# How do you remove harshness of Orchestral Samples ?



## nuyo (Jun 30, 2020)

Sampled Instruments usually have a lot of high end.
Do you know any plugins that can take them away by doing some "magic".
Just applying an EQ or Filter will always sound like just applying an EQ or Filter. 

I heard of Soothe but haven't tried it. The Kramer Tape can also do this.


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## Rob Elliott (Jun 30, 2020)

For me on strings it is usually 3K-4K where the harshness peeks out too much. A dynamic eq there always improves that. Of course flavor to taste per library (and track/cue).


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## Henu (Jun 30, 2020)

Soothe is like Spider-Man. "With great power...", and so on. It is very good at times, but too much and oh boy everything sounds completely lifeless and neutered.


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## Living Fossil (Jun 30, 2020)

Dynamic EQs.
Sometimes automated EQs.

Keep in mind that sometimes the impression of "too much high end" may be brutally reinforced by other frequency areas.
(e.g. lately i had a case with Spitfire Symphonic Strings where an attenuation at 2.5 kHz completely changed the perception of the high mids between 6 – 7.5. kHz)


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## nuyo (Jun 30, 2020)

Henu said:


> Soothe is like Spider-Man. "With great power...", and so on. It is very good at times, but too much and oh boy everything sounds completely lifeless and neutered.



But that kinda goes for everything at anytime. ^^
I would use it on the Group Busses of every Section. Or maybe just on the whole Orchestra/Drum Bus.


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## Henu (Jun 30, 2020)

My first impression is "don't". Been there, done that, bypassed EVERY TIME after a while until I learned not to do it at all in the first place. 

Use it rather on single problematic instruments or let it only grab for the absolute worst and loudest a couple of resonances on the bus if you have to, but putting it on all busses doing stuff all the time makes everything sounding like a Roland synth from the late 90´s rather quickly. :D

You could also check out Gullfoss, which could work better on busses. I got it recently and it's actually really good on the 2-bus to tame the worst buildups a bit down. Haven't tried it on instrument busses but it could work also, if just used mildly.


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## Living Fossil (Jun 30, 2020)

nuyo said:


> Yes definitely. But the problem here is definitely the fact that samples run digitally. So not high frequencies get lost during the process. And they all just add up. I think its the missing analog part of working completely in the box.



Those frequencies that get lost in the analog domain aren't the ones responsible for the problems.
With analog equipment you can have even more harshness, if you happen to drive it in a way that enforces the high mids.
In fact, the actual harshness boom is quite a bit due to the fact that in our time analog characteristics are used in an exaggerated way. 


The nasty frequency buildups - usually in strings - are an immanent problem of sampling. When musicians play music they always do micro modifications according to the musical content.
When playing static notes for sampling, resonance buildups occur.
And (as mentioned) since today everybody is raving for "analog" sound and vintage sound, the samples are sometimes recorded and processed in an exaggerated way.

I never have any resonance buildups with Vienna Instruments stuff, because they focussed a pristine, neutral sound.


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## Rob Elliott (Jun 30, 2020)

another vote for Gullfoss (in VERY small amounts - at least for me).


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## Joël Dollié (Jun 30, 2020)

Cut 4db at 2.8k

This is actually pretty universal, trumpets, harsh violins, etc. anywhere from 2k to 4k.


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## ryans (Jun 30, 2020)

nuyo said:


> Do you know any plugins that can take them away by doing some "magic".
> Just applying an EQ or Filter will always sound like just applying an EQ or Filter.



A multiband compressor can be your friend..


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## Rasoul Morteza (Jun 30, 2020)

As others have pointed out, mid-side dynamic EQ's generally work well: Pro-Q, Gullfoss (no MS however), Soothe, or any other alternative.
Also too much vibrato can cause a similar effect.


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## shawnsingh (Jun 30, 2020)

My feeling is that many scenarios (of course not *all* scenarios) can be explained by the difference in spectral timbre of the different libraries or different instruments relative to each other. If you're using a library that has a very smooth, warm sound, then another library might seem to have particular high frequencies stick out compared to that. Different libraries will have different emphasis on different ranges of high frequencies. A strings library for example that has very cutting sharp spiccato ostinatos might sound very shrill and scratchy compared to the room/ambient mics of a brass library. And this problem also even happens due to different articulations. Too many times I've tried to EQ matching by testing legatos only to find that the short staccato/spiccato articulations sound blatantly different, one of them particularly scratchy and shrill.

So yeah, +1 to any of the solutions people posted - dynamic EQ, multiband compression, EQ dips at certain frequencies, etc. and +5 to finding out that all my EQ changes sound worse than turning off the EQ =)


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## Rasoul Morteza (Jun 30, 2020)

shawnsingh said:


> My feeling is that many scenarios (of course not *all* scenarios) can be explained by the difference in spectral timbre of the different libraries or different instruments relative to each other. If you're using a library that has a very smooth, warm sound, then another library might seem to have particular high frequencies stick out compared to that. Different libraries will have different emphasis on different ranges of high frequencies. A strings library for example that has very cutting sharp spiccato ostinatos might sound very shrill and scratchy compared to the room/ambient mics of a brass library. And this problem also even happens due to different articulations. Too many times I've tried to EQ matching by testing legatos only to find that the short staccato/spiccato articulations sound blatantly different, one of them particularly scratchy and shrill.
> 
> So yeah, +1 to any of the solutions people posted - dynamic EQ, multiband compression, EQ dips at certain frequencies, etc. and +5 to finding out that all my EQ changes sound worse than turning off the EQ =)


Interesting, I agree. Sometimes the contrast between the different elements in your track (different mic positions or recording halls across the libraries you're using altogether) makes your ears believe that your strings sound harsh.
As a side note, another way to reduce the so called harshness may be to use less of the spot and/or close mics and add in more of the ambient and tree mics. This is mainly because of how frequencies attenuate in energy.


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## Jay Panikkar (Jun 30, 2020)

@nuyo You didn't provide any context or examples.

There is no hard and fast "magical" method to treating samples. Or even audio for that matter. It depends entirely on the context of that particular piece of music. Mixing is about how the whole piece sounds, not how an instrument sounds in isolation.

"Harsh" sounds may not actually be harsh within the context of the entire piece, for example.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 30, 2020)

Jay Panikkar said:


> @nuyo You didn't provide any context or examples.
> 
> Mixing is about how the whole piece sounds, not how an instrument sounds in isolation.



Bingo.


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## nuyo (Jul 1, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Bingo.





Jay Panikkar said:


> @nuyo You didn't provide any context or examples.
> 
> There is no hard and fast "magical" method to treating samples. Or even audio for that matter. It depends entirely on the context of that particular piece of music. Mixing is about how the whole piece sounds, not how an instrument sounds in isolation.
> 
> "Harsh" sounds may not actually be harsh within the context of the entire piece, for example.



I didn’t because the Problem appears on every Arrangement or individual Section. If you compare a Strings only piece with a real recording, the sampled strings tend to have a lot more high energy.


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## Locks (Jul 2, 2020)

nuyo said:


> Sampled Instruments usually have a lot of high end.
> Do you know any plugins that can take them away by doing some "magic".
> Just applying an EQ or Filter will always sound like just applying an EQ or Filter.
> 
> I heard of Soothe but haven't tried it. The Kramer Tape can also do this.



I tend to just listen to my sections on loop for an hour or so until I get ear fatigue and can no longer hear the harshness. Works every time


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## nuyo (Jul 2, 2020)

Locks said:


> I tend to just listen to my sections on loop for an hour or so until I get ear fatigue and can no longer hear the harshness. Works every time



It's exactly the other way around for me. ^^
Maybe I just need to take more breaks.


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## patrick76 (Jul 2, 2020)

Besides everything already mentioned, I often like Decapitator set to the N setting and the tone knob adjusted to taste. Last night I also downloaded the Sonimus Burnley 73 eq and it seems to smooth out harshness a bit when using the saturation very lightly.


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## patrick76 (Jul 2, 2020)

Living Fossil said:


> In fact, the actual harshness boom is quite a bit due to the fact that in our time analog characteristics are used in an exaggerated way.


Can you elaborate a bit on this? What analog characteristics would you say are exaggerated that would cause harshness? Thx


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## Living Fossil (Jul 2, 2020)

patrick76 said:


> Can you elaborate a bit on this? What analog characteristics would you say are exaggerated that would cause harshness? Thx



It's quite simple: When you overdrive analog equipment, it saturates which means that additional overtones are created.
Originally, this equipment wasn't meant to be overdriven and in fact, in the beginning of the digital era the lack of saturation/distortion in digital equipment often was a selling point.
So, while originally saturation/distortion was an often unwanted byproduct, with the analog-revival boom, people went for these. 
Plugin emulations focus on saturation etc etc.
Now, when you have different stages of saturation in a row (preamps, pult, compression, EQ etc) , a huge harshness build up can occur.

P.s. while the harshness frequency range is traditionally between 2.5 and 3.5 kHz (as mentioned above) lot of modern libraries suffer from what i would call the "second harshness peak".
This one lives between 5 and 8 kHz (or 6 to 7.5 kHz) and while it initially makes a very convincing sound if a soundsource is played in isolation, it adds up in a way that is rather unpleasent when some of such sounds come together.

If you take a library with saturation and put some Decapitator on it, and then a tape emu and then a driven compressor, it will usually not sound very pleasent.


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## nuyo (Jul 2, 2020)

Living Fossil said:


> Now, when you have different stages of saturation in a row (preamps, pult, compression, EQ etc) , a huge harshness build up can occur.



So it would make sense to use clean sounding fx plugins and only add that analog vibe at the very end ? (if you want it of course)


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## Living Fossil (Jul 2, 2020)

nuyo said:


> So it would make sense to use clean sounding fx plugins and only add that analog vibe at the very end ? (if you want it of course)



Definitely, if you want less harshness.

However, as with all things, there are trends that are perceived as normal.
Modern trailer music and similar stuff often has amounts of high mids that are really hard to digest for my ears, however, still is extremely popular.


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## nuyo (Jul 2, 2020)

Living Fossil said:


> However, as with all things, there are trends that are perceived as normal.
> Modern trailer music and similar stuff often has amounts of high mids that are really hard to digest for my ears, however, still is extremely popular.



Yes but it sounds very clear and not like messed up harshness. 
At least from those people who really know what they are doing.


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## vitocorleone123 (Jul 2, 2020)

Multi and compression or eq can help, I suspect.

I went with DSEQ over Soothe (which I think is overpriced). Between that, Q3, Gulfoss, smart:comp, saturn2, etc. I can stamp out or exaggerate frequencies very easily.


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## mixtur (Jul 2, 2020)

I would highly recommend bx_refinement from Brainworx. Its essentiel a de-harsher and it works.


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## vitocorleone123 (Jul 2, 2020)

mixtur said:


> I would highly recommend bx_refinement from Brainworx. Its essentiel a de-harsher and it works.



If you already have it, or can pick it up for almost free - totally. It can work quick and easy if your trouble spots fall within the sweet spots of the plugin. Otherwise, there's much more sophisticated - and better- tools now. Like the ones I mentioned earlier.


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## patrick76 (Jul 3, 2020)

Living Fossil said:


> It's quite simple: When you overdrive analog equipment, it saturates which means that additional overtones are created.
> Originally, this equipment wasn't meant to be overdriven and in fact, in the beginning of the digital era the lack of saturation/distortion in digital equipment often was a selling point.
> So, while originally saturation/distortion was an often unwanted byproduct, with the analog-revival boom, people went for these.
> Plugin emulations focus on saturation etc etc.
> ...


Is there an example of a library that would demonstrate this effect? I haven't experienced what you are describing when adding Decapitator or tape emulations to the libraries that I own.


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## Living Fossil (Jul 3, 2020)

patrick76 said:


> Is there an example of a library that would demonstrate this effect? I haven't experienced what you are describing when adding Decapitator or tape emulations to the libraries that I own.



As long as you like what you get, everything is ok. 
Libraries to be cautious are generally speaking usually those that come with a processed sound, but i don't intend to drop specific names, since it doesn't mean that those are bad _per se_...


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## patrick76 (Jul 3, 2020)

Living Fossil said:


> As long as you like what you get, everything is ok.
> Libraries to be cautious are generally speaking usually those that come with a processed sound, but i don't intend to drop specific names, since it doesn't mean that those are bad _per se_...


I can appreciate your not wanting to drag any names through the mud. It seems that there really is a lot of harshness everywhere and I figure the more information I have on the subject, the more I can avoid it.


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## nuyo (Jul 4, 2020)

patrick76 said:


> I can appreciate your not wanting to drag any names through the mud. It seems that there really is a lot of harshness everywhere and I figure the more information I have on the subject, the more I can avoid it.



If you ask me, I would say that the stuff from Audio Imperia and Musical Sampling sounds kinda harsh.


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