# Sata ssd vs usb3 ssd



## dan1 (Mar 31, 2016)

This is my Samsung EVO 850 SSD (SATA)
It takes 1sec to load Piano in Blue (taking 470mb in RAM)
The EVO read/write speed is approx 500mb/s






This is Samsung Portable T1 SSD (USB3)
Its read/write speed is the same as the EVO ~500mb/s
How quick will it take to load Piano in Blue?


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## mac (Mar 31, 2016)

Judging by the tests I've read, it should be about the same. I want a T1 myself, but I'm on the fence about buying due to the hoops you have to jump through to have it show as a regular disk on osx.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 31, 2016)

Here's a thread from a user who has SSD speed issues with exactly T1 Portable drive:

https://www.native-instruments.com/forum/threads/new-external-ssd-to-slow.268947

I would avoid attaching SSDs over USB, if at all possible. Even though USB3 is supposed to be faster, it doesn't really lend itself as well for DFD as faster connections do (eSATA, TB, M.2, etc.).


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## dan1 (Mar 31, 2016)

it's a big investment for me because I'm planning on getting the 1tb so I must know for 100% that the loading speeds will be identical with my internal SSD


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Mar 31, 2016)

I've always had issues running Samsung SSD's in a Startech USB3 enclosure (which I've heard perform well). I think it has to do with it having some sort of delay. Kontakt slowly unloads parts of samples (different from purging!) so then when you play a patch after not having played for a while it needs to quickly load it in (the memory meter in Kontakt doesn't change but in the task manager you can see it change). With internal drives I've never had issues with this. With 2 different externall USB3 SSD's on both Windows and Mac I've had issues where it then causes an asio spike because it can't get those sample in quickly enough to start playing. Once it's actually loaded them in it then seems to work fine but you constantly get spikes when playing patches you haven't played in a while. I don't think load times will be affected.

I've also heard that USB 2 performs better for audio than 3 just because of how the protocol works. Obviously you can't really use a 2 drive for samples but I'm just point out that it does have some shortcomings so I'd avoid it if you can. The only reason I had to get the 2 external drives was to use with my mac mini and my laptop.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 31, 2016)

dan1 said:


> it's a big investment for me because I'm planning on getting the 1tb so I must know for 100% that the loading speeds will be identical with my internal SSD



They won't be identical, due to USB protocol. Only if you use eSATA or TB you can expect identical speeds.


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## dan1 (Mar 31, 2016)

EvilDragon said:


> They won't be identical, due to USB protocol. Only if you use eSATA or TB you can expect identical speeds.


then if I install a TB PCI card and then connect the T1 using USB3>TB adapter I will have the same speed as the SATA SSD?


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## Kaufmanmoon (Mar 31, 2016)

Ok, I'm going to hijack this thread as it's within the original question really. 
Could someone please tell us less external SSD Savvy what is the best way to go?
I'm getting a bit confused with all the options, then having to get a dock, then realising USB is not really fast enough?
What's the best options in 2016? 
I'm personally going to be using a Macbook soon with Thunderbolt and USB as my options.
Any help much appreciated and hopefully it will also help original poster


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## EvilDragon (Mar 31, 2016)

dan1 said:


> then if I install a TB PCI card and then connect the T1 using USB3>TB adapter I will have the same speed as the SATA SSD?



No, because it still uses USB then just bridges it onto TB. You need to have a proper external SSD within a TB enclosure. Not a USB SSD. The point is to bypass USB entirely.


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## Udo (Apr 1, 2016)

Check out USB 3.1 gen2 specs/implementations - 10Gbps.


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## Ashermusic (Apr 1, 2016)

On my Mac I am going eSATA to Thunderbolt with an SSD and it seems pretty fast to me.


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## soundgeek (Apr 1, 2016)

dan1 said:


> then if I install a TB PCI card and then connect the T1 using USB3>TB adapter I will have the same speed as the SATA SSD?



Make sure such a card or adapter exists ... As far as I know, they don't.

Usually thunderbolt cards are only for specific motherboards.
If your motherboard isn't "thunderbolt ready", there is no way you can add the port.

Other than that, USB over thunderbolt will not be any faster.


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## EvilDragon (Apr 1, 2016)

dan1, is this a laptop or a desktop you're using? Which one?


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## dan1 (Apr 2, 2016)

EvilDragon said:


> dan1, is this a laptop or a desktop you're using? Which one?


this is for my desktop, the config is 4770k 16gb & motherboard is gigabyte GA-Z97X-UD5H-BK


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## EvilDragon (Apr 2, 2016)

So why not use SATA ports on the motherboard, if you have some that are still free? They are all 6 Gbps, this will kill any external USB drive as far as performance goes.


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## soundgeek (Apr 2, 2016)

At first look, it doesn't seem to be possible to add thunderbolt.

But it seems you have an internal M.2 PCIe connector, so you may want to look at compatible PCIe based SSD's ... otherwise internal sata 6GBps will be fine.

If you want external, go for USB3.


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## dan1 (Apr 2, 2016)

EvilDragon said:


> So why not use SATA ports on the motherboard, if you have some that are still free? They are all 6 Gbps, this will kill any external USB drive as far as performance goes.


I was looking for a portable drive that I can share with my brother because he also wants to use the samples on his machine every once in a while and I needed something that's quick and easy to plug in and out just like a usb backup drive but without compromise on performance
I do have a sata ssd mounted on board but we're now wanting a 1tb to store samples and share with each other
I wonder if I'm getting the standard sata ssd then is there is some kind of pci card that I can connect the ssd via sata cable from outside the case like a usb port?


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## EvilDragon (Apr 2, 2016)

Yes, you are looking for eSATA then. And you can use a regular SSD in an enclosure that has USB and/or eSATA, if you look for them. 

Something like this: https://www.startech.com/HDD/Enclosures/esatap-usb-3-sata-6gbps-hdd-enclosure~S251SMU33EP


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## dan1 (Apr 3, 2016)

EvilDragon said:


> Yes, you are looking for eSATA then. And you can use a regular SSD in an enclosure that has USB and/or eSATA, if you look for them.
> 
> Something like this: https://www.startech.com/HDD/Enclosures/esatap-usb-3-sata-6gbps-hdd-enclosure~S251SMU33EP



ok i found these:










http://www.amazon.com/Anker-Aluminum-External-Enclosure-12-5mm/dp/B005B5G4S6

is there any difference between all these models other than price and number of slots? can i get any of these?


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## Hired Goon (Apr 3, 2016)

I gotta say...Evil Dragon... Is there anything you don't know when it comes to the audio/tech world? Has anyone stumped this guy yet?


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## EvilDragon (Apr 3, 2016)

I know a lot but I'm not omniscient. Still just a human, I make mistakes from time to time, like everybody else 


Dan1 - that Anker should be just fine. What I linked was just an example of what to look for.


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## Hired Goon (Apr 3, 2016)

EvilDragon said:


> I know a lot but I'm not omniscient. Still just a human, I make mistakes from time to time, like everybody else
> 
> 
> Dan1 - that Anker should be just fine. What I linked was just an example of what to look for.



Dude don't be so humble. I've been admiring your posts for years on Reaper and KVR forums.

You are the Oracle of Audio, the Sultan of Sound. You are one bad mofo on the boards, legit!


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## EvilDragon (Apr 3, 2016)

Don't flatter me too much, I might become too arrogant for my own good


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## Hired Goon (Apr 3, 2016)

Haha. Just felt it needed to be said, as you have patiently helped countless hordes of people over the years, and without attitude.


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## dan1 (Apr 3, 2016)

EvilDragon said:


> Dan1 - that Anker should be just fine. What I linked was just an example of what to look for.


thanks so much! I think I will get the anker
for the PCI I found these
http://www.ebay.com/itm/251546089054
https://www.startech.com/Cards-Adap...t-PCI-Express-eSATA-Controller-Card~PEXESATA2
is this a good match? and is there any risk in buying something this cheap (the ebay card) I mean is there any chance it will screw the ssd or the motherboard? I need two of these pci cards (one for me one for my brother) and I found the startech is the most popular but two of them will cost 80 so I prefer the cheaper option from ebay I just want to be sure that it is risk free


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## AllanH (Apr 3, 2016)

I have a little bit of empirical data, so let me share. I ran out of SSD space and bought a 128G USB3 memory stick. I moved my Garritan CFX to it (it's huge, so I had to skip the perspectives that I'm not using). I formatted the USB3 stick with NTFS first.

On a new i6700 with WD Caviar black drives, my "napkin test" is as follows:

1) compared to having the CFX samples on HD, the loadtimes were approximately cut in half from the USB3 memory stick.

2) SSD over SATA3 are about 5 times faster than the HD.

My guess (not "scientifically" measured) is that I'm looking at approximately

* 100 MB/s from the HD
* 200 MB/s from the USB3 memory stick
* 500 MB/s from the SSD (Crucial MX200)

So for about $30, I'm happy to have cut my piano load-times in half. It's *not* a substitute for a SATA III SSD.

Being straight off the SATA III controller is always the best.

Allan


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## proxima (Apr 3, 2016)

AllanH said:


> Being straight off the SATA III controller is always the best.


While I don't disagree with the conclusion (putting any interface between the SSD and the computer will inevitably lead to some performance loss), your comparison isn't between two SSDs. USB3 sticks use slower flash memory than that used in most SSDs. All SSDs aren't created equal either. 

In terms of raw efficient bandwidth, I can easily get > 400 MB/sec reads from a USB3-connected SSD. Of course, that's not the only performance metric that matters for sample libraries, which involves caching and reading small portions of many files.


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## AllanH (Apr 3, 2016)

You're right, of course. I just thought it would interesting to note the 2x improvement with an inexpensive USB3 memory stick. I've not tried a USB3 SSD, but if you get 400 MB/s, that excellent and something I'll consider moving forward.


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## gpax (Apr 4, 2016)

EvilDragon said:


> I would avoid attaching SSDs over USB, if at all possible. Even though USB3 is supposed to be faster, it doesn't really lend itself as well for DFD as faster connections do (eSATA, TB, M.2, etc.).


With respect to the above reply, and the NI discussion you referenced as well, can you clarify the difference here between faster options for transfer rates, and actual speed, relative to optimal DFD streaming itself?

I ask this because of having bought an EVO 850 last week to handle sample library overflow. Placing this inside a cheap UASP SATA III enclosure, its read speed benchmarked at 425+ MB/s, compared to 385 MB/s read times from the four (Crucial) SSDs in my Thunderbay 4.

Moreover, when I tested the EVO in the Thunderbay 4 expecting to see the read time potentially increase, it actually throttled down to 385 MB/s. That is another discussion, I realize, which I’m having elsewhere at present.

But am I confusing speed here with actual transfer rates, where your recommendation of eSATA and TB are relative to what is optimal for DFD in Kontakt?

I was not that long ago when many in this forum were giving thumbs up to using USB 3.0 enclosures on a dedicated bus.

-G


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## proxima (Apr 4, 2016)

gpax said:


> I was not that long ago when many in this forum were giving thumbs up to using USB 3.0 enclosures on a dedicated bus.


I would still argue it's a great economical choice. So much so that I haven't bothered (yet) to buy a Thunderbolt interface. But straight read speeds are not the full story of sample performance, and I haven't done side-by-side tests of a USB3 UASP interface versus a decent Thunderbolt interface. 

I'd love to see a thorough comparison of the same SSD with an internal SATA interface, a Thunderbolt interface, and a good USB3 interface with sample libraries testing voice counts.


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## dan1 (Apr 5, 2016)

EvilDragon said:


> Dan1 - that Anker should be just fine. What I linked was just an example of what to look for.


hi I was just about to buy the anker but noticed it supports up to 3gbps (over esata) and the startech supports up to 6gbps over esata
does it mean if i get the anker then kontakt will read at 375mb/s from the anker and 750mb/s from the startech am I right?


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## EvilDragon (Apr 5, 2016)

Yep, that's true. You'll want 6 Gbps for SSDs.


One thing to note is - you will NEVER see those MB/s numbers when DFD streaming. Those huge transfer rates are for _sequential _read/writes. What's important for streaming is random IOPS instead.


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## rgames (Apr 5, 2016)

Load up kontakt or VSL or PLAY and keep piling on voices until you hear crackles. Then note the voice count. That's the number we care about.

Or if you're concerned about load times then measure the load times.

Read speeds and IOPS are interesting but, ultimately, not what we're interested in. Why not measure what you care about?

It's like drag and gas mileage: sure, they're related. But if you care about gas mileage then your primary measurement should be gas mileage. Likewise, if your primary concern is voice count or load time then measure voice count or load time.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 5, 2016)

Richard is right. Those benchmark sites are for game-playing teenage boys, not musicians. 

Not only are benchmark specs irrelevant to what we're doing 87.753420004% of the time, you then have to figure in a very important factor: whether you care enough about a 3% higher vaginal whetstone count to waste money on yet another disposable adapter.

I've posted before that my load times from standard hard drives went way down when I upgraded my *system* drive to SSDs. And the bus on my computer runs at 3 Gbps, not 6, for one reason: I'm way too cheap to waste $50 on a card to bypass the internal bus and bring it up to 6!


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## dan1 (Apr 5, 2016)

EvilDragon said:


> Yep, that's true. You'll want 6 Gbps for SSDs.
> 
> 
> One thing to note is - you will NEVER see those MB/s numbers when DFD streaming. Those huge transfer rates are for _sequential _read/writes. What's important for streaming is random IOPS instead.


ok perfect I'll be getting the startech that seems to be the only 6gbps option within my budget
can't thank you enough!


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## passsacaglia (Apr 14, 2016)

Also thinkin of the mydigitalssd's bp5, and you buy an enclosure but it must support uasp?
Or are there any enclosures to avoid or 'not' to buy or something to think of? Read this thread and a lot more but a little confused. Would just need to hear "you will need this, and this". Will try re-read the thread and see if I get any more cleverer


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## Kaufmanmoon (Jun 27, 2016)

EvilDragon said:


> Here's a thread from a user who has SSD speed issues with exactly T1 Portable drive:
> 
> https://www.native-instruments.com/forum/threads/new-external-ssd-to-slow.268947
> 
> I would avoid attaching SSDs over USB, if at all possible. Even though USB3 is supposed to be faster, it doesn't really lend itself as well for DFD as faster connections do (eSATA, TB, M.2, etc.).



Hey Evil Dragon

I'm just looking at a Thundebolt Hub for my Macbook Pro. The one i'm looking at has esata connections on. Would you say putting a SSD in a esata enclosure, then into the Thunderbolt hub is going to be my best option (running sample libraries)
The hub also has USB 3.0 connections but it seems you're saying is esata is going to be better.


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## EvilDragon (Jun 27, 2016)

Yeah that sounds like something I'd do, use eSATA.


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## Kaufmanmoon (Jun 28, 2016)

Great, thanks


What esata enclosures are people using for their SSD's?


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## AllanH (Jun 28, 2016)

Yesterday's post on ZDnet seems to indicate the USB3 finally is beginning to live up to the performance promise for storage:

http://www.zdnet.com/article/we-tested-a-new-breed-of-usb-stick-thats-16x-faster-holds-240gb/


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## shnootre (Jul 1, 2016)

My very first post on Vi-Control forum, and I will instantly expose my naiveté. What I'm gleaning from the above discussion is that for a macbook pro user looking to expand w/ an external SSD for sample libraries, one should choose either an SSD with a Thunderbolt connection, or get a SATA ssd plus eSata enclosure w/ thunderbolt connection, and that the latter combo would probably be better? Forgive any outright stupidity and ignorance this question reveals!


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## EvilDragon (Jul 1, 2016)

Anything that connects to TB will be fine. SSD+eSATA with TB enclosure will probably be cheaper, but will work just as well.


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## Will Blackburn (Jul 29, 2016)

Can you ssd guys advise me please? I've been trying to find a balance between spiking and ram usage but im not sure the WD hard drive i have is up to the task.

My Pc Specs







I've been using an external WD Elements 5tb to house all of my Libs via an 
Anker AH241, running though VEP5 and Kontakt (on the same computer) and into Cubase 8.5.

For my Orchestral template I have to set Kontakts Preload buffer size right to the top (240.00kb) to avoid Asio Spiking, but even with preload that high i still get crackling when running multiple voices (especially when i introduce drum libs). And now RAM is maxing out because of the high buffer and the whole computer is sluggish and I've only got half my desired instruments in there. 

To what extent would SSDs eliminate the problems above?

I like the idea of having say 4/5 different ssd's, dedicating each one to Strings/Brass/Winds/Drums etc for portability.

Im on a 4 year old PC so no thunderbolt. Would there be any significant difference buying the sata versions of Samsung Evo as opposed to the Samsung external T'series ? I think buying expensive enclosures is beyond my budget at the moment but i only have two free spaces for internal drives so it looks like the External samsungs would be ideal for now. But then would i get similar usb3 issues running the T1/3's via the Anker?

I plan to get a slave comp but it will have to wait a year so im desperate to fin solutions for my current set up.

Any advice much appreciated,

Many thanks,
W


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 29, 2016)

> What I'm gleaning from the above discussion is that for a macbook pro user looking to expand w/ an external SSD for sample libraries, one should choose either an SSD with a Thunderbolt connection, or get a SATA ssd plus eSata enclosure w/ thunderbolt connection, and that the latter combo would probably be better?



It looks like Thunderbolt is going to be using a USB-C connector going forward, so unfortunately whatever you spend your money on will come with a time bomb.


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## musicallyhere (Sep 5, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> Anything that connects to TB will be fine. SSD+eSATA with TB enclosure will probably be cheaper, but will work just as well.



What new enclosure would you recommend that has USB-C / Thunderbolt 3 ports (to use in a new MacBook Pro that only has these ports)?


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## musicallyhere (Sep 5, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> It looks like Thunderbolt is going to be using a USB-C connector going forward, so unfortunately whatever you spend your money on will come with a time bomb.



Do you know of any new enclosure that uses a USB-C connector? I've been looking and there still isn't a lot of information on that...


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## musicallyhere (Sep 5, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> Yes, you are looking for eSATA then. And you can use a regular SSD in an enclosure that has USB and/or eSATA, if you look for them.
> 
> Something like this: https://www.startech.com/HDD/Enclosures/esatap-usb-3-sata-6gbps-hdd-enclosure~S251SMU33EP



Hi EvilDragon,

do you think that a new enclosure equivalent to that (compatible with the new USB-C/thunderbolt 3 ports found in new MacBooks) could be something like this: https://www.startech.com/uk/HDD/Enclosures/usb-3-1-drive-enclosure~S251BPU31C3

or this: https://www.startech.com/HDD/Enclosures/usb-3-1-enclosure~S251BMU313

I haven't found a lot of information on new enclosures compatible with these new ports!


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## JohnG (Sep 5, 2018)

I think the dock I have probably would be fine with a laptop, though I'm using it with an iMac that has Thunderbolt 3 (USB-C is a synonym it appears). It's called a Thunderbay from OWC -- the model I have is actually Thunderbolt 2 so you need an adapter, but it's running fine with Pro Tools.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 5, 2018)

Oy.

I'm all for progress, but not when it creates problems without solving any.


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## musicallyhere (Sep 5, 2018)

JohnG said:


> I think the dock I have probably would be fine with a laptop, though I'm using it with an iMac that has Thunderbolt 3 (USB-C is a synonym it appears). It's called a Thunderbay from OWC -- the model I have is actually Thunderbolt 2 so you need an adapter, but it's running fine with Pro Tools.



Thanks, that seems fantastic, but I'm looking for a smaller, portable enclosure that preferably wouldn't need an adapter... not that easy to find, it appears!


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## JohnG (Sep 5, 2018)

musicallyhere said:


> I'm looking for a smaller, portable enclosure that preferably wouldn't need an adapter... not that easy to find, it appears!



You’re right— seems nutty that nobody makes one!


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## musicallyhere (Sep 18, 2018)

Udo said:


> Check out USB 3.1 gen2 specs/implementations - 10Gbps.



How do you think a usb-c enclosure compares itself to a TB enclosure in terms of speed?


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## redlester (Sep 20, 2018)

Will we ever see the day when hardware manufacturers sell computers (both Mac and PC) with a number of slots on the side or back into which an SSD can simply be slid in - like an SD or CF card reader - to install additional drive space, instead of having multiple cabled drives and adaptors/hubs hanging off the things? Or would that not work with the modern trend for ever more sleek and streamlined looks?


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## dedindi (Oct 1, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Oy.
> 
> I'm all for progress, but not when it creates problems without solving any.


+1


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