# Agents -- for those that have them or care to speculate.



## kid-surf (Sep 20, 2006)

So....

I've been asked to submit my 'cd' to a particular agency/agent (a good one). But I'm kinda on the fence about how much music I should send. Obviously I'm trying to make a good impression. But you know how it is, I don't wanna send too little because then it's like "will they get my style?". And I don't wanna send too much cause then it might be like "dude, chill the fuck down, I got it.... but now I'm bored... you had me rock'n till the last hand full of tracks you should'a cut".

So what do you guys think is a good amount of music to send -- cue wise, and minutes wise.

Right now I'm at 32 tracks running 74 minutes. And I cut about 10 tracks so far. Am I out of my mind? (I mean, aside from having the track count at what it's currently at?  ). For jobs I wouldn't send this much music but it's to show who I am, so...? Hmmm?


Thoughts?

Thanks..........


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## Mike Greene (Sep 20, 2006)

For an agent, I'd be tempted to send a lot, because I'd expect that they're willing to listen much more carefully than a potential client would. 

If someone is going to be my agent, at some point I would want them to hear at least 32 of my tracks so they could really have a feel for me, rather than just a taste. So I might as well give them a pile now.

Of course, I don't have, and have never even tried to get an agent, so WTFDIK. :mrgreen: 

- Mike Greene


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## Daryl (Sep 20, 2006)

In my experience the music ,or amount of it, is not the important thing; the credit list is. However, make sure that whatever music you send has the bit you want them to hear in the first 30 seconds as they will likely skip to the next track very soon after.

D


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## kid-surf (Sep 20, 2006)

Mike -- I'm in the same frame of mind right now, unless I hear a good reason why that's not the case [re: pile] BTW --- everyone's opinion counts, regardless of how stupid it may be. :mrgreen: 

Daryl -- I hear you, but I'm thinking that might be more true of 'clients' as they sift through potential composers. Or perhaps if it were unsolicited. But who knows? (I don't have an agent). But having my best bits forward doesn't feel right to me, I feel like that would dilute my music and leave them wondering how I got to those points. Sorta like watching film clips rather than the film. I think it loses continuity and so forth. So I'm willing to risk them skipping ahead and missing something. I at least want to give them the opportunity to hear how I get around a piece of music in complete form. 

Credits --- I agree, I wouldn't even be looking for an agent if it weren't solicited. I know better from my wife. I figure, what have I got to lose, the worst that could happen is that this agent would know who I am.

Thanks guys, food for thought....


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## jeffc (Sep 20, 2006)

I would say send more, rather then less. I'd put a few trendy sounding tracks up front to show you're 'hip and edgy' - that seems to be a big deal. Leading off with stale orchestral stuff might not work to your advantage. But then I'd put a bunch of everything to show you're diverse and have some depth - if you only send 5 tracks they might think that that's all you've got. Odds are they won't listen to too much anyway.

I think the best time to hit them with the demo is when you have a potential gig on the table and you take it to them. This gives them incentive to 'sign' you, based on negotiating that deal. A demo with no offer of work might give them more reason to drag their feet on you.

Either way, you know at some point I think having an agent is very beneficial and adds legitimacy to you and will help you get better deals. But this is usually the point you're getting your own work - it's such a catch 22. I always used to think that getting an agent was the holy grail (naively) and would lead to tons of work. But I think we all know that it's just not the case. And I think most people would tell you the same thing in some for or another. I now realize that an agent isn't so much about getting work as taking care of the business, career end of it and adding a bit of legitimacy to you - which is a good thing at the end of the day....

Just my opinion of course... good luck to you


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## Brian Ralston (Sep 20, 2006)

Jay...to know where I am coming from here...know that I was signed with ICM for a while...but failed to renew with them. Although, the feeling was mutual I am sure. I was initially approached by them in a similar fashion to what you describe here. The info here is 1) about what you should do with the demo CD in my opinion and 2) about what you should make sure you know when it comes to that demo CD and what it is really going to do for you at this point. 

Regardless of whether the recipient of the CD is a potential agent or a potential producer/director...I almost guarantee you they will skim through the tracks, listening to the first 12-15 seconds of the first few tracks of the CD...and then they will skip around somewhere in the middle...then the end. Also...I am 97.5% sure it will be listened to in a car during rush hour traffic while some idiot driver cuts them off while driving and trying to merge on the freeway. And, then the office will call with info on that new gig for Gregson-Williams...so they will turn down the volume, but not stop the CD. Then when the call is over, they will turn the volume back up...but then they will already be home. The CD will stay in the car. Then...they will begin to listen to it on the way to work the next morning...but it will resume play at the last track...and they will then eject the disc, go into work...and if you are lucky (or because they know and respect what your wife does), they will either have their assistent (or themselves) email you saying what they thought. Know that this way of doing it is not because of anything about you...it is just how they usually do it...and nothing will be different.

****Of course...know full well that the first question an agent will get when trying to pitch you as a composer will be "well...what's he done?&quòƒ#   E_Hƒ#   E_Iƒ#   E_Jƒ#   E_Kƒ#   E_Lƒ#   E_Mƒ#   E_Nƒ#   E_Oƒ#   E_Pƒ#   E_Qƒ#   E_Rƒ#   E_Sƒ#   E_Tƒ#   E_Uƒ#   E_Vƒ#   E_Wƒ$   E_Xƒ$   E_Yƒ$   E_Zƒ$   E_[ƒ$   E_\ƒ$   E_]ƒ$   E_^ƒ$   E__ƒ$   E_`ƒ$   E_aƒ$   E_bƒ$   E_cƒ$   E_dƒ$   E_eƒ$   E_fƒ$   E_gƒ$   E_hƒ$   E_iƒ$   E_jƒ$   E_kƒ$   E_lƒ$   E_mƒ$   E_nƒ$   E_oƒ$   E_pƒ$   E_qƒ$   E_rƒ$   E_sƒ$   E_tƒ$   E_uƒ$   E_vƒ$   E_wƒ$   E_xƒ$   E_yƒ$   E_zƒ$   E_{ƒ$   E_|ƒ$   E_}ƒ$   E_~ƒ$   E_ƒ$   E_€ƒ$   E_ƒ$   E_‚ƒ$   E_ƒƒ$   E_„ƒ$   E_…ƒ$   E_†ƒ$   E_‡ƒ$   E_ˆƒ$   E_‰ƒ$   E_Šƒ$   E_‹ƒ$   E_Œƒ$   E_ƒ$   E_Žƒ$   E_ƒ$   E_ƒ$   E_‘ƒ$   E_’ƒ$   E_“ƒ$   E_”ƒ$   E_•ƒ$   E_–ƒ$   E_—ƒ$   E_˜ƒ$   E_™ƒ$   E_šƒ$   E_›ƒ$   E_œƒ$   E_ƒ$   E_žƒ$   E_Ÿƒ$   E_ ƒ$   E_¡ƒ$   E_¢ƒ$   E_£ƒ$   E_¤ƒ$   E_¥ƒ$   E_¦ƒ$   E_§ƒ$   E_¨ƒ$   E_©ƒ$   E_ªƒ$   E_«ƒ$   E_¬ƒ$   E_­ƒ$   E_®ƒ$   E_¯ƒ$   E_°ƒ$   E_±ƒ$   E_²ƒ$   E_³ƒ$   E_´ƒ$   E_µƒ$   E_¶ƒ$   E_·              òƒ$   E_¹ƒ$   E_ºƒ$   E_»ƒ$   E_¼ƒ$   E_½ƒ$   E_¾ƒ$   E_¿ƒ$   E_Àƒ$   E_Áƒ$   E_Âƒ$   E_Ãƒ$   E_Äƒ$   E_Åƒ$   E_Æƒ$   E_Çƒ$   E_Èƒ$   E_Éƒ$   E_Êƒ$   E_Ëƒ$   E_Ìƒ$   E_Íƒ$   E_Îƒ$   E_Ïƒ$   E_Ðƒ$   E_Ñƒ$   E_Òƒ$   E_Óƒ$   E_Ôƒ$   E_Õƒ$   E_Öƒ$   E_×ƒ$   E_Øƒ$   E_Ùƒ$   E_Úƒ$   E_Ûƒ$   E_Üƒ$   E_Ýƒ$   E_Þƒ$   E_ßƒ$   E_àƒ$   E_áƒ$   E_âƒ$   E_ãƒ$   E_äƒ$   E_åƒ$   E_æƒ$   E_çƒ$   E_èƒ$   E_éƒ$   E_êƒ$   E_ëƒ$   E_ìƒ$   E_íƒ$   E_îƒ$   E_ïƒ$   E_ðƒ$   E_ñƒ$   E_òƒ$   E_óƒ$   E_ôƒ$   E_õƒ$   E_öƒ$   E_÷ƒ$   E_øƒ$   E_ùƒ%   E` ƒ%   E`ƒ%   E`ƒ%   E`ƒ%   E`ƒ%   E`ƒ%   E`ƒ%   E`ƒ%   E`ƒ%   E`	ƒ%   E`
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## Thonex (Sep 20, 2006)

jeffc @ Wed Sep 20 said:


> I think the best time to hit them with the demo is when you have a potential gig on the table and you take it to them. This gives them incentive to 'sign' you, based on negotiating that deal. A demo with no offer of work might give them more reason to drag their feet on you.



Great advice!

Although be careful... if the agent is a schmuck, they may try to scarf that "potential gig" away from you and give it to one of their regular composers.

After all... this is Hollywood... :smile:


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## drasticmeasures (Sep 20, 2006)

My advice, for both Agents and Prods/dir's, is to go for the throat and get out. 
Don't have 20 tracks if you can say what you need to in 12. I personally only go around this by, say, having my "demo", but then also including a soundtrack release, etc. I believe that this is especially true for the "bigger dogs" - I'm guessing to bet that your talking about GSA or SMA.

Also, for reals - the will most likely listen to the first 10-15 seconds of each track, so don't include a cue only becuase you like what happens at :45 seconds (I think we're all guilty of that at some point).

And finally, pull a couple of tricks if you can. If you want, give me a ring and I'll tell you my experience.


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## wonshu (Sep 20, 2006)

This whole thing brings up one of the biggest problems of music: it requires time! It's not like a graphic design where you look at it and "get" what it's about.

You need to actually free your mind to listen to music and hopyfully let the emotional content reach you. And very few people that do business are actually good at that.

But I agree, get your points out quickly in the beginning and have longer tracks requiring more listening in the end.


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## kid-surf (Sep 21, 2006)

I wanna start by saying thanks guys. Very helpful! Great food for thought.

But first I'd like to throw out this question then respond more fully in my next post to what's been said.


*Question:* If I'm going for the throat, how do I do that without ending up with a very chopped up "demo". I, in fact, do have a cue that "pops" at about 45 second and if they miss that section they'd be missing a big part of what I do as a composer. (I mean, several of my cues don't start off with guns blazing, several have the best sections in the middle)


I was thinking of starting off with a, sort of, "orchestral cue". A cue that, to me, plays like "hip/modern" orchestral, just to establish from the get go that I'm not just about beats/hipness and such. From there going into a very modern high energy/hip cue, then again after that with the cue I referred to above [that pops half way through it]. Then continuing on with my, IMO, more modern/hip style of composing. Yet, I'm trying to show that I can do more than just be "hip". I'm trying to show various layers without sounding schizophrenic.

Hmmm.... ok I'll think about scaling it back a bit. But don't you guys feel that you need "two" cues in a similar style to say "this isn't a fluke... this is my style for that genre". For example, 'one' of my horror cues out of context may sound like "what the fuck is this?" next to everything else. The thing is, my music isn't necessarily "on the nose" in all cases. Some people have their cues listed by genre on their site. Not me. I feel I don't fit into those categories as neatly, not as neatly as some. And that's what I like about my music. It's probably a detriment on this lower level but I feel that it'll pay off eventually (although, I'm in the process of writing more stuff that is neat and tidy, category filers in other words, but that's another story)

Anyway.. *Nathan*, I'll give you a call. I'd like to hear your thoughts. Thanks.


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## Hannes_F (Sep 21, 2006)

kid-surf @ Thu Sep 21 said:


> I, in fact, do have a cue that "pops" at about 45 second and if they miss that section they'd be missing a big part of what I do as a composer. (I mean, several of my cues don't start off with guns blazing, several have the best sections in the middle)



What about ... fade in ... fade out?


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## kid-surf (Sep 21, 2006)

Thanks guys.....

I like knowing what people "really" think. I'm pretty straight up that way. So I do appreciate when others are the same way. So thanks... 

Well, I'll start by saying that I wouldn't say I am naive to what we all are facing (we: the people with no "studio" credits). I know the game essentially, that they (the studio) could give a fuck about those who have no studio credits. I know no agent is gonna do crap for me when they could be booking people that have an established fee that are 100x (1,000,000x?) easier to book than someone with no studio credits... right, clients that will help them buy that new Porsche. I get all that.... I get where I fit into this picture. That's never been ambiguous to me.


I also get that what my wife does is totally different. True, on her end they CAN take someone from nothing and "make them" almost out of the thin air. Sure, sometimes I do wish it were that way for composers too since I see what some people make and know what they didn't make a year or two ago. And since I see people with a lot less experience in their craft than I have with mine and yet the studios are tripping over themselves to work with these people... I know it's never gonna be that way for us since it's the 'post' stage of the game where most everyone involved in the film has turned into a scared freak of the person they were on the front end where they were all confident the film was actually 'good', and now aren't sure what it is but hope the composer can save it. So, right, why would a studio take a chance on "me"? Agreed, they wouldn't. I know where I stand in the grand scheme. Not to be condescending, but when your wife is an agent (at the top agency) you tend to get a pretty good insight on the hollywood game by way of association.



True, we are all up against ridiculous odds to make ANY sort of impression on anyone when you need a studio credit to get a studio credit. Yet, I believe in myself. So, I fight on. I'm not easily discouraged or broken down. Hollywood is a game to me, and I sincerely believe I'll make the right moves and that I'll get to where I intend to go. It takes time. That's ok.... I'm willing to play this game as it stands.




*Jeff --* thanks for weighing in. I had one particular (safe) orchestral track up front. After reading your response and thinking about it I feel you're right, it does play a lot hip-er to move it back or out all together. Generally I'm a "hip" type of composer anyway, so that is what I'm hoping to get across. I agree with your take on timing. Unfortunately, I just finished something. And my next thing is already set. So at this time I don't have anything they'd be interested in, in that regard. (Like *Thonex* said, maybe they'd try to bump me anyway.)

As for what an agent "could" do for me. Thanks for taking the time to say that. I agree with you. My thoughts were always that it would be mostly cosmetic in that why would they fight for "me". I don't have a "hollywood fee", nobody knows who I am. I know that even in the remote chance that someone did sign me that I'd still be in the same hustle I am now. And that they'd think of me as "hip pocket" regardless. Yeah, I know there's no gold at the end of the rainbow in agent land for composers who aren't on a "buzzy" film. It's entirely different than what my wife is able to do for her clients. 


*Bri --* I hear you. And yep, I think get the code. And just to reiterate; that whole situation, I don't have any ill feelings towards you. That's the game and I lost that time. I hope everything works out for you in that regard. I don't like to see ANY composer end up in a crapy situation. I have a certain allegiance to composers more so than anyone else in the industry since I know how bad it sucks to have crapy things happen to you that aren't entirely within your control (and sometimes it's maybe best to play the political game and take 100 percent of the blame even though it wasn't entirely your fault the music sucked -- if you catch the meaning of my code). Yeah, we composers face seemingly the worst of it since for us it's not entirely about the music and so much to do with the political aspect and the guessing game. (If I misread your code, my apologies --- I'm just trying to be real about all this w/o offending people)

My wife --- that is one thing that makes me initially wonder if I should put more music on there and makes me wonder if this person 'will' actually take the time to listen to it. I know the typical scenario you've described, since I know agents pretty well (a friend of mine is a music agent). But I find that usually when someone tells me they're going to listen to my work they give me the impression that they've listened to it in full (not with a magnifying glass, but you know, not skimming past most everything either). Maybe they are lying to me, or maybe they're being truthful and it's got something to do with who/where my wife is? In fact, a few people have said they've played it over and over in their office. Seriously. I don't know why they'd say that if it weren't true. But in all honesty, I'm going to try and get away with anything 'above and beyond' that I can. Meaning -- if my wife is in some way leverage I might as well us that for what it's worth. Then again maybe I'm taken less seriously because of where she is... who knows? In fact, I sometimes don't mention it to certain (unsigned) directors because they are so whacky at times. Some newer directors don't even understand the significance it would mean to their filmmaking career if they were signed. As amazing as that is.... (their sights are almost entirely on the festivals/distro, and yet it's like, "ummm, have you ever heard of ____ agency? Those are some of the people you're trying to impress. And if you get signed there you'll be working on a studio film next time out of the gate. Does that mean anything to you? Or is your film so great you don't need any help?" 

Anyway....

The main reason I submit stuff to people on that level (and I don't do it often because I know the game, more or less) is I figure it can't hurt me if they simply "know who I am". A class-A director (an acquaintance whom I turn to from time time) suggested that I be in the face of as many people as possible. So that's what I try to do where applicable. I do that so that when they hear of me "later" maybe it'll ring a bell, maybe they'll look again. The other reason is I can never rule anything out in this town. You just never know. What I feel sure of is that "something" will happen as a result of my wife's connections coupled with me kicking fucking ass musically, getting better, and better, etc. I know I will, and have. My thought is that, eventually you'll end up in the right hands if your music is "great" enough and you are connected enough. Not easy to do, but possible for anyone who believes they "have it" and then delivers the goods (I fucked up once, it's never going to happen again). If you separate yourself from the pack, eventually you'll find the gig that gets noticed/buzz. That's how people "make it" to the upper levels, IMO. Not by writing the same ole shit everyone is tired of.... (not to say anyone here is, that's just my general view)

One thing I'd like to add is that --- true there's the old saying, "don't call us, we'll call you". I know that sentiment. But there's also the part of me that knows that if something amazing was presented to my wife (or anyone she works with) that she would at least "track it" if she saw something there but knew she couldn't sell them 'as is'. So I don't think it's entirely the best move to wait around to be introduced. That's basically what I look at these situations as, simply, me being introduced.

Now for some conjecture.....


....And then my wife tells me about her meeting today where Jimmm Carrryy (name spelled wrong on purpose) gets on the phone and they all welcome him to the family. I find the contrast amusing at times.


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## kid-surf (Sep 21, 2006)

Thomas ---


Well, you are the man, so your reputation proceeds you.   Unlike me. :mrgreen:

But really, no demos ever? So you never spec for anything either. People just come to you and hire you because they know your work. No agents or managers involved in finding work for you?

I like your idea of two CD's ... I'll ponder that. I think what I also need to do really is talk to this music agent friend of mine first and see what they say as well. (different person).

As far as the "melodic" stuff. Well, some of my stuff is cool because it's not melodic. My gut tells me that this is one of my strong aspects. Our music is really very different. I'm not right for many of the films some of you guys are right for, and maybe vice versa?


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## kid-surf (Sep 21, 2006)

wonshu @ Wed Sep 20 said:


> This whole thing brings up one of the biggest problems of music: it requires time! It's not like a graphic design where you look at it and "get" what it's about.
> 
> You need to actually free your mind to listen to music and hopyfully let the emotional content reach you. And very few people that do business are actually good at that.



Yep, it's amazing how many people that make decisions don't really understand music. I don't mean enough to write it, but they don't give it much value. IMO


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## kid-surf (Sep 21, 2006)

Hannes_F @ Thu Sep 21 said:


> kid-surf @ Thu Sep 21 said:
> 
> 
> > I, in fact, do have a cue that "pops" at about 45 second and if they miss that section they'd be missing a big part of what I do as a composer. (I mean, several of my cues don't start off with guns blazing, several have the best sections in the middle)
> ...




Yeah, that's an option... feels so cheap though.


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## Hermitage59 (Sep 21, 2006)

Interesting thread. Kid, it's about psychology of the listener too. The fellow who's doing the listening is busy, at least that's what he perceives as part of the job. So he has to look busy, feel busy, etc. When he or she hears a cue, the first ten or fifteen seconds are relevant, after that, nope. Because that's the way agents work. Soundbites, snippets, short interviews. It's about their 10%, and if they're chewing up time listening for that killer moment 40 seconds in, then it's a perception they could be doing something else to make money. 
So writing 15 or 20 second cues, and saying what you want to say fairly quickly makes sense. 
Although my situation's a little different these days (I get to be choosy, and concentrate more on my own stuff), i used to write for radio, ads, and short film quite a bit, and i'm with Thomas on this one. 

As soon as you present a cd with your stuff on it with the hope of getting a shot at the title, you hand the psychological edge to the agent, and he gets to make power decisions about you, like yes or no. (give him a cd full of stuff, and he's standing up and you're sitting down. ) Power brokers, whatever the field, always try to put the visitor at a lower level than them. You're sitting, he's standing. You get a small armchair or a low lounge, he's got the fullon, gas powered, all singing, all dancing, executive chair that makes him look bigger, taller and smarter than you. He shakes hands, and turns his hand so yours is under his, knowing you're there trying to get a gig. He holds the cards. And with a cd full of your hard sweated work, he gets to let you know how important you are to him. Notice how anything you hand to someone, who's into this game, gets casually put on a pile or desk, as if it's of little consequence? That's usually deliberate, designed instinctively to reinforce the message that you need the agent, not the other way round. You may think the reverse is true. But agents are agents. If they're not flogging composers to studios, they'll find something else to trade, and it's an important part of their working psyche, that they keep up the appearance of the 'facilitator', and the one in charge, who gets to make decisions, as if the world would stop otherwise.
(I generalise here. I met two good agents in my lifetime, both of whom had a lot of class, and didn't have to play such a hard game. Rare.)

Writing to make an impact in a short time is great practise.
Think about Ads on TV. How many of them work musically? Why? How long's the ad?
Isn't that what you're doing? Making an ad to entice an agent into promoting your work? If you turned down the sound on the TV, and wrote your own soundtrack for a 15 second ad, what would you do? And why would you sell the same product 16 times in a row on the TV? By the time the armchair slob gets to number 3 or 4, he's reaching for the remote control, and another beer. He's tuned out. So in a working practise situation, 10 to 15 seconds is about it. Anything after that is almost wasting your time, because the listener's tuned out, and looking at brunettes in convertibles by then.

So the guy sitting in his car on the freeway listens to ads. In between his favourite BeeGee's album, or crooning away to Lionel Ritchie thinking no one can hear or see him, he's getting washed over with 15 second campaigns trying to get him interested in a product. Same with agents. Same scenario on the freeway. By the very nature of his 'job' he thinks in snippets. So he wants to hear it straight away, or near enough. (At least in my experience with agents.) It's not always musically sensible, but most agents aren't musically sensible anyway. They're focused on the next 10%, and don't give a damn about the love and attention that went into your cue.

I'm sorry to sound a little cynical here, but it's my experience not only with music agents, but agents in other fields too, that their prime directive is to look after themselves first. Composers, etc., are just a means to an end for them, and little more. If your work enables an agent to get his 10%, and he gets bigger chunks of 10% as a result of your labours, then you get the gig. If you're the flavour of the month, and can produce the goods, then things are good. As soon as someone else becomes flavour of the month then the prime directive rules, and you don't get phones calls.

Kid, if this agent knows his stuff, then he will decide in the first few seconds whether he can sell your stuff to a customer or not. You won't really need to spend a lot of time developing long themes, and taking a lot of time to get to that killer moment. That's for you as a muso. The agent's listening from a business perspective, and what he can get out of your talents.

Just my two roubles worth from someone who is currently negotiating the challenging minefield that is the Russian Film and Music Industry, and learning the 'local' game. They're a lot more direct and pragmatic here, so the rules, although pretty well the same, are presented in a different way. I've been approached by two agents who have 'insisted' i work through them, to the exclusion of others. It's only a stroke of good fortune, and carefully built relationships with two producers, and a director, that i've been confident enough to refuse, no matter the 'consequences described.'
My friends have more powerful friends than the agents do, lol.

Kid, i genuinely wish you very best of good fortune with this, and hope you get what you want.

Regards,

Alex.


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## Hannes_F (Sep 21, 2006)

kid-surf @ Thu Sep 21 said:


> Hannes_F @ Thu Sep 21 said:
> 
> 
> > What about ... fade in ... fade out?
> ...



What I would do: Get together a nice collection of your favorite snippets and regard them as a collage. Spread them in a sequencer and shove them forth and back until you have a nice dramaturgy. Let the whole thing be colorful and diversified. Then improvise between the snippets with piano, synth, percussion, noise. Make a happening of the record, try to catch an authentic "live" mood  .

I did that once and people told me that was my best piece so far. Really.


Hannes


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## Ashermusic (Sep 21, 2006)

IMHO back when we were dealing with cassettes you had to be careful not to put too many selections on the tape because it was a pita for the listener to get to the next one after he had heard enough of a given cue. With CDs this is not really a problem so choose as many as you need to show your range. Don't put on a bunch however that show the same style ability.

I have had 3 different agents. They were all fine at negotiaitng deals when I got the gig. None of them ever got me a gig.

One said to me frankly that all an agent could really do well was advance someone's career once they got hot.


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## Mike Greene (Sep 21, 2006)

Thonex @ Wed Sep 20 said:


> Although be careful... if the agent is a schmuck, they may try to scarf that "potential gig" away from you and give it to one of their regular composers.
> 
> After all... this is Hollywood... :smile:


That ain't no joke either. That exact thing happened recently with a writer friend of mine.

A producer wanted to hire my friend (I'll call him Joe) as a staff writer for a TV show, so Joe directed him to his agent. The producer called the agent and asked for a couple of Joe's scripts. The agent told the producer that Joe's probably not the best guy for this job, and he should instead consider this other client of hers!

(I can't remember the agent's exact name, but I think her last name might have been "Surf?" :mrgreen: )

Anyway, the weird part was the agent was in major hot water, but now Joe had a predicament: to fire or keep her. The reasons for firing are obvious. But there were reasons for keeping her, too. First, even for writers, getting an agent isn't easy. But more importantly, since the agent was busted, she now had an incentive to redeem herself. So she's actually more valuable than she was before! Is Hollywood sleazy or what!?!

This all happened this summer and I don't know what he decided.

- Mike Greene

P.S. - I agree there's a lot of great reading in this thread!


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## Hermitage59 (Sep 21, 2006)

Thomas_J @ Thu Sep 21 said:


> > Anyway.. By "thematic" I mean tracks that are full of identity and character, and don't wander around aimlessly. You just wanna get right down to the point.
> 
> 
> Agreed, completely. I started out practising with ads taped from the telly, as i was playing in orchestras and writing concert music, and getting to the point was a merry wander round hill and dale before a big climax, or several, lol.
> ...


Great advice.
The golden rule applies here too. KISS. (Keep it simple sir.) Muso's music is something we appreciate in each other as colleagues, but, sorry to say, the average listener has the attention span of a gnat, and has little chance or enthusiasm for demystifying complexity in music. The average pop tune is so simple as to be banal to those who aspire to greater creative pursuit, but for the average joe blow, it's about the limit of their choice of understanding. 
And Thomas you made a brilliant point here too. Never the same stuff twice, or it sounds like verse chorus verse, instead of alternate ideas. 
It's worth remembering the average beerfest fan hears the melody (if it's catchy) and the drum and/or bass. He wants to sing one wildly out of tune, while tapping out of time to the other, lol. 
Your average agent isn't so far removed from that beerfest fan, when he's listening to submissions. (Catchy tune, interesting rhythm, etc..Can i make 10% out of this, is this guy easy to work with, does he have brown socks to match the jesus sandals or his teeth, maybe that difficult gay director will think he's cute with that 60's ponytail, does he own a jacket, a shirt with a collar, or real shoes with laces, damn he looks green so maybe i'll try for 12% and throw in a drink to look 'generous',etc,etc,......and the big one, will this guy's music buy ME a ferrari, and make me look like the most successful agent in town?.......) 

Interesting discussion!

Regards,

Alex.


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## kid-surf (Sep 22, 2006)

Thanks for the thoughts guys...

(hadda take yesterday off -- went surfing, good waves, my bro and I were both on fire [if I do say so myself  ] so it was nice to get away from these fucking computers... that continually call out my name like the slot machine on that Twilight Zone episode)

Anyway.....


I agree on the psychology aspect. In my opinion it is probably the biggest factor in getting jobs.

* by Alex ----- "So writing 15 or 20 second cues, and saying what you want to say fairly quickly makes sense. "*

I'm not sure I agree with that. 15 seconds goes by really, really quick. I recently did some logos and bumpers in that time range and found out (under pressure) how difficult it is to make a "melodic/interesting" piece of music in that amount of time. I just can't get behind presenting "film" people with cues that short. While I don't think 5 minute cues are right either, I feel it's got to be long enough to show a skill at "development", "pacing", and so forth. The aspects necessary to underscore. Things you can't do in 15 seconds. But I do think it's tricky finding the right length of cue that will be long enough but not too long. (and perhaps ways to edit cues to pop more -- I'm thinking of editing some cues dow so it's the meat of the cue but still plays as a developing piece of music that is not a snippet)


*Agents---* it's hard for me to view them as power trippers or power hungry, or inherently evil and conniving and so forth. Since I'm married to one.  More so, I feel it's about them not wanting to waste time and not having the time to waste anyway. So I think they are just doing their job. (then again most agents I know are at the best company in the world, so they may be a little more chill than some of the other companies trying to catch up to a company like that --- so I need to keep my bias in check I suppose)

*It's not always musically sensible, but most agents aren't musically sensible anyway. They're focused on the next 10%, and don't give a damn about the love and attention that went into your cue. *


The BEST agents out there actually DO care about their clients, they also care a great deal for their clients work. (again I said the "best" agents out there). Why do I feel that way? Because having a great client base reflects who THEY are. Sure they want to make money but they also want client they are passionate about and believe in. Because it's a hell of a lot easier to SELL someone you actually believe is GREAT. And you get more satisfaction from closing a deal that way. So it's not just about the money with the best agents. Surely it's just about the money to some, and that's not an agent I would care to have represent me. 

Going back to the psychology thing an the body language thing (two aspects I firmly believe in). Well, "I" can tell when someone is bullshitting ME too. So if someone is "agenting me" as my wife and I call it, I'm gonna know it. I don't like "snap snap" agents (as my wife and I call them). I respond better to people like my wife who are sincere, good hearted people that aren't lying to you. It's fairly easy to tell the difference IMO.


*"I'm sorry to sound a little cynical here, but it's my experience not only with music agents, but agents in other fields too, that their prime directive is to look after themselves first. Composers, etc., are just a means to an end for them, and little more. If your work enables an agent to get his 10%, and he gets bigger chunks of 10% as a result of your labours, then you get the gig. If you're the flavour of the month, and can produce the goods, then things are good. As soon as someone else becomes flavour of the month then the prime directive rules, and you don't get phones calls. "*

I don't think that's being cynical. That's your experience with them so that's what it is to you. My experience is slightly different. But I'm still aware that ART is not the bottom line here. That's clear to me, and I'm ok with that. The thing is, I believe that for many agents (and many execs) they WISH it were about ART but realize it can't be. More to the point they know that "ART" is fluke in Hollywood and that it's a stroke of good future if it ever happens for them. It's such a long shot.


*Kid, i genuinely wish you very best of good fortune with this, and hope you get what you want. *


Thanks for you thoughts, Alex, and for taking the time to snare them to type for us all to consider. There are many things we agree on, and some that are maybe not eye to eye, and that's ok. I wish you good fortune for all your endeavors as well (just, don't ever sign with Endeavor  )


*Hannes----------* Good idea....  I thought of that myself. Kill two birds with one cue sorta thing. They could listen to one, say, one minute cue and be done. Knowing entirely who you are in 60 seconds or less. :D


*Jay---* Great name btw!  Yeah I agree in part with that. That it's easier to skip tracks on CD. I've been thinking for a couple days about this now, and have spoke to a few friends out in the world about this. For me that is what I'm contemplating, what to put on the disc to show "who I am" and have it pop, and play quickly enough to keep them but not so fast they have to ask me for a more. I really don't believe that they want to waste "more" time with me than the one time. So in spite of what others have said, after more thought I don't believe trying to entice them into a second CD or doing two CD's is the way to go. Thing is, I know what "type" of composer I am, I know who my market is, and I know how I fit into that market and how "I'd" sell myself. I am a "hip" composer as I've said, and have a 'package' in that regard that is real/legit. I write hip modern cues, I look and dress hip, I was a model, I surf at a high level, was in rock bands and so forth. (stuff that is naturally who I am). I know how to act in industry situations, I give good meetings, people seem to want to be my friend and be around me, and so forth. -------- I don't say that to be arrogant, just that I know how I should be sold and what the attraction to me would be/is. 

The other thing is -- I'm not interested in being the "guy who tries to provide people with every genre ever created". That's a great way to say to people "I have no fucking clue who I am, I have NO sensibly, I have NO voice. I am NOT unique. I'm desperate, I'm trying to be everyone and therefore are no one". So, it's very important to me that I don't fall into that trap. The catch is... being that guy right now, the guy who is 'jack of all master of none' (when you are nobody) that helps you/us/whoever land MORE of these shitty films. But what about long term? I don't want to get stuck doing shitty films forever. I'd rather do 2 a year that I really believe in So that means I'm not going to even attempt to write music for say, a Disney animation film. I think knowing you're strengths is important to potential agents. I feel they'll think it's a huge waste of their time to listen to work that is trying to be everything yet turns out to be the muzak version of everything. So the pitch for me would essentially be "if you need COOL music he may be right for your film, whether it's Dark, Edgy, Horror, Poignant, Sad, High Energy. He's a hip modern composer". That's how I should be sold.... (well, that's who I am today, surly it'll change as time goes by)

Not everyone will like my stuff, but it's legit and sincere. I try to stay very conscious of where I'm headed.


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## kid-surf (Sep 22, 2006)

*Thomas----* Good point about the body language. It's something I highly believe in. Body language tells me instantly if a director likes a cue, whether I'm saying the wrong things to someone I just met and so forth. For instance, if a director puts his hand on the back of his neck while listening to playback of a cue for the first time... well, he friggn HATES that cue.  Stuff like that, yes... 

Agreed, it's powerful....

Thematic --- Ok I get you. Yeah, I don't wish to put music that wonders around aimlessly on the disc. (does anyone like that sort of music? Just checking. :D). But seriously, I get your point. I like your point about universally appreciable. Definitely agreed -- it's the "butts in seats" theory. The tricky part for my music is that I am a specific kind of composer that is aiming for films that aren't always universally appreciable. So the trick is to figure out a way to put those cues on where they 'get' what type of film it's for. In other words -- Carter Burwell has representation and he's got some pretty "out there" cues for films that are pretty out there. 

Your game is something I'm interested in doing (again) for this CD. I've actually done that in the past to narrow down selections. But with 31 cues I feel most here are right when they say this dic is way too long like that. Psychologically that looks like "here's way too much work for you" to an agent. I'm gonna get it down to about 12 cues running about 20 minutes. So, I think it'll be a very strong disc with less chance of becoming monotonous and/or ambiguous. So no, I don't think it's too elaborate your idea. I think it's a great idea because we (since we wrote the music) can't possibly have the same perspective non music creators may have. After all, they are our audience......... and check writers..... 

I also agree with you about not putting on it cues that would normally impress composers. I agree that they can play 'too complex' for the average listener --meaning--director/agent/music supervisor. Also agreed on the 'jack of all trades master of none'. The good thing here is that I know who I am and what my strengths are. And I don't care to do every genre, that's never been important to me.

*Mike---* interesting story. Well, I do remember my wife telling me about how she totally F'd over some stupid writer (oops did I type that? :D ****disclaimer**** in all honesty my wife hasn't F'd over any writer and has a spectacular reputation, and is highly adored out there in Hollywood-Land. And the reason is probably because she's genuine. Can't tell you how many people have come up to me at events and said "I just love your wife, she's the best, and I'm not just saying that". In other words, may wife has gone pretty far by being "real" and respecting peoples work and so forth. So I see that you don't have to be a slime ball to make it in Hollywood)

As far as that person's agent. True, that writer does have good incentive to stay with them, now. If it were me I'd probably hang tight to see how it was made up to me. 

As an aside --- My wife and I are friends with some of her clients. We'll go out to dinner with them, have breakfast on the weekend. One even called us when they gave birth, right along with the rest of their family. It's very personal in some cases. That's how my wife does it..... 'real' relationships. And that's probably why they sign with her, because they sense a real person there. Too bad all agents aren't that way. They should be. 


Life's to fucking precious to become a hollywood robot. I believe there's a way around that fakeness... a way to be a real person yet get to the top. A way to be happy AND be a composer. (sounds like an oxymoron, don't it  )

*Thanks for all of your thoughts... it's been a very interesting read for me too!*


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## Brian Ralston (Sep 22, 2006)

Shortly after I left ICM...I found out my former agent there was escorted out of the building and fired for embezzling money from the company. A LOT of money. I don't know the end result...but it probably involves some sort of 6x6 ft. cement room with bars.

Sucks for him...but I can honestly say...he deserved it. Luckily...nothing of mine was affected. I guess at the time I was there, I was too small to be wrapped up in his scheme.


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## Mike Greene (Sep 22, 2006)

Andrew, that's one messed up story. It's really sad that there are people like that out there, especially when you consider how trusting most composers are. We're easy pickings for the unscrupulous. :evil: 

If you're coming on Tuesday, I'll tell you a story about a sleazeball who took advantage of my trust. I'm suing him so I can't detail it here.


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## PaulR (Sep 22, 2006)

Who are the best agents for filmscore work in Los Angeles these days?

There's a bloke who'll be going there in the future who, in my judgement is brilliant and will become one of your top film writers in years to come - all things being equal. I wouldn't mind having ten of them if I was an agent.


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## Thonex (Sep 22, 2006)

Mike Greene @ Fri Sep 22 said:


> Andrew, that's one messed up story. It's really sad that there are people like that out there, especially when you consider how trusting most composers are. We're easy pickings for the unscrupulous. :evil:
> 
> If you're coming on Tuesday, I'll tell you a story about a sleazeball who took advantage of my trust. I'm suing him so I can't detail it here.



Sure... we'll discuss your strategy over a nice yellow tail role...  

And you're right.... composers typically are trusting and gentle souls who are all too often taken advantage of.

T


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## Brian Ralston (Sep 22, 2006)

I also think that since composers are not unionized...and not allowed to in the states...the deals that are made involving them are widely varried. Writers, directors and actors are all pretty much protected by their guilds as to credit, payment, amount paid, work schedule, etc...

But...composers don't have that formulaic aspect to how their deals should work...so there is a lot of freedom in how an agent and the producers go about negotiating the deal...and dealing with their clients...etc...etc...and I believe it is in small part, a contributing factor to why composers can be taken advantage of so easily.


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## Brian Ralston (Sep 22, 2006)

PaulR @ Fri Sep 22 said:


> Who are the best agents for filmscore work in Los Angeles these days?
> 
> There's a bloke who'll be going there in the future who, in my judgement is brilliant and will become one of your top film writers in years to come - all things being equal. I wouldn't mind having ten of them if I was an agent.



I am telling you Paul. An agent does not build a career. They will want one already established. When he gets to the U.S., the best thing he can do is to focus on building working relationships with directors and producers who will ultimately hire him. He could be the most talented composer in the world...but an agent will not be able to sell him to gigs if he has no industry track record and has not made a good reputation for himself. That will take time. Probably a few years at least after he gets here. 

That being said...

Gorfaine & Schwartz, Sountrack Music Associates, Kraft / Engel (formerly Blue Focus), Kaufmann Agency, Blue Jean Management, The Agency Group (Linda Kordek)


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## PaulR (Sep 22, 2006)

Brian Ralston @ Fri Sep 22 said:


> I am telling you Paul. An agent does not build a career. They will want one already established. When he gets to the U.S., the best thing he can do it to focus on building working relationships with directors and producers who will ultimately hire him. He could be the most talented composer in the world...but and agent will not be able to sell him to gigs if he has no industry track record and has not made a good reputation for himself. That will take time. Probably a few years at least after he gets here.
> 
> Gorfaine & Schwartz, Sountrack Music Associates, Kraft / Engel (formerly Blue Focus), Kaufmann Agency, Blue Jean Management, The Agency Group (Linda Kordek)



Good. Thanks Brian. He's a a Yank - already in the USA. TYhe next Bernard Herrmann. I'm betting on it.


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## kid-surf (Sep 22, 2006)

Andrew --- sorry to hear that, what a dickhead. Well, what comes around goes around. Shitty agents don't last long. The good ones know how to keep EVERYONE happy without fucking people over. The guy had to know you'd find out, then what........... weird?


*For the Record: (in case it was lost in my sea of words)*----- I'm not and have never been "looking" for an agent. I was presented with the opportunity, so I'll investigate it. I have really no thoughts that I'll be signed or even hip pocketed. But if I am, fine. What will I expect if I am? Nada..... maybe some guidance but not a job. 

Agents aren't my main focus. My focus is the relationships I'm building with various directors, producers, music supervisors and such. You know, people who hire you.


Paul --- best of luck to your friend. I agree that it's not going to mean much for him to find an agent. The other thing is that the music is very different here than in Europe. Might even be better for his career to get on some good European films that seem to like a more classically trained old-school type score than to fight it out in popcorn film land (known as Hollywood). Many films here aren't even orchestral..... he may be able to get on a bigger film over then, THEN come back to the US once he gets on a 'buzzy' Euro film. But whatever, not trying to discourage anyone....


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## wonshu (Sep 23, 2006)

gosh, I love this forum! Thanks guys!


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Sep 23, 2006)

kid-surf @ 22/9/2006 said:


> Agents aren't my main focus. My focus is the relationships I'm building with various directors, producers, music supervisors and such. You know, people who hire you.



I'll second that BIG time. Yes, it's good to have an agent, but *contacts/relationships* are much more important.


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## kid-surf (Sep 24, 2006)

Bri -- you still out there? 

If so, a few questions you might have the answer to...


You mention The Agency Group, do they rep composers? Do you know who they have?

Also Blue Jean, don't they just rep like 5 guys? They're good though? Just wondering. i've heard of them but don't know much about them. The seem fairly boutique with only 5 (or so) composers -- or is their client list longer than I realize?

BTW -- one of the big five just sucked up a boutique agency (within the last month or so)

Again, I'm not hunting, just want to be current in my info...


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## Brian Ralston (Sep 24, 2006)

Linda Kordek at The Agency Group represents composers. Jack Smalley had her come to speak with us at USC back when I was there. She has music supervisors and music editors too. But a few composers. It all depends on her vibe with them and whether she feels she can do anything with that particular person or not. This is what their website lists as her client list...but I do not know how updated the list it. 

http://www.theagencygroup.com/agent.asp?region=4&agent=115

Blue Jean represents a few of the guys from the Buffy/Angel camp that I know of. I don't know much about them other than my experience with those guys. Don't know if or how to get under their radar...but the ones who are there seem happy...so I have heard. Yes they are smaller, more boutique...but some people like that. They get more attention that way.


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## kid-surf (Sep 24, 2006)

Thanks for the info....


I think of those two agencies as being more boutique--which is fine. Agreed, it can be better to be the big fish in a small pond. All depends I guess. Pros and Cons in both directions.

I just wasn't aware that The Agency Group had _any_ composers, I thought of them as 'band bookers'.


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## Hermitage59 (Sep 25, 2006)

Some really interesting reading in this thread.

Kid, i have to mention here that i have little to no idea of how the Hollywood system operates. Given the sizable impact HW makes on societies not only in the US, but many other countries too, it's understandable that we tend to focus more on the ins and outs of that particularly film community.

But i've worked in other countries, and in my opinion (and it's ONLY my opinion and personal experience) there is a 'genre' of agent behaviour and conduct that is to a certain extent, generic.
You make the point about your wife being a good agent, and well respected. That's good news, not only for you (obviously, as a proud husband), but for the clients she deals with. And there are others with this 'real' attitude, honest and decent at the same time. I mentioned in my original post that i knew of two. They were good chaps, intent on running successful businesses that worked because of client and contractor satisfaction, and i did quite a bit of work with both of them. They were decent enough to the extent of giving each other work, if they couldn't cover it.

But you're talking about the top 1 or 2%, who have the balance of human decency and business success right. The two decent agents i knew were honest with clients and contractors alike, telling them when it was going to work and when it wasn't. In that scenario, if the agent rang and said, sorry mate, but the client wants to use another chap, then you knew it was genuine, and not a reflection of 'predatorial self interested' behaviour on the part of the agent. And you did get the phone call, not find out about it from others. 

And as you've cited your wife as one of the 'good ones', would she deliberately mislead one composer or contractor over another, or leave one hanging, while she manouvered another into the hot seat? Given the obvious respect you have for her professional abilities, she wouldn't. That puts her in the 1% bracket, and far removed from the average pool of agents who want to be 'number 1' and don't always indulge in building a fair and decent reputation as a means to an end. It's the same here in Russia. The more people i meet, the more fortunate i consider myself that i met the 'good ones' at the beginning. And like you, i've been around long enough to spot the B*lls****ers, so that helps to stay out of the clutches of the sharks, and all the irritating nonsense that goes with dealing with these people.

You and Ned also made the point of the importance of personal relationships, and i agree wholeheartedly with this. Most of my work, particularly in the early days, was with people i'd formed good relationships with, so by the time i came in contact with agents on a more regular basis, i'd been warned about the wankers, and wisely advised about the good ones. 

The future?
Given my particular chunk of experience in the business, (ads, docu's, short films concert, and doing gigs) I would be cautious about using an agent at all. If were starting out again with the experience and knowledge i have now, i'd set up my own little company, and go to work contacting the movers and shakers, either through direct meeting, or distribution of 'REALLY CLASSY' promotional material. Then i'd start doing trade parties, bringing together the right people to have a drink and chat about nothing in particular, getting that all important network together, but most importantly sussing out the good from the bad. (Directors, Producers, etc.) And i'd research this first, finding out who has the cash, who's the decision maker, which films they've done, etc.......
I'm also fortunate to be in a position now where i can pick and choose what i want to do, so my russia experiences are interesting, instead of being essential for survival.

And finally something i did a few years ago that i still smile about, and may provide some amusement for others. 
I was approached by an agent to do a series of short promotional and educational films for an big multinational industrial company. (I was recommended by another agency who didn't do this kind of work) 
Anyway, this agent came with a reputation for chopping and changing people with little notice, and often without payment. I knew the industrial company that wanted the work done, and the work looked to be really profitable.
So i told the agent he'd have to supply me a CV of his experience and reputation with contactable references, and proven suitable financial stability before i'd consider his request. He was stunned by this request, and embarked on a rant exholling the virtues of his ego, telling me i'd 'never work in this town again.', blah, blah, blah.......
He then made the mistake of telling of my outrageous behaviour to associates in other agencies, and foolishly on his part, the client in question.
A week later, i got a knock on the door from the publicity manager of the industrial company asking if i could spare a moment. (A mutual friend and associate had suggested to the company they contact me direct.) The upshot was, i got the gig, and quite a few more from other agencies i'd never worked with, who considered my demand for a CV from one of the 'bad ones' a thoroughly amusing and sensible thing to do. (The appearance of professionalism is important to clients too.) 

Justice doesn't happen often in what we do as creative contractors, but it tastes really good when it occurs.

Regards,

Alex.


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