# Obi-Wan - Main Theme by John Williams



## Ex Legatum

What do you all think?


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## José Herring

At the top of his game. Stellar orchestral writing. I love the way it unfolds. Epic and heroic yet very personal and caring.

My only complaint is that you can't really put a disco beat to it. So how do they plan on selling records?


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## Ex Legatum

José Herring said:


> At the top of his game. Stellar orchestral writing. I love the way it unfolds. Epic and heroic yet very personal and caring.
> 
> My only complaint is that you can't really put a disco beat to it. So how do they plan on selling records?


Ofcourse someone will make a dubstep version sooner or later.. Hopefully later


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## Ex Legatum

My opinion: Great writing as always.. I've listened to it multiple times and I seem to like it better each time I hear it, like his score when Rey walks the stairs in ep 7. The motif is in there, but It's heavily intertwined into the rest of the score. With that said, only time will tell if I will be remembering this as well as the force theme, imperial theme, or even newer one's such as Rey's theme.


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## FireGS

I feel like it's thematically weak -- and I'm probably one of John Williams' biggest fans. I may have set my hopes too high, though.


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## AlbertSmithers

it reminds me of the spiderman ps4 theme (but better)

I like it - I do think the opening is pretty tame for a JW track (ex. both Rey's theme & the Indiana Jones theme have rhythmic patterns that turn into the main theme, whereas this one opens with it), but perhaps that's intentional to reflect the tameness in his character.


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## Jett Hitt

FireGS said:


> I feel like it's thematically weak -- and I'm probably one of John Williams' biggest fans. I may have set my hopes too high, though.


I’m with you. Unremarkable theme and bland writing, and I’m a huge JW fan.


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## dcoscina

Jett Hitt said:


> I’m with you. Unremarkable theme and bland writing, and I’m a huge JW fan.


Me too. Wish it was better but I think Williams is done with SW.


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## FireGS

Jett Hitt said:


> I’m with you. Unremarkable theme and bland writing, and I’m a huge JW fan.


The orchestration is nice, or at least fine, don't get me wrong, but yeah, a bit bland. The press leading up to it made it sound as if JW had this brilliant theme that he simply had to share and it was so good they felt that it should be used - hopes were high.


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## NoamL

This is incredibly more monophonic in rhythm than anything I've ever heard him write before.


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## polynaeus

Gorgeous string writing. The opening brass solo will need to grow on me, and it will. But the strings all through out are incredible.


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## FireGS

My honest opinion is that it sounds like this was a "napkin-sketch" that was given to an arranger/orchestrator to complete as a ghostwriter. 🤷🏻‍♂️


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## Gerbil

Sounds like a B-grade imitation of a student imitating him. Mind you, the opening two episodes felt like a fan-baked concoction to me so maybe it’s just mirroring that fact.


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## polynaeus

FireGS said:


> My honest opinion is that it sounds like this was a "napkin-sketch" that was given to an arranger/orchestrator to complete as a ghostwriter. 🤷🏻‍♂️


What about it, specifically, makes you say this?


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## CT

I ghostwrote it. Thanks everyone.


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## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

But isn't the them adequate for the story?


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## MisteR

José Herring said:


> At the top of his game. Stellar orchestral writing. I love the way it unfolds. Epic and heroic yet very personal and caring.
> 
> My only complaint is that you can't really put a disco beat to it. So how do they plan on selling records?


I think I still have that 45 somewhere in storage.


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## José Herring

You guys are way too critical. Theme is great. Maybe not his greatest but in all honesty even "not his greatest" is greater than anybody else.


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## ryans

I like many aspects of the theme. I'm not blown away by it but, he's 90.

Not sure it's fair to compare 90 year old John Williams to 45 year old John Williams.


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## CT

He's still writing other music, and I think that's as eloquent and spirited as ever. This sounds a bit like him keeping things restrained, rather than losing edge or something like that.


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## Robin Thompson

I find the very existence of this fascinating, as a marker of how far Star Wars has evolved. Because of course, Obi-Wan already had a theme once. Originally the famous Force Theme was Obi-Wan's theme. But as the music, the character and the nature of the story have drifted over the years it has now become necessary to write him a new theme.

I like it. It's not a clear melodic motif served up on a platter as we were led to expect, like the theme he provided for Solo. Maybe "theme" is the wrong word for this. It's more of a short tone poem exploring a particular mood for the series. A mood that feels to me (I haven't seen the show or any trailers beyond stills) like a quest, perhaps a search for purpose and identity. That might explain why the piece lacks a confident melodic identity - because the absence of that, the longing for it, is the whole thrust of it. It wanders. In any case, listening to this certainly reminds me that Williams' command of harmony is as iconic as his melodies, and there's plenty of thematic raw material here for the show to expound upon as it progresses. I like it.


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## José Herring

Watching the show now. The theme makes perfect sense and it is quite brilliant for the context of the show.


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## Jorgakis

It's not the most polished theme in a melody sense, but it's a sure thing, as everything he does. After 20 min it makes totally sense and is so baked into your brain as everything else.


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## Chris Schmidt

It's not good.

You know it

I know it

We all know it

It doesn't even sound like John Williams. Not only is it overall just boring and forgettable and much more like "modern" film music, the middle section of the piece is actually annoying and I found myself skipping through it. I'd have never known this was John if you hadn't told me.

It's the first John Williams tune I've ever heard where I'm like "Yeah, this sucks"

But you know what? The guy is 100 years old and STILL at it, and has churned out nothing but bangers over his like, 6 decade career as the greatest film composer ever.

He's allowed a few duds and to phone it in by now. The guy struggles with and probably just "can't do" stairs anymore, I'm not going to be upset if his latest Star Wars tune isn't as god-like as all the others he's written over the last half-century.

If I was his age, I'd be pissed off they even wanted me to write another movie theme instead of letting me nap.

I'm not even half his age and I'm pissed off that people won't let me nap.


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## Houdini

Chris Schmidt said:


> If I was his age, I'd be pissed off they even wanted me to write another movie theme instead of letting me nap.
> 
> I'm not even half his age and I'm pissed off that people won't let me nap.


I'm not even a third of his age and I still get pissed off when people won't let me nap, so don't be too hard on yourself lol

The track was not a banger, that's established by now. I also expected some variation of the Force Theme, but I reserve my final opinion for when I listen to it in the context of the series.

People here criticized the latest Batman soundtrack and I loved it in the movie.


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## José Herring

I bet the people bashing it haven't even watched the show. The music is perfect for this show. Watch the first two episodes, then comment. It's not what you think it is.


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## Gerbil

José Herring said:


> I bet the people bashing it haven't even watched the show. The music is perfect for this show. Watch the first two episodes, then comment. It's not what you think it is.


The show hasn't been great so far so the music is indeed reflective of that. Hopefully it will get better after that excellent ending to Ep.2, but sadly the theme will remain rather insipid.


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## dcoscina

I heard Bill Ross did most of the composing for the first two episodes…


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## polynaeus

Lots of people complaining about it not being good with ZERO back up as to why other then claiming his age.

If you cannot critically back up your reasoning as to why this “sucks” and go on to talk about why he can’t climb stairs… this feels like agism to me.


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## Drumdude2112

Interesting i wouldn’t have guessed that was JW…Didn’t have much of that signature ‘JW sound’ happening…Not saying it wasn’t ‘good’ but…different lol.
The string writing was stunning…just beautiful…Its definitely one of the more ‘ambiguous’ theme’s i’ve ever heard him do..Seems a bit more of a ‘modern take’ (on a traditional orchestral sound) for better or worse…perhaps that’s the kinda ‘thing’ they wanted 🤷🏼‍♂️..Agreed it aint a ‘banger’ , definitely not one of those ‘holy s$i¥ listen to THAT’ moments lol ..Look foward to hearing (and watching) in context though.


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## J-M

It was already mentioned that there are bits that sound like the main theme from PS4 Spider-Man...a funny coincidence! It's not as memorable to me compared to Williams' classics, but then again, I haven't seen the show and have no idea how this works there. In the end...isn't that all that matters when writing music for media?


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## Scalms

Michaelt said:


> I ghostwrote it. Thanks everyone.


hey wait, i ghostwrote it for the ghost-writer


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## FireGS

polynaeus said:


> Lots of people complaining about it not being good with ZERO back up as to why other then claiming his age.


I said the theme was weak. I'll continue; it meanders and doesnt seem to have a lot to say. Call it a "tone poem", but I just dont think the theme is that strong or memorable. I listened to it about 10 times in a row and I still can't hum it back.


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## Kent

via Frank Lehman's Twitter post



and a more recent, fuller transcription: 






via 



This is John's greatest and most Star-Warsiest Star Wars theme + thematic material in nearly two decades, and if you don't understand that, you're honestly just not paying attention. Reading Frank Lehman's Twitter threads is a great place to start 

Whether or not you like it or personally connect with it is a different conversation, of course.


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## Gerbil

Kent said:


> This is John's greatest and most Star-Warsiest Star Wars theme + thematic material in nearly two decades, and if you don't understand that, you're honestly just not paying attention.


Paying attention to what? The way it incorporates old material? That doesn't make it great or even good music. I think it's very ordinary, which is not a term I'd ever associate with Williams.


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## Rob Elliott

It's perfect for the content it was written for. I could only hope to do that every time someone hires me to do likewise.


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## Andreyfw

Out of real curiosity - those who criticise music that it's not "memorable", do you consider, that you have high as sun expectation level? Which based on your previous enormous emotional experience.

And then - the show is taking place in truly deepest and darkest years of New Star Wars Canon. The Jedi is purged and those who remains is truly smashed and have to leave everything they believe in order to simply see another day.
Williams is considered as a man, who masterfully transfer character into music. For 2 episodes we see Obi Wan as depressed, as feared, as weak spirited, as any other soldier with PTSD, who fought and lost. Lost literally everything and for nothing.

Why should theme have to be memoriable and on a repeat? Do you often hear music that's represent PTSD?

It's strong, epic and easily feet into Star Wars vibe.

Why you ask for more?


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## NathanTiemeyer

Already listening to this theme on repeat, already humming it. Very thankful that we are still getting new John Williams Star Wars music this late in the maestro's legendary career.


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## polynaeus

FireGS said:


> I said the theme was weak. I'll continue; it meanders and doesnt seem to have a lot to say. Call it a "tone poem", but I just dont think the theme is that strong or memorable. I listened to it about 10 times in a row and I still can't hum it back.


Understood. I agree it’s no repetitious fanfare, but I don’t think it needs to be or should be and nor is that a measure of strength in music for me to equate this music as weak.


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## Ex Legatum

dcoscina said:


> I heard Bill Ross did most of the composing for the first two episodes…


The composer credit is set to Natalie Holt?


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## Rob Elliott

Ex Legatum said:


> The composer credit is set to Natalie Holt?


It said Ross 'adapted' JW's theme (probably that first darker 20 mins)


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## FireGS

polynaeus said:


> Understood. I agree it’s no repetitious fanfare, but I don’t think it needs to be or should be and nor is that a measure of strength in music for me to equate this music as weak.


FWIW, I didn't mean or intend that it had to be any sort of fanfare. There are a ton of JW SW themes or motifs that aren't that. Force theme, Leia's Theme, Han and Leia, Yoda's theme, Across the Stars, Immolation theme, Anakins Betrayal, Emporers theme, Rey's theme, etc etc. All of those themes are strong and have something to say without being a fanfare, or repetitious. All's I'm saying is that I've heard better thematic material from JW and SW before. 

And I'm making no mention of age because its irrelevant.


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## Markrs

José Herring said:


> I bet the people bashing it haven't even watched the show. The music is perfect for this show. Watch the first two episodes, then comment. It's not what you think it is.


This is the key, it is film/tv scoring, to support the visuals and dialogue. I also think that everyone wants that sugary rush of a grand heroic theme, which I don't doubt JW can still do. I will reserve judgement until I have seen the music in context.


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## Daren Audio

dcoscina said:


> I heard Bill Ross did most of the composing for the first two episodes…





Ex Legatum said:


> The composer credit is set to Natalie Holt?


Yes, it's Natalie Holt (wonderful job on the Loki series) that was brought on as the main composer for the episodes teaming up with JW as he did the Kenobi Theme.









‘Obi-Wan Kenobi’ Composer Natalie Holt Reveals “Haunting” Approach


The first woman to score a live-action ‘Star Wars’ project teams with John Williams, who contributed a new theme for Ewan McGregor’s exiled Jedi.




www.vanityfair.com


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## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Daren Audio said:


> Yes, it's Natalie Holt (Loki series) that was brought on as the main composer teaming up with JW as he did the Kenobi Theme.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ‘Obi-Wan Kenobi’ Composer Natalie Holt Reveals “Haunting” Approach
> 
> 
> The first woman to score a live-action ‘Star Wars’ project teams with John Williams, who contributed a new theme for Ewan McGregor’s exiled Jedi.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vanityfair.com


Ah i see it's not because JW is old it's because it's a women.


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## Zanshin

Natalie Holt is awesome  

I’ll have to start the series today.


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## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

I could swear i heard the ostinatos starting at 1:05 in Westworld or something?


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## Drundfunk

Well whatever you think about this theme, it's miles better than the score for this show... . To my surprise I actually enjoyed the first two episodes, although the show has many weak parts, but the weakest part to me was the music somehow... .


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## Loerpert

Drundfunk said:


> Well whatever you think about this theme, it's miles better than the score for this show... . To my surprise I actually enjoyed the first two episodes, although the show has many weak parts, but the weakest part to me was the music somehow... .


Agreed. The generic action sequences don't really have that star wars sound.


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## Henning

I have not seen the series, but I read enough and saw the trailers and remember the ending of Episode 3 to know where the main character is situated at the moment. 

I listened to the Theme yesterday more or less distractedly and was a bit underwhelmed. So after reading this thread I thought, "ok, give it another go". I cranked up the speakers loud and first thing I noticed is how dry it sounds. It has nearly that Mandalorian kinda dry sound. This rather modern sound might be a bit off-putting at first listen perhaps. 

As many of you said before this is a theme for a character in a deep crisis. So I listened if I could find any hint of this in the music, and for me it's all there. The horn melody is a bit meandering as if not really knowing where to go to, quite perfect for this character's mindset as I imagine it. It's repeated in harmonized form and then there's this kind of limping rhythm in the following strings onstinato. It gives the character a half-broken feeling, being disillusioned but still trying and struggling to carry on. So for me it matches the character in his current psychological state and that's what's film music all about. I mean, helping to tell a story. It does not have to shine for it's own sake. 

Actually I have got to say I like it after some more listens. It makes me want to check out the series so it must have something good to it


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## polynaeus

Drundfunk said:


> Well whatever you think about this theme, it's miles better than the score for this show... . To my surprise I actually enjoyed the first two episodes, although the show has many weak parts, but the weakest part to me was the music somehow... .


Yes I agree here. I hope the show’s score will evolve and settle in and get more confident. 

But yes JW’s theme here far exceeds what I heard as the score in episode 1.

So yeah for the critics of JW’s theme here, you will be very disappointed in the actual score.


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## dcoscina

I will simply say this- I love John Williams' music. His scores made me want to be a composer. My disinterest in his Obi-Wan theme does not stem from agism, weird conspiracy theories or that I want to rock the boat. It's simply not on the level of his other thematic work for the franchise and I was hoping he would bring some of that original brilliance to this piece. But, I haven't seen the series, and probably won't because I grew up on SW from my childhood in the '70s and do not love the whoring out of the franchise by Disney. Williams seems more interested in concert works and I say he deserves to focus on that at his age. He's paid his dues and delivered volumes of genius over the past 50 years. His theme would be anyone else's triumph I'm sure but he's set the bar so high, that it does feel like a letdown...
.


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## NoamL

I also don't believe in ageism theories. He seems the same old JW in interviews and public appearances. He seems excited to dive back into concert music. Dude has nothing left to prove but still loves music.

I think there is some 40 year old creative at the head of this OBW project (NOT Natalie Holt!!! some exec!!) who wants the music to be very simple and modern and this is JW writing a "very simple and modern" theme. I'm not a fan as the thing that "makes Star Wars Star Wars" has always been the symphonic scale of the music. The music for the sequels was less polyphonic than the prequels but no less dense, no less nuanced in its pace to picture, no less advanced in its harmonic language.

I thought "Last Jedi" was one of JW's best scores ever. It was inspiring to walk out of the movie theater and be reminded that this really complex, symphonic scale writing still has a place in movies if only directors can see that and play ball & agree to take these risks.

But SW is changing, loads of people at Disney have said that they see it as a television franchise now, which just means that people who like the old Star Wars & the magic of movie theaters and big symphonic scores, can finally let it go and move on with our lives.


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## polynaeus

NoamL said:


> I also don't believe in ageism theories. He seems the same old JW in interviews and public appearances. He seems excited to dive back into concert music. Dude has nothing left to prove but still loves music.
> 
> I think there is some 40 year old creative at the head of this OBW project (NOT Natalie Holt!!! some exec!!) who wants the music to be very simple and modern and this is JW writing a "very simple and modern" theme. I'm not a fan as the thing that "makes Star Wars Star Wars" has always been the symphonic scale of the music. The music for the sequels was less polyphonic than the prequels but no less dense, no less nuanced in its pace to picture, no less advanced in its harmonic language.
> 
> I thought "Last Jedi" was one of JW's best scores ever. It was inspiring to walk out of the movie theater and be reminded that this really complex, symphonic scale writing still has a place in movies if only directors can see that and play ball & agree to take these risks.
> 
> But SW is changing, loads of people at Disney have said that they see it as a television franchise now, which just means that people who like the old Star Wars & the magic of movie theaters and big symphonic scores, can finally let it go and move on with our lives.


Very bleak outlook. Mando has been awesome. Few hit or miss ‘sodes but I'm grateful for it. Solo was fun too.

By no means has Star Wars been “whored out” and your clinging to the 1970’s will only leave you missing out on some fun stories from the Star Wars universe.

Reminds me of a friend who REFUSES to watch the US version of The Office. It’s like… get over it. They are just two different things derived or inspired from the same source. The same I believe can be said about the new Star Wars stuff.

We will see about Obi-wan series. It may just take some time to develop. Most TV shows do. The Seinfeld characters and episodes took awhile to work out and get right and you can see that unfold as you go back through the many seasons. Just human nature. Do something more and more and you get better at it.


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## José Herring

polynaeus said:


> Very bleak outlook. Mando has been awesome. Few hit or miss ‘sodes but I'm grateful for it. Solo was fun too.
> 
> By no means has Star Wars been “whored out” and your clinging to the 1970’s will only leave you missing out on some fun stories from the Star Wars universe.
> 
> Reminds me of a friend who REFUSES to watch the US version of The Office. It’s like… get over it. They are just two different things derived or inspired from the same source. The same I believe can be said about the new Star Wars stuff.
> 
> We will see about Obi-wan series. It may just take some time to develop. Most TV shows do. The Seinfeld characters and episodes took awhile to work out and get right and you can see that unfold as you go back through the many seasons. Just human nature. Do something more and more and you get better at it.


I actually thought Kenobi is off to a great start. People expected a lot though. Most anticipated show on Disney+ for some time. It's not the Jedi or the Kenobi we are use to and that's going to put people off. Without spoiling it, so far it's a character study on what happens if we have to live with the mistakes we make, the misery, the losses, loss of faith, ect..... That part won't spoil it because we already know the story line but it's interesting to see those missing years on screen.

That's why I think the theme is brilliant. It's not about the glory of the Jedi, it's the aftermath of the complete destruction of faith.


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## polynaeus

José Herring said:


> I actually thought Kenobi is off to a great start. People expected a lot though. Most anticipated show on Disney+ for some time. It's not the Jedi or the Kenobi we are use to and that's going to put people off. Without spoiling it, so far it's a character study on what happens if we have to live with the mistakes we make, the misery, the losses, loss of faith, ect..... That part won't spoil it because we already know the story line but it's interesting to see those missing years on screen.
> 
> That's why I think the theme is brilliant. It's not about the glory of the Jedi, it's the aftermath of the complete destruction of faith.


Oh I agree. I’m stoked for the series. I can see how SOME of the scenes could feel a little “fan made” or whatever. But yes it’s great. So looking forward to exploring the depths of what has otherwise been a pretty mysterious character.


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## José Herring

polynaeus said:


> Oh I agree. I’m stoked for the series. I can see how SOME of the scenes could feel a little “fan made” or whatever. But yes it’s great. So looking forward to exploring the depths of what has otherwise been a pretty mysterious character.


Yes, he has been. Obi-Wan is fascinating because he was never the most capable Jedi but somehow always managed to get the job done. The director and writers seem to recognize that and understand him well. 
I watched it last night and though yeah, pretty good, not the greatest but then I woke up this morning thinking about it. I haven't thought about a show after watching it in about 5 years now. So it means that they setup something that has me curious, can he make it back, how will he survive now that he's older, a bit weaker and loss almost all of his faith. And, the loss of faith is palpable. I read an article where the director spent a great deal of time studying what the mood of Kenobi should be and she is nailing it.
Now I won't say any more. Don't want to spoil it but it's well worth the watch just from a pure curiosity point of view.


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## babylonwaves

The Obi-Wan theme is fairly different from the rest of the music as others mentioned already. Understandably, because people have different styles and there are not a lot of people who can pull a JW just like that. I'm through EP1 and I can't really decide if I would prefer the music to be all Natalie's style (for consistency reasons) or a mix of styles. When I watched "Solo" I thought that even somebody like JP must have had a difficult time writing music that works with the themes by JW. I can't say I'm his biggest fan but I realise how capable he is and how unique his writing is. The Obi-Wan theme I like btw, it works great in EP1.


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## José Herring

Rob Elliott said:


> It said Ross 'adapted' JW's theme (probably that first darker 20 mins)


William Ross is great at the tradiational stuff. He probably handled the Kenobi scenes and Natalie Holt handled the inquisitor stuff because it was more electronica hybrid in nature. 

It's interesting because I wonder if we're getting to a point were there will be multiple composers to handle different aspects of a score. More like arrangers than composers.


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## TonalDynamics

Henning said:


> As many of you said before this is a theme for a character in a deep crisis. So I listened if I could find any hint of this in the music, and for me it's all there. The horn melody is a bit meandering as if not really knowing where to go to, quite perfect for this character's mindset as I imagine it. It's repeated in harmonized form and then there's this kind of limping rhythm in the following strings onstinato. It gives the character a half-broken feeling, being disillusioned but still trying and struggling to carry on. So for me it matches the character in his current psychological state and that's what's film music all about. I mean, helping to tell a story. It does not have to shine for it's own sake.


Yes, this was my general take on it as well, almost as if Obi has 'lost' _his_ theme at this broken and forlorn juncture of life, and the meandering nature of the music might be John's way of manifesting that.

Your brain searches for the 'theme', just as Obi Wan searches for a new meaning to his life.

Do I think it's a masterwork of some kind? No, but on first listen I still enjoyed it in the context of the above sentiment and anything John does is generally miles ahead of the fumbling mediocrity we see in a lot of TV shows these days...

and apparently the show itself is an example of that, with a middling score-game?? Why Disney, why... why tease us with Williams while you ceaselessly flex your nepotism by hiring people you like instead of those best-suited to the job?! "WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY—

OK, I haven't seen the show yet but I'm likely not going to shell out a Disney+ sub to do that, particularly if the score is as yawning as many here have said.

But HEY, imagine being 90 and still writing like this, as well as still writing concertos.

Just the fact that the man is still churning out this work is inspiring me for a whole different set of reasons. Hell, at 34 I hope I'm still working strong when I'm _60; _I can't even imagine 90...

The force is strong with this one.


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## Uiroo

I think the theme is not great. But what really gets to me is the overall arrangement. Definitely not my cup of tea.


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## Chris Schmidt

polynaeus said:


> Lots of people complaining about it not being good with ZERO back up as to why other then claiming his age.
> 
> If you cannot critically back up your reasoning as to why this “sucks” and go on to talk about why he can’t climb stairs… this feels like agism to me.


I'm not obligated to go on an in-depth critical analysis and breakdown like reviewing a 16-year-old's FL studio composition on a forum just because I said it isn't great when all that anyone has to do to tell is _listen_ to the piece in a question without the fanboy goggles on and much of what I can say about it has already been said.

A guy in his 90s, especially one with the legacy of JW, is not going to be anywhere near the top of his game, with anything, and it's not some sort of "-ism" to point that out. That's just how life goes.

His music for the sequels wasn't even as good as the prequels or original trilogy and that seems to be essentially the consensus.

The piece meanders, the ostinato sort of accompaniment that comes in around the 1-minute mark is lazy, annoying, and actually steps on the melody which has barely any movement itself relative to the strings, which doesn't even seem to have any doublings or anything to make it wider and stand out.

There's no real energy or excitement to the piece, not much going on at all (especially by his standards), and huge sections of the piece are essentially more just like slow choral-like passages or chords with drawn-out lines on top that I can't even remember how they go after several listens now. The thematic structure of all the new material he composed are also very weak and don't have anywhere near the articulation, dynamic range and attention to detail (some of this may be the particular orchestra's fault) that a more somber piece should have. Listen to what he did for stuff like Schindler's List, Across The Stars, Battle of the Heroes, etc. That's the kind of attention to detail with orchestration, counter-lines, etc. that this piece should also have and younger JW absolutely would have done and probably spent considerable time working on.

The transitions are also pretty awful and the arrangement doesn't really have any coherent "flow" to it. Listen to 2:49 for example. It's like he just said "fuck it, horns now" and that was it. Compare that to how he masterfully handled different sections in any of his old pieces, including the Star Wars main theme (where we pan down and see the space ship) and honestly tell me you think this holds a candle to it.

No serious use of winds, choir, percussion (pitched or no), runs, and other ornamentation that this piece would strongly-benefit from having. Gone is also the sort of call and responses he's famous for and we're instead just left with large portions of no movement at all. Most of the time it's just one section has takes the lead and the other is doing some chords, almost like a pad, and that's it.

Listen to the ending as well. This actually sounds like a beginner trailer composer's attempt at a climax and that annoying 4-note pattern also returns, but this time in the brass.

The entire thing sounds pretty low-effort and uninspired — and yes, I guarantee you both Star Wars burn out and his age play a considerable part.

But as I've said: I don't hold it against him in the least. He's still my favorite 20th-Century Orchestral Composer. I respect that he's still composing _at all_.

100 years from now, the guy's compendium of excellent orchestral music will still be revered and putting asses in seats in concert halls. This just won't be among them.

So it's really no big deal if, at age 90, he just phones in a mediocre piece for what is probably a trash series for the sake of having something to do and put a few more million in the inheritance for his great-great grandchildren.


----------



## polynaeus

Chris Schmidt said:


> I'm not obligated to go on an in-depth critical analysis and breakdown like reviewing a 16-year-old's FL studio composition on a forum just because I said it isn't great when all that anyone has to do to tell is _listen_ to the piece in a question without the fanboy goggles on and much of what I can say about it has already been said.
> 
> A guy in his 90s, especially one with the legacy of JW, is not going to be anywhere near the top of his game, with anything, and it's not some sort of "-ism" to point that out. That's just how life goes.
> 
> His music for the sequels wasn't even as good as the prequels or original trilogy and that seems to be essentially the consensus.
> 
> The piece meanders, the ostinato sort of accompaniment that comes in around the 1-minute mark is lazy, annoying, and actually steps on the melody which has barely any movement itself relative to the strings, which doesn't even seem to have any doublings or anything to make it wider and stand out.
> 
> There's no real energy or excitement to the piece, not much going on at all (especially by his standards), and huge sections of the piece are essentially more just like slow choral-like passages or chords with drawn-out lines on top that I can't even remember how they go after several listens now. The thematic structure of all the new material he composed are also very weak and don't have anywhere near the articulation, dynamic range and attention to detail (some of this may be the particular orchestra's fault) that a more somber piece should have. Listen to what he did for stuff like Schindler's List, Across The Stars, Battle of the Heroes, etc. That's the kind of attention to detail with orchestration, counter-lines, etc. that this piece should also have and younger JW absolutely would have done and probably spent considerable time working on.
> 
> The transitions are also pretty awful and the arrangement doesn't really have any coherent "flow" to it. Listen to 2:49 for example. It's like he just said "fuck it, horns now" and that was it. Compare that to how he masterfully handled different sections in any of his old pieces, including the Star Wars main theme (where we pan down and see the space ship) and honestly tell me you think this holds a candle to it.
> 
> No serious use of winds, choir, percussion (pitched or no), runs, and other ornamentation that this piece would strongly-benefit from having. Gone is also the sort of call and responses he's famous for and we're instead just left with large portions of no movement at all. Most of the time it's just one section has takes the lead and the other is doing some chords, almost like a pad, and that's it.
> 
> Listen to the ending as well. This actually sounds like a beginner trailer composer's attempt at a climax and that annoying 4-note pattern also returns, but this time in the brass.
> 
> The entire thing sounds pretty low-effort and uninspired — and yes, I guarantee you both Star Wars burn out and his age play a considerable part.
> 
> But as I've said: I don't hold it against him in the least. He's still my favorite 20th-Century Orchestral Composer. I respect that he's still composing _at all_.
> 
> 100 years from now, the guy's compendium of excellent orchestral music will still be revered and putting asses in seats in concert halls. This just won't be among them.
> 
> So it's really no big deal if, at age 90, he just phones in a mediocre piece for what is probably a trash series for the sake of having something to do and put a few more million in the inheritance for his great-great grandchildren.


“F it horns here” “phoning it in” interesting so you believe it’s willfully bad then? Like he decided to not do good work and was lazy. Just doesn’t seem to match JWs character. The age excuse was better then this.

Also “trash series” and you haven’t even watched it. I’m inspired by your comments.


----------



## Uiroo

polynaeus said:


> Also “trash series” and you haven’t even watched it.


I'm 40 minutes in and already want my money back.


----------



## MikeH

Chris Schmidt said:


> I'm not obligated to go on an in-depth critical analysis and breakdown like reviewing a 16-year-old's FL studio composition on a forum just because I said it isn't great when all that anyone has to do to tell is _listen_ to the piece in a question without the fanboy goggles on and much of what I can say about it has already been said.
> 
> A guy in his 90s, especially one with the legacy of JW, is not going to be anywhere near the top of his game, with anything, and it's not some sort of "-ism" to point that out. That's just how life goes.
> 
> His music for the sequels wasn't even as good as the prequels or original trilogy and that seems to be essentially the consensus.
> 
> The piece meanders, the ostinato sort of accompaniment that comes in around the 1-minute mark is lazy, annoying, and actually steps on the melody which has barely any movement itself relative to the strings, which doesn't even seem to have any doublings or anything to make it wider and stand out.
> 
> There's no real energy or excitement to the piece, not much going on at all (especially by his standards), and huge sections of the piece are essentially more just like slow choral-like passages or chords with drawn-out lines on top that I can't even remember how they go after several listens now. The thematic structure of all the new material he composed are also very weak and don't have anywhere near the articulation, dynamic range and attention to detail (some of this may be the particular orchestra's fault) that a more somber piece should have. Listen to what he did for stuff like Schindler's List, Across The Stars, Battle of the Heroes, etc. That's the kind of attention to detail with orchestration, counter-lines, etc. that this piece should also have and younger JW absolutely would have done and probably spent considerable time working on.
> 
> The transitions are also pretty awful and the arrangement doesn't really have any coherent "flow" to it. Listen to 2:49 for example. It's like he just said "fuck it, horns now" and that was it. Compare that to how he masterfully handled different sections in any of his old pieces, including the Star Wars main theme (where we pan down and see the space ship) and honestly tell me you think this holds a candle to it.
> 
> No serious use of winds, choir, percussion (pitched or no), runs, and other ornamentation that this piece would strongly-benefit from having. Gone is also the sort of call and responses he's famous for and we're instead just left with large portions of no movement at all. Most of the time it's just one section has takes the lead and the other is doing some chords, almost like a pad, and that's it.
> 
> Listen to the ending as well. This actually sounds like a beginner trailer composer's attempt at a climax and that annoying 4-note pattern also returns, but this time in the brass.
> 
> The entire thing sounds pretty low-effort and uninspired — and yes, I guarantee you both Star Wars burn out and his age play a considerable part.
> 
> But as I've said: I don't hold it against him in the least. He's still my favorite 20th-Century Orchestral Composer. I respect that he's still composing _at all_.
> 
> 100 years from now, the guy's compendium of excellent orchestral music will still be revered and putting asses in seats in concert halls. This just won't be among them.
> 
> So it's really no big deal if, at age 90, he just phones in a mediocre piece for what is probably a trash series for the sake of having something to do and put a few more million in the inheritance for his great-great grandchildren.


By his own admission and everyone who knows him, Williams basically does nothing except eat, sleep, and write music. And conduct. With pencil and paper and a piano. He’s 90 years old and has done more conducting gigs across the world in the last few years than he ever has before.

And not only has he written many new concert pieces (apart from his film work), he is continuously updating and revising pieces he’s written over the years. I can’t remember what revision number his Cello concerto is on by now but he just reworked it again for his new album with Yo-Yo Ma. He never leaves his work alone. Never. Always revising, always trying to make them better. Those sequel scores? He basically wrote and recorded 3+ hours of music for each film because of how the post-production process was structured. The new Obi-Wan theme? He’s already revised it. The version he conducted live the other day at Star Wars Celebration has some changes and revisions since this official studio recording.

You can love or hate the piece, but to suggest Williams is even capable of phoning something in or giving low-effort is willful ignorance of the man and his character.


----------



## TonalDynamics

MikeH said:


> By his own admission and everyone who knows him, Williams basically does nothing except eat, sleep, and write music. And conduct. With pencil and paper and a piano. He’s 90 years old and has done more conducting gigs across the world in the last few years than he ever has before.
> 
> And not only has he written many new concert pieces (apart from his film work), he is continuously updating and revising pieces he’s written over the years. I can’t remember what revision number his Cello concerto is on by now but he just reworked it again for his new album with Yo-Yo Ma. He never leaves his work alone. Never. Always revising, always trying to make them better. Those sequel scores? He basically recorded 3+ hours of music for each film because of how the post-production process was structured. The new Obi-Wan theme? He’s already revised it. The version he conducted live the other day at Star Wars Celebration has some changes and revisions since this official studio recording.
> 
> You can love or hate the piece, but to suggest Williams is even capable of phoning something in or giving low-effort is willful ignorance of the man and his character.


Ya know, the more I hear about this WILLIAMS character, the more I like him.


----------



## polynaeus

Uiroo said:


> I'm 40 minutes in and already want my money back.


Here ya go… Canceling Disney+?


----------



## NoamL

polynaeus said:


> By no means has Star Wars been “whored out”


Well I'm not the one who said that (and I would not put it in those words). 

You're taking issue with @dcoscina


----------



## polynaeus

NoamL said:


> Well I'm not the one who said that (and I would not put it in those words).
> 
> You're taking issue with @dcoscina


My b. Hard to keep track of the haters here. Sorry for that!


----------



## AlbertSmithers

I won't lie, as the time has gone by since I first heard it, I'm definitely humming it in my head now, that's sorta magical!


----------



## Ex Legatum

José Herring said:


> Yes, he has been. Obi-Wan is fascinating because he was never the most capable Jedi but somehow always managed to get the job done.


Not the most capable? He single handedly outsmarted Darth Vader, twice. In expanded he's considered not naturally gifted, thus he made up for it with training double as much.


----------



## CT

Whatever one thinks of the theme, I am certain that it is what it is because it's what he was asked for, not because he's "nowhere near the top of his game" or just couldn't give a crap.

This, written in the last year or two, does not sound like the work of someone whose artistic edge and dedication to his craft have waned.


----------



## jbuhler

I like the theme and I like the show so far. The show is written as a television show, not a movie or set of movies, and that suits the material, both the music and the show, which so far has basically been a character study (the name of the show suggests that will continue to be the case over the course of the series). I think the theme fits who Obiwan is at the beginning of the show and the theme also has the potential to become something more again, to grow worthy of transforming into the Force theme as Obiwan becomes worthy again of being tagged by the Force theme. Beyond the echoes of the Force theme, the Obiwan theme has sufficient echoes of the other SW material, especially the implied harmonic oscillation between i and VI to draw a parallel to Vader. In context of the show, the music sits well and the theme sits well with the other musical materials. If it's not quite the saga music, it mirrors Obiwan's proximity at this point to the saga. 

I agree with those who find the full arrangement of the theme as it was released meandering. (Indeed when I first heard the theme on Friday, that was the exact word I used to describe it.) In the context of the show so far that hardly matters, since the more complete form is only used for the end credits, and as a suite of material to be exploited the meandering character hardly matters either. But perhaps even here the meandering form draws its inspiration from the character, a hero who has by the beginning of the show whittled himself down to a state of inaction and who even after the end of the second show seems not at all sure of himself and his ability to to take action. Yet for all that theme presents a sense of balance and equilibrium that seems to mean that Obiwan will always find a way to stabilize, to find sure footing.


----------



## polynaeus

Michaelt said:


> Whatever one thinks of the theme, I am certain that it is what it is because it's what he was asked for, not because he's "nowhere near the top of his game" or just couldn't give a crap.
> 
> This, written in the last year or two, does not sound like the work of someone whose artistic edge and dedication to his craft have waned.



Not memorable! I’m not humming this!  I kid.

Yes this is beautiful. So nice to hear J Dub outside of the silver screen confines. I’d follow Mr Williams wherever he meanders to. I enjoy the scenic route.


----------



## Chris Schmidt

MikeH said:


> You can love or hate the piece, but to suggest Williams is even capable of phoning something in or giving low-effort is willful ignorance of the man and his character.


Yes, I understand that people never change over time, he can do no wrong and would never ever do something low-effort no matter how obvious it is that this theme is dramatically-lower effort than virtually everything else he's ever done in his entire career — to the point it isn't even recognizable as his own work.

At age 90 and having previously said he's "done" with Star Wars films, I think around when "Solo" came out, he undoubtedly must be as all-in on it as he was when he was 40. I'll bet he can still lift as heavy as he did when he was in the army in his 20s as well.

I understand that his most-loyal fans will never believe that the man is indeed but a mortal man because halo effect, but I will say: I think that you're going to be having this argument with people more often directly proportionate to the increase in candles on his birthday cake.


----------



## Uiroo

Michaelt said:


> Whatever one thinks of the theme, I am certain that it is what it is because it's what he was asked for, not because he's "nowhere near the top of his game" or just couldn't give a crap.


Would be my impression, too. The arrangement in particular has just "generic netflix series arrangement" written all over it.
My suspicion would be producers messing with it too much.

Man the concerto is great.


----------



## Robin Thompson

Chris Schmidt said:


> Yes, I understand that people never change over time, he can do no wrong and would never ever do something low-effort no matter how obvious it is that this theme is dramatically-lower effort than virtually everything else he's ever done in his entire career — to the point it isn't even recognizable as his own work.
> 
> At age 90 and having previously said he's "done" with Star Wars films, I think around when "Solo" came out, he undoubtedly must be as all-in on it as he was when he was 40. I'll bet he can still lift as heavy as he did when he was in the army in his 20s as well.
> 
> I understand that his most-loyal fans will never believe that the man is indeed but a mortal man because halo effect, but I will say: I think that you're going to be having this argument with people more often directly proportionate to the increase in candles on his birthday cake.


🙄 You've missed the thread. Of course a 90 year old can't bench as much as a 20 year old. But he can _try as hard_. If your opinion is that Williams' capabilities are lessened compared to when he was younger, that's perfectly reasonable, though I find your negative take on this piece absurdly exaggerated. But the objection was to phrases like "low-effort" and "phoned in" - which are not judgments of his capability but of his character. Perhaps you would like to withdraw your hasty psychoanalyzation of a man you don't know, and stick to the music?


----------



## MikeH

At the 1min mark


----------



## TonalDynamics

Chris Schmidt said:


> Yes, I understand that people never change over time, he can do no wrong and would never ever do something low-effort no matter how obvious it is that this theme is dramatically-lower effort than virtually everything else he's ever done in his entire career — to the point it isn't even recognizable as his own work.
> 
> At age 90 and having previously said he's "done" with Star Wars films, I think around when "Solo" came out, he undoubtedly must be as all-in on it as he was when he was 40. I'll bet he can still lift as heavy as he did when he was in the army in his 20s as well.
> 
> I understand that his most-loyal fans will never believe that the man is indeed but a mortal man because halo effect, but I will say: I think that you're going to be having this argument with people more often directly proportionate to the increase in candles on his birthday cake.


While your points are well-taken, I think a more respectful tone regarding the man might suit you better.

I get it if respect isn't your thing, but if John doesn't deserve any, I'd be curious to know who does in your world?

Now, if you chose instead to aim this kind of ire at the _score composer_ for the show, I'd be more than understanding, because I've heard some of it now and they even had the audacity to reuse entire 4-5 bar sets of music in the pilot, i.e. _actually_ phoning it in...

Another good friend of Kathleen's, I'm sure.


----------



## dohm

The music immediately stood out from the sea of uninteresting television and movie music being produced these days. I did not even know if was John Williams when I started watching the first two episodes. A few minutes into the first episode my wife mentioned that the music was very nice, then we searched the internet for the composer. "Of Course," she proclaimed! I think it is certainly a reminder of the difference between mastering the craft and just making sounds.


----------



## polynaeus

dohm said:


> The music immediately stood out from the sea of uninteresting television and movie music being produced these days. I did not even know if was John Williams when I started watching the first two episodes. A few minutes into the first episode my wife mentioned that the music was very nice, then we searched the internet for the composer. "Of Course," she proclaimed! I think it is certainly a reminder of the difference between mastering the craft and just making sounds.


I don’t know that the music IN the show, the score, if any of it is directly John Williams.


----------



## dohm

For a group connecting through common interests in a craft requiring primarily mental skills, not physical abilities, there sure is a lot of ageism on this forum. Maybe a little too much fantasy football being applied here...


----------



## MikeH

polynaeus said:


> I don’t know that the music IN the show, the score, if any of it is directly John Williams.


Correct. As far as I know John wrote the main theme and Bill Ross adapted it into some cues (including the End Credits). Not sure if this extends beyond the first two episodes but anything resembling JW’s sound is more than likely Bill Ross.


----------



## AlexRuger

AlbertSmithers said:


> it reminds me of the spiderman ps4 theme (but better)


I thought the same thing. The melody is identical until he hits the 5th, whereas the Spider-Man game hits the 4th.

JW's theme here is nice and all, but...why exactly did Obi-Wan require another theme? I suppose it's because his theme has at this point been completely watered down and has usurped the actual main theme of the series as the new unofficial main theme? I mean, his theme was always a little murky in that it was also the Force theme, and clearly the majority of people have seen it as the Force theme and _only _the Force theme for years now, but...man, I really missed hearing those notes when he first showed up. 

Personally this show really isn't working for me. As much as I loved Natalie Holt's Loki score, her Obi-Wan score is completely lacking in any sort of style, aesthetic, vibe...but then again, so is the show. Considering how her Loki score was _dripping _with vibe, and considering how the directing, editing, acting (even from my boy Ewan, who gave easily the best performance in the prequels), costumes, sets, etc is _all _similarly stale and style-less, I have to assume it's not so much her as it is Lucasfilm. Boba Fett and this show are both honestly just plain bad. They feel like they have the production value of Power Rangers and at times literally feel like a fan film. Like, that part in the first episode where Flea is chasing Leia (that's the first time anyone has uttered that sentence, I think) -- it _genuinely_ felt like a home movie. I know directing kids is hard, but come on. 

It's kind of flabbergasting how completely and utterly they're dropping the ball. It's not even like the prequels wherein the broad story was fine, it was just horribly executed; in the Disney era, it genuinely feels like it's a bunch of first-time filmmakers who don't even know _what _story they want to tell, let alone are able to decently execute it. Over time it's seeming like the bright spots of The Mandalorian are the exceptions that prove the rule.

I _want _to believe that Star Wars can survive without JW, but so far none of the non-JW Star Wars scores (besides those that are clearly in his style -- Gordy Haab, John Powell, etc) work for me. They instantly make the show feel like just-another-generic-scifi-show. Perhaps it's a problem of execution and that it's still possible to write music that doesn't feel like his stuff and make it work, but as time goes on I'm losing faith in that possibility. JW's sound is so completely intertwined with everything else that makes Star Wars _Star Wars. _I'm actually surprised at the extent to which his music feels vital to the identity of the franchise.


----------



## TonalDynamics

dohm said:


> The music immediately stood out from the sea of uninteresting television and movie music being produced these days. I did not even know if was John Williams when I started watching the first two episodes. A few minutes into the first episode my wife mentioned that the music was very nice, then we searched the internet for the composer. "Of Course," she proclaimed! I think it is certainly a reminder of the difference between mastering the craft and just making sounds.


John is not the score composer for the series, only the main theme.


----------



## SupremeFist

AlexRuger said:


> Like, that part in the first episode where Flea is chasing Leia (that's the first time anyone has uttered that sentence, I think)


Wait, Flea from the Chili Peppers is in this show? Now I'm interested.


----------



## NoamL

AlexRuger said:


> in the Disney era, it genuinely feels like it's a bunch of first-time filmmakers who don't even know _what _story they want to tell, let alone are able to decently execute it.


That's my feeling as well. They are all very enthusiastic about Star Wars but nobody quite knows what to do with it.

There's a difference between the person who created Mickey Mouse, and the person who has "wanted their whole life" to grow up and be a Mickey mascot at a Disney park because "Mickey is such an iconic character" and "they want to bring joy to families" and "they're happy to be part of bringing Mickey to life."

The list of things the creator of Mickey can make Mickey do is: whatever he wants

the list of things the Mickey mascot can do is governed by some 3 ring binder show-bible of examples of all the things that would be in character or out of character for Mickey citing precedents from all of Mickey's appearances across multiple media franchises. So that the mascot's performance can stay faithful to the Mickey brand and handover Mickey to a new generation of "creators"

That distinction feels similar to pre and post acquisition Star Wars. They're being too careful about what they create and they're too invested in the "importance" of things that are not iconic within the storyteller's universe, they are only iconic to audiences. In Mickey's universe Mickey is just some dude. In the Star Wars universe people don't just drop everything and deliver a standing ovation when Princess Leia walks into a room.

All of these movies and tv shows also feel driven by "what content do we want to include" not what story to tell. The stormtrooper/new empire stuff BOGGED DOWN the hell out of the sequels. In all that runtime I believe they only did TWO things that were not already in the Empire's 3 ring binder. 1) women can be stormtroopers too, 2) Finn's origin story (which I loved).

Everything else about the Empire and Rebels stuff in the sequels was purely rote, it could have been in a fanmade Star Wars home movie. In a way the most insulting thing about the sequels is that they renamed the Rebels and Empire and thought by doing so they could convince people they were creating something new and being bold with the story.

Say what you will about the prequels, but at no point was Dexter Jettster on some list of "things that have to be in this movie." It was just George Lucas's dumb idea. I prefer bad original movies to bland ones.


----------



## rpaillot

Chris Schmidt said:


> I'm not obligated to go on an in-depth critical analysis and breakdown like reviewing a 16-year-old's FL studio composition on a forum just because I said it isn't great when all that anyone has to do to tell is _listen_ to the piece in a question without the fanboy goggles on and much of what I can say about it has already been said.
> 
> A guy in his 90s, especially one with the legacy of JW, is not going to be anywhere near the top of his game, with anything, and it's not some sort of "-ism" to point that out. That's just how life goes.
> 
> His music for the sequels wasn't even as good as the prequels or original trilogy and that seems to be essentially the consensus.
> 
> The piece meanders, the ostinato sort of accompaniment that comes in around the 1-minute mark is lazy, annoying, and actually steps on the melody which has barely any movement itself relative to the strings, which doesn't even seem to have any doublings or anything to make it wider and stand out.
> 
> There's no real energy or excitement to the piece, not much going on at all (especially by his standards), and huge sections of the piece are essentially more just like slow choral-like passages or chords with drawn-out lines on top that I can't even remember how they go after several listens now. The thematic structure of all the new material he composed are also very weak and don't have anywhere near the articulation, dynamic range and attention to detail (some of this may be the particular orchestra's fault) that a more somber piece should have. Listen to what he did for stuff like Schindler's List, Across The Stars, Battle of the Heroes, etc. That's the kind of attention to detail with orchestration, counter-lines, etc. that this piece should also have and younger JW absolutely would have done and probably spent considerable time working on.
> 
> The transitions are also pretty awful and the arrangement doesn't really have any coherent "flow" to it. Listen to 2:49 for example. It's like he just said "fuck it, horns now" and that was it. Compare that to how he masterfully handled different sections in any of his old pieces, including the Star Wars main theme (where we pan down and see the space ship) and honestly tell me you think this holds a candle to it.
> 
> No serious use of winds, choir, percussion (pitched or no), runs, and other ornamentation that this piece would strongly-benefit from having. Gone is also the sort of call and responses he's famous for and we're instead just left with large portions of no movement at all. Most of the time it's just one section has takes the lead and the other is doing some chords, almost like a pad, and that's it.
> 
> Listen to the ending as well. This actually sounds like a beginner trailer composer's attempt at a climax and that annoying 4-note pattern also returns, but this time in the brass.
> 
> The entire thing sounds pretty low-effort and uninspired — and yes, I guarantee you both Star Wars burn out and his age play a considerable part.
> 
> But as I've said: I don't hold it against him in the least. He's still my favorite 20th-Century Orchestral Composer. I respect that he's still composing _at all_.
> 
> 100 years from now, the guy's compendium of excellent orchestral music will still be revered and putting asses in seats in concert halls. This just won't be among them.
> 
> So it's really no big deal if, at age 90, he just phones in a mediocre piece for what is probably a trash series for the sake of having something to do and put a few more million in the inheritance for his great-great grandchildren.


The only thing I would agree with all you said (99% i dont agree at all...) is the sound of the orchestra. Honestly I don't like the sound of the hollywood orchestra in recent John Williams work. (including SW7-8-9) 

I don't clearly understand why it doesnt sound as good as decades before... the musicians are all great. But the sound... it sounds too close mic'ed, not enough reverb, depth. I don't like this recent trend of close mic'ing orchestras like this... people dont like the sound of a decca tree anymore ?


----------



## polynaeus

AlexRuger said:


> I thought the same thing. The melody is identical until he hits the 5th, whereas the Spider-Man game hits the 4th.
> 
> JW's theme here is nice and all, but...why exactly did Obi-Wan require another theme? I suppose it's because his theme has at this point been completely watered down and has usurped the actual main theme of the series as the new unofficial main theme? I mean, his theme was always a little murky in that it was also the Force theme, and clearly the majority of people have seen it as the Force theme and _only _the Force theme for years now, but...man, I really missed hearing those notes when he first showed up.
> 
> Personally this show really isn't working for me. As much as I loved Natalie Holt's Loki score, her Obi-Wan score is completely lacking in any sort of style, aesthetic, vibe...but then again, so is the show. Considering how her Loki score was _dripping _with vibe, and considering how the directing, editing, acting (even from my boy Ewan, who gave easily the best performance in the prequels), costumes, sets, etc is _all _similarly stale and style-less, I have to assume it's not so much her as it is Lucasfilm. Boba Fett and this show are both honestly just plain bad. They feel like they have the production value of Power Rangers and at times literally feel like a fan film. Like, that part in the first episode where Flea is chasing Leia (that's the first time anyone has uttered that sentence, I think) -- it _genuinely_ felt like a home movie. I know directing kids is hard, but come on.
> 
> It's kind of flabbergasting how completely and utterly they're dropping the ball. It's not even like the prequels wherein the broad story was fine, it was just horribly executed; in the Disney era, it genuinely feels like it's a bunch of first-time filmmakers who don't even know _what _story they want to tell, let alone are able to decently execute it. Over time it's seeming like the bright spots of The Mandalorian are the exceptions that prove the rule.
> 
> I _want _to believe that Star Wars can survive without JW, but so far none of the non-JW Star Wars scores (besides those that are clearly in his style -- Gordy Haab, John Powell, etc) work for me. They instantly make the show feel like just-another-generic-scifi-show. Perhaps it's a problem of execution and that it's still possible to write music that doesn't feel like his stuff and make it work, but as time goes on I'm losing faith in that possibility. JW's sound is so completely intertwined with everything else that makes Star Wars _Star Wars. _I'm actually surprised at the extent to which his music feels vital to the identity of the franchise.


Yeah I agree the kids were directed very poorly. The “chase” was so bad.


----------



## MikeH

rpaillot said:


> The only thing I would agree with all you said (99% i dont agree at all...) is the sound of the orchestra. Honestly I don't like the sound of the hollywood orchestra in recent John Williams work. (including SW7-8-9)
> 
> I don't clearly understand why it doesnt sound as good as decades before... the musicians are all great. But the sound... it sounds too close mic'ed, not enough reverb, depth. I don't like this recent trend of close mic'ing orchestras like this... people dont like the sound of a decca tree anymore ?


It might have something to do with trying to get through the wall of sound effects. The Force Awakens mix is really heavy on the brass on the album, nearly wiping out all the woodwinds. If you listen to a live performance of March of the Resistance there’s so much woodwind work that gets lost on the album recording. 

The Last Jedi does have a more “prequel verby” sound which I find better suited to his writing. The original albums for the prequels had a substantial amount of reverb added to them. If you listen to the film mix and the latest 2018 album remasters of those films, the mixing is much drier. However I really don’t recommend the newer album remasters for the prequels because a lot of the performance edits (which had to be redone from scratch) are sloppy and jarring. 

I believe a lot of the percussion for Revenge of the Sith (mainly the war drums) was recorded separately which is unique for JW. I’m sure he did it for the flexibility during the final mix but he greatly prefers having it all done live “in the room” for the obvious musical reasons.


----------



## AlexRuger

NoamL said:


> That's my feeling as well. They are all very enthusiastic about Star Wars but nobody quite knows what to do with it.
> 
> There's a difference between the person who created Mickey Mouse, and the person who has "wanted their whole life" to grow up and be a Mickey mascot at a Disney park because "Mickey is such an iconic character" and "they want to bring joy to families" and "they're happy to be part of bringing Mickey to life."
> 
> The list of things the creator of Mickey can make Mickey do is: whatever he wants
> 
> the list of things the Mickey mascot can do is governed by some 3 ring binder show-bible of examples of all the things that would be in character or out of character for Mickey citing precedents from all of Mickey's appearances across multiple media franchises. So that the mascot's performance can stay faithful to the Mickey brand and handover Mickey to a new generation of "creators"
> 
> That distinction feels similar to pre and post acquisition Star Wars. They're being too careful about what they create and they're too invested in the "importance" of things that are not iconic within the storyteller's universe, they are only iconic to audiences. In Mickey's universe Mickey is just some dude. In the Star Wars universe people don't just drop everything and deliver a standing ovation when Princess Leia walks into a room.


Ridiculously well-put. You just put words to something I've been struggling to put a finger on for a while now.


----------



## Gerbil

SupremeFist said:


> Wait, Flea from the Chili Peppers is in this show? Now I'm interested.


----------



## TonalDynamics

NoamL said:


> the list of things the Mickey mascot can do is governed by some 3 ring binder show-bible of examples of all the things that would be in character or out of character for Mickey citing precedents from all of Mickey's appearances across multiple media franchises. So that the mascot's performance can stay faithful to the Mickey brand and handover Mickey to a new generation of "creators"


At which point Mickey stops imitating life, and starts imitating himself... thus becoming a caricature _of_ himself. Well said.

Thinking about how many countless series and franchises have gone down this exact route in the last 5 years... such a waste.

Noam this post was so nice, I read it twice.

Cheers


----------



## dohm

MikeH said:


> Correct. As far as I know John wrote the main theme and Bill Ross adapted it into some cues (including the End Credits). Not sure if this extends beyond the first two episodes but anything resembling JW’s sound is more than likely Bill Ross.


Good to know. I think he did a great job.


----------



## AdamKmusic

Ex Legatum said:


> The composer credit is set to Natalie Holt?


There are 3 additional composers on the show, as with all big budget films / shows the household name will have the main credit


----------



## iMovieShout

...and my good neighbour (well 10 minutes from me) did the score. Well done to Nat Holt


----------



## MarcMahler89

SupremeFist said:


> Wait, Flea from the Chili Peppers is in this show? Now I'm interested.


Dont worry, youll be pleased in discovering one of the worst acted moments in TV-History. I loved the rest so far though! No further spoilers =)


----------



## NoamL

TonalDynamics said:


> At which point Mickey stops imitating life, and starts imitating himself... thus becoming a caricature _of_ himself. Well said.
> 
> Thinking about how many countless series and franchises have gone down this exact route in the last 5 years... such a waste.
> 
> Noam this post was so nice, I read it twice.
> 
> Cheers


It's this weird generational change isn't it.

Funnily enough I don't think it has happened in music at all. I really dug both John Debney's and Henry Jackman's takes on Alan Silvestri's musical universe for "Predator," for example.

Or Zimmer's score for NTTD for that matter.

Maybe there is something about music that makes it easier to play in someone else's sandbox while still bringing your own artistry....


----------



## Chris Schmidt

TonalDynamics said:


> While your points are well-taken, I think a more respectful tone regarding the man might suit you better.
> 
> I get it if respect isn't your thing, but if John doesn't deserve any, I'd be curious to know who does in your world?
> 
> Now, if you chose instead to aim this kind of ire at the _score composer_ for the show, I'd be more than understanding, because I've heard some of it now and they even had the audacity to reuse entire 4-5 bar sets of music in the pilot, i.e. _actually_ phoning it in...
> 
> Another good friend of Kathleen's, I'm sure.


I have stated numerous times that I do respect John Williams.

Like many, he is my favorite film composer. I grew up loving his music like everyone else did.

I would gladly sit down and have tea with him in the nursing home, and I would listen intently to his life story and anything he would have to say about music I would be unlikely to ever forget.

I will never be as good of an orchestral composer as he is, or at least as he was in his prime. His "prime" spanned the better-part of 50 years, and he has left a musical legacy that most can only dream of leaving. He was still cranking out better scores at age 83 than most, but even those scores were noticeably less-ambitious and polished as the works he made in his prime.

However, like all people eventually get to be, _especially when they are almost literally a century old_, he is now past his prime and there is no shame in that.

Therefore, I can also respect it if his heart isn't as in it as it used to be, if he doesn't have the energy for it to put in the kind of effort he used to be able to, if cognitive decline (which is inevitable at his age) is having a negative impact on his music, if he cut some corners, if his latest isn't a masterpiece after having written so many, etc.

and it obvious that's what's going on with this particular piece and that phenomena will only increase with time

I can respect _that_.


----------



## MikeH

Chris, how old are you if you don’t mind my asking?


----------



## MarcMahler89

Chris Schmidt said:


> ...


Truthbombs. Nevertheless, you forget that no composer can get the result other people desire just because of his resume. This applies to _every _great composer alive today as well. And this applies to me personally as well, when i expect my next work to *at least* hold up to the previous


----------



## Ivan Duch

I got the same feeling about the show and the soundtrack in general.

I feel Jedi: Faller Order or even the animated series pulled the whole setting (Post Republic Fall) waaaay better than this show. Particularly from a musical point of view.

They keep trying to move away from John Williams style, which doesn't make any sense to me. Because they're just moving to a lot of generic-sounding stuff instead. I have big respect for The Mandalorian's soundtrack, though.

I think if you don't have a budget you can still sound like low-budget Star Wars, like Clone Wars or Rebels did.

Not to mention the great stuff Gordy Haab writes. I mean you already have a guy creating awesome themes in Star Wars style, just hire that guy. Or John Powell, or any of the composers in this forum who can pull it off.

I also liked Loki's soundtrack, but I think Disney doesn't know what they want with Star Wars.


----------



## RonOrchComp

Reading all the comments makes me think. And I respect everyone's opinion; you are all entitled to feel the way yo do. And there have been fair points made. 

But if nobody on this forum knew that the composer was John Williams - if you were all told that "someone" wrote the main theme for ObiWan and here it is - the vast majority of you would be drooling, and wishing you could compose and orchestrate music like that. And that is not a criticism - fact is, there are very few composers who would be able to pull that off - write something that works, write something fresh, and still remain within the Star Wars universe.


----------



## polynaeus

Chris Schmidt said:


> I would gladly sit down and have tea with him in the nursing home,


Good lord…


----------



## Chris Schmidt

MarcMahler89 said:


> Truthbombs. Nevertheless, you forget that no composer can get the result other people desire just because of his resume. This applies to _every _great composer alive today as well. And this applies to me personally as well, when i expect my next work to *at least* hold up to the previous


I'm not entirely sure I agree with the first half. 

John Williams has proven himself plenty, and that's what it comes down to for me. What I'm saying is, there comes a time where you just can't expect things to get better. They will either stagnate and inevitably, fail to live up to the previous standard. Everything declines eventually — it's nature.

Pretending that the worse result is actually totally just as good as what came before is where the problem comes in.

The dominant philosophy of our time — although it is incorrect — is that everyone is a totally blank-slate individual limited only by their imaginations. Biology, genetics, and other immutable characteristics pose no obstacle.

That's why you see posts like this:



polynaeus said:


> Good lord…


Only in the modern, upside down world do people find the idea that a guy in his 90s would or soon will be in a nursing home to be "offensive" or some sort of "ism".

But we _are_ limited, and everything has its peak. I will never be good at drawing or painting no matter how hard I try and wish that I was — I do not have, nor have I ever had, the level of motor control required to be good at it. That will only become worse with time.

While aiming to make your next piece better or at least as good as the last is the right mentality, the fact remains that at some point, you will compose your best one and you'll never top it. You also won't be as motivated and "on" when you're 90 — if you are lucky to even live that long. You will decline.


----------



## Chris Schmidt

MikeH said:


> Chris, how old are you if you don’t mind my asking?


----------



## MusicIstheBest

Sounds like the opening to Bruckner's 4th. 

I'll probably have to hear it more to appreciate it. I wasn't crazy about Rey's theme at first, but now think it's the best highlight of the sequel trilogy and one of his best overall.


----------



## chillbot

MusicIstheBest said:


> I wasn't crazy about Rey's theme at first, but now think it's the best highlight of the sequel trilogy and one of his best overall.


Funny I just said the exact same thing the other day in the same context (discussing this Obi Wan theme which I don't love at first).


----------



## TonalDynamics

Ivan Duch said:


> They keep trying to move away from John Williams style, which doesn't make any sense to me. Because they're just moving to a lot of generic-sounding stuff instead


THIS, exactly.

Star Wars music IS star wars, there's no point at which one begins and the other ends...

Maybe they are trying desperately to change that subliminally, since John is no longer going to be directly involved with the music and they don't feel anyone is up to snuff to recreate his aesthetic?

I agree with you, there are plenty of guys who can do 'close enough' to JW Star Wars music that I don't get why they aren't hiring _those _people specifically...


----------



## RonOrchComp

TonalDynamics said:


> Maybe they are trying desperately to change that subliminally, since John is no longer going to be directly involved with the music and they don't feel anyone is up to snuff to recreate his aesthetic?


I think it is this.


TonalDynamics said:


> there are plenty of guys who can do 'close enough' to JW Star Wars music that I don't get why they aren't hiring _those _people specifically...



Who? The only two guys that I know of who can do 'close enough' to JW Star Wars music is John Powell and Mike Verta. They ain't hiring Mike, and maybe JP said no? 

Who else am I missing?


----------



## TonalDynamics

RonOrchComp said:


> Who? The only two guys that I know of who can do 'close enough' to JW Star Wars music is John Powell and Mike Verta. They ain't hiring Mike, and maybe JP said no?
> 
> Who else am I missing?


Well actually yeah, 'close enough' as in, 'within the same style but obviously not the man himself'--I think even settling for that would be the best we could hope for.

Powell is of course the ideal candidate, he proved he was capable of the expansive, sweeping style that's at least within the same realm of SW with the work he did on HtTYD.

Incidentally, there's a certain measure in that score, I believe it's where he's discovering the dragon lore, or something (?) where he brings in some deep Gregorian choral hums, and it's almost Sith-like; very reminiscent of "The Emperor's Theme", or rather 'Old norse legends and runes of power' type of a vibe, but I can imagine _that_ kind of orchestration specifically working marvelously in the SW universe.

The current 'not sure if it wants to be electronic or orchestral' thing they have going on, not so much...
the current score seems to have a bit of an identity crisis.


----------



## Chris Schmidt

RonOrchComp said:


> Who else am I missing?


Alain Mayrand, JJay Berthume, Benny Oschmann, Mattia Chiappa and quite a number of composers no one has ever heard of and get buried under the YouTube algorithms. 

It is not that the JW, Romantic-era style isn't out there still, it's that it's not in the Hollywood "club" anymore and it takes too much effort and dedication, as well as the dreaded innate knack for, so most composers don't bother even trying to learn.

A guy on another forum told me that when he studied composition at some university, they "didn't even talk about" melody writing.

So you can't expect people who think there is no actual craft to any of this stuff and that "standards don't real" and that a cat running across a keyboard's music is actually just as good as Jerry Goldsmith because *hits blunt* "_it's like, all subjective maaaan_" to compose something on par with "Happy Birthday" never mind Hedwig's Theme.


----------



## antames

I like the theme and think it fits the tone of the show. Perhaps this is what the directors / producers requested - something less grandiose and more restrained to reflect the mood and context the show is set in.


----------



## NoamL

Ivan Duch said:


> I think if you don't have a budget you can still sound like low-budget Star Wars, like Clone Wars or Rebels did.


Weren't those 100%-VI scores?


----------



## NoamL

About the "imitation Williams" crowd...

Just IMO, the "Sweeping tonal theme" JW (Adventures On Earth, Buckbeak's Flight, Flight To Neverland, The Mission) is the easiest part to copy... especially if you shamelessly copy his orchestration techniques too.... And the hardest part is the kinda jazz/octatonic/set theory part that motivates his ambiguous sounding underscores, tension pieces and action music.

Gordy is certainly in that camp (of people who know the 2nd kind of language). Benjamin Wallfisch seems crazy literate too.

JW also doesn't need to be your only model for this language, Jerry Goldsmith, Basil Poledouris, David Arnold, each were playing around with this same language in different ways in the 90s...


----------



## Ivan Duch

RonOrchComp said:


> I think it is this.
> 
> 
> Who? The only two guys that I know of who can do 'close enough' to JW Star Wars music is John Powell and Mike Verta. They ain't hiring Mike, and maybe JP said no?
> 
> Who else am I missing?


For my taste, Gordy Haab has done a great job. Have you listened to Jedi: Fallen Order soundtrack? But you don't even need to get that far. Are they trying to cut costs? Kevin Kiner did a low-budget version of Star Wars music for Clone Wars, and he did a good job, considering most of it were VSTs until the last season. It sounds like Star Wars to me.

If you stay orchestral and use most of the language John Williams created for Star Wars (which isn't the same he uses for his other soundtracks), not to mention the themes... It will sound like Star Wars.

The groundwork is done. They're recycling everything except the music.

In that sense, Mandalorian did a good job, of using the themes one loves and linking to places and characters. Even if Ludwig Göransson evidently went in a different direction, he constantly suggested the classic stuff, which was good enough for me (even if I prefer more of John Williams' sound).

I mean, come on, why the hell aren't you using all that material? You bring back Tatooine but not the music we associate with Tatooine, feels like something is missing to me.




TonalDynamics said:


> Maybe they are trying desperately to change that subliminally, since John is no longer going to be directly involved with the music and they don't feel anyone is up to snuff to recreate his aesthetic?


Yes, I think it's something like that. They started by trying to mimic him with John Powell and Michael Giacchino, though. Not sure why they discarded the idea.

I think it goes beyond John Williams not being around anymore. I think at some level they feel the new generations (probably their target) might not enjoy that type of music. Maybe they're even right, I don't know.


----------



## Ivan Duch

NoamL said:


> Weren't those 100%-VI scores?


Yes, I think so. Except for maybe something Kevin Kiner might have recorded in his studio. All except for the final season which actually hires an orchestra, and sounds awesome. 

But even with the 100% VSTs approach, the themes are there. the vibe is there. Of course, it's not John Williams, and it's low budget, but it sounds like Star Wars to me.


----------



## TonalDynamics

Chris Schmidt said:


> It is not that the JW, Romantic-era style isn't out there still, it's that it's not in the Hollywood "club" anymore and it takes too much effort and dedication, as well as the dreaded innate knack for, so most composers don't bother even trying to learn.


So it's literally 'the force', then, at this point--an ancient and forgotten religion--and yet also somehow the key to true power? 

😮


----------



## Chris Schmidt

TonalDynamics said:


> So it's literally 'the force', then, at this point--an ancient and forgotten religion--and yet also somehow the key to true power?
> 
> 😮


MIDIchlorians


----------



## polynaeus

Chris Schmidt said:


> I'm not entirely sure I agree with the first half.
> 
> John Williams has proven himself plenty, and that's what it comes down to for me. What I'm saying is, there comes a time where you just can't expect things to get better. They will either stagnate and inevitably, fail to live up to the previous standard. Everything declines eventually — it's nature.
> 
> Pretending that the worse result is actually totally just as good as what came before is where the problem comes in.
> 
> The dominant philosophy of our time — although it is incorrect — is that everyone is a totally blank-slate individual limited only by their imaginations. Biology, genetics, and other immutable characteristics pose no obstacle.
> 
> That's why you see posts like this:
> 
> 
> Only in the modern, upside down world do people find the idea that a guy in his 90s would or soon will be in a nursing home to be "offensive" or some sort of "ism".
> 
> But we _are_ limited, and everything has its peak. I will never be good at drawing or painting no matter how hard I try and wish that I was — I do not have, nor have I ever had, the level of motor control required to be good at it. That will only become worse with time.
> 
> While aiming to make your next piece better or at least as good as the last is the right mentality, the fact remains that at some point, you will compose your best one and you'll never top it. You also won't be as motivated and "on" when you're 90 — if you are lucky to even live that long. You will decline.


Suit yourself homie, if that’s the curse you’d like to place yourself under. I know a number of seniors and relatives who have lived to be a ripe old age and didn’t go out in a nursing home and had clear eyes and a clear mind. It’s a very Western mindset to believe that path about health and wellness.

As mentioned before. You have a very bleak outlook on JW’s music and apparently in life. So I guess what you behold you will become, so be it for you, but not for me.

I renounce your Simpson meme!


----------



## Ricgus3

I listened to the theme today with my friend and we both got the same feeling, it was a darker/brooding theme. More like a Batman or Moonight, or Mandalorien or Jango Fett theme. I love Obiwan and read alot of fiction that exist before episode 1 (when he was a young padawan and on adventure with qui-gon). I always got the feeling that Obi-wan has a brighter, hopefull musical aura, if that makes sense. 
So for me I like the second half of the music. But I also find it not fitting with Obi-wan. Whished for a more hopeful/brighter theme.





On the note of the show: I see potentiall in it. But i am abit tired of the "I got old and grumpy" writing. Picard, Luke etc. I really hope it was just for the start of the Show As I don't see the way Ewan portray the character to be that type. More that he might find his way again and the force and balance in his life.


----------



## Ricgus3

RonOrchComp said:


> Reading all the comments makes me think. And I respect everyone's opinion; you are all entitled to feel the way yo do. And there have been fair points made.
> 
> But if nobody on this forum knew that the composer was John Williams - if you were all told that "someone" wrote the main theme for ObiWan and here it is - the vast majority of you would be drooling, and wishing you could compose and orchestrate music like that. And that is not a criticism - fact is, there are very few composers who would be able to pull that off - write something that works, write something fresh, and still remain within the Star Wars universe.


I got the opposite feeling. I listened to it and though: If this wasn't Williams, people would not like it , this was before I read online people were not that fond of it. But I respect him alot and I think theme is a strong, darker theme. Love the second half of it. But if it was an unknown composer I think I would have liked it less


----------



## handz

The theme is kind of disappointing to me, I was looking forward to an old-school JW theme material. But it is more on a level of Galaxy's Edge than Prequels music. JW still can do his signature style perfectly well - Overture to the Oscars is a proof of this, but for some reason, he does not make his SW music as he used to. 

I listened to this new theme like 10 times and I still really didn't like it that much, it is an ok SW filler music but as a standalone theme - it really lacks and I find the orchestration to be really weak and not supporting the writing. There is not really any buildup or development of the theme in the end which is something I miss here a lot :(

I really am quite shocked how many people defending this theme, look, JW is my most favorite movie composer ever, he is a god for me BUT let's be honest, this is a weak theme from him.


----------



## AlbertSmithers

Could it be that the melodic writing is on par with what he usually does, but it's the orchestration that differs compared to what most are used to hearing?


----------



## handz

José Herring said:


> Watching the show now. The theme makes perfect sense and it is quite brilliant for the context of the show.


Well yeah, the show is as mediocre as the theme, sadly :(

This is JW, his music ALWAYS worked standalone, especially themes, I didn't even see some of the movies he scored but listened to the scores 10x, at least. I saw the 2 episodes, the music is weak and the theme is drowning there, and the fact Disney didn't use any of his original music for Ep 2 and 3 in the flashback scenes is pure heresy



Andreyfw said:


> It's strong, epic and easily feet into Star Wars vibe.


Except that it is NOT epic, strong, or has an SW vibe...


Ivan Duch said:


> They keep trying to move away from John Williams style, which doesn't make any sense to me. Because they're just moving to a lot of generic-sounding stuff instead. I have big respect for The Mandalorian's soundtrack, though.


Yeah, this is absolutely insane, Star Wars Franchise has always been connected to the epic orchestral music of JW, Disney is so CLUELESS about this franchise or maybe, they really want to destroy all the old SW iconic elements, Legacy of Luke, Han, Leia, JWs music, they are just plain ruining everything that was for decades synonymous with SW. 
Replacing classic SW style of music with absolutely generic modern series music is plain horrible. And if they really think that the new generation of kids won't like orchestral music - they are silly, kids will learn to like it, if they will be in contact with it, but if you play them just hip hop and generic electronic music, they will sadly not explore anything else from the music world. I am not the biggest fan of the Mandalorian soundtrack BUT, considering it is half Western show half SW, the music is actually perfectly fitting, it has both kinds of music in it. And it is MEMORABLE.



AlbertSmithers said:


> Could it be that the melodic writing is on par with what he usually does, but it's the orchestration that differs compared to what most are used to hearing?


The orchestration is really really weak, it is like JW made some quick sketch of the theme and someone finished the work with not much effort, still, I find the melodies here a bit bland for JWs standards.


----------



## FireGS

I prefer this. It's not SW, but the horn intro and the string writing are amazing.


----------



## Ivan Duch

handz said:


> I am not the biggest fan of the Mandalorian soundtrack BUT, considering it is half Western show half SW, the music is actually perfectly fitting, it has both kinds of music in it. And it is MEMORABLE.


Yes, I have similar feelings about that soundtrack. I thought it was bold in a way, and the theme is memorable. But I still prefer stuff like what Gordy Haab did with Fallen Order.

SPOILER ALERT
But sometimes it feels like lost opportunities, like those scenes with Luke in Boba Fett series where they didn't use the force theme nor any of the old material. I mean, you're recycling characters, visuals, and places, and you don't bring back the music that connects to them? I don't understand that sort of decision. It isn't as if you needed John Williams to do it (reusing themes I mean), it has been proved by other SW shows in the past.


----------



## handz

Ivan Duch said:


> Yes, I have similar feelings about that soundtrack. I thought it was bold in a way, and the theme is memorable. But I still prefer stuff like what Gordy Haab did with Fallen Order.
> 
> SPOILER ALERT
> But sometimes it feels like lost opportunities, like those scenes with Luke in Boba Fett series where they didn't use the force theme nor any of the old material. I mean, you're recycling characters, visuals, and places, and you don't bring back the music that connects to them? I don't understand that sort of decision. It isn't as if you needed John Williams to do it (reusing themes I mean), it has been proved by other SW shows in the past.


Yes, exactly. I played the Fallen Order during the last Xmas holidays and liked the music a lot. 
And you are absolutely right - why the hell they are not using themes of the recycled characters is beyond my understanding. I stand by my opinion that Disney absolutely do not know how to work with this Franchise.


----------



## handz

FireGS said:


> I prefer this. It's not SW, but the horn intro and the string writing are amazing.



Well, this is a classic "Best Of" JW material, beautiful theme and music.


----------



## FireGS

I am softening up to this theme. I did find myself humming it in the car earlier.


----------



## method1

Love the theme, the show itself is a bit wan.


----------



## Gerbil

NoamL said:


> Weren't those 100%-VI scores?


He used a lot of the (now discontinued) Wallander instruments, I seem to remember.

I really don’t care if Star Wars going forward has a Williams vibe or not. The music in Mando is very good. But I don’t want it to sound like a crap rip-off of Williams.


----------



## Chris Schmidt

Ricgus3 said:


> I got the opposite feeling. I listened to it and though: If this wasn't Williams, people would not like it , this was before I read online people were not that fond of it. But I respect him alot and I think theme is a strong, darker theme. Love the second half of it. But if it was an unknown composer I think I would have liked it less


Heretic



handz said:


> Well yeah, the show is as mediocre as the theme, sadly :(
> 
> This is JW, his music ALWAYS worked standalone, especially themes, I didn't even see some of the movies he scored but listened to the scores 10x, at least. I saw the 2 episodes, the music is weak and the theme is drowning there, and the fact Disney didn't use any of his original music for Ep 2 and 3 in the flashback scenes is pure heresy
> 
> 
> Except that it is NOT epic, strong, or has an SW vibe...
> 
> Yeah, this is absolutely insane, Star Wars Franchise has always been connected to the epic orchestral music of JW, Disney is so CLUELESS about this franchise or maybe, they really want to destroy all the old SW iconic elements, Legacy of Luke, Han, Leia, JWs music, they are just plain ruining everything that was for decades synonymous with SW.
> Replacing classic SW style of music with absolutely generic modern series music is plain horrible. And if they really think that the new generation of kids won't like orchestral music - they are silly, kids will learn to like it, if they will be in contact with it, but if you play them just hip hop and generic electronic music, they will sadly not explore anything else from the music world. I am not the biggest fan of the Mandalorian soundtrack BUT, considering it is half Western show half SW, the music is actually perfectly fitting, it has both kinds of music in it. And it is MEMORABLE.
> 
> 
> The orchestration is really really weak, it is like JW made some quick sketch of the theme and someone finished the work with not much effort, still, I find the melodies here a bit bland for JWs standards.


Prepare thyself for crucifixion



AlbertSmithers said:


> Could it be that the melodic writing is on par with what he usually does, but it's the orchestration that differs compared to what most are used to hearing?


Both aren't great


----------



## Architekton

Maybe not the best and most memorable one from JW, but certainly on the top. I personally love it!


----------



## clisma

Not that this thread needs more opinions but my first time listening to this was on an iPad and I thought it was quite OK. Not earth-shattering (I am not a SW fan, at all, though I am fond of the original trilogy), but then again, neither is anything SW right now, at least to me. I did hear references to the original material done in clever ways - always nice.

But today I listened again in the studio and from the very first few notes, I was pulled in: it almost makes me want to watch the series because it puts me into a very specific mindset. And I do think the theme is memorable and the harmonic shifts just lovely. I'd be proud to have written this. At any age.


----------



## ryans

FireGS said:


> I am softening up to this theme. I did find myself humming it in the car earlier.


I just came back to say this as well. 

It's been stuck in my head all damn day.


----------



## Robin Thompson

method1 said:


> Love the theme, the show itself is a bit wan.


I liked this post, but I want you to know I'm not proud of myself


----------



## method1

The force is strong with this ONE.


----------



## MarcusD

I like the theme, it’s more conservative in a way. Nothing too flashy.

Just a shame about the show. Really can’t get into it. Disney have got pretty good screwing things up.

Hopefully it gets better as the series progresses. If it ends up getting worse and there’s a Vespa bike chase scene… (has horrific flashbacks) I’ll give up and wait for the next Mando series.

So far It’s still better than BOBF… and that’s saying something.


----------



## Al Maurice

Listening to the theme, it's got the John William's elements there:

the horns intorduce us in what's to come --

then it opens up and offers us hope, the central star wars tennant.

and spells a heroic fanfare, very simple and understated.

Quite modern simple, not to flashy or overstated.

Probably best to hear it in context with the rest of the soundtrack, against the visuals.


----------



## DANIELE

My Obi Wan theme is better, he could have taken something from me to make this.

I was joking, please don't kill me! But seriously, I wrote an Obi Wan theme a long time ago in a galaxy far far away.


----------



## handz

ryans said:


> I just came back to say this as well.
> 
> It's been stuck in my head all damn day.


Stockholm syndrome....

"if you stare into the abyss the abyss stares back at you"


----------



## handz

DANIELE said:


> My Obi Wan theme is better, he could have taken something from me to make this.
> 
> I was joking, please don't kill me! But seriously, I wrote an Obi Wan theme a long time ago in a galaxy far far away.


You did some nice SW style music there!


----------



## Music01Bebe

I don't know where else to say this but I feel like Natlie Holt's score to Kenobi isn't that great; Episode 3 for example didn't even have the Imperial March theme, only the same repetitive drum loop when Vader is being assembled as well as all his appearences in that ep, the least that could've been done is how Michael Giacchino arranged Imperial March for Rogue One (when vader meets Krennick for example)

Other than that most of the tracks from the rest of the episodes sound mediocore, espcially the percussion parts.

I think she's attempting to do what Ludwig did for Mandalorian, but what worked there doesn't even work here, the way she writes it. Her score for Loki though was amazing, I don't know what happened here.


----------



## AlbertSmithers

Music01Bebe said:


> I don't know where else to say this but I feel like Natlie Holt's score to Kenobi isn't that great; Episode 3 for example didn't even have the Imperial March theme, only the same repetitive drum loop when Vader is being assembled as well as all his appearences in that ep, the least that could've been done is how Michael Giacchino arranged Imperial March for Rogue One (when vader meets Krennick for example)
> 
> Other than that most of the tracks from the rest of the episodes sound mediocore, espcially the percussion parts.
> 
> I think she's attempting to do what Ludwig did for Mandalorian, but what worked there doesn't even work here, the way she writes it. Her score for Loki though was amazing, I don't know what happened here.


As a note, I love the soundtrack so far, but I wonder if there may have been licensing issues that prevented those tracks / imperial march / the force theme from coming in.


----------



## AlexRuger

AlbertSmithers said:


> As a note, I love the soundtrack so far, but I wonder if there may have been licensing issues that prevented those tracks / imperial march / the force theme from coming in.


What licensing issues? Disney owns it all.

Not using the Imperial March (which by the end of RotJ was clearly Vader's theme) in episode 3 was just madness. I don't know why Disney is so dead set on getting away from the material John Williams established, but this is just ridiculous.

The surest way to make your Star Wars thing feel like a fan film (amateur-ish filmmaking aside) is to not use these characters' themes. Darth Vader on screen without even a hint of his theme is like...I don't know, Bruce Wayne but with parents? It's a central, inarguable* part of his character.

*The exception being Giacchino using the min-maj7 Imperial theme from A New Hope in Rogue One. That was a cool touch, but also not something you can really get away with more than once.


----------



## Loerpert

Music01Bebe said:


> I don't know where else to say this but I feel like Natlie Holt's score to Kenobi isn't that great; Episode 3 for example didn't even have the Imperial March theme, only the same repetitive drum loop when Vader is being assembled as well as all his appearences in that ep, the least that could've been done is how Michael Giacchino arranged Imperial March for Rogue One (when vader meets Krennick for example)
> 
> Other than that most of the tracks from the rest of the episodes sound mediocore, espcially the percussion parts.
> 
> I think she's attempting to do what Ludwig did for Mandalorian, but what worked there doesn't even work here, the way she writes it. Her score for Loki though was amazing, I don't know what happened here.


Couldn't agree more


----------



## Oakran

Wow that's fascinating to see how much this Obi-Wan theme is polarizing people !
At least everyone seems to agree that the rest of the soundtrack not written by Williams is pretty uninspired to say the least... I do feel the same.

That was kind of a traumatic experience to watch these first 3 episodes. I really wanted to like this show, but really so far it has been quite underwhelming.
I think the first episode had some great musical moments, with the William's theme rearranged here and there (when Obi-Wan first leaves his job and wanders alone in the desert) but after that it's just embarrassing really.
Like others pointed out Disney seems to be afraid of that "classic" orchestral sound which is the signature of the SW franchise. No cheat code aka modern percussions, ostinatos and braaams everywhere.

To me it's incredible that they are doing the exact opposite of what Lucas did in the late 70s, when he asked Williams to create a full symphonic score. Doing the anti-thesis of what everyone was expecting of a Sci-Fi/Space Opera movie with the synths/disco/pop fad.
That's too bad, these movies and shows that Disney is painfully creating will not age well, that's for sure (Mandalorian was cool though). Meanwhile, we'll still be watching the original Star Wars (and even the prequel trilogy for some fools like myself) in many years to come with the next generation, our kids and grand children.
I hope they will clearly understand what makes good art and why it's not good to follow aesthetic trends just for the sake of commercial success !


----------



## AlbertSmithers

Oakran said:


> Wow that's fascinating to see how much this Obi-Wan theme is polarizing people !
> At least everyone seems to agree that the rest of the soundtrack not written by Williams is pretty uninspired to say the least... I do feel the same.
> 
> That was kind of a traumatic experience to watch these first 3 episodes. I really wanted to like this show, but really so far it has been quite underwhelming.
> I think the first episode had some great musical moments, with the William's theme rearranged here and there (when Obi-Wan first leaves his job and wanders alone in the desert) but after that it's just embarrassing really.
> Like others pointed out Disney seems to be afraid of that "classic" orchestral sound which is the signature of the SW franchise. No cheat code aka modern percussions, ostinatos and braaams everywhere.
> 
> To me it's incredible that they are doing the exact opposite of what Lucas did in the late 70s, when he asked Williams to create a full symphonic score. Doing the anti-thesis of what everyone was expecting of a Sci-Fi/Space Opera movie with the synths/disco/pop fad.
> That's too bad, these movies and shows that Disney is painfully creating will not age well, that's for sure (Mandalorian was cool though). Meanwhile, we'll still be watching the original Star Wars (and even the prequel trilogy for some fools like myself) in many years to come with the next generation, our kids and grand children.
> I hope they will clearly understand what makes good art and why it's not good to follow aesthetic trends just for the sake of commercial success !


I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on Boba Fett. Do you think Book of Boba Fett is better than Kenobi? I recently watched Boba Fett and felt like it had some cool world building aspects, and I was really into the characters, and although the ending was definitely rushed, I enjoyed it more than Kenobi (so far at least).


----------



## Music01Bebe

Oakran said:


> I think the first episode had some great musical moments, with the William's theme rearranged here and there (when Obi-Wan first leaves his job and wanders alone in the desert) but after that it's just embarrassing really.
> No cheat code aka modern percussions, ostinatos and braaams everywhere.
> I hope they will clearly understand what makes good art and why it's not good to follow aesthetic trends just for the sake of commercial success !


Most of the music took me out of the picture whilst watching. The Mandalorian was a new creation with a character and characters unseen before and Ludwig created the sonic pallete perfectly, blending classical and unique sound creations to fit the emotional themes, locations etc. It felt respectful to Star Wars.

Kenobi is a _sequel _to the prequels and music wise I really thought it would follow the path that John Williams set upon.


----------



## Chris Schmidt

Oakran said:


> Like others pointed out Disney seems to be afraid of that "classic" orchestral sound which is the signature of the SW franchise.


It's not just Disney, is the thing though.

Pretty much all of Hollywood has been afraid of that sound and waging a war on quality for the last 15 years.

The only place you hear real orchestral music in films/TV anymore is in children's stuff like How To Train Your Dragon.

Which I suspect reflects this bizarre trend of trying to make child's stuff appeal to adults, and things that should be for adults aimed at much younger audiences.

The Superhero genre seems to be where it started.


----------



## MA-Simon

Oakran said:


> Doing the anti-thesis of what everyone was expecting of a Sci-Fi/Space Opera movie with the synths/disco/pop fad.


Well... The 70s are long, long past. What is it, 50 years? I think it is perfectly fine to explore new things.


----------



## José Herring

Music01Bebe said:


> I don't know where else to say this but I feel like Natlie Holt's score to Kenobi isn't that great; Episode 3 for example didn't even have the Imperial March theme, only the same repetitive drum loop when Vader is being assembled as well as all his appearences in that ep, the least that could've been done is how Michael Giacchino arranged Imperial March for Rogue One (when vader meets Krennick for example)
> 
> Other than that most of the tracks from the rest of the episodes sound mediocore, espcially the percussion parts.
> 
> I think she's attempting to do what Ludwig did for Mandalorian, but what worked there doesn't even work here, the way she writes it. Her score for Loki though was amazing, I don't know what happened here.


Yes, I don't know what happened. Her Loki score showed a lot of imagination and this one has little to no imagination. I was kind of disappointed because I was looking forward to her contribution. I feel like she was told okay you do the hip stuff and we'll get the old dudes to write the orchestral stuff. Which can happen when you have too many composers on a show with no clear leading voice.

But I still have 3 episodes to watch.


----------



## Oakran

AlbertSmithers said:


> I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on Boba Fett. Do you think Book of Boba Fett is better than Kenobi? I recently watched Boba Fett and felt like it had some cool world building aspects, and I was really into the characters, and although the ending was definitely rushed, I enjoyed it more than Kenobi (so far at least).


Well so far I've only managed to watch the first episode of Bobba and didn't like it. A friend showed me the infamous scooter chase scene and well... that was quite something.
I was expecting something of the caliber of The Mandalorian but clearly that was not on par.
I think from what I've seen in Bobba yes the world building was cool (I love Tatooine) but the screenplay was not super interesting imo. I think that's something recurrent with a lot of modern production. There's a lot of attention put into creating an extremely visually engaging world, filled with cool looking characters but that's it. I they only put 10% of that visual creativity and attention to detail in the score that'd be incredible!


Chris Schmidt said:


> It's not just Disney, is the thing though.
> 
> Pretty much all of Hollywood has been afraid of that sound and waging a war on quality for the last 15 years.
> 
> The only place you hear real orchestral music in films/TV anymore is in children's stuff like How To Train Your Dragon.
> 
> Which I suspect reflects this bizarre trend of trying to make child's stuff appeal to adults, and things that should be for adults aimed at much younger audiences.
> 
> The Superhero genre seems to be where it started.


You're right, it's definitely a trend that started maybe two decades ago. But I though Disney would keep a kind of old school approach to the Star Wars franchise (the orchestral score from the last trilogy, the old school art direction, some practical vfx, etc).

Dragon's awesome I think the second one is just a fantastic score that is way beyond what's the norm for film scoring nowadays. It's too bad that this kind of stuff mostly only happens in animation.

Generally speaking, one thing that is obvious is how much "trailer" approach to music and video editing as influenced the way productions are made today. It's striking.


MA-Simon said:


> Well... The 70s are long, long past. What is it, 50 years? I think it is perfectly fine to explore new things.


Yes it's fine to explore new things I don't have any complaint about it. The problem is that most modern productions sound always the same, in an uninspired and depressed way (maybe it's only a reflection of our modern western societies, who knows !).
I'm sure it's something that has been said over and over, but I wouldn't listen to most modern scores on their own or go listen to a concert featuring them. Though I understand that's just my own taste and some people may like it.


Music01Bebe said:


> Most of the music took me out of the picture whilst watching. The Mandalorian was a new creation with a character and characters unseen before and Ludwig created the sonic pallete perfectly, blending classical and unique sound creations to fit the emotional themes, locations etc. It felt respectful to Star Wars.
> 
> Kenobi is a _sequel _to the prequels and music wise I really thought it would follow the path that John Williams set upon.


Totally ! I loved so much the first season and the beginning of season 2. It felt like watching something made by people who genuinely loved Star Wars and wanted to blow us away. And oh boy that was good. 
The blending of classical and modern sound was perfectly done and I wish Goransson scored Obi-Wan Kenobi.


----------



## AlexRuger

MA-Simon said:


> Well... The 70s are long, long past. What is it, 50 years? I think it is perfectly fine to explore new things.


"New" is fine. "Bad" is not.


----------



## jbuhler

So far I like the show. I like the music. This thread is sad.


----------



## Alex Fraser

NoamL said:


> which just means that people who like the old Star Wars & the magic of movie theaters and big symphonic scores, can finally let it go and move on with our lives.


NEVER! 
(I may be old school, but I still think SW benefits from these big, sweeping symphonic scores.)

I watched the program before listening to the JW theme...and honestly could pick it out a mile off. 
Expressed this to my daughter who rolled her eyes..


----------



## Alex Fraser

AlexRuger said:


> Not using the Imperial March (which by the end of RotJ was clearly Vader's theme) in episode 3 was just madness. I don't know why Disney is so dead set on getting away from the material John Williams established, but this is just ridiculous.
> 
> The surest way to make your Star Wars thing feel like a fan film (amateur-ish filmmaking aside) is to not use these characters' themes. Darth Vader on screen without even a hint of his theme is like...I don't know, Bruce Wayne but with parents? It's a central, inarguable* part of his character.


I understand where you're coming from here.

Considering the program makers look to reference "OG Star Wars" in every which way possible (film grain, in-camera effects, every little easter egg) it seems strange not to at least reference some of the famous motifs in the score.

And THAT scene in EP3 really did need something else.*

_(*Remembering I'm a guy of a certain age who is annoyingly purist and blinkered about this sort of thing..)_


----------



## NoamL

I don't watch this show but I heard from a friend there are some parts of ep3 that sound like midi mockups. Your thoughts? I'm wondering how that could make it into the final cut of a Disney+ show. Did LA go back into lockdowns or something???


----------



## aaronventure

NoamL said:


> I don't watch this show but I heard from a friend there are some parts of ep3 that sound like midi mockups. Your thoughts? I'm wondering how that could make it into the final cut of a Disney+ show. Did LA go back into lockdowns or something???


Some of the footage looks like a mockup as well. Almost fan film-level.

Some of the scenes are more comical than the prequels. I can't believe that all the people whose hands a Star Wars production goes through saw this and said "Yeah, this is fine". So I imagine it has to be intentional?


----------



## Oakran

NoamL said:


> I don't watch this show but I heard from a friend there are some parts of ep3 that sound like midi mockups. Your thoughts? I'm wondering how that could make it into the final cut of a Disney+ show. Did LA go back into lockdowns or something???


Yeah some scenes of episode 3 are embarrassing... For the music it's almost as if they had no time to record it properly or maybe it's just part of the art direction who knows.
If you had not already, I recommend reading this article about Natalie's approach to the score, it's quite interesting to read. She seems to be genuinely passionate about the SW franchise and the work of Williams. I definitely can't hear that in her score though. I really wish the end result was different...


----------



## José Herring

Oakran said:


> Well so far I've only managed to watch the first episode of Bobba and didn't like it. A friend showed me the infamous scooter chase scene and well... that was quite something.
> I was expecting something of the caliber of The Mandalorian but clearly that was not on par.


Keep watching. Mando pays Bobba a visit and Bobba is reduced to making cameo appearances on his own show.


----------



## mopsiflopsi

With Disney's Star Wars in general, the leash afforded to creatives is too short, the expectations too high, the fan scrutiny too intense, and the frequency of content just too much. At this point my hope is they'll get over with milking every drop of blood from the franchise and shelf it for a decade or two before remembering its existence again.

As for the Obi Wan theme, to me it sounded like something that many a HZ protege could have written. No offense to any of them but I couldn't latch on to any reason why it had to be JW writing this other than name recognition.


----------



## AlexRuger

This edit is pretty rough, but the broad point it's making is still made: 

Rather than a long (and clunky, despite how well it was edited) intro replaying the prequels, and a long (and clunky, despite how cool it was) Vader suit-up scene, they could have used the prequel replays as character flashbacks. Intercutting them with Vader's suit-up, as well as Obi-Wan grappling with the truth he just learned, is _so _effective, I love it. 

Add in some real damn Star Wars themes, and baby, you've got yourself a stew.

It's almost as if film is a visual medium!

This amateur YouTube clip moved me more than all the entire actual show's episodes thus far _combined._


----------



## Music01Bebe

AlexRuger said:


> It's almost as if film is a visual medium!
> 
> This amateur YouTube clip moved me more than all the entire actual show's episodes thus far _combined._


And this as well, makes you wonder how much better this Kenobi show can be with an improved score


----------



## jbuhler

Music01Bebe said:


> And this as well, makes you wonder how much better this Kenobi show can be with an improved score



This is really not good, and doesn't suit the show, however much it might indulge fan service. For one thing, Vader in the show is not yet that Vader. He's still basically angry Anakin in Vader's suit. But the Imperial March also reverses the dynamics of the scene and makes it about Vader, when it's far more about Reva. In any case, these decisions are almost certainly not the composer's to make. The most obvious solution in the world would have been to score Vader with the Imperial March. That decision was almost certainly made above the composer's head, maybe above the showrunner's head.

This thread is really just so sad.


----------



## AlexRuger

jbuhler said:


> This is really not good, and doesn't suit the show, however much it might indulge fan service. For one thing, Vader in the show is not yet that Vader. He's still basically angry Anakin in Vader's suit. But the Imperial March also reverses the dynamics of the scene and makes it about Vader, when it's far more about Reva. In any case, these decisions are almost certainly not the composer's to make. The most obvious solution in the world would have been to score Vader with the Imperial March. That decision was almost certainly made above the composer's head, maybe above the showrunner's head.
> 
> This thread is really just so sad.


I hope you realize that we all understand that these decisions almost certainly weren't Natalie Holt's. She's clearly an incredible composer; her score for Loki is easily one of my favorites of the decade thus far. Anyone blaming her -- or worse, going after her and hassling her -- is most certainly a fucking moron. It's pretty clear that the majority of folks worth having a discussion with are upset with Disney/Lucasfilm leadership.

And sure, we can talk all day about whether or not the Imperial March should be used in this or that scene. I actually agree with you that the linked video is a bad place to use it, at least in the way that it was used. That said, yes, a lot of people, myself included, think that not using Vader's theme -- even _once -- _is indeed a bad move. Ditto for Leia's. Ditto for the Force theme. There is nothing sad about thinking that. What's _sad_ is Disney purposefully killing some of the greatest, most powerful, potent themes ever written, for...no clear reason? It's baffling.


----------



## RonOrchComp

Music01Bebe said:


> And this as well, makes you wonder how much better this Kenobi show can be with an improved score



This is SOOO much better.... and as I alluded to in the other thread, THIS is what Mandalrian needs. Not exactly, but similar.

The music is too loud, and that might cause some people to say that it doesn't fit, but you have to interpolate here.



AlexRuger said:


> I hope you realize that we all understand that these decisions almost certainly weren't Natalie Holt's.



Maybe, maybe not. With a tight deadline, the show runner/producers might not have the luxury of requesting too many re-writes.


----------



## patrick76

I like the theme. It makes sense for the series. 

I strongly disagree with the opinion that the music, in this case the theme, must be “hummable” in order to be considered good. A very narrow minded view that spits on some of the masterpieces of this, or any era. Also disagree with the need for runs or the “serious use of winds” in the theme…. Lol. But, to each their own.


----------



## jbuhler

AlexRuger said:


> I hope you realize that we all understand that these decisions almost certainly weren't Natalie Holt's. She's clearly an incredible composer; her score for Loki is easily one of my favorites of the decade thus far. Anyone blaming her -- or worse, going after her and hassling her -- is most certainly a fucking moron. It's pretty clear that the majority of folks worth having a discussion with are upset with Disney/Lucasfilm leadership.
> 
> And sure, we can talk all day about whether or not the Imperial March should be used in this or that scene. I actually agree with you that the linked video is a bad place to use it, at least in the way that it was used. That said, yes, a lot of people, myself included, think that not using Vader's theme -- even _once -- _is indeed a bad move. Ditto for Leia's. Ditto for the Force theme. There is nothing sad about thinking that. What's _sad_ is Disney purposefully killing some of the greatest, most powerful, potent themes ever written, for...no clear reason? It's baffling.


Yes, because a love theme is the best way to score a ten-year old. I mean, maybe let her at least grow into it, if that’s even the best way to represent her, that is, through the admiring eyes of Luke. And for Vader beyond the scenes he’s appeared in not really warranting it yet and throwing off the scenes’ focus if it was used, I don’t think he’s earned the Imperial March yet as a character, and it’s hard to stay even moderately consistent with the musical world of A New Hope if you insist on imprinting Vader with it now. (I also won’t be surprised if he’s scored with it by the end of the series, but it will likely only be once, unless someone in the executive suite at Disney intervenes and demands more of it, because I can almost guarantee this decision was debated up and down the corporate chain.) Obiwan similarly starts the series a broken man, lost to the force. Since this is his story it’s not surprising the force theme has not yet appeared. Indeed it would be quite wrong for it to have appeared yet. Obiwan has still to reclaim his faith, and so also come back to his identity. Here I fully expect the force theme to show up once Obiwan has returned to the force, and the appearance of the force theme will ratify his return. 

In any case this is television and so you can’t really judge it as it has so far been judged here until it has run the course. What’s sad is the closed-minded certainty of knowing, just knowing what’s right or wrong for the series, the rigid commitment to the obvious solution, the inability to entertain difference and the dynamics of becoming that allow for the inkling of real transformation. Let’s see if the series can stick the landing and make Obiwan’s return to the force feel dramatically and musically consequential. That—not obvious thematic callbacks that do little beyond confirming what we already know—should be the measure of the series and its music. 

I’m by means certain they will stick the landing. But 4 shows into a 6 episode season, they are still in a position that they can do so and feel like it matters. I have also enjoyed the show so far. I like Reva as a character, and I’m delighted we’ve spent as much time with her. I worry I will be upset by the fate the show has written for her. I like watching Obiwan emerge from his shell shock. I like that Vader is still very much angry Anakin under his suit and so also temperamentally closer to Kylo Ren than the Vader of the original trilogy. Neither Obiwan nor Vader are yet who we know they will become, but the line to those future selves is plausible.


----------



## AdamKmusic

The soundtrack is incredibly dull for the most part. Even, unfortunately, the main theme is nothing special.

I did really like the piece at the end of episode 4 though!


----------



## AlexRuger

jbuhler said:


> Yes, because a love theme is the best way to score a ten-year old. I mean, maybe let her at least grow into it, if that’s even the best way to represent her, that is, through the admiring eyes of Luke. And for Vader beyond the scenes he’s appeared in not really warranting it yet and throwing off the scenes’ focus if it was used, I don’t think he’s earned the Imperial March yet as a character, and it’s hard to stay even moderately consistent with the musical world of A New Hope if you insist on imprinting Vader with it now. (I also won’t be surprised if he’s scored with it by the end of the series, but it will likely only be once, unless someone in the executive suite at Disney intervenes and demands more of it, because I can almost guarantee this decision was debated up and down the corporate chain.) Obiwan similarly starts the series a broken man, lost to the force. Since this is his story it’s not surprising the force theme has not yet appeared. Indeed it would be quite wrong for it to have appeared yet. Obiwan has still to reclaim his faith, and so also come back to his identity. Here I fully expect the force theme to show up once Obiwan has returned to the force, and the appearance of the force theme will ratify his return.
> 
> In any case this is television and so you can’t really judge it as it has so far been judged here until it has run the course. What’s sad is the closed-minded certainty of knowing, just knowing what’s right or wrong for the series, the rigid commitment to the obvious solution, the inability to entertain difference and the dynamics of becoming that allow for the inkling of real transformation. Let’s see if the series can stick the landing and make Obiwan’s return to the force feel dramatically and musically consequential. That—not obvious thematic callbacks that do little beyond confirming what we already know—should be the measure of the series and its music.
> 
> I’m by means certain they will stick the landing. But 4 shows into a 6 episode season, they are still in a position that they can do so and feel like it matters. I have also enjoyed the show so far. I like Reva as a character, and I’m delighted we’ve spent as much time with her. I worry I will be upset by the fate the show has written for her. I like watching Obiwan emerge from his shell shock. I like that Vader is still very much angry Anakin under his suit and so also temperamentally closer to Kylo Ren than the Vader of the original trilogy. Neither Obiwan nor Vader are yet who we know they will become, but the line to those future selves is plausible.


There are so many things that I fundamentally disagree with you on that honestly I don't even care to put in the time to discuss it, because no one's gonna change anyone's time here.

All I really care to respond to here is that Leia's theme and Han & Leia's theme are two different things. The latter is a love theme, the former isn't. You're clearly thinking of the latter, I'm talking about the former.

Her theme plays, curiously, when Obi-Wan dies in A New Hope (right after a short instance of the Force theme...which, as I've stated elsewhere, is IMO clearly supposed to be Obi Wan's theme in that film). I've always thought that was so weird! Leia, of all people -- her theme just like straight crying over the Storm Troopers firing. It's played and orchestrated so damn emotionally, and yet it's Luke who's screaming and crying. So weird.

These show-runners had a chance to make that make sense, and feel _oooooh_ so powerful. But nope!


----------



## jbuhler

AlexRuger said:


> There are so many things that I fundamentally disagree with you on that honestly I don't even care to put in the time to discuss it, because no one's gonna change anyone's time here.
> 
> All I really care to respond to here is that Leia's theme and Han & Leia's theme are two different things. The latter is a love theme, the former isn't. You're clearly thinking of the latter, I'm talking about the former.
> 
> Her theme plays, curiously, when Obi-Wan dies in A New Hope (right after a short instance of the Force theme...which, as I've stated elsewhere, is IMO clearly supposed to be Obi Wan's theme in that film). I've always thought that was so weird! Leia, of all people -- her theme just like straight crying over the Storm Troopers firing. It's played and orchestrated so damn emotionally, and yet it's Luke who's screaming and crying. So weird.
> 
> These show-runners had a chance to make that make sense, and feel _oooooh_ so powerful. But nope!


We could, I suppose, look up what Williams said about Leia’s theme.



> When describing his theme for Leia, Williams said, ‘The princess theme is very romantic. The first time Luke sees her, he says how beautiful she is. It really is a fairy-tale princess melody.’ He even admitted when accepting the 44th AFI Life Achievement Award that he wrote the concert version of ‘Leia’s Theme’ as, ‘a quite heated love theme, with a melody, and a development section, and a torrid climax, thinking that Luke and Leia were lovers.’



(https://musicofstarwars.wordpress.com/leitmotifs-luke-skywalker-and-princess-leia/)

So Leia’s theme according to the man himself was destined to be the love theme for Luke and Leia in ANH. That’s indeed how it’s presented in ANH, framed by Luke’s interest in her image. This is how I understood it as a 13 year old watching SW for the first time in fall 1977. I mean, if you don’t want to accept that the theme marks Leia as a romantic object and you can’t hear that element in it I don’t know what to say. 

Then of course when the romance is redirected to Han and Leia, yes there’s a new love theme written, because the original one was written for the wrong couple. And that in turn freed the original theme for wider use. (The exotic element to the theme helped its transition.) But its characterization of the music remains dominated by Leia as romantic object. And applying it to young Leia, just no.

Of course you don’t agree with my take. And I’m not looking for agreement in any case but only openness not to bring judgment too soon. You seem unable to allow SW to become anything other than what you think it is. You can take solace in the fact that many on the thread agree with you, and that’s why this thread is so sad. It’s like hanging with a bunch of petulant Anakins.


----------



## marclawsonmusic

This is why I don't watch any of the new Star Wars stuff. Too much refactoring. 

Hell, I was disappointed in Ep1 years ago, but at least it was still Lucas. The new stuff is just not the same... and I guess it's not meant to be. Cool for some, but not for me.


----------



## R.G.

This isn't specifically music related, but _The Critical Drinker_ touches on some of the issues brought up in this thread, for anyone interested.


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## Music01Bebe

Hmm she says "we" (so it wasn't her decision), also since it's set before A New Hope they didn't want to use the recognised themes but only build towards them, but ROTS had them though...


----------



## Blakus

NoamL said:


> I don't watch this show but I heard from a friend there are some parts of ep3 that sound like midi mockups. Your thoughts? I'm wondering how that could make it into the final cut of a Disney+ show. Did LA go back into lockdowns or something???


It’s surprising how common this actually is.


----------



## MarcMahler89

Blakus said:


> It’s surprising how common this actually is.


As i watched all the episodes myself, id argue that anything besides the "Obi Wan Theme" isnt recorded live. I even believe to have recognized some libraries i use myself there. On some tracks i was wondering if a hybrid approach was used, but that might just be due to very good programming.

(not as good as YOURS, though =) - i always assumed that you have to do a star wars movie/trailer score way before you actually did one)


----------



## NoamL

Blakus said:


> It’s surprising how common this actually is.


More work for people who can do mockups!


----------



## Uiroo

NoamL said:


> More work for people who can do mockups!


Less work for people who can play real instruments?


----------



## Pier

Music01Bebe said:


> And this as well, makes you wonder how much better this Kenobi show can be with an improved score



Yeah the show would be better with JW's music but I think it's weak for other reasons. Mainly the direction and script.

I don't want to get into details. I'll wait until it ends to write about this to not spoil anyone.


----------



## signalpath




----------



## MarcMahler89

Pier said:


> I don't want to get into details. I'll wait until it ends to write about this to not spoil anyone.


Well, actually the script for the whole season got already leaked. Curiosity prevailed and i had a look into it. For how its going to end ...


Spoiler: SPOILER






Spoiler: ARE YOU REALLY SURE?






Spoiler: HAVE YOU CONSIDERED THE INEVITABLE CONSEQUENCES OF CLICKING ME?



Reva gets a small redemption arc and has the possibility to kill Luke, but doesnt. In turn, Vader (finally?) kills Reva after she lies to him about having killed Obi Wan


----------



## ed buller

I think the elephant in the room is that JW's music for star wars uses complex harmonic material that most in hollywood aren't familiar with. As Mark Richards fabulous course :



Action-Music Harmony 1-3 – Film Music Notes



And Dominci Sewell's YOUTUBE;



https://www.youtube.com/c/DominicSewellMusic



Clearly demonstrates this is next level shit.

I, like most here, find the show fantastic and the music very disappointing.

best

e


----------



## Celestial Aeon

I think it's a bid sad that in general the whole soundtrack scene has seemed to have moved towards less composed style, more ambient simplistic style in the past few decades. While there is nothing inherently wrong with ambient simplicity, I'd love to hear more full composed stuff especially from legends like JW. But maybe it's partially because of the nostalgia, I grew up in the 80s and the soundtracks of that era are the baseline against which I intuitively reflect all OST even these days. Old man yelling at clouds etc.


----------



## ed buller

Celestial Aeon said:


> I think it's a bid sad that in general the whole soundtrack scene has seemed to have moved towards less composed style, more ambient simplistic style in the past few decades. While there is nothing inherently wrong with ambient simplicity, I'd love to hear more full composed stuff especially from legends like JW. But maybe it's partially because of the nostalgia, I grew up in the 80s and the soundtracks of that era are the baseline against which I intuitively reflect all OST even these days. Old man yelling at clouds etc.


part of it is just the training I am afraid. JW came up through the studio system. His dad played drums in studio orchestras , he played piano on many films before becoming an orchestrator and then composer. There were no software instruments and ostinato loops. Just pencil and paper. To be fair mock ups and daily listening sessions are almost the norm now so it's very very hard for a composer to develop anything original before a room full of people get to piss in it to make it taste better. The sheer number of opinions involved in getting music for picture made is just astounding. JW has had the luxury of the "fait accompli" for a long time.

But i agree the modern score ( TV, Film, Game et al) seems to rely so heavily on drones and soundscapes, ostinatos and stabs, thunder drums and god knows what else that most of the music just blends together into a kinda hollywoodwhitenoise !....but yell at the clouds please......somebody might Listen

best

e


----------



## Uiroo

@ed buller : hollywoodwhitenoise might just be my new favorite word. 
My impression was that things look a bit brighter in the gaming world, although it uses the normal orchestra less.


----------



## Celestial Aeon

Game world is luckily better. Composers like Austin Wintory and Gareth Coker carry the torch well, as does Joris de Man and The Flight. Indie scene is also sort of anarchistic in a good way. Check out Banner Saga ost or Journey, or Ori and the Blind Forest or Horizon Zero Dawn. Good stuff.


----------



## Loerpert

Okay I had at least expected Battle of Heroes playing in episode 6.. 😔

Buttt we got Leia, Vaders' and the force theme though


----------



## Pier

SPOILERS AND RANT ALERT

SPOILERS AND RANT ALERT

SPOILERS AND RANT ALERT

SPOILERS AND RANT ALERT

Ok so I finished watching the show and was quite disappointed. It was a constant eye roll or facepalm for me.

The production was great for a TV show and I liked the overall plot. I also like some characters like the grand inquisitor played by Rupert Friend. I was actually impressed by the girl playing Leia and I generally hate child actors.

But in general everything was so bland or straight up bad. I think the direction and music were probably the worst offenders.

About the acting. I generally like Ewan McGregor but it felt like Obi Wan was half asleep most of the time... The third sister character was also quite forced (no pun intended).

So much stuff was so badly resolved. Like when they are in front of vehicle guard gate and they need to get around it. They could just walk 2 meters around it! Characters dying and then coming back again or characters instantaneously traveling across half the galaxy.

There were so many missed opportunities to add drama. Like when Vader moves that huge ship using the force. This could have been a BIG moment, like when Yoda pulls out the X-Wing from the swamp in Empire. And it happens in like 3 seconds! Zero emotional impact. Or when Vader and Obi Wan meet for the first time. This should have been an intense moment... but it was all so bland. It's like the direction was just trying to complete a todo checklist.

And the music... JFC where to begin. It wasn't even a pale imitation of JW, it was worse. They had all these wonderful themes by JW they could have used and there's barely a mention to that, a footnote. Even when they used the imperial march it felt so bland. In the final fight between Obi Wan and Vader it all felt wrong. The tempo was super slow... and this was the final big climax ffs! If they didn't know what music to put why didn't they just use the Duel of the Fates or any of the other JW themes? When Obi Wan is trapped under the rocks and finally uses the force why didn't they use THE force theme?

Argh... sorry.

RANT OVER


----------



## Ex Legatum

Pier said:


> SPOILERS AND RANT ALERT
> 
> SPOILERS AND RANT ALERT
> 
> SPOILERS AND RANT ALERT
> 
> SPOILERS AND RANT ALERT
> 
> Ok so I finished watching the show and was quite disappointed. It was a constant eye roll or facepalm for me.
> 
> The production was great for a TV show and I liked the overall plot. I also like some characters like the grand inquisitor played by Rupert Friend. I was actually impressed by the girl playing Leia and I generally hate child actors.
> 
> But in general everything was so bland or straight up bad. I think the direction and music were probably the worst offenders.
> 
> About the acting. I generally like Ewan McGregor but it felt like Obi Wan was half asleep most of the time... The third sister character was also quite forced (no pun intended).
> 
> So much stuff was so badly resolved. Like when they are in front of vehicle guard gate and they need to get around it. They could just walk 2 meters around it! Characters dying and then coming back again or characters instantaneously traveling across half the galaxy.
> 
> There were so many missed opportunities to add drama. Like when Vader moves that huge ship using the force. This could have been a BIG moment, like when Yoda pulls out the X-Wing from the swamp in Empire. And it happens in like 3 seconds! Zero emotional impact. Or when Vader and Obi Wan meet for the first time. This should have been an intense moment... but it was all so bland. It's like the direction was just trying to complete a todo checklist.
> 
> And the music... JFC where to begin. It wasn't even a pale imitation of JW, it was worse. They had all these wonderful themes by JW they could have used and there's barely a mention to that, a footnote. Even when they used the imperial march it felt so bland. In the final fight between Obi Wan and Vader it all felt wrong. The tempo was super slow... and this was the final big climax ffs! If they didn't know what music to put why didn't they just use the Duel of the Fates or any of the other JW themes? When Obi Wan is trapped under the rocks and finally uses the force why didn't they use THE force theme?
> 
> Argh... sorry.
> 
> RANT OVER


Just pure speculation, but I think the composer might not like star wars, or was not a childhood fan. We all scream for the obvious, such as the use of proper motifs in 'obvious' areas. For a _non-fan_, this natural pull & temptation to use such motifs are not natural, nor obvious.


----------



## Pier

Ex Legatum said:


> Just pure speculation, but I think the composer might not like star wars, or was not a childhood fan. We all scream for the obvious, such as the use of proper motifs in 'obvious' areas. For a _non-fan_, this natural pull & temptation to use such motifs are not natural, nor obvious.


Yeah... maybe even the director(s) was not a fan either.

Another theory of mine is that Disney is trying to get away from the Star Wars clichés and find a new formula for some reason. Maybe to not become so dependent on particular individuals like JW. I don't know but I think they are failing more often than not.

In general I think Marvel is delivering much better results than Star Wars. I don't know what will happen when Kevin Feige stops steering that boat.


----------



## Uiroo

Pier said:


> Another theory of mine is that Disney is trying to get away from the Star Wars clichés and find a new formula for some reason. Maybe to not become so dependent on particular individuals like JW. I don't know but I think they are failing more often than not.


That's my feeling as well, although I don't think it makes much sense. They paid good money to be able to use that stuff, and the people seem to want it. And there are many composers who can do a decent blend between modern film music and John Williams. I think they could totally pull it off if they wanted to, without having any sort of dependence on anything. 
I cannot understand why they're doing what they're doing, but it sure makes me throw less money at them.


----------



## Oakran

Music wise: Disney just hire Gordy Haab please ! His work on Battlefront II is phenomenal.


----------



## daan1412

Disappointed by the show, unfortunately. As a fan of the prequels (all 3 trilogies in fact), I really wanted to love this, but I just feel the execution and story weren't satisfying. Some parts - including lightsaber fights - were frighteningly close to fan film level. I think this should have been a movie with better production and a better script. There was potential, for sure.

As for the score, I dig the main theme. I mean - at this point every new SW cue by John Williams is a treasure. And it's simply good IMO. Whenever it pops up in the show, it stands out. The rest of the music is the type of generic modern score that doesn't resonate with me whatsoever. I'm used to much more than that in Star Wars.


----------



## HarmonKard

Ex Legatum said:


> Ofcourse someone will make a dubstep version sooner or later.. Hopefully later





Ex Legatum said:


> Ofcourse someone will make a dubstep version sooner or later.. Hopefully later


Hopefully MUCH later!


----------



## HarmonKard

I like it. Its not his best work, but it still is really good.

Tell me if I am off base here.

To me, it's missing something. Listen to :39 and 3:18 - to me, it's missing movement. Like what he did in Rey's theme:





Listen at 1:40 - hear that movement? This is what I feel OBWK is lacking. Yes, it's not the same music, I get that. But still, I think there should be some of that Williams-esque movement.

Anyone else feel the same?


----------



## José Herring

In the original Trilogy John Williams music made Star Wars, "Star Wars". I honestly always thought the movies were fun and good but as far as filmmaking goes, kind of lack luster. But his music just pushed the story, acting, way up to make the film iconic along with his scores. Any lesser score the films would have bombed and Lucas himself as alluded to such if I recall. 

Kenobi proves that SW has matured. Friggin' show imo was excellent. I honestly don't care what anybody says. The only fault is they only had 6 episodes and there was a lot more story to tell. Kenobi proved again that whatever the challenge he rises to the occasion and for me it was uplifting as the show went from complete hopelessness to banging on the door of "a new hope".

The music, didn't play much of a roll in the Kenobi story and proof to me that Star Wars has evolved beyond the ability of one person to make it exciting.

The challenge musically was that they couldn't use the main themes until the characters evolved enough which Darth eventually did. The other challenge is that one main theme that can encompase the begining of Obi-Wan Kenobi to where he ended up was impossible. Polar opposites. 
I think john williams could have done it though if he had the score to himself. He took the Kylo Ren theme from Villain to Hero. The problem of course is I doubt he wanted to. I'm sure it took all he could just to get out of bed to write the main theme. nearly 50 years of Star Wars. I'm sure he's had it and also at 90 with his recent announcement, he's done all that he's wanted to do in the film industry.


----------



## tonio_

José Herring said:


> In the original Trilogy John Williams music made Star Wars, "Star Wars". I honestly always thought the movies were fun and good but as far as filmmaking goes, kind of lack luster. But his music just pushed the story, acting, way up to make the film iconic along with his scores. Any lesser score the films would have bombed and Lucas himself as alluded to such if I recall.
> 
> Kenobi proves that SW has matured. Friggin' show imo was excellent. I honestly don't care what anybody says. The only fault is they only had 6 episodes and there was a lot more story to tell. Kenobi proved again that whatever the challenge he rises to the occasion and for me it was uplifting as the show went from complete hopelessness to banging on the door of "a new hope".
> 
> The music, didn't play much of a roll in the Kenobi story and proof to me that Star Wars has evolved beyond the ability of one person to make it exciting.
> 
> The challenge musically was that they couldn't use the main themes until the characters evolved enough which Darth eventually did. The other challenge is that one main theme that can encompase the begining of Obi-Wan Kenobi to where he ended up was impossible. Polar opposites.
> I think john williams could have done it though if he had the score to himself. He took the Kylo Ren theme from Villain to Hero. The problem of course is I doubt he wanted to. I'm sure it took all he could just to get out of bed to write the main theme. nearly 50 years of Star Wars. I'm sure he's had it and also at 90 with his recent announcement, he's done all that he's wanted to do in the film industry.


I believe he actually asked Kathleen Kennedy or Deborah Chow to write the theme himself, unless I misunderstood what you meant by "took all he could to get out of bed to write the main theme", maybe you were talking about his age? I interpreted it as in like: he was sick of it, so correct me if I'm wrong!

I agree with Star Wars evolving beyond just one person, it already has actually with Ludwig Goransson and Joseph Shirley, but in this particular case, we are talking about characters that have been around since the very first film and about a period in Star Wars where the prequels tie into A New Hope. These aren't new characters and we know everything that happened before and after this show.

I believe that in this case, subtle hints of the Imperial March, Anakin's Theme and the Force Theme were pretty much mandatory throughout the series. Vader going all murderous on innocent civilians would have been a great moment for a rendition of Anakin's Dark Deeds, since it shows that Vader still has a connection to his past. Reva's flashbacks would have greatly benefitted from the Order 66 themes, I mean, it was happening at EXACTLY the same time. A twisted version of Battle of the Heroes theme was begging to be played during the final duel, since obviously Anakin isn't exactly Anakin, but Vader isn't exactly Vader either at that point. And on top of that, there was still plenty of room for new material, with Inquisitors, the Path and all that. But even then, the sound just wasn't Star Wars-y, it was closer to the usual modern action film/TV show. Needs more Westerns and more Kurosawa.

Instead we got a somewhat random rendition of the Hyperdrive cue in ep6, which I guess makes some sense, since in Empire Strikes Back Leia was on the Falcon also fleeing Vader. We did at least get Leia's theme in a beautiful moment. I love what Natalie Holt has done with Loki, but I think she really missed the mark in Kenobi. On the other hand, I found Ludwig Goransson's score for Mando to be exceptionally great, it really captured the spirit of Star Wars in a very different light to JW, but that spirit was still there. Very much unlike Kenobi, which as far as I'm concerned, didn't sound like Star Wars and wasn't connected to the characters.

In fact, my group of non-musician friends with whom I watched the series every week kept bringing up how much they were unimpacted by the music, going as far as to say that it sounded weak. Neither of them can tell a trumpet from a cello (or identify a trumpet for that matter), but they both exclaimed that the music was much better in ep6 and that it changed everything for them. My personal final judgement is reserved until I hear the OST out of context, to see if it takes me into that universe or not.

But if we're talking strictly about the theme, I personally really adore the melody. The orchestration isn't really what I'd expect from a JW Star Wars piece and I admittedly was slightly surprised by it. I think that it encompasses the whole journey pretty well already, its reflective, conflicted, hopeless and hopeful at the same time, although it would have probably benefitted from some more obvious reharmonizations in the show itself on NH's part.

Speaking of the show itself, I feel that it was strangely written, the overall story was good, but the paths that it took to get somewhere were illogical more often than not. And then there's that whole episode which was a rip off Jedi Fallen Order entirely (speaking of JFO, that game had an amazing soundtrack). But since Disney took over, most of the writing was generally fairly bad, aside from Mando, Rebels and Rogue One. Which is the "opposite" problem from what Lucas had: great stories, not so great directing (not at all really).

Overall, I'd say I enjoyed it because it was Star Wars, because Ewan and Hayden were there and because the last episode was really really really amazing (possibly one of the best SW experiences I've had since I were a kid).

Just my two cents


----------



## Baronvonheadless

It’s good for sure but feels way marvel for Williams


----------



## Music01Bebe

Pier said:


> SPOILERS AND RANT ALERT



what do you think about this


----------



## DANIELE

Music01Bebe said:


> what do you think about this



A lot lot lot lot lot lot better!!


----------



## quickbrownf0x

Pier said:


> The tempo was super slow... and this was the final big climax ffs!


Yeah, I agree - didn't get that either. But I think it's a combination of what @ed buller and @HarmonKard and others mentioned; this 'modern' style of writing and the use of technology to maybe make up for a bit of a lack of skill in complex harmony (I'm certainly guilty of that, for sure).

Also (new) filmmakers, execs, etc. may've gotten used to this modern/hybrid sound and way of working, so in their mind they're thinking 'Okay, so the average film score sounds like anything done by Zimmer/RC, after around... '94. We want that modern sound, with maybe a hint of Williams here and there'. So then Natalie gets a note; "More cowbell, less busy.". And so that's exactly what she does.

Maybe it's that too? I don't know. 🤷‍♂️

But I'd love to see more movement too in future SW projects. Oh well, I think season 2 of Obi is already in the works, right?


----------



## daan1412

In a new interview for Screen Rant, Holt mentioned a lot about "not being sure if they get Williams' permission to use his themes". I was surprised to read that, I assumed it's up to Lucasfilm and Disney. Very interesting (if her words are accurate).


----------



## NoamL

Music01Bebe said:


> what do you think about this



makes it feel even more like a fan film. :\ or even, one of those slightly cringey "once every 3 hour" storytelling actor events at a theme park.

This franchise seems to have no idea what to do except recycle and re-arrange past story beats.

Disney was right to delete the Extended Universe, funny thing is less than a decade later they are completely out of ideas to do anything but their own equally tangled-up and universe-shrinking version of the EU with products like the Solo movie, the Boba Fett TV show and now Kenobi.


----------



## Kevperry777

For a show with much better Star Wars/Williams inspired music….see Rebels.


----------



## Kevperry777

Holt quote: “Natalie Holt: When I started up on this project, we weren't sure that we were going to be allowed to use the John Williams themes. Deborah [Chow] was saying to me, "I think we need to score the show as if we're not going to be able to use them." She was like, "I don't want to find out that we can't, so let's make it work without. Let's do our own thing."


----------



## Pier

Music01Bebe said:


> what do you think about this



Of course the music doesn't sync perfectly... but it feels so much better.

And not only because of the recognizable JW themes. The tempo makes more sense, the instrumentation, the choir, the harmonies, etc.



quickbrownf0x said:


> But I think it's a combination of what @ed buller and @HarmonKard and others mentioned; this 'modern' style of writing and the use of technology to maybe make up for a bit of a lack of skill in complex harmony (I'm certainly guilty of that, for sure).


You'd think with all the money they spent on this, Disney could have hired someone with skills better suited for this type of project.

There's plenty of people that could have done it, even without resorting to the JW themes.


These are from video games:


----------



## SupremeFist

I didn't much like the theme when I first heard it, but having watched the series I now love it to bits (the theme, not the series).


----------



## ed buller

Pier said:


> Of course the music doesn't sync perfectly... but it feels so much better.
> 
> And not only because of the recognizable JW themes. The tempo makes more sense, the instrumentation, the choir, the harmonies, etc.
> 
> 
> You'd think with all the money they spent on this, Disney could have hired someone with skills better suited for this type of project.
> 
> There's plenty of people that could have done it, even without resorting to the JW themes.
> 
> 
> These are from video games:



Gordy Haab has really earned his spot. Can't understand why he hasn't got the call !

best

e


----------



## HarmonKard

Kevperry777 said:


> Holt quote: “Natalie Holt: When I started up on this project, we weren't sure that we were going to be allowed to use the John Williams themes. Deborah [Chow] was saying to me, "I think we need to score the show as if we're not going to be able to use them." She was like, "I don't want to find out that we can't, so let's make it work without. Let's do our own thing."


That right there suggests that Williams owns the music. I don't see how that's the case. Especially the music/themes from the first three films.


----------



## Kevperry777

SupremeFist said:


> I didn't much like the theme when I first heard it, but having watched the series I now love it to bits (the theme, not the series).





Kevperry777 said:


> For a show with much better Star Wars/Williams inspired music….see Rebels.





HarmonKard said:


> That right there suggests that Williams owns the music. I don't see how that's the case. Especially the music/themes from the first three films.


Yep. Actually check out this snippet from Holt:

“John Williams watched the whole show, and he granted permission for his themes to be used in episode six and in certain places, and where the Yoda theme would go, and then that set the tentpoles for me. Like, "Okay, we can't use the themes until this point, so we need to be leading to them.

Episode six was the handover episode, so that was Bill Ross, John Williams... that episode was a collaboration of the three of us. It was very much overseen by everyone there, just kind of making sure that it was hitting the right points. And with something like that, it's like John and Bill Ross have got over 40 years of _Star Wars_ experience, so they know what _Star Wars_ is and should be.”


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## Architekton

Just went through the 1st season, loved it, hopefully they'll do the 2nd one as well. Now, the music - bland, bland and bland. Nothing happens, no themes, Star Wars deserves better. Only shinning moments are when JWs themes pop up now and then, everything else = forgettable.


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## quickbrownf0x

Pier said:


> Of course the music doesn't sync perfectly... but it feels so much better.
> 
> And not only because of the recognizable JW themes. The tempo makes more sense, the instrumentation, the choir, the harmonies, etc.
> 
> 
> You'd think with all the money they spent on this, Disney could have hired someone with skills better suited for this type of project.
> 
> There's plenty of people that could have done it, even without resorting to the JW themes.
> 
> 
> These are from video games:



Never heard these before - someone get Stephen and Gordy on the phone already! 😳🤷🏽‍♂️


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## Oakran

quickbrownf0x said:


> Never heard these before - someone get Stephen and Gordy on the phone already! 😳🤷🏽‍♂️


"Smugglers Run" from BFII is such an incredible piece of music. Gordy Haab is just on another level.

It's so refreshing to have someone that passionate about Star Wars and classical orchestration 
Can't wait to hear his future movie works when Hollywood realize people are actually desperately craving for this kind of soundtrack.


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## HarmonKard

Kevperry777 said:


> Yep. Actually check out this snippet from Holt:
> 
> “John Williams watched the whole show, and he granted permission for his themes to be used in episode six and in certain places, and where the Yoda theme would go, and then that set the tentpoles for me. Like, "Okay, we can't use the themes until this point, so we need to be leading to them.



Sorry, but I am not buying that. I just don't see how Williams owns the music, and not the studio. Remember - back then, Williams was in the process of becoming an all-time great composer, but he wasn't really there yet, and he didn't have that much clout. Some, sure, but enough to take ownership of the music from the studio? I don't see that.

This reminds me of... oh, who was it.... they worked on one of the 3 recent SW films as a recording engineer, or score mixer... they did an interview in which they said that John Williams doesn't use any orchestrators. See, this is why you can't just believe everything you read - even if it is from someone intimately involved in the project.

Could it be true? Sure. I am just not buying it.

Perhaps it wasn't legal permission he gave, but instead, his blessing? Things get lost in translation at times when humans speak. Especially yours truly


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## Robin Thompson

It's Holt's own words so it must mean _something_, but that does seem strange. People have been adapting William's Star Wars themes in various projects for decades. Seems out of character for him to be sniffy about it now.


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## bennyoschmann

HarmonKard said:


> This reminds me of... oh, who was it.... they worked on one of the 3 recent SW films as a recording engineer, or score mixer... they did an interview in which they said that John Williams doesn't use any orchestrators. See, this is why you can't just believe everything you read - even if it is from someone intimately involved in the project.


But it's true! John Williams hasn't used orchestrators for the last 10 years. Warhorse (2011) was the last project where his usual team of orchestrators (Conrad Pope & Eddie Karam) was involved. Since Lincoln (2012), Williams sends his sketches to JoAnn Kane music, where the scores and parts are getting prepared directly from his sketches.

That being said, orchestrating for Williams has always been more of a copyist job, as his sketches are 99,9% complete. There's barely anything new added by his orchestrators. He even conducts from his sketches and NOT from the full scores.

There's a great quote from Pat Hollenbeck, who did some additional orchestrations for "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade":

"When I got out there I heard these horror stories of orchestrators being handed a page with a title, a key signature and a number of bars and nothing else on it; so orchestrators have developed a mystique as, allegedly, 'the secret composers,' and in many cases it may be true - but not with John Williams. With him, orchestrating means taking his notes from the little green paper and putting them in the big yellow paper. But it was a tremendous learning experience."


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## HarmonKard

I see the convo has shifted a bit, which is fine, of course 


I am sorry, but I cant find the aforementioned quote. :/




bennyoschmann said:


> But it's true! John Williams hasn't used orchestrators for the last 10 years.


Well, he hasn't really done much since Lincoln, outside of SW. I see two features, one where an orchestrator is listed, and one where there is none. Doesn't mean there were none, BTW 

And there were definitley orchestrators on the recent/after 2011 SW films.

But the point here is not whether or not Williams uses them; it's that I don't see how it's possible he owns the music. I was just using that "orchestrator" quote to prove my point. Well, try anyway


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## MarcMahler89

What just came to my mind is that Kenobi was basically Game of Thrones final season with a major twist:
- The expectations were RIDICULOUSLY high and impossible to meet by anyones standards
- It started great, or at least somewhat promising
- It went downhill pretty fast, in the span of 1-2 episodes
- The writing was probably done by a preschool child supervised by disney, or in the case of GOT, HBO officials
- There were at least a few flashes of genius, though

The difference:
- GOTs ending was the worst part, whereas Kenobis final episode was probably the best (and to a certain extent even surpassed the movies it was based on , imho)


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## bennyoschmann

HarmonKard said:


> But the point here is not whether or not Williams uses them; it's that I don't see how it's possible he owns the music. I was just using that "orchestrator" quote to prove my point. Well, try anyway


I agree - I don't buy that, either. I worked on the 'Angry Birds Star Wars' franchise and they had no problems licensing Williams' original themes. I was allowed to use/adapt his themes as long as they appeared in the tracks that they've licensed.



HarmonKard said:


> Well, he hasn't really done much since Lincoln, outside of SW. I see two features, one where an orchestrator is listed, and one where there is none. Doesn't mean there were none, BTW
> 
> And there were definitley orchestrators on the recent/after 2011 SW films.


I see four features actually (Lincoln, The Book Thief, The BFG & The Post). But my point was that there seems to be a change of his working style happening around 2011/2012. Whereas he used to rely on (a team of) orchestrators for 40+ years, who copied his sketches into full scores, he now elimates that step completely and sends his sketches directly to the music preparation office. I find that pretty remarkable!
So maybe the quote you're referring to was meant in that way, that he doesn't use orchestrators anymore like he used to do before 2012? Anyway, as I mentioned before, it probably doesn't really matter a lot who's doing that job, because every single musical decision is made by Williams in his sketches already.


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## HarmonKard

bennyoschmann said:


> So maybe the quote you're referring to was meant in that way, that he doesn't use orchestrators anymore like he used to do before 2012?


That's possible, but it didn't sound that way at the time. Damn, I wish I could find that quote :/

Hey - guess what I just did? Sent an email to Gorfaine/Schwartz, asking about the ownership bit. I don't put the chances at getting a response as high, but if I do, I will report back.


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## Henning

Ok, this thorough review by John Broxton seems to me the perfect way to close this thread:
https://moviemusicuk.us/2022/07/01/obi-wan-kenobi-natalie-holt-william-ross-john-williams/


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## HarmonKard

So, that art. tells me that my initial impression was correct. It wasn't permission (even tho that's the word she used); it was blessing. As in, JW has so much clout, he would, if he felt the music was not worthy, go to KK, and demand that the music Holt wrote not be used, and then KK would oblige.


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## Music01Bebe

Henning said:


> Ok, this thorough review by John Broxton seems to me the perfect way to close this thread:
> https://moviemusicuk.us/2022/07/01/obi-wan-kenobi-natalie-holt-william-ross-john-williams/


sorry nope i'm afraid, what I am about to send defo is closing this thread now lmao, taken from https://www.slashfilm.com/915110/ob...n-scoring-the-shows-biggest-scenes-interview/


> _*Obi-Wan Kenobi Composer Natalie Holt has revealed that while she expected fans would want the epic John Williams style orchestra sounds in the show like in the movies, Deborah Chow the director and showrunner decided against that and wanted her to keep the soundtrack '' minimal and modern.''*_


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## ed buller

Music01Bebe said:


> sorry nope i'm afraid, what I am about to send defo is closing this thread now lmao, taken from https://www.slashfilm.com/915110/ob...n-scoring-the-shows-biggest-scenes-interview/


well at least it WAS a deliberate decision. A dreadful one...but deliberate

best

e


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## signalpath




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## Ex Legatum

signalpath said:


>



jarjar is behind it all


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