# Can orchestral music be EPIC without ostinatos?



## RobbertZH (Jan 13, 2018)

It seems that especially trailer music is over-realiant on ostinatos to make the music epic sounding. The ostinatos adds forward motion and drive and hence energy to the trailer music. Maybe it is inevitable given the short time of a trailer and the requirements from the film studio. But I find this music also a bit tiresome to listen to.

It is like rock music versus metal music.
I like a compelling and driving rock groove.
But a whole metal CD with (all the time) a relentless high-tempo double-bass drum, I find that too much.

So my question is:

Can orchestral music be EPIC without using ostinatos?

In my opinion it can.

As an example, here you have the cinematic song "Mercy" from the album "Prayer Cycle" from the film and TV composer Jonathan Elias:



The second piece "Strength" of this album is also good example, but I could not find it on youtube.
But you can listen to the whole album on Spotify.

Maybe you also know good examples of such music that is epic without ostinatos? Hopefully for which orchestral scores are available.

And what are your insights what ingredients makes such music epic sounding?
.


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## Paul T McGraw (Jan 13, 2018)

Interesting questions. What exactly is the definition of epic music?


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## Vin (Jan 13, 2018)

Sure.


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## RobbertZH (Jan 13, 2018)

Paul T McGraw said:


> Interesting questions. What exactly is the definition of epic music?



Hmmm ... everybody has probably his/her own definition or idea.

It likely gives you much energy.
It may give you goosebumps.
You may feel "bigger" during listening.

It does not neccesarily have a fast tempo.

It can be uplifting, like the song "Now we are free" from the film "The Gladiator".
By the way, no ostinatos in that song.

And we have trailer music which is often high octane with driving rhythms and ostinatos.
But this post is about epic music with is not based on those two devices.

When I type this and listen to youtube in the background, it automatically switches to music that it guesses I am interested in. Currently "Narnia: Only The Beginning Of The Adventure" plays. It starts light and whymsical (so at the beginning not epic), but it also has parts that are more full and epic (around 3:15).


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## RobbertZH (Jan 13, 2018)

Vin said:


> Sure.
> The Fellowship of the Ring ST-13-The Bridge of Khazad Dum



Indeed almost no use of ostinatos.

But here we still have a driving drum/percussion rhythm prevalent during most of the piece.
Which is in effect also a kind of ostinato, but then with percussion instruments.

Sorry. My mistake of not mentioning that in my original post and subject: 
What I am interested in is examples of music that sound "epic" without relying on ostinatos and/or high energy drums/percussion (groove).


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## gamma-ut (Jan 13, 2018)

I was thinking yes at first, but then I went to source material from the classics that inspired a lot of these motifs like The Battle of Ice from Alexander Nevsky and a couple of Shostakovich symphonies (first movement, 7th; end of final movement 11th, for example) and came to the conclusion it might be hard to avoid. The 11th is interesting in that it uses an almost aleatoric type of ostinato to signal the confusion of the crowd but there is still a solid underlying rhythm. 

If it only needs to be soaring, then you can go to something like the end of the first movement of Walton's first symphony. For action though, the ostinato might be tough to avoid.


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## jeremiahpena (Jan 13, 2018)

Yes. Here's a great example:


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## d.healey (Jan 13, 2018)




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## RiffWraith (Jan 13, 2018)

_Can orchestral music be EPIC without ostinatos and/or high energy drums/percussion (groove)?_

Sure.



 (starts at around 1:11)

There isn't much out there; I am sure many people feel that you MUST have ostinatos and/or high energy drums/percussion in order for the music to be epic, and without either, it's just not epic. Which, I feel is wrong.

Cheers.


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## jeremiahpena (Jan 13, 2018)

James Newton Howard also has some great moments that I would classify as epic that don't use ostinatos
or driving rhythms.




This one goes back and forth a bit.


This (not by JNH) might be stretching the definition of epic a bit. But it's certainly huge and creates the same overwhelming feeling while being the orchestral equivalent of Paulstretch.


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## RobbertZH (Jan 13, 2018)

gamma-ut said:


> If it only needs to be soaring, then you can go to something like the end of the first movement of Walton's first symphony. For action though, the ostinato might be tough to avoid.



Probably it depends and what (mood) you want to convey.
For a battle scene, maybe the drums and the ostinatoes are indeed neccesary.
But I think there are movie scenes that still require "epic" music, but can do without the drums and ostinatos.

Maybe "soaring" is a neccesary part if you want to do epic without driving rhythms and ostinatos.
But then the question arises: what is actually happening musically that it sounds "soaring"?

I get energy from listening to "Nimrod" from Edward Elgar.
But that piece seems to be more soaring then epic.
And yes ... that piece is NOT well suited for a battle scene.
Or maybe it is, if the battle scene is shown in slowmotion. 



But I think that the song "Mercy" from the album "Prayer Cycle" (see the first entry of this post) is actually more then only soaring. For me, it sounds also epic. But of course that depends on your definition of epic.


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## RobbertZH (Jan 13, 2018)

RiffWraith said:


> _Can orchestral music be EPIC without ostinatos and/or high energy drums/percussion (groove)?_
> 
> Sure.
> 
> ...



I think you are right.
It seems like a kind of default requirement and apparently for a composer it is difficult to not conform to that requirement or expectation.

I did not know "Farewell to Earth" from Audiomachine.
Very beautiful and epic piece.


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## d.healey (Jan 13, 2018)

Your question seems to be less about orchestral music and more about orchestral soundtracks. If you have a scene with hugely "epic" action then you probably don't need the music to be "epic" as well, it could do something else (more useful) like convey the emotional state of a character.

We have over a hundred years of film making before the current ostinato trend, there are plenty of scenes of all kinds that would nowadays be scored with a one finger ostinato patch but look back to those days when pictures were scored more elegantly if you want more than an ostinato.


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## RobbertZH (Jan 13, 2018)

jeremiahpena said:


> James Newton Howard also has some great moments that I would classify as epic that don't use ostinatos
> or driving rhythms.
> [/MEDIA]



Thanks for the suggestions.
They are indeed epic sounding.


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## RobbertZH (Jan 13, 2018)

Hopefully, orchestral scores for the pieces mentioned in this post can be bought or found.

And an understanding how to create such music would be very welcome.
What is happening musically that is it has this epic and/or soaring effect?

Some of the pieces in this thread moves highly between dynamics (soft, load) during that piece.
And as a result, playing with your attention.

A certain layering of instruments seem also to contribute how epic or soaring it sounds.


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## RobbertZH (Jan 13, 2018)

d.healey said:


> We have over a hundred years of film making before the current ostinato trend, there are plenty of scenes of all kinds that would nowadays be scored with a one finger ostinato patch but look back to those days when pictures were scored more elegantly if you want more than an ostinato.



Good suggestion.

As ostinatos are so dominant these days (at least in trailer music, maybe less in full scores of movies), I forgot that in older movies, ostinatos are less used, so older movie soundtracks could be an inspiration.


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## RobbertZH (Jan 13, 2018)

Thank you all for adding new suggestions to this post.
I have much listening to do.


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## d.healey (Jan 13, 2018)

Instrument combinations can play a role in "epicness" but it all depends on context, in militaristic pieces a solo trumpet can be both delicate and "epic". Variation in dynamics are I think the main thing that makes music "epic", if it's loud all the time it's not "epic", if it's soft all the time it's not "epic" but if it goes from one to the other at the right moment and at the right tempo it can be very dramatic.


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## MatFluor (Jan 13, 2018)

Just as short thing - in the sense of defining "epic":

As far as I have seen, "epic music" is mostly a specific music style that evolved out of the big soundtracks and trailers. Predominantly ostinatos, drums and choirs.

I completely agree that an "epic feel" is achieved with a variety of things (as e.g. LotR shows nicely), but most tracks in this thread are not "epic music" as the genre apparently is. I'm no expert at all, but that is what I see on countelss tutorials, YouTube accounts and whatnot.

If you talk "epic" as in "feel", pretty much all examples here are great. IF you talk "epic" as in "epic music", it's a different story in my perspective. Yes, it doesn't need ostinatos everytime, but the genre is build on that - as Metal is grounded on distorted guitars. Can a song be "metal" without distorted guitars? Hell yeah, but it's more the exception than the rule.


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## RobbertZH (Jan 13, 2018)

MatFluor said:


> If you talk "epic" as in "feel", pretty much all examples here are great. IF you talk "epic" as in "epic music", it's a different story in my perspective. Yes, it doesn't need ostinatos everytime, but the genre is build on that - as Metal is grounded on distorted guitars.



I think that the "Epic music" labeled as so on youtube, is not really a genre. It is actually trailer music or cinematic music from composers composing for that market or wanting to. I find those cliches of ostinatos, rhythms and large choirs rather limited, due to which many trailers (especially for action movies, etc) sound too similar, which I think is not a good thing. Be different, stand out from the crowd.

Also, I think (but maybe I am wrong), that it is more difficult to create really epic sounding music if you cannot resort to devices like ostinatos and rhythms, but instead have to create the epic mood by other means (melody, harmony, orchestration, dynamics, designing the energy flow of the piece).


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## mac (Jan 13, 2018)

Epic in all senses of the word. The climax at 6 mins gets me every time.


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## jamieboo (Jan 14, 2018)

Strange, I find the genre (as it seems to have become) of 'Epic' music to be essentially UN-epic.
When I think of something that's truly Epic, I think of something enormous, monumental, complex, mythic and - crucially - something utterly untouched by trivial human trends.
'Epic' music of today is utterly on trend.


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## Saxer (Jan 14, 2018)

Epic music (as I understand it as a style) translates rock/pop feeling to the orchestral world. It's based on a division between functions as in a band context. It has a rhythm track (drums), comping patterns (guit, synth), bass parts (basses, power chord guits), pads and melodies or lines.
Ostinatos do the harmonic comping job done by sequence patterns, keyboards or rhythm guitars. Like in pop world there are tracks without it but most have it.


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## Mundano (Jan 14, 2018)

@d.healey which relationship has this video "saving private ryan" with orchestral epic music? i don't hear any music there...


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## d.healey (Jan 15, 2018)

Mundano said:


> @d.healey which relationship has this video "saving private ryan" with orchestral epic music? i don't hear any music there...


It doesn't, it was to go with the comment I made that perhaps when you have a scene that is already "epic" the music can do something different (or be totally absent).


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## aaronventure (Jan 15, 2018)

The most "epic" piece of music that I know of: 4th movement of _Pines of Rome. _Here's my favorite performance:
_

_
It just keeps going, and going, and going.


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## Mundano (Jan 15, 2018)

aaronventure said:


> The most "epic" piece of music that I know of: 4th movement of _Pines of Rome. _Here's my favorite performance:
> _
> 
> _
> It just keeps going, and going, and going.




wooooowww.... perfect!


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## Tfis (Jan 16, 2018)

Nothing is as boring as "epic" music. Which is loud and repetitive.
It shouts in your face, that it has nothing to say.


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## RobbertZH (Jan 16, 2018)

Thanks for all suggestions.



aaronventure said:


> The most "epic" piece of music that I know of: 4th movement of _Pines of Rome._



I have it on CD. Respighi is especially interesting for his orchestration.



Tfis said:


> Nothing is as boring as "epic" music. Which is loud and repetitive.
> It shouts in your face, that it has nothing to say.



You probably mean the trailer-type music based on ostinatos, driving rhythms, etc.
I agree. Initially exciting, but after a while I find it too much
For example, a short time ago "Thomas Bergersen - Huge Christmas Mockup" was posted:
https://vi-control.net/community/threads/thomas-bergersens-huge-christmas-mockup.67658/
It starts softly, but then gets into trailer music territory around 3:37.
Mind you, it still requires much skills to create such music, but it is not my cup of tea.

An epic song from Thomas Bergersen that I do like is "The Hero In Your Heart":



Another beautiful epic "song" is "Mercy" from the album "Prayer Cycle", as you can listen in the first post of this thread.

And also other posters in this thread have posted many suggestions for epic music that are not based on rhythmic devices.

-----

But one question is still unanswered, namely:
how such music gets its epic and/or soaring feel (when ostinatos and driving rhythms are not used)?
What techniques can a composer use? What ingredients makes the music epic and/or soaring?


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## RobbertZH (Jan 16, 2018)

Saxer said:


> Epic music (as I understand it as a style) translates rock/pop feeling to the orchestral world. It's based on a division between functions as in a band context. It has a rhythm track (drums), comping patterns (guit, synth), bass parts (basses, power chord guits), pads and melodies or lines.
> Ostinatos do the harmonic comping job done by sequence patterns, keyboards or rhythm guitars.



Never thought about it this way. Interesting!

But that is only one subgenre of epic sounding music.
You can also sound epic without those "rock" aspects.



Saxer said:


> Like in pop world there are tracks without it but most have it.


Personally I like those rock/pop music (albums, yes ... I am of that age  that bought and listened (and still do) to complete LPs and CDs) that alternate between busy parts and more intimate and quiet parts, sometimes even within one song. Symphonic rock or progressive rock was especially good at that.


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## Perry (Jan 16, 2018)

Paul T McGraw said:


> Interesting questions. What exactly is the definition of epic music?


Hey Paul: I asked the same question in a Composing class. My Professor was a personal student of the great "Jerry Goldsmith" I had a client that made videos for company's in my area. He wanted me to compose something epic for a video of a company that constructed commercial buildings.


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## will_m (Jan 16, 2018)

RobbertZH said:


> It seems that especially trailer music is over-realiant on ostinatos to make the music epic sounding. The ostinatos adds forward motion and drive and hence energy to the trailer music. Maybe it is inevitable given the short time of a trailer and the requirements from the film studio. But I find this music also a bit tiresome to listen to.
> 
> It is like rock music versus metal music.
> I like a compelling and driving rock groove.
> But a whole metal CD with (all the time) a relentless high-tempo double-bass drum, I find that too much.



Short answer, yes absolutely music can be "epic" without ostinatos.

All genres have their staples though (a 12 bar blues for one example). If you listen to a genre that you are not that familiar with I think you tend to hear only these staples, it may also sound very similar. You mention metal using a relentless high tempo double bass drum but there are many metal bands that rarely use that technique. Every genre has people that will use a tried and tested formula and every genre also has people who innovate inside and outside of those restrictions.

You seem to be saying that an ostinato is an easy way of creating epic music and that somehow makes it less valid. One of the more famous ostinatos in film music is John William's ostinato from Jaws, it's just two notes, it couldn't be easier but does it have the desired effect? Most people would say yes.


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## Replicant (Jan 16, 2018)

Ostinatos are probably so pervasive in "epic" music because it's born from writing for samples.

and even now, plenty of sample libraries only contain "long note" and "staccato" note. Like symphobia/orchestral essentials.

With such limited articulations, staccatos are basically the only way to get any real "rhythm" going in the track.

It's also a shortcut to "easy realism" because you don't have to be concerned with how the notes start and end because a staccato sample is pretty straightforward.

That being said, here are some live orchestra and sampled orchestra tracks I consider "epic" that don't rely on ostinato string patterns.





Note that in both cases, the rhythm of the track consists of many different note lengths. Effortless for live players.

Can be a struggle with samples if you don't have marcatos and such.

EDIT: Further, I would say that the real "epic" in most epic tracks comes from the percussion more than anything.


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## Tempfram (Jan 17, 2018)

RobbertZH said:


> But one question is still unanswered, namely:
> how such music gets its epic and/or soaring feel (when ostinatos and driving rhythms are not used)?
> What techniques can a composer use? What ingredients makes the music epic and/or soaring?



Does anyone know an answer to this question?


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## Jerry Growl (Jan 17, 2018)

Tempfram said:


> Does anyone know an answer to this question?





RobbertZH said:


> But one question is still unanswered, namely:
> how such music gets its epic and/or soaring feel (when ostinatos and driving rhythms are not used)?
> What techniques can a composer use? What ingredients makes the music epic and/or soaring?​


Intention & drama. Even 'The Pines' by Respighi wouldn't sound 'epic' if it was played in a galant light-headed smug manner as demanded by e.g. a Mozart symphony. It would be terribly boring if they did. Also, people in time of Mozart would call our modern day 'epic' music loud rubbish with little thematic development and a total absence of frivolous ornaments. They'd hate the total lack of their beloved bel canto in epic music.

Early predecessors of 'epic' style could be found in many Italian Baroque music and again after the classic period with the German Sturm und Drang, folowed by the wider spread Romantic period style.


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## Tempfram (Jan 17, 2018)

Jerry Growl said:


> Intention & drama.
> 
> a galant light-headed smug manner


I asked because this pertains to my recent thread. Can you define these in more technical terms since we are talking about performance?

Thank you.


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## lux (Jan 17, 2018)

I always found this to be absolutely epic


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## I like music (Jan 17, 2018)

Replicant said:


> Ostinatos are probably so pervasive in "epic" music because it's born from writing for samples.
> 
> and even now, plenty of sample libraries only contain "long note" and "staccato" note. Like symphobia/orchestral essentials.
> 
> ...




Can't go wrong with Cutthroat Island. The whole thing is satisfying yet so tiring. So full of energy, the composition as well as the performance. Definitely epic.


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## Jerry Growl (Jan 17, 2018)

> Intention & drama.


 Emotional involvement in musical peformance, that's what I mean for sure.

Usually you'll find an indication at the top of a score: Con fiocco (Feuerig), Agitato (Bewegt), Tempestoso... there are tons of direction indications that demand a performer's emotional involvement to a level beyond the usual. Why? Because the composer had the intention in mind and needs the performer to adapt to this or the whole thing comes apart. It would be like reading a suspense novel in a dull muttering voice.

Combined with a tonal and harmonic and dynamic build-up in structure and orchestration it creates suspense, a sense of urge, etc...Drama! 

Contrast, that helps. But the drama as a whole and as the big picture is put central. All the rest to it is clichés, fashion and taste.

For instance:



Now for that other thing:



> galant light-headed smug manner


As opposed to 'epic' this one may be self-explanatory I hope :

There may be slight anachronism problem with the drummer in this one, but I couldn't get a better sketching example for what I mean. 
In a nutshell: the old french 'Style galante' tried to abstain from emotional involvement and for many decades and all through early 'Classical' period music had to be performed precise and emotionless .


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## I like music (Jan 17, 2018)

Perry said:


> Hey Paul: I asked the same question in a Composing class. My Professor was a personal student of the great "Jerry Goldsmith" I had a client that made videos for company's in my area. He wanted me to compose something epic for a video of a company that constructed commercial buildings.



Your teacher's teacher was Goldsmith? That's amazing.


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## Rohann (Jan 17, 2018)

As mentioned, "epic" has become synonymous with "loud" and "trailer music". If one thinks a piece needs ostinatos to sound epic, one hasn't listened enough to Daphnis and Chloe, or Requiem, or most Williams scores, or Shore's LOTR, etc etc. The list goes on.


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## Tempfram (Jan 17, 2018)

Jerry Growl said:


> Usually you'll find an indication at the top of a score: Con fiocco (Feuerig), Agitato (Bewegt), Tempestoso... there are tons of direction indications that demand a performer's emotional involvement to a level beyond the usual.


What about the soaring aspect?


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## Jerry Growl (Jan 17, 2018)

Tempfram said:


> What about the soaring aspect?



Well isn't it again a result of a performer's emotional intent which usually gets asked for by the composer? Conducting remarks such as Con Brio, molto vibrato,...Addolorato (with pain) etc
Of course combined with an interesting lyrical, harmonic and dynamic score.

There is an interesting musical term glossary over here. More than half of these terms are just about that: Asking the performer to adapt emotional intent for the effect it has on the sound. That's how a composer vaguely asks for a performance to achieve the sound as intended. But of course, it's really open to interpretation.

When using samples we cannot alter (or perhaps a little) the intent of the performance of the indvidual samples. So to achieve a certain emotional effect we must select the samples based on the intent used by the performers as they were recorded and described. For instance, Hollywood Strings offer the 'Emotional' patches. 8Dio Adagio & Agitato are just all about the emotional intent. But obviously you cannot change the emotional colour using samples as much the same way a live group of string players can (not even close).

So perhaps as an answer to your question from the VI point of view the soaring aspect would be achieved by selecting the right set of samples that display the emotional intent that you are looking for with your score, combined with a score that has the right clichés, rhythm, harmony, melody and dynamics that translate the picture in mind (or on screen).

I realise there will be far better composers out here that can elaborate on the clichés, the rhythmic structure, the harmonic functions and the right sort of melody building. You can also read about functional harmony, orchestration, etc. These books will try to display a set of rules that you can use, but upon closer study all the great composers seem to try to break those rules at every corner.


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## Tempfram (Jan 18, 2018)

Thanks for that.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jan 18, 2018)

Tfis said:


> Nothing is as boring as "epic" music. Which is loud and repetitive.
> It shouts in your face, that it has nothing to say.



Actually I feel most of the time the same, though exceptions excluded as there are few approaches which try to be epic but sophisticated as well. Actually I like some of the 2StepsFhell Music which is epic but has actually something to say. But I get your point as the vast majority just bangs on drums and ostinatos but have unfortunately at least nothing interesting to say.


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## Jerry Growl (Jan 18, 2018)

> Nothing is as boring as "epic" music. Which is loud and repetitive.
> It shouts in your face, that it has nothing to say.





AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Actually I feel most of the time the same, ... the vast majority just bangs on drums and ostinatos but have unfortunately at least nothing interesting to say.


That's not epic. That's punk. In a fancy new dress. Except they did have something to say. Not that it helped.


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## Ilko Birov (Jan 18, 2018)

Modern orchestral music can most definitely be "epic" sans the ostinati. 
The "hybrid orchestral" genre has many good examples of this.
Check out ES Posthumus: 
Or the Corner Stone Cues label.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jan 18, 2018)

Jerry Growl said:


> That's not epic. That's punk. In a fancy new dress. Except they did have something to say. Not that it helped.


Oh, I must have forgot that!


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## Jerry Growl (Jan 18, 2018)

So let's kick the ball back in the center. Apart from 'Ostinato' what other techniques or clichés are prime for 'epic' music?
(Whether it's epic punk or epic symphonic poetry)


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## Replicant (Jan 18, 2018)

Jerry Growl said:


> So let's kick the ball back in the center. Apart from 'Ostinato' what other techniques or clichés are prime for 'epic' music?
> (Whether it's epic punk or epic symphonic poetry)



Line cliches, i VI VII progressions, pedal tones, solo female singers, "power chords", are all also pretty common.



AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Actually I feel most of the time the same, though exceptions excluded as there are few approaches which try to be epic but sophisticated as well. Actually I like some of the 2StepsFhell Music which is epic but has actually something to say. But I get your point as the vast majority just bangs on drums and ostinatos but have unfortunately at least nothing interesting to say.



Personally, I find phrasing like this to be the height of musical snobbery. It's right up there with guitarists criticizing — all while neglecting the individual's obvious skill — someone like Yngwie for lacking "feeling" in their playing, but can't describe exactly what "feeling" entails; lack of slow vibratos and bends, I assume.

What does it even mean when a piece of music "has something to say"? Exactly what criteria, with any sort of objectivity, exists to make a judgement of whether a tune has something "interesting" to say. Do you mean lacking in melody or something?

Because as far as I can tell, when people say stuff like this, they really mean to say "I don't like this particular style of music and consider it culturally and intellectually inferior to my tastes".


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## Rodney Money (Jan 18, 2018)

Pa...llllease, ostinatos are babies compared to the real epicness in rhythm, the tremolo:


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## Greg (Jan 18, 2018)

A more minimalist "epic" cue that I love 

Everyone will have their own opinion because the most important quality of epic is the effect of the emotional idea, which is different for everyone.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jan 18, 2018)

Replicant said:


> Line cliches, i VI VII progressions, pedal tones, solo female singers, "power chords", are all also pretty common.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, definitely agreed but that is and was not my intention. Sure I am not a big fan of the current trends in epic music. Having said that: I am still liking the older generation of epic music which came years ago (like 2 Steps f. Hell) like I said in my last comment. And I don´t see myself of a snobbish elitist, absolutely not. I think music can be simple and interesting.


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## Saxer (Jan 19, 2018)

Still a communication missmatch between "epic" as an adjective and "epic" as a name for the style called "epic". Same happens with "swing" as a musical feeling and "swing" as a style of the swing era in the 20th to 40th of the last century. Or "smooth" as a description or "smooth jazz" as a style. Completely different things and this thread is talking at cross purposes.


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## Replicant (Jan 19, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Yes, definitely agreed but that is and was not my intention. Sure I am not a big fan of the current trends in epic music. Having said that: I am still liking the older generation of epic music which came years ago (like 2 Steps f. Hell) like I said in my last comment. And I don´t see myself of a snobbish elitist, absolutely not. I think music can be simple and interesting.



Apologies, it just really seemed that way in text/writing.

But I do agree; I as well prefer the 2 Steps From Hell style.



Saxer said:


> Still a communication missmatch between "epic" as an adjective and "epic" as a name for the style called "epic". Same happens with "swing" as a musical feeling and "swing" as a style of the swing era in the 20th to 40th of the last century. Or "smooth" as a description or "smooth jazz" as a style. Completely different things and this thread is talking at cross purposes.



I think that's a testament to the fact that "epic" as a style is somewhat of a vague thing. I get the sense that, given anything I know from listening to that music and its history, the adjective is there precisely because that was the only way people could think to describe it.

Because this big, grandiose sound with pop-ish arrangements and huge percussion is pretty much the only common thread. Choir, like in 2 Steps From Hell used to be standard, but I've noticed fewer tracks these days use them. In fact, a lot of purely sound design trailer music is labeled "epic" music now.

So I could just as easily ask "Can epic music really be epic without _choir_?" I think most of us here would agree that it can be, and I don't see why ostinato is any exception. 

In _my opinion_, "epic" isn't any more a genre than "hair metal" was. Consider the latter for a moment. How do you define it as anything other than "Pop-leaning rock/metal music with a shared aesthetic sense"? As that's really all it was. Poison did not sound like Motley Crue who did not sound like Bon Jovi who were different still from the heavier bands in the early 90s like XYZ or Skid Row. Despite this, they are all still called "glam" or "hair metal" and that has never been greatly disputed by both fans and music journalists alike.


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## tack (Jan 19, 2018)

I daresay if you strip away the ostinati and the choirs and the 20 player horn ensembles, you have a much better shot at making interesting music.

I don't really listen to this genre of music, but when I do, I much prefer it's in the form of a Mike Verta reaction video. You really feel like you're on a journey with Mike through his many stages of suppressed rage. Legitimate laugh-out-loud moment at 6:08:28.

(Apologies if that happens to be your piece under review. )


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## Rohann (Jan 19, 2018)

Replicant said:


> Personally, I find phrasing like this to be the height of musical snobbery. It's right up there with guitarists criticizing — all while neglecting the individual's obvious skill — someone like Yngwie for lacking "feeling" in their playing, but can't describe exactly what "feeling" entails; lack of slow vibratos and bends, I assume.


I agree with this part, not that it's snobbery, but that it paints a whole genre in an unfairly broad stroke.

This however:


> What does it even mean when a piece of music "has something to say"? Exactly what criteria, with any sort of objectivity, exists to make a judgement of whether a tune has something "interesting" to say. Do you mean lacking in melody or something?
> 
> Because as far as I can tell, when people say stuff like this, they really mean to say "I don't like this particular style of music and consider it culturally and intellectually inferior to my tastes".


A piece of music "has something to say" when it has a melody, or at least a decent chord progression transitioning beyond a single 3-chord cadence, and actually _goes _somewhere. As Mike says, if you say the same thing over and over (simply adding instruments vertically), you're not really "saying" anything. You're just repeating yourself. And it's _really _easy to continually do this and drag out 3 chords and a repetitive, boring melody over 5 minutes _over and over _by doing nothing other than adding noise and loudness. It's cliche, it's boring as hell at this point, and it doesn't have anything to say (or at least not anything new/compelling to say).
Now certainly not the _entire genre _of "epic" music is this way. But a lot of the more amateur and mainstream plotless action film stuff tends to be, because it's _way _easier to write like this than to write stuff that sounds good even without the production (I say this from experience).

Similar to your example above (re: Yngwie):


He talks about how he notices in his own playing that when he doesn't have something interesting to say, he just plays fast, and that it gets really boring if the music isn't saying anything. Substitute "fast" for "loud" in VI composing, and ditto.


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## Guffy (Jan 20, 2018)

If you can look past the snares, this one is a great no-ostinato track.


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## Jerry Growl (Jan 20, 2018)

Interesting question I received (off the main thread, but on-topic) by @Tempfram , thought we might share and hear what you guys think:


Tempfram said:


> So what parameters are the articulations you mentioned supposed to change? The spectral envelope? (the con brio etc...)
> 
> Thanks.


In sampled instruments there aren't nearly as much conducting parameters available as there are in real life.

If you gather a group of string players, say 4 first violins, 3 second violins, 2 violas and 2 cellos, you will notice that you can have them play a short composition in several different ways. Even in the same tempo at the same acoustic sound level, you can vary the way it is played in either hugely different or subtle different ways.

If you ask those players to play your composition for instance 'con brio'. they will tend to put more emotional energy in their playing. They will have to put more action on the bow, more vibrato, more bow pressure but also being more involved they will be less precise, but mainly they will individually add emotion that adds up to the overall sound. They will bring variety in the sound, little individual movements and variations that keep the overall sound interesting to the ear.

If you ask to play them 'Treurig' (sad) they will perhaps 'drag' more. The attack times of each individual player will vary as much as that you get an uneven start of every bow ( an uneven ADSR enveloppe if you will for each individual player of the section) so that the whole of the sound of the string group gets a hugely different atmosphere.
Also the slur times increase and differ for every player, so that you get a really uneven slur between notes, adding to the dramatic effect. Possibly other tonal variations i forgot to mention, too.

With Samples you can change the attack, slur, vibrato, bow change, dynamics etc (depending on the library) of a sampled group ( for instance Hollywood Strings, 1st Violins Powerful Legatos with slur). But you can no longer change the individual variations to these parameters of every single player in that group. All these little variations make it subtly different and so hugely interesting.

So for epic orchestral passages an adapted set of sounds is necessary. A Johann Strauss Jr. waltz will never sound as supposed to with e.g. OT MA (too muscled & bulky) sounds and vice versa an epic trailer with only HS non-vibrato patches might just not work.


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## Kaufmanmoon (Jan 20, 2018)

The longer the note....the more dread


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## RobbertZH (Jan 20, 2018)

Thank you all for your insights
and also for the music suggestions (e.g. did not know and liked the "Men of Honor" and "V of Vendata").

---

I have no formal training in music. I have (for example) difficulties identifying the chords (or harmony) being played. With that in mind, here is my layman analysis of "Mercy" (to discover some of the possible aspects that makes music sound epic or soaring):




Structure is non-song like. No verse, chorus or bridge. So apparently, a predicable structure (as is common in pop/rock songs and also some classical music forms) is NOT required.

Dynamics that varies widely during the whole piece (a bit like waves on the beach)

How are these dynamics being varied:
Varying the amount and combinations of instruments (including vocals)
To increase energy, the (temporary) melody line is played by higher strings and choir in unison (and/or octaves) around 1:34
Emotional due to the expression of the solo voices (male and female)

Thundering percussion used sparingly, more like accents (and not a driving rhythm)

Counter melodies or counterpoint writing

Maybe I am mistaken, but I believe that there is no brass in this piece (only strings, woodwinds, choir, solo vocals), so apparently brass is NOT required to create an epic mood

Yes … in this piece we have a choir 

From the very beginning the piece (even while it is more calm) it creates an expectation or anticipation of energy or tension later on. But why do I expect that? Am I used to the idiom, so that I instinctively "know" that energy will build up later on? 

I have no idea what is being sung (I do not know the language.
This means that the epicness is NOT influenced by the lyrics.

PS: The female vocals are by Allanis Morisette
Concerning building up anticipation, a nice example is "The Dead of The Night" from the "Tarot Suite" from Mike Batt.




Drone by low strings combined with a high note on violins and a melody on tremolo strings. I suspect that the drone is an important aspect of creating tension.

It does have a continues ostinato, but it is more interesting than usual, as it is like a second longer (counter) melody

I think that many lines (middle, high) are played in unison (or octaves) for a greater power in the sound (for example the string melody around 1:05)

The way it is orchestrated (e.g. which instruments are playing in unison) creates a warm and very full sound. I think that adding woodwinds to the strings makes it sounds warm.

Although pizzicato bass plays a rhythmic role, I think that it only plays a small role in the (subdued) epicness of this piece.

By the way, Mike Batt is a good example of a composer that imposes a pop/rock idiom on orchestral music.


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## RobbertZH (Jan 20, 2018)

Jerry Growl said:


> So perhaps as an answer to your question from the VI point of view the soaring aspect would be achieved by selecting the right set of samples that display the emotional intent that you are looking for with your score, combined with a score that has the right clichés, rhythm, harmony, melody and dynamics that translate the picture in mind (or on screen).



I have emotional sounding strings, like those from 8dio, and it helps. But you need more (as you said) and use melody, harmony and orchestration in a certain way to make it actually soaring.


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## RobbertZH (Jan 20, 2018)

Rohann said:


> As Mike says, if you say the same thing over and over (simply adding instruments vertically), you're not really "saying" anything. You're just repeating yourself. And it's _really _easy to continually do this and drag out 3 chords and a repetitive, boring melody over 5 minutes _over and over _by doing nothing other than adding noise and loudness. Now certainly not the _entire genre _of "epic" music is this way. But a lot of the more amateur and mainstream plotless action film stuff tends to be, because it's _way _easier to write like this than to write stuff that sounds good even without the production (I say this from experience).



This will be my new year resolution:
To write a piece that is not relying (to much) on repetition.
And I think to write it will be more difficult, as I need to employ and increase my knowledge about melody, counterpoint, orchestration (rather then letting ostinatos and rhythms create the excitement).


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## dcoscina (Jan 20, 2018)

This is epic. No ostinatos.


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## Will Blackburn (Feb 1, 2018)

I would consider this epic. One of my favourite scores ever.


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## Perry (Feb 13, 2018)

I like music said:


> Your teacher's teacher was Goldsmith? That's amazing.


Yes I sucked his brain dry.


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## I like music (Feb 18, 2018)

Perry said:


> Yes I sucked his brain dry.



Fortunate bastard.


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