# A list composers and VI-C discussion



## Guy Rowland (Jun 17, 2013)

Spun off from this thread - http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32119

We've been lucky enough at VI-C to have Hans Zimmer become a regular contributor over recent months. I, like most people, greatly value his input, and hope he remains here dispensing wisdom, advice and good humour amid the occasional flaming arrow thrown vaguely in his own direction.

HZ is, of course, probably the most influential composer working in Hollywood today. There can be few of us who haven't been touched directly or indirectly by the stylistic influence that has permeated the industry in all sorts of unlikely far-flung places. As a community of composers - from enthusiasts, through to students, semi-pros and full time professionals, it's inevitable that we will be discussing the work of all those at the top of the tree - Zimmer, Williams, Powell, Gregson-Williams, Desplat, Elfman etc etc, both as punters and also from a professional perspective. VI-C has a long tradition of this, and it's mostly non-controversial.

Now, we have the sort of problem that can be categorised as a nice problem - a forum where folks can speak freely, debate, learn etc (a good thing) and an A-lister who is devoting a lot of time despite ridiculous schedules to the wider community (a good thing). A nice problem then, but a problem nonetheless. It's clear from the thread this was spun from that there's a lot of different views on how to handle this.

Some have suggested that, out of respect and good manners, we refrain from discussing the work of a fellow-forum member unless invited by him/her self, especially one whose work and experience outclasses practically everyone else on the board. In practice right now, that means not discussing Hans' work publicly, except in the highly unlikely scenario that rctec starts threads entitled "hey folks, what do you think of my new score"?

Others (myself included) suggest that people should continue to post their views freely, whilst being mindful to post thoughtfully. One would hope everyone posts thoughtfully anyway, but knowing the person you are discussing is part of the community certainly focuses the mind. I'm not comfortable with the notion that experience is a unique qualifier to critique and I'm always interested to here intelligent views that are outside the mainstream or received wisdom. Of course people may well weigh comments differently depending on who is saying them. Unless anyone knows otherwise, I think the right place for such discussion is here in Off Topic.

Anyway, it seems to me like one out-of-the-way place to discuss this issue might be a good idea, this keeping the clutter of the debate from elsewhere on the forum. I really hope that in time other A-listers follow Hans into the ring here, so of course this issue applies to A listers generally.


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## Tatu (Jun 17, 2013)

I moved this from the MoS -thread here.

It would actually be quite adorable to see Zimmer posting on "Member's Compositions" with a "Check my latest soundtrack to a feature film! Very epic! (with Zebra, MOOG, some samples and live instruments @ Lyndhurst AIR etc"

Overall it would be nice to give the man some room to breath here and perhaps, occasionally, enjoy the chat with "normal" guys looking for advice and tips and general musings, who have no need to post examples of their Zimmery mock-ups to every thread that he participates in. It'll just bore him away one day, I'm afraid (but could be wrong).


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## IvanP (Jun 17, 2013)

What Tatu said. 

I never said don't give your opinion, but give it with the same respect you would show to any other forum member, i.e., in a constructive way. 

But, when things go on a childlish direction, that's where, IMHO, a rethinking should take place, at least, for some moment. 

Think about this...Why do you enter this forum? 

-Procrastinate a little bit
-Check some new guys or your friends' work and have the possibility of discussing the techniques involved
-Check some new libraries AND have the possibility of discussing things with the developers, almost on a one to one basis
-From time to time, have a few of the people working at the top level participate. 
-Help some other composers. 

So...why do you think A class composers won't feel like having any of the same needs above? 

If one day you would invite a respected composer/doctor/whoever to dinner at your house with your friends or family, wouldn't you try first to make the person feel comfortable? Or would you start in childish discussions right away?
Let's imagine that you realize your guest is a nice guy and open to discussions. You would be happy to share a few drinks and conversations with him/her, right? But, what would happen if, after a while, at 6am things go a little out of topic/hand/whatever? 

Do you really think that the guy would want to come back at your place if everytime he/she goes the discussions end up in the same vein? 

Or how would you feel if you were eating your food and everybody would be staring at you with a febrile look waiting for the opportunity to get your attention? 

It wouldn't surprise me if MOS was inspired by Hans' own perception of some composers' behaviour around him (as in an alien showing himself to the rest of the world :mrgreen: )

Guy, freedom of speech is necessary, but when things get a little out of hand, some restraint may be useful for some time. 

How long did Thomas' usual posts began to fade after a Trillion threads started like "Thomas Bergersen you are a SAMPLE GOD, please listen to my mockup". 

I don't think it's a question of feeling restrained to say something, but rather to show some education. Drinks, party and open speech can come when a bond is created, just like it did with a lot of the people I mentioned in the MOS thread.


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## lux (Jun 17, 2013)

Tatu @ Mon Jun 17 said:


> Overall it would be nice to give the man some room to breath here and perhaps, occasionally, enjoy the chat with "normal" guys looking for advice and tips and general musings, who have no need to post examples of their Zimmery mock-ups to every thread that he participates in. It'll just bore him away one day, I'm afraid (but could be wrong).



I agree and consider it a matter of good education. I think there's enough mature people here to have us not violate common good sense and education regarding a member. No matter what member's accomplishments are. 

As much as one approaches to discussion here as a regular member (like Hans does from his early appearance) that should lead to a complete respect from community for that approach and he should be let free to interact with relax and normality.


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## Jdiggity1 (Jun 17, 2013)

Much ado about nothing really. I saw the original MOS thread, and i would not call it 'bashing' by any means. The thread-starter simply offered an opinion and opened it up for a discussion.

Now we have about 5+ pages of how to post and how not to post. I can't help but chuckle a little.

"Carry on" I say.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 17, 2013)

+1000


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## Tatu (Jun 17, 2013)

And I guess it's also good to remember, that Hans is a pro, and just like (almost..) every other pro here, he's heard criticism a greater part of his life and can surely live with it. And thinking of that, I can see it almost as annoying if we run around and defend him each time someone mentions him in a negative manner; that leads to these five pages of bs -situations, where the original subject is almost completely lost. And that's something that will never go away, unless we seal the borders of VIC and never allow anyone new here again..

How many new members might we estimate to get to this community this year? I'd guess that's quite a few and amongst them there will be young guys who, at some point, will realize who we have here and will go completely overboard while graving for his attention 

So what should we do then? It's a difficult situation and even a bit silly that we even have to discuss about it.. but I guess this is the internet thing.

Let's be gents and keep the conversations good; whether it's against something or for something (yeah, will never happen... :D ). It'd be a huge loss for us to lose the PRO's. And that's not just Zimmer.


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## Hannes_F (Jun 17, 2013)

Tatu @ Mon Jun 17 said:


> It would actually be quite adorable to see Zimmer posting on "Member's Compositions" with a "Check my latest soundtrack to a feature film! Very epic! (with Zebra, MOOG, some samples and live instruments @ Lyndhurst AIR etc".



HAHAHA ... haven't laughed this loud for a long time ... still laughing as I type

Friends, as I understand it everybody is invited in da club of sample wranglerz to feel comfortable, hang his hat and talk shop a bit without stone-carved rules. Live and let live, inspire and get inspired ...

Personally I would detest it if anybody would use the "if you can't say anything nice then don't say anything" policy regarding _my _work (but that might be just me). Reason: It would make me suspicius that any not-commenting people might be silently critical. Clients might even rather walk away silently than speak an open word. Conclusion: Therefore I don't like this policy too much as a strict guideline.

Much better would be the ability to give comments both positive and critical without hurting and in the overall mood of sympathy and inspiration.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 17, 2013)

Hannes_F @ 17/6/2013 said:


> Much better would be the ability to give comments both positive and critical without hurting and in the overall mood of sympathy and inspiration.



Beautifully said, Hannes!


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 17, 2013)

Respectfully, I disagree with this and with Ned's comment that Hans has things about film composition to learn from anyone here. 

His first score listed in IMDB was in 1984. That means he has been scoring films for 30 years, many of them with top orchestrators, engineers, sound designers, etc. The idea that he will learn anything here of value, other than added info about contemporary attitudes, is ludicrous.

The whole point of the member's composition forum is that members can solicit opinions when they want them. Similarly, if someone wants an opinion, they can announce the project, which in my mind, is also inviting opinions.

I rarely post lins to my work but if someone came on here and wrote, "Hey Jay,I was watching "Zorro" on Hulu and you did a good job on that show" I would simply say thanks. If they 
wrote that I did not do a good job, my reply would probably be, "Who asked you? "


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## jlb (Jun 17, 2013)

Totally agree with Jay Asher, it is embarrassing and ridiculous, people who weren't even born when Hans started, offering any sort of critique of his work. He has nothing to learn on here, and there is no chance any other A lister bothering with this site either unless people have some manners.

Hans has said some very interesting things on here and offered good advice about finding your own sound and the reality of working at the top. As I just said on the original post, there isn't a young aspiring composer in the world who would not jump at the chance of a teaboy job at RC. Yet it is considered acceptable for them to offer a critique of the owner and founders work, it is totally ridiculous.

If I was on a song writing forum and Paul McCartney, Paul Simon, Brian Wilson etc popped in, I wouldn't dream of making comments on their work.

JLB


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 17, 2013)

Then again, there's nothing worse for me than a group of composers congratulating each other, never daring an honest critique, for fear of getting some back. Academia, anyone?
Also, when I used to teach, in another life, I found that I could always learn from the newbies, as they sometimes had a fresh approach to a compositional or technical problem.


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## IvanP (Jun 17, 2013)

I have also to agree with you, Ned, BUT, there's a difference in making a constructive critique and being an ass

(quoting MOS...

" - from where I come from, this means hope. 
- Well, here it's an "ass". " :mrgreen: " )

It seems as if the latest trend when it comes to commenting on a thread where Hans is participating has been in acting on extremes: either über praising or making silly-childish points.

I have a friend who studied at Berklee and he told me that everybody would comment on the other composers in the room's works and that he always learned a lot of these sessions. 

But there's a difference between making a constructive comment and being hypocrites or incredibly nice, bashing someone's work without being asked or seen a movie, or, in this particular case, letting the thread turn into a high school debate. 

When this happens, some thinking should be done, at least, in order to have people engage into thinking just a little bit before posting, as in what would you feel if you'd deliver such a reply either to yourself or to another fellow member whom you respect (also called, sometimes, "moderation")

After that thinking, go back to freedom of speech if you wish, which I totally support. Nobody wants a soundsonline forum here, but some posts from so called pros have been lately pretty embarrassing.


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## Guy Rowland (Jun 17, 2013)

What an interesting debate...



jlb @ Mon Jun 17 said:


> there isn't a young aspiring composer in the world who would not jump at the chance of a teaboy job at RC.



That's quite a revealing comment imo. Although I don't doubt that teaboy job would have plenty of applicants, I sure don't agree it would be everyone. (would make a fun VI-C poll  )

In truth, I'm not really sure how much Hans can "learn" from VI-C'ers, though I'd have thought if he didn't find some of the discussion here interesting at least, he wouldn't bother contributing at all. I'm not sure a "we are not worthy" attitude is particularly helpful on either side....

Ivan, I think most of us agree that embarrassing posts are, well, embarrassing. And indeed that can come from either side. I'd hope what we're discussing here is whether or not its appropriate to have constructive, if sometimes critical, posts regarding the work of a composer of Hans' calibre. With respect to Jay (and to be fair everyone I can think of at VI-C other than rctec) he's not at the level of great influence that Hans is, which makes discussion of that music more important. The work of the A-listers transcends normal casual discussion and preferences as it affects us all directly or indirectly. As composers, discussion is as inevitable as it is universal - at question is exactly how we're best to engage with it here.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 17, 2013)

To say that I am not as influential as Hans is a colossal understatement, and it would be fair to also say I am not as smart or as talented or as bold.

All the more reason that I would NEVER, under any circumstances, critique his music in a public forum where what is written can be copied and pasted all over the internet. This is not Las Vegas. WHat happens here, doesn't stay here.


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## guydoingmusic (Jun 17, 2013)

Everyone can play Pro Football and coach the game better than anyone else when their favorite team is losing and making mistakes... all while sitting on their couch in their air-conditioned house...

The point is, that other than Hans, none of us have had to handle the responsibility/pressure of a blockbuster film. It's hard to offer advice to a guy in that position. HZ seems to be a humble guy, and I for one am very thankful for his presence on this forum. But that doesn't give me the right to tell him how he should have done it.

Gone are the days of apprenticeship it seems. Everyone bypasses the learning phase and goes right into the teaching phase. I sat with a mixing engineer/producer for 2 years to learn. I didn't open my mouth. Even when I saw the guy doing something for 30 mins, that I could have accomplished in 3. It wasn't my place. He had his methods and ways. And at the end of the day, he had his own studio, A-List clients, and a set of golden ears. I had none of those. Whether I would have been right or wrong, it was not my place to critique anything. 

I realize some of us have had our successes, but come on... just like @jlb said: who wouldn't want the opportunity to work at RC?


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## Ganvai (Jun 17, 2013)

Hey guys,

I know this is a very difficult topic, but let me say this:

When you are in a restaurant and the food just doesn't taste good to you, you can say it does not taste good, even if the cook is a hundered years old and grilled steaks before you was born. this is what is called taste and it's a very subjectiv thing that just depends on the person itself and not on any other aspect of qualification in his life.

I know, cooking is not making music but you always have the chance to say: Hey I don't like that or that. 

It's up to the one who got the critics how to deal with that. He can find it helpfull, he can find it totally superfluous. But you can never force him to like something.

Billions of people hear music made by HZ, some like it, some not. It would be very strange if there would be no one here, who doens't like Hans music. Can't see why they have not the right to say it, as long as they do it with the kind of respect everyone of us deserves, no matter if it's some beginner like me, posting something in Members Composition or Hans Zimmer releasing an AAA score on cd.

Saying that you don't like something must be okay in a forum like this. Talking about someones opinion must be okay in a forum like this. We could talk about the quality of Chesburgers, but this is a forum about music made with sample libs, with a strong focus on soundtracks, so it must be okay to talk about a AAA soundtrack-release. That's why a forum is there: to discuss things! 

If I remember rightly, the thread about the MOS-Soundtrack was not ranting, it was a very harsh critique, but not disrespectful. And it was a critique that not many of us did share. But this must be allowed in a forum. It would be great if everything that is posted would be totally the meaning of everyone else here, but then there would be no need for this forum 

Also I think, Hans Zimmer is long enough in this business to know how to deal with critics. This is not meant disrespectfully. I'm happy Hans shares this forum with us (even he called me an idiot) and I hope he will do this for a long time, but I think there is no need to handle him with kid gloves.

Just give him the same kind of respect, every member in this forum deserves. RESPECT should be the rules for any critics, not anything else.

Just my 2 cents.

Best regards,
Jan


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## guydoingmusic (Jun 17, 2013)

Ganvai @ Mon Jun 17 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I know this is a very difficult topic, but let me say this:
> 
> ...



There's a complete difference in offering the cook at your local McDonald's advice on how to cook your cheeseburger better, and offering Gordon (f***ing) Ramsay advice on how to manage his restaurants, tv career, personal life, etc. are 2 different things altogether. 

(read my above post)


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 17, 2013)

No, no, no, Brad. EVERYONE is equal

I may vomit.


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## Guy Rowland (Jun 17, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Jun 17 said:


> No, no, no, Brad. EVERYONE is equal
> 
> I may vomit.



Hmm, not sure anyone here has suggested all are equal - imo throwing in straw men doesn't advance the discussion. The question is not "are we all equal", the question is how we deal with the obvious inequality (and variety of taste). My summary (anyone feel free to add / amend):

CAMP A

It is disrespectful for anyone to volunteer any critical comments, regardless of how polite, well argued or sincerely held

CAMP B

It's reasonable to volunteer a critical comment if it is polite, well argued and sincerely held, regardless of the experience or track record of the poster.

Unless Frederick / The Mods issue a three line whip (highly unlikely), one could argue the discussion is moot as people will just say or not say whatever they want. However, the idealist in me thinks it would be good if there was at least an attempt to talk it out raising the hope of enough tolerance of other views to stop this debate barrelling out yet again into every thread concerning Hans' music. Which, imo, is more off-putting than anything.


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## Ganvai (Jun 17, 2013)

@ Brad: I'm not talking about giving an advice, I'm just talking about saying if you like it or not? There was no advice to Hans doing something better, it's just about saying if he likes the music or not. And nobody knows it best if I like something or not, than me. That's a fact 

Even if Gene Roddenberry is a genius in writing Science Fiction, it's up to you if you like Star trek or not.

@ Jay:
No Jay, we are all very very different. But dividing people into people that have the right to say what they think and people that don't have the right to say what they think might be an old-fashioned point of view 

As I wrote before: As long it's not going to be rude, everyone can write what he thinks. That doesn't say that it is clever to write everything into this forum. I totally agree with Jay that sometimes it might be clever to refuse to write your very personal opinion. I totally agree with you, that it might look a little bit unpreofessional if you post something like "I don't like what XXX does because I just don't like it". But if he doens't care about that, it's totally okay.


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## germancomponist (Jun 17, 2013)

Jdiggity1 @ Mon Jun 17 said:


> Much ado about nothing really. I saw the original MOS thread, and i would not call it 'bashing' by any means. The thread-starter simply offered an opinion and opened it up for a discussion.
> 
> Now we have about 5+ pages of how to post and how not to post. I can't help but chuckle a little.
> 
> "Carry on" I say.



Sorry, but this is not true. It seems that you don't know that the other thread started with an ugly headline and the first post also was not formulated nice. Later, the thread opener exchanged the headline and also his first post into the opposite. .... .

So, people who do not know this can get confused quickly by reading the posts there. 

..


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## JonFairhurst (Jun 17, 2013)

I recently met San Francisco 49ers Pro Bowl safety Ronnie Lott at an event. Being a football fan, I have opinions. I've studied the game so I have some knowledge too.

But Lott is one of the best to have played at his position. This was my opportunity to ask and listen. I'd like to think that my (hopefully insightful) questions and respect towards him earned a good impression and contributed to an enjoyable evening. 

It would have been way out of line for me to tell him how the game should be played. Had I made the conversation about how much I know about the game, it would have been transparently self-serving and would only demonstrate insecurity. Had I ranted on a soapbox, it would only have meant hearing less from the true expert in the room.

At one point, I asked about the new, controversial rule making it illegal for the running back to lower his head in the open field. Lott was instantly defensive, expecting me to rant about the rule change. Instead, I told him that I wanted to learn from the expert. He then told us that he was on the rules committee and the next fifteen minutes were deeply compelling as he shared the inside story.

I think that's what we want from the experts. We want to hear their stories. We don't want to hear them get defensive as other's opinions suck up all the air.

BTW, when Ronnie Lott turns picks somebody in the room to stand in as his example opponent, it looked really intimidating. The man still has fire in his eyes.


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## Darthmorphling (Jun 17, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Jun 17 said:


> No, no, no, Brad. EVERYONE is equal
> 
> I may vomit.



It's amazing to me how you always see things in strict black and white terms. There is no gray in Jay's world.

Respectfully, not everyone is equal when it comes to their abilities. However, just because you are accomplished does not mean you are perfect. In my 16 years of teaching, I have learned that truly great teachers "borrow" ideas from everyone. You can learn from student teachers, 3rd year teachers, and 30 year veterans. 

Every year I learn things from my students. Are they my intellectual equals? Of course not. I have had students whose IQ would certainly surpass mine, but that does not mean they cannot learn from me. 

Teaching is a puzzle that needs to be solved on a daily basis, and the solution shifts everyday as well. Some days, I have no issues, other days there are students who are not grasping the concepts no matter how I try and reteach. When a large percentage of my class is not "getting it" I do not try and force the issue. I take a step back and re-evaluate what I did and see if I can formulate a different approach. Most of the time it is simply a matter of me taking the wrong approach, and the students not quite being ready for it. 

If I have one or two students who are still not grasping it, I will pull them aside and try and narrow down what is tripping them up. However, one thing I have learned is that sometimes the best teachers are the students. Sometimes it takes a kid to teach a kid. Does that make them better teachers? No. Does it make me less of a teacher? No. What is does do is show that even though I am knowledgeable in my craft, I am always open to new ideas by people that are not as qualified as me.

I seriously doubt that Hans Zimmer is going to listen to the majority of people on here and come away with any new knowledge. However, I would bet that even as accomplished as he is, he still finds inspiration, and techniques from his less accomplished subordinates. He may have even found inspiration from a few on the forum. That's what makes Hans a brilliant composer.

What I find interesting is that many here are so steadfast to cling to their "elite" status as professionals, who have had many years of formal music education, that they have put themselves in this little box. Outside the box are all the unwashed masses, and inside the box are the truly worthy.

If you are in a contained environment, you can all congratulate each other on your accomplishments to your heart's desire and feed each other's egos. However, without any new air supply, you will eventually suffocate from all of the hot air that the inhabitants are exhaling. People outside the box will always have fresh air even though the air may be polluted with bad ideas. There will always be new ideas outside the box to keep things fresh.

Now Jay, in a lot of cases you seem to be a pretty humble guy, and I agree with some of your opinions. In this one instance your arrogance shines through.

Don


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 17, 2013)

I do not consider myself "elite". I DO consider Hans "elite."

If he has anything he feels he still needs to learn, he will no doubt learn it from even more challenging projects and hard work. And he could learn more in a day spent simply talking about it with a colleague like James Newton Howard than in a month here.

I know you guys don't like to hear it, but it is just true IMHO.


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## jlb (Jun 17, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Mon Jun 17 said:


> What an interesting debate...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If Hans even mentioned a tea boy job going at RC, he would need a small football stadium to hold the applicants, and everybody knows it.

JLB


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## Greg (Jun 17, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Jun 17 said:


> The idea that he will learn anything here of value, other than added info about contemporary attitudes, is ludicrous.



Thats a flawed assumption.. Theres always something to learn from anyone, no matter how successful or not they are. Especially in the world of creativity, everyone has their own perception and hopefully their own voice.



EastWest Lurker @ Mon Jun 17 said:


> I do not consider myself "elite". I DO consider Hans "elite."
> 
> If he has anything he feels he still needs to learn, he will no doubt learn it from even more challenging projects and hard work. And he could learn more in a day spent simply talking about it with a colleague like James Newton Howard than in a month here.
> 
> I know you guys don't like to hear it, but it is just true IMHO.



How can you make these assumptions?.. Bit ridiculous

As for critiquing scores here.. why would it be frowned upon. At least if someone critiques you here, you have a chance to defend yourself. Opposed to a random blog.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 17, 2013)

Greg @ Mon Jun 17 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Mon Jun 17 said:
> 
> 
> > The idea that he will learn anything here of value, other than added info about contemporary attitudes, is ludicrous.
> ...



1. Egalitarian bovine scatology IMHO.

2. I read what is written and listen to pieces that are posted. That is how I make those assumptions. 

i also assume you need to use a spell checker for "rediculous."


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## Greg (Jun 17, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Jun 17 said:


> 1. Egalitarian bovine scatology IMHO.
> 
> 2. I read what is written and listen to pieces that are posted. That is how I make those assumptions.
> 
> i also assume you need to use a spell checker for "rediculous."



Making those assumptions for yourself is totally fine.

Trying to pawn them off so matter of factly onto Hans.. makes me cringe. It also belittles everyone here. 

Oops thanks for catching that spelling mistake! You forgot to capitalize that 'I' by the way  Lets turn this forum into a proper internet troll fest full of grammar nazis shall we?


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## Darthmorphling (Jun 17, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Jun 17 said:


> I do not consider myself "elite". I DO consider Hans "elite."
> 
> If he has anything he feels he still needs to learn, he will no doubt learn it from even more challenging projects and hard work. And he could learn more in a day spent simply talking about it with a colleague like James Newton Howard than in a month here.
> 
> I know you guys don't like to hear it, but it is just true IMHO.



Which is why I said that I doubt he would learn anything from the majority of people here. I do think if someone posted something new to him, that he is open to learning from them regardless of their experience.

I never critique people's compositions simply because impersonally do not feel my experience warrants it. The only exceptions are in our collaborative learning projects. It doesn't mean I won't say when something resonates with me, or doesn't. 

Also, I am being sincere in saying this, please go to our collaborative learning threads and critique the submissions. We could use someone who does this professionally to help us learn. I know you have stated you don't critique others work, and I respect that, but it would be very welcome.

Don


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 17, 2013)

It is not belittling people to say that they have far less wisdom about film scoring to impart than a guy like James Newton Howard. It is to my mind simply obviously empirically true to anyone who is not blinded by what they philosophically want to cling to than to look at the world as it actually is.


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## Darthmorphling (Jun 17, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Jun 17 said:


> It is not belittling people to say that they have far less wisdom about film scoring to impart than a guy like James Newton Howard. It is to my mind simply obviously empirically true to anyone who is not blinded by what they philosophically want to cling to than to look at the world as it actually is.



I agree with you on this. Where I disagree with you is that someone like James Newton Howard could not possibly learn something new from someone who is not at the same, or higher, level than he is. And this is not to say that everyone who is below his level will have something to teach him, but there is always something new to learn.

When you are so blinded to what you believe, and your own world view, you cannot possibly see the world as it truly is. Lots of colors, ideas, and viewpoints. All a little overlapping and all a little bit right/wrong. 

Politics, religion, weather, and now musical qualifications, are things we should never discuss. :mrgreen: o-[][]-o


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 17, 2013)

Darthmorphling @ Mon Jun 17 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Mon Jun 17 said:
> 
> 
> > It is not belittling people to say that they have far less wisdom about film scoring to impart than a guy like James Newton Howard. It is to my mind simply obviously empirically true to anyone who is not blinded by what they philosophically want to cling to than to look at the world as it actually is.
> ...


 
Spare me the New Age-kumbaya stuff, please 

While there is indeed always something new to learn, and it is indeed theoretically _possible_ that JNH and HZ could learn _something_ from those far less accomplished on musical things, regarding the very specific craft of creating a good film score, the likelihood is miniscule.


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## reid (Jun 17, 2013)

I love it when you present opinion as fact, Jay. Always good for a giggle.

(And your use of the hyphen in your previous post was incorrect - thought you'd want to know.)


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## Darthmorphling (Jun 17, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Jun 17 said:


> Spare me the New Age-kumbaya stuff, please
> 
> While there is indeed always something new to learn, and it is indeed theoretically _possible_ that JNH and HZ could learn _something_ from those far less accomplished on musical things, regarding the very specific craft of creating a good film score, the likelihood is miniscule.



I guess we'll just continue to agree to disagree then.

P.S. I have never been accused of being new age. Very interesting indeed. I guess Libertarianish, metal heads can be a little philosophical _-)


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## edhamilton (Jun 17, 2013)

"Post as if your really there, in person, really having a conversation with them. Lose the bravado of hiding behind the internet and/or screen name."

Someone wrote that once and it seems like a no brainer.

If your hanging with a legend, would you ever, under any circumstances feel free to offer your unsolicited critique of their work?
If you answer yes to that don't wonder why your phone isn't ringing and your career is going nowhere.

I didn't read the thread thats in controversy so I'm not taking shots any anyone.

If I was hanging with Hans, never, not even under massive influence of alcohol or drugs would I feel free to offer an opinion of his work. So why would I do it in an internet forum?


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 17, 2013)

reid @ Mon Jun 17 said:


> (And your use of the hyphen in your previous post was incorrect - thought you'd want to know.)



Really? How? It does not violate any of these as far as I can see.
http://www.grammarmudge.cityslide.com/a ... 8/2805.htm


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 17, 2013)

edhamilton @ Mon Jun 17 said:


> "Post as if your really there, in person, really having a conversation with them. Lose the bravado of hiding behind the internet and/or screen name."
> 
> Someone wrote that once and it seems like a no brainer.
> 
> ...



This is precisely the point I have repeatedly made. The answer I always get is "because it is a forum."

Not enough of a reason for me, but we are in the minority.


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## Greg (Jun 17, 2013)

I fail to see the argument here.. 

This IS a forum to discuss your opinions about music. Why would it be out of line to discuss a soundtrack that was released to the public? In my opinion, when you release anything to the public, you also accept that it will be critiqued and those people are allowed to express their opinions.

If you address the composer directly because you know he is here a la: "HEY '____' I hated your soundtrack!'

Then of course that is out of line..


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## jlb (Jun 17, 2013)

"If I was hanging with Hans, never, not even under massive influence of alcohol or drugs would I feel free to offer an opinion of his work. So why would I do it in an internet forum?"

I could not agree more with this

JLB


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## re-peat (Jun 17, 2013)

guydoingmusic @ Mon Jun 17 said:


> (...) who wouldn't want the opportunity to work at RC?


I wouldn’t. They’d have to lobotomize me first before I would ever nod affirmatively to an invitation of working there. (Granted, a most unlikely contingency.)

But I wanted to talk about something else. What, I wonder foolishly, is one to do who doesn’t particularly like the “Man Of Steel” soundtrack or who doesn’t drool over every single note and sound that Mr. Zimmer releases onto the world? Unbelievable as it may seem, these foul and depraved creatures do exist, you know, and they roam amongst us. Their number may be small, yes, and most of them prefer to remain safely invisible, but they’re here. Take me for instance. I didn’t and don’t derive any memorable musical pleasure from the “Man Of Steel” soundtrack ― saying that I had to put in some superman-like effort in order to make it all the way through to the end, is an uncharacteristically tactful understatement ―, and I can’t say that my music collection contains many albums in the Z-section other than the complete Zappa canon and a selection of Zorn. Now, can this still be said out loud when on the V.I. premises, is the question, or should such opinions remain carefully cloaked henceforth?
I ask because not fainting adoringly after Mr. Zimmer’s every utterance (verbal or musical) seems to have become the equivalent of automatically being disrespectful to Him in person and to the community in general. Which, and let’s be sane and intelligent for a mere second, is a somewhat worrying evolution and one not entirely devoid of a distinctly fascist odour, if you ask me. 

I want to be able to say ― and it should never be a courageous or risky effort saying it ― that I’m not particularly interested in the work of Mr. Zimmer. (My favourite Zimmer soundtrack was the one that had long stretches of it composed by Nino Rota.) Never was, probably never will be. For strictly musical reasons, mind you. I do hear why it works as perfectly as it does (that’s also precisely why I grow so tired of it so quickly), and I do admire the exceptional dramaturgical instinct, the tireless sonic explorer and the ever curious and self-refreshing musical mind at work, but … I never return to any of Mr. Zimmer’s music with the intention of satisfying a purely musical hunger. 
Musically, we are not all wired the same. And I hope there’s still room here for those that are wired a bit differently. If not, the stranglehold that the Zimmer-cult is beginning to have on this forum is getting rather unhealthy. (A member being made to feel uncomfortable enough to change his public opinion on a Zimmer-related subject, as the OP was in the MOS-thread, that’s something that doesn’t bode well for V.I.’s future, it seems to me.)

Surely, I can’t be the only one who’s getting increasingly annoyed, bored and disappointed by the _rigor zimmeris_ that this once so free-spirited, open-minded, warm-blooded and vivacious place seems to have frozen into?

Not saying V.I. is dead, of course it isn’t, but lately, it does begin to zmell a bit funny in places.

_


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 17, 2013)

Correct me if I am wrong, Piet, but you are someone who I believe is on record as not being much interested in scoring films and really is only interested in film scores as to whatever musical value you see or do not see in them, correct?

i want to be clear on this before I respond.


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## Guy Rowland (Jun 17, 2013)

jlb - told you not EVERYONE wants to be a teaboy at RC!


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## NYC Composer (Jun 17, 2013)

edhamilton @ Mon Jun 17 said:


> "Post as if your really there, in person, really having a conversation with them. Lose the bravado of hiding behind the internet and/or screen name."
> 
> Someone wrote that once and it seems like a no brainer.
> 
> ...



So, you wouldn't feel free to offer positive, affirming opinions of his work? I'll take a leap here and say you would. If you had negative opinions, though, probably not- for two reasons:

1. It's not all that polite to tell someone who's not an intimate chum that you don't like his work.

2. You most likely would not be "hanging" with Hans, you'd be meeting him with his indulgence. That's usually not the best of situations to start offering your negative opinions (although I will say that massive amounts of alcohol or drugs do seem to liberate people from these petty constraints) :wink: 

So, to the crux- what is proper decorum on a forum? In my opinion, reaching great heights in your professsion means that people will have varying opinions about your work and feel more free to share them, especially in a discussion based venue. I am VERY much in favor of keeping the expressions of those opinions civil and polite, and I'm against "bashing" in any form about anyone's work. That said, I'd rather feel a "forum" is a place where people can state negative opinions if they choose, and that members should speak up if they are offended by the tone of them, but the opinions should remain as part of free expression, and people can assign their merit themselves without any thundering from the pulpit as to what is meritorious or not.

I'd like a respectful forum. I don't want a bright, shiny, happy, soma-powered one.


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## guydoingmusic (Jun 17, 2013)

To clarify what I meant earlier...

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion whether they like something or not. That wasn't what I was responding to at all. I'm sure A-List composers are all aware, that not everyone will like everything they do. If you haven't figured that out yet with your own music, then you are in for a looooooooong and lonely ride. 

It is however extremely rude to try and offer ANY A-List composer advice on how he should do things differently. Whatever that individual has done to get where they are, whether it be luck or accomplishments, they are there and we are not. I, for one, do not have a blockbuster movie to score this week... just saying.

My gripe is that nowadays, some people think they are an expert all of the sudden in the movie business. Bypass paying the dues, and working your way up the career ladder. Just straight to the place where your opinion is so valuable that the entire world, and especially the A-List composers we speak of, could not live without. That in itself is pretentious. 

It is also rude to completely bash the hell out of someone's art... just because you yourself are "over zimmerized" at the moment. No, I don't like everything that HZ does or writes. But the director didn't hire me did he/she? They hired HZ. People hire me for MY sound.


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## JonFairhurst (Jun 17, 2013)

Criticism is always tricky.

My wife is a (sometimes) author. I've learned (kind of) when and how to give criticism.

Step 1: Ask if the creative person even wants criticism. Maybe they're sharing their work in progress just to share. In that case, I've learned to keep my yap shut as not to derail them.

Step 2: Ask what feedback they want. Maybe a composer wants feedback about how a theme works. Or they want feedback on the mix. Or they want to know if you hear anything out of order. On the final draft of a novel, the author might want a spelling and grammar check, not a critique of the dialog.

Step 3: Apply common sense. When asked to provide feedback on the content, share how YOU reacted to and felt about it. Don't come down from on high to tell them HOW IT IS. And above all, do not tell the creative person how to "fix it". That's like taking away their ownership.

In college, I remember sharing a song that I had written with an English major. She took my lyrics sheet, said it could be improved - and proceeded to erase some lines and write her own! Not helpful!

It's not just A-listers. Everybody deserves respect when it comes to criticism of their art.


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## G.R. Baumann (Jun 17, 2013)

ok, just briefly, I am in no ones camp to begin with. 

We talk about music, right? 

Ever since I started to become involved professionally at the tender age of 10 there was never any boundaries on talking about music and/or composers, whether written by teachers, students, bloody Richard Wagner or Frank Zappa.

*Or do we talk about Glamor?*

Right, oh well, I leave that up to Theodor:



> As such, the function of glamor may have originally been associated with a sort of advertising which strove artificially to produce demands in a social setting not yet entirely permeated by the market. The post‐competitive capitalism of the present day uses for its own purposes devices of a still immature economy. Thus, glamor has a haunt‐ ing quality of historic revival in radio, comparable to the revival of the midway circus barker in today's radio barker who implores his unseen audience not to fail to sample wares and does so in tones which arouse hopes beyond the capacity of the commodity to fulfill. All glamor is bound up with some sort of trickery. Listeners are nowhere more tricked by popular music than in its glamorous passages. Flourishes and jubilations ex‐ press triumphant thanksgiving for the music itself — a self‐eulogy of its own achieve‐ ment in exhorting the listener to exultation and of its identification with the aim of the agency in promoting a great event.



Source: http://audio.uni-lueneburg.de/seminarwebseiten/adorno/material/On Popular Music.pdf

But to have a thread to talk about whether we should talk about it at all, and if we talk about it then how we should talk about it is a little too... oh well... Let's not talk about it.

:wink:


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## Guy Rowland (Jun 18, 2013)

guydoingmusic @ Tue Jun 18 said:


> It is however extremely rude to try and offer ANY A-List composer advice on how he should do things differently.



This is the crux of my frustration with parts of this debate:

*No-one is offering any A List composer any advice*

Least not that I've seen. If a member says something critical to other members in an open discussion, that's not offering the person who created it advice - it's not how forums work. 

It's analogous to the issue of sample developers. Two scenarios:

SCENARIO A

There's an open thread about Brilliant Strings by Great Developer (who contribute to the forum), and A Poster says "gee, I don't think they're very brilliant".

SCENARIO B

Great Developer have a Commercial Announcement thread about Brilliant Strings, and A Poster says "gee, you should have recorded those strings totally differently".

Now Scenario B does happen here quite a bit, but personally I think critical comments are better placed in a neutral thread. In the case of an A List composer, scenario B doesn't really exist (Hans hasn't started any threads in Commercial Announcements saying "hey my new album is out"), So we're really in scenario A. And the point is - in that case the comments are not directly addressed to the developer / composer, it's a discussion between members.


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## Dean (Jun 18, 2013)

Guys,

This forum has taken a strange turn,instead of talking about,(or sometimes baiting HZ) now its talking about talking about HZ.He is just a man like any other who sometimes chimes in and shoots the breeze,all this fuss,(good and bad),must be very off putting when you just want to relax and switch off,..just let it be,no? 

D


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## Guy Rowland (Jun 18, 2013)

Dean @ Tue Jun 18 said:


> Guys,
> 
> This forum has taken a strange turn,instead of talking about,(or sometimes baiting HZ) now its talking about talking about HZ.He is just a man like any other who sometimes chimes in and shoots the breeze,all this fuss,(good and bad),must be very off putting when you just want to relax and switch off,..just let it be,no?
> 
> D



Well I agree - the last thing Mr Z needs is to read all this stuff on any and every thread concerning him. The MOS thread ran to 5 pages in a day or two, mostly about what folks should or shouldn't be saying, which seemed kinda crazy. The purpose behind this then is that since this stuff keeps cropping up in the (many) threads about Hans' music, it might be a good idea to try to keep it in one place (probably naivety) - also it might be helfpul in general when dealing with any other A listers who decide to drop in. Then if it kicks off in any other threads in the future, hopefully someone can just link here :?

Actually I kinda hope that Hans doesn't bother reading this one and just lets us figure it out for ourselves.... if the other threads all calm down as a result it will have served a purpose.


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## Jdiggity1 (Jun 18, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Tue 18 Jun said:


> *No-one is offering any A List composer any advice*



THANK YOU! Was about to say the same thing.



germancomponist said:


> It seems that you don't know that the other thread started with an ugly headline and the first post also was not formulated nice. Later, the thread opener exchanged the headline and also his first post into the opposite. .... .



In fact, I did see the original post, and while I don't remember exactly what was said, I definitely do not remember anything out of order. The poster expressed their disinterest in the soundtrack.
I almost did the same until I noticed the angry mob with pitchforks...


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## toomanynotes (Jun 20, 2013)

This reads like an episode of Dawson's creek, think i gonna puke.

I played in a band for many years, had to send cd's for reviews...and boy did some of them suck ass...very annoying at first...then it dawned upon me...regardless of how 'popular' you think your music is...some people would rather wipe their butt with it. 

I get it now. i live with that. No big deal. 

And lets not get too up ourselves here...At present Music for motion picture is viewed as the lowest of the music composition art form. Regardless of how much money you make.

Mind if you can sell out the Royal Albert hall for 7 days...you're doing good i figure. Not that anyone is.

*******
Right now i'm listening to 'The Ghost and Mrs Muir' Herrmann. B


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## KEnK (Jun 20, 2013)

re-peat @ Mon Jun 17 said:


> ...the stranglehold that the Zimmer-cult is beginning to have on this forum is getting rather unhealthy...
> 
> Surely, I can’t be the only one who’s getting increasingly annoyed, bored and disappointed by the _rigor zimmeris_ that this once so free-spirited, open-minded, warm-blooded and vivacious place seems to have frozen into?...



I'm put off by adulation, and not particularly fond of repetition or over used devices.
So I invariably avoid these threads.
There is little to gain in a conversation with a zealot w/ whom one's opinions differ.

And trying to discuss something w/ a group of zealots?
No thank you. 

But yes Peat, you're not alone here.

k


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## dcoscina (Jun 20, 2013)

I appreciate Hans' music more than I used to. I'm not vacillating on that. However if one were to ask what my favourite music pieces were right off hand it would be these
The Rite of Spring
Das Lied Von der Erde
My Favourite Things (Coltrane version)
Enigma Variations (Nimrod)
Fahrenheit 451 (Herrmann)
Superman the Movie

And my favourite composer is Sergei Prokofiev. 

Obviously music preferences are guided by one's background. I was raised on jazz and Liszt's Les Preludes. Harmonic complexity just does it for me. That's why Prokofiev often delights my ears as he had atypical chord movement and resolutions. That is why I'm often dismayed by the evolution of film music as a whole- because it has largely been reduced to simple diatomic or modal frameworks, used many many times over and over. I wouldn't say that film scores have utilized minimalism in the way it was originally conceived. There isn't the rhythmic complexity that it offered in leiu of advanced harmony (which I think was the whole point if I'm not mistaken).

As far as the topic at hand, its interesting how people make assertions based on little knowledge of our fellow forum members as far as their experience and knowledge. Some guys here might not have scored huge grossing films but have the equivalent of a phd in music training and understanding. I know there's a whole slew of guys who know their stuff and I've always delighted reading their posts when a topic about the nuts and bolts of music is discussed. That's when I find this forum at its best because it IS musicians having a terrific dialogue about technique (which is also less opinion based and more applied knowledge). So the whole "accomplished" qualifier for one to speak their mind is a little contrived in my opinion. 

I will just add that it's best not to assume or presume about the musical constitution of any fellow forum member. Like saying one shouldn't offer an opinion on MOS because we weren't even born when Hans was in the industry. Some of us weren't far behind as far as getting started with music and technology and some of us might find a statement like the above patronizing. 

But, as I said in the other thread, I'm offering no opinion good or bad on any Zimmer scores on tis forum in the future. I will save it for reviews on Film Score Monthly.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 20, 2013)

dcoscina @ Thu Jun 20 said:


> But, as I said in the other thread, I'm offering no opinion good or bad on any Zimmer scores on tis forum in the future. I will save it for reviews on Film Score Monthly.



Which I think is the appropriate place. 

I share your love for Prokofiev btw. Playing some of the "Visions Fugitive" in college exposed me to some non-conventional yet tonal harmonies that I found very exciting.


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## dcoscina (Jun 20, 2013)

Nice! I don't think I ever met a Prokofiev piece I disliked. If you can find his early cantata They Are Seven it is very interesting. A lot of dissonance much like his 2nd Symphony. 

His third symphony is one of my faves. The way he parodies Stravinsky's Firebird motif by treating in a demonic way (based on his Fiery Angel opera) is terrific. The third movement with its maddening portamento down on the violin notes is also very eerie.


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## jlb (Jun 20, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Mon Jun 17 said:


> jlb - told you not EVERYONE wants to be a teaboy at RC!



I think I said no YOUNG composer would turn down a job at RC, and they wouldn't. If they say they would, they are talking out of their arse. The thread that started all this was someone who wasn't even born when HZ started giving a critique of his work. Inappropriate.

JLB


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## dcoscina (Jun 20, 2013)

I would take a job at RC if they allowed me to channel Herrmann, Goldsmith and Prokofiev because those are the composers I love. I cannot ape Williams' style even if I wanted too. Way out of my league.


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## toomanynotes (Jun 20, 2013)

dcoscina @ Thu Jun 20 said:


> I would take a job at RC if they allowed me to channel Herrmann, Goldsmith and Prokofiev because those are the composers I love. I cannot ape Williams' style even if I wanted too. Way out of my league.



Now we're talking business! Join us & together we will crush the rebellion posers. 0oD


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