# Message to members of Vi-Control



## Cinesamples (Dec 5, 2012)

I thought a video would be a better method to communicate some thoughts. Please watch.


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## danielcartisano (Dec 5, 2012)

Very well said Mike.

I guess sometimes we need to be reminded of the people behind these libraries and what great service they provide for all us composers.

Good luck with CinePerc sales and I'm looking forward to the CineBrass Core update.

Cheers,
D.


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## ryanstrong (Dec 5, 2012)

Nothing but love for CineSamples, top notch products, customer service etc. But I know you didn't start this thread fishing for compliments but more over, and I agree, that the vibe has been pretty off lately. There indeed has been some toxic conversations and things said even with intensions to be constructive but none the less toxic and counter-productive.

There is power in your words that you say and write here and I for one join with Mike and CineSamples to say - let's all truly think about what we say, because it can greatly affected people in a negative or positive way.

This is a public forum and I believe in the freedom of speech and if anyone wants to have a discussion based off criticism of somebody's hard work of a product just sit and truly reflect and go back over your message, your words before you hit the submit button.

Love this forum and love the people on here!


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## José Herring (Dec 5, 2012)

Heard and understood. Certainly clears up a lot of misconceptions I had about Cinesamples.


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## LeighJC (Dec 5, 2012)

Dear Mike P, Mike B and all the cine samples team,

I am deeply saddened to see a Video like this, really upsetting to see!! 

On behalf of the rest of VI were sorry, I've nervier posted anything at negative to you guys (except desperately waiting to click add to cart, and wondering when the new goodies are going online), but as a community we should all be sorry it's come to this!!! And I think we all no where and which post have started it. 

We know it take hours months etc to make these libraries god only knows the cost, and I for one really really appreciate everything that goes into it and all the effort and sleepless nights, please don't get put off or think we think your not making an effort because we all do, I've followed you'd guys from the beginning!! 

I know what I want to say but don't have the words for it, everything you do is of the highest standards!!! Just look at what you have achieved I'm even proud when people come into my studio and I show them your stuff and they can't believe it's all sampled!! 

Don't let the few spoil the many, you have so many dedicated customers, but it is sad how you feel and I can fully understand why as well, I come to read comments about people's thought maybe get a few tips we can even chat with you direct on this forum but lately all I read is someone say how bad something is BUT it is usually started by 1 person not everyone a lot of us will defended you to the death, as I would many other of my go to developers Spitfire and 8dio have all had this negativity as well, I'm just rambling!!!! 

On behalf of EVERYONE were sorry, so so sorry we LOVE YOU 

I haven't bought cineperc yet :shock: but I'm going to go and buy it right now just to show you how much I care about what you have and hopefully will continue to do for us 

Sorry again sorry for typos 

CINESAMPLES RULE _-) 

Leigh :D


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## Alex Cuervo (Dec 5, 2012)

Classy.


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## Blackster (Dec 5, 2012)

LeighJC @ Thu Dec 06 said:


> Dear Mike P, Mike B and all the cine samples team,
> 
> I am deeply saddened to see a Video like this, really upsetting to see!!
> 
> ...



I'm not sure that this is the answer Mike has expected ... 

However, it is sad to see a video like this one. I can understand what Mike is saying. Sometimes it is not easy to marry your passion/joy/fun (you name it) with a solid business. Although CineSamples is quite established in the industry Mike has been trying all the time to keep everything very informal, which is not easy at all and I really appreciate it! 

I'm sure, every developer feels like he is giving something very special to the community with every single release because he has put so many hours of work, money and effort into this. And you know what, that is absolutely true! 

It is just sad to see (mostly) bad reactions after bringing a big project to the end.


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 6, 2012)

LeighJC @ Thu Dec 06 said:


> Don't let the few spoil the many



That's it right there - it's easily said but perhaps harder to appreciate. It only takes a handful of people - sometimes just one - to completely derail a thread and poison an atmosphere.

Before you posted that video, I'd already publicly said I felt awful about the direction the CinePerc thread took. It did seem spectacularly graceless, rude and - I'll call a spade a spade here - I think the mods really have some thinking to do because they were part of that problem, at least how I perceive it. We're all human - devs, mods and punters - and a little more thought and care would go a hell of a long way.

I hope this doesn't get the backlash I'm half expecting, a cry that freedom of speech is being suppressed. That's not the point. As came up recently, the CS guys are cool with constructive criticism and speaking our minds - but the constructive part is the critical bit. The CinePerc thread went waaay over the line, with absurd hyperbole that ultimately ended up in an audio posted that was plain defamatory it so misrepresented the library.

Now, that's not the first time this has happened. A year or two ago I remember a thread where someone (can't remember who) posted a thread about how terrible the legato was in Hollywood Brass, comparing to CineBrass. I don't have HB, but the examples posted sounded UNBELIEVABLY bad, and I couldn't believe that was the case given what I'd already heard and the calibre of the folks behind it. After 2 or 3 pages of back and forth, the OP fessed up - he'd not been loading the true legato patches, and apologised red-faced.

That part is the difference between than and now, imo. Most of us screw up, make mistakes, get over-excited with hyperbole one way or the other. But then if we do, we need to fess up and apologise where necessary.

Mikes, I echo what everyone else here has said (and I've also already PM'd). Together with barely a handful of other developers, CineSamples is right at the top of the tree in every regard. Your products are second to none, the sound and programming revolutionary, your ethics are far more than admirable and you're always pushing this industry forward in a constructive direction. I hope VI Control doesn't implode under the weight of a small number of disruptive members, and can carry on this great relationship with you guys.


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## midi_controller (Dec 6, 2012)

I've lurked around these parts for a very long time and with all due respect, I've got to disagree. There have ALWAYS been those that are insanely picky about everything and have always been extremely vocal about any perceived shortcomings they think are there. There have always been those members that are generally mean spirited. And worst of all, there have always been the fan-boys who hate EVERYTHING except for whatever developer they currently use, and they love to shit all over any other developer any chance they get, because it's just "not as good".

Actually, now that I think about it, that is pretty much all of the internet.

But those people are not worth your time. Even though I don't own any of your sample libraries (yet!), I know that you make quality stuff and are committed to improving them. You don't need to "put out fires" because by responding, you only feed the flames. Just ignore people like that. If someone really wants to be helpful about specific little things, they will e-mail or PM you.

Relax, you have nothing to worry about. You make damn fine products that can speak for themselves, and you know it. Take the constructive criticism and forget the rest.


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## Blackster (Dec 6, 2012)

midi_controller @ Thu Dec 06 said:


> But those people are not worth your time. Even though I don't own any of your sample libraries (yet!), I know that you make quality stuff and are committed to improving them. You don't need to "put out fires" because by responding, you only feed the flames. Just ignore people like that. If someone really wants to be helpful about specific little things, they will e-mail or PM you.
> 
> Relax, you have nothing to worry about. You make damn fine products that can speak for themselves, and you know it. Take the constructive criticism and forget the rest.



Actually, I think you are mixing up different things here. Regarding to CS products and their quality to it - you are absolutely right!

But what about the reputation? Some guys won't even consider to take a listen to demo tracks when there's too much bad talk about quality. So, I think this could really end with a damage for the company .... 

And by the way, who has become successful just by relaxing and don't worrying about anything !? .... :wink:


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## passenger57 (Dec 6, 2012)

Thanks for the video Mike, it's great to see you speak in person. I've purchased almost all your products over the years (am saving for cineperc) and I use and enjoy them almost everyday. Your efforts are greatly appreciated by the film music community and we hope your company lives long and prospers for many years to come!


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## Resoded (Dec 6, 2012)

I agree that it would be nice if this forum could just dial down the tone a bit at times.


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## dannthr (Dec 6, 2012)

Mike,

I want to apologize for my share in adding to the negativity in both this forum and the in the reception of your product releases. I don't know about my fellow forumites, but I've felt a shift in the way I engage the VI-Control Community.

I don't know if we were ever an especially kind or generous community, I imagine part of what you're feeling, to be fair, has to do with the fact that CineSamples, at least around these parts, is viewed with the same celebrity and same critical eye that we've applied to EW, VSL, NI, and other top grossing library developers. To your credit, this speaks volumes to the quality product you release.

As a CineSamples Customer: Maybe this is stupid, but when you guys deleted your forum, especially after a couple of my bug complaints went unanswered, I felt like you guys had told us that you weren't interested in engaging in this sort of discussion. I don't think I ever sent you guys a support ticket describing bugs from your library after that point--I think the only support tickets I sent were related to download bugs. I felt like you either wanted to move that discussion here or not have it at all.

I remember complaining to John Rodd about your CineWinds library, and he was like, why don't you tell them, they're nice guys. Smart guy, that John Rodd.

I just didn't feel like that's what you guys cared about. And I let those feelings sit with me, regretting the purchase, until the discusison about the library came up here, on VI-Control.

I try to be fair, I try to be complete when I express my feelings or assess a library, but sometimes I forget as frustrations in my own life or career leak into my expression here.

Anyway, I don't want to run on, as I tend to say just a bit too much for my own good, but I just want to say I'm sorry.


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## Ganvai (Dec 6, 2012)

So, this was totally the wrong place for my former text.

Just let me say here, that I totally can understand what Mike sayd.

Also i fear this is totally normal. When you start up, you have alot of support, but the bigger you grow, the more critics you get. It doesn't matter if your products have become much better, some people don't like it and when they communicate this they just see the products and not the people standing behind them. 

Also it is a problem of the communication within a forum. Sometimes it lacks a little bit of respect. that's not a problem of this forum, it is a problem of the whole internet. 

Regarding to this point, the idea with the video was very good.

Kind regards,
Jan


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## midi_controller (Dec 6, 2012)

Blackster @ Thu Dec 06 said:


> Actually, I think you are mixing up different things here. Regarding to CS products and their quality to it - you are absolutely right!
> 
> But what about the reputation? Some guys won't even consider to take a listen to demo tracks when there's too much bad talk about quality. So, I think this could really end with a damage for the company ....
> 
> And by the way, who has become successful just by relaxing and don't worrying about anything !? .... :wink:



That is my point, CineSamples reputation isn't at stake here and never was. From my quick browsing of it, most of the posts were very positive in the CinePerc thread, until that one post. It was just given much more attention than it should have been. I don't think that would have had a very big impact on sales, especially considering almost no one else could replicate it.

Stressing yourself out over everything everyone says will only lead to an early grave, and I don't think anyone wants that. :D 

A quick plea to the CS team: Please, please, don't mess with your free patch. It's already been verified that there isn't anything wrong and you would be setting a bad precedent if you went through so much trouble just because one person had a problem. We all appreciate that you are willing to go the extra mile, but please don't waste any more time on this.


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## Graham Keitch (Dec 6, 2012)

My first choice for woods? CineWinds

My first choice for brass? CineBrass Core and Pro

And if it wasn't for the massive download size which will kill my broadband connection at the moment, I would almost certainly be adding Perc to that too!

That's way over half the orchestra, especially if we add in a load of misc stuff like Voxos, CineBells, CineToms, CineCrash etc! So I guess that makes CineSamples my most treasured overall orchestral sample developer. 

Now, my favourite string library isn't from CineSamples - but we're hoping you chaps are working on that. So, back to work!

Best wishes - and keep up the good work!

Graham

BTW, I also got a free triangle from CineSamples and despite owning several other expensive perc libraries, I nearly always end up using yours.


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## Waywyn (Dec 6, 2012)

Thanks for the video, Mike! Well put!


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## TheUnfinished (Dec 6, 2012)

Regardless of any offence cause to Cinesamples, there does seem to have been a growing trend towards vitriol when any kind of argument has come up on VI Control over the last few months.

It may not always be intended, but the reliance on hyperbole and inflammatory language when trying to put across a case is rather desperate and usually only serves to undermine the argument - though, as I think what concerns the Mikes at Cinesamples the most, is that sometimes that damage has already been done if people aren't paying attention.

It wouldn't hurt for people to speak on forums as they would speak to someone's face. It won't kill ya.


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## FriFlo (Dec 6, 2012)

I must say, I cannot agree with VI-Control being a place of rudeness or overly-negative emotions towards the developers. As Mike said himself: It is mainly this place that started their careers as devs and still sells a great deal of their libraries. In fact, the whole business has been changed, as resellers (like best service) are more and more cut out of the business. Hence, we get more affordable libraries.
From time to time someone complains about a library or a feature he might be missing. In some cases this person might be rude, but in the majority of cases I have rather seen a rude response to that complain by a dev or a forum member that led to an escalation. I think everybody has to except that some people will always start a war out of nothing.
In this case, if CS would have just left out the trolling comment, there would not have been such an emotional debate at all. Everything else they did (e.g. the video investigating what the users problem might be) was really classy and the way to do it (deescalation). 
Why do people post their complaints here instead of sending a ticket? Well, it is rather obvious: they are certain to get more attention, as a thread on VI-Control is less likely to be ignored. 
Lastly, this forum is full of praise for many libraries and developers. For some more, for some less ... if you don't see that, I think this is also very much a one-sided view point. You will never get ONLY positive remarks here. That is only possible on the soundsonline/EW forum, and I think everybody knows why ... 
Just handle negative posts the way you (almost) did here and everything will be good!


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## amorphosynthesis (Dec 6, 2012)

Despite the fact that I am a relatively new member here,I can honestly say that sometimes I am drown back from purchasing some of the staff that are discussed in vi-control.And that is mainly because of negative feedback coming from members of vi-control.My main example about this is the magnificent cinewinds core library,which I finally did purchase and I am thrilled about.O.K the library may not match with everyone's expectations,but it is damn good.It may have its glitches but...come on guys,the winds are naked...and as far as I am concerned...turn the modwheel and they'll sing directly to my heart.

Mike(sorry that I am addressing to you as if as I know you) but mind this please;
The debate about a product is controversial and long when a product meets some standards...if it sucks completely believe me..there's no debate at all.I bought cinewinds because they were cheap(for what they have to offer they are way too cheap) and the result is enormously good-and the naked videos from the product really showed me what to expect.I am a medical doctor here in Greece,working on a large hospital,and my monthly payment is lower than 1000 euros-and I've learned this;negative feedback and criticism is most of what you get when you try to create something better.but you have to try and try...keep up the good work!!!!


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## Waywyn (Dec 6, 2012)

FriFlo @ Thu Dec 06 said:


> I must say, I cannot agree with VI-Control being a place of rudeness or overly-negative emotions towards the developers. As Mike said himself: It is mainly this place that started their careers as devs and still sells a great deal of their libraries. In fact, the whole business has been changed, as resellers (like best service) are more and more cut out of the business. Hence, we get more affordable libraries.
> From time to time someone complains about a library or a feature he might be missing. In some cases this person might be rude, but in the majority of cases I have rather seen a rude response to that complain by a dev or a forum member that led to an escalation. I think everybody has to except that some people will always start a war out of nothing.
> In this case, if CS would have just left out the trolling comment, there would not have been such an emotional debate at all. Everything else they did (e.g. the video investigating what the users problem might be) was really classy and the way to do it (deescalation).
> Why do people post their complaints here instead of sending a ticket? Well, it is rather obvious: they are certain to get more attention, as a thread on VI-Control is less likely to be ignored.
> ...



I sort of agree with you, but I think the main concern is, as also Matt mentioned, that people on the internet generally have less respect or less manner when it comes to criticism than if they would talk face to face with each other.
Even though this happens everywhere throughout the web, I think WE as a community can be different.
So it is not about to post and talk about negative stuff, but about HOW one does it.

Another point is also about how a thread is being opened: I've seen all kinds of stuff from "lib/vsti/plugin x SUCKS!!!" to simply prejudge a lib with a provoking title. It is almost as the intention wasn't to talk about a lib but to simply get a chance to raise the red flag towards the bulls.

... and also I realized the same over time not just with libraries but also towards music styles. As if one specific style of music would be the crown of creation and everything else is "ok" to low as "unworthy" ...

This should change!!


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## Ciaran Birch (Dec 6, 2012)

Here here Mike. Very nice touch with the video! One of the best things about CineSamples is how you all open yourselves up to the public. Between the youtube channels, twitter, etc., you guys do a great job keeping the public up to date with the goings on. Keep up the great work!


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## FriFlo (Dec 6, 2012)

> I sort of agree with you, but I think the main concern is, as also Matt mentioned, that people on the internet generally have less respect or less manner when it comes to criticism than if they would talk face to face with each other.
> Even though this happens everywhere throughout the web, I think WE as a community can be different.
> So it is not about to post and talk about negative stuff, but about HOW one does it.


Completely agree with you on that. But that is necessary for both sides. I have seen (and sometimes experienced) at least as many rude responses by developers as I have seen poor choice of words by users.


> Another point is also about how a thread is being opened: I've seen all kinds of stuff from "lib/vsti/plugin x SUCKS!!!" to simply prejudge a lib with a provoking title. It is almost as the intention wasn't to talk about a lib but to simply get a chance to raise the red flag towards the bulls.


Is it just me? Most complaints I read do not have a red flag title like that. But if they do, I agree: a modest way of saying things is always the best way.


> ... and also I realized the same over time not just with libraries but also towards music styles. As if one specific style of music would be the crown of creation and everything else is "ok" to low as "unworthy" ...


Yeah, I really hate people thinking of themselves as some kind of style guru. This kind of pride is mostly due to the lack of real skills. Hey! Everybody needs to be proud of something!  
I think we will never see all people behave the same way on the internet as in real live. This is just the way human work: if nobody could punch you in the face, you get bolder ... I hate that, too. Just don't think it will ever be all good. i am rather afraid that - with more and more communication over the net - people will sstart to behave in real live as on the internet ... (o)


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## Lex (Dec 6, 2012)

I for one don't agree that this should change Alex. If I expect to have the freedom here to share my opinions uncensored, then so should every other member, including those with who's opinions and rhetoric I strongly disagree with. 

As for the main topic, I don't think the VI "took a turn" anywhere. This place was more or less started by the people who left NS because they were banned over there for directly and openly stating their opinions about sample library products. Let's be honest, in the time when Cinesamples was starting up and getting the support Mike is talking about, some other already established developer was dealing with unwanted questions and negative feedback. 

Now, to be honest I first saw Mike's video, then had to go and read the thread in question to see whats up (mostly cause I stay away from "first impression" threads, I have my own ears and the demos are up), and I really didn't see any bashing of Cinesamples. Couple of people had problems with noise reduction, so what?....why avoid it and discuss it for 3 pages, calling people trolls before saying "yes you are right we did use noise reduction on far samples". By avoiding the direct question and delaying the obvious answer Cinesamples made it sound like they did something bad and Freesamples found it. It's ridiculous, if you used NR u used NR, as if you have to justify choices you made while working hard on delivering these products.

Not everyone here knows what they are talking about, but considering this is an uncensored well moderated forum, everyone has the equal right to pretend they do. If they go out of line, mods are always there and are doing a terrific job.

alex
LOVES CINEBRASS CORE


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## Resoded (Dec 6, 2012)

Concerning people saying harsh things just because they get away with it. Even though I think that is true, I'd like to add that written language for some reason often comes across as cold and determined, maybe even patronizing. Saying the same things face to face isn't perceived as harsh. Almost like things in print are thought of as absolute truths, while things said are viewed as opinions. The lack of face expressions and tone of voice really screws up communication imho.


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## jamwerks (Dec 6, 2012)

Class act ! o-[][]-o 

btw, CinePerc Pro bundle is on my shopping list !


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## Lex (Dec 6, 2012)

Resoded @ Thu Dec 06 said:


> Concerning people saying harsh things just because they get away with it. Even though I think that is true, I'd like to add that written language for some reason often comes across as cold and determined, maybe even patronizing. Saying the same things face to face isn't perceived as harsh. Almost like things in print are thought of as absolute truths, while things said are viewed as opinions. The lack of face expressions and tone of voice really screws up communication imho.




So true, and an important point.

alex


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## Simon Ravn (Dec 6, 2012)

Wow.... I sure didn't see this coming. I think you are taking these FEW criticisms too personally, really. I can understand how you can be hurt by the latest coments about CinePerc from one person - but please note that everybody else are praising your library (including me)!

A couple of days ago, another member wrote me in private, asking what strings library to get to add to his collection. You know what I told him? I said that if he could he should wait for you guys coming out with a strings library, since I think that will be the best sounding and best working string library commercially available when/if it happens. I actually thought you WERE already working on a strings library, and I really hope that these few negative comments won't stop you from doing a strings library. I have no inside information saying you ARE doing a strings library, but it would make perfect sense if you did that (possibly section by section like 8dio) after having done winds, brass and percussion.

Anyway... I think what you are doing is so well done that I couldn't recommend any of the competitors' products based on my own experience - so all I could do is tell him to wait for your library! 8) 

I don't have much else to say here. Of course you will get both negative and positive feedback on your products. I just hope the business makes sense and the positive comments are enough to make you continue doing these great samples libraries!


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## Mike Marino (Dec 6, 2012)

Thanks for the video, Mike; very well put.



> Wow.... I sure didn't see this coming. I think you are taking these FEW criticisms too personally, really.



I don't think they're taking it too personally. This has happened time and again, not long ago with NI, 8dio before that, pretty consistently with EW.....

I think, however, that the underlying message is that the developers DO want negative feedback; how else can they improve their products, right? I think the manner and/or tone/sharpness of this feedback does more harm than good. That is the message I received from Mike's video.

- Mike


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## dinerdog (Dec 6, 2012)

Totally agree. Not sure why some people feel 'compelled' to let their opinions fly, especially when it's negative stuff. It's part of our internet culture that makes a sort of detached communication easy, but it just makes me cringe to see it. Fair and balanced is one thing (still a skill in short supply), but if you don't have anything nice to say, PM someone instead. The developers here are not twisting your arm to buy these amazing, personal libraries.


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## Simon Ravn (Dec 6, 2012)

Mike Marino @ Thu Dec 06 said:


> Thanks for the video, Mike; very well put.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There's a big difference between e.g. EW and Cinesamples. EW (and to some extent 8dio) deserve all the negative comments they get. So many people are fed up with PLAY and EW products. This is not the case with Cinesamples since they release far more mature products and on a much better platform (Kontakt). So for me there is no comparison between EW and CS. CS have a far better reputation and rightly so.


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## jamwerks (Dec 6, 2012)

Simon Ravn @ Thu Dec 06 said:


> Wow.... I sure didn't see this coming. I think you are taking these FEW criticisms too personally, really. I can understand how you can be hurt by the latest coments about CinePerc from one person



Must be because one criticism can potentially do lots of unwarranted economic damage.


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 6, 2012)

Lex @ Thu Dec 06 said:


> Now, to be honest I first saw Mike's video, then had to go and read the thread in question to see whats up (mostly cause I stay away from "first impression" threads, I have my own ears and the demos are up), and I really didn't see any bashing of Cinesamples. Couple of people had problems with noise reduction, so what?....why avoid it and discuss it for 3 pages, calling people trolls before saying "yes you are right we did use noise reduction on far samples". By avoiding the direct question and delaying the obvious answer Cinesamples made it sound like they did something bad and Freesamples found it. It's ridiculous, if you used NR u used NR, as if you have to justify choices you made while working hard on delivering these products.



IMO that's a huge misreading of that thread, but I guess we should leave the specifics in the other place. In a sentence though - rudeness saddens me, but misrepresenting a library which would lead others to have a false impression is far more serious, and does have obvious direct commercial implications.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 6, 2012)

Mike is 100% right except for one thing: it has been going this way for along time. It has just gotten worse for CS these days because familiarity breeds contempt.

My sense is that nowadays people buy a library and right away look for what it DOESN"T do well or do as described, rather than looking or what it does well.

Anyway, I work part time for CS's direct competitor with certain products but I totally support Mike in what he said here.


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## sin(x) (Dec 6, 2012)

FriFlo @ 2012-12-06 said:


> I have seen (and sometimes experienced) at least as many rude responses by developers as I have seen poor choice of words by users.



I think this is a point that shouldn't be overlooked. Over the past years, there have been many examples of downright antagonistic communication from a few sample developers, and I believe this has contributed to the general "us vs. them" vibe that has crept into the way developers and users treat each other now. I personally don't feel that CineSamples deserve to be on the pointy end of that pitchfork, but it's something that ultimately affects everyone as it feeds mistrust and frustration on both sides.


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## Maestro77 (Dec 6, 2012)

Mike, you look exhausted! As composers, former band members, or whatever else we may be here in this community, we've all had to deal with the same things. We've worked our arses off on our music and received feedback from fans/others. I am like you - even though 99% of said feedback is positive, the only ones I remember are the negative. That means we strive for perfection. It only takes one negative comment to ruin our day.

I think that's the case here. It sucks that one such comment has cost you guys hours of research to attempt to repair a problem that no one else seems to have. That shows us all how outstanding your customer service is.

When you put yourself out there on the public market, there will ALWAYS be people who don't like what you do, for various reasons. And as long as there's an internet those people will (and should, really) feel free to share their thoughts. It's up to the rest of us, as intelligent forum members, to decide if the source of such negativity is legitimate. I think we're all smart enough to see through this stuff.

Bottom line is, you've put out the best orchestral percussion library on the market, in my opinion. And your track record of continuing to improve all your libraries via updates and additional content means it'll stay that way. Thanks for all your hard work and congrats. Now go have some tea.


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## windshore (Dec 6, 2012)

As a mod on VI-control I have to tell you all that very little happens that we aren't quickly aware of.

I wouldn't say I'm making an "official" comment on behalf of the forum, I would, however share that the mods often have lively "discussions" behind the scenes about how much to "insert ourselves" into a thread, or to take any action against a user. (- or to even contact a user about their behavior.)

I have argued many times that mods should be more assertive. But, many users, and many mods believe that people reveal themselves pretty clearly, and if someone is just being a jerk, most everyone can see that. Most of us then don't pay much attention to what that person says, and their posts in general don't get a lot of respect.

With time, I've come to appreciate this approach as well. Let people hang themselves, don't feed their need to create a stir.

So, if you find yourself unhappy with a library or developer, state your specific points clearly but dispassionately. - That's if you actually want your comments to be heard and be effective.

If you want to vent and you need to be a jerk, please understand that few people will consider your viewpoint as creditable, or worthy of much more thought.

Mark


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## JT (Dec 6, 2012)

Mike, thanks for your thoughts. But, I view the unnecessarily negative posts here and elsewhere as just a by product of the anonymity of the internet. It's real easy to badmouth a product, seems like a sport that many enjoy. 

My wife and I are victims of this too. She's an author, and someone hiding behind a username can say any negative thing they want about her book. It doesn't even matter what their credentials are or even if they've read it. It's very frustrating, just have to consider the source and move on.

For me, I'm about to purchase Cinewinds. Keep doing what you're doing and let the sludge just fall to the bottom.

JT


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 6, 2012)

I visit this site as often as anyone else, many, many times a day. For the life of me, I can't see this 'turn for the worse'. I'd love to see some proof, some stats, anything that backs up this 'feeling'. I do see lots of love and respect for developers, and few negative, destructive comments, but somehow, these are the ones that stick out for many developers. I know some artists, it's happened to me too, who will get 20 'great work' and 2 'that sucked', and all they can think about the rest of the day is that 2 people hate their work.


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## kgdrum (Dec 6, 2012)

To Mike & Mike and the entire Cinesamples team,please realize most of the feedback and comments IMO have been from my perspective has been extremely complimentary and constructive.
Unfortunately here and there 1 or 2 posters who for whatever reason have an ax to grind & feel empowered with their anominity on the Internet can derail a thread with 1 or 2 inflammatory posts.
I've been looking to purchase an Orchestral Percussion Library for about a year and up until the release of CinPerc I actually had made up my mind that a library from another sample company was going to be my choice.
With this release to say I've changed my mind would be an understatement!
I haven't been this awestruck or excited about a new release in a long time!
After seeing the Core walk through I keep on looking for walk throughs for the other parts of the libraries.
I love Cinesamples approach,passion and dedication to their craft.
I also love the energy & passion of most of what goes on at Vi-Control,yeah every now and then a thread gets derailed by a negative post but I do think more positive constructive threads develop here on the whole.
This is a passionate community with all sorts of opinionated independant creative people who aren't always going to agree on everything or be polite about it.
I for one am very glad the freedom for open discussion is encouraged here unlike NS or other corporate driven forums that delete or ban posts that don't follow their agenda.
I hope 1 or 2 negative posters don't ruin all of the wonderful discussions and informative threads that develop here,because overall its a great community for users and developers.


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## jamwerks (Dec 6, 2012)

I wouldn't be against some stiff moderation to impose respectful, professional, adult behavior around here. On the street, if you act like a dick, you get you ass kicked. No reason why on forums, assholes should be have free rein.

It would also attract more respectful adult professionals to participate.

FWIW, seems Gearslutz cracked down a while back, with lots of deleted posts and exclusions, and seems like a better forum to me. And by the numbers, it seems to be flourishing.


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## playz123 (Dec 6, 2012)

Thank you Mike for your heartfelt comments....message received loud and clear....and rest assured that you have my support for your suggestions.

The trend of criticizing (or worse) while basically remaining anonymous continues to grow everywhere on the internet and not just on this forum and I suggest that many others, not only developers, come in contact with it on a daily basis. Personally I believe it's part of a growing trend based on many of the reasons discussed in the threads about piracy here. The art of being able to mention possible problems or discuss issues without denigrating a product or person continues to decline everywhere, so it's not unreasonable to be surprised when it happens here occasionally as well. And although it's no consolation, you guys have actually received far less of that sort of thing than at least one other company whose products are also discussed on the forum. 

In any case, not only do I consider your message to be relevant and a bit of a wake-up call, it's a good reminder to us all, developers and customers alike, to remain alert when preparing our own messages, consider what we have written before hitting the Submit button, and to also consider the impact our message may have on all concerned. Currently, some people do that already, some do it some of the time and some seldom think before they speak or write. But if your reminder gets through to others...and I'm sure it will... then it will all have been worthwhile. Thanks again for taking the time to express your feelings and offer your perspective. Cheers...and much success both now and in the future.


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## TomMartin (Dec 6, 2012)

Audio on the vid had too much quantization noise, and obvious misuse of RX. You can clearly hear this when he speaks with the snare wires activated, as they are just noise themselves.


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## Vision (Dec 6, 2012)

My theory.. 

People are a little spoiled, more so now than ever before. Just an observation.

10+ years ago, we had libraries such as Peter Szedlacsek.. Miroslav Vitous which sold for over 3k. Legato: non existent. 8 bit samples? Direct Download: non existent. Direct developer to customer interaction: Not happening. To get decent musical results from these "state of the art" sample libraries, you needed approximately.. a billion computers. Your midi orchestration wouldn't sound complete unless you created a one billion track template for all of your 20 billion articulations, for each instrument section. No round robins. 1.5 GB Ram Max Per computer. Single processor CPU, with a single 32X CD-ROM drive to load all of your sample libraries with..

And you liked it. 

Fast forward to 2012-13. Computers have exponentially more processing power. Samples sound much more authentic, and are for the most part much easier to use. Direct Download is generally considered standard. Libraries are relatively cheaper.. you generally get more bang for the buck with these current libraries as compared to past libs. There are more independent sample library developers now than in the past, which equals many more options for the end user. V.I. Control, I'm sure, has gained more notoriety throughout the years, sparking much more interest in creating virtual music.. from people of varying skill levels. If you take a step back for a second, it's somewhat easy to take all of this for granted. 

Combine all of this with relative ease of access to developers, on a human to human, emotional level: Mike in a 4 minute video, shrugging his shoulders basically saying "wtf guys?"

Cinesamples is still learning and adapting as they expand as a company, I'm sure. I'll say that I've seen, and experienced way more positives than negatives from using their products. 

Mike and gang, keep up the good work. I'm definitely intrigued by what you guys are going to bring to the table with an upcoming strings library. Come on man.. There's no way that you guys aren't doing a strings library.. :roll:


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## guydoingmusic (Dec 6, 2012)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Thu Dec 06 said:


> I visit this site as often as anyone else, many, many times a day. For the life of me, I can't see this 'turn for the worse'. I'd love to see some proof, some stats, anything that backs up this 'feeling'. I do see lots of love and respect for developers, and few negative, destructive comments, but somehow, these are the ones that stick out for many developers. I know some artists, it's happened to me too, who will get 20 'great work' and 2 'that sucked', and all they can think about the rest of the day is that 2 people hate their work.



You ever heard of the phrase - "The rotten apple spoils the bunch"?

Psychology says it takes 10 positives to trump every 1 negative comment. Constructive feedback is wanted by every developer that comes here. It helps them focus on things that may need tweaking. But to just openly bash something... over and over and over... etc. is just childish. I agree that everyone has a right to their opinion... but it sure is easy to hide behind a computer screen and type all those words.

To the Mikes (Tyson not included):
You guys are awesome! I feel like the best way to deal with this situation, might be this ----> http://youtu.be/4l1_8wefR7c If you need an extra hand... let me know! I'll go!

Brad

Brad


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## marclawsonmusic (Dec 6, 2012)

I was utterly gutted to hear this.

For my part, I have been extremely impressed with everything Cinesamples has done. My first purchase was Cinebrass Core and it's truly an amazing library.

The Mikes have always seemed like approachable and caring guys, always taking time to chime in on vi-control or Twitter.

For the life of me, I can't understand why some people are rude and negative like this, but it's not the first time I've seen it. Some asshole was harassing Eric P a couple of weeks ago and people have also been rude to Hans. Thankfully, neither of those guys has been run off yet - they still chime in from time to time.

Please don't assume that all of us are ignorant and ungrateful bastards. I always appreciate you guys taking time to weigh in and engage with the community. This goes for all of the library developers and audio pros out there.

Hopefully, the stupid kid-trolls won't ruin it for the rest of us... :evil:


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## synthetic (Dec 6, 2012)

I agree with everything Mike said. The negative tone at VI is the reason I don't post very often anymore. I hope that this can be fixed.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Dec 6, 2012)

Just my thoughts:

I think people are saying all this stuff to an extent only about those developers who come here to speak freely with the members and try to establish a one-to-one relationship and promote their products under their own name.

This will always attract a certain kind of behavior because its very easy to type something into a vi-control reply box than actually say any of this in person. It could also be just to instigate matters without prior knowledge or understanding of any of the parameters needed to successfully make good sounding music from such libraries.

There are many people I meet or read about on this forum who just talk about something they read the other day in a thread or in a book or from someone as a matter of fact. This always happens. On a forum, you don't really have a way to stop this.

You will not see VSL or few other companies directly interacting with their customers in such a free and friendly way. This works for them in a way.

Even though most people on this forum seem to have navigated away from VSL and lot of people don't like the dry samples (mostly because its more work IMHO) you will not see them bash VSL products so much.

In fact, VSL is hardly a talking point these days.

Whereas, people like Mike and Troels who have made an effort to come here and reply personally, have been attacked at times.

Unfortunately, I think despite their best intentions, it might be a good idea to reply only under a company user account or reply less often to maintain a healthy distance. Things can get very emotional.

It is a nice gesture to come here and really hope to improve things.

But, sincerely you are not going to improve a lot of things by listening to amateurs who either don't know how write this kind of music or cant program well.

I saw a percussion sample list comparison as a way to determine which library was offering more or better. I mean - come on!

Professionals who actually use these products as they are meant to be are more likely to give real feedback. This can be achieved in beta-testing by hand picking users from this forum or by privately talking to professionals. 

It is unlikely (not impossible) to hear from guys who are hobbyists about how to improve a particular product because they are either not devoting enough time to use these products properly or do not have the programming chops. Also, they are not working in the industry which is a completely different thing than writing music for leisure at home. No offence to anyone.

Part of this is the pricing too. People say its too expensive. Well, most of this stuff is not. It's decently priced and in some cases even very cheap. A library worth even $1000 will pay many more times if you are a good composer with good skills. You will land up with more work at some point. If not, then it is hard and yes it may take some time. But honestly, I don't know anyone in my life who is really good and at the top of their game without any work. It rarely happens but I have not witnessed this personally. 

Good luck to Cinesamples. I know nobody sets out to make a bad sample library. Of course. But, some are good, some are better for different things and as composers/producers/programmers we are always hoping for high quality virtual instruments. 


Best,

Tanuj.


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## Andrew Aversa (Dec 6, 2012)

I definitely support the Mikes and their outstanding work. As a developer myself, I know how frustrating it is when one or two users publicly harp on issues that are extremely minor/specific, ignoring the bigger picture. Sometimes, rather than going back and forth with someone like that, it's better to say "Look, our library was intended for X. No library can be everything for everyone. (Issue X) is a natural part of the design and recording process, and isn't a problem for the intended usage."

That being said - VI is without a doubt THE most mature and civil forum I have ever been on. Forums like KVR Audio and Gearslutz, while treasure troves are information, are generally WAY more hostile. The very worst threads on VI look like tea time compared to some of the discussions I've seen on KVR where some developers have been utterly torn to shreds. Seriously, there is no comparison.

And even KVR/Gearslutz is nowhere close to the hostility you will find in game-related forums like NEOgaf. If you've ever wanted to be told that you literally should die because someone didn't like the game you worked on, that's the place to go. The kind of criticism I see here is at least well-meaning compared to the raw vitriol on forums like that. It makes me feel very bad for my friends who work inhouse in game development.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 6, 2012)

synthetic @ 6/12/2012 said:


> I agree with everything Mike said. The negative tone at VI is the reason I don't post very often anymore. I hope that this can be fixed.



One way to help is to contribute with some positive posts/threads, of course.


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## karmadharma (Dec 6, 2012)

I am still a fairly new member on this site, so I don't have exposure to its history and 'how things were', however I have been around internet forums for many, many years and what I am seeing here seems to me just a function of the site's success.

The more people you have on a forum the greater the chance that some of those people will be people that do not like what you do/how you do it and will let you know about it. If you add to this the fact that written text is sterile and that often there are language barriers (English is not my first language for example), any criticism will come across way worse than it would if, say, you were at a pub chatting and your buddy smiling lets you know how you messed up on something.

You also get more people, of course, for whom everything you do is as great and amazing as possible, and they will let you know about it too. And as much as it's great to listen to those for a good confidence boost, you do need criticism to improve, so having only positive feedback is not the best.

The worst thing a forum can do is to institute a policy where critical posts are pulled, because then you end up in the situation where the forum is not trusted anymore, people will start leaving, there will be less discussion and the forum will eventually disappear. As long as dissenting opinions are expressed respectfully and honestly they should be welcomed because they will likely spark some insightful discussions. If the criticism is expressed dishonestly or in a trolling matter then of course it's up to the mods to put a stop to that.

Personally as soon as my new DAW computer is finished I will send some money your way, not only because I think your libraries sound very good (as a drummer primarily I know first hand how difficult it is to sample percussion, and core percussion sound just fine to my ears) but also because a developer that is active on a forum and approachable and actually listens is worth rewarding.

I was really impressed how you went to the trouble to actually do a video in the other thread where you tried to reproduce the scenario with the complaints and to understand what was going on, so in the end as you can see a 'negative' post will end up with you getting some additional sales...


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## Niah (Dec 6, 2012)

If you are going to venture into the realm of orchestral sampling and other things that people are very passionate about and have a very specific and sometimes very rigid idea of how things should sound....be prepared for a storm of "where is this dude coming from?" comments.

However this is far from happening as others have stated, I consider CS to be one of the most beloved companies at the moment here at VI Control only rivaled by Spitfire.

I subscribe to anything that Ned said and windshore and I really feel that you have way more things to be happy about than sad about this place.

What is sad is to see again VI Control having a bad reputation. :roll:


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## MichaelL (Dec 6, 2012)

Niah @ Thu Dec 06 said:


> If you are going to venture into the realm of orchestral sampling and other things that people are very passionate about and have a very specific and sometimes very rigid idea of how things should sound.:



Nothing but respect for the CineSamples crew in this corner, going back to CineHarp (which I still use). Mike and Mike are tops, especially when it comes to customer service. A few years back. Mike P., even answered an email from me, while he was flying home for the holidays with his family. As I recall, he had to wait for his daughter to give up the computer to provide me with a download link. 

With respect to VI, there are a few prima donnas here, who like the sound of their own voice, to be sure. Those individuals will never be happy with any sampled instrument until they can hear sweat dripping from the brow of the umpteenth chair second violinist, and even then probably not. 

As someone, who has actually earned a living using sampled instruments for almost 25 years, starting with the original emulator, rather than bemoan the slightest (and most often meaningless) flaws, I am absolutely thrilled with the state of sampled instruments.

To be honest, I have heard negative comments about VI Control from other composers. They find the discussion is often dominated by a narrow-minded group of film-oriented composers, would be and/or former, whose disdain for contemporary music is overbearing. Don't shoot the messenger. I try to ignore those discussions, as I find them tedious.

The negatives are far out weighed by the positives, as I have been able to communicate with, and receive advice from some composers whose work I really admire.

So Kudos to Mike & Mike AND to Frederick. You all contribute greatly to our passion for using virtual instruments.

All the best,

Michael


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## NYC Composer (Dec 6, 2012)

Okay, a few comments.

First, I've been decrying incivility here for a few years now. I DO think it's gotten worse. What frustrates and confuses me is that more people don't stand up and be counted when it's obvious that rude, unnecessary behavior consistently rears its ugly head. There are MANY passionate yet polite people here-I wish they would let their voices be heard and drown out the adolescent behavior of a few. That said, I disagree with implementing Mommy and Daddy moderation style. One of the things like best about this place is the non N.S.-ness of it. Please, let's keep it so.

To Mike- I think a lot of what you said was heartfelt and warranted, but there's another aspect. Many of us pour our heart and soul into our work, and work long hours. I certainly support you and your company becoming very successful. The fact that you're in a startup phase (even after 6 years) has a few aspects to it. First, most businesses take investment of time, money and hard work to become successful. As I assume that is your ultimate goal, to make some nice money while doing things that interest you, and you ARE growing, you are now perceived as major player in a fairly small market. There will be slings and arrows. They can be dealt with mildly and effectively. I've seen Andrew from LASS do so, Alex from CS. Their line of products is not as extensive as yours, so perhaps there's less they have to deal with, but still. I remember some VERY sensitive and reactive posts from you guys when you had first brought out CineBrass. I also remember a great deal of promotion to get your product pitted against Hollywood Brass(the words "Sony Stage" come to mind), and that got a bit ugly here and there between you and EW. When you come out and tell people your product is going to be the greatest thing since sliced bread, there is likely going to be some backlash from customers who perceive flaws in your diamond. I'm not making apologies for the unnecessary edginess of many of those responses, but if you put yourself out there, especially with a lot of self promotion, some of that is inevitable.

Btw, I also think you probably have to expect a certain amount of vitriol if people perceive you are moving on to your newest product without dealing with problems in the one they just bought. I understand the business realities behind that, but still.

To put a period on all of this rambling, yes, I agree, V.I.C., though a great place, would be a better place with some self policing, but your problems with some of the heated comments might be improved by not taking things to heart so much and simply expressing concern for someone's difficulties with a product and asking them to send in support tickets. That, along with recognizing that some people will never be satisfied with anything, may help you sleep better :wink: Cheers and good luck!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 6, 2012)

And to think that all along I assumed the Mikes weren't real people!

Man, you learn something every day.


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## MichaelL (Dec 6, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Dec 06 said:


> And to think that all along I assumed the Mikes weren't real people!
> 
> Man, you learn something every day.




Nick..even the OTHER M&Ms and Santa Claus are real. 
Don't you watch commercials? :lol:


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## MacQ (Dec 6, 2012)

I've been quite pleased with the quality of the material CineSamples does, and I'm happy to support your continued endeavour. I like that you tackle projects I would never in a million years attempt to do myself! 

Negative comments are borne out of frustration more often than not, or out of some misguided delusion as to what a product is supposed to be and do. Like over on the Steinberg forums where everyone says Cubase is terrible -- it's only the tiny minority who are frustrated enough to post, and the majority go about their business every day with very few problems.

Ultimately I'm happy you recorded a video. Nothing conveys tone any better, and some users forget that REAL PEOPLE slave away for hours on end to make these products a reality. 

Keep up the good work, and remember: Simon Ravn is a fan, and he hates everything!


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## Simon Ravn (Dec 6, 2012)

MacQ @ Thu Dec 06 said:


> Keep up the good work, and remember: Simon Ravn is a fan, and he hates everything!



True 8)


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 6, 2012)

Although I'm not a developer, I still have the pressure (not from VSL, but from me) of getting positive reactions regarding the dedicated samples when posting demos, not just the writing. Just like Mike and Mike, it's what I poor my heart into. I have had my share of tons of positive comments but also some serious bashing, it has been a lot better in the last few years, but there were times where people, not all, needed a lesson on how to say a negative comment without being rude, and I do mean rude! Now, I don't get involved in these controversial discussions anymore, and prefer not to feed the hungry just waiting for an opportunity to rub you the wrong way. I guess I know better now. I'm just giving my 2 cents like others, but that's the price you pay on a forum that gives you more freedom of speech, you'll regularly get the downside of this every once in a while. I personally think there has always been slightly too much freedom of speech on this forum, even though I've been guilty a few times. But then, if your comments are censored, you get new threads about "freedom of speech" and blablabla. So there seems no ideal solution.


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## germancomponist (Dec 6, 2012)

I have great sympathy for the team of CineSamples. You work for months on a library, and then someone comes and insulted this work. That hurts! However, one must always reckon with such reviews and one must learn to deal with it! 

Never one should take such criticism personally! o/~


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## NYC Composer (Dec 6, 2012)

Guy Bacos @ Thu Dec 06 said:


> Although I'm not a developer, I still have the pressure (not from VSL, but from me) of getting positive reactions regarding the dedicated samples when posting demos, not just the writing. Just like Mike and Mike, it's what I poor my heart into. I have had my share of tons of positive comments but also some serious bashing, it has been a lot better in the last few years, but there were times where people, not all, needed a lesson on how to say a negative comment without being rude, and I do mean rude! Now, I don't get involved in these controversial discussions anymore, and prefer not to feed the hungry just waiting for an opportunity to rub you the wrong way. I guess I know better now. I'm just giving my 2 cents like others, but that's the price you pay on a forum that gives you more freedom of speech, you'll regularly get the downside of this every once in a while. I personally think there has always been slightly too much freedom of speech on this forum, even though I've been guilty a few times. But then, if your comments are censored, you get new threads about "freedom of speech" and blablabla. So there seems no ideal solution.



Instead of those blahblah freedom of speech threads, Guy,we should have mods wasting their time deciding who is being rude enough to be banned or censored? I really can't agree. Rather, as I mentioned before, let the community speak out against that stuff and/or learn to ignore those who can't be civil, rather than engaging them at their level.


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 6, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Thu Dec 06 said:


> Instead of those blahblah freedom of speech threads, Guy,we should have mods wasting their time deciding who is being rude enough to be banned or censored? I really can't agree. Rather, as I mentioned before, let the community speak out against that stuff and/or learn to ignore those who can't be civil, rather than engaging them at their level.



BTW, when I said "blablablah", I didn't meant it as nonsense, just that people had a lot to say about this.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 6, 2012)

Guy Bacos @ Thu Dec 06 said:


> NYC Composer @ Thu Dec 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Instead of those blahblah freedom of speech threads, Guy,we should have mods wasting their time deciding who is being rude enough to be banned or censored? I really can't agree. Rather, as I mentioned before, let the community speak out against that stuff and/or learn to ignore those who can't be civil, rather than engaging them at their level.
> ...



I see what you mean. As to the rest, we'll just agree to disagree about forum management.

Your work is consistently excellent, btw. Cheers.


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## re-peat (Dec 6, 2012)

Odd one out again, I’m afraid. Not my kind of video. Not at all. I don’t like the message and I certainly don’t like the majority of the responses. And I’m getting seriously worried by threads such as these, I must say. Looking around for some window I can open, in fact, cause it starts to smell awfully bad around here. Not so much because of that video itself, but because of the despressingly deferential atmosphere of the whole thread. Before long, this kinda thing will create a suffocating stench of pseudo-civility and goose-stepping submissiveness around here; a dreary, depressive, walking-on-eggshells-type of atmosphere in which nobody dares to say anything anymore for fear of being chastised for trolling or being poisonous, rude and unappreciative, or whatever idiotic accusation the always politically correct Good Manners Brigade invariably comes up with.
A situation which, believe me, will ultimately be far, far worse — for the forum as a resource and a community, and for each of us, be it as customer or as developer — than the occasional episode of mild unpleasantness or derailment which now occurs once in a while in some thread or other.

By the way: the only reason 'Piano In Blue' doesn’t have distorted samples anymore is because some troublesome, poisonous, rude and unappreciative prick first pointed it out. If that arrogant nuisance-of-a-member hadn’t insisted and persisted with mentioning it, the 'Blue' would probably still be distorted today. It took quite a bit of distressing effort (read the thread), but in the end, CineSamples recognized that the flaw was indeed there and the problem got solved. So, to all of you out there who are now enjoying a distortion-free piano: please remember how that came about, before subscribing to the brain-dead sillyness which this video message invites you to. 
And if the next update of 'CineWinds' (whenever it may arrive) will no longer be plagued (or significantly less so) by ridiculously poor-sounding samples (flute, oboe, alto flute, to name just three badly afflicted instruments), it will also be because some troublesome, poisonous, rude and unappreciative bastard made the effort to mention the presence of these samples in the first place. Again, not a happy memory, but one hopes: for the better. 

If, from now on, the number of children which a developer has to feed, or the amount of employees he has under his responsibility, or whatever insane irrelevance he may bring to the table, will start to have a bearing on how we're supposed to discuss his libraries, … I mean, come on, what’s next? Total Garritanism all over again?
And the thing is, people accusing NS or Soundsonline for being dictatorial and repressive, are actually applauding this evolution? Two-faced, spineless and dangerous cowardness, if you ask me.

In short, this message, the sick idea behind it, and the almost unanimous sheepish, follow-the-pied-piper-response … In my trolling opinion: a most disconcerting all-time low in the history of V.I. Not a day to cherish, not a moment to be proud of, if this is going to be a new beginning.

And what I want to add, just for the record: whatever change may be upon us, it sure as hell won’t stop me from saying whatever I think needs saying. If some developer sells me material of inferior quality — no matter how many video messages he may post, no matter how many children he has to feed, no matter what credentials he and his crew may have acquired —, I won’t hesitate to say so. Never. I’m fully prepared to behave professionaly and respectfully, but then I expect to be served equally professionaly and respectfully as well. That’s how it works between me and my clients too. Seems only right to me.

Developers recording inferior-sounding samples, or releasing out-of-tune libraries and poorly-functioning software, or selling a library which already requires a major update within days of its first release, or never solving problems that urgently need to be solved … tell me, from one professional to another: is that decent, professional and respectful? I don’t think so. And I’ll keep saying so. And I hope other people will too.

_


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## Niah (Dec 6, 2012)

I find it really confusing the usage of the term "freedom of speech" in this particular context of a discussion forum on the internet. I am not contesting against the freedom of speech threads but rather the use of the term...

If for some reason I get banned on VI Control, the administrators are not depriving me of any rights, because I still maintain the right to express myself... just not on this forum of course.

If I own a site or a youtube account, facebook, etc...I can block people and it still isn't a violation of freedom of speech. If I own a bar and I want to throw someone out because I don't like his or hers opinion or simply because they smell I can do this and it still isn't a violation of freedom of speech.

I don't know maybe I'm wrong but I just don't get it.


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## FriFlo (Dec 6, 2012)

re-peat @ Thu Dec 06 said:


> Odd one out again, I’m afraid. Not my kind of video. Not at all. I don’t like the message and I certainly don’t like the majority of the responses. And I’m getting seriously worried by threads such as these, I must say. Looking around for some window I can open, in fact, cause it starts to smell awfully bad around here. Not so much because of that video itself, but because of the despressingly deferential atmosphere of the whole thread. Before long, this kinda thing will create a suffocating stench of pseudo-civility and goose-stepping submissiveness around here; a dreary, depressive, walking-on-eggshells-type of atmosphere in which nobody dares to say anything anymore for fear of being chastised for trolling or being poisonous, rude and unappreciative, or whatever idiotic accusation the always politically correct Good Manners Brigade invariably comes up with.
> A situation which, believe me, will ultimately be far, far worse — for the forum as a resource and a community, and for each of us, be it as customer or as developer — than the occasional episode of mild unpleasantness or derailment which now occurs once in a while in some thread or other.
> 
> 
> ...



:mrgreen: o[])


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 6, 2012)

Aaaargh, Piet! I like that Blue distortion! 

And your post is right on, as far as I'm concerned.

IMHO, this is not a new beginning, but just an end-of-year retreat. Where's the sweat lodge?


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## NYC Composer (Dec 6, 2012)

Niah @ Thu Dec 06 said:


> I find it really confusing the usage of the term "freedom of speech" in this particular context of a discussion forum on the internet. I am not contesting against the freedom of speech threads but rather the use of the term...
> 
> If for some reason I get banned on VI Control, the administrators are not depriving me of any rights, because I still maintain the right to express myself... just not on this forum of course.
> 
> ...



The issue is not generalized freedom of speech-it is freedom of speech, or not, on this particular forum. Its owner makes the rules.i prefer them as they are. You are free to disagree.


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## jamwerks (Dec 6, 2012)

I don't think anyone has suggested censoring the criticism, it's about the tone.
Even extreme criticism or "bashing" can at times be ok.

A lot of the companies around here go out on a limb financially to produce innovative stuff, with a lot at stake. So we here should take that into consideration.

But at the same time, companies and individules need to raise the level of their communication and interventions.

Early on in this CinePerc affaire, someone at Cinesamples, said something like "it's been mixed by the best, don't feed the trole", which imo was the source of a lot that followed. So there is work to do from both sides. To say nothing of some of the EW developers statements at times.....


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## jamwerks (Dec 6, 2012)

re-peat @ Thu Dec 06 said:


> By the way: the only reason 'Piano In Blue' doesn’t have distorted samples anymore is because some troublesome, poisonous, rude and unappreciative prick first pointed it out.



You were right to point that out, but your tone is very aggressive now and then. Your being a prick (your words) didn't serve you or your cause a bit imo.


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## givemenoughrope (Dec 6, 2012)

I have no experience with CS since I've only just recently bought Piano In blue in the 2.0 form but it seems like they're open to talking to their customers and don't insult them openly like other developers. I certainly have nothing against the Mikes or their approach from where I'm standing. Them seem ok to me. 

Not to split hairs, but if you're feeding three kids in LA from your business, you aren't breaking even; you're doing something right and good for you.


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 6, 2012)

Hehe, well I'm not going to rebottle to some of the nonsense I read in one of the post. And I'm sure no developer is impressed by it. A well articulated comment straight to the point without being rude will have the same effect if not more. This is a false belief that you have to give the company shit to get the attention, otherwise it's worthless and a waste of time.


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## maest (Dec 6, 2012)

We are not perfect, we are human, we are emotional... But just want to say a few things here:

Eleanor Roosevelt had two great quotes I always go to in terms of this "Freedom" bit:

"Freedom makes a huge requirement of every human being. With freedom comes responsibility. For the person who is unwilling to grow up, the person who does not want to carry is own weight, this is a frightening prospect."

AND

"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."

As a developer, the only thing I want to say is this:

We do truly welcome criticism... it may be a little hard to take sometimes, but if the vast majority of our users are unhappy with something we missed - we WANT to fix it. It may take a lot of time, effort and complete retooling on our part to figure out how to respond, but we do want to give the best libraries out there. 

BUT as a "critic" of something - please keep in mind the hours taken, the expense taken and the risks taken when criticizing ANYTHING. When presenting Criticism, do so with a willingness to understand what the possible issues were and with "helping the developer" attitude to attain the goals that get you the best product. Berating, discouraging, angry, and unusable comments help no-one - specially the community and the developers.

Lemme tell you how our customer service works:

Every time I approach and update, I gather all of our CUSTOMER SUPPORT TICKETS, and will look to VI Control and Facebook to see what OTHER issues may have missed our CST system. If they are attainable in the timeline I have to fix something, make sense to fix, or are a disfunction of the library - we address those. I guarantee you, if the person is vitriolic in anyway, they are usually ignored, because chances are - if it is a problem, someone else has mentioned it in away I can address and reproduce. 

Frustration in a product that doesn't function in the way you expect especially after you spent money, IS VERY UNDERSTANDABLE! But please help us by saying it in a way such as: 
"Hey there is this really bad click on X-note on X-velocity on X-mic, it is really messing with my mix here. anyway you can help with that?" - THOSE WORK! 

VS.

"This library is unusable and sounds like crap!" - THAT DOES NOT WORK!

We are small, we are growing, but I want our product to be above the rest - we will miss stuff, we will make decisions that don't work for all people - that's why this place exists. People post pros and cons of the purchase. We relish the Pros and Fix the Cons (if possible). Point is this is a good community, but there are a handful that need to mind their fingers when they type and be respectful as well as present problems that make the product hard to use - or better yet, ask how to use it properly - or what the reason was behind a decision or mistake. Clarification is ALWAYS BETTER...

Okay that was longer than I thought I would be... sorry.

Best,

Sam Estes


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## MacQ (Dec 6, 2012)

Piet, I always call it like I see it (you'll recall our disagreement about the pricing of the IRCAM Prepared Piano), and I'd never advocate blindly-adherent fanboyism of any kind.

In my opinion, everyone should conduct themselves like Eric Persing, carefully considering the implicit tone of what they write before hitting "QuickReply". As you say, criticism doesn't have to be destructive, and can actually help the community at large. And we can all enjoy ourselves instead of feeling provoked or victimized.

I respect you a great deal for your conviction.


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## jamwerks (Dec 6, 2012)

Nice post Sam !


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## NYC Composer (Dec 6, 2012)

@Sam-resolving the inherent problem between tone and content may not help you as much as you think. Here are two examples-

1. "YOUR PRODUCT SUCKS AND DOESN'T WORK!"
2. "After purchase, I have found inherent flaws in your product that make it unusable for me. Here they are, in order of importance:

A.Blah blah
B. blah blah blah
C. Re-blah.

After reading your promotional materials, I had high hopes for the product. Will these issues be addressed? Thank you for attention."

Obviously, response #2 is more mannered and respectfully put, but it's probably not going to help sales. In matter of fact, it may hurt them more than the first, more ill-mannered approach.

On the other hand, if you're going to accept "Your product is AWESOME! It's changed my life!! My wife has started SLEEPING with me again!!!" sorts of posts within a forum, you have to be prepared for the mannered disappointment as well. That's the nature of this sort of forum. Much as we'd like to concentrate on the good, when you spend money on something, it's business, not personal.

See what I'm sayin'?


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## synthetic (Dec 6, 2012)

If you email the company directly, and list your problems in detail, they might even make you a beta tester. It has happened to me a few times.


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## Goran (Dec 6, 2012)

My 5 cents on this subject:

I don't find anything inappropriate to this video, on the contrary. It doesn't at any point ask for any sort of critique censorship or "deference". What it does ask for, is a critique based on substance and argument, not on flashy rhetorics and arbitrary vilification, which btw usually only serve the purpose of masking an absence of any substance to it. 

There is also another, very troubling aspect to this - more often then not, I have a feeling that some comments on library/software products have nothing whatsoever to do with pointing to really existing issues, but are made solely _mala fide_, to hurt a developer by trying to "build" them a bad reputation, often based on hyperbole and/or outright nonsense. CineSample developers have every right to point to the destructiveness of such behaviour.


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## maest (Dec 6, 2012)

@NYC Composer - Tru Dat! 

Actually its what I look for with the CST (Customer Support Tickets) - we want to directly address issues. Still that is better handled through our CST system - much more direct that way and we can track it much better. So your #2 may stop people from buying the library initially, and gives us reason to fix something - so when we do fix it, the ones that decided against it, hopefully will buy it.

SO What I am looking for: 
Say I have a library that contains a hurdy-gurdy sample in it, say the true problem is the sound of the wheel turning extra and activates the buzzer string (Trompette/Chien - for those hurdy-gurdy-olo-philes)

Comments:
1) There this contant buzzing sound that is really annoying - can't use the library, you guys suck, want my money back.

VS

2) Hey - I noticed when playing velocity 50 on A3 using the close mic, there was this buzz that started halfway through the sample - do you know what caused that, are you aware of it?

Response to 
1) - "How so?" (inviting more vitriolic comments from an unhappy customer)

2) - AH - I see what is happening, looks like the buzzer got excited by accident. Sorry there is really not much we can do with that was an issue, we can try to stretch the velocity back to replace it... or I can go back to Protools, maybe we have a better sample - We are adding this problem to the list now...

It just helps us out to be direct in the criticism, again - making better libraries. Asking us why something is the way it is, usually clears up misconceptions for both parties... 

K - Back to work now...

-Sam


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## sin(x) (Dec 6, 2012)

Guy Bacos @ 2012-12-06 said:


> This is a false belief that you have to give the company shit to get the attention, otherwise it's worthless and a waste of time.



The trouble is that there _are_ businesses that won't even consider putting energy into fixing their already released products unless they feel that there's a potentially cash flow disrupting amount of anger among their client base. I have tremendous respect for developers who show a honest interest to get their stuff working as smoothly for as many people as possible, but everyone who's been reading this forum for some time has probably also witnessed one or more cases in which users who _did_ report problems in a civil manner were brushed off by the respective developers (“can't reproduce, problem must be on your end”) until they either gave up, or enough vitriol had accumulated to actually set some gears in motion.


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## IFM (Dec 6, 2012)

My response is short but to just say CS has become my favorite developer and no amount of other's nitpicking is going to change that. Keep them coming!


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## wst3 (Dec 6, 2012)

I think discourse in general has taken a turn for the worse, and it has influenced some of the threads here. And that is a problem. Not just for composers, but for citizens at large!

My first contact with one of the Mikes was quite some time ago, I can't remember anything about the contact except that he did not immediately identify himself as one of the Mikes from Cinesamples, when I finally figured it out he was fine with that. It was pretty classy.

And I think it was tremendously courageous to post this video. And classy.

There are a couple library developers that don't spend nearly enough time here - and I think it is partly because comments shifted from constructive to antagonistic.

I am not suggesting that censorship or even guidelines are required, just some common courtesy and common sense.

If you disagree with, or dislike, business practices by all means feel free to say so, but don't attack the people behind the company, and don't assume you know better than they how to run the business. You might be right, but you might not.

If you find a library somehow lacking you should, again, feel free to speak up. You might help another composer avoid the same mistake. OR, it may be wrong for you, but right for others.

One of the biggest problems today is that we buy these libraries without having the opportunity to use them. We have to make fairly significant decisions based on demos made by folks who have had lots of time to get inside the libraries, or comments left here. That's not optimal!

Common sense, courtesy... that's all we need.


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## jamwerks (Dec 6, 2012)

sin(x) @ Fri Dec 07 said:


> Guy Bacos @ 2012-12-06 said:
> 
> 
> > The trouble is that there _are_ businesses that won't even consider putting energy into fixing their already released products unless they feel that there's a potentially cash flow disrupting amount of anger among their client base.



True, luckily there are only a couple such developers. We're lucking to be in an industry in which the developers are half in it for the passion. 

If we were in the carpet cleaning business, I don't know if we'd find the same thing.


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 6, 2012)

sin(x) @ Thu Dec 06 said:


> Guy Bacos @ 2012-12-06 said:
> 
> 
> > This is a false belief that you have to give the company [email protected]#t to get the attention, otherwise it's worthless and a waste of time.
> ...



Well, if you actually know for a fact that you are being neglected, while the company's employes are sipping lemonade by the pool, you would have reason to do so, but since you don't know that for sure, one should be careful how he states his complaints on a public forum, comments that stays for ever and wind up on google. That's all I'm saying.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 6, 2012)

Guy Bacos @ Thu Dec 06 said:


> sin(x) @ Thu Dec 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Guy Bacos @ 2012-12-06 said:
> ...



Everything winds up on Google, including all the positive comments. I can't see this as a serious argument for not expressing opinions in a public forum that could be construed to be negative.


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 6, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Thu Dec 06 said:


> Guy Bacos @ Thu Dec 06 said:
> 
> 
> > sin(x) @ Thu Dec 06 said:
> ...



I don't mean the google that backs up all data. Come on NYC composer! I mean, when you google a name, you will wind up with various links of threads of forums and who knows how it got there? It happens to me of threads posted 6-7 years ago on other forums. It's rare, but it can happen. But anyway, why nit pick on the least important part of my comment? How about the rest of what I said?


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## synapse21 (Dec 6, 2012)

Right on, Mike! I'm sure that many, many of us are with you 100% and know Cinesamples will continue to produce some of the best libraries in the business.

Haters flame forums like this in the game industry too, and their voices tend to rise to the immediate top and skew the reality of things, even if the changes are beneficial to them. I've seen my share of this with our community-based games.

Cinesamples has done more than most companies in free updates for your "living" libraries than most others out there. You guys are doing everything right.

Kudos!

- Rodney


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## mikebarry (Dec 6, 2012)

You guys are the breast. Thank you all for your support and emails - it makes a difference. 

We were up late working on stuff after working on this all day yesterday. Mike and I have this idea just to be as truthful as we can when we can't figure out a card to play and the video was part of that. It wasn't a knee jerk from yesterday's events either.

Thanks again for all the emails and support. Lets keep working together and make great music.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 6, 2012)

Guy Bacos @ Thu Dec 06 said:


> NYC Composer @ Thu Dec 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Guy Bacos @ Thu Dec 06 said:
> ...



Chill, Guy, and call me Larry  

Sorry, I don't understand you. Yes, negative threads could show up years after. So could positive threads. I'm confused how that is even arguable? I mean, this comment about your work will be showing up years from now- 

"Your work is consistently excellent, btw. Cheers."  

Pardon me, but what else did you say? That one should be careful with negative comments on a public forum regarding concerns as a buyer? Okay, I agree. If you've followed any of my posts over any period of time, you would have seen I have always called for civility and restraint. That doesn't mean one should only be able to say positive things, because then it's not a forum, it's a cheerleading squad. Soundsonline has a forum that's like that. That shouldn't be what this place is about. Cheers.


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 6, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Thu Dec 06 said:


> That doesn't mean one should only be able to say positive things, because then it's not a forum, it's a cheerleading squad. Soundsonline has a forum that's like that. That shouldn't be what this place is about. Cheers.



Hey Larry, why would you even say something like that? What does this have to do with me just saying to not be rude? Aren't you going way extreme with your cheerleading squad comment? 

And thanks for the nice comment, I do appreciate it. o-[][]-o


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## synergy543 (Dec 6, 2012)

Mikes, thanks for the videos. While I don't agree with all that you say, I think this thread is testament that you've brought a much needed human element to the table that has stirred up some very thoughtful comments coming from all different sides. A truly meaningful thread.

Even if we can't all come to complete agreement, this thread shows we can all come to the table and discuss our opinions with each other in a sincere way which is what is most important.

While I see Mike's point, I also see Piet's. And I appreciate the passionate comments from all sides even when they do get heated. In the end, we are all back at the table focusing on what drives us forward and...* truth and respect will prevail* despite all that may have been said. What a great thread, thanks to all.

btw, who the heck is Free Samples? Suggestion: You might gain some credibiltiy and will likely be more respectful of others if you lifted your anonymous veil. And how about joining the conversation?

@Cinesamples: In the future, why not request name and identity and address the individuals by name? There is no reason anyone stepping up to the plate need be anonymous with regards to such feedback. This will promote discussions amongst each other as we would likely do face-to-face. And it shouldn't inhibit civilized criticism either.

Greg


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## Dan Mott (Dec 6, 2012)

I like this forum because people can say what they want. If someone has something negative to say about a library, then good, I like that, as well as the positive.

Seems to be an on going trend where if someone doesn't like something about a library, then all the fanboys and all the people who disagree with that person, come in and stur shit up. Just take the bloody suggestion on board and discuss it in an understanding matter. Simple.


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## givemenoughrope (Dec 6, 2012)

mikebarry @ Thu Dec 06 said:


> You guys are the breast. Thank you all for your support



Just letting that hang here...har...

...but seriously, Piano in Blue is pretty great!


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## Arbee (Dec 6, 2012)

I think the vast majority of people here can distinguish one loud voice that is out of step pretty well. One voice loudly praising a product amongst general grumbling is not much different to one loud voice damning a product that it is generally well respected.

I remember getting a lonely "you'll struggle with this, it's crap" message on this forum about some of my planned percussion choices last year but took the plunge based on the general view. The libraries proved to be excellent and extremely easy to use, I now know to ignore this poster's views - zero credibility. Similarly in the other direction with overhyped and undisclosed advertising posts.

I would have hoped that we who write music would empathise with the same passions and insecurities experienced by developers of software. As someone who does both (but not music related on the software side), I can say we're all putting something out there we hope people will value and appreciate, and we would all like some basic respect, even with negative criticism.

Unfortunately, squeeky wheels do frequently invoke more emotive responses and action than over-politeness. Those who squeak know it, and enjoy it. The most helpful thing you can ever tell a developer is, politely, "whenever I do this, that always happens". Repeatable and fixable. If that doesn't get it resolved, then by all means make a noise.

This forum is a great place, let's keep it that way.


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## Vision (Dec 6, 2012)

synergy543 @ Thu Dec 06 said:


> btw, who the heck is Free Samples? Suggestion: You might gain some credibiltiy and will likely be more respectful of others if you lifted your anonymous veil. And how about joining the conversation?
> 
> @Cinesamples: In the future, why not request name and identity and address the individuals by name? There is no reason anyone stepping up to the plate need be anonymous with regards to such feedback. This will promote discussions amongst each other as we would likely do face-to-face. And it shouldn't inhibit civilized criticism either.
> 
> Greg



Why not take it a step further.. It would be nice to hear some examples of his music. It's nice to be able to recognize a curve ball, but can you actually step up to the plate and knock one out of the park.


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## kitekrazy (Dec 6, 2012)

I think most on google anyone can weed through the trollish reviews.

The sad truth is if you want to work in the world of small software development you need to grow a thick spine. (easier said than done) When you get big like Microsoft or Activision you can have "screw you, we're removing the Start menu anyway" attitude.
I always admire the Image Line team. They take the heat in their own forums. You won't get banned for saying their stuff sucks. There is someone always there to communicate and they do it well. 
I've always consider this forum to be a very small part of the music production internet. There's plenty of places to peddle wares without the worry of constant criticism. I know EW gets a lot of criticism here but other forums I frequent it is not the case. I would assume this forum would have the most criticisms. You have people who have spent over 2 decades working with samples. They will have the most critical ears. I doubt anyone who has only used apps like Reason or rely on the orchestra library in Ableton have such great discernment. It was interesting reading the thread about the IK Mirsolav for $49. One stated outdated, one said under valued. One man's trash, another's treasure. 

I've gotten away from saying "over priced" or "expensive". Now it's "I can't afford it".

I don't envy the library developer these days. Nor do I treat them like a charity. It's like trying to reinvent the wheel when it comes to orchestra sounds. Those who develop other libraries rely on those who are ignorant or lazy with synthesis.
It seems a small developer almost has to give their product away or major sale reductions or group buys to get anywhere. It's like when all of those hair metal bands gave away cassettes before they got famous.


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## kitekrazy (Dec 6, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Thu Dec 06 said:


> Everything winds up on Google, including all the positive comments. I can't see this as a serious argument for not expressing opinions in a public forum that could be construed to be negative.



I get overly cautious reading positive reviews from online retailers like Musician's Friend and Guitar Center.

"I use this $40 solid state amp in my studio".

After awhile I think people can weed through the B.S.


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## kitekrazy (Dec 6, 2012)

jamwerks @ Thu Dec 06 said:


> sin(x) @ Fri Dec 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Guy Bacos @ 2012-12-06 said:
> ...



Passion doesn't always pay. Then again Reaper is gaining a larger chunk of the DAW market. I can't remember for sure but the FL Studio demo is downloaded about 80,000 times a day.

I think passion starts with communicating to the end user.


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## Vlzmusic (Dec 6, 2012)

Some interesting posts here. While I am sure its no use being total "prick" in your attitude towards developers, I do agree you have to be with the hand on the pulse. Composer`s work is also being judged with a microscope, so its perfectly fine to point out when your tool gives you unnecessary trouble in shape of defect samples, wrong scripting etc.

On the other hand, I find it peculiar how people tend to measure developer`s qualities by the hours of work, or money invested. Does long practicing hours make one a great musician, if you dislike the final result? Or does so budget, when he shows you what a great instrument he has.

I am sure sampling on today`s commercial level is an art, so result - it what counts in the end. Talented recording, genius ideas, skillful scripting - are essential to come up with something that will move people. Saying: - "Look how much work we put in!" became so trendy in VI market nowadays.

I have no CS libraries, and while I wish them success on social level, I never had a crush. I guess those frustrated users should have weighted their investment more, if they in a position now, that library qualities do not cover on the inevitable bugs and fixes.


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## RiffWraith (Dec 6, 2012)

kitekrazy @ Fri Dec 07 said:


> [I can't remember for sure but the FL Studio demo is downloaded about 80,000 times a day.



By the same person?

That's not possible. That's 29 million people per year. >8o


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## SamGarnerStudios (Dec 6, 2012)

Never bought CineSamples stuff, but seeing this showed a customer service side to the company I don't see everywhere else. I'll definitely look more closely at CineSamples products next purchase.

Did I miss a thread or something that sparked this video, or was it just a "Straw that broke the camels back" kind of thing.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 6, 2012)

Vlzmusic @ Thu Dec 06 said:


> I have no CS libraries, and while I wish them success on social level, I never had a crush. I guess those frustrated users should have weighted their investment more, if they in a position now, that library qualities do not cover on the inevitable bugs and fixes.



I have four and love them all-DOW, HWW, Cineorch and espeically Piano in Blue. I recommend all of them heartily. I haven't bought one or two of the newer libraries that I think show promise-I am waiting/hoping for them to mature a bit through updates.

Overall, though, this isn't a popularity contest for me, it's business. I really appreciate good customer service, but if the product is really really good upfront, that's more important to me. I think respectful criticism is helpful here.


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 6, 2012)

There have been loads of brilliant replies here, too many to name or quote. Piet's made an unconvincing appeal to eschew an Orwellian future of basic civility, but there have been a few other replies that boil down to "you guys just need to grow thicker skin". I'd previously said that this thread wasn't the place for specifics, but I have a sense that some of the critical issues that lead to this video being posted are being muddied and / or forgotten, so I'll try to summarise what I see as the really most point behind this thread, which has barely been addressed.

First of all, for those who don't know, it came out of this thread - http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28622 . For a few pages all is normal, than one poster, Freesamples, posted some strongly worded (I'd say pretty rude) comments saying the new CinePerc library was unusable due to excessive noise reduction. Several of us waded in to question such sweeping statements on a well received library. So far, so normal - the thick skin argument applies.

What happened next was, I believe, the turning point that led to this thread.

Freesamples posted a sample of the library to demonstrate what he was alleging. It was pretty confusing as there was only one sample but a list of problems with multiple mic positions. But to be sure, it sounded terrible - clipped, noisy, all sorts of horrors. I tried to recreate Fresample's sample but couldn't. Nobody could. Cinesamples themselves posted a little video of everyone effectively scratching their heads in CS HQ. After some time, FS then explained that the original posting was JUST the release tail of a sample, boosted by 18db - which is 6x normal use. And that's when it all kicked off.

To me, that's a concrete issue that needs addressing. As I said here in an earlier post, this has happened before with a thread on EW Hollywood Brass's "terrible" legato, with appropriate terrible posted examples. In that case, it transpired after three pages that the posted examples were not from the true legato patch at all, red faces and apologies all round - fine. However here, FS restated his case that there was nothing wrong in his original posting, and restated it louder and firmer.

So the issue that started this thread, as I read it, is this - a fairly rude poster put up a link that purpoted to be a sample from the library in question. In fact it was heavily manipluated to massively boost any microscopic flaws. Now, it's sorta fine to do that I guess, but it MUST be very clearly stated what people are listening to. The very real possibility exists otherwise that people will assume that the posted example is just a basic lift from the library, *use their own ears *and assume the library sounds shit, and write it off. Which is a very serious misrepresentation issue. Of course mistakes happen, but in these cases OPs should be removed or ammended.

These are the really lethal google searches that exist forever - "oh, an example... wow, sounds shit to me, I'll pass".

In the case of that thread, the whole situation wasn't helped by a moderator first posting a loud ad hominem attack against FS, then loudly withdrawing it and doing a 180 degree turn when he himself heard something he didn't like in the library (which turned out to be a low drum resonance, and of course a totally separate and identifiable issue). This also greatly concerned me, and still does.

So while this on the surface is about civility and manners - which I totally agree with - I believe that what happened came out of some specific more serious issues that were the oxygen for this fire. In summary, here are the things I'd like to see come out of this discussion.

1 - audio / video misrepresentation of a library needs to be policed more ruggedly than rude comments, however bruising the latter might be. Mistakes happen, sure, but posts which link to material that is materially misleading should be deleted or corrected.

2 - the moderation fell way below usual standards. I really like the mod in question, I do see this as a glitch (again, we're all human), but I would like to see some evidence from the mods that both the original attack AND the subsequent about face were pretty inappropriate in this case.

3 - people should be encouraged to post criticism if it is constructive and meaningful.

4 - remember everyone is human!


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## woodsdenis (Dec 7, 2012)

@noiseboyuk

A good summary of the thread of which I missed out on TX. I have posted a reply on the main one which states my case regarding this craziness, suffice to say that "free speech" does not give you the right to shout fire in a crowded theatre.

@everyone else

The ludicrous comments about a release sample at crazy volume being noisy needed to be dealt with by the devs. This thread is about civility on this forum which is a divisive issue in itself. I would always check and ask myself and before I post something,

1. Do I actually know what I am talking about.
2. If yes, be polite informative and don't feed a troll.

Just because you read it on the internet, Gearslutz or somewhere else doesn't make it true. Somebody made a comment on the other thread about the devs not knowing about digital recording. It was recorded by Dennis Sands http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0762304/. Get a grip will you

Does that make it perfect, no absolutely not. I would trust his judgement over some of the frankly ludicrous things I have heard on here by certain "gurus", who seem to get a kick out of critisising and belittling others efforts. 

The most talented people I have met are the most humble, and generous with their time. The opposite is also true, the mediocre are insecure and always waiting to tell everyone how their way is superior.

Have check on this thread for example, and see what I mean.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 7, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ 7/12/2012 said:


> ... then loudly withdrawing it and doing a 180 degree turn when he himself heard something he didn't like in the library (which turned out to be a low drum resonance, and of course a totally separate and identifiable issue).



False. Why don't you PM Mike Barry himself and ask him what that hum is? Next time, do proper research before putting me down. Your version of events is only one long-winded member's opinion, and truly not adding anything to this thread. Anyone can simply read the thread in question to follow the developments. You are just dropping in more fuel to embers.


----------



## noiseboyuk (Dec 7, 2012)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Fri Dec 07 said:


> noiseboyuk @ 7/12/2012 said:
> 
> 
> > ... then loudly withdrawing it and doing a 180 degree turn when he himself heard something he didn't like in the library (which turned out to be a low drum resonance, and of course a totally separate and identifiable issue).
> ...



From Sam Estes on the other thread:



> As a side note - we specifically added in the HP filter in the settings page, so if the low frequencies are an issue for use, please use these - BTW the MILITARY SNARE (which is a very, very, deep snare) has a fundamental tone at ~140hz, but has a Low Frequency impact that is about 20-30hz that lasts for about 80-200ms (depending on Velocity), so I did not initially do a Low Pass on these based on that info.



If I'm wrong on the above, which I take to be what I hear in your example, I'll happily correct that part of the post. The rest of your reply makes me want to leave the forum. Thanks.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 7, 2012)

OK, I'm done with this discussion. Lots of interesting things to read and think about, a great percussion library to listen to, watch videos about, buy and use with years of pleasure to be had. I will surely buy more than one part of this collection. =o


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 7, 2012)

After a little thought on Ned's previous post, I'm done with contributing at VI-C. Back to being a lurker - I'll get more work done, anyway!

Thanks to all who have been friendly and supportive over the years.


----------



## George Caplan (Dec 7, 2012)

this is the stupidest crap ive read so far. some guy who i forget the name of but liked his music was thrown out from here because he didnt like video games or video game music or some such i dont recall. and now you guys argue amongst yourselves. thats a joke to anyone with any sense. you guys dont like anything. :lol: :lol:


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## Ed (Dec 7, 2012)

No George he was calling people morons it had nothing to do with his opinions on game music.


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 7, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Fri Dec 07 said:


> After a little thought on Ned's previous post, I'm done with contributing at VI-C. Back to being a lurker - I'll get more work done, anyway!
> 
> Thanks to all who have been friendly and supportive over the years.



C'mon! Don't do that. You're made of much sterner stuff! Roll it off!


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## Resoded (Dec 7, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ 7th December 2012 said:


> After a little thought on Ned's previous post, I'm done with contributing at VI-C. Back to being a lurker - I'll get more work done, anyway!
> 
> Thanks to all who have been friendly and supportive over the years.



Nah man keep writing. I for one appreciate your thoughts on different topics.


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## TheRoot (Dec 7, 2012)

Sorry guys, I don't get the point of this discussion.

I personally do not own any of your products, nor have i listened to any sound example posted in the referred discussion (Freesample) - but one thing is secure:

We are all artists and honest criticism is the rarest thing to find in the world wide web.


No lib out there is perfect so why bother that much? Many libs imply several small (i mean: really small) mistakes but where is the point? If you can do better: do it. Found a company and produce your own stuff and realize, how hard that is. I think a real orchestra will laugh at you when you ask them for "noise reducing artifacts", taking their breath, cuffing, page shiftig, sniffing and the sound of a moving (or jumping) conductor into consideration. (Or the humming of a glenn gould)

Some may rather focus on making music, than spending their time in the world wide web.

Everything has to 150% perfect and has to define new technical standards. That's simply insane.
Perfection is always the highest goal to achieve, but imperfection is ubiquitary.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 7, 2012)

TheRoot @ Fri Dec 07 said:


> We are all artists and honest criticism is the rarest thing to find in the world wide web.



+ 1


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 7, 2012)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Fri Dec 07 said:


> noiseboyuk @ 7/12/2012 said:
> 
> 
> > ... then loudly withdrawing it and doing a 180 degree turn when he himself heard something he didn't like in the library (which turned out to be a low drum resonance, and of course a totally separate and identifiable issue).
> ...






Ned Bouhalassa @ Fri Dec 07 said:


> You are just dropping in more fuel to embers.



In noiseboyuk defence, Ned, when you backed up repeat's post, weren't you adding some fuel as well? Luckily, others had different positions, mainly on the manner of doing things. The post was mocking civility in ridiculous ways at the expense of certain extreme arrogant behaviour with the idea that that's the only way you get developer's attention. I'm just a bit shocked with anyone encouraging this attitude.

Ok, that was my 3rd and final cent.


----------



## quantum7 (Dec 7, 2012)

This forum has become my number one stop to learn about new sample libs. I have also been saddened by some of the words that come out from certain members. In the past I've also said a few stupid things in the heat of the moment myself...... but luckily there is an edit button to erase stupid comments. There is also space in every thread to apologize for stupid comments. I guess this is the downside of not talking face to face and sometimes with total anonymity.....people's inhibitions are thrown out the window.

Love to VI-Control & Love to Cinesamples.


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## Mike Greene (Dec 7, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Fri Dec 07 said:


> After a little thought on Ned's previous post, I'm done with contributing at VI-C. . . .


One guy posts something you don't like, so now you won't post any more on the forum at all?

I've never understood that logic.


----------



## Niah (Dec 7, 2012)

See what happens when you talk about civility and not samples?


----------



## playz123 (Dec 7, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Fri Dec 07 said:


> After a little thought on Ned's previous post, I'm done with contributing at VI-C. Back to being a lurker - I'll get more work done, anyway!
> 
> Thanks to all who have been friendly and supportive over the years.



Guy, not every person is going to agree with _everything_ we write here, nor all the time, and sometimes certain comments do lead to hurt feelings or misunderstandings. But unless you feel other respondents have also contributed to your decision as well, I, for one, hope you will reconsider and continue to post on the forum. Please think about it. Cheers.


----------



## Gusfmm (Dec 7, 2012)

Wow. So much noise for a single user. It's bizarre. 

Why would a single unsubstantiated comment discourage any reasonably educated user from buying a product? I've heard that from a few Dev's, simply ludicrous. We are a specialized community with a good amount of pro and semi-pro users, for my granny's sake.

I believe Ned said on a previous post somewhere: VIControl is a large beta-testing community. Quite certainly. Dev's must be willing to deal with the good and bad, equally. 

I do applaud Sam Estes' professional intervention on both threads; hard facts are usually easy to communicate, and pretty tough to argument against. 

By the same token, I much agree with Piet's bottom line concern. As a user, I dwell on VIControl because, among other things, I like to stay up-to-date on products and technologies and know the apparent ups and downs of each. Which BTW, somebody else's apparent issue is more often than not, not necessarily a concern for me.

Sometimes we tend to get too hung up on the politically correctness of what we say. Often, the written word simply does not do justice to what our brains are trying to communicate. Stripping off the emotional load is always a great approach to Internet communication.

Funny personal story: a few months ago, visited Berlin for the first time. Felt and thought people were rather "rude" in general. My local old school-friend was kind to correct me and explain that it is an integral part of who they are, just very direct and transparent people (where is Alex Pfeiffer? maybe he can confirm). It did make me reflect a bit, and look at some things through different glasses.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 7, 2012)

Niah @ Fri Dec 07 said:


> See what happens when you talk about civility and not samples?



There you go, bringing up civility again :wink:


----------



## NYC Composer (Dec 7, 2012)

Mike Greene @ Fri Dec 07 said:


> noiseboyuk @ Fri Dec 07 said:
> 
> 
> > After a little thought on Ned's previous post, I'm done with contributing at VI-C. . . .
> ...



+1. C'mon, Guy, nut up. There are always slings and arrows. Stay the course! Flouncing out is unnecessary, just ratchet down how personally you take disagreeable points of view, state yours and move on.


----------



## germancomponist (Dec 7, 2012)

Hey, let us have a beer together! o-[][]-o


----------



## playz123 (Dec 7, 2012)

germancomponist @ Fri Dec 07 said:


> Hey, let us have a beer together! o-[][]-o



I'll have mine, please, in one of those huge ornate steins for which Germany is famous.


----------



## Niah (Dec 7, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Fri Dec 07 said:


> Niah @ Fri Dec 07 said:
> 
> 
> > See what happens when you talk about civility and not samples?
> ...



8)


----------



## synergy543 (Dec 7, 2012)

germancomponist @ Fri Dec 07 said:


> Hey, let us have a beer together! o-[][]-o



I dunno Gunther...arranging the seating could be very tricky to avoid further confrontations. :wink:


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 7, 2012)

Gunther, is that the Biergarten in Munich?

If so, I probably sat at that same table!


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## kb123 (Dec 7, 2012)

I deleted my account here at VI-Control some time ago, because I felt this forum was becoming destructive toward developers. However, I can't let a thread like this go by, without making some comment.

When libraries have some issues that need to be addressed, the correct method of resolving those issues is to go through the support channels provided by the relevant companies. I have seen this message repeated over and over again by developers, does anyone here listen?

With the greatest respect to all that have contributed to this thread, no-one but the affected developer knows what effect a negative comment has on the sales of a product. To over simplify matters and say that good comments balance out the negatives is quite frankly incorrect and naive.

So, I say to all those quick to criticize, think on the potential effect of their comments. Does your "gripe" warrant the collapse of a developer and the prospect of no further libraries from them? If the answer is no, then think before you post.


----------



## Leosc (Dec 7, 2012)

Gusfmm @ Fri Dec 07 said:


> Funny personal story: a few months ago, visited Berlin for the first time. Felt and thought people were rather "rude" in general. My local old school-friend was kind to correct me and explain that it is an integral part of who they are, just very direct and transparent people (where is Alex Pfeiffer? maybe he can confirm). It did make me reflect a bit, and look at some things through different glasses.



That, and we generally have a hard time taking things lightly. "Lighthness of being" - hard to find in Germans!


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## synthetic (Dec 7, 2012)

This thread = Q.E.D.


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## germancomponist (Dec 7, 2012)

synergy543 @ Fri Dec 07 said:


> germancomponist @ Fri Dec 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Hey, let us have a beer together! o-[][]-o
> ...



Huch.... . o[])


----------



## NYC Composer (Dec 7, 2012)

kb123 @ Fri Dec 07 said:


> I deleted my account here at VI-Control some time ago, because I felt this forum was becoming destructive toward developers. However, I can't let a thread like this go by, without making some comment.
> 
> When libraries have some issues that need to be addressed, the correct method of resolving those issues is to go through the support channels provided by the relevant companies. I have seen this message repeated over and over again by developers, does anyone here listen?
> 
> ...



I'm sorry, but I think your premise is daft. The posters of this thread have said that they essentially BUILT there business here. Destructive? It's certainly destroyed my limited budget!


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## devastat (Dec 7, 2012)

kb123 @ Sat Dec 08 said:


> When libraries have some issues that need to be addressed, the correct method of resolving those issues is to go through the support channels provided by the relevant companies. I have seen this message repeated over and over again by developers, does anyone here listen?
> 
> With the greatest respect to all that have contributed to this thread, no-one but the affected developer knows what effect a negative comment has on the sales of a product.



I personally disagree with this. The problem with sample libraries is that we don't have a chance to try these products before buying them. We will have to rely on the developers audio and video demonstrations when making our decisions (i know there are some exeptions like Trysound). Therefore it is extremely useful to have this forum where people can openly discuss their experiences with these products. 

If all the criticism and problems would be kept under the hood and sent only to the developers private e-mails, I don't think in the long run it would be beneficial to anybody. The problem here obviously is that people should be able to state their problems and criticism in constructive and respective manner.

I applaud Cinesamples for releasing a free sample of their product. I wish more developers would do the same. 
A happy owner of Cineperc EPIC in here =o


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## Gusfmm (Dec 7, 2012)

kb123 @ Fri Dec 07 said:


> With the greatest respect to all that have contributed to this thread, no-one but the affected developer knows what effect a negative comment has on the sales of a product. To over simplify matters and say that good comments balance out the negatives is quite frankly incorrect and naive.




Are you implying that I as a consumer don't know whether reading a blown-out-of-proportion issue will influence my decision to purchase or not? 

Nobody is trying to oversimplify anything. As I consumer, I want to know. That is the only simple fact here.


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## kb123 (Dec 7, 2012)

Well, the responses to my post highlight why I deleted my account here. We come from different planets I think.


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 7, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Fri Dec 07 said:


> kb123 @ Fri Dec 07 said:
> 
> 
> > I deleted my account here at VI-Control some time ago, because I felt this forum was becoming destructive toward developers. However, I can't let a thread like this go by, without making some comment.
> ...



Larry, is there anything you don't dismiss?


----------



## NYC Composer (Dec 7, 2012)

Guy Bacos @ Fri Dec 07 said:


> NYC Composer @ Fri Dec 07 said:
> 
> 
> > kb123 @ Fri Dec 07 said:
> ...



Yes, Guy. I rarely dismiss good sense . Or good music work! :wink: 

Look at the post made that prompted my response. (by the fellow who deleted his account) and mine. If you disagree with Cinesmples account of how they started their business here,ok- in any case, maybe you could show me the flaws in my premise instead of making a personal and highly general comment.


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## kb123 (Dec 7, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Fri Dec 07 said:


> Guy Bacos @ Fri Dec 07 said:
> 
> 
> > NYC Composer @ Fri Dec 07 said:
> ...




Perhaps you were watching the video with a different shade of spectacles to me. 

Did I not hear stated in the video that in recent times the mood in VI-Control had become significantly more negative toward developers than previously?

So why was my post in anyway off the mark? Clearly people just hear what they want to hear


----------



## choc0thrax (Dec 7, 2012)

I think the solution to all this could lie within self-applying some of these tips: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3C8rt9IkC18


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## jleckie (Dec 7, 2012)

And never EVER shake a crying baby. Brain damage can occur.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 7, 2012)

kb123 @ Fri Dec 07 said:


> NYC Composer @ Fri Dec 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Guy Bacos @ Fri Dec 07 said:
> ...



Yes, i heard what Mike said in the video, KB, but i didnt agree 100%. We are in a circular argument. If you read through the thread and many others, you will find me asking for more politeness and civility, not just to developers but among forum members. However, it is my contention that developers are doing business here, and a fair amount of them have profited by their presence here. Their products are often praised in glowing terms. If all the reviews are all positive, there is no credibility here. What shall we discuss if there are 3 fine woodwind libraries available- just how uniformly excellent they all are, with none being better or worse in any aspect? 

I think you would have a pretty hard time finding an post of mine that rudely trashes a product or developer, but I have no desire to be a member of a forum whose members' opinions of libraries must be relentlessly positive so as not to offend developers or harm their business. I think the members of this place should be free to express opinions, positive or negative, in a polite and respectful manner. I think when opinions are stated in rude and impolite screeds, the members should speak out against such behavior.

I'm sorry that some of the bad behavior here has chased you out. I'm still here, donning my cape, fighting for truth and justice. :wink: Cheers!


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## gsilbers (Dec 7, 2012)

CineSamples @ Wed Dec 05 said:


> I thought a video would be a better method to communicate some thoughts. Please watch.





just imagine with if you would of used the PLAY engine :twisted:  :lol:


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## midi_controller (Dec 7, 2012)

germancomponist @ Fri Dec 07 said:


>



And this, gents, is why I don't drink. :D

Now everyone stop bickering and taking everything so seriously!


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 7, 2012)

> I think the members of this place should be free to express opinions, positive or negative, in a polite and respectful manner. I think when opinions are stated in rude and impolite screeds, the members should speak out against such behavior.



Agreed. But there is a wide difference between constructive criticism and trash talk. And too often, even participants in this thread have trash talked libraries for no good reason sometimes before the library was even released!

Re: customer service. Even Amazon can take 48 hours to reply. Given that this is a global market place, patience is required for getting responses, especially before posting here.

Posting a customer service problem here first before filing a job ticket, is really a kind of virtual blackmail because the dev's rep is being tarnished for no good reason other than impatience. 

Which leads to this point: VI is not a closed shop. Guests, aka "lurkers", come here frequently to see what's going on and to get the "skinny" on a new product. Trashing does impact product sales. Because what happens is that grossly negative comments:

1. shake a potential customer's confidence in the product;
2. shake a potential customer's confidence in the dev producing the product.

Today there is a great mistrust of business. So no matter what the dev says, many times they aren't believed because consumer reviews are the true reviews. 

This tendency is also reflected in what is now becoming a serious belief: that some devs are only producing product for the money and lack passion. That's utterly ridiculous. 

Great chefs have passion to create great meals that people pay for!

The great success lesson has always been to follow your passion and the dollars will follow. Some are trying to change this to follow your passion and give it away for next to nothing, ignoring that it takes money to live to produce art, sample libraries, great stories, books, etc.

Some here, with all due respect, just need to spend a few bucks and get The War of Art which really clarifies the different between the pro and those who love to .... whatever it is.


----------



## noiseboyuk (Dec 7, 2012)

Urgh, sorry to post again with "one last clarification" post. And worse, I fear it'll be another long winded one. Probably longer. I hope for everyone's sake I'll have the strength of character not to make this the first of 500 farewell Status Quo gigs.

First, thanks to the people when sent kind PMs and made comments here - really good of you.

OK, here's why I'm doing what I'm doing (to be fair, it probably wasn't entirely clear before). There's a HUGE difference to me between the comments of a regular punter here and the comments of a mod. Mods are the police of a forum, and if you no longer have faith in the police, it's a pretty serious state of affairs.

Let me take an example of my own (dysfunctional?) view of the world, and how I approach VI-C. Recently Nine Volt Audio posted a moving thread about their own personal experiences of piracy, and how damaging it was. There was a rush of replies of support, which was terrific to see. But in the end, it struck me as a rather sad state of affairs if all we can do as a community was offer a shoulder to cry on. With our combined resources, was there really nothing more we could do?

With a nudge from Larry, I started another thread just to focus on solutions, possibly naive, but something that might potentially materially benefit the guys at NVA and other devs. And that proved to be a great thread, coming out of it the concrete suggestion of using an existing dedicated organisation that seem very efficient at policing all the hacker sites out there. No magic bullet I'm sure, but probably the best option available that might make a real-world difference. That was a good result.

So now a few weeks later we have this situation brought by CineSamples. Again, probably idealistically and naively, I take it on board. There are a handful of developers which I hold in the highest regard - CS, Spitfire, Spectrasonics, Orange Tree, Bela D.... forgive any missed. If they are saying there's a problem with the forum I love, then I'm gonna listen hard. But it's not enough for me to say "ahhhh there there", I want to see some evidence that there might be something put in place that will keep the spirit of the place alive while curbing excesses that threaten its lifebood.

The debate had been really constructive, but in my own myopic view hadn't produced anything that would change the situation that gave rise to the video in the first place. So I took some time out to present a short analysis and a few ideas that might address this. Any time that happens, of course I'd expect some criticism or ridicule - it's only one flawed punter's view of course - but I was hoping that it might get a discussion going beyond "let's all be nice" / "freedom of speech is being destroyed". What - specifically - are the issues that set this in motion?

To me there were specific things that set this chain of events going, that hadn't really even been addressed in the thread. No point in repeating them here, they're all in the post 2nd from bottom of p3. Although I was criticising the specific actions of a mod in it - something you do at your peril - I tried to keep it non-inflamatory and focused on the core issues.

And so it turned out that, in the view of Ned, the same moderator in question that I criticised in the previous post, my post was long winded "not adding anything to the discussion". In that context, I'm not sure what else anyone COULD add to the discussion to move it forward. But what was so lethal is that this was the view of the moderator, the police. The policy was to publicly ridicule and shut it down. I should add that Ned also sent some aggressive PMs.

And moderators do not act alone - they are a team. As has already been said, they are all over this privately. At no time in the original CS thread did any moderator express a view that Ned was out of line, and again in this case none has either. So I faced one pretty unarguable truth - my whole approach, trying to stimulate debate onto a solution for aggression at VI-C - was at a fundamental level unwelcome by the moderators of the forum. And since moderation of the forum is a core element of what we are discussing here, it made it a game-over scenario. There was no possibility of forward movement because the police themselves didn't want any, and in fact publicly ridiculed my attempt at it.

It's a really sad state of affairs. I love VI-C. A place where the devs and rub shoulders with the punters, where Hans drops by to share thoughts and tips. It's obviously doing a lot right. Indeed, it's the very reason why I cared enough to make some time to try to find a solution to a serious problem.

In no way am I setting myself up to be holier than thou, though. Aside from my posts being long winded and desperately tedious, I get it wrong plenty of times. I hope though that I do say sorry and correct myself if I find I have made mistakes.

So thanks again for all those who've been kind here. I still think that the majority of folks are nothing but decent people, and VI-C remains a terrific resource for working composers. But if the police are part of the problem and they are unwilling to engage with that, I'm really best off out of making more contributions, I'd probably just make it worse. I hope in time there is a change of emphasis here, so I don't want to say I'll have this view forever. But I hope I've clarified why I'm doing what I'm doing. I'd expect some more ridicule and kind words in pretty much equal measure, but we'll see.

All the best, long live VI-C!


----------



## Hans Adamson (Dec 7, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Fri Dec 07 said:


> Urgh, sorry to post again with "one last clarification" post. And worse, I fear it'll be another long winded one. Probably longer. I hope for everyone's sake I'll have the strength of character not to make this the first of 500 farewell Status Quo gigs.
> 
> First, thanks to the people when sent kind PMs and made comments here - really good of you.
> 
> ...


I always enjoy and appreciate your posts, as well as your support for us developers. However, I do want to come to the support of Ned, the mod of this thread.

After living through the Northernsounds experience from the very start, and later the birth of VI-control, as an alternative where no opinion would be supressed, I support Ned's and the other moderators' lighthanded approach when it comes to banning and censuring.

If you call someone posting a negative remark a "troll" you have to be prepared for the possibility of him going through the roof. I understand Mike's emotional remark, but just as he is allowed to post his video, understand the moderator's position when not taking sides. 

Thanks,
Hans


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## Markus S (Dec 8, 2012)

We should make an opera out of this and use this thread as liberetto - has some explosive and highly dramatic elements to it.

ACT I : Opens with a heart moving lament by CS about how beautiful things once were, what has become of us and this community and leading into a apologetic and self-punishing reply by the choir.

ACT 2 : The bad guy enters - Piet from "Belgium" sings a dissonant solo aria with evil accusations of censor- and dictatorship. Controversial Mod "Ned" (who is known to have joined forces with the root of all evil - freesamples - after he got corrupted by a manipulated snare sample) comes in to support the hideous.

ACT 3 : Noise Boy from the UK appears on stage in defense of the honor of the forum - he affronts Ned in a deadly duet. 

The Noise Boy is lethally injured by Ned. He pushes a heart moving solo aria, answered by the choir crying and claiming him not to leave this world. 

All is silent despair, incomprehension, death.

...

No! The noise boy is not yet dead, another last heart-moving aria will arise.. (and maybe a third one, we will see - To be continued..).


----------



## Goran (Dec 8, 2012)

Markus S @ Sat Dec 08 said:


> We should make an opera out of this and use this thread as liberetto - has some explosive and highly dramatic elements to it.
> 
> ACT I : Opens with a heart moving lament by CS about how beautiful things once were, what has become of us and this community and leading into a apologetic and self-punishing reply by the choir.
> 
> ...




o/~ ...grand stuff, Markus. Didn't read all the original posts, but your summary of the plot breathes some really hurting Russian tragedy. I he were alive, I would try to make Tchaikovsky interested, could turn out even stronger then Eugene Onegin... 8)


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## leafInTheWind (Dec 8, 2012)

Markus, that was brilliant. Had me in a laughing fit


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## Lex (Dec 8, 2012)

Markus S @ Sat Dec 08 said:


> We should make an opera out of this and use this thread as liberetto - has some explosive and highly dramatic elements to it.
> 
> ACT I : Opens with a heart moving lament by CS about how beautiful things once were, what has become of us and this community and leading into a apologetic and self-punishing reply by the choir.
> 
> ...



o-[][]-o o-[][]-o o-[][]-o


----------



## Martin Brannigan (Dec 8, 2012)

Very good Markus, what a great synopsis !


----------



## George Caplan (Dec 8, 2012)

Ed @ Fri Dec 07 said:


> No George he was calling people morons it had nothing to do with his opinions on game music.



maybe so ed. but he was a lot less boring than you are. :lol: 

as you get older ed you'll probably not be lucky enough to work out which people are or not morons. and why throw out an obviously good musician simply because some here have low self esteem issues? it would have blown over. just like the rubbish on this thread will. :wink:


----------



## mark812 (Dec 8, 2012)

Markus S @ Sat Dec 08 said:


> We should make an opera out of this and use this thread as liberetto - has some explosive and highly dramatic elements to it.
> 
> ACT I : Opens with a heart moving lament by CS about how beautiful things once were, what has become of us and this community and leading into a apologetic and self-punishing reply by the choir.
> 
> ...



Haha! :lol:


----------



## woodsdenis (Dec 8, 2012)

Markus S @ Sat Dec 08 said:


> We should make an opera out of this and use this thread as liberetto - has some explosive and highly dramatic elements to it.
> 
> ACT I : Opens with a heart moving lament by CS about how beautiful things once were, what has become of us and this community and leading into a apologetic and self-punishing reply by the choir.
> 
> ...



Very funny, please let that be the end of this craziness please.


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 8, 2012)

Markus S @ Sat Dec 08 said:


> We should make an opera out of this and use this thread as liberetto - has some explosive and highly dramatic elements to it.
> 
> ACT I : Opens with a heart moving lament by CS about how beautiful things once were, what has become of us and this community and leading into a apologetic and self-punishing reply by the choir.
> 
> ...



Love this kind of humor!


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## Alex Cuervo (Dec 8, 2012)

Markus won the thread - you can go ahead and lock it now.


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## re-peat (Dec 8, 2012)

Markus S @ Sat Dec 08 said:


> We should make an opera out of this (...)


You forgot to mention the predictable closing act, Marcus from ‘Paris’. The one where you pathetic lot show up and make cheap fun of the whole thing: V.I. (Vultures Incorporated, or Village Idiots, whichever you prefer) enter the scene, turn everything into a farce for your own superficial, brain-dead entertainment, feed on the distress of those to whom all of this actually matters, and then dig yourselves back into the dark safety of the woodwork to await the next installment of an unfortunate crisis such as this, until it's time to do it all over again. It doesn’t matter who suffers along the way, it doesn’t matter who gets mocked, ridiculed or hurt, … no, as long as you guys can have your few seconds of silly fun, all is fine and dandy. Isn’t it? 

‘Despicable’ is a word that comes to mind.

Me, I don’t agree with Noiseboy — well, we sometimes did agree, but certainly not on this occasion. And I doubt if Ned and I will ever start exchanging warm, well-wishing Christmas cards. And yes, I have a serious dislike for Mike B. from CineSamples. All true. But even so, I do recognize and appreciate that all these people stand for something, and that there is a sincere, vibrant and dedicated heart beating in everything they do or say. Even if theirs is not my kinda fire, I very much admire and respect that, at least, it burns.

Which is a lot more than can be said of you people, the herd of spineless bystanders and disaster tourists, who are very good at faking indignation at all the most opportunistic and theatrical moments, and are always ready for the moment when the worst of the storm has passed, to mount your repulsive “Hahaha! What fun! Let’s all have a beer.”-routine. 

I find it very sad that Noiseboy felt so bad about the entire thing that he decided to call it quits. The forum looses a valuable and distinguished member. One showing passion, care, profound emotional investment and honest commitment. And those are among the things which this place needs most. Unlike the childish, meaningless jollity which you lot have to offer.

_


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## Alex Cuervo (Dec 8, 2012)

re-peat @ Sat Dec 08 said:


> Markus S @ Sat Dec 08 said:
> 
> 
> > We should make an opera out of this (...)
> ...



Really? "Drama Queen" comes to mine.

Honestly re-peat - your posts have been some of the most insightful to me in the year and a half that I lurked here before posting. You're opinionated and articulate and not afraid to ruffle feathers and I respect and admire that. But, this is is just, well - can you blame people for having a laugh at what this has deteriorated into?


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## synergy543 (Dec 8, 2012)

re-peat @ Sat Dec 08 said:


> Markus S @ Sat Dec 08 said:
> 
> 
> > We should make an opera out of this (...)
> ...



Re-peat, people have different ways of responding and finding closure to incidents. Lustig und Traurig you know? To assume that others don't care simply because they respond differently isn't very fair. There is no need to denigrate others who simply choose to respond differently than you. The fact that we're all different is what makes it a wonderful forum.


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 8, 2012)

synergy543 @ Sat Dec 08 said:


> Re-peat, people have different ways of responding and finding closure to incidents. Lustig und Traurig you know? To assume that others don't care simply because they respond differently isn't very fair. There is no need to denigrate others who simply choose to respond differently than you. The fact that we're all different is what makes it a wonderful forum.



If anythings, it lightens the situation.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 8, 2012)

I don't have Piet's gift of throwing lightning bolts from mountaintops, but I do agree with him. Guy's a good egg, his distress is real, and the kooky Disney ending you kludged onto this discussion that seems to relieve everyone is not satisfying to me at all. Enjoy your beers and mocking.


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## kitekrazy (Dec 8, 2012)

Markus S @ Sat Dec 08 said:


> We should make an opera out of this and use this thread as liberetto - has some explosive and highly dramatic elements to it.
> 
> ACT I : Opens with a heart moving lament by CS about how beautiful things once were, what has become of us and this community and leading into a apologetic and self-punishing reply by the choir.
> 
> ...



LOL! Community project and no commercial samples allowed.


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## Gusfmm (Dec 8, 2012)

See, I actually happen to sympathize quite a bit with what Piet is saying. And I'd definitely have a different style to communicate, but I got to tell you, the fundamentals of what is in question are very relevant and key to this whole thread.

I think that since the door has opened, let's have a good shot at it, NOW. Farewell party spoiled and everything, sorry.

Long rhetoric aside, let me just say the moment WE at VIControl start exhibiting that feeling of correctness and restrain in what we discuss and communicate, that precise moment will mark the end of my huge appreciation for the community. This will totally compromise its magic and differentiation from anywhere else. 

And if the question is civility of communication, yes, that should never be compromised. But civility has nothing to do with clearness and transparency.

And you're absolutely right Synergy, we are all very different. And I personally wish we could all appreciate the fact that such diversity enhances the value of the relationship. 

Guy R- your presence has always contributed to that diversity, it'd be a real shame to lose you. We need to foster open and transparent communication, even if at times it could be perceived by some as negative for their particular interests. In the end, it is absolutely NOT.


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 8, 2012)

Markus S @ Sat Dec 08 said:


> We should make an opera out of this and use this thread as liberetto - has some explosive and highly dramatic elements to it.
> 
> ACT I : Opens with a heart moving lament by CS about how beautiful things once were, what has become of us and this community and leading into a apologetic and self-punishing reply by the choir.
> 
> ...



A new Ring cycle - totally Wagnerian!


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## Mike Greene (Dec 8, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Fri Dec 07 said:


> There's a HUGE difference to me between the comments of a regular punter here and the comments of a mod. Mods are the police of a forum, and if you no longer have faith in the police, it's a pretty serious state of affairs.


Aha! There's your error right there. You need to not take the postings of a moderator any more seriously than you would the postings of anyone else. Unless a mod is doin' official moderatin' bidness, then we're just another bozo here and you can disagree with our opinions as loudly and often as you want. Our words or opinions carry no more weight than yours.

I suppose that could be a little murky in a thread about etiquette, but you didn't violate any forum rules, so you can say whatever you want, as long as you want, whether Ned or anyone else likes it or not. It's *our* forum, and "our" includes you.



noiseboyuk @ Fri Dec 07 said:


> As has already been said, they are all over this privately.


Not really. The original thread did get brought up, but Freesamples didn't violate any forum rules, so that was kinda the end of that. (Although things degenerated into a discussion between Nick and me about whether his 75 year old sister in law is hot or not. Seriously, isn't that proof enough that you shouldn't expect exemplary behavior from mods???) The entire discussion, including my and Nick's childishness, lasted less than 24 hours. Wednesday evening to Thursday afternoon. That's it. There have been no discussions by mods on this or any other topic since then.

The mods are a bunch of lazy mofos and do *not* go through threads looking for ways to get involved. It's the beauty of this forum that it self polices with hardly any need for moderator intervention. If someone says something idiotic, then there are plenty of very articulate members here who will call that person to task on it.



noiseboyuk @ Fri Dec 07 said:


> So I faced one pretty unarguable truth - my whole approach, trying to stimulate debate onto a solution for aggression at VI-C - was at a fundamental level unwelcome by the moderators of the forum.


That is absolutely, completely 100% incorrect. I don't think your name has *ever* been mentioned in any mod discussions. (Don't feel neglected, discussions of _any_ kind are very rare. Maybe once a month. That whole "self-policing" thing really works!) I cannot imagine any moderator taking issue with anything you said in this (or any other) thread, or taking issue if you said even more. I think most of us would be very uncomfortable with that sort of nitpicking of any respected veteran member's postings. The role of moderators is to handle the obvious stuff, not to somehow be more powerful than other members. Again, that would feel icky and be contrary to the spirit of this forum. We're all brothers (and sisters) here.

Unless you call Ned a %&*@$# or violate some other forum rule, then he's on his own in any debates he might have with you. Even if they concern etiquette or whether he thinks you have nothing relevant left to say. Those are his opinions, not forum rules. (I'm sure Ned would be the first to agree with that.)

If a moderator is having an argument with anyone else on the forum, that's his problem, not the other moderators' problem. You can have a heated argument with Ned, or with me, or with Batzdorf, or whoever you want. You have my word that we will never take another moderator's side just because he's a moderator. (Unless he's acting officially as a moderator, of course, but he would need to be clear about that.) Otherwise it would be bullying and Frederick would kick a moderator out before he'd allow that.


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## jleckie (Dec 8, 2012)

It is ashame my popcorn machine decided to go on the fritz today....


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## JacquesMathias (Dec 9, 2012)

synthetic @ Thu Dec 06 said:


> I agree with everything Mike said. The negative tone at VI is the reason I don't post very often anymore. I hope that this can be fixed.



Me too. +1.


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## Dominik Raab (Dec 9, 2012)

I don't think the general tone of VI-C has changed. I believe the reason why Cinesamples (you guys have my greatest respect; I love what you're doing) notice increasing hostility towards them is much simpler than a negative shift of the whole forum.
Whenever someone new turns up with great ideas, people love them. The more professional and "worldwide" people get, the less do people like them. It's the "companies are evil" thing inspired by "banks are evil" and "global players treat both their customers and their employees very badly".
Once a new company gets succesful, people stop seeing people with passion, they see one homogenic complex: THE COMPANY. That's when they stop taking into account that constructive criticism is more valuable than "Fix this, I paid good money, assholes!". That's when they don't care anymore whether they're being disrespectful, rude, or, frankly, a pain in the ass.
I, too, find this very disturbing and I've never understood that. I hope I'm wrong, but as of now I'm pretty convinced that every company will sooner or later suffer from this effect. EastWest has been target of "your engine sucks, your products aren't done, I hate you guys" attacks for a long time. Cinesamples is just experiencing the transition from "Guys, we love you" towards "Company, we demand better products and less whining". If I'm right (and God ... I hope I'm not), Embertone, the newest addition to professional sampling, will experience this within a few months or years from now. They're starting now where you started six years ago. If this happens again, it will be the first time I'm sad for the sole reason that I was right.

I love to be right - I'm a pain in the ass, mind you - ... but not this time.

Mike P., Mike B., team: Thanks for your work. There will always be those who love what you're doing, but also those who don't know how to draw your attention to existing issues without being disrespectful. I hope you can deal with both. All the best!


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## KMuzzey (Dec 9, 2012)

"Politeness costs nothing." - my mom, when I was 6


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 9, 2012)

But Dominik, how do you explain the continued love and respect for Spectrasonics, Project SAM, VSL, and Cinesamples? I think what the falling out of love with EW had as much to do with how some people were treated on their forum, big pricing changes that made early buyers upset, and legitimate issues with the Play engine.


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## Dominik Raab (Dec 9, 2012)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sun 09 Dec said:


> But Dominik, how do you explain the continued love and respect for Spectrasonics, Project SAM, VSL, and Cinesamples? I think what the falling out of love with EW had as much to do with how some people were treated on their forum, big pricing changes that made early buyers upset, and legitimate issues with the Play engine.



Thanks for your reply. I honestly don't know why there are exceptions to the rule (maybe I'm only imagining the rule, I never said that's impossible). I'm rather sure that it doesn't have anything to do with quality, though. I'm also a bit confused by your post: "Continued love and respect for [...] and Cinesamples?" - I was (and still am) under the impression that this topic deals with the fact that the love and respect for Cinesamples is declining.
What I posted earlier was not intended to describe the behaviour of the whole forum or the general public, maybe I should clarify that. It's why (in my opinion) some people - the people we are talking about, those responsible for the tone Mike mentioned in his video - stop supporting a company once it's very successful.
The members of VI-Control still provide constructive, useful feedback for Cinesamples. It's the growing number of impolite, unfriendly posts we are talking about. At least I think that's what we're talking about.  My post was an attempt to draw you attention towards what I think is a fact: New companies receive a wonderful welcome around here, but this enthusiasm declines with time. Offending posts are the result of this.

Everything I write around here is always subject to discussion. I think this is the difference between constructive discussions / feedback and the impoliteness I mentioned before. There is, however, one thing I am not willing to discuss as I won't change my mind on this *ever*: Discovering bugs and experiencing disappointment with certain features of a product are not valid reasons for bad language or hurtful comments. There is a major difference between "Hey Mike, I realized some of the samples in Piano in Blue are distorted. Are you working on an update?" and "How stupid do you have to be not to notice this? I paid money for this shit. Fix it or get lost, bastards." - and I'd rather the members of this forum tried the first approach.
Not everyone is like this, of course, and it is not my intention to attack anyone. Both quotes illustrating what I mean by "bad tone" are completely made up; Piano in Blue is only an example.


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## Craig Sharmat (Dec 9, 2012)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sun Dec 09 said:


> But Dominik, how do you explain the continued love and respect for Spectrasonics, Project SAM, VSL, and Cinesamples? I think what the falling out of love with EW had as much to do with how some people were treated on their forum, big pricing changes that made early buyers upset, and legitimate issues with the Play engine.



Ned, 

Erik has had his share of issues here I am sure you remember (he generally has stayed above the fray). People have complained about VSL but VSL figured out a way to handle complaints and not offend people. Maarten seemed to figure that out from the get go.

VI-control is not good or bad, it is just a place with individuals who create a collective whole. The main job of mods is to let things just be unless something is threatening or destructive in nature (someones ego needing to run a thread).


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## james7275 (Dec 9, 2012)

Dominik Raab @ Sun Dec 09 said:


> I don't think the general tone of VI-C has changed. I believe the reason why Cinesamples (you guys have my greatest respect; I love what you're doing) notice increasing hostility towards them is much simpler than a negative shift of the whole forum.
> Whenever someone new turns up with great ideas, people love them. The more professional and "worldwide" people get, the less do people like them. It's the "companies are evil" thing inspired by "banks are evil" and "global players treat both their customers and their employees very badly".
> Once a new company gets succesful, people stop seeing people with passion, they see one homogenic complex: THE COMPANY. That's when they stop taking into account that constructive criticism is more valuable than "Fix this, I paid good money, assholes!". That's when they don't care anymore whether they're being disrespectful, rude, or, frankly, a pain in the ass.
> I, too, find this very disturbing and I've never understood that. I hope I'm wrong, but as of now I'm pretty convinced that every company will sooner or later suffer from this effect. EastWest has been target of "your engine sucks, your products aren't done, I hate you guys" attacks for a long time. Cinesamples is just experiencing the transition from "Guys, we love you" towards "Company, we demand better products and less whining". If I'm right (and God ... I hope I'm not), Embertone, the newest addition to professional sampling, will experience this within a few months or years from now. They're starting now where you started six years ago. If this happens again, it will be the first time I'm sad for the sole reason that I was right.
> ...




While I agree that there could be some of that. I think it's only natural that more criticism is to follow when a company takes on bigger projects and charges more money. i know I'm not going to really complain about something that costs $30 bucks as opposed to something costing $400.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 9, 2012)

Craig, I would think you meant Eric, not Erik - right? :wink: 

And Dominik, I have to respectfully disagree with you about Cinesamples. A couple of blows here and there do not, IMO, impact the mountain of (well-deserved) love and respect there is here for the dynamic (pun intended) duo.


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## Dominik Raab (Dec 9, 2012)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sun 09 Dec said:


> And Dominik, I have to respectfully disagree with you about Cinesamples. A couple of blows here and there do not, IMO, impact the mountain of (well-deserved) love and respect there is here for the dynamic (pun intended) duo.



Thank you for disagreeing respectfully as opposed to disrespectively. That would have killed me. :D
There is, of course, a reason for Mike's message. Unless this is a marketing gag, which I highly doubt (!!!), I think they at least experience a decline in respect *from their point of view*. I respect their point of view (not saying you don't!). Let's see what happens. I sincerely hope the mountain of well-deserved love and respect (thank you very much, couldn't have said it better) keeps growing. Each and every hard-working producer deserve one.


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## Dan Mott (Dec 9, 2012)

This thread needs a theme song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4O_V_lZU04


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