# [SPINOFF) Rate discussion from "Wanted - Music Composer for Nintendoish RPG that teaches Japanese" thread



## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 16, 2020)

melonmintgames said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I am looking for a music composer for my Indie Game called "Nihongo Quest."
> 
> ...


Whoever created this game you should tell them that their budget is exploitative. No composer should work for $50 per minute of music. I strongly suggest composers not compose original music for less than $500 per minute as the absolute lowest rate. There are royalty free libraries producers can use to pay for music for much less than $500 per minute, but that also means the music is not exclusive for that project. 

When someone gets hired at a minimum wage they should not also be required to be an investor of someone else’s project yet they get no investment return on it. Being a composer you are not only creating original product but more often than not need to spend a lot of money on equipment to be able to deliver a final product. This costs need to be addressed by anyone hiring you including your costs for being alive, maintaining a studio, electricity, etc... $500 per minute of music should be the absolute lowest rate anyone should work for.

Hans Zimmer and John Williams get $3 million for a major film, that does not include the backend royalties they receive or the percentage of adjusted gross box office. That means they are getting at least $40,000 per minute of music or possibly way more than that. No composer should be working for $50 per minute of music, that’s just absurd and if more people refused to work for so little producers would be forced to pay much higher and more reasonable rates. IMHO I don’t think professional composers should work for less than $1,000 per minute of music, so the rate I gave above is half that, think about it.


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## dcoscina (Jul 16, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> Whoever created this game you should tell them that their budget is exploitative. No composer should work for $50 per minute of music. I strongly suggest composers not compose original music for less than $500 per minute as the absolute lowest rate. There are royalty free libraries producers can use to pay for music for much less than $500 per minute, but that also means the music is not exclusive for that project.
> 
> When someone gets hired at a minimum wage they should not also be required to be an investor of someone else’s project yet they get no investment return on it. Being a composer you are not only creating original product but more often than not need to spend a lot of money on equipment to be able to deliver a final product. This costs need to be addressed by anyone hiring you including your costs for being alive, maintaining a studio, electricity, etc... $500 per minute of music should be the absolute lowest rate anyone should work for.
> 
> Hans Zimmer and John Williams get $3 million for a major film, that does not include the backend royalties they receive or the percentage of adjusted gross box office. That means they are getting at least $40,000 per minute of music or possibly way more than that. No composer should be working for $50 per minute of music, that’s just absurd and if more people refused to work for so little producers would be forced to pay much higher and more reasonable rates. IMHO I don’t think professional composers should work for less than $1,000 per minute of music, so the rate I gave above is half that, think about it.


Yeah I’ve done work on ads and RPGs for around $75 per minute and even after I delivered a score that the developer loved, they wouldn’t agree to paying more money for their next project so I didn’t end up scoring it. It’s a race to the bottom these days...

that said, it is important to look at the total budget of any project. You cannot impose the pay structure that the two top Hollywood composers get for scoring blockbuster movies as a yardstick for what composers should earn. It’s up to the individual composer as to what they feel They are worth. And it’s up to clients to to decide whether paying more is worth it for their project.

I scored a few ads for an agency thanks to my friend who worked there as an editor. After Idelivered the score, he told me his co workers were all impressed with the music and he said “that’s because it wasn’t library music edited to match the ad, but it’s music composed FOR picture”. So some people can appreciate the difference. But the question is whether they appreciate it enough with their wallets.
Often, The old adage is “you get what you pay for”.


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## Rory (Jul 16, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> $500 per minute of music should be the absolute lowest rate anyone should work for.
> 
> IMHO I don’t think professional composers should work for less than $1,000 per minute of music, so the rate I gave above is half that, think about it.



Hi, are these numbers based on industry practice or data or do they just reflect your personal view?

The budget stated in the first post is $3,000 - $4,000. Your preferred number would seem to require an increase to $30,000 - $40,000. Your rock bottom number would bring it to $15,000 - $20,000.


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## Tice (Jul 16, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> Whoever created this game you should tell them that their budget is exploitative. No composer should work for $50 per minute of music. I strongly suggest composers not compose original music for less than $500 per minute as the absolute lowest rate. There are royalty free libraries producers can use to pay for music for much less than $500 per minute, but that also means the music is not exclusive for that project.
> 
> When someone gets hired at a minimum wage they should not also be required to be an investor of someone else’s project yet they get no investment return on it. Being a composer you are not only creating original product but more often than not need to spend a lot of money on equipment to be able to deliver a final product. This costs need to be addressed by anyone hiring you including your costs for being alive, maintaining a studio, electricity, etc... $500 per minute of music should be the absolute lowest rate anyone should work for.
> 
> Hans Zimmer and John Williams get $3 million for a major film, that does not include the backend royalties they receive or the percentage of adjusted gross box office. That means they are getting at least $40,000 per minute of music or possibly way more than that. No composer should be working for $50 per minute of music, that’s just absurd and if more people refused to work for so little producers would be forced to pay much higher and more reasonable rates. IMHO I don’t think professional composers should work for less than $1,000 per minute of music, so the rate I gave above is half that, think about it.



While I can find little fault in what you're saying, I also know that there's no getting around the fact that indie devs have limited budgets. And that if they're in need of a certain amount of music for that limited budget, you end up either working for a low rate per hour of work, or you deliver music that'll likely reflect poorly on your skill as a composer. I believe it's upto the designers to design their game such that they can make good use of the budget they have. So if they can only afford to do 5 minutes of music well, don't do 30 minutes of music poorly, but design your game such that it only needs the 5 minutes that are done well. That'd be no different from deciding not to do a massive open world if all you can make for the budget you have is a randomly generated plain with nothing much to do in it.
All that said, composers trying to break into the industry can hardly be blamed for taking whatever opportunity comes knocking, since it could be the only chance you get.
All that to say, from a human perspective, I get why it happens. That doesn't make the outcome any better though.


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## chrisr (Jul 16, 2020)

I would agree that the developer should probably cut back their expectations to having 1 of each theme - so 7 x themes - not 58. A quick web-search would suggest that this may be the first game project of a 1 man band who has a genuine passion for the Japanese language and not a lot of cash - rather than some Machiavellian figure looking to exploit young composers. I also suspect that the game might not make a profit, if it makes it to market, and that the composer should ask for half the fee upfront and the other half before final delivery.

Many years ago I wrote (and was paid for) a few games that didn't make it to market. Bit depressing all round, especially for the poor developer. :(


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 16, 2020)

Tice said:


> While I can find little fault in what you're saying, I also know that there's no getting around the fact that indie devs have limited budgets. And that if they're in need of a certain amount of music for that limited budget, you end up either working for a low rate per hour of work, or you deliver music that'll likely reflect poorly on your skill as a composer. I believe it's upto the designers to design their game such that they can make good use of the budget they have. So if they can only afford to do 5 minutes of music well, don't do 30 minutes of music poorly, but design your game such that it only needs the 5 minutes that are done well. That'd be no different from deciding not to do a massive open world if all you can make for the budget you have is a randomly generated plain with nothing much to do in it.
> All that said, composers trying to break into the industry can hardly be blamed for taking whatever opportunity comes knocking, since it could be the only chance you get.
> All that to say, from a human perspective, I get why it happens. That doesn't make the outcome any better though.


I say, don’t ever work that cheap. Let them be forced to use non-exclusive royalty free music libraries and if they want tailored custom original music they will be forced to raise more money for their project!!!


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 16, 2020)

Rory said:


> Hi, are these numbers based on industry practice or data or do they just reflect your personal view?
> 
> The budget stated in the first post is $3,000 - $4,000. Your preferred number would seem to require an increase to $30,000 - $40,000. Your rock bottom number would bring it to $15,000 - $20,000.


Imagine telling a plumber who wants $150 an hour that your budget is only for $15, ya think he’s gonna show up? Never! No composer should allow a producer to oppress and exploit him this horribly!!


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 16, 2020)

dcoscina said:


> Yeah I’ve done work on ads and RPGs for around $75 per minute and even after I delivered a score that the developer loved, they wouldn’t agree to paying more money for their next project so I didn’t end up scoring it. It’s a race to the bottom these days...
> 
> that said, it is important to look at the total budget of any project. You cannot impose the pay structure that the two top Hollywood composers get for scoring blockbuster movies as a yardstick for what composers should earn. It’s up to the individual composer as to what they feel They are worth. And it’s up to clients to to decide whether paying more is worth it for their project.
> 
> ...


Did I say charge $40,000-$80,000 per minute of music? No. No where near those rates. $500 per minute is 1/80th to 1/160th that amount and is a very low rate to begin with. If they can’t afford a composer force them to buy non-exclusive royalty free music library cues!!! It is astounding that anyone would work for less.


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## Rory (Jul 16, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> Imagine telling a plumber who wants $150 an hour that your budget is only for $15, ya think he’s gonna show up? Never! No composer should allow a producer to oppress and exploit him this horribly!!


I asked you what your numbers are based on. It's a reasonable question. I can get quite solid info on what the local rates are for plumbers.


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## Tice (Jul 16, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> Imagine telling a plumber who wants $150 an hour that your budget is only for $15, ya think he’s gonna show up? Never! No composer should allow a producer to oppress and exploit him this horribly!!



I don't disagree with you. But it's also not a distantiated technical system you're describing. There's humans involved. Humans who worry that they might never get another shot at this.


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 16, 2020)

Rory said:


> I asked you what your numbers are based on. It's a reasonable question. I can get quite solid info on what the local rates are for plumbers.


From my 30 plus years of being in the biz. You are bringing up a huge issue too since if you reach out to most successful composers they will not ever talk about how much they charge, that’s part of this problem. I’m not talking about the top A-list composers as info slips out on their fees. I’m talking about nuts and bolts composers who are not at the top of the A-list. There are some articles written about this too. I will include a link below. This article mentions some rates that I learned over decades are really lowball rates for composers who really should hold out for more.









Film Composer Salary - How Much Can You Make? | DIY Film Composer


What is a typical film composer salary? This post breaks down how much composers get paid for working on different types of projects.




www.diyfilmcomposer.com





There is a better source I have to find again than this article. Typically, composers get 2-5% of the production budget. However, it’s important to gauge how much music they want you to write as well, and one must make sure that the minimum rate per minute does not fall too low especially if the project’s budget is not particularly sizeable enough. Working on student films usually pays nothing. Indie films can pay 💰 some money so I suggest not to ever work for less than $500 per minute. And, none of my rates include the cost of hiring live musicians, orchestrators, copyists, engineers, etc... My suggested minimum rate is purely for creative fees. If they want to pay you a package price and the composer is responsible for the orchestra recording and other live musicians then your package price must be your creative fee plus the entire cost to pay for the orchestra recording including conductor, booker, copyists and orchestrators.


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 16, 2020)

Tice said:


> I don't disagree with you. But it's also not a distantiated technical system you're describing. There's humans involved. Humans who worry that they might never get another shot at this.


That’s exactly the problem. And, I’ve been in those shoes so I speak from experience. But realize usually the less you charge the more they don’t respect you and it’s not easy to get them to raise your rates. And, if they do raise your rates it’s like here’s another penny for ya. I have found that there is no end to paying your dues if you simply succumb to a take it or leave it offer. You will spend your whole career making nothing and go broke. What’s even scarier is that major Hollywood studios engage in lowballing composers too and so do tons of A-list producers. These studios are completely prepared to pay composers so much more than they offer them and many composers get scared and succumb to a lowball offer not realizing how much the studio is used to paying and was prepared to pay them.


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## Rory (Jul 16, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> Typically, composers get 2-5% of the production budget. However, it’s important to gauge how much music they want you to write as well, and one must make sure that the minimum rate per minute does not fall too low especially if the project’s budget is not particularly sizeable enough. Working on student films usually pays nothing. Indie films can pay 💰 some money so I suggest not to ever work for less than $500 per minute. And, none of my rates include the cost of hiring live musicians, orchestrators, copyists, engineers, etc... My suggested minimum rate is purely for creative fees. If they want to pay you a package price and the composer is responsible for the orchestra recording and other live musicians then your package price must be your creative fee plus the entire cost to pay for the orchestra recording including conductor, booker, copyists and orchestrators.



I think that you're basically saying that people shouldn't work on low-budget productions. I also think that your last three sentences above just aren't about the low budget world.


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 16, 2020)

Tice said:


> Your heart is obviously in the right place, I don't doubt that. May I suggest a more open-ended approach to negotiations:
> Tell the composer you're negotiating with what your budget for music is and ask them what they can do for that budget. The composer will often have great ideas for maximizing the amount of music you do have so that you can do more with less.
> Rather than having a clear idea of what music you want where in your game, trust their expertise to find out what you can really do with the means you have.


For $4,000 it would not reasonable to ask a composer to write 8 minutes of finished music, so in his scenario that’s 16 30-second original cues tailored exclusively just for his game. That’s reasonable. Of course there are composers willing to work for much less, but they are only hurting themselves in the process by being willing to get lowballed in a career that requires talent and high capital expenditures.


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## Tice (Jul 16, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> For $4,000 it would not reasonable to ask a composer to write 8 minutes of finished music, so in his scenario that’s 16 30-second original cues tailored exclusively just for his game. That’s reasonable. Of course there are composers willing to work for much less, but they are only hurting themselves in the process by being willing to get lowballed in a career that requires talent and high capital expenditures.


There's another way to look at it. Rather than musically representing every area uniquely (thus needing lots of short loops), you could go for representing moods. (If the player is doing well, you have one piece of music, if the player is doing less well, you get another piece, and if the player is nearly defeated, you get another) Then you might need a loop for story beats, and a main menu loop. That's 5 pieces that can be a bit longer and fleshed out.
And then there's ambient sounds that can be produced much more cheaply per minute.


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## Brian99 (Jul 16, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> Imagine telling a plumber who wants $150 an hour that your budget is only for $15, ya think he’s gonna show up? Never! No composer should allow a producer to oppress and exploit him this horribly!!



Here's the difference, according to this thread it appears there are several people willing to do the work at the amount offered. The OP did the right thing by stating up front what he was looking for and what he was willing to pay. If that's not something your willing to do then don't offer you're services, but no need to knock the people who are.


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 16, 2020)

Brian99 said:


> Here's the difference, according to this thread it appears there are several people willing to do the work at the amount offered. The OP did the right thing by stating up front what he was looking for and what he was willing to pay. If that's not something your willing to do then don't offer you're services, but no need to knock the people who are.


I’m trying to educate and protect them since there is no composers union and I’ve been taken advantage of before and it’s impossible to get other composers to communicate about this topic. If people don’t know any better they will get exploited terribly and one day look back and really resent it. This industry has financial consequences and if you want to be a professional and don’t earn a reasonable wage then will be forced to sell your gear and find an entirely new line of work to pursue.


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 16, 2020)

Rory said:


> I think that you're basically saying that people shouldn't work on low-budget productions. I also think that your last three sentences above just aren't about the low budget world.


For example, an indie film with a $400,000 production budget can pay a composer, and I know several composers that do just this kind of work routinely, $15,000-$20,000 for 30-40 minutes or original music. It’s definitely a lowball rate but it’s not nothing or close to nothing. It’s on the very bottom of the reasonable scale range.

There’s nothing wrong with a small $4,000 project budget, but it should be for 8 minutes of total music or much less, that’s all.


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## gtrwll (Jul 16, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> For $4,000 it would not reasonable to ask a composer to write 8 minutes of finished music, so in his scenario that’s 16 30-second original cues tailored exclusively just for his game. That’s reasonable.



Reasonable for the composer, but an RPG with 8 minutes of music doesn’t sound like a reasonable idea.


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 16, 2020)

gtrwll said:


> Reasonable for the composer, but an RPG with 8 minutes of music doesn’t sound like a reasonable idea.


Hey, I’m trying to protect people. If someone is willing to work for close to nothing, Bon Appetite!! Maybe students living in dorms or people still living with their parents would be willing to do this kind of low paying work. I’m talking to professionals out there and people who aspire to be professional composers.


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## Rory (Jul 16, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> For example, an indie film with a $400,000 production budget can pay a composer, and I know several composers that do just this kind of work routinely, $15,000-$20,000 for 30-40 minutes or original music. It’s definitely a lowball rate but it’s not nothing or close to nothing. It’s on the very bottom of the reasonable scale range.




You have a pretty narrow understanding of what "low budget production" means.


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## gtrwll (Jul 16, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> Hey, I’m trying to protect people. If someone is willing to work for close to nothing, Bon Appetite!! Maybe students living in dorms or people still living with their parents would be willing to do this kind of low paying work. I’m talking to professionals out there and people who aspire to be professional composers.



I know, and I’m certainly not blaming you for it.

It’s just that based on what you’re saying here reflects your long experience with films and film business. I’m not sure if the same principles are applicable when talking about indie game projects, let alone one person educational game projects.


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 16, 2020)

Rory said:


> Hi, are these numbers based on industry practice or data or do they just reflect your personal view?
> 
> The budget stated in the first post is $3,000 - $4,000. Your preferred number would seem to require an increase to $30,000 - $40,000. Your rock bottom number would bring it to $15,000 - $20,000.


I’m not telling him to raise his budget amount beyond $4,000. If that’s all he can afford that’s fine. I’m saying that $4,000 can buy you tons of non-exclusive royalty free music library cues or around 8 minutes of totally original music for his project. If he needs 60 minutes of music then go get music library cues, that’s all. 

If you tell a taxi driver take me to the airport but I only have $10, he is gonna tell you to get out of his cab 🚕 if the fare is more like $125 plus tolls. Too many composers have no clue what to charge and too many successful composers at all different stages of their career won’t discuss rates. So only the studios, top agents/managers and entertainment attorneys know what people can get paid, and if u don’t have the fortune to have one of these experiences people in your corner you are likely to get completely screwed.


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## Rory (Jul 16, 2020)

Rory said:


> I think that you're basically saying that people shouldn't work on low-budget productions. I also think that your last three sentences above just aren't about the low budget world.





MartinH. said:


> It's probably good advice too :-/.



It obviously works for him. It doesn't work for a lot of producers or for young composers who are interested in a particular project and want a foot in the door.


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 16, 2020)

gtrwll said:


> I know, and I’m certainly not blaming you for it.
> 
> It’s just that based on what you’re saying here reflects your long experience with films and film business. I’m not sure if the same principles are applicable when talking about indie game projects, let alone one person educational game projects.


The video game market grosses more revenue then the entire global film market. Now it’s not like this is an Electronic Arts game so I understand his budget is very small and not millions of dollars, but the same principals apply. Either get 2-5% of the total budget or $500 per minute of music, whichever is more money.


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 16, 2020)

Rory said:


> It obviously works for him. It doesn't work for a lot of producers or for young composers who are interested in a particular project and want a foot in the door.


I’ve done this exact game, usually it gets you in the door but they won’t respect you for working so cheaply and any future raise is basically continuing the initial insulting offer. Rarely ever will getting the credits for these low budget projects matter at all in helping to propel your career.


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## Tice (Jul 16, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> The video game market grosses more revenue then the entire global film market. Now it’s not like this is an Electronic Arts game so I understand his budget is very small and not millions of dollars, but the same principals apply. Either get 2-5% of the total budget or $500 per minute of music, whichever is more money.


Don't forget that it's upto us as composers to convince the developers that your 10 minutes of music is a better investment than somebody else's 30 minutes. If you can't do that, that's not on them.


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 16, 2020)

Tice said:


> Don't forget that it's upto us as composers to convince the developers that your 10 minutes of music is a better investment than somebody else's 30 minutes. If you can't do that, that's not on them.


No one has to convince anyone anything. As a composer you create a reel and add to it as you complete more projects. You put yourself out there and either get the gig or you don’t. If someone wants to hire someone else or use music library cues that’s not in your control. There is nothing for anyone to convince, people want to work with you or they don’t. Don’t over think this. It’s not a composer’s job to convince anyone, let his reel impress or not.


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## Tice (Jul 16, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> No one has to convince anyone anything. As a composer you create a reel and add to it as you complete more projects. You put yourself out there and either get the gig or you don’t. If someone wants to hire someone else or use music library cues that’s not in your control. There is nothing for anyone to convince, people want to work with you or they don’t. Don’t over think this. It’s not a composer’s job to convince anyone, let his reel impress or not.


It also factors in how nice you are to work with. How able you are to think outside the box and adapt to limitations of a project. Your portfolio is not enough.


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 16, 2020)

Rory said:


> I asked you what your numbers are based on. It's a reasonable question. I can get quite solid info on what the local rates are for plumbers.


I will include more links about this below as corroborated sources with my experience:



http://www.mattsmall.org/CommBasicGuide04.pdf







__





Television Composers: TAXI FAQs Film & TV Music


Get your music to the right people with TAXI: The Independent A&R Vehicle that connects unsigned artists, bands and songwriters with major record labels, publishers, and film & TV music supervisors.




taxi.com










How Much Money Do Film Scorers Get Paid?


How Much Money Do Film Scorers Get Paid?. Music has long been a source of emotion in movies. Take your average horror film. By the music alone, you probably know that the killer is lurking just around the corner. Dramas, on the other hand, use scores to expose inner feelings or heighten the...




work.chron.com





http://www.grandviewperformingarts.org/Files/UploadedFiles/Music%20Industry%20Career%20and%20Salary%20Information.pdf








How To Become A Composer For Film (5 Tips From A Netflix Producer)


If you're looking to become a film composer or tv composer, Berklee graduate and renowned TV composer Oguz Ozcanli shows his 5 step process to success.




producerhive.com





I am a member of AFM. If you see what minimum rates are for musicians and orchestrators then realize the composer should make even more money either per hour of his time or per page of music.


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## Rory (Jul 16, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> I’ve done this exact game, usually it gets you in the door but they won’t respect you for working so cheaply and any future raise is basically continuing the initial insulting offer. Rarely ever will getting the credits for these low budget projects matter at all in helping to propel your career.



In the context of filmmaking in New York, which I have a fair amount of experience with, every word of that is out of touch with reality and factually incorrect. The one thing that's clear is that your use of the word insulting means that there is zero prospect of you working on a low budget project or of even being approached to work on one.


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## dcoscina (Jul 16, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> I’m not telling him to raise his budget amount beyond $4,000. If that’s all he can afford that’s fine. I’m saying that $4,000 can buy you tons of non-exclusive royalty free music library cues or around 8 minutes of totally original music for his project. If he needs 60 minutes of music then go get music library cues, that’s all.
> 
> If you tell a taxi driver take me to the airport but I only have $10, he is gonna tell you to get out of his cab 🚕 if the fare is more like $125 plus tolls. Too many composers have no clue what to charge and too many successful composers at all different stages of their career won’t discuss rates. So only the studios, top agents/managers and entertainment attorneys know what people can get paid, and if u don’t have the fortune to have one of these experiences people in your corner you are likely to get completely screwed.


I get and appreciate what you are saying. I did a trailer for a documentary a few years ago when I had time and it was a pitch to write the score to the film. They loved the music and wanted to hire me.. so I looked up rates on the Canadian Film Composer's guild which has various plateaus of Pay scales depending on the project. This was a 90 minute documentary with a lot of music. I quoted them $12500 and that was the lowest end of the spectrum. They said “we were thinking $1500 for the whole score”. Because I’m professional I didn’t say “get fucked” but I flat out said “no” and also forbade them to use my trailer music to generate funds for their film. Petty? No. I call it artistic integrity.


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 16, 2020)

dcoscina said:


> I get and appreciate what you are saying. I did a trailer for a documentary a few years ago when I had time and it was a pitch to write the score to the film. They loved the music and wanted to hire me.. so I looked up rates on the Canadian Film Composer's guild which has various plateaus of Pay scales depending on the project. This was a 90 minute documentary with a lot of music. I quoted them $12500 and that was the lowest end of the spectrum. They said “we were thinking $1500 for the whole score”. Because I’m professional I didn’t say “get fucked” but I flat out said “no” and also forbade them to use my trailer music to generate funds for their film. Petty? No. I call it artistic integrity.


Good for u!!!!!!

If composers stop working for basically peanuts 🥜 these producers and companies will be forced to pay much higher and more reasonable rates. No one is paying me millions to do their film, and the A-list composers don’t have to worry about being ripped off. It’s everyone else who doesn’t have good representation who suffers.

Once got paid $2,500 for a trailer for an Oscar winning film that the studio adored. Then I found out they could have paid me $25,000. So the person who hired me, a college fraternity brother and supposed friend, lied to me and horribly ripped me off. Haven’t spoken to him since. This business is brutal.


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 16, 2020)

If a composer is wo


MartinH. said:


> It's probably good advice too :-/.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Then give the composer a big percentage of profits if the project succeeds. I know composers who take gross points on the backend for reduced front end creative fees when projects have budget constraints.


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## Rory (Jul 16, 2020)

I think that it's a mistake to use individual bad experiences to generalise. There are very good reasons why people, and not just composers, sometimes work on a project for less, sometimes a lot less, than full commercial rates.


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## gtrwll (Jul 16, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> If a composer is wo
> 
> Then give the composer a big percentage of profits if the project succeeds. I know composers who take gross points on the backend for reduced front end creative fees when projects have budget constraints.



A profit-share on top of a smaller license fee could be a good deal to the composer if the game is really successful, but it should be considered that a roughly estimated 70% of all games do not break even. Probably higher when considering only indie games.


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 16, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> It's probably good advice too :-/.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If an indie developer risks two plus years of his life for a project that probably leads to nothing why should a composer act like he is his doting rich parent donating effort and time for less than reasonable pay all so the developer gets his small project completed? I think not!!! I recommend the developer simply uses his budget for non-exclusive music library cues or give the composer a big piece of his backend to justify a reduction in upfront pay.


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 16, 2020)

RonOrchComp said:


> My bet is _NoOneKnowsAnything_ pmd the op offering his services, and is trying to ixnay the competition by telling everyone they shouldn't do the job
> 
> 100 per min is good for an indie game, bad for a major release. Id say go for it. The money and the addition to the resume is only a good thing.


Dude, you are clueless. I would never work for $500 a minute let alone $50. You have lost your mind 🤯 Low budget projects mean nothing on a resume. Been there done that, but feel free to work for crumbs. I won’t have anything to do with this project nor will I contact the OP.


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 16, 2020)

Henu said:


> As a game composer (and also sometimes a music supervisor/director) I've been in this situation on the both sides of the table and there are very easy solutions where you don't need to raise the budget.
> 
> Simply put, you shouldn't need that much music, period. The average player is only getting confused with that much of different songs, and in the end the effect you're seeking for turns against itself. What you should do is either...
> 
> ...


Well said ☝️👍


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## MartinH. (Jul 16, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> If an indie developer risks two plus years of his life for a project that probably leads to nothing why should a composer act like he is his doting rich parent donating effort and time for less than reasonable pay all so the developer gets his small project completed? I think not!!! I recommend the developer simply uses his budget for non-exclusive music library cues or give the composer a big piece of his backend to justify a reduction in upfront pay.



I don't disagree with your point of view at all, just trying to add some perspective to the big picture issues of that particular industry.


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 16, 2020)

Rory said:


> In the context of filmmaking in New York, which I have a fair amount of experience with, every word of that is out of touch with reality and factually incorrect. The one thing that's clear is that your use of the word insulting means that there is zero prospect of you working on a low budget project or of even being approached to work on one.


I’ve worked on NYC indie films with huge A-list actors and got paid next to nothing. The credits meant nothing, the movies went no where, I’ll never do that again. I know a few that do NYC indie films and get $15,000-$20,000 for about 30-40 minutes of music so it’s not all bad, but too much of it pays nothing or close to nothing.


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## Rory (Jul 16, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> I’ve worked on NYC indie films with huge A-list actors and got paid next to nothing.



Lord knows how you got yourself into that situation. That's not what I'm talking about and you know it. You are a very cynical, bitter guy. Every second word from you is "exploitative", "insulting", etc. Luckily, not everyone is as soured as you are.


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 16, 2020)

Brian99 said:


> Cool, then don't. But how about letting everybody else make their own decision.


I’m simply sharing knowledge for free. You’re welcome 😇 Anyone can happily work for any price they want or for free if it suits them. I’m not opposing anyone’s business.


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 16, 2020)

Rory said:


> Lord knows how you got yourself into that situation. That's not what I'm talking about and you know it. You are a very cynical, bitter guy. Every second word from you is "exploitative", "insulting", etc. Luckily, not everyone is as soured as you are.


I’m not soured. I’m experienced. There are honorable people in the world, those are not the ones I’m talking about. I’m simply sharing knowledge and experience for free. The more you experience in life the more you will understand. Sharing positive experiences does not help people be aware of bad ones. You have a bad mindset.


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## José Herring (Jul 16, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> I’ve worked on NYC indie films with huge A-list actors and got paid next to nothing. The credits meant nothing, the movies went no where, I’ll never do that again. I know a few that do NYC indie films and get $15,000-$20,000 for about 30-40 minutes of music so it’s not all bad, but too much of it pays nothing or close to nothing.


I'm with you on that one bro'da. I did the same thing in NYC when I got started. They never paid shit and it was amazing to me how little those kinds of projects actually did. Never fully understood the film industry in NYC. But, considering that Weinstein was king of the city back then, it makes sense that we'd get [email protected]#cked.


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## Rory (Jul 16, 2020)

How did we get from a guy self-funding a low budget language game to Harvey Weinstein, "huge A-list actors" and getting screwed by fast-talking feature film producers? The fact that Weinstein, and probably others, made a living, in part, by screwing people is reasonably well-documented at this point. What any of this has to do with the subject is a little less clear


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## José Herring (Jul 16, 2020)

Rory said:


> How did we get from a guy self-funding a low budget language game to Harvey Weinstein, "huge A-list actors" and getting screwed by fast-talking feature film producers? The fact that Weinstein, and probably others, made a living, in part, by screwing people is reasonably well-documented at this point. What any of this has to do with the subject is a little less clear


It's my bad, I'm not following the logic of the thread. This one has gone into Dramazone territory for me. I'm just agreeing with what he wrote here. I've had a similar experience in NYC.

Carry on.


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 16, 2020)

Rory said:


> How did we get from a guy self-funding a low budget language game to Harvey Weinstein, "huge A-list actors" and getting screwed by fast-talking feature film producers? The fact that Weinstein, and probably others, made a living, in part, by screwing people is reasonably well-documented at this point. What any of this has to do with the subject is a little less clear


What are you the thought police? Let people express themselves and share their experiences. He did nothing wrong. Don’t be an ungrateful person when others open up and share. Every thread 🧵 winds and weaves in different directions, let it flow, bro...


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## Rory (Jul 16, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> What are you the thought police? Let people express themselves and share their experiences. He did nothing wrong. Don’t be an ungrateful person when others open up and share. Every thread 🧵 winds and weaves in different directions, let it flow, bro...



Apparently you also lack a sense of humour. By the way, as you're well aware, you're the one who started going on about "huge A-list actors"


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 16, 2020)

Rory said:


> Apparently you also lack a sense of humour. By the way, as you're well aware, you're the one who started going on about "huge A-list actors"


The problem is I don’t know what anyone makes but the biggest composers other than a few colleagues, but rarely do people talk about this topic. I have no problem with the OP, he’s probably a nice guy who doesn’t know so he’s putting out there what he wants and how much he can afford, nothing wrong with that. But there are too many people in the industry that can pay a lot more than they do and that’s the problem as they try to lowball people. It happens to big time actors too, Robin Williams got $100,000 for Aladdin, Disney said it was this little animation project and blamo it was a monster smash hit. It’s not like just composers get taken advantage of in Hollywood, that’s an ole tale. Just trying to enlighten others. If someone knows they ought to get paid more but for there own reasons agrees to much less that’s their choice, it’s a free world. I just want other people to be more informed. I wish there was a composer’s union as it would secure minimum rates and fees which is exactly the kind of protection composers need who aren’t big time.


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## MartinH. (Jul 16, 2020)

Since the thread already got its own spinoff, I have a question: Is it really common to charge for composing by the minute of music, regardless of style? I don't work in the music/audio field, but in my freelance work I'm used to thinking about a realistic hourly wage and making my estimates based on that. In other words... I wouldn't charge the same thing for 1 minute orchestral music as for 1 minute of ambient drones. Is that an unusual approach for composers?


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## Tice (Jul 16, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> Since the thread already got its own spinoff, I have a question: Is it really common to charge for composing by the minute of music, regardless of style? I don't work in the music/audio field, but in my freelance work I'm used to thinking about a realistic hourly wage and making my estimates based on that. In other words... I wouldn't charge the same thing for 1 minute orchestral music as for 1 minute of ambient drones. Is that an unusual approach for composers?


Rates in music are a very amorphous thing. It's a ballancing act between the available budget of your employer and the time you think you're going to spend on it. And whatever math or reasoning you use to get to that ballance is not super important. And that doesn't even take into account what you feel the end result is worth in terms of it's artistic quality, nor your ability to 'get butts in seats'. It's... complicated.


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 16, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> Since the thread already got its own spinoff, I have a question: Is it really common to charge for composing by the minute of music, regardless of style? I don't work in the music/audio field, but in my freelance work I'm used to thinking about a realistic hourly wage and making my estimates based on that. In other words... I wouldn't charge the same thing for 1 minute orchestral music as for 1 minute of ambient drones. Is that an unusual approach for composers?


I don’t think composers charge by the minute, but I think it could be part of the calculation. For example, when I was working on 30 minute shows for the networks I knew there could not be more than 22 minutes and they wanted wall to wall. When I composed the score for 60 minute shows for CBS again it was most likely gonna be wall to wall so around 42-44 minutes tops. It’s not like it says in any deal memo or contract one gets paid by the minute, it’s just another way to analyze what your fees should be if one doesn’t think they are being paid reasonably well. A big budget movie may pay $50,000 to $100,000 for a two minute trailer cue, but that’s not easy biz to get. If one writes the main title theme for a weekday prime time sitcom on a major network you could get $8,000 an episode just for the main title theme, which doesn’t include any underscoring, but those gigs notoriously go to top composers like Mike Post. It’s simply another way to think about what rate one might want to charge if they want a lot of music or don’t want to pay you 2-5% of the production budget. I had a producer who wanted to hire me and create 4 hours of original music based on a $3,500,000 production budget (so he claims). Anyway, I told him I wanted $250,000. He wanted to pay me $30,000, I said good luck with that. I told him to save his money and use non-exclusive royalty free music library cues, he said he can’t do that he needs original music. I said not from me. Never spoke to him again. He kept trying to contact me but I am not interested in mind game negotiations when someone lowballs that much.


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## chillbot (Jul 16, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> Since the thread already got its own spinoff, I have a question: Is it really common to charge for composing by the minute of music, regardless of style? I don't work in the music/audio field, but in my freelance work I'm used to thinking about a realistic hourly wage and making my estimates based on that. In other words... I wouldn't charge the same thing for 1 minute orchestral music as for 1 minute of ambient drones. Is that an unusual approach for composers?


+1 to @Tice

You have a fair point, if a project is all ambient drones I would certainly consider the time it would take and could do it for significantly less. Usually it's a mix... personally when I do this I like to think of the rate per minute as the rate for what it takes to write the minutes of music that are roughly 8/10 on a difficulty scale. Then, if you get a few pieces that are just drones or pads (2/10) it's a bonus, gives you a breather. And if you have to push yourself a bit harder for a few minutes (10/10) it's ok.



NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> I don’t think composers charge by the minute


For 20 years I've only charged by the minute.


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## Rory (Jul 16, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> Since the thread already got its own spinoff, I have a question: Is it really common to charge for composing by the minute of music, regardless of style? I don't work in the music/audio field, but in my freelance work I'm used to thinking about a realistic hourly wage and making my estimates based on that. In other words... I wouldn't charge the same thing for 1 minute orchestral music as for 1 minute of ambient drones. Is that an unusual approach for composers?



I think that like legal representation, the fee is a combination of hourly expectation and results, influenced by reputation.

In filmmaking, discussions like this are a dime a dozen. However, I have rarely seen as extreme a view as I've seen in this thread, and I think that it was a good idea to spin it off. I think that it turned into a rant that does not reflect reality.

I've laid out a real life, concrete situation in the original thread in which I'm personally involved. Quite happy to have a rational discussion about it: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/wanted-music-composer-for-nintendoish-rpg-that-teaches-japanese.95945/post-4600972

But it won't happen. This thread is now "where the drama is"


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## classified_the_x (Jul 16, 2020)

I read somewhere else that getting U$5000 for 10 tracks, for a begginner in licensing is a mere illusion these days. Maybe someone gets 4 tracks for U$200 each upfront in a random library but U$4000 in total is good money tbh... Also consider that many of us don't live in the US and the dollar is really valued. U$200 is minimum wage in some places.


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## asherpope (Jul 17, 2020)

I'm seeing a lot of advocating the use of royalty free music as a means to increase composer fees across the board in this thread. Seems fairly counter intuitive to me


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## MartinH. (Jul 17, 2020)

Thanks a lot for the replies guys, very interesting!


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 17, 2020)

Rory said:


> I think that like legal representation, the fee is a combination of hourly expectation and results, influenced by reputation.
> 
> In filmmaking, discussions like this are a dime a dozen. However, I have rarely seen as extreme a view as I've seen in this thread, and I think that it was a good idea to spin it off. I think that it turned into a rant that does not reflect reality.
> 
> ...


Love to check out your IMDbPro page so I can see all your experience. Now it makes sense why you react the way you do, exploiting new composers and aspiring composers isn’t cool. My entire thread is meant to help and enlighten fellow professionals and aspiring composers not hobbyists and especially not dishonorable people looking to take advantage of composers.


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## Rory (Jul 17, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> Love to check out your IMDbPro page so I can see all your experience.



Now you’re just acting like a petulant child


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 17, 2020)

Rory said:


> Now you’re just acting like a petulant child


Don’t project onto others who you are. You are not paying me to be your therapist. You’re only embarrassing yourself.


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## Rory (Jul 17, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> Don’t project onto others who you are. You are not paying me to be your therapist.



Man, you’re hilarious


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## EgM (Jul 17, 2020)

Hmm, so many people claiming they did this and that, all with anonymous profiles.


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 17, 2020)

EgM said:


> Hmm, so many people claiming they did this and that, all with anonymous profiles.


The internet is unforgiving, so I wouldn’t speak my mind if it were any other way. Way it goes...

Listened to Epiphany, Forest at night, Terror in the crypt.


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## classified_the_x (Jul 17, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> Love to check out your IMDbPro page so I can see all your experience. Now it makes sense why you react the way you do, exploiting new composers and aspiring composers isn’t cool. My entire thread is meant to help and enlighten fellow professionals and aspiring composers not hobbyists and especially not dishonorable people looking to take advantage of composers.



I had 2 startups, one of them is active... Paying coders and programmers wasn't easy for me, I had to push them a lot to make ends meet, and yes, they got what they could from me. So the guy is making a game and said he has a limited budget. He's paying a really decent sum that many composing houses won't pay... You said you get 30k for a movie and told the director to forget you, 30k is about what a A-list composer would get in my country for a A movie... 

you might be successful but you're not living the young striving musician challenges... Yes, we need more rights for composers, the best idea IMO would be to restrict or limit the usage of songs. Probably there's a good argument against that, but if songs couldn't be used ad infinitum more opportunities would exist for us all. Libraries got saturated and supply outpaced demand. And the same stuff keeps getting used.


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## Mike Greene (Jul 17, 2020)

EgM said:


> Hmm, so many people claiming they did this and that, all with anonymous profiles.





NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> The internet is unforgiving, so I wouldn’t speak my mind if it were any other way. Way it goes...


In light of the new rules I posted last week, you're literally taunting me with that statement. So ...


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## JoelS (Jul 17, 2020)

I'm pretty firmly of the opinion that if composers all started setting a $500/min floor regardless of context, and recommend that those who can't afford that fee go use RF libraries, you're just training people to not bother working with an actual composer again. Companies like Epidemic and Artlist are aggressively marketing to content creators these days. If you want young content creators to ponder 'I can pay $500 for a custom minute of music or $19/month for unlimited music and SFX from a huge library,' this seems like a question they will not ponder long. And I don't think they will look back, either.

I'll also say that the project for which I have received the best paychecks of my career came about because I helped an indie game developer out with my 'discount' rate ($100/track). He wanted five tracks for an idea he had. It took me a couple days to compose them. A year later he came back to me and told me he grew that idea into a full game, and hired me for a much larger score, at a similar rate. That game got on the Nintendo Switch, and did really well for him. A year after that, he came back to me again with plans for a sequel, and due to the success of the first game, a vastly larger budget which he has been very generous with. It's been creatively fulfilling and very financially rewarding for me. It enabled me to hire a few soloists to play on various tracks, which he covered in his budget instead of taking money from mine.

I don't feel I was exploited, or subsequently disrespected, for charging him a low rate years ago when he had no money and was just starting out. It's resulted in a strong relationship that is likely to continue on to additional games in the future. It enabled me to hire live human musicians to play on tracks. If I had initially told him to go source his music from RF tracks, none of that would have happened.

The case may be that this was a million-to-one rarity, a lottery win, and I would not suggest anyone count on an indie developer who has no budget hitting it big, but it does happen. Good relationships can arise and even if it doesn't result in a bolt from the blue; there aren't a whole lot of bad things that come out of having good relationships with creative people whose work you admire.

While I definitely think people should value their work and time, I also think there is plenty of room to weigh the context of the situation before imposing some blanket floor on what you charge. If I am going to accept a low fee per track (I charge per track, not per minute, generally) it is because I either like the project, like the developer, or see some other merit in working with that person. 

My path to becoming a professional composer did not go through any of the usual channels that I most often see other professional composers talk about. I was very much an outsider to anything involving the music industry, and still am. I like helping other outsiders find a way to make their creative aspirations come true. This leads me to be very flexible with my rates for individuals who want my music but don't yet have the means to pay 'professional' rates.

I think context matters a lot, and situations can be navigated on a case by case basis regarding what you should charge a particular client.


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## gtrwll (Jul 17, 2020)

JoelS said:


> I'm pretty firmly of the opinion that if composers all started setting a $500/min floor regardless of context, and recommend that those who can't afford that fee go use RF libraries, you're just training people to not bother working with an actual composer again. Companies like Epidemic and Artlist are aggressively marketing to content creators these days. If you want young content creators to ponder 'I can pay $500 for a custom minute of music or $19/month for unlimited music and SFX from a huge library,' this seems like a question they will not ponder long. And I don't think they will look back, either.
> 
> I'll also say that the project for which I have received the best paychecks of my career came about because I helped an indie game developer out with my 'discount' rate ($100/track). He wanted five tracks for an idea he had. It took me a couple days to compose them. A year later he came back to me and told me he grew that idea into a full game, and hired me for a much larger score, at a similar rate. That game got on the Nintendo Switch, and did really well for him. A year after that, he came back to me again with plans for a sequel, and due to the success of the first game, a vastly larger budget which he has been very generous with. It's been creatively fulfilling and very financially rewarding for me. It enabled me to hire a few soloists to play on various tracks, which he covered in his budget instead of taking money from mine.
> 
> ...



This is a great post, thanks for sharing! Glad to hear the initial investment panned out good.


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## EgM (Jul 17, 2020)

JoelS said:


> I'm pretty firmly of the opinion that if composers all started setting a $500/min floor regardless of context, and recommend that those who can't afford that fee go use RF libraries, you're just training people to not bother working with an actual composer again. Companies like Epidemic and Artlist are aggressively marketing to content creators these days. If you want young content creators to ponder 'I can pay $500 for a custom minute of music or $19/month for unlimited music and SFX from a huge library,' this seems like a question they will not ponder long. And I don't think they will look back, either.
> 
> I'll also say that the project for which I have received the best paychecks of my career came about because I helped an indie game developer out with my 'discount' rate ($100/track). He wanted five tracks for an idea he had. It took me a couple days to compose them. A year later he came back to me and told me he grew that idea into a full game, and hired me for a much larger score, at a similar rate. That game got on the Nintendo Switch, and did really well for him. A year after that, he came back to me again with plans for a sequel, and due to the success of the first game, a vastly larger budget which he has been very generous with. It's been creatively fulfilling and very financially rewarding for me. It enabled me to hire a few soloists to play on various tracks, which he covered in his budget instead of taking money from mine.
> 
> ...



Great post. I also helped like... 4 or 5 indie developers with that same mindset, even composed for nothing pending kickstarter success. I don't charge per minute either, I generally ask a table of the songs needed, the style of songs, genre (orchestrated, electronic, retro) then I evaluate per song how many hours I will need to make them. If the deadline is steep, I will most likely raise the price significantly.

Like you, I have to evaluate a lot before getting involved, I have to like the project, the team.

I haven't won the composer lottery yet though :D


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## jonnybutter (Jul 17, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> I’ve done this exact game, usually it gets you in the door but they won’t respect you for working so cheaply and any future raise is basically continuing the initial insulting offer. Rarely ever will getting the credits for these low budget projects matter at all in helping to propel your career.



This is right. If you want to work for nothing to 'get your foot in the door', your foot will mostly likely stay right there: in the door. There was a time when producers and others would 'bring you along' as you learned, but that is not so common anymore. Now, _everybody_ is movie or tv producer, and anything they can get for free or almost free they're going to just factor into the budget. They'll certainly pay a DP, and they'll pay the crew. But they want music for free. Don't give it to them!


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## Andrew Aversa (Jul 17, 2020)

Agreed with JoelS. Context matters. If you are doing it to build a relationship with someone that has a low budget it could very well be worth it. There are more forms of compensation than upfront money; in fact, even the original offer specifically talked about backend, which in the case of games can get very high indeed.


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## jonnybutter (Jul 17, 2020)

zircon_st said:


> Agreed with JoelS. Context matters. If you are doing it to build a relationship with someone that has a low budget it could very well be worth it. There are more forms of compensation than upfront money; in fact, even the original offer specifically talked about backend, which in the case of games can get very high indeed.



I think we're not all talking about the things.

For first projects and the like, 'building a relationship' doesn't work very well in the movie business if it means working for free. Composers are routinely underpaid/unpaid in the US, particularly for 'indy' or festival-type movies and it gets you nowhere, as a rule. And even if you score something for nothing and the result gets a big distribution deal and everybody loves your music, you can't assume that: a.) they will pay you more because the project you did for nothing hit, even if they said they would, or b.) that they will hire you for the next, larger-budget project, or c.) that if they *do* hire you for the next project, that they won't low ball you again. That's not cynical, that's the way it is. It's a shitty situation. Sometimes it's not even the person you thought you were building a relationship with who is making those decisions.

I don't have experience in games so much, but have heard bad stories. But, YMMV. I agree with whoever said that the person who posted the original ad might be asking for too much and not realize it. But s/he should be _made_ to realize it (preferably in a nice way!). There is no reason composers should work for nothing. If I'm going to work for nothing, I'll write to please myself.

My experience is that you work with or adjacent to the same people (not necessarily the same companies) over and over, and those few connections can be your whole career. If somebody wants to pay you nothing to start, chances are they will always want to pay you nothing. I hope it's different in Europe or other places, but that's my experience in the US. If you think about it, it makes sense psychologically. People almost never want to pay for something they used to get for free.


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## Andrew Aversa (Jul 17, 2020)

I have plenty of experience in games and, generally speaking, indie developers are far more open to things like revenue shares than in TV or film. If you are going to work for a low rate or free, then this obviously would be part of the package. Look at it this way: by working on a project under those conditions, you're essentially an investor. Like with any investment, you would weigh the benefits and risks. If it seems like a shoddy product with little chance of success, don't invest.

That said, I agree that asking for 50+ tracks is excessive simply due to the amount of work involved for any given project.


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## JoelS (Jul 17, 2020)

jonnybutter said:


> I think we're talking about different things.


This is the crux of the matter, though, isn't it? There is a really, really vast range of 'people who need music for their productions' who might be looking to hire a composer. You could justifiably feel ripped off by a production company making a feature film that will get a theatrical release who lowballs you... but at the same time, there are YouTube creators building up a channel, or podcast creators who want music, or some guy working alone on a game idea, and they are going to have whatever budget is at their personal disposal, and that's it.

Earlier this year, I scored a short comedy film which amounted to about six-seven minutes of music for $200. I've known the filmmaker for a few years now. He found me initially in an RF library, and liked my music enough to seek me out personally for the purpose of directly licensing music non-exclusively from me. To be clear, I composed this year's score specifically for his movie. It would be useless as RF music anyway, it was very much composed to the picture. He finances his films out of his own pocket, and unless he's lying to me for the purpose of specifically ripping me off, he doesn't have a ton of money. I like him, I like his films. He submitted the film we worked on this year to Cannes. If he could have afforded more, he would have paid me more. I trust him. I like having a working relationship with him, so I don't mind respecting his budget even though my work and time are arguably worth more than that in a strictly monetary evaluation.

... and I'd surely rather have him come to me than go to a subscription site online to score his films. 

It pains me when I see awesome filmmakers on YT like Peter McKinnon and Josh Yohe shilling Epidemic and Artlist. I don't want to trash those companies or composers who work for them, but when grade-A talent like those filmmakers I mentioned are not only using subscription sites to score their videos, but also using their considerable reach and influence to teach new young filmmakers following them that the way to go is to just subscribe to an 'unlimited music buffet' site, that is not good for composers!

These highly individualistic, distinctive, cutting-edge, popular filmmakers are using subscription music sites instead of human composers that could make them custom music. Hundreds of thousands of their followers are being told 'just go to a sub site and you'll get all the music you need!' rather than 'find a creative composer who's an artist like you to work with you and enhance your creative vision.'

To me, that is a big problem, and there are a lot of angles to look at it from including that some composers are making money from such sites, and I can't dismiss their strategy for making a living either.

That's why I like to build relationships with people who value the creative skills I can bring to their production, and sometimes choose to work with them at rates that they can afford.

It would be a different story if I was working for a production that I knew had a large budget, and was simply deciding they would allocate very little of it to music.


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## jonnybutter (Jul 17, 2020)

JoelS said:


> I'd surely rather have him come to me than go to a subscription site online to score his films.



Why, though? If it's because doing his short film for $200 was fun for you, then that's a good reason. I think it enforces a bad precedent, but it's not really the end of the world. But if you did it because you think post-scored film is better than film scored with library music, why is it _your_ responsibility to uphold that? Of course it's usually better! But why is that our (composers') problem? If film makers can't even see what the difference is, I (for one) am skeptical about working for them anyway - they aren't going to appreciate what you do, and they obviously don't know much about their own frigging art form. 

If there's a project that I LOVE, and the odds of it making money for anyone are slim, I will work on it just for love. $0. But for some wannabe making trash who pays the grip and shooter but not the composer? Forget it.


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## JoelS (Jul 17, 2020)

jonnybutter said:


> Why, though? If it's because doing his short film for $200 was fun for you, then that's a good reason.
> ...
> If film makers can't even see what the difference is, I (for one) am skeptical about working for them anyway


Because it was a fun challenge for me musically, and I like the filmmaker and his sensibility. And he does recognize the benefit of a custom score over stock music, and appreciated my work.

There are a lot of very creative people out there in the world who do not have much money at their disposal. For me, that does not invalidate them as someone worth my time and effort.

I would not have a career in music if I'd set a hard and fast minimum rate anywhere near $500/min, especially early on. It also would have kept me from forming my best professional relationships.

On a personal level, I will also never forget the struggles I have gone through to establish a career based on my creative work. It hasn't come easily. When I meet game developers or filmmakers who are similarly struggling to find success, if I believe in their vision, I'm glad to help them realize it... even at a discount rate.


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## asherpope (Jul 17, 2020)

I often wonder if these staunch advocates of big composer fees regardless of the project (seems like self funded Indies are viewed as exactly the same as Hollywood studio tentpoles for some reason) are actually working on any projects at all. I can't imagine many jobs meeting their high expectations these days


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## jonnybutter (Jul 18, 2020)

asherpope said:


> I often wonder if these staunch advocates of big composer fees regardless of the project (seems like self funded Indies are viewed as exactly the same as Hollywood studio tentpoles for some reason) are actually working on any projects at all. I can't imagine many jobs meeting their high expectations these days



I'm not as rigid as the guy who has to have $500 per finished minute, but there has to be a limit somewhere. I don't write what other people want me to write just for fun (unless it really *is* fun). Why should I?


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## davidanthony (Jul 18, 2020)

jonnybutter said:


> I don't write what other people want me to write just for fun (unless it really *is* fun). Why should I?



I don't think anyone's advocating for you doing things for free or for fun as a policy, but instead suggesting that working for "free" in terms of not receiving any up-front monetary compensation does not automatically mean it's a zero value transaction, so it's a good idea to assess each opportunity on a case-by-case basis to see if there's any value lurking beyond the hard cash (with relationship & portfolio development being the primary non-monetary value adds).

In my opinion, setting a rate / a walkaway $ number for creative work before even evaluating a project doesn't make much sense. First, because it generally discourages development and refinement of an important component of business acumen (the ability to identify and assign value to opportunities). Second, it can result in premature abandonment of projects that could actually turn out to be quite lucrative down the line.

To be clear, I'm definitely not encouraging the opposite (find a way to do any project at any price!) I'm just agreeing it's important to keep an open mind. In my experience most people who adopt rigid compensation policies are doing so less as a result of shrewd financial calculations and more because they're clinging to legacy or trying to eliminate potentially uncomfortable situations like a tough negotiation or the feeling of realizing you've speculated incorrectly when something doesn't pan out. I'd argue that this has turned into completely the wrong business/industry for anyone who is worried about those things.

And this is going to be a less popular opinion, but... I would also argue that if someone has a long history of working for reduced rates and things generally not panning out, then there's a decent chance the issue lies with them (either the quality of the work is not competitive, the work is competitive but there's no market for it, or they're really bad at identifying quality partners/opportunities). Adopting a fixed $/minute rate won't really change any of those things.


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## classified_the_x (Jul 18, 2020)

davidanthony said:


> I don't think anyone's advocating for you doing things for free or for fun as a policy, but instead suggesting that working for "free" in terms of not receiving any up-front monetary compensation does not automatically mean it's a zero value transaction, so it's a good idea to assess each opportunity on a case-by-case basis to see if there's any value lurking beyond the hard cash (with relationship & portfolio development being the primary non-monetary value adds).
> 
> In my opinion, setting a rate / a walkaway $ number for creative work before even evaluating a project doesn't make much sense. First, because it generally discourages development and refinement of an important component of business acumen (the ability to identify and assign value to opportunities). Second, it can result in premature abandonment of projects that could actually turn out to be quite lucrative down the line.
> 
> ...



One thing my coders / programmers wouldn't do is work before pay was done. The situation with programming is the exact opposite of music though, there are more nowadays, but a general shortage exists.

The fact that ppl do 100s of music to get $1000 or $2000 from royalty free websites in 2 years, when lucky, is something we can not ignore. It's a freelance job, doesn't mean it has to be free, but doesn't mean 1. we have to take it 2. we have to complain about it


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## jonnybutter (Jul 18, 2020)

davidanthony said:


> In my opinion, setting a rate / a walkaway $ number for creative work before even evaluating a project doesn't make much sense. First, because it generally discourages development and refinement of an important component of business acumen (the ability to identify and assign value to opportunities). Second, it can result in premature abandonment of projects that could actually turn out to be quite lucrative down the line.



You are responding to me, and I didn't say anything about walking away from a project without evaluating it or having a rigid walkaway number. However, if someone is promising value 'down the line' on a movie or video project, or suggesting it's going to be great for my portfolio, I tend to be very skeptical. I have a short history of being taken advantage of and 'things not working out', but a long history of hearing similar things happening to others. 

There comes a point when it's not worth it to do a project. Don't lecture others about what that point is for *them*.


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## davidanthony (Jul 18, 2020)

jonnybutter said:


> You are responding to me, and I didn't say anything about walking away from a project without evaluating it or having a rigid walkaway number. However, if someone is promising value 'down the line' on a movie or video project, or suggesting it's going to be great for my portfolio, I tend to be very skeptical. I have a short history of being taken advantage of and 'things not working out', but a long history of hearing similar things happening to others.
> 
> There comes a point when it's not worth it to do a project. Don't lecture others about what that point is for *them*.



I responded to you because you asked a question and I tried to answer it.

That said, no one is saying you or anyone else can't have a point where it's not worth it to do a project. If that's what you got from my post, I'd encourage you to re-read it.

My point is that making a pre-determination of what a walkaway point is for any project before even evaluating it is not automatically the best proposition, can actually carry more negative consequences than positive, and generally does not make sense to promote as general guidance.

Very few people are so well established to the point that having a conversation / exploring a project will actually cost them money.


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## jonnybutter (Jul 18, 2020)

davidanthony said:


> I responded to you because you asked a question and I tried to answer it.
> 
> That said, no one is saying you or anyone else can't have a point where it's not worth it to do a project. If that's what you got from my post, I'd encourage you to re-read it.
> 
> ...




I would guess that most readers worked out that mine was a rhetorical question. Whatever. The upshot is that us losers who foolishly walk away from all the great you-might-get-paid-down-the-road opportunities are just leaving _more for you_. Enjoy.


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## davidanthony (Jul 18, 2020)

jonnybutter said:


> I would guess that most readers worked out that mine was a rhetorical question. Whatever. The upshot is that us losers who foolishly walk away from all the great you-might-get-paid-down-the-road opportunities are just leaving _more for you_. Enjoy.



I was just sharing an opinion. No reason to get so down on yourself. It'll all work out in the end. Good luck.


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## AlexRuger (Jul 24, 2020)

JoelS said:


> I'm pretty firmly of the opinion that if composers all started setting a $500/min floor regardless of context, and recommend that those who can't afford that fee go use RF libraries, you're just training people to not bother working with an actual composer again.



Pre-fucking-cisely. Came to this thread to make this exact point.

The gig in question was being completely reasonable. Sure, you might’ve been able to haggle them up a tad from $50/minute, but considering the game’s requirements and the fact that it’s a new name in the educational domain (not exactly a place where people go to get rich), they really seemed like they were just trying their best to at least pay a composer decently for their time. Their heart seemed to be in a good place, but as far as I can tell, people screaming about “give me $500/minute or give me death!” chased them off.

I’ve worked on games where I’ve gotten less than $50/minute, the highest I’ve received is $3,000/minute (!!!), and lots of stuff in between. What everyone complaining about a company that just isn’t big yet, but that has its heart in the right place, doesn’t get is that this career is nothing if not two things:
1) Built on relationships
2) Slooooow

The company here had a solidly-built product in a niche but perhaps popular market. Sure, go a little lower than you’d like to establish the relationship, but you can more or less guarantee that when they come back to you, you’ll be able to negotiate a little higher. And later on down the line they’ll be doing better and come back to you again, and you can negotiate a little higher again. And then they recommend you to another game dev, and so on and so on.

They’re also small enough that you can probably negotiate holding onto your rights. How many non-exclusive libraries pay you $50/minute or more to write music that you own? None. Treat it like that and then exploit the music elsewhere for more cash.

Sure, there’s a balance here. You can’t go too insanely low. But in the world of royalty-free libraries, $50 being offered by a new and small company is, IMO, acceptable, at least if you’re coming at it from the long view.

It’s worth noting that educational companies are constantly developing new content and products. Nearly every “bread and butter” gig I’ve had has been educational, and over time they can pay quite well, and tend to be full of nice folks who encourage fun and interesting music to boot.

Some people in this thread need to think a little more creatively about where their money is coming from, think about context, and focus more on creating several stable — albeit smaller than you’d like — streams of income, rather than (lol, seriously?) complaining about an educational startup not paying remotely close to what A-list composers get for tentpole IPs netting millions or even billions of dollars.

Oh, and if anyone wants to check out my IMDb (weird flexes going on in this thread, but okay), go right ahead.


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