# Vegetarians / Vegans in the house?



## C M Dess (Mar 6, 2010)

Hi,

I'm thinking about going off meat and dairy. I don't really know where to start. Wondered if any of the vegetarians here have some good recommendations, websites, cookbooks, magazines...I know how to cook, but not much about making complete vegetarian dishes or any of the newer trends and developments in this area.

Need to know about incorporating meat like dishes and making them balanced to fulfill the DRI's / RDA's so I get enough proteins, omega 3, calcium and the others to meet a 2600 calorie diet.

I like all kinds of food from all around the world. I'm hoping there's some encyclopedia reference for healthier style vegie dishes for instance and will be looking into it.

Paul McCartney said he likes a "Vegie Pot Roast"...Anyone know what he was talking about, recipes for this one?

best,
-cd


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## Craig Sharmat (Mar 6, 2010)

Vegetarian Times is a good mag, it basically is a cookbook every month.

their web site has a bunch of recipes.

http://www.vegetariantimes.com/


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## C M Dess (Mar 6, 2010)

That looks perfect. Seems like what I had in mind. I will check it out and also their starter booklet to get and overview of the diet. Thanks Craig.


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## Ed (Mar 6, 2010)

Try this as well, most of them are quite adventurous though 

http://gliving.com/category/greenchefs/rawrecipes/


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## gsilbers (Mar 6, 2010)

vegeterian for 8+years here. 

dont full yourself.. u can be a very unhealthy vegeterian  
example: only eat cheese pizza. 

one thing that help was doing it slowly. dont eat meat but eat chicken for a while. then drop the chix and meat and eat only fish and then drop it. its a big change of your diet so the body will go nuts, well not nuts but youll get tired due to the protein change and deficiency. 
i forgot now but there are animal proteins that are different than the rest and stuff like that, some folks cant handle and such so maybe its something to look at. 


as for replacements. there are a bunch of veggy products in big markets. those veggy patties and fake chix nuggets have a lot of protein as they are made from soy. 

aslo, every restaurant carries at least one veggy dish and from my experience, alsmost all of the times they have been good. 
but if u get invited to outback or something you know youll have fries so eat up somehting before going. 

and be prepared to explain it and be teased a lot.


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## C M Dess (Mar 6, 2010)

Thanks Ed, that stuff does look a bit advanced. But I'll keep in on file. 

GSilbers, will take your advice and not go cold turkey. I plan to make it fairly balanced and use mypyramid as well as the mypyramid menu planner. I'm fortunate to live in an area (san francisco) which has a lot of dinning options for such a diet.

best,
-cd


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## madbulk (Mar 7, 2010)

If I were a San Franciscan thinking about changing my life that way forever, the first thing I would do is subject myself at great cost to the vegetarian tasting menu at French Laundry. (I think I've shoehorned this reference twice on VI in the past month -- bizarre. And telling.)
I'm not looking after your dietary needs obviously. I'm saying anybody who has eaten this meal has changed the way they thought about being a vegetarian forever. It negates the concern, if there ever was one. Would pay dividends for the rest of your life. You'll want to be a better gardiner. Or befriend a farmer. You could be the best vegetarian of all time. And have me to thank!
Or I might be a little sleepy and a little punchy. Or a little hungry.


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## C M Dess (Mar 7, 2010)

Thanks for the tip Brian, sounds good. Will check into it.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 7, 2010)

I personally would go to a good nutritionist before going off both dairy and meat. He or she will be able to give you a real plan based on your personal blood work, not just generic ideas. Obviously you need to make sure you're getting everything you need, and it's possible you'll need supplements.



> the first thing I would do is subject myself at great cost to the vegetarian tasting menu at French Laundry



We went there about 14 years ago, and it's still the most amazing restaurant I've ever been to. I had the vegetarian meal, and it was incredible.

(I do eat chicken and fish - no mammals or ducks, which are honorary mammals because they're cute - but FL had two prix fixe choices: meaty as hell or vegetarian.)


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## sbkp (Mar 10, 2010)

Since you live in San Francisco, go eat at Millennium, then go vegan and never look back 

I've been vegan since late 2001. One of the best decisions of my life (and yes, I lived in San Francisco when I went vegan).

I defy anyone to eat a balanced vegan diet and not get enough protein. Can't be done. People worry about the wrong thing. At 2600 calories per day, your protein requirement is probably about 70g. If you eat legumes and whole grains (never mind eggs), you can't help but get that much.

If you do go vegan, you'll certainly need a B12 supplement, and possibly a DHA supplement. Some people say "B12 comes from meat," but my understanding is that it actually B12 comes from bacteria, which animals ingest, then store the B12. We use http://www.pure-advantage.net/Daily_Nutrients_Vitamin_B12_Spray.asp (http://www.pure-advantage.net/Daily_Nut ... _Spray.asp) . DHA supplements are available that come from sea plants instead of from fish. We use http://www.nutru.com/our_products/omega.htm .

Omega 3: flax seeds and walnuts
Calcium: lots of greens are very high in calcium. There are also"enriched" milks (soy, rice, etc)
Another one people worry about is iron. ("It only comes from meat!") Not so. Legumes, aside from being high in protein, tend to be high in iron, as well.

On the calcium front, one of the benefits of getting off animal foods is that the sulfur contained in animal-based proteins actually leaches calcium out of your body. There's research now suggesting that drinking cow milk actually produces a net calcium _loss_. Got milk indeed. 

We did use a lot of faux meats in the first year. I lost my need for them (and eventually lost most of my taste for them), but they were really helpful. The only one I still like is the original "field roast" from this company ( http://www.fieldroast.com/products.htm ). I haven't tried any of their other products, but if the original one is any indication, I'm sure they're great.

I was vegetarian for about 9 months (except for one piece of chicken at a July 4th picnic) and then went vegan cold tofurky (tofurky is weird stuff, imho).

For cookbooks, my two favorites are http://www.amazon.com/Vegan-World-Fusion-Cuisine-Award-Winning/dp/0975283715 (http://www.amazon.com/Vegan-World-Fusio ... 0975283715) and http://www.amazon.com/Real-Food-Daily-Cookbook-Vegetarian/dp/1580086187/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268212578&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Real-Food-Daily-C ... 578&amp;sr=1-1)

Here's a recipe I love that my wife found on Oprah's site: http://www.oprah.com/food/Moroccan-Spic ... h-Couscous

I think it's even better with quinoa instead of couscous. (And then you get bonus protein if you're still looking for it.)

Here's the pancake recipe we use: http://www.vegfamily.com/vegan-cooking/vegan-pancakes.htm (http://www.vegfamily.com/vegan-cooking/ ... ncakes.htm) . The neighbor kids prefer them to their parents' non-vegan recipes.

Probably my favorite holiday dish is http://www.compassionatecooks.com/r/harvest.htm . The stuffing might be the best stuffing I've ever had. (And Colleen is another friend of ours. Check out her books, videos, and podcast.)

And for pumpkin pie: http://www.happycow.net/recipes.php?id=1

(note: silken tofu is your key to unbelievably good desserts.... non-vegan folks are regularly amazed)

If you need a cake (or maybe pie) from the store, then Black China Bakery is the brand you want. They're from Santa Cruz, but I think are sold at Rainbow Grocery on 13th St. And I know they're in a few restaurants in SF. I miss them... :sniff:

Other SF places worth going: Golden Era, Minako Sushi, Cafe Gratitude (raw food - weird vibe, but we were friends when we lived up there), Ananda Fuara. And for shopping, Rainbow Grocery. If you're visiting LA, then Real Food Daily is excellent!

Other product mentions: As a substitute for butter, Earth Balance. My foodie mother-in-law (who even cooked for Julia Child and her staff on occasion) thinks it's quite good. As a substitute for parmesan cheese on pastas and soups, Parma! ( http://www.eatintheraw.com/ ). We actually make our own version of that because we use so much of it. I don't think Parma! tastes like parmesan cheese (from what I can remember), but man it's really good.

Also, check out this event in the fall: http://www.sfvs.org/wvd/ . Lots of great food there.

I'm always curious to ask what people's motivations are when they're considering something like this. PM me if you want to hear mine. I don't want to proselytize unless asked


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 10, 2010)

All great information - I mean that! - but I still say it's a good idea to see a good nutritionist before you make a major change like that. Not everyone has the same requirements, and the key to what SvK says is *balanced* - a balanced vegan diet.

By the way I too eat walnuts (actually mixed nuts) and ground flax seed. That's unrelated to meat eating but related to nutrition.

And more on my favorite subject (myself): my motivation for being half vegetarian is simply that I'm squeamish and don't like the idea of eating mammals. Actually I don't like the idea of eating chicken and fish either, in fact I stay away from fish like orange roughy that are 100 years old when they're caught, but that's the compromise I make.


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## sbkp (Mar 10, 2010)

Since my login (sbkp) has been collapsed with Steven's (SvK), I can only hope my engineering chops can eventually be as good as his!

I certainly don't disagree about seeing a nutritionist. I would only say that if you want to find a way to be a healthy vegan or vegetarian, then find a nutritionist who is vegan or vegetarian, as well. My experience with health professionals of all types is that they tend to recommend others do what they do, whether consciously or subconsciously. So an omnivorous nutritionist is more likely (again, in my experience) to recommend an omnivorous diet.

Also, no health professional is perfect. No study is perfect. If a perfectly designed study finds that 98% of people do better on a certain diet, any one person in particular might not do better. So see what works better for you. Get all the information you want (from books, nutritionists, anonymous people on music forums), but then you still need to try it to see if it works.


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## C M Dess (Mar 10, 2010)

Thanks Stefan for all that info and the sites. Look forward to checking out the grocer and the field roast products, looks like a great find.  It's good to know of all those vege friendly restaurants as I make my travels into this realm.

I do have a lot of information on Nutrition, a friend who works for Pearson education gets all the books for free, so I've been making some requests over the years and studying up. But it's also good to know first hand accounts and experiences from those on such a diet—as you describe—and the kinds of supplements found to be most effective for the diet. I will be getting some recent blood tests back Thursday and see what the doctor has to say based on any indicators for starters.

Appreciate your taking the time to share all that. o-[][]-o 

best,
-cd


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 10, 2010)

While a good nutritionist can deal with vegan diets as well, I agree with that in principle too, Stefan.

The main thing is that he or she be good!


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## sbkp (Mar 10, 2010)

Hey, cd. No problem! I enjoy this topic, and I find it pretty fascinating sometimes.

As it so happens, my wife has been taking a series of classes in plant-based nutrition via Cornell's online division. I overheard a little bit of the lecture by T Colin Campbell ( http://www.tcolincampbell.org/ ) this evening talking about supplementation. 

He claimed the evidence that DHA supplementation is necessary for vegans is pretty thin and based on a pretty questionable study. We started taking it based on a lecture we attended by Michael Greger ( http://www.drgreger.org/ ). We were speaking with him afterward and he acknowledged that the evidence he'd read wasn't conclusive but that there seemed to be a need for vegans to supplement DHA.

In the lecture from tonight, Campbell also mentioned a study of Yale athletes that showed that _decreasing_ protein intake from (I think) over 100 grams per day to about 65 grams per day _increased_ their performance. I just went looking for more information about that, but couldn't find it. But I did find this link:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1763249

The abstract says that "a diet containing 12 to 15% of its energy from protein should be adequate for both types [endurance and strength] of athletes." So at the 2600 calories a day you mentioned, assuming you're athletic, that would be 312 to 390 calories per day from protein, which is 78 to 97g per day.


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## JT3_Jon (Mar 10, 2010)

GREAT THREAD!!

I too went Vegetarian cold turkey once I read "diet for a new america." After learning where my food came from and what is done to the "product," that was it. 

I dont really have much to add to what has already been said, but I will share my first and favorite cookbook: The Complete Vegan Cookbook. I have yet to find a meal from this book that wasn't amazing! http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Vegan-Cookbook-Tantalizing-Experienced/dp/0761529519/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268284324&sr=8-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Vegan-Co ... 324&amp;sr=8-1)

I'll for sure be checking out what others have recommended as well. 

Speaking of vegetarian athletes, I forget what year it was, but one of the "strongest men in the world" winners was vegetarian, and there are many athletes from all sorts, even bodybuilders, who are vegetarian. Meat does not equal meat head.


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## mf (Mar 11, 2010)

A wise man once told me that what you eat is what you is. He also said that the best food for you is the food you can afford.


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## Ed (Mar 11, 2010)

Good video series here:

http://tinyurl.com/drgreger 

I'd also check out his "Latest in Clinical Nutrition" series. That above playlist contains some from 2007, which is good but theres alsoa 2009 version available that I havent got around to watching yet. Makes me want to change my diet after listening to them


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## sbkp (Mar 11, 2010)

JT3_Jon @ Wed Mar 10 said:


> I too went Vegetarian cold turkey once I read "diet for a new america." After learning where my food came from and what is done to the "product," that was it.



For me it was his next book, _Food Revolution_ that did it. I actually was vegan by about page 100 or so...


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## Chrislight (Mar 11, 2010)

gsilbers @ Sat Mar 06 said:


> vegeterian for 8+years here.
> 
> dont full yourself.. u can be a very unhealthy vegeterian
> example: only eat cheese pizza.
> ...



Exactly how I became a vegetarian (although now I eat fish occasionally). In 1994 I went off red meat, refined sugar and caffeine. A year or so later, I stopped eating poultry and then finally a little later I went off fish and was a total vegetarian for several years. Eventually, I felt the need to add a little fish occasionally into my diet. It's important to listen to your body (yeah, you can do that!) and what it needs, rather than trying to stick to a strict regiment based on what you think might work.

Good news is though, it's a great time to be a vegetarian! Lots of improvement in prepared foods that you can buy at a health food market - and even in a lot of the regular supermarkets now.

Good luck!


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## sbkp (Mar 21, 2010)

Except for the calcium-leaching proteins and cholesterol-boosting fats, antibiotics, hormones, and concentrated environmental pollutants, I'd almost agree with you...


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## C M Dess (Mar 21, 2010)

Choco I saw that same video and it seemed really good. Guy seemed like he may have had a few too many red bulls before the lecture though. :mrgreen: I too have cut back on my sugar...it's all part of the overall health tune-up from reading the Pearson nutrition books and trying to achieve more wellness. I use this tool to gauge nutritional content at times, what's cool is that it also tells you how many servings from the various groups your food comprises:
http://www.myfoodapedia.gov/

The fat/cholesterol factor is not the primary reason I'm off meat (been off since my initial post pretty much  ). Everything just seemed to make sense all at once and the food technology and information seems to be there and more tested as well. I'm a huge eggplant fan so it makes for a good substitute also, taste-wise. I have been keeping an ear on what the body is saying since the switch as Chrislight points out. I'm still drinking milk occasionally, mainly to play it safe for a while, but more so rice and soy milk now.

Thanks for the additional insights all.


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## sbkp (Mar 22, 2010)

You might want to try almond milk, too. It doesn't work in coffee, though. If you like chocolate milk, on the other hand, the chocolate "Almond Breeze" brand drink is really good (imho). And that _does_ work in coffee if you're into the mocha thing.

Some people really like hemp milk. It wasn't to my taste, but it worked incredibly well in the pancake recipe I listed in a previous post. Oat milk is another option, too.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 22, 2010)

I'll go along with the antibiotics, hormones, and environmental pollutants, but not the other part. Too much meat isn't good, but calcium-leaching proteins and cholesterol-boosting fats aren't a problem if you eat it in moderation.

However, as I said, I don't eat mammals or ducks, and I don't even eat all fish. And I don't eat the skin when I eat chicken, because that's where most of the fat is.


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## sbkp (Mar 22, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Mar 22 said:


> I'll go along with the antibiotics, hormones, and environmental pollutants, but not the other part. Too much meat isn't good, but calcium-leaching proteins and cholesterol-boosting fats aren't a problem if you eat it in moderation.



Quite possible. And as a matter of choice, I have room for both of us. o-[][]-o 



> However, as I said, I don't eat mammals or ducks, and I don't even eat all fish. And I don't eat the skin when I eat chicken, because that's where most of the fat is.



And possibly most of the pollutants, too. Lots of those sorts of things collect in fat cells, or so I've heard. Oh, and of course there's my favorite of all pollutants in food: mercury in fish. Yum!!!!

(o)


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## C M Dess (Mar 22, 2010)

Almond milk sounds good too, will give it a shot, it's known to be one of the healthiest nuts from what I remember. I like the other "milks" too, no real taste issue in that area. In fact, I generally never drink regular milk plain in the first place, only in coffee.

I know that caffeine is proven to be associated with calcium loss, so I'll probably make the switch to decaf at some point soon. Trying not to send my system into shock all at once however.


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## Ed (Mar 22, 2010)

Green tea!!


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## Ed (Mar 22, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Mar 22 said:


> And I don't eat the skin when I eat chicken, because that's where most of the fat is.



And where much of the fecal matter is apparently.


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## sbkp (Mar 22, 2010)

Ed @ Mon Mar 22 said:


> Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Mar 22 said:
> 
> 
> > And I don't eat the skin when I eat chicken, because that's where most of the fat is.
> ...



I'm not so sure that's true. From what I've heard, they soak the processed chickens in water (including fecal matter) to make the meat "plump up" so they weigh more and can sell them for more. "Now 10% more fecal matter... FREE!"


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## Ed (Mar 22, 2010)

sbkp @ Mon Mar 22 said:


> I'm not so sure that's true. From what I've heard, they soak the processed chickens in water (including fecal matter) to make the meat "plump up" so they weigh more and can sell them for more. "Now 10% more fecal matter... FREE!"



You can find the studies in that video series I posted earlier, but as theres so many parts to it I can't remember which it is!

Anyway as you mentioned the artificial plumping up, he also talks about why chicken you buy in stores is so full of salt. Its because they inject the chicken with salt water to make it weigh more, but they get away with saying its not an artificial substance - just water and salt! Incidentally I was reading on some packet of bacon yesterday it said water and salt in the ingredients. Clearly its not just chicken they do it to! :D


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Mar 22, 2010)

How do Vegans get B12?


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## sbkp (Mar 22, 2010)

Ed @ Mon Mar 22 said:


> sbkp @ Mon Mar 22 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not so sure that's true. From what I've heard, they soak the processed chickens in water (including fecal matter) to make the meat "plump up" so they weigh more and can sell them for more. "Now 10% more fecal matter... FREE!"
> ...



I had this funny experience once at the supermarket. I was walking past a cooler near the meat section and I saw packages of chicken with a big "100% antibiotic free" thing on the label. "Cool," I thought, "this mainstream meat company is doing something right."

Then I got closer and noticed an asterisk after the statement. "Oh," I thought, "this oughta be good."

So on the back of the package, the footnote read:

* Federal law prohibits the use of antibiotics in chicken

So in other words, they were touting the fact that they weren't breaking the law. Nice!


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## sbkp (Mar 22, 2010)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Mon Mar 22 said:


> How do Vegans get B12?



Supplements. It's in "enriched" soy milk, for example. I also have a spray (I think I posted a link earlier) that I use.

The thing about B12 is it comes from bacteria. The reason it's in meat is because they get a lot of that bacteria in their food. Humans (now) wash their food so much, that the bacteria and vitamin are removed from it.

So you could also get B12 by not washing your fruit and vegetables. I'm not so keen on that


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## Ed (Mar 24, 2010)

From Michael Greger:

Dr. Gregers Recommendations
for Optimum Vegetarian Nutrition
*Vitamin B12* One 2000 mcg (or μg) tablet (ideally chewed or dissolved under your tongue) once a week; or
at least 10-100 mcg once a day; or servings of B12-fortified foods (containing at least 25% Daily Value on
the label) at least twice a day.
Essential Fatty Acids Two tablespoons of ground flax seeds every day or two teaspoons daily of flax seed
oil, in addition to avoiding omega 6-rich oils (corn, safflower, sunflower, cottonseed), saturated fats, and
trans fats. Diabetics and pregnant or breast-feeding women should take 300 mg of DHA every day.
Vitamin D North of Los Angeles or Atlanta, non-elderly white non-sunscreen-using adults who spend time
in the sun can get away with ensuring daily dietary Vitamin D just during the winter. Everyone else living at
such latitudes should include daily Vitamin D sources in their diet year-round. Sources include Vitamin Dfortified
foods, Vitamin D supplements, or eating about a dozen dried shitake mushrooms or a dozen fresh
Chanterelle mushrooms every day.
Calcium 1000 mg a day for ages 19-54 via cups of low-oxalate greens, fortified foods, and/or supplements.
Iodine If you dont drink milk or eat seaweed or use iodized salt, you may need to supplement your diet.
Iron Menstruating women should increase their intake by combining iron-rich and Vitamin C-rich foods at
meals and should get checked for iron-deficiency anemia every few years. Men should be checked for hemochromatosis
before increasing iron intake.
Selenium Northern European vegetarians may need to use supplements or eat about 20 Brazil nuts per
month.
· Eat dark leafy greens, beans, nuts, fresh fruit, and whole grains every day.
· Eat as many vegetables as you can.
· Drink at least five glasses of water a day.
Articles
Michael Klaper on minerals: http://www.vsh.org/newsletter-2001-09.pdf
Ginny Messina on calcium: http://vegRD.vegan.com/pages/article.php?id=462
Stephen Walsh on iodine: http://www.vegansociety.com/html/info/info56.htm
Ten most common myths about vegetarian diets: http://www.llu.edu/llu/vegetarian/myths.htm
Books
Becoming Vegan by Brenda Davis and Vesanto Melina
Newsletter
Vegetarian Nutrition and Health Letter from Loma Linda University, 1(888)558-8703.
Websites
http://vegRD.vegan.com
http://www.veganoutreach.org/health/
http://www.vegansociety.com/html/info/infohome.html
Michael Greger, MD • www.veganMD.org • [email protected]"


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## snowleopard (Mar 26, 2010)

I've been a vegetarian for about 20 years. Not 100% pure though - when I travel overseas I eat what I'm served, avoiding meat when possible. I made the choice for health reasons and it took several months. First cutting out red meat and pork, then poultry, and eventually fish. For me, it was one of the most significant decisions of my life. I could feel it in my core, and I mean physically, not spiritually. 

Cutting out processed sugar and packaged or refined foods is something that helps a lot as well, though I haven't completely cut them out. 

Take your time, go easy on yourself. Don't beat yourself up if you fall off the wagon so to speak.


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