# New Roland A-88mk2 is ALMOST perfect



## charlieclouser

https://www.roland.com/global/products/a-88mk2/
88 keys, square shape and flat surfaces, nothing in the center for those (like me) who want to put their computer keyboard there, as compact "as possible" (but still chunky as all weighted keyboards), adjustable response (but probably not mechanically adjustable feel), 8 software assignable knobs.... looks good so far.

Add in 16 banks for the 8 drum pads which can be configured to send notes, CC messages, or program changes when pressed, and have assignable colors and you have a nifty 8-pad mini-panel for your key switches. Great!

.... and then you see the freakin' Roland pitch+mod wiggle stick, which makes using orchestral libraries that use mod wheel for dynamics control utterly impossible.

So. Close. But completely unusable. When will Roland get a clue?


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## Seycara

Agreed, whoever designed that modwheel has no idea what they're doing.


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## Dewdman42

hmm, how much is it?


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## Jdiggity1

You don't use faders, charlie?


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## Dewdman42

despite the mod wheel and the $1000 price tag I might return the LX88 I just recently bought and wait for that one. I have other faders I can use. I love the ergonomics of this keyboard. will git on my desk much better.


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## Wunderhorn

Why do some companies insist on junky alternatives to the trusted mod wheel? There is a reason why the mod wheel is standard. I completely agree. Attractive controller keyboard with a dumb stick that makes it unusable.


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## chimuelo

Ironically the perfect Master MIDI Controller for performers and composers has been discontinued.
Viscount’s Physis K4. You can buy the EX version but that has expensive weighted action, crappy sounds, etc.

I bought a spare, and enough critical spare parts to keep me happy for another decade.

Im always looking for something better, but nothing out there was built for DAW’s and Live Performance as well as this beast.
Wish there was as I get nervous when such great products get discontinued, but basically they seem to be driving consumers to the more expensive model.

I’d love a thin controller like this but 2 x 1/4” pedals and a single USB just isn’t enough.

I think I’ll keep pestering Ulli Behringer for the dream Master MIDI Controller.
He plays, he’s see trends but most importantly he listens, even to whiny guys sniveling about costs.


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## charlieclouser

Jdiggity1 said:


> You don't use faders, charlie?



I do use faders, but the mere presence of that Roland wiggle-stick on an active MIDI input creates problems. It's quite likely to send "value=1, value=0" when you play too hard, bump something, etc. Completely unacceptable piece of tech.

For years I used the Roland RS-9 synth as a master keyboard, which is an ugly gold keyboard with a JV-1080 synth engine (that I never used even once), a few handy assignable knobs, 8 quick-preset buttons right in the middle which can be configured to change the outgoing MIDI channels on the fly (perfect for a sort of key-switching thing where you have different articulations on MIDI channels 1-8), and an amazing and perfect (for me) keyboard action that is half synth, half piano. The keyboard had piano-shaped keys with the posh red felt strip at the top, but it was not a hammer-action key bed - it had a luxurious but still fast feel. I loved that thing...

.... after I opened it up and disconnected the cable from that damned wiggle-stick.

Another peeve about the A-88mk2 is that the knobs should be ABOVE the drum pads. Idiots.

Not that it will matter or help, but I'll be sure to ream the booth staff at NAMM, though I don't think I have any friends at Roland that would make my ranting matter any.


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## bvaughn0402

chimuelo said:


> Ironically the perfect Master MIDI Controller for performers and composers has been discontinued.
> Viscount’s Physis K4. You can buy the EX version but that has expensive weighted action, crappy sounds, etc.



This site makes it seem that the K4 and K4 EX have the same Fatar setup. There is another version of K4 with a different one. Wonder what is up with that?









Fatar keyboard and other actions


A post at the Musiker-Board was created by a user who was kind enough to do exhaustive research on the actions of various pro keyboards and digital pianos and share with the world. I have always been obsessed with the actions of keyboards and how natural they feel to me when playing different styles




billfulton.com


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## sostenuto

Just when I can almost use NI _ KK - S49 funky touch MW thingy !


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## Nick Batzdorf

How sensitive are the drum pads? That's been my complaint about all of them I've seen so far - you have to slam them to get a response. And it's why I like the Keith McMillen BopPad so much - you can play it with your fingers or sticks.

I was in the local Guitar Center the other day, and there was a weighted Casio digital piano on sale for $400 that really amazed me (with the caveat that it wasn't powered on, I'm just talking about the feel of the keys). CDP-S350. It didn't have any wheels if I remember right, so you'd have to bring your own.


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## Dewdman42

charlieclouser said:


> nothing in the center for those (like me) who want to put their computer keyboard there, as compact "as possible"



What are you doing in the meantime? Its a problem I'm trying to solve right now and not so well so far...


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## Robo Rivard

Nick Batzdorf said:


> How sensitive are the drum pads? That's been my complaint about all of them I've seen so far - you have to slam them to get a response. And it's why I like the Keith McMillen BopPad so much - you can play it with your fingers or sticks.
> 
> I was in the local Guitar Center the other day, and there was a weighted Casio digital piano on sale for $400 that really amazed me (with the caveat that it wasn't powered on, I'm just talking about the feel of the keys). CDP-S350. It didn't have any wheels if I remember right, so you'd have to bring your own.


I feel like I should bring back my Roland SPD-11... I don't know how many velocity levels it supports.


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## mybadmemory

It seems most people here add faders to their setups externally, with things like nano controls, palette gears, fader masters, etc. Does anyone here actually use faders on their keyboards to control mod and expression? Are there even any good keyboards with good faders around? I always wonder why almost no midi keyboards include at least two long throw faders for stuff like this.


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## Wunderhorn

mybadmemory said:


> Does anyone here actually use faders on their keyboards to control mod and expression?



Yes, I use faders (and of course the mod wheel) on my Nektar LX88+. Maybe they aren't the best or longest faders by any stretch but it works and it is super fast to set up via MIDI Learn. They totally suffice since I don't do a lot of meticulous live recording. I rather edit or fine-tune the automation curves later.


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## tmhuud

charlieclouser said:


> I do use faders, but the mere presence of that Roland wiggle-stick on an active MIDI input creates problems. It's quite likely to send "value=1, value=0" when you play too hard, bump something, etc. Completely unacceptable piece of tech.



couldn’t agree more. My Roland FantomX8 is ‘almost’ perfect. But that wiggle stick. Oh....Roland.... Meh.


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## SupremeFist

This looks like it's aimed more towards edm/pop producers really but I never understand why they build in such a weird collection of controllers to such things. Fp10 plus eg Nanokontrol and Akai LDP8 is already more flexible...


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## charlieclouser

Dewdman42 said:


> What are you doing in the meantime? Its a problem I'm trying to solve right now and not so well so far...



I use M-Audio KeyStation 88esMK2's. They are cheap and plastic-y, with a crap action. Perfect. 88 crap-tastic keys in pretty much the slimmest, thinnest enclosure out there. The mk2 has a useless set of transport controls right where my wrist wants to rest when I use my trackball, so I buy Alesis Q-88's, which are the rebadged versions of the Keystation without the transport buttons but strangely with a different ROM that makes the USB port more flakey, and then I take the top panel from the Alesis and graft it onto the bottom half and circuit boards of the M-Audio, leaving the cable that goes to the missing transport controls flapping around inside the case. This gives me a keyboard with a nasty Alesis logo on the top but with the guts of the M-Audio (minus the transport buttons of course). I can't use a weighted hammer action piano-style keyboard - they're too slow and syrup-like to play on, and the enclosures are always too thick top-to-bottom - but I do want 88 synth-action keys, so the M-Audio / Alesis are almost the only game in town.

They are cheap and cheerful and you can buy 'em by the sack at the local Banjo Center™. So I got a stack of 'em so when one fails I can toss it in the pile and crack open a freshie. In about five years I'm only on my second one on my main rig, so they're pretty durable. For me ergonomics are more important than key feel, so if I have to suffer crappy key feel in order to have a low-profile enclosure and preserve my ideal 28.5" height to the desk surface, so be it. I've had so many setups that were torture to sit behind past hour four, but with the computer keyboard and flush-mounted trackball above the M-Audio/Alesis keyboard, using its 3" gently sloped top panel as a wrist rest, I can work indefinitely without shoulder pain.

I did keep the Roland RS-9's though, stashed in the back, just in case nothing better comes along by the time I ever get around to building a Doepfer-style custom desk with built-in controller.

But as always, at NAMM this year the thing that will get me more excited than any synth or software would be finding the perfect master keyboard. So I'll be on the hunt.


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## Alex Fraser

charlieclouser said:


> I use M-Audio KeyStation 88esMK2's. They are cheap and plastic-y, with a crap action. Perfect. 88 crap-tastic keys in pretty much the slimmest, thinnest enclosure out there. The mk2 has a useless set of transport controls right where my wrist wants to rest when I use my trackball, so I buy Alesis Q-88's, which are the rebadged versions of the Keystation without the transport buttons but strangely with a different ROM that makes the USB port more flakey, and then I take the top panel from the Alesis and graft it onto the bottom half and circuit boards of the M-Audio, leaving the cable that goes to the missing transport controls flapping around inside the case. This gives me a keyboard with a nasty Alesis logo on the top but with the guts of the M-Audio (minus the transport buttons of course). I can't use a weighted hammer action piano-style keyboard - they're too slow and syrup-like to play on, and the enclosures are always too thick top-to-bottom - but I do want 88 synth-action keys, so the M-Audio / Alesis are almost the only game in town.
> 
> They are cheap and cheerful and you can buy 'em by the sack at the local Banjo Center™. So I got a stack of 'em so when one fails I can toss it in the pile and crack open a freshie. In about five years I'm only on my second one on my main rig, so they're pretty durable. For me ergonomics are more important than key feel, so if I have to suffer crappy key feel in order to have a low-profile enclosure and preserve my ideal 29.5" height to the desk surface, so be it. I've had so many setups that were torture to sit behind past hour four, but with the computer keyboard and flush-mounted trackball above the M-Audio/Alesis keyboard, using its 3" gently sloped top panel as a wrist rest, I can work indefinitely without shoulder pain.
> 
> I did keep the Roland RS-9's though, stashed in the back, just in case nothing better comes along by the time I ever get around to building a Doepfer-style custom desk with built-in controller.
> 
> But as always, at NAMM this year the thing that will get me more excited than any synth or software would be finding the perfect master keyboard. So I'll be on the hunt.


Charlie - I took a hacksaw to my Keystation 88 MK2 and cut the little legs off the bottom to reduce the height. Weirdly, having the entire base of the unit on a flat surface improves the action - there's less flex. Something to try on one of your spares..


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## Geoff Grace

charlieclouser said:


> But as always, at NAMM this year the thing that will get me more excited than any synth or software would be finding the perfect master keyboard. So I'll be on the hunt.


Please do share if you find anything. 

Best,

Geoff


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## charlieclouser

Alex Fraser said:


> Charlie - I took a hacksaw to my Keystation 88 MK2 and cut the little legs off the bottom to reduce the height. Weirdly, having the entire base of the unit on a flat surface improves the action - there's less flex. Something to try on one of your spares..



Oooh good tip. I will try this.


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## vrocko

Seems to be the first midi 2.0 controller to the market, that is a good sign hopefully for the development of 2.0.









Roland A-88MKII MIDI Controller could be the first to support MIDI 2.0


Roland has announced a new version of their slim but fully weighted A-88 MIDI controller. The A-88MKII comes with some useful expressive control but most remarkable is that it supports MIDI 2.0




www.gearnews.com


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## Alex Fraser

charlieclouser said:


> Oooh good tip. I will try this.


You'll have to live with a bit of plastic "dust" from the sawing inside the case as it's a single moulded unit - removing the legs leaves holes. I wasn't too bothered - there's enough lunch leftovers swimming around in my keyboard case as it is.


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## dcoscina

charlieclouser said:


> I do use faders, but the mere presence of that Roland wiggle-stick on an active MIDI input creates problems. It's quite likely to send "value=1, value=0" when you play too hard, bump something, etc. Completely unacceptable piece of tech.
> 
> For years I used the Roland RS-9 synth as a master keyboard, which is an ugly gold keyboard with a JV-1080 synth engine (that I never used even once), a few handy assignable knobs, 8 quick-preset buttons right in the middle which can be configured to change the outgoing MIDI channels on the fly (perfect for a sort of key-switching thing where you have different articulations on MIDI channels 1-8), and an amazing and perfect (for me) keyboard action that is half synth, half piano. The keyboard had piano-shaped keys with the posh red felt strip at the top, but it was not a hammer-action key bed - it had a luxurious but still fast feel. I loved that thing...
> 
> .... after I opened it up and disconnected the cable from that damned wiggle-stick.
> 
> Another peeve about the A-88mk2 is that the knobs should be ABOVE the drum pads. Idiots.
> 
> Not that it will matter or help, but I'll be sure to ream the booth staff at NAMM, though I don't think I have any friends at Roland that would make my ranting matter any.


One thing I’m not too enamoured with is that they have replaced the Ivory G keybed with their PHA4 which comes on their FP series of digital pianos up to but not including the FP90 which has the same action as their RD2000. I believe the Juno DS8 and FA08 still have the Ivory G keybed which feels better than the PHA4 keybed...


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## chimuelo

bvaughn0402 said:


> This site makes it seem that the K4 and K4 EX have the same Fatar setup. There is another version of K4 with a different one. Wonder what is up with that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fatar keyboard and other actions
> 
> 
> A post at the Musiker-Board was created by a user who was kind enough to do exhaustive research on the actions of various pro keyboards and digital pianos and share with the world. I have always been obsessed with the actions of keyboards and how natural they feel to me when playing different styles
> 
> 
> 
> 
> billfulton.com



I’ve got synth action which is good action, very responsive.
Grew up playing classical so any action works, this K4 action is in between cheap and expensive.
But their EX Model has triple sensor super dooper whatever stuff lots of picky folks like.

Best action I ever had was the graded action I played by Infinite Response Polyphonic Aftertouch keybed @ NAMM.

That was exciting in 2011, too bad they bailed.

Can you imagine a company that takes orders for different models of an 88, like options for 1/2 or 3 wheels, where the display is located, 4 x USB ports, 4//6/7/8 pedal jacks.

I’d pay 4 grand to get what I wanted, of course online screamers make noise about costs, but anyone using it for a source of income knows its value.

Ulli....save us.


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## Nick Batzdorf

Robo Rivard said:


> I feel like I should bring back my Roland SPD-11... I don't know how many velocity levels it supports.



What I'm talking about is sensitivity to soft playing - the ability to respond to playing with your fingers, or light buzz rolls with sticks, that kind of thing. Without that, why bother with pads. May as well slam keyboard keys.

I've had a DrumKAT for years, and it sucks in that department. Great pedals, though - HatKAT and BassKAT.

The other side of that is getting instruments to respond properly.


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## youngpokie

I have the previous model of A-88. It was designed to be integrated with Roland Integra, so I never use the measly controls that version has. But I have to say, for playing piano A-88 is incredible.


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## Nick Batzdorf

charlieclouser said:


> nothing in the center for those (like me) who want to put their computer keyboard there, as compact "as possible" (but still chunky as all weighted keyboards),



It would be very easy to make something to place your computer keyboard there.

The setup they show in the picture with the keyboard on a desktop above the center is like the desks I make - when slid into playing position; the whole thing also slides toward your belly so you can also have a full desk.

But all you'd need is something like this scribble. It isn't really drawn to proportion, but the point is that it has a shelf for your computer keyboard, and its legs tuck under the Roland or whatever.


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## Dewdman42

I don’t love the position of the pads nor the Roland joystick but the empty space for my QWERTY keyboard and track ball are very compelling plus I’m sure the Keybed feels great. Plus 2.0 midi. They have my attention


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## charlieclouser

Nick Batzdorf said:


> It would be very easy to make something to place your computer keyboard there.
> 
> The setup they show in the picture with the keyboard on a desktop above the center is like the desks I make - when slid into playing position; the whole thing also slides toward your belly so you can also have a full desk.
> 
> But all you'd need is something like this scribble. It isn't really drawn to proportion, but the point is that it has a shelf for your computer keyboard, and its legs tuck under the Roland or whatever.



I would probably mount the A-88 so that the top surface of its case is flush with the desk surface that the computer keyboard sits on, as opposed to being able to slide underneath. If my music keyboard is shallow enough (front-back) for the top surface to function as a wrist rest, that is ideal. So 3-4 inches or so. But the top-bottom height of hammer-action units is potentially a problem. In order to get the top surface at 28.5" from the floor (which it absolutely must be for me), and still have adequate clearance for my legs (which need 24.5") that means the keyboard can't be more than 3" tall if it will sit on an existing, full-width surface like on my Argosy Dual-15 chassis, or 4" tall if I cut away the center of the keyboard platform and devise a way to suspend it only at the extreme left+right ends.

If I want to use something like the A-88 I'll have to break out the saws to preserve the ergonomics of the top side as shown in the pics below. I have the trackball recessed so it's at a less-extreme slant than if it sits flat on a desk surface - the close edge sits flush with the desk but the far edge is sunk in by almost an inch. For me this is the key to squeezing a few more usable years out of my right wrist! But this also means that I can't do the sliding+disappearing MIDI keyboard thing as it would collide with the support for the trackball, and anyway would require a non-flush front edge. I could maybe make something similar work if I had a wrist rest attached to the desk top's front edge, and they keyboard went underneath that, but then the keyboard has to be even thinner than before. I could possibly make it work if I completely strip the keyboard from its housing but again it becomes a game of tight fits and inevitable disappointment and discomfort.

The recessed trackball idea came from a session when I used an SSL Duality, which has a Kensington Expert Mouse built in to the wrist rest in exactly this fashion, as does the Euphonix MC-Control (the big one). My wrist was in heaven and when I got home I broke out the saw, and then went out and bought a stack of spare Expert Mouse units at Fry's so I'd have enough to last until I hit the dirt.

The setup pictured below is the only one I've had in 35 years that didn't result in shoulder pain after a few hours, so I'm reluctant to change any of the dimensions.... and putting the music keyboard on the far side of the computer keyboard is something I've never liked.

So it's a game of millimeters for me unfortunately. But I still am intrigued about the A-88mk2.

(disregard the second trackball, that's for the ProTools stem recorder on the left. Disregard the Virus TI as well - that's only there to see if I can use its front panel as a non-generic knobby controller for soft synths, and that's kind of a waste of time as it turns out.)


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## EvilDragon

Don't worry guys, no DAW supports MIDI 2.0 yet.


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## Nick Batzdorf

charlieclouser said:


> In order to get the top surface at 28.5" from the floor



Yup, you have it all measured. 28.5" is the average height of white piano keys from the floor.

But most people have no problem with about 4" between the bottom of a 3/4" wooden shelf and the white keys. We made an 1/8" steel shelf for the one customer who had an issue with that. He was very tall (I"m a little over 6' with long legs and am comfortable with the regular v.).


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## zvenx

Ftr I prefer Roland/Korg pitch and mod joystick implementation to wheels..over the decades imho developers have bastardized mappings of pitch and mod to what I consider untraditional parameters. But yes that is just me, and indeed that ship has already sailed.
Either way, about two or three years ago I map a footpedal to modwheel and I think this works so so much better for kontakt libraries etc than the mod wheel.
my two cents.

What however jumps out at me is doesn't this thing have after touch?
rsp


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## charlieclouser

zvenx said:


> What however jumps out at me is doesn't this thing have after touch?



Wow, good catch. I didn't even check, I just assumed it would have AT. That's... strange... but maybe they figure pop+edm people don't need it? 

Maybe we can hope for a "Composer Edition" that has AT, ordinary wheels, and the positions of the drum pads and knobs swapped. Or better yet, four big 100mm faders instead of the 8 knobs.

Ahhh.... it'll never happen. But a guy can dream!


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## zvenx

it was our own ED who indirectly made me check. His https://www.roland.com/us/products/rd-2000/ (favourite controller)(it like my favourite controller which I still use the Roalnd A-90 from decades ago, has both joystick and wheels) also by Roland is perfect for me except it too shockingly doesnt' have after touch.. so I checked to see if this one does.
It isn't mentioned at all.

And I am so with you on the faders instead of the knobs.


rsp


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## Kristoben

When I saw the thread title I just knew it would be about that pitch/mod stick Roland will never get rid of! I actually grew up playing with a Korg pitch/mod stick but once I tried the separate wheels I could never go back.

Does anybody know if Mike Verta's master keyboard project is still in the works? It looked like it would be the answer to our problems.


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## Dewdman42

Nick Batzdorf said:


> It would be very easy to make something to place your computer keyboard there.
> 
> The setup they show in the picture with the keyboard on a desktop above the center is like the desks I make - when slid into playing position; the whole thing also slides toward your belly so you can also have a full desk.
> 
> But all you'd need is something like this scribble. It isn't really drawn to proportion, but the point is that it has a shelf for your computer keyboard, and its legs tuck under the Roland or whatever.



do you know of any photos showing something like that finished out?


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## charlieclouser

What the world needs is a "Left Hand Section" that's just a little box, like what's on the left side of the A-88mk2 and the Doepfer LMK-4. Then you could use a Casio digital piano or whatever you please, or even strip out the key bed from your favorite existing controller or synth, build it into your desk, and not worry about what to do about mod wheels etc. You could call it "Leftie". Such a box could have:

- USB-MIDI as well as 5-pin MIDI in+out with merge so you can patch it in line with your keyboard if you want - or not. It might be convenient for some to be able to separate the MIDI inputs from the keyboard and the left hand section.

- Ordinary wheels, but THREE of 'em, like on the Yamaha SY-99. Sprung pitch bend plus two ordinary wheels for Mod + Expression. For many users this would be enough, and they wouldn't even need faders or knobs.

- An option for drum pads, but small ones similar to the A-88mk2, not a full MPC-style gigantic 16-pad square. Either two rows with 4 or 6 pads per row, or a single row of 12 or 16, with software assignable LED colors and data types, and the ability to have either the notes themselves or just the LEDs "latch" so if you're using it for keyswitching you can see which one was last pressed and is therefore active.

- An option for knobs and / or faders. Definitely 100mm faders, not those shorties, and since an 8-knob panel is about the same size as a 4-fader panel, maybe there would be two available spots to put the panels in so you could have 4 faders + 8 knobs, 8 faders + 0 knobs, or 0 faders + 16 knobs. 

Heck, you could almost build this out of EuroRack bits at this point, and indeed that might be the shortest path. There are so many eager EuroRack makers these days that it would probably be easier to convince one of them to tool something up rather than trying to turn the battleship HMS Roland. A standard 3-rack-space EuroRack size is just about perfect - 100mm faders will fit, and Doepfer already make a pitch+mod wheel module (although it's CV only). There are a variety of shallow "skiff" style enclosures that would sit nicely in the available space, and there might be one that's the right size already. All that's really missing is a MIDI brain for the thing, and this might already exist - I've just lost track of the hailstorm of Euro stuff lately. But at NAMM I'll be scoping for such a thing, or the way to put one together with all the cables inside so you don't have front panel spaghetti over there.

I've been digging around in the Livid Instruments site looking at their Builder series, which would make something like this possible but... hassle. But their Builder Brain might be the CV>MIDI engine that we'd need.


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## Nick Batzdorf

Dewdman42 said:


> do you know of any photos showing something like that finished out?



I don't, but it wouldn't be very difficult to make out of wood, metal, or a combination.


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## Prockamanisc

charlieclouser said:


> .... and then you see the freakin' Roland pitch+mod wiggle stick, which makes using orchestral libraries that use mod wheel for dynamics control utterly impossible.


I know! Roland drives me NUTS with this. My solution is to have another keyboard right behind my Roland and I use that exclusively for modwheel. I love the Roland key action so much.


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## Pablocrespo

charlieclouser said:


> What the world needs is a "Left Hand Section" that's just a little box, like what's on the left side of the A-88mk2 and the Doepfer LMK-4. Then you could use a Casio digital piano or whatever you please, or even strip out the key bed from your favorite existing controller or synth, build it into your desk, and not worry about what to do about mod wheels etc. You could call it "Leftie". Such a box could have:
> 
> - USB-MIDI as well as 5-pin MIDI in+out with merge so you can patch it in line with your keyboard if you want - or not. It might be convenient for some to be able to separate the MIDI inputs from the keyboard and the left hand section.
> 
> - Ordinary wheels, but THREE of 'em, like on the Yamaha SY-99. Sprung pitch bend plus two ordinary wheels for Mod + Expression. For many users this would be enough, and they wouldn't even need faders or knobs.
> 
> - An option for drum pads, but small ones similar to the A-88mk2, not a full MPC-style gigantic 16-pad square. Either two rows with 4 or 6 pads per row, or a single row of 12 or 16, with software assignable LED colors and data types, and the ability to have either the notes themselves or just the LEDs "latch" so if you're using it for keyswitching you can see which one was last pressed and is therefore active.
> 
> - An option for knobs and / or faders. Definitely 100mm faders, not those shorties, and since an 8-knob panel is about the same size as a 4-fader panel, maybe there would be two available spots to put the panels in so you could have 4 faders + 8 knobs, 8 faders + 0 knobs, or 0 faders + 16 knobs.
> 
> Heck, you could almost build this out of EuroRack bits at this point, and indeed that might be the shortest path. There are so many eager EuroRack makers these days that it would probably be easier to convince one of them to tool something up rather than trying to turn the battleship HMS Roland. A standard 3-rack-space EuroRack size is just about perfect - 100mm faders will fit, and Doepfer already make a pitch+mod wheel module (although it's CV only). There are a variety of shallow "skiff" style enclosures that would sit nicely in the available space, and there might be one that's the right size already. All that's really missing is a MIDI brain for the thing, and this might already exist - I've just lost track of the hailstorm of Euro stuff lately. But at NAMM I'll be scoping for such a thing, or the way to put one together with all the cables inside so you don't have front panel spaghetti over there.
> 
> I've been digging around in the Livid Instruments site looking at their Builder series, which would make something like this possible but... hassle. But their Builder Brain might be the CV>MIDI engine that we'd need.


I have made some of that with arduino and a local company that builds controllers

I have 16 knobs (with buttons for banks)and 8 100mm faders, I also have a steinberg pad cmc but I only use it to trigger expression maps. 

I have disassembled a yamaha digital piano and it plays great. I have it in a sliding board beneath the desk (still looking for something nice with 7cm height)
I haven’t found a solution for pitch bend yet!

I will have them plot the controller names once I decide the best config:





The company is 








Design your MIDI controller, we manufacture it-YAELTEX Custom


Yaeltex is an Argentinean company in which we passionately dedicate ourselves to the manufacture of custom MIDI controllers for digital artists. Know Us!




yaeltex.com




(Not affiliated)


----------



## Gregg S

I’m currently using a Kurzweil K2500x as a master. It replaces my Roland A80, which I loved but is worn out. The performance setup page is perfect for this.


----------



## charlieclouser

Pablocrespo said:


> I have made some of that with arduino and a local company that builds controllers
> 
> I have 16 knobs (with buttons for banks)and 8 100mm faders, I also have a steinberg pad cmc but I only use it to trigger expression maps.
> 
> I have disassembled a yamaha digital piano and it plays great. I have it in a sliding board beneath the desk (still looking for something nice with 7cm height)
> I haven’t found a solution for pitch bend yet!
> 
> I will have them plot the controller names once I decide the best config:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The company is
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Design your MIDI controller, we manufacture it-YAELTEX Custom
> 
> 
> Yaeltex is an Argentinean company in which we passionately dedicate ourselves to the manufacture of custom MIDI controllers for digital artists. Know Us!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yaeltex.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Not affiliated)



Well that's just about perfect! Bookmarking Yaeltex.


----------



## woodslanding

These days a $13 teensy board is all you need to make a midi controller. Wire up whatever pots and switches you want to it, and write a dozen or so lines of code in the arduino editor (basically copy and paste and edit your CC numbers) and you have a midi controller. powered off USB. Buy a box, drill a few holes...

The keyboard to the left was built 6 years ago out of a casio keybed (great if you like a heavy action) an axiom 61 note keyboard (horrible!) and the knobs and sliders from an old roland A-30. I wired the drawbar pots in for the axiom sliders. Had to fit all the boards from all three units into the box, which was a pain!

But the new one I'm building now has (real!) hammond drawbars running into a teensy board. Much more compact! I also retrofitted the KX8 keybed on it for aftertouch, using a couple of long FSRs from sparkfun plugged into the teensy. Works great, although no AT on the black keys.... And I built a breath controller using a $20 pressure sensor and some 1/4" tubing, and the teensy is running that too. 

I have a second teensy for all my foot pedals and switches, which means I only have a single USB cable running between the floor and the keyboard.

One teensy can run a dozen pots and 15 switches IIRC.


----------



## EvilDragon

zvenx said:


> it was our own ED who indirectly made me check. His https://www.roland.com/us/products/rd-2000/ (favourite controller)(it like my favourite controller which I still use the Roalnd A-90 from decades ago, has both joystick and wheels) also by Roland is perfect for me except it too shockingly doesnt' have after touch.



It's not my favorite controller - I don't own it, due to no aftertouch and shockingly bad firmware where you *cannot set different CC number to individual sliders!* You choose a custom CC, and it's the same CC across all sliders, just on different MIDI channels... it's a joke compared to Kurzweil's flexibility (I'm still using PC3K8).

It just has a pretty great (triple sensor) keybed. That's all. It feels very good to play it. However, after playing it extensively in Berlin (hard to find it locally in Croatia), I was kinda left surprised by how it doesn't effortlessly respond to key repetitions. It almost feels like a regular dual sensor keybed... or it might simply be the case that my key repetition technique sucks balls... However I also played a Kawai MP7SE there (plastic keys but also triple sensor), and it was way easier to do key repetitions... But it's bulky as hell...


----------



## zvenx

EvilDragon said:


> It's not my favorite controller - I don't own it, due to no aftertouch and shockingly bad firmware where you *cannot set different CC number to individual sliders!* You choose a custom CC, and it's the same CC across all sliders, just on different MIDI channels... it's a joke compared to Kurzweil's flexibility (I'm still using PC3K8).
> 
> It just has a pretty great (triple sensor) keybed. That's all. It feels very good to play it. However, after playing it extensively in Berlin (hard to find it locally in Croatia), I was kinda left surprised by how it doesn't effortlessly respond to key repetitions. It almost feels like a regular dual sensor keybed... or it might simply be the case that my key repetition technique sucks balls... However I also played a Kawai MP7SE there (plastic keys but also triple sensor), and it was way easier to do key repetitions... But it's bulky as hell...




Sorry for misrepresenting what you said.

Hopefully you can appreciate why I came to the wrong conclusion based on reading some of your posts in the past, without the additional info above.

rsp


----------



## EvilDragon

Yeah sure. That was when I had a few cursory rounds with it, the action really feels great to play (and this opinion on mine is still unchanging - it is simply great! But for key repetitions, I assume I need to work on my technique, since I didn't find it effortless to play, when I can do the same thing just fine on my upright back at my folks' place). But when I got more time to play with it, that MIDI CC limitation killed the dream for me... I know I said in one post I would be getting RD-2000 to replace my PC3K8, however this is not happening after all, because of the above.

As it stands, there is still no perfect MIDI controller for me, anywhere...


----------



## zvenx

I still love my A-90, but indeed wished it had more and better sliders and it is exceedingly heavy. Thank goodness I don't have to move it often.
rsp


----------



## Kent

What I want to know is: whatever happened to @mverta's modular key/controller project?


----------



## Greg

I've asked before but Im curious again if anyone knows of a keyboard controller with the same feel as the Nord Piano 4? Its the best digital keyboard bed I've ever played and the smoothness and response definitely improves my recording & playing over both the Doepfer and Komplete Kontrol 88


----------



## Tim_Wells

Interesting options! I still prefer something with at least a few decent on-board piano sounds. So I don't always have to fire up the PC, adjust the latency, etc., etc....

... just to practice or to workout some quick ideas.


----------



## EvilDragon

Greg said:


> I've asked before but Im curious again if anyone knows of a keyboard controller with the same feel as the Nord Piano 4? Its the best digital keyboard bed I've ever played and the smoothness and response definitely improves my recording & playing over both the Doepfer and Komplete Kontrol 88



That one very likely uses Fatar TP/40GH, modified by Nord... So no other board has it, at least not with those same modifications Nord did, whatever they might be.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

I'd use an iOS app for CCs if my keyboard didn't have them.


----------



## charlieclouser

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I'd use an iOS app for CCs if my keyboard didn't have them.



Tried it, hated it. It required looking down at least occasionally to verify what slider I was moving. With big chunky hardware faders, or better yet, three wheels, I can keep my eyes where they need to be -focused on not playing the wrong notes!


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

charlieclouser said:


> Tried it, hated it. It required looking down at least occasionally to verify what slider I was moving. With big chunky hardware faders, or better yet, three wheels, I can keep my eyes where they need to be -focused on not playing the wrong notes!



Makes sense.


----------



## Mark Schmieder

PolyAT is very rare on fully weighted controllers due to added weight, costs, and the compromises required for escapement etc. This is why I never liked the Kurzweil MIDIboard back in the 80's or later on when one became available to me for peanuts (maybe even free) and I turned it down.

I have been told by certain vendors that it is almost impossible to support PolyAT without side-to-side key wiggle at some level, and that this can work against good piano action.


----------



## Mark Schmieder

As for pads, Arturia and Korg have traditionally had the ones with the most sensitivity levels and accuracy, both on dedicated pad controllers and for pads that are on their keyboard controllers.


----------



## Mark Schmieder

As I still prefer Kawai's action to anybody else's, and also the built-in sounds (which would not be what I use in the studio anyway, but for practice and maybe some gigs), I am hoping they'll have a MIDI 2.0 board soon.

I was initially excited by this new Roland board, but every product they make (in hardware at least), ultimately disappoints with one or two fatal flaws (which seem intentional in order to keep you in the upgrade cycle) and I've also been burnt too often with short-term compatibility limits and for stuff that has sounds, the baked-in-ness of the reverb and room ambience in the raw samples.

Nevertheless, I always keep an open mind about anything that comes along, and have some hope for this board once full details are more clear and one becomes available to try in person. I won't be at NAMM though.


----------



## Ivan M.

youngpokie said:


> I have the previous model of A-88. It was designed to be integrated with Roland Integra, so I never use the measly controls that version has. But I have to say, for playing piano A-88 is incredible.



How do you handle fast repeated notes on it?


----------



## Mark Schmieder

BTW escapement is the single most important feature to me on ANY keyboard and is why I have suffered without one for almost five years now, ever since selling my Kurzweil PC3X to a former member of the Grateful Dead (one of my employer's clients). I'm glad the Kurz went to a good cause, supporting budding songwriters at a local showcase club founded by him. Using Fatar action was wrecking my technique though.

I play a lot of latin styles, classical, jazz, even stride, where fast repeats of the same note are absolutely essential. And as acoustic upright pianos generally do not have escapement (except for upright grands), I've been hoping for this to be delivered well in a digital model.

Both Kawai and Yamaha now have such models, but I, like Nick, have so far been unable to achieve proper technique on a Roland that is spec'ed to support this feature, even after hours of practice. So I'm not convinced it's a personal technique issue. But I'm willing to be proven wrong.


----------



## TintoL

I also got tired of bad sitting posture with my vpc 1. So i want to replace it. I am really interested on this a88. But, i have never tried the joistick thingy. 

I am also interested on the casio px s1000 becauseof how slim it is. Has any one tried this keyboard?

I am now also putting ergonomics over key action.


----------



## Dewdman42

I think these discussion related to 88 key controllers often get a bit confusing because of there is a wide range of purpose for 88 key controllers. if the goal is specifically to have the best piano action, then this one is not the best and I would wager that hardly anything that is this compact will be in the running. This keyboard is more of a candidate for a controller that sits in front of your daw and has 88 keys, which many find advantageous for various reasons...with action that doesn't totally suck. I mean I would expect the action here to be superior in every way to the LX88, key station and other 88 key choices. Might even better then the KK88, but we shall see about that. Its more compact then the KK and many others that people often use which have quite good action...such as old K2500's and stuff like that, those are humongous in comparison. 

The keyboards with the best killer piano action are generally humongous. Anytime these discussions start going people start talking about escapement and all the rest, and all of that hugely matters for a piano action to be sure, but it also generally results in a very large controller that is not going to work out that great in front of the DAW without a custom setup. I don't feel the A-88mkII is in that category at all, so discussions about how accurate it is for practicing the piano are kind of a moot point. This should be compared to the LX88, key station and other compact 88 key controllers that has ok weighted action, but have other features like sliders, wheels, place to put your QWERTY, and decent enough action.


----------



## Mark Schmieder

Oh, it is quite clear to me that this is designed for DAW use (but not for me due to my own personal setup limitations), on account of its depth and other factors. But as many were addressing is suitability as a stage piano, I thought it worth addressing those aspects.

It might be better to compare this to the VPC1, given the above caveat.


----------



## Dewdman42

I can't possibly see how many people could fit a VPC in front of their DAW. I certainly can't. If you have a trick custom desk..of course you can make anything work.


----------



## Mark Schmieder

Like I said, I can't personally, but many people in pro studios vs. home studios, have VERY deep desks as they also have mixers in front and large mastering-level active monitors with appropriate working distance (I use 5" monitors due to working distance and room size).


----------



## Dewdman42

My MP-9500 is sitting to my side.. So that if I really need a piano feel I just slide over there and work on it. Different purpose.

Anyway, clearly the A-88mkII is not in that category of midi controller...so I don't know why get into the weeds about the finer details of which comparable controllers have the best action, it always leads to discussions about controllers that are MUCH larger and often times often lack other controller features as well compared to this category.


----------



## Mark Schmieder

Isn't it logical to do so, simply because this is so far the first and only controller to support MIDI 2.0? None of us know when to expect MIDI 2.0 to become available in Digital Pianos, so it is only natural that people yearn for this controller to be more than it is purposed to be.


----------



## Dewdman42

Midi 2.0 is somewhat interesting, but nobody will be taking advantage of that for a long time. But anyway I would consider that valuable as a DAW station controller...and ultimately digital pianos will have the higher levels of velocity and all that also, but you only have to look at the photos of the A-88mkII for about 3 seconds to realize that its not ever going to compare well against other true piano action boards... There are many other better alternatives for that...and by the time we have the software and digital piano sounds to take advantages of a lot more velocity levels.....midi 2.0 will make its way into all of those controllers as well. VPC-2.0. That is a different purpose really then what the A-88mkII is ideally suited for. If that is a primary concern, the easy answer is don't bother looking at this one. But I think this Roland compares very favorably against other 88 key controllers that are more in this compact category...with extra pads and knobs and things like that as well....compact...light... only $1000. Possibly will have one of the best actions in that category in fact...so why concern about the fact it is not triple sensor with escapement? 

I was seriously considering one until this morning. Its pretty heavy, my desk may not support that, the desk surface for the keyboard moves up and down and I'm not sure how much weight it can handle. This Roland is 35 pounds, which is not actually that light as I would have expected. it has wood in it apparently. The LX88 I just got is I think less then half that weight. But the action on the LX88 basically sucks and I'm not that impressed with its wheels or sliders either. No place to put my QWERTY. It was under $300 though. My main interest in the Roland is I can put my QWERTY on top of the keyboard and my track ball and that solves a lot of problems..and I have a high degree of confidence I will like the action just fine for this purpose...when I can turn to my left to play an MP-9500 for serious piano playing. But still I am thinking the roland will just be smooth to play with some weight but still smooth and easy to play for non-piano instruments which is actually what i need to do a lot more when I'm in front of my DAW. I actually do NOT want a fully weighted controller there most of the time. A bit of weighting is ok, as long as its smooth and buttery for playing other things with a light touch. In some ways the LX88 is even better for that, but the problem with that keyboard is that its an inconsistent poor quality keybed in general, where I would expect the Roland to feel very solid and smooth...albeit, not the most realistic piano per the things often discussed... but as I said, i personally feel that is a different discussion and the A-88mkII shouldn't even be considered for that kind of purpose. Separate category really.

The other thing I don't like about the roland, its quite wide, even for an 88, but they kept the depth down to 11" which helps a lot.


----------



## Mark Schmieder

Thanks; you have convinced me that there is no point in holding off even further before finally getting another digital board. Due to buying my first house recently, I had no choice but to delay it a bit further. But it seems there is no reason to delay on an MP11SE or full-sized home piano (slightly better sound and action) and it is good to know that MIDI 2.0 is not ready to fly across all software instantly. But hopefully this Roland board will find some people for whom it meets their needs.


----------



## Alex Fraser

If you want the keys in front, I'd prioritise ergonomics above all else: The best 88 note controller in the world is both pointless and an ergonomic hindrance if all you're doing is blocking out chords, programming and fussing with CC curves for 10 hours a day. Ymmv etc.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Mark Schmieder said:


> Aftertouch is very rare on fully weighted controllers



Most if not all of the Kurzweils, which use Fatar keyboards, have aftertouch. My K2500X certainly does. But it wasn't cheap when it came out.

Or are you talking about polyphonic aftertouch, i.e. per note? That's not very common, and I"m pretty sure the Midiboard had it. (I've never played one, just a K250.)


----------



## Mark Schmieder

Yeah, PolyAT. The MIDIboard had it. But it's even rare on unweighted and semi-weighted action anymore. Arturia has it on their Buchla-inspired MicroFreak, which I almost bought just as as controller and to explore PolyAT, but I decided not to get any more synths period (the Moog Voyager is enough; I sold everything else).


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Mark Schmieder said:


> it confuses players of such keyboards who may not expect it



I wonder whether Rolli and Keith McMillen sell a lot of their keyboards, which have CC control in several dimensions.

Probably, or they wouldn't still be selling them.


----------



## Mark Schmieder

I'm just repeating what vendors have told me personally.

At any rate, those are very different controllers as they aren't action-based for the most part and aren't trying to be like piano keybeds.

I have several friends who have bought them, primarily to try to do a proper job of emulating Sitar playing.


----------



## sostenuto

May reconsider NI_ KK-S88 after all .... Fatar keybed _ @ $1,049. May start using Exp Pedal for MW to learn how well it can replace; has AT.


----------



## EvilDragon

Mark Schmieder said:


> Aftertouch is very rare on fully weighted controllers due to added weight, costs



Aftertouch is a very simple and light resistive strip along all keys. It costs maybe a few bucks, and weight is <100 grams...

Also, aftertouch, if well designed, has _nothing to do_ with escapement. Escapement just means that you can hit the key before it's fully back up. This is the third sensor thing, which is placed in between the normal 2 sensors that detect velocity. Aftertouch is situated at the very _bottom_ of the key travel. So, you hit the key to the bottom, and _only then_ should AT activate. This has nothing to do with side-to-side key wiggle (if that happens, it happens due to general design of the keybed rather than because AT was added, it's not AT's fault that keys have wiggle - MIDIboard had wiggle because of the way keybed was designed, not because of poly AT - at least to my understanding).


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

EvilDragon said:


> Aftertouch is a very simple and light resistive strip along all keys. It costs maybe a few bucks, and weight is <100 grams...



He's talking about polyphonic aftertouch, but I imagine that would work the same way except that there are 87 more of 'em.


----------



## EvilDragon

Poly AT would work through capacitance rather than resistance, but there's a number of different ways to achieve it. MIDIboard had one method, old Ensoniq SQ-80 had a completely different one (quite cheap implementation). And Osmose has yet another one (quite premium implementation). And Behringer has their own method (which would be the cheapest, I'd presume, since they have economies of scale)...


----------



## EvilDragon

Sure there are different ways of achieving it. It's just a matter of engineering.



Mark Schmieder said:


> as I had been told (apparently also incorrectly) that it's a licensed technology that is sort of packaged as-is and engineered to be used in the way it was implemented.



This is only true if vendor(s) you've talked with order keybeds from a 3rd party like Fatar. Those who make their own keybeds, also make the rules (Yamaha, Roland, Korg, Kawai, Behringer, they all build from their own designs).


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

EvilDragon said:


> Poly AT would work through capacitance rather than resistance, but there's a number of different ways to achieve it. MIDIboard had one method, old Ensoniq SQ-80 had a completely different one (quite cheap implementation). And Osmose has yet another one (quite premium implementation). And Behringer has their own method (which would be the cheapest, I'd presume, since they have economies of scale)...



How do those methods work (physically)?

Obviously - I think obviously - you're varying the distance between the plates, but is it just... I'm imagining something like a rubber plate that squeezes together?


----------



## EvilDragon

Not sure what mechanism MIDIboard uses for this, but SQ-80 uses coils on PCBs touched by carbon nubs. Explained in this video, here:



Osmose has Expressive E's design which is likely a miniaturized version of their Touché controller, per key.

Behringer:



with more info eyeballed by a GS member here: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpost.php?p=14403472&postcount=6


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Thanks ED.

Seeing that... I have a Korg controller keyboard from the '80s that a friend left when he moved out of town, as well as an extra wooden keybed from a Kurzweil k250 (which I bought a few years ago because it seemed like a good idea at the time).

Next time I need a project, that (combining the two) might be interesting. The Korg was too filthy to bring inside the house, so it's going to be filthy. Will see whether it works...


----------



## Señormisterioso

Hey I'm with


charlieclouser said:


> https://www.roland.com/global/products/a-88mk2/
> 88 keys, square shape and flat surfaces, nothing in the center for those (like me) who want to put their computer keyboard there, as compact "as possible" (but still chunky as all weighted keyboards), adjustable response (but probably not mechanically adjustable feel), 8 software assignable knobs.... looks good so far.
> 
> Add in 16 banks for the 8 drum pads which can be configured to send notes, CC messages, or program changes when pressed, and have assignable colors and you have a nifty 8-pad mini-panel for your key switches. Great!
> 
> .... and then you see the freakin' Roland pitch+mod wiggle stick, which makes using orchestral libraries that use mod wheel for dynamics control utterly impossible.
> 
> So. Close. But completely unusable. When will Roland get a clue?


Has any one ventured into getting rid of the spring that probably pulls the mod wheel back to zero??

I was thinking it might be a straight forward hack to open this thing, leave the left and right ones that keep the pitch in place but disengage the one that forces the mod back.


----------



## j_kranz

Curious about this one from Nektar...


----------



## Alex Fraser

j_kranz said:


> Curious about this one from Nektar...


That's the one I nagged them to make a couple of years back. Cleary they've been listening. 
Looks like a semi-weighted answer to the Keystation. Interesting..


----------



## Dewdman42

oh my names all over that. I think I'm still within 30 days to take back the LX88 I just bought and get one of these instead. Room for my QWERTY it looks like. Thanks for sharing that.


----------



## Pietro

NAMM 2020: Nektar launches the Impact GXP88 USB/MIDI keyboard controller


Nektar has unveiled the Impact GXP88 USB/MIDI keyboard controller at NAMM 2020. With 88 semi-weighted keys in a slim, lightweight package, the Impact GXP88 is aimed at performers and players.




www.gearnews.com





Yeah, looks interesting. Although some of the buttons seem to be not very useful outside their software?

I have my eye on the Arturia Keylab 88 Essential as well. 

- Piotr


----------



## Dewdman42

There are plenty of keyboards with lots of buttons. LX88 is close comparable. The whole point of this one is that I don't actually need or want slides and drumpads on my midi controller, there are much better alternatives for that. This is 2 inches shallower and has place to put my QWERTY and trackball on top where there are no buttons.


----------



## Pietro

I'm totally with you. But of all the waiting and looking for the perfect one, I'm left with a 12 year old Keystation 88 es. So I'm currently changing my strategy and opening myself to other options. Otherwise, another year with a squeeky controller and another disappointing NAMM.

Every now and then I look at Komplete Kontrol 88 mkii and almost but it. Then I have to remind myself, that it's a desk eating monster :D. Ain't nobody got space fo that. 

- Piotr


----------



## Dewdman42

a lot of the 88 controllers won't fit on my desk. This one and that new roland will not only fit but also have a place to put my QWERTY. Sold. This one happens to be less then 1/3 the price of the KK. I expect the action to be lower then mediocre, but good enough for my desk


----------



## Dewdman42

admittedly the SL88 Grand has my attention too, but it would literally squeeze onto my desk with absolutely no place to put my QWERTY or trackpad.


----------



## Alex Fraser

Pietro said:


> I'm totally with you. But of all the waiting and looking for the perfect one, I'm left with a 12 year old Keystation 88 es. So I'm currently changing my strategy and opening myself to other options. Otherwise, another year with a squeeky controller and another disappointing NAMM.e
> 
> Every now and then I look at Komplete Kontrol 88 mkii and almost but it. Then I have to remind myself, that it's a desk eating monster :D. Ain't nobody got space fo that.
> 
> - Piotr


I feel ya. What I really want is M Audio to release a “Mark 3” version of the 88, like the 61 and 49 key versions. My tweets to the company about this go unanswered. 

They’ve been selling the same design since to dawn of time. Someone must be buying them..


----------



## Michael Antrum

Has anyone hand their paws on the new Arturia Keylab Essential 88 ?

88 key with hybrid synth piano action and after touch for 350 euros... might be an interesting alternative to the M Audio...


----------



## chimuelo

Make sure to buy 4 of the cheap ones.
When the first contact goes you can’t use it anymore for Pianos, etc.
So turn that into a B3 / Synth controller, break out # 2, now you got enough spares to get you through 2026.


----------



## Pietro

Alex Fraser said:


> I feel ya. What I really want is M Audio to release a “Mark 3” version of the 88, like the 61 and 49 key versions. My tweets to the company about this go unanswered.
> 
> They’ve been selling the same design since to dawn of time. Someone must be buying them..



Their mk3 is basically the same design as ever before, so I wouldn't expect an 88 mk3 be any better than mk1. Time to look elsewhere. 

- Piotr


----------



## charlieclouser

j_kranz said:


> Curious about this one from Nektar...



Me too x100. Will def check this one out.


----------



## bill5

Seycara said:


> Agreed, whoever designed that modwheel has no idea what they're doing.


I couldn't disagree more. Roland are one of the few who DO know what they're doing. It's the mod wheels that make me shake my head. Try doing a pitch change with vibrato that way. A joystick is infinitely easier and better.

What puts me off is no transport controls (??) and the price. Hell for that I can get a DS88; I don't need the pads or other control knobs.


----------



## bill5

Wunderhorn said:


> Why do some companies insist on junky alternatives to the trusted mod wheel? There is a reason why the mod wheel is standard. I completely agree. Attractive controller keyboard with a dumb stick that makes it unusable.


You people are insane. 

Actually what makes way (way) more sense than either one is make it a modular unit so you can plug n play either one. I can't imagine in this day and age it would be that hard to implement or even add much cost.


----------



## whinecellar

Michael Antrum said:


> Has anyone hand their paws on the new Arturia Keylab Essential 88 ?
> 
> 88 key with hybrid synth piano action and after touch for 350 euros... might be an interesting alternative to the M Audio...



Yeah, played one at NAMM and it felt decent let alone for $349. 30+ years of banging on heavily weighted actions have taken a toll on me, resulting in surgeries on both hands this past summer - so I am now on the hunt for a decent feeling semi-weighted controller that doesn’t feel like complete poop. No more heavy weights for me. So far the StudioLogic Numa Compact 2 wins for me - it is surprisingly playable - but yeah, those little joysticks. 

The Arturia (the new Essential 88) is a close second - a bit lighter feel, and very little resistance. The entire chassis flexes on this one though in the middle, which would be easily fixed by some rubber feet. 

Tied for 2nd place would be the Nektar LX88+ and sadly they didn’t have the new GXP88 on display, unless I missed it. A rep tells me it feels even better than the LXP. Thing about the LXP is that it feels pretty decent, but actually pushes back a bit trying to return to the key up position, which can get fatiguing after a while when you’re trying to play soft parts. I’d really love to check out the GXP when it ships - and for just $299? Probably a no brainer if you don’t mind the tightly sprung bit. On the upside, the pitch and model wheels are in the right place. Bonkers that other mfrs don’t get this right!!!

Last point I can’t figure out with *every* semi weighted action on the market: they are all a half inch shorter in length than standard piano keys, which makes the pivot point weird. You can get used to it, but I don’t understand why it’s a thing!?

Anyway, there ya go!


----------



## dcoscina

Since I work in keyboards in a retail store I have had the benefit of playing everything. Nord Grand and Piano 4 are lovely on their own but surprisingly not great as master controllers (the velocity curves aren't well suited to orchestral composing in my experience). 

Komplete Kontrol S88mk2 is nice but very heavy weighting. Moreso than my Kurzweil PC3x. Same Fatar bed is found in the Arturia Keylab 88mk2. I used a Keylab 49 mk2 over the holidays and loved the weighted synth action by the way. Perfect for orchestral composing. Same bed found on their MatrixBrute. 

Yamaha CP88 and CP73 are both very good as stand alone and master controllers. They also transmit MIDI and audio over USB. Yamaha P515 (with speakers) is also nice. A bit cheaper than the CP series. 

Our store carries Dexibell and their S9 controller is a beast thanks to wood keys, motorized faders, unlimited polyphony and the ability to download sounds from their website. But it's very expensive (I dare say over priced given the competition at the $5000 price point). 

Recently got in a Fantom 8 and the RD2000 key action is nice but heavy. I dig it however. Thinking an RD series might be my next purchase or else the A88mk2 (I don't care about aftertouch and I could put a NanoKontrol on top of the board for sliders). 

I'm not particularly warm to the RH3 keyboard found on Korg's Kronos 73/88 as well as their GS-173/188 but I like it on their SV series. Not tried the D1 but I know a few people who bought them just as controllers. 

Honestly, I haven't played a Nectar that I didn't want to chuck into a landfill. The action is horrible. No weight and cheap. The new Keystation 61mk3 have a nice semi weighted action. Build quality is another thing however. 

M Audio Hammer 88 for the budget conscious is honestly the best bet. Simple layout, but really good action. Also leans on the heavier side but for $499 CAD, it's a steal. I think Mark Isham replaced his old KS88 PRO with it. It's solid. 

As I said above, I'm waiting on the Roland A88 since I like its footprint (I have a small desk) but I'm not sure about the PHA-4 action. If its exactly the same as found on the FP10, I'm going to pass and probably get the NI S88mk2 since we get it for a ridiculous staff discount. Or if funds are low, the Hammer 88. I would prefer a more nimble weighted action like my current PC3x but that is more in the Dexibell/Nord price point.


----------



## tmhuud

<<Honestly, I haven't played a Nectar that I didn't want to chuck into a landfill.>>

I couldn’t agree more.


----------



## Michael Antrum

dcoscina said:


> Since I work in keyboards in a retail store I have had the benefit of playing everything. Nord Grand and Piano 4 are lovely on their own but surprisingly not great as master controllers (the velocity curves aren't well suited to orchestral composing in my experience).
> 
> Komplete Kontrol S88mk2 is nice but very heavy weighting. Moreso than my Kurzweil PC3x. Same Fatar bed is found in the Arturia Keylab 88mk2. I used a Keylab 49 mk2 over the holidays and loved the weighted synth action by the way. Perfect for orchestral composing. Same bed found on their MatrixBrute.
> 
> Yamaha CP88 and CP73 are both very good as stand alone and master controllers. They also transmit MIDI and audio over USB. Yamaha P515 (with speakers) is also nice. A bit cheaper than the CP series.
> 
> Our store carries Dexibell and their S9 controller is a beast thanks to wood keys, motorized faders, unlimited polyphony and the ability to download sounds from their website. But it's very expensive (I dare say over priced given the competition at the $5000 price point).
> 
> Recently got in a Fantom 8 and the RD2000 key action is nice but heavy. I dig it however. Thinking an RD series might be my next purchase or else the A88mk2 (I don't care about aftertouch and I could put a NanoKontrol on top of the board for sliders).
> 
> I'm not particularly warm to the RH3 keyboard found on Korg's Kronos 73/88 as well as their GS-173/188 but I like it on their SV series. Not tried the D1 but I know a few people who bought them just as controllers.
> 
> Honestly, I haven't played a Nectar that I didn't want to chuck into a landfill. The action is horrible. No weight and cheap. The new Keystation 61mk3 have a nice semi weighted action. Build quality is another thing however.
> 
> M Audio Hammer 88 for the budget conscious is honestly the best bet. Simple layout, but really good action. Also leans on the heavier side but for $499 CAD, it's a steal. I think Mark Isham replaced his old KS88 PRO with it. It's solid.
> 
> As I said above, I'm waiting on the Roland A88 since I like its footprint (I have a small desk) but I'm not sure about the PHA-4 action. If its exactly the same as found on the FP10, I'm going to pass and probably get the NI S88mk2 since we get it for a ridiculous staff discount. Or if funds are low, the Hammer 88. I would prefer a more nimble weighted action like my current PC3x but that is more in the Dexibell/Nord price point.



I'm definitely with you on Nectar, I bought a Panorama 61 key when they launched and the key action was so noisy, you could class it as a musical instrument without even plugging it in, and the black keys felt like they were from a different keyboard than the white. Hated it.

I then bought a NI Kontrol S61, and it was just about acceptable. Lightguide excellent, keybed a bit spongy, ambivalent about the mod sliders, and really, with all that space, why no faders ! If I used it more I'd probably upgrade to the MKII with the proper mod wheels, but I don't so I probably won't.

My main keybed is a Nord Stage 2 EX which is a good compromise. It's not the best piano keyboard (take a bow Kawai MPII SE), but its compact and I use it in it's own right as a keyboard too. For composing I have some Pallet Gear faders sitting nicely (with velcro) near the mod wheel. I think the keybed on it is a happy compromise for playing piano & VI's. You have enough a a decent piano action that isn't too heavy for VI's most of the time.

However, despite its compact size and low weight, I don't like carrying the NS 2EX around when I travel, especially as my daughter uses it too, so I bought a Nord Electro 6 73 key for travel, and I love it. The waterfall keybed is a fab - it's only a shade larger than the NI S61, but those extra keys make all the difference. (No mod wheel - but I use the palette gear & velcro again). The Nord organs and EP's are to die for, and the one drawback is that when I fire it up, I can't help going into 'Ray Charles Blues Brothers mode' for half an hour, rather than getting down to some work. 

I know you are thinking - that's damned expensive for a controller setup, but they are used as instruments in their own right quite a lot of the time too.

I used to have a Roland XP80 (really regret selling it) and perhaps it's rose tinted spectacles, but I remember the keybed and build quality being way superior to most modern offerings.

I went and tried the Nord Grand, which was nice but big, and the Kronos - which I found frankly to be awful for such a premium keyboard. If I were Korg I'd be embarrassed.

I think it's odd that most synths back in the 80's & early 90's were way better made than they are now, but it might just be me, as I think most things in the 80's were better, except perhaps some of the haircuts.

So I'll stick with what I have for now, in fact I think my next purchase might be a couple of those new analogue Behringer Synths that they keep popping out. By all accounts they are unfeasibly good for the money, and I think they will be tremendous fun. I have an irrational urge to buy an Behringer RD-8 drum machine too - but I'm resisting for now....


----------



## whinecellar

Michael Antrum said:


> ...I think it's odd that most synths back in the 80's & early 90's were way better made than they are now, but it might just be me, as I think most things in the 80's were better...



Nope, not just you. With a few exceptions, they just don’t make them like they used to. Metal bodies, great keybeds, etc. I’ve been on a vintage buying spree and I still think Yamaha’s DX action was one of the best ever made. The higher end Montages are a refined quieter version which is great, and the new keybed Roland designed for the new Fantom/Jupiter line is absolutely stellar - I couldn’t pull myself away from those at NAMM...


----------



## dcoscina

whinecellar said:


> Nope, not just you. With a few exceptions, they just don’t make them like they used to. Metal bodies, great keybeds, etc. I’ve been on a vintage buying spree and I still think Yamaha’s DX action was one of the best ever made. The higher end Montages are a refined quieter version which is great, and the new keybed Roland designed for the new Fantom/Jupiter line is absolutely stellar - I couldn’t pull myself away from those at NAMM...


I know a lot of guys come in the store and dig the new Roland synth weighted board but damn it's loud. I love the Fantom 8 action but that's because it's weighted. 

Someone earlier mentioned the Numa Compact. THey are actually great boards but with some build quality issues. I've seen so many come back since we started carrying them. But the key action is nice and nimble but not noisy. I had thought of going that route with the Compact 2X with the organ sliders that also double as control sliders too. Still might but part of me is so used to a weighted keybed, I need to wait to try out both Roland A88ii and the RD88 before I commit.


----------



## Geoff Grace

whinecellar said:


> On the upside, the pitch and model wheels are in the right place. Bonkers that other mfrs don’t get this right!!!


Keep in mind that the "right place" for one isn't necessarily the right place for all. There are gigging keyboardists who have to regularly stuff their 'boards, stands, amps, etc. into sedans, and many of them don't want their 88s to be any wider than 88 keys. They vote with their wallets—just like people who like pitch and mod to the left of their keys—and manufacturers try to meet the needs of both camps.

Best,

Geoff


----------



## Alex Fraser

I think the key is being honest about what you do in front of the computer.
Blocking out parts, programming, fussing with CC curves, using the mod wheel for dynamics...none of this requires 88 hammers in front of you getting in the way.

Like Jim, I've done the long working hours on weighted keys and it's romantic, but wearing. For me, cheapo semi-weighted for the daily stuff is just fine. The hammers can be off to one side for when they're actually needed. That way, size and ergonomics aren't a concern.

For live performance, that's another thing of course.

My 2c.


----------



## lastmessiah

A while ago I moved past the rather antiquated idea that a traditional keybed is required for MIDI note input. Bought a Roli Seaboard and Lightpad M. The Seaboard acts as the master controller while the Lightpad handles ancillary CC/expression duties. But the Lightpad is a very capable and playable controller in its own right, especially for the size.

You can switch the Seaboard from MPE to basic MIDI functionality (though why would you want to). It is the best controller for synths and most sample playback that I've tried, and feels like a real instrument rather than a cheap interface. 

For "piano" and mechanical keys I have an M-Audio Hammer 88 set up on a keyboard rack. It is ok. The action still isn't comparable to a standard digital piano from Yamaha or whatever.


----------



## Pietro

This one is an instabuy for me!

(except it doesn't exist :D) 

- Piotr


----------



## bill5

dcoscina said:


> Honestly, I haven't played a Nectar that I didn't want to chuck into a landfill. The action is horrible. No weight and cheap. The new Keystation 61mk3 have a nice semi weighted action. Build quality is another thing however.
> 
> M Audio Hammer 88 for the budget conscious is honestly the best bet. Simple layout, but really good action. Also leans on the heavier side but for $499 CAD, it's a steal. I think Mark Isham replaced his old KS88 PRO with it. It's solid.


Interesting, I usually hear just the opposite of these two. Is that even true of the newer LX88+?


----------



## dcoscina

Alex Fraser said:


> I think the key is being honest about what you do in front of the computer.
> Blocking out parts, programming, fussing with CC curves, using the mod wheel for dynamics...none of this requires 88 hammers in front of you getting in the way.
> 
> Like Jim, I've done the long working hours on weighted keys and it's romantic, but wearing. For me, cheapo semi-weighted for the daily stuff is just fine. The hammers can be off to one side for when they're actually needed. That way, size and ergonomics aren't a concern.
> 
> For live performance, that's another thing of course.
> 
> My 2c.


I used a Keylab 49mk2 for a few weeks over the holidays and it was great for orchestral writing


----------



## tokatila

How about this puppy? Comes with the traditional modwheel too....


----------



## Alex Fraser

tokatila said:


> How about this puppy? Comes with the traditional modwheel too....


Arrgh! To all the manufacturers: The wheels go on the left. Not the top. The left. THE LEFT!!
<sweeps desk clear in rage>


----------



## tokatila

Alex Fraser said:


> Arrgh! To all the manufacturers: The wheels go on the left. Not the top. The left. THE LEFT!!
> <sweeps desk clear in rage>



Well it's on top left corner. You need to stretch your lats.


----------



## LudovicVDP

tmhuud said:


> <<Honestly, I haven't played a Nectar that I didn't want to chuck into a landfill.>>
> 
> I couldn’t agree more.



Yeah.I've said that a few times around here as well.
Unplayable. 
But looking at the low price tag, small dimensions (for under the desk), integration with Cubase, reactive support team...: It fills the bill for me.


----------



## Alex Fraser

Second that re the Nectar support team - they're very good.
Strange - out of the cheaper stuff, I've always found the Netars fairly playable. The keybeds aren't the nicest but the velocity response on the 3 units I've had were better than the Alesis/M-Audios etc.


----------



## whinecellar

Michael Antrum said:


> Has anyone hand their paws on the new Arturia Keylab Essential 88 ?
> 
> 88 key with hybrid synth piano action and after touch for 350 euros... might be an interesting alternative to the M Audio...



Just got one today, and I gotta say, it's really impressive - let alone for $350. First thing that surprised me is that it feels really substantial - the bottom is metal, not plastic, and the top and sides feel really high quality. I expected it to feel extremely cheap and plasticky.

The action itself is semi-weighted and fast, but still has a nice bit of resistance and bounce to it - it doesn't feel like empty plastic. Having had surgery on both hands last summer and still dealing with some pain when playing heavy weighted actions, this is exactly what I was looking for until I can get back to a heavier action. And frankly, I can imagine ending up with this permanently given the need for 88 keys but without a heavy, slow action. Oh, and it has pitch & mod wheels even if they're top left rather than beside the keys where they belong. And finally, all the pads, buttons and faders are a nice bonus and feel decent.

If I'm nitpicking, you can't adjust velocity curves onboard - you need their app for that, and the curves aren't editable. Further, none of them is perfect for me, so I'll need to create a MIDI transformer in Logic to tweak to taste. Also, the white keys are 5.5" rather than the full 6", but easy to adapt to. For whatever reason, every semi-weighted action I know of is like this. Last thing: the front edge of the "lip" on the white keys is a bit sharp - could be smoother. 

All things considered, I think this is the controller to beat right now for my $$$!


----------



## Michael Antrum

Look rather smart doesn't it ?


----------



## Fredeke

I wonder how the aftertouch feels. It was way too stiff on the mk1.

Also: can you save configurations without going through their software editor?


----------



## MisteR

Fredeke said:


> I wonder how the aftertouch feels. It was way too stiff on the mk1.
> 
> Also: can you save configurations without going through their software editor?


If you mean the Arturia, I don’t think the “essential “ line has aftertouch. Not listed on specs. Only velocity.


----------



## whinecellar

MisteR said:


> If you mean the Arturia, I don’t think the “essential “ line has aftertouch. Not listed on specs. Only velocity.



Correct. Velocity only.


----------



## Fredeke

MisteR said:


> If you mean the Arturia, I don’t think the “essential “ line has aftertouch. Not listed on specs. Only velocity.


No, I was talking about the original Roland A-Pro series.

I love the super expressive aftertouch of the non-essential Arturia keyboards, btw.


----------



## Montfort

dcoscina said:


> Since I work in keyboards in a retail store I have had the benefit of playing everything. Nord Grand and Piano 4 are lovely on their own but surprisingly not great as master controllers (the velocity curves aren't well suited to orchestral composing in my experience).
> 
> Komplete Kontrol S88mk2 is nice but very heavy weighting. Moreso than my Kurzweil PC3x. Same Fatar bed is found in the Arturia Keylab 88mk2. I used a Keylab 49 mk2 over the holidays and loved the weighted synth action by the way. Perfect for orchestral composing. Same bed found on their MatrixBrute.
> 
> Yamaha CP88 and CP73 are both very good as stand alone and master controllers. They also transmit MIDI and audio over USB. Yamaha P515 (with speakers) is also nice. A bit cheaper than the CP series.
> 
> Our store carries Dexibell and their S9 controller is a beast thanks to wood keys, motorized faders, unlimited polyphony and the ability to download sounds from their website. But it's very expensive (I dare say over priced given the competition at the $5000 price point).
> 
> Recently got in a Fantom 8 and the RD2000 key action is nice but heavy. I dig it however. Thinking an RD series might be my next purchase or else the A88mk2 (I don't care about aftertouch and I could put a NanoKontrol on top of the board for sliders).
> 
> I'm not particularly warm to the RH3 keyboard found on Korg's Kronos 73/88 as well as their GS-173/188 but I like it on their SV series. Not tried the D1 but I know a few people who bought them just as controllers.
> 
> Honestly, I haven't played a Nectar that I didn't want to chuck into a landfill. The action is horrible. No weight and cheap. The new Keystation 61mk3 have a nice semi weighted action. Build quality is another thing however.
> 
> M Audio Hammer 88 for the budget conscious is honestly the best bet. Simple layout, but really good action. Also leans on the heavier side but for $499 CAD, it's a steal. I think Mark Isham replaced his old KS88 PRO with it. It's solid.
> 
> As I said above, I'm waiting on the Roland A88 since I like its footprint (I have a small desk) but I'm not sure about the PHA-4 action. If its exactly the same as found on the FP10, I'm going to pass and probably get the NI S88mk2 since we get it for a ridiculous staff discount. Or if funds are low, the Hammer 88. I would prefer a more nimble weighted action like my current PC3x but that is more in the Dexibell/Nord price point.



I'm not in the position to have played most of these or have any great knowledge about them, so I really appreciate your taking the time to do this!


----------



## dcoscina

tokatila said:


> How about this puppy? Comes with the traditional modwheel too....


The Roland rep has been buy our store three times with this and yes, it feels and sounds terrific. I’m seriously considering replacing my PC3x with it. Should have the same keybed as the A88mk2 as well


----------



## SupremeFist

Montfort said:


> I'm not in the position to have played most of these or have any great knowledge about them, so I really appreciate your taking the time to do this!


For comparison, I just ordered a Roland FP10 because I found it vastly better than the M-Audio Hammer and also preferable to the S88. Different strokes.


----------



## Montfort

dcoscina said:


> ...I'm not particularly warm to the RH3 keyboard found on Korg's Kronos 73/88 as well as their GS-173/188 but I like it on their SV series. Not tried the D1 but I know a few people who bought them just as controllers...
> 
> As I said above, I'm waiting on the Roland A88 since I like its footprint (I have a small desk) but I'm not sure about the PHA-4 action...



So, a second response from me based on this helpful post. 

First, I'm curious about a particular aspect of anyone's experience with the Korg D1. The D1 's RH3 keyboard itself gets rave reviews, but as far as I can tell you can only use one pedal -either what comes with it, or upgrading to the half-damper version. Wouldn't "real pianists" (of which, by my standards anyway, I am not one), want all 3 pedals? This seems a curious mismatch of features, given how good the RH3 keyboard is. And by the way, it's inexplicable to me how, as they've done with the D1, you leave a USB port off of any digital keyboard built these days! What's that -$3 or $4 in parts?

Second, I have both a Roland A-33 and a Roland A-88 (mki) so am not too inclined to want to pick up this mkii. But if I didn't have a mki, it's not the aftertouch omission but the PHA-4 action choice on the mkii that would more dissuade me. While the PHA-4 is supposed to be somewhat better than the IFG found in the original A-88 (but how much -can anyone who's played both say?), a PHA-II / -III or even the PHA-50 (which succeeded the PHA-4) would be far more appealing. I have a Nektar P6 (as well as some M-Audio keystations I bought a while ago and need to sell) for playing in orchestral and synth-feel type parts, so for me an 88 key controller / keyboard is something I really want a nice piano feel from. 

I should confess that I'm no expert on the various keybeds -my comments here are based on poking around I've done on forums and websites in attempting to get some understanding about the options. If I've mischaracterized something, I trust someone will set me straight. As others have often observed, the "perfect" keyboard controller in this price range doesn't seem to exist, but is more a matter of being able to live with the compromises each entails.


----------



## whinecellar

I actually really like the D1 and its RH3 keybed - it’s one of the top contenders for a pro-feeling weighted action. Not so heavy that it’s sluggish; not spongy like the StudioLogic/Fatar stuff (although I like their SL88 Grand, but I am concerned about a lot of reliability issues I’ve seen). The Roland stuff (RD2000, A88mkII, Fantom 8) feels pretty great for piano parts but is a tad too sluggish and heavy to me for anything else. The Korg D1 feels as close as I’ve found to ideal, and it’s Japanese made. Downside: bare bones - no USB (!) and no pitch/mod wheels. But if you just want a top notch action, it’s one of the only contenders out there...


----------



## JamieLang

But, it's Roland and Korg both....since the beginning of time. If you want a positive--it's WAY better to play Hammond with a stick set to toggle the Leslie speed than a wheel. Reach over and sort of slap that joystick like I do the half moon switch. 

Yamaha and Kurzweil in the other corner.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

whinecellar said:


> Just got one today, and I gotta say, it's really impressive - let alone for $350. First thing that surprised me is that it feels really substantial - the bottom is metal, not plastic, and the top and sides feel really high quality. I expected it to feel extremely cheap and plasticky.
> 
> The action itself is semi-weighted and fast, but still has a nice bit of resistance and bounce to it - it doesn't feel like empty plastic. Having had surgery on both hands last summer and still dealing with some pain when playing heavy weighted actions, this is exactly what I was looking for until I can get back to a heavier action. And frankly, I can imagine ending up with this permanently given the need for 88 keys but without a heavy, slow action. Oh, and it has pitch & mod wheels even if they're top left rather than beside the keys where they belong. And finally, all the pads, buttons and faders are a nice bonus and feel decent.
> 
> If I'm nitpicking, you can't adjust velocity curves onboard - you need their app for that, and the curves aren't editable. Further, none of them is perfect for me, so I'll need to create a MIDI transformer in Logic to tweak to taste. Also, the white keys are 5.5" rather than the full 6", but easy to adapt to. For whatever reason, every semi-weighted action I know of is like this. Last thing: the front edge of the "lip" on the white keys is a bit sharp - could be smoother.
> 
> All things considered, I think this is the controller to beat right now for my $$$!




Still enjoying this?

Anybody else tried / bought the A88-MK2?


----------



## whinecellar

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Still enjoying this?
> 
> Anybody else tried / bought the A88-MK2?



Sadly no - I really had high hopes for that controller. It felt great in a lot of ways, but I just could not get the velocity curves right on it no matter how hard I tried. Same with every similar semi-weighed action out there. And for some stupid reason, they all use keys that are 1/2” shorter than fully weighted piano keys/actions, and that makes a difference.

I ended up with a Korg D1, which is perfect for me. Weighted, full sized keys but not a super heavy/sluggish action.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

whinecellar said:


> Sadly no - I really had high hopes for that controller. It felt great in a lot of ways, but I just could not get the velocity curves right on it no matter how hard I tried. Same with every similar semi-weighed action out there. And for some stupid reason, they all use keys that are 1/2” shorter than fully weighted piano keys/actions, and that makes a difference.
> 
> I ended up with a Korg D1, which is perfect for me. Weighted, full sized keys but not a super heavy/sluggish action.



Bummer - I like that it is so thin in terms of height. Pretty much everything else is 4.7 - 5" (twice the height). I've read that the M-Audio Hammer 88 has decent light action (I don't think too heavy of an action would be handy for non-piano parts).


----------



## dcoscina

SupremeFist said:


> For comparison, I just ordered a Roland FP10 because I found it vastly better than the M-Audio Hammer and also preferable to the S88. Different strokes.


That actually uses the same PHA-4 keybed as the A88mk2. Quiet, though it's housed in a plastic case rather than the metal one that the A88mk2 comes in (its left hand controller part is plastic however)


----------



## dcoscina

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Bummer - I like that it is so thin in terms of height. Pretty much everything else is 4.7 - 5" (twice the height). I've read that the M-Audio Hammer 88 has decent light action (I don't think too heavy of an action would be handy for non-piano parts).


The Hammer 88 action is NOT light. It's more firm than the Komplete Kontrol S88Mk2 and Keylab 88 mk2. But at its price point, nothing touches it. It is full weighted. For piano playing it would be great. I'm not sure how fast synth work or orchestral ostinati would fare unless you are a really strong player.


----------



## dcoscina

Incidentally, M Audio released their new PRO series of Oxygen controllers with aftertouch. M Audio confirms this key action is not the same as their Mk 3 line of Keystations. I have an order in for the Pro Mini 32 because, gasp! it has 4 programmable sliders AND a pitch and mod wheel. Super cool! 

The 49 and 61 have boxed semi weighted keys with AT. I will see if I can get a staff loan on one of those bad boys.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

dcoscina said:


> The Hammer 88 action is NOT light. It's more firm than the Komplete Kontrol S88Mk2 and Keylab 88 mk2. But at its price point, nothing touches it. It is full weighted. For piano playing it would be great. I'm not sure how fast synth work or orchestral ostinati would fare unless you are a really strong player.



Oh good to know! I had an SL73 Studio for a bit and felt that was much too heavy for non-piano parts. Wonder how the S88 compares to that. Maybe I will just prefer a semi-weighted 88 key controller (have the grand in the other room if I want a real piano anyway).

I have my Yahama P-155 which has pretty nice action for me. Easy to play double-tongued trumpets, so can't be that bad!


----------



## bill5

dcoscina said:


> Incidentally, M Audio released their new PRO series of Oxygen controllers with aftertouch. M Audio confirms this key action is not the same as their Mk 3 line of Keystations. I have an order in for the Pro Mini 32 because, gasp! it has 4 programmable sliders AND a pitch and mod wheel. Super cool!
> 
> The 49 and 61 have boxed semi weighted keys with AT. I will see if I can get a staff loan on one of those bad boys.


No 88 key version : pissed :


----------



## dcoscina

bill5 said:


> No 88 key version : pissed :


Yeah kinda a shame though Guy Mitchellmore had an Oxygen 8 and said the velocities were wonky on it. That's my main gripe with all M Audio keyboards- they don't have consistent velocity. Not sure why....


----------



## IFM

dcoscina said:


> Yeah kinda a shame though Guy Mitchellmore had an Oxygen 8 and said the velocities were wonky on it. That's my main gripe with all M Audio keyboards- they don't have consistent velocity. Not sure why....


Same thing with the Arturia KL88mkII. The MkI, although clunky, had smooth curves. The Mk2 was a disaster. The S88mkII at least was correct, but not built as well as the KL unfortunately.


----------



## dcoscina

IFM said:


> Same thing with the Arturia KL88mkII. The MkI, although clunky, had smooth curves. The Mk2 was a disaster. The S88mkII at least was correct, but not built as well as the KL unfortunately.


I will be getting a S88mk2 when my PC3 dies because I get stupid good prices on NI stuff since I work in music retail.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

I see a ton of composers with the Doepfer. I wonder if that’s because it is actually great or because they saw Hans with it.


----------



## Alex Fraser

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I see a ton of composers with the Doepfer. I wonder if that’s because it is actually great or because they saw Hans with it.


Haha!
I've often wondered if it's because it's the thinnest (height) hammer controller out there. At least I haven't another model which is even more so..


----------



## ckett

I've been trying a few 88-key keyboards. Here are my subjective observations:

Roland A88mk2- This is a very excellent controller. The build quality is typical Roland, mostly solid. I actually like the pitch stick for doing pitch bends. Having the knobs and buttons is a nice add but not very usable given how far to the left they are located. The keys are very well constructed. Quiet, not clacky. They are on the heavy side. After an hour of playing my fingers began to tire out. Even though they are heavy you can still play faster phrases. I find the slower/heavier feel to be more in how fast the keys release back up. They are a little slow in this regard. All in all a very good product.

Casio PX-S3000- This was a surprise. Build quality is not too bad. All plastic and very light weight. Very thin and compact. The key action is very interesting. It is the lightest action of all that I have tried out. Very fast key action with just enough weight to feel like you are playing something like a piano. Works really well for synth work and other instrument sounds that need to be played faster. The keys are mostly on the silent side. They make a strange kind of rattle when you release the keys. It isnt a fault in quality but part of the compact design mechanism. And this keyboard includes a pitch wheel!

Korg D1- Fairly good build quality. Had to order 3 as the other 2 had damaged keys during shipment. Korg use a very small box with very little foam protection so any shock during shipping can break the keys. The key action is very good. Quick, responsive action. Lighter weight than the Roland PHA-4 but not a light action either. The keys have a little bit of a hard bottom that makes a distinct contact sound even when playing softly. Kind of a very soft pop to it. Compact size with no pitch or mod controls. No USB midi.

Roland RD2000- Very good build quality. Very heavy! You get the Roland pitch stick plus two mod wheels. Knob encoders and sliders are so so. This keyboard is all about the action. The PHA-50 key action is fantastic. Lighter than the A88 with a faster release response from the keys. The weight is very similar to the Korg D1. Quiet downward contact, no clacky sound. Just a pleasure to play on.

Other mentions:

Native Instruments S88 mkii - This was the keyboard I wanted to work the most. It is such an impressive design. Pitch mod wheels on the side, 8 encoders with beautiful LCD screens. No sliders though. It came down to the keys. Sluggish, heavy, not a joy to play. I tried out 5 different boards and they all had one or two defective keys that would click or clack. If this keyboard had any of the above listed keybeds it would be amazing!

M-Audio Hammer 88- Not bad! Heavy-ish action. A little clacky at times.

Hope this helps some people with their search!


----------



## Vas

A bit OT but someone had space limitations so this link may be useful:
Which THIN midi keyboard controller to get?
https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=102&t=555740&p=7948751#p7948751

and

Keyboard Review: Nektar Impact LX88
https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=102&t=436271


----------



## dcoscina

ckett said:


> I've been trying a few 88-key keyboards. Here are my subjective observations:
> 
> Roland A88mk2- This is a very excellent controller. The build quality is typical Roland, mostly solid. I actually like the pitch stick for doing pitch bends. Having the knobs and buttons is a nice add but not very usable given how far to the left they are located. The keys are very well constructed. Quiet, not clacky. They are on the heavy side. After an hour of playing my fingers began to tire out. Even though they are heavy you can still play faster phrases. I find the slower/heavier feel to be more in how fast the keys release back up. They are a little slow in this regard. All in all a very good product.
> 
> Casio PX-S3000- This was a surprise. Build quality is not too bad. All plastic and very light weight. Very thin and compact. The key action is very interesting. It is the lightest action of all that I have tried out. Very fast key action with just enough weight to feel like you are playing something like a piano. Works really well for synth work and other instrument sounds that need to be played faster. The keys are mostly on the silent side. They make a strange kind of rattle when you release the keys. It isnt a fault in quality but part of the compact design mechanism. And this keyboard includes a pitch wheel!
> 
> Korg D1- Fairly good build quality. Had to order 3 as the other 2 had damaged keys during shipment. Korg use a very small box with very little foam protection so any shock during shipping can break the keys. The key action is very good. Quick, responsive action. Lighter weight than the Roland PHA-4 but not a light action either. The keys have a little bit of a hard bottom that makes a distinct contact sound even when playing softly. Kind of a very soft pop to it. Compact size with no pitch or mod controls. No USB midi.
> 
> Roland RD2000- Very good build quality. Very heavy! You get the Roland pitch stick plus two mod wheels. Knob encoders and sliders are so so. This keyboard is all about the action. The PHA-50 key action is fantastic. Lighter than the A88 with a faster release response from the keys. The weight is very similar to the Korg D1. Quiet downward contact, no clacky sound. Just a pleasure to play on.
> 
> Other mentions:
> 
> Native Instruments S88 mkii - This was the keyboard I wanted to work the most. It is such an impressive design. Pitch mod wheels on the side, 8 encoders with beautiful LCD screens. No sliders though. It came down to the keys. Sluggish, heavy, not a joy to play. I tried out 5 different boards and they all had one or two defective keys that would click or clack. If this keyboard had any of the above listed keybeds it would be amazing!
> 
> M-Audio Hammer 88- Not bad! Heavy-ish action. A little clacky at times.
> 
> Hope this helps some people with their search!


Yup your assessment is pretty much the same as mine. I'm actually dreading when my PC3x dies because I love the action. It's light enough for orchestral composing but still heavy enough for piano playing. The 8 faders are terrific and it's got a low profile so it can sit on top of my desk without causing carpal tunnel.


----------



## ckett

dcoscina said:


> Yup your assessment is pretty much the same as mine. I'm actually dreading when my PC3x dies because I love the action. It's light enough for orchestral composing but still heavy enough for piano playing. The 8 faders are terrific and it's got a low profile so it can sit on top of my desk without causing carpal tunnel.


Have tried the keys on the PC4? Wondering if they are any good.


----------



## dcoscina

ckett said:


> Have tried the keys on the PC4? Wondering if they are any good.


I have indeed! They seem very similar to the PC3 and were it not for the high price, I probably would move to that. My only issue is that the keybed is housed in a cheap plastic case, unless the PC3x which is a metal chassis. I think this somewhat affects the aesthetic appeal of the key action. But they are similar in balance and throw. I also like that the PC4 has those programmable sliders. It is much superior to the S88mk2 which I think I'd get frustrated with. I had one in my studio on loan from the store I work at and I recall not loving it. I had the A88 for a good month and loved the key action but it is a very deep set keybed and really needs to be under a desk not on top. And I missed the mod wheel and sliders. 

The PC4 also has some nice newer samples from the Forte and Artis series so it's nice as a stand alone instrument as well. And the built in sequencer is far more intelligent than the previous one. It's a good board but I think it's already been discontinued... :(

Kurzweil should gut the PC series and just sell a controller with no sounds for let's say $1295 CAD. That would put it in direct competition with the Roland and Native INstruments. I'd buy that in a second.


----------



## dcoscina

Ask and ye shall receive






KM88 - KURZWEIL It's the Sound®







kurzweil.com





holy shit...

MAP is $599 USD... yeah, no sliders and no mod wheel (why Kurzweil, why???) but at that price I will plunk a Korg Nano Kontrol on top and that's it.


----------



## Markrs

ckett said:


> I've been trying a few 88-key keyboards. Here are my subjective observations:
> 
> Roland A88mk2- This is a very excellent controller. The build quality is typical Roland, mostly solid. I actually like the pitch stick for doing pitch bends. Having the knobs and buttons is a nice add but not very usable given how far to the left they are located. The keys are very well constructed. Quiet, not clacky. They are on the heavy side. After an hour of playing my fingers began to tire out. Even though they are heavy you can still play faster phrases. I find the slower/heavier feel to be more in how fast the keys release back up. They are a little slow in this regard. All in all a very good product.
> 
> Casio PX-S3000- This was a surprise. Build quality is not too bad. All plastic and very light weight. Very thin and compact. The key action is very interesting. It is the lightest action of all that I have tried out. Very fast key action with just enough weight to feel like you are playing something like a piano. Works really well for synth work and other instrument sounds that need to be played faster. The keys are mostly on the silent side. They make a strange kind of rattle when you release the keys. It isnt a fault in quality but part of the compact design mechanism. And this keyboard includes a pitch wheel!
> 
> Korg D1- Fairly good build quality. Had to order 3 as the other 2 had damaged keys during shipment. Korg use a very small box with very little foam protection so any shock during shipping can break the keys. The key action is very good. Quick, responsive action. Lighter weight than the Roland PHA-4 but not a light action either. The keys have a little bit of a hard bottom that makes a distinct contact sound even when playing softly. Kind of a very soft pop to it. Compact size with no pitch or mod controls. No USB midi.
> 
> Roland RD2000- Very good build quality. Very heavy! You get the Roland pitch stick plus two mod wheels. Knob encoders and sliders are so so. This keyboard is all about the action. The PHA-50 key action is fantastic. Lighter than the A88 with a faster release response from the keys. The weight is very similar to the Korg D1. Quiet downward contact, no clacky sound. Just a pleasure to play on.
> 
> Other mentions:
> 
> Native Instruments S88 mkii - This was the keyboard I wanted to work the most. It is such an impressive design. Pitch mod wheels on the side, 8 encoders with beautiful LCD screens. No sliders though. It came down to the keys. Sluggish, heavy, not a joy to play. I tried out 5 different boards and they all had one or two defective keys that would click or clack. If this keyboard had any of the above listed keybeds it would be amazing!
> 
> M-Audio Hammer 88- Not bad! Heavy-ish action. A little clacky at times.
> 
> Hope this helps some people with their search!


Fantatstic review of similar 88 key keyboards, appreciate the effort in this. I have the FP10 with Roland PHA-4 keybed which I find a bit sluggish with a slower than ideal release. But this is my first digital piano so will do for me for a few more years.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

dcoscina said:


> Ask and ye shall receive
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KM88 - KURZWEIL It's the Sound®
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kurzweil.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> holy shit...
> 
> MAP is $599 USD... yeah, no sliders and no mod wheel (why Kurzweil, why???) but at that price I will plunk a Korg Nano Kontrol on top and that's it.



No release date? Sweetwater says “expected in a few months”.


----------



## Vas

Piano World has many reviews/opinions/comments on midi keyboards and their action.





Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards - Piano World Piano & Digital Piano Forums


The Piano Forums are an online community of piano lovers including piano industry professionals, concert artists, recording artists, technicians, dealers, manufacturers, and thousands of enthusiastic amateur pianist




forum.pianoworld.com


----------



## dcoscina

ALittleNightMusic said:


> No release date? Sweetwater says “expected in a few months”.


yeah that's about right... This model was announced at NAMM 2020 but aside from a mere glimpse from PianoMan Chuck's YT video, there was nary any info about it. Looks like development took a little longer... But great price if it's the same keybed as the PC4


----------



## bill5

ckett said:


> Casio PX-S3000- This was a surprise. Build quality is not too bad. All plastic and very light weight. Very thin and compact. The key action is very interesting. It is the lightest action of all that I have tried out. Very fast key action with just enough weight to feel like you are playing something like a piano. Works really well for synth work and other instrument sounds that need to be played faster. The keys are mostly on the silent side.


FWIW (maybe nothing) I haven't tried that model, but every Casio keyboard I ever tried had loud, klunky keys. I only wish I lived near someplace that had it on demo...


----------



## ckett

bill5 said:


> FWIW (maybe nothing) I haven't tried that model, but every Casio keyboard I ever tried had loud, klunky keys. I only wish I lived near someplace that had it on demo...


The lower end Casio keys have kind of made a rattle noise in the past. This new series is much improved. I would take this key-bed over any synth key-bed midi controller out there.


----------



## bill5

Not sure where you're drawing the line, but I'm including the Privia line in there (granted not controllers).


----------



## Andy Davidson

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Oh good to know! I had an SL73 Studio for a bit and felt that was much too heavy for non-piano parts. Wonder how the S88 compares to that. Maybe I will just prefer a semi-weighted 88 key controller (have the grand in the other room if I want a real piano anyway).
> 
> I have my Yahama P-155 which has pretty nice action for me. Easy to play double-tongued trumpets, so can't be that bad!



Just to add to this, I had a SL88 Studio and found it too heavy, too sluggish, so i swapped it for the M-Audio Hammer 88 and it was love at first play! For me, the Hammer-88 is certainly a crisper action than the more sluggish SL, it's also lighter too. I got it to play piano, but now use it for everything, synths, leads the lot. i was going to use it with my Novation SL61 Mk3 which has a semi-weighted keybed, the Hammer for the piano stuff, the Novation for everything else. I've ended up using the Hammer 88 for everything and the SL61 is under dust covers in the corner, practically redundant!

If you can get to a store give the Hammer 88 try, it's a great controller and when you take into account the price, it's an amazing deal. If you can't visit a store,get a good returns option when you buy online, well worth the risk of trying it if you're tempted. I love mine!


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Well tried out my Yamaha P-155 under my desk today. Must tip my hat to those of you who have figured out a working solution of the keyboard under the desk, but for me, it was just ergonomically horrible. No space for the legs unless you raise the desk, but then the computer keyboard and mouse height is awkward. Stretching over the MIDI keyboard to type something in or edit via the mouse gave me a back ache after 20 minutes. I've gone back to my trusty setup of an S61 on the desk surface in front of me, with my computer keyboard and mouse in front of it.


----------



## IFM

Well time to dig this thread up. I possibly am looking to replace the S88mkII with a controller that doesn't have anything in the center so that I can place the Mac's wireless keyboard there instead.

So far I see that leaves the LMK2+, Hammer 88, and the A88mkII. 

From any photo and video, it's somewhat hard to tell the angle that the H88 has on the casing as I'd be concerned about the keyboard moving. The Roland and Doepfer are flat. I noticed Christian doing this same thing with his LMK. I also would need to attach the tiny tablet I use for CC on the left, but that gets mounted down so not worried about pitch angle there.


----------



## Andy Davidson

IFM said:


> Well time to dig this thread up. I possibly am looking to replace the S88mkII with a controller that doesn't have anything in the center so that I can place the Mac's wireless keyboard there instead.
> 
> So far I see that leaves the LMK2+, Hammer 88, and the A88mkII.
> 
> From any photo and video, it's somewhat hard to tell the angle that the H88 has on the casing as I'd be concerned about the keyboard moving. The Roland and Doepfer are flat. I noticed Christian doing this same thing with his LMK. I also would need to attach the tiny tablet I use for CC on the left, but that gets mounted down so not worried about pitch angle there.


I've done exactly this with my Hammer 88 and I love the setup, there's nothing to get in the way! I've a couple of midi controllers and either a laptop or a QWERTY keyboard and monitor on mine and it's working a treat.

I made a little shelf at the back on the H88 so that there's a little more space to put things on. I bought a simple length of decking timber. I it cut to the length of the H88 and with the off-cuts I made too legs to the height of the H88 and fixed the shelf across it, worked out way better than I thought, love this setup now! 

There is a little slope, I'd guess less than an inch drop from the back of the H88 to the very front where it meets the keys. But the QWERTY keyboard sits on it fine without sliding etc. I've got some of those self adhesive felts protector pads under the kit, so it doesn't scratch the H88 panel and that gives it a bit of grip too.

The little slope that is there is great as it angles the gear to a more readable position, if totally flat I found I was having to look down and over them, whereas with the tiny slope, they're angled towards me.

Because this works so well, I'm not worried about sliding the H88 under a desk when not in use, it's pretty much in use all the time! Also, I am tempted to buy another piece of timber and make a keyboard cover for it, so if I do a lot at the PC, I'll simply layer this piece across the keys and it'll become an arm rest - similar to a piano keyboard lid on a real piano.

Also, I'd said before, I love the H-88 for the price it's unbeatable and it feels a lot more expensive than it is!

Hope this helps, give me a shout if you'd like more accurate dimensions, I'm away from the H-88 right now, but can update later etc.

Cheers,

Andy.


----------



## IFM

Andy Davidson said:


> I've done exactly this with my Hammer 88 and I love the setup, there's nothing to get in the way! I've a couple of midi controllers and either a laptop or a QWERTY keyboard and monitor on mine and it's working a treat.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Andy.


Thanks for this! May just end up getting one. The S88, which I do like, would go to replace the Keylab 88 (original) in my live/synth set since the KL88 has some issues with worn graphics and a faulty slider. It can be a spare.


----------



## Andy Davidson

IFM said:


> Thanks for this! May just end up getting one. The S88, which I do like, would go to replace the Keylab 88 (original) in my live/synth set since the KL88 has some issues with worn graphics and a faulty slider. It can be a spare.


Sounds a good plan, I've said it before, but I do love the Hammer-88, but then one person's dream keybed is another's nightmare, you never know until you play them! But i highly recommend the H-88, best purchase I've made in ages!


----------



## Michael Antrum

IFM said:


> Well time to dig this thread up. I possibly am looking to replace the S88mkII with a controller that doesn't have anything in the center so that I can place the Mac's wireless keyboard there instead.
> 
> So far I see that leaves the LMK2+, Hammer 88, and the A88mkII.
> 
> From any photo and video, it's somewhat hard to tell the angle that the H88 has on the casing as I'd be concerned about the keyboard moving.  The Roland and Doepfer are flat. I noticed Christian doing this same thing with his LMK. I also would need to attach the tiny tablet I use for CC on the left, but that gets mounted down so not worried about pitch angle there.


Kawai VPC1 is worth a look too.....


----------



## IFM

Well tried the Hammer 88 and did not like it at all. Extremely clacky and the black keys seem loose as they wobble from side to side. It also has too much of a curved top to put the mac's keyboard without double-sided tape. Tried it for all of maybe 10 minutes then packed it back up. I'll stick to the S88mkII which I really do like...just wish the case was metal and not plastic but that's minor.


----------



## Andy Davidson

IFM said:


> Well tried the Hammer 88 and did not like it at all. Extremely clacky and the black keys seem loose as they wobble from side to side. It also has too much of a curved top to put the mac's keyboard without double-sided tape. Tried it for all of maybe 10 minutes then packed it back up. I'll stick to the S88mkII which I really do like...just wish the case was metal and not plastic but that's minor.


I feel guilty for singing the Hammer - 88's praises now, but I do love mine, just shows what's one person's ideal keybed is another's worst nightmare. Enjoy the S88mkII, all the best.


----------



## dcoscina

Michael Antrum said:


> Kawai VPC1 is worth a look too.....


Great board but because of the actually wood sticks/keys, the thing weighs a ton (not literally but it’s a heavy keyboard).
Mind you, I’m old enough to remember using a Roland MKB1000 which also weighed a lot...


----------



## scoringdreams

Had been eyeing the Roland as my next 88-key controller! It's compact and uses USB-C, fancy!

How does the Roland A-88 MK2 compare with a Yamaha CP4 Stage?

I had been exploring alternatives to my Yamaha but have found the ones from Studiologic (SL88-Studio) to be lacking in terms of key bed response / sensitivity. Love the wooden keys too.

Or if not, how does the Roland A-88 MK2 compare to a Studiologic SL-88? Better response?


----------



## IFM

Andy Davidson said:


> I feel guilty for singing the Hammer - 88's praises now, but I do love mine, just shows what's one person's ideal keybed is another's worst nightmare. Enjoy the S88mkII, all the best.


Don't worry about it, it's all subjective. I've settled on a setup to keep the mac's keyboard centered on the desk and just added a 7" tablet as a meter bridge to the S1.


----------



## zolhof

scoringdreams said:


> Had been eyeing the Roland as my next 88-key controller! It's compact and uses USB-C, fancy!
> 
> How does the Roland A-88 MK2 compare with a Yamaha CP4 Stage?
> 
> I had been exploring alternatives to my Yamaha but have found the ones from Studiologic (SL88-Studio) to be lacking in terms of key bed response / sensitivity. Love the wooden keys too.
> 
> Or if not, how does the Roland A-88 MK2 compare to a Studiologic SL-88? Better response?


I went through a long list of controllers and settled on the FP-30, which uses the same PHA-4 action found on the A-88 MK2. The keys are very responsive both in touch and dynamics, you get a smooth 0-127 velocity range. It doesn't feel clunky and the ivory finish is a huge improvement over the plastic keys in my previous controller (Korg Kronos), providing a solid grip and control. I'm very happy with it!


----------



## dcoscina

scoringdreams said:


> Had been eyeing the Roland as my next 88-key controller! It's compact and uses USB-C, fancy!
> 
> How does the Roland A-88 MK2 compare with a Yamaha CP4 Stage?
> 
> I had been exploring alternatives to my Yamaha but have found the ones from Studiologic (SL88-Studio) to be lacking in terms of key bed response / sensitivity. Love the wooden keys too.
> 
> Or if not, how does the Roland A-88 MK2 compare to a Studiologic SL-88? Better response?


CP4 is an older Yamaha model. Ok but not as nice as the CP88 which makes a great controller and has terrific sounds. I've not played the CP73 yet so I don't know how that feels but it is a different keyboard. The Nord Grand is my personal favorite and has a space on top for my mouse and keyboard. It's just massively expensive. But open-ended sound architecture (Project SAM has been releasing free expansions to load into the Nords these days which is cool).


----------



## scoringdreams

zolhof said:


> I went through a long list of controllers and settled on the FP-30, which uses the same PHA-4 action found on the A-88 MK2. The keys are very responsive both in touch and dynamics, you get a smooth 0-127 velocity range. It doesn't feel clunky and the ivory finish is a huge improvement over the plastic keys in my previous controller (Korg Kronos), providing a solid grip and control. I'm very happy with it!


That sounds great, I am all for wooden keys, which makes the A-88 MK2 really attractive for its price, build, and future-proof connectors.



dcoscina said:


> CP4 is an older Yamaha model. Ok but not as nice as the CP88 which makes a great controller and has terrific sounds. I've not played the CP73 yet so I don't know how that feels but it is a different keyboard. The Nord Grand is my personal favorite and has a space on top for my mouse and keyboard. It's just massively expensive. But open-ended sound architecture (Project SAM has been releasing free expansions to load into the Nords these days which is cool).


I agree, the sound sets within the CP4 are nowhere near the newer versions such as the CP88 and flagship synthesizers from the main manufacturers. Nords are surely the hallmark of professional performance - and as you had mentioned, expensive and IMO, very heavy.


----------



## PaulieDC

Last fall I was so on the fence, Roland A88 MKII or StudioLogic SL88 Grand? Then I discovered that the A88 MKII has the same PH4 keybed as the RD700 which we have at church. It's OK but just a bit too bouncy for me. At the end of the day I wanted a keybed feel that I couldn't wait to get to when I was done with the day job. SL88 Grand absolutely fits that bill with that TP40-Wood keybed. The surprise bonus was that you can actually play smooth legato lines with it... I was sure I was going to have to get a 49er for that. And 6 months in, ZERO quality problems, which we had heard about in the past. Who knows, maybe more care was put in when the factory got back to work after their shut down in early 2020 for you-know-what. Anyway, no Fatar keybed is going to feel just like a grand piano, that's not physically possible, but this keybed feels great for what it is. The Roland PH4 in the A88 MKII isn't quite that for ME... it's all subjective. I use FaderPort 8 for CC and a MixFace for library settings so the cheesy joysticks on the SL88 don't matter much in my world, and you can disable them.


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo

I was looking for a good 88 not long ago and though i would go for the CP88, but
that was nowhere available and i just chose the A88II. Pretty happy with the Keybed,
just the Stick is for decoration. Havnt found a good simple fader yet for Vol/Expression
use...sheessh.

The A88II fits nicely on a Zaor Miza Z Flex, with the Keyboard-Tray mounted at the highest point, 
so there is enough space for the legs for long people:


----------



## rardier

hello, i bought the roland a88 mk2 this monday (cannot test it in store, i bought it because the top is flat so i can slide it under the desk) , i had the NI S88MK2 (the action was ok , a bit sluggish but ok), i had the SL88 grand Great great action but i can't put it under my desk (the joystick on top and the big knob next to the screen) , i had the casio PX5S (cool too but same problem modwheel on top , can't slide under my desk)...but now..i have a problem with the roland a88 , i like it because i like the joystick placmeent in bottom left, i like it because it s silent, the fake ivory make it not slippy BUT it's a bit too heavy my right hand is tired after 5 minutes...(i have an yamaha acoustic piano and the yamaha is really lighter on touch)...so now i'm lost..what would be your advice? is there a 88 midi keyboard that is fast /responsive/silent/not too heavy or do you some finger or hand workout i can do? (i'm thinking about a doepfer or the kurweil km88..maybe the m-audio hammer 88, but i don't like the m-audio brand)


----------



## Jkist

I actually ordered both the new A-88 Mk2 and the Juno DS88. I have to say, the DS absolutely slays the A-88 in every single way except for MIDI 2.0 (in my opinion). The DS comes with a whole plethora of decent sounds, crazy feature set, and best of all it has a screen where you can assign different cc channels.

It has knobs AND faders, AND the cool Roland pitch stick thing. It is expandable, has great I/O, but most of all it has the better keybed. I also found the A-88 much too heavy for my taste, the "Ivory G" keybed on the DS feels perfect. My recommendation is to snag the DS if you can. You will be missing out on MIDI 2.0, but I figure if its that big a deal I will just buy a cheaper 4 octave controller for when I need that or something.


----------



## bill5

Pardon my ignorance, but why is MIDI 2.0 a thing?


----------



## rrichard63

bill5 said:


> Pardon my ignorance, but why is MIDI 2.0 a thing?








Introducing MIDI 2.0


After nearly 40 years everybody's favourite digital music protocol is about to get an upgrade...




www.soundonsound.com













MIDI 2.0: What Actually Matters for Musicians - inSync


You’ve seen articles about the nuts and bolts of MIDI 2.0. Now, find out what it really means to musicians — from a practical, and musical, standpoint.




www.sweetwater.com


----------



## bill5

oy. Thanks - taking this to a new thread to not derail more!


----------



## hmac

Alex Fraser said:


> Second that re the Nectar support team - they're very good.
> Strange - out of the cheaper stuff, I've always found the Netars fairly playable. The keybeds aren't the nicest but the velocity response on the 3 units I've had were better than the Alesis/M-Audios etc.


This (good Nektar support) is welcome news for me. I just returned a Hammer 88 Pro to Guitar Center, mainly due to the complete lack of m-audio support. I would have to say insulting, really. Beware of anything owned by inMusic Brands - their obfuscating support pages are all identical regardless of the individual brand and make it next to impossible to reach a human for even simple registration problems. Even if you reach a human, they drop the call/email chain in the middle of an exchange.
Enough about that! I'm now looking at the Nektar Impact GXP88, as I just need a simple, semi-weighted controller. I'm primarily a sax player and I do everything in Pro Tools/Reason so don't need much in a controller beyond an On switch, pitch & mod wheels, and an Expression pedal input.
_Pro Tools/Reason, 27"imac 4.2ghz 48g ram, Apollo x8, Mackie HR824's, Mackie Control Universal


https://www.youtube.com/user/hmac66










Hal McMillen


Saxophonist/composer. Collaborations welcome. Message me for commercial use of my tracks. All Rights Reserved




soundcloud.com




_


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## cedricm

scoringdreams said:


> Had been eyeing the Roland as my next 88-key controller! It's compact and uses USB-C, fancy!
> 
> How does the Roland A-88 MK2 compare with a Yamaha CP4 Stage?
> 
> I had been exploring alternatives to my Yamaha but have found the ones from Studiologic (SL88-Studio) to be lacking in terms of key bed response / sensitivity. Love the wooden keys too.
> 
> Or if not, how does the Roland A-88 MK2 compare to a Studiologic SL-88? Better response?


I'm not a pro keyboarder, but I bought the SL-88 Studio from one, upgrading to a $$$$ Genos, and I love it. 
Have you tried to configure the keyboard 's sensitivity to your taste with the free SLEditor?


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## Alex Fraser

hmac said:


> This (good Nektar support) is welcome news for me. I just returned a Hammer 88 Pro to Guitar Center, mainly due to the complete lack of m-audio support. I would have to say insulting, really. Beware of anything owned by inMusic Brands - their obfuscating support pages are all identical regardless of the individual brand and make it next to impossible to reach a human for even simple registration problems.


Agreed. The support is pretty hopeless. You're pretty much on your own with the M-Audio stuff. Just as well it's cheap...


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## scoringdreams

cedricm said:


> I'm not a pro keyboarder, but I bought the SL-88 Studio from one, upgrading to a $$$$ Genos, and I love it.
> Have you tried to configure the keyboard 's sensitivity to your taste with the free SLEditor?


I had fiddled around with the SL Editor, but was not too sure on how to increase the responsiveness of the SL-88. My main concern was that it didn't respond well to extremely low dynamic layers (compared to my Yamaha CP4) when I played using the Garritan CFX (at 80-90% dynamics).

I might take it back out from storage and play around with it if the SL-Editor could fix things.


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## cedricm

scoringdreams said:


> I had fiddled around with the SL Editor, but was not too sure on how to increase the responsiveness of the SL-88. My main concern was that it didn't respond well to extremely low dynamic layers (compared to my Yamaha CP4) when I played using the Garritan CFX (at 80-90% dynamics).
> 
> I might take it back out from storage and play around with it if the SL-Editor could fix things.




4:15 if you're in a hurry.


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## Alex_86

Hi everyone! I bought this keyboard. When playing, I feel a delay, a small one, but it's annoying. It does not matter, what buffer size is set in the audio card settings. Is this a feature of this keyboard? I had Roland RD2000 for about year and I don't remember the same problem, when I used it as a midi keyboard. The question came up, should I return it or is this some sort of temporary bug in the drivers for this keyboard ?


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## mybadmemory

I would be very surprised if any latency you’re experiencing came from the midi keyboard. It’s almost certainly computer related, unless you’re connecting via Bluetooth rather than usb.


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## Alex_86

I connect via USB. Maybe it's my subjective feelings. And maybe I just got used to a really fast PHA-50, and after that PHA-4 Standart seems to be some kind of retarded. When playing, I feel a gap between the way I press a key and what I hear afterwards. I tried the old Casio Privia 120 and it's a little faster than the A88MK2. I think it's the keyboard and I just wasn't prepared for that experience. I like the keybed itself when playing without connecting to a PC, but playing through VSTi I don't feel the connection between the keyboard. I regret selling the RD2000.


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## Snoobydoobydoo

Weird, i dont feel any latency at all, recoring is pretty spot on and on par with others i have used. Maybe could it be the velocity settings? Some libraries/vsti‘s respond slower and feel „disconnected“ from the input sometimes.
I haven’t installed any drivers for the A882 though, just pnp. I would check the settings/preset vel. curves in the A88 settings also.


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## Alex_86

Yes, guys, sorry, there was a problem in the velocity curves 😬 Thanks for helping me


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## mybadmemory

How did a velocity curve introduce latency?


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## Alex_86

I don't know, but it feels like you set the buffer size to 512 or 1024 in audio card settings, when the first 3-4 curve presets are selected. The feeling of not connecting your touching the keyboard and what you hear in the end. Specifically on this keyboard, because it's a little slugish may be. I don't know, I've never felt that way before on other keyboards. But anyway, now it`s ok and I`m happy now.


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## mscp

Alex_86 said:


> I don't know, but it feels like you set the buffer size to 512 or 1024 in audio card settings, when the first 3-4 curve presets are selected. The feeling of not connecting your touching the keyboard and what you hear in the end. Specifically on this keyboard, because it's a little slugish may be. I don't know, I've never felt that way before on other keyboards. But anyway, now it`s ok and I`m happy now.


Connect it directly to a synth or sound module via MIDI. Then you will know for sure if it's computer related or not.


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## Zoot_Rollo

Alex Fraser said:


> Agreed. The support is pretty hopeless. You're pretty much on your own with the M-Audio stuff. Just as well it's cheap...


i've had excellent support from M-Audio with a recent issue.


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## quickbrownf0x

I had a quick look at the A88 and it looks almost cool enough to buy, but then as Charlie says - no faders and the pads are placed top-left, which is really weird. I've been thinking of maybe replacing my beloved Fantom-G8 with a really good MIDI keyboard, but to be honest I'm really scared because I love the (Ivory) feel of the Fantom so much. The closest thing I've seen to the real thing if you ask me. And sure, I guess I'm also a bit sentimental about it. 

The main reason to sell it would be because it's all I use my Fantom for - as my main MIDI keyboard/controller. Seems like a waste sometimes.

Decisions, decisions.....


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## StefVR

Guess you have to try it. I had it for a day and immediately hated it. Way too heavy key action. I play grand piano and never had an instrument with this heavy action.

But every taste is different.


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## quickbrownf0x

StefVR said:


> Guess you have to try it. I had it for a day and immediately hated it. Way too heavy key action. I play grand piano and never had an instrument with this heavy action.
> 
> But every taste is different.


You know what? It's funny how it never even occured to me to go to an actual, physical store first. 

Goes to show how much my thinking's changed in such a short period of time. I just ordered 2 protein bars and a small cup of Ben & Jerrys on an app and I got it delivered within the promised 10 minutes (7, actually). Just so I wouldn't have to leave the house. What a spoiled little bastard I am....

But yeah I guess I'll have to go look for a real store, haha.


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## StefVR

Ah I do the same lots of research checking YouTube etc just my experience especially with key actions is there is no way around trying urself. Taste is extremely different individual and subjective.


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## Stevie

I did a brief review of the A-88 MK2 here:

Post in thread '"really good" keyboard?'
https://vi-control.net/community/threads/really-good-keyboard.97843/post-5053312


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## jaketanner

Apologies for yet another rehash. I tried an RD88 at the store and found that playing fast ostinato repeated notes was a bit of a strain. But I’m regards to the A88MKII, triggering VIs, will this also be an issue or do you find that the action is sufficient to play fast repeated notes? I’d rather not use a synth action if I can avoid it. Thanks.


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## Stevie

Playing fast ostinatos works perfectly fine, in my opinion. The good thing is, that you don't need to press the keys all the way down. You can literally just touch them to trigger a note. Of course this is a very personal impression. But I would definitely give the A88MKII a go.


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## THW

Stevie said:


> Playing fast ostinatos works perfectly fine, in my opinion. The good thing is, that you don't need to press the keys all the way down. You can literally just touch them to trigger a note. Of course this is a very personal impression. But I would definitely give the A88MKII a go.


Thanks for sharing your experience with the A88MKII. I was between it and the S88…I’ve read quite a few negative reviews of the S88, but so few of the A88, so I still feel like I’m taking a risk here (I mean no disrespect to your opinion, and I acknowledge keyboards are individual). I do use NKS products quite a bit, but complaints about keys clicking and build quality concerns on the s88 got me concerned. But maybe there are far more happy users not posting their issues because they don’t have any. I’m just curious why I haven’t seen any A88mk2 reviews on YouTube from keyboard reviewers I would expect…or other forums from folks that own this. Is it because these just are not widely available? Is it the price? Is it everyone is so happy with them they can’t be bothered?  im on a waitlist because it’s on back order and am considering going off the list…started reading about the hammer pro and I have the s88 in mind again. I’m not a good pianist but I get by…a hobbyist composer working on sync music. I want a quality instrument that’ll work well with studio one. And I use external controllers for all my automation, nanokontrol and a faderport. I’m sitting here thinking perhaps I’m buying something that is way more expensive than I need. What I do know is that I’m no longer happy with my A series native instrument keyboard. I do not like those keys. I have a P45 that I practice piano on but can’t properly use that because of velocity issues. But I do want a fully weighted keyboard and an upgrade from those. Anyway, I appreciate anyones input or guidance. Thanks for reading


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## Snoobydoobydoo

The P45 vs the 88II is really night and day.  Bought a P45 for my wife about 4 years ago when she wanted to start playing from zero. Got rid of it after a year.


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## THW

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> The P45 vs the 88II is really night and day.  Bought a P45 for my wife about 4 years ago when she wanted to start playing from zero. Got rid of it after a year.


That's great to read! I was trying to make sense of what I was getting at in my previous comment (was rambling on my phone). I appreciated Stevie's detailed review of the A88II and felt inclined to share where I was in the buying process. At the end of they day I don't think I can really go wrong with either the S88 or the A88II...either would be a tremendous upgrade to my current controller. I think I went a bit too deep down the gear review rabbit hole! I think I'm just tired of waiting to make a decision and am unsure if it's worth waiting 1 -1.5 months for the A88II to come back in stock or go ahead and pick up the S88 now. While I am on the waitlist for the A88II I'm leaning at the moment to the S88...about a 6 months ago I had a custom desk built with a keyboard tray specifically to fit the S88 and have been saving up for that and can finally get it. The Roland recently came into play after reading some bad reviews of the S88, so I deep dived...and that usually takes me to ViControl...and now I feel stuck.


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## jaketanner

THW said:


> That's great to read! I was trying to make sense of what I was getting at in my previous comment (was rambling on my phone). I appreciated Stevie's detailed review of the A88II and felt inclined to share where I was in the buying process. At the end of they day I don't think I can really go wrong with either the S88 or the A88II...either would be a tremendous upgrade to my current controller. I think I went a bit too deep down the gear review rabbit hole! I think I'm just tired of waiting to make a decision and am unsure if it's worth waiting 1 -1.5 months for the A88II to come back in stock or go ahead and pick up the S88 now. While I am on the waitlist for the A88II I'm leaning at the moment to the S88...about a 6 months ago I had a custom desk built with a keyboard tray specifically to fit the S88 and have been saving up for that and can finally get it. The Roland recently came into play after reading some bad reviews of the S88, so I deep dived...and that usually takes me to ViControl...and now I feel stuck.


I am a new A88 MKII user. I had the M Audio Hammer 88 V1...I loved it, but the keys were noisy but otherwise it triggered what i needed triggered just fine. I did not experience any issues but I also did not use it nearly as much as I am now using the A88 MKII...at first the keys felt a bit stiff have since loosened up in a good way. I think the lack of reviews is because it's not very popular because of the joystick thing AND because it's longer than it really needs to be. If those two things were addressed, I would imagine this would be a far greater selling and talked about keyboard because the feel is great, and the keys are on the quiet side. I like that the top is completely flat and I can put my Monogram controller on it as well as a mini Akai LPK25 and have plenty of room left over for anything else I want to add. This also is because all the controls are on the left side...so kind of a catch 22 (to keep it thin also, rather than bulky). 

I do have to admit that I was not happy about the joystick thing, but this movie I am working on is a lot of sound design type stuff, and the modulation feedback on the stick feels better to use than a slider...so I have the best of both worlds...but the controller itself is excellent. I also wanted to be ready for when MIDI 2.0 came out.

Hope this helps...

Side note: I got lucky and got one of the few last ones new from Sweetwater for a great price before they had to re-order.


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## THW

jaketanner said:


> I am a new A88 MKII user. I had the M Audio Hammer 88 V1...I loved it, but the keys were noisy but otherwise it triggered what i needed triggered just fine. I did not experience any issues but I also did not use it nearly as much as I am now using the A88 MKII...at first the keys felt a bit stiff have since loosened up in a good way. I think the lack of reviews is because it's not very popular because of the joystick thing AND because it's longer than it really needs to be. If those two things were addressed, I would imagine this would be a far greater selling and talked about keyboard because the feel is great, and the keys are on the quiet side. I like that the top is completely flat and I can put my Monogram controller on it as well as a mini Akai LPK25 and have plenty of room left over for anything else I want to add. This also is because all the controls are on the left side...so kind of a catch 22 (to keep it thin also, rather than bulky).
> 
> I do have to admit that I was not happy about the joystick thing, but this movie I am working on is a lot of sound design type stuff, and the modulation feedback on the stick feels better to use than a slider...so I have the best of both worlds...but the controller itself is excellent. I also wanted to be ready for when MIDI 2.0 came out.
> 
> Hope this helps...
> 
> Side note: I got lucky and got one of the few last ones new from Sweetwater for a great price before they had to re-order.


Thank you! I'm real happy you chimed in and congrats on getting one of the last few from Sweetwater! That is who I plan to purchase from. 

You make a great point about the top being completely flat. I could make great use of the space -- I have one of those atom sq controllers that might fit on there, which would provide easily accessible integration/transport controls with my S1 DAW -- as well as some other cool things I could make more use of than I am now because it'd be in close reach (touchstrip, sequencer, polyphonic aftertouch pads)... and it's got a fairly low profile. 

The joystick thing is what it is-- I don't know how much I'd use it and it would take up space, but I do have the space. Also great to read that the keys are quiet --I like that! With regard to controls on the left side -- I really don't see myself using them all that much if I'm integrating the tools I already have like I'm planning to do. As much as I like conceptually having some cool lights and screens on the S88, if I'm honest I don't think I'd be looking down and fully utilizing them all that much -- at least, if I did, it would be a big shift in how I work. The MIDI 2.0 -- that is appealing having a controller that is ready for the future, whenever that happens. 


Thanks again for commenting! -- I'm going to sleep on it and am back to feeling good about today's decision on the A88 MKII.


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## jaketanner

THW said:


> With regard to controls on the left side -- I really don't see myself using them all that much


i don't either...but the buttons are nice if you need extra controls or toggles, the pan knobs can come in handy since I don't have pans for any synth type stuff...and like I said, it's an option if I want them...I also have the room and I do like the low profile. I also have a desk that I can raise or lower at the push of a button, so that helps fit it perfectly underneath and slides back and forth on furniture movers (I use a Z-stand).


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## Jrides

I spent several hours over a couple of days trying some of the Chi beds mentioned here.
Yamaha P 45 / 125: Felt the most comfortable coming from a semi weighted background. I really wanted to buy this just for piano practice.

Casio various: Lighter action than the Yamaha. A bit too much so for my taste. Kind of loud in comparison to others.

S88 mk2: I came to the store, wanting to love this but I actually ended up hating it.

Rode 88: Key travel was oddly a bit short for my taste. Weird.

I ended up getting a S61 mk2 & Roland FP10. The FP10 apparently shares the same keybed as the A88 MK2. After playing around with it and another piano that shares the same keybed, I can say that the Roland will be drastically different from your Yamaha. Much heavier. This is only when using the normal velocity curve. The light curve is very easy to play if you are used to semi weighted keys. It’s only been a few weeks, but I really enjoy this piano. The Key bed while it took some getting used to, is a good fit for me. Getting the S 61 MK2 and the FP 10 four a little more than (or in my very fortunate case, a little less) the price of the S 88 MK2 gives me the best of both worlds.

I personally am not talented enough to play fast ostinato runs on the Roland. That’s why in part I could justify buying both. YMMV


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## THW

jaketanner said:


> i don't either...but the buttons are nice if you need extra controls or toggles, the pan knobs can come in handy since I don't have pans for any synth type stuff...and like I said, it's an option if I want them...I also have the room and I do like the low profile. I also have a desk that I can raise or lower at the push of a button, so that helps fit it perfectly underneath and slides back and forth on furniture movers (I use a Z-stand).


O very nice! Total game changer for me with the sit/stand. Good call on furniture movers, I was thinking about adding some wheels to mine… I went with this builder and am happy I did, it’s a great desk with a solid iMovr base: https://www.etsy.com/listing/871333...ch_query=music+studio+desk&ref=sr_gallery-1-1


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## THW

Jrides said:


> I spent several hours over a couple of days trying some of the Chi beds mentioned here.
> Yamaha P 45 / 125: Felt the most comfortable coming from a semi weighted background. I really wanted to buy this just for piano practice.
> 
> Casio various: Lighter action than the Yamaha. A bit too much so for my taste. Kind of loud in comparison to others.
> 
> S88 mk2: I came to the store, wanting to love this but I actually ended up hating it.
> 
> Rode 88: Key travel was oddly a bit short for my taste. Weird.
> 
> I ended up getting a S61 mk2 & Roland FP10. The FP10 apparently shares the same keybed as the A88 MK2. After playing around with it and another piano that shares the same keybed, I can say that the Roland will be drastically different from your Yamaha. Much heavier. This is only when using the normal velocity curve. The light curve is very easy to play if you are used to semi weighted keys. It’s only been a few weeks, but I really enjoy this piano. The Key bed while it took some getting used to, is a good fit for me. Getting the S 61 MK2 and the FP 10 four a little more than (or in my very fortunate case, a little less) the price of the S 88 MK2 gives me the best of both worlds.
> 
> I personally am not talented enough to play fast ostinato runs on the Roland. That’s why in part I could justify buying both. YMMV


Congrats on your purchase! That sounds like a great combo and happy it's working out. After my horrible experience trying to tweak velocity curves on the P45 and getting absolutely nowhere I stopped looking at digital pianos, at least in that price range... but I understand that fortunately the FP10 doesn't have those same issues. The P45 I use to practice on and get away from the desk, but it frustrates me that I can't get above 105-110 without slamming the keys. If I had the space would definitely consider that S61 FP10 combo.


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## Snoobydoobydoo

They only things bothering me a bit is
that the Black Keys are a bit slippery, and they can make a light clicking if you press them from the sides. Still much better than the P45. They dont feel cheap, but my Yamaha 675 is superior (but much harder to play).
Good thing is that when im on a Steinway or something similar, the time to adapt from the A88II at home is very short. Coming from the P45, it would feel like switching from a toy. 
The standard velocity curve fits very good for most instruments, and tweaking is rare, but you need to get used to the harder action. Some piano libs i got are hard to tweak (Due ie.) but some like Noire are perfectly fitting for the Roland. I used a Vel. Curve someone with a FP10 made for Noire, but found out it its very fine already on the out of the box linear setting.


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## dcoscina

Not sure if this was mentioned but the RD88 stage piano has pitch and mod wheels. Same action as the A88 but even thinner footprint. I’m planning on getting one whenever my PC3x dies. 

I borrowed various keyboard controllers when I worked in music retail and really hated the Komplete Kontrol S88mk2. Too spongey and the light thingy on the left would be accidentally triggered every time my left hand hand used the mod wheel.


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## THW

dcoscina said:


> Not sure if this was mentioned but the RD88 stage piano has pitch and mod wheels. Same action as the A88 but even thinner footprint. I’m planning on getting one whenever my PC3x dies.
> 
> I borrowed various keyboard controllers when I worked in music retail and really hated the Komplete Kontrol S88mk2. Too spongey and the light thingy on the left would be accidentally triggered every time my left hand hand used the mod wheel.


That touchstrip on left of the S88mk2 is really unfortunate. I read (somewhere on here iirc) that it can be deactivated but wonder if that is only when using komplete kontrol, or if it’s something that can be turned off permanently. 

I was not tracking the RD88 stage piano! That looks like a solid option, indeed lighter footprint…for me its height and not having clean flat top wouldn’t work at the moment but I can see it being a real great pick for some!


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## dcoscina

THW said:


> That touchstrip on left of the S88mk2 is really unfortunate. I read (somewhere on here iirc) that it can be deactivated but wonder if that is only when using komplete kontrol, or if it’s something that can be turned off permanently.
> 
> I was not tracking the RD88 stage piano! That looks like a solid option, indeed lighter footprint…for me its height and not having clean flat top wouldn’t work at the moment but I can see it being a real great pick for some!


The height is possibly a factor because the RD has built in speakers that are set into the chassis. This makes it a very deep keyboard, more so than the A88. I did ask our Roland product rep a couple years ago why they decided to put pitch/mod on a stage piano yet the joystick on the controller. It seemed an odd choice. I now work at Roland so perhaps once I have spent more time in the company, I can find out more. Of course the new Fantom-0 series has got both and a bunch of sliders. They do cost more because of all the sounds and features but they make a solid controller too.


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## Snoobydoobydoo

dcoscina said:


> It seemed an odd choice. I now work at Roland so perhaps once I have spent more time in the company, I can find out more.


Everybody wants wheels  Sales could increase significantly.


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## HCMarkus

I think both the paddle and wheels have their place; I find the paddle superior for adding manual vibrato (pitch bend wiggle) to guitar and synth leads. I like the pitch wheel for scooping into horn parts.

The mod wheel is important for the reasons Charlie mentioned at the top of this thread but, when one is not available (like on the Roland products), it can easily be worked around by assigning a rotary/fader control to CC1. I've not had any issue with false CC1 triggers from a Roland paddle.


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## jaketanner

THW said:


> O very nice! Total game changer for me with the sit/stand. Good call on furniture movers, I was thinking about adding some wheels to mine… I went with this builder and am happy I did, it’s a great desk with a solid iMovr base: https://www.etsy.com/listing/871333545/sitstand-music-studio-desk-adjustable?click_key=b0e2519c06c71561e898b50fb3511d2f9772662e:871333545&click_sum=fc1a00e4&ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=music+studio+desk&ref=sr_gallery-1-1


Nice desk...I am always skeptical as to how sturdy the slide out trays are for heavy 88 key controllers...I have never used one that didn't have some movement...the Z stand is rock solid and it makes playing piano much closer to an acoustic because it doesn't move at all...


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## jonnybutter

Dewdman42 said:


> I can't possibly see how many people could fit a VPC in front of their DAW. I certainly can't. If you have a trick custom desk..of course you can make anything work.


I do, and no trick desk. It’s not the most ergonomic but worth it to me because I spend a regular amount of time really just practicing piano. I have a swopper and go up or down depending on what I’m doing. When recording midi stuff or editing I often have qwerty keyboard on the keys of the VPC (which is off) and play the synth keyboard on top of it. Kludgy but it’s a small space and does everything I want. VPC is pretty durable and was only about €1000. Works for me so far.


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## THW

jaketanner said:


> Nice desk...I am always skeptical as to how sturdy the slide out trays are for heavy 88 key controllers...I have never used one that didn't have some movement...the Z stand is rock solid and it makes playing piano much closer to an acoustic because it doesn't move at all...


Thanks. Maybe I’ll post in the desk thread when the keyboard comes in. I fully expect there to be some movement/flex and will have to adapt to that. We will see how much. I think these kind of desks generally are best suited to lighter keyboards.


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## Snoobydoobydoo

That Zaor Miza Z isnt that expensive and fits for a lot of 88‘s. Sturdy tray.


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## tmhuud

Roland rocks.


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## jaketanner

THW said:


> Thanks. Maybe I’ll post in the desk thread when the keyboard comes in. I fully expect there to be some movement/flex and will have to adapt to that. We will see how much. I think these kind of desks generally are best suited to lighter keyboards.


Even with a lighter keyboard you will have movement if you play a bit hard...But I get the convenience of the drawer.


----------

