# Sibelius + Wacom pad/pen (or SP) vs Staffpad vs NotateMe



## Elephant

OK Surface Pro 3 (and 4 ?) users - looking for some feedback !!
I am very hopeful that Steinberg's new app will be great and also suit my workflow. But, we don't know (at least I don't know) when it will be released, and also whether it will have tablet entry and editing. Following on from Muke Marino's thread in 2012 about Sib7, I would like to ask whether anyone has compared Sib8 to Staffpad on a SP3 ? If so, what are the pros and cons for each ?

Specifically I want to know about note entry with the stylus - is Sib8 better or worse than Staffpad ? I also believe Staffpad has the ability to enter chord symbols but not play them back ?

In Sib8 on a SP3, does that ribbon from the Sib7 desktop still appear or have they reverted to the Sib6 interface ? And also, as a new worksflow I am evaluating involves using chord symbols and the Realizing Chord Symbols" plugin in Sib; what is the exact sequence of steps in Sib8 from going from point A where you have a complete set of chord symbols on a blank staff entered wherever you like in the bar and having realized piano or guitar chords populated in the staff so that they play back, and point B where you have changed one or more chord symbols or added or deleted chord symbols, and have a fully realized set of piano or guitar chords ?

Has anyone developed a way of realizing the chord symbols as you enter them, without having to run what is effectively a batch process ?

'Scuse the detailed level of the feedback requested, but those of you who have used that Sib plugin will probably know what I am driving at !!

Many thanks all !!


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## wcreed51

We know that it won't have tablet entry and editing in its first release


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## FriFlo

wcreed51 said:


> We know that it won't have tablet entry and editing in its first release


That and more ... As I understand it, this new notation program is not very far from its first release and will in many ways not be as fully fledged in features as Sibelius is today. But it seems to become way more intelligent than Sibelius already is in automatic adjustments of layout, spacing and engraving rules etc. I think I am gonna buy it just for the cause of supporting Spreadburrys work as I just despise Avid and what they did I with Sibelius and the team. But I also think I am going to continue to use Sibelius for real work with Version one of this program, since Daniel Spreadburry himself suggested it wouldn't be possible to release a program of that depth with version one. This is one of my most anticipated releases though!


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## Elephant

Using both in a kind of transition process is a distinct possibility for me too. But I am really keen to get some feedback on Sib8 vs Staffpad - any takers ?


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## Elephant

Are there any Sib8 users on a Surface Pro 3 out there at all ?!!


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## jamwerks

From what I saw on a video, except for the Surface Pro features, there weren't enough novelties to warent upgrading from 7.5 to 8.

So you may not find (hardly) anybody here who actually works in Sibelius 8!?


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## FriFlo

Actually, there is quite a lot new stuff in Sibelius 8 for touch screen users, that would be interesting for surface 3/4 users. Indeed, I myself think about buying a surface at some point for notation purposes. But unfortunately they did not a great job in showing you these features in detail (like writing with a pen in the score). Could be lots of useless features or really cool ... I would also like someone else buy a surface3 and Sibelius 8 and tell us all about it!


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## Elephant

FriFlo said:


> Actually, there is quite a lot new stuff in Sibelius 8 for touch screen users, that would be interesting for surface 3/4 users.



Exactly, that's why I would have thought the notation folks here would have jumped at Sib8/SP3or4 ....... - maybe Avid need a gentle prod to do some decent marketing for Sib8 ...... 

EDIT http://www.sibeliusblog.com/news/sibelius-8-is-here/ 
reading the comments at the bottom, the tablet input on Sib8 does not allow you to draw notes on the screen like Staffpad, or Notateme,, just to use the pen as a mouse, unless someone knows differently. As a result of this, and the evident dearth of Sib8 users here (or at least any willing to respond ), I am going to change the title of the thread from the original title of Sibelius 8 vs Staffpad, to Sibelius + Wacom pad/pen (or SP) vs Staffpad ns NotateMe.


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## FriFlo

I agree! They poorly presented the new features. But often times that means there is not as much to it, as it may seem. Some flashy headlines and not as much substance as you might hope. Avid has moved to the subscription mode, so they can supposedly add features when they are ready. Nice on paper! But I actually prefer knowing what I pay for with a new version. That way I can let money talk: "I don't need those, I would have hoped for this or that ... do better with the next upgrade."
Note input by pen would be a fine addition to Sibelius IMO, but actually, the input by keyboard and number pad is faster, I believe. Sibelius is pretty far with common notations. The pen would allow users to really do some graphic additions, like you would need them for a horror score or any other kind of unconventional notation. However, those are not marketing relevant additions anymore at this point. I have more hope for Spreadburrys work, who recently presented his new program to actual publishers, to become the most versatile and quick program at some point.


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## Elephant

Well I just tried a Wacom pad and pen with Sib6 instead of the mouse, to enter notes. I found the pen almost unusable. Nearly resulted in a few high-velocity Wacom defenestrations. Back to the old rat I am afraid. Any other takers ?


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## almound

I feel your frustration when trying to find Sib8 users using the mobile feature. I don't feel the need, but should I ever need it ... I would rather give my new copy of Notion 5.2 a go (on an iPad). When I'm done, Notion will export a stem of the score into Studio One 3 for me (http://blog.presonus.com/index.php/2015/03/24/notion-5-1-for-studio-one-users/).


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## wcreed51

StaffPad for Windows 10 is released:
http://www.sibeliusblog.com/


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## tokatila

wcreed51 said:


> StaffPad for Windows 10 is released:
> http://www.sibeliusblog.com/



Aah... Just in time, only one more week when I'll get Surface Pro 4. Will post impressions then.


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## wcreed51

I'd be particularly interested in how the voice commands work.


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## stigc56

Elephant said:


> Are there any Sib8 users on a Surface Pro 3 out there at all ?!!


Hi bought. SP3 and Staffpad in april, have been using Sibelius and Finale for my living for many years. Staffpad takes sometime to get used to. It ist not that easy to write in a way that is recognized as musical notes. I sold the SP3 2 weeks ago and hope that Staffpad is avialable for iPad Pro, after all I'm on mac, and can't get used to the Windows interface.


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## dcoscina

stigc56 said:


> Hi bought. SP3 and Staffpad in april, have been using Sibelius and Finale for my living for many years. Staffpad takes sometime to get used to. It ist not that easy to write in a way that is recognized as musical notes. I sold the SP3 2 weeks ago and hope that Staffpad is avialable for iPad Pro, after all I'm on mac, and can't get used to the Windows interface.


I tried Staff Pad on the Surface and found it really a pain and slow to use. Prefer Notion for iPad to be honest. 

I'm passing on the iPad pro largely because it's overpriced and underpowered and doesn't have OSX which it should have to compete with the Surface in that price point.


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## Elephant

dcoscina said:


> I tried Staff Pad on the Surface and found it really a pain and slow to use. Prefer Notion for iPad to be honest.
> 
> I'm passing on the iPad pro largely because it's overpriced and underpowered and doesn't have OSX which it should have to compete with the Surface in that price point.



I'd be interested in how you handle note entry with Notion - do you use the handwriting upgrade and which stylus and iPad models have you found best ? 

Thanks !!


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## JimmyPoppa

Hi,

I also bought the SP3 and Staffpad. Mainly I went for it because, at about the same time, Sib. 8 came out with support for SP3. I got to try them out side by side.

As stigc56 and dcoscina said above, I found Staffpad a pain to work with. It's a great idea and I'm sure it will get better but it takes too much time to learn how to write in a way that it will recognize. Especially if you have to do a lot of big scores, which is my whole life.

The main thing for me is though is that, unlike stig, I am a long-time Sib. and PC user. The reason I went for the SP3 is that, since I type everything in via the QWERTY keyboard, I'm getting carpal tunnel like symptoms (really). It's gotten to the point that I'm in real pain.

The SP3 with Sib. 8 seems like it's really going to help with this. It's also much faster than Staffpad, you get notation immediately, auditory feedback as you go, etc. All the Sib. stuff.

So, for me, Surface Pro 3/4/n looks like my future.

Be Well,

Jimmy


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## Elephant

JimmyPoppa said:


> So, for me, Surface Pro 3/4/n looks like my future.
> 
> Be Well,
> 
> Jimmy



Hi Jimmy - that's really useful info. Thanks very much.


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## JimmyPoppa

Elephant,

You're quite welcome. Happy to answer any other questions. 

Just looked at your post again. 

FYI: Sib 8 looks and works exactly like 7/7.5. The difference is that it completely supports all the tablet stuff; re-sizing and moving the score with your fingers (Epic!!!!), touch pen of course, and all the other tablet features. A big thing I'm finding is the fact that you can orient the SP vertically or horizontally and the score will change it's orientation. If your score has lots of instruments, this is really helpful. So, it is the full version of Sib. as we know it with the added features that come with using a tablet.

Regarding note entry, Sib. is miles ahead of Staffpad (sorry guys). I was really excited when the videos for Staffpad came out but they still have a ways to go before you can use it the way they're advertising. They may get there but, by comparison with Sib, it's no contest. 

With Sib. you just choose the note value (either with the pen or with your opposite hand - it's touch sensitive!!!) and use the pen to touch the spot where you want the note to go. The note appears along with the sound of whatever instrument. You don't have to highlight a particular measure or anything else. Just touch where you want the note the way you would on paper. It's fantastic!

The other thing, as simplistic as this will sound, is because of the little kickstand thingy on the SP, you can fold it all the way back and, when you lay it on a desk or table, your score is in the exact position you would lay it if you had a tilted drafting table. Or, you can place it on a piano stand, either vertically or horizontally, and write directly on it that way.

One thing that I haven't really worked out well yet, is when I want to hold the SP in one hand and use the pen with the other (like if I'm outside or on a couch). There really is no good way to grip the thing. It's kind of large, smooth and a bit awkward for that. However, this is, by no means, a life threatening issue.

Also, if you are outside or there is really bright light, the screen is terrible. You just can't see at all.

I've never used the chord realization plug-in. Didn't even know there is one. Can't help you there.

So, sorry if I sound like an ad. I'm just giving my experience so far. Glad if it's helpful.

Be Well,

Jimmy


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## Elephant

Brilliant thanks ! I tried my pen again and my mouse is much faster for me for note selection. If I had a very slim numeric pad for the LH note value and accidental selection, that could help. Xkeys are a bit too thick - ideally laptop height keys on a very thin substrate is what I am looking for - 0.5" max. I could try a tablet with a custom app that sends midi and key commands, but I suspect a keypad will be better. Anyone have any suggestions on either front ?

BTW Jimmy, Avid have put PhotoScore Ultimate up on the Sib site - it comes with a version of NotateMe optimised for the SP3 apparently. Might be worth checking out .... 

Thanks to all sofar
E


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## dcoscina

Elephant said:


> I'd be interested in how you handle note entry with Notion - do you use the handwriting upgrade and which stylus and iPad models have you found best ?
> 
> Thanks !!


Hi there. At this point I'm faster with the keyboard method or direct note input. The drawing feature is in its infancy with notion and isn't terribly fast. As they develop it, I think it will become much better


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## JimmyPoppa

Elephant said:


> BTW Jimmy, Avid have put PhotoScore Ultimate up on the Sib site - it comes with a version of NotateMe optimised for the SP3 apparently. Might be worth checking out ....
> E



Thanks E. I'll check it out. You also gave me the idea of looking for a numeric keypad. Maybe wireless. Hmmm...


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## tokatila

So, after fumbling a little with the Staffpad and Surface Pro 4. I have yet not used it for orchestration just for one instrument (piano). Please remember that these might be also failings of the user, not the program. 

My_* initial *_impressions are that I absolutely love it and hate it at the same time. Why?

Let's start with the bad. The recognition is too darn picky. I mean picky in a way that it's really apparent to the human what symbol is but the program still gets it wrong. And it really breaks the flow. And even when it asks you what the symbol is and you select what you meant from the list, it still doesn't always work, especially if you have more than one line in your symbol.

Most difficult for the program (with my handwriting) to recognize is:
1) Accidentals; they get mixed with an actual note-head
2) Worst for me is the repeated 8th or 16th notes, especially when they are grouped in a same group. It's much easier to draw them just one by one, or at the same pitch and then change them. And it's always almost impossible to add any notes to the group afterwards, or at least not worth the effort.
3) Speech recognition; this was kind of expected with my thick accent, but just so you know. Not really using it now. No-one in my family/friends has yet manage to get the Staffpad to understand the difference between D and B minor even with multiple tries.

(The program is made that it assumes that everything is dandy and just tells you to write in the next bar and it will automatically convert your scribble to the real notation. Except that there is almost always some note/symbol that doesn't get recognized and you don't want yet to start an another bar. Well, how do you make it so that it even tries to convert it to the real notation? By clicking outside the bar; and there is a big problem. Either you have to scribble above some other bar (than the bar you are currently working on) and there is a good chance that your little pen click over/under the other bar will be recognized as a note or staccato marking (that is, if you are correcting a bar and you have already notation in the upcoming bar). You can always prevent that by clicking with your finger, but then you miss the flow with the pen and accidentally select the next/previous bar which then you must un-select before continuing.)

EDIT - I found an alternative way for this which is easier; it seems that if you click far enough (below or above) the bar, it makes the scribble-notation conversion WITHOUT leaving a mark anywhere. Don't know yet if this works when you have multiple staves, but with just one it works. That's why I put the parenthesis to the above. 

And there comes the other big problem; eraser. You have to magnify your score to be very big if you want to erase anything small (accidentals, staccato marking etc.). Otherwise you usually delete the whole note. You can circumvent this by selecting the eraser mode from the top menu, and then you can erase things with the tip of the pen, which is much more accurate. But the problem is that you usually forgot to turn it off and here we go again...

And since you are probably fixing quite a lot of mistake there is a one big problem; the location of the undo button. You have to select it from the top menu and since one undo step corresponds to the one scribble, you are usually pushing the button like a madmen before you get everything off you need. I would really would want to see undo button located more prominently.

Ok; that might sound a very negative impression. But; when the recognition works; it's the most beautiful thing. It's a completely different sense of working when you are just writing the notes. Instead of sitting in front of the DAW with ongoing distraction from the internet/stuff (and I can get quite easily distracted) I can sit now by the piano and can fully concentrate (when Staffpad works; that is) to just composing. And boy; it's much more fun. So even though it's a pain in the ass to work with it; I still feel it's worth the effort. But I really hope that the program gets developed and the engine gets better in the future revisions.


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## Elephant

tokatila said:


> .......... I really hope that the program gets developed and the engine gets better in the future revisions.


V useful - Have you thought of trialling NotateMe which comes with Photoscore Ultimate for Windows ? Sofar no real feedback on that one as yet.

I will be trying out a numeric keypad for note values and will let you know how it turns out.


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## muk

Thank you for your impressions tokatila.



tokatila said:


> The recognition is too darn picky.





tokatila said:


> Except that there is almost always some note/symbol that doesn't get recognized



Absolute deal breaker for me. Too bad, because it is an interesting concept. But as soon as the recognition is not totally flawless - like in 99.9% correctly recognizing what I wrote - it's just less of a hassle to write with pencil on paper for me.


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## Elephant

From Daniel's latest posting at the Steinberg blog it is looking like they will still be some time before release. So I am basing (right or wrong) my planning on a viable alternative being available end of 2016. If I am pleasantly surprised, so much the better. I am still very interested in hearing from any NotateMe users out there - any takers ? 
Thanks !


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