# WiFi / Mesh / Router recommendations?



## charlieclouser (Nov 28, 2018)

And now it's my turn to ask the questions.

It's time to replace some aging Apple AirPorts at my place. I'd like to keep the setup as Mac-centric as possible, avoiding the PC-esque manual configuring of ports, subnet masks, blah blah blah. I hate that stuff. I sort of just want a newer, fresher, faster version of what I've been using for years. Here's my current setup:

Frontier FIOS modem/router thing > 3 foot CAT5 cable > Apple Airport #1 in my studio (the old one with 802.11n) > 100 foot CAT5 cable > Apple Airport #2 in the house (a more recent one with 802.11ac).

Yes, I run a 100 foot CAT5 cable outdoors around the back of the house to get from my studio over to the main part of the house, which is all concrete and steel and basically impervious to WiFi - penetration is very low. I could just replace my studio AirPort with the last model, which did have 802.11ac, and that keeps things simple... but if there is some new hotness that has 802.11ac "wave 2" or whatever, then....

Since Apple discontinued the AirPort line, the only thing they sell is the Linksys Velop mesh system. I don't know all that much about it but what I DON'T like is that you need a Linksys account and smartphone app to configure the things (don't want to set up an account for my router!), and I am fine to connect the various routers to each other with CAT5 and thereby avoid the slow-downs of mesh systems that are using bandwidth / channels for back-hauling. I don't know if these have 802.11ac "wave 2" or exactly what that even means - maybe the "wave 2" jargon just refers to it using two channels - one for traffic and one for back-hauling to extend the network via mesh? I need clarity on that aspect...

I am fine with getting two of whatever the new hotness is, like those insect-looking things with the six antennas sticking out, and continuing to connect the two via CAT5 - it's worked for a decade and then I don't have to "mesh" - as long as I can configure the setup so that both routers are broadcasting THE SAME wifi network and not "studio network" and "house network" - and as long as I can configure the setup from a Mac (I have no windows machines here).

One cool thing about the Velop system is that you can assign priorities to various client devices, so I can tell the system to keep the smart tv in the living room at high priority so the wife can wirelessly stream her Netflix at 4k, and it will slow down browsing on all the iPads if bandwidth gets in short supply. But then there's that Linksys account..... hate that idea. Still, that kind of feature would be great and is something the AirPorts don't have.

Any suggestions? Asus? Google WiFi? Or just scrounge up a couple of the last model of AirPort Extreme that had 802.11ac? (They have a few left down at Best Buy...)

What say ye, IT professionals?

(edit = I am on 150mbit fiber, and at some point will up that to 300, so if the 802.11ac AirPorts will be too slow to keep up with that, let me know...)


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## funnybear (Nov 28, 2018)

Have you thought about using Powerline instead of WiFi (assuming your equipment is stationary unlike a laptop you move around with you).

I am using these (UK version, but you get them in US versions as well):
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B00X59GJGC?psc=1&ref=yo_pop_mb_pd_title

Much better speeds and latency then WiFi. But it depends on the topology and age of your electrical cabling in the house.

In my case the Powerline network is able to jump over two discreet electrical circuits across the house which is very good.


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## funnybear (Nov 28, 2018)

PS: you can obviously also attach a WiFi hotspot adaptor to each Powerline adaptor to create a strong WiFi signal in each room if needed.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Nov 28, 2018)

I was also going to suggest powerline instead of using your long cable. For high performance stuff like VEP, it's a no-go but should be fine for other things like streaming. 

I've had good experiences with Asus. Our house doesn't have super thick walls but we were having issues with certain parts not getting wifi. Adding an Asus router as a second access point fixed the wifi throughout the entire house.


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## samphony (Nov 28, 2018)

Thanks for bringing this up Charlie! I’m on the research hunt as well. I’ll share my findings if I find the right system.


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## Will Wilson (Nov 28, 2018)

Google Wifi. We use a mesh of 3 in my office and they work flawlessly!


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## kclements (Nov 28, 2018)

I replaced my aging AirPorts stations with Eero(https://eero.com) and they are fantastic. Way easier to set up then the Airport’s and the results are better too. I have three of them scattered around the house and the coverage is rock solid. The app guides you through the best placements of the satellites.


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## Blake Ewing (Nov 28, 2018)

I use eero, too.


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## burp182 (Nov 28, 2018)

I have the same issue with structural interference and use Powerline but I don’t think it’ll bear up under the demands I think you might make of your network (if not now, then in the future). Wiring funk can make for odd and not easily sourced cyclical slowdowns. Not debilitating but not fiber-fast, either. 
Not qualified to speak on the new wireless systems, so I’ll leave that to others more informed.


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## Soundhound (Nov 28, 2018)

For the Powerline approach, the two houses need to be on the same circuit don't they? My back house w/studio is on a separate power circuit so I wound up having to bury a cable. And then wound up using the Wifi anyway since the router is in the back of the main house...


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## tmhuud (Nov 28, 2018)

If you want a guys opinion who does this for studios professionally you can contact my IT guy, Geoff Miller. He owns Mad Cow Studios, isn’t too far from you. If you don’t get ahold of him right away, he’s out standing in his field. (Yes, that’s actually their motto)

I like him because he understands all the software we composers use everyday.

Geoff: (818) 388-9465


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## charlieclouser (Dec 2, 2018)

tmhuud said:


> If you want a guys opinion who does this for studios professionally you can contact my IT guy, Geoff Miller. He owns Mad Cow Studios, isn’t too far from you. If you don’t get ahold of him right away, he’s out standing in his field. (Yes, that’s actually their motto)
> 
> I like him because he understands all the software we composers use everyday.
> 
> Geoff: (818) 388-9465



@tmhuud - I just spoke to Geoff and he's great - he's going to be the cure for what ails me I'm sure. Thanks for the recommendation!


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## charlieclouser (Dec 2, 2018)

By the way, Geoff suggested a third alternative to Eero and Velop for those looking to replace Airports with a modern mesh WiFi system - the AmpliFi series from Ubiquiti. Similar to the Eero in that there's a base station, along with satellites that plug directly into a wall outlet like a nightlight would, with the bonus of NOT needing to set up an account with the manufacturer to administer the system, although you can use an iPhone app or browser to configure them if you want. There is also a touchscreen display on the base station to allow setup without using an app or browser, and this also displays real-time network speeds right on the front panel. Pricing is in line with Eero and Velop. The Mesh Router HD (aka base station) also has four downstream Ethernet ports, which may eliminate the need for a Gigabit switch to provide hardwired connections in smaller setups. The only possible drag is that the wall-plug MeshPoint HDs (aka wall-mount satellites) do not have any Ethernet connectors - they are WiFi extenders only - but they do come pre-configured to talk to the base station they're shipped with, and you can use multiple base stations if you want. That sounds like what I'll do - one Mesh Router HD (aka base station) in the studio next to the ISP's router, a Cat6 cable to a second one in the house, and a pair of the MeshPoint HDs to provide more coverage around the house.

https://www.ubnt.com/products/#amplifi

When I asked if I should be looking at those insane Asus and other routers with the six antennae, the ones that look like a spider on its back, he said, "Meh. Don't bother with that stuff. Way more hassle and speed won't be any better. That stuff is mostly for Windows gamers who don't mind spending all day tweaking settings to get 2msec better ping to the PUBG servers." Good.

I noticed on the AmpliFi sub-reddit an announcement of a "Gamer's Edition" of the AmpliFi system - no speed bump, and the internal hardware is the same - but the satellites have movable antennae to allow you to aim them at the target, and the firmware is different to allow for lower latency and ping. 

https://community.amplifi.com/topic/1437/introducing-amplifi-gamer-s-edition

.... oh, and they're black. So there's that.


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## AlexRuger (Dec 2, 2018)

Shit, right on, thanks for all that man. AmpliFi it is for my new pad (love the black so going with the "gamer" edition )


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## dflood (Dec 2, 2018)

I’m in the same situation re: Apple Airports. I live in a fairly remote location and I get my broadband Internet via long range wireless from a repeater on an island six miles away. Works surprisingly well but of course the speeds are not bleeding edge. Anyway, my ISP, who should know a lot about wireless, since that is how they serve their entire customer base, recommended I go with the Ubiquity Amplify system when I retire the airports.


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## Divico (Dec 2, 2018)

My two cents on powerline. Doesnt this mess up your powersupply ?
As far as I can tell it modulates your power supplies voltage. Normally people are quite crazy about their power in the studio - see power conditioners etc.
Since Charlie likes to record stuff himself I doubt thats a good idea.


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## charlieclouser (Dec 2, 2018)

Divico said:


> My two cents on powerline. Doesnt this mess up your powersupply ?
> As far as I can tell it modulates your power supplies voltage. Normally people are quite crazy about their power in the studio - see power conditioners etc.
> Since Charlie likes to record stuff himself I doubt thats a good idea.



Geoff actually said that power line stuff was not bad, per se - and that it can and does work in audio environments. But it's best used in huge, late-model houses with recent, state-of-the-art electric wiring - huge as in: difficult to get WiFi or Cat6 going every which way. My house isn't some 1920's bungalow, but it is 20 years old with lots of Romex wiring (not hard conduits) and there's the chance for some funny business. Since I can easily use a mesh WiFi setup, and having that one Cat6 cable running from the studio to the house is not a big deal at all, we let the power line discussion die.


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## HardyP (Dec 3, 2018)

Don’t know if they are availlable in the US, but I can recommend AVM products. It doesn’t matter which path you take (cat, power, air,...), their MESH capable products just work perfectly together, no big deal in terms of config, with the FritzBox you can keep track of your complete network, and even remotely update all mesh satellites and so on.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 3, 2018)

You can still buy the Airport Extreme Base Station:

https://www.apple.com/search/airport?src=alp


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## charlieclouser (Dec 3, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> You can still buy the Airport Extreme Base Station:
> 
> https://www.apple.com/search/airport?src=alp



Yeah, and there's still a bunch in stock down at the local BestBuy. Since my WiFi coverage is just fine with a pair of the old AirPorts, and I don't really "need" mesh technology to cover my whole house, and all my heavy downloads occur over a hardwired connection, I may just grab a couple of the last AirPort Extremes and call it a day for now. For me it's between doing that and the AmpliFi HD setup. Obviously I love how setup with AirPorts is Apple-style - one click and you're done. But I realize that Apple may deprecate the AirPort Utility software at some point. (Not like I have ever used it after initial setup, but...) 

What I really don't like about Eero and Velop is the "create account" business. I mean, it's just a freaking router, I shouldn't need yet another login and password on some company's website to administer the thing. I'm sure it's all safe and secure and blah blah blah, but something about that just rubs me the wrong way - who knows what back doors that opens up? It appears that the AmpliFi system does NOT require creating an account yet still allows you to download and use their iPhone app to configure the system. Apple sells and recommends the Velop system, so at least it's been vetted by them, but it still kind of creeps me out a little.

One thing that cropped up in my research is that AmpliFi HD does NOT support MU-MIMO, which Apple says is an important feature to look for in whatever system will replace your AirPorts, yet the Velop and Eero DO support MU-MIMO. Not that it's a deal-breaker in my relatively simple setup, but for users with a ton of Phillips Hue lights, Alexas, Rings, Nests, and a talking refrigerator, it might be.

Also there is some confusion about whether a pair of AmpliFi HD base stations which are connected via hardwire can use the Ethernet cable for backhaul, thereby cutting down the load on the radio channels. This would seem to be important, and it seems that while it may be achievable with a firmware update, it is not implemented at the moment. 

So I'll keep digging, but between the MU-MIMO and Ethernet backhaul issues AmpliFi HD is losing its leaderboard status.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 3, 2018)

I'm sticking with my Airport Extreme Base Station/Airport Express set-up as long as I possibly can, mainly for this reason:



charlieclouser said:


> Obviously I love how setup with AirPorts is Apple-style - one click and you're done


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 3, 2018)

Given you like the Mac configuration, I'd grab those while you can. personally I think mesh is overkill for most people unless you have a really spread out house. A friend of mine has a house that is narrow and long so he got mesh to deal with being at two ends of the house. He got the ubiquity stuff which is arguably the best. Netgear and some others have some easy to config mesh stuff, but its not Apple.

I spent a lot of time trying to research all the different mesh setups and I decided I only needed one modern router with high power wifi. My old one was having problems getting wifi reliably to the third floor and dropping out TV related stuff.

I got the TP-Link Archer C3150 and wow, so much better wifi, it easily covers my whole house with much faster wifi. I am impressed. No need for mesh. I haven't even mounted the router up on a wall yet to get the transmitter antenna's spread out optimally, its crammed into my phone patch panel in the basement and still has way better transmission then my old one. Whole house to the third floor covered. It does not have easy Apple config unfortunately.


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## dbudde (Dec 3, 2018)

There's a good comparison review of mesh wifi products here. I went with Plume based on this article and it has worked very well. Simple setup.


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## charlieclouser (Dec 4, 2018)

Looks like NetGear Orbi has the most impressive speeds and does NOT need you to set up an account to use, although Geoff said it was potentially a little trickier to tweak the settings. Still researching, but it looks like you can use two base units bridged into a single network with Ethernet connection between the two for hardwired backhaul, but setup requires a bit of "connect router A, configure, disconnect and power down router A, connect router B, configure, disconnect and power down router B, re-connect and power router A, boot and verify, connect and power router B, boot and verify" so it might be a bit of a hack job. 

And Orbi DOES support MU-MIMO - so it's ticking all the boxes at the moment for me. The saga continues...


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## niteflier5 (Dec 5, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> Looks like NetGear Orbi has the most impressive speeds and does NOT need you to set up an account to use, although Geoff said it was potentially a little trickier to tweak the settings. Still researching, but it looks like you can use two base units bridged into a single network with Ethernet connection between the two for hardwired backhaul, but setup requires a bit of "connect router A, configure, disconnect and power down router A, connect router B, configure, disconnect and power down router B, re-connect and power router A, boot and verify, connect and power router B, boot and verify" so it might be a bit of a hack job.
> 
> And Orbi DOES support MU-MIMO - so it's ticking all the boxes at the moment for me. The saga continues...



I've got an Orbi system: one router and two satellites. Setup was trivial, firmware updates are effortless, coverage is generally excellent, and the satellites have Ethernet jacks for use with wired devices. I haven't found any need for the backhaul feature at my place. Tradeoffs: no antennae to aim (centralized placement becomes important), and the glowing, color-changing signal strength indicator ring on the top of the unit is distracting.

If your network requires 801.1x authentication or bandwidth shaping or other advanced configuration, you might want to look into an enterprise-class controller-based system, like Cisco Meraki.


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## AllanH (Dec 5, 2018)

I have two Orbi's covering the house: one in the garage (incoming Charter) and the second in the boys' area. The back-haul is 5 G and can handle about 500 mb/s from what I can tell. Wi-Fi is solid on both 2.4 GHZ and 5.0 GHz and includes guest wireless on both. The meshing is fully automatic and e.g. a guest Wi-Fi authentication switches automatically between 2.4 and 5.0 radios as needed. Fully automatic. The wired LAN and the "in-house" SSID can see each other, unless I turn on isolation for the in-house SSID. I hide the in-house SSID as very few devices need to connect.

I turn on network isolation for guest wi-fi and it works like a charm. Most of our devices are on guest as little network sharing is required.

I have two teenagers gaming on guest Wi-Fi and their latency is very good with ping times sub 15 ms always, sometimes sub 10. We easily get downloads at line speeds over Wi-Fi (110 mb/s down and 5 mb/s up).

Orbi is the best Wi-Fi I've ever had. I can answer specific questions, if that's of value.

EDIT: I use the dedicated hidden Wi-Fi for backhaul. I had not realized that the wired option was available.


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## JohnG (Dec 5, 2018)

I put this on my shopping list:

[edit: Orbi was top of the list but read enough unhappy reviewers on Amazon. Probably heading back to eero even though it's more expensive]

[Current leader:

eero Home WiFi System (1 eero + 2 eero Beacon) – Advanced Tri-Band Mesh WiFi System to Replace Traditional Routers and WiFi Ranger Extenders – Coverage: 2 to 4 Bedroom Home

[Runner-up:

[NETGEAR Orbi Ultra-Performance Whole Home Mesh WiFi System - fastest WiFi router and single satellite extender with speeds up to 3 Gbps over 5,000 sq. feet, AC3000 (RBK50) -- just over $300 on Amazon.]

I'd love to add this and retain my Apple Air Port as well -- use that for music and the Orbi for the rest of the family / house. Not sure if that's possible or not.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 5, 2018)

JohnG said:


> I'd love to add this and retain my Apple Air Port as well -- use that for music and the Orbi for the rest of the family / house. Not sure if that's possible or not.



I can't tell you exactly how, but I know you can set up multiple networks. The AirPort itself has two (main and guest).

One factor I haven't seen mentioned is how big an area you need to cover. Our house is small and a single story, so an AirPort router at each end is more than enough.

On a tangent, ATT just laid fiber-optic cable in our area, and I'm really looking forward to there being competition for Internet service. Spectrum (formerly Time Warner Cable) is fine, but it's expensive and they have us over a barrel due to the monopoly.


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## keyjam (Dec 5, 2018)

You should also consider Synology RT2600 and mesh MR2200, which was just released recently (just mr2200 - RT2600 has been out a while). I replaced my airport extremes and getting great performance, the software is fantastic. Check out some of the reviews. I am able to better leverage my fiber connection and stream content off the WiFi. I also use the wired portion for direct connect of some devices which can be limited on some of the other mesh only offerings. The cost of both is still within cost of other mesh only.


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## JohnG (Dec 6, 2018)

Wall St. Journal video: "best mesh Wi-Fi Routers Explained"
https://www.wsj.com/video/series/jo...ollhouse/7D5C5BA0-5E67-4573-9950-8479F5B34C7F

so childishly simple, even I can understand it.

One of my main goals is "easy." Writing music is hard, keeping computers happy is (sometimes) maddening; I want a network that I can set up and forget, and one that the technophobe can use without agony and without my intervention.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 6, 2018)

JohnG said:


> One of my main goals is "easy."



And as Charlie wrote, that's what's great about the AirPort software.

You set up your routers and forget about them for years at a time, and who wants to remember 198.xlasdfoasdj numbers, poke around browser-based interfaces for the one freaking parameter you need to tweak...


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## JohnG (Dec 6, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> And as Charlie wrote, that's what's great about the AirPort software.



I use AirPort Time Capsule now and I generally agree the software, setup, and so on, are simple enough for a 10 year old. Or even a 40 year old... 

Only problem is, you can't "mesh" the Apple solutions, so once you add a single "extender" that's wireless, you can't add a further wireless extender beyond it. You can add more than one extender, but not an extender-of-an-extender, from what I've read.

Also, while it's _pretty_ simple, my quibble with AirPort software is that, although it's dead easy to just plug it in and have it work -- really almost zero effort -- if you want to dig under the hood, that's not as obvious as I would like. Mind you, it's even more not-obvious with Netgear. 

Consequently, the reviews of the "eero" that gush over ease of use, clarity and simplicity of its app and all that are what attract me to it. Just ordered it, actually.

Besides, I just read that the AirPort etc. are all recently discontinued by Apple. https://www.macworld.com/article/32...sule-airport-extreme-and-airport-express.html


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 6, 2018)

JohnG said:


> Besides, I just read that the AirPort etc. are all recently discontinued by Apple



Yes. But they last a long time... I hope.


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## charlieclouser (Dec 6, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> And as Charlie wrote, that's what's great about the AirPort software.
> 
> You set up your routers and forget about them for years at a time, and who wants to remember 198.xlasdfoasdj numbers, poke around browser-based interfaces for the one freaking parameter you need to tweak...



Exactly. I found out that the reason I couldn't get more than 18mpbs on downloads was because my entire ISP router > Airport setup was ELEVEN FREAKING YEARS OLD - and it literally had not been touched once, either by human hands or software, in that entire time. So I just got a couple of the last, fastest AirPort Extremes to replace my ancient, 802.11n models, and had them up and running in two minutes with zero setting up of anything other than choosing a name and password for my WiFi network. Two Airport Extremes, one on either end of the property, connected via 150' outdoor-rated Cat7 cable, a single WiFi network name, and full bars of coverage all the way down to the bottom of my (long) driveway. And 802.11ac can still pull faster than my ISP can push. Music workstations and the smart TV's are all on hardwired connections, with fresh Cat7 cabling, so the wife's 4k streaming binges won't clog up the WiFi that I need to browse vi-control on my iPad in bed!

By the time I "need" to upgrade beyond these AirPorts, perhaps there will be "Orbi Extreme" or something even better - but I hopefully won't need to upgrade until and unless I can get my ISP to push Gigabit instead of the 150 I have now, or the 300 I should have by next week.

One useful tidbit of AirPort info I found online is that if you hold "option" and click on the WiFi icon in your Mac's menubar, it will show very detailed info about each WiFi network which that Mac can see - including channel numbers, and if needed you can then go into AirPort Utility and change the channel assignments so that your AirPort isn't conflicting with your surveillance cam network or whatever. Didn't know that until now.


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## Kevin Fortin (Dec 6, 2018)

Something I just learned tonight is that if you only have Cat5 internet cables connecting modem, router, and PC, that could limit you to a top speed of 100 Mbps no matter what components you have.

Cat5e and Cat6 cables can handle faster speeds.


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## tack (Dec 6, 2018)

Cat5 is pretty resilient. Although only rated for 100Mbps you likely won't have any problems getting 1Gbps with modern hardware. My apartment is wired with cat5 for phone which I repurposed for Ethernet and it's been completely solid at 1Gpbs. But of course if you have the choice, or if you're talking about patch cables, no reason not to go with cat5e or cat6.

As an aside, I haven't used their mesh products, but I've been extremely happy and impressed with Ubiquiti's UniFi product line.


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## charlieclouser (Dec 7, 2018)

Kevin Fortin said:


> Something I just learned tonight is that if you only have Cat5 internet cables connecting modem, router, and PC, that could limit you to a top speed of 100 Mbps no matter what components you have.
> 
> Cat5e and Cat6 cables can handle faster speeds.



That's what I thought, and since I needed to replace a bunch of tattered ten-year-old Cat5 cables I got Cat7 cables, since 7 is more than 6 which is more than 5, right?. But when the guy from the ISP was here today, swapping out my ONT and routers, I asked him if we should replace the main link that comes from the Outside Network Terminal (the box that takes fiber from the pole and breaks out internet, phone, and tv) and goes to the main internet router. That cable is a ten-year-old raggedy hunk of Cat5e that was hand-wired on site during the initial install, but it's only about eight feet long. 

He said, "Nah. You're good to go up to at least 300 and probably all the way to 1Gb, even with that old thing. If it were longer, or was snaking up and down through your walls next to a bunch of AC power and stuff, maybe... but it's only punching through the wall and going six feet along the baseboard to the router, so I'd say you're good to go. The Cat6 and Cat7 standards mostly just specify better shielding from interference and fancier connectors that are a huge pain to wire up on-site." I hope he's right! 

Turns out he is a fan of my old band, and once he saw the platinum records on the wall (and I gave him a decent tip!) he gave me his cell number in case we did have to swap that cable at some point. 

Here's hoping. At any rate, I'm now downloading my Orchestral Tools purchases on two computers simultaneously, and each is giving me about 70mpbs over 802.11ac on AirPort Extreme gen6, for a total of 140mps. The speedtest website shows that I can pull about 154mpbs on a quoted service of 150 - so that's a lot better than the 18mpbs I was getting yesterday!

Finally.


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## JohnG (Dec 10, 2018)

Orbi mesh wifi hardware is on sale today at Amazon.


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