# First Orchestral Sample Library?



## Aido94

I’m a aspiring composer still in high school looking to purchase my first orchestral library. I’ve saved up about 500 dollars over the past year and a half. In that time period I’ve been using free plug ins that Ive found, and Spitefire audios Labs. I’ve been looking into it and I’ve seen a lot of mixed responses. The two I’m interested in are Spitfires Albion 1 and Hollywood Orchestra Gold or Diamond. I really like spitefire as a company, but I’m not 100% keen on their Albion 1 library. After comparing it to some others I’ve found, while it sounds good, its not the best. I also don’t want to be subscribed to a cloud. I’d like to be able to own the library and really get to know it. The biggest draw for me though, with Albion 1, is the inclusion of the Kontakt player. Thank you all for your responses and advise


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## Mornats

Hey, have a browse through here https://vi-control.net/community/threads/all-in-one-libraries-under-400-best-choices-2019.85656/ as I think (if I remember rightly) that there's some good comments about the type of libraries that may be suitable for you.


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## Jeremy Spencer

Aido94 said:


> The biggest draw for me though, with Albion 1, is the inclusion of the Kontakt player.



The Kontakt Player is free from Native Instruments anyways (don't confuse that with the full version, which is not included with Albion). The downside to Albion 1 is that is doesn't have many individual sections, mostly ensembles (and to my ears they down sound very realistic). Hollywood Orchestra Gold is an excellent choice, it's very comprehensive. Steep learning curve, but well worth the time invested. EW always has sales, and I suspect you may be able to pick up Hollywood Gold or Diamond for a really good price.

Scour YouTube for library walkthroughs, there are a lot of great sounding libraries in your price range!


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## robgb

Since you're just starting out, check out the Amadeus Symphonic Orchestra, which is a complete orchestral library with all the instruments you'd ever need. The sound quality is excellent and the price is pretty amazing: $149.


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## BassClef

This depends GREATLY on where you think you are going as a composer. If you want to compose for a traditional orchestra, you should get a full orchestra with all of the instruments, including soloists. Then study composition and orchestration using that library. If you just want to make music you like with no intent on ever having an orchestra perform it, libraries like the Albion's are great. They are also good for sketching first then converting to (or supplementing with) sections from other libraries. I have three of the Albion's. In addition to those mentioned above, don't overlook the older EastWest Symphonic Orchestra. You can now get the Platinum version (24 bit and all mics) for $320. This is still a great sounding library with a vast amount of articulations and taking up only 117GB hard drive space. Drawbacks... no true legato and EW Play engine more difficult to learn but doable. Other options... The Orchestra Complete (Sonuscore) and Audio Imperia's Nucleus. They have no where near the articulations in EW but are newer, have some true legato patches and have a more user friendly interface. Good luck!


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## Aido94

BassClef said:


> This depends GREATLY on where you think you are going as a composer.


I’m thinking about leaning towards film scoring, but I want to explore more that just orchestra. Does this change your response at all? I would like for Orchestras to preform it one day. Would that mean Albion 1 wouldn’t work?


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## HeliaVox

Albion 1 is a "tutti" orchestra. There are no solo players, it's all unison sections. So for the Oboes, for instance are @3. So when you play 2 notes together in harmony, you're getting the sound of 6 oboe players. It's a great tool for sketching and getting that "hollywood" sound because it can be big and bombastic. As a bonus you also get Darwin Percussion, Brunel Loops, and Stephenson's Steam Band, which will add texture and sythy sounds to the orchestral palette.


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## Aido94

robgb said:


> Since you're just starting out, check out the Amadeus Symphonic Orchestra, which is a complete orchestral library with all the instruments you'd ever need. The sound quality is excellent and the price is pretty amazing: $149.



Yes this is amazing!!! I will definitely be picking it up, thank you! Maybe later down the road I’ll explore some other options


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## MarcelM

composer cloud from east west is imho the best option to start. if you like it you may purchase hollywood orchestra gold (or just stay with CC) which beats the mentioned amadeus by miles.


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## Jeremy Spencer

MarcelM said:


> composer cloud from east west is imho the best option to start. if you like it you may purchase hollywood orchestra gold (or just stay with CC) which beats the mentioned amadeus by miles.



+1.


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## BassClef

Aido94 said:


> I’m thinking about leaning towards film scoring, but I want to explore more that just orchestra. Does this change your response at all? I would like for Orchestras to preform it one day. Would that mean Albion 1 wouldn’t work?



You can certainly create wonderful music with ensemble libraries like Albion, and then later rescore them for full orchestra if you want. Amadeus is a good beginning along with the other's that I mentioned for a little more money, but all under your $500 budget! Another consideration is the library's footprint on your hardware... CPU, RAM, Storage.


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## robgb

MarcelM said:


> composer cloud from east west is imho the best option to start. if you like it you may purchase hollywood orchestra gold (or just stay with CC) which beats the mentioned amadeus by miles.


Funny, I've always suspected that some of the samples for Amadeus were bought from EW. They used outside sources for their samples. Of course, this is only a guess. They've never said where they come from.

My problem with Composer Cloud is that you have to keep paying and never "own" anything. So if three years down the line you decide to pull up the midi files and remix your piece, you won't be able to do that unless you still have a subscription.

The problem I have with Gold is that it's only one mic position and it's a tree mic only. No close mics. Amadeus is bone dry (close mics only), which makes mixing MUCH MUCH easier.


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## Steve Wheeler

Audioimperia's Nucleus looks pretty good and is on sale right now. Not a ton of mic positions, but they've got a pretty great sound it sounds like.


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## MarcelM

robgb said:


> Funny, I've always suspected that some of the samples for Amadeus were bought from EW. They used outside sources for their samples. Of course, this is only a guess. They've never said where they come from.
> 
> My problem with Composer Cloud is that you have to keep paying and never "own" anything. So if three years down the line you decide to pull up the midi files and remix your piece, you won't be able to do that unless you still have a subscription.
> 
> The problem I have with Gold is that it's only one mic position and it's a tree mic only. No close mics. Amadeus is bone dry (close mics only), which makes mixing MUCH MUCH easier.



well, i dont have composer cloud anymore but own hollywood orchestra diamond (got silver aswell) and i can say that amadeus sounds nothing like it. 

gold btw is for sure enough. you can create outstanding stuff with it. jdiggity (god, did i spell that right? ) posted some awesomem mockups done with it. i doubt you can do something similar with amadeus. no offense, rob.


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## ThomasS

Maybe it's not what you are looking for, but another option if you are learning orchestration is to get Wallander Noteperformer and run it in Sibelius or Dorico instead of a DAW. The reason I recommend this as a start is that for a 129 bucks you get the most complete orchestra with fairly decent sounds, and tons of articulations, and you don't have to mess with expression maps or articulation keyswitchs when you are first learning to orchestrate. Later you can transfer your files to a DAW and use VST's to make your sounds better with other libraries, but at least you have everything at once in Noteperformer to get going, and whatever VST "starter" library you buy may still be missing some things, so you can keep those sounds from Noteperformer (as audio export) and mix them with your VST's in the DAW. 

You have nothing to lose trying this, because there is a free 30-day trial of Noteperformer and Sibelius and Dorico, so you should at least get one of the two notation hosts and Noteperformer and mess around with them for a month. 

I know it has been posted here often before, but here is Noteperformer playing Star Wars. As a test I downloaded the same XML file and replayed it in Noteperformer/Sibelius myself, and it sounded identical to this youtube video:


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## MartinH.

Maybe someone should attempt to condense the bajillion of similar threads into a couple of themed buyers guides. I just saw another thread that opened with a similar question from a user that never came back to even write a "thanks" or similar for the 100+ replies they received. Feels to me like that thread was a collosal waste of time and would have been better served by just pointing to a buyers guide.



MarcelM said:


> well, i dont have composer cloud anymore but own hollywood orchestra diamond (got silver aswell) and i can say that amadeus sounds nothing like it.



That's a shame, I would have liked a way to get HWO samples for Kontakt.

I don't understand how no one has found out where the samples came from yet. 

@robgb: maybe you could write a short piece with Amadeus, post stems under a new user account and ask if anyone can identify the libraries that were used on this "old project"?


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## germancomponist

robgb said:


> Since you're just starting out, check out the Amadeus Symphonic Orchestra, which is a complete orchestral library with all the instruments you'd ever need. The sound quality is excellent and the price is pretty amazing: $149.



I think this/your suggestion is a good one for a starter. I never heard about this lib, but my ears are telling me, that it is good for a start. I remember, I started with PS Advanced Orchestra and G. Garritans GPO. Both libs were great for me at this time ... .


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## Aido94

MarcelM said:


> composer cloud from east west is imho the best option to start. if you like it you may purchase hollywood orchestra gold (or just stay with CC) which beats the mentioned amadeus by miles.


So would you say purchasing the whole library would be a good idea? I'm not as comfortable with the subscription. Also, does Hollywood orchestra run on Kontakt, or does it have its own player?


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## Pier

Hey OP just get the Amadeus orchestra, at $149 the value is simply unbeatable. If you are just starting out and short on budget what you need now is to learn about workflow, arrangement, and orchestration. Even if you now had the ultimate orchestral library you wouldn't know what to do with it.

The Albion libraries are great and all but are not the full orchestra like others have said. It's certainly possible to make music only with Albions but IMO these are very specialized libraries and not a very wise beginner's buy.

If you are interested in film scoring you might also want to get something like Omnisphere to complement your orchestral sounds or maybe even U-he Zebra if you are interested in learning synthesis.

Or you could just focus on learning Amadeus for 1-2 years and keep saving. Then you will have a better idea of what you want and maybe invest on something in the $1000 range like BBC orchestra by Spitfire.

TL;DR: Start small, focus on learning and playing the long game.


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## MarcelM

Aido94 said:


> So would you say purchasing the whole library would be a good idea? I'm not as comfortable with the subscription. Also, does Hollywood orchestra run on Kontakt, or does it have its own player?



hollywood orchestra uses its own player (play). some people didnt like it in the beginning, but nowadays its very useable and does the job. its not a sampler like kontakt though. hollywood orchestra has some learning curve but so have alot of other librarys. if you are willing to put some time in it it will reward you with fantastic results.

you should really try out composer cloud for a month and just cancel it if you like it or not. this way you will see if you get along with HO.


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## germancomponist

MarcelM said:


>



This is a bad example ...... .


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## MarcelM

germancomponist said:


> This is a bad example ...... .


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## Aido94

Pier Bover said:


> Hey OP just get the Amadeus orchestra, at $149 the value is simply unbeatable.
> 
> TL;DR: Start small, focus on learning and playing the long game.


If you had the choice would you choose Amadeus or the Hollywood Orchestra? I convinced my parents to allow me to buy the Hollywood Orchestra over Amadeus. Should I go back and just get Amadeus? I'm incredibly lucky that my parents are supporting me in this way. Thank you!


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## Aido94

Thank you MarceIM for your feedback. You have been incredibly helpful in this process!


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## Pier

Aido94 said:


> If you had the choice would you choose Amadeus or the Hollywood Orchestra? I convinced my parents to allow me to buy the Hollywood Orchestra over Amadeus. Should I go back and just get Amadeus? I'm incredibly lucky that my parents are supporting me in this way. Thank you!



The HO Diamond+solo is on sale now and it will be close to $600.






Hollywood Orchestra Opus Edition VST Plugin | EastWest


Hollywood Orchestra Opus Edition VST plugin is an award winning virtual orchestra. Includes Orchestrator for creating blockbuster soundtracks in seconds.




www.soundsonline.com





I haven't used it but I'm sure it's nice.

I'll stick to my initial advice. Get an affordable introductory library like Amadeus which will give you more than enough to learn your skills.

If you are serious about this composing thing you should invest in some piano and music theory classes and get a MIDI keyboard if you already do not have one. That money will be much better spent than on better orchestral libraries.


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## Geomir

I would also suggest Hollywood Orchestra (Gold Edition), which has only 1 mic, it's relatively dry, and right now costs less than $250. Also, EW Symphonic Orchestra (Gold Edition) would be a nice first library for less than $200, if you like a sound that has a natural reverb (it was recorded in a big concert hall)! I am not sure that as a beginner you would have great benefits from many different mic positions. It could be a little overwhelming (not only for you, but for your PC as well), but that's up to you.

The problem with Amadeus is that there is no support at all, it seems an abandoned product, the library (or even their web page!) has never been updated, and - beware - it expires permanently!

Yes this happened to me yesterday, as I wanted to give it a second try! So I went to my account to download it, only to get the response "your download links have expired", and immediately the page redirected me to a new page prompting me to enter their e-shop to buy a new product!

I suppose I could send them an email for support (i.e. creating new download links for me, if possible), but they still have not replied to my previous emails which I sent them 6 months ago! So I would consider it a great risk spending $150 to buying Amadeus!

If you would really like a Kontakt Player library, including full sections, the most essential solo instruments, plus many extras (like choirs and atmospheric pads), 2 different microphone settings, that sounds very nice, has a modern interface and does not require a high end computer (it weights about 20GB), I would definitely suggest Nucleus Core.

Last but not least, well done to your parents that support your music journey!


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## Jeremy Gillam

Try to choose a sample library that your computer can handle!


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## germancomponist

MarcelM said:


>



Oops, I had forgotten to type a smiley. EW libraries are very good, and for this low prices these days ....


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## ism

With $500 with a student discount, you could go straight for a best in class string library like Spitfire chamber strings or CSS. Then you could either augment the winds and brass with something basic (Amadeus, GPO, Kontakt factory), but focus on writing for strings.

I started out with a terrible library (GPO) which was just painful. Not that I could have learned lots with it, but it was just painful, and I quickly realized that I just wasn't poor enough to listen to such terrible sounds. 

In fairness Amedeus is much imporoved from those days. 


But still, for $500, on black friday and/or with a student discount, you can start buying really, really good libraries. Libraries that you'll be using years from now. 


Or the spitfire symphonic woodwinds (not the studio), which are also best and class and possibly the best purchase I've even made. From which you could learn to write woodwind quintets until you can afford a string library.


I also think that its better to learn writing for ensembles that to just start writing entire symphonies. And its not like learning on a cheap guitar. The better the library you're working with, the more expressiveness and nuance you can learn to compose with.


Of course if you want to start writing big thonking trailer music, then just go with Albion 1 or something.


With a $500 budget, if you're serious about composing, you don't really need to mess around intro level libraries.


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## ptram

Since nobody has cited VSL, I guess it's my turn. In that price range, the Synchronized Special Edition Vol.1/+ can do both classical and movie's. It sounds great and is very versatile. As noted several times here, it has however a hardware protection key that can be a real pain.

Paolo


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## BassClef

So many options... want another? I've listened to Nucleas demos and reviews. It sounds very good, has soloists and looks easy to use, although limited in many aspects. Since you like Jeager (I have it) but it does not have any woodwinds, consider the current East West sale. You could pick up Hollywood Woodwinds Gold for only $106 to go with Jeager.


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## Aido94

Pier Bover said:


> If you are serious about this composing thing you should invest in some piano and music theory classes and get a MIDI keyboard if you already do not have one. That money will be much better spent than on better orchestral libraries.


I’ve been playing piano and learning theory for years now haha. I have a nice key board I got almost a year ago, this is just my next step. Thanks for the wise words


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## RogiervG

MarcelM said:


>




You NEED the diamond version of the hollywood series for this, so the cloud offering is no option if you want this exact sound abilities. (because of mic positions and even divisi for strings.) and a ton of post processing fx. (not included in the eastwest offerings)
The gold is good, but needs more work, to get the richness soundwise, the diamond offers.(no extra mics, no divisi to name some things you lack, and influence soundscape options)


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## Steve Wheeler

Geomir said:


> I would also suggest Hollywood Orchestra (Gold Edition), which has only 1 mic, it's relatively dry, and right now costs less than $250. Also, EW Symphonic Orchestra (Gold Edition) would be a nice first library for less than $200, if you like a sound that has a natural reverb (it was recorded in a big concert hall)! I am not sure that as a beginner you would have great benefits from many different mic positions. It could be a little overwhelming (not only for you, but for your PC as well), but that's up to you.
> 
> The problem with Amadeus is that there is no support at all, it seems an abandoned product, the library (or even their web page!) has never been updated, and - beware - it expires permanently!
> 
> Yes this happened to me yesterday, as I wanted to give it a second try! So I went to my account to download it, only to get the response "your download links have expired", and immediately the page redirected me to a new page prompting me to enter their e-shop to buy a new product!
> 
> I suppose I could send them an email for support (i.e. creating new download links for me, if possible), but they still have not replied to my previous emails which I sent them 6 months ago! So I would consider it a great risk spending $150 to buying Amadeus!
> 
> If you would really like a Kontakt Player library, including full sections, the most essential solo instruments, plus many extras (like choirs and atmospheric pads), 2 different microphone settings, that sounds very nice, has a modern interface and does not require a high end computer (it weights about 20GB), I would definitely suggest Nucleus Core.
> 
> Last but not least, well done to your parents that support your music journey!



For a beginner, Gold is $266 right now. That is hard to beat price-wise. I still occasionally reach for HW Brass and often reach for HW Perc (it's got some nice snares). The winds aren't great though, and I've run into some tuning issues with some of the string patches in the past. 

Nucleus which I recommended earlier (but don't have personally), and Geomir mentions here, is $379 on sale right now. I don't have it personally, but it looks quite good and comes with choirs and soloists too. Mic positions are limited, but that's actually probably good starting out. As a bonus, it's got pre-orchestrated ensembles as well, which can be a great learning tool if you do some critical listening to hear what's going on there. 

Daniel James does a pretty good run through of Nucleus on Youtube. I'd check it and other videos of both before you pull the trigger on anything. 

If I didn't have *anything *at all, I'd probably reach for Nucleus. But if I needed to save the $113 difference between the two, HO Gold isn't bad.


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## RogiervG

500 USD can buy you quite nice sounds (bundles, or libs). It depends on your longer term goals, if this will keep you happy. Meaning, with most things, and the world of sampling this is true mostly too.. the more you pay, the better you receive. Many libraries/bundles in the lower pricerange, are good, but not stellar. And it is noticable too, when you need high realism in your works. So if it's just for hobby, or noodling around, nothing fancy.. (nothing wrong with this!).. 500 brings you alot!
But if you want to go indepth, as a serious hobby, you MIGHT want to save up more, and buy higher end libraries that offer more detail in sonic abilities (e.g. better legato's, more articulations, better recordings of samples etc).

Since 500 is no pocketchange money to invest... you need to consider the longer run term usability/fun/vision too. Sometimes a higher investment, leads to longer usability. Just my two cents on the financial side.

Again, not saying you should save more money.. not at all... but i think it's worth to overthink it nevertheless (even if you opt not going to save extra money.. the choice you make is well thought out)


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## dzilizzi

Aido94 said:


> If you had the choice would you choose Amadeus or the Hollywood Orchestra? I convinced my parents to allow me to buy the Hollywood Orchestra over Amadeus. Should I go back and just get Amadeus? I'm incredibly lucky that my parents are supporting me in this way. Thank you!


Go to JRRShop.com and use the discount code Group. You can get Gold for less than $224. It will work well for a long time.


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## rlundv

ThomasS said:


> Maybe it's not what you are looking for, but another option if you are learning orchestration is to get Wallander Noteperformer and run it in Sibelius or Dorico instead of a DAW. The reason I recommend this as a start is that for a 129 bucks you get the most complete orchestra with fairly decent sounds, and tons of articulations, and you don't have to mess with expression maps or articulation keyswitchs when you are first learning to orchestrate. Later you can transfer your files to a DAW and use VST's to make your sounds better with other libraries, but at least you have everything at once in Noteperformer to get going, and whatever VST "starter" library you buy may still be missing some things, so you can keep those sounds from Noteperformer (as audio export) and mix them with your VST's in the DAW.
> 
> You have nothing to lose trying this, because there is a free 30-day trial of Noteperformer and Sibelius and Dorico, so you should at least get one of the two notation hosts and Noteperformer and mess around with them for a month.
> 
> I know it has been posted here often before, but here is Noteperformer playing Star Wars. As a test I downloaded the same XML file and replayed it in Noteperformer/Sibelius myself, and it sounded identical to this youtube video:



Could not agree more.


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## scoringdreams

How about Orchestral Tool's Berlin Orchestra Inspire 1 & 2?

Then the OP can slowly build his orchestral sections (Berlin Series) based on his needs...


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## dzilizzi

scoringdreams said:


> How about Orchestral Tool's Berlin Orchestra Inspire 1 & 2?
> 
> Then the OP can slowly build his orchestral sections (Berlin Series) based on his needs...


If OT comes out with their player and the ability to buy what you need only, this would really work.


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## Jeremy Spencer

RogiervG said:


> You NEED the diamond version of the hollywood series for this, so the cloud offering is no option if you want this exact sound abilities. (because of mic positions and even divisi for strings.) and a ton of post processing fx. (not included in the eastwest offerings)
> The gold is good, but needs more work, to get the richness soundwise, the diamond offers.(no extra mics, no divisi to name some things you lack, and influence soundscape options)



Not necessarily, I've been using Gold for years and never saw the need for the extra mic's. And you actually don't need much post processing with the Hollywood Series (if any). You can also get the "Gold X" CC subscription, which includes close mic's.


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## rrichard63

MartinH. said:


> Maybe someone should attempt to condense the bajillion of similar threads into a couple of themed buyers guides.


I've thought about this, too. It would indeed be helpful, but very labor intensive to create -- and to maintain over time. The sampled instrument world isn't exactly standing still.


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## MartinH.

rrichard63 said:


> I've thought about this, too. It would indeed be helpful, but very labor intensive to create -- and to maintain over time. The sampled instrument world isn't exactly standing still.



That's true, but I'm inclined to point at the 7000+ posts BBCSO thread and say if we have time for that nonsense, we have time to argue about a proper stickied buyer's guide once in a while. Not to mention in the long rung it would save soooo much time in answering the same questions over and over. 

Half these threads feel like "group therapy" where the OP is mainly looking for reassurement that they don't make the "wrong choice" and everyone else recommends mostly the stuff they bought themselves to reassure themselves they made "a good choice". Much fewer people even have the broad experience of having worked with most existing libraries to make any truly meaningful comparisons and while others can contribute "aggregate 2nd hand knowledge even without owning the products", like e.g. "cinematic studio series are very consistent bread & butter libraries with occasional hanging-note bugs on certain DAW/Gear combinations", that too could be learned from reading existing threads. And getting 10 conflicting opinions tailored to one specific question isn't necessarily more helpful than reading 10 conflicting opinions on someone else's specific question or a generic guide. It's not like any of the "please recommend to me..." threads ever have a super clear answer that everyone agrees on.


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## Jeremy Spencer

MartinH. said:


> That's true, but I'm inclined to point at the 7000+ posts BBCSO thread and say if we have time for that nonsense, we have time to argue about a proper stickied buyer's guide once in a while. Not to mention in the long rung it would save soooo much time in answering the same questions over and over.
> 
> Half these threads feel like "group therapy" where the OP is mainly looking for reassurement that they don't make the "wrong choice" and everyone else recommends mostly the stuff they bought themselves to reassure themselves they made "a good choice". Much fewer people even have the broad experience of having worked with most existing libraries to make any truly meaningful comparisons and while others can contribute "aggregate 2nd hand knowledge even without owning the products", like e.g. "cinematic studio series are very consistent bread & butter libraries with occasional hanging-note bugs on certain DAW/Gear combinations", that too could be learned from reading existing threads. And getting 10 conflicting opinions tailored to one specific question isn't necessarily more helpful than reading 10 conflicting opinions on someone else's specific question or a generic guide. It's not like any of the "please recommend to me..." threads ever have a super clear answer that everyone agrees on.



It's never cut and dried. Sample libraries are VERY subjective, so there's no real definitive, solid advice that's 100% reliable. It's like asking "what is the best car for someone who just got their driver's license?"....you would obviously have a plethora a different answers. But, from all the information given, someone could form an educated decision (at least more educated than not) on which general direction to take. There are just way too many factors. I always recommend simply scouring YouTube and watching as many walkthrough's as possible, and also determining if one's computer can handle a certain library.


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## MartinH.

Wolfie2112 said:


> It's never cut and dried. Sample libraries are VERY subjective, so there's no real definitive, solid advice that's 100% reliable. It's like asking "what is the best car for someone who just got their driver's license?"....you would obviously have a plethora a different answers. But, from all the information given, someone could form an educated decision (at least more educated than not) on which general direction to take. There are just way too many factors. I always recommend simply scouring YouTube and watching as many walkthrough's as possible, and also determining if one's computer can handle a certain library.



You're already mentioning some rational criteria (computer resource demands etc.) that can be put into such a guide, youtube videos can be linked in such a guide. Sure it's largely subjective in the end, but I don't see how endless copies of 100+ page threads with conflicting informations are more helpful than a more condensed list that sums up major pros and cons and lists a couple good walkthroughs/example tracks for each library. A guide doesn't need to end with "therefore, buy this one library" at all, I think it's perfectly fine to take a broad strokes approach and basically "teach the criteria by which to make a personal subjective decision".


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## LamaRose

As a student, your $500 will go pretty far... not to mention great sales on the horizon. With that said, whatever you choose, go with something with a solid rep that has/can stand the test of time quality-wise. 

Also, something that inspires pretty much trumps everything else, imho. If it was me, and I was starting out, I'd be looking hard at OT's Inspire/Ark/Time collections.


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## rrichard63

MartinH. said:


> if we have time for that nonsense, we have time to argue about a proper stickied buyer's guide once in a while. Not to mention in the long rung it would save soooo much time in answering the same questions over and over.


I agree. I just think this would take time and effort to do properly.


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## AndyP

Qualitatively and quantitatively the VSL Synchronized SE packages are hard to beat!
I don't know if VSL makes a BF or XMAS sale, but with package 1 and 2, or 1 and 1+ you get everything you need. First class woodwinds, good strings, solo instruments of all kinds, a super steinway piano, and it's resource-saving. You can also load articulations individually, or build your own patches as combos or with reduced articulations.
The plus packages offer some important articulations, like thrills, but you can do without them.

If I had to decide now (without already having many librarys) I would choose VSL. Out of the box is not necessarily the epic sound, but with a bit of tweaking you can do that too.

What I would also like to mention is that there are good upgrade options at reduced prices if you want to upgrade to the "bigger" packages.

Edit: And ... polyphonic legato! Hard to beat for the price!


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## Geomir

AndyP said:


> Qualitatively and quantitatively the VSL Synchronized SE packages are hard to beat!
> I don't know if VSL makes a BF or XMAS sale, but with package 1 and 2, or 1 and 1+ you get everything you need. First class woodwinds, good strings, solo instruments of all kinds, a super steinway piano, and it's resource-saving. You can also load articulations individually, or build your own patches as combos or with reduced articulations.
> The plus packages offer some important articulations, like thrills, but you can do without them.
> 
> If I had to decide now (without already having many librarys) I would choose VSL. Out of the box is not necessarily the epic sound, but with a bit of tweaking you can do that too.
> 
> What I would also like to mention is that there are good upgrade options at reduced prices if you want to upgrade to the "bigger" packages.
> 
> Edit: And ... polyphonic legato! Hard to beat for the price!


Is there any chance that this specific reply was actually meant for the following thread? 




__





What Should I get? Beginning Orchestral Composition


Hi guys, Nice to meet you all. I'm getting into composition and I was wondering what you guys suggest I get. My situation: I'm a musician who wants to get into composition and compose for video games/film/media but mainly video games. I'd like to be able to write dynamic and emotional...




vi-control.net





LOL so many similar threads!


----------



## AndyP

Maybe


----------



## dzilizzi

I like the idea of a thread with each libraries minimum and realistic requirements for both Windows and Macs. 

Then maybe an ease of use as comparable to xxx? Wet/Dry, properly in place, needs lots of manipulation to sound real, etc...? And let's not forget ensemble versus separate articulations, whether it has POWER legato or any legato at all, and then maybe some out of the box demos? Though a link works too. 

Most of this stuff is somewhere on the board for all these libraries.


----------



## AndyP

this could be a damn long list. but the idea is good. i've been playing around with the vsl library for a while now and i'm always thrilled how well it can be played. the sound is a bit sober, but that makes it incredibly flexible / compatible.


----------



## mscp

Why don’t companies release a VI freebie (with one articulation) so we can all hear how they sound instead of relying on guesswork or reviews? 8dio does for some of their products. Why can’t the rest? I have purchased some really bad libraries in the past because of the lack of...but won’t be making the same mistake again.


----------



## MartinH.

Phil81 said:


> *Why don’t companies release a VI freebie (with one articulation) so we can all hear how they sound instead of relying on guesswork or reviews?* 8dio does for some of their products. Why can’t the rest? I have purchased some really bad libraries in the past because of the lack of...but won’t be making the same mistake again.



Because with such a "demo" you wouldn't have purchased those bad libraries.


----------



## mscp

MartinH. said:


> Because with such a "demo" you wouldn't have purchased those bad libraries.


That’s not very smart of them for several reasons - most probably obvious to the general consumer.


----------



## Pier

I agree a demo would be great, but there are plenty of Youtube reviews and opinions on forums like this one.


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## mscp

If those helped, there wouldn’t be several similar threads like this every month I’m sure.


----------



## MartinH.

Phil81 said:


> If those helped, there wouldn’t be several similar threads like this every month I’m sure.




I'm 100% sure that making a thread and asking for help will always beat every option that requires more effort when it comes to this topic. A guide wouldn't make the threads fewer, but they could be answered more efficiently: "Here's the guide [link], if you don't have very specific questions that go beyond the scope of that, there's not much we can do to help you make your decision. Ultimately it's up to you and personal preferences. Chances are long term you'll buy much more than one library of each kind anayway."


----------



## JohnG

I always recommend to buy the best-sounding library and equipment you can possibly afford.

Purchasing a mediocre-sounding "starter" library is flushing money -- and, even worse, time -- down the drain. Besides, it raises the chance that a beginner will just quit, thinking his music is weak, when it's the _sound_ of it that disappoints, not the actual music as such.

Save up for something that you, personally, think sounds superb.


----------



## mscp

MartinH. said:


> I'm 100% sure that making a thread and asking for help will always beat every option that requires more effort when it comes to this topic. A guide wouldn't make the threads fewer, but they could be answered more efficiently: "Here's the guide [link], if you don't have very specific questions that go beyond the scope of that, there's not much we can do to help you make your decision. Ultimately it's up to you and personal preferences. Chances are long term you'll buy much more than one library of each kind anayway."


That’s why trialling it by yourself is the most effective way of knowing what you’re looking for. Hands-on experience beats all.


----------



## scoringdreams

An expensive experience...

In times like this, we need a flow chart


----------



## Drundfunk

There is no right answer to this, only trial and error. But if I were in your shoes it would be either Audio Imperia Nucleus or East West Diamond Orchestra. Nucleus is easier to learn I guess (watch Daniel James video on Youtube about it. Should give you a good idea about the library).


----------



## AndyP

JohnG said:


> I always recommend to buy the best-sounding library and equipment you can possibly afford.


That's a great answer, absolutely right and I wouldn't have anything against it.

The only problem is that there is such a wide range of products on offer that do something similar in principle, but vary greatly in sound and possibilities.
Epic, classic? There are less bad libraries, rather the wrong ones for the intended purpose.

Sometimes it's details like missing articulations or playability that make you despair of a library.
So how can you find the best sounding library if you are not stuck in the detail of a library? This won't work on the basis of the demos on the manufacturer pages! But they at least give you an idea of the sound.

I find it difficult to make concrete recommendations when it comes to tasteful things like best-sounding libraries.
But I can say something about the playability, the contents. Even in terms of operation und usability musicians have different views and prefs.

The question of the OP is legitimate, but we will never answer it "correctly".

So the reference to listen to this or any other library is what we can do. And those who still reveal their personal experiences will help anyway, even if it's sometimes hard to understand if you don't know exactly what the commentator wants to say.


----------



## jbuhler

MartinH. said:


> That's true, but I'm inclined to point at the 7000+ posts BBCSO thread and say if we have time for that nonsense, we have time to argue about a proper stickied buyer's guide once in a while. Not to mention in the long rung it would save soooo much time in answering the same questions over and over.
> 
> Half these threads feel like "group therapy" where the OP is mainly looking for reassurement that they don't make the "wrong choice" and everyone else recommends mostly the stuff they bought themselves to reassure themselves they made "a good choice". Much fewer people even have the broad experience of having worked with most existing libraries to make any truly meaningful comparisons and while others can contribute "aggregate 2nd hand knowledge even without owning the products", like e.g. "cinematic studio series are very consistent bread & butter libraries with occasional hanging-note bugs on certain DAW/Gear combinations", that too could be learned from reading existing threads. And getting 10 conflicting opinions tailored to one specific question isn't necessarily more helpful than reading 10 conflicting opinions on someone else's specific question or a generic guide. It's not like any of the "please recommend to me..." threads ever have a super clear answer that everyone agrees on.


True, this. But still. If we weren't all busy nursing our anxieties, what would sustain the forum conversation?


----------



## jbuhler

JohnG said:


> I always recommend to buy the best-sounding library and equipment you can possibly afford.
> 
> Purchasing a mediocre-sounding "starter" library is flushing money down the drain. Besides, it raises the chance that a beginner will just quit, thinking his music is weak, when it's the sound of it.
> 
> Save up for something that you, personally, think sounds superb.


Most of the libraries available and mentioned are excellent but they are almost all of them optimized for somewhat different things. (That's one reason, I find myself wanting to some degree all of them, even though that would make composing harder rather then easier...) It can be hard to tell from demos and even walkthroughs if they are optimized for your needs, but generally if you don't like the sound or are not hearing what you want in the demos and walkthroughs that's a good indication that the library may not be a good fit for you. One good rule of thumb is to never presume a library will do something—even something you think is obvious—if you haven't heard it do that thing in a demo or walkthrough, whatever the advertising copy and technical specs may say... But also just because a library is not a good fit for you doesn't mean that it won't be exactly what someone else needs, and vice versa, just because a library works for you doesn't mean that someone else won't find it maddening. That's one reason I find the ranking mentality with respect to libraries quite wrong headed. 

I agree to a point about mediocre-sounding "starter" libraries. Early on, before I had purchased any sample libraries, I found it quite helpful working with the instruments that came packaged with Logic, for instance. First in figuring out how to make them sound musical (how to compose to the samples you have). Second, in figuring out what I wanted purchased libraries to do. Then I moved to EWQLSO—I still like the sound of this library even if it's a pain and the cost of it then was not small—but I had so many licensing errors (this was after it was moved to Play) that I eventually gave it up to move to Kontakt libraries. But I also learned from that experience that the configuration of the instruments makes a huge difference in usability and the way Play instruments are designed was always going to be a huge limitation to me making the most of them. (Play is much better now and I still occasionally draw on EWQLSO, despite its limitations, for a few things.) So I ended up working to build a set of libraries around Kontakt, now supplemented with a few non-Kontakt libraries. 

That said, I do agree with the general advice "to buy the best-sounding library and equipment you can possibly afford." Pretty much anything I've purchased because it was inexpensive rather than because I was drawn to how it sounded has been a waste of money that would have been better spent on something whose sound I was drawn toward.


----------



## JohnG

jbuhler said:


> Pretty much anything I've purchased because it was inexpensive rather than because I was drawn to how it sounded has been a waste of money



good advice -- nice post. Plus you still have an awesome avatar pic.


----------



## h.s.j.e

I don't have a ton of experience with a wide range of libraries—I'm also a cash-strapped hobbyist who's been stuck in the beginner stage for a lot longer than I care to think about—and in general, my experience has backed up the idea that you should save up longer for something you'll like better.

There's a qualification I'd add, though: your ear, understanding and workflow are also developing. For me, that means that I'm susceptible to thinking things sound better to me just because they sound better to someone else, or have great marketing. Blind demo tests, and taking time to let your impressions settle can be really helpful.


----------



## JohnG

h.s.j.e said:


> Blind demo tests, and taking time to let your impressions settle can be really helpful.



Excellent advice. Take your time, and sift the demos yourself, rather than relying on someone else to curate your choice for you. 

I think it's not surprising to see so many threads on this topic. 

Why?

The biggest waste of the "wrong" library is your time. It can take months to sift some of the larger libraries to discover whether one has chosen wisely or not.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

h.s.j.e said:


> For me, that means that I'm susceptible to thinking things sound better to me, just because they sound better to someone else, or have great marketing



Rule #1, never fall for the hype, or an impulse purchase based purely on opinions (I've been there, done that, got the t-shirt). Narrow in on your shortlist, and research the hell out of them. Some of my favourite libraries are those that are barely discussed on the forum, and are actually libraries that I discovered by accident; usually through a flash sale in the "deals" forum. I went against my principles by pre-purchasing BBSCO, but luckily it was a good gamble.


----------



## handz

JohnG said:


> Excellent advice. Take your time, and sift the demos yourself, rather than relying on someone else to curate your choice for you.
> 
> I think it's not surprising to see so many threads on this topic.
> 
> Why?
> 
> The biggest waste of the "wrong" library is your time. It can take months to sift some of the larger libraries to discover whether one has chosen wisely or not.



Demos usually always sounds way better than you will be able to make them sound yourself (considering you are just starting), its an advertisement made to sell the product, I would listen to walkthroughs on Youtube from independent musicians.


----------



## JohnG

handz said:


> Demos usually always sounds way better than you will be able to make them sound yourself (considering you are just starting), its an advertisement made to sell the product, I would listen to walkthroughs on Youtube from independent musicians.



Everyone knows that the demos are the best it can be, which is _exactly_ what a beginner needs to know. He or she needs to know what can be achieved, provided one invests sufficient hard work and exploration of the library. 

Why?

Because, even if you're 14 years old, you still have limited time. Nobody can afford to squander time on a library that, ultimately, will disappoint.

The most important question about a library is not, "how does it sound in five minutes," but "how _can_ it sound if I work at it."

*Speed Reading*

By contrast, the "independent musicians" on Youtube, in some cases, offer the equivalent of standing in a music store and jamming through the presets on a synth at warp speed. Yes, it is information, but it doesn't begin to address what you need to know to make a good decision about something as elaborate and time-consuming as an orchestral library.


----------



## h.s.j.e

Wolfie2112 said:


> Rule #1, never fall for the hype, or an impulse purchase based purely on opinions (I've been there, done that, got the t-shirt). *Narrow in on your shortlist, and research the hell out of them.* Some of my favourite libraries are those that are barely discussed on the forum, and are actually libraries that I discovered by accident; usually through a flash sale in the "deals" forum. I went against my principles by pre-purchasing BBSCO, but luckily it was a good gamble.


This is what I mean, mainly; research sufficiently to kill your unreflective intuitions.

I find demos especially helpful because I can listen to demos while I'm working. From that perspective, I find that demos are especially helpful for differentiating between items on a shortlist. Presumably, all of the demos are showing off the best of a product, so they're helpful for comparisons. I also normally watch plenty of YT demos, most especially if there's one available from SampleLibraryReview, but demos are indispensable to me.


----------



## handz

JohnG said:


> Everyone knows that the demos are the best it can be, which is _exactly_ what a beginner needs to know. He or she needs to know what can be achieved, provided one invests sufficient hard work and exploration of the library.
> 
> Why?
> 
> Because, even if you're 14 years old, you still have limited time. Nobody can afford to squander time on a library that, ultimately, will disappoint.
> 
> The most important question about a library is not, "how does it sound in five minutes," but "how _can_ it sound if I work at it."
> 
> *Speed Reading*
> 
> By contrast, the "independent musicians" on Youtube, in some cases, offer the equivalent of standing in a music store and jamming through the presets on a synth at warp speed. Yes, it is information, but it doesn't begin to address what you need to know to make a good decision about something as elaborate and time-consuming as an orchestral library.


I concur, having a library that sounds not so good out of the box when you are just starting is a huge turn-off. Of course, that you should learn all the EQ and mixing, but it is frustrating to have to do it from day one. Buying based on demos leads to a false expectations, especially when the demoes are not using just the library sounds.


----------



## JohnG

handz said:


> Buying based on demos leads to a false expectations, especially when the demoes are not using just the library sounds.



"High" expectations is not the same as "false" expectations. Demos don't lead to _false_ expectations. Instead, they reveal the best that can be achieved with that library. 

As far as "not using just the library sounds," sometimes you have to read carefully. If you are looking at a library from reputable providers, they are typically clear in distinguishing "naked" (library-only) demos from "dressed" demos that might incorporate sounds from other libraries.

I'm not saying you shouldn't also look on Youtube. Knock yourself out; it's up to the buyer to work out how much reliance to put on those.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

handz said:


> Demos usually always sounds way better than you will be able to make them sound yourself (considering you are just starting), its an advertisement made to sell the product,



Of course they sound good, the developer wants to show you how they sound when used as intended. They are selling a product. If you're a crappy orchestrator, or bad at programming, that's usually why they don't sound good "out of the box". Reading the manual and experimenting goes a long way, and let's face it, most people don't invest the necessary time into these simple tasks. I've never seen heard any deception in developer demos I've heard, not sure why you're claiming this.


----------



## handz

Wolfie2112 said:


> Of course they sound good, the developer wants to show you how they sound when used as intended. They are selling a product. If you're a crappy orchestrator, or bad at programming, that's usually why they don't sound good "out of the box". Reading the manual and experimenting goes a long way, and let's face it, most people don't invest the necessary time into these simple tasks. I've never seen heard any deception in developer demos I've heard, not sure why you're claiming this.


Oh c'mon... Do many demos use sounds that are not from the library? Yes. Are the demos using third party effects and plugins? Yes. Of course not all, but many. They may even use sounds from private sample libraries you will never get hands on (demos for HS by TJB for example, on top, that TJB is a god and can probably make even GPO sounds awesome) It is nice to listen to the demos, but I would not judge the library based on what the best composers in the world can do with them. 

And OF COURSE that some libraries sound great out of the box and are extremely playable and some are a pain to use and need tons of tweaking, this is how it is.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

handz said:


> Oh c'mon... Do many demos use sounds that are not from the library? Yes



Some do, but they usually disclaim this. Just for my own sake, can you show me any official developer demos that are deceiving? Using a top-notch composer is not deceiving btw.


----------



## handz

Wolfie2112 said:


> Some do, but they usually disclaim this. Just for my own sake, can you show me any official developer demos that are deceiving? Using a top-notch composer is not deceiving btw.




I think it is obvious from my previous post - any demo that not uses just the library sounds without it being clearly stated- which are they? Well, all which are not marked *library only* and there is still plenty of them. For example, any demo for HO is not stated as using HO only... and of course they are not as by the time when demos were made not all sections of HO were available so they are not using HO only. If I remember correctly, TJB stated here on the forum that for Allegro Agitato demo he used private libraries. I do not blame developers from lying just saying that what you hear is not always what you get plus if you are not someone who is an absolute pro the results will vary a lot. And this is different from library to library, some are way easier for achieving good results than other. 

So recommending someone to buy a library based on the demos - I find this highly unresponsible. If these are not purely technical clean demos or library only demos. 


l


----------



## AndyP

handz said:


> Demos usually always sounds way better than you will be able to make them sound yourself (considering you are just starting), its an advertisement made to sell the product, I would listen to walkthroughs on Youtube from independent musicians.


For me, these were usually the decisive criteria!


----------



## AndyP

handz said:


> I think it is obvious from my previous post - any demo that not uses just the library sounds without it being clearly stated- which are they?


A good example is Elysion. The demos have all been created with additional libraries. And only on demand the additional librarys were marked with the other instruments! I think it's better if the demos are much more limited to the library itself than to show how they sound in context. After all, you want to get the pure sound experience. Dressed is ok, but there should be a smaller amount on the demos!


----------



## JohnG

handz said:


> any demo for HO is not stated as using HO only



I don't think the reputable companies put out demos with samples from other libraries or other families of samples without clearly stating it.

You are calling people fraudsters without, as far as I know, any evidence. That is a very serious allegation.

I wrote a demo for Hollywood Brass, called "Juicy Insect" quite some time ago. Even though only the brass was being demo'd, I restricted my palette to East West -- Hollywood Brass, Hollywood Strings, and EW other libraries. The percussion and winds in the Hollywood series weren't out when I wrote it.

I recorded the same piece in London some time later, but the original demo is exactly what it says it is. I think most people writing demos are pretty conscientious. [edit: maybe I'm nuts!]


----------



## handz

JohnG said:


> You are calling people fraudsters without, as far as I know, any evidence. That is a very serious allegation.
> 
> I wrote a demo for Hollywood Brass, called "Juicy Insect" quite some time ago. Even though only the brass was being demo'd, I restricted my palette to East West -- Hollywood Brass, Hollywood Strings, and EW other libraries. The percussion and winds in the Hollywood series weren't out when I wrote it.




Are you being serious? I am not calling anyone fraudster, I am just surprised that I need to explain to you how advertisement works - if you believe every ad than... good for you I guess. 

At the time of the release of HS strings, there were not HO woodwinds, brass or percussions. And these same demos for HS are now on the page for HO - so clearly they are NOT using HO sounds only. What more do I have to prove? I am not bashing EastWest here, I own HO and I love it. I knew that the demos were not using HO sounds only, and there were lots of technical demos for HS from Nick back then. But it is not obvious from the website demo page. This is a fact. You do not need to fight for them here.


----------



## JohnG

handz said:


> Are you being serious?



Yes, I am being serious. I don't agree with the insinuation that demos, in general, represent some kind of trick. By contrast, you are suggesting that, in general, demos are some kind of fraudulent effort to hoodwink people. The way your posts read might lead a buyer to think it's all fake, which I don't agree with.

I also think you're making quite a serious accusation and, unless you have proof that these demos are truly misleading, you might tone it down, or at least present it as your own theory, rather than an accepted fact.


----------



## handz

JohnG said:


> Yes, I am being serious. I don't agree with the insinuation that demos, in general, represent some kind of trick. By contrast, you are suggesting that, in general, demos are some kind of fraudulent effort to hoodwink people. The way your posts read might lead a buyer to think it's all fake, which I don't agree with.
> 
> I also think you're making quite a serious accusation and, unless you have proof that these demos are truly misleading, you might tone it down, or at least present it as your own theory, rather than an accepted fact.



ooof.... 

I gave you the proof 2x already, for example, the Allegro Agitato demo is from 2010 - way before HB was even available, and it is listed under the Hollywood Orchestra demos - so CLEARLY it is not HO demo, it is just a demo using HS. Rest are EWQL and CUSTOM sample libraries (there is a thread about it right here on the forum ) - and it is not just this demo, others are from the time when HB was released, so again woodwinds and percussions are not HO. So, if these are, without a disclaimer being used as demos for HO, it is misleading as someone who is not sample forum veteran will probably believe that these demos represent what this complete orchestra sounds like.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

handz said:


> Rest are EWQL and CUSTOM sample libraries



So you you're saying that the HO demos are not HO?


----------



## handz

Wolfie2112 said:


> So you you're saying that the HO demos are not HO?




Do you read my posts? How can a demo made in 2010 could be a HO only demo? The only way would be that they redid it with HO recently, which I highly doubt...


----------



## MartinH.

JohnG said:


> Yes, I am being serious. I don't agree with the insinuation that demos, in general, represent some kind of trick. By contrast, you are suggesting that, in general, demos are some kind of fraudulent effort to hoodwink people. The way your posts read might lead a buyer to think it's all fake, which I don't agree with.
> 
> I also think you're making quite a serious accusation and, unless you have proof that these demos are truly misleading, you might tone it down, or at least present it as your own theory, rather than an accepted fact.



Fraudulent and misleading are very different things imho. I think you two aren't even talking about the same thing, I don't see accusations being made. Misleading is par for the course for any advertisement. There are very few exceptions in the sample world. E.g. I was surprised how many notifications about flaws in the library and lack of support I had not only received, but had to actively acknowledge when I bought fluid shorts from performance samples, and I seriously appreciate the honest transparency. They also provide naked unprocessed demos, which not everyone does. I feel like most of the audio demos in this industry are "misleading" in the sense that they all imply you're gonna be a super dope composer ace if you just buy this one little trick library. That has nothing to do with fraud. Fraud is when you use e.g. Hans Zimmer percussion as the percussion library for the demo track of your off-brand no-name cheapo percussion library instead of the actual library that you are selling. That is objective fraud: boldly claiming to be one thing when it really is another. 
That's not at all what @handz is talking about. I didn't fact check his examples, but those all sound believable to me. And fine too, after all it seems to be broadly accepted that everything that isn't marked as "naked out of the box sound" to be some kind of smoke and mirrors. When I see "naked" demo tracks, I go straight for those, because that's what I really care about. I've bought stuff like Action strings, thinking it's the hottest stuff since sliced bread, and I'm not so sure I'd have done that based on detailed walkthroughs and more importantly the more well trained ears I have now. I think the concept of the library is super heavily flawed and the issues it has weren't apparant at all to me from the demo tracks back then. I barely use it. I haven't used fluid shorts 1 much yet, but I expect to like it a lot more in spite of all the warnings I had to click through when buying it. 

Strictly speaking you could demo all percussion libraries by layering them over live orchestra recordings of the other sections to boost the overall demo tracks and it wouldn't be fraud, just misleading.

In advertisement, you don't sell products, you sell feelings. You don't sell "a fast car with poor fuel efficience", you sell "A feeling of freedom for the lone wolf on the road, with the wind in his hair and the radio playing his favorite song."


----------



## Katzenjammer

Has Zhao Shen’s buyers guide been posted in this thread? It hasn’t been updated during 2019 but still has some good information on selecting libraries.


He also has a thread here on the forum in relation to the blog. https://vi-control.net/community/threads/buyers-basic-guide-to-orchestral-sample-libraries.49450/

The blog is available here https://orchestralvst.wordpress.com/


----------



## handz

MartinH. said:


> Fraudulent and misleading are very different things imho. I think you two aren't even talking about the same thing, I don't see accusations being made. Misleading is par for the course for any advertisement. There are very few exceptions in the sample world. E.g. I was surprised how many notifications about flaws in the library and lack of support I had not only received, but had to actively acknowledge when I bought fluid shorts from performance samples, and I seriously appreciate the honest transparency. They also provide naked unprocessed demos, which not everyone does. I feel like most of the audio demos in this industry are "misleading" in the sense that they all imply you're gonna be a super dope composer ace if you just buy this one little trick library. That has nothing to do with fraud. Fraud is when you use e.g. Hans Zimmer percussion as the percussion library for the demo track of your off-brand no-name cheapo percussion library instead of the actual library that you are selling. That is objective fraud: boldly claiming to be one thing when it really is another.
> That's not at all what @handz is talking about. I didn't fact check his examples, but those all sound believable to me. And fine too, after all it seems to be broadly accepted that everything that isn't marked as "naked out of the box sound" to be some kind of smoke and mirrors. When I see "naked" demo tracks, I go straight for those, because that's what I really care about. I've bought stuff like Action strings, thinking it's the hottest stuff since sliced bread, and I'm not so sure I'd have done that based on detailed walkthroughs and more importantly the more well trained ears I have now. I think the concept of the library is super heavily flawed and the issues it has weren't apparant at all to me from the demo tracks back then. I barely use it. I haven't used fluid shorts 1 much yet, but I expect to like it a lot more in spite of all the warnings I had to click through when buying it.
> 
> Strictly speaking you could demo all percussion libraries by layering them over live orchestra recordings of the other sections to boost the overall demo tracks and it wouldn't be fraud, just misleading.
> 
> In advertisement, you don't sell products, you sell feelings. You don't sell "a fast car with poor fuel efficience", you sell "A feeling of freedom for the lone wolf on the road, with the wind in his hair and the radio playing his favorite song."




Very well written, and yes, I should have used "misleading" instead of "deceiving" (although there were some demos which would fit "deceiving" some years ago ) In a case of HO demos, I think they just did not think about it when making the HO website from the separate HO libs and put the demos from all 4 libraries there (small disclaimer would solve this) But if library for strings use strings also from a different library or even worse - live strings, this is to me on an edge of deceiving (and I also remember some stuff like this )

Advertisement is made to sell products not to make honest statements.
McDonalds burgers look way different in reality than in ads. 
Videogames before release footage is often made to look way better than the finished product (which is actually objectively deceiving but it is still happening) and so on... 

I still consider sample devs to be more of a cool guys doing a "niche" products but...


----------



## JohnG

handz said:


> Do you read my posts? How can a demo made in 2010 could be a HO only demo? The only way would be that they redid it with HO recently, which I highly doubt...



Well -- you're right about those old "HO" demos. They could not have HO winds or percussion, though in my own case I used EWQLSO winds and percussion just to be as fair as I could. Besides, I wrote a brass demo, not a HO demo. 

Maybe I'm doing the dumb internet thing and overreacting. Sorry if I am. 

I still don't think most companies are trying to mislead with their demos, but you have made fair points.

Thanks,

John


----------



## river angler

Aido94 said:


> I’m a aspiring composer still in high school looking to purchase my first orchestral library. I’ve saved up about 500 dollars over the past year and a half. In that time period I’ve been using free plug ins that Ive found, and Spitefire audios Labs. I’ve been looking into it and I’ve seen a lot of mixed responses. The two I’m interested in are Spitfires Albion 1 and Hollywood Orchestra Gold or Diamond. I really like spitefire as a company, but I’m not 100% keen on their Albion 1 library. After comparing it to some others I’ve found, while it sounds good, its not the best. I also don’t want to be subscribed to a cloud. I’d like to be able to own the library and really get to know it. The biggest draw for me though, with Albion 1, is the inclusion of the Kontakt player. Thank you all for your responses and advise


Check out Orchestral Tools Berlin Orchestra Inspire & Berlin Orchestra Inspire 2: they are bound to be on a bundled price very soon!
I was about to blow over £2000/3000 on either Spitfire's complete symphonic series or Orchestral Tools top Berlin Series this time last year but ended up purchasing OTs Inspire bundle at the equivelent of $399 and am not finding it lacking a year later for all my orchestral needs! You do have to purchase Kontakt but this can also be found on sale at this time of year too!


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