# Cubase 12 update: Threadripper 3970x build notes and benchmarks



## funnybear (Jun 20, 2020)

*Cubase 12 update:*

I have re-tested my benchmarks below on Cubase 12.0:

Cubase 12 seems to have finally fixed the threading issue and I am now able to activate ASIO Guard without having to switch of Hyperthreading. This means all 64 threads are available to Cubase.


Switching ASIO Guard OFF with Hyperthreading ON still seems to limit Cubase 12 to using only 18 threads for real time processing (and I suspect that even with Asio Guard ON, real time processing is still limited to 18 threads with the rest of the threads used for ASIO Guard processing).


In terms of benchmarks (at 256 / 64 / 48 ASIO buffer size) using the same project files as below:
Omnishpere 2: 380 / 370 / 360 instances
Kontakt 6: 347 / 344 / 339 instances (17350, 17200, 16950 voices)
Padshop: 367, 356, 355 instances
Diva: 126, 128, 125 instances 


So bottom-line, performance with Kontakt has improved quite a bit, with Diva a bit but Padshop and Omnisphere performance has decreased.



*Original June 2020 post:*
===================================================

A few months ago, I built my new AMD Threadripper 3970x PC to run Cubase.

Here are some build notes and Cubase benchmarks some of you might find useful.

You might remember that Pete Kaine from Scan ran some DAW benchmarks recently where he excluded the latest Threadrippers as he was running into problems with the CPUs. So there have been some questions floating around whether this CPU is a good match for DAW use and Cubase specifically.

*In summary:* the build has been rock-solid running Cubase 10.5.20 with no glitches, drop-outs, BSOD or other gremlins whatsoever. Performance with Cubase is great with these build specs and BIOS configs. Benchmarks below.


*Build details*:

CPU:AMD Threadripper 3970x
RAM: G.Skill 64GB 3600 Quad-KIT F4-3600C16Q-64Gtznc
Motherboard: MSI Creator TRX40
GPU: MSI GeForce RTX 2070 TRI FROZR
OS SSD: Samsung 970 EVO Plus 2TB NVMe
Data SSDs: Samsung 970 EVO 1TB NVMe, Samsung 860 EVO 2TB SATA, Samsung 850 EVO 1TB SATA, 2 x Crucial MX500 2TB SATA
PSU: Seasonic PRIME TX 1000 Watt 80+ Titanium
Case: Fractal Design R6
CPU cooling: Noctua NH-U14S TR4-SP3 (single fan)
Thermal paste: Grizzly Kryonaut
Case fans: Noctua NF-A14 PWM 2 x front + 1 x back
USB card: Sonnet USB3-4PM-E Allegro PCI-e
Audio interface: RME Babyface Pro
OS: Windows 10 64 bit version 2004 clean install


*Cubase benchmark results:*

Following are some Cubase benchmark tests. You can download the project files here. Obviously, performance will depend on your actual workflow, project signal paths / FX chains used. But useful to compare to other CPUs.

All tests are with:

Cubase 10.5.20
ASIO buffer size tested at 256, 64 and 48 samples
ASIO-guard "on" and set to "high"
no armed tracks
44.1kHz sample rate
24 bit rate
CPU hyperthreading turned off (see build notes below), no CPU overclocking, RAM at 3600Mhz

*Omnisphere 2:*

"Agape Warmth" preset
5 stock insert effects on each track (StudioEQ, Tremolo, Limiter, Compressor, RoomWorks)
*Max instances at 256 / 64 / 48 ASIO buffer size: 430 / 410 / 400*

*Kontakt 6:*

Metropolis Ark 1 "Strings High Spiccato Unison" with the default 2 mic positions with all layers (mf + f + fff) turned on. This produces about 50 voices of polyphony played per track.
*Max instances at 256 / 64 / 48 ASIO buffer size: 285 / 270 / 260 (corresponds to voice polyphony of ca.: 14,250, 13,500 and 13,000)*

*Padshop:*

"Airy Bell" preset
*Max instances at 256 / 64 / 48 ASIO buffer size: 1120, 1050, 1040*

*U-He Diva:*

"HS Albert Hall Mini" preset
multicore "on", "divine" accuracy
*Max instances at 256 / 64 / 48 ASIO buffer size: 125, 110, 120 (yes, more instances at 48 buffer compared to 64 buffer !?!)*


*Build and config notes:*

*Switch off hyperthreading*: Out of the box, with hyperthreading on, Cubase's ASIO-guard does not function properly. Turning off ASIO-guard improves performance. However, once hyperthreading is disabled in the BIOS, ASIO-guard can be turned back on and performance increases to a totally different ballgame allowing to reach CPU saturation of almost 100% without drop-outs (all 32 cores are fully loaded). The only downside is that when hyperthreading is disabled, AMD Zen chips no longer support S3 sleep state which means you cannot put your PC to sleep any more.


*USB audio interface*: Because RME recommends using FL1100 chipset based USB3 controllers, I am using a Sonnet card which only has my RME Babyface Pro connected to it. An advantage of this card is that it uses MSI (message signalled interrupts) which has advantages under high IRQ load. I also tested connecting the Babyface to one of the motherboard USB ports and performance seemed fine (did not test a great deal though as I prefer to keep my interface isolated).


*RAM speed*: I am running my RAM at 3600Mhz which allows the CPU's IF/FCLK frequency to run at 1800mhz. This gives a significant performance boost in Cubase. Although the 3d generation AMD Zen chips have much better RAM support you must use RAM that is officially supported by your motherboard. I am waiting for a 256GB 3600Mhz kit down the road.


*Noise*: The choice of case and fans make for a very silent machine. I am sitting right next to the PC and I can hardly hear it. I have set the fan profiles in the BIOS so that they stay at inaudible RPM levels during normal operation. When the machine is under full load it is still very silent considering 32 cores are churning away. The GPU fans remain off until GPU temperature rises above 60 degrees which happens only when I run some GPU accelerated encoding or data science job. The motherboard has a chipset fan that is inaudible, and I assume it is off most of the time. There is no active cooling on this motherboard for the VRM.


*CPU overclocking*: I did manage to overclock the CPU to an all-core 4.2Ghz while keeping CPU temperatures below 90 degrees under full load. This gives extra headroom but given the monstrous performance of the CPU at stock speeds it is not worth it for me and I prefer a more silent machine.


*Motherboard choice*: MSI and Asus motherboards have the best DCP latency performance (Asus is slightly better). However, the power stages on the MSI are better compared to the mid-level Asus board (although Asus is about to release new versions with improved power stages such as the updated PRIME TRX40-PRO S). I also chose MSI as it allows to deactivate internal audio and WIFI at BIOS level and has a 10GBit Ethernet port.


*Graphics card*: Because I use this machine also for some data science stuff, I chose Nvidia over AMD for the GPU even though AMD is often said to offer lower DPC latency. But now that Nvidia offers Studio Drivers that can be installed without any of the driver bloat, GPU related DCP latency has not been an issue for me. But you need to correctly de-install the default Nvidia drivers that install when first installing the OS and then correctly install the Studio Drivers. I had no need for any other GPU driver tweaks.


*Other BIOS settings*: I deactivated the internal audio card, Wi-Fi (Bluetooth deactivated in Windows) to remove IRQs that might impact DCP latency.


*OS power plan:* Cubase performance did not change whether using Steinberg, Ryzen or Microsoft power plans. I actually use the "Power saver" plan in day to day use and only switch to a higher performance power plan when I really need to push the machine.


----------



## Manaberry (Jun 21, 2020)

Great feedback, thanks for sharing with us 
I was very curious about your CPU, glad you are bringing some results to the table.
I'm going to try your ARK 1 project file to see how my 10980XE behaves compare to your 32 cores.


_EDIT:_
10980XE @ 4.4 all cores (HT on), 8x16 LPX CL16 @ 3200, W10 1909 (and custom optimizations) with an Apollo x6, 44.1 / 24 bit.

There is a huge gap between 32 and 64, but I'm amazed to see how far my CPU can go at 64

*32 / 64 / 256* (buffer size) - *15000 / 30900 / 33900* (voices)


----------



## funnybear (Jun 21, 2020)

Manaberry said:


> *32 / 64 / 256* (buffer size) - *15000 / 30900 / 33900* (voices)



Great results!


----------



## Cat (Jun 21, 2020)

Wow! So the 18 cores Intel CPU absolutely smokes the 32 cores AMD at 256 buffer size.

EDIT: I suspect that with a RME Audio interface the result could get even better....


----------



## funnybear (Jun 21, 2020)

Yes, great results especially since Scan's DAWBench puts the 10980XE Kontakt polyphony at only 4540 voices at 256 buffer.

Maybe the OC at 4.4 all-core explains it?


----------



## Manaberry (Jun 21, 2020)

That's the OC yes. The CPU runs at 3.0 all cores using factory settings. 1.4 GHz is a HUGE performance boost.
Also, I've noticed that around 550 instances, the CPU was at 100% usage but wasn't that much hot. I got like 15% of the ASIO meter left. So I tried with more instances, and it worked... Around 650, the temperature was much higher as I reached the ASIO limit before drops out and audio glitches.

It seems like Windows showed me 100% usage but in reality, I got like 10/15% of headroom @ 256. I was quite surprised, to be honest.




Cat said:


> EDIT: I suspect that with a RME Audio interface the result could get even better....




I cannot try, but it would be interesting!


----------



## Manaberry (Jun 21, 2020)

@funnybear Is your CPU too huge for HT with Cubase? I tried with HT off, and it was clearly a downgrade.


----------



## funnybear (Jun 21, 2020)

Manaberry said:


> @funnybear Is your CPU too huge for HT with Cubase? I tried with HT off, and it was clearly a downgrade.



Cubase seems to have a thread scheduling issue at the moment on my Threadrunner with hyperthreading turned on. Performance with HT on is much worse compared to switching it off.

Did you try to run the Diva test project? Would be interested to see how they compare as Diva is known to be a real CPU hog.


----------



## Manaberry (Jun 21, 2020)

funnybear said:


> Did you try to run the Diva test project? Would be interested to see how they compare as Diva is known to be a real CPU hog.




Not yet but, good idea. I'm on it!


----------



## jononotbono (Jun 21, 2020)

Thank you for doing this. I’m still stressing my brain as to go Threadripper, Ryzen or Intel. It’s actually exhausting doing so much research.


----------



## Manaberry (Jun 21, 2020)

@funnybear

256 / 114 instances
64 / 110 instances
32 / 110 instances

I can't go higher. One more instance and it cracks like hell haha. 110 seems to be the limit of Diva instances for my CPU.
I don't have Omnisphere, and Padshop is not installed. I can try with SINE player if needed using ARK 1? It would be nice to see how SINE handles the voices compare to Kontakt.


----------



## funnybear (Jun 21, 2020)

That's very interesting. I think overall it confirms my suspicion that the 10980XE is still the better choice as the top DAW platform especially if you can overclock it and keep it in a server room.

I use my machine also for other things besides music and made my choice based on that dual use case.

But the power is insane these days on these top CPU platforms. If only my creativity would scale equally!


----------



## Manaberry (Jun 21, 2020)

Your TR must be amazing with some 3D software or any renderer. Have you tried CineBench R20?

(I'm curious about Windows 2004, updating right now)


----------



## funnybear (Jun 21, 2020)

Manaberry said:


> Have you tried CineBench R20?



CineBench R20 (multicore) comes in at 16,314 without overclocking.


----------



## jononotbono (Jun 21, 2020)

funnybear said:


> That's very interesting. I think overall it confirms my suspicion that the 10980XE is still the better choice as the top DAW platform especially if you can overclock it and keep it in a server room.
> 
> I use my machine also for other things besides music and made my choice based on that dual use case.
> 
> But the power is insane these days on these top CPU platforms. If only my creativity would scale equally!



Yeah I’m now thinking about the 10980XE again instead of Threadripper. It’s a minefield choosing this stuff!


----------



## Manaberry (Jun 21, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> Yeah I’m now thinking about the 10980XE again instead of Threadripper. It’s a minefield choosing this stuff!


If you need further tests or something, feel free to ask!


----------



## jononotbono (Jun 21, 2020)

Manaberry said:


> If you need further tests or something, feel free to ask!



What’s max ram supported with one?


----------



## Damarus (Jun 22, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> Yeah I’m now thinking about the 10980XE again instead of Threadripper. It’s a minefield choosing this stuff!



If you don't absolutely need it soon, ryzen 4000 and intel 10nm is going to be much better


----------



## jononotbono (Jun 22, 2020)

Damarus said:


> If you don't absolutely need it soon, ryzen 4000 and intel 10nm is going to be much better



When are these new processors being released?


----------



## novaburst (Jun 22, 2020)

funnybear said:


> *CPU overclocking*: I did manage to overclock the CPU to an all-core 4.2Ghz while keeping CPU temperatures below 90 degrees under full load. This gives extra headroom but given the monstrous performance of the CPU at stock speeds it is not worth it for me and I prefer a more silent machine.



I think anything over 60 degrees is pretty dangerous and will help degradation of the AMD, so anything that can bring the heat under 50 I think will be welcome, and that would also be in hot atmosphere, 

Point being the machine at most is on form morning to the next morning near everyday,


----------



## Damarus (Jun 22, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> When are these new processors being released?



Probably late 2020


----------



## averystemmler (Jun 22, 2020)

novaburst said:


> I think anything over 60 degrees is pretty dangerous and will help degradation of the AMD



Do you have a source or something that led you to that particular figure? I've been speccing out a new Ryzen PC, with the goal of quietness (i.e., low fan speeds, higher heat). I've always considered 60ish celsius to be an acceptable operating temperature under load, but I'd like to know if there's something different about the new AMDs.


----------



## Manaberry (Jun 22, 2020)

averystemmler said:


> Do you have a source or something that led you to that particular figure? I've been speccing out a new Ryzen PC, with the goal of quietness (i.e., low fan speeds, higher heat). I've always considered 60ish celsius to be an acceptable operating temperature under load, but I'd like to know if there's something different about the new AMDs.



The official AMD website says Max Temp should be 95°C for the 3970X. Of course, the lower you get, the better. But remember that @ stock settings, the CPU avoids itself going that high in temperature by modulating its core frequency.


----------



## novaburst (Jun 23, 2020)

averystemmler said:


> Do you have a source or something that led you to that particular figure? I've been speccing out a new Ryzen PC, with the goal of quietness (i.e., low fan speeds, higher heat). I've always considered 60ish celsius to be an acceptable operating temperature under load, but I'd like to know if there's something different about the new AMDs.



I think even if you were using Intel a low heat practice is always good. 

Especially if your going to sell the machine on in the future 

I think I would try to move the machine as far away from me as possible and switch Fan speeds to max, with while trying to lower overclock speed, or if you have turned up voltage put back to default, 

Some times it's all about the case, and how spacious it is with lots of air can give you 20 to 35% more lower temps. 

I remember doing a new build and purchased a new case but was pretty compact temps were OK but just on the border of what I would call comfortable. 

I changed the new case for my old case that was much larger in size and had more case fan options and just that gave me a huge temp drop to the point my MB fan does not activate.

Yes I can hear the machine but I don't mind as I have head set on most of the time, but I know machine noise can be annoying so move your machine away from you as far as possible,


----------



## averystemmler (Jun 23, 2020)

novaburst said:


> I think even if you were using Intel a low heat practice is always good.
> 
> Especially if your going to sell the machine on in the future
> 
> ...



Sadly, I have a pretty low tolerance for noise when I'm trying to work. In a previous space, I went so far as to build a temporary, pressure-fit decoupled wall between my PCs and my working area. That certainly worked, but I had a whole lot of drywall to get rid of when I moved out.

For the past 3 years, I've had a master and a slave both stuffed in a closet. Weirdly, I've noticed no measurable differences in temperature (usually around 60C at my average usage) at the CPU package, and the older of the two (i7 3770k) has been going strong for about 8 years now. I built them both in massive, incredibly inconvenient cases with huge fans. They move lots of air and are fairly quiet (large fans, lower RPMs), but are still slightly too loud through the hollow core closet door - which I have to be right next to, due to usb, FW, and HDMI cable limits.

My thinking is, similar to yours, that I can be father away from the louder PCs if I have a master that is nearly silent sitting on my desk. All I'd need running to my slave PCs is an Ethernet cable.

I'm fairly confident that I can build a quiet PC with a current gen Ryzen (currently leaning towards the 3900, not TR), but I've been trying to get a sense for its limits. No plans to overclock it (obviously), but I suppose the details will just come down to trial and error at some point. If I pull the trigger, I'll post a thread with my experiences.


----------



## Pictus (Jun 23, 2020)

averystemmler said:


> Sadly, I have a pretty low tolerance for noise when I'm trying to work.



Here I use the motherboard custom FAN curve to keep the FANS at lower RPM and
make sure to set the FANs type properly in the BIOS, PWM(4 pins) or DC(3 pins).
With a custom water cooler kit you can place the pump/radiator/fans into
another room for ultimate silence.
With a BIG radiator you probably will be able to use it passive or
with big/slow RPM fans.








Alphacool NexXxoS XT45 Full Copper 1260mm SuperNova Radiator


Groß, Größer, SuperNova! 400 x 400 x 45 mm reine Kühlfläche für neun 140 oder vier 200 mm Lüfter. Kein weiterer Alphacool Radiator bietet derart viel Kühlfläche am Stück. Kompromisslos bei der Materialwahl Wie gewohnt, setzt Alphacool...




www.alphacool.com


----------



## Synetos (Jun 23, 2020)

averystemmler said:


> Sadly, I have a pretty low tolerance for noise when I'm trying to work.
> 
> For the past 3 years, I've had a master and a slave both stuffed in a closet.
> 
> My thinking is, similar to yours, that I can be father away from the louder PCs if I have a master that is nearly silent sitting on my desk. All I'd need running to my slave PCs is an Ethernet cable.


I have been able to get around the usb limits by using USB over Ethernet. I have all my audio interfaces and Soundgrid server rack mounted in a closet, and my PC's are in an adjacent room. It is the same space the band jams in. I actually track vocals and acoustic guitars, right in my control room now.
I made it super quiet by getting everything out. 

To do that, I made 3" port holes cut in the walls just about the baseboard. Used a circle cutter and then put 3" galvanized duct through and capped each side with 3" white cord grommets. It looks nice. keeps everything in the other rooms. You can also get HDMI extenders that amplify the signal for longer runs, and run USB over ethernet. 

Noit a fan of the Master DAW under my desk. Even with my Master PC (built in a HAF case with big noctura fan, it was noticeable over the dead quiet room. My control room is well treated with GIK panels, and it is super quiet. I am spoiled by that, and therefore moved everything out. The loudest noise now, a slight hiss from JBL4328p that I use for monitors.

I am also running a 7980XE/128gb ram for my main DAW, but only OC to 3.8ghz. It stays under 60c/140f, most of the time. I run my daw at 44.1k 64samples with a RT latency of 5.2ms. I am also running VEP7 and offloading most plugs to a Soundgrid Extreme server. 

My ears are happy, Cubase is happy...everything is happy.


----------



## averystemmler (Jun 23, 2020)

Synetos said:


> I have been able to get around the usb limits by using USB over Ethernet. I have all my audio interfaces and Soundgrid server rack mounted in a closet, and my PC's are in an adjacent room. It is the same space the band jams in. I actually track vocals and acoustic guitars, right in my control room now.
> I made it super quiet by getting everything out.
> 
> To do that, I made 3" port holes cut in the walls just about the baseboard. Used a circle cutter and then put 3" galvanized duct through and capped each side with 3" white cord grommets. It looks nice. keeps everything in the other rooms. You can also get HDMI extenders that amplify the signal for longer runs, and run USB over ethernet.
> ...



Thanks for that! I've been wondering about USB over ethernet. HDMI too. I remember running video over Cat 5e at an old A/V installation job years ago, but don't remember exactly what we used.

I actually have HAF cases on both of my PCs right now and, while I don't have noctua fans in them, they are definitely too loud if not partitioned away. Though, that may also be the fault of my stock CPU coolers, or the tiny annoying motherboard chipset fan. Always something new to spend money on. 

My hope is that the Fractal Design or BeQuiet cases, with Noctuas at extra low RPM, are as effective as they claim to be, and may muffle the noise somewhat - at least to below the noise floor of my quiet-but-imperfect room. From my research, it is possible to get a largely passive system under some amount of load (and Impact Soundworks has that entirely fanless PC in the works), but I fully expect to compromise performance to accomplish it.

I should probably stop derailing the Threadripper thread, but I appreciate all the input!


----------



## Raphioli (Jun 28, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> What’s max ram supported with one?


Officially its 256GB.

Then I saw an article several months back about someone running 1TB on an Asrock motherboard...








Overclocker Gets 1TB of RAM Running on X299 Motherboard Limited to 256GB


Pushing memory boundaries.




www.tomshardware.com





Its not officially supported of course, and on top of a specific motherboard, you might need RAM with a specific chip with a specific die or something (which I'm not familiar with at all).


----------



## jononotbono (Jun 28, 2020)

Raphioli said:


> Officially its 256GB.
> 
> Then I saw an article several months back about someone running 1TB on an Asrock motherboard...
> 
> ...



Ok so what matches a Mac Pro and having the option the put 1.5tb of ram in the machine?Anything close? 1tb? Something that will work with Cubase?


----------



## Raphioli (Jun 28, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> Ok so what matches a Mac Pro and having the option the put 1.5tb of ram in the machine?Anything close? 1tb? Something that will work with Cubase?



If you want official support for TBs of RAM, then I guess the only way is to go with Xeon (not sure about AMD).
I also remember reading that if you want 1.5TB+ support, you need to choose specific Xeon chips with "M" at the end.
You can simply compare the same CPU with and without an "M" here. (Look at the Max Memory Size section)
"W-3275" (without "M")








Product Specifications


quick reference guide including specifications, features, pricing, compatibility, design documentation, ordering codes, spec codes and more.




ark.intel.com




"W-3275M"(this one is on the 28core Mac Pro)








Product Specifications


quick reference guide including specifications, features, pricing, compatibility, design documentation, ordering codes, spec codes and more.




ark.intel.com





For example, with 2019 Mac Pros, you need to choose the 24 core(W3265M) or the 28 core(W3275M) in order to use 1.5TB.

If you look at the Intels ARK website, it says W3235(12 core), W3245 (16core) only supports up to 1TB.
In Mac Pros, I think its limited to 768GB.








Product Specifications


quick reference guide including specifications, features, pricing, compatibility, design documentation, ordering codes, spec codes and more.




ark.intel.com




https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/193753/intel-xeon-w-3245-processor-22m-cache-3-20-ghz.htmlSo wether you're going Mac or Windows, be sure to look at the maximum RAM support on Intels ARK website.

I would personally just go Mac (or just someone like DELL/HP do it for you) if you're going to buy an expensive CPU like W-3275M.
The only reason to custom build a PC is if you like doing it or to keep the price range within a HEDT build (***** lake-x, threadripper etc).
If you're going above that, I'd rather let a professional build it so that when I have problems with it, I can just send it to them and they can do all the troubleshooting.


----------



## jononotbono (Jun 28, 2020)

Raphioli said:


> If you want official support for TBs of RAM, then I guess the only way is to go with Xeon (not sure about AMD).
> I also remember reading that if you want 1.5TB+ support, you need to choose specific Xeon chips with "M" at the end.
> You can simply compare the same CPU with and without an "M" here. (Look at the Max Memory Size section)
> "W-3275" (without "M")
> ...



Thank you.

I will look at this tomorrow. You are a reason why I love this forum. You know your shit!


----------



## KEM (Jun 30, 2020)

Thanks for this, I’m planning a very similar build that I’m gonna buy in the next couple of months



https://pcpartpicker.com/list/HPx4f9


----------



## Pictus (Jun 30, 2020)

KEM said:


> Thanks for this, I’m planning a very similar build that I’m gonna buy in the next couple of months
> 
> 
> 
> https://pcpartpicker.com/list/HPx4f9



Threadripper is quad channel and works best with 4 RAM sticks.
The best(less taxing for the memory controller) RAM for AMD is Micron E-dye, most
found in Crucial RAM sticks.

RAM recommendations for AMD Ryzen and Intel Core
It is for Ryzen, but if it is good for Ryzen, bad for Threadripper it is not.








RAM-Empfehlungen für AMD Ryzen und Intel Core


Welches RAM-Kit kaufen? Auch für den Juli 2020 gibt es wieder Empfehlungen aus dem ComputerBase-Forum für die Community.




www.computerbase.de





A 240mm radiator for a 24 core CPU does not look a good match for me...


----------



## KEM (Jun 30, 2020)

Pictus said:


> Threadripper is quad channel and works best with 4 RAM sticks.
> The best(less taxing for the memory controller) RAM for AMD is Micron E-dye, most
> found in Crucial RAM sticks.
> 
> ...



Feel free to make some edits and stuff, I want to get the best computer I can while staying in that price range.


----------



## Pictus (Jul 1, 2020)

KEM said:


> Feel free to make some edits and stuff, I want to get the best computer I can while staying in that price range.


Made with stuff current available in the site


https://pcpartpicker.com/list/n96qZf


The PSU has the all the connectors for motherboard, the case has USB Type-C, space
to place the radiator in front and still use the Blu-Ray Writer.


----------



## KEM (Jul 1, 2020)

Pictus said:


> Made with stuff current available in the site
> 
> 
> https://pcpartpicker.com/list/n96qZf
> ...



Sweet thanks!


----------



## Pictus (Jul 2, 2020)

KEM said:


> Sweet thanks!


You are welcome, I forgot to mention that if you need a GPU
this one is passive, no fan





MSI GeForce GT 1030 2 GB 2GH LP OC Video Card







pcpartpicker.com





This one is semi-passive, the fans only turn-on when hot doing gaming 


https://pcpartpicker.com/product/tF648d/xfx-radeon-rx-570-4gb-rs-xxx-video-card-rx-570p427d6



The AMD driver is less bloated and it is easy to only install the driver leaving the bloat out.


----------



## Hendrixon (Jul 15, 2020)

This is very depressing.... I hoped to show Intel the finger after all those years they milked us well
Apart from that, please help me make sense of the numbers you guys show here.
First of all, why scanproaudio's benchmarks barely makes it to a polyphony of 5k at 512(!) samples buffer, while you guys reach 10k-30k at 64 samples?
At scanproaudio's benchmarks - over all - most cpus scale up in performance as buffers grow, here it seems the 3970X don't scale *at all*, while the 10980XE don't scale above 64 samples?

Something seems wrong with the Threadreaper, it managed to pull just half the performance (at VI) of the Intel, while it has double the physical cores and it is designed to do one thing very well, and that is to transfers large chunks of data... way more then the Intel's desktop silicons.
It would be interesting if someone here with a 3950X (or even 3900X) can run this same benchmark, to shed more light on the TR performance.

And an observation:
Man, if someone is in dire need to upgrade the PC (like moi), this is the _worst time_ for him/her.
AMD will show the next gen Ryzen (4000) later this year, so months from now, add to that few more months until they will hit shelves world wide + the corona virus who refuses to let go... bummer.
So why wait? because the next Ryzen SHOULD have:
- better performance per cycle
- better latency (more cores will share the same on die cache)
- higher clocks
In essence all the things that will benefit our little niche use (this should fix the performance hole we see in the benchmarks at mid buffer settings). 

Sounds good, right? well sort off, cause apart from the months of waiting, the AM4 platform, that will carry the 4000 cpus, will be done here. Ryzen 5000 will see a new platform, which means investing in a high end (read expensive) AM4 system "now", will not be upgradable anymore.


As I said, very depressing


----------



## Anthony (Sep 27, 2020)

Hendrixon said:


> This is very depressing.... I hoped to show Intel the finger after all those years they milked us well
> Apart from that, please help me make sense of the numbers you guys show here.
> First of all, why scanproaudio's benchmarks barely makes it to a polyphony of 5k at 512(!) samples buffer, while you guys reach 10k-30k at 64 samples?
> At scanproaudio's benchmarks - over all - most cpus scale up in performance as buffers grow, here it seems the 3970X don't scale *at all*, while the 10980XE don't scale above 64 samples?
> ...


Hi, Did you ever find answers to the above questions?

I too am trying to decide which platform (AMD vs Intel) and CPU generation to go with.


----------



## Hendrixon (Sep 27, 2020)

Nope, as you see no one responded.

I decided on building a strong machine that will last me years, so the expense will be high.
Considering that, and that my post above was in July, I decided I'm NOT going to invest in AMD Gen 2 because of the latency issue in the architecture (or current Threadripper, cause it seems the software side is not yet optimized for over 32 threads).
I was ready to give Intel my money again (as the 10980XE performance seems to be a sure bet, cost not considered), but with AMD Gen 3 being said to NOT be delayed to 2021, this could (in my July thoughts) might bring an Intel expected counter move (be it out of the blue 10nm cpus or a radical price slash of the 10980XE)...

So biting my tongue for up to 6 month was the best logical move, as Gen 3 seeing the light of day and Intel's counter move should be reviled up to the end of 2020.

So, how things look now, what do we know 3 months till the end of 2020?
On Intel's side 7nm is not even on the horizon and 10nm desktops is pushed to second half 2021!!!
I won't be shocked if Intel will drop the desktop 10nm stage and just invest everything in making 7nm a viable option... and till then just suck it up.
If they won't do that? they will get 7nm out the door after 3 years of 7nm Gen 3 and see first steps of 5nm Gen 4.

For us mosquitoes it means we can only expect a war price from Intel, and that will (maybe) happen after Gen 3 will hit the stores, hopefully in the next 2-3 months. by then the choice will be a lower latency AMD (compared to current Gen 2), or a price slashed 10 gen 14nm Intel.

And we wait.....................................


----------



## Alex Sopala (Sep 27, 2020)

Hendrixon said:


> Nope, as you see no one responded.
> 
> I decided on building a strong machine that will last me years, so the expense will be high.
> Considering that, and that my post above was in July, I decided I'm NOT going to invest in AMD Gen 2 because of the latency issue in the architecture (or current Threadripper, cause it seems the software side is not yet optimized for over 32 threads).
> ...



I'm hopeful that the latency issues will be corrected with Gen 3 Threadripper using a unified cache. Either way, we'll have to wait and see.


----------



## Anthony (Sep 27, 2020)

@Hendrixon, Everything you just wrote underscores your previous post's sentiment that this is the worst time to upgrade a PC.

We're in an unfortunate era where AMD is showing signs of potential greatness but still has some issues to address (given their hitherto 'bridesmaid' status) whereas Intel is driving customers away given their monopoly-induced lethargy that has resulted in high prices, mediocre performance improvements over the last few CPU generations, lackluster support for the latest hardware specifications, an inability to carry out the next die shrink, as well as their failure to prevent (and later report!) major, performance-reducing hardware vulnerabilities (Meltdown).

Like you I want to switch to AMD but am afraid that doing so will involve "Threadripper Woes" discussed in: Core Wars! AMD & Intel CPUs Tested .


----------



## Alex Sopala (Sep 27, 2020)

Anthony said:


> @Hendrixon, Everything you just wrote underscores your previous post's sentiment that this is the worst time to upgrade a PC.
> 
> We're in an unfortunate era where AMD is showing signs of potential greatness but still has some issues to address (given their hitherto 'bridesmaid' status) whereas Intel is driving customers away given their monopoly-induced lethargy that has resulted in high prices, mediocre performance improvements over the last few CPU generations, lackluster support for the latest hardware specifications, an inability to carry out the next die shrink, as well as their failure to prevent (and later report!) major, performance-reducing hardware vulnerabilities (Meltdown).
> 
> Like you I want to switch to AMD but am afraid that doing so will involve "Threadripper Woes" discussed in: Core Wars! AMD & Intel CPUs Tested .



In all fairness though, we're one of the only use cases left that hasn't been addressed yet by AMD--People who want more than 16 cores and 128GB RAM and good latency. I wouldn't say it's the worst time to upgrade period, but this specific niche product that ticks most of the boxes doesn't tick the most important one for what we do--latency. That box is ticked on the X570 platform-type stuff (after the platform had some time to mature and it was figured out that AMD for our use case needs faster RAM), it's really just Threadripper, in my experience.


----------



## Anthony (Sep 27, 2020)

Alex Sopala said:


> In all fairness though, we're one of the only use cases left that hasn't been addressed yet by AMD--People who want more than 16 cores and 128GB RAM and good latency.


Yes, I agree (it's an insightful comment).



Alex Sopala said:


> I wouldn't say it's the worst time to upgrade period, but this specific niche product that ticks most of the boxes doesn't tick the most important one for what we do--latency. That box is ticked on the X570 platform-type stuff (after the platform had some time to mature and it was figured out that AMD for our use case needs faster RAM), it's really just Threadripper, in my experience.



To what extent has X570 eliminated low-latency issues? For example, will a 3950X + X570 combo still produce the constant crackling sound observed in some previous tests?

Lastly, the following potential problems are keeping me from switching to AMD:
- X570 PCIe 4.0 compatability with some older cards
- compatability between non-Intel controllers and older USB hardware
- VRM stability (given Threadripper's high core count)
- X570 chipset cooling fan noise

Have these issues been fully addressed by updates to the X570 platform (or is AMD still working on them)?


----------



## funnybear (Sep 27, 2020)

As I wrote in my post detailing my 3970x build details at the beginning of this thread, for me the platform has been rock solid with zero issues running Cubase with Hyper-threading off (I since tested with Reaper and Reaper seems to run fine with Hyper-threading on).

I did very carefully plan the build in terms of chosen components, BIOS config, drivers etc. though.

I do believe that Intel is a much safer bet in terms of getting system stability for DAW use right out of the door. But it certainly can be done with AMD but you need to be much more careful on how you put your system together.

If I would build a system purely for DAW use (I use my system for other things as well) I would go with Intel as of now. But that might change with the new AMD Zen generation coming next month.


----------



## Hendrixon (Sep 27, 2020)

Anthony said:


> @Hendrixon, Everything you just wrote underscores your previous post's sentiment that this is the worst time to upgrade a PC.



Sadly it IS the worst time if you have to upgrade **now** (like me).
Intel has to offer only 2014 era 14nm process, a dead end process that reached its limit regarding thermal and power dissipation. that will be the case at least till late 2021.
But 2021 means nothing for you if you will buy today's platform, as any faster cpu in the future will be a new process and thus a new platform.
So... Intel is dead end investment.

AMD brings out now the "hot and new" Gen/Zen 3, right?
Well Gen 3 is still the 7nm process, its the last core build to populate the AM4 platform.
Here we might see a bit faster cpus in the next couple of years if TSMC will be able to tweak the process a bit more.
Real next level architecture for desktop from AMD will be Gen/Zen 4, new socket, on 5mn process, supporting DDR5 and pcie 5 <<<< now that's the platform to get if you want future investment.
So... AMD even with Gen 3, not the best time to invest in a monster pc.


Well, I can't wait for that, so I'll have to invest in a monster pc now, without real upgrade future.


----------



## Hendrixon (Sep 27, 2020)

funnybear said:


> If I would build a system purely for DAW use (I use my system for other things as well) I would go with Intel as of now. But that might change with the new AMD Zen generation coming next month.



Exactly my thoughts.

Btw, I'm SURE your 3970x is a behemoth of a machine, and probably handle any work load, DAW or other, you throw at it  
But at least from the info I managed to find and digest, it does seem that cycle for cycle (not $ for $), at least for VI use, Intel is the way to go over Ryzen 3k and current Threadripper.

I wonder if/when AMD will ship the next TR based on Gen 3.


----------



## Alex Sopala (Sep 27, 2020)

Hendrixon said:


> Exactly my thoughts.
> 
> Btw, I'm SURE your 3970x is a behemoth of a machine, and probably handle any work load, DAW or other, you throw at it
> But at least from the info I managed to find and digest, it does seem that cycle for cycle (not $ for $), at least for VI use, Intel is the way to go over Ryzen 3k and current Threadripper.
> ...



They will, probably next year, a few months after the main release. They said there's no delays as far as getting stuff out, but it remains to be seen how strained their supply chains will end up once stuff is released.


----------



## tebling (Jan 11, 2021)

funnybear said:


> *Build and config notes:*
> 
> *Switch off hyperthreading*: Out of the box, with hyperthreading on, Cubase's ASIO-guard does not function properly. Turning off ASIO-guard improves performance. However, once hyperthreading is disabled in the BIOS, ASIO-guard can be turned back on and performance increases to a totally different ballgame allowing to reach CPU saturation of almost 100% without drop-outs (all 32 cores are fully loaded). The only downside is that when hyperthreading is disabled, AMD Zen chips no longer support S3 sleep state which means you cannot put your PC to sleep any more.


OMG, I can't thank you enough for this.

I've been pulling my hair out trying to figure out why my 3970x based DAW couldn't handle a Cubase project with a mere 63 instruments, even with ASIO buffer maxed out at 4096 samples.

I saw this note and became worried that I'd have to ditch the machine:









Performance issues with AMD Ryzen Threadripper 3970X and 3990X


Problem We have received reports of performance issues with the AMD Ryzen Threadripper 3970X and 3990X processors featuring 32/64 cores (64/128 threads). The system behaves as if Cubase/Nuendo is p...




helpcenter.steinberg.de





This was further backed up by seeing that all the DAW CPU load was on a single core ("cpu 64" in resource monitor).

Then I found your note, disabled SMT in the BIOS, rebooted, loaded up my project, and it was NIGHT AND DAY. Suddenly I can hit play with a 256 sample ASIO buffer and the ASIO meter is comfortably low, with no dropouts.

Beers are on me good sir!


----------



## funnybear (Jan 12, 2021)

tebling said:


> OMG, I can't thank you enough for this.



Glad it helped you.

The jury is still out if this Cubase problem is due to the specific CPU core topology Threadripper Zen 2 chips use (4 CCDs and one IOD) or due to the max threads issue that still seems to be rearing its head in Cubase (so turning of Hyperthreading reduces the available number of threads to the number that Cubase is able to deal with).

At least Steinberg have acknowledged the issue and have said they are working on it.

But for now, even using only 32 cores / threads, I have so much headroom available in terms of resources that it does not matter to me.


----------



## funnybear (Mar 3, 2022)

I have updated the benchmarks in the original post using Cubase 12.0.


----------



## Manaberry (Mar 3, 2022)

Seems to be a great update for your CPU!


----------



## funnybear (Mar 3, 2022)

Main bonus for me is that I can finally use ASIO Guard while running the CPU in Hyperthreading mode (which is my default mode as I need to use VMs on the machine which do not work without Hyperthreading on this CPU).

Performance wise I was already happy with the available overhead for the type of projects I run (don't use 1000s of Kontakt tracks etc.) but running Cubase without ASIO Guard was a bit clumsy.


----------



## Alex Temple (Mar 3, 2022)

I have the same CPU, and so far my real-world tests on projects that were close to bringing the system to its knees have been a bit inconclusive. Using a project that has a ton of VE pro returns, plugins, CPU-intensive synths, and time-stretched audio, testing ASIO guard at low and normal settings, I'm still a bit frustrated by the 18-thread soft cap that seems to exist, though I do get fewer dropouts at low latencies than I did in 11. It's not night and day, as I'd hoped it would be. Performance seemed a bit worse for me when I switched on hyperthreading - guess that makes sense since we are now making full use of 18/64 instead of 18/32.

I've been messing around with shortcuts that start the program with only certain threads enabled (with the goal of leaving the remaining cores exclusively for VE pro). Interestingly, if I give Cubase exactly 18 threads, the performance drops off a cliff - ASIO meters peak and it basically can't play back at all. However if I up it to 20 it works great.


----------



## funnybear (Mar 4, 2022)

I used Process Lasso with Cubase 10.5 to try and fix CPU core affinity to get around the threading issues while having Hyperthreading active.

It worked when setting core affinity just after a project was loaded, but as soon as a plugin was added / removed core affinity completely changed. So was not useful in the end.

Cubase 12 seems to use the same 18 thread affinity for real time processing consistently on the same cores between runs (only observed quickly so might be wrong).

I am sure the whole threading topic is in constant evolution for the core audio engine and that Steinberg will continue to tweak / improve this given the higher core count of new CPUs and mixed power / efficiency core topology of the newer Intel chips.


----------

