# Books/courses on theory, orchestration?



## tarantulis (Jan 11, 2016)

Hi all,

I need to learn some theory. And orchestration as well. I'm fairly new to both but I want to spend this year really immersing myself so that I can get better at composing.

What are some good books you recommend on these subjects? Are there any particularly good courses available online (I know Virtual Orchestration is one option)? For those of you who are composers, what method(s) of learning have you found most beneficial?

(I know VI has a list of recommended reads somewhere but the link in the pinned topic appears to be dead. If anyone has a live one please let me know.)


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## mickeyl (Jan 11, 2016)

See this thread here, might want to continue discussing there, if you find it appropriate: http://vi-control.net/community/threads/suggested-reading-for-orchestration-details.49823/


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## Lassi Tani (Jan 11, 2016)

I'm studying orchestration, and I'm reading Adler's The study of orchestration. The text in the book is not too heavy, and it has a lot of examples inside CDs (live recordings). I recommend the book!

Also I'm taking Cinematic Orchestration course at Thinkspace Online. The tutor that I have is really good; prompt and doesn't let me get away with bad orchestration or something that doesn't work. She explains clearly what works and why it works. The text was recently updated, which is good, and the videos of real players playing their instruments are very good. Btw they suggest to read Adler's book too.


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## ed buller (Jan 12, 2016)

Hi Tarantulis

Before I answer this could you give me an idea of what you are hoping to achieve and what sort of music you would like to be able to write.....music for film ?

and also....an assessment of your current depth of knowledge would help

best ed


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## tarantulis (Jan 12, 2016)

Thank you all for your input. That Thinkspace course looks especially interesting.

Ed, music for film is what I'm mostly going for. I don't have a lot of theory knowledge outside of the basic nuggets my piano teacher throws at me. Most of my background is electronic-based.

That might be a vague description, but the fact is I've been playing and writing music by ear most of my life, played several instruments when I was younger but didn't stick with any, and only just recently began writing orchestral stuff and learning to play the keys again. At 24, I know I have a lot of catching up to do, I know that--but I'm willing to put in the work. I really just want to get my hands on a fundamental text that will point me in the right direction and provide a basis of explanation that is most helpful from a composing perspective (rather than a performance- or academic-based one).


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## ed buller (Jan 12, 2016)

Ok

well start off with these: Give them a look and let me know what you think and we will take it from there;

http://www.brianmorrell.co.uk/book1/HOW_FILM_AND_TV_MUSIC_COMMUNICATE_VOL.1.pdf

http://www.brianmorrell.co.uk/book2/HOW_FILM_AND_TV_MUSIC_COMMUNICATE_VOL.2.pdf

http://www.brianmorrell.co.uk/book3/HOW_FILM_AND_TV_MUSIC_COMMUNICATE_VOL3.pdf

Best Ed


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## tarantulis (Jan 12, 2016)

ed buller said:


> Ok
> 
> well start off with these: Give them a look and let me know what you think and we will take it from there;
> 
> ...


This should keep me busy for a while. Thanks a ton.


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## Mike Marino (Jan 12, 2016)

You might consider some (or all) of the Masterclass videos put out by VI-C's own Mike Verta. Hours and hours of great information completely in the ballpark of information you're looking for. The classes are very inexpensive and worth far far more than price tag. He even has a couple of freebie classes (Free-For-All and Unleashed) that are available. I've purchased most of Mike's classes, have gone through the videos a number of times, and have zero complaints.

Here's the Masterclass weblink:
http://mikeverta.com/wordpress/category/masterclasses/


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## tonaliszt (Jan 12, 2016)

As Mike V, and Peter Alexander (Virtual Orchestration) would say, "you have to learn how to teach yourself." You can get any
of these courses, but understand, that, like, composition, it takes years to really understand. It's amazing it's still taught as a one semester class at universities.

Reading sheet music is a necessity in learning proper orchestration. Sorry.

Books are useful, but none of them really explain orchestration. They are all really instrumentation books. I like this one a lot (Shatzkin- Writing for orchestra), if you can find it for a reasonable price. The most intriguing (but not really useful) one I ever read, was Orchestral Combinations-Read. If you can find your way to a university library, you can probably find a lot of books there (or the complete works of Stockhausen- true story) This is good too :http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/77-Principles-of-Orchestration-On-line.

Here's just a quick list of how I would approach orchestration, if I was starting today.
1) Learn basics of each (solo) instrument. Basic range of each, strings on the string instruments, what is easy to play (ideomatic), and what is not. I guess this is where the book comes in. A good way to do this is to go through the individual parts for each instrument, and see the types of things (figures) that they play. This will help you know what types of things each instrument should (and be able to play). Look at how often they play, as the rests say as much as the notes. ie. if you don't see (in the scores) double basses play as many runs as the violins, don't expect them to be able to in your own orchestrations. Of scores to look at, try to avoid using really difficult works for this type of study, so avoid Strauss, Mahler, Ravel, ect... Tchaikovsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, JW, Dvorak... are easier to play, so are better for this type of study. Opera music is also good for this (Wagner Overtures!!), as the musicians have to play for very extended periods of time.

2) Learning combinations of instruments.
Now you start to look at the full scores. See how to chords are voiced, and how the different elements interact. Listen to a LOT of music, especially stuff that you can find the sheet music to. When you hear something you like, look it up, see what they are doing. Try to write it down, or at least keep a mental note of it. After you do this enough, the second you hear something like this (), you want to know how it's done, (and you know how to find out). Don't be afraid of directly lifting a texture from a existing piece into your own music. Eventually, you'll begin to see different versions of the same ideas, and will understand why and how changes were made. For example, this (), is very similar some of the textures in ET, but its a little different. You can see how certain types of textures are very common. You can actually see the evolution of the start of film music if you pay attention enough. This () turns into this () and this () into this (https://youtube/VwNpmpBC-t0?t=2m13s). (What can you be the first to "steal"?)

3) Feedback
Try to get feedback from different orchestrators and composers that are more advanced than you (Doesn't have to be by much). They will see areas that you are weak in and help you improve.

Then, just repeat steps 2 and 3, and go back to step 1 sometimes, for years and years (forever). It's a lot of work, but no one said it was easy. All it takes, for me, is to open up Respighi- Fountains of Rome, and I feel like a inadequate slob.

EDIT: Wow, that formatted poorly. Sorry everybody!!


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## tarantulis (Jan 13, 2016)

Thank you all for the input. This is immensely helpful.

I think my main problem at this point is feeling overwhelmed and not knowing quite where to start or how many things to juggle at once. I'm learning piano, which I think probably ranks first in importance at the moment---and I can study theory in the remaining few hours of the day...but then in my mind it's like "well shouldn't you keep composing as well? And studying orchestration? And reading those books about scoring?" Etc. Which of course, how do you make the time for all that. Which brings me to another point:

Is there anyone else here who started late? How the hell did you divide your time effectively while working a 9-to-5 that wasn't music-related?

For me, I devote every hour of my evenings and weekends but man, sometimes it just feels like there aren't enough hours in a day, you know.


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## JonFairhurst (Jan 14, 2016)

Some years ago, I took an online composition class from the late and great Peter Alexander. He focused on writing idiomatically for each instrument, which is especially important when using samples. For instance, a fanfare with trumpets sounds like trumpets and a strummed chord on a guitar sounds like a guitar. Conversely, a guitar fanfare or strummed brass chord will sound like synthesized music and would be difficult to play well.

We started with woodwinds. I think flute was first. Peter gave us a theme (flight, including a related poem) to define the intent. He also required some instrument-specific articulations (trills, runs). And away we went...

The most important things I learned were these: First, a solo instrument needs a strong melody to stand on its own. There's no backbeat or chord pad to give context. The melody needs to imply the beat and chords so the brain can fill it in. Second, well-composed melodies straddle the fence between stupidly simple and a random mess. Many of the students went random, as they like complicated music, but without the other instruments to support it, the result was "just a bunch of notes." Some junior musicians actually did better as the simpler melodies were more coherent, but they risked writing melodies so simple that they sound childish. True masters bring complexity and coherence together.

Overall, this helps us write parts "horizontally" in that each instrument plays a melody strong enough to stand on its own. Anybody who has played tenor sax or viola has had the experience of playing "vertically-written" parts, in that the inner melodies might complete the chord voicing, but they sound like random notes without flow.

So rather than learn to play, and learn theory, and learn to compose, and learn to orchestrate all at the same time, I recommend continuing to learn your instrument and theory and to simply add writing stand alone melodies for single-voice instruments. Don't worry about big compositions and orchestration for now as it will tempt you into vertical thinking and dilute your efforts.

Here's a side benefit of melodic writing: it will help you learn piano. For all instruments, I encourage learning to read music and play as written, to play along with existing recordings by ear, and to improvise. Put all three skills together and you can truly master your instrument. And what is improvisation? It's writing and playing melodies on the fly. Building your chops on non-real-time melody writing can help you find your voice and those melody snippets might just end up in your improvisation toolbox.

Best of luck!


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## tarantulis (Jan 14, 2016)

JonFairhurst said:


> Some years ago, I took an online composition class from the late and great Peter Alexander. He focused on writing idiomatically for each instrument, which is especially important when using samples. For instance, a fanfare with trumpets sounds like trumpets and a strummed chord on a guitar sounds like a guitar. Conversely, a guitar fanfare or strummed brass chord will sound like synthesized music and would be difficult to play well.
> 
> We started with woodwinds. I think flute was first. Peter gave us a theme (flight, including a related poem) to define the intent. He also required some instrument-specific articulations (trills, runs). And away we went...
> 
> ...



That's very interesting about the complexity-simplicity balance. And I'd say that the "vertical writing" problem is prevelant in most if not all of my orchestral stuff, and it makes for a cheap and unconvincing sound.

This might be a silly question, but how exactly does one learn to improvise? Or is it a skill I'll be able to start building only after a better understanding of the instrument and theory is established? I reach a point in my daily practice where it feels like all i'm doing is muscle-memorizing music so that i can play it. It feels vapidly performance-oriented and doesn't seem to improve my understanding of the instrument, the composition, or the theory behind it. Honestly the only part of my practice that feels beneficial in the long-term is the 30 min or so that I spend on scales. I remember now why I quit the first time...But hey if that's how it's done that's how I'll do it.


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## synergy543 (Jan 14, 2016)

This blog mentions some interesting and unusual harmony texts.
http://composerslog.blogspot.com/2011/07/best-little-known-harmony-books.html

While the above texts are interesting, I would suggest you have a look at the Heacox Lessons in Harmony (1931). If you're learning piano at the same time, playing these four-part harmonies will also help your reading and playing skills. This book goes into chromatic harmony as well so its not just rudimentary level and its quite easy to follow (which is why I recommend it).

https://archive.org/details/lessonsinharmony00heac

Heacox also wrote Project Lessons in Orchestration which has an interesting approach by comparing piano versions to orchestrated versions and discusses the various issues related to transcribing. This book was the basis for Wagner's Orchestration and later Peter Alexander's Orchestration. You'll have to find a hard copy though.

Also, if you can afford it, I highly recommend Alain Mayrands Composer Training Module 1 (which is only available for a short time) as it gives some excellent hands-on training and makes you think about new approaches to studying and applying harmony. His visual walk-through approach will really get you up and running quickly.

http://vi-control.net/community/thr...ugh-direct-purchase.45740/page-2#post-3928233

And lastly, Norman Ludwin offers an excellent series of very cost-effective books on orchestration and composition which have a unique feature of highlighted commentary on scores throughout each book. These really inspires a new approach to analysing and studying scores.

http://www.musicnewapproach.com/


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## JonFairhurst (Jan 14, 2016)

How to learn to improvise? That's not silly at all.

First, I'd choose a style that works well, such as jazz, rock or blues, but any "folk based" music can work. (By folk-based, I mean stuff that people play and pass on without writing it down. That leads to music built with predictable sections (Intro, verse, chorus, bridge...), rather than stuff that might not ever repeat a bar.) Next, listen for idiomatic phrases, such a stretching a 4 to a 5 and then playing the 7th as a guitar melody. Play along with this stuff by ear. Learn some of the licks. Then start pasting them together. Pretty soon, you intuitively predict how many beats there are between now and the down beat and you can play just enough notes from here to there to get to the root on time.

Blues might be the best place to start. The blues scale in G is G, Bb, C, (Db), D, F G. (The Db is the "blue note" that makes this more than just a pentatonic scale. It's like tobasco sauce. Use it carefully and in the right places.) First, learn to play up and down the scale. Next learn how to jump around a bit. Then play it along with some blues.

Start with pieces with few (if any) chord changes and don't worry about the chords. Once you get so you can jam, start thinking about the underlying chords and which notes you want to land on to support those chords. You can add chord arpeggios to your melodies to really ride the chords. To add a jazz element, find backing songs that use chords that go outside of your primary scale. Find the accidentals and figure out the scales and arpeggios that work with those chords. After a while, you'll be jamming around the circle of fifths. But first, start with few, simple chords that you can just jam over without worrying about them.

There are some "learn to improvise" products out there that include stripped down backing tracks that have simple beats, bass lines, and chords, but I've found them to be uninspiring. They're often like dead, midi tracks that just repeat. I think it's better to jam over real songs, where you hear the other melodies, dynamics, moods, etc. It forces the player to get used to making a mess of the sound, and that's a good thing. Treat it more like finger painting than coloring within thick lines. Listen to the other melodies, steal them, conflict with them, and play around. By contrast, those sterile improv background tracks don't provide ideas or inspirations, and they leave the player too exposed. They push the musician into playing just as safe and sterile as the backing, and that's not what you want.

Of course, one also needs to work the technical craft by playing scales and melodies, turning off the music to find out how to play that riff in your head, then turning the music back on to see if you can make it fit with the song.

Those are my thoughts. Overall, the most important things are to listen carefully and play freely, and be comfortable with chaos.

For an example check out this video, especially at 3:00 on Part 1. Les Paul sometimes challenges himself by playing some random crap and then he figures out how to rescue it by ending up on the right note or chord. Again, there's that balance of chaos and order. Enjoy!

Part 1

Part 2


Enjoy!


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## Morodiene (Jan 14, 2016)

tarantulis said:


> Thank you all for the input. This is immensely helpful.
> 
> I think my main problem at this point is feeling overwhelmed and not knowing quite where to start or how many things to juggle at once. I'm learning piano, which I think probably ranks first in importance at the moment---and I can study theory in the remaining few hours of the day...but then in my mind it's like "well shouldn't you keep composing as well? And studying orchestration? And reading those books about scoring?" Etc. Which of course, how do you make the time for all that. Which brings me to another point:
> 
> ...


Starting late...you mean, like when you're 43? Ya. How do I divide my time? I stay up late and get up early, and spend every waking moment trying to learn. I bring manuals with me to rehearsal in case we have some time sitting around, or to lessons in case a student doesn't show.

Anyways, I feel your pain. I really do. While I'm no longer trying to learn an instrument, it doesn't mean I have more time. But every little chunk I do helps. Maybe set small goals for yourself: read one chapter in your DAW manual, create a solo piece using this VST, something like that. Take things one little teeny step at a time.

As far as orchestration, I'm still learning, but the best thing my teacher who told me when I asked him for books on orchestration is the best thing he did was spend some time with musicians. If you are near a university or have access to musicians in a community orchestra, see if they will spend an hour with you (you can pay students with a meal, I'm sure) and give them a sample of music to play that you've written. Ask them lots of questions about the different sounds they can play for you. I did this once with a violinist and I learned a lot. Listen to the different colors of the instrument throughout their range. Ask them what's the worst music to play like, what's the best to play. Give them a sample of something you've written to sight read and see how well they do. They may blame themselves for being a poor sightreader, but it may also be a good indication that you've written something not idiomatic for the instrument.

One thing that I undervalued was the part-writing that I learned in my college theory classes. You know, good voice-leading and all that. Well, it's really important in writing orchestral scores. If you are able to take a theory course or two online, that would really be helpful. I'm not sure what Coursera offers along those lines as I paid my theory dues may moons ago, but for free courses that might be a good place to start.

By the way, my teacher had told me what the "sweet spot" is for each instrument in the orchestra - ranges within your composition in that will (mostly) guarantee the instrument will sound the best. Sure, you can write something like Rite of Spring for a bassoonist, but most bassoonists aren't virtuosos and most likely don't keep their instruments in good repair. So best to write things in a range where you (and they) more likely to sound good. If you're interested I'd be happy to share this info.


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## Mundano (Jan 14, 2016)

for books resources about orchestration look at scribd.com , there are some freebies!


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## ed buller (Jan 15, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> By the way, my teacher had told me what the "sweet spot" is for each instrument in the orchestra - ranges within your composition in that will (mostly) guarantee the instrument will sound the best. Sure, you can write something like Rite of Spring for a bassoonist, but most bassoonists aren't virtuosos and most likely don't keep their instruments in good repair. So best to write things in a range where you (and they) more likely to sound good. If you're interested I'd be happy to share this info.



Oh please share....

e


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## Morodiene (Jan 15, 2016)

OK, now I have the info in front of me. Keep in mind that the actual ranges of the instruments exceeds this.

Flute: F4-G6
Oboe: D4-C6, or keep within the staff
Clarinet (B-flat): D3-G5
Bassoon: E-flat 2-F4, or keep within staff
Trumpets (1st): D4-B-flat5
Trumpets (2nds): A-flat3-F5
Horns (1/3): B-flat3-C5
Horns (2/4): E-flat3-G4
Trombones: A2-F4
Tubas: B-flat1-C3

I'm not sure why I don't have anything for strings. Maybe they're in general less limited, or perhaps I wasn't messing them up too badly in my compositions


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## Lassi Tani (Jan 15, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> OK, now I have the info in front of me. Keep in mind that the actual ranges of the instruments exceeds this.
> 
> Flute: F4-G6
> Oboe: D4-C6, or keep within the staff
> ...



A string player would know better than I, but I think strings are less limited. Perhaps when a string player would play all on G string and very high, which means the hand on strings comes very close to the bridge, which might be straining, when done long time. And of course huge jumps over strings. So the limits are not on the range, but how hard the part is for a player. But I'm not an expert.


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## Morodiene (Jan 15, 2016)

sekkosiki said:


> A string player would know better than I, but I think strings are less limited. Perhaps when a string player would play all on G string and very high, which means the hand on strings comes very close to the bridge, which might be straining, when done long time. And of course huge jumps over strings. So the limits are not on the range, but how hard the part is for a player. But I'm not an expert.


Right, and of course there are other things to consider when writing for instruments besides range, like what kind of things are idiomatic for them, which keys are easier/harder, and the tonal quality that comes out depending on range and volume.


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## ed buller (Jan 15, 2016)

hmmm...very interesting. It's quite Limiting but that's probably a good idea. Norman Ludwin refers to " a power range" I did ask him if he could write this out...but he's very busy. 

So I guess this is more a " you can't go wrong and it will sound lovely ! " list.....No bad thing to have....

Many Thanks

e


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## Morodiene (Jan 15, 2016)

ed buller said:


> hmmm...very interesting. It's quite Limiting but that's probably a good idea. Norman Ludwin refers to " a power range" I did ask him if he could write this out...but he's very busy.
> 
> So I guess this is more a " you can't go wrong and it will sound lovely ! " list.....No bad thing to have....
> 
> ...


Right, and if you never plan to have a real orchestra play, or if you do plan but they are excellent musicians, then of course you can go outside of this. And if the key you happen to be is forces you to go slightly outside of it, it shouldn't be an issue either (I think).


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## JonFairhurst (Jan 15, 2016)

I've taken up violin and have been playing with a community orchestra for about a year. I find that the sweet spot range for violin varies greatly by instrument and player. 

In general, I play as low (away from the bridge) as possible to get the best tone on my ~$1,000 instrument. You can do quite a bit in first position while reaching for higher notes on the E-string alone. In addition, this is comfortable for beginning and intermediate students. Of course, when the melody has a series of high notes, one plays at higher positions, mainly on the A and E-strings. The one place where I play higher position on lower strings is the initial phrase of Hungarian Dance #5, which allows more vibrato than the same note on a higher string at a lower position.

And no, I don't play it nearly this fast nor as well!


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## AllanH (Jan 15, 2016)

I can certainly share how I approach orchestration. I've found the following two books interesting and valuable

Principles of Orchestration by Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov
Guide to the Practical Study of Harmony by Peter Ilyitch Tchaikovsky
They are about $15 each at Amazon so very inexpensive.

I happen to be a big fan of Tchaikovsky and so I download the scores from http://imslp.org/
and listen along. I've learned a lot from seeing and hearing his music performed.

Finally, and for me this was a breakthrough, I now play all my parts in on the keyboard.
If (or when) I "overthink" orchestration instead of trying to get the sound I like, it is simply not as good. 

I still run into DAW and mixing challenges that at times require re-orchestration, but I consider that secondary.

Hope this helps.

Allan


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## skyy38 (Feb 1, 2016)

AllanH said:


> I can certainly share how I approach orchestration. I've found the following two books interesting and valuable
> 
> Principles of Orchestration by Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov
> Guide to the Practical Study of Harmony by Peter Ilyitch Tchaikovsky
> ...




http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/77-Principles-of-Orchestration-Online


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## tarantulis (Feb 2, 2016)

Thank you all for the input. Here's an update:

I got Adler's book on orchestration and am currently working my way through that. I also purchased Principles of Orchestration and A Guide to the Practical Study of Harmony, as well as a few other books on counterpoint and score study. I watched Verta's video on composition and got a lot out of that, so I downloaded a few more and added them to my queue. I'm about halfway through Visual Orchestration 2, and Alain was kind enough to get me set up with the Composer Module 1 course, which I'll be starting thereafter. In addition, I found some cool tutorials on jazz improvisation which will hopefully get me acquainted with risk.

Just wanted everyone to know that I did take your suggestions to heart. Thanks again


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## synergy543 (Feb 2, 2016)

Glad to hear you've got some good material to start with. Keep us informed on how the progress goes and share some of the exercises you working on. You know, its not good enough to just buy the books and courses. And since you chose Rimsky-Korsakov, you might find it interesting to read his biography while you're studying to see how little he knew when he started and how he progressed. I found it quite fun and inspiring. For example, when his pals discovered he wasn't so good at the piano and made fun of him, that inspired him to practice in secret until he got very good at playing the Chopin Etudes (answering part of your question on skills a composer needs on his instrument). And he didn't know squat about harmony, so basically he learned by writing and eventually wrote a book on harmony himself. At least for me, these little things were fun to learn about while studying.


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## ed buller (Feb 14, 2016)

rimsky's harmony book is the best imho. very quick and easy to read. Even though he was dreadfully conservative and a bit of a luddite when it came to the more adventurous music at the turn of the century he did get Stravinsky started !. 
e


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## Paul T McGraw (Feb 17, 2016)

I just found this thread. It is really inspirational and thrilling to see so many people trying to help others. I don't think there is any other virtual community on the web as friendly, helpful and knowledgeable about their subject as the folks here at VI. All those who posted helpful advice, thank you, and give yourselves a pat on the back.


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## Suganthan (Feb 17, 2016)

If you guys want good old stuff - check out archive.org, make use of the search button.
They are century old, some of them are good read.


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## synergy543 (Feb 17, 2016)

Suganthan said:


> If you guys want good old stuff - check out archive.org, make use of the search button.
> They are century old, some of them are good read.


Good suggestion. However, it helps to know what to look for. Its a bit like searching for that one special golden needle in a haystack.
Also, many of these are more than just a "read". Many of the older books were quite rigorous in their lessons and without going through these steps, you're likely to miss most of the benefit of the book.
Here's one absolutely golden gem:
https://archive.org/details/melodyharmonytre00macpuoft

Also, its good to note that there are also many excellent older music books which are not in the archives nor in publication and these can only be found as used books. Some excellent example are Wagner's Orchestration, Arthur A. Wedge (Julliard theory teacher) Applied Harmony I-II, William Lovelock Harmony 1-3, Roger Sessions Harmonic Practice, and many others. Its a shame that such useful material gets hidden and lost in the cracks of history (or under the well-intended but often misguided copyright protection laws).


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## ed buller (Feb 18, 2016)

those are great books. I actually find older books more useful TBH. I recently got boxes of books out of storage left to me by my father. Most dating from the early 30's . And they are very readable and in the case of Tovey 
http://www.donaldtovey.com/
..very humorous too.

I would also suggest Alain's Courses. http://scoreclub.net/all-courses/

The first one is now back. They are both excellent and you will learn a lot. 

e


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