# Strange Composer Cloud Dilemma



## Yamaha

This is my first post on VI CONTROL I’ve been in music for many years, but I’ve only been composing with MIDI for three years – mostly orchestral and choral. I suspect that my problem is unsolvable. But here goes:

I subscribe to EastWest’s Cloud Composer Plus. The libraries are all fabulous -- except for Hollywood Strings Diamond. Amazingly, the entire library is spectacularly out of tune with itself – for example, the first articulation in Cello Divisi, Long Power System: E4 is 330 Hz, as it should be. But E5, which should be 660 Hz, is 642 Hz – not even close. And every note on every articulation of every instrument has pitch shifts all over the map. The pitches don’t shift: they’re fixed in the same, very wrong place.

I’ve had innumerable conversations and remotes with EastWest, Steinberg, Sweetwater, and even Yamaha (my controller keyboard is an NU-1 hybrid). No one has any idea what’s going on. One technician suggested that the only possible explanation is that my small studio is haunted.

When they heard WAV samples of the pitch errors, EastWest was amazed – Their developers said they’d never heard anything like it. And no one has been able to replicate the problem.

I’ve tried Hollywood Strings in Play stand-alone. I’ve downloaded “fresh” copies of it. I’ve even loaded Cubase and Hollywood Strings on two other PCs. I’ve used different keyboard controllers. But the tests always produce the same results.

And the pitch of every other EastWest library and instrument is perfect. If anyone has any ideas, I’d sure love to hear them!

Equipment: Intel i5-7400; 32 GB RAM; Operating system and all VST libraries on SSD; Audient iD14; Integra 7; Chris Hein Strings; Garritan Pipe Organs, etc.


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## proxima

Trying different keyboard controllers isn't going to be useful - once the MIDI data is in the DAW, it doesn't matter how it got there. And you should be able to clearly see exactly what Cubase is sending to the plugin in terms of note, pitch bend (none), etc, ensuring that the controller is doing what you expect. I'd actually be drawing in my notes just to be doubly sure. 

I presume at some point you tried loading up Play in standalone mode without a DAW?


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## Yamaha

Thank you for your quick reply. I have tried Play in stand-alone, and I've tried drawing in the notes with Cubase - both with the same pitch errors. You're right, the keyboard controllers couldn't possibly be causing the errors, but at this point I'll try anything, up to and including an exorcism, as one of the technicians suggested during a remote!


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## jacobthestupendous

I don’t know Play, but in Logic and some virtual instruments there are ways to use “other” scales with alternate tunings and temperaments. I imagine that would feel roughly the way you’re describing. Is it possible that this preference has been switched in your Play by default?


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## Yamaha

Play only has global microtuning -- not individual notes that are out of tune with each other. Chris Hein Strings does have microtuning for one full scale -- which is automatically repeated across the keyboard. Thanks for your suggestion.


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## Nimrod7

Yamaha said:


> Play only has global microtuning


Play have 2 tuning settings, can't remember if one, changes the other. 
Just in case, have you checked both? 

My impression is that microtuning, shifts notes up or down individually across an octave.


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## Yamaha

I wish it did. I spoke with EastWest today to confirm. They told me that Play has never been designed to do any micro tuning other than global. The choice is either Coarse or Fine global tuning Play is not, and never has been, designed to do individual tuning such as can Chris Hein libraries. The only tuning variations are set (e.g., various Eastern tunings), and cannot be customized. But thanks for the input.


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## Ben Catman

Hello there , one stupid question but how did you meassure the samples? Have you (i ausme so) already tried an other tuner?


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## Yamaha

I'm using a Hz meter -- I've tested it against standard tones, and it's very precise. On the many remotes, technicians have listened to scales, octaves, and chords, and all have agreed that the tuning is awful -- and without precedent on any equipment. I'm attaching two brief audio samples, taken at random from Hollywood Strings, Cellos Divisi, Powerful System. Thank you for pursuing this.


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## gzapper

Could it be a sample rate error?
The difference between 44.1 khz and 48 is about a semi tone and a half, if I remember correctly.

Could your DAW be clocked differently than your Audient?


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## Illico

Do you try with PLAY sampler in standalone mode (without DAW)?


Yamaha said:


> ... I have tried Play in stand-alone, and I've tried drawing in the notes with Cubase - both with the same pitch errors. ...


EDIT : Oupps.


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## Yamaha

Thank you for your questions -- and for not giving up on my dilemma. 

The variation in the sample (at E4) is measured in Hz -- the measured error of 16 Hz seems correct, given the cycles at that point in the scale. Concert pitch for E4 is 659.25 Hz; for F4, it's 698.46 Hz -- an increase of 39.21 Hz. Hearing the samples (attached above) demonstrate that a 16 Hz error when playing E4 is quite enough to be dramatic.

My tests show that the pitch error is the same whether I'm using the DAW (Cubase 11) or with Play in stand-alone. Also, I have loaded Cubase and Play on two other computers unconnected with my MIDI system. In each case, none of the MIDI equipment was connected to the set-up (e.g., audio was through each test computers' sound cards, not the Audient). On both new computers, the errors were exactly the same. (All of my tests are listed in my first post, above.) Thank you!


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## Jeremy Spencer

Yamaha said:


> I'm using a Hz meter -- I've tested it against standard tones, and it's very precise. On the many remotes, technicians have listened to scales, octaves, and chords, and all have agreed that the tuning is awful -- and without precedent on any equipment. I'm attaching two brief audio samples, taken at random from Hollywood Strings, Cellos Divisi, Powerful System. Thank you for pursuing this.


What if you play that an octave lower?


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## Yamaha

That's an excellent question. The lower I go in the scale, the less you can hear the problem. I spent a long time trying to answer that question. Then I realized that the answer is that, the lower you get in the scale, the less the Hz difference between adjacent notes. (Of course -- each descending octave halves the Hz!) The difference between E3 concert pitch and F3 is only 10 Hz. The Hz error is always a significant percentage of the difference between two successive notes, which difference decreases the lower you go. (Or another way of putting it - it's a small percentage of any given note's Hz value - which get's less as the you go lower and the Hz value decreases dramatically.)


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## Yamaha

Yamaha said:


> That's an excellent question. The lower I go in the scale, the less you can hear the problem. I spent a long time trying to answer that question. Then I realized that the answer is that, the lower you get in the scale, the less the Hz difference between adjacent notes. (Of course -- each descending octave halves the Hz!) The difference between E3 concert pitch and F3 is only 10 Hz. The Hz error is always a significant percentage of the difference between two successive notes, which difference decreases the lower you go. (Or another way of putting it - it's a small percentage of any given note's Hz value - which get's less as the you go lower and the Hz value decreases dramatically.)


Addendum to previous: Presumably, the human ear can hear an error of 16 Hz, but it's harder to hear 8 Hz or 4 Hz (successively lower octaves. Of course, this assumes that the error as a percentage of the Hz value remains constant -- but that may be wrong, as nothing in this dilemma makes sense).


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## Jeremy Spencer

The reason I asked its because your example sounds more like a viola part, a cello would sound more natural if that were played an octave lower.


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## gzapper

Yamaha said:


> Thank you for your questions -- and for not giving up on my dilemma.
> 
> The variation in the sample (at E4) is measured in Hz -- the measured error of 16 Hz seems correct, given the cycles at that point in the scale. Concert pitch for E4 is 659.25 Hz; for F4, it's 698.46 Hz -- an increase of 39.21 Hz. Hearing the samples (attached above) demonstrate that a 16 Hz error when playing E4 is quite enough to be dramatic.
> 
> My tests show that the pitch error is the same whether I'm using the DAW (Cubase 11) or with Play in stand-alone. Also, I have loaded Cubase and Play on two other computers unconnected with my MIDI system. In each case, none of the MIDI equipment was connected to the set-up (e.g., audio was through each test computers' sound cards, not the Audient). On both new computers, the errors were exactly the same. (All of my tests are listed in my first post, above.) Thank you!


You haven't used scala tuning files in the past or somehow embedded tuning files into your sampler, have you? Is this Kontakt or the Play engine?


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## Yamaha

Violas are just as bad at E4. Oddly, E3 vs. E4 seems to be the clearest example of the error for nearly all Hollywood Strings.


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## Jeremy Spencer

Very bizarre, as I've never encountered this.


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## gzapper

Yamaha said:


> Violas are just as bad at E4. Oddly, E3 vs. E4 seems to be the clearest example of the error for nearly all Hollywood Strings.


That makes it sound like you've somehow installed a tuning temperament in Play, though it doesn't have that available even in the advanced tab, does it?


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## Yamaha

That's correct -- I've never installed a tuning temperament -- no imbedded tuning files.
Note that we've even tried reformatting the entire PC (including Windows) and downloading "fresh" copies of Hollywood Strings, Cubase 9.5, 10, and 11 -- as well as starting from scratch on two "clean" PCs.


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## Jeremy Spencer

Could you post a fully orchestrated file (Hollywood Strings) so we could hear it all in context?


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## Yamaha

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Could you post a fully orchestrated file (Hollywood Strings) so we could hear it all in context?


Good idea, and I'll do so, but it will take a little while -- After discovering the problem when I first loaded Hollywood Strings, I've avoided it like the plague, never using any of it in my orchestrating, as it sounded so bad. I'll find a suitable string piece, and substitute Hollywood Strings for the current VSTs. This is going to be painful, but I think I can get it out tomorrow. Thanks for your patience.


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## WhiteNoiz

It could be a PLAY bug, pretty sure I've encountered something similar at some points, but I think every lib got detuned. Pretty sure it solves itself if you re-open the projects, but sometimes I'll have to go and check every patch, just to make sure nothing's stuck (pain, yes, though it's audible if it happens). Also, from what I recall, it could go hand-in-hand with the stuck notes thing (especially if you have a held note and load something or play on top). Seems to get worse the more you load... PLAY doesn't like playing with itself it seems. 

They don't occur a lot, but they do, occasionally. Save often...


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## Gauss

Just for test. In Play change the Pitch Bend value from default 0.32 to 0.0.


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## Yamaha

WhiteNoiz said:


> It could be a PLAY bug, pretty sure I've encountered something similar at some points, but I think every lib got detuned. Pretty sure it solves itself if you re-open the projects, but sometimes I'll have to go and check every patch, just to make sure nothing's stuck (pain, yes, though it's audible if it happens). Also, from what I recall, it could go hand-in-hand with the stuck notes thing (especially if you have a held note and load something or play on top). Seems to get worse the more you load... PLAY doesn't like playing with itself it seems.
> 
> They don't occur a lot, but they do, occasionally. Save often...


Thanks for your suggestion. Unfortunately, in Hollywood Strings, the serious frequency errors -- and the degree of error on each note across the keyboard -- has been unchanged (neither worse nor better) ever since I downloaded it two years ago. No amount of tinkering with controls, loading into new projects, or new downloads of Play affect the errors. The same exact errors occur in both Hollywood Strings Gold and Diamond.


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## Yamaha

Gauss said:


> Just for test. In Play change the Pitch Bend value from default 0.32 to 0.0.


Thanks for the idea. I tried this -- unfortunately, no change for any of the instruments I tested.


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## DennyB

Have you used the midi monitor in cubase to make sure you aren’t sending any spurious control messages (eg pitch bend)?


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## Yamaha

Yes, I've checked - no spurious control messages. But thanks for the suggestion.


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## Yamaha

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Could you post a fully orchestrated file (Hollywood Strings) so we could hear it all in context?


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## Yamaha

I'm attaching a short string piece, in Hollywood Strings and EW Orchestra Strings versions. The Hollywood version is rough -- I couldn't replace with identical instruments, and I didn't do any work on it. I'm also including a short cello version, as cellos make the errors even clearer. Thanks.


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## Jeremy Spencer

Yamaha said:


> I'm attaching a short string piece, in Hollywood Strings and EW Orchestra Strings versions. The Hollywood version is rough -- I couldn't replace with identical instruments, and I didn't do any work on it. I'm also including a short cello version, as cellos make the errors even clearer. Thanks.


I can't really tell if there's tuning issues, but there's certainly a lack of dynamics, which may be contributing to an "untuned" feel (??). Just my 2 cents, but I would try programming the pieces from scratch, using patches such as the Niente articulations (including legatos). To me, it just sounds like everything (in the Hollywood versions) are maximum velocity. If you use CC's that certain patches are designed to utilize, these pieces will no doubt have a different sound (more realistic).


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## audio1

Yamaha said:


> I'm using a Hz meter -- I've tested it against standard tones, and it's very precise. On the many remotes, technicians have listened to scales, octaves, and chords, and all have agreed that the tuning is awful -- and without precedent on any equipment. I'm attaching two brief audio samples, taken at random from Hollywood Strings, Cellos Divisi, Powerful System. Thank you for pursuing this.


Please provide files without reverb?


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## Yamaha

Jeremy Spencer said:


> I can't really tell if there's tuning issues, but there's certainly a lack of dynamics, which may be contributing to an "untuned" feel (??). Just my 2 cents, but I would try programming the pieces from scratch, using patches such as the Niente articulations (including legatos). To me, it just sounds like everything (in the Hollywood versions) are maximum velocity. If you use CC's that certain patches are designed to utilize, these pieces will no doubt have a different sound (more realistic).





Jeremy Spencer said:


> I can't really tell if there's tuning issues, but there's certainly a lack of dynamics, which may be contributing to an "untuned" feel (??). Just my 2 cents, but I would try programming the pieces from scratch, using patches such as the Niente articulations (including legatos). To me, it just sounds like everything (in the Hollywood versions) are maximum velocity. If you use CC's that certain patches are designed to utilize, these pieces will no doubt have a different sound (more realistic).


Thanks for your reply. We did try varying the velocity. I’ve programmed many pieces from scratch, and have literally auditioned every instrument and every articulation in Hollywood Strings – all with the same result. Several technicians at EastWest have been working on this for some time. After months of tests, and dozens of remotes (including Steinberg and even Sweetwater), all agree that they've never seen pitch errors as extreme as 39 Hz.

Early on, I identified what I thought were clues to finding a solution.

First, Hollywood Strings consists of ensembles, of course. (The solo strings are loaded separately.) On many of the notes – but not all – the ensembles are out of tune with themselves. That is, the “humanizing” of the players (slight tuning differences, creating a natural sound) is carried to -- and beyond -- the dissonant extreme. (In Venna’s Synchron player, I love the humanizing control for string ensembles. The Hollywood Strings spread is at least five times wider than the maximum setting of Synchron’s slider, and the result is amazingly awful.)

Second, all Hollywood brass and woodwinds are perfect. And all Hollywood Diamond solo strings (again, loaded separately from Hollywood Strings) – are perfect.

Unfortunately, this information hasn’t helped us solve the problem. EastWest says they're still working on it, but after 11 months, I'm not holding my breath.

Again, thank you for your input, and for not giving up on this!


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## Yamaha

Yamaha said:


> Thanks for your reply. We did try varying the velocity. I’ve programmed many pieces from scratch, and have literally auditioned every instrument and every articulation in Hollywood Strings – all with the same result. Several technicians at EastWest have been working on this for some time. After months of tests, and dozens of remotes (including Steinberg and even Sweetwater), all agree that they've never seen pitch errors as extreme as 39 Hz.
> 
> Early on, I identified what I thought were clues to finding a solution.
> 
> First, Hollywood Strings consists of ensembles, of course. (The solo strings are loaded separately.) On many of the notes – but not all – the ensembles are out of tune with themselves. That is, the “humanizing” of the players (slight tuning differences, creating a natural sound) is carried to -- and beyond -- the dissonant extreme. (In Venna’s Synchron player, I love the humanizing control for string ensembles. The Hollywood Strings spread is at least five times wider than the maximum setting of Synchron’s slider, and the result is amazingly awful.)
> 
> Second, all Hollywood brass and woodwinds are perfect. And all Hollywood Diamond solo strings (again, loaded separately from Hollywood Strings) – are perfect.
> 
> Unfortunately, this information hasn’t helped us solve the problem. EastWest says they're still working on it, but after 11 months, I'm not holding my breath.
> 
> Again, thank you for your input, and for not giving up on this!


Addendum to my previous posting: If only EastWest's Play engine had a humanizing control! Then I could, presumably, at least reduce the dissonance on many of the notes within ensembles.


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## Jeremy Spencer

It's bizarre for sure. I definitely hear some minor tuning issues in a handful of HS patches (as with many string libraries), but to me it adds to the organic feel of the library. In the past ten years, I have not sent out a piece that sounded out of tune....and I use HS on nearly every single piece that has strings.


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