# And yet another Star Wars analysis



## PeterN (Mar 3, 2018)

Hey. Heres some thought in monologue, but if anyone has any suggestion it would be great to hear.

A bit of background first.

I compose melodic stuff on piano and not until last year I wanted to learn how to orchestrate my piano compositions. Its about time (!) Have been composing melodic themes since I first got my fingers on the piano at the age of 16, but there was none of these virtual instruments really available then. So they were always piano compositions. Its outside the typical chord progressions, I move the melody to different directions intentionally, not only because I can, but because it makes it more interesting. And its great to start a piece in Am, and move through melodies, and different chords, so you have it in A major at some point, go through a variety of chords, and yet be able to end it on Am again. The stuff sound great when just played on piano, but the orchestration is - sometimes - and too often - the though part. Sounds familiar? Have enrolled in some courses but none of them really hit the area of “my field”, which are compositions in the type of (to use a familiar melody here) John Williams, Across the Stars (the melody) and stuff like Shindlers List. Its always Star Wars or some similar grand stuff you found being taught and analyzed.

Is there any suggestion of a course or other way, where to start to dig deeper, to get better in this particular area when it comes to orchestration? Why is there not a single analysis of, say, Schindlers List theme out there? Yes, I have heard of transcribing, but Im too stubborn to transcribe. Any suggestions/thoughts welcome.


----------



## tack (Mar 3, 2018)

PeterN said:


> Yes, I have heard of transcribing, but Im too stubborn to transcribe.


I'm afraid the best advice anyone could give you isn't links to courses and videos but instead to work on this hangup.

Just transcribe one or two bars of something cool. Do a couple bars a week. Start off easy by just trying to pick out the instruments and how they are layered. Which instruments have the melodic focal point? What ranges are they playing in and how does that relate to those instruments' comfort range? Then start paying attention to dynamics and articulation.

I daresay even as a relative beginner you can do that much in about 15 minutes, and that time will shrink drastically as you begin to internalize more about the instruments of the orchestra.

Then after a few weeks of that you can start easing into more of the compositional stuff. Play the melody out as a voice on piano. Note the intervalic relationships between notes and other qualities like if the melody outlining out the underlying chord. Include in the routine sketch out the chord progressions. Then eventually try to hear the voicings.

All I'm saying is you don't need to boil the ocean in transcription your first time. If you're anything like me, your stubbornness may come from a place of laziness and intimidation and the Homer Simpson wisdom of "if something's too hard it's not worth doing." I found taking smaller bites was something that helped me make progress.

Otherwise my only other answer to your question is Mike Verta's masterclasses, and no one is going to constantly nag and harp about transcription as much as him.


----------



## PeterN (Mar 3, 2018)

Thanks for thoughts. Transcribing. Going to keep fighting a few months still without transcribing, but I might end up there one day. If I cant go around it.

I have another suspicion, and that is that maybe some songs are not meant to be orchestrated, but rahter meant to be mainly on piano and can never be orchestrated so that an orchestra would do it better than the piano.

The next test will be to actually have the song/theme in piano and add orchestra as background. Now I have tried for over a year to cut away the piano, and replace it wth orchestra, and the result is never better than the initial - how to say - intimate and emotional ”beautiful” - piano song. Not even if its the best cello out there, or the most soaring strings.

Big fan of Verta here but why never analysis on, say, Schindlers List. If I could, I would ban the Star Wars theme, and anyone who analyzes it during the next 100 years will be thrown in jail.


----------



## tack (Mar 3, 2018)

One YouTube channel you may find helpful is FilmScoreAnalysis.

I don't think he's done Schindler's List yet, but there's definitely plenty of not-Star Wars


----------



## PeterN (Mar 3, 2018)

tack said:


> One YouTube channel you may find helpful is FilmScoreAnalysis.
> 
> I don't think he's done Schindler's List yet, but there's definitely plenty of not-Star Wars



Thanks, tack. Those videos new to me, will check those videos as soon as can get rid of this prepaid 4G connection area. Looks interesting indeed.


----------



## Rob (Mar 3, 2018)

PeterN said:


> Hey. Heres some thought in monologue, but if anyone has any suggestion it would be great to hear.
> 
> A bit of background first.
> 
> ...



can you post a piano score of a composition of yours? That way it would be easier to see if it is so "pianistic" that it cannot benefit from an orchestration or on the contrary it could take on a new level...


----------



## PeterN (Mar 3, 2018)

Rob said:


> can you post a piano score of a composition of yours? That way it would be easier to see if it is so "pianistic" that it cannot benefit from an orchestration or on the contrary it could take on a new level...



Problem is the compositions (at the moment) feel too personal for me to put out publicly on common ground, and ”sound very good”, without trying to brag, I dont want anyone to take a single idea from any chord progressions and melodies I got - theres been dripped blood behind some of them - until I have them secured and hopefully published. Yea, its not like theres some new sweet unknown fruit found in the rainforest, not saying its that unique, but - to make a drastic analogy - would you expect Lennon to have put out ”Strawberry Fields” for analysis on some common field before it was secured. I know people in China (sorry China) who take others stuff from Internet like picking an apple from a tree, hopefully you can understand this viewpoint.

Im thinking about hiring someone for helping in analysis, so it can be made in private. Do pass me a note if theres anyone who does this kind of job.

And by the way, that being said, I get your point. Without hearing any, its difficult to give suggestions. Its a good point, Im not denying it.


----------



## zolhof (Mar 3, 2018)

Here are two great books to aid you on your noble quest:

On the Track - Fred Karlin (foreword by Williams himself) - _AI, Close Encounters, ET, Harry Potter, Jaws, Minority Report, Patriot, SW_
Anthology Vol. 3 - Norman Ludwin - _Jaws, 1941, Born on the Fourth of July, Jurassic Park_
I'm sure there are others, but these should keep you busy for a while.


----------



## Saxer (Mar 3, 2018)

Might be easier for you to work on material that already exists. Look for classical music written on piano and later orchestrated. Best known example is probably 'Pictures on an Exhibition' by Mussorgsky and orchestrated by Ravel. Same with piano based pop or jazz songs. Tons of Beatles songs are arranged in any possible way. Might not match your style and preference but is shows the principals of transferring piano patterns to orchestra. Same vice versa: play piano reductions of Jurassic Park or other orchestra work and compare it to the original.


----------



## merlinhimself (Mar 3, 2018)

tack said:


> Just transcribe one or two bars of something cool. Do a couple bars a week. Start off easy by just trying to pick out the instruments and how they are layered. Which instruments have the melodic focal point? What ranges are they playing in and how does that relate to those instruments' comfort range? Then start paying attention to dynamics and articulation.


Totally worth it. When I decided to really get into scoring I tasked myself with transcribing Beethovens 5th (4th Movement) as I think the harder something is the more growth I usually see. I never finished it, I think I only made it about 40 bars through, but it took awhile, mostly because I had never done this before. That more than anything gave me a great starting foundation for orchestration, along with some books as well.


----------



## PeterN (Mar 3, 2018)

Saxer said:


> Might be easier for you to work on material that already exists. Look for classical music written on piano and later orchestrated. Best known example is probably 'Pictures on an Exhibition' by Mussorgsky and orchestrated by Ravel. Same with piano based pop or jazz songs. Tons of Beatles songs are arranged in any possible way. Might not match your style and preference but is shows the principals of transferring piano patterns to orchestra. Same vice versa: play piano reductions of Jurassic Park or other orchestra work and compare it to the original.



What a great suggestion. I think that Beatles suggestion is genius, just to see how some of their stuff been orchestrated, rather than jumping straight into Williams or Beethoven. Now thats a course for someone to make: orchestrating Beatles. And how would YOU orchestrate ”Let it Be”. Competition please  Spitfire? Anyone?


----------



## PeterN (Mar 3, 2018)

Even Im ready to throw in a hundred bucks in the prize money for the ”Let it Be orchestration competition”.

Can someone please pick this up, rather than the - again and again and again - trailer movie stuff.

Go noble.


----------



## MatFluor (Mar 4, 2018)

Chiming in very briefly:

Transcribe. Courses can only frontally teach you a tiny bit. Transcribe what you love, make mockups, compose stuff, try to arrange and orchestrate, fail, learn, rinse, repeat.

Others here have put very good resources. Grand stuff is popular (and you learn a ton about orchestration there), small stuff is subject to much more choice. Transcribe or (if you get the score) make score reductions to see the approach the composer has taken.

If your stuff sounds too pianistic, think about why it does. What Idioms in your playing are hard to translate (thinking of the percussive nature of a piano). What things are not easily doable on piano, that you admire in pieces of others? Transcribing doesn't mean "the full soundtrack from A-Z with all details". It's about getting the concept, training your eyes and ears. Transcribing two bars of an orchestration you really like can yield all you need.

E.g. in the main Schindlers List theme - if you can compose already to a certain degree - you just need to listen to it - very few instruments in there. Listen carefully what is the nature of the sound, what does it do with your emotions? Transcribe a small passage and listen very detailled to see how the voices are distributed. I like Transcribing into short score, that way I see chords more easily and can divide. If you're used to read a full score, go ahead of course (I'm not that used to it, short score fits me far more).

EDIT: (Why do I always hit the button when I'm still thinking...)
I usually reduce to 3-4 staves. Proper Piano reduction would be 2, I'm not a pianist at all (I'm a longtime guitarist), but with 3-4 staves I can distinguish the essential things - Melody, Harmony, Bass (and extra figurations or the like).
Orchestration and good composition for Orchestra also means trying to write idiomatically for the instruments - maybe a good piano line should stay at the piano, or it is translatable to a flute or Trumpet? Where are the strong ranges there? What is the quality? The piano is ideal for composition and sketching, I personally think of it as "a neutral sound", whereas Orchestra instruments all have a certain "character".
When you sketch on piano, it's like trying to lay out a theater scene with cardboard figurines - neutral, but you see all the details. Then you take real actors, costumes and scenery, and give emotion to it, and variables. Maybe the woman there is taller than your figurine, or she is blonde, which adds visual color.
As said, I'm not a pianist and consider it's sound as neutral. A piano can be played very emotionally, but that's a different playing style to Orchestration. Again: My opinion, I don't want to get trampled by pianists now


----------



## jonathanprice (Mar 4, 2018)

+1 on all the suggestions above. I'd add that you not compose at the piano. Compose in your head, using the colors of the orchestra. Even just a phrase to begin. Once you have that composed and orchestrated in your head, use the piano if you need to to transcribe that.


----------



## PeterN (Mar 4, 2018)

Thanks to everyone for replies. I think that Beatles orchestration suggestion stands out, but Im thankful for all the good suggestions here. The reason I am intuitively curious about the Beatles orchestrations, is that I come from ”pop music background”, not a classical one. Im sure there must be many like me out there too, i.e. you have started composing pop style ballads and then turned them more to film/compositions in general. I think the market in the courses are missing this out, and just from a spontane viewpoint, I believe there should be plenty interest in a course like this. (Im talking about video courses here, that book suggestion - particularly Norman Ludwin - sure look interesting too.)

Heres another question, if anyone would have any opinion would be curious to hear.

This is something I have started to try out myself recently. Rather than slowing down/changing tempo, Im changing time signature. So, lets say, I have the melody, and I tap through it and change it to 5/4 even 3/4 and so on, to make it more flowing. Then I make that to a time signature chart and add in Logic Pro X. Does this sound like a good idea, or is slowing down/changing the tempo what is a better way? Or maybe using both? Im keen about trying to make the orchestra more flowing by changing time signatures, is there anyone with an opinion on this? Im hoping this way could compensate for the - how to say - more flowing playing style on piano, orchestrating in, say, 4/4 takes away something. I see Mike Verta doesnt even use time signature in his DAW/sequencer on some stuff - he just plays it in as natural - but not that pro here, at least yet.

Thanks again to all for great suggestions. And hopefully someone talented out there will make an ”Orchestrating Beatles” course - you will make thousand$. (Stay away from Star Wars - its banned).


----------



## PeterN (Mar 4, 2018)

jonathanprice said:


> +1 on all the suggestions above. I'd add that you not compose at the piano. Compose in your head, using the colors of the orchestra. Even just a phrase to begin. Once you have that composed and orchestrated in your head, use the piano if you need to to transcribe that.



This is a very interesting suggestion. For someone who has always been composing on piano, and usually with the left hand doing arpeggio style as rhythm as chords, this is a though one. As soon as I change it to strings or woods doing the rhythm and chords, which the left hand on the piano does, it feels its missing out something. Yes, harp can do that, but it almost always goes back to piano. But This sounds like a very interesting suggestion. Anyway, anyway, time for some experimenting. Again. Thanks.


----------



## HeliaVox (Mar 4, 2018)

One of the texts we used in my orchestration class was 


Such a great book.


----------



## NoamL (Mar 4, 2018)

PeterN said:


> Im thinking about hiring someone for helping in analysis, so it can be made in private. Do pass me a note if theres anyone who does this kind of job.



Hi @PeterN

I'm an orchestrator with lots of experience that may apply to this. My last project was orchestrating a 90 minute long concert that involved a large symphony orchestra, three choirs and an indie band. The composer came from a pop/rock background and had lots of great ideas, but did not read music. So he turned to me to transform his MIDI sketches into full orchestrations.

*Please send me a PM* if you're interested in working together and we can figure out some next steps.

The key to figuring out subtle, nuanced, singing orchestrations is really how to get the most variety, and the most specifically "right" sounds emotionally, out of the strings and woodwinds. I agree with you that there's a lot of material out there covering fanfares and bombastic music, to the extent that "HOW TO WRITE LIKE JOHN WILLIAMS" videos seem to always be about the first chord of Star Wars.

Please allow me to share this quote from Conrad Pope who has worked with John Williams, Howard Shore, Alexandre Desplat and others.

_"With JW['s sketches], every detail is generally accounted for: even in the string divisi and in the disposition of brass. The only discretion an “orchestrator” or copyist truly has is in the voicing of the woodwinds - and even there it is generally only with regard to their role in an “orchestral” tutti. *The reason for engaging an orchestrator with respect to JW, really, is in the woodwind writing.* As anyone who has heard or read what I have to say on the topic: the strings almost always balance themselves regardless of bad writing. The brass can find a “blend” in spite of a composer’s efforts to achieve the opposite, HOWEVER the woodwinds require attention if one seeks to achieve and blend and balance within that particular choir of the orchestra. More than the “instrumental” assignments in JW’s sketches, what I find more important in making a correct and balanced orchestration are his precise indications of dynamics and articulations. Here he reveals that he is a true master, not just of composition but rather of the mechanics of the orchestra and orchestral performance. *For the most part, “register” and dynamic remain the most determinative factors of choice of instrument (particularly with regard to the woodwinds).* These dimensions convey to an orchestrator more the weighting and balancing the orchestra to the musical idea presented—and provide a touchstone for the orchestrator to know if everything is “correct” in the sketch..."_

Inspired by reading this quote several months ago, I have been working on a tool for new composers that helps make the tone-color differences of the different woodwind instruments in different registers much more clear and understandable, kind of an all in one reference. Should we work together, I'd be happy to let you have the beta version of the tool for free as long as you do not share it.

Looking forward to speaking with you! -Noam


----------



## Anthony (Mar 4, 2018)

tack said:


> One YouTube channel you may find helpful is FilmScoreAnalysis.
> 
> I don't think he's done Schindler's List yet, but there's definitely plenty of not-Star Wars


Wow, this site is a fantastic orchestration resource! Thanks for sharing.


----------



## PeterN (Mar 4, 2018)

NoamL said:


> Hi @PeterN
> 
> *Please send me a PM* if you're interested in working together and we can figure out some next steps.



I will get in touch with you Noam, great you shared your service contact and informed about your speciality. I like the book suggestions given here too, but this was certainly welcomed also in addition. I got two other PM’s I get in touch with you all in a day or two.


----------



## Fry777 (Mar 4, 2018)

MatFluor said:


> I like Transcribing into short score, that way I see chords more easily and can divide. If you're used to read a full score, go ahead of course (I'm not that used to it, short score fits me far more).



Sorry for my ignorance, but what do you call "short score" ?
Is it the process of transcribing into only 3-4 staves, simplifying the score ? Or are you referring to something else here?
Thanks


----------



## MatFluor (Mar 4, 2018)

Fry777 said:


> Sorry for my ignorance, but what do you call "short score" ?
> Is it the process of transcribing into only 3-4 staves, simplifying the score ? Or are you referring to something else here?
> Thanks



Ah, sorry. Yeah, a short score is essentially a simplification/reduction from a full score into a couple of staves. E.g. FilmScoreAnalysis makes shortscores (with tons of annotations, since you know - analysis ) The goal really is to reduce the whole thing into a few staves to get a good overview, ideally with everything in it, getting a sense of the structure (vertically and horizontally) and the important parts.

For example, if you have a melody, that is played by Horns and Trumpets in Unison, doubled by flutes, piccolo and maybe celli - you can put that easily into one single staff instead of five, and just annotate the parts. Here is a small example (blatantly screenshotted from FilmScoreAnalysis, Avengers)






Here, 4 staves for the whole thing - Annotated which instrument does what. Granted, there are more nice examples, but e.g. in the third staff you see the laid out chord very nicely, this single staff would in full score be 6+ staffs. When I do it, I also make small annotations on how the voices are distributed.

Alain Mayrand does this very nicely in his ScoreClub.net courses, unfortunately I can't find anything "open" to screenshot here, but I think that makes it clear.


----------

