# This is why you won't be successful!



## Waywyn (Feb 24, 2014)

Hey guys,

I decided to pull out this topic and talk about it, because it is really important to me!
To *most* of all the new aspiring composers out there, trying to get your foot into the door of the music business (I will just say YOU from now on!). This post perfectly describes and is exactly the reason - at least on the music level - why you probably won't have success at all!

Within the last years I received so many messages on no matter which social network, asking me if I could criticise a piece of music or give some hints on production. I also was reading so many posts on whatever social network about you presenting your new tracks to the public and it all came down to almost ALWAYS the same problem:

You actually do absolutely not care what you do nor do you take the time and really get into what you are using and working with!

I received compositions with copied and pasted parts from the beginning until the end. I listened to track which do not even utilize velocity or the modwheel dynamics. Not to speak of the compositions I received which were excused with "but it is still work in progress" or (after I criticised it) "Yeh, I did in three hours because I was late to the party". Tracks which were compressed to hell or limited to death ... and so on!


Be aware I am NOT talking about people using loops etc. ... there is really nice stuff out there, which has been done with loops, being perfectly incorporated. I am also not talking about newbies, amateurs and people who just got into the world of sequencers and libraries!

I am only talking about people who actually do not care about the process of working with libs and being creative at all, but nevertheless trying to apply for a job or at least contacting others to get into the business.

You just want to be successful and climbing the ladder as fast as possible. It almost seems as you actually give a damn about what you compose(d). If I open a lib the first thing after trying different velocities is touching the modwheel and see if anything is happening. Then I at least read about the controller basics which you can ALWAYS find in the manual or the company's tutorial video! No one can tell me that they just installed a new lib and start composing by not taking care of what you really can do with it! Be aware, I absolutely know that I am not perfect, but hand to the heart: It doesn't take much intelligence or logic to at least know about velocity!

Another point which is really lame is, that you simply go out on social networks and literally attack people with your half baked shit! Seriously, you send mass private messages, you tag hundreds of (sometimes famous) people in your posts to only grab for attention. This simply looks desperate! You feel like drowning in the mass of composers, but you think you can get attention by using a hammer hitting everyones head instead of approaching someone in the nice way, making eye contact and shake their hands! Shouldn't it be enough already that someone accepted your friend request?

Did you ever think about, that if you tag someone from a competing company, this company could kick out the composer asking itself, why their guy suddenly got anything to do with the competition? Uhmmm, what?!? You never thought about that, right? 

So here we are, you should be aware that you probably won't be successful at all, because you actually give a f*ck, you do not care, you compose for the sake of sharing, you are lazy and just want to climb the ladder as quick as possible and no matter the cost.

Do YOURSELF a favor, create great music, invest some sweat and sometimes blood and tears, try to make it awesome, let it rest for a few days and relisten to it by trying to improve stuff but be aware that you are not analyze it to death! Don't excuse yourself when you share your music and don't try to bring up an argument, once you received constructive or even negative reviews! Always remember that someone took the time to listen to your music and give you a reply. This should be more or less honored, no?

Also be aware that many "pros" are able to hear (while listening to a track of yours) that you just did something in one or two hours! Don't try to be that attention whore!

I am perfectly aware that I sounded very negative and ranting as it can probably get on a post, but this was on purpose, but still ... I tried to be as objective as possible. However, I see no reason to be nice and kind, because it should be a waking call to you. You should realize that in every bizz, no matter what you want to become, it needs hard work to reach "that" level of success. Use this post of mine as your inner voice and try to rock and be awesome. We all fail, I still fail today and I certainly know what I can, but also can NOT do! It is all a matter of loving and caring what you do and create!


... and as one last favor, please stop asking me to which email address or contact you can send your tracks to, because you want to start working for ______________ (put in the name of company you've seen I work(ed) for)


Now go on and be better than this!!


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## Tatu (Feb 24, 2014)

I want to shake your hand, Sir.


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## TGV (Feb 24, 2014)

I've got absolutely no stake in this game, but I think you vented your frustration most eloquently and educationally (apart from the last f*ck, which is stylistically a bit weak, but that's easily forgiven).


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Feb 24, 2014)

I can appreciate the sentiment alas I have no idea who these people are you speak of. Is this happening on this forum?


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## Waywyn (Feb 24, 2014)

Thank you guys! (btw I changed the last one. Seems more appropriate to me too, so thanks TGV )

Simon, actually that was the reason why I wanted to get this out. It is not just happening on this forum, but everywhere! Doesn't matter if it is Facebook, G+, Soundcloud, Twitter, Email or whatever is out there to reach people.

I wrote this down because I simply don't understand it. I mean, you don't need to be a highly complex developed alien mixture of the most intelligent beings across the universe to understand that there is velocity/dynamics and some other controllers the developers took advantage of.
We all make mistakes, we all have a learning curve, some people grab stuff faster, some slower and this is never the problem. I am just asking myself why there are tracks out there which consist of simply copy and pasting parts and then muting some in the middle part and others with literally all velocities up to 127, no matter if the part is soft or loud. If you are able to switch on a computer, boot a sequencer and manage to load samples into Kontakt and play/record them you simply ARE intelligent enough to understand the process  It all comes down to being lazy, hurry hurry hurry because everything else is more important, but the urgent wish to share it in order to be curious how all those (even famous) guys find your track "absolutely gorgeous, amazing and how talented you are" and that none of your friends understood "why _______ (put in your famous composer of choice) didn't knock on your door yet"


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Feb 24, 2014)

Waywyn @ Tue 25 Feb said:


> Thank you guys! (btw I changed the last one. Seems more appropriate to me too, so thanks TGV )
> 
> Simon, actually that was the reason why I wanted to get this out. It is not just happening on this forum, but everywhere! Doesn't matter if it is Facebook, G+, Soundcloud, Twitter, Email or whatever is out there to reach people.
> 
> ...



Are you certain you are not misinterpreting lack of skills/knowledge for laziness?


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## handz (Feb 24, 2014)

Maybe you could count to 10 before posting this


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## rayinstirling (Feb 24, 2014)

Alex,
I fear your post will fall on deaf ears (so to speak) and yes, neither am I referring to the membership here anymore than everywhere else on the net.

Ray


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## JJP (Feb 24, 2014)

Just as a counterpoint (I'm not dismissing Waywyn's experience in any way), I don't get many people contacting me and sending tracks. This could be because I keep a somewhat low profile on the few forums I visit, and I don't have a website.

The people who have contacted me generally have been thoughtful, courteous, and quite skilled. Often they have very specific musical questions of style, a particular business situation, or just career advice. Perhaps that's because it's not as easy to find me. It could be that the one or two more clicks it takes to send me a message deters the laziest people, but I honestly don't know. It's not like I'm hiding from anyone.

Then again, it could be that many people don't understand what I do or mistakenly think that I only work with live instruments on huge projects. Perhaps because I don't have a website they just think I'm nobody. I don't have a problem with that.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Feb 24, 2014)

JJP @ Tue 25 Feb said:


> Just as a counterpoint (I'm not dismissing Waywyn's experience in any way), I don't get many people contacting me and sending tracks. This could be because I keep a somewhat low profile on the few forums I visit, and I don't have a website.
> 
> The people who have contacted me generally have been thoughtful, courteous, and quite skilled. Often they have very specific musical questions of style, a particular business situation, or just career advice. Perhaps that's because it's not as easy to find me. It could be that the one or two more clicks it takes to send me a message deters the laziest people, but I honestly don't know. It's not like I'm hiding from anyone.
> 
> Then again, it could be that many people don't understand what I do or mistakenly think that I only work with live instruments on huge projects. Perhaps because I don't have a website they just think I'm nobody. I don't have a problem with that.



Well if it helps in your quest for understanding, all I know about you is that you most definitely *do not* have a website o-[][]-o


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## Markus S (Feb 24, 2014)

Having a bad day, Alex? 

I understand I can get annoying in some situations, I get quite a few emails myself, it's mainly about "how do I get started in the game industry as composer" or "do you look for an assistant". With links to works.

I ALWAYS reply - I always reply - for the simple fact that when I am contacting people myself on the web - and I admit doing this - it always irritates me if someone does not reply, which happens 99,9 % of the cases.  OK, it's the Internet area, everyone is SPAMing everyone, so why not just put the email in the trash can and move on, and we might forget that there is actually a real human being somewhere on the world.

So when I can I try to give useful honest advice, and I try maybe to get someone in contact with someone else - in example a composer I know who is looking for an assitant. I might even reply, well, I don't know, I cannot help you.


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## Astronaut FX (Feb 24, 2014)

As a self-proclaimed novice/hobbyist who has no delusions about ever "making it" as a composer, I'm not sure I fall into the group to whom you are addressing, but nonetheless, I can't help feeling pissed off by your approach to the subject.

Just because someone is a novice/amatuer/beginner/etc and is not producing polished pieces does not equate to their not caring. Not everyone was spit from their mother's womb with the experience level that assume you must possess. The rest of us must learn from a certain point. And while there does exist a huge amount of information (on the internet and otherwise) as to how to improve as a composer, to some extent, those of us who are just beginning are cursed by the concept of "not knowing what we don't know." So trial and error is often the most immediate and obvious route. And asking for feedback is often part of that process.

Personally, I have not subjected the world to much in the way of compositions. I have posted one completed piece to Soundcloud, have created a thread here linking to it (which prior to this thread, thought was acceptable), and sent a single tweet regarding the piece.

I must now apologize to the 152 individuals whose ears I assaulted with such an atrocity that was born of my uncaring, cavalier approach to, dare I categorize it as composition. I shall crawl back into my hole and record myself repeating the phrase "you do not care...you are not a composer" one million times (with no copy/pasting).


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## germancomponist (Feb 24, 2014)

JJP @ Mon Feb 24 said:


> Perhaps because I don't have a website they just think I'm nobody. I don't have a problem with that.



Agreed 100%! 

I am also very happy without one.


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## JJP (Feb 24, 2014)

SimonCharlesHanna @ Mon Feb 24 said:


> Well if it helps in your quest for understanding, all I know about you is that you most definitely *do not* have a website o-[][]-o



:D That's exactly my point. If you wanted to know more about me (not saying that you do), you could click on my profile and do an internet search for my name. My IMDB page would probably be the first result.

I do understand that this is considered far too much to ask of most people in the current internet culture. Any PR person would be tearing their hair out. But as I said, I don't have a huge problem with that.

My lack of self-promotion may change someday, and like Waywyn I may have to deal with less thoughtful questions from beginners at that point.


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## Waywyn (Feb 24, 2014)

Guys, I have to set something right.
It is not because I am having a bad day, nor do I need to vent (just for the sake of venting) as I am perfectly fine with either answering emails or simply ignoring them ... but all in all I find it alarming, seriously I do, that so many apsiring composers tend to promote themselves more than actually REALLY DOING what they promote 

Since years I replied to every email, no matter how bad or low enthusiastic it was written. I just wanted to help and I still want to. Of course I get message from people asking myself: What do they want from me? They would "compose me to death if there would be a competition :D ... however, to at least 90% it always ends the same. People seem to not care about what they produce, what they operate and what the gear they own is possible of.

See it in the sense of seeing thousands of people eating unhealthy and don't even care where their meat and veggies coming from and then there is this one guy who experiences a quite alarming number and decides to write about it. It is not about having a bad day and for the sake of venting. It is actually because the composers scene IS actually important to me. Many complain about loops or the lack of intellect in todays compositions, but since this is all a matter of taste I am seriously talking craftmanship. If you don't like one note trailer music - fine! If you don't like pop - all good! If you think movie composer X or Y sucks - the world still turns ... but what I am talking about is actually scary, since many people call themselves highly respected and well known composers/professionals, but in the sense of craftmanship, the music is far from being well done!

Disregarding if I am hitting def ears, if there is just one guy today who was reading this, rethinking his way of approaching is music, then my work was done! ...


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## davidm (Feb 24, 2014)

Alex,

I wonder if this sort of attitude is counterproductive in an industry where success is based almost entirely on networking and connections. There are a great many "amateurs" whose work I've heard on soundcloud that are nobodies because they do not have the right connections. How is one to make a new professional connection if all working composers are too elite to deal with such drivel? 

Perhaps HZ doesn't know what it takes to "make it" in the music industry since he just invited 6,000 lazy idiots to post there compositions for him to listen to in an attempt to get noticed (using prerecorded stem files no less!). I also think that maybe the point of this forum is the sharing and sharpening of skills and experiences across all levels of expertise. 

- David


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## EastWest Lurker (Feb 24, 2014)

Tone Deaf @ Mon Feb 24 said:


> As a self-proclaimed novice/hobbyist who has no delusions about ever "making it" as a composer, I'm not sure I fall into the group to whom you are addressing, but nonetheless, I can't help feeling pissed off by your approach to the subject.
> 
> Just because someone is a novice/amatuer/beginner/etc and is not producing polished pieces does not equate to their not caring. Not everyone was spit from their mother's womb with the experience level that assume you must possess. The rest of us must learn from a certain point. And while there does exist a huge amount of information (on the internet and otherwise) as to how to improve as a composer, to some extent, those of us who are just beginning are cursed by the concept of "not knowing what we don't know." So trial and error is often the most immediate and obvious route. And asking for feedback is often part of that process.
> 
> ...



The important phrase in his post is,""Yeh, I did in three hours and..... " IMHO.

That is indeed proof of not caring enough.


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## Jonathan Howe (Feb 24, 2014)

In Alexs defense: Quite some time ago I sent him an E-mail too (without linking any of my compositions though), asking some questions about the industry and possible education paths. I've sent similar mails to a few composers (after waiting for an answer from each for a while and not receiving one) and Alex was the first and only one to answer with a very thought- and helpful mail.

I don't know what kind of pieces are sent to him but he might have reasons to call them lazy, especially because he already has a bunch of tutorials up on youtube explaining the techniques that would improve these pieces.

On the other hand vi-control is probably not the right audience to rant about this, I would guess most people here have quiet a good understanding of what a modwheel does.


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## EastWest Lurker (Feb 24, 2014)

TodayIWill @ Mon Feb 24 said:


> , I would guess most people here have quiet a good understanding of what a modwheel does.



Indeed, Too bad they don't have a good understanding of what a real instrument does 

Just teasing, guys.


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## davidm (Feb 24, 2014)

> Indeed, Too bad they don't have a good understanding of what a real instrument does Smile



LOL Jay...very witty indeed!


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## TGV (Feb 24, 2014)

Tone Deaf @ Mon Feb 24 said:


> I must now apologize to the 152 individuals whose ears I assaulted with such an atrocity that was born of my uncaring, cavalier approach to, dare I categorize it as composition. I shall crawl back into my hole and record myself repeating the phrase "you do not care...you are not a composer" one million times (with no copy/pasting).


I don't think that he meant that at all. It's more directed to the people who think they deserve a job creating the main track for the next Call of Duty because they've created a very loud 4 bar repeating track. People that "... just want to be successful and climbing the ladder as fast as possible" is the central tenet, I think.


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## AC986 (Feb 24, 2014)

TGV @ Mon Feb 24 said:


> I've got absolutely no stake in this game, but I think you vented your frustration most eloquently and educationally (apart from the last f*ck, which is stylistically a bit weak, but that's easily forgiven).



Definitely! You shouldn't swear Alex. You never catch me doing that!


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## KingIdiot (Feb 24, 2014)

Not enough mindcraft downtime


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## IFM (Feb 24, 2014)

germancomponist @ Mon Feb 24 said:


> JJP @ Mon Feb 24 said:
> 
> 
> > Perhaps because I don't have a website they just think I'm nobody. I don't have a problem with that.
> ...



I have one because I also release solo projects...maintaining it can be tedious so I can understand not wanting one. 

Chris


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## Waywyn (Feb 24, 2014)

Tone Deaf @ Mon Feb 24 said:


> As a self-proclaimed novice/hobbyist who has no delusions about ever "making it" as a composer, I'm not sure I fall into the group to whom you are addressing, but nonetheless, I can't help feeling pissed off by your approach to the subject.
> 
> Just because someone is a novice/amatuer/beginner/etc and is not producing polished pieces does not equate to their not caring. Not everyone was spit from their mother's womb with the experience level that assume you must possess. The rest of us must learn from a certain point. And while there does exist a huge amount of information (on the internet and otherwise) as to how to improve as a composer, to some extent, those of us who are just beginning are cursed by the concept of "not knowing what we don't know." So trial and error is often the most immediate and obvious route. And asking for feedback is often part of that process.
> 
> ...



Wanted to reply to your post in specific and ask you the following questions.

1. if you compose a piece of music and you hit the keyboard or even put in notes per mouse. Don't you hear some are getting louder while the lower ones getting lower. Wouldn't this immeditately put to your mind that you can produce music with lower and louder notes, therefore create dynamics in e.g. staccato driven pieces? Then why would people send out music with all their dynamics up to 127???

2. If you buy a product for around 300 bucks, don't you love what you just did? Aren't you all eager to try it out and literally suck in every little feature the lib can do? When you buy a car? Don't you get kind of excited about it. Check it from every angle, read stuff about it, test out things, study all the knobs and options .... or do you just sit in there, drive a few meters, get out and say: Yeh, cool car! 

3. If you send a track to someone, why would you mention that you just had three hours or you were already late for basketball training or the tonights party? Seriously, I received that. This is almost an insult! Best thing is, this kind of excuse came AFTER I already took the time to criticise it.

4. MOST IMPORTANT and as I mentioned in my initial post. We were all young, we all made mistakes and of course I did that too. Hell, I did many embarassing things! :D ... BUT in the end, if you plan to send something out and want the public or even famous people listen to your stuff (with the chance of getting their serious attention) why would you not invest a bit of sweat to really try to make it shine!

5. Maybe this is the MOST IMPORTANT (hahahaha!). *Please beware, I was NOT talking noobs, beginners or the likes. I was talking aspiring composers.*
Hell, I would NEVER EVER rant on someone who is trying to get his first stuff done in a sequencer. I am talking people calling themself composers, trying to get a foot in the bizz door!


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## dcoscina (Feb 24, 2014)

Tone Deaf @ Mon Feb 24 said:


> As a self-proclaimed novice/hobbyist who has no delusions about ever "making it" as a composer, I'm not sure I fall into the group to whom you are addressing, but nonetheless, I can't help feeling pissed off by your approach to the subject.
> 
> g).



I wouldn't take it personally. If you enjoy composing music and you get good feedback from people on SoundCloud or wherever you post, and you're not interested in pursuing it as a livelihood, I don't think you fall into Alex's classification (unless you email him asking for thoughts on one of your pieces )

I think it would actually be liberating to not worry about how popular your music is or whether it's bankable enough to keep getting work from. I compose music on the side although I do get the occasional paying job for orchestrating or whatnot. 

Also, it depends on what type of music you compose. A lot of what I compose I don't post here or anywhere because they are done in Notion or Sibelius where the sonic quality is not up to the standard of what many have come to expect and I don't really give a fig because they are written with real orchestras or ensembles in mind. 

DC


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## RiffWraith (Feb 24, 2014)

Alex - this is great news! Less competition! :D 

Seriously, I hear a lot of crap out there. Have you listened to the B.F. contest entries? I of course have not listened to all, but many. A few were pretty darn good - tho I question whether or not these people would have been able to compose anything like what they came up with if they had not gotten such a starting point. A couple were really good, and one made my jaw drop - on originality alone. Out of the 100 or so I listened to, about 80 were absolute and complete shit. And this is WITH one of the best film composers giving them that afore-mentioned starting point. I shudder to think what their own "original" compositions might sound like. :shock: 

Problem is, computers and sw (incl. sample libs) are so readily accessible and inexpensive, that anyone can go out, by Reaper, a few libs, and not only call themselves a composer, but _think they are _one. Yikes.

As I said - less competition.

BTW Alex - to which email address or contact can I send my tracks to, because I want to start working for ______________?


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## KingIdiot (Feb 24, 2014)

Not enough mindcraft downtime


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## AC986 (Feb 24, 2014)

Waywyn @ Mon Feb 24 said:


> 2. When you buy a car? do you just sit in there, drive a few meters, get out and say: Yeh, cool car!



That's what I do.


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## AC986 (Feb 24, 2014)

Tone Deaf @ Mon Feb 24 said:


> I must now apologize to the 152 individuals whose ears I assaulted with such an atrocity that was born of my uncaring, cavalier approach to, dare I categorize it as composition. I shall crawl back into my hole and record myself repeating the phrase "you do not care...you are not a composer" one million times (with no copy/pasting).



I'd like to think that you're doing that, but it's not entirely necessary.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Feb 24, 2014)

Perhaps I am giving too much benefit of the doubt (and I am sure there are some lazy jackasses out there) but in the past _I_ have said things along the lines of "I only worked on it for 3 hours" to downplay the amount of effort I actually put into a piece of music that was not very good. It can be pretty heart breaking to openly admit "This is the best I can do"...For me at least. 

What I am trying to say is don't take everything at face value.


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## David Chappell (Feb 24, 2014)

Waywyn @ Mon Feb 24 said:


> Disregarding if I am hitting def ears, if there is just one guy today who was reading this, rethinking his way of approaching is music, then my work was done! ...



I just disabled soundcloud's ability to auto-post new tracks to my facebook after reading this thread, does that count? :D

Regardless, I kinda get where you're coming from. I never really saw the point in shameless self promoting anyways; most of my fb is old high school friends who don't know the difference between a flute and a cello. Sure, it's a little disheartening when my tracks have 10 views and somebody else has 10k just from spamming _every_ video in existence, but it's just meaningless statistics imo. 

There was a twitter post by Porter Robinson I found quite interesting. When asked what he thought about the aspiring EDM artists who promoted incessantly on youtube he said something like "If you spend all your time trying to get famous instead of producing quality music, you'll end up with neither". Don't know if it's his original quote, but still.

Thank you for the added encouragement, nonetheless.


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## EastWest Lurker (Feb 24, 2014)

SimonCharlesHanna @ Mon Feb 24 said:


> Perhaps I am giving too much benefit of the doubt (and I am sure there are some lazy jackasses out there) but in the past _I_ have said things along the lines of "I only worked on it for 3 hours" to downplay the amount of effort I actually put into a piece of music that was not very good. It can be pretty heart breaking to openly admit "This is the best I can do"...For me at least.
> 
> What I am trying to say is don't take everything at face value.



If you are not honest with the person you are asking to critique it, it helps neither of you.


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## KEnK (Feb 24, 2014)

germancomponist @ Mon Feb 24 said:


> JJP @ Mon Feb 24 said:
> 
> 
> > Perhaps because I don't have a website they just think I'm nobody. I don't have a problem with that.
> ...


Count me in this group also.
I literally thought I was the only person in the world w/o one!

Alex-

This is quite an interesting thread to me-
I have followed your tuts and advice for years, 
but have always remained disinterested in the importance you put on social media.
This is because I actually value my privacy (quite highly)
and am not seeking to join the rat race of media composers.
I do get "work", but am more interested in "Music as Art".
I will actually never join Facebook, twitter or whatever-
I don't even have or want a cell phone.

It seems to me that your fondness for social media has come back to bite you.
I'm guessing you now have so many "friends" that a kind of tipping or turning
point has been reached.

Your beautiful Buddhist Temple is now over run w/ rats 
clamoring for a morsel of your wisdom.

What will you do?
Get a cat?
~o) 
k


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## EastWest Lurker (Feb 24, 2014)

Nevermind.


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## TheUnfinished (Feb 24, 2014)

I hear where you're coming from Alex. Spend a few hours on Facebook or YouTube and watch this phenomenon whizz past you. People posting that they're currently writing a track and that they'll 'release' it soon. A few high fives on Souncloud and it goes to the head.

There does seems to be a prevailing theory with some younger composers that the idea of spending ten years building a career is just not an option, and therefore great compromises are made to get a quick start. But that quick start doesn't always continue to build. Especially if the best you can do is a pastiche of the style du jour, but which is already on its way out.

'Get rich quick' music libraries don't help though. I've heard some absymal music make it's way onto television. And I'll wager they offer a shocking deal to enthusiastic and unwary composers 'trying to get a foot in the door'.


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## Markus S (Feb 24, 2014)

Waywyn @ Mon Feb 24 said:


> Guys, I have to set something right.
> It is not because I am having a bad day, nor do I need to vent (just for the sake of venting) as I am perfectly fine with either answering emails or simply ignoring them ... but all in all I find it alarming, seriously I do, that so many apsiring composers tend to promote themselves more than actually REALLY DOING what they promote
> 
> Since years I replied to every email, no matter how bad or low enthusiastic it was written. I just wanted to help and I still want to. Of course I get message from people asking myself: What do they want from me? They would "compose me to death if there would be a competition :D ... however, to at least 90% it always ends the same. People seem to not care about what they produce, what they operate and what the gear they own is possible of.



I see - understanding better now what you mean!


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## JJP (Feb 24, 2014)

KEnK @ Mon Feb 24 said:


> This is quite an interesting thread to me-
> I have followed your tuts and advice for years,
> but have always remained disinterested in the importance you put on social media.
> <snip>
> ...



I too was wondering if this phenomenon was coming into play. No doubt there are benefits to be had from engaging in social media, which I do as well. However, there are drawbacks to having a two-way communication with so many people, most of whom we do not know in any personal or professional way. Some of those are are slacker, "wanna-bes", who have no skill or patience to develop skill, yet social media gives them a way to connect with those whom they see as successful or celebrities.

I once had a kid contact me via twitter because I worked on his favorite TV show. He thought he had some songs that they could use. When I politely explained that I didn't work in licensing and couldn't help, he wasn't disappointed. Rather he was overjoyed and retweeted the exchange to his friends just because somebody who worked on the show replied to him.

Because of situations like this, I wonder if the benefits of social media promotion can be overstated for many. I know many people who have huge followings on social media, but who in spite of a few successes, are largely struggling to pull down decent paying jobs. Very often the greatest benefits are for the companies who traffic in the data generated by our social interactions.

Frontline recently did a wonderful, fascinating documentary on this phenomenon. It's worth a look:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/generation-like/


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## G.E. (Feb 24, 2014)

Well said Alex.I totally understand where you are coming from.

I'm a newbie myself but even though I've learned a lot from you youtube videos,I never would've thought about spamming your inbox asking for feedback.I am perfectly capable of realizing for myself that I was lazy and copied/pasted parts or that my orchestration sucks.All I have to do is listen to a track from a professional,then listen to mine.

And I don't understand how some people have the nerve to promote themselves even before they can write some actual decent music.If someone (hypothetically speaking) wanted me to score their film right now, I would respectfully refuse because it just doesn't feel right F***ing up their movie.I need to feel that I deserve something if I'm gonna do it.And right now there are many composers who deserve it more than I do.Some day I KNOW I will be an awesome composer but until then I have to keep learning and not act like an obnoxious a-hole. 

Be thankful you don't have to deal with hip hop producers. :lol:
I work in a studio where I mostly deal with pop and hip hop artists and I'm amazed by what kind of demos people keep sending me.Some of them don't even sound like music but they are expecting people to pay money for that crap.


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## Darthmorphling (Feb 24, 2014)

Tone Deaf @ Mon Feb 24 said:


> As a self-proclaimed novice/hobbyist who has no delusions about ever "making it" as a composer, I'm not sure I fall into the group to whom you are addressing, but nonetheless, I can't help feeling pissed off by your approach to the subject.
> 
> g).



I am a novice/hobbyist like yourself and I didn't take this as directed at people like us. What I took away from Alex's post, was that people are asking for his critique, and then just brushing off his suggestions. Basically just using the piece as an excuse to use him for connections.

One of the best things I did was put a piece on Jose Herring's Facebook group. He was kind enough to tear it apart and suggest numerous ways to make it better. I took his advice and redid the piece. It was a great learning experience. It still is not my best work, but I was able to take those ideas and do a much better job on my next piece.


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## germancomponist (Feb 24, 2014)

JJP @ Mon Feb 24 said:


> Frontline recently did a wonderful, fascinating documentary on this phenomenon. It's worth a look:
> <http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/generation-like/>



I watched this yesterday and it is absolutely worth it to watch!


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## Lex (Feb 24, 2014)

How hard can it be to listen 3 seconds of a track, hear it's sh*t, then reply "Sounds nice, keep it up!" ? 0oD 


alex


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## AC986 (Feb 24, 2014)

I don't do any social media in the strictest sense ie like Facebook, Twitter and so on. Never even been on the sites to even look at them.

GE most people don't have the brains to fcuk up a movie let alone anything else.


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## Waywyn (Feb 24, 2014)

Just to reply to these social media issues. I think it is not it. I think it doesn't matter because it already happened at times when there was no Facebook at all. If it wasn't a social media message, it was an email.


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## Waywyn (Feb 24, 2014)

Lex @ Mon Feb 24 said:


> How hard can it be to listen 3 seconds of a track, hear it's sh*t, then reply "Sounds nice, keep it up!" ? 0oD
> 
> 
> alex




HAHAHHAHA! Dude!!!!


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## KEnK (Feb 24, 2014)

_Very often the greatest benefits are for the companies who traffic in the data generated by our social interactions. 
_
Exactly. I actually don't trust Google or Zuckerberg at all.
I'll admit to being paranoid about being tracked and all that goes w/ it.
It surprised me when so many were outraged when the NSA thing broke,
seems to me GoogleBook has been doing the same thing for years!

On another note, 
what's at fault here is the availability of all these ready made tools,
that have now become toys. 
Orchestra in a Box- Just add water and stir!
It's par for the course that most people aren't going to want to work on craft.
Too much effort.
And this leads us to the race to bottom- in terms of both quality and reasonable fees. 

k


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## KEnK (Feb 24, 2014)

Waywyn @ Mon Feb 24 said:


> Just to reply to these social media issues. I think it is not it. I think it doesn't matter because it already happened at times when there was no Facebook at all. If it wasn't a social media message, it was an email.


I think it's very very different.
While what you're OP may not be about social media,
do you honestly think it's not involved w/ the problem you address?

My take on your post is that you are frustrated from getting 
too many- "What do think of my Epic EMD piece"?

If you only had an email addrees, that wouldn't happen.

k


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## Markus S (Feb 24, 2014)

This said, it's not enough to roll the MODwheel to start a successful music career. Quality of the work is just a part of it. It's a discussion that comes quite often around here, actually : is it enough to be a great composer to make a living? Can you be a so so composer and still make a good living with the right connections?


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## germancomponist (Feb 24, 2014)

KEnK @ Mon Feb 24 said:


> On another note,
> what's at fault here is the availability of all these ready made tools,
> that have now become toys.
> Orchestra in a Box- Just add water and stir!
> ...



What I saw and say for years. The most used answer was and is something about "time safer" e.t.c. .


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## Daniel James (Feb 24, 2014)

I think I am most definitely with Alex on this one. 

More recently I have been inundated with people sending me links to their music, sometimes even saying things like "yeah I didn't put much time into this what do you think". Then I listen, give my genuine honest feedback which is then presented by people telling me why I am wrong, or that I am being an asshole.....basically 99% of people who send out their music are looking for you to tell them how amazing they are, which most of the time, they are not....yet.

Also another reason I get annoyed with this aggressive link sharing is the people who expect you to listen to every single track they send, within five minutes of them sending it. Then if you don't they start badgering you to listen, then get annoyed that you havn't listened. I hate with a passion when people expect things of you without checking first, even more when its a stranger you have never spoken too before.

Also, mostly due to my walk through videos, I get lots of random trouble shooting messages "Hey when I do x y and z with Logic Pro 6 this one midi thing does thats, what can I do to fix it?" etc Which I have no clue how to answer...I get one or two of these a day.

Also like Alex I always get those certain types who expect things from you because of your associations. Now in my short career I have been privileged enough to meet some amazing people and do some amazing things. Some through 'luck' some through hard work and some I have earned. Now you wouldn't believe how many emails I get a day asking for composer x's phone number or game company y's direct email etc etc then they get annoyed that I don't give it away. Firstly thats not my information to give, secondly I earned the right to know that information, why should I just give that away because you demand it.

It's people like this who give the rest of those who are genuinely looking to self improve a bad name. The more public a figure you are in the community the more of these messages you get a day. Like some of you mentioned you see these types of things rarely....I get at least 10+ a day, I try to check out as many as I can but in my experience 99% are just fishing for compliments, which tends to make me lose the drive to listen to anymore.

So yeah this is a bit of a ramble post but in conclusion, at first its not a big deal but after a while it grows tiresome. Which is only made worse by people who demand things from you.

-DJ


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## Peter M. (Feb 24, 2014)

This does not have much with the topic at hand, but I think it touches on a few points. 

Promoting music on social networks is becoming more and more meaningless. Let me explain why. I've noticed a trend where people don't even click on anything they see on let's say facebook unless it's a picture of a hot girl/guy. That doesn't surprise me as people are generally visual animals.

But whenever I posted a soundcloud link with a piece of music on facebook, I get a certain number of likes on FB, then I go to soundcloud and see that there is no plays on that particular piece. Some people (friends, family, girlfriends) just click like to "support" what you do, without even taking a few minutes to actually listen to it. 

The only people who actually listen to the pieces I post are other composers/musicians. And I really didn't get into this to be making music for musicians.

After some time my piece will get random plays and likes on Soundcloud from random people that stumbled upon it because they were probably searching for music, or listened to something similar. 

The point I'm trying to make is, people just don't care, they want to do what they want to do, you can't make them listen to your music, so I'm thinking about stopping promoting myself on social media networks completely. I see no point in posting music that almost nobody will listen to except a few musicians. I sometimes do piano covers of popular music, and boy, when people see Bon Jovi in the title... the link explodes. Post an original work... nobody cares.


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## Waywyn (Feb 24, 2014)

KEnK @ Mon Feb 24 said:


> Waywyn @ Mon Feb 24 said:
> 
> 
> > Just to reply to these social media issues. I think it is not it. I think it doesn't matter because it already happened at times when there was no Facebook at all. If it wasn't a social media message, it was an email.
> ...



KEnK, can it be that you missed a few of my statements before? 
As I said, it didn't matter if it was a private message on Facebook now or an email back then. The same issues applied throughout the years, no matter if there were social media plattforms, just forums or just email conversation!

Also as I said before, I am NOT frustrated because I get too many of them. If I would get frustrated because of getting too many, don't you think it would make more sense to simply put them to spam, delete or ignore them? It is not personal frustration, it was supposed to be a wakeup call and on purpose I am starting to post that here, since I hope to get input from you guys, before I eventually slam out another article?

To me posting on a forum is not venting, bashing and ranting on others. I am not a guy driving around with a motor cycle throwing bricks into ad windows, I am a pro composer, trying to write about pro issues and hopefully getting feedback from pro composers.

If you see my post aggressive in the sense of just puking in public, then this is not my fault and never was my attention (even when I was using words such as f*ck ), since many here replying totally getting what I was writing about.


In the end it is supposed to be a wakeup call making others think about checking their attitude towards their job before getting their stuff public - that is all!


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## Arbee (Feb 24, 2014)

The main reason most people won't be successful is simply that they grossly underestimate the effort required to be successful. Once they realise what it actually takes they decide it's too hard and take another life path or, worse, spend their lives bitterly proclaiming it's only about luck and who you know. Try to imagine how much work might be involved in success, multiply it by 100, then you might get close.

As the saying goes "the harder I work, the luckier I get".

.


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## AC986 (Feb 24, 2014)

Daniel James @ Mon Feb 24 said:


> I get at least 10+ a day, I try to check out as many as I can but in my experience 99% are just fishing for compliments, which tends to make me lose the drive to listen to anymore.
> 
> So yeah this is a bit of a ramble post but in conclusion, at first its not a big deal but after a while it grows tiresome. Which is only made worse by people who demand things from you.
> 
> -DJ



I would say stop doing that. Think about it for a second. A bricklayer asks another bricklayer who's a perfect stranger to come and check out a house he just built. Fuck you would be the answer. 

Ebay is a classic example of how people think. They will send you messages about the item you have for sale. They are wonderful people and are very polite, even friendly to the point where you think you must know them. They buy your item and don't even give you any feedback because their job is done and they no longer give a shit because they didn't really give one in the first place.

Anyone asks you in future to review their music, say yes, it's a flat rate of 20 quid per track and see what happens next. 

Ask a mastering engineer to master your tracks for free because you are nice guy and see what happens. There have been enough examples on this site of emails sent out to people who want music done for free, so don't review anymore tracks for these wankers.


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## Daniel James (Feb 24, 2014)

> Anyone asks you in future to review their music, say yes, it's a flat rate of 20 quid per track and see what happens next.



That is actually a really good idea. I mean giving proper feedback on something is technically a skill that could be monetized. Sort of like a consultant or a teacher. Of course no one would go for it, but if that was your standard way of responding, people woudld get used to it 

-DJ


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## Waywyn (Feb 24, 2014)

Peter M. @ Mon Feb 24 said:


> This does not have much with the topic at hand, but I think it touches on a few points.
> 
> Promoting music on social networks is becoming more and more meaningless. Let me explain why. I've noticed a trend where people don't even click on anything they see on let's say facebook unless it's a picture of a hot girl/guy. That doesn't surprise me as people are generally visual animals.
> 
> ...



Peter, let me give you a few things to think about on this topic:
First of all it doesn't matter if you get likes, comments or whatever, because likes and whatever don't give you any indication about someone listening to your music. Okay, you check plays on Soundcloud and you see just a few or none at all, but I would suggest to keep on promoting music as this isn't something which happens overnight. It can be a process of years until it makes sense!

I tried many things in my life and I always found out that you have success at something on just doing one basic thing: sticking to it!
It doesn't matter if it is bow shooting, if it is sports, playing chess or whatever. If you stick to it and really keep going, you get good and see sucess! Yes, some guys make it faster, some are slower, but it all depends on how long you can keep swimming!

Another thing is, why not approaching the promo stuff on e.g. Facebook a bit difference. I made lots of connections on Facebook but I simply didn't write PMs to famous composers saying: Hey, I am blabla, listen to my shit! (not saying that you did! - just expressing the most blatant way )

If one was willing to accept my friend request I was getting into conversation with that person by simply replying to a post etc. ... maybe a few weeks, just decently trying to correspond with that person. If what you write or how you behave drew attention to you, you could go a bit further and so on. I think you got what I am trying to say. Not furiously write stupid shit below that persons post, but just really think of a good argument or answer on it. Of course nothing can happen, but it may work out.

Just don't worry and keep going! Everything you seed out, comes back to you!


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## Waywyn (Feb 24, 2014)

Daniel James @ Mon Feb 24 said:


> > Anyone asks you in future to review their music, say yes, it's a flat rate of 20 quid per track and see what happens next.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hahaha, that is actually awesome! :D


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## KEnK (Feb 24, 2014)

Waywyn @ Mon Feb 24 said:


> ...If you see my post aggressive in the sense of just puking in public, then this is not my fault and never was my attention (even when I was using words such as f*ck ), since many here replying totally getting what I was writing about.
> 
> In the end it is supposed to be a wakeup call making others think about checking their attitude towards their job before getting their stuff public - that is all!


No, I don't think you're "aggressively puking in public". :mrgreen: 
But I'm not alone in thinking that social media has a big role in what you're saying.

k


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## rgames (Feb 24, 2014)

I understand where you're coming from Alex, but the disdain you show for anyone who doesn't use a modwheel is the same disdain that other composers have for you because you're not using live instruments. There are also groups of composers who show disdain for people who use preset synth patches. There are groups of composers who show disdain for anyone who still uses 19th century harmonies. It goes on and on and on and on and....

All of this disdain is a good example of why there never has been and never will be a composers' union: nobody dislikes composers more than other composers.

And let's not kid ourselves, promoting one's self is a huge part of making it in the music business. Talent and hard work are not really the major factors - they're threshold requirements but not always a discriminator. So it's no surprise that some people promote themselves in excess. You can't guess their motivations or abilities or levels of effort, so I think it's better to just comment on your like/dislike of the music and move on.

rgames


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## AC986 (Feb 24, 2014)

Daniel James @ Mon Feb 24 said:


> > Anyone asks you in future to review their music, say yes, it's a flat rate of 20 quid per track and see what happens next.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Teachers don't work for nothing, even if they pull the vocation card from time to time.

In the end, people that make demands that you do not know and probably wouldn't want to know and will probably never meet anyway, will wind up doing your fucking head in sooner rather than later. Rule them out of your life!

I just realized that most people here don't know each other. Hahahahah. No wonder I feel strange. No just kidding.


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## dcoscina (Feb 24, 2014)

The irony of this thread is rather amusing though unintentionally I suspect.


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## Waywyn (Feb 24, 2014)

rgames @ Mon Feb 24 said:


> I understand where you're coming from Alex, but the disdain you show for anyone who doesn't use a modwheel is the same disdain that other composers have for you because you're not using live instruments. There are also groups of composers who show disdain for people who use preset synth patches. There are groups of composers who show disdain for anyone who still uses 19th century harmonies. It goes on and on and on and on and....



To be honest I have to totally disagree with this.
A composer who is working with sample libs and not making use of e.g. velocity or a modwheel should be the same as a e.g. string player, not making use of vibrato or bow pressure. If someone has to work with samples it is mostly a budget question. If someone wants to incorporate 19th century harmonies, it is simply a matter of taste ... but if you are not able to e.g. work with dynamics and velocity, then this is just a craftmanship fail such as composing in 19th century style, but always forgetting one or two notes from the scale or confusing major with minor ... or working with live orchestra but always seating brass in the front while "hiding" the strings at the very back!


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## G.E. (Feb 24, 2014)

> So it's no surprise that some people promote themselves in excess. You can't guess their motivations or abilities or levels of effort, so I think it's better to just comment on your like/dislike of the music and move on.



There are good ways to promote yourself and there are also bad ways.Tagging 100 people you don't know on facebook or following 10 million people on twitter(expecting them to follow you back) are pretty much the worst ways you can do it.There's just something disingenuous about that.When I see that happen I get the same feeling I get when going through my spam folder and seeing emails from people trying to sell me fake male enhancement pills or a Nigerian prince who wants to transfer large sums of money into my account.

They are doing more harm to themselves this way because it just turns people off.


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## MacQ (Feb 24, 2014)

Waywyn @ Mon Feb 24 said:


> rgames @ Mon Feb 24 said:
> 
> 
> > the disdain you show for anyone who doesn't use a modwheel is the same disdain that other composers have for you because you're not using live instruments.
> ...



I'm with Alex. Music to me is fundamentally about expression and evolution, and choosing to ignore that makes for bad music. Quantize your rhythms as hard as you like, but PLEASE don't fix your velocities and leave your CC's untouched!! Musicality and intention can be brought to even the most synthetic sounds. But it doesn't happen automatically. That's why I've got several input sources for CC ... breath-control, MIDI fader, expression pedal, iPad touchOSC (is Lemur worth $50?), etc. It takes practice to massage CC's, and it takes critical listening. Neither of those things happen overnight!

If you're not writing for live players (who will magically impart their OWN musicianship on your work), you MUST inject YOUR musicianship into the sample performance. Thankfully every library worth owning gives you myriad options for this. So USE them, and be amazed at how quickly it starts to sound like REAL MUSIC! :wink:


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## wst3 (Feb 24, 2014)

If I might...

I hesitate to send out my work for evaluation these days. The world has changed a lot in the last 30 years, and what would have been perfectly acceptable once upon a time - e.g. a rough sketch of a composition - is simply no longer tolerated.

Too many people can not hear through a poor production to hear the composition that lies beneath. That makes it a bit more troubling to send stuff out.

Used to be (and I'm showing my age, I know) you'd record a piano or guitar track that demonstrated the basic idea. If the client liked it you'd do a full on production. If they didn't you'd move on.

Now most folks expect the full-on production from the start. Why? Mostly, I think, because we can. Or maybe because the other guy does that.

Hey, no question a fully done production will sound better than a scratch track (most of the time<G>!).

But if I want a critique on my composition and arranging skills I don't want to have to spend hours tweaking the CC data to get it to sound as good as it possibly can. I also don't wish to spend every last cent buying the latest and greatest libraries.

There is a place for polished production, but unless you are asking for a critique of your final production I don't think the first pass is it.

Then there is the whole issue of asking for a critique, and knowing who it is you are asking. Before I would send Alex anything I'd have that conversation - what does he expect, what weight does he put on library selection, attention to detail in the performance data, reverb, etc?

Recently I did send a number of compositions off to a potential mentor/teacher. Most of them were PDFs of the scores, at his request, so that he would not be distracted by poor production quality. That worked out well.

Next up I will spend the time to polish one or two of the pieces so that he can get an idea of what I can do for a mock-up. But that takes WAY MORE TIME, and if he did not think I had the foundation (composition, arrangement) in place then the production would not matter... would it.

So I do agree with Alex that it seems folks are not putting their best foot forward, and I don't really understand why that is.

At the same time I question the need for a final, polished demo if you don't have the fundamentals in place.


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## jaredcowing (Feb 24, 2014)

Waywyn @ Mon Feb 24 said:


> A composer who is working with sample libs and not making use of e.g. velocity or a modwheel should be the same as a e.g. string player, not making use of vibrato or bow pressure.



Hey, senza vib. is a legit performing technique. :wink: 

I see the music biz like acting, some perceive it as easy money having fun, and others never had anyone clue them in about how they're maybe not so great... there's sort of a pyramid, with many really really bad actors at the bottom and some really good ones at the top. It will probably always be like that for any creative profession- there'll always be musicians who write sub-standard music either for lack of talent, experience or effort. The inability to accept criticism and "did this in 2 hours" attitude just makes it easier to tell who is serious and who is in it for fun/to "express themselves."


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## JJP (Feb 24, 2014)

I just want to say that this is a very interesting little thread. Alex has raised some very real issues about the quality of our work, how it is perceived by others, and how social media is influencing our lives and careers. Thanks alex and everyone for so many thoughtful posts.

By the way, I think it's worth mentioning that long before email people were sending awful demos and unplayable scores to professionals via post mail. Because it was more expensive back then and harder to find the right address, there weren't as many. A few of the absolute worst examples would get copied and passed around among colleagues for a laugh because they were such a novelty.

Today it has become so cheap and easy to record and send out mediocre or bad stuff on the 'net that it has become just annoying spam. Every dope noodling on a keyboard or pasting a few loops can indulge in the fantasy that he or she may be the next Hans Zimmer. They can then send their musical Frankenstein to a list of hundreds in an instant.


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## Astronaut FX (Feb 24, 2014)

I think I can now better understand where some of you are coming from, and perhaps feel I shouldn't have been so offended. That being said, I'll likely not be posting any further pieces of music here. 

I would point out however, there are certain professions/endeavors for which those who excel at those particular professions/endeavors also endure a fair amount of adulation from those who aspire to be like them. Creating music is one of those professions/endeavors. Success is often accompanied by a fair amount of notoriety, and with the success, you have to accept a fair amount of encroachment on your privacy. I rarely have much sympathy for those who achieve the notoriety and then lament the intrusions that come with it...it's well known territory and should not be unanticipated. If you can't handle what goes along with it, you should have considered another profession. 

But I can at least appreciate that it would indeed be tiresome after a while.

Lastly, since Daniel has chimed in as well, I can only observe (with all due respect) that I wonder how many of those individuals who you would categorize as "aggressive" ponied up the $200 or so for your Hybrid Two library. I imagine you didn't find that to be an intrusion.

I'm not trying to be a jerk and I'm not trying to start a flame war...I'm just suggesting there's another way of looking at things. Yes, I'm sure that some of you are quite put upon by those seeking your advice. And I'm sure that you often find it a monumental waste of time, because large percentages of those really don't want your advice (and ignore it), they just want to climb your back to success without expending any real work. But at the same time, that's part of the toll that goes with success in your field of choice.


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## Musicologo (Feb 24, 2014)

I'd say that sometimes we are just not aware of where we stand in terms of the clients and peers expectations.

I've been learning a LOT from the forum and videos and by doing and REdoing and RE-REdoing my tracks over the past 5 years.

I'm trying to improve mainly my production skills, since I've spent most of my time focusing of symbolic notation and theory and scores...

this said, over the years whenever I posted a track and lacked feedback, sometime people would draw attention to some parameter i was not even considering... 

I mean, the example of velocity may seem obvious, but I remember once when someone advised me about the placement of my instruments in the room was totally incoherent.

Probably for someone in the know, they would assume that by then I should already master reverb, EQ, placement, etc... and I was miles away from understanding even what that was and how it was supposed to be tweaked.

I'm glad someone took the time to explain that to me and gave me some good hints.

So, if someone is sending out tracks with no dynamics and modulation, perhaps they are just unaware of the importance of that parameter... we are all in different stages of our long, long, steep, learning path...


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## dannthr (Feb 24, 2014)

This is sort of my job right now, so I get the frustration, but also I've dealt with this so much (on the daily) that I understand what is received and what is not--this is not a message that will be received.

The best response to the young, that I have found, is to merely offer the next step. It's not always going to be enough to remember back when you were starting and the steps you chose and why, because you're probably smarter than they are and those steps would be too big for them to take.

There is a whole mountain to climb in front of them and they can't see everything, so you just offer the next problem--the very next foothold--and you let them go.

They will either accept that it's the next step for them or not, but you can't control that.

I never lie.

But I've found that more often than not, less caustic responses are accepted with less resistance--people are like a non-Newtonian fluid.

I could argue that the last two major threads from you, Alex, were designed to bring attention to yourself--but that's social media--in a way, all threads are a way to bring attention to ourselves.

Personally, social media is an unfortunate necessity. Freelance creatives like composers are fighting an absolute saturation of noise to get noticed and work only goes to people who are known--only goes to people who are known--I think in the last five years I've seen maybe 4 legit postings for a game composer.

When my mom was dying, I stopped the hustle engine, I stopped promoting myself, I stopped showing off my work--who could blame me, I focused on family stuff and I had a steady job teaching music production to support that focus--but it killed my career.

A career is momentum and it takes a lot of self-promotion to start one (especially in games).

People are coming to you, Alex, because you're named and you've done a good job being known. They come to you because you know the gate-keepers of that work, that's how you got that work in the first place, and they see you as a pathway to them.

But that's just because they don't know the real Alex Pfeffer (dot net). 

It's the same for JJP, it's just his social circles are different--he's low profile, but his IMDB is not, and that becomes a social media resource for him.

Social media and self-promoting websites has basically replaced CVs and it does so in a really robust way because it's not just a work history but also a demo reel and a broadcasting center.

In today's culture, it's not really about receiving something, it's about tuning in or ignoring something.

So really, that's you're choice, people are going to send you their crap whether you post this thread or not.

Anyway, if it makes you feel any better, Alex, I wouldn't send you anything unless it featured DISTORTED.


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## rJames (Feb 24, 2014)

What he ∆ (dannthr) said. But in addition.

There are some people who will never be able to self-critique. And there are gradations of the ability as well.

I remember that when I first played guitar I was totally amazing...astonishingly great.
Then after a few years I was really, really good. A few more years and I was just OK. After a few more I was just average, And finally I realize I can hardly play.

and the moral of the story is... as our horizons grow we tend to see how much we don't know.


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## dannthr (Feb 24, 2014)

Honestly, there wouldn't be any real joy of it if our horizons didn't grow with us.


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## TGV (Feb 25, 2014)

dannthr @ Tue Feb 25 said:


> Honestly, there wouldn't be any real joy of it if our horizons didn't grow with us.


That's a nice way of putting it. Very nice, actually. Succinct. And I don't think it's a quote. Well, it should be. It should be on walls. People should have this signature (if I googled your name properly):

There wouldn't be any real joy of it if our horizons didn't grow with us.
-- Dan Reynolds


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## rayinstirling (Feb 25, 2014)

I treat Alex's statement as being fundamental in our present musical world.

Never before has there been so many people holding the tools to produce some sort of noise. It's deafening and hasn't changed the size of the talent pool in any significant way. A few KNOW or SENSE what THEY are doing isn't good enough and continue put the hours in to better themselves. MOST don't or probably CAN'T detect a problem in their output/audio presentation and ultimately no amount of outside help will polish turds.

It's funny reading the posts here where someone sort of agrees but depending on their standpoint tries to hide a little "but" in there.


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## Markus S (Feb 25, 2014)

If Alex P and Daniel J are the ones irritated and overruled by this phenomena, I think it's quite certainly that it is because you do tutorials. People listen to them, and tell themselves, hey, this guy seem to know what he's are talking about, let's see what they say to my track. If you do not want to receive this kind of post, then state in your tutorials, that you do not want to receive emails about specific questions, due to lack of time or whatever, and so be it. Problem solved.


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## peksi (Feb 25, 2014)

rayinstirling @ Tue Feb 25 said:


> Never before has there been so many people holding the tools to produce some sort of noise. It's deafening and hasn't changed the size of the talent pool in any significant way. A few KNOW or SENSE what THEY are doing isn't good enough and continue put the hours in to better themselves. MOST don't or probably CAN'T detect a problem in their output/audio presentation and ultimately no amount of outside help will polish turds.



never before in human history has a single person had such a complete orchestra at fingertips, to spill out his/her hearts content to music. this enables people with talent for composing to emerge and i beg to differ that it will affect the talent pool.

sadly they will most likely get drown in the sea of composers emerging with them, especially the ones who refuse to play social games to lure attention from the industry.


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## Xavb (Feb 25, 2014)

I must say i am sadly surprise with this thread. I always liked these forums by the nice atmosphere of musicians trying to help each other.

Said that, my point of view, as a musician artistic Producer:

I don’t care if musicians know their instruments, I don’t care about their education, experience, nationality, sex or religion or even what they say: I just listen with interest and I like it to not. Their succeed in the music industry is another step that depends on many factors.

In any case, to ignore or look down on somebody because it does not belong to your “club” or “level of knowledge” is just bad. I know musicians who create real ART and that their technical or musical knowledge is very low (and the other way round).

So, help them if you like or ignore them. Is up to you. But it is sad to know that you ignore them due to the classist reasons that you explained us. "Not good enough for your help" sounds not that good.


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## Waywyn (Feb 25, 2014)

Xavb @ Tue Feb 25 said:


> I must say i am sadly surprise with this thread. I always liked these forums by the nice atmosphere of musicians trying to help each other.
> 
> Said that, my point of view, as a musician artistic Producer:
> 
> ...



*sigh* sorry, but I can say for sure that you didn't even read the full thing


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## Waywyn (Feb 25, 2014)

Okay, after a night of sleep and reviewing my intial post again I tried to make some things more obvious. Thanks all so far for your feedback!


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## lux (Feb 25, 2014)

wow! see what happens when you accidentally set the wrong velocity curve on your controller...


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## kfirpr (Feb 25, 2014)

Alex, can I ask you a question?
Who are you that can determine if people will be successful? I'm asking seriously

You may have some good points, but is seems that your channel your frustration on musician that asking for help..just my 2 cents

BTW
VI really changed the way I think about music and I'm really grateful for all the people who replied to my question..and of course there is nothing more exciting then a big shot Hollywood composer replying to your tread :wink:


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## Waywyn (Feb 25, 2014)

kfirpr @ Tue Feb 25 said:


> Alex, can I ask you a question?
> Who are you that can determine if people will be successful? I'm asking seriously
> 
> You may have some good points, but is seems that your channel your frustration on musician that asking for help..just my 2 cents



Okay ... again:

I am NOT frustrated. I am NOT angry. This is NOT a bash but more of a waking call to all the people out there who are trying at all cost to get into business (and then probably ask themselves after a few months of trying, why it didn't work out).

Of course I am not the one who can say if someone is successfull or not, but this title is surely ment to grab attention!

This article is NOT aimed towards musicians asking for help!
This is aimed toward new and the typical aspiring composer who is promoting himself more than actually caring about his own work. It is aimed towards people who are trying to get a foot in the door as a professional composer but don't even know how to operate the very essential things of MIDI and compose for the sake of sharing! Clear now?


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## Daniel James (Feb 25, 2014)

Tone Deaf @ Mon Feb 24 said:


> Lastly, since Daniel has chimed in as well, I can only observe (with all due respect) that I wonder how many of those individuals who you would categorize as "aggressive" ponied up the $200 or so for your Hybrid Two library. I imagine you didn't find that to be an intrusion.



I don't see the direct connection between the two here. The discussion here has nothing to do with customer support or messages relating to my sample library...I am not ever sure where that connection came from. Are you implying that because someone buys a sample library, the developer is now indebted to that person? that's like saying because I buy icing from a cake shop, the owner now HAS to critique the cake I make it with because I gave him money for the icing. If someone has a business related question, query or support problem they get responded to asap, thats how business is run. Anything beyond that is a personal assumption of me...which most of the time I don't mind at all, but I don't owe that to anyone.

What I am talking about are the people who message you out of the blue saying listen to this amazing track I wrote in 30 minutes, can you give me feedback. Then you do and they think you are being harsh on them. Like I say its the people who only send you stuff for you to tell them how amazing they are. I never pretend to be an expert at anything, if someone asks my opinion on something I give it, even if its not what they wanted to hear. Now imagine this scenario many times a day, from people who EXPECT you to go out of your way for them, then have the potential to get annoyed at you when you do....tell me, what is the upside in that for the person being sent the tracks.
 
For the record I never said I don't like people sending me messages, I love to help where I can....I just dont like it when its expected of me. Like I owe them something. I never take issue with people posting their tracks here on Facebook or Vi Control...I know what it is to be excited about something you did and want to share and I know even better that feeling that you need guidance with your work, thats where places like the Member Composition forum are invaluable, everybody understands the situation. Now when someone does the same through a personal message or an email it all of a sudden becomes a personal thing and thats where people start to expect certain things from you with nothing in return.

-DJ


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## dryano (Feb 25, 2014)

Alex and Daniel are absolutely right and its good, that people like them finally tell their opinion about this topic to the public.
Its an insolence today, that people send their music to the "pro's" with the order to evaluate that, without the tiniest bit of respect or consideration. I can see that on FB and Soundcloud all day. Some people even share their music as a comment in other people's music. Of course, they can do so. But if they do, they will likely never be successfull in any way and that is basically, what Alex wanted to tell them. Its simply a bad behavior. I highly respect both composers, for beeing even helpful to those people in the first place. I would just ignore or accuse them.


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## Hannes_F (Feb 25, 2014)

Waywyn @ Tue Feb 25 said:


> This article is NOT aimed towards musicians asking for help!
> This is aimed toward new and the typical aspiring composer who is promoting himself more than actually caring about his own work. It is aimed towards people who are trying to get a foot in the door as a professional composer but don't even know how to operate the very essential things of MIDI and compose for the sake of sharing! Clear now?



I think it is very clear. And perfectly understandable.

The only problem with such a thread is probably that some of those that are not really adressed to will nevertheless feel so, especially if in the beginnings and still insecure. While some of those that this is aimed to will maybe never read it . . . :twisted: Other than that is is an interesting thread.


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## G.E. (Feb 25, 2014)

For the record,Daniel was always cool about responding to messages.I tweeted him 2 or 3 times and he never ignored me, which he had every right to do since he doesn't even know me.I remember one time he really helped me out when I was relatively new to kontakt.I was trying out ableton and noticed that freezing tracks wasn't saving me RAM like other daws so I asked him if he had any tips on saving RAM in ableton.That's when I learned about purging instruments in kontakt :lol:

I still ended up not buying ableton though,because I can't live without freezing tracks.
Truth be told I probably should have read the kontakt manual first.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 25, 2014)

Ron, I accidentally 'reported' you to the Mods due to a slip of the thumb on my iPad - sorry!


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## Daniel James (Feb 25, 2014)

G.E. @ Tue Feb 25 said:


> For the record,Daniel was always cool about responding to messages.I tweeted him 2 or 3 times and he never ignored me, which he had every right to do since he doesn't even know me.I remember one time he really helped me out when I was relatively new to kontakt.I was trying out ableton and noticed that freezing tracks wasn't saving me RAM like other daws so I asked him if he had any tips on saving RAM in ableton.That's when I learned about purging instruments in kontakt :lol:
> 
> I still ended up not buying ableton though,because I can't live without freezing tracks.
> Truth be told I probably should have read the kontakt manual first.



Fun fact: In Ableton when you freeze a midi track you can then track the clip to an audio track. Freezing basically exports to audio in place  (You can also drag the frozen clip into Simpler and play it on the keyboard!)

-DJ


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## rJames (Feb 25, 2014)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Feb 25 said:


> Ron, I accidentally 'reported' you to the Mods due to a slip of the thumb on my iPad - sorry!


I hope they don't take any any of my stars!!!!

(I thought you were the mods)


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 25, 2014)

Ron, I haven't been a mod for 6 months now.  But it's OK, I was bringing down the hammer for years!

I'm feeling pretty optimistic these days. I've decided that in a sea of mediocrity, good stuff will stick out like a sore thumb. So just write, listen, share, write, and write some more. And if you want criticism, go to school (fantastic experience, IMHO).


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## Astronaut FX (Feb 25, 2014)

Daniel James @ Tue Feb 25 said:


> Tone Deaf @ Mon Feb 24 said:
> 
> 
> > Lastly, since Daniel has chimed in as well, I can only observe (with all due respect) that I wonder how many of those individuals who you would categorize as "aggressive" ponied up the $200 or so for your Hybrid Two library. I imagine you didn't find that to be an intrusion.
> ...



No, that's not what I'm implying at all. I don't believe you're under any obligations. I'm simply stating that guys like you and Alex have reached "rock star" status within your field of choice. And part of what goes along with the perks of "rock star" status are some of the inherent downsides. One of which is the fact that there will be people who do make unfair demands of you. They'll trample on your privacy. They'll attempt to exploit you for their own benefit. No, it's not right and I personally would never dream of doing so myself, but it's still a reality.

It's like the doctor who complains about friends/family/neighbors asking for free medical advice, the lawyer who complains about friends/family/neighbors asking for fee legal advice, the Eddie Vedders and Kurt Cobains of the world who loathed everything that went along with being famous, the actors/actresses who complain about intrusive members of the press and/or public. It's all part of what goes along with the reality of those roles.

"Rock star" status affords you the ability to wake up in the morning and start making music (versus trying to squeeze it in after a 10 hour day job). "Rock star" status most likely helped to move more than a few copies of Hybrid Two. "Rock star" status gets you more composing gigs, which perpetuates the status. "Rock star" status puts money in your pocket. It gets you into certain social circles. Etc. 

But "rock star" status, coupled with the availability you invite via social networking avenues, also includes intrusion on your time, and inappropriate demands on your time. I can absolutely understand that this would be tiresome. But unfortunately, it's part of the package.


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## lux (Feb 25, 2014)

I want Ron's stars. Now.


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## DKeenum (Feb 25, 2014)

I've actually enjoyed this thread. Sure it could be seen as a "slap of reality," but we all need that from time to time.


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## Daniel James (Feb 25, 2014)

Tone Deaf @ Tue Feb 25 said:


> Daniel James @ Tue Feb 25 said:
> 
> 
> > Tone Deaf @ Mon Feb 24 said:
> ...



ahhhhh ok I am on the same page as you now. I get what you were saying, the way you worded the post originally made me think you were implying what I mentioned above. But yes I totally agree with you, being a 'public figure' has its upsides and downsides, definitely don't dispute that. Like I say though I have zero issue with chatting to people and helping out where I can, its those that want you to tell them how amazing they are or try to demand things from you get a bit tiresome. I am not saying they are unexpected to me, but still tiresome non the less  

-DJ


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## Danielo (Feb 25, 2014)

Gentle Persons;

Let me first say that it is this kind of thread that keeps me subscribed to this forum…the gear related stuff is definitely interesting but I think “bigger” questions about process, intent, ethics, etc. are what “keeps the eyeballs glued”, so bravo to everyone for their $20 (2 cents seems so undervalued in this day and age  )
I want to step back and comment on something that Daniel James said:

_Also, mostly due to my walk through videos, I get lots of random trouble shooting messages "Hey when I do x y and z with Logic Pro 6 this one midi thing does thats, what can I do to fix it?" etc Which I have no clue how to answer...I get one or two of these a day. _

While I am sure that this is true, do you also not get inquiries from people wanting you to compose stuff for them? I have seen it myself in the comments of your YouTube videos and (although I have no way of telling how anchored in reality these individuals are (i.e. do they want you to do it for free?)) I have no doubt that you have received some “desired” interest from such inquiries.

This goes back to the issue of the “double-edged” sword of fame that someone else mentioned elsewhere in the thread – I think that anyone that has achieved some notoriety has to deal with this, like or not, and it’s really hard to be “sympathetic” when this is what one (seemingly) has strived for.

I myself have started doing some walkthrough videos of sample libraries (nuff said on that, I am not here to promote), but one of the decisions I made was to turn on comment moderation on YouTube because I am not interested in the videos becoming a discussion forum – they are strictly an internal dialog that I am making available to others so that they don’t make some of the purchasing mistakes that I have made (of course they have a promotional purpose as well – I would be dishonest not to admit that). Lo and behold, I don’t get a lot of comments and the ones I do get, I get to decide whether they get posted or not – it could just be that the videos suck (OK if they do – I am open to constructive criticism on them though I am not seeking any) or it could be that by not giving people an “opening “ to have a dialog, they don’t bother me…

I will tell a story (whose accuracy I cannot confirm, but works well for illustrative purposes) – at the height of her “fame”, Barbara Walters apparently used to attend the PTA meetings for one of her children with dark sunglasses and a kerchief on her head. Everyone at the meeting secretly recognized who she was, but apparently no one wanted to “bother” her because they noted that she obviously wanted to maintain her “anonymity”. After several weeks of being ignored someone entered into some sort of dialog with her being careful not to refer to her in a manner that would tip others as to who she was, to which she exploded at some point and said “Don’t you know who I am – I’m Barbara Walters”! :lol:


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## rJames (Feb 25, 2014)

lux @ Tue Feb 25 said:


> I want Ron's stars. Now.


You have enough of your own, Luca.

Hey, do you remember that star wars over at Northern Sounds? Someone figured out that they could post pictures of stars in a comment field and some people had rows and rows of stars.

Was that at NS or is my memory not serving me well? (what's new there?)


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## EastWest Lurker (Feb 25, 2014)

I get lots of these requests as well. For me it is simple; if I like the person and/or hear something of value, I endeavor to help. If not, I don't and say, "sorry, too busy right now."


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## Daniel James (Feb 25, 2014)

Danielo @ Tue Feb 25 said:


> Gentle Persons;
> 
> Let me first say that it is this kind of thread that keeps me subscribed to this forum…the gear related stuff is definitely interesting but I think “bigger” questions about process, intent, ethics, etc. are what “keeps the eyeballs glued”, so bravo to everyone for their $20 (2 cents seems so undervalued in this day and age  )
> I want to step back and comment on something that Daniel James said:
> ...



I have most certainly received positive responses to my public portfolios, They are a good source to point too when a client shows interest. It serves as a positive way to show I know how to do what I do the way I do it. I don't begrudge nor am I seeking sympathy for the 'fame' I have achieved, like I mentioned earlier it has positives and negatives but at the end of the day I love living the life I do  

Also like I mentioned in a round about way, one of my favorite things about being public is all the people I get to meet. And I genuinely enjoy talking to people who are enthusiastic about things, as I would with a stranger I meet in any other way....if they are cool, have fun things to talk about and we are on the same page then its an amazing experience. If however they want to show me how amazing they are and expect that I do things for them upon first meeting them then I am naturally going to have a negative response to this....as I would in any other situation...Imagine being out in a bar, some guy recognizes you from work you do, then proceeds to come up to you unannounced and demand that you listen to his new work and critique it. Out of kindness you do and offer the feedback he requested, he then turns to you and tells you that you are an asshole and are wrong.....he then goes on to tell you how amazing he is and that I should totally let him borrow my mobile phone so he can have composer x's phone number because his friends told him he should be working for him....now imagine this scenario every day XD Like I said, I am not seeking sympathy, nor am I angry/annoyed at these people, its just tiresome. I imagine there are a few others reading this thread who have experienced similar!

-DJ


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## G.E. (Feb 25, 2014)

I can't have any sympathy for someone complaining about his "rockstar status" either.Though I think it was made clear that's not what this thread is about.

I think it's all good as long as you don't turn into a diva. :D
Thinking about this I was reminded why I admire Hans Zimmer.The man is a legend in the industry and probably has 100 better things to do,yet just a week ago he wasn't to good to chime in on a discussion had on this forum.To me at least,that's a sign of great character.
Then I see less successful people looking down on others for silly things like not being classically trained. :lol:


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## AlexandreSafi (Feb 25, 2014)

Thank you Alex Pfeffer for starting this thread, in my view this is VERY important subject to talk about! Your post is really thoughtful and can only come from a deep place of honesty! 

Ahh the old-age issue of the EGO! 
The ONE key to Self-destruction & Mass destruction in the social web of life...

How to FEEL successful (EGO):

Have a stubborness to :

- First, find what sucks about the pros, even John Williams all the way back to Bach...
- Disregard all their ideas in the first place, or pretend they're not as amazing 
because these ideas & their apparent simplicity MUST have been SOOO easy to 
find...
- Pretend those ideas are yours now, because they're in your composition(s), with 
YOUR samples that only YOU know how to use best...
- Make it sexy, by making it EPIC (propulsive), because it will make YOU a king 
among benders...
- Make it your sole END purpose to Innhalate the competition, the people & their 
God-Given inferiority by aiming more likes/thumbs up and supressing the 
possibility of anyone NOT liking you
- Know what the people of Earth, the sheep robots listeners like to listen to, what 
they are aroused by... and just give them MORE of the SAME...
- Make music to make people OWE you gratitude & appreciation...
- Make music as a means to an end (getting rich, famous...) 
- Make music to make yourself greater, a someone...

The EGO computer musician is not so different than that teenager you have in your FB contacts with "the photo of me by me" in front of the mirror... 

The EGO is about Envy/Conformism/Rigidity/Self-obsessiveness/Laziness/Flightiness/Passive aggression

How to actually BE successful/happy: (inspired from one of my cherished author R. Greene - Mastery)

Have a stubborness to:

1) Observe 2) Learn the skills (2)-3) Experiment 4) Be your own harshest critic

- First, find what you love & admire about the pros, even JW all the way back to 
Bach and ever before, Monkey hitting rocks, you can never EXPAND enough your 
horizons...
- Practice a CONTINUOUS respect for their ideas, music & keep drilling into them out 
of your PRECIOUS time, love & child-like inferiority & admiration...
- Explore PRIVATELY those ideas first through imitation in whatever form, as an 
Indiana Jones exploring the past and getting enamored by the music...
- Go from the macro to the micro: Study what is the most obvious in the music, just 
as much as the highly important details supporting and secretly lingering behind, 
those are usually more the result of a meditative than you think...
- Look at what's there, just as much as what's not in your music: You focus smart on 
executing well the apparent elements within it that you've already created, but also 
evalute whether something's missing in any of the category that you need to focus 
on in the composition itself. One actually NEVER finishes a composition, one only 
ABANDONS it, you just have to know WHEN...
- Be aware of the times you're living in, the sounds you're exposed to, do consider 
what people like, but also what they might have forgotten, and create accordingly, 
be like a bridge between the past & the all-possible future...
- Connect to your surroundings: Encourage sharing your music not so much for 
appreciation, but valuable criticism, from people who are themselves well exposed 
to vast different kinds of music. With time & expertise, you should have the right to 
include even YOURSELF in that list...
- Go where you think you might fail, and see what happens, apprentice in that...
- Do NOT underestimate the value of "letting go", allow for any serendipitous events 
into your life, and go with the flow, be like water ("you know who said that, 
right?!)... 
- Always, and I mean ALWAYS pay attention to the DETAILS, even minimalism is the 
great trap in disguise, especially in well-executed "Computer Music", i think the 
score for Inception is a great proof for that...
- Be smart in selecting the knowledge that you believe CAN accelerate the process 
of creating better
- Trial & Error is the mother...
- Embrace the natural SLOW process of learning & progress in being a musician, just 
as much as the painful aspects of it. 
- Learn to love the process, but also BELIEVE x1000, affirm & re-affirm to yourself 
to your most SUBCONSCIOUS stubborn fiber that you're transorming yourself 
"EVERY DAY" through the process, that you're getting every day closer & faster to 
what's in your creative heart's content ("i sure need to do that myself")...

- Be aware of things also like -Make the skills & the technology serve you, not a lack 
of skills that makes it the other way around- ... 

While learning your craft and well after:

- Believe, and trust each time in your well-earned self-judgement to estimate 
whether your own composition is good or not...

- Do NOT be afraid to WANT to leave something of VALUE on this Earth, when you're 
gone, you have to be your harshest critic and want to offer something fresh, not always new, but REAL...

Then (for the outside world, it would be things like)...
- Expose your work ethic, everything that this implies is that you speak through 
your work...


- "Write something so undeniably compelling that it can't be ignored" -- Hans Zimmer

- ALWAYS pay deep gratitude to your mentors, whoever, whatever & wherever they are...

MERCI Mr. Zimmer for this last quote, this is really something to remember which really summarizes the distance between the EGO composer who despairs for attention and keeps on bypassing the process of mastery / from the PRO composer who has developed a much more free-flowing attitude, gets things done, cares about his collaborators, filmmakers & audience and so rightfully makes things come to him "the right way", through real, truthful and generous abundant "laser-beam" creation... 

Alexandre S.


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## Danielo (Feb 25, 2014)

_....he then goes on to tell you how amazing he is and that I should totally let him borrow my mobile phone so he can have composer x's phone number because his friends told him he should be working for him....now imagine this scenario every day XD Like I said, I am not seeking sympathy, nor am I angry/annoyed at these people, its just tiresome. I imagine there are a few others reading this thread who have experienced similar! _

Actually, its often happened to me (not in the same way of course!) and many people I know in the "non-musical" world when they find out what profession you are in (a previous poster gave an example of many fields where this is common - Doctor, Lawyer, etc.) but we generally don't get the opportunity to complain about it on forums that are read by people who are not in the profession...the people who would read said forums would have experienced this themselves and call this "whining"  

Perhaps the only difference is that I don't have to tell people what profession I am in (do you?) - I stopped telling most people years ago. You meet "unstable" people in life all the time (trust me, I have seen my share), but there is not much you can do about that. Frankly, I am surprised that you get "recognized" in the street as I don't see that you are striving for the "Miley Cyrus" type of exposure . No doubt "Celebrity" is a stronger magnet for such unstable people 

Hopefully this doesn't come off as being negative - just an opinion "from the other side". It's great that you have the patience that you have with these people, it really is, but I am also glad that you are not looking for sympathy...

Best Wishes


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## lux (Feb 25, 2014)

rJames @ Tue Feb 25 said:


> lux @ Tue Feb 25 said:
> 
> 
> > I want Ron's stars. Now.
> ...



haha, yeah, remember that, not sure it was NS, I think it was here on vi-control. Maybe Choco.

EDIT also recall when we all were after a warning here. Only a few of us got one though.


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## impressions (Feb 25, 2014)

Alex the reason for those massive spams and excited mails because they think they can work for your company.
they are composers who think they are good enough, but with not enough self conscious to know they aren't.

unfortunately for you, it won't stop, because there are too many like that, and their numbers will not decline.

the army of zombie composers without velcoity and mod wheels are on the loose!!!

I just wouldn't answer them, its not like you are missing composers, you have enough for the next few years.


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## EastWest Lurker (Feb 25, 2014)

impressions @ Tue Feb 25 said:


> the army of zombie composers without velcoity and mod wheels are on the loose!!!



Not to mention the army of zombie composers _with_ velcoity and mod wheels and think that if they only use them with the right libraries, that is enough, who are on the loose!!!

I will only say that it is "epic"


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## impressions (Feb 25, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Feb 25 said:


> impressions @ Tue Feb 25 said:
> 
> 
> > Not to mention the army of zombie composers _with_ velcoity and mod wheels and think that if they only use them with the right libraries, that is enough, who are on the loose!!!
> ...



"if you can't beat them, buy them."
-----zombie composer with top libraries speaking of competing with real composers.


i wonder where do they get the money for those libraries if they aren't that good?


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## Waywyn (Feb 25, 2014)

Tone Deaf @ Tue Feb 25 said:


> But "rock star" status, coupled with the availability you invite via social networking avenues, also includes intrusion on your time, and inappropriate demands on your time. I can absolutely understand that this would be tiresome. But unfortunately, it's part of the package.



For me personally I don't have a problem with that, but see it as a guy writing an email to a language specialist in one full block without punctuation marks and many typos, asking for a job! .. even better, promoting himself as a renowed specialist already!

If this happens to you over a period of years and you find it important to feature the upcoming composer youth, you should be allowed to once in a while stand up and post a few things which 90% of the time happen.

I am aware that one could ignore all this, but honestly everyone ask yourself. What a world would this be if we simply ignored all the things which don't take us forward?!


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## AlexandreSafi (Feb 25, 2014)

AlexandreSafi @ Tue Feb 25 said:


> Thank you Alex Pfeffer for starting this thread, in my view this is VERY important subject to talk about! Your post is really thoughtful and can only come from a deep place of honesty!
> 
> Ahh the old-age issue of the EGO!
> The ONE key to Self-destruction & Mass destruction in the social web of life...
> ...



Gary Vaynerchuk - "Get Off Your Ass & Get Noticed": An addition to my own previous post in this thread, the actual value of social media. 
2 links:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BT_vv5moEm8
http://www.amazon.com/Gary-Vaynerchuk/e/B001JP7NBE

At the 44-min mark, the video addresses an issue that Alex Pfeffer & Daniel James talked about, the misinformation about the realistic behaviour to have when using social media... 

Thanks for reading
Alexandre S.


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## The Darris (Feb 25, 2014)

I've read the initial post and some of the responses on here. Here is my 2-cents on this subject.

A lot of Alex P's words are very true but also very subjective from person to person. For instance, I am an "aspiring composer" who is trying to get my foot in the door but I am also learning. I try to be 100% honest about my tracks. Most of my work on a single track (1-1:30 minutes) takes me about 12-15 hours of work on over the course of a week, when I have time between school and family. That being said, I know I am far from a master but I also get a piece to sound the best to my ears and ability. Sure, it could always be better but that comes down to experience and understanding how to utilize your libraries (like Alex mentioned). 

On the other hand, given that I probably am one of those that Alex is ranting about, because I fall into his criteria, I don't learn or gain experience the way he does. For me, I do better in an on-the-job training situation. Working with someone who knows what they are doing and seeing techniques utilized is how I flourish. When I started watching some of Mike Patti's early screencasts, my cues drastically got better. That being said, I am trying to get my foot into the "bizz door" for the main reason of getting better and learning as much as I can on how to apply my skills and get better at them. 

Yes, practice is what I need which I do everyday. Since I am in school, I spend most of my inbetween class times writing out music via transcription paper or on Sibelius via my laptop. I average around 5-6 minutes of new music sketches a week. However, applying these to the virtual orchestra and mock-up world is difficult for me. I've written music since I was 13 (27 now) but I didn't start writing with VI's until 2 years ago when I first discovered them. I am behind the power curve obviously. 

Okay, so my post has been spent mostly trying to justify why I feel that I am one of "those" people Alex is ranting about but in my particular situation, I am really trying hard to be good. Music is my life and passion and I wouldn't have spent the time, money, and life trying to do this if it didn't mean this much to me. I don't want to be the next Hans, I just want to make music that will inspire others to love music just as much as me. That has been my mission from the beginning.


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## Waywyn (Feb 26, 2014)

The Darris @ Wed Feb 26 said:


> I've read the initial post and some of the responses on here. Here is my 2-cents on this subject.
> 
> A lot of Alex P's words are very true but also very subjective from person to person. For instance, I am an "aspiring composer" who is trying to get my foot in the door but I am also learning. I try to be 100% honest about my tracks. Most of my work on a single track (1-1:30 minutes) takes me about 12-15 hours of work on over the course of a week, when I have time between school and family. That being said, I know I am far from a master but I also get a piece to sound the best to my ears and ability. Sure, it could always be better but that comes down to experience and understanding how to utilize your libraries (like Alex mentioned).
> 
> ...



Dear Darren,

Do you share stuff just for the sake of getting it out?
As I can read from your post. No! Because you said you get a piece to sound the best to your ears and ability!

Do you spent around 3 hours and also use that as an excuse because you had to go to sports/party/whatever?
No, because as far as I can read you spend around 12-15 hours on a track!

Where in my full post did I write that I am ranting about people who gain experience slower than me? This seriously surprises me! What gave you the intention to think that I would demolish people having a slower learning curve?

Do you try to get your door in the bizz and promoting yourself as a renowed/most wanted/very experienced/whateevryouwannapick composer?
I assume no, because you sound very humble about how you describe yourself!

You seem to have passion about what do you, but in my initial post I perfectly described the kind of people who are just trying to get their feet in the bizz door no matter the cost.


I even took the time and reread my initial post, to not accidentally pick something which I have written later as a comment! 
Why do you think this post is about you? As far as I can read it is all perfectly clear that I am not aiming to willing, learning and eager people out there, but to the ones I described in my initial post


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## emid (Feb 26, 2014)

Actually, Alex, the message coming out from your first post is probably different than what you are summing up by replying to anyone who tries to defend himself or gives a counter reply. That's why people are becoming more protective of themselves in their reply and you have to chime in everytime to clarify.

You actually wanted to say this,



Waywyn @ Tue Feb 25 said:


> This article is NOT aimed towards musicians asking for help!
> This is aimed toward new and the typical aspiring composer who is promoting himself more than actually caring about his own work. It is aimed towards people who are trying to get a foot in the door as a professional composer but don't even know how to operate the very essential things of MIDI and compose for the sake of sharing! Clear now?



But it turned out in this way; remove the 'NOTs' and use NOT instead of 'is' whereever required lol :mrgreen: 



Waywyn @ Tue Feb 25 said:


> I *am *[strike]NOT[/strike] frustrated. I *am *[strike]NOT[/strike] angry. This *is *[strike]NOT[/strike] a bash [strike]but[/strike] ...*(NOT)* more of a waking call to all the people out there who are trying at all cost to get into business (and then probably ask themselves after a few months of trying, why it didn't work out).



Anyways, as many say, you have done tutorials on a media which is even handy on any smartphone, even on Chinese phones, that's why they send you their work for correction or advertisement with hopes that you might help them in whatever they want from you. For some you are a tutor, a mentor and for others you are a first step to enter in the business. 

But I do wanna say something here keeping in mind I am entirely from a different profession and I am satisfied, satiated of my earnings. I take music and try to make music as my recreational activity, a hobby and want to do my utmost best for the satisfaction of my own alone and none or nobody else. I visit this forum to collect pearls from a vast ocean of knowledgeable people like you. But I remember my first post ended up in a bizarre manner when a "PRO" bashed me like I am taking away his work from him. I remember I dared to put my work on this forum where most of the PRO's (or they love to be called as Pros') never showed their work but still they are Pros respectfully. I have recently asked a very interesting question and from those Pros, you are the only one who replied (you remember about percussion thread?). Where are those masters with extended knowledge and why don't they help 'aspiring' musicians with their experience and knowledge? Then who is left? You and Daniel James, I tell you. Because you are approachable. You are willing to help. You distribute what you know and for free. In this way it is sensible to say you guys are doing really wonderful job and all aspiring musicians should be thankful to you and DJ. Now having said that, the scenario is different imho. I think you should direct your grudge towards those pros and learned people to come out and heal this suffering human race of aspiring musicians with their healing power. In this way you will have less responsibility. But who wants to share the power? Hmmm... This is a vicious circle and you are trapped inside it o[])


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## The Darris (Feb 26, 2014)

Waywyn @ Wed Feb 26 said:


> Dear Darren,
> 
> Do you share stuff just for the sake of getting it out?
> As I can read from your post. No! Because you said you get a piece to sound the best to your ears and ability!
> ...



First thanks for the response, secondly; It appears that I have misread your initial post (I tend to do from time to time when I read a post that is somewhat ranty, or in your case just blatantly honest.) 



> Do you share stuff just for the sake of getting it out?
> As I can read from your post. No! Because you said you get a piece to sound the best to your ears and ability!



I might be misinterpreting your meaning by this question but I have a soundcloud that I post my finished work on and share with the public. In some cases, I share WIPs that I am excited about to stir some interest. I have shared this same soundcloud with selective composers in hopes to get feedback or even a foot in the door. No luck whatsoever but I have gotten feedback which was mostly positive. (funny story, one composer said I need to invest in better samples....I used CineBrass, BWW, Sable, Albion on the particular track. :oops: ) < Learning experience and proof that good sample libraries don't make a GOOD track. Which is something your post tends to have an undertone about. I get your perspective now.



> Where in my full post did I write that I am ranting about people who gain experience slower than me?



You misread my statement (poorly written before I went to sleep). I said that I don't gain experience the same way you do (I was only talking about me and nobody else). My point was geared more towards how I learn and how we all mostly learn differently. A lot about what makes a piece of music 'good' can be subjective from listener to listener. That being said, your post, after reading it a second time, comes off now as being more specific to some situations. My apologies for misreading you and responding to the likes of that.

I am a fan of your's. I discovered your videos the same time I did Mike Patti's so in my initial read through, my pride was a little hurt. :oops: Feeling like I was one of 
those people you were talking about, made me get defensive which is a huge weakness of mine. Thanks again for your response, I can tell this is something you are very passionate about which makes for very productive discussions as well as a huge learning experience for me. Thanks.

-Chris (you can still call me Darren if you want.. :wink: )


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## Waywyn (Feb 26, 2014)

emid @ Wed Feb 26 said:


> Actually, Alex, the message coming out from your first post is probably different than what you are summing up by replying to anyone who tries to defend himself or gives a counter reply. That's why people are becoming more protective of themselves in their reply and you have to chime in everytime to clarify.



Thanks Emid and also Chris for your reply!
To be honest Emid, I really took care of rereading my initial post, taking care to not hurt anyone directly and even - according to the precious feedback made in here - I change some stuff to make it even more clear.

I would say the fact that people get upset is simply, that they either missread and overread stuff or - in the worst case - not read at all, but just the topic line and the first few lines and think they know were it is heading to.


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## G.R. Baumann (Feb 27, 2014)

Alex,

I used to be a professional instrumentalist, not anymore since many years, but let me bring another example instead.

I worked my ass off to learn and master the art of photography and printing my own work. It was a rough ride really, I mean imagine a guy who never had anything to do with photoshop - back in the days, today you do not need photoshop at all if you do photography - sitting in front of a computer with somehow above average computing sklills and being confronted with a compendium about the software that reads less interesting than a phone book. I had days where I was short before to throw the monitor out of the window! 

This was painstaking work and I am not even starting to talk about the art doing fine art prints, but trust me it is the same level.

Years later, after I won competitions and had myh own exhibitions selling my work, I was always asked by aspiring photographers about the secrets.

Secrets? Nope, they wanted to know short cuts, quick fixes, a button to press on their camera and their printer and of course the sound of a cash register attached.

In their despair about my answers, I am a blunt guy at times, they got defensive stating that they do no have access to the first class and hugely expensive equippment that I used, hence they would only succeed once they have access to all these tools.

Now some of them ripped out an arm and a leg to buy these tools, but hey.... They did not find the fucking button that says "push for world class fine art results".

:lol: 

Bottom line, work your ass off and do it with bloody PASSION, if you don't, stop bitchin at me for not knowing this Gallery owner or that Magnum Photographer, for not having the latest and greatest tools, and for sure don't ask me for contacts. 

It's work you know, and it's painful, you will suffer, and you will have fun, but it is not painting by numbers, it remains bloody work!

Sorry for ranting, but you spoke the truth Alex and I experienced the same from a different perspective often enough.

Best
G


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## AC986 (Feb 27, 2014)

G.R. Baumann @ Thu Feb 27 said:


> I worked my ass off to learn and master the art of photography and printing my own work. It was a rough ride really, I mean imagine a guy who never had anything to do with photoshop - back in the days, today you do not need photoshop at all if you do photography - sitting in front of a computer with somehow above average computing sklills and being confronted with a compendium about the software that reads less interesting than a phone book. I had days where I was short before to throw the monitor out of the window!
> 
> Best
> G



People always tell me I'm a good photographer.

I always tell them I'm not.

But I am a great editor.

8)


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## germancomponist (Feb 27, 2014)

I agree with Alex`s posts 100%! Nothing to add!


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## BKSchatzki (Feb 27, 2014)

YES!

I did this once (overreacted to a facetious offer of a job,  smiley and all) and sent a long obsequious PM to a composer who shall remain nameless. I was self-deprecating and verbose.

It left the most bitter taste in my mouth. I realized after just one attempt at *ahem "networking" that I was being a total moron. If I felt the need to be obsequious then my work doesn't speak for itself. And it doesn't; I still have almost the entirety of the skill-taste gap to close. There's no leverage in "having sung opera as a boy soprano." Feeling the need to mention that was an indication I was flailing in hopes of hitting something.

I'm glad to read at least learned my lesson. I'm gonna keep posting my crappy stuff on my own channels, but I'm not ready to solicit anybody just yet.

I haven't read the whole thread, so I assume I'm not the first in my position to say something like this, but if I am: If you do this or have done it, you should feel terrible, like I still do when I have to bring it up! I don't even know how some people can shamelessly continue.


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## AKR (Feb 27, 2014)

I appreciate your rant. People are so sloppy, lazy when it comes to producing music, but then, they spend most of their time spamming everyone with their half assed productions. I see people whip out a poorly composed track for a contest in a couple of days, and they spend the rest of their time spamming everyone with it. Sadly, most people that need to hear this feedback from you will probably not read it because they are too lazy to really learn how things work. It's easy to copy and paste your spam to everyone, but not so easy to bother properly composing a track and reading up on the do's and do not's of the business.

Fine with me, though. Less real competition for the rest of us. btw, what's your email address? (KIDDING, don't shoot me)


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## Inductance (Feb 28, 2014)

Alex, great post! Sometimes, some "tough love" is in order. It's for the best!

In no way am I an expert composer, even though I've been at it for several years now. But I think I've gotten better over the years. Also, reading posts on this forum from working composers, from every walk of composing-life, has really opened my eyes about what it takes to be good at this craft, and it has shown me what they expect from themselves. 

Once I realized that, whenever I'm working on a piece, and especially when I'm adding the finishing touches, I've learned to ask myself two questions...

- Is this the best I can make it?

and...

- If it's not the best, am I willing to do what's necessary to make it the best it can be? 

These are not easy questions to answer, because they require a brutally honest look at myself, my skills, my habits, etc. What is it about my workflow that I can change? Am I spending enough time each day on my music? Am I spending QUALITY time on my music? Have I spent enough time on the libraries I'm using, learning the ins and outs? Can I dedicate some time to music theory study? I've realized that I usually have to keep working on all of the above and more, a little bit at a time. 

As a rule, I DO NOT post or upload any "works in progress" for the general public to listen to and critique. Just my personal opinion, of course, but I'd rather get critique on a finished work, on the best I can accomplish at that time. (My wife is the only person lucky enough to listen to my works-in-progress, and she is always just thrilled, thrilled!) It's just that I know that even my finished works will probably have flaws that expert ears will pick up on. If they're going to find flaws, I want these flaws to be the result of my amateur, or advanced amateur status. I DON'T want these flaws to be there because of my laziness, or because I rushed through a project, not caring for the nuances.

So again, Alex, thank you for your rant! It's always a good thing to be reminded of these things, and it helps set me and keep me on the right track!


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