# Do you Compose & Mix with any inserts on the master buss



## kfirpr (Feb 10, 2015)

I used to put only a limiter and raise the volume by 7db so I can hear better, but someone suggest I should not put anything on the master bus and raise volume from my soundcard mixer only.. Do you agree with this?


----------



## Lassi Tani (Feb 10, 2015)

I don't put anything on the master bus. I try to keep mixing and mastering separate. I read somewhere that you should mix in moderate volume, definitely not loud. I found it, therecordingrevolution:

"Let’s be honest, any mediocre mix can sound exciting when the volume is cranked. But how does that really help you? It doesn’t. So don’t mix at loud volumes. Instead we need to know if our mixes hold together when the volume is turned way down. If they fall apart then, we have a problem.
Turn It Up At The End

Besides the obvious physical benefits to your ears of mixing at lower volumes, your mix is really what will benefit from this process. You want to make sure your mix still has punch, clarity, and good balance at low volumes. If so, you’re in the clear. Then you can crank up the volume at the end of a mix and feel good about yourself. But not before!"


----------



## olajideparis (Feb 10, 2015)

Only a waves PAZ analyzer or frequency analyzer of some sort to make sure that I am not creating mix problems for myself down the line.


----------



## kfirpr (Feb 10, 2015)

sekkosiki
That's an excellent reply thanks!

olajideparis
what can you see in the PAZ analyzer? phase issues?


----------



## ghostnote (Feb 10, 2015)

Good question. I'd rather like to keep my volume knob at one position. Would love to hear other opinions on this.


----------



## olajideparis (Feb 10, 2015)

PAZ analyzer lets you monitor peak/rms levels, phase and frequency. During the composition process I am only paying attention to the frequencies, making sure that I am not building up an excess in a particular frequency range or neglecting others. One of the primary mistakes I made early on was trying to boost frequencies in the mixing phase that were not actually there, so these days I make sure to think about that before I get to the end of a project and realize that I have left some frequencies under represented.


----------



## olajideparis (Feb 10, 2015)

Regarding Keeping your violin knobs or any other knobs at one position the way to deal with that is to rely on expression CC11 instead of volume automation. It takes good programming habits to do but I think its the most "correct" way of handling that issue.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 10, 2015)

Always: EQuality -> Satin -> Elephant


----------



## muk (Feb 10, 2015)

Interesting question. I'd love to hear what some of the pros here are using. I'm just a hobbyist, so my opinion won't count much, but the only thing I'm using is a brickwall limiter at the last insert position of the master.


----------



## Lassi Tani (Feb 10, 2015)

Oh yes, some frequency analyzer tool on master could be good to have, and good to check that often. I think I could use Fabfilter Pro-Q2 for that (not doing EQuing but just analyzing frequences).


----------



## Pasticcio (Feb 10, 2015)

I never raise the volume in mixing stage. I try to keep the master track around -12db, but I might put some slight compression and EQ if I can justify it as a mixing decision.


----------



## dinerdog (Feb 10, 2015)

For many years: PSP MixPressor + Logic Channel EQ, then Logic Compressor + Channel EQ, and now for the last several years just Ozone (one of the gentle settings). All this in Logic 7,8,9 & X.

Before Plug-Ins, it was the beloved Finalizer.


----------



## Marius Masalar (Feb 10, 2015)

My mixbuss will have all manner of things on it by the time I'm through, but not while writing...everything is bypassed until I'm ready to start polishing the sound. Insight is a possible exception if I need to keep an eye on my metering.

After the writing is more or less finished, I re-activate the plugins. Slate VCC is on all my channels, so that mixbuss plugin gets activated, then some sort of glue compression depending on the mood, perhaps a mastering EQ, a tape sim or similar harmonic mojo maker, and then a limiter.

The individual channels have plugins active throughout the process though.


----------



## reddognoyz (Feb 10, 2015)

I always add mastering after the fact


----------



## kfirpr (Feb 10, 2015)

I'm glad I brought it up


----------



## TheUnfinished (Feb 10, 2015)

I pop a particular channel strip plug on my mix buss, plus an EQ if I want to banish some of the lowest frequencies.

To me these are mixing choices though, rather than mastering.


----------



## dinerdog (Feb 10, 2015)

TheUnfinished - Exactly!


----------



## Dryden.Chambers (Feb 10, 2015)

UA & Britson here

two flavors:

Modern sheen 1) UA Massive Passive, UA Variable Mu, UA Sonnox, UA Ampex, Britson

Vintage warm 2) UA Pultec, UA Fairchild, UA Ampex, Britson


----------



## pavolbrezina (Feb 10, 2015)

kfirpr @ Tue Feb 10 said:


> I used to put only a limiter and raise the volume by 7db so I can hear better, but someone suggest I should not put anything on the master bus and raise volume from my soundcard mixer only.. Do you agree with this?



If you need to hear more detail just turn the volume knob :D


----------



## gsilbers (Feb 10, 2015)

depends on what you are doing. 

if its more pop or styles that need to be louder and less dynamic range then having compressor/eq and other processing like maximizers in the mix bus is a good idea. 
The idea is to have them when mixing and to A/B the mix with and wihout them. usually snares and cymbals will sound much louder (not in levels but actual loudness) with these processors. then when mastering the engineer will add their own mastering chain (or you do your mastering) which might be different of course but it helps to gauge the mix going through a mastering chain. 

if its film and more dynamic music then tiny amounts of glue compressor will work, as mentioned in prevous threads.


----------



## charlieclouser (Feb 10, 2015)

I always have master bus processing turned on, even (especially) while auditioning samples, building instrument maps, templates, etc. This way I don't get any nasty surprises when applying that stuff at a later point. It really helps me see how various sounds will interact once the mix gets pounding and many massive sounds are all fighting for space.

For many years it was my beloved MasterX5, which is a 5-band "finalizer" plugin with 10ms lookahead, running on PowerCore for low latency. Since PowerCore is on the way out I've been auditioning every mastering plugin out there to find a replacement, and most don't come close to the transparency and "glue" of Mx5, but so far the top three winners are:

UAD Precision series - very hi-fi, but not enough bands to allow me to isolate the sub-bass booms from the pitched area of low frequencies, where the "note" of the cellos and stuff lies. Big sub booms cause some pumping in that "note" area. 

Ozone Advanced - With a bit of tweaking it can get me the sound I like, but with most of the IRC settings in the maximizer section the latency is too great to play through. Although the transient recovery and harmonic enhancer features are nice options, and it is otherwise very full featured, the fact that the multi band compressor is only four bands and not five is a little restrictive for how I like to work. While not quite right for "play-through" use, this is often my choice for after-the-fact mastering use.

And the surprise winner is: dum-dah-dah-dummmm….. Waves L3-LL Multiband. This is the "low-latency" version of the five-band L3 limiter. All of the various other "L" products seem to be missing some level of control that I need, but L-3LL Multi gets me where I want to be. With five bands I can separate the frequencies into boom, bass, honk, clank, and fizz (which is how I characterize the five bands), and it has that magical auto makeup gain that I like so much about Mx5. Latency is quite acceptable for real-time play-through, and it offers enough control over release times and stuff to prevent chattering or distortion. I can tweak the separation slopes between bands to optimize interaction between the bands and eliminate pumping in the bass band resulting from big sub booms, and definition in high bands is very good. While it is just a limiter and is missing all the fancy stuff from Ozone, so far it seems to be my favorite replacement for my beloved Mx5. 

Going forward I will probably use L-3LL Multi on my stem sub masters to keep everything lined up, and if time permits switch to Ozone for final printing - although on most tv scores time does not permit, so it will probably be L3 keeping the lid on all the way to broadcast. I will be experimenting with using just the harmonic enhancer from Ozone after L3-LL to see if that keeps latency low enough for play-through, since I like what the H.E. can do to liven up things like plucky instruments and high percussion.

With the announcement of a technology partnership between TC and UA, I am holding out hope that Mx5 will someday appear on UAD cards, and if it does I'm all over it…. but for now I'm back on the Waves train I guess.

As to the idea of using pre-set volume levels on the monitoring system - ABSOLUTELY. You'll notice that on the dub stages they generally don't even have a volume knob for the monitors; it's all calibrated and fixed in stone. I've adopted this technique at my studio - with the Dynaudio AIR system the volume remote has three pre-settable volume levels, and I've set these to "very quiet", "normal", and "very loud". Ninety percent of the time I'm on the "normal" setting, and a strange thing happens after years of working this way: my ears got so accustomed to how loud things "should" sound that I can set up individual instrument volume levels while building a template without having any music playing, and when I put together a cue most of the instruments are already basically at the right volume, with only small adjustments needed to polish the mix. I NEVER would have thought this would happen as a result of something simple like using a fixed monitoring level, but it really works. It took a few years of using these fixed levels for everything to sink in, but now it really saves a lot of time and ear strain.

I still use the "very quiet" setting to hear if anything is poking out of the mix (like a clave or triangle or something) that's not apparent at "normal" volumes, and I use the "very loud" setting to hear "in between" the sounds of a busy mix and check how really slamming passages will hear in "turbo" mode, but 90% of the time I'm on "normal" mode. Works great.


----------



## Tatu (Feb 10, 2015)

Sometimes nothing, sometimes a low pass and/or limiter, sometimes - way too often - everything. :mrgreen:


----------



## AR (Feb 10, 2015)

Satin (with a personal preset) then the Waves 5.1 Manager (with a slight 0.08 widener) then routing to L360 Surround Limiter which I check back every time that it compresses nada.


----------



## gsilbers (Feb 10, 2015)

C M Dess @ Tue Feb 10 said:


> Hear's a weird question for this immortal topic.
> 
> Why does some master bus clipping sound "ok" in logic and bouncing sound ok as well with a clip (red +6). But bouncing in cubase with a clipped signal results in a file with audible clipped tone, meanwhile the clipped portion didn't have an audible clipping noise in cubase. This is the reason I ceased use of cubase, maybe it was just a pan law setting or something.
> 
> To answer the question, I have some things on a "pre-master 2 bus" that goes to a final master bus that has nothing on it. I could have one more clip-protection plug on that but I haven't needed to go there. The reason for the "pre-master 2 bus" is so I can bounce effects treatments on the entire mix (or selections) as desired and simply record it into another bus from the arrange page. I use a template I call a quadrant because it's divided into four subgroups prior to the pre-master 2 bus. 2 of the main sub-groups MEL and PRC have shelving EQ and a sprinkle of analog saturation. The pre-master 2 bus the same plugs with lighter settings.




remember that clipping (audio over 0db) results in extreme distortion. that is the definition of clipping in the digital domain. 
logic and other daws do some tom foolery :mrgreen: in the code so this doesn't happen. pro tools used to do result in extreme noise, not sure if now.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 10, 2015)

First things first.

I think it's an unusually bad idea to use a limiter to raise the volume so you can hear your mix. You won't know which way is up.

Run pink noise through your monitors, borrow a sound pressure level meter (or use one in your iPhone), and set the monitor level where you want it. I like 92dB for stereo.

That's your reference. I personally don't put a limiter in the path until the end, in fact I don't use a bus compressor until everything is close either.


----------



## kfirpr (Apr 22, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Feb 10 said:


> First things first.
> 
> I think it's an unusually bad idea to use a limiter to raise the volume so you can hear your mix. You won't know which way is up.
> 
> ...



I did and now I work at 75db (my room is small)


----------



## chimuelo (Apr 23, 2015)

I actually just bought a Finalizer for that very reason.
Bought a TC Fireworx a few months back and was floored 
on the quality of sound effects so I bought another and
thanks to the ADAT I/O I can still run my AES/EBU and ADAT
all at 48k for live work and have a marvelous sound quality.
Then I decided to get the Finalizer and what a Gem that has 
turned out to be.

In Scope DSP Platform I use software modules to create 
connections from in the box to external hardware, then from 
the drop down menu of the Project Window can drag the 
odule (stored with connections) into any insert or Auxillery, 
so 2 x AUXs get the TC Fireworx units and the Master Bus uses 
the Finalizer.

I love it when software becomes so popular that high quality 
hardware goes for the same price, but usually has a much better
quality of sound.

Before I was using a DSP based Multi Band Limiter with Dual Slopes, 
similar to the Manley SLAM, but only with 4 x Bands and it was very 
good, but the TC just has more hardware punch to it.


----------



## sinkd (Apr 24, 2015)

Dryden.Chambers @ Tue Feb 10 said:


> UA & Britson here
> 
> two flavors:
> 
> ...



Wow. Don't those plugs introduce a ton of extra latency? I use the UAD Precision Multiband on my mix bus, but I can't have it in line while I am writing.

DS


----------



## Arbee (Apr 24, 2015)

While I don't actually use it until mastering, I put a multi-band compressor on the master bus to A/B while I mix. It helps me get some reasonable loudness later as it highlights any areas of thickness that need to be thinned within the arrangement or with EQ.

.


----------



## Patrick_Gill (Apr 24, 2015)

On the master bus I usually have a tape emulator, analog console emu and a master compressor. 

I toggle the master compressor on and off to give me an idea of to how everything will sound loud. It also allows you to monitor your headroom.


----------



## Sanlky (Apr 24, 2015)

No :( i always prefer to do all mastering related in a separated project. I leave the master bus without nothing and work with headroom, at least max peak at -3-6dBs, i turn on the volume on the monitor mixer if i want more volume. 

Besides, if you are recording, effects in master bus will generally result in more latency.


----------



## germancomponist (Apr 24, 2015)

Mixing to let/make sound a plug or more plugs well? Smile 

I never do it, maybe a smart limiter ... .


----------



## reddognoyz (Apr 24, 2015)

I do all mastering after the fact. Mixing tv here at my studio the engineers mix with the mastering/limiting in place, which they kinda have to do in order to hit the appropriate levels required


----------



## jcrosby (Apr 26, 2015)

I put a spectrum analyzer on the master buss of every track I do regardless of genre. I find that not only does it let you see any thing below the hearing range, it's useful to see what the overall only tonal balance of your track looks like, or if there are any areas where there's a large buildup of frequencies.

Typically I'll use an ozone 5 EQ module as my analyzer (mainly for the "snapshot" feature.) I've taken tons of snapshots of tracks that I feel are mixed incredibly well, load 4 or 5 to get an average idea of the range of tonal balance for that genre and use it as a guide to see how my tonal balance compares. 

I also put a level meter on the master buss and mix using the k-system. IMO those two are invaluable tools for anyone needing to work quickly with consistent results. 

I also tend to use console emulation and a buss compressor into the analyzer and level meters… (typically the Slate VCC and VBC FG-Mu)


----------



## Joram (May 4, 2015)

I would advise that you don't compose with inserts on the master bus (except as a correction for your monitors). Things can go horribly wrong and it is very difficult to "repair" the sound. A spectrum analyzer can be handy, but I think the best you can do is just listen and come as close to the sound you need when choosing instruments, patches and individual sounds. Don't worry about technicalities.

I choose my mix bus inserts based on the style of music and purpose. Often 2-3 dB gain reduction on the master buss compressor is enough for pop and rock. I sometimes use a tiny bit of iZotope's Trash 2 too add subtle harmonics. A little eq-ing can help too (to add weight and control mids and top end) but most of the time I leave that to the mastering engineer or to the mastering stage. 

With orchestral or hybrid work I practically never use any bus processing. In general compression kills transients and the music will sound less exiting. Gain riding is a much better option to control dynamics and keep the music lively, exiting and powerful. If it's really necessary to use a compressor I would go for a really good multiband compressor in combination with a really good limiter.


----------



## Blackster (May 4, 2015)

I usually don't. I have dedicated presets for mixing and mastering which makes it easy to focus on composing/arranging first.


----------



## ceemusic (May 7, 2015)

+1

Mastering is done after mixing the source so it can transferred to & used on different mediums.
On my 2 buss (mixing) I have mono/ stereo tools, analyzers, meters to check RMS, peak & overs.
No compression, eq or fx on my 2 buss. That's all done per track while mixing.
Anything else that source may need is done after the fact at the mastering stage.


----------



## pixel (May 7, 2015)

I like to play with master buss but I work in "compose and mix" way. I like to experiment with master buss with demo renders. When I strictly compose then master buss is bypassed


----------

