# Music made with an A.I.



## racerx (Dec 28, 2020)

I thought people would find the following interesting. Examples of what is possible with current a.i. technologies:


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## YaniDee (Dec 28, 2020)

Thanks for sharing this..No offense, but it makes you appreciate silence..
Would you go to a concert and watch a laptop play like Hendrix or Van Halen or John Williams?
Once everybody can press a button to compose a piece of music, who will be impressed?
The only people benefiting will be film makers with no budget..
Anyhow, I'm not ditching my instruments just yet..


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## mikeh-375 (Dec 30, 2020)

YaniDee said:


> ...............*Once everybody can press a button to compose a piece of music, who will be impressed?*
> The only people benefiting will be film makers with no budget..
> Anyhow, I'm not ditching my instruments just yet..




Yani, I'm sure we both know that in essence, it's been like that for many years now, AI is just a new way albeit a more threatening one. Imo, the DAW has democratised the act of composing, but not necessarily the art.
That said, I thought track 4 in the playlist was better than many human efforts I've heard over the years...sad but true.


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## AudioLoco (Dec 30, 2020)

VADE RETRO SATANA!

AI+art=evil


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## GtrString (Dec 30, 2020)

Interesting... I know what it means when americans say that.  Its like.. We call You.


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## KarlHeinz (Dec 30, 2020)

racerx: as I am always interesting in whats going on, could you share some links to software ?


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## ReleaseCandidate (Dec 30, 2020)

YaniDee said:


> Would you go to a concert...


Well, ...


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## AudioLoco (Dec 30, 2020)

GtrString said:


> Interesting... I know what it means when americans say that.  Its like.. We call You.


??


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## Nico (Dec 30, 2020)

with a few changes, 6 and 7 could make it on the radio today or even win the Eurovision contest :D . I am not sure what is the % of human intervention in the editing/polishing


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## Saxer (Dec 30, 2020)

This AI making music thing is to me like inventing a machine that can watch TV or a machine that can drink wine. I mean: people WANT to make music. They WANT to express themself. It's a form of communication. The world is full of music but we don't stop to compose, perform and record new music. Why? Because it's a pleasing activity. What does it help if machines can do it too?


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## KarlHeinz (Dec 30, 2020)

Saxer said:


> This AI making music thing is to me like inventing a machine that can watch TV or a machine that can drink wine. I mean: people WANT to make music. They WANT to express themself. It's a form of communication. The world is full of music but we don't stop to compose, perform and record new music. Why? Because it's a pleasing activity. What does it help if machines can do it too?


Agree totally, but I see AI more in interaction with the human composer. And there the "borders" just moving. What is scaler 2 for example ? AI just completely making music for itself without human interaction makes no sense, I agree. But from the tools in the song examples I only know Aiva (there is a free account to try some things of it out) and this is nothing different from something like Orb Composer/Orp producer, Captain plugins.....just tools helping in composing (like the firest daw years ago mentioned above).


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## ReleaseCandidate (Dec 30, 2020)

Saxer said:


> What does it help if machines can do it too?


People don't háve to pay 'real' persons to compose or adapt music they need for their escalators, shopping malls, products, videos, games, films,...
More or less lowering the prices for media composers. Or, to put it more positive: composers don't need to do cliche, soulless, uninspiring music any more


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## MartinH. (Dec 30, 2020)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> Or, to put it more positive: composers don't need to do cliche, soulless, uninspiring music any more



Lol, you wish... If anything it'll become the norm and clients will start asking you to write more like the stuff they are used to hearing everywhere.


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## AudioLoco (Dec 30, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> Lol, you wish... If anything it'll become the norm and clients will start asking you to write more like the stuff they are used to hearing everywhere.


Agree 100%...
More automation and "self deciding" tools there are , the more they are going to get used.

Pop(ular) music has already been invaded by Autotune and extreme quantizing, and became the norm, and what most people expect from a modern production.

While music is a subjective matter as it gets, and other's people tastes and opinions have to be respected, extreme Autotune makes me want to puke and has become such a sad fact of life....

I am OK with some adjustments, a note here and there so you don't have to redo a thousand takes, but people dig the "sound" of it.... (?!)

If you need a machine/robot to do MOST of the job, why not just be a plumber or an estate agent and let the musicians be musicians?....

Having said that, in extremely experimental music, AI might be interesting, with enough user intervention...


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## Bluemount Score (Dec 30, 2020)

Why am I scared to click play?


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## telecode101 (Dec 30, 2020)

..


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## mikeh-375 (Dec 30, 2020)

..... music imv has been reduced in some genres to the lowest (simplest) common denominators with such an unrelenting ad nauseum that it's no surprise that AI is finally here to exploit this. It's a doddle for AI to manipulate tired and formulaic procedures, as easy as it is for any competent composer to do so - easier in fact.

One way to combat AI in the market place is through originality and even if that gift was evident in a composer, they run the risk of not being accepted because originality whilst prized, can also imply breaking one or two (money making) musical conventions and expectations......it's a pickle created by ermm...


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## Bluemount Score (Dec 30, 2020)

Okay Nr. 4 seems like a decent foundation to me. Somehow the theme reminds me of Antonin Dvorak symphony no. 9 first movement...


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## cnogradi (Dec 30, 2020)

How AI-generated music is changing the way hits are made


Music-making AI software has advanced so far in the past few years that it’s no longer a frightening novelty; it’s a viable tool.




www.theverge.com


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## Polkasound (Dec 30, 2020)

There are a few key sentences in the article posted above that really hit the mark. I've truncated them for brevity. They will either make your blood boil or tell you what you already know:


_[Taryn] Southern originally turned to AI because even though she was a songwriter, she knew “very, very little about music theory.” It was a roadblock that frustrated her to no end. ... "Now I’m able to iterate with the music... It still feels like it’s mine in a sense.”_​​_This feeling of empowerment is exactly what Amper Music is trying to deliver. ... “We can facilitate your creative process to cut a lot of the bullshit elements of it...”_​​_When [Amper Music co-founder Michael] Hobe says “bullshit elements,” he’s talking about a guitarist not knowing how to orchestrate an instrument they’ve never worked with before, the time spent crafting the velocity of individual drum hits..._​​_...using AI [allows those] with no formal music background to participate in making music._​

In addition to less educated or less ambitious musicians using AI as a crutch creative tool, there is another driving force behind the development of musical AI:

The term "music producer" was never just another job title like senior accountant — it's always been revered as somewhat of an accolade in itself. Back in the day, only the most skilled home studio musicians could legitimately say "I'm a music producer" because only they had the commercially-viable material to back it up.

Nowadays with tools like loops, beat creators, construction kits, and AI, anyone who likes music can press a few keys on a laptop and churn out a retail-ready track. This phenomenon puts the "I'm a music producer" accolade into the hands of pretty much any teenager who wants it.

Wanna be called a doctor? Go to medical school and pass a residency.
Wanna be called a professional athlete? Train for years and years.
Wanna be called a lawyer? Go law school and pass the bar exam.
Wanna be called a chef? Go to culinary school and learn the art.
Wanna be called a music producer? Press this button.

Personally, I have nothing against music makers using AI. If it makes someone happy to use it, then more happiness to them. For me, however, music creation is a sacred process — when I can't deliver what I am hearing in my head, I work at it until I finally can.

As AI evolves, I may like some songs created by AI software without even knowing it, and that's OK. But no AI software is ever going to contribute to my albums. I'd much rather release a mediocre original single than an AI-generated chart topper.


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## telecode101 (Dec 30, 2020)

..


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## Tremendouz (Dec 30, 2020)

telecode101 said:


> The value of music may be decreasing. What if music is going the way of IKEA and furniture industry.


I hope this leads to sample library prices getting reduced too.

No but seriously, if AI can help produce sounds easier, cheaper and with more flexibility, I'm all in.


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## mikeh-375 (Dec 30, 2020)

God help the profession.


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## rhizomusicosmos (Dec 30, 2020)

racerx said:


> I thought people would find the following interesting. Examples of what is possible with current a.i. technologies:



Track 3 made me laugh! Someone has been teaching the AI to churn out U2. All Apple needs to do is teach Siri how to sing like Bono and the next iPhone will be able to render future albums in realtime to eager listeners!


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## KarlHeinz (Dec 30, 2020)

> For me, however, music creation is a sacred process


I absolutely agree.

But where is the source of "sacred" ? Does this mean human knowledge (in music therory, playing instruments) only ? What has sacred to do with making money and a living as professional with music ? What has a sacred native american traditional dance to do with professional music ? 

I dont have answers for these questions. But I think its very hard not to mix up thinks in this area. Personal fears. No answer coming from my brain for this. But the answer I know inside does not exclude AI.

When I was making "real" music in the days of old (as a hobby musician only as I do now with computer music) I hated all whats not "hand-made" (but I accepted electronic guitars  . And was happy getting a microphone and amp in the loudness war with them and the worst of all, the drummers  ). A synth was the beginning of the devils way for me, and COMPUTER MUSIC ????? WTF, what has a computer to do with music ?????? I would have banned any coming into a rehearsal room in that days.

Now I am happy having one opening up new worlds. And I am glad I dont have to make a complete music studies to be able to use them to make some music for MY mind. I can use NADA from Eduardo to make something that at least comes as close as I can get to my idea of "sacred". And if something like Wotja for example can help me on that way, whats wrong with it ?

To sum it up: I dont see anything sacred in music production, if with or without AI. MAKING of music, giving birth to whats inside, the mind behind it, this is all a sacred thing, as old as human being, totally agree with that.


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## rhizomusicosmos (Dec 30, 2020)

Are we getting caught up in human exceptionalism?

In *A Million Years of Music*, Gary Tomlinson makes the argument that music, or rather the human skill of _musicking_, grew out of a feedback loop between our biological evolution and slow cultural development over hundreds of thousands of years. In our deep history, proto-musicking became a way to organise the taskscape around us (the elements in the environment that help us do the work of surviving), along with proto-forms of language, craft, art and metaphysics, all emerging out of early human neurological competencies (e.g. discrete pitch perception, entrainment, etc.).

Now we like to believe in modern human exceptionalism and that culture is a trait that only belongs to homo sapiens, but there is evidence that earlier humans such as Neanderthals also had such competencies. Philosophers and even composers have pointed to the fact that other animal species display competencies that give rise to language-like and music-like activities (see A Thousand Plateaus by Deleuze and Guattari or the work of Jakob von Uexküll and others on biosemiotics).

So what about AI? We tend to conceive of AI as mimicking human skills and competencies without the benefits and limitations of our biology. This is also perhaps why we find it so threatening -- it is the doppelganger, the fake, the copy that threatens to take the place of original.

The tracks listed above are great imitations of human musicking but I wonder if something more interesting could be produced by an AI with sophisticated consciousness: music that is fundamentally non-human, not a copy and not bound by our _umwelt, _but an expression of some other conception of pitch, rhythm, and the universe itself. 

Now that would be exciting.


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## José Herring (Dec 30, 2020)

I think where AI can assist you in producing music, I'm fine with that idea. It's essentially what we do with DAWS anyway only DAWS are pretty stupid.

But...if an AI is going to assist me in writing music as horrible and as generic as what I heard on this playlist, mmmmm....I think I'll just give it the task of making sure my coffee is ready in the morning.


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## Tremendouz (Dec 30, 2020)

I just want an AI that can create more round robin samples for my string spiccatos on the fly


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## Polkasound (Dec 30, 2020)

KarlHeinz said:


> But where is the source of "sacred" ?


It's going to be different for everyone. For example, I use virtual instruments extensively, I use pitch correction software to polish vocal tracks, and sometimes to save time I'll import a MIDI groove pattern if it's one that I could have created from scratch. But I won't use construction kits, prerecorded loops, or AI.

If I had been born twenty or thirty years later, I'd probably be fine with using all those tools, because using them has become the norm. One trip down the rabbit hole of Sound Cloud will reveal the legions of young, obscure bedroom producers all over the world churning out cookie-cutter EDM and hip-hop tracks in massive quantities. If I were 20 years old right now, I'd probably be one of them.

But I grew up before making music became assembling store-bought beats or letting artificial intelligence compose for me. Therefore "sacred" to me means creating entirely from my _own_ intelligence so that my music can be a true example of my creativity. If I bring loops and AI into the creation process, then my music will feel more like an end product rather than an extension of myself.


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## joebaggan (Dec 30, 2020)

AI may not cut it with art music, but for this "media" music I always hear about on this site, AI generated music is absolutely going to be a big thing. So much of the soundtrack music in TV and movies currently created by humans is generic derivative rubbish, that most consumers aren't going to be able to tell the difference whether it's AI or not, and media companies are going to love how cheap AI music is. Most consumers who aren't musicians or don't care much about music aren't watching tv/movies for the music - it's just wallpaper for them, and AI will be able to do wallpaper pretty darn well eventually. There will be some good jobs for programmers who know how to create the algorithms though ( "epic" soundtrack algorithm should be a pretty easy one! ).


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## telecode101 (Dec 30, 2020)

..


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## mikeh-375 (Dec 31, 2020)

Polkasound said:


> ..................But I grew up before making music became assembling store-bought beats or letting artificial intelligence compose for me. Therefore "sacred" to me means creating entirely from my _own_ intelligence so that my music can be a true example of my creativity. If I bring loops and AI into the creation process, then my music will feel more like an end product rather than an extension of myself.


Yep, that's what'll get lost with AI's involvement if composers are not judicious and that will be to the detriment of not just the act of composing, but the individual too. Imv, there is a personal journey and a satisfaction of great value that should be treasured and preserved in music created by ones musical wits alone.


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## ReleaseCandidate (Dec 31, 2020)

Polkasound said:


> If I bring loops and AI into the creation process, then my music will feel more like an end product rather than an extension of myself.


Stockhausen and Varese would like to have a word with you


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## mikeh-375 (Dec 31, 2020)

AI is used by Ferneyhough...If you've never heard of him or his music, prepare yourself as this music is not from Kansas.


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## AudioLoco (Dec 31, 2020)

mikeh-375 said:


> AI is used by Ferneyhough...If you've never heard of him or his music, prepare yourself as this music is not from Kansas.



Take me back to Kansas


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## mikeh-375 (Dec 31, 2020)

^^^I offer no comment but do have an intellectual interest in Ferneyhough. Music _can_ be listened to in different ways. Ah I see you've edited your [email protected]


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## AudioLoco (Dec 31, 2020)

mikeh-375 said:


> ^^^I offer no comment but do have an intellectual interest in Ferneyhough. Music _can_ be listened to in different ways.


I apologize mikeh, it was harsh, edited, still drinking coffee... (maybe that's way I got so irritated hahah)

I still cannot bare listening to it, but each to their own I guess...


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## mikeh-375 (Dec 31, 2020)

^^no prob, I wasn't offended at all. Ferneyhough is as wild and as niche as it gets really. I like to listen to music like this as spatial and timbral sound design more than anything else. Honestly, with a lot of familiarity, it's possible to get into it, whether you want to get familiar with it is another matter entirely.


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## cmillar (Dec 31, 2020)

About 20 years ago Quincy Jones was lamenting how pop music (specifically hip hop, r&b, and rap) had become so lame and uninteresting.

I paraphrase, but he said “...the problem with today’s so-called musicians and producers is that most of them have never actually played a real instrument. They don’t know what it’s like to interact with other humans creating music, how you have to breath together, phrase together, ....have an actual physical relationship to music... they’re slaves to the machines...”

It seems that things have only gotten worse since then, except I daresay that the worst offenders are a lot of “composers” working for film and TV projects.

Or, at least, the ‘copycats’ and ‘wannabes’ and sample libraries that churn out easy-to-assemble copy-and-paste libraries that emulate whatever‘s in vogue are the worst offenders as they mindlessly download, cut and paste, edit, and then turn out a “score” overnight wholly in order to please “The Man” (or big media conglomerate)

A.I. can certainly churn out more of the same very easily. And sadly most if the public will never know “if it’s real” or whatever. (...I’m guilty of this as well for full disclosure)

Anyways, there might be a reason why Quincy Jones’s past musical projects truly changed musical history and are still totally satisfying to listen to these many years later. He pushed musical boundaries and had fellow musicians (real people who were masters of their respective instruments) contributing ideas and working with him. 

He knew what it was like to perform and breath and play with real musicians himself. 

A human connection. Creativity.... not just “re-creativity”.

Something to to ponder as this year comes to a close and we move into a new year.

If you think A.I. is ever going to ‘create’ something truly unique or memorable, knock yourselves out... go ahead and spend years of your life pursuing that goal of having a machine truly replace you and any need for any real musicians. Spend years learning how to draw velocity curves and creating articulation maps (...guilty here again)

Knock yourself out. Buy the most powerful computer you can. Get a computer science degree along the way. Buy the latest loops and more hard drives. See if your music is indistinguishable from any other hundred thousand “composers” in the end.

Happy New Years! Tonight, people around the world will most likely be listening to real music created by real people from the past tonight, either live or on recordings.

....because it makes them feel human and alive.

Thanks Quincy!


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