada ...



You are absolutely right. I've been looking at external solutions the past few days and for an NVMe 4TB and Thunderbolt enclosure, things actually start to even out a little more. At most there's maybe a 200-300 USD savings - which IMHO is negligible when you're spending 5k - 7k to get kitted up with a Mac Studio Ultra and Studio Display.

I think that the convenience and especially the performance of Apple's internal SSD's might be worth considering - unless one is more apt to keeping sample libraries and projects on separate external drives and just doing the daily backups on your main system drive. 

Either way, it seems less of a cost jump than I had originally assumed or has been in the past.


----------



## LatinXCombo

aeliron said:


> Yes, everyone, for the sake of those of us who are still undecided ...
> 
> If anyone asks whether to switch from PC to Mac, SAY NO ... (or at least that you need more time to offer a more informed opinion)
> 
> Other helpful responses:
> 
> 1. Nah. Everything is soldered in!
> 2. Keynote and Pages suck


I was with you until point 2. Keynote is great.


----------



## Instrugramm

Reviews with benchmarks.


----------



## Pier

Instrugramm said:


> Reviews with benchmarks.













And now we'll need to wait for DAW bench results 😬


----------



## Zedcars

Unroll: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1494213855387734019.html






Only just seen this, but it's worth reading that thread to get an understanding of potential data integrity issues with the internal drives of these machines. This is not a problem on MacBooks because of the battery, but on a desktop Mac there is no battery to fall back on if there is a power outage. According to Hector Martin a power outage with a Mac desktop could result in loss of data. He says if you use F_FULLSYNC to allow macOS to flush its write cache to stable storage, then the IOPS of the drive drops significantly. IOW, Apple's drive is damn fast without cache flushes, but he says it is more than 3 times slower than a SATA SSD at flushing its cache. Without flushing you can end up with data corruption. But that's the default, apparently. So the SSD will be fast when you get it, but if you want durability with F_FULLSYNC then it will not.

Hopefully this can be fixed through a firmware update.


----------



## NoamL

If anyone else receives updates about delays, would you be so kind as to post your new dates here? I'm getting a bit nervous about my Mac arriving on time as I need to load it up RIGHT away for a gig!


----------



## Zedcars

NoamL said:


> If anyone else receives updates about delays, would you be so kind as to post your new dates here? I'm getting a bit nervous about my Mac arriving on time as I need to load it up RIGHT away for a gig!


I can, although work commitments mean I expect others can do this quicker than me. Maybe you ought to have a plan B in place in case you don’t get it in time.


----------



## robgb

Pier said:


> And now we'll need to wait for DAW bench results 😬


Never understood why the Mac benchmarks are measured against PC benchmarks. If I wanted a PC, I'd buy a PC. Simple as that. My question is only this: can Mac Studio deliver the performance I require for what I need to do. It looks as if the answer to that question is a resounding yes.


----------



## KEM

robgb said:


> Never understood why the Mac benchmarks are measured against PC benchmarks. If I wanted a PC, I'd buy a PC. Simple as that. My question is only this: can Mac Studio deliver the performance I require for what I need to do. It looks as if the answer to that question is a resounding yes.



I think in 99% of applications the answer will be yes, I can’t really even imagine a scenario where a musician would be maxing out the M1 Ultra


----------



## Pier

robgb said:


> Never understood why the Mac benchmarks are measured against PC benchmarks. If I wanted a PC, I'd buy a PC. Simple as that. My question is only this: can Mac Studio deliver the performance I require for what I need to do. It looks as if the answer to that question is a resounding yes.


Why not?

What about PC users that might be considering switching?

Or maybe users that live in both PC and Mac such as myself. If someone tells me the M1 Ultra GPU is comparable to a 3090 that gives me a really good idea if where it sits.


----------



## robgb

Pier said:


> Why not?
> 
> What about PC users that might be considering switching?
> 
> Or maybe users that live in both PC and Mac such as myself. If someone tells me the M1 Ultra GPU is comparable to a 3090 that gives me a really good idea if where it sits.


If you're going to switch, chances are pretty good that you're considering a number of other factors, other than the benchmarks of a machine, unless you're heavy into gaming, perhaps. The truth is, if you're producing music you'll be able to do that on both PC and Mac, and on slower machines. I use an eight year old iMac and have never felt the need to upgrade.

So it really comes down to user experience. Not benchmarks, but convenience, work flow, and that kind of thing. I was a PC guy for twenty years, built several of my own computers, before I switched. Why did I switch? Because, at the time, my work computer was an iMac, which I used for video editing, and I discovered that, hey, not only do I love the Mac operating system and interface, I love that I don't have to download a bunch of drivers to make things work. I love that core audio is basically plug and play with very few issues. I still use a PC at times and frankly can't stand the Windows experience.

But that's just me and benchmarks have absolutely nothing to do with it. I just prefer MacOS. I prefer the way it looks and feels and performs. If someone loves working on a PC then he or she should stick with the PC. If you find it's a better solution for your workflow, then you should embrace it.

Switching to a Mac may give you a great new experience, or you may simply hate it. But with ANY machine in that price range—PC or Mac—performance will not really be much of an issue.


----------



## HCMarkus

Zedcars said:


> Unroll: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1494213855387734019.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only just seen this, but it's worth reading that thread to get an understanding of potential data integrity issues with the internal drives of these machines. This is not a problem on MacBooks because of the battery, but on a desktop Mac there is no battery to fall back on if there is a power outage. According to Hector Martin a power outage with a Mac desktop could result in loss of data. He says if you use F_FULLSYNC to allow macOS to flush its write cache to stable storage, then the IOPS of the drive drops significantly. IOW, Apple's drive is damn fast without cache flushes, but he says it is more than 3 times slower than a SATA SSD at flushing its cache. Without flushing you can end up with data corruption. But that's the default, apparently. So the SSD will be fast when you get it, but if you want durability with F_FULLSYNC then it will not.
> 
> Hopefully this can be fixed through a firmware update.



The solution has been found: Use a UPS.


----------



## Vik

Pier said:


> And now we'll need to wait for DAW bench results 😬


I totally agree.


----------



## davidson

Zedcars said:


> Unroll: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1494213855387734019.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only just seen this, but it's worth reading that thread to get an understanding of potential data integrity issues with the internal drives of these machines. This is not a problem on MacBooks because of the battery, but on a desktop Mac there is no battery to fall back on if there is a power outage. According to Hector Martin a power outage with a Mac desktop could result in loss of data. He says if you use F_FULLSYNC to allow macOS to flush its write cache to stable storage, then the IOPS of the drive drops significantly. IOW, Apple's drive is damn fast without cache flushes, but he says it is more than 3 times slower than a SATA SSD at flushing its cache. Without flushing you can end up with data corruption. But that's the default, apparently. So the SSD will be fast when you get it, but if you want durability with F_FULLSYNC then it will not.
> 
> Hopefully this can be fixed through a firmware update.



What I take from that is that power outages can suck, unless you're on a laptop. Who would have thunk'd?


----------



## colony nofi

KEM said:


> I think in 99% of applications the answer will be yes, I can’t really even imagine a scenario where a musician would be maxing out the M1 Ultra


oh I'm going to give it a red hot go... if only for fun. 
We do have some projects where the final mix will kill our mac pro trash cans. We hired an HEDT intel a few years back on another project (a MONSTER pc) which only just coped. Current 16 core mac pro hired on another immersive project, and we had to make allowances.
Real time audio is hard. Balancing many cores with the single master (zero) core is not super easy, and it is surprisingly easy to bring many of these high performance type machines to their knees. 
Start using 16channel wide busses for third order ambisonic tracks. And running multiple reverbs in that kind of world. Throw in a few 100 sound objects. Wild.


----------



## KEM

colony nofi said:


> oh I'm going to give it a red hot go... if only for fun.
> We do have some projects where the final mix will kill our mac pro trash cans. We hired an HEDT intel a few years back on another project (a MONSTER pc) which only just coped. Current 16 core mac pro hired on another immersive project, and we had to make allowances.
> Real time audio is hard. Balancing many cores with the single master (zero) core is not super easy, and it is surprisingly easy to bring many of these high performance type machines to their knees.
> Start using 16channel wide busses for third order ambisonic tracks. And running multiple reverbs in that kind of world. Throw in a few 100 sound objects. Wild.



I’ll be very interested to see these results, I know I probably won’t be stressing my system at all, which I’m very happy about lol


----------



## tabulius

robgb said:


> Never understood why the Mac benchmarks are measured against PC benchmarks. If I wanted a PC, I'd buy a PC. Simple as that. My question is only this: can Mac Studio deliver the performance I require for what I need to do. It looks as if the answer to that question is a resounding yes.


Even if you are not interested in a PC, that doesn't mean someone else is considering a PC vs. Mac. So these benchmark comparisons are very helpful.


----------



## robgb

tabulius said:


> Even if you are not interested in a PC, that doesn't mean someone else is considering a PC vs. Mac. So these benchmark comparisons are very helpful.


Not really unless you're doing a lot of gaming or 8K video editing or 3D rendering. Both Macs and PCs are more than capable of handling what most of us do and the comparison is mostly pointless. The performance capabilities of a top of the line machine are likely to make little difference to anyone already invested in a specific ecosystem. And if you don't have one or the other at this point, you're probably better off testing the waters with much less expensive hardware. 

As I said above, any decision between PC and Mac comes down to the operating system and how it fits with your workflow. Small differences in performance in benchmark tests (many of them synthetic) is really not going make a huge difference in real world performance when it comes to recording and mixing audio.


----------



## LatinXCombo

HCMarkus said:


> The solution has been found: Use a UPS.


^^^ This. You don't need much, just ten or fifteen minutes to see that the power is out, save your work, and gently shut down.

That said, the guy referenced in the original post on this sub-thread is engaged in work that is both so cool and so fundamentally timewasting I must assume that he's either tenured, is funded through product endorsements on a YouTube channel, or lives in a shack in backwoods North Carolina ("hey y'all, watch me make Linux work on Apple Silicon!")


----------



## Zhao Shen

robgb said:


> Not really unless you're doing a lot of gaming or 8K video editing or 3D rendering. Both Macs and PCs are more than capable of handling what most of us do and the comparison is mostly pointless. The performance capabilities of a top of the line machine are likely to make little difference to anyone already invested in a specific ecosystem. And if you don't have one or the other at this point, you're probably better off testing the waters with much less expensive hardware.
> 
> As I said above, any decision between PC and Mac comes down to the operating system and how it fits with your workflow. Small differences in performance in benchmark tests (many of them synthetic) is really not going make a huge difference in real world performance when it comes to recording and mixing audio.


The decision for _you_ comes down to the operating system and how it fits in the workflow. That makes complete sense, but I'm not sure why you're trying to speak for everyone else. For me personally, these benchmarks are crucial, as CPU performance has always been my bottleneck and I'll only be interested in switching from PC to Mac if Apple Silicon is a significant improvement in real-world audio performance vs. top of the line Intel/AMD processors.


----------



## Pier

robgb said:


> As I said above, any decision between PC and Mac comes down to the operating system and how it fits with your workflow. Small differences in performance in benchmark tests (many of them synthetic) is really not going make a huge difference in real world performance when it comes to recording and mixing audio.


For the past 20 years Macs have been considerably slower than PCs when comparing similarly priced machines.

With the M1 we're entering new territory in terms of value for money for Mac hardware. Comparisons with PC make even more sense now than before. Apple understands this which is why you can see comparisons with PC hardware in all their presentations with M1 Mac hardware.


----------



## nas

I do agree that probably more than anything, workflow and whatever inspires creativity is probably going to be the number one determining factor (for me at least). In general, I find these Geek bench scores and the ridiculous stress tests - mostly done by video-centric You Tubers who are fairly clueless to "real world" DAW sessions totally useless. 

Where I do feel Mac and PC comparisons can be helpful is when you have hit the upper limits of what your current system can handle and are looking to either upgrade to a new system or add an additional computer slave. This is what I experienced a few years ago when my iMac hit it's ceiling for the sessions I needed to run and I had a choice... upgrade to a new Mac to handle the increased demand for a substantial amount of money or add an even more powerful PC slave for much less - while retaining my current workflow and DAW of choice.

I chose the latter and have been very happy with the setup, however, I would have really liked to have seen informative and more realistic tests and videos of various DAW's with various configurations that reflect more the kind of sessions we media composers run for demanding projects. 

I hope as more videos and articles get released, we will start to see tests with configurations that can reflect the above scenarios and aid a new buyer in configuring a new system - especially since the new Mac Studio is not future upgradable. 

I for one am very excited about what the Mac Studio has to offer and I'm ready to take things to the next level - but also try to find the sweet spot for what I really need, what I can afford, and how I can at least future proof for a reasonable amount of time without spending an unnecessary amount of money - money that can be allocated usefully to other aspects of my system.


----------



## mat1

Zhao Shen said:


> The decision for _you_ comes down to the operating system and how it fits in the workflow. That makes complete sense, but I'm not sure why you're trying to speak for everyone else. For me personally, these benchmarks are crucial, as CPU performance has always been my bottleneck and I'll only be interested in switching from PC to Mac if Apple Silicon is a significant improvement in real-world audio performance vs. top of the line Intel/AMD processors.



There is zero chance Apple silicon is going to match Intel/AMDs most power hungry chips. Anyone on a Mac knows they are giving up maximum power in exchange for OSX.


----------



## SupremeFist

LatinXCombo said:


> ^^^ This. You don't need much, just ten or fifteen minutes to see that the power is out, save your work, and gently shut down.


We had a 2-minute power outage here in London today. Very rare, but alarming. What's a good reasonably priced UPS that would give me that 10-15 minutes' grace?


----------



## Symfoniq

mat1 said:


> There is zero chance Apple silicon is going to match Intel/AMDs most power hungry chips. Anyone on a Mac knows they are giving up maximum power in exchange for OSX.


Well, they aren't giving up much. According to The Verge, the M1 Ultra has comparable multi-core performance to their 32-core Threadripper.

Yes, I'm aware 64-core Epyc CPUs exist (I use Epyc servers on a daily basis), but that kind of power consumption and noise don't belong in a desktop system.


----------



## Jax

Feels like we’re going to have to wait a few weeks before there are any _useful_ analyses of this machine out there. Now, the “reviews” largely consist of people reading Apple-approved scripts with spec details I could pull from the website. Ironically, the one video I found by a musician was so esoteric that I couldn’t even finish watching it. 

I will say, however, that a lot of the people who have those studio displays aren’t holding back. They’ve definitely made me reconsider picking that up.


----------



## KEM

Symfoniq said:


> Well, they aren't giving up much. According to The Verge, the M1 Ultra has comparable multi-core performance to their 32-core Threadripper.
> 
> Yes, I'm aware 64-core Epyc CPUs exist (I use Epyc servers on a daily basis), but that kind of power consumption and noise don't belong in a desktop system.



It’s actually comparable to the 64-core Threadripper 3990x, so even more powerful!!


----------



## Pier

mat1 said:


> There is zero chance Apple silicon is going to match Intel/AMDs most power hungry chips. Anyone on a Mac knows they are giving up maximum power in exchange for OSX.


AFAIK the next M1 chip will be 2 x M1 Ultra (codenamed Jade 4C Die). Will probably have double the performance too.

I don't think it will be the most performant CPU in the world, but it will be very fast. I seriously doubt anyone here will be giving up CPU power, even for the most demanding audio workloads.


----------



## Zedcars

mat1 said:


> There is zero chance Apple silicon is going to match Intel/AMDs most power hungry chips. Anyone on a Mac knows they are giving up maximum power in exchange for OSX.


Much lower fan noise, lower electricity bills and less environmental impact are also factors. I don't really need it to match the top performers, just to deliver a stable glitch free audio stream under heavy load. But I'm not doing 3D animation or gaming here, so I'm not going to completely max it out unless I throw everything at it (e.g for testing purposes).


----------



## jneebz

SupremeFist said:


> We had a 2-minute power outage here in London today. Very rare, but alarming. What's a good reasonably priced UPS that would give me that 10-15 minutes' grace?


Take a look at the brand APC. Pretty solid and been around a while.

I’ve had a similar one to this in my studio for 6 years with zero problems.


----------



## SupremeFist

jneebz said:


> Take a look at the brand APC. Pretty solid and been around a while.
> 
> I’ve had a similar one to this in my studio for 6 years with zero problems.



Great, thanks!


----------



## Jett Hitt

I read many threads about the M1 Max when it came out, and no one ever expressed anything but amazement. No one ever said it was underpowered. Now, we have twice that. I suspect that 99% of us would be perfectly well served by the M1 Max. I cannot imagine that anyone is going to be wishing they’d bought a Threadripper instead of an Ultra. Personally I’m betting that the Ultra is serious overkill for audio. I might be peddling an underpowered M1 Max before I know it, but I don’t think so.


----------



## KEM

We just got a Studio Display setup here at Best Buy and it looks amazing, I can’t even imagine how good the Pro Display XDR looks as I hear it’s still much better than the Studio Display, I can’t wait to see one in person

@khollister you have an XDR right? How amazing does it look in person?


----------



## robgb

Zhao Shen said:


> The decision for _you_ comes down to the operating system and how it fits in the workflow. That makes complete sense, but I'm not sure why you're trying to speak for everyone else. For me personally, these benchmarks are crucial, as CPU performance has always been my bottleneck and I'll only be interested in switching from PC to Mac if Apple Silicon is a significant improvement in real-world audio performance vs. top of the line Intel/AMD processors.


Hey, you do you. I have no argument with that. Regardless, these Mac vs. PC comparisons are ultimately pointless at this level of power. There are gains and losses no matter which system you choose. It's like comparing a Mercedes to a BMW. They both do basically the same thing and will both be a dream to drive.


Pier said:


> With the M1 we're entering new territory in terms of value for money for Mac hardware. Comparisons with PC make even more sense now than before. Apple understands this which is why you can see comparisons with PC hardware in all their presentations with M1 Mac hardware.


Seems to me these comparisons are merely an extension of the decades old PC vs. Mac wars that were always pretty silly.

Anyway, sorry to piss on your parade. I will step away now and let you all do what you do without further comment.


----------



## Michael Antrum

Jett Hitt said:


> I read many threads about the M1 Max when it came out, and no one ever expressed anything but amazement. No one ever said it was underpowered. Now, we have twice that. I suspect that 99% of us would be perfectly well served by the M1 Max. I cannot imagine that anyone is going to be wishing they’d bought a Threadripper instead of an Ultra. Personally I’m betting that the Ultra is serious overkill for audio. I might be peddling an underpowered M1 Max before I know it, but I don’t think so.


I'm really struggling with whether to go with the Max or the Ultra. It's only the 64Gb vs 128gb that is the bone of contention......


----------



## typewriter

To my knowledge the single core performance of ALL M1 cpus is literally the same. Multicore performance and the media engines for video are mainly responsible for the impressive results.

Audio plugin performance on a single core is not as good as on an Intel core - sadly. And it does not even matter if the plugin is running natively or in Rosetta. Even the native version needs a larger percentage of the CPU performance than on Intel. I tried it with Ableton (M1 version). Just insert one Waveform instrument e.g. with a complex Pad sound and play some notes on a M1 machine (mine is an Macbook Air and a Mac Mini both with 16gb and 2TB). Do the same on an Intel Macbook Pro (mine is the maxed out i9) and you see the difference immediately in the performance meter. Same happens when using the latest Kontakt (M1) version. Rosetta makes the results even worse. Even my 7700k Hackintosh performs here better.

All the current reviews are somehow misleading since they focus on multithreaded performance and the media engine. I haven't seen a decent audio test on these machines.

My guess would be that for music production we would probably need the M1 Ultra - not because of the multithread performance - but to simply have more (single) cores to distribute the plugin load.

Nevertheless there is much I like regarding the new M1 CPUs: Less energy consumption, the laptop stays cool and is dead silent. And finally - after years - we have enough ports. We live in good times!


----------



## aeliron

LatinXCombo said:


> I was with you until point 2. Keynote is great.


Well, ok. It’s not bad. But it still has the weird


HCMarkus said:


> The solution has been found: Use a UPS.


you can order one via Fedex.


----------



## aeliron

Zedcars said:


> Much lower fan noise, lower electricity bills and less environmental impact are also factors. I don't really need it to match the top performers, just to deliver a stable glitch free audio stream under heavy load. But I'm not doing 3D animation or gaming here, so I'm not going to completely max it out unless I throw everything at it (e.g for testing purposes).


But … but the fan noise is an integral part of the whole experience …


----------



## KerrySmith

I am not biting yet, but I *REALLY* like the gist of this article, and maybe what it heralds for future machines. 

Mac Studio Ultra teardown suggest SSD might be upgradable - 9to5 Mac


----------



## NoamL

Jett Hitt said:


> I might be peddling an underpowered M1 Max before I know it, but I don’t think so.


Yes at least they will have resale value, if needed.

But about futureproofing:

There was some thread on here, YEARS ago, where someone calculated the gigabytes on disk "per mic signal" for major string libraries, and if I recall correctly he found that most libraries which have come out _since_ Eastwest Hollywood Strings are nowhere close to exceeding its specs. 

There's several libraries I prefer to HWS for sound, but the relevance to this thread is, that it seems unlikely that developers in the next few years will come out with libraries that you _can't_ run on a machine that _can_ run HWS comfortably today.

I wonder if Atmos mixing is more likely to be the issue that cramps up these machines. Too many simultaneous audio streams?

Also I see lots of people here posting about 128+GB templates and with respect, I don't understand it. I'm called on to do John Williams type stuff quite a lot and recent templates have weighed in at 40-50 gb purged. What is causing the weight of those huge templates people talk about? Don't get it unless it is the Trevor Morris / JunkieXL approach of having every library you own ready and loaded in your template. I don't do that - I'll only load in the things I really use every day, so about 3-4 string libraries and 2-3 options for brass. 

From every Studio Time btw it seems that Junkie/Tom relies heavily on CS2 for his string writing (great choice) and very rarely uses any other strings in his template. So he could conceivably have a 30gb orch template if he wanted, that fits on one of these new laptops no sweat.


----------



## Instrugramm

robgb said:


> Hey, you do you. I have no argument with that. Regardless, these Mac vs. PC comparisons are ultimately pointless at this level of power. There are gains and losses no matter which system you choose. It's like comparing a Mercedes to a BMW. They both do basically the same thing and will both be a dream to drive.
> 
> Seems to me these comparisons are merely an extension of the decades old PC vs. Mac wars that were always pretty silly.
> 
> Anyway, sorry to piss on your parade. I will step away now and let you all do what you do without further comment.


It's not pointless at all... I was considering getting a Mac Studio but as it turns out it's not faster than my 5950X + 3080ti, 128 gb ram and 11tb storage system (which cost over 3000 euros less and is more future proof). Actually my 3080ti is much faster than the Apple gpu and the cpu is faster in lower buffer scenarios (so getting it would involve a lot of trade-offs with minimal gains in high buffer scenarios at best).

I admire Apple's attempt and do think this is great hardware, actually probably their best hardware since the orginal Ipod or Iphone. I don't care about the OS at all, it's all about the right tool for the job and unfortunately Apple did lie a lot in their comparison charts (as usual). That being said, I'm really eager to see what the M2 chip will bring and I'm glad that right now every tech supplier (Nvidia, Intel, AMD and Apple) is at a similar level when it comes to being competitive which is great for us, the consumers and producers.

I'm neither pro pc nor pro Apple, I'm simply objective (and you're free to disagree with everything I've said).


----------



## HCMarkus

davidson said:


> What I take from that is that power outages can suck, unless you're on a laptop. Who would have thunk'd?





SupremeFist said:


> We had a 2-minute power outage here in London today. Very rare, but alarming. What's a good reasonably priced UPS that would give me that 10-15 minutes' grace?


That depends on how power hungry whatever you have connected to it is!

I've been using a couple of CyberPower UPS for years now. Also have an older APC. Both still work fine, you just have to change the batteries every few, maybe 4 or so, years. Both use standard size lead acid batteries, which are available aftermarket for a lot less than the parts branded with the USP manufacturer's label.

You'll find there are several tiers of UPS from most manufactures. Due to the fact there was some concern about possible damage to computer power supplies from the less-expensive "simulated sine wave" models, I moved to a "pure sine wave" model from CyberPower a number of years ago. It is an earlier version of this:



I did note recently that, in the US, Costco is still selling my older version, for considerably less money. Last time I checked, the CyberPower models were a little less expensive than equivalent models by APS.

In my studio, I have my Mac Pro (soon to be replaced by a Mac Studio), an external backup hard drive, my cable modem and my router/Wi Fi all powered from the CyberPower 1500VA UPS. My displays and audio interface are powered from a separate, smaller APC model, so if power drops in the middle of a recording, whatever audio is in the process of recording will be retained.

In my home, I have a second CyberPower UPS keeping the local Wi Fi antenna and network switches alive during outages.

My practice is to save all work and shut down my studio machine ASAP when a power outage occurs. One never knows how long it may last. I can then access the Internet from a laptop for about an hour before running out of battery on the cable modem/router.

It is not recommended to power printers, monitor speakers or other heavier load items from battery backed up outlets; UPS typically provide several surge protected outlets that are not battery backed up.

In my area, power outages are fairly uncommon and often planned (and thus notified of in advance) when dry, windy fire weather threatens. But, on the subject of heat, it kinda' burns me up when someone throws out a "data integrity" issue that is so easy to avoid with common sense practices.

PS: Backing up is not a bad idea, either.

PPS: Mac Studio Teardown Video... extra internal SSD slots?


----------



## sydcomposer

typewriter said:


> My guess would be that for music production we would probably need the M1 Ultra - not because of the multithread performance - but to simply have more (single) cores to distribute the plugin load.


I’ve been wondering how (in a practical sense) the Ultra would benefit DAWs too. As you said, spreading the plugin load over double the amount of cores would give a lot more overall processing headroom... but I wonder… 

Would you need to be pushing the limits of the Max and approaching it’s processing ceiling to actually ‘feel‘ any difference with the Ultra?

I imagine, with a lower amount of plugins on each core, the overall load would all be processed faster…but would a DAW user actually ‘feel’ this? Say, you had a big project running with a Max where two plugins had to share a core (but the core wasn’t hitting it’s processing ceiling)… With the same project running on an Ultra, if the same two plugins were ruining on seperate cores - would the user notice any practical difference?

I‘m sure that if a Max was being pushed to it’s limits, using all 10 of it’s cores to process lots of plugins, then having 2x the cores on the Ultra would make a big difference - but if you’re not close to the Max’s limits, would an Ultra ‘feel’ any different?


----------



## Jett Hitt

Michael Antrum said:


> I'm really struggling with whether to go with the Max or the Ultra. It's only the 64Gb vs 128gb that is the bone of contention......


This is what I wrote in another thread about it.

https://vi-control.net/community/th...mpromises-need-to-be-made.122564/post-5064873

At the end of the day, the only reason to buy the Ultra in my mind is the additional Ram, but jeez, it’s an extra $2200 for an additional 64GB. How does that make any sense?


----------



## LatinXCombo

SupremeFist said:


> We had a 2-minute power outage here in London today. Very rare, but alarming. What's a good reasonably priced UPS that would give me that 10-15 minutes' grace?


I use Cyberpower. They offer a wide range. Some look more or less like bulky power strips that should last 5-10 minutes. When I bought they were around $60 a year or two ago, but looks like they've hit $100 thanks to inflation now. 



This isn't for lingering, 5-10 mins is all you've any right to expect. The more expensive ones might get you more time, of course....


----------



## Instrugramm

Btw it seems like the SSD storage in the MacStudio can be exchanged/upgraded. Not sure if somebody mentioned this. (Apple may however block additional storage via soft-/firmware, so don't get overexcited just yet...)









Mac Studio teardown suggests SSD storage could be upgradeable, more


The first Mac Studios are in the wild, and as is always the case, the first teardowns are starting to hit the web. Most notably so far, Max Tech on YouTube has taken apart the Mac Studio to reveal the internal design, the M1 Ultra, and a potential hint at upgradability. First and foremost, this […]




9to5mac.com


----------



## Jett Hitt

Instrugramm said:


> Btw it seems like the SSD storage in the MacStudio can be exchanged/storage can be upgraded. Not sure if somebody mentioned this. (Apple may however block additional storage via soft-/firmware, so don't get overexcited just yet...)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac Studio teardown suggests SSD storage could be upgradeable, more
> 
> 
> The first Mac Studios are in the wild, and as is always the case, the first teardowns are starting to hit the web. Most notably so far, Max Tech on YouTube has taken apart the Mac Studio to reveal the internal design, the M1 Ultra, and a potential hint at upgradability. First and foremost, this […]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 9to5mac.com


I thought about that, but why would they put those two additional ports in there just to block them? That doesn't add up. I bet that you will be able to buy additional SSDs from Apple and only from Apple for a small ransom.


----------



## KEM

Jett Hitt said:


> I thought about that, but why would they put those two additional ports in there just to block them? That doesn't add up. I bet that you will be able to buy additional SSDs from Apple and only from Apple for a small ransom.



Yeah it’ll most likely be something you have to buy from them and they install it themselves


----------



## HCMarkus

sydcomposer said:


> I’ve been wondering how (in a practical sense) the Ultra would benefit DAWs too. As you said, spreading the plugin load over double the amount of cores would give a lot more overall processing headroom... but I wonder…


I was going to be happy with a Mini running an M1 Pro or Max SOC until Apple had the audacity to release the Studio. I bought the Studio Ultra to prevent me from spending even more money on the M1 Mac Pro when it comes out later this year


----------



## Jett Hitt

HCMarkus said:


> I was going to be happy with a Mini running an M1 Pro or Max SOC until Apple had the audacity to release the Studio. I bought the Studio Ultra to prevent me from spending even more money on the M1 Mac Pro when it comes out later this year


I was expecting to buy a Mac Mini Pro with an M1 Max 64GB, and then the Mac Studio happened. I had resisted the urge to buy the 2019 Mac Pro, even though I frequently told myself that it would serve me for the next 10 years. And then the M1 happened. Then I realized that a Mac Pro likely would not have served me for 10 years. It is conceivable that the M2 or M3 might double the amount of RAM. So with hindsight as my guide, I decided not to try and future proof my purchase. The M1 Max will serve me for now. I can likely sell it and buy a new version with more RAM in the not so distant future.


----------



## Instrugramm

Jett Hitt said:


> I thought about that, but why would they put those two additional ports in there just to block them? That doesn't add up. I bet that you will be able to buy additional SSDs from Apple and only from Apple for a small ransom.


It was a just a guess dropped by Linus at the WAN Show.
The first two topics were the Mac Studio's storage upgradability as well as the new display's power cord (rant).


----------



## jcrosby

typewriter said:


> To my knowledge the single core performance of ALL M1 cpus is literally the same. Multicore performance and the media engines for video are mainly responsible for the impressive results.
> 
> Audio plugin performance on a single core is not as good as on an Intel core - sadly. And it does not even matter if the plugin is running natively or in Rosetta. Even the native version needs a larger percentage of the CPU performance than on Intel. I tried it with Ableton (M1 version). Just insert one Waveform instrument e.g. with a complex Pad sound and play some notes on a M1 machine (mine is an Macbook Air and a Mac Mini both with 16gb and 2TB). Do the same on an Intel Macbook Pro (mine is the maxed out i9) and you see the difference immediately in the performance meter. Same happens when using the latest Kontakt (M1) version. Rosetta makes the results even worse. Even my 7700k Hackintosh performs here better.
> 
> All the current reviews are somehow misleading since they focus on multithreaded performance and the media engine. I haven't seen a decent audio test on these machines.
> 
> My guess would be that for music production we would probably need the M1 Ultra - not because of the multithread performance - but to simply have more (single) cores to distribute the plugin load.
> 
> Nevertheless there is much I like regarding the new M1 CPUs: Less energy consumption, the laptop stays cool and is dead silent. And finally - after years - we have enough ports. We live in good times!


This article by Bluecat suggests the opposite. So far it's in line with the projections that the single core CPU performance gain is roughly about 30%-40%. (The article's entire premise is based around *real time* audio. Interestingly, it was also able to achieve lower latency not just CPU gains).

I suspect it all rests on the DAW developer.... (And plugin developers of course.)

I've been beta testing Live since 2018 or so, Ableton have had a disastrous time making native AS support resemble anything like intel. Even their own native devices that use virtually no resources would go apeshit during the beta. The drum rack for example had several months where it would cause weird CPU spikes that would jump up to 30, 40 even 50%, when typically the drum rack uses next to nothing...

Basically not only are Ableton not the greatest example, I suspect all of the handicaps we see around performance come down to how far developers will go to technically "achieve" native support, vs actually optimize for native support. (I'm looking at you Kontakt.)


Apple M1 vs Intel for Audio: A Benchmark​








Apple M1 vs Intel for Audio: A Benchmark


The new Apple M1 Macs have been available for a few months now, and the new M1 processor has been reported to bring huge performance gains for multiple CPU benchmarks. …



www.bluecataudio.com


----------



## ssnowe

Full teardown of the mac studio:


It looks like the mac studio is one of the most repairable macs out there, everything is screws and no glue.

The onboard ssd can be swapped out (simply unplugs, not soldered, but uses a proprietary Apple connector) and there are additional onboard ssd connectors with empty slots (again, proprietary Apple connectors). 

Based on what companies like OWC have done in the past it wouldn't be surprising to see ssd adapters for plugging in off-the-shelf ssd's into the motherboard.

Memory and cpu aren't upgradeable, but everything is a user removable part - really good to see after all of the glued in pieces and parts found in Apple computers over the past couple of years.


----------



## tabulius

robgb said:


> Small differences in performance in benchmark tests (many of them synthetic) is really not going make a huge difference in real world performance when it comes to recording and mixing audio.


I agree on that, synthetic tests are quoted and referenced too much. I would personally like to see DAW benchmarks run between M1 Ultra vs latest AMD and latest Intel chips for comparisons.

I don't care about the OS personally. Both do their job, all I care is smooth low latency performance.

I hope Mac Studio users will post their experiences here on VI-control!


----------



## tabulius

Jett Hitt said:


> I read many threads about the M1 Max when it came out, and no one ever expressed anything but amazement. No one ever said it was underpowered. Now, we have twice that.


Audio users? I'm not excited about video rendering performance as that is all they seem to benchmark.


----------



## KEM

tabulius said:


> I agree on that, synthetic tests are quoted and referenced too much. I would personally like to see DAW benchmarks run between M1 Ultra vs latest AMD and latest Intel chips for comparisons.
> 
> I don't care about the OS personally. Both do their job, all I care is smooth low latency performance.
> 
> I hope Mac Studio users will post their experiences here on VI-control!



I’ll certainly be posting my experiences!! If there aren’t any delays then I’ll have mine in less than a month


----------



## chomeaso

Cubase user here. I have always felt clock speed on a single core also matters a lot with Cubase. As m1 ultra is known to be 3.2ghz, I wonder how that compares to hich clock intel or amd system.


----------



## jcrosby

ssnowe said:


> Full teardown of the mac studio:
> 
> 
> It looks like the mac studio is one of the most repairable macs out there, everything is screws and no glue.
> 
> The onboard ssd can be swapped out (simply unplugs, not soldered, but uses a proprietary Apple connector) and there are additional onboard ssd connectors with empty slots (again, proprietary Apple connectors).
> 
> Based on what companies like OWC have done in the past it wouldn't be surprising to see ssd adapters for plugging in off-the-shelf ssd's into the motherboard.
> 
> Memory and cpu aren't upgradeable, but everything is a user removable part - really good to see after all of the glued in pieces and parts found in Apple computers over the past couple of years.



I don't want to come across like a grumpy old fart but i think you're projecting a little bit of over-optimism here...

No one knows anything in regards to what the _drive_ slots mean. (there's no confirmation yet as to what the purpose of these serve other than that they fit the same socket). For all we know these tear-downs might feature low-storage capacity models (512, 1 TB, etc), and those extra slots _could_ be reserved for the two higher capacity 4 and 8 TB models. (I.e 8TB = 4 x 2TB drives, 4 TB = 4 x 1 TB drives). Financially this is smart from a design standpoint, as one design rules them all....

Given that this would be the 1st AS model that _*could*_ have spare slots that appear to be directly soldered to the enclave we still don't know what that means. One thing we do know however is that ever since Apple started adding T2 chips to machines the onboard slots directly soldered to the CPU appear to be off limits to the user in a general aftermarket scenario.

In addition to this, Apple's entire secure enclave system makes pairing aftermarket drives to the logic board a complete unknown, and an unknown that has not panned out so far, (at least AFAIK). I highly encourage reading the article below... If anything it shows people have barreled ahead with false optimism before, only to find out Apple has built an essentially insurmountable walled-garden guarded by a secure enclave.

https://eclecticlight.co/2018/11/23/can-you-upgrade-or-repair-a-mac-with-a-t2-chip/
To date I'm unaware of a a machine that didn't come with the same caveat other than the mac Pro, and the mac Pro was clearly designed to be accessible by the user. I personally don't see this design 'encouraging' users to open it up and tinker with it... And if much of Apple's recent history is prologue - tinkering with machines like this often comes with the caveat of it potentially voiding the warranty of an otherwise incredibly expensive machine.

Again, I hate being a wet blanket... But I do think it's wise to use a bit of critical thinking when purchasing a machine that could potentially run some users upwards of 7k, by assuming Apple has the consumers best intentions in mind... the 7-10 years have shown me Apple are very much married to a very different business model.

And personally (again, no intent of being rude!), it'd be wise to not assume anything about reparability. Repairability means components are not soldered in and the entire machine ( or darn near all of it) aren't therefore destined for a landfill under failure... I personally see the same Apple I've seen post 2012 Retina MBP, where components are increasing _child-locked._

Again, I don't want to come off as rude... I'm just suggesting to let the facts bear out before assuming anything about what the discovery of these slots may (or may not) actually mean... (Trust me, I'd love to see an easter egg in the form of extra slots...)


----------



## wayne_rowley

One difference between the Max and Ultra versions that is very important to musicians… noise!

Reports on Macrumors and Reddit suggest that the Max is noticeably noisier than the Ultra at idle. Noisier than an iMac and Mac Mini when idle. The Ultra on the other hand appears to be whisper quiet! They are putting this down to the more efficient copper heat sink in the Ultra.

So if you want the quieter version, you need to spend 2K more!!

In the words of Lando Calrissian “This deal is getting worse all the time” 😀

In all fairness, I’m glad I didn’t rush into getting one. I’d rather wait for all the real world reports to come out (including those for DAW use) before deciding if this is my next music computer.

Wayne


----------



## Vik

Jax said:


> Feels like we’re going to have to wait a few weeks before there are any _useful_ analyses of this machine out there.


It shouldn’t take more than max an hour to create a useful test project, take a screenshot of the cpu meters and share the result here.


----------



## seclusion3

The tear down is much appreciated, so cleaning dust out the machine looks to be a significant undertaking. Plan B, hmm wonder if I could have some type of ”intake filter” to sit the base on to minimize damage.I live in a dusty environment that has damaged my iMac needing the CPU/GPU heat sink redone, which again is a significant undertaking


----------



## davidson

wayne_rowley said:


> Noisier than an iMac and Mac Mini when idle.


So a bit noisier than complete silence, which is what my m1 mini is? I can handle that!


----------



## ssnowe

wayne_rowley said:


> One difference between the Max and Ultra versions that is very important to musicians… noise!
> 
> Reports on Macrumors and Reddit suggest that the Max is noticeably noisier than the Ultra at idle. Noisier than an iMac and Mac Mini when idle. The Ultra on the other hand appears to be whisper quiet! They are putting this down to the more efficient copper heat sink in the Ultra.
> 
> So if you want the quieter version, you need to spend 2K more!!
> 
> In the words of Lando Calrissian “This deal is getting worse all the time” 😀
> 
> In all fairness, I’m glad I didn’t rush into getting one. I’d rather wait for all the real world reports to come out (including those for DAW use) before deciding if this is my next music computer.
> 
> Wayne


I picked up a Max yesterday and used it most of the day with logic Dorico, Kontakt, Staffpad, etc. and it was quiet no matter what I did with it. That and it was driving two 4k monitors and one 5k monitor without any issues whatsoever. I’m not really sure what they were talking about regarding noise at it simply didn’t exist.

That and it was fast and extremely responsive.


----------



## ssnowe

seclusion3 said:


> The tear down is much appreciated, so cleaning dust out the machine looks to be a significant undertaking. Plan B, hmm wonder if I could have some type of ”intake filter” to sit the base on to minimize damage.I live in a dusty environment that has damaged my iMac needing the CPU/GPU heat sink redone, which again is a significant undertaking


I think pulling the bottom off and using some high end filter cloth on the intakes would substantially cut the intake of dust. However, the fan would probably run harder.


----------



## HCMarkus

It would seem to be fairly simple to create a foam filter surround for the base large enough to allow full airflow while keeping dust at bay. Something the Mac Studio would just sit on. Easy to remove and wash. 

Hello... OWC?


----------



## seclusion3

Yes, a round hePa filter that would be an awesome addition, guessing at the size of the fans and heat sinks that heat needs to be moved, so keeping out dust seems like it matters. It is interesting that even the same level M1 Max version needs as big fans and heat sink compare to the MBP M1 Max version.


----------



## playz123

A bit off topic perhaps, but as I await the arrival of a Studio Ultra, I find myself wondering about start-up. It's been a long time since I first started my 2013 Mac Pro for the first time. Anyway, both my Logitech mouse and keyboard are currently connected to my Mac Pro via Bluetooth. So will a new machine be able to recognize and utilize these devices when it's first turned on, or is it first necessary. for example, to connect a mouse and keyboard via USB??
Also, I suspect if the Studio does end up being a dust collector inside, somebody will eventually come up with a solution. I have had no dust problems with my Mac Pro, but of course that's irrelevant, other than suggesting my recording environment is not a dusty location.


----------



## nonchai

Attn all new Mac Studio Ultra 128 GB owners here! - that own and use Spitfire BBC SO Core: 

I'm about to explore the mic options in BBC SO and have had the typical experiences - bad clicks etc- clearly tied to CPU draw when many mic channels are being streamed. 

Am interested if any of the new Mac Studio ULTRA owners who own BBC So are finding that they can now run BBC SO Core with many mics on without issues that arise on older machines. 

I only have a 64GB Mac mini 2018 so even just loading JUST the BBC SO strings gets near the RAM limit once one opens up more than the default mics. I also could try - as suggested by many here - increasing the amount of PRELOAD RAM from the default but of course doing so consumes even MORE RAM and I quickly hit the 64GB ceiling. I also have tried having huge buffer sizes - 1024 etc - but still get clicks. People suggest increasing preload RAM to solve the issue but I cant - I only have 64GB!

In fact I suspect that even 128 GB isnt enough to buffer all the mic channels at preload sizes greater than default. So crazily will only ( unless Mac Studio owners here pipe in to the contrary ) am going to wait until the first M model Pro Macs come out later - that can take 256GB or more - as this BBC SO Multi mic thing really is a RAM ( AND CPU ) RESOURCE HOG


----------



## Jett Hitt

Here is an interesting take on the Max/Ultra dilemma. I can't help but feel that the only advantage the Ultra will have for us DAW users is RAM.


----------



## mat1

nonchai said:


> Attn all new Mac Studio Ultra 128 GB owners here! - that own and use Spitfire BBC SO Core:
> 
> I'm about to explore the mic options in BBC SO and have had the typical experiences - bad clicks etc- clearly tied to CPU draw when many mic channels are being streamed.
> 
> Am interested if any of the new Mac Studio ULTRA owners who own BBC So are finding that they can now run BBC SO Core with many mics on without issues that arise on older machines.
> 
> I only have a 64GB Mac mini 2018 so even just loading JUST the BBC SO strings gets near the RAM limit once one opens up more than the default mics. I also could try - as suggested by many here - increasing the amount of PRELOAD RAM from the default but of course doing so consumes even MORE RAM and I quickly hit the 64GB ceiling. I also have tried having huge buffer sizes - 1024 etc - but still get clicks. People suggest increasing preload RAM to solve the issue but I cant - I only have 64GB!
> 
> In fact I suspect that even 128 GB isnt enough to buffer all the mic channels at preload sizes greater than default. So crazily will only ( unless Mac Studio owners here pipe in to the contrary ) am going to wait until the first M model Pro Macs come out later - that can take 256GB or more - as this BBC SO Multi mic thing really is a RAM ( AND CPU ) RESOURCE HOG



The new max is significantly faster than your mini and should in theory allow the minimum pre-load


----------



## Pier

sydcomposer said:


> but would a DAW user actually ‘feel’ this?


If bigger track count and/or lower latency counts as feeling... then yes.


----------



## Michael Antrum

Went to an Apple store today. Physically, it is a lovely thing. I was out upgrading a camera and it was just a few doors up from the camera store. I think I’ll be ordering the Max CPU with 64gb. I just cant see myself paying £2k for 64 Gb Ram….


----------



## Jett Hitt

Maybe this has been mentioned, but it wasn't known to me. Something to note about the Apple SSDs is that while these are super-fast drives, you only get that 7k speed on the 4 and 8TB models. The other drives are about 30% slower.


----------



## Radium

My advice if you need the computer right now it sounds like a nice solution for a desktop. If you're truly doing a lot of orchestral arrangement like Spitfire or East-West opus I would definitely wait for the new Mac Pro. I'm running a 2019 with 192 gigs and I find myself running short on a 16 core machine. Some large project will use upwards of 175 loaded into memory especially when you start playing with microphone positions. 128 would just be no option for me from what I'm reading it's just another video editor dream which makes sense, with the onboard encoders. I laugh when I read the results comparing the Mac Pro to the Mac studio stop worrying about numbers and just use the machine and make a living I was using my 5.1 for over 7 years until I finally was forced to buy the new Mac Pro do to the lack of AVX support. I'm not sure I'll even buy the first generation Apple SOC Mac Pro if it only has 256 permanent memory you never know how much more you'll need I hope to God somehow they can make it modular so you can add more RAM maybe ddr5 or 6 who cares if they can't read it 800 GB a second it's not important to audio work just video work. Nevermind the storage issues I don't want think about the trash can with dongles everywhere I have enough stuff on my desk LOL without power supplies and hard drive lying everywhere right now I have two Sonnet 16 TB ssds RAID 0 in my machine filled with music Banks and two HDX pro-tool cards keeping my setup clean I love my Mac Pro everything in one box take care


----------



## clonewar

@Radium how loud is your 2019 MP? Looks like you’re able to have it close to your seating position.


----------



## NoamL

there are about a billion youtube reviews for video workflows now but still no DAW benchmarking! boooo!


----------



## HCMarkus

NoamL said:


> there are about a billion youtube reviews for video workflows now but still no DAW benchmarking! boooo!











Gearspace.com - View Single Post - Mac Studio has landed


Post 15908378 -Forum for professional and amateur recording engineers to share techniques and advice.



gearspace.com






Mac Computer# of Test TracksMac Pro 2020 Xeon W 28-core386Mac Studio M1 Ultra 64GB RAM311Mac Pro 2019 16-core265Mac Studio M1 Pro 32GB RAM195


----------



## NoamL

On the plus side some Geekbench5 scores have come in for the Max and the Ultra, from people in the wild..

both machines give single core scores of about 1800 (just under twice and just over twice the single core performance of the '19 Pros and trashcan Pros respectively).

multi core performance is about 12700 for the Max and 23900 for the Ultra so indeed almost "twice as much computer." And the top of the line twenty-eight core '19 Mac Pro scored 19200 so this is a substantial performance improvement on that.



HCMarkus said:


> Gearspace.com - View Single Post - Mac Studio has landed
> 
> 
> Post 15908378 -Forum for professional and amateur recording engineers to share techniques and advice.
> 
> 
> 
> gearspace.com


Awesome, forgot to check there! Thanks.... gonna check it out now...


----------



## Radium

Like I said if you use the system for video work I'm sure it's incredible I still don't buy the BS about the scores. Trust me if you use Apple software I'm sure it's outstanding try running Pro Tools professional or Cubase Pro 12 now and let me know how it works LOL these companies are heavily invested in x86 architecture as a matter of fact Opus by East-West is probably one of the best at multi-core and I've ever seen on the Mac Pro barely using 7% of resources running 50 and 60 gig instruments multiple stacks I love it so much more than Native Instruments who's still lost in the Dark Ages when it comes to UI scaling. As far as noise not a peep it's quite incredible the deepmind 12 desktop unit I have in the rack next to my left foot has a fan that makes more noise and is distracting as hell. I usually track guitars behind me with less than 6 feet away no residual noise the room is not ideal but it was necessary due to the fact that my studio still under construction thanks to covid those speakers belong in at least a 20 by 30 room Trio 11. Since I purchased the machine I paid less than 11 Grand and upgraded it myself with storage and XT 6900 that blows the door off Apple's not to mention with the OLED give you 120 hertz refresh rate which is awesome even doing. Work I can't stand seeing blur lines when I'm moving files around and the occasion that I work on some video work it more than handles anyting I'm not in the movies I'm just adding soundtracks and mixdown stems. To be honest I can't wait to start watching eBay as fools start to throw these machines away thinking they need M1 as I stated I can't wait to buy a new Mac Pro someday but it has to be expandable I don't want to get stuck into the same Mac trash can as many of my friends were in LA what a mistake I stuck it out with my 5.1 2012 upgraded to its limits running Mojave and it's still used in my other Studio you got to remember most audio software doesn't catch up with Mac for 2 years Pro Tools still complains about Big Sur LOL. But once again the future is Apple's SOC but I'm sure I'll get at least another eight years out of this machine well worth the investment


----------



## Soundbed

Zedcars said:


> Unroll: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1494213855387734019.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only just seen this, but it's worth reading that thread to get an understanding of potential data integrity issues with the internal drives of these machines. This is not a problem on MacBooks because of the battery, but on a desktop Mac there is no battery to fall back on if there is a power outage. According to Hector Martin a power outage with a Mac desktop could result in loss of data. He says if you use F_FULLSYNC to allow macOS to flush its write cache to stable storage, then the IOPS of the drive drops significantly. IOW, Apple's drive is damn fast without cache flushes, but he says it is more than 3 times slower than a SATA SSD at flushing its cache. Without flushing you can end up with data corruption. But that's the default, apparently. So the SSD will be fast when you get it, but if you want durability with F_FULLSYNC then it will not.
> 
> Hopefully this can be fixed through a firmware update.



Need more covfefe to comprehend all that. Is the lower speed only the internal drives? I only bought a 1TB internal.


----------



## Soundbed

NoamL said:


> If anyone else receives updates about delays, would you be so kind as to post your new dates here? I'm getting a bit nervous about my Mac arriving on time as I need to load it up RIGHT away for a gig!


Mine is now estimated to arrive April 6-13.


----------



## khollister

Radium said:


> Like I said if you use the system for video work I'm sure it's incredible I still don't buy the BS about the scores. Trust me if you use Apple software I'm sure it's outstanding try running Pro Tools professional or Cubase Pro 12 now and let me know how it works LOL these companies are heavily invested in x86 architecture ...


Hate to break it to you but I am using Cubase 12 Pro both in native and Rosetta mode (waiting on VSL to go native now that the iLok thing is done) and it hauls ass. In native mode it feels and runs (at least with moderate sized projects) as well as Logic. C12 is much more efficient in Rosetta mode than C11 was too.

Far be it from me to defend Steinberg (the VST2 thing is frustrating), but it appears they did a really good job on the x86 and AS Mac versions of 12.


----------



## Soundbed

nonchai said:


> increasing the amount of PRELOAD RAM from the default


Who told you to increase it? You should be able to decrease it to near minimums.


----------



## Radium

I'm glad to hear it's working for you that sounds great not against Apple's SOC don't want to start one of those hater threads never dismiss the future it's where the world is heading LOL. All that I am trying to say don't believe every chart you read Because here's some information from a guy who did some testing an apple just loves using their own skus to make things look great as I stated the machine would never work for me with only 128 gigs this afternoon I'm going to finish up a project I'll take a screenshot for you out of 192 I'm using 166 gigs between Pro Tools running in the background slave to Cubase 12 and reason and logic take care this is a clip from a YouTube video influencer who said the same thing Apple is very lacks a daisy with their charts once again power to Performance is nice but I could care less with a desktop unit if it were too loud I put it in a machine room like my studio will have it can Whirlaway all day long


----------



## Jax

If I wanted to take advantage of the Mac Studio’s fast internal SSD speeds _and_ keep my samples separate from the boot drive, wouldn’t it make sense to partition it? For example, I take a 4TB SSD and split it into a 1TB volume (boot drive + time machine backup) and a 3TB volume (samples).

In terms of reliability, I get that everything is still saved onto that one drive and that if it fails (without backups), everything fails. Interested to know everyone’s thoughts on this.


----------



## Soundbed

Jax said:


> If I wanted to take advantage of the Mac Studio’s fast internal SSD speeds _and_ keep my samples separate from the boot drive, wouldn’t it make sense to partition it? For example, I take a 4TB SSD and split it into a 1TB volume (boot drive + time machine backup) and a 3TB volume (samples).
> 
> In terms of reliability, I get that everything is still saved onto that one drive and that if it fails (without backups), everything fails. Interested to know everyone’s thoughts on this.


Why would you want to separate them?


----------



## HCMarkus

seclusion3 said:


> Hopefully know in a week. That is my issue now with my 2017 iMac. In my climate it’s very dusty, needing to be opened up 2x's a year and cleaned


Been thinking about the dust thing a bit more... foam filter would be great (probably _will_ be great, as some enterprising individual or company will quickly jump on the idea), but it strikes me that one could also raise the Mac Studio on a small platform to keep it out of the "dust bowl". Just a thought.

OTOH, looks like the Studio has cooling capabilities that are superb, so it is gonna' have to get pretty dirty to cease working properly for most workloads.


----------



## Jax

Soundbed said:


> Why would you want to separate them?


So that Time Machine backups only back up system files, applications, important data etc. If they were on the same volume, it would unnecessarily back up terabytes worth of sample library files.


----------



## Soundbed

khollister said:


> yes - I get about 300-350 MBs on Samsung T5's on the M1 vs 550+ on Intel. The one screwup Apple made on the M1 is the embedded USB3 performance on the Apple TB4 controllers. USB4 rocks, but USB3 is gimped.


I don’t know what’s ‘wrong’ in your situation, but that’s not the performance I’m seeing with external NVMe SSDs and enclosures and “fast” USB cables.

Because I can easily get [EDIT — 850MB/s ] as measured by Blackmagic Disk Speed Test, using $17 Sabrent enclosures and $179 Inland 2TB NVMe M.2 SSDs with a bottom of the line original Mac Mini M1, 8GB RAM.

My USB cables are rated at 10Gbps for that test, and so is the enclosure, so those are the bottlenecks (not the Mac Mini’s USB).


----------



## Soundbed

Jax said:


> So that Time Machine backups only back up system files, applications, important data etc. If they were on the same volume, it would unnecessarily back up terabytes worth of sample library files.


Time machine allows you to exclude folders from backup. Options… Click the plus, find the folder(s) to exclude. You could put your samples in a Samples folder.


----------



## HCMarkus

Jax said:


> If I wanted to take advantage of the Mac Studio’s fast internal SSD speeds _and_ keep my samples separate from the boot drive, wouldn’t it make sense to partition it? For example, I take a 4TB SSD and split it into a 1TB volume (boot drive + time machine backup) and a 3TB volume (samples).
> 
> In terms of reliability, I get that everything is still saved onto that one drive and that if it fails (without backups), everything fails. Interested to know everyone’s thoughts on this.


Partitioning is no longer necessary; with APFS formatting, one can establish *Volumes* within a drive. Unlike Partitions (now called "Containers"), Volumes are flexible in size, so there is no need to decide how to allocate drive space in advance.






Add, delete, or erase APFS volumes in Disk Utility on Mac


In Disk Utility on Mac, add, delete, or erase APFS volumes.



support.apple.com







> Apple File System (APFS) allocates disk space on demand. When a single APFS container (partition) has multiple volumes, the container’s free space is shared and can be allocated to any of the individual volumes as needed. Each volume uses only part of the overall container, so the available space is the total size of the container, minus the size of all volumes in the container.
> 
> On your computer, macOS is installed on a set of volumes known as a volume group. The volume group consists of one volume used for the system files (named Macintosh HD) and another volume used for data (named Macintosh HD - Data).


----------



## Jax

HCMarkus said:


> Partitioning is no longer necessary; with APFS formatting, one can establish *Volumes* within a drive. Unlike Partitions (now called "Containers"), Volumes are flexible in size, so there is no need to decide how to allocate drive space in advance.





Soundbed said:


> Time machine allows you to exclude folders from backup. Options… Click the plus, find the folder(s) to exclude. You could put your samples in a Samples folder.


Ahh ok. Thanks for the info!


----------



## Vik

Soundbed said:


> You could put your samples in a Samples folder.


Yes, and if you can also give that folder a icon looking like a drive, and place an alias of it on the desktop if you want a similar workflow to what you are used to. 

What's the difference between a 'Volume' and a folder, anyone? Are there any benefits of using volumes?


----------



## Zedcars

Soundbed said:


> Need more covfefe to comprehend all that. Is the lower speed only the internal drives? I only bought a 1TB internal.


That I’m not sure on. Default setting is fastest speed though. It’s only problematic when there’s a power cut. Hence UPS suggestions. Seems very low likelihood of a problem.


----------



## Pier

HCMarkus said:


> Gearspace.com - View Single Post - Mac Studio has landed
> 
> 
> Post 15908378 -Forum for professional and amateur recording engineers to share techniques and advice.
> 
> 
> 
> gearspace.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac Computer# of Test TracksMac Pro 2020 Xeon W 28-core386Mac Studio M1 Ultra 64GB RAM311Mac Pro 2019 16-core265Mac Studio M1 Pro 32GB RAM195


Thanks for sharing those results!

BTW there's an errata there (from the original source) it should say M1 Max, not M1 Pro.


----------



## NoamL

Looking at the GS thread is funny because it shows, while we complain about Apple neglecting us, "audio pros" isn't even a single category Apple can easily address.

There are people over there who are obsessed with latency & fan noise because they do lots of recording. The people who do lots of mixing are concerned with serial plugin performance on a single CPU core. Meanwhile the VI geeks here care about RAM. Those are very different aspects of computer performance.

The other thing I take away from that thread is you can't really make the computer run hot in CPU-only workflows. It just underlines that us audio people are along for the ride on what is fundamentally a CPU+GPU-blasting machine for video pros. It makes me feel better about the decision to go outboard-PC for any mockup templates above 64GB, instead of going Ultra and buying a lot of copper and GPU I'll never really use.


----------



## clonewar

HCMarkus said:


> Gearspace.com - View Single Post - Mac Studio has landed
> 
> 
> Post 15908378 -Forum for professional and amateur recording engineers to share techniques and advice.
> 
> 
> 
> gearspace.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac Computer# of Test TracksMac Pro 2020 Xeon W 28-core386Mac Studio M1 Ultra 64GB RAM311Mac Pro 2019 16-core265Mac Studio M1 Pro 32GB RAM195


I would take that chart with a grain of salt, it seems like it’s cherry-picking the best scores, not averages. In the comments on that page where people posted their test results (which is the source of info for the chart) one person said that they got 386 tracks on their 28 core MP and the next person replied that they were only able to get 275 tracks on their 28 core MP.


----------



## jonnybutter

Michael Antrum said:


> Went to an Apple store today. Physically, it is a lovely thing. I was out upgrading a camera and it was just a few doors up from the camera store. I think I’ll be ordering the Max CPU with 64gb. I just cant see myself paying £2k for 64 Gb Ram….


Yes, this is probably what I will do too. I’m on a trashcan at the moment so pretty eager to get a new computer, but also can’t justify the extra cost of the Ultra/RAM for my audio needs (or video either, since I don’t do heavy renders). Let me run 30 to 40 streams at low-ish latency and I’ll be ok. And the trashcan (which also has 64 gb of ram) can be a perfectly good slave machine for a while, if I need it. Not as much fun as getting the big honker machine, but the cost/benefit doesn’t work, especially if paying in euros or pounds (on top of VAT, too).


----------



## KEM

HCMarkus said:


> Gearspace.com - View Single Post - Mac Studio has landed
> 
> 
> Post 15908378 -Forum for professional and amateur recording engineers to share techniques and advice.
> 
> 
> 
> gearspace.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac Computer# of Test TracksMac Pro 2020 Xeon W 28-core386Mac Studio M1 Ultra 64GB RAM311Mac Pro 2019 16-core265Mac Studio M1 Pro 32GB RAM195



Not bad at all


----------



## jcrosby

Jax said:


> If I wanted to take advantage of the Mac Studio’s fast internal SSD speeds _and_ keep my samples separate from the boot drive, wouldn’t it make sense to partition it? For example, I take a 4TB SSD and split it into a 1TB volume (boot drive + time machine backup) and a 3TB volume (samples).
> 
> In terms of reliability, I get that everything is still saved onto that one drive and that if it fails (without backups), everything fails. Interested to know everyone’s thoughts on this.


You don't need to partition anymore with macos. Use container disks (Volumes) instead... These will behave like partitions in that they're mounted as unique partitions, but they're dynamic, meaning that each containers' free space shares the entire systems free space... Think of them as folders that appear as mounted disks, but can be backed up separately since the system still treats them like partitions outside of the way they dynamically share all free space.

I use them just to keep samples and projects on their own container... I also have separate backups for each... (Although one giant backup would be fine too, that's just the preference I have)...



EDIT: Looks like HCMarkus beat me to it.. Partitions simply aren't necessary anymore, unless you specifically want to wall something off. (Like a parallel macos installation, the one use case where partitions still make sense).


----------



## Soundbed

clonewar said:


> I would take that chart with a grain of salt, it seems like it’s cherry-picking the best scores, not averages. In the comments on that page where people posted their test results (which is the source of info for the chart) one person said that they got 386 tracks on their 28 core MP and the next person replied that they were only able to get 275 tracks on their 28 core MP.


I encourage others to stop counting tracks and start counting voices.

[EDIT - ] … oh, I see, that test uses synths for “tracks,” right?

So, they are not testing (orchestral) samples that use multiple voices per “track” … oh well.


----------



## MusiquedeReve

My current setup:

2019 Mac Pro (Intel)
3.3 GHz 12-Core
96GB RAM
AMD Radeon Pro W5700X 16 GB (GPU)


Thinking of selling my above setup and getting the M1 Ultra Studio, especially since last night, on this project, Logic Pro (for some inexplicable reason), gave me a system overload message and stopped playback - I really do not understand how as all tracks were frozen (except for Drummer):


----------



## KEM

Just left the Apple Store and they had a Mac Studio there, absolutely beautiful machine, it got me very excited about the arrival of mine here in a new weeks


----------



## gsilbers

IT seems the ssd is upgradable. (kinda)


----------



## rnb_2

gsilbers said:


> IT seems the ssd is upgradable. (kinda)








Mac Studio (New Hardware Mac Computer)!!!!


I'm really struggling with whether to go with the Max or the Ultra. It's only the 64Gb vs 128gb that is the bone of contention...... This is what I wrote in another thread about it...




vi-control.net





I really wish the "share this post" feature would actually show a preview of the post you're sharing...


----------



## typewriter

gsilbers said:


> IT seems the ssd is upgradable. (kinda)



No really. I think those SSDs need to have a special chip added from Apple. There won't be third party solutions. You'll have to get the original ssd from apple. Seems to be as with the current Mac Pros. You can buy an SSD upgrade kit for an insane amount of money.


----------



## gsilbers

typewriter said:


> No really. I think those SSDs need to have a special chip added from Apple. There won't be third party solutions. You'll have to get the original ssd from apple. Seems to be as with the current Mac Pros. You can buy an SSD upgrade kit for an insane amount of money.


bummer. makes sense for this small studio mac but thats so wierd thats the case for mac pro. should be like other m2/etc ssd.


----------



## NoamL

KEM said:


> Just left the Apple Store and they had a Mac Studio there, absolutely beautiful machine, it got me very excited about the arrival of mine here in a new weeks


Really? I think it's pretty ugly. Looks like a lunchbox. That's exciting to me - no more Jony Ive. Having grown up on Win95 I like ugly powerful computers.


----------



## Grilled Cheese

There's a lot of talk in the Macrumors forum about the fan noise made by Mac Studios, especially the Max. Many are turning their purchase for this reason. 

The fans are always on in Mac Studios, but as you might expect, how loud they actually seem depends on (a) how sensitive each person is to noise (b) where they position their Mac and (c) how quiet their room is. 

I'd love to hear from anyone who uses a Mac Studio in a very quiet room (i.e. reasonably soundproof). Do you notice the fan noise? 

(Forgive me is this has been covered somewhere in the previous 33 pages).


----------



## jcrosby

Grilled Cheese said:


> There's a lot of talk in the Macrumors forum about the fan noise made by Mac Studios, especially the Max. Many are turning their purchase for this reason.
> 
> The fans are always on in Mac Studios, but as you might expect, how loud they actually seem depends on (a) how sensitive each person is to noise (b) where they position their Mac and (c) how quiet their room is.
> 
> I'd love to hear from anyone who uses a Mac Studio in a very quiet room (i.e. reasonably soundproof). Do you notice the fan noise?
> 
> (Forgive me is this has been covered somewhere in the previous 33 pages).


I haven't seen anyone on GS complaining about the noise yet. The thread on MR just looks like the kind of thread that will go on endlessly, seems to be filled just as many uninformed opinions as informed ones. If you had to make a guess simply based on comments a forum I'd be far more concerned about what people say over at GS, where people will be putting these into commercial studios, home studios, etc.

Why not post the question in the thread and see if anyone with one responds if they find it audible, and if so if it bothers them in any way?









Mac Studio has landed - Page 18 - Gearspace.com


Quote: Originally Posted by The Beatsmith ➡️ 100% per core. 20 cores available M1 Ultra, up to 2,000% CPU available. Yes, my bad. Sorry & Thank you! Totally false thinking here as I thought Gomjab meant to say it's only 1,45%... oh man, I'll better go to bed..



gearspace.com


----------



## Grilled Cheese

jcrosby said:


> I haven't seen anyone on GS complaining about the noise yet. The thread on MR just looks like the kind of thread that will go on endlessly, seems to be filled just as many uninformed opinions as informed ones. If you had to make a guess simply based on comments a forum I'd be far more concerned about what people say over at GS, where people will be putting these into commercial studios, home studios, etc.
> 
> Why not post the question in the thread and see if anyone with one responds if they find it audible, and if so if it bothers them in any way?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac Studio has landed - Page 18 - Gearspace.com
> 
> 
> Quote: Originally Posted by The Beatsmith ➡️ 100% per core. 20 cores available M1 Ultra, up to 2,000% CPU available. Yes, my bad. Sorry & Thank you! Totally false thinking here as I thought Gomjab meant to say it's only 1,45%... oh man, I'll better go to bed..
> 
> 
> 
> gearspace.com


That's a good option. All the same, I figure there might be a few people around here who are musicians with opinions/experiences they can share. I'd appreciate that.


----------



## Zedcars

Grilled Cheese said:


> There's a lot of talk in the Macrumors forum about the fan noise made by Mac Studios, especially the Max. Many are turning their purchase for this reason.
> 
> The fans are always on in Mac Studios, but as you might expect, how loud they actually seem depends on (a) how sensitive each person is to noise (b) where they position their Mac and (c) how quiet their room is.
> 
> I'd love to hear from anyone who uses a Mac Studio in a very quiet room (i.e. reasonably soundproof). Do you notice the fan noise?
> 
> (Forgive me is this has been covered somewhere in the previous 33 pages).


Qualify “a lot” please.

From the tiny poll I’ve seen about 25% of respondents want to return their Mac Studios. Sounds a lot, but then you realise it’s only 9 people, with 1 person unhappy with the noise but keeping it. Also the poll did not differentiate between Max and Ultra, but it seems to be more acute with the Max due to the differences in construction.

One guy on there said his Max is “38dB with the computer off”. 

There also could be indexing going on which uses more juice.


----------



## samphony

jcrosby said:


> You don't need to partition anymore with macos. Use container disks (Volumes) instead... These will behave like partitions in that they're mounted as unique partitions, but they're dynamic, meaning that each containers' free space shares the entire systems free space... Think of them as folders that appear as mounted disks, but can be backed up separately since the system still treats them like partitions outside of the way they dynamically share all free space.
> 
> I use them just to keep samples and projects on their own container... I also have separate backups for each... (Although one giant backup would be fine too, that's just the preference I have)...
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT: Looks like HCMarkus beat me to it.. Partitions simply aren't necessary anymore, unless you specifically want to wall something off. (Like a parallel macos installation, the one use case where partitions still make sense).


This!


----------



## Grilled Cheese

Zedcars said:


> Qualify “a lot” please.
> 
> From the tiny poll I’ve seen about 25% of respondents want to return their Mac Studios. Sounds a lot, but then you realise it’s only 9 people, with 1 person unhappy with the noise but keeping it. Also the poll did not differentiate between Max and Ultra, but it seems to be more acute with the Max due to the differences in construction.
> 
> One guy on there said his Max is “38dB with the computer off”.
> 
> There also could be indexing going on which uses more juice.


There are multiple threads with hundreds of comments so far. It’s mostly subjective conjecture from people who don’t have the experience to assess noise levels properly, and the survey doesn’t have enough participants to be reliable yet. Still, 25% of survey respondents returning their Macs for noise issues isn’t encouraging. 

The reason I raised this issue here is to get opinions from musicians (i.e. people who are more experienced on matters relating to sound) who are now using a Mac Studio.


----------



## jcrosby

Grilled Cheese said:


> That's a good option. All the same, I figure there might be a few people around here who are musicians with opinions/experiences they can share. I'd appreciate that.


You might want to watch this.

Things of note:
She starts off by stating the video isn't sponsored. (A plus IMO)...
She talks about editing 12 streams of 4k in real time, while screen recording, with Photoshop, Ableton Live, Logic, her UAD console also open. Her words : _"I also have a ton of apps open, just to put it under a little pressure"._

Her words at the section linked: _"It's so quiet too. Gone are the days when a self-recording musician like myself would pick up fan noise and ruin takes"_....

Definitely agree though, best to collect some opinions from people here, on GS, etc. I'm equally curious if it's as quiet as claimed, but personally I don't imagine myself being bothered even after 3 years with a DC-8 jet engine blowing at me in the form of an 19 MacBook


----------



## Grilled Cheese

I’ve seen that one. There are other video reviews that are not so favourable when it comes to noise.

My guess is that the new Mac Studio is probably no louder than the Trashcan Mac, but I’m just guessing. Opinions seem to be varied on this. Some say the noise is intolerable, whereas others say it’s inaudible. I think the only opinion I’ll really trust is from someone with a soundproof workspace like myself.


----------



## gsilbers

Grilled Cheese said:


> There's a lot of talk in the Macrumors forum about the fan noise made by Mac Studios, especially the Max. Many are turning their purchase for this reason.
> 
> The fans are always on in Mac Studios, but as you might expect, how loud they actually seem depends on (a) how sensitive each person is to noise (b) where they position their Mac and (c) how quiet their room is.
> 
> I'd love to hear from anyone who uses a Mac Studio in a very quiet room (i.e. reasonably soundproof). Do you notice the fan noise?
> 
> (Forgive me is this has been covered somewhere in the previous 33 pages).



theres the other review posted earlier where he mentioned that you wont hear the fan noise. Not even at max render times. he demostrated by having to get an app to increase fan noise to hear it. 
so maybe its an issue to be aware of? some have a fan noise issue? 

When i got my i9 macbook i was suprised about the fan noise. I aksed several video edito friends and they didnt seem to mind nor bother them. so it might be on ear of the beholder.


----------



## gsilbers

jcrosby said:


> You might want to watch this.
> 
> Things of note:
> She starts off by stating the video isn't sponsored. (A plus IMO)...
> She talks about editing 12 streams of 4k in real time, while screen recording, with Photoshop, Ableton Live, Logic, her UAD console also open. Her words : _"I also have a ton of apps open, just to put it under a little pressure"._
> 
> Her words at the section linked: _"It's so quiet too. Gone are the days when a self-recording musician like myself would pick up fan noise and ruin takes"_....
> 
> Definitely agree though, best to collect some opinions from people here, on GS, etc. I'm equally curious if it's as quiet as claimed, but personally I don't imagine myself being bothered even after 3 years with a DC-8 jet engine blowing at me in the form of an 19 MacBook





I find it interesting all the reviews mention a lot the new display. Obviously its being paired together but never thought of buying it together as most poeple already have their monitor preference. 
I just have a ultra wide lg and for me the cheapest is good enough for audio. of course video folks need something else. 


She mentions apples spatial audio on the display. which doesnt make alot of sense to me. its like those dolby atmos sound bars poeple put only on the front of the tv. like somehow its going to make a difference. 

And i know what you mean w the macbook jet engine. I was surprised it was normal for intel macbooks to have such loud fan noise. i got the i9 and just opening chrome had the issue. i sent it back to apple, they immediately sent it back saying its fine. so i sold it. then i saw several videos of the i9 and earlier models and all had the same issue so it became more obvious why apple left intel. or at least one main reason. intel dropping the ball for a while.


----------



## KEM

Internal upgrades aren’t possible


----------



## Jett Hitt

KEM said:


> Internal upgrades aren’t possible



Yep, this came across my feed, and I watched it to no surprise. It makes me pretty angry. They really are the greediest bastards on the planet.


----------



## Instrugramm

KEM said:


> Internal upgrades aren’t possible



Anything else would have surprised me... that would undermine their margins. I'm meanwhile thinking about putting even more solid state storage into my pc, since even 11TBs start to be a stretch if composing isn't the only focus of a machine.

The Mac Pro will be system of choice for those who need lots of storage, that's the way their ecosystem is built (not a fan of that decision btw...) .


----------



## chomeaso

KEM said:


> Internal upgrades aren’t possible



Just saw the video and I thought I might post it here and I was too late!
Quite possible that this is all true but like some other people mentions on the comments, maybe there are extra steps he needs to take. They say something about 'resync'
I sure hope it's possible to swap the ssd but I also have a feeling that my hopes are too high and it's gonna turn out as we expected. greeeeeeeeed


----------



## HCMarkus

My Mac Studio will be going in a machine closet, so I am of no use in the Fan Noise discussion. Although my machine closet is fairly large and air conditioned, I always made sure to keep an eye on my Chessegrater's temps just in case. Those worries will clearly be a thing of the past with the new Mac.

As for upgradeable internal storage... Sure, that would be swell, but the TB ports make this pretty much a non-issue for me. I've got external enclosures on hand, awaiting connection to the Mac when it arrives. I don't foresee any issues while working, other than slightly longer load times than might possibly by achieved if everything was stored internally, but I can certainly live with that.


----------



## mscp

MorphineNoir said:


> My current setup:
> 
> 2019 Mac Pro (Intel)
> 3.3 GHz 12-Core
> 96GB RAM
> AMD Radeon Pro W5700X 16 GB (GPU)
> 
> 
> Thinking of selling my above setup and getting the M1 Ultra Studio, especially since last night, on this project, Logic Pro (for some inexplicable reason), gave me a system overload message and stopped playback - I really do not understand how as all tracks were frozen (except for Drummer):


There's something terribly wrong with your machine.


----------



## Nimrod7

Even if upgrades were possible, the drives are tied to every macs T2 chip, which will have to be paired from Apple to function, similar to the Mac Pro 2019.


----------



## mscp

This is what bothers me when considering the Mac studio = the amount of CPU cores. We, composers, do not need anywhere near that amount of GPU to justify the added cost of the overall machine. I believe if a new Mac Mini comes up with more CPU cores, no more than 16-core GPU, and a lot of ram, it will suffice.


----------



## rnb_2

mscp said:


> This is what bothers me when considering the Mac studio = the amount of CPU cores. We, composers, do not need anywhere near that amount of GPU to justify the added cost of the overall machine. I believe if a new Mac Mini comes up with more CPU cores, no more than 16-core GPU, and a lot of ram, it will suffice.


That's the issue, unfortunately - from what I've seen, we're more likely to see more GPU cores than CPU cores for the next generation, since it's based on the A15 (which is a 2performance/4efficiency/(up to)5gpu chip, vs 4gpu in the A14 that the M1 is based on). We're likely to see 4p/4e/9-10g on the m2, with (up to) 8p/2e/20g on the M2 Pro, up to 8p/2e/40g on the M2 Max, and up to 16p/4e/80g on a (theoretical) M2 Ultra.

Most areas of computing are piling tasks onto the GPU (and have been for years - it's what doomed the 2013 Mac Pro), with audio being one of the few areas that hasn't (yet) found a big use for GPU power. I don't think Apple is going to change the core mix just for audio, unfortunately.


----------



## mscp

rnb_2 said:


> That's the issue, unfortunately - from what I've seen, we're more likely to see more GPU cores than CPU cores for the next generation, since it's based on the A15 (which is a 2performance/4efficiency/(up to)5gpu chip, vs 4gpu in the A14 that the M1 is based on). We're likely to see 4p/4e/9-10g on the m2, with (up to) 8p/2e/20g on the M2 Pro, up to 8p/2e/40g on the M2 Max, and up to 16p/4e/80g on a (theoretical) M2 Ultra.
> 
> Most areas of computing are piling tasks onto the GPU (and have been for years - it's what doomed the 2013 Mac Pro), with audio being one of the few areas that hasn't (yet) found a big use for GPU power. I don't think Apple is going to change the core mix just for audio, unfortunately.


Then it's better to get a Mac mini for Logic, and a server computer to do all the greasy work. ugh. (that is, if anyone uses logic or cares about MacOS enough to do that)


----------



## samphony

But then thanks to the soc design making use of the gpu cores could become more relevant for us in the future. Who knows.


----------



## charlieclouser

samphony said:


> But then thanks to the soc design making use of the gpu cores could become more relevant for us in the future. Who knows.


I know people have been asking and speculating about using GPU power for plugin processing, and while the vast majority of commenters talk about how "they're fundamentally different processes" and blah blah blah, perhaps there is some light on the horizon:









Free GPU Powered FIR Convolution Reverb


Early Access plugin from GPU Audio




sonicstate.com


----------



## resonate

GPU audio is coming....








Early Access | GPU Audio


GPU Audio's Early Access program is a free community for users and developers to be part of the benchmarking process for new audio plugins and technology. GPU Audio™ is the world's only full-stack solution for powering the future of audio using the power of modern GPUs like NVIDIA and AMD.




earlyaccess.gpu.audio


----------



## KEM

charlieclouser said:


> I know people have been asking and speculating about using GPU power for plugin processing, and while the vast majority of commenters talk about how "they're fundamentally different processes" and blah blah blah, perhaps there is some light on the horizon:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Free GPU Powered FIR Convolution Reverb
> 
> 
> Early Access plugin from GPU Audio
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sonicstate.com





resonate said:


> GPU audio is coming....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Early Access | GPU Audio
> 
> 
> GPU Audio's Early Access program is a free community for users and developers to be part of the benchmarking process for new audio plugins and technology. GPU Audio™ is the world's only full-stack solution for powering the future of audio using the power of modern GPUs like NVIDIA and AMD.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> earlyaccess.gpu.audio



Interesting concept


----------



## Radium

MorphineNoir said:


> My current setup:
> 
> 2019 Mac Pro (Intel)
> 3.3 GHz 12-Core
> 96GB RAM
> AMD Radeon Pro W5700X 16 GB (GPU)
> 
> Thinking of selling my above setup and getting the M1 Ultra Studio, especially since last night, on this project, Logic Pro (for some inexplicable reason), gave me a system overload message and stopped playback - I really do not understand how as all tracks were frozen (except for Drummer):


----------



## Radium

WOW never saw that with 16 core ??can't believe a few more cores would make a difference ?? also I boot from pci m.2 card 2 TB I only back up to apple's ssd they are way to slow try more ram now at 384 made big difference take care


----------



## cet34f

mscp said:


> Then it's better to get a Mac mini for Logic, and a server computer to do all the greasy work. ugh. (that is, if anyone uses logic or cares about MacOS enough to do that)


Everyone knows that, but the Mac Mini only supports two external monitors. How is a media composer supposed to work with that? Since one port definitely goes to a TV, am I supposed to work with only one monitor?


----------



## arafaratanran

Regarding upgrading the internal SSD(s): It is gonna be possible later on, unless they just don't want to make it possible! The SSDs look exactly like in the 2019 Mac Pro (slightly different in size) and seem to be a custom model. That means, although they are probably nothing special compared to modern NVME SSDs, Apple just wants you to buy the SSD for a premium price from Apple exclusively. For the Mac Pro, you can buy SSD expansion kits, now. Upon release, you couldn't, just like with the Mac Studio, now.

IMO, that is a bit greedy. With the RAM it isn't possible to make it user upgradable with third-party hardware, as RAM is part of the chip and these new macs can only be as good as they are due to their architecture. But with the SSDs it looks like - just as with the 2019 Mac Pro - they want to force you to buy it from them without any other reason to get your money. Otherwise, you simply won't get more SSD space with PCIe speed (unless there will be any TB4 enclosures to reach the same speed, soon ...).

Anyway, in case anybody might think about upgrading later on: it will probably be possible, but it ain't worth it, as the upgrade kit costs more compared to buying it right away. At least, that is the case now with the Mac Pro upgrades you can buy.


----------



## NoamL

mscp said:


> This is what bothers me when considering the Mac studio = the amount of CPU cores. We, composers, do not need anywhere near that amount of GPU to justify the added cost of the overall machine. I believe if a new Mac Mini comes up with more CPU cores, no more than 16-core GPU, and a lot of ram, it will suffice.


Unfortunately other creatives don't need this machine and it seems unlikely Apple will make one just for us.

We should probably be grateful that they made the "chopped" M1Max chip with a quarter of the GPUs removed. That's $200 off for the Max model, or rather surprisingly, a whole THOUSAND dollars off for the Ultra with two Maxes.

Is it still more GPU than we need? Yeah probably. But for Logic users the* only relevant comparison is Mac to Mac*. Yielding these choices -

1. a Hackintosh, lots of issues and IMO too much headache for anyone who doesn't have a full time tech staff?

2. the Apple Silicon Macbook Pro: it's a Studio in laptop form factor, same benefits and compromises pretty much. I think the Studio slightly outclasses it with an external desktop display (not the Studio Display) that would be both cheaper and larger.

3. a refurbed trashcan Mac Pro. I was about to pull the trigger on one before the Studio came out and I'm overjoyed to have hesitated. Obviously Apple Silicon thrashes 8-years-ago Intel.

4. a (3rd gen) cheesegrater Mac Pro. As far as I can tell, Intel Maco Pro has turned out to be a bad deal if 128GB RAM is enough for you, and even worse if 64GB is enough. Adding the maximum upgradeable 20 CPU cores (for a total of 28) adds $7,000 to the base price - that's practically as much as _buying a whole M1Ultra Mac Studio_. Yet this maxed out Intel Mac Pro STILL underperforms M1 Ultra in single/multicore work on optimized apps. The only advantage of this machine right now afaict is the tons of RAM and maybe the 4U rack form factor. That's nice for machine rooms. The Mac Pro would make a nice VEP machine if not for the fact... that VEP runs perfectly well on Windows even for composers who are bound to Logic...

5. Apple Silicon Mac Mini. Fun machine, insufficient RAM.

Overall, paying a few hundred bucks for more GPU than you need is looking like the least bad compromise.


----------



## Marsen

cet34f said:


> Everyone knows that, but the Mac Mini only supports two external monitors. How is a media composer supposed to work with that? Since one port definitely goes to a TV, am I supposed to work with only one monitor?


mac mini intel 2018/2020 supports 3 monitors.
We can probably expect the same for upcoming apple natives.


----------



## mscp

cet34f said:


> Everyone knows that, but the Mac Mini only supports two external monitors. How is a media composer supposed to work with that? Since one port definitely goes to a TV, am I supposed to work with only one monitor?


I'm a media composer and I only work with one monitor...


----------



## mscp

NoamL said:


> Yeah doesn't seem like Apple will ever make such a machine just for us.
> 
> We should probably be grateful that they made the "chopped" M1Max chip with a quarter of the GPUs removed. That's $200 off for the Max model, or rather surprisingly, a whole THOUSAND dollars off for the Ultra with two Maxes.
> 
> Is it still more GPU than we need? Yeah probably. But for Logic users the* only relevant comparison is Mac to Mac*. Yielding these choices -
> 
> 1. a Hackintosh, lots of issues and IMO too much headache for anyone who doesn't have a full time tech staff?
> 
> 2. the Apple Silicon Macbook Pro: it's a Studio in laptop form factor, same benefits and compromises pretty much. I think the Studio slightly outclasses it with an external desktop display (not the Studio Display) that would be both cheaper and larger.
> 
> 3. a refurbed trashcan Mac Pro. I was about to pull the trigger on one before the Studio came out and I'm overjoyed to have hesitated. Obviously Apple Silicon thrashes 8-years-ago Intel.
> 
> 4. a (3rd gen) cheesegrater Mac Pro. As far as I can tell, Intel Maco Pro has turned out to be a bad deal if 128GB RAM is enough for you, and even worse if 64GB is enough. Adding the maximum upgradeable 20 CPU cores (for a total of 28) adds $7,000 to the base price - that's practically as much as _buying a whole M1Ultra Mac Studio_. Yet this maxed out Intel Mac Pro STILL underperforms M1 Ultra in single/multicore work on optimized apps. The only advantage of this machine right now afaict is the tons of RAM and maybe the 4U rack form factor. That's nice for machine rooms. The Mac Pro would make a nice VEP machine if not for the fact... that VEP runs perfectly well on Windows even for composers who are bound to Logic...
> 
> 5. Apple Silicon Mac Mini. Fun machine, insufficient RAM.
> 
> Overall, paying a few hundred bucks for more GPU than you need is looking like the least bad compromise.


I'm still debating whether to get the M1 Max laptop and use it alongside a PC VEP server or wait for the new Mac Pro. I don't think the Mac Mini can handle the pressure CPU-wise since it only offers 4 high-performance cores. At least the M1 Max has 8.


----------



## NoamL

mscp said:


> I'm still debating whether to get the M1 Max laptop use it alongside a PC VEP server or wait for the new Mac Pro. I don't think the Mac Mini can handle the pressure CPU-wise since it only offers 4 high-performance cores.


if you've already got a VEP PC server that seems like a great plan.

The only possible hitch is why you'd want the laptop? The 16 inch MBP with 10+24 Max, 64GB RAM and 4TB SSD polls at $4700, while you can get the same specs in a Studio for $3600 and then have a spare $1100 to go shopping for a display, mouse and keyboard pocketing the difference.

Overall though, this does seem to be the way to go if you will eventually want the Pro with huge RAM.

Someone pointed out on twitter that even the AS MacPro with quad-M1 "Godzilla" (or whatever they'll call it) will theoretically support *only 256 GB* RAM if it keeps scaling as before.

They must have another trick up their sleeve because surely they will want the Mac Pro to support 1.5+TB of RAM as with their Intel machines?? Anyone have a clue how that's done??


----------



## mscp

NoamL said:


> if you've already got a VEP PC server that seems like a great plan.
> 
> The only possible hitch is why you'd want the laptop?



Because I won't need to buy two computers (laptop/desktop). I could use 1 laptop for all tasks (ultimate simplicity). 

Also, considering how often new, more powerful CPUs come out, I could switch computers more frequently.

I don't know yet..still pondering.


----------



## Guavadude

I’m about to order the Studio Max, 64gb. Can’t quite decide on the SSD size. Leaning toward 2tb, considering 4tb. 

I’m current using a thunder bay 4 with HDs for audio and sample libraries, user data and backup. I figure now is a good time to move a portion of my sample lib to SSD but I’m not sure if I should get more external storage or get the higher speed internal memory now. 

Is it a good idea to have my template lib stored on the internal? I’d like to have 1tb for OS and room to grow, using around 400gb now on my Trashcan. So a 2tb leaves me about a gb which might be tight. The 4tb would do it and have some room to grow. 

I’ve been reading a lot but can’t quite get a handle on what’s really the best approach for samples on SSD and how much speed and performance is required to see the benefit.


----------



## rnb_2

mscp said:


> Because I won't need to buy two computers (laptop/desktop). I could use 1 laptop for all tasks (ultimate simplicity).
> 
> Also, considering how often new, more powerful CPUs come out, I could switch computers more frequently.
> 
> I don't know yet..still pondering.


That is one of the real benefits of Apple Silicon: because the base chip is fast and cool, laptops aren't penalized versus desktops any more (or, the penalty has moved so far up the performance scale, it's not relevant for a lot more people than previously). An M1 Max MBP will perform very similarly to an M1 Max Mac Studio, and if you don't need more than 32GB or 16GPU cores, so will an M1 Pro. If you have any need for mobility, you don't have to do the mental gymnastics of keeping your powerful desktop plus your less-powerful laptop in sync - you can just get a powerful laptop. Yes, it's more expensive than the desktop equivalent (you're getting trackpad/keyboard/great screen), but probably less expensive than having two computers.

If you do need all the RAM or GPU power, you'll still need to go desktop, but an M1 Pro is already faster than all but the top iMac Pro config and the base Mac Pro in raw CPU power, so if you don't need the RAM/GPU cores, it's a reasonable starting point.


----------



## MusiquedeReve

mscp said:


> There's something terribly wrong with your machine.


Agreed - additionally, since I first purchased it - it would not restart - I have discussed this with Apple support and, of course, it restarted every time they were on the phone with me - just tried restarting it earlier today and the screen goes black but the Mac Pro power light stays on indefinitely until I press and hold it to turn off, then have to manually power back on


----------



## Jett Hitt

Guavadude said:


> I’m about to order the Studio Max, 64gb. Can’t quite decide on the SSD size. Leaning toward 2tb, considering 4tb.
> 
> I’m current using a thunder bay 4 with HDs for audio and sample libraries, user data and backup. I figure now is a good time to move a portion of my sample lib to SSD but I’m not sure if I should get more external storage or get the higher speed internal memory now.
> 
> Is it a good idea to have my template lib stored on the internal? I’d like to have 1tb for OS and room to grow, using around 400gb now on my Trashcan. So a 2tb leaves me about a gb which might be tight. The 4tb would do it and have some room to grow.
> 
> I’ve been reading a lot but can’t quite get a handle on what’s really the best approach for samples on SSD and how much speed and performance is required to see the benefit.


You're going to be very well served by having your samples on the internal drive in this case, as they are very fast. However, you'll be even more well served by the 4TB than the 2TB because the 4 is faster than the 2. Just something to consider.


----------



## MusiquedeReve

Jett Hitt said:


> You're going to be very well served by having your samples on the internal drive in this case, as they are very fast. However, you'll be even more well served by the 4TB than the 2TB because the 4 is faster than the 2. Just something to consider.


So you would recommend not keeping libraries on external SSDs?

Isn't the usual recommendation to not fill an SSD more than 70% -- if that is the case, I think most of us on here would have to get the 8TB


----------



## rnb_2

MorphineNoir said:


> So you would recommend not keeping libraries on external SSDs?
> 
> Isn't the usual recommendation to not fill an SSD more than 70% -- if that is the case, I think most of us on here would have to get the 8TB


Storing samples on externals should work just fine - the internal will be faster, but you may not notice it much because most sample players don't fully take advantage of fast SSDs. To my mind, getting a bigger SSD seems more important on a laptop than a desktop, as it will allow you to move the laptop around without dealing with external drives; on a desktop, this is less likely to be an issue.

As for leaving space on an SSD, I think leaving 30% free is probably excessive, even on smaller SSDs - 10-20% is probably fine in most cases. As the size of the SSD goes up, the percentage of space you should leave free goes down. Once you get up into the 1TB range, 5-10% is probably fine; at 8TB, you'd probably be fine at ~3% (250GB) or less, especially if most of that space is taken up with largely unchanging samples.


----------



## Jett Hitt

MorphineNoir said:


> So you would recommend not keeping libraries on external SSDs?
> 
> Isn't the usual recommendation to not fill an SSD more than 70% -- if that is the case, I think most of us on here would have to get the 8TB


What Rick said. And for my part I only try to keep my workhorses on the internal drive.


----------



## BassClef

Guavadude said:


> I’m about to order the Studio Max, 64gb. Can’t quite decide on the SSD size. Leaning toward 2tb, considering 4tb.
> 
> I’m current using a thunder bay 4 with HDs for audio and sample libraries, user data and backup. I figure now is a good time to move a portion of my sample lib to SSD but I’m not sure if I should get more external storage or get the higher speed internal memory now.
> 
> Is it a good idea to have my template lib stored on the internal? I’d like to have 1tb for OS and room to grow, using around 400gb now on my Trashcan. So a 2tb leaves me about a gb which might be tight. The 4tb would do it and have some room to grow.
> 
> I’ve been reading a lot but can’t quite get a handle on what’s really the best approach for samples on SSD and how much speed and performance is required to see the benefit.


I have an Ultra on order with 128GB ram and 2TB internal SSD. I will likely use this new PC for a long time, as it is replacing a nearly 8 year old iMac. I'm just a hobbyist who currently has over 3TB of VI libraries on external SSDs. Those are SATA drives running through USB 3.0, and they are plenty fast enough. I considered more internal SSD storage on the Studio Ultra, but who knows how large my VI libraries will be a few years from now. I also do a lot of photography which is adding to my external storage. So I chose 2TB for OS and personal stuff. I have about 1 TB of external storage remaining, so as my VI and photography libraries grow, I'll begin converting to a Thunderbolt external enclosure with NVMe drives.


----------



## artinro

Jett Hitt said:


> However, you'll be even more well served by the 4TB than the 2TB because the 4 is faster than the 2. Just something to consider.


Jett, this is interesting. I wasn’t aware the larger drives performed better. Could you point me to where you read that? I thought I remembered reading a reviewer using the smallest drive available (512gb) was getting close to Apple’s promised speeds, but that was only one test.


----------



## KEM

artinro said:


> Jett, this is interesting. I wasn’t aware the larger drives performed better. Could you point me to where you read that? I thought I remembered reading a reviewer using the smallest drive available (512gb) was getting close to Apple’s promised speeds, but that was only one test.



I couldn’t give you an exact source but it’s a well known fact, watch any YouTube review of the Mac Studio and they’ll mention it


----------



## jneebz

BassClef said:


> I have an Ultra on order with 128GB ram and 2TB internal SSD. I will likely use this new PC for a long time,


Wait, did you just call an Apple product a PC?

BLASPHEMY!


----------



## Jett Hitt

artinro said:


> Jett, this is interesting. I wasn’t aware the larger drives performed better. Could you point me to where you read that? I thought I remembered reading a reviewer using the smallest drive available (512gb) was getting close to Apple’s promised speeds, but that was only one test.


I can't remember where I saw the Youtube video detailing this, but I was a little late to this epiphany myself. However, if you watch just about any one of those videos where they are doing Blackmagic speed tests, you will note that most of the tests are coming in between 4.5-5.5k MB/s. That is because most of these guys are testing loaner units from Apple, and they are equipped with small SSDs. The 4 and 8TB units are supposed to test at ca 7k MB/s. I am guessing--but I don't know this--that Apple is achieving those speeds by running two SSDs in a raid configuration.


----------



## artinro

Jett Hitt said:


> I can't remember where I saw the Youtube video detailing this, but I was a little late to this epiphany myself. However, if you watch just about any one of those videos where they are doing Blackmagic speed tests, you will note that most of the tests are coming in between 4.5-5.5k MB/s. That is because most of these guys are testing loaner units from Apple, and they are equipped with small SSDs. The 4 and 8TB units are supposed to test at ca 7k MB/s. I am guessing--but I don't know this--that Apple is achieving those speeds by running two SSDs in a raid configuration.


Thanks @Jett Hitt and @KEM. I guess I’ll have to rethink my purchase strategy here. Is there any indication that the 8 is faster than the 4, or is it dimishing returns from 4 on?


----------



## Virtuoso

This is pure speculation on my part, but I saw some a couple of the disassembly videos of the Studio where a spare SSD slot (NB Apple proprietary, not M2) was available. The clickbait headline became "Wow! The Studio is expandable!!"

I suspect the second slot is used in the 4TB and 8TB configurations to hold a second SSD, just as it is in my 8TB Mac Pro (supplied by Apple as 2x4TB drives), which is then aggregated with the first to give the full capacity. A bit like a RAID. This might give a performance benefit to the higher capacities, but might also mean they are not expandable (although the supposed expandability is in question anyway due to the non-standard SSDs).


----------



## KEM

artinro said:


> Thanks @Jett Hitt and @KEM. I guess I’ll have to rethink my purchase strategy here. Is there any indication that the 8 is faster than the 4, or is it dimishing returns from 4 on?



As far as I’m aware the 4 and 8 are the same type of drive, so I don’t believe there’s any difference. I went with the 4tb for my Mac Studio


----------



## KEM

Virtuoso said:


> This is pure speculation on my part, but I saw some a couple of the disassembly videos of the Studio where a spare SSD slot (NB Apple proprietary, not M2) was available. The clickbait headline became "Wow! The Studio is expandable!!"
> 
> I suspect the second slot is used in the 4TB and 8TB configurations to hold a second SSD, just as it is in my 8TB Mac Pro, which is then aggregated with the first to give the full capacity. A bit like a RAID. This might give a performance benefit to the higher capacities, but might also mean they are not expandable (although the supposed expandability is in question anyway due to the non-standard SSDs).



Hate to break it to ya but…


----------



## Jett Hitt

artinro said:


> Thanks @Jett Hitt and @KEM. I guess I’ll have to rethink my purchase strategy here. Is there any indication that the 8 is faster than the 4, or is it dimishing returns from 4 on?


I don't think so. In fact, I don't think it can be. I think that they are achieving this speed by running 2 2TB or 2 4TB drives in parallel in a raid configuration.


----------



## Virtuoso

KEM said:


> Hate to break it to ya but…



Not sure what point you're trying to make, but that video shows someone trying (and failing) to upgrade a 1TB Studio to 2TB using a drive from a second machine. It has nothing to do with my speculation, other than to confirm that it's likely that an 8TB Studio will ship with 2x4TB drives using the second SSD slot.


----------



## gsilbers

so its kinda annoying that all the mac studio videos are mostly poeple talking about it when the announcement came. Then poeple talking about it based on the specs. And all of them have thumnails that seems to indicate that they have it. 

Im trying to find any audio/music related reviews with the actual mac studio. Geezz these youtubers. 

Plus the one or two guys who already got it and reviewed it are spending like $16,000 for these revews. like wtf amount of money does youtube reivewers make?! Maybe im in the wrong profession.


----------



## Virtuoso

It's a stretch to even call them reviews. 90% are just some preening narcissist repeating the spec sheets or the keynote hype.


----------



## Guavadude

This is about the best video I’ve seen for an audio session performance and what made me swipe my card. From other tests, the laptop and Studio M1 Max seem to perform very close to each other.


----------



## MusiquedeReve

gsilbers said:


> so its kinda annoying that all the mac studio videos are mostly poeple talking about it when the announcement came. Then poeple talking about it based on the specs. And all of them have thumnails that seems to indicate that they have it.
> 
> Im trying to find any audio/music related reviews with the actual mac studio. Geezz these youtubers.
> 
> Plus the one or two guys who already got it and reviewed it are spending like $16,000 for these revews. like wtf amount of money does youtube reivewers make?! Maybe im in the wrong profession.


I feel the same way - I need to start a YT channel reviewing Apple products and VSTs


----------



## NoamL

This video compares the 10/24 Max with the same setup in a laptop and concludes there's little difference for CPU-intensive tasks:


----------



## jonnybutter

gsilbers said:


> Plus the one or two guys who already got it and reviewed it are spending like $16,000 for these revews. like wtf amount of money does youtube reivewers make?! Maybe im in the wrong profession.


Oh you’re definitely in the wrong profession. 😁


----------



## jcrosby

artinro said:


> Jett, this is interesting. I wasn’t aware the larger drives performed better. Could you point me to where you read that? I thought I remembered reading a reviewer using the smallest drive available (512gb) was getting close to Apple’s promised speeds, but that was only one test.


It's pretty straight forward. The larger the SSD the more NAND chips used. The more NAND chips on a drive the more parallel reads and writes...


----------



## Grégory Betton

Hey guys!

Just got my Mac Studio (the base model) and I found that the fans are quite noisy if you pay attention to them, plus there is a very small but noticeable mid frequency whining sound. Do you think my unit is faulty or do you experiment the same issue?


----------



## mscp

There's absolutely no need for anyone in the music business (media composer/ music production) to get the M1 Ultra. I just got the M1 Max and I ran a large 5.1 project with lots of plugins. PT under rosetta - 60% cpu. That's all I need. I'd only get the M1 Ultra if I was in video editing/3D modeling.


----------



## KEM

Grégory Betton said:


> Hey guys!
> 
> Just got my Mac Studio (the base model) and I found that the fans are quite noisy if you pay attention to them, plus there is a very small but noticeable mid frequency whining sound. Do you think my unit is faulty or do you experiment the same issue?



M1 Max version is noted as being noisier than the M1 Ultra version, nothing to be concerned about


----------



## KEM

mscp said:


> There's absolutely no need for anyone in the music business (media composer/ music production) to get the M1 Ultra. I just got the M1 Max and I ran a large 5.1 project with lots of plugins. PT under rosetta - 60% cpu. That's all I need. I'd only get the M1 Ultra if I was in video editing/3D modeling.



I got the M1 Ultra, mostly just for peace of mind


----------



## wayne_rowley

Grégory Betton said:


> Hey guys!
> 
> Just got my Mac Studio (the base model) and I found that the fans are quite noisy if you pay attention to them, plus there is a very small but noticeable mid frequency whining sound. Do you think my unit is faulty or do you experiment the same issue?


Lots of similar feedback like this on other forums. Some thinking is that the different cooling in the Max compared with the Ultra is the problem. Others are reporting theirs to be quiet. Different ears and different usage environments!

Bittom line it seems like the Max is noisier at idle than a Mac Mini, iMac or MacBook Pro.

Wayne


----------



## Alex Fraser

Grégory Betton said:


> Hey guys!
> 
> Just got my Mac Studio (the base model) and I found that the fans are quite noisy if you pay attention to them, plus there is a very small but noticeable mid frequency whining sound. Do you think my unit is faulty or do you experiment the same issue?


Leave it be and give it a few hours. Spotlight is probably running and busy indexing your drive. That’ll spin the fans up. 

My Intel MacBook sounded like a helicopter for half a day after unboxing.


----------



## wayne_rowley

Alex Fraser said:


> Leave it be and give it a few hours. Spotlight is probably running and busy indexing your drive. That’ll spin the fans up.
> 
> My Intel MacBook sounded like a helicopter for half a day after unboxing.


Nope. They don’t do that. If you watch the benchmark reviews you’ll see the fan speed stays low under load. It’s just that the low fan noise is audible, and seems to be worse on the Max compared to the Ultra (different cooling).


----------



## Alex Fraser

wayne_rowley said:


> Nope. They don’t do that. If you watch the benchmark reviews you’ll see the fan speed stays low under load. It’s just that the low fan noise is audible, and seems to be worse on the Max compared to the Ultra (different cooling).


Progress then. I nearly put my MacBook back in the box.


----------



## Grégory Betton

wayne_rowley said:


> Lots of similar feedback like this on other forums. Some thinking is that the different cooling in the Max compared with the Ultra is the problem. Others are reporting theirs to be quiet. Different ears and different usage environments!
> 
> Bittom line it seems like the Max is noisier at idle than a Mac Mini, iMac or MacBook Pro.
> 
> Wayne





KEM said:


> M1 Max version is noted as being noisier than the M1 Ultra version, nothing to be concerned about


I may choose the ultra later on for the bigger future-proof amount of RAM but there wasn't any more unit in stock! Thank you all for these feedbacks, you rock!


----------



## KEM

Grégory Betton said:


> I may choose the ultra later on for the bigger future-proof amount of RAM but there wasn't any more unit in stock! Thank you all for these feedbacks, you rock!



I ordered the Ultra and I’m glad I did!! I ordered it within the hour it went online so mine should be among the initial batch to ship out, I heard ordering one now has an estimated shipping date around June


----------



## AdamKmusic

These teardown videos are really throwing me off getting one, whilst I haven't changed my PC for a while (apart from adding some RAM a couple years ago which is a simple click in process), the lack of being able to easily upgrade the computer is a massive turn off as someone who is windows/PC based & has been for years!


----------



## KEM

AdamKmusic said:


> These teardown videos are really throwing me off getting one, whilst I haven't changed my PC for a while (apart from adding some RAM a couple years ago which is a simple click in process), the lack of being able to easily upgrade the computer is a massive turn off as someone who is windows/PC based & has been for years!



No excuses, order it now!!


----------



## NoamL

AdamKmusic said:


> These teardown videos are really throwing me off getting one, whilst I haven't changed my PC for a while (apart from adding some RAM a couple years ago which is a simple click in process), the lack of being able to easily upgrade the computer is a massive turn off as someone who is windows/PC based & has been for years!


Even if people figure out how to swap/upgrade storage eventually, it's like c'mon, it's nowhere near as accessible as any version of the Mac Pro where you just push the button and the case comes off and you can pop off any part like LEGO. Here you have to pry the thing open and the first piece you encounter is unshielded power supply followed by a gazillion screws. They don't want ordinary people opening this.


KEM said:


> I ordered the Ultra and I’m glad I did!! I ordered it within the hour it went online so mine should be among the initial batch to ship out, I heard ordering one now has an estimated shipping date around June


When is yours arriving? My Max model still says March 30-April 6.... and still says "processing"...


----------



## KEM

NoamL said:


> When is yours arriving? My Max model still says March 30-April 6.... and still says "processing"...



April 6-13th, just a few weeks from now so I’ll manage


----------



## Luka

KEM said:


> April 6-13th, just a few weeks from now so I’ll manage


Mine is 7 Jun - 21 Jun 🥲
But that's my fault, I ordered it only last friday.


----------



## babylonwaves

mscp said:


> There's absolutely no need for anyone in the music business (media composer/ music production) to get the M1 Ultra. I just got the M1 Max and I ran a large 5.1 project with lots of plugins. PT under rosetta - 60% cpu. That's all I need. I'd only get the M1 Ultra if I was in video editing/3D modeling.


there is one: dolby atmos in logic.


----------



## KEM

Luka said:


> Mine is 7 Jun - 21 Jun 🥲
> But that's my fault, I ordered it only last friday.



I’ve heard they were getting pushed back really far!! I’m glad I didn’t second guess myself and just went ahead and ordered it right away, that wait time would kill me


----------



## KEM

babylonwaves said:


> there is one: dolby atmos in logic.



And soon to be Cubase


----------



## MusiquedeReve

If you order from B&H Photo and use their in-house credit card, they refund the sales tax to you


----------



## gsilbers

mscp said:


> There's absolutely no need for anyone in the music business (media composer/ music production) to get the M1 Ultra. I just got the M1 Max and I ran a large 5.1 project with lots of plugins. PT under rosetta - 60% cpu. That's all I need. I'd only get the M1 Ultra if I was in video editing/3D modeling.


Only with the ultra is possible to select 128gb of ram. 
No doubt the m1 max is great..
But for those who want an all in one solution for large templates Apple only lets us get it via the m1 ultra :/


----------



## gsilbers

Grégory Betton said:


> I may choose the ultra later on for the bigger future-proof amount of RAM but there wasn't any more unit in stock! Thank you all for these feedbacks, you rock!



Can you change the fan speed using an app? And monitor the temp on a large load.

Maybe Apple might release a fix.


----------



## gsilbers

KEM said:


> And soon to be Cubase


And in 2 years pro tools. Maybe 5 if duc crowd doesn’t complain that much


----------



## KEM

gsilbers said:


> And in 2 years pro tools. Maybe 5 if duc crowd doesn’t complain that much



I’d be surprised if Pro Tools even goes native within this year lol


----------



## mscp

KEM said:


> I got the M1 Ultra, mostly just for peace of mind


Yeah. I thought it was a little too much for something that I'll probably switch in 5 years time. I doubt I'd be with the same machine for 10 or so years. We'll probably see something ludicrous before then..like 40 core CPU or so. haha.


----------



## mscp

babylonwaves said:


> there is one: dolby atmos in logic.


And how would that require that much CPU? We're talking about 20-core CPU (which is far greater than those 28-core xeons).


----------



## gsilbers

mscp said:


> And how would that require that much CPU? We're talking about 20-core CPU (which is far greater than those 28-core xeons).


By Using only one Acustica plugins 🤣


----------



## mscp

gsilbers said:


> Only with the ultra is possible to select 128gb of ram.
> No doubt the m1 max is great..
> But for those who want an all in one solution for large templates Apple only lets us get it via the m1 ultra :/


True, but from experience, I think the cost benefit is not worth. I use a VEP computer with 256gb ram and I'm literally going back to 64gb ram (bouncing whenever possible) single machine workflow. Even if I splurged on a 128gb ram system, I'd still have to bounce tracks to audio anyway. hehe


----------



## mscp

gsilbers said:


> By Using only one Acustica plugins 🤣


Oh...don't get me started on those.. haha


----------



## KEM

mscp said:


> Yeah. I thought it was a little too much for something that I'll probably switch in 5 years time. I doubt I'd be with the same machine for 10 or so years. We'll probably see something ludicrous before then..like 40 core CPU or so. haha.



We’ll be seeing the 40-core with the next Mac Pro lol, so you’re not wrong at all


----------



## KEM

gsilbers said:


> By Using only one Acustica plugins 🤣



I hope the one Acustica plugin you guys are using is Gainstation!!


----------



## mscp

KEM said:


> We’ll be seeing the 40-core with the next Mac Pro lol, so you’re not wrong at all


I don't know, but I do hope so - with slots for RAM and NVME. I won't buy any desktop that everything is soldered on. hell no...


----------



## szczaw

I can think of one serious drawback: I can't put that on the floor and my feet on top of it.


----------



## szczaw

My desk is full, could I possibly sit on it ? My ass is shaped like an apple, just a lot bigger. Seriously though, the new mac studio is great, and being firmly in the PC world, I may even pick used one in a few years.


----------



## alcorey

szczaw said:


> My desk is full, could I possibly sit on it ? My ass is shaped like an apple, just a lot bigger. Seriously though, the new mac studio is great, and being firmly in the PC world, I may even pick used one in a few years.


Then you'll need 2....


----------



## Virtuoso

gsilbers said:


> Can you change the fan speed using an app? And monitor the temp on a large load.








Macs Fan Control - control fans on Apple computers, also on Windows via Boot Camp


Control fans on Apple computers, also on Windows via Boot Camp. Monitoring of fan speed and temperature sensors. Solve fan noise and overheating problems, iMac HDD replacement




crystalidea.com


----------



## NoamL

So if the new MP will be 40 core CPU, how will it support more than 256GB RAM? is this 64GB "per Max chip" thing just an artificial cap by Apple?


----------



## Virtuoso

NoamL said:


> So if the new MP will be 40 core CPU, how will it support more than 256GB RAM? is this 64GB "per Max chip" thing just an artificial cap by Apple?



At the Studio keynote, they said the M1 Ultra was 'the final member of the M1 family'.

I suspect the Mac Pro will use a new chipset, not the M1. Hopefully with expandable memory and the ability to add cards. Otherwise it's not really a Mac Pro - hopefully they learned that lesson from the trashcan.


----------



## MusiquedeReve

MorphineNoir said:


> My current setup:
> 
> 2019 Mac Pro (Intel)
> 3.3 GHz 12-Core
> 96GB RAM
> AMD Radeon Pro W5700X 16 GB (GPU)
> 
> 
> Thinking of selling my above setup and getting the M1 Ultra Studio, especially since last night, on this project, Logic Pro (for some inexplicable reason), gave me a system overload message and stopped playback - I really do not understand how as all tracks were frozen (except for Drummer):


Ughhhhh - just had a system overload again

My buffer size is set to 128

Also, looked at ordering a custom configured Mac Studio and my delivery time would be the end of June 

Decisions...decisions (especially if I can get more money on trading in my 2019 Mac Pro now before they announce the new version in June)


----------



## KEM

MorphineNoir said:


> Ughhhhh - just had a system overload again
> 
> My buffer size is set to 128
> 
> Also, looked at ordering a custom configured Mac Studio and my delivery time would be the end of June
> 
> Decisions...decisions (especially if I can get more money on trading in my 2019 Mac Pro now before they announce the new version in June)



Get the Mac Studio!!


----------



## MusiquedeReve

KEM said:


> Get the Mac Studio!!



I hate paying for something that will not arrive for 3 months but I guess I will have to


----------



## Virtuoso

MorphineNoir said:


> Ughhhhh - just had a system overload again
> 
> My buffer size is set to 128
> 
> Also, looked at ordering a custom configured Mac Studio and my delivery time would be the end of June
> 
> Decisions...decisions (especially if I can get more money on trading in my 2019 Mac Pro now before they announce the new version in June)


That can't be right - 12 frozen tracks plus a drummer shouldn't be causing overloads! Are you running any plugins on the tracks? Pull up the load meter and see if that shows what's causing it (whether it's a single core overload or an I/O peak)


----------



## Virtuoso

MorphineNoir said:


> I hate paying for something that will not arrive for 3 months but I guess I will have to


Well, you won't be charged until it actually ships, but you shouldn't need it at all. Feel free to send me the track if you want me to take a look.


----------



## MusiquedeReve

Virtuoso said:


> That can't be right - 12 frozen tracks plus a drummer shouldn't be causing overloads! Are you running any plugins on the tracks? Pull up the load meter and see if that shows what's causing it (whether it's a single core overload or an I/O peak)


There is nothing I see on the I/O peak

The plugins are BBCSO Pro with all articulations purged except the one being used per track


----------



## Virtuoso

MorphineNoir said:


> There is nothing I see on the I/O peak
> 
> The plugins are BBCSO Pro with all articulations purged except the one being used per track


I meant effects plugins - if you have the tracks frozen, I can't imagine what else could be causing the overload.

I have BBCSO Pro though, so if you want to send it over I'm happy to check out how it plays on my Mac Pro.


----------



## MusiquedeReve

Virtuoso said:


> I meant effects plugins - if you have the tracks frozen, I can't imagine what else could be causing the overload.
> 
> I have BBCSO Pro though, so if you want to send it over I'm happy to check out how it plays on my Mac Pro.


OK my computer with Logic is shut down for the night so will have to be tomorrow

the only effects plugin I am using is NI Raum on one of the tracks -- no plugins on any of the BBCSO tracks other


----------



## Virtuoso

MorphineNoir said:


> the only effects plugin I am using is NI Raum on one of the tracks -- no plugins on any of the BBCSO tracks other


Actually I see you're using a pre-fader freeze (green) so that rules out plugins being an issue too. Puzzling - you should be able to play literally hundreds of tracks, not just 12!


----------



## MusiquedeReve

Virtuoso said:


> Actually I see you're using a pre-fader freeze (green) so that rules out plugins being an issue too. Puzzling - you should be able to play literally hundreds of tracks, not just 12!



Yeah - it's very strange - maybe the Mac Pro was not ready for prime time


----------



## Nimrod7

MorphineNoir said:


> I hate paying for something that will not arrive for 3 months but I guess I will have to


You don't pay for it, they reserve the amount from the card 15 days before shipping, and they are charging the card a couple of days before shipping.


----------



## Zedcars

Just got a text message purportedly from DHL Express saying my parcel from Apple has been picked up. Very suspicious though as the website starts https://del.dhl.com and no indication in the Apple Store app that it’s been shipped yet.

Anyone know if that website is legit?


----------



## jcrosby

MorphineNoir said:


> Yeah - it's very strange - maybe the Mac Pro was not ready for prime time


Just want to add that this is totally not normal. It's clearly not an issue with the model, (your machine possibly, but not the _skew_). Even a my i9 Macbook can play a good 50-90 instruments at once depending on patches... I can easily run multiple RAUMs as well, (and often do, as well as Pro-R, VH Delay, and other stuff)...

Curiously what happens if you force quit the coreaudiod process just before launching Logic?
Have you restarted the machine since this happened?
And is it just BBCSO, or every instrument?

If it's BBCSO then there you go... Perhaps something went wonky with your installation randomly...

I don't have BBCSO unfortunately but I'd definitely take Virtuoso up on his offer to look at the project....

As far as replacing that machine with a studio - that's like putting a cast over a pin prick. I'm on a Macbook and can often get darn close to finishing an entire track, mostly mixed, all while still in MIDI... Your MP should be able to do the same...


----------



## Zedcars

Zedcars said:


> Just got a text message purportedly from DHL Express saying my parcel from Apple has been picked up. Very suspicious though as the website starts https://del.dhl.com and no indication in the Apple Store app that it’s been shipped yet.
> 
> Anyone know if that website is legit?


It is genuine. Just got an email from Apple to notify me it has been shipped.

Still estimated delivery of 1st April.

(I’m in the UK).

@NoamL (you wanted delivery updates)


----------



## MusiquedeReve

Nimrod7 said:


> You don't pay for it, they reserve the amount from the card 15 days before shipping, and they are charging the card a couple of days before shipping.


Thanks - I didn't realize that




jcrosby said:


> Just want to add that this is totally not normal. It's clearly not an issue with the model, (your machine possibly, but not the _skew_). Even a my i9 Macbook can play a good 50-90 instruments at once depending on patches... I can easily run multiple RAUMs as well, (and often do, as well as Pro-R, VH Delay, and other stuff)...
> 
> Curiously what happens if you force quit the coreaudiod process just before launching Logic?
> Have you restarted the machine since this happened?
> And is it just BBCSO, or every instrument?
> 
> If it's BBCSO then there you go... Perhaps something went wonky with your installation randomly...
> 
> I don't have BBCSO unfortunately but I'd definitely take Virtuoso up on his offer to look at the project....
> 
> As far as replacing that machine with a studio - that's like putting a cast over a pin prick. I'm on a Macbook and can often get darn close to finishing an entire track, mostly mixed, all while still in MIDI... Your MP should be able to do the same...



I have Logic set to open without any project loading but I will try disabling coreaudiod as well

The system overload does not happen every time - seems to just occur randomly

I am not sure what you mean re: "is it just BBCSO, or every instrument?" -- the only instrument that wasn't frozen was a Logic software piano


----------



## naturalahvi

Does anyone have good ideas how can be 3 or 4 DVI displays connected? All displays are HD resolution. Im total noobster in this matter.


----------



## gsilbers

naturalahvi said:


> Does anyone have good ideas how can be 3 or 4 DVI displays connected? All displays are HD resolution. Im total noobster in this matter.


youll have to find the right adapter. I used to get it wrong all the time as there are different tiny differences with DVI connections. 
but any thunderbolt 3 or 4 to dvi should work.


----------



## gsilbers

Virtuoso said:


> Macs Fan Control - control fans on Apple computers, also on Windows via Boot Camp
> 
> 
> Control fans on Apple computers, also on Windows via Boot Camp. Monitoring of fan speed and temperature sensors. Solve fan noise and overheating problems, iMac HDD replacement
> 
> 
> 
> 
> crystalidea.com


yep.. that one.. i was more asking him if he can do it with the mac studio just to see about that fan speed noise.


----------



## DervishCapkiner




----------



## Nimrod7

DervishCapkiner said:


>



341 tracks: 
Max: "This thing is going to be overkill for almost anybody" 

Wait until you meet a composer.


----------



## marclawsonmusic

MorphineNoir said:


> Yeah - it's very strange - maybe the Mac Pro was not ready for prime time


Hi @MorphineNoir,

Have you tried creating an empty audio track and selecting that during playback?

If you have a Software Instrument track selected during playback, Logic is still in 'live mode' so you might inadvertently spike the first CPU core.

I always create an empty track at the top of my project and select it during playback. One of those Logic things.


----------



## MusiquedeReve

marclawsonmusic said:


> Hi @MorphineNoir,
> 
> Have you tried creating an empty audio track and selecting that during playback?
> 
> If you have a Software Instrument track selected during playback, Logic is still in 'live mode' so you might inadvertently spike the first CPU core.
> 
> I always create an empty track at the top of my project and select it during playback. One of those Logic things.


Will try that 

I just sent the project file over to @Virtuoso so he might be able to see something I am doing wrong when he looks it over


----------



## Virtuoso

MorphineNoir said:


> Will try that
> 
> I just sent the project file over to @Virtuoso so he might be able to see something I am doing wrong when he looks it over


Got it - thank you. It plays fine on my Mac Pro, barely moving the needle on the load meter. We'll have to dig into what's causing the problem on your system but we'll take that offline from this thread.

With frozen tracks...




With all tracks unfrozen...


----------



## babylonwaves

mscp said:


> And how would that require that much CPU? We're talking about 20-core CPU (which is far greater than those 28-core xeons).


because things add up in a way we didn't have before. 

instead of using bus send structures, in atmos it's a good idea to have the FX as inserts on channels. a basic stereo reverb suddenly is 7+1+4 -> 6 stereo reverbs and that is CPU taxing when you use plug-ins like cinematic room etc. in other words, 100 tracks needs the equivalent of 600 stereo revs. it's just an example but from my experience that eats CPU like nothing we've seen before.

and of course there is objects as well.

you cannot compare this to a 5.1 layout. this layout is fixed (and therefore bus sends are fine). atmos is not fixed in layout. the atmos renderer adjusts the layout to the speaker layout.


----------



## NoTBaTMaN

The storage upgrade seems not entirely dead yet…


I’m in need of a new studio computer for some time as my old MBP from 2017 is very noisy and hadn‘t enough RAM from the start (16GB).
The Studio seems like a perfect replacement. After doing some RAM tests it seems like 128GB are necessary if I finally want to make use of all my libraries and start composing with my orchestral libraries, even though it is far beyond what I’d usually spend on a computer. I‘ll still wait for the Mac Pro announcement though before ordering the Studio.


----------



## Guavadude

Is 128gb really necessary? I can't find any real world examples but it seems like these new M1s use ram more efficiently. Anyone know how that relates to using Kontakt?

I'm generally using around 50gb of 64 now but not doing any disk swapping. I think a Max will be a big enough jump for me from the Trashcan. I can alway freeze tracks but I'm trying to get away from that. Don't really want to drop $2k more than I need to.

I also feel that these new chips are going to make the Mac development similar to the iPhones. Change things just enough so that after four years you almost have to buy a new one because the OS is moving on without you. I'm still on Mojave now and Logic 10.5.1 so that doesn't bother me too much but I wonder if spending a little less and upgrading more frequently might be the better way to go.


----------



## BassClef

EXTERNAL STORAGE FOR STUDIO ULTRA (on order with 128GB Ram, 2TB internal SSD)

I'm looking at a dual-bay Thunderbolt 3 external enclosure for NMVe drives. Sabrent...









Thunderbolt 3 To Dual NVMe M.2 SSD Tool-Free Enclosure


FALSE




www.sabrent.com





I'll likely insert two 4TB drives running RAID 0. that will give me max speeds around 2500MBs. It will be backed up to a 2.5" spinning HD as well as the cloud. My 2TB internal SSD will be backed up via "Time Machine" to an external Samsung T-7 that currently houses EW Diamond Opus.

thoughts?


----------



## NoTBaTMaN

Guavadude said:


> Is 128gb really necessary? I can't find any real world examples but it seems like these new M1s use ram more efficiently. Anyone know how that relates to using Kontakt?
> 
> I'm generally using around 50gb of 64 now but not doing any disk swapping. I think a Max will be a big enough jump for me from the Trashcan. I can alway freeze tracks but I'm trying to get away from that. Don't really want to drop $2k more than I need to.
> 
> I also feel that these new chips are going to make the Mac development similar to the iPhones. Change things just enough so that after four years you almost have to buy a new one because the OS is moving on without you. I'm still on Mojave now and Logic 10.5.1 so that doesn't bother me too much but I wonder if spending a little less and upgrading more frequently might be the better way to go.


The samples don‘t magically use less RAM on Apple M1 systems.
If the RAM is overloaded, the OS will still have to use the SSD with a swap files, nothing changed in that regard.
It‘s not recommended to use large swap files on SSDs, their write cycles are finite (every write damages the cells). If you have a large portion of the SSD full with static data, the writes to the swap files can‘t be distributed over a lot of cells to minimize the negative effects.
Also, it‘s clear that performance will significantly decrease, as having the DFD buffer on the SSD is like having no DSD buffer at all.
In which case you could just reduce it‘s size and use less RAM in the first place.
I need about 70GB with 250ms DFD buffer size on SINE to load all libraries+some headroom. If the RAM was upgradeable later on the studio I‘d start with 64GB and would try to figure out how much the buffer size can be decreased, but since it isn‘t I‘d rather be on the safe side this time


----------



## jcrosby

MorphineNoir said:


> Thanks - I didn't realize that
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have Logic set to open without any project loading but I will try disabling coreaudiod as well
> 
> The system overload does not happen every time - seems to just occur randomly
> 
> I am not sure what you mean re: "is it just BBCSO, or every instrument?" -- the only instrument that wasn't frozen was a Logic software piano


Sorry, I guess I confused the reply to one of your posts... I'd at least reboot the machine or restart coreaudiod just to and see what happens. I'd also unfreeze, then freeze again, just to see what happens... Finally see if the issue disappears if you bounce in place. This might at least potentially point to something quirky going on when freezing..

It also looks like your on Logic 10.7 (I'm still on 10.6 in Catalina ATM). 10.7 seems to have been riddled with random little bugs, if you updated Logic to 10.7.3 recently that seems like a more reasonable 1st place to look before assuming the machine has any issues... 9 out of 10 times I've run into weird edge cases like this it's the result of something being updated or installed recently. This (*especially*) includes macos updates.

Case in point: I had a rock solid 2018 MBP that ran like a champ for the 1st 3 months. I installed a security update and he next day the machine wouldn't playback any audio without stuttering and glitching after about 30 mins. This continued for a few weeks, and drove me absolutely nuts to put it politely...

Given that it was a security update, and the update made no mentions of anything audio related being addressed I (wrongfully) assumed it couldn't have been the update. After doing some digging I could see that some other 2018 MBP users were experiencing similar issues.

Luckily I had cloned the machine before installing the update (something that seriously bothers me about AS...) After two weeks of frustration I decided to boot the machine from a cloned external SSD. I was able to run the machine for 4 days without a single issue from the external drive. So I then decided to take the nuclear option, and wipe the internal disk and clone back. The issue was gone and never came back.... Basically despite the security update release notes making no mentions of anything affecting coreaudio, clearly it did...

Anyway I'd look to anything you've updated recently before assuming the machine is the problem... Logic being an obvious suspect given that 10.7.3 hasn't even been out 2 weeks yet... If you've installed any macos updates very recently I would also not rule that out...


----------



## Guavadude

NoTBaTMaN said:


> The samples don‘t magically use less RAM on Apple M1 systems.


Bummer. 

I'm wondering though is the DFD can't help me out a little since I'm not swapping at all right now. 
I'm also moving samples from HD to SSD. Crap, I'm going to have to spend a small fortune in dongles too.


----------



## NoTBaTMaN

Guavadude said:


> Bummer.
> 
> I'm wondering though is the DFD can't help me out a little since I'm not swapping at all right now.
> I'm also moving samples from HD to SSD. Crap, I'm going to have to spend a small fortune in dongles too.


I have no idea how much you can decrease the DFD buffer size tbh, 250ms is the default setting, it will definitely work with 20ms on single patches/low overall polyphony, but what happens when you play a lot of instruments at the same time is not something I can answer. 
I‘d be curious to hear experiences from others, if 20ms is a realistic setting I only need about 20-30GB.
But if you only need 50GB RAM currently, why are you worried?


----------



## Jett Hitt

Guavadude said:


> I also feel that these new chips are going to make the Mac development similar to the iPhones. Change things just enough so that after four years you almost have to buy a new one because the OS is moving on without you. I'm still on Mojave now and Logic 10.5.1 so that doesn't bother me too much but I wonder if spending a little less and upgrading more frequently might be the better way to go.


Personally, I think your reasoning here is very sound. Save your powder for 3-4 years from now when Apple offers the M3 Max with 128GB for what you paid for the M1 Max. As things stand, it's $2000 just to add 64GB of RAM and a bunch of GPUs that you will never use. The Ultra is for video editors. It makes no sense for most of us.


----------



## KEM

Jett Hitt said:


> Personally, I think your reasoning here is very sound. Save your powder for 3-4 years from now when Apple offers the M3 Max with 128GB for what you paid for the M1 Max. As things stand, it's $2000 just to add 64GB of RAM and a bunch of GPUs that you will never use. The Ultra is for video editors. It makes no sense for most of us.



That’s until GPU audio becomes a thing…


----------



## NoTBaTMaN

Jett Hitt said:


> Personally, I think your reasoning here is very sound. Save your powder for 3-4 years from now when Apple offers the M3 Max with 128GB for what you paid for the M1 Max. As things stand, it's $2000 just to add 64GB of RAM and a bunch of GPUs that you will never use. The Ultra is for video editors. It makes no sense for most of us.


The RAM upgrade from 64GB to 128GB „only“ costs $800 for the same CPU performance.
Don‘t forget that the M1 Ultra has double the CPU cores of the M1 MAX, I think this would be a relevant upgrade if you use high track counts.


----------



## Guavadude

NoTBaTMaN said:


> I have no idea how much you can decrease the DFD buffer size tbh, 250ms is the default setting, it will definitely work with 20ms on single patches/low overall polyphony, but what happens when you play a lot of instruments at the same time is not something I can answer.
> I‘d be curious to hear experiences from others, if 20ms is a realistic setting I only need about 20-30GB.
> But if you only need 50GB RAM currently, why are you worried?


I'm not using Sine, only Kontakt. Now I typically need full pop production with the occasional drum ensemble, brass and strings. But who knows what will happen when I discover woodwinds?

I can create more headroom by being efficient, purging more and freezing. In the heat of battle, I kinda like to try a bunch of different libraries to see what works best for a part. I also need to record live instruments after I create the sequence, so honestly if I can get my buffer down to two digits instead of three I'm going to be stoked.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Jett Hitt said:


> Personally, I think your reasoning here is very sound. Save your powder for 3-4 years from now when Apple offers



Is 2022 really any different from 1986 in that way?

Of course there are differences, but the basic concept of upgrading when you need to is the same, no?

(One of the differences is that not long ago 3-4 years was more than the viable lifespan of a Mac!)


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Jett Hitt said:


> The Ultra is for video editors. It makes no sense for most of us.



Could be, and I doubt I'll buy that one. But I've also never heard of a computer that's overkill for our applications. If this one is, it'll be the first.


----------



## NoTBaTMaN

Guavadude said:


> I'm not using Sine, only Kontakt. Now I typically need full pop production with the occasional drum ensemble, brass and strings. But who knows what will happen when I discover woodwinds?
> 
> I can create more headroom by being efficient, purging more and freezing. In the heat of battle, I kinda like to try a bunch of different libraries to see what works best for a part. I also need to record live instruments after I create the sequence, so honestly if I can get my buffer down to two digits instead of three I'm going to be stoked.


I think the Kontakt buffer size is measured in kB, makes it hard to compare. I plan to buy some Kontakt libs in the future again, but currently I have no idea. With the fast SSD and high processing power I‘m sure though you can decrease it by quiet a bit.


----------



## Guavadude

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Is 2022 really any different from 1986 in that way?
> 
> Of course there are differences, but the basic concept of upgrading when you need to is the same, no?


I definitely feel the need for speed. Idk, I've been doing this long enough to remember the dark days when you had to buy a Mac clone because that's all there was, back when it didn't look like they were going to make it. 

And sometimes it sure does seem like my iPhone 2 slowed down right when the 13 came out. Coincidence? I think not. 

I'm ALL for buying the new shiny stuff. Life is short and bouncing tracks is long. Although I have a feeling my plan of doing some curls while I'm waiting is going to fade. I'm willing to trade bicep strength for more CPU.


----------



## KEM

Nick Batzdorf said:


> (One of the differences is that not long ago 3-4 years was more than the viable lifespan of a Mac!)



I’d say that’s especially true now more than ever, Apple Silicon is here to stay so there’s really no reason why something like a Mac Studio won’t last you a decade or more


----------



## Jett Hitt

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Could be, and I doubt I'll buy that one. But I've also never heard of a computer that's overkill for our applications. If this one is, it'll be the first.


It is not a matter of overkill. It’s misallocated power. We have no use for all of those GPUs. The 10 extra cores would be great, but I think that the main reason any of us would buy the Ultra is for the RAM. I can’t see adding $2k to the price when my sole motivation is 64GB of extra RAM.


----------



## NoamL

Zedcars said:


> It is genuine. Just got an email from Apple to notify me it has been shipped.
> 
> Still estimated delivery of 1st April.
> 
> (I’m in the UK).
> 
> @NoamL (you wanted delivery updates)


Thanks Zed. Mine still says processing, fingers crossed!


----------



## Jett Hitt

This is a pretty interesting take on the Mac Studio. Makes me wonder if I should have just bought a Mac Mini and used a slave.


----------



## Pier

rnb_2 said:


> An M1 Max MBP will perform very similarly to an M1 Max Mac Studio


Has this been confirmed?

It makes sense since it's the same chip, but the Mac Studio has much better cooling I think.


----------



## rnb_2

Pier said:


> Has this been confirmed?
> 
> It makes sense since it's the same chip, but the Mac Studio has much better cooling I think.


I haven't seen anything to indicate that they're doing anything special with the Max because of the extra cooling - they don't clock the chip higher or anything.https://sixcolors.com/post/2022/03/mac-studio-review-something-new/ (Jason Snell's review of the Studio Max) has a list of benchmarks, including comparisons to his M1 Max 14" MBP review unit. I'm a bit suspicious of his Geekbench results for the MBP, honestly - my M1 Pro benchmarks at 1759/12618, so I'm not sure why his Max was so slow by comparison - but in the less synthetic benchmarks (Final Cut, Xcode), his numbers are very similar between the Studio and MBP.


----------



## Pier

Jett Hitt said:


> This is a pretty interesting take on the Mac Studio. Makes me wonder if I should have just bought a Mac Mini and used a slave.



That HDR video chews all the CPU of my iMac...


----------



## davidson

Pier said:


> Has this been confirmed?
> 
> It makes sense since it's the same chip, but the Mac Studio has much better cooling I think.


They get the same scores, but the fans don't move from 1300rpm on the studio whatever you throw at it, even at sustained 100% cpu tests. The fans on the MBP spin up to >3000 during the same tests, as would be expected in a laptop but still pretty quiet by all accounts. Both products are over-engineered though and seem to be running WAY under what they could theoretically perform at (look at power draw and temps).

Maybe the mac pro versions of the chips will be 'unlocked'?


----------



## Alex Fraser

Good times.

I remember being woken in the middle of the night thinking someone was using a vacuum cleaner downstairs.

Turns out it was my new G5 with all 7(?!) fans on full blast in some sort of emergency mode.


----------



## HCMarkus

Guavadude said:


> I also feel that these new chips are going to make the Mac development similar to the iPhones. Change things just enough so that after four years you almost have to buy a new one because the OS is moving on without you. I'm still on Mojave now and Logic 10.5.1 so that doesn't bother me too much but I wonder if spending a little less and upgrading more frequently might be the better way to go.


I don't game on my phone. Text Message, Email, Phone. Calendar, Weather, Maps, plus a few simple apps controlling some smart devices... I'm still happily using an iPhone 7, introduced September 2016. And I don't anticipate upgrading until I fall into the pool with it (like I did a few weeks back with my old iPhone 7... my wife now has a new phone, and I have her 7.)

In earlier days, advances in phone SOCs were substantial when measured against typical use cases, so phone upgrades offered performance improvements that the average user could feel and appreciate. Same with computers when considered with regard to audio applications. But, with a machine like the 7,1 Mac Pro or the Mac Studio, we've reached the point where additional incremental CPU throughput improvements won't impact the workflow of the most demanding producer/composer.

So, who knows how long the Mac Studio might be completely adequate for a composer's use?


----------



## mscp

KEM said:


> I’d say that’s especially true now more than ever, Apple Silicon is here to stay so there’s really no reason why something like a Mac Studio won’t last you a decade or more


Reading 41 pages (time-wise) is already more expensive than buying a Mac Studio. lol.


----------



## Nachivnik

NoamL said:


> if you've already got a VEP PC server that seems like a great plan.
> 
> The only possible hitch is why you'd want the laptop? The 16 inch MBP with 10+24 Max, 64GB RAM and 4TB SSD polls at $4700, while you can get the same specs in a Studio for $3600 and then have a spare $1100 to go shopping for a display, mouse and keyboard pocketing the difference.
> 
> Overall though, this does seem to be the way to go if you will eventually want the Pro with huge RAM.
> 
> Someone pointed out on twitter that even the AS MacPro with quad-M1 "Godzilla" (or whatever they'll call it) will theoretically support *only 256 GB* RAM if it keeps scaling as before.
> 
> They must have another trick up their sleeve because surely they will want the Mac Pro to support 1.5+TB of RAM as with their Intel machines?? Anyone have a clue how that's done??


No clue, but a complete guess. What if the M2 chips support twice as much RAM in the Pro, Max, and Ultra variants, and 6x as much RAM in the quad-M2 "Godzilla" (I like your terminology) variant?


----------



## Jett Hitt

Nachivnik said:


> No clue, but a complete guess. What if the M2 chips support twice as much RAM in the Pro, Max, and Ultra variants, and 6x as much RAM in the quad-M2 "Godzilla" (I like your terminology) variant?


Since Apple has announced that these Studios are the end of the M1 lineup, it stands to reason that the Mac Pro will have the M2. I have been wondering for a while now if a year from now I am going to be wishing that I had waited to buy the M2 Max with 128GB.

However, Apple charged my card today, so I guess it's too late to put it off for another year. I will know soon enough whether opting for the M1 Max was a mistake.


----------



## NoamL

Pier said:


> Has this been confirmed?
> 
> It makes sense since it's the same chip, but the Mac Studio has much better cooling I think.


in both form factors if you aren't hitting the GPU hard, the system doesn't seem to be hitting any thermal limitations. The laptop just goes faster and louder on the fans.


----------



## cet34f

NoamL said:


> They must have another trick up their sleeve because surely they will want the Mac Pro to support 1.5+TB of RAM as with their Intel machines?? Anyone have a clue how that's done??


"The memory limit for the ARM Macs probably comes from the maximum size of the memory die that they can place in the MCM, which contains the CPU. "

"I think the limit on RAM on the ARM Macs is therefore due to what Apple could design and manufacture in the schedule they gave themselves rather than due to a difference in the architecture of the M1."

- Tim Standing (OWC’s Vice President of Software Engineering)

So, the trick up their sleeve is that they can choose not to release Mac Pro until they are in the mood to update their production line, and since they don't care about ram-hungry users, I wouldn't hold my breath for it.


----------



## rnb_2

Nachivnik said:


> No clue, but a complete guess. What if the M2 chips support twice as much RAM in the Pro, Max, and Ultra variants, and 6x as much RAM in the quad-M2 "Godzilla" (I like your terminology) variant?


The limiting factor for the RAM is the capacity of the largest RAM chips that Apple can source to fit their package requirements - there is a physical size limit for the package, since the idea is to have all the RAM very close to the SOC. Because of the way that RAM is manufactured, density typically goes up by a factor of two in a process shrink, so the first part of your idea is certainly possible if a RAM manufacturer can economically produce chips at twice the current density. However, with how the M-series chips are manufactured, everything would go up by only a factor of two at each level, as an Ultra has twice the interconnects of a Max, which has twice the interconnects of a Pro, *because they all start as the same thing on the wafer*.

The latest conjecture that I've heard about how the manufacturing works is that everything is a potential M1 Ultra - they're arranged on the silicon wafer in interconnected pairs of M1 Max packages, and every pair that passes becomes an Ultra (if any GPU cores fail, it becomes a 48-core GPU Ultra). Any pairs that don't pass are split, and all that then pass become M1 Max (if any GPU cores fail here, they become 24-core GPU Max). Any chips that fail to pass at this point become M1 Pros, and any that subsequently fail GPU tests become 10-core/14-core Pros; any that fail CPU tests become 8-core/14-core Pros.

We really need to see what they do with the Mac Pro to have a better idea of how things will be structured - if they allow user-upgradable RAM there, then we'll know that some things that currently appear to be set-in-stone with Apple Silicon aren't. If they don't allow user-upgradable RAM, then RAM will be dependent on what can be included on package and how many packages can be supported in a single system - this is where the claim that Ultra is the final chip in the M1 family comes in, as that makes the rumored 4xMax chip seem unlikely (at best, unless Apple wants to play fast-and-loose with things). With all the detail Apple put into explaining why their processor interconnect system was better than having two discrete CPU packages, it also seems unlikely that they would then go that route on the Mac Pro.


----------



## rnb_2

rnb_2 said:


> The limiting factor for the RAM is the capacity of the largest RAM chips that Apple can source to fit their package requirements - there is a physical size limit for the package, since the idea is to have all the RAM very close to the SOC. Because of the way that RAM is manufactured, density typically goes up by a factor of two in a process shrink, so the first part of your idea is certainly possible if a RAM manufacturer can economically produce chips at twice the current density. However, with how the M-series chips are manufactured, everything would go up by only a factor of two at each level, as an Ultra has twice the interconnects of a Max, which has twice the interconnects of a Pro, *because they all start as the same thing on the wafer*.
> 
> The latest conjecture that I've heard about how the manufacturing works is that everything is a potential M1 Ultra - they're arranged on the silicon wafer in interconnected pairs of M1 Max packages, and every pair that passes becomes an Ultra (if any GPU cores fail, it becomes a 48-core GPU Ultra). Any pairs that don't pass are split, and all that then pass become M1 Max (if any GPU cores fail here, they become 24-core GPU Max). Any chips that fail to pass at this point become M1 Pros, and any that subsequently fail GPU tests become 10-core/14-core Pros; any that fail CPU tests become 8-core/14-core Pros.
> 
> We really need to see what they do with the Mac Pro to have a better idea of how things will be structured - if they allow user-upgradable RAM there, then we'll know that some things that currently appear to be set-in-stone with Apple Silicon aren't. If they don't allow user-upgradable RAM, then RAM will be dependent on what can be included on package and how many packages can be supported in a single system - this is where the claim that Ultra is the final chip in the M1 family comes in, as that makes the rumored 4xMax chip seem unlikely (at best, unless Apple wants to play fast-and-loose with things). With all the detail Apple put into explaining why their processor interconnect system was better than having two discrete CPU packages, it also seems unlikely that they would then go that route on the Mac Pro.


I should note that the above manufacturing process is still conjecture, and seems to assume a large number of failures on each silicon wafer in order to provide enough higher volume chips for the Macs that need them. I also believe that manufacturing has not followed this plan since the M1 Pro/Max were introduced last fall - I believe that those were almost certainly manufactured in a similar fashion for some period, but without the Ultra as the ultimate goal (every chip started as a potential 10-core/32-core Max instead).

Apple has likely been working with TSMC for the intervening months on the process for getting the Ultra produced, and it's possible that there are still enough failures just in the interconnect structure between the individual Max chips to disqualify most of each wafer at the first test.


----------



## DervishCapkiner

Interesting comparisons regarding the heat of the base Mac studio and the MacBook Pro.

It looks like the studio is not pushing quite as hard as the mbp and the presenter thinks this may be fixed in future updates.


----------



## NoamL

The more I think about it the more it seems reasonable that if you CAN wait for 6-12 months & you currently use a souped up MacPro, then just wait for the MP refresh. There'll be more adoption & optimization of AS by that time and you'll get all the CPU and RAM you need. It's just more futureproof, the only gamble really, is how low Apple is willing to go on the GPU side (like what's the LEAST gpu they will allow you to buy heheh).

But if you're in the hobbyist / one man band / composer assistant camp, then this machine already has plenty of power.



DervishCapkiner said:


> Interesting comparisons regarding the heat of the base Mac studio and the MacBook Pro.
> 
> It looks like the studio is not pushing quite as hard as the mbp and the presenter thinks this may be fixed in future updates.



That's a great video, shows how hard it is to throttle either machine, and that perhaps a combination of future optimizations and user-side hacks will allow us to get even more power from these CPUs.


----------



## Pier

NoamL said:


> It's just more futureproof, the only gamble really, is how low Apple is willing to go on the GPU side


I wonder if the needs of media composers will change much in the next say 10 years.

In video, every generation is one hell of a leap. From SD to 1080p to 4K to 8K to 16K etc. Every jump is four times more resolution and pixels have a lot more information with HDR and RAW workflows.

Gaming is also pretty bad. A GPU from 5 years ago can barely play the most demanding games of 2022. I mean, the brand new PS5 cannot even play current AAA games at 4K 60Hz.

I could be wrong, but I don't think there is anything in the near future that will increase audio workloads exponentially. I mean, maybe U-He will release Diva Ultra which will fry our CPUs 😂


----------



## KEM

Pier said:


> I wonder if the needs of media composers will change much in the next say 10 years.
> 
> In video, every generation is one hell of a leap. From SD to 1080p to 4K to 8K to 16K etc. Every jump is four times more resolution and pixels have a lot more information with HDR and RAW workflows.
> 
> Gaming is also pretty bad. A GPU from 5 years ago can barely play the most demanding games of 2022. I mean, the brand new PS5 cannot even play current AAA games at 4K 60Hz.
> 
> I could be wrong, but I don't think there is anything in the near future that will increase audio workloads exponentially. I mean, maybe U-He will release Diva Ultra which will fry our CPUs 😂



Yeah music production hasn’t changed much in the past decade, the increase in performance needs has been gradual and I wouldn’t doubt if the next decade takes the same path, which is fine by me as I want this Mac Studio to last me a decade


----------



## gordinho

Given apple's easy return policy it makes sense to test things with the 64gb limit and see how far it goes. 

Sometimes the solution is not more hardware but workflow if money is relevant


----------



## KEM

Soundtoys just went native to Apple Silicon and vst3 support is in the works, I’m hoping by the end of the year I won’t have to run Cubase in Rosetta!


----------



## davidson

KEM said:


> Soundtoys just went native to Apple Silicon and vst3 support is in the works, I’m hoping by the end of the year I won’t have to run Cubase in Rosetta!


Yeah, its been a decent month for silicon plugs.


----------



## Radium

Now I might be sorry I'm going to start this one , but today I just got curious and went to the Apple Store and open the project in Logic Billie Eilish there's no way to compare apples to oranges I just wanted to see how it worked on a Mac Studio Ultra 64 gigs of RAM basically I open the project on my Mac Pro 2019 upscale to 96 khz with a 32 buffer about 1.7 milliseconds delay play fine tried it at the Apple store and got a system overload interesting sound drop outs . So some of you guys with these brand new Ultra 128 I'd love to see the results just play the song and see if you get a system overload I understand it's recorded at 44.1 I just want to give the machine a work load the Mac Pro handle it without complained at all lit up 25%. logic was using about 4.7 at 44.1 to 16 gigs when I up sampled to 96 I'm just curious to see what your Studios do and once again not trying to put the Apple SOC down if you truly start to use them in a professional orchestral arrangement where you can't lock tracks down while composing you need to hear the different microphone positions in the music set . One other thing to be fair my Mac Pro is set up with multiple M2 32tb Drive blades that hold all of the sound files and I boot off an internal 2 tb m.2 because the internal ssd is so slow from Apple . My boot drive now can read and write at 6 gigs a second on the speed test and the 32 terabyte storage easily above 8 gigs a second sustained I think this adds to some of the reasons while you read some people with Mac Pros have issues you just can't set the machine up from the factory 1 tb drive you have to do some detailing and tuning into it to get these results separating the operating system from software this is why I need a modular new Mac Pro if they make one I know this is not a perfect test but the stress files and track counts for logic are a joke i score higher then any number I have seen with my 16 core also when I got rid of the w5700 with thunder bolt ports my slot utility went all green no more over loads with the 6900 xt PC Card the system never overloads on any music program don't know why perhaps less pci bandwidth issues ???


----------



## MusiquedeReve

Radium said:


> Now I might be sorry I'm going to start this one , but today I just got curious and went to the Apple Store and open the project in Logic Billie Eilish there's no way to compare apples to oranges I just wanted to see how it worked on a Mac Studio Ultra 64 gigs of RAM basically I open the project on my Mac Pro 2019 upscale to 96 khz with a 32 buffer about 1.7 milliseconds delay play fine tried it at the Apple store and got a system overload interesting sound drop outs . So some of you guys with these brand new Ultra 128 I'd love to see the results just play the song and see if you get a system overload I understand it's recorded at 44.1 I just want to give the machine a work load the Mac Pro handle it without complained at all lit up 25%. logic was using about 4.7 at 44.1 to 16 gigs when I up sampled to 96 I'm just curious to see what your Studios do and once again not trying to put the Apple SOC down if you truly start to use them in a professional orchestral arrangement where you can't lock tracks down while composing you need to hear the different microphone positions in the music set . One other thing to be fair my Mac Pro is set up with multiple M2 32tb Drive blades that hold all of the sound files and I boot off an internal 2 tb m.2 because the internal ssd is so slow from Apple . My boot drive now can read and write at 6 gigs a second on the speed test and the 32 terabyte storage easily above 8 gigs a second sustained I think this adds to some of the reasons while you read some people with Mac Pros have issues you just can't set the machine up from the factory 1 tb drive you have to do some detailing and tuning into it to get these results separating the operating system from software this is why I need a modular new Mac Pro if they make one I know this is not a perfect test but the stress files and track counts for logic are a joke i score higher then any number I have seen with my 16 core also when I got rid of the w5700 with thunder bolt ports my slot utility went all green no more over loads with the 6900 xt PC Card the system never overloads on any music program don't know why perhaps less pci bandwidth issues ???


I have the W5700x in my MP 2019 - are you saying there are issues with that graphics card that can impact Logic?


----------



## clisma

Radium said:


> Now I might be sorry I'm going to start this one , but today I just got curious and went to the Apple Store and open the project in Logic Billie Eilish there's no way to compare apples to oranges I just wanted to see how it worked on a Mac Studio Ultra 64 gigs of RAM basically I open the project on my Mac Pro 2019 upscale to 96 khz with a 32 buffer about 1.7 milliseconds delay play fine tried it at the Apple store and got a system overload interesting sound drop outs . So some of you guys with these brand new Ultra 128 I'd love to see the results just play the song and see if you get a system overload I understand it's recorded at 44.1 I just want to give the machine a work load the Mac Pro handle it without complained at all lit up 25%. logic was using about 4.7 at 44.1 to 16 gigs when I up sampled to 96 I'm just curious to see what your Studios do and once again not trying to put the Apple SOC down if you truly start to use them in a professional orchestral arrangement where you can't lock tracks down while composing you need to hear the different microphone positions in the music set . One other thing to be fair my Mac Pro is set up with multiple M2 32tb Drive blades that hold all of the sound files and I boot off an internal 2 tb m.2 because the internal ssd is so slow from Apple . My boot drive now can read and write at 6 gigs a second on the speed test and the 32 terabyte storage easily above 8 gigs a second sustained I think this adds to some of the reasons while you read some people with Mac Pros have issues you just can't set the machine up from the factory 1 tb drive you have to do some detailing and tuning into it to get these results separating the operating system from software this is why I need a modular new Mac Pro if they make one I know this is not a perfect test but the stress files and track counts for logic are a joke i score higher then any number I have seen with my 16 core also when I got rid of the w5700 with thunder bolt ports my slot utility went all green no more over loads with the 6900 xt PC Card the system never overloads on any music program don't know why perhaps less pci bandwidth issues ???


Cool. Just one thing: could I get you to start, nay, go back to using punctuation? Seriously, I value what you have to say but it's always hidden in a runaway block of text that makes reading not just hard, but highly unlikely for me. Paragraphing would also help quite a bit. Thank you!


----------



## Radium

Okay very carefully listen to what I'm going to say. From the day I first received my 2019 Mac Pro I was kind of disappointed with the performance their discussions about the AVX 512 flight instructions causing issues with certain software however I'm under the firm belief after removing that graphics card with the Thunderbolt it added to the overall overhead of the system once I removed it I no longer had any more unbalanced Lanes in the device manager multiple phone calls to Apple months of digging around and trying different operating systems from Catalina to Big Sur which were both horrible to now Monterey which seems to love the machine don't ask me how some of my higher end software complains especially Pro Tools professional I figured another two years they'll be up to speed LOL. If you're having issues with your machine try to look at how you have it set up it's not just about the Ram or the processor speed get your operating system sitting on an separate drive within the machine go into safe mode and allow booting off other Drive this also takes the t2 chip out of the equation which I really think results in the fast read and write speeds of my new boot Drive which is sitting on a sonnet card with three other m2's as a hard drive then of course I moved all the other music files a little over 27 terabyte of music files and software from every Spitfire Library every contact Library every Opus Library East West music the list goes on and on been doing this for a lot of years. You'll soon find that your Mac Pro no longer Exhibiting dropouts in issues trying to ask that internal drive to play the music run the daw and computer and keep latency low is a joke remember when you Zero raid that 32 terabyte blade you could lose everything if one of the drives goes down it's a risk I take but it gives me the read speeds I need some of the Kontakt instruments have 12 to 13 gigs information that load into which is slow enough on its own LOL take for instance symphonic AI some of those instruments Take a minute Plus to load if you don't have a fast Drive my 5.1 Mac I go make a cup of coffee and come back now it's within 10 seconds. So I would not just blame your graphics card first set your machine up like I'm telling you and then see if you get overload issues if you're running at factory stock it's going to be pretty hard to get incredible results sorry for my bad English you would think all the years in the states I would get better at this take care


----------



## Radium

I'd love to show you this and send out a test in Cubase 12 I'm sure it would work 11 too Pro but it's copyrighted working on a project Halon 6 with about nine instruments in it Native Instruments kontakt running a vocal ethereal gold Sahara loaded to the rim with effects less than 15 tracks all together using almost 80 gigs of RAM barely scratching the CPU usage sorry for bad grammar and syntax-tax


----------



## davidson

@clisma That'll be a no then.


----------



## pinki

OK now watch very carefully what I'm going to type:
, ; " ''()'.


----------



## Radium

Okay once again I apologize for the lack of punctuation just too much too talk about. Anyway if anyone else out there wants to try Logic Pro demo track let me know how those machines do with that test. If you want to sell your Mac Pro I'll buy that intel garbage could always use some more tracking studio machines take care


----------



## Guavadude

@Radium Can you please list your ssd specs and bays. I'm using iStat now so I can really see what's going on with my drives and they're slow when bouncing out, like kb/s slow.

I know all the cool kids are using SSD for samples but what about audio drives?


----------



## aeliron

Guavadude said:


> @Radium Can you please list your ssd specs and bays. I'm using iStat now so I can really see what's going on with my drives and they're slow when bouncing out, like kb/s slow.
> 
> I know all the cool kids are using SSD for samples but what about audio drives?


We use eleven


----------



## Radium

boot drive 4 m.2 2 tb 980 pro 1 boot the other 3 raid 0 
Sonnet Fusion SSD M.2 4x4 PCIe Card in slot 3​storage drive 
Rocket Q 8TB NVMe PCIe M.2 2280 I 4 of them raid 0​Sonnet Fusion SSD M.2 4x4 PCIe Card slot 4​6900 xt PC Card slot 1 

all other slots filled Pro Tools HDX Core card
RME HDSPE MADI CARD​24 Bit/192 kHz, 2 x 64 PCI Express Car


----------



## clisma

davidson said:


> @clisma That'll be a no then.


Hey, I tried.


----------



## Guavadude

aeliron said:


> We use eleven


my bits go to 2


----------



## clisma

Guavadude said:


> I know all the cool kids are using SSD for samples but what about audio drives?


I use an external SSD. Easy to take with me wherever.


----------



## KEM

Just got an email that my Mac Studio has shipped!!


----------



## Jett Hitt

KEM said:


> Just got an email that my Mac Studio has shipped!!


Ok, well you just piss right on off, 'cause mine hasn't shipped.


----------



## Zedcars

An unpunctuated block of text is not easy for us dyslexics.


----------



## holywilly

KEM said:


> Just got an email that my Mac Studio has shipped!!


Please share your experience with this beast! What DAW are you running?


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo

KEM said:


> Just got an email that my Mac Studio has shipped!!


Fan noise test! And id like to see if it runs underwater.


----------



## KEM

holywilly said:


> Please share your experience with this beast! What DAW are you running?



Cubase!!



Snoobydoobydoo said:


> Fan noise test! And id like to see if it runs underwater.



Will do!! Especially the second one, I’ve been curious about that as well


----------



## NoamL

Mine shipped too. Apple says Apr4, UPS says March28... we'll see...

I'll report back with performance.


----------



## KEM

NoamL said:


> Mine shipped too. Apple says Apr4, UPS says March28... we'll see...
> 
> I'll report back with performance.



Apple is also saying April 4th for mine, I didn’t check UPS I’ll do that now and see what they’re saying


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo

KEM said:


> Apple is also saying April 4th for mine, I didn’t check UPS I’ll do that now and see what they’re saying


Will you go full Monterey or downgrade?
Its the only thing im afraid of.


----------



## KEM

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> Will you go full Monterey or downgrade?
> Its the only thing im afraid of.



You can’t rollback to an older version of MacOS, whatever a Mac ships with is what you have to use, so yeah I’ll have to be on Monterey


----------



## Jett Hitt

I am really looking forward to everyone's feedback about performance. Apple has billed me, so surely it won't be long now. This review from Dan Keen is pretty encouraging.


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo

KEM said:


> You can’t rollback to an older version of MacOS, whatever a Mac ships with is what you have to use, so yeah I’ll have to be on Monterey


Not anymore by the usb boot „hack“?


----------



## KEM

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> Not anymore by the usb boot „hack“?



Not aware of that trick so, maybe?? I wouldn’t risk it though honestly, I’d prefer to just stay on Big Sur but oh well


----------



## KEM

@NoamL UPS says March 29th for me, let’s just hope they’re right and not Apple lol


----------



## Jett Hitt

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> Not anymore by the usb boot „hack“?


Never heard of this, but I bet there are lots of things that would have the potential to be broken.


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo

KEM said:


> Not aware of that trick so, maybe?? I wouldn’t risk it though honestly, I’d prefer to just stay on Big Sur but oh well


Not a risk, but what ran on big sur should run. Im still on Mavericks and cant enjoy Logic updates, but dont miss anything yet.


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo

Jett Hitt said:


> Never heard of this, but I bet there are lots of things that would have the potential to be broken.


Ah, a half empty glass person as me. 
We are the weaklings :(


----------



## gordinho

I'm guessing outputting via rme vs internal audio card will impact logic performance but still an interesting test. Also upsampling entire projects will definitely be harder on the cpu cores even though lots of plugins already internally oversample


----------



## MusiquedeReve

Reading this thread with great interest

If I wanted an M1 Ultra with 64GB unified RAM and storage other than 1TB, my delivery date would be July - however, if I went with just 1TB, I could get it in early May

I currently have 2 external SSDs (connected via USB 3.0) that house all my sample libraries

I read an earlier post in this thread by someone saying that with the new Mac Studios, it would be better to keep all VST libraries on the actual internal SSD rather than external - is this the best way to go?

Alternatively, I could get a MacBook Pro with M1 Max, 64GB unified memory and 4TB internal SSD delivered tomorrow (although Apple will charge me a $9 delivery fee) which I could then use both as a laptop and with my external monitor...

Decisions...decisions - would love the forum's opinions


----------



## KEM

MorphineNoir said:


> Reading this thread with great interest
> 
> If I wanted an M1 Ultra with 64GB unified RAM and storage other than 1TB, my delivery date would be July - however, if I went with just 1TB, I could get it in early May
> 
> I currently have 2 external SSDs (connected via USB 3.0) that house all my sample libraries
> 
> I read an earlier post in this thread by someone saying that with the new Mac Studios, it would be better to keep all VST libraries on the actual internal SSD rather than external - is this the best way to go?
> 
> Alternatively, I could get a MacBook Pro with M1 Max, 64GB unified memory and 4TB internal SSD delivered tomorrow (although Apple will charge me a $9 delivery fee) which I could then use both as a laptop and with my external monitor...
> 
> Decisions...decisions - would love the forum's opinions



Honestly you’d probably be fine with the MacBook Pro, especially if you can get it that quickly. I personally like to having everything on the stock internal drive, for me it’s just easiest and most convenient, but if you already have the externals holding your samples you might as well continue doing that


----------



## chomeaso

Can't even order one in Korea yet! Don't know when it will be available! Possibly we'll be able to get them by the time they announce new M1 Mac Pro


----------



## MusiquedeReve

KEM said:


> Honestly you’d probably be fine with the MacBook Pro, especially if you can get it that quickly. I personally like to having everything on the stock internal drive, for me it’s just easiest and most convenient, but if you already have the externals holding your samples you might as well continue doing that


Well, if I can have everything internally, then I am all for it - just wondering if 4TB will be enough if I currently have 3TB of libraries - I know that it is recommended to only fill SSDs between 70-80% of their max capacity which would mean, on a 4TB internal SSD, I would be only be able to fill it up to about 2.8-3.2TB worth, thus, leaving me longing for more


----------



## KEM

MorphineNoir said:


> Well, if I can have everything internally, then I am all for it - just wondering if 4TB will be enough if I currently have 3TB of libraries - I know that it is recommended to only fill SSDs between 70-80% of their max capacity which would mean, on a 4TB internal SSD, I would be only be able to fill it up to about 2.8-3.2TB worth, thus, leaving me longing for more



Might be best to just stick to the externals then, I got the 4tb myself but I’m not going to fill up even half of it


----------



## MusiquedeReve

KEM said:


> Might be best to just stick to the externals then, I got the 4tb myself but I’m not going to fill up even half of it



I pretty much have all the libraries I will ever need as an amateur composer (famous last words) so I think if I store my 3TB of libraries (I could probably even get rid of a couple I never use and, unfortunately, are not able to be sold, last I checked), I will be ok

I have also been reading that the old "only fill your SSD 70-80%" axiom is a tad bit outdated and now people are saying that you can go 90-93%

Although, this all comes down to the other axiom: "YMMV"


----------



## KEM

MorphineNoir said:


> I pretty much have all the libraries I will ever need as an amateur composer (famous last words) so I think if I store my 3TB of libraries (I could probably even get rid of a couple I never use and, unfortunately, are not able to be sold, last I checked), I will be ok
> 
> I have also been reading that the old "only fill your SSD 70-80%" axiom is a tad bit outdated and now people are saying that you can go 90-93%
> 
> Although, this all comes down to the other axiom: "YMMV"



I have 1tb on my current MacBook Pro and I have about 50gb left, so take with that what you will lol


----------



## rnb_2

MorphineNoir said:


> Well, if I can have everything internally, then I am all for it - just wondering if 4TB will be enough if I currently have 3TB of libraries - I know that it is recommended to only fill SSDs between 70-80% of their max capacity which would mean, on a 4TB internal SSD, I would be only be able to fill it up to about 2.8-3.2TB worth, thus, leaving me longing for more


If you don't need 128GB, I think you'd be fine with the laptop. As much as I'm impressed with the Mac Studio, its announcement (and the lack of announcement of anything else) pushed me to finally get a 14" M1 Pro MacBook Pro - I don't need 64GB, so I don't need the Max. While composers with particularly demanding needs might be able to stress a machine enough to justify the extra CPU cores on the Ultra, most people will be fine with the Max, and if you don't need more than 64GB, I don't think the cost for just the CPU and GPU cores is likely to be justified.

I agree with this Macworld article - while a MacBook Pro with equivalent specs to any given Mac Studio config will cost a few hundred dollars more (since it has a great screen, keyboard, trackpad, etc), the performance will be essentially identical. While you can get a desktop Mac with higher performance than the fastest laptop, that performance level has been pushed so high that very few people actually need it.

As for storage, I'll restate what I said elsewhere: the larger the SSD, the lower the percentage you need to leave free. With a 4TB internal SSD, you're probably fine with 5% free. There's a better case to be made for getting a laptop with all of the storage you need internally than a desktop - it's much more convenient to not carry around an external all the time with a laptop. That said, while the internal storage on the MacBook Pro is much faster than any external drive, you probably won't notice the difference because sample players rarely take advantage of the extremes of SSD performance. I'd get the 4TB more for convenience than performance.


----------



## MusiquedeReve

KEM said:


> I have 1tb on my current MacBook Pro and I have about 50gb left, so take with that what you will lol





rnb_2 said:


> If you don't need 128GB, I think you'd be fine with the laptop. As much as I'm impressed with the Mac Studio, its announcement (and the lack of announcement of anything else) pushed me to finally get a 14" M1 Pro MacBook Pro - I don't need 64GB, so I don't need the Max. While composers with particularly demanding needs might be able to stress a machine enough to justify the extra CPU cores on the Ultra, most people will be fine with the Max, and if you don't need more than 64GB, I don't think the cost for just the CPU and GPU cores is likely to be justified.
> 
> I agree with this Macworld article - while a MacBook Pro with equivalent specs to any given Mac Studio config will cost a few hundred dollars more (since it has a great screen, keyboard, trackpad, etc), the performance will be essentially identical. While you can get a desktop Mac with higher performance than the fastest laptop, that performance level has been pushed so high that very few people actually need it.
> 
> As for storage, I'll restate what I said elsewhere: the larger the SSD, the lower the percentage you need to leave free. With a 4TB internal SSD, you're probably fine with 5% free. There's a better case to be made for getting a laptop with all of the storage you need internally than a desktop - it's much more convenient to not carry around an external all the time with a laptop. That said, while the internal storage on the MacBook Pro is much faster than any external drive, you probably won't notice the difference because sample players rarely take advantage of the extremes of SSD performance. I'd get the 4TB more for convenience than performance.




It is done!


----------



## KEM

MorphineNoir said:


> It is done!



Smart man!! Excited to hear what you think of it, I can say from first hand experience that it is the best looking screen I’ve ever seen before


----------



## MusiquedeReve

KEM said:


> Smart man!! Excited to hear what you think of it, I can say from first hand experience that it is the best looking screen I’ve ever seen before


Looks like my Sunday will be spent preparing to send my Mac Pro off to the buyer and setting up the new MBP

I think I am going to do a fresh install of all my apps rather than a migration - I love starting with a clean slate


----------



## Grilled Cheese

MorphineNoir said:


> It is done!


That’s the exact spec I chose. Most of my favourite sample libraries are on the internal SSD. More than twice the performance of my 2013 Mac Pro, but half the price of a 2019 Mac Pro with similar specs. Sits silently on my desk with all peripherals attached to a hub so there’s just one little cable to unplug if I want to get mobile. Still can’t believe there’s this much power in a laptop that’s truly silent 95% of the time.


----------



## MusiquedeReve

Grilled Cheese said:


> That’s the exact spec I chose. Most of my favourite sample libraries are on the internal SSD. More than twice the performance of my 2013 Mac Pro, but half the price of a 2019 Mac Pro with similar specs. Sits silently on my desk with all peripherals attached to a hub so there’s just one little cable to unplug if I want to get mobile. Still can’t believe there’s this much power in a laptop that’s truly silent 95% of the time.


Great minds think alike

Our setups differ in that I have an XDR display, use the Apogee Symphony Desktop (well, it is being repaired at the moment so using my Focusrite 18i20) and have Dynaudio LYD48 monitors (although I am quite sure those Genelecs sound equally as marvelous)

Now, the question remains - do I get a Himalayan salt lamp?


----------



## cuttime

Grilled Cheese said:


> That’s the exact spec I chose. Most of my favourite sample libraries are on the internal SSD. More than twice the performance of my 2013 Mac Pro, but half the price of a 2019 Mac Pro with similar specs. Sits silently on my desk with all peripherals attached to a hub so there’s just one little cable to unplug if I want to get mobile. Still can’t believe there’s this much power in a laptop that’s truly silent 95% of the time.


You must live in a very dry environment. Those salt lamps (as cool as they may be!) are hygroscopic, and absorb massive amounts of moisture out of the air. My wife has installed a number of them throughout the house, and after a rainy season, they weep and dissolve, emitting a strong brine solution all over the place, destroying flooring and shelving all over the house. If I had one next to my rig, all would be destroyed.


----------



## Grilled Cheese

cuttime said:


> You must live in a very dry environment. Those salt lamps (as cool as they may be!) are hygroscopic, and absorb massive amounts of moisture out of the air. My wife has installed a number of them throughout the house, and after a rainy season, they weep and dissolve, emitting a strong brine solution all over the place, destroying flooring and shelving all over the house. If I had one next to my rig, all would be destroyed.


I’ve experienced that in my house, but my studio environment has a very well managed atmosphere. 👍🏻


----------



## Grilled Cheese

MorphineNoir said:


> Great minds think alike
> 
> Our setups differ in that I have an XDR display, use the Apogee Symphony Desktop (well, it is being repaired at the moment so using my Focusrite 18i20) and have Dynaudio LYD48 monitors (although I am quite sure those Genelecs sound equally as marvelous)
> 
> Now, the question remains - do I get a Himalayan salt lamp?


Definitely get the salt lamp. I recommend the ones that come with a free pair of Genelc 8351B’s and a 7360a sub.


----------



## shropshirelad

MorphineNoir said:


> Looks like my Sunday will be spent preparing to send my Mac Pro off to the buyer and setting up the new MBP
> 
> I think I am going to do a fresh install of all my apps rather than a migration - I love starting with a clean slate


My Mac Studio has shipped and is arriving on Tuesday - I'm planning on doing the same even though it'll probably take several days!


----------



## wayne_rowley

MorphineNoir said:


> It is done!


Nice. Benchmarks are showing that the Max chip in the studio is no faster than the one in the MacBook Pros (which are quieter than the studio).

I’m hoping we get an M2 Pro Mac Mini later this year. There’s a good chance as they haven’t yet discontinued the high-end Intel Mini.

Wayne


----------



## NoamL

KEM said:


> @NoamL UPS says March 29th for me, let’s just hope they’re right and not Apple lol


You're in the central USA right? I'm in California.

Computer is currently hanging out in Shanghai.... arrived there the 25th.


----------



## Zedcars

You know, given the contradictory ETA info between courier and Apple, it would have been a nice touch for Apple to bundle an Air Tag linked to your account so you could track it’s real-time progress more accurately. They’re £29 and I’ve just spent an arm and a leg. I guess they can’t afford it. Wouldn’t want them to go bankrupt £€$.


----------



## Vik

If there is a way to link an Air Tag with a user account before it's shipped, Apple wouldn't even have to pay for it: the user could just order an Air Tag and have it shipped with the Mac.


----------



## SoundChris

The Question for me is: Would that change anything for me concerning my workflow / library use compared to my "old" Mac pro late 2015 (maxed out - 12 core / 24 virtual, 128 GB Ram, 1 TB PCIe-Based Flash and external Thunderbolt 2 streaming solutions). For me the answer at this point is: No.

This is a fantastic machine of course, but even for complexer projects the Mac Pro late 2015 stil does it´s job quite well without noticable performance issues and I will try to use it as long as possible. Once there are hardware requirements that demand a new system I am "in" again :D


----------



## davidson

MorphineNoir said:


> Well, if I can have everything internally, then I am all for it - just wondering if 4TB will be enough if I currently have 3TB of libraries - I know that it is recommended to only fill SSDs between 70-80% of their max capacity which would mean, on a 4TB internal SSD, I would be only be able to fill it up to about 2.8-3.2TB worth, thus, leaving me longing for more


And dont forget your OS and general day to day disc space needing duties (downloads etc). Take it from me, you wont be happy with 4gb.


----------



## Zedcars

Vik said:


> If there is a way to link an Air Tag with a user account before it's shipped, Apple wouldn't even have to pay for it: the user could just order an Air Tag and have it shipped with the Mac.


Yes. I think they should just bundle it for free though with items over say £1,000 or something. Of course they wouldn’t do that, but just saying it would be advantageous and add to the customer experience. Maybe there’s a technical reason why they can’t do it.


----------



## Zedcars

davidson said:


> And dont forget your OS and general day to day disc space needing duties (downloads etc). Take it from me, you wont be happy with 4gb.


Yep. Work out what you need now, then double it. Your future self will thank you. I’m going from a 512GB OS SSD to a 1TB. Previously I had a 256GB OS SSD. All my libraries are on fast external drives as I prefer it that way.


----------



## Spid

Just in case it was not mentioned before (sorry, I haven’t read all 45 pages of comments), but the 4TB and 8TB have a slightly faster debit rate than the 1TB and 2TB SSDs. I do believe 4TB and 8TB versions have 2 SSDs working together, while 1TB and 2TB version “only” have one. (Based on the fact there are two ports on the Mac Studio). 

So if loading speed is a must have criteria for you, you need to go with the 4TB or 8TB version.


----------



## Grilled Cheese

Spid said:


> Just in case it was not mentioned before (sorry, I haven’t read all 45 pages of comments), but the 4TB and 8TB have a slightly faster debit rate than the 1TB and 2TB SSDs. I do believe 4TB and 8TB versions have 2 SSDs working together, while 1TB and 2TB version “only” have one. (Based on the fact there are two ports on the Mac Studio).
> 
> So if loading speed is a must have criteria for you, you need to go with the 4TB or 8TB version.


I heard the exact opposite; that one SSD is used regardless of size. 

Can anyone confirm this either way?


----------



## KEM

NoamL said:


> You're in the central USA right? I'm in California.
> 
> Computer is currently hanging out in Shanghai.... arrived there the 25th.



Yeah I’m in St. Louis, Shanghai also seems to be the latest update on mine as well


----------



## KEM

MorphineNoir said:


> Looks like my Sunday will be spent preparing to send my Mac Pro off to the buyer and setting up the new MBP
> 
> I think I am going to do a fresh install of all my apps rather than a migration - I love starting with a clean slate



I’m using Migration Assistant when my Mac Studio comes in, the thought of doing a clean install is too daunting and I don’t think I could bring myself to do it lol


----------



## rnb_2

KEM said:


> I’m using Migration Assistant when my Mac Studio comes in, the thought of doing a clean install is too daunting and I don’t think I could bring myself to do it lol


I don’t regret starting from scratch, since there were a number of things I wanted to set up differently (I was going from 512GB to 2TB internal), but it was such a PITA. Took almost two weeks, but that included going over the M1 mini & Air to make sure that I deactivated everything that I could and to check my preferences for everything important.


----------



## Zedcars

MorphineNoir said:


> Looks like my Sunday will be spent preparing to send my Mac Pro off to the buyer and setting up the new MBP
> 
> I think I am going to do a fresh install of all my apps rather than a migration - I love starting with a clean slate


That’s exactly what I’m going to do. I think it makes sense although is a pain in the bum. I have too much crap that I don’t want to be transferred over to the new system.


----------



## Spid

Grilled Cheese said:


> I heard the exact opposite; that one SSD is used regardless of size.
> 
> Can anyone confirm this either way?


On the Max Tech YouTube video, we can clearly see there are 2 ports for SSDs. And they tested the speed between 1TB/2TB and 4TB/8TB and the later are a little bit faster. 

I can run some speed test on my MBP 8TB if anyone need and if it would help.


----------



## KEM

rnb_2 said:


> I don’t regret starting from scratch, since there were a number of things I wanted to set up differently (I was going from 512GB to 2TB internal), but it was such a PITA. Took almost two weeks, but that included going over the M1s to make sure that I deactivated everything that I could and to check my preferences for everything important.



That’s why I got CleanMyMac, so I could get rid of all the junk and make sure everything is able to transition smoothly, when the Mac Studio gets here I’m gonna run it one more time right before I migrate to really make sure there’s nothing there that needs to go, I’ve went through every plugin I own and made sure to download the latest versions of all of them so whatever is native to Apple Silicon is already on my computer

Now the question is, do I update my current MacBook to Monterey and then migrate, or do I keep it on Big Sur and start using Monterey on the Mac Studio after migrating?


----------



## nas

Hi Folks,

Not sure if this has already been posted, but I just came across this video describing some more real-life scenarios for music production and comparing the M1 Pro, Max, and Ultra chips. It's in a language I don't understand but using the CC (Closed Caption) option the English translation becomes available. This is actually one of the more helpful reviews on the Mac Studio for Music production I've seen so far:


----------



## rnb_2

KEM said:


> That’s why I got CleanMyMac, so I could get rid of all the junk and make sure everything is able to transition smoothly, when the Mac Studio gets here I’m gonna run it one more time right before I migrate to really make sure there’s nothing there that needs to go, I’ve went through every plugin I own and made sure to download the latest versions of all of them so whatever is native to Apple Silicon is already on my computer
> 
> Now the question is, do I update my current MacBook to Monterey and then migrate, or do I keep it on Big Sur and start using Monterey on the Mac Studio after migrating?


I think you'd be fine going from Big Sur to Monterey - they're not that different.

For me, it wasn't that I had a ton of old stuff hanging around - I think I did a clean install on at least one of the M1 machines at some point - but that I was moving some things to internal storage that used to live on external drives. I knew that the default installations assumed internal storage (and I had to change those during install on the old machines), so I wanted to let as many things as possible install with their default settings so I wouldn't have to remember how I set things up down the line. I probably won't upgrade again for a few years, so the new machine will be a good base for future migrations.


----------



## MusiquedeReve

Grilled Cheese said:


> Definitely get the salt lamp. I recommend the ones that comes with a free pair of Genelc 8351B’s and a 7360a sub.


Is that only on Black Friday?





rnb_2 said:


> I don’t regret starting from scratch, since there were a number of things I wanted to set up differently (I was going from 512GB to 2TB internal), but it was such a PITA. Took almost two weeks, but that included going over the M1 mini & Air to make sure that I deactivated everything that I could and to check my preferences for everything important.





Zedcars said:


> That’s exactly what I’m going to do. I think it makes sense although is a pain in the bum. I have too much crap that I don’t want to be transferred over to the new system.


Yeah so much nonsense piles up on the hard drive from daily use and downloads, iMessage, etc.





KEM said:


> That’s why I got CleanMyMac, so I could get rid of all the junk and make sure everything is able to transition smoothly, when the Mac Studio gets here I’m gonna run it one more time right before I migrate to really make sure there’s nothing there that needs to go, I’ve went through every plugin I own and made sure to download the latest versions of all of them so whatever is native to Apple Silicon is already on my computer
> 
> Now the question is, do I update my current MacBook to Monterey and then migrate, or do I keep it on Big Sur and start using Monterey on the Mac Studio after migrating?


I have read so many negatives re: CleanMyMac being akin to malware that I have avoided ever purchasing it - seems like you have been very happy with it - perhaps I should rethink?


----------



## KEM

MorphineNoir said:


> I have read so many negatives re: CleanMyMac being akin to malware that I have avoided ever purchasing it - seems like you have been very happy with it - perhaps I should rethink?



CleanMyMac is very safe, a lot of the big tech review websites have covered it and all of them had positive things to say, I’ve had no issues with it and so far it’s freed up about 20gb of storage for me!! I definitely recommend it, and you can always just run it once, get rid of all the junk and useless stuff, and then delete the app, no harm done


----------



## Jett Hitt

MorphineNoir said:


> I have read so many negatives re: CleanMyMac being akin to malware that I have avoided ever purchasing it - seems like you have been very happy with it - perhaps I should rethink?


I wonder if you’re confusing CleanMyMac with another utility that was really ubiquitous quite a while back. I can’t recall the name of it, but even Apple labeled it as Malware. There used to be ads for it everywhere.

Edit: I’m pretty sure it was called MacKeeper.


----------



## KEM

Jett Hitt said:


> I wonder if you’re confusing CleanMyMac with another utility that was really ubiquitous quite a while back. I can’t recall the name of it, but even Apple labeled it as Malware. There used to be ads for it everywhere.
> 
> Edit: I’m pretty sure it was called MacKeeper.



Yeah CleanMyMac is 100% safe, I haven’t had a single issue with it


----------



## HCMarkus

I'll be migrating from a 2010 3.33 12 core Mac Pro to a Mac Studio Ultra. I don't plan to use Migration Assistant, primarily due to the fact that we are moving from X86 to ARM CPUs here. I want to carefully curate what apps and plugins I bring over to the new machine.

In my case, my sample libraries reside on two SATA SSDs that are housed internally in the Mac Pro. They will be moved to external USB3 cases. The PCIe NVMe SSD that holds my project files will move to a Thunderbolt enclosure. The internal HDs to which I do session backups will be replaced by an external HDs, as will my internal archive HD. My Time Machine drive is currently external, so no change there. BackBlaze is my cloud backup service; hopefully the SSDs will be recognized (if I don't change their names) and won't have to upload again.

I've used Migration Assistant successfully on several occasions. In general, it works well. But the move from Intel to Apple Silicon is a one-time thing. As drastic as the changes are (obscured by Rosetta2), the time seems right for a fresh start.


----------



## pinki

KEM said:


> Yeah I’m in St. Louis, Shanghai also seems to be the latest update on mine as well


I don't want to be Debbie Downer but Shanghai has just gone into ultra severe lockdown..


----------



## KEM

pinki said:


> I don't want to be Debbie Downer but Shanghai has just gone into ultra severe lockdown..



Don’t say that!!


----------



## pinki

KEM said:


> Don’t say that!!


Sorry! I just read it on BBC news...


----------



## Jett Hitt

pinki said:


> Sorry! I just read it on BBC news...


Fake news. . . .


----------



## KEM

pinki said:


> Sorry! I just read it on BBC news...



Well they better keep their shipping open!!


----------



## pinki

They will, they will 

I'm the wrong guy to be posting this news as I've been waiting for my Expressive Osmose to ship since ...2019 
Now c'mon, that is NOT going to happen to you.


----------



## Zedcars

KEM said:


> Don’t say that!!


On the plus side, my delivery says it's been collected from Shenzhen which is allowing factories to resume operations since about a week ago.


----------



## Zedcars

pinki said:


> They will, they will
> 
> I'm the wrong guy to be posting this news as I've been waiting for my Expressive Osmose to ship since ...2019
> Now c'mon, that is NOT going to happen to you.


Oh my goodness. That's pretty bad.

I wonder if @KEM will get his delivered before the Mac Studio M3 Max Ultra Extreme is released in 3 years time.


----------



## KEM

Now I’m nervous…


----------



## Michael Antrum

Zedcars said:


> Oh my goodness. That's pretty bad.
> 
> I wonder if @KEM will get his delivered before the Mac Studio M3 Max Ultra Extreme is released in 3 years time.


I bought some M3 Max Ultra Extreme this morning as I have a touch of the flu coming on. I got Blackcurrant flavour......


----------



## NoamL

Yeah now I'm really not feeling good about this. Dammit.

I might have to go out and get a 64gb machine for rent just to cover until the Studio arrives...


----------



## pinki

We are talking Apple though...I mean if anyone can get things done it's Apple. It'll be fine. Pretend I never mentioned it


----------



## KEM

pinki said:


> We are talking Apple though...I mean if anyone can get things done it's Apple. It'll be fine. Pretend I never mentioned it



Yeah I trust them enough to figure something out, they’re not gonna let their products go to waste!!


----------



## colony nofi

HCMarkus said:


> I'll be migrating from a 2010 3.33 12 core Mac Pro to a Mac Studio Ultra. I don't plan to use Migration Assistant, primarily due to the fact that we are moving from X86 to ARM CPUs here. I want to carefully curate what apps and plugins I bring over to the new machine.


YES!
Moving from pretty much any machine (other than an arm mac) to this one and you will likely be better off starting from scratch.

There's a few good reasons to do this
It forces one to go through all your plugins, and find out which ones are M1 native and which are run through rosetta. It will also let you know for instance if you are on cubase 12 and want to run native, which are still only VST2 (and won't be able to be used)
Planning which way you choose to setup / run is tricky.
Most likely will go the rosetta 2 route still, and just keep updating to M1 as it happens. Soundtoys for instance just released their M1 native plugs, but not for VST3. Yet. So cubase users are stuck with Rosetta. 2C have yet to give word for when their plugs might be native.

Some folk may wish to try go native. We are for our post suites. I'll have 2 m-based computers for composing. The MBP I'm installing from scratch to use Rosetta, but once the Studio arrives (early May) I'll likely check all the websites for my plugins and see what is what - and hopefully build a native only install. Once that install is made, I'll run it a few days, check it, then backup the OS to our studio server.

I'm lucky I still have my trash-can (and a 2018 MBP) as backup machines - and they both still work great / function good enough for current projects (which will finish june/july) and then I'll make the leap and attempt to do all my production on M based machines. Slowly slowly. 

Migration assistant is very cool - don't get me wrong.

For software like cubase though, it can be hit and miss. There is a STRONG argument for at least trashing all your prefs and settings and starting from scratch on cubase. You can for sure bring back in your own key commands / PLE presets etc, but its worth re-building all the databases as well as prefs for general stability. I've seen some pretty wack things happen with cubase prefs over time. I have no idea for logic and only open it when required to work with other composers.

Another excellent reason is just to be very cognisant of the additional utilities you are running - and which of those maybe using resources on your machine that you might just be able to do without. Its like an audit. Its painful, but always worth it. Use the activity monitor and really look at what is going on with your computer. Dropbox around 6 months ago had a situation where it impacted on our cubase performance - something their support was surprised at, but found the problem and issued an update super quick. There will LOTS of these things for software going from intel to arm builds.


----------



## colony nofi

Spid said:


> On the Max Tech YouTube video, we can clearly see there are 2 ports for SSDs. And they tested the speed between 1TB/2TB and 4TB/8TB and the later are a little bit faster.
> 
> I can run some speed test on my MBP 8TB if anyone need and if it would help.


Heya! So here's a quick and super dirty ATTO disk benchmark from my M1Max MBP (8TB internal drive). Dirty - because I'm using the computer at the same time and some of the out-lying data points likely are because other things are going on. I've put in some screenshots early in the benchmark below so you can see whats going on with the super small transfer sizes.


----------



## Soundbed

UPS says mine is arriving in two days: Wednesday the 30th. Apple still says April 6-13. 

It’s currently “at the clearing agency”…which appears to mean it’s going through Customs, so it should be in the US (where I live) now.


----------



## AndyP

I will wait before I change. Currently my iMac i9 and the MacPro 2013 do their job without any problems. Moreover, 128 GB RAM work in the iMac and 64 GB RAM in the MacPro.
Since I use Cubase 11 and don't really trust Rosetta (I think at the moment the performance gain would be manageable), I'm waiting until the end of the year and for more audio reviews.
My 2 Cheese Grater are soon for sale, I no longer use them at all. Consume too much power anyway.

What really appeals to me about the MacStudio is the low power consumption. Electricity is getting more expensive all the time, and in most cases I should be able to get by with 64 to 128 GB RAM (electricity savings with 12 hours of operation a day around 300€ - 400€ a year are not to be scoffed at). 
So the time to switch to Apple silicon will come, but it's still too early for me. Maybe there will be the first M2 soon, I'm curious if there will be a good alternative to the MacStudios.


----------



## Nimrod7

Apple's tracking in EU sucks.
They ship with a different company from China -> Europe, and with DHL within EU, so you don't have any updates until the last day.






Shipped 24th, no updates until today.
Judging from the MacBook it can take 7-8 days to get an update, and the next day it will get delivered.


----------



## Jax

AndyP said:


> I will wait before I change. Currently my iMac i9 and the MacPro 2013 do their job without any problems. Moreover, 128 GB RAM work in the iMac and 64 GB RAM in the MacPro.
> Since I use Cubase 11 and don't really trust Rosetta (I think at the moment the performance gain would be manageable), I'm waiting until the end of the year and for more audio reviews.
> My 2 Cheese Grater are soon for sale, I no longer use them at all. Consume too much power anyway.


I am of a similar mindset. Beyond software compatibility and power consumption concerns, we have yet to see how the new AS Mac Pro is configured. My fear is that I spend $6,000+ on a Mac Studio Ultra only for Apple to turn around unveil a modular MP that (somehow) allows the user to upgrade RAM, SSD, etc. Now if the price of the "base" MP is astronomical, it will be a much harder decision. I don't suspect that will be the case though.

In any event, we'll find out at WWDC which starts on June 6th.


----------



## KEM

Jax said:


> I am of a similar mindset. Beyond software compatibility and power consumption concerns, we have yet to see how the new AS Mac Pro is configured. My fear is that I spend $6,000+ on a Mac Studio Ultra only for Apple to turn around unveil a modular MP that (somehow) allows the user to upgrade RAM, SSD, etc. Now if the price of the "base" MP is astronomical, it will be a much harder decision. I don't suspect that will be the case though.
> 
> In any event, we'll find out at WWDC which starts on June 6th.



RAM definitely won’t be upgradable, my storage is likely, and maybe a few other things, but I’m pretty confident in saying the Mac Studio will be more than enough for most peoples needs


----------



## BassClef

Has anyone received their Studio Ultra order yet? My order went in 10 hours after the announcement and shows a ship date of May 11-25.


----------



## Zedcars

Nimrod7 said:


> Apple's tracking in EU sucks.
> They ship with a different company from China -> Europe, and with DHL within EU, so you don't have any updates until the last day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shipped 24th, no updates until today.
> Judging from the MacBook it can take 7-8 days to get an update, and the next day it will get delivered.


That’s a better update than I’ve got. Mine shipped on 23rd and still no change. Seems like it’s still sitting in Shenzhen, China.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

The temptation: "I might wish I had more [memory/storage/processing] later, therefore I should add it at the checkout counter.

What the homunculus on my shoulder shouts in my ear: the good news about machines not being upgradeable is that Macs hold their value very well. If you need more [xxx], you can just sell this machine and buy the next one without losing a whole lot.


----------



## Jett Hitt

I didn't realize that my bank had a $2.5k limit on my card, so it was declined when Apple processed it. This all transpired at 3:00 am, so it was 6 hours before I got the situation rectified. I am still showing ship dates April 7-14, but I suspect that this moved me way back in the queue.


----------



## Zedcars

Jett Hitt said:


> I didn't realize that my bank had a $2.5k limit on my card, so it was declined when Apple processed it. This all transpired at 3:00 am, so it was 6 hours before I got the situation rectified. I am still showing ship dates April 7-14, but I suspect that this moved me way back in the queue.


Similar issue with me. I used Apple Pay and had no idea about the £2,000 limit. And apparently Apple didn’t bother to tell me at the checkout either (ridiculous!), so it was declined. Rang my bank who couldn’t do anything. Then rang Apple and had to try again with my bank card. The estimated delivery date did change from 21st Match to 1st April a few days later but I don’t think it was because of the payment problem, but the lockdowns in China.


----------



## KEM

My mom called me and told me I had a package and my heart almost stopped thinking my Mac Studio came in early, I ran upstairs and it was just some guitar picks I ordered recently…


----------



## Jett Hitt

Zedcars said:


> Similar issue with me. I used Apple Pay and had no idea about the £2,000 limit. And apparently Apple didn’t bother to tell me at the checkout either (ridiculous!), so it was declined. Rang my bank who couldn’t do anything. Then rang Apple and had to try again with my bank card. The estimated delivery date did change from 21st Match to 1st April a few days later but I don’t think it was because of the payment problem, but the lockdowns in China.


It is a strange thing. I got an authorization text when I ordered it, and I immediately okayed it. Then the payment was declined when they processed it a week later.


----------



## MusiquedeReve

KEM said:


> My mom called me and told me I had a package and my heart almost stopped thinking my Mac Studio came in early, I ran upstairs and it was just some guitar picks I ordered recently…


Which picks?
I just got my first ever order from V-Picks (I normally use Fender Thin but I am liking the V-Picks - which are far from thin)


----------



## KEM

MorphineNoir said:


> Which picks?
> I just got my first ever order from V-Picks (I normally use Fender Thin but I am liking the V-Picks - which are far from thin)



I can’t use anything else but these, I bought 2 more packs and I already have an entire bowl full of them:









Dunlop Misha Mansoor Custom Delrin FLOW Guitar Picks - Studio .73mm - 24-pack


Delrin Sharp Guitar Picks with Sculpted Edges - .73mm, 24-pack




www.sweetwater.com


----------



## naturalahvi

Jett Hitt said:


> It is a strange thing. I got an authorization text when I ordered it, and I immediately okayed it. Then the payment was declined when they processed it a week later.


Same happend to me. 1.5 hour in phone with bank and Apple solved all but who or why it failed.


----------



## davidson

Dunlop greens or gtfo!


----------



## aeliron

KEM said:


> I can’t use anything else but these, I bought 2 more packs and I already have an entire bowl full of them:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dunlop Misha Mansoor Custom Delrin FLOW Guitar Picks - Studio .73mm - 24-pack
> 
> 
> Delrin Sharp Guitar Picks with Sculpted Edges - .73mm, 24-pack
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sweetwater.com


Is their RAM upgradadable?


----------



## KEM

aeliron said:


> Is their RAM upgradadable?



Yes


----------



## Michael Antrum

What a stupid question. The correct amount of wham is two.....


----------



## KerrySmith

If you are a guitar player, and buying a bunch of different orchestra libraries, you really owe it to yourself to get a variety of picks and see how they affect the sound of your playing on different instruments. If you have clients, it's a must.


----------



## NoamL

@KEM UPS now says it left China and will deliver by the 31st; Apple says the 4th.


----------



## MusiquedeReve

KerrySmith said:


> If you are a guitar player, and buying a bunch of different orchestra libraries, you really owe it to yourself to get a variety of picks and see how they affect the sound of your playing on different instruments. If you have clients, it's a must.


Exactly - I have an assortment of picks made of different materials:

plastic
acrylic
stainless steel
wood
nylon
glass


----------



## KEM

NoamL said:


> @KEM UPS now says it left China and will deliver by the 31st; Apple says the 4th.



UPS hasn’t changed for me but Apple is now saying the 4th, I’ll probably just give up on tracking it and let it get here when it gets here lol


----------



## KEM

KerrySmith said:


> If you are a guitar player, and buying a bunch of different orchestra libraries, you really owe it to yourself to get a variety of picks and see how they affect the sound of your playing on different instruments. If you have clients, it's a must.



Thankfully that search is completely over for me, for what I play and how I play it the Misha Mansoor Dunlop’s are perfect!!


----------



## colony nofi

Jett Hitt said:


> I didn't realize that my bank had a $2.5k limit on my card, so it was declined when Apple processed it. This all transpired at 3:00 am, so it was 6 hours before I got the situation rectified. I am still showing ship dates April 7-14, but I suspect that this moved me way back in the queue.


I had a similar thing happen last year with my macbook pro. I did a chat with apple support and they sorted it then and there (put the charge thru correctly in 2 different pieces) and there was no final delay. Other option is to call your bank to allow a one time larger charge - apple usually tries a second time in about 24hours if I remember rightly.


----------



## playz123

Wow, you folks are so fortunate. i ordered my Studio Ultra here in Canada, the day it was announced, and was informed it would be 6-7 weeks (April 27-May 2) before it arrived, and my account hasn’t shown any change since then.


----------



## KEM

UPS is now saying Thursday for me but none of the tracking details have changed, still says on the way in Shanghai


----------



## davidson

Friday the 1st for me.


----------



## wayne_rowley

davidson said:


> Friday the 1st for me.


They're just foolin' with you! 

(Couldn't resist, sorry..)


----------



## Jett Hitt

I ordered on March 9, and mine has moved to "preparing to ship" as of today. Arrival date is still April 7-14.


----------



## shropshirelad

Looking good for tomorrow - it's been on quite a journey!


----------



## Zedcars

shropshirelad said:


> Looking good for tomorrow - it's been on quite a journey!


Oooh, that’s great! You made me check my tracking for the 10th time today and after no change whatsoever for many days it’s actually saying it has arrived in good ol’ blighty! 





Looks like UPS has superior tracking to crappy DH Smell.


----------



## Soundbed

Did anyone post this yet? My quick read is you cannot swap an nvme ssd in the studio because Apple integrates with the pci bus without using (the industry typical) nvme protocol.









Mac Studio SSD does not work on NVMe, top-level ARM64 SSD controller in M1 Ultra makes it nearly impossible to swap-out or add raw storage modules


The so-called "removable SSDs" in the Apple Mac Studio aren't actual SSDs but just raw storage modules. Apple silicon Macs do not use the standard NVMe protocol but instead use their own implementation via PCIe. This means, it is not possible to simply swap-out or add storage at whim to the Mac...




www.notebookcheck.net


----------



## cuttime

Soundbed said:


> Did anyone post this yet? My quick read is you cannot swap an nvme ssd in the studio because Apple integrates with the pci bus without using (the industry typical) nvme protocol.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac Studio SSD does not work on NVMe, top-level ARM64 SSD controller in M1 Ultra makes it nearly impossible to swap-out or add raw storage modules
> 
> 
> The so-called "removable SSDs" in the Apple Mac Studio aren't actual SSDs but just raw storage modules. Apple silicon Macs do not use the standard NVMe protocol but instead use their own implementation via PCIe. This means, it is not possible to simply swap-out or add storage at whim to the Mac...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.notebookcheck.net


FMI:









Explaining the Mac Studio’s removable SSDs, and why you can’t simply swap them out


To upgrade the Mac's SSDs, it helps to understand how they work.




arstechnica.com


----------



## HCMarkus

My Studio is supposed to arrive Thursday per UPS, but next week according to Apple. Either way, pretty dang soon!


----------



## KEM

Now UPS is saying it’s in Incheon, Korea


----------



## Zedcars

KEM said:


> Now UPS is saying it’s in Incheon, Korea


It’s Incheon closer…


----------



## Jett Hitt

I spent quite a bit of time weighing the pros and cons of the Max vs. the Ultra, and in the end, I decide for the Max. The video below along with several others I have seen makes me pretty glad I did that.


----------



## KEM

Zedcars said:


> It’s Incheon closer…



Not close enough!!


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Would be interesting to see a poll on which models those whom have bought it chose. I wonder what the most common choice has been.


----------



## Zedcars

Mine’s arrived at Gatwick, UK which is only 1/2 hour drive away (22 miles). With a bit of luck it may come today or tomorrow.


----------



## KEM

Mine now says it’s cleared customs!


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo

Zedcars said:


> It’s Incheon closer…


바보


----------



## Zedcars

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> 바보


가혹한


----------



## Zedcars




----------



## wayne_rowley

Jett Hitt said:


> I spent quite a bit of time weighing the pros and cons of the Max vs. the Ultra, and in the end, I decide for the Max. The video below along with several others I have seen makes me pretty glad I did that.



Currently, while it seems like a good machine, it also seems a little disappointing:

- Throttled performance (no benefit of desktop form factor/larger heatsink/fan over laptop)
- Costly RAM upgrades (i.e. lack of RAM flexibility compared with other platforms)
- Possible noise issues from the fan
- Some reported bluetooth dropouts as well

I'm looking forward to seeing some real-world reviews from composers and music producers with the Mac Studio.


----------



## Jett Hitt

Uh oh, I got a shipment notification from UPS, and then UPS immediately issued a statement: "Package is delayed in transit. Delivery will be rescheduled." They might be shutting China down. Apple's date went from April 7 to April 12.


----------



## davidson

wayne_rowley said:


> Currently, while it seems like a good machine, it also seems a little disappointing:
> 
> - Throttled performance (no benefit of desktop form factor/larger heatsink/fan over laptop)


Well it runs a hell of a lot cooler than the max laptop and costs 40% less, so there's that.

Channels like Max Tech referenced above create a dozen videos a week, constantly trying to out-drama the previous one with their OTT titles, purely for views. Yeah it was cool he stripped a studio down but again, just for views.

Last week they had a video on why you should avoid the max studio and buy the laptop. Thats it, like it was fact. They completely ignored the two *huge* benefits I made above.

Also, the word throttling is getting thrown around left right and centre on the net. I say it's just over-engineered. I don't want my CPU overclocked and running at 91 degrees thanks.

/End rant


----------



## Jett Hitt

To allay some fears, perhaps the UPS delay message is standard. It was removed within an hour, and I have now been given a delivery date of April 1. Given that the device is still in Shenzhen, I am not sure how they accomplish that. I've had UPS sit on a package in K.C. for a week before. But for those waiting, it seems that things are still moving along.

Now perhaps @Zedcars can bedazzle us with some track counts while we wait


----------



## Zedcars

Jett Hitt said:


> To allay some fears, perhaps the UPS delay message is standard. It was removed within an hour, and I have now been given a delivery date of April 1. Given that the device is still in Shenzhen, I am not sure how they accomplish that. I've had UPS sit on a package in K.C. for a week before. But for those waiting, it seems that things are still moving along.
> 
> Now perhaps @Zedcars can bedazzle us with some track counts while we wait


It’s going to be a while I’m afraid. Due to other commitments I probably won’t get a chance to play with it until the weekend.


----------



## wayne_rowley

davidson said:


> Well it runs a hell of a lot cooler than the max laptop and costs 40% less, so there's that.
> 
> Channels like Max Tech referenced above create a dozen videos a week, constantly trying to out-drama the previous one with their OTT titles, purely for views. Yeah it was cool he stripped a studio down but again, just for views.
> 
> Last week they had a video on why you should avoid the max studio and buy the laptop. Thats it, like it was fact. They completely ignored the two *huge* benefits I made above.
> 
> Also, the word throttling is getting thrown around left right and centre on the net. I say it's just over-engineered. I don't want my CPU overclocked and running at 91 degrees thanks.
> 
> /End rant


It's cheaper yes, but it's not cheap! 

I'm also not just going by the Max Tech videos - lots of actual user feedback on Macrumors forums as well.

Throttling: the MacBook Pros throttle the CPU and GPU down from the top clock speed because they get hot, and the Studio with it's big fan and heatsink assembly... does the same! Even though it doesn't get anywhere near as hot! 

I'm not saying it's bad - it's a *good *machine. I'm not sure it's a *great *machine. 

Who knows, maybe Apple will address these issues in a software update. After all, they could have stuck it in a Mac Mini chassis if they're not going to ramp up the speed compared with the laptop models.

But as I said, I also want to see reports from users on this forum, as there aren't as many musos on Macrumors.

Wayne


----------



## Jett Hitt

davidson said:


> Well it runs a hell of a lot cooler than the max laptop and costs 40% less, so there's that.
> 
> Channels like Max Tech referenced above create a dozen videos a week, constantly trying to out-drama the previous one with their OTT titles, purely for views. Yeah it was cool he stripped a studio down but again, just for views.
> 
> Last week they had a video on why you should avoid the max studio and buy the laptop. Thats it, like it was fact. They completely ignored the two *huge* benefits I made above.
> 
> Also, the word throttling is getting thrown around left right and centre on the net. I say it's just over-engineered. I don't want my CPU overclocked and running at 91 degrees thanks.
> 
> /End rant


I watched that video, and he had a pretty good argument for some people. The laptop seems to provide the same power while providing a screen, a mouse, a keyboard, speakers, and a webcam. And you're fully mobile. If you don't already own these items, the cost is fairly comparable, and you get mobility.

My point in posting the above video was that while in theory, the Ultra should be double the power of the Max, it is not. But the price is double, and that's what you have to pay to get the option of 64 additional GB of RAM. The demonstrations that I have seen suggest that the Max is plenty powerful enough for our needs, and thus we wind up shelling out $2200 more for an extra 64GB and misallocated power that we don't need.


----------



## Jett Hitt

And here is the same guy with some really good news for Logic users.


----------



## davidson

wayne_rowley said:


> It's cheaper yes, but it's not cheap!
> 
> I'm also not just going by the Max Tech videos - lots of actual user feedback on Macrumors forums as well.
> 
> Throttling: the MacBook Pros throttle the CPU and GPU down from the top clock speed because they get hot, and the Studio with it's big fan and heatsink assembly... does the same! Even though it doesn't get anywhere near as hot!
> 
> I'm not saying it's bad - it's a *good *machine. I'm not sure it's a *great *machine.
> 
> Who knows, maybe Apple will address these issues in a software update. After all, they could have stuck it in a Mac Mini chassis if they're not going to ramp up the speed compared with the laptop models.
> 
> But as I said, I also want to see reports from users on this forum, as there aren't as many musos on Macrumors.
> 
> Wayne


I wasn't having a go at you, just that Max Tech get's right on my nerves 

I'm pretty sure it'll be a great machine. If the max laptop is considered great, I can't see how the studio isn't as great or greater for the reasons I stated. Yes, you cant take it on a bus or sit on a log in the park with it, but unless you're a hipster who does all his writing in starbucks the studio should be fantastic!


----------



## Jett Hitt

davidson said:


> I wasn't having a go at you, just that Max Tech get's right on my nerves


He definitely gets on my nerves. So does Rene Ritchie. I get so tired of endless blathering on the edge of orgasm.


----------



## BassClef

So many Youtubers wringing their hands... none saying the Ultra is a bad machine, just that it does not scale as they hoped over the Max. It simply comes down to value.

I have an Ultra on order with 128GB ram and 2TB ssd. Although it may not scale (over the Max) as much as presumed, it has WITHOUT QUESTION superior performance in many areas. I do not NEED this machine now, but there is no telling how/when my future needs will develop OR how/when future software will take better advantage of the Ultra's power. I am retiring an 8 year old iMac, so projecting the Ultra forward for 8 years... the additional $2000 is a very easy $20.83 per month upgrade!


----------



## seclusion3

1375812-free-gpu-powered-fir-convolution-reverb-early-access-plugin.html
Early days but coming to Mac soon, this might use GPU in the future


----------



## wayne_rowley

davidson said:


> I wasn't having a go at you, just that Max Tech get's right on my nerves
> 
> I'm pretty sure it'll be a great machine. If the max laptop is considered great, I can't see how the studio isn't as great or greater for the reasons I stated. Yes, you cant take it on a bus or sit on a log in the park with it, but unless you're a hipster who does all his writing in starbucks the studio should be fantastic!


Don't worry - not at all offended. 

It's tricky for me as I'm a hobbyist and can't spend a massive amount on a DAW computer. All of my Mac DAWs have been upgradable in some way (storage, memory or both), including my current 2018 Mini. My next one, if it's a Mac, won't be so I need to a) ensure I get value for money and b) be confident that the machine will last a good while without costing the earth. 

I see a lot of potential in AS machines, but issues like the throttling, bluetooth dropouts and fan noise put me off *when put up against how much they cost*.

I still keep wondering about a PC, but I really don't want to migrate away from Logic.

So I'll keep an eye on reviews and reports and watch this space!

Wayne


----------



## AndyP

The question I ask myself when it comes to the M1 Max or Ultra is how the machines behave with RAM.
For example, if I compare it to my iMac with 128 GB, is a Max with 64 GB able to compensate, or is the comparison with the Ultra with 128 GB more correct and fair?

I am therefore very interested to hear from users who use large templates and memory hungry libraries that need a lot of RAM. EW OPUS for example, or many Cinestrings legatos, or BBCPro with lots of mic positions.

Is a Max with 64 GB still sufficient, or is it better to use an Ultra with 128 GB? I'm actually less worried about the pure CPU performance of the Max.

Therefore, I am very curious about the reports.


----------



## samphony

I’m also confused why apple decided against user accessibility whereas with the MacBooks they will provide manuals and parts so users can repair these themselves if needed.


----------



## samphony

Jett Hitt said:


> And here is the same guy with some really good news for Logic users.



348 tracks on a synthetic benchmark is very impressive. Thats great news for anyone who ordered the ultra.


----------



## Jett Hitt

samphony said:


> 348 tracks on a synthetic benchmark is very impressive. Thats great news for anyone who ordered the ultra.


Yes indeed it is good news at least for Logic users. It seems Logic has been optimized to work with the Ultra, whereas Final Cut Pro has not. So who knows what this means for Cubase and Studio One?


----------



## MusiquedeReve

My MacBook Pro 16" with the M1 Max came in a couple of days ago and I have been busy setting up all my VSTs

HOOPUS installed perfectly
VSL Synchron Power Drums installed perfectly
NI Kontakt and libraries installed perfectly

But...

Spitfire Audio is still not working - the plugin opens in Logic but no instruments appear

The SA App won't allow me to "repair" to show the new location - keep getting a message it is an incorrect file path - ughhhhhhhh

I have been in contact with SA support and they have attempted to help but, so far, no luck in getting it to work even after they told me they reset all the libraries (which, according to the SA App, is not the case)

Oh well, guess I will go back to my current works in progress and switch all the instruments over to HOOPUS until this is figured out - who knows, it might even be a happy accident and I will stick with HOOPUS on those projects


----------



## Soundbed

samphony said:


> 348 tracks on a synthetic benchmark is very impressive. Thats great news for anyone who ordered the ultra.



These "tracks" are not orchestral VI "tracks".

They were using synths for those tests AFAICT.

And they even mentioned, because the tracks were duplicated, any samples / wav sources used were redundantly loaded from the same place(s) in RAM.

To get into VI comparisons we still need to talk voice counts, total RAM used by the sampler in question, maybe even how efficiently the sampler utilizes RAM, plus pre-load buffer sizes, and even whether or not we start using a Swap file... etc. etc.


----------



## Jett Hitt

Soundbed said:


> These "tracks" are not orchestral VI "tracks".
> 
> They were using synths for those tests AFAICT.
> 
> And they even mentioned, because the tracks were duplicated, any samples / wav sources used were redundantly loaded from the same place(s) in RAM.
> 
> To get into VI comparisons we still need to talk voice counts, total RAM used by the sampler in question, maybe even how efficiently the sampler utilizes RAM, plus pre-load buffer sizes, and even whether or not we start using a Swap file... etc. etc.


I think the point is that Logic is taking advantage of the Ultra which other programs are not, i.e. Final Cut Pro.


----------



## Soundbed

Jett Hitt said:


> I think the point is that Logic is taking advantage of the Ultra which other programs are not, i.e. Final Cut Pro.


Then I'm only responding to @samphony ... I'll remove you from my reply above.


----------



## Jett Hitt

Soundbed said:


> Then I'm only responding to @samphony ... I'll remove you from my reply above.


I completely agree with you, but I only posted that video just to show that Logic was using the Ultra. It is amazing that we can't get a video of someone loading up something like the Berlin Mains or SSO and demonstrating power as we would use it in real life. I have never even seen such a video for the M1 MacBook Pro Max. It is pretty frustrating. Hopefully, as soon as the VI-C community starts to get their hands on the Mac Studio, that will change.


----------



## ssnowe

I've been using my Mac Studio Max since last Friday and really like it (typing this on it now). This thing has run silent since the day I got it and has easily handled anything I've thrown at it. The only issue I've had with it is it restarted itself on two diffferent occasions and I think that may be related to the Thunderbolt dock that is attached to it.


----------



## Soundbed

Jett Hitt said:


> I completely agree with you, but I only posted that video just to show that Logic was using the Ultra. It is amazing that we can't get a video of someone loading up something like the Berlin Mains or SSO and demonstrating power as we would use it in real life. I have never even seen such a video for the M1 MacBook Pro Max. It is pretty frustrating. Hopefully, as soon as the VI-C community starts to get their hands on the Mac Studio, that will change.


UPS updated my delivery date.

Previously, it was 7pm tonight (three and a half hours from now!) ...

Now, it's changed to "The delivery date will be provided as soon as possible."


----------



## Nimrod7

Soundbed said:


> Previously, it was 7pm tonight (three and a half hours from now!) ...
> 
> Now, it's changed to "The delivery date will be provided as soon as possible."


UPS Driver,


----------



## rnb_2

Jett Hitt said:


> I completely agree with you, but I only posted that video just to show that Logic was using the Ultra. It is amazing that we can't get a video of someone loading up something like the Berlin Mains or SSO and demonstrating power as we would use it in real life. I have never even seen such a video for the M1 MacBook Pro Max. It is pretty frustrating. Hopefully, as soon as the VI-C community starts to get their hands on the Mac Studio, that will change.


I've been kind of amazed that, 18 months in, there are still very few quality Youtube videos that answer the burning questions that come up on this board daily about Apple Silicon Macs (@Soundbed did some of the most informative that I've seen with the original M1). It seems like you can find a Youtube video to explain just about anything, so why not this? 

The only conclusion I could come to was this: Youtube is, not surprisingly, overflowing with people who care deeply about video and computers (and other equipment) that make video production easier/faster. There are probably (at least) thousands of people on Youtube with the knowledge to pull off a decent demo of a new computer for the video market - they have existing projects to compare render times, production pipelines, effects performance, etc, and have all of the experience necessary to speak directly and knowledgeably to that audience. Most importantly, producing video is literally what they do every day, so making a video doesn't actually take time away from what pays the bills.

Orchestral VIs are a very specialized area, and the skillset necessary to be both a decent composer and a skilled video maker is (apparently) rare enough that anybody who needs a high end Mac for composing sees the time needed to make a decent video as a money-loser compared to what they bought the high end Mac for, even if they have the video skills to pull it off.

We should all be pulling for @Soundbed's UPS driver to come through ASAP, is what I'm saying.


----------



## Vik

rnb_2 said:


> Orchestral VIs are a very specialized area, and the skillset necessary to be both a decent composer and a skilled video maker is (apparently) rare enough that anybody who needs a high end Mac for composing sees the time needed to make a decent video as a money-loser compared to what they bought the high end Mac for, even if they have the video skills to pull it off.


We don't even need video documentation – anyone who has a project based on unique, real life like VI tracks could open it on their old machine and their new Apple Silicon Mac, and take two screen shots_ or simply tell us how these projects compare_ (in terms of performance) on the two Macs.

Edit: even simpler, record a legato G major scale, starting from the lowermost G on violin 1, tempo 120, buffer setting 64 – using eg. CSS or another popular library. Repeat the same scale downwards. Now, duplicate that region 11 times, and transpose each of them up a semitone, so you end up with 12 regions playing a G major scale up/down on 12 different tracks. Loop all of them. 

Repeat the same thing for violin 2, viola, cello and bass – all starting frm their lowermost note. 

Now you have 60 benchmark tracks. 

You could of course repeat this with another library, another mic position, another articulation and do on, but even with only these 60 tracks the CPU meters know something important about the performance of that computer.


----------



## Nimrod7

I feel that generating a benchmark based on Sample Libraries might be challenging due to the fact that future versions of a (commercial) sample engine might get optimised and it will break the comparisons with historical benchmarks. Compatibility is not warrantied also due to OS updates which are used by the latests Macs. 

It might be actually a nice project for someone to sit down (I would love to) and build a simple sample engine for the purpose of benchmarking similar to what Cinebench does for 3D.


----------



## rnb_2

Vik said:


> We don't even need vodeo documentation – anyone who has a project based on unique, real life like VI tracks could open it on their old machine and their new Apple Silicon Mac, and take two screen shots_ or simply tell us how these projecs compare_ (in terms of performance) on the two Macs.


The thing is, even there, there would likely be big questions that still need to be answered, or it's not broadly useful. There are so many different combinations of VIs, effects, and DAW, not to mention which parts of each person's setup are still running in Rosetta - I fear that the simpler the comparison, the less likely it is that anyone would see it as definitive.


----------



## davidson

ssnowe said:


> I've been using my Mac Studio Max since last Friday and really like it (typing this on it now). This thing has run silent since the day I got it and has easily handled anything I've thrown at it. The only issue I've had with it is it restarted itself on two diffferent occasions and I think that may be related to the Thunderbolt dock that is attached to it.


Erm, you've had it less than a week and its already rebooted twice?!? Are you not alarmed? I'm alarmed. Is anyone else alarmed?


----------



## molemac

Was close to ordering the M1 MAX BUT given the current delivery time for ordering an M1 Max with 64gb ram is now July in the UK would it be wise to wait and see what the M2 release is. I am currently on a 128gb ram trash can which is getting a little slow on load times other than that it does all I need. Doing less orchestral stuff these days so 64 gb should be fine. Nearly 10 years in I am eager to experience this new speed. Can’t bring myself to get a laptop though.


----------



## Jett Hitt

rnb_2 said:


> We should all be pulling for @Soundbed's UPS driver to come through ASAP, is what I'm saying.


It was @Soundbed's video that convinced me this was a viable, indeed attractive, path forward. I was tempted by the M1 MacBook Pro Max when it came out, but I decided to hold out for the iMac. Then I made up my mind to buy the Mac Mini Pro on March 8 when the Mac Studio was anounced. I would have pounced immediately, but the option of the Ultra gave me pause. So I lost a day on my order.

I wonder if UPS is being more than a little optimistic about delivery dates? Mine left Shanghai 22:25 local time and is predicted to arrive here by 19:00 Friday. Doesn't seem likely.


----------



## Vik

Nimrod7 said:


> I feel that generating a benchmark based on Sample Libraries might be challenging due to the fact that future versions of a (commercial) sample engine might get optimised and it will break the comparisons with historical benchmarks.


There will always be future versions, but that's not a reason to NOT figure out how these libraries perform now.


----------



## Vik

rnb_2 said:


> The thing is, even there, there would likely be big questions that still need to be answered, or it's not broadly useful. There are so many different combinations of VIs, effects, and DAW, not to mention which parts of each person's setup are still running in Rosetta.


IMO it's extremely useful, as long as those involved use the same settings. Things done with eg. Logic can only be compared with other results using Logic, Rosetta needs to be avoided of course, and no additional effects should be used.



rnb_2 said:


> I fear that the simpler the comparison, the less likely it is that anyone would see it as definitive.


This isn't about something definitive, but something preliminary.


----------



## Virtuoso

Taking the Mac Studio Ultra results from that video, I just did some comparative Blender 3.1 benchmarking with my machines here (all Macs on Monterey 12.3). Interesting results:-

*Blender Classroom Scene - CPU*
PC AMD 5950x - 3:30
Mac Studio M1 Ultra - 3:50
2019 Mac Pro 16 core - 4:22
2021 MacBook Pro M1 Max - 7:35
Mac Studio M1 Max - 8:55

*Blender Classroom Scene - GPU*
PC RTX 3090 - 0:14
Mac Studio M1 Ultra - 1:06
2019 Mac Pro AMD Radeon Pro Vega II - 1:28
2021 MacBook Pro M1 Max - 2:03
Mac Studio M1 Max - 2:06


----------



## gordinho

The proof that a max with 64gb is enough for most people (and I suspect most people just have 32gb) is the lack of noise that they are unhappy with their macs for composing.

At this point it's clear that an ultra with 128gb is a nice machine for edge case composers that will just get the machine and move on with their life, not spend time doing experiments for a forum.


----------



## rnb_2

Virtuoso said:


> Taking the Mac Studio Ultra results from that video, I just did some comparative Blender 3.1 benchmarking with my machines here (all Macs on Monterey 12.3). Interesting results:-
> 
> *Blender Classroom Scene - CPU*
> PC AMD 5950x - 3:30
> Mac Studio M1 Ultra - 3:50
> 2019 Mac Pro 16 core - 4:22
> 2021 MacBook Pro M1 Max - 7:35
> Mac Studio M1 Max - 8:55
> 
> *Blender Classroom Scene - GPU*
> PC RTX 3090 - 0:14
> Mac Studio M1 Ultra - 1:06
> 2019 Mac Pro AMD Radeon Pro Vega II - 1:28
> 2021 MacBook Pro M1 Max - 2:03
> Mac Studio M1 Max - 2:06


I know I read somewhere that you could use Metal to render in Blender with something that Apple contributed recently - did you have this for your tests?


----------



## Virtuoso

rnb_2 said:


> I know I read somewhere that you could use Metal to render in Blender with something that Apple contributed recently - did you have this for your tests?


Yes - this is why you need to be on Blender 3.1 with Monterey 12.3. All benchmarks were with Metal GPU acceleration. I also tested CPU+GPU, but the rendering times were either very close or, in a few cases, actually slightly longer.


----------



## rnb_2

Virtuoso said:


> Yes - this is why you need to be on Blender 3.1 with Monterey 12.3. All benchmarks were with Metal GPU acceleration. I also tested CPU+GPU, but the rendering times were either very close or, in a few cases, actually slightly longer.


Can you tell how tightly the renderer and the capabilities of the 3090 are tied together? That thing is a beast (and the Ti will be even faster, but we are talking $1500-2000 graphics cards that pull 350-450 watts by themselves). Going from their numbers, my M1 Pro would probably be around 3:10 for a GPU render - for someone who started dabbling in 3D back in the Lightwave 1.0 days on an Amiga 2000, that doesn't sound too bad!

Edit - just remembered: even though Blender will use the Metal renderer in 3.1, Blender itself is still Intel-only, right? Is the Metal renderer M1-native somehow?


----------



## Jett Hitt

rnb_2 said:


> Can you tell how tightly the renderer and the capabilities of the 3090 are tied together? That thing is a beast (and the Ti will be even faster, but we are talking $1500-2000 graphics cards that pull 350-450 watts by themselves). Going from their numbers, my M1 Pro would probably be around 3:10 for a GPU render - for someone who started dabbling in 3D back in the Lightwave 1.0 days on an Amiga 2000, that doesn't sound too bad!
> 
> Edit - just remembered: even though Blender will use the Metal renderer in 3.1, Blender itself is still Intel-only, right? Is the Metal renderer M1-native somehow?


I have repeatedly seen videos of the Ultra struggling with Blender. I don't know anything about it personally, but clearly something isn't quite right there. In fairness to the Ultra, the only thing that is a fair trial of its capabilities is software that has been optimized for it. That's tough, though, because even Final Cut Pro isn't there yet.


----------



## mscp

shropshirelad said:


> Looking good for tomorrow - it's been on quite a journey!


your boy has seen the world. lol.


----------



## mscp

50 pages for a f... computer that will be replaced in less than a decade? very evangelic.. I'm typing from an M1 Max, so expect it to shut it down in protest any min


----------



## colony nofi

Vik said:


> We don't even need video documentation – anyone who has a project based on unique, real life like VI tracks could open it on their old machine and their new Apple Silicon Mac, and take two screen shots_ or simply tell us how these projects compare_ (in terms of performance) on the two Macs.
> 
> Edit: even simpler, record a legato G major scale, starting from the lowermost G on violin 1, tempo 120, buffer setting 64 – using eg. CSS or another popular library. Repeat the same scale downwards. Now, duplicate that region 11 times, and transpose each of them up a semitone, so you end up with 12 regions playing a G major scale up/down on 12 different tracks. Loop all of them.
> 
> Repeat the same thing for violin 2, viola, cello and bass – all starting frm their lowermost note.
> 
> Now you have 60 benchmark tracks.
> 
> You could of course repeat this with another library, another mic position, another articulation and do on, but even with only these 60 tracks the CPU meters know something important about the performance of that computer.


This is kinda similar (ish) to our internal benchmarks, although we use our own purpose made sample libraries in order to stress things really hard. And do a lot of repeated notes (for round robin testing) among other things.

But perhaps I can setup some sort of test here. I am unfortunately time poor, but have 2 different m1 based systems and another 2 on the way. 

I'll set something up. Once N12 is out I'll use that as Nuendo is our primary system. If its worth it I'll share the session, but it will rely on others using the same libs I choose. 

Good testing usually takes a few weeks to figure out the how (and exactly WHAT) one is testing, and to figure out all your mistakes. But I have enough that we've done to kinda fly by the seat of my pants and try get something kidna-sorta-maybe useful in terms of data.

Lets see. Possibly this weekend.


----------



## rnb_2

Virtuoso said:


> Taking the Mac Studio Ultra results from that video, I just did some comparative Blender 3.1 benchmarking with my machines here (all Macs on Monterey 12.3). Interesting results:-
> 
> *Blender Classroom Scene - CPU*
> PC AMD 5950x - 3:30
> Mac Studio M1 Ultra - 3:50
> 2019 Mac Pro 16 core - 4:22
> 2021 MacBook Pro M1 Max - 7:35
> Mac Studio M1 Max - 8:55
> 
> *Blender Classroom Scene - GPU*
> PC RTX 3090 - 0:14
> Mac Studio M1 Ultra - 1:06
> 2019 Mac Pro AMD Radeon Pro Vega II - 1:28
> 2021 MacBook Pro M1 Max - 2:03
> Mac Studio M1 Max - 2:06


Are those M1 Max GPU results 24-core or 32-core? I downloaded Classroom and rendered it on my M1 Pro, and got ~3:42 (it was, predictably, going to be around 9 minutes on CPU, but I stopped it about ⅓ through). While the GPU render is much faster, it doesn't produce the fun "let's light up all of the CPU cores in iStat" effect.


----------



## Virtuoso

rnb_2 said:


> even though Blender will use the Metal renderer in 3.1, Blender itself is still Intel-only, right? Is the Metal renderer M1-native somehow?


Blender 3.0 was Apple Silicon native - 3.1 added Metal support. NB You need to be on Monterey 12.3 to use this. There's also an experimental Metal RT feature in 3.1 but it makes no difference to the speeds.



rnb_2 said:


> Are those M1 Max GPU results 24-core or 32-core?


24 core - they benchmarked the base model plus the 48 and 64 core Ultras.


----------



## rnb_2

Virtuoso said:


> Blender 3.0 was Apple Silicon native - 3.1 added Metal support. NB You need to be on Monterey 12.3 to use this. There's also an experimental Metal RT feature in 3.1 but it makes no difference to the speeds.
> 
> 
> 24 core - they benchmarked the base model plus the 48 and 64 core Ultras.


Silly me - Blender's site defaults to downloading the Intel version, and the button below says "Windows, Linux, and other versions". It's not exactly obvious that the Apple Silicon version is included in "other versions" there. So, scratch that 3:42 GPU render, since that was via Rosetta. I have a backup running right now, so I'll re-run the benchmark in the morning.


----------



## Spid

The Mac Studio Ultra with 128GB could make a very nice (and expensive) VEP server for people like me that use a MacBook Pro Max; I would love to see VEP for M1 and how it would run on the Studio Ultra. I’m very curious about it….


----------



## Marsen




----------



## aeliron

BassClef said:


> So many Youtubers wringing their hands... none saying the Ultra is a bad machine, just that it does not scale as they hoped over the Max. It simply comes down to value.
> 
> I have an Ultra on order with 128GB ram and 2TB ssd. Although it may not scale (over the Max) as much as presumed, it has WITHOUT QUESTION superior performance in many areas. I do not NEED this machine now, but there is no telling how/when my future needs will develop OR how/when future software will take better advantage of the Ultra's power. I am retiring an 8 year old iMac, so projecting the Ultra forward for 8 years... the additional $2000 is a very easy $20.83 per month upgrade!


What’s important is not what those YouTubers say.

What’s important is an endless string of clickbait videos 😆


----------



## aeliron

samphony said:


> 348 tracks on a synthetic benchmark is very impressive. Thats great news for anyone who ordered the ultra.


Pah. Not even 350.


----------



## aeliron

MorphineNoir said:


> My MacBook Pro 16" with the M1 Max came in a couple of days ago and I have been busy setting up all my VSTs
> 
> HOOPUS installed perfectly
> VSL Synchron Power Drums installed perfectly
> NI Kontakt and libraries installed perfectly
> 
> But...
> 
> Spitfire Audio is still not working - the plugin opens in Logic but no instruments appear
> 
> The SA App won't allow me to "repair" to show the new location - keep getting a message it is an incorrect file path - ughhhhhhhh
> 
> I have been in contact with SA support and they have attempted to help but, so far, no luck in getting it to work even after they told me they reset all the libraries (which, according to the SA App, is not the case)
> 
> Oh well, guess I will go back to my current works in progress and switch all the instruments over to HOOPUS until this is figured out - who knows, it might even be a happy accident and I will stick with HOOPUS on those projects


How about try this in Rosetta first, then switching back to native if that works?


----------



## naturalahvi

Got Studio Max yesterday and installed all from scratch. Install took over 13h through the night and first job done today after few hours of sleep. I was very surprised everything worked much better than I expected. Logic, Cubase 12 and maybe hundred plugins run without any problems. Obviously it is not time for me to go native but time will tell. I placed machine temporally on table next to screens for install. Definitely fans are annoying and there is high pitch whining sound. My studio is very quiet and I have machineroom where this whiner gonna be buried. Very happy to get rid of my 5 years old hack even it is still very stable an quite fast. Maybe its new life will be Windows 10 or 11 VSL slave.


----------



## KEM

My Mac Studio is now out for delivery!!


----------



## aeliron

Marsen said:


>



I think the Studio saw his sweating emoji. Part of the new AS AI.


----------



## jneebz

KEM said:


> My Mac Studio is now out for delivery!!


And…..breeeeeeeeeathe…..
Then report on that fan noise!


----------



## KEM

jneebz said:


> And…..breeeeeeeeeathe…..
> Then report on that fan noise!



Oh don’t worry I’ll be providing all that stuff!!


----------



## davidson

Thank god for overly-loud prodigy gigs then - I cant hear a thing over 13k!


----------



## Jett Hitt

As I sit and listen in my studio, the 5K iMac sitting in front of me makes as much noise as anything. But I can also hear the frig running on the other side of the room. There's a pileated woodpecker outside the window who seems to be pissed off at the world. Somewhere in the distance, I can hear a cur barking. Ambient noise is just a part of existence. I can't imagine the Mac Studio will be particularly intrusive.


----------



## KEM

IT IS HERE!!!


----------



## MusiquedeReve

KEM said:


> IT IS HERE!!!



We need a full report


----------



## Zedcars

KEM said:


> IT IS HERE!!!


Big f***er ain’t it!


----------



## Jett Hitt

KEM said:


> IT IS HERE!!!


WTH? You've had 30 minutes. Where's our demo?


----------



## KEM

MorphineNoir said:


> We need a full report





Jett Hitt said:


> WTH? You've had 30 minutes. Where's our demo?



Calm down ladies, give me about a week to actually make sure all my stuff works  



Zedcars said:


> Big f***er ain’t it!



Yeah it’s got some girth


----------



## davidson

Am I the only one who thinks they're actually pretty fugly?


----------



## Jett Hitt

KEM said:


> Calm down ladies, give me about a week to actually make sure all my stuff works


Just because I sometimes put on pumps, lipstick, and thong and dance around my studio to Donna Summer does not give you cause to call me a lady.


----------



## Zedcars

davidson said:


> Am I the only one who thinks they're actually pretty fugly?


Big n Beautiful!


----------



## KEM

Should I deactivate all of my iLok licenses before I use migration assistant?


----------



## LinusW

KEM said:


> IT IS HERE!!!


Me too! 30 min before your post  #synchronized


----------



## LinusW

KEM said:


> Should I deactivate all of my iLok licenses before I use migration assistant?


Yeah. I'll not use Migration assistant. It's time for a fresh start.


----------



## rnb_2

davidson said:


> Am I the only one who thinks they're actually pretty fugly?


Not at all - most of the opinions I've heard are happy that it's very much a "function over form" machine, and a big change from Apple over the last decade. That said, many are also wishing for some kind of design flourish that isn't there.


----------



## rnb_2

KEM said:


> Should I deactivate all of my iLok licenses before I use migration assistant?


Are your licenses on a dongle, cloud, or machine? If they're on a dongle (or cloud, I think), no need to deactivate, but you'll have to deactivate machine licenses at some point. Before is probably better in that case, so the licenses are available in iLok as soon as you fire up the new machine.


----------



## KEM

rnb_2 said:


> Are your licenses on a dongle, cloud, or machine? If they're on a dongle (or cloud, I think), no need to deactivate, but you'll have to deactivate machine licenses at some point. Before is probably better in that case, so the licenses are available in iLok as soon as you fire up the new machine.



I have some that are cloud and some that are machine, so I’ll keep the cloud ones up but I’ll deactivate all of the machine ones


----------



## aeliron

KEM said:


> IT IS HERE!!!


And it plays the piano!!!


----------



## KEM

LinusW said:


> Yeah. I'll not use Migration assistant. It's time for a fresh start.



That’s too much work for me lol I’m taking the easy way out


----------



## IFM

I won't be worried about the fan noise since it will be in a machine closet but I also have a LV1 mixing system for the synths and between the Waves server and the stagebox, unless those are off I will always have a small fan noise happening.


----------



## Soundbed

rnb_2 said:


> We should all be pulling for @Soundbed's UPS driver to come through ASAP, is what I'm saying.


Now UPS says Monday night for mine. 


Vik said:


> We don't even need video documentation – anyone who has a project based on unique, real life like VI tracks could open it on their old machine and their new Apple Silicon Mac, and take two screen shots_ or simply tell us how these projects compare_ (in terms of performance) on the two Macs.
> 
> Edit: even simpler, record a legato G major scale, starting from the lowermost G on violin 1, tempo 120, buffer setting 64 – using eg. CSS or another popular library. Repeat the same scale downwards. Now, duplicate that region 11 times, and transpose each of them up a semitone, so you end up with 12 regions playing a G major scale up/down on 12 different tracks. Loop all of them.
> 
> Repeat the same thing for violin 2, viola, cello and bass – all starting frm their lowermost note.
> 
> Now you have 60 benchmark tracks.
> 
> You could of course repeat this with another library, another mic position, another articulation and do on, but even with only these 60 tracks the CPU meters know something important about the performance of that computer.





colony nofi said:


> Good testing usually takes a few weeks to figure out the how (and exactly WHAT) one is testing, and to figure out all your mistakes.


Yeah there’s so many variables to consider to make a decent “benchmark” type of test. I’ll probably make several “mistakes” trying to test but post them anyway … I call myself a recovering perfectionist 😂


----------



## rnb_2

Soundbed said:


> Now UPS says Monday night for mine.
> 
> 
> Yeah there’s so many variables to consider to make a decent “benchmark” type of test. I’ll probably make several “mistakes” trying to test but post them anyway … I call myself a recovering perfectionist 😂


From "by 7pm tonight" to "after the weekend"? That's just cruel, especially with several others receiving theirs over the last couple days.


----------



## Vik

How we use these libraries/how they are created/how we test them has more in common with the term 'evolution' than 'mistakes' IMO.


----------



## rnb_2

rnb_2 said:


> The limiting factor for the RAM is the capacity of the largest RAM chips that Apple can source to fit their package requirements - there is a physical size limit for the package, since the idea is to have all the RAM very close to the SOC. Because of the way that RAM is manufactured, density typically goes up by a factor of two in a process shrink, so the first part of your idea is certainly possible if a RAM manufacturer can economically produce chips at twice the current density. However, with how the M-series chips are manufactured, everything would go up by only a factor of two at each level, as an Ultra has twice the interconnects of a Max, which has twice the interconnects of a Pro, *because they all start as the same thing on the wafer*.
> 
> The latest conjecture that I've heard about how the manufacturing works is that everything is a potential M1 Ultra - they're arranged on the silicon wafer in interconnected pairs of M1 Max packages, and every pair that passes becomes an Ultra (if any GPU cores fail, it becomes a 48-core GPU Ultra). Any pairs that don't pass are split, and all that then pass become M1 Max (if any GPU cores fail here, they become 24-core GPU Max). Any chips that fail to pass at this point become M1 Pros, and any that subsequently fail GPU tests become 10-core/14-core Pros; any that fail CPU tests become 8-core/14-core Pros.
> 
> We really need to see what they do with the Mac Pro to have a better idea of how things will be structured - if they allow user-upgradable RAM there, then we'll know that some things that currently appear to be set-in-stone with Apple Silicon aren't. If they don't allow user-upgradable RAM, then RAM will be dependent on what can be included on package and how many packages can be supported in a single system - this is where the claim that Ultra is the final chip in the M1 family comes in, as that makes the rumored 4xMax chip seem unlikely (at best, unless Apple wants to play fast-and-loose with things). With all the detail Apple put into explaining why their processor interconnect system was better than having two discrete CPU packages, it also seems unlikely that they would then go that route on the Mac Pro.





rnb_2 said:


> I should note that the above manufacturing process is still conjecture, and seems to assume a large number of failures on each silicon wafer in order to provide enough higher volume chips for the Macs that need them. I also believe that manufacturing has not followed this plan since the M1 Pro/Max were introduced last fall - I believe that those were almost certainly manufactured in a similar fashion for some period, but without the Ultra as the ultimate goal (every chip started as a potential 10-core/32-core Max instead).
> 
> Apple has likely been working with TSMC for the intervening months on the process for getting the Ultra produced, and it's possible that there are still enough failures just in the interconnect structure between the individual Max chips to disqualify most of each wafer at the first test.


Resurrecting this to note that the need to have Ultras matched up on the die is likely not true - the interconnects are likely manufactured separately, so any two M1 Max chips that pass all CPU cores and at least 24 GPU cores can be matched up after the fact to create an Ultra. This is good news, since it makes the process more economical (you don't have to hit the lottery to get a functional Ultra) and scalable.

Beyond that, still not certain that everything starts as a Max and becomes a Pro if a certain number of CPU or GPU cores don't pass - I'll keep an eye out for clarification on that. Given the circular silicon wafer, I imagine that putting Pro chips around the edges (since they're ~½ the size of a Max) could give higher yields.


----------



## Jett Hitt

rnb_2 said:


> From "by 7pm tonight" to "after the weekend"? That's just cruel, especially with several others receiving theirs over the last couple days.


The delivery schedule is rather confounding. Apple says April 12. UPS has updated to say "Tomorrow by 16:00". But according to UPS's website, my package has never left Shanghai. You could go crazy watching the tracking. *nods to Donna Summer, who is sitting on the couch admiring his pumps*


----------



## KEM

This migration assistant is gonna take forever, I probably won’t be able to use it until tomorrow or Saturday


----------



## Nimrod7

KEM said:


> This migration assistant is gonna take forever, I probably won’t be able to use it until tomorrow or Saturday


Use ethernet instead of WiFi for the transfer if you don't do already: 





Use Ethernet to connect two Mac computers


On your Mac, use an Ethernet cable to connect two computers and share files or play network games.



support.apple.com





I have a 10Gps fiber connection ready to go, otherwise it will take ages.


----------



## KEM

Nimrod7 said:


> Use ethernet instead of WiFi for the transfer if you don't do already:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Use Ethernet to connect two Mac computers
> 
> 
> On your Mac, use an Ethernet cable to connect two computers and share files or play network games.
> 
> 
> 
> support.apple.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have a 10Gps fiber connection ready to go, otherwise it will take ages.



Too late at this point, just gotta suck it up and deal with it, but it’ll be worth it


----------



## Zedcars

KEM said:


> Too late at this point, just gotta suck it up and deal with it, but it’ll be worth it


I would plug an Ethernet cable between the two anyway even though it’s started. Theoretically it should switch over to the faster connection. It certainly shouldn’t bugger up the transfer as they can handle simultaneous connections.


----------



## KEM

Zedcars said:


> I would plug an Ethernet cable between the two anyway even though it’s started. Theoretically it should switch over to the faster connection. It certainly shouldn’t bugger up the transfer as they can handle simultaneous connections.



I guess I could give it a shot, wifi is running at about 14 mb/s so it’s taking forever


----------



## Zedcars

KEM said:


> I guess I could give it a shot, wifi is running at about 14 mb/s so it’s taking forever


I think you can tell it to prefer Ethernet over WiFi in the Network System Preferences. There’s a “Set Service Order” option. You can drag Ethernet to the top. Worth a go, otherwise it could take a month of Sundays.


----------



## davidson

Don't forget to report back when the migration fails and your studio blows up


----------



## KEM

davidson said:


> Don't forget to report back when the migration fails and your studio blows up



Don’t jinx it or I swear to god!!


----------



## KEM

Plugged in a Thunderbolt cable and it’s cut the transfer time to under 2 hours now


----------



## Soundbed

davidson said:


> Don't forget to report back when the migration fails and your studio blows up


Windows user? /sarcasm. mostly.


----------



## colony nofi

Soundbed said:


> Now UPS says Monday night for mine.
> 
> 
> Yeah there’s so many variables to consider to make a decent “benchmark” type of test. I’ll probably make several “mistakes” trying to test but post them anyway … I call myself a recovering perfectionist 😂


True words!
Mine surprisingly just had apple take the cash over night - although its still saying april 27th as earliest delivery. My macbook pro arrived about 10 days after payment. (This is aussie delivery times) - ordered this studio on 9 March.
Look forward to reading everyone's experiences before I get mine. Any benchmarking will be on our m1 minis and loaded M1 MBP

I will most definitely be installing completely from scratch. No chance for using migration assistant in a production environment. Too many variables at play. But at least I can make a single image, and then copy to other machines if/when we upgrade old intel macs.

My MBP Ill be leaving rosetta based, but the studio (which will be composition / SPAT/Atmos immersive mixing computer) I'm going to have a red hot go using m1 native only. I can use another mac pro if a project needs things that are not yet M1 native. We're not in a desperate need to upgrade situation.

Spat beta for m1 native worked great on a mini (!!!) - outperforming an 11gen intel i9 rig. So I have high hopes. I have not seen if spat is out of beta for m1 native or not... but I'm guessing it has. More to research.

Oh and I heard a friend in london might have a hack already to reduce the speed of the fans...


----------



## KEM

Everything seems to be working perfectly fine so far, I opened up a project that used to have my system completely maxed out even with a 2048 buffer size and everything frozen, now that same project is running at a little under 50% on cpu with a 256 buffer size and everything enabled in real time!! Very happy with this performance


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

The delivery time is now 3-1/2 months.

At this point I don't see any reason to get in line. I doubt they'll be in short supply when they arrive, any more than the M1 Max laptops are now.


----------



## Zedcars

Nick Batzdorf said:


> The delivery time is now 3-1/2 months.
> 
> At this point I don't see any reason to get in line. I doubt they'll be in short supply when they arrive, any more than the M1 Max laptops are now.


Keep your eyes peeled for refurbished Mac Studios from Apple directly, and also eBay. There may be a few bargains to be had over the coming months.


----------



## MusiquedeReve

KEM said:


> Everything seems to be working perfectly fine so far, I opened up a project that used to have my system completely maxed out even with a 2048 buffer size and everything frozen, now that same project is running at a little under 50% on cpu with a 256 buffer size and everything enabled in real time!! Very happy with this performance


Excellent!



Nick Batzdorf said:


> The delivery time is now 3-1/2 months.
> 
> At this point I don't see any reason to get in line. I doubt they'll be in short supply when they arrive, any more than the M1 Max laptops are now.


I was lucky last week when the Apple Store near me had the MacBook Pro 16" in stock with the configuration I was looking for


----------



## Zedcars

KEM said:


> Everything seems to be working perfectly fine so far, I opened up a project that used to have my system completely maxed out even with a 2048 buffer size and everything frozen, now that same project is running at a little under 50% on cpu with a 256 buffer size and everything enabled in real time!! Very happy with this performance


That’s fantastic. So glad the transfer worked smoothly. Looking forward to testing mine this weekend. I’m really hoping I haven’t got the one lemon from the factory. It would be just my luck!


----------



## KEM

I should also add that I’m fairly certain that that level of performance was with Cubase running in Rosetta as well, all my Soundtoys plugins showed up and from what I understand if Cubase was running natively they would’ve been blocked, so assuming that’s correct the performance should be even better if everything is native!!


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Zedcars said:


> Keep your eyes peeled for refurbished Mac Studios from Apple directly, and also eBay. There may be a few bargains to be had over the coming months.


Could be, but these machines are likely to be in demand for a while. I've seen ads for discounted M1 laptops, and the difference in price isn't all that much.


----------



## samphony

KEM said:


> I should also add that I’m fairly certain that that level of performance was with Cubase running in Rosetta as well, all my Soundtoys plugins showed up and from what I understand if Cubase was running natively they would’ve been blocked, so assuming that’s correct the performance should be even better if everything is native!!


I’m running the Soundtoys beta natively. Crash free.


----------



## colony nofi

samphony said:


> I’m running the Soundtoys beta natively. Crash free.


Soundtoys have now released the betas - but these don't include VST3 native which is needed for C12 to run natively.

They are working on it. 

The latest news from Sountoys - upon their release of those betas.


> VST 3 Info
> 
> Steinberg recently released Cubase 12 with native Apple silicon support. The Apple silicon native version of Cubase no longer supports VST 2 plug-ins, and will only run VST 3 plug-ins. We are currently finalizing the VST 3 versions of our plug-ins and expect to have them available for public beta very soon. In the meantime, you can still use Soundtoys plug-ins with Cubase on an M1 machine. Simply make sure to run Cubase using Rosetta 2. See this support article for instructions on enabling Rosetta 2.


Linky to info about the beta being released








Apple Silicon Compatibility - Soundtoys


We are excited to announce the release of Soundtoys version 5.3.7 with native Apple Silicon support for Audio Units and VST 2 formats.



www.soundtoys.com





But yeah. No VST3 support.... yet.


----------



## davidson

Soundbed said:


> Windows user? /sarcasm. mostly.


Hell no, I'd sooner use a pen and paper than windows!


----------



## Nimrod7

Nick Batzdorf said:


> The delivery time is now 3-1/2 months.
> 
> At this point I don't see any reason to get in line. I doubt they'll be in short supply when they arrive, any more than the M1 Max laptops are now.


If you wanna go with a standard config, it's highly likely to find a unit in the Apple Stores or the retailers.


----------



## Guavadude

@KEM
Congrats! What config did you get?

Maybe everyone should add specs to their signatures for a little while during this stress test phase.


----------



## gsilbers

KEM said:


> I should also add that I’m fairly certain that that level of performance was with Cubase running in Rosetta as well, all my Soundtoys plugins showed up and from what I understand if Cubase was running natively they would’ve been blocked, so assuming that’s correct the performance should be even better if everything is native!!



Not sure if you already said this but how’s the fan noise ?


----------



## Jett Hitt

Based on what I have read, Shanghai went into lockdown on the morning my Mac Studio shipped. UPS still says it will be delivered by 16:00 today.






They also say that it hasn't left Shanghai.






So I am guessing that some of us are in for a long wait. I didn't quite understand the delay announcement on this Shipping Progress report because they said "On the Way" after mentioning the delay. I think I now understand this to mean we are waiting for this package to be rescheduled, and the computer still assumes that this will be delievered within its normal window.


----------



## KEM

gsilbers said:


> Not sure if you already said this but how’s the fan noise ?



Haven’t heard anything whatsoever


----------



## KEM

Guavadude said:


> @KEM
> Congrats! What config did you get?
> 
> Maybe everyone should add specs to their signatures for a little while during this stress test phase.



Base M1 Ultra with 4tb of storage


----------



## mscp

KEM said:


> Haven’t heard anything whatsoever


Fans ramp up after sustained 65% cpu load. Thing's loud!


----------



## KEM

mscp said:


> Fans ramp up after sustained 65% cpu load. Thing's loud!



If I hear them I will be sure to post an update!!


----------



## Zedcars

I can’t hear any fan noise on my unit either. I’ll let you know if anything changes once I’ve plugged it in.


----------



## mscp

Zedcars said:


> I can’t hear any fan noise on my unit either. I’ll let you know if anything changes once I’ve plugged it in.


I have the M1 Max. It's silent, until it actually does what's supposed to do...work! haha. If the fans are not ramping up, the user is not taking the computer seriously. 

One of my sessions brings the CPU to a 70% load (all real-time, latency compensation off)...and the fan does come on. Thing's loud man.


----------



## Virtuoso

KEM said:


> I should also add that I’m fairly certain that that level of performance was with Cubase running in Rosetta as well, all my Soundtoys plugins showed up and from what I understand if Cubase was running natively they would’ve been blocked, so assuming that’s correct the performance should be even better if everything is native!!


If it's Cubase 12, by default it runs in Rosetta mode. To enable Native mode, find the Cubase icon and click command-I. Make sure Rosetta is unticked - NB there is a bug where it may already be unticked but will still run in Rosetta mode, so you have to toggle it on and off again.

Soundtoys actually released their M1 compatible plugins last week, so if your plugins disappear, just install v5.3.7 and you will have them again.


----------



## ridgero

Do you change the Kontakt Buffer size with the new M1 chips?

I have an MBP 16 witg M1 Max/64GB RAM

I found some recommendations to increase the Kontakt Buffer size.


----------



## KEM

Virtuoso said:


> If it's Cubase 12, by default it runs in Rosetta mode. To enable Native mode, find the Cubase icon and click command-I. Make sure Rosetta is unticked - NB there is a bug where it may already be unticked but will still run in Rosetta mode, so you have to toggle it on and off again.
> 
> Soundtoys actually released their M1 compatible plugins last week, so if your plugins disappear, just install v5.3.7 and you will have them again.



Interesting, so it was in Rosetta then, which means that my cpu usage will be even lower eventually!! Awesome

And I have the Apple Silicon native Soundtoys but the vst3 version is only available through the latest beta, so I haven’t downloaded that but once they’re fully released I’ll update them


----------



## rnb_2

ridgero said:


> Do you change the Kontakt Buffer size with the new M1 chips?
> 
> I have an MBP 16 witg M1 Max/64GB RAM
> 
> I found some recommendations to increase the Kontakt Buffer size.


You should be able to *decrease* the buffer to use less RAM.


----------



## jbuhler

Jett Hitt said:


> Based on what I have read, Shanghai went into lockdown on the morning my Mac Studio shipped. UPS still says it will be delivered by 16:00 today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They also say that it hasn't left Shanghai.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I am guessing that some of us are in for a long wait. I didn't quite understand the delay announcement on this Shipping Progress report because they said "On the Way" after mentioning the delay. I think I now understand this to mean we are waiting for this package to be rescheduled, and the computer still assumes that this will be delievered within its normal window.


It sounds like Apple contracted your delivery with Schrödinger's Shipping.


----------



## Soundbed

Guavadude said:


> @KEM
> Congrats! What config did you get?
> 
> Maybe everyone should add specs to their signatures for a little while during this stress test phase.


Signatures are off globally, I believe.



ridgero said:


> Do you change the Kontakt Buffer size with the new M1 chips?
> 
> I have an MBP 16 witg M1 Max/64GB RAM
> 
> I found some recommendations to increase the Kontakt Buffer size.


Decrease preload buffer size, not increase.


----------



## Jett Hitt

The UPS computer caught up to reality on the ground.






There was a lockdown in Shenzhen that lasted about a week in mid-March, and now we have the same in Shanghai. Apparently, all Apple shipments are now delayed until the lockdown ends. There seems to be no indication of how long this will last. I guess we'll all have to live vicariously through @KEM.


----------



## KEM

Jett Hitt said:


> The UPS computer caught up to reality on the ground.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There was a lockdown in Shenzhen that lasted about a week in mid-March, and now we have the same in Shanghai. Apparently, all Apple shipments are now delayed until the lockdown ends. There seems to be no indication of how long this will last. I guess we'll all have to live vicariously through @KEM.



Don’t worry, I’ll be doing some work with this thing


----------



## samphony

gsilbers said:


> Not sure if you already said this but how’s the fan noise ?


Sorry but according to so many responses since the Mac Studio announcement there seems to be a lot of „fan“ noise. 

Sorry couldn’t resist


----------



## HCMarkus

Mine made it to the USA... "Cleared import customs" and supposed to arrive here Monday!


----------



## gbar

You can't upgrade 'em, so if you go with the lowest end CPU 128GB RAM and 8TB storage, you're looking at 7 grand.

They really nail you on storage and RAM. That's where you see them doing the typical Apple thing,

It's tempting, but 4TB of storage is cutting it too close, so unless you intend to use some of those TB4 ports for storage, man 7 grand. That puts me back on the fence and thinking about a new PC build.


----------



## Daniel James

Marsen said:


>



I used to work with one of those old 2008 cheese grater mac pros and there was a time where the only place it could go was elevated and in the room. Must have been at least the volume of a jet engine. I think I can survive this 😂


----------



## rnb_2

gbar said:


> You can't upgrade 'em, so if you go with the lowest end CPU 128GB RAM and 8TB storage, you're looking at 7 grand.
> 
> They really nail you on storage and RAM. That's where you see them doing the typical Apple thing,
> 
> It's tempting, but 4TB of storage is cutting it too close, so unless you intend to use some of those TB4 ports for storage, man 7 grand. That puts me back on the fence and thinking about a new PC build.


I don't really see the need for going all-internal on the storage with a desktop - it's more a convenience than a necessity (laptops are a slightly different story, but only because it's easier to move around if you don't have to worry about an external drive). With sample players, your performance gains going from external Thunderbolt (or even USB) SSDs to internal storage are marginal for the cost. Cut back to a 2TB internal and store your samples on externals, and the price isn't nearly so daunting.


----------



## davidson

So mine was supposed to arrive today some time between 10am and 3pm. Waited in all day, nothing. Kept checking the UPS site and the delivery time didn't change. Now its changed to this and it looks like it might still be in China? Honestly, UPS are absolutely fkn sh!te.


----------



## davidson

rnb_2 said:


> I don't really see the need for going all-internal on the storage with a desktop - it's more a convenience than a necessity (laptops are a slightly different story, but only because it's easier to move around if you don't have to worry about an external drive). With sample players, your performance gains going from external Thunderbolt (or even USB) SSDs to internal storage are marginal for the cost. Cut back to a 2TB internal and store your samples on externals, and the price isn't nearly so daunting.


My reason for going massive internal (before changing my order and sticking with external) was that, at least on the m1 mini, externals constantly disconnect when using the TB ports.

If I have the same issue with the studio....I dont know what I'll do but it wont be pretty.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

davidson said:


> My reason for going massive internal (before changing my order and sticking with external) was that, at least on the m1 mini, externals constantly disconnect when using the TB ports.
> 
> If I have the same issue with the studio....I dont know what I'll do but it wont be pretty.


These are USB ports, not just Thunderbolt, so I'd be surprised if that were an issue.

Actually, something is wrong if they're disconnecting anyway. I wonder what's going on.


----------



## Jett Hitt

davidson said:


> So mine was supposed to arrive today some time between 10am and 3pm. Waited in all day, nothing. Kept checking the UPS site and the delivery time didn't change. Now its changed to this and it looks like it might still be in China? Honestly, UPS are absolutely fkn sh!te.


Yep, it's in China. Though it isn't a direct correlation, this article appeared on CNN today, and it is probably a fairly good snapshot of the current conditions in Shanghai as a whole.









Port delays are getting worse in Shanghai. That's very bad news for global supply chains


China's strict lockdown in Shanghai is heaping even more pressure on global supply chains.




edition.cnn.com


----------



## Daniel James

BTW for those of you who get your new machine soon. If you have one to mind, could you open up a particularly big project you remember causing your machine to chug in the past and give us a general estimate of how much extra headroom you feel you have.

I think that's probably one of the only tests I can think of for composers. So many plugins now force an export time of at least realtime+ so CPU or GPU isn't going to improve anything significant there. Not to many composers are solely synth focused and some synths do nothing while others will burn a machine just by playing more than one note so its hard to judge unless you can remember how many instances of a particular one it used to cause issues. You could load as many sample libraries as possible but even then some will cause more pressure than others so it would be hard to know generally if you are getting much more from it.... There are SO MANY variables when it comes to what a good composing machine boils down to that I think the only way to really judge is to pull up your own older projects that were heavy and compare them. As that's the kind of project you write you will know if the machine helps your approach much or not.

Can't wait to get mine. Imma put that thing through its paces 😂


----------



## alcorey

Daniel James said:


> There are SO MANY variables when it comes to what a good composing machine boils down to that I think the only way to really judge is to pull up your own older projects that were heavy and compare them. As that's the kind of project you write you will know if the machine helps your approach much or not.
> 
> Can't wait to get mine. Imma put that thing through its paces 😂


If your machine knows where it is headed it'll probably hide in the warehouse in Shanghai


----------



## Gaffable

Daniel James said:


> BTW for those of you who get your new machine soon. If you have one to mind, could you open up a particularly big project you remember causing your machine to chug in the past and give us a general estimate of how much extra headroom you feel you have.



Here's one report, by @KEM, who has a 64GB Mac Studio Ultra with a 4TB internal SSD:



KEM said:


> Everything seems to be working perfectly fine so far, I opened up a project that used to have my system completely maxed out even with a 2048 buffer size and everything frozen, now that same project is running at a little under 50% on cpu with a 256 buffer size and everything enabled in real time!! Very happy with this performance


----------



## KEM

Gaffable said:


> Here's one report, by @KEM, who has a 64GB Mac Studio Ultra with a 4TB internal SSD:



And those numbers are from running Cubase in Rosetta, if I ran it natively the performance would be even better. And the project in question is about 15 minutes of music and has at least 100 tracks in its entirety, and it’s at 32bit float/48k @Daniel James


----------



## mscp

The biggest issue I'm having with the M1 Max is how buggy VSL's VEP and Synchron are in a typical Logic session. I'm talking about hangs/crashes/ and voodoo s... like arming a track other than the one you want (sometimes). As soon as I remove all things VSL, Logic behaves like it should. Oh, and core number 8 seems to be way too high compared to all other cores. I am not using the full 10 cores though - just the 8 high performance ones.

The machine is more than capable of running my 700 tracks-ish template at moderate cpu load and it's a marginal but still improvement over a Mac Pro 16-core.


----------



## NoamL

What's the best way to set up an internal-SSD sample library folder?

I just plan to migrate my "Orchestral Samples" folder straight to the Documents folder of my user account on the new Mac Studio. Is there a better method?


----------



## nas

mscp said:


> The biggest issue I'm having with the M1 Max is how buggy VSL's VEP and Synchron are in a typical Logic session. I'm talking about hangs/crashes/ and voodoo s... like arming a track other than the one you want (sometimes). As soon as I remove all things VSL, Logic behaves like it should. Oh, and core number 8 seems to be way too high compared to all other cores. I am not using the full 10 cores though - just the 8 high performance ones.
> 
> The machine is more than capable of running my 700 tracks-ish template at moderate cpu load and it's a marginal but still improvement over a Mac Pro 16-core.


And this is with 64gb of RAM?


----------



## mscp

nas said:


> And this is with 64gb of RAM?


yes.


----------



## Gaffable

NoamL said:


> What's the best way to set up an internal-SSD sample library folder?
> 
> I just plan to migrate my "Orchestral Samples" folder straight to the Documents folder of my user account on the new Mac Studio. Is there a better method?


An alternative approach would be to create a volume on your SSD for your orchestral samples, as outlined by @HCMarkus in post #648 of this discussion thread.

This would allow you to make a bootable clone of your SSD and exclude the orchestral samples from the clone, in order to speed up the cloning process.

As I understand it, macOS from Catalina onwards prevents incremental backups to bootable clones. If you want to create a bootable clone then you have to make a fresh clone of the SSD each time you backup. Making a fresh clone takes several hours. If your orchestral samples are included in the cloning process then the backup process could be unreasonably long.


----------



## jcrosby

KEM said:


> And those numbers are from running Cubase in Rosetta, if I ran it natively the performance would be even better. And the project in question is about 15 minutes of music and has at least 100 tracks in its entirety, and it’s at 32bit float/48k @Daniel James


Hey KEM, so did you opt for Migration Assistant? If so what machine/OS did you migrate from?


----------



## KEM

jcrosby said:


> Hey KEM, so did you opt for Migration Assistant? If so what machine/OS did you migrate from?



Yep!! I have a mid 2015 MacBook Pro, it was running Big Sur but I updated to Monterey right before I migrated to make sure the transition would be to/from the OS and wouldn’t mess anything up, I also ran CleanMyMac right before I migrated to make sure any junk was gone

So far I haven’t had a single issue and I highly recommend using Migration Assistant, no complaints from me!!


----------



## jcrosby

KEM said:


> Yep!! I have a mid 2015 MacBook Pro, it was running Big Sur but I updated to Monterey right before I migrated to make sure the transition would be to/from the OS and wouldn’t mess anything up, I also ran CleanMyMac right before I migrated to make sure any junk was gone
> 
> So far I haven’t had a single issue and I highly recommend using Migration Assistant, no complaints from me!!


Great to hear!! This would be the preferred way for me to go as well, so really glad to hear that migrating to AS from Intel isn't a disaster!


----------



## KEM

jcrosby said:


> Great to hear!! This would be the preferred way for me to go as well, so really glad to hear that migrating to AS from Intel isn't a disaster!



Not at all!! Make sure to update everything you know has a native version before you migrate, that way when you get on the new machine everything will be ready to go, and anything that isn’t native will be run in Rosetta anyways so no harm done

I think everyone is just blowing the whole “clean install” thing out of proportion, Apple Silicon Mac’s have Rosetta for a reason, we all use stuff that’s still Intel based so having some of that transfer over during Migration Assistant won’t be any different than downloading it off a product page, I think everyone should save themselves the time and effort and just use Migration Assistant


----------



## rnb_2

davidson said:


> My reason for going massive internal (before changing my order and sticking with external) was that, at least on the m1 mini, externals constantly disconnect when using the TB ports.
> 
> If I have the same issue with the studio....I dont know what I'll do but it wont be pretty.


That's definitely not normal - I had both an M1 mini and an M1 MacBook Air connected via Thunderbolt to a LOT of stuff, both directly and through docks (OWC Thunderbolt 3 Dock to Akitio dual PCI enclosure to Thunderbolt RAID to USB-C NVMe enclosure, plus a couple USB hubs connected to the dock), and I didn't have any issues with drives ejecting spontaneously. I know that's probably not a great comfort, but I doubt that you'll see a recurrence of the problem with your Studio.


----------



## Daniel James

Gaffable said:


> Here's one report, by @KEM, who has a 64GB Mac Studio Ultra with a 4TB internal SSD:


----------



## Jett Hitt

I got a delivery update: April 5, 10:00-12:00. But I am pretty sure that this is just UPS's AI readjusting to their normal timeframe. The package is still in Shanghai. So don't get too excited when UPS gives you a new date.


----------



## Gaffable

At the 7:45 mark in this review of the Apple Studio Display, Quinn Nelson disassembles the monitor to show what it looks like inside.


----------



## davidson

Jett Hitt said:


> I got a delivery update: April 5, 10:00-12:00. But I am pretty sure that this is just UPS's AI readjusting to their normal timeframe. The package is still in Shanghai. So don't get too excited when UPS gives you a new date.


I think you're right, I got the exact same update today. Are you in the UK too?


----------



## davidson

@Nick Batzdorf @rnb_2 I'm not alone, there are literally hundreds of threads about the issue on the net, for example https://discussions.apple.com/thread/252346675

I'm guessing its a certain TB port + controller chipset combination that causes the issues, but I certainly couldnt get to the bottom of it after dozens of enclosure and cable trials. USB A port is fine so thats what Ive been using on the mini. Anyway, fingers crossed for the studio.


----------



## Minsky

gsilbers said:


> USA doesnt include tax. eah state is different.


Yes, I’ve lived in the States. I’ve also worked for Apple in the UK. The prices (regardless of tax) are higher in the UK than the US. When you add in tax it’s often even higher.


----------



## dts_marin

I suspect one factor for the increased price, at least for the EU, is the extra year of mandatory warranty. I'm sure Apple doesn't like that at all.


----------



## gsilbers

dts_marin said:


> I suspect one factor for the increased price, at least for the EU, is the extra year of mandatory warranty. I'm sure Apple doesn't like that at all.



I also notice the other way around.
Eve audio speakers and focal speakers seem more expensive in the USA.
some sort of duties for specific products even though it all comes from China. 
Or layers of duties that add up.
And of course Europe has been keen on getting the most out of these huge tech companies w too much power and anticompetitive spirits.


----------



## dts_marin

gsilbers said:


> And of course Europe has been keen on getting the most out of these huge tech companies w too much power and anticompetitive spirits.


Not a fan of the EU but the tech dystopia has gone too far. US tech companies and the ideologies they push have a much greater influence on european citizens than the EU itself.

I don't feel bad for Apple or any other FANG-tier company. They are anticompetitive down to their rotten core.


----------



## gsilbers

dts_marin said:


> Not a fan of the EU but the tech dystopia has gone too far. US tech companies and the ideologies they push have a much greater influence on european citizens than the EU itself.
> 
> I don't feel bad for Apple or any other FANG-tier company. They are anticompetitive down to their rotten core.


Yep. I think there was a time where these “disruptive” companies were doing something positive for society and getting rid of the “old ways” and now it’s become obvious they’re just tech bros screwing everyone just to get money.
Now we are all part of their “platforms” , a thumbnail for our services to see who can race to the bottom and 100 years of labor rights went out the window along with the benefits of globalization. Uber and Spotify might be the best examples here.
We do have some cool things but now IMO it’s time to reign in these tech bros and have it work for the majority instead of a few connected in Silicon Valley.
I think EU is ahead of the game here. The us has still a very nasty habit of “lobbyist” in congress. A Congress who do not really make the laws… they just copy paste what the lobby guys gives them and adjust a few things.
It might be nice to have a nice 3rd options that’s not windows or mac. And now google’s doing the chrome os might be good but we all know it’s these huge companies that use their dominance and money to steer away competition.

Edit: phew… what a turn. Can we talk about the fan noise on the m1 pro? Still getting conflicting info


----------



## Jett Hitt

davidson said:


> I think you're right, I got the exact same update today. Are you in the UK too?


No, I'm in the US, and since posting, my shipment has been downgraded back to:


----------



## Zedcars

Jett Hitt said:


> No, I'm in the US, and since posting, my shipment has been downgraded back to:


Wow, that’s frustrating af. I hope you get it soon.


----------



## Jett Hitt

Zedcars said:


> Wow, that’s frustrating af. I hope you get it soon.


Yes, yes it is, though honestly, my old 5,1 is working just fine. I run 120 head of bison, and it is calving season, so my time is pretty limited anyway. I scurry from pasture to pasture checking UPS updates on my phone all the while exclaiming, "You, bastards, you bastards!," knowing fully well that I wouldn't have time to set the damned thing up even if it arrived.

Life was so much simpler and more pleasant before I had a computer in my pocket.


----------



## gsilbers

Gaffable said:


> At the 7:45 mark in this review of the Apple Studio Display, Quinn Nelson disassembles the monitor to show what it looks like inside.




Ok, first … how the fuk these reviewers have so much money?!

Second. I don’t get the overall thing with this display.
It seems there sooo many more options at better prices.
He mentioned that in the review.
I was thinking soenthing about color accuracy and video centric stuff would have been better but he and others said meh.

The odd thing here is the internal components. It’s almost as if you could run iOS there in standalone mode. (It has the same chips) But at the same time it’s not a touch screen.
Sooooo… maybe it’s a future where you can run mac and iOS together somehow? Apple has been trying to integrate devices somehow.
So maybe something like AUv3 in logic would be running out of this display if it’s a iPhone only app?

Or maybe it’s for a future product to connect your iPhone to this display and have iOS be a mirror monitor and you still do everything like typing swiping etc on your old iPhone?


----------



## LatinXCombo

gsilbers said:


> Ok, first … how the fuk these reviewers have so much money?!


Well, Quinn has one million followers and this video alone has 106k views and it hasn't even been 24 hours yet, and between that and the in-video product endorsements he gives, this video probably covered the cost of the monitor by itself already.

The calculus of "should I risk burning $2k by taking apart this monitor" looks different when it's a return-on-investment thing, you know? 



> The odd thing here is the internal components. It’s almost as if you could run iOS there in standalone mode. (It has the same chips) But at the same time it’s not a touch screen.
> Sooooo… maybe it’s a future where you can run mac and iOS together somehow? Apple has been trying to integrate devices somehow.



The one thing noone's really commented on is that for companies that love Apple products for their employees, this has the potential to be a Zoom/Teams all-in-one unit.


----------



## davidson

Jett Hitt said:


> No, I'm in the US, and since posting, my shipment has been downgraded back to:


Mine too FFS. I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this point. Oh, they also changed the tracking location from Shenzhen to Shanghai earlier. So, it set off 5 days ago and has made its way even further east. Fantastic.


----------



## mscp

davidson said:


> So mine was supposed to arrive today some time between 10am and 3pm. Waited in all day, nothing. Kept checking the UPS site and the delivery time didn't change. Now its changed to this and it looks like it might still be in China? Honestly, UPS are absolutely fkn sh!te.


----------



## HCMarkus

mscp said:


>


Similar experience here, but current updates have revealed my Studio is on its way to the West Coast, USA with arrival Monday! Too bad I'm in the middle of a project; then again, I may see if a "quick" transfer/install of vitals might allow me to continue with it on the new machine...


----------



## KEM

HCMarkus said:


> Similar experience here, but current updates have revealed my Studio is on its way to the West Coast, USA with arrival Monday! Too bad I'm in the middle of a project; then again, I may see if a "quick" transfer/install of vitals might allow me to continue with it on the new machine...



Use Migration Assistant and you’ll be fine


----------



## gsilbers

LatinXCombo said:


> Well, Quinn has one million followers and this video alone has 106k views and it hasn't even been 24 hours yet, and between that and the in-video product endorsements he gives, this video probably covered the cost of the monitor by itself already.
> 
> The calculus of "should I risk burning $2k by taking apart this monitor" looks different when it's a return-on-investment thing, you know?
> 
> 
> 
> The one thing noone's really commented on is that for companies that love Apple products for their employees, this has the potential to be a Zoom/Teams all-in-one unit.



But, doesnt many displays already come with a webcam , or can it be simply install above it? Is there soemthing specific for this display that might be different (maybe in the future via firmware etc)?


----------



## Jett Hitt

davidson said:


> Mine too FFS. I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this point. Oh, they also changed the tracking location from Shenzhen to Shanghai earlier. So, it set off 5 days ago and has made its way even further east. Fantastic.


If you’re in the UK, it’s gonna come over the North Pole anyway. 

The good news is that things are moving if they transferred it to Shanghai. That at least means things are allowed in. Mine has been rescanned, so there must be at least a skeletal crew of six year old children working in there between grammar lessons.


----------



## Soundbed

just noticed Exponential reverbs are now closer to being compatible … due to an Apple fix?!









Exponential Audio Plugins Now Working On Monterey | Production Expert


We’ve been receiving reports that Exponential Audio reverb plugins are now working on macOS Monterey macOS 12.3.




www.pro-tools-expert.com


----------



## davidson

Jett Hitt said:


> If you’re in the UK, it’s gonna come over the North Pole anyway.
> 
> The good news is that things are moving if they transferred it to Shanghai. That at least means things are allowed in. Mine has been rescanned, so there must be at least a skeletal crew of six year old children working in there between grammar lessons.


Ok, let's see who receives theirs first. Game on!


----------



## SGordB

Gaffable said:


> As I understand it, macOS from Catalina onwards prevents incremental backups to bootable clones. If you want to create a bootable clone then you have make a fresh clone of the SSD each time you backup. Making a fresh clone takes several hours. If your orchestral samples are included in the cloning process then the backup process could be unreasonably long.


No problem here continuing to incrementally ("Smart Update") clone my iMac's boot drive using SuperDuper since I updated to Catalina. I believe they (ShirtPocket) straightened out any issues they encountered in Big Sur and Monterey as well -- sure hope so, because Monterey is where the action will be in a few days when my Studio makes it here from Shanghai (fingers crossed).


----------



## HCMarkus

KEM said:


> Use Migration Assistant and you’ll be fine


Moving from a Mac Pro 5,1 and Mojave... I'll be copying my sample data SSDs which represent the bulk of the data to move, but not so sure I want to Migrate drivers and apps. I run MOTU 828ES and MOTU has recommended against Migration Assistant for its drivers, not to mention I'll be moving from Intel to Apple Silicon for so many now-Native apps and plugins. I plan on using the new Mac Studio for many years. This seems to be a situation I'd prefer to wade into gingerly. 

But I am very happy Migration Assist worked for you! I've used it successfully in the past, too, just maybe not this time around. As my dear old dad, may he rest in peace, once told me: "Discretion is often the better part of valor."


----------



## Zedcars

SGordB said:


> No problem here continuing to incrementally ("Smart Update") clone my iMac's boot drive using SuperDuper since I updated to Catalina. I believe they (ShirtPocket) straightened out any issues they encountered in Big Sur and Monterey as well -- sure hope so, because Monterey is where the action will be in a few days when my Studio makes it here from Shanghai (fingers crossed).


I read that as “a few _years_ when my Studio makes it here from Shanghai”!


----------



## rnb_2

gsilbers said:


> Ok, first … how the fuk these reviewers have so much money?!
> 
> Second. I don’t get the overall thing with this display.
> It seems there sooo many more options at better prices.
> He mentioned that in the review.
> I was thinking soenthing about color accuracy and video centric stuff would have been better but he and others said meh.
> 
> The odd thing here is the internal components. It’s almost as if you could run iOS there in standalone mode. (It has the same chips) But at the same time it’s not a touch screen.
> Sooooo… maybe it’s a future where you can run mac and iOS together somehow? Apple has been trying to integrate devices somehow.
> So maybe something like AUv3 in logic would be running out of this display if it’s a iPhone only app?
> 
> Or maybe it’s for a future product to connect your iPhone to this display and have iOS be a mirror monitor and you still do everything like typing swiping etc on your old iPhone?


You're probably overthinking things. The display runs iOS because iOS has the camera tech to handle the Center Stage webcam, so the display actually handles that and just sends the video to the connected Mac. This way, they don't have to write the Center Stage camera software for the Mac, and it will work with many Mac models back to 2016.

It's unlikely to connect to an iPhone. It's listed as compatible with only certain models of the iPad Pro and iPad Air (not even the new iPad mini, probably due to needing more than 5Gbps USB-C). I don't think there is any way to push enough data through a Lightning port to drive the display, just on a hardware level, so future iPhone compatibility would depend on moving away from Lightning, which Apple has thus far shown no interest in doing.


----------



## BassClef

Studio Ultra ordered announcement day... Apple projected arrival is May 11-25. Status just changed from "Processing" to "Preparing to Ship". I hope that AT LEAST means it had been manufactured!


----------



## SGordB

Zedcars said:


> I read that as “a few _years_ when my Studio makes it here from Shanghai”!


By which time *everything* will be AS native! So take your time, UPS.


----------



## Luka

BassClef said:


> Studio Ultra ordered announcement day... Apple projected arrival is May 11-15. Status just changed from "Processing" to "Preparing to Ship". I hope that AT LEAST means it had been manufactured!


Wait, are you saying your delivery date is May 11-15 but it's already at the preparing to ship stage!?


----------



## gsilbers

rnb_2 said:


> You're probably overthinking things. The display runs iOS because iOS has the camera tech to handle the Center Stage webcam, so the display actually handles that and just sends the video to the connected Mac. This way, they don't have to write the Center Stage camera software for the Mac, and it will work with many Mac models back to 2016.
> 
> It's unlikely to connect to an iPhone. It's listed as compatible with only certain models of the iPad Pro and iPad Air (not even the new iPad mini, probably due to needing more than 5Gbps USB-C). I don't think there is any way to push enough data through a Lightning port to drive the display, just on a hardware level, so future iPhone compatibility would depend on moving away from Lightning, which Apple has thus far shown no interest in doing.



ah.. right. yep. to me that center stage cam is just like the plenty of clip on webcams with similar features for like 100 bucks. . So seeing all that tech inside the display i thought it might be for something else. 
The mentioned of advance machine learning for... hmm... a camera tracking you.. dunnoo..seems a little cheesy (theres a better term but i forgot)

Still dont see the appeal of that display but keep seeing so many reviewers spending time on it while also reviewing the mac studio.
I know good displays can cost more than $20k and for youtubers i think there are better options at the 1.5k mark.
Maybe thats why its not getting the best reviews.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

dts_marin said:


> I suspect one factor for the increased price, at least for the EU, is the extra year of mandatory warranty. I'm sure Apple doesn't like that at all



I'm not sure that's the case.

For one, their machines tend to hold up very well. Obviously there are lots of exceptions, but of maybe 25 Macs I've owned there was only one that wasn't all that great - and that was a long time ago, before Steve Jobs returned. And the one I use day in and out is 13 years old.

But the main thing is that standards in general benefit big companies that can afford to adhere to them, especially ones like Apple that sell premium products. Standards tend to make it harder to race to the bottom.


----------



## rnb_2

rnb_2 said:


> You're probably overthinking things. The display runs iOS because iOS has the camera tech to handle the Center Stage webcam, so the display actually handles that and just sends the video to the connected Mac. This way, they don't have to write the Center Stage camera software for the Mac, and it will work with many Mac models back to 2016.
> 
> It's unlikely to connect to an iPhone. It's listed as compatible with only certain models of the iPad Pro and iPad Air (not even the new iPad mini, probably due to needing more than 5Gbps USB-C). I don't think there is any way to push enough data through a Lightning port to drive the display, just on a hardware level, so future iPhone compatibility would depend on moving away from Lightning, which Apple has thus far shown no interest in doing.


Also, the thing that many people here (and elsewhere) don't consider is that, in the wider Apple market, there are a LOT of people who bought 5k iMacs because it was the only way, back in 2014, to get "Retina on the desktop". Because it required a custom display controller (the 5k is effectively two displays, with a custom timing controller to keep them in sync), and wasn't practical to implement over Thunderbolt 2, some even sold "trashcans", foregoing the greater CPU and GPU performance (when it wasn't overheating), to get it. This was particularly the case for iOS developers who, until the 5k iMac, lacked a way to simulate their apps with pixel accuracy on a desktop Mac (iPhone screens went Retina in 2010, and have much higher ppi than even laptop screens). Most of this market strongly prefers not to have an all-in-one, using their display across multiple generations of computer, but technology made that very difficult for a few years.

In 2016, the arrival of Thunderbolt 3 made 5k external displays realistic, but Apple bowed out of the display market, and made a deal with LG to ensure that there were 4k and 5k displays that met Apple's specs, at least on the panel. Unfortunately, the LG Ultra "Fine" line was just that - fine (at best) - once you got past the panel. The first version of the 5k blocked wifi signals, the stand was always flimsy and prone to shaking while you typed, the main circuit board has the USB ports soldered directly to it, so plugging/unplugging eventually causes boards to fail. The 5k Ultrafine wasn't cheap, either - you paid $1299 for a nice panel and "meh" everything else.

Having gotten used to 5k screens, this group doesn't want to go backwards. They only switched to the iMac because it was, for a time, the only way to get the resolution they wanted - the 2018 Mac mini could do it, but was slower (particularly in the GPU) and could be noisy if pushed hard. Some switched to the iMac Pro in 2017, some waited for the 2019 Mac Pro with the Pro Display XDR (which was overkill for developers, but at least it was an upgrade from the iMac, and they could keep the display for years and years). A 4k screen pretending to be 5k (what I have) doesn't work for their purposes, because display scaling loses the pixel-for-pixel accuracy for their iOS app simulations.

The Mac Studio and Studio Display are the first time since 2013 that this large, vocal group of users has had a computer and display combination from Apple that doesn't require them to vastly overspend because the only options are designed around the much higher needs of a different market, or make big compromises somewhere. They don't have to buy a $5k+ iMac Pro or $12k+ Mac Pro + XDR (both really designed for media pros) to get a fast computer for their app builds and a pixel-accurate 5k display for simulation.

Along with this market, there are lots of people with 2014-2015 5k iMacs who are in the market for a new computer - those machines ran particularly hot (frequent fan noise), and are no longer particularly fast, being limited to quad-core CPUs and relatively weak GPUs. The Mac Studio + Studio Display is the clear replacement for them - the display is actually brighter than what they had, but it has the same resolution, includes a better webcam (once they get the bugs out) and decent speakers, and much smaller bezels than the iMac.

Apple bowed out of the display market in 2016 thinking that the market would continue to serve their users well, but that hasn't happened. Dell used to make a 5k 27" display and a nice 4k 24" - both have been discontinued for years; the LG Ultrafines have literally been the only choice for a long time. The PC market has settled at 4k at ever-larger sizes, which is not at all what a lot of these users want, so while many people look at the Studio Display and see it as overpriced and/or under-specced, for a large group of users, it's exactly what they've wanted for years. Given that the only option they've had was already $1300 (and not good), they thought the Apple equivalent (if it ever came) would be at least $2k and go up from there - if they want a height-adjustable stand, it does, but that's still better than the XDR's $1k stand.

I can see how some might see this as a "glass of ice water in Hell" situation, but a large segment of Apple users are nothing if not picky, and this has been a thorn in their side for several years. I don't have any plans to pay that kind of money for a display, but I can understand why many people are very eager to get their hands on one.


----------



## aeliron

rnb_2 said:


> Also, the thing that many people here (and elsewhere) don't seem to grasp is that, in the wider Apple market, there are a LOT of people who bought 5k iMacs because it was the only way, back in 2014, to get "Retina on the desktop". Because it required a custom display controller (the 5k is effectively two displays, with a custom timing controller to keep them in sync), and wasn't practical to implement over Thunderbolt 2, some even sold "trashcans", foregoing the greater CPU and GPU performance (when it wasn't overheating), to get it. This was particularly the case for iOS developers who, until the 5k iMac, lacked a way to simulate their apps with pixel accuracy on a desktop Mac (iPhone screens went Retina in 2010, and have much higher ppi than even laptop screens). Most of this market strongly prefers not to have an all-in-one, using their display across multiple generations of computer, but technology made that very difficult for a few years.
> 
> In 2016, the arrival of Thunderbolt 3 made 5k external displays realistic, but Apple bowed out of the display market, and made a deal with LG to ensure that there were 4k and 5k displays that met Apple's specs, at least on the panel. Unfortunately, the the LG Ultra "Fine" line was just that - fine (at best) - once you got past the panel. The first version of the 5k blocked wifi signals, the stand was always flimsy and prone to shaking while you typed, the main circuit board has the USB ports soldered directly to it, so plugging/unplugging eventually causes boards to fail. The 5k Ultrafine wasn't cheap, either - you paid $1299 for a nice panel and "meh" everything else.
> 
> Having gotten used to 5k screens, this group doesn't want to go backwards. They only switched to the iMac because it was, for a time, the only way to get the resolution they wanted - the 2018 Mac mini could do it, but was slower (particularly in the GPU) and could be noisy if pushed hard. Some switched to the iMac Pro in 2017, some waited for the 2019 Mac Pro with the Pro Display XDR (which was overkill for developers, but at least it was an upgrade from the iMac, and they could keep the display for years and years). A 4k screen pretending to be 5k (what I have) doesn't work for their purposes, because display scaling loses the pixel-for-pixel accuracy for their iOS app simulations.
> 
> The Mac Studio and Studio Display are the first time since 2013 that this large, vocal group of users has had a computer and display combination from Apple that doesn't require them to vastly overspend because the only options are designed around the much higher needs of a different market, or make big compromises somewhere. They don't have to buy a $5k+ iMac Pro or $12k+ Mac Pro + XDR (both really designed for media pros) to get a fast computer for their app builds and a pixel-accurate 5k display for simulation.
> 
> Along with this market, there are lots of people with 2014-2015 5k iMacs who are in the market for a new computer - those machines ran particularly hot (frequent fan noise), and are no longer particularly fast, being limited to quad-core CPUs and relatively weak GPUs. The Mac Studio + Studio Display is the clear replacement for them - the display is actually brighter than what they had, but it has the same resolution, includes a better webcam (once they get the bugs out) and decent speakers, and much smaller bezels than the iMac.
> 
> Apple bowed out of the display market in 2016 thinking that the market would continue to serve their users well, but that hasn't happened. Dell used to make a 5k 27" display and a nice 4k 24" - both have been discontinued for years; the LG Ultrafines have literally been the only choice for a long time. The PC market has settled at 4k at ever-larger sizes, which is not at all what a lot of these users want, so while many people look at the Studio Display and see it as overpriced and/or under-specced, for a large group of users, it's exactly what they've wanted for years. Given that the only option they've had was already $1300 (and not good), they thought the Apple equivalent (if it ever came) would be at least $2k and go up from there - if they want a height-adjustable stand, it does, but that's still better than the XDR's $1k stand.
> 
> I can see how some might see this as a "glass of ice water in Hell" situation, but a large segment of Apple users are nothing if not picky, and this has been a thorn in their side for several years. I don't have any plans to pay that kind of money for a display, but I can understand why many people are very eager to get their hands on one.


Very detailed and informative! It's weird that 5k display situation kind of froze in time.


----------



## BassClef

Luka said:


> Wait, are you saying your delivery date is May 11-15 but it's already at the preparing to ship stage!?


Yes... but what is Apple's definition of "Preparing to Ship" ???


----------



## mscp

NoamL said:


> What's the best way to set up an internal-SSD sample library folder?
> 
> I just plan to migrate my "Orchestral Samples" folder straight to the Documents folder of my user account on the new Mac Studio. Is there a better method?


Create an APFS partition for it, because in the emergency of having to perform an OS clean install, you don't need to reinstall every single library again.


----------



## mscp

Soundbed said:


> just noticed Exponential reverbs are now closer to being compatible … due to an Apple fix?!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exponential Audio Plugins Now Working On Monterey | Production Expert
> 
> 
> We’ve been receiving reports that Exponential Audio reverb plugins are now working on macOS Monterey macOS 12.3.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.pro-tools-expert.com


The article is wrong. R4 and Excalibur do not work in Logic 10.7.3. At least not here it doesn't.


----------



## Jett Hitt

rnb_2 said:


> Also, the thing that many people here (and elsewhere) don't seem to grasp is that, in the wider Apple market, there are a LOT of people who bought 5k iMacs because it was the only way, back in 2014, to get "Retina on the desktop". Because it required a custom display controller (the 5k is effectively two displays, with a custom timing controller to keep them in sync), and wasn't practical to implement over Thunderbolt 2, some even sold "trashcans", foregoing the greater CPU and GPU performance (when it wasn't overheating), to get it. This was particularly the case for iOS developers who, until the 5k iMac, lacked a way to simulate their apps with pixel accuracy on a desktop Mac (iPhone screens went Retina in 2010, and have much higher ppi than even laptop screens). Most of this market strongly prefers not to have an all-in-one, using their display across multiple generations of computer, but technology made that very difficult for a few years.
> 
> In 2016, the arrival of Thunderbolt 3 made 5k external displays realistic, but Apple bowed out of the display market, and made a deal with LG to ensure that there were 4k and 5k displays that met Apple's specs, at least on the panel. Unfortunately, the the LG Ultra "Fine" line was just that - fine (at best) - once you got past the panel. The first version of the 5k blocked wifi signals, the stand was always flimsy and prone to shaking while you typed, the main circuit board has the USB ports soldered directly to it, so plugging/unplugging eventually causes boards to fail. The 5k Ultrafine wasn't cheap, either - you paid $1299 for a nice panel and "meh" everything else.
> 
> Having gotten used to 5k screens, this group doesn't want to go backwards. They only switched to the iMac because it was, for a time, the only way to get the resolution they wanted - the 2018 Mac mini could do it, but was slower (particularly in the GPU) and could be noisy if pushed hard. Some switched to the iMac Pro in 2017, some waited for the 2019 Mac Pro with the Pro Display XDR (which was overkill for developers, but at least it was an upgrade from the iMac, and they could keep the display for years and years). A 4k screen pretending to be 5k (what I have) doesn't work for their purposes, because display scaling loses the pixel-for-pixel accuracy for their iOS app simulations.
> 
> The Mac Studio and Studio Display are the first time since 2013 that this large, vocal group of users has had a computer and display combination from Apple that doesn't require them to vastly overspend because the only options are designed around the much higher needs of a different market, or make big compromises somewhere. They don't have to buy a $5k+ iMac Pro or $12k+ Mac Pro + XDR (both really designed for media pros) to get a fast computer for their app builds and a pixel-accurate 5k display for simulation.
> 
> Along with this market, there are lots of people with 2014-2015 5k iMacs who are in the market for a new computer - those machines ran particularly hot (frequent fan noise), and are no longer particularly fast, being limited to quad-core CPUs and relatively weak GPUs. The Mac Studio + Studio Display is the clear replacement for them - the display is actually brighter than what they had, but it has the same resolution, includes a better webcam (once they get the bugs out) and decent speakers, and much smaller bezels than the iMac.
> 
> Apple bowed out of the display market in 2016 thinking that the market would continue to serve their users well, but that hasn't happened. Dell used to make a 5k 27" display and a nice 4k 24" - both have been discontinued for years; the LG Ultrafines have literally been the only choice for a long time. The PC market has settled at 4k at ever-larger sizes, which is not at all what a lot of these users want, so while many people look at the Studio Display and see it as overpriced and/or under-specced, for a large group of users, it's exactly what they've wanted for years. Given that the only option they've had was already $1300 (and not good), they thought the Apple equivalent (if it ever came) would be at least $2k and go up from there - if they want a height-adjustable stand, it does, but that's still better than the XDR's $1k stand.
> 
> I can see how some might see this as a "glass of ice water in Hell" situation, but a large segment of Apple users are nothing if not picky, and this has been a thorn in their side for several years. I don't have any plans to pay that kind of money for a display, but I can understand why many people are very eager to get their hands on one.


So given that you aren't in the target audience for this display, which one would you buy if you were buying tomorrow?


----------



## Luka

BassClef said:


> Yes... but what is Apple's definition of "Preparing to Ship" ???


That's a good question… I have a Studio Display that is scheduled to arrive April 12-19 but it isn't at the Preparing To Ship stage yet…


----------



## KEM

The Studio Display is very nice, I’m actually looking at it right now since we have it here at Best Buy, but personally I wouldn’t get it, if I had the money I’d get the Pro Display XDR


----------



## Luka

Anyone who already got their Mac Studio can tell us how long before they got it delivered did it change to the "Preparing To Ship" step?


----------



## KEM

Luka said:


> Anyone who already got their Mac Studio can tell us how long before they got it delivered did it change to the "Preparing To Ship" step?



I got mine in the mail 2 days ago, the entire process only took like 5 days


----------



## samphony

i did a test with a friend the other day. She’s working all day in Aftereffects. On her 2013 6core trashcan with the D500 rendering the timeline was stuttering like hell. Exporting took between 20-30min. 

The same project on my m1max 16“ rendered instantly and exported the clip in 00:39 sec the first time and 00:02 seconds the second time. 

Oh and we used the non Apple Silicon version which isn’t even optimized for Rosetta including the maxon red giant complete suite. 

I’m not into motion graphics but I totally understand why she will go for that m1max Mac Studio.


----------



## Soundbed

I wish I'd never checked the UPS site, and simply trusted Apple's initial prediction for delivery.

As such, I've edited the Apple store page.

See below for my edits, highlighted:


----------



## Jett Hitt

This isn't exactly what we're looking for, but here is a video that at least addresses audio a bit:


----------



## rnb_2

aeliron said:


> Very detailed and informative! It's weird that 5k display situation kind of froze in time.


I think this is largely down to bandwidth (anything over 5k hogs a lot of Thunderbolt 3 or 4 bandwidth) and cost, largely because the PC market doesn't want to move past 4k, so there are no economies of scale - 6k is just Apple at this point, and they directed the XDR at HDR and other high end video work to help justify the price. Until GPUs can drive >4k at high frame rates, I think we'll remain stuck at 4k in the larger market.


----------



## Soundbed

Jett Hitt said:


> This isn't exactly what we're looking for, but here is a video that at least addresses audio a bit:



Is Keyscape RAM intensive? I don't have it. (As you mentioned / warned) ... it seems like he was still effectively testing CPU and not really also testing RAM. It was all repetitions of the same instrument ... which is something I learned in my testing as well. In other words duplicating the same 5 (?) Keyscape instances doesn't exactly mean he's pulling new samples from RAM ... they are (potentially) the same samples, depending on RR).


----------



## Jett Hitt

Soundbed said:


> Is Keyscape RAM intensive? I don't have it. (As you mentioned / warned) ... it seems like he was still effectively testing CPU and not really also testing RAM. It was all repetitions of the same instrument ... which is something I learned in my testing as well. In other words duplicating the same 5 (?) Keyscape instances doesn't exactly mean he's pulling new samples from RAM ... they are (potentially) the same samples, depending on RR).


Yeah, I don't understand this demonstration. Once I have loaded Violin 1 in Berlin Strings, for example, I can duplicate that channel umpteen times, and it has little effect. I needed to see 100 instances of 100 different instruments. It is kind of like all these people making these videos don't really understand how Logic works. As several have said, what we need is voice count.

Keeping my fingers crossed that you get your machine soon and can make a video!


----------



## rnb_2

Jett Hitt said:


> So given that you aren't in the target audience for this display, which one would you buy if you were buying tomorrow?


It's not that I'm *not* the target audience - if I was buying a display right now, I'd probably at least consider it - but I spent $1300 on my BenQ SW271 in late 2018, and I expect to get a few more years out of it. It did just fail to meet the factory target deltas on calibration for the first time, but only by the smallest of margins, so I'm not concerned about that yet.

Most people on VI-C appear to want bigger displays than I really need, and don't need ultimate color accuracy (to the extent that I do anything for a living these days, I'm a photographer), so I think most would be best served by whatever 4k or widescreen display fits their needs best. It's mostly a case of finding the best scaling mode to suit your viewing distance and how much you want to fit on screen.

Edit - just looked at the order I placed in 2018 for another purpose, and it turns out that I didn't spend $1300 on my BenQ SW271. It was actually under $1k, but has since been discontinued and replaced by the SW271C, which retails for $1599. Up against that or something like an Eizo ColorEdge, the Studio Display might be tempting, but you would be trading features (wide gamut/HDR, integrated calibration, etc) for higher resolution (5k vs 4k) and Apple integration. BenQ and NEC also have nice IPS displays in the $900-$1k range that would probably be viable options for me, but have features that don't matter if your primary concern is music.


----------



## charlieclouser

Jett Hitt said:


> Yes, yes it is, though honestly, my old 5,1 is working just fine. I run 120 head of bison...


Wait, so you run 120 head of bison on a Mac Pro 5,1?!?!? My fully-loaded Mac Pro 6,1 can only run 82 head of bison, and that's on the largest buffer setting! 

I suspect something's wrong with my Fence Preferences.... what version of PastureOS are you running?


----------



## Virtuoso

charlieclouser said:


> Wait, so you run 120 head of bison on a Mac Pro 5,1?!?!? My fully-loaded Mac Pro 6,1 can only run 82 head of bison, and that's on the largest buffer setting!
> 
> I suspect something's wrong with my Fence Preferences.... what version of PastureOS are you running?


Have you tried running your buffer low?


----------



## Virtuoso

mscp said:


> The article is wrong. R4 and Excalibur do not work in Logic 10.7.3. At least not here it doesn't.


I don't have Excalibur installed, but R4 and the other EA reverbs are running fine here on Monterey 12.3 and Logic 10.7.3 on a 2019 Mac Pro.


----------



## alcorey

charlieclouser said:


> Wait, so you run 120 head of bison on a Mac Pro 5,1?!?!? My fully-loaded Mac Pro 6,1 can only run 82 head of bison, and that's on the largest buffer setting!
> 
> I suspect something's wrong with my Fence Preferences.... what version of PastureOS are you running?


Charlie, you probably need more RAMs to keep your bison moving more smoothly


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Jett Hitt said:


> Yes, yes it is, though honestly, my old 5,1 is working just fine. I run 120 head of bison, and it is calving season,


Hoof your dogies tried to lasso up the the latest Logic version? Or Cubase? Or for that matter MS Office?

If not they're on the buffalo horns of a dilemma.

Meanwhile, has anyone herd whether the new Apple display has a mount for truck balls?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

charlieclouser said:


> Wait, so you run 120 head of bison on a Mac Pro 5,1?!?!? My fully-loaded Mac Pro 6,1 can only run 82 head of bison, and that's on the largest buffer setting!
> 
> I suspect something's wrong with my Fence Preferences.... what version of PastureOS are you running?



I'd call Road Apple support fence post haste.


----------



## Jett Hitt

charlieclouser said:


> Wait, so you run 120 head of bison on a Mac Pro 5,1?!?!? My fully-loaded Mac Pro 6,1 can only run 82 head of bison, and that's on the largest buffer setting!
> 
> I suspect something's wrong with my Fence Preferences.... what version of PastureOS are you running?


I assure you that if my Mac Pro would run 120 bison, I'd be upgrading to a tricked out Ultra in a heartbeat, and I would pay big bucks for Fences 2.0. 

@Nick Batzdorf if I can't take the truck balls off my Ford Turbo diesel and put them on my new Mac Studio, I'm'na be really pissed. It better have a hatrack and a spittoon, too. I already got "Stop the Steal" and "Trump 2024" stickers for it.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Jett Hitt said:


> I already got "Stop the Steal" and "Trump 2024" stickers for it.



Thank goodness.


----------



## IFM

charlieclouser said:


> Wait, so you run 120 head of bison on a Mac Pro 5,1?!?!? My fully-loaded Mac Pro 6,1 can only run 82 head of bison, and that's on the largest buffer setting!
> 
> I suspect something's wrong with my Fence Preferences.... what version of PastureOS are you running?


----------



## mscp

Virtuoso said:


> I don't have Excalibur installed, but R4 and the other EA reverbs are running fine here on Monterey 12.3 and Logic 10.7.3 on a 2019 Mac Pro.


Right, but not in my *M1* machine. 

Excalibur and R4 do not work in it, unless they've released a new update I'm unaware of.

Also, VEP's AU3 doesn't work. It hangs Logic on start.

Those are the things that won't even pass the validation process.


----------



## NoamL

It's too early for a full review, but the first thing I'm noticing is that VEPro loads MUCH FASTER. Practically instant compared to my old networked PC that ran on an i7-4930k chip.

Just one of those things that saves a bit of time at the start of the day!

VEPro also runs on Rosetta (at least, it prompted me to install Rosetta, unlike Pro Tools) and I haven't run into issues there yet.


----------



## Electric Moss

I'm looking forward to pulling the trigger on the studio (most likely with the Ultra) soon when I'm between productions early this summer. 

I've had the trashcan for my main composing rig since 2014 and I've had Logic/Cubase running on the system drive with sample libraries on separate external thunderbolt SSD drives while running the actual Logic/Cubase sessions on an additional external thunderbolt SSD drive(s). I currently have anywhere between 4-6 drives docked and this spread has been pretty rock solid for me. 

As I'm shopping for the new Studio, I'm curious if it might make more sense with M1 to eliminate some of these dock drives and get a larger system drive to run the samples or the project session? If not, I'll just keep the same setup...however, I have all TB 2 docks, so I'd likely update the docks as well, etc, etc...

I have a M1 Macbook Air for edits while traveling right now and I'm honestly pretty blown away by how much power that has, so I can imagine the Max/Ultra will pretty mind blowing, especially coming from an 8 Core (upgraded) trashcan!


----------



## mscp

NoamL said:


> It's too early for a full review, but the first thing I'm noticing is that VEPro loads MUCH FASTER. Practically instant compared to my old networked PC that ran on an i7-4930k chip.
> 
> Just one of those things that saves a bit of time at the start of the day!
> 
> VEPro also runs on Rosetta (at least, it prompted me to install Rosetta, unlike Pro Tools) and I haven't run into issues there yet.


Wait..you're not having issues with VEPro and Logic? How's your template? I'm curious.


----------



## NoamL

I'll be on VEPro and Pro Tools for the next 2 months for a gig, haven't migrated Logic over yet.

So far no issues with Pro Tools (just 1 day of use so far though). In any case, I read somewhere that both DAWs now have optimized releases.


----------



## NoamL

charlieclouser said:


> Wait, so you run 120 head of bison on a Mac Pro 5,1?!?!? My fully-loaded Mac Pro 6,1 can only run 82 head of bison, and that's on the largest buffer setting!
> 
> I suspect something's wrong with my Fence Preferences.... what version of PastureOS are you running?


I set my buffalo setting to "large" and latency to "strenuous," but then the system threw a weird error saying "Somebody in your party has contracted dysentery."


----------



## Virtuoso

mscp said:


> Right, but not in my *M1* machine.
> 
> Excalibur and R4 do not work in it, unless they've released a new update I'm unaware of.


I just installed R4 on my M1 Max MacBook and it's running fine. There's no new update to R4 - it hasn't been updated for a couple of years. Just make sure you're on MacOS 12.3, which fixes some issue with Pace and that you're on the latest iLok Manager version. Reboot as well, to clear your AU cache.


----------



## marclawsonmusic

NoamL said:


> I'll be on VEPro and Pro Tools for the next 2 months for a gig, haven't migrated Logic over yet.


Glad the new machine arrived in time for your gig! Looking forward to hearing your observations whenever you have the time.


----------



## mscp

Virtuoso said:


> I just installed R4 on my M1 Max MacBook and it's running fine. There's no new update to R4 - it hasn't been updated for a couple of years. Just make sure you're on MacOS 12.3, which fixes some issue with Pace and that you're on the latest iLok Manager version. Reboot as well, to clear your AU cache.


This is so weird. Quick question, can you check what version number you're running? I'm on MacOS Monterey too. Ilok's version is latest. Still, Logic cannot validade R4.


----------



## jneebz

NoamL said:


> It's too early for a full review, but the first thing I'm noticing is that VEPro loads MUCH FASTER. Practically instant compared to my old networked PC that ran on an i7-4930k chip.
> 
> Just one of those things that saves a bit of time at the start of the day!
> 
> VEPro also runs on Rosetta (at least, it prompted me to install Rosetta, unlike Pro Tools) and I haven't run into issues there yet.


Fan noise? 😬


----------



## mscp

jneebz said:


> Fan noise? 😬


Doesn't even come up if the cpu doesn't have a sustained load of 50ish% or more. I've run every stress test for 12 hours straight.


----------



## NoamL

jneebz said:


> Fan noise? 😬


No whine/hiss to report here, just a sort of pushing-air sound. This is the M1Max version.

People on GearSpace are going crazy about the sounds and I guess maybe this isn't a machine to have right on your desk when you record acoustic guitar or something. But as someone who does orchestral mockups and uses headphones 90% of the time it's a non issue.


----------



## colony nofi

Virtuoso said:


> If it's Cubase 12, by default it runs in Rosetta mode. To enable Native mode, find the Cubase icon and click command-I. Make sure Rosetta is unticked - NB there is a bug where it may already be unticked but will still run in Rosetta mode, so you have to toggle it on and off again.
> 
> Soundtoys actually released their M1 compatible plugins last week, so if your plugins disappear, just install v5.3.7 and you will have them again.


But not vst3 which cubase 12 needs to run native.


----------



## KEM

colony nofi said:


> But not vst3 which cubase 12 needs to run native.



Yep, Soundtoys should have vst3 soon though


----------



## Jett Hitt

Woohoo!!!!! Things are moving. Get ready for a bigger bison herd!


----------



## KEM

Jett Hitt said:


> Woohoo!!!!! Things are moving. Get ready for a bigger bison herd!



Mine was in Incheon, I got in the mail like 3 days later


----------



## rnb_2

Electric Moss said:


> I'm looking forward to pulling the trigger on the studio (most likely with the Ultra) soon when I'm between productions early this summer.
> 
> I've had the trashcan for my main composing rig since 2014 and I've had Logic/Cubase running on the system drive with sample libraries on separate external thunderbolt SSD drives while running the actual Logic/Cubase sessions on an additional external thunderbolt SSD drive(s). I currently have anywhere between 4-6 drives docked and this spread has been pretty rock solid for me.
> 
> As I'm shopping for the new Studio, I'm curious if it might make more sense with M1 to eliminate some of these dock drives and get a larger system drive to run the samples or the project session? If not, I'll just keep the same setup...however, I have all TB 2 docks, so I'd likely update the docks as well, etc, etc...
> 
> I have a M1 Macbook Air for edits while traveling right now and I'm honestly pretty blown away by how much power that has, so I can imagine the Max/Ultra will pretty mind blowing, especially coming from an 8 Core (upgraded) trashcan!


The internal SSD upgrades are very expensive, and you're unlikely to notice much performance difference vs externals with sample players. However, if you're looking at upgrading your drive docks/enclosures to TB3, a case could certainly be made for moving some of your external data to the internal drive.

Also, the age of your external drives can also come into play, as well as whether they're SATA vs NVMe drives. The older and slower the drives, the better the case for looking at your likely total costs over the next few years as you rotate older drives out, and comparing that with the upgrade cost for the internal drive.


----------



## jcrosby

mscp said:


> This is so weird. Quick question, can you check what version number you're running? I'm on MacOS Monterey too. Ilok's version is latest. Still, Logic cannot validade R4.


Maybe try removing the AU, running the installer again, then rebooting to flush the AU cache. Worth a try while waiting for a reply... Plus, downloading the installer again will ensure you're definitely running the last update.


----------



## Virtuoso

mscp said:


> This is so weird. Quick question, can you check what version number you're running? I'm on MacOS Monterey too. Ilok's version is latest. Still, Logic cannot validade R4.


Logic 10.7.3, Monterey 12.3.1, R4 3.0.0 (March 21, 2019) and iLok 5.5.1


----------



## Spid

rnb_2 said:


> Are your licenses on a dongle, cloud, or machine?


Yes!


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo

UAD has updated putting Monterey on their full compability list, so nothing to fear there anymore.


----------



## davidson

Jett Hitt said:


> Woohoo!!!!! Things are moving. Get ready for a bigger bison herd!


Oooof, I'm right behind you!


----------



## Electric Moss

rnb_2 said:


> The internal SSD upgrades are very expensive, and you're unlikely to notice much performance difference vs externals with sample players. However, if you're looking at upgrading your drive docks/enclosures to TB3, a case could certainly be made for moving some of your external data to the internal drive.
> 
> Also, the age of your external drives can also come into play, as well as whether they're SATA vs NVMe drives. The older and slower the drives, the better the case for looking at your likely total costs over the next few years as you rotate older drives out, and comparing that with the upgrade cost for the internal drive.


Thanks man! In your opinion, is it any more advantageous to run the session on the system drive vs an external now with M1? 

I’m leaning towards the 4 TB internal as a sweet spot.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

What’s this about fan noise? I thought this was supposed to be completely quiet? Especially for that price. 

Concerning for sure as someone who records with mics AND composes. I would want it to excel at both if I drop the $ for it.


----------



## KEM

Baronvonheadless said:


> What’s this about fan noise? I thought this was supposed to be completely quiet? Especially for that price.
> 
> Concerning for sure as someone who records with mics AND composes. I would want it to excel at both if I drop the $ for it.



I haven’t heard any fan noise whatsoever, you’d have to really stress this machine to actually get the fans spinning up to a noticeable level and recording audio won’t even come close to doing that, you’d be fine


----------



## samphony

Jett Hitt said:


> This isn't exactly what we're looking for, but here is a video that at least addresses audio a bit:



We should not forget the single core speed on all m1 chips is still the same.


----------



## samphony

NoamL said:


> I'll be on VEPro and Pro Tools for the next 2 months for a gig, haven't migrated Logic over yet.
> 
> So far no issues with Pro Tools (just 1 day of use so far though). In any case, I read somewhere that both DAWs now have optimized releases.


I hope it doesn’t take DIVA too long until they release the Apple Silicon version of PT.


----------



## rnb_2

Electric Moss said:


> Thanks man! In your opinion, is it any more advantageous to run the session on the system drive vs an external now with M1?
> 
> I’m leaning towards the 4 TB internal as a sweet spot.


The only thing that might change vs your current setup is that the USB controller in the M1s is a bit slower than Intel's, but if you stick with Thunderbolt, that won't matter. Also, if you're using SATA drives, you're probably fine sticking with your Thunderbolt 2 docks/enclosures - just pick up Apple's TB2 to TB3 adapter - since you won't see better performance on TB3. For NVMe drives, you may see better performance, depending on the drive and enclosure.

In general, I think you're fine keeping things as they are - you'd probably see slightly better performance moving things to the internal, but nothing dramatic, so it's really a convenience vs. cost calculation.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

KEM said:


> I haven’t heard any fan noise whatsoever, you’d have to really stress this machine to actually get the fans spinning up to a noticeable level and recording audio won’t even come close to doing that, you’d be fine


Ok that’s good I thought I saw someone mention it


----------



## Soundbed

rnb_2 said:


> The only thing that might change vs your current setup is that the USB controller in the M1s is a bit slower than Intel's, but if you stick with Thunderbolt, that won't matter. Also, if you're using SATA drives, you're probably fine sticking with your Thunderbolt 2 docks/enclosures - just pick up Apple's TB2 to TB3 adapter - since you won't see better performance on TB3. For NVMe drives, you may see better performance, depending on the drive and enclosure.
> 
> In general, I think you're fine keeping things as they are - you'd probably see slightly better performance moving things to the internal, but nothing dramatic, so it's really a convenience vs. cost calculation.


I get the same USB 3.2 read speeds on my M1 Mac Mini as I get on my Intel.


----------



## rnb_2

Soundbed said:


> I get the same USB 3.2 read speeds on my M1 Mac Mini as I get on my Intel.


Cool - I haven't had the opportunity to test this myself, but I know that some people have mentioned this with their M1s, so maybe this has been addressed via a system update or isn't universal.


----------



## davidson

Spent some time with the studio max today running cpu tests to (try and) stress the cooling. Couldn't hear a peep out of the fans unless I put my head round the back and had my ear a few inches away from the vents. Fantastic machine.

Its still an ugly fkr though


----------



## khollister

Mary Spender comments on the quietness in this video (music context in a treated room) -


----------



## aeliron

Virtuoso said:


> I just installed R4 on my M1 Max MacBook and it's running fine. There's no new update to R4 - it hasn't been updated for a couple of years. Just make sure you're on MacOS 12.3, which fixes some issue with Pace and that you're on the latest iLok Manager version. Reboot as well, to clear your AU cache.


Will killing the AU processes in activity monitor accomplish the same? It seems to work for some other problem, I can’t recall what. Something to do with wagon wheels falling off.


----------



## Jett Hitt

davidson said:


> Spent some time with the studio max today running cpu tests to (try and) stress the cooling. Couldn't hear a peep out of the fans unless I put my head round the back and had my ear a few inches away from the vents. Fantastic machine.
> 
> Its still an ugly fkr though


Wow, mine got to Shanghai before yours, and you already have it. Congrats! It's made it to Kentucky and should be here Tuesday.


----------



## Daniel James

I keep seeing people saying their Mac is silent even under load. Wait a few months for that dust to build up inside, then run a large session during the LA summer,_ then_ report back on the fan 😂

My Macpro 6,1 is silent most of the time, until the summer comes around. I think the fan is something that will need the general area to be getting hot to kick in hard. I don't think it gets hot enough after only being on a few hours (or minutes in some of the videos). In these big wide studios everyone seems to have.

Hoping it remains silent in the long run, my experience with Macs is given enough time the fan volume will creep up.

-DJ


----------



## davidson

Jett Hitt said:


> Wow, mine got to Shanghai before yours, and you already have it. Congrats! Mine made it to Kentucky and should be here Tuesday.


No no no, it belongs to a friend. I'll probably still be waiting for mine in 2023.


----------



## davidson

Daniel James said:


> I keep seeing people saying their Mac is silent even under load. Wait a few months for that dust to build up inside, then run a large session during the LA summer,_ then_ report back on the fan 😂
> 
> My Macpro 6,1 is silent most of the time, until the summer comes around. I think the fan is something that will need the general area to be getting hot to kick in hard. I don't think it gets hot enough after only being on a few hours (or minutes in some of the videos). In these big wide studios everyone seems to have.
> 
> Hoping it remains silent in the long run, my experience with Macs is given enough time the fan volume will creep up.
> 
> -DJ


Move back to the UK?


----------



## Daniel James

davidson said:


> Move back to the UK?


Seems a bit drastic for a computer fan.


----------



## Jett Hitt

Regarding @Daniel James' comments about dust, I have been thinking about this for a few days, wondering if there is some way to put a filter around that bottom to keep it from sucking up all the dust. I am usually appalled at the amount of dust in my 5,1 when I open it. But there's no easy way to open the Mac Studio. Has anyone had any ideas about this?


----------



## Michael Antrum

Daniel James said:


> Seems a bit drastic for a computer fan.


I thought you lived in the land of air conditioning ?


----------



## KEM

Daniel James said:


> I keep seeing people saying their Mac is silent even under load. Wait a few months for that dust to build up inside, then run a large session during the LA summer,_ then_ report back on the fan 😂
> 
> My Macpro 6,1 is silent most of the time, until the summer comes around. I think the fan is something that will need the general area to be getting hot to kick in hard. I don't think it gets hot enough after only being on a few hours (or minutes in some of the videos). In these big wide studios everyone seems to have.
> 
> Hoping it remains silent in the long run, my experience with Macs is given enough time the fan volume will creep up.
> 
> -DJ



Apple Silicon doesn’t generate nearly as much heat or draw as much power as Intel chips, I really don’t think it’ll become an issue to be honest


----------



## Pier

KEM said:


> I haven’t heard any fan noise whatsoever, you’d have to really stress this machine to actually get the fans spinning up to a noticeable level and recording audio won’t even come close to doing that, you’d be fine


But you have the M1 Ultra, right?

I think the fan noise is more noticeable with the M1 Max.


----------



## KEM

Pier said:


> But you have the M1 Ultra, right?
> 
> I think the fan noise is more noticeable with the M1 Max.



Yep, add that to the list of reasons to just go for the Ultra


----------



## Daniel James

Michael Antrum said:


> I thought you lived in the land of air conditioning ?


One would think!


----------



## NoamL

samphony said:


> I hope it doesn’t take DIVA too long until they release the Apple Silicon version of PT.


Haven't they already? I'm on Pro Tools 2021.12, it's working fine and didn't prompt a Rosetta 2 install so I assumed it was native.


----------



## Pier

Daniel James said:


> One would think!


I lived in Cancún for two years and hated living constantly with AC.

We now live in a less hot area of Mexico but we still use ceiling fans. They are almost silent at the lowest level and consume a fraction of the electricity. Also installation can super easy if you already have wires in the ceiling.


----------



## Jett Hitt

I would rather deal with the heat than the sound of an AC unit. Unfortunately, my Core i7 iMac will shut down once the room temperature reaches 80° F (28° C). In the Ozarks, it will be 80°+ for most of the summer, so there's no avoiding the AC. Maybe the Mac Studio will make it less necessary. That would be a godsend.


----------



## mscp

Daniel James said:


> I keep seeing people saying their Mac is silent even under load. Wait a few months for that dust to build up inside, then run a large session during the LA summer,_ then_ report back on the fan 😂
> 
> My Macpro 6,1 is silent most of the time, until the summer comes around. I think the fan is something that will need the general area to be getting hot to kick in hard. I don't think it gets hot enough after only being on a few hours (or minutes in some of the videos). In these big wide studios everyone seems to have.
> 
> Hoping it remains silent in the long run, my experience with Macs is given enough time the fan volume will creep up.
> 
> -DJ


No need. One of my sessions already brings the CPU to 70% load on all cores and the fans do ramp up. It's around 65dB/68dB here -- LOUD. If anyone hasn't listened to it yet it's because they're not even pushing sustained loads of 50%+ for more than 5 minutes. Try looping a massive session and you will hear the computer "take off" if you have plugins everywhere...

The computer is a tiny beast though. I got the Max because I know for sure it will not be a computer I'll be able to use for a decade. I'm sure it will piss me off after 4-5 years.


----------



## colony nofi

Friend in London who has done benchmarking on these machines for a post house has said that the thermal improvements on the Ultra over the Max are significant. He can still make the fans ramp right up on the ultra, but under heavier loads. That copper in the heatsink sounds like its working its magic.


----------



## MusiquedeReve

So I am loving the new MacBook Pro 16" with the M1 Max and 64GB unified memory

Logic Pro bounces faster and freezes tracks faster

However, I just installed Get Good Drums and created a MIDI drum track with it

While the Get Good Drums track was playing, I attempted to change the preset within Kontakt for Get Good Drums and, each time I switched a preset, I got a "System Overload" message and the track stopped playing

Any ideas why in the world this would happen? Is switching presets that heavy of a task? I don't like this one bit (although, admittedly, maybe I am overreacting or not understanding what is happening)


----------



## mscp

MorphineNoir said:


> So I am loving the new MacBook Pro 16" with the M1 Max and 64GB unified memory
> 
> Logic Pro bounces faster and freezes tracks faster
> 
> However, I just installed Get Good Drums and created a MIDI drum track with it
> 
> While the Get Good Drums track was playing, I attempted to change the preset within Kontakt for Get Good Drums and, each time I switched a preset, I got a "System Overload" message and the track stopped playing
> 
> Any ideas why in the world this would happen? Is switching presets that heavy of a task? I don't like this one bit (although, admittedly, maybe I am overreacting or not understanding what is happening)


No. It's because Logic 10.7.3 is a piece of horse s...I'm back to Logic after a decade with Nuendo and I'm having nothing but headaches with this DAW under M1. I bought into that whole Apple ethos thinking that everything is super optimised. Right...I have a huge list of complaints, but I don't believe Apple would like to read through everything. So I've decided to just leave Logic for the meantime and keep working with Nuendo instead --- which works wonderfully with the M1.

I hope they fix these CPU spikes soon so I can at least take this DAW seriously.


----------



## KEM

MorphineNoir said:


> So I am loving the new MacBook Pro 16" with the M1 Max and 64GB unified memory
> 
> Logic Pro bounces faster and freezes tracks faster
> 
> However, I just installed Get Good Drums and created a MIDI drum track with it
> 
> While the Get Good Drums track was playing, I attempted to change the preset within Kontakt for Get Good Drums and, each time I switched a preset, I got a "System Overload" message and the track stopped playing
> 
> Any ideas why in the world this would happen? Is switching presets that heavy of a task? I don't like this one bit (although, admittedly, maybe I am overreacting or not understanding what is happening)



I can definitely tell you that it’s not because of GGD (and I respect you for using GGD, as they’re the best in the industry and I like people that have good taste)


----------



## MusiquedeReve

KEM said:


> I can definitely tell you that it’s not because of GGD (and I respect you for using GGD, as they’re the best in the industry and I like people that have good taste)


So a Logic project with one drum track overloads a new M1 Max merely by switching a preset while it is playing? WOW!


----------



## KEM

MorphineNoir said:


> So a Logic project with one drum track overloads a new M1 Max merely by switching a preset while it is playing? WOW!



Cubase is handling GGD just fine


----------



## HCMarkus

Jett Hitt said:


> Regarding @Daniel James' comments about dust, I have been thinking about this for a few days, wondering if there is some way to put a filter around that bottom to keep it from sucking up all the dust. I am usually appalled at the amount of dust in my 5,1 when I open it. But there's no easy way to open the Mac Studio. Has anyone had any ideas about this?


Not particularly (or is that partically?) worries about this, but have been thinking about a third-party filter stand. I figure some enterprising individual with the ability to cut filter foam will devise and market a filter that the Mac Studio sits on/in.

First thought was a block of filter foam hollowed out enough to allow easy flow around the Mac's air intake. Then diid a little Googling and found filter foam on Amazon that, with the proper frame, could work great. As long as the area of the filter is substantially larger in area than the Mac Studio's air intake, I don't think such a device would cause the machine to run much, if any, hotter.

Who wants to design this?

PS: My Studio Ultra is in my town and supposed to arrive at the studio tomorrow.


----------



## Jett Hitt

HCMarkus said:


> Not particularly (or is that partically?) worries about this, but have been thinking about a third-party filter stand. I figure some enterprising individual with the ability to cut filter foam will devise and market a filter that the Mac Studio sits on/in.
> 
> First thought was a block of filter foam hollowed out enough to allow easy flow around the Mac's air intake. Then diid a little Googling and found filter foam on Amazon that, with the proper frame, could work great. As long as the area of the filter is substantially larger in area than the Mac Studio's air intake, I don't think such a device would cause the machine to run much, if any, hotter.
> 
> Who wants to design this?
> 
> PS: My Studio Ultra is in my town and supposed to arrive at the studio tomorrow.


Interesting. I was searching Amazon for filter foam myself earlier this evening. I was thinking of something like this:



If it were cut to the size of the machine with a hole the size of the circle on the bottom, it should work. I guess you'd have to keep an eye on the CPU temps to make sure it wasn't restricting the airflow too much.


----------



## samphony

NoamL said:


> Haven't they already? I'm on Pro Tools 2021.12, it's working fine and didn't prompt a Rosetta 2 install so I assumed it was native.


Nope it’s even non Rosetta 2 optimized  only the plugins are optimized.


----------



## davidson

mscp said:


> No need. One of my sessions already brings the CPU to 70% load on all cores and the fans do ramp up. It's around 65dB/68dB here -- LOUD. If anyone hasn't listened to it yet it's because they're not even pushing sustained loads of 50%+ for more than 5 minutes. Try looping a massive session and you will hear the computer "take off" if you have plugins everywhere...
> 
> The computer is a tiny beast though. I got the Max because I know for sure it will not be a computer I'll be able to use for a decade. I'm sure it will piss me off after 4-5 years.


We had a studio max running its cpus sustained at near 100% and the fans never moved from their almost silent idle speed. I wonder if some studios have issues then?

Most of the youtubers look to have experienced the same too. The cooling seems to be fantastically efficient on both models. Are there any videos of people with these fan issues on the net? Any chance you could film your own example?


----------



## davidson

@Jett Hitt Where you at?


----------



## stigc56

Daniel James said:


> I don't think it gets hot enough after only being on a few hours (or minutes in some of the videos). In these big wide studios everyone seems to have.


Hi
I have also a Trashcan and sometimes I get nervous about the temperature. During a large session my CPU gets around 82°C. Is that an okay temperature do you think?


----------



## khollister

mscp said:


> No. It's because Logic 10.7.3 is a piece of horse s...I'm back to Logic after a decade with Nuendo and I'm having nothing but headaches with this DAW under M1. I bought into that whole Apple ethos thinking that everything is super optimised. Right...I have a huge list of complaints, but I don't believe Apple would like to read through everything. So I've decided to just leave Logic for the meantime and keep working with Nuendo instead --- which works wonderfully with the M1.
> 
> I hope they fix these CPU spikes soon so I can at least take this DAW seriously.


So I have a few Kontakt libraries that "misbehave" (CPU spiking) in Kontakt 6.7.0/Logic 10.7.3, but they also act the same (or worse) on Kontakt in Cubase 12 and Studio One 5.5 - either native or Rosetta. Same with the new Korg Wavestate Native - the spastic CPU at idle is similar with Logic and Cubase (Cubase is actually slightly worse).

Not saying Logic is perfect, but it seems to be reasonably well behaved for me on my M1Max. 

I don't have GGD, so I can't offer an opinion as to what might be going on there.

While I like Cubase (and C12 seems to run really well on the M1 stuff), the mess that switching audio interfaces makes of my external FX routing when going from mobile to studio mode as well as the ridiculous VST2 stance makes it of limited use at the moment.


----------



## BassClef

BassClef said:


> Studio Ultra ordered announcement day... Apple projected arrival is May 11-25. Status just changed from "Processing" to "Preparing to Ship". I hope that AT LEAST means it had been manufactured!


OK… just got up this am with a new email from Apple advising me that my Studio Ultra has now been shipped. The arrival date is now April 15… a month ahead of original due date. (May 11-25) That also triggered the shipment of my empty packaging they are sending to me. I will use that to pack and return my 8 year old iMac for a $250 credit.


----------



## Luka

BassClef said:


> OK… just got up this am with a new email from Apple advising me that my Studio Ultra has now been shipped. The arrival date is now April 15… a month ahead of original due date. (May 11-25) That also triggered the shipment of my empty packaging they are sending to me. I will use that to pack and return my 8 year old iMac for a $250 credit.


What is your configuration for the Mac Studio? Maybe they have more of that specific configuration than expected?


----------



## khollister

Kontakt update today - 6.7.1 with a bunch of bug fixes - FYI


----------



## BassClef

Luka said:


> What is your configuration for the Mac Studio? Maybe they have more of that specific configuration than expected?


Studio Ultra, 20 core cpu, 48 core gpu, 128 GB ram, 2TB internal SSD.


----------



## mscp

khollister said:


> So I have a few Kontakt libraries that "misbehave" (CPU spiking) in Kontakt 6.7.0/Logic 10.7.3, but they also act the same (or worse) on Kontakt in Cubase 12 and Studio One 5.5 - either native or Rosetta. Same with the new Korg Wavestate Native - the spastic CPU at idle is similar with Logic and Cubase (Cubase is actually slightly worse).


That's odd. Kontakt runs fine in Nuendo 11 here with GGD's Aggressive Rock and Metal libraries. In Logic though...ugh.



khollister said:


> Not saying Logic is perfect, but it seems to be reasonably well behaved for me on my M1Max.



My biggest complaints are VSL stuff and some kontakt libraries like Drum Fury, GGD, ...


Like the Windows haters out there when something goes wrong, I'll say: "f... MacOS and Logic". haha. I hope this whole M1 train wreck gets sorted out soon. Meanwhile I'll use my former DAW PC as a VEP workaround until *everything* works well. ugh. I abhor workarounds.


----------



## Luka

BassClef said:


> Studio Ultra, 20 core cpu, 48 core gpu, 128 GB ram, 2TB internal SSD.


Oh! I have the exact same Config! I hope mine will arrive earlier too! haha


----------



## Jett Hitt

davidson said:


> @Jett Hitt Where you at?


I am still sitting in Louisville, KY. Been there for 24 hours. The delivery time is tomorrow before 19:00.


----------



## Zedcars

Just got an email from Oeksound saying native M1 compatibility for Soothe2 and Spiff coming very soon. 

There seems to be more and more AS support as each week passes. Things are looking good for the future.


----------



## Soundbed

Anyone hang out at GearSpace? I tried catching up with a thread but … it was pretty challenging to follow. There might be useful information but it appeared at first glance to be 80% not useful, to me.


----------



## Jett Hitt

Soundbed said:


> it appeared at first glance to be 80% not useful, to me.


Sorta like this thread


----------



## Zedcars

Soundbed said:


> Anyone hang out at GearSpace? I tried catching up with a thread but … it was pretty challenging to follow. There might be useful information but it appeared at first glance to be 80% not useful, to me.


I go there to check out the general consensus on synths and plug-ins. But don’t post there as don’t want to embarrass myself with my cluelessness. Whereas here we can all be clueless together so it feels more like home.


----------



## gsilbers

Soundbed said:


> Anyone hang out at GearSpace? I tried catching up with a thread but … it was pretty challenging to follow. There might be useful information but it appeared at first glance to be 80% not useful, to me.



Every thread over there is about the same 

its just guys in an eternal pissing contest to know who knows more about specs and be called king audio scientist. 

but sure, lets change the name so its not offensive to women... like if that was the main reason in the first place. 

anyways, to be more neutral.. geaspace deals with systems that have much less ram that what we need in this forum w sample libraries so i wonder the ram vs cpu vs fan noise on a full load of sample libraries would look like.


----------



## Soundbed

Jett Hitt said:


> Sorta like this thread


The irony was not lost on me when I posted, agreed.



gsilbers said:


> Every thread over there is about the same
> 
> its just guys in an eternal pissing contest to know who knows more about specs and be called king audio scientist.


Yeah. That ^^^


----------



## Nimrod7

Mine also on hold on Brussels 4 days now. They have no idea why, they started an investigation. 

Apple needs to work on their delivery logistics. Months delays even if you order day 1, tons of tracking mistakes, wrong projections, overall I expected better for their standards.


----------



## KEM

Sounds like I got lucky with my delivery


----------



## HCMarkus

UPS is saying mine arrives today; it reported the Mac was in my city yesterday, so I'm pretty sure they are on-track for today. As another posted mentioned somewhere earlier in this lengthy thread, Apple's initial estimate, which for awhile appeared to be considerably off, turned out to be pretty accurate after the UPS delay in China. I can't really fault Apple given the crazy shape the world is currently in.


----------



## HCMarkus

Jett Hitt said:


> If it were cut to the size of the machine with a hole the size of the circle on the bottom, it should work. I guess you'd have to keep an eye on the CPU temps to make sure it wasn't restricting the airflow too much.


To me, that approach feels like airflow might be restricted too much. I think an approach wherein a larger surface area of filter material is somewhat distant from the Mac air intake would be a better way to go.

Imagine a box 2-3" tall with the exact cross section of the Mac Studio and open top upon which the computer rests, sealed to the top edges of the sides by a thin layer of cushioning, closed-cell foam. The 2-3" sides are open frame construction housing washable/replaceable filter material. Plenty of airflow, nice appearance (for those who care) and a cool, clean running Mac Studio.


----------



## khollister

mscp said:


> That's odd. Kontakt runs fine in Nuendo 11 here with GGD's Aggressive Rock and Metal libraries. In Logic though...ugh.
> 
> 
> 
> My biggest complaints are VSL stuff and some kontakt libraries like Drum Fury, GGD, ...
> 
> 
> Like the Windows haters out there when something goes wrong, I'll say: "f... MacOS and Logic". haha. I hope this whole M1 train wreck gets sorted out soon. Meanwhile I'll use my former DAW PC as a VEP workaround until *everything* works well. ugh. I abhor workarounds.


The VSL players spike when you first play some notes after instantiating them, but if you let them settle down, they seem to work fine for me in Rosetta. Somewhat annoying, but hopefully a short lived compromise.

The biggest concern I have is the BestService ENGINE (Tari's libraries). I emailed hem last year and they said there would eventually be a native version but it didn't seem to be anytime soon. It does run OK in Logic at least - no help in C12 of course.


----------



## khollister

Nimrod7 said:


> Mine also on hold on Brussels 4 days now. They have no idea why, they started an investigation.
> 
> Apple needs to work on their delivery logistics. Months delays even if you order day 1, tons of tracking mistakes, wrong projections, overall I expected better for their standards.


I think most of this is beyond even Apple's control. Global transportation is still suffering and the China "COVID-zero" draconian lockdowns have to be playing havoc with anything sourced out of China


----------



## mscp

khollister said:


> The VSL players spike when you first play some notes after instantiating them, but if you let them settle down, they seem to work fine for me in Rosetta. Somewhat annoying, but hopefully a short lived compromise.



The problem I'm having is with a lot of instances loaded up. Logic starts going mental.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

colony nofi said:


> Friend in London who has done benchmarking on these machines for a post house has said that the thermal improvements on the Ultra over the Max are significant. He can still make the fans ramp right up on the ultra, but under heavier loads. That copper in the heatsink sounds like its working its magic.



What's fan noise?


----------



## jneebz

Nick Batzdorf said:


> What's fan noise?


Just curious…how do you get airflow in there?


----------



## davidson

Nick Batzdorf said:


> What's fan noise?


Bloody hell, doesn't it get hot in there?


----------



## HCMarkus

davidson said:


> Bloody hell, doesn't it get hot in there?


In the photo, you can see the top machine is on fire 

Maybe there is ventilation from/to another room...

I have a machine closet. It has a fan that exhausts, and a vent feeding air-conditioning to it. It has never allowed my Mac Pro 51, to overheat, but I always keep an eye on the machine's temp. I anticipate thermal concerns being completely abolished when I switch to the Mac Studio.


----------



## marclawsonmusic

mscp said:


> The problem I'm having is with a lot of instances loaded up. Logic starts going mental.


@mscp I'd like to ask some more questions about your experience with Logic and Nuendo, but don't want to derail this thread. 

I can't seem to send you a PM - do we need to friend each other? Would appreciate hearing more about your experience if you are willing. Cheers


----------



## mscp

marclawsonmusic said:


> @mscp I'd like to ask some more questions about your experience with Logic and Nuendo, but don't want to derail this thread.
> 
> I can't seem to send you a PM - do we need to friend each other? Would appreciate hearing more about your experience if you are willing. Cheers


I dropped a pm on FB. Glad to help.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

jneebz said:


> Just curious…how do you get airflow in there?


I don't. It's the garage (my studio/office was originally the other half, converted in the 1950s).

It does get pretty hot in there in the summer. The door is aluminum and not insulated, although we live in a canyon that runs E-W so the direct sunlight is only in the morning.

Years ago I had a fan running in there, but it broke, I never replaced it, and haven't had any failures.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

davidson said:


> Bloody hell, doesn't it get hot in there?


It gets hot, but not bloody hell hot.

The only time the Mac's fans race is when I'm using Topaz Gigapixel AI, which isn't all the time. (It's a program that uses AI to enlarge photos.)


----------



## rnb_2

stigc56 said:


> Hi
> I have also a Trashcan and sometimes I get nervous about the temperature. During a large session my CPU gets around 82°C. Is that an okay temperature do you think?


The rule of thumb I've seen is that 100C is where things start to get dicey if temps stay there too long, and over that should be avoided.


----------



## mscp

rnb_2 said:


> The rule of thumb I've seen is that 100C is where things start to get dicey if temps stay there too long, and over that should be avoided.


Yes. Modern Intel chips are supposed to handle 100C. From 90C to 100C, you will have thermal throttling. From 100C up, the machine will just shut down to prevent further damage.


----------



## Soundbed

Mine is late by 30 minutes, according to the most recent estimate by UPS.

It went "out for delivery" 6 hours ago from a nearby city / suburb.

Not that I'm checking for updates every 2 minutes, or anything.

EDIT - mine arrived. It’s still in the box.

I need to catch my breath.

Btw it’s a day earlier than Apple’s (revised) prediction, from a few weeks ago.


----------



## jcrosby

Nimrod7 said:


> Mine also on hold on Brussels 4 days now. They have no idea why, they started an investigation.
> 
> Apple needs to work on their delivery logistics. Months delays even if you order day 1, tons of tracking mistakes, wrong projections, overall I expected better for their standards.


It's unfortunate you got stuck in the middle of this shipping disaster :( It's not necessarily an Apple thing though, their shipping's subcontracted. The real problem looks to be that all of the shipping services make delivery projections using AI, and (not surprisingly) AI falls apart when massive infrastructures fail at the same time. Anyway, hope it gets sorted quickly!


----------



## HCMarkus

jcrosby said:


> It's unfortunate you got stuck in the middle of this shipping disaster :( It's not necessarily an Apple thing though, their shipping's subcontracted. The real problem looks to be that all of the shipping services make delivery projections using AI, and (not surprisingly) AI falls apart when massive infrastructures fail at the same time. Anyway, hope it gets sorted quickly!


I find the circuitous path my machine has traveled interesting:


04/04/2022
5:57 A.M.*On the Way*
Processing at UPS Facility
San Diego, CA, United States04/03/2022
5:42 P.M.Arrived at Facility
San Diego, CA, United States04/03/2022
3:46 P.M.Departed from Facility
Ontario, CA, United States04/03/2022
1:19 P.M.Arrived at Facility
Ontario, CA, United States04/02/2022
5:28 A.M.Departed from Facility
Louisville, KY, United States04/01/2022
2:17 P.M.Import Scan
Louisville, KY, United States04/01/2022
12:09 P.M.Arrived at Facility
Louisville, KY, United States04/01/2022
2:14 A.M.Departed from Facility
Anchorage, AK, United States04/01/2022
12:50 A.M.Arrived at Facility
Anchorage, AK, United States03/31/2022
11:08 P.M.*Cleared Import Customs*
Your package has cleared customs and is on the way.04/01/2022
11:37 A.M.Departed from Facility
Incheon, Korea, Republic of04/01/2022
9:00 A.M.Arrived at Facility
Incheon, Korea, Republic of04/01/2022
8:56 A.M.Arrived at Facility
Incheon, Korea, Republic of04/01/2022
6:27 A.M.Departed from Facility
Shanghai, China03/31/2022
11:54 P.M.Your package is in transit. We're updating plans to schedule your delivery. / The package will be forwarded to a UPS facility in the destination city.
Shanghai, China03/31/2022
11:29 P.M.Your package is in transit. We're updating plans to schedule your delivery.
Shanghai, China03/29/2022
12:20 A.M.Departed from Facility
Shenzhen, China03/28/2022
10:48 P.M.Package is delayed in transit. Delivery will be rescheduled. Check back or signup for UPS My Choice® to receive updates.
Shenzhen, China03/28/2022
7:03 A.M.The package is at the clearing agency awaiting final release.03/28/2022
5:00 P.M.Origin Scan
Shenzhen, China03/28/2022
3:00 P.M.*Label Created*
Shipper created a label, UPS has not received the package yet.
China

Edit: The long strange trip has ended. My Mac Studio arrived home late this afternoon.


----------



## Soundbed

I finally read the fine print on this external drive enclosure from OWC.

(Maybe someone mentioned this one before, but I've passed by this product many times due to the way it's marketed ... and now, today, I'm finally "seeing it" as if for the first time.

There are two drive bays.

EACH drive bay can have an OWC U2 Shuttle.

Each Shuttle can hold up to four NVMe M.2 SSDs.

So, it will become an* 8 drive NVMe SSD external enclosure*.

🤯

The base enclosure is $250 without drives or RAID software:

https://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/TB3MPDU000J/ 

And each shuttle is an additional $150 I guess:






OWC U2 Shuttle for up to four NVMe M.2 SSDs in a 3.5-inch Drive


The world's first U.2 carrier shuttle for 3.5-inch drive bays that combines four NVMe M.2 SSDs. Built for OWC storage and PCIe expansion solutions.




eshop.macsales.com





Therefore...

$250 +
$150 +
$150 =
--------
$550 for an 8 drive NVMe enclosure (four NVMe drives in each Shuttle, with 2 bays to hold each shuttle).


----------



## Jett Hitt

Soundbed said:


> I finally read the fine print on this external drive enclosure from OWC.
> 
> (Maybe someone mentioned this one before, but I've passed by this product many times due to the way it's marketed ... and now, today, I'm finally "seeing it" as if for the first time.
> 
> There are two drive bays.
> 
> EACH drive bay can have an OWC U2 Shuttle.
> 
> Each Shuttle can hold up to four NVMe M.2 SSDs.
> 
> So, it will become an* 8 drive NVMe SSD external enclosure*.
> 
> 🤯
> 
> The base enclosure is $250 without drives or RAID software:
> 
> https://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/TB3MPDU000J/
> 
> And each shuttle is an additional $150 I guess:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OWC U2 Shuttle for up to four NVMe M.2 SSDs in a 3.5-inch Drive
> 
> 
> The world's first U.2 carrier shuttle for 3.5-inch drive bays that combines four NVMe M.2 SSDs. Built for OWC storage and PCIe expansion solutions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> eshop.macsales.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Therefore...
> 
> $250 +
> $150 +
> $150 =
> --------
> $550 for an 8 drive NVMe enclosure (four NVMe drives in each Shuttle, with 2 bays to hold each shuttle).


@Soundbed WTF? What are you doing? Why aren't you making videos? I'm not getting any younger here. Brand spanking new Mac Studio sitting right there in the box, and you're ogling drive bays? Snap snap, chop-chop.


----------



## Nimrod7

jcrosby said:


> It's unfortunate you got stuck in the middle of this shipping disaster :( It's not necessarily an Apple thing though, their shipping's subcontracted.


Thank you! Very few companies in the world have the influence and cash to change how things are done. Apple is one of them, that’s why I am pushing the responsibility there. With the amount of orders they have, they can orchestrate certain things in their logistic side, from scheduling dedicated flights, to having contractors for the ”last mile”. They can do that to fulfill the demand especially on a product launch, and down the road use traditional shipping methods.

Amazon totally solve it, by using and investing building their own shipping infrastructure. Its a larger shipping volume, however not necessarily as much profitable as the products sold by apple.


----------



## rnb_2

Soundbed said:


> I finally read the fine print on this external drive enclosure from OWC.
> 
> (Maybe someone mentioned this one before, but I've passed by this product many times due to the way it's marketed ... and now, today, I'm finally "seeing it" as if for the first time.
> 
> There are two drive bays.
> 
> EACH drive bay can have an OWC U2 Shuttle.
> 
> Each Shuttle can hold up to four NVMe M.2 SSDs.
> 
> So, it will become an* 8 drive NVMe SSD external enclosure*.
> 
> 🤯
> 
> The base enclosure is $250 without drives or RAID software:
> 
> https://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/TB3MPDU000J/
> 
> And each shuttle is an additional $150 I guess:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OWC U2 Shuttle for up to four NVMe M.2 SSDs in a 3.5-inch Drive
> 
> 
> The world's first U.2 carrier shuttle for 3.5-inch drive bays that combines four NVMe M.2 SSDs. Built for OWC storage and PCIe expansion solutions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> eshop.macsales.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Therefore...
> 
> $250 +
> $150 +
> $150 =
> --------
> $550 for an 8 drive NVMe enclosure (four NVMe drives in each Shuttle, with 2 bays to hold each shuttle).


That product still feels like an odd duck to me. Those U.2 shuttles are pretty clearly designed for bulk media jobs - film/video - where you send the drive to a lab (thus the lockable shuttle casing), but that enclosure doesn't make it easy to get the shuttles in and out. The front plate is attached to the internal casing, and the whole thing has to come out of the external case to get at the drives.

Also, my head hurts thinking about how much NVMe bandwidth is being squandered in this setup - it's basically twice as constrained as my 4M2 (which wasn't as bad when I got it, since drives weren't as fast in late 2018), since you now have up to 8 NVMe drives sharing that 2.8GB/s Thunderbolt pipe, when any single drive could now saturate it.

If I needed this much storage and had the commensurate budget, I'd probably vote for the 12TB Iodyne Pro Data over the 16TB OWC U.2 Dual, since it will allow you to bond two Thunderbolt connections together to get ~5GB/s out of 12 drives vs 2.8GB/s out of 8. If that's overkill, you could get 2 4M2's (one with the RAID software, one without) for $600, add your own NVMe drives, and RAID the two enclosures on separate Thunderbolt ports.


----------



## khollister

mscp said:


> The problem I'm having is with a lot of instances loaded up. Logic starts going mental.


I had over 200 tracks of Synchron Strings Pro running shortly after I got my M1Max MBP last year. I'll see if I still have the project file and try it again on 10.7.3 & 12.3.1


----------



## mscp

khollister said:


> I had over 200 tracks of Synchron Strings Pro running shortly after I got my M1Max MBP last year. I'll see if I still have the project file and try it again on 10.7.3 & 12.3.1


Thank you!


----------



## colony nofi

Luka said:


> Oh! I have the exact same Config! I hope mine will arrive earlier too! haha


Ditto to mine. Another composer here had the Max / 2TB / 64GB version ordered after mine and has already received it!


----------



## colony nofi

Nick Batzdorf said:


> What's fan noise?


hahaha! YES! My previous studios had a closet almost exactly like this. However - I was lucky enough to have an air con in/out in that space. (It was a room in room scenario, and the machines sat inside the gap between the skins... )
It contained the same Mac as you as well. Worked an absolute treat. Room had well under 30dB ambient noise. These days my studio space is not as well isolated... still ok, but its just a writing room rather than also having recording being done in it. And since covid I find myself working at home in a room with zero isolation from the house. I think I would have gone crazy 10 years ago trying to do this... but turns out we all change hey!


----------



## BassClef

Apple is telling me April 15, but UPS is telling me this Wednesday! So far, tracing can not confirm that it has yet left the Hong Kong airport.


----------



## davidson

BassClef said:


> Apple is telling me April 15, but UPS is telling me this Wednesday! So far, tracing can not confirm that it has yet left the Hong Kong airport.


My UPS tracking just changed to wednesday too. I think the automated system is talking out of its arse again.


----------



## jcrosby

Nimrod7 said:


> Thank you! Very few companies in the world have the influence and cash to change how things are done. Apple is one of them, that’s why I am pushing the responsibility there. With the amount of orders they have, they can orchestrate certain things in their logistic side, from scheduling dedicated flights, to having contractors for the ”last mile”. They can do that to fulfill the demand especially on a product launch, and down the road use traditional shipping methods.
> 
> Amazon totally solve it, by using and investing building their own shipping infrastructure. Its a larger shipping volume, however not necessarily as much profitable as the products sold by apple.


Fair point for sure.... Send feedback (if you haven't already)....

Assuming many have already, the more dissatisfied voices the more likely they are to make an effort that's more than a statement or symbolic gesture.









Feedback - Mac Studio


Apple wants to hear from you. Send us your comments and feedback about Mac Studio.



www.apple.com


----------



## Jett Hitt

Mine left Louisville at 3:26 PM, but I have no idea what time zone they’re going by because that time was still a couple of hours away when they posted that. Supposedly arriving tomorrow by noon. We’ll see. I’m not holding my breath.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

colony nofi said:


> hahaha! YES! My previous studios had a closet almost exactly like this.


It's actually the garage, not a closet!


----------



## Pier

Nick Batzdorf said:


> What's fan noise?


My BopPad also got these weird spots!

I contacted KMI and they told me it's just a cosmetic issue that was solved in later revisions.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Pier said:


> My BopPad also got these weird spots!
> 
> I contacted KMI and they told me it's just a cosmetic issue that was solved in later revisions.


I never even noticed them until now!

They're in a symmetrical pattern, so something underneath must have a chemical reaction with the surface rubbery stuff.


----------



## Pier

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I never even noticed them until now!
> 
> They're in a symmetrical pattern, so something underneath must have a chemical reaction with the surface rubbery stuff.


Mine has the same exact pattern. Maybe it's the glue that keeps the rubber smart fabric in place.


----------



## KEM

Pier said:


> Mine has the same exact pattern. Maybe it's the glue that keeps the rubber smart fabric in place.



Does it djent?


----------



## Soundbed

Jett Hitt said:


> @Soundbed WTF? What are you doing? Why aren't you making videos? I'm not getting any younger here. Brand spanking new Mac Studio sitting right there in the box, and you're ogling drive bays? Snap snap, chop-chop.


It wasn’t here yet when I wrote that. Ok back to making videos.


----------



## Soundbed

rnb_2 said:


> you could get 2 4M2's (one with the RAID software, one without) for $600, add your own NVMe drives, and RAID the two enclosures on separate Thunderbolt ports.


This is a genius type of idea.


----------



## khollister

mscp said:


> Thank you!


OK, finally got the project loaded (the damn VSL Helper app slowed things down) and it took a lot of attempts to initialize all the instances due to the "first time CPU spike" thing, but I can repeatedly play 200 tracks of Synchron Strings Pro with a unison legato melody spread across V1/V2/Va/VC/CB, Classic Room Mix (3 mic channels) with reverb turned off.

Large process buffer size, threads set to Automatic (no e-cores) with M1Max MBP.


----------



## rnb_2

Soundbed said:


> This is a genius type of idea.


I actually went back and added that bit after posting the original reply - I had a sudden flash of memory that OWC did this with a couple Thunderblades back when they were first released, just to show off the speed.


----------



## mscp

khollister said:


> OK, finally got the project loaded (the damn VSL Helper app slowed things down) and it took a lot of attempts to initialize all the instances due to the "first time CPU spike" thing, but I can repeatedly play 200 tracks of Synchron Strings Pro with a unison legato melody spread across V1/V2/Va/VC/CB, Classic Room Box (3 mic channels) with reverb turned off.
> 
> Large process buffer size, threads set to Automatic (no e-cores) with M1Max MBP.


Have you done the ilok conversion yet?


----------



## rnb_2

mscp said:


> Have you done the ilok conversion yet?


Based on his posts in the VSL threads, @khollister has done the conversion.


----------



## Soundbed

This was not a RAM test.

~

I have the Max, not the Ultra, with 64GB unified memory and 1TB internal drive.

Not going to comment on the fan sound much yet, because after migrating from a Mac Mini M1, and also updating the OS to 12.3.1, it might still be indexing or whatever. The fan is audible a meter away (and pointed toward me so I can see all the connections in the back while I get situated) but quiet.

My first test is a little surprising. Like, "I am going to max out this system so fast" kind of surprising. I hope I am making an error.

I've created a session that should be openable on a Mac Mini w/ 8GB of RAM (unified memory but that's too many letters to type every time).

The session is mostly Infinite Woodwinds and Brass from Aaron Venture, plus some low RAM Spitfire Symphonic Strings patches. Did you know there are legato and CS patches in SSS that only use about 50MB of RAM per instrument "section"?

Each "track" in this session only takes about 50MB of RAM or less, and has 4 Kontakt Instruments (for winds and brass) or 1 Kontakt Instrument (for Strings).

19 "tracks" — so, the total RAM footprint is less than 1000MB.

Most of the "tracks" have legato instruments, and they have as many as 60 "voices" per Kontakt instance, when the notes are really fast (30 voices when they are sort of "moderato," which is to say about 9 voices * 4 instruments per instance in the woodwinds and brass).

I've also got mod wheel happening, so I am moving through dynamic layers too.

Studio One (updated today).
Kontakt only (updated today).

With all this happening and the music playing very quickly, I am at around 50% CPU when using 128 and 256 buffer. I noticed having low latency on when a track was enabled was producing clipping and glitches. So I changed the Dropout Protection from Medium to High (4 out of 5 levels).

(I didn't turn Rosetta off or on, but I migrated from an M1 that expected to be able to use it; so it might be on. (?) I still need to learn out how to tell what is using it vs not using it.)

~

I stopped playback when the screenshot below was taken, but the history is in green (and red) for the cores. The Graphics history (lower right in blue) rose when I started recording a video of the screen, but it's not worth posting the video.

19 "tracks" but 60 "instruments" and under 1000MB "RAM" (yes super low RAM) with really fast playing and spikes of as many as 60 voices per "track" ...:





S1's Performance Monitor WHILE PLAYING looks like:






All in all in the first couple hours, I'm a little underwhelmed because I'm _guessing_ I will be able to push this to its limit pretty easily if I'm not conservative with system resources — and assuming I continue to use S1 instead of switching to something extremely efficient like Reaper (unlikely).

Kontakt preload buffer sizes — I changed them a lot because my external drive did seem to be getting a little slow at 6kB in some of the Kontakt instances (the disk % were hitting red momentarily) so I tried them at 60kB too. But it did not affect the main results above. And if drive speed were to become a problem, I could easily move my favorite samples onto the internal drive if absolutely necessary. Or begin pulling from a faster external RAID, or try other options.

But then again, my previous tests were not too promising at the beginning and got progressively more optimistically last time I tried testing the limits of an M1 (the MBP with 16GB last year).

THE GOOD NEWS

The load was evenly distributed across all cores, which is great.
Kontakt (blank, nothing loaded) pops into a track in a snap, which is amazing. Usually I have to wait for it.
Lots of "just using the computer" things are so, so, so snappy it's a relief to use and I usually feel like the computer is waiting for me rather than vice versa.


----------



## NoTBaTMaN

From the results of previous benchmarks I think it‘s clear that lower buffer sizes result in bad scaling. All M1 processors have the same single-core performance. Increasing the buffer size should show the true power of the M1 Max.


----------



## khollister

mscp said:


> Have you done the ilok conversion yet?


Yes, hence the VSL Helper thing


----------



## khollister

Soundbed said:


> All in all in the first couple hours, I'm a little underwhelmed because I'm _guessing_ I will be able to push this to its limit pretty easily if I'm not conservative with system resources — and assuming I continue to use S1 instead of switching to something extremely efficient like Reaper (unlikely).
> 
> Kontakt preload buffer sizes — I changed them a lot because my external drive did seem to be getting a little slow at 6kB in some of the Kontakt instances (the disk % were hitting red momentarily) so I tried them at 60kB too. But it did not affect the main results above. And if drive speed were to become a problem, I could easily move my favorite samples onto the internal drive if absolutely necessary. Or begin pulling from a faster external RAID, or try other options.
> 
> But then again, my previous tests were not too promising at the beginning and got progressively more optimistically last time I tried testing the limits of an M1 (the MBP with 16GB last year).
> 
> THE GOOD NEWS
> 
> The load was evenly distributed across all cores, which is great.
> Kontakt (blank, nothing loaded) pops into a track in a snap, which is amazing. Usually I have to wait for it.
> Lots of "just using the computer" things are so, so, so snappy it's a relief to use and I usually feel like the computer is waiting for me rather than vice versa.


Based on my limited testing, both Logic and Cubase yield much better results as far as CPU use on the M1's than Studio One. I know S1 has some very enthusiastic supporters here, but my limited experience is underwhelming. Never mind the complete showstopper of my failure to get Pipeline XT to work with either my H9000 or the virtual channels in my Apollo X8.

I also have consistently gotten worse results trying to load multiple instruments into single Kontakt or OPUS instances than using more instances with 1 instrument per. This is in both Logic and Cubase.


----------



## Soundbed

NoTBaTMaN said:


> From the results of previous benchmarks I think it‘s clear that lower buffer sizes result in bad scaling. All M1 processors have the same single-core performance. Increasing the buffer size should show the true power of the M1 Max.


Which buffer are you talking about? The DAW’s audio interface buffer? Kontak’s preload buffer?

Sorry, I missed whatever benchmarks you’re referencing. 



khollister said:


> Based on my limited testing, both Logic and Cubase yield much better results as far as CPU use on the M1's than Studio One. I know S1 has some very enthusiastic supporters here, but my limited experience is underwhelming.
> 
> I also have consistently gotten worse results trying to load multiple instruments into single Kontakt or OPUS instances than using more instances with 1 instrument per. This is in both Logic and Cubase.


Interesting. I’m not likely to buy Logic any time soon. I have a copy of Cubase AI that I could try installing. (But … I don’t picture myself buying Cubase, either.) I’d probably try Reaper next, if it comes to it.


----------



## NoTBaTMaN

Soundbed said:


> Which buffer are you talking about? The DAW’s audio interface buffer? Kontak’s preload buffer?
> 
> Sorry, I missed whatever benchmarks you’re referencing.
> 
> 
> Interesting. I’m not likely to buy Logic any time soon. I have a copy of Cubase AI that I could try installing. (But … I don’t picture myself buying Cubase, either.) I’d probably try Reaper next, if it comes to it.


I'm talking about the DAW / audio interface buffer size. 
The benchmarks where on Windows machines though, still I you should be able to reduce the CPU load by using 256 or 512 samples, for not that much more latency you might get a lot more polyphony.
Depending on what you are doing, I'd go straight to 2048 samples buffer size (be careful when exporting with 2048 though, it can result in less precise automation)


----------



## Electric Moss

As far as I can gather, he’s got the M1 Max/64 GB ram MBP. Hoping the performance would at least be the same with that configuration of the Studio.


----------



## mscp

khollister said:


> Yes, hence the VSL Helper thing


I'm converting mine to ilok now.


----------



## mscp

Electric Moss said:


> As far as I can gather, he’s got the M1 Max/64 GB ram MBP. Hoping the performance would at least be the same with that configuration of the Studio.


It is.


----------



## chomeaso

NoTBaTMaN said:


> From the results of previous benchmarks I think it‘s clear that lower buffer sizes result in bad scaling. All M1 processors have the same single-core performance. Increasing the buffer size should show the true power of the M1 Max.


Most mixing works might benefit from this
but in working with low buffer setting and writing music, playing notes with midi-keyboard kind of situation, I guess it's ever so slightly disappointing.
If only apple would allow single core to go up more than 3.2 ghz....... I mean there are enough headroom for mac studio at least. Why not?


----------



## Jett Hitt

Over the years, I have played with Reaper, Cubase, Studio One, and Logic. I used to be strictly a Cubase user, but I had a lot of crashes. Finally, I switched over to Logic, and the crashing more or less stopped. There were things I liked about all of the DAWs, but I like stability above all else. I am still on Logic 10.5.1 (until later today), but it has been rock solid for me. At the end of the day, I decided that I am a Mac user, and Logic is made for the Mac by the people who make the Mac. When you consider the initial pricetag combined with seemingly endless free updates, I just don't think that, for a Mac user, anything else makes much sense. I admit, however, that it was very difficult to pry me away from Cubase in the beginning, and I did it by forcing myself to use Logic for 30 days. I never went back.


----------



## Soundbed

Alright let me bounce some ideas off y'all. K?

Or ... should I move this into a new thread?

~

For a while I've been thinking that the question we should all be asking isn't "how many tracks can my ______[insert computer here] ______ get?"

Because there's way too many variables in what could constitute "a track".

I mean, I might be able to bring a computer to its knees with 1 "track," if I do certain things in that "track".

Right?

Instead, the question we should almost always be asking is; "how can I get the most out of my machine?"

Thoughts?

*—*—*—*—*—*—*—*—*—*—*—*—

With that in mind, I've been thinking about reducing variables in order to get the most out of my Mac Studio.

Things I want to try eliminating in my initial tests, because they introduce extra variables:

VEP (because not everyone has it or will use it)
More than one sampler per session (e.g., evaluate only one sampler per session like Kontakt, Opus, Vienna Synchron, SINE ... all would be tested in different sessions to begin)
Repeated notes from the same sampler & instrument exactly duplicated across multiple "tracks" (because duplicated tracks pull the same notes from RAM, usually, AND it's not the way we usually orchestrate due to potential phasing concerns, etc.)
Mixing plugins like buss compressors, eq & reverb (because we are primarily creating the source instrument sounds from samples, and can mix in a separate session after an audio bounce — a recommended workflow, by some)
"Synths" (because. ) 
The above probably make a fair amount of sense, to get going.

Anything else "big" to eliminate?

Here's a few things that come to mind that are a little more dicey to initially _exclude_... for the purpose of reducing variables:

External drives (?!?!? ... yes, I am thinking of starting with ONLY testing on the internal drive, even though my personal approach is almost exclusively external drives. This eliminates one of the most critical variables ... but might be a little controversial...?)
DAW-specific features (i.e., test only things that can be exported in MIDI — this will probably cause consternation for those who have come to rely upon DAW-specific articulation switching features, but I think it could help if a group wants to build cross-platform and cross-DAW interchangeable, "benchmarking" test files)

_Combining_ legato with non-legato articulations in a pure "for testing purposes" benchmark-y type of session ... (because plenty of legato scripting gets significantly more resource intensive versus non-legato, as I understand ... I could be overthinking it. But voice count increases quickly, and the sampler starts doing a lot of crossfading and calculations about which legato to use based on controller input, and needs plenty of samples on hand to handle "fingered" versus "bow change" — even though these terms are slightly inaccurate and a byproduct of sampling, yadda, yadda)
Percussion (because even though the samples are often long, they typically represent the simplest form of sampling; which is basic audio playback, with maybe a little pitch shifting and amplitude enveloping. Maybe the exception is "rolled" or tremolo patches with mod wheel dynamics?)
Combining too many sample makers' products in a "testing" session ... (because different companies make products that stress the system at significantly different levels, with default settings. And example would be a session with only Cinematic Studio Strings, Brass, Woodwinds might be one session whereas only Spitfire Studio Strings, Brass, Woodwinds would be another session)
Combining packages from vastly different "eras" (e.g., different decades) — (because long ago in the days when we all wore fur and carried clubs and gathered seeds and berries, RAM was more precious and the packages were extremely "light" on resources. More recent products sometimes stress a "track" much more significantly)
"Excessive" CC data (which would need to be defined)
Thoughts?

Finally, I am committed to including the following from the very beginning, even though these introduce variables, because I consider them more or less essential to the craft and the task of making the most of our rigs:

Varying velocities to trigger different dynamics levels and / or using mod wheel
At least some Expression and other "basic" CC controls like vibrato or sustain pedal or whatever, without going overboard (to be defined)
"Fast" notes sometimes, and "Slow" notes other times, as in notes that transition from pitch to pitch more slowly (whatever the bpm) — to check them independently
Playing around with preload buffer sizes, interface buffer sizes, background applications, internet connections, backup system settings and anything else that might cause system interruptions or slowdowns.
~~

If I'm on the "wrong track" for too many of you, we can adjust.

But if there is some consensus, we should be able to export MIDI files (and session files when testing the same DAW) and try the same "sessions" across a few systems. Of course no one needs to participate, but it makes more sense to me to arrive at a sort of methodology first, so enough people feel the test might actually measure something more concrete than "yes but how many tracks?"

tl;dr — I'm hoping to move toward answers that help with, "ok, so, how do I get more 'tracks' on my current system?" [whatever the system]


----------



## el-bo

Soundbed said:


> External drives (?!?!? ... yes, I am thinking of starting with ONLY testing on the internal drive, even though my personal approach is almost exclusively external drives. This eliminates one of the most critical variables ... but might be a little controversial...?)


I think it's a good idea to go from the internal. Knowing what the processor and RAM can do is important. Not only will you be setting a benchmark by which varied external solutions can then be compared, but people will be able to use this information to decide how much to (or not) lay down for internal space, at that initial point of purchase.

My 0.002


----------



## Jett Hitt

Soundbed said:


> Alright let me bounce some ideas off y'all. K?
> 
> Or ... should I move this into a new thread?
> 
> ~
> 
> For a while I've been thinking that the question we should all be asking isn't "how many tracks can my ______[insert computer here] ______ get?"
> 
> Because there's way too many variables in what could constitute "a track".
> 
> I mean, I might be able to bring a computer to its knees with 1 "track," if I do certain things in that "track".
> 
> Right?
> 
> Instead, the question we should almost always be asking is; "how can I get the most out of my machine?"
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> *—*—*—*—*—*—*—*—*—*—*—*—
> 
> With that in mind, I've been thinking about reducing variables in order to get the most out of my Mac Studio.
> 
> Things I want to try eliminating in my initial tests, because they introduce extra variables:
> 
> VEP (because not everyone has it or will use it)
> More than one sampler per session (e.g., evaluate only one sampler per session like Kontakt, Opus, Vienna Synchron, SINE ... all would be tested in different sessions to begin)
> Repeated notes from the same sampler & instrument exactly duplicated across multiple "tracks" (because duplicated tracks pull the same notes from RAM, usually, AND it's not the way we usually orchestrate due to potential phasing concerns, etc.)
> Mixing plugins like buss compressors, eq & reverb (because we are primarily creating the source instrument sounds from samples, and can mix in a separate session after an audio bounce — a recommended workflow, by some)
> "Synths" (because. )
> The above probably make a fair amount of sense, to get going.
> 
> Anything else "big" to eliminate?
> 
> Here's a few things that come to mind that are a little more dicey to initially _exclude_... for the purpose of reducing variables:
> 
> External drives (?!?!? ... yes, I am thinking of starting with ONLY testing on the internal drive, even though my personal approach is almost exclusively external drives. This eliminates one of the most critical variables ... but might be a little controversial...?)
> DAW-specific features (i.e., test only things that can be exported in MIDI — this will probably cause consternation for those who have come to rely upon DAW-specific articulation switching features, but I think it could help if a group wants to build cross-platform and cross-DAW interchangeable, "benchmarking" test files)
> _Combining_ legato with non-legato articulations in a pure "for testing purposes" benchmark-y type of session ... (because plenty of legato scripting gets significantly more resource intensive versus non-legato, as I understand ... I could be overthinking it. But voice count increases quickly, and the sampler starts doing a lot of crossfading and calculations about which legato to use based on controller input, and needs plenty of samples on hand to handle "fingered" versus "bow change" — even though these terms are slightly inaccurate and a byproduct of sampling, yadda, yadda)
> Percussion (because even though the samples are often long, they typically represent the simplest form of sampling; which is basic audio playback, with maybe a little pitch shifting and amplitude enveloping. Maybe the exception is "rolled" or tremolo patches with mod wheel dynamics?)
> Combining too many sample makers' products in a "testing" session ... (because different companies make products that stress the system at significantly different levels, with default settings. And example would be a session with only Cinematic Studio Strings, Brass, Woodwinds might be one session whereas only Spitfire Studio Strings, Brass, Woodwinds would be another session)
> Combining packages from vastly different "eras" (e.g., different decades) — (because long ago in the days when we all wore fur and carried clubs and gathered seeds and berries, RAM was more precious and the packages were extremely "light" on resources. More recent products sometimes stress a "track" much more significantly)
> "Excessive" CC data (which would need to be defined)
> Thoughts?
> 
> Finally, I am committed to including the following from the very beginning, even though these introduce variables, because I consider them more or less essential to the craft and the task of making the most of our rigs:
> 
> Varying velocities to trigger different dynamics levels and / or using mod wheel
> At least some Expression and other "basic" CC controls like vibrato or sustain pedal or whatever, without going overboard (to be defined)
> "Fast" notes sometimes, and "Slow" notes other times, as in notes that transition from pitch to pitch more slowly (whatever the bpm) — to check them independently
> Playing around with preload buffer sizes, interface buffer sizes, background applications, internet connections, backup system settings and anything else that might cause system interruptions or slowdowns.
> ~~
> 
> If I'm on the "wrong track" for too many of you, we can adjust.
> 
> But if there is some consensus, we should be able to export MIDI files (and session files when testing the same DAW) and try the same "sessions" across a few systems. Of course no one needs to participate, but it makes more sense to me to arrive at a sort of methodology first, so enough people feel the test might actually measure something more concrete than "yes but how many tracks?"
> 
> tl;dr — I'm hoping to move toward answers that help with, "ok, so, how do I get more 'tracks' on my current system?" [whatever the system]


I think you're spot on. There are so many variables, and no two of us operate the same way. I will give some reports here eventually, but it will take me days to set up because of my gerbil powered internet. I am looking forward to anything you have to report. I am expecting this thing to be a rocket launcher compared to my old 5,1, and you can bet I'll be howling if it isn't.


----------



## Vik

X


Soundbed said:


> For a while I've been thinking that the question we should all be asking isn't "how many tracks can my ______[insert computer here] ______ get?"
> 
> Because there's way too many variables in what could constitute "a track".
> 
> I mean, I might be able to bring a computer to its knees with 1 "track," if I do certain things in that "track".


'How many tracks' may provide very useful info, IMO, if we remember that those tracks are meant as a benchmarking tool only. In other words: if you have lots of more or less identical tracks with, say, a major scale played up/down with a monophonic legato patch, and use that method across several computers, it will be easy to compare how well computer A is doing compared with computer B (if done right). 
At the same time, it's important to remember that such a benchmarking process, if done with one or two automation lanes won't give you a estimate about how many real life tracks you'll get on the same computer. Why? Because in most/all RL projects, there are some tracks with few notes, sometimes some bars are completely empty, they aren't all legato tracks and so on. 

This means that if you can get up to 40 tracks, reliably, in the benchmark project you'll get a lot more tracks in a real life project. To create benchmark tracks that are 'demanding' will still be a big time saver. 

Also: if you'd create a more realistic project, with some legato tracks, some short note tracks, some notes with very few notes in and so on, it will be difficult to give each of these benchmarks a specific 'score' eg. 181 because this setup can run 181 benchmark tracks. That's why I think it's easier to use the benchmark approach, and just make sure those you share the resulting score/track count with know that this result is based on tracks than in average a more demanding than real life project are.


----------



## clonewar

Soundbed said:


> Alright let me bounce some ideas off y'all. K?
> 
> Or ... should I move this into a new thread?
> 
> ~
> 
> For a while I've been thinking that the question we should all be asking isn't "how many tracks can my ______[insert computer here] ______ get?"
> 
> Because there's way too many variables in what could constitute "a track".
> 
> I mean, I might be able to bring a computer to its knees with 1 "track," if I do certain things in that "track".
> 
> Right?
> 
> Instead, the question we should almost always be asking is; "how can I get the most out of my machine?"
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> *—*—*—*—*—*—*—*—*—*—*—*—
> 
> With that in mind, I've been thinking about reducing variables in order to get the most out of my Mac Studio.
> 
> Things I want to try eliminating in my initial tests, because they introduce extra variables:
> 
> VEP (because not everyone has it or will use it)
> More than one sampler per session (e.g., evaluate only one sampler per session like Kontakt, Opus, Vienna Synchron, SINE ... all would be tested in different sessions to begin)
> Repeated notes from the same sampler & instrument exactly duplicated across multiple "tracks" (because duplicated tracks pull the same notes from RAM, usually, AND it's not the way we usually orchestrate due to potential phasing concerns, etc.)
> Mixing plugins like buss compressors, eq & reverb (because we are primarily creating the source instrument sounds from samples, and can mix in a separate session after an audio bounce — a recommended workflow, by some)
> "Synths" (because. )
> The above probably make a fair amount of sense, to get going.
> 
> Anything else "big" to eliminate?
> 
> Here's a few things that come to mind that are a little more dicey to initially _exclude_... for the purpose of reducing variables:
> 
> External drives (?!?!? ... yes, I am thinking of starting with ONLY testing on the internal drive, even though my personal approach is almost exclusively external drives. This eliminates one of the most critical variables ... but might be a little controversial...?)
> DAW-specific features (i.e., test only things that can be exported in MIDI — this will probably cause consternation for those who have come to rely upon DAW-specific articulation switching features, but I think it could help if a group wants to build cross-platform and cross-DAW interchangeable, "benchmarking" test files)
> _Combining_ legato with non-legato articulations in a pure "for testing purposes" benchmark-y type of session ... (because plenty of legato scripting gets significantly more resource intensive versus non-legato, as I understand ... I could be overthinking it. But voice count increases quickly, and the sampler starts doing a lot of crossfading and calculations about which legato to use based on controller input, and needs plenty of samples on hand to handle "fingered" versus "bow change" — even though these terms are slightly inaccurate and a byproduct of sampling, yadda, yadda)
> Percussion (because even though the samples are often long, they typically represent the simplest form of sampling; which is basic audio playback, with maybe a little pitch shifting and amplitude enveloping. Maybe the exception is "rolled" or tremolo patches with mod wheel dynamics?)
> Combining too many sample makers' products in a "testing" session ... (because different companies make products that stress the system at significantly different levels, with default settings. And example would be a session with only Cinematic Studio Strings, Brass, Woodwinds might be one session whereas only Spitfire Studio Strings, Brass, Woodwinds would be another session)
> Combining packages from vastly different "eras" (e.g., different decades) — (because long ago in the days when we all wore fur and carried clubs and gathered seeds and berries, RAM was more precious and the packages were extremely "light" on resources. More recent products sometimes stress a "track" much more significantly)
> "Excessive" CC data (which would need to be defined)
> Thoughts?
> 
> Finally, I am committed to including the following from the very beginning, even though these introduce variables, because I consider them more or less essential to the craft and the task of making the most of our rigs:
> 
> Varying velocities to trigger different dynamics levels and / or using mod wheel
> At least some Expression and other "basic" CC controls like vibrato or sustain pedal or whatever, without going overboard (to be defined)
> "Fast" notes sometimes, and "Slow" notes other times, as in notes that transition from pitch to pitch more slowly (whatever the bpm) — to check them independently
> Playing around with preload buffer sizes, interface buffer sizes, background applications, internet connections, backup system settings and anything else that might cause system interruptions or slowdowns.
> ~~
> 
> If I'm on the "wrong track" for too many of you, we can adjust.
> 
> But if there is some consensus, we should be able to export MIDI files (and session files when testing the same DAW) and try the same "sessions" across a few systems. Of course no one needs to participate, but it makes more sense to me to arrive at a sort of methodology first, so enough people feel the test might actually measure something more concrete than "yes but how many tracks?"
> 
> tl;dr — I'm hoping to move toward answers that help with, "ok, so, how do I get more 'tracks' on my current system?" [whatever the system]


I appreciate you giving some thought to these tests! Personally, I'd like to see tests with mixed samplers/instruments/developers, as it would be more representative of real-world usage. Maybe in some follow-up tests? Also, I'd rather see combined legato and non-legato articulations in the tests, again to get closer to real-world usage. 

You mentioned eliminating external drives, which would set a baseline because there can be so much variation system to system with different drives, enclosures, etc. But, if you have any external drives (or will be getting any), it would be really nice if you could duplicate some of your tests for internal and external drives to show the differences (if any). I'm on the fence with the Studio and one of the big questions/issues for me is to max out the internal storage (which I'd rather not do because of the cost and the fact that I've already invested in fast NVMe drives).


----------



## jcrosby

Soundbed said:


> Alright let me bounce some ideas off y'all. K?
> 
> Or ... should I move this into a new thread?
> 
> ~
> 
> For a while I've been thinking that the question we should all be asking isn't "how many tracks can my ______[insert computer here] ______ get?"
> 
> Because there's way too many variables in what could constitute "a track".
> 
> I mean, I might be able to bring a computer to its knees with 1 "track," if I do certain things in that "track".
> 
> Right?
> 
> Instead, the question we should almost always be asking is; "how can I get the most out of my machine?"
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> *—*—*—*—*—*—*—*—*—*—*—*—
> 
> With that in mind, I've been thinking about reducing variables in order to get the most out of my Mac Studio.
> 
> Things I want to try eliminating in my initial tests, because they introduce extra variables:
> 
> VEP (because not everyone has it or will use it)
> More than one sampler per session (e.g., evaluate only one sampler per session like Kontakt, Opus, Vienna Synchron, SINE ... all would be tested in different sessions to begin)
> Repeated notes from the same sampler & instrument exactly duplicated across multiple "tracks" (because duplicated tracks pull the same notes from RAM, usually, AND it's not the way we usually orchestrate due to potential phasing concerns, etc.)
> Mixing plugins like buss compressors, eq & reverb (because we are primarily creating the source instrument sounds from samples, and can mix in a separate session after an audio bounce — a recommended workflow, by some)
> "Synths" (because. )
> The above probably make a fair amount of sense, to get going.
> 
> Anything else "big" to eliminate?
> 
> Here's a few things that come to mind that are a little more dicey to initially _exclude_... for the purpose of reducing variables:
> 
> External drives (?!?!? ... yes, I am thinking of starting with ONLY testing on the internal drive, even though my personal approach is almost exclusively external drives. This eliminates one of the most critical variables ... but might be a little controversial...?)
> DAW-specific features (i.e., test only things that can be exported in MIDI — this will probably cause consternation for those who have come to rely upon DAW-specific articulation switching features, but I think it could help if a group wants to build cross-platform and cross-DAW interchangeable, "benchmarking" test files)
> _Combining_ legato with non-legato articulations in a pure "for testing purposes" benchmark-y type of session ... (because plenty of legato scripting gets significantly more resource intensive versus non-legato, as I understand ... I could be overthinking it. But voice count increases quickly, and the sampler starts doing a lot of crossfading and calculations about which legato to use based on controller input, and needs plenty of samples on hand to handle "fingered" versus "bow change" — even though these terms are slightly inaccurate and a byproduct of sampling, yadda, yadda)
> Percussion (because even though the samples are often long, they typically represent the simplest form of sampling; which is basic audio playback, with maybe a little pitch shifting and amplitude enveloping. Maybe the exception is "rolled" or tremolo patches with mod wheel dynamics?)
> Combining too many sample makers' products in a "testing" session ... (because different companies make products that stress the system at significantly different levels, with default settings. And example would be a session with only Cinematic Studio Strings, Brass, Woodwinds might be one session whereas only Spitfire Studio Strings, Brass, Woodwinds would be another session)
> Combining packages from vastly different "eras" (e.g., different decades) — (because long ago in the days when we all wore fur and carried clubs and gathered seeds and berries, RAM was more precious and the packages were extremely "light" on resources. More recent products sometimes stress a "track" much more significantly)
> "Excessive" CC data (which would need to be defined)
> Thoughts?
> 
> Finally, I am committed to including the following from the very beginning, even though these introduce variables, because I consider them more or less essential to the craft and the task of making the most of our rigs:
> 
> Varying velocities to trigger different dynamics levels and / or using mod wheel
> At least some Expression and other "basic" CC controls like vibrato or sustain pedal or whatever, without going overboard (to be defined)
> "Fast" notes sometimes, and "Slow" notes other times, as in notes that transition from pitch to pitch more slowly (whatever the bpm) — to check them independently
> Playing around with preload buffer sizes, interface buffer sizes, background applications, internet connections, backup system settings and anything else that might cause system interruptions or slowdowns.
> ~~
> 
> If I'm on the "wrong track" for too many of you, we can adjust.
> 
> But if there is some consensus, we should be able to export MIDI files (and session files when testing the same DAW) and try the same "sessions" across a few systems. Of course no one needs to participate, but it makes more sense to me to arrive at a sort of methodology first, so enough people feel the test might actually measure something more concrete than "yes but how many tracks?"
> 
> tl;dr — I'm hoping to move toward answers that help with, "ok, so, how do I get more 'tracks' on my current system?" [whatever the system]


All sounds good. A benchmark should be informative and nothing more, the less sexy and more analytical the better.... (E.g. removing audio plugins, legato vs non-legato, VEP, external drives, etc from the equation seems more or less mandatory for the most _scientific_ cross-comparison.)

The one thing I'd recommend is using the machines built-in audio as a baseline test. Other interfaces could/should be used as a secondary comparison, but given that some interfaces perform better at lower latencies than others, and the range of interfaces people use is vast, combined with the likelihood that the built-in audio is likely to perform similarly regardless of system... Using the built-in audio to develop a sort of baseline version of each test means that results are truly apples to apples and the same test should show near identical results across similar machines...

This might potentially reveal additional useful information... Especially regarding interfaces that may rely on some kind of driver/software layer... Some drivers are bound to be less efficient than others so this would potentially remove that variable from the equation. It might also reveal other useful information like just how _optimized for Apple Silicone_ one manufacturer might be compared to another...


----------



## colony nofi

Soundbed said:


> Alright let me bounce some ideas off y'all. K?
> 
> Or ... should I move this into a new thread?
> 
> ~
> 
> For a while I've been thinking that the question we should all be asking isn't "how many tracks can my ______[insert computer here] ______ get?"
> 
> Because there's way too many variables in what could constitute "a track".
> 
> I mean, I might be able to bring a computer to its knees with 1 "track," if I do certain things in that "track".
> 
> Right?
> 
> Instead, the question we should almost always be asking is; "how can I get the most out of my machine?"
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> *—*—*—*—*—*—*—*—*—*—*—*—
> 
> tl;dr — I'm hoping to move toward answers that help with, "ok, so, how do I get more 'tracks' on my current system?" [whatever the system]


I would say you are VERY much on the right track, and there's a lot of similarities between your thinking and the internal benchmark sessions we have created for qualifying computers for different tasks at our studios.

The conceptual approach rather than simply going "how many of x" when that's not necessarily answering a useful question.

My advice is to simplify further.

The time suck for even adding just a single extra variable is enormous.

What this MIGHT mean though is you do end up going back to a "how many of x" type question, if only because it is the basis of quantifiable research. But making sure you are answering the correct question feels like a very good positioning to start from.

Some things that we have found.

If you truly want to know what is actually going on - especially within Kontakt type benchmarks - you will need to make your own Kontakt instruments. These do not have to sound good. But, what they do is allow you to know the size of individual samples, and how this effects results. It means you can even create slightly different instruments to test different things. 

Going into mod wheel / CC territory is not necessary from our experience. This type of thing can be more easily simulated just by putting in different velocity notes into a carefully designed Kontakt patch. Again - control as many parameters as possible. Unless you know exactly what is going on under the hood of the patches you are using, adding CC data isn't actually giving you any better results or answering any direct questions. In other words, you are changing "something" and "something else" is happening. But that "something else" may well be very different for different libraries, and therefore will change results through your testing template depending on what patches you are using. 

Simplify. Everything else will come out in the wash later. And you can KNOW how certain libraries will behave based on the real knowledge you have gained by controlling the variables.

For our benchmarks, I've started with sine tones. The sound is not important. But we have patches that use very short tones, one per note. Others have patches that use very long tones, one per note. Then we have more complex patches with different samples for all 127 velocities. short and long. And still others that play back two or more samples at the same time for each note (to simulate surround use / multi-mic use)

Creating the patches doesn't take as long as you would think. 

Then, its just a matter of making a bunch of sessions that use these patches in slightly different ways, where you can adjust what is going on with changing ONE THING AT A TIME .

And generally, we use the paradigm of turning tracks on (using disabled tracks) until breaking point or increasing something over time.

We have things like : Tempo changes every bar (but never ramps, as that just shows Kontakt's poor handling of tempo ramps) that increase (no point in decreasing - I thought there would be but it never gave any meaningful data). Increasing number of notes playing back at once. This gives different results to just turning on more tracks of the same data. 

Each test ends up telling you something different - but when deciding on the SINGLE thing each test is changing, make sure you understand what it is telling you first, and if you need to know it. There are surprisingly massive numbers of things that you can change. Most are not super useful in the end.

And on one final note : I personally think plugins like compression, eq and reverb are very useful. I think the majority of composers now understand the need to send mockups to client quickly without having to spend hours mixing. Having things setup in a way that allows this means that you will have a bunch of reverbs and other mixing plugs, as well as (usually) quite a complex routing system in place, and that in my opinion needs to be included in the test. A DAW actually acts quite differently in regards to using different cores when you start doing things like this. Only 2 or 3 years ago did I figure out that HOW one sets up routing impacts massively the time it can take cubase to render out a session. I'm a big fan of templating out the routing system - and having something that can be used for most projects - even though I do not run massive instrument track templates at all. YMMV of course. So much ends up being personal right?

While I cannot share our internal patches that have included other people scripting / spending money on IP and programming, I do think that there is a place to potentially create a set of benchmarking tools for konakt. I wonder if there is a sample library developer who may wish to collaborate with the community to create a no/low cost library just for benchmarking. Something for $9 or $19 would likely cover costs of development over time. I'm happy to give some time towards such a project, but could not commit to the whole thing. Someone with experience in hosting the instruments to sell/give away as well.

@Spitfire Team, @Cinesamples, @OrchestralTools, @slateandash, @StrezovSampling or any others here - anyone interested?


----------



## Vik

colony nofi said:


> If you truly want to know what is actually going on - especially within Kontakt type benchmarks - you will need to make your own Kontakt instruments. These do not have to sound good. But, what they do is allow you to know the size of individual samples, and how this effects results. It means you can even create slightly different instruments to test different things.
> 
> Going into mod wheel / CC territory is not necessary from our experience.


Going into modwheel/CC territory is definitely needed if the goal is to find out how these Macs behave with orchestral libraries, because pretty much every demo and walkthrough made by any of the orchestral library makers always contain one or two CC parameters (usually dynamics + vibrato, or dynamics + expression).

I also disagree with your statement about needing to make your own Kontakt instruments (and the one about starting with sine tones). We still haven't seen one single benchmark video demonstrating how the various M1 Macs work with professional orchestral libraries, and there won't be any for a while if M1 owners assume that they also need to make their own Kontakt instruments.

My advice would be to ignore sine tones and forget about making your own libraries, just use one/some of the most used libraries out there like Berlin Strings, MSS, SSS, SCS, CSS or something similar. 

Most of all I think it's important to not worry too much about about how such benchmarks videos or references are created, just do whatever you want and let's know what you did (and ignore all the ideas about how these benchmarks should be made, including my own).


----------



## colony nofi

Vik said:


> Going into modwheel/CC territory is definitely needed if the goal is to find out how these Macs behave with orchestral libraries, because pretty much every demo and walkthrough made by any of the orchestral library makers always contain one or two CC parameters (usually dynamics + vibrato, or dynamics + expression).
> 
> I also disagree with your statement about needing to make your own Kontakt instruments (and the one about starting with sine tones). We still haven't seen one single benchmark video demonstrating how the various M1 Macs work with professional orchestral libraries, and there won't be any for a while if M1 owners assume that they also need to make their own Kontakt instruments.
> 
> My advice would be to ignore sine tones and forget about making your own libraries, just use one/some of the most used libraries out there like Berlin Strings, MSS, SSS, SCS, CSS or something similar.
> 
> Most of all I think it's important to not worry too much about about how such benchmarks videos or references are created, just do whatever you want and let's know what you did (and ignore all the ideas about how these benchmarks should be made, including my own).


I feel like you have missed my point.
You need to know what you are testing in order for results to be meaningful for more people.
I'm talking about being able to *know* more about what is going on.
In other words. Different libraries do different things under the hood in regards to CC and Vib/Non Vib. So testing one does not mean that it will behave the same with a different library.

Do we even know that this has any significant impact on performance? (hint : we do - I've been involved in the tests!)

It all really does just come down to voice counts. Different libs use different numbers of voices in order to do vib/non lib for example. And others use different crossfading methods (among other things) for changing between dynamic layers for CC count. 

So - if we design the benchmarks around voices, we can better understand what the machine is capable of. 

For commercial libs, some will be more performant based on how they use resources. Others use far more resources. To know how useful a system is we need to be able to compare to other systems. 

And then we need to be able to run a bench between say a lib that you have and a more synthetic benchmark in order to know how it may manifest for an individuals system.

This stuff is complex to simplify. It is hard to get truly meaningful results. I have spent thousands of hours thinking about, testing, rebuilding, getting stuff very very wrong. The DAW bench guys have spent 10's of 1000's of hours figuring many of these things out as well. And a pitfall that keeps coming up is being able to get meaningful results that can translate to different people and slightly different working scenarios.

Excuse my ramble . I understand your thoughts - and I do see a way through by using a single, popular library. It lowers the number of data-points possible (others who wish to run the benchmark won't be able to unless they have the library) and inter-library results may not be compatible (and can be difficult to correct.) It *is* quick and dirty though, and maybe that is all that folk require. It might be difficult to work out if the results are indeed meaningful though. Especially given how wildly different folk's workflows are.


----------



## colony nofi

Oh - and I want to be clear that I really didn't intend to come across as being critical. I have a different point of view. I know first hand the rabbit hole that is the world of benchmarking for audio software. There's no need for too many people to spend tonnes of time down that rabbit hole unless they are extremely interested / want to learn more about it. There's many ways to waste a lot of time needlessly. And this world is a massive time suck!

What *DO* we know? Well, there's already some big Hollywood composers using M1Max laptops for massive work. There are ways of making these systems work for folk. One I know is using his LAPTOP in a dock at his incredibly high end studios. A massive touring DJ has replaced 3 separate MBP's on stage with one of the new ones. Different workload sure, but its telling in its own way. 

Some of these folk are lucky enough to have techs that have gone down a bunch of the rabbit holes already. (Some do it themselves!). They have found some pitfalls. Some things that work and some things that don't. With some small modifications to workflows, folk are able to use these systems to amazing effect. I've just sat on the outside hearing some of the stories through a number of professional channels. These machines ARE capable. Lets try figure out HOW capable. There's a tonne of questions I still have. Some will def be answered through our internal benchmarking. Others I suspect may need a slightly different approach. Like I said earlier in this thread, I'm happy to help out for small amounts of time to potentially put something simple together that might give results that are helpful to the types of users who are on this forum. Lets see how things pan out.

(thinking through - It might be so incredibly easy to do the synthetic Kontakt thing to get at least initial datapoints that I might even be able to throw stuff together one night this week. I have an inkling that there's a tonne of stuff that I've done in the past that won't be necessary for the kind of task that we are interested in here)


----------



## Jett Hitt

Well shit, the neighbor asked me to come help give her camel (yes you read that right) some penicillin today, and so I went over to stab the beast with a 20 gauge needle. When I returned, there was a UPS sticker on the door that said they had rescheduled for tomorrow because no one was home.


----------



## clisma

Once again, kindness comes back to bite one in the ass. I’ve seen a lot of this lately. Chin up though, that will make tomorrow’s unboxing that much sweeter!


----------



## Guavadude

Who's using VEP now and getting a Studio? Are you going to still use VEP, move your old rig to being a server or are you trying to ditch the two computer setup and do it all in the DAW now? 

The reason I'm asking is I've struggled forever to get VEP7 to run alongside of Logic on my 6 core 64gb Trashcan. It would just randomly crash when idle. I think I finally stabilized it by replacing some bad ram and dropping the threads per instance down to 2. 

I'm probably going to try to get it all done in Logic but while I'm waiting (until June..ugh) to get the new girl, I may work on a VEP template. Although if it crashes one more time just sitting there, I'm done with it.


----------



## Pier

Jett Hitt said:


> Well shit, the neighbor asked me to come help give her camel (yes you read that right) some penicillin today, and so I went over to stab the beast with a 20 gauge needle. When I returned, there was a UPS sticker on the door that said they had rescheduled for tomorrow because no one was home.


Wait... so the 120 heads of bison were not some metaphor?


----------



## Jett Hitt

Guavadude said:


> Who's using VEP now and getting a Studio? Are you going to still use VEP, move your old rig to being a server or are you trying to ditch the two computer setup and do it all in the DAW now?
> 
> The reason I'm asking is I've struggled forever to get VEP7 to run alongside of Logic on my 6 core 64gb Trashcan. It would just randomly crash when idle. I think I finally stabilized it by replacing some bad ram and dropping the threads per instance down to 2.
> 
> I'm probably going to try to get it all done in Logic but while I'm waiting (until June..ugh) to get the new girl, I may work on a VEP template. Although if it crashes one more time just sitting there, I'm done with it.


The secret to VEP in my experience is to downgrade to version 1056. Nothing newer was stable for me. I have had no issues to speak of since I downgraded.


----------



## Jett Hitt

Pier said:


> Wait... so the 120 heads of bison were not some metaphor?


It really is calving season.


----------



## Monkey Man

Little-known fact:

A bison can breed with a cow. Offspring are called beefalo.

They're essentially the same animal, just like wolves, coyotes, dingos and domestic dogs. It's blondes and brunettes, isolated and inbred, thus accentuating certain characteristics; that's all.


----------



## Vik

colony nofi said:


> I understand your thoughts - and I do see a way through by using a single, popular library


Just to clarify: getting results from people who use a combination of libraries or any of the orchestral libraries would be more useful, imo, than only using a single, popular library IMO, as long as the test is done on an Apple Silicon Mac with at least 32 gb memory (but ideally 64 gb or more). This excludes stuff done with the first M1.


----------



## Loïc D

colony nofi said:


> Oh - and I want to be clear that I really didn't intend to come across as being critical. I have a different point of view. I know first hand the rabbit hole that is the world of benchmarking for audio software. There's no need for too many people to spend tonnes of time down that rabbit hole unless they are extremely interested / want to learn more about it. There's many ways to waste a lot of time needlessly. And this world is a massive time suck!
> 
> What *DO* we know? Well, there's already some big Hollywood composers using M1Max laptops for massive work. There are ways of making these systems work for folk. One I know is using his LAPTOP in a dock at his incredibly high end studios. A massive touring DJ has replaced 3 separate MBP's on stage with one of the new ones. Different workload sure, but its telling in its own way.
> 
> Some of these folk are lucky enough to have techs that have gone down a bunch of the rabbit holes already. (Some do it themselves!). They have found some pitfalls. Some things that work and some things that don't. With some small modifications to workflows, folk are able to use these systems to amazing effect. I've just sat on the outside hearing some of the stories through a number of professional channels. These machines ARE capable. Lets try figure out HOW capable. There's a tonne of questions I still have. Some will def be answered through our internal benchmarking. Others I suspect may need a slightly different approach. Like I said earlier in this thread, I'm happy to help out for small amounts of time to potentially put something simple together that might give results that are helpful to the types of users who are on this forum. Lets see how things pan out.
> 
> (thinking through - It might be so incredibly easy to do the synthetic Kontakt thing to get at least initial datapoints that I might even be able to throw stuff together one night this week. I have an inkling that there's a tonne of stuff that I've done in the past that won't be necessary for the kind of task that we are interested in here)


This is science ! Now we’re talking.
I don’t see Benchmark tools and real life use cases being opposite, but complimentary to eachother.

First and foremost, there will never be a one-size-fits-all benchmark that will tell you exactly to which extent this or that model of Mac fits your needs.

@colony nofi I am really interested in your Kontakt benchmarking library approach. AFAIK this was never done in the past and this could be a good tool for most developers. 

Very very interesting discussion anyway.


----------



## colony nofi

Vik said:


> Just to clarify: getting results from people who use a combination of libraries or any of the orchestral libraries would be more useful, imo, than only using a single, popular library IMO, as long as the test is done on an Apple Silicon Mac with at least 32 gb memory (but ideally 64 gb or more). This excludes stuff done with the first M1.


I'll agree to disagree - in that I just am not sure that those would be useful metrics.

However, if it will help, send me a project file you would like to test.

I'm sitting on an M1Max 8TB 64GB Ram here at home now. I've got my own babyface plus another couple of focus rite Red8 line interfaces (or internal) that I can test with. Which is closest to your setup?

I have all the orchestral bases covered. I'll take the time to replace with similar if you name the tracks well.

Just let me know exactly what you want tested.

I've also just run one of our own benchmarks on this system for fun in the last hour - and I'm in the middle of trying to recreate something similar that I can put out into the wild for anyone who is interested.

Essentially its just a massive session with multiple copies of the SAME Kontakt library. This lib has only 4 x 20second samples mapped to velocity.

The test session plays them out one voice per 0.5 seconds - adding a voice every 0.5 seconds. Up to 40 voices per track (at which time it just repeats notes)

And it just adds tracks over time

It plays back smoothly on INTERNAL Soundcard under rosetta with 128 tracks - so 5120 voices. The session is actually still a bit too large with too many notes as I've copied a bunch of things from other sessions, and it seriously brings Nuendo to a halt editing wise at that point. (each track has a single midi file that is 4 hours long and has 28800 notes!). I'm going to try cut it down to a more reasonable size.

Ram use is around 12GB on the test. It LOADS no sweat 512 such tracks in around 40GB of ram. But it won't play.

The test is setup so one can tell the failure point - you just need to be patient to figure it out.

Our studios have a similar test session, except each track is a *different* Kontakt lib. (But of course its the same lib, just named different so it can show more about loading speeds. I just don't have time to make that style of thing right now (its painfully slow to setup).

Oh - we run the setup with Kontakt having NO multiprocessing turned on, Nuendo WITH multiprocessor, 256 buffers (but with Asio guard - which is kinda a hard thing to test around but that's another story).


----------



## davidson

Jett Hitt said:


> Well shit, the neighbor asked me to come help give her camel (yes you read that right) some penicillin today, and so I went over to stab the beast with a 20 gauge needle. When I returned, there was a UPS sticker on the door that said they had rescheduled for tomorrow because no one was home.


Just so we're clear, this doesn't mean you win the race, you need to have the unit in your hands.


----------



## colony nofi

Loïc D said:


> This is science ! Now we’re talking.
> I don’t see Benchmark tools and real life use cases being opposite, but complimentary to eachother.
> 
> First and foremost, there will never be a one-size-fits-all benchmark that will tell you exactly to which extent this or that model of Mac fits your needs.
> 
> @colony nofi I am really interested in your Kontakt benchmarking library approach. AFAIK this was never done in the past and this could be a good tool for most developers.
> 
> Very very interesting discussion anyway.


Oh we have many different approaches depending on what is being tested. 

Indeed, pretty much *anything* can kinda be constructed as a benchmark and a data-point, but do it enough and you start to understand the things that are not that important / don't really give you tonnes more information about how your system might run in the real world.

Some of the tests are to do with voices, some to do with audio files (and counts of files in the session as well as numbers of tracks). Others have to do with routing and parallel paths. And others is just straight up CPU stress testing using plugins. Oh, also have a suite of things to help test immersive mixing (which is more to help specify computers when installing into museums or other installations)

But most importantly, each test is simplified right down to the very minimum. The more things put into a test, the less they end up telling you - as you end up needing to figure out individual tests for each variable later. To my mind, it is easier to figure out what you are trying to achieve, write down the variables then test each one as best you can with as little possible interference from others (not always possible of course).


----------



## Alex Fraser

Jett Hitt said:


> Well shit, the neighbor asked me to come help give her camel (yes you read that right) some penicillin today, and so I went over to stab the beast with a 20 gauge needle. When I returned, there was a UPS sticker on the door that said they had rescheduled for tomorrow because no one was home.


Oh Jett...sorry mate! 😅


----------



## colony nofi

So running native cubase just for giggles, I've loaded 32 different custom Kontakt libs onto 32 tracks. Each plays back 40 voices (10 voices each from 4 samples). Each sample is 20 seconds long. Internal Mac sound card.
So 1280 voices.
Buffers at 32
Kontakt Preload at minimum (6k)
Total voices 1280

This is already too many variables for my liking, but its basically showing that basic sample playback is pretty damn good on this machine.

I'm not going to manually load any more Kontakt patches (I have 512 separate patches I could use, but I just can't do the manual labor right now ha!)

But for fun I just duplicated those 32 tracks 4 times (so 128 instances of Kontakt) and its playing back fine 5120 voices at same settings above.




Going further...

Doubling it again?

Yeah it worked a treat. Plays back smooth as butter. But when I went to duplicate all 256 midi parts with 5120 midi notes per part, it kinda locked up. (so trying to duplicate 1.3 million midi notes with a single "command + d")
That'll teach me for taking shortcuts. (Nuendo + cubase have always had some - er - small issues when it comes to sessions with massive numbers of notes - or audio parts even. SLOW DOWNS. As it happens, its playing back fine still, but the program is no longer responding.

I'm still thinking of a useful (but semi-stressful) test I can conjure up that could be used to test these new machines against the intel Macs and also the new intel + AMD PC's specifically for VIControl type users. It needs to balance Ram use and voice numbers and track numbers. It would be good to try get it to fall over by 256 tracks. There's not that many compositions that USE more than that number of tracks.

EDIT : IT DIDN'T CRASH. Turns out it just takes a little time to duplicate that number of midi notes.


----------



## styledelk

I’ll be happy to run tests. I ordered a base Ultra with 128gb and 2tb SSD. Two days ago. 
So three years from now when I receive it, I’ll be happy to make the third video showing sample library performance expectations. 
Of course, I rarely have more than 20 tracks.


----------



## gsilbers

So how long do people think this mac studio will last before an upgrade.

Those of us with the 5,1 Mac Pro are plenty happy since 2009 thanks to expansions.
Although Mac Pro 2019 owners might not be too happy how expensive their system is compared to the studio.

From what I read and what Tim said, 
There is going to be a new Mac Pro intel sometime soon. And this last video for the studio the guy said a m series Mac Pro. (So maybe both?).

Anyways, the lack of expansion makes me think about the ultra at 128gb ram and 2tb storage.
But performance in 2-3 years seems the m2 is gonna probably be twice as fast or soenthing crazy.


----------



## mscp

Guavadude said:


> Who's using VEP now and getting a Studio? Are you going to still use VEP, move your old rig to being a server or are you trying to ditch the two computer setup and do it all in the DAW now?
> 
> The reason I'm asking is I've struggled forever to get VEP7 to run alongside of Logic on my 6 core 64gb Trashcan. It would just randomly crash when idle. I think I finally stabilized it by replacing some bad ram and dropping the threads per instance down to 2.
> 
> I'm probably going to try to get it all done in Logic but while I'm waiting (until June..ugh) to get the new girl, I may work on a VEP template. Although if it crashes one more time just sitting there, I'm done with it.


I won't be using VEP locally until they sort out their M1 compatibility. Right now, VEP does not work as I expect on my M1 Max.


----------



## seclusion3

Load up the master bus on Logic with lotsa plugs, set at their highest settings. It would be nice to have single core utilize all cores once they start getting pushed, set at low latency


----------



## Vik

colony nofi said:


> However, if it will help, send me a project file you would like to test.


Thanks, CN, I'll see what I can come up with, but I can only provide Logic projects – is that OK?


----------



## Soundbed

clonewar said:


> Personally, I'd like to see tests with mixed samplers/instruments/developers, as it would be more representative of real-world usage. Maybe in some follow-up tests? Also, I'd rather see combined legato and non-legato articulations in the tests, again to get closer to real-world usage.


Yeah, in some follow up tests. Adding variables (and getting confusing about what’s getting measured) will be interesting to some but initially I’m trying to establish a sort of “standard” or “baseline” type of experiment.


seclusion3 said:


> Load up the master bus on Logic with lotsa plugs, set at their highest settings. It would be nice to have single core utilize all cores once they start getting pushed, set at low latency


I’ve never understood how this could work.

You’ve got one (stereo) audio channel, the master buss.

It’s processed on one core.

Each plugin needs to process some audio, then send it to the next plugin in series. One by one.

I don’t understand how it could distribute this load to any other cores.

It can only be done within one core, right?


----------



## ckett

OK,

Finally have my Mac Studio Ultra setup. 64GB Ram, 2TB SSD. RME UFX+ Thunderbolt connection

Cubase 12 running natively.
ASIO Guard - Normal
U-He Diva - native

Here are some preliminary test results using U-He Diva. Diva is not running in multi core mode. I can get more instances and voices this way.

Buffer(64) Diva(Great setting) 40 tracks, 8 voices each = 320 total voices
Buffer(64) Diva(Fast setting) 70 tracks, 8 voices each = 560 total voices

CPU temperature never broke 50C. Completely silent.


----------



## Jett Hitt

davidson said:


> Just so we're clear, this doesn't mean you win the race, you need to have the unit in your hands.


Pretty sure that’s a Mac Studio sitting on a John Deere Gator in a field of bison.


----------



## aeliron

Jett Hitt said:


> Well shit, the neighbor asked me to come help give her camel (yes you read that right) some penicillin today, and so I went over to stab the beast with a 20 gauge needle. When I returned, there was a UPS sticker on the door that said they had rescheduled for tomorrow because no one was home.


Delivery services need some kind of auto-notification when they're close by. It's maddening that they don't already, and you have to stay home waiting.


----------



## aeliron

davidson said:


> Just so we're clear, this doesn't mean you win the race, you need to have the unit in your hands.


Wait. No camel exception?


----------



## aeliron

colony nofi said:


> EDIT : IT DIDN'T CRASH. Turns out it just takes a little time to duplicate that number of midi notes.


Rats. So ... it's slow.


----------



## Jett Hitt

aeliron said:


> Delivery services need some kind of auto-notification when they're close by. It's maddening that they don't already, and you have to stay home waiting.


Actually, UPS has an app. When I am expecting a package, the app shows me a map with live updates of the driver's location. I saw him coming today and was able to meet him as I was en route to another pasture. The strange thing was that while they wouldn't deliver the package with no one home yesterday, today he just handed it to me with no signature required.


----------



## HCMarkus

Posted this over at MOTUNation, thought some here might be interested:

Working my way thru plugins on the Mac Studio, I had no luck with Altiverb, Ivory and the Boz Digital Labs Clamp, Stomp and Snap plugins. Everything else, Native or not, worked fine off the bat.

I reached out to Audio ease at about 2:30 AM. I guess my timing was good, 'cause Aram got back to me almost immediately. After some initial; failed troubleshooting, he recommended this:


> - restart the mac (o yes)
> - then go to the applications folder, locate your DP app, hit get info in the finder and tick the box for the option 'open using Rosetta'
> - now run DP, try to use Altiverb, if it works, quit DP
> - then go to the applications folder again, and now turn off (deselect) the option for DP to 'open using Rosetta'.
> - run DP again, Altiverb should still work.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Aram Verwoest
> Audio Ease support
> [email protected]


Worked great, and also fixed Ivory (which failed to pass inspection when DP was running AS-Native). Unfortunately, the Boz Labs VIs didn't;t fare so well. I alerted them to the issue.

Pretty sure this approach has been mentioned here on MOTUNation before, but I figured a reminder wouldn't hurt. Everyone's input has been, and continues to be, appreciated. I did note that DP starts up MUCH more slowly running under Rosetta than when running AS-Native, where it is super quick.

I ran into a Permissions Issue with Omnisphere, maybe because I just copied the libraries to a new drive (as has been warned against), but I was able to get things rolling by granting permissions in the "get info" panel for the data drive.

Running Black Magic Speed Test on the 970 EVO Plus in the Envoy Case reveals speeds pretty much as promised by OWC:

Write: 1140 MB/s
Read 1561 MB/s

Compare to internal SSD (2TB):

Write: (Ranges from) about 3500 to 6371 MB/s
Read: 5322 MB/s

Now THAT's fast!


----------



## rnb_2

HCMarkus said:


> I did note that DP starts up MUCH more slowly running under Rosetta than when running AS-Native, where it is super quick.


That will be the most noticeable on the first run in Rosetta mode - that's when it translates the Intel binary to Apple Silicon code. Later runs will be faster (though probably not as fast as running native), since the translated app is cached for later use.


----------



## jneebz

Think I’m gonna pull the trigger on a Studio Max. Don’t need the Ultra. Not gonna lie though, that thread over at Macrumors about fan noise and possible defects has me a bit concerned but the unit is easily returnable I guess if I experience issues. Appreciate all the posts here….


----------



## rnb_2

gsilbers said:


> So how long do people think this mac studio will last before an upgrade.
> 
> Those of us with the 5,1 Mac Pro are plenty happy since 2009 thanks to expansions.
> Although Mac Pro 2019 owners might not be too happy how expensive their system is compared to the studio.
> 
> From what I read and what Tim said,
> There is going to be a new Mac Pro intel sometime soon. And this last video for the studio the guy said a m series Mac Pro. (So maybe both?).
> 
> Anyways, the lack of expansion makes me think about the ultra at 128gb ram and 2tb storage.
> But performance in 2-3 years seems the m2 is gonna probably be twice as fast or soenthing crazy.


I wouldn't worry too much about M2 - since it will likely be based on the A15 (vs the A14 for the M1), there are unlikely to be more CPU cores, but it will probably have 1-2 more GPU cores on the base chip. From there, we'll see M2 Pro with 6-8P/2E cores and up to 20 GPU cores (on the Pro, assuming they're still binning), and 8P/2E cores + up to 40 GPU cores on the Max.

Each core on the A15 isn't dramatically faster than the A14, so I'd guess ~15% (give or take) overall performance improvement on M2 vs M1 on CPU-heavy tasks, but bigger gains on the GPU side.


----------



## davidson

Jett Hitt said:


> Pretty sure that’s a Mac Studio sitting on a John Deere Gator in a field of bison.


I got mine today too, but as I don't live in Narnia I'll leave the fancy photos to you.


----------



## Nimrod7

Mine arrived also after waiting patiently since Friday. It was was stuck somewhere in Europe.
Countless calls to DHL, talked to a manager and wasted my time, runned to the door every time I heard a doorbell.

It came, I connected the thing, I run the migration assistant, watching it for two hours, installed some licenses that failed, watched it again admiring it that it finally arrived, and shut it down!

I am on my iPad now watching a tutorial on YouTube!
Gas is real…


----------



## KEM

Nimrod7 said:


> Mine arrived also after waiting patiently since Friday. It was was stuck somewhere in Europe.
> Countless calls to DHL, talked to a manager and wasted my time, runned to the door every time I heard a doorbell.
> 
> It came, I connected the thing, I run the migration assistant, watching it for two hours, installed some licenses that failed, watched it again admiring it that it finally arrived, and shut it down!
> 
> I am on my iPad now watching a tutorial on YouTube!
> Gas is real…



Deactivate your licenses before using migration assistant and then reactivate them on the new Mac


----------



## Nimrod7

KEM said:


> Deactivate your licenses before using migration assistant and then reactivate them on the new Mac


Yep that’s what I did. With Waves tho it’s sucks, if the computer fail and you can’t deactivate them you only have 1 reset a a year or something like that. Lucky I didn’t wiped the machine before realizing.


----------



## KEM

Nimrod7 said:


> Yep that’s what I did. With Waves tho it’s sucks, if the computer fail and you can’t deactivate them you only have 1 reset a a year or something like that. Lucky I didn’t wiped the machine before realizing.



Waves had me deactivate mine through Waves Central and it was a bit confusing, Waves sucks in regards to their licensing


----------



## Pier

ckett said:


> OK,
> 
> Finally have my Mac Studio Ultra setup. 64GB Ram, 2TB SSD. RME UFX+ Thunderbolt connection
> 
> Cubase 12 running natively.
> ASIO Guard - Normal
> U-He Diva - native
> 
> Here are some preliminary test results using U-He Diva. Diva is not running in multi core mode. I can get more instances and voices this way.
> 
> Buffer(64) Diva(Great setting) 40 tracks, 8 voices each = 320 total voices
> Buffer(64) Diva(Fast setting) 70 tracks, 8 voices each = 560 total voices
> 
> CPU temperature never broke 50C. Completely silent.


What Diva preset were you using?


----------



## HCMarkus

KEM said:


> Waves had me deactivate mine through Waves Central and it was a bit confusing, Waves sucks in regards to their licensing


I just keep my Waves licenses on a flash drive... it goes where I go, in this case, from the studio to my home, where the new Mac is living until it is fully-operational.


----------



## ckett

Pier said:


> What Diva preset were you using?


Just a basic two VCO string pad patch I made.

Also learned that Cubase 12 was not running in Native Mode. Evidently even though it shows that it is in native mode, you have to do this procedure for it to actually be in native mode.



https://helpcenter.steinberg.de/hc/en-us/articles/4488195658002-Cubase-12-Using-the-native-Apple-silicon-version



After that I was able to get the following running at 128 buffer setting.

Diva (great setting) 52 tracks at 8 voices each = 416 total voices
Diva (fast setting) 88 tracks at 8 voices each = 704 total voices


----------



## robgb

gbar said:


> It's tempting, but 4TB of storage is cutting it too close


Why on earth would you need 4TB of storage. The thing has multiple ports. Buy a bunch of external SSDs (or HDDs for that matter) and save a bunch of money.


----------



## aeliron

davidson said:


> I got mine today too, but as I don't live in Narnia I'll leave the fancy photos to you.


We're ok with photos from Mordor


----------



## davidson

aeliron said:


> We're ok with photos from Mordor


----------



## resonate

colony nofi said:


> A DAW actually acts quite differently in regards to using different cores when you start doing things like this. Only 2 or 3 years ago did I figure out that HOW one sets up routing impacts massively the time it can take cubase to render out a session. I'm a big fan of templating out the routing system - and having something that can be used for most projects - even though I do not run massive instrument track templates at all.


This is very interesting, and a science and an art in itself...would be very interested to hear some more on the subject for sure!


----------



## Jett Hitt

Photos about my Mac Studio are the most fun I have had with it. Now is the terribly mundane task of downloading everything installed on my 5,1. Finding some of this stuff is less than simple. Oh yeah, joy of joys, Logic hangs at startup.


----------



## charlieclouser

robgb said:


> Why on earth would you need 4TB of storage. The thing has multiple ports. Buy a bunch of external SSDs (or HDDs for that matter) and save a bunch of money.


The age-old mantra about Kontakt load times and streaming performance not really benefitting all that much from super-fast drives may be true - but it may not stay that way, and of course Kontakt is not the be-all and end-all of samplers any more. If NI ever re-do that part of their engine, all of a sudden it might make a huge difference, just like it does with Omnisphere or EXS / Logic Sampler.

Comparing my 2013 Mac Pro boot drive (900mb/sec) to an external SATA SSD in a MultiDock (450mb/sec) when loading Omnisphere or EXS stuff, DOES scale as you'd expect. Keeping all my Omnisphere sample content on the boot drive makes it usable, keeping it on SATA makes it bog-worthy and frustrating.

So I'll be maxing out the uber-expensive, uber-fast Apple internal storage on whichever new AS Mac (Studio or hopefully New Pro) I wind up getting. Flicking through complex sample-based Omnisphere patches as if they were analog synth presets is a joy, and if other engines benefit in a similar fashion, I'll be glad if I have enough room to store their content on the internal drives. Maybe not all 16tb of Kontakt stuff, but.... definitely my 4tb of EXS / Logic Sampler stuff + loops.

So I'll be watching with interest which engine's load times + performance DO scale with the increased speed of AS internal storage, and when my new machine comes I'll do a bit of detailed testing to see what content deserves to live in an expensive penthouse apartment. The rest can slum it in the SATA+NVME condominiums down the street at the end of a TB cable.


----------



## samphony

And Charlie has a point here we shouldn’t base assumptions on kontakt alone. Engines like SINE, Omnisphere/ Keyscape and others clearly benefit the faster loading speeds. I’m glad I’ve got the highest capacity on the m1max.


----------



## colony nofi

samphony said:


> And Charlie has a point here we shouldn’t base assumptions on kontakt alone. Engines like SINE, Omnisphere/ Keyscape and others clearly benefit the faster loading speeds. I’m glad I’ve got the highest capacity on the m1max.


So true. And I also have some interesting results with (synthetic) Kontakt benchmarks recently which were unexpected on my m1max MBP... but still sniffing around figuring out what is going on but it bodes well.


----------



## molemac

charlieclouser said:


> . The rest can slum it in the SATA+NVME condominiums down the street at the end of a TB cable.


The fact that I understand this and find it funny is proof I need to get a life and or stick with my 2013 trash can.


----------



## Alex Fraser

charlieclouser said:


> The rest can slum it in the SATA+NVME condominiums down the street at the end of a TB cable.


Ha - some of my samples reside on a spinning platter (5400rpm) drive over USB 3.


----------



## stigc56

charlieclouser said:


> to an external SATA SSD in a MultiDock (450mb/sec)


Hi Charlie
I have a thunderbolt 1 connection on my Trashcan to a 4 SSD's in a Blackmagic dock, and never get above 350mb/sec, do you think that's what I can expect?


----------



## gsilbers

The internal sure seems fast but the external with thunderbolt clocking at 1500mb/s to me is already 3 times what i have now and im ok for the most part. So i dont think going with external is much of an issue in this context. for me at least. 

At the same time, how cool would it be to have 8tb internal on this tiny powerful thing that can replace just about any two computer setup the average pro composer has.

Id like to see someone run a track with a super large template in realtime with obs and live chrome YouTube streaming and also with a movie loaded up and recording stems all at once. A dense track with several doublings of instruments and jumping to different dougbling of instruments etc. Hopefully with one external 8tb drive. 
Once i see that, or close to that, i won't care about any specs at all and ill just buy it.
That sort of workflow is the one i might see my self in the future live streaming for my 3 viewers


----------



## HCMarkus

gsilbers said:


> The internal sure seems fast but the external with thunderbolt clocking at 1500mb/s to me is already 3 times what i have now and im ok for the most part. So I don't think going with external is much of an issue in this context. for me at least.


With a 2TB Samsung EVO Plus installed, the Envoy Express delivers its advertised 1500 MB/s rate consistently to the Mac Studio. $279 vs $600 for that extra, three to four times as fast, internal 2TB.

It has been said...

"you pays your money and you takes your choice"​


----------



## Jett Hitt

I have a 2TB internal and a 2TB WD 750 in an Acasis external. The load times are definitely faster than my old 5,1, but it's not like it is instant. In fact, some things aren't a bit better than they were before. I loaded up the Ravenscroft 275 in the UVI player this morning, and it was just as painfully slow as it was before. (Like go make coffee slow.) Sine was faster, but given that I have all of my OT libraries on the internal, I was less than impressed with the load times. Kontakt seemed better. I haven't downloaded the Spitfire Player yet, so I am not sure about it.

On another note, I could not find any way to download the Aria player and point it toward my Garritan CFX. It would not recognize it. My only option--or the only one I could find--was to re-download the entire library. And out here in Narnia, the internet ain't blazing. (I wonder if it's faster in Mordor?)


----------



## charlieclouser

Alex Fraser said:


> Ha - some of my samples reside on a spinning platter (5400rpm) drive over USB 3.


That's a bad neighborhood, deep in the rust belt!


----------



## charlieclouser

stigc56 said:


> Hi Charlie
> I have a thunderbolt 1 connection on my Trashcan to a 4 SSD's in a Blackmagic dock, and never get above 350mb/sec, do you think that's what I can expect?


I kind of pulled the 450mb/sec number out of my ass / memory. That's more or less what I remember from the last time I ran BlackMagic Speed Test. I think the internal on my trashcan reported 900-980 mb/sec while the MultiDock with Samsung 860pro 4tb SATA SSDs pulled below the claimed 500mb/sec, but above 400. Depends whether it's a Pro / EVO / QVO drive, which all give slightly different speeds, or some other manufacturer like Crucial or whatever. So 350 is pretty much in line with what to expect. My MultiDock uses TB2 to connect to the Mac.


----------



## rnb_2

stigc56 said:


> Hi Charlie
> I have a thunderbolt 1 connection on my Trashcan to a 4 SSD's in a Blackmagic dock, and never get above 350mb/sec, do you think that's what I can expect?


Is the dock Thunderbolt 1? The ports on the trashcan are Thunderbolt 2 (so 20gbps, or 2.5GB/s). 350MB/s isn't great for SATA drives, but depending on their age, is probably not completely out of line. You could look into something like the OWC Thunderbay Mini with SoftRAID (I'd buy the Thunderbolt 3 version and use Apple's Thunderbolt 2 to Thunderbolt 3 adapter for future-proofing) to get better performance - SATA SSDs in a 4-drive RAID actually match up very well with the available data bandwidth of both Thunderbolt 2 and 3 (and 4, for that matter).

Edit - with the info posted below by @Virtuoso, going RAID may not be in your best interests.


----------



## KEM

robgb said:


> Why on earth would you need 4TB of storage. The thing has multiple ports. Buy a bunch of external SSDs (or HDDs for that matter) and save a bunch of money.



I bought the 4tb


----------



## mscp

charlieclouser said:


> The age-old mantra about Kontakt load times and streaming performance not really benefitting all that much from super-fast drives may be true - but it may not stay that way, and of course Kontakt is not the be-all and end-all of samplers any more. If NI ever re-do that part of their engine, all of a sudden it might make a huge difference, just like it does with Omnisphere or EXS / Logic Sampler.
> 
> Comparing my 2013 Mac Pro boot drive (900mb/sec) to an external SATA SSD in a MultiDock (450mb/sec) when loading Omnisphere or EXS stuff, DOES scale as you'd expect. Keeping all my Omnisphere sample content on the boot drive makes it usable, keeping it on SATA makes it bog-worthy and frustrating.
> 
> So I'll be maxing out the uber-expensive, uber-fast Apple internal storage on whichever new AS Mac (Studio or hopefully New Pro) I wind up getting. Flicking through complex sample-based Omnisphere patches as if they were analog synth presets is a joy, and if other engines benefit in a similar fashion, I'll be glad if I have enough room to store their content on the internal drives. Maybe not all 16tb of Kontakt stuff, but.... definitely my 4tb of EXS / Logic Sampler stuff + loops.
> 
> So I'll be watching with interest which engine's load times + performance DO scale with the increased speed of AS internal storage, and when my new machine comes I'll do a bit of detailed testing to see what content deserves to live in an expensive penthouse apartment. The rest can slum it in the SATA+NVME condominiums down the street at the end of a TB cable.


In my experience, 800MB/s reads are good enough unless you have a gazillion sample-based instrument tracks at once. I've never run into trouble with external SSDs at 550MB/s (LaCie Portable) running around 70 percussive Omnisphere tracks simultaneously, but I have two. I still don't find the idea of having everything in one an attractive one. 

The CPU (M1Max) peaks way before the SSD starts to become an issue.

I think the benefit of the current apple storage is for busy Atmos sessions, and/or video editing. Never done either though.


----------



## Virtuoso

The high figures (500MB/s, 3.5GB/s, 7GB/s etc) advertised by SSD/NVMe manufacturers aren't actually that relevant to audio work. They are mainly of interest to people doing video work, where you work with very large contiguous files with extremely high data rates.

Audio streaming is all about loading (tens of) thousands of tiny audio files in a fairly random order. The BlackMagic disk benchmark only measures reading and writing of large contiguous files and isn't much use for audio tests.

A better benchmark utility is:-

On Mac - AmorphousDiskMark
On Windows - CrystalDiskMark

These will test the all-important random 4k read speeds which matter for library streaming.

Here are some examples. Firstly, 4 NVMe M.2 drives in a RAID0. Wow! 13.8GB/s read speed! Great for video, but look at the random 4k result - only 64.47MB/s! RAID0 just isn't a good choice for sample libraries.






Now a single drive. Still great contiguous read speed at 6.7GB/s but look at the random 4k result - 649MB/s - 10x faster than the RAID0!






Note that the above drive is empty. How do those results vary on a full drive? We often hear about needing to leave 10-20% free on SSDs to preserve their speed, but this only affects WRITE speed. READ speed is still extremely fast even on a full drive.






The above drive is 97% full but notice how only the WRITE speeds are affected. And actually they're still pretty fast even though the drive is almost full!

And just for comparison, here's an old Samsung 860 EVO SSD in a BlackMagic Multidock. Note that the random 4k performance is still pretty good at 205MB/s - still 3x faster than 4 M.2 drives in a RAID0!






Hope that was useful!

Edit: TLDR...
- don't use RAID
- don't worry about filling up your drives
- you don't really need NVMe M.2 drives for audio. SSDs are fine.


----------



## davidson

Virtuoso said:


> The high figures (500MB/s, 3.5GB/s, 7GB/s etc) advertised by SSD/NVMe manufacturers aren't actually that relevant to audio work. They are mainly of interest to people doing video work, where you work with very large contiguous files with extremely high data rates.
> 
> Audio streaming is all about loading (tens of) thousands of tiny audio files in a fairly random order. The BlackMagic disk benchmark only measures reading and writing of large contiguous files and isn't much use for audio tests.
> 
> A better benchmark utility is:-
> 
> On Mac - AmorphousDiskMark
> On Windows - CrystalDiskMark
> 
> These will test the all-important random 4k read speeds which matter for library streaming.
> 
> Here are some examples. Firstly, 4 NVMe M.2 drives in a RAID0. Wow! 13.8GB/s read speed! Great for video, but look at the random 4k result - only 64.47MB/s! RAID0 just isn't a good choice for sample libraries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now a single drive. Still great contiguous read speed at 6.7GB/s but look at the random 4k result - 649MB/s - 10x faster than the RAID0!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Note that the above drive is empty. How do those results vary on a full drive? We often hear about needing to leave 10-20% free on SSDs to preserve their speed, but this only affects WRITE speed. READ speed is still extremely fast even on a full drive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The above drive is 97% full but notice how only the WRITE speeds are affected. And actually they're still pretty fast even though the drive is almost full!
> 
> And just for comparison, here's an old Samsung 860 EVO SSD in a BlackMagic Multidock. Note that the random 4k performance is still pretty good at 205MB/s - still 3x faster than 4 M.2 drives in a RAID0!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hope that was useful!


Great post! Whats the difference between QD64 and QD1 for the random 4k?


----------



## Virtuoso

Queue Depth - basically how efficiently the operating system can prioritize I/O threads. Think of QD64 as a best case scenario and QD1 as a worst case.


----------



## ridgero

Samsung T7:


----------



## Guavadude

@Virtuoso 
thx so much for the intel! Is there an enclosure you prefer? Seems like there's quite a performance difference in those as well but it gets pretty tech geeky pretty quick for a guitar player.


----------



## Virtuoso

Guavadude said:


> @Virtuoso
> thx so much for the intel! Is there an enclosure you prefer?


I only use internal drives, but for external I would always recommend going Thunderbolt if possible.


----------



## Zedcars

Virtuoso said:


> The high figures (500MB/s, 3.5GB/s, 7GB/s etc) advertised by SSD/NVMe manufacturers aren't actually that relevant to audio work. They are mainly of interest to people doing video work, where you work with very large contiguous files with extremely high data rates.
> 
> Audio streaming is all about loading (tens of) thousands of tiny audio files in a fairly random order. The BlackMagic disk benchmark only measures reading and writing of large contiguous files and isn't much use for audio tests.
> 
> A better benchmark utility is:-
> 
> On Mac - AmorphousDiskMark
> On Windows - CrystalDiskMark
> 
> These will test the all-important random 4k read speeds which matter for library streaming.
> 
> Here are some examples. Firstly, 4 NVMe M.2 drives in a RAID0. Wow! 13.8GB/s read speed! Great for video, but look at the random 4k result - only 64.47MB/s! RAID0 just isn't a good choice for sample libraries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now a single drive. Still great contiguous read speed at 6.7GB/s but look at the random 4k result - 649MB/s - 10x faster than the RAID0!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Note that the above drive is empty. How do those results vary on a full drive? We often hear about needing to leave 10-20% free on SSDs to preserve their speed, but this only affects WRITE speed. READ speed is still extremely fast even on a full drive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The above drive is 97% full but notice how only the WRITE speeds are affected. And actually they're still pretty fast even though the drive is almost full!
> 
> And just for comparison, here's an old Samsung 860 EVO SSD in a BlackMagic Multidock. Note that the random 4k performance is still pretty good at 205MB/s - still 3x faster than 4 M.2 drives in a RAID0!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hope that was useful!
> 
> Edit: TLDR...
> - don't use RAID
> - don't worry about filling up your drives
> - you don't really need NVMe M.2 drives for audio. SSDs are fine.


Thanks for taking the time to post this. Very helpful.

After testing with Amorphous Disk Mark these are my results on my RAID 0 Thunderblade 8TB drive.






Not too bad, but poor write speeds for the 4k files. I guess since I'm mainly streaming samples the read speed is more important. I wonder if it would be worth reformatting without RAID 0? Do you think I would get better speeds without it? There are 4x 2TB NVMe SSDs on the Thunderblade.

I do some video editing, but mostly use it to stream sample libraries.


----------



## KEM

You guys get _really_ technical with this stuff, I just turn my computer on and if it works I’m set lol


----------



## Virtuoso

Zedcars said:


> I wonder if it would be worth reformatting without RAID 0? Do you think I would get better speeds without it? There are 4x 2TB NVMe SSDs on the Thunderblade.


I did exactly that recently. I had most of my sample libraries on an 8TB RAID0, but when I saw the performance difference from using individual drives, I got rid of the RAID. My load times on heavy libraries like BBCSO, VSL and OT fell dramatically. For example - BBCSO Pro Violins 1 (Full) loads in 6s now.

I notice you're using Mac OS Extended (Journaled) - if you do reformat, choose APFS instead. It's more efficient with SSDs and offers a few more options for volumes/partitions.


----------



## Virtuoso

Incidentally I ran another benchmark to see what performance would be like with a 4 disk JBOD (just for the convenience of having one drive).

The random speeds are as slow as a RAID0, but without any of the benefits of striping. Don't bother going there.


----------



## Guavadude

I just ran the tests with my HD drives and threw up in my mouth a little. I'm guessing negative numbers are bad.


----------



## Sergievsky

What if RAID 5 is used instead of 0? Would that be any better as far as the random 4k read times?


----------



## rnb_2

Virtuoso said:


> The high figures (500MB/s, 3.5GB/s, 7GB/s etc) advertised by SSD/NVMe manufacturers aren't actually that relevant to audio work. They are mainly of interest to people doing video work, where you work with very large contiguous files with extremely high data rates.
> 
> Audio streaming is all about loading (tens of) thousands of tiny audio files in a fairly random order. The BlackMagic disk benchmark only measures reading and writing of large contiguous files and isn't much use for audio tests.
> 
> A better benchmark utility is:-
> 
> On Mac - AmorphousDiskMark
> On Windows - CrystalDiskMark
> 
> These will test the all-important random 4k read speeds which matter for library streaming.
> 
> Here are some examples. Firstly, 4 NVMe M.2 drives in a RAID0. Wow! 13.8GB/s read speed! Great for video, but look at the random 4k result - only 64.47MB/s! RAID0 just isn't a good choice for sample libraries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now a single drive. Still great contiguous read speed at 6.7GB/s but look at the random 4k result - 649MB/s - 10x faster than the RAID0!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Note that the above drive is empty. How do those results vary on a full drive? We often hear about needing to leave 10-20% free on SSDs to preserve their speed, but this only affects WRITE speed. READ speed is still extremely fast even on a full drive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The above drive is 97% full but notice how only the WRITE speeds are affected. And actually they're still pretty fast even though the drive is almost full!
> 
> And just for comparison, here's an old Samsung 860 EVO SSD in a BlackMagic Multidock. Note that the random 4k performance is still pretty good at 205MB/s - still 3x faster than 4 M.2 drives in a RAID0!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hope that was useful!
> 
> Edit: TLDR...
> - don't use RAID
> - don't worry about filling up your drives
> - you don't really need NVMe M.2 drives for audio. SSDs are fine.


Looks very useful - thanks for the great post!

Unfortunately, AmorphousDiskMark is solidly in the running for the worst icon in Mac app history.


----------



## Virtuoso

Sergievsky said:


> What if RAID 5 is used instead of 0? Would that be any better as far as the random 4k read times?


I doubt it, although I did not run that test. RAID5 just gives you more redundancy with striped parity. You would lose some of the capacity and speed of a full RAID0 array. 


rnb_2 said:


> Unfortunately, AmorphousDiskMark is solidly in the running for the worst icon in Mac app history.


Can't disagree with that - they didn't bother at all!


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Affinity Photo!


----------



## colony nofi

ATTO make an awesome drive benchmarking tool - which can sequentially test different size read/writes and display on a graph. Cannot recommend highly enough.

Oh - and even good ol activity monitor is good for seeing real-time what a drive is doing. You'll be surprised. And once you see those numbers, you might end up diving into deep rabbit holes....

Mac : https://www.atto.com/disk-benchmark-macOS/
Windows : https://www.atto.com/disk-benchmark/

And yes - Raid 0 is generally not great for sample libraries. 

However, not always.

My old (not really that old) Glyph M2R 4TB thunderbolt SSB *is* internally running raid 0. And for reasons it doesn't suffer the same issues as running a software raid on a Mac. 

(not to be confused with the two sets of NAND chips for the internal storage of new MacBook pro's and Mac studios, which are controlled by a single chip and NOT raid... *rant incoming* The online commentators who went "oh look you can replace the SSD's" should have figured this out before putting out really misleading information!)


----------



## HCMarkus

Mac Studio Ultra up and running in the studio. DP11.04 AS-Native is smooth, running a mixed bag of Native and Rosetta plugins. 

In a word, Sweet!


----------



## Nimrod7

Just a note that Apple Care for this machine is €179 (probably the same number in $).
Or €59 for each year of the 3 years coverage. I believe totally worth it to have piece of mind, considering that if this thing fails, it will cost a 4 digit number to get it fixed.


----------



## davidson

Zedcars said:


> Thanks for taking the time to post this. Very helpful.
> 
> After testing with Amorphous Disk Mark these are my results on my RAID 0 Thunderblade 8TB drive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not too bad, but poor write speeds for the 4k files. I guess since I'm mainly streaming samples the read speed is more important. I wonder if it would be worth reformatting without RAID 0? Do you think I would get better speeds without it? There are 4x 2TB NVMe SSDs on the Thunderblade.
> 
> I do some video editing, but mostly use it to stream sample libraries.


That looks like a crazy high score for the QD64 read. QD64 figures seem to vary massively, whereas QD1 figures seem to sit around the same miserable numbers. I know @Virtuoso mentioned that it's a range from QD1 to 64, but which end does something like kontakt use? If its nearer the 64 end, I can see NVME being a good choice, but if its nearer the QD1 end, not so much...


----------



## Michael Antrum

Nimrod7 said:


> Just a note that Apple Care for this machine is €179 (probably the same number in $).
> Or €59 for each year of the 3 years coverage. I believe totally worth it to have piece of mind, considering that if this thing fails, it will cost a 4 digit number to get it fixed.


What I don't like, however, is that there seems to be no possibility of Apple Care after this three year period. At least in the UK. Understand in the US there is some annual version....


----------



## davidson

Michael Antrum said:


> What I don't like, however, is that there seems to be no possibility of Apple Care after this three year period. At least in the UK. Understand in the US there is some annual version....


I spoke to customer support a couple of weeks ago to see if or when we would be able to do the same in the UK, and her answer was basically that she had no idea. Fingers crossed we get the option at some point.


----------



## Electric Moss

I just spoke to another composer friend while working on project notes and he mentioned that his M1 Max studio is up and running. (M1Max, 64 gb, 1 tb internal). 

He pointed out that it was roughly only $50 more (in the US) to bypass the extra $400 for the 2 tb upgrade and instead purchase the OWC Express 4M2 (https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/express-4m2) and buy the 2 tb Samsung 970 EVO Plus SSD NVMe drive (only $199 on Amazon in the US)...which he is streaming samples from (the ones that benefit from the higher speed at least). 

This won't be as fast as the internal speed, but could be a middle of the road sweet spot... curious what @Virtuoso thinks about this option 
​


----------



## khollister

Electric Moss said:


> I just spoke to another composer friend while working on project notes and he mentioned that his M1 Max studio is up and running. (M1Max, 64 gb, 1 tb internal).
> 
> He pointed out that it was roughly only $50 more (in the US) to bypass the extra $400 for the 2 tb upgrade and instead purchase the OWC Express 4M2 (https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/express-4m2) and buy the 2 tb Samsung 970 EVO Plus SSD NVMe drive (only $199 on Amazon in the US)...which he is streaming samples from (the ones that benefit from the higher speed at least).
> 
> This won't be as fast as the internal speed, but could be a middle of the road sweet spot... curious what @Virtuoso thinks about this option
> ​


I don't know for certain, but I strongly suspect that the Express 4M2, like most external TB 4 drive enclosures, only use 1 PCie lane per drive. The problem is TB3/4 only allocate approx 2800 MBs for data (the rest reserved for video streams) and it is impossible to simultaneously run 4 NVMe devices (JBOD) at anywhere close to the blade speed maximums. These chassis are designed to run in RAID 0 (striped) - 4 x 700MBs. A single NVMe blade in one of these boxes will likely yield speeds similar to SATA SSD's.

While I am not getting into whether that is fast enough for sample streaming (probably is but you will see a big difference in load speeds depending on sample player), it is hardly an apples to apples comparison to the 5000 MBs+ internal drives. It also makes absolutely no economic sense unless you lan on populating the the remaining slots.

Even then, an OWC Envoy Express TB3 enclosure ($79) plus your choice of 2, 4 or 8TB NVMe blade will yield better performance (~1500 MBs) unless you RAID 3 or 4 slots in the 4M2.


----------



## rnb_2

khollister said:


> I don't know for certain, but I strongly suspect that the Express 4M2, like most external TB 4 drive enclosures, only use 1 PCie lane per drive. The problem is TB3/4 only allocate approx 2800 MBs for data (the rest reserved for video streams) and it is impossible to simultaneously run 4 NVMe devices (JBOD) at anywhere close to the blade speed maximums. These chassis are designed to run in RAID 0 (striped) - 4 x 700MBs. A single NVMe blade in one of these boxes will likely yield speeds similar to SATA SSD's.


This is correct. I have a 4M2 that I bought in late 2018 (along with an i7 Mac mini and eGPU) for video work, as 2TB NVMe drives were prohibitively expensive back then, so I went with 4x500GB Samsung 960 EVO (which were $110 at the time).

Other than the fan noise, it's a great little box, but it is meant for RAID, and the thing that has become increasingly clear about NVMe drives is that you RAID them for capacity, not speed. The 4M2 is definitely not recommended for single drive use - you're much better off with the Envoy Express, especially now that Thunderbolt 4 makes having multiple non-chainable Thunderbolt devices much more workable.


----------



## BassClef

...waiting on my Mac Studio... currently have about 3TB of VI libraries on one Samsung T-7 (a two TB USB/NVMe SSD) and one Samsung (2TB USB/SATAIII SSD in an OWC USB enclosure) both running on 8 year old iMac USB3 ports. 

Anyone have experience with this external dual bay Thunderbolt enclosure? It claims "single drive" speeds of 1500 MB/s. I'm considering this enclosure exclusively for VI libraries... starting with one 4TB NVMe then when needed, adding another.









Thunderbolt 3 To Dual NVMe M.2 SSD Tool-Free Enclosure


FALSE




www.sabrent.com





Of course... not sure if I'll even notice a difference in loading or streaming samples!


----------



## ssnowe

Don't personally have one but have other Sabrent enclosures and they are well made and work well.

Note the power brick for this as it is large making the enclosure less portable


----------



## BassClef

ssnowe said:


> Don't personally have one but have other Sabrent enclosures and they are well made and work well.
> 
> Note the power brick for this as it is large making the enclosure less portable


Thanks for the info. I have no need for portability. I just want to get all of my libraries on a single "fast enough" external SSD, with upgradability. 

Then I'll get a large single HDD backup device that can back up both internal and external data... possibly a NAS. (likely using Time Machine) Then all data also goes to my cloud storage backup.


----------



## ssnowe

BassClef said:


> Thanks for the info. I have no need for portability. I just want to get all of my libraries on a single "fast enough" external SSD, with upgradability.
> 
> Then I'll get a large single HDD backup device that can back up both internal and external data... possibly a NAS. (likely using Time Machine) Then all data also goes to my cloud storage backup.


Makes sense.

Take a look at the Question/Answer section on Amazon regarding total speed for the two drives (you run into a Thunderbolt 4 lane total/2 lane per nvme situation). Some people aren't happy with this but all things considered, its still really fast:

*What will be the maximum speed of each of the cards and in general of both cards if you use 2 high-speed cards with a write speed of 7,000 mb / s?

Answer:
The theoretical one card max is 1500MB/sec. With two, that could go as high as 3000MB/sec, although the manufacturer (in another question) has said it's 2500MB/sec. Some customers have posted results of about 1800MB/sec - 2400 MB/sec with two cards and software RAID configurations and they appear to be using cards faster than 2500MB/sec as your scenario suggests you are considering.*


----------



## Jett Hitt

Here are two speed tests conducted on my Mac Studio Max. The first is the 2TB internal, and the second is the Acasis USB 4.0 enclosure with a 2TB WD 750.


----------



## khollister

BassClef said:


> ...waiting on my Mac Studio... currently have about 3TB of VI libraries on one Samsung T-7 (a two TB USB/NVMe SSD) and one Samsung (2TB USB/SATAIII SSD in an OWC USB enclosure) both running on 8 year old iMac USB3 ports.
> 
> Anyone have experience with this external dual bay Thunderbolt enclosure? It claims "single drive" speeds of 1500 MB/s. I'm considering this enclosure exclusively for VI libraries... starting with one 4TB NVMe then when needed, adding another.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thunderbolt 3 To Dual NVMe M.2 SSD Tool-Free Enclosure
> 
> 
> FALSE
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sabrent.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course... not sure if I'll even notice a difference in loading or streaming samples!


I would use 2 Envoy Express cases - 1500 MBs per blade. All of the TB4 ports on any of the M1's have dedicated controllers, so 2 Envoy Expresses plugged into 2 ports will give you 1500 MBs each simultaneously. 2 x $79 vs 1 x $149. Bus powered too instead of a power brick (less cabling)


----------



## HCMarkus

Electric Moss said:


> I just spoke to another composer friend while working on project notes and he mentioned that his M1 Max studio is up and running. (M1Max, 64 gb, 1 tb internal).
> 
> He pointed out that it was roughly only $50 more (in the US) to bypass the extra $400 for the 2 tb upgrade and instead purchase the OWC Express 4M2 (https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/express-4m2) and buy the 2 tb Samsung 970 EVO Plus SSD NVMe drive (only $199 on Amazon in the US)...which he is streaming samples from (the ones that benefit from the higher speed at least).
> 
> This won't be as fast as the internal speed, but could be a middle of the road sweet spot... curious what @Virtuoso thinks about this option
> ​


I have that 2TB Samsung NVMe SSD in the $80 OWC Envoy Express. Using for sample streaming.


----------



## BassClef

Mac Studio in route...

Apple says... shipped... arriving 4/15

For 6 days now UPS showed received at station (hong kong airport) "on the way" delivery 4/08. (today. It did not deliver today. Now UPS shows same status info EXCEPT... Delivery is now pending!


----------



## BassClef

Hong Kong to Incheon? I never would have guessed that. Thanks.


----------



## Luka

BassClef said:


> Mac Studio in route...
> 
> Apple says... shipped... arriving 4/15
> 
> For 6 days now UPS showed received at station (hong kong airport) "on the way" delivery 4/08. (today. It did not deliver today. Now UPS shows same status info EXCEPT... Delivery is now pending!


If I may, what was your original estimated shipping date from Apple?


----------



## alcorey

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Affinity Photo!


Yes!! I've been paying the Adobe Mafia for way too long now, been with them since the 90s'. I'm doing a trial of Affinity Publisher right now and I'm REALLY impressed. For $165 you can get Publisher, Designer and Photo to replace Photoshop, Illustrator and Indesign - and you OWN it. That's only 3 months worth of Adobe's monthly gangster collection !!! 

Although - They did reduce my monthly contribution to $29.99 with 3 months free when my year was up 2 months ago because I told them I was going to cancel - so it doesn't hurt as much as the last 10 years or so ....... BUT, I don't think they'll see me next year

Sorry, Back on topic


----------



## BassClef

Luka said:


> If I may, what was your original estimated shipping date from Apple?


When the status on Apple's site switched from "preparing to ship" to "shipped" the projected arrival date was and has remained 4/15... which was immediately in conflict with UPS's 4/08 delivery date. I am now waiting on a revised date from UPS, as their status now shows "pending delivery date" since the original date has passed.


----------



## Jett Hitt

alcorey said:


> Yes!! I've been paying the Adobe Mafia for way too long now, been with them since the 90s'. I'm doing a trial of Affinity Publisher right now and I'm REALLY impressed. For $165 you can get Publisher, Designer and Photo to replace Photoshop, Illustrator and Indesign - and you OWN it. That's only 3 months worth of Adobe's monthly gangster collection !!!
> 
> Although - They did reduce my monthly contribution to $29.99 with 3 months free when my year was up 2 months ago because I told them I was going to cancel - so it doesn't hurt as much as the last 10 years or so ....... BUT, I don't think they'll see me next year
> 
> Sorry, Back on topic


This made my day! I have kept my iMac on Mohave because my versions of Adobe won't run on anything newer. I shall finally throw off Adobe's chains! Thank you!


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

alcorey said:


> Yes!! I've been paying the Adobe Mafia for way too long now, been with them since the 90s'. I'm doing a trial of Affinity Publisher right now and I'm REALLY impressed. For $165 you can get Publisher, Designer and Photo to replace Photoshop, Illustrator and Indesign - and you OWN it. That's only 3 months worth of Adobe's monthly gangster collection !!!
> 
> Although - They did reduce my monthly contribution to $29.99 with 3 months free when my year was up 2 months ago because I told them I was going to cancel - so it doesn't hurt as much as the last 10 years or so ....... BUT, I don't think they'll see me next year
> 
> Sorry, Back on topic



While we're off the topic: James Ritson, the guy who does the Affinity Photo tutorials, is outstanding.

I don't really have a use for the other Affinity programs, but I live in Photo. See www.NickBatzdorf.com. It isn't really a Photoshop alternative for me, in fact I didn't realize the similarities when I bought it!


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Jett Hitt said:


> This made my day! I have kept my iMac on Mohave because my versions of Adobe won't run on anything newer. I shall finally throw off Adobe's chains! Thank you!



As a counter perspective, having owned Affinity Photo for many years now and having tried very hard to make it my tool for pretty in-depth photo editing, it is absolutely no replacement for Photoshop for my workflow. It actually doesn't even come close. But, it may be totally sufficient for what you need it to do. But yeah, Adobe is king for a reason (though I applaud Affinity's attempt at creating some competition).


----------



## rnb_2

ALittleNightMusic said:


> As a counter perspective, having owned Affinity Photo for many years now and having tried very hard to make it my tool for pretty in-depth photo editing, it is absolutely no replacement for Photoshop for my workflow. It actually doesn't even come close. But, it may be totally sufficient for what you need it to do. But yeah, Adobe is king for a reason (though I applaud Affinity's attempt at creating some competition).


Yeah, I've bought most of the "Photoshop replacements" (Affinity, Pixelmator, Acorn, etc) and, while each has its strengths, I still tend to just use Photoshop for most things. I know many are opposed to subscriptions of any kind, but the Photography Plan at $9.99US/month (less if you find an annual plan on sale at retail) is a pretty good deal. It was created to keep photographers from bailing when Adobe switched to subscriptions, and it's less than ½ the cost of any single-app subscription, even just Photoshop, which is included in the Photography Plan, along with Lightroom Classic, Lightroom, and a bit of cloud storage. You even get portfolio hosting - it's not fancy, but it works.

I do have Affinity Designer for the rare times I need something like Illustrator, but for photos and anything pixel-based, what Adobe provides for $10/mo is still a pretty compelling value. If you need more than just those apps, though, I can understand why you'd be looking for alternatives, especially if you're not using the Adobe apps to make a living.


----------



## Jett Hitt

I’m sure Affinity Photo and Designer aren’t as powerful as the Adobe equivalents, but I’m using Creative Suite 4 from circa 2009. I suspect Affinity will hold its own against what I’m using right now. I don’t use them often enough to justify a subscription. What’s more, I refuse to use subscription based software. I just can’t have something that I feel guilty for not using.


----------



## yellow_lupine

It seems some people have encountered high pitched whine noise sound in their Mac Studio. What about you?


----------



## gsilbers

Jett Hitt said:


> I’m sure Affinity Photo and Designer aren’t as powerful as the Adobe equivalents, but I’m using Creative Suite 4 from circa 2009. I suspect Affinity will hold its own against what I’m using right now. I don’t use them often enough to justify a subscription. What’s more, I refuse to use subscription based software. I just can’t have something that I feel guilty for not using.


wait... you are using CC4 in big sur/monterrey?!


----------



## Jett Hitt

gsilbers said:


> wait... you are using CC4 in big sur/monterrey?!


No, no. You missed up above where I said I hadn't upgraded my iMac because of CC4. Even under Mohave everything is not functional if you don't know the tricks to get around the hiccups.


----------



## gsilbers

Jett Hitt said:


> No, no. You missed up above where I said I hadn't upgraded my iMac because of CC4. Even under Mohave everything is not functional if you don't know the tricks to get around the hiccups.


*ADHD facepalm sound 🤦‍♂️


adobe and virus ti are the ones holding me in mojave. :/


----------



## Electric Moss

I think I’m gonna pull the trigger on the M1 Max Mac Studio with 64 gb ram. Coming from a 2013 8-core trashcan with 64 gb that I RARELY ever maxed out (the video playback in Logic is really the only sluggish issue I’ve had other than long bounce and VI load times), I think this should be more than enough for nearly all of my jobs. 

My trashcan has the base graphics card (dual 2 gb) so I’m really hoping to see a vast improvement with the Max while scrolling through the cue timeline. 

Going to heed the advice in here and keep my SSDs in the OWC TB mini dock and purchase the OWC envoy with a NVMe drive for samples in lieu of getting a larger internal. 

Unless someone wants to talk me into the Ultra 😂…I mean, just a single library sync could pay for the difference, but I’m also totally cool with updating again in a couple of years if this isn’t a big enough upgrade from the trashcan…which it looks like it has to be.


----------



## Electric Moss

Electric Moss said:


> I think I’m gonna pull the trigger on the M1 Max Mac Studio with 64 gb ram. Coming from a 2013 8-core trashcan with 64 gb that I RARELY ever maxed out (the video playback in Logic is really the only sluggish issue I’ve had other than long bounce and VI load times), I think this should be more than enough for nearly all of my jobs.
> 
> My trashcan has the base graphics card (dual 2 gb) so I’m really hoping to see a vast improvement with the Max while scrolling through the cue timeline.
> 
> Going to heed the advice in here and keep my SSDs in the OWC TB mini dock and purchase the OWC envoy with a NVMe drive for samples in lieu of getting a larger internal.
> 
> Unless someone wants to talk me into the Ultra 😂…I mean, just a single library sync could pay for the difference, but I’m also totally cool with updating again in a couple of years if this isn’t a big enough upgrade from the trashcan…which it looks like it has to be.


Also, I finally measured the fan noise on the trashcan, which tends to be at around 35 dB. I wouldn’t even notice the Studio fan if it sits in this range.


----------



## Jett Hitt

I went with the Max after a lot of going back and forth. For those of you still undecided, here is some more food for thought in the Max vs. Ultra struggle.


----------



## HCMarkus

yellow_lupine said:


> It seems some people have encountered high pitched whine noise sound in their Mac Studio. What about you?


Not me. Ultra is just a steady soft whoosh. I could hear it when I was setting it up in a quiet room. Now it is in the machine closet, with the vent side facing the door so I can access all the rear ports. The two front TB ports (facing the closet back wall) are permanently occupied by Interface and Second Display. The card slot is gonna' be forever lonely.

The Mac is handling DP 11.04 (Native) nicely. I jumped right in to an ongoing documentary and, with the exception of a few preference adjustments I forgot and intermittent crashing (bug) if I drag an audio file to the Mac desktop from DP, it is inspiring joy... everything just happens so much faster with this thing.


----------



## BassClef

Jett Hitt said:


> I went with the Max after a lot of going back and forth. For those of you still undecided, here is some more food for thought in the Max vs. Ultra struggle.



Too funny... I saw that test video this morning. I ordered the Ultra for the 128GB ram and... as a longer term investment (at least 6-8 years) I'm anticipating many developer software updates that will better utilize the M1's multi cores. That would lead to an even wider performance gap between the Ultra and Max in coming years. Although I could be wrong!


----------



## Jett Hitt

BassClef said:


> Too funny... I saw that test video this morning. I ordered the Ultra for the 128GB ram and... as a longer term investment (at least 6-8 years) I'm anticipating many developer software updates that will better utilize the M1's multi cores. That would lead to an even wider performance gap between the Ultra and Max in coming years. Although I could be wrong!


I hope for those purchasing the Ultra that you’re right. I decided that I would save the $2200 and get by with the Max for 3-4 years. I mean, I’m coming from the 5,1, which was working just fine for me, so I figure that the Ultra was just overkill. I also have 160 GB of RAM in other machines that I can slave if I have to, though I doubt that will be necessary.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

ALittleNightMusic said:


> As a counter perspective, having owned Affinity Photo for many years now and having tried very hard to make it my tool for pretty in-depth photo editing, it is absolutely no replacement for Photoshop for my workflow. It actually doesn't even come close. But, it may be totally sufficient for what you need it to do. But yeah, Adobe is king for a reason (though I applaud Affinity's attempt at creating some competition).



I think I need to post another thread here saying that I moved this to the OT section as well so we can continue it without feeling guilty about having hijacked this thread. 





__





Affinity Photo vs. Photoshop conversation continued


As a counter perspective, having owned Affinity Photo for many years now and having tried very hard to make it my tool for pretty in-depth photo editing, it is absolutely no replacement for Photoshop for my workflow. It actually doesn't even come close. But, it may be totally sufficient for what...




vi-control.net


----------



## Jett Hitt

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I think I need to post another thread here saying that I moved this to the OT section as well so we can continue it without feeling guilty about having hijacked this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Affinity Photo vs. Photoshop conversation continued
> 
> 
> As a counter perspective, having owned Affinity Photo for many years now and having tried very hard to make it my tool for pretty in-depth photo editing, it is absolutely no replacement for Photoshop for my workflow. It actually doesn't even come close. But, it may be totally sufficient for what...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net


At first, I thought that this was some underhanded joke about OT, but for the life of me, I couldn't figure out the humor in it. Finally, I realized that OT wasn't Orchestral Tools.


----------



## aeliron

yellow_lupine said:


> It seems some people have encountered high pitched whine noise sound in their Mac Studio. What about you?


I’m pretty sure that’s just from this forum


----------



## KEM

I just wanted to let everyone know that I love my Mac Studio


Ok bye


----------



## chomeaso

KEM said:


> I just wanted to let everyone know that I love my Mac Studio
> 
> 
> Ok bye



Sounds almost like a man talking about his wife next to her 😗


----------



## KEM

chomeaso said:


> Sounds almost like a man talking about his wife next to her 😗



It’ll be a very long time before I ever have a wife, if ever at all


----------



## HCMarkus

I have a wife. She is jealous of my Mac Studio. And she has every right to be.


----------



## Loïc D

I just bought a 16” MBP on the refurb (32Gb/2Tb). Now I feel like I belong to the M1 gang.


----------



## davidson

*** HELP ***

So I was just running some amorphousdiskmark tests to measure internal and external drive soeeds to post to this thread, and partway through it stopped working and said it couldn't write the test file. Now my brand new 8TB external ssd which I've spent the last 3 days filling and organising wont mount. Please, if anyone has any pointers or tips, I'm completely desperate here.


----------



## davidson

This is what I have now in disk utility.


----------



## khollister

davidson said:


> This is what I have now in disk utility.


Have you tried rebooting with the drive attached? What do you see attached to the USB controllers in System Report?


----------



## davidson

khollister said:


> Have you tried rebooting with the drive attached? What do you see attached to the USB controllers in System Report?


Yeah, I've tried restarting and shutting down completely.


----------



## Guavadude

just a head's up that there might be an issue with OWC raids and the Mac Studio.


----------



## khollister

davidson said:


> Yeah, I've tried restarting and shutting down completely.


Is this a Mac Studio? Is the USB drives connected directly to a USB-C port on the Mac?


----------



## davidson

khollister said:


> Is this a Mac Studio? Is the USB drives connected directly to a USB-C port on the Mac?


It is, yes. I've tried both the usb-c and usb-a ports.


----------



## khollister

davidson said:


> It is, yes. I've tried both the usb-c and usb-a ports.


Since it appears disk first aid is grayed out in your Disk Utility screenshot, I'm at a loss of what to suggest then short of attempting to erase the disk and start over.


----------



## rnb_2

khollister said:


> Since it appears disk first aid is grayed out in your Disk Utility screenshot, I'm at a loss of what to suggest then short of attempting to erase the disk and start over.


Yeah, I was going to suggest DiskWarrior as an option, but they don't support APFS or Apple Silicon yet.


----------



## Michael Antrum

Well, After much too-ing and fro-ing, I have gone and ordered the Studio Max with 64gb/2Tb.

I came very, very close to going for the top model with 128gb and 8tb, but I spend most of my money on drugs and high maintenance women.

(which translates to I have a wife and two daughters, and I'm running low on Asprin again...)

I'm being told July 5th onwards for delivery, which means that I'll hopefully get sight of the new Mac Pro before it arrives, as I'm expecting it to be announced at WWDC which is June.


----------



## Virtuoso

davidson said:


> *** HELP ***
> 
> So I was just running some amorphousdiskmark tests to measure internal and external drive soeeds to post to this thread, and partway through it stopped working and said it couldn't write the test file. Now my brand new 8TB external ssd which I've spent the last 3 days filling and organising wont mount. Please, if anyone has any pointers or tips, I'm completely desperate here.


Have you tried rebooting in safe mode and repairing the disk from there? To be absolutely sure, turn the Mac off, remove the power cord and wait 20 seconds (this resets the SMC). Plug it back in and turn it on. Hold Command-R until after the chime and then choose Disk Utility from the menu. Hopefully that will reveal the greyed out option.

It's a good idea to use the USB-C ports as they give not only much faster speed, but also much greater power. Sometimes an external disk not mounting can be down to power issues.


----------



## davidson

Virtuoso said:


> Have you tried rebooting in safe mode and repairing the disk from there? To be absolutely sure, turn the Mac off, remove the power cord and wait 20 seconds (this resets the SMC). Plug it back in and turn it on. Hold Command-R until after the chime and then choose Disk Utility from the menu. Hopefully that will reveal the greyed out option.
> 
> It's a good idea to use the USB-C ports as they give not only much faster speed, but also much greater power. Sometimes an external disk not mounting can be down to power issues.


Yeah, I tried every terminal command under the sun in recovery mode. The APFS container is completely screwed (basically not there any longer). Absolutely fkn brilliant, 7TB of data gone just like that, some of it new and unrecoverable. in 20 odd years of dealing with computers heavily each day, this is the first time Ive had the dreaded 'here one second, gone the next' happen that quickly. Literally gone in 2 seconds. 

I'm just hoping it hasnt caused any long standing damage to the brand new drive. Is that a thing - can drive blocks be damaged beyond repair even after re-formatting, or was the damage likely just 1s and 0s?

Oh well, here goes another couple of days wasted trying to get back up and running again. I will *NOT* be letting Katsuras disk app within 5 miles of my mac ever again.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Jett Hitt said:


> At first, I thought that this was some underhanded joke about OT, but for the life of me, I couldn't figure out the humor in it. Finally, I realized that OT wasn't Orchestral Tools.


And I'm one of the people who shouts the loudest about not using acronyms! 

But this is exactly why. It's not that standard acronyms are a problem (I think everyone knows what IMO, OMG, etc. mean), it's that it's annoying AF when people use them for sample libraries.

I for one have NFI what library someone is talking about 90% of the time.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

KEM said:


> It’ll be a very long time before I ever have a wife, if ever at all


I like mine even better than a computer.


----------



## ssnowe

davidson said:


> Yeah, I tried every terminal command under the sun in recovery mode. The APFS container is completely screwed (basically not there any longer). Absolutely fkn brilliant, 7TB of data gone just like that, some of it new and unrecoverable. in 20 odd years of dealing with computers heavily each day, this is the first time Ive had the dreaded 'here one second, gone the next' happen that quickly. Literally gone in 2 seconds.
> 
> I'm just hoping it hasnt caused any long standing damage to the brand new drive. Is that a thing - can drive blocks be damaged beyond repair even after re-formatting, or was the damage likely just 1s and 0s?
> 
> Oh well, here goes another couple of days wasted trying to get back up and running again. I will *NOT* be letting Katsuras disk app within 5 miles of my mac ever again.


I think that Apple uses two 4tb ssd style plugin storage units (not true ssds due to their packaging and having the controller on the logic board) to give you 8tb of storage. In order to present as an 8tb disk they need to be doing something like a raid type 0 configuration to make the two storage units appear as one contiguous unit.

That being said, the error you are seeing is acting exactly like a raid 0 array that had its raid configuration broken. All things considered, it would most likely be a bug in apfs that corrupted the configuration.


----------



## davidson

ssnowe said:


> I think that Apple uses two 4tb ssd style plugin storage units (not true ssds due to their packaging and having the controller on the logic board) to give you 8tb of storage. In order to present as an 8tb disk they need to be doing something like a raid type 0 configuration to make the two storage units appear as one contiguous unit.
> 
> That being said, the error you are seeing is acting exactly like a raid 0 array that had its raid configuration broken. All things considered, it would most likely be a bug in apfs that corrupted the configuration.


Thanks for the info, but this is a single 8tb external ssd.


----------



## ssnowe

davidson said:


> Thanks for the info, but this is a single 8tb external ssd



A number of people have mentioned stability and connection issues with multiple external thunderbolt and usb-c peripherals on the mac studio (both max and ultra). If you were doing intensive reads/writes to the ssd and the drive disconnected temporarily for any reason it could have trashed the drive.

That or you could have overheated the drive and it disconnected. Here is an example from an apple support forum page: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/253295356


----------



## method1

davidson said:


> Yeah, I tried every terminal command under the sun in recovery mode. The APFS container is completely screwed (basically not there any longer). Absolutely fkn brilliant, 7TB of data gone just like that, some of it new and unrecoverable. in 20 odd years of dealing with computers heavily each day, this is the first time Ive had the dreaded 'here one second, gone the next' happen that quickly. Literally gone in 2 seconds.
> 
> I'm just hoping it hasnt caused any long standing damage to the brand new drive. Is that a thing - can drive blocks be damaged beyond repair even after re-formatting, or was the damage likely just 1s and 0s?
> 
> Oh well, here goes another couple of days wasted trying to get back up and running again. I will *NOT* be letting Katsuras disk app within 5 miles of my mac ever again.


If it's not too late, try Disk Drill. I've used it to mount drives that disk utility doesn't see at all, and the file recovery works well.


----------



## davidson

ssnowe said:


> A number of people have mentioned stability and connection issues with multiple external thunderbolt and usb-c peripherals on the mac studio (both max and ultra). If you were doing intensive reads/writes to the ssd and the drive disconnected temporarily for any reason it could have trashed the drive.
> 
> That or you could have overheated the drive and it disconnected. Here is an example from an apple support forum page: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/253295356


It's just a standard sata ssd so heating shouldn't be an issue. Besides, it was only a few GB which wouldnt tax it at all. It is possible that the studio threw a fit and disconnected the drive just as I was running the test, but I still think it was the app that caused the issue as the drive didnt unmount. Also, I didnt have a single issue with the 6.xx TB that I'd installed in the previous days. Maybe its a deadly studio + monterey + diskmark + external drive combo issue...I just know people should be caustious when running tests, if bothering at all.

The mini definitely had issues with external drives disconnecting, but I was hoping the studio fixes that and I havent seen it happen here yet. Are there any threads where people have disconnection issues with the studio because I can't find any after a quick bit of googling? If it's a widespread issue I'll definitely consider returning mine.

@method1 I bit the bullet and started over, but cheers anyway.


----------



## BassClef

...in a galaxy far, far away!

Perhaps that is where my new Studio Ultra is hanging out. As soon ask Apple changed my status to "shipped" they showed an April 15 arrival and that is still showing that date. (Friday) The original arrival projection was May 11-25. 

On the same day Apple showed it "shipped", UPS showed a delivery date one week earlier than Apple's, 4/8. Great eh? Within 48 hours (on 4/4) UPS tracking showed the packaged had arrived from the origin of Shenzhen and was at the UPS facility at the Hong Kong airport AND STILL DOES! When 4/8 passed without delivery, UPS changed delivery to PENDING, then later to UNAVAILABLE, and then UNABLE TO DETERMINE, now back to PENDING. 

Apple says it is DEFINITELY in UPS's possession and that UPS will give me a revised delivery date. UPS told me to file a claim, which I did. 

Sorry... just venting!


----------



## rnb_2

BassClef said:


> ...in a galaxy far, far away!
> 
> Perhaps that is where my new Studio Ultra is hanging out. As soon ask Apple changed my status to "shipped" they showed an April 15 arrival and that is still showing that date. (Friday) The original arrival projection was May 11-25.
> 
> On the same day Apple showed it "shipped", UPS showed a delivery date one week earlier than Apple's, 4/8. Great eh? Within 48 hours (on 4/4) UPS tracking showed the packaged had arrived from the origin of Shenzhen and was at the UPS facility at the Hong Kong airport AND STILL DOES! When 4/8 passed without delivery, UPS changed delivery to PENDING, then later to UNAVAILABLE, and then UNABLE TO DETERMINE, now back to PENDING.
> 
> Apple says it is DEFINITELY in UPS's possession and that UPS will give me a revised delivery date. UPS told me to file a claim, which I did.
> 
> Sorry... just venting!


This feels like the current normal process, unfortunately - it seems like UPS gives a date much earlier than Apple, then it holds somewhere for a while, and then the dates eventually line up. I'd guess that Apple's date will probably end up being pretty accurate.


----------



## Electric Moss

Really crossing my fingers that the disconnecting drive isn't a widespread issue as that would be an absolute nightmare. 

I'm curious as to what interfaces people are finding to be super solid with their new Studios...I'll be in a position where I'm going to have to finally retire my FireWire interface that has served me for the last 10 years and I'm having my usual decision fatigue as to where to go next. I'm hearing a lot of positive RME experiences with the new Studio, both USB and TB. I could probably just get away with a UAD Apollo also at this point (using the ADAT for extra inputs when needed). I have 2 UAD satellites already (so I don't need anymore DSP), but it's looking like we'll be running those plugs all natively in the future anyway...


----------



## LATABOM

Any reports on large templates with the studio yet? Like a full orchestra split-articulation BBCSO Pro template with a few synths, intelligent busses with reverb, dynamics, eq etc? Can the 64GB studio oull that sort of sized project off or is it more 128GB territory?


----------



## Fa

BassClef said:


> ...in a galaxy far, far away!
> 
> Perhaps that is where my new Studio Ultra is hanging out. As soon ask Apple changed my status to "shipped" they showed an April 15 arrival and that is still showing that date. (Friday) The original arrival projection was May 11-25.
> 
> On the same day Apple showed it "shipped", UPS showed a delivery date one week earlier than Apple's, 4/8. Great eh? Within 48 hours (on 4/4) UPS tracking showed the packaged had arrived from the origin of Shenzhen and was at the UPS facility at the Hong Kong airport AND STILL DOES! When 4/8 passed without delivery, UPS changed delivery to PENDING, then later to UNAVAILABLE, and then UNABLE TO DETERMINE, now back to PENDING.
> 
> Apple says it is DEFINITELY in UPS's possession and that UPS will give me a revised delivery date. UPS told me to file a claim, which I did.
> 
> Sorry... just venting!


Actually China and Hong Kong were facing during the last days some severe Covid emergencies with lock-down. Perhaps it didn't help...


----------



## colony nofi

Electric Moss said:


> Really crossing my fingers that the disconnecting drive isn't a widespread issue as that would be an absolute nightmare.
> 
> I'm curious as to what interfaces people are finding to be super solid with their new Studios...I'll be in a position where I'm going to have to finally retire my FireWire interface that has served me for the last 10 years and I'm having my usual decision fatigue as to where to go next. I'm hearing a lot of positive RME experiences with the new Studio, both USB and TB. I could probably just get away with a UAD Apollo also at this point (using the ADAT for extra inputs when needed). I have 2 UAD satellites already (so I don't need anymore DSP), but it's looking like we'll be running those plugs all natively in the future anyway...


Don't have my studio yet (2 weeks away still but at least its been posted!), but do have kitted out m1 max laptop. 
I've been using a babyface most of the time and that has never skipped a beat. 
I've also just been testing dante virtual soundcard's new release for m1 and it seems pretty good, but not tried much past using it with some MaxMSP applications.
Finally, we use Focusrite Red Dante / Thunderbolt interfaces at our work studios and I have one at my little work from home setup, and that works perfect.


----------



## Sergievsky

So with my MBPro 2019 giving signs of needing battery replacement, I thought maybe a Mac Studio Ultra can not only serve as my next studio main hub, but maybe even take it out on some live shows, hooked up to somewhat portable UPS or even one of those portable powerstations (inverter w/battery). I don't like replacing laptop batteries, and replacing a powerstation or ups would be a lot easier w/o needing to send your laptop anywhere. I wonder if anyone here plans on taking their Mac Studio out of the studio like this...?


----------



## styledelk

Sergievsky said:


> So with my MBPro 2019 giving signs of needing battery replacement, I thought maybe a Mac Studio Ultra can not only serve as my next studio main hub, but maybe even take it out on some live shows, hooked up to somewhat portable UPS or even one of those portable powerstations (inverter w/battery). I don't like replacing laptop batteries, and replacing a powerstation or ups would be a lot easier w/o needing to send your laptop anywhere. I wonder if anyone here plans on taking their Mac Studio out of the studio like this...?


I may, along with one of those portable monitors.
I'm someone that bought a portable case for my iMac, thinking I'd bring it to Airbnbs. I did that all of once before buying a macbook because it was a pain. 
But a Studio? Maybe it can be small enough to make that easy.


----------



## davidson

Sergievsky said:


> So with my MBPro 2019 giving signs of needing battery replacement, I thought maybe a Mac Studio Ultra can not only serve as my next studio main hub, but maybe even take it out on some live shows, hooked up to somewhat portable UPS or even one of those portable powerstations (inverter w/battery). I don't like replacing laptop batteries, and replacing a powerstation or ups would be a lot easier w/o needing to send your laptop anywhere. I wonder if anyone here plans on taking their Mac Studio out of the studio like this...?


What about a monitor?


----------



## styledelk

davidson said:


> What about a monitor?


Something like this:




__





Lenovo L15 Mobile Monitor | 66E4UCC1US


Lenovo L15 USB-C Mobile Monitor features lightweight at just 860 grams, 15.6 inches of Full HD screen, tilt up all the way to 90-degrees and is easy-to-carry.



www.lenovo.com


----------



## jonnybutter

A very simple question for this crew, but important: are people confident their TB2 stuff is going to work on the new macs (with adapter obviously)? My black magic dock and Antelope interface will be replaced in due time, but they will have to work for a while longer after spending $4-5k on the new computer itself (thinking the MBP w/64 gb of ram). TIA


----------



## rnb_2

jonnybutter said:


> A very simple question for this crew, but important: are people confident their TB2 stuff is going to work on the new macs (with adapter obviously)? My black magic dock and Antelope interface will be replaced in due time, but they will have to work for a while longer after spending $4-5k on the new computer itself (thinking the MBP w/64 gb of ram). TIA


While I don't have a Thunderbolt audio interface, I have been running Thunderbolt and Thunderbolt 2 drives on Thunderbolt 3 Macs with no issues for years. One of the reasons that Thunderbolt devices are so expensive is because it's a standard co-developed between Intel and Apple, with a limited supply of controller chips and fairly rigorous standards to meet in order to use the logo. I honestly haven't seen anything about problems with backward compatibility on Macs, other than the general inability to pass power through a Thunderbolt 2 to 3 adapter (which isn't universal - I have a Thunderbolt drive enclosure that is still working with bus power through the adapter).


----------



## jonnybutter

rnb_2 said:


> While I don't have a Thunderbolt audio interface, I have been running Thunderbolt and Thunderbolt 2 drives on Thunderbolt 3 Macs with no issues for years. One of the reasons that Thunderbolt devices are so expensive is because it's a standard co-developed between Intel and Apple, with a limited supply of controller chips and fairly rigorous standards to meet in order to use the logo. I honestly haven't seen anything about problems with backward compatibility on Macs, other than the general inability to pass power through a Thunderbolt 2 to 3 adapter (which isn't universal - I have a Thunderbolt drive enclosure that is still working with bus power through the adapter).


Thanks Rick. I assumed this would work, but it’s a little dangerous to assume sometimes! Luckily, neither of my TB2 devices need bus power. Cheers!


----------



## Michael Antrum

There are some issues with Windows however. UAD Support:

*


https://help.uaudio.com/hc/en-us/articles/215733823-Apollo-Twin-Apollo-Twin-MkII-Windows-Compatibility#TB3toTB


*


----------



## rnb_2

Michael Antrum said:


> There are some issues with Windows however. UAD Support:
> 
> *
> 
> 
> https://help.uaudio.com/hc/en-us/articles/215733823-Apollo-Twin-Apollo-Twin-MkII-Windows-Compatibility#TB3toTB
> 
> 
> *


That's why I was careful to say "backward compatibility on Macs" - my search didn't turn up much in the way of links to Mac issues, but I didn't have to scroll very far before results were all about Windows problems.


----------



## gsilbers

BassClef said:


> Too funny... I saw that test video this morning. I ordered the Ultra for the 128GB ram and... as a longer term investment (at least 6-8 years) I'm anticipating many developer software updates that will better utilize the M1's multi cores. That would lead to an even wider performance gap between the Ultra and Max in coming years. Although I could be wrong!



Is that possible? Or how much difference can there be?

I’m not used to Macs having that sort of hardware changing updates and don’t know how it works under SOC/Apple silicon


----------



## styledelk

gsilbers said:


> Is that possible? Or how much difference can there be?
> 
> I’m not used to Macs having that sort of hardware changing updates and don’t know how it works under SOC/Apple silicon


I think he meant more that software developers, the sample players, DAW software-- will increasingly have new features that require more CPU and RAM power (more dynamic layers, more mics, acoustic modeling, etc.) that will better take advantage of the increased performance. So it's a gift that can keep giving over time.


----------



## wayne_rowley

styledelk said:


> I think he meant more that software developers, the sample players, DAW software-- will increasingly have new features that require more CPU and RAM power (more dynamic layers, more mics, acoustic modeling, etc.) that will better take advantage of the increased performance. So it's a gift that can keep giving over time.


Or perhaps not...


----------



## styledelk

wayne_rowley said:


> Or perhaps not...



I mean one advancement will be audio computation being done on GPUs eventually, so eventually that could be a real issue. It's also one that optimized software development can help with. Apple may even make some changes to XCode to help with optimizing for that memory structure.


----------



## gsilbers

styledelk said:


> I think he meant more that software developers, the sample players, DAW software-- will increasingly have new features that require more CPU and RAM power (more dynamic layers, more mics, acoustic modeling, etc.) that will better take advantage of the increased performance. So it's a gift that can keep giving over time.


Ah. Makes sense. That my issue w my old Mac Pro.


----------



## supermagtonches

KEM said:


> Once everything is native to Apple Silicon I think the benchmarks will be amazing, but it looks like a lot of the big developers are taking their time to adopt


I'm not sure I would bet on that. Intel has a specific instruction set, AVX, that is optimal for DSP processing. Those are very low level primitives that could take some time to reimplement on M1.


----------



## BassClef

BassClef said:


> ...in a galaxy far, far away!
> 
> Perhaps that is where my new Studio Ultra is hanging out. As soon ask Apple changed my status to "shipped" they showed an April 15 arrival and that is still showing that date. (Friday) The original arrival projection was May 11-25.
> 
> On the same day Apple showed it "shipped", UPS showed a delivery date one week earlier than Apple's, 4/8. Great eh? Within 48 hours (on 4/4) UPS tracking showed the packaged had arrived from the origin of Shenzhen and was at the UPS facility at the Hong Kong airport AND STILL DOES! When 4/8 passed without delivery, UPS changed delivery to PENDING, then later to UNAVAILABLE, and then UNABLE TO DETERMINE, now back to PENDING.
> 
> Apple says it is DEFINITELY in UPS's possession and that UPS will give me a revised delivery date. UPS told me to file a claim, which I did.
> 
> Sorry... just venting!


Finally… after sitting at the Hong Kong airport for 10 days, my Mac Studio has left there and arrived in Taiwan. At least it is moving and not lost!


----------



## BassClef

Jett Hitt said:


> Here are two speed tests conducted on my Mac Studio Max. The first is the 2TB internal, and the second is the Acasis USB 4.0 enclosure with a 2TB WD 750.


Thank you for this report. My new Mac Studio (2TB internal SSD) will be here any day now and I have decided on that same Acasis external enclosure and a 4TB WD Black SN750 SSD.


----------



## Jett Hitt

BassClef said:


> Thank you for this report. My new Mac Studio (2TB internal SSD) will be here any day now and I have decided on that same Acasis external enclosure and a 4TB WD Black SN750 SSD.


I will mention one thing about the Acasis: It gets pretty warm sitting there just connected to my Mac Studio. I don't mean to say hot, but I was a little surprised at the heat that it put out just being connected--not being used, mind you, just connected. I am not sure what I think about this, but since it is my first NVMe drive, I don't have much experience to go on. My regular 2.5 SSDs don't do this.


----------



## BassClef

Jett Hitt said:


> I will mention one thing about the Acasis: It gets pretty warm sitting there just connected to my Mac Studio. I don't mean to say hot, but I was a little surprised at the heat that it put out just being connected--not being used, mind you, just connected. I am not sure what I think about this, but since it is my first NVMe drive, I don't have much experience to go on. My regular 2.5 SSDs don't do this.


Yes...from all I've read, NVMe drives run (even at idle) much warmer than SATA SSDs. Did you apply the "stick on" heat sink pad. If so, did you apply it to the SSD itself or to the underside of the cover? I believe it is to go on the drive, but I've seen some do otherwise, and I ready some reviews (on Amazon) saying that theirs was cool enough without it. I do not know if there is any way to actually monitor the SSD temperature inside of the Acasis enclosure. But the good news is that the WD NS750s come with a 5 year warranty!


----------



## ssnowe

BassClef said:


> Yes...from all I've read, NVMe drives run (even at idle) much warmer than SATA SSDs. Did you apply the "stick on" heat sink pad. If so, did you apply it to the SSD itself or to the underside of the cover? I believe it is to go on the drive, but I've seen some do otherwise, and I ready some reviews (on Amazon) saying that theirs was cool enough without it. I do not know if there is any way to actually monitor the SSD temperature inside of the Acasis enclosure. But the good news is that the WD NS750s come with a 5 year warranty!


I've already lost two nvme drives to heat in external enclosures. They have gotten replaced under warranty but it takes time to put things back the way they were.

At this point I apply the stick on heat tape directly to the drive, put it in the enclosure, make sure the heat tape is in contact with both the drive and the outside of the enclosure and then add a heat sink on top of the external enclosure (i.e. ZZHXSM 2Pcs 80mm Heatsink 80 x 40 x 11mm Black Aluminum at Amazon).

The enclosures and the drives run a lot cooler when set up this way.


----------



## rsg22

Jett Hitt said:


> I will mention one thing about the Acasis: It gets pretty warm sitting there just connected to my Mac Studio. I don't mean to say hot, but I was a little surprised at the heat that it put out just being connected--not being used, mind you, just connected. I am not sure what I think about this, but since it is my first NVMe drive, I don't have much experience to go on. My regular 2.5 SSDs don't do this.


The Envoy Express NVMe enclosure is the same. 980 Pro inside. Runs extremely warm at idle, gets quite hot when in use


----------



## BassClef

ssnowe said:


> I've alreay lost two nvme drives to heat in external enclosures. They have gotten replaced under warranty but it takes time to put things back the way they were.
> 
> At this point I apply the stick on heat tape directly to the drive, put it in the enclosure, make sure the heat tape is in contact with both the drive and the outside of the enclosure and then add a heat sink on top of the external enclosure (i.e. ZZHXSM 2Pcs 80mm Heatsink 80 x 40 x 11mm Black Aluminum at Amazon).
> 
> The enclosures and the drives run a lot cooler when set up this way.


Very interesting. I was wondering if an external heat sink on the enclosure would make a difference, especially since I will not be using the enclosure as a portable device.


----------



## rsg22

ssnowe said:


> ... and then add a heat sink on top of the external enclosure (i.e. ZZHXSM 2Pcs 80mm Heatsink 80 x 40 x 11mm Black Aluminum at Amazon)


Thanks for this - ordered. Just got an external NVMe enclosure and it's scalding hot in use


----------



## Jett Hitt

BassClef said:


> Yes...from all I've read, NVMe drives run (even at idle) much warmer than SATA SSDs. Did you apply the "stick on" heat sink pad. If so, did you apply it to the SSD itself or to the underside of the cover? I believe it is to go on the drive, but I've seen some do otherwise, and I ready some reviews (on Amazon) saying that theirs was cool enough without it. I do not know if there is any way to actually monitor the SSD temperature inside of the Acasis enclosure. But the good news is that the WD NS750s come with a 5 year warranty!


That is good to know about the WD 750! I did apply the tape, though I think I stuck it to the lid. It came with two tapes, and I used the thicker one. It seemed to fit in there fairly snuggly.

On another note, that write time for the Acasis above is considerably slower than what I saw in all of the demostration videos, but since I am just reading sample libraries from it, I didn't really try to figure out why.


----------



## Jett Hitt

BassClef said:


> Very interesting. I was wondering if an external heat sink on the enclosure would make a difference, especially since I will not be using the enclosure as a portable device.


I wonder if you could just set it on something like this?


----------



## ssnowe

Jett Hitt said:


> I wonder if you could just set it on something like this?



Possibly if you turned it upside down. To draw heat away you need full surface contact with the enclosure and then the heat is radiated to the fins. The fins provide surface area for air to flow through and provide a cooling effect.


----------



## Sergievsky

I bought these small usb clip-on fans marketed for cellphones and attach them to my small ext tb cases. they're pretty quiet and keeps them cool. Not this particular one... but similar.


----------



## HCMarkus

Sergievsky said:


> So with my MBPro 2019 giving signs of needing battery replacement, I thought maybe a Mac Studio Ultra can not only serve as my next studio main hub, but maybe even take it out on some live shows, hooked up to somewhat portable UPS or even one of those portable powerstations (inverter w/battery). I don't like replacing laptop batteries, and replacing a powerstation or ups would be a lot easier w/o needing to send your laptop anywhere. I wonder if anyone here plans on taking their Mac Studio out of the studio like this...?


I have an M1 MacBook Air which I carry for live use. This is really the way to go with MainStage. With 16GB of RAM and 1TB SSD, it is fully capable of supporting a live keyboard setup very nicely. The only caveat with this, or any computer used live arises when performing outdoors... sun and computers DO NOT get along! Whenever I do an outdoor show, I carry a small umbrella that clamps on a mic or other stand so I can protect my Air from direct sun. With this setup, I've never run into any heat issues and the fact there are no moving parts makes it pretty rugged.

Taking a Studio on the road? Sure, but a lot more moving parts. As you note, you need a UPS and (of course) a display. Heat would probably not be as much of an issue given the excellent cooling, but it all sounds like a hassle to me. If you are doing a running Broadway show, it would be great. For a one-nighter, not so much.


----------



## Zedcars

I joked in an earlier post about there being an M3 Extreme. Well, it looks like Apple may actually use that ridiculous name for a higher tiered next gen CPU. Rumours say a new M2 variant will be named M2 Extreme with even more cores than the next M2 Ultra. It would make sense for that to be destined for the Apple Silicon Mac Pro. The next gen CPU’s rumoured in the pipeline (with internal codenames):


M2 (Staten): 8 CPU cores and 9/10 graphics cores
M2 Pro (Rhodes Chop): 10/12 CPU cores
M2 Max (Rhodes 1C): 12 CPU cores
M2 Ultra (Rhodes 2C): 24 CPU cores
M2 Extreme (Rhodes 4C): 48 CPU cores


----------



## davidson

So why don't internal drives have this heat issue when in standby too? Also, heat = power, so what kind of power are external nvme enclosures drawing? It must be a fair bit to convert to this much heat.


----------



## Vik

It's interesting, from a user perspective, that there are so many rumors about new Macs out there nowadays (there used to be none or very few). These rumors are probably equally frustrating for Apple, I guess. 

I saw a list of 9 rumored M2 Macs on another site (iMore). Here are some of the rumored Macs they list:


"A 14-inch MacBook Pro with M2 Pro and "M2 Max" chips, codenamed J414. The M2 Max chip has 12 CPU cores and 38 graphics cores, up from 10 CPU cores and 32 graphics cores in the current model, according to the logs. It will also have 64 gigabytes of memory.
A 16-inch MacBook Pro with M2 Pro and M2 Max chips, codenamed J416. The 16-inch MacBook Pro's M2 Max will have the same specifications as the 14-inch MacBook Pro version.
A Mac Pro, codenamed J180. This machine will include a successor to the M1 Ultra chip used in the Mac Studio computer.
A Mac mini with an M1 Pro chip, the same processor used in the entry-level 14-inch and 16-inch MacBook Pros today. That machine is codenamed J374. The company has tested an M1 Max version of the Mac mini as well, but the new Mac Studio may make these machines redundant."

All these rumors can't be true, since even the most convincing of them – those with internal codenames etc – don't agree with each other. Not that that bothers me – we know that they'll keep making Macs that are faster and better, and that there will be M2s, M3s, M4s and so on. We may know some more after the WWDC June 6-10. 
Meanwhile – have anyone shared any interesting benchmark tests of the newest existing Macs + orchestral sample libraries?


----------



## gsilbers

Vik said:


> It's interesting, from a user perspective, that there are so many rumors about new Macs out there nowadays (there used to be none or very few). These rumors are probably equally frustrating for Apple, I guess.
> 
> I saw a list of 9 rumored M2 Macs on another site (iMore). Here are some of the rumored Macs they list:
> 
> 
> "A 14-inch MacBook Pro with M2 Pro and "M2 Max" chips, codenamed J414. The M2 Max chip has 12 CPU cores and 38 graphics cores, up from 10 CPU cores and 32 graphics cores in the current model, according to the logs. It will also have 64 gigabytes of memory.
> A 16-inch MacBook Pro with M2 Pro and M2 Max chips, codenamed J416. The 16-inch MacBook Pro's M2 Max will have the same specifications as the 14-inch MacBook Pro version.
> A Mac Pro, codenamed J180. This machine will include a successor to the M1 Ultra chip used in the Mac Studio computer.
> A Mac mini with an M1 Pro chip, the same processor used in the entry-level 14-inch and 16-inch MacBook Pros today. That machine is codenamed J374. The company has tested an M1 Max version of the Mac mini as well, but the new Mac Studio may make these machines redundant."
> All these rumors can't be true, since even the most convincing of them – those with internal codenames etc – don't agree with each other. Not that that bothers me – we know that they'll keep making Macs that are faster and better, and that there will be M2s, M3s, M4s and so on. We may know some more after the WWDC June 6-10.
> Meanwhile – have anyone shared any interesting benchmark tests of the newest existing Macs + orchestral sample libraries?


Came here to say this.

In a way it seems cool, but form a timeline point of view, the Mac studio is out if sync with the others m series macs. So now we see MacBook Pro coming out with m2 before the studio. For those waiting or just bought the mac studio is like wtf, the m2 chip is so much better I’ll wait for next year studio :/

Also, I just don’t see the appeal of the Mac Pro anymore. Maybe hold the hard drives? If it’s a soc then there isn’t a lot of options for expansion anymore. 
M2 extreme will just have better ram and gpu. And might be likely that it could be used in the nest gen studio.
Gpu expansion might be added somehow but still, render graphics is already top notch w m1 ultra.
And there isn’t a lot of reasons to add a pcie card nowadays.


----------



## samphony

jonnybutter said:


> A very simple question for this crew, but important: are people confident their TB2 stuff is going to work on the new macs (with adapter obviously)? My black magic dock and Antelope interface will be replaced in due time, but they will have to work for a while longer after spending $4-5k on the new computer itself (thinking the MBP w/64 gb of ram). TIA


Yes I use the RME UFX+ via Thunderbolt 2 to 3 adapter.


----------



## Alex Fraser

gsilbers said:


> Came here to say this.
> 
> In a way it seems cool, but form a timeline point of view, the Mac studio is out if sync with the others m series macs. So now we see MacBook Pro coming out with m2 before the studio. For those waiting or just bought the mac studio is like wtf, the m2 chip is so much better I’ll wait for next year studio :/
> 
> Also, I just don’t see the appeal of the Mac Pro anymore. Maybe hold the hard drives? If it’s a soc then there isn’t a lot of options for expansion anymore.
> M2 extreme will just have better ram and gpu. And might be likely that it could be used in the nest gen studio.
> Gpu expansion might be added somehow but still, render graphics is already top notch w m1 ultra.
> And there isn’t a lot of reasons to add a pcie card nowadays.


You're right - it does put a question mark over what any Mac Pro actually is, or who it's for.
Logic at this points suggests a monster SOC with internal drive bays and...er...expensive wheels?

I think Apple's part goal with the studio/ultra was to get a lot of Mac users - currently nursing older Mac Pros - to dust off their collective wallets. Perhaps any new Mac Pro will be a halo product. Required by few and achingly expensive.


----------



## yellow_lupine

Anybody using Studio One with VSL libraries? Do they work well in Rosetta?


----------



## samphony

The only argument getting a higher tier mac than the current studio is cores and ram. At least for me. I canceled my mac studio order only because my current workflow allows me to get by with the highest m1max 16” config and because the possibility to see a higher core count mac in the not too distant future.


----------



## rnb_2

Zedcars said:


> I joked in an earlier post about there being an M3 Extreme. Well, it looks like Apple may actually use that ridiculous name for a higher tiered next gen CPU. Rumours say a new M2 variant will be named M2 Extreme with even more cores than the next M2 Ultra. It would make sense for that to be destined for the Apple Silicon Mac Pro. The next gen CPU’s rumoured in the pipeline (with internal codenames):
> 
> 
> M2 (Staten): 8 CPU cores and 9/10 graphics cores
> M2 Pro (Rhodes Chop): 10/12 CPU cores
> M2 Max (Rhodes 1C): 12 CPU cores
> M2 Ultra (Rhodes 2C): 24 CPU cores
> M2 Extreme (Rhodes 4C): 48 CPU cores





Vik said:


> It's interesting, from a user perspective, that there are so many rumors about new Macs out there nowadays (there used to be none or very few). These rumors are probably equally frustrating for Apple, I guess.
> 
> I saw a list of 9 rumored M2 Macs on another site (iMore). Here are some of the rumored Macs they list:
> 
> 
> "A 14-inch MacBook Pro with M2 Pro and "M2 Max" chips, codenamed J414. The M2 Max chip has 12 CPU cores and 38 graphics cores, up from 10 CPU cores and 32 graphics cores in the current model, according to the logs. It will also have 64 gigabytes of memory.
> A 16-inch MacBook Pro with M2 Pro and M2 Max chips, codenamed J416. The 16-inch MacBook Pro's M2 Max will have the same specifications as the 14-inch MacBook Pro version.
> A Mac Pro, codenamed J180. This machine will include a successor to the M1 Ultra chip used in the Mac Studio computer.
> A Mac mini with an M1 Pro chip, the same processor used in the entry-level 14-inch and 16-inch MacBook Pros today. That machine is codenamed J374. The company has tested an M1 Max version of the Mac mini as well, but the new Mac Studio may make these machines redundant."
> All these rumors can't be true, since even the most convincing of them – those with internal codenames etc – don't agree with each other. Not that that bothers me – we know that they'll keep making Macs that are faster and better, and that there will be M2s, M3s, M4s and so on. We may know some more after the WWDC June 6-10.
> Meanwhile – have anyone shared any interesting benchmark tests of the newest existing Macs + orchestral sample libraries?


Surprised by the CPU core count increase in the higher-end chips, given that everything is as you’d expect on the base M2 following on from the A15 (double the performance cores and GPU cores, same as M1). The GPU core count on the more powerful variants is also as expected, so it’s interesting to see the deviations from the pattern on the CPU side.

I’m wondering if they’re doing that, at least partially, for marketing reasons. If each M2 core isn’t much faster than the M1’s, it doesn’t look *that* impressive as an upgrade if the core count stays static. Add two more cores, though, and now the base (binned) M2 Pro config has 33% more cores and is core-equivalent to the non-binned M1, and the non-binned Pro, Max, and Ultra start out 25% faster than the M1 equivalent before any per-core performance improvements.


----------



## HCMarkus

Alex Fraser said:


> I think Apple's part goal with the studio/ultra was to get a lot of Mac users - currently nursing older Mac Pros - to dust off their collective wallets.


Worked on me.


----------



## synthetic

ssnowe said:


> Possibly if you turned it upside down. To draw heat away you need full surface contact with the enclosure and then the heat is radiated to the fins. The fins provide surface area for air to flow through and provide a cooling effect.


I was seriously thinking about this. Only I was going to put it on a water cooler that you can get for gaming laptops. 

My Ultra is back ordered until July. But China is a mess right now. Imagine shutting down New York City for weeks, what that would do to the economy and supply chain in the US. Happening there right now.


----------



## BassClef

Mac Studio Ultra has arrived! Updating MacOS now… will be doing a clean install rather than using Migration Assistant from my 8 year old iMac. Laissez les bons temps rouler!


----------



## rnb_2

BassClef said:


> Mac Studio Ultra has arrived! Updating MacOS now… will be doing a clean install rather than using Migration Assistant from my 8 year old iMac. Laissez les bons temps rouler!


Glad that my prediction held up! I don't know if Apple is moving units to a temporary holding location and then waiting to send larger quantities overseas at once, but it sure seems like they're doing something like that. So many similar stories over the last few weeks: Apple says it will arrive on this date, but UPS says it will be earlier, but now it's just sitting somewhere, and UPS has changed to "we have no idea", and then it shows up on the date Apple gave.


----------



## BassClef

ssnowe said:


> I've already lost two nvme drives to heat in external enclosures. They have gotten replaced under warranty but it takes time to put things back the way they were.
> 
> At this point I apply the stick on heat tape directly to the drive, put it in the enclosure, make sure the heat tape is in contact with both the drive and the outside of the enclosure and then add a heat sink on top of the external enclosure (i.e. ZZHXSM 2Pcs 80mm Heatsink 80 x 40 x 11mm Black Aluminum at Amazon).
> 
> The enclosures and the drives run a lot cooler when set up this way.


I bough the two-pack from Amazon for 8 bucks. I just got my Mac Studio an hour ago and will be setting it up (no migration) over the next couple of days. Here is what the Acasis USB 4.0 enclosure (with a 4TB WD SN750 inside) looks like with two of the heat sinks. They are not attached yet, just sitting there. I want to gauge temps before deciding on adding one or two of these heat sinks to the enclosure.


----------



## Flyo

Is any advantage in USB4 enclosures over Thunder3 on this Apple M1?


----------



## Michael Antrum

One thing I'd particularly keen to know is how the Mac Studio stacks up over a Intel i9 12900k or AMD 5950 for orchestral mockups.

I've got a Studio Max 64gb/2TB on order which should be here in July, but I've been hearing things that the bench marks have been cherry picked, and the difference isn't that apparent. 

I'm not going to pat £ 2k plus for 64 Gb RAM in a Mac Studio and a PC with 128gb vs a Studio with 64gb would be an interesting comparison.


----------



## BassClef

BassClef said:


> I bough the two-pack from Amazon for 8 bucks. I just got my Mac Studio an hour ago and will be setting it up (no migration) over the next couple of days. Here is what the Acasis USB 4.0 enclosure (with a 4TB WD SN750 inside) looks like with two of the heat sinks. They are not attached yet, just sitting there. I want to gauge temps before deciding on adding one or two of these heat sinks to the enclosure.


I just installed the Acacis enclosure with the 4TB WD SN750 NVMe. I have not loaded any files yet. It is warm at idle, registering 37.8 degrees Celsius. I'll see what it reads when I start transferring large Libraries from my older SATA SSDs. Then I'll add one of those heat sinks and see if it makes a difference.


----------



## Jett Hitt

So after mentioning it before, I bought the $11.00 version of this:



It arrived today, and I placed my Acasis enclosure on it. The difference after just one hour is remarkable. I highly recommend this for pulling heat off of the drive.


----------



## BassClef

That's great. Did you attach it with thermal pads or is the Acacias just sitting on it?


----------



## Jett Hitt

BassClef said:


> That's great. Did you attach it with thermal pads or is the Acacias just sitting on it?


It is just sitting on it. I couldn't believe the difference it made.


----------



## KEM

I hope the next Mac Pro keeps the cheese grater design, it’s honestly my favorite design Apple has ever done


----------



## Jett Hitt

KEM said:


> I hope the next Mac Pro keeps the cheese grater design, it’s honestly my favorite design Apple has ever done


I suspect the next Mac Pro will be priced like a Ferrari, and other than RAM, I doubt we’ll have much need of what it offers.


----------



## Soundbed

This dual M.2 enclosure for TB3 is suddenly $127.5 ... the cheapest in over 120 days.


----------



## KEM

Jett Hitt said:


> I suspect the next Mac Pro will be priced like a Ferrari, and other than RAM, I doubt we’ll have much need of what it offers.



Well yeah, but that doesn’t mean I won’t want it lol


----------



## Jett Hitt

Soundbed said:


> This dual M.2 enclosure for TB3 is suddenly $127.5 ... the cheapest in over 120 days.



That’s a good price. It was $150 last I looked, though as hot as the Acasis gets with one NVMe, I can’t imagine having two in such a little box.


----------



## clonewar

gsilbers said:


> Also, I just don’t see the appeal of the Mac Pro anymore. Maybe hold the hard drives? If it’s a soc then there isn’t a lot of options for expansion anymore.
> M2 extreme will just have better ram and gpu. And might be likely that it could be used in the nest gen studio.
> Gpu expansion might be added somehow but still, render graphics is already top notch w m1 ultra.
> And there isn’t a lot of reasons to add a pcie card nowadays.


I'm waiting on the Mac Studio until we know for sure what the next Mac Pro will offer. For me it'll mainly be the ability to add internal storage and PCIe cards. It'll be interesting if Apple has a way to add RAM or GPU down the line, but I'm not counting on it.


----------



## gsilbers

clonewar said:


> I'm waiting on the Mac Studio until we know for sure what the next Mac Pro will offer. For me it'll mainly be the ability to add internal storage and PCIe cards. It'll be interesting if Apple has a way to add RAM or GPU down the line, but I'm not counting on it.


Since they are going the SOC route it’ll be interesting to see that also.
I could see the extra storage but not sure about the pcie or ram. 
It might be the days of adding stuff might be over. Then again, that Mac Pro chassis is huge. Woudnt make sense having it filled about a quarter of it since those chips are small. 

I’ll wait also, but mostly to save up


----------



## simfoe

I think I'm going to plump for an M1 Max with 64G RAM for £2,399. I have a PC with 32G RAM I can slave in (and can expand this up to 64G as well). So I'd be sorted for RAM.

Surely the specs of the M1 Max would be more than enough in most use cases for several years to come? I can't really justify another £2000 for double the power when, in the real world, is it needed?


----------



## Michael Antrum

I’d really try to up the drive to 1tb at least. I think you might regret not doing that….


----------



## rnb_2

Michael Antrum said:


> I’d really try to up the drive to 1tb at least. I think you might regret not doing that….


Agreed - I've lived with 512GB machines, and while it's manageable, you have to pay attention to it. Going to 1TB should keep space management from being a daily concern.


----------



## KEM

1tb was not enough for me on my MacBook Pro, by the time I got my Mac Studio I only had about 30gb free, I went with 4tb on the Mac Studio just to be extra safe


----------



## simfoe

Michael Antrum said:


> I’d really try to up the drive to 1tb at least. I think you might regret not doing that….


Fair point - I have my libraries generally spread across a few SSD's already so was thinking I might not need 1TB. But for an extra couple of hundred quid it's probably worth it.


----------



## LatinXCombo

Jett Hitt said:


> I suspect the next Mac Pro will be priced like a Ferrari


_¿Por qué no los dos?_


----------



## ssnowe

On my mac strudio I was noticing that the drive lights on my external ssd's were blinking a lot when they weren't being used. It turned out it was Spotlight scanning and indexing the files. This was occurring repeatedly.

Digging a little deeper I found that Spotlight was creating a rather large index of these files (sample libraries have hundreds or thousands of small files) and running a cpu core fairly hard to do it (you can see this in Activity Monitor, mds_stores under CPU for cpu usage and mds_stores under Disk for disk usage).

Seeing as I really have no need for Spotlight to spend the time/energy/disk space to index these files I went into System Preferences/Spotlight/Privacy and added my external drives to the "Prevent ..." list. Additionally, I disabled a lot of categories in the "Search Results" list as, again, why have Sporlight competing against me when I am writing music in my daw.

Since doing this I no longer see unexpected read/write activity on my external drives. That, and the Spotlight index file has dropped considerably in size.

While some users may not care, I don't see any good reason to have spotlight continually hammering my external drives and using up disk and cpu resources that I could apply to other things (i.e. real-time playback of a large template in my daw).


----------



## BassClef

ssnowe said:


> On my mac strudio I was noticing that the drive lights on my external ssd's were blinking a lot when they weren't being used. It turned out it was Spotlight scanning and indexing the files. This was occurring repeatedly.
> 
> Digging a little deeper I found that Spotlight was creating a rather large index of these files (sample libraries have hundreds or thousands of small files) and running a cpu core fairly hard to do it (you can see this in Activity Monitor, mds_stores under CPU for cpu usage and mds_stores under Disk for disk usage).
> 
> Seeing as I really have no need for Spotlight to spend the time/energy/disk space to index these files I went into System Preferences/Spotlight/Privacy and added my external drives to the "Prevent ..." list. Additionally, I disabled a lot of categories in the "Search Results" list as, again, why have Sporlight competing against me when I am writing music in my daw.
> 
> Since doing this I no longer see unexpected read/write activity on my external drives. That, and the Spotlight index file has dropped considerably in size.
> 
> While some users may not care, I don't see any good reason to have spotlight continually hammering my external drives and using up disk and cpu resources that I could apply to other things (i.e. real-time playback of a large template in my daw).


Great post... I noticed this as well on my new Mac Studio that I am currently setting up. I also have a new Acacis enclosure with a 4TB WD SN750 NVMe. I did not know that you could exclude an external storage device from Spotlight. Like you, I have no need for a search feature on the external drive containing only VI libraries.


----------



## Jett Hitt

BassClef said:


> Great post... I noticed this as well on my new Mac Studio that I am currently setting up. I also have a new Acacis enclosure with a 4TB WD SN750 NVMe. I did not know that you could exclude an external storage device from Spotlight. Like you, I have no need for a search feature on the external drive containing only VI libraries.


I didn't know this either. I just disabled all of my sample drives and folders. Thanks @ssnowe


----------



## HCMarkus

Spotlight should be pretty much a one-and-done for a drive containing samples. Although it does use some CPU when setting upon new machine, it shouldn't use much, if any, horsepower after the initial run is done. And it provides a super-quick way to find files that Kontakt is looking for. So having it index VI libraries might not _always_ be a waste.


----------



## ssnowe

HCMarkus said:


> Spotlight should be pretty much a one-and-done for a drive containing samples. Although it does use some CPU when setting upon new machine, it shouldn't use much, if any, horsepower after the initial run is done. And it provides a super-quick way to find files that Kontakt is looking for. So having it index VI libraries might not _always_ be a waste.


That would be the expected behavior.

Based on monitoring I found it continually going back to the external drives and rescanning them and using a good amount of a cpu core to do it (mds_store cpu category continually showing high cpu usage). This may be an artifact associated with externally mounted drives.

In any given library, Kontakt should be requesting files directly by path name negating the need for an indexed search lookup.


----------



## jcrosby

HCMarkus said:


> Spotlight should be pretty much a one-and-done for a drive containing samples. Although it does use some CPU when setting upon new machine, it shouldn't use much, if any, horsepower after the initial run is done. And it provides a super-quick way to find files that Kontakt is looking for. So having it index VI libraries might not _always_ be a waste.


I've left spotlight enabled for over a decade. Other than the initial index; which you should let run overnight the 1st day you get your machine; Spotlight's never interfered with me delivering commercial work. Spotlight's never eaten resources Logic relies on. (In fact this is exactly WHY Apple Silicone has performance cores and efficiency cores. Spotlight is the kind of process that efficiency cores are designed for.)

In fact Spotlight can make life easier with Kontakt, as Kontakt can reference the Spotlight index if you encounter a scenario where you get the missing samples dialogue. Hit _search_ _spotlight_ and 9 out of 10 times the broken sample links are resolved instantaneously.


----------



## davidson

I had an issue where spotlight and mdsworker would constantly be going at it on my 2013 MP, even without external drives connected. I couldn't get to the bottom of it and just lived with it for years. On the M series processors, spotlight is indeed a one and done scenario (for me). I already feel like I couldn't live without my externals being included in spotlight searches again.


----------



## charlieclouser

ssnowe said:


> On my mac strudio I was noticing that the drive lights on my external ssd's were blinking a lot when they weren't being used. It turned out it was Spotlight scanning and indexing the files. This was occurring repeatedly.
> 
> Digging a little deeper I found that Spotlight was creating a rather large index of these files (sample libraries have hundreds or thousands of small files) and running a cpu core fairly hard to do it (you can see this in Activity Monitor, mds_stores under CPU for cpu usage and mds_stores under Disk for disk usage).
> 
> Seeing as I really have no need for Spotlight to spend the time/energy/disk space to index these files I went into System Preferences/Spotlight/Privacy and added my external drives to the "Prevent ..." list. Additionally, I disabled a lot of categories in the "Search Results" list as, again, why have Sporlight competing against me when I am writing music in my daw.
> 
> Since doing this I no longer see unexpected read/write activity on my external drives. That, and the Spotlight index file has dropped considerably in size.
> 
> While some users may not care, I don't see any good reason to have spotlight continually hammering my external drives and using up disk and cpu resources that I could apply to other things (i.e. real-time playback of a large template in my daw).


Once Spotlight has a complete index of your drives, it shouldn't keep hammering on them all the time - only when files are added / moved / etc. I leave Spotlight enabled for all eight of my SSDs in my MultiDock (32tb total), and with the massive and bright LED rings around the drive bays it's quite obvious (from across the room!) when even the slightest tickle of activity is happening. 

Yes, there is a lot of drive activity after a new drive is added for the first time, or a ton of new libraries are installed, but once it's completed the indexing that activity basically ceases. If you're just setting up a new computer then it's going to grind on the drives until indexing is completed, but then it should calm down.

I leave Spotlight indexing enabled because Logic (and EXS / Logic Sampler) uses Spotlight indexes to locate files that may have been moved. That's why there's no such thing in Logic as a "where is the sample XXX?" dialog - only the "I found multiple copies of sample XXX, which do you want to use?" dialog. And if I ever DO see the "sample XXX not found" alert then I know, *for sure*, that the sample in question is not located on any locally-mounted drive.


----------



## Luka

Received my Studio Display! Now I must wait 2 more months to get the computer


----------



## odod

WTA, is it better the mac studio or macmini M1? I need a powerful machine to replace mac pro late 2013 ( i want to sell it)


----------



## davidson

odod said:


> WTA, is it better the mac studio or macmini M1? I need a powerful machine to replace mac pro late 2013 ( i want to sell it)


Yes it's worth it, purely for the extra ram. If I could choose more ram in a mini, I'd have been much happier with my cheaper mini. And yes again, its powerful - around 3x as powerful as my old 6-core 2013 pro, but less than 50% more powerful than the m1 mini, so...


----------



## Soundbed

Jett Hitt said:


> That’s a good price. It was $150 last I looked, though as hot as the Acasis gets with one NVMe, I can’t imagine having two in such a little box.


I got it. I’ll monitor the temps. 


jcrosby said:


> I've left spotlight enabled for over a decade. Other than the initial index; which you should let run overnight the 1st day you get your machine; Spotlight's never interfered with me delivering commercial work. Spotlight's never eaten resources Logic relies on. (In fact this is exactly WHY Apple Silicone has performance cores and efficiency cores. Spotlight is the kind of process that efficiency cores are designed for.)
> 
> In fact Spotlight can make life easier with Kontakt, as Kontakt can reference the Spotlight index if you encounter a scenario where you get the missing samples dialogue. Hit _search_ _spotlight_ and 9 out of 10 times the broken sample links are resolved instantaneously.


Me too. Spotlight is on for me as well.


----------



## BassClef

Waves Plugins issue with latest Mac Studio, MacOS (12.3.1) and latest Logic (10.7.3)

Remember... I'm just a hobbyist who does not have to worry about what may occasionally fail in my music hobby.

I just yesterday finished setting up my new Mac Studio, from scratch, not using the migration assistant. The last "music production" software I needed to install was a couple of Waves plugins. I chatted with their tech folks (very nice and helpful) who advised me of the following. My plugins were their older version 12 and I had not paid for the updated version 13 ($39 for another year) which I would have done EXCEPT FOR...

I was told that although most of their products now run on M1 silicon (some with and some without Rosetta) and Logic, they are not yet fully authorised for the latest MacOS (12.3.1) or the latest Logic (10.7.3) which I am running. They said I could buy the upgrade and try it to see what happens but I chose not to at this time and did not reinstall the older version 12 plugins either, which of course they said would not work. When I bought those plugins about 18 months ago, I did not realise that after a year, an update plan had to be purchased for them to maintain compatibility with updated OS and DAW versions.

Then I opened some older Logic projects that used these Waves plugins. When loading, I of course got the warning box indicating that those plugins were missing. I clicked "OK" and Logic crashed. I relaunched Logic again and sometimes it opened on the second attempt to load the project. Sometimes it took a third time. Once I got this projects open, I deleted the Waves plugins and thereafter, they loaded fine.

FYI...


----------



## DervishCapkiner

BassClef said:


> Waves Plugins issue with latest Mac Studio, MacOS (12.3.1) and latest Logic (10.7.3)
> 
> Remember... I'm just a hobbyist who does not have to worry about what may occasionally fail in my music hobby.
> 
> I just yesterday finished setting up my new Mac Studio, from scratch, not using the migration assistant. The last "music production" software I needed to install was a couple of Waves plugins. I chatted with their tech folks (very nice and helpful) who advised me of the following. My plugins were their older version 12 and I had not paid for the updated version 13 ($39 for another year) which I would have done EXCEPT FOR...
> 
> I was told that although most of their products now run on M1 silicon (some with and some without Rosetta) and Logic, they are not yet fully authorised for the latest MacOS (12.3.1) or the latest Logic (10.7.3) which I am running. They said I could buy the upgrade and try it to see what happens but I chose not to at this time and did not reinstall the older version 12 plugins either, which of course they said would not work. When I bought those plugins about 18 months ago, I did not realise that after a year, an update plan had to be purchased for them to maintain compatibility with updated OS and DAW versions.
> 
> Then I opened some older Logic projects that used these Waves plugins. When loading, I of course got the warning box indicating that those plugins were missing. I clicked "OK" and Logic crashed. I relaunched Logic again and sometimes it opened on the second attempt to load the project. Sometimes it took a third time. Once I got this projects open, I deleted the Waves plugins and thereafter, they loaded fine.
> 
> FYI...


I have stopped using waves plugins for this reason. Being urged to pay for the upgrade and see what happens is not a viable business model. Purchasing a product and it not being obvious that you're entering a rental agreement... that's Mafia shit as far as I'm concerned. Please excuse my language but I did not have as pleasant an experience with waves and suffice to say there are plenty of products that are better. 

It's not the same thing at all but I also decided at that point that I no longer wanted to rent any products indefinitely and moved over from slate all inclusive to buying the fabfilter bundle and wished I had not wasted my money in the first place.

Sincere apologies for highjacking the post.


----------



## HCMarkus

No issues with Waves v13 here, running within Digital Performer Native on latest build of Monterey.

*I WUP only when necessary*. If your system remains fairly stable, updating is rarely required. In this case, V13, running native on Apple Silicon, was an essential update for me (from v9/10), but the cost was nominal considering the utility of the myriad Waves plugins I own and regularly use. I WUPped during a WUP sale around Thanksgiving, anticipating the move to a new Mac.

Waves has a plugin for just about any situation. I've been using their stuff for almost 20 years and, at this point, probably have a majority of their plugins. The fact that they were among the first to offer Apple Silicon compatibility across their line helped me have the confidence to make the leap to the Mac Studio for my workplace.

For example, as part of the transition, I replaced Antares Auto Tune with Waves Tune Real Time. Waves cost me $30, plus I got another plugin for free. Auto Tune would have run me $130, and when they will deliver AS Native compatibility is unknown (last update FAQ is dated June 2021). For engineers working with vocalists with questionable pitch precision (if you run a studio, believe me, it happens), real-time tuning works great alongside DP's pitch layer (for fixing those really "out there" notes) to deliver a quick, decent-sounding vocal.

So, I paid some money to get WUPped. But, for me, it was money well spent. Not to say I don't appreciate the free updates provided by SoundToys, NI (Kontakt only to date), Spitfire, Eventide and others. But none of these companies (except, in some regards, NI) offer the breadth and depth of the Waves line, and their products generally cost me more up-front.


----------



## colony nofi

Mac Studio ultra (128GB Ram / 2TB internal storage) received here yesterday. Used Migration assistant from brand new install on M1X MBP16 64GB / 8TB. Samples are external though (internal on the MBP as I'm trying to run that machine LEAN.
Of course there's the usual pain of sample library locations - but I'm getting there slowly. 
But it does mean I can run any tests that people send me. I'm not in a position to take time trying to build something from scratch, but I'll modify as necessary to get working something that feels like it will help the community. 
Initial tests of some NATIVE cubase + native plugins - is that the machine will do everything that I need. I hope that I can get 95% of stuff working in rosetta to allow me to work on old projects, but if not I'll be keeping my old mac pro around for a year or so.


----------



## Luka

colony nofi said:


> Mac Studio ultra (128GB Ram / 2TB internal storage) received here yesterday.


What was your original estimated arrival date? Did it come sooner than expected?


----------



## emilio_n

colony nofi said:


> Mac Studio ultra (128GB Ram / 2TB internal storage)


Waiting for the same config here... Until June, sadly.
Maybe the WWDC will make me cancel the order and wait for a Mac Pro... who knows.


----------



## davidson

BassClef said:


> Waves Plugins issue with latest Mac Studio, MacOS (12.3.1) and latest Logic (10.7.3)
> 
> Remember... I'm just a hobbyist who does not have to worry about what may occasionally fail in my music hobby.
> 
> I just yesterday finished setting up my new Mac Studio, from scratch, not using the migration assistant. The last "music production" software I needed to install was a couple of Waves plugins. I chatted with their tech folks (very nice and helpful) who advised me of the following. My plugins were their older version 12 and I had not paid for the updated version 13 ($39 for another year) which I would have done EXCEPT FOR...
> 
> I was told that although most of their products now run on M1 silicon (some with and some without Rosetta) and Logic, they are not yet fully authorised for the latest MacOS (12.3.1) or the latest Logic (10.7.3) which I am running. They said I could buy the upgrade and try it to see what happens but I chose not to at this time and did not reinstall the older version 12 plugins either, which of course they said would not work. When I bought those plugins about 18 months ago, I did not realise that after a year, an update plan had to be purchased for them to maintain compatibility with updated OS and DAW versions.
> 
> Then I opened some older Logic projects that used these Waves plugins. When loading, I of course got the warning box indicating that those plugins were missing. I clicked "OK" and Logic crashed. I relaunched Logic again and sometimes it opened on the second attempt to load the project. Sometimes it took a third time. Once I got this projects open, I deleted the Waves plugins and thereafter, they loaded fine.
> 
> FYI...


Well at least now you'll understand the hundreds of 'WUP is Bullsh!t' threads on every forum


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

davidson said:


> Well at least now you'll understand the hundreds of 'WUP is Bullsh!t' threads on every forum


It is indeed BS! However, I recently caved when Waves had a flash upgrade sale a couple of months ago....WUP'd my v9 Gold bundle to Platinum for $20. Hypocritical of me, but I admit I love a few of those plugins.


----------



## Luka

emilio_n said:


> Waiting for the same config here... Until June, sadly.
> Maybe the WWDC will make me cancel the order and wait for a Mac Pro... who knows.


Mine is middle of June also, but I see multiple people on the internet saying they got it delivered about a month early! So I'm hoping we'll also get it earlier than expected. 🤞


----------



## Spid

colony nofi said:


> Mac Studio ultra (128GB Ram / 2TB internal storage) received here yesterday. Used Migration assistant from brand new install on M1X MBP16 64GB / 8TB. Samples are external though (internal on the MBP as I'm trying to run that machine LEAN.
> Of course there's the usual pain of sample library locations - but I'm getting there slowly.
> But it does mean I can run any tests that people send me. I'm not in a position to take time trying to build something from scratch, but I'll modify as necessary to get working something that feels like it will help the community.
> Initial tests of some NATIVE cubase + native plugins - is that the machine will do everything that I need. I hope that I can get 95% of stuff working in rosetta to allow me to work on old projects, but if not I'll be keeping my old mac pro around for a year or so.


Nice, will you use the Mac Studio as Main machine or the MBP as Main machine with Mac Studio as a server?

I have the same MBP16 64GB/8TB… and wonder if I would need a Mac Studio server to host more samples


----------



## emilio_n

Luka said:


> Mine is middle of June also, but I see multiple people on the internet saying they got it delivered about a month early! So I'm hoping we'll also get it earlier than expected. 🤞


I hope too! I am in Hong Kong, so should be a little bit faster...


----------



## BassClef

colony nofi said:


> Mac Studio ultra (128GB Ram / 2TB internal storage) received here yesterday. Used Migration assistant from brand new install on M1X MBP16 64GB / 8TB. Samples are external though (internal on the MBP as I'm trying to run that machine LEAN.
> Of course there's the usual pain of sample library locations - but I'm getting there slowly.
> But it does mean I can run any tests that people send me. I'm not in a position to take time trying to build something from scratch, but I'll modify as necessary to get working something that feels like it will help the community.
> Initial tests of some NATIVE cubase + native plugins - is that the machine will do everything that I need. I hope that I can get 95% of stuff working in rosetta to allow me to work on old projects, but if not I'll be keeping my old mac pro around for a year or so.


I have the same config... ordered day of announcement... original Apple delivery date was May 11-25... actually arrived April 15... MADE IN MALAYSIA... shipped from Shenzhen, China.


----------



## colony nofi

BassClef said:


> I have the same config... ordered day of announcement... original Apple delivery date was May 11-25... actually arrived April 15... MADE IN MALAYSIA... shipped from Shenzhen, China.


oh I didn't look where mine was made. Was shipped from shenzhen though. Ordered a couple hours after the announcement.


----------



## colony nofi

Spid said:


> Nice, will you use the Mac Studio as Main machine or the MBP as Main machine with Mac Studio as a server?
> 
> I have the same MBP16 64GB/8TB… and wonder if I would need a Mac Studio server to host more samples


No the machines are basically one for studio and one for the road. They'll (mostly) mirror each other, except the laptop has 6TB of samples on board where as the studio has an external 8TB NVME thunderbolt drive for samples. I'll likely take the studio on the road for important gigs as a backup (its small enough to take with me.... I've travelled with trash cans since 2013 and before then 4xmac minis networked to a laptop!) , but so far the laptop looks like it can handle most of what i will need it to. I have some workflows that are alittle different to many here (experiential multichannel (immersive) installations of our sound + music. So mixing dolby atmos (or more likely, using SPAT revolution) on board, as well as many sample instruments and tonnes of routing. 

I have embraced single computer workflows for at least the last 5 years and if I can help it I won't go back. I already have complicated workflows and tech without needing to worry about multiples of multiple machines!


----------



## colony nofi

Luka said:


> What was your original estimated arrival date? Did it come sooner than expected?


Yes - was originally meant to come 28th april to 5 may.


----------



## tony10000

I posted this one in the DAW thread. Any Logic users on Mac Studio noticing performance improvements?

New in Logic Pro 10.7.3​New Features and enhancements

Enables spatial audio monitoring with dynamic head tracking on AirPods Max, AirPods Pro, AirPods (3rd Generation), and Beats Fit Pro (requires a Mac with Apple silicon with macOS Monterey version 12.3 or later).
Monitor through the Apple binaural renderer, which provides a more accurate preview of spatial audio playback on Apple Music (requires macOS Monterey version 12.3 or later).
*Optimized performance for M1 Max and M1 Ultra on the new Mac Studio.*


----------



## HCMarkus

Just wanted to loop back to that question re: Spotlight indexing for sample libraries. 

All I can say is, it has sure come in handy as I resurrect a project transferred across from my 5,1 Mac Pro. Any missing samples are found lickety-split by Spotlight. Maybe there is a better way, but Spotlight is simple, works and is very quick, so I don't have to turn my attention from the score I'm creating. I can worry about solving the issue more permanently after this project is completed.


----------



## OleJoergensen

I tried turn on the Spotlight index for my external sample drives, Mac pro 2013. The indexing was done within few hours. The problem is, when I start up a Logic file, Spotlight works on full speed when the samples are loading from the external drives, so loading Logic file takes much longer. 
So I turned Spotlight index for those drives off again. A short moment I hoped it would speed up loading the BBCSO player.


----------



## HCMarkus

OleJoergensen said:


> I tried turn on the Spotlight index for my external sample drives, Mac pro 2013. The indexing was done within few hours. The problem is, when I start up a Logic file, Spotlight works on full speed when the samples are loading from the external drives, so loading Logic file takes much longer.
> So I turned Spotlight index for those drives off again. A short moment I hoped it would speed up loading the BBCSO player.


That's strange. My VI samples are on an external Thunderbolt NVMe drive. I wonder why that is happening for you. Seems you are not alone in this regard, but others like me don't have an issue. Hmmm.

I'm running DP, not Logic. But that shouldn't make a difference.


----------



## Vik

Did you try a batch resave, OJ?


----------



## OleJoergensen

HCMarkus said:


> That's strange. My VI samples are on an external Thunderbolt NVMe drive. I wonder why that is happening for you. Seems you are not alone in this regard, but others like me don't have an issue. Hmmm.
> 
> I'm running DP, not Logic. But that shouldn't make a difference.


It is strange. I have a 4th external ssd for Logic and Finale files. When I start the Mac up, Spotlight does a quick index. Al 4 ssd a hosted on an Blackmagic thunderbolt unit.


----------



## OleJoergensen

Vik said:


> Did you try a batch resave, OJ?


Im not sure if I batch resaved al libraries…


----------



## jneebz

Hmm….ordered a Studio Max 64GB but the thought of an M2 Mac Mini has got me second guessing…wonder where Apple will go with that…


----------



## KEM

jneebz said:


> Hmm….ordered a Studio Max 64GB but the thought of an M2 Mac Mini has got me second guessing…wonder where Apple will go with that…



Don’t worry about the next Mac Mini, it’ll still be much less powerful than the Mac Studio


----------



## jneebz

KEM said:


> Don’t worry about the next Mac Mini, it’ll still be much less powerful than the Mac Studio


That's what I'm hoping. Wouldn't make sense to compete with the Studio...


----------



## KEM

jneebz said:


> That's what I'm hoping. Wouldn't make sense to compete with the Studio...



Not at all, to keep a linear performance increase across the desktop line it will most likely be:

Mac Mini = M1/M1 Pro
Mac Studio = M1 Max/M1 Ultra
Mac Pro = some ungodly 40 core M1 variant


----------



## jneebz

KEM said:


> Not at all, to keep a linear performance increase across the desktop line it will most likely be:
> 
> Mac Mini = M1/M1 Pro
> Mac Studio = M1 Max/M1 Ultra
> Mac Pro = some ungodly 40 core M1 variant


I know it’s a rumor mill, but this seems informative…









Rumored M2 Mac mini reportedly delayed until March 2023


Apple is reportedly preparing a new M2 Mac mini which could have a slimmer design.




www.macworld.com


----------



## rnb_2

jneebz said:


> I know it’s a rumor mill, but this seems informative…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rumored M2 Mac mini reportedly delayed until March 2023
> 
> 
> Apple is reportedly preparing a new M2 Mac mini which could have a slimmer design.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.macworld.com


I'm not sure exactly where the constraints are - supply chain, manufacturing, engineering, industrial design, some combination - but you can see that something is keeping the pace of new Mac introductions slower than they'd prefer. The MacBook Pros were delayed from June '21 to October '21, the basic idea of the Mac Studio had been floating around for over a year before introduction, and the redesigned Mac mini has been rumored for just as long.

The M1 Pro is still only offered in the MacBook Pro, while the higher-end Intel Mac minis are still for sale (along with the Mac Pro, the only Intel models still available new). Something tells me that, especially with Chinese lockdowns, they still can't get a good enough handle on the MacBook Pro situation to devote any capacity to a desktop that will sell far fewer units at much lower prices, so the obvious higher-end M1 Pro Mac mini might never come, instead waiting for M2 to have a base M2 version and a higher-end M2 Pro. The same might be true of the iMac, regardless of whether a 27" model is coming. I'm sure there's a market for a higher-end 24" config with more RAM and cores, but the orange, yellow, and purple M1 iMacs are still showing 45-60 day delivery. Even the MacBook Air, 13" MacBook Pro, and M1 Mac mini are showing 2-3 week delivery times for some configs.

On the earnings call on Thursday, it will be interesting to see exactly how many billions of dollars in sales will have been lost in the last quarter due to inability to supply what customers wanted to buy. I was just advising a friend a few days ago, after he got in touch about an issue he's having with the 5k iMac he bought from me over 5 years ago, that he really needed to be locking down a MacBook Pro immediately if there was any chance that the iMac might fail. He can't run his photography business without a decent computer, and the supply of reasonable upgrades for him is very small right now. I found an Apple refurb that would have worked (M1 Max 32GB/1TB), but it sold out the same day, and that left just a single config that B&H had in stock (M1 Pro 32GB/1TB) - it has also now sold out, and if he bought something, he didn't tell me. If that iMac dies, he won't be able to replace it until June, so fingers are crossed on his behalf.


----------



## seclusion3

It does seem like we're given a double negative.
Not being able to add more storage or ram ourselves is a downer, but on top of that if you decide to pay apple to update these for you, you have to wait 3+ months or the base units!


----------



## rnb_2

seclusion3 said:


> It does seem like we're given a double negative.
> Not being able to add more storage or ram ourselves is a downer, but on top of that if you decide to pay apple to update these for you, you have to wait 3+ months or the base units!


Yeah - these are clearly not the circumstances under which Apple would have wanted to make this transition. For as smooth as the release of the original M1 Macs was, the last 6 months has been something of a mirror image, with long wait times for custom configs almost from the minute the new MacBook Pros and Mac Studio were announced.


----------



## John DeBorde

Has anyone who has received their Studio Max encountered this whine issue?









Mac Studio Owners Complain of Irritating High-Pitched Noise


Some Mac Studio owners have noticed that their machines are making a high-pitched "whining" sound that appears to be coming from the fan....




www.macrumors.com





I ordered a Max w 64GB/2TB and hope I don‘t have to find a way to acoustically isolate it.


----------



## KEM

John DeBorde said:


> Has anyone who has received their Studio Max encountered this whine issue?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac Studio Owners Complain of Irritating High-Pitched Noise
> 
> 
> Some Mac Studio owners have noticed that their machines are making a high-pitched "whining" sound that appears to be coming from the fan....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.macrumors.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I ordered a Max w 64GB/2TB and hope I don‘t have to find a way to acoustically isolate it.



Mines never made a noise


----------



## clisma

KEM said:


> Mines never made a noise


Hm, I don't think so. Mines are very well known for going "Boooooom."


----------



## rnb_2

Very interesting look at the M1 Ultra from an engineer's standpoint - the author has run the same NASA CFD benchmark on pro Macs back to 2012, and the Ultra was literally off the chart. The internal bandwidth that Apple has engineered in to support all those GPU cores also means that, for a particularly thread-friendly application, CPU performance scales in a much more linear fashion than on Xeons.


----------



## simfoe

KEM said:


> Mines never made a noise


My Mac Mini makes a terrible noise, after much frustration and research I realised that it was my music


----------



## davidson

John DeBorde said:


> Has anyone who has received their Studio Max encountered this whine issue?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac Studio Owners Complain of Irritating High-Pitched Noise
> 
> 
> Some Mac Studio owners have noticed that their machines are making a high-pitched "whining" sound that appears to be coming from the fan....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.macrumors.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I ordered a Max w 64GB/2TB and hope I don‘t have to find a way to acoustically isolate it.


Mines completely silent no matter what I throw at it.


----------



## jneebz

davidson said:


> Mines completely silent no matter what I throw at it.


Max or Ultra?


----------



## BassClef

John DeBorde said:


> Has anyone who has received their Studio Max encountered this whine issue?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac Studio Owners Complain of Irritating High-Pitched Noise
> 
> 
> Some Mac Studio owners have noticed that their machines are making a high-pitched "whining" sound that appears to be coming from the fan....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.macrumors.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I ordered a Max w 64GB/2TB and hope I don‘t have to find a way to acoustically isolate it.


My Ultra is DEAD silent. However, you must consider my 70 year old hearing loss of anything over 8kHz! 😎


----------



## davidson

jneebz said:


> Max or Ultra?


Max.


----------



## Michael Antrum

BassClef said:


> My Ultra is DEAD silent. However, you must consider my 70 year old hearing loss of anything over 8kHz! 😎


Hearing problems can be a blessing as well as a curse. I am completely deaf in my left ear, and I have been extremely happily married for 32 years.

Coincidence ......? I'll let you make up you own minds.....


----------



## Spid

Michael Antrum said:


> Hearing problems can be a blessing as well as a curse. I am completely deaf in my left ear, and I have been extremely happily married for 32 years.
> 
> Coincidence ......? I'll let you make up you own minds.....


As long as your wife sleep and eat on your left… 😎


----------



## KEM

simfoe said:


> My Mac Mini makes a terrible noise, after much frustration and research I realised that it was my music



You know now that you mention it I’ve been running into that same issue!


----------



## aeliron

simfoe said:


> My Mac Mini makes a terrible noise, after much frustration and research I realised that it was my music


But produces that terrible noise much faster than before!


----------



## aeliron

rnb_2 said:


> Very interesting look at the M1 Ultra from an engineer's standpoint - the author has run the same NASA CFD benchmark on pro Macs back to 2012, and the Ultra was literally off the chart. The internal bandwidth that Apple has engineered in to support all those GPU cores also means that, for a particularly thread-friendly application, CPU performance scales in a much more linear fashion than on Xeons.



What the ding dong ...???

Skynet is here!


----------



## AndyP

As powerful as the processors are, the RAM limitations make the decision difficult for me. My iMac with 8 cores and 128 GB RAM was much cheaper than a Mac studio with the same configuration. The iMac is fast enough for everything I do, only the fans sometimes bothers me.

At the moment, the prices on the second-hand market are falling massively and I will therefore stay with my iMac. I can still work with Mojave and use some of my older plugins and tools that don't work under Catalina anymore. In a pinch I could use my old MacBook Pro via VEP, and also configure controllers via tools that no longer work with Catalina upwards. For the Korg microKontrol 2 for example there is no new editor yet.

I'm waiting to see if a MacMini with M1 or M2 Max comes along, although that seems unlikely. 32 GB RAM is definitely not enough for me, 64 might work, but I'm waiting for reports from users with large templates. I could imagine a Mac Studio Max as an alternative if I can work with it as comfortably as with the iMac. 

Since you can not upgrade yourself, you have to think carefully about which purchase decision you make. An Ultra with 128 GB RAM costs at least 5,500€, which would be a hefty surcharge for me compared to my iMac.
Those who manage well without ARM will be happy about the price drops of Intel computers. There are sometimes real bargains with a lot of RAM.


----------



## Grilled Cheese

aeliron said:


> What the ding dong ...???
> 
> Skynet is here!


Very interesting! Boy oh boy the upcoming 40 core Mac Pro is going to be a beast.


----------



## Christian Javet

I have just finished setting up my Mac Studio Ultra 64Gb - works like charm and Cubase in M1 mode is impressive... 

My only frustration is that some plugin developers are not releasing M1 compatible software... I has been 2 years already... VSL, Output, Celemony, SoundID - to name a few. I am wondering how much they really invest in their software development if it takes 2 years to just do an architecture port... that's really concerning...


----------



## Michael Antrum

VSL clearly stated that they would complete the iLok transition before releasing M1 native versions. In comparison that Herculean task, moving to M1 should be a lot less resource intensive.


----------



## emilio_n

Christian Javet said:


> I have just finished setting up my Mac Studio Ultra 64Gb - works like charm and Cubase in M1 mode is impressive...
> 
> My only frustration is that some plugin developers are not releasing M1 compatible software... I has been 2 years already... VSL, Output, Celemony, SoundID - to name a few. I am wondering how much they really invest in their software development if it takes 2 years to just do an architecture port... that's really concerning...


Just curious…
I ordered the Ultra version mainly for the option to get 128gb. (I will use for video and photo as well)
Why you opt for 64gb and the ultra?


----------



## Christian Javet

I was looking more for the number of Cores. If memory becomes an issue (which I hope will not happen), then I will have to switch to Cubase Rosetta and use my VEPro slave again...


----------



## emilio_n

Christian Javet said:


> I was looking more for the number of Cores. If memory becomes an issue (which I hope will not happen), then I will have to switch to Cubase Rosetta and use my VEPro slave again...


I am Jealous now. I need to wait till brik mid June to get mine…


----------



## Christian Javet

Michael Antrum said:


> VSL clearly stated that they would complete the iLok transition before releasing M1 native versions. In comparison that Herculean task, moving to M1 should be a lot less resource intensive.


I guess that's indeed a crucial step, but it still frustratingly long... Sometimes I wish that the industry would agree on one standard for these non-added value services (albeit important) and focus on delivering real innovations....


----------



## Michael Antrum

emilio_n said:


> I am Jealous now. I need to wait till brik mid June to get mine…


I ordered a Studio Max 64gb 2TB which is supposed to be here mid June. The advantage of that is there is a strong possibility that the new Mac Pro will be announced at WWDC just before it arrives just - in case I find myself with an extra kidney to sell….


----------



## emilio_n

Michael Antrum said:


> I ordered a Studio Max 64gb 2TB which is supposed to be here mid June. The advantage of that is there is a strong possibility that the new Mac Pro will be announced at WWDC just before it arrives just - in case I find myself with an extra kidney to sell….


I thought exactly the same. 🙃 
But looks the Mac Pro will be so expensive that I will need to ask for extra kidneys on the street to deal with Apple.


----------



## simfoe

Michael Antrum said:


> VSL clearly stated that they would complete the iLok transition before releasing M1 native versions. In comparison that Herculean task, moving to M1 should be a lot less resource intensive.


Wait, VEP isn't M1 compatible? I've been using it in Native mode with absolutely no issues or crashes for ages!


----------



## rnb_2

simfoe said:


> Wait, VEP isn't M1 compatible? I've been using it in Native mode with absolutely no issues or crashes for ages!


MacOS has a "AU plugin compatibility" bridge service that will run Intel AUs in Rosetta while the DAW runs in native mode.


----------



## KEM

Christian Javet said:


> I have just finished setting up my Mac Studio Ultra 64Gb - works like charm and Cubase in M1 mode is impressive...
> 
> My only frustration is that some plugin developers are not releasing M1 compatible software... I has been 2 years already... VSL, Output, Celemony, SoundID - to name a few. I am wondering how much they really invest in their software development if it takes 2 years to just do an architecture port... that's really concerning...



Agreed, every so often I run it natively and check the blocklist to see what’s on there and then check to see if those plugins have native updates, right now the main offenders in my list are Izotope and Neural DSP. Also waiting on the vst3 versions of plugins like Serum and Soundtoys


----------



## Sergievsky

emilio_n said:


> Just curious…
> I ordered the Ultra version mainly for the option to get 128gb. (I will use for video and photo as well)
> Why you opt for 64gb and the ultra?


I’m also looking at the Ultra for the 128gb…if the macbook only had that that’s what I would get. With samples and all the apps I run concurrently (Sibelius etc), spending that much already for a computer, adding extra for the 128gb should be a no brainer. Too bad increasing the SSD costs so damn much…gotta think about that a little more. 

And waiting til June (for me probably July-Aug) is probably a good thing, so we can see what Apple comes out with on their June event before emptying our piggybank for the Ultra.


----------



## Spid

I wonder if any of you tried to use the Mac Studio Ultra 128GB as a VEP server… any thought?


----------



## rnb_2

Spid said:


> I wonder if any of you tried to use the Mac Studio Ultra 128GB as a VEP server… any thought?


I’m having trouble imagining a scenario where this would make sense. Maybe someone who is determined to be Mac-only, needs a laptop, but doesn’t compose on the road? So, an M1 Air/Pro (or low end M1 Pro/Max MBP), with the Studio in the…studio? Still, with VEP not native yet, this seems like a really inefficient use of ~$5k right now - you could get a Windows box for thousands less - but there might be some mad hobbyist out there.


----------



## Nimrod7

rnb_2 said:


> I’m having trouble imagining a scenario where this would make sense.



128GB / 8TB each is a small server room connected with 10GbpE.
Minimal heat, low power consumption, minimal space requirements.

4 of them is like 30K or so.
If a pro composer goes server grade (not that the studio is), same thing will be highly likely to be near that price anyhow.

Mad indeed, I would love to see it happen! :D


----------



## rnb_2

Nimrod7 said:


> 128GB / 8TB each is a small server room connected with 10GbpE.
> Minimal heat, low power consumption, minimal space requirements.
> 
> 4 of them is like 30K or so.
> If a pro composer goes server grade (not that the studio is), same thing will be highly likely to be near that price anyhow.
> 
> Mad indeed, I would love to see it happen! :D


I had an inkling of that thought process when I wrote my reply, but didn't pursue it. Thanks for filling it in - that would certainly redefine "server closet"!


----------



## Spid

rnb_2 said:


> I’m having trouble imagining a scenario where this would make sense.


I have no trouble imagining at all… but I never lack imagination. 

First of all, I have absolutely zero interest for Windows machines. Second, I like my MBP Max 64GB 8TB because it’s mobile and fit the form factor I prefer the most for my main computer… however, the Mac Mini/Mac Studio form factor would be perfect to expand capabilities of the MBP. And the Mac Studio isn’t that big and could also be easily be moved from one location to the other… I could even imagine 4 Mac Studio Ultra 128GB for a Pro Composer.


----------



## rnb_2

Spid said:


> I have no trouble imagining at all… but I never lack imagination.
> 
> First of all, I have absolutely zero interest for Windows machines. Second, I like my MBP Max 64GB 8TB because it’s mobile and fit the form factor I prefer the most for my main computer… however, the Mac Mini/Mac Studio form factor would be perfect to expand capabilities of the MBP. And the Mac Studio isn’t that big and could also be easily be moved from one location to the other… I could even imagine 4 Mac Studio Ultra 128GB for a Pro Composer.


There you have it - you're exactly the person it would make sense for, and more power to you!


----------



## Spid

Nimrod7 said:


> 4 of them is like 30K or so.


I always remember one of Harry Gregson-Williams interview, where he mentions when he first met Hans Zimmer and he needed like 27 Roland rack Sampler with Extended ROM to load samples… and he didn’t had the money and I believe Hans Zimmer loan him $100k so he could buy the gear and composer… of course, few years later, the Roland samplers were worth nothing, but most of it, we could have a beast installation for less than $40k today… that could have 4x128GB+ RAM, very different from the (maybe) 16MB we might had at the time on the old hardware sampler. What a long way we’ve come.


----------



## Spid

rnb_2 said:


> There you have it - you're exactly the person it would make sense for, and more power to you!


Yes, that’s also why I asked … however, I just got the MBP, so I will need to save for the Mac Studio server, but I would love to know how it goes if any of you tried (or at least tried VEP as local on the Mac Studio).


----------



## egroys

Spid said:


> Yes, that’s also why I asked … however, I just got the MBP, so I will need to save for the Mac Studio server, but I would love to know how it goes if any of you tried (or at least tried VEP as local on the Mac Studio).


I'd love to know the same regarding VEP as local on a Mac Studio Ultra with 128gb!


----------



## Spid

Maybe we’ll need to wait for VEP to M1 native? Not sure what the perf are with Rosetta…


----------



## gsilbers

So the idea of VEP is to offload ram and maybe cpu if adding plugins. Now that something like the studio ultra 128gb ram exists, what would be the benefit? In theory you have a loaded project with 70gb of ram in instruments, compose with about 25 or something going at the same time, another 10 or more coming and going in that project and if you need to do another cue or another track you open a new session from template with the same amount of instruments etc and it should load fairly quick and kontakt has the laod in the background and daws have some sort of purge ram or something along the lines of not loading everything only the instruments used etc. 

Maybe im missing something here?


----------



## egroys

gsilbers said:


> So the idea of VEP is to offload ram and maybe cpu if adding plugins. Now that something like the studio ultra 128gb ram exists, what would be the benefit? In theory you have a loaded project with 70gb of ram in instruments, compose with about 25 or something going at the same time, another 10 or more coming and going in that project and if you need to do another cue or another track you open a new session from template with the same amount of instruments etc and it should load fairly quick and kontakt has the laod in the background and daws have some sort of purge ram or something along the lines of not loading everything only the instruments used etc.
> 
> Maybe im missing something here?


A major part of the workflow enhancement is having a single VEP project template that serves as many DAW sessions as you need without having to reload each time you jump between your sessions.


----------



## gsilbers

egroys said:


> A major part of the workflow enhancement is having a single VEP project template that serves as many DAW sessions as you need without having to reload each time you jump between your sessions.



Ok, maybe it’s a logic only thing but there is a way to load logic projects with tracks turned off, or the instruments w/o ram until needed. 
Should be a fast load w m1 ultra. Or maybe not?


----------



## Jett Hitt

gsilbers said:


> Ok, maybe it’s a logic only thing but there is a way to load logic projects with tracks turned off, or the instruments w/o ram until needed.
> Should be a fast load w m1 ultra. Or maybe not?


I think it really depends on the player. UVI doesn’t load one bit faster on my M1 Max than it did on my 5,1. Other players, on the other hand, are noticeably faster.


----------



## egroys

gsilbers said:


> Ok, maybe it’s a logic only thing but there is a way to load logic projects with tracks turned off, or the instruments w/o ram until needed.
> Should be a fast load w m1 ultra. Or maybe not?


Not sure but I would love to know! I am working with a template that consists of over 250 VI's but I also work in Pro Tools.


----------



## Nicholas B

Just finished the transition from trash can to Mac studio. Everything is working well and a large session is only using 50% across all threads, however for some reason when using Plugin Alliance plugins, these are instantly peaking two threads and causing stuttering on playback. I am running Logic in Rosetta, and was wondering if anyone else was having these types of problems with specific developers?


----------



## Grilled Cheese

Nicholas B said:


> Just finished the transition from trash can to Mac studio. Everything is working well and a large session is only using 50% across all threads, however for some reason when using Plugin Alliance plugins, these are instantly peaking two threads and causing stuttering on playback. I am running Logic in Rosetta, and was wondering if anyone else was having these types of problems with specific developers?


I just transitioned from a Trash Can to a M1 Max MBP. Fresh install. In Rosetta mode I get the exact same issue with Best Service Engine too. Two threads peak and cause crackles.

I already dislike Engine for various reasons. This new issue is the cherry on top that has me putting all Best Service library purchases on hold until they release a native update.


----------



## Nicholas B

Grilled Cheese said:


> I just transitioned from a Trash Can to a M1 Max MBP. Fresh install. In Rosetta mode I get the exact same issue with Best Service Engine too. Two threads peak and cause crackles.
> 
> I already dislike Engine for various reasons. This new issue is the cherry on top that has me putting all Best Service library purchases on hold until they release a native update.


I just tried loading a few Engine instances running Ancient Era Persia and they seem to be running okay without peaking Threads. I’ll have to check which version of Engine I am running and get back to you. Have you tried using Vienna ensemble locally as a work around?


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo

Mhhh, ordering status….32 or 64 Chocobytes of Ram?
Im currently on 8 (in letters= P.O.O.R) using more AI Kontakt libs now which are killing it when im not purring (purging?!). I felt 8GB was fine until then. But would 32 be fine?


----------



## Spid

Nicholas B said:


> Just finished the transition from trash can to Mac studio. Everything is working well and a large session is only using 50% across all threads, however for some reason when using Plugin Alliance plugins, these are instantly peaking two threads and causing stuttering on playback. I am running Logic in Rosetta, and was wondering if anyone else was having these types of problems with specific developers?


I have similar issues with a M1 Max MBP 16” 64GB with Eastwest Opus. I can have the issue with only 1 or 2 tracks, loading a patch from the orchestral libraries, and then on the first notes (play live or play from the sequence), I will have one core quickly spiking and then going down… and then if I try again, it could be fine, no spikes at all… and then later on I come back to the track and bam, it will spike again. Also in Logic with Rosetta. Also, it’s happening with all samples on the internal 8TB SSD, so it shouldn’t be a bandwidth issue from the drive, and it shouldn’t be a memory issue either since I had 64GB and it happens with only couple of tracks and very little use… so I really wonder if it’s not because of the Rosetta conversion. I tried to start Logic in native, but I couldn’t confirm the issue… it’s happening with 256 samples latency. I wonder if anyone else has this problem… I was starting to think it was just Opus (nice ‘Play’ didn’t had good reputation in the past). I never used Opus before, so I can’t compare with previous mac. Any feedback is welcome, and I hope mine will help you in some way…


----------



## Spid

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> Mhhh, ordering status….32 or 64 Chocobytes of Ram?
> Im currently on 8 (in letters= P.O.O.R) using more AI Kontakt libs now which are killing it when im not purring (purging?!). I felt 8GB was fine until then. But would 32 be fine?


I’ve seen many test from MaxTech where 32GB are doing just fine in comparison to 64GB and it only slows done couple seconds on long renders, video treatment. I have MBP Max with 64GB and I checked and I rarely go over 32GB memory. However, I haven’t built my composer template yet, it’s my first time, so it takes me time to figure out what to do “right”… so I would say things could be quite different if you’re running large template that would require more RAM. If you just use your DAW “as you go” adding tracks one by one, loading libs as you need it, I think you could get by with 32GB. The swap on those new M1 machines is VERY fast and we can’t barely feel any slowliness under charge. However, RAM is RAM and if you’re looking for pure raw memory for large template and to load plenty of libs already, I would recommend the biggest you can afford. That’s why I went for the 64GB MBP. The fact they’re not upgradable in the future, I went the extra miles to make sure I won’t be bother in the future. And if I need more than 64GB, it will mean I will run some VEP servers anyway… I hope it makes sense. YMMV


----------



## Nicholas B

Spid said:


> I have similar issues with a M1 Max MBP 16” 64GB with Eastwest Opus. I can have the issue with only 1 or 2 tracks, loading a patch from the orchestral libraries, and then on the first notes (play live or play from the sequence), I will have one core quickly spiking and then going down… and then if I try again, it could be fine, no spikes at all… and then later on I come back to the track and bam, it will spike again. Also in Logic with Rosetta. Also, it’s happening with all samples on the internal 8TB SSD, so it shouldn’t be a bandwidth issue from the drive, and it shouldn’t be a memory issue either since I had 64GB and it happens with only couple of tracks and very little use… so I really wonder if it’s not because of the Rosetta conversion. I tried to start Logic in native, but I couldn’t confirm the issue… it’s happening with 256 samples latency. I wonder if anyone else has this problem… I was starting to think it was just Opus (nice ‘Play’ didn’t had good reputation in the past). I never used Opus before, so I can’t compare with previous mac. Any feedback is welcome, and I hope mine will help you in some way…


Thanks for the reply. It’s definitely something I’ll be looking in to. I’m maybe wondering if it has something to do with how Logic is managing the cores. Are you using the automatic setting in the processing cores option in the audio preferences? It will be interesting to see how performance changes with limiting the core usage within Logic.


----------



## Grilled Cheese

Spid said:


> I have similar issues with a M1 Max MBP 16” 64GB with Eastwest Opus. I can have the issue with only 1 or 2 tracks, loading a patch from the orchestral libraries, and then on the first notes (play live or play from the sequence), I will have one core quickly spiking and then going down… and then if I try again, it could be fine, no spikes at all… and then later on I come back to the track and bam, it will spike again. Also in Logic with Rosetta. Also, it’s happening with all samples on the internal 8TB SSD, so it shouldn’t be a bandwidth issue from the drive, and it shouldn’t be a memory issue either since I had 64GB and it happens with only couple of tracks and very little use… so I really wonder if it’s not because of the Rosetta conversion. I tried to start Logic in native, but I couldn’t confirm the issue… it’s happening with 256 samples latency. I wonder if anyone else has this problem… I was starting to think it was just Opus (nice ‘Play’ didn’t had good reputation in the past). I never used Opus before, so I can’t compare with previous mac. Any feedback is welcome, and I hope mine will help you in some way…


Same here. Samples on the internal drive, 64gb ram, Logic in Rosetta. 128 samples latency. Engine will sometimes behave for a bit, but it usually takes just a few chords to start crackling even with just one instance.


----------



## gsilbers

Has anyone tried large templates in logic (native m1) and Kontakt (native) and how fast it loads with and w/o ram purge/Kontakt/preclear ram etc ?

I want to see if logic works Kontakt can go back and forth easily between projects or will it be waiting a long while in ultra.


----------



## Electric Moss

Jett Hitt said:


> I think it really depends on the player. UVI doesn’t load one bit faster on my M1 Max than it did on my 5,1. Other players, on the other hand, are noticeably faster.


Dang. I was really hoping to see some improvements with the UVI player especially. Do you see any difference when scrolling through instrument presets (once a specific instrument is loaded)? If I loop playback and scroll through UVI instruments on my trashcan, I'll get a CPU overload message every time. UVI is the only player that this happens with and it's a major buzzkill for something like drum samples, when you have to move quickly.


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo

Spid said:


> I’ve seen many test from MaxTech where 32GB are doing just fine in comparison to 64GB and it only slows done couple seconds on long renders, video treatment. I have MBP Max with 64GB and I checked and I rarely go over 32GB memory. However, I haven’t built my composer template yet, it’s my first time, so it takes me time to figure out what to do “right”… so I would say things could be quite different if you’re running large template that would require more RAM. If you just use your DAW “as you go” adding tracks one by one, loading libs as you need it, I think you could get by with 32GB. The swap on those new M1 machines is VERY fast and we can’t barely feel any slowliness under charge. However, RAM is RAM and if you’re looking for pure raw memory for large template and to load plenty of libs already, I would recommend the biggest you can afford. That’s why I went for the 64GB MBP. The fact they’re not upgradable in the future, I went the extra miles to make sure I won’t be bother in the future. And if I need more than 64GB, it will mean I will run some VEP servers anyway… I hope it makes sense. YMMV


Got it. I think im a low 32 Person. I have no humongous libs, and when i get them someone else is is need. I dont plan ahead anymore too far, so another + there.


----------



## Spid

Nicholas B said:


> Are you using the automatic setting in the processing cores option in the audio preferences? It will be interesting to see how performance changes with limiting the core usage within Logic.


I use Manual 10 core, with Large buffer... not sure if it's the best settings for M1 Max chipset. I've been in a long hiatus, and I'm coming back in with the M1 (so I'm starting fresh, but then I have no idea what the best settings for M1 could be).


----------



## Spid

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> Got it. I think im a low 32 Person. I have no humongous libs, and when i get them someone else is is need. I dont plan ahead anymore too far, so another + there.


I would say, it also mainly depend to how long you plan to keep your system. I hate to change systems, it's always a huge PITA to reinstall everything, so I want to keep my system as long as possible, at least for the next 5 or 6 years. So I went for the higher RAM quantity. But if I would plan to change my system in the next 2-3 years, then I would probably just stick with 32GB. At least that's how I see it... I hope it helps


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo

Spid said:


> I would say, it also mainly depend to how long you plan to keep your system. I hate to change systems, it's always a huge PITA to reinstall everything, so I want to keep my system as long as possible, at least for the next 5 or 6 years. So I went for the higher RAM quantity. But if I would plan to change my system in the next 2-3 years, then I would probably just stick with 32GB. At least that's how I see it... I hope it helps


Yea it did help, thx. I bought my imac [email protected] not even two years ago because i had no other option back then. In the end it was a loss though. If these investments bring no penny back at all for me, its just a too expensive hobby to fool around with. Imagine all those Lego‘s for those costs.

Just Reinstalled everything too because of Monterey, and it took me 14 hours straight….and i dont even have much…really not so much, oof.


----------



## Spid

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> Yea it did help, thx. I bought my imac [email protected] not even two years ago because i had no other option back then. In the end it was a loss though. If these investments bring no penny back at all for me, its just a too expensive hobby to fool around with. Imagine all those Lego‘s for those costs.
> 
> Just Reinstalled everything too because of Monterey, and it took me 14 hours straight….and i dont even have much…really not so much, oof.


I've been reinstalling for a month now, because I play a little bit and then notice I need to reinstall something, so I download, reinstall, and then play again... then I notice something else. So it takes me a while to make sure I don't forget anything, but also I start fresh and only reinstall what I really need and don't copy any files from my old system. Not sure it's the best way to do, but that's how I do all the time...


----------



## HCMarkus

I did a fresh install, but before I did, made sure I had all the plugin info documented. And the VI Samples were just copied over from my old Mac Pro. Took me three days, part-time, including testing, then moved my current scoring project to the new machine. Despite occasional "poof- gone!" crashes, my efficiency is much better thanks to the speedy new Mac.


----------



## Jett Hitt

Electric Moss said:


> Dang. I was really hoping to see some improvements with the UVI player especially. Do you see any difference when scrolling through instrument presets (once a specific instrument is loaded)? If I loop playback and scroll through UVI instruments on my trashcan, I'll get a CPU overload message every time. UVI is the only player that this happens with and it's a major buzzkill for something like drum samples, when you have to move quickly.


I don’t really have any way to test this because I only have one UVI instrument, the Ravenscroft 275.


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo

Spid said:


> . At least that's how I see it... I hope it helps


Wife said im dumb and will only pay for 64. There goes my free will….


----------



## Tronam

I've seen conflicting reports about manually configuring Logic to use the efficiency cores on M1 Pro/Max/Ultra. Aren't they used by the OS, applications, audio drivers and various other background tasks like UI rendering? They're also significantly weaker than the performance cores, so wouldn't they introduce greater unpredictability to audio processing?


----------



## rnb_2

On a Pro/Max/Ultra, I'd probably go with Performance Cores only in Logic, and let the Efficiency Cores concentrate on background processes. On the original M1, since it has four of each core type, I'd stick with 4+2(or 3) in Logic, leaving 1-2 Efficiency Cores for background tasks.

I'd also recommend at least trying Logic in native mode if you have a fair number of native plugins, and letting the AUCompatibilityService handle your Intel plugins. No guarantees on how each Intel plugin will perform, but it's worth trying to get the extra performance out of Logic and your native plugins instead of limiting everything to Rosetta.


----------



## Guavadude

My Max 64gb 2tb arrives tomorrow instead of late June as expected! Let the dongle-ing begin!

I can't remember the last time I did a clean install. I should be able to get some work done on it by the time the new models are released.


----------



## HCMarkus

Guavadude said:


> My Max 64gb 2tb arrives tomorrow instead of late June as expected! Let the dongle-ing begin!
> 
> I can't remember the last time I did a clean install. I should be able to get some work done on it by the time the new models are released.


Didn't take me that long. Copying all the VI Samples directly across saved a lot of time and download bandwidth. I used a USB3 SATA hard drive dock costing under $30 to get my samples off my old Mac Pro's SATA SSDs. The app and plugin installs go pretty quick... Have fun and good luck!


----------



## marclawsonmusic

I'm curious to hear how @KEM got along with the migration assistant. Was it painless? Any problems?

Also curious to hear how @KEM's (or anyone else's) system is performing? Are you happy with the new spaceship?  Does it run circles around your old machine? Stories, stories!


----------



## KEM

marclawsonmusic said:


> I'm curious to hear how @KEM got along with the migration assistant. Was it painless? Any problems?
> 
> Also curious to hear how @KEM's (or anyone else's) system is performing? Are you happy with the new spaceship?  Does it run circles around your old machine? Stories, stories!



Migration assistant worked perfectly!! There was only one plugin I own that had an issue but it was a very easy fix, just had to redownload a file and place it back in its folder (an Acustica plugin in case anyone is wondering), I had about 2tb of data to migrate and with a Thunderbolt cable it only took about 30 minutes, I’d say overall it was a perfect experience and I would highly recommend it to anyone that’s on the fence about it

As far as performance goes this thing can definitely handle huge workloads, I’m currently working on a mockup of a certain film trilogy (which you will all hear in a couple of months ) that is currently about 13 minutes of music, well over 100 tracks of active synth/orchestra midi with processing, running at 32bit float/48khz with a buffer size of 256, AND a full mastering chain on, all of that and it’s running at about 50% cpu


----------



## marclawsonmusic

KEM said:


> Migration assistant worked perfectly!! There was only one plugin I own that had an issue but it was a very easy fix, just had to redownload a file and place it back in its folder (an Acustica plugin in case anyone is wondering), I had about 2tb of data to migrate and with a Thunderbolt cable it only took about 30 minutes, I’d say overall it was a perfect experience and I would highly recommend it to anyone that’s on the fence about it
> 
> As far as performance goes this thing can definitely handle huge workloads, I’m currently working on a mockup of a certain film trilogy (which you will all hear in a couple of months ) that is currently about 13 minutes of music, well over 100 tracks of active synth/orchestra midi with processing, running at 32bit float/48khz with a buffer size of 256, AND a full mastering chain on, all of that and it’s running at about 50% cpu


Awesome! Great news all around!!! Thanks for the update


----------



## KEM

marclawsonmusic said:


> Awesome! Great news all around!!! Thanks for the update



No problem! Hope it helps ease anyones worries about what this machine can do, the only plugins that are giving me any real issues right now are Soundtoys, but they’re working on vst3 versions anyways so that shouldn’t be an issue for much longer

I should also mention that I’m running Cubase 12 in Rosetta, if I was running it natively and only using plugins that are also native to Apple Silicon my performance levels would be even better, so if we’re being honest the Mac Studio really hasn’t even seen its full potential yet!!


----------



## LATABOM

KEM said:


> No problem! Hope it helps ease anyones worries about what this machine can do, the only plugins that are giving me any real issues right now are Soundtoys, but they’re working on vst3 versions anyways so that shouldn’t be an issue for much longer
> 
> I should also mention that I’m running Cubase 12 in Rosetta, if I was running it natively and only using plugins that are also native to Apple Silicon my performance levels would be even better, so if we’re being honest the Mac Studio really hasn’t even seen its full potential yet!!


Can you share which specs your Mac Studio has? And how do you find Ram usage with the –100 tracks of synths and orchestra? Do you need to do any bouncing/freezing to keep things stable? Thx


----------



## KEM

LATABOM said:


> Can you share which specs your Mac Studio has? And how do you find Ram usage with the –100 tracks of synths and orchestra? Do you need to do any bouncing/freezing to keep things stable? Thx



I have the base M1 Ultra with 64gb of ram and 4tb of storage. Most of my orchestral stuff is on a VEP PC but everything is active, nothing is bounced/frozen unless I needed to do that for sound design stuff. If you’re going to have everything on this machine and not use a slave I would suggest getting the 128gb of ram just to be safe but other than that the M1 Ultra is more than capable for most workflows


----------



## Grilled Cheese

Nicholas B said:


> Just finished the transition from trash can to Mac studio. Everything is working well and a large session is only using 50% across all threads, however for some reason when using Plugin Alliance plugins, these are instantly peaking two threads and causing stuttering on playback. I am running Logic in Rosetta, and was wondering if anyone else was having these types of problems with specific developers?


Tried something new with Best Service Engine which seems to work. Simply increasing the buffer to 512 samples seems to have stopped CPU overloads even in Native Mode (despite the fact that native mode is not officially supported). Perhaps this might also help with your Plugin Alliance plugins.


----------



## Nicholas B

Grilled Cheese said:


> Tried something new with Best Service Engine which seems to work. Simply increasing the buffer to 512 samples seems to have stopped CPU overloads even in Native Mode (despite the fact that native mode is not officially supported). Perhaps this might also help with your Plugin Alliance plugins.


Awesome! Glad you found a work around for Best Service. Will give the sample buffer a play around to see if it works for me too.


----------



## davidson

Is anyone else having issues with gestures stopping working randomly?


----------



## rnb_2

Christian Javet said:


> I have just finished setting up my Mac Studio Ultra 64Gb - works like charm and Cubase in M1 mode is impressive...
> 
> My only frustration is that some plugin developers are not releasing M1 compatible software... I has been 2 years already... VSL, Output, Celemony, SoundID - to name a few. I am wondering how much they really invest in their software development if it takes 2 years to just do an architecture port... that's really concerning...


Celemony released their Apple Silicon native Melodyne update today.


----------



## KEM

rnb_2 said:


> Celemony released their Apple Silicon native Melodyne update today.



Great, now I just need to figure out how to actually get Melodyne out of the iZotope bundle I bought lol


----------



## Soundbed

Hi Folks ...

Too busy to write out all the reasons, but I still use my 2018 Intel i9 MPB more than my brand new Mac Studio.

Software compatibility issues, weird screen draw things, weird mouse things, drives getting ejected during sleep (only with a particular hub, that is NOT sold on Amazon anymore, though) ... silly usability things are not consistently working for me.

They usually fix, if I reboot.

Thank goodness reboot is super fast.

But it's taken a lot of time and made me frustrated.

Again I wish I had time to explain but I wanted to drop by and say that I have not been 100% happy with my Mac studio + software for it (from 3rd parties, not Apple) experience ... although YMMV. My issues might be unique to me.

To be clear, *many of my use cases/examples are from Video editing in Abode Premiere* and not music related examples ... anyhoo....


----------



## jneebz

Soundbed said:


> Hi Folks ...
> 
> Too busy to write out all the reasons, but I still use my 2018 Intel i9 MPB more than my brand new Mac Studio.
> 
> Software compatibility issues, weird screen draw things, weird mouse things, drives getting ejected during sleep (only with a particular hub, that is NOT sold on Amazon anymore, though) ... silly usability things are not consistently working for me.
> 
> They usually fix, if I reboot.
> 
> Thank goodness reboot is super fast.
> 
> But it's taken a lot of time and made me frustrated.
> 
> Again I wish I had time to explain but I wanted to drop by and say that I have not been 100% happy with my Mac studio + software for it (from 3rd parties, not Apple) experience ... although YMMV. My issues might be unique to me.
> 
> To be clear, *many of my use cases/examples are from Video editing in Abode Premiere* and not music related examples ... anyhoo....


Dang…not what I like to hear as I wait for arrival of my Mac Studio.


----------



## KEM

jneebz said:


> Dang…not what I like to hear as I wait for arrival of my Mac Studio.



To be fair I haven’t had any of these issues


----------



## Vik

jneebz said:


> Dang…not what I like to hear as I wait for arrival of my Mac Studio.


If you're not using the same DAW/same video editing software, maybe you won't have the problems he had (but thanks for sharing, Soundbed).


----------



## jneebz

KEM said:


> To be fair I haven’t had any of these issues


Hey do use external drives for samples? If so, what kind of connection/enclosure? Sorry in advance if you’ve answered this before….


----------



## KEM

jneebz said:


> Hey do use external drives for samples? If so, what kind of connection/enclosure? Sorry in advance if you’ve answered this before….



I do not, I have a VEP PC that I use instead of having external drives and I haven’t had a single issue with it’s connection


----------



## gsilbers

KEM said:


> I do not, I have a VEP PC that I use instead of having external drives and I haven’t had a single issue with it’s connection


Have you used vep server on the mac studio?

I’d like to get the 128gb ram mac studio but it seems vep server in macs have issues that make vep quit randomly if left loaded up for awhile. And with big ram loads.


----------



## davidson

davidson said:


> Is anyone else having issues with gestures stopping working randomly?


Just me then ?

If anyone else _does_ have the same issue, rather than restarting your mac you can open terminal and enter killall Dock to 'fix' it temporarily until it happens again.


----------



## marclawsonmusic

Soundbed said:


> Software compatibility issues, weird screen draw things, weird mouse things, *drives getting ejected during sleep* (only with a particular hub, that is NOT sold on Amazon anymore, though) ... silly usability things are not consistently working for me.


Thank you for sharing, Soundbed.

FWIW, my Mac became very unstable when one of my USB hubs started to die. It's amazing, but these little (and often cheap) devices connect some of our most critical components (drives, audio interfaces, etc), so when they start shorting out, the OS doesn't always respond well.

Hopefully there is a simple solution to some of those problems. For sure, it's not a good feeling to have a new $4K+ door stop! Wishing you success in troubleshooting.


----------



## michaelstram

New Mac Studio user here as well. The only real issue is this:

I have 4 AV Access usb extenders that extend using ethernet. On an intel Mac or regular pc they work great, but on my Mac studio, they just don't work.

I use them as I have my computer rack in one room and my mouse/keys monitor in another.


----------



## rnb_2

michaelstram said:


> New Mac Studio user here as well. The only real issue is this:
> 
> I have 4 AV Access usb extenders that extend using ethernet. On an intel Mac or regular pc they work great, but on my Mac studio, they just don't work.
> 
> I use them as I have my computer rack in one room and my mouse/keys monitor in another.


That's weird - AV Access says that those boxes don't require drivers and support all operating systems, so I wonder what is causing them to not work with your Mac Studio. Have you had any contact with AV Access about this?


----------



## michaelstram

rnb_2 said:


> That's weird - AV Access says that those boxes don't require drivers and support all operating systems, so I wonder what is causing them to not work with your Mac Studio. Have you had any contact with AV Access about this?


I sent an email, but that was just recently. Ill keep this thread updated once I hear back.


----------



## HCMarkus

I had a weird one today with m Mac Studio Ultra... BackBlaze apparently causes DP to crash when running video in DP11.1. Didn't cause a problem yesterday, but today is another story. This may be only because BB is accessing all my files (new backup in progress), but after I turned BB OFF (which took a re-boot to stick after I set Schedule to "Only When I Click "Backup Now") I have been working without issue.

Otherwise, things have been very smooth, albeit with the occasional hiccup, aka "poof- DP is gone", but since re-starting the program is so fast, not a huge deal. At least, not until I have a client in here with me...


----------



## KEM

HCMarkus said:


> I had a weird one today with m Mac Studio Ultra... BackBlaze apparently causes DP to crash when running video in DP11.1. Didn't cause a problem yesterday, but today is another story. This may be only because BB is accessing all my files (new backup in progress), but after I turned BB OFF (which took a re-boot to stick after I set Schedule to "Only When I Click "Backup Now") I have been working without issue.
> 
> Otherwise, things have been very smooth, albeit with the occasional hiccup, aka "poof- DP is gone", but since re-starting the program is so fast, not a huge deal. At least, not until I have a client in here with me...



Is Backblaze worth getting? I’ve been considering it, I’ve never done a backup before


----------



## mscp

I agree with Soundbed. The M1 is sort of letting me down do far. I thought it would be a “game changer” so they speak…not quite.

I still have my PC running as slave - as the second brain of the setup, and sometimes the master because clearly, the M1 Max so far is not a truly reliable machine…I’m quite sure it’s 100% software/OS related.

Maybe when every single software is ported to the M1, I may revisit it as a master computer. It remains to be seen.


----------



## Nimrod7

Soundbed said:


> To be clear, *many of my use cases/examples are from Video editing in Abode Premiere* and not music related examples ... anyhoo....


I am sorry that you are facing all those issues.
Adobe is known to be the worst in terms of optimization, performance and bugs in Macs. A lot of people complain for years now. In the M1s is just worst.

They are way behind than the competitive NLEs.

I would recommend trying Final Cut or DaVinci Resolve instead.
Btw I was editing in premiere since Premiere CS3 released around 2008! I am not a hater or anything just got tired with the poor performance and the issues and just moved on several years ago.


----------



## KEM

mscp said:


> I agree with Soundbed. The M1 is sort of letting me down do far. I thought it would be a “game changer” so they speak…not quite.
> 
> I still have my PC running as slave - as the second brain of the setup, and sometimes the master because clearly, the M1 Max so far is not a truly reliable machine…I’m quite sure it’s 100% software/OS related.
> 
> Maybe when every single software is ported to the M1, I may revisit it as a master computer. It remains to be seen.



It’s 100% because of optimation/support and 0% because of the hardware. The higher end of the M1 lineup from a technical perspective is fully capable of running all the music software we use and then some, but the problem is that a lot of music software has been slow to adopt it. Give it some time and you’ll see a huge improvement


----------



## HCMarkus

KEM said:


> Is Backblaze worth getting? I’ve been considering it, I’ve never done a backup before


Backing up is the only way you ever truly have your data. Backblaze is one layer between us and disaster. I also run Time Machine and make manual daily backups. I never want to lose a day's work again, and a lot more than a day's work can be lost when a drive fails, or a fire burns down your studio (both of which have happened to me), or... 

BB is inexpensive when you have lots of data to back up. Most folks who work in our field do. 

Easy to set up. Do it, and do Time Machine, too.


----------



## KEM

HCMarkus said:


> Backing up is the only way you ever truly have your data. Backblaze is one layer between us and disaster. I also run Time Machine and make manual daily backups. I never want to lose a day's work again, and a lot more than a day's work can be lost when a drive fails, or a fire burns down your studio (both of which have happened to me), or...
> 
> BB is inexpensive when you have lots of data to back up. Most folks who work in our field do.
> 
> Easy to set up. Do it, and do Time Machine, too.



Time Machine might be more of a hassle since I don’t have an external drive to back up to, but Blackblaze being a cloud service I could absolutely do. Can you backup multiple computers to one account and they’ll show up as separate computers? Might as well back up my Mac and my PC just to be extra safe


----------



## rnb_2

KEM said:


> Time Machine might be more of a hassle since I don’t have an external drive to back up to, but Blackblaze being a cloud service I could absolutely do. Can you backup multiple computers to one account and they’ll show up as separate computers? Might as well back up my Mac and my PC just to be extra safe


Backblaze is one account per computer and attached drives. A lot of people are very happy with them, but I had a horrible experience with them several years ago and just couldn't continue giving them my money in good conscience; I rely on nightly local backups + disconnected drives that I keep off-site.


----------



## KEM

rnb_2 said:


> Backblaze is one account per computer and attached drives. A lot of people are very happy with them, but I had a horrible experience with them several years ago and just couldn't continue giving them my money in good conscience; I rely on nightly local backups + disconnected drives that I keep off-site.



I might just have to suck it up and get a large external drive to use for backups then


----------



## HCMarkus

Do both. When my studio burned in the 2003 San Diego wildfire, TM wouldn’t have been much good. 

Backblaze has been solid for me; I have over 8TB up there. For smaller computer needs some other services are more cost effective.


----------



## HCMarkus

I use Seagate 8TB externals for TM and long-term backups. The long-term drive is not backed up on TM, but is on BB and also on a separate local drive.


----------



## HCMarkus

rnb_2 said:


> Backblaze is one account per computer and attached drives. A lot of people are very happy with them, but I had a horrible experience with them several years ago and just couldn't continue giving them my money in good conscience; I rely on nightly local backups + disconnected drives that I keep off-site.


Tell us more. Inquiring minds... 

Good you keep an offsite. I do that once in a while, but hard to keep it current.


----------



## rnb_2

HCMarkus said:


> Tell us more. Inquiring minds...
> 
> Good you keep an offsite. I do that once in a while, but hard to keep it current.


I'm a photographer, and I had set up a system where my photo imports were copied to two drives automatically, in identical folder structures (so that, if my main drive died, it would be a simple matter to switch everything to the backup). One day, my Backblaze backups of my photos just disappeared - this was several years ago, so it was only about 2TB of data, but my upload speed was slow at the time, so it was a big deal. Their support had me do all sorts of tests to try to get the data back up, but nothing worked - I did this dance with them for 2-3 weeks.

Turned out, they had pushed out a software update that, in the interest of improving performance, had looked at your exclusion list (where you tell it "don't back up these drives/folders") and excluded data on *any* drive that otherwise matched an excluded folder hierarchy. So, since I had put photo backup folders in the exclusion list, it *MAGICALLY *also excluded my primary photo drive when the update installed and deleted the data from their servers. For whatever reason, the data was also not recoverable via their site - it was nowhere to be found.

Their support people didn't even know about the software change, and nobody ever offered an apology, let alone trying to make up for what happened. At the time, Backblaze was easily the best option in cloud backup for a user like me, but I just couldn't continue with them after what had happened and how they responded to it.


----------



## HCMarkus

rnb_2 said:


> Their support people didn't even know about the software change, and nobody ever offered an apology, let alone trying to make up for what happened. At the time, Backblaze was easily the best option in cloud backup for a user like me, but I just couldn't continue with them after what had happened and how they responded to it.


Lame response by Backblaze. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Nimrod7

marclawsonmusic said:


> FWIW, my Mac became very unstable when one of my USB hubs started to die. It's amazing, but these little (and often cheap) devices connect some of our most critical components (drives, audio interfaces, etc), so when they start shorting out, the OS doesn't always respond well.


I totally agree to that. 

I had a MacBook Pro setup connected to a dual display, alongside ethernet etc on a CalDigit Element Hub, which is supposed to be the most reliable hub!

Even with the most "reliable" I had tons of problems, from monitors not turning on until I disconnect a cable, to the ethernet not recognized. 

This is the reason I moved to the Mac Studio setup in the first place.


----------



## Michael Antrum

HCMarkus said:


> Lame response by Backblaze. Thanks for sharing.


One thing I never realised is that if you have Amazon Prime, they have a Photo backup service (unlimited) included free of charge. I've just started using it...





__





Amazon Photos


Amazon Photos offers free online photo storage to Prime members, who can save and share unlimited photos on desktop, mobile, and tablet.



www.amazon.com


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Michael Antrum said:


> One thing I never realised is that if you have Amazon Prime, they have a Photo backup service (unlimited) included free of charge. I've just started using it...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazon Photos
> 
> 
> Amazon Photos offers free online photo storage to Prime members, who can save and share unlimited photos on desktop, mobile, and tablet.
> 
> 
> 
> www.amazon.com


That says $2/month for 100GB. I just give Apple $3/month to have everything backed up on iCloud automatically (from my iPhone, I don't use a regular digital camera these days).


----------



## Michael Antrum

Nick Batzdorf said:


> That says $2/month for 100GB. I just give Apple $3/month to have everything backed up on iCloud automatically (from my iPhone, I don't use a regular digital camera these days).


You've not read it right.

" Looking for *more video *storage? http://www.amazon.com/photostorage?ref_=APH_FAQ2 (Storage plans start at $1.99/month.)"

Unlimited photo storage is included.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

rnb_2 said:


> At the time, Backblaze was easily the best option in cloud backup for a user like me, but I just couldn't continue with them after what had happened and how they responded to it.


I've been using iDrive to back up my whole system (using about 6TB of the 10TB I have available).

No doubt you've found something since that disaster, but iDrive has been very reliable so far, and I have been able to retrieve individual files. I have local backups too, but it's nice that cloud backup is now feasible (due to much faster Internet and also more reasonable prices).


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Michael Antrum said:


> You've not read it right.
> 
> " Looking for *more video *storage? http://www.amazon.com/photostorage?ref_=APH_FAQ2 (Storage plans start at $1.99/month.)"
> 
> Unlimited photo storage is included.


You're right. But that's not specified until the second page.

Good to know. Thanks!


----------



## Michael Antrum

Nick Batzdorf said:


> You're right. But that's not specified until the second page.
> 
> Good to know. Thanks!


It is less than clear though.....


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Michael Antrum said:


> It is less than clear though.....


I wonder whether there's any reason to have my pictures backed up on a third cloud service (iCloud and iDrive).

Probably not.


----------



## Michael Antrum

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I wonder whether there's any reason to have my pictures backed up on a third cloud service (iCloud and iDrive).
> 
> Probably not.


Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get you......


----------



## rnb_2

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I've been using iDrive to back up my whole system (using about 6TB of the 10TB I have available).
> 
> No doubt you've found something since that disaster, but iDrive has been very reliable so far, and I have been able to retrieve individual files. I have local backups too, but it's nice that cloud backup is now feasible (due to much faster Internet and also more reasonable prices).


At the time this happened, there really weren't any other good options for a price I was willing to pay, so I've been making do with nightly local backups and disconnected drives that I plug in every couple weeks and keep off-site. I hadn't kept up with the developments in this market, so thanks for mentioning iDrive - looks like it gets great reviews, and they're almost giving away the first year these days, so now that I have 500/500 internet (vs the 25/8 I had when Backblaze did me dirty), I may give them a go.


----------



## method1

Just signed up for idrive - $3.98 for 10TB 1st year, thanks for mentioning it!









IDrive Cloud Backup


I signed up with IDrive to protect my videos and photos, you should too! Get 95% off IDrive Today!




www.idrive.com


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

rnb_2 said:


> At the time this happened, there really weren't any other good options for a price I was willing to pay, so I've been making do with nightly local backups and disconnected drives that I plug in every couple weeks and keep off-site. I hadn't kept up with the developments in this market, so thanks for mentioning iDrive - looks like it gets great reviews, and they're almost giving away the first year these days, so now that I have 500/500 internet (vs the 25/8 I had when Backblaze did me dirty), I may give them a go.



I have fiber optic Internet with uploads as fast as downloads (in the 800-900s if you use wired Ethernet), and if I remember right it took 2-3 days to transfer everything. You just leave your computer on overnight, and then once it's there everything is incremental.

It wakes the computer up in the middle of the night, does incremental backups of all my drives (internal and external), and I'm a happier man because of it.


----------



## KEM

Would you guys recommend getting an external drive and doing Time Machine backups on it or getting something like iDrive and doing cloud backups?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

KEM said:


> Would you guys recommend getting an external drive and doing Time Machine backups on it or getting something like iDrive and doing cloud backups?


Definitely both. I treat the cloud backup as an emergency offsite insurance policy.

More than that, I have two alternating Time Machine backups + an image of my system drive in a working state in my glove compartment.


----------



## rnb_2

KEM said:


> Would you guys recommend getting an external drive and doing Time Machine backups on it or getting something like iDrive and doing cloud backups?


Depending on how fast your internet is, I'd say both. I'd vote for doing either Time Machine or some other backup option (I use Carbon Copy Cloner) at least nightly so that, should the unthinkable happen and your Mac Studio has to go in for service and in the process gets its drive wiped, you can get back up and running pretty quickly.

Cloud backup is the next layer of protection, for a situation where fire/flood/tornado/etc takes out your computer and all of your local backups. If your internet is fast enough, a good cloud backup *could* take the place of Time Machine/CCC/SuperDuper!/etc, *but probably shouldn't*. The process of getting back to where you were, pre-disaster, is much more straightforward that way, since macOS will ask if you want to migrate data from a local drive during setup.

You could also forego cloud backup and rotate a couple drives with Time Machine or similar, keeping one copy off-site, but if your on-site backup gets taken out along with your computer, you'll lose everything since you last rotated the backup drives.


----------



## KEM

Ughhhh always having to spend more money… fine, I’ll do both


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

KEM said:


> Ughhhh always having to spend more money… fine, I’ll do both


This is money well spent.


----------



## Radium

look at all those Mac pros about half way in the video racks of them. That's what I want not a Mac that can't be updated. I hope the new pro allows upgrading ram for large templates of virtual instrument some of the new sounds are sucking up 20 gigs per VST WOW forbidden planet is wild


----------



## KEM

Radium said:


> look at all those Mac pros about half way in the video racks of them. That's what I want not a Mac that can't be updated. I hope the new pro allows upgrading ram for large templates of virtual instrument some of the new sounds are sucking up 20 gigs per VST WOW forbidden planet is wild




130 rackmounted Mac Pro’s…


----------



## JohnG

KEM said:


> Would you guys recommend getting an external drive and doing Time Machine backups on it or getting something like iDrive and doing cloud backups?


I’m all for cloud backups for things that change a lot, such as project files (your Cubaare / Logic / DP files; maybe Documents). But recovery could be very slow for large sample libraries, depending on your download speed (and the backup’s servers’ speed). Consequently, I don’t favour cloud backup for things like sample libraries that are very large and change infrequently.

Instead, to guard against a fire, water leak or something else that wrecks everything, I have a full backup at the bank (hard drive in a safe deposit box), so that it would be quicker to recover.

If your ISP is as fast as the one @Nick Batzdorf has, then maybe cloud is just fine. Mine’s not nearly that fast.


----------



## JohnG

Whoops — is this really the right place for this discussion?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

JohnG said:


> Whoops — is this really the right place for this discussion?


I dunno, the conversation moved in this direction and it's sort of related to the new Mac. In my opinion it's not worth moving a bunch of posts to another sub-sub-subforum just because of a diversion.

Anyway, I treat cloud backups as extra insurance in case my house burns down or something that makes my local backups unusable. That's why I want my sample libraries and all my work in the cloud.

iDrive is not a substitute for local backups, it's just insurance that one hopes never to have to use - as with all insurance.


----------



## Michael Antrum

Well I finally got my shipping notice. My shiny new Mac Studio should be here May 25th. I finally opted, after much debate, to go for the Max with 64Gb and 2TB.

Which means that if they announce a killer Mac Pro for a hundred quid at WWDC on the 6th I am still within the return window. (Which might be handy - or not.)

Oddly, I'm not as flushed with the initial enthusiasm as I was when I ordered it. But my 2009 Mac Pro is knocking on a bit now.....


----------



## HCMarkus

Michael Antrum said:


> Oddly, I'm not as flushed with the initial enthusiasm as I was when I ordered it. But my 2009 Mac Pro is knocking on a bit now.....


Wait until you use it. I predict you are going to be extremely happy.


----------



## holywilly

How are you folks doing with the Mac Studio? Is it ready for the prime time for busy working composers? Especially for using VEP for template?


----------



## KEM

holywilly said:


> How are you folks doing with the Mac Studio? Is it ready for the prime time for busy working composers? Especially for using VEP for template?



It’s all that and then some!


----------



## emilio_n

holywilly said:


> How are you folks doing with the Mac Studio? Is it ready for the prime time for busy working composers? Especially for using VEP for template?


I think is close to. Mine arrive in 3 weeks, but take in mind that VEP is not Apple Silicon Native.


----------



## HCMarkus

I don't use VEP, but was able to move a documentary score project in progress from a 5,1 Mac Pro running DP10.13 to a Studio running DP11.1 very successfully.


----------



## Petrucci

HCMarkus said:


> I don't use VEP, but was able to move a documentary score project in progress from a 5,1 Mac Pro running DP10.13 to a Studio running DP11.1 very successfully.


How many tracks and which players (Kontakt, etc) are being used without freezing if It's not a secret?) Some FX as well? What specs are on your Mac Studio? I'm on the verge of deciding to jump from my 5.1 too, so...)))


----------



## John DeBorde

Michael Antrum said:


> Well I finally got my shipping notice. My shiny new Mac Studio should be here May 25th. I finally opted, after much debate, to go for the Max with 64Gb and 2TB.
> 
> Which means that if they announce a killer Mac Pro for a hundred quid at WWDC on the 6th I am still within the return window. (Which might be handy - or not.)
> 
> Oddly, I'm not as flushed with the initial enthusiasm as I was when I ordered it. But my 2009 Mac Pro is knocking on a bit now.....


May I ask when you originally placed the order?


----------



## HCMarkus

Petrucci said:


> How many tracks and which players (Kontakt, etc) are being used without freezing if It's not a secret?) Some FX as well? What specs are on your Mac Studio? I'm on the verge of deciding to jump from my 5.1 too, so...)))


I'm not counting. I'm not freezing. Just composing and creating without reaching any limits at this point. 

The project doesn't involve huge track numbers, but it was bringing my 12-core to its knees fairly regularly. Now, the buffer stays at 128, opening and closing files and loading VIs is (relatively speaking) super quick, and video scrubbing snappy. I'm just way more efficient and, as a result, more creative.

I have a Mac Studio Ultra, 64GB, 2TB. Running DP11.1, mostly native plugins and VIs (Kontakt, Omnisphere, Stylus, Arturia, Waves), with a few things (Altiverb, MODO Bass, Ivory) under Rosetta2. Occasional crashes, but auto save and quick re-start times have kept bleeding to a minimum.

I bought the Ultra with the hope of being impressed. The plan worked.


----------



## Petrucci

HCMarkus said:


> I'm not counting. I'm not freezing. Just composing and creating without reaching any limits at this point.
> 
> The project doesn't involve huge track numbers, but it was bringing my 12-core to its knees fairly regularly. Now, the buffer stays at 128, opening and closing files and loading VIs is (relatively speaking) super quick, and video scrubbing snappy. I'm just way more efficient and, as a result, more creative.
> 
> I have a Mac Studio Ultra, 64GB, 2TB. Running DP11.1, mostly native plugins and VIs (Kontakt, Omnisphere, Stylus, Arturia, Waves), with a few things (Altiverb, MODO Bass, Ivory) under Rosetta2. Occasional crashes, but auto save and quick re-start times have kept bleeding to a minimum.
> 
> I bought the Ultra with the hope of being impressed. The plan worked.


Thanks a lot! Guess, I'll have to make a leap too))


----------



## Michael Antrum

Attention Please, Attention !

UPS are crap.

That is all.....


----------



## HCMarkus

Michael Antrum said:


> Attention Please, Attention !
> 
> UPS are crap.
> 
> That is all.....


Care to share the basis of your statement? We're always striving for enlightenment.


----------



## Michael Antrum

HCMarkus said:


> Care to share the basis of your statement? We're always striving for enlightenment.



They gave me a delivery slot for my new Mac Studio which was supposed to arrive today between 10.30am and 2.30pm.

At 10.30, they changed the delivery to Thursday 26th, after my wife had re-arranged her work schedule to make sure she was going to be in. Not sure she can do that again.

I shouldn't be surprised. I get expensive components shipped to me from various companies in the EU and they mess me around with delivery regularly..... Probably the worst delivery company we have to deal with. The best, by a country mile, in DPD......


----------



## Pier

Michael Antrum said:


> At 10.30, they changed the delivery to Thursday 26th, after my wife had re-arranged her work schedule to make sure she was going to be in. Not sure she can do that again.


Maybe you could call the courier and let them know you want to change the pickup location to one of their shops instead.


----------



## Delboy

still pushing the 27 size though ... bout time they offer upsize ... but at least Dell still make good monitors


----------



## Michael Antrum

Pier said:


> Maybe you could call the courier and let them know you want to change the pickup location to one of their shops instead.


Call UPS ? They are also rather crap at answering to phone too. Invariably they take 40 minutes to answer the phone, and then tell you they will call you back before the end of the day - but don't. 

(and that was when I was trying to pay them some money....)


----------



## Pier

Michael Antrum said:


> Call UPS ? They are also rather crap at answering to phone too. Invariably they take 40 minutes to answer the phone, and then tell you they will call you back before the end of the day - but don't.
> 
> (and that was when I was trying to pay them some money....)


Well I don't know about the US, but I'm almost certain in Mexico you can also do that via a chat or the tracking website.


----------



## HCMarkus

Michael Antrum said:


> They gave me a delivery slot for my new Mac Studio which was supposed to arrive today between 10.30am and 2.30pm.
> 
> At 10.30, they changed the delivery to Thursday 26th, after my wife had re-arranged her work schedule to make sure she was going to be in. Not sure she can do that again.
> 
> I shouldn't be surprised. I get expensive components shipped to me from various companies in the EU and they mess me around with delivery regularly..... Probably the worst delivery company we have to deal with. The best, by a country mile, in DPD......


I thought you were talking about Uninterruptible Power Supplies...


----------



## Michael Antrum

Pier said:


> Well I don't know about the US, but I'm almost certain in Mexico you can also do that via a chat or the tracking website.



I'm in the UK. UPS are shocking here.

A year or so ago I got a letter from them demanding just under £ 500.00. I had no idea what it was for, I had no invoice - you wouldn't think it would be too difficult for them to send me an invoice would you ?

Well six months later they still hadn't managed to send me an invoice telling me what the charge was for. I told them if they sent me an invoice and I owed the money - it would be paid immediately - but I had no idea what it could be, and they seemed at a loss too. 

By this time, they had stopped answering the phone (which usually took around 30-40 minutes when they bothered to answer at all) and you now got a voice message saying they were now only responding via email, and gave an email address. It took them three weeks to reply to my email, and was to tell me it was the wrong email address and gave me a different one.

I resent the email to the new address they supplied.

About a month later a debt collector's letter rolled up adding all sorts of charges. I rang the debt collector told him I was still waiting for the invoice as I had no idea what the charge was for. A month later I called the debt collector again and asked them for an update. They said they were having difficulty in getting a response from UPS and had no idea what the invoice was for either.

A month after this I got a reply to my second email, telling me I sent the email to the wrong email address, and the asked me to send the email to the original address I had emailed some 2-3 months previous.

About 8 weeks later I was eventually supplied an invoice for 'brokerage charges', along with some rather enthusiastic charges for late payment. I rang the debt collection company and paid the invoice but without the extra charges and told them that they would have to go to court if they wanted the overdue fees. The debt collector said that wasn't happening - and that they were having real trouble with UPS.

They are an absolute shower.......


----------



## Pier

Michael Antrum said:


> I'm in the UK. UPS are shocking here.
> 
> A year or so ago I got a letter from them demanding just under £ 500.00. I had no idea what it was for, I had no invoice - you wouldn't think it would be too difficult for them to send me an invoice would you ?
> 
> Well six months later they still hadn't managed to send me an invoice telling me what the charge was for. I told them if they sent me an invoice and I owed the money - it would be paid immediately - but I had no idea what it could be, and they seemed at a loss too. You'd think they could just email the invoice over wouldn't you ?
> 
> By this time, they had stopped answering the phone (which usually took around 30-40 minutes when they bothered to answer at all) and you now got a voice message saying they were now only responding via email, and gave an email address. It took them three weeks to reply to my email, and was to tell me it was the wrong email address and gave me a different one.
> 
> I resent the email to the new address they supplied.
> 
> About a month later a debt collector's letter rolled up adding all sorts of charges. I rang the debt collector told him I was still waiting for the invoice as I had no idea what the charge was for. A month later I called the debt collector again and asked them for an update. They said they were having difficulty in getting a response from UPS and had no idea what the invoice was for either.
> 
> A month after this I got a reply to my second email, telling me I sent the email to the wrong email address, and the asked me to send the email to the original address I had emailed some 2-3 months previous.
> 
> About 8 weeks later I was eventually supplied an invoice for 'brokerage charges', along with some rather enthusiastic charges for late payment. I rang the debt collection company and paid the invoice but without the extra charges and told them that they would have to go to court if the wanted the overdue fees. The debt collector said that wasn't happening - and that they were having real trouble with UPS.
> 
> They are an absolute shower.......


Jesus what a nightmare...

Hopefully you will be able to figure it out for the Mac Studio!


----------



## Michael Antrum

Well this morning they've changed the delivery date once again, Now it's the 27th....

It would be nice if I got it for the weekend,...


----------



## HCMarkus

Michael Antrum said:


> Well this morning they've changed the delivery date once again, Now it's the 27th....
> 
> It would be nice if I got it for the weekend,...


Fingers crossed... good luck!

Harking back to my first impression of your post and despite your disheartening experience with United Parcel Service, I DO hope you use an Uninterruptible Power Supply to protect your gear and your data.


----------



## jneebz

6 weeks early! UPS actually says by May 31st but anything is better than late July as originally stated!


----------



## Michael Antrum

jneebz said:


> 6 weeks early! UPS actually says by May 31st but anything is better than late July as originally stated!


What spec did you go for. In the end I went for the Max with 64gb and 2TB.

I just couldn't pay £ 2k for another 64gb RAM. I'm from Yorkshire, and I'd have had my citizenship revoked for that kind of profligacy.....


----------



## jneebz

Michael Antrum said:


> What spec did you go for. In the end I went for the Max with 64gb and 2TB.
> 
> I just couldn't pay £ 2k for another 64gb RAM. I'm from Yorkshire, and I'd have had my citizenship revoked for that kind of profligacy.....


Exact specs as mine!


----------



## LinusW

A storage note: My ASM1352R based drive enclosure (and its 2x Samsung QVO in RAID-0) did not work in my Mac Studio. It asked to format the unknown drives 😬
Oh well, the single USB SATA drives did work. I'm migrating to NVMe drives anyway. 

The IKEA Kuggis box on my desk contains a CalDigit Element Hub (TB4) and all external drives for the Studio. Acasis USB 4.0+Samsung 980 PRO, Sabrent EC-SNVE+Seagate Firecuda 510, Samsung T5, Sabrent EC-SS31+Samsung 860 EVO. 
I'll swap another Samsung T5 from the iMac for the dual QVO drive enclosure to have both iMac and Mac Studio happy.


----------



## Eulenauge66

Got my Mac Studio here in Germany after about two weeks after ordering it. It is my main computer now, libraries running mostly on a slave PC via VEP7. Everything smooth and beautiful so far!


----------



## Spid

Eulenauge66 said:


> Got my Mac Studio here in Germany after about two weeks after ordering it. It is my main computer now, libraries running mostly on a slave PC via VEP7. Everything smooth and beautiful so far!


nice, I heard many rumours from people using Logic Pro (so obviously on a Mac) with a slave PC and they said it wasn't always super stable. They recommended to use PC DAW with PC Slave and Mac DAW with Mac Slave to be more stable. 

Do you have any issue with a Slave PC and Mac DAW?


----------



## Eulenauge66

Not at all. I am using Cubase, and vast orchestral templates. All works fine. With the Synergy app I can use mouse & keyboard on both systems, so it almost feels like one. 

And I love the Apple ecosystem, so I benefit from that.


----------



## Spid

I like Apple eco-system too, that's why I stayed on this platform (even if some PC are cheaper). I don't hate PC, I just like Mac and I'm used to and I got all my stuff on Mac now... I was just wondering if slave PC would work good with Mac DAW... it seems like Cubase works fine, but I'm not sure with Logic Pro. 

I wish I could use a Mac Studio as a VEP server for my MBP, but that would be some serious investment I would need to think twice... that's why I keep an eye on this thread. 

I appreciate all your feedback, it helps.


----------



## LinusW

Spid said:


> Do you have any issue with a Slave PC and Mac DAW?


Not had any stability issues. Just plugin compatibility issues with VEP, that's all. 
Also no difference if I've been using Cubase, Logic, Reason or Live.


----------



## Michael Antrum

Just had a text from Apple.....and it's finally arrived.

Something for the Weekend, Sir ?


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo

Eulenauge66 said:


> Got my Mac Studio here in Germany after about two weeks after ordering it. It is my main computer now, libraries running mostly on a slave PC via VEP7. Everything smooth and beautiful so far!


Awww duuu. Mine takes 4 weeks more and the damn display even longer. Naja warten….


----------



## Michael Antrum

Well I've spent the day setting the New Mac Studio up. The first thing is just how quiet it is. I just doesn't seem to make any noise. It's a little black hole.

The weird thing is that I'm getting all nostalgic about the 2009 Mac Pro. It's almost as if I'm feeling guilty running off with this young floozy, whilst the one who has stood by me and never let me down all these years is getting the heave ho. I am obviously an utter bastard. (Definately re-enacting the end of Toy Story here. I should lay off the drink.)

I've gone for a new install for everything and God it's time consuming - but some of the crap I haven't installed - well I probably haven't ever used it in anger. (I'm Looking at you AIR.)

I have a large amount of my desk back too.

Mac Pros with decent specs seem to be going for under £ 200 at the moment, so I think I'll let my dad have it - he's in his 80's now and his PC isn't the best.

All I need is VSL to get the native stuff out, and then I'll be well on the way. Oh, and UAD - slackers.

Happy I went for the 64Gb Max CPU 2TB. I'll just have to be a bit clever with the RAM.....

Of course Tim Cook is going to announce a Mac Pro on June 6th (just inside the return window) that's going to be killer....


----------



## HCMarkus

Michael Antrum said:


> Of course Tim Cook is going to announce a Mac Pro on June 6th (just inside the return window) that's going to be killer....


I fully expect to start seeing kidneys for sale shortly thereafter. 

Congrats on your new machine!


----------



## Spid

if only we could get a Max with 128GB...


----------



## NuNativs

HCMarkus said:


> I fully expect to start seeing kidneys for sale shortly thereafter.
> 
> Congrats on your new machine!


How much can I get for an alcohol riddled liver?


----------



## Spid

NuNativs said:


> How much can I get for an alcohol riddled liver?


32GB RAM and 1TB SSD... maybe 🤣


----------



## LinusW

LinusW said:


> A storage note: My ASM1352R based drive enclosure (and its 2x Samsung QVO in RAID-0) did not work in my Mac Studio. It asked to format the unknown drives 😬
> Oh well, the single USB SATA drives did work. I'm migrating to NVMe drives anyway.
> 
> The IKEA Kuggis box on my desk contains a CalDigit Element Hub (TB4) and all external drives for the Studio. Acasis USB 4.0+Samsung 980 PRO, Sabrent EC-SNVE+Seagate Firecuda 510, Samsung T5, Sabrent EC-SS31+Samsung 860 EVO.
> I'll swap another Samsung T5 from the iMac for the dual QVO drive enclosure to have both iMac and Mac Studio happy.


And now my Sabrent EC-SNVE died. Replaced it with another Icy Box IB-1817M-C31.


----------



## mscp

Nimrod7 said:


> I totally agree to that.
> 
> I had a MacBook Pro setup connected to a dual display, alongside ethernet etc on a CalDigit Element Hub, which is supposed to be the most reliable hub!
> 
> Even with the most "reliable" I had tons of problems, from monitors not turning on until I disconnect a cable, to the ethernet not recognized.
> 
> This is the reason I moved to the Mac Studio setup in the first place.


Everybody swears by Caldigit products but I often read some pretty awful reviews on Amazon. I use a Belkin Thunderbolt dock and never had issues except a high pitched noise coming from inside the unit.


----------



## LinusW

mscp said:


> Everybody swears by Caldigit products but I often read some pretty awful reviews on Amazon. I use a Belkin Thunderbolt dock and never had issues except a high pitched noise coming from inside the unit.


I use OWC, Belkin and CalDigit docks. They all work for me and I've fortunately not heard any high pitched noises from any of them.


----------



## Nimrod7

LinusW said:


> I use OWC, Belkin and CalDigit docks. They all work for me and I've fortunately not heard any high pitched noises from any of them.


We have OWC at work, same story monitors not turning on, etc.
I have a caldigit TS3+ in my home office, and works but the setup is simple, it just has a webcam and a monitor in it.
My understanding is if you have lot of stuff connected the chances for them to fail are higher.

I would personally avoid them in the future. I have spend tremendous amount of time and energy troubleshooting them. If I need a desktop, I will just buy one.


----------



## Marsen

mscp said:


> Everybody swears by Caldigit products but I often read some pretty awful reviews on Amazon. I use a Belkin Thunderbolt dock and never had issues except a high pitched noise coming from inside the unit.


Caldigit TB4 Element Hub here. No problems.


Nimrod7 said:


> My understanding is if you have lot of stuff connected the chances for them to fail are higher.


5 ssd‘s, 2 hd‘s, no problems yet.


----------



## rnb_2

My Element Hub has the following plugged into it:

OWC Envoy Express Thunderbolt SSD
Thunderbolt Gigabit Ethernet adapter
Akitio 2-slot Thunderbolt PCIe enclosure (2 SSDs + DisplayPort to my 4k display, plus a USB-C SSD enclosure in the second Thunderbolt port)
Rode AI-1 USB Audio interface
PreSonus Atom SQ controller
2-port USB2 hub on my BenQ display (connected to two MIDI controllers)
4-port USB3 hub (Wacom tablet, never-used Samson Meteor USB microphone, iLok key)

This lets me live the "1-cable lifestyle", which makes migrating between my two desks as simple as possible (the second desk has an OWC Thunderbolt 3 dock with a similar mix of devices, though fewer drives). No issues with either dock thus far - the OWC is a few years old, the Element a little over a year. I don't actually have anything that draws that much power from the Element Hub - the PCIe enclosure is self-powered, and most of my USB devices are only USB2 and fairly low power draw.


----------



## Tronam

Marsen said:


> Caldigit TB4 Element Hub here. No problems.
> 
> 5 ssd‘s, 2 hd‘s, no problems yet.


I have that one as well and it's been fantastic. It was unfortunately difficult to find, but ended up being worth the wait. The only occasional issue I've run into is improper disconnect errors with external drives when sleeping my Mac. I never really found a solution outside of ejecting them before sleeping. Now that the Mac Studio has so many ports I just plug them in directly now and use the hub for everything else.


----------



## tmhuud

NuNativs said:


> How much can I get for an alcohol riddled liver?


I’ll let you know!


----------



## Nimrod7

My experience maybe it has to do with exhausting (or being really close) the limits of the bandwidth of the thunderbolt interface:

It had connected:

An LG 4K Display,
An XP-Pen 2K Pen Display
A 10Gbps SFP+ Thunderbolt Adapter
A StreamDeck
A small hub hosting an ilok, an elicenser and a davinci resolve dongle.

in the LG's T3 Hub (which you can daisychain devices) it had connected:
A UA Arrow
A Wacom Intuos

The most common problems I had was:

- The Pen Display most of the times would not turn on after connecting the Element cable to an already turn on Mac,
- The 10Gbps ethernet sometimes was not recognized until the MacBook was rebooted.
- Connecting a USB SSD to the USB port of the element was not always utilizing the full speed of the SSD, sometimes it was outputting 50MB/s, sometimes 250MB/s.


----------



## Marsen

Tronam said:


> I have that one as well and it's been fantastic. It was unfortunately difficult to find, but ended up being worth the wait. The only occasional issue I've run into is improper disconnect errors with external drives when sleeping my Mac. I never really found a solution outside of ejecting them before sleeping. Now that the Mac Studio has so many ports I just plug them in directly now and use the hub for everything else.


From my understanding, other than a screensaver, you should not sleep the mac then using as a daw.


----------



## mscp

Nimrod7 said:


> - Connecting a USB SSD to the USB port of the element was not always utilizing the full speed of the SSD, sometimes it was outputting 50MB/s, sometimes 250MB/s.


Monterey, and APFS?


----------



## Nimrod7

mscp said:


> Monterey, and APFS?


yes


----------



## mscp

Nimrod7 said:


> yes


Monterey hates USB-C external ssds with APFS (so far). Reformat to HFS+ and you'll get consistent read/write speeds.


----------



## Tronam

Marsen said:


> From my understanding, other than a screensaver, you should not sleep the mac then using as a daw.


I could just do a full shutdown every night, although now that the drives are plugged directly into the Mac this problem doesn't occur any longer.


----------



## Marsen

Tronam said:


> I could just do a full shutdown every night, although now that the drives are plugged directly into the Mac this problem doesn't occur any longer.


That’s, what I do.


----------



## Nimrod7

mscp said:


> Monterey hates USB-C external ssds with APFS (so far). Reformat to HFS+ and you'll get consistent read/write speeds.


Do you have any source that I can read more about it? Tried to google but bump into random things... 

In my case disconnecting the drive from the hub, and connecting it directly to macbook was solving the speed issues.


----------



## odod

I am saving my money to buy this, anyone can vouch that Mac Studo M1 MAX with 32gb 512gb is enough for just making simple music and basic video editing??


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo

My thing got sent, wow. Just a matter of days until i can let it sit sealed in the box some more weeks until the display will arrive. Apple was nice for granting me free extended return service though.


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo

odod said:


> I am saving my money to buy this, anyone can vouch that Mac Studo M1 MAX with 32gb 512gb is enough for just making simple music and basic video editing??


The simpler the music the more cores?

Im doing video cutting in 4K on my m1 [email protected] GB, and its fluid like hell.
Even animation in motion 5 or 3D in Blender runs like a little dream.


----------



## AndyP

Since I need a new MacBook I'm buying a 13.3" M1 MacBook Pro with 16GB Ram this afternoon. Used but in good condition for a small amount of money. Since I will keep my maxed i9 iMac for quite a while, a MacStudio is not yet on the agenda, but a mobile device had to come.
Since I was able to sketch well on my MBP 2013, it should go at least as well, rather better with the small M1. Since I still have a mobile 15.6 inch display that is operated via USB-C, I also have few concerns about the small MB display.
I am very excited, this is my first M1 device.


----------



## ReleaseCandidate

odod said:


> I am saving my money to buy this, anyone can vouch that Mac Studo M1 MAX with 32gb 512gb is enough for just making simple music and basic video editing??


That's what I use. You just want to connect some external SSDs.


----------



## mscp

Nimrod7 said:


> Do you have any source that I can read more about it? Tried to google but bump into random things...
> 
> In my case disconnecting the drive from the hub, and connecting it directly to macbook was solving the speed issues.


I'm the source since I was the one who found out. I've escalated to Cupertino to see what they can do about it. Yes, connecting it directly will kind of solve it, but if your read/write speeds are still wonky, that's because you're using it with USB-C/Monterey/APFS. It's an issue, especially with Samsung T7 and LaCie external ssds.
I was getting really weird read speeds while my write speeds were kind of fine. Then, I repartitioned my drives to HFS+ and now I'm getting close to 90% of what they are advertised to reach.
Do it and you will see.


----------



## mscp

Tronam said:


> I have that one as well and it's been fantastic. It was unfortunately difficult to find, but ended up being worth the wait. The only occasional issue I've run into is improper disconnect errors with external drives when sleeping my Mac. I never really found a solution outside of ejecting them before sleeping. Now that the Mac Studio has so many ports I just plug them in directly now and use the hub for everything else.


Were you using the Caldigit with an M1 Max laptop?


----------



## odod

ReleaseCandidate said:


> That's what I use. You just want to connect some external SSDs.


is it reliable and fast enough with tons of plugins and vsti?


----------



## ReleaseCandidate

odod said:


> is it reliable and fast enough with tons of plugins and vsti?


Yes and no, depending on your definition of 'tons' and the buffer size - like any computer is. 
Reliable it is, the only problem is Mission Control (Mac OS' workspace manager) that sometimes needs a 'killall Dock'.


----------



## Pier

odod said:


> I am saving my money to buy this, anyone can vouch that Mac Studo M1 MAX with 32gb 512gb is enough for just making simple music and basic video editing??


Why not get a Mini for that?


----------



## locash

Is there any composer YouTube videos showing off the difference between the Max and the Ultra? (virtual instrument count and performance with Logic pref). Watched a number of generalists and video editor videos.


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo

AndyP said:


> I am very excited, this is my first M1 device.


Expect no wonders vs the i9. Still something new


----------



## AndyP

I only compare this to my old MBP 2013, because this is only my mobile setup. The i9 runs 128 gigs of ram, so there will be some limitations compared to that.


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo

AndyP said:


> I only compare this to my old MBP 2013


Compare those two? That could end as brutal as Rocky 4.


----------



## AndyP

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> Compare those two? That could end as brutal as Rocky 4.


Indeed! I have now installed Cubase 12, all AI libraries, Noire, Symphobias etc. and it runs very stable and performs great. Had to remove several plugins, but that was not a big problem. Even Seventh Heaven via iLok Cloud runs without problems. Cubase without dongle, that I may still experience this!
Absolutely no comparison to the old MacBook.
Tomorrow I will try how OPUS and VSL run on the MB. So far I am extremely satisfied.


----------



## Aphexa

Hi, everyone. So, finally the day has come and I can order my new rig in 2-3 weeks. 
I'm seriously thinking of getting the Mac Studio (M1 Max 10core CPU 16-core GPU; 64GB RAM; 1TB storage).
My other option was 17" 3XS Scan Laptop (i7 8core, 64GB RAM, 2TB Nvme + 4TB Nvme for samples), but unfortunately, they can't put it together as they're missing some parts and will not have them for couple of months. 


I have never in my life used a Mac and this is a big decision for me, but I do feel I might be ready for it  What do I need to know?
Btw. I'm a film and media composer and I'm working in Cubase (12 Pro)

If I go with the Mac Studio, I plan to get 2tb Samsung SSD (should I go with QVO or EVO?), as I already have 1TB. I do have Inateck's docking station, but that's USB 3. Will that be fine, or do you recommend getting something else?
My overall budget is 3000£ 
I just want to be 100% ready for the switch. 
I'd be happy to hear how do you guys find it so far, whoever has the Mac Studio with those specs.

Thanks


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo

Aphexa said:


> I have never in my life used a Mac and this is a big decision for me, but I do feel I might be ready for it  What do I need to know?


Prepare for hotkey brainfuck first a lot.
Snoop into the osx file structure early maybe, its simple…but the finder isn’t what you know from the Win file explorer until you customize simple needful behaviors and settings.


----------



## rnb_2

Aphexa said:


> Hi, everyone. So, finally the day has come and I can order my new rig in 2-3 weeks.
> I'm seriously thinking of getting the Mac Studio (M1 Max 10core CPU 16-core GPU; 64GB RAM; 1TB storage).
> My other option was 17" 3XS Scan Laptop (i7 8core, 64GB RAM, 2TB Nvme + 4TB Nvme for samples), but unfortunately, they can't put it together as they're missing some parts and will not have them for couple of months.
> 
> 
> I have never in my life used a Mac and this is a big decision for me, but I do feel I might be ready for it  What do I need to know?
> Btw. I'm a film and media composer and I'm working in Cubase (12 Pro)
> 
> If I go with the Mac Studio, I plan to get 2tb Samsung SSD (should I go with QVO or EVO?), as I already have 1TB. I do have Inateck's docking station, but that's USB 3. Will that be fine, or do you recommend getting something else?
> My overall budget is 3000£
> I just want to be 100% ready for the switch.
> I'd be happy to hear how do you guys find it so far, whoever has the Mac Studio with those specs.
> 
> Thanks


Good luck with the purchase - hope they're able to get it to you without too much delay.

I think you're getting 8 more GPU cores than you said, as the Max starts at 24...

I'm generally biased toward Thunderbolt peripherals instead of USB, but the performance benefit may not show up with sample libraries. Also, make sure you have a good backup system in place - macOS comes with Time Machine built-in, so you just have to point it at a big external hard drive and it will do everything else automatically.

If you run into issues once it arrives, ask away - there are many long-time Mac users here.


----------



## Aphexa

Thanks a lot, guys  This really helps. 
I'm changing my mind constantly  I'm sure I'll not know what I want till the last day haha
There are pros and cons both ways. I just found out that NI Reaktor is probably not compatible with Windows 11. Cmon! Ah, constant struggles LOL


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo

Aphexa said:


> Thanks a lot, guys  This really helps.
> I'm changing my mind constantly


Dont know if it helps, but, if you drop a mac or win pc from a building at the same time, which will be the faster one hitting the ground?
Correct, its all about cores.


----------



## Aphexa

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> Dont know if it helps, but, if you drop a mac or win pc from a building at the same time, which will be the faster one hitting the ground?
> Correct, its all about cores.


Hahaha 😄 I love this! True, true 😊


----------



## Michael Antrum

Get the Mac. I've heard Tim Cook really needs the money.....


----------



## Aphexa

Michael Antrum said:


> Get the Mac. I've heard Tim Cook really needs the money.....


Of course he does 😄


----------



## AndyP

Even though I don't have a Mac Studio, the MacBook Pro M1 rocks. The memory is actually better utilized somehow and I loaded a template with 50 instruments, nothing purged, and it doesn't even swap. It definitely didn't run that way on my old MacBook. The processor gets bored even though I use a lot of legato tracks. Soaring Strings, Con Moto, Woodwinds, Cinebrass; Cineperc ... unbelievable how efficient it runs.
Preoload on Kontakt at minimum, buffer 256 ... and I have the feeling that there is still a lot more to do.
That feels really good.


----------



## Pier

Aphexa said:


> Thanks a lot, guys  This really helps.
> I'm changing my mind constantly  I'm sure I'll not know what I want till the last day haha
> There are pros and cons both ways. I just found out that NI Reaktor is probably not compatible with Windows 11. Cmon! Ah, constant struggles LOL


Pick your poison.

*Desktop PC Pros*

More flexibility in hardware and software
Easy to repair and upgrade anywhere in the world
You can salvage components for your next build
Long term backwards compatibility
You can game on it
*Desktop PC Cons*

It will be more noisy (unless you know what you're doing and buying silent components)
Less portable than a Mac Mini or Studio
Audio drivers generally suck
You can have unexpected problems such as DPC latency. These are generally solvable but might be a headache.
Windows is fugly (but you might never see it if you're just using a DAW)
*Desktop M1 Mac pros*

macOS has better UX
Better audio drivers
Silent and beautiful
You can use Logic
Very portable
*Desktop M1 cons*

Closed hardware system. No upgrades.
May be more expensive depending on the configuration than a similar PC
Expensive repairs (specially outside the US)
Good luck if shtf and you don't live near an Apple store
Good luck if Apple decides it doesn't want to repair your machine 10 years from now
Apple's shenanigans like dropping support for 32 bits


----------



## ReleaseCandidate

Pier said:


> It will be more noisy (unless you know what you're doing and buying silent components)


There is no way to get comparable _G_PU performance as silent as with a Studio.
That's one of the reasons I have one


----------



## Aphexa

Pier said:


> Pick your poison.
> 
> *Desktop PC Pros*
> 
> More flexibility in hardware and software
> Easy to repair and upgrade anywhere in the world
> You can salvage components for your next build
> Long term backwards compatibility
> You can game on it
> *Desktop PC Cons*
> 
> It will be more noisy (unless you know what you're doing and buying silent components)
> Less portable than a Mac Mini or Studio
> Audio drivers generally suck
> You can have unexpected problems such as DPC latency. These are generally solvable but might be a headache.
> Windows is fugly (but you might never see it if you're just using a DAW)
> *Desktop M1 Mac pros*
> 
> macOS has better UX
> Better audio drivers
> Silent and beautiful
> You can use Logic
> Very portable
> *Desktop M1 cons*
> 
> Closed hardware system. No upgrades.
> May be more expensive depending on the configuration than a similar PC
> Expensive repairs (specially outside the US)
> Good luck if shtf and you don't live near an Apple store
> Good luck if Apple decides it doesn't want to repair your machine 10 years from now
> Apple's shenanigans like dropping support for 32 bits


Yep. Thanks for all of this. 
Atm I lean more towards PC, and if I go that way I will definitely stay on Windows 10 (pro) as I've heard a lot about win11 that I didn't like. And am seriously considering Ryzen CPU 🤔


----------



## Nimrod7

If you get a Mac, get the Apple Care protection plan to get the 3 year warranty.
For the Studio is quite affordable ending up costing $60/year which totally worth the piece of mind.

I run both PC and Macs in the studio, but I personally can’t stand working on PCs for audio for the reasons mentioned already.

The only reasons I have still PCs are having access to NVidia GPUs for non music related stuff.


----------



## Pier

ReleaseCandidate said:


> There is no way to get comparable _G_PU performance as silent as with a Studio.
> That's one of the reasons I have one


You can always add liquid cooling or some passive radiator. It's a headache for sure but you can make a PC completely silent.


----------



## clonewar

Pier said:


> Pick your poison.
> 
> *Desktop PC Pros*
> 
> More flexibility in hardware and software
> Easy to repair and upgrade anywhere in the world
> You can salvage components for your next build
> Long term backwards compatibility
> You can game on it
> *Desktop PC Cons*
> 
> It will be more noisy (unless you know what you're doing and buying silent components)
> Less portable than a Mac Mini or Studio
> Audio drivers generally suck
> You can have unexpected problems such as DPC latency. These are generally solvable but might be a headache.
> Windows is fugly (but you might never see it if you're just using a DAW)
> *Desktop M1 Mac pros*
> 
> macOS has better UX
> Better audio drivers
> Silent and beautiful
> You can use Logic
> Very portable
> *Desktop M1 cons*
> 
> Closed hardware system. No upgrades.
> May be more expensive depending on the configuration than a similar PC
> Expensive repairs (specially outside the US)
> Good luck if shtf and you don't live near an Apple store
> Good luck if Apple decides it doesn't want to repair your machine 10 years from now
> Apple's shenanigans like dropping support for 32 bits


This is a good pros and cons list. The only thing I would disagree with are audio drivers. If you stick with RME interfaces on the PC the drivers are just as good as what you’ll get on the Mac. And of course with a PC you’ll have the option to use PCIe interfaces without needing an external enclosure.


----------



## method1

clonewar said:


> This is a good pros and cons list. The only thing I would disagree with are audio drivers. If you stick with RME interfaces on the PC the drivers are just as good as what you’ll get on the Mac. And of course with a PC you’ll have the option to use PCIe interfaces without needing an external enclosure.



Core audio is multi client / has aggregate functions unlike ASIO, and also makes inter app routing extremely simple if that kind of stuff is useful to you, it's just a more audio friendly environment IMO.


----------



## Pier

clonewar said:


> This is a good pros and cons list. The only thing I would disagree with are audio drivers. If you stick with RME interfaces on the PC the drivers are just as good as what you’ll get on the Mac. And of course with a PC you’ll have the option to use PCIe interfaces without needing an external enclosure.


Sure RME has good drivers but that's just one manufacturer. There are dozens and not all have solid drivers.


----------



## clonewar

method1 said:


> Core audio is multi client / has aggregate functions unlike ASIO, and also makes inter app routing extremely simple if that kind of stuff is useful to you, it's just a more audio friendly environment IMO.


RME’s ASIO drivers are multi client in Windows, and they can aggregate multiple RME cards so that the DAW sees them as a single interface.


----------



## clonewar

Pier said:


> Sure RME has good drivers but that's just one manufacturer. There are dozens and not all have solid drivers.


Of course, but as far as I’m concerned if you’re using a Windows DAW you should be using an RME interface. I have both Macs and PCs in my studio and have been through the ASIO interface/driver carousel in Windows (with the scars to prove it). RME really levels the playing field as far as audio drivers are concerned.


----------



## ReleaseCandidate

Pier said:


> You can always add liquid cooling or some passive radiator. It's a headache for sure but you can make a PC completely silent.


You can't just add passive cooling to a 'better' GPU (which draw's about 175W) without a case fan or a fan on the radiator. So 'completely silent' does not work out. And getting it as silent as a Studio under long, full load without throttling is something I have not seen to be done (at a reasonable price) - that's the problem Apple always had with their Intels, and they all had way worse GPUs back then.


----------



## Pier

clonewar said:


> have been through the ASIO interface/driver carousel in Windows (with the scars to prove it)


Ok so you're agreeing with me, yes? 



ReleaseCandidate said:


> You can't just add passive cooling to a 'better' GPU (which draw's about 175W) without a case fan or a fan on the radiator. So 'completely silent' does not work out. And getting it as silent as a Studio under long, full load without throttling is something I have not seen to be done (at a reasonable price)


You can passively cool 175W of TDP. Of course, it's expensive, ridiculous, and impractical. See this LTT video where they passively cool a 18 core i9 CPU and a 1080 GPU.

I wonder what you're using the GPU for with long sustained full load workloads on macOS though? 🤔

Edit:

Oh I forgot to mention that Noctua has a 125W passive cooler. Sure, it's not 175W but it's quite impressive for something that is basically plug and play (given you have a big enough case 😂).


----------



## method1

clonewar said:


> RME’s ASIO drivers are multi client in Windows, and they can aggregate multiple RME cards so that the DAW sees them as a single interface.


Yes, but you couldn't add an old focusrite you had lying around to the RME aggregate (if you suddenly needed some xtra channels), like you could with coreaudio.


----------



## locash

Just ordered the Mac Studio M1 Max w 64 Jigga Watts of Ram. Wondering if I should have upgraded to the 20 core CPU but delivery time tripled. Need this bad boy yesterday. Estimated 4-6 week delivery. Coming from my 2013 iMac (32gig ram) this should be a nice little bump. Was eyeing the ULTRA w 128 but felt it could be overkill. I don't do massive templates. Stoked to hear other Logic users and their experience with these boxes.


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo

Nimrod7 said:


> If you get a Mac, get the Apple Care protection plan to get the 3 year warranty.
> For the Studio is quite affordable ending up costing $60/year which totally worth the piece of mind.


Ah, by the way, you can still buy/activate the apple care two months after the purchase. Could help someone sorting the pennies.


----------



## musicmic1234

So I'm curious what you guys think about the m1 ultra vs 12900k/5750x if the use case is:
1. Hackintosh/ Logic x
2. Live low latency needs (32ms using kontakt and virtual instruments mixed with MS plugs like ozone).

Essentially Scan Pro, Pete has the nice Dawbench scores for Reaper using Windows but hackintosh real world use seems to be quite different these days with no native support so the P+E core (big.little) architecture might never make it to the native osx code if they stick with the M1 ARM architecture.

Just wondering if these m1 chips are capable of even what my current 4790k can do in terms of 1 core. Like lots of software still is not taking advantage of multicore especially in live low latency settings where the 1st core gets hammered its all about sheer speed so 5ghz cpus perform better than 3ghz multi core beasts. 

I want both but willing to sacrifice some cores for speed thats why an 12900k sounds so amazing but the issues with Opencore and usb etc etc, 

I would love to own this little M1 Ultra. Apple makes things look amazing. I just dont know if it really is worth 4k if the intention is live use with a bunch of virtual instruments. What do you guys think?

Id love for Pete to start doing Hackintosh Dawbench scores just to compare. i know real world is different but just for comparisons sake with the Kontakt vs the ones where you just load up blank instances until it crashes... that test is only good for multicore.


----------



## Radium

Here you go look what's coming buy what you need now don't worry about the future .


----------



## gsilbers

musicmic1234 said:


> So I'm curious what you guys think about the m1 ultra vs 12900k/5750x if the use case is:
> 1. Hackintosh/ Logic x
> 2. Live low latency needs (32ms using kontakt and virtual instruments mixed with MS plugs like ozone).
> 
> Essentially Scan Pro, Pete has the nice Dawbench scores for Reaper using Windows but hackintosh real world use seems to be quite different these days with no native support so the P+E core (big.little) architecture might never make it to the native osx code if they stick with the M1 ARM architecture.
> 
> Just wondering if these m1 chips are capable of even what my current 4790k can do in terms of 1 core. Like lots of software still is not taking advantage of multicore especially in live low latency settings where the 1st core gets hammered its all about sheer speed so 5ghz cpus perform better than 3ghz multi core beasts.
> 
> I want both but willing to sacrifice some cores for speed thats why an 12900k sounds so amazing but the issues with Opencore and usb etc etc,
> 
> I would love to own this little M1 Ultra. Apple makes things look amazing. I just dont know if it really is worth 4k if the intention is live use with a bunch of virtual instruments. What do you guys think?
> 
> Id love for Pete to start doing Hackintosh Dawbench scores just to compare. i know real world is different but just for comparisons sake with the Kontakt vs the ones where you just load up blank instances until it crashes... that test is only good for multicore.


From my understanting the advantages of the m1 is tha it has gpu, ram and cpu all in one therefore can be faster overall than separate components. 

Its very fast



Mac Benchmarks - Geekbench Browser





Processor Benchmarks - Geekbench Browser




I think its just the cognitive dissonance part of seeing something so small and new be so powerfull when weve been accustomed to large rigs with large grpahics cards and cases. Both of those costing about the same. 

Also, not to mention the pita that hackingtosh are. And of course its limited time until apple drops intel.


----------



## Nachivnik

Of note if Thunderbolt 3 versus Thunderbolt 4 matters to you:
The M2 MacBook Air has two Thunderbolt 3 ports
The M2 MacBook Pro also has two Thunderbolt 3 ports
The M1Pro/Max MacBook Pro's have 3 Thunderbolt 4 ports (and MagSafe for power, and HDMI)
The Mac Studio M1 Max has 4 Thunderbolt 4 ports (and 2 USB 3 ports) (and 2 USB A ports, HDMI, and ethernet port)
The Mac Studio M1 Ultra has 6 Thunderbolt 4 ports (and 2 USB A ports, HDMI, and ethernet port)
The M1 Mac mini has 2 Thunderbolt 3 ports (and 2 USB A ports, HDMI, and ethernet port)

The higher-end products really have a lot more ports.

Oops - meant this for the other active thread about the new M2 stuff. Applies here, too.


----------



## charlesparente

HCMarkus said:


> Backing up is the only way you ever truly have your data. Backblaze is one layer between us and disaster. I also run Time Machine and make manual daily backups. I never want to lose a day's work again, and a lot more than a day's work can be lost when a drive fails, or a fire burns down your studio (both of which have happened to me), or...
> 
> BB is inexpensive when you have lots of data to back up. Most folks who work in our field do.
> 
> Easy to set up. Do it, and do Time Machine, too.


I use Backblaze for backing up my system drive and my HD where all my DAW project files/mixdowns, etc are kept. 

Works beautifully. Never a problem.
I never really embraced Time Machine.


----------



## HCMarkus

charlesparente said:


> I use Backblaze for backing up my system drive and my HD where all my DAW project files/mixdowns, etc are kept.
> 
> Works beautifully. Never a problem.
> I never really embraced Time Machine.


BB is great, but Time Machine is also good; especially so if you need to restore your OS and Applications... BB does not back these items up. 

Redundancy is annoying except when it comes to backups.


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo

Soo my thingy Studio finally arrived. That unboxing was the best part….until the Display arrives in who knows when. Apple granted me discount (wow) for waiting and extended the return period. 
Really nice of them


----------



## emilio_n

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> Soo my thingy Studio finally arrived. That unboxing was the best part….until the Display arrives in who knows when. Apple granted me discount (wow) for waiting and extended the return period.
> Really nice of them


I am still waiting for mine... for more than 2 months...
Hopefully, both the display and the Mac Studio will arrive next week. I don't think they granted any discount to me and about the return period, Apple Hong Kong is so weird that don't allow returns at all.


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo

emilio_n said:


> Apple Hong Kong is so weird that don't allow returns at all.


Weird. My Caveman mind thinks its disgraceful to return something to the seller in Asia? Not Apples fault, nooo.


----------



## emilio_n

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> Weird. My Caveman mind thinks its disgraceful to return something to the seller in Asia? Not Apples fault, nooo.


I asked Apple and they told me is something they only do in Hong Kong. Don’t ask me the reason… 🤷🏻‍♂️


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo

emilio_n said:


> I asked Apple and they told me is something they only do in Hong Kong. Don’t ask me the reason… 🤷🏻‍♂️


Black Market, smuggling and scalping eventually.


----------



## emilio_n

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> Black Market, smuggling and scalping eventually.


I guess... People return all the time all the products. This happens worldwide, but maybe in Hong Kong, there isn't a law forcing companies to have return policies. A shame because this is one of the positive points of Apple. 

Anyway... what Apple Studio did you order?


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo

emilio_n said:


> I guess... People return all the time all the products. This happens worldwide, but maybe in Hong Kong, there isn't a law forcing companies to have return policies. A shame because this is one of the positive points of Apple.


Ah well no need to return if you are happy.



emilio_n said:


> Anyway... what Apple Studio did you order?


The max with 64 gummibears. CPU wise im still fine with my current i5 imac. Atm. on a track with about 20 instances of Diva/Dune/Repro, some Kontakt libs and much more. No freezing, the i5 doesn’t care at all.


----------



## IFM

I received my M1 Ultra with 128gb Ram and 8TB drive and finally had some time to start working on projects with it. I use both Cubase and Logic and see I'll be migrating back to LP full time. This replaces a Mac Pro 6,1 12 core with 64GB.

The Mac is excellent as far as speed goes and loading samples from the internal drive is much faster than off the external SSD's. 

I was writing a lot of music in Cubase over the last year with some occasional Logic use but now that I'm on Apple Silicon I'm dealing with the mess that is plugin compatibility and also driver compatibility (in Cubase). 

Some examples: Cubase in Rossata mode: You get most things back, but some of Spitfire's plugins don't work and have to be run in Native, but if you run Native, then you lose tons of plugins because even though many have gone to native M1, they still don't have a VST3 version. Plus, running Cubase in Rosetta makes my Avid S1 useless as it only communicates with Cubase in native mode. I'd have to run Avid in Rosseta first. It's a bit of a PITA.

Logic, on the other hand, handles this a lot more elegantly as it apparently runs a hybrid mode where if a plugin needs Rosseta, it handles that in real-time and doesn't exclude it from being able to load it.

Outside of that and just getting back in the groove of LP (and making sure all my plugins are updated) the machine is pretty amazing and should be part of the studio for years to come.


----------



## dflood

For you Mac Studio early adopters, any opinions, observations on the core count. Does it matter?


----------



## tmhuud

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> The max with 64 gummibears.


Im sorry , I’m stealing your gummybear quote. .


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo

tmhuud said:


> Im sorry , I’m stealing your gummybear quote. .


Why? Did your RAM melt in the sun?


----------



## IFM

dflood said:


> For you Mac Studio early adopters, any opinions, observations on the core count. Does it matter?


I Cubase I didn't look at the Activity Monitor. In Logic if you want to use more than the performance cores you need to specify that, otherwise AUTO I believe just picks the performance cores, which may be where I leave it since it is so efficient that it never breaks a sweat with heavy projects I've tried so far...and that's with many plugins being translated in real time.

I have not tried DP yet.


----------



## HCMarkus

DP11. is working great. I haven't been monitoring core usage on the Studio Ultra... have to take a look at that in Activity Monitor when I think of it. DP's CPU Monitor doesn't give a breakdown of core usage, but I've been able to work with much smaller buffer sizes on projects that used to max out my 12 Core 5,1 Mac Pro. And video scrubbing is excellent, unlike the 5,1.


----------



## Michael Antrum

HCMarkus said:


> DP11. is working great. I haven't been monitoring core usage on the Studio Ultra... have to take a look at that in Activity Monitor when I think of it. DP's CPU Monitor doesn't give a breakdown of core usage, but I've been able to work with much smaller buffer sizes on projects that used to max out my 12 Core 5,1 Mac Pro. And video scrubbing is excellent, unlike the 5,1.


I use iStat Menu to keep an eye on my vital statistics.....


----------



## samphony

IFM said:


> I received my M1 Ultra with 128gb Ram and 8TB drive and finally had some time to start working on projects with it. I use both Cubase and Logic and see I'll be migrating back to LP full time. This replaces a Mac Pro 6,1 12 core with 64GB.
> 
> The Mac is excellent as far as speed goes and loading samples from the internal drive is much faster than off the external SSD's.
> 
> I was writing a lot of music in Cubase over the last year with some occasional Logic use but now that I'm on Apple Silicon I'm dealing with the mess that is plugin compatibility and also driver compatibility (in Cubase).
> 
> Some examples: Cubase in Rossata mode: You get most things back, but some of Spitfire's plugins don't work and have to be run in Native, but if you run Native, then you lose tons of plugins because even though many have gone to native M1, they still don't have a VST3 version. Plus, running Cubase in Rosetta makes my Avid S1 useless as it only communicates with Cubase in native mode. I'd have to run Avid in Rosseta first. It's a bit of a PITA.
> 
> Logic, on the other hand, handles this a lot more elegantly as it apparently runs a hybrid mode where if a plugin needs Rosseta, it handles that in real-time and doesn't exclude it from being able to load it.
> 
> Outside of that and just getting back in the groove of LP (and making sure all my plugins are updated) the machine is pretty amazing and should be part of the studio for years to come.


If logic would have the visibility features of Studio One/ Nuendo i would stay there as it runs flawlessly on silicon.


----------



## dflood

I get the potential benefits of 64 vs 128 GB RAM, just wondering if there is any point in paying for all those additional cores in either the max or ultra configuration.


----------



## HCMarkus

It really depends on your use case. 

I typically don't stretch my RAM; I run a fair number of VIs, but keep those I am not using disabled. But I often deal with a large number of audio tracks and plugins, so multiple cores keep my CPU from stressing too hard.

So, I bought a Mac Studio Ultra with 64GB RAM. So far, it has been great, and I'm running a number of non-Native (Rosetta2-enabled) plugins within DP11.11 Native.


----------



## Stephen Baysted

Good to hear people's experiences. Thanks. Mine arrived on Tuesday (Ultra, 128gb RAM, 4TB). It'll be a while before I can get it fully up and running though as I'm mid-project at the moment.


----------



## HCMarkus

Stephen Baysted said:


> Good to hear people's experiences. Thanks. Mine arrived on Tuesday (Ultra, 128gb RAM, 4TB). It'll be a while before I can get it fully up and running though as I'm mid-project at the moment.


Congrats! 

Depending on what machine you are currently using, it might be faster to get the new Mac going. In my case, moving from a 5,1 12-core Mac Pro, the time and frustration I have saved working on an ongoing score have made up (many time over) for the hours I spent setting up my Mac Studio.


----------



## Stephen Baysted

HCMarkus said:


> Congrats!
> 
> Depending on what machine you are currently using, it might be faster to get the new Mac going. In my case, moving from a 5,1 12-core Mac Pro, the time and frustration I have saved working on an ongoing score have made up (many time over) for the hours I spent setting up my Mac Studio.


Alas, I'm recording the score end of July so can't spare the time or the risk!


----------



## nas

Stephen Baysted said:


> Alas, I'm recording the score end of July so can't spare the time or the risk!


honestly smart move.. I would never switch computers or update an OS or even upgrade my DAW mid project - it's just too risky, especially with deadlines! 

But please do get back and tell us how things are performing with your new machine and how far you can push it once you're up and running.

I'm thinking of possibly pulling the trigger on one with the same specs as yours.


----------



## HCMarkus

nas said:


> honestly smart move.. I would never switch computers or update an OS or even upgrade my DAW mid project - it's just too risky, especially with deadlines!


I always said the same thing, but after setting up the new machine (keeping the old one on standby), I tested a few cues and found no reason to go back. 

PS: The old Mac Pro is still on standby in the machine closet, just in case. Switch a couple of USB cables and it is ready to go.


----------



## wayne_rowley

FYI - Mac Studios now available on the Apple Refurb store.


----------



## el-bo

wayne_rowley said:


> FYI - Mac Studios now available on the Apple Refurb store.


This could work out well for me, as I’ve been having trouble getting hold of a Mini M1 refurb with 16gig (I’m guessing all the creatives are holding on for the M2 Mini). But perhaps this’ll persuade some of them to upgrade.

Thanks


----------



## rnb_2

wayne_rowley said:


> FYI - Mac Studios now available on the Apple Refurb store.


Interesting that, in the US at least, the refurb discount is only 10% instead of the customary 15%.


----------



## rnb_2

el-bo said:


> This could work out well for me, as I’ve been having trouble getting hold of a Mini M1 refurb with 16gig (I’m guessing all the creatives are holding on for the M2 Mini). But perhaps this’ll persuade some of them to upgrade.
> 
> Thanks


There are 16GB configs on the US refurb store, fwiw, so🤞that they show up for your location soon.


----------



## el-bo

rnb_2 said:


> There are 16GB configs on the US refurb store, fwiw, so🤞that they show up for your location soon.


Still nothing here, but that is encouraging. Thanks


----------



## method1

Just joined the club. Hopefully I can live with 32gb RAM - the plan is to offload to a vepro machine if really necessary. The limited amount of M1 native software is actually a nice way to start a new minimalist setup without 1000 distracting plugins 🔌


----------



## KyleRodrgz

About to pull the trigger on the Ultra 128GB  Should be here in the fall *sigh*

I read that some folks are having trouble getting their external SSD's to read on the Studio. Does anyone know which format I gotta use with my samples drives to make the transition smooth? Or is this a non-issue?

Using 4x 2TB Samsung QVO 870s in an OWC Thunderbay4 Mini

Thanks so much smart people!!!!


----------



## emilio_n

KyleRodrgz said:


> About to pull the trigger on the Ultra 128GB  Should be here in the fall *sigh*
> 
> I read that some folks are having trouble getting their external SSD's to read on the Studio. Does anyone know which format I gotta use with my samples drives to make the transition smooth? Or is this a non-issue?
> 
> Using 4x 2TB Samsung QVO 870s in an OWC Thunderbay4 Mini
> 
> Thanks so much smart people!!!!


Exactly the same configuration that you. I had problems with the Thunderbay mini usin Raid 0 with Softraid. I needed to format all the ssd and create a volume for each one.

Now works perfect.


----------



## el-bo

Almost through a fresh Mojave install, in preparation for using the Migration Assistant with Apple Silicon. Perhaps I should've checked if this is even a good idea, before-hand 

Having just looked at the info for installing Native Access 2, it mentions that for Apple Silicon a separate installer should be used. That got me nervous that using the MA is either going to leave me with issues or that at the very least I'll be left with loads of unnecessary legacy code.

Aside from certain apps that I'm not sure will even install on Monterey/M1, should I perhaps leave everything to a fresh install? Or am I gonna be fine with a Mojave migration and updating from there?

Thanks


----------



## Michael Antrum

KyleRodrgz said:


> About to pull the trigger on the Ultra 128GB  Should be here in the fall *sigh*
> 
> I read that some folks are having trouble getting their external SSD's to read on the Studio. Does anyone know which format I gotta use with my samples drives to make the transition smooth? Or is this a non-issue?
> 
> Using 4x 2TB Samsung QVO 870s in an OWC Thunderbay4 Mini
> 
> Thanks so much smart people!!!!


I have 4 SSD drives in my Thunderbay Mini and no issues so far. I am running APFS and each drive as an individual drive. (No Raid or anything like that).

I did a complete re-installation rather than a migration from my MacPro 2009, and used some SSD's in cheap enclosures to transfer the data. All worked beautifully....


----------



## Michael Antrum

el-bo said:


> Almost through a fresh Mojave install, in preparation for using the Migration Assistant with Apple Silicon. Perhaps I should've checked if this is even a good idea, before-hand
> 
> Having just looked at the info for installing Native Access 2, it mentions that for Apple Silicon a separate installer should be used. That got me nervous that using the MA is either going to leave me with issues or that at the very least I'll be left with loads of unnecessary legacy code.
> 
> Aside from certain apps that I'm not sure will even install on Monterey/M1, should I perhaps leave everything to a fresh install? Or am I gonna be fine with a Mojave migration and updating from there?
> 
> Thanks


What's the skinny with Native Access 2 ? I recently ran it and it upgraded to 1.14.1. Not a hint about v2.

Is V2 a beta or something, and what's the main differences ?


----------



## el-bo

Michael Antrum said:


> What's the skinny with Native Access 2 ? I recently ran it and it upgraded to 1.14.1. Not a hint about v2.
> 
> Is V2 a beta or something, and what's the main differences ?


Apart from scaring everyone into thinking that Spitfire Audio had finally dumped Kontakt and offering kontent filtering options, I’m not entirely sure.

*Edit*: There's this link:



https://support.native-instruments.com/hc/en-us/articles/4697682604049-Native-Access-2-FAQ


----------



## jneebz

Any I/O issues with TB2 BlackMagic Multidock?


----------



## HCMarkus

I did a fresh install, thinking that moving from one CPU architecture to another warranted it.

Wanting to keep my old machine still viable, I copied my sample libraries to an HD, then copied to the Mac Studio External NVMe SSD I'm using for VI Sample storage. Everything seemed to go well, although I occasionally get Kontakt asking me to find samples (always resolved very quickly with a Spotlight Search).

It is all working nicely, and I am in mid-score project, so I am on the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" track until this job is in the can.


----------



## KyleRodrgz

Michael Antrum said:


> I have 4 SSD drives in my Thunderbay Mini and no issues so far. I am running APFS and each drive as an individual drive. (No Raid or anything like that).
> 
> I did a complete re-installation rather than a migration from my MacPro 2009, and used some SSD's in cheap enclosures to transfer the data. All worked beautifully....


Thanks a ton man, this was super helpful! I'm really hoping to RAID the 4 2TB into 2 4TB, so if this doesn't work might be a bit of a bummer.

Are we thinking it's just easier to buy 2 4TB and call it a day?


----------



## HCMarkus

KyleRodrgz said:


> Thanks a ton man, this was super helpful! I'm really hoping to RAID the 4 2TB into 2 4TB, so if this doesn't work might be a bit of a bummer.
> 
> Are we thinking it's just easier to buy 2 4TB and call it a day?


There was a very nice couple of posts, I think earlier in this thread, concerning RAID's lack of suitability for the type of reads VI's require. Just something to consider as you build your new rig.


----------



## KyleRodrgz

You're right! Thanks so much, found it  Shoutout to @Virtuoso


----------



## Michael Antrum

KyleRodrgz said:


> Thanks a ton man, this was super helpful! I'm really hoping to RAID the 4 2TB into 2 4TB, so if this doesn't work might be a bit of a bummer.
> 
> Are we thinking it's just easier to buy 2 4TB and call it a day?


I must ask, what do wish to achieve by configuring the drives as a RAID ? I just didn't see any benefit to it.


----------



## jonnybutter

I am waiting patiently for my new MBP with 4TB hard drive - should be here in a couple weeks - and that is going to be plenty for me for a while. Operating system + all of my VIs and plugs add up to less than 2TB. Yes, I’m a piker compared to some of you (and TBF I remove stuff I never use). I have a Blackmagic dock and it’s working fine - will be handy for backups etc, but for production and post I don’t think I will need it. 

It is going to be a real mental adjustment going from ’desktop’, with Mac Vader, dock, etc, to this much more powerful little computer with everything on it. Will be esp great to just work outside of my little room sometimes. Get a tan from the sun rather than from all my blinking lights. 😁


----------



## MusiquedeReve

jonnybutter said:


> I am waiting patiently for my new MBP with 4TB hard drive - should be here in a couple weeks - and that is going to be plenty for me for a while. Operating system + all of my VIs and plugs add up to less than 2TB. Yes, I’m a piker compared to some of you (and TBF I remove stuff I never use). I have a Blackmagic dock and it’s working fine - will be handy for backups etc, but for production and post I don’t think I will need it.
> 
> It is going to be a real mental adjustment going from ’desktop’, with Mac Vader, dock, etc, to this much more powerful little computer with everything on it. Will be esp great to just work outside of my little room sometimes. Get a tan from the sun rather than from all my blinking lights. 😁



I had a Mac Pro 7,1 and a MacBook Air 13"

Sold them both, bought the MBP M1 Max with 4TB and never looked back

You are going to love it

Edit: I also have an external 32" monitor for when I want more screen real estate


----------



## jonnybutter

MorphineNoir said:


> I had a Mac Pro 7,1 and a MacBook Air 13"
> 
> Sold them both, bought the MBP M1 Max with 4TB and never looked back
> 
> You are going to love it
> 
> Edit: I also have an external 32" monitor for when I want more screen real estate


I am excited! I will be interested to see how much I can get done just on the 14” MBP screen. Probably a lot. But I also have a 32” screen available. I do a lot of mixing on Slate VSX these days, so I am thrilled to be able to get even mixing done NOT in my little cubicle, though not as conveniently as with my faders at hand.

I use a lot of modeled instruments with a breath controller, so very curious to see how many I can run and still get good response. My guess is a lot.

Will report back. Cheers


----------



## method1

A couple days in with the M1 Max base model / cubase report back.
Upgraded from an i7 Hackintosh 8700k / 64gb Ram

It's very nice to finally have a quiet machine again. the Hack wasn't too bad but sounds like Merzbow compared to the M1 studio.

We are experiencing rolling blackouts here, with the electricity going off 2-3 times a day for 2 hour stretches, so the Studio's low power consumption is extremely welcome, the power draw is about 1/3rd of my Hack so no more issues running off backup power.

I'm only using silicon native plugins, cubase is faster than it's ever been which is nice.
No crashes or anything yet & the stuff I'm currently working on hasn't run into the 32gb RAM ceiling.

Pro Tools 2020 miraculously works but some features are disabled (no QuickTime) and it starts up kinda slow, still does what I need for now.

Fresh install, although I copied over some system preferences to make Kontakt setup faster as well as the presets folder from library/audio. It's going to take some work / research to get the 5 x 8TB internal drives from the hack into an enclosure, haven't found a solution for that yet.

The only downside so far is Monterey - probably the glitchiest MacOS I've used to date, no showstoppers but loads of weird niggles including the mystery beachball slowing things down even when the system isn't under much strain, hopefully apple will fix the performance.


----------



## samphony

jonnybutter said:


> It is going to be a real mental adjustment going from ’desktop’, with Mac Vader, dock, etc, to this much more powerful little computer with everything on it. Will be esp great to just work outside of my little room sometimes. Get a tan from the sun rather than from all my blinking lights.


That was a relief for me too when I switched from a 12 core vader toilet to the 16” 8tb ssd. I can now get most of my work done at a beach hut in greece than my studio ☺️


----------



## jonnybutter

samphony said:


> That was a relief for me too when I switched from a 12 core vader toilet to the 16” 8tb ssd. I can now get most of my work done at a beach hut in greece than my studio ☺️


Not to mention also not missed will be using the Vader in the summer with its um heat problem. I have AC in the studio, but that bastard runs hot as hell, excuse my vernacular 🤓 It’s like running a space heater in the summer


----------



## Drumdude2112

So any monitor suggestions if i dont wanna go for broke at the moment and get the new mac display for 1600 ?


----------



## onnomusic

Drumdude2112 said:


> So any monitor suggestions if i dont wanna go for broke at the moment and get the new mac display for 1600 ?


I see a lot of people talking about the Samsung m8


----------



## HCMarkus

Drumdude2112 said:


> So any monitor suggestions if i dont wanna go for broke at the moment and get the new mac display for 1600 ?


I'm using the same 4k 40" TV and 24" 16:10 display I used with my Cheesegrater.


----------



## bdr

I've read over as much of this thread as I can so please excuse me if I'm covering old ground but the old noggin is kind of spinning.

I'm expecting my Mac Studio Ultra later this week. Could only afford 1TB internal drive so I'm going to have to deal with my existing SSD external drives for samples (which I'll be transferring from my MacPro 5,1). I've noticed the OWC Thunderbay 4 has been mentioned, I'm assuming that's a safe bet?









OWC ThunderBay 4 mini Four-Drive Thunderbolt 2 External Storage Enclosure with SoftRAID XT for 2.5-inch SATA Drives


OWC ThunderBay 4 mini RAID 5 Four-Bay External Thunderbolt 2 Storage Enclosure. Featuring SoftRAID XT. RAID-5 Pre-configured. Add your own drives! Thunderbolt cable included. Buy Now!




www.macfixit.com.au





A little unclear as to monitor options...I have 3 HDMI monitors. I guess I'll need an adaptor of some sort? Thunderbolt to HDMI? USB-C to HDMI? I'm not even sure if they're different.

Also I want to grab a couple of SSDs tomorrow on Prime Day. I don't know if I dreamt it but did I see there's issues with Samsung SSDs and the OWC Thunderbay?

This is stressing me out no end.

Thanks for any soothing replies...


----------



## bdr

also...if anyone can tell me what the difference between these are, if anything, I would be most appreciative.









OWC ThunderBay 4 mini Four-Bay External Drive Enclosure with Dual Thunderbolt 3 Ports - Macfixit Australia


OWC ThunderBay 4 mini Four-Bay Thunderbolt 3 External Drive Enclosure Big RAID System Performance in a Compact Design The ThunderBay 4 mini is a compact data storage enclosure that you can populate with new or existing 2.5-inch HDDs or SSDs. It’s big on performance and flexibility, yet...




www.macfixit.com.au














OWC ThunderBay 4 mini Four-Bay External Drive Enclosure with Dual Thunderbolt 3 Ports - with SoftRAID XT - Macfixit Australia


OWC ThunderBay 4 mini Professional Grade 4-Drive HDD and/or SSD Thunderbolt 3 Enclosure For Mac and Windows PC Featuring SoftRAID XT The Perfect Combination of Speed, Size, and Convenience for Permanent Access to Your Data Big RAID System Performance in a Compact Design The ThunderBay 4...




www.macfixit.com.au


----------



## khollister

bdr said:


> also...if anyone can tell me what the difference between these are, if anything, I would be most appreciative.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OWC ThunderBay 4 mini Four-Bay External Drive Enclosure with Dual Thunderbolt 3 Ports - Macfixit Australia
> 
> 
> OWC ThunderBay 4 mini Four-Bay Thunderbolt 3 External Drive Enclosure Big RAID System Performance in a Compact Design The ThunderBay 4 mini is a compact data storage enclosure that you can populate with new or existing 2.5-inch HDDs or SSDs. It’s big on performance and flexibility, yet...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.macfixit.com.au
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OWC ThunderBay 4 mini Four-Bay External Drive Enclosure with Dual Thunderbolt 3 Ports - with SoftRAID XT - Macfixit Australia
> 
> 
> OWC ThunderBay 4 mini Professional Grade 4-Drive HDD and/or SSD Thunderbolt 3 Enclosure For Mac and Windows PC Featuring SoftRAID XT The Perfect Combination of Speed, Size, and Convenience for Permanent Access to Your Data Big RAID System Performance in a Compact Design The ThunderBay 4...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.macfixit.com.au


I believe the second one includes a SoftRAID license (which in IMHO you don't need/want)


----------



## emilio_n

bdr said:


> I'm expecting my Mac Studio Ultra later this week. Could only afford 1TB internal drive so I'm going to have to deal with my existing SSD external drives for samples (which I'll be transferring from my MacPro 5,1). I've noticed the OWC Thunderbay 4 has been mentioned, I'm assuming that's a safe bet?


I am using the Thunderbay Mini with 4 SSD (two of them Samsung) without a problem. Take in mind that is not faster than a normal external USB SSD disk. The bottleneck is on the disks not in the connection.



bdr said:


> also...if anyone can tell me what the difference between these are, if anything, I would be most appreciative.


As @khollister said one come with the basic version of SoftRaid and the other with the Pro. 
My advice: If you will use it for samples, don't use RAID and create 4 separate volumes. Mac Studio doesn't like SoftRaid too much and you will not get any benefit of speed with files of the size of normal samples. In my experience, SoftRaid is a piece of rubbish software.


----------



## jbuhler

emilio_n said:


> I am using the Thunderbay Mini with 4 SSD (two of them Samsung) without a problem. Take in mind that is not faster than a normal external USB SSD disk. The bottleneck is on the disks not in the connection.
> 
> 
> As @khollister said one come with the basic version of SoftRaid and the other with the Pro.
> My advice: If you will use it for samples, don't use RAID and create 4 separate volumes. Mac Studio doesn't like SoftRaid too much and you will not get any benefit of speed with files of the size of normal samples. In my experience, SoftRaid is a piece of rubbish software.


My experience is that 4 disk hubs benefit from Thunderbolt compared to USB 3. It does seem with 4 SSDs that I can saturate the USB 3 port if most of the streaming of samples is coming across that one port. (I can sometimes do it even with thunderbolt 3, where I draw across 8 disks—two Thunderbays daisy chained.) 

For normal usage I’ve found the Thunderbay mini works well enough, though some report the fan in more recently shipped units is louder than the old one. You can either replace it with a quiet fan or disconnect the fan since the power supply on the mini is separate and SATA SSDs don’t get exceptionally hot.


----------



## Ben E

I've never done this before...

My Mac Studio has arrived (more than 4 weeks earlier than estimated!) and I’m ready to transfer everything over to it.

I know this is a total noob question but, am I going to run into any roadblocks? I've never had to transfer stuff to a new machine. So far, everything has been on my iMac from 2013.

To be clear, this is what I’m working with:

Logic Pro
Kontakt
Omnisphere
A handful of third party plugins: Spitfire’s player stuff, NI Replika, Valhalla Room, Sample Modeling etc. But not many. Like 7 maybe.
_All my sample libraries are on an external drive._

Can anyone point me to a step-by-step instruction how to get my new Mac Studio to be my new machine?

Or am I making a mountain out of a molehill? Is it pretty easy after all?


----------



## HCMarkus

It is not hard, but there a likely many steps unless you use Migration Assistant, which some have done successfully. In fact, I haven' heard of anyone NOT succeeding using that approach. That said, I didn't choose to do so as I migrated from my 5,1 Cheesegrater Mac Pro, what with the Mac Studio running a completely new CPU/GPU architecture and much more current version of macOS.

I did clean installs of everything except VI samples, which I transferred from my old sample SSDs (which remain useable in my still-functional old machine, just in case,) to a new Thunderbolt NVMe SSD via a spare HD using a USB drive dock. 

I only installed stuff that I use, leaving cruft behind. This is a significant advantage of starting from scratch. 

In my case, everything went very smoothly and the documentary score I'm working on even made the move. I wasn't planning to change computers mid-project, but the new machine was so much faster I just couldn't resist. Thankfully, I've not been cursed for this decision. I'm much more productive and have more than made up for time spent setting the new Mac up. DP11.11 has cooperated completely.

You might want to make sure you have all serial numbers/passwords you may need handy before you begin. But if this info is in the Cloud, it should be super simple. And be sure to set up your backups, whatever method you care to use. 

Good luck!


----------



## Ben E

HCMarkus said:


> It is not hard, but there a likely many steps unless you use Migration Assistant, which some have done successfully. In fact, I haven' heard of anyone NOT succeeding using that approach. That said, I didn't choose to do so as I migrated from my 5,1 Cheesegrater Mac Pro, what with the Mac Studio running a completely new CPU/GPU architecture and much more current version of macOS.
> 
> I did clean installs of everything except VI samples, which I transferred from my old sample SSDs (which remain useable in my still-functional old machine, just in case,) to a new Thunderbolt NVMe SSD via a spare HD using a USB drive dock.
> 
> I only installed stuff that I use, leaving cruft behind. This is a significant advantage of starting from scratch.
> 
> In my case, everything went very smoothly and the documentary score I'm working on even made the move. I wasn't planning to change computers mid-project, but the new machine was so much faster I just couldn't resist. Thankfully, I've not been cursed for this decision. I'm much more productive and have more than made up for time spent setting the new Mac up. DP11.11 has cooperated completely.
> 
> You might want to make sure you have all serial numbers/passwords you may need handy before you begin. But if this info is in the Cloud, it should be super simple. And be sure to set up your backups, whatever method you care to use.
> 
> Good luck!


Thank you for this!


----------



## bdr

HCMarkus said:


> It is not hard, but there a likely many steps unless you use Migration Assistant, which some have done successfully. In fact, I haven' heard of anyone NOT succeeding using that approach. That said, I didn't choose to do so as I migrated from my 5,1 Cheesegrater Mac Pro, what with the Mac Studio running a completely new CPU/GPU architecture and much more current version of macOS.
> 
> I did clean installs of everything except VI samples, which I transferred from my old sample SSDs (which remain useable in my still-functional old machine, just in case,) to a new Thunderbolt NVMe SSD via a spare HD using a USB drive dock.
> 
> I only installed stuff that I use, leaving cruft behind. This is a significant advantage of starting from scratch.
> 
> In my case, everything went very smoothly and the documentary score I'm working on even made the move. I wasn't planning to change computers mid-project, but the new machine was so much faster I just couldn't resist. Thankfully, I've not been cursed for this decision. I'm much more productive and have more than made up for time spent setting the new Mac up. DP11.11 has cooperated completely.
> 
> You might want to make sure you have all serial numbers/passwords you may need handy before you begin. But if this info is in the Cloud, it should be super simple. And be sure to set up your backups, whatever method you care to use.
> 
> Good luck!


Mine arrived today, very excited! I’m in a very similar situation to you..moving from a MacPro 5,1, using DP11, to the new Mac Studio. Can I ask, how many monitors you have and what adaptors you are using? Thank you.


----------



## onnomusic

Ben E said:


> I've never done this before...
> 
> My Mac Studio has arrived (more than 4 weeks earlier than estimated!) and I’m ready to transfer everything over to it.
> 
> I know this is a total noob question but, am I going to run into any roadblocks? I've never had to transfer stuff to a new machine. So far, everything has been on my iMac from 2013.
> 
> To be clear, this is what I’m working with:
> 
> Logic Pro
> Kontakt
> Omnisphere
> A handful of third party plugins: Spitfire’s player stuff, NI Replika, Valhalla Room, Sample Modeling etc. But not many. Like 7 maybe.
> _All my sample libraries are on an external drive._
> 
> Can anyone point me to a step-by-step instruction how to get my new Mac Studio to be my new machine?
> 
> Or am I making a mountain out of a molehill? Is it pretty easy after all?


This looks like an easy one to be honest. I think the main problem you'll run into when re-installing is your kontakt libraries not being found. Check out this article. but instead of deleting these files to delete the libraries, these are the files to manually copy to your new machine so that native access and kontakt have your libraries in place again, without having to re-download etc. 









How to remove a library from Native Access (Mac OS)


If you would like to remove a product from Native Access on your machine, you will need to do so by deleting the relevant plist file. Removing The Library 1) First, identify the library that you ...




spitfireaudio.zendesk.com


----------



## MusiquedeReve

Ben E said:


> I've never done this before...
> 
> My Mac Studio has arrived (more than 4 weeks earlier than estimated!) and I’m ready to transfer everything over to it.
> 
> I know this is a total noob question but, am I going to run into any roadblocks? I've never had to transfer stuff to a new machine. So far, everything has been on my iMac from 2013.
> 
> To be clear, this is what I’m working with:
> 
> Logic Pro
> Kontakt
> Omnisphere
> A handful of third party plugins: Spitfire’s player stuff, NI Replika, Valhalla Room, Sample Modeling etc. But not many. Like 7 maybe.
> _All my sample libraries are on an external drive._
> 
> Can anyone point me to a step-by-step instruction how to get my new Mac Studio to be my new machine?
> 
> Or am I making a mountain out of a molehill? Is it pretty easy after all?


When I got my new MBP M1 Max, I chose to NOT use migration assistant from my Mac Pro because I wanted to do a fresh install of everything

It was time-consuming, to say the least, especially giant libraries like HOOPUS, but, it worked smoothly, EXCEPT for Spitfire - tons of issues trying to download BBCSO Pro again - had to request resets of the library and talk with customer service - ended up taking days to resolve


----------



## Drumdude2112

I know this could be a tough and ‘subjective’ question but…i’m more then considering pulling the trigger on mac studio…i’m coming from a 2020 imac i9 (10 core) with 80 gigs of ram.
Is this new studio gonna run circles around it or is my computer new & fast enough in comparison to wait a while longer ?…Anyone go from a fairly recent machine to a mac studio and been blown away ? (or was it more like ‘meh, its faster but not THAT much faster lol , i could’ve waited) 
Worth the $ and hassle ?


----------



## Ben E

MorphineNoir said:


> When I got my new MBP M1 Max, I chose to NOT use migration assistant from my Mac Pro because I wanted to do a fresh install of everything
> 
> It was time-consuming, to say the least, especially giant libraries like HOOPUS, but, it worked smoothly, EXCEPT for Spitfire - tons of issues trying to download BBCSO Pro again - had to request resets of the library and talk with customer service - ended up taking days to resolve


But what if all my sample libraries -- including Spitfire -- are already on an external hard drive? Surely I won't need to re-download them again. All I'd need to do is plug the drive into the new computer. Am I right about this or am I missing something?


----------



## jonnybutter

Drumdude2112 said:


> I know this could be a tough and ‘subjective’ question but…i’m more then considering pulling the trigger on mac studio…i’m coming from a 2020 imac i9 (10 core) with 80 gigs of ram.
> Is this new studio gonna run circles around it or is my computer new & fast enough in comparison to wait a while longer ?…Anyone go from a fairly recent machine to a mac studio and been blown away ? (or was it more like ‘meh, its faster but not THAT much faster lol , i could’ve waited)
> Worth the $ and hassle ?


Probably depends on what you’re doing with it. That sounds like a great Mac you have. If you’re doing huge templates it might be worth it to get a new one if you have the $, but I’m sure the iMac will do a lot. My new MBP is due in about 10 days, but it’s replacing a 2013 Vader w/64gb of RAM. I *know* it’s going to be more capable. But really even the Vader, other than the heat generation, is still a pretty capable computer for producing in the box. Thrilled to be getting the new one though! Either way you will be good I reckon.


----------



## jonnybutter

The drives have to be formatted with APFS I believe. Other than that, yes, I don’t know why you’d want to download the sample content again. But it may be a deeper thing, like some sort of digital blessing you have to have?


EDIT: I was wrong. You can copy sample data from HFS+ formatted drives to an APFS drive just fine, assuming you can get the former to mount, which was not so easy until recently. I originally posted this because I was having the same trouble others were dealing with external HFS+ drives in Monterey, but Apple seems to have fixed this. Conversion still doesn’t work, but you don’t really have to convert now.


----------



## rnb_2

Ben E said:


> But what if all my sample libraries -- including Spitfire -- are already on an external hard drive? Surely I won't need to re-download them again. All I'd need to do is plug the drive into the new computer. Am I right about this or am I missing something?


The Spitfire app will have to be pointed at the sample location after install, and will almost certainly have to do a "repair" that will take some time. This will be different for different developers, of course - some will just allow you to point the sample player at the sample drive and you're done. The overarching idea, though, is the same - if you have your samples on existing drives that you want to re-use, you can start from scratch with installing all of your software (including the various plugins you need) without re-downloading all of the sample data again. This way, you get a "clean" new system without any unneeded historical data.


----------



## method1

Ben E said:


> But what if all my sample libraries -- including Spitfire -- are already on an external hard drive? Surely I won't need to re-download them again. All I'd need to do is plug the drive into the new computer. Am I right about this or am I missing something?


In the case of spitfire, you don't have to re-download the libraries, but you will need to do a "repair" in order to authorize on the new system, as spitfire doesn't support or recommend using the same sample pool on 2 machines. Also if you are using silicon native mode, you'll need to get the beta version of some spitfire plugins.

In the case of Kontakt, if you move certain settings, preference and documents folders across from the old machine, Kontakt will find everything just as you had it set up on the previous system.

For spectrasonics, you can copy the STEAM & SAGE folders to the new system, or point a new installation to those folders on an external drive to avoid re-downloading.


----------



## Llama Butter

So I'm debating between a MBP and a studio for a upcoming project, apple's website says in store pickup for the studio is three months out. Has that been people's actual experience with delivery time or have they ended up arriving sooner than that?


----------



## cuttime

Llama Butter said:


> So I'm debating between a MBP and a studio for a upcoming project, apple's website says in store pickup for the studio is three months out. Has that been people's actual experience with delivery time or have they ended up arriving sooner than that?


Monday l ordered a Studio from B&H Photo and was told there would be an eight week wait. l thought “well that's next fall. I guess it’s good I'm on a waiting list”. It shipped Tuesday and arrived today. YMMV, but I’ve heard other anecdotes that B&H was able to come through when Apple couldn’t. Also you can save a good chunk if you use their credit card. This isn’t an ad, but I have been a satisfied customer with them for many years.


----------



## tmhuud

Geeez. An 8 week wait. That's. Well. Frustrating. I remember years ago when you can order things from APPLE and get them next day. Things sure have changed. 🤷‍♂️


----------



## rnb_2

cuttime said:


> Monday l ordered a Studio from B&H Photo and was told there would be an eight week wait. l thought “well that's next fall. I guess it’s good I'm on a waiting list”. It shipped Tuesday and arrived today. YMMV, but I’ve heard other anecdotes that B&H was able to come through when Apple couldn’t. Also you can save a good chunk if you use their credit card. This isn’t an ad, but I have been a satisfied customer with them for many years.


Yeah, I've been working with a friend and fellow photographer, gradually working him up to upgrading from the 2014 5k iMac I sold to him in early 2017. He's settled on a Mac Studio, probably 64GB/2TB Max, and we discovered (to our shock) that, while Apple was showing late July/early August delivery, B&H actually had that config in stock. If you use their credit card, you can choose either 12-month no interest financing, or effectively sales tax-free (you pay the tax, but they refund you the same amount off the retail price of the item). On a big purchase, you can save a few hundred dollars, but you'll need to pay it off quickly to avoid paying the not-great interest rate.

If you're fairly close to NYC (really, their warehouse in New Jersey), you can also get things next day for free if you order early enough in the day.



tmhuud said:


> Geeez. An 8 week wait. That's. Well. Frustrating. I remember years ago when you can order things from APPLE and get them next day. Things sure have changed. 🤷‍♂️


There are still things that you can get next day, but they're very limited - all down to supply chain issues. Even Apple isn't immune from them these days. For what it's worth, many people seem to be getting their Mac Studios a bit earlier than anticipated.


----------



## tmhuud

rnb_2 said:


> There are still things that you can get next day, but they're very limited - all down to supply chain issues. Even Apple isn't immune from them these days. For what it's worth, many people seem to be getting their Mac Studios a bit earlier than anticipated.


Yeah, I have Melrose Mac just down the street, good friend (owner) works there. I guess when I switch if I cant wait for SNAPPLE I'll see her. I just dont know how flexible she's going to be as far as configuring the machine and I know THAT"s going to too take time. Glad you got your early. I'll bet it kicks A$$. But I've ordered lots of chords and peripherals from SNAPPLE and waited awhile. Thinking about a new iPadPro but worried about how long it will take and if my MetaSystem will hold its commands...


----------



## jonnybutter

tmhuud said:


> Geeez. An 8 week wait. That's. Well. Frustrating. I remember years ago when you can order things from APPLE and get them next day. Things sure have changed. 🤷‍♂️


Apple said 8 weeks for my MBP when I ordered it, but now that I have a date-certain, it will have been 6 weeks. A long wait, but a very 1st world problem at the moment. I read that the Biden Admin in the US were working on a scheme to send people gift cards to help with gas prices, but there was a shortage of that kind of chip as well, so they couldn’t do it. Interesting times 😱


----------



## Llama Butter

cuttime said:


> Monday l ordered a Studio from B&H Photo and was told there would be an eight week wait. l thought “well that's next fall. I guess it’s good I'm on a waiting list”. It shipped Tuesday and arrived today. YMMV, but I’ve heard other anecdotes that B&H was able to come through when Apple couldn’t. Also you can save a good chunk if you use their credit card. This isn’t an ad, but I have been a satisfied customer with them for many years.


Thanks for the helpful tip! After doing a bit more research I'm settling on a 14" m1max mbp, 64gb 4tb.

Saw another post here on vi that m1max seems to be able to handle multiple slate and ash landforms and that's my most taxing library atm. Plus I was thinking I can spend the difference I was planning on spending on the studio on more libraries and plugins. Then in the future if I need to I can trade up.


----------



## HCMarkus

bdr said:


> Mine arrived today, very excited! I’m in a very similar situation to you..moving from a MacPro 5,1, using DP11, to the new Mac Studio. Can I ask, how many monitors you have and what adaptors you are using? Thank you.


I am running two displays:

40" 4k Samsung TV connected via HDMI to the Mac Studio HDMI port.

An older 24" Dell 16:10 Monitor connected via Display Port to a Mac Studio Thunderbolt/USB C port via this:


----------



## WandaS

I ordered my Ultra on April 10th it came on July 5th. I Migrated everything over and it booted right up.
I just had way to many plugins to start over.
Most of my plugins worked fine ( No Rosetta ). Even my Lexicon verbs from 2014 work perfect. There are some caveats but you learn to work around most.
The SD card slot can be used for easy backups and the cards are reasonably priced.
*"Brick by brick, my fellow citizens, brick by brick."*


----------



## NuNativs

jonnybutter said:


> Will be esp great to just work outside of my little room sometimes. Get a tan from the sun rather than from all my blinking lights. 😁


The tan you get from trippy studio lighting is completely OVERATED!


----------



## mercury

emilio_n said:


> Exactly the same configuration that you. I had problems with the Thunderbay mini usin Raid 0 with Softraid. I needed to format all the ssd and create a volume for each one.
> 
> Now works perfect.


Just curious to know…
Is your configuration in the OWC Thunderbay4 Mini, purely samples spread out over four SSDs or a mix samples, projects, backup?

How do you find the QVO 870s? I was thinking about the EVOs or the QVOs.

What monitor are you using with your Mac Studio? As I’ve got my Mac Studio, need to get a monitor, read so much about Mac scaling and ppi.


----------



## mercury

Drumdude2112 said:


> So any monitor suggestions if i dont wanna go for broke at the moment and get the new mac display for 1600 ?


Studio Display looks stunning, had a go on one the other day, was amazed.


----------



## mercury

emilio_n said:


> I am using the Thunderbay Mini with 4 SSD (two of them Samsung) without a problem. Take in mind that is not faster than a normal external USB SSD disk. The bottleneck is on the disks not in the connection.
> 
> 
> As @khollister said one come with the basic version of SoftRaid and the other with the Pro.
> My advice: If you will use it for samples, don't use RAID and create 4 separate volumes. Mac Studio doesn't like SoftRaid too much and you will not get any benefit of speed with files of the size of normal samples. In my experience, SoftRaid is a piece of rubbish software.


How do you find the bottle neck, can it be bad at times?
Glad you said that about SoftRaid, always intended to set the SSDs as four independent volumes (when I get it).


----------



## Michael Antrum

mercury said:


> Just curious to know…
> Is your configuration in the OWC Thunderbay4 Mini, purely samples spread out over four SSDs or a mix samples, projects, backup?
> 
> How do you find the QVO 870s? I was thinking about the EVOs or the QVOs.
> 
> What monitor are you using with your Mac Studio? As I’ve got my Mac Studio, need to get a monitor, read so much about Mac scaling and ppi.


I have a Thunderbay connected to my Studio. Drives are all individually formatted to show as four separate drives and are samples only. I've had no problems at all.

I also have two 4TB Samsung QVO drives, and they have also behaved perfectly, though they do slow down when filling them up with samples. But no problems in use. When reading from them, as is the case with samples, I cannot tell the difference with other higher spec drives.

I have a Samsung 32" 4k Curved Monitor that cost me about £ 260 from amazon during a promotion. For the money they are excellent. I wouldn't want to go smaller than a 32" when using a single screen. The Apple screen is gorgeous, but too small and expensive.


----------



## mercury

Michael Antrum said:


> I have a Thunderbay connected to my Studio. Drives are all individually formatted to show as four separate drives and are samples only. I've had no problems at all.
> 
> I also have two 4TB Samsung QVO drives, and they have also behaved perfectly, though they do slow down when filling them up with samples. But no problems in use. When reading from them, as is the case with samples, I cannot tell the difference with other higher spec drives.
> 
> I have a Samsung 32" 4k Curved Monitor that cost me about £ 260 from amazon during a promotion. For the money they are excellent. I wouldn't want to go smaller than a 32" when using a single screen. The Apple screen is gorgeous, but too small and expensive.


Are the drives inside the Thunder Bay Mini 4 all QVOs? Did you format them to APFS?

How are the other two 4TB Samsung QVO drives connected, in the Thunder Bay as well?

If I got a Thunder Bay Mini 4, I’d have something like 
Sample library 
Sample library 
System back up 
Projects 

Wow that was a great deal with the Samsung, which model is it? What scaling do you use, if any?

Yes the screen was amazing and coming from a 10 year old Dell , 1080p, 23 inch monitor looked massive! But I can see where you’re coming from saying it’s too small very expensive.


----------



## Michael Antrum

There's a mix of drives in the Thunderbay, 2 x Samsung 4TB QVO's, but also Sandisk 3D and WD Blue, and before I bought the WD Blue, a Crucial MX500. All formatted APFS.

The Samsung Screen was a U32R592, which I don't think you can get anymore, but in the recent Amazon Prime Day they have what looks like the identical monitor for £ 268.00. It's now back at £ 349.00 though...



It's not an EIZO, but for the money I've been delighted with it.
​


----------



## method1

Has anyone tried one of these?



Thunderbolt is overkill (I think) since I'll only be using 3.5" HDDs, the Thunderbay does look nice but I'll wait for OWC to come out with some TB4 stuff before spending that amount, the TB4 ministack looks pretty cool: https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/owc-ministack-stx


----------



## rnb_2

method1 said:


> Has anyone tried one of these?
> 
> 
> 
> Thunderbolt is overkill (I think) since I'll only be using 3.5" HDDs, the Thunderbay does look nice but I'll wait for OWC to come out with some TB4 stuff before spending that amount, the TB4 ministack looks pretty cool: https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/owc-ministack-stx



Note that TB4 doesn't feature any major performance differences from TB3 on the storage end - it's mostly concerned with tightening up features on the host (like adding multiple TB ports on a hub, increasing power delivery, increasing screen support, etc). That's why you'll see TB4 on something like the STX, since it has multiple Thunderbolt ports on the back.

Regarding the MiniStack STX: I'm not convinced that product makes sense for many users, as the implementation really hobbles the NVMe drive (roughly ½ the speed of other Thunderbolt NVMe enclosures), which seems like a high price to pay to get a 3.5" HDD bay. It would be slightly more expensive, but I'd go with a Caldigit Element Hub paired with an OWC Envoy Express and your choice of 3.5" HDD enclosures. That would give you four extra USB-A ports (one of which would serve the HDD) and faster performance from the NVMe drive.


----------



## method1

rnb_2 said:


> Note that TB4 doesn't feature any major performance differences from TB3 on the storage end - it's mostly concerned with tightening up features on the host (like adding multiple TB ports on a hub, increasing power delivery, increasing screen support, etc). That's why you'll see TB4 on something like the STX, since it has multiple Thunderbolt ports on the back.
> 
> Regarding the MiniStack STX: I'm not convinced that product makes sense for many users, as the implementation really hobbles the NVMe drive (roughly ½ the speed of other Thunderbolt NVMe enclosures), which seems like a high price to pay to get a 3.5" HDD bay. It would be slightly more expensive, but I'd go with a Caldigit Element Hub paired with an OWC Envoy Express and your choice of 3.5" HDD enclosures. That would give you four extra USB-A ports (one of which would serve the HDD) and faster performance from the NVMe drive.


Thanks, I didn't realize the STX had slower NVME performance, checking again I see they state 770MB/s, I'll scratch that one off my list for now.

I just picked up the Caldigit hub, thanks for the recommendation, should go well with the Sabrent dual-NVME tb3 enclosure I ordered prior.


----------



## Emanuel Fróes

cet34f said:


> I'm sorry, but to me, this chart only highlights what a waste it is to buy Ultra to get 128 GB Ram, and since we do need 128 GB Ram, both Mac Studio models are not musician-friendly.


Try to give an online lesson of 1 hour teaching midi orchestration with a full orchestral template, streaming it online and recording to save for later as well. Ah, and you have probably two displays and a some ports busy at this point. If it works, your computer is magical.


----------



## Emanuel Fróes

BassClef said:


> Agreed... I ordered Studio Ultra with 128GB for future proofing. I imagine more and more (VI and plugin) developers will take full advantage of multi cores over the next few years.


absolutely! meanwhile haters are blind to the obveities


----------



## Emanuel Fróes

KEM said:


> 128gb of ram is overkill in my opinion, just use VEP and purge tracks and you can even get away with 32gb. Only reason I could ever see anyone needing 128gb is if they have like 2k tracks in their template and nothings purged, but that just doesn’t make any sense to me either


hmmm … how would you purge all EW samples?


----------



## Emanuel Fróes

NoamL said:


> Well I'm right now looking for an all in one, VEP+Logic+ProTools machine, with 64GB of memory (although 96 or 128 might be nice for futureproofing...)
> 
> I was looking at the *16" Macbook Pro* with *M1 Max* (10 CPU cores, 24 GPU), *64GB* RAM and *2TB *SSD. That was going to total *$4,100.*
> 
> With this new Mac Studio, I can get the exact same hardware specs for *$3,000. *
> 
> Any reason I shouldn't nab that deal? It's basically $1,100 off and go buy a cheaper monitor + keyboard, right? Anything else I should know?
> 
> The next step up in price would be to get the M1 Ultra + 128GB RAM. That's truly a monster computer, more powerful than most _existing_ composer desktops I'd bet. It's also $5,000 though haha, up to $6k if you want more hard drive space too.


here we are!


----------



## Emanuel Fróes

shropshirelad said:


> Straight $ to £ pricing is a bit disappointing, making this very expensive here in the UK. Regardless, I'm going to get the Mac Studio with Max/64gb/1TB but will be looking around for more affordable monitors - recommendations most welcome!


i bought samsung smart monitor for 250 euros , 32” . Best big display for the price i found


----------



## Emanuel Fróes

Nimrod7 said:


> dear lord,
> 
> The plan is to sell the MacBook 16, 10Gb Thunderbolt Adapter, Element Hub that I was using as a desktop replacement. I am still trying to digest what I did, but thinking long term, longevity around 5 years / 60 = 131/month, which is not bad at all. That's how much I am paying for a software license monthly (Cinema 4D).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> q
> If anyone would like to keep mobile, and interested for a 16 Inch MacBook Pro MAX, 64Gb Ram, 2TB SSD with 3 years apple care and lives within EU, let me know.


----------



## Emanuel Fróes

Nimrod7 said:


> dear lord,
> 
> The plan is to sell the MacBook 16, 10Gb Thunderbolt Adapter, Element Hub that I was using as a desktop replacement. I am still trying to digest what I did, but thinking long term, longevity around 5 years / 60 = 131/month, which is not bad at all. That's how much I am paying for a software license monthly (Cinema 4D).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If anyone would like to keep mobile, and interested for a 16 Inch MacBook Pro MAX, 64Gb Ram, 2TB SSD with 3 years apple care and lives within EU, let me know.


1, 800 Euros. more than in Austria, crazy


----------



## Emanuel Fróes

dcoscina said:


> Composers who use big templates (loading up all sounds every time) benefit from this I guess. I have all of my channels turned off when I load a template then activate whichever tracks/instruments I need at the time. Seems to work for me but I don't have templates over 100 tracks.. I'm more of a KS guy, not a load 1 articulation per channel dude.


even thou you habe to load all articulation patches, like in Opus. 


Death is everywhere using it


----------



## Emanuel Fróes

method1 said:


> Has anyone tried one of these?
> 
> 
> 
> Thunderbolt is overkill (I think) since I'll only be using 3.5" HDDs, the Thunderbay does look nice but I'll wait for OWC to come out with some TB4 stuff before spending that amount, the TB4 ministack looks pretty cool: https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/owc-ministack-stx



there is a vlog of a guy whose 2 backups failed, one with this lol hence the rule: internal, external, cloud and paradise (prayer)


----------



## Emanuel Fróes

Ben E said:


> But what if all my sample libraries -- including Spitfire -- are already on an external hard drive? Surely I won't need to re-download them again. All I'd need to do is plug the drive into the new computer. Am I right about this or am I missing something?


i think you will just have to check the license, for which computer the license is active. But the product installer you reinstall in the new computer


----------



## dcoscina

Emanuel Fróes said:


> even thou you habe to load all articulation patches, like in Opus.
> 
> 
> Death is everywhere using it


I don’t use Opus


----------



## holywilly

One question to Mac Studio Ultra users:

Does Blackmagic Multidock work nicely with Mac Studio Ultra via Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 adaptor?


----------



## emilio_n

holywilly said:


> One question to Mac Studio Ultra users:
> 
> Does Blackmagic Multidock work nicely with Mac Studio Ultra via Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 adaptor?


Should be. I remember I read here about some users with that configuration. I can't find the post, sorry :-(


----------



## method1

Emanuel Fróes said:


> there is a vlog of a guy whose 2 backups failed, one with this lol hence the rule: internal, external, cloud and paradise (prayer)


I ended up getting the Sabrent, at first it was connected to a front USB-C port on my studio max, and the drives kept ejecting randomly, I thought the unit was defective but after connecting it via a thunderbolt dock I've had no issues, I tested some other drive/dock combos on the front ports and had the same problem. It seems the front ports on the max aren't really suited to connecting drives, especially with lots of other peripherals connected.

For anyone who might be considering the unit, it is quite loud, so I put it in another room & have it connected via a 10ft USB-C cable. Getting full speed on the 4 x WD Black HDDs in the dock.


----------



## Electric Moss

Can anyone verify if it's just drives that randomly eject on the front USB-C ports on the Max, or is it other hardware as well? ie; USB interfaces, midi controllers, etc? 

My Mac Pro trashcan has been acting a little wonky over the past couple of weeks--I honestly won't have more than a day or two off while in production for the foreseeable future, so I'm almost wondering if I should just snag an iMac Pro or some other Intel unit to carry me through another year when everything might be a little more stable.


----------



## Michael Antrum

My Studio Max has been well behaved - no issues at all.


----------



## naturalahvi

I have two USB SSD drives connected front ports all the time without any problems.


----------



## Tronam

Never experienced a disconnected drive on my Mac Studio, even through weeks of sleeping and waking. The same can’t be said for my MOTU M2 audio interface though which will always lose its connection when the computer goes to sleep forcing me to power cycle the M2 every time. It happened on my last Mac though too, so it isn’t a new thing, just annoying. My previous Steinberg/Yamaha interface never had that problem.


----------



## carlc

Mac Studio first impressions video from Guy Michelmore; makes me think I should probably hang on to my Intel-based Mac for at least another year.


----------



## BassClef

carlc said:


> Mac Studio first impressions video from Guy Michelmore; makes me think I should probably hang on to my Intel-based Mac for at least another year.



I'm just a hobbyist using Logic, and have had almost no problems with my Mac Studio Ultra since I got it back in April. Likely the biggest difference between Guy and myself (not counting his great skills and my amateurish compositions) would be the complexity of his hardware/software setup, and that he has massively more plugins than me.


----------



## Tronam

carlc said:


> Mac Studio first impressions video from Guy Michelmore; makes me think I should probably hang on to my Intel-based Mac for at least another year.



Here's what I would do. Go to https://asaudio.tech/ (then click on the Developers tab at the top) and check all of your plugins/DAWs for Apple Silicon compatibility. It's the best online resource for this and updated on an almost daily basis with version numbers. If your most important, heavily used plugins are native, then you should be fine. The only DAWs left to be ported are Reason and Protools, but there are a couple of caveats to consider for hosts like Ableton Live 11 and Cubase 12. Both DAWs are native, but when running that way they cannot open Intel x86 VST plugins. The workaround is running the hosts themselves under Rosetta which works very well, but if you have an aversion to this then wait until all of the developers you care about have released native VST3 updates.


----------



## cuttime

Tronam said:


> Here's what I would do. Go to https://asaudio.tech/ (then click on the Developers tab at the top) and check all of your plugins/DAWs for Apple Silicon compatibility. It's the best online resource for this and updated on an almost daily basis with version numbers. If your most important, heavily used plugins are native, then you should be fine. The only DAWs left to be ported are Reason and Protools, but there are a couple of caveats to consider for hosts like Ableton Live 11 and Cubase 12. Both DAWs are native, but when running that way they cannot open Intel x86 VST plugins. The workaround is running the hosts themselves under Rosetta which works very well, but if you have an aversion to this then wait until all of the developers you care about have released native VST3 updates.


This has been posted before, but still needs repeating. Get PlugInfo and save yourself a lot of hurt:









‎PlugInfo


‎Ideal for audio professionals. Instantly reveals details about installed audio plug-ins. Links to publisher web sites and offers easy Finder access for maintenance. Apple's introduction of Apple Silicon delivers compelling performance in an incredibly efficient package for Mac users. It has...



apps.apple.com


----------



## carlc

cuttime said:


> This has been posted before, but still needs repeating. Get PlugInfo and save yourself a lot of hurt:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ‎PlugInfo
> 
> 
> ‎Ideal for audio professionals. Instantly reveals details about installed audio plug-ins. Links to publisher web sites and offers easy Finder access for maintenance. Apple's introduction of Apple Silicon delivers compelling performance in an incredibly efficient package for Mac users. It has...
> 
> 
> 
> apps.apple.com


Thanks, PlugInfo looks interesting, especially for $2.99.

There is a similar product I was considering from SWAT Audio called PlugHub (links below). This one seems to have capabilities to directly manage the files as well. Eventually, I will dedicate a weekend to exploring these. 









The utility app for managing & organizing your vst, au, and aax plugins.


Plughub lets you organize, tag, take notes, backup, uninstall and more!




plughub.app


----------



## Eulenauge66

No issues here at all with a similar complex setup. Most reliable system I ever owned.


----------



## Vik

carlc said:


> Mac Studio first impressions video from Guy Michelmore; makes me think I should probably hang on to my Intel-based Mac for at least another year.


Waiting a year may be a good idea unless you need a new computer right now – especially since Apple hasn't yet finished the two year transition process they talked about when the announced/released the first ARM Macs. Having said that – some of the issues he mentioned in that video are similar to problems one also would get when moving from one Intel Mac to another. And: one _can_ run Rosetta plugins in a Apple Silicon native DAW along with native plug-ins in the same session. And I agree that it certainly would be better if Apple didn't crash in the AU validation process - but I'm kind of surprised that he was surprised by these things – he should have spent more time on this forum before he bought it!


----------



## carlc

Vik said:


> Waiting a year may be a good idea unless you need a new computer right now – especially since Apple hasn't yet finished the two year transition process they talked about when the announced/released the first ARM Macs.


I just maxed out the RAM on my 2018 Mac Mini to 64GB. I should be all set for a while. My main gripe is that it struggles with video/graphics processing. On the positive side, I was able to buy 3rd party RAM and upgrade it myself, unlike newer Macs. Eventually, I will get a Mac Studio I'm sure. Maybe if I stop buying sample libraries for a year that will help pay for it.



Vik said:


> Having said that – some of the issues he mentioned in that video are similar to problems one also would get when moving from one Intel Mac to another. And: one _can_ run Rosetta plugins in a Apple Silicon native DAW along with native plug-ins in the same session. And I agree that it certainly would be better if Apple didn't crash in the AU validation process - but I'm kind of surprised that he was surprised by these things – he should have spent more time on this forum before he bought it!


Totally agree, and I'm not surprised that you were surprised that he was surprised.


----------



## HCMarkus

Standard Advice: Buy a new computer when you need a new computer. 

If you don't need one, don't buy one. If you _need_ one, buy it, don't wait.


----------



## Pier

Vik said:


> especially since Apple hasn't yet finished the two year transition process they talked about when the announced/released the first ARM Macs


Hey that's true. This November will be two years since the first M1 devices were released in November 2020.

AFAIK the only Intel device left is the tower Mac Pro. Who knows, maybe Apple will announce an ARM Mac Pro in the next October event.


----------



## Soundbed

I had an issue with drives ejecting very early on, but not recently. However I changed two variables. 

1. I bought a Sabrent Thunderbolt 2 drive enclosure. https://www.thunderbolttechnology.net/product/ec-t3dn

2. Perhaps it was addressed in the recent OS update?


I still use my 2018 Intel PowerBook for my most important projects. My Studio Max has settled into a more predictable configuration, and I’ve started to trust it more and more, as little updates have come around to plug-ins etc. I’d probably use it more if I decide to buy the new version of ProTools for it. I still enjoy ProTools as a DAW.


----------



## cuttime

carlc said:


> Thanks, PlugInfo looks interesting, especially for $2.99.
> 
> There is a similar product I was considering from SWAT Audio called PlugHub (links below). This one seems to have capabilities to directly manage the files as well. Eventually, I will dedicate a weekend to exploring these.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The utility app for managing & organizing your vst, au, and aax plugins.
> 
> 
> Plughub lets you organize, tag, take notes, backup, uninstall and more!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> plughub.app



The brilliance of PlugInfo is that it sorts by processor type. PlugHub does not seem to do that, AFAICT.


----------



## machinesworking

carlc said:


> Mac Studio first impressions video from Guy Michelmore; makes me think I should probably hang on to my Intel-based Mac for at least another year.



One thing to keep in mind here is Guy uses Cubase, which as far as I know does not support Audio Units, so you're stuck using Cubase in Rosetta to get the VEP plug in to work. Since he's an orchestral guy, he's of course doing that and taking the hit CPU wise for doing that. I don't use Cubase and I can run native plug ins alongside AU Rosetta ones, make life a bit better on Apple Silicon. In other words if you're on Cubase I would wait, but Logic, DP, Live etc. all do AU making the transition a lot less painful..


----------



## Pier

machinesworking said:


> One thing to keep in mind here is Guy uses Cubase


He's complaining about other stuff though. Anything but performance.

Stuff like not being able to format a 8TB drive, AU plugin cache, etc.


----------



## machinesworking

Soundbed said:


> I had an issue with drives ejecting very early on, but not recently. However I changed two variables.
> 
> 1. I bought a Sabrent Thunderbolt 2 drive enclosure. https://www.thunderbolttechnology.net/product/ec-t3dn
> 
> 2. Perhaps it was addressed in the recent OS update?
> 
> 
> I still use my 2018 Intel PowerBook for my most important projects. My Studio Max has settled into a more predictable configuration, and I’ve started to trust it more and more, as little updates have come around to plug-ins etc. I’d probably use it more if I decide to buy the new version of ProTools for it. I still enjoy ProTools as a DAW.


 Self powered USB enclosures on Mac OS have long been hit or miss as to whether they're prone to dismounting randomly. Thunderbolt is rock solid and apparently ethernet, but I have three different brands of USB 3 and C enclosures and it's only the latest version of Monterey that has all three stable. Right now things are good, but IMO if you can, always opt for enclosures with their own power source. Said by someone with three enclosures that are not... to be fair it's the USBC M.2 enclosure that recently was acting up, and 12.6 fixed that.


----------



## machinesworking

Pier said:


> He's complaining about other stuff though. Anything but performance.
> 
> Stuff like not being able to format a 8TB drive, AU plugin cache, etc.


Hmm? OK I'll watch it, but right away I'm perplexed why a person who uses Cubase, that cannot use the AU version of the VEP plug in, is reviewing a machine he can't use to it's full potential? Said as a fan of some of his video work. FWIW I formatted a 4TB drive with no issues, I do not remember which computer I used to format the 16TB HD Seagate here.


----------



## machinesworking

OK right off the bat Guy is dead wrong. He's talking about Logic Pro, saying that only native plug ins will run in the native version of Logic, that you have to run Logic in Rosetta to use non native AU plug ins, that's not true. Here with Live and DP it's absolutely disproven that you cannot run Rosetta AU plug ins inside native DAWs on Mac OS. I see and use Intel only AU plug ins and native VST and VST 3 plug ins alongside each other every day.

This is the downside of being an "influencer" or listening to one, they're human with human frailties in terms of unintentional bias. Guy switched from DP on Mac to Cubase on PC for the most part, so he for whatever reason did not keep up with what was happening on Apple Silicon with AU and the wrapper Apple developed that any DAW can use.


----------



## Tronam

To be fair, many of these finer details haven't been as well communicated as they could've been by either Apple or the audio developers in a consistent way. Terminology often gets used interchangeably and confused. One common complaint by the admin of http://asaudio.tech is inconsistent use of terms like "M1 compatible" which implies native support, but just means it'll work under Rosetta, so he'll run the binaries through checkers to make sure they're actually native. Not all of the larger YouTube music channels are particularly tech savvy and the need to pump out regular content at a breakneck pace often leads to sloppy, poorly researched videos.


----------



## machinesworking

Tronam said:


> To be fair, many of these finer details haven't been as well communicated as they could've been by either Apple or the audio developers in a consistent way. Terminology often gets used interchangeably and confused. One common complaint by the admin of http://asaudio.tech is inconsistent use of terms like "M1 compatible" which implies native support, but just means it'll work under Rosetta, so he'll run the binaries through checkers to make sure they're actually native. Not all of the larger YouTube music channels are particularly tech savvy and the need to pump out regular content at a breakneck pace often leads to sloppy, poorly researched videos.


 Yeah, and Guy has a distinct disadvantage as he's concentrated on the two single plug in format DAWs, Cubase and Logic. I wouldn't even have had to research that Rosetta AU plug ins will run in any DAW that hosts AU while the DAW is native Apple Silicon, it's clear as day when the OB-Xtreme AU runs inside both DP and Live, alongside Native plug ins in VST and VST 3 formats.


----------



## jmauz

OK it's the end of the year and I'm considering getting one of these things. Here's my setup:

Focusrite RedNet Thunderbolt 2 Interface
3 ethernet connections to Dante Network, VE Pro Network, and Internet
3 monitors
Cubase 12
VE Pro

The only problem I see in terms of connectivity is the 3 ethernet ports. Not sure how to solve that other than getting a PCI chassis. I'll also need a SSD chassis. Ugh.


----------



## Grégory Betton

jmauz said:


> OK it's the end of the year and I'm considering getting one of these things. Here's my setup:
> 
> Focusrite RedNet Thunderbolt 2 Interface
> 3 ethernet connections to Dante Network, VE Pro Network, and Internet
> 3 monitors
> Cubase 12
> VE Pro
> 
> The only problem I see in terms of connectivity is the 3 ethernet ports. Not sure how to solve that other than getting a PCI chassis. I'll also need a SSD chassis. Ugh.


Thunderbolt to Ethernet adapters? Also, when possible, prefer Thunderbolt direct connection over Ethernet as it is somehow faster.


----------



## IFM

jmauz said:


> OK it's the end of the year and I'm considering getting one of these things. Here's my setup:
> 
> Focusrite RedNet Thunderbolt 2 Interface
> 3 ethernet connections to Dante Network, VE Pro Network, and Internet
> 3 monitors
> Cubase 12
> VE Pro
> 
> The only problem I see in terms of connectivity is the 3 ethernet ports. Not sure how to solve that other than getting a PCI chassis. I'll also need a SSD chassis. Ugh.


Use the internal one for Internet connections, get two TB to Ethernet adaptors such as the OWC 10G unit, or use the TB3-->TB2 and a TB2 to Ethernet adaptor. VEP can get away with a USBC to Ethernet and Dante may be able to as well. The USBC ones are cheap off of Amazon so you can test that first.


----------



## rnb_2

IFM said:


> Use the internal one for Internet connections, get two TB to Ethernet adaptors such as the OWC 10G unit, or use the TB3-->TB2 and a TB2 to Ethernet adaptor. VEP can get away with a USBC to Ethernet and Dante may be able to as well. The USBC ones are cheap off of Amazon so you can test that first.


You should be able to use those Ethernet adapters (or at least one of them) through something like the Caldigit Element Thunderbolt hub so they don't use up too many ports on the Studio.


----------



## IFM

rnb_2 said:


> You should be able to use those Ethernet adapters (or at least one of them) through something like the Caldigit Element Thunderbolt hub so they don't use up too many ports on the Studio.


^ This is correct. I have an OWC hub with two TB to HDMI adaptors and another one with the Sonnet Ethernet unit.


----------



## AndyP

Has anyone tried running 2 virtual display adapters on a MacStudio with no monitors attached. The purpose is to be able to control this MacStudio remotely with 2 monitors.



Robot or human?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

machinesworking said:


> Self powered USB enclosures on Mac OS have long been hit or miss as to whether they're prone to dismounting randomly.


I just saw this. Without wanting to be that annoying jackass on the Internet who insists the problems people are having don't exist because he's never encountered them...

Oops, I guess that does describe me.

But are you sure it's not specific to your system? I've been using self-powered USB laptop drives from different companies (5400 RPM) for many years and never had one disconnect, and I had two different SSDs in no-name enclosures connected temporarily to my Mac Studio for three months. One of those SSDs was connected externally to my previous machine for a couple of years.

Never had one disconnect. Not once.

The only issue I have has nothing to do with disconnecting, it has to do with the Mac scanning its ports more slowly than it generates "I can't find that spinning backup drive you have connected to a USB hub" messages when you wake the machine from sleep.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

jmauz said:


> OK it's the end of the year and I'm considering getting one of these things. Here's my setup:
> 
> Focusrite RedNet Thunderbolt 2 Interface
> 3 ethernet connections to Dante Network, VE Pro Network, and Internet
> 3 monitors
> Cubase 12
> VE Pro
> 
> The only problem I see in terms of connectivity is the 3 ethernet ports. Not sure how to solve that other than getting a PCI chassis. I'll also need a SSD chassis. Ugh.



Why not just use a $20 Ethernet switch for the three Ethernet ports?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

AndyP said:


> Has anyone tried running 2 virtual display adapters on a MacStudio with no monitors attached. The purpose is to be able to control this MacStudio remotely with 2 monitors.
> 
> 
> 
> Robot or human?



I'm lost. Would you mind explaining that more slowly for me?


----------



## AndyP

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I'm lost. Would you mind explaining that more slowly for me?


With pleasure.
I have several Mac setups that I can use in different rooms.
For example, I use a MacBook Pro with 2 monitors.
The Mac Studio is in another room, and currently has no monitor connected. Via remote access I can log in to the studio, but then I only have one monitor screen that I can access via remote control. So on the Macbook I only see one monitor on the Mac Studio, which is perfectly correct.
But if I also want to mirror the MacStudio with 2 monitors, I must either connect 2 monitors there, or simulate 2 monitors!
These adapters are "supposed" to be able to do that. So they suggest the MacStudio that 2 monitors are connected, which I can then also address via remote control from the MacBook.

These adapters, which are supposed to simulate a monitor, are available as HDMI and USB-C variants.


----------



## Pier

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Why not just use a $20 Ethernet switch for the three Ethernet ports?


That was my thought too but I guess using 3x ethernet ports means 3x bandwidth?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

AndyP said:


> but then I only have one monitor screen that I can access via remote control.



Got it. Thanks.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Pier said:


> That was my thought too but I guess using 3x ethernet ports means 3x bandwidth?


It's a 10GB Ethernet port on the Mac Studio.

Would this work?









Netis P110GC 8GE Gigabit PoE Switch and 2GE Gigabit Uplink | 30W PoE+ Per Port 802.3af/at PoE Budget 120W | with 4KV Lightning Protection, Internal Power Supply and Long Distance Data Transmission - Newegg.com


Buy Netis P110GC 8GE Gigabit PoE Switch and 2GE Gigabit Uplink | 30W PoE+ Per Port 802.3af/at PoE Budget 120W | with 4KV Lightning Protection, Internal Power Supply and Long Distance Data Transmission with fast shipping and top-rated customer service. Once you know, you Newegg!




www.newegg.com


----------



## Pier

Nick Batzdorf said:


> It's a 10GB Ethernet port on the Mac Studio.
> 
> Would this work?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Netis P110GC 8GE Gigabit PoE Switch and 2GE Gigabit Uplink | 30W PoE+ Per Port 802.3af/at PoE Budget 120W | with 4KV Lightning Protection, Internal Power Supply and Long Distance Data Transmission - Newegg.com
> 
> 
> Buy Netis P110GC 8GE Gigabit PoE Switch and 2GE Gigabit Uplink | 30W PoE+ Per Port 802.3af/at PoE Budget 120W | with 4KV Lightning Protection, Internal Power Supply and Long Distance Data Transmission with fast shipping and top-rated customer service. Once you know, you Newegg!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.newegg.com


It should although the 10Gb will be shared by all the connected devices. It should be plenty although I have no idea how much the Dante and VE Pro need.

Also notice it's actually Gigabits not Gigabytes. About 1.25 Gigabytes per second in the best case scenario.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Pier said:


> It should although the 10Gb will be shared by all the connected devices. It should be plenty although I have no idea how much the Dante and VE Pro need.
> 
> Also notice it's actually Gigabits not Gigabytes. About 1.25 Gigabytes per second in the best case scenario.


Well, I think all the devices use regular gigabit Ethernet, and if this is sharing 10GB between three devices you'd think it would have plenty of bandwidth.

But it may be more complicated than that, I don't know.


----------



## rnb_2

Pier said:


> That was my thought too but I guess using 3x ethernet ports means 3x bandwidth?


Interesting thought. It didn't cross my mind because this is the inverse of what I would normally use a switch for: taking one network line and splitting it to three devices. Networking is hardly my strongest area - it's been over a decade since I had to manage networks in anything beyond a home setup - but wouldn't you want those three connections to come into the computer separately? Or can you have all three on the same network/subnet and point them at the same IP at the computer end, and the software will just figure it out?


----------



## Pier

rnb_2 said:


> but wouldn't you want those three connections to come into the computer separately?


I'm no expert... but it depends on how much bandwidth you need.

If 10Gbps is enough for all three connections then I think there would be no noticeable difference. Maybe a switch introduces a very very very small amount of latency but it's probably negligible.


----------



## machinesworking

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I just saw this. Without wanting to be that annoying jackass on the Internet who insists the problems people are having don't exist because he's never encountered them...
> 
> Oops, I guess that does describe me.
> 
> But are you sure it's not specific to your system? I've been using self-powered USB laptop drives from different companies (5400 RPM) for many years and never had one disconnect, and I had two different SSDs in no-name enclosures connected temporarily to my Mac Studio for three months. One of those SSDs was connected externally to my previous machine for a couple of years.
> 
> Never had one disconnect. Not once.
> 
> The only issue I have has nothing to do with disconnecting, it has to do with the Mac scanning its ports more slowly than it generates "I can't find that spinning backup drive you have connected to a USB hub" messages when you wake the machine from sleep.


 Look, not everyone has the same issues, but it's not me alone, or anything new. Third party enclosures can be hit or miss with random dismounting on Mac OS, that's the gist of it. Monterey did this the most recently here with a USB-C enclosure for an NVME drive. This wasn't a wake from sleep issue, this was flat out dismounting after a couple minutes. The way it was obvious it was an OS issue is easy, it always mounted fine to a Mac Pro running Mojave here with a third party USB3 PCI from Sonnet, and would fail after a couple minutes on the M1 Air under Monterey. Then to top it off, after an update to Monterey the issue went away completely. 
Same thing applied a few years ago with my USB3 SSD enclosures from Sabrent, earlier versions of Mac OS than Mojave would have them pop up an alert that they had been improperly ejected, although they were still mounted. Then there was/is the intermittent wake from sleep issues with third party external drives. 

Everything is super fine right now, this version of Monterey and Mojave are working on my machines, but Mac OS can and has dropped the ball with third party USB enclosure compatibility in the past. The safest bets are ethernet and Thunderbolt, but I still mostly have USB enclosures here.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

machinesworking said:


> Same thing applied a few years ago with my USB3 SSD enclosures from Sabrent, earlier versions of Mac OS than Mojave would have them pop up an alert that they had been improperly ejected, although they were still mounted. Then there was/is the intermittent wake from sleep issues with third party external drives.


Come to think of it, I have read about issues with specific m.2 enclosures (I think it was the Sabrent but it could have been Orico? But I don't want to spread malicious gossip without even remembering which one it was, plus companies come out with new versions to address issues.)

And yeah, Apple OS and Mac changes can break things. That seems especially likely with USB, because there are lots of versions and also because Thunderbolt and DisplayPort now come out the same hole.

There's also 3.2 gen 2, which Macs don't support at full speed, i.e. they jump from USB 3.1 gen 2 to USB 4.


machinesworking said:


> Everything is super fine right now, this version of Monterey and Mojave are working on my machines, but Mac OS can and has dropped the ball with third party USB enclosure compatibility in the past. The safest bets are ethernet and Thunderbolt, but I still mostly have USB enclosures here.


As an aside, I don't think it's possible to tell a Mac to use Thunderbolt instead of USB these days. It seems to do what it wants.


----------



## jmauz

IFM said:


> Use the internal one for Internet connections, get two TB to Ethernet adaptors such as the OWC 10G unit, or use the TB3-->TB2 and a TB2 to Ethernet adaptor. VEP can get away with a USBC to Ethernet and Dante may be able to as well. The USBC ones are cheap off of Amazon so you can test that first.


Excellent recommendation, I will look into this! Thanks!


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## stingray306

Ben E said:


> I've never done this before...
> 
> My Mac Studio has arrived (more than 4 weeks earlier than estimated!) and I’m ready to transfer everything over to it.
> 
> I know this is a total noob question but, am I going to run into any roadblocks? I've never had to transfer stuff to a new machine. So far, everything has been on my iMac from 2013.
> 
> To be clear, this is what I’m working with:
> 
> Logic Pro
> Kontakt
> Omnisphere
> A handful of third party plugins: Spitfire’s player stuff, NI Replika, Valhalla Room, Sample Modeling etc. But not many. Like 7 maybe.
> _All my sample libraries are on an external drive._
> 
> Can anyone point me to a step-by-step instruction how to get my new Mac Studio to be my new machine?
> 
> Or am I making a mountain out of a molehill? Is it pretty easy after all?


I'm also coming from a 2013 iMac to a Max -- having a really challenging time. Opted for the manual transfer route as I want to start fresh and avoid transferring any trash to my new system. Nothing is working, I have no clue where to start with the mounds of plugins and libraries that seem to individually need some sort of fixing. I've been terrified of upgrading for years and this is my worst nightmare lol. Maybe I'm just doing something wrong, but best of luck to you.


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## HCMarkus

Sorry you're having trouble, stingray306. I did a manual transfer to a Mac Studio from my 2010 12 core Mac Pro, and everything went swimmingly. I approached it like this:

Started up new Mac and signed in to iCloud so passwords, notes, etc. are available on the new Mac.

(optional) Ran Migration Assistant for Network settings only.

Set up my Email Accounts.

My Mac has a 2TB internal SSD. I created a new, second APFS Volume for my Working Project Files. Apps and OS go on Volume 1. Volume 2 is Project File data only. All VI Data goes on external NVMe Thunderbolt drives.

Installed software... I did not try to transfer any Apps or Plugins... went back to the source (seller) for each. This was made easier due to the fact I had a list of all my plugin publishers, along with log in and serial number info for each. As I went along, I made a list of which plugins were not Apple Silicon Native. I check back periodically; that list has shrunk down to just a couple of laggards. (come on Audio Ease!)

Copied VI Data to my new external VI Sample Data Drive. I used a USB drive caddy as go-between, first copying my VI Data to a spare spinner, then transferring to my new VI Data Drive.

Lots of authorizations along the way. 

Get the App _PlugInfo_ from App Store to help manage plugins and know for sure which ones are truly Apple Silicon Native.

Hope this helps.


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## BassClef

I too upgraded a few months ago from iMac 2014 to Studio Ultra. I am not an expert on anything but did (without much trouble) get it up and running STARTING FROM SCRATCH without using Apple's Migration Assistant software. I then did a clean install of all software. For Music production, I first installed Logic, then each sample player needed... Kontakt, EW Opus, Spitfire, etc., and went from there. 

"Nothing is working" sounds really scary, so try to be more specific. Do you mean than the computer is working but your having trouble with your music production software, plugins, samples, etc?


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## Nick Batzdorf

I'd still be setting up this Mac Studio four months later without Migration Assistant.

But especially when moving from Intel to Apple Silicon, I shudder to think what a clustershag it would have been if I'd tried to use it for programs.


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