# Is Berlin Brass good for cinematic composing?



## Ghostlion234 (Oct 5, 2019)

I am fighting on getting a brass sample library for cinematic composing and the samples I have in mind is spitfire symphonic brass or Berlin brass. I am more or less aiming for brass sounds that will be good for scores like Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Fantasmic from Disneyland, and the how to train your dragon series soundtrack. Plus, cinematic composing such as Hans zimmer's scores. Will Berlin brass deliver that?


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## j_kranz (Oct 5, 2019)

Berlin Brass is the bulk of the brass in John Powell’s template (according to his Instagram)... that should answer the question right there 😃


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## jeremiahpena (Oct 5, 2019)

Yes, it sounds really good. The brass in my Jurassic World Evolution score is almost all Berlin Brass. But, after getting Cinematic Studio Brass, I barely use Berlin Brass anymore. So while I think you'd be happy with it, I would recommend CSB over it for general use.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Oct 5, 2019)

Berlin Brass is fantastic, but won't be your best friend if you need to get stuff done quickly. It is a very deeply sampled library which can lead to marvellous results, but it takes time !


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## Ghostlion234 (Oct 5, 2019)

jeremiahpena said:


> Yes, it sounds really good. The brass in my Jurassic World Evolution score is almost all Berlin Brass. But, after getting Cinematic Studio Brass, I barely use Berlin Brass anymore. So while I think you'd be happy with it, I would recommend CSB over it for general use.



I have heard cinematic studio brass before and I actually liked its sampling sound. My main demographic for the library would be the trumpet sampling because I would want to make trumpet melodies such as star wars and fantasmic. I haven't fully heard the trumpet in cinematic studio brass, so what will be better for trumpet in those marches.


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## jeremiahpena (Oct 5, 2019)

Ghostlion234 said:


> I have heard cinematic studio brass before and I actually liked its sampling sound. My main demographic for the library would be the trumpet sampling because I would want to make trumpet melodies such as star wars and fantasmic. I haven't fully heard the trumpet in cinematic studio brass, so what will be better for trumpet in those marches.



CSB is definitely better for those sorts of fanfare style melodies. Every instrument has a marcato patch that is very playable. With Berlin Brass you need to construct those from different lengths of shorts with keyswitches. CSB also gets louder and more brassy than Berlin Brass. When I needed those really loud bits with Berlin Brass I had to turn to Metropolis Ark 1 instead.

Here's a couple of tracks that only use CSB. They're not very march-like, but they do have some loud trumpet parts.


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## Billy Palmer (Oct 5, 2019)

Wow this is these are the best demos I've heard for CSB!

The demos I've heard for CSB have all been slightly more of a scoring stage sound. What's your mixing process for getting this kind of lush hall sound out of CSB?


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## dcoscina (Oct 5, 2019)

jeremiahpena said:


> CSB is definitely better for those sorts of fanfare style melodies. Every instrument has a marcato patch that is very playable. With Berlin Brass you need to construct those from different lengths of shorts with keyswitches. CSB also gets louder and more brassy than Berlin Brass. When I needed those really loud bits with Berlin Brass I had to turn to Metropolis Ark 1 instead.
> 
> Here's a couple of tracks that only use CSB. They're not very march-like, but they do have some loud trumpet parts.



Nice tracks man.


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## jason.d (Oct 5, 2019)

Wow those are some really nice tracks! Great job!


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## jeremiahpena (Oct 5, 2019)

William Palmer said:


> The demos I've heard for CSB have all been slightly more of a scoring stage sound. What's your mixing process for getting this kind of lush hall sound out of CSB?



I use the default Mix mic, with no EQ, and sent to QL Spaces. In these cases, Digital Hollywood Hall 3.8s. 
Here's the brass only stem for Race: https://clyp.it/4d1z0ils


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## Ghostlion234 (Oct 5, 2019)

jeremiahpena said:


> CSB is definitely better for those sorts of fanfare style melodies. Every instrument has a marcato patch that is very playable. With Berlin Brass you need to construct those from different lengths of shorts with keyswitches. CSB also gets louder and more brassy than Berlin Brass. When I needed those really loud bits with Berlin Brass I had to turn to Metropolis Ark 1 instead.
> 
> Here's a couple of tracks that only use CSB. They're not very march-like, but they do have some loud trumpet parts.




Would you say that it is possible to create march melodies with only berlin brass.


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## jeremiahpena (Oct 5, 2019)

Ghostlion234 said:


> Would you say that it is possible to create march melodies with only berlin brass.



Yes, Berlin Brass will do it, just with more effort and a little less convincingly depending on the melody.


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## pawelmorytko (Oct 5, 2019)

Some people will probably disagree, but I found the trumpet shorts in CSB not quite having that timbre that you hear in John Williams/John Powell compositions that Berlin Brass and Cinebrass trumpets seem to be able to do a bit better. The overall library really is amazing, my only other issue was that I've struggled to get CSB to sound nice soft and mellow in the low dynamics, CSB does have a great dynamic range but I just can't seem to get those nice soft mellow chords with the brass. 

That's why I'm in a similar position wondering if to get another brass library to compliment CSB, like Berlin Brass/Cinebrass, but keep hearing people say they have ditched every brass library they have for CSB and I wonder if I'm just doing something wrong.


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## Ghostlion234 (Oct 5, 2019)

pawelmorytko said:


> Some people will probably disagree, but I found the trumpet shorts in CSB not quite having that timbre that you hear in John Williams/John Powell compositions that Berlin Brass and Cinebrass trumpets seem to be able to do a bit better. The overall library really is amazing, my only other issue was that I've struggled to get CSB to sound nice soft and mellow in the low dynamics, CSB does have a great dynamic range but I just can't seem to get those nice soft mellow chords with the brass.
> 
> That's why I'm in a similar position wondering if to get another brass library to compliment CSB, like Berlin Brass/Cinebrass, but keep hearing people say they have ditched every brass library they have for CSB and I wonder if I'm just doing something wrong.



CSB seems to be a good library for marches (my main demographic) that john williams and john powell will make. An earlier post suggested berlin brass because john powell uses that and though it is true, I feel like berlin brass approaches more classical pieces than marches. Don't get me wrong, berlin brass is great for marches, but as Jeremiah Pena said it will take more time and effort. which may mean that most of the time when producing, I would have to change articulation back and forth. CSB will be more of a go to library. It is quite hard to choose between berlin brass and CSB


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## Kony (Oct 5, 2019)

Ghostlion234 said:


> I would have to change articulation back and forth


I've actually found this incredibly easy using OT's Capsule to create my own multis, combined with expression maps set to attributes


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## Billy Palmer (Oct 5, 2019)

jeremiahpena said:


> I use the default Mix mic, with no EQ, and sent to QL Spaces. In these cases, Digital Hollywood Hall 3.8s.
> Here's the brass only stem for Race: https://clyp.it/4d1z0ils


In all the CSB demos, I'm impressed by the range and punchy sound. And the programming's clearly brilliant. But I've always been concerned about it sounding I guess 'too clean' - I'm now sold.
Gorgeous work - thanks for sharing the stem!
And to think that's without playing withthe mic mixes...


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## dcoscina (Oct 5, 2019)

I find Berlin Brass to be quite amazing for concert-work pieces and less amped up film music. I find it doesn't go to "11" the way OT's own Metropolis Ark series does and end up using a lot of the brass from those libraries for those really beefy sections. But as an expressive entity, it's hard to beat Berlin Brass.


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## jeremiahpena (Oct 5, 2019)

Here we go! Many audio examples incoming! 

When I wrote City of the Sword, I used Berlin Brass augmented with Metropolis Ark and Hollywood Brass. A short while later, Cinematic Studio Brass released and I redid the track using CSB. The version on Soundcloud is CSB version. But I still have the Berlin Brass version on Youtube, and I decided to open up the Cubase file to do some direct comparisons.


First, here is the *Cinematic Studio Brass *version:



Now, here is the *Berlin Brass+Met Ark+HWB *version:



And now for some stems!

The *Cinematic Studio Brass* version:








City of the Sword - Cinematic Studio Brass version - Clyp


Listen to City of the Sword - Cinematic Studio Brass version | Clyp is the easiest way to record, upload and share audio.




clyp.it





And the *Berlin Brass+Met Ark+HWB *version:








City of the Sword - Berlin+MetArk+HWB version - Clyp


Listen to City of the Sword - Berlin+MetArk+HWB version | Clyp is the easiest way to record, upload and share audio.




clyp.it





For reference to see what I layered in from Ark and HWB, here's the original version with those muted, leaving only *Berlin Brass:*








City of the Sword - Berlin Brass Only - Clyp


Listen to City of the Sword - Berlin Brass Only | Clyp is the easiest way to record, upload and share audio.




clyp.it





And here's the parts that were layered in from *Metropolis Ark and Hollywood Brass*:








City of the Sword - Met Ark and HWB Only - Clyp


Listen to City of the Sword - Met Ark and HWB Only | Clyp is the easiest way to record, upload and share audio.




clyp.it






Now, I wondered what it would sound like if I had only used Berlin Brass and left out the other libraries, so I threw together a version that was* Berlin Brass if it was all I had:*








 City of the Sword - Berlin Brass Test - Clyp


Listen to City of the Sword - Berlin Brass Test | Clyp is the easiest way to record, upload and share audio.




clyp.it


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## dcoscina (Oct 5, 2019)

jeremiahpena said:


> Here we go! Many audio examples incoming!
> 
> When I wrote City of the Sword, I used Berlin Brass augmented with Metropolis Ark and Hollywood Brass. A short while later, Cinematic Studio Brass released and I redid the track using CSB. The version on Soundcloud is CSB version. But I still have the Berlin Brass version on Youtube, and I decided to open up the Cubase file to do some direct comparisons.
> 
> ...



Man I'm loving your compositions. Your mock ups are really solid too but it's the development and harmoniies of your stuff I'm totally digging.

BTW- I prefer the Berlin Brass/Met Ark version for the brass. for a piece like this, i think the more concert orchestra styled brass suite it better. Though I do like the CSB mix a lot.


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## dcoscina (Oct 5, 2019)

j_kranz said:


> Berlin Brass is the bulk of the brass in John Powell’s template (according to his Instagram)... that should answer the question right there 😃


Just remember that Powell does mock ups that eventually get replaced by real orchestras. Some of us have to make do with sampled brass so it's not entirely an accurate comparison.


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## Ghostlion234 (Oct 5, 2019)

dcoscina said:


> Man I'm loving your compositions. Your mock ups are really solid too but it's the development and harmoniies of your stuff I'm totally digging.
> 
> BTW- I prefer the Berlin Brass/Met Ark version for the brass. for a piece like this, i think the more concert orchestra styled brass suite it better. Though I do like the CSB mix a lot.



I am more forward of looking for an answer for either CSB or Berlin brass. Will Berlin brass be alright by itself without metropolis ark 1?


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## dcoscina (Oct 5, 2019)

Ghostlion234 said:


> I am more forward of looking for an answer for either CSB or Berlin brass. Will Berlin brass be alright by itself without metropolis ark 1?


If it's for film scoring, then CSB. Plus its a little easier to create great sounding music on. Berlin Brass is amazing but takes more time to yield great results. 
I'm lucky, I have both so I don't have to decide. However, I use CSB a lot more than BB if I had to be honest.


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## jason.d (Oct 5, 2019)

Wow jeremiahpena, thanks for sharing those stems. I personally like the BB+Met Ark 1 + HWB version.

Seems like Berlin brass really shines during the French horns part.

Curious which strings library is your workhorse.


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## tabulius (Oct 6, 2019)

I tried to build a bigger template with Berlin Brass and 64Gb of ram. Bad idea, because that library takes a lot of resources. Also what I hate is how different articulations (staccatos, marcatos, sus and legatos) are not consistent in volume. Long notes top off at mf, shorts play at fff. Working with the library was too slow for me and I haven’t use them much. I might check BB again, when I get a new PC. I just get faster results with other libraries at the moment. Too bad this library isn’t resellable.


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## pawelmorytko (Oct 6, 2019)

Once the new shop is out, I think I'll only buy a couple of things from Berlin Brass instead of the whole library to fill the gaps that I find CSB to be lacking


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## Kurosawa (Oct 6, 2019)

To be short, if it supplements your style of scoring: yes!


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## MartinH. (Oct 6, 2019)

jeremiahpena said:


> Here we go! Many audio examples incoming!
> 
> When I wrote City of the Sword, I used Berlin Brass augmented with Metropolis Ark and Hollywood Brass. A short while later, Cinematic Studio Brass released and I redid the track using CSB. The version on Soundcloud is CSB version. But I still have the Berlin Brass version on Youtube, and I decided to open up the Cubase file to do some direct comparisons.
> 
> ...





Thanks so much for doing this! It fortifies my belief that CSB would be a great allround brass library for my needs. I hope one day there will be a nice sale on a bundle with the whole suite including woodwinds and percussion.


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## ProfoundSilence (Oct 6, 2019)

dcoscina said:


> Just remember that Powell does mock ups that eventually get replaced by real orchestras. Some of us have to make do with sampled brass so it's not entirely an accurate comparison.


yeah but his mockups sounds pretty darn close to the real thing.

IIRC I think he uses BB + cinebrass for trombones. 

Seems like the OP has already decided, but in general - BB has much better shorts - and lower dynamics. CSB has more aggressive fortissimo sustains, and while less deeply sampled - also takes up a smaller footprint. Also doesn't have individually sampled instruments, so if you're regularly writing chords within sections - berlin is going to handle that better. 

All of the hype around CSB is literally because the sustain patch is better programmed/sampled louder so it's easier to get by with the playable patch than it is to hand pick the articulations for a phrase


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## Land of Missing Parts (Oct 6, 2019)

dcoscina said:


> However, I use CSB a lot more than BB if I had to be honest.


Since Orchestral Tools will be selling a la carte, any recommendations of what Berlin Brass instruments might be worth cherry-picking to add to Cinematic Studio Brass?


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## Ghostlion234 (Oct 6, 2019)

dcoscina said:


> If it's for film scoring, then CSB. Plus its a little easier to create great sounding music on. Berlin Brass is amazing but takes more time to yield great results.
> I'm lucky, I have both so I don't have to decide. However, I use CSB a lot more than BB if I had to be honest.



What would be the scoring like if metropolis ark 1 and berlin brass are combined.


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## MartinH. (Oct 6, 2019)

ProfoundSilence said:


> All of the hype around CSB is literally because the sustain patch is better programmed/sampled louder so it's easier to get by with the playable patch than it is to hand pick the articulations for a phrase



Are you implying every demo of CSB that I've heard so far is using just that one playable patch and it still sounds better to me than most of the much more deeply sampled complex libraries with a bajillion different articulations? If that was true, it would be even more of an argument for CSB, right?!


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## Land of Missing Parts (Oct 6, 2019)

MartinH. said:


> Are you implying every demo of CSB that I've heard so far is using just that one playable patch and it still sounds better to me than most of the much more deeply sampled complex libraries with a bajillion different articulations? If that was true, it would be even more of an argument for CSB, right?!


At least he's stopped repeating that false claim that CSB only goes down to mp.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Oct 6, 2019)

Well, between CSB only going down to mp and Berlin Brass only going up to mf, we're all f****d


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## Land of Missing Parts (Oct 6, 2019)

whitewasteland said:


> Well, between CSB only going down to mp and Berlin Brass only going up to mf, we're all f****d


Joking aside, the CSB half of that equation is untrue, just to tamp down misinformation before it spreads.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Oct 6, 2019)

@Land of Missing Parts : That was said as a joke, but I think both are partially true  Berlin Brass clearly handles low dynamics better, and CSB clearly handles high dynamics better - especially on the sustain and legato patches. Both are beautiful virtual instruments, and I've heard fantastic sounding mockups with both of them. I'm not sure why everyone always want a "winner"...


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## MartinH. (Oct 6, 2019)

whitewasteland said:


> I'm not sure why everyone always want a "winner"...



Because I'm doing this as a hobby and even only buying one library of each type already makes it an outrageously expensive hobby in comparison to all the other things that interest me. I want a "winner" because I only want to buy one and then keep using that for a looong time.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Oct 6, 2019)

whitewasteland said:


> @Land of Missing Parts : That was said as a joke, but I think both are partially true  Berlin Brass clearly handles low dynamics better, and CSB clearly handles high dynamics better - especially on the sustain and legato patches. Both are beautiful virtual instruments, and I've heard fantastic sounding mockups with both of them. I'm not sure why everyone always want a "winner"...


Fair point. I can't speak to Berlin Brass, since I do not own it.

CSB favors loud dynamics. By that I only mean that a majority of the cc values between 1-127 will give you a loud sound. But it is also just as capable at handling quiet dynamics, you just need to stick to lower cc values. It's not at all unusual for me to use CSB and only use the bottom half of the mod wheel for large portions of a song.

The soft dynamic layers are there thought, that is for sure.

I am still interested in owning parts of Berlin Brass, when the a la carte system is launched. Any recommendations of what to look at?


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Oct 6, 2019)

MartinH. said:


> Because I'm doing this as a hobby and even only buying one library of each type already makes it an outrageously expensive hobby in comparison to all the other things that interest me. I want a "winner" because I only want to buy one and then keep using that for a looong time.





My point is there is no absolute winner ! It really depends on you, your tastes, the music you want to make. I only have Berlin Brass, and can't afford to have 5 brass libraries. And you know what ? I'm dealing with it  I'm making music with what I have and the mockups I'm doing now with Berlin Brass are way better than my first attempts with this library.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Oct 6, 2019)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Fair point. I can't speak to Berlin Brass, since I do not own it.
> 
> CSB favors loud dynamics. By that I only mean that a majority of the cc values between 1-127 will give you a loud sound. But it is also just as capable at handling quiet dynamics, you just need to stick to lower cc values. It's not at all unusual for me to use CSB and only use the bottom half of the mod wheel for large portions of a song.
> 
> The soft dynamic layers are there thought, that is for sure.



Of course they are there ! But as you said, the majority of the cc values will give you a loud sound. That's kind of the opposite with those Berlin Brass sustains  I'm not criticizing any of those libraries.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Oct 6, 2019)

whitewasteland said:


> Of course they are there !


I mention it because some folks were actually saying that the CSB soft layers aren't there, and that it just fades out in volume rather than having recorded at a lower dynamic. This is incorrect.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Oct 6, 2019)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> I mention it because some folks were actually saying that the CSB soft layers aren't there, and that it just fades out in volume rather than having recorded at a lower dynamic. This is incorrect.



Oh I missed that part of the show. Now I understand better


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## ProfoundSilence (Oct 6, 2019)

whitewasteland said:


> Oh I missed that part of the show. Now I understand better


yeah you have to get forensic to find the low dynamics - and since it would involved automating the hell out of the softest parts I just skip using it entirely. 

but that's not the "typical" use for brass, so for more "typical" modern brass uses, CSB works great. Some of us favor more traditional orchestration - and that makes the weaknesses of berlin brass matter less and less. 

I bought CSB and don't use it  mainly because chords don't sound good to me with solo or ensemble.


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## EvilDragon (Oct 6, 2019)

I feel this thread should be moved to Sample Talk, as it's not really directly Kontakt related.


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## NoamL (Oct 6, 2019)

tabulius said:


> I tried to build a bigger template with Berlin Brass and 64Gb of ram. Bad idea, because that library takes a lot of resources. Also what I hate is how different articulations (staccatos, marcatos, sus and legatos) are not consistent in volume. Long notes top off at mf, shorts play at fff. Working with the library was too slow for me and I haven’t use them much. I might check BB again, when I get a new PC. I just get faster results with other libraries at the moment. Too bad this library isn’t resellable.



Totally agreed. If I could *resell any library* it would be Berlin Brass because of the ratio between how much it cost and how much I use it. I have used CSB "under fire" on synthestration work for a TV show and there's no hype here. It's quality. Some comments in this thread confused me... "Less deeply sampled"? I'm not sure what samples are supposed to be missing... "Can't play quiet?" Yes it can't do very, very quiet brass chorales very well but the solo horn can sure knock out the start of Leia's Theme just fine. Maybe on a scale of 1 to 100 it's missing dynamics 1-15, meanwhile Berlin Brass is missing 65-100...

Sure, there's a lot that's quality about Berlin Brass too. It belongs to the generation of libraries that set out to do brass better than Cinebrass & Hollywood Brass and it achieves that with more mic options, more recorded soloists and (IMO) better scripting. The problem is the dynamic limitations and the inconsistency of the samples. If you just want to play a mezzo-forte sustain, you'll find it on a different point on the modwheel for _each_ of the four horns. It's nuts. I cannot imagine how John Powell gets any work done with this library, and I'm tempted to imagine that he just had his guys resample and rescript the whole thing. There's really nothing wrong with the samples themselves.


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## pawelmorytko (Oct 7, 2019)

NoamL said:


> Totally agreed. If I could *resell any library* it would be Berlin Brass because of the ratio between how much it cost and how much I use it. I have used CSB "under fire" on synthestration work for a TV show and there's no hype here. It's quality. Some comments in this thread confused me... "Less deeply sampled"? I'm not sure what samples are supposed to be missing... "Can't play quiet?" Yes it can't do very, very quiet brass chorales very well but the solo horn can sure knock out the start of Leia's Theme just fine. Maybe on a scale of 1 to 100 it's missing dynamics 1-15, meanwhile Berlin Brass is missing 65-100...
> 
> Sure, there's a lot that's quality about Berlin Brass too. It belongs to the generation of libraries that set out to do brass better than Cinebrass & Hollywood Brass and it achieves that with more mic options, more recorded soloists and (IMO) better scripting. The problem is the dynamic limitations and the inconsistency of the samples. If you just want to play a mezzo-forte sustain, you'll find it on a different point on the modwheel for _each_ of the four horns. It's nuts. I cannot imagine how John Powell gets any work done with this library, and I'm tempted to imagine that he just had his guys resample and rescript the whole thing. There's really nothing wrong with the samples themselves.


Strange to see people dislike Berlin Brass, really puts me off buying it when I already have CSB, but can't help but feel like CSB doesn't cover everything I need. People say they ditched Berlin Brass and their Cinebrass for CSB but I'm on the other hand considering them because the trumpets in CSB just don't have that same Hollywood bite that BB and CB do. Soft mellow brass swells are also really hard to do with CSB which BB even has as an actual recorded articulation.

Am I right thinking that Berlin Brass is the best thing on the market for John Williams/John Powell kind of music, and the Berlin Series overall is great for animation films and Marvel style soundtracks (where they are 99% traditional orchestral)


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## PaulieDC (Oct 7, 2019)

whitewasteland said:


> My point is there is no absolute winner !


Exactly, otherwise all the remaining sample library creators would go bankrupt. It's like asking what type of car is best to buy. How can one design fit everything? An Aston Martin DB11 doesn't help a soccer mom with six kids (I'm expecting some creative replies from _that _statement, lol!).


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## Zero&One (Oct 7, 2019)

PaulieDC said:


> An Aston Martin DB11 doesn't help a soccer mom with six kids



She's almost got her own team!


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## hdsmile (Oct 7, 2019)

jeremiahpena said:


> CSB is definitely better for those sorts of fanfare style melodies. Every instrument has a marcato patch that is very playable. With Berlin Brass you need to construct those from different lengths of shorts with keyswitches. CSB also gets louder and more brassy than Berlin Brass. When I needed those really loud bits with Berlin Brass I had to turn to Metropolis Ark 1 instead.
> 
> Here's a couple of tracks that only use CSB. They're not very march-like, but they do have some loud trumpet parts.




Excellent work and great sound, thanks Jeremiahpena!


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## Jdiggity1 (Oct 7, 2019)

EvilDragon said:


> I feel this thread should be moved to Sample Talk, as it's not really directly Kontakt related.


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## Ihnoc (Oct 8, 2019)

I saved and waited for a sale for Berlin Brass. I did consider Cinematic Studio Brass, especially with how great the strings are but the tone didn't grab me. I also explicitly wanted the separate players that Berlin Brass provides and I'm pretty happy.

I agree that the cost in both money and time for Berlin Brass is high and I would steer Cinematic Studio Brass to anyone who wants a specific brass option. Don't overlook the Berlin Brass mutes though, which are quite fantasic.


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## Loïc D (Oct 8, 2019)

@jeremiahpena Wonderful demo.
How did you learn such great writing skills ?
I’m a follower for now on.


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## constaneum (Oct 8, 2019)

jeremiahpena said:


> CSB is definitely better for those sorts of fanfare style melodies. Every instrument has a marcato patch that is very playable. With Berlin Brass you need to construct those from different lengths of shorts with keyswitches. CSB also gets louder and more brassy than Berlin Brass. When I needed those really loud bits with Berlin Brass I had to turn to Metropolis Ark 1 instead.
> 
> Here's a couple of tracks that only use CSB. They're not very march-like, but they do have some loud trumpet parts.




Nice works....What are the strings and woodwinds used here?


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## Land of Missing Parts (Oct 8, 2019)

constaneum said:


> Nice works....What are the strings and woodwinds used here?


Here are the details he gave from this post in December:
"Woodwinds are Berlin (Legacy), Strings are CSS+Soaring Strings+Hollywood Strings."


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## constaneum (Oct 8, 2019)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Here are the details he gave from this post in December:
> "Woodwinds are Berlin (Legacy), Strings are CSS+Soaring Strings+Hollywood Strings."



wow. I wonder whether he's using the same Space 2 preset, Digital Hollywood 3.8 for the strings and woodwinds.


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## jeremiahpena (Oct 8, 2019)

constaneum said:


> wow. I wonder whether he's using the same Space 2 preset, Digital Hollywood 3.8 for the strings and woodwinds.



I just send all of the instruments to a single QL Spaces instance. I'll use different impulses for different tracks, but I've been liking the Digital Hollywood one recently.


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## constaneum (Oct 8, 2019)

jeremiahpena said:


> I just send all of the instruments to a single QL Spaces instance. I'll use different impulses for different tracks, but I've been liking the Digital Hollywood one recently.



how much reverb did you send to all the sections? 100% wet?


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## Geocranium (Oct 9, 2019)

This just proves my recent revelation that intricate reverb setups aren't really necessary. I hardly bother adding reverb to my tracks anymore, as the baked-in reverberance from the samples already sounds good. Maybe a liiiiiiiittle bit at the end to extend the tail. IIRC Andy Blaney also doesn't use any reverb for his tracks.

I think the lighter the touch, the better the results. Let the beautifully recorded samples speak for themselves.

@jeremiahpena as an aside, I love your work on JWEvo. Feels right at place with the Jurassic universe.


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## hdsmile (Oct 9, 2019)

Geocranium said:


> This just proves my recent revelation that intricate reverb setups aren't really necessary. I hardly bother adding reverb to my tracks anymore, as the baked-in reverberance from the samples already sounds good. Maybe a liiiiiiiittle bit at the end to extend the tail. IIRC Andy Blaney also doesn't use any reverb for his tracks.



100% agree! your are obsoletely right that on many good recorded library using reverb aren't really necessary!


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Oct 10, 2019)

If I may, I'm not sure @jeremiahpena is going to give you any super-top-secret-setting or hidden feature. He's using the same tools than all of us. There is a wonderful live composing video on his Youtube channel, and you can see how simple his approach is. He is just a brillant composer and orchestrator, like Sascha Knorr, Andy Blaney etc. It's all in the writing.


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## tmhuud (Oct 11, 2019)

It’s not just a ‘volume/loudness issue. You’ll find that when you have a very dense or a very large orchestration you’ll find that you need to start prioritizing which instruments will favor which frequencies. Then you can ‘carve out’ some of the less important frequencies in certain instruments to make room for those in others.


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## jeremiahpena (Oct 11, 2019)

cipijazz said:


> I agree, he is. I saw the entire video and I loved it but what I didn't see is exactly what I've asked. Composer like him are not afraid of revealing the "secrets" as you called them. But maybe you could help me as well. When I compose in Logic everything starts to feels very loud and crowded after adding more and more instruments, it is fighting for space, here is one of my latest tracks if you could please hear it (here). So I Assume the solution is to start with faders very low and then mix from them, or perhaps something else. But Jeremiah is one of few that can control the dynamics of his mockups so well, although he spend a lots of time correcting the cc's which is totally wort it. Best regards, Vladan.



Like Tmhuud said, you need to leave space for all of the sections. Here's RttLE's piano roll so you can see how most of the parts occupy their own range: 

Another common problem I see is making the dynamics of everything too high. When you want things quiet, don't be afraid to only use the bottom 20% of the mod wheel/velocity. And reserve the top 20% for only truly loud moments. Most forte writing can comfortably sit around 75-100 on the mod wheel (depending on the library of course).


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## NoamL (Oct 11, 2019)

Jeremiah is right... in the real world this music isn't made to work by carefully EQing each instrument; that's infeasible because they're all playing in a room together.

In addition to making vertical space in your score you can also make horizontal space. I picked this up from JW. If musical events happen in sequence then the audience can pay attention to all of them and the score also feels more dense & complex. If musical events happen on top of each other the audience's attention is split and the music doesn't feel more exciting.

So if you take the theme from the latest Star Wars:






There is horizontal space after every quarter note (that is, another musical event could happen on beats 1.5, 2.5, 3.5...) but especially after the circled notes.

Then you can study how JW actually orchestrates this theme:


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## Alex Niedt (Oct 11, 2019)

cipijazz said:


> Although my question wasn’t about orchestrion, it was about mixing the instruments inside daw and reverb.


They are practically one and the same, though. Orchestration is the proper way to approach the tonal balances, levels, panning, colors, transients, etc. And the most natural and clean approach to reverb is choosing your mics with care. If you're using a bunch of EQ or any sort of dynamics processing within an orchestral mix, that means something can be fixed/improved in the orchestration. Once we get into a hybrid approach, some of this can fly out the window, but the best mix always starts with the best arrangement.


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## Kony (Oct 11, 2019)

cipijazz said:


> Cinestrings are much louder then the Berlin


You can adjust the volume in Kontakt.



cipijazz said:


> Spitfire has bigger reverb due to the room they are sampled in


You can add reverb to dry libs to match wet libs


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## Zee (Oct 11, 2019)

cipijazz said:


> So they are not one and the same, in my opinion


I totally relate to that but unfortunately there is no magical advice here you have to keep experimenting with each mix of samples and phrase and make choices about what are the most
important elements what works for blending CSB in one project might not(most of the times doesn't) work for others which is why no one is able to give you a straight answer


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