# Spaces or Seventh Heaven



## JT (Jun 14, 2018)

I want to add a convolution reverb to my setup. I've downloaded the 7th Heaven demo and like it, but everyone raves about Spaces. I didn't see a demo available unfortunately.

Does anyone have any comparisons of these two plugins? Pros or Cons? 

I don't do epic music, usually light classical, new age.

Any help would be appreciated.

JT


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Jun 14, 2018)

They're very different. Algorithmic vs convolution. I'd get both if you don't already have one of each. The basic Seventh Heaven is pretty cheap.


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## kgdrum (Jun 14, 2018)

I don’t have Spaces but I have and LOVE Seventh Heaven,it’s a beautiful reverb!
FWIW I have too many great reverbs lol 7H is one of my all time favorites.


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## JeffvR (Jun 14, 2018)

Spaces has... well, real spaces :D. So it's more of a convolution reverb than Seventh Heaven. Seventh Heaven is more a convolution of the famous Bricasti reverb, with some Algorithmic thrown in. I have both and I'd say Seventh Heaven is a really good, warm sounding reverb perfect for orchestral stuff, whether Spaces is a more realistic sounding reverb with real rooms. If I want a more distant sound I use Spaces, if I want a lush warm tail I use Seventh Heaven (or I use both).


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## bap_la_so_1 (Jun 16, 2018)

They are both great
Spaces is more of a traditional convolution reverb, while 7th Heaven is a Bricasti modeler
The biggest difference is a dongle though....


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## jules (Jun 16, 2018)

Hmm... seems to me they're both ilok and both IRs. Space is real spaces IRs and 7th heaven is bricasti IRs, which like said by gerhard is an algorythmic unit, not a real space. Both very very good and very cheap for their quality.


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## Joël Dollié (Jun 17, 2018)

My favourite reverb is Slate verbsuite classics with the BM7 expansion, and from what i understood it is exactly the same devs who made seventh heaven. Seventh heaven just seems to have less content for the cheap version but even more content for the pro version.

Either way the sound of the bricasti is unmatched in my opinion which is why i'm sticking to that for now. I'd get the seventh heaven if i were you.


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## Michael Antrum (Jun 17, 2018)

I have both. If you like to tweak - the 7th Heaven Pro is awesome - but I just can't stop myself from fiddling with it. If you want to work quickly, I just put Spaces on and it sounds great.

I tend to use Spaces more than 7th Heaven, but that's more because I am more focussed on composition and orchestration at the moment.


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## N.Caffrey (Jun 17, 2018)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> They're very different. Algorithmic vs convolution. I'd get both if you don't already have one of each. The basic Seventh Heaven is pretty cheap.



Could you tell me the difference in the way you use algorithmic (I think for Lexicon 224) and convolution (EW Spaces)?


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Jun 17, 2018)

N.Caffrey said:


> Could you tell me the difference in the way you use algorithmic (I think for Lexicon 224) and convolution (EW Spaces)?


Normally convolution if I want something very closely resembling a real room and algorithmic if I just want to extend the tail and make it more lush but both can do both so it really just depends on the material and what you want. Altiverb has some very long (~40 second) presets that I normally use for sound design type material.


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## MarcelM (Jun 17, 2018)

seventh heaven wihout a doubt!

the source melts better with the reverb and you have ALOT more control compared to spaces.

also take a look at relab vsr s24... its algo, but awesome!


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## wst3 (Jun 17, 2018)

I ended up with the lite version of Seventh Heaven, not sure I'll ever need to graduate to the full version, what I have is just wonderful, and an outstanding compliment to my other reverb plugins.

One of which is Reverberate, which is also a convolution reverb from the same folks that brought us Seventh Heaven (in fact Reverberate came first.) I've used Spaces, but ended up buying Reverberate because I liked the way it worked. Or rather it is arranged in a manner that makes sense to me.

Other reverb plugins I can't live without (which may provide an idea of where my head is at) include:

UAD Plate 140 - I use it on nearly every project - it ain't sophisticated, but it is just so cool, it sounds good on everything I throw at it.

UAD Lexicon 224 - never could afford the hardware, and didn't expect to get the software version, but I tried the demo, and you know, sometimes that's just a bad idea. This plugin gets used a lot whenever I want it to be obvious that I am using a reverb plugin.
Valhalla Vintage Verb - alliteration aside, this is like a bigger than life emulation of some of my favorite reverb effects. The bargain of the century!

2C Breeze - another case of shouldn't have tried the demo - this thing is just magical sometimes. It is probably the closest thing I have to a one-size-fits-all. The only downside (and it is minor) is that it seems to take more effort to tweak than some of the others.
Exponential Audio R4 and Nimbus - in the same league as Breeze, so nearly universal, and I think they are a little easier to use.
And even I think that sounds like a LOT of reverb plugins, but each one does something the others don't, or at least something I haven't figured out maybe?

So, if you are familiar with any of those, and you like them, you should really check out Seventh Heaven.


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## N.Caffrey (Jun 29, 2018)

hey guys, just got the lite version of Seventh Heaven! (I also have EQ Spaces). I'd be curious to know your go-to presets.


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## jamwerks (Jun 29, 2018)

Large Hall
Boston Hall 
Brass Hall
I leave the early-late parameters untouched and just adjust the reverb time.


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## N.Caffrey (Jun 29, 2018)

jamwerks said:


> Large Hall
> Boston Hall
> Brass Hall
> I leave the early-late parameters untouched and just adjust the reverb time.


Thanks! The lite version doesn't include the brass hall unfortunately. Is it possible to have the same sound by tweaking the hall parameters?


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## jamwerks (Jun 29, 2018)

Probably, those presents use the same base algorithm I believe.


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## N.Caffrey (Jun 29, 2018)

jamwerks said:


> Probably, those presents use the same base algorithm I believe.


Could you share the details of that hall (only if you have time!)


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## jamwerks (Jun 29, 2018)

Not at the computer now, but will in the coming days!


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## N.Caffrey (Jun 29, 2018)

jamwerks said:


> Not at the computer now, but will in the coming days!


Thank you, very kind of you!


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## sostenuto (Nov 14, 2018)

_Hope adding here will be preferable to new Thread !!_ 

Today Audio Deluxe has Eventide_Blackhole at $69.
Will likely pick-up Seventh Heaven or Blackhole now, but will help to see some of earlier Posters here add their Blackhole comments as well ??

(edit) any strong recommends for _BOTH_ ?


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## ManicMiner (Nov 14, 2018)

When people say they love the 7th Heaven one, are you talking about the Lite $69 version?
Do you have to buy from iLok the dongle extra yourself ?
_Can you make or import your own presets for this?_


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## Vin (Nov 14, 2018)

I'd consider https://relabdevelopment.com/product/vsr-s24/ (Relab VSR S24) as well (25% currently), it doesn't need dongle, just software iLok.


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## Parsifal666 (Nov 14, 2018)

JT said:


> I want to add a convolution reverb to my setup. I've downloaded the 7th Heaven demo and like it, but everyone raves about Spaces. I didn't see a demo available unfortunately.
> 
> Does anyone have any comparisons of these two plugins? Pros or Cons?
> 
> ...



Spaces is my default convolution, has been for many years. The presets can be a HUGE help btw.

However, I do tend to use Altiverb more for vox.


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## sostenuto (Nov 14, 2018)

Vin said:


> I'd consider https://relabdevelopment.com/product/vsr-s24/ (Relab VSR S24) as well (25% currently), it doesn't need dongle, just software iLok.



THX for remind and price heads-up ! ~$150. yet excellent alternative to consider.
_TC Electronic 6000 _……


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## Mike Fox (Nov 14, 2018)

Free 14 day demo for Seventh Heaven. Dope!


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## Parsifal666 (Nov 14, 2018)

Mike Fox said:


> Free 14 day demo for Seventh Heaven. Dope!



Hmmm, haven't even heard of that one before now...


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## kgdrum (Nov 14, 2018)

Seventh Heaven is a superb reverb, it will probably do on sale at some point either BF or the Holidays.
I have way too many reverbs,lol but SH and SH Pro are 2 of my favorites.
The developer imo is brilliant! 
Now I'm counting my pennies to get the new one(Illusion) on a intro cross grade.
The Bricasti IR's and the fusion IR tech he uses are just fu*kin AMAZING!!!


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## sostenuto (Nov 14, 2018)

kgdrum said:


> Seventh Heaven is a superb reverb, it will probably do on sale at some point either BF or the Holidays.
> I have way too many reverbs,lol but SH and SH Pro are 2 of my favorites.
> The developer imo is brilliant!
> Now I'm counting my pennies to get the new one(Illusion) on a intro cross grade.
> The Bricasti IR's and the fusion IR tech he uses are just fu*kin AMAZING!!!



THX! Was thinking to wait for LiquidSonics BlkFri announcement … maybe SH Pro.
Blackhole BF price @ Eventide site is cool.


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## kgdrum (Nov 14, 2018)

I have the Eventides they're great but Seventh Heaven and SH Pro imo are simply AMAZING!


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## j_kranz (Nov 15, 2018)

Don't sleep on Exponential Audio either... I demo'ed a ton of reverbs recently, including Seventh Heaven, and ultimately landed on R2. Don't get me wrong, Seventh Heaven sounds amazing, and everyone's ears like different things, so I don't think you can go wrong, but just wanted to add Exponential to the conversation!


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## sostenuto (Nov 15, 2018)

j_kranz said:


> Don't sleep on Exponential Audio either... I demo'ed a ton of reverbs recently, including Seventh Heaven, and ultimately landed on R2. Don't get me wrong, Seventh Heaven sounds amazing, and everyone's ears like different things, so I don't think you can go wrong, but just wanted to add Exponential to the conversation!



 Exponential R2 ?? I got it ..... almost forgot it ! 

Cool that you have these reverbs and add your impressions ! 

THX !


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## kgdrum (Nov 15, 2018)

j_kranz said:


> Don't sleep on Exponential Audio either... I demo'ed a ton of reverbs recently, including Seventh Heaven, and ultimately landed on R2. Don't get me wrong, Seventh Heaven sounds amazing, and everyone's ears like different things, so I don't think you can go wrong, but just wanted to add Exponential to the conversation!




+1 Yeah Exponential has some great reverbs, I have R2, Phoenixverb and Nimbus.
I haven't tried R4,the only Exponential effect I have that I don't "get" is Excalibur but Michael Cairnes (formerly the Lexicon lead developer) is brilliant!
We have lots of great choices on reverbs, there's just something about Seventh Heaven and SH Pro I just find so damn beautiful!


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## Bansaw (Nov 15, 2018)

Is anybody using Fabfilter Pro-R ?


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## Parsifal666 (Nov 15, 2018)

Bansaw said:


> Is anybody using Fabfilter Pro-R ?



That's a pretty darn good one. But Fabfilter does have great stuff in general imo.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Nov 15, 2018)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Spaces does tails and ER/room placement, Seventh Heaven just does tails, right?


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## ChristianM (Nov 15, 2018)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but Spaces does tails and ER/room placement, Seventh Heaven just does tails, right?


no, it's the opposite


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## j_kranz (Nov 16, 2018)

Bansaw said:


> Is anybody using Fabfilter Pro-R ?



I have it and love it, but primarily for smaller rooms/plates. It does have some hall presets but I defer to other verbs for those.


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## ManicMiner (Nov 16, 2018)

What are peoples opinion on *Valhalla Room*? I've heard of a few people using it for orchestral, - it even featured on a Christian Henson reverb comparison video.


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## Henu (Nov 16, 2018)

FF Pro-R is very good, and extremely transparent. I use it whenever I need to give a sense of space without actually noticing it. It's definitely a great all-around reverb too!


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## tokatila (Nov 16, 2018)

Exponential Audio just announced -35% sale from 23.11 onwards.


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## ManicMiner (Nov 16, 2018)

Henu said:


> FF Pro-R is very good, and extremely transparent. I use it whenever I need to give a sense of space without actually noticing it. It's definitely a great all-around reverb too!


But you'd hesitate to use it for larger spaces ?


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## Parsifal666 (Nov 16, 2018)

ManicMiner said:


> What are peoples opinion on *Valhalla Room*? I've heard of a few people using it for orchestral, - it even featured on a Christian Henson reverb comparison video.



Valhalla's stuff is uniformly great, but both Vintage and Room are standouts imo. Ubermod is another.


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## Henu (Nov 16, 2018)

ManicMiner said:


> But you'd hesitate to use it for larger spaces ?



Not necessarily, it's completely depending on which kind of larger spaces you're after. You can get pretty much everything out of it, but for some tasks you may want a bit more "vibe". It's extremely versatile and can most likely give you any sort of results you need, so I'd strongly suggest to download a demo and try it out yourself!


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## ghobii (Nov 16, 2018)

I recently was shopping for a go-to reverb, and eventually narrowed it down to Pro-R and Illusion. Both were equally good, with their own sonic flavor, but I liked the workflow of the Pro-R a little better. I already own Blackhole, and both of these reverbs can do things in that territory as well, though I find Blackhole the easy winner in these cases.


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## Parsifal666 (Nov 16, 2018)

I second that Pro-R nomination, though I use Spaces more. Because of @Henu's post I realized that I use the Pro-R mostly for my chamber music compositions. Not sure why, you can get a really good hall sound out of it.

Maybe Spaces made me lazy, the presets can at times make things too easy.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Nov 16, 2018)

My thinking is Seventh Heaven and Pro-R can be resold, Spaces cannot. If I do pick up Spaces, I'll wait for it to go on sale.


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## Ganvai (Nov 16, 2018)

I have to admit that I don't really get the fuzz about Spaces. Don't get me wrong, it's a nice reverb that seems to do it's job, but it seems I am missing the great jump of quality that everybody seems to see in it.

That said, I would go for Seventh Heavens. I have the lite version and it's pretty good, at least coming closest to what I would call a "Bricasti" vibe in a VST FX. Still, this is also not a wondermachine and can't step up to a real Bricasti, but well, it costs just a fraction of the hardware, so I guess someone could make yoursel a deal.

@ManicMiner :
Valhalla Plugins sound great and are cheap as hell, and if you like the Character they have, you can definetly go for them.


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## Quantum Leap (Nov 16, 2018)

I want to share some things relating to sound and reverb. 
Many years ago I was having endless problems making good mixes. Eventually I figured out it was my room. But during that time I was also struggling with reverb. I bought the Sony 777 sampling reverb which helped a bit, but didn’t fix my bigger sound issue. The point here is I got obsessed with sound quality.

The Sony reverb sounded better than other reverbs. But that didn’t mean it was better. It looked sexy as hell though. The limited impulses available were really nice but not real world/work tested. I never loved any of the halls. They were all very good but somehow never made an orchestra sound amazing or like a Hollywood recording. 

As time went on and I became more skilled, I started using various reverbs, impulses from altiverb and that Wizoo reverb to get the kind of sound I needed. Still not totally happy but Hamburg Cathedral from Wizoo was stellar. 

When we recorded EWQLSO I impulsed Benharoya using Keith Johnson’s mic setup and my Sony 777 sampling reverb. Those impulses were very good and it made me realize that I was onto something. The gear used to impulse a location was very important. 

After sampling some locations and doing some tests, I realized that the impulse playback software actually matters. My impulses sounded better in Space Designer than in Altiverb. Altiverb is a sound quality crusher. Sorry, it just is. Play back an impulse 100% wet and you hear what it really sounds like. They make concessions so you can edit the hell out of the impulse. Altiverb needs a process bypass button. 

During my time creating Spaces 1, I made some discoveries, but the most important thing for me was to use a rig similar to what they were using at Sony to record film scores. Big warm and clear. I got better as I went along, which is why there are a few turds in Spaces 1 and the So Cal Hall came out really well. (It was my final session)

I think my most important epiphany though was concerning early reflections. I realized that if you want the sound to sound like it’s truly in a space, you need a certain amount of early reflections. It connects the dry to the wet. This is why many of us were using TODD AO impulses along with lexicon or Hall impulses. TODD AO gave you that. It drew the sound into a bigger space. That’s what led me to my speaker array idea. Shoot the sound up and out into the Hall and you get a completely different impulse. It’s a much thicker sound with the room of the stage blending into the bigger space. Eventually I settled on firing the sound out to emulate the way each instrument or section fires sound. This way you get ER in various degrees. French horns firing backwards and percussion firing up and out would have the most ER. 

Reverb is a tough nut. It’s so hard to really hear it. I recommend ALWAYS listening to it 100% wet so you know what you are adding to the mix. If we are talking about filmscore type stuff, no one has done more than me to try and make the ultimate reverb for that. When people say that Spaces just works I smile. That was my goal and is the ultimate complement. You should never have to touch a knob besides wet. I am a reverb nut and I have drawn on some of the best ideas from smart people to make Spaces. But really it’s mostly about finding good locations and getting a good balance of early reflections.


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## Henu (Nov 16, 2018)

Quantum Leap said:


> I recommend ALWAYS listening to it 100% wet so you know what you are adding to the mix.



Yep, this is actually the absolutely _best advice ever_ concerning choosing reverbs.


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## Brian2112 (Nov 17, 2018)

Love Spaces 2, all the Valhalla stuff, Sparkverb, and.....
Melda Mturbo Reverb for “Roll your own stuff” (doesn’t get enough love if you ask me).


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## Michael Antrum (Nov 17, 2018)

Quantum Leap said:


> When people say that Spaces just works I smile.



Spaces just works.


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## axb312 (Nov 17, 2018)

Any idea when Spaces 2 will be on sale?


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## ChristianM (Nov 17, 2018)

Quantum Leap said:


> I want to share some things relating to sound and reverb.
> Many years ago I was having endless problems making good mixes. Eventually I figured out it was my room. But during that time I was also struggling with reverb. I bought the Sony 777 sampling reverb which helped a bit, but didn’t fix my bigger sound issue. The point here is I got obsessed with sound quality.
> 
> The Sony reverb sounded better than other reverbs. But that didn’t mean it was better. It looked sexy as hell though. The limited impulses available were really nice but not real world/work tested. I never loved any of the halls. They were all very good but somehow never made an orchestra sound amazing or like a Hollywood recording.
> ...



All right, but, what a shame that only SoCal has all instruments for the orchestral (Spaces 2) ...


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## Quantum Leap (Nov 17, 2018)

? Spaces 2 is full of that concept.


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## ChristianM (Nov 18, 2018)

Quantum Leap said:


> ? Spaces 2 is full of that concept.


But not with all "micros". Il you want strings (each) + brass (each) + woodwinds (each) + …, in fact : all classic orchestra, we have only SoCal


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## star.keys (Nov 24, 2018)

Quantum Leap said:


> I want to share some things relating to sound and reverb.
> Many years ago I was having endless problems making good mixes. Eventually I figured out it was my room. But during that time I was also struggling with reverb. I bought the Sony 777 sampling reverb which helped a bit, but didn’t fix my bigger sound issue. The point here is I got obsessed with sound quality.
> 
> The Sony reverb sounded better than other reverbs. But that didn’t mean it was better. It looked sexy as hell though. The limited impulses available were really nice but not real world/work tested. I never loved any of the halls. They were all very good but somehow never made an orchestra sound amazing or like a Hollywood recording.
> ...



It is amazing that we could buy your extensive research-led robust product that works straight out of the box at such low price point. When spaces II was released, I upgraded without bothering to try first


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## star.keys (Nov 24, 2018)

Quantum Leap said:


> I want to share some things relating to sound and reverb.
> Many years ago I was having endless problems making good mixes. Eventually I figured out it was my room. But during that time I was also struggling with reverb. I bought the Sony 777 sampling reverb which helped a bit, but didn’t fix my bigger sound issue. The point here is I got obsessed with sound quality.
> 
> The Sony reverb sounded better than other reverbs. But that didn’t mean it was better. It looked sexy as hell though. The limited impulses available were really nice but not real world/work tested. I never loved any of the halls. They were all very good but somehow never made an orchestra sound amazing or like a Hollywood recording.
> ...



Your brain is clearly reflected behind all your products. It is that out of the box sound and instant results which sets these apart from the rest


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## Aceituna (Aug 15, 2020)

Joël Dollié said:


> My favourite reverb is Slate verbsuite classics with the BM7 expansion, and from what i understood it is exactly the same devs who made seventh heaven. Seventh heaven just seems to have less content for the cheap version but even more content for the pro version.
> 
> Either way the sound of the bricasti is unmatched in my opinion which is why i'm sticking to that for now. I'd get the seventh heaven if i were you.



Hi Joel,
Congrats for your book.
I am now working on it.
Do you still recommend Seventh Heaven?


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## Joël Dollié (Aug 15, 2020)

Aceituna said:


> Hi Joel,
> Congrats for your book.
> I am now working on it.
> Do you still recommend Seventh Heaven?



Thank you 

Yes 100%, great reverb.


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## Aceituna (Aug 15, 2020)

Joël Dollié said:


> Thank you
> 
> Yes 100%, great reverb.



Eventhough the cheaper version?


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## Joël Dollié (Aug 15, 2020)

Aceituna said:


> Eventhough the cheaper version?



If you don't already have a good "hall" reverb it's definitely worth it. Much better than valhalla for about the same price.


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## Aceituna (Aug 15, 2020)

Joël Dollié said:


> If you don't already have a good "hall" reverb it's definitely worth it. Much better than valhalla for about the same price.



I just got the stock ones from Studio One 5


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## Rob Elliott (Dec 3, 2020)

I am in love with the transparency of FFR for my orchestral mockups (especially with CSS) - but looking at the sale for seventh heaven. Is there a GREAT reason(s) to buy the full on pro version or is the lite version going to have enough of the M7?


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## nas (Dec 3, 2020)

Rob Elliott said:


> I am in love with the transparency of FFR for my orchestral mockups (especially with CSS) - but looking at the sale for seventh heaven. Is there a GREAT reason(s) to buy the full on pro version or is the lite version going to have enough of the M7?




I had the standard version Seventh Heaven and was very pleased with it that I recently updated to the pro version during the sale. For me it's worth it as there are a ton more excellent sounding presets and the added tweak ability was something I felt I wanted to get more into. Very happy now with the pro version, but even before that, the standard version was getting a lot of use.

I can also very highly recommend Exponential Audio's (now Izotope) Phoenix verb. This is a terrific sounding very transparent algo reverb and complements Seventh Heaven very nicely. Definitely worth checking out.


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## Rob Elliott (Dec 3, 2020)

nas said:


> I had the standard version Seventh Heaven and was very pleased with it that I recently updated to the pro version during the sale. For me it's worth it as there are a ton more excellent sounding presets and the added tweak ability was something I felt I wanted to get more into. Very happy now with the pro version, but even before that, the standard version was getting a lot of use.
> 
> I can also very highly recommend Exponential Audio's (now Izotope) Phoenix verb. This is a terrific sounding very transparent algo reverb and complements Seventh Heaven very nicely. Definitely worth checking out.


Thank you for this reply. I just notice that to automate the tail I'd need the PRO version (this is something I do with certain sample libraries where releases are too short.) I don't notice that we can 'try' out the plugin though. Did I miss that?


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## JonS (Dec 3, 2020)

sostenuto said:


> _Hope adding here will be preferable to new Thread !!_
> 
> Today Audio Deluxe has Eventide_Blackhole at $69.
> Will likely pick-up Seventh Heaven or Blackhole now, but will help to see some of earlier Posters here add their Blackhole comments as well ??
> ...


Blackhole and 7th Heaven are both good! Get both when you can afford it.


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## Rob Elliott (Dec 3, 2020)

Those with 7th heaven pro - how are you automating the length of the decay. If I automate the length of the decay for the end of a phrase - THEN bring it back down within a beat or two - the verb tail 'cuts off'.

If I automate the early late slider I can get it smooth without the cutoff -- BUT -- It automatically also sets the 'decay time' to 2.5 sec. Of course I don't want that 'connected' to allow me to set decay time where I WANT IT.

Can you help?


EDIT -- duh: set a second automation lane to DECAY TIME.  (brain fart for only a bit)

Insane mock up of the M7 (I use to own the hardware)


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## Rob Elliott (Dec 3, 2020)

Bummer - still cannot automate 'decay time' without cutoff. This cannot be so. Anyone have a solution?


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