# Trying to write JW style action cues is really exhausting!!



## DeOlivier (Apr 11, 2008)

Hi there,
Normally I do my best not to imitate John Williams, but I have the opportunity to write an action/battle piece in this style at the moment. I have finished about one minute so far - it's fun to do (and very instructional), but it's really exhausting. There has to be so much going on in these tracks. And JW can write several minutes of that stuff (in a much higher quality of course) a day... :shock:

You can take a listen here: http://www.oliverwallner.com/music/jw_action_v0_6.mp3

Cheers, Oliver


----------



## Rob (Apr 11, 2008)

excellent!

roberto


----------



## Michael_Jan (Apr 11, 2008)

Perfect =o


----------



## JB78 (Apr 11, 2008)

Great job so far Oliver!

Best regards
Jon


----------



## Daryl (Apr 11, 2008)

JW doesn't have to program anything, and only writes a short score, so in terms of quantity, it is relatively easy.

D


----------



## Cinesamples (Apr 11, 2008)

If you look at the star wars prequels and the harry potter trilogy he did - they are almost wall to wall music. And writing the cues and the dense orchestrations out by hand must be very time consuming, especially the amount of details he composes with.

So i must disagree with the above poster and agree with the OP.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 11, 2008)

Yeah, he sucks. Anybody can do what he does.


----------



## Blackster (Apr 11, 2008)

Hi Oliver,

that really is absolutely amazing !! Great work !! I tried a lot of times to imitate his style but haven´t succeed yet. So my congrats to you - you´ve done a very good job!

Looking forward to listen to some more of this from you !!

All the best,

Blackster


----------



## Brian Ralston (Apr 11, 2008)

Nice job Oliver. I would say though...there is one thing characteristic in John Williams' writing (or rather his action writing)...that is almost universal besides the complexity which you have already achieved...and if you are really trying to nail what he does...just know that he almost always writes in 6/8, 9/8 or 12/8 meters. 

And, he always has an underlying pulse of eigth notes on the triplet in those meters. Writing in these meters and having the constant eigth note pulse driving the piece also allows him to shift the pulse of his phrases from the feeling of 2 to the feeling of 3 on any down beat. Even when he does write in 4/4, he still has the eight note pulse going on in the orchestra in some section. One can hear it and follow it in the orchestrations as it is passed around to the different instruments of the orchestra. 

That is probably the one big thing I don't hear in your piece. That is not to say you have not done a wonderful job with your cue here...you have. Just that if you are trying to get down what William's does...



o-[][]-o


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 11, 2008)

Beautifully done, Oliver! That is so much work... but the results are worth it, clearly. =o


----------



## Peter Emanuel Roos (Apr 11, 2008)

Oliver,

This is the first time I have actually heard a midi-mockup in JW's style that surpasses what Thomas Bergersen (TJ) has done in JW's style. As much I am always stunned by TJ's demos, you have really beat him to it this time.

Excellent, and I have just played it once on my laptop - will go upstairs to my studio later to play it really loud.

Cool man, this is really inspiring to all of us, pros and wannabees!

More! (not necessarily in JW's style of course)

Peter


----------



## MacQ (Apr 11, 2008)

Hey,

It's great that you'd post this. I was about to ask about action cues of this type ... as to whether there is a "fast" way of doing it. But I guess, in true "underscore" fashion, it really is down to the timings of what's happening on screen. 

I love this kind of music, but I find myself so melody-driven in my writing that this stuff is difficult for me. It's like an exercise in pure orchestration, which is quite a process. This is the kind of thing that is so labour-intensive, and yet almost entirely unnoticed by the end viewer/listener. Incidental music of the highest calibre, and immediately forgotten. In the end I suppose it's all about emotion and pacing, and pulling the audience along, even if they can't remember a single part of the music afterwards (without a melody to hold their attention).

Fascinating, and great work on your part. I hope you understand my comments above. I'm quite impressed.

~Stu


----------



## RiffWraith (Apr 11, 2008)

DeOlivier @ Fri Apr 11 said:


> Trying to write JW style action cues is really exhausting!!



Yeah - no shit!!! There is so much going on, and so many different things happening at once, that lead into other things, but somehow it all blends and gels.

Oliver - excellent job. I wouldn't have guessed that was JW himself, but you did an excellent job creating that "Williams-esque" sound. More???


----------



## Aaron Sapp (Apr 11, 2008)

Peter Roos @ Fri Apr 11 said:


> This is the first time I have actually heard a midi-mockup in JW's style that surpasses what Thomas Bergersen (TJ) has done in JW's style. As much I am always stunned by TJ's demos, you have really beat him to it this time.



Don't mean to hijack, but I found this a bit funny as he (TJ) so rarely posts music. You really ought to hear some his recent tracks. 

With that said, great job DeOlivier! The writing is real nice - lot of cool stuff going on.


----------



## artsoundz (Apr 11, 2008)

very nice, .... amazing, actually...


----------



## DeOlivier (Apr 12, 2008)

Wow, thanks for all your comments! Never thought that I would get so many replies to this. Yes, this is definitely hard work, but as you say, it's worth the effort. And it's amazing to get that kind of response from so many people whose talent and skills I've always respected.



> JW doesn't have to program anything, and only writes a short score, so in terms of quantity, it is relatively easy.





> If you look at the star wars prequels and the harry potter trilogy he did - they are almost wall to wall music. And writing the cues and the dense orchestrations out by hand must be very time consuming, especially the amount of details he composes with.


Yes, of course JW doesn't have to do any mockups, but on the other hand I would never be able to write a track like this without a sequencer. I often find the lines that go together best by "purposeful experimentation", and I really have no clue how I could achieve this just sitting at a piano with only a piece of paper and a pencil! He really is a master, and now I can appreciate this even more.



> ...just know that he almost always writes in 6/8, 9/8 or 12/8 meters.
> 
> And, he always has an underlying pulse of eigth notes on the triplet in those meters. Writing in these meters and having the constant eigth note pulse driving the piece also allows him to shift the pulse of his phrases from the feeling of 2 to the feeling of 3 on any down beat. Even when he does write in 4/4, he still has the eight note pulse going on in the orchestra in some section. One can hear it and follow it in the orchestrations as it is passed around to the different instruments of the orchestra.


Brian, thanks a lot for your short analysis, very insightful. I actually never really analyzed the meters of JW's pieces, I just chose mine on instinct. It's always amazing from how many different angles you can look at the works of the masters.



> What libraries are you using if I may ask? And how much time did it take to create this (composition and mixing)?


Hannesdm, I use mostly EWQLSO Gold XP and Vienna SE (almost exclusively for legato instruments). The short choir passage you hear was done with the Colossus choir patches and the taikos (ok, I don't know if JW would have used those  ) are from Tsaiko. It took me about one and a half working days (8 hours per day) to compose and record the piece so far.



> This is the first time I have actually heard a midi-mockup in JW's style that surpasses what Thomas Bergersen (TJ) has done in JW's style. As much I am always stunned by TJ's demos, you have really beat him to it this time.


Peter - Wow, that's really an honor to be compared to TJ! He was always a great inspiration for me. I really appreciate the comparison, but I still think it's hard or even impossible to "beat" him...



> In the end I suppose it's all about emotion and pacing, and pulling the audience along, even if they can't remember a single part of the music afterwards (without a melody to hold their attention).


MacQ, So true... But isn't it the best job in the world - trying to captivate the audience's emotions, even if they don't notice it consciously?



> There is so much going on, and so many different things happening at once, that lead into other things, but somehow it all blends and gels.


RiffWraith - Very well put. I think that's what it's all about - combining highly complex material in a way so that it's still an organic listening experience.



> Don't mean to hijack, but I found this a bit funny as he (TJ) so rarely posts music. You really ought to hear some his recent tracks.


Aaron - Yeah it's a pity he seldom posts music. No doubt that he is getting better and better. Did you have the opportunity to listen to some of his recent stuff?


----------



## billval3 (Apr 12, 2008)

Can you talk a little bit about the process you've gone through on this? Did you come up with an overall outline first? I'm interested in how someone approaches something this dense.

Great job, by the way!


----------



## Dave Connor (Apr 12, 2008)

Very good. Not a criticism but the harmonic language is not really nailed as to JW's (not sure if you meant to be closer to his.) The whole tone derived harmonies such as in that featured brass moment are more old school than his. Also his polytonal brass voicings (chord upon chord) are not quite there. He also moves trumpets in equal interval triads which I think you got close too but didn't seem to nail.

Anyway, you may have meant to capture more of his textures and rhythmic devices and indeed use your own language (which is the goal in doing someone's style I would think) so it's all good if that's the case. Just trying to be helpful if you want to evoke him a little closer.

Nice work and yes, making midi based orchestral music is a chore that never becomes easy.


----------



## Daryl (Apr 12, 2008)

Ashermusic @ Fri Apr 11 said:


> Have you have never seen an Indiana Jones movie?
> 
> I am sorry, but that kind of writing is very difficult and time consuming and Williams is a master.


Yes I have seen all the Indy movies, probably as many times as you have and maybe even before you did, and I didn't say that the writing was easy, just that doing more minutes in a day is, when you don't have to program as well.

D


----------



## Daryl (Apr 12, 2008)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Apr 11 said:


> Yeah, he sucks. Anybody can do what he does.


Try reading what I actually posted, rather than what you thought I posted, if that stupid comment is aimed at me.

D


----------



## sevaels (Apr 12, 2008)

My girlfriend and I went and saw him this winter when he came to town.

He played live and most of all discussed his scoring process. He took the audience through Indiana Jones scenes and discussed his thoughts and process. What he goes through with each scene and how he works with the director.

The Symphony then played with him conducting as the movie was on a big screen behind them.

One of the most fun nights I've had. He was amazingly candid and his composition process as he describes it is very thorough and time consuming for him.


----------



## Ashermusic (Apr 12, 2008)

Daryl @ Sat Apr 12 said:


> Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Apr 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, he sucks. Anybody can do what he does.
> ...



What you actually wrote was: "JW doesn't have to program anything, and only writes a short score, so in terms of quantity, it is relatively easy."

Which is a silly statement that only a person who has not had to actually do this would write. Nick was right to make fun of it.


----------



## Daryl (Apr 12, 2008)

Ashermusic @ Sat Apr 12 said:


> Daryl @ Sat Apr 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Apr 11 said:
> ...


OK, I'll try to explain it in terms even an American can understand. :roll: 

Composers A and B are writing an action sequence. Both of them have to write the music. A has to program the score into a good sounding demo.
Composer B has to write a short score.

So all I am saying is that programming a full orchestra takes way more time than writing a short score. If I was composer A, it would take me anything up to 8 hours to program a good sounding demo. If I was composer B I could do it in around 2 hours. Therefore I could produce more quantity by not programming.

FWIW I have not only written stuff using short score as well as programming, but orchestrated and programmed other people's stuff, so I do have some idea what I'm talking about. You and Nick may be arrogant enough to think that your experiences are the only ones that are valid, but others of us have experience that is just as valid as yours. It just may be different to yours.

Anyway, this is exactly why I don't normally comment on these threads, because I hate these stupid pissing comments, especially when I was only being supportive to the original poster.

D


----------



## Ashermusic (Apr 12, 2008)

Daryl @ Sat Apr 12 said:


> Ashermusic @ Sat Apr 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Daryl @ Sat Apr 12 said:
> ...



I am a very good composer and I cannot write the kind of cues Williams did for the Indian Jones films, which frequently are several minutes long, for a full orchestra in anywhere NEAR 2 hours.It would take me an hour just to plot all my hits and make the proper tempo adjustments, etc., Then I have to come up with the thematic material, and add meter changes, etc. 

Most of the good composers I know in L.A. say that at best they can write 3-5 minutes a day, and that is not strictly action cues, which generally are at a fast tempo and so lots and lots of measures.

So please direct me to the place on your website where you have written that kind of an action cue for a real orchestra in 2 hours or tell me where to rent the film where I can see and hear it and example of where you did and I will immediately acknowledge that you are far more facile than I am, and very sincerely apologize to you.

Until then, which I doubt is going to happen, I will respectfully suggest that you are full of what makes the grass grow green.


----------



## Jaap (Apr 12, 2008)

Very nice Olivier! Great great work, looking forward to hear more.


----------



## artsoundz (Apr 12, 2008)

I dont read his posts this way, Jay. I think it's obvious what his point is- JW would be challenged to program a mockup of what was written that day- especially at the level of Olivier's example.

Daryl clearly didnt imply he could write as well as JW . His comments, taken at face value , seem reasonable. Programming can be brutal...


----------



## Ashermusic (Apr 12, 2008)

artsoundz @ Sat Apr 12 said:


> I dont read his posts this way, Jay. I think it's obvious what his point is- JW would be challenged to program a mockup of what was written that day- especially at the level of Olivier's example.
> 
> Daryl clearly didnt imply he could write as well as JW . His comments, taken at face value , seem reasonable. Programming can be brutal...



I quite agree about the mockup issue but the idea that a JW style action cue can be well composed in a couple of hours is just silly.


----------



## Cinesamples (Apr 12, 2008)

anyone can learn to program samples, that is a lesser skill.
To write like that man, it is not learn able.

Besides most composers have teams of synthistrators to do demos or to tighten their files.

He does it all with a piano and pencil (the rumour is he doesn't even write with the piano much, he can just write it down)


----------



## JohnG (Apr 12, 2008)

I hear that James Newton Howard wrote 168 minutes of music for King Kong in five weeks and a good number of those cues were complex, action / battle tour de forces. Peter Jackson, according to the "making of" film, reviewed most or all the cues, so it was far from a "whatever you can get to me is ok" work process.

I don't care how many synth / conductor / whatever guys you have, because I don't really think that's the hard part. Sometimes I've had a lot of help and most of the time I don't; for me, it's not the help, it's the writing that stretches me. 

JNH's sketches are amazingly full (though, to be clear, I have never personally seen any KK sketches) and that amount of good music in that time impresses me even if you are humming into a tape player. And some of the pieces in that score are dazzling (Beauty Killed the Beast etc.). 

I've seen some of JW's Star Wars sketches and those are complete as well.

I believe that part of why one has to keep working hard and learning is that speed is a great helper of creativity. If one gets too bogged down in the technique or the technology, I don't think it's possible to create at the level these guys do.


----------



## Daryl (Apr 13, 2008)

Ashermusic @ Sat Apr 12 said:


> artsoundz @ Sat Apr 12 said:
> 
> 
> > I dont read his posts this way, Jay. I think it's obvious what his point is- JW would be challenged to program a mockup of what was written that day- especially at the level of Olivier's example.
> ...


I never said that I, or anyone else could compose a cue like this in 2 hours. I was comparing the time spent writing out a short score to the time to program it. Please read the original post, look up the difference between the words quality and quantity, and then don't be such a silly billy.

D


----------



## Hannes_F (Apr 13, 2008)

Hey people, don't hack on Daryl here. He knows his stuff, so this all is a misunderstanding. Daryl, maybe it would be helpful if you could define what exactly you mean by "short score", and then the problem is probably solved.


----------



## Justus (Apr 13, 2008)

Please bear in mind, that John Williams had an orchestrator who brought part of JWs sketches to life.


----------



## Frederick Russ (Apr 13, 2008)

One of the best JW style scores I've heard recently was Thomas J's Mojo Madness. The stuff he's doing lately using sample libraries along with superb programming is amazing. Its very rare that an individual can score and orchestrate this well but is also one of the best midi mockup symphonic composers anywhere.

JW has a wealth of past experiences working with live orchestras interpreting and performing difficult pieces from Debussy to Stavinsky. When asked if working with a live orchestra had changed his approach to writing during a recent workshop, he admitted that it had impacted his writing and approach in many ways. JW borrows a lot from the masters using their music vocabulary and language and forges pretty fantastic cues.

I think its safe to say that we all basically agree that finding realistic sonics and programming them via midi in an effective manner in sample libraries and sequencers is time consuming. The creation of a complex score should not be discounted however. Essentially I believe that if everyone had the same sample libraries and programming skills, the true tie breaker is in the writing and orchestration. The conception of the intricacies of many of JW's cues - fully realized, harmonized and orchestrated - have, for better or for worse - set new benchmarks for symphonic composers of film - midi or real. Not everybody can do this kind of style well so I applaud anyone trying to give it sincere shot like DeOlivier. Nice job!


----------



## Justus (Apr 13, 2008)

JohnG @ Sun Apr 13 said:


> I'm sorry but this sentiment, often repeated, is just wrong when it comes to most of the Big Guys / Gals.
> 
> I have seen John Williams' Star Wars sketches and there is nothing absent -- every articulation, wind line, percussion event -- everything is there. Orchestrating for John Williams or James Newton Howard under those circumstances is, by and large, a glorified copying exercise as I'm sure their orchestrators would freely acknowledge.
> 
> ...



I didn't want to insult anybody, I'm a JW fan myself.

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=VgCveDXZPCo


----------



## JohnG (Apr 13, 2008)

[/quote]

I didn't want to insult anybody, I'm a JW fan myself.

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=VgCveDXZPCo[/quote]

I am sure you didn't mean to offend and I didn't mean to make it sound like melodrama and attack anyone either, including you. Sorry to get so over the top.

But I very much enjoyed the film and thank you for posting it.

If you watch your YouTube movie, you can see how much is on the page when the camera is behind JW. JW is clearly giving very explicit instructions to his orchestrator. Besides, the whole video sequence looks staged to me, not an actual working session. Either way, JW is telling him exactly what to do with regard to orchestration, even down to the register of the celeste, for example. He is polite, but he is directing, not asking, in my view anyway.

It is actually the voice-over that implies that the orchestrator is relieving the composer of a lot of work, as though the orchestration. The voice-over says that the orchestrator is going to "arrange" the music "for orchestra," when in fact it looks fairly complete already. In the few glimpses one gets, t looks like an eight-stave sketch and it looks busy, though of course it's hard to see. Besides, I am cheating, as I have seen grainy photocopies of some of the Star Wars sketches and what's in the sketches sounds to me note-for-note what's in the score.

In my experience (and from looking over others' shoulders), the orchestrator's job in Los Angeles is largely one of execution and transcribing what the composer has communicated, both on paper and verbally, and only marginally creative. Sometimes suggesting mutes or tremelo or some other articulation or re-voicing, while helpful, is not that big a contribution, in my view. This despite the fact that I feel pathetically gratified when I make such a suggestion that the composer adopts.

Europe vs. US?

I am starting to wonder whether part of this difference of view (if there is one) could arise from the difference in function between what an orchestrator is expected to do in Europe compared with the US, or at least Los Angeles. Could it be that, in Europe, the orchestrator's job is more extensive -- like an arranger and orchestrator combined -- contrasted with the small number of decisions that orchestrators make in Los Angeles, which, in my experience are relatively trivial most of the time?

I am not of course suggesting that European composers don't do as much as American composers or that American orchestrators don't sometimes arrange minimal sketches. However, it does seem to me that the European contributors to this and other forums have often described the orchestration function as more involved than it has been in my experience here in LA.

I don't have any experience orchestrating in Europe, however, so this is pure speculation and I am probably talking rubbish.


----------

