# Berklee College of Music (tuition)



## Vision (Apr 2, 2015)

Hoooly...

https://www.berklee.edu/paying-for-your ... attendance

Almost 3 times the cost when I went ('97-'00)... and I'm _still_ paying off my loan. 

The question is: Is this worth it in 2015 for the aspiring composer/musician? If so, what would be the best courses to take considering the money you've gotta spend? 

Personally, when I went I didn't learn much.. then again, I was pretty well versed with MIDI technology, and sequencing before I got accepted. Plus, my focus was not a principle instrument. I suppose in retrospect the experience of meeting musicians from all over the world was more interesting, and rewarding than the curriculum. I'm sure their MIDI facilities are bar none now. But still, for that kind of money... hm, wow.


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## MA-Simon (Apr 2, 2015)

> I suppose in retrospect the experience of meeting musicians from all over the world was more interesting


Thats the only thing which got me through my time studying art & design, because really... you don't learn a single usefull thing.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Apr 2, 2015)

3.1k for laptop lol


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## MichaelL (Apr 2, 2015)

That's more than what it cost me to go to a top law school, and my job prospects were
a lot better when I got out!

Where are all of these grads going to work?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 2, 2015)

I think it was a little over $3000 a semester when I was there (1979 - 1981, eight straight semesters including the summers).


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## Valérie_D (Apr 2, 2015)

I have been following Mike Verta's masterclasses for 2 years now, 
30$ for 5 hours of tips and great content to improve your composition, your mix, your business skills, etc, Worth it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1mYb7GrOJ0


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## d.healey (Apr 2, 2015)

+1 for Mike! I learnt far more from him, about writing music, in one class than I ever did at university.


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## pkm (Apr 2, 2015)

If you go to Berklee for four years and don't learn anything, that's on you. You get out of it what you put into it.

For me, I went for 4.5 years (summers included), took every elective I could fit into my schedule and then some, and came out of it a much better musician and much more prepared for my first job out here. Admittedly, I learned more in my first year in the real world than my time at Berklee, but that's because the foundation was already solid.


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## Valérie_D (Apr 2, 2015)

*The online orchestral courses at Berklee are great too.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Apr 2, 2015)

I'd say that so far I've learned a lot from university and its broadened my musical horizons. Having said that, its only a handful of courses that have done that and a huge chunk of the courses I have do take aren't all that great (or are things that I've done in the past). Also, my school is the top theory/composition school in the country so we go beyond what other schools go. Perhaps if I have done to another school I would've already known all the theory that's taught, making it less worth the time/money. But I'm only paying $4000 per semester so I can't really compare to the cost/worth of US schools. 

Berklee online now has degrees which only costs the equivalent of 1 year at Berklee. I'll probably be doing a degree there since I can transfer over half of it from my university (the basic musicianship, theory, history) and I'll already planning to take most of the other courses that are included in the degree so I'll only need ~5 courses to finish that degree once I've done the individual courses that I'm taking.


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## gsilbers (Apr 2, 2015)

keep in mind that the degree is counted as a regular bachelor diploma. which means its like going to any 4 year college for any degree. 
so if you decide music is not paying the bills with the berklee degree you can apply for any job that requires a college degree. and would hire you of course


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## Dave Connor (Apr 2, 2015)

If the most {applicable} knowledge gained at the fastest rate at the least cost is the goal, than private study is the way to go. You want that moment by moment interaction and feedback with someone who's going over your work and addressing all your strengths and weaknesses. Someone who has been meeting the professional requirements of the industry you seek to work in with consistency and artistry.

Seven years of classroom study and a composition degree did not even approach what I learned privately. That's why I teach today and try to have at least a few students, to pass on what can hardly be found in any other environment. It's a proven method over centuries.


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## Farkle (Apr 2, 2015)

Dave Connor @ Thu Apr 02 said:


> If the most {applicable} knowledge gained at the fastest rate at the least cost is the goal, than private study is the way to go. You want that moment by moment interaction and feedback with someone who's going over your work and addressing all your strengths and weaknesses. Someone who has been meeting the professional requirements of the industry you seek to work in with consistency and artistry.
> 
> Seven years of classroom study and a composition degree did not even approach what I learned privately. That's why I teach today and try to have at least a few students, to pass on what can hardly be found in any other environment. It's a proven method over centuries.



+1,000 to that. I'm in the same boat, tons of formal education, but the absolute most growth I've had as a pro composer has been studying privately under Craig Sharmat for the last 4 years. Of course, you have to make sure you have the right teacher... 

And, in my case, the combo of EIS and Craig Sharmat is a total win. 

Mike


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## Daryl (Apr 2, 2015)

In my view University is only about the qualification and study when one is a mature student. For an undergraduate, learning to live away from ones parents and becoming an adult are equally important. So even if the amount learned is not always as much as it could be, the time away from home is invaluable.

D


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## Kardon (Apr 2, 2015)

pkm @ Thu Apr 02 said:


> If you go to Berklee for four years and don't learn anything, that's on you. You get out of it what you put into it.



1+ to that, for the most part. 

Berklee is no different than other colleges and universities in the U.S. whose tuition increases are fueled by the increased availability of government student loans and grants, as documented over the last decade or so. Loans and grants make up the majority of tuition payments at most schools. That's a lot of debt to overcome for most graduates.

That much money can buy a lot of the private instruction praised in previous posts (and a lot of gear, too!).


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 2, 2015)

Private study is great, but it only teaches you music.

And if all you know is music, you're a fool. I wouldn't trade my education at Berklee for anything, and I wouldn't go on their diploma track either. Some of the academic classes I took there have stuck with me as much as the music ones.


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## Dave Connor (Apr 2, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Apr 02 said:


> Private study is great, but it only teaches you music..



I thought that was obvious Nick or I would have mentioned it. I was addressing learning composition only. As much as I enjoyed the campus environment and recognize the importance of it for many reasons, learning composition isn't one of them. If that is the main goal than _whatever else you do_, study privately.


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## Dave Connor (Apr 2, 2015)

Vision @ Thu Apr 02 said:


> The question is: Is this worth it in 2015 for the aspiring composer/musician? If so, what would be the best courses to take considering the money you've gotta spend?
> 
> Personally, when I went I didn't learn much.. I suppose in retrospect the experience of meeting musicians from all over the world was more interesting, and rewarding than the curriculum.



This was what I was addressing. Since he had already had the campus experience (and recognized the value of it) he seemed to be asking, _what do I do now?_ I suggested the path taken by Mozart, Beethoven, Williams and Goldsmith - which I wouldn't think could be argued against.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 2, 2015)

Dave, of course. I'm just commenting on the overall thread, not smacking you with a glove again.

Having said that, learning composition actually is something you can do at Berklee. It's a totally immersive environment that you don't get studying privately - never mind that private lessons (on your instrument) were part of the curriculum when I was there too.

That was just a little while ago, before digital technology was as big a part of being a musician as it is everything else. But I personally wouldn't be quick to recommend private study as an *alternative* to Berklee, and I don't look at any college as a 1:1 financial investment anyway. Maybe, say, law school or medical school, yes, but intellectual development in general is a big part of what makes us who we are.

^ Daughter in private college. Oy oy oy.


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## Vision (Apr 2, 2015)

Hope you all didn't take me the wrong way. I'm not trying to knock getting a Berklee education. Don't get me wrong. Totally agree what you get out of it is up to the individual. I'm just looking at today's climate, and what would be "practical" in a sense. 

I want to say it was probably vastly more beneficial in Nicks day to have a Berklee education. Now a days, the resources to find your own path are much easier than ever. The technology and the access to information makes making music easier.. perhaps not as fulfilling (?), which is another topic altogether. You can literally go on youtube and learn advanced courses in music theory, and instrument technique. Of course no one can teach you musicianship, or how to find your own sound. 

In terms of midi production and technique, I suppose official online courses are great. But like a number of you have mentioned, Mike Verta's classes are probably some of the best practical knowledge from a pro at the fraction of a cost. I've only seen one of his free videos, but it was really fantastic and entertaining. 

I did learn a few things at Berklee. Mandatory prerequisites for Piano… sight reading got a little better, dexterity got better. I was/am an ear guy, so it was actually a little frustrating at times, because I didn't intend to go there to learn piano. Film score classes were interesting, in terms of history and techniques used by composers. As far as what I wanted to learn.. was literally able to test out of a number of their Midi Technology classes, and completely tested to adv Ear Training 4. 

Honestly, I wouldn't trade the experience. Because I learned what I did and didn't want as a musician, and was at least pushed in a direction to find my own path. I did meet some cool people as well. 

If I were late teens, early twenties today.. hm. I personally would probably benefit more from Youtube, the Vertas', and the Sharmats' of the world. Roughly 300k for a Degree in music in this economy? Unless you have rich parents, or get a sweet gig somehow out of college. How practical is this?


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## Hannes_F (Apr 2, 2015)

Vision @ Thu Apr 02 said:


> Hoooly...
> 
> https://www.berklee.edu/paying-for-your ... attendance



I'm shocked. These (USD 120,000) are costs_ per year_?

If so then I wonder how many kids of musicians can expect their parents to fully pay them a music study. Makes me wonder.


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## germancomponist (Apr 2, 2015)

https://www.google.de/?gws_rd=ssl#newwindow=1&q=die+absurdesten+Ideas+to+make+money&spell=1


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## AndreasWaldetoft (Apr 2, 2015)

In sweden you get payed to go to University...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 2, 2015)

That's how it should be here too, Andreas.

Hannes, I think $60K is per year. But it's still insane, and it's totally in line with other private colleges. The one my daughter goes to is the same (or it would be if we were paying list price, which wouldn't be a remote possibility).



> I want to say it was probably vastly more beneficial in Nicks day to have a Berklee education.



Probably not more beneficial, but at least there was a thriving music industry to struggle to try and get into. 

Something has to break. I don't see how this can continue.


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## AlexandreSafi (Apr 2, 2015)

I was going to address this, but *Vision*, in your 2nd post, you practically answered your own question and even said exactly what i was going to say...
You said it best, it's 2015: Between the Amazons, M.Vertas (quite frankly he's that once-in-a-lifetime best-of-America Western-Zen kind of guy!), the "Macprovideos/Groove3s/Lyndas/CreativeLIVE" tutorials, you name it, it's all waiting for you!...
But the rules are always timeless: know yourself + you gotta desire pragmatism, seek specificity, specialize & commit!
You & your faculties are all the education you need!
As a student, i believe keeping a private door, or 1-on-1, has never been as valuable as now!
But really it's about knowing when Solitude vs. when Community can be your best ally & not a distraction to self-growth... 
You should read *Ralph Waldo Emerson*'s XIXth century essay on "Self-Reliance", i'm sure you'll love it!

Trust & Know thyself!
Best,
A.s.


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## stonzthro (Apr 2, 2015)

I'm with you Nick - I don't see how it can continue either.


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## rgames (Apr 2, 2015)

Keep in mind that the best way to compare education costs is to look at *only* tuition and other fees (including books). You have to eat and have a place to sleep, so any costs incurred in so doing are going to be incurred regardless of whether or not you're getting a degree. So those costs really shouldn't be part of the cost of education. They're part of the cost of being a human being, educated or otherwise.

As far as ridiculous costs go - yes, college costs are absurd. I always say that a car's worth of debt at graduation is fine but a house's worth of debt is stupid regardless of profession. I would go so far as to say incurring any debt in pursuit of an arts degree is not a wise decision.

The costs are ridiculous because there's a perception within the US that college degrees are the best way to financial security, so there's a huge demand for them, a demand that is backed by lots of government subsidies. The colleges have every incentive to bury a student under a pile of debt - they have no skin in the game. Hence, we have too many people with college degrees (and many who never even get the degree) and associated worthless student debt.

The way to fix the problem is to get the colleges to underwrite the student loans, not the government. Then the colleges have a vested interest in providing degrees with good returns on investment - if the college provides worthless degrees then it won't get paid.

The truth is that, for 99% of Americans, managing debt has more effect on financial security than managing income. Student debt is a good place to start.

rgames


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## rgames (Apr 2, 2015)

Weird - less than 30 seconds after that last post my wife walked in with the mail and handed me this...


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## jaredcowing (Apr 2, 2015)

I have to agree with Richard on the tuition vs room & board point, although it's also true that alot of students don't have access to a (pertinent) university close enough that they can live at home while studying, and so they have to pay to live in a different area to get access to the university they want, at which point room & board really does become part of the expense of getting the degree. I think being able to find a school where you can live with friends or family and not pay rent (or not pay much) should be as important a factor when doing a college search as how expensive the tuition is.

Anyway, being someone who works at a public university that has cut expenses to the bone during the recession, I can say that not all universities have inflated tuition due just to limitless gov't loans. That's certainly the case for some schools (esp the for profits) but not all of them. I think a major factor in the exploding cost of higher ed is the rise of labor costs... alot of times schools will cut staff, pay their adjuncts peanuts and labor costs still go up. It might be related to the fact that education is a very service-based 'good' that cannot be easily automated (though MOOCs might change that). In our increasingly automated society (this is just my theory), the cost of services that still rely heavily on human labor inflate much faster than everything else because they're the only services that aren't becoming more efficient as quickly (healthcare is in a similar situation I think). Should our goal be to cut human beings out of all services as much as possible because we can't compete with the efficiency of machines, and we cost more? It's a fair question with no easy answer...


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## Hannes_F (Apr 3, 2015)

A quick check of numbers: The HMTM Hannover where I studied had a total budget for one year of EUR 23.2 Mil. EUR in 2013 for ca. 1350 students, that makes costs of EUR 17,200 (currently USD 18,700, used to be more) per year and student. 

The student fees were in the range of 4 % of the total costs, the remaining funds came from other sources (mainly public funding).

So it seems that the USD 40k in Berklee might perhaps slightly be over the actual costs but it is the order of magnitude, plus probably a considerably percentage to compensate for financial aids like studentships.


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## Daryl (Apr 3, 2015)

I think it's only fair to remember that much of the money that students pay to universities is not for lessons and tutorials. There is a lot of infrastructure that needs to be paid for as well.

However, I think what irks a lot of people is that the full time lecturers and professors seem to think that teaching the students is getting in the way of their research, whereas the students don't think that they should be paying such huge sums just so that some professor can spend months researching Who Wants to be a Millionaire.

D


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## Hannes_F (Apr 3, 2015)

Daryl: In a music College? Our professors were mostly instrument teachers, composition teachers, orchestra teachers, music history teachers. Very little research, especially compared to university.

I've seen both music college and university from inside, and while a uni professor had to lecture max. 8 hours a week and do research in the rest of time (and it was true that many thought that lecturing got into the way of what they wanted to do and were miserable as teachers) the typical workload of a music college professor was to give individual instrument training to a class of 25 students, typically 1.5 hours of training per student and week. But that is only how it is (or was) here.


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## Daniel James (Apr 3, 2015)

lol $65k for a diploma no one will ever ask to see with no stable potential work options once you graduate? No thanks haha, give me interviews and youtube any day 

-DJ


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 3, 2015)

Depends on:

1. What you study. There are not a lot of places other than a college/conservatory where you can have (theoretically, at least) good teachers teach you harmony, counterpoint, composition, instrumentation, all while giving you a chance to participate in a choir, orchestra, or band.

2. Do you want to actually be good or just be able to make music that is au courant and get paid?

When I went to Boston Conservatory of Music in the late '60's, it was $1,500 a year, which seemed like a lot then. but I could raise it by singing and playing in the summer on Cape Cod.

Now it is $41,000.


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## Daryl (Apr 3, 2015)

Hannes_F @ Fri Apr 03 said:


> Daryl: In a music College? Our professors were mostly instrument teachers, composition teachers, orchestra teachers, music history teachers. Very little research, especially compared to university.
> 
> I've seen both music college and university from inside, and while a uni professor had to lecture max. 8 hours a week and do research in the rest of time (and it was true that many thought that lecturing got into the way of what they wanted to do and were miserable as teachers) the typical workload of a music college professor was to give individual instrument training to a class of 25 students, typically 1.5 hours of training per student and week. But that is only how it is (or was) here.


Yes, I also have experience of both college and university (and have taught at both) and would broadly agree that music college teachers put in more hours and a lot of it is individual lessons, so can understand the cost, up to a point. I also seem to remember that music colleges have longer terms than most Unis.

D


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## antoniopandrade (Apr 3, 2015)

As a recent Berklee graduate I can only speak of my experience.

Even though private colleges in general are incredibly overpriced, the experience you get at Berklee is unique in the world. I would never have been exposed to the things that made me want to do what I'm doing today if I hadn't gone to Berklee, it really opened my eyes and my world to new possibilities.

That being said, other people have different ways of getting to the same place, and hey man, if your road is youtube videos and you just happen to live close to a studio, or a concert hall, or you were raised by world class musicians, all the power to you, that's what makes the world interesting, those small differences that make up an individual.

I will say that the Berklee community (even though not always helped by Berklee itself) is powerful, and in the job market it does make a difference (not a huge difference, but in an industry this competitive, any help is welcome). All in all, I don't my time there was a waste of time or money, not in the slightest.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 3, 2015)

Sing it brutha.


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## gsilbers (Apr 3, 2015)

i am seening some comments about berklee not being worth it and private tutor or youtube channels will teach as much. 

one thing id like to stress is that berklee degree is a bachelor degree accepted as any bachelor degree from any college. 

why is this important? well, how many jobs are out there for music and how much do poeple make in music? very little, right? we all know that. 

folks who pay for berklee (aka parents) want to know that if it doesnt work out in music their kid can still apply for a masters in any olther field or be accepted in jobs where a minimun of a bachelor degree is acceptable. this can be in any filed. most places with entry level jobs that require a bachelor doesnt have to have the exact bachelor of that job. 

in LA i have seen several ex berklee guys who are not working in music. they work in other fields. still do the music thing on the side or for fun. 
trying to see the workd outside music sometimes is difficult for some but there is one.


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