# Sub or not?



## Fab (Aug 19, 2017)

I use pretty average stereo monitors usually but having been around a different environment the last few days > main difference I think is that there is a beefy dedicated sub. Now, I think I am missing out on those low frequencies. I mean, it 'feels' nicer to have it on the last few bits I am working on...but does it make actually composing better or maybe just the initial novelty I am getting from a new setup?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 19, 2017)

What speakers are you using? I'd suggest sweeping a sine wave to see how low they respond before doing anything.

If they're rolling off too high - like 60Hz as many small speakers do - then a sub can help. But it has to be integrated well, or it'll just rumble, and that's not so easy.

It's not just an initial novelty. You want to know what's going on in your recordings, for example hammer thuds and vocal pops at 55Hz won't show up on all speakers.


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## TheNorseman (Aug 19, 2017)

I think I might be one of the only ones who never got into monitors and room treatment. before I ever got them, I started off on some Audio-Technica ATH m50 headphones. This was years ago. About a year later, I got the Adam a5x monitors. For some reason I always reverted back to my trusty headphones. When I listen to any other low freq, it totally throws me off. I still have the Adams but I hardly *never* use them. Especially when other people might hear my awful doodling.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Aug 19, 2017)

TheNorseman said:


> I think I might be one of the only ones who never got into monitors and room treatment. before I ever got them, I started off on some Audio-Technica ATH m50 headphones. This was years ago. About a year later, I got the Adam a5x monitors. For some reason I always reverted back to my trusty headphones. When I listen to any other low freq, it totally throws me off. I still have the Adams but I hardly *never* use them. Especially when other people might hear my awful doodling.



All that matters is what you're used to really. I know a mastering engineer (grammy nominated) who only works on headphones. He builds some of the best speakers on the planet but doesn't have any in his room.


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## ctsai89 (Aug 19, 2017)

subs help me when it comes to electronic music. Not so much orchestral or film. But I'd imagine it would help especially if you're doing a lot of bass sound fx like Hans Zimmer did in his Dunkirk score. I do think it's important to monitor those frequencies because they could build up and only when you have a sub you would know you'd have to low cut it just in case.


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## markleake (Aug 19, 2017)

Yes, without the sub, even in an orchestral context, you can miss how much low frequency mud (or other issues) is pressent.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 20, 2017)

What Mark says. As I said, mic pops and piano hammer thuds are below the cutoff of some speakers - such as NS10s.

ctsai, I'd add that orchestral bass drums for example have a lot of rumble-range (sub-80Hz) stuff. You probably want to hear that!

But you can even miss a lot of basic bass drum/bass stuff on small speakers.


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## ctsai89 (Aug 20, 2017)

I do low cut most of the stuff, sometimes with 2 channel EQ's for orchestral stuff. I agree for bass drums. Especially the HZ01 bass drums from the Junkie XL patches but I really only use those for epic or hybrid stuff and I rarely count that as pure. Pure Orchestral to me would be like a real orchestral recording and I find that most of the times having a sub makes no difference in decision making since I don't low cut the natural stuff from my spitifire string bass but I keep my sub on anyways just in case.


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## mc_deli (Aug 20, 2017)

Fab said:


> I use pretty average stereo monitors usually but having been around a different environment the last few days > main difference I think is that there is a beefy dedicated sub. Now, I think I am missing out on those low frequencies. I mean, it 'feels' nicer to have it on the last few bits I am working on...but does it make actually composing better or maybe just the initial novelty I am getting from a new setup?


Pretty weird q without more info... do you mix for a living? Are the other environments those of people mixing/mastering for a living?
Are you having problems with mixes?


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## robharvey (Aug 21, 2017)

Speaking from my own experience which is sort of limited to studios recording - I have found a sub to be valuable... Because most of the time you don't want stuff in that frequency, so having the sub tells you what's there is good! Kind of backwards but having a clean bass end is key to a good mix in my opinion. It's also among the harder things to get right.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 21, 2017)

The thing is, you can get lucky and just add a sub and have it sound great - as a friend who's an amazing engineer did with an $89 Costco sub and NS-10s - or it can be kind of a disaster when it's not integrated well.

Ideally you have a sub and speakers that are designed to work together and most likely has the right crossover - as with my Blue Sky System Ones.


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## Rctec (Aug 22, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> subs help me when it comes to electronic music. Not so much orchestral or film. But I'd imagine it would help especially if you're doing a lot of bass sound fx like Hans Zimmer did in his Dunkirk score. I do think it's important to monitor those frequencies because they could build up and only when you have a sub you would know you'd have to low cut it just in case.


...Actually, I don't use a sub. We really work hard to make the bass work on the main monitors. Especially since IMAX is a full-range system - without a sub. But sometimes Alan will sneak a little Bassdrum into a sub. But nothing pitched.


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## chimuelo (Aug 22, 2017)

Caught your show twice Rctec.
Fantastic audio/visual experience.
Was that IMAX?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 22, 2017)

Hans, those are big speakers, right?


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## kunst91 (Aug 22, 2017)

I ONLY use my sub for the LFE channel, not for bass management per the suggestion by @christianhenson 

If you're working in stereo you shouldn't need it. If your monitors don't have enough low end you'd be better off upgrading those instead of investing in a sub.


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## Rctec (Aug 22, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Hans, those are big speakers, right?


Nick, I'll let Alan answer some of this:
https://film-mixing.com/2016/07/28/film-score-mixing-with-alan-meyerson/

But in my room it's just little Quested V2108s with a bass extension


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## dgburns (Aug 22, 2017)

kunst91 said:


> I ONLY use my sub for the LFE channel, not for bass management per the suggestion by @christianhenson
> 
> If you're working in stereo you shouldn't need it. If your monitors don't have enough low end you'd be better off upgrading those instead of investing in a sub.



I'm not so sure about that. I feel I need a sub for bass management, I don't feel the need to send stuff to an lfe however.
@Rctec those Quested sure look like they have a sub for each speaker. Probably better then my focals.

-edit-
I've read that Alan article before methinks. He is actually sending live orchestra to lfe with some rbass or lowender. I've seen that before from others. But it's not pinned by any measure. You can't do that the right way without having a sub in the setup I think.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 22, 2017)

Okay, I also see that we're talking about two different things: 1. subs as a (hopefully) transparent component of the monitoring system, really just a woofer that happens to be in a separate enclosure; and 2. the LFE channel, which is a low-frequency effects channel in surround systems.

Fab is talking about #1.

Edit: Ah, I see kunst already said that, only he used the right term - bass management - and I didn't.


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## AR (Aug 23, 2017)

I have a sub in case I get a premix from the audio fx guys, which happens not often. But once, twice a year. And when they deliver a mix it often comes in 5.1 or above. And I use the sub for some heavy taiko stuff, but not as an 2.1 pass. Instead I use it as an extender spread across L/R/Lfe. Same goes for my Center speaker. I sometimes use it for solo vocals (having them spread across L/C/R).


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