# A Case for Buying a New 2020 Intel iMac in 2022?



## Nachivnik (Jan 9, 2022)

Yesterday I helped my dad purchase a top-end 2020 27" iMac. I went through the virtues of Apple Silicon (AS) and showed him a 24" iMac, but he really wanted the larger screen and he didn't want to wait. Furthermore, he said he has had good luck with Intel over the years. It got me thinking. Sometimes the end of a model has the kinks worked out, whereas a new model comes with new unanticipated problems.

I was thinking of these advantages for Intel:
1) Upgradeable RAM - in music, RAM is often more important than top end processor performance. An Intel 27" iMac cuts costs if you buy your own RAM
2) Software is compatible now.
3) external thunderbolt speeds are slightly better. Whatever the problem is with AS chips, hopefully it can be addressed in software, but as of yet, it is an Intel Mac advantage [EDIT: It is USB speed, not thunderbolt.]
4) Available now

And three advantages for Apple Silicon:
1) Longevity - newest MacOS will probably be upgradable for longer
2) Faster individual core speed
3) Higher multi-core speed rating

Neutral:
Cooler and lower power consumption AS chips don't matter as much in a desktop. The advantages in the new MacBook Pros are compelling in that form factor. Less so in a desktop.

I can wait a few months for a new 2022 Apple Silicon 27" iMac. What I am wondering is if I am passing up a good opportunity with a 2020 iMac.


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## YahmezTV (Jan 9, 2022)

I’m in the same boat. I’ve got about $3k saved up (in apple gift cards so I’m not tempted to blow it all on libraries); debating on picking up a 10-core 27” intel, then upgrading to 128g of ram, or waiting for a silicon iMac or mini with comparable specs.

I’m leaning towards waiting for the silicon, as I livestream my production and also do a live acoustic guitar performance on twitch, a couple nights a week. I use my DAW machine to stream, which limits the amount of extra instruments I can load up in a loop, while still maintaining a low buffer. The increased graphics handling will likely be useful for running OBS with a loaded “live jam template”.


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## Vik (Jan 10, 2022)

Apple announced a transition to Apple Silicon in 22 June 2020, and said, IIRR, that the transition to AS would be completed in two years, which would be June 2022. But they also said that the transition would take two years when the M1 Macs was launched in November 2020. Yet, many major products (Cubase, NI Kontakt, the software needed to use iLoks etc) still aren't AS native, so I think buying a top-end 2020 iMac was a wise move. If two years should be counted from when the first M1 chip Macs were launched, that would be November this year, so maybe buying an Intel Mac would be a good choice for you as well.

I purchased a similar iMac in early October (or thought I did), since I wanted something I could start to use immediately, but this was a secondhand purchase. This iMac is covered by AppleCare, by an insurance and also is new enough to be fixed under 'right of complaint', but the various problems I have with it are still not fixed, meaning that I've lost three months* – and the shop + Apple says that it needs to be sent to a repair company three times before the right to cancel the purchase is valid – and the first time took a month (they didn't fix anything).

I hope your father has more luck with his purchase than I had! I'd actually do it again today if I could, but not from that shop, and not secondhand unless it was less than 12 months ols (mine was 13 months old). Ignoring the various issues I had with the 3.8 GHz i7 iMac, it seems to be a brilliant computer, and I think that almost all the problems I had are something specific to this particular iMac and not these iMacs in general. The only known problem with these iMacs is that sometimes half the screen gets a different look/color. Usually this only happens during shutdown or restart, but I've had it in other situations as well.

*and I'm up for losing two more months

The 2020 i7 3.8 GHz is still the Intel Mac with the highest single core performance, faster than the 10-core iMac, faster than the $6000 (+) Mac Pro, and faster than any of the Mac Pros that have been manufactured so far – according to Geekbench. The average is 1251, but with more RAM and a larger internal drive, the benchmark results get better. The best single core benchmark I had was 1400, which isn't that far behind the AS Macs.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 10, 2022)

I was in the same boat last year, wondering if the new M1 iMac's were around the corner. I went with the 2020 i7 and bought OWC Ram. I have now put it to the test through several demanding projects and it is a real beast. I'm glad I didn't wait! Now that we can see the pricing, an M1 with at least a 27" display and 128 GB Ram (if available) is going to be very pricey compared to a 2020. Plus, my Apogee interface was not M1 compliant which meant I would have had to buy a different interface as well.

The best part? I was able to ditch my slave PC, everything is now done on the iMac which makes my life a lot simpler.


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## juliandoe (Jan 10, 2022)

I believe that Intel Macs have a short life. 
When Apple has done the transition from power PC to intel it took 5 years (2006 - 2011). Considering the improvement of the technology you can expect that this transition will be shorter. I wouldn't be surprised if, at the 2023 WWDC, they will announce the end of the intel-mac era. Another reason to speed up the transition for Apple is that the M1 is their own product, so they keep all the revenue instead of sharing it with Intel. When the transition will be over an intel based mac will be still usable, but will have no support and it's destined to become quickly obsolete. I believe we'll see mac mini and Imac27 with m1pro/max this spring and a new apple silicon-based mac pro next year. So my advice is:

if you need a quick replacement buy used, fit & cheap. You'll upgrade later.
if you need a laptop: MPB14 1TB and the best combo processor memory you can afford
if you want a desktop: Hold on!

I hope that my thoughts will help you decide


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 10, 2022)

juliandoe said:


> I believe that Intel Macs have a short life.
> When Apple has done the transition from power PC to intel it took 5 years (2006 - 2011). Considering the improvement of the technology you can expect that this transition will be shorter. I wouldn't be surprised if, at the 2023 WWDC, they will announce the end of the intel-mac era. Another reason to speed up the transition for Apple is that the M1 is their own product, so they keep all the revenue instead of sharing it with Intel. When the transition will be over an intel based mac will be still usable, but will have no support and it's destined to become quickly obsolete. I believe we'll see mac mini and Imac27 with m1pro/max this spring and a new apple silicon-based mac pro next year. So my advice is:
> 
> if you need a quick replacement buy used, fit & cheap. You'll upgrade later.
> ...


I highly doubt this. With the number of new Intel Mac's out there, I'd say at least 8 years before they drop support.


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## Nachivnik (Jan 10, 2022)

Vik said:


> Apple announced a transition to Apple Silicon in 22 June 2020, and said, IIRR, that the transition to AS would be completed in two years, which would be June 2022. But they also said that the transition would take two years when the M1 Macs was launched in November 2020. Yet, many major products (Cubase, NI Kontakt, the software needed to use iLoks etc) still aren't AS native, so I think buying a top-end 2020 iMac was a wise move. If two years should be counted from when the first M1 chip Macs were launched, that would be November this year, so maybe buying an Intel Mac would be a good choice for you as well.
> 
> I purchased a similar iMac in early October (or thought I did), since I wanted something I could start to use immediately, but this was a secondhand purchase. This iMac is covered by AppleCare, by an insurance and also is new enough to be fixed under 'right of complaint', but the various problems I have with it are still not fixed, meaning that I've lost three months* – and the shop + Apple says that it needs to be sent to a repair company three times before the right to cancel the purchase is valid – and the first time took a month (they didn't fix anything).
> 
> ...


That's too bad your 2020 iMac has given you so many fits. Used computers can be such a great deal when they work out. I hope my dad likes his. He's pretty happy about it - before it arrives.  He might even be getting 128GB of RAM simply because he can. Not that he needs it.

I guess for me, its the cost of RAM that appeals to me. With only slightly lower per-core speeds than AS and software that is already optimized for Intel chips, it could be a wash for another year or two. But with RAM, it's the last chance to avoid the Apple tax on RAM. I won't be getting 128GB of RAM in an AS iMac. Knowing myself, I will balance the costs and spend it elsewhere, because I don't _really_ need it.

But, the RAM issue is a significant one. RAM and drive space are as significant a factor in music machines as processor speed. And those upgrades do not come cheap. Edit: I would define a powerful music computer as one with significant RAM, large and fast SSD's (of whatever name or type), as well as processing power. Add in software and external hardware compatibility (the myriad music devices from audio interfaces to midi interfaces and controllers. This is complex business!).

The other factor most in favor of an Intel Mac is the slower thunderbolt speeds with AS Macs.

On the other hand, I don't foresee Apple upgrading this first generation of AS Macs very soon. Buying early in the cycle gives you the best they have to offer for the longest period of time. Probably a longer life with regard to OS upgrades, too. That said, when the transition was first announced, I thought Apple would deprecate Intel Macs quickly. But now I think they will have a nice long life. Tim Cook said as much. I don't think they want to alienate their users. They would rather incentivize the transition by offering a better product. Also, I feel like I can work through the software compatibility growing pains.

I could wait for an AS 27" iMac if I resolve my two main concerns: 1) the Apple tax on RAM (with a 2020 iMac, I can get more power for fewer dollars), and 2) thunderbolt speeds. I have also read complaints from some users saying they are not getting the performance others are seeing - pops and clicks, etc. - not sure what to make of those users' complaints.


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## Nachivnik (Jan 10, 2022)

juliandoe said:


> I believe that Intel Macs have a short life.
> When Apple has done the transition from power PC to intel it took 5 years (2006 - 2011). Considering the improvement of the technology you can expect that this transition will be shorter. I wouldn't be surprised if, at the 2023 WWDC, they will announce the end of the intel-mac era. Another reason to speed up the transition for Apple is that the M1 is their own product, so they keep all the revenue instead of sharing it with Intel. When the transition will be over an intel based mac will be still usable, but will have no support and it's destined to become quickly obsolete. I believe we'll see mac mini and Imac27 with m1pro/max this spring and a new apple silicon-based mac pro next year. So my advice is:
> 
> if you need a quick replacement buy used, fit & cheap. You'll upgrade later.
> ...


I do think Apple will keep offering OS updates for a 2020 machine for some time. However, obsolescence can come in different ways as the inertia of the industry shifts.

If I want a laptop, an AS MacBook Pro is a no-brainer for me. Low heat, low power consumption, low DPC latency. Picking a laptop would make all of this discussion academic for me.

Thank you all for helping me decide!


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## juliandoe (Jan 10, 2022)

Nachivnik said:


> I do think Apple will keep offering OS updates for a 2020 machine for some time. However, obsolescence can come in different ways as the inertia of the industry shifts.
> 
> If I want a laptop, an AS MacBook Pro is a no-brainer for me. Low heat, low power consumption, low DPC latency. Picking a laptop would make all of this discussion academic for me.
> 
> Thank you all for helping me decide!


The 2006 power mac g5 was supported only for one year (so the max os was Leopard 2007) and all the system updates and customer care ceased in 2012. Let's consider that now there's also the advantage that Apple makes more money on the m1. That said let me clarify that unsupported does not mean unusable.


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## ptram (Jan 10, 2022)

In case an Intel Mac became unsupported by Apple, couldn't it be transformed into a PC running under Bootcamp?

Paolo


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## Vik (Jan 10, 2022)

It seems to me as if Apple are supporting Macs that are up to five years old, and/but – re. the thing about Apple 'supporting' earlier models, all this also depends on how the word 'support' is used. Nevertheless: since the i7 and i9 iMacs still are being sold directly from Apple, and this is 2022, I wouldn't worry about lack of 'support' until 2027.


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## Vik (Jan 10, 2022)

Nachivnik said:


> That's too bad your 2020 iMac has given you so many fits. Used computers can be such a great deal when they work out.


Well, the issues with this model wouldn't have been a problem. I guess, if it had been bought directly from Apple originally. I had a similar situation around 2007-2008, where I bought a MacBook Pro directly from Apple, so I called them, and they told me just to keep using it until I had received a new one which they sent more or less immediately. After this had happened three times in a row, I was offered a full refund, which I used to buy a 2008 Mac Pro – a Mac that was known for being very stable, in fact so stable that people were joking about one had to shoot them to make it stop working.


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## Nachivnik (Jan 10, 2022)

I put together this little list to help me weigh the pros and cons.

How to define a powerful music computer:
1. Single core processing speed (need for VIs) (advantage M1, but not by much over an Intel 2020 27" iMac)
2. Multi-core processing speed (need for many VIs) (a draw)
3. A healthy amount of RAM (advantage Intel 2020 27" iMac due to ability to purchase own RAM and avoid Apple's exorbitant RAM prices)
4. Large and fast SSDs (a draw)
5. Third-party software compatibility & optimization (advantage Intel now)
6. Future macOS compatibility (advantage M1)
7. External hardware compatibility (the myriad music devices from audio interfaces to midi interfaces and controllers) (advantage Intel now)
8. Thunderbolt drive speed - slower thunderbolt drive speeds with M1-based Macs (advantage Intel now) [EDIT: It is actually USB speed at issue, NOT thunderbolt speed]
9. Low DPC latency (a draw)
10. Low heat & therefore lower fan noise (less of an issue for desktops) (advantage M1)
11. Low power consumption (less of an issue for desktops) (advantage M1)


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## rAC (Jan 10, 2022)

Can anyone point out where/why intell Mac’s have a speed advantage on Thunderbolt?


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## Nachivnik (Jan 10, 2022)

I don’t really understand it. I think it would merit its own thread for reference, especially if there are ways to work through it, or if it is really just a matter of getting the right drive enclosure. For one, I do not even know if I would notice a difference in practice. It was in the thread linked below with a post about it here:

Post in thread 'New M1 Pro and M1 Max MacBooks!'
https://vi-control.net/community/threads/new-m1-pro-and-m1-max-macbooks.115856/post-4986937

More here:








More Ways to Get Faster External Drive Speed With Your M1 Mac


In order to get the fastest write speed of an external drive when used in conjunction with an M1 Mac, the following conditions are required:




eshop.macsales.com





Edit again: I have the OWC Thunderbay 4 mini Thunderbolt 3, which says up to 1556MB/s. Based upon the post on the thread above, at that speed I wouldn't be affected anyway because my thunderbolt enclosure is not utilizing the full speed available under Thunderbolt 3.
https://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/TB3QMJB000/


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## rAC (Jan 10, 2022)

Thanks for those links. As I read the first one it’s only referring to USB devices except where it mentions the “reserved” bandwidth that’s part of the TB 4 specification (which sh apply to any TB4 setup).


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## Nachivnik (Jan 10, 2022)

rAC said:


> Thanks for those links. As I read the first one it’s only referring to USB devices except where it mentions the “reserved” bandwidth that’s part of the TB 4 specification (which sh apply to any TB4 setup).


I think you are correct.


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## proggermusic (Jan 10, 2022)

Sorry to piggyback off this thread with something somewhat off-topic (albeit related) – but does anyone happen to have any inkling as to when the new 24" iMacs will be upgradeable beyond 16GB of RAM? My beloved 21" iMac which I bought in 2013 is still honestly going strong, it's the best computer I've ever owned and I love it to death, but at this point it's getting long in the tooth and I'll benefit from an upgrade... but I think 32GB of RAM is a minimum in the current age with the number of VIs I tend to run. (Given the option, I'd go to 64, in all honesty.) 

I'm very impressed with Apple Silicon. My wife, father, and brother have each bought an M1 Macbook Air and they're all phenomenal little machines. I'm almost definitely going to get one for my travel computer, but my workhorse desktop needs to come first. I just have a hard time justifying it before they enable more RAM expansion.


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## thevisi0nary (Jan 10, 2022)

It will be an adequate and powerful machine in its own right, it will also look like an antique in direct comparison to everything else coming out, especially in a few years. 

I wouldn’t buy it, but if he’s happy / will be happy with it then that’s all that matters.


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## Nachivnik (Jan 11, 2022)

proggermusic said:


> Sorry to piggyback off this thread with something somewhat off-topic (albeit related) – but does anyone happen to have any inkling as to when the new 24" iMacs will be upgradeable beyond 16GB of RAM? My beloved 21" iMac which I bought in 2013 is still honestly going strong, it's the best computer I've ever owned and I love it to death, but at this point it's getting long in the tooth and I'll benefit from an upgrade... but I think 32GB of RAM is a minimum in the current age with the number of VIs I tend to run. (Given the option, I'd go to 64, in all honesty.)
> 
> I'm very impressed with Apple Silicon. My wife, father, and brother have each bought an M1 Macbook Air and they're all phenomenal little machines. I'm almost definitely going to get one for my travel computer, but my workhorse desktop needs to come first. I just have a hard time justifying it before they enable more RAM expansion.


M1 chips support 8 or 16GB RAM. M1Pro chips support 16 or 32GB RAM. M1Max chips support 32 or 64GB RAM. 24" iMacs only come with M1 chips. The assumption is that this will remain the case - the base models will get M1, M2, etc., and the Pro models will get the Pro and Max variants. If M2 chips come out and they support more RAM, then the 24" iMac could see more RAM as an option, but Apple still has to replace the Intel versions of their highest-end desktops, so the assumption is that the high-end desktops will be updated before any base model sees another update.

But, it is good to recognize that the vast majority of Mac sales are already M1 variants. The high-end Macs are a tiny fraction of Apple's sales. Most Macs sold are laptops, and of the desktops sold, I am sure most of them are in categories which have already made the switch.

So, I am assuming next up are 27" iMacs with a 16 or 32GB RAM M1Pro option and 32 or 64GB RAM M1Max option, and the same for the Mac mini. The hope is there will be a 128GB option for both the iMac and the Mac mini which would require a new chip variant. The assumption is that the cost will be mind-numbing. That would just leave the Mac Pro yet in need of a new Apple Silicon version.

Pre-M1, there was a power advantage to going desktop over laptop. In the M1 world, there is not yet a power advantage to getting a desktop.


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## khollister (Jan 11, 2022)

Nachivnik said:


> 3) external thunderbolt speeds are slightly better. Whatever the problem is with AS chips, hopefully it can be addressed in software, but as of yet, it is an Intel Mac advantage


The external USB 3.1 speeds are somewhat gimped, but in my experience, TB is fine - equivalent to Intel TB.


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## Nachivnik (Jan 11, 2022)

khollister said:


> The external USB 3.1 speeds are somewhat gimped, but in my experience, TB is fine - equivalent to Intel TB.


Thanks for clearing that up. I don't want to be spreading misinformation.


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## Nachivnik (Jan 11, 2022)

The benefit of purchasing your own RAM does not manifest itself until you get above 32GB:
$2900 2020 Intel i9 iMac and self-purchased $132 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD = $3032
16" MacBook Pro M1Pro with 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD =$3100

$2900 2020 Intel i9 iMac and self-purchased $264 64GB RAM, 1TB SSD = $3164
16" MacBook Pro M1Max with 64GB RAM = $3900

The Intel iMac and the M1Pro/Max MacBook Pros have very similar pricing tiers. For example, SSD upgrade prices are identical across those models. Assuming the new iMac will have similar tiers, it's when you get to 64GB RAM (and 128GB RAM) that losing the ability to purchase your own RAM will be felt. Obviously, a big part of it is that you need to upgrade the CPU to get more RAM.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 11, 2022)

Exactly. Even if you could get 128GB on an upcoming M1, it would be at least $2000 alone. Plus, you get a beautiful 27" display with the Intel iMac


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## Nachivnik (Jan 12, 2022)

In the off chance someone else finds this interesting, here are the benchmarks from Geekbench:

2020 i9 iMac single core 1243 multicore 9029
16" MacBook Pro M1Pro/Max single core 1738 multicore 12097
16" MacBook Pro M1Max single core 1747 multicore 12253

So, that is the trade-off. Intel i9 is about 75% of an M1Pro/Max, but Intel has the better RAM/dollar ratio.

[Remaining factors are current software compatibility with Intel versus long-term compatibility with M1-based chips, as well as the unknown about what the next pro-level iMac and other desktops will really include and cost.]


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 12, 2022)

I always take those benchmarks with a grain of salt....they are not real-world tests, especially from our world. Unless you're running massive templates and have demanding sessions, I doubt you would even notice a difference in the performance.


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## Nachivnik (Jan 12, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> I always take those benchmarks with a grain of salt....they are not real-world tests, especially from our world. Unless you're running massive templates and have demanding sessions, I doubt you would even notice a difference in the performance.


That's what I was thinking. With RAM, you either have enough or you don't (sure there is the swap with the ssd and there are tricks, but if you use the RAM, you use the RAM). But, jumping to an i9 from where I'm at now will more than take care of me. That's a personal situation, but I think I could use the RAM more than the extra CPU power.


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## khollister (Jan 12, 2022)

Nachivnik said:


> In the off chance someone else finds this interesting, here are the benchmarks from Geekbench:
> 
> 2020 i9 iMac single core 1243 multicore 9029
> 16" MacBook Pro M1Pro/Max single core 1738 multicore 12097
> ...


There is also the desktop (nice large display, not portable) vs laptop (nicer small display, amazing battery life for mobile use). At some point, the Intel Mac will be odd man out and support will wane by Apple and devs, but you will likely have a new Mac by then. I think the window of support is likely around 5 years, may be a bit longer. If all you need/want is a desktop, the MBP is a pricey option. 

I would recommend either going for the Intel iMac or waiting a few months to see what the next 27" iMac or Mini looks like.


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## Nachivnik (Jan 14, 2022)

I decided to wait (alas, however, a decision to wait can be undone far too quickly) to see the new M1-based desktops arriving this Spring. I'll forego getting an Intel-based 27" iMac. Fare the well, old upgrade strategy of buying my own RAM!

I have enough technical work to keep myself busy anyway. I still have my dad's 2020 27" Intel-based iMac to set up for him when it arrives ahead of schedule next week. As for me, I bought a NAS (Synology DS220+ with 2 16TB WD Red Pro drives for a total of 32TB). I need to decide if I want them mirrored - I think I do. I will be moving lots of miscellaneous data to the NAS, thus reducing the storage capacity needed for my future music machine and isolating it to its intended use even further.

Thank you all for your comments! Much appreciated.


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## 3CPU (Jan 14, 2022)

Nachivnik said:


> I decided to wait (alas, however, a decision to wait can be undone far too quickly) to see the new M1-based desktops arriving this Spring. I'll forego getting an Intel-based 27" iMac. Fare the well, old upgrade strategy of buying my own RAM!


That be my first choice, wait. Tough being patient, but that's perfectly fine by me because my budget says so and I have other cool things to do.

I really hope rumors are true about Apple's new desktops by March/April 2022. 

Cheers


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## Minsky (Feb 2, 2022)

Vik said:


> It seems to me as if Apple are supporting Macs that are up to five years old, and/but – re. the thing about Apple 'supporting' earlier models, all this also depends on how the word 'support' is used. Nevertheless: since the i7 and i9 iMacs still are being sold directly from Apple, and this is 2022, I wouldn't worry about lack of 'support' until 2027.


I tend to agree. Having worked at Apple I know that 4-6 years of support is usual.


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## Minsky (Feb 2, 2022)

I am struggling with this. I NEED a new desktop pretty badly. My old (revamped 5,1) cheese grater is almost done. I’ve looked at the promise of new 27” AS iMacs and .. I think the Ram (as others here have said) will be punishingly expensive. I also wonder if they’ll actually be able to go to 128 gb which I need for large Orchestral templates. 
Then there’s the issue of compatibility. And .. how long do I wait? They’ll come in the Spring? … in November? Then how long til creases are ironed out? A year? Hmm I think I’ll have to go 2020 iMac and aim to get 3-4 years out of it. I spoke to Apple though and here in the UK at least the lead time on a ‘customized’ iMac is 7 weeks!


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## Wunderhorn (Feb 2, 2022)

My 2 cent towards a simple conclusion:

The M1 family is not ready for professional use. Wait until they come out with one that allows you to *upgrade* RAM. This leaves only the 2019 Mac Pro.
That or get a PC (yes, seriously.) with some Threadripper power.
Personally, I would not buy anything that allows you to put in less than 256GB.

Investing today into something that does not allow you to add RAM and already comes with _far_ too little to begin with will extremely shorten the life-span of your investment. Demands for resources (RAM) will not got down, they will not stagnate. They _will_ rise.

It is as simple as that.
The M1 is like investing into a 25 year old car thinking it'll run as long as a new one.


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## DrRobert (Feb 2, 2022)

According to Mac Rumours Apple will launch it's highest end Mac Pro in the fall of '22 and it will be intel based. Along side this they will launch a smaller, less configurable M1 Mac Pro. To me this doesn't make sense, but I like the idea that Apple will support intel for longer. My trashcan Mac is still current and runs all the latest stuff, but is 9 years old. I am definitely toying with idea of buying a new high end Mac Pro intel version to replace my trash can.


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## Nachivnik (Feb 2, 2022)

Rumors(Rumours) pointing more to a delayed release for an iMac Pro and higher prices along with the "pro" moniker. Based on the M1Pro and M1Max structure, RAM comes only with each step up in the processor. Not a situation friendly to large amounts of RAM.

I am glad I just ordered a 2020 iMac. I am not of a mind to switch to Windows at the moment. However, I will probably stop trying to switch from Cubase to Logic. I better just stick with Cubase to keep my future options open.

In the video below, there is a lot of guessing, but he shapes something we can all feel. It is hard to find a mid-level iMac in what we know about the AS processor situation. You want lots of RAM, you will be buying an iMac Pro and it will have "pro"-moniker pricing. I've priced the new MacBook Pros any way I can (education discounts included), and they are just expensive. Yes, the computer is a key component we use, but that money can be redeployed in other ways if not spent on a computer. I found a good solution for myself for the next few years with a 2020 iMac (I hope). After that, who knows?


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## robgb (Feb 2, 2022)

Frankly, I'd wait until at least March before I bought anything. It's my understanding they're coming out with some new models, including a Mac Mini Pro for about $1300, if I'm remembering correctly. And a little bird tells me that Kontakt for M1 is in the works.

According to Barry Johns of Studio Talk: "Here is the thing with RAM in the M1, it no longer works the way we are used to. 16 is more like 32-48, 32 more like 64-96. Same goes for video, you no longer use a video card, it’s all on the silicon chip."


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## Jett Hitt (Feb 2, 2022)

If I got really desperate, I'd probably just pick up a Mini and try to slave my 5,1. Unfortunately, I have yet to hear anyone say that they have done this, so I just don't know how well it would work. It stands to reason that it would work, but it would be my luck. . . . Personally, I can't imagine doing anything before the March event.


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## Dewdman42 (Feb 2, 2022)

I personally think its too soon to get an M1 Mac except for certain limited situations. I also think that since apple is still selling Intel Macs, they will be supported at least 5 more years. But I think its unlikely that any of us stick with any Intel Macs much beyond that time frame. This transition is going MUCH better then the PPC->Intel transition went, I have to say. And I think there is going to be a much longer overlapping period...but eventually....third party software won't produce software that supports Intel any longer...and that's when all the intel boxes will become less useful. They can still be used indefinitely, but just won't be able etc run the latest stuff.

me personally I'm keeping my 5,1 going until I move to M1, in a few years from now and I do think it will be at least a few more years until M1 is mainstream enough to even consider it, for me anyway. Everyone is different and sure some people are going to argue about it. whatever. That's just me.

I know someone that absolute loves Macs and iPads, but uses a construction oriented program that is not supported on M1 and the developer says they will "never" support M1. He bought an M1 MBP not realizing that and now he doesn't know what to do, he will probably have to buy a cheap windows laptop or something just to run that mission critical app that he depends on. I personally think eventually that program will work on M1, but it will be years away.

If I didn't have a 5,1 already, and I absolutely needed to buy a Mac right now...I don't really know what I would do, possibly I would buy a used 5,1 honestly... I'm quite happy with mine. But a new Intel based Mac would not be out of the question either, I think they will be good for at least 5 more years honestly... I probably wouldn't spend big bucks on the 2019 macPro model though...too much money...if I bought that one I would be expecting ten years out of it, and I think that would be a mistake, except for certain pro users that can justify that cost for 5 years of use out of it and need the power.


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## Wunderhorn (Feb 2, 2022)

robgb said:


> According to Barry Johns of Studio Talk: "Here is the thing with RAM in the M1, it no longer works the way we are used to. 16 is more like 32-48, 32 more like 64-96. Same goes for video, you no longer use a video card, it’s all on the silicon chip."


Wishful thinking. You can't beat physics and I call utter bullshit on this. Space taken is space taken, everything else is swapped caching and no matter how smartly it is done you still have to pay for it in your performance one way or the other.
And even still the above statement was true, you still can't upgrade, it is still not enough for many applications now, let alone being scalable for the future.


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## robgb (Feb 2, 2022)

Wunderhorn said:


> Wishful thinking. You can't beat physics and I call utter bullshit on this. Space taken is space taken, everything else is swapped caching and no matter how smartly it is done you still have to pay for it in your performance one way or the other.
> And even still the above statement was true, you still can't upgrade, it is still not enough for many applications now, let alone being scalable for the future.


I don't know if it's bullshit or not. I don't have an M1 to test it on. But this guy dumped his Mac Pro for an M1 macbook pro...



Wunderhorn said:


> And even still the above statement was true, you still can't upgrade, it is still not enough for many applications now,


What applications are you using? I only have 32 gigs Intel and I'm running multiple memory hogging applications.


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## jbuhler (Feb 2, 2022)

Wunderhorn said:


> The M1 family is not ready for professional use. Wait until they come out with one that allows you to *upgrade* RAM. This leaves only the 2019 Mac Pro.
> That or get a PC (yes, seriously.) with some Threadripper power.
> Personally, I would not buy anything that allows you to put in less than 256GB.


I don't think there will be a Silicon machine in the near future that will allow user upgradeable RAM. I'm not sure we ever will. 

On the other hand, the cost of RAM on the Silicon machines so far has not been outrageous. It may be that sample users who want to work with the DAW on a Mac will be adopting two, three, or more machine setups again, with the Silicon machines with lower RAM taking care for the DAW and the additional PCs loaded with RAM and handling the samples. It's not so long ago that that was pretty much standard practice, and many still practice it.


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## Wunderhorn (Feb 2, 2022)

robgb said:


> I don't know if it's bullshit or not. I don't have an M1 to test it on. But this guy dumped his Mac Pro for an M1 macbook pro...


This is exactly one of those fantasy stories that started the M1 hype. And I understand well how we all wish for some little magic and fairy dust to make everything better, faster, cheaper.

Here is the rub:
Any current mid-range to high-end Intel or AMD chip can handle a decent size orchestral template - YMMV. The most common bottle neck when loading lots of sample libraries is RAM.
Yes, the M1 is a fast chip and can make you feel like things go nice and snappy - until you just run out of memory and the cache is running hot. Then you find yourself constantly freezing tracks and purging samples from memory just like you did on your computer 15 years ago. That's not what I call an improvement.



robgb said:


> What applications are you using? I only have 32 gigs Intel and I'm running multiple memory hogging applications.


By applications I meant work situations. I.e. running a large orchestral template and not having to worry all the time about RAM usage. Plus, keeping a little headroom is always a good thing. 

As a conclusion I would simply recommend only investing a lot of money in a machine that is scalable. When you run out of your 32GB RAM you'd like to be able to add some and keep going. Apple forces you to switch out the entire machine and I think that is not acceptable - especially for us who's workflow involves holding a lot of sample data in the memory at all times.
These days, even for complex illustration work I need 128GB+ just to keep Photoshop running smooth.
In terms of the M1 I would wait until something upgradable comes out. If not, stick with Intel or switch to a Windows PC, that said without bias toward either platform.


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## jbuhler (Feb 2, 2022)

Wunderhorn said:


> Apple forces you to switch out the entire machine and I think that is not acceptable - especially for us who's workflow involves holding a lot of sample data in the memory at all times.


For many folks, moving from Apple is just not a viable option. Whether or not what Apple is doing is acceptable to you is beside the point for them. (Just to be clear, I think your stance makes sense for you and for those who are in a position to move away from Apple, they have a choice to make. For the rest of us, we have to find other paths.)


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## Wunderhorn (Feb 2, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> I don't think there will be a Silicon machine in the near future that will allow user upgradeable RAM. I'm not sure we ever will.
> 
> On the other hand, the cost of RAM on the Silicon machines so far has not been outrageous. It may be that sample users who want to work with the DAW on a Mac will be adopting two, three, or more machine setups again, with the Silicon machines with lower RAM taking care for the DAW and the additional PCs loaded with RAM and handling the samples. It's not so long ago that that was pretty much standard practice, and many still practice it.


You may be right, that the M1 and its siblings will not get the option to be upgraded.
But hey - on my 2019 Mac Pro I can finally run my whole template without using slaves. Such a relief - no more networking and babysitting several machines for one session.
I don't think I ever want to go back to multiple machines. In this regard the M1 seems to be a really bad compromise - more like a step back.
Maybe they will come out with M1 siblings that can handle 128, 256, 512GB, who knows. That'll be fine. Til then it's Intel Mac or switch to a PC.


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## jbuhler (Feb 2, 2022)

Wunderhorn said:


> You may be right, that the M1 and its siblings will not get the option to be upgraded.
> But hey - on my 2019 Mac Pro I can finally run my whole template without using slaves. Such a relief - no more networking and babysitting several machines for one session.
> I don't think I ever want to go back to multiple machines. In this regard the M1 seems to be a really bad compromise - more like a step back.
> Maybe they will come out with M1 siblings that can handle 128, 256, 512GB, who knows. That'll be fine. Til then it's Intel Mac or switch to a PC.


I've never run multiple machines. I have always relied on freezing and upgrading RAM. I'm currently on a 2020 i9 imac with 128GB, and that is serving my needs adequately. But I have a 64GB 2015 i7 iMac, currently serving as the hub of a zoom studio that is getting little use now that I'm no longer teaching on zoom. So I've been thinking of turning that into a sample server, and once I do that, there's not much to keep me from doing the same with the i9 when the time comes and running everything with one of the new Apple machines, which won't need to have obscene amounts of memory because the samples are all being served remotely.


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## Wunderhorn (Feb 2, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> For many folks, moving from Apple is just not a viable option. Whether or not what Apple is doing is acceptable to you is beside the point for them. (Just to be clear, I think your stance makes sense for you and for those who are in a position to move away from Apple, they have a choice to make. For the rest of us, we have to find other paths.)


I had to face a similar quandary when I wanted to replace my old trashcan. I did not want to leave MacOS. At least not yet. So I had to go for the big machine. It was that or jump ship and get a PC. As someone who last used Windows when it was still called "Windows 95" I got a creepy feeling which made me run and get the Mac Pro. (Of course Win 10 has seen a few improvements here and there since then.) 

Anyway, all I want to point out here is that there is a lot of hype around the M1 which simply needs a reality check. The gain in speed comes with the price of memory. People who are trying to make a good buying decision need to know what the thing can do what i can't do. Magically run a 500 track template with all samples loaded isn't one of them.


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## jbuhler (Feb 2, 2022)

Wunderhorn said:


> I had to face a similar quandary when I wanted to replace my old trashcan. I did not want to leave MacOS. At least not yet. So I had to go for the big machine. It was that or jump ship and get a PC. As someone who last used Windows when it was still called "Windows 95" I got a creepy feeling which made me run and get the Mac Pro. (Of course Win 10 has seen a few improvements here and there since then.)
> 
> Anyway, all I want to point out here is that there is a lot of hype around the M1 which simply needs a reality check. The gain in speed comes with the price of memory. People who are trying to make a good buying decision need to know what the thing can do what i can't do. Magically run a 500 track template with all samples loaded isn't one of them.


I mean, I've been running a Mac since 1986. I've never had a PC, and have used them only occasionally. My entire archive is Mac based and not all of it is accessible due to defunct programs but that would be even more the case if I moved to PC. And I'd have to replace much of my software, so there's that expense too. So I'd have a ton of new muscle memory to learn, software to repurchase, plus the archive, which I'd have to either convert myself, pay to have converted, or decide I'm ok with abandoning. Now there will be losses when I move all my machines from Mojave, and more when and if I move to the new silicon machines, so this would be one of the best moments to move to PC if I was going to do it, but even with all that the costs are still very high, and the working years I have left are not that many, so for my situation it doesn't really make sense. My daughter, though, just bought a high end PC and is moving out of the Apple ecosystem, and in a year or two will be completely free of it.


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## DrRobert (Feb 2, 2022)

Wunderhorn said:


> Wishful thinking. You can't beat physics and I call utter bullshit on this. Space taken is space taken, everything else is swapped caching and no matter how smartly it is done you still have to pay for it in your performance one way or the other.
> And even still the above statement was true, you still can't upgrade, it is still not enough for many applications now, let alone being scalable for the future.


Agree 100%. Paging is faster in m1, but not fast enough to replace lots of ram.


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## wayne_rowley (Feb 3, 2022)

Wunderhorn said:


> These days, even for complex illustration work I need 128GB+ just to keep Photoshop running smooth.
> In terms of the M1 I would wait until something upgradable comes out. If not, stick with Intel or switch to a Windows PC, that said without bias toward either platform.


While I would never say never, I think the chances of Apple launching an AS Mac with upgradeable RAM at the consumer/mid-level market/prices are extremely low. Here's the thing:

- Most of Apple's computer-buyer market will get by quite happily on a Macbook Air
- The majority of who need more power/RAM will likely get by just fine on a Macbook Pro or new iMac

While there are a number of customers who really need a lot/upgradeable RAM - they are I'm sure a relatively tiny segment of Apple's computer buyers - and for the most part will fall into the 'Pro' market segment. I am sure eventually Apple will release a product that caters for them - a new Mac Pro at Mac Pro prices!

You raise a real concern with the move to AS and one that I am mulling-over - ever since I worked out I'd need to spend at least £3.5K to replace my £1K 2018 Mac Mini (which I've upgraded the RAM myself). I don't really want to move to PC - the hassle of migrating to a new DAW from Logic being the main cause of my reluctance, but I am considering it as I know I could get a fully maintainable/upgradable, powerful machine for a fraction of the price of the Apple equivalent. I'm not a pro and I can't justify spending the money I'd need to get a Mac Pro (current or future).

Wayne


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## Dewdman42 (Feb 3, 2022)

I think they will probably release a dual processor AS that has a lot of ram built in and it will be bloody expensive but that is what I think they will do eventually. It’s not a high priority because the vast majority of consumers don’t need that. The vast majority want longer battery life, less heat.

Intel is still the way to go for us and possibly for as much as five more years


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## Wunderhorn (Feb 3, 2022)

wayne_rowley said:


> You raise a real concern with the move to AS and one that I am mulling-over - ever since I worked out I'd need to spend at least £3.5K to replace my £1K 2018 Mac Mini (which I've upgraded the RAM myself). I don't really want to move to PC - the hassle of migrating to a new DAW from Logic being the main cause of my reluctance, but I am considering it as I know I could get a fully maintainable/upgradable, powerful machine for a fraction of the price of the Apple equivalent. I'm not a pro and I can't justify spending the money I'd need to get a Mac Pro (current or future).
> 
> Wayne


It is a tough decision for sure especially when the budget does not allow for a Mac Pro.
Maybe the next Mac Mini, or some smaller Mac Pro model could be the ticket and we should know more about such possibilities this fall.

Coincidentally I also took a look at other DAWs after having been a Logic user for many years. I never really had given it much thought to switch, though I was starting to think that I might want to use something that could also work if I had to go to a Windows machine.
When I tried Studio One I realized how many things it had that I always wished Logic had or would improve on (Easier articulation switching system, swifter routing, several automation lanes at once in the piano roll and other workflow related things). I ended up being glad I looked outside the Apple box.


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## Nachivnik (Feb 3, 2022)

Wunderhorn said:


> Maybe the next Mac Mini, or some smaller Mac Pro model could be the ticket and we should know more about such possibilities this fall.


It is starting to sound like the timeline is further in the future than earlier rumors predicted. For whatever reason, MacBook Pros are weeks/months out for delivery. Custom orders are even longer. If there is a component shortage, and it's not in the processors, a new Mac mini before a new iMac makes sense. It's easy to see what will be in them: M1Pro and M1Max - maximum 64GB RAM. To fully replace the current iMac, they need to release an M1-based chip that can handle 128GB RAM. The mini does not have that same requirement. But, the writing is on the wall for a processor that can handle 128GB RAM - it will be more powerful and more expensive. Doubtful there will be an M1Pro + 128GB RAM option the way there is an i5 + 128GB RAM option today.

But, even if there is a new mini announced in March, and you can get it fully tricked out in May or June, there remains the trade-off of compatibility now for compatibility in five years. I don't live in the future, so I decided to go for compatibility now. As for the next-generation iMac, rumors are pushing it back to a fall announcement, which means maybe you'd get a custom order by Christmas. Whatever the reason, that's a long way away. You could almost squeeze a 2022 Intel-based iMac in there.


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## rnb_2 (Feb 3, 2022)

There is still the occasional rumor of the dual M1 Max configuration maybe making it into an iMac Pro, which would open up the 128GB option. There is, at the other end, some hope that Apple might be able to put an M1 Pro into the 24" iMac - the 21.5" iMac usually had a high end config that could compete with at least the low end of the 27", after all.


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## Jeremy Gillam (Feb 3, 2022)

I had a ton of problems with my 27 inch 10900K iMac and OWC RAM. Posting from my phone now but a forum search would turn up some discussion about it. I finally got it resolved but it was a nightmare. I like the computer and the display is nice but I really wish it were 32 inches. 27 is too small to really be satisfying. Fine for word processing but not ideal for DAW or photo/video work. If I were you I would wait for a bigger better iMac or a powerful Mac mini.


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## rnb_2 (Feb 3, 2022)

Jeremy Gillam said:


> I had a ton of problems with my 27 inch 10900K iMac and OWC RAM. Posting from my phone now but a forum search would turn up some discussion about it. I finally got it resolved but it was a nightmare. I like the computer and the display is nice but I really wish it were 32 inches. 27 is too small to really be satisfying. Fine for word processing but not ideal for DAW or photo/video work. If I were you I would wait for a bigger better iMac or a powerful Mac mini.


Yeah, there have been reports that some batches of OWC RAM have been causing issues - some people haven't had any issues, but some definitely have.

I can't imagine feeling that a 27" display was too small, but that may have to do with viewing distance. Since just about everything is 4k now, going bigger just makes everything larger unless you start getting aggressive with the "More Space" options in Display prefs. I'm running my 4k 27" so that it looks like a 5k, and there is one more step before you're just running at native resolution, so some people running on 32" displays go with that. I find the 27" a nice balance at about 2' viewing distance - I don't have to turn my head to see the edges of the screen, and everything is legible - but if your viewing distance is greater than that, I could see a larger display being desirable.


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## jbuhler (Feb 4, 2022)

rnb_2 said:


> Yeah, there have been reports that some batches of OWC RAM have been causing issues - some people haven't had any issues, but some definitely have.
> 
> I can't imagine feeling that a 27" display was too small, but that may have to do with viewing distance. Since just about everything is 4k now, going bigger just makes everything larger unless you start getting aggressive with the "More Space" options in Display prefs. I'm running my 4k 27" so that it looks like a 5k, and there is one more step before you're just running at native resolution, so some people running on 32" displays go with that. I find the 27" a nice balance at about 2' viewing distance - I don't have to turn my head to see the edges of the screen, and everything is legible - but if your viewing distance is greater than that, I could see a larger display being desirable.


I have the OWC memory and it has been fine for me, so it's not every batch by any means. Still I feel very lucky.

With a desk set up that requires an iMac toward the back, 27" is quite a lot smaller than ideal, especially with my older eyes, and I end up scaling it larger for readability. And even on my older 27" iMac that is positioned at about 2', so at least a foot closer than the iMac running the rig, I still prefer it scaled at 2048X1152 rather than the default. And I still scale word processing documents at 150% and the internet browser at 125% on top of that.


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## Dewdman42 (Feb 4, 2022)

I have found my 32" 4k to be ideal until such time 6k becomes more common. If they made a 5k 32" monitor I might consider that also. I sit about 2 feet away with hiDPI scaling set to approximately 3000x1600 give or take a few pixels., but could also sit 3-4 feet away or even further with lower resolution settings. This results in font PPI of about 107, which is fine at 2 feet away. 105 is probably better for longer periods of time. 

I don't feel that 32" monitor from 2 feet over-does the head turning. But I do feel that I have to sometimes crane my neck a bit more then I'd like to view the upper few inches of the display. Eventually I want to get an ARM so that I can lower it and tilt it back a bit so that I'm kind of looking down at it rather then looking up for the top. Lower is better for progressive glasses too.

I think a 27" monitor would be my second alternative, but I would probably still prefer 2 foot viewing distance and font PPI right around 107 or perhaps slightly less, works out to something close to 2560x1440....just slightly less then that actually. Well that will have a slightly better HiDPI scaled rendering compared to the 3000 horizontal pixels I am doing on my 32"...both being 4k. If the Apple 5k display is used, you get true HiDPI at that resolution...which looks sharp as hell and beautiful to look at it in everyday. But I rather prefer having more pixels on the screen with my 32" at ~3000x1600, which gives me approximately the same sized fonts as the 27" at 2560x1440..but with more desktop real estate to work with...and its still HiDPI...just not 2-to-1 HiDPI...and further from it then running a 4k at 2560 also. You can see a slight difference. It still looks great compared to non-HiDPI scaling... Sometimes I run my 32" at 2560 just because its slightly more HiDPI-sharp...of course running it at 1920 is SUPER sharp..there is no comparison. that is the ideal for 4k HiDPI. While an Apple 5k can optimally run at 2560 HiDPI...which will be about the right font sizes for sitting 2 feet away.

The resolutions I tend to work with, work out like this (on 32" 4k):


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## Nachivnik (Feb 11, 2022)

I ended up buying a refurb 2020 27" iMac with an Intel i7 and a 512GB SSD from Woot. it still has a warranty until July.

Earlier, I returned the NAS I had purchased. It didn't work out like I had hoped.

Back to the iMac. I tried to do a data-only migration, but it wouldn't let me because my Late 2015 iMac is running Monterey, and this was on Big Sur or earlier. So, then I tried to use the USB stick I had prepared to upgrade to Monterey, but it threw an error. Then I tried to upgrade from System Preferences, but it threw another error. Googled and found the problem was the security settings. When you use the new Erase All Content and Settings option, you have to have security at its highest setting. Maybe the prior user had used this, or maybe it was just set to the highest security setting and to disallow booting from an external device. I went into Recovery Mode and set it to allow booting from external drives and also to take it from the highest security setting which only allows you to install the current OS onto it. This is strange to me, and I think will cause a lot of problems in the future with computers resold after using Erase All Content and Settings.

I was then able to use my USB stick and create a fresh install of Monterey. I did a data-only migration, but made the mistake of migrating the Library. This is where all of the junk is found. So, I brought over all of my junk. I still had to reinstall all of the apps, but kept all of junk - kind of the worst of both methods of migration (data or full migration). I should have done all or nothing (or at least done data-only WITHOUT the Library). It all worked out. But, I won't want all of that junk when I make the switch to an Apple Silicon computer in the future, that is for sure. I put in my 128GB RAM (Crucial), tested it and went to bed.

For some reason during the install, I had to put it back to the highest security setting - maybe it was to migrate data - so I had gone into Recovery Mode and set it to the highest again. The next morning I wanted to change it back to a lower security setting, but it would not accept my User Account password. I tried changing my password multiple times and all of the standard reset options. Nothing worked until I unplugged it for 15 seconds to reset SMC. Then it accepted my password and I set it to a lower security setting and I could enter my password to make other changes within System Preferences.

By this time, I was wondering if I had hardware issues, and that this was why it was a Woot refurb. I even tested mouse behavior between my new and older Mac, which turned out to be the same. I couldn't pair a Logitech mouse, only to eventually realize I was not setting it up for pairing properly. I have not any problems with it since.

It has been hard to get excited about a Mac that looks identical to the other two iMacs I already have (sold the non-retina iMac today - yay!). But, the performance is definitively superior. I briefly had an M1 MacBook Air at Christmas before I returned it. I like the M1 future. That said, now that I have got it all set up, I like my 2020 Intel iMac. It is quite powerful. It is fully compatible now. I can see now that in the future I may want to choose my own larger screen, but it will not of the same quality as my iMac screen - trade-offs. This could mean I will wish I had waited a couple of months for a Mac mini with 64GB RAM.

This is my first Mac with a T2 chip in it. It really feels like a hybrid step between my Late 2015 iMac and the M1 MacBook Air I briefly had in December. Apple Silicon is a great way forward. Once all of the ducks are in a row, it will be great. I like this solution for now. It will be interesting to me how long I feel this way.


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## jbuhler (Feb 11, 2022)

Nachivnik said:


> I ended up buying a refurb 2020 27" iMac with an Intel i7 and a 512GB SSD from Woot. it still has a warranty until July.
> 
> Earlier, I returned the NAS I had purchased. It didn't work out like I had hoped.
> 
> ...


I did a fresh install and the migrates when I moved to the 2020 iMac. It all went well except iTunes. And I still haven’t fully recovered from that. I’ve tried a couple of times but there seems to be no way to transfer my iTunes library from Mojave to Catalina without it losing most of the metadata from the old library. I think I tried it three times. The only things that transferred right were things that were purchased from Apple. Albums got populated with random tracks. Tracks changed names and artists. Etc. It’s an utter disaster and one reason I’ve been reluctant to update the systems on my other computers past Mojave.


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## Nachivnik (Feb 16, 2022)

FYI They’re back again at Woot. 
2020 i7 for $1599









Apple 27" iMac 5K 512GB MXWV2LL/A (2020)


Apple 27" iMac 5K 512GB MXWV2LL/A (2020)




www.woot.com


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## ChrisHarrison (Feb 16, 2022)

I have a maxed out 2020 iMac and wouldn’t trade it for anything. It rips. Changed things for me for sure. Max that ram and you’ll be real happy. I can run a full spitfire orchestration with synths and automation and picture and it’s happy.


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## aeliron (Feb 22, 2022)

wayne_rowley said:


> While I would never say never, I think the chances of Apple launching an AS Mac with upgradeable RAM at the consumer/mid-level market/prices are extremely low. Here's the thing:
> 
> - Most of Apple's computer-buyer market will get by quite happily on a Macbook Air
> - The majority of who need more power/RAM will likely get by just fine on a Macbook Pro or new iMac
> ...


I don’t know how far the M1 will go for professionals who need hundreds of VIs, but it’s amazing to me that I can run a full orchestra right off the internal drive without need for a separate audio interface, plus drive high impedance headphones, all in one laptop with zero fan activity. And I’ll always be grateful for my 2013 iMac which let me start producing music again, after a long, Windows-induced hiatus, where I had to take a break from constantly battling noise, pops, clicks, and such, never knowing if the cause was Windows or hardware or a driver. Glad that the Windows situation has changed for the better and still works great for so many, though!


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## mushanga (Jun 10, 2022)

Hi all,
I’d be interested to hear if those who purchased a 27” i7/i9 2020 iMac recently are still happy with their decision, or whether in hindsight they’d have opted for an Apple Silicon machine like an M1 Max/Ultra Mac Studio?
Cheers


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 10, 2022)

mushanga said:


> Hi all,
> I’d be interested to hear if those who purchased a 27” i7/i9 2020 iMac recently are still happy with their decision, or whether in hindsight they’d have opted for an Apple Silicon machine like an M1 Max/Ultra Mac Studio?
> Cheers


I am 100% happy with my 2020 i7. It is a beast.


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## Nachivnik (Jun 10, 2022)

mushanga said:


> Hi all,
> I’d be interested to hear if those who purchased a 27” i7/i9 2020 iMac recently are still happy with their decision, or whether in hindsight they’d have opted for an Apple Silicon machine like an M1 Max/Ultra Mac Studio?
> Cheers


So far so good. Its value will come from use, not resale. The Ventura compatibility list cuts off older computers fairly aggressively, so I don't know how long it will receive new OS updates. Even then, it can go for years frozen on its last OS. I will probably get bored and want to try something new before its useful life ends. The Studio is nice, but MacBooks seem to be where most of the benefits are found. I bought a refurb 27" i7 2020 iMac and put in 128 GB RAM (5K monitor included!) for considerably less than a Studio.

I don't know which I would buy now, a few months later. Custom-configured Mac Studios still have a long wait. I am still undecided whether I would like to make the switch to a MacBook Pro as my everything machine, or have a desktop + light duty MacBook Air. My iMac helps me kick that can down the road farther.

If I bought a base model Studio, I don't know that I would get any more years out of it than I will get from my iMac. Reason being that I could bump up against a RAM limit of 32 GB, or decide I want a larger internal drive. I am not good at predicting my needs two years out, let alone five years out.

This is why I wonder if I would rather buy something as basic as a MacBook Air or a base model 14" MacBook Pro to use for everything (non-music, MS Office, web surfing, etc.), and supplement it with a desktop using VEPro when doing bigger things. I doubt I would like it, so I will probably be buying a MacBook Air at some point to do office junk (to replace my aged non-retina 2012 MacBook Pro), and stick with a desktop for creative work.

If you can get an iMac for considerably less than a Mac Studio, it is a great value. But, Apple Silicon native versions of software are coming out more quickly now. You will get more longevity from a Mac Studio if you configure it right for your needs five years from now. I am not good at predicting that far in advance and I'll probably like whatever is new in a few years regardless. So, iMac works for me for now. I will get more value from more RAM than higher CPU speed. I've said "value" a lot - RAM, 5K screen, kbd + mouse, lower cost. Balanced against longevity, which is an open question. Compatibility with software favors the iMac currently, but favors the Mac Studio over time. When the tipping point occurs, who knows?


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## mushanga (Jun 10, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> I am 100% happy with my 2020 i7. It is a beast.


Glad to hear you’re loving it. It’s a stunning machine. I had a Late 2015 27” iMac and really miss the 5K screen and all-in-one convenience! When Apple got rid of the larger iMac in March I was left frustrated. I want to make the transition to Apple Silicon but am now forced to buy a monitor, and that 5K screen I had gotten used to has left me disappointed with most other non-Apple displays. It was just so damn crisp!!

I’ve also read a lot about fan noise issues (most concerning of which is a high pitched “whine”) in the Mac Studio, not to the mention the long delivery times (currently about 2 months here in the UK). The 2020 i7 iMac still fetches for around £1700-2100 and I’d also need to purchase additional RAM. Not sure how sensible it would be to spend that kind of money on an Intel chip. It’s such a difficult decision.


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## mushanga (Jun 10, 2022)

Nachivnik said:


> So far so good. Its value will come from use, not resale. The Ventura compatibility list cuts off older computers fairly aggressively, so I don't know how long it will receive new OS updates. Even then, it can go for years frozen on its last OS. I will probably get bored and want to try something new before its useful life ends. The Studio is nice, but MacBooks seem to be where most of the benefits are found. I bought a refurb 27" i7 2020 iMac and put in 128 GB RAM (5K monitor included!) for considerably less than a Studio.
> 
> I don't know which I would buy now, a few months later. Custom-configured Mac Studios still have a long wait. I am still undecided whether I would like to make the switch to a MacBook Pro as my everything machine, or have a desktop + light duty MacBook Air. My iMac helps me kick that can down the road farther.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the feedback. According to the Geekbench stats even the M1 Max roasts the 2020 i7 iMac’s multicore score. I wouldn’t want to regret investing in old architecture for which Apple (and other developers working on plugins like Kontakt) no longer optimise their software.

If I could find a used 2020 i7 iMac in very good condition for around £1000 I’d pull the trigger. I’d have to factor in another £250-300 for 64GB of RAM. That would come to about half the price of an equivalent spec’ed Mac Studio (without the 5K screen though I might add!). Will have to keep dreaming as it doesn’t look like these iMacs will go down to those prices just yet!


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