# Combining convolution and algorithmic reverb



## Flux (Apr 4, 2016)

I've been using QL Spaces exclusively on my pieces, and it has worked for me so far. However, on this piece I'm working on with strings and piano, I'm having a hard time bringing out the piano with the melody and having the strings sit more in the back. I've read a bit here that combining Spaces with something like Vahalla room or UAD Plate 140 can be perfect, but I'm not entirely sure how to combine the two effectively. Could someone explain the idea of combining these two different reverbs?


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## Ashermusic (Apr 4, 2016)

Here is what I do with EXACTLY that Spaces-Plate 140 combo:

Each orchestral section goes to busses (one for high strings, one for low strings, one for high brass, one for mid brass, one for low brass,etc.) and each of those sends to a bus with a separate QL Spaces for it. ALL the instrument busses send to another bus with the Plate 140.


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## Ashermusic (Apr 4, 2016)

BTW, when you want to have the strings sit more back in the mix, a little UAD Roland Dimension D is perfect for it. Unfortunately, if you did not buy it previously you cannot now do so now as UA and Roland apparently had a parting of the ways. There may be a version from a competitor though.


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## Flux (Apr 4, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> Here is what I do with EXACTLY that Spaces-Plate 140 combo:
> 
> Each orchestral section goes to busses (one for high strings, one for low strings, one for high brass, one for mid brass, one for low brass,etc.) and each of those sends to a bus with a separate QL Spaces for it. ALL the instrument busses send to another bus with the Plate 140.



Thanks for the reply, Asher! So would Spaces be used to create the "hall" effect, and Plate 140 would be used for the tail to give the illusion of distance between sections? Would you have a separate bus with Plate 140 for each section? I will probably be using Vahalla Room because of price, but I'm assuming I can accomplish a similar effect with that.


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## Ashermusic (Apr 4, 2016)

Flux said:


> Thanks for the reply, Asher! So would Spaces be used to create the "hall" effect, and Plate 140 would be used for the tail to give the illusion of distance between sections? Would you have a separate bus with Plate 140 for each section? I will probably be using Vahalla Room because of price, but I'm assuming I can accomplish a similar effect with that.



Well I don't think of it that way. I think of it as using a convolution verb for putting the instruments in a realistic space while the algorithmic verb gives it more "breathing" , gluing together, and gloss. Only 1 instance of the Plate 140.


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## Flux (Apr 4, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> Well I don't think of it that way. I think of it as using a convolution verb for putting the instruments in a realistic space while the algorithmic verb gives it more "breathing" , gluing together, and gloss. Only 1 instance of the Plate 140.



So when you use Spaces, do you do more than just use the instrument specific presets to put it in a realistic space? I know Spaces is very intuitive and very good "out of the box", but I feel like I'm not using it to its full potential by just choosing a preset and adjusting the level on the sends, especially when I can't seem to successfully put instruments in the back of the room with Spaces.


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## Ashermusic (Apr 4, 2016)

Flux said:


> So when you use Spaces, do you do more than just use the instrument specific presets to put it in a realistic space? I know Spaces is very intuitive and very good "out of the box", but I feel like I'm not using it to its full potential by just choosing a preset and adjusting the level on the sends.



I do use the presets, but I usually roll off some of the lows with the built in filtering.

I think many people overthink this stuff personally.


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## Flux (Apr 4, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> I do use the presets, but I usually roll off some of the lows with the built in filtering.
> 
> I think many people overthink this stuff personally.



I guess I'm just having trouble getting the feeling of the piano being close with the strings in the back of the room, and I read all these things about ER, IR, etc, so I was just curious how people use the also + convo combo to accomplish this.


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## Ashermusic (Apr 4, 2016)

I think that has more to do with library choices then reverb, but I could be wrong.


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## Flux (Apr 4, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> I think that has more to do with library choices then reverb, but I could be wrong.



I am using Cinematic Strings 2 and Pearl Concert Grand. I've been using the mixed mic on CS2, and I haven't really touched the piano preset other than changing the action of the keys to be slightly heavier. I guess I should mess around with the close mic on the piano and the different mic positions on the strings and just trial and error until I find something that I'm satisfied with.


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## milesito (Apr 4, 2016)

Valhalla room will help you as well. I use it along with the spaces presets and have managed to easily put string that are too present further back.


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## milesito (Apr 4, 2016)

milesito said:


> Valhalla room will help you as well. I use it along with the spaces presets and have managed to easily put string that are too present further back.


By the way try not using the mixed mic, try the mid stage mic instead.


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## Flux (Apr 4, 2016)

milesito said:


> Valhalla room will help you as well. I use it along with the spaces presets and have managed to easily put string that are too present further back.



Could you elaborate a little more on how this is setup in your template? Do you send each individual reverb bus to their own Valhalla Room bus?

I guess my main question is how people use Valhalla Room or any algorithmic reverb to "glue" the convolution reverbs together.


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## milesito (Apr 4, 2016)

I set it up the same way Asher had described: each instrument mic bus is sent to its own spaces reverb bus and each instrument bus is also sent to the same single Valhalla room instance


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## patrick76 (Apr 4, 2016)

You might want to try eq to help put the strings back a bit in the mix as well. You could try rolling off the high end and low end. And thinning it out a bit also. Try cuts at 2k 5k and maybe something between 150 to 400. You could narrow the stereo field too. You can boost the piano eq at around 5k to bring it forward a little also. Not sure if you can get what you want with reverb alone.


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## Ashermusic (Apr 4, 2016)

patrick76 said:


> You might want to try eq to help put the strings back a bit in the mix as well. You could try rolling off the high end and low end. And thinning it out a bit also. Try cuts at 2k 5k and maybe something between 150 to 400. You could narrow the stereo field too. You can boost the piano eq at around 5k to bring it forward a little also. Not sure if you can get what you want with reverb alone.



I would be very cautious about following that advice. It is very easy to ruin a library's sound with EQ.


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## patrick76 (Apr 4, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> I would be very cautious about following that advice. It is very easy to ruin a library's sound with EQ.


Very true. However, eq may possibly help with the problem at hand. You can always come back to the mix the next day and see if what you tried was helpful or if it destroyed the sound.


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## Ashermusic (Apr 4, 2016)

patrick76 said:


> Very true. However, eq may possibly help with the problem at hand. You can always come back to the mix the next day and see if what you tried was helpful or if it destroyed the sound.



I guess what I am suggesting is that it be the last resort, after everything else has been tried without success.


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## Flux (Apr 4, 2016)

I do like to mess with the EQ a bit and A-B it to see what kind of difference it makes, if anything just out of pure curiosity. Thanks for the advice, Patrick. I'll mess with your EQ suggestions later to see if it helps with my issues.


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## patrick76 (Apr 4, 2016)

Flux said:


> I do like to mess with the EQ a bit and A-B it to see what kind of difference it makes, if anything just out of pure curiosity. Thanks for the advice, Patrick. I'll mess with your EQ suggestions later to see if it helps with my issues.


No problem. I should mention that I don't have Cinematic Strings 2, so I can't speak specifically about that. Here is an article about creating distance from Sound on Sound you might want to check out. https://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb09/articles/deepspace.htm


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