# Piano inquiry - how long to hold notes?



## RiffWraith (Jan 13, 2015)

Hey guys. Was hoping someone who plays can clue me in on something - how long to hold certain notes. Ok, it'd going to depend - I get it. But let's take this for ex:

http://www.jeffreyhayat.com/piano.mp3 (MIDI data below)

Other than the D, obviously, how long should I hold the other notes for? Is there a general rule that piano players subscribe to when it comes to stuff like this?

Thanks in advance.


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## Richard Wilkinson (Jan 13, 2015)

You could pedal the notes, depending on the complexity of the music - specifically how busy the part is or how much harmonic change there is, but for your example holding that note in the left hand would be fine. Not unusual. As for the others, I feel like they should be released on the downbeat of the following bars. Depends what sort of feeling you're going for - whether you want the F and E to be fairly legato, melodic, or whether you want them both sustained - to blur together.


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## Wooloomooloo (Jan 13, 2015)

As a rather terrible piano player (but hopefully still improving), what you have illustrated is definitely not unusual and pretty easy to play. How long the notes are sustained is up to the composer, as long as it's physically possible it can be played.

Very simple rules (and sorry they're so obvious, no condescension intended) but obviously think about the hand positions, so if you have right hand sustaining say middle C with the player's thumb, assuming the left hand is also doing something, bear in mind the four 'free' fingers on the right hand will have limited reach... so playing some melody two octaves higher isn't going to be possible.

There's always the sustain pedal, but that will sustain all notes.


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## tokatila (Jan 13, 2015)

It depends.

But as a mediocre piano player (= a few years) I would instinctively release E (also C#) before playing new low D. But that depends. It's completely okay as written too.

I don't really think you can write non-idiomatic stuff on piano, if you stay withing 5 notes per hand and not spread them too much,

Ps. Does it go A-G next on the right hand?


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## bbunker (Jan 13, 2015)

Honestly, that's more of a compositional than a pianistic question!

Instinctively, I'd pedal the passage, after the bass note so that it's extra smooth and creamy, without any gaps in the sound of the instrument. It kind of sounds like you want the F3 notes to be connected to the E3 in a sort of "Marcato-Legato" way, with a definite articulation on the F3, but then far less overlap between the two notes. Because if you wanted the F tied over the E, then how long? It probably wouldn't tie over for just a sixteenth or eighth note, but for as long as the E sounds, and it doesn't sound like that's your intention. Definitely try going for smooth and articulate Legato first with just a tiny ribbon of hold-over between the F3 and the E3.

You might try, if you play the passage with pedal, playing the F3 staccato. Mendelssohn uses that technique a lot in the Songs Without Words to bring out the top line, since you get a kind of bell-like tone ringing over the lower notes. Assuming that you're using a Piano VI that has that much differentiation of tone, of course!

Note releases should probably be together. Do you want a "down," solid release by releasing the pedal while all the notes are held down, then releasing the keys, or more of an "up" release by releasing the keys first, then easing off the pedal? Note-releases with the keys tend to have an "ump" sound, while pedal releases are more "whoof."

Just a couple things to think about!


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## tokatila (Jan 13, 2015)

bbunker @ Tue Jan 13 said:


> Note releases should probably be together. Do you want a "down," solid release by releasing the pedal while all the notes are held down, then releasing the keys, or more of an "up" release by releasing the keys first, then easing off the pedal? Note-releases with the keys tend to have an "ump" sound, while pedal releases are more "whoof."
> 
> Just a couple things to think about!



Tried to play that again. If played without pedal, I concur, that I would release both at the same time (E and low D).

WIth pedal, probably I would let go E (and C#) before D. Just my preference.


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## AC986 (Jan 13, 2015)

Smooth & Creamy is good. :wink:


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## muk (Jan 13, 2015)

RiffWraith @ Tue Jan 13 said:


> Is there a general rule that piano players subscribe to when it comes to stuff like this?



The general rule is that piano players play it as it is written. In the sheet music it will be visible whether the D2 should be held or released when you play F3 and E3 (you cannot notate it without deciding it first), for example. You would also have to convey note lengths for the F3 and E3, so the piano player would not decide this on his own.
From a composers point of view, in my opinion both is possible. You could hold E3 until the next D2, or you could release it after a short while (think a quaver). 
As a pianist (I'm not a professional, but I had some fifteen years of classical training) I would definitely play F3 to E3 legato (eg release F3 right after the E3 has been struck), and I wouldn't hold the F3 in the pedal unless there was a specific instruction to so. That's because pianists don't build up tension through pedal notes if it can be avoided. So I wouldn't want to have F3, E3, and D2 in the same pedal unless the composer asked for it.


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## RiffWraith (Jan 13, 2015)

Thanks guys! 

Will have a look at this in depth tomorrow.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 14, 2015)

I'd say, if you need to ask this question it's probably because it doesn't make any difference for you. My advice would be to train yourself to hear the difference and judge for yourself which you prefer in different situations, it could come down to a question of taste and intention.


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## RiffWraith (Jan 18, 2015)

Guy Bacos @ Wed Jan 14 said:


> I'd say, if you need to ask this question it's probably because it doesn't make any difference for you.



Huh??? No - it _does_ make a difference - hence the reason I am asking in the first place.


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## RiffWraith (Jan 18, 2015)

bbunker @ Tue Jan 13 said:


> Honestly, that's more of a compositional than a pianistic question!



Is it really?

I figured it's more of a "feel" type of thing... tho I do understand piano players will play it as it is written.

I guess I am just asking what would be the more common way of doing it - if there is such a thing. Like on guitar, when playing a legato type progression, you would typically hold all of the notes of a chord before moving to the next chord. You would typically hold all of the notes of an arp before moving to the next arp. Of course there are exceptions, but that is more often than not the way it's done. 

So you guys are suggesting that the F overlap the E slightly - less than what I have there? And kill the E earlier and do not let it overlap with the following D?

Thanks again.


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## bbunker (Jan 18, 2015)

Maybe a better thing to say would be that it's a question of concept rather than execution. You hold down all the notes of a chord on guitar, sure...but what do you see the chord here as being? Is it a D minor with added notes? Is it a true Dm add9? And then what about the C#...is it a dissonant non-harmonic tone, or do you hear this as some kind of A/Dm polychord? Or, is the whole right hand a melody over a bass, rather than a chord figuration?

All that probably sounds like meaningless drivel. Except that every different option above, I'd play slightly differently, in terms of how much weight to give to each note (velocity), how they're placed in terms of attack and note release, how the pedal is used, and in tone color.

Maybe try this exercise: play it first as if it were one big chord that's slowly being spelled out, like a Dm(maj9) that's spelled out slowly over time. So, trying to balance and blend everything. Then, play it as if the right hand is a definite melody, and each note needs clarity - standing out by contrast instead of blending. Then, whichever route you prefer tells you something about what you're thinking compositionally, I think.

I hope that all makes sense...


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 18, 2015)

RiffWraith @ Sun Jan 18 said:


> Guy Bacos @ Wed Jan 14 said:
> 
> 
> > I'd say, if you need to ask this question it's probably because it doesn't make any difference for you.
> ...



In some cases you will want to play it one way and in other cases you may want to do it the other way, but I find it weird asking someone else something what should be a personal thing based on a compositional intention. This is what I mean when I say, if you need to ask this question it probably doesn't make any difference for you, not that you don't hear the difference. Don't know if you see what I mean. Like asking your neighbour, which colour should I paint my house?


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