# What is it about the internet?



## dcoscina (Oct 12, 2010)

It's really a pity that regardless of the forums I visit, there's always some threads that devolve into mud slinging and name calling, resulting in banning and locked threads. I know this is somewhat of a sensitive topic but I am curious if it's the relative security and anonymity that breeds the occasional aggression or whether it's some more deep rooted, something endemic to our species and moreover gender. Not even considering the testosterone a hormone that is linked to aggression, could it be how we are socialized to be competitive? At the end of the day, are we not so much removed from the Darwinian "natural selection".

It indeed is an interesting thing to posit given that this forum is dedicated to artistic pursuits rather than sports or some area of interest that one would normally expect a degree of spicy repartee and vitriol. Music is normally one of the few avenues that brings happiness and joy to people but there isn't one music forum I frequent where a proverbial fist fight doesn't break out over heated feelings about composer X or film score Y. 

I also wonder if this is not more symptomatic of the way our society is de-evolving. Look at the mass media and you will see a plethora of negative imagery, scandals and tragedies propped up in technicolor and flooding almost every tv network. PBS is one of the few stations that still endeavors to maintain the aire of civility and a higher learning aesthetic. 

I find it very interesting that there is barely any infrastructure of respect in North American society. In its good intentioned attempt at avoiding alienating individuals, the system here seems to have empowered anyone to the point where there is no regard for authorities or people with more knowledge, experience, etc. This is clearly seen on this forum where semi-pros or even amateurs are arguing pragmatics with seasoned pros- guys who make their living at writing music. I'm guilty of this myself and of late have tried to rectify this as a touch of humility never did anyone wrong (you will notice some of the most gifted, amazing composers are very humble and soft spoken individuals).

The reason I'm touching on this is that I study martial arts and in the dojo there STILL remains a hierarchy system wherein you MUST show deference to those above you. To be perfectly honest, I find this comforting and grounding. It's nice to know the parameters and it breeds more respect and greater learning when one opens themselves up to recognizing that they aren't the be-all and end-all at something. But this concept is largely antiquated and it's not surprising that most people who start martial arts drop out because of the rigid condition of mind and body. People want instant gratification and getting back to the topic at hand, sometimes gratification can be stomping on someone's opinion because there are no ramifications (immediate would be a physical reprisal).

I know I haven't kept this topic too focussed but I wanted to hear what other people think about this. I have ONE REQUEST though. If you wish to participate, PLEASE KEEPS THINGS ABSTRACT. Meaning, I don't wish for this thread to go down in flames where people are insulting others. Please keep it centered on your frame of reference. That's my wish. Hopefully we can get an interesting dialogue started about some of these musings.


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## P.T. (Oct 12, 2010)

More and more, lately, I am coming across this in face to face conversations.

Maybe it's an influence from how people act on the internet.

It's amusing, in a sad way, that when people are openly abusive, if you respond in kind they tend to get indignant that you would talk to them like that.

I think the internet problem stemmed from anonymity, but now people are getting used to acting like that and it is starting to become common behavior.

You mentioned the media.

I have come to the point where I don't watch TV or movies at all.
Truly, the TV has not been on in 7-8 years and it's been that long since I have subjected myself to a movie.


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 12, 2010)

Internet gets out the worst of people (me included).


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## lux (Oct 12, 2010)

dont undervaluate the language problem. I feel over 50% of issues on boards is due to the fact we are all speaking a non native language (for some). Sometimes US and UK based people tend to assume that everyone has the ability to read and get the sense of jokes and many forms which are typical of english language.

The main issue i commonly see is "are you serious?". Its very hard to get that as some language, like italian, have a wide range of words so we have clear signals that something is funny, angry or anything else as we use the proper word for it. english is much more a "compact" language where a single term has a lot of meanings, depending on the context, and sometimes depending by traditional jokes or way of telling.


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## nikolas (Oct 12, 2010)

Anonymity is one issue.

Hidding behind the screen is another.

Todays society is the third issue.


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## germancomponist (Oct 12, 2010)

lux @ Tue Oct 12 said:


> dont undervaluate the language problem. I feel over 50% of issues on boards is due to the fact we are all speaking a non native language (for some). Sometimes US and UK based people tend to assume that everyone has the ability to read and get the sense of jokes and many forms which are typical of english language.
> 
> The main issue i commonly see is "are you serious?". Its very hard to get that as some language, like italian, have a wide range of words so we have clear signals that something is funny, angry or anything else as we use the proper word for it. english is much more a "compact" language where a single term has a lot of meanings, depending on the context, and sometimes depending by traditional jokes or way of telling.



+1

Think only about my bad english/american ..... . o/~


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## José Herring (Oct 12, 2010)

Guy Bacos @ Tue Oct 12 said:


> Internet gets out the worst of people (me included).



Yep. I find that sometimes I've posted late at nigh after all day of composing then I wake up the next morning only to regret it.

On Dave's original point, I think about freedom. Internet is designed to be a free medium of exchange of information. Unfortunately, and this view is very unpopular, unlimited freedom leads to no freedom at all. If one is free to say what ever he wishes, soon the communication gets usurped by people who are ill intentioned. The "free" media is a good example. Freedom of the press is kind of in our country's dna yet for every 1 piece of good information there's 100 pieces of garbage rammed down our throats. Most of that garbage perpetuated by people that have an evil intention towards humanity.

I was looking at a bunch of bums the other day and was thinking about freedom. Soon the thought came to me and I realized that this bum is the freest person in the world. He answers to nobody, he can go wherever he wants to and do whatever he wants whenever he wants to do it. I then realized that ultimate freedom is an ultimate trap that leads to degradation and poverty. Total freedom is total non responsibility and total unaccountability for ones actions.

Jay Asher posted a good set of rules on another thread. Those rules are an attempt to put restrictions on freedom. I read them and they are good rules to follow for forum behavior.

I love this place, but at the same time it is too free. Where certain posters have free reign to bash everybody and everything. I've long since learned to ignore certain people but it's hard to ignore them all the time. Often I've extended my hand out to help somebody only to get it chopped off and told that I'm a fool. Often I've looked to see the credentials of the person who's chopping me to bits and more often than not they have none.

Some people can self moderate really well. Others will not. I think the trick being a moderator in this kind of forum is to distinguish between honest criticism from those who may have a conflicting opinion, and the criticism from somebody who's only intent is to harm.

It's tricky. But unless it's done every thread will degenerate into worthless vitriol, which unfortunately happens on just about every thread here. To the point that on most threads I don't even make it past the first 3 or 4 responses, before some stupid jerk says something that makes me tune the whole thread out.


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 12, 2010)

lux @ Tue Oct 12 said:


> dont undervaluate the language problem. I feel over 50% of issues on boards is due to the fact we are all speaking a non native language (for some).



50% ??

I can't agree with that. I've been on the internet for a while now, have spoken to friends all around the world having to deal with the language issue, and on times some may not have been comprehensive right away, and even that is rare. But it was never in the way of a good communication, at worst unclear (Don't understand! Huh? What do you mean?) but never something to trigger anger. If this was in real time, like a phone call or face to face, I could understand it more, but people have time to prepare what they want to say on forums or emails. At least this is my experience. I think other issues should be more stressed.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 12, 2010)

josejherring @ Tue Oct 12 said:


> unlimited freedom leads to no freedom at all. I



Fantastically well said Mr. Herring!


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## lux (Oct 12, 2010)

Guy Bacos @ Tue Oct 12 said:


> lux @ Tue Oct 12 said:
> 
> 
> > dont undervaluate the language problem. I feel over 50% of issues on boards is due to the fact we are all speaking a non native language (for some).
> ...



no. 

It hasnt to do with us non native speakers to talk. Its a matter of understanding, not just writing. Many times funny jokes arent understood by us europeans. I speak with buddies from a long time and still i happen to get them to explain me things as i dont get the sense at all. 

Also, when writing, a non native speaker can result verbose, annoying and too serious. But its just that he doenst know how to express a part (often the most brilliant/funny one) of his/her attitude with different words than their own language.

I think its pretty easy to understand and experiment for everyone. Expecially when your relations arent just formal stuff but you have good friends and you like having fun with them.

Angryness is triggered by the fact you dont get a joke. Sometimes just that you don get the sense of a post. I have, as example, serious problems reading Mike Verta's posts as theyre soo long and articulated, not exactly an easy ride for a non native speaker. Same goes for Jason (kid-surf) and other good writers.

But sure there are other things which are supposed to trigger angryness...uh


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## synergy543 (Oct 12, 2010)

Interesting question... 

Today I was thinking about how discussions on this forum (or all others on the internet I've ever seen) differ from those that might've taken place in a French Cafe 100 years ago among a group of composers. Composers apparently met with each other and even critiqued each others works (sometimes rather harshly) but they did not apparently attack each other physically or with outrageous verbal diatribes or slanderous smear campaigns. Why were they able to interact over coffee and have critical discussions with good will and tolerance where we don't seem to be able to via the internet? Yet, the tools and resources we have today are nothing short of amazing! Is so cool that I can wake up and communicate with someone on the other side of the world about something we both share a deep interest in. And via e-mail it works. But not quite so well in public forum.

There is actually a live meeting of composers in L.A. organized by Ron Jones where they get together and discuss about Ravel orchestrations. Apparently its a huge success and people get inspired and excited meeting and discussing with each other.
http://www.filmmusicmag.com/?p=6118

So why can't that happen in this virtual forum? So many of us are interested in the same topics and its an interesting group of characters. Yet, something is different from the Ravel meetings. Does the internet draw a different group of characters?

At a live meeting, would someone actually stand up and slam another member with character assassination and all the dredge he could possibly dig up on the internet?

Is it the $25 cover charge?

What is different?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 12, 2010)

Good thing I don't use my real name, or I'd really be a dick.


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## George Caplan (Oct 12, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Oct 12 said:


> Good thing I don't use my real name, or I'd really be a dick.



everybody knows youre really paul krugman


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## dcoscina (Oct 12, 2010)

Some good thoughts gents. I do agree part of this is the evolution of society and not totally the fault of the digital age. It seems like there is more ID and less Ego and Superego at work here, and why not? Years ago, our ids were moderated by restrictions (this is kind of in line with Jose's idea of freedom)- restrictions in what you could get away with in school, what you could get away with at home, demands and responsibilities put upon us (I'm over 40 BTW). In this day and age, feeding out ids is easy. iTunes allow us to download our music instantly. Credit Cards allow us to buy merchandise that would take us months if not years to save up for. Our appetites for consumption are that greater all of it giving us instant gratification. Some people spend many many years working hard at a discipline and during that journey have probably endured harsh criticisms but they learn to take that in stride. Nowadays, anyone with $$ or credit can buy Symphobia or whatever, throw together something very basic but it sounds halfway good to them but when they post it on a forum, and it deservedly gets criticized, they throw a proverbial tantrum or use it as ammunition for a future opportunity to savage a fellow forum member.

Perhaps the real culprit here is entitlement. Having so much has given us this false sense of what we are entitled to. We feel we are entitled to "speak our minds" because the main tenant of North American society is "free speech". However, this seems to be a thin veil rationalization for some to bully and hurt others. 

I would submit that it wouldn't be such a bad thing for forums in particular to have filters and moreover rules that govern the verbiage of a post. I know VI Control Index filters out bad language but there are work-arounds to that. 

I know some would find this infringement on their civil liberties to be shocking but if we continue to feel no compunction about moderating our behavior, I do think that we'll see more and more incidents where aggressive or demeaning behavior extends far past the sanctity of our computer havens....

We can be a species capable of such greatness but also great nightmares. Sorry, I paraphrased that badly from Contact...or Superman. One of the two. Sadly it does hold true. Getting off my soapbox now 

p.s. I'm not immune myself to these charges BTW. Hopefully taking stock will help me to think more about how and what I communicate in the future.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 12, 2010)

[quote="dcoscina @ Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:16 am"

Perhaps the real culprit here is entitlement. Having so much has given us this false sense of what we are entitled to. We feel we are entitled to "speak our minds" because the main tenant of North American society is "free speech". However, this seems to be a thin veil rationalization for some to bully and hurt others. 

[/quote]

Another gem of a comment!


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## lux (Oct 12, 2010)

sometimes i wonder if you guys would ultimately prefer an all american forum. 

At times i have this feeling but could be wrong.


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## lux (Oct 12, 2010)

Guy Bacos @ Tue Oct 12 said:


> Lux, did you understand re-peat's colorful post?
> 
> Sorry, that was too tempting.



no i havent seen it, it was deleted. I've read just the part quoted in another post. 

I perfectly remember though your posts when you called me a troll and wanted to kick me out every time we had different opinions. I also recall you were doing polls everywhere and each time someone pointed out that maybe the questions were obnoxious you actually expressed pretty bad reactions.

I also recall your first time here when a thread praising your work derailed by your pretty bad reaction to some negative comments and all the fuss it generated.

I know people evolves. I think you evolved your staying here as well smoothing out some aspects. still the early months of your stay contributed in my vision to raise the conflictuality on this forum.

I'm not innocent. I never claim to be. I would love hearing that as well from buddies and people i talk with as i think its a fair game to play. THAT would reduce conflictuality.

Luca


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 12, 2010)

I know Luca, you subtly remind me on just about every one of your comments to me. That was a long time ago. Geeze! Get over it! And don't forget, it takes 2 to tango....


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## lux (Oct 12, 2010)

I'll do. I would also love reading a word from you to moderators in help of a member which couldnt not get over it, lost control but has still many things to say here. And got a too long ban for that. That would mean something to me, for what it worths.

Luca


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 12, 2010)

Luca, I seriously think you should let it go and move on. Stop dwelling in the past....


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## JohnG (Oct 12, 2010)

lux @ 12th October 2010 said:


> sometimes i wonder if you guys would ultimately prefer an all american forum.
> 
> At times i have this feeling but could be wrong.



one of the main reasons I like v.i. so much is that it's NOT an all-US forum. I feel that there are stylistic and other habits that differ quite substantially across oceans and borders, and they are extremely beneficial.


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## lux (Oct 12, 2010)

Guy Bacos @ Tue Oct 12 said:


> Luca, I seriously think you should let it go and move on. Stop dwelling in the past....



I kinda expected this reply. My istincts are still good it seems..


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 12, 2010)

lux @ Tue Oct 12 said:


> Guy Bacos @ Tue Oct 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Luca, I seriously think you should let it go and move on. Stop dwelling in the past....
> ...



I really don't know what you want from me Luca. What is it you want???


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## bryla (Oct 12, 2010)

Isn't this something you should take on PM?


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 12, 2010)

bryla @ Tue Oct 12 said:


> Isn't this something you should take on PM?



I totally agree, if Luca has something he wants to tell me, regarding him and I, and it seems so, he should be telling me this through PM.


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## lux (Oct 12, 2010)

I'm all ok with you, Guy Bacos.

back to how forums have bad times due to changes in our North American society..


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 12, 2010)

lux @ Tue Oct 12 said:


> I'm all ok with you, Guy Bacos.



Sure fooled me.


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## synergy543 (Oct 12, 2010)

With google and the internet, we seem to live forever. Any thing you've said or done, or any door you've ever peeked into remains on record for posterity.

Yet, in real life, we're humans. We make mistakes. And life goes on.

It doesn't do much good to bear grudges indefinitely. We can all dig up a flaw in each other somewhere on the internet, or hidden deep in some forum from years past.

So why not start each day and each thread a new? Why not give other users a chance to redeem themselves? o/~


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## synergy543 (Oct 12, 2010)

Alternatively, we could have a *Western Brawl Bar*, and an *Duel Room* where you can go and post all the dirt and sludge you wish. Any accusation or bad thing you have to say has to be said or moved to these threads. And you can invite your enemies there to battle. The rest of us can vote. The one who loses gets banned for a week. 

*The catch is*, it takes two to battle. So the bar could be full of mud slingers if you don't follow them inside this special thread room. This way, we can see who the mud slingers are. And no battles need actually take place, as it takes two to fight.
>8o 0oD 0oD >8o


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## Ashermusic (Oct 12, 2010)

JohnG @ Tue Oct 12 said:


> lux @ 12th October 2010 said:
> 
> 
> > sometimes i wonder if you guys would ultimately prefer an all american forum.
> ...



+1, even though Euros are all a bunch of pinko commies. 

JUST KIDDING! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D


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## Hannes_F (Oct 12, 2010)

lux @ Tue Oct 12 said:


> in help of a member which couldnt not get over it, lost control but has still many things to say here. And got a too long ban for that.



FWIW I wrote a private message to that member expressing that it was not right to single out one person with his comment since it applies to us all more or less (in case anybody thinks this is not true ... I am not so sure). And that his comment was not good because it could not be understood in that situation and therefore was not helpful, which is a strong criterium why something should be posted, not only because something is perceived as 'true' or as relieving.

On the other hand - if we put away all personal engagement for a moment even if that may be difficult - he touched a point that might be essential. I mean, we _might _have the next Beethoven somewhere among our forum members. I am not meaning somebody in special but really, if you think about it, where should such a composer be attracted to if not here? But do you think that this person could then concentrate on his art (and I mean art here, not craft which is a given in such a case), could he produce a similar oevre that expresses humanity at its best ... if he were involved in a lot of personal feuds which eat up his attention and make him angry?

In that way I understood that post very well - but under the explicit condition that it should not be directed towards a single person - that we need to tame our ego if we want to fly. I think in order to be the best composer we can be we need to be like Rabbi Aquiba in the Talmud who entered in peace and went in peace.

I know somebody (hi Jay  will chime in here in a minute and say (rightfully) that composing is mostly about craft and you don't need any special inner or spiritual strength in order to score for an ad or a feature film besides shouldering your workload and honing your social abilities. All fair, however I always understood that at least some have other ambitions (including Guy but also others), so if these aspects are at least being touched once in a while in an appropriate way it might be considerable.


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## synergy543 (Oct 12, 2010)

+1

Excellent points Hannes.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 12, 2010)

Hannes_F @ Tue Oct 12 said:


> I know somebody (hi Jay  will chime in here in a minute and say (rightfully) that composing is mostly about craft and you don't need any special inner or spiritual strength in order to score for an ad or a feature film besides shouldering your workload and honing your social abilities. All fair, however I always understood that at least some have other ambitions (including Guy but also others), so if these aspects are at least being touched once in a while in an appropriate way it might be considerable.



All true for commercial composing (as opposed to concert hall composing). 

That said, I like to think that if I were scoring a film with an inspiring story that maybe my artistic and spiritual qualities would come more to the fore. I was frequently quite moved by the picture when I was composing for "The Legacy of Laura Ingalls WIlder" DVD and Dean Butler, the producer-director, said the music brought tears to his eyes at times, so maybe my work was a little more elevated. But that is for others to decide, not me.


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## Hannes_F (Oct 12, 2010)

Ah, Jay, all the better, thanks.


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## nikolas (Oct 12, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Tue Oct 12 said:


> Hannes_F @ Tue Oct 12 said:
> 
> 
> > I know somebody (hi Jay  will chime in here in a minute and say (rightfully) that composing is mostly about craft and you don't need any special inner or spiritual strength in order to score for an ad or a feature film besides shouldering your workload and honing your social abilities. All fair, however I always understood that at least some have other ambitions (including Guy but also others), so if these aspects are at least being touched once in a while in an appropriate way it might be considerable.
> ...


If I may chime in for a second here.

Concert hall composing is also mostly about craft and not about inner or spiritual strength...


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 13, 2010)

Well, FWIW I find VI Control much better overall than other forums I've been on (music-related or otherwise), but absolutely - text and anonymity can be a pretty horrendous combination.

As well as composer and sound designer, I write. It's kinda depressing to see the printed word (or electronic equivalent) get twisted so often, and I'm at least partially talking about myself. Here's a thing... if writing a script, I will always, always go to multiple drafts, up to 30, 40, 50. Draft 1ò*‰   ëYÚ*‰   ëYÛ*‰   ëYÜ*Š   ëYÝ*Š   ëYÞ*Š   ëYß*Š   ëYà*Š   ëYá*Š   ëYâ*Š   ëYã*Š   ëYä*Š   ëYå*Š   ëYæ*Š   ëYç*Š   ëYè*Š   ëYé*Š   ëYê*Š   ëYë*Š   ëYì*Š   ëYí*Š   ëYî*Š   ëYï*Š   ëYð*Š   ëYñ*Š   ëYò*Š   ëYó*Š   ëYô*Š   ëYõ*Š   ëYö*Š   ëY÷*Š   ëYø*Š   ëYù*Š   ëYú*Š   ëYû*Š   ëYü*Š   ëYý*Š   ëYþ*Š   ëYÿ*Š   ëZ *Š   ëZ*Š   ëZ*Š   ëZ*Š   ëZ*Š   ëZ*Š   ëZ*Š   ëZ*Š   ëZ*Š   ëZ	*Š   ëZ
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## lee (Oct 13, 2010)

I think there´s a strength in ignoring what irritates you. If there´s a thread where people start insulting eachother, I just skip to the parts where people write in a more polite and humble way. Or if all hell breaks loose in a thread, just ignore the whole thread and start a new one.

It´s like a fire. If you start preaching or whatever about how bad others have behaved, you just fuel the fire, and the discussion (probably off topic from what the op started) gets more infected. Better to send a private pm to the person.

Edit: Perhaps this is my swedish "afraid of conflicts"-way of handling internet. But I think it works most the time.

Though we live in a consumerism-based world, where consuming information has evolved alot through internet, you dont have to consume/read everything.

/Johnny


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## Jaap (Oct 13, 2010)

bryla @ Wed Oct 13 said:


> Ashermusic @ Tue Oct 12 said:
> 
> 
> > +1, even though Euros are all a bunch of pinko commies.
> ...



not true! In the netherlands we are PINK weed smoking commies!

On topic: I think I agree with Lux here that not being a native speaker can bring a lot of confusion to the topic. Somethimes it is hard to express yourself in a good manner. It can be interpreteted (jeez spelling :D) as harsh, not civil while the true intension might be different. Also it can be hard indeed to get the right understanding of jokes etc.

Another factor which is causing problems is irony and sarcasm. I like to be ironic now and then, but written irony in a language that is not your native language is going to be often very problematic.

I like the VI community. In fact it is basically the only forum where I am really active. I don't post that much, but I like to read a lot here. What I like here is that from most people you know who they are. They show their own names and that gives a more connected feeling. Also by posting under my own name I tend to be more "carefull" since this is a community in your own working field. If I would go beserk I could possibly harm my own name since this world is actually small and you never know how that can be used against you in your working future.
Not saying you can't have different opinions, but more the way you are going to handle them. Instead of calling somebody a rotten fish (while you might think that somethimes :mrgreen: ) you better can take some distance and find a better way of saying you don't agree (Asher made a nice list somewhere else).

What I dislike is anonymous posters. People who hide behind a name and you have no idea where they stand, who they are and therefore you can't get a grip on them. It puts you in a fragile and uneven situation when it comes to a discussion since I am the one exposing myself and the other is a sort of wall with a voice coming from behind it. In a community like this where you exchange a lot of information regarding work, ideas etc I find it a pro if I know whom I am dealing with. It is a different case if you post on forum for lets say World of Warcraft players.


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