# Alternatives to Cubase (for PC)?



## Carles (Feb 25, 2016)

I was wondering what could be a good alternative for Cubase running on PC.

My concerns are mostly about MIDI work, being audio not so important and ideally it should works well with VEPro.

One of the points why I still stick around with Cubase is expression maps, but if I understood right it seems that there are nowadays other 3rd part alternatives to expression maps out there?

So, my main points are, ability to trigger articulations from a single track, practical CC editing and VEPro compatibility.

In the worst (financial) scenario I could consider using my current PC as slave and buy the most inexpensive Apple machine as far as it can handle the projects (considering that the heavy load will be handled by the slave).

What could be worth to check out in your opinion?

Cheers,
Carles


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## InLight-Tone (Feb 25, 2016)

Nothing better for doing midi work in my opinion. Maybe the next super efficient DP? Why do you want to jump ship?


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## Carles (Feb 25, 2016)

That's what I thought, I'm really happy with Cubase midi part, but at some point (possibly since the ASIO Guard 2 implementation) I find myself too often spending more time trying to solve issues than writing music, and every upgrade since then, rather than bringing solutions seems to make everything worst and worst, which is non sense as I do not enjoy with the technical side of music production but writing music. Using Cubase is becoming an annoying experience plus the feeling that I cannot rely any more on it. Absolutely don't wish to spend more and more time trying to understand what's under the hood and how so solve the issues. I'm more a man of "plug and play" as far as it works I'm not so concerned about new flashing features, especially if these cause problems to the core functionality, while Steinberg seems not to care much about users complaints (this is actually coming from another thread).
I just want to have the opportunity to use all my little spare time to write music.


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## muziksculp (Feb 25, 2016)

Hi Carles,

Have you checked Presonus *Studio One Pro 3 *? and the new Version S1 3.2 was just released today.

http://studioone.presonus.com/

I am primarily a Cubase user, but just recently added S1 Pro V3, as an alternative DAW, mainly because of what I keep hearing about it being great for fast workflow, and I also feel that it is quite closely related to Cubase, since it is developed by the former Nuendo team. I need to do a bit of study on S1 V3, and also check out what version 3.2 offers.

By the way, I also read a lot of positive comments by former Cubase users who switched to S1, mainly the biggest gain seems to be in the great and speedy workflow, and relatively easy to use and learn.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Carles (Feb 25, 2016)

muziksculp said:


> Have you checked Presonus *Studio One Pro 3 *? and the new Version S1 3.2 was just released today.


Looks great but cannot find any equivalent to expression maps (a must for me). I've found a replacement called SkiSwitcher out there but apparently only Logic Pro X is supported. It would take quite a while until I can save enough to afford any Apple machine :(


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## germancomponist (Feb 25, 2016)

I am still working on a big project in Cubase 5


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## emid (Feb 25, 2016)

Carles, expression mapping is exclusive to Cubase only. All other daws if they have, which they apparently don't, are work arounds only. You will be disappointed unless either you stick to cubase or withdraw from this criteria. Apart from not having expression map, Studio one is great, I use it. It's in evolution period now and evolving with every update. But the mock ups you do certainly require extensive approach to articulations etc which is only possible in cubase the way you want to do. Fact is you will need to compromise if you want to switch to any other daw, sadly. Otherwise, try the demo version of S1. You never know you might like it's robust and logical work flow.


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## muziksculp (Feb 25, 2016)

Carles said:


> Looks great but cannot find any equivalent to expression maps (a must for me). I've found a replacement called SkiSwitcher out there but apparently only Logic Pro X is supported. It would take quite a while until I can save enough to afford any Apple machine :(



If Expression Maps are a high-priority for your workflow, then I would say Cubase is the King of DAWs for that. I have not researched third-party alternatives that could work with other DAWs, (i.e. S1, or others), I would stick to Cubase if exp-maps are a must have feature. (at least for the time being). 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Altine Jackson (Feb 25, 2016)

A built in expression map equivalent will likely be your pain point, Carles. Your other requirements aren't particularly difficult to fulfill.

VEP will generally help with stability for a lot of DAWs (while if you were to load a huge orchestral template without VEP, many DAWs don't play quite as nice as Cubase... though it's certainly workable). On Windows, Cubase is definitely the most robust in midi editing options, but Studio One, DP, and even Reaper can get the job done without major pain. If I ever do switch away from Cubase it will likely be to Studio One, since I have no need for a Notation view, and its workflow does seem extremely straightforward.

I'm afraid I don't have much to offer though, since expression maps are the main thing keeping me tied to Cubase as well. The new edge-of-window mouseover "feature" in 8 (or was it 8.5?) has been particularly maddening...

(Edit: With 3 of us posting about it within minutes, I think it's safe to say no one knows of a Windows Expression Map alternative!)


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## muziksculp (Feb 25, 2016)

Actually, I was wondering, what is holding back other DAWs, especially S1 from implementing an expression-map equivalent ? Some type of patent, or is it just a matter of priorities ? I would think if Presonus got enough S1 users requesting Exp-Map type of feature, they could deliver it via an update.


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## Altine Jackson (Feb 25, 2016)

Last I remember they have a feature request system on their forums similar to the bug reporting process for Steinberg. There were a few pages of support for it, but I don't remember there being very much traction on the thread. This was a few years ago, so it obviously hasn't led to any official implementation yet.

That said, if this and past threads on VI Control are any indication, Expression Maps are the main thing keeping many composers from jumping ship. Presonus (and other developers) might be more interested if they were aware of that.

Looks like S1 just added VCA faders with the recent update. That's a nice plus, considering how buggy they've been in Cubase for years.


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## Carles (Feb 25, 2016)

muziksculp said:


> Actually, I was wondering, what is holding back other DAWs, especially S1 from implementing an expression-map equivalent ? Some type of patent, or is it just a matter of priorities ? I would think if Presonus got enough S1 users requesting Exp-Map type of feature, they could deliver it via an update.


I've found people requesting "expression maps" in the Presonus forum in 2012-2013 but obviously it didn't happen.
Perhaps if they come from the Nuendo team (Steinberg as far as I understand) they are already accustomed to epically ignore the user requests too :D

I don't think it's a patent like issue (unless you'll do an exact replica of it and if ever patented) because SkiSwitcher is covering that area, so it seems doable.


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## emid (Feb 25, 2016)

muziksculp said:


> Actually, I was wondering, what is holding back other DAWs, especially S1 from implementing an expression-map equivalent ? Some type of patent, or is it just a matter of priorities ? I would think if Presonus got enough S1 users requesting Exp-Map type of feature, they could deliver it via an update.



3.2 is basically to compete with PT. Presonus is (I think) not looking at cubase or interested in complex midi features. Like Altine said, I also voted for expression maps in that thread but forum is more of audio guys than midi. And like Carles said, makers are previous Steinberg team so expect monopoly.


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## Carles (Feb 25, 2016)

Altine Jackson said:


> That said, if this and past threads on VI Control are any indication, Expression Maps are the main thing keeping many composers from jumping ship.


I cannot speak for other, but in my case definitely is the only reason to don't cross-grade right away (well, after testing how my VEPro template will perform testing on the 30 day fully functional demo).


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## Mystic (Feb 25, 2016)

There has been a push for Cakewalk to get expression maps in Sonar. I'm hopeful now that they do monthly updates with new features and fixes.


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## Guy Rowland (Feb 25, 2016)

My own pain point (to borrow Altine's phrase) is EuCon control of midi CCs, rather than expression maps - I've never got on with Exprrssion Maps at all. But same outcome - frustratingly, Cubsse is the only game in town.


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## Ethos (Feb 26, 2016)

What kind of problems are you having lately with Cubase? Is it possible it's not Cubase but rather some bad drivers or hardware? Maybe you'd have a renewed interest in sticking with Cubase if your problems could be solved. ?


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## Ethos (Feb 26, 2016)

Guy Rowland said:


> My own pain point (to borrow Altine's phrase) is EuCon control of midi CCs, rather than expression maps - I've never got on with Exprrssion Maps at all. But same outcome - frustratingly, Cubsse is the only game in town.



Yes, yes, yes! I love my EuCon control of CCs (via quick controls)! Being able to automate everything from Vibrato, to Dynamics with a physical motorized faster is an amazing thing!


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## DynamicK (Feb 26, 2016)

Why don't use use an earlier version of Cubase? AFAIK expression maps were introduced in v6. I have decided that 7.5 is going to be the last version I buy. I did install v6.5 recently, but missed the Visibility and Mixer from 7.5


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## InLight-Tone (Feb 26, 2016)

If you really want to jump ship I think your best bets are Studio One 3 (too bad the latest update wasn't more midi/composition focused) or DP. Still for me, I would miss expression maps, drum maps, logical editor presets and the ability to trigger them from a button on Lemur, chord track which I've found very useful and a host of other things...


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## Markus Kohlprath (Feb 26, 2016)

Carles, did you renew your template from scratch after upgrading to a new version of cubase? I' m astonished how many bugs and crashes disappear after simply rebuilding the template. Not particulary fun to do but seems to be unfortunately necessary. There is a thread on this here somewhere. 
I doubt there really are other daws that don't have their issues as well now and then and I had my annoying experiences with cubase as well.


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## Robert Cote (Feb 26, 2016)

You might consider trying Reaper with this plug in to address the expression map functionality:

http://www.syntheticorchestra.com/articulatereaper/

It will cost you nothing but time to try it out because of Reaper's extremely generous trial policy.

Disclaimer: I've used (and loved) Reaper for several years, but haven't tried the plugin.


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## lucor (Feb 26, 2016)

I'm in a similar boat as you, Carles. I've been pretty disappointed with Cubase lately and am looking around for alternatives. So far I've tried Reaper, Digital Performer and Studio One and out of the 3 Studio One was definitely my favourite. As a long-time Cubase user it felt very familiar, but somehow alot faster and more fun to use. Unfortunately it still misses 2 major features for me, which is Expression maps (you can name notes in the piano roll, which is a somewhat acceptable alternative for libraries that already support keyswitching, but it's not ideal (see the picture)) and an easier implementation of deactivating tracks (it works somehow right now, but it's rather cumbersome), which prevented me from switching for good.
But with how things are going at Steinberg right now I can guarantee you that I'm the fuck outta here as soon as these 2 issues are fixed, because apart from that Studio One just feels awesome. They just released a MAJOR update for free, which would probably have gone through as Cubase 9 and cost 100 bucks at Steinberg. It really pisses me off that I know that I have to wait until December to see any new features in Cubase and have to pay for it, while in the meantime we don't even get major bugs fixed that have been there for years. If Steinberg doesn't change their way of doing things very soon, they'll definitely lose me as a customer. Which is sad, because even with all it's problems I still love the program and would like to continue working with it.


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## Ethos (Feb 26, 2016)

Can you explain more about what is going on in that picture? I'm curious about some details regarding how that keyswitching works.


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## Vin (Feb 27, 2016)

Studio One Pro seems to be the future, it has so much potential. I'm a long time Cubase user (still on 6.5.5 because of that atrocious new mixer mainly), but I'm disappointed with their development direction (new, to me mostly useless features like chords tracks and new bloatware) instead of improving bugs and functionality. Studio One, on the other hand, looks extremely promising. If only they put some work in the MIDI department, I'd switch most likely.


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## Carles (Feb 27, 2016)

Many interesting points here guys.
After reading all, I'd say that the formulas that would best fit my bill would be, or back to version 7 (don't know if laugh or cry on this) or an hypothetic Studio One supporting "expression maps" (that solution from Blake for FL and Reaper looks very interesting) and some more MIDI implementation would be always welcome too, although I saw in some videos quite interesting things already.
I would kill for having a bezier-type CC data deformer vs the current linear one in Cubase (which is more than appreciated, all functions from that "deforming box" actually), or even better, CC data expressed by bezier curves directly (super smooth maximum resolution with lesser data points. The most basic toolset from Adobe Illustrator would do real magic here).

It seems reasonable for me to revert to Cubase 7 for now, and keep an eye on what's next with Studio One (it looks really tempting to me).


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## Jason_D (Feb 27, 2016)

I switched to Reaper from Cubase about a year ago. They are similar in a lot of ways and I found learning Reaper to be worthwhile. How do you have your expression maps setup?


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## MrCambiata (Feb 27, 2016)

I actually switched from Studio One to Cubase because I needed a DAW with notation capabilities. I also tried DP and was blown away by its transcription engine. I could literally record myself in realtime and give the score that comes out to a pianist and he would be able to play it. Or export it to Sibelius and make the few corrections that were needed. But I didn't like the workflow...


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## Daryl (Feb 28, 2016)

TBH I would just use the version of Cubase that works best. There is no point in changing to a sequencer with fewer features, just somehow to punish SB. I would think along these lines:

What features are not working in Cubase?
What features do I currently use every day?
Which other sequencer has the features in 2?
Which other sequencer has the features in 1, but have actually got them working?
The other thing to consider is that Steinberg has a notation program being released alter this year. Whilst it won't be as fully featured as Sibelius, and doesn't have a magic link to Cubase, that is the future. If you intend to work with notation and a sequencer, Cubase will be the way to go.


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## AllanH (Feb 28, 2016)

Another reasonable choice it Cakewalk Sonar (which I primarily use). For what it is, it's quite effective. I'm not sure they really focus much on the higher-end needs so you may find things like e.g. Notation lacking. Midi implementation is rock-solid, and Sonar performs very well under load. Sonar has a very active and helpful community.


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## Ethos (Feb 28, 2016)

I used to use Sonar back in the day. I quite liked it. I think the only reason I went back to Cubase was for Expression Maps.


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## AllanH (Feb 28, 2016)

I've been looking at Cubase for the same reason. It would generally appear that Cubase in the better DAW for orchestral music, but I don't have recent first-hand experience with Cubase. For what Sonar does, however, it's excellent and inexpensive.


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## JohnG (Feb 28, 2016)

I like Digital Performer but really -- never used anything else!

I would say, however, that recent versions of most DAW software borrow aggressively from competitor DAW software, so that many of them offer the same features, sometimes with a different name. Sometimes I read people saying "Sonar lacks this" or "Cubase lacks that" when actually that is old news and they have picked up ideas in new releases that perhaps weren't there before.

Among other things, I like DP's ability to make up your own key combinations to address any item, so you can customise it easily.


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## samphony (Feb 29, 2016)

Carles said:


> I've found people requesting "expression maps" in the Presonus forum in 2012-2013 but obviously it didn't happen.
> Perhaps if they come from the Nuendo team (Steinberg as far as I understand) they are already accustomed to epically ignore the user requests too :D
> 
> I don't think it's a patent like issue (unless you'll do an exact replica of it and if ever patented) because SkiSwitcher is covering that area, so it seems doable.




I've even created a UXD Mockup for the PreSonus team

http://answers.presonus.com/3240/fr-articulation-editor?show=3240#q3240

But to be honest. Depending on how deep you wanna go midi wise it's probably better to stay with cubase or try digital performer.

By the way if you know cubase well you will be up and running in studio one in a couple of days. You can even import track archives from cubase (without assignments)

To me studio one is a daw that wants you to transform instruments/midi into audio ASAP. The transform feature is very well implemented. If you can get by with one articulation per track, no surround, no cool show hide features beside the typical track list, no XML export, no score editor etc then studio one might be a good alternative. As a Logic Pro veteran I enjoy working with that software and I hope they will focus on composer related workflows and score editor integration once the EDM dust has settled  as long as good film workflows/track templates/project import/ show and hide features are not implemented it stays my prototyping and mixing environment.


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## germancomponist (Feb 29, 2016)

Don't forget it: Steinberg is bought by Yamaha!


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## Carles (Feb 29, 2016)

samphony said:


> I've even created a UXD Mockup for the PreSonus team
> 
> http://answers.presonus.com/3240/fr-articulation-editor?show=3240#q3240


Wow, that looks really good. They should seriously consider it.


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## Ethos (Feb 29, 2016)

samphony said:


> I've even created a UXD Mockup for the PreSonus team
> 
> http://answers.presonus.com/3240/fr-articulation-editor?show=3240#q3240
> 
> .



Ok, if they implemented that I'd probably switch in a heartbeat.


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## samphony (Feb 29, 2016)

Carles said:


> Wow, that looks really good. They should seriously consider it.



I think the more composers support and explain what is missing why such and such features would help the higher the chances of such features to become reality. 

The V3 cycle seems more focused on production and song writing. But as some of you might know Presonus acquired the company behind Notion a while ago and I wouldn't be surprised if a tighter integration of notion and score related features are becoming reality in the future.


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## samphony (Feb 29, 2016)

Carles said:


> Wow, that looks really good. They should seriously consider it.



Feel free to vote.


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## Carles (Feb 29, 2016)

Done. I did not realized about the voting thing. It requires to be registered user but no problem, last night had to register in order to download the demo so it's all fine.


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## Carles (Mar 1, 2016)

Daryl said:


> There is no point in changing to a sequencer with fewer features, just somehow to punish SB.



Daryl, mine is not a punishing attitude, nothing "visceral" on that but just practical reasons.
I find your approach correct, and that's perhaps why.

You point number one already defines the situation, just is not about features but basic performance what's wrong.

Not happy with the idea of the uncomfortable feeling when learning a new software nor with rewriting hundreds of "expression maps" but if basic performance is not working well, then what can I say, I need to keep focus on writing music rather than suffering technical issues. However no alternative so far anyway so I have to stick around with Cubase for a while.

In my own experience (and happy for the lucky users that don't) Cubase is getting worst and worst in every new release and reading Guillermo proudly say that updates to fixes come out about every 2.5 months is not helping to me. In my experience, if a professional graphic application is released with flawed core functionality a hot fix comes out in no time. Within a professional environment 2.5 months to get something essential fixed is not reasonable, a total game breaker and current performance of Cubase is lamentable (to me) and even had to pay for such downgrade.
Under my "Aspergerian" logic all alarms are telling me loud "run away from that".

And not blaming on the programmers, I'm pretty sure they are doing their best, but directions are to me so wrong that makes me feel that any alternatives would be a more logical way to go if I want to rely on a more stable platform now and in the future. Within a professional environment fixes comes first, core stability is much more important than features, and that's the point that Steinberg current direction do not want to understand, it seems.

Regarding the upcoming notation software I also had faith on that. But under the light of the latest happenings I'll rather wait for a while after the release. Once out for a while and proven to be at least, stable, and if I really need it, then I'll happily jump into that boat but meanwhile it won't be me who will pay for "beta-testing flashy premature material" anymore.


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## Daryl (Mar 1, 2016)

Carles, I agree with your assessment. Which is why I use Nuendo 6 and Sibelius 6. There is no point in updating to something I don't need.


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## muk (Mar 1, 2016)

Don't expect too much too soon from the Steinberg notation app. They have an excellent team, but it takes time to build all the features thoroughly. Daniel Spreadbury made it clear that version 1 is focussed on core business, which is - notation. Following his blog it's quite clear that the team uses a lot of energy to come up with a sophisticated notation engine, and a clever engraving rules implementation. He also made clear that DAW integration is not something they can extend many resources on right now. That will come further down the line. Meaning it will take time, most probably years (!), until the program can exceed what's currently possible.

I'm certain the Steinberg team will come up with a very good notation program. But expecting that it'll blow everything else out of the water with the first version is not realistic. It's about evolution, not revolution. It will take time to grow.


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## Carles (Mar 1, 2016)

Daryl said:


> Carles, I agree with your assessment. Which is why I use Nuendo 6 and Sibelius 6. There is no point in updating to something I don't need.


Correct. That's smart.
I wish I could get back and stay with Cubase 7, not perfect but I was able to focus on music. Now I have a good bunch of projects which I cannot revert back, and hardly move forward.


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 1, 2016)

There are two main reasons I don't want to go backwards - 1) disabled tracks, even with the current glitches, is transformative and 2) can't open newer projects in old.

FWIW, I just updated by RME Babyface drivers and gadzooks they've performed some kind of ASIO miracle at some point in the last 6 months. Cubase CPU use seems to have roughly halved, based on loading a few recent projects and zipping around the tracks to give AG2 a workout.


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## Daryl (Mar 1, 2016)

muk said:


> I'm certain the Steinberg team will come up with a very good notation program. But expecting that it'll blow everything else out of the water with the first version is not realistic. It's about evolution, not revolution. It will take time to grow.


I guess it will depend on peoples needs. I fully expect it to exceed Sibelius for what I want. Obviously there will be a few things missing on first release, but the interesting thing will be to see what those things are. If it's Hit Points, for example, I don't care. If it's Tuplets, I do.


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## Daryl (Mar 1, 2016)

Carles said:


> I wish I could get back and stay with Cubase 7...


Well, there are ways back, but all are time sensitive so it may not be worth putting the effort in.


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## Daryl (Mar 1, 2016)

Guy Rowland said:


> FWIW, I just updated by RME Babyface drivers and gadzooks they've performed some kind of ASIO miracle at some point in the last 6 months. Cubase CPU use seems to have roughly halved, based on loading a few recent projects and zipping around the tracks to give AG2 a workout.


Interesting. I might update my Multiface drivers in a couple of weeks and see if there is any difference. Mind you, I don't need a performance increase, and the current drivers are 100% stable for me, so I might not. Then again, we'll be starting to use Pro Tools 12, so I might need to. Aarrrggghhhh..... Decisions, decisions, decisions.


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## Carles (Mar 1, 2016)

Daryl said:


> Well, there are ways back, but all are time sensitive so it may not be worth putting the effort in.


True. The very first way that came to my mind, since I tend so save incrementally some of the projects could still exist in v7 or 7.5, then I could export the data from 8.5, back to the v7 project, clean all data except the structure and paste the tracks from the midifile, but some important data won't be there, so I should re-assign all articulations which would be again quite time consuming and never sure if the structure would be exactly the same.
Meanwhile, a contract waiting and I being unable to deliver tracks free of clicks.
Have ordered a replacement for my also Steinberg audio interface to see if by chance better drivers could solve or minimize the problem.
Yes, have tried everything, an OS upgrade, all drivers of everything in their latest version, energy saving plans favouring performance, firmware updates, etc. Did run the diagnostic tools as per the Native Instruments video (pretty useful to understand possible culprits BTW).
And my question is why should I spend such amount of time (and money) in order to have the performance I had 1.5 years ago with exactly the same hardware... nonsense, isn't it?


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 1, 2016)

Daryl said:


> Interesting. I might update my Multiface drivers in a couple of weeks and see if there is any difference. Mind you, I don't need a performance increase, and the current drivers are 100% stable for me, so I might not. Then again, we'll be starting to use Pro Tools 12, so I might need to. Aarrrggghhhh..... Decisions, decisions, decisions.



FWIW in PT12 I don't sense much difference, but I never look at the CPU in PT unless something's gone horribly wrong. Because I'm not recording anything other than a mic, working with audio not midi and use delay compensation, CPU is nearly always about 10%. If you genuinely have no need for any performance increase in Cubase you may as well stay where you are I guess, but I've heard nothing but raves from the latest RME drivers.

Carles, I came very close to getting a Steinberg interface a few years ago, but after a lot of forum trawling I decided their drivers and support were poor, so went for the RME instead. It's a shot in the dark as to whether or not it would fix your problems - and an expensive one at that - but it's possible. The ideal I guess is to find someone local with an RME and buy them beer to borrow it for a couple of hours (and make sure they have latest firmware)...


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## Carles (Mar 1, 2016)

Guy, yes, the only "negative" thing I've ever read about RME is monetary-wise  and certainly that argument is the reason of not having one right away. That's very far from what I can afford currently.

Edit: No, unfortunately I don't know any local with such a thing. It costs around $1,500.00 here in NZ (NZD). Certainly a lot.


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## PeterKorcek (Mar 1, 2016)

I think Studio one 3 is the next best choice if someone preferred Cubase workflow before. I have it and quite like it, although my main DAW is and will be probably Cubase despite its flaws.

Regarding RME, thanks for pointing out that the new drivers should be excellent, Guy. Not that I have problems now, but if they could bring down the CPU usage, all the better.


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## SymphonicSamples (Mar 1, 2016)

Hey Carles , what OS are you currently on ?


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## Carles (Mar 1, 2016)

SymphonicSamples said:


> Hey Carles , what OS are you currently on ?


Hey Matt!
Windows 10. Made no difference regarding music applications.


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## DaddyO (Mar 1, 2016)

Carles said:


> Hey Matt!
> Windows 10. Made no difference regarding music applications.



Did you do a clean install or an upgrade?


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## Carles (Mar 1, 2016)

DaddyO said:


> Did you do a clean install or an upgrade?


Upgrade. But notice that problems also on Windows 7, also my templates are on VEPro.
The first type of clicks I've got first, are caused by something else (I use expression maps on almost every track) Every note with no articulation assigned is causing a click when the note ends, and it gets rendered. By adding a note-off message in every single expression map (and I have quite a few) plus the annoying task of caring that every single note has an articulation assigned, ever if consuming extra time at least I can have some control about. That was introduced in 7.5 if I recall well.
The problem is when "hunting" those clicks, the new ones come on top (because of performance degradation) so at some point is hard to tell which is which, so I have to playback the same fragment several times to figure out if the click/s is/are from the "embeded" type or the "random" ones (some extra time needed), plus some specific instruments are also rendering wrong (but only when rendering), plus since one of the interface driver updates, some extra clicks were introduced (even if the DAW is turned off) so cannot trust my checking even on rendered files (even more additional extra time wasted). In the process of updating/upgrading forward rather than reverting back the very first moment I got any issues, kept going to higher versions, from Cubase 7, to 7.5, to 8, to 8.5 up to upgrading to Windows 10 and the latest Yamaha-Steinberg drivers didn't fix the issue either. Just getting worst since 7.5.
Did run diagnostics tools and results were that I can run realtime audio (even were good results) but the playback and render clicks still there. At some point I'm getting paranoid with every high frequency, even if is just a high register harp note.
I've just received a new audio interface and I will run some tests tonight.


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## samphony (Mar 1, 2016)

Carles said:


> Upgrade. But notice that problems also on Windows 7, also my templates are on VEPro.
> The first type of clicks I've got first, are caused by something else (I use expression maps on almost every track) Every note with no articulation assigned is causing a click when the note ends, and it gets rendered. By adding a note-off message in every single expression map (and I have quite a few) plus the annoying task of caring that every single note has an articulation assigned, ever if consuming extra time at least I can have some control about. That was introduced in 7.5 if I recall well.
> The problem is when "hunting" those clicks, the new ones come on top (because of performance degradation) so at some point is hard to tell which is which, so I have to playback the same fragment several times to figure out if the click/s is/are from the "embeded" type or the "random" ones (some extra time needed), plus some specific instruments are also rendering wrong (but only when rendering), plus since one of the interface driver updates, some extra clicks were introduced (even if the DAW is turned off) so cannot trust my checking even on rendered files (even more additional extra time wasted). In the process of updating/upgrading forward rather than reverting back the very first moment I got any issues, kept going to higher versions, from Cubase 7, to 7.5, to 8, to 8.5 up to upgrading to Windows 10 and the latest Yamaha-Steinberg drivers didn't fix the issue either. Just getting worst since 7.5.
> Did run diagnostics tools and results were that I can run realtime audio (even were good results) but the playback and render clicks still there. At some point I'm getting paranoid with every high frequency, even if is just a high register harp note.
> I've just received a new audio interface and I will run some tests tonight.



Have you tried to roll back to an earlier VEPRO version?


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## Carles (Mar 1, 2016)

Nope. VSL used to have visible links to previous versions but since they did updated the site I couldn't find that any more. Anyway at some point I'm unable to remember what it was the latest correlation Cubase/VEPro working with no issues (for Cubase it was pre 7.5 or earlier 7.5 for sure, but since I have VEPro configured to update automatically, who knows. All was working so fine before that I could never preview such a spiral of problems).


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## Carles (Mar 1, 2016)

Btw, did run a quick test in lunch time with the small and inexpensive Focusrite Scarlett, and while CPU performance seems very similar I've been unable to hear clicks when playing a track (in the second play once all samples got loaded). Can't wait to reach home tonight and test it for a while with several projects and nocturnal silence.


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## gbar (Mar 1, 2016)

Mystic said:


> There has been a push for Cakewalk to get expression maps in Sonar. I'm hopeful now that they do monthly updates with new features and fixes.




Good luck with that. Last time I asked Craig got nasty on me.


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## Mystic (Mar 1, 2016)

gbar said:


> Good luck with that. Last time I asked Craig got nasty on me.


Craig is a wealth of knowledge but sometimes he can be a downright prat. He has an answer for everything even if it's one we already know and don't accept as a solution. Really annoying.


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## DaddyO (Mar 2, 2016)

Thanks Carles for your detailed response to my question.


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## miguel88 (Mar 10, 2016)

recently I found this stuff
Which makes in studio one the option to switching articulations, not is vst expression but it close


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## IoannisGutevas (Mar 10, 2016)

Iam seriously thinking of selling my copy of cubase.

I've been using it since version 6 and asking for 2 things. Better midi editing and more importantly (especially in the late versions), to be able when i have setup a multi-instrument kontakt and select a MIDI channel from the project window the corresponding audio output to be selected in the mix console and NOT the midi channel.

I tried to work with ableton which midi editing is a breeze but the mix console that it has and the whole workflow always made me go back to cubase. After i read all your posts and saw the miguel's video im almost sold to try Studio One!.

I even found this a few mins ago:



It seems everything i wanted in a daw! It most certainly deserves a try.


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## samphony (Mar 10, 2016)

miguel88 said:


> recently I found this stuff
> Which makes in studio one the option to switching articulations, not is vst expression but it close




That's the tool I use since 6 years or longer. Still you have to record key switches.


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