# Need Life/Career Advice



## Hakurosalix (Jul 19, 2022)

This is my first post here, so hello! I'm sort of having a moment in my life right now where I'm heavily debating making a giant switch in the path I'll take moving forward and with my relationship with music, and was hoping that I could get the advice of the people here who have more knowledge of the industry, composing, and just generally how the world works. 

I apologize for the following word dump, but honestly I'm just extremely unsure about what to do and am very scared about making a decision that I may regret for the rest of my life, so if you can bear with me and give me any sort of advice, I would be immensely grateful. 

I'm currently 23 years old, recently graduated from a pretty well regarded liberal arts college with a degree in music. I've played guitar for a long time, and going into my undergrad I didn't know exactly what I wanted to do, but I loved playing guitar and was already quite good at it, and figured that I would like to learn more about music and potentially go down the gigging/professional musician route. I did very well for myself academically at the school, graduating magna cum laude with honors in music, but in terms of forging connections that would lead me to anything lucrative in terms of industry involvement, it hasn't really led to much. I often wonder if I should have gone for a more dedicated music school, like Berkley or something, but at that point in my life I felt I was still too unsure about what to do to make that sort of a decision. Though I did think about transferring, I always shied away due to feeling like I was already far enough in that I should just finish. Looking back, I already don't think this was true, but ultimately I stayed where I was. 

During this time, however, I grew increasingly interested in composing music, specifically for media. To be honest, video-game/film music was always my primary source of inspiration and is what got me interested in music at a very young age, so I suppose it was always sort of in my DNA, it just took me a while to really shift myself from the heavily "guitar-centric" music mindset that I was in to actually realizing that this was a world that I could potentially enter myself. I should say that composition was not a focus of the music department where I studied much at all; there was one optional course, only offered certain semesters, and on top of this I had heard mixed things about the instructor, and having had experience interacting with him enough myself, I was not particularly thrilled with him, to be honest. COVID and it shifting to being online when I was thinking about it was also a factor, so ultimately I didn't take the course.

I starting trying to shift my focus toward writing music on my own toward the end of my undergrad, and ultimately I made the decision that I was going to attempt to go to graduate school for a screen scoring program. I didn't decide this immediately after graduating, but after a few months at home working a part time job and floundering a little, I made the decision. For the past year or so, I've been at home, working part time in a pretty dead-end job, working on writing music on my own, as well as taking piano lessons as I felt that it would be beneficial to my composing and working with virtual instruments, which I can definitely say is true. Wish I started learning piano when I was younger, because man I really love it and just how intuitive it is, but that's a separate discussion.

I took private composition lessons with an instructor at the University of Pittsburgh (where I'm based) this past semester which was very helpful - largely as a confidence boost that I can actually write music. I wrote my first couple pieces for string quartet during this semester, and had my first experience leading a recording session to have them recorded live. Since it was my first time doing so, I'll say I felt very out of place and unsure of myself, but it was overall a great experience and one that I would love to have the opportunity to do again. 

Now, my plan was to apply for a couple film scoring programs, with the ones in NYU and CC Chicago being my top picks. USC seems like the biggest one that people recommend, but I'll say that I'm not thrilled by the idea of me moving to California, and neither is my family.

This brings me to my current dilemma. I'm simply unsure if I'm cut out to get in to these programs, as although I have improved considerably over the past year since I've started, I'm still very much a learner. I just haven't been doing this for long. And I compare myself to others who have applied to programs like USC, even people my age, who have a good 4 or so years having gone to a composition program for undergraduate, and I just am lost. On top of this, even if I were to get in to, say, NYU, and move to New York to go all out, I feel incredibly worried that I would be able to walk out with the connections and experiences needed in order to start working. I've heard from a fair amount of people, specifically here as well, that graduate school for music and composition is a big no-no, and that the only thing that matters in this industry is who you know. 

So now I'm heavily considering dropping the graduate school in composing idea, and instead looking for a different path while still continuing to pursue music in my own time. There's a 1 year post bacc program at a good university near me in computer science that I'm considering, that with hard work will hopefully get me near up to speed in that area as I do not have experience with computer science in my undergrad. I've always been pretty good at math though, and it isn't something that I entirely hate, though I of course have no clue if I'll even like computer science. Assuming I do, however, I can transfer those credits into a masters degree in that area if I wanted at the same university, or perhaps look for work right afterwards. 

It isn't like I didn't know the odds, and I suppose up until now I've just been hiding behind the mindset of "I'm young, I'm smart, I will do what I have to do, you only live once and I need to go all out, and somehow I'll figure it out, I'm not going to live the rest of my life in regret," etc. But recently I've really started to force myself to grasp that I have no clue if I'll be able to make whatever connections or work experience that is necessary during my masters in order to find work afterward, especially given my previous experience during my undergrad where I was not able to really make many applicable connections outside of if I wanted to specifically go into academia. I'm also just a pretty introverted person who comes from a family of smart but introverted people who's life story is about proving themselves in school and academia and finding work and succeeding from that success, not from being highly marketable/sociable people who maneuver themselves into opportunities, if that makes sense. I also just hear about the work life of people who do get those golden opportunities, and how even for them it is an endless and tireless siege that only the best of the best make it through. And I look at myself and think about where I would potentially be in just 3 years time, and I have no clue if I'll be able to survive in that environment, and I have no idea if I'm cut out for that. 

But at the same time, this is what I love doing. This is my dream, to work on music for media (specifically video-games). And every fibre in my being is telling me that I might regret this decision for the rest of my life. Nothing else matters to me in the world as much as this. And in a way this is all I have, this is just my identity. But another part of me knows that I'm young, you don't need a masters degree to compose music, I can still pursue it in my own time, and who knows what the future holds, right? But neither decision feels good. And right now I really feel I just need to make a decision. There's also the option of attending the post-bacc program while still applying for grad school for next year, but that feels much like a half commitment, and I'd have far less time to hone my skills over the next year in that instance. 

I know I'm probably making too much of a big deal out of pursuing something else, but I'm just feeling lost enough that any advice would be appreciated. I apologize again for the word dump. Not sure it matters, but if you want to sample some of my projects you can find a few on my youtube. Most I haven't shared, but there's some there. I was thinking of using this one to apply with as part of my portfolio, but it's not exactly "media-esque." 

Thank you very much for reading. 

Jack


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## Harzmusic (Jul 19, 2022)

Since there are a lot of different ways to get into this industry, and a lot of ways _not _to get into this industry, it is impossible to give perfect advice. Here's my limited point of view.

First of all I feel for you, and I know parts of this struggle.
I would recommend not to put too much emphasis on academic programs. They _can _be a great resource, you _will _learn a lot and you _might _meet people that help you along the way to build a career. But no academic program alone will prepare you to launch a successful career.
Getting a degree and then "joining the workforce" is not the only way you can go about this. And I believe it is actually a rather uncommon one. It feels more common, that people do a lot of projects all the time, throughout their studies, gradually growing relationships through recurring work. And then for some, a few of those relationships pay off and they "make it". Some of them chose to study film scoring, others didn't.

Especially if you are having a hard time meeting new people, the networking part of this industry can be hard. But it's not just that knowing people leads to work. Working on projects also leads to knowing people. So instead of going to parties, and hoping to hit it off with a future successful game developer, go to places where people need a composer, offer your work, and talk about the work first. You'll get to know each other on the job, form a relationship in a situation where you feel "justified" for being there.

From what I have understood you have not done any scoring work (or game composing) yet, right? That's something you could start right now - check out places where short films are made (any film and media department of any university should be a good start) and start getting taste for the process, _and _get your first references. If you like games more, see if there are any game jams in the area and join up as a composer. All of this can be done awkwardly - I definitely did this at my most awkward when I started out. There's also places on the internet where people offer (unpaid) work.

Get a feel for the job, what it is like writing music for somebody else's vision. It can be very different from writing music for yourself and to your own tastes only.
If you enjoy it, you will already have a few contacts that know that you do this, and you have some projects you can use to apply for a program that suits you.
If you don't enjoy it, you won't have spent years and thousands of dollars just to find that out.

Finally: You have time. Don't think things need to happen immediately. There are not many doors that are closing on you forever just yet.


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## Nico5 (Jul 19, 2022)

Take a programming course. Now! Doesn’t have to be part of a curriculum. 

Find out as fast as possible, if it suits how your mind works and if it brings you joy.

If yes, you probably have your answer. 🙂


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## Kyle Preston (Jul 19, 2022)

Getting through the stressful beginnings of a career, I found books to be the most helpful thing, to investigate the experience and insight of others, was/is a mind balm. It’s stressful and uncertain (it still is for me too), but knowledge helps reduce anxiety — it’s the best way to handle risk imo. 

Business Composing Books:

- Chance Thomas: Composing Music for Games (probably the most comprehensive)
- Winifred Phillips: A Composer's Guide to Game Music
- Emmett Cooke: The Business of Music Licensing
- Dan Graham: A Composer’s Guide to Library Music


I also think choosing, I mean REALLY choosing, one of the following paths:

1. Media Composer
2. Recording Artist

These are very, VERY different paths, and you can kind of do both, but, in my experience, deciding your path earlier will make all the difference in both your career and outlook, which will determine how you assess how “successful” you are. 

Anyway, I’m the inverse of your situation. I was a Physics and Astronomy TA for years (some coding), realized I just didn’t love it the way the people around me did, but music (and being in rock bands for years) was always a stable and important thing for me. So I left a cushy future for a terrifying one — and I’ve loved it every day 

God speed my friend!


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## chillbot (Jul 19, 2022)

Hi, Jack!

(Sorry to hijack this thread.)


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Jul 19, 2022)

I’m just a hobbyist, but I’ve seen what people who are working professionally as composers say about their way of life - short deadlines often, job uncertainty, lack of colleagues unlike in a normal workplace, competition is tough with new people trying to enter the industry all the time etc.

At the same time: I’m 50, and life has taught me a few things, one of them being that if you don’t follow a certain path which you feel you’ve always dreamt about, it’s not a disaster - it can actually be the exact opposite  That if you decide to pursue a different career, you may very well end up looking back as a 50 year old thinking you made the right choice for yourself after all. And it is entirely possible to have composing as a hobby, although the time and energy you’ll have for it will be limited by your day job etc.


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## NoamL (Jul 19, 2022)

Piano lessons - great! essential!

Private composer tutoring - good idea!

Master's degree - highly recommend avoiding UNLESS you can get a scholarship that guarantees you graduate with no or very low debt. Otherwise don't! (NYU grad here - I learned much more from LA internships and then 'working in the trenches' than 2 years of school)

There are 3 questions I have after reading your "word dump" 

1. where are you at on technical skills. Do you know 1 or more DAWs inside and out? Do you understand signal flow and audio processing?

2. Theory skills - can you read music? What is your level of knowledge of harmony, instrumentation, orchestration? Could you orchestrate a piece from a piano sketch for instance?

3. Are you trying to be "a composer" right away or do you see yourself apprenticing with 1 or several composers? What is your immediate goal?

Also I have to say, if you don't love California that's cool, but you should consider that heavily with this career choice. The work is here.


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## Roger Newton (Jul 20, 2022)

Hakurosalix said:


> I'm sort of having a moment in my life right now where I'm heavily debating making a giant switch in the path I'll take moving forward and with my relationship with music, and was hoping that I could get the advice of the people here who have more knowledge of the industry, composing, and just generally how the world works.


Keep it simple.


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## Henu (Jul 20, 2022)

Kyle Preston said:


> - Chance Thomas: Composing Music for Games (probably the most comprehensive)


This is actually a really, really good book if you want to do music for games.


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 20, 2022)

Great advice above. All I'll add is that you're young and presumably without commitments or responsibility for a family/mortgage/job. So if music is what you decide on, now is the time to make it happen.

I know that sounds glib, but once you add "life" into the equation, it fills those 24 hours much faster than you think. Best of luck!


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## jonnybutter (Jul 20, 2022)

Harzmusic said:


> I would recommend not to put too much emphasis on academic programs. They _can _be a great resource, you _will _learn a lot and you _might _meet people that help you along the way to build a career. But no academic program alone will prepare you to launch a successful career.
> Getting a degree and then "joining the workforce" is not the only way you can go about this. And I believe it is actually a rather uncommon one.


Agree very much with Harzmusic here. Once you *know how to learn*, and have gotten to a certain level of expertise, you can absolutely learn without school, and might even learn better without it. It will certainly save you a lot of money! There may be exceptions, but school is not going to help you much with connections (outside of academia). Learn by doing, and by studying on your own. Do some projects for low pay: nothing improves your skill like a deadline and high expectations on the part of your client. I have been doing this for years, and I still learn new things when I have professional work and a deadline to finish it. Good luck


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 20, 2022)

If I were 23 and your shoes (you are still a kid!), I would would go all-in and move to LA. Forget about further "film school degrees" and simply pound the pavement looking for opportunities and an intern (even if it means working at MacDonald's to pay your rent). If it doesn't work out, at least you'll have the satisfaction of knowing you gave it our best shot. Or....you may make some good connections and find your niche.


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## Hakurosalix (Jul 20, 2022)

Thank you very much for all of your replies.

To be honest, I still am just overwhelmed with the options. Right now I am still going back and forth attending a graduate school for music. At the same time though, I more than ever realize that connections are everything, and that moving to a city like New York and getting involved with scoring projects, even if its through the school for assignments in collaboration with other students, does sound like something that would seriously help. As people have noted, I haven't yet really "jumped in" yet as I've just been focused on learning, and with my initial plan I felt that was okay as I would leave the "jumping in" for graduate school.



jonnybutter said:


> Do some projects for low pay: nothing improves your skill like a deadline and high expectations on the part of your client.


I suppose this is sort of a "duh" question, but where exactly should I find these projects? The local university film/media department, as Harzmusic said? So should I just email the director saying "Hey I'm a composer, here's a few tracks proving it, got any needs?" (not in those words of course)

I've googled for game jams in the Pittsburgh area, and haven't come up with much. Seems like there's a good one that happens every January which I can try and get involved in eventually.

I dunno. I suppose I'm still unsure of what exactly "pounding the pavement" as Mr. Spencer states looks like and how one goes about it.

I'm still thinking about the 1 year computer science program too. I mean the issue is that even if I get started looking for composing work immediately (which I am highly unsure if I'm prepared for), and start doing the cold calling thing, looking for anything and everything, my understanding is that that can take some considerable time to lead anywhere. My head is honestly going to the fact that this program would be an intense catchup in a far more employable field that would at the very least get me to a similar position to those who studied it in undergrad, and which can possibly lead to my getting at least an entry level position in that industry so that I have a way forward if this whole music thing never works out. I've spoken to friends who studied it as well as my father, who worked as a software engineer, and they all say I 100% have the aptitude for it. Hell if I love it, then I'll have the option to go directly in a masters in that field with the credits I earned. And all the meanwhile, I can still be working on my music, I can still be reaching out and looking for small projects to score, game jams, etc. It would be far less expensive (at least at the outset) than moving to NYC and paying for a full masters program, and on top of that I have family out in Philly (where the program is) that I can live with for a bit. It's far less money, far less risk, and it gets my foot at least in the doorway to an alternative path.

But that's a half commitment. At least in large part. And is the very fact that I'm considering that path an indication that the professional composer lifestyle isn't for me? While part of me wishes I had the guts, I simply don't feel I can take that leap as Mr. Spencer suggests and just move across the country away from my family and everybody I know to LA, an unfamiliar and intensely expensive area to live, and just grind a dead-end job while hustling and hoping life will work out in the end. And perhaps that's an indication of what I should do instead.


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## TheKRock (Jul 20, 2022)

I think Spencer is right, move to LA...get a gig as a bartender to server and start gigging around town with the goal of meeting people because the number one thing in this biz is relationships. And its super easy to meet people in the bar/resto industry and at gigs...there are of course other jobs you can get that will allow you to meet peeps but its really easy to strike up casual convos at a bar or eatery and just get to meet people while sustaining yourself financially while you start your music career. Just my 2 cents


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 20, 2022)

Hakurosalix said:


> I dunno. I suppose I'm still unsure of what exactly "pounding the pavement" as Mr. Spencer states looks like and how one goes about it.


Good question! Back before the internet, one had to literally go around town visiting production houses, hence the term "pounding the pavement". Same logic now, except it's more knocking on virtual doors. In LA or NY, get out there and meet as many industry contacts as possible, including editors, and attending industry events. In this game, networking (and marketing yourself), is probably 90% of what gets you the leads.....your talent and schooling is only a mere fraction of that. Obtaining a fancy degree in film scoring doesn't get you any further IMO, but it certainly drags down your debt load (and in no way grantees any type of job placement). It's a dog-eat-dog industry, so being a nice guy is also a major plus, no one wants to hire a jerk.

If moving to a major hub isn't an option, I recommend seeking a solid career that interests you (perhaps not even musical), and pursue music as a side hustle. But if becoming a game/film composer is THE dream, moving to a major hub is the way to go.


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## Harzmusic (Jul 20, 2022)

Hakurosalix said:


> But that's a half commitment. At least in large part. And is the very fact that I'm considering that path an indication that the professional composer lifestyle isn't for me?


Nothing wrong with hedging your bets. Sometimes it's just the smart way to go about things.
My parents "forced" me to do such a "half commitment" by going for a media engineering degree instead of a music degree. I had to learn all sorts of stuff and do all sorts of stuff that did not have to do with my dream of composing music for a living. I also did a bunch of projects on the side throughout this time. In the end it helped me a lot to sustain myself until the composition work came in steadily enough.
Knowing that you have something safe to fall back on can also make it easier for you to take big risks later on. Investing just one more year of your life into that could be a clever thing to do. Plenty of well-paid part-time programming gigs out there as well.

So don't beat yourself up if you choose this path. It's not a half commitment, if you have a plan behind it. It's just the slow game.


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## GtrString (Jul 20, 2022)

I would get the degree, at almost any cost. You can use that for a lot more than music, so it will have you covered. That’s not to say you need it to make game music, you don’t. Quit the “good enough” shi*. You just need barebones knowledge to create that shit, but so does a million others, and game music, in particular, is high risk of being relieved by AI composition software. So do music, but do the academics. That will give you long term options.


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## Varishnipu (Jul 20, 2022)

Do the computer science program…the music is made with the computers today…the degree for music is waste of time…always do music with the technology to get the best money in life so you can become the top composer


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## allen-garvey (Jul 20, 2022)

I might be able to offer some perspective, as I have worked as a professional musician and now as a software dev. I majored in composition from a liberal arts college, not intending it as a career, but just because there was nothing else I wanted to study. I was playing gigs around the college with friends and really enjoyed it, which led to me getting a job playing music on cruise ships and doing that for the next 5 years. I ended up going back to school for CS, first to community college and then to Oregon State University's online CS post-bacc program. For the past 5 years or so I've worked as a software dev.

Why did I leave playing music professionally? I was always proud of being a professional musician, but it was never something I planned, just something I fell into. What led me to consider leaving it was looking around and seeing that I was playing with 50-60 year olds, some with distinguished careers, and yet I was doing the same job as them, making about the same kind of money, despite being in my 20s fresh out of college. Also none of them seemed that happy with their lives. Playing music professionally is also not always all that it's cracked up to be, as you don't always get to play the music you enjoy. I imagine it's the same for composition as well, you don't always get to write what you want.

You mentioned some schools, but I would look into online degrees as well, either for CS or composition. Thinkspace has an online media composition degree for around $12K, and they have a taster week for $25 where you can try the program out for a week. You just missed the most recent one, but there should be another one coming up in October or November. I don't think school is a bad choice as long as you can comfortably afford it. You mention "move across the country away from my family and everybody I know to LA, an unfamiliar and intensely expensive area to live, and just grind a dead-end job while hustling and hoping life will work out in the end", but think of how much harder that would be if you have to pay off student loans at the same time.

I would also think about the kind of lifestyle you want to have. As a professional musician you have no insurance, no paid days off, no 401k matching, no guaranteed anything. At least for the first few years you'll have to work long hours for possibly less than minimum wage. You'll be paid to work on your music, but due to budget, time and client constraints it might not be the type of music you enjoy, or as polished as you would like. As I software dev you can make a comfortable living right away with full benefits. As long as you don't have an excessively extravagant lifestyle you can afford all the music equipment you like, go on trips, have a nice car, buy a house. You also have at least some time to work on music after work, though you might not want to, after working at the computer all day, and your brain being tired from developing.

What would do next is to try out both software development and media composition more, to get a better feeling of what they are actually like, and if you enjoy them. Try some Unity tutorials, and make a game with music and sound effects. See if you like the coding or the music or both. Find some clips you can score, either through competitions, the Cue Tube, re-scoring trailers or silent movies and see if you enjoy it. Do some coding tutorials and see if you find it interesting.


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## jonnybutter (Jul 20, 2022)

Hakurosalix said:


> I suppose this is sort of a "duh" question, but where exactly should I find these projects?


I don’t know anything about the world of games so can’t help there, but your advantage would be that you’re willing to do a job for cheap or free. Find a small companies and offer them a great deal, and keep trying. Also not a bad idea to re-score games or films just for practice, although that has the disadvantage of no deadline and no pressure. 

Honestly though, I agree with the commenters above who suggest learning software dev. Almost impossible in the US to make a living creating, and even more so playing, *any* kind of music, including background stuff for tv etc. Be a composer, but have a way to make a living too.


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## chrisphan (Jul 20, 2022)

If you are even remotely interested in CS, go for that.


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## MarkusS (Jul 21, 2022)

As someone who has done both, formal training at an university and "ponding the pavement" I can say that the music studies are very useful in being able to write good music. To do so you need an understanding of how music actually works (including historically), in regards to harmony, melody, rhythm, orchestration. This was especially useful for me since I did have no formal music training as a kid, so university was for me an incredible experience and discovery.

Now, what was said above is true: no one on the market will care about your degrees. Literally no one. All that matters is: can you get the job done or not? It's kind of funny because in the academic world it's exactly the opposite: no one cares what you can do, all that matters is: do you have a degree in it? 

So keep in mind that what you need to be successful as a composer is networking, marketing, selling yourself. A music university in most cases will not teach you marketing so this is something you will have to learn by yourself, ideally by doing.


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## Arbee (Jul 21, 2022)

Speaking from personal experience, don't underestimate how compatible composing music and designing computer code are. That advice was given to me by a career counsellor I consulted in my early thirties. "They are both intellectual creative pursuits, both patterns based mental processes." was the advice I was given. She was right, after fifteen years of pro music I went on to dux my very first programming course and loved it. I suggest it's no accident that so many on this forum seem to straddle these two career areas very comfortably.

Good luck with your journey, I've had three careers and still don't know what I want to do when I grow up. It's tempting to school yourself "until you feel ready" but that's rarely what success looks like. Getting out there amongst it and just doing it helps enormously to clarify the road ahead.


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## Kyle Preston (Jul 21, 2022)

Music is my full time job, but I still dabble in coding for fun. The similarities between the two disciplines are aggressively noticeable when you live it — it helps with Kontakt and various other things, file management, scripting in Logic, etc…

This guy is a fantastic resource for coding if you’re gonna go that route: https://youtube.com/c/TraversyMedia


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