# Roli is no more. Now called Luminary. (Mod update: - that is how it looked last September, but they're back with a Seabord 2.)



## D Halgren (Sep 2, 2021)

[NB here: sorry to be a heavy-handed moderator and edit the thread title - which I did for obvious reasons.]

It's official.

"Music startup Roli has filed for administration and is reforming as beginner-focused Luminary - The Verge" https://www-theverge-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2021/9/2/22653749/music-startup-roli-administration-reform-luminary-lumi-keys-app?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a6&usqp=mq331AQIKAGwASCAAgM=#amp_tf=From %1$s&aoh=16306254977464&csi=0&referrer=https://www.google.com&ampshare=https://www.theverge.com/2021/9/2/22653749/music-startup-roli-administration-reform-luminary-lumi-keys-app


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## ka00 (Sep 2, 2021)

Even the link died.


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## D Halgren (Sep 2, 2021)

ka00 said:


> Even the link died.


Fixed 🤷‍♂️


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## gsilbers (Sep 2, 2021)

damn I just bought equator2.


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## D Halgren (Sep 2, 2021)

gsilbers said:


> damn I just bought equator2.


I hope someone keeps Cypher 2 going.


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## gsilbers (Sep 2, 2021)

From an old video or something I read a while back, the idea of having a controller on the midi keyboard was something done by them and it only had some pads like stickers on each key and the user would move its finders up and down to change midi cc. They later went on to the squishy keyboard thing with poly midi and those where very expensive. 
or maybe was another company. I hope they can license the midi tech to maudio and others


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## Nico5 (Sep 2, 2021)

not entirely surprising (the disposal of Juce seemed like a big hint at a major pivot) - I'm glad I never ended up getting a squishy keyboard, since the owners of those seem to be pretty much left on their own now, I assume.


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## D Halgren (Sep 2, 2021)

Nico5 said:


> not entirely surprising (the disposal of Juce seemed like a big hint at a major pivot) - I'm glad I never ended up getting a squishy keyboard, since the owners of those seem to be pretty much left on their own now, I assume.


I love mine and it works flawlessly, but who knows...


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## Nico5 (Sep 2, 2021)

D Halgren said:


> I love mine and it works flawlessly, but who knows...


yes, what a cool piece of gear - and I genuinely hope that it will continue to be reliable for you for many years to come!


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## DCPImages (Sep 2, 2021)

Site is still up.


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## rgames (Sep 2, 2021)

D Halgren said:


> It's official.
> 
> "Music startup Roli has filed for administration and is reforming as beginner-focused Luminary - The Verge" https://www-theverge-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2021/9/2/22653749/music-startup-roli-administration-reform-luminary-lumi-keys-app?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a6&usqp=mq331AQIKAGwASCAAgM=#amp_tf=From %1$s&aoh=16306254977464&csi=0&referrer=https://www.google.com&ampshare=https://www.theverge.com/2021/9/2/22653749/music-startup-roli-administration-reform-luminary-lumi-keys-app


Hmm that's too bad. Yeah the tech is pretty cool - I have the 49-key Seaboard Rise but I guess I haven't used it since I got it a couple years ago.

The squishy keyboards might be an example of a product suite that makes financial sense as an addition to some other core product line but not by itself.

I could see a company like Arturia buying the IP associated with the Rise keyboards and integrating it into their synths, both hardware and software. With that core product line behind it the squishy keys might survive and evolve.

rgames


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## Wunderhorn (Sep 2, 2021)

Sad to see something innovative go.

The seaboard was introduced into a limited market for professionals as the article states as well, and I think that combined with the high pricepoint that was probably what ultimately led to trouble. If you have to convince people first of a new technology to choose over something traditional that is proven, you can't make that too expensive. I was eying the technology for a while but I was not willing to shell out the money for something that ultimately felt would be an experiment.


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## D Halgren (Sep 2, 2021)

Looking through the website they are saying that the new company will continue to produce the Seaboard, with a relaunch in 2022. We will see how that goes. I bought a Lumi for my daughter and it connected to her iPad once, and I have been in support hell ever since.


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## DCPImages (Sep 2, 2021)

I love the Equator 2 Synth.


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 2, 2021)

Hey maybe my Roli squishy keyboard will become more valuable now.


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## rnb_2 (Sep 2, 2021)

Sad to see - ROLI was my gateway back into music a few years back (I'd been away for about 20 years). I didn't invest heavily in hardware - I just have a Lightpad Block M (the squishier second version) and a couple control blocks for it, and they seem to still work fine. I also just bought Equator 2, and have had Cypher 2 and Strobe 2 for a long time. Their SWAM soundpacks first clued me in to exactly how far things have come since I last paid attention to the music industry, but those sounds were (understandably) constrained to just iPhone/iPad, and just ROLI's software, at that, so I never got much use out of them.

My ROLI hardware didn't get as much use after I discovered VI-C and started to understand how more mainstream samplers work with MIDI to get some of the expressiveness of MPE, but I do wish that MPE had taken off in a bigger way and become another option for some of the major samplers. This might have helped ROLI become more of a major player, but it just didn't happen.


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## Christian Thon (Sep 2, 2021)

That's sad news... I really like their products, and spent nearly $1K on the Blocks system last year. Crossing my fingers hoping it'll work for a few years atleast.


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## Alchemedia (Sep 2, 2021)

All your base are belong to Francisco Partners.


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## givemenoughrope (Sep 2, 2021)

Hmm, I just set up a bunch of libraries and synths to work with my Roli. Not sure I want to get overly attached to a product that wont be available. What are some MPE alternatives? Keith McMillen?


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## timprebble (Sep 2, 2021)

Wunderhorn said:


> Sad to see something innovative go.
> 
> that was probably what ultimately led to trouble.



Quoting from here:

“Ultimately what happened was the pro-focused products we initially developed, although successful within their marketplace, the marketplace wasn’t big enough given our *venture trajectory*,” Lamb told Insider. *“We had our eyes set on hypergrowth and that proved to be difficult.”*


My emphasis, but this seems endemic to start up venture-capital based business. They (Roli) were not aiming to be sustainable, they were aiming for 'hypergrowth' and when they didn't achieve it, it was game over. All the users I know really liked their products, so it wasn't a failure of products and it goes beyond aspirations. Their business model clearly was dependent on it! Such a shame, perhaps aiming for sustainability might have been better than 'boom or bust'?


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## el-bo (Sep 2, 2021)

This is really bad news for me, personally. 

My Rise 49 started having issues at the beginning of the year. I did have a bit of a back-and-forth with support, with me uploading audio examples and them sending various firmware fixes, but nothing worked. I started to realise that it was something that would likely necessitate a complete replacement of the silicon key-bed which is something I couldn't (still can't) afford. 

Not only is it the best instrument I've ever owned (That includes being the best drum-controller I've ever used), but it's the most beautiful thing I've ever owned. For most, these 'boards were a gimmick. For me, they were a revelation. So sad right now (and that includes for Roli too).


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## Crowe (Sep 2, 2021)

Oh damn. I'd been thinking about buying into the ecosystem if I ever started seeing a return on my musical investments. It looked fantastic but I considered too rich for my hobbyist ass.

I reckon that's part of what did them in.




timprebble said:


> Quoting from here:
> 
> “Ultimately what happened was the pro-focused products we initially developed, although successful within their marketplace, the marketplace wasn’t big enough given our *venture trajectory*,” Lamb told Insider. *“We had our eyes set on hypergrowth and that proved to be difficult.”*


I have no words for how much I hate this. They did it to themselves then.


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## el-bo (Sep 3, 2021)

Crowe said:


> Oh damn. I'd been thinking about buying into the ecosystem if I ever started seeing a return on my musical investments. It looked fantastic but I considered too rich for my hobbyist ass.
> 
> I reckon that's part of what did them in.
> 
> ...


Actually, I think they'd have had a much bigger potential market with the 'Rise' line if it wasn't so over-engineered. As beautiful a statement as I think it makes (It's heft and weight for auch a low-profile 'board is surprising), I reckon they could've shaved off a few hundred by making the casing/housing from plastic. At $649 for example, I reckon the Rise 49 would've flown off the shelves


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## doctoremmet (Sep 3, 2021)

Bummed. Hope their synths -which are fantastic- find a good new home soon.


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## gamma-ut (Sep 3, 2021)

el-bo said:


> Actually, I think they'd have had a much bigger potential market with the 'Rise' line if it wasn't so over-engineered. As beautiful a statement as I think it makes (It's heft and weight for auch a low-profile 'board is surprising), I reckon they could've shaved off a few hundred by making the casing/housing from plastic. At $649 for example, I reckon the Rise 49 would've flown off the shelves


I think it would still need a fair amount of metal or a lot of thick plastic. On an X-frame stand, something as thin as a 49 would probably flex quite a bit in a plastic case, though you'd get away with it on a 25. You don't want all that flexing with the pressure sensors inside, especially when the reliability of those seems to be the weak spot from my experience (having exchanged two different types of Seaboard in the past because one or more sensors didn't work right after delivery). There's a lot of metal in the average keybed. You just don't notice it because it's generally underneath all the keys.

A lot of the cost of the Rise (and the Block keyboard) would just be in the upfront development coupled with the fact that it's a niche instrument. You could nickel and dime it but as reliability was and is their Achilles heel, you're probably shovelling a lot of cost into handling even more returns.


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## el-bo (Sep 3, 2021)

gamma-ut said:


> I think it would still need a fair amount of metal or a lot of thick plastic. On an X-frame stand, something as thin as a 49 would probably flex quite a bit in a plastic case, though you'd get away with it on a 25. You don't want all that flexing with the pressure sensors inside, especially when the reliability of those seems to be the weak spot from my experience (having exchanged two different types of Seaboard in the past because one or more sensors didn't work right after delivery). There's a lot of metal in the average keybed. You just don't notice it because it's generally underneath all the keys.
> 
> A lot of the cost of the Rise (and the Block keyboard) would just be in the upfront development coupled with the fact that it's a niche instrument. You could nickel and dime it but as reliability was and is their Achilles heel, you're probably shovelling a lot of cost into handling even more returns.


Makes sense. Although they might’ve been able to get away with reinforcing specific areas, no?

Either way, it is what it is.

The design and construction as it is, at least for me, elevated it from a quirky keyboard controller to a work of art.

I really hope this isn’t the end of the story


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## charlieclouser (Sep 3, 2021)

givemenoughrope said:


> Hmm, I just set up a bunch of libraries and synths to work with my Roli. Not sure I want to get overly attached to a product that wont be available. What are some MPE alternatives? Keith McMillen?


The Keith McMillen K-Board Pro4 is pretty great. The keys are still grippy rubbery - I'd prefer them to be a bit more slippery for easier front <> back motion - but it does work very well. Note that the keys don't actually move, except for squishing a bit when you press for poly-aftertouch. The color scheme is heinous, but it's a solid bit of kit, and McMillen doesn't seem to be up against some massive VC buy-in they need to pay back, so they'll probably be around for a while. I don't have a K-Board Pro4 but I have one of their first mini K-Boards and the grippy rubber coating on the casing (not on the keys) is starting to do that outgassing thing where it gets slimy / sticky. So that's not good. But it is version 1.0 of their products, and I don't know if the current stuff uses the same coating on the cases.

Of course there's the Linnstrument, but that's a grid-type / guitar fretboard type thing. But it is amazing and works very very well. Plus it's Roger Linn, so.... bow down to the master. I have one and no issues in 5+ years.

Then there's the Haken Continuum series. I have one of the gigantic ones, and it is a marvel of design and technology - but it has about a zillion moving parts underneath the neoprene surface: a grid of wires that are deflected by finger pressure. So while it is a sturdy and heavy brick of metal I wonder about the mechanical stability long-term. They now have "Slim Continuum" models which have a much more gracefully thin case and a slightly better UI. It really is the king of MPE controllers with a price to match. But the real power of the Continuums is the very powerful DSP synth engine on-board, and its ability to do insane things like take a monophonic audio input, and output a polyphonically pitch-shifted output controlled by MPE. This is a marvel - while you can't import samples into the thing, you can feed in an audio track of a looped string sustain, play the surface, and output a polyphonic performance from that single audio input. It's nuts, but that particular feature is more of a wild sound design tool than a way to do realistic violin parts or whatever. Of course you can use it to control a sampler via MPE and for this it's amazing, but the playing surface is completely smooth with only silkscreened lines to act as a visual guide. So it might be leaning more towards the virtuoso experimental musician than the composer-on-a-deadline who needs to do realistic cello solos. But it is awesome and is a true ten-finger X + Y + Z controller, perhaps the only one that is truly like that.

Then there's the Osmose from Expressive-e - if it ever comes out. I've got one on pre-order and periodically I forget that I've already paid for the thing like two years ago, and then an email comes from them telling me it will be ready real soon now, promise! But it's a "normal" keyboard with side-to-side wiggling for pitch vibrato as well as poly-pressure, but no front-to-back sensing. However, since it's a normal keyboard layout it's not some space-age alien mystery device like the Linnstrument and Continuum. It has a very powerful DSP engine inside which is basically the same as what's inside the Continuum and will use the same editor I believe, but with more on-board controls to call up patches and make knobby tweaks. Check the videos on their site and prepare to get out your credit card:









osmose


Discover an amazing new musical instrument: one that pushes the very limits of keyboard expression. Prepare to dissolve the boundaries between you and music. Prepare to express yourself like never before.




www.expressivee.com





I will say that their Touche controller with their modeled string instrument plugins is a revelation, with very convincing bowing controls, similar to what that guy does with the iPad Pro + Pencil + SWAM plugins. Same idea with the Touche - pressure, rocking front-to-back, and stroking the surface in X-Y fashion - all at once. The Expressive-e guys have their own sensor technology and while it does have some moving parts they are making available replacement "pressure rings" in different thicknesses and levels of hardness, so odds are good that spares for the wear parts will be available.

We are definitely spoilt for choice with MPE controllers right now. Roli will not be missed. Over on the GearSpace thread about the death of Roli someone pasted a block of text from a GlassDoor review of what it's like to work at their HQ and it did not paint a pretty picture. What I heard is that they took a pile of VC cash to expand, and even got their products in Apple stores, but were wildly optimistic about the extent to which their weird-o devices could supplant more conventional controllers for the laptop / beat-making generation. I actually went to the roll-out event for the original Seaboard 88 at some studio here in Los Angeles some years ago, and after playing with it a little bit, I did not place an order.

Although Ryan Gosling did play one on-screen in La La Land...


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## el-bo (Sep 3, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Roli will not be missed.


I suspect that I’m not the only one who’ll miss them. Certainly, if this sounds the death-knell for 3 very capable and highly/regarded synths (Equator/Cypher/Strobe), that the number of those mourning the loss will increase, significantly.


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## charlieclouser (Sep 3, 2021)

el-bo said:


> I suspect that I’m not the only one who’ll miss them. Certainly, if this sounds the death-knell for 3 very capable and highly/regarded synths (Equator/Cypher/Strobe), that the number of those mourning the loss will increase, significantly.


Cypher and Strobe are FxPansion products, and will continue to be available post-Roli.









FXpansion


FXpansion - UK based music software developers - makers of BFD3, Geist2, Strobe2 and Cypher2.




www.fxpansion.com


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## el-bo (Sep 3, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Cypher and Strobe are FxPansion products, and will continue to be available post-Roli.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting. I hadn’t realised it was still possible to purchasethe synths via FXP.

Still doesn’t account for Equator, though that might survive the transition to whatever ROLI becomes.

Cheers!


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## jononotbono (Sep 3, 2021)

I've got a Seaboard and rarely use it. In the past I've liked playing bass lines on it (with Modo Bass) as it's practically impossible to play the exact same thing twice so it gives a bit of variety with note velocities but it's not like it's essential to anything I ever do. Looks good though.

I'm waiting for this Osmose. I mean, that thing looks incredible.


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## EvilDragon (Sep 3, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Cypher and Strobe are FxPansion products, and will continue to be available post-Roli.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Except Angus left FXPansion and joined Image-Line now, so who knows what becomes of them altogether...


KMM stuff just looks tacky and makes me not wanna use any of them, even if they're great. He definitely needs to find a good industrial designer. But then again, if he doesn't want to, that's fine too. Less sales for him (I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who can't go past the tacky look).


Don't forget Sensel Morph, everyone. It's a cool bit of kit.



Apparently Luminary will reiintroduce Seaboard in 2022. Let's see what happens. Hope my Rise 49 doesn't become a doorstop. Although, that thing IS really difficult to play. I should probably get a Linnstrument and a Continuum at some point. Already have Osmose on preorder.


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## jononotbono (Sep 3, 2021)

EvilDragon said:


> Although, that thing IS really difficult to play.


It really is isn't it. I've got over the fact I have this amazingly slick looking thing and basically it's just ridiculous to use and I can barely write music with it. Although, I sometimes touch the rubber depending on how much I've been drinking as it does feel good. 😂


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## AdamKmusic (Sep 3, 2021)

Always thought about picking one up but my uses would’ve been quite limited (probably just to use for S+A libraries). I imagine the price of 2nd hand ones will go up even more now


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## gamma-ut (Sep 3, 2021)

el-bo said:


> Makes sense. Although they might’ve been able to get away with reinforcing specific areas, no?


Possibly, but it's quite a thin design. You could wind up with the situation where it winds up being quite bulky because you have to shape the metal support to improve rigidity. As they ship(ped) it with a carrying case and did promote it as portable, it might not be a great tradeoff. The advantage of the current design is that the metal is shaped into a box to begin with (though feeling around the joints just now makes me think they may have had to use quite a pricey milling process to form the top, so maybe plastic and metal structs would have cut the costs).


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## SD_HG (Sep 3, 2021)

maybe this could be an alternative


AdamKmusic said:


> Always thought about picking one up but my uses would’ve been quite limited (probably just to use for S+A libraries). I imagine the price of 2nd hand ones will go up even more now


I always thought about buying one of these: https://www.keithmcmillen.com/products/k-board-pro-4/

edit: saw that they dropped the price...but nah I don't know


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## rroc (Sep 3, 2021)

Well, hyper-growth was always going to be tricky at that price point, but I love my little seaboard block and am glad to hear that they're basically continuing on under new name with maybe more realistic financial goals? https://roli.com/stories/roli-reforms-as-luminary-what-you-need-to-know


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## Technostica (Sep 3, 2021)

The thread title could do with showing that the company are restructuring and not closing down.


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## Nico5 (Sep 3, 2021)

rroc said:


> under new name with maybe more realistic financial goals?


... the new investor is also a venture capital company from what I can tell, so I would be surprised if their goals would be any lower after the pivot. Also, the pivot seems to be explicitly abandoning the pro market, because you can't do a moon-shot with it.


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## rroc (Sep 3, 2021)

Nico5 said:


> ... the new investor is also a venture capital company from what I can tell, so I would be surprised if their goals would be any lower after the pivot. Also, the pivot seems to be explicitly abandoning the pro market, because you can't do a moon-shot with it.


Yep, and that's pretty much what's wrong with the world  What fantastic things could be created if the focus could be on improving lives rather than generating money.


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## MartinH. (Sep 3, 2021)

Somehow I think aiming a 299$ 2 octave keyboard at the beginner market is even more doomed to fail. What beginner starts out with such a keyboard? What teacher would ever recommend a 2 octave keyboard to a student? Are the keys even full sized? Doesn't look like it to me. You could get a Komplete Kontrol keyboard with 49 or 61 keys for that money that has light up keys too. I don't get it...


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## lychee (Sep 3, 2021)

Sad story that of Roli, I never use a keyboard for my compositions (I work with the piano roll), but Roli and his Seabord made me want to get started.
I still do not understand why the MPE has not become the standard of keyboards today?
Only the price of the material to curb my enthusiasm, otherwise I would be with a Roli or a K-Board for a long time.

by the way the K-Board Pro 4 at $ 599 instead of $ 895, that starts to be interesting, and thanks SD_HG for the info.


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## gamma-ut (Sep 3, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> Somehow I think aiming a 299$ 2 octave keyboard at the beginner market is even more doomed to fail. What beginner starts out with such a keyboard? What teacher would ever recommend a 2 octave keyboard to a student? Are the keys even full sized? Doesn't look like it to me. You could get a Komplete Kontrol keyboard with 49 or 61 keys for that money that has light up keys too. I don't get it...


They're mini keys, though more in line with the Seaboard Block than the Korg minikeys. So, no, not great for learning piano.

I suspect what's happened is that the "Peloton for piano" is what they've told the private-equity people to get some money in the short term: it's easy to understand and the finance guys either don't know the issues or have chosen to look the other way while they institute what you might call the Singing Horse* strategy: keep selling what they've got and hope something turns up or get a buyout offer from a larger player that at least gives the VCs some return on their outlay**. That's probably why they've chosen administration as a big player doesn't want all that debt to deal with.

* After the fable of Nasruddin and the Sultan's Horse. "Maybe tomorrow the horse will have learned to sing."

** The thing to bear in mind here is that they are not generally gambling with their own money but other people's, so a loss here or there isn't that big an issue as long as they collect some fees and don't have so many failures no-one trusts them with cash anymore.


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## rgames (Sep 3, 2021)

EvilDragon said:


> that thing IS really difficult to play


I wouldn't say it's difficult to play but it is harder to play than a regular keyboard. 

A violin is difficult to play. The Seaboard isn't nearly as difficult to play as a violin but you do have to take time to develop some technique. It's certainly not as immediate as a regular MIDI keyboard controller.

But I think that was part of the problem with it: the market it was going into wasn't really amenable to something that takes some commitment to learn to play. People who buy violins expect a learning curve; I don't think the same is true for people in the market for MIDI keyboard controllers.

rgames


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## el-bo (Sep 3, 2021)

gamma-ut said:


> Possibly, but it's quite a thin design. You could wind up with the situation where it winds up being quite bulky because you have to shape the metal support to improve rigidity. As they ship(ped) it with a carrying case and did promote it as portable, it might not be a great tradeoff. The advantage of the current design is that the metal is shaped into a box to begin with (though feeling around the joints just now makes me think they may have had to use quite a pricey milling process to form the top, so maybe plastic and metal structs would have cut the costs).


You definitely know a lot more about it than I, so I defer to your opinion


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## D Halgren (Sep 3, 2021)

Technostica said:


> The thread title could do with showing that the company are restructuring and not closing down.


Done 😃


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## Regentag (Sep 3, 2021)

What a shame. But you could see it coming. They made lots of bad decisions. Instead of making sure all the professionals love and buy their stuff, they went to make mobile phone toy apps to sell sounds for rich kids. Or useless software where you couldn't even save a preset. Still love my Songmaker Kit.


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## el-bo (Sep 3, 2021)

EvilDragon said:


> Although, that thing IS really difficult to play.


I disagree. I think the 'key' is to treat it like learning a totally new instrument. When I got mine, I put my standard keyboard into storage. It was over a year later that I retrieved it (Missed the extra octave and modwheel). Now I use both. But in that year it became normal for me to use. I'm no maestro (not on standard keys, either), but it no longer feels like a foreign object.

And I have zero issues playing with consistent velocities. Best key-bed for finger-drumming, also, that I've found.

Now I use both standard and ROLI, with muscle memory handling both easily


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## RogiervG (Sep 3, 2021)

Roli sounds nicer to the ears, than limunary imho.

Roli seaboard vs limunary seaboard... hmmmmmm


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## doctoremmet (Sep 3, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Cypher and Strobe are FxPansion products, and will continue to be available post-Roli.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


FXpansion was bought by ROLI. So you think that subsidiary will be somehow sold off to new investors?


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## stixman (Sep 3, 2021)

I noticed Amaz selling seaboard block 25 for £209 last year snapped it up quick…it’s cool…got the Sensel plus continuumini…passed on the Osmose…I’ll be fine with these…hope it pans out ok for the future supply.


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## Technostica (Sep 3, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> FXpansion was bought by ROLI. So you think that subsidiary will be somehow sold off to new investors?


2020: BFD ACQUIRED BY INMUSIC









FXpansion


FXpansion - UK based music software developers - makers of BFD3, Geist2, Strobe2 and Cypher2.




www.fxpansion.com


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## doctoremmet (Sep 3, 2021)

Technostica said:


> 2020: BFD ACQUIRED BY INMUSIC
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Exactly. ROLI acquired Fxpansion (or ROLI’s parent company / the venture vultures did) to grab some cool MPE synths. They had no use for BFD so they sold it off. At least that’s what I figured had happened?


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## doctoremmet (Sep 3, 2021)

FXpansion acquired by ROLI


We're thrilled to announce that FXpansion has joined ROLI




www.fxpansion.com


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## doctoremmet (Sep 3, 2021)

So the question remains what’ll eventually happen with the synths. Since they are truly fantastic they’ll show up somewhere else or will remain with Luminary.


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## Technostica (Sep 3, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Exactly. ROLI acquired Fxpansion (or ROLI’s parent company / the venture vultures did) to grab some cool MPE synths. They had no use for BFD so they sold it off. At least that’s what I figured had happened?


My bad, I thought BFD was also the holding company for FXPansion.


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## Macrawn (Sep 3, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> All your base are belong to Francisco Partners.


What is this about Francisco Partners? Did they end up with Roli now?


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## doctoremmet (Sep 3, 2021)

Technostica said:


> My bad, I thought BFD was also the holding company for FXPansion.


IIRC BFD was their drum sample environment

Check ✅





__





BFD3 Account migration: From FXPansion to inMusic (Free expansion and new software update)


Anyone done it yet? Apparently we get a free expansion and a new update :)




vi-control.net


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Sep 3, 2021)

EvilDragon said:


> Don't forget Sensel Morph, everyone. It's a cool bit of kit.


That's the one I'm waiting for(ever)...


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## kgdrum (Sep 3, 2021)

Tatiana Gordeeva said:


> That's the one I'm waiting for(ever)...


+1 I just found out about Sensel Morph from a recent post from @charlieclouser it looks so cool!
I’m almost afraid to ask: Aunt Tati how long have you been waiting for this seductive piece of kit?
Thanks 😊


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Sep 3, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> How long have you been waiting for this seductive piece of kit?


I might be wrong but I think for about a year now, on email waiting lists of several vendors. Not one in sight yet. Overlays yes, but not the surface itself. I discussed it somewhere else on VI-C.

Also check this thing called the Willowisp based on it:





Willowisp (aka Wisp) MPE anyone?


I'm curious about this MPE controller: https://www.willowisplabs.com/features It seems to be based on a Sensel Morph. It is MPE compatible like the ROLI. None of these controllers seems to be available right now, for some reason. Are they so popular, not popular or just too expensive?




vi-control.net


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## charlieclouser (Sep 3, 2021)

EvilDragon said:


> KMM stuff just looks tacky and makes me not wanna use any of them, even if they're great. He definitely needs to find a good industrial designer. But then again, if he doesn't want to, that's fine too. Less sales for him (I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who can't go past the tacky look).


Yes I agree - the red+white+blue scheme on the K-Board Pro4 makes it look like a prop from bicentennial parade. Cue the 76 trombones!

But every time I play one at NAMM I am impressed. At $599 it's more attractive than at $899 for sure, and at least it's small and thin and seems solidly built.

I really wish the Osmose had front-to-back sensing on the keys. That would be huge.


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## charlieclouser (Sep 3, 2021)

.... and then there's this thing:






Embodme Home


This is the home of Embodme. A hub for all our latest technologies and collaborations.




www.embodme.com





Looks like it's not shipping yet, and first round of units will go to kickstarter backers though. Seems to be somewhere between a giant Roli Block, a Linnstrument, and an iPad. So maybe that makes it less of a keyboard-like device for inputting realistic violin parts and more a giant Kaoss pad for inputting.... chaos I guess. The software editor for designing user layouts looks nifty however.

850 Euros.


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Sep 3, 2021)

Also for _a lot_ less money ($10) there is http://www.musikraken.com/ (thanks @Markrs) which, for iPad at least, acts like an MPE controller.


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## kgdrum (Sep 3, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> .... and then there's this thing:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


@charlieclouser 
man you are really dangerous for my wallet,you keep showing us 
all of these cool toys! I feel like I’m on 48th St back in the day……….
I’m starting to think of you as VI-C CANDY-MAN Charlie! 😂


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## charlieclouser (Sep 3, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> @charlieclouser
> man you are really dangerous for my wallet,you keep showing us
> all of these cool toys! I feel like I’m on 48th St back in the day……….
> I’m starting to think of you as VI-C CANDY-MAN Charlie! 😂


hahah just call me "Mister Add-To-Cart"


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## rnb_2 (Sep 3, 2021)

Tatiana Gordeeva said:


> Also for _a lot_ less money ($10) there is http://www.musikraken.com/ (thanks @Markrs) which, for iPad at least, acts like an MPE controller.


There's also @Golden Frog's AudioSwift (Mac only), which can do MPE along with several other things via the trackpad.


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## Alchemedia (Sep 3, 2021)

Macrawn said:


> What is this about Francisco Partners? Did they end up with Roli now?


Not yet, however they seem to Bezos everything they can.


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## MisteR (Sep 3, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> ...
> Although Ryan Gosling did play one on-screen in La La Land...


Yeah, I never understood why Roli celebrated that appearance. The movie is clearly making fun of the Seaboard in that scene, equating the Seaboard with the waste of Sebastian's talent. Look no further than Emma Stone's reaction shots.


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## gamma-ut (Sep 3, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> .... and then there's this thing:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Tenori-on rides again!


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## charlieclouser (Sep 3, 2021)

gamma-ut said:


> The Tenori-on rides again!


Tenori-On.... now that's a name I haven't heard in a long time...

*shudder*


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## krops (Sep 4, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Yes I agree - the red+white+blue scheme on the K-Board Pro4 makes it look like a prop from bicentennial parade. Cue the 76 trombones!
> 
> But every time I play one at NAMM I am impressed. At $599 it's more attractive than at $899 for sure, and at least it's small and thin and seems solidly built.
> 
> I really wish the Osmose had front-to-back sensing on the keys. That would be huge.


I really agree on the K-board Pro 4 look, but I'm willing to make that sacrifice if it it's really good to play. Someone else mentioned that the keys are like the keys on the small K-board (which I have), but I kind of got the impression they might not have actually touched them. The small K-Board is very rubbery and there's too much resistance to do finger slides up and down. I also have the QuNeo, which is a lot smoother for this sort of thing. So, seeing as you've actually had your hands on the K-board Pro 4, how would you describe the surface of the keys?

Side note: I think both the K-board/QuNexus and the QuNeo look pretty nice, at least compared to the KBP4, so it's not like all their products look awful.


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## Loïc D (Sep 4, 2021)

And there’s Joué Pro by Joué Music.





Joué Pro


Joué Music Instruments is a company dedicated to make sustainable and playful instruments for professional and amateur musicians. Everyone can play music.




jouemusic.com





I had one that I sold (I had barely any use it). It works well.


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## lychee (Sep 4, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> .... and then there's this thing:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I had seen this Erae Touch in the early days and thought it was kind of a big Roli Block like you.
But after watching this new video, it shows that it's more of a sort of Sensel / Joué with the benefit of not having to manually replace the interface with rubber plates.
Good concept, but too bad for the poor resolution of the interface.

For me the best of the best is TouchKeys, a kit that you stick on the keyboard of your choice and which transforms it into Osmose like:




The thing is, it costs a kidney, maybe even both for a guy like me (£ 1,298 for 88 keys), and you better take Osmose straight away.


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## charlieclouser (Sep 4, 2021)

krops said:


> Someone else mentioned that the keys are like the keys on the small K-board (which I have), but I kind of got the impression they might not have actually touched them. The small K-Board is very rubbery and there's too much resistance to do finger slides up and down. I also have the QuNeo, which is a lot smoother for this sort of thing. So, seeing as you've actually had your hands on the K-board Pro 4, how would you describe the surface of the keys?


It's been a couple of years since I touched a Pro4, and that was at a NAMM show in less than ideal conditions, but as far as I remember the keys were definitely that white rubbery silicon material, and did not move other than how much you can squash them with finger pressure, but they did seem to have a shiny coating which made sliding around much easier than on the little K-Boards. You can see the dark blue "paint" on the black keys, and I think a similar coating was on the white keys as well - but I can't be completely sure. I remember thinking, "Hmmm.... that's neat, that works, bookmark this one..." but I haven't touched one since.


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## Markrs (Sep 4, 2021)

lychee said:


> The thing is, it costs a kidney, maybe even both for a guy like me (£ 1,298 for 88 keys), and you better take Osmose straight away.


Looks really interesting but priced way too high for most people. As you say, I would rather pay a similar amount for an Osmose


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## lychee (Sep 4, 2021)

Markrs said:


> Looks really interesting but priced way too high for most people. As you say, I would rather pay a similar amount for an Osmose


There is a second disadvantage, it is that the installation of the kit requires to disassemble its keyboard.
In other words, it is not within the reach of everyone, and that also poses the problem of warranty.


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## AnhrithmonGelasma (Sep 4, 2021)

Tatiana Gordeeva said:


> Also for _a lot_ less money ($10) there is http://www.musikraken.com/ (thanks @Markrs) which, for iPad at least, acts like an MPE controller.


Nice, it apparently still works with 3D touch (discontinued after iPhone XS) for polyphonic aftertouch / press. Facial expression / hand gesture / voice / accelerometer to MPE also look interesting.


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## Golden Frog (Sep 4, 2021)

For any Apple Trackpad, AudioSwift for macOS is MPE compatible. It transforms the surface into a grid-style MPE controller. Trackpads with Force Touch (any MacBook from 2016 or a Magic Trackpad 2) can send global aftertouch. Here is a demo with Audio Damage Quanta:


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## Getsumen (Sep 4, 2021)

Dang, I don't know how I only just saw this. Here to chime in my two cents that no one asked for ^_^

Personally, I never understood the use of the Seaboard. Its price is so much higher for so little actual use I feel. Fun as a gimmick for occasional play, but MPE for actual use always seemed awkward to use for me at least. The trade-off for that compared for the.. feeling? of whatever foam or material they used just always struck me as a negative. Also just seemed awkward to play with sliding around all over the place. (Note: I have not actually played on one of these, it's just my impressions from watching various videos over the years) 

The fact that they're moving on to focus on Lumi Keys confuses me even more. It must mean that it was popular then right? But who pays 300$ For Lumi keys? The playable range is astoundingly small, and the benefits it grants are not worth the price for such a small board imo.

The subscription may be useful for some I suppose, but personally, I wonder how useful those piano learning apps and such are at actually teaching piano. Then again I learned piano the "traditional" way before I discovered what a piano roll even was. 80$ seems steep to me either way


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## Double Helix (Oct 17, 2021)

Perhaps I am not the only interested party to have received this email:





I took the short survey in the hope that Roli will return stronger than ever--it's said to be an effective controller for Audio Modeling and Sample Modeling instruments.


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## Christian Thon (Oct 17, 2021)

I hope as many ROLI users as possible take this survey. Fingers crossed for continued product support.


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## sostenuto (Oct 17, 2021)

Getsumen said:


> Dang, I don't know how I only just saw this. Here to chime in my two cents that no one asked for ^_^
> 
> Personally, I never understood the use of the Seaboard. Its price is so much higher for so little actual use I feel. Fun as a gimmick for occasional play, but MPE for actual use always seemed awkward to use for me at least. (edit) ******************


Always .... personal taste. Respect these impressions. 

Jordan Rudess' various YT Vids were impressive _ _personally_. 
Sad things have not worked out well for Seaboard.


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## doctoremmet (Oct 17, 2021)

Double Helix said:


> Perhaps I am not the only interested party to have received this email:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


+1


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## puremusic (Oct 17, 2021)

While I'm sure it's not happening for the obvious reasons, I would've liked to've seen the Grand come back in a version 2. It would be nice if they fixed their iOS apps too.


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## AnhrithmonGelasma (Oct 19, 2021)

puremusic said:


> While I'm sure it's not happening for the obvious reasons, I would've liked to've seen the Grand come back in a version 2. It would be nice if they fixed their iOS apps too.


After the announcement they released two new expansions for Equator2---one by Luftrum....

Not sure if there was an update to Noise or if iPadOS updates fixed it, but the iPad Pro bug is no longer occurring. 

Love my Seaboard Blocks... so much more expressive than a keyboard (especially for woodwinds, brass, strings, synths, etc.). Can play faster too.


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## Michael Antrum (Oct 19, 2021)

I bought a Seaboard Rise 25 second hand from eBay a few years ago. It is an interesting product, and I haven't used it as much as I thought I would have, but is it probably one of the best quality manufactured products I own. It really is beautifully built.

Which made me all the more surprised when they launched the Lumi. I thought it might be an interesting product for people like me who travel a fair bit. Put three or more of them in a bag, and in the hotel room you can clip them all together. The only issue was everyone who had one said that is was a piece of cheap plastic rubbish. For £ 299.00 !

I may be extrapolating, but it kind of sounds like Roli started out as a company wanting to make an innovative product, and then changed into a company that was solely interest in making money.

Plus the Seaboard Rise has been out of stock for absolutely ages - you couldn't order one.

I'll be keeping my Seaboard Rise, I didn't pay a lot for it, but I do occasionally bring it out and it's kind of fun, but if you want to see one really sing - this performance was mesmerising.....


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## sostenuto (Oct 19, 2021)

AnhrithmonGelasma said:


> After the announcement they released two new expansions for Equator2---one by Luftrum....
> 
> Not sure if there was an update to Noise or if iPadOS updates fixed it, but the iPad Pro bug is no longer occurring.
> 
> Love my Seaboard Blocks... so much more expressive than a keyboard (especially for woodwinds, brass, strings, synths, etc.). Can play faster too.


*Lightpad Block M Studio Edition @ $200. Still solid choice right now ?? *​*Serious Q ! *​Was headed to quality drum pad, but this is whole nuther thing ... 🤷🏻‍♂️


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## handz (Oct 19, 2021)

This is really sad, did not own anything from them, but I loved all the videos and design of the products, just wasn't brave enough to actually buy something so experimental. (which may be why it ended like it did)


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## Auf dem Wolf (Oct 19, 2021)

Huh, was just looking at trying out MPE - but dubious reviews and high price has me hesitating on the Lumi.


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## sostenuto (Oct 19, 2021)

No rave comments re. Lightpad Block M Studio Edition for Drum pad use ??


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## doctoremmet (Oct 19, 2021)

sostenuto said:


> No rave comments re. Lightpad Block M Studio Edition for Drum pad use ??


Have it. And: nope. It’s nice and has some nice features. Yet -being an Ableton guy- my Push is SO much better.


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## sostenuto (Oct 19, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Have it. And: nope. It’s nice and has some nice features. Yet -being an Ableton guy- my Push is SO much better.


THX Much ! Actually almost grabbed eBay - Keith McMillen QuNeo 3D Multi-Touch Pad Controller K-707
after @ Bee_Abney post. Still sorting.


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## doctoremmet (Oct 19, 2021)

sostenuto said:


> THX Much ! Actually almost grabbed eBay - Keith McMillen QuNeo 3D Multi-Touch Pad Controller K-707
> after @ Bee_Abney post. Still sorting.


FWIW I rate Bee’s judgment really high.


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## sostenuto (Oct 19, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> FWIW I rate Bee’s judgment really high.


Yes ! .... and need to get off edge and in pool, to learn. AKAI MPC /MPD touted so much, Maschine, as well, yet price point of 'previously owned' QuNeo is comfy place to start. 

Not ignoring your Push comment, and checking now. Only Reaper user _ no Ableton exposure.


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## AnhrithmonGelasma (Jan 28, 2022)

"Stay tuned for a Seaboard announcement in the coming weeks."


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## Michael Antrum (Jan 28, 2022)

AnhrithmonGelasma said:


> "Stay tuned for a Seaboard announcement in the coming weeks."


You're worse than Spitfire Audio....


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## AnhrithmonGelasma (Jan 28, 2022)

Michael Antrum said:


> You're worse than Spitfire Audio....


Email 2 weeks ago:

"Exciting Seaboard news is on the way in the coming months, so stay tuned" 

Last week:

"Stay tuned for the next Seaboard chapter, announced very soon!"

So it went from "months" to "very soon" to "coming weeks"... meanwhile I plan on doing most of my music gear spending (until next BF) this February, so I'm hoping they hurry up and make the announcement by the third week of February at the latest.


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## el-bo (Jan 28, 2022)

AnhrithmonGelasma said:


> "Stay tuned for a Seaboard announcement in the coming weeks."


They're about to release something I'm gonna want, but can't afford...aren't they?


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## lychee (Jan 28, 2022)

el-bo said:


> They're about to release something I'm gonna want, but can't afford...aren't they?


I'm unfortunately in the same case, why wasn't I born a rich kid? 😭


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## AnhrithmonGelasma (Feb 10, 2022)

Redesigned Seaboard coming in March.

Not clear if it's compatible with Blocks (doesn't look likely going by that video?), or if they'll also start selling new Seaboard Blocks in March.


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## Prockamanisc (Feb 10, 2022)

I really regret not buying the 88 key version, but I also couldn't afford it when it was available.


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## AnhrithmonGelasma (Feb 10, 2022)

Prockamanisc said:


> I really regret not buying the 88 key version, but I also couldn't afford it when it was available.


I really hope their redesign doesn't rule out a more affordable Blocks version. With ongoing supply chain shortages I guess they might not be able to produce both? And in any case they'll probably only have a limited supply, so preorders might sell out?


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## zzz00m (Mar 30, 2022)

https://roli.com/products/seaboard/rise2


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## Windbag (Mar 30, 2022)

I'm pretty interested in this new 49 - i've been using the 4-octave pair of linked Blocks (Since finding them, surprisingly, more predictable than the larger/squishier Rise 49) and to say I've been happy with the setup would be a dramatic understatement...they've significantly changed my capability when it comes to VIs. Interested to hear hands-on reports on the new one....

• Those "fret" ridges look like a good idea...it's not terribly difficult to hit a sour note on those waves otherwise, take it from me
• Curious if the surface is any firmer like my Blocks, or as squishy as the original Rise
• any other hardware/sensor changes?

My experience with them side by side seemed to suggest some improvement between the Rise 49 I had briefly and the newer blocks (unless i just got a problematic 49), so I'm hoping the trend continues. 

...also just nice to see signs of life and development over there, after some troubling rumors floating around.


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## AnhrithmonGelasma (Mar 30, 2022)

Windbag said:


> I'm pretty interested in this new 49 - i've been using the 4-octave pair of linked Blocks (Since finding them, surprisingly, more predictable than the larger/squishier Rise 49) and to say I've been happy with the setup would be a dramatic understatement...they've significantly changed my capability when it comes to VIs. Interested to hear hands-on reports on the new one....
> 
> • Those "fret" ridges look like a good idea...it's not terribly difficult to hit a sour note on those waves otherwise, take it from me
> • Curious if the surface is any firmer like my Blocks, or as squishy as the original Rise
> ...


"Unlike a piano, it is possible for one's fingers to slip off of the keys, or become disoriented and unintentionally alter pitch. This is something we progressively improved from the GRAND to RISE to Seaboard BLOCK, but our research into the neuroscience of musical performance — particularly the cognitive loop that takes place between fine motor control and tactile perception — led us to identify a design flaw in the Seaboard.

In trying to make the Seaboard continuous, I had initially given it a curved sine wave-like structure. But our research suggested that auditory and visual perception is not fast or accurate enough to track the finger-by-finger micro adjustments that are necessary to play a continuous pitch instrument like the Seaboard in tune across multiple voices. Not only would one’s fingers slip off the keys, one couldn’t easily perceive exactly where on the key one’s finger is touching. You must have a muscle memory trigger to make the required micro-corrections in real time that enable mastery of an instrument. But because the Seaboard offers so many expressive variables (effectively 50 because you can modulate each of your 10 fingers in 5 dimensions), it is even more essential to be able to rely on muscle memory instead of a visual or audio reference of where your fingers are on the Keywaves.

In designing a solution, we took some of the advances we made with the Seaboard Block surface shape and also looked to other branches of the instrument family tree that also have relatively expressive gestural control, especially string instruments where continuous pitched playing creates profound expressiveness but also real challenges associated with playing in tune. The result is Keywave2, and what we feel is the most approachable, easiest to play interface we’ve ever made. It features precision frets, small embossed lines of silicone down the centre of each key which, like a guitar’s fretboard, serve as a motor-sensory guide. We’ve also broadened the surface and articulated the shoulders of each keywave to further improve register.

Collectively, they are subtle changes that lead to an entirely new playing experience. When we shared the new surface with seasoned composer A. R. Rahman, a long time supporter whose advice we trust deeply, noted that when playing he could now just close his eyes, play a solo, and feel it."









Seaboard RISE 2: The Seaboard I’d always dreamed of making | ROLI


Roland Lamb explains what makes RISE 2 the best Seaboard yet



roli.com


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## JamelaBanderson (Mar 30, 2022)

I have and love my Rise 49-key, but the fret ridges do look appealing. I wonder if I'd be able to sell it for close to the cost of the Rise 2 if ordered.


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## AnhrithmonGelasma (Mar 30, 2022)

JamelaBanderson said:


> I have and love my Rise 49-key, but the fret ridges do look appealing. I wonder if I'd be able to sell it for close to the cost of the Rise 2 if ordered.


"I couldn't find a Seaboard Rise 49 on eBay that wasn't under $1,800, and even those were heavily used with only one of them coming with all the licenses.

As a music producer, this was 100% worth it for me. "


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