# Orchestral Layouts



## Daniel James (Jun 30, 2011)

Hey guys,

Currently working on a few bits and was taking a look at the conventional layout of the orchestrea.

My first question is what are the most common lay outs

My second is why are all the bass instruments panned right (bass, cello tuba) and the higher timbre ones on the left (1st and 2nd violins)...where is the benefit? In todays age with the ability to mix and compress, would it not make more sense to have the bass centered so it can be controlled better in a mix.

Just a few little queries. Hope you guys can shed some light on it for me :D

Dan


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## noiseboyuk (Jul 1, 2011)

Hi Dan, others far more knowledgeable than I will I'm sure chip in on both the history and the variations of layouts. They seem broadly similar to me though with small variations - this graphic looks like a fair example:

http://www.ravel-vs.com/features/hall

I know exactly where you're coming from re it sounding odd. To modern tastes shoving all the low stuff to the right seems very bizarre. It's just convention I guess. And thing is, when I hear a full orchestral mix with everything in its place, of course it sounds absolutely fine... well, I have been listening to that for 40+ years! It's one of those things where I just shrug my shoulders and say "that's the way it goes".

The other thing is that with a nice balance there's lots of ambience and spread.... in other words, you don't hear the close sound of double basses panned hard right. Its more diffuse that than.


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## Daniel James (Jul 1, 2011)

Haha Guy well you know for a fact I am not one to do something just for the sake of convention.

I am thinking of trying a few new set ups and seeing what kind of results I get I just wondered if there was any technical reason for things to be where they are now or if its just because one composer did it like that once and everyone went...ok that will do xD

Dan


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## Pietro (Jul 1, 2011)

It mostly depends on the context. Sometimes you switch violas and basses, which makes sense sometimes - you have basses in the middle, and violas in front of first violins.

I wouldn't call the switched sitting "European". I have only seen it a couple of times. And I used to play in a philharmonic orchestra very often.

What Guy posted is the most common.

- Piotr


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## JJP (Jul 1, 2011)

Daniel James @ Thu Jun 30 said:


> My second is why are all the bass instruments panned right (bass, cello tuba) and the higher timbre ones on the left (1st and 2nd violins)...where is the benefit?


If you're not thinking from a performance point of view, the layout can seem pointless. However, the common orchestra seating arrangements are for the benefit of live performance and balance within the room. Remember the orchestra was around long before recording so it had to balance itself. The common layouts do a quite good job of that. In the recording world the orchestra layout strives to create a good, balanced sound before it even hits the mixing board.

There are a variety of practical and sonic reasons for various layouts that contribute to this balance and tone.

The practical reasons have to do with performance. Instruments that often play together are seated near each other to allow them blend and balance well. For example, it can be difficult for the tuba and contrabasses to hear each other and match tone and articulations if they are on opposite sides of the stage. Thus the low brass is seated on the right along with the Contrabasses. The contrabasses may already be on the right to be close to the cellos with whom they often play in octaves.

For this same reason you have the woodwinds in a block in the center of the orchestra with the principals all sitting next to each other. The first horn is often tucked in close to the woodwinds because in traditional classical writing the horn often supported the woodwinds. (Fun fact: This is also why the horns appear above the trumpets and below the woodwinds in a traditional score layout.)

The sonic reasons deal with acoustics and balancing the whole ensemble. Strings (especially higher strings) are seated in the front so that they don't have to project through the rest of the orchestra to be heard. Likewise the loud, harsh brass is seated towards the rear to give it a more rounded tone and prevent it from overwhelming the other instruments. Horns are often situated without other instruments behind them to allow their tone to freely bounce off the back wall and create the "ringing" horn tone which we all know and love.

There are several opinions on orchestral layout for live musicians. Every layout strives to enable the musicians to create a good sound while easily achieving good ensemble balance. The room, size of ensemble, and the composition will be the main factors in deciding the layout for any performance or recording.


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## Darryl Jackson (Jul 1, 2011)

Thanks for the helpful info, and especially for the attached image, JJP! Interesting stuff.


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## germancomponist (Jul 1, 2011)

JJP @ Fri Jul 01 said:


> The practical reasons have to do with performance. Instruments that often play together are seated near each other to allow them blend and balance well. For example, it can be difficult for the tuba and contrabasses to hear each other and match tone and articulations if they are on opposite sides of the stage. Thus the low brass is seated on the right along with the Contrabasses. The contrabasses may already be on the right to be close to the cellos with whom they often play in octaves.
> 
> For this same reason you have the woodwinds in a block in the center of the orchestra with the principals all sitting next to each other. The first horn is often tucked in close to the woodwinds because in traditional classical writing the horn was often supported the woodwinds. (Fun fact: This is also why the horns appear above the trumpets and below the woodwinds in a traditional score layout.)
> 
> ...



Yes, I also think it is for a better listening to the other players. 

For example: We know that especially the string players listen to the others when it comes to the tuning. When you listen to very fast played notes you can hear that the tuning then isn`t as perfect as it is in longer / slower played notes. So these layouts make sence.

But, when we work with samples, all changes are allowed.


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## JJP (Jul 1, 2011)

Darryl Jackson @ Fri Jul 01 said:


> Thanks for the helpful info, and especially for the attached image, JJP! Interesting stuff.


I have a rare day off today, so I'm happy to help. Sorry for the crude diagrams.

One thing to note in all of the layouts is that the Cb are adjacent to the Vc, Vc are adjacent to the Vla, and the Vla are adjacent to the Vln.

The violins are split in some setups which provides a slightly technical challenge for them, but it is often considered worth the tradeoff for the wide sound. This is especially true for studio situations or situations where vln 1 & 2 are written as separate elements. For situations with odd divisi (by 3, 5, or more) or when there are fewer violins (say 12 total) I often prefer all violins in the same location to create a more homogenous sound.

An argument against splitting the violins in a concert situation is that the vln 2 now have their instruments pointed away from the audience which changes their tone slightly. I've found this to be of no concern in a recording situation. I think that you could also argue that when the 2nds are behind the 1sts, their tone could be slightly dampened anyway. It's a bit of a pedantic argument in most situations.


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## sbkp (Jul 1, 2011)

As a side note, I think the standard of putting low frequency stuff in the middle of a stereo mix was originally based on the mechanics of LP records. Because of how stereo is engraved in vinyl (L+R and L-R, iirc) if you had a loud low frequency thing happen on one side you could actually pop the needle out of the groove. Fun!

So now without that constraint, we have flexibility to do whatever we want. Even in rock bands, the bassist isn't usually in the middle of the stage


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## ozmorphasis (Jul 1, 2011)

Check out 3:25. Even in concert situations, basses have been used in the center quite a bit. (as a side note, this is some of the best conducting the world has ever seen!).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrKN1HZDP1M


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## RiffWraith (Jul 1, 2011)

Typically, when the 1st Vs and 2nd Vs are on stage R (to the L of the cond.), that is considered 'American Seating', whereas when the 1st Vs are on stage R and the 2nd Vs are on stage L, that is considered 'European Seating'. This can be translated into today's film scores. Listen to any score done by The Hollywood Studio Symphony, and the 1st Vs and 2nd Vs are on stage R. 'Aliens v. Predator' comes to mind. Then, listen to a score done by The LSO - 'LOTR' as a good example. Here, the 1st Vs and 2nd Vs are split stage R/L. Of course, this is not always the case (as outlined by the first ex. in the chart below), but is, I think, the case more often than not.

Here is a pretty cool list:

http://www.mti.dmu.ac.uk/~ahugill/manual/seating.html

Cheers.


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## David Story (Jul 1, 2011)

Daniel James @ Thu Jun 30 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> My second is why are all the bass instruments panned right (bass, cello tuba) and the higher timbre ones on the left (1st and 2nd violins)...where is the benefit?



This is a sound design question, and from that point of view, location can be changed at will. Any sound anywhere.

Jason's answers are from a performance viewpoint, how to get a large team together in real time.

Where they overlap is in the final effect of location. That can sound different then how things look on stage. EG, bass is more diffuse and blended.

Also, you can play with panning in electroacoustic orchestral concerts. Boulez was doing that in the 70's.

And there are plenty of scores that ask for unusual seating and instrumentation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGjc5vmln7w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OY5_cwN1 ... re=related

The art of composing evolved in part from the possibilities of live performance. So you benefit from the wisdom of the masters if you place sounds similar to how they intended. And deviate for a clear reason. Eg, a mallet/erhu duet, tuba counterpoint to basses. YMMV 

BTW, this is why recording in sections can feel "artificial". Players not interacting in time and space.


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## skyy38 (Aug 8, 2011)

My favorite:

https://smartsite.ucdavis.edu/access/content/group/59bdf0b4-ad07-473e-8050-fe67d7119d35/Music10/00Images/Instruments/orchestr.gif (https://smartsite.ucdavis.edu/access/co ... chestr.gif)


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## bryla (Aug 8, 2011)

skyy38 @ Mon Aug 08 said:


> My favorite:
> 
> https://smartsite.ucdavis.edu/access/content/group/59bdf0b4-ad07-473e-8050-fe67d7119d35/Music10/00Images/Instruments/orchestr.gif (https://smartsite.ucdavis.edu/access/co ... chestr.gif)


I have never seen an orchestra set up this way....


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## Igor (Jun 9, 2012)

wow, really? never, huh?
I'd say it's pretty close to what I've seen. Though I tend to see the piano & harp on the left, and the Timp on the right. And the rest of the perc tends to be scattered way in the back,... not so localized in the far left.

Part of the setup is about projection. Percussion can be LOUD. Brass is next loudest. Individual string instruments are soft, by themselves. So you can have the perc way in the back, and the balance works.

And as for left-to-right... like others said, it's good for musicians who're playing similar parts to hear one-another, to better blend and stuff.


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## Igor (Jun 9, 2012)

Also, when you're talking about live acoustics, the really low tones tend to spread out across the concert hall... so that whole right-side-really-low thing isn't a problem for audiences.


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## Igor (Jun 9, 2012)

also (my last chime-in), you'll sometimes see the horns in front of the trumpets & trombones. Again, volume projection. The trumpets and bones have bells that face forward. Horns & tuba bells face up and tend to spread. So it's better for the horns to be a bit closer to the audience.


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## Daryl (Jun 10, 2012)

bryla @ Mon Aug 08 said:


> skyy38 @ Mon Aug 08 said:
> 
> 
> > My favorite:
> ...


Strange things happen in small theatre pits, but on the whole I would agree with you. That layout would be pretty much a disaster for concert work. Unless the piece was deliberately written somehow to take advantage of the strange layout. :? 

D


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## bryla (Jun 10, 2012)

Igor @ Sun Jun 10 said:


> also (my last chime-in), you'll sometimes see the horns in front of the trumpets & trombones. Again, volume projection. The trumpets and bones have bells that face forward. Horns & tuba bells face up and tend to spread. So it's better for the horns to be a bit closer to the audience.


I still hold my comment that I've never seen an orchestra set-up like that. Pits - as Daryl says - can make this happen.

Horns project backward and are dependent on back wall reflections to be heard. It wont help anybody that their sound is spat in to the body of the trumpeters.


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## mark812 (Jun 10, 2012)

skyy38 @ Mon Aug 08 said:


> My favorite:
> 
> https://smartsite.ucdavis.edu/access/content/group/59bdf0b4-ad07-473e-8050-fe67d7119d35/Music10/00Images/Instruments/orchestr.gif (https://smartsite.ucdavis.edu/access/co ... chestr.gif)



Hm, strange layout.

I'm used to this one.


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