# Gabriel Yared's AMELIA score



## dcoscina (Nov 12, 2009)

I have had a chance to listen through this score a couple times and find it quite compelling. It's nice to see Yared tackle some action material in this score along with his patented romantic style of composing. His main theme is really beautiful and employs some nice harmonic progressions (which I find is endemic to his style). I do find some of the cues very "Newmanish" in places. The wind harmonies recall Randy's NATURAL score or even his "PARENTHOOD" while some of the more kinetic material with the open 5ths suggests Thomas Newman. That said, it's probably more that both Newman's have channeled this kind of Americana for some time and are now associated with that sound even if it began with Aaron Copland.

What is really funny (but not) is how the music has been received by film critics. Lisa Schwartz-whatever from Entertainment Weekly (not the high mark for film criticism anyhow) spent two paragraphs running down Yared's score which begs the question "how does one score a movie about the freedom of flight?" I haven't seen the film but friends who have say that the music is one of the high points of the experience. It's really a pity that to be a good film composer these days means you have to write music that is background aural wallpaper or else to simple and palpable to the masses. I'm sure Bernard Herrmann, Jerry Goldsmith, Alex North and Leonard Rosenman are rolling in their respective graves.


----------



## JohnG (Nov 12, 2009)

Very interesting comments, Dave, which raise a bunch of issues for all of us who are writing for picture. 

The attack on Yared's score is indeed pretty savage:

_Gabriel Yared lays on blasts of musical exclamations that are as distracting as sirens. Sometimes that music says, ''It's great to be in the sky and surfing the clouds!'' Sometimes it says, ''Look how pretty the landscape looks below — kind of makes you miss the music in Out of Africa, right?'' Sometimes the rumble of violins and horns hints, ''Uh-oh, we're getting to the tragic part of the story!''

Mostly, the busy orchestra backs up the starry cinematography to remind us, ''This slim, androgynous beauty, with her unusual love life and her driving need to take to the skies, sure was something, huh?!'' Whatever the message, there's no navigating around such intrusive messengers._

Ok -- it's a harsh review. But I do think that the reviewer brings up a topic I'm wrestling with on my current project; what is "good" movie music now? The way I read it, the reviewer seems to be attacking Yared for underlining what's on the screen, which is pretty common practice, actually.

It's interesting Dave, that you bring up T. Newman in your post, as I'd say the most interesting of the many interesting things he does is to move away from that approach to film music, so that often it doesn't sound like "film music" at all, but just -- music. That he tries (and often succeeds) in bringing real integrity to the music as well as a different set of complex feelings to the picture only makes it even more interesting. 

So I guess your post and the review made me think more about T Newman than Yared after all. That led to my wondering whether T. Newman's chief contribution may be his search to give the movie what it needs but in an unexpected way, a contribution that surpasses, as much as I like them, the musical devices that crop up in his scores regularly. As you pointed out, these have become so associated with his scores that they seem as though they are all "his," even though some of them are threads that have been worked before.


----------



## nikolas (Nov 12, 2009)

It's something I've had problems before: "Your music is too good! Write something which won't distract so much!". 

I actually have decided that I can't let go of my passion, my abilities, and so on, so I choose my clients rather carefully. (that is to say that at least for now, I never had any problems apart from the one time above).

But I have also decided that music in media is there to serve the media. Certainly if one can find the right people so that the media will also help the music and create a collaborative medium of art, then things are perfect (theatre can be like that, more than films and computer games), but still I do try to remain 'humble' to my clients and their vision. I do offer my own perspective some times, and I do try to stay calm when they say "no"! :D

I agree that T.Newman is very good at what he does. The other example (full of complexities) is John Williams of course, where each and every cue is a masterpiece. Every CD I have of him is such a stunning achievement of composition! 

John: The review you quote is so harsh and negative... Gosh... :(


----------



## JohnG (Nov 12, 2009)

nikolas @ 12th November 2009 said:


> John: The review you quote is so harsh and negative... Gosh... :(



It's the review that Dave cited by Lisa Schwartzbaum in Entertainment Weekly.

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20314421,00.html


----------



## choc0thrax (Nov 12, 2009)

That's nothing compared to Horner's review of Yared's Troy score. 8) 

I'd like to see just how bad Yared's score is in Amelia but that would entail me watching Amelia, which is something that will never occur.


----------



## madbulk (Nov 12, 2009)

JohnG @ Thu Nov 12 said:


> Very interesting comments, Dave, which raise a bunch of issues for all of us who are writing for picture.
> 
> The attack on Yared's score is indeed pretty savage:
> 
> ...



This deserves its own multi-page thread. Please don't start it today though.


----------



## dcoscina (Nov 12, 2009)

I haven't seen the film either and probably will wait for DVD unless I end up interviewing Yared on this score (which is possible). And yeah, Horner basically called Yared's TROY an awful score that sounded like music for a Hercules movie. I'm surry Jimmy was simply upset because Yared was able to write ballsy action music without referencing Rachmaninov's 1st Symphony ("Danger Motif") or Prokofiev (Stealing the Enterprise) or Shostakovich (heroic theme in his Troy)


----------



## choc0thrax (Nov 12, 2009)

Gotta go with Seagal on this one.


----------



## dcoscina (Nov 12, 2009)

Niah I don't agree. Cold mountain, talented mr ripley, even something like City of Angels all had very effective and organic scores. We have a million and one guys aping zimmer and co. And just because one or two guys (I will include desplat in this company) write refined melodic music with great clarity doesn't negate the viability of their stylistic approach. I dare say that if you had a reater knowledge of classical repertoire you wouldn't think of horner as anythig except a hack who rips off anything thAt was written in the last century in the concert hall realm. And he's a pathological liar to boot. So forgive me if I don't regard his statement about yared's music with anything more than antipathy.


----------



## choc0thrax (Nov 12, 2009)

While Horner rips off classical music and himself constantly it has nothing to do with the fact that he's very good at writing to film, which is what we're discussing here. Cool fact: I'd take the Braveheart score over a million Yared scores anyday.


----------



## Niah (Nov 12, 2009)

choc0thrax @ Fri Nov 13 said:


> While Horner rips off classical music and himself constantly it has nothing to do with the fact that he's very good at writing to film, which is what we're discussing here. Cool fact: I'd take the Braveheart score over a million Yared scores anyday.



+1

Ok dave I really don't understand why you need to always attack a certain composer when we are discussing film music. First it was zimmer, then it was gustavo, now you are calling horner a liar.

time to cool your jets man :mrgreen: 

First like choco stated, it is irrevelant if james horner rips off classical music or not. Besides it's not like Yared doesn't it either or any other film composer. In fact that's one of the things that horner said about Gabriel, which is really ironic. And please lets not go into who rips the most.
But you know those kind of arguments are just diversions to discredit composers and to take our attentiion away of what is really revelent here which is writing music for film. 

Now I have already said everything I wanted about troy, but in regard of cold mountain and city of angels I thought the best music that carried those movies was not from Yared, and I don't even remembered the music of talented mr ripley. But anyway 3 average movies, that made very little to no impact in me. But if Yared's music is so melodic shouldn't it be memorable? Because I don't find that sorry. Only except as I mentioned - "The lives of others" which I can only listen to outside of the context of the film which is a terrible compliment for any film music I believe.

Now I disagree with you when you say that there are only two guys writing "refined melodic" music. It seems like an overstatment so I will go much into it. But I also disagree when you imply that I simply disregard any composer with the ability of writing for film just because their music is "refined melodic" whatever that means. The point that I was trying to make was that most composers working today seem to know their away around writing for film one way or the other, not Yared IMO. You have mentioned desplat, he is a great example of someone who's music works great on film. Great example - SYriana.

The style of music is not in question here just the applicability of the music in context and that is what I am discussing here.

I think the issue is Yared unlike like most film composers seems completely uncompromising when it comes to his music and although that may be admirable it doesn't work when you are working in the projects that he is working on.
Now there are other cases of composers that are uncompromising, I would say Michael Nyman is one of them, I believe he has admitted that as well, but he sure well knows what projects to get into unlike Yared IMO.


----------



## dcoscina (Nov 13, 2009)

I don't attack other composers Niah, I simply address issues I find with their music to qualify my position.

Clearly Yared doesn't do much for you. And when did I ever say horner wasn't an effective film composer? I just said that he's a known plagiarist- some can live with it while others find it annoying and morally wrong that he re-uses so much of his or other composers music so often. It's pretty bad when friends of mine who have no music training cite passages from one film score of Horner's in a completely different film. 

So while I hear what you're saying about Yared's music I still don't agree with your assessment. Clearly this is a matter of subjective taste.

but lesson learned- I will think twice about posting something like this in the future.


----------



## JohnG (Nov 13, 2009)

I am really almost astonished to see plagiarism brushed aside so casually. Dave is not talking about borrowing some techniques or even a "sound" but actual passages lifted straight from other pieces without giving credit. Skill is not the issue he raised. I admire a lot of Mr. Horner's work, but that is tough to extenuate.



Niah @ 12th November 2009 said:


> I think the issue is Yared, unlike like most film composers, seems completely uncompromising when it comes to his music



Faced with an avid director, Brad Pitt's accent and some of the other idiosyncrasies of "Troy," Mr. Yared's predicament must have been acute. And not to parse words, but ironically, Niah, I thought it was Yared's _willingness_ to compromise, not his reluctance, that Horner criticised. According to Horner, Yared allowed the director to woo him into writing a some kind of swashbuckling, Alfred Newman-esque score for Troy. From the description, it doesn't sound all that much like his English Patient or Cold Mountain prescription of "Tristan and Isolde," but something rather different.

Maybe he shouldn't score Alien-like movies -- I don't know. But I also like the "Cold Mountain" score and "The English Patient" as well, so stating categorically that the guy can write only for cinema that "doesn't exist anymore" -- can't agree. 

Besides, filmmaking and scoring trends come in waves. As I see it, we're on an extremely cynical one right now, comparable in some respects to the early 1970s right before Star Wars came out, loaded with more earnestness than an episode of Gunsmoke.


----------



## Niah (Nov 13, 2009)

I didn't felt you were attacking horner when you said that the plagiates, but rather when you said he was a liar. Maybe I didn't understand what you were refering to, sorry.


----------



## dcoscina (Nov 13, 2009)

Niah @ Fri Nov 13 said:


> I didn't felt you were attacking horner when you said that the plagiates, but rather when you said he was a liar. Maybe I didn't understand what you were refering to, sorry.



Allow me to elaborate- Horner, at times, has actually been asked straight out by interviewers about his "borrowing" and he comes back with statements like "it's just pastiche" or "all the movies are the same so I apply the same approach". I am paraphrasing a little bit but I'm sure Choco can confirm he's gone on record saying something to this effect. So perhaps he's not a liar per se but he's delusional if he can rationalize the extent of his borrowing when most other composers, Zimmer included, make an effort to be original with each new project.

For the record, I don't hate Zimmer the man. I don't even hate all of his music. I just wish there was more of a balance in the music style that comes out of Hollywood. I cannot lie and say that it doesn't bother me when I hear Transformers and The Rock and barely can tell the difference between the two in terms of sound, harmonic choices, melody and orchestration even though they are 12 years apart in their creation. And I'm a musician! I do have a keen ear and ability to discern small differences. 

Finally, John, thanks for your posts. They are very nicely articulated and give me something to think about. 

David


----------



## dcoscina (Nov 13, 2009)

Niah, actually Horner is a liar. He said he'd never listened to film music until he scored Star Trek 2 even though he dated Jerry Goldsmith's daughter years before. Uh huh.

Also, to those who people poo-poo Yared's insistence on infusing some artistic integrity into his scores: had this attitude not been around for years, we would not have scores like Psycho, Citizen Kane, Alexander Nevsky, Ran, Ivan the Terrible, The Sea Hawk, Planet of the Apes, Star Wars, The Taking of Pelham 1,2,3, Alien, Alien3, Interview with the Vampire, Altered States, Rebel without a Cause, Spartacus, Dragonslayer, and a the list goes on and on and on. 

Composers like Herrmann, Korngold, Steiner, Rosza, Newman, Goldsmith, Williams, Shire, Shore, North, Fielding, Barry, Schifrin, Corigliano, etc all had very distinct approaches and styles and, fuck yeah, EGOS that drove them to create the music they did. If they were immasculated like todays composers are we would have not have the body of classical film scores we do and there would be very little to refer to as an "art form".


----------



## Niah (Nov 13, 2009)

And just to make it clear when I said I agreed with horner I was talking about the fact that yared's score seemed inadequate to me. That was it.

And that was why I also mentioned in my first post that I don't know if this was a problem of bad direction or no direction at all. 

But whatever paths Yared takes by himself or by the director they all have the same texture and colour and an aesthetic that brings me back to the 60's and 70's, paths of glory, ben-hur or lawrence of arabia something like that. Cinema that doesn't exist anymore at least to me, what exists is an attempt of reinventing that but it doesn't succeed because it looks too glossy and trendy and modern and that to me is what clashes with Yared's music.

What I usually see in these troy discussions is that people simply evaluate yared's and horner's score from a musical point of view. Isn't that missing the point?

This discussion seems to be pushing to Yared's and Horner's musical abilities and that's not what I am talking about.

I am not neglecting plagiarism I just thought it was irrevelant to the discussion. Because we are talking about music in context. After all this thread started with a critique of the music within the film Amelia.

And that is what I have been discussing, the music within these films.

Finally I do feel there is an overall tendency and emphasis on evaluating film music by the music itself and film composer's abilities from an almost exclusive musical standpoint. Disregarding the context and the medium that this music was created for.
Film music must be experienced and valued within the film and the film should not be something you go see after you already heard the score beforehand.

I am probably already repeating myself too much sorry...over and out


----------



## dcoscina (Nov 13, 2009)

Don't take this the wrong way Niah but your attitude towards music and film is only serving to perpetuate the problem. I have worked with musically illiterate directors but ones who, when given the option, will go for the elevated music 9 times out of 10. It is on US, the composers, to remember not to patronize the filmmaker with what is comfortable but to give them all of the options. In some cases, yes, they will go with the safe bet. but in others, exposing them to the full array of what a musical score can be sometimes gives way to a much richer collaboration. 

While I am a very passionate subscriber to aesthetic quality of music, I have studied film as well as respect that medium as much. As such, I don't expect to serve crap to my employer just because I don't think they can handle more involved or elevated music. but hey, I'm not working on the same scale as Zimmer or whomever so whatever I say counts for shit to you guys so whatever.


----------



## Niah (Nov 13, 2009)

No I won't take it the wrong way. 

But what attitude is that? The only attitude I am having here is looking at things as they are, and not as they are not.

All this time we have mentioned movies that not very artistic inclined but rather entertainment and comercially driven. So when you throw the term "art form" into the mix I have some problem in understanding what you are talking about. :D But anywa there has been allready alot of threads about this don't want to open another can of worms.  

You seem to focus alot on this notion that the old days were pure heaven for film music and that nowadays it's all crap and if you write good music whatever that is you are castrated because you are not following the trend or whatnot. But this was something that film composers have to deal with as the medium changed over the years. I remember that hitchcock at the end of his career ditched bernard herrmann because the producers wanted him to go with someone more "hip".
Which brings me to the style of filmmaking of the hollywood system which relies mostly on the what the production company wants and the respective executive producers, after all they are the ones financing the movie. So the director is in most cases just another person hired to get the job done and has to work under restrictions and guidelines set by the producers and the company. In these cases the director rarely or never, has final cut and most of the musical decisions within these movies come from the executives.
So it's not like the director is the fault here, it's a whole system that also created a kind of cinema culture that has influended audiences and their expectations. And what should we expect from these cases? The problem I have with your statements is that you talk as if there are no other alternatives to this moviemaking machine or no other wonderful rare expections of great films and music whithin this system. Because there are.

Now it all boils down to choices and I have made a conscious decision that I didn't wanted to work as a full time composer (althought I did that briefly) because I wasn't too keen on this client relationship. Not to mention the times a director liked my music but wanted changed because the producer wanted it so.
Instead I wanted an artist-artist collaboration, after all I am a creative individual not a tool.
So presently that's the projects I mostly work on. Of course I don't mean this as any disrepect to anyone, most of my colleagues just want to work and it doesn't matter what it is, and they are happy doing so. I wasn't, but that's why I choose another path.

So I'm not really sure if I am contributing to the "problem". :mrgreen: But I don't feel bothered by the things you state about film or music because they don't represent the big picture to me and they are only a small part of the pie. Now just to make sure we are seeing eye to eye I am talking about a worldwide global perpective here not just concentrating on the US.  So I really don't share this fatalist view of things.

Indeed if you want this system to change you either leave it or you get as much involved as you can. That means becoming a producer, writing, creating a production company creating your own opportunities where you can really elevate the quality of the music.

You also seem to drag alot of attention to zimmer and co, as they represent the new wave or new era of film music vs the old days again. But what I find weird about that is at least to me zimmer and co represent the past as well. Zimmer came in, in the 80's and coined some kind of a new face or sound of film taht was cimented to the mid 90's but I haven't heard anything pretty much new or different since then from these guys. It's already yesterdays news to me.


----------



## JohnG (Nov 13, 2009)

Never have cocktails before posting.


----------



## dcoscina (Nov 13, 2009)

The reason this thread took the turn it did was because of the critics who have decimated Yared's music especially (although it sounds like they don't like the film and just use the music as the scapegoat- what else is new?). This then leads to the question of the quality of music for film these days. The funny thing is that Yared composed a very dynamic and varied score. There are some tracks that have long sustained strings/electronic pads with ethnic woodwinds- something you might hear in a R-C score. And I really cannot fathom why Yared's more stirring tracks have invited the backlash. How many scores have we been bludgeoned by for dramatic films over the years. I remember seeing LAST SAMURAI at an advanced screening. Parts of it I liked (the more stoic New Agey stuff actually- it worked well) but the "heroic theme" was totally out of place and marred certain scenes like the one where Ujio is beating up Algren (Cruise). Totally overblown sappy manipulative stuff. It ruined an otherwise fine scene. 

I'm also not sure why there is this need to shy away from some of these topics. It's not like we're going to come to a consensus given all of the different backgrounds, training, and preferences on this forum. But having a dialogue about such things isn't a bad thing.


----------



## _taylor (Nov 13, 2009)

How about that Hilary Swank? :love:


----------



## choc0thrax (Nov 13, 2009)

Hillary Swank is indeed a very attractive man.


----------



## dcoscina (Nov 13, 2009)

choc0thrax @ Fri Nov 13 said:


> Hillary Swank is indeed a very attractive man.



you know you want her choco. :mrgreen:


----------



## _taylor (Nov 13, 2009)

choc0thrax @ Fri Nov 13 said:


> Hillary Swank is indeed a very attractive man.



haha :lol: 

yea, granted she could prob kick my ass, I happen to know shes all women. 

I played truth or dare with her when I was in 5th grade.. 0oD


----------



## dcoscina (Nov 13, 2009)

this thread has indeed gone downhill


----------



## dcoscina (Nov 13, 2009)

sorry. This was a duplicate post. Dumb iPod touch

OT- what martial art do u study Niah?


----------



## Ed (Nov 13, 2009)

Yes but Dave, Williams steals things as well, Horner may do it more blatently and less intelligently perhaps but to say he is a plagiarist and Williams isnt is rather arbitary.


----------



## JohnG (Nov 13, 2009)

Horner has lifted exact passages. Not sound-alike, but note for note, key themes with the same orchestration, same tempo; it's the same piece. I kind of thought the same thing -- everybody's bashing Horner when the borrowing happens with everyone -- until I heard a podcast that runs through Horner's more conspicuous spots. My guess is that you would shake your head if you heard it.

That is not the same thing at all as Williams using the sound or feel of someone else's piece; one is plagiarism, the other is imitation. There are hundreds of years of law, cases and common practice to back up the distinction, whatever one's personal opinion.


----------



## mf (Nov 13, 2009)

Niah @ Fri Nov 13 said:


> Maybe there's nothing wrong with the music by itself, but rather within the context of the film. Have you considered that?


Right on. Also, maybe there's nothing wrong with the music but with the stupid film makers who don't want in their films the music that x or y likes. They want instead the music that THEY like. Ignorant assholes. As if their opinion is of any importance. Bah


----------



## poseur (Nov 13, 2009)

dcoscina @ Fri Nov 13 said:


> Also, to those who people poo-poo Yared's insistence on infusing some artistic integrity into his scores: had this attitude not been around for years, we would not have scores like Psycho, Citizen Kane, Alexander Nevsky, Ran, Ivan the Terrible, The Sea Hawk, Planet of the Apes, Star Wars, The Taking of Pelham 1,2,3, Alien, Alien3, Interview with the Vampire, Altered States, Rebel without a Cause, Spartacus, Dragonslayer, and a the list goes on and on and on.
> 
> Composers like Herrmann, Korngold, Steiner, Rosza, Newman, Goldsmith, Williams, Shire, Shore, North, Fielding, Barry, Schifrin, Corigliano, etc all had very distinct approaches and styles and, f#@k yeah, EGOS that drove them to create the music they did. If they were immasculated like todays composers are we would have not have the body of classical film scores we do and there would be very little to refer to as an "art form".



that bears repeating, i think.
good credo, maybe, even!
thank you, dc.

dt


----------



## dcoscina (Nov 13, 2009)

Filmmaking used to be about collaboration but at some point producers took complete control and left everyone out of the creative loop when they see fit to change things for the sake of higher profits. You cannot tell me a focus group comprised of pre teens who listen to Brittany spears is able to actually discern what effective underscore is but yet these little twits were the ones those MBA shmucks listened to when they turfed yared's score for Troy....


----------



## mf (Nov 14, 2009)

dcoscina @ Fri Nov 13 said:


> there would be very little to refer to as an "art form".


Film music is only a component of something called film. Film art is whatever the film makers call art. You may call art something else, but that's just your opinion against theirs. 

The point is: it's their film. Not the composer's, and not yours. It's their own take on art. Not the composer's, and not yours. You have of course the right to criticize what you dislike or misunderstand, but your criticism has only the value of one irrelevant opinion, and your own frustration doesn't mean you know better than the film makers what they want for their films. 

Besides, you are mistaken in your judgment and criticism, because you base your judgments solely on your personal taste while failing to take into consideration (a) the only taste that matters, which is the film maker's, and (b) the main purpose of making films: money. That makes the world go round. And sustains this industry.


----------



## dcoscina (Nov 14, 2009)

But once upon a time we had filmmakers who would respect their composer enough to trust their instincts when it came time to score their picture. In some cases, like Eisenstein with Alexander Nevsky or Spielberg with ET, both recur some scenes TO their composers music score because they did not want to mar those particular cues. The most recent example of this kind of trust and respect can be found in PT Anderson's There Will Be Blood. He let Jonny Greenwood go places many other veteran film composers would not go. And it worked for the film as seen in many film reviews. Interestingly enough Anderson also gets final cut authority on all of his pictures meaning MBA types can't fuck with them. 

So yes the director is largely responsible for the outcome of the score at least it's final execution. But today we have less informed adept filmmmakers. Anderson is but one of few who know the medium very well. And he respects his composers enough thar he normally mixes the music very dominantly in his films. U see he recognizes the fact that film is it's own form and can impart a narrative through a combination of purely visual and musical means without falling back on dialogue like a stage play. Hence we used to have montage sequences where the music and visuals could tell part of the story.


----------



## dcoscina (Nov 14, 2009)

BTW Michael giacchino's UP is a lovely thematic score with superb variations and development. He's one to watch for as he is really growing exponantially. But honestly his score is much like Amelia from Yared. It's overt, touching, and well written.


----------



## Niah (Nov 14, 2009)

JohnG @ Sat Nov 14 said:


> Niah, what do you gain by attacking David with these rather random, and in some instances misinformed rants?



you have got to be joking

but really if i'm misinformed, I am not saying that I am not, I would like to know where

Because none of the issues I have posted have been adress and all I hear from you is that I drink, which I never do.

I mean talk about dialogue


----------



## Niah (Nov 14, 2009)

and btw I was not ranting or attacking dave I might have been irritated when I continued to poste because I felt I was being ignored, not to mention that to this day I'm still trying to understand the things dave says about film music.
The reason I continued to post was once again to go deeper into the subject, but it never goes. It doesn't even scratch the surface.

And this goes way beyond yared or any other composer, it's a discussion that goes way back if you are wondering about that.


----------



## dcoscina (Nov 14, 2009)

Niah, please enlighten me as to where you want to take this subject in order to gain a "deeper" perspective. From your posts, you are firmly affixed to the notion that the filmmakers define the entirety of the project and its their vision that should be most important. The problem is, film by its very nature is a collaborative medium and I have a hard sit swallowing that there's the same equanimity in the process insofar as the role of the composer as there was 20 years ago and further back. Perhaps this same problem holds true for editing and photography in film and I'm just not as cognizant of it because I do not frequent forums with that dept. 

I doubt a Herrmann or North or Korngold could exist in today's film scoring environment and thus we would not have any great examples of the marriage of excellent film technique and music technique. So, it is MY OPINION that we are worse off because of this. But then again, the '80s were rife with awful synth scores and they ended up disappearing like a fart in the wind in the '90s so it's possible we're just in the down part of a cycle. I do have hope when I see composers like Giacchino, Desplat, Shearmur, Marianelli, Chris Gordon, and those types get more A list assignments because they all have the ability to score their respective projects well but all infuse their music with some substance and character. 

Some of you guys might not think a compositional technique like motivic imitation or thematic imitation is necessary for a film score but unconsciously it helps bind a key idea in the music that is associated with a character or event or plot point. This is not merely a music device any longer but a dramatic device and aids the FILM. 

If you want to talk film technique, by all means, let's have at it. I love film and regardless of what you think my intentions or philosophy about music in film is, I do think I have a fairly decent perspective on music in film.

p.s. I might be wrong but I fail to understand how my little ol' opinions can warrant personal reprisals. If you're frustrated, then I would surmise you are not confident in your own position, or perhaps it might be because some other people on this forum agree with my position. Which is of course a single perspective and not the objective truth. Truth of course is an illusion. 

My continual stance, and perhaps this is where I get frustrated, is why can't we strive for better? Not just us composers but directors, screenwriters, heck just people in general? What's so hot about towing the line? I see so much energy wasted trying to rationalize mediocrity when it would be better served to try something new, even if you miss the mark. But hey, I guess that's just another opinion. I'm beginning to think that as much as you purport to wanting to have an exchange of ideas Niah, you really just want people to agree with your position as much as you claim I want people to agree with mine. I don't want people to agree with mine but I sure as hell expect people not to personalizing the argument towards myself.


----------



## dcoscina (Nov 14, 2009)

One final point- a similar thread on Amelia exists on Film Score Monthly forum comprised mostly of non musicians and film score fans. I find it curious (if not a little sad) that the ideas put out regarding the acceptance or lack thereof of overt melodic music is more prominent than on this forum which is mostly comprised of musicians. What would that be do you think?


----------



## Niah (Nov 14, 2009)

dcoscina @ Sat Nov 14 said:


> One final point- a similar thread on Amelia exists on Film Score Monthly forum comprised mostly of non musicians and film score fans. I find it curious (if not a little sad) that the ideas put out regarding the acceptance or lack thereof of overt melodic music is more prominent than on this forum which is mostly comprised of musicians. What would that be do you think?



Well what I think is, that the term "melodic" is just like any other term to describe music, meaning it's very subjective. For instance I don't usually find Yared's work melodic with the expection of the lives of others. And yes I don't find amelia's score melodic either.
I don't really know how to describe what "melodic" means to me through words but I know when I hear it. Like for example on yared's lives of others theme.

I hear alot of composers saying that there are no melodic scores today, or very few, and that film composers are forced or not encouraged to write like that anymore. 

Again I don't share that view from what I see and hear, I think the question has more to do with, what is "melodic"?
And what was "melodic" in the past, is it sill melodic now? Has the concept of "melodic" changed?

well the world certainly has


----------



## Niah (Nov 14, 2009)

Also I agree with almost everything you say about film music on this and other threads. It's not opinions, it's facts, so I can't argue with that.

Where I disagree is the way you put things, like film music was much better then than now without getting into much detail to support that. You don't get much deeper into it except presenting with a list of wonderful composers from the past, against what we have now. That was what I was talking about, not getting deeper into film theory.
There were many bad composers in the past that have been completly forgotten, is that fair to the an evaluating of film music today and to the working film composers of today?
Because you don't go into much detail of the specific reality of film music that you are talking about you force me into having a global perspective. And in a global perspective I don't consider that things now are worse or better, just different. But you might be talking about a specific reality that I would agree with you. But I can only guess.

So basically my frustation comes from being misunderstood by alot of the things that I wrote.


----------

