# Dixieland "mockup" - What do you guys think?



## Composer007 (Jul 24, 2014)

Hey folks!

I just made a mockup of the popular song "When the Saints Go Marching In". I downloaded the midi file from the net, loaded Sample Modeling's instruments in Reaper, and added some Valhalla Room Verb to it. 

I recorded the dynamics *only* with TEC breath controller. Also edited the midi in some parts, but mainly the notes are from the midi not from me. 

Here is the MIDI file:

http://www.mediafire.com/download/idm4u ... saints.mid

Here is the mix completely DRY:

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/bs5fymb ... TS_DRY.mp3

Here is the final mix:

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/e1rmrhf ... _FINAL.mp3



Let me know how do u like it! Would this recording be tricking you if you weren't know it's virtual? If not any suggestions to make more realistic? Or would you EQ it a bit more? Would you add less or more reverb? I like it the way it is, but maybe people with more experience see it differently (I compose music for years now but im kinda beginner at mixing). Any suggestions is preferable! Thanks! :wink: 

Njoy! /\~O o=< o-[][]-o


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## Beat Kaufmann (Jul 24, 2014)

Hello Composer007
I don't want to disappoint you, but your wet mix doesn't support the more realistic instrument sounds as it could... sorry for this bad news.
Listening to your mix and comparing it with a the recording of real band will show very quick the main differences. 

I don't know whether you are new to the world of samples or not. 
Normally a midi-user pans instruments a bit from left to the right and increases a bit of CC091 (reverb) and that's it. This is OK with midi sounds...

If you want to simulate a real orchestra - or a dixi band as well - you also need to work with "in the front", "behind" "in the back". In other words: You need to work with depths as well. Depth doesn't automatically mean reverb, no it more means distance.
watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMAkPT9ggtg 

I recommend to listen to a real dixi recording. 
Try to make out the virtual stage of this band (by listening of course) 
Draw this stage and try to reach this virtual stage with different depths with your dixi instruments as well.

And bad news once more:
Creating good mixes with different dephts so that it sounds as real as possible is verry, verry, verry, verry, verry difficult - it's an art.

Nevertheless some quick SOS helpers
1) Choose another reverb (preset) 
Search a preset such as "ambiance" or "snare room"... 
this will fit better to this music style
2) Don't cut the high frequencies so much (it sounds too dark now)
3) The drums sounds very midi like always the same pattern... boring 
(listen to this http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/downloads/createc_sample_ballade.mp3 (Ballade) - you not only have to take real sounds you also need to play more real 

All the best, a lot of patient and success of course!
Beat


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## Composer007 (Jul 24, 2014)

Thanks for the comment man, but i placed the instruments with VSS (Virtual Sound Stage) so not sure what you are hearing. VSS definitely places the instruments in a space not just pan it. 

Also Im not new to samples, im more new to reverb plugins. I can tweak it a little bit. I will post my reverb settings maybe you will see what's the problem with the settings i used. 

The drums playing the same pattern because not me write or arranged this music its a midi track i downloaded as i sad. I not edited the drum part. 


I will upload a sample with another verb soon.


----
Here is VSS if you are not familiar with it: http://www.parallax-audio.com/


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## Composer007 (Jul 24, 2014)

Ok i made a few screenshots too:

VSS instrument placement: 

http://www.mediafire.com/view/26tm5tkeb ... CEMENT.jpg

Valhalla Room verb EARLY page:

http://www.mediafire.com/view/50hu6yh6n ... _EARLY.jpg

Valhalla Room verb LATE page:

http://www.mediafire.com/view/iihialc54 ... A_LATE.jpg


Maybe from these is more obvious for u what is the problem. (I'm uploading another version soon as i said anyway)


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## Composer007 (Jul 24, 2014)

OK, maybe this version is better? 

Ambience test: 

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/slimr1c ... LLROOM.mp3

It has more "highs" in it now.


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## Jdiggity1 (Jul 24, 2014)

Drums are the dead giveaway in this. Too mechanical. Not enough variation in dynamics.

Your initial 'wet' mix does give a sense of space, but it sounds like the band were recorded with one mic facing the opposite direction or something, due to the lack of higher frequencies. It didn't sound all that bad to me besides that. But I'm not an engineer.

You could fool some people, simply because the performances sounds real enough.

[/opinion]


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## Composer007 (Jul 24, 2014)

Yeah you're right Jdiggity! I focused so much on the solo instruments that i not payed enough attention for the drums (I only recorded the dynamics for trombone+clarinet+trumpet)

Also it was always hard to me to handle reverb properly, im quite new to using EQ (but not for using samples!). 

I will continue experimenting, I don't want to make this mix "too bright" though..

What do u think about the latest sample i uploded. Is it sounds better fo u?


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## lucor (Jul 24, 2014)

What's bugging me the most is the stereo width. Everything sounds extremely centered, almost like it's mono. I would experiment with panning some of the instruments to the left and right to give a nicer stereo image and make it easier to hear every instrument.
I really like the winds and brass though from a performance standpoint!


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## Composer007 (Jul 24, 2014)

LOL! >8o 

Dudes i checked again and realized that the VSS plugin not even worked! I inserted the plugins on the instrument tracks but not on the channels. :oops: 


Now i created another version...this time PANNED: 

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/wc34a3x ... PANNED.mp3


I don't know why believed it's already panned, it was a bit strange for me too lol. Nevermind i used the room as in the first "wet mix", but there is more highs now.

I will continue tweaking cause im not perfectly convinced still with the EQ/verb. But at least its panned now. :o


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## Hannes_F (Jul 24, 2014)

We have all been there (inactive plugins).

Dynamic-wise I found it quite good. Soundwise a bit boxy but I suppose you wanted it like that to 'make it more realistic'


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## Beat Kaufmann (Jul 24, 2014)

Hello again
Yes it's panned now. But something seems to be wrong with your whole reverb chain.
The correlation is always around 0 (stereo enhancer over done?) and as Hannes mentioned above it sounds a bit "boxy" instead of open and colorless.

... I've done the piece as well. The instruments are not treated and I always used the same samples. I also didn't change the volume of all the instruments so that's still not music of course. But I changed the tempo a bit, the drums and the solo guitar. 

Finally I used some audio tracks for showing the mix I mentioned above. 

That's my virtual stage:
___________________________________

.....Tuba......Banjo...Bass....Drums..................._Back_



Trumpet..........Clarinet.........Trombone............_ Front_
____________________________________

.......................Listener........................


I wanted to simulate a small live music venue.
So listen *to the back*: http://www.musik-produktion-createc.ch/Dixi_Back.mp3
and *to the front*: http://www.musik-produktion-createc.ch/Dixi_Front.mp3
and *to the whole mix*: http://www.musik-produktion-createc.ch/Dixi_Mixtotal.mp3

Once more: Sorry for the bad sound of the instruments but I have really nothing done with them.

Have fun

Beat


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## The Darris (Jul 24, 2014)

As a musician who grew up in the concert band life and performed with some small ensembles on this piece, I can tell you that the woodwinds (when featured) always required the brass to take a very low dynamic so they would stand out. I would suggest bringing down all the other instruments by at least a whole dynamic level, for starters, to really let the clarinet shine when it gets the melody. Also, this will give you a dramatic dynamic change and add a certain level of intensity for a build to the final section.

I can't help but feel that all the instruments are lagging behind the beat set by the percussion. Could be all my years of working with marching bands and drumlines set on precision timing as well as my lack of being fully immersed in the "dixieland style' though. However, I feel everyone is playing behind the drummer by a fraction of a 1/16 note. Are these rhythms quantized? If so, you might want to try pulling their midi data forward a few milliseconds to help compensate for that lag like feel and line up with the percussion. Whenever we played Saints, we tried to be on top of the beat to keep up the energy of the piece.

Other than that, the actual dynamic phrasing of the instruments is great and with the panning added in, this track is coming together nicely. I am not a mixing guru so getting that clarity in the sound isn't my forte but I can say that a lot of good mixing happens solely in the orchestration so maybe go back and ask yourself, how loud can a trumpet play at forte compared to a clarinet at forte, who would be louder? That in itself goes back to my first thought in my post.

Keep up the good work, I'm looking forward to how this track ends up. This arrangement takes me back a bit so thanks for sharing.

Cheers,

Chris


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## Beat Kaufmann (Jul 24, 2014)

Hi Darris
Thanks for all your musical inputs. All of them are correct and should be taken into account.
Nevertheless, I suggest only to treat mixing matters here in this thread.
When you listen to the first mix of Composer007 we already gain some steps forward.
Bringing in the whole theme "making music with samples" is a huge story for another hundred of threads...
But yes, I see it the same way: Getting closer to the reality with samples doesn't only touch mixing matters.

All the best
Beat


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## The Darris (Jul 24, 2014)

Beat Kaufmann @ Thu Jul 24 said:


> Hi Darris
> Thanks for all your musical inputs. All of them are correct and should be taken into account.
> Nevertheless, I suggest only to treat mixing matters here in this thread.
> When you listen to the first mix of Composer007 we already gain some steps forward.
> ...



I was more or less trying to evaluate his final question in the OP, "If not any suggestions to make more realistic?"

My comments derived from answering that question as I feel the OP was looking for feedback. Nobody mentioned them and no need for him to start another thread later on how to adjust his sequencing to get a more realistic sound. Likewise, I do feel that my comments contribute greatly to the mixing side of things re; Clarinet solo balancing between the brass. Anyway, take it or leave it, I felt it was constructive for the OP since nobody else mentioned it. Musicians helping musicians right? :D 

Best,

Chris


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## Composer007 (Jul 25, 2014)

Beat Kauffman:

I like your mock up very much, but you "cheated" a bit haha. Maybe i wasn't clear enough, but the point is to get the most realistic rendition from the ORIGINAL MIDI file. Of course everybody could add advanced drum patterns to that, or guitar solo in the middle or whatever. That's not the point, but no problem anyway it's better that way of course. :o 

Anyway I liked the stage positioning, when i created my version i used this video as a sample (for stage positioning only not for the sound):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gxaUBq6dVY

So trombone on the left, trumpet in the middle, and clarinet on the left side, drums at the back, i didn't know where to place the banjo though haha nevermind, I liked your placement better, its more clear with wide panning brass in the sides and clarinet in the middle.  


Darris:

I don't know if you are commenting on Kauffman's version or mine but i don't hear any lagging. Maybe you hear lagging because of the reverb? Not sure. Anyway i didn't want to make the clarinet too loud because the trombone and clarinet only has second roles here kinda , and mostly the trumpet plays the main melody. There's a place where the clarinet takes the melody and that part is louder, also the parts when the clarinet is answering to others. 

Thanks for your comment though because it was helpful! Maybe I will record the dynamics again, because now that the instruments panned i feel as the whole mix got unbalanced somehow. :? 

(Anyway i play in wind band also for 5 years now, playing french horn)


-------------------------------------------

My question to all of you guys is what would you consider an ideal reverb setting from a technical standpoint for this kind of music (to get a more open feeling)?

Kauffman suggested another hall which is nice, but what should be the technical settings for this room approximately?

Reverb Time (RT): ?sec
Predelay: ?
Early Reflections: how much etc? 
...
...

What would you consider an ideal setting? (Im curious of YOUr answers invidually of course there is no ULTIMATE SETTING, ).

I feel I'm struggling with reverb and EQ the most to get that sound.


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## Saxer (Jul 25, 2014)

i did a dixie mockup a while ago just for fun. different track (you might recognize... ahem... koff koff), trumpet, trombone, tuba and clarinet is samplemodeling. i didn't make the mix complicated, just panning and one send verb for all. for me it comes close to 'the dixie sound' i know from the sixties or seventies when it was 'modern' (at least here in germany).

https://soundcloud.com/saxer/dixietriller


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## Composer007 (Jul 26, 2014)

Ok new version:

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/xsszy9o ... NTS_14.mp3

I recorded the tuba+hihat dynamics this time plus used Kauffman's positioning...


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## re-peat (Jul 26, 2014)

Still a lot more problems than enjoyabilities, I find. 
Spatialization and EQ’s remain very inconsistently applied. (I still like your very first version best, by the way, even though, or more likely because of, it all sounded very muffled and near mono.)

But space, placement, panning nor EQ’ing should be your first concern here. Not even your second.

I’m aware that these are your main interests (and Mr. Kaufmann’s contribution seems to have pushed you even further down that road), but unless you’re prepared to (first) do something about the programming of the instruments as well ― and by ‘something’ I mean: spend a serious amount of time on trying to bring some sparkle, enthusiasm and conviction to these completely lifeless and lame GM-like performances ―, I believe your search for ‘more realism’ by focusing exclusively on the spatialization, placement and the EQ’ing of these tracks, will always remain a futile and totally pointless excercise.
The realism you’re looking for isn’t to be found in the spatial, positional or tonal aspects of the mix, it should first of all be apparent in the performance. What you have here at the moment, is a performance as brought to us by the Walking Dead. A fine ensemble for certain types of music, perhaps, but never one to count on when a certain amount of exuberant joie de vivre is prescribed, as it certainly is in this music.

If that joy and commitment isn’t there to begin with, in every single track, it doesn’t matter whatever else you’re trying to do. With a ridiculous and awful-sounding drumtrack like the one you have now, it doesn’t matter one bit what spatial or EQ-related insights you bring to this mix: the results will *never* convince. And it’s not just those drums, there’s also the 80’s-like clumsy banjo-simulation, the very weak attempt at suggesting the presence of a clarinet and the toy-ish brass … in short: the all-overriding lifeless, Band-In-A-Box-feel and complete absence of spirit in this production.
And your tracks still aren’t playing 'together' either. (The fact that you don’t seem to hear this, is slightly worrying, if I may say so, as it raises all sorts of uncomfortable questions.)

If you want this to end well, you need to start it off well, in my opinion. And that means: NOT skipping the essential step of making first sure that you get the best possible performance out of your instruments via idiomatic and musically sympathetic programming (the SampleModeling range is actually capable of this, so there’s no excuse for ignoring it). 
And once you have that, believe me, you will find that everything which seems such a big problem now (reverb- and tone-related issues), will instantly shrink to easy-to-solve minor matters. The stronger the performance, the easier it is to mix it.

Oh, and ditch VSS. That's a plugin with only one redeeming quality: a quality best heard when not using the plugin.

_


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## Composer007 (Jul 26, 2014)

Re-peat:

As i see others here don't have problem with the performances mainly (except a few things), but with the spacing/EQ/stereo-width mixing part. I see not much problem with the performances either.

If you can make it better I would be interested to hearing that! Please upload your rendition so we can hear it! 

To be honest I not found your critism constructive at all (compared to others). Sure the track have problems, but you not mention any solution, you are just complaining about the quality in a harsh way. 

Make performances better is easy to say. I tried to do my best with the breath controller to shape the dynamics also edited the parts especially in the trumpet to be more life-like. You don't say HOW to do the performances better so i really want to hear your rendition man. 

You also complaining about the EQ/reverb...but you not mentioned any specific info about how to improve it exactly though i was asking for in one of the previous comments for some technical data. Stating the obvious (which other people are already stated before) is not helping again. 

And your last statement is just ridiculous...VSS is a great plugin used by many people to place virtual instruments in a virtual sound stage (not to say calling SM brass "toyish"). 

So all in all, if you want to help than provide solution not just complain and behave like a jerk please. Constructive critism is always welcome though.

------------------------------

To be clear i list a few examples what i would consider giving exact/contructive solution: 

- Make the trumpet shreak more at 2mins 34 sec etc
- Boost the volume of the clarinet to be more audible etc
- Use reverb time between 0.24-1.00 etc
- Use more dynamic variations etc
- ---
- --- 
- ---

Stating that "your track is shit, my ear is bleeding when i listen to it, i hate it blablabla" is definitely NOT helping, and far from contructive critism in my book.


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## dryano (Jul 26, 2014)

Repeat is definetely right here. If you really want to get better, listen to him. Apart from the things the other members said, he really listened for the essence of the whole thing.
And he is also right about VSS... its a useless plugin, which can easily replaced by the proper use of pan, stereo delay and a filter. And that provides much more control.

I also would not listen too much to Mr. Kaufmann... I mean listen to the mock-ups on his website. Is that what you're aiming for?


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## germancomponist (Jul 26, 2014)

re-peat @ Sat Jul 26 said:


> Oh, and ditch VSS. That's a plugin with only one redeeming quality: a quality best heard when not using the plugin.
> 
> _



:mrgreen: 
o-[][]-o


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## Composer007 (Jul 26, 2014)

Dryano:

Hahaha so are u guys start to attack now Mr. Kauffmann's "work" too? Thats sweat poor guy, he only wanted to help though. 

Anyway as I said, since almost everyone agreed that the performances are quite good, I don't see any specific information in his comment that's useful besides "do it better". I miss the HOW part. 

That's why i asked to provide his own rendition in order to hear it what he was talking about (no sarcasm here). 

Again maybe VSS can be easily replaced I (and other people too) still find it useful.


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## Beat Kaufmann (Jul 26, 2014)

Hello again
Thanks for fighting for me, dear Composer007. Maybe the forum is not the right place for making steps forward, specially when so much areas are touched for getting closer to a real performance. These areas are:
A) Using much more articulations for all the instruments
B) Treat the dynamic of each instrument. Most of them are playing currently always with the same volume. 
C) Vary the tempo.
D) Syncronize as real as possible all the instruments with the drums.
E) Make a decision for a real stage possibility and choose a good reverb concept for reaching the aim.
F) Then treat the sound of each instrument (also with EQs) depending on its place on the virtual stage...

All these main themes (A-F) need several abilities:
- the perfect use of your sample library (libraries)
- the ability of using audio effects, such as EQs, Reverbs, compressors, etc. for getting a proper mix.
- the knowledge about what your effects are able to 
- the ability of using your DAW for mixing, routing your instruments and finally to automate your mix.
- the knowledge about acoustics in connection with different rooms (for simulating those acoustics with effects for your used room/space/stage)
- ...

I mentioned somewhere above that mixing is an art...
Observing now all the answers above shows clearly that you got inputs for some of the points A-F and some which are belonging to the abilities (don't use VSS)
And of course all those answers are not very helpful for you because of their huge diversity.

So you probably see now as well that some EQ values or reverb times want save your mix. There will be always a bad point and of course will always be somebody who has a good hint for... well-meant of course.

After these experiences here I recommend to choose subject by subject - if you are still interested in.
The best solution would be when you know somebody who can personally guide you through this "learning tour". Maybe you can find somebody who lives close to you.

What do you think about all this?

Best
Beat


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## trumpoz (Jul 26, 2014)

> Would this recording be tricking you if you weren't know it's virtual?



I'm sorry, but no it wouldn't. That being said, jazz is one of the hardest styles to imitate because 1) so much of the performance it is based on the interaction of all musicians and 2) ensembles are mainly made up of solo instruments which tend to be harder to get right than section/ensemble libraries. 

The articulation on the trumpet in particular isn't natural. If you listen to a dixieland trumpet player it will be a big fat sound from the beginning of the note. The first bar sounds like the not is starting soft and then swells in to the note - this happens consistently throughout the piece. The trombone sounds like that occasionally. The end of the notes on the brass sound as if they are being cut off in the same way. Brass players don't play like that all of the time - even if they do cut the note off with the tongue, there is a very slight decay on the note (fractional). 

I use the TEC breath controller with SM instruments, and I have actually chopped at least 1/3 of the length of the tube off in order to get a more realistic attack and end on the notes. 

The swing feel sounds incredibly choppy and very consistent across the whole performance. Jazz musicians don't have exactly the same time feel for every phrase, it is imperfect for many parts, and that is what captures the spirit of human performance, different accents, different subdivision, playing slightly forward or backward on the beat. 

I like the tone of the clarinet for the most part, but at times the performance seems a little timid. A lot of this goes back to trying to capture the human performance - can you play keyboard and play the notes in to your sequencer in either real time, or at a slower tempo? 

Those are my thoughts, take them or leave them.


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## Composer007 (Jul 27, 2014)

Kauffman, trumpoz:

Thank you guys! I see you really want to help me and thats nice. o-[][]-o 

I feel a bit contradiction about your posts namely you guys mentioned many times that the instruments not playing together (with the drums etc), if i record the whole thing with my keyboard (+BC) it would be much more off in my opinion trumpoz. That's why i recorded only the dynamics. If you feel any lag anyway between instruments thats maybe because the set pre-delay or reverb i choose, if you see the original midi file you can see they are playing together (also sometimes they NOT supposed to play together, there are parts where the clarinet plays something etc, than the trombone playing a similar thing with a bit of delay, thats in the original midi file too and intentional). If you not feel this delay in the original midi and feel only in my rendition it's because of the reverb than. 

You also mentioned many useful points Kauffman again. I feel i can improve the performance part on my own. I need help mostly with reverb/EQ/panning mixing.

So let's go deeper in these topics. 

Since i am a beginner at EQ or mixing i would need more specific answers than general answers here. Namely i asked already what reverb settings would you use exactly (reverb time, delay, would you use the reverb as an insert or send, how much reverb if you send it etc etc).

About EQ boost what frequencies in these type of jazz, which instruments, cut which frequencies?

You also keep saying "Don't use VSS" like a mantra or something, but if it's that useless than how to pan/place instruments properly? 

There are so many questions but i not see any specific answers for these yet. As i said you mention very useful general areas to develop, but please be a bit more specific for a beginner like me. Thanks :wink:


P.S: I keep reading mixing tutorials and such stuff to imrpove so im not waiting that you guys will solve all my problem or anything. But really this EQ, reverb plugins has soooooo many options i got confused how to use it properly. That's the part where i feel need the help most.


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## rayinstirling (Jul 27, 2014)

If the source instrument sound and programming is garbage, no amount of mixing and processing will save it. 
Musicians helping musicians isn't always about encouragement and saying "have a nice day".

Wake up and smell the coffee.


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## Composer007 (Jul 27, 2014)

rayinstirling:

Why do you think the performances and the source sound is garbage? Elaborate it. 

Calling garbage the whole thing is too general again. Be precise and explain exactly how woud you imrove the performances please. Where do you hear glitches exatly in the programming. 

Musicians helping musicians isn't always about encouragement, but it also not about being a jerk and call other people's piece garbage without pointing to any solution. 

Its kinda redundant to keep repeating in every post that the whole thing is a garbage don't you think? Focus on solution istead, that will help me improve. 

In short be more specific please. Is it hard?


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## Martin K (Jul 27, 2014)

Composer007, people are trying to help you here. No need to be so aggressive about it. You're the only one that's gonna suffer from that.

best,
Martin


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## trumpoz (Jul 27, 2014)

There is nothing stopping you from tweaking a performance after you have played it in. Think about this - it is near impossible for two humans to play something precisely together. When we do hear something that perfect it sounds unnatural. At the speed of your track, even 15 midi ticks difference between notes starting in different instruments will be virtually indiscernable but it will make all the difference. We are looking for the illusion of playing in synch, not the mathematical version of it. Swing feel is a personal thing and it is not just the subdivision of notes, but the use of accents, phrasing and positioning of the note in relation to the beat (this is something that jazz musicians spend a lifetime developing and growing) Again, what you play in via keyboard is not set in stone and can be edited - but it needs a level of imperfection to sound real. I'm not the greatest keyboard player but all of my work is played into try and capture a human sound. Try playing just the fist few bars in until you are happy with them. If you are definitely unable to play it in (on a new track) try applying a slight random quantize or the like to each track and then lengthen/shorten notes as required.

IMHO the mixing/processing side is the last 20% or less. You can create a great sense of space and a transparent mix, but if the individual instrument performances don't swing to begin with, then the piece will not have the life it needs.


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## re-peat (Jul 27, 2014)

007,

You may consider me a jerk for saying what I said earlier on — you’re not the first person to think like that, and you probably won’t be the last — but, seriously, everything I wrote is meant to open your ears, intended to make you listen attentively to where you are with this, and then, hopefully, help you make the right decisions, rather than remain focused on things which, at this stage, don’t matter one bit (and even result in more damage than progress).

And again, if you are unwilling or unable to get some idiomatic swing and characterisation in these midi-tracks first (and tighten up your virtual jazz band a bit while you’re at it), you can read as many mixing tutorials as you like, lend an ear to every highly-acclaimed engineer you find willing to share his expertise with you, do whatever you like, it won’t bring any meaningful improvement to this production at all. I am sorry, but that’s how it is. Music needs to be music first before it can be produced well, and I fear that your collection of midi-tracks which make up this piece, doesn’t quite qualify yet. Your instrument tracks still scream lifeless MIDI-artificiality at the moment, and you really have to get rid of that, before moving on. Is my firm opinion.

And some more points:
- Panning or instrument placement is, at this stage, of no importance whatsoever.
- There is no such thing as “EQ-settings for jazz”. Besides, no EQ-setting, no matter how clever, expert or sophisticated, will at this stage improve the believability of this production anyway. (Although, killing some of the thin, exaggerated brightness in those drums is something perhaps worth remembering for later on.)
- The lack of togetherness which many of us hear — and alas, you yourself don’t seem to be among us — has nothing to do with the reverb itself (even though it may well be caused by an all-wet setting in a latency-inducing plugin). But no matter what causes it, the point is that you should hear it, and correct it. (Like I said before, it’s things like these that worry me the most.)
- You ask for specific reverb settings. The answer is: there are none. And it doesn’t matter anyway. If you know what you’re doing, you can make a jazz band like this sound as if recorded in a smallish room, a chamber, or a hall — which one you choose is entirely up to you and a matter of preference — and neither of these choices should have any bearing on the musical integrity and believability of the production. 
As with EQ, there is no established reverb setting for (dixieland) jazz. If you like a room-y sound, choose a room-y reverb, if you prefer a more spacious production, choose a larger sounding reverb. It really isn’t any more complicated than that.
(If you listen to recordings of dixieland jazz bands, or any type of jazz recording for that matter, you’ll find that their ambiences range from very small to very large, and whatever the venue, it never interferes with the projection of the music. I’m going to say it again (already said it a million times before): reverb DOES NOT matter. Simply make sure that you are able to create a somewhat consistent, coherent and musically sympathetic space for your entire ensemble, and be done with it. Don’t overthink it, there are much more important issues to worry about.

The reason I said to stay away from VSS at the moment, is because, and forgive me for saying so, (1) you don’t seem to be ready yet to use it well and (2) when used like you’re using it, it is prone to cause all sorts of audio problems (phasing issues, hollow sound, week and unstable stereo-image, ...) as your mixes so far clearly illustrate.
VSS, you see, is one of the dangerous plugins: people think that they can get spatial realism from it like they get water from a tap, but it doesn’t work like that. Not with VSS, not with MIR, not with SPAT, not with Spaces or Altiverb or a Bricasti. 
In order to get something good out of VSS, and none of its less desirable output, you need to learn it first, experiment with it, study it, discover its strengths and its limitations. (And never forget, especially with VSS, to frequently monitor things in mono.)

So, to round up, I would suggest the following:
- Reprogram the entire piece from scratch. Use the midi-data which you downloaded only as a rough reference, but don’t keep anything of it. And while programming: think music, think joy, think enthusiasm and energy, think impure thoughts. In short: think jazz. (And before programming the banjo and especially the drums, listen to a few examples first.)
- Select a couple of recordings of similar music (real performances) — recordings which appeal to you sonically and spatially — and use these a reference as well, for judging ambience, depth, focus, etc. ...
- Discover and learn to exploit the power of the tools you’ve selected to work with: get the best possible trumpet, trombone, tuba and clarinet out of the SampleModeling software (and not just any old trumpet or trombone, but a specimen that is suited to the music you want to have it play), learn your reverb software and every other tool which finds its way into your mix. 
- Always focus on the music. If you’ve programmed your instruments well, your mix should already sound fairly strong and generate a fair amount of foot-tapping excitement, with only the simplest of reverbs and no placement or EQ’ing at all. In mono or stereo, it shouldn’t make one bit of difference. That is the power of good programming: it reduces everything else — reverb, EQ’ing, panning, positioning.... — to its true size and importance which is a rather minor one in the context of a mix that contains convincing music-making.

_


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## Composer007 (Jul 27, 2014)

Martin K: 

Why pointing out the need for constructive critism in a music forum equals with agressivity in your mind is beyond my comprehension. I typing my comments usually with stoic calmness. If you refer to calling people a jerk yes i call everyone a jerk who not trying to help just throw rubbish at others instead. 

If a painter on a painter forum asks for help to make his painting better, and people would comment his work like "thats garbage", "make it better", "this looks like my dog's poop" i hope you understand that it wouldnt help a lot. Why? Because terms like "garbage", "better", "good", "best", "shit" are totally subjective and can mean various things from person to person. 

Pointing out the errors simply is not enough to be constructive, because it's the easiest part. Elaborating in detail what to do in a step by step way is much more useful (even if sometimes it's simply not possible to give that detailed answer, like EQ is also a personal thing). 

Kauffman at least made a mockup himself and showed me what he was referring to in his comment. I think that's the easiest was to show someone something because sometimes words are not enough and can be VERY confusing when it comes to describing music accurately. That's why I encouraged others to do the same. 


Trumpoz:

I can easily play all instrument parts from my keyboard and record it since i play the piano for 15+ years now. That's not a problem. The problem is that i have to realize that even when i tried to record it something totally accurately to my DAW (Reaper), i had to realize that the playback wasnt accurate enough because of a bit latency here and there (I think I use WASAPI in Reaper now and it shows a 20ms latency).

The problem is this in a nutshell:

"Your performance will be captured exactly as you played it, and will also play back exactly the same, but since you hear jittery timing when actually playing, it makes it more difficult to play consistently in the first place.
This (as I explained in detail in SOS September and October 2002, in 'The Truth About Latency') is because most sequencers effectively quantise incoming MIDI data before sending it 'live' to a soft synth or sampler. The synth's output is calculated for each audio buffer and then sent to your audio interface to be heard, and the most common way of doing this is to process all relevant MIDI data (both already recorded in the track, and any 'live' data that you're currently playing) before starting to process the next audio buffer.
Unfortunately, most sequencers choose not to calculate any offsets within the next buffer relating to 'live' MIDI data — they just quantise them all to the nearest buffer boundary, and rely on the buffers being short enough to mask unwanted rhythmic artifacts. The main reason they do this is to keep every note's MIDI latency as low as possible, but at the expense of extra jitter.
For instance, if you play regular 16th notes at 120bpm, each note will occur at an interval of 125ms, but when a soft synth is played 'live' through an audio interface with a buffer size of 5ms you'll perhaps hear them with spacings such as 125ms, 125ms, 125ms, 130ms, 120ms, 130ms, 125ms and so on, where occasional notes get shoved into adjacent buffers. For most people this is still scarcely audible, but if you raise the buffer size to 20ms then you might hear a string of 'live' notes emerging with spacings of 120ms, 120ms, 120ms, 140ms, 120ms, 120ms, 140ms and so on: the 'granularity' has increased. "

You can read about that issue here: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec07/a ... h_1207.htm

Because of this i decided to record the dynamics only, but i agree that with very-very small latency it would make a much realistic performance if i would play the whole thing.


Re-peat:

See? Your last comment was LOT more supportive than the first. :wink: 

People not calling you a jerk because you point out errors mainly, but because of your STYLE how you do this. You could write the most useful comments ever if you behave like a jerk...well people will think you are a jerk. How to write your critism without hurting others and without that dramatic harsness i let you to figure out on your own.

Anyway you made some very good points here too. Listening to existing live recordings is a very good thing. My method with orchestral mockups is that i get the sheet music, i get the best recording of the actual piece (which i like the most), and play along and record the dynamics or sometimes the whole part me playing with the keyboard+BC. 

For jazz and dixie type of stuff its more hard because there is no sheet music for these type of things since there a lots of improvisation going on in these performances. So i download midi instead.

The closes live recording i found considering instrumentation and sound is this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q0zZ0VdlUM

I will try to boost the performances somehow in the following days/weeks and i will upload here. I hope it will be better next time.


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## re-peat (Jul 27, 2014)

Here's a rather useful video to help you with the (programming of the) drums: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1q9o6nSEE0
And maybe have a really good listen to the other instruments as well. The tuba, for example. Hear how it varies between short and long staccato's, depending on the phrase and the transition. There's dozens of little things like that to be picked up from this video which will, I hope, prove beneficial to your work.

_


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## Hannes_F (Jul 27, 2014)

Composer007 @ Sun Jul 27 said:


> The problem is that i have to realize that even when i tried to record it something totally accurately to my DAW (Reaper), i had to realize that the playback wasnt accurate enough



You could try this: Reduce the project speed to 80 % or the like and perform musically, but in slow-motion.



> because of a bit latency here and there (I think I use WASAPI in Reaper now and it shows a 20ms latency).



Hmm ... with a proper audio interface it should be possible to go to 10 ms or below, and then the latency should be much more consistent in itself.


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## Udo (Jul 27, 2014)

>> syncopation ..., syncopation ..., e la s t ic - s yn c o pa t io n


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## Composer007 (Jul 28, 2014)

First i want to improve the 3 "main" instruments performances (trumpet+clarinet+trombone) so please help me pointing out what is exactly the problem with these.

(besides the fact that its a midi recording not me played it into the DAW)

Not enough swing (or syncopation as udo said)? Not enough vibrato? Dynamics? Phrasing? If dynamics/phrasing etc what are the problems with these too exactly? Where are you hearing problems in the samples i uploaded?

Please write concrete things because if you just write they are not right because, i won't know how to fix it properly. Thnx.


PS: Thanks for the link re-peat i will check it out.


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## Saxer (Jul 28, 2014)

Composer007 @ 28.7.2014 said:


> Please write concrete things because if you just write they are not right because, i won't know how to fix it properly. Thnx.


you can't get a manual for playing *right* in certain a musical style. it's like me (as a german) asking you how to talk new york and kentucky slang. the only answer can be: learn proper english, visit new york and kentucky, listen to the people and talk to them for a couple of years.

so the first step for you would be: learn to play your instrument.

next step: listen to dixieland and play dixieland. learn the tunes, learn to swing, play in a band, copy solos of other instruments on your main instrument, write them down or record them.

next step: get used to play virtual instruments. as you know how real instruments play you will hear what virtual instruments can and can't do.

next step: develope the tricks to do things on virtual instruments that can't be done up to now.

next step: record your tracks.

last step: adjust pan and put reverb on it.


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## Composer007 (Jul 28, 2014)

That's ok Saxer. My problem is that there are mainy two group of people here in this thread: 

One liked the performances as it is kinda:

Jdiggity1: "You could fool some people, simply because the performances sounds real enough."

lucor: "I really like the winds and brass though from a performance standpoint!"

Hannes: "Dynamic-wise I found it quite good."

Darris: "Other than that, the actual dynamic phrasing of the instruments is great "


Than comes Re-peat and say that the performances are totally garbage blablabla.  

I hope you realize how confused i am now. I just want to know why the other group says the performances are garbage when the other think its quite good. (o) :|


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## Saxer (Jul 28, 2014)

yepp, different people, different ears, different views.

if you want to convince someone with the track to be a 'real dixie band recording':

it might work for my mother. it might work for some music guys who produce dancefloor stuff and are complete inside the synth- and sample world.
it will not work for people who ever had been in a jazz concert and listened. and it will never ever work for people who ever played that kind of music. not for two seconds.


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## Jaap (Jul 28, 2014)

Hi composer007,

I have listened to the panned version and your first final version and before you dive into any stuff like eq, panning, reverb etc you should focus in my opinion on reprogramming all the midi. Most of it has been said before by re-peat and he gave some good advice and I think you should follow it in order to achieve what you want.

Listen to all kinds of dixieland and listen very careful how certain instruments work. Ask maybe around in your network about some advice from maybe a tuba, clarinet, trumpet or percussion player how they would play it. Study the instruments (also study when they have to breathe because working without breath breaks sounds very unnatural).

Play every single instrument into your dawn and play it with a musical feeling. Ride the cc knobs and get the swing and musical feeling into your own performance.
If you have created a satisfying midi performance you should start worrying about the mix, but for now I would forget everything that has to do with the mix and first get some swing and musicality in your midi 

Check out maybe Mike Verta's his video about VI playing techniques: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OktpoOztRvQ (part 1) and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77mXAWr1QN8 (part 2). Maybe this helps to get some ideas.

Good luck!


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## Composer007 (Jul 28, 2014)

You not hear the swinging even in the original midi? Or you not hear in my version only?


PS: Very useful videos anyway Jaap thanks.


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## Jaap (Jul 28, 2014)

Of course it swings, but not musical if you know what I mean. It feels too midi, too static.. A good swing or rhythm is something you feel in your body and just playing a swing rhythm is not enough. You have to play it with musical feeling. 
How to achieve that is to not think as composer, but as musician when you play.


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## trumpoz (Jul 28, 2014)

If you send a link to the trumpet track exported on its own with no reverb or eq to

[email protected] 

I'd be happy to go through it with a fine - tooth comb. My musical life for the past 20 years has been playing trumpet in jazz, Latin and various commercial bands/ensembles. I'd be happy to take a look at the midi file and pull that apart as well. 

Richard


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## marclawsonmusic (Jul 28, 2014)

Composer007 @ Mon Jul 28 said:


> First i want to improve the 3 "main" instruments performances (trumpet+clarinet+trombone) so please help me pointing out what is exactly the problem with these.



Actually, since this is a band piece, you might want to start with the drums first. They are the foundation. 

Then, maybe move on to the tuba since it has the bass.

If you get those two things solid, it will be a lot easier to "lock in" and get a good performance out of the other instruments.


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## Rob (Jul 28, 2014)

marclawsonmusic @ 28th July 2014 said:


> Composer007 @ Mon Jul 28 said:
> 
> 
> > First i want to improve the 3 "main" instruments performances (trumpet+clarinet+trombone) so please help me pointing out what is exactly the problem with these.
> ...



+1


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## Hannes_F (Jul 28, 2014)

+2
After re-listening on monitors I have to change what I said ... I liked the dynamics more when I listened on laptop speakers.

The redering is not really bad, for example it could work for some seconds in a cartoon when a school dixie band comes in. Not for listening to it in the sense of a recording:

- Instruments do not play 'in the pocket' aka 'together but with an elastic swing'
- There is no weaving in or out in the rhythm section. Usually drums, tuba, bass (if used) etc. comment a bit on the melody, e.g. filling gaps, announcing new parts, commenting or anticipating new stuff etc.


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## Composer007 (Jul 28, 2014)

Trumpoz:

Mail sent! Thanks for helping!

marclawsonmusic:

Ok. I will start with the drums then. Good idea.

Hannes: 

Thanks for the hints!


Let me ask you before i start to shape the drum part a bit, which drum sound do you prefer better:

I used this drumset from CinePerc in my mix:

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/blrb7ob2b96buik/DRUMS_ONLY_CP.mp3 (http://www.mediafire.com/listen/blrb7ob ... NLY_CP.mp3)

But maybe i should use this for this type of music (Abbey Road Vintage Drummer - Ebony kit):

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/6arxr26 ... _ABRVD.mp3

/\~O


PS: I not edited anything in this 2 recordings. No EQ, no verb, same settings, they sound totally different though...


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## Saxer (Jul 29, 2014)

part 1 of an interesting series about drum history... includes dixie (in part 5 i think)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM869WYpp-0


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## Rob (Jul 29, 2014)

Composer007 @ 28th July 2014 said:


> Trumpoz:
> 
> Mail sent! Thanks for helping!
> 
> ...



Ebony kit is much better, more raw sounding and better dynamics


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