# Replacements for R4 and Nimbus reverbs post-EOL



## Justin L. Franks (Oct 28, 2022)

Now that most of Exponential Audio's plugins are being EOL'd by Izotope, I need to start looking for replacements. Namely for the R4 and Nimbus reverbs. I could manage with just an R4 replacement, but it would be nice to have something along the lines of Nimbus as well.

I'm not in any huge rush even though I'm on a Mac, as I am running Catalina at the moment and will be upgrading to Monterey very soon now that Catalina is EOL, and both run on Monterey. I never use the latest version of MacOS unless there is a new 'killer feature' that is truly evolutionary; I wait until my current version goes EOL (which coincides with a new release), then install last year's version. But I think it is best to switch ASAP since reverb is so crucial for us.


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## liquidlino (Oct 28, 2022)

Neoverb is the direct replacement. Same algorithms as nimbus and R4 apparently. 

Valhalla vintage room is an r4 alternative. 

Hans Zimmer swears by cinematic rooms by liquidsonic, but mostly because of surround capabilities I think. 

Lx480 from relab just got updated and on special, that's what r4 is based on, the original lx480 hardware.


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## elucid (Oct 28, 2022)

Given the unparalleled tweakability of - and algorithm designer built into - MTurboReverb, perhaps you could create your own soundalike reverbs?

And it's half price for another two days (almost):

https://www.meldaproduction.com/MTurboReverb (no affiliation - just a happy customer)


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## KEM (Oct 28, 2022)

I’m a big believer in Cinematic Rooms and will always sing it’s praise


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## cedricm (Oct 28, 2022)

I intend to continue using Exponential Audio's reverbs until they don't work anymore.

Neoverb may use the same algorithms but most R4 parameters are not available. So unless you're happy with the presets or the assistant, it's frustrating.

I'm hoping for a great BF sale for Cinematic Rooms.


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## vitocorleone123 (Oct 28, 2022)

I replaced R4 with Cinematic Rooms Pro and TaiChi. Nimbus with TaiChi, but only partially. I don't have another reverb as "airy" but I'm OK with that (SonsigA may be in the neighborhood). HD Cart, as well, for R4. I'm all in on Liquidsonics (I only work in stereo) - but I don't love Seventh Heaven or Illusions.

I disliked Neoverb - maybe the same algos, but it didn't work well for me. If you're really into the Lexicon sound, the new LX480v4 is probably the way to go. Or at least the Essentials (I got it free).

You can find the usual sales info on the last BF sale on Liquidsonics using Google. It's unlikely to be much different, if at all. Already having HDCart and Reverberate3, and then Tai Chi (all on sale), CRP was about $150 for me on sale with the loyalty discounts. That felt like downright theft, since it's the most amazing reverb my ears have ever heard.

Find the reverb your ears love and spend what it takes, ideally on sale, and don't settle.


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## Bman70 (Oct 28, 2022)

Speaking of the new Relab LX480 version 4, is that a free upgrade from 3.xx? I didn't get any notification as I usually do for updates. I just tried to sign into my account and there's no account associated with my email address anymore. Lol pretty weird.


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## jcrosby (Oct 29, 2022)

I'd imagine you're weary of continuing support for EA verbs after the EOL... That said, as stated in the email about the decision to EOL them Symphony will open presets from R2/R4, Stratus will open presets from Phonenixverb and Nimbus. These are obviously the supported options for the most accurate replacement.

Cinematic Rooms is a nice alternative, but CR definitely has its own sound so it really would depend on what you meant by _replacing_... I personally like Neoverb, and while it has a character I like, like CR it does sound quite different and some seem to not gel with the UI...


EDIT: I stand corrected on what I wrote above... There is a pretty noticeable difference. I personally found NV and Stratus to be the most similar, but still noticeably different.
https://vi-control.net/community/th...d-nimbus-reverbs-post-eol.131590/post-5207684


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## Daren Audio (Oct 29, 2022)

I use R4 to add "tail width" to Spitfire Audio Appassionata since the string release is quite short.

Any other reverb out there that can do this?


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## cedricm (Oct 29, 2022)

Daren Audio said:


> I use R4 to add "tail width" to Spitfire Audio Appassionata since the string release is quite short.
> 
> Any other reverb out there that can do this?


Not sure if it can do what you want to do, but I really like Nugen Audio's Paragon, a hybrid reverb. It's adjustable in very interesting ways and it sounds fantastic to me.

The only downside is that you can't use your own IRs. It's understandable given the resynthesis needs I guess.
But Nugen added IRs and I'm hoping they'll continue to add some over the years.
You can test it for free.


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## doctoremmet (Oct 29, 2022)

Bman70 said:


> Speaking of the new Relab LX480 version 4, is that a free upgrade from 3.xx? I didn't get any notification as I usually do for updates. I just tried to sign into my account and there's no account associated with my email address anymore. Lol pretty weird.


It is, I received a notification last tuesday and found V4 was already in my Relab account - ready for download. For free.


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## cedricm (Oct 29, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> It is, I received a notification last tuesday and found V4 was already in my Relab account - ready for download. For free.


Does the Relab plugin sound better than Best Service's Lexicon 480 pack for Hall of Fame?


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## gedlig (Oct 29, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> That said, as stated in the email about the decision to EOL them Symphony will open presets from R2/R4, Stratus will open presets from Phonenixverb and Nimbus. These are obviously the supported options for the most accurate replacement.


They say it's a direct replacement, but it really doesn't sound like it to me. Here's an example of the same preset in R4 and Symphony (Med Far Plate, 35% mix). To me, Symphony just doesn't sound right. Same thing comparing the same presets in Nimbus and Stratus. Something about these newer ones makes the reverbs too bright, metallic (?) and more jagged (for lack of a better term) than R4 and Nimbus.

Edit: added Nimbus and Stratus (Neutral Hall preset)

Edit 2: inserted the files into the post.

Dry:
View attachment Cerberus dry.mp3
R4:
View attachment Cerberus R4.mp3
Symphony:
View attachment Cerberus Symphony.mp3
Nimbus:
View attachment Cerberus Nimbus.mp3
Stratus:
View attachment Cerberus Stratus.mp3


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## doctoremmet (Oct 29, 2022)

cedricm said:


> Does the Relab plugin sound better than Best Service's Lexicon 480 pack for Hall of Fame?


I think the latter are impulse responses? So in terms of control I think the Relab one offers more control. How that translates to the sound I don’t know as I haven’t used the Best Service pack.


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## thorwald (Oct 29, 2022)

Reverb is always a tough subject for me, I am extremely picky when it comes to choosing the right one in general, based on the sound. But of course it also depends on what your ears like, what fits your material, as well as how deeply are you planning to customize your reverb.

The reason why I mention all this is because even though there are loads of high quality reverbs out there, nothing comes close to the sound of a Bricasti M7, thus Seventh Heaven when you need a realistic space. It's not algorithmic, so strictly speaking it's not a direct alternative, but it allows more customization due to its Fusion IR. It's the most transparent-sounding reverb I've ever heard (and I've spent hundreds of hours testing almost every reverb plugin I could put my hands on).

An algorithmic alternative to this is the recent Savant Audio Labs release, Quantum 2772 Evolution. It's also not as customizable compared to high-end algorithmic reverbs, but it is very natural-sounding, similarly to the Yardstick model which it is inspired by. Very transparent, although sometimes you need to tweak the high frequencies and the density, especially with percussion.

Cinematic Rooms is also a great algorithmic alternative, but I found it has a bit more build-ups compared to Seventh Heaven, as well as being brighter and lighter on the low-end.

Valhalla reverbs are amazing for their price, but they can be a bit sizzly and grainy compared to the previously mentioned plugins.

For less realistic reverbs, similarly to R4, Neoverb might work better, though I recommend Relab's LX480 instead. You will get a lot more customization out of it.


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## cedricm (Oct 29, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> I think the latter are impulse responses? So in terms of control I think the Relab one offers more control. How that translates to the sound I don’t know as I haven’t used the Best Service pack.


Indeed, 96 KHz 32 bit float true stereo and stereo impulse responses - about 90 each for the Lexicon 480 pack.
There are a few basic parameters, but probably less than in the Relab Plugin:


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## chopin4525 (Oct 29, 2022)

The Quantum and VSS4 are the only plugins that come close to the quality of Nimbus or R4 but they hardly cover all the possibilities the second ones are capable of. I really have a hard time thinking of a true substitute. Neoverb is simply the unwanted son who was supposed to inherit the legacy of both but it seems like the genes skipped one generation.


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## Aldunate (Oct 29, 2022)

I am not mad at the loyalty prices for Stratus and Symphony.(49 and 79)


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## AudioLoco (Oct 29, 2022)

Lexicon PCM, VSS4, VSS4, Cinematic Rooms and Seventh Heaven are all great options although R4 does have something different about it that makes it almost always work really well with most sources...


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## vitocorleone123 (Oct 29, 2022)

thorwald said:


> Reverb is always a tough subject for me, I am extremely picky when it comes to choosing the right one in general, based on the sound. But of course it also depends on what your ears like, what fits your material, as well as how deeply are you planning to customize your reverb.
> 
> The reason why I mention all this is because even though there are loads of high quality reverbs out there, nothing comes close to the sound of a Bricasti M7, thus Seventh Heaven when you need a realistic space. It's not algorithmic, so strictly speaking it's not a direct alternative, but it allows more customization due to its Fusion IR. It's the most transparent-sounding reverb I've ever heard (and I've spent hundreds of hours testing almost every reverb plugin I could put my hands on).
> 
> ...


Definitely subjective. To my ears, Seventh Heaven is one of the most obvious reverbs, so heavy and almost fake it changes the original sound. Very much an effect, and nowhere near transparent. I don’t really like it. CRP is so much better to my ears, and so much easier to configure.


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## easyrider (Oct 29, 2022)

Lexicon PCM…

just instantly stops any GAS for more reverbs…


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Oct 29, 2022)

cedricm said:


> Indeed, 96 KHz 32 bit float true stereo and stereo impulse responses - about 90 each for the Lexicon 480 pack.
> There are a few basic parameters, but probably less than in the Relab Plugin:


An insider's story:
I trained this German man back in 2008 or so during long phone calls on how to make impulse responses. Then it turned out that he had nicked all the folder and filenames from my then Impulse Libraries (which I had given him for free). When I received his first libraries, I was thus, ehm, not so pleased with him copying my ideas. But after analysing his IRs, I was glad that at least he had made quite some beginner's mistakes.
Note: I am now even more "opinionated", because this is a plugin and I am also going to release a competitive product. And 96 kHz with a 480: using a lot of CPU for convolving nothing.


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## vitocorleone123 (Oct 29, 2022)

easyrider said:


> Lexicon PCM…
> 
> just instantly stops any GAS for more reverbs…


And start GASing for supported versions, just like R4 and Nimbus!


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## thorwald (Oct 29, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Definitely subjective. To my ears, Seventh Heaven is one of the most obvious reverbs, so heavy and almost fake it changes the original sound. Very much an effect, and nowhere near transparent. I don’t really like it.


We all like what sounds great to our ears , so there's nothing wrong with disliking particular Plugins of course, but admittedly, this is not something I hear often. ☺️

I wonder if this perceived fake effect sound is due to SH's darker nature, as well as the way it handles low frequencies.


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## vitocorleone123 (Oct 29, 2022)

Daren Audio said:


> I use R4 to add "tail width" to Spitfire Audio Appassionata since the string release is quite short.
> 
> Any other reverb out there that can do this?


Pretty sure all/most Liquidsonics reverbs can, in that you can turn off early reflections and then make the tail wider with the knob for that. If I'm understanding you correctly, that is.


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## sostenuto (Oct 29, 2022)

Serious Home Studio commitment here, with R4 and Nimbus ( some Valhalla, bx_rooMS, misc ).
Simply not comfy with cost of quality Reverb(s) mentioned previously. Will continue with existing R4, Nimbus, and hope for notable BlkFri deals for most touted options.


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## SupremeFist (Oct 29, 2022)

Voxengo Sobor is extremely good. (For my uses it replaces Nimbus, while for R4 I am good with 7H and VVV.)








Natural Stereo Reverb Plugin [VST, AU, AAX] - Sobor - Voxengo


Stereo reverb effect plugin. Produces a wide palette of reverb sounds requiring only a minimal effort from the user. Great on just about any sounds and instruments, including bass. Lush, natural, and wide reverb tails.




www.voxengo.com


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## vitocorleone123 (Oct 29, 2022)

sostenuto said:


> Serious Home Studio commitment here, with R4 and Nimbus ( some Valhalla, bx_rooMS, misc ). miscellaneous.
> Simply not comfy with cost of quality Reverb(s) mentioned previously. Will continue with existing R4, Nimbus, and hope for notable BlkFri deals for most touted options.


Money is real, and it isn't always available, let alone available for plugins. 1000%. I'm also a home studio person doing this as a passion/hobby.

I was really uncomfortable spending $150 on a reverb (I've rarely spent over $100 on any single plugin of any kind). But I'd been doing careful demos of several reverbs and found the one for me that made me say, "that's the one" - in a way no other reverb has to date. So I acquired another two reverbs on sale (HD Cart and TaiChi) I liked a lot even though I knew they'd not be my default after testing them - and they'd give me a future discount if I went ahead with it, and waited for the best price possible on Cinematic Rooms Pro, which has always been the Black Friday sale. I only got the Pro version because I heard a difference from the Standard, and wished I didn't, since then I think it'd have cost about $100, instead.

And I did it, spending the $150 or so. And have spent exactly zero time regretting it. In fact, I regretted buying several of the reverbs over the last couple of years (not R4 and Nimbus even though I like CRP better - the only regret from those 2 was the fact they literally pained me... I spent about $150 total for those 2 reverbs about 6 months before iZotope started killing them), compromising on quality for cost. If CRP hadn't been the best reverb my ears had heard, I would have stuck with HD Cart and TaiChi and not spent the money. If CRP isn't the best reverb you've heard, I don't think I'd recommend getting it just because it's available.

I do wish I'd sold off more of my other plugins before the bottom fell out of the market.


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## sostenuto (Oct 29, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Money is real, and it isn't always available, let alone available for plugins. 1000%. I'm also a home studio person doing this as a passion/hobby.
> 
> I was really uncomfortable spending $150 on a reverb (I've rarely spent over $100 on any single plugin of any kind). But I'd been doing careful demos of several reverbs and found the one for me that made me say, "that's the one" - in a way no other reverb has to date. So I acquired another two reverbs on sale (HD Cart and TaiChi) I liked a lot even though I knew they'd not be my default after testing them - and they'd give me a future discount if I went ahead with it, and waited for the best price possible on Cinematic Rooms Pro, which has always been the Black Friday sale. I only got the Pro version because I heard a difference from the Standard, and wished I didn't, since then I think it'd have cost about $100, instead.
> 
> ...


Taking this to heart _ while hoping for clarity by BF _ now < 30 days away. THX !


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## Daren Audio (Oct 29, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Pretty sure all/most Liquidsonics reverbs can, in that you can turn off early reflections and then make the tail wider with the knob for that. If I'm understanding you correctly, that is.


Thanks, I'll check out Liquidsonics.

_It was late last night so not sure if I was articulating correctly:_
Basically, Spitfire Appassionata has the baked in reverb but the reverb tail is short and dies out fast. 
R4 adds more reverb tail so it sounds more like a natural release versus an abrupt one.


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## Rubens Tubenchlak (Oct 29, 2022)

I like Aether...Unfortunately also without a future


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## jcrosby (Oct 29, 2022)

gedlig said:


> They say it's a direct replacement, but it really doesn't sound like it to me. Here's an example of the same preset in R4 and Symphony (Med Far Plate, 35% mix). To me, Symphony just doesn't sound right. Same thing comparing the same presets in Nimbus and Stratus. Something about these newer ones makes the reverbs too bright, metallic (?) and more jagged (for lack of a better term) than R4 and Nimbus.
> 
> Edit: added Nimbus and Stratus (Neutral Hall preset)


Admittedly, I assumed Symphony & Stratus (the two EA reverbs I don't actually own) encapsulated all of EA's algorithms based on the way they worded the email... They definitely sound different in your examples, and after installing the demo this afternoon, importing some of my own presets, and trying myself there definitely is a pretty noticeable difference... And agree, Symphony sounded funky in your example. I was able to dial out the ringy-ness, but it still sounds quite different... (More so than Stratus).

What I hear is that the shape of the reverb bloom, decay, and the tail density are all different. There's another thing that stands out about EA's reverbs compared to some other standbys I AB'd against, they have a prominent reflection that's part of the bloom that gives the impression that there's more of a 'wall' behind things... Neoverb was the most similar out of the reverbs I compared, but like Stratus and Symphony it's still different... (Not to mention that I'd imagine some people's initial response is to write off Izotope entirely after discontinuing these...)

As I said in my initial reply, it really depends on what 'replacing' them means... It's more a matter of finding reverb(s) you like as much, while appreciating the differences...


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## Beat Kaufmann (Oct 30, 2022)

thorwald said:


> ...An algorithmic alternative to this is the recent Savant Audio Labs release, Quantum 2772 Evolution. It's also not as customizable compared to high-end algorithmic reverbs, but it is very natural-sounding, similarly to the Yardstick model which it is inspired by. Very transparent, although sometimes you need to tweak the high frequencies and the density, especially with percussion...


It's interesting how much is said about reverb plug-ins and how little they are compared (their sounds).

The tool "Quantum 2772" simulates a reverb device from the early days - with all its disadvantages. The algorithms are exactly taken over and therefore - if you don't need it that way - outdated. If you listen to this reverb plug-in without the nice GUI, you probably wouldn't choose it... 

Example Fabfilter Pro-R
Example Quantum 2772 (completely static decay (vintage, pretty? natural?)

--------------------------------------
Example Breeze 2
Example Quantum 2772 (Echoes on decay. Vintage..., do you want such a sound for orchestral mixes?).
--------------------------------------
I don't mean to say that the plug-in is bad, no it simulates a reverb effect, from the early days - and quite authentically.
Quantum 2772 is therefore - in my eyes - no alternative to today's modern plug-ins, especially when it comes to reverb tail decay. The 2772 is probably a good choice if you want to add reverb to music that sounds like it's from its time. 
Beat


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## Henu (Oct 30, 2022)

I have the Lexicon and LX480. I'd love to love the LX more because the Lexicons are a bit unreliable (buggy) at times but I just can't dial it to sound as good, lush and an _actual extension of the sound_ the way Lexicon does it.


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## WhiteNoiz (Oct 30, 2022)

@Beat Kaufmann 

Out of curiosity, which one would you pick in the attached comparison? (Maybe you don't like either of them, but assuming those were the choices)
View attachment verbex1.mp3


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## Henu (Oct 30, 2022)

I'm not Beat but the last one by a mile.


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## chopin4525 (Oct 30, 2022)

Beat Kaufmann said:


> It's interesting how much is said about reverb plug-ins and how little they are compared (their sounds).
> 
> The tool "Quantum 2772" simulates a reverb device from the early days - with all its disadvantages. The algorithms are exactly taken over and therefore - if you don't need it that way - outdated. If you listen to this reverb plug-in without the nice GUI, you probably wouldn't choose it...
> 
> ...


Even the Lexicon has flaws and artifacts: there is nothing natural about a chorusing tail on orchestral movies but everybody swears by it and we've grown accustomed to the point it's a standard today in the music industry. Never used the Quantum on piano or strings because it doesn't sound right to me but if I try it on brush drums, guitars or even an acoustic bass it brings quite a nice flavour that I hardly have with any other plugins. You could also try it on some Rhodes to have instant magic. Those are the things where I think it shines the most and where I would recommend reaching for it if you don't want to use a plate. At least for the genres I've tried in so far..


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## ptram (Oct 30, 2022)

I got Neoverb just to be sure I've a license when R4 expires. But I admit I'm liking it very much! The timbral quality "lives in the same space", and the different parameters might even be an evolution of the original concept.

However, they are not exactly interchangeable. If I'm not wrong, for example, contrary to R4 there is no way to create reverb drones in Neoverb. It would be great if they added it.

And I think I will continue using VSL MIRacle. It's not, as for the default settings, as lush as a Lexicon-like reverb. It is more a very transparent reverb, à-la-Bricasti, but there are several parameters to play with (starting with Density).

Paolo


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## fakemaxwell (Oct 30, 2022)

gedlig said:


> They say it's a direct replacement, but it really doesn't sound like it to me. Here's an example of the same preset in R4 and Symphony (Med Far Plate, 35% mix). To me, Symphony just doesn't sound right. Same thing comparing the same presets in Nimbus and Stratus. Something about these newer ones makes the reverbs too bright, metallic (?) and more jagged (for lack of a better term) than R4 and Nimbus.
> 
> Edit: added Nimbus and Stratus (Neutral Hall preset)


I did a quick dig on this, because I've shot it out before. The early reflection engine in Symphony looks to be quite different than R4, and I think that's where most of this is coming from. Some of the presets match very well, and others sound very different.

For what it's worth- Symphony sounded better in every case I could find, except for the examples you posted haha. I would just use Symphony in your new projects and don't look back.


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## Russell Anderson (Oct 30, 2022)

Neoverb is not like Nimbus/R4. With the "Smooth" option enabled, it's better, and for layering reverbs in parallel for depth, it's a better workflow, but it offers nothing new, removes parameters, and offers no specific predelays for each algo which is also important for parallel layers for depth.

It also removes the reverb tail attack slope (??!?!) and ER/LR tap filter (what used to be visualized by a red tint in Nmbus/R4). And, the entire Warp panel, which took me such a long time to warm up to but then I actually loved reducing the bit depth to 12/14 bit and driving it really hard with Trim, reducing the gain in Warp trim, 0 high-crossover passthrough. Now I make do with Tai Chi's awesome bit-parameters, which also sounds amazing, and can be transparent or characterful.

I can't say anything about Symphony or Stratus / 3D, haven't tried them. Except guessing they're probably of course the closest.

Relab's VSR S24 and LX480 are probably also good candidates for Nimbus and R4 respectively. VSR S24 has some great early reflections and a beautiful transparent sound. It even offers interesting modulation options, quite a few of them in fact... hopefully they'll finish their re-release of it as the REV6000 including all of the parameters and in a better layout than the last REV6000 layout I tried (just stick VSR S24, minus a few parameters, in a blender, and you get REV6000). I probably don't have to say anything about the 480.

Cinematic Rooms does sound different but with some EQ it can be darkened a bit to come closer to Nimbus' very diffuse tail. Contrary to some opinions, yes, you can certainly make Cinematic Rooms sound bad if not paying attention to high frequency decay time/filters (their filtering interface, especially in the redundancies that exist in Tai Chi/CRP (and with it being knobs) could certainly be improved). Nimbus' tail is very pretty indeed! But the early reflections are a bit more tricky to dial in as you have to watch out for/tune the comb filtering, not something you have to worry about in CRP as they're phase-correlated.

I personally love the Quantum. Amazing depth and dark tone, but not for every source. You may find yourself at extreme settings re: very short high frequency decay times and minimal density (great parameter though!) with probably an 8khz cutoff in order to achieve the desired sound. One of my top 2 favorite transparent reverbs. I pretty much use that or CRP for everything transparent. There was already blood in the water for Nimbus so I've pretty much made use of CRP for everything I needed nimbus' level of control for. Almost everything is there and the sound is amazing, especially the early reflections.

reverrrrrrrrrrrb


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## Beat Kaufmann (Nov 1, 2022)

WhiteNoiz said:


> @Beat Kaufmann
> 
> Out of curiosity, which one would you pick in the attached comparison? (Maybe you don't like either of them, but assuming those were the choices)
> View attachment verbex1.mp3


None of the 3 offered. But honestly, I can say little about the respective reverb quality with the chosen music example... You would have to choose examples with abrupt closures so that you can hear the tails nicely. Here the tails sound out together with the direct sound of the instrument.
Look here: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/reverb-plugins-tail-comparison/index.php


This Type of Tail I like.
This Type of Tail is not to my taste.

Beat


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## LinusW (Nov 1, 2022)

Neoverb is utter crap. I’ll keep R4 for as long as possible, but I use a lot of Relab Sonsig Rev-A like I use R4. I have but I don’t use Nimbus because I have Relab LX480 and others.


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## Beat Kaufmann (Nov 1, 2022)

The fact that new reverb effects are still coming out almost daily shows that the ultimate effect is not yet on the market. And so everyone has his sweetie and swears of course by his product or its products. That is very OK.

My basic recommendation is to test out more with examples that challenge the reverb effects to see if a reverb really sounds as good as you can read everywhere.
If you like for example the static fade out (tail) of the Enventide SP2016, then it is OK. The important thing is that you know how it sounds, not just how people worship the plug-in on the Internet.

I myself use about 3-4 different reverbs in my daily work, depending on the task (Push instruments into the depth of the concert hall - without tail / Add tail to solo instruments - without pushing them into the depth at the same time / Add some more tail to a whole orchestra or sound recording).

All the best
Beat


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## thorwald (Nov 2, 2022)

Beat Kaufmann said:


> The tool "Quantum 2772" simulates a reverb device from the early days - with all its disadvantages. The algorithms are exactly taken over and therefore - if you don't need it that way - outdated. If you listen to this reverb plug-in without the nice GUI, you probably wouldn't choose it...


It's actually not the exact algorithm, at least according to their FAQ: https://savantaudiolabs.com/faq/

But you are right in saying that it closely simulates the hardware, with its quirks.

Whether it is outdated is another question. I personally think that as long as it sounds good for what you use it for, and you can overcome its quirks, it shouldn't be considered outdated. And because you mentioned that nobody talks about the sound of a reverb, my opinion is, for what it's worth, that for the most part modern reverbs can sound worse. Does that mean that those modern reverbs are outdated? Certainly not.

To me, a Bricasti sounds marginally better than 99% of the reverbs out there, software or hardware, and it's from 2007.

It's very rare though that one reverb will give you the exact sound of another, no matter if it's in software or hardware (especially in hardware), so these suggestions are by no means direct replacements.


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## Beat Kaufmann (Nov 2, 2022)

thorwald said:


> ...
> 
> To me, a Bricasti sounds marginally better than 99% of the reverbs out there, software or hardware, and it's from 2007...


Dear Thorwald
A little further up I said that above all there is a lot of talk about reverbs instead of proving with examples what one claims. A few threads later you now bring exactly such a claim again:
"Bricasti sounds better than 99% of all the reverbs..." such statements I hear since the first unit came out. But I never heard actual Bricasti results compared to recognized good other reverbs.

Therefore: I would like to hear please how the tail fades out (preferably 5 seconds please) with my three test files. Please produce such 5s-examples - otherwise I see your statement as another empty assertion (99%...?). Thanks in advance!

About Bricasty and other expensive Effects
Of course I understand that if someone pays ~ 8000 € together with the remote control for such a Bricasti-Equipment, that he thinks and believes his reverb sounds better than 99% of all other reverbs. But then it is still to be determined what "better" means. If a Quantum 2772 (PlugIn or Hardware) has a static tail or shows echoes on a bass drum, then that's probably obvious that this is more an effect for special cases and not THE ultimate reverb-tool.
But to compete against an Acon Reverb with its airy Vivid Algorithm or a B2 of the company 2CAudio (probably no longer exists) and other good plugins will not be very easy even for a (10-20x as expensive) Bricasti. One must not forget: Also in a Bricasti is only calculated, A/D and D/A converted and those algorithms have their age... In any case, I am curious about your examples and looking foreward to them.

Beat


----------



## thorwald (Nov 2, 2022)

Beat Kaufmann said:


> Dear Thorwald
> A little further up I said that above all there is a lot of talk about reverbs instead of proving with examples what one claims. A few threads later you now bring exactly such a claim again:
> "Bricasti sounds better than 99% of all the reverbs..." such statements I hear since the first unit came out. But I never heard actual Bricasti results compared to recognized good other reverbs.
> 
> Therefore: I would like to hear please how the tail fades out (preferably 5 seconds please) with my three test files. Please produce such 5s-examples - otherwise I see your statement as another empty assertion (99%...?). Thanks in advance!


Dear Beat

Unfortunately, I do not have access to a Bricasti unit at the moment, so please feel free to regard my subjective (as stated above) opinion as "another empty assertion (99%...?)". I base my "claims" on hundreds of hours of testing and blind testing reverbs (software and hardware, including a Bricasti M7). I use my ears as my main senses 24/7, so hearing detail is super important to me. For these reasons alone, I would think that my assertion is, although subjective, quite valid. But please feel free to think otherwise. I am not here to convince you, you are the one who is going to use what you purchase after all. This is why I always emphasize that what I say is subjective. Just like with sample libraries, or with anything else really.

On the other hand, since I'm happy to oblige, I would be more than happy to produce whatever tail you like upon receiving an M7 unit ☺️

There are comparison threads on this forum, which feature both Seventh Heaven and a Bricasti, compared to other reverbs. Spitfire has made reverb comparison videos. These may or may not help you decide if you like what you hear. Savant Audio Labs also made a comparison with a Bricasti, with different materials at 

reverbs can react to materials in different ways. Percussion is notoriously hard to put in a convincing space, so I am not surprised that the Quantum needs a bit of tweaking to avoid this, nor should it be something that blemishes the overall sound of the reverb.
In other aspects, I think the Quantum, outdated or not, comes really close to a Bricasti, but that's for a different topic.

Mind you, you are absolutely right, there needs to be a definition for what "better reverb" means, similarly to what an "outdated reverb" is. Michael Carnes and Exponential Audio released R2 back in 2013, and 6 years later, it was used in a movie (that we know about).



Beat Kaufmann said:


> Of course I understand that if someone pays ~ 8000 € together with the remote control for such a Bricasti-Equipment, that he thinks and believes his reverb sounds better than 99% of all other reverbs.


I hope you are not suggesting that all the studios, and individuals such as Mitsunori Aizawa prefer a Bricasti over other reverbs because of the amount of money they paid for it. The entertainment industry would be a pretty sad case for it.



Beat Kaufmann said:


> But to compete against an Acon Reverb with its airy Vivid Algorithm or a B2 of the company 2CAudio (probably no longer exists) and other good plugins will not be very easy even for a (10-20x as expensive) Bricasti. One must not forget: Also in a Bricasti is only calculated, A/D and D/A converted and those algorithms have their age...


Aging is not really a huge concern, as to my knowledge, the M7 units are still being manufactured today. But please let me know if I am wrong.

In general, I do believe that recreating anything that already exists is great, but it would have no value unless the creator looked into how it would differ from said existing thing. What could be improved, or changed that would make the new creation better. Improving, versus reinventing the wheel. This is why the Bricasti M7 was created, to improve on reverb units and do something that neither of them could do at that time. This is discussed in this video, which gives a bit of an insider look: 

This all doesn't matter, however, if the reverb sounds bad. And whatever anyone says, you are the one who decides in the end.


----------



## vitocorleone123 (Nov 2, 2022)

Very subjective!

As a passionate hobbyist, it's useful to know that if Seventh Heaven and the Quantum reverb (and the Bricasti Fusion IRs in Reverberate 3) sound very close to a Bricasti, then that it's not a reverb I'd ever want to have. Either getting a sound I love out of it would be beyond me (maybe, but I'm not an ignorant reverb lout), or I just don't enjoy the sound of it. Or both.

That sound is among my least favorite of reverbs I like, just a step up from metallic reverbs. So I don't hate it or anything, but it's more tolerable than enjoyable.

I'm sure I've heard it many a time in movies etc. without knowing it, but that doesn't mean I'd want to use one myself.

Percussion doesn't need to be used to compare reverbs (though I think it should be part of the toolbox) - plucked synths and strings or short horn stabs can also be used. As well as longer sounds to hear if/how the sound builds up in the tail once released (I usually shorten release times so they're tighter but not abrupt when comparing). I've yet to hear anything that handles the overall sound, especially early reflections, better than Cinematic Rooms Pro.


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## sostenuto (Nov 2, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Very subjective!
> 
> As a passionate hobbyist, it's useful to know that if Seventh Heaven and the Quantum reverb (and the Bricasti Fusion IRs in Reverberate 3) sound very close to a Bricasti, then that it's not a reverb I'd ever want to have. Either getting a sound I love out of it would be beyond me (maybe, but I'm not an ignorant reverb lout), or I just don't enjoy the sound of it. Or both.
> 
> ...


Passionate daily hobbyist for decades. Can only hope for BlkFri super deal for Cinematic Rooms !! 🙏🏻
Pro simply above and beyond, even at impossible promo.  😢

Have not seen (or missed) comment on NI /Softube RC24 & RC48 in terms of 'Spaces' reverbs.
Do these fall in a 'comfortably usable' rating category ?? 

Living with R4, Nimbus, Valhalla Plate, Relab - LX480 Essentia, bx_rooMS for now. l


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## Markus Kohlprath (Nov 2, 2022)

Russell Anderson said:


> .Relab's VSR S24 and LX480 are probably also good candidates for Nimbus and R4 respectively. VSR S24 has some great early reflections and a beautiful transparent sound. It even offers interesting modulation options, quite a few of them in fact... hopefully they'll finish their re-release of it as the REV6000 including all of the parameters and in a better layout than the last REV6000 layout I tried (just stick VSR S24, minus a few parameters, in a blender, and you get REV6000). I probably don't have to say anything about the 480.


What is it with Relabs VST S24? It's not on their website anymore AFAICT. It's my go to for general reverb purposes. Do you know anything about it?


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## thorwald (Nov 2, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Very subjective!
> 
> As a passionate hobbyist, it's useful to know that if Seventh Heaven and the Quantum reverb (and the Bricasti Fusion IRs in Reverberate 3) sound very close to a Bricasti, then that it's not a reverb I'd ever want to have. Either getting a sound I love out of it would be beyond me (maybe, but I'm not an ignorant reverb lout), or I just don't enjoy the sound of it. Or both.


I think as frustrating as choosing the right reverb can be, it's part of the process of finding what you like and what would contribute to your "sound". This is why there are so many opinions out there. A lot of people still like the sound of a Lexicon, for example, even though there is material that it does not work well on out of the box. It preceded and inspired many reverb units and plugins, its sound is not my favorite. There are lots of expensive hardware units, like the TC 6000 which also fall into this category. The more it can be narrowed down, the better.



vitocorleone123 said:


> Percussion doesn't need to be used to compare reverbs (though I think it should be part of the toolbox) - plucked synths and strings or short horn stabs can also be used. As well as longer sounds to hear if/how the sound builds up in the tail once released (I usually shorten release times so they're tighter but not abrupt when comparing). I've yet to hear anything that handles the overall sound, especially early reflections, better than Cinematic Rooms Pro.


This also depends on what the reverb is used for. For example, are there certain frequency ranges that are emphasized with a given material, how detailed the tail should be, how much buildup is tolerable, are there any muddy frequencies (especially in the low-mid range), etc.

For an overall sound, I believe that the more varied the test material is, the better. Here, Michael Carnes, for example, talks about how one can end up listening to more badly recorded material than good recordings when working on a reverb (R2 and Phoenix in this case):


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## thorwald (Nov 2, 2022)

Markus Kohlprath said:


> What is it with Relabs VST S24? It's not on their website anymore AFAICT. It's my go to for general reverb purposes. Do you know anything about it?


It's apparently being crossgraded to the REV6000, which is more of an 1 to 1 emulation of the TC 6000, according to https://gearspace.com/board/music-computers/1359682-what-happened-relab-vsr-s24-2.html


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## Beat Kaufmann (Nov 2, 2022)

thorwald said:


> Dear Beat
> 
> Unfortunately, ...
> Savant Audio Labs also made a comparison with a Bricasti, with different materials at.
> In other aspects, I think the Quantum, outdated or not, comes really close to a Bricasti, but that's for a different topic...


Thank you for all your comments dear Thorwald.
I'm going to bow out here after this reply here.
Since the Bricasti appeared about 15 years ago, we hear daily how great it is. Since then this has been repeated 1000s of times in forums like this. When you hear the same thing over and over again, you believe it over time. Even if it sounds good, it doesn't mean that others sound as good.
Bricasti is even careful not to publish even a small demo on their own website. Today the company lives better from all the repeaters "Bricasti is the best" (or at least 99% .
-------------------------------------------
That the various companies naturally only show sound examples with their products, which bring them close to "references", is probably clear. At the end it is then said that "Quantum 2772 comes close to the Bricasti".
Only once again for repetition:
- This is how the Quantum 2772 fades out sound. Totally static - just like it sounds in a church...
> another reverb
- This is how the 2772 fades aut the sound of a piece that ends with a hit...
< another reverb

Hopefully the Bricasti sounds better - even if the 2772 sounds very similar.
================================================


*Actually, I didn't want to offend anyone here.* *I just wanted to recommend better to do some tests how a reverb unit sounds under different conditions than to believe nice words about it.*
Already tomorrow new reverb effects will appear on the market, which promise us "the blue of the sky" and prove this of course with selected examples. This is how statements are made like the one about Quantum 2772 "how close it comes to Bricasti"...

Quickly play my 3 test files with a longer tail 4-5s and you know how a new plug-in is to be classified.

Beat


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## thorwald (Nov 2, 2022)

Beat Kaufmann said:


> Since the Bricasti appeared about 15 years ago, we hear daily how great it is. Since then this has been repeated 1000s of times in forums like this. When you hear the same thing over and over again, you believe it over time. Even if it sounds good, it doesn't mean that others sound as good.


I really don't understand what you are trying to justify. I have made a subjective observation about the Bricasti, and made suggestions for what OP requested. I have clearly indicated what my observation about the Bricasti is based on, which is not marketing, which I honestly couldn't care less about, nor is it about beliefs.
If you don't trust my observation, which you shouldn't, please feel free to do your own tests. One way or another, you will have your opinion about whether the Bricasti is just hype, or it indeed has a sound that can't be compared to 99% of other reverbs. That's what I have done too, and I am happy with the results.



Beat Kaufmann said:


> At the end it is then said that "Quantum 2772 comes close to the Bricasti".


Again, this is based on my personal, subjective, testing. It is a comparison which I have verified, because just like you, I believe that claims won't make the world go round. Actions will.



Beat Kaufmann said:


> Totally static - just like it sounds in a church...


Which is exactly what the Quantum and the Bricasti, and to an extent the Raumzeitmaschine were designed to do: simulate real spaces. Your B2 examples have modulated tails, which is not very frequent in the real world (e.g. no moving walls). I wouldn't say that modulated tails are better. Different, yes, very useful in certain situations, but they are not better. You might prefer a modulated reverb, which is perfectly fine though.



Beat Kaufmann said:


> *Actually, I didn't want to offend anyone here.* *I just wanted to recommend better to do some tests how a reverb unit sounds under different conditions than to believe nice words about it.*


No offense taken I am sure. But trust me, my "nice words" are very much based on quite serious research. I did mention this in my first post. Should you decide to do your own, thorough, research, I'd be curious to know what you find.


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## zvenx (Nov 2, 2022)

Said it elswhere.
Nimbus and R4 were my go to Reverbs, about a year ago I realised I needed to switch to things with a future..

LiquidSonics Cinematic Room (pro) and Tai Chi is where I ended and couldn't be happier.
To be honest I prefer them to Nimbus and R4, in sound, functionality, gui etc...

i am sure if Michael was still around he would have updated or came out with stuff that would still be my go to's but that ship has sailed.

Cinematic Room and Tai Chi.
rsp


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## jamwerks (Nov 2, 2022)

I use mostly 7th Heaven. I tried VSS4, and amazing how good that thing sounds for a 20-25 year old algorhythm !


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## Markus Kohlprath (Nov 2, 2022)

thorwald said:


> It's apparently being crossgraded to the REV6000, which is more of an 1 to 1 emulation of the TC 6000, according to https://gearspace.com/board/music-computers/1359682-what-happened-relab-vsr-s24-2.html


Thank you so much for the link. Have to contact the relab support. They didn't catch me with the info. REV6000 seems to be very promising.


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## Beat Kaufmann (Nov 2, 2022)

thorwald said:


> Beat Kaufmann said:
> _Totally static - just like it sounds in a church..._
> *Thorwald said:*...
> Which is exactly what the Quantum and the Bricasti, and to an extent the Raumzeitmaschine were designed to do: simulate real spaces. ...


Hi Thorwald
That is may be the real difference between our back and forth. We do not find the same tails as good tails. "static=The way it sounds in a church" was meant cynically, of course. That's exactly how it doesn't sound in a church. Or in other words: the Quantum does not at all represent the reality!

A natural sounding reverb will sound slightly different at any time. These subtle modulations occur because new reflections keep arriving at the listener, but they have taken a different way from the sound source to me as the listener than those that had just arrived before. So the reverb sounds a bit different at any time = modulation. Try it out the next time you are in a church and listen to those modulations in the tail.
Of course, this subtle modulation is the key to sounding as natural as possible. 

That's why so many manufacturers include a modulation option in their plug-ins. But simply modulate the tail a bit with a sine, that is of course not how it happens in reality. 
By the way, one of the parameters you can change in Bricasti is called "Modulation". The values are: Off, Low 1 - 9 High. This parameter controls the amount of modulation and that of the pitch variation in the later part of the reverb tail. 
--------------------------------
To all
These discussions remain just words when there are no sonic facts to compare. If I had such facts, I could replace Nimbus and R4. 

I myself provided a video comparing tails from different reverb plug-ins. Among them are Nimbus and Phoenix, which are to be replaced. You can choose one of the 14 remaining reverbs. Because I also provide the test files of the video, you can check and compair other candidates yourself. That's how I imagine it. Please deliver something but not just words and certainly not a replacement without audio results that costs 5000 Euros (sorry). So download the Testfiles check Seven Heaven, RC24, RC48 and whatever the stars are called. Publish the results here as well and each of us will be able to find his own replacement for Nimbus, Phoenix and R4 without a lot of words but by audio facts.

Bye and all the best and a lot of success
Beat


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## thorwald (Nov 3, 2022)

Beat Kaufmann said:


> Hi Thorwald
> That is may be the real difference between our back and forth. We do not find the same tails as good tails.


I honestly don't have an issue with pitch-modulated tails, as I have said before they have their use. You don't always need realistic reverbs. Lots of people can live without them, too. The B2 example you linked to has noticeable pitch modulation, which definitely does not occur in a church.

If you mean static as in you don't notice any pitch modulation, then yes, the Quantum is static. Just like a real room. But there is definitely time variation, you won't get the same reverb sound twice.



Beat Kaufmann said:


> That's why so many manufacturers include a modulation option in their plug-ins.


This really depends. A lot of reverbs still do it today to cut back on the processing power required, to make the sound appear more complex. Similarly to older hardware reverbs, they are there to get away with as few delay lines as possible, by introducing variation. This also has the benefit of masking artifacts.
This movement quite often also results in unnatural pitch variation, which is great for some things at times, but try it on a piano, for example, it won't sound great unless you are specifically after this effect.

Unless you have moving walls in a room, temperature changes, or any other factor that can change the wave length and frequency, the pitch of the sound is not going to change. You might have time variation for certain frequencies, because of reflections, which can make the sound appear as if louder, but it is very unlikely that pitch changes can be observed in a real space. It is something that is going to be constant.



Beat Kaufmann said:


> By the way, one of the parameters you can change in Bricasti is called "Modulation".


Yes, the v2 Bricasti units contain less natural-sounding spaces, which use pitch modulation too. The original v1 was made to simulate natural spaces.
You can read about why this is below, but the TLDR is that it's just for more variation, if needed. The v2 presets are quite different because of this, and in a sense they are closer to the Lexicon sound as far as modulation goes: https://gearspace.com/board/high-end/911572-bricasti-m7-version-3-0-a-7.html



Beat Kaufmann said:


> Please deliver something but not just words and certainly not a replacement without audio results that costs 5000 Euros (sorry).


There is a difference between suggestion and proof. If someone suggests something, it's up for your consideration. It's your responsibility to check its validity. Of course, I would expect anyone's suggestions to be based on facts, be it experience, testing, preference, etc. As I have said before, we are not here to convince you. We do not get anything out of it if you use a reverb that someone here happens to like.

So, if you would like to brush off 99.99% of the people who suggested something, that's on you. Though I fail to understand that if that's the case, and you do not seem to respect the reasoning of most people without proof, why do you still read this thread, or indeed this forum? I would suggest, as I have done before, to do your own research. Read a lot about acoustics, do tests with different materials and with different verbs, and find your dream replacement. It seems that we clearly can't help you here, no matter what anyone says.


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## chopin4525 (Nov 3, 2022)

I agree. Modulation is a difference in pitch. Spaces normally do not normally warp the pitch to my knowledge otherwise no kind of live music would be possible. It kinda baffles me when people call that natural sounding in a reverb. It's exactly the opposite. They have their use and sometimes they are even preferable to more realistic ones because in a context they can sound better. But it's not natural.


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## gamma-ut (Nov 3, 2022)

Just about everything about the recording and mixing process is unnatural. It’s like photographing food: all the extra machine oil and varnish is about conveying an impression, which may be “natural” in appearance, but is far from being so. But it’s done because no-one wants the actually natural result.


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## vitocorleone123 (Nov 3, 2022)

A post on KVR from Sean Costello in 2015



> Modulation is basically some form of adding time variation to a reverb. This can happen via slowly moving delay lines (chorusing), time varying output taps, changing allpass coefficients, changing scattering matrix coefficients, and all sorts of other tricks.
> 
> The goal with modulation was originally to simulate a higher resonance density. In a reverb algorithm that is based around delay lines and feedback, the resonance density is directly proportional to the total amount of delay memory being used. Early digital reverbs had to use between 300 msec and 1 second of delay memory, which will lead to a fairly sparse resonance density. Sparse resonance density leads to ringing, beating sounds, metallic sounds, etc. Modulation helps to simulate a higher resonance density.
> 
> ...


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## sostenuto (Nov 3, 2022)

Learning is sooo rewarding ! 
Also delays uncertain high-expenditures, for touted reverbs with COOL content ! 😜


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## sostenuto (Nov 3, 2022)

Does Acustica-audio 'SILVER' make the list of considered choices ??? 
Volumes M & N out now.





Acqua - Silver - Acustica Audio


We develop the world’s most advanced audio plugins for professional mixing and mastering, based on sampling technology and Artificial Intelligence, trusted by Grammy® Artists and Sound Engineers.




www.acustica-audio.com


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## jcrosby (Nov 3, 2022)

Looks like Neoverb's on sale for $25. 






Buy iZotope Neoverb Reverb Plug-In | Sound Editing/Production Software


Buy iZotope Neoverb. The most intelligent reverb for music producers.




www.izotope.com


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## vitocorleone123 (Nov 3, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> Looks like Neoverb's on sale for $25.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a fair price for it, at least.


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## sostenuto (Nov 3, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> That's a fair price for it, at least.


OK, ok ....... really gotta trust those who know. Wanted 'free' MReverbMB, but perhaps iffy as well. 🥴
Earlier choice to get it was Glitchmachines - Polygon 2 for $10. No clue how to use it tho ...... 
Maybe hang with R4 & Nimbus for now. 😳


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## vitocorleone123 (Nov 3, 2022)

sostenuto said:


> OK, ok ....... really gotta trust those who know. Wanted 'free' MReverbMB, but perhaps iffy as well. 🥴
> Earlier choice to get it was Glitchmachines - Polygon 2 for $10. No clue how to use it tho ......
> Maybe hang with R4 & Nimbus for now.


I'm biased. I really quite liked R4 and Nimbus and was NOT happy with iZotope. That probably colored my views a bit when Neoverb was released. I may like it better now than then. I did feel it lacked something that R4 + Nimbus had on their own... something seemed missing when combined as they did... but it's possible it was just merely the different UI. 

Just wanted to be transparent about how my feelings may have swayed my thinking, so take my comments about Neoverb with a giant grain of salt


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## jcrosby (Nov 3, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> I'm biased. I really quite liked R4 and Nimbus and was NOT happy with iZotope. That probably colored my views a bit when Neoverb was released. I may like it better now than then. I did feel it lacked something that R4 + Nimbus had on their own... something seemed missing when combined as they did... but it's possible it was just merely the different UI.
> 
> Just wanted to be transparent about how my feelings may have swayed my thinking, so take my comments about Neoverb with a giant grain of salt


Fair enough... It's cool you're at least willing to acknowledge it's a possibility... They're definitely different plugins, sonically however I think NV sounds pretty darn nice - not the same, but nice. Neoverb has less control and none of the unique features EA had like tail suppression and color, something some people are bound to dislike (and many do). At the same time it has an additional reverb engine for two simultaneous tails which I like... And the unmasking and autocut do a nice job of cleaning the reverb up. At the same time the unmasking features can also be completely ignored if the user prefers a tone closer to EA's reverbs.

I see them as having different concepts. NV opts for a simplified UI with simplified macro controls intended to dial things in quickly, EA's verbs having more controls and more characterful features.


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## vitocorleone123 (Nov 3, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> Fair enough... It's cool you're at least willing to acknowledge it's a possibility... They're definitely different plugins, sonically however I think NV sounds pretty darn nice - not the same, but nice. Neoverb has less control and none of the unique features EA had like tail suppression and color, something some people are bound to dislike (and many do). At the same time it has an additional reverb engine for two simultaneous tails which I like... And the unmasking and autocut do a nice job of cleaning the reverb up. At the same time the unmasking features can also be completely ignored if the user prefers a tone closer to EA's reverbs.
> 
> I see them as having different concepts. NV opts for a simplified UI with simplified macro controls intended to dial things in quickly, EA's verbs having more controls and more characterful features.


I'm trying the Neoverb demo again and am frustrated with their demo implementation that cuts audio too fast to listen to a reverb tail. The only way I'll be able to compare is on percussive/pluck sounds. Stupid move, iZotope. I'll get back to it when not frustrated


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## José Herring (Nov 3, 2022)

gedlig said:


> They say it's a direct replacement, but it really doesn't sound like it to me. Here's an example of the same preset in R4 and Symphony (Med Far Plate, 35% mix). To me, Symphony just doesn't sound right. Same thing comparing the same presets in Nimbus and Stratus. Something about these newer ones makes the reverbs too bright, metallic (?) and more jagged (for lack of a better term) than R4 and Nimbus.
> 
> Edit: added Nimbus and Stratus (Neutral Hall preset)


First, them some tight friggin' drums. I rather like the sound. 
R2 and R4 are exceptional reverbs. Best in class to me. Symphony sounds like R4 went on a diet. Nimbus and Stratus sound different than R4 but they sound rather good to me. Nimbus is actually quite good to me.


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## jcrosby (Nov 3, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> I'm trying the Neoverb demo again and am frustrated with their demo implementation that cuts audio too fast to listen to a reverb tail. The only way I'll be able to compare is on percussive/pluck sounds. Stupid move, iZotope. I'll get back to it when not frustrated


The demo shouldn't behave like that. Unless you already demoed it on the same machine, it should be fully working for 10 days.


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## sostenuto (Nov 3, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> The demo shouldn't behave like that. Unless you already demoed it on the same machine, it should be fully working for 10 days.


Have Neoverb Demo _ seems OK. Purchasing Neoverb (even at great discount) to get MReverbMB as gift _ feeling like vst 'circle jerk'. 🥴


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## Akoustecx (Nov 3, 2022)

sostenuto said:


> Have Neoverb Demo _ seems OK. Purchasing Neoverb (even at great discount) to get MReverbMB as gift _ feeling like vst 'circle jerk'. 🥴


There's probably a tasteless joke to be made about jerking over some nice tail, but I'm far too polite.


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## José Herring (Nov 3, 2022)

SupremeFist said:


> Voxengo Sobor is extremely good. (For my uses it replaces Nimbus, while for R4 I am good with 7H and VVV.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can you post an example? I use to love Voxengo's plugins then I got "better" stuff but I I still liked what they did because they weren't trying to model anything in particular.


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## jcrosby (Nov 3, 2022)

Here's a blind comparison of 5 different Izotope/EA Reverbs. Four examples are Exponential Audio, one example is Neoverb. One percussion Example, one orchestral tutti example for each reverb.
View attachment Reverb 1.mp3

View attachment Reverb 2.mp3

View attachment Reverb 3.mp3

View attachment Reverb 4.mp3

View attachment Reverb 5.mp3


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## liquidlino (Nov 3, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> Here's a blind comparison of 5 different Izotope/EA Reverbs. Four examples are Exponential Audio, one example is Neoverb. One percussion Example, one orchestral tutti example for each reverb.


Can you edit the post, and click the insert on each one, make them playable within the post please, Justin? Thanks!


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## jcrosby (Nov 3, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> Can you edit the post, and click the insert on each one, make them playable within the post please, Justin? Thanks!


I actually couldn't figure that out lol. Thanks for explaining, updated the post...


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## liquidlino (Nov 3, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> Here's a blind comparison of 5 different Izotope/EA Reverbs. Four examples are Exponential Audio, one example is Neoverb. One percussion Example, one orchestral tutti example for each reverb.
> View attachment Reverb 1.mp3
> 
> View attachment Reverb 2.mp3
> ...


It's tough really - they're all very similar. 1 & 5 stand out a bit to me. 1 the percussion sounds the best - it both adds to the flavour of the percussion, and gets out of the way at the same time. 1 the tutti sounds natural.

5 perc sounds like a big fuel tanker, I've got an IR somewhere just like that. I like it. Tutti sounds huge and natural.

2 perc is a bit over-reverbed, like the tail is a bit grainy. Tutti is good.

3 perc is a bit muddy/overpowered by the verb. Same for the tutti.

4. This I'm guessing is R4 - lots of modulation... I like it, but perhaps a touch over modulated?

And... I sure hope you don't now say they're all the same file!!!! Honestly, at first I couldn't hear much if any difference, I could just be imagining all the above... it's subtle at best.


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## jcrosby (Nov 3, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> It's tough really - they're all very similar. 1 & 5 stand out a bit to me. 1 the percussion sounds the best - it both adds to the flavour of the percussion, and gets out of the way at the same time. 1 the tutti sounds natural.
> 
> 5 perc sounds like a big fuel tanker, I've got an IR somewhere just like that. I like it. Tutti sounds huge and natural.
> 
> ...


There's definitely way more reverb than there would be otherwise, that's just to make it easy to hear and compare each of the tails... You can also notice that the percussion sounds wetter than the orchestral tutti hits on some examples, and vice versa depending on the audio file. In each case both audio files were actually using the same reverb even though the orchestral hits sound quieter in some examples. Overall I tried to get as even a balance between the percussion and tutti samples across each of the 5 reverbs....It's clearly not a perfect example, but hopefully good enough to hear the different characters of each reverb... 

I'll post which reverb is which a little later.


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## gedlig (Nov 3, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Symphony sounds like R4 went on a diet. Nimbus and Stratus sound different than R4 but they sound rather good to me. Nimbus is actually quite good to me.


Pretty much this. I feel like R4 and Nimbus were the pinnacle of Exponential reverbs. Not Symphony, Stratus or Neoverb. Although the strings hall (I think?) preset in Neoverb does sound nice to me.


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## thorwald (Nov 4, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> Here's a blind comparison of 5 different Izotope/EA Reverbs.


5 was quite grainy-sounding to me, especially during the clock ticks.
2 is slightly better, though still noticeably grainy on the ticks.
4 is getting there, there is a noticeable improvement, still a bit bumpy in the tail. This was the one with the most modulation from the five examples.
3 sounds good, although it is a bit muddy.
1, in my opinion, is the most transparent, handles these examples quite well. The only thing that bothered me was a slight sizzle in the highs.


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## José Herring (Nov 4, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> Here's a blind comparison of 5 different Izotope/EA Reverbs. Four examples are Exponential Audio, one example is Neoverb. One percussion Example, one orchestral tutti example for each reverb.
> View attachment Reverb 1.mp3
> 
> View attachment Reverb 2.mp3
> ...


Soooo....are you going to post the big reveal?

At the risk of embarrassing myself, I'll have to go with #4 as being the one that I like most.


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## ptram (Nov 4, 2022)

I find the first four exceptionally beautiful, even if a bit different. The fifth one sounds metallic and unnatural to me. Apparently not made by the same hand of the other four.

Paolo


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## jcrosby (Nov 4, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Soooo....are you going to post the big reveal?
> 
> At the risk of embarrassing myself, I'll have to go with #4 as being the one that I like most.


Sure...


1: Phoenixverb
2: Neoverb
3: Nimbus
4: Stratus
5: Symphony


All of the reverbs were set manually, no presets... I tried to match every parameter that could be matched (decay time, pre/post filters, size, damping, etc). I took advantage of Neoverb's dual tails (hall + plate), which may explain some the impressions that the tail was slightly grainier.

I personally like Neoverb. I agree, it has a deep soundstage. It also has a clear impression of the reverb hitting a wall behind the source, which I like, and can be smoothed out somewhat with the attack. The main quirk I found when comparing all of them is that Neoverb is a lot wider than the other reverbs by default, and unfortunately it doesn't have a control for adjusting the width. I had to set all of the other reverbs to either 125% or 150%.

The other things I noticed are: Stratus has a pretty weird decay. It almost sounds like the tail has some kind of amplitude modulation on it, I personally don't like it. I also feel Symphony has a metallic character that I don't like as much on the percussion, but sounds ok on the orchestral tutti hits. Phoenixverb is more midrangey than the others, but it still sounds pretty great...


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## liquidlino (Nov 4, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> Sure...
> 
> 
> 1: Phoenixverb
> ...


Righty! Pulling out Pheonixverb again then - I'd stopped using it since getting Nimbus & R4, sounds great!

Any chance you could share the settings for this as a preset for Pheonixverb?


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## jcrosby (Nov 4, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> Righty! Pulling out Pheonixverb again then - I'd stopped using it since getting Nimbus & R4, sounds great!
> 
> Any chance you could share the settings for this as a preset for Pheonixverb?


Sure thing... Attached the preset (had to zip it to upload...). If for any reason that doesn't work here's some screenshots... Pre-EQ set to LP at 7k, post-EQ set to LP at 4.5k.


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## liquidlino (Nov 4, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> Sure thing... Attached the preset (had to zip it to upload...). If for any reason that doesn't work here's some screenshots... Pre-EQ set to LP at 7k, post-EQ set to LP at 4.5k.


Thanks but that's Neoverb, not Pheonixverb


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## jcrosby (Nov 4, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> Thanks but that's Neoverb, not Pheonixverb


Doh! Silly me  Here ya go...


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## thorwald (Nov 5, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> Sure...
> 
> 
> 1: Phoenixverb
> ...


It's good to confirm that the more transparent verbs still come out on top for me, though I was surprised that I rated Nimbus lower than Phoenix.

Although one set of examples is not something one should grade a reverb by, these are very useful to do, thank you! Even though I am fortunate to have found my dream reverb earlier, I sometimes feel that reverbs are a never-ending story.


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## Bman70 (Nov 5, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> Thanks but that's Neoverb, not Pheonixverb


Phoenixverb is also one of those being axed, so it's not really a replacement though right?


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## Russell Anderson (Nov 5, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> I personally like Neoverb. I agree, it has a deep soundstage. It also has a clear impression of the reverb hitting a wall behind the source, which I like


I think the deep soundstage is the natural result of parallel reverbs, made easier to set up with an XY pad. I wish more companies made this workflow more accessible; for now it's up to us to build macros or to use Neoverb. While I like the new EQ interface, I would also appreciate more control over the ER/LR predelays, the reverb attack length, and ER/LR attack slope, and ER/LR EQ...

Which if Izotope executed on their philosophy of simplicity of use, it doesn't necessarily mean axing the parameters altogether, they would just need to better organize the interface.


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## liquidlino (Nov 5, 2022)

Bman70 said:


> Phoenixverb is also one of those being axed, so it's not really a replacement though right?


I'm not worried about obsolecense particularly - on windows, I expect these plugs will run for another decade at least... and totally happy with my exponential audio verbs, they're great! Coupled with IRs that I've accumulated and use in IR-1, I have no reverb GAS at all.


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## Bman70 (Nov 5, 2022)

thorwald said:


> It's apparently being crossgraded to the REV6000, which is more of an 1 to 1 emulation of the TC 6000, according to https://gearspace.com/board/music-computers/1359682-what-happened-relab-vsr-s24-2.html


Well I invented some new combinations of profanity just now. They discontinued VSR S24? I have templates built around that reverb. Better fire off an email before I forget these new words.


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## thorwald (Nov 5, 2022)

Bman70 said:


> Phoenixverb is also one of those being axed, so it's not really a replacement though right?


Very true, but I'd be slightly worried if any of the EOL plugins was rated higher than the supported ones.


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## gamma-ut (Nov 5, 2022)

thorwald said:


> It's good to confirm that the more transparent verbs still come out on top for me, though I was surprised that I rated Nimbus lower than Phoenix.



A lot of this could simply be down to choice of ER patterns as they differ in each of the Exponential reverbs. One of them sounded to me as though the earlies had a bit of a ramp up compared to the others which then changes the subjective impression once those reflections start swirling around the late-reverb tank, exacerbated by the fact it’s a percussive initial sound.

I think with any of these (though perhaps not Neo with its simplified controls) if you work with any of them, you’d end up with results that are better for a particular source. One of the beauties of these reverbs is the good control you have over ERs, though it takes time to get used to them.


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## jcrosby (Nov 5, 2022)

gamma-ut said:


> A lot of this could simply be down to choice of ER patterns as they differ in each of the Exponential reverbs. One of them sounded to me as though the earlies had a bit of a ramp up compared to the others which then changes the subjective impression once those reflections start swirling around the late-reverb tank, exacerbated by the fact it’s a percussive initial sound.


If you mean the examples I posted(???) If so there were no ERs used in any of them, tails only. You're probably referring to the attack of the tail, which I prefer to set fairly slow. It helps to create some of the effect I described where it sounds like the source is reflecting off of a wall behind it, which can deepen the soundstage. It also helps create a little clarity, similar to when you use a long predelay for the same effect.


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## Living Fossil (Nov 5, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> Righty! Pulling out Pheonixverb again then - I'd stopped using it since getting Nimbus & R4, sounds great!


With the same settings, phoenix and nimbus are identical.
Nimbus just offers more features (like other ER patterns etc), but you are safe to use the phoenix settings inside of nimbus to get an identical sound.


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## GtrString (Nov 5, 2022)

These verbs can be replaced with anything, really, as they are nothing special. I have Neoverb, and the sound signature is pretty bland, but the functionality in the plugin is very good. Sometimes that is just what you need.


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## gamma-ut (Nov 5, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> If you mean the examples I posted(???) If so there were no ERs used in any of them, tails only. You're probably referring to the attack of the tail, which I prefer to set fairly slow. It helps to create some of the effect I described where it sounds like the source is reflecting off of a wall behind it, which can deepen the soundstage. It also helps create a little clarity, similar to when you use a long predelay for the same effect.



I missed that there were no earlies, though it's a bit hard to tell when the source is embedded with the reverb. But here's why I thought the treatment of early reflections were leading to the biggest differences (though Nimbus seemed way more bassy in the posted examples compared to Phoenix).

However, there are differences in how the different editions of what is basically the same core algorithm seems to feed energy into the main reverb tank. Here are fully wet examples using your source Phoenix preset. They are matched to settings rather than to ear on the assumption that the Nimbus tail is meant to be the same as Phoenix. 

However, as you'll hear in these examples there were clearly some optimisations done in between those two that, I would imagine, were designed to reduce graininess. The first is Phoenix, second Nimbus, third Stratus. Listen for what sounds like gravel being spread across paper: almost unfiltered reflections of the initial percussive hit, particularly on the first one. I chose a very tight hit to really bring it out: it's not meant to be flattering. It's more drawn out on Phoenix than on Nimbus. Stratus, there was clearly work to make the sound more naturalistic though more fluttery. There's no setting that alters that in Nimbus to bring it closer to Phoenix, though the underling tail is pretty much the same.

View attachment EA - Slow Attack 16.mp3


It's perhaps easier to hear the difference, particularly the "gravel throwing" with a very fast attack.

View attachment EA - Fast Attack 16.mp3


After all that, I think I'd pick Stratus every time and just use some filtering/EQ and a plate algorithm to get a smoother sound (if that's what I wanted). I can see why they're happier pushing Stratus etc for post-production type work.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Nov 5, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> Sure...
> 
> 
> 1: Phoenixverb
> ...


I liked 1 & 5 the best. Did the test without checking which was which beforehand.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Nov 5, 2022)

Listening again, I can hear what you said about #5 having a kind of metallic sound to it.


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## thorwald (Nov 5, 2022)

gamma-ut said:


> Here are fully wet examples using your source Phoenix preset. They are matched to settings rather than to ear on the assumption that the Nimbus tail is meant to be the same as Phoenix.
> 
> However, as you'll hear in these examples there were clearly some optimisations done in between those two that, I would imagine, were designed to reduce graininess. The first is Phoenix, second Nimbus, third Stratus. Listen for what sounds like gravel being spread across paper: almost unfiltered reflections of the initial percussive hit, particularly on the first one. I chose a very tight hit to really bring it out: it's not meant to be flattering. It's more drawn out on Phoenix than on Nimbus. Stratus, there was clearly work to make the sound more naturalistic though more fluttery. There's no setting that alters that in Nimbus to bring it closer to Phoenix, though the underling tail is pretty much the same.


This example right here is the bane of reverbs and my reverb testing 

Many reverbs provide ways of overcoming it, and of course it does not happen with every material, but it's very hard to unhear.


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## wst3 (Nov 5, 2022)

Aldunate said:


> I am not mad at the loyalty prices for Stratus and Symphony.(49 and 79)


Where did you find loyalty discounts? I own R4, Nimbus, and the late, lamented Excalibur.

Thanks!


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## gamma-ut (Nov 5, 2022)

thorwald said:


> This example right here is the bane of reverbs and my reverb testing
> 
> Many reverbs provide ways of overcoming it, and of course it does not happen with every material, but it's very hard to unhear.



It's a pathological source. But slap a transient suppressor on the front, maybe notch out around 3kHz (though you might want to feed some of the unaltered source to a separate reverb for ERs for a bit more realistic space):

View attachment Transient Filtered.mp3


Kiss goodbye to gravel and frying bacon you'd otherwise get:

View attachment No Filter.mp3


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## thorwald (Nov 5, 2022)

gamma-ut said:


> It's a pathological source. But slap a transient suppressor on the front, maybe notch out around 3kHz (though you might want to feed some of the unaltered source to a separate reverb for ERs for a bit more realistic space):
> 
> View attachment Transient Filtered.mp3
> 
> ...


Luckily, I never have to worry about "gravel and frying bacon" with Seventh Heaven, but there are a few more that are grave-bacon-proof of course. That's phase 1 of reverb testing, in my book anyway.

Huge thanks for these. It's proof that everything can be fixed with some effort. If you happen to find yourself in a strange place and hear the second example around you, you can be sure that it's just part of your nightmare 😀


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## gamma-ut (Nov 5, 2022)

thorwald said:


> Luckily, I never have to worry about "gravel and frying bacon" with Seventh Heaven, but there are a few more that are grave-bacon-proof of course. That's phase 1 of reverb testing, in my book anyway.



ORLY?

View attachment 7th Heaven Patho.mp3


However, to be fair, I have chosen some deliberately daft settings here, such as Piano Hall, with little to no effective dampening on the high reflections in the roll-off section. If you called up Piano Hall as is, the roll off would be set lower and not cause that HF build-up as the reverb tends to be biased to being quite dark (the same reason the OG Lexicons tend to do well). And even with those settings the grain is shifted out of the range where the ear is most sensitive, so it doesn't sound as bad as the pathological case on PhoenixVerb.


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## Aldunate (Nov 5, 2022)

wst3 said:


> Where did you find loyalty discounts? I own R4, Nimbus, and the late, lamented Excalibur.
> 
> Thanks!


On Izotope site and Pluginboutique.


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## thorwald (Nov 5, 2022)

gamma-ut said:


> However, to be fair, I have chosen some deliberately daft settings here, such as Piano Hall, with little to no effective dampening on the high reflections in the roll-off section. If you called up Piano Hall as is, the roll off would be set lower and not cause that HF build-up as the reverb tends to be biased to being quite dark (the same reason the OG Lexicons tend to do well). And even with those settings the grain is shifted out of the range where the ear is most sensitive, so it doesn't sound as bad as the pathological case on PhoenixVerb.


Of course. I think every reverb has a sweet spot, which is either there by default or one needs to work for it. And of course reverbs can be configured incorrectly to sound bad as well.

I think it's always going to remain a question of what someone prefers: how much work needs to be done to make it sound good, uniqueness and character, buildup, source material, customizability, surround support, CPU use, iLok, developer support, budget, and of course being pleasing to the ear, etc.

All these EOL reverbs are very much part of reverb history: I myself have R2, R4, Phoenix and Nimbus, and I wouldn't get rid of them, for the simple fact that when they are used once or twice a year, they contribute something that just sounds right. And ultimately, that's what matters: what sounds right to you.


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## jcrosby (Nov 5, 2022)

wst3 said:


> Where did you find loyalty discounts? I own R4, Nimbus, and the late, lamented Excalibur.
> 
> Thanks!


Also here:

Stratus $49 crossgrade:





| bestservice.com







www.bestservice.com





Symphony $79 crossgrade:








Exponential Audio: Symphony Crossgrade from any EA | iZotope | bestservice.com


Exponential Audio: Symphony Crossgrade from any EA | Exponential Audio | iZotope | Symphony | Crossgrade | Lush reverb for surround and immersive formats | From any EA | EN




www.bestservice.com


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## jcrosby (Nov 5, 2022)

gamma-ut said:


> But slap a transient suppressor on the front, maybe notch out around 3kHz


This is one of the things I really like about Neoverb - _Smoothing_. I didn't enable the feature in my examples, as I thought it would best to compare the difference in the tails as is...


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## Russell Anderson (Nov 5, 2022)

In my own listening I ended up always turning smoothing on. I wonder how much "smoothing" is already built into Nimbus/R4? Without it, it was too... grainy? Square? I had actually forgotten at one point that there even was a smoothing parameter and was thinking "man, I don't remember it sounding _this_ bad" after trying once more to compare it to the EA reverbs, until a few moments later when I saw the grayed-out slider. 

In my listening to the 5 examples here in a random pair of MDR7506's (had not looked at the reveal post at the time), I liked 1 and 3 most (if 3 was as dry as 1, maybe 3 the most?), then 5, then 4 and then 2. 2 was very grainy to me, and I was ready to be surprised and hear that it was R4 or something. It was Neoverb!

As much as I want to but don't like the workflow in Neoverb, and wish they hadn't removed what I think are important parameters, with smoothing enabled I think Neoverb sounds good. I want those parameters though!


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## jcrosby (Nov 5, 2022)

Russell Anderson said:


> In my own listening I ended up always turning smoothing on. I wonder how much "smoothing" is already built into Nimbus/R4? Without it, it was too... grainy? Square? I had actually forgotten at one point that there even was a smoothing parameter and was thinking "man, I don't remember it sounding _this_ bad" after trying once more to compare it to the EA reverbs, until a few moments later when I saw the grayed-out slider.
> 
> In my listening to the 5 examples here in a random pair of MDR7506's (had not looked at the reveal post at the time), I liked 1 and 3 most (if 3 was as dry as 1, maybe 3 the most?), then 5, then 4 and then 2. 2 was very grainy to me, and I was ready to be surprised and hear that it was R4 or something. It was Neoverb!
> 
> As much as I want to but don't like the workflow in Neoverb, and wish they hadn't removed what I think are important parameters, with smoothing enabled I think Neoverb sounds good. I want those parameters though!


Neoverb's also only at version 1. Vocalsynth 1 to 2 was a pretty big improvement, I would imagine a version 2 of Neoverb will bring a decent number of new features, and, hopefully greater control and/or more reverb parameters.


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## WhiteNoiz (Nov 6, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> Sure...
> 
> 
> 1: Phoenixverb
> ...


Preferred Phoenix on this too.... Sounds closest to what I would consider as fitting. Second was neo which felt just fine. Nimbus was middle of the road also; not special, not bad. Last two I didn't really like. (Well, at least in this example)

Second example on mine was also Phoenix, which Henu preferred. Funnily, neither him or Beat seemed to realize the first one was the dry version. Or maybe I imagined that. 🤣

First one was ToneBoosters v3 (it's free now) which I usually like on master as glue. It has something that feels appealing to me...

Very often when I really want an apparent, strong verb I'll just turn to the free lfx 1310 by Sonic Cat. I like the gate one for more center presence and the room and hall algos feel so thick and alive, love them to pieces (not on everything, obviously). It's hard to dial them in and I wish they had a more extended, dedicated and more easily adjustable version, but still really like the sound. Also really like the steep filters and the delays. Consider it a gem for my taste.

Just thought I'd mention a couple I rarely see.

In the end, it's what excites you. 🤷


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## robgb (Nov 6, 2022)

I'm a diehard R4 fan, am pissed that it's being abandoned, but I picked up Neoverb for $23, and really don't understand the hate it's getting. It's a fine reverb with some features that few, if any, other reverbs have.


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## RudyS (Nov 6, 2022)

Mmm, ok. I might pick it up as well then. 

My other option is just keep on using nimbus until it doesn’t work anymore. I’m still on intel Mac, so for now it’s no problem. 

Hopefully Neoverb is a good alternative.


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## SupremeFist (Nov 6, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Can you post an example? I use to love Voxengo's plugins then I got "better" stuff but I I still liked what they did because they weren't trying to model anything in particular.


Sorry, haven't had a chance at my desk yet, but will try to do so this week!


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## wst3 (Nov 6, 2022)

Aldunate said:


> On Izotope site and Pluginboutique.


Not sure what I did, but I still can't see them on the iZotope site, but since they are on the plugin boutique site I am all set. Downloaded the demo versions just to make sure<G>.

Thanks so much!


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## vitocorleone123 (Nov 6, 2022)

robgb said:


> I'm a diehard R4 fan, am pissed that it's being abandoned, but I picked up Neoverb for $23, and really don't understand the hate it's getting. It's a fine reverb with some features that few, if any, other reverbs have.


I've decided to pass on buying it, even at $23, for 3 reasons

1) I'm moving away from Soundwide products overall as much as feasible (not rushing out the door, but trying to not add more would be a good start - looking forward to Sonible's upcoming tools so I can move away from Tonal Balance Control, which is the last iZotope thing I have installed from the MPS3 except for RX... and it's not like I'll dump Kontakt)

2) I already have several respectable reverbs I don't use (e.g., Valhalla Vintage Verb, D16 Toraverb), and I suspect this would just be another of those - my needs seem pretty much covered by CRP+TaiChi+HDCart, and I'm going to put that $23 toward Lustrous Plates on BF sale

3) I still don't think it's as good overall as Nimbus and R4 - or perhaps not as easy to achieve the same results, but it's not far off (except for the subtle but advanced features those had). And at least it seems supported. For now.


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## SupremeFist (Nov 8, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Can you post an example? I use to love Voxengo's plugins then I got "better" stuff but I I still liked what they did because they weren't trying to model anything in particular.


This is Sobor on the "Midrange Hall" preset, no other processing. Using @Beat Kaufmann's test files:


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## cedricm (Nov 8, 2022)

robgb said:


> I'm a diehard R4 fan, am pissed that it's being abandoned, but I picked up Neoverb for $23, and really don't understand the hate it's getting. It's a fine reverb with some features that few, if any, other reverbs have.


No hate, but it offers much less parameters. 
So ir can't replace R4 unless you are fine with the presets and the very few parameters available.


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## robgb (Nov 8, 2022)

cedricm said:


> No hate, but it offers much less parameters.
> So ir can't replace R4 unless you are fine with the presets and the very few parameters available.


I actually think that may be improvement in some ways. I've found myself going into a deep settings hole with R4. I do like having the control, but sometimes simplicity is good, especially when there's no sacrifice in sonic quality.


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## José Herring (Nov 8, 2022)

SupremeFist said:


> This is Sobor on the "Midrange Hall" preset, no other processing. Using @Beat Kaufmann's test files:


This is actually quite good. I remember that Voxengo made a great IR reverb engine but then he never made a 64bit version of it. I contacted him personally over the years but yet he kept saying no that he isn't going to upgrade it to 64bit. So Sobor though it isn't an IR does sound like a decent enough reverb for many occasions.


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## thorwald (Nov 8, 2022)

I am pleasantly surprised by Baby Audio's Crystalline. I've done some quick testing today, including deliberately trying to make it sound bad.

Short percussive signals, for example, were handled quite well, I could only make it sound somewhat grainy on the largest size, which is definitely not a room you want to put percussion in. But up to its "Large" setting, everything was perfect, at least with the small test material I used (drumsticks, a brush kit with rim hits, acoustic guitar, creaking gate, microphone feedback).

Its parameters are nowhere near as complex as R4's, and of course the sound it produces is more modern, even set to the basic resolution, but I could see myself switching to this as a general reverb over Phoenix, Nimbus, R2 and R4.


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## sostenuto (Nov 8, 2022)

Missed past Crystalline 'deals' _ hoping for super BF offer !


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## vitocorleone123 (Nov 8, 2022)

Additional "inexpensive" reverbs include
* Raum
* Verberate2 (more to replace Nimbus)
* Spacerek
* Toraverb 2
* Valhalla Room
* Valhalla Vintage Verb
* Valhalla Plate
* TAL Reverb (free)
* One or more of them by Melda
* Kleverb
* TSAR-1R
* Seventh Heaven Standard
* One or more by Voxengo
* LX480 Essentials (I keep deleting this one and adding it back hoping it improved)
* Micro Digital Reverberator (I still have this installed)

... and more, and more

I stopped shopping and deleted several from my computer (Valhalla Vintage Verb, Raum, TAL, TSAR-1R, Seventh Heaven, Little Plate, Toraverb2, and more, as well as R4 and Nimbus) once I found the two that replaced R4 and Nimbus for me.


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## thorwald (Nov 9, 2022)

Since Denise Audio's Perfect Room is advertised as a natural reverb, I've ran a few things through it and compared it to the Quantum from Savant Audio.

I personally like the response of the Quantum, there's less resonance and it envelops the sound more. It's one drawback (similarly to the hardware) that putting drums through needs a bit of work. It's particularly grainy for shorter, percussive sounds, for example rim hits on larger sizes.

Perfect room on the other hand is absolutely fine, I couldn't make it sound grainy even on larger sizes. It's reflections, however, were slightly less detailed to my ears, and the tail size goes up to 5 seconds only. As mentioned, it was also a tad more resonant. It has modulation as well, plus shimmer and a ducker.

It is currently on sale now, the reason why I mention this is because in my opinion it sounds better than Valhalla Room, which if I'm not mistaken was mentioned as an alternative. The only feature I would possibly miss is the separation of the early reflection from the tail.


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## vitocorleone123 (Nov 15, 2022)

OK. So I recently re-installed Toraverb 2 and... I can actually get it to sound quite good. Not particularly realistic, but for a nice space? Yes. My favorite presets are the Lex Cathedral (large space) and the oddly named Hemoglobin - Situation (smaller space/chamber) presets, which I then tweak.

The UI put me off when I first go it because I bought the Silverline collection before I knew what I was doing. That was then, now I have some clue, and it's actually pretty-well designed and rather capable and smooth sounding.

I've seen it for as low as around $30 this year. For anyone not looking for a real space, though it can do ok in approximating, I definitely recommend the demo. Wtih the caveat that it helps to know how reverbs work so you can use the controls effectively - it's not as beginner friendly as some reverbs.


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## Noeticus (Nov 15, 2022)

I have recently fallen in love with the "Teldex Studio", ah, I mean the "Berlin Studio" reverb.









Berlin Studio - Samplicity


The beautiful acoustics of the famous Teldex recording studio captured with three high grade microphone sets. Now available with more than 20% introduction discount!




samplicity.com


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Nov 16, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> Sure...
> 
> 
> 1: Phoenixverb
> ...


Did this test blind earlier and liked 1 and 5 the best.

Now I did the test again @jcrosby - and liked 2 the best, by a mile, and 5 the least 

2 sounds the most natural, 5 very unnatural.

It's strange how one's perception of sound can differ so much.


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## Tanarri (Nov 16, 2022)

I demoed Neoverb. I still like Nimbus and R4 better and they eat 1/4th of the CPU.

I listened to LiquidSonics reverbs demos and frankly, I don't feel any urge to get those when I have Valhalla reverbs, R4 and Nimbus. Maybe, if I have spare money, I'll buy Tai Chi Lite on sale, maybe.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 16, 2022)

What is the actual described (FROM EA) difference between say R4/Nimbus and Stratus? I would not expect it to sound exactly the same, though I do admit if its able to read the presets from the earlier products they abandoned, it ought to...but...anyway, just trying to decide if its worth $49 to cross grade to stratus. I have enjoyed using R4/Nimbus quite a lot, but I'm also kind of peeved about it being abandoned by izo, but on the other hand they were selling it for cheap for the past year or two...so maybe we should have seen it coming...

As far as other replacements, I'm not sure either, but I will only say that IR based products are not a true replacement and should not be included on this thread. The whole point of these plugins was that they were algorithmic reverbs and quite good ones. True replacements might include FabFilter Pro-R, and others that have been mentioned, but do we really need to listen to so much evangelizing about Cinematic Rooms like a broken record, or other captured IR's here on this thread? Those are not true replacements for these excellent abandoned reverbs from Exponential Audio.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 16, 2022)

Tanarri said:


> I demoed Neoverb. I still like Nimbus and R4 better and they eat 1/4th of the CPU.
> 
> I listened to LiquidSonics reverbs demos and frankly, I don't feel any urge to get those when I have Valhalla reverbs, R4 and Nimbus. Maybe, if I have spare money, I'll buy Tai Chi Lite on sale, maybe.



I'm a big fan of Reverberate, don't get me wrong, but I have passed on the others from Liquidsonics because the IR's gave me ear fatigue quite quickly. I would have gotten their plates perhaps but I already have enough plates. 

Anyway, not to knock Liquidsonics, he's a great developer..I wish he would get into algorithmic solutions and go from there...but anyway....to replace R4 and Nimbus with something algorithmic...is another matter... Its a sad loss that Izo is letting them become abandoned. Stratus and Symphony have the surround capabilities, which mostly I don't need and it would cost a lot to upgrade to that feature set anyway. They should have upgraded all R4/Nimbus users to stereo Stratus/Symphony for free or close to free honestly...I would rather send my money elsewhere at this point.


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## thorwald (Nov 17, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> What is the actual described (FROM EA) difference between say R4/Nimbus and Stratus? I would not expect it to sound exactly the same, though I do admit if its able to read the presets from the earlier products they abandoned, it ought to...


As we have found out, they do not sound the same, even when using the same preset. They ought to, I agree, but I guess there was something always being changed. Earlier iterations should sound worse, but that's also not the case sometimes.



Dewdman42 said:


> True replacements might include FabFilter Pro-R, and others that have been mentioned, but do we really need to listen to so much evangelizing about Cinematic Rooms like a broken record, or other captured IR's here on this thread?


Cinematic Rooms is an algorithmic reverb.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 17, 2022)

thorwald said:


> Cinematic Rooms is an algorithmic reverb.



no sir its based on IR's. Clever programming surrounding those IR's no doubt...but impulse responses none the less.


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## gedlig (Nov 17, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> no sir its based on IR's. Clever programming surrounding those IR's no doubt...but impulse responses none the less.


I'm pretty sure that's 7th heaven and Lustrious plates that are IRs with special tech, but Cinematic rooms is algorithmic


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## Russell Anderson (Nov 17, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> no sir its based on IR's. Clever programming surrounding those IR's no doubt...but impulse responses none the less.


Where are you reading this from?


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 17, 2022)

CR uses IR's too. We will never know how much because its all internal, but it does. You can read the sound on sound article which is quite in depth and labels it an algorithmic reverb due to the insane flexibility and clever programming I mentioned, but still mentions that IR's are involved.

In hindsight it was Seventh Heaven I tried and hated with ear fatigue....can't speak for CR on that factor. I know many of you love it, I don't want to start a war over my comments. Just saying...it is not a true algorithmic reverb IMHO. And that should come as no surprise as the developer is an absolute IR guru.

Here is sound on sound article: https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/liquidsonics-cinematic-rooms


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## Russell Anderson (Nov 17, 2022)

It would not be the first time I've heard of convolution being used in algorithmic reverbs, as next to spatialization convolution can also accomplish complex filtering and stereo manipulation... I think the main takeaway is that if you do not like cinematic rooms, using other reverbs will not get you in trouble. And that the lines are indeed being blurred these days between the two reverb methods, but the artifacting audible when changing parameters doesn't lend itself to a very IR-central design.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 17, 2022)

I could care less about marketing terms and definitely not arguing about what it means to be algorithmic, which I can see its going to now be argued that literally anything could be called algorithmic according to you if its not a _simple_ sampled IR playback. But I think there is a humongous difference between sample and synthesized....algorithmic...without samples (ie IR's)...is something else. Power to Liquidsonics for attempting to do revolutionary things with IR's..nothing against that..but with regards to this thread, which is about a true algorithmic replacement for R4/Nimbus...I don't think that is it. Just one opinion...


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## gedlig (Nov 17, 2022)

Hmm


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## Russell Anderson (Nov 17, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> I can see its going to now be argued that literally anything could be called algorithmic according to you


Really?

I don't think the OP/the general conversation here is about wanting to use something purely on principle of it not using a single piece of convolution technology anywhere in its design. This nugget of information about CR convolution is interesting, but not likely to change many minds.


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## gamma-ut (Nov 17, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> But I think there is a humongous difference between sample and synthesized....algorithmic...without samples (ie IR's)...is something else. Power to Liquidsonics for attempting to do revolutionary things with IR's..nothing against that..but with regards to this thread, which is about a true algorithmic replacement for R4/Nimbus...I don't think that is it. Just one opinion...



I think I'm most impressed by the way you're arguing the toss over this having not even tried the plugin in question, looking at its download size (hint: it's not very big), not bothering to read what Matt has posted about it on his own site and trying to represent convolution itself as not qualifying as an "algorithm" – which when one considers how reverberation operates in the real world is a somewhat bizarre position to adopt.

I must have missed the law that says all algorithmic reverbs can only use allpass filters and delay lines.

Plus, for bonus points, ignoring Tai Chi, which was explicitly based on the 480-type of reverb.

You're free to dislike what you dislike but this is just one bizarre digression.


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## Russell Anderson (Nov 17, 2022)

gamma-ut said:


> Plus, for bonus points, ignoring Tai Chi, which was explicitly based on the 480-type of reverb.


Consider how many people buy that plugin on impulse, though. What would you call that?


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## gamma-ut (Nov 17, 2022)

Russell Anderson said:


> Consider how many people buy that plugin on impulse, though. What would you call that?



Things just get so convoluted.


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## gedlig (Nov 17, 2022)

Badum tss


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## Tanarri (Nov 17, 2022)

We are talking about R4 and Nimbus getting EOL'd. But they are both VST3 plugins. They may still work for another decade or two or who knows how long.

Yea, things like Cubase stopping to support x32 plugins happen, but I can still use them in Reaper, for example.
The need to find replacements for R4 and Nimbus is not that urgent.


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## gedlig (Nov 17, 2022)

I imagine it's somewhat urgent for mac users, cause that stupid os does such updates that require other software to be updated to be able to use them at all.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 17, 2022)

Windows users will be able to use them for much longer in the future then mac

R4 and Nimbus work on Monterey and maybe they will on Ventura I’m not sure but they will never be Apple Silicon native. We can get a few more years out of them if we are still using intel machines. The question is whether you care about being able to open older projects in the future using those plugins. If you are ok with pretty much losing that ability in a year or two, then fine carry on using them. I myself will not be, have to move on.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 17, 2022)

There is nothing “bizarre” about distinguishing between algorithmic and IR based reverbs. Synthesized vs samples. They each have their place in the world with different pros and cons. I am also a huge fan of mir pro with its IR’s. They all have a place. I do not feel IR based reverbs are a good substitute for R4 or Nimbus. You are of course entitled to your own opinion and if Cinematic Rooms really rocks your boat then by all means use it! I still feel that is not an appropriate replacement for R4 or Nimbus. To each their own.

I feel that the main advantage of cinematic rooms is flexibility and ability to represent convincing rooms of different sizes, In this sense it is more comparable to mirpro and other products that specialize in stage positioning and imitated room sounds with a big focus on ER content and manipulation to imitate rooms. While algorithmic reverbs tend ti be more about sweetening the sound in general rather then practical and precise room imitation.

Some good algorithmic reverbs I will consider from here include Pro-R, Miracle, Acon, Eventide and some others. I regret having purchased or depended on exponential audio reverbs even though they are quite nice and powerful, nice sounding algorithmic reverbs. It’s actually kind of tragic that Izo doesn’t see it but I think someone blew it when they allowed them to be sold off so cheaply at the end of exponential audio’s company existence.


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## vitocorleone123 (Nov 17, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> Windows users will be able to use them for much longer in the future then mac


Incorrect.

Windows users MAY be able to use them for longer in the future than Mac.

I had to delete them, as I've said probably earlier in this thread (?), because they didn't work with my DAW anymore.

Which is why I went with Liquidsonics algorithmic solutions like CRP and TaiChi, which also sound better to me than R4 and Nimbus, overall. R4 and Nimbus sound good, but don't sound real, like CRP, for example. Reality isn't always needed, but CRP is also what I consider "sweet" - just deviate from the presets, add chorusing, bloom, undulation, etc. TaiChi can go even further in that direction, but less so on the realistic side in comparison.

CRP + my OB-6 have literally brought tears to my eyes it can be so beautiful. No other reverb with my OB-6 ever has.

Reverb preference is very subjective, of course.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 17, 2022)

One of the reasons for using actual algorithmic reverbs is for their “vagueness” compared to IR solutions. Sometimes that is called for. I realize some people may have been using R4 and Nimbus in situations where they probably should have been using an IR solution to begin with, in which case this change from izo has forced your hand to discover that.

As far as I’m concerned, everything from liquidaonics is IR based, albeit with a lot of clever programming and revolutionary use of IR based Dsp to achieve a lot of flexibility and to imitate algorithmic reverberation. The IR’s are still there and have a sonic signature. That is the inherent nature of samples. Again, that is not a good or bad thing, it’s just a recognition of what they are.

Sorry to hear windows users are also going to be negatively affected


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## vitocorleone123 (Nov 17, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> One of the reasons for using actual algorithmic reverbs is for their “vagueness” compared to IR solutions. Sometimes that is called for. I realize some people may have been using R4 and Nimbus in situations where they probably should have been using an IR solution to begin with, in which case this change from izo has forced your hand to discover that.
> 
> As far as I’m concerned, everything from liquidaonics is IR based, albeit with a lot of clever programming and revolutionary use of IR based Dsp to achieve a lot of flexibility and to imitate algorithmic reverberation. The IR’s are still there and have a sonic signature. That is the inherent nature of samples. Again, that is not a good or bad thing, it’s just a recognition of what they are.
> 
> Sorry to hear windows users are also going to be negatively affected


You should confirm with Matt about the IRs as it seems to matter a lot to you (I don't mean for that to sound snarky, just factual). Sound on Sound isn't always accurate in their reporting.

All reverbs have an inherent sonic signature to my ears, no matter how they go about reverberating. There's zero difference in that regard between IR and algorithmic - each reverb has a character to it because it's made by people with a vision for how they want it to sound. This is one reason reverb is so subjective.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 17, 2022)

You are still missing my point but it’s ok this conversation is getting stale.

I don’t have any need to confirm anything with liquidsonics, perhaps you should if it matters to you. I can tell with my ears that their products are using IR, it’s pretty obvious. Again, for the final time, that is not necessarily a negative it just depends on what you’re using it for


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## vitocorleone123 (Nov 17, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> You are still missing my point but it’s ok this conversation is getting stale.
> 
> I don’t have any need to confirm anything with liquidsonics, perhaps you should if it matters to you. I can tell with my ears that their products are using IR, it’s pretty obvious. Again, for the final time, that is not necessarily a negative it just depends on what you’re using it for


Your claim was this:



> Those are not true replacements for these excellent abandoned reverbs from Exponential Audio



That seems to be your view. It's OK to be unique when it comes to art.

Let's go ahead and ask @LiquidSonics (if they can answer without giving away "secret sauce") if IRs are at all used in Cinematic Rooms as well as TaiChi (and maybe HDCart). Was Sound on Sound correct when they stated



> Cinematic Rooms is very much an algorithmic reverb, albeit one that still incorporates some convolution elements.



Personally, I'm intellectually curious to have the facts (interesting to note that Sound on Sound also considers Cinematic Rooms to be an algorithmic reverb), so that I'm not claiming one thing or the other when I may be wrong.

In the end, however, knowing one way or the other will have zero impact on my choice of reverb to use in any given situation - including truly replacing one reverb with another.


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## zvenx (Nov 17, 2022)

> Algorithmic reverbs are better suited to this requirement by design, but I rarely find they satisfy my personal preference when it comes to density and spectral purity (although there are a handful of notable exceptions that I admire greatly). I needed to find another way to achieve the extremely high densities and purity of tone that I demand from reverb without introducing any of the metallic/ringing/chorusing qualities which I am not fond of. *The Cinematic Rooms algorithm does not use samples or Fusion-IR as in many other LiquidSonics reverbs*, but I am pleased to say that using a novel algorithm I have achieved the goal I set for myself.











Do You Really Need Another Reverb In 2020? Why Cinematic Rooms Is Different. - LiquidSonics







www.liquidsonics.com






But don't let this distract from the man who knows everything.. states so publicly and loudly and rarely if ever has proof of his statements.... and gets an attitude when you ask for proof.
rsp


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## Patryk Scelina (Nov 17, 2022)

Izotope has some personalised offers for existing customers and I decided to go with Symphony as a replacement for R4. It sounds a bit different, but settings are very similar and it's almost as light for CPU as R4.
Cinematic Rooms is great but I tested trial version and it's much more CPU hungry than Symphony, not so much as Seventh Heaven though.
Of course it's not a big deal when You use 1-2 intances, but in a big project with 15 reverbs it can make a difference.
I'm still learning the sound and I need to tinker a bit to get similar results as with R4, but so far I'm really enjoying it.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 17, 2022)

Patryk Scelina said:


> Izotope has some personalised offers for existing customers



what are those personalized offers?


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## Patryk Scelina (Nov 17, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> what are those personalized offers?


When You log in to your account you have some loyalty offers in your dashboard.
Also when you are logged in and you open exponential audio reverb bundle page you should see your price is different. I believe if have some EA reverb you should see some discount on Symphony and Stratus single products as well.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 17, 2022)

just to confirm, was that $49 for the non-surround Stratus and $79 for non-surround Symphony?


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 17, 2022)

zvenx said:


> Do You Really Need Another Reverb In 2020? Why Cinematic Rooms Is Different. - LiquidSonics
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Who has an attitude? hehe. wow that is really not nice of you to say. Where did I say that I know everything? I have stated several times that is just my opinion and that you are entitled to yours. I am allowed to have an opinion, as are you and I am allowed to express it here, as have you. The conversations is getting stale since people seem to be talking past each other don't you think? there is no need to get personal about it zvenx.

Thanks for sharing that very long article, I will read it later, but I still have the opinion as of now, that Matt is using Convolution technology in some capacity. Someone quoted above that its not using Fusion-IR or "samples". Fusion-IR is a very specific use case. Not using samples...ok...does he mean its not using any IR's or Convolution of any kind by that statement? Maybe so! But not completely clear to me. Sound on Sound certainly expressed that it is in fact using some. But hey if he has figured out a way to get such a dense and realistic reverberation with purely algorithmic means, I am impressed. he is well known to be an absolute Convolution guru.

But in the end, what matters to me is what is happening in the sound, and as I said already before Cinematic Rooms imparts more of a practical, tangible room impression, with lots of ability to change the room. Perfect for folly! Probably some music too. R4 and other purely algorithmic reverbs are more vague in how they sound. And that is when they shine when you need that.

But whatever works for you!!!


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 17, 2022)

amazing how hostile this thread has shown to be several times already over a simple question of what to replace R4 with. hehe.. wow.


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## vitocorleone123 (Nov 17, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> Probably some music too.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 17, 2022)

Trying to replace R4/Nimbus with something else I think depends on what you were using R4/Nimbus for to begin with. Perhaps it would be better to discuss a particular use case and which reverbs cover that use case(s), rather then to try to identify a particular plugin which comes closest to doing exactly what R4/Nimbus did before.

Here are other algorithmic reverbs I am going to be trying out to use instead of R4/Nimbus Rolling forward, and would love to hear particular experiences people have had with them or any others, in particular what way you are using these reverbs...and perhaps how you were using R4/Nimbus before specifically. I'm leaning towards FabFilter at the moment as I bought it a long time ago and haven't really put it to use yet.


FabFilter Pro-R


VSL Miracle


Acon


Eventide


Valhalla


NeoVerb (still worth a try to figure it out)


Stratus and Symphony, (_maybe not exactly the same but maybe still fits the bill with some usage? Question is whether iZotope will support them in the future though)_


the ones built into my DAW's


VSL Hybrid (_yes I know its using IR's to_o but worth a try)


Sonnox


Waves, (but I hate their licensing strategy, not gonna lie.)


Lexicon


ReLab


SSL FlexVerb


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## Patryk Scelina (Nov 18, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> just to confirm, was that $49 for the non-surround Stratus and $79 for non-surround Symphony?


Can't tell I actually purchased some bundle crossgrade which includes these reverbs along with other izotope plugins.


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## Russell Anderson (Nov 18, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> Trying to replace R4/Nimbus with something else I think depends on what you were using R4/Nimbus for to begin with. Perhaps it would be better to discuss a particular use case and which reverbs cover that use case(s), rather then to try to identify a particular plugin which comes closest to doing exactly what R4/Nimbus did before.


This, more than exactly emulating Nimbus, is precisely why I started using Cinematic Rooms. Clean spatialization to more easily move particular samples forward or back or larger or smaller when microphones are not enough, and as a general reverb. I still prefer Nimbus' tail sometimes, but I am pretty happy with what else I have as well if I ever need more tail density or something. What I will miss from warp mode is satisfied by Tai Chi.

Relab has been pushing the LX480 update; from my brief time with that plugin I can vouch for its density and levity as well. Really nice reverb. Very... _involved_ to use.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Nov 18, 2022)

Russell Anderson said:


> This, more than exactly emulating Nimbus, is precisely why I started using Cinematic Rooms. Clean spatialization to more easily move particular samples forward or back or larger or smaller when microphones are not enough, and as a general reverb. I still prefer Nimbus' tail sometimes, but I am pretty happy with what else I have as well if I ever need more tail density or something. What I will miss from warp mode is satisfied by Tai Chi.
> 
> Relab has been pushing the LX480 update; from my brief time with that plugin I can vouch for its density and levity as well. Really nice reverb. Very... _involved_ to use.


LX480 is noisy as h... still, also in V4.


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## AudioLoco (Nov 18, 2022)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> LX480 is noisy as h... still, also in V4.


There is a noise off button...  

BTW Relab480 really didn't conquer me. Bought and really regretted. It doesn't sound bad, it just doesn't connect with me. Also lost every blind AB test i have done with other reverbs at the time.
R4 sounded much more pleasing to my ears.

(I don't get Izotope, "hey let's leave behind one of our best products...")


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## Living Fossil (Nov 18, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> Here are other algorithmic reverbs I am going to be trying out to use instead of R4/Nimbus


I guess from the ones you named, Acon is most likely the best alternative.

One thing that many people forget is that Waves' True Verb was way ahead of its time with its stellar ER modelling. I used to use the early reflections without any reverb for years and always loved what they did. It wasn't a complete recreation of reality, but it matched those portions of the room impulse that are relevant for the perception. 
(However, I haven't opened the plugin for years, so it's possible that I would be dissapointed by today's standards.  )


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Nov 18, 2022)

AudioLoco said:


> There is a noise off button...


Oh!  I will have to try it again then! Thanks!!


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## AudioLoco (Nov 18, 2022)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> Oh!  I will have to try it again then! Thanks!!


No problem  

Adding generally noise in plugins is already not the best choice IMHO, companies should keep it off by default at least...

Especially on a send plugin (that's at least how most people use it) it's very irritating...
Sometimes you can hear and see that tiny amount of noise constantly in the background coming up on the master bus and have to hunt for the offending plugin .... 
(It's usually Radiator ....I keep forgetting to save its default setting on "clean"  dough!)

I do love my noise - a lot - but i want to be able to control it....


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## gamma-ut (Nov 18, 2022)

Living Fossil said:


> I used to use the early reflections without any reverb for years and always loved what they did. It wasn't a complete recreation of reality, but it matched those portions of the room impulse that are relevant for the perception.
> (However, I haven't opened the plugin for years, so it's possible that I would be dissapointed by today's standards.  )



Personally, I think it still works pretty well for that purpose, especially with the near-zero CPU. You get a lot of room-oriented control that isn't available in a lot of other reverbs.


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## Henu (Nov 18, 2022)

AudioLoco said:


> There is a noise off button...


V3 is still completely unusable in a quiet setting. Digital mode, v 3.13, noise off.

Horn without reverb:

View attachment reverb_off.mp3


Horn with reverb :
(one string line accidentally doubling it in this example but it doesn't affect the noise)

View attachment reverb_on.mp3


I hope V4 has fixed this (still haven't had time to test it), but somehow I'm not holding my breath.
______________________________________________________________________________

EDIT: Problem seemed to be exist "between chair and keyboard". So don't judge anything on the basis of these samples but scroll down for an explanation! I will nevertheless leave these here to demonstrate the 18 bit grit. :D


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## thorwald (Nov 18, 2022)

Henu said:


> V3 is still completely unusable in a quiet setting. Digital mode, v 3.13, noise off.
> 
> Horn without reverb:
> 
> ...


Wow, this sounds like the reverb is 8-bit. I'm all for lo-fi when it's appropriate, but not in an orchestral setting, especially for the price of the plugin.


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## gamma-ut (Nov 18, 2022)

thorwald said:


> Wow, this sounds like the reverb is 8-bit. I'm all for lo-fi when it's appropriate, but not in an orchestral setting, especially for the price of the plugin.


From the manual:

"The hardware unit that LX480 emulates uses a combination of 6-bit and 16/18-bit processing, which inevitably introduces “grit”, “dirt” and “artefacts” into the calculation of the reverberation (most noticeable with heavy modulation)."

@Henu - how are the emulation settings configured? 18bit on or off? Saturation on or off?


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## Henu (Nov 18, 2022)

Woah, well this is something that had slipped me- very good catch, and had I thought a bit more myself, I should had realized it too. Slow brain, haha!

As the sound was definitely "low- bit" sounding, not surprisingly untapping that 18 bit made the noise instantly disappear, so this was a very good observation. I wonder why that's on as default, though!


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## gamma-ut (Nov 18, 2022)

Henu said:


> As the sound was definitely "low- bit" sounding, not surprisingly untapping that 18 bit made the noise instantly disappear, so this was a very good observation. I wonder why that's on as default, though!



The 18bit truncation is the faithful-emulation setting. It probably causes fewer support problems among the diehard rock-and-roll Lexicon fans to have that as the default.

I don't think it's immediately obvious it's truncation noise (and I don't have magic IR-detecting ears to boot) – as that tends to be more randomly crunchy. But it's possible the source just brought it out because the low level means you're getting a lot of truncations all the time.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 18, 2022)

Living Fossil said:


> I guess from the ones you named, Acon is most likely the best alternative.



I’ve been wanting to try acon for a while. It’s not much more money then the cross grade to symphony.

What else might be added to that list? I also agree about truverb as an ER, I don’t care how old it is


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 22, 2022)

FYI, Acon Vertebrate2 on sale for BF at $29, I got it through Best Service for $22 no tax. Kind of a no brainer for anyone interested.


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## Markrs (Nov 22, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> FYI, Acon Vertebrate2 on sale for BF at $29, I got it through Best Service for $22 no tax. Kind of a no brainer for anyone interested.


Have you found this a good replacement for Nimbus or R4?


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## Living Fossil (Nov 22, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> FYI, Acon Vertebrate2 on sale for BF at $29, I got it through Best Service for $22 no tax. Kind of a no brainer for anyone interested.


How did you get that price at Best service?


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 22, 2022)

It’s probably due to euro conversion rate at the moment but their usd price is $25 and I had a couple best coins to use, no tax


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 22, 2022)

It will be a while before I can really do a fair comparison but I suspect it is not as good as r4 in certain aspects but still a decent reverb at that price a no brainer.


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## vitocorleone123 (Nov 22, 2022)

Living Fossil said:


> How did you get that price at Best service?


You can get Verberate 2 for $25 at JRRShop (could be locale limited). Neoverb for around $22.
GROUP or FORUM will get the lowest, usually, unless it's GROUPAUTOBUY.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 22, 2022)

Plus tax though if you are in USA?


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## jcrosby (Nov 22, 2022)

Acon Verberate's actually a really good suggestion for a replacement. The Vivid Hall has a really lush and clear tail that does somewhat remind me of Nimbus or R4. I got it with Acoustica a few years ago, and to be honest often forget about it, but it is a really really nice reverb that has a very natural sound... People still checking this thread for suggestions should demo it while it's on sale.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 22, 2022)

I also got a customer support email from izotope today and she let it slip that there is going to be some kind of Cyber Monday deal on either Stratus or symphony, she didn't say which.


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## Markrs (Nov 23, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> I also got a customer support email from izotope today and she let it slip that there is going to be some kind of Cyber Monday deal on either Stratus or symphony, she didn't say which.


Stratus has been added to the below bundle which can be bought for *$41.16* at JRRShop using the code: *Group*

I think you are right and we will see more deals on Stratus and Symphony in the future and will likely be well discounted. 

iZotope Holiday Bundle 2022: Neutron 4 Elements | Ozone 10 Elements | Audiolens | Insight 2 | Stratus​


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## Russell Anderson (Nov 23, 2022)

If they're planning on steepening the discounts for Stratus and Symphony, great! Maybe they're planning on silently dispatching those reverbs too in the next 2 years, once enough reluctant EA-enjoyers buy in! Then they can sell Nimbus/R4 _for the third time_ to the same people, in the form of the unreleased Neoverb3D! Now that is strategy. Well met, Izotope, well met!


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## Markrs (Nov 23, 2022)

Russell Anderson said:


> If they're planning on steepening the discounts for Stratus and Symphony, great! Maybe they're planning on silently dispatching those reverbs too in the next 2 years, once enough reluctant EA-enjoyers buy in! Then they can sell Nimbus/R4 _for the third time_ to the same people, in the form of the unreleased Neoverb3D! Now that is strategy. Well met, Izotope, well met!


I do question why they would M1 Stratus and Symphony when the underlining code is very much built of Nimbus and R4. You would think if they were doing Stratus and Symphony they could pretty easily do Nimbus and R4, which does make you wonder if they will keep to their word on these updates.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 23, 2022)

So can someone please explain to me exactly what is the technical explanation for why stratus and symphony were created and how they are different from r4 and nimbus? Well are they actually evolutions from those or are they just completely new reverbs with no connection at all other than perhaps allegedly similar algorithms?

For that matter I have never been able to find a technical description of the difference between r4 and nimbus.


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## Akoustecx (Nov 23, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> So can someone please explain to me exactly what is the technical explanation for why stratus and symphony were created and how they are different from r4 and nimbus? Well are they actually evolutions from those or are they just completely new reverbs with no connection at all other than perhaps allegedly similar algorithms?
> 
> For that matter I have never been able to find a technical description of the difference between r4 and nimbus.


R4 and Nimbus are stereo only, Stratus and Symphony are up to 7.1, at least as far as I understand it, and aimed at surround situations.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 23, 2022)

Markrs said:


> I do question why they would M1 Stratus and Symphony when the underlining code is very much built of Nimbus and R4. You would think if they were doing Stratus and Symphony they could pretty easily do Nimbus and R4, which does make you wonder if they will keep to their word on these updates.



It’s a valid question. I do think that it makes a difference that stratus and symphony seem to be under development under izotope rather than just old code inherited from exponential audio. But the history from exponential audio of evolving Phoenix verb in some ways and rather then call it Phoenix verb 2, 3, etc they branched off a few new product names in a confusing way and ultimately ended up having to Firesale them for super cheap and get purchased by izotope for what must have been a discount price since izotope is not even going to bother to maintain the code or sell them in the future. It’s all kind of confusing for we users and they have compromised trust now as to whether to buy either stratus or symphony since it’s not even very clear exactly why they are the plugins being supported or how they evolved from earlier EA plugins. And their pattern has been instead of providing an upgrade path, rather to splinter off new plugins with similar sound and strange new names, while abandoning the previous ones. So it’s a bad precedent all the way and it’s left to be seen how izotope will behave with regards to these reverb plugins in the future.

But I really do like R4 quite a lot, but it’s just not clear what to do next from here, but I think more discounts will be coming in the future there is no rush


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 23, 2022)

Akoustecx said:


> R4 and Nimbus are stereo only, Stratus and Symphony are up to 7.1, at least as far as I understand it, and aimed at surround situations.



They are sold in two editions. The surround edition is much more expensive. The discounted stratus and symphony are most likely stereo edition also.


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## Markrs (Nov 23, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> They are sold in two editions. The surround edition is much more expensive. The discounted stratus and symphony are most likely stereo edition also.


@Akoustecx is correct, Stratus and Symphony are 7.1. The more expensive version is Stratus3D and Symphony3D which have 24 channels of audio


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 23, 2022)

Thanks for that clarification . So is that verifiably true thet stratus and symphony are otherwise exactly the same as R4 and Nimbus?

Which one is r4 and which one is nimbus? 

And by the way what is the difference between R4 and nimbus?


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## Markrs (Nov 23, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> And by the way what is the difference between R4 and nimbus?


Nimbus is neutral and R4 is based on Lexicon 480L as far as I recall. The creator has an account on this forum and has previously talked about them.

I believe Stratus is like Nimbus and Symphony is like R4 but I had a quick google and couldn't find anything to confirm that.

Here is an article that mentions the relationship between the Reverb plugins from EA









Exponential Audio Release Stratus And Symphony Reverbs - See What Users Think | Pro Tools - The leading website for Pro Tools users


Our friends at Exponential Audio have released their latest reverb plug-ins, Stratus, Stratus 3D, Symphony and Symphony 3D. With the Holiday Sale you can get up to 30% discounts and there are upgrade paths available to for existing owners.




www.pro-tools-expert.com


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## Trash Panda (Nov 23, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> Thanks for that clarification . So is that verifiably true thet stratus and symphony are otherwise exactly the same as R4 and Nimbus?
> 
> Which one is r4 and which one is nimbus?
> 
> And by the way what is the difference between R4 and nimbus?


Character Reverb Line:
R2 --> R4 --> Symphony --> Symphony 3D

Clean Reverb Line:
PhoenixVerb --> Nimbus --> Stratus --> Stratus 3D

For Nimbus/R4 versus Stratus/Symphony, in the UI the main apparent functional distance is more Early Reflection controls, which of course can make a huge a difference.

There is also a larger set of presets and there appear to be some changes in settings across presets, particularly in the Early Reflections area. See Famous Large Hall in R4 versus Symphony 3D.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 23, 2022)

Thanks for those clarifications! From my part I don’t see $79 of value in going from R4 to symphony. Especially if I have no need for surround. If they put the upgrade on a better sale I would be inclined to try it but we shall see.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 23, 2022)

anyone with experience with this one?






Wave Arts







wavearts.com


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## Tanarri (Nov 23, 2022)

WHAT THE HELL? 

I just stumbled upon this:







Isn't Stratus just the more advanced version of Nimbus?!

So why is Izotope not just updating Nimbus and R4 in the same manner?


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## sostenuto (Nov 23, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> anyone with experience with this one?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not yet, but thanks for heads-up & demo link !


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## sostenuto (Nov 23, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> anyone with experience with this one?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wish I had chops to sort this one properly. Trial is enough to consider BF purchase @ $ 74.50 !!


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 23, 2022)

and no tax....


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 23, 2022)

This one is on sale now too: https://www.softube.com/tsar1


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 23, 2022)

This one is also on sale: https://shop.flux.audio/en_US/produ...14*MTY2OTI2MzI4NC4xLjAuMTY2OTI2MzI4NC4wLjAuMA..


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## sostenuto (Nov 23, 2022)

Lots to sort ! No reverb guru _ have several _ MasterVerb UI so cool ! Large list usable spaces. 🤷🏻

THX !


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## José Herring (Nov 23, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> anyone with experience with this one?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Use to use it a lot years ago. It was unique and high quality. Good for emulating rooms if I remember correctly. Great for sound design type reverbs. The tail use to get a little grainy so I didn't find it so good for like hall reverbs in an orchestral setting. It didn't particularly have a natural sound. More like the sound of the Yamaha spx 90 reverb. But, I remember it fondly. 

Given its age I wouldn't really classify it as better than what we have included in our DAWS these days, but at the time circa 2010 when I used it the most, it was a good tool to have.


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## Tanarri (Nov 24, 2022)

Seems like Izotope's Stratus is just Nimbus with more options. Extended ERs, etc. Same with Symphony and R4.

So, no need to find replacements, just buy Stratus and Symphony. You can close this thread now. 

Edit: Found this on KVR:

***
From Michael Carnes - who wrote the code for all the Exponential Audio Reverbs:

"For what it's worth, Stratus and Symphony ARE stereo reverbs if that's what you need. I wrote them so that if you bring them up in a stereo track, they're stereo verbs (w stereo meters, etc). if you bring them up in a 5.1 track, they're 5.1. If you bring them up in 7.1.2 or quad, LCR, etc, then that's what they are. You don't have to do anything special. The CPU load is relative to the number of channels in your track. If you're in surround or immersive formats, you'll see a few more parameters that you won't see in stereo. I made them so that if you've created a user preset in stereo, it's going to work fine in any other format (and vice-versa). Lots of plugs you'll see have different forms for each channel format. That always bugged me. Why not make one version of the plug that will work anywhere you need it to work? So that's what I did.

So even if I'm working in stereo, I'll use Stratus and/or Symphony. They're the best reverbs I ever wrote, so that's what I reach for. So if you can get a good upgrade deal from Izotope (or any plugin site that sells Expo), you might consider grabbing them--even if you're never going to go past two channels. And as I said earlier, I think Izotope might be flexible with their upgrade pricing if you reach them in person. I still know a lot of people over there and they're good folks.
Michael Carnes"
***


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## moon (Nov 24, 2022)

Tanarri said:


> Seems like Izotope's Stratus is just Nimbus with more options. Extended ERs, etc. Same with Symphony and R4.
> 
> So, no need to find replacements, just buy Stratus and Symphony. You can close this thread now.
> 
> ...


It has been documented in this thread that Stratus/Symphony sound markedly different from Nimbus/R4.


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## Tanarri (Nov 25, 2022)

moon said:


> It has been documented in this thread that Stratus/Symphony sound markedly different from Nimbus/R4.


It is possible, Stratus and Symphony have way more and richer ER profiles. Dunno about the tails.

Are any demos here? I love Nimbus, I'd probably buy Stratus if it sounds even better.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 29, 2022)

Aldunate said:


> I am not mad at the loyalty prices for Stratus and Symphony.(49 and 79)



Anyone know where I can find a link for this? it does not show up on my loyalty page.


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## sostenuto (Nov 29, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> Anyone know where I can find a link for this? it does not show up on my loyalty page.


Did not have either, but courteous e-mail to Izotope brought these Links based on Acct info 🤷🏻


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 29, 2022)

If you meant iZotope, I have already tried that and their customer support was useless.


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## storyteller (Nov 29, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> Anyone know where I can find a link for this? it does not show up on my loyalty page.


Pluginboutique


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## sostenuto (Nov 29, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> If you meant iZotope, I have already tried that and their customer support was useless.


You are correct _ Izotope Customer Care. Check PM.


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## Dom (Dec 2, 2022)

Yep, I have also found that I can't get Symphony to sound like R4. In those instances, R4 just sounds deeper and richer.

Indeed Symphony and Stratus have more complex and denser early reflections, which is nice. But the tails are inferior to R4, to my taste.

Is it worth raising this with Izotope, so this can be corrected? I'd be more than happy to continue with Symphony and Stratus, and I like that any instance can easily be upscaled to higher channel formats.

My templates make heavy use of R4 and Nimbus, with around 40 instances, with very light CPU load. Also they don't use up CPU if they receive no audio. Great reverbs.

I also own a Bricasti M7. The Bricasti's presets are really great and way more inspiring than the EA presets, but I've managed to replicate a few of my favourite M7 presets in R4 and Nimbus by ear. Obviously they're not 100% the same but I like both. In comparison, the Seventh Heaven Pro versions of the same presets sound too flat and lifeless.


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## vitocorleone123 (Dec 2, 2022)

Dom said:


> Yep, I have also found that I can't get Symphony to sound like R4. In those instances, R4 just sounds deeper and richer.
> 
> Indeed Symphony and Stratus have more complex and denser early reflections, which is nice. But the tails are inferior to R4, to my taste.
> 
> ...


I think that's what Liquidsonics needs to add to 7HP: more modulation options. Since it's IR-based (done brilliantly, but still IR), having the ability to dial in more movement would be helpful, as in Reverberate 3 (have you tried that one with the Fusion-IR M7 files?). Even if just modulating the reverb tail.


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## Dom (Dec 2, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> I think that's what Liquidsonics needs to add to 7HP: more modulation options. Since it's IR-based (done brilliantly, but still IR), having the ability to dial in more movement would be helpful, as in Reverberate 3 (have you tried that one with the Fusion-IR M7 files?). Even if just modulating the reverb tail.


R4 introduced density modulation, which is nice because it doesn't alter the pitch (like chorus etc does). Maybe it's similar to the old Lexicon spin or wander parameters.

I'd imagine that's quite hard or impossible to apply to a fixed IR.


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## vitocorleone123 (Dec 2, 2022)

Dom said:


> R4 introduced density modulation, which is nice because it doesn't alter the pitch (like chorus etc does). Maybe it's similar to the old Lexicon spin or wander parameters.
> 
> I'd imagine that's quite hard or impossible to apply to a fixed IR.


Reverberate 3 has an ADSR envelope, chorus, delay, EQ, modulation, and all sorts of stuff it can apply to IRs, and it comes with the M7, and several Lexicon high-quality IRs - maybe worth a demo? It's $50 on sale, less if you already have other Liquidsonics stuff. It wouldn't replace the M7 (and there's also M7 Link control for the M7 they have), but software can be more convenient, that's for sure.

Reverberate 3 is more fussy to use, though, than something like 7HP.


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## sostenuto (Dec 2, 2022)

Cool to follow relevant subtleties throughout this Thread ! Not suggesting they are understood fully.
BlkFri sales make it fairly easy to add some different, suggested products, and resulting 'learning'. 
Still not os clear that notable improvement will derive from adding Stratus and/or Symphony to existing R4 & Nimbus. 🤷🏻 Feel like 'yo-yo' re. 7H ! _ Good-Bad-Ok-Not-Why not .......... 🤪


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## vitocorleone123 (Dec 4, 2022)

TAL Reverb 4 was recently released. I haven't tried it yet, but it's free.


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## LinusW (Sunday at 5:23 AM)

The crossgrades from any Exponential Audio reverb are now on sale. Stratus, Stratus 3D, Symphony and Symphony 3D. 






Buy iZotope VST Plugins, iZotope Instruments and Effects, Download


Buy iZotope VST Plugins, iZotope Instruments and Effects, Download Online, iZotope Free Demo Plugins from Pluginboutique.com




www.pluginboutique.com









Buy iZotope VST Plugins, iZotope Instruments and Effects, Download


Buy iZotope VST Plugins, iZotope Instruments and Effects, Download Online, iZotope Free Demo Plugins from Pluginboutique.com




www.pluginboutique.com


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## RudyS (Sunday at 5:58 AM)

LinusW said:


> The crossgrades from any Exponential Audio reverb are now on sale. Stratus, Stratus 3D, Symphony and Symphony 3D.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ah nice. I might pick up stratus as a replacement for nimbus.


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## LinusW (Sunday at 6:54 AM)

Note: if you want the 3D versions then purchase in two steps. 
_(The crossgrade to Stratus 3D is £155.23)_
Get regular Stratus crossgrade £37.66 + Stratus to Stratus 3D crossgrade £76.24 = *£113.9 *


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## LinusW (Sunday at 7:19 AM)

If you want both Symphony 3D and Stratus 3D, the full bundle without any crossgrades needed is £242 including VAT 








Exponential Audio 3D Reverb Bundle


Plugin Bundle (Download) Consistsof Exponential Audio Symphony3D and Exponential Audio Stratus3D, Algorithmic high-end reverbs for surround and 3D audio applications, Support for Atmos Bed, Extended Atmos (7.1.6), Auro 9.1, 11.1, 13.1, NHK 22.2...




www.thomann.de


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## Justin L. Franks (Sunday at 7:55 AM)

RudyS said:


> Ah nice. I might pick up stratus as a replacement for nimbus.


Stratus is also in the Holiday Bundle for $49 with Ozone Elements, Neutron 4 Elements, Audiolens, and Insight. Only until the 10th though.









iZotope Holiday Bundle


iZotope Holiday Bundle, iZotope Holiday Bundle plugin, buy iZotope Holiday Bundle, download iZotope Holiday Bundle trial, iZotope iZotope Holiday Bundle




www.pluginboutique.com


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## Justin L. Franks (Sunday at 7:56 AM)

So is Symphony basically R4 repackaged?


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## Soundbed (Sunday at 8:04 AM)

cedricm said:


> Neoverb may use the same algorithms but most R4 parameters are not available. So unless you're happy with the presets or the assistant, it's frustrating.


Yeah sadly I could not use Neoverb in place of R4. I use Cinematic Rooms now.

I will say if you’re looking for an inexpensive algo, I used H-Reverb from Waves quite successfully for a long while.






My favorite preset to start with was *Yoad Nevo >> Hall Of Fame.*

I downloaded demos of VSS3 and others and created my own presets in H-Verb that sounded close to me, and it gave me a lot of mileage (without shelling out the cash for VSS3). Understood that a lot of folks don’t like Waves though. It’s $35 now. 🤷🏻‍♂️


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## LinusW (Sunday at 8:07 AM)

Justin L. Franks said:


> So is Symphony basically R4 repackaged?


Symphony is larger than R4 just like R4 was larger than R2. 
So killing off the smaller versions is just because it was harder to maintain them as 4 products with different names.


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## vitocorleone123 (Sunday at 8:40 AM)

LinusW said:


> Symphony is larger than R4 just like R4 was larger than R2.
> So killing off the smaller versions is just because it was harder to maintain them as 4 products with different names.


People in this thread and/or elsewhere have already established that they don't sound the same, though. It's not just add more features onto a reverb, they're different reverbs.

(I'm writing based on what I've read, not experienced - I moved on to Liquidsonics reverbs)


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## Dewdman42 (Sunday at 8:46 AM)

They are not exactly the same reverbs, but there is a lot of similarity with the same kind of control and very similar sound. if you like R4, you will probably like Symphony unless you have a requirement for it to sound exactly the same.

izotope will only be supporting Symphony/Stratus rolling forward. if you like the workflow of those classic exponential audio reverbs, those are the ones to have and they will serve well as R4/Nimbus may have in the past.


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## LinusW (Sunday at 10:19 AM)

vitocorleone123 said:


> People in this thread and/or elsewhere have already established that they don't sound the same, though.


So did they import/export a R2 preset into R4 and then into Symphony? 
Or just call up the default large hall and compare? 
As the algorithms has evolved, the presets has to take new calculations into account.


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## Dewdman42 (Sunday at 10:34 AM)

my understanding is that some people tried to load presets from R4 and while they loaded and functioned, they did not sound exactly the same. the implication is that if you have old projects with R4/Nimbus included in the mix...at some point in the future those plugins will stop working, the only option would be to replace them with some other reverb plugin. Symphony/Stratus would probably be the closest replacement but wouldn't, technically speaking, drop into the plugin slots and sound quite exactly the same, though they would function similarly and I would argue you could probably dial it in close enough pretty easily.

Symphony and Stratus have improvements and changes in the algorithms according to the developer. I don't think they were ever intended to be drop in upgrade replacements for R4/Nimbus. They are next evolution and sound different subtly or not. The main problem is that izotope has decided not to support any further development of R4/Nimbus. They continue to work on my Monterey system, but at some point in the future they will not work, and they will not ever be Apple Silicon. Windows users MIGHT get more time out of them. Really, Izotope should continue supporting them, but they have chosen not to...and to support only Stratus and Symphony with software updates in the future. 

I feel Stratus and Symphony have very similar qualities as R4/Nimbus, which were quite popular for years, for a good reason. Stratus and Symphony continue to have that pedigree. But no, they are not exactly drop in replacements.


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## Dom (Tuesday at 2:00 AM)

How does one load R4 user presets into Symphony? 

The only instructions I've found were from Phoenix to Stratus: https://support.izotope.com/hc/en-u...-or-from-R2Surround-to-Symphony-including-3D-

But R4 doesn't seem to have that export option?

So far, for comparing R4 with Symphony, I've matched the parameters by hand. But I never managed to get them to sound the same. To me R4 sounded fuller and deeper than Symphony.

I've got a few of my own R4 presets that I like. For me, the Exponential Audio presets were never really that great. 

In comparison, most of the Bricasti presets are brilliant and inspiring, so I created R4 and Nimbus presets by ear-matching Bricasti presets.


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## gamma-ut (Tuesday at 2:27 AM)

Symphony will import the .xml format R4 presets directly.

Hunting them down is the tricky bit. On Mac any user presets will be in ~/Library/Application Support/ExponentialAudio/R4/User


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## Dom (Tuesday at 4:04 AM)

gamma-ut said:


> Symphony will import the .xml format R4 presets directly.


That worked, thanks!

Now, with the import, I managed to get Symphony to sound close enough to R4. The tail sounds near enough the same. 

As the early reflections are much denser on Symphony, and the R4 patterns are not available, , I make the following adjustments.

Early Attack: approx 7% lower
Early Time: approx 50% longer
Early Slope: approx 50% higher
Early Dist: set to Left-Right (seems to default to Surround)

This is using Symphony in stereo, using the "Smooth" early pattern and on R4 the "R4 II" early pattern.

Now I'm happy enough with Symphony.


----------

