# Omnisphere HW -> no automation with Hardware Synth ?!



## Sebmo007 (Jan 22, 2019)

Hello,
I am using Omnisphere (latest version) with the Total Integration Feature. My Hardware Synth is Prophet Rev2, which got an 'outstanding' recommendation from Spectrasonics for using it this way. BUT I kind of can't believe it that it is NOT possible (for me?) to use the Hardware Synth to write Automation in my DAW (Logic 10.4.4). Is it true? I followed the intructions many times... . And if - this is such a crucial missing feature... . 
Is anyone out there using Omnisphere this way and IS able to use the Hardware Synth to write Automation in his/her DAW ?!
Best, Seb


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## benbinary (Jan 24, 2019)

I just got Omnisphere and am looking into this too

Is it possible to use these synths/emulations without the hardware?


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## Sebmo007 (Jan 24, 2019)

benbinary said:


> I just got Omnisphere and am looking into this too
> 
> Is it possible to use these synths/emulations without the hardware?


Yes.


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## benbinary (Jan 24, 2019)

Have you tried automation with a midi controller or (mouse) Daw automation?

That's strange if the hardware is the only automation that doesn't work :(


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## Sebmo007 (Jan 24, 2019)

In the meantime I also got a response from Spectrasonics, saying that it is NOT possible to write automation using the Hardware Controller! I really don’t understand how to call something ‘Total Hardware Integration’ and not being able to do such basic and crucial task...


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## Sebmo007 (Jan 24, 2019)

benbinary said:


> Have you tried automation with a midi controller or (mouse) Daw automation?
> 
> That's strange if the hardware is the only automation that doesn't work :(


Just to clarify. You can use automation with omnisphere inside your DAW, but you can’t write automation with the Hardware Controller in ‘Total Integration’. You could f.e. Use another midi controller to write automation, but this misses the whole point of using a synth in ‘Integration Mode’... at least for me.
Technically to make this Integration possible you need to setup the Hardware Synth to send /recieve NRPN data, not midi controller, and Omnisphere / Logic X is not recognizing it as automation data. Unfortunately. (The vst/au editor by codeknobs, using the same NRPN Setting can do it!) so I have hope that Spectrasonics is getting it sorted in a future update.


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## benbinary (Jan 25, 2019)

Sebmo007 said:


> Just to clarify. You can use automation with omnisphere inside your DAW, but you can’t write automation with the Hardware Controller in ‘Total Integration’. You could f.e. Use another midi controller to write automation, but this misses the whole point of using a synth in ‘Integration Mode’... at least for me.
> Technically to make this Integration possible you need to setup the Hardware Synth to send /recieve NRPN data, not midi controller, and Omnisphere / Logic X is not recognizing it as automation data. Unfortunately. (The vst/au editor by codeknobs, using the same NRPN Setting can do it!) so I have hope that Spectrasonics is getting it sorted in a future update.



So that also rules out Logic as the problem if it didn't play nice with NRPN


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 25, 2019)

Sebmo007 said:


> Just to clarify. You can use automation with omnisphere inside your DAW, but you can’t write automation with the Hardware Controller in ‘Total Integration’. You could f.e. Use another midi controller to write automation, but this misses the whole point of using a synth in ‘Integration Mode’... at least for me.
> Technically to make this Integration possible you need to setup the Hardware Synth to send /recieve NRPN data, not midi controller, and Omnisphere / Logic X is not recognizing it as automation data. Unfortunately. (The vst/au editor by codeknobs, using the same NRPN Setting can do it!) so I have hope that Spectrasonics is getting it sorted in a future update.



The main excitement for me regarding Hardware Integration is programming, whereas the main excitement regarding NKS is performance. They are two distinct jobs that only really have a small overlap, so I don't really agree that its "the whole point" of Total Integration. But...

The good news is as far as I can see, there actually IS a way of doing this, at least in Cubase. Along with Saxer, I too will shortly be a lucky MS20iC owner, thanks to the wonders of eBay. Let's say it has 40 physical controls. What I need to do as a one-off job, is adjust each of these in turn and Enable Host Automation within Omni for every one. Within Cubase, these are now neatly labelled as sources within the track's Quick Controls settings, so I can easily choose any physical control I have and enable it for automation.







So what I did in the image above is right click a bunch of random controls in Omni and Enabled Host Automation. You can see that these first 8 have auto-populated in the Quick Controls window - Part level, Waveform shape, Course Pitch, Filter Cutoff etc. It has 512 parameters available, including effects which is handy as some hardware makes use of effects, so there's no practical limit on that side. You're stuck with only automating any given 8 per midi channel, but of course you can choose which ones per patch. One little gotcha to look out for, some of the physical controls in some hardware controllers actually affect multiple parameters in Omni, so you'd need to set those separately for automation which is a bit of a pain. The vast majority of controls are 1:1, however.

Once everything is done, I can save this as a default multi using a Midi Learn Template - https://support.spectrasonics.net/manual/Omnisphere2/25/en/topic/concepts-automation-page04 , so each time I open Omnisphere its all mapped and ready to go. So the path to automation is - Hardware - Omnisphere - DAW, and it doesn't matter whether its a Midi CC or NRPN that's being used between the hardware and Omni.

I don't know about Logic etc, is there something that can achieve the same results?


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 25, 2019)

As an addendum to the above, I just tried it on Pro Tools and it works, albeit with one pro and one con. The con is that no parameters get names, you're stick with generic numbers starting from zero, you'd need to jot them down or something which is a bit rubbish. The pro is that unlike Cubase, you have no limits on how many you use. On balance Cubase is a lot better in practice, I'd imagine.

You also need to add however many parameters you need in the Plugin Automation window, but you could do this once and save as a Track Preset (Track Presets are superb in Pro Tools):






EDIT - Parameters in other plugins such as Massive show up named correctly in Pro Tools. How it works in Cubase is that by default it shows the same bald numbers as Pro Tools above, then once you have added a parameter to Host Automation, the new name is available in Quick Controls. That's the part of the process which doesn't seem to work in PT - this could be something Spectrasonics support might be able to help with.


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## Sebmo007 (Jan 25, 2019)

Guy Rowland said:


> I don't know about Logic etc, is there something that can achieve the same results?


Yes, Logic X is handling Automation excatly the same, also labelling etc. . But I wasn’ t saying automation is not working, it actually works really good, IF you are using a standard midi controller, NKS, etc., BUT not if you are using a hardware synthesizer in Total Integration Mode which I found a bit frustrating....


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 25, 2019)

Sebmo007 said:


> Yes, Logic X is handling Automation excatly the same, also labelling etc. . But I wasn’ t saying automation is not working, it actually works really good, IF you are using a standard midi controller, NKS, etc., BUT not if you are using a hardware synthesizer in Total Integration Mode which I found a bit frustrating....



I don't see why it would be any different? I've showed how you can set it up as a default multi, so all the parameters are automatable as you adjust them on the hardware. The only extra step (once set up as a one off) is just to choose which ones you want to automate.

????


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## Sebmo007 (Jan 25, 2019)

Like I wrote earlier, to make Total Integration work you have to setup the Hardware Synthesizer (in my case Prophet Rev2) to send/receive NRPN Controller Data, not standard midi controller data. Omnisphere needs this protocol for communication with the Hardware. But by doing so, the Automation is not working anymore in Logic X.


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 25, 2019)

Sebmo007 said:


> Like I wrote earlier, to make Total Integration work you have to setup the Hardware Synthesizer (in my case Prophet Rev2) to send/receive NRPN Controller Data, not standard midi controller data. Omnisphere needs this protocol for communication with the Hardware. But by doing so, the Automation is not working anymore in Logic X.



As a generality, that's not correct. Some synths (such as the SH101) are Midi CC exclusive, while others actually use both protocols. Some are entirely NRPN. Omni can handle all these. I know - I've programmed both from an Android tablet running Lemur to control Omni 2.5's hardware profiles. (I understand with 2.6 it even works on an original Juno 106, and that protocol is SysEx!)

But I remain confused at your concern here. Cubase or Pro Tools couldn't care less what protocol it uses, that's between Omni and the hardware. The automation side of it is completely standard, and will work exactly the same regardless of the protocol being used, unless Logic works in a very different way to Pro Tools or Cubase.


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## jamwerks (Jan 25, 2019)

When and if Spectrasonics come out with their own controller, and will work perfectly


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## Sebmo007 (Jan 25, 2019)

Guy Rowland said:


> But I remain confused at your concern here. ...


Well let’s say I’m just very disappointed that I can’t use the Hardware Controller in Total Integration Mode for any Automation recording (in Logic X). Spectrasonics replied and confirmed to me that it is not possible at the moment. The feature (of using A Hardware Controller to write Automation) is crucial to my workflow for many years. Actually it makes the Total Integration Feature useless for me right now. Maybe just, but I doubt it. And something well worth pointing out.


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 25, 2019)

Well Seb, I just don't get it. You CAN do exactly this. I've posted step by step instructions and screenshots from 2 DAWs that show that it is in fact perfectly possible, and certainly in Cubase it will work very well indeed.

You have not commented on any of it, which does make me think I'm rather wasting my time here.

I presume what Spectrasonics mean is that you can't directly automate from the hardware, but have to go via Omnisphere (might be worth you posting their correspondence?). There are some cases where this is a pain as I've already said, as a small proportion of controls do more than one thing simultaneously. Otherwise the whole issue is moot. You just save your midi profile in the default Omni Multi, then enable anything you need to automate in the DAW. You can then use your controller to write automation, just as you wish.


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## Sebmo007 (Jan 26, 2019)

Guy Rowland said:


> Well Seb, I just don't get it. You CAN do exactly this. I've posted step by step instructions and screenshots from 2 DAWs that show that it is in fact perfectly possible, and certainly in Cubase it will work very well indeed.
> 
> You have not commented on any of it, which does make me think I'm rather wasting my time here.
> 
> I presume what Spectrasonics mean is that you can't directly automate from the hardware, but have to go via Omnisphere (might be worth you posting their correspondence?). There are some cases where this is a pain as I've already said, as a small proportion of controls do more than one thing simultaneously. Otherwise the whole issue is moot. You just save your midi profile in the default Omni Multi, then enable anything you need to automate in the DAW. You can then use your controller to write automation, just as you wish.


Hi Guy, I think we misunderstood each other. Like it is stated in the topic and in my replies, I excatly mean that by saying 'using the Hardware Controller to write Automation...' (Maybe I should have used the word 'directly' to make it more clear. This is what is NOT possible when using Total Integration And please try it ones you have the Hardware to see what I mean... . Of course I know how to make standard Automation work (and save it as default...), I am using it for 10+years this way with various Hardware Controller, BUT not in Total Integration Mode.
And I really don't wanted to waste your time.


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## Greg (Jan 28, 2019)

Wow! Thanks for the heads up.


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 28, 2019)

Seb - I'm not sure how they could do any direct writing from your hardware. How could that work?

As it is, we have perfectly good tools for all this. As mentioned we can map the parameters we need, and choose the automation to write. Just not really an issue imo.


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## Replika (Feb 4, 2019)

Guy Rowland - Do you know how to see the mappings that Spectrosonics did for each hardware profile? In other words, do you know if it is possible to determine what is going on under the hood for each knob in each profile. As you say, sometimes they map more than one thing to a knob. Examples of this can be seen in Erics Superbooth 2018 demo (See comments below). Like you said, Sometimes Spectrasoncis folks are using NRPN other times CC's etc. It would be nice to be able to duplicate some of your favorite modulations by cherry picking the hardware profiles and recreating them with generic hardware.


Adding Vibrato on the Sub 37 instantiates two LFOs in Omnisphere's MOD Matrix at time mark 19.58.

Turning the Multidrive knob on the Sub 37 instantiates a distortion effect, turns it on and adjusts the level as you turn the knob up on the Sub 37 at Mark 21:00 in the video.


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## Guy Rowland (Feb 4, 2019)

Replika - yes, it’s all possible and mappable. Two tools - search for the hardware manufacturers manual and their midi implementation table, which has all the numbers used in hardware. Then Omni itself will help you - load a hardware profile, go to Utility and click Show Midi Learns. It will spit out an incredibly long and mind-boggling list as a webpage. If you save this as html and load it into a spreadsheet, it’s easier to manage. There’s hundreds - even thousands - of parameters, but that’s for 8 layers, so you can delete 2-7 if your happy to just use ch1 for this purpose. This will tell you any Omni-specific tweaks and mods.

So far I’ve done the JU-06, VP-330, OB-6, SH-01a and the Moog Voyager and their up on the Midi Designer Pro website. There are a few more from others that work with existing or coming profiles. Think I might just try the Sub 37 next, looks pretty straightforward - I’m not a fan of using a tablet to do the really complex stuff like the Prophet X or D-50 as you end up with tiny controls over 10 pagers, and there’s no fun in that for me!


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## Guy Rowland (Feb 5, 2019)

Here's how that Moog Voyager looks. 2 pages of controls - https://mididesigner.com/qa/7249/moog-voyager-omnisphere-2-5-1-1-update


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## Replika (Feb 5, 2019)

This is great information. Thank you for your fantastic response. Funny you should mention the D-50, I was thinking that the D-50s PG-1000 looked like it would be a candidate for Mididesigner if you only wanted to replicate the sliders. Perhaps that is a IPAD Pro project (I don't have one either). I got excited when I saw the D-50 profile in Omnishere 2.6 since I had wanted to get the Roland Cloud version of the D-50 but decided it was not worth the $200 that the Roland Cloud would cost for a year to get it permanently in your collection. Always wanted a D-50 to do Jarre covers et al.


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## Guy Rowland (Feb 5, 2019)

Replika said:


> Always wanted a D-50 to do Jarre covers et al.



Did Jarre ever use a D-50? I’ll confess I lost interest after Zoolook which was out before the D-50 I think. I’ll forever associate Jarre with the ye olde ARP2600, VCS synthi A et al...

Anyway I digress. If you search on the Midi Designer Pro forum, there’s a very comprehensive D-50 all done, or rather it’s the PG1000 programmer. An iPad Pro sure would help there...


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## Replika (Feb 6, 2019)

Guy Rowland said:


> Did Jarre ever use a D-50? I’ll confess I lost interest after Zoolook which was out before the D-50 I think. I’ll forever associate Jarre with the ye olde ARP2600, VCS synthi A et al.


 He apparently made a lot of use of the D-50, In the link below you can see a list of sounds organized by the album that they were used on. The list includes the syx file with all patches and also where they came from (what D-50 disk / bank etc). You can also hear the sounds in the video link on the same page and say "Oh yea, so that was a D-50 making that sound..." http://www.thhe.dk/Roland_D-50.htm 

In regard to more recent Jarre music, I will post a response later with a couple of examples of his new stuff that I think you may appreciate (or not). I agree with you though, the older stuff ARP and VCS just get into your soul when you here those sounds. 

Really looking forward to the D-50 profile in 2.6 although I think Eric said there are only around 400 new patches spread over all of the new profiles to there may not be to many... But I digress right along with you..


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## Guy Rowland (Feb 6, 2019)

Ah, interesting link, thanks. Funnily enough it was the Revolutions album that did me in, I couldn't understand how he'd gone from this incredible pioneer to... that...

The thing with the D-50 and Omni 2.6 is that all (I think Eric said "all") the original D-50 presets are actually soundsources, not new Omni patches. Obviously its a pretty trivial thing to then convert them to your own Omni patches. So those presets won't count towards that 400 tally, which is nice.


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## Replika (Feb 6, 2019)

GUY - As promised, here are some examples of Jarre’s newer stuff that I thought you might appreciate as a fan of his older stuff. 


Oxygene Part 3 came out on 2nd December 2016


He used some of our older favorite synths that we have already mentioned in this thread, most notably the ARP 2500, 2600, Eminent 310 etc…. and a lot of newer stuff including soft synths including *Omnisphere* (mentioned here to at least try and tie this back into the topic of the thread lol). The list of synths is quite interesting and can be found here.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygène_3


I particularly like tracks…….


*1 (Oxygene 14)*



Nice cover done here in FL Studio




And


*4 (Oxygene 17)*



Nice cover done here in FL Studio (Done very well and close to the original)


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## Guy Rowland (Feb 6, 2019)

Soz - does nothing for me, just feels very generic. I did quite like some of his Electronica collabs though.

Anyway, I think we better head back to Omni-land. It is nice having some of his AKS stuff in the Moog tribute library, mind.


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## matatablack (Oct 16, 2019)

Hi Guy Rowland, Sebmo and everyone,
I have the exactly same problem, with some slightly differences.
Sorry for my english if i make any mistake, greetings from Argentina!

I just wanted to know if anyone solved this problem so far

I have Omni 2.6. Prophet Rev2 doing Hardware Integration. CodeKnobs Editor (that works as intended, great editor!). 
The slightly differences with the OP i mentioned are:
- im using Ableton Live as DAW
- "I can" write some automation in my midi clips from my Rev2 via Omnisphere. When i hit record in daw and move some knobs, it records (midi) clip modulation envelopes in "Data entry", "Data entry fine" and some NRPN layer that it seems standard MIDI protocol try to detect like lsb and msb. 
It works well if after recording i do not touch any other knob.

After reading this entire thread, first of all, hats down for the knowledge you guys have! Thanks for sharing. Second, im not sure if you Guy could reproduce the OP problem. Maybe it were a missunderstanding. 

Just an attemp to explain the situation (same as the OP)

I have host automation enable for some parameters. Lets say filter cutoff. 
If i move the knob with my mouse, it moves in DAW and if i move the parameter in Ableton, it moves in Omnisphere. 
If i map midi CC from a controller to Omnisphere, works as intended also.
If i enable hardware integration and control Omnisphere with my Rev2, and moves the Cutoff, moves in Omni but not in Ableton. Therefore i cant write automation from my Rev2 to daw. 
The codeknobs editor can do that.

I can upload some screenshots to help clarify what im trying to say. 
Also I think that with some midi translator and the "Show Midi Learns" file maybe we can capture some NRPN messages and translate them to corresponding CC, send to a virtual port to sync host automation. (at least basics 1:1 mappings).
What do you think? 

I would love to hear any information or thoughts for you guys!
Thank you so much!
Matias


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## matatablack (Oct 18, 2019)

*I found a way*, not the best, has some limitations (in my case mostly from Ableton), but it works. 

You can record the automation from the hardware using the codeKnobs editor.

The editor does some neat work translating the NRPN that receives from the synth to standard midi for the host to understand and save the automation.
Then if you play the midi clip with the recorded automation, it goes through the editor, being translated to NRPN again, then go to the synth input, right?

If you can capture the NRPN the editor is sending to the synth and loopback it to Omnisphere it works.

In my case i needed to use to midi interfaces, doing all with virtual ports or with USB didn't work for me. 

My routing is:

Rev2 midi OUT (nrpn, all config set to work with editor) -> audio interface midi input -> codeKnobs editor IN. (with this pipe i can persist the automation in DAW)

codeKnobs editor OUT -> audio interface midi out -> HERE GOES THE NRPN I WANT TO CAPTURE so -> midisport 2x2 IN -> midipipe to capture those messages and replicate those to a virtual port -> midisport 2x2 OUT -> Rev2 midi IN.

The midipipe "midi thru" virtual port i created is set as input of Omnisphere.

I dont know why i just cant loopback the audio interface midi out to midipipe, to avoid using the midisport, o why i cant do all of this with just usb. This setup worked for me. 

Thanks, hope it helps!


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## matatablack (Oct 21, 2019)

Just for the record, in case anyone is interested, i've managed to do all that routing virtually, via usb (much faster response), with Bidule (standalone). Great app.


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## chimuelo (Dec 13, 2019)

I’m using Bidule and a Physis K4 and can do anything I want in Omnisphere.
I love EPiano layers and got some great ideas from a Keyscape Creative using Omni’s FX.
I’m a Hancock, Zawinul addict because of the voicings and FX they used.
Omni is like my Hardware Piano/EPiano module with killer Automation and FX.

My only beef is @ 9 o’clock on cutoff using any filter my expression jumps slightly.
Ive got an FC100, EV5 and FC7.
It does this regardless of pedal wiring, etc.

No biggie, use a re triggered LFO to sweep filters, and wah wah style filters are foot movements that quickly skip over the cutoff/exp flaw.

I actually have all of Herbie Hancocks and Joe Zawinul sounds of Synths and EPS in Omni/Keyscape.
The MXR 90 Phaser is the best phaser in DSP or Native.


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## bitt1997 (Apr 2, 2020)

Sebmo007 said:


> Hello,
> I am using Omnisphere (latest version) with the Total Integration Feature. My Hardware Synth is Prophet Rev2, which got an 'outstanding' recommendation from Spectrasonics for using it this way. BUT I kind of can't believe it that it is NOT possible (for me?) to use the Hardware Synth to write Automation in my DAW (Logic 10.4.4). Is it true? I followed the intructions many times... . And if - this is such a crucial missing feature... .
> Is anyone out there using Omnisphere this way and IS able to use the Hardware Synth to write Automation in his/her DAW ?!
> Best, Seb



UPDATE:
Tried this again today, and:

I was too early, unfortunately...every time you record a new parameter, this is registered with the right name in Ableton (recording to the track where Pro2SE sits, Omni track in Input mode, fed from PlugSE)
However, four other parameters are recorded at the same time




and these seems to be changing always to the latest parameters you recorded.
Changing the actual "Pro2 PLUGSE cutoff" in the recorded clip does nothing. But the MIDI Ctrl 38, that reflects the same movements, does change the cutoff. If I then record some other parameter on top, the cutoff changes will be gone, because MIDI CTLR 38 now only reflects this. So only the last recorded parameter can be changed.

And - for some reason - the transpose slider of the first oscillator in Omni is also always transposed to the very lowest setting, -4800 cents. Always!
So no, this is not working properly...It somehow did work the other day, but that time seems to be over 

Sorry.

Would be good if someone from Spectrasonics could try this out!!

regards

Audun K





Hi, thought I would share this:
I'm using Dave Smith Pro2, and I can now record all movements with the correct parameter names in Ableton (have yet to try in Reaper, but it should work the same way, will test later today). It is done via the plugSE from soundtower.com. Although this plugin has never worked the way they say it should work and you have to set it up slightly different than they want you to, it does record and play back all information from automation without any issues.
Feeding the Omnisphere (with HW profile Pro2 selected) midi input from (in my case)" Pro2 PlugSE" (they also have this plugin for Rev2 and numerous other synths), makes Omni behave just like you would hope: recording all parameters live, and edit and playback of notes and parameter-changes are working!
Big thing, until Spectrasonics (maybe) sort this out internally!!!!
I Ableton Prefs, I have Pro2 set to input track and remote, and no output.
In the plugSE itself, select setting as in the attached picture.
The Pro2 is set to send and receive NRPN, and I have local on.


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## Samuel84 (Oct 29, 2021)

matatablack said:


> Hi Guy Rowland, Sebmo and everyone,
> I have the exactly same problem, with some slightly differences.
> Sorry for my english if i make any mistake, greetings from Argentina!
> 
> ...


Hi there,

Is it still the only way doing Ableton Host Automation with Omnipshere Hardware Integration via Code Knobs or Plug Se? How do you do that? Its such a pitty that Spectrasonics has no way to solve that with ableton together...This would be so much more massive and not only for jamming great...

Best Regards

Samuel


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## Samuel84 (Oct 29, 2021)

matatablack said:


> Just for the record, in case anyone is interested, i've managed to do all that routing virtually, via usb (much faster response), with Bidule (standalone). Great app.


Yes please, let me know. I have a prophet 6 and would love to set it up that host automation works in ableton


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