# Altiverb vs Lexicon



## gsilbers (Apr 4, 2010)

maybe jumping the gun a little as the lxp hasnt come out yet. 
but for about the same price range ill be choosing between these 2. 

lets ASSsume that the lxp sounds great, then it would be algorithmic vs convolution verb. 
maybe this thread is more about algo vs convo verbs. than the plugin itself. 
im trying to learn more about verb tricks and techniques and whats used the most in film music. (*)

altiverb seems to be the defacto for film scoring. 
many here use one instance of it for predelay/short for sections and then another instance for 
the tail of the orch (or section) . 

would it be better to add an algo verb for the tail only? 

so anyone side for the algorithmic verbs or altiverb still better (for film music) ?


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## bryla (Apr 4, 2010)

film scoring aye?

I doubt they use Altiverb at Sony or other scoring stage. Those who make the big movies I bet use algo.

Those who try to emulate these scoring stages and use virtual instruments I think there's a tendency towards Altiverb.


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## gsilbers (Apr 4, 2010)

interesting point. 

because the orch are moslty samples then using altiverb which uses a more "real" approach 
will give it more life. 


the reverb is such an important part of the overall sound.


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## Frederick Russ (Apr 4, 2010)

*Re: Altiverb vs Lexicom*

There is a closer comparison when comparing Lexicon with Altiverb when the latter has a decent convolution impulse response library to work with. Many of the IR libraries available unfortunately bring a lot of mud into the mix - a nearly universal boost in 250Hz which is a fine frequency until you have too much of it.

One advantage (imo) that Lexicon and the algorithmic reverbs have in general over their convolution engine counterparts is the lack of Q they're adding to the mix as a result of being activated. One way to circumvent some of the effects of excess Q in IRs for Altiverb would be to sample pink noise as a target source in Logic's Match EQ and adjust the percentage of applicable matching EQ by ear. The Match EQ algorithm nearly always detects the boost in some of the muddier frequencies and compensates for it by reducing them for a flatter response. The end result when done properly is to achieve the same room size, same tails but no added Q. At least that is the goal.

Here is an example of pink noise to work with:

http://www.burninwave.com/#pinknoise

....and here is a good convolution library to work with:

http://www.rhythminmind.net/presetblog/2009/06/667/

Peter Roos also has nice IR libraries - specifically those of some of the hardware titles at www.samplicity.com/

Its probably not entirely possible to derive all the benefits of algorithmic reverbs using convolution engines. Tails specifically can prove problematic to sample. You can get somewhere near the ball park though with work. Or simply get yourself an algorithmic reverb and be done with it


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## gsilbers (Apr 4, 2010)

cool. i have some of those , they are good. 
and yes, im thinking having the tail algorithmic is a good idea. but still that means buying both verbs :( 
maybe the aether instead of lexicom. 
maybe lexicom could sell those lxp apart so i just get the hall algo instead of all 4.


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## bryla (Apr 4, 2010)

btw thought it was a typo, but you keep misspelling Lexicon


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## gsilbers (Apr 4, 2010)

oops.. thx.


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## synergy543 (Apr 21, 2010)

No it doesn't, due to the lack of modulation. It sure would make sense for Audioease to add modulation to Aliverb though.

Also, here is a VERY interesting comparison between the Lexicon PCM Native and PCM90 Hardware. If you listen carefully, you'll hear the looping in the PCM Native examples compared to the PCM90. This is rather disappointing to me, still, the PCM Native has nice depth and spread.

http://www.rhythminmind.net/presetblog/2010/03/pcm-90-vs-pcm-native/ (http://www.rhythminmind.net/presetblog/ ... cm-native/)

I was going to put my Lexicon PCM91 up for sale but looks like I'll be pulling it out of storage instead and putting it back to work.


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## Ashermusic (Apr 21, 2010)

synergy543 @ Wed Apr 21 said:


> No it doesn't, due to the lack of modulation. It sure would make sense for Audioease to add modulation to Aliverb though.
> 
> Also, here is a VERY interesting comparison between the Lexicon PCM Native and PCM90 Hardware. If you listen carefully, you'll hear the looping in the PCM Native examples compared to the PCM90. This is rather disappointing to me, still, the PCM Native has nice depth and spread.
> 
> ...



The next version of Altiverb will have an algorithmic reverb that you can mix in.


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## Frederick Russ (Apr 21, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Wed Apr 21 said:


> The next version of Altiverb will have an algorithmic reverb that you can mix in.



Basically that's the system Wizoo W2/W5 used before they became extinct. Its too bad Digidesign never developed it when they acquired the company.


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## gsilbers (Apr 21, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Wed Apr 21 said:


> synergy543 @ Wed Apr 21 said:
> 
> 
> > No it doesn't, due to the lack of modulation. It sure would make sense for Audioease to add modulation to Aliverb though.
> ...



true!

i thought it was called sizzle :wink: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAdUOhm0 ... r_embedded



btw, coming in may supposedly


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## synergy543 (Apr 21, 2010)

gsilbers @ Wed Apr 21 said:


> i thought it was called sizzle :wink:


Well, shizzle ma nizzle,... if it ain't da good sizzle. =o

I'll be that "sizzle" 'n the "dark side" 'll cost about $169!


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## chimuelo (Apr 22, 2010)

Static reverbs are fine and sound as good as some hardware these days.
It's how you use the effect that counts.
My PCM91 was huge let down becasue the sound quality decreased and the MIDI control of parameters revealed zippers when Modulating the decay.
No biggie. I stuck it in my live rig and use the AES/EBU with the XITE-1.
I have great sounding DSP plugs and Native ones and none of those can Modulate in realtime.
You need a 480/960L, 3000 or a PCM70. Model 7's and Yardsticks are capable of this probably too.
The 91 allows the tails to be modulated for chorusing by using the LFO's but don't touch any other parameter or you'll get zippers.
Just think how boring electronic synth music would be if modulating the Filters Cutoff had zippers...??^&^
Imagine this in your virtual mock up.
The 1st Violinist starts playing a solo phrase where his velocity level is twice the level of the section.
Now through velocity have the decay amount increased, which gives you a longer tail with more depth.
Said Violinist then returns to the section and the same parameters are reset to the velocity at a lower level.
This makes the instrument breathe instead of having some static Cavern or Cathedral preset.
Anyone who wants to add this dynamic capability to a mix should buy a PCM70...they are 400-500 USD on ebay and built to last for decades.
Don't like the Analog I/O..?
Try a PCM90, I am not sure if it is capable. Lexicon changed their hardware around after the Digitech takeover, hence the 91's cheaper design.
I am waiting for a developer who is working on a DSP reverb where all parameters will be zipper free.
Afterall a Model 7 uses the same ADSP21369 chips that I have.
But I have 18 of those beasts each with 64MB's of RAM attached to it.
I could actually turn my XITE-1 into a reverb machine...
Imagine 8 Model 7's......
Funny thing..This plug will cost Scope users about 5-600 bucks.
But I am frothing as I wait.
There's really not that much differnce in the sound of these Native and DSP plugs IMHO.
Aether sounds great if you just need something for strings or even percussion.
But just twist the knobs once and listen to those destructive zippers.........this is why they use hardware on the big jobs.


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## chimuelo (Apr 22, 2010)

I hear a big differnece in the above metioned.
But not from the DSP PCM Emulation I use.
I should have phrased a little better.
The point is that there are some plugs in Native that sound pretty close now days to a mid range quality hardware unit.
IMHO it's on the developer and thier experience with coding.
For example the M7 is the most realistic hardware model for creating real space. Lexicon has an entirely different and musical approach. But both of these hardware models use DSP chips. So if I can tweak the parameters of certain hardware units w/o hearing zippers this should apply to the DSP models I use.
Well everything except the Decay/Room Size.
Could you check and see if your Decay parameter on the V77 has artifacts when using in realtime. I would be deeply appreciative.
I really need a quality hardware model or DSP model that can do this and a used V77 is only 800 bucks. If it can move the Decay/Room Size w/o artifacts I will owe you a big favor for reminding me of this unit.
I love my PCM70 still but the lack of AES/EBU or SP/DIF make it difficult to use in my current set ups.
I had forgotten all about the V77.
There are FOH engineers that drag those to the gig and use the provided SHoCo 480L's for more static chores like drums, etc.
If you get the time that would really be appreciated as the model on ebay won't last long and I can't wait any longer for the XITE-1 DSP 96k/64bit version. 

www.sonictimeworks.com

These guys have an excellent Lexicon emulation w/ MIDI controls for Modulation of every parameter except the Decay/Room Size. That requires RAM just like the Model 7 and I assume the Sony DPS V77 has.
I won't be disappointed if the V77 cannot do this, most units these days can't. But since the V77 was made back when quality counted I pray it does.
It will save me a couple large too.


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## synergy543 (Apr 23, 2010)

chimuelo @ Thu Apr 22 said:


> Could you check and see if your Decay parameter on the V77 has artifacts when using in realtime. I would be deeply appreciative.
> I really need a quality hardware model or DSP model that can do this and a used V77 is only 800 bucks. If it can move the Decay/Room Size w/o artifacts I will owe you a big favor for reminding me of this unit....
> I won't be disappointed if the V77 cannot do this, most units these days can't. But since the V77 was made back when quality counted I pray it does.
> It will save me a couple large too.


I did all of the Sony DPS Series CD Demos and most of the preset programs for the Sony DPS Series. You will get some artifacts when you switch decay/room/size but they are very muted. Still, I wouldn't switch with sound active but this is true for Lexion 224XL I had as well. All of the Sony DPS Demos I did were mixed entirely through DPS Boxes with no other effects. Although in some cases, I had several FX units so I could do fully automated mixes. I was careful to move volume levels and switch patches when no audio signal was active so there were no artifacts in any of the CD mixes I did. Here is the intro to the Sony DPS-D7 done in 1989 with no reverb - all apparent reverb comes only from delays (although there were 76 stereo delay taps!).

http://home.comcast.net/~synergy543/SonyDPSD7_Intro.mp3 (Sony DPS-D7 Intro)

The DPS-V77 uses a 20-bit D/A and has a S/PDIF out.


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## germancomponist (Apr 23, 2010)

synergy543 @ Thu Apr 22 said:


> No it doesn't, due to the lack of modulation. It sure would make sense for Audioease to add modulation to Aliverb though.
> 
> Also, here is a VERY interesting comparison between the Lexicon PCM Native and PCM90 Hardware. If you listen carefully, you'll hear the looping in the PCM Native examples compared to the PCM90. This is rather disappointing to me, still, the PCM Native has nice depth and spread.
> 
> ...



Hm, is it sure that both are using the same settings / patches from the 7 different plugs? What I hear are much louder ER`s on the native things.


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## chimuelo (Apr 23, 2010)

Short and Sweet..Nice.
I am going for the V77 on ebay.
I haven't spent a dime on software for over a year now, it's been all hardware.
LASS Lite will change that though.
The V77 being somewhat muted will work for live though.
I would just figure out the proper amounts and make sure their values are entered where there is silence. I will use the MIDI Solutions F8 and a footswitch for this. Just assign the 2 values on a toggle switch. Too bad though as it is really dynamic when the values ascend and descend slowly while being applied.
I really need that DSP 8 CHannel verb damn it.
Love my XITE-1 but they are a small company and updates are slow for certain things. At least they answer the phone and listen.

Thanks Synergy.........


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## synergy543 (Apr 23, 2010)

chimuelo @ Fri Apr 23 said:


> Short and Sweet..Nice.
> I am going for the V77 on ebay....
> Thanks Synergy.........


Thanks. That was the DPS-D7 though - V77 has a simpler delay although more well-rounded multi-functions.

The Sony DPS-V77 has a great UI for programming - its very easy to use and MIDI implementation is great.

@Germancomponist - The algorithms are different so the programs and settings can't be the same. The PCM Native uses Lexicon PCM96 vs PCM90 in the comparisons. They were done for sonic comparison only I believe.


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## dylandog (Apr 23, 2010)

*New LXP Videos available*

Lexicon is proud to start showing off the LXP.
We have entered into our full beta test and will start shipping in 3 weeks!
New product videos can be found on our youtube channel.

http://www.youtube.com/user/LexiconPro

Audio clips will come on monday...check back soon! o-[][]-o


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