# Moderation



## noiseboyuk (Dec 12, 2010)

It's sad to see a potentially interesting thread I started wind up the way "News from EWQL Towers" did. What do people think about the moderation here? I am usually very grateful that VI control has a light touch, I don't want to see this place with banned posts for expressing an opinion. But some of the rudeness on that thread is OTT, and if a couple of the worst offenders were banned I'd be quite happy. At least a final warning perhaps?


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## Ashermusic (Dec 13, 2010)

Personally, I am glad to see the moderators doing a little more moderating lately.

Liberty is not license.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 13, 2010)

I'd like to request that if you flag a post, please send a PM to the moderators articulating what the problems are.

Last night I received one just before closing up for the night, looked at the thread and thought it all sucked, and figured fuget until this morning to deal with it. Fortunately someone else apparently did.


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## lux (Dec 13, 2010)

i think its time we start to deal with it.

Ok, a few people become unfriendly at times. I've happened to be unfriendly when upset and i've seen most of members here incurr in some rudeness more or less at least once in their virtual lives.

Fact is that a musicians community is done mostly by oversensitive farts, which is really what we are. Lets deal with it. We cant complain every couple of threads about moderation. There is a discussion, it could be heated. Different languages are spoken, so its likely to be a few misunderstandings. Lets deal with it.

Also i think all developers here and somewhere else, with the exception of a very few names like Eric Persing, Urs from u-he, WilliamK from Wusik and some others, happen to have over reactions, rude or unfriendly moments. So i tend to see them as humans, and not some species to care about before they disappear. Running in defense of devs every time a bit of an heated discussion starts here is imho a bit out of place as most of devs are members in first instance, they have tastes and often a very limited patience. They have tired days where they respond like crap to questions, and brilliant and shining supportive days. In a few words theyre human like everyone else here.

So i say, lets keep discussions go. Lets not try to moderate everything in gestures, qualities of words. Lets just keep an eye on badmouthing and too much personal flames, other than spam, piracy and whatever comes.

But lets deal with it. Really.

Luca


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 13, 2010)

What I want to know is what were the cows doing in the barn with the horses?


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## synergy543 (Dec 13, 2010)

Luca, there's nothing to deal with as long as anonymous characters (with only a few posts) are allowed to sign up, troll through the forums, and rape a few threads. Happens over and over and sadly it will keep the discouse of this forum from ever elevating beyond a certain level.

@Nick - Just don't drink the milk for a few days.


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## lux (Dec 13, 2010)

Greg in all honesty i feel that the line between trolling and just "disagreeing" is becoming very thin on this board. Btw, you know we had similar feelings in the past, and i have good exteem of you, but i feel i'm disagreeing recently. No big deal of course, opinions are opinions 

i would point out that i believe devs contributed a bit to the actual scenario with those "the world is so rude with developers" crying contests every time an heated discussion rises towards their own products. Its like a national sport here.

As said, if you look at Eric Persons threads you never see trouble. Most likely because he's a class act. And, on the boards, he meets trolls, elfs, goblins and all the species of monsters known to people.


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## synergy543 (Dec 13, 2010)

lux @ Mon Dec 13 said:


> Greg in all honesty i feel that the line between trolling and just "disagreeing" is becoming very thin on this board. Btw, you know we had similar feelings in the past, and i have good exteem of you, but i feel i'm disagreeing recently. No big deal of course, opinions are opinions


Exactly. We can disagree and still respect each other. That's the way it should be. And that's because we have a history too. When someone like "Standalone" comes blasting through with 4 posts to his name, nobody knows who he is. He can spew his vitriol all over the forum, drop a few stink bombs, and then disappear. This is the anonymous internet culture. Whereas, you and I might disagree, even exchange a few barbs or heated words, but in the end, there's still a sense of respect for the other person. This is a big difference in my opinion. Do you really disagree? Do you feel its important to support the internet culture of anonymous attacks?

Don't get me wrong. I'm the last person that likes heavy moderation and unnecessary rules. However, to have a world with freedom also requires respect and a certain amount of trust. When that breaks down, we are no longer are really free.


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## lux (Dec 13, 2010)

I understand your feelings. 

Difference in my vision is that i feel part of it pertains to the approach some of the presumed "victims" have. 

If I start cryin' like a baby once i get a couple polemical responses, that will probably flame up much more than a point on point reply from me to the other guy. As lot of people will chime in to defend against something which isnt really an offence. And that will flame up again.

Thats why i talk about dealing with it. If you just ignore rude people, or reply with some humour (like it happens on kvr) you're likely to have things calming down probably.


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## Mike Greene (Dec 13, 2010)

synergy543 @ Mon Dec 13 said:


> When someone like "Standalone" comes blasting through with 4 posts to his name, nobody knows who he is. He can spew his vitriol all over the forum, drop a few stink bombs, and then disappear. This is the anonymous internet culture.


In fairness, "Standalone" is his posting name on KVR, which he was (in my opinion rightfully) defending. It's not like he just swooped in, made up a name and started dropping bombs. He may or may not be overly sensitive, but after re-reading his posts, I honestly don't see anything particularly objectionable in what he wrote.


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## Mike Greene (Dec 13, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Dec 13 said:


> What I want to know is what were the cows doing in the barn with the horses?


I already have one warning. I'm not risking a second one!

:mrgreen:


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## kid-surf (Dec 13, 2010)

Three things...

1) I want my warning. I earned it...geez!

2) Booboo should be banned. And then brought back. And then banned one last time. By banned I mean not allow him to ever play in anymore bands that play West Hollywood as a rule unless he wears his Beethoven wig.

3) Yowza!


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## lux (Dec 13, 2010)

Mike Greene @ Mon Dec 13 said:


> synergy543 @ Mon Dec 13 said:
> 
> 
> > When someone like "Standalone" comes blasting through with 4 posts to his name, nobody knows who he is. He can spew his vitriol all over the forum, drop a few stink bombs, and then disappear. This is the anonymous internet culture.
> ...



i second that, had the same impression as Mike. Thats what i say when i talk about crying for no reason flames up threads.


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 13, 2010)

Yes, Standalone had some valid points (though to conflate Nick's argument to the point where ALL kvr members are thieves was ludicrous). The point though is not about expressing those views. It is the rudeness and personal vitriol that's out of order IMHO.

Nick is obviously very thin-skinned, and that's just a shame. Nothing any of us can do about that. He came back to this forum with good humour and grace, saying he wouldn't rise to this sort of thing but did. VI Control can't be a place where devs are protected from all negative criticism. But is it unreasonable to demand a basic level of civility while doing so?


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## wqaxsz (Dec 14, 2010)

Mike Greene @ Mon Dec 13 said:


> So given that ugliness has already transpired, it seems to me that it's best to let those involved finish their venting so at least they can get it out of their system and believe they were heard. It won't necessarily be pretty, but like I said, no one looking for beauty reads beyond page 3 of any thread anyway. As it is now, I guarantee a few of these guys are feeling that they were cut off and are now just laying in wait for the next opportunity to finally say their piece.



o=< This is brilliant. 
I am happy to see someone able to understand how nature works 
and capable of transposing it to a specific case.
Good day to you Mike.

Best regards.

Laurent


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## midphase (Dec 14, 2010)

lux @ Mon Dec 13 said:


> Greg in all honesty i feel that the line between trolling and just "disagreeing" is becoming very thin on this board. Btw, you know we had similar feelings in the past, and i have good exteem of you, but i feel i'm disagreeing recently. No big deal of course, opinions are opinions
> 
> i would point out that i believe devs contributed a bit to the actual scenario with those "the world is so rude with developers" crying contests every time an heated discussion rises towards their own products. Its like a national sport here.



I completely and totally agree with Luca...it seems like any disagreement is many times interpreted as some disrespectful action. And people get so sensitive, many times due to not being able to read the "tone" of a certain post.

Also, I think that developers need to realize a few things:

1. Yes you have slaved over a year to create a sample library, but to most of us it's just a "tool" to add to our production palette, it's not our baby. Please realize that we are not bound to feel the same emotional connection to your product as you do, just as much as we can't expect the emotional connection that we feel to our own music to be automatically transferred to the people we work for.

2. With the good come the bad. You can't bask in the glory, and then get all uppity about some criticism. Your product is not perfect...deal with it (and enjoy the kudos that generally outnumbers the negative posts).

3. People work differently, realize that what might not be an issue at all for you, could be a huge issue for me. Don't try to sweep my issues under the rug because you don't feel they're important enough.

4. Realize that software is buggy by nature. An admission of possible fault will go a long way towards getting your end users to side with you and try to help you fix the problem rather than a complete denial that there's anything wrong with your software and the fault must be on our end.

5. If you feel that you have been unjustly targeted, feel free to defend your product...but please do it with courtesy and respect (even if the person making the accusation isn't reciprocating your manners). Understand that the tenet "The customer is always right" still rules in commerce. If we snapped back each and every time a director or producer has some idiotic criticism towards our music, we'd never work in this town again.


Thank you all, and please let's keep the forum a free and open community where we can both agree and disagree without fear of repercussions.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 14, 2010)

+1 to midphase


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## Animus (Dec 14, 2010)

midphase @ Tue Dec 14 said:


> lux @ Mon Dec 13 said:
> 
> 
> > Greg in all honesty i feel that the line between trolling and just "disagreeing" is becoming very thin on this board. Btw, you know we had similar feelings in the past, and i have good exteem of you, but i feel i'm disagreeing recently. No big deal of course, opinions are opinions
> ...



Very well said!


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## rabiang (Dec 14, 2010)

Put it on a yellow sticker on top of the page, vn!


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 14, 2010)

All good points, Kays... but still a gaping hole for me. What to do on the part of the forum member who is personally rude to a dev, as opposed to giving honest / constructive criticism? Let it slide? That's the crunch issue for me. There's a big difference to me between a dev who can't take honest criticism, and one who walks cos he was personally insulted.


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## Mike Connelly (Dec 15, 2010)

Great points, Kays. I think it just comes down to making a reasonable effort to keep customers happy - make the product as good as you can, take responsibility for problems and try to get them fixed as fast as you can. And keep communications with the public honest and civil. Really that's just basic common sense for anyone selling _any_ product.

I think all the doom and gloom about VI is way overstated, this forum is about as civil as any I've seen. If someone is doing blatant trolling, shut them down, but a forum is only going to be useful if there's honest discussion instead of just a bunch of yes men.



noiseboyuk @ Wed Dec 15 said:


> There's a big difference to me between a dev who can't take honest criticism, and one who walks cos he was personally insulted.



True, but I don't think there's necessarily going to be agreement on whether a particular incident is the latter or the former.

While I'm not condoning rude behaviour, I think that devs sometimes set the tone as well. Just like any other topic of conversation, rude comments are going to tend to be more likely to produce rude responses.

And one other thing - I think sometimes people obsess about anonymity and how many posts someone has. Someone can make a valid point on their first post, and someone can make an idiotic trolling one on their thousandth, and anyone with common sense should be able to tell the difference.


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## Ashermusic (Dec 15, 2010)

Rudeness is like porn. It is hard sometimes to define but we all know it when we see it and we certainly saw it in this thread. 

A simple note to the offender from a moderator saying, "hey buddy, that was out of line. Please cool it" would probably put an end to it 90% of the time with 90% of the members. 

Moderators should moderate but err....moderately.

And developers need to be held accountable as well. It is one thing to be proud of your product but rude to promote by dissing competitors either explicitly or implicitly.


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## Mike Greene (Dec 15, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Tue Dec 14 said:


> All good points, Kays... but still a gaping hole for me. What to do on the part of the forum member who is personally rude to a dev, as opposed to giving honest / constructive criticism? Let it slide? That's the crunch issue for me. There's a big difference to me between a dev who can't take honest criticism, and one who walks cos he was personally insulted.


I think it's worth pointing out that the developer in question here has been known to dish out his share as well. "Northern Enclosure" pulled nooooo punches with direct insults of individual people. Don't get me wrong, I thought it was hysterical and I loved it. One of the funniest things I ever read. But I bring it up because it's not like Nick hasn't voluntarily decided to "play with the big boys" before. If you can dish it out, you have to be willing to take it as well.

But if you want something more direct, a few years ago, Nick was pissed off with me for one reason or another. (I tend to speak my mind, so that does happen occasionally. :mrgreen: ) In the course of conversation, Nick questioned my credentials, implying I didn't know enough about ethnic styles of music for my opinions to carry much weight. He asked for my credits. I posted them. His response, which I remember word for word:

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## Mike Greene (Dec 15, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Wed Dec 15 said:


> OK, I am done


I seriously doubt it.

:mrgreen:


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## JohnG (Dec 15, 2010)

At some points, this thread veers from a discussion about courtesy into the wilds of "you can't censor me -- it's my opinion." The impetus of "moderation" is not censorship, but politeness.

Everyone's zeroed in on Nick, but actually there was recently a pretty healthy dose of scathing, righteous indignation directed against Troels when he said nobody had yet sampled taikos properly. I thought some posts spilled over into nastiness.

You would have thought he'd called John Williams a hack.

Of course it was a bit careless of him to write that, but it's his opinion. Why is it that people on this thread are defending their Opinions as sacrosanct but, when it's the opinion of a developer, opinion is not sacrosanct after all? Troels was really jumped on, hard, in a harsh, sanctimonious way that I thought lacked any sense of proportion or recognition of what a fine musician and developer he is himself.

On the merits of his opinion, I realise we can differ; some people think what he wrote was really awful. Honestly I disagree. I think it's self-evident that developers will have opinions about ways to make better libraries. Otherwise, why make a new one?

But even if you disagree with me on whether Troels should be allowed to voice such an opinion, how about a little sense of humour or a gentler tone? How about recognising that Troels has provided many of us with wonderful sounds for our music? How about recalling that some of his demos are a lot better than some compositions submitted here for review?

Just because it's a developer speaking -- whether it's Nick or Troels or anyone -- doesn't mean we drop our opinions, but there are many ways to convey disagreement that don't flame the person and set up a win-or-lose dialogue. There's chiding someone for exaggerating, and there's flaming, and there's attack.

It's a matter of courtesy, not censorship.


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## lux (Dec 15, 2010)

i honestly think its exactly the consideration of the inner quality of the member which makes things out of control. And mostly creates injustices.

I think the standalone guy defended (with good reason) Kvraudio, which is a pretty good place and a lite but effective moderation. He has been almost killed for that. 

If considering the nature of the members, were they developers or what, implies "moderating" people each time they disagree or argue with one of the bosses, then its better to transfer ourselves somewhere else place.

Developers, good artists, bad artists. All are human, do mistakes and need to be addressed (or tolerated with a good smile) not depending on their own list. Your credit list or day job isnt a good reason for being rude. Never. We have a member here which have one of the greater list of all and is also one of the most polite and positive guys i've met on this board.

Luca


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 15, 2010)

Changing the subject yet again: I missed that thread, but I'd be interested to hear what Troels can do. He's right that nobody has sampled taikos "properly."

Nobody has *recorded* taikos properly, and for one simple reason: YOU CAN'T! They're just way bigger than any recording can capture.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 15, 2010)

Actually, I take it back: Rob Arbiter played me a recording of a trailer he did using real taikos, and it sounded pretty huge.

But that's the only one. Anyone who's heard those drums in person knows what I mean - that sound is just very difficult to fit on a recording.


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## Ashermusic (Dec 15, 2010)

JohnG @ Wed Dec 15 said:


> At some points, this thread veers from a discussion about courtesy into the wilds of "you can't censor me -- it's my opinion." The impetus of "moderation" is not censorship, but politeness.
> 
> Everyone's zeroed in on Nick, but actually there was recently a pretty healthy dose of scathing, righteous indignation directed against Troels when he said nobody had yet sampled taikos properly. I thought some posts spilled over into nastiness.
> 
> ...



Well, I was the first one to criticize Troels for his post but I said nothing rude or insulting.

I wrote: "I_ absolutely hate it when a developer makes this kind of statement that is so disrespectful of the hard work of other developers and it makes me very unlikely to ever buy one of his/her products. 

People are of course entitledò  Ô   Òˆµ  Ô   Ò‹t  Ô   Ò‹½  Ô   ÒŒ  Ô   ÒŒ[  Ô   Ò   Ô   Ò L  Ô   Ò¶r  Ô   Ò¶  Ô   Ò¼Š  Ô   Ò½é  Ô   Ò¿Í  Ô   Ò¿ó  Ô   ÒÝØ  Ô   ÒÞ  Ô   ÒÞá  Ô   ÒßS  Ô   Òà"  Ô   Òàr  Ô   ÒâÁ  Ô   Òã%  Ô   Òÿ  Ô   Òÿ@  Ô   Ó ¯  Ô   Ó ñ  Ô   Ó•  Ô   Ó›  Ô   Ó',  Ô   Ó'T  Ô   Ó*x  Ô   Ó_


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## Mike Connelly (Dec 16, 2010)

JohnG @ Wed Dec 15 said:


> Why is it that people on this thread are defending their Opinions as sacrosanct but, when it's the opinion of a developer, opinion is not sacrosanct after all?



The discussion is about how far people should be able to go before having posts deleted or getting blocked, and the line between a forum getting overrun with personal attacks or overmoderated to the point where open debate and opinion is stifled.

Someone posts something, then other someones either agree or disagree. That happens whether either party is a developer or a user. Nobody insisted that Troels should have posts deleted or be banned, did they? Was there anyone that said that he shouldn't be "allowed" to say what he did?


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## JohnG (Dec 16, 2010)

I think it possible that you are misinterpreting what I wrote, Mike. 

Part of the judgment about whether someone has crossed the line depends on the expectations of the reader and I think those expectations differ for developers, thus influencing the reader's conclusion. I am saying that what Nick or Troels wrote would barely raise comment, were they not developers. And conversely, had a developer written some of the comments on which they were the receiving end, the reaction would have been shock and horror.

Luca wrote that this is wrong -- everyone should be viewed exactly equal. While laudable, I find that I am not objective enough to experience different people on the forum that way, once some experience has built up. When Choco writes something, I expect questionable, sometimes hilariously bad taste, but his posts usually are intended to provoke laughter; and so I can't remember taking offense, though maybe I should have or would have, had the person writing been someone else.

So I think inevitably it does matter who's writing, and I don't expect or even want the developers to have to write carefully, like some tribe of politicians. I interpret some of the responses to the developers as implicitly holding them to some kind of pharmaceutical-level objectivity and restraint, which I don't think should be required.

So I don't know if that's clearer.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 16, 2010)

At the end of the day, this forum runs itself with very little moderation. The vast majority of the people here are pretty cool.


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 17, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Dec 16 said:


> At the end of the day, this forum runs itself with very little moderation. The vast majority of the people here are pretty cool.



Yeahbutyeahbut.

I'm sure the vast majority of us would agree that the vast majority are pretty cool. This is about the small minority who aren't. And the status quo has had one major developer leave, and another publicly expresses his unhappiness with the forum, both in the past month. So I'm not sure all is quite that rosy in the VI Garden. The question some of us are asking I guess is... IS this status quo the best VI Control can be, or does it need to be adjusted veeeery slightly?

In truth, I suspect Nick leaving again WAS inevitable at some stage. We all know how strongly moderated Soundsonline is, which is the EWQL comfort zone. I don't think the EWQL Towers thread was constructive at all in places (I was really uncomfortable with all that talk of Ferraris for example... how on Earth is it relevant or polite?), but looking at some threads even constructive criticism is a little tricky for Nick.

Nevertheless, I'm still left with the feeling that basic civility needs to be policed slightly more strongly. Nothing heavy-handed. Dev's contributions to the boards are important, everyone benefits. We shouldn't treat them with holy reverence, but basic politeness is not unreasonable, surely? IMHO it would be nice for the VI Control mods to be able to say to devs "we're aware some things have got a little OTT of late, we'll do our best to keep things civil".


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## JohnG (Dec 17, 2010)

Do you mean rules of conduct?


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## madbulk (Dec 17, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Dec 16 said:


> At the end of the day, this forum runs itself with very little moderation. The vast majority of the people here are pretty cool.



And that is what is known as "that." Don't gild the lily. Or something.


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## madbulk (Dec 17, 2010)

JohnG @ Wed Dec 15 said:


> You would have thought (Troels) called John Williams a hack.


Give it time. He called Mozart a hack once as I recall. (Not here. Don't go hitting search buttons, folks.)


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## Mike Connelly (Dec 17, 2010)

JohnG @ Fri Dec 17 said:


> Do you mean rules of conduct?



Yes, I assume there are some and they show up when you create an account.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 17, 2010)

No insulting people. That's about it, right?

Brian, I'm not gilding the lilly, I'm saying that this board requires very little moderation. Ask Frederick - I'm sure he'll agree.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 18, 2010)

It's official: I forgive you. 

And I'm still flagellating myself for misunderstanding what you meant.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 19, 2010)

[quote:b972f4621b="JohnG @ Wed Dec 15, 2010 1:05 pm"]At some points, this thread veers from a discussion about courtesy into the wilds of "you can't censor me -- it's my opinion." The impetus of "moderation" is not censorsò  à   ·,á  à   ·-/  à   ·1&  à   ·1b  à   ·4(  à   ·4H  à   ·:ß  à   ·;R  à   ·<«  à   ·=Ý  à   ·D™  à   ·E3  à   ·H&  à   ·W(  à   ·Ww  à   ·cö  à   ·d'  à   ·g’  à   ·h  à   ·h`  à   ·hÁ  à   ·nÏ  à   ·o&  à   ·w8  à   ·wÕ  à   ·xõ  à   ·y‡  à   ·Š  à   ·ö  à   ·…8  à   ·…Ü  à   ·‰  à   ·Šƒ  à   ·Œ²  à   ·  à   ·‘×  à   ·’  à   ·žÒ  à   ·žñ  à   · i  à   · ¹  à   ·«>  à   ·¬ª  à   ·±Î  à   ·±ù  à   ·´=  à   ·´y  à   ·¾o  à   ·¾¯  à   ·ÃÚ  à   ·Ã÷  à   ·Ä„  à   ·Ä£  à   ·Æ»  à   ·Ç1  à   ·Êl  à   ·Ë  à   ·ÍÚ  à   ·Íå  à   ·à°  à   ·àÊ  à   ·áC  à   ·á¥  à   ·äª  à   ·è  à   ·ó  à   ·óß  à   ·ö¦  à   ·÷i  à   ·ø`  à   ·øg  à   ·úv  à   ·ú²  à   ¸­  à   ¸à  à   ¸  à   ¸g  à   ¸ª  à   ¸Í  à   ¸ 6  à   ¸ `  à   ¸  à   ¸o  à   ¸Z  à   ¸  à   ¸×  à   ¸  à   ¸  à   ¸U  à   ¸&:  à   ¸&K  à   ¸&Ò  à   ¸&à  à   ¸&ú  à   ¸'X  à   ¸(  à   ¸(9  à   ¸(~  à   ¸(¼  à   ¸6ˆ  à   ¸6¿  à   ¸8w  à   ¸8Ó  à   ¸:  à   ¸:   à   ¸=3  à   ¸=“  à   ¸>–  à   ¸A  à   ¸Aò  à   ¸Lœ  à   ¸LÑ              ò  à   ¸O  à   ¸]  à   ¸]  à   ¸ga  à   ¸h¢  à   Äi  à   Äj4  à   Æ.  à   Æ|  à   Çã¦  à   ÇãÍ  à   ß)  à   ß_  à   àÿ–  à   àÿâ  à   ãî.  à   ãîe  à   ê7  à   ê‹  á    Í  á    Î  á    w=  á    w>  á    w?  á    [email protected]  á    wA  á    wB  á    wC  á    wD  á    wE  á    òL  á    òM  á    òN  á    òO  á   hI  á   hJ  á   €¬  á   €­  á   =W  á   =X  á   =Y  á   =Z  á   =[  á   =\  á   =]  á   =^  á   ½å  á   ½æ  á   ½ç  á   ½è  á   ½é  á   ½ê  á   ;  á   *ã  á   *ä  á   *å  á   *æ  á   ¤›  á   ¤œ  á   ¤  á   ¤ž  á   >  á   ?  á   @  á   ”@  á   ”A  á   ”B  á   ”C  á   ‰  á   ˆà  á   x   á   óÒ  á   óÓ  á   	mf  á   
[¤  á   Ô  á   Jí  á    5c  á    :"  á    °·  á   )\  á   )]  á   )^  á   )_  á   Àò  á   À÷  á   û  á   þ  á   ý  á   	  á   ÑÝ  á   Ñà  á   r  á   {  á     á     á     á     á   —  á   —  á   Æ  á   Æ   á   6þ  á   7  á   RÇ  á   RÓ  á   ÜÂ  á   Üè  á   Á  á   Á?  á   î˜  á   îœ              ò  á   /=  á   ÌÅ  á   ÌÑ  á   åb  á   å}  á   ít  á   íŠ  á   ÈŒ  á   È¢  á   í  á   ð  á   Fk  á   F§  á   …&  á   …,  á   !óR  á   !óp  á   "PÝ  á   "Pñ  á   "Ÿƒ  á   "ŸŠ  á   &ÇÊ  á   &Çß  á   &è  á   &è"  á   )-ù  á   ).  á   *\­  á   *\¼  á   -¦ä  á   -§E  á   -úa  á   -úÛ  á   .{+  á   /z¯  á   /{V  á   0Ž  á   0’  á   00  á   06  á   3;d  á   3;h  á   3H   á   3H
  á   9	8  á   9	;  á   :dž  á   :dÙ  á   :e  á   :e8  á   :n†  á   :n¬  á   :žÄ  á   :Ÿ  á   =4ž  á   =4¿  á   @+U  á   @,  á   @,C  á   @,§  á   @¾0  á   @¾e  á   @¿ì  á   @À  á   Bò  á   B÷  á   D V  á   D [  á   KQ  á   KQ3  á   O¿ø  á   OÀ  á   OÈ0  á   OÈM  á   Z!I  á   Z!¤  á   ZÚA  á   ZÚ`  á   \s.  á   \sW  á   ^”g  á   ^”k  á   c÷Í  á   c÷Ó  á   c÷Ù  á   c÷ä  á   cù-  á   cù2  á   dôÖ  á   dôÚ  á   kF  á   kF  á   uþ  á   uþ(  á   {÷]  á   {÷`  á   |Ý+  á   |Ý.  á   |û]  á   |û„  á   |ý7  á   |ý}  á   	c  á   	f  á    7  á    7  á   ¡‰r  á   ¡‰{  á   ºrç  á   ºs  á   »  á   »              ò  á   ¼9  á   ¼L´  á   ¼LÐ  á   ½Nm  á   ½N¶  á   ¾ w  á   ¾O  á   ¾ÇÖ  á   ¾ÈI  á   ÁEè  á   ÁFZ  á   ÄøÉ  á   Äù”  á   Æ!¹  á   Æ"Y  á   Æ*Ž  á   Æ*ô  á   Æ+Ð  á   Æ,  á   Æ2  á   Æ2O  á   Æ3Y  á   Æ3º  á   ÇŠú  á   Ç‹P  á   È7»  á   È8š  á   È¥T  á   È¦B  á   Ëq  á   ËÅ  á   Í«Â  á   Í¬  á   Õ¾›  á   Õ¿  á   ×ø—  á   ×ùœ  á   ×úÆ  á   ×û×  á   ØIU  á   ØI¬  á   Ø\  á   Ø\c  á   Øb  á   Øb6  á   Øt%  á   Øty  á   Øw‡  á   ØwÛ  á   Øˆk  á   Ø‰1  á   Ú!ç  á   Ú#Ì  á   Ú{Ü  á   Ú|_  á   Ú‚Ò  á   Ú…t  á   Ûî  á   Ûît  á   Þ¢  á   ÞÓ  á   à%¶  á   à&  á   ââš  á   ââÚ  á   ã2·  á   ã3H  á   ã]Ž  á   ã]í  á   ã^h  á   ã_  á   ã¯³  á   ã°   á   å=œ  á   å=Ý  á   æOþ  á   æP$  á   éN  á   éOT  á   ë^  á   ë^z  á   ë`ò  á   ëap  á


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 19, 2010)

Looks like the majority here want it exactly as it is. Larry does make some good points above about the subjectivity of it all. I was only ever questioning a policy nudge rather than anything more drastic, but if the majority are happy, then so am I...


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## NYC Composer (Dec 19, 2010)

Noise, I don't think your point was unreasonable. Things do come to a head at times. I just think it would be a slippery slope to encourage mods to police more, when all that's really necessary is to check one's sensitivities now and then and to ignore some who you find rude.

I would hope that anyone who found me rude or insensitive would have the stones to either say it publicly and call me out or PM me and express it privately. I consider myself open to either or both.


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## Ashermusic (Dec 20, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Sun Dec 19 said:


> Looks like the majority here want it exactly as it is. Larry does make some good points above about the subjectivity of it all. I was only ever questioning a policy nudge rather than anything more drastic, but if the majority are happy, then so am I...



+1 for the policy nudge.


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